# Treating strongyle worms any adice??



## Georgiamainers (May 26, 2011)

Irish's fecal came back that she is positive for this type of worm.  I'm reading Safegaurd/Panacur isn't much helpful.  Vet suggested Ivermectin. 
I have a baby I'm feeding the goats milk and I can't afford to toss it.

l've had her on weekly herbal dewormer.


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## elevan (May 26, 2011)

> Sheep and goats are affected mostly by the strongyle (meaning round) family of worms. In warm, moist climates, the *barber pole worm* (Haemonchus contortus) is the primary parasite affecting small ruminants.


Ivermectin is gonna be your best route.  Safeguard / panacur are NOT gonna help here.  If you don't get rid of the problem you're not gonna have a goat to milk.

And I would say stop wasting your money on the herbal dewormer because it obviously didn't help.

eta:  I'm not against herbal remedies that are proven but when tests come back to the contrary of them working then they are a waste of money imo.  So please don't anyone take offense to my suggesting that in this case the OP stop using them.  Preventing worms is a full on management project and involves many factors.

Here is a possible solution / management to prevent future problems (that is natural but should not be considered the be all end all and doesn't offer immediate treatment results only prevention / management)


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## Georgiamainers (May 26, 2011)

How long do you toss milk on the Ivermectin?


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## elevan (May 26, 2011)

Georgiamainers said:
			
		

> How long do you toss milk on the Ivermectin?


From fiascofarm.com



> Milk withholding time:
> 
> In the US: 36 days
> In the UK: 14 days
> ...


eta: I personally use the 14 days...but it is up to you to decide what is best for you.


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## Georgiamainers (May 26, 2011)

I saw that on Fias and said "Whoa! 36 days!!!" :/


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## elevan (May 26, 2011)

Georgiamainers said:
			
		

> I saw that on Fias and said "Whoa! 36 days!!!" :/


IMO the US tends to go overboard on precautions especially when there isn't a lot of research behind it.  So rather than doing the research and putting in a proper number we tend to over exaggerate the precaution.


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

I've drank it (for years) w/out tossing it after giving Ivo...

*shrug*

I know they use it on humans, it doesn't bother me any, either mentally or physically.  I'm not saying anyone else should, just that I don't and I'm still alive.


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## mossyStone (May 26, 2011)

I have to agree, I dont toss my milk after worming.

 I also use ivermection on my birds and still eat my eggs....
 I also l use herbal wormer most of the time but if a fecal  were to comes back i needed help I'd use what i must..( i havent used Ivermection yet this yr  fecals are good)

 I also do not worm just because.... I worm only when  needed.


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## Georgiamainers (May 26, 2011)

My 10 month old baby boy is on raw goats milk as are the rest of the little ones- I don't want them to get tummy cramps or worse.    Me and hubby, we'll make it!


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## elevan (May 26, 2011)

Georgiamainers said:
			
		

> My 10 month old baby boy is on raw goats milk as are the rest of the little ones- I don't want them to get tummy cramps or worse.    Me and hubby, we'll make it!


I would say when your talking about giving the milk to your *{HUMAN}* kids then you should at least go by the UK milk withdrawal recommendation if not the US one.

_{Disclaimer: You must decide what to do for your family and everything said on this board is based on personal experience and opinion only. Opinions on this board are not given by doctors or healthcare professionals and should not be taken as fact.  Please consult your doctor or healthcare professional before making a decision that may affect you or your family's health}._


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## Goatmasta (May 26, 2011)

Just wondering what gives you the idea that a "herbal dewormer" is safe with no withdrawal period?


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## freemotion (May 26, 2011)

Not saying I disagree or agree with anything said here so far.....but.....not all herbal dewormers are created equal.  Some people say they use an herbal dewormer and they are using DE or tobacco.  Others use a purchased formula.  Others make their own.  So the word "herbal" only means that it is from plants (so DE is not herbal, but I've noticed in the discussions on herbal dewormers that many classify DE incorrectly as herbal) and is a very general term.

Some of the recipes I've found online or that were sent to me when I was researching the whole idea of herbal formulas were on the strange side.  The weekly ones tend to be weaker and they should be used along with stronger formulas used every 6-8 weeks for a few days and in the few days after kidding.  The stronger ones will be heavy on the wormwood and black walnut hull powder.

So before deciding that herbal dewormers aren't working on this particular property, it would be good to know what is actually being used and how much, etc.


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## Georgiamainers (May 27, 2011)

I'm using Hoegger's herbal dewormer which has no milk dumping or withdrawal time for slaughter. It contains worm wood, gentian, fennel, psyllium, & quassia.  Maybe the herbal treatment would be a good preventative.  We have only had these does since Feb.  

Also, I looked at their eyelids yesterday and both does had much pinker eyes than they've had so that's a good sign!.  Reason I took a fecal sample in is because Irish keeps having these huge clumpy poops.  She eats a lot of sweet feed at the milk stand because she won't let me milk unless she has grain.  I wonder if she's getting overfeed.

Her stools went back to normal milkduds for a time when we were throwing her lots of pine needles/branches.  So, I started that again.  
They'll get to browse in the pasture more once it dries out here!

The vet recommended I try the Panacur (or Ivermectin) and see.  I think I will.


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## freemotion (May 27, 2011)

You can also try a double dose of the wormwood formula for 3 days in a row as is suggested at www.fiascofarm.com.  

I would go straight to ivomec if the fecal count was high or if the eyelids are light pink or worse.

My does will get clumpy poo if I give more than a quart of grain on the milking stand.  For my cranky doe, I add alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp to slow her down for hand milking, along with carrot peels and any prep scrap we might have from our kitchen.  You don't need to soak the beet pulp, but I find it really slows them down if that is what is needed, and doesn't add to the clumpy poo issue.


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## Georgiamainers (May 27, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> For my cranky doe, I add alfalfa pellets and soaked beet pulp to slow her down for hand milking, along with carrot peels and any prep scrap we might have from our kitchen.  You don't need to soak the beet pulp, but I find it really slows them down if that is what is needed, and doesn't add to the clumpy poo issue.


Going to try this, thanks!   She's getting two huge bowls of grain and we try to milk her fast!  

Any thoughts on this formula?  http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3741&cat=0&page=1

I don't know how high her count was.  Should I call and ask??  Vet office called and just said she tested positive for strongyles.  That's all I got, plus the treatment recommended.


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## freemotion (May 27, 2011)

I personally wouldn't use that formula without doing a bunch of fecals along with it.  Actually, I would not be using primarily an herbal formula if I was not able to run fecals myself so I can monitor the effectiveness on my property and with my goats.....now I know that one doe in particular is quite vulnerable to worms when she has a big stress during the worm season.  Now I watch her closely.

I've only been using the herbals for 2-3 years and with a very small herd (down to 5 recently from 7, not including kids since they will all be sold).  I'm far from an expert but I am a nerd so I do a lot of reading and have a microscope!   I really want a sweatshirt with "Farm Nerd" on it! 

I would call the vet's office and ask if the count was high, moderate, or low, and then ask if it was on the high or low end of whatever the answer is.   Low and low-moderate I'd do the 6 doses of herbals and test again a few days later.  high-moderate and up, or if the eyelids don't go to dark salmon a few days after the herbals, I'd go right to ivomec orally, or if the eyelids get light at any time during herbal treatment, indicating that it is not working.

I made my own mix this spring and also bought some wormwood seeds....my goal is to grow all the ingredients myself, ultimately.  Homegrown herbs tend to be more powerful.


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## Georgiamainers (May 27, 2011)

Could I use the wormwood formula I already have (herbal dewormer from Hoegger's) or get something else?


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## freemotion (May 27, 2011)

Probably the formula you have would be ok....but wormwood is not safe during pregnancy and I believe that Hoegger's formula says theirs is safe during pregnancy so I wonder how much wormwood it actually has.  The rules for labeling for safety are different in animals than in people, so that could be why it is labeled as safe, though, and not because it is not strong enough.  I'd use it if I had it, and then check the fecals again.  Unless.....like I said before, it is severe or FAMACHA shows that it is not working fast enough or effectively enough at any point during treatment.  

I do love to experiment, though, and have keen observation skills, so your mileage may vary (normal disclaimer!)  I don't mess around when lots of crap is going on in my life and my observation skills are not operating at peak efficiency.


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## Goatmasta (May 27, 2011)

Just making the observation that the "herbal dewormer" says it is safe but has not been tested because it is "herbal"...  Wormwood can cause numerous issues including damage to liver, kidneys, and nervous system...  FYI...  Not saying you shouldn't use it, just that "drugs" have been tested and have withdrawal periods for a reason...    If it were me I would use a withdrawal period for both!


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## elevan (May 27, 2011)

Let's please be careful not to turn this into a debate about chemical vs herbal dewormers.

And please remember the OP's biggest concern stated was that they are feeding this milk to a HUMAN INFANT.

No one should use ANY treatment without first thoroughly getting all of the facts from MULTIPLE sources and following ALL precautions.


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