# Buck services



## ksalvagno (Sep 5, 2009)

Do any of  you lease your bucks out or offer individual buck services? If you do, what do you charge? Are there any guarantees with the breeding? How hard is it to catch the doe's cycle on the right moment if you have to take your doe over to the buck farm for a drive by breeding (especially for a newbie)?

The reason I'm asking is because the breeder that I bought 2 does from which are staying there to be bred in November is offering me 2 bucks for $150. One is from excellent bloodlines and I'm not sure about the other one. I'm new and only recognize the big names. The other one has blue eyes. They aren't quite as flashy as I would like but come from very flashy bucks (I'm waiting to hear back on who their dams are). I realize that isn't the only thing you are looking for. I'm certainly more interested in conformation and milking ability (their dams, not them ) but also know that flash sells as well or better than good bloodlines.

If I decide to pursue this, I would go out and look at the bucks before deciding anything. I will also probably take my friend who was in dairy goats for years for her to look at their conformation and everything. She doesn't know Nigerians per say but certainly knows good goat conformation in general.


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## lilhill (Sep 5, 2009)

I don't lease my bucks nor breed outside does.  Just too much of a liability, including bringing diseases into my herd.  Some folks out there do, but someone told me a few days ago that it's almost impossible finding a Nigerian buck to breed her girls anymore.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 5, 2009)

I have dodged stud service like the plaque!! My boys are just for my girls.
To me, it is WAY more trouble than what it is worth. Too many issues. In my opinion, you are better off to sell your bucklings,.....

I do have a service agreement I made for a fellow breeder if your interested at looking at it. It may give you an idea of what "could" come up as a result of offering....


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## ksalvagno (Sep 6, 2009)

I think I may have not been very clear in my original post. I'm trying to decide if I should  try to find clean farms who offer buck services or bite the bullet and get the bucks and not have to look around.

I'm in a big dilemma because I was hoping to put off getting any bucks but when thinking about it more and more,  I worry that I won't be able to find clean farms who are willing to breed outside does. Not to mention that taking them off the farm and taking a doe to another farm is opening up a possibility of coming home with something. Also I don't know how hard it is to tell when a doe is ready and then getting her over to a farm on the right day for breeding. I don't want to have to make a bunch of trips to try and get a doe pregnant.

On the flip side, if I have bucks, then I have to find space for them. I know I won't have the heart to buy them and then sell them as soon as I don't need them anymore. I would want to keep them for a while. I know at some point they will have to move on to another farm but I just can't buy a buck and keep him for a couple months and then sell him.

What is really prompting this is that I'm being offered a very good deal. I know you just don't jump at a good deal and I will really look at these males and not buy junk but then again I don't have a money tree to go out and buy the most expensive stuff all the time. Plus I won't have to worry about who to breed my girls to next year. Sooo, I'm really trying to figure it all out and make the right decision.


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## freemotion (Sep 6, 2009)

I have the same dilemma here.  I put an ad on craigslist....twice....and asked around a lot.  I find that most clean farms don't take outside does.  The ones that do, do "driveway breeding" and I have to supply a vet certificate of health (from any time in the past few months....seems silly to me, I could have a healthy doe three months ago who could be diseased today, but as long as I have that piece of paper that cost me a couple hundred dollars, I'm good to go  ) and since I only have a car, I have to pay someone to haul the doe to them.  By the time I pay the stud fee, too, I could've bought a couple of bucks and kept them for the year....decent ones, too.

My current plan, since I have no interest in purebreds or showing, is to buy a buckling, breed my does, and then sell him.   Then do the same thing next year.  Only time will tell if this is a good plan for me!  I can get a nice purebred dairy buckling from a clean farm for $100, whose dam was a champion in milk production.  If I give him away for free after breeding only one doe, I am in better shape financially than if I paid for a breeding.  If I breed 2-3 does, well, do the math!  I did!  This is a way for someone just starting out to get their does lactating on a budget.

Also, next year, I could keep bucklings to breed to the opposite does (not to their mothers, obviously!) if I get bucklings, then sell them.  This will be tougher, since I will have raised the bucklings myself.  I'm thinking I won't do this.....it will hurt too much to sell them later rather than sooner....but I could if I had to.

Just another option for you!


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## trestlecreek (Sep 6, 2009)

Oh, okay, I see now.
Well, if you can find someone to do stud service, then you could do it. It can be hard to tell if a doe is in true heat without a buck being around. You may have difficulties getting your does bred that way. Most people that offer stud service state that it is your responsibility to know your does cycle and they will only offer a so many breedings regardless. Some people use hormones to sync their does for the service...
Or you could buy one and then sell him later on.....


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 7, 2009)

I just got my does this weekend and at least one of them needs to be bred this fall.  I have a pretty close neighbor, and as a courtesy to good neighbors, I will not have a smelly buck on my property.  When we can afford more land, we want to cycle bucks between the girls.

Until then, I am not sure what to do either.  I don't want my girl Sophia to miss breeding this fall (she is my avatar), she is so beautiful and has such a calm, sweet disposition, I can't wait to see what kids she might produce.  Plus, I am hoping to milk her in the spring.


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## freemotion (Sep 7, 2009)

I am fortunate to be in an area with snowy winters, so my buck will be stinky when people don't go outside....hopefully!  Not much else good about the cold and snowy winters!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 8, 2009)

To me -- and this is just my personal opinion -- anybody offering a stud service is lax on their biosecurity, because they're introducing their buck to other peoples' _herds_ when they introduce it to any given doe out of any given herd.  Therefore, if you introduce your doe to their buck, you're also introducing her to other peoples' herds..  And when you take her back home, you're introducing your entire herd to other peoples' herds.

I personally don't see it as being much different than running a doe through a salebarn..  Would I run one of my does through a salebarn -- even if she were in and out in half a day -- and bring her straight back home and turn her out with my herd?  Not a chance....but, again, that's just my personal view.

If it were me and I didn't actually have room to keep a buck long-term, I'd buy the buck, quarantine him, use him if he seemed healthy coming out of quarantine, and then I'd send him right on down the road to someone else.

You're gonna have to find the heart to do that at some point anyway, unless you get your pairing just right the first time and plan to sell every kid from every crop, every year..


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## freemotion (Sep 8, 2009)

Thanks, cmjust0, you often validate me, and you have, yet again.  Support needed and appreciated! 

ETA:  Reading about some other goat owner's health crises validates the closed herd position, too.  I will get a buck in October for a month's quaranteen, breed in late Nov-Dec, then sell him.  There.  Decision made.  Now....which breed????


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## Griffin's Ark (Sep 10, 2009)

I just had to sneak in on this one...  A lot of people in our area get a buck in July and get rid of it in November.  That is normally the guys doing Meat goats.  Then you have idiots like me who have more bucks than they know what to do with cause I don't want to sell them to just anyone.  I am not allowed within 10 feet of DW after morning rounds.  Bottle fed bucks just love to rub up on you.  It is quite a smell.  I would not worry about having a small breed buck offending the neighbors, they are not nearly as smelly as a large breed.  Also if you keep bucks only during rut and you keep yearlings the smell is even less.  A mature (3 yr) buck is pretty much unapproachable from August to December.  Getting 2 bucks for that price is OK, but you only need one.

Chris


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## ksalvagno (Sep 10, 2009)

Well, see that is my problem. I can't buy a male and then sell it in 2-4 months. I'm just not at that point. Maybe someday but not right now. Also the person who wants to sell me these goats contacted me because she wants them to go to a "good" home because these boys have a special place in her heart. So in good conscience, I could never buy them and then sell them fast. Just from the pictures and his bloodlines, the one buck looks like a really nice one. The other one I'm not sure. The owner wants them to go together because they are buddies. For the price, I wouldn't feel bad about wethering the one. They are young but I'm not sure of their age. I know they were born some time in the spring. I'm going to see them next week.

At this point I'm leaning toward going ahead and getting a buck to use instead of finding outside breedings. I'm worried about what I could bring home but I also don't want to spend a lot of time trying to figure out cycles and getting the does over to the farms. One of the farms that is a clean farm and willing to do outside services is 2 hours away and I don't want to be making a lot of those trips. The people that I have talked to that are clean farms and willing to do outside breedings to other clean farms only want to do driveby breedings where my doe doesn't even come into their barn. So this would be a breed and go home thing. If they don't get pregnant on that try or if I goof up on signs that she is ready when she isn't, then I'm looking at watching the female and driving back over.

I can make the space for the bucks. It was just another thing to add to the list of jobs that have to be done this fall so there lies the hesitation. We already have fenced in pasture for our current goats and I'm still working on painting our chicken shed to get the chickens out of our garage. Not to mention the normal fall activities to get ready for winter. Plus I birth alpacas for a living and still have to watch for crias being born. Not a huge deal but some days I'm feeling overwhelmed with adding chickens and goats and a garden this year. My brain is on overload with having to learn so much.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

I don't think there is any reason to buy a buck, and then ship him off like taking out the trash, so for me, you need at least 6 does before you buy a buck, and then you really need two bucks, one for this year, and a second one for next year. With two bucks you can go on for quite a few years, but that's just me. I love my goats, bucks and does, and hate to see the bucks have a horrible life, just to make things easier for a small time breeder.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 10, 2009)

If you don't want to deal with having 2 bucks (as is my case) have a wether to keep in the billy pen so your main man will have company during off-season....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

Why must a buck be shipped off "like taking out the trash?"

When we sold our last buck, he went to a very nice man with a small herd of clean, happy, healthy Nubian does.  We were happy to see him to go to a good home...the buyer was happy with his new buck...the buck was happy to have ladies...the ladies were happy to have a buck.

I really liked and cared well for that buck, and saw him off as well as anybody could..  

What's wrong with that, if anything at all?


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

Goats are creatures of habit, they hate a change in their routine, and every home change is hard on them. I'm not saying you sent your buck out like the trash, I'm saying there is no reason for anyone to have a buck who doesn't have at least 6 does. Think about it, biosecurity is not possible when you have a new animal coming in each year. A driveway breeding is a minor risk, and recent testing should be required on both the buck and the doe. There is a lot less risk in a 60 second breeding than a 5-12 months of having a new goat on site.

Having a wether for company is great, but unless you plan to breed daughters to their father, you are done with the buck after one breeding season. So he doesn't get to have a loving home, he get shipped down the road to a good/or not so good home.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 10, 2009)

I think everyone has to do what is right for their farm. I really think that anyone who bothers to be on a forum on a regular basis and contributes and learns from others is more than likely someone who is taking very good care of their animals. Unfortunately, there are plenty out there who aren't but certainly that isn't everyone. We have a livestock auction place close by and all you have to do is go there and see the shape that most of the animals are in to know that there are bad breeders out there. That being said, I have visited a lot of great goat breeders who have very clean farms, all their animals look very healthy and most even test their animals every year for the common diseases.

It comes down to personal choice. I will have 5 does to breed next year. I'm being offered a couple of bucks at a very good price. I'm new to all of this and don't have the experience of breeding goats. I don't have tons of time to be driving around for breedings and don't think I want to leave my does at someone's farm no matter how clean and disease free. Plus I do need to keep costs down while still breeding to quality males.

Also, no one seems to have a buck service price so I don't even know what people are going to charge and if they even guarantee a pregnancy. In the alpaca world we get a live birth guarantee but that doesn't seem to be the case in the goat world. So I'm sort of under the impression that outside breedings don't happen as often for goats as they do for alpacas. Which makes me want to lean more towards getting my own buck. For this year, the 3 does that I bought will be bred before I bring them home. So this year is taken care of. It is next year that I will have 5 does to breed in the fall.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

So, just out of curiosity...why is 6 your magic number?


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

Ya know in horses they do a live foal guarantee too. But in goats it is a little trickier. I used to guarantee live babies, but soon found out it is not possible to control how a doe is cared for during her pregnancy, or to even know if she has has a hard delivery prior to breeding. Scar tissue is a huge issue in does, and having a doe back every 18-23 days for a breeding only to discover she had lived with a couple of bucks for years, and never conceived, tends to sour a person. People get three tries with my bucks, after that, they pay another breeding fee and we try again. Since I instituted that policy I have not had a single doe fail to conceive.

The magic 6 number is based upon the cost of a good buck, and feeding him for a year. It is usually cheaper, and easier on people starting out to go to that top buck, that one someone else has spent a fortune on showing and promoting, than it is to try to start from the bottom up. That winning buck makes your babies worth more money, and you didn't have to invest in the equipment and expense of promoting him.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 10, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Goats are creatures of habit, they hate a change in their routine, and every home change is hard on them. I'm not saying you sent your buck out like the trash, I'm saying there is no reason for anyone to have a buck who doesn't have at least 6 does. Think about it, biosecurity is not possible when you have a new animal coming in each year. A driveway breeding is a minor risk, and recent testing should be required on both the buck and the doe. There is a lot less risk in a 60 second breeding than a 5-12 months of having a new goat on site.
> 
> Having a wether for company is great, *but unless you plan to breed daughters to their father,* you are done with the buck after one breeding season. So he doesn't get to have a loving home, he get shipped down the road to a good/or not so good home.


I do not plan on keeping the offspring. I let the girls get pregnant for one reason - milk production. If the time comes I need to replace one of my other girls then I will buy another one that is unrelated.

And not to open a whole 'nuther can of worms but this is seriously something I don't know - is there such a thing as line-breeding in goats like there is in horses, dogs, chickens, etc, etc...?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Ya know in horses they do a live foal guarantee too. But in goats it is a little trickier. I used to guarantee live babies, but soon found out it is not possible to control how a doe is cared for during her pregnancy, or to even know if she has has a hard delivery prior to breeding. Scar tissue is a huge issue in does, and having a doe back every 18-23 days for a breeding only to discover she had lived with a couple of bucks for years, and never conceived, tends to sour a person. People get three tries with my bucks, after that, they pay another breeding fee and we try again. Since I instituted that policy I have not had a single doe fail to conceive.


See, there's the other problem with "driveway breedings" from the doe owner's standpoint...  We can take our best educated guess at when a doe's in standing heat, but compared to a buck, we humans are rank amateurs.

Not to mention...it's entirely possible that a doe may just flat-out refuse to be driveway bred in 60-seconds after all the upset of being shipped..  You said yourself how routine is important, and how any change or move can stress them out...and it's true.  

Moreover, if doe owners really used six as the magic number and tried to do *five* driveway breedings with all the associated guesswork...plus the subsequent "mulligan" breedings when we get it wrong...  Well, my time's worth _something_, plus gasoline and mileage add up quickly.

Even if I knew for an absolute fact that the buck was clean...even if he was MY BUCK and I kept him on a piece of land I owned down the road or something...I still can't imagine the headache of all that watching and shipping and re-shipping and..  

No thanks.

But, again, that's from the doe-owner's standpoint..



			
				kimmyh said:
			
		

> The magic 6 number is based upon the cost of a good buck, and feeding him for a year. It is usually cheaper, and easier on people starting out to go to that top buck, that one someone else has spent a fortune on showing and promoting, than it is to try to start from the bottom up. That winning buck makes your babies worth more money, and you didn't have to invest in the equipment and expense of promoting him.


That's why folks are bringing up the other option -- buying a buck just before breeding season, quarantining for 60-90 days, then either hand breeding or turning him out to breed at will, then sending him down the road to another small herd owner.  

If you figure those few months on being even 1/2 the cost of keeping a buck for an entire year (which isn't likely), the magic number drops to 3 when viewed from the standpoint of cost alone..

If you factor in the opportunity cost of the things you _could_ have been doing instead of confusedly watching your does round the clock for signs of standing heat, plus the driving, plus the actual cost of gasoline, plus the mileage on the car....the magic number just keeps dropping.

I'm not saying you're wrong, per se...I'm just saying that for some people who may only have even just two or three does and a hectic schedule with other responsibilities, it may make perfect sense to buy a buck and let _him_ concentrate on breeding while you tend to the brazillion other things on your plate..  

He's better at it anyway.  


I also feel like it's fair to point out -- respectfully, of course -- that as someone who actually offers stud service for goats, it's not terribly surprising that you're in favor of it.  I'd be shocked if you weren't!

I'm not sayin...I'm just sayin..


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> And not to open a whole 'nuther can of worms but this is seriously something I don't know - is there such a thing as line-breeding in goats like there is in horses, dogs, chickens, etc, etc...?


When it goes well, yep.

When it goes wrong, it's called inbreeding.

 

But, yeah, people do it.  We don't, personally, but I know people who do.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 10, 2009)

Some farms are very successful at line breeding. Personally, I don't know enough about genetics to do it right.

My plan for the next couple of years is to sell all offspring. So to keep the buck and use him again wouldn't be a problem (as long as I liked what I got  )


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## freemotion (Sep 10, 2009)

Well, all I need, really, is an animal with the correct plumbing and reasonable dairy lines in case I want to keep a doeling.   I just want to milk my does for my own use.

I have no problem with someone having my buck for dinner after he has donated sperm.  Really, it is unrealistic to think that every male goat that is produced will live a long and fulfilling life.  Nor will every rooster.  We aquired one cockerel to produce next years' chicks, and all the cockerels from this years batch will go into the freezer.



That is the viewpoint of someone who is not breeding purebreds or show animals, just someone who is looking to put super-high-quality food on her own table.  Even those destined for the freezer will be loved and cared for while alive as if they were going to be kept forever.  Doelings will be treated differently, much time will be spent handling them for future milking.  My five-month-old has already been on the milking stand a few times and has had her feet, head, and udder handled from day one.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> broke down ranch said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In breeding is anything in the first generation, line breeding is beyond that point, thus my comment about buying 2 bucks. Buck 1 makes does, when they are ready they are bred to buck 2. Does from that union can then be bred to buck 1 and you can go on for quite a few years.

When you breed to an outside line it is like cooking dinner and throwing it against the wall. Some of it will stick, as will some of the good traits from both parents, BUT you will never have a line of goats that is _consistently_ good unless you line breed.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

I guess that is the point, it seems many on this board are interested in putting goat on the table, and not breeding registered goats. No harm no foul, but there is way more money in breeding stock, so that is where my head goes.


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## freemotion (Sep 10, 2009)

And I may very well go there one day myself.  But not now, just got my first dairy girl this past year, started on a search in my quest for real food.  That includes meat, milk and dairy products, eggs, produce, fruit, and maybe maple syrup this winter.  So my interests are different, so what is right for me is different from the next person.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

Exactly.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> When you breed to an outside line it is like cooking dinner and throwing it against the wall. Some of it will stick, as will some of the good traits from both parents, BUT you will never have a line of goats that is _consistently_ good unless you line breed.


That's all well and good until some bad recessive genetic characteristic rears its ugly head one day and is discovered to be carried in many, many animals that have been line bred back to a common ancestor..

Then again, I'm actually a huge fan of outcrosses, regardless of whether or not they're able to be registered.  They seem to be healthier and thriftier and...just more sound overall than a lot of the purebreds I've seen out there.

That's not just in goats, either..


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

cmjust0-very true, and line breeding is the best way to discover and remove traits that may be hidden. Once you have those taken care of, you have genetically superior animals.

Mixing breeds as you have mentioned does indeed bring hybrid vigor to the off spring. It also allows some breed specific faults/problems to cross to those new experimental breeds. It can be terrific, and it can be a heart breaker.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

How do you _remove_ a recessive genetic trait once it's discovered without starting over with different animals?  Even if you trace a particular recessive genetic problem back to one animal, without genetic testing, there wouldn't really be any way to look at an animal -- in most cases, anyway -- and determine whether or not the animal was free of the bad gene or was just a carrier for it...  

Seems to me that all you could really do would be to either stop linebreeding to that animal so as to avoid passing *two* copies of the bad gene on to the next generation, or start breeding in different directions until you figure out which line hasn't manifested the problem in a long time..

I really don't know how it works, though...like I said, I prefer outcrossing even to purebreds, so I'm a little weird that way anyhow..


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## freemotion (Sep 11, 2009)

Maybe she means cull the animal with the trait from the herd?  That is the only way to remove a gene from a breeding program that I know of, once you know it is there.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Maybe she means cull the animal with the trait from the herd?  That is the only way to remove a gene from a breeding program that I know of, once you know it is there.


Maybe..  

Then again, I could stand another lesson in genetics, frankly.


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## freemotion (Sep 11, 2009)

Yeah, I had it in high school biology, ninth grade, which was a frightening number of years ago.  Of course, I have attended many lectures and read many articles and a few books on the subject since.  Since the Human Genome Project was competed a few years back, a lot has been learned about genetics.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 11, 2009)

Here's a link of interest:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/np/ha/han29.htm?pf=1


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

Line breeding is used all the time to refine and improve a species. For instance Min. Schnauzers have a recessive type of blindness, and in order to prove a dog or bitch does not carry the recessive trait, it is bred to a blind known carrier. If the puppies are all sighted, the dog or bitch does not carry the gene. This type of undesirable recessive removal would not be possible without dedicated breeders doing the unthinkable, and spaying and neutering beautiful known carriers. In goats it is the same, if an undesirable trait appears, you test breed to a goat known to carry the trait, and then evaluate the get. In line breeding i have never had an undesirable trait rear its ugly head, but if it did, I would place that particular animal and possibly its upline relatives in pet homes. Line breeding is not for the faint of heart, it takes a lot of planning, and someone willing to cut their losses and place beautiful show animals as pets.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Line breeding is used all the time to refine and improve a species. For instance Min. Schnauzers have a recessive type of blindness, and in order to prove a dog or bitch does not carry the recessive trait, it is bred to a blind known carrier. If the puppies are all sighted, the dog or bitch does not carry the gene. This type of undesirable recessive removal would not be possible without dedicated breeders doing the unthinkable, and spaying and neutering beautiful known carriers.


So..I have a question.

If you prove that a Shnauzer isn't a carrier for a blindness gene by breeding it to a _known_ carrier, aren't you producing:

A) a litter of potential carriers, all of which will need to be spayed/neutered, or 
B) a litter of blind puppies which will have to be put down

...all for the sake of proving or disproving the presence of a particular genetic problem?

And, another thing...isn't it fair to say that the genetic blindness problem altogether most likely the result of linebreeding at some level or another?



			
				kh said:
			
		

> In goats it is the same, if an undesirable trait appears, you test breed to a goat known to carry the trait, and then evaluate the get. In line breeding i have never had an undesirable trait rear its ugly head, but if it did, I would place that particular animal and possibly its upline relatives in pet homes. Line breeding is not for the faint of heart, it takes a lot of planning, and someone willing to cut their losses and place beautiful show animals as pets.


I guess I see things differently..  What I mean is, it's not the faintness of my heart I'm worried about....I just wouldn't want to roll the dice on bringing animals into this world which I *know* have a pretty good shot at genetic abnormalities.

I'm not saying you're wrong for doing things the way you do them, or that it's patently immoral or anything like that...I just don't really agree with it, personally, for my own reasons.

But, hey...to each their own, right?!?


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## trestlecreek (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep, this is one of those things that every breeder feels differently about!!!
Just from my opinion, I feel that disqualifying traits may be eliminated and physical confirmation may be uniform, but I don't like to play around with the other aspects.
There are many other genes that have to do with diseases and such and it can take years and years of breeding with no problems, then to have 1 animal pop up with a horrible internal problem,... when that comes out, then you have this problem linked back to many animals now carrying a bad gene..... 
Scientists do a lot of work to see where and how this happens.
I actually love to read about this stuff, but the more I read, the more I find we do not know.......


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

The recessive blindness in Min. Schnauzers was there from the time of their importation, it would randomly pop up in litters across the country. When test breeding was initiated and slit lamp exams were the norm, more and more of the undesirable traits were removed.

The puppies from those litters were often put to sleep if they were blind, the ones allowed to live were spayed and neutered. It sounds cruel, but it is the only way to prove the recessive trait is there, or not. Once enough breeders cleared their lines, the Min Schnauzer world was much better off, and you rarely hear of people having Schnauzer puppies with recessive blindness.

The same thing happened in Collies, dogs that would go blind. It took many years, and a great deal of money to get a handle on the Collie blindness issue, but it has now become less of an issue in the breed.

In the case of the Min Schnauzers and the Collies, they were typically out crosses. So it took a lot longer to figure out where the problems were coming from and eliminate the source.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

tc said:
			
		

> There are many other genes that have to do with diseases and such and it can take years and years of breeding with no problems, then to have 1 animal pop up with a horrible internal problem,... when that comes out, then you have this problem linked back to many animals now carrying a bad gene.....


I remember reading about something like that in horses at some point..  Don't remember the breed, but there was apparently this one big fancy show horse that everybody wanted a piece of, so it wound up in all kinds of lineage -- on both sides of the ol' family tree -- for that breed.

Well, as it turned out, that particular horse had some weirdo genetic condition that tainted thousands and thousands of animals..

Someone here knows what I'm talking about, I'm sure..  Can't remember the breed, nor the horse's name, nor the condition right off hand..


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep it was in the Quarter horse world, and that horse had a mutation that cause it to be "double muscled", a very desirable trait for halter horses. It took a lot of testing to eradicate that problem, if I remember correctly I had to have blood drawn and tested-right around $100.


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## fadetopurple (Sep 12, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I remember reading about something like that in horses at some point..  Don't remember the breed, but there was apparently this one big fancy show horse that everybody wanted a piece of, so it wound up in all kinds of lineage -- on both sides of the ol' family tree -- for that breed.
> 
> Well, as it turned out, that particular horse had some weirdo genetic condition that tainted thousands and thousands of animals..
> 
> Someone here knows what I'm talking about, I'm sure..  Can't remember the breed, nor the horse's name, nor the condition right off hand..


That's happened a couple times, but it sounds like Impressive the Quarter Horse stallion, and HYPP. It results in horses being more heavily muscled (popular in halter horses), but also causes random and uncontrollable seizing of the muscles. It can and does kill horses. Basically, when it happens, they suffocate - they can't breathe because their diaphragm won't work. 

HYPP is a case of incomplete dominance. A horse can be N/N (N being negative for HYPP), N/H, or H/H. A horse who is H/H will be more severely affected than a horse with N/H, but the latter will often still have symptoms and is not necessarily safe to ride. 

And unfortunately it has not been wiped out - testing of all Impressive descendants (unless both parents were N/N) is required by the QH registry, but they only recently banned the registration of H/H horses, and N/H are still allowed. It is also found in Appaloosas and Paint horses, since they allow outcrossing to QHs.


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## kimmyh (Sep 13, 2009)

And it has been eliminated in lines that test and only breed N/N, breeding horses that carry the gene, in my opinion is irresponsible.


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## FlightsofFancy (Sep 17, 2009)

I tried to read through all the posts, but did anyone mention AI (artificial insemination) 
http://www.biogenicsltd.com/clinics.html
Or a buck share with a friend.  
There is always the idea of a quarentine pen. This is how we have done it....send out your girls to a farm that does the same testing as you. Then when they get back put them in the quarentine pen for 8 weeks, with a buddy of course. We keep wethers for this purpose. We then re-test the doe and the wether, worm, hoof trim and bathe before they go back into the herd.  It is alot of work, but if you want to introduce new blood into your herd and don't want to buy that buck...it can be worth it. 
Personally I think it is a big risk and I agree with alot that has already been stated. I do not offer my buck out, but have been grateful to others that gave me the opportunity to use their buck when I first got started.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 17, 2009)

FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> Personally I think it is a big risk and I agree with alot that has already been stated. I do not offer my buck out, but have been grateful to others that gave me the opportunity to use their buck when I first got started.


Yeah, when you are first start out, everything you read says, "Don't keep a buck when you first starting out."  "Keeping a buck can be difficult, we don't recommend you do that until you are well versed in goat care."  Blah, Blah, Blah.  One place that says that is Fias Co Farms, which we KNOW is full of great information.

So you say, well I am not ready for a buck then.  Then all these people tell you how great it can be to raise bucks, how excited it is to see your does kid, how MARVELOUS their bucks are.  But NO, THEY DON"T OFFER BUCK SERVICES!  I understand it is certainly your perogative to offer or not offer the services, but it is frustrating to us newbies.  It's like saying, "Oh, you have to try this bread I made.  It's the best bread you have ever tasted.  It'll change your life! What?  Oh, no!  I DON'T GIVE OUT THE RECIPE."

It makes me want to say, "Thanks for being helpful, but you aren't very helpful!"


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## cmjust0 (Sep 17, 2009)

MMR said:
			
		

> Yeah, when you are first start out, everything you read says, "Don't keep a buck when you first starting out."


...I'm gonna add to the above just a little bit.  

Not only does everything you read state not to keep a buck at first, but a lot of the same material goes on to tell you all about how you can just line up a service buck breeding for a fee and how to use buck rags and look for standing heats and so forth..

And then within the cover of the very same books, you _invariably_ read about how it's absolutely imperative to start with a clean herd and keep it CLOSED to all outside caprine influence..

Think about that...the very same books that tell you what horrible messes you can get into by bringing outside animals to your farm goes on to straight-up advise that you to take _your_ animal to _another_ farm...which not only breaks the rule they just set forth and stressed so greatly, but assumes there will be plenty of other people who totally ignore the advice on keeping closed herds and are more than willing to allow other folks' goats onto their property to be bred to their animals!

It's paradoxical, at best, but I'd say it's utterly hypocritical.

What almost always happens ends up with.......



			
				MMR said:
			
		

> Then all these people tell you how great it can be to raise bucks, how excited it is to see your does kid, how MARVELOUS their bucks are.  But NO, THEY DON"T OFFER BUCK SERVICES!


.....just exactly what you described right there!  



People starting out read all the books and decide they'll simply do a driveway breeding -- regardless of the biosecurity issues -- because they can't or don't want to keep a buck.  So, they start looking around for stud services..  Easy enough, right?

Uh oh..  As it turns out, hardly anybody offers that service in the real world....

Why?  Because those who own bucks have already been down the road you're about to go down, which goes like this as near as I can tell...

1.  "We got some does today! (  )"
2.  "Hmmm...breeding...We'll just pay for stud service!" 
3.  "Um, does anybody offer stud service?" 
4.  "Ohno, nobody offers stud service...now what?" 
5.  "We bought a buck today...  ( :/ )" 
6.  "No, sorry, we don't offer stud services.  Too risky."  (Read that "Um, no...you're not getting off _that_ easy, noob...  If we have to put up with a stinkin' buck, _so do you_. (  )")

Round and round and round she goes.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 17, 2009)

Yup, that's about it.  

It makes me think, "well, when I get in to a position where I can keep a buck, I will be helpful and offer buck services because I will remember how difficult and frustrating this is."  

But when we have a buck of our own...no, I probably won't offer buck services either.  

Really, it isn't that we don't want a buck.  Our property is such that we have a neighbor pretty close on one side, and we are trying to be courteous to them.  So, there's the rub for us.  My husband says maybe we can make a buck pen and plant lilacs all around it to block in the stink.  I told him it was a nice thought, but I don't think it will work!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 17, 2009)

Mini-M Ranch said:
			
		

> Yup, that's about it.
> 
> It makes me think, "well, when I get in to a position where I can keep a buck, I will be helpful and offer buck services because I will remember how difficult and frustrating this is."
> 
> But when we have a buck of our own...no, I probably won't offer buck services either.


SEE!!  SEE!?!?!!!  

   



			
				mmr said:
			
		

> Really, it isn't that we don't want a buck.  Our property is such that we have a neighbor pretty close on one side, and we are trying to be courteous to them.  So, there's the rub for us.  My husband says maybe we can make a buck pen and plant lilacs all around it to block in the stink.  I told him it was a nice thought, but I don't think it will work!


Somebody should make a stinkless buck.  

Hey, if they can make thornless roses, seedless grapes, and polled bulls...why not?!?!


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## fadetopurple (Sep 17, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> And it has been eliminated in lines that test and only breed N/N, breeding horses that carry the gene, in my opinion is irresponsible.


Agreed! 



			
				FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> I tried to read through all the posts, but did anyone mention AI (artificial insemination)
> http://www.biogenicsltd.com/clinics.html


I was wondering this as well, so I looked it up. It sounds like it's too expensive for someone with just a couple of does to mess around with. It requires equipment to keep the semen frozen until the doe is in heat. I wonder if anyone's ever tried a low-tech alternative with local semen, so it gets used quickly and doesn't have to be cooled/frozen. Seriously, is there a reason that wouldn't work?


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## FlightsofFancy (Sep 18, 2009)

I know it's totally frustrating! But really what are you suppose to do? Risk your herd to help someone else out? My two bucks individually cost me more than any of my does. 
It all boils down to networking....find other breeders that you trust. Get your friends involved...share a buck. I have a few friends that have the same ideas and goals...we swap our bucks around.

Also...AI doesn't have to involve all the exspensive equipment. They will come out with the frozen semen and inseminate your doe....you just have to stand her still...talk about a driveway breeding. I just purchased an AI doeling from a GCH Sire that is dead. Pretty cool! You can definatley do local collection...I am just learning, but plan to attend some seminars in the future.

_cmjust0:
1.  "We got some does today! (  )"
2.  "Hmmm...breeding...We'll just pay for stud service!" 
3.  "Um, does anybody offer stud service?" 
4.  "Ohno, nobody offers stud service...now what?" 
5.  "We bought a buck today...  (  )" 
6.  "No, sorry, we don't offer stud services.  Too risky."  (Read that "Um, no...you're not getting off that easy, noob...  If we have to put up with a stinkin' buck, so do you. (  )")

Round and round and round she goes._

*SO TRUE!!!! You CRACK ME UP!*


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## ksalvagno (Sep 18, 2009)

Ok, I'm in the stinky buck business.  Just bought my first buck from Kate (Helmstead). Thanks Kate! I don't need a buck till next year but Kate posted pictures of him. I'm very excited about him. I'm also currently looking at another buck from a farm close by and will post pics if I buy him. 

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2288


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## trestlecreek (Sep 18, 2009)




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## lilhill (Sep 18, 2009)

Congratulations!  I know both the sire and dam and you've got a very nice buckling.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Ok, I'm in the stinky buck business.  Just bought my first buck from Kate (Helmstead). Thanks Kate! I don't need a buck till next year but Kate posted pictures of him. I'm very excited about him. I'm also currently looking at another buck from a farm close by and will post pics if I buy him.
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2288


Wow!  He's a cutie!  Got any mini-nubian bucks?     

***editing because I put a question mark in the wrong place and it made it seem like I didn't think the buckling was cute.   ****


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## helmstead (Sep 18, 2009)

Congrats Karen!  I cannot tell you guys, we were _this close_, I mean _really this close _to keeping Omo.  The problem was, to keep him I'd have to have sold BBB...and BBB is my BOY.  I love that buck to pieces, he is the sweetest thing ever.  So, BBB stays, Omo goes.  It's really a good thing my DH set a limit on bucks...there have been SO many available this year that I would have been all over.  

As far as Mini Nubis...  ...Scarlett's udder is building and she is GINORMOUS.  She's due late October!  WOO HOO!  We'll have our first F1s!  The sire is Rider - who is a Baywatch son and decendant of RA Kingwood!  There are at least two in there


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## FlightsofFancy (Sep 18, 2009)

congrats!!!


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 18, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Congrats Karen!  I cannot tell you guys, we were _this close_, I mean _really this close _to keeping Omo.  The problem was, to keep him I'd have to have sold BBB...and BBB is my BOY.  I love that buck to pieces, he is the sweetest thing ever.  So, BBB stays, Omo goes.  It's really a good thing my DH set a limit on bucks...there have been SO many available this year that I would have been all over.
> 
> As far as Mini Nubis...  ...Scarlett's udder is building and she is GINORMOUS.  She's due late October!  WOO HOO!  We'll have our first F1s!  The sire is Rider - who is a Baywatch son and decendant of RA Kingwood!  There are at least two in there


Oh MAN!  I can't wait to see what happens with Scarlett!!!


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## mdoerge (Sep 18, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Ok, I'm in the stinky buck business.  Just bought my first buck from Kate (Helmstead). Thanks Kate! I don't need a buck till next year but Kate posted pictures of him. I'm very excited about him. I'm also currently looking at another buck from a farm close by and will post pics if I buy him.
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2288


Congrats Karen!  Just out of curiosity - how are you going to get him from Georgia to Ohio?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 18, 2009)

Kate is coming up to Indiana Thanksgiving weekend and I will meet her there.

Mary, who are you going to breed your girls to?


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