# Boer goat question



## RockyToggRanch (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm thinking of getting some boer goats. What is this whole percentage thing? can someone please explain? I feel dumb, but I really don't know..


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## ksalvagno (Feb 6, 2010)

There are a lot of Boer goats out there that aren't full blooded Boers. They are mixed with something and it is usually Nubian. So that is where the percentage comes in. If someone is saying it is a percentage Boer they should be able to tell you want the percentages are. Like 75% Boer, 25% Nubian.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 6, 2010)

What is a good percentage and what is just ..well.. a mix?


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## ksalvagno (Feb 6, 2010)

Unfortunately, that I don't know. I guess it would depend on if you are looking for particular characteristics for personal meat/dairy or if you are looking for registered stock that you would do more with.

Roll Farm would be a good one to talk to. She has Boers and she has all kinds of percentage Boers including 100%. Here is her website. http://www.rollfarms.com/

I think ()relics has Boers too but she doesn't have a website.  You could probably PM her.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 6, 2010)

okay...thanks


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## ()relics (Feb 6, 2010)

Yes _He_ does have afew boer goats.....So, a full blood boer is a pure boer that's blood carries all the way back to South Africa with nothing but pure full blood...a percentage is an animal that at one time or another has been crossed with another breed of goat...Here is the catcher You ALWAYS need to use a full blood billy no matter what you do...
........SO for example I have  some percentage does that I use for commercial animals...They are 88%...their dams were 75% bred to a full blood billy...their granddams were 50%;  alpine does bred to a fullblood billy....Now their kids this season are 94% at which time they are considered purebred, still not Fullblood and never to be fullblood...All the does are registered while all the billies are wethered for market _Because_ percentage billies are not breeders, only fullblood billies...So if you want to start a percentage/fullblood/purebred herd get yourself the best Fullblood billy you can afford, breed him to anything,tog,alpine,myo,grade, whatever doe you have and you will be able to register their girl offspring as 50% boers, you continue to grade up from there every year...Or buy some percentage does...but always, always a fullblood billy.....


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 6, 2010)

OMgoodness..that makes sense! Thank you for spelling it out. The buck I was looking at is 75%...so I guess I'll pass. I will keep looking though  
Thanks again. 
Cindy


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## Roll farms (Feb 6, 2010)

Technically you *can* use a purebred buck (96% or higher) if you belong to USBGA (not sure about the other associations...) but most folks who breed boers, don't.

It's just not the common practice....I dunno why.  

My first Boer buck was an unregistered, black-headed  Boer x Spanish who sired nice kids.  I let myself get talked into getting rid of him and buying a papered buck who gave me scrawny little kids, half of which died soon after birth.  
I was better off w/ live unregistered kids than I was dead fancy- pedigreed kids.

I've had some nice little pb bucklings I've been tempted to keep and use but the general consensus is to 'breed up' as relics said.
However...if I had a spotted pb buckling born, I probably WOULD keep / use him.  To each his own.

I think folks should use the best bucks (for what they're breeding for) that they can afford, because a buck has influence on EVERY kid born...it's just that papers / pedigree don't always mean "best".

If I were breeding for commercial / meat kids that I'd never show or sell for show, I wouldn't spend a ton of money on papered buck, I'd concentrate on finding a buck who produces meaty kids who do well w/ little input.

Since I sell some kids to show, some for market, and some for pets, I keep a fullblood buck and use him on all different % levels of does, from dairy on up to fullblood.  

My point is, if you're breeding boers to sell for meat / market and not for show, and that 75% unregistered buck is producing big, meaty kids, there's no reason NOT to get him.  But if you do want to breed for shows or to sell the kids as show babies, then you'd need to start w/ a registered buck.

Keep in mind that bucks (and does) can't read their papers / understand what percentage they are...papers are not necessarily a guarantee that they're 'good'.

Just MHO... Everyone has different goals w/ their goats and should do what works for them.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 7, 2010)

Very good points and helpful..thank you.


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## ()relics (Feb 7, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> It's just not the common practice....I dunno why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you ever have an animal registered with the USBGA and you decide to also register it with the ABGA you will very soon find out why you should only use a fullblood billy... besides in their percentage calculator even the USBGA states always use a fullblood billy... USBGA members may be able to find the paper in one of their packets, its a percentage calculator with a breeding chart printed on the lower half of the page... I'm going  to try and find a link  that statement on-line...
.....That said....I completely agree about the quality of the billy sometimes not showing up in the papers...Left unsaid by me earlier: most of the _Really good_ wethers I raise and sell  are from my percentage does...So your herd goal is a determining factor in your foundation selection...I still would use a full blood billy just in case you decide you are going to switch directions later....At least all your replacement stock wil be registerable...If that makes sense....remember a percentage boer isn't a mutt but rather a hybrid, taking the best of 2 breeds and making a superior animal.
.....I think Roll farms has a fullblood billy you could talk her out of...might be a good place to start...I have a doeling from him and she is pretty special....
   I could go on but instead will let it go....Ask for more if you want to submit yourself to the full blown sermon.......


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## ksalvagno (Feb 7, 2010)

Sorry Relics! :/


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## ()relics (Feb 7, 2010)

my friends call me Dan...feel free to also.


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## Roll farms (Feb 7, 2010)

So it's not Danielle?

*runs away*


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 7, 2010)

These are local and very pretty 
lindsayacresboergoats.net


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 8, 2010)

RockyToggRanch said:
			
		

> These are local and very pretty
> lindsayacresboergoats.net


I am thinking about buying one of their bred does. I love the way their bucks look 

I can't decide though...any input?


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## ksalvagno (Feb 8, 2010)

They all look nice. Are you strictly looking for meat or do you want to show or what do you want to do with the Boers. I think that would help your decision. I think it is always good to buy from a local breeder to get support.

I know I couldn't give you a definite opinion since it makes such a difference to see them in person. I also don't know exactly what to look for in a Boer.

It makes a difference to me if the farm is clean and the animals obviously look healthy. Do they vaccinate and worm? I wouldn't want to bring home a goat that is loaded with parasites.

I bought a Boer doe with a doeling nursing on her but it is strictly for personal meat. We will breed the  girls and put their offspring in the freezer. While she is very healthy and is negative for CAE, CL and Johnnes, she has poor udder attachment and a few other flaws. Her doeling has 4 teats. While I know the 4 teats are acceptable in Boers, I don't like it. So the Boer that I bought will work for my purposes but I would never breed her to further a Boer line, she just doesn't have the quality.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 8, 2010)

I was just looking at that site and the pedigree information for "The Hulk"...

The sire's sire and sire's dam had the same daddy -- Ryal's Topbrass..  That would make Hulks paternal grandparents half brother/sister to one another.

Then, in the dam's pedigree lines, you can see that Ryal's Topbrass was also the dam's grandsire.

Some people would say "Awesome!"

I would say YIKES.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I was just looking at that site and the pedigree information for "The Hulk"...
> 
> The sire's sire and sire's dam had the same daddy -- Ryal's Topbrass..  That would make Hulks paternal grandparents half brother/sister to one another.
> 
> ...


Please explain the difference of opinion (awesome /yikes). I still don't understand all of the different explainations I've heard regarding "inbreeding" or  "line breeding".  

I want to get it  I mean understand it...


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## cmjust0 (Feb 8, 2010)

The difference is my opinion vs. someone else's opinion.  Some folks are fine with linebreeding, but it gives me the heebs.  Then again, I'm "weird" and actually prefer hybrids to purebreds.

As to the difference between "linebreeding" and "inbreeding," what I've always heard is that you call it "linebreeding" when it goes well, and "inbreeding" when it doesn't.



Hopefully, someone else can chime in with a better explanation.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> The difference is my opinion vs. someone else's opinion.  Some folks are fine with linebreeding, but it gives me the heebs.  Then again, I'm "weird" and actually prefer hybrids to purebreds.
> 
> As to the difference between "linebreeding" and "inbreeding," what I've always heard is that you call it "linebreeding" when it goes well, and "inbreeding" when it doesn't.
> 
> ...


gotcha


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## Roll farms (Feb 8, 2010)

Well, here's my take on line / inbreeding.

I will breed father to daughter b/c the daughter will have her dam's different genetic makeup to help 'water down' the inbreeding.
I would NOT breed the offspring from those two back to either parent, that would make them parents and grandparents to the next offspring.

I will breed half siblings, again b/c they have the other parent's genes added to the mix.
I would NOT breed their offspring back to either parent b/c that's also their aunt / uncle as well as parent....too much similar blood at that point.

I would NOT breed litter-mate siblings (same parents) because there isn't enough different genetic back ground.

Here is a line breeding I've planned for next year, Doodlebug will be bred back to her sire, Chaos.   These are Nubians, but the concept is the same regardless of breed.

J2K CAPRAIO CONQUEST OF CHAOS (10.4% inbred)
 x ROLL FARMS DOODLE BUG - (1.4% inbred)
offspring will be
*32.04% Inbred *


Top 10 Individual Contributors to Inbreeding %

Registered Name Reg # Inbreeding % 
J2K CAPRAIO CONQUEST OF CHAOS N001454061 12.50 
CHATEAU BRIANT'S HERO CONQUEST N001295855 3.80 
J2K CAPRAIO CHATTANOOGIE N001333549 3.31 
AMBERWOOD VIKING'S HERO N000561590 1.94 
HALLCIENDA FROSTY MARVIN N000181594 1.88 
J2K ZOE'S COPPER N001260267 0.83 
CHATEAU BRIANT'S GLORIANE N001054986 0.80 
KISMET SINATRA N001297078 0.78 
AMBERWOOD'S FROSTY VALENTINE N000422255 0.58 
WEE 3 R VIKING SUN N000500844 0.43 

I will NOT breed the offspring from these two back to either parent, although some breeders take it further.  Around 30-35% is as 'inbred' as I'll go.

AND...if they're kids turn out to be bow legged freaks, I'll call it inbreeding....


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## ()relics (Feb 8, 2010)

I knew I should have paid more attention in school durring biology class.....I have no idea how to figure any of this out...thats is why I have to keep soooo many different billies...I never breed anything that is remotely related to each other...just because I'm never sure what I can and can't breed....So I don't...I keep 1 billy with every group of does and phase the billy out when I have too many does that I _can't_ breed to him.....somewhere I saw a chart one time something to do with drawing triangles  in the pedigrees of the sire and dam of a potential kid....kind of vague beyond that


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 8, 2010)

Flashback to my grandma trying to explain my " 2nd cousin once returned." yikes.


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## Roll farms (Feb 8, 2010)

It is confusing, isn't it?  

That "Frosty Marvin" listed in the contributors list is estimated to be related to 40% of all registered Nubians today, his frozen semen was used EVERYWHERE....He's got over 500 kids registered and he died in 1982.... and there are still kids being registered to him b/c of AI.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 8, 2010)

That's what I call a "frosty marvin".....


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## countrywife (Feb 9, 2010)

Ya'll are too cute.

My take on the billy- buy the best one you can afford, but don't get caught up in all the hype. When we started this 7 years ago, a $1,000.00 boar buck was not unheard of. Most I ever paid was $250.00, and he gave me nothing. Had a billy last year that I got one kid off of, and then he died. Remember, these things are animals, and animals die, for a variety of reasons. So, if you want to go the thousands of dollars for a line way, go right ahead, but realize, that its not always about how much you pay for something. Some of the best girls I ever got I paid 75.00 each for, from a sweet old man who sold goats. 5 years later and they still produce gorgeous kids for me.

As far as line breeding - whatever you want is fine. I prefer to change my buck every year or two, just to be safe. But I also don't seperate my bucks, I leave them in the field all year. Its more of a hobby for us than a business. So, before you decide anything, like another poster said, decide what your ultimate goal is, then the rest will fall into line.

On a side note, my son's middle name is Daniel, to which his sister irritates him endlessly by calling him Danielle. Oh yea, he deserves it, she is the little sister.


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## Mugen (Feb 9, 2010)

Most of what you've said is correct. My el cheapo billy works his magic like a champ.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 10, 2010)

Is there any reason I shouldn't keep a boer buck with my togg buck?


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 10, 2010)

Okay...dilema..
I can buy this registered doe who is bred to the hulk buck....or...3 unregistered does (one is 100% 2 are 50%) AND a 75% buck, for the same price...


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## ()relics (Feb 10, 2010)

Herd goal???? without paper work the unregistered animals are considered grade does and the billy should have been wethered...JMO...naturally your decision should be based on the animals taken singly not as a "package deal"....No one will tell you to buy anything, registered/unregistered, without a "hands on" session with each animal...You have to first have a herd goal in place then go to look at only animals that fit into your plan...When you look at a prospective animal look at its structure,condition,moblility,coat,teeth,udder,basically the entire animal, with not only your eyes but with your hands as well...Buy the best animal you can afford that fits into your plan...I wouldn't suggest buying a group of does because someone told you its a good deal...sounds like an auction barn...Important: ask the owner to look at any records he may have about pertaining to the particular animal, verbal records aren't too believable, ask if he owns the dam/sire/siblings of the animal....an honest seller will tell you what he has and show you what you ask for....So what's your herd goal?


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## countrywife (Feb 10, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Herd goal???? without paper work the unregistered animals are considered grade does and the billy should have been wethered...JMO...naturally your decision should be based on the animals taken singly not as a "package deal"....No one will tell you to buy anything, registered/unregistered, without a "hands on" session with each animal...You have to first have a herd goal in place then go to look at only animals that fit into your plan...When you look at a prospective animal look at its structure,condition,moblility,coat,teeth,udder,basically the entire animal, with not only your eyes but with your hands as well...Buy the best animal you can afford that fits into your plan...I wouldn't suggest buying a group of does because someone told you its a good deal...sounds like an auction barn...Important: ask the owner to look at any records he may have about pertaining to the particular animal, verbal records aren't too believable, ask if he owns the dam/sire/siblings of the animal....an honest seller will tell you what he has and show you what you ask for....So what's your herd goal?


What he said. You have to know what you want to do with them in the future. I sell a few here and there, but we keep the herd for brush removal and upkeep on the farm- without them it gets too overgrown too fast. I dont show or sell to the highest bidder, so papers and percentage mean not so much to me. But you have to know what your goal in before you can know what to buy.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 10, 2010)

Hmm..my goal. I have my toggs for dairy. They're registered and from very good show stock. I do not show, but may get into it in the future. 
I have 60 acres of woodlands. I don't necessarily need them for clearing, but they do take care of some of the brambles at the edge of the woods.
Initially I thought that we would just butcher the bucklings we get from the toggs. However, I seem to have been smitten by the "boer bug". I love the way they look. 
I read that NY has the largest demand for goat meat. I don't intend to do anthing large scale, but there seems to be an outlet for any "extras". I do love being as self sufficient as possible.

Soo, my goal...I don't want more animals than I can personally bond with. I am the sole caregiver of all of my animals, so I don't want more than I can take care of (physically and monetarily). I also work full time outside the home.

soo, my goal? I have no freaking clue. Sheesh. Perhaps I'll admire the boers at the fair and stick with my toggs...


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## ksalvagno (Feb 10, 2010)

If you really just like the Boers and are just looking for personal meat, why not get one or two of the unregistered and breed them to your Togg? If you don't want or need to further their line, then it really doesn't matter.

I am going to breed my Boer does to my Nigerian buck. While most people wouldn't call this ideal, I don't want to take care of or deal with a Boer buck and I don't want to pay for buck services and risk my girls picking up a disease. Since the meat will only be for personal use and there is only 2 of us, I don't have to have the full blooded Boer. I'm at least trying it and see what happens.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 10, 2010)

There are only two of us here as well. Will I get enough meat from togg "extras" to suffice? My hubby also hunts deer. (3 bucks this yr)


Those boers are so pretty.... I may not be able to resist the bred doe. 

I don't really want to mix them with togg. I like my toggs just the way they are. I'm weird I guess.


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## Roll farms (Feb 10, 2010)

Pssst....

I bred one of our Toggs to a boer this year, and my gawd were those kids ugly.....

I totally did NOT just say that in public, mmkay???


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## ksalvagno (Feb 10, 2010)

I was just thinking to breed them and the offspring strictly be for meat. Then you could have your Boer and have just one Boer and not worry about a buck. I would think the Toggs would give you enough meat but I don't own any so I really don't know.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 10, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Pssst....
> 
> I bred one of our Toggs to a boer this year, and my gawd were those kids ugly.....
> 
> I totally did NOT just say that in public, mmkay???


That's what I'd be afraid of...lol.
I love my toggs and cringe when I see mixed..just me. I feel the need to keep the breed pure... mine anyway.

I can't imagine an ugly kid...but I'll take your word for it.


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## Roll farms (Feb 10, 2010)

I posted pics of them when they were born...

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3247

The only crosses I like the looks of tend to be swiss to swiss or Boer to Nub.  Airplane ears make me sad....


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## Mugen (Feb 10, 2010)

This forum is wonderful! Very informative! That being said,  can I let my goats roam free in the woodland area? There's plenty of shrubs, grass, and saplings for them to eat. Is that a good or bad idea? Thanks much! 

Regards,

Mugen


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## Roll farms (Feb 10, 2010)

If there are coyotes or dogs running loose, it's a very bad idea, IMHO.


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## RockyToggRanch (Feb 11, 2010)

I let mine freerange while I watch them. Although they love to run along the top of the wood pile and knock down logs. This does not make DH a happy camper.

They would prefer to be on the porch, in the garden, in the truck bed, on the picnic table....and so on.  Even with unlimited woods and brush to munch...go figure.


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