# Will Ellie The Goat Survive????  MYSTERY ILLNESS!!



## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

So, Ive posted a few times about this pygmy goat I bought a week or so ago, she has/had soooo many issues. Even the vet is kinda confused...

Im hoping if I post all her symptoms and her treatments, maybe I could get a few opinions, maybe help out others in similar situations. PLease forgive spelling/typos....

To start, I readily admit I broke the rule of 'Dont buy an animal if it is showing any signs of illness". Sorry, couldnt help it, and I didnt think she was *this* sick.

Any how, Ellie is a 30 pound (30 cuz she's underweight) pygmy doe I got a around Dec, 29th. She had pretty bad diarrhea and was thin. She was with a small buck and the other goat I bought who is very healthy. Her hooves are very overgrown. I trimmed them up- no sign of thrush or infection, so her feet arent keeping her down.

I put her on Pro-bios and Corrid and wormed her (wormed her again a week after the first worming.) After about a week, she was up and walking, eating, and pooping regularly. But 3 days ago, she seemed to be unable to stand up.

Sooooo, I called the vet. Of course, she was up and walking all normal for the vet. I had given her Red Cell and Nutri-drench that day as well. Vet was positive about her recovery. The next day though, Ellie couldnt get up. I even tried to stand her up manually, she just layed back down.

She is off the Corrid since she has good poops. Still giving pro-bios, red cell and Nutri drench (until last night) She was getting red cell and nutri for about 4 days prior, one time a day, in the AM. She is only occasionally vocal.

But the last 3 days she has been TOTALLY unable to stand up. She is still eating and drinking (very little water intake though), but will not stand up. If I roll her over, I can see poop berries falling out, so I know she;s pooping, and water spots around where she lays, so she is peeing.

NOW, the last 2 days, we have her on pro-bios, betamine (sp?) for pain in case she has arthritis, as well as penicillian in case of infection- she has some greenish yellow snot, so I said lets give antibiotics. I havent givin any red cell or nutridrench today. She is also on an IV drip of saline, 250 cc's twice a day. Her skin is very tight, obvious dehydration, thus the extra fluids.

The vet is stumped. I have no idea what to do. 

She is still VERY interested in getting goat chow, and still eating hay. Her gums and eyes are pinking up, they were pale, but she doesnt show signs of worms anymore.

Any ideas? Will try to keep ya'll posted on her...


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## SmallFarmGirl (Jan 11, 2012)

The poor thing... hope all goes well!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 11, 2012)

I would be adding Thiamine to that. Corid can cause goat polio. Corid can strip a goat of thiamine which then causes goat polio. I would be getting B Complex into her ASAP. Something strong from the vet would be best but you can even get Fortified B Complex but that would probably have to be shipped to you.

That was great that you took her on. I hope she gets better for you.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 11, 2012)

Have you actually had fecals done?


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

oops, I guess I forgot a few things....

We had fecals done the second day after we got her- it showed a heavy load of worms, as well as a heavy load of Coccidioisis. Treated her for both, and she no longer shows signs of either, but we havent done a repeat fecal. Her pink gums and berry poops seemed enough for the vet to feel good about her. Treated with Corrid for 8 days, re-wormed her 1 week after the first worming.

We also gave her a shot of Thiamine and a B6 shot 3 days ago. Havent repeated those shots as I am at my limit cash wise. Already have spent over 600  on her vet fee's and meds alone. Just cant spend any more. My hubby doesnt even know how much Ive spent. Oh, and that 600 doesnt include the Red cell, Nutridrnech, or 2nd tube of pro-bios. That stuff was another 50 or 60 bucks.

Im trying so hard, and I just dont know what to do, or if I should just give up. I HATE the idea that I may just be prolonging her suffering. Maybe it is her time to go? Im just not ready to give up, but what else can I do for her? I have 6 children to feed and other animals to feed and care for, I cant realistically give her anymore than I already am. 


Well, I guess if there was anything else I could try that wouldnt cost more than 50 bucks and would fit into what Im already doing (medicating twice a day), I am willing to try it.





where is the goat version of the "Easy Button"....????


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2012)

I really don't have much to add here except that tight skin doesn't *necessarily* mean dehydration, especially if the goat's thin.  The best way I've found to check for dehydration is to pinch their upper eyelid.  If it stays tented, they're dehydrated.  If if feels kinda flabby and doesn't tent up, they're OK.  I sincerely doubt a goat that's willing and able to drink on her own is dehydrated, unless of course it's simply that she can't physically *get* to water..  Not saying you're doing anything bad by giving her SQ fluids, of course...I just happen to know that bags of lactated ringers aren't cheap (I think I paid like $17/bag?!) and when you add in a few bucks for fresh disposable IV sets...it can rack up pretty quickly.  I don't use lactated ringers unless I've got a goat that's failing the eyelid-pinch test, won't drink on its own, and can't be drenched with electrolyte solutions (unable to swallow, for instance).

As far as her being a "downer," I've unfortunately had several experiences with goats that got sick, went down, and couldn't get back up..  In the cases I've had, it's usually started as a "can't" and, as they got better from whatever it was that took them down, it turned into a frustrating "WON'T get up" situation.  I've had some that I suspected of actually getting a little...ahem...complacent, shall we say?...on account of being sore from laying around and not really *wanting* or *needing* to go through the discomfort of stretching out and getting moving, falling down, etc., because they're being brought hay and feed and water, and are basically being *pampered*..  When I see a goat like that...one that's been sick, but is now laying around with a cud, being served hand and foot, bright and alert and looking fine aside from not getting up and moving...I tend to make them start working a little bit for their upkeep.  Even if it's just a matter of throwing their hay to the far corner of the stall and putting their feed and water at standing height.  Food is a powerful motivator for a goat..  Yes, it's kinda hard on one's heart to do that (until you get as fed-up and jaded as me), but what you'll usually find is that when you do that and just walk the hell off, when you come back half a day later the feed will be gone, the hay's been gone through, the water bucket's dropped a little, and the goat will be laying elsewhere from where you left her..  Also, take a look at where goat berries are ending up..  When they *stop* piling up behind her, she's moving.  She may not want YOU to know that so you'll keep serving her like a handmaid, but she's moving around..  

Beyond that, the second best motivator I've found is herd instinct..  Goats that have been stalled before, and fed, watered, and pampered while they've been stalled, don't generally mind being stalled.  If they're sick or down, they seem to take it even easier, perhaps because it makes them feel safe enough to get them over their herd instinct..  When I see that a goat is moving around and basically *has* to be standing at least some of the time to reach food and water, I turn her out into the barn either that night or the next, just depending on how much she's really taking me for a fool..  

What I've seen happen is that she'll come stumbling out and find a place to lay down with the rest of the herd, and she'll lay all night..  When the sun comes up and everybody gets up and starts making their way out, however...well, that's where herd instinct comes into play.  She's not gonna wanna just lay there exposed, so if she *can* get up, she *will* get up.  She may not be able to keep up with the rest of them, and she may get SUPER PISSED OFF and stressed out feeling like she's abandoned, and it can be hard to watch a recently-up goat kinda stumble and maybe fall and lay down helplessly and scream and yell...but just think of it as motivation.  She's not suffering -- SHE'S MOTIVATED.

It's OK to let a goat lay for a couple days to rest and recuperate, but beyond that, the quicker you can motivate her to get up and move, the better off she'll be.  

And for what it's worth, I've had goats I knew could stand -- barely -- for several days, and have watched them hobble for a couple days which are now out there amidst the herd like it never happened..

OH, also...something else I usually do for a downer is give Selenium..  Selenium seems to have the most impact on muscle and connective tissue (I've seen it flat-out CURE contracted tendons and knock-knees in babies, for instance), so unless I've *just* given one Selenium recently, I give it.  

Ok, so maybe I had more to add than I figured...


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

Funny that you mention that (her just being kinda lack-sa-doodle and enjoying the pampering!). I thought about it maybe being that. 

But then I tried to lure her out. I gave her no goat chow, but let her see me giving it to her 'sister'. She struggled to stand up, meeeehhhed a little, then just gave up. She quit trying to even get any. Next day was the same, but I took pity on her and gave her some in front of her. She ate it like a hog!

I have her water near her head, and her hay next to her head as well. She seems to scoot around in her barn a little bit- maybe a radius of about 3 feet or so. She will sccot inside at night, then scoot towards the doorway so she can see outside, but wont/cant get up to walk around.


I havent givin any additional Selenium because Red Cell has selenium in it, as well as the nutri-drench has sodium selenite and thiamine in it. From what Ive read, and what the vet said, if I gave more selenium, I would over-dose her in a bad way.


I will do the eye-lid test later today. The vet did say a goat her size only drinks about a liter of water a day. That really isnt that much, I guess, and when you add the 1/2 liter I am giving Sub-Q every day, maybe she is getting enough fluid and isnt dehydrated.

I just wish she would GET UP!!!

I will post eye-lid test results soon.


THANK YOU for sharing your experiences!


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2012)

Someone mentioned Thiamine, which reminds me...I will generally always give a downer quite a bit of fortified B-complex just in case it's a polio thing (an adult will get a full 6ml syringe at least once a day until she can run from me  ), and I also give lots of safeguard dewormer (like, at least 1ml/10lbs for at least 3 days) in case it's a meningeal worm thing..  And of course, if there's a scour, I treat for that, and if I suspect they could be losing condition because of coccidiosis (if it's a youngish goat) I'll give dimethox..  And most of my downers get started on broad-spectrum antibiotics, regardless of whether they're feverish or 'off' simply because downer animals have a tendency to pick up pneumonia.  Some people wouldn't agree with that, but I think most vets would understand the reasoning and agree that -- at the very least -- it's not a bad idea.

And yanno, speaking of downers getting to the point where they can run from me...let's just say it's not beneath me to come in there and stick a goat with *something* every time I enter the stall, even if it's just b-complex or something equally harmless, just to give her a reason to NOT want to just hang out there.  Or drench one with something nasty...whatever.  You get the idea.

You might think that's evil, but I'll tell ya this...  I had a buck once who was *obviously* eaten up with coccidiosis, if not some kind of bacterial gut infection or something like that..  He was completely wild.  You could NOT touch this buck with a 10' pole..  No matter how sick he was, he was clearly more than willing to use his last breath to run from me, and he almost did.  I came to the barn one Saturday morning and founding him laying flat out on his side with his eyes open, starting to cloud over..  I walked over and thought to myself...well...I guess you really *did* waste your last bit of energy running!...because I'd tried to catch him the night before.  

About then, I hear this faint little 'meh' and he paddled one foot.  I literally jumped back and had to evaluate for a second whether or not he was really alive, or whether this could potentially be the beginning of a zombie apocolypse.  

Once I determined that he *was* in fact alive, I knew I needed to go back to the house to get something...I just couldn't decide between meds or my pistol.  That's the absolute truth.  While I'm pondering, I walk up into the loft and busted a bale of hay to throw..  As I toss it out and everyone goes running to get their share, he really starts paddling..  as near death as he was, he *wanted* that hay..  And that pretty much sealed the deal -- I had to at least *try* to help him.  I went over and picked him up, sat him on his brisket, held him in place long enough for him to get his bearings, and then put some hay in front of him.  He took a few bites and chewed really slowly, but he seemed...thankful?  I dunno.  I went back for more and I'll be daggoned if he didn't fall over and start paddling again like "HEY! I fell over! Come set me up again, I'm still hungry!"  

So, I carried him over to a stall, propped him up, scotched him to keep him from falling over, buried him in straw to keep him warm, set some hay and a little feed out in front of him, and made sure he got a few big long gulps of water..  I went to the house and subsequently came back to his stall armed with almost everything in the medicine cabinet.  That goat got pinched, poked, prodded, drenched -- you name it -- at least twice a day for several days.  Eventually I came down there and 'caught' him standing, wobbly though he was, and so he got kicked out of his stall shortly thereafter.  

He's still out there today, and is BY FAR the deadest goat I've ever brought back.  And yanno, as much as he ran from me to begin with, and as much as I "tortured" him while he was recovering...he'll actually come up to me nowadays and want me to scratch his head.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2012)

pridegoethb4thefall said:
			
		

> Funny that you mention that (her just being kinda lack-sa-doodle and enjoying the pampering!). I thought about it maybe being that.
> 
> But then I tried to lure her out. I gave her no goat chow, but let her see me giving it to her 'sister'. She struggled to stand up, meeeehhhed a little, then just gave up. She quit trying to even get any. Next day was the same, but I took pity on her and gave her some in front of her. She ate it like a hog!


Well, if she tried and couldn't do it, then she's not faking..  She's recuperating.  Be sure to stand her up a couple times a day and *make* her stand.  They're usually wobbly in the back end and I've had to brace them before by letting them kinda lean on me, but that's ok -- she needs to stand to keep blood flowing, keep her ligaments from contracting, etc etc etc..  And really, I think it makes them feel better...more confident...if they can just stand for a little while.  



> I havent givin any additional Selenium because Red Cell has selenium in it, as well as the nutri-drench has sodium selenite and thiamine in it. From what Ive read, and what the vet said, if I gave more selenium, I would over-dose her in a bad way.


Well, I'm certainly not going to tell you not to listen to your vet because I don't need a lawsuit  but I've given a full dose of Bo-Se and followed it with a half-dose two days later in few "gonna die anyway" situations -- and I've yet to kill one with Selenium.  Two downers got double doses or dose-and-a-halfs and made recoveries.  And I've given MANY, MANY babies 1/2ml of Bo-Se just a little while after birth, and we're talking 7lb babies..  A 1/2ml dose is the dosage for 20lbs, so really, that's a triple dose...and they improve.

I guess what I'm saying is that, in my personal experience, Selenium isn't as OMGAH BE REALLY CAREFUL! as it's made out to be.

But again...listen to your vet.  Individual results may vary.  Void where prohibited.  Open only to US residents age 18 and over.  Not available in Rhode Island.  Quantities are limited.  Not valid with any other discount.  Offers cannot be combined.  Limit one per household.  See official rules for details.  No purchase necessary.  Don't try this at home.  etc etc etc...


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jan 11, 2012)

While she may have trouble standing up, if you can rig a sling of some kind you may want to get her in an upright position and essentially on her feed w/ support. Her legs are going to lock up a good bit if she's down for several days.  Since she's a pygmy, a dog harness may work. Or a strip of sheeting under her belly. Something so she can be supported while her legs figure themselves out again.  


 I would also second treating her for meningeal worm just in case.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

Ok-

I just gave her the eye-lid pinch. Wasnt sure if it was supposed to be the top or bottom eyelid, so I did both  on both sides. It was kinda hard since her skin is kinda tight, but what I did grab and pinch/pull snapped right back.

She does have yellow mucus coming out of her nose though.  I have her on 2 cc's of penicillian twice a day, just started that yesterday though, so she has only had 3 shots so far of that.



Should I continue Red Cell AND Nutridrench?


Also-

I have human grade, in tablet form---B-12, 250 mcg per tablet, B-6, 100 MG per tablet, D, 400 t.u. (dont know what t.u. means, but thats what it says).

Can I give any of these to her?? How much and how often would be reccomended, or worked for you?  BTW, she is about 30 pounds.


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## dreamriver (Jan 11, 2012)

I didn't see where you are located but along with polio, listeria there is also meningeal worm which is spread by deer.   Is it mostly her back legs that seem to be the trouble, or all over?   other than that I second the previous replies to use, probios, vit b, etc...


good luck


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

Was just out with her, trying to get her to stand up. She lays with her front feet tucked under her, back feet kinda under her belly, but each on its own side, not both back legs under her to one side.

I bought her from a man in Sacramento, kind of a residential neighborhood, not likely she was in any enviroment that had deer or cattle. Her 'sister' was with her and is here as well, and she is healthy as could be. If all this stuff is so contagious, I keep wondering why one is so ill and one is so healthy?

She just plain ol' REFUSED to put ANY weight on ANY of her legs. I would pull her front feet out, get her front end kinda 'up', then I would go for the back feet, she wouldnt even begin to put any weight on them. Almost would try to keep them from hanging down to the ground. Not quite pulling them up to her belly, but certainly wouldnt let them go to the ground to have weight on them. Also, once I went for the back legs, she would collapse her front end and go back to the ground. She only cried a tiny bit when I  pulled her front legs out from under her and straightned them out. Then she stopped complaining all together. Her back legs do seem almost weaker...

I tried to get her up for ten minutes. I tried to lure her with goat chow for a good ten minutes also. She would reach her neck out and stick her tongue out, but REFUSED to actually move to get it. She just gave up trying to get it, even when it was only 1 foot away and my other goat was eating it.

Not sure if she pooped today, but she did pee for sure. No ucky stuff on her bottom. She lets me roll her over and check her out and poke and prod her belly, she seems to have no fight in her, but still loves to eat. 

Yes, I did take pity on her in the end and gave her goat chow by hand.......  she ate it all up, as well as the hay I put by her head. 

I gave her penicillian and pain killers this morning- 2 cc's of banamine for pain around 9 am. If her legs hurt, wouldnt the pain killer help and at least allow her to stand? I hope the pennicillian will work as well on whatever else she has....


So, I can give her the human B vitamins? How much for her 30 pounds?


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2012)

pridegoethb4thefall said:
			
		

> Ok-
> 
> I just gave her the eye-lid pinch. Wasnt sure if it was supposed to be the top or bottom eyelid, so I did both  on both sides. It was kinda hard since her skin is kinda tight, but what I did grab and pinch/pull snapped right back.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's going to hurt anything, but I basically quit using nutridrench for anything but weak babies and use red-cell on adults instead.  That goes even if I'm trying to get a little 'boost' in a weak adult, since it's kinda syrupy..  I figure something that sweet and sticky *has* to have some energy in it, but I can't back that up.. 



> Also-
> 
> I have human grade, in tablet form---B-12, 250 mcg per tablet, B-6, 100 MG per tablet, D, 400 t.u. (dont know what t.u. means, but thats what it says).
> 
> Can I give any of these to her?? How much and how often would be reccomended, or worked for you?  BTW, she is about 30 pounds.


I think goats actually do pretty well processing vitamin b orally, but there are a couple of things going through my mind about this right now..  First, I don't see vitamin B-1 in there, which I believe is thiamine..  If this problem has anything to do with inadequate thiamine -- which, now that I think about it, it might...more on that in a sec -- she'd need the B-1 first and foremost..  HOWEVER, I'd still avoid dosing thiamine orally because coccidia thrive on thiamine.  Which reminds me that some coccidia medication disrupt thiamine processing in the rumen specifically to combat coccidia, which, to me, always sounded like a really bad strategy.  The thing is, if I'm not mistaken, CORID is one of those meds....which brought me around to thinking harder about the thiamine thing, because as I recall, she was put on CoRid for coccidia!

I wouldn't say it's likely based only on that, but it did kinda get my spidey senses tingling a lil bit.. 

Having said that, I'd definitely try to get my mitts on some *injectable* vitamin b complex if I were you, and quickly.  Preferably 'fortified' b-complex, but take what you can get..  Call around to your local farm and feed stores and see if anybody has some..  Something else to think about is calling the vet to see what they've got..  Even if they don't have b-complex handy, they should have straight injectable thiamine, which is a scrip-only med..  They should be able to advise on dosages, which I can't, because I've never used straight thiamine before.  

Actually...maybe you just call the vet and run the CoRid/thiamine-deficiency thing by them first, now that I think about it.. 

And, btw, that's 'i.u.' -- not 't.u.' ..  International Units.  And, just for what it's worth, 400iu of vitamin d is woefully insufficient for humans, imho.  I think the FDA recommends like 800iu/day for adults, but between me, you, and the fence post, I believe that number's eventually gonna come up to like 2,000iu/day.  Again -- I'm talking for humans, i.e., YOU, since this is something you pulled out of your own human med cabinet.  I take 5,000iu/day probably 5 days a week (I forget my vitamins sometimes..lol) and have for the past...jeez...three years?...despite warnings that it can be o/d'd (which it can...they actually use it for rat poison in some applications) and I'm still here.  But that's me, and again, your mileage may vary...lol  I just threw this out there because I'm a pretty strong advocate not only of folks taking their vities, but vitamin d3 specifically..  Vit D deficiency is RAMPANT in the US these days, leading to *a lot* of health problems..

Anyhoo...hope that helps.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> pridegoethb4thefall said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She did get a injection of Thiamine, and was on Red cell the day before she went down and couldnt/wouldnt get up. Also a B6 shot, same day. I stopped Corid treatment the other day.

Is Red Cell not high enough in Thiamine to help her? (if that is her issue?)


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2012)

Usually if they can, they'll at least try to keep standing if you stand them up..  Sometimes they can't, but they'll generally try.  I've only had one that didn't, and unfortunately that ended in a really bad outcome.  I believe she had a spinal cord injury.  Not saying that's the case with your goat, but I don't at all like that she's not even trying.  I'd be incline to start really messing with her hind feet to see if she reacts at all, or if it's as if she doesn't feel anything..  Goats are tough so it would be hard to tell, but if you start fooling with her hooves she *should* try to take them away from ya.

If I'm being honest, though...this doesn't sound good.  Keep doing what you're trying to do, and see about getting some b-complex or thiamine, plus something just in case it's meningeal worm (aka 'gid' or 'staggers,' which I think the larvae for that actually comes from dog tapeworms)..  Keep up the PenG, the feed, water, attempts to make her stand -- everything you're doing.  I don't think there's much to be done beyond what you're doing.  She'll either get better, or she won't.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 11, 2012)

I appreciate your candor. Honestly, I have a feeling she is going to pass away.

Just a moment ago, I was out with her, just looking at her. She is shivering a little (its a bit chilly here though). She kinda coughed, didnt appear to chew cud though. Then I wasnt sure if she was trying to get up, or a cough sent her rolling, but she kinda rolled a bit to the side, then dropped her head a bit and gave up. She just sits there, head up, looking around.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2012)

The shivering may simply be that she's cold, but I'd say it's probably a fever.  Keep up on the penicillin and remember, she hasn't had that much of it yet.  If it goes more than another day or so without much improvement, ask your vet if he'll give you some Naxcel or Excenel..  It's a stronger, newer, more potent penicillin-class antibiotic, basically.  For now, if you have any straw, it's not a bad idea to cover her up with it.  All but her head, of course..  A lot of folks use blankets, but a big thick layer of straw works really well, doesn't get soggy or nasty like blankets, and poses no danger of chewing/choking, etc..  I've done it many times.  As for the rolling or tipping, she may have just been trying to get herself repositioned....but a few failures to be able to do even the littlest things like repositioning herself can, and will, *really* dampen her spirit.

Goats do just give up sometimes.  They quit trying, and I'm not just talking about trying to stand or walk or move or anything like that, but to LIVE.  And when they give up on trying to live, it's almost invariably downhill from there.  It's been my experience -- and I think a lot of folks here will back me up on this -- that a goat which *wants* to live can overcome seemingly insurmountable odds and pull through, whereas a goat that gives up almost seems to will itself into dying.  I've seen it go both ways many times, and with enough experience, you get to a point where you can look into the animal's eyes and know it's already decided it's going to die.

The good news is that if she's still interested in feed, she's not there yet.    She's not given up, so you shouldn't either.  I don't give up until the animal gives up, ever.  Even when it seems hopeless, so long as the animal still acts like it wants to live...like, sticking her tongue out and stretching her neck for feed  ...I'll do everything I can to help see it through.  

Keep feeding her, keep up on the antibiotics, keep looking for b-complex, keep standing her up as much as you can, etc.  If you feel like her spirits are fading, bring her some treats...raisins or something like that.  Bring her some *warm* water from the house, maybe with a little molasses mixed in..  Sit with her, talk to her, pet on her..  If the sun's out tomorrow and it's not too windy, carry her outside and let her lay in the sun for a while.  These are all things I've *known* to help animals pull through when I've kinda gotten the impression that they're beginning to ask themselves if it's even worth trying anymore..  

Don't give up!  Not yet!


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## babsbag (Jan 11, 2012)

I don't have any advice for you with your goat, but I see that you got it from someone in Sacramento. So can I guess that you are in California, near Sac? I live up in Redding and have an AWESOME goat vet in Red Bluff. She raises her own goats and is a great resource. 

PM me if you would like any more information.  I am not saying that your vet is not a good vet, but goats are peculiar to be sure and it is nice to have someone that interacts with the beasts first hand.

Good luck with her.


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## Roll farms (Jan 12, 2012)

If the b vitamin didn't help, I'd assume it's menengeal worm...but goats and their illnesses can fool you all day.
I really have nothing useful to add but "Good luck"...


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## cmjust0 (Jan 12, 2012)

Updates?


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## cmjust0 (Jan 13, 2012)

Still no updates....I'm starting to assume the worst here...


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 13, 2012)

Sorry for my lapse- its been crazy around here. I havent mentioned I have 6 human children, 4 horses, 25 chickens, 10 ducks, 4 dogs, 2 rabbits, 4 guiena fowl and 2 cats, have I? I have been so wrapped up in trying to help Ellie, AND take care of all the others, I havent had a chance to post an update.

So, things are dismal... I am now sure she has advanced Goat Polio and is beyond help. I have tried EVERYTHING- thiamine in Sub-Q shots, red cell, nutridrench, extra B vitamins, pro-bios, penicillian, IV saline hydration, oral hydration with a big syringe....EVERYTHING. 

She is just getting worse. For 2 days now she has been immobile on her side, unable to lift her head, with her head cocked back towards her back/spine. 

She still makes the occasional noise, is still pooping and peeing and occasionally paddles her legs. But she also seems to be having occasional tremors or convulsions. Has slime oozing from her mouth too.

Vet wants over 200$ to put her down, I dont have a gun and dont know what else to do. I have been giving her the pain meds in case she is hurting. I cant imagine she will last much longer. I go out to her 3 or 4 times a day, roll her to her other side, give her water through a big syringe and talk kindly to her. I keep a blanket on her too so she isnt too cold. 

I dont what else to do. I want to keep giving her meds, but DONT want to prolong her suffering, but DONT want to give up if the meds might still help.    This is breaking my heart...kids are upset too. 

How is it she can be so sick and the other goat, Sophie, can be so healthy? This is all so unfair.....

Any advice?


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## SmallFarmGirl (Jan 13, 2012)

Take care and prayers sent your way...


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jan 13, 2012)

I don't know if you can post your location and a query for help for somebody to come assist you with euthanizing her.  If you were within driving distance I would do it but I am in WV. 

It is a messy method but your other option is to go ahead and give her ALL the pain meds you have, send her to lala land and get a very sharp knife.  I have done this once before when a gun jammed and it was a mercy killing. The goat had been attacked by dogs and wasn't going to make it. 


Also based on some of the symptoms you are mentioning it is how my doe with meningeal worm ended up going. She went blind, then couldn't stand, then couldn't move and just sort of had spasms.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 13, 2012)

I thought it might be MWorms, or Goat Polio, or Thiamine deficiency, or a numbe rof other issues....but she doesnt have all the symptoms of any of those, but does have a few symptoms of all of them!

She doesnt seem blind, isnt actually paralysed anywhere, isnt dehydrated, never walked in circles, had no obvious signs of being itchy in any areas, is STILL pooping and peeing. Just dont get it.....


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## Roll farms (Jan 13, 2012)

Sort of sounds like tetanus to me.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jan 13, 2012)

And remember that Mworm presents neurologically so the symptoms can and will vary depending on how far in the spinal column/brain the worms are.   


Seconding Tetanus as another possibility.  Our vet ruled it out with Daisy based on some reaction she had to either sound or touch and agreed it was a progression of the Mworm she had caught the year before and we thought was treated.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 13, 2012)

Yeah, the Mworms is hard to diagnose, but she seems to have more symptoms of that then anything.

She started with watery runs, but still ate and drank normally. Got the runs cleared up, and literally, the day after her poops were normal, she went down. the first day she was down, she would still stand up/walk a bit, but by the next day, she was laying down and coudlnt get up. the next day, she was laying on her side, head up, still eating, drinking. the next day, she was laying down, head down too, neck arched. Couldnt raise her head or anything. She has been that way for 2 or 3 days now. She still moves her feet occasionally and makes the occasional mmmeeehhh very dryly, but thats it. 

She is aware of us when we give her attention, flicks her ears, twitches her body, but thats about it. She poops, but cant move away, so it piles up by her tail. i go out there and move her away from it and clean it out.
She lets me give her water, drinks it from a syringe, as well as red cell + nutridrrench. I keep trying, hoping, praying.... I think she has given up. I think she has had a life of neglect and misuse. At the very least I want her to be safe and comfortable in her ending. I am out of pain meds and dont want to prolong her suffering. I dont want to stick her with any more painful needles anyway.

At least she knew love and caring at her most vulnerable time. This is and has been a painful lesson God is teaching me.


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## Roll farms (Jan 13, 2012)




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## Beekissed (Jan 13, 2012)

Do you have any relatives or neighbors with a gun?  A .22 would do it if the shot was placed well.  I'd urge you to explore this option and put her out of her misery...it sounds dreadful!


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 14, 2012)

Wanted to let everyone know, Ellie passed away this morning. 

I went out to check on her and she was barely breathing. I didnt know what to do, but told my hubby, we HAVE to do something. So we borrowed a 22, and dug a deep deep hole. My hubby went out to her and petted her for a moment while I got things ready to bury her. He was walking in the pen when I got out there. We both went over to her and when I looked at her, I realised she had already passed. I checked her for a heartbeat and repiration for a few minutes, just to be sure.

Hubby helped me to bury her in a nice spot. I needed to work out my grief, so I spent about an hour and 1/2 cleaning out the barn, getting rid of soiled bedding and all traces of urine and droppings. Dont know what, if any, sanitizer I should use on what is left in there. I dont want to risk bringing in any new goats (I feel Sophie needs a companion), until I am past the concern that there may be contaminates of whatever killed Ellie still hanging around.


Thank you to everyone for your help and support all through this. I have learned ALOT. In a way, its a good thing. Now I have so much more knowlege and experience. I now have an medicinal arsenal that should help me get through just about anything my goats may toss at me, healthwise. Just wish it had a different outcome....

Any advice on how long to wait to introduce a friend for Sophie, and animal safe cleaners for the barn Ellie was in? I know I cant sanitize the whole area, but any ideas on just the barn? Barn has dirt floor, but had a layer of hay bedding on top of a layer of shavings. I cleaned it all out to the dirt, but there are still wet spots from urine. There are chickens and ducks in the same area, so I have to be careful of that.


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## Queen Mum (Jan 14, 2012)

I'm so sorry that you lost Ellie, but we all know how hard you worked to save her and hope you can take comfort in knowing that you did the best you could.  Ellie certainly knew it.   Animals know when they are loved and cared for. 

Ellie probably got some moldy food somehow.  From her symptoms it sounds like she had Listeria which is commonly caused by eating moldy food.  Since your other goat didn't get it, you are probably safe with just cleaning out the stall really well.   If you want to disinfect, take a solution of bleach and water and clean out all the hay and straw and spray the whole area with the bleach/water solution and let it dry well.  Then you should be good to go.  

Sophie needs to have a companion but will grieve for a while.  She will probably let you know when she is ready for a friend.  But you can help her a bit by spending lots of time with her for a couple days.  When she starts DEMANDING attention, that is when you know she is ready for a new friend.  

There is a special place in heaven for people like you who are gentle and kind hearted and caring for goats like Ellie.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jan 14, 2012)

I think you are almost always safe with a 10% bleach solution.  Keep the other animals out of there for a while until it dries but it should help.  If she had anything really contagious your other goat would probably have it by now. Still a good idea to be safe though. 


Another option is to scrape down to dirt like you did and put a layer of lime down and then new fresh bedding on top.


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## petfarm (Feb 26, 2012)

Hi,
I have also been all over the place trying to find out what is going on with my myotonic goats.  I read the post here and think now, that I may have an issue too with poss. the meningeal? worm thing?  Last fall one of my goats went down fast and died, she couldn't stand. I noticed some had patches where they wore off their fur. So I took several to the vet, including an old dog, rescue pig and baby goat who I noticed had thinning fur in spots or missing from scratching. I swore at that time it was mange, because the old dog (13yr old American lab) was developing a bad chewing issue with is front legs and the pig had sores and spots that were rubbed. The vet checked everyone and said no, it's not mange, tha the dog had a common issue with that breed when they get old.  He even did scrapings to make me feel better. Just incase he gave them all an injection of inverceptin (not spelled right at all) and told me they were fine. The dog then got worse, and had to be put down after over $400 at the vets, as his backside gave out and he was basically paralyzed. One goat ended up with pneumonia and died fast, while another 2 boys dropped months later, one died with in a day and the other I was able to save and he's still recouping, just no where near what he was. He too dropped and couldn't get back up. I continuously kept him picked up, giving him the colostrum/drench that you give newborns. Only then did he seem to be more stable, and I let him run loose in the fields during the day so no one else could knock him over.  My last was just this past week and my other baby boy just lost it all together with severe vertigo. Other than that he looked healthy. He could only lean to the right, hard right too. I first noticed him leaning on the fence trying to go thru it almost. Soon as I got in the pasture and picked him up, he went limp and curled up and folded over. He couldn't keep his bearings.  I took him out and let him go, he tore off for about a mile lap over the hill trying to catch his balance. I gave up running after him and he ended up a complete circle and collapsed. I spend the next 2 days trying to get him from folding over, it was horrible. I put his mother in a small shed with him (because he didn't appear sick and he was giving up, I thought it was poisoning or something environmental, putting her with him made him get up and want her comfort) & fed the newborn drench and water with a syringe and my god he started to come around.  Today he took some pellets and actually stood long enough to chew alfalfa. He's grinding his teeth hard though, but this evening he got better. His face is messed up from sleeping all night folded over on his head. I didn't want this to happen again so I made a makeshift neck brace out of cardboard and duct tape so he can keep his head straight and not let him pull to the hard right anymore.  Hope it helps, but am calling the vet again to ask for the wormer for that deer parasite.  Does anyone have a better Idea, or have any advice? Could this be from a bad round bail?, I keep it in a barn but also thought it was a patch of moldy hay that I didn't catch when I lost the last one?  Sound so much like the issues here in this post I had to get on and ask for help too. They've been eating and doing 1 & 2 just fine, looks as it should, one got anemic but is getting better. They have access to their minerals/ large fields to roam and get fed hay and sweet mix with small amount of corn every day. I now have them on some good alfalfa, boys get a lighter mix. My girls are all looking good other than the one boy and baby boy who are hanging on.  It's just crazy.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 26, 2012)

Really hard to say for sure. As soon as you see a weak back end, you need to treat with Safeguard dosed at 1cc per 7 pounds once a day for 5 days. Also give a shot of Ivomec at 1cc per 80 lbs (yes, inject it). Sounds like moldy hay can't be ruled out too.


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## Beekissed (Feb 26, 2012)

My sister is currently dealing with a lamb with these symptoms and the vet told her that it was meningitis.  She doesn't take good care of her animals though, so it could be anything.   She has spent a lot of money on this lamb that she will never see again.  I know it sounds harsh but I think I know now why the old sheep farmers just kill these lambs after the first day or so of symptoms.


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## bonbean01 (Feb 26, 2012)

I've been following this, but never had any advice so didn't post.  Have to tell you though that you did everything possible for this poor thing and I'm so sorry for your loss!


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## petfarm (Feb 27, 2012)

They were all treated with Panacur about a month prior to this. Their stools look good too. Isn't safeguard a wormer, or will it work for the M thing that deer get too? Can I give this to them this fast?  Lost the little boy, he would seem to get better until they slept at night., my other that was sick just fainted in a stream and almost died. Not sure if it's related, cuz when they faint, they can't pull their heads up. Never had that happen before and can't believe I was there to pull him out before he drowned. Took huge gasp  soon as I got his head up now he's hiding inside and not making his usual noises. Can't get worse..
Taking him back to the vet tomorrow before he's gone or if he's still alive.  This year is just too wet and no constant weather, I think it's making everything worse.


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 28, 2012)

pridegoethb4thefall said:
			
		

> Wanted to let everyone know, Ellie passed away this morning.
> 
> Any advice on how long to wait to introduce a friend for Sophie, and animal safe cleaners for the barn Ellie was in? I know I cant sanitize the whole area, but any ideas on just the barn? Barn has dirt floor, but had a layer of hay bedding on top of a layer of shavings. I cleaned it all out to the dirt, but there are still wet spots from urine. There are chickens and ducks in the same area, so I have to be careful of that.


I am so sorry.  

As far as cleaning up goes, I do not know that this works at all but I did it a few years ago when we had a sick sick goat and were treating all of them for coccidia/ heavy worm load.  I removed all the animals for a few days and had them stay in another part of the barn, removed all the food, water, and hay down to the bare dirt.  I got a sprayer (like from Menards, the kind you would use to mix round-up in) and mixed a strong bleach solution up and soaked the place, especially the ground.  The next day, I did notice that earthworms had surfaced and died so it could have killed other things too.  I let the place dry out completely before putting the food, water and animals back in.

ETA:  This of course won't do anything to take care of eggs/ worms/ other parasites outside the barn which is probably they picked it up..


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## ksalvagno (Feb 28, 2012)

Panacur and Safeguard are both Fenbendazole. Panacur/Safeguard is the treatment when they get Meningeal worm and Ivomec is the preventative. If they didn't have Meningeal Worm when you wormed with Panacur, then it would have no affect if they caught it after. Plus you have to use the high dose of 1cc per 7 lbs for it to be effective. 

http://www.shagbarkridge.com/info/menin.html  - This is from an alpaca farm but the same treatment, etc applies to goats.


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## petfarm (Feb 28, 2012)

It's pet semetary here, the goat with the neurological issues that I thought was dead, (laying under the mother, in a pile of hay, stiff as a board and not breathing, that I could see or feel) I left him for the next day upset as one could be. The morning after I got a shovel and hole ready, went to get the goat and he moved and cried out. His eyes were matted closed from being folded over his shoulder the previous 2 mornings (where I though he broke his neck) so it also appeared he went blind.  I rubbed his body all over, worked his legs and ran him outside to the house. I got more newborn drench, sweet mix and alfalfa, all of which he ate feverishly with syringes of water.  I still had the makeshift neck brace to keep him from folding over, and it appeared to be helping, as he was able to walk straight and hold his bearings now.  He also took off, running into every tree in front of him.  I made an appointment immediately and got him to the vet.  The vet also thought it was neurological, as if he might have been hit by another goat or ? but he had no marks, nor was he sick, or have a temperature.  He stays with the girls who are pretty lazy and stiffen and fall over before they could do anything exciting.  I asked for him to have vit b inject, and he also is getting a muscle relaxer, he did have some worms again but this wasn't hte problem. I must have not given him enough Panacur last month?  So I brought home Vit B inject. and more wormer for everyone jsut incase.
can't explain it other than he poss could have had a seisure or hit with a blunt object in the right spot?  Keeping him inside with needles 2xs a day, eye cream etc and hope he pulls thru.  Just seems when he lays down for the night, it wrecks him the most, I have to pretty much bring him back from the dead to get him going the next day.   I got a hard reality check on how dead a goat must be before giving up. Also was confirmed that he didn't have lysteria?  I'll call the vet on upping the dosage of Panacur, I have been instructed to give 1cc per 40lbs. overdosing only by no more than 2cc's sometimes. Maybe that's why I wasn't able to clear it completely on the last treatment. Thanks for that info.


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 28, 2012)

Whoa 

I would love to hear if you find out more on that one.  I hope things start looking up for you soon.


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## petfarm (Feb 29, 2012)

Both are fine as of now. The neurological problem seems to be subsiding, I changed the hay to alfalfa from another farmers field, I am worried mine got contaminated.  I never thougth about it, but all the goats started fainting like crazy after I started them on the last round bale from my one field beside a place that was blowing out the lines of a big natural gas pipeline.  I first thought it was moldy, but another farmer said goats won't eay moldy hay.  I never saw any signs of mold either, and the bales are barn kept dry. We also considered head trauma, but he has no signs of being hit or hurt like that. The little boy was competely fine and just lost it one day and acted like he lost his balance and his eyes were rolling back, he arked himself to fold in half, not able to straighten back up.  Am scared to use my hay now and getting it elsewhere.  Just glad he's getting better, he's on all kinds of meds to help with the motor skills, and he's got a neck brace to keep straight.  Long as he has that on, he can walk straight and not act like he's holding a wall up.  Does anyone know how often you can give vit. b inject to a goat?, I know it's good to give ,but is a second dose worth it? and how long after the first if it is safe?


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## ksacres (Mar 4, 2012)

I know she already died, but my first thought would have been pnuemonia.  Pen-G will not TOUCH it, and goats, particularly those that have been sick/rundown by something else are very susceptable.

Get some Excenel to have on hand, it's prescription, so you need your vet, but it will knock out tougher bugs.


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