# Are we getting close?...:UPDATE:



## mommy_2_parks (Feb 15, 2010)

Well, we took our Scottish Highland cow to the vet today, after getting no response with the bumping method, just to get her checked to make sure everything was OK. Turns out, she isn't ready and has at least two more weeks to go. However the vet was off and the calf (which is half angus) is huge and more than likely require a C-section, which will cost us more than we bought them for. What to do now?...


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## amysflock (Feb 15, 2010)

How old is your cow? How many calves has she had previously? 

You said the vet was "off." What do you mean? Did he palpatate or use ultrasound to check the gestation?

This is just my opinion/observation, but dairy vets are much more used to doing c-sections, and like human OB/GYNs, some might be more prone to insisting on a c-section when it isn't necessarily warranted. 

Our Sheila calved T-Bone, her second, unassisted and he was 80 lbs, which is very large for a purebred Highland (calves are usually around 60-70 lbs). Sheila was 4 1/2 years old at the time.

What I would recommend is that you get yourselves familiar with the signs of labor and read up on when and how to assist in delivery (and when to call for a vet), and find out what vets are able to come out in an emergency, and have their numbers on your speed dial, just in case. Chances are your Highland cow will deliver fine, without any intervening, and probably when your back is turned!


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## mommy_2_parks (Feb 15, 2010)

Our vet had palpatated her in december and said she was full term or nearly full term. She is 8 years old and has had some other calves (not sure how many). I think once her bags start to fill, we will put her in a calving area with plenty of dry, clean hay and wait from there. The vet said that an hour into hard labour to call him out for a C-section...


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## jhm47 (Feb 16, 2010)

An hour???  We generally wait up to 5 - 6 hours before calling our vet.  We will call sooner if the calf is hiplocked in the birth canal, but we can generally get them out with a calf puller and patience.

You might think about investing in a good calf puller, and read up on how to best use one.  They aren't needed in almost all births, but they can be invaluable when you really need one.  

You should also consider going the AI route in future breedings.  You can select proven easy calving bulls from almost any breed, and avoid problems like you are having right now.


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## mommy_2_parks (Feb 16, 2010)

We bought this cow already bred to an angus bull. The vet said, however, that she is fairly old and since we are still trying to get her up to a good weight and health, the longer we wait, the less likely it will be for her and the calf's survival. I really don't know a whole lot, though, because I am so new to this.


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## jhm47 (Feb 16, 2010)

First of all, Angus are (as a general rule) not hard calvers.  There are a few bloodlines that are, but not many.  

If your cow is in poor flesh, the calf will usually be smaller.  A bred cow or feedlot heifer that has been pushed to gain at maximum rates will usually have larger calves than one that has not been fed so much.  It is likely that your calf will be smaller than it would have been if the cow was in good flesh.  That's not to say that your calf can't be too large for your cow, but you do have a couple of things going in your favor.

Some vets "push" C-sections.  It's a lot of $$$ in their pockets, and it's easy to convince a "newbie" cattle raiser to consent to doing one.  Your vet could be perfectly correct, but I'd try to get another opinion before spending the $$$ on a C-section.  JMHO on all of this.  No matter what, good luck!


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## mommy_2_parks (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks, jhm. I understand what you are saying. I think we will just wait things out. This is probably a stupid question, but when will her bags begin to fill? I've heard some people say like 2 weeks before, but I've also heard it could wait until right after she calves. I am so ready for this to happen that way I will know what to expect for all the others!


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## Imissmygirls (Feb 16, 2010)

one thing... If you have been feeding up this cow to get weight on her, she may have put too much into the calf in the last month and caused it to be large.
Having said that, I, too, would wait a bit on her before panicking.
Give her a clean dry calving area and let her go into labor. make sure you are seeing FRONT feet out first and nose laying on them.  An average birth from an older cow is anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour after you see feet.
If you can find a calf puller, it would help, but many have made do with a rope/chain/come-along. 

How large is this cow?  Is she wider in the rear (between the tail bones) than your others? I've never seen a scottish Highlander in RL, but I suspect she should handle an 80 lb calf.
How much do you trust your vet?


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## mommy_2_parks (Feb 16, 2010)

She is quite a bit larger in the rear than the rest of our girls. I'm willing to take any advice you might have. I trust our vet in the fact that we haven't used him enough to distrust him...


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## jhm47 (Feb 16, 2010)

As far as her bag filling, with my cows, the heifers bag up a month or so before giving birth.  The older cows often don't bag up till a day or so beforehand.  Some wait till after the calf is born.  

I have a fairly large herd of black Simmental/Angus crosses.  Calving problems are few and far between for them, and I have not had a vet on my farm for calving problems for around 15 years.  I've found that handling them by myself is quicker and much cheaper.  I invested in a good quality calf puller about 10 years ago, and have used it only about a half dozen times.  A calf puller is rarely used, but when you need one, you REALLY need one.


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## mommy_2_parks (Feb 16, 2010)

My father-in-law has a herd of thirty black angus. He bought them all as bred heifers. Long story short, he was out of town for a week and my husband was keeping an eye on them while he was gone and end up pulling 4 calves that week. Overall, he has lost 3 of the cows and 4 of the calves. I think that's why I'm so paranoid about this whole thing!


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## jhm47 (Feb 17, 2010)

As I posted in a previous reply, not all Angus are "easy calvers".  Most are, and that's partly why Angus bulls are so popular for use on first calf heifers.  Many dairymen use them on Holstein heifers to ensure that their calves will not be too large.  That being said, there are also bloodlines in the Angus breed that are most definitely NOT easy calvers, so it all boils down to what bloodline your heifer was bred to.  

If you are able to contact the person who owned the bull, and if the bull was registered, you should be able to find out his EPD's.  EPD's (Espected Progeny Differences) are a quite reliable prediction of the characteristics of the offspring of the registered animal.  A CED (that's Calving Ease Direct) score of 8 or above would be considered calving ease.  There is also a score for birth weight, and a score of +1 to a minus number is very good.  Currently, the breed average for CED is +6, and the BW score is +2.1.  

In the AI company that I work for, there are many Angus bulls that have a CED score of 10 to 12, and one is even rated at 15.  Of course, these bulls offspring often don't grow quite as fast as the offspring of the "power" bulls, but then, the dead calves that lost their lives during birth don't bring much at the auction market in the fall either.  

If you are interested, I guess I could send you a bull catalog, where you can see pics of the bulls and all their EPD's.  There are many breeds of bulls in the catalog, but no Highlanders.  PM me if you're interested.

FYI:  I sell a fair amount of bull semen to various ranchers, and it's about 8 Angus to 1 of all the other breeds combined.  I don't particularly like that, but that's what the current market dicatates.


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## amysflock (Feb 27, 2010)

Kali, I thought I'd pipe in and tell you we just had the vet out to visit this past Wednesday and found out both of our original cows _are_ pregnant...to the second bull who visited! They're not due until April/May (Sheila is a little further along than Bridgit). I'm ceasing my obsessive nightly checks of their udders, vulvas and pins until late March/early April. What a relief!


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## mommy_2_parks (Feb 27, 2010)

Congrats, Amy! We still don't have any calves on the ground, but most of ours will calving sometime in April. Here is a picture of one of ours that should be calving any day. She is as big as a barn. Sorry about the picture quality; I took it with my cell phone.







Here is a picture of Gretchen's rear (who isn't due until April). There is some clear mucousy drainage and looks awful swollen -- don't you think?


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## Imissmygirls (Feb 27, 2010)

I've no Highland experience, but in less hairy animals, being "big as a barn" doesn't mean they are close.  The calf is often crosswise deep down in (sorta like women carry crosswise as the baby wiggles?)
Another *sign* if there is such a thing, is when she slims a bit.  That's the equivalent of the human baby "dropping" into the birth position.  In cows, the calf turns lengthwise ( we hope) and moves into the birth position with the front feet near the vulva and nose resting between those front feet.  This, in effect, slims mama the slightest bit.  Hard to tell under all that hair tho.
Swollen, loose rear end always seems swollen and loose until you see it postpartum or in labor... then it's REALLY swollen and loose.
Best sign of all labor is when you look out in the herd, do a head count and say... where is ____?
That means she is looking for a secluded spot to calve.


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## amysflock (Mar 4, 2010)

Is Gretchen the one who calved?  She does look swollen in the vulva, although at the time of the photo, the fact that the baby wasn't in position indicates it wasn't quite ready. Was this her first calf? The other thing I see is it appears her tailhead looks high, an indication the ligaments have softened. We can feel this by feeling the space between the tailhead and the pin bones on each side.

Congrats again on the new calf! What a relief, huh?


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## mommy_2_parks (Mar 4, 2010)

Amy, Momma (I know, a silly name-- my husband insisted, she was our first positive preg check) was the one that calved this past week. The fat one up top is Kaia Cuerno with no horns, then the second picture is Gretchens rear. Kaia is due sometime this month, but Momma wasn't due until late March soooo...? Gretchen isn't due for another month, but we will see. Getting the first calf on the ground (healthy and happy) is a definite relief!


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## mommy_2_parks (Mar 12, 2010)

An update...

As of now she has not calved and has been acting normally. Today when I came home, she had bloody discharge and has blood down her tail (she is white, so it is easy to see). I will try to get a picture up. Do you think it's time? Or is that an indication if a problem?


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## mommy_2_parks (Mar 12, 2010)

An update...

As of now she has not calved and has been acting normally. Today when I came home, she had bloody discharge and has blood down her tail (she is white, so it is easy to see). I will try to get a picture up. Do you think it's time? Or is that an indication of a problem?






That is not poop, by the way, it is very clotty blood.


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## amysflock (Mar 12, 2010)

Ok, this is Kaia with the bloody show? Can you get a photo from the rear and a better one of her vulva (or can you tell if it looks more "floppy" and swollen?)? Does she let you handle her udder? If so, do you notice any change? (This is her first calf, right? If that's the case, she could have been building an udder for a few months now. If she's had calves before, udder changes usually happen closer to calving.)


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## mommy_2_parks (Mar 12, 2010)

amysflock said:
			
		

> Ok, this is Kaia with the bloody show? Can you get a photo from the rear and a better one of her vulva (or can you tell if it looks more "floppy" and swollen?)? Does she let you handle her udder? If so, do you notice any change? (This is her first calf, right? If that's the case, she could have been building an udder for a few months now. If she's had calves before, udder changes usually happen closer to calving.)


amy, it's gotten too dark for me to get a good picture. It is actually Chloe with the bloody rear. Chloe was the one that was "full term" in December. She has had several calves previously. We have too many preggies to keep up with, I know! She has since gone to the woods. I heard mooing in the distance, whether it's her or not, I don't know. My dh is going to go out on the 4 wheeler and check in her in an hour or so....


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## amysflock (Mar 13, 2010)

Ooo, mooing in the dark woods. That sounds promising! Keep us posted!!


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## mommy_2_parks (Mar 13, 2010)

Nothing yet this morning! She is eating/acting normally. Her vulva is very loose. I will try to get out and get a picture as soon as I can.


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