# scours frustration



## goatsintheopen (Oct 25, 2011)

May has no fever, eating and drinking acting like herself ..BUT  yesterday started having watery poo and still today..the poo isn't AS watery but loose .. been giving her Pepto, Gatorade and Probios... can't think of what could of caused this other than a big roll of fescue we put in for the herd.  they normally eat Alfalfa and orchard grass.  however the color of the waste isnt' green...it's a light brown and foul...   thinking worms.. but wormed her yesterday..nothing really changed..  The other 4 are perfectly fine..no issues.

She's going to the vet in the morning..   was hoping it would be nothing and would clear today.. still hoping it's nothing..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 25, 2011)

When I'm dealing with persistent, watery or really runny, foul, brown-colored scours, I don't immediately think _worms_..  I think bacterial gut infection, like e.coli or salmonella, something like that...and then I think worms...and then coccidia...and I treat for all three, ASAP.

If she were mine, I wouldn't wait till morning..  I'd give her:

a)  6ml spectinomycin (scour-halt / scour-chek) OR 6ml of oral neomycin
b)  safe-guard dewormer, 1ml/10
c)  ivermectin or cydectin dewormer, orally (you can find dosages on here for the various types)
d)  di-methox (find dosages here)
e)  begin her on a round of injectable anti-biotics.

Does that sound like a shotgun approach?  Absolutely.  Which it should, because it is.    But I've learned the hard way, more than once, that the watery brown type of scour is NOT to be messed with, and I'd so much rather be called a 'shotgunner' than have to dig graves.  Besides that, vets and docs shotgun meds all the time and hardly anyone criticizes them for it so long as the patient lives.

Just my $.02.  Good luck with her.


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## goatsintheopen (Oct 25, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> When I'm dealing with persistent, watery or really runny, foul, brown-colored scours, I don't immediately think _worms_..  I think bacterial gut infection, like e.coli or salmonella, something like that...and then I think worms...and then coccidia...and I treat for all three, ASAP.
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> If she were mine, I wouldn't wait till morning..  I'd give her:
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> ...


Thank you. I appreciate the reply.
 I did give her the Safe Guard last night and unfortunately, I don't have Ivernectin or Di-methox and I don' t have any injectable anti-biotics.. either   nor do I have scour halt.(_will be getting some though after this_)  Pepto was recommended to me by a number of goat owners round here  the last time I delt with scours, and it worked ..but not working this time... 
 ok now I feel like a bad goat owner for not having all that on hand..  Lord willing she'll be fine until I can get her to the vet in the AM... I'm wondering if you're correct in what you think it could be.. although with an infection, wouldn't she have a fever of some sort?


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## autumnprairie (Oct 25, 2011)

I am still new but I would say to keep her hydrated, I am not sure how fast scours will dehydrate her. And I will be going to the store also and getting these things also. ( dont have them either :/ ).


do we have a list of what should alsways be on hand? I have seen the ob one but not the other.


Good Luck , I hope she will be ok.


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## Roll farms (Oct 25, 2011)

Scour Halt and DiMethox, along w/ ivo and safeguard, are some things I *must* have on hand.  And Probiotics.

I've only ever used scour halt on one adult, but I'm glad I had it here.

I agree you want to stop the scours, but I'm of the opinion you should also stop the CAUSE of the scours....treating w/ pepto alone, unless it's just a dietary issue, is just masking the issue.
Sort of like trying to put a bandaid on a major cut that needs stitches.  Yeah, it'll help, but it won't stitch the cut or keep it from getting infected, if you know what I mean.

How old is she?  If she's a kid, I'd worry about coccidiosis.  
Adults, I'd be more inclined to think worms.  
Or bacterial, but truly random gut infections aren't real common - they do happen, but it's not something I've dealt w/ frequently.

Please keep us posted on what the vet says.  Good luck w/ her.


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## elevan (Oct 25, 2011)

Make sure that your vet knows to do the extra float for coccidia...it takes about 8 minutes longer than a standard fecal and you often have to ask for it.


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## kstaven (Oct 26, 2011)

In all the threads here I am surprised to never see Gelatin mentioned when one encounters scours.


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## Roll farms (Oct 26, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> In all the threads here I am surprised to never see Gelatin mentioned when one encounters scours.


Well, I don't recall seeing you suggest using it anywhere...?   
I've never heard of it as a supportive treatment for scours....care to enlighten us?


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## elevan (Oct 26, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

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Well, me either.  Come on, tell use what you know


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## goatsintheopen (Oct 26, 2011)

SO... I'm back from the Vets and they did a fecal and found nothing...checked for Coccida and everything but again, didn't see anything.   They gave me some SMZ and told me to watch her for a week and if she didn't clear up then to bring her back in.  When I took May out to the parking lot to put her in her carrier..she passed ONE raspberry! LOL  It was one, but solid..I was happy to see that.   Got her home, gave her the pill...she was NOT HAPPY about that..we had a small battle of the wills for a minute, but she finally swallowed it.. 

 She's had scours before when she was younger but it was due to an overgrowth of Clostridium (_don't know if that is spelled correctly)_  She's 7 months old and She's up to date on all her vaccinations..sooo hmm  wondering if she may have ate a bad leaf or something.


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## elevan (Oct 26, 2011)

Sounds like it was likely dietary then.

It's funny how we can get excited about seeing goat berries


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## Roll farms (Oct 26, 2011)

I put SMZ pills into a 6cc syringe, draw water into it, and shake until it's dissolved.  Much easier to 'squirt' it in than shove it down.


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## goatsintheopen (Oct 26, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I put SMZ pills into a 6cc syringe, draw water into it, and shake until it's dissolved.  Much easier to 'squirt' it in than shove it down.


Nope, it wasn't very easy at all..I'd open her mouth and put the pill as far back as I could annnd then, she'd try to spit it out...then I'd shove it back..lol ... and of course she HAD to interject dramatics .. 

 So I thought about it and tonight when I gave her the medicine..I took pill, split it and put it in a handful of grain hoping she would eat it all..and She did!!   Ate every bit of it.. YAY!!    I was pretty relieved!  I'm going to try it again tomorrow.  if it doesn't work for some reason, then I'll try the syringe.   Thanks!


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## autumnprairie (Oct 26, 2011)

I am so glad that she is doing better


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## Roll farms (Oct 26, 2011)

goatsintheopen said:
			
		

> Nope, it wasn't very easy at all..I'd open her mouth and put the pill as far back as I could annnd then, she'd try to spit it out...then I'd shove it back..lol ... and of course she HAD to interject dramatics ..


Well, of course she did.  She wouldn't be a goat w/ out the dramatics.

"OH MY GOD, YOU'RE KILLING ME with that tiny little pill that I can miraculously regurgitate 785 times until it's a wet, slimy mess....."


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## autumnprairie (Oct 26, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

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## Ms. Research (Oct 26, 2011)

Knowing different ways to get an animal to take medication is a plus.  Finding out the method that works for you and yours...priceless.  And a big relief.  

Congratulations and hoping all is well for tomorrow's medication!   Can't say I blame them for the dramatics, hate taking pills myself.  And you should see me with shots.


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## kstaven (Oct 27, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

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We have used gelatin in the formula of kids and calves that get scours for ages. Helps to firm up the discharge and slow the dehydration element. Got this from an old farm vet over a decade ago.


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## Roll farms (Oct 27, 2011)

Ah.  Probably along the same lines as the 'revitalyte gelling' elecrolyte mix that I often recommend to folks.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 27, 2011)

The other thing that just re-occurred to me is acidosis..  It can cause a watery, brown, foul smelling scour like that..  Usually the result of overfeeding grain..  For instance, sometimes if I'm pushing grain onto a mama or something like that, I'll sometimes push until she starts to 'loosen up', which sometimes goes a little too far and results in basically what the OP described..  I'm not sure why I didn't think to ask about feeding changes or feed locker break-ins with my initial reply, but...

Anyway, if you suspect it could have been related to overfeeding/overeating, baking soda can be hugely helpful in those cases.


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## goatsintheopen (Oct 27, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> The other thing that just re-occurred to me is acidosis..  It can cause a watery, brown, foul smelling scour like that..  Usually the result of overfeeding grain..  For instance, sometimes if I'm pushing grain onto a mama or something like that, I'll sometimes push until she starts to 'loosen up', which sometimes goes a little too far and results in basically what the OP described..  I'm not sure why I didn't think to ask about feeding changes or feed locker break-ins with my initial reply, but...
> 
> Anyway, if you suspect it could have been related to overfeeding/overeating, baking soda can be hugely helpful in those cases.


I am SOOO careful about feeding grain.  I am  very paranoid of them over eating it and bloating..so they don't get free choice.  I give my goats a measured amount of grain each morning for their weight, and that's all they get for the day. They eat mainly alfalfa and orchard grass hay.  Since the fecal didn't reveal anything, I'm guessing she had to have eaten something that didn't agree with her..  I've heard about using baking soda.. thanks for that.


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## zzGypsy (Oct 27, 2011)

haven't used it with goats, but we have used kaopectate (on a vet's advice) for scours in sheep when we haven't been able to identify the cause.  it helps stabilize the gut and reduce dehydration.  dose is the same as for people, by weight.
pepto bismol is also useful in sheep with obvious disgestive upset, with the added advantage that sheep think it's especially tasty.  haven't used pepto in goats.

we do keep baking soda out for the goats all the time, they eat it if they need it.  and we keep a couple bottles of bloat release in our medicine cabinet as well.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 28, 2011)

zzGypsy said:
			
		

> haven't used it with goats, but we have used kaopectate (on a vet's advice) for scours in sheep when we haven't been able to identify the cause.  it helps stabilize the gut and reduce dehydration.  dose is the same as for people, by weight.
> pepto bismol is also useful in sheep with obvious disgestive upset, with the added advantage that sheep think it's especially tasty.  haven't used pepto in goats.


Kaopectate and Pepto are actually the same thing these days..  Kaopectate used to be kaolin/pectin, but the formula was changed about 10 years ago and now it's bismuth subsalicylate, just like Pepto Bismol.  You can usually still get real kaolin/pectin at livestock supply places, though.

What bismuth does is coat the GI, which is handy in cases where something's attacking the gut lining..  Could be a case of bacterial enteritis, could be acidosis, coccidiosis -- anytime you'd figure that putting some type of 'shield' up around the guts would be a handy thing to do..


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## zzGypsy (Oct 28, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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well now that's interesting, I didn't realize it had been changed.  I'll have to look for the kaolin/pectin, I've never seen it for sale.

guess I'll just use pepto in the future - my sheep will lick that up out of a dish, so it's easy to dose


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## ksalvagno (Oct 28, 2011)

What kind of fecal was done? Was it the quick fecal float at the vet? I send my fecals off to the state lab. They do a longer procedure that catches more types. Emac (type of coccidia) is one of them that needs the longer test done. I don't do fecals myself so I have no idea what is done but definitely more types of parasites show up when the test is run by the state lab.

There is also stuff like crypto and giardia along with salmonella, etc. Those would all be separate tests.


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## goatsintheopen (Oct 28, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> What kind of fecal was done? Was it the quick fecal float at the vet? I send my fecals off to the state lab. They do a longer procedure that catches more types. Emac (type of coccidia) is one of them that needs the longer test done. I don't do fecals myself so I have no idea what is done but definitely more types of parasites show up when the test is run by the state lab.
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> There is also stuff like crypto and giardia along with salmonella, etc. Those would all be separate tests.


Hmmm.. I didnt' even think to ask :/ 
I know they looked for coccida.. I just assumed that they would look for anything, since we were trying to figure out what was going on.  My vet sees quite a few goats so I just trusted they'd know what to do.    May's stools are normal again thankfully..so yeah,  I don't know.     this is probably a stupid question, but where would they pick up salmonella?  I know we can get it from eating bad chicken... but goats, would they contract it from chicken manure some how?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 28, 2011)

I would find out what they do for a fecal test. I know my local vets just do the quick fecal float. While they can find the garden variety coccidia, it doesn't find the ones like Emac.


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