# To Buy or Not to Buy - A Livestock Guardian Dog



## Ridgetop (Jun 23, 2020)

*To Buy or Not to Buy – a Livestock Guardian Dog*

This thread is meant for potential first-time livestock guardian dog owners, who have heard about LGDs and want more information. It is meant as a tool to help them decide on the need for LGDs, and their drawbacks. There are many stories out there of the amazing things these dogs have done but not too much is written about the drawbacks of owning one. There are definite drawbacks to owning a livestock guardian dog. I have owned many LGDs, mostly Pyrenees and Anatolians, over 30 years. As our neighborhood and guarding requirements have changed, we have changed breeds to adjust. The focus of this thread is to try to help first time LGD owners be successful with LGDs. I do not breed LGDs and have no financial stake in this. I simply hope that this may help avoid failure for some owners. There are too many supposed LGDs in shelters with bad temperaments, and physical genetic problems. Some of the LGDs in shelters have been ruined by bad training or bad owners and cannot be retrained into society.  Maybe this will help lessen that situation.  I am not going to talk here about how or where to _find_ a good guardian dog. I do touch upon _why_ you should buy from a reputable breeder, preferably after checking references from previous buyers.

Here I am going to address the question *“Why Get a Livestock Guardian Dog?”*

You have bought your dream acreage. You have brought in a few animals, goats, or sheep, some chickens. You planted a garden. You subscribe to Back Yard Herds and enjoy talking with like-minded people about your piece of paradise and your animals. *Life is good.

But *many of those BYH people are discussing their Livestock Guardian Dogs. They love their dogs and swear by their usefulness. *You *don’t have an LGD. You worry that you are a bad livestock owner. Occasionally you hear coyotes howling. You begin to think that you *must *own a Livestock Guardian Dog to be a good livestock owner. Now you are worried. You scour Craigslist for ads for Livestock Guardian Dog puppies or adults. One is advertised and at a bargain price . . . . !

*STOP RIGHT THERE!*

Before rushing out to buy your fuzzy little guardian, you need to take a good look at your needs, _and _at your property. Good livestock guardian dogs are not cheap. While they come at different prices, beware of the ones sold from Craigslist at rock bottom prices, or worse, being given away free. Your best bet is to buy from an owner with actual working dogs. Original cost of the dog aside, LGDs are *BIG*. They have been bred *BIG* in order to take down large predators. *BIG* dogs eat a *BIG* amount of food. They eat even more as growing puppies than they do as adult dogs. They are costly to keep. They require vet care, vaccinations – particularly rabies, good fencing to keep them on your premises, AND TRAINING. They require a commitment of at least 12 years. Let’s discuss your *need* for an LGD rather than your desire to own one or others saying you should have one.


Do you have a *real* predator problem in your neighborhood? If so, what *type* of predators do you have? Neighborhood dogs? Coyotes? Raptors? Larger predators? Where do you live? Have your neighbors had problems with loss of livestock? Have *you *lost livestock?
How much property do you have? Is your property *fenced*? Whether you have a half acre, or 50 acres you will need at least 5’ high perimeter fencing to hold your LGD. Your fencing costs will differ according to your acreage, and not in a good way.
Is your property fenced *PROPERLY? * You don’t just need fences, you need strong, tall fences. Do you have flimsy, broken, or missing areas of fence? Do you have 3 strand cattle wire? Chain link? No climb? Electric? Do you have perimeter fencing? Or just fencing around your sheep or goat pens? How high is your fence? Good fencing is crucial to a successful LGD experience.
A lot of issues with predators can be addressed through proper fencing. In fact, unless you have dog proof perimeter fencing do *NOT *consider getting a Livestock Guardian Dog. Without good fencing the Livestock Guardian Dog will just add to your problems. You will not be able to train the dog to stay within your boundaries. All dogs need to be confined to avoid neighbor problems, but particularly LGDs. Some LGD breeds are roamers and prefer to set their own boundaries. You need to choose your breed carefully to avoid problems. All LGD puppies are cute. All LGD puppies have potential. *All LGD puppies grow into very large dogs very fast. * Your small puppy problem can quickly become a very large adult dog problem.

I am not telling anyone to avoid getting an LGD. I have had many over the years and swear by their effectiveness. I *am* saying have proper fencing and understand the nature of LGDs *FIRST*. You don’t want to become an LGD owner who ends up disappointed because they did not do their research. There are too many ruined LGDs in shelters.

Here are some common misconceptions (or lies) about LGDs:

All LGD breeds are the same. *FALSE!*
All LGDs are calm, gentle natured giants. *FALSE!*
All LGDs are good livestock guardians. * FALSE!*
LGDs don’t need fencing since they will stay with their animals. *FALSE!*
LGDs don’t need any training and will know on their own what to do. *FALSE!*
You should not Interact with LGDs since they will bond with you instead of the flock. *FALSE!*
Puppies should be put out with the flock immediately and will instinctively guard. *FALSE!*
All LGDs are powerful enough to take down *any* predator. *FALSE!*
All LGDs will attack and successfully kill any predator that approaches the flock. *FALSE!*
First, not all LGD breeds guard the same way. Some breeds are known for keeping close to the flock. Other breeds guard a perimeter zone. Different styles of guarding do not work for everyone’s situation. Situations can change over the years. You need to understand what your situation is before selecting a breed. _Do your research._

Second, LGD individuals vary within the breed. Some are devoted to their flock, some guard the entire property, others prefer humans to livestock. It takes someone with experience to sort out a litter of potential LGDs. If you have a small property, either of the first two types will do fine. If you have many acres the first might be the one you need. The third LGD personality should go to a home where they will be a family dog and guardian. Again, what kind of protection do *you* need? _Do your research._

Third, LGDs bark. A lot. Loudly. Many (mine included) howl at sirens. Loudly. My dogs barking during the night is soothing since I know they are on duty. I am surrounded by 100 acres of open area. To *your* neighbors that warning barking might be cause for complaints to Animal Control. If you live in an area of close homes where the barking will be a problem with neighbors, do not get an LGD. If you have livestock zoning this is usually not a problem, check your zoning. _Do your research._

Depending on your predator species and number, one LGD may not be enough. If you live in an area surrounded by wolves cougar, and bears, you will need more than one LGD, possibly more than two LGDs, no matter how powerful or brave. In the case of reintroduced wolf packs, you will need several LGDs. Wolves are cunning hunters that hunt in packs. They use tactics worthy of a SEAL team. Your single dog or pair will be outnumbered and killed. Wolves remove threats in their territories. LGDs are threats.

To understand LGD behavior you need to do *more* research. LGDs are not like normal dogs. They reason. They have been bred for thousands of years to perform specific tasks. No matter how obedient they are at dinner time, if they perceive a threat nothing can call them back from their duty to repel it. They must be trained since puppies are babies and don’t know *how *to do their jobs. Instinct tells them they have a job to do, but lack of experience and sense can put them or your flock in danger. To be successful with your LGD, you have to understand their genetic coding, what it tells them, and what their instinctual behavior means. Experience with normal breeds will not help you here. LGDs are practically a different species.

First, you need to know that young LGD puppies are as much at risk from predators as your newborn lambs or kids. Until they are a certain age your LGD will not have the size, knowledge, experience, or savvy to come out ahead in a fight with predators. That is why they must be protected until they are large enough to avoid being eaten by the predators they are supposed to guard against.

*Most importantly you cannot train an LGD unless you know how it’s instincts tell it to behave. Too many people mistake the LGD’s actions and punish the dog when it is acting appropriately. Here are some examples of possibly confusing LGD behavior.

Because young dogs understand they could be at risk, some of their early behavior will confuse you. 
Example:*
Two large breed stray dogs wandered onto my property and were interested in my goats. Our 5-month-old LGD watched them approach with interest. Suddenly he raced out to meet them. Wow! I thought, *now* we’ll see some action! Instead of attacking them, Maverick started *playing* with the dogs. As they chased each other around they got farther away from the goats. Maverick sat down between the dogs and the goats and waited. The dogs approached again, and another play fest went on. This happened 3 times. Finally, the stray dogs wandered off, Maverick returned to his guard position and calmly lay down for a nap. Horrified at my LGD’s lack of ferocity, I immediately called the breeder to complain about my defective LGD. He told me that this was a normal guardian dog “play behavior”. Maverick was still a young puppy. He was outnumbered and out sized by the larger dogs. By initiating “play behavior” he had lured the predators away from the flock. He continued to do so until the predators lost interest and departed. I was assured that once he reached his full growth, he would not bother doing this. Several years later, 2 Rottweiler mixes tried to get inside the goat pen. Maverick did not waste any time he simply attacked them and drove them off. 
*LGDs think about what they need to accomplish.

LGDs base their guarding on the surroundings and predator load. Since you can’t smell or hear the predators, you don’t know what the danger is. The LGD’s behavior may make you think they are not working properly. Do not punish the young dog until you understand their behavior.
Example:*
A goat breeder bought a 6 month old LGD to guard her herd of goats. The dog was introduced to the goats without any problems. Their pen was attached to an enclosed barn but opened into many acres of open ground. Kidding season began. After the last kid was born the owner began letting the goats out into the field again with their tiny kids. The LGD began to drive the goats back into their barn from the field. When they were let out the dog would surround them and push them back inside, snapping and growling. Then he lay down in the doorway and refused to let them out. The owner was worried that the dog was “turning on” the goats. She complained to the breeder that the dog was not doing its job. She wanted the breeder to take back the dog and replace it. The dog’s breeder drove out to the ranch and assessed the dog’s behavior. After watching the puppy for several hours, she informed the goat owner that the dog was too young to protect that many goats in that large an acreage. The LGD realized It was unable to protect all the goat in the many acre pasture with its hidden areas, rock outcrops, and large brush covering. Since the dog couldn’t protect the goats in the field, it had decided to keep them in the barn where it could watch for danger approaching from the field. The dog reasoned that within the smaller area of the barn the goats would be safe. The goat owner was stunned. She fenced off a smaller area for the goats and the dog happily let them out of the barn. Her predator load meant the immature LGD could not protect that many goats in the large pasture by itself. The young LGD realized that and devised a solution.* 
LGDs solve problems.

LGDs will change their behavior to suit changes in the flock and on the ranch. Do not punish what you don’t understand until you find out what the behavior means.
Example:*
Kidding season, our Pyrenees bitch stopped her far reaching patrols and stationed herself in the barn with the babies and new mothers. She patrolled the perimeter in the morning and evening, then remained in the barn with the kidding does and newborns. When the babies were several weeks old and the birthing odors had dissipated, she abandoned her barn watch and resumed her normal patrols. If we had not known why she was staying in the barn, we might have tried to force her out of the barn onto the field.
*LGDs reason out problems.

LGDs have behaviors that may confuse newowners. 
Example:*
I never saw any of my other LGD breeds do this, only our Anatolians. Rika had not been with us long so I was still checking on her frequently. Our sheep disappeared from the field. I went out to look for them but nothing in sight, and no LGD either. Nothing in the gully. Then I saw movement behind the hay shed. I watched as Rika walked slowly out and looked into the gully. Her tail was up – a sign of warning. She proceeded into the gully and quartered it fastidiously as I watched. Finishing her search of the gully, she came back up and went behind the hayshed. Wondering, I had started toward the shed to investigate, when she reappeared leading the flock of sheep back into the gully to graze. I have seen this particular Anatolian behavior several times since. The sheep are rounded up and brought to a safe place by the guardian who then returns to deal with the threat. It is particularly common when there is only one guardian and no backup. If I had not waited to see what was going on, I might have scolded the dog for leaving her sheep. Luckily I had read about this behavior and was privileged to actually see a dog in action. 
*LGDs judge how to deal with threats.

With two guardians, the demographics often change.  Again, don't jump to conclusions that the dogs are not acting correctly.
Example:*
When you have two livestock guardians on patrol, the dogs will often share the guarding chores One dog might take the night watch while the other takes the day watch. This allows the off-duty dog time to sleep while always being available in the case of a predator attack. When the flock is threatened, the dogs react in different ways too. Sometimes they will both chase off the predator. Other times, depending on the threat, the stronger, more experienced dog will face the threat while the younger or weaker dog retreats to the flock as a second line of defense. If the threat is terminated by the first dog, it ends there. If the threat is greater than the first dog can handle alone, the second dog will join in routing the predator. If the threat is too great, the second dog may continue to guard the flock while the first dog falls back to join the protection around the flock. If you don’t understand this behavior you might think the dog who stayed back with the flock was a coward that did not protect properly, rather than recognizing this as a good example of pair protection. 
*LGDs plan and cooperate in protecting their flock.*

Livestock guardian dogs are one of the tools the rancher and small holder use to avoid losses of livestock. LGDs are specific to the situation and need to be carefully selected for the job and family. Getting the wrong LGD leads to finding so many LGDs in rescue and the local shelter. Most of these dogs have health or temperament flaws due to poor breeding, or have been ruined by bad training. While adopting a rescue LGD may show a good heart and make you feel good, *if you need real protection, I advise against it.* Many of these dogs were abandoned for good reasons – they attacked livestock, bit people, are unreliable in temperament, have health issues, etc. While some of them can be retrained it usually takes *years *to complete this retraining. In the meantime, you have a dog that will not protect your animals, and may be a danger to you, your animals, or others.

*If this is your first LGD,* *you don’t need any of these problems*. LGDs are unusual dogs and are hard enough to understand. Stay away from free or rescue “LGDs”. Buy from a reputable breeder with health guarantees. The reputable breeder will be ready to help you with any questions about behavior and training. “Reputable” breeder does not mean extortionate prices. There are many good breeders out there whose puppies are reasonably priced. Raising a litter of large breed puppies is not cheap. Get references, ask the right questions about health tests, and guarantees.

*“But I can’t afford the prices they are asking,” you say? *
If you can’t afford the price of a good dog, then you can’t afford the vet bills that come with genetically or temperamentally defective dogs either. A dog that requires expensive vet care will not be able to protect your flock consistently. It costs the same to feed a good dog as a bad one, but a good dog costs a lot less in vet bills and neighbor complaints. Or lawsuits when your rescue LGD takes down their pedigreed $1,500.00 stud buck or ram.

Here is my formula when pricing any dog:
$$ cost of dog divided by # of years it will live and be useful = the $ cost of the dog per year

Even an “expensive” dog will turn out to be surprisingly cheap when you do that math. If you consider the health guarantees and lack of costly vet care, your cost becomes even cheaper over the working lifetime of the dog. Save up for the right dog instead of rushing out to buy a cheap dog with no guarantees. 

Here is the breakdown on Puppy Raising 101. The reputable breeder doing those health tests and x-rays has to pay for them and they are expensive. That means $$$. Stud fees to a healthy sire who has also been tested can run up to several thousand dollars. More expense = $$$. A normal 110 lb. LGD bitch in whelp and nursing consumes a *LOT* of food. To grow healthy puppies the food has to be high quality. More $$$. The litter of 6-10 puppies are aggressive eaters, and good quality puppy kibble is expensive.  More $$$.  Then there are the vaccinations and wormings.  More $$$.  Are you starting to understand the financial investment the reputable breeder has in a litter of puppies? Reputable breeders don’t just hand over their puppies to the first person knocking at their door with a check either. They determine the compatibility of the dog and the buyer. Most of the puppies will be reserved in advance.  But reputable breeders often won’t sell to a person they don’t feel comfortable with. Their dogs’ reputations are on the line along with the breeder’s. This means they may keep a couple of puppies for 4 months or more before finding an approved buyer. Feeding these large puppies as they grow costs more $$$. The breeder when selling guaranteed puppies at $1000 is usually taking a *loss, *not making any money.

The normal LGD works effectively for 10-12 years on the family farm with normal nutrition and vet care. If you pay $1000 to $1800 for a livestock guardian dog with genetic testing, health guarantee, and the backing of the breeder in being available to help with training, that still equates to less than $100-$180 *per year of protection*! Now figure the cost of your losses in livestock for one year. In 2 years without an LGD we lost over $8,000 in ewes, lambs, and at term lambs. My 25 registered Dorper sheep and lambs are worth a lot of money, as well as proving my breeding program, and giving us enjoyment.  Will your LGD save you its purchase price in livestock? Mine have many times over.

Do your research and decide for yourself if you really need a Livestock Guardian Dog. Not everyone does. Sometimes, you just need better fencing and husbandry methods. If you decide you need a livestock guardian dog, get the best you can find.  You will sleep soundly at night.

*But do yourself a favor, buy carefully*.


Anyone with other opinions are welcome to please comment. This thread is my opinion only.  I buy my LGDs from breeders that have working dogs and that do testing for genetic problems. But 20 years ago, when LGDs were harder to find, I bought dogs that had no testing done from professional ranchers. Those dogs did come with a guarantee. If the dog didn’t work, shoot it and send them the tail. They would replace the dog. Ranchers’ livestock guardian dogs work hard for a living. The rancher can’t afford to pay for expensive operations or medicines for a dog that can’t or won’t work. Those dogs are removed from the gene pool by a bullet in the head. Selection of the fittest at its most basic.


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 23, 2020)

Best article I've ever seen on LGDs and should be a sticky in the LGD forum section.   I'll definitely be linking it to people who need it on other social media.     

One thing I see mentioned over and over wherever people gather and talk about LGD breeds is the "you can't fully trust a LGD until they are 2 yrs old or older, so they must be supervised at all times with the livestock until then".    That has not been my experience and to tell that to an inexperienced person like it's fact is just all shades of wrong.   I wouldn't keep any dog I couldn't trust for the first 2 yrs of its life, let alone one that is working with my livestock.  

Another area of need is teaching people about how to train these dogs~or any dog, for that matter~on working with poultry.   It's fairly easy and works well for most dogs and most breeds, but all the advice out there tells them they can't be trusted around poultry until 2 yrs of age, so no training until then will be effective.  

In addition, I see a lot of failure happening with these breeds due to being raised by people who don't set boundaries....most don't even know what boundaries to set and they don't have the personality or energy it takes to be a master to one of these breeds of dogs.   LGD breeds seem to be the new fad dog for the pet crowd and it's a disaster in the making.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 24, 2020)

AMEN! and AMEN! and AMEN!

This should be required reading for everyone considering their first dog. Buying from a good breeder with working dogs who TEST FOR HIP DYSPLASIA cannot be stressed enough. I have first hand experience with that. We bought a beautiful pup from a lady with lots of sheep, goats, pigs and horses. Working dogs, right? We adored our brilliant smart puppy and named him Sentry. Wise, calm, the perfect example of a working dog. At 9 months old, he hurt his back leg playing with the older dogs. He limped, it swelled up, when the swelling went down, it was plain that we had a problem. 

We know all too well the heartache and expense that @Ridgetop is speaking of. The vet called our young pup a train wreck, the worst he'd ever seen. I detailed his journey in the two threads below.

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/sentry-baymule’s-livestock-guard-dog.40052/






						Femoral Head Ostectomy and Hip Dysplasia in Sentry
					

Hip Dysplasia. Words and diagnosis that strike fear and grief in any dog owner. That's the words we got February 12, 2020. Our vet said he has never seen hips so bad in a dog so young and called him a train wreck.   We sure started out in a different place when we got Sentry. So full of...



					www.backyardherds.com
				




TEMPERAMENT! Oh, another winner! Yes, we did this one too. Our first Great Pyrenees, Paris was one of those free throw away dogs. We still have her, I call her the Psycho B!tch. While she did make a valuable addition to the farm, it took years of patience, slow training, to correct all the wrongs heaped on a young puppy. By the time we were gifted with her, she was a total mess. Chicken killer, turned out to be an EVERYTHING killer, and she still is. It took two years to turn her from a chicken killer to a chicken protector, and she made one of the fiercest, best chicken guard ever. She has channeled her hatred of every living thing into snakes. She kills everyone of them she finds. She also hates female dogs and has a death wish for all female dogs and most male dogs. After she got into an electric wire-put up to keep her from climbing the fence and taking off (yes, we did that one too)-Paris blamed my husband because he was standing close by on the OUTSIDE of the fence and tried to attack him from the INSIDE of the fence. There is no doubt that she would have bit him had she been able to reach him. There have been times that we seriously considered putting her down. Somehow, by diligent study, reading everything posted here on BYH and trial and error (lots of errors) I have attained the exalted status of the ALPHA B!TCH, and she listens to me-sort of. She is now 12 years old, still screwy, still a vicious killer, still gentle with chickens and sheep and adores children and would lay down her life for a child. Paris is location bound by her own insistence, to the backyard and side pasture that goes to the sheep barn. Even though she finally did make a good guardian, it took a LOT of work, YEARS, and she is still damaged goods. 

LGDs are not your "normal" dog. They do not want to fetch a ball or a stick. They do not live their lives waiting on your command, living only to please you. They are not a lap Poodle or a loving Labrador. This cannot be stressed enough. If you want a pet, get a pet breed. Most of us that have LGD's also have a house dog or a farm dog and they are vastly different from our LGD's. 

Being big dogs, LGD's get hot in the summer. They dig holes to the coolness of the earth to lay in to cool off. Our back yard looks like a mine field. Thank you Paris. There are favorite "look out" places in the pastures that are likewise pockmarked with holes, dug by our dogs. As it gets hotter, the holes get dug deeper. Solution? Fill them in, water down the earth and start over. In fact, water the holes frequently for the dog's comfort. You don't have to fill them up, just wet the holes a little. If you are OCD and everything must be picture perfect, maybe a big dog that digs big holes isn't for you. 

SOCIALIZE Yes, socialize your dog. We realize our mistakes with Paris, she was a grown dog with issues when we got her. We took our next pups to Tractor Supply for treats to acclimate them to being off the farm and riding in the truck. Both are important for taking dogs to the vet. People who do not socialize their dogs will be doomed to taking them to the vet in a livestock trailer or paying for a farm call. Make those trips off farm something pleasant for the puppy and it will pay off. 

Very good post @Ridgetop!!!


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 24, 2020)

I have an akbash/great Pyrenees mix female named Dallas. She is 61LBS and she is a great dog! Although sometimes she trys to dig out, and she jumped the fence sometimes too! She is a great dog as I had said before! I would definitely recommend a LGD dog if you are in predator territory/area and has a herd of goats/sheep!


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 24, 2020)

Thank you all for your encouraging comments.  I see a lot of posts about people wanting LGDs to guard their poultry.  I do not have poultry, and I understand it is very hard to teach this skill to most LGDs.  They will quickly bond to small stock (sheep and goats) but poultry guarding must be taught.

I would love to see some articles posted by you LGD owners who have managed to train your LGDs to be effective poultry guardians.  How you did it, how to choose a good potential poultry guardian, etc.   I think an article addressing those issues would be very valuable to a lot of us.  (_I_ might even get a few chickens if I could train my dogs not to kill them!  LOL)

How about it guys?  BYH is more than a simple "chat room".  You all have good skills to teach.  Let's hear about your training techniques.


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Thank you all for your encouraging comments.  I see a lot of posts about people wanting LGDs to guard their poultry.  I do not have poultry, and I understand it is very hard to teach this skill to most LGDs.  They will quickly bond to small stock (sheep and goats) but poultry guarding must be taught.
> 
> I would love to see some articles posted by you LGD owners who have managed to train your LGDs to be effective poultry guardians.  How you did it, how to choose a good potential poultry guardian, etc.   I think an article addressing those issues would be very valuable to a lot of us.  (_I_ might even get a few chickens if I could train my dogs not to kill them!  LOL)
> 
> How about it guys?  BYH is more than a simple "chat room".  You all have good skills to teach.  Let's hear about your training techniques.


For goats and sheep what we did was leave Dallas(my lgd) in the house for about 1-2 weeks(of course she hated it) so after that she was in the goat pen for her whole life and has bonded great! Of course you need to train them like normal dogs so they know who is alpha and knows some commands so you be in control with them at all times! Hope this helps!


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Thank you all for your encouraging comments.  I see a lot of posts about people wanting LGDs to guard their poultry.  I do not have poultry, and I understand it is very hard to teach this skill to most LGDs.  They will quickly bond to small stock (sheep and goats) but poultry guarding must be taught.
> 
> I would love to see some articles posted by you LGD owners who have managed to train your LGDs to be effective poultry guardians.  How you did it, how to choose a good potential poultry guardian, etc.   I think an article addressing those issues would be very valuable to a lot of us.  (_I_ might even get a few chickens if I could train my dogs not to kill them!  LOL)
> 
> How about it guys?  BYH is more than a simple "chat room".  You all have good skills to teach.  Let's hear about your training techniques.



hello again! For poultry I would do some research, I know there is some good videos on YouTube for poultry guarding. The breed of LGD for poultry is a Great Pyrenees! They are super gentle! I would watch some videos and do research but I would try and get them when they are super young so you can train them! Again HOPE THIS HELPS!!


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 24, 2020)

My friend Erick, who breeds Anatolians, starts his puppies on ducks when they are very young.  He watches them carefully to correct them if they try to go after the ducks  He puts them in with older Anatolians who are already trained on the ducks.  He uses Indian Runners (what my youngest called "bottle ducks").  His adult dogs are trained not to go after poultry, but not all of them care for the birds much.  LOL  He said he has only a few that are truly devoted to the poultry!  LOL

They can definitely be trained.  I would love to hear how some of you have done it.  I don't keep chickens anymore.  My mother bred cockatiels when she retired, developed "Bird Lung", and died of it.  I noticed I was developing a terrible cough that lasted for months after I would clean the chicken coop.  It had happened years before too, when we had a cockatiel.  I would get a terrible cough after cleaning her cage.  I have decided not to keep any birds since I probably have an allergy to their dander.  If I had chickens again, they would have to be loose on the field with just a small coop with boxes to lay their eggs.  Not sure if it is worth the risk.


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Thank you all for your encouraging comments.  I see a lot of posts about people wanting LGDs to guard their poultry.  I do not have poultry, and I understand it is very hard to teach this skill to most LGDs.  They will quickly bond to small stock (sheep and goats) but poultry guarding must be taught.
> 
> I would love to see some articles posted by you LGD owners who have managed to train your LGDs to be effective poultry guardians.  How you did it, how to choose a good potential poultry guardian, etc.   I think an article addressing those issues would be very valuable to a lot of us.  (_I_ might even get a few chickens if I could train my dogs not to kill them!  LOL)
> 
> How about it guys?  BYH is more than a simple "chat room".  You all have good skills to teach.  Let's hear about your training techniques.








						Essay
					






					docs.google.com
				




here is a document I wrote for LGDs. I hope this helps! Also ANYONE CAN VIEW THIS


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Thank you all for your encouraging comments.  I see a lot of posts about people wanting LGDs to guard their poultry.  I do not have poultry, and I understand it is very hard to teach this skill to most LGDs.  They will quickly bond to small stock (sheep and goats) but poultry guarding must be taught.
> 
> I would love to see some articles posted by you LGD owners who have managed to train your LGDs to be effective poultry guardians.  How you did it, how to choose a good potential poultry guardian, etc.   I think an article addressing those issues would be very valuable to a lot of us.  (_I_ might even get a few chickens if I could train my dogs not to kill them!  LOL)
> 
> How about it guys?  BYH is more than a simple "chat room".  You all have good skills to teach.  Let's hear about your training techniques.


here is for goats https://docs.google.com/document/d/..._dVgM2A06RvE0v4ID2NgmfswW67_nZ9TLqDiP5HMD/pub


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 24, 2020)

Lovely article, Rylee.


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Lovely article, Rylee.


thank u


----------



## chickens really (Jun 25, 2020)

I have a Maremma named Finn. He was raised with Mini Horses. I got him at 5 months old. He was introduced to chickens when he was a year old. I have horses and he loves them dearly. 
Never killed a bird but laid close as they free ranged. I don't have Birds anymore. I got into goats and now they are something he protects too. He lays on the lawn when I have them out grazing and watches over them. 
He never wanders or leaves his area he protects. If the people next door are outside he will bark and stay up at the barn to protect my mini horse Teddy. He knows basic commands but definitely won't preform them like a circus dog. He's aloof with strangers but loves my family and friends that come to visit. If he doesn't want to do something their is no way of getting him to budge. He spends 90% of his time laying on the lawn so he can see the barn, goat pen and the driveway entrance. And if anything he thinks is a threat comes his way he has hackles up and barking as he runs to chase off the threat.
He never patrols my pasture though. He won't chase off coyotes beyond a certain point. He remains in his post to protect the animals. 
I have a Golden Retriver/Aussie that patrols and chases anything that comes on her turf. They make a great team. 
All my dogs are trained with the OFF command and they definitely listen because they don't like the scolding if they don't. 
We were not home one afternoon and my Sons friend stopped by to pick up a tool to borrow and Finn wasn't locked up. Finn wouldn't let him out of his truck. Finn has known him all his life but we were not home. He is very loyal and determined to do what he feels is correct at any given time. 
I'd definitely get another Maremma if I one day need a replacement for Finn.


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 25, 2020)

Here's one thing to offer.   Ben, a GP/Anatolian/Maremma mix dog I've raised from a pup of 2 mo. was recently given to a young couple with little children, who wanted a dog to guard their goats.   I gave Ben away instead of selling him, as I wanted the option for bringing him home if he didn't work out and that was the stipulation for the deal.   

The reason we even gave Ben away is because I couldn't keep him in electric fencing at all, especially when he heard gunfire or thunder.   These people had different types of fencing and he has stayed in their fencing just fine, bonded with them and their children very quickly and has done fine.....until yesterday.   

These people had never had a LGD before and I tried to educate her when she was here but I could tell it was going in one ear and out the other as she just wanted to love on him rather than see him as a guarding animal.   I asked her to read up on LGDs more and tried to give her the rundown quickly but I could tell she just wanted to get home with her new love muffin.   I was sure we'd get him back and we are, on Saturday.   

The reason?  He bit someone.   Ben, who has never offered to even growl at anyone, hadn't killed a single thing in all his 5 yrs though I really wanted him to do so~I had to personally kill 6 possum while he's on guard around the coop~and is gentle to a fault with little kids and anyone I introduce to him personally as "mine".   Ben is about as gentle as these dogs get, especially around humans...he just wants to be petted and loved on all the time.   One of those velcro dogs to the people he knows and anyone who will pet him all day long, be they family or not.  

Ben bit this woman's BIL and I can guarantee you that he was guarding~the kids and woman were present, as were the goats~ the man just wanted to pet a dog and insisted on trying to make friends while Ben was in full guard mode.   I can guarantee that the new owners did not try to supervise or manage this meeting, to let Ben know this person was acceptable and I know this man just kept walking in towards Ben to force some attention on him or on the children, for that matter.   I asked about these things when I responded to her message and she never answered, so it was user error all the way.    

I explained that ANY LGD they get can and will guard the family, the property and the livestock against any new person, even if they've seen them a couple of times briefly before, unless the owner manages that interaction.  Guarding starts with the barking and aggressive posture, if the person continues to advance towards the object the dog is guarding, the next step is more aggressive.   The owner's responsibility at that point is to manage both parties~tell the human to stop advancing until the dog has been reassured that this person is allowed to be in close proximity of the family or livestock.   Then make sure both parties understand, get a hand on the dog and give an appropriate command to stand down, back off, or whatever command one has established to let the dog know you have the situation under control.  Then supervise the meeting....and watch your dog at all times.  

My fault all the way for letting Ben go to someone with no understanding of these breeds and no personality that helps them gain the respect and control of one of these strong breeds....a person has to have some level of leadership qualities to fully control one.  My fault for not driving home the fact that, besides being a loving family dog, Ben is first and foremost a guardian animal and his instinct is always to guard.  

What's sad is they will now go get a LGD breed puppy and wind up years down the road with a dog they are fully attached to but may display the same behavior they cannot fully understand or control.   It will also bite someone who also doesn't understand you don't advance when these dogs are in guard mode and they will take it to the pound or have to put it down, simply because it was doing its job but didn't have any good partner to help them do that.  

Ben will come home to us and I'm glad they will take the time to bring him back, so I thank God for that.


----------



## chickens really (Jun 25, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Here's one thing to offer.   Ben, a GP/Anatolian/Maremma mix dog I've raised from a pup of 2 mo. was recently given to a young couple with little children, who wanted a dog to guard their goats.   I gave Ben away instead of selling him, as I wanted the option for bringing him home if he didn't work out and that was the stipulation for the deal.
> 
> The reason we even gave Ben away is because I couldn't keep him in electric fencing at all, especially when he heard gunfire or thunder.   These people had different types of fencing and he has stayed in their fencing just fine, bonded with them and their children very quickly and has done fine.....until yesterday.
> 
> ...


Yes. That's awesome your dog has you to come back too. If for any reason I couldn't keep Finn I'd put him down before I'd let him go to a new home. He is very committed and loyal to only us and his animals he protects.
A couple of years ago he followed Bindi up through the pasture and into adjacent pastures that lead into the next subdivision. A young girl was able to approach Finn and get his number off his tag. He hid under a car and waited to be be found. Bindi came home without him. My husband walked through the back pasture and had to pick up Finn at over 100 lbs and carry him up a stone flight of stairs. Finn isn't leash trained either. Once he heard me calling him he took off from my husband to the sound of my voice. When he saw me he jumped and cried, peeing on himself too. He has never left again.
They are not pets but a working Dog and in the right hands they are worth their weight in gold. ❤️🐶


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 25, 2020)

chickens really said:


> Yes. That's awesome your dog has you to come back too. If for any reason I couldn't keep Finn I'd put him down before I'd let him go to a new home. He is very committed and loyal to only us and his animals he protects.
> A couple of years ago he followed Bindi up through the pasture and into adjacent pastures that lead into the next subdivision. A young girl was able to approach Finn and get his number off his tag. He hid under a car and waited to be be found. Bindi came home without him. My husband walked through the back pasture and had to pick up Finn at over 100 lbs and carry him up a stone flight of stairs. Finn isn't leash trained either. Once he heard me calling him he took off from my husband to the sound of my voice. When he saw me he jumped and cried, peeing on himself too. He has never left again.
> They are not pets but a working Dog and in the right hands they are worth their weight in gold. ❤🐶



Putting Ben down was our first conclusion~after much trying at training to the fencing again and again~ but my granddaughter was raised with him and I thought she could handle it better if he went to another little girl to love on him.  And she did.   We won't tell her about him coming home, as he will come home and take a walk to the back of our land for his last day here on Earth.  I love him and he's bonded to me like no other but I won't keep him tied all his life just so he can live here with us.  I can't afford to change all our fencing.  I also won't keep trying to "rehome" him, just to keep him alive one more day.   Ben had a good 5 yrs but life on a line or dragging a heavy tire around is no life at all for any dog.


----------



## chickens really (Jun 25, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Putting Ben down was our first conclusion~after much trying at training to the fencing again and again~ but my granddaughter was raised with him and I thought she could handle it better if he went to another little girl to love on him.  And she did.   We won't tell her about him coming home, as he will come home and take a walk to the back of our land for his last day here on Earth.  I love him and he's bonded to me like no other but I won't keep him tied all his life just so he can live here with us.  I can't afford to change all our fencing.  I also won't keep trying to "rehome" him, just to keep him alive one more day.   Ben had a good 5 yrs but life on a line or dragging a heavy tire around is no life at all for any dog.


My heart breaks for you and I fully understand you for doing what you have too. ❤
They really are not pets as far as other Dogs are. I will be thinking of you and I honestly know you are making the right decision.  
Each breed has their own way of protecting  and in each breed each dog either is a patrol, guard or runner and you don't really know what they are till mature. I got lucky and Finn is a guard so stays with his animals and won't run. I don't have a fenced in property. Only between each lot we ran field fence but pasture is barbed wire. No fences out front.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 25, 2020)

That is a very sad story about Ben.  You have my support in what you are doing.  You are right in everything you said.

It is one of the reasons I wrote the post to familiarize people about LGDs and their differences from regular breeds.  These dogs are almost another species but so many people think just because they are loving with their family that they will be safe with strangers even when the owner is there.  If the dog thinks there is a problem and the threat does not back off, they escalate their threatening behavior, still no backing off by the threat, the dog WILL attack.  That is why we have them. 

When we got our Anatolians I was very worried about temperament.  They are known for being one of the sharpest of the LGDs.  I had to learn about how to handle them and train them.  This is after 45 years of owning, training, and showing sporting, hounds, and other breeds.  LGDs are not like regular dog.  Sadly, their size and sweet furry looks deceive people into thinking they are just big friendly dogs.  People that don't listen to your warnings and keep trying to approach your barking dogs infuriate me.

I told my husband that owning these dogs is like owning a loaded gun.  If you are careful and know how to handle them, they are wonderful, but if you are careless they can go off.  I never trust Bubba loose in the yard with strangers around.  I even am watchful of him with persons he knows that are not immediate family.  It is better to be safe than sorry.  We put the dogs in the barn with the young lambs when strangers are around.  It only takes one wrong move by a stranger or acquaintance to make the dog think there is a threat.

I would rather have people telling me what expert dog people they are and ignore them than have my dogs bite someone because I was careless and just assumed "They'll be ok".  We have to protect our LGDs just like they protect us.


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 25, 2020)

Agree 100%!  They are guard dogs first, pets second, if at all.  I've seen some that are not pets either, but almost feral.  

I've had an Akbash, a GP and then Ben, an Anatolian mixed with GP and Maremma, but these two Anatolians are a whole other breed of cat.   I am having to learn how to train an Anatolian as opposed to training a dog.  Not sure I like that aspect but I do like their more feral instincts than the Akbash and GP dogs I've had and known.  

I had always wanted an Anatolian but now that I have them, the jury is still out.   I really do love the Akbash, so my next dog in the pack just may be an Akbash if I can possibly swing it.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 25, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Putting Ben down was our first conclusion~after much trying at training to the fencing again and again~ but my granddaughter was raised with him and I thought she could handle it better if he went to another little girl to love on him.  And she did.   We won't tell her about him coming home, as he will come home and take a walk to the back of our land for his last day here on Earth.  I love him and he's bonded to me like no other but I won't keep him tied all his life just so he can live here with us.  I can't afford to change all our fencing.  I also won't keep trying to "rehome" him, just to keep him alive one more day.   Ben had a good 5 yrs but life on a line or dragging a heavy tire around is no life at all for any dog.


I am sad for you and Ben. I know you love him, but you also face reality head on. You tried to find him a safe home, but some people just insist on being stupid. If you tried again, it could turn out even worse. My heart goes out to you.


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 25, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I am sad for you and Ben. I know you love him, but you also face reality head on. You tried to find him a safe home, but some people just insist on being stupid. If you tried again, it could turn out even worse. My heart goes out to you.



Thank you, Bay.  I've never had to do anything like this before, with any dog I've ever raised, so this is pretty hard.  I feel like I've failed on this one and it hurt to even let him leave the land, let alone to have this happen and get him back under these circumstances.  He's got so many good qualities and it's hard to put down a perfectly healthy animal that has potential, especially when we've put so much of our heart into him.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 25, 2020)

Training a LGD to chickens.

My first LGD was a free throw away chicken killer. Paris. She is now 12 years old and is still a killer, just not chickens. LOL Her former owners left her alone all day on 3 acres with LOTS of free range game chickens. In case you don't know, chickens are the ultimate squeaky toy. They run, flap their wings and make noise. And when they stop flapping, just chase down another one! WHEEE!!!!

The only bad thing about chicken squeaky toys is that it tends to make people mad. I don't know what those people did to Paris, but by the time I got her at a year old, she was a mess, she blamed all her troubles on chickens and absolutely hated them. She would look around to make sure no one was watching, then rush the coop, snarling viciously. So did i pretend that everything is rosy in La-La-Land and let the chickens free range? Absolutely not! They stayed in their coop. 

Paris was and still is a screwy dog. She was timid, scared, and cowed down. It took time to earn her trust. She began to assert herself and "own" the yard. At that time we lived in town and she had the back yard. She chased away motorcycles she heard on the street, people were not allowed to walk down the street without her seeing them and barking. She barked the alarm at danger, be it a garbage truck on the next block, a cat or falling acorn. Because the yard was HERS, everything in it was also hers, including the coop and the chickens in it. 

It took 2 years to turn Paris from a chicken killer to a chicken guard. I would put her in the coop and she would desperately search for a way out. Scared. Then she discovered chicken feed. I let her in the coop to eat the feed and I sat in the doorway, blocking any chicken escape, praising and petting her. She beamed at the praise. When a young pullet eyed that luxurious fur and snagged a beak full, Paris instantly whirled, snapping and growling. I scolded, Paris, heartbroken, hit the dirt, rolled over on her back, pleading for my praises. The pullet stalked the big hairy monster and yanked another wad of fur with her beak. Paris did not react. I lavished praise on her, she leaped to her feet and got lots of hugs. It was finally time. We let the chickens out right before dark and sat in the back yard to watch. Paris did nothing. She never offered to chase or play with a chicken. She was their fierce protector. Why? Because I allowed her time to consider the chickens to be hers and "own" them. 

Ok, on to a new pup and chickens. New pups go on a leash, they are not allowed to run amok and get in trouble. When off leash, they are supervised. When a pup alerts on a chicken, they get an immediate no. If they persist, I get louder, more threatening, until they pay attention to me and submit. Submission can be  as simple as a soft posture or they come to me. I then praise them. I may turn my head and laugh, they can be so darn cute and funny. When our newest pup, Sheba, was chasing a chicken one day, I loudly said NO! Sheba ignored me and chased the chicken around the coop. I waited, 1 gallon plastic water container in hand. As the chicken and Sheba ran by, I lobbed the container at Sheba, hitting her in the butt while yelling NO NO NO. She yelped and chicken chasing suddenly didn't look like as much fun. I advanced, shaking my finger, scolding loudly and she was very contrite. There have been only a few instances since then where she alerted and I calmly said no. She broke her gaze away and looked at me.   

 I use some intensive training while they are young. If loose chickens are tempting, then lock them up. Better to have unhappy chickens in the coop than have them teaching a puppy to chase them. Let the chickens out late in the evening for short periods for training the puppy. Keep the puppy on a leash and walk him around. If he stares or gets too interested, correct him until he submits by looking away. The chickens will go back to the coop to roost as it gets dark, keeping the chicken lesson short. I put the puppy in the coop and fuss if they get interested in the chickens. I praise when they look away.

We have a Great Dane and Black Labrador cross named Carson. He loves to run and play. We also have free range guineas. Carson has devised a game with the guineas. The male protects his 2 hens and 4 half grown keets. He will run at the dogs to chase them away from his family. Carson instigates the male, running up to the group, then letting the male chase him away. Carson circles back, the male chases him away, Carson comes back, the male chases him away and Carson comes back, tormenting the poor birdie brain half to death. We don't scold Carson for this, we laugh until our sides hurt. Carson would not hurt the guineas for any reason, but enticing the male to chase him away is just too much fun. 

We had one dog that was a poultry killer. He came to us as a young dog, great dog in every way, beautiful blue merle Catahoula. He went into a killing frenzy, digging at the coop, focused on the chickens. I realized that this was going to continue, it was in every cell of his body to hunt and kill birds, it was in his nature. I could beat him for it, know it was futile, or find him a home with no chickens. A young couple got him and he made them a perfect dog. 

I tried ducks. Didn't work. Trip is our male Great Pyrenees, great with the lambs, sheep, ewes, ram and awesome with the chickens. So I got Muscovy ducks. I kept them penned for awhile, then let them out. Trip not only killed them, he ate them. I caught him with a half eaten duck and another dead one. he snarled and lunged at me. Oh no you didn't! I picked up a tree branch laying on the ground about 4 feet long and beat him with it until he retreated from the dead ducks. I yelled a lot too. I chased him with that stick. Ok, turn me in, I beat the dog with a stick for killing the ducks and dang near taking my leg off protecting his kill. I gave the remaining ducks away. Trip is back to being my awesome LGD. He just thinks ducks are on the menu.

So that's what has worked for me. Every dog is different, what works for me may not work for you.


----------



## chickens really (Jun 27, 2020)

I replied to a post about LGD on BYC this morning. 
Of course I got a negative response from a user that considers random breeds as LGD. Unfortunately just because certain breeds protect your property doesn't give them the classification of LGD at all. 
I tried to explain but I'm not sure if the person understands or wants to argue? Anyways I came back here with you people that are awesome..


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 27, 2020)

chickens really said:


> I replied to a post about LGD on BYC this morning.
> Of course I got a negative response from a user that considers random breeds as LGD. Unfortunately just because certain breeds protect your property doesn't give them the classification of LGD at all.
> I tried to explain but I'm not sure if the person understands or wants to argue? Anyways I came back here with you people that are awesome..



Mostly what I've encountered on BYC regarding LGDs is that people think that a farm mutt can't guard chickens as effectively as a LGD breed can, so they keep recommending people with chickens to get a LGD if their chickens are getting killed by 4 ft preds.    Well, not everyone should own a LGD, not every situation dealing with livestock requires one and often in small, backyard settings a simple farm mutt is enough firepower.   MOST of the time, in fact.  Since the forum is called BYC, most of the people involved are those with a small backyard flock and not in need of a rocket launcher when a simple .22 will suffice.  

I've had this very same discussion with the passionate LGD people who claim farm mutts can't truly guard livestock.  They can guard chickens and any livestock that are enclosed in a 1-3 acre fence just fine.   And, yes, they can even do so against coyotes if it's the right sort of dog.  Insisting that anyone with any sort of livestock can't keep them safe unless they have a LGD is one reason so many of these breeds are winding up in rescues.  My best chicken dogs were free dogs, Labs and Lab mix dogs.


----------



## chickens really (Jun 27, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Mostly what I've encountered on BYC regarding LGDs is that people think that a farm mutt can't guard chickens as effectively as a LGD breed can, so they keep recommending people with chickens to get a LGD if their chickens are getting killed by 4 ft preds.    Well, not everyone should own a LGD, not every situation dealing with livestock requires one and often in small, backyard settings a simple farm mutt is enough firepower.   MOST of the time, in fact.  Since the forum is called BYC, most of the people involved are those with a small backyard flock and not in need of a rocket launcher when a simple .22 will suffice.
> 
> I've had this very same discussion with the passionate LGD people who claim farm mutts can't truly guard livestock.  They can guard chickens and any livestock that are enclosed in a 1-3 acre fence just fine.   And, yes, they can even do so against coyotes if it's the right sort of dog.  Insisting that anyone with any sort of livestock can't keep them safe unless they have a LGD is one reason so many of these breeds are winding up in rescues.  My best chicken dogs were free dogs, Labs and Lab mix dogs.


Yes. I have Finn my Maremma that definitely is LGD and takes to my Horses and goats and he stays with them and won't leave them if he feels they are threatened. Bindi my Aussie/Golden Retriver I don't consider her an LGD but a wonderful guard dog that patrols my property with a vengeance towards intruders. Bindi chases off coyotes, stray dogs and kills muskrat and wild rabbits. Finn won't kill a muskrat because it's not his way to be a killer. He sounds the alarms and Bindi is off like lightning as he waits over his animals. Unfortunately people don't know the difference. A Blue Heeler won't guard the herd but definitely herd them and possibly chase off a few coyotes. Not committed to the herd though.
Many little ankle bitters can be great watch dogs because they protect their territory and people. Definitely can't classify as a true watch dog breed. 😳😂


----------



## Baymule (Jun 27, 2020)

chickens really said:


> I replied to a post about LGD on BYC this morning.
> Of course I got a negative response from a user that considers random breeds as LGD. Unfortunately just because certain breeds protect your property doesn't give them the classification of LGD at all.
> I tried to explain but I'm not sure if the person understands or wants to argue? Anyways I came back here with you people that are awesome..


You can't fix stupid.


----------



## Beekissed (Jun 28, 2020)

I posted some training tips to a FB page for Anatolians after folks kept asking me what I did to train a pup on chickens.  I'll paste a bit of that here, but a lot of the preface to chicken training I'll leave out...mostly about the importance of establishing leadership of the dog through proper leash training and teaching some basic commands.  I've been using this training on dogs of various breeds since 2008 with good success...until now, with the current pup, who has had it twice now and still wants to sporadically take a notion to lope at a chicken.   Not full on chase behavior, but definitely a start in that direction if not corrected.  She takes the correction well, responds appropriately, but later I'll see her do a little loping run at a chicken again, requiring another correction.   She's not a bit stupid, just very willful.  

*Chicken training(after proper leash training and training on recall)~*

_Select as calm chicken as you can get and truss its legs with a soft rope like a sisal baling twine or something similar. Do not catch the chicken in front of the pup...they are great mimics and anything you do to the chickens in front of them, they may repeat later. Never chase your chickens in front of your LGDs...they will think this great fun and try to help you. Never a good thing._
_
Sit the pup next to you and put the chicken on your lap. The bird may cry out or flap...if this gets the pup's attention, a soft jab in the neck and the correction word needs to happen(I use Atttttt!!!!!). The ultimate goal is that the pup remains calm no matter what the chicken does. That means no tension in the body, ears down, nose not quivering, nothing. Just a calm dog sitting next to a calm owner with an excited chicken. Pet the pup for calm behavior, sweety voice applications aplenty. Pet the chicken and say, "MY CHICKEN" in a firm, low voice. The pup may went to sniff the chicken...I let them for a second but if the sniffing starts to yield tension in the pup's body, I give the correction and jab. He may sniff casually and then no more.

 When he is calm, you are calm, the chicken is calm it's time for the next phase. Put the chicken on the ground out in front of you both...it will likely flap, squawk and try to move away....correct any overt attention from the pup at this behavior. The correct response to your correction is for the pup to look away from the chicken or duck its head while doing the same. Let the pup walk  
around the chicken and watch how he behaves when the bird gets excited....any perking of the ears, prolonged staring or tension in the body gets a verbal correction, which should make the pup break concentration on the bird and get his mind off it. If not, go back to square one on chicken training. I've never had to do that yet, but I'd recommend it if this happens...it's means something you've done wasn't absorbed by the pup.

As often as you can remember, when you correct the pup for any excited behavior towards the chicken, follow it with MY CHICKEN. Some people use "NOT YOURS" or "LEAVE IT". Any of those works. It's a more specific command than the AT sound and indicates this thing, in particular, is not to be touched. It's yours and not his. No matter what it does or sound it makes, it's never to be touched.

Then, when the pup is at his most calm, just walk away from the bird and the pup and leave them alone together....move away but watch the pup. Give the command if he tries to approach the chicken. Does he good response of moving away from it? That's good. Move out of the pup's sight but watch out a window, around a corner, etc. and any move towards the chicken, even a casual stroll past it, yell loudly, "MY CHICKEN!!!!". This gives the pup the idea that, even when you are not around, the chicken is off limits. The desired response to that is a ducking of the head and moving away from the bird.

 Next phase..and I usually do this right after the last one....have the pup lie on its side and relax, petting him until he calms but make it understood that he is to continue lying on his side. Any tension in the legs in this submissive pose indicates he is not calm. If he struggles and tries to get up, give correction word and hold him there, when he relaxes you can pet and praise him for being calm~slow, long strokes are best. Then lay the chicken across his neck. He may lay calmly or he may try to get up....don't let him, even if the bird is making a fuss. Show him that you want him to lie calmly with the bird on his neck. This may seem silly but it also shows him that the bird can touch him, even while he's in a submissive position, and he is not to react. His eyes may roll towards the bird and he may look terrified of it all, but in all things remain calm, expect him to be calm and the bird usually is calm as well. You know you've done well if the pup lies calmly while the chicken rests on his neck for a number of seconds.

Now, let your bird go and watch the pup as it runs away...the pup should not show any increased interest in the behavior or the chicken. Then let the pup remain free in the free range flock as you chore around, keep an eye on him as you do so....pups learn when they run to you that the chickens scatter. This is fun. Later they like to run through a crowd of chickens just to see them run...when they do that, give a verbal correction immediately. Every single time. If you see the pup doing what I call the slow herding move...a casual walking around a group or a single chicken, making it move away while the pup continues to follow~give a verbal correction. They are not allowed to herd them, no matter how slowly... they aren't allowed to lunge at, yip at, run at, or otherwise react to the chickens.

This monitoring portion all sounds time consuming but it's not. It's sort of like how you train your children...it's all done as you do other things. The pup will follow you around as you do chores and that's a good time to notice their behaviors towards the chickens, ducks, etc.

Now, you'll never know if you can trust him unless you trust him. So, his time unsupervised with the free range flock gets longer and longer each day....listen to your birds. If it sounds like they are being chased, pay attention. It could just be chickens fighting one another but check it out...this lets the pup know you are on guard. This also lets him know he should be on guard and be checking out the increased excitement of the chickens...not in a way that will get him excited, but in a calm way. Just checking. All clear? Fine. As you were.

Most of my dogs are rock steady on chickens at 2 mo. of age and onward, never harming a bird all their lives unto ripe old age and death. Various breeds, so this is not breed specific. All it really takes is a dog that respects you, respects the things that are yours and the training should help this to happen. The leash training establishes your leadership. The chicken training establishes that these are yours.

Don't trust anyone selling you a pup or dog who says they've "been exposed" to poultry, sheep, goats, etc. or even those who say they've been working with said livestock. Do your own training when they get to your land, as the dog may not see your livestock the same as those they've been guarding. Monitor and note increased excitement around your stock...if you see it, you need to do some training. I lost my best duck in trusting those phrases. I then had to train the dog on my birds~and the lambs, for that matter~ and he's never harmed a single one since. He is now on guard full time with the sheep at 1 yr of age, no older dog to assist.

Also, don't believe the myth that is stated like gospel that these LGDs can't be trusted around livestock on their own until after the magical age of 2 yrs. It's ridiculous and not a bit true. Imagine it, if you will...the dog wakes up on its 2nd birthday, looks at the calendar and realizes it is now time to be trustworthy around stock. I've yet to have a pup I've trained harm any stock and I start when they hit my land, no matter the age~usually at 2 mo. of age. I also expect them to work at guarding said stock when their training is complete.
_
_ I hope this helps! Any questions for clarification are welcomed.  _


----------



## rachels.haven (Jun 28, 2020)

I'd like to add, don't feel limited by distance when selecting a breeder. That was our mistake. Go find a good breeder and drive for the dog. Also, make sure they have had LGD for a good number of years-ASK.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 29, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> _ Do not catch the chicken in front of the pup...they are great mimics and anything you do to the chickens in front of them, they may repeat later. Never chase your chickens in front of your LGDs...they will think this great fun and try to help you. Never a good thing._



This is so true! I raised some Pekin ducks for the freezer when we still lived in town and Paris ruled the back yard. I let the ducks out in the yard to graze and play in the bathtub. They never wanted to go back in their coop for the night, so i had to round them up, telling them GO HOME. Paris saw me do this ONE time and there after she helped me round up the ducks to their pen. I could tell the ducks GO HOME and she would start rounding them up. To this day i can tell her GO HOME and she goes to her back yard. LOL LOL


----------



## chickens really (Jun 29, 2020)

My little Lucy is trained to wrangle chickens. She is fantastic. All the chickens were put in and she never missed one. She now loves to herd the kid goats in and very persistent too. 
I trained her with a volleyball and to use her feet and not her mouth. She boxes with her front legs. 👍


----------



## misfitmorgan (Jun 29, 2020)

Really great posts on LGDs!


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 29, 2020)

These training articles are wonderful.  I really think they should be posted routinely in the poultry section of BYH.  New people arrive all the time, and repeat postings of these articles would be wonderful.  

Beekissed and Baymule:   You have raised and trained both LGDs and problem LGDs and your articles and experiences are invaluable.  

Now, if only novice owners with read this and learn.  but how many times have we had people say they are getting or want an LGD, and that when they have time they will read up on them?!  The time is BEFORE you get the LGD (or goats,  or sheep, etc. ).  Don't wait till the problem is fullblown before thinking about ways to fix it!

Beekissed:  You are right about the differences between Anatolians and other LGD breeds.  It was one of the reasons I worried and got so much information from breeders before getting my first one.  I am still learning about this breed and all its possibilities.  Owning one can be like owning a loaded gun.  And as Beekissed said - a "howitzer"!  LOL

I would not own one as a regular household dog.  Some people do, but it takes a good judge to find that one pup in the litter that will suit being a household pet.  There are other breeds that respond to obedience training that would be good watchdogs and more satisfactory in a small property, neighborhood home, or even condo.  For now, with my sheep, this is my breed of choice.  Rika just turned 8 years old in May,   She will start showing her age eventually.  In another year or 2 we will be getting our fourth Anatolian, to take over some of the load as Rika starts to slow down. We can never replace Rika though, she is the standard of perfection against which we judge all LGDs now.    Eventually, if we get too old and decrepit and must retire to a standard neighborhood  we will *not* have Anatolians. They are special dogs for special circumstances.  But I hope we never have to end up off the farm! LOL


----------



## SpaceBus (Jul 1, 2020)

I consider a LGD breed like Maremma sheepdog or Kommondor, but the cost to feed a few 100 lb dogs adds up. We have three alpacas that will push my GSD around, so they might work out for foxes or raccoons. We are waiting on 25 chicks to arrive in a few weeks and we have a lot of eagles, osprey, and mustelids (ermine, weasels, etc.). For these threats I think a few LGD would be a much better deterrent. 4+ lbs of meat every day is the number one thing keeping me from purchasing any LGD. I constantly go back and forth on this.


----------



## Jessica C (Jul 1, 2020)

This is a great thread. I’m fairly new to LGDs I currently have a 14-month old GP on five acres with goats and chickens. He came from a ranch and several generations of working dogs.
I’ve raised, trained and competed with working GSDs so I thought I knew dogs well enough. 
He is more like a cat in temperament. Eats very little for such a big dog. At 6-12 months old he barked a lot - now it’s more decisive. I’m fortunate to have neighbors who aren’t bothered. I’ve lived other places where this definitely would have a been a neighbor issue.

He’s smart as hell, you can see the wheels turning in his head.
He’s a good chicken guard. Started him at eight weeks old among the flock and he has never harmed a bird. But, I obtained his sister at four months old and she would grab chickens and lick them to death. She never bit. She just plucked them down to the flesh. Someone told me to give the dogs fish or wheat germ oil supplements to dissuade this. 
I don’t know if it works.
I lost her at 6 months old from intestinal torsion. It’s not bloat or obstruction; it was the twisting of the intestines to unknown cause that caused rapid tissue death. In the morning she was fine; in the evening the emergency vet told me there was nothing she could do to save her. They couldn’t find the cause. Said, sometimes it just happens. But I wondered and after this, I made sure no fiber or string or any other similar material was in my pasture. Puppies chew and play on such things. 
My rancher has done no health testing but watched her lines and culled for issues. My boy has dropped only one testicle and the vet can’t locate the other so we’re in for an expensive neuter at 2 years old. I’m on a waiting list for an Anatolian female pup from a breeding planned in Fall. This breeder upholds extensive health and behavioral standards on her dogs. I love the Pyrs but I’m in hot FL and my boy, at least, matts. Sometimes this leads to hot spots. So I wanted a shorter haired LGD for his upcoming partner. 
My main predators are coyotes and roaming or loose domestic dogs. It only took a couple times of me acting like a screaming idiot in the pasture to a hawk for my boy to alert to flying predators now, and look up. I’ve had NO losses since he reached four months or so. So he’s effectively been working this whole time, and not yet two.
He gets the occasional jerky teenager zoonoses and runs at a goat but I yell (or blow the air horn) and it stops.


----------



## Jessica C (Jul 1, 2020)

Jessica C said:


> This is a great thread. I’m fairly new to LGDs I currently have a 14-month old GP on five acres with goats and chickens. He came from a ranch and several generations of working dogs.
> I’ve raised, trained and competed with working GSDs so I thought I knew dogs well enough.
> He is more like a cat in temperament. Eats very little for such a big dog. At 6-12 months old he barked a lot - now it’s more decisive. I’m fortunate to have neighbors who aren’t bothered. I’ve lived other places where this definitely would have a been a neighbor issue.
> 
> ...


I wanted add a few things:
I have good, five foot fencing that I topped with hot wire, and ran hot wire coils at the bottom of all gates. My dog (and goats) hit this when they first arrived and now respect it 100 percent. 
My biggest difficulty with my LGD is he hates riding in a vehicle. It’s a struggle to get him in and he lets me know how miserable he is for every second of any ride. He lets me do anything to him, but passive resistance in a 100+ lb dog is a thing that can be a pain. 
He is separated by a fence from my house dogs, a GSD and a bulldog. He was playful with them as a puppy, but I’ve seen him posture and mark the fence around my male dog. Same sex aggression is a thing with LGDs as well. I’m keeping them separate to avoid any fights and because they have separate duties anyway. 
I’ve always fed him separate from goats and chickens because of a breed type tendency to resource guarding. He eats on and off, slowly, but I never wanted him to feel he had to defend his food so he eats in peace. 
He has no interest in typical dog toys but he does enjoy large plastic containers, shredding paper plates and an occasional raw marrow bone. He hoards all these things in a special pile, like a dragon.


----------



## Beekissed (Jul 1, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> I consider a LGD breed like Maremma sheepdog or Kommondor, but the cost to feed a few 100 lb dogs adds up. We have three alpacas that will push my GSD around, so they might work out for foxes or raccoons. We are waiting on 25 chicks to arrive in a few weeks and we have a lot of eagles, osprey, and mustelids (ermine, weasels, etc.). For these threats I think a few LGD would be a much better deterrent. 4+ lbs of meat every day is the number one thing keeping me from purchasing any LGD. I constantly go back and forth on this.


Mine eat the same amount as a 50 lbs dog.


----------



## rachels.haven (Jul 1, 2020)

SpaceBus said:


> 4+ lbs of meat every day is the number one thing keeping me from purchasing any LGD. I constantly go back and forth on this.



My adult 125 pound LGD eats 3 cups of "super premium" dog food per day and remains overweight and only takes mini snacks at her dish all day like an overfed dog (probably not going to eat too fast and bloat that way, so I'm happy). If I put out any more than three cups it's still in the bowl at the next morning feeding. Once an adult you might be surprised on feed amount.

 And we get the nice stuff for her since she eats so little. We want concentrated nutrition if that's the way she's going to be, but I personally would not raw feed her. She'd probably stash it around the yard and not eat it and THAT would be smelly and disgusting. Also, she gets really food aggressive around the little raw meat we have given her, so NO WAY. All her stashes would be gross landmines and when discovered by human or animal I'd worry she'd go nuts and someone or something would get hurt. Nothing but the cooked boring for her.


----------



## Baymule (Jul 1, 2020)

@Jessica C you sound like you got a good grip on how LGDs behave. Your dog is lucky to have you.


----------



## Jessica C (Jul 1, 2020)

Baymule said:


> @Jessica C you sound like you got a good grip on how LGDs behave. Your dog is lucky to have you.


Thank you! I feel like I learn something new every day.


----------



## SpaceBus (Jul 1, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> My adult 125 pound LGD eats 3 cups of "super premium" dog food per day and remains overweight and only takes mini snacks at her dish all day like an overfed dog (probably not going to eat too fast and bloat that way, so I'm happy). If I put out any more than three cups it's still in the bowl at the next morning feeding. Once an adult you might be surprised on feed amount.
> 
> And we get the nice stuff for her since she eats so little. We want concentrated nutrition if that's the way she's going to be, but I personally would not raw feed her. She'd probably stash it around the yard and not eat it and THAT would be smelly and disgusting. Also, she gets really food aggressive around the little raw meat we have given her, so NO WAY. All her stashes would be gross landmines and when discovered by human or animal I'd worry she'd go nuts and someone or something would get hurt. Nothing but the cooked boring for her.


I don't feed my dogs raw meat, I cook it first, but a dog is supposed to eat 2% of their body weight in food every day. I feed my dogs Merrick kibble and supplement with cooked down chicken bones and whatever we don't eat off the whole chicken. First I make broth with the chicken carcass and then puree the solids with dog friendly vegetables. Perhaps some individual dogs are less active and need less food, but generally speaking a 100 lb dog should be eating 2 lbs of food per day. Often non-kibble foods are heavier because there is water in them. Think about how much a burger or piece of meat shrinks when you cook it, the size difference is the loss in water. 


Still, it is expensive to feed multiple 100 lb dogs, especially if they are working dogs. I say multiple dogs because I would never keep a single lonely LGD, there would have to be at least two.


----------



## rachels.haven (Jul 1, 2020)

My point is that they will tell you how much THEY need and once past puppyhood you may be surprised how little it winds up being. Lgd don't care about numbers.


----------



## Silly_me (Jul 1, 2020)

I may be the odd man out as they say, but I adopted a 6 month old Maremma that was living chained under a backyard deck in the suburbs. She had never been in contact with any livestock and got her for a couple hundred bucks about 18 months ago. 
At first I only had rabbits and had just started with some ducklings and I introduced her gradually, removing her when she got too playful. There have been no issues of harm done to the animals. She just loves being with them.
My 5 acres are not fenced except for the small barnyard area and she does go visit the neighbours on either side as they always have a treat for her and then she comes back. she Takes off barking into the woods daily to let the coyotes and bears know she’s the boss I suppose but comes back shortly.
Now we have added a goat and a pig and all is well. Bella does eat alot but I’ve always had big dogs so I’m used to that.


----------



## Baymule (Jul 1, 2020)

Silly_me said:


> I may be the odd man out as they say, but I adopted a 6 month old Maremma that was living chained under a backyard deck in the suburbs. She had never been in contact with any livestock and got her for a couple hundred bucks about 18 months ago.
> At first I only had rabbits and had just started with some ducklings and I introduced her gradually, removing her when she got too playful. There have been no issues of harm done to the animals. She just loves being with them.
> My 5 acres are not fenced except for the small barnyard area and she does go visit the neighbours on either side as they always have a treat for her and then she comes back. she Takes off barking into the woods daily to let the coyotes and bears know she’s the boss I suppose but comes back shortly.
> Now we have added a goat and a pig and all is well. Bella does eat alot but I’ve always had big dogs so I’m used to that.


You are not the Lone Ranger. We had 2 Great Pyrenees that had never seen sheep, one was a year old, the other was 5 years old. There was a learning curve, these dogs are awesome.


----------



## chickens really (Jul 7, 2020)

@Wild Bug Ranch 
Ask these people for help with your dog.


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 7, 2020)

ok


----------



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 7, 2020)

@Baymule @Ridgetop 

I have a 9 month old female Akbash/Great Pyrenees puppy that is guarding my herd of goats. My show goat who is new to showing is not showing anymore because of activities my LGD dog is doing to her. This morning my LGD dog Dallas playful attacked Dixie and she is bleeding front and back legs. How do I stop this?


----------



## Beekissed (Jul 7, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> @Baymule @Ridgetop
> 
> I have a 9 month old female Akbash/Great Pyrenees puppy that is guarding my herd of goats. My show goat who is new to showing is not showing anymore because of activities my LGD dog is doing to her. This morning my LGD dog Dallas playful attacked Dixie and she is bleeding front and back legs. How do I stop this?



First, that's not playing.  Even when dogs play with one another I never see blood.   That's predator behavior, so you have to treat it like that.  You'll need to do some leash training with this dog to establish a relationship with her wherein you are the authority over her, her pack leader.   Use correction words for undesirable behavior during these walks, make sure she's not walking you...ever, the desired goal with leash training is that she walks beside you on a loose leash.   She stops when you stop, make her sit each time.  She goes when you go, turns when you turn, she doesn't stop and sniff or pull towards a distraction, etc.  Give plenty of praise and treats for good behavior, instant correction for any bad.  

Every day, make this a routine until she is responding to your corrections, watching you for cues on how to behave properly.  Then work her with the goats on a long lead, so you can grab that line to give a physical as well as a verbal correction for any overt excitement around the goats...especially when they run.   That's usually when pups get excited and want to chase, jump on or otherwise harass the livestock.  

When not working with her, I suggest she be tethered in the goat area but not near where they eat or drink.  You might use a large, soft rope for the tether instead of the usual plastic coated wire...that will help avoid any injuries to the goats that may become tangled in her tether.   

Correct every single wrong behavior around the goats...barking at them, lunging at them, jumping up on them, snapping at them or any and all chase behavior.   Keep at it, be consistent and watch for appropriate responses to your corrections~immediately stopping said behavior, moving away from the goats with head down and tail down, lying down away from the goats, etc.   

I'd try that first and see what happens.   If none of that works after several days and even weeks of working with the pup, you can escalate to a shock collar....usually these dogs only require a vibration given at the appropriate time, so I'd try that first.


----------



## Baymule (Jul 7, 2020)

Start over at square one. Go back to the basics. Tether the dog near the goats as Beekissed said, but not when you are not home. Only put her with the goats under supervision. Do not even pen your dog next to the goats as she can chase up and down the fence and reinforce the bad behavior. Take the dog out.


----------



## rachels.haven (Jul 8, 2020)

x3 I used this technique on our puppy/dog for chickens before he neurologically self destructed. And he got it-it was probably the last thing that got through before the doors of opportunity to learn closed for him and he started falling apart. And to the end he respected those darn chickens, and guarded them when he could. If anything is going to work, that will.


----------

