# Is buying at an auction ok?



## annabelle333 (May 8, 2015)

Hello!
I have been a member here for awhile and posted several years ago in a wishful thinking time...but now I am truly ready!  We have a 5 acre spot in Oklahoma that is heavily wooded and I am going to get 2 Nigerian dwarf or pygmy goats in the next week or so to help with clearing and as milk producers for our family.  I am completely overwhelmed in looking at breeders and have recently heard about a goat and sheep auction close by.  We are not looking for papered animals but do want healthy and productive milkers.  I grew up with cattle and horses and feel I know obvious sickness signs and can spot a healthy animal vs. a sick one...but have heard to never buy from an auction.  The problem is all the local farms that raise goats are show goats and honestly we are not looking for papered animals.  What are y'alls opinions about auctions?  What specifically should I look for if we decide to buy from an auction?    Any insight would be helpful!

Thanks!


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## Southern by choice (May 8, 2015)

With goats there are many diseases that you would not want in your herd and unfortunately most of the time you cannot always see evidence of these diseases. CAE (Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis),
CL (Caseous Lymphadenitis- _Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis_, the bacterium that causes the disease) and Johne's (pronounced "Yoh-nees"- which is a wasting disease) are three that many breeders will test for. You do not know about these animals at auction. Truth is many that go to auctions have problems and that is why they are there.  Some auctions are high end with lots of info but many aren't ... depends on the auction.

Keep looking there are many people out there that have goats that don't show and may have goats more in your price range. If you want family milkers then you will need to ask the right questions. A registered or unregistered goat does not guarantee a good family milker.  Some Nigies are soapgoats and pets, some milkers. If you need production than you will need to look for goats that are either proven which generally would be registered and the breeder doing milk tests or stock from tested starred dairy goats or a breeder that can show you the goats production. 

I say this as we have had both unregistered and registered goats. 
We have had registered goats that produced fair, some great. We have had unregistered goats that produced well but had short lactation. Others like our "Millie" (she is a lamancha) is unregistered and is nothing but a milk machine and outshines them all LOL. Her daughter is a mini (slightly taller than a dwarf and 60 lbs) that produces 1/2+ gallon or a little more on her FF with a single. 2nd freshening she will do 3qts a day. We mostly have registered goats now as we are doing different things with our herd... but there are good goats out there. 

Give thought to how much milk you will need. What you will do with it... like cheese, soap, drinking, yogurt etc.
INVEST in goats that can provide what you need. It cost the same to feed, treat, care for, vet etc on a goat that produces well as it does for a goat that produces poorly or barely at all.

Pygmy's have great milk so I am told but are not going to produce what a dairygoat can. Some cross pygmy's/Nigies and they are great little goats for sure but keep in mind the milk you will need.

I know your question was more about auctions but I would steer clear. Find a breeder that can also support you and be there to help and or mentor you. If you have never had goats before you will need help along the way. Look for those that test... CAE, CL, and Johnes.


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## annabelle333 (May 8, 2015)

Awesome advice!  Thank you!  you are right I like the idea of a relationship building opportunity with breeders.


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## alsea1 (May 8, 2015)

It would be worth it to get a goat that you know will produce.
If milk is what you want then shop for a goat from high producing lines. You don't want to waste your time on a mediocre animal.
Auctions are a great place to buy a headache.


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2015)

Auctions are where people dispose of problems.  Goats with diseases, goats that don't produce, goasts that don't settle (get pregnant) are all to be found at auctions.  Even if the goat is healthy when it goes to the auction it can pick up something there.  Don't become attached to an animal that will cost you vet bills.  Like Southern says, it costs thesmae to keep a good animal as a poor one.  Actually it costs more to keep a poor one because of the vet bills.

A good milker is an investment.  She should give about a gallon per day and a healthy goat will live about 14 years.  For 10-12 of those years she will continue to produce milk and kids. If you want milk, I would go with a standard size dairy goat.  The little ones are cute, but those teensy teats are harder to milk.  If you are normal height, leading goats to the stanchion and milking is easier on a full size goat.  Your back will get a work out as it is with trimming hooves, etc.  I prefer not to have to crouch too far over since it hard on the back.

Taste the milk of any goat you buy, before you buy it.  Some have delicious milk, others have ok milk and others have bitter milk.  If you are drinking it everyday, go with the delicious.  If you want to produce sharp cheese, the bitter is ok.  Some people will disagree, but over the years our family preferred Nubian milk, followed by LaMancha.  It is most like cow's milk in flavor and richer than Alpine.  Stay away from Toggenbergs - sorry Togg owners - if it is mostly to be table milk. Also have the owner show youi how tomik and try ot before pourchasing the goat.  Even if you have to make another trip at milking time, some goat teats are problems to milk.  For a first time milker (you) you want easy milkers so you can enjoy it.

Get goats that have been tested for the diseases listed by Southern.  CAE is a crippling disease that can kill,and is passed from doe to kid through unpasteurized milk.  try to buy from someone who pasteurizes all the milk they feed their kids.  (It is not necessary to pasteurize goat milk for human consumption.)  If you avoid bringing disease in from the beginning, you will have a much happier experience with your goats.

Call your local 4-H office and get some names and numbers of goat project leaders in your area.  A lot of them are also breeders on a smaller scale.  The end of the 4-H year is coming and a lot of 18 year old 4-H dairy goat project kids will be graduating from 4-H.  Most of them will sell their animals to finance college.  Since these have been kids' pets they will be docile and used to being handled.  Many of them will be good milkers - ask for records because in a 4-H project the kids have to keep records - and if the kids were showing which 4-Hers do, they will have papers.  Having papers doesn't mean they are expensive, just that they are the breed you think they are.  If no 4-H kids are selling their goats, they are a good source for breeders.  Breeders which work with 4-H kids are used to helping teach newcomers and will be a great source of information.

Once you have your goats identified and chosen, invest in a proper milking stanchion.  You can find patterns inall the books to make one (the double ones are best because soon you will be milking at least 2 LOL) but you can order metal ones on line.  Stainless steel pails, filters and strainers, etc. all can be ordered on line.  The right equipment and the right goats make milking and raising goats a real pleasure.


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## annabelle333 (May 9, 2015)

This is great advice.  Thank you all for your thorough responses!


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## Southern by choice (May 9, 2015)

allright  @Ridgetop  now that is not fair to all of us that do Nigies! Many work very hard at developing great Nigie mikers!  

Nigies are all over the map as far as milk production but  (1 1/2qts -2 qts) is good on a good Nigie!  

I breed Nigies, mini's-  Mini manchas and mini nubian (only one Nubian though)and Standard breeds---- and their production is more than the Nigies (talking minis and standards)

A mini may give 1/2 gallon as FF but by 2nd/3rd f 3qts -1 gallon is not unusual... the *3qt (6lbs) is more norm*.

I really believe people should look at what they need. 1 gallon a day could end up being way too much for a family of 4 yet for other families maybe perfect.

I love my standards as we have moved more in that direction but the mini's are probably the best as far as family milkers. They do give more than a  Nigie, worth milking... but the small size IS advantageous. Less feed less hardship on the land especially for  small farms and easier to handle. A 60 lb goat is far easier to handle and trim hooves on and clip than 100-160 lb goat. Easier to transport if emergency vet trip is needed as well.

As far as milking - the Nigies can have awesome plump teats!
For best production 2x a day milking is going to give your best yield. The standards, even though many do 1x day milking it can be an issue with real heavy producers and there is more risk to them with mastitis. We have one that cannot go to a 24 hour fill - no way no how.... the Mini's do quite well on 1x day milking without losing much by way of production and really don't have issues with mastitis.

If a family goes through 2 gallons of milk a week but they also want to make cheese a standard breed is going to be too much milk. Our lamanchas give 1+gallon a day but average right at the 1 gallon mark... our Nubian is giving 1 1/2 gallons a day.
That is 7 gallons a week - 10 1/2 gallons. Most people cannot utilize it and depending on state laws they may or may not be able to sell it. We don't bootleg but many do in NC. 

1 gallon - 1  1/2 gallons to make 2-3 lbs of cheese; 10oz to make a batch of soap; + drinking or yogurt etc should be considered.

NOTHING worse than pitching milk!  Now, if you have feeder pigs that can utilize the extra milk and whey then the "extra" milk will be well put to use.

We utilize 3 gallons a day. But we aren't the "norm". When I get behind we send our milk over to our friends that are raising 3 feeder pigs. Yeah... we benefit from that one big time.


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2015)

Milk production aside how do you handle leading them bent over?  I think they are adorable and have been secretly considering getting one but with my bad back wouldn't it be a problem?


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2015)

Raising our 4 human children we went through a gallon a day with no problem!  They loved goat milk and I also used it to cook with.  We didn't have too much until we were milking 15!  Then we started feeding calves for the cattle auction.


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## Southern by choice (May 9, 2015)

I don't know what you mean by leading them. We open the gate they run to our milking area jump on the stand and that's it. Our goats walk on leads well and we do hooves on the stanchion.... big goats we do on the ground they are awful ... some better than others but several it takes 2 people to hold them. 

Wouldn't trade my big girls for NOTHIN! 
I honestly didn't think I'd ever have standard goats.

Started out with Nigies but we reduced and now only have our best 3. I love the personalities of our Lamanchas best and the Nubian and Alpine are great! The minis are a real joy.  
Only reason we still have any Nigies is my daughter (they are her goats and she loves them) I like them but after going to minis and standards well there just ain't no going back. 
Nigies are great little goats and are very enjoyable I think out of all our goats though they definitely are more on the snotty side. LOL I say that in an *endearing* way not a cutdown... they act like prima donnas!


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## OneFineAcre (May 9, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I don't know what you mean by leading them. We open the gate they run to our milking area jump on the stand and that's it. Our goats walk on leads well and we do hooves on the stanchion.... big goats we do on the ground they are awful ... some better than others but several it takes 2 people to hold them.
> 
> Wouldn't trade my big girls for NOTHIN!
> I honestly didn't think I'd ever have standard goats.
> ...



They have a reason to act like prima donnas 
They are the best and they know it


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## OneFineAcre (May 9, 2015)

And like the others said don't start you herd with auction animals
Even if people in your area have registered, show animals all of their animals are not going to be champions and you should be able to find some at a reasonable price


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## Goat Whisperer (May 9, 2015)

I agree with the others........ NEVER EVER buy from an auction! Bad idea all around!



Now with the nigi's......... @Ridgetop Their are soooooo many Nigi breeders that have worked on these dairy goats so they have long teats!  I am a nigi breeder and that is something I really look at! When the  doe in my avatar "Ruthie", freshened her teats were BEAUTIFUL for a FF! They are very plump and long and she had amazing flow! I cannot wait to see her freshen again. She isn't a "two finger milker". As a FF she peaked @ 1.5quarts..... Not bad IMO for a FF. I dried her off in January because I was very busy and life got in the way. She has decided to come back into milk and her teats look even better. I need to get some pics soon, she is a very nice girl 

Ruthie's 3/4 sister "Leah" freshened this spring, she too has long, plump, beautiful teats. Not as plump as Ruthie's but still really good.


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2015)

Goat Whisperer: I have only had large dairy goats.  Nubians and LaManchas mostly, a couple of Alpines and the Toggenbergs of The Terrible Milk LOL.  My children showed their goats and in open shows I helped them.  Leading a standard size goat is easier than a short one (we used to show the kids and lead them to the stanchion for toe trims, clippings, etc.) Ours were trained to leashes too, and were bottle raised.  I have led a string of 8 goats to the show ring while my children were leading others.  They led just fine on their tie chains.  short goats would have lef just fine too because the kids led just fine.  A tall goat is just easier for me to handle than one I have to bend over to handle.  That is if the goat is well behaved and trained.  An untrained standard size goat is horrible to try to lead around.  I justthink I would have to see what it was like to work with a tiny goat instead of one that I could stand up to handle.  Bending over a big goat to clip and milk is hard enough on the back.  I understand that you have special taller milking stanchions for NDs but also, it depends how much milk yoi need in your household.  1.5 quarts wouldn't cut it when we needed houseold milk for 6 people.  We had twin Nubian star milkers who averaged 10 lbs daily in their lactations (6 quarts)for 10 months.  We used all the milk.  I think NDs would be great goats for someone with small area who doesn't need a lot of milk, but I'm 65 and have had back surgery and don't think I could comfortably milk or care for a short ND.  I could be wrong and they might be just the thing for my husband and I now that our kids are grown.  I know some people like to milk Pygmies too and swear that their milk is better because of the richness, but I don't know why you would want to bother for the small yield.

I would like to try a Nigerian someday.  We sold our dairy herd about 12 years ago when Nigerians were just getting popular.  They were hard to milk at that time and were more a "designer breed" that a true milker, so I am probably prejudiced because of how they were back then.  How much bigger are they than Pygmy goats?


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## babsbag (May 10, 2015)

I just got my ND buckling today and it is all @Goat Whisperer fault.   I will select a few of my Alpines next year to keep kids from and most of my LMs, and breed them to standard sized bucks, the rest will be bred for minis and the kids will be sold. Hoping the market is better for minis than standards. We will see.

I have a couple of very petite LMs that will do good in a mini program so might do that too, haven't decided yet.


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## Southern by choice (May 10, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I just got my ND buckling today and it is all @Goat Whisperer fault.   I will select a few of my Alpines next year to keep kids from and most of my LMs, and breed them to standard sized bucks, the rest will be bred for minis and the kids will be sold. Hoping the market is better for minis than standards. We will see.
> 
> I have a couple of very petite LMs that will do good in a mini program so might do that too, haven't decided yet.



Yeah ... um we need to see how many will be allowed in the crate together and you can ship some of those mini's my way! 
We can test that out by that little chocolate doeling Lamancha you have right now... JUST SAYIN'!


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## Goat Whisperer (May 10, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> Goat Whisperer: I have only had large dairy goats.  Nubians and LaManchas mostly, a couple of Alpines and the Toggenbergs of The Terrible Milk LOL.  My children showed their goats and in open shows I helped them.  Leading a standard size goat is easier than a short one (we used to show the kids and lead them to the stanchion for toe trims, clippings, etc.) Ours were trained to leashes too, and were bottle raised.  I have led a string of 8 goats to the show ring while my children were leading others.  They led just fine on their tie chains.  short goats would have lef just fine too because the kids led just fine.  A tall goat is just easier for me to handle than one I have to bend over to handle.  That is if the goat is well behaved and trained.  An untrained standard size goat is horrible to try to lead around.  I justthink I would have to see what it was like to work with a tiny goat instead of one that I could stand up to handle.  Bending over a big goat to clip and milk is hard enough on the back.  I understand that you have special taller milking stanchions for NDs but also, it depends how much milk yoi need in your household.  1.5 quarts wouldn't cut it when we needed houseold milk for 6 people.  We had twin Nubian star milkers who averaged 10 lbs daily in their lactations (6 quarts)for 10 months.  We used all the milk.  I think NDs would be great goats for someone with small area who doesn't need a lot of milk, but I'm 65 and have had back surgery and don't think I could comfortably milk or care for a short ND.  I could be wrong and they might be just the thing for my husband and I now that our kids are grown.  I know some people like to milk Pygmies too and swear that their milk is better because of the richness, but I don't know why you would want to bother for the small yield.
> 
> I would like to try a Nigerian someday.  We sold our dairy herd about 12 years ago when Nigerians were just getting popular.  They were hard to milk at that time and were more a "designer breed" that a true milker, so I am probably prejudiced because of how they were back then.  How much bigger are they than Pygmy goats?


I do agree Nigi's are not for everyone. I milk large dairy goats and dwarfs. And yes, a nigi may not be able to produce for a large family, I have seen that as well. 

Like any breed of animal, all breeds of goats can have their advantages and disadvantages. The ND's may not be a good choice for you or for the OP. The main reason why I posted on this thread is when you commented on how Nigi's have tiny teats. Many many breeders have worked so hard on this. I see lots of nigi's that have great teats and can be hand milked easily. Mine included.


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## Ridgetop (May 10, 2015)

I'm happy that breeders are working tomake this little goat more milkable - if it is a true dairy breed it needs to have teats that can be milked.  When I first saw NDs it was about 12 or 15 years ago and they were a fad.  They were touted as being great little miniature milk goats but no one I knew ever actually could milk them because of the tiny teats!  Maybe elves?  LOL  Now that they are being bred to be able to be milked by normal sized people I can see that they would make a nice goat for people who don't want a huge amount of milk, or who are limited on space and feed.  Also nice starter goats for younger 4-H kids.  My kids were able to milk our standard goats, but then we never went to cows because our goats were giving us all we needed for our large family. 

I am never offended at being corrected by someone who has more facts.  I have never milked or owned NDs so I don't want to offend anyone who has the breed and loves them.


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## annabelle333 (May 10, 2015)

Great information here!  I love getting to know this community of goat lovers!  Thanks for sharing your knowledge so freely!


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## Ridgetop (May 10, 2015)

Yes, me too!  I am really enjoying meeting so many great people - thanks everyone for sharing all your info and good wishes with everyone.  It is like being in a caring family!


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## Southern by choice (May 10, 2015)

@babsbag 

These are the ones I want... just sayin they will both fit in the same crate.  Got plenty of milk to feed them.



 

I want HER the most!


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## goatgurl (May 10, 2015)

@annabelle333 the group has given you some good advice.  find a good breeder and work with them.  a good milker is an investment in the future and a member of your family.  congrats on getting your little piece of the world.. what part of Oklahoma are you in?  may know some folks you can contact.


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## Goat Whisperer (May 10, 2015)

Annnabelle, If you are still interested in the Nigi's www.dillsalittlegoatfarm.com would be a good breeder to contact. If they don't have what you are looking for they should be able to point you to another breeder  

Like others have said, buy QUALITY animals.


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## OneFineAcre (May 10, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Annnabelle, If you are still interested in the Nigi's www.dillsalittlegoatfarm.com would be a good breeder to contact. If they don't have what you are looking for they should be able to point you to another breeder
> 
> Like others have said, buy QUALITY animals.



You will probably need to tap into your home equity if you get a couple from Dills


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## Southern by choice (May 10, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> You will probably need to tap into your home equity if you get a couple from Dills



I am with you OFA!    

Check out where some show ill be in your region/state go to one if you can. You will find contacts. There are many farms that test and do Linear appraisals but don't show... look around get referrals you'll find a goat within your budget.


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## OneFineAcre (May 10, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I am with you OFA!
> 
> Check out where some show ill be in your region/state go to one if you can. You will find contacts. There are many farms that test and do Linear appraisals but don't show... look around get referrals you'll find a goat within your budget.


The thing about Dills is that since they have the reigning ADGA National Champ is that everything they have is selling for double what it normally would and those down at the bottom of the page that are selling for $400 are probably more than double what they are worth
I know some people that paid $700 for a kid from a farm that had a National Jr champ and a Sr Reserve
They brought her back to Rocky Mt the next year as a yearling and she finished dead last in all 3 rings
When she was in milk the next year they had a linear appraisal and she had the lowest score, lower than some they had paid $200 on Craigs List


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## annabelle333 (May 10, 2015)

I have contacted two local farms and will set up times to tour their facilities and get some information that I think will help.  What is a reasonable price for a doeling?  I have taken everyones advice and remembered that my grandad used to always say it costs the same to feed a good horse as a bad one...I think I was just excited to get the goats and wanted them right then!  We still are working on barn and fencing so thank goodness I have decided to wait to give them a proper home.  I can be a little spontaneous at times....


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## annabelle333 (May 10, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> @babsbag
> 
> These are the ones I want... just sayin they will both fit in the same crate.  Got plenty of milk to feed them.
> View attachment 9708
> ...


Yes!  I can see why!!!


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## OneFineAcre (May 10, 2015)

annabelle333 said:


> I have contacted two local farms and will set up times to tour their facilities and get some information that I think will help.  What is a reasonable price for a doeling?  I have taken everyones advice and remembered that my grandad used to always say it costs the same to feed a good horse as a bad one...I think I was just excited to get the goats and wanted them right then!  We still are working on barn and fencing so thank goodness I have decided to wait to give them a proper home.  I can be a little spontaneous at times....


That depends
$200 might be reasonable for one goat and $500 for another
We do show ours and we do not have large money making enterprise here
We keep ours longer than other people 
A couple of years ago I had a doe that had freshend once and was bred for a second time 
I decided she had no future in the show ring so I sold her for $250 and she was bred and I sold her daughter for $200
So a dam and daughter and the dam was bred for $450
Now they were my culls but she was a good milker she gave over a quart her first freshening was healthy and easy kidder never had an issue with parasites and the people were nice had a great place
But that's just me
The next year I actually gave them them the  bred does mother and kid she had just because she was one of my original goats and wanted her to go to a good home
But again that's Just me
I would think you should be able to get a good goat in the $300-$400 range at least you can here


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## Southern by choice (May 10, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> The thing about Dills is that since they have the reigning ADGA National Champ is that everything they have is selling for double what it normally would and those down at the bottom of the page that are selling for $400 are probably more than double what they are worth
> I know some people that paid $700 for a kid from a farm that had a National Jr champ and a Sr Reserve
> They brought her back to Rocky Mt the next year as a yearling and she finished dead last in all 3 rings
> When she was in milk the next year they had a linear appraisal and she had the lowest score, lower than some they had paid $200 on Craigs List



Wow!


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## OneFineAcre (May 10, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I am with you OFA!
> 
> Check out where some show ill be in your region/state go to one if you can. You will find contacts. There are many farms that test and do Linear appraisals but don't show... look around get referrals you'll find a goat within your budget.



I almost forgot
Happy Mothers Day


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## OneFineAcre (May 10, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Wow!



Even the best farms have animals that aren't so great
They just charge more for them


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## Southern by choice (May 10, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> I almost forgot
> Happy Mothers Day



Thank You.


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## OneFineAcre (May 10, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> I'm happy that breeders are working tomake this little goat more milkable - if it is a true dairy breed it needs to have teats that can be milked.  When I first saw NDs it was about 12 or 15 years ago and they were a fad.  They were touted as being great little miniature milk goats but no one I knew ever actually could milk them because of the tiny teats!  Maybe elves?  LOL  Now that they are being bred to be able to be milked by normal sized people I can see that they would make a nice goat for people who don't want a huge amount of milk, or who are limited on space and feed.  Also nice starter goats for younger 4-H kids.  My kids were able to milk our standard goats, but then we never went to cows because our goats were giving us all we needed for our large family.
> 
> I am never offended at being corrected by someone who has more facts.  I have never milked or owned NDs so I don't want to offend anyone who has the breed and loves them.



I raise Nigerians and I'm not offended by what you said about them
Why would I ?
You don't own them, you never have,
You don't have a clue what you are talking about and you admitted that
You seem pretty knowedgeable in general maybe you should focus on things you have some experience in.
And please don't discourage other people because of your bias.


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## annabelle333 (May 10, 2015)

Thanks!


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## Ridgetop (May 11, 2015)

Anabelle333:  Grandad was right!  Never buy or keep an animal that is less than the best you can get.  (Of course we all do but usually because they have grown old in our service and are family now.)

You don't have to go to the National Champs for good goats.  In fact, lots of people  have the same bloodlines as the National winners since National winners usually belong to large breeders who people buy from hoping or believing it is the only way to get a top notch animal.  Remember that out of their 100's of goats they only show about 10 or 20!  Go to open (adult owners) shows_ and_ 4-H shows.  _The trick is to go the day your breed is being judged and listen to the judges' comments so you know what he is talking about when placing the goats._ _I can't stress enough the important of looking at 4-H herds since a lot of those goats are competitive with adult owned herds._  A lot of the 4-H members buy from good herds and most adults give them a good deal on decent goats.  Then the 4-Hers keep coming back the these good breeders for stud service because their parents won't let them keep a stinky buck.  This means that over the 9 years they are in 4-H their goats are eventually very good.  People might not realize how good because most 4-Hers only show in 4-H youth shows.  Ask what bloodlines their goats are from or ask the parents to see the pedigrees.  You will have to look a few generations back for the original herd names.  Most people think of 4-H herds as being children's pets, but a lot of those herds are as good or better than adult owned herds.

If you can find a 4-H herd that is winning, where the kid is getting near graduation and not planning on keeping his/her herd you might stumble into a real bargain.  My son, Carl, had a gorgeous herd of LaManchas (mostlyLucky Star and Quixote lines) and was winning in open shows against adult breeders.  Kids can only show open in fairs when they are not allowed to show in youth because they don't live in the area.  When he sold, he sold for less than half the price the goats would have gone for had they been sold by adult herd owners.  They all went to Shirley Benson who had been the Shadow Hills herd.  She had been out of goats for a while and went back into goats with his herd as her foundation.  She is in Ridgetop, CA.   Guess what, she also has Nigerians now too!


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## Ridgetop (May 11, 2015)

One fine acre: sorry I upset you about your Nigerians


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## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> One fine acre: sorry I upset you about your Nigerians



But, I wasn't offended.
OK, maybe I was a little offended. 

I'll tell you what I think.  I believe you said you have been out of dairy goats for 12 or so year?  That is about the time that ADGA started the Nigerian Dwarf herd book and started including the breed in ADGA sanctioned shows.

At that time there was a lot of bias against Nigerians from the standard goat breeders, a lot of the things that you said.
But, over the last few years that has changed a lot.

Oh, don't get me wrong, we hear some good natured kidding from our standard goat friends about our little goats and their little teats.
But, there is no question about the fact that Nigerian Dwarf milk is the highest in butter fat.  And, there is no question about the fact that while they do not produce the quantity of milk of the standards, they do have the most efficient feed conversion ratio.  How can they not be a true Dairy goat when in many ways they are superior to the standards?

But most really appreciate what the interest in Nigerians has done for the organization and for the sanctioned shows.  Around here a lot of the shows were struggling financially.  When we first started showing, our club the NC Dairy Goat Breeders Association was literally one year away from not being able to have a show because it was losing money.  When we joined there were two other Nigerian Breeders and then us. And then our herd grew and several other Nigerian breeders started showing, and now our spring show is a big success financially.  Get this,  out of 300 or so goats that we will have, 100 of them will be Nigerians.  We've added a 3rd ring and a sanctioned 24 hour milk test.

But, the Nigerian Dwarf breed has also benefited by being part of the ADGA.  More than a few standard goat breeders started breeding Nigerians and brought years of experience and they have really helped to improve the breed.  And, there is still room for more improvement

I'm going to include a picture of one of my favorite Nigerian Dwarf does.  Her name is
SG ARMCH Flat Rocks Here For The Party.  She is owned by Janet Karohl of Dragon Fly Farms in Harvard, MA. (Janet has this picture on Wikipedia and allows it's use with proper credit)  I was trying to buy a buck from her, but ended up with one of her grandsons.

Now, I dare you to tell me she isn't a "true" dairy goat.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 11, 2015)

She is beeeee-you-teeeee-ful!


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## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2015)

frustratedearthmother said:


> She is beeeee-you-teeeee-ful!



Isn't she though 
There was a waiting list to pay $1200 for a buckling from her.


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## Pearce Pastures (May 11, 2015)




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## annabelle333 (May 11, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> Anabelle333:  Grandad was right!  Never buy or keep an animal that is less than the best you can get.  (Of course we all do but usually because they have grown old in our service and are family now.)
> 
> You don't have to go to the National Champs for good goats.  In fact, lots of people  have the same bloodlines as the National winners since National winners usually belong to large breeders who people buy from hoping or believing it is the only way to get a top notch animal.  Remember that out of their 100's of goats they only show about 10 or 20!  Go to open (adult owners) shows_ and_ 4-H shows.  _The trick is to go the day your breed is being judged and listen to the judges' comments so you know what he is talking about when placing the goats._ _I can't stress enough the important of looking at 4-H herds since a lot of those goats are competitive with adult owned herds._  A lot of the 4-H members buy from good herds and most adults give them a good deal on decent goats.  Then the 4-Hers keep coming back the these good breeders for stud service because their parents won't let them keep a stinky buck.  This means that over the 9 years they are in 4-H their goats are eventually very good.  People might not realize how good because most 4-Hers only show in 4-H youth shows.  Ask what bloodlines their goats are from or ask the parents to see the pedigrees.  You will have to look a few generations back for the original herd names.  Most people think of 4-H herds as being children's pets, but a lot of those herds are as good or better than adult owned herds.
> 
> If you can find a 4-H herd that is winning, where the kid is getting near graduation and not planning on keeping his/her herd you might stumble into a real bargain.  My son, Carl, had a gorgeous herd of LaManchas (mostlyLucky Star and Quixote lines) and was winning in open shows against adult breeders.  Kids can only show open in fairs when they are not allowed to show in youth because they don't live in the area.  When he sold, he sold for less than half the price the goats would have gone for had they been sold by adult herd owners.  They all went to Shirley Benson who had been the Shadow Hills herd.  She had been out of goats for a while and went back into goats with his herd as her foundation.  She is in Ridgetop, CA.   Guess what, she also has Nigerians now too!



I will definitely check out my local 4-H- this is a great idea!  I will also start going to open shows in the area- so much research to do!  I am having fun trying to absorb it all.  Thanks for your advice.


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## Ridgetop (May 12, 2015)

Onefineacre:  She is lovely.  If I didn;t know she was not a full size dairy goat, I couldn't tell from the picture.  She is also my favorite LaMancha color.

Before you get mad at me again, let me explain.  We had dairy goats for over 20 years, and I was the dairy goat project leader for 18 years.  Our goats were on milk test with as couple star milkers, we drew blood for CAE testing, did AI, kept semen and collected our bucks, vaccinated, and for the last 10 years had to do our own vet stuff because there were no animal vets in our area who would touch farm stock.  I attended as many seminars as I could to keep up on all advances. 

Yes, we sold out about the time ND's were coming in.  My youngest boys went off to college and we couldn;t keep up with the work load of 20 milkers, 6 bucks and 60 doe kids and dry yearlings.  (That count does not include about 20 Boers which we continued to keep for another 5 years.)  At that time Nigerians were considered a fad.  They had a milk yield similar to a Pygmy, and were difficult to milk because of tiny teats.  Like any fad they were also _very very_ expensive.  Since I wanted lots of milk, and was milking on a schedule where I didn't have time to "coax" milk out I was not seeing them as true dairy animals.  Now many people (you included) are telling me that ND breeders have been improving the breed over the years, They have improved yield, teat and udder structure for ease of milking, and one would assume from the picture you posted, overall type as well.  The original NDs  I saw 12 years ago certainly didn't look like the doe in that picture.  I remember them being stockier and more like Pygmies in body type, certainly not the elegant dairy doe in the picture . 

That being said, perhaps you will understand why I am asking about them now.  If you were having to milk to get enough milk for 6 people and some for cooking, you might understand why I would rather milk 2 goats than 4.  However, I am no longer raising 4 ravenous active children and can understand why you might enjoy having a smaller goat that will give less milk.  All goat people know you _cannot keep just one_ dairy goat since they need company.  If you keep 2 heavy yielding standard goats you have so much milk that you may have to dump it unless you keep chickens, pigs or make cheese (all of which is a lot more work just for the privilege of drinking fresh goat milk!).  If you keep 2 Nigerians that produce adequately (remember our goats were on test so _my_ idea of adequate yield is higher than most people) you will not have to deal with too much milk, but will have the pleasure of keeping 2 milkers and the even greater pleasure of a lower feed bill. 

So, Onefineacre, have I got it right now?

What is the normal price stretch for a good (not a national champ) Nigerian?  By that I mean, one that is from a barn that tests for CAE, CL, keeps milk records, etc.  The sort of breeder you want to buy from if you want a nice starter goat for milk without problems.  Are the prices comparable or are they more because people still look at them as a fancy breed? How tall exactly are Nigerians?  Nubians average about 30+" while the other breeds are smaller down to Toggs.

My daughter who grew up showing and milking her Nubians finally said she is considering getting her children a pet.  She has horse property, but not a lot of space so a Nigerian might be ok.  I need to apologize in advance probably when I say she won't want a Pygmy since we never liked them much.  You tend to like what you grew up with and dairy type is what she knows.  Her children are old enough to care for a goat (they are 8, 5, and 2), but on the small side so a smaller goat would be nice.


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## OneFineAcre (May 12, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> Onefineacre:  She is lovely.  If I didn;t know she was not a full size dairy goat, I couldn't tell from the picture.  She is also my favorite LaMancha color.
> 
> Before you get mad at me again, let me explain.  We had dairy goats for over 20 years, and I was the dairy goat project leader for 18 years.  Our goats were on milk test with as couple star milkers, we drew blood for CAE testing, did AI, kept semen and collected our bucks, vaccinated, and for the last 10 years had to do our own vet stuff because there were no animal vets in our area who would touch farm stock.  I attended as many seminars as I could to keep up on all advances.
> 
> ...



The height standard in ADGA is that does cannot be over 22 1/2" tall and bucks 23 1/2 tall.  I was told by a linear appraiser at a clinic that does around 21" to 21 1/2"  score highest on linear appraisal

I'm not sure what the market is like in CA, but here you can get them from $200-$500.  We don't do DHIR testing but we keep records  and are participating in a sanctioned 24 hour test.   If someone here is selling for $200 they probably are not going to be doing much record keeping.
But, I paid $200 for one of my first goats and she is a real nice goat.  Maybe I just got lucky.

I know you mentioned leading them.  Thought you might get a kick out of these pictures.
My wife is kind of tall.  Zamia was Nigerian Best of Breed at North Carolina State Fair this is when she went out for best in show.  She does look tiny compared to the others in the picture.

So, which one do you think won best in show?  I'll give you a hint.  It wasn't the small one.


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## Ridgetop (May 14, 2015)

Very nice photos.  How old is your daughter? Why didn't she take her in for the Best in Show judging?  The photos give a better size description.  Thank you.


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## OneFineAcre (May 14, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> Very nice photos.  How old is your daughter? Why didn't she take her in for the Best in Show judging?  The photos give a better size description.  Thank you.


My daughter is 11.  She took Zamia out for best in show in the youth show on Saturday.  Youth Showmanship is Friday night. Youth show runs all day long on Saturday, and then they start the open show with Jr's on Saturday night. Come Sunday Rachel is burned out on showing goats. LOL
By the way in the open show, the Nubian was picked best in show, the Sannen best udder. I believe in the youth show it was the Alpine.


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