# How Many Chances?



## helmstead (Sep 18, 2009)

I have bred my Californian doe twice - to different bucks - and she hasn't kindled either time.

How many chances should she get before I cull her?


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## trestlecreek (Sep 18, 2009)

Well, that depends on who you ask!
Many variables come into play with rabbit breeding. 
Sterile males in temps over 85 degrees, lack of length of daylight, bucks with split penis's, does whom will not ovulate with one copulation, over weight does, older does, hateful does , and the list goes on.
I would give a doe 2 chances in the spring before I gave up on her in a rigorous breeding plan.
I personally will give certain does several tries before I eliminate her. I have found that most times, it is owner error.  I breed at strange times of the year(like now) or with older does(over 2 1/2) and miracles will not happen on the first try in those cases,...LOL. I am very patient with my does and I always do end up with kits, but sometimes it takes a few breedings!!
Younger brood does bred in the spring generally have a higher rate of taking.


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## ()relics (Sep 18, 2009)

I would be patient too...When I first started breeding rabbits, I had quite a few misses...I too thought that my male was sterile or my female couldn't gestate a litter....I was wrong...They were both fine but just were particular about certain things.  Once you figure out what type of situation they like it will be automatic and you will know when they are bred....
  In another thread I  follow my doe Misty as she prepares to kindle....She was one of my problem does...I found that she would not breed with a certain buck in a certain cage...If she wasn't kept in "her" hutch to kindle, instead of moving her inside as I do with the rest of the does, she would lose the whole litter...So now I keep her in "her" hutch and breed her to only 1 buck in a special cage.....She is now my best show quality producer and as you can read in the other thread, she kindled 4 times this year.  I could get 1 more but I'm going to give her a break and set her up for a march kindle....


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## trestlecreek (Sep 20, 2009)

Kate, how old is your doe and buck and has your doe had a successful litter?


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## helmstead (Sep 20, 2009)

They are both coming up on a year old, and no, I've had them since they were little, so neither has bred.

The idea here is meat production, not show bunnies...they are worth nothing to me if they can't produce...they're not even tame enough to spay/neuter and call pets.  So, we need to see some action or they're headed to freezer camp and we'll start over.

The man we bought them from breeds year round, no problem.  I can't imagine they wouldn't breed this time of year!  Everything else is in rut LOL.  I'll give them one more chance, I guess.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 20, 2009)

Well, rabbits do not go into rut like goats do,...spring is the target time of year for breeding...
Yes, you can get them to breed year round, but if your looking at odds, the best time is in the spring.
Yes, for meat and production, I would have a handful of does to up the odds....


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## currycomb (Sep 20, 2009)

sounds crazy, but hang a light bulb near your rabbits, immitates lengthing days, so they breed better


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## trestlecreek (Sep 20, 2009)

Sounds like something that would be worth a try!!!


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## chinbunny1 (Oct 3, 2009)

If they are just under ayear they may not be ready yet. Give them a little more time. they should be producing babies like crazy by next spring.


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## Beekissed (Oct 3, 2009)

If your cages are not close, you might put them side by side.  Sometimes this seems to bring a doe in heat, sort of like a teaser stallion. 

Also, if she is a new, young doe, she may not breed as readily as older doe.  They tend to be more flighty and run away from the buck more.  My older does would just squat, lift a tail and get it over with.

I'd give her several tries with just one buck and stick around to witness the dirty deed.  I've also had does who were too dominant in with a buck and they never actually got to do the do because she would just run away or flip him off of her.  I've actually held does down for the breeding when this happens.  Successful kindling from this method but not my fave thing to do on a Sat. morn.  

I agree....if they don't produce, they aren't good for much but the stewpot.  

I'd also get an extra doe and keep them on a breeding rotation.  The more litters they have, the bigger and better the litters you will get.  Unlike other animals, rabbits produce better when they are bred more often than if they are only bred a couple of times a year.


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## houndit (Oct 3, 2009)

I quit Californians and NewZealands because that is what I got most of the time.  It drove me crazy.  I have these little mutts now and they are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better.  I usially give my does 3 chances if they are not cooperative and then they will go.  I once was told that if you do not breed a doe when she is young, it is 6 months for the medium rabbits it might be more for the large ones, that she will never kindle.  I thought that sounded weird.  I was given a New Zealand doe that was a year old and had never been bred.  She never kindled her entire life.  I bought a Satin doe that was 10 or 12 months, I can not remember and had not been bred.  She never kindled either.  I do not know why but it has been that way for me.  Not trying to hijack a thread but has anyone else experienced this?


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## JoieDeViveRabbitry (Nov 5, 2009)

They say if you do not breed before a year of age the pelvis will fuse and the doe will not be able to give birth.
 I honestly don't know how true this is.


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## rittert3 (Nov 16, 2009)

I had also heard that the pelvis will fuse if the arn't bred at an early enough age but I had also heard that this happens if they go to long without being bred after the intial breeding. Sorry no specifics, I've never bred just had lots of house rabbits but I've done alot of reading between keeping them and having considered breeding. hope all goes well. O I also agree with the 3 strikes rule for culling I know many farmers who use the same rule with cows.


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## Fancypants4569 (Nov 18, 2009)

Alot of great advise here!!! I agree with the 3 strikes, your out rule...But that would only apply spring thought fall for me. It just gets to cold here and even if I do get a doe to take during the cold weather, it just doesnt seem worth it beacause you risk the chance of the babys freezing anyway. I bred a doe this year a little later in the fall than I usually do and even after 5 days of hair growth we had one very cold night and they didnt make it, even though the nest box was very insulated and mom pulled plenty of hair...:/ Winter breeding is a 50/50 thing...Id wait for Spring to give her an honest chance...Good luck!


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## helmstead (Nov 19, 2009)

Well, she finally kindled, but apparently ate her kits the same night she kindled as all that was left was a wee mess.  

She'll get one more try.

Lots of good advice here, thanks!

As far as I'm concerned, these rabbits were an afterthought on my husbands part, and I got stuck with their care...so if this doesn't work out we'll wait til we've moved and he can try it again when he's a full time farmer and can manage them himself!  I would appreciate it if he'd buy registered stock or at least better quality brood stock.


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## Fancypants4569 (Nov 19, 2009)

One of the biggest reasons your doe would eat her kits is she was low in protien. Just before they are about to kindle you can feed the pelleted calf mana to boost her protien levels. Its also a good boost for milk while she is nursing. The only reason I found this out is because just before my doe kindled, she was eating hair off of a doe in a cage next to her. Did a little reading on it and it sayed that was a sign of low protien, and it sayed that does would eat there kits if they were low on protien also.
 Hope that helps for the next time...


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## Bunnylady (Nov 27, 2009)

Well, at least now you know that she and the buck aren't sterile!

I don't know where you are, but registration with the American Rabbit Breeders Association is only important if you want to show rabbits. Unfortunately, what makes a good show rabbit isn't necessarily the same thing as what makes a good breeder/producer, especially when it comes to commercial (meat) rabbits. I breed "fancy" rabbits myself, but some of the commercial breeders I have known have told me that the animals with the best body type for production would actually do very poorly on a show table, and vice versa. 

But, back to the animals you are working with.

Did you check this doe before you put her in with the buck, or did you just put them together at random? A doe doesn't do proper heat cycles, but she does have times when her hormones make her more likely to concieve. If you use the same approach that you would use to check the gender of a young rabbit, and evert her vulva (can I say that here??!) a little bit, you can see what color it is on the inside. The color you are looking for is cherry red. That signals that her hormones are at their peak, and she is most likely to be receptive. Light pink says she's not ready, and a purplish color means she's past her peak. She may still breed and concieve on those colors, but your likeliest color is red. Some does never show darker than a deep rose color, but generally, the redder, the better. 

When I have a doe that has lost a litter at kindling, I give her a couple of days to recover, then re-breed her. That is one of the highest hormonal peaks she will ever have. Even difficult does usually will be cooperative at that time, and concieve the largest litter that they are capable of carrying. 

Joie, I think the fused pelvis thing is guinea pigs, not rabbits. I have had first time litters out of does that were at least 18 months old, with no problems (former show girls!) Particularly with small breeds, a doe that isn't bred young is likely to get fat, and fat can play havoc with the hormones involved in reproduction. Getting a doe back into production after a layoff can be difficult for the same reason.


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## JoieDeViveRabbitry (Dec 5, 2009)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Well, at least now you know that she and the buck aren't sterile!
> 
> I don't know where you are, but registration with the American Rabbit Breeders Association is only important if you want to show rabbits. Unfortunately, what makes a good show rabbit isn't necessarily the same thing as what makes a good breeder/producer, especially when it comes to commercial (meat) rabbits. I breed "fancy" rabbits myself, but some of the commercial breeders I have known have told me that the animals with the best body type for production would actually do very poorly on a show table, and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Yes, you may very well be right... That doe fat is a killer though!! I have had to deal with that, it is NOT fun!


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2009)

Excellent info on the coloring...I will check this out!

I was planning to go ahead and try again this month, then allow her to kindle indoors...maybe...or in the barn with a nearby heat lamp.


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