# It's been a tough year,  could use some feedback



## raeleigh26 (Dec 22, 2015)

Hi,  I've only just joined, and this is both a query and a mild vent post.  We're in north east oklahoma, we've got 5 horses (2 are boarded,not ours) 2 labs, 3 cats, rabbits, chickens, ducks, and cattle. This year, both of my best breeding new Zealand does have eaten 3 litters, both were due yesterday and nested, but nothing, I've lost over 40 young chickens that I hatched out to coryza, I'll be culling the rest of the flock in spring after collecting enough eggs to hatch out to replace them, which is painful because I've had some of them for years, they're pets.   and my dexter heifer just had her first calf stillborn. We bought a dairy Angus cross 2 day old calf to put on her and she loved him at first, but is now bullying him. So I'm supervising nursing 3 times a day.
I've heard contradicting opionions about milking, some insist you milk dry twice a day, others insist milking dry is bad.... the calf (3 days with surrogate momma) is still bright eyed and playful, but I'm a little worried he may not be getting enough. Any thoughts on this?
Maggie is 3 years old, very selfish with her feed and hay, but the calf has nibbled a bit of hay, and I'm also thinking of switching her from 20%feed back to the tubs she was on before.
I've found nothing at all on the benefit or problems with a nursing calf eating from a feed tub, again, any thoughts? He does lick the mineral block quite a bit. I have no doubt he'd have his nose in a molasses tub.thank you in advance!


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## Latestarter (Dec 22, 2015)

First, Greetings from the front range in Colorado  ! Sorry you've had to deal with so much loss. No problem venting here as a general rule, we've all done it and we all need to on occasion. Glad you decided to join us and hope you'll share some pics and such once you're comfortable. There are lots of great folks here who willingly help others when they ask.

I can't really help you on your cattle questions, but there are those here that can. Normally, you'll get better responses if you post in a thread dealing with your issue. There is a section with threads purely dedicated to cattle. But right off the top of my head, a couple of folks who might be able to help would be @WildRoseBeef , @jhm47 , @greybeard , @Bossroo 

I hope everything works out for the little one.


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## jhm47 (Dec 22, 2015)

I have always said that a slightly hungry calf is a healthy calf, so if he's still "bright eyed and playful" I'd quit worrying about him getting enough.  Calves often nibble on hay and other things.  Most likely they are just exploring.  I also wouldn't worry about him overeating on mineral/molasses/hay.  The cow will eventually accept the calf.  Might take a couple more days.  I'd give her some of her favorite feed while the calf is sucking.  Good luck!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2015)

Sorry for your rough year.
I know nothing about cattle or rabbits.
I do have a large poultry farm... Coryza is bird to bird transmission as you know but it is more prevalent where there are other diseases. MG (Mycoplasma Gallisepticum) is a real biggy.

If you plan on collecting eggs you really may want to think seriously about that before doing so. Birds with Coryza often become carriers, no real info on whether coryza is vertically transmitted (through egg) but by doing Tylan dip process you can eliminate MG. MG is often found in flocks with Coryza.

Were the birds necropsied for results or is Coryza a guess? 

If it were me I would not gather and hatch from this group. I would eradicate all birds, clean disinfect, allow land to rest and restart with healthy stock in spring.

Heat is your best source when allowing to rest. Most poultry diseases can survive extreme frigid temperatures. Bleach is ineffective once it hits organic matter- so you would need to clean everything before bleach. Vinegar is also ineffective.


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## raeleigh26 (Dec 22, 2015)

Coryza is a best guess.  My neighbors got different birds from several different farms and lost a lot of theirs also.  We'll both have to cull.  From what I've read,  it's not passed through the eggs and hatched chicks should be fine as long as the grounds have been sanitized and rested.  Birds were snotty,  foul smelling discharge from nasal passages,  swollen eyes,  sneezing and coughing.  Sulmet and tetracycline cleared it up in the older birds.  I've been told that once symptoms pass and they're no longer on meds that (given a withal period, I've waited 3 weeks) the meat and eggs are safe for consumption.
People have mentioned that I should've posted my original thread in a specific topic, I thought I did. .... related to calves.


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## Latestarter (Dec 22, 2015)

SO Sorry @raeleigh26  As I was answering you, I looked up (to the browser location vice the actual site location) and it simply said /threads/... not WHICH thread, so I assumed (incorrectly) that it was posted in the introduction area. 

You done good and right! My bust


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## Goatgirl47 (Dec 22, 2015)

Welcome to BYH! 

I'm sorry about the chickens, and that your calf was stillborn.  One of our cows last year had a stillborn calf as well. We got a foster calf for her, but then found out that she had no milk, so we had to butcher her.

I agree with @jhm47 about your new foster calf. I hope all goes well!


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## raeleigh26 (Dec 22, 2015)

Thank you all for your replies,  I'm no stranger to farm life (read:  reality. ..lol) it happens,  but this all wad within the last 3 months.  Sometimes the blows are non stop.  
Looking forward to many more reads and hopefully, happier posts!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2015)

You posted in the right section... you were really talking about calves...  I just thought I'd mention the poultry thing since you mentioned it. My thought was more about the MG as it is in 80+% of all flocks and is often found with other respiratory issues. Carrier birds, asymptomatic but it is generally found when birds are diagnosed with other respiratory issues.

So many of us here can understand the "what the heck is happening" where there seems to be a run of everything is going wrong. It sure can be discouraging.  Since you are no stranger to farm life you know it will pass- just sure stinks going through. 

Glad you joined the forum!  It is a great place to , share  , , vent   , give and get info.
Some wonderful people on the rabbit forums too!
Lots of good folks here.


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## goatgurl (Dec 22, 2015)

welcome to the forum raeleigh26 from your neighbor down the hill.  like southernbychoice said you've come to a good place to share and get help if you need it and give help if you can.   I'm so sorry about your losses but because you are a farm girl you know that this too shall pass, its just hard to endure till it does.


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## WildRoseBeef (Dec 23, 2015)

If the calf is all spunk, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, so to speak, then there's nothing to worry about. He's getting enough, if he wasn't he'd certainly let you know. 

Heifers are just plain weird with a calf, and a real pain in the rear. They can act like they accept a calf in one moment and the next act like the calf isn't theirs. Since this is a surrogate momma it may take a little more time but if the calf is persistent and always trying to suckle the heifer, then eventually Maggie will submit and let him become hers. It just may take a few extra days. Sometimes you just gotta let them figure things out by themselves. 

I've heard too that milking them dry is bad because of increased incidence of mastitis, and it's actually quite right. Most of the times when calves suckle they don't take all the milk out of the udder, just what they want out of a couple quarters or three before going off to sleep or play. And a calf will nurse a lot more than twice or thrice a day, so in between the times you are supervising the nursing I wouldn't doubt the calf has been sneaking in a few suckles now and again. She can try to bully him, but he can continue to be persistent. 

And, at that age, the calf would be doing a lot of experimenting and taste-testing what his surrogate mom is eating. So even though she's being a hog at the feeder he's learning a lot from her, and will continue to do so.


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## WildRoseBeef (Dec 26, 2015)

How's the new momma heifer and calf doing?


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## raeleigh26 (Dec 31, 2015)

Well,  the calf is now 2 weeks old,  and Maggie still isn't letting him nurse at will,  still having to tie, feed, and supervise.  She still kicks a lot,  even though she'll lick him and call to him and follow him. .. as long as he doesn't want to nurse. .. oh well.  But this brings up questions about how to manage him from here on out . 

We've decided that at 2 months he'll be steered, vaccinated,  dehorned, and tagged,  and I intend to take him to the sale at 6 months.  Hopefully he'll be at least 500 lbs at that time,  so my question is,  how do I ensure he will be at least 500 lbs at 6 months?  He's out of an Angus sire and a mixed dairy cow (holstein Angus and some jersey) is my timing off?should I wait 8 months? Given that he's on a dexter cow, and I'd hoped to have some of her milk for us,  when should I wean him? He'll be bigger than her by 4 months I'd guess.  But no problems nursing so far.  He's eating hay well but no interest in creep feed yet,  I'll be putting a feed tub out today or tomorrow, the way he licks the mineral block I have no doubt he'll like the molasses tub.


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## greybeard (Dec 31, 2015)

You should try for whatever weights  are selling best in your area. In mine, 4 weights are bringing higher prices than 5 and 6 weights.


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## jhm47 (Jan 1, 2016)

One thing for certain---if he needs dehorning (and I strongly advise that you do it), he's definitely NOT sired by a purebred Angus bull.  All Angus are homozygous polled, and the polled gene is dominant.


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## raeleigh26 (Jan 2, 2016)

jhm47 said:


> One thing for certain---if he needs dehorning (and I strongly advise that you do it), he's definitely NOT sired by a purebred Angus bull.  All Angus are homozygous polled, and the polled gene is dominant.


The sire is black and polled, I've no doubt he's also crossed with some dairy, But it didn't show.  I was surprised to feel little buds on the calfs head,  but I'm not worried about it.   All of the cows and the sire were on site and I was able to interact with them, all but one cow was polled,(mostly jersey, she was dehorned) and all but that one were black or dark brown with some white.  The mixed breeding wasn't hidden or lied about,  and his breeding isn't an issue.  They're all jersey, holstein, and Angus crossed.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jan 2, 2016)

Physically polled, yes, but that doesn't mean the sire will carry the horned gene. Now I've no doubt that the producer you bough from was honest, but the telling is what you said about the bull's genetic history: That you have no doubt that the big guy has some dairy blood somewhere in the wood pile. And since, I believe, all dairy breeds are horned (especially the ones you mentioned, Jersey and Holstein, and they're still "horned" even if dehorned/disbudded as young calves), he's doing to be what is known as heterozygous polled, or express the polled (dominant) gene as his physical characteristics, but his genetics would prove that he also has the (recessive; not showing physically) horned gene. 

So I'm actually not surprised to hear of the buds the calf is showing. Here's a bit of genetic sciencey stuff for you (and I hope it makes some sense; you probably already know this so this may be more review than anything, so my apologies in advance if I seem a little too forth-right with this): 

Dam is horned (homozygous; can't have heterozygous horned because that gene is always recessive to the polled [dominant] gene) denoted by hh, and Sire is heterozygous polled, denoted by Hh. Cross these two and you get a 50% chance of polled (hh) and 50% chance of horned (Hh) per the punnett square: 

 x   H     h
h   Hh   hh
h   Hh   hh

So the feller you bought the calf off of had a 50-50 chance of getting a polled or horned, take your pick, calf. 

You may not worry now, but when those buds turn into horns and those horns turn into potentially dangerous weapons, then it's well past time to be concerned. So, I'm with JHM to get those buds taken off ASAP. The sooner it's done, the less stress it'll be on the calf.


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## raeleigh26 (Jan 4, 2016)

Calf is destined for the sale barn,  he will be steered, dehorned,  vaccinated and tagged next month.  Both my dexters are dehorned,  after Maggie accidently got my cheek flipping her head at a fly. ... that was before her horns were long or sharp. ... my brother had a Billy goat run him through his thigh when we were kids ... I don't do horns. .. but,  all 3 if my vehicles broke down in 2 days,  so it may be a moot point : I'm currently advertising my cattle to pay the bills.


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## Latestarter (Jan 4, 2016)

sorry  Sometimes life sucks. Hope things get better for you.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jan 4, 2016)

Darn it raeleigh I'm really sorry to hear that. Hopefully you can start up again sometime in the future.


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## raeleigh26 (Jan 5, 2016)

It's easier to look back and say, "we've always made it."  than to look forward and know you will. ... 
I've got no worries,  we've always ended up with exactly what we need exactly when we needed it.  My mom says it's like magic,  I just tell her that God will provide,  He always has.  So far,  I've gotten no bites on any of my cattle, but somehow,  the bills were paid this week,  everyone has feed and hay,  we've got eggs,  meat, and milk,  and I even have yeast to make bread.  I'm gonna make myself another latte and chill with my kitty on the couch and thank God that I have the good sense to know when to be patient.


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