# Choosing a coccidiostat



## Ariel301 (Dec 5, 2010)

I think I am having issues with my kids and coccidiosis, I have realized that my kids are not growing at quite the rate they should be. (I always thought it was normal until I noticed that other people's LaManchas at the same age were a good deal bigger than mine!) So, I am planning to start giving this next round of kids a coccidiostat to see if it makes any difference in their growth and feed efficiency (some of my kids so far have been thin and "ribby" all the time despite more than enough feed and negative fecal checks for worms). 

I've been looking through catalogs to see what is available, and to me it seems the most cost-effective one I can find is a powdered medication to mix into feed. I know a lot of people on here like to use Di-Methox drench, but that one looks really pricey compared to the powdered mix-in. My kids would be able to get the powder in their feed without the milking does getting into it, because I begin separating the kids part-time from the does (they are dam-raised) at 2-3 weeks old, so they could be fed easily in their separate pen.  

The bag on this one is labeled for cattle, but the vet I talked to at this place recommended this one to me for use in goats or sheep also. http://shoppingcart.pipevet.com/RU-MIX-5-P1302.aspx They also suggested this might be a good one: http://shoppingcart.pipevet.com/DECCOX-2-BAG-P1159.aspx They recommended mixing the two pound bag of Deccox with 50 pounds of salt/mineral and feeding it to kids and dry does free-choice. That seems pretty economical, as 50 pounds of salt lasts in my small herd quite a long time. Thoughts on either?


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

Use the injectable, orally.  You use less of it, and therefore save money.  I don't even go through 2 bottles of it a year...so, less than $60 a year - well worth it.

Those items you've listed are coccistats, quite different than Dimethox, Albon, etc.  They don't treat cocci, they simply limit it.


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## Roll farms (Dec 5, 2010)

Plus, you won't know how much ea. kid is getting.  
With cocci, you want to *know* they're getting the right amount (therapuetic level).  Economics don't matter if the method you choose isn't working.

I spend 24$ (2 packs of powder) w/ Jeffers on the DiMethox per year.  
I mix 1 pack of powder w/ 1.5 c. of water (shake well, don't inhale the dust, it's NASTY).  Store it in the fridge.
The dosage I use is 1 cc per 10# day one, then 1 cc per 20# days 2-5....I repeat every 21 days until a good hard frost (by which time the kids are older and well started on a feed w/ deccox in it.

I don't put it in their milk, I drench it straight.  They hate it, so make sure you get it far back enough that they can't spit it back out. 

I have seen the proof in increased weight gain / growth of our kids.


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

The only thing I'd like to mention about the reconstituted powder, Roll, is that it is NOT shelf stable.  It begins to loose potency after about a week in the fridge, and the older it gets, the less potent it is.

Whereas, the injectable IS shelf stable.

IMO when using the powder, you should make only as much solution as you'd need within a week's time.


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## Ariel301 (Dec 5, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Those items you've listed are coccistats, quite different than Dimethox, Albon, etc.  They don't treat cocci, they simply limit it.


Preventative is what I'm wanting. I have never found my kids to have an acute case, they are not showing signs of sickness--no diarrhea, never off feed or lethargic or anything, and so far I have not even seen a large load of cocci in a fecal, but my kids just aren't all growing quite as fast as they should or utilizing feed as well as they might. I notice it gets worse in warmer weather, pretty much any kid born later than March seems to get their growth stunted here really badly, we just put a couple of wethers in the freezer that were born in April and they were no more than 30 pounds and very thin despite good feed and deworming. Kids born in January/February will grow a ton until it heats up, then stop, then pick up again in winter, but the gap during the summer really puts them behind. I just always assumed it was the heat bothering them, but a farm down the road has huge, fat kids (some are half or full siblings to some of mine) that were born in July, so obviously something else is going on. They are adding a coccidiostat to their kids' bottles. Much as I hate to cram chemicals down their throats, it seems in this case it might be a good idea. I had cocci issues this year with my young chickens also. :/

The vet I talked to recommended treating my dry does pre-kidding to lower the level of cocci making it to the soil before the kids arrive, and then treating the kids with a medicated feed between 3 weeks and weaning. But, that vet is also in Iowa, where the cocci species and conditions may be very different from my farm, something else to keep in mind I guess. 

Not knowing how much each kid is eating would be a drawback, I really wouldn't like that too much. If I could figure out the dosage for whatever one I end up choosing, I could make a drench like Roll says, or if they will eat it, I could top dress it on some grain for each kid, perhaps. Hmm...I'll look at the DiMethox powder and injectible, I haven't seen it other than as a liquid meant for drenching and ordering that big gallon bottle is rather expensive. No one local carries anything for cocci, the feed stores really only have horse products. 



> Economics don't matter if the method you choose isn't working.


I absolutely agree, that's why I want to do a good deal of research and also see what is working or not working for others before I make a decision. I don't want to buy something cheap and then it does nothing, that would be a big waste of money and time.


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

You MUST use a cocci TREATMENT on kids to see the results you're wanting...take it from us.  Sure, you should be using a medicated feed, too...but you will short your goats by not doing a full protocol.


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## Roll farms (Dec 5, 2010)

Also, just an FYI, I've never had any luck preventing it w/ medicated feed ALONE in young kids.   We tried.  It failed, miserably.
They just can't eat enough of the deccox when they're small to get it up to therapeutic levels.   We *have* to use DiMethox. 

I have toyed w/ the idea of buying deccox crumbles and adding it to their feed to "up" the amount per feeding but....the DiMethox is working so I decided not to fix what's not broken.

Also, fwiw, our kids weren't showing obvious signs of illness, either.  Just general unthriftiness, slow gains, etc.  Fecals showed cocci, but not alarming amounts.  

This is the formulation Kate is suggesting, drench it straight.

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/di-methox-injection-40#37;-250-ml/camid/LIV/cp/A2-AE/


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

I even go so far now as to add Decoxx-M to my bottles...which has also helped tremendously.  My kids look FANTASTIC this year.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 5, 2010)

I have also followed a strict schedule of DiMethox on all of our kids as a preventative regardless of the absence of symptoms.  Same as Kate, I drench with the injectable and although it's pricey per bottle it really isn't expensive per dose.  And although we haven't yet (knock on wood) had cocci issues the peace of mind it provides having it on hand makes it well worth the cost IMO.

Even without medicated feed (but with prevention protocol) we didn't have any cocci issues this year, but we're getting ready to make the switch to medicated feed to keep the soil load down.  Again, peace of mind.  I get pretty nervous about something that may be subclinical and still cause permanent damage.


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## Roll farms (Dec 5, 2010)

Kate- where do you get the Decoxx-M.  I've heard of it, but I'm assuming Jeffers doesn't carry it....and that's who I usually order from.


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

Jeffers has the Deccox-M in 5 lbs bags for around $40


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## Roll farms (Dec 5, 2010)

Well, phooey.   NOW I find it.  Sometimes their site is a pain to search.
I couldn't find it when I did my 'big' order a few weeks ago.
thx


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## Ariel301 (Dec 5, 2010)

Ok, so I need to do the Di-Methox drench for best results? What's the reasoning for doing it orally instead of injecting? What would the dosage be for full size dairy kids, and when/how often would I dose? Also, would it be of any use to give my does a dose before kidding to be sure they're not shedding as much of it onto the ground? The babies are dam-raised so they spend most of their time in the doe pen, and even though it is cleaned daily, they would obviously be exposed to the does' droppings, which I am sure they eat a few of. 

Would it be of benefit to do the medicated feed on top of that treatment, or would that not really be necessary? I want to be sure they're getting enough, but I don't want to overdo it either.


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## Roll farms (Dec 5, 2010)

The medicines are different classes (deccox and dimethox) so you shouldn't have problems w/ the kids / dry does if you give both at the same time....at least, I don't.

I gave you the dosage rate for the powder.  
Kate will have to tell you the dosage for the 40% injectable.

It's per pound either way, given by weight...meaning the overall size the goat reaches won't matter...a 70# LM kid would get the same dose as a 70# mini adult.

I start all our kids on medicated feed, and still treat them every 21 days until they're nearly grown / it starts getting cold.

Mainly because it's easier to start / keep them on the medicated feed rather than start them on something else and then switch over.  By the time I'm done prevention treating w/ DiMethox, they're eating enough to get the deccox levels high enough to work, AND the frost helps keep the cocci levels down as well.

Again, just how I do it here, not saying it's the only or even best way.


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

IMO all goats, especially those under 1 yr and except for those being milked or butchered for human consumption, should be on medicated feed.  It won't overdo anything.


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## Ariel301 (Dec 5, 2010)

So helmstead, you would give the medicated feed to dry does in between milking seasons, and to all kids not destined for slaughter until they are a year old or producing milk for human consumption?

I think I will order both, then. Thanks for the help!


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

The key is to keep soil loads down - which is what the medicated feed helps with.  Since I walk from one pen to another, including my nursery pen, I need the soil loads to be low as possible all around.

So, yes, all my goats are on medicated feed all the time.


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## ()relics (Dec 5, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> The key is to keep soil loads down - which is what the medicated feed helps with.  Since I walk from one pen to another, including my nursery pen, I need the soil loads to be low as possible all around.
> 
> So, yes, all my goats are on medicated feed all the time.


Mine as well...and then anything that shows any sort of acute symptoms get the extra sulfadimethoxine treatment, which is usually not too many.   Sanitation is really important.  Dirty pens= cocci oocysts laying around for kids to eat.  Some farms have mild strains of coccidiosis while others have the killer strains...Fortunately, I must have a  very mild strain as I haven't lost a kid in years and only treated 1 kid last year, beyond the medication in the feed.


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## Ariel301 (Dec 5, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Plus, you won't know how much ea. kid is getting.
> With cocci, you want to *know* they're getting the right amount (therapuetic level).  Economics don't matter if the method you choose isn't working.
> 
> I spend 24$ (2 packs of powder) w/ Jeffers on the DiMethox per year.
> ...


Have you got any idea approximately how many ccs one of those packs makes? Or how many kids it would treat, or just something to give me an idea how much I'd need to order if I go with the powder instead of the injectable? I'd like to be sure to order enough of what I get to last the whole season so I don't have to order again and pay more shipping charges. It sounds like it goes a long way though, I'm sure you have way more kids than I do every year, I've only got four does kidding this time around, so around 8 or so kids.

I'm huge on sanitation with my herd. I don't have any option right now but to keep my goats in fairly small pens, so I rake them out daily and change the bedding in their sheds at least once a week. I have feeders that they can't climb in, so the hay stays pretty clean, and the water  is changed any time I notice it's contaminated since I can't seem to find any water that works for goats of multiple sizes and stays clean. The mineral feeder is also about as contamination proof as you can get with goats. I also change clothes/shoes and shower before handling my animals if I have been to another property with animals on it, so there is no cross-herd contamination. But, kids are kids, and everything that hits the ground will go in their mouths...


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## helmstead (Dec 5, 2010)

LOTS...it makes just over 1.5 cups, that's a bunch of cc's 

I would say, in your situation, the shelf stable injectable is the way to go...no mixing, no tossing what goes bad.  It'll probably last you FOREVER too...

Altho you could just break down the powder with a gram scale and make as little as you needed, seal the bag...etc...but I'm too lazy for gram scales these days


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## Roll farms (Dec 6, 2010)

1/2 of 1.5 cups would be 12 oz of water....1/4 would be 6 oz of water.

1 oz = roughly 30 cc.   

So with 1/4 of the packet, you'd add 6 oz of water for roughly 180 cc of medicine.

Say the kid weighs 20# when you start treatment...they'd get 2 cc day 1, then 1 cc per day for 4-6 more days (depending on how long you want to treat, either 5-7 days.)

We'll say 5 days total for this example.  
2cc on day one, then 1cc per day for days 2-5 = 6 cc total, to treat 1 - 20# kid.  

ASSuming all kids are roughly the same age / weight, 6 cc x 8 kids = 48 cc of product used.

As kids' weight increase, so does the dosage.  So when the kids weigh 40# it'd take 12 ml per 5 day treatment.  60# would take 18 ml per kid.

The only time I've mixed partial packets is in the fall when I want to do one last round of prevention before the snow flies.
Typically I mix the entire packet b/c I know I will have used it all in a month or two in the summertime.

It may lose some potency, but refrigeration helps.

(If my math is off anywhere, forgive me...not enough coffee yet...)


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## poorboys (Dec 6, 2010)

I use the di-methox 40% orally, don't care about the cost, because it works!!!no sick kids, no messing around. I start at 3 weeks, and then every 21 days. I also feed goat power medicated, to their diet. never lost one kid!! two years ago, I use other stuff, I lost 5kids, I'll never go back to using anything else. You always learn from your mistakes. I've had a really good looking group of kids with this method.  Patty


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## Ariel301 (Dec 6, 2010)

Great, thanks for all the help! I'll get some stuff ordered before the kids get here. Hopefully it will make a big difference, this next round of kids is pretty critical since I'm going to be retaining probably all my doelings, so I want them to be big and healthy.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Use the injectable, orally.  You use less of it, and therefore save money.  I don't even go through 2 bottles of it a year...so, less than $60 a year - well worth it.


Someone may have covered this already, but the injectable is actually the most expensive option..  At 125mg/ml, there are rougly 473,125mgs of actual medication in the gallon jug vs. 100,000mgs in the vial.  The vial is $20, versus about $40 for the jug (after shipping).  

That brings the vial to $0.0002/ml, vs. the jug being $0.00008/ml.  That makes the vial of injectable just about 2.5x more expensive than the jug.

The only reason I use the injectable is to avoid having to store yet another gallon jug in my already cramped goatmed cabinet, plus I don't like mixing powdered stuff when I can avoid it.  

Speaking of medications, I'm all doped up on acetominophen, naproxin, dextromethorphan, phenylephrine, amoxicillin, caffeine, and a handful of vitamins and other whatnots at the moment, and I either have a fever or I'm just warm and tingly from the aforementioned shotgun cocktail..  If my numbers are off...forgive me...but I'm pretty sure they're not.  Not off, I mean.  I'm pretty sure that's right.

Whatevs.  I dunno.

I'm having a hard time being coherent today.


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## helmstead (Dec 7, 2010)

But...the jug is only 12.5%, so you have to dose way more of it.  Right?  Or do I need another cup of coffee?


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> But...the jug is only 12.5%, so you have to dose way more of it.  Right?  Or do I need another cup of coffee?


More coffee.  

You don't have to give "way" more -- just about 3x more.  Each ml of the 12.5% contains 125mg of dimethox, versus each ml of the 40% containing 400mg.  125mg*3 = 375mg/3ml...again, vs. 400mg/1ml.  If you wanna get really specific, the multiplication factor would be 3.2 to match 400mg exactly...but 375mg is close enough.

Ok, so there are 3785ml in a gallon, and 3785ml/250ml yields a little over 15...so there's a little more than 15x the *total volume of liquid* in the gallon jug than the vial.  Yet, the vial only contains about 3x the med.  

15 divided by 3 yields 5...meaning there's 5x the total med in the gallon jug.

Since the jug costs about twice the vial, you'd divide that 5 by 2 to get 2.5....which tells you how many more times expensive the vial is, rather than the jug, per mg of medication.  Meaning, it's 2.5x more expensive.

Doesn't matter how much of the physical volume of liquid you use, either...each mg of med in the vial costs you 2.5x what it would cost had you bought the gallon, and the mg/lb dosage is the same either way.


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## helmstead (Dec 7, 2010)

I think my head just exploded...

but...I get it...(to me, 3x is way more)

Mkay.  I'm still gonna use the injectable, because I would hate to have to force more of that stuff down their throats than I have to already LOL I'd wear it all!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Mkay.  I'm still gonna use the injectable, because I would hate to have to force more of that stuff down their throats than I have to already LOL I'd wear it all!


Agreed..  I still totally think it's worth it for lots of reasons, not the least of which being that dirt cheap * 2.5 is still pretty cheap, especially considering what can happen if you don't treat at all.


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