# Help with feed question



## cteague (May 4, 2017)

Any suggestions on what to feed when hair coat is rough and a doe needs to gain weight. They had their babys 4 months ago. Thought they would have picked up weight alot sooner. I have dewormed them with Ivomec for the most part. Then switched to cydectin. They have lots of grass but have been giving hay also. They get 4 cups of purina goat chow everyday. They use to only get 2 and it kept them fat and healthy. Loose mineral all the time. Any supplements i need to add. Im at a loss as to what to do. Im afraid folks are gonna call animal control on me. Lol. And it makes me feel aweful because I know im feeding them but can still feel bones. TIA


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## Latestarter (May 4, 2017)

When you wormed them, did you do a fecal first to see what you were trying to kill, and how bad the infestation was? Did you do a followup fecal a week after treatment to see if the desired results were achieved? Did you do the doses correctly? Goats have a high metabolism so generally need a heavier dose. Are you milking them? are the kids still nursing off them? Are you following the milk withdrawal requirements with the wormers? Lots of questions, sorry...


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## cteague (May 4, 2017)

I didnt do the fecal. I did 1 cc per # on the ivomectin. And did the reccomended dose on the cydectin that was on the bottle. They are weaning the babies. One doe has completely quit letting her babies nurse. The other one just lets them nurse for just a few seconds.


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## babsbag (May 4, 2017)

Please tell me that that is 1cc / 100# .

I would say it is probably mineral related, it seems that the goat minerals never give them what they need. Have you done a copper bolus on them?  A good supplement you can give them is Calf manna, whatever amount is suggested on the bag. Another one that is good for their coat is BOSS. Of course with goats go slow or any new feed.


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## cteague (May 4, 2017)

Well no. It was 1cc per pound. But i dont exactly give them that much anymore. I was new to goats and i think thats what killed my 1st buck. He was 40#s. So u know what happened. So everyone just get 1cc ea now.


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## Green Acres Farm (May 4, 2017)

cteague said:


> Well no. It was 1cc per pound. But i dont exactly give them that much anymore. I was new to goats and i think thats what killed my 1st buck. He was 40#s. So u know what happened. So everyone just get 1cc ea now.


You really need to talk to your vet/local experienced breeders in your area and find an accurate dosage that works in your area and get fecals done before/after. Just guessing and giving the wrong dose/wrong medicine/wrong time leads to parasite resistance for your goats and other people's. 

Do you know how much your goats weigh exactly?


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## frustratedearthmother (May 4, 2017)

This is a 50 ml bottle.... so your vet told you 1cc per lb of goat?  That would mean I have to give my 150 lb buck 3 bottles?  That's a mistake somewhere.  Either your vet is way off, or hopefully, there was just a misunderstanding.  Please call your vet for clarification - and if that's what he tells you again - get a new vet!


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## Green Acres Farm (May 4, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> View attachment 32094 This is a 50 ml bottle.... so your vet told you 1cc per lb of goat?  That would mean I have to give my 150 lb buck 3 bottles?  That's a mistake somewhere.  Either your vet is way off, or hopefully, there was just a misunderstanding.  Please call your vet for clarification - and if that's what he tells you again - get a new vet!


She didn't say anything about a vet being involved.


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## Goat Whisperer (May 4, 2017)

Were you using the horse wormer?

Do you have a pic of the stuff you used?


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## frustratedearthmother (May 4, 2017)

Looks like there is a need to get a vet involved!


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## cteague (May 4, 2017)

It wad told to me by another goat owner. It is the ivomec cattle dewormer. I know now not to give that much. Kinda made the mistake with the buck. Live and hard lesson learned.


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## cteague (May 4, 2017)

Green Acres Farm said:


> You really need to talk to your vet/local experienced breeders in your area and find an accurate dosage that works in your area and get fecals done before/after. Just guessing and giving the wrong dose/wrong medicine/wrong time leads to parasite resistance for your goats and other people's.
> 
> Do you know how much your goats weigh exactly?


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## babsbag (May 5, 2017)

I don't have to worm very often, but the dose of the Ivermectin injectable is 2cc for my standard sized goats, they weigh an average of 130 lb.


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## Green Acres Farm (May 5, 2017)

cteague said:


> It wad told to me by another goat owner. It is the ivomec cattle dewormer. I know now not to give that much. Kinda made the mistake with the buck. Live and hard lesson learned.


That's frustrating. When I first got goats, I bought some from somebody who said they put a little horse dewormer on a cracker to deworm them when they thought they needed it. No dosage, just put what they thought might be okay.


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## cteague (May 5, 2017)

Yes very frustrating since i know i killed my buck. He was dead the next day. I think he was so wormy that they all let loose at the same time and he bled internal. He looked aweful when i found him.


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## cteague (May 5, 2017)

So should calf manna fix my problem. Someone suggested it in earlier post. Or do i need to change their feed? I have tried BOSS and they wouldnt eat it before. Might get a small bag and try again.


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## Southern by choice (May 5, 2017)

cteague said:


> Yes very frustrating since i know i killed my buck. He was dead the next day. I think he was so wormy that they all let loose at the same time and he bled internal. He looked aweful when i found him.


It was not that the worms all let loose at once and that was what killed the goat.
It was the OVERDOSE that killed your goat.

What region are you?


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## Goat Whisperer (May 5, 2017)

cteague said:


> So should calf manna fix my problem. Someone suggested it in earlier post. Or do i need to change their feed? I have tried BOSS and they wouldnt eat it before. Might get a small bag and try again.


I agree with SBC

This was an overdose that became toxic. 

I think you really need to consult a vet and have a vet come to evaluate your feeding practices, worming practices, etc.


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## cteague (May 5, 2017)

East TN


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## cteague (May 5, 2017)

Thanks everyone


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## Southern by choice (May 5, 2017)

There is a really good vet that is mobile that practices along the TN/NC line. Are you close to there?


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## babsbag (May 5, 2017)

I have  a goat in my herd that freshend in Jan and she is more bones than meat, and she does this every year. Her coat looks like crap and no matter what I do she will stay this way until I dry her off. She gets the same feed and minerals as my other goats but she still looks horrible. 

The calf manna may help, any extra calories may help. I have tried all kinds of show supplements with her but she is just a hard keeper.  Another treat that may help is pumpkin seeds. Mine love BOSS when I mix it with their grain so you might try that. I also have fed beet pulp but with mixed reviews but honestly if it is out there I have probably tried it. 

What helps with the coat is injectable minerals, but they are prescription and you may get injection site lumps, some do...some don't but it does help with coat condition. Kelp is another good one for coats. Do you have a loose goat mineral out for her? 

Getting a fecal would be a good idea in case it is parasites.


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

Yes she has free chioice mineral babsbag. I am in East Tn Southern By Choice. Between Chattanooga and Knoxville.


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## babsbag (May 6, 2017)

Another question...does she eat her minerals? Mine hate some brands and ignore them. For three years I thought that they didn't need minerals as they never ate them, then I switched brands and now they go through a bag a week. (40 goats).


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

I have a big dish i put the mineral in and when i dump it in all of them seem to eat it. Not sure if she is going back to it or not. But they are disappearing. I use the Manna Pro brand.


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## Southern by choice (May 6, 2017)

You may be dealing with a cobalt issue. 
@Ferguson K  had some goats she brought in that really did look like they weren't gonna make it she did the cobalt and WOW! Amazing results.

Tagging her now maybe she can link right to the thread where it started.
Manna Pro does not have enough cobalt to make a difference.

We actually just ordered the loose powder cobalt from http://www.goatworld.com/store/   because we have a buck that just cannot gain weight.... he has zero parasites, eats great, has excepional genetics... just won't gain.... on the farm he came from they gave cobalt.

We just got our cobalt in and we will be documenting the progress.  Check out k's thread!
You more than likely need to give copper bolus as well... this makes a big difference with parasites.

@Ferguson K - can you pull up where your thread starts on the goats you brought in and ended up doing the cobalt with?


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> You may be dealing with a cobalt issue.
> @Ferguson K  had some goats she brought in that really did look like they weren't gonna make it she did the cobalt and WOW! Amazing results.
> 
> Tagging her now maybe she can link right to the thread where it started.
> ...


Ok thank u. I will try to find a better mineral and do the copper


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## Southern by choice (May 6, 2017)

cteague said:


> Ok thank u. I will try to find a better mineral and do the copper


There are only 2 minerals that have decent amounts of copper but you really won't find adequate levels in any premixed goat mineral. Cobalt is very expensive and that is why it is only a trace amount added to pre mixes if any at all.
If the goats are wasting away despite the feed and forage etc... you could have Johnes. Johnes is a wasting disease. It is really starting to affect goats because people just don't want to test their animals. 

http://johnes.org/

If these were my goats I would do the following

Run fecals on all goats
FAMACHA on all goats
Test for CAE and Johnes

After that a mineral analysis


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

CAE and Johnes would be a blood test correct?


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## Southern by choice (May 6, 2017)

Yes. Although the fecal for Johnes is the best.
Honestly I would do the fecal- it has to go to the right lab though.
You can do a group sampling... iow if you have 10 goats take fecals from 5 and put in a bag and the same for theother 5.
It takes roughly 8-16 weeks to grow the culture... if it does grow then they will say Bag A showed positive... or whatever then you can isolate and do individual fecals. But that is costly so starting with the group is best. Johnes.org explains the specificity of each kind of test.

If you do serum Rollins lab in NC will do out of state customers for the following fees.
$3 for each CAE
$3 for each Johnes
These are both serum


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

Oh thats not bad at all.  I may see if the University of TN do these test. If so i may send to them. Unless u think I should send them to the one in NC. Thanks so much for ur help. Had no idea i needed to test them yearly.


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

Say u have a clean heard from the Johns disease. Can they catch it from the deer in the area. And vice versa?


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## Ferguson K (May 6, 2017)

cteague said:


> Say u have a clean heard from the Johns disease. Can they catch it from the deer in the area. And vice versa?



Johnes is not species specific. If the local deer have it, or local cattle, your goats can get it. Let me find my thread.


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## Ferguson K (May 6, 2017)

I can't find the link with the pictures. But here's the discussion. 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/cobalt-deficiency-thoughts.34492/

Let me see if I can find the pictures.


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## Ferguson K (May 6, 2017)

Before 




 

 

 

1 week in



 


 

After



 

There were four total, but Annabelle was the worst.


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## cteague (May 6, 2017)

Thank u Ferguson K for the info. Looks like i have some reading to do.☺


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## Southern by choice (May 7, 2017)

Thanks @Ferguson K  I figured you could find it faster than I. 
@cteague  if your goats are real thin as you had mentioned... do the process of elimination.... the fecals.. the testing... and start looking at the mineral issues.

In the end it will be less expensive than losing goats.
There are some articles that I will try to find and post when I do.


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## cteague (May 7, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Thanks @Ferguson K  I figured you could find it faster than I.
> @cteague  if your goats are real thin as you had mentioned... do the process of elimination.... the fecals.. the testing... and start looking at the mineral issues.
> 
> In the end it will be less expensive than losing goats.
> There are some articles that I will try to find and post when I do.


Thank u so much!


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## animalmom (May 7, 2017)

@Southern by choice, how do you use the cobalt sulfate you mentioned?  I went to that website and didn't find any feeding directions... could be I missed it.


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## Southern by choice (May 7, 2017)

animalmom said:


> @Southern by choice, how do you use the cobalt sulfate you mentioned?  I went to that website and didn't find any feeding directions... could be I missed it.



i am going to sprinkle it on some sweet feed so it sticks to it... A friend uses it and does about an oz a week... i will probably do a teaspoon everyday this week and then  give ir once a week... still looking at having my vet look at it too.


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## animalmom (May 7, 2017)

@Southern by choice, thanks for the info.  Would you let us all know how it works for you?  I've got a wether that looks like he's been through heck and back, but fecal came back clean.  He's skinny, bad hair, interested in food and has a good attitude.  Pen mates are just fine.  I started giving him some Calf Manna this week, but he's not liking it much.  Pen mates think it is wonderful.  I'm this close to kicking the babies and new moms out of the nursery and putting this boy in so I can monitor his eating better.


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## Southern by choice (May 7, 2017)

animalmom said:


> @Southern by choice, thanks for the info.  Would you let us all know how it works for you?  I've got a wether that looks like he's been through heck and back, but fecal came back clean.  He's skinny, bad hair, interested in food and has a good attitude.  Pen mates are just fine.  I started giving him some Calf Manna this week, but he's not liking it much.  Pen mates think it is wonderful.  I'm this close to kicking the babies and new moms out of the nursery and putting this boy in so I can monitor his eating better.


Give him an injection of B complex.... this should help

These are all good articles.... if you have time read all 3

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/nutrition/vitaminsandminerals.shtml
*http://articles.extension.org/pages/19381/goat-nutrition-minerals*
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/manag...ition-goats/nutritional-requirements-of-goats


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## babsbag (May 7, 2017)

It's interesting that the cobalt sulfate is red and cobalt blocks are blue.  I am going to buy a block as soon as I can find one and see if the goats use it.


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## Southern by choice (May 7, 2017)

babsbag said:


> It's interesting that the cobalt sulfate is red and cobalt blocks are blue.  I am going to buy a block as soon as I can find one and see if the goats use it.



I am not going to put this out because I think the dogs may chew on it- they are the goats "food testers"
http://www.simsupply.com/50lb-cobalt-block-87014/


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## babsbag (May 7, 2017)

I have never seen my dogs eat the minerals or the blocks...goats eating dog food...of course. 

If they did lick at the cobalt would it be extremely bad for the dogs? I'm not talking a diet of it, but just a taste.


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## cteague (May 7, 2017)

While looking up the copper and cobalt boluses i came across copper boluses for kids. Should i give it to them also?  Will it hurt them to give them just in case?


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## Southern by choice (May 7, 2017)

What are their ages and weights?
Are you seeing symptoms of deficiency?
High parasite loads? Fishtail? Rough or curly tips on the coat?


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## cteague (May 8, 2017)

They are 5 months. Look very healthy and their coats look great.


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## cteague (May 10, 2017)

I am still going to do the fecal and test for Johns and CAE. But I bought them a better mineral and they almost gorged themselves. And still eating on it alot! It was a 25# bag and its disappearing fast! So guess I will be getting them another bag. And i hope it helps them start to gain.


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## Southern by choice (May 10, 2017)

That is fantastic!  What mineral did you end up with? Always good to see what is being used out there!


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## babsbag (May 10, 2017)

Mine did that too when I switched minerals and found one they liked. The bag said that there is a limit of how much they should eat but I found that they seem to know when they have had enough. They did slow down after a few days.


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## cteague (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> That is fantastic!  What mineral did you end up with? Always good to see what is being used out there!


It is one my local Co-op mixes. I will try and get a picure of the label and bag.


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## cteague (May 11, 2017)

This is supposed to be mixed for my area of TN.


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