# Someone tell me why my LGD just grabbed and pinned my goat...



## BlueMoonFarms (May 13, 2013)

I just practically body slammed Trinity a moment ago because I looked outside and found her  with her moth on my does back *appeared to be gentle, not even spit was on the goat or ruffled hair* trying to bring her to the ground it seemed.
Trinity, my good LGD, six month old pup, just did something that I have never seen her do before.
She has been a little bit pawy with them lately, especially with my milking doe annie, but she has never chased down and pinned a goat before! That was Mara and we fixed that, Mara is not pretty well behaved until the lamb instigates chase. *Yes the blasted lamb head buts mara and wont stop until Mara plays with her*
Now, what happened:
My hubby enjoys hand milking Annie, and measuring her milk and such, so he wanted to change her milking schedule. Annie of course started wailing, and kept it up for about two hours. I looked outside and thats when I spotted Annie screaming and Trinity following her and licking at her face. Then Annie took off and Trinity followed. THAT was when Annie took off like a shot and Trinity ran up and grabbed her.
I made such a screaming/yelling/snarling racket that i think it made the neighbors question my treatment of animals....Anyway, please tell me this is fixable and wont happen again. And PLEASE tell me why my best LGD out of the both of them, who has never had a problem, suddenly did what she did.


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 13, 2013)

Ok, I just went out to see her since I like to reassure good behaviour and let them know im not going to rush out and pin them every time I go outside, and she is very humbled. She is immediately backing off any of the goats when I say the Ah-at sound, so that's at least making me feel a little bit better.
I am still shocked at what she did, and thankfully she appears to of recognized she did wrong, at least I hope she has.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 13, 2013)

I think being six months old may be part of it.  Puppyhood, a change in pattern, and a goat who was showing signs of distress could have just sent her over the edge for a minute.  Glad you caught her in the act and 'explained' to her that her behavior was unacceptable.


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 13, 2013)

frustratedearthmother said:
			
		

> I think being six months old may be part of it.  Puppyhood, a change in pattern, and a goat who was showing signs of distress could have just sent her over the edge for a minute.  Glad you caught her in the act and 'explained' to her that her behavior was unacceptable.


I hate pinning them, they always act so depressed and dejected afterwords, but I thought this time it was mandatory. 
The snarling and yelling I think is what got it through the most though. My husband thought from the racket I made that Trinity had killed Annie. I hope I did that right.
Anyway, I really hope everything added up is what caused it because I do not want this happening again.


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## bcnewe2 (May 13, 2013)

She is a baby, the doe ran quickly wailing which kicks in Trinity's prey/play drive. 6 months is an age where they are trying to figure out all the instincts that are coming out in themselves. Strong corrections are good lessons because they remember them next time.
But I have to say, get over it . She will be wonderful when she's grown up.  Learning is all part of the game.  

I train stock dogs to herd stock.  We have a saying...
You have to let the dog make the mistake so it can learn what is wrong and what is right.  I think it's the same with an LGD.


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 13, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> She is a baby, the doe ran quickly wailing which kicks in Trinity's prey/play drive. 6 months is an age where they are trying to figure out all the instincts that are coming out in themselves. Strong corrections are good lessons because they remember them next time.
> But I have to say, get over it . She will be wonderful when she's grown up.  Learning is all part of the game.
> 
> I train stock dogs to herd stock.  We have a saying...
> You have to let the dog make the mistake so it can learn what is wrong and what is right.  I think it's the same with an LGD.


Yeah get over it, is probably not the best thing to say....
I have been having lots of issues with her sister chasing since we brought her home, so chasing in general is a big no no for me.
I have no doubt trinity will be fine and will move forward, which is why I am not to to worried, but im just a bit paranoid about the chasing due to her sister. *Who thankfully is not chasing as much anymore since the sheep just bowl her over when she does* Though I do understand what your saying, dont get me wrong, it was just a nightmare with Mara.
Live stock guardians are new to me, training show dogs, behaviour training problem dogs, and dealing with animal control dogs is what i am used to, so working with instincts is new. Shes just been so good I never expected to see her do something like that, though I am happy to hear that this might have just been an accident or over excitement. I would hate to have to go through this all over again with trinity X_X


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## bcnewe2 (May 13, 2013)

It was meant tongue in cheek, (that's why i put the wink emoticon) as in, it happened and you have to move forward.  If you hang on to your worries she will pick up on it.  I really don't think any lgd pup should be judged for the steep learning curve we put on them.  Think what a different breed would be up to at that age.  They really are babies.  

I'm still going to say you really do have to get over it to move forward.  No insults intended.  

Guess I need to go back and read your stories about your lgd's but you don't really say much about the past issues in this post.  

Chasing is a big no for me too.  But after corrections are made, we move on quickly.  Are you babying her or her sister when they act depressed and dejected? If you are, they are learning how to work you at a young age.  If you act like the correction is just a learning moment and not something to be stressed about I think you messages will be clearer.  

My dogs all learn how to take a correction (depending on the dog as to what that means) and learn from it.  Its not punishment.  Just learning, no hard feelings from them to me or me to them.

Think of it as pressure on, pressure off.  Corrections are pressure, we all
give to pressure including the dogs. If my lgd chases a chicken or lamb, she is younger than your dogs, I yell or scruff her or whatever it takes for me to see her thinking whatever she did was a bad choice, after that I let up and walk away.  Over and done.  That way learning isn't bad just matter of fact.  

How did you train problem dogs before?


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## Grazer (May 14, 2013)

BlueMoonFarms, all you can do is set your puppies up for success and remain consistent.
Basically that means you never leave them unsupervised with any farm animals until they have proven to be trustworthy. Which usually happens by the time they turn 18 months/2 years.
And you have to continue to correct them when they show any desire to chase the livestock, and then praise them when they behave nicely around them. But praise them in a calm manner, so they don't get too exited.
Excitement can lead to chasing.

When you correct your puppies, try not to get angry. I know it's easier said than done, but believe me your corrections will impress them more if you remain calm and in control.
Correcting dogs doesn't means you have to get physical with them, they key is to act with confidence and authority.
Bcnewe2 is right, you should try to never be too emotional or worried when you correct dogs if you can help it. Because they'll pick up on it and just feel confused or even worse, stop taking you seriously.


I've posted these links on another thread about LGD's chasing livestock, but I will post them here too. They are so helpful on how to deal with stubborn LGD puppies:


http://www.luckyhit.net/guardd01.htm 

http://www.luckyhit.net/guardd05.htm 

http://www.milkandhoneyfarm.com/dogs/training.html


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## Southern by choice (May 14, 2013)

A couple of things here...
this was Trinity, given her good record this I'm sure was a bit unusual.

I would have let it play out a bit longer and here is why.

Often an inexperienced person will jump to a conclusion and not know what was really happening. You said at first she had her mouth on her but no damp coat etc,  that makes me thing differently.  The goat was screaming took off running and she chased after her.
This is one I would have not intervened so quickly. These dogs are smart and often if we are not very carefully observant we can get it wrong. NOT saying you did or it was it just happens often.

Example- My kids a  few months ago yelled for me and said Callie ( the Anatolian) was putting her mouth on the babies and standing over them and they thought she was going to hurt them. Because I know my dogs, and Callie was 1 year I knew right away... NOPE... I went to the back where she was... she did indeed have her mouth on the 1 month old kid and was standing over her... I told my kids to watch.... Callie was gently trying to "MOVE" the kid back to its screaming mother. The doe was frantically calling and the kid wasn't going, Callie was ever so gently standing over and mouth on kid to "walk" the kid back to mom. 

You see at first glance we can get it wrong. Overeact and start screaming.

The second scenario you mentioned. Hmmm I 'd a let it play out for two reason. One to see what and why she was doing this and also she is still a pup. Pups can get very confused with an animal screaming in distress. With a young pup they sometimes aren't sure what to do. It is like when you have 2 dogs that are heightened for some reason and they start fighting with each other. Correction required is a must yes, but sometimes it isn't what we think at first glance.

It is common thought that it takes 18-24 months. Truthfully by 12 months the dogs should be stable and very perfected by 18 months.
That doesn't mean a new situation etc may not need to be worked with. The basic soundness of the dog should be evident though.
Occassionally my Pyrs put their big paws up on the goats... it is either to calm the goat, or they want the goat to stay where they are, it can be a protection thing too. Sometimes I have seen the boys bop a goat on the head with their paw... why ... the goat is being aggressive for no reason and the dogs will calm the animal... almost like they are saying "chill" its ok.

I really think 5-8 months is the hardest time for these dogs. Also I want to remind you she can go into heat as early as 8-9 months and generally a month before they can be realllllll idiots. So watch for stupid during that time.

*@ GRAZER- milk n honey farm I have talked with them before. They are great
 the other sites are showing up with MALWARE so I can't get  to them.*


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 14, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> It was meant tongue in cheek, (that's why i put the wink emoticon) as in, it happened and you have to move forward.  If you hang on to your worries she will pick up on it.  I really don't think any lgd pup should be judged for the steep learning curve we put on them.  Think what a different breed would be up to at that age.  They really are babies.
> 
> I'm still going to say you really do have to get over it to move forward.  No insults intended.
> 
> ...


Ok, glad you clarified that!  I figured that was your intent, but
Yeah, her sister was a monster for about four months, and just now calmed down since I separated her in with the sheep, and to top it off she was MOUTHY very very mouthy, and it was ever only with Annie. Omg its always Annie!!
Ugh...
And no, I usually wait an hour or two after harsh discipline to go out and reassure good behaviour, but i never baby them when they are acting all depressed and leery of me. I just dont want them to think that i am out to pin them every single second im in the pens with them. Usually its a cookie after they sit, or just a pat on the head when they come on command or stay.
By problem dogs, I mean overly active, fence hoppers, biters that owners insisted on living with, frightened dogs, and obsessive barkers. Usually its just a simple regaining of trust, giving alpha status to the owner, or changing owners behaviour. 
Non of which can be used here, since its all working with instinct. I am getting the hang of it thanks to the people on this forum and Southern.


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 14, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> A couple of things here...
> this was Trinity, given her good record this I'm sure was a bit unusual.
> 
> I would have let it play out a bit longer and here is why.
> ...


They have been getting about two hours of play time for the past week while we have been outside, so should I just keep that up, or tack on another hour?
And if Trinity does it again, should I just let her do it and see what happens then?
Because I mean Annie was really running like a fruit cake with trinity right behind her, then I saw Trinity's mouth on Annie's back and Annie going to the ground, and then yeah, I freaked...
I ran outside, lept the fence and barreled into her then pinned her and started snarling. 
Mara paws the lamb when she starts head butting her, and will trot after her when the lamb takes off running, but I have never had trinity so much as think about chasing goats before!


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 15, 2013)

Well, yesterday Trinity did it again.
Although this time she grabbed Annie by the neck and there was spit and ruffled hair.
I snarled for her to knock it off, and immediately Trinity did.
This time, we were herding the sheep and catching them one by one to administer lice and mite powder.
I think Trinity gets over exited when something is running, and is taking it out on Annie, because for some reason everyone and there mother loves to beat on that poor goat, and its ONLY ever Annie...
I have known she LOVES to chase birds and is overly interested in the frolicking lamb, but its only ever really the birds, and that's why shes never allowed in with the chickens and ducks, just all of a sudden shes going after Annie when ever she is hyped.
Any advice on how i can redirect this energy?


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## woodsie (May 15, 2013)

I would NOT let her chase and see what happens....she probably won't actually hurt her but I have found that the PLAY can be the worst problems to break as it is self rewarding. I start with a little chase, she runs, I chase more, she runs faster.....if you can stop her at the thought of the chase she is much less likely to set up a bad pattern. Lots of praise when she stops instantly....so goes like this - Dog perks up and has that "play stance" bum in air or starting to rear on back legs, you say say in loud calm voice "AHKK!" she stops  and stands and looks at you, then praise her with a calm gentle "good girl". My Pyrs seem to respond much better when I can praise what I want them to do (stop playing/chasing)...I think because they have been corrected before they have discovered how fun chasing is. 

My male particularily shuts down if I use to harsh force...I have an shock collar/invisible fence running along the fence line and he would not even walk close to the fence for me to walk the perimeter with him because after one WARNING beep he completely shuts down and runs for cover (he had previous homes so there may be excessive force in this history). If I can use small gentle correction I seem to keep their attention longer and get better results. 

You may have to hang out in the pasture for a day or two and keep a close eye so you can correct anything right in the bud...but in my opinion, time well spent as you will have a lot less bad habits to break.

Let us know how it goes! Good luck!


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## Stubbornhillfarm (May 15, 2013)

Blue Moon, sorry to hear this.  I would just encourage you, as we recently have gone through the puppy age that yours are in now.  Just stay on them.  Watch them, correct them, encourage them, and try to remember they are puppies.  I truly think that was the biggest challenge for us.  These LGD's are soooooo good most of the time.  So trustworthy, responsible and adult like, that we (as owners) become to expect more from them.  If they were a black lab, golden retriever, boxer,...insert breed here;  we wouldn't be surprised with the puppy behavior.  But because of how the LGD's are normally even as puppies, we are taken a-back.  

Ours are now 13 months old.  They are allowed in the house for a couple of hours in the early evening.  Last week, our female decided to tear into our couch in the basement.  NEVER, has she done anything like this before and I was appauled.  But when our black lab was a puppy, he did stuff like this and WORSE for probably the first year of his life.  

I would keep working with both pups.  Really watch them to see if you can figure out what is triggering this behaviour.  It may be something that you can correct by changing the situation.  JMO


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## Southern by choice (May 15, 2013)

I do not believe she is "playing" hence the suggestion to watch. It is a behavior issue. *This is not play behavior *hence the suggestion to allow it to follow through a bit. This is completely out of character for this dog this is why I do not see this as play. 

In almost every chase issue it is always the weakest goat, bottom of the pecking order. Yes correction is needed but when you grasp the behavior issue you will have more success in correcting the problem.


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 15, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> I do not believe she is "playing" hence the suggestion to watch. It is a behavior issue. *This is not play behavior *hence the suggestion to allow it to follow through a bit. This is completely out of character for this dog this is why I do not see this as play.
> 
> In almost every chase issue it is always the weakest goat, bottom of the pecking order. Yes correction is needed but when you grasp the behavior issue you will have more success in correcting the problem.


Im not entirely sure its play either as she usually only plays with her sister, never the goats.
However, she is displaying the same play actions that she shows with her sister. paws on the back, mouthing along the spine or neck, and chasing.
She is usually fine all day until around milking time, and its only since Adam switched Annie around and she started wailing, *which i forced hubby to go back to a similar schedule to try and eliminate the problem.* 
When we chase things to catch them, Trinity is usually pacing, ears pricked, and panting with her eyes intently focused on what ever it is were after. She tends to jump around a lot, and whine. She acts almost like our Siberian husky when the lamb gets close to her pen, and we KNOW what she wants *lamb chops* 
I dont think she wants to hurt anyone, and I might have seen this behaviour before in a golden retriever who just got so excited it literally spazzed and just started chasing its tail and barking. 
What we did for that dog was change of scenery and pattern. When the dog got excited it was taken for a walk, or redirected into "go find your ball" obviously I cant tell Trinity to go find her bone because shes a bit smarter then that, and im not sure if letting her out to play with her sister instead might help redirect it.
Then again, I have no idea what shes trying to do with Annie.


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## BlueMoonFarms (May 15, 2013)

Stubbornhillfarm said:
			
		

> Blue Moon, sorry to hear this.  I would just encourage you, as we recently have gone through the puppy age that yours are in now.  Just stay on them.  Watch them, correct them, encourage them, and try to remember they are puppies.  I truly think that was the biggest challenge for us.  These LGD's are soooooo good most of the time.  So trustworthy, responsible and adult like, that we (as owners) become to expect more from them.  If they were a black lab, golden retriever, boxer,...insert breed here;  we wouldn't be surprised with the puppy behavior.  But because of how the LGD's are normally even as puppies, we are taken a-back.
> 
> Ours are now 13 months old.  They are allowed in the house for a couple of hours in the early evening.  Last week, our female decided to tear into our couch in the basement.  NEVER, has she done anything like this before and I was appauled.  But when our black lab was a puppy, he did stuff like this and WORSE for probably the first year of his life.
> 
> I would keep working with both pups.  Really watch them to see if you can figure out what is triggering this behaviour.  It may be something that you can correct by changing the situation.  JMO


Hey thanks for that! 
It is hard to remember there only six months old when there SO BIG and yet so so good at the same time.
Mara appears to have turned around for the best and she listens very well now because of the intense work we had to put into her for a few months, so i am hoping the same will be for Trinity as soon as we figure out how to work with her new habit.
Thanks for the encouragement!


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## treeclimber233 (May 16, 2013)

What I did to stop the mouthing and slobbering on the neck/shoulder area was to put a little tabasco sauce on the goat.  Last year Drift was really slobbering up all the babies.  All the babies seemed to be fair game to him.  This year I added an 8 week old buckling to the herd.  Since he does not have a mother to run to he is the bottom of the heap.  Drift started mouthing him so I immediately put some tobacco sauce on him.  Worked like a charm.


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## treeclimber233 (May 16, 2013)

What I did to stop the mouthing and slobbering on the neck/shoulder area was to put a little tabasco sauce on the goat.  Last year Drift was really slobbering up all the babies.  All the babies seemed to be fair game to him.  This year I added an 8 week old buckling to the herd.  Since he does not have a mother to run to he is the bottom of the heap.  Drift started mouthing him so I immediately put some tobacco sauce on him.  Worked like a charm.


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## goat boy (May 17, 2013)

Hi I have had a huge problem with my LGD. he chases the goats he bites there ears back and drags them across the feild by there leg somtimes. i have no idea what to do. i go out there yell at him spank him slap his nose tell him NO nothing works and keeps on doing that to the newborn kids that are 4 weeks. What do i do?


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## Southern by choice (May 17, 2013)

This is really bad goatboy. How old is your dog?
Is this with kids only or adults too?
Immediately get a prong collar keep him on lead and if he even looks funny at the animal you correct immediately. Smacking hitting will do nothing . Sharp pull and firm No, you may need to roll him.

Prong collars are extremely effective, they do not hurt the animal but are very good  used in correcting. They do NO damage to the trachea like chokers or nylon collars do. More effective than shock collars too. 

Out of field spending time in basic obedience will also allow the dog to understand good behavior and a desire to please ( although thats not high priority on the LGD mind).


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## Eteda (Oct 17, 2017)

quote........she was MOUTHY very very mouthy, and it was ever only with Annie. Omg its always Annie!! 

*      sounds to me as if Annie is very reluctant to submit to the dogs authority.  I learned to trust the judgement of my dog. My pyr would jump on my ram and they would both go at it until the dog got his point across. I would tell the dog no and I would tie him just out of reach so he couldn't reach me to be petted. he really hated that. I would just tie him for 5 minutes. then release him. I thought my dog was wrong. I am so glad my dog for gave my ignorance.  Im so glad that is the only thing I did to punish him. Im so glad my dog loves me beyond measure. I began to watch from afar. when the dog sensed danger he will make a sweep across the pasture to move the herd away or to call them up to the barn.  The ram would always pick a fight when the dog was trying to move the herd. one dog 30 plus adult ewes. He had a job to do and needed the ram to corporate. 
    it's just as if you have a small child and it is walking into danger. you need to be able to control the child from a distance and they need to , stop and come hear now without question.   or perhaps fixing to step where they shouldn't - stop don't move, stand still.  without control you can't protect sometimes in some situations.
       I think the dog is coming of age and asserting her authority and teaching the goat to mind. I have one ewe that is always mad and picking fights with the other ewes. the dog usta put his head on her back and act as if he was going to mount her like a ram. she hated this and would move out from under his head pressure.  this went on for about a month. I finally took her to the vet for a checkup. I told my vet my dog knows something I don't and explained what was going on and asked him if he could swab for cancer. He found that she has a hole in the membrane between her rectum and vagina. their for she has a constant vaganal discharge that the dog would also try to clean. I thought for a few days that the dog had chosen this ewe for himself to breed. cause it did look odd. but then I remembered all the times before when I doubted him and thought he was wrong when it was I who was just ignorant.  I guess she is always mad cause she's in pain. but the dog keeps her moving to keep her from picking on the others. when she leaves them alone he leaves her alone. He follows her slowly every where she goes and if she stops to but heads he pushes her and moves her feet.slowly all at a walk. if she stops and lays down he lays down. Its been a little over a year ago since the situation began and the pyr just about has her broke of fighting with the other ewes. I am glad my pyr took charge of the situation. I had to separate her one day her forehead was bloody and I thought the other ewes were going to kill her. 5 ewes had ganged up on her and were all ramming her from different sides. I put her in a stall and let everyone have a 30 minute time out. the pyr was smart enough to realize what I was doing breaking up the fight in a peaceful way and from that day onward he took over the task for me.  I wish I could find some vet or doctor to fix it for her. she is just 3 years old. they fix it in humans. why can't they fix it in sheep. it's only about an inch or so from the outside. I have asked my vet. hes afraid it might do more harm to try the repair. I am open to ideas. i'm currently researching for information. 
         I spent the first year and a half doubting my dog and second guessing him. thinking he was wrong.  nope he never has been in 7 years. sometimes his patience wares a little thin. every parent's dose. I hired him to do a job, and I pay him to do a job. 24 hours a day 7 days a week. he is out their every day and night he knows more about the situation than I do. I know only what I see. he knows what started " it " and " who " and hour befor. *


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## Eteda (Oct 18, 2017)

yep goat boy that sounds bad. get him some toys and play with him with the toys maybe. just like you would teach a house dog to play with his toys and leave your shoes alone.  they are smart. tell him goats are not play things that is work. be serious when you're in with the goats and watchful, attentive and alert, set an example. walk the boundaries. I wouldn't allow him in with them by himself until her grew out of that stage. Im ruined, my dog trained himself and me. LOL  Im fortunate to have such a wonderful dog. I sure hope my next one is like him. I can't imagine not having a pyr now. I have been wondering if and when is it time to bring in another pup for him to train before he is to old to do so. He is my first and Im not fully trained yet so Im trying to learn some averages and get some ideas. my dog chewed my water hose every time i left it where he could get to it. I got tired one day after 18 months of buying and protecting water hoses.
     I picked up the hose pieces one day and shook it at him saying I sure wish you'd quit chewing my hoses I've had enough. he ain't chewed one since.
     another occasion I got mad at him for digging a black hole in the stall. so I said to him with anger in my voice.
If you're gonna dig a hole, go dig one out there in the middle of the pasture where I can cover it up with the tractor.
  well the next day to my astonishment , their out in the middle of the pasture was a large black hole. you know the kind 4 feet wide 7 feet deep and 15 feet long. and that's just a starter hole.  I kid you not he did.
   I've learned to be really careful *how* and *what* I say to my dog.  all I have to do is say, Gabe, *what* are you doing? and he will change the way he is doing something in order to accomplish the same goal. He had the ram cornered one day cause he wasn't letting the pregnant ewes eat. He was growling at the ram warning him. But this upset the ewes. so I asked him, Gabe, what are you doing?   He got quiet. and when the ram went past him, he began mounting the ram. shaming him into the corner. He put the ram back in the corner with out a sound and held him their while the ewe ate.  the ewes were calm and eating without the growling. realizing I should have kept my nose out of my dogs business and I was wrong to question him. I left him alone and said nothing.  Im learning. Ill be a better pyr owner because of him. I am just blessed and lucky. I've had my road paved with my pyr. your road is just dirt road and has some bigger hills in it but it leads to the same place. a love and need for a great breed of dog. one day you will have a great dog too. Ill probably need some of your experiences with my next pup. hang in their.  I agree with southern by choice. I've used prong collars on dogs and they work instant and great used properly. however the dog has to understand what it is doing is wrong and not desired by you before you can punish him for it.  just as a young child has to understand what stealing is and that it is wrong. before you can punish them for it. conscious and awareness of one actions is important. but its bred into the dogs to have it. sounds like a late bloomer. keep me posted. I want to learn what to do also in that situation. I can guess, but I don't* know.*  that's a big difference. any one know how it worked out or if the dog ever quit?


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## BrendaMNgri (Oct 20, 2017)

This thread is over four years old…..instead of digging it up can you just start a new one please and make it specific to your own dog/issues/questions etc. Thanks.


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