# Livestock Guardian Dogs



## rockdoveranch (Jan 4, 2011)

I spent a lot of time researching LGDs after a neighbor's dog came onto our land and killed a ram lamb.  That was several years ago and we have not lost a lamb or sheep since to any predators.

In our state you can shoot and kill a dog on your property if it is harassing livestock, or has been known to kill livestock, but this is really not something I want to have to do.  The problem with the neighbor's dog was resolved when we sent them a certified letter asking them to keep their dog contained, adding that we know our legal rights.

I have never had a working dog, or a dog for protection, and have only seen working LGDs once, and that was when we bought our White Dorpers last year.  Most of the dogs were Pyrs, and a couple Pry/ASD mixes.  They had about 17 dogs in all.

From what I have read, the Anatolian makes a superior LGD to the Great Pyrenees, however I have never been comfortable with breeds that can be aggressive for any reason, and worried about the children who live on adjoining property.  I like the Pyrs, but have read that they sometimes wander, and sometimes like to guard from the other side of the fence.

I still think about getting LGDs from time to time, especially now having learned someone in my county has Pyr pups they are wanting to give away.  The parents live with goats.

I would be interested to learn what breeds members here use to guard their sheep, or if you are using donkeys or lamas, or like us, nothing at all.   If you use dogs, do you handle them at all?

Thanks.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jan 5, 2011)

I don't have a livestock guardian of any kind right now, but I would love to get a dog someday. Well, I'd like to get a dog now, but I worry that it would bark all night and bother our few neighbors.  :/  I would probably get a Pyr or a cross.  

I used to have a small donkey, but he was very aggressive with any animals smaller than he was, even after he was gelded.  "They" say not to get more than 1 donkey because they will bond to each other and not to sheep, but I have seen how miserable single donkeys are, and I would not subject one to that. Donkeys are way too smart to be left alone with boring ole sheep.   

I probably wouldn't get a llama either, because I'd rather not have an animal that spits on me if I make it mad.


----------



## jodief100 (Jan 5, 2011)

I have goats and Great Pys guarding them. Occasionally they get out of the fence and they wander for a little while and then come back.  Because of this I make certain they cannot get out of the fence.  They also bark- a lot.  My male has a booming bark that you can hear about 2 miles away.  

If we didn't live out in the boons I am certain my neighbors would complain.

They do a great job guarding the goats.  I have seen them chase off hawks and coyotes.   I have chickens outside the goat pen that free range and we have never lost a one.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

We got or first LGD pup in November.  He's only 4 months now, so all I can say at the moment is that it's amazing how quickly and strongly he bonded with the goats and he's growing at an unbelievable rate!  He's out of working parents and I've been really impressed with his temperament so far.  

We have a senior dog who has done a great job of keeping stray dogs off the property but she's getting up there in years and I wanted to have an LGD trained and ready to go before we lose her.


----------



## lilhill (Jan 5, 2011)

We have a Great Pyr that is fantastic with our goats.  She does bark, and lets the coyotes and stray dogs know that she is there and on duty.  And yes, we handle her all the time.  If you get a dog, especially a large dog, and can't handle them, then you're asking for trouble.  They have to know that even though their job is guarding the livestock, you are still the boss.  Don't know what we'd do without our Daisy.


----------



## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 5, 2011)

i'd have an Anatolian in a hot second.. but we dont have enough livestock to justify having a 'one job dog' to live out with the barnyard crew. 

however i have 2 big shepherds who guard me (and the property) and we just got a pup - from a hunting breed. 

our dogs keep the neighborhood dogs off the property and we got the hunter to handle our varmint problem (my shepherds herd not hunt). i also spend a lot of time training our dogs to help me work the property so they are invaluable. i wouldnt leave them in the yard with the goats unattended, but they do help me get everyone rounded up and keep the mean roosters off me. but this is a lot of work that is successful because i'm home with them all day.

however, a big territorial dog is not for everyone. so if its not your thing consider improving your fencing (electric) or one of the other flock guardians (like a donkey). there are some good threads around her about LGD's that might help you understand how the do - and do not- work. 

good luck!


----------



## KellyHM (Jan 5, 2011)

Just a quick question.  For those of you that do have LGDs (specifically GPs), can they be trained to get along with the other dogs in the household?  I'm interested in getting one eventually, but am not interested in having dog fights 24/7.  Are they intelligent enough to be told (by me) which animals are allowed to be on the property and defend against others?  Or are they too single-minded?


----------



## rockdoveranch (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for their great input.  I am still stuck on having never had a dog that was used for any type of protection.  I am back to doing a lot of reading.  Perhaps I should visit the lady with the pups and see her adult dogs at work.  

I was raised with Boxers and currently have a 15 year old pup.  I also have a German Wirehaired Pointer that came to us as a stray a few years back.  I had never had a pointer before and did a lot of research on the breed before bringing her home.  She is so devoted to me that she pays no mind to our free ranging chickens and ewes, and cats.

Kelly, You might find this article interesting - http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/companimals/guarddogs/guarddogs.htm

I was in another group when our lamb ram was killed and most the people there had ASDs.  In fact if I talked about Prys I would get private emails from ASD owners telling me not to consider Prys.  I believe my personality leans more towards the Pry, although I love the look of the ASD.

Several of the people in the earlier group had LGDs that roamed freely though their acreage and trusted them with their children, and all their other animals.


----------



## adoptedbyachicken (Jan 5, 2011)

Maremma is another breed to consider.  They are less aggressive but really effective.  All mine have managed to keep my poultry safe without contact with any coyote or raptor, they prevent entry and if challenged harass and chase.  The breed is known for not getting into fights and thus preventing injury and Vet bills.

With humans, especially kids you get 2 typical Maremma reactions, one is to stay away, very aloof and the other is very submissive and crawling up to be petted.  To a certain extent how you raise them socially will determine this.  All mine have allowed any dogs that I tell them to allow.  Even visiting dogs, they often act disgruntled but they allow if I say so.


----------



## dianneS (Jan 5, 2011)

I have a 3/4 Karakachan 1/4 Great Pyr.  He is wonderful!  He will be two in April of this year.  Last year about this time, he gave me a hard time when he was going through his teenage phase, but we got through it and he's an amazing dog now.  He was guarding right from day one when we brought him home as a 5 month old puppy.  He had been living with livestock since birth.  But with the cold weather and boredom as well as adolescence he gave me a hard time for about two months.  He was playing too rough with some of the goats and was escaping.  Some hot wire and discipline, as well as the addition of a full-sized (I only had dwarf breed goats) doe who would put him in his place and taught him some manners!  He's now a perfect dog.

This winter I was expecting him to have another outburst with the onset of cold weather, but no, not at all, he's been a perfect gentleman.  He's a super guardian too and really bonded to his herd.  He's very mature already for a LGD.  I think Karakachan's mature faster mentally than a lot of other LGD breeds.

I was concerned that the 1/4 great pyr might make him want to wander or be with people more than his goats, but no.  I have no hot wire for him at all anymore.  He knows he could dig his way out or even jump the fence, but he chooses not to.  If a gate accidentally finds its way open, my dog actually comes to the house to get me and shows me that the gate is open.  He runs ahead of me and right back into the pasture where he belongs!  He supervises while I secure the gate and of course I thank him for notifying me.  He really likes when I show appreciation for his hard work.  I should get him an employee of the month award.  

Oh and I've never had a breed of dog used for protection before this either.  I have two small dogs (7 and 10 pounds).  My LGD gets along with them just fine.  He loves the smallest one.  I'm not sure he knows she's a dog, he just thinks she's pretty cool to play with.  Now if my sister brought her GSD to my house, and her dog chased or threatened the goats, I think we'd have a different situation on our hands.  I don't think my LGD would have any issue with another dog unless that dog threatened his herd.  Same goes for people.  My dog is suspicious of people but he instinctively knows the difference between a friendly stranger and a threatening or suspicious one.  I would completely trust him with children as well.  Now that he's maturing and not jumping up and romping around as much I don't have to fear him accidentally knocking a child over and I really don't think he'd ever show aggression towards a child, but when it comes to kids you can never be too careful.

I wouldn't hesitate to have a full-blooded great pyr as long as it came from a guardian background with two working parents and is raised with livestock from day one.  I think pyrs get a bad rep as being wanderers and preferring people to their herd due to them being bred for pets.  The people who owned my farm before I moved here had two great pyrs and one of the dogs died three days after the entire sheep herd was sold.  They think he died of a broken heart.  He's buried in my pasture under a walnut tree "to be close to his sheep" I was told.

Good luck in your search for a dog!  Let us know what you decide!  I highly recommend them.


----------



## Beekissed (Jan 6, 2011)

KellyHM said:
			
		

> Just a quick question.  For those of you that do have LGDs (specifically GPs), can they be trained to get along with the other dogs in the household?  I'm interested in getting one eventually, but am not interested in having dog fights 24/7.  Are they intelligent enough to be told (by me) which animals are allowed to be on the property and defend against others?  Or are they too single-minded?


GPs are intelligent and social dogs if you take the time to socialize them....big sweethearts.  Yes, they can get along with your house or yard dogs and they definitely know the difference between what is yours and what just strayed onto the property.

I had a GP/lab mix that was wonderful for my livestock....yes, she loved to wander but she always came home.  Most people in rural areas know a GP when they see one and realize these dogs are not likely on their property to do harm....too big and slow/lazy for chasing deer and generally leave livestock alone.  Not aggressive towards humans, particularly when they are off their own patch of land.  

I only had small acreage, so I was able to contain mine with wireless fencing.  

I just talked to my breeder, who had two GP pups this past spring.....he had a raid on his sheep flock by a family of bears that killed 25 lambs in one night.  They killed more in the next few nights as well.  The pups were really too young then to be effectual but now that they are grown, no losses of any kind have been noted.  

He just added a third GP....said he was majorly impressed with the breed and they are going to save him a bundle in coyote and bear losses!  I've met his dogs and they are the sweetest love bugs, though they live out with the sheep.


----------



## puredelite (Jan 11, 2011)

After losing not only lambs but grown goats as well to coyotes I got a Pyr pup a couple of months ago. He is 5-6 months old and going thru a bad "teenage" stage where he wants to play too rough with my too-early 1 mo. old lambs. After injuring their hind legs I now have him temporarily on a chain when I can't be around to supervise him. He runs loose at night when the sheep are locked in the barn. Tried a llama for a while but he didn't really stay close to the sheep. Have mini donkeys but they tend to hang together  and not with the sheep. My pup does bark a lot and hope that will keep the coyotes off the property. Any suggestions on how to keep the pup from thinking that the sheep are play-toys? Or is that something he will just have to grow out of?


----------



## ericajune (Jan 11, 2011)

We are getting alpacas in the next week or two..as soon as the fence is finished.. that is a whole nother story LOL... anyway.. they are coming with a GP/ASD.   She was raised with these alpacas and knows them and is a good guard dog and as sweet as can be.  

My question sounds kind of silly now that I am typing it... but nevertheless... I am a single mom with one 12yo dd at home.   We are low in elevation enough that our only predators are coyotes.   If Tessa sounds the alarm... am I running out there with a gun??? I know she can't fend off a whole pack of coyotes.. so I guess I am the back up... hoping that if I shoot one off in the air, they will disperse.   I am encouraged because the people behind us have a flock of goats and have never lost a goat to a predator in 15 yrs and have no guard... so even though I hear the coyotes, maybe they will leave us alone...


----------



## adoptedbyachicken (Jan 11, 2011)

Canines are territorial and will respect each other's turf.  She needs to establish your place as hers, and she will not feel that way for a bit.  After that it may take a bit for the locals to respect her.  For the most part you need to just let it happen and don't disturb the process.  However there is the odd occasion like a swarming where you need to step in.  Yes firing a shot in the air will disperse the coyotes but you need to ask how the livestock react, if they are use to it, and how your LGD reacts.  Are they used to getting back up from gunfire?  You yelling and swinging a broom can be just as effective if your coyote population is not human tame.  Often a flashlight will spook them badly too.  Her barking is not a call for your help, it's telling them off, so don't go out and disturb her every time she is doing her job.  Honestly the only swarming I had was frighteningly silent, the barking and howling was over, but I saw what was going on while cooking dinner out the window.


----------



## jodief100 (Jan 12, 2011)

puredelite said:
			
		

> Any suggestions on how to keep the pup from thinking that the sheep are play-toys? Or is that something he will just have to grow out of?


Discipline. You have to let the dog know this is unacceptable behavior.  These dogs have guarding instincts but they still need some training.  

With time and good direction from you, he will learn.


----------



## dianneS (Jan 14, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> puredelite said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I second that!

Discipline was the only thing that stopped my dog from playing too rough with the goats.  They're stubborn at that age, but smart and they do learn.  It was hard to catch my dog in the act, but if I did he got a firm scolding.  If I found a goat with a bloody ear, I would immediately tie him up.  He did eventually make the connection.  I also used a muzzle for a while.  That worked well since he could be with the goats, but not harm them.  He could still bark too.  We don't have any coyotes in our area yet, but they are nearby and on the way, so I didn't feel that our dog would have been in any danger by muzzling him.  We did about 2 months of the tying and muzzling until we finally broke him of his bad behavior.  He's been great ever since.  Also a big tough buck, ram or doe will teach him manners!


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi RDR,we had Maremmas about 25 yrs ago when we had the goats and as all of our goats had horns the pup was soon taught what was except able by way of behavior...........When we changed to Suffolk Sheep  we found that they were to noisy and unsettled the sheep especially at lambing time,they finally passed away of 'old age' and we never replaced them and now use a combination of 1080 and spotlight shooting to control the fox population. I think we are lucky as we only have 'foxes and stray neighbors dogs' to contend with.We have some internet sheep farmer friends in WY who have GP's and they "swear"by them as livestock protectors.......With you being in Texas the 'heavy 'coats of the GP's may become an issue........We also found that in the 'bonding' process(we used to start the pups in a barn) if you gave the pup somewhere safe to retreat  to the mothers would not let the pup 'knock around ' the little stock.............The other thing we found with the Maremma's was you always kept the original stock with the dog ,you add others over time ,but always kept the starters I used a special color ear tag,so the dog was never accidently separated from "his" stock....................Hope the above is of some value............T.O.R.

Quote:Knowledge only increases in value when it is shared.


----------



## Mrs. Mucket (Jan 24, 2011)

We don't have sheep or goats, but we do have two wonderful Maremmas! I can tell you about how they are with children and other dogs. We got great advice from our breeders about introductions, orientations, and adapting to situations. A LGD will quickly learn what is normal and acceptable to you, and respond to what is not.

We have 11 grandchildren from baby to teens, so any dog we got had to be good with kids. Our breeders trained our dogs with their children from the start, and when the dogs came to us they took to the kids right away. They will instinctively protect any animals or people they bond with. Our dogs will let the kids hug and lay on them but they are always alert and will run off across the field to investigate a perceived threat. 

We went through the proper introductions with our own little dog and our kids' bigger dog who comes to visit. The Maremmas accept them, but we would not let other dogs go into an area that is strictly the Maremmas' domain (like a livestock pen). Our Maremmas patrol a fenced area that includes our home and barn as well as the chicken coop and runs.

We got LGDs because bears and a cougar have been seen on our property. Since the Maremmas arrived, we have not seen a single sign of any predators inside our fences. We've seen bears and coyotes outside the fences, but the Maremmas let them know they are not welcome.

We are so impressed with these dogs. They are relational and friendly when appropriate but they know when to do their job.


----------



## russellmary (Feb 25, 2011)

My husband and I were driving past our sheep fence last night and witnessed a dog - looked like a yellow lab mix - getting into the sheep fence. It's an electric fence too. Our three huge livestock guardians just let it in and started playing with it!!!!!!! We were shocked. 

A ram lamb came up missing the other day, and I wonder if this dog chased it off. My husband chased the dog off in the truck while I checked to make sure all our sheep were accounted for. My husband said he would have run it over but thought I wouldn't want him to. I said I wouldn't have minded and that I was just wishing I had a gun - not to be spiteful or anything, but another dog is a serious threat to our sheep. Dogs should not be free to harass other people's livestock. The dog had a collar on. He was shocked by the fence on his way out.

Anybody heard of this happening before? What should we do about it? I'm very concerned about this. I can't believe our dogs let him in!!!! Our dogs are males. Maybe we should get a female too? Maybe this other dog was a female?


----------



## jodief100 (Feb 25, 2011)

If your male dogs are intact and the other was a female in heat then they will let her in.  

I do not keep intact males for this as well as many other reasons.  I have plenty of sources for good LGD's so I have no need to breed my own.


----------



## Mrs. Mucket (Feb 25, 2011)

RussellMary, my understanding is that instinctively, LGDs will usually not let anyone or anything in their domain that does not usually belong and is not OK'd by the alpha (which would be the owner). 

We have seen that with our own Maremmas. One day some frequent visitors that the dogs know well came over and brought some other mutual friends the dogs had never met. The dogs let the friends they knew come in but they wouldn't let the other friends (who the dogs had not met) through the gate. Once we went out and told them the new people were okay, they were fine.

I don't know how long you've had your LGDs--it possible they know this other dog as an acceptable visitor from the past? The fact that all three dogs welcomed it is an interesting factor. 

I agree with Jodie, if it was a female in heat, intact males might bend their rules. You know--sometimes it's easier to ask for forgiveness later than permission beforehand?

In any case, I would do what I could to reinforce the LGDs' training on the perimeter. If I were ever out when that dog (or any other animal) came near, I'd be very clear about my disdain for and rejection of that animal. You might also do some perimeter walking with the dogs to refresh their memory.


----------



## carolinagirl (Mar 2, 2011)

I have been researching LGD's until I am blue in the face in the last 2 months.  I finally decided that an Anatolian Shepherd is the one for me.  I have a deposit in with a breeder in Florida for a puppy later in the summer.  Anatolinas are fantastic with children.  They are calm and gentle and only exercise the level of aggression that is necessary to protect their sheep or human family. 

I ran across a fantastic LGD resource though.  this link has numerous articles on LGDs, ranging from behaviour problems, training, health and everything else you'd need to know.  Hope it helps!

well, pooh....since I am a new member it won't let me post a link.  so the web address is  LGD dot ORG/Library dot htm

 

Cindy


----------



## Mrs. Mucket (Mar 2, 2011)

Another awesome source of help is Jackie Church at www.windancefarms.com. Jackie has the most knowledge and understanding of the LGD mind of anyone and anything I have come across in several years of LGD research. She does individual consults for behavior, training, and orientation challenges.


----------

