# Kid with Scours - When to call the vet



## KidMandy (Jun 13, 2012)

We have a 13 wk old doe kid that started having scours on Monday morning and despite trying a "home remedy" for treatment (found in Raising Diary Goats; consists of buttermilk, raw egg, cocoa and baking soda) it is persisting.  She is on hay only (no grain) and is eating and drinking well, and otherwise acting normally.  She was fine on Sunday, with no over feeding of grain, and was our healthiest kid.

I did fill their manger with a fresh bale of hay from a new farmer, though, and it is quite "leafier" (greener) than the last bale we had.  He was a sheep farmer and said it was the bale he'd feed to the sheep.  We had been giving them horse hay, as this is what they had been eating at their first home.  Could this be the problem?  It's the only thing that's different.

Any reading/research I've done that talks about scours and disease make me think that if it was something that was going to kill her, she'd already be gone by now.  Some things have said to just let the scours run its course because it's cleaning her out.  The scours are a dark brown-green colour, which I guess could point to the leafy green hay.  It is also very very wet.  It just runs right out of her.

We have two other doe kids, one is not having any scours, and the other had some yesterday, but seems to be doing better today, maybe because of the home remedy.

I also noticed on Monday that she has developed Sore Mouth, but I didn't read anything thing that links the two.

This is our first time with goats, and we have had all sorts of troubles.  Sigh ...  Do I call the vet and get a culture done or just leave her to work it out?  Any insight is much appreciated.


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## Roll farms (Jun 13, 2012)

Dietary scours are usually green.  The darker color would make me think coccidiosis.   

It's that time of year, and she's at the right age.

You can have a fecal ran to verify...that's always a great idea.  

And if you elect not to treat, keep in mind that it doesn't kill quickly, it slowly builds scar tissue up in the intestines until the kid weakens, basically starves, and dies.
Kids can have a high cocci load and no symptoms.  Or they can scour terribly.  There are no rules to it.

It could also be any of a plethora of stomach worms varieties.

Could even be e coli or salmonella.

Her immune system is compromised, I'm not surprised soremouth broke out.

Goats don't 'just scour' for no reason.  Dietary scours are usually easily cleaned up by pulling grain, giving probiotics or plain cultured yogurt, and a day's time.  

We top dress our goat's feed daily w/ probiotic powder and rarely have any scours over dietary issues....as in...it's been years.  So if I *do* see scours, I know there's a reason for it.

I'd def. have a fecal ran and then treat accordingly.  Ask specifically for a cocci float.

Good luck.


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## southernstardowns (Jun 13, 2012)

Spot Master hit the nail on the head. I'd pull the grain for sure. And, like he said, if you are not using a probiotic...I'd start.


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## Roll farms (Jun 13, 2012)

southernstardowns said:
			
		

> Spot Master hit the nail on the head. I'd pull the grain for sure. And, like he said, if you are not using a probiotic...I'd start.


Ahem....HE is a SHE.


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## KidMandy (Jun 13, 2012)

I've read of Coccidiosis before, but her scours weren't bloody, so I didn't think that was it.  I've put a call into the vet and will drop of a fecal sample this afternoon.

I'm a bit concerned now.  We have another kid we picked up from a local farm who is a little short, has a potbelly and never seems to be satisfied when fed.  Jack Maudlin's page on Cocci (http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/coccidiosis.htm) says that a chronic kid cannot digest its food and will be stunted and a potbellied poor-doer.  She fits that description, though she is not a poor-doer (assuming that means she's unwell), she is definitely potbellied.  I'm wondering if she had it at her previous home, and maybe wasn't treated (they have over 500 goats) and is now "damaged" for life.  UGH.

So if Cocci is the cause of the scours, treatment sounds as though it will help the scours, but the damage to her system might already be done.

My husband is ready to pack it in with the goats.  Since bringing them home we've had one with a broken leg that won't heal, became infected and is an ongoing concern; the kid we brought home from the farm was disbudded very late, had an infection at the bud site, and had sore mouth; and now our "good" kid has this.  Very discouraging!


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## KidMandy (Jun 13, 2012)

Now my kid with the broken leg who was lightly scouring yesterday is just awful.  UGH.  There are puddles in the run.  They are still eating (hay) and are chatty when I'm out there.  I guess I will be taking two samples to the vet, unless they do a blanket treatment of all goats when one tests positive for Cocci.  I've only got three.


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## Roll farms (Jun 13, 2012)

It's best to treat all 3 at the same time...then repeat in 21 days.

I use DiMethox.  If your vet has SMZ-TMP, you can use that as well.   The sulfa-based drugs have worked best for me.
You will see a lot of 'big' herds use corid, which works to kill one stage of cocci, because it can be used in the water to treat many goats at a time.  

I prefer to treat individually, on empty stomachs, and see fast results.

Here's the info page Elevan wrote about cocci for BYH

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-coccidia-goat

And again, it may not be cocci....just my best guess.


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## babsbag (Jun 13, 2012)

I am sorry you are having such a rough time, that is tough when you are new to goats and only have a few. I have had a rough year too, but I am not a newbie and I have over 30 goats at my place right now so it gets a little more complicated.

Cocci is common and everytime I have a kid over 3 weeks of age start to scour I immediately go for the cocci treatment. The first 2 years I had kids born we had no problems as there had been no goats on our property until then. I wish I could say that that is still the case. I now do preventative cocci treatments, so much better than waiting for an outbreak.

If one has it most likely they all will. It isn't an end all, just start treatment ASAP. You should see improvement in a day or two at most.  If your kids have been compromised by other infections they are probably open to every opportunistic organism. I would definately do the fecal and treat accordingly.

Keep hanging in there. You can do it.


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## KidMandy (Jun 13, 2012)

So the medications that have been mentioned, or when you say "I start treatment right away," are these things you just have at your house all the time?  With just three goats, I would be afraid that medicines and things would expire before I had the chance to use it all.  From other threads, it seems like everyone keeps things "on hand" for when something comes up.  Is that true?


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## elevan (Jun 13, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> It's best to treat all 3 at the same time...then repeat in 21 days.
> 
> I use DiMethox.  If your vet has SMZ-TMP, you can use that as well.   The sulfa-based drugs have worked best for me.
> You will see a lot of 'big' herds use corid, which works to kill one stage of cocci, because it can be used in the water to treat many goats at a time.
> ...








			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> southernstardowns said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And "Spot Master" is a title.  Her name is Roll farms


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## marlowmanor (Jun 13, 2012)

KidMandy said:
			
		

> So the medications that have been mentioned, or when you say "I start treatment right away," are these things you just have at your house all the time?  With just three goats, I would be afraid that medicines and things would expire before I had the chance to use it all.  From other threads, it seems like everyone keeps things "on hand" for when something comes up.  Is that true?


I understand the not having all the common things on hand all the time because you have a small herd. Our little herd is the same way. The only thing I actually had on hand was CDT vaccine and Ivermectin because we had used it before on our first 2 goats. Well we just added a new doe, we got her for free because the previous owner wanted her to go to a pet home and not be bred again because she had difficulty birthing. Well it turned out that she was anemic and needed some serious TLC. So we had to go out and get the things we needed (penicillin, red cell, b complex, probios). My DH wasn't too happy about having to put so much money into her when we just got her but all the stuff we got are things that are good to have on hand anyway so now DH is planning out where to have a goat medicine cabinet at. Lots of things are good to have on hand if emergencies happen. Sometimes when a goat goes down you don't have time to go to the vet or the money to pay for the vet visit. That's why a lot of the BYH members recommend knowing a goat person near you as well as a vet. In our case my dad has been raising goats my whole life so we called him for his advice and we got her started on most of the meds she needed. It was a Sunday when we started seeing alot of red flags with her so there was no calling the vet. We did call the vet Monday and got the recommendation of Red Cell and the dosage and were told to get a fecal in at the end of the week since we wormed her Sunday. 

Alot of the medications may have experation dates that are years out or may not even expire at all so they aren't a bad thing to purchase and have on hand. I hope you can get your goat to feeling better. Sorry no advice for you, just thought you'd like to know there are others out here with small herds that understand your concerns.


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## babsbag (Jun 13, 2012)

I keep some on hand.   sulfadimethoxine (di-methox) for cocci; C&D antitoxin, not the vaccine; Duramycin, Penicillin, and Banamine. Also Pepto Mismol. Most of these drugs are inexpensive and if they are out of date it is still better than no drug at all. The may loose some potentcy, but if they are stored correctly they will not be totally ineffective.

There are a few others I keep during kidding season, but those have been added as needed and I have some great goat mentors nearby so I can usually find what I need in a hurry.
I now have Bo-Se, thiamine, vit B complex, and some CMPK. 

Worming drugs I can buy easily, any day of the week, and I don't worm without a fecal so I don't go out of my way to have them on hand. I have never had a goat that needed to be wormed this hour or die.


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## KidMandy (Jun 13, 2012)

I just heard back from the vet.  Fecal tested negative for Cocci eggs, but he's treating all of them for it anyway.  He said sometimes the scours start before they start shedding eggs to examine.  Maybe we have caught it early.

I guess I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed with the names of the drugs, and keeping track of what they treat.  I'm a research-aholic, but there's just something about the diseases and corresponding medications that will not compute.  It's like a foreign language, especially with all the abbreviations.  It'll come eventually.  Just like it did with the chickens.

It's my daughter's 10th birthday tomorrow and we are having a big party on Saturday.  It would sure be nice if the girls didn't have messy bums (and bodies!) for their big family debut


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 13, 2012)

KidMandy said:
			
		

> I just heard back from the vet.  Fecal tested negative for Cocci eggs, but he's treating all of them for it anyway.  He said sometimes the scours start before they start shedding eggs to examine.  Maybe we have caught it early.
> 
> I guess I'm just feeling a bit overwhelmed with the names of the drugs, and keeping track of what they treat.  I'm a research-aholic, but there's just something about the diseases and corresponding medications that will not compute.  It's like a foreign language, especially with all the abbreviations.  It'll come eventually.  Just like it did with the chickens.
> 
> It's my daughter's 10th birthday tomorrow and we are having a big party on Saturday.  It would sure be nice if the girls didn't have messy bums (and bodies!) for their big family debut


Your vet is wise to consider treating anyway. You should see improvements in 24 hours if the medicine is working. If you don't see improvement you might want to add and antibiotic to the treatment.


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## Roll farms (Jun 13, 2012)

Best way I've found to remove poo from goat butts (unless you LIKE washing sticky poopy butts and getting it splashed on you...*shudder*)...let it dry and comb it out w/ a fine toothed comb.


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## KidMandy (Jun 13, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Best way I've found to remove poo from goat butts (unless you LIKE washing sticky poopy butts and getting it splashed on you...*shudder*)...let it dry and comb it out w/ a fine toothed comb.


When we found the goats covered in poop on Monday, DH gave them all baths.  We didn't realize at the time it was going to be an ongoing thing for the week.  Hopefully by Friday/Saturday morning things will have settled down and he can bath them again.  I've heard goats don't like water, but they didn't seem to mind and they looked so puuuurty after 

Thank you all for your help.  I am really learning a lot, and it's wonderful to have a forum like this to draw from real life experiences.  Us newbies need it


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## KidMandy (Jun 15, 2012)

Okay, I picked up the Cocci meds from the vet yesterday, but they have already stopped scouring.  Doe #1 who started on Monday was back to regular stools and so was the one who started the next day.  I am still planned to treat for Cocci just in case, but do the scours usually only last for a couple of days without treatment?  Remember, the sample I took into the vet tested negative.


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## Roll farms (Jun 15, 2012)

It can.  

There are just no 'rules' w/ coccidiosis.  What your goats do, another's goats won't....

And like I said all along, it *could* have just been dietary.  But it surely won't hurt to do a round of prevention.


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