# When to trade out your Ram?



## kuntrygirl

Can someone explain to me the *do's* and *don'ts* of inbreeding?  When do you intervene and *not* allow the Ram to breed with closely related female sheep (mother, sister, daughter)?  How long do you all keep your ram and allow him to breed with his mother, sister, daughter, etc?  When should I trade my ram and get a another *non-related* Ram?

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## aggieterpkatie

If you're breeding for terminal lambs, then sometimes close breeding might not be a big issue.  Sometimes you may have issues you don't even want in terminal lambs, like parrot mouth, slow growth rate, etc.  

Most breeders do not want to inbreed at all, so they keep a few different rams and sell/buy new ones when they have too many related daughters.  

If you're trying to get specific results, you can sometimes breed closely to get those results, but just remember if the good traits are multiplied, then so are the bad ones.  

I'd go ahead and get new rams in when you have too many related ewes to breed back to the ram.  Or just get a second ram and use him for the other ram's daughters.


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## patandchickens

To clarify, "terminal lambs" means "you are not going to breed them and don't expect anyone else will", i.e. generally "ends up at the auction or in your freezer".

Pat


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## kuntrygirl

Thanks for the information.  I appreciate that.  To give you a little history about my reasons for having sheep.... I started off as just having them as pets years ago and slowly progressed to selling my sheep and I have also butchered a ram before........So, my goal at this point is to sell my sheep and to butcher a ram yearly or as needed when I have too many.  I hope that I don't offend anyone because of me butchering my animals for food for my family.  Sorry if I do. 

So with that said........this is what I decided to do and the reason why.

My 3 ewes delivered a total of 4 lambs this year (2011). The ram in question is the father to all of the lambs. They delivered on Jan 1, 2011 (single birth male) Jan 3, 2011 (single birth male) and Jan 24, 2011 (twins- male & female). So, I have more than enough males (new borns) for future breeding. The ram in question was the only male before now. So, my Ram will be going to the butcher today. 

I thought about trading him but I don't need another Ram.  I have 3 males (new borns) right now.  So, this ram that will be going to the butcher will provide food for me and my family (small family) for another year as did the last ram that I butchered.  We had meat for 10 months.  I always cry when one has to go but I have no choice.  

Do you all think this is a wise decision?  Any comments?


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## aggieterpkatie

kuntrygirl said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information.  I appreciate that.  To give you a little history about my reasons for having sheep.... I started off as just having them as pets years ago and slowly progressed to selling my sheep and I have also butchered a ram before........So, my goal at this point is to sell my sheep and to butcher a ram yearly or as needed when I have too many.  I hope that I don't offend anyone because of me butchering my animals for food for my family.  Sorry if I do.
> 
> So with that said........this is what I decided to do and the reason why.
> 
> My 3 ewes delivered a total of 4 lambs this year (2011). The ram in question is the father to all of the lambs. They delivered on Jan 1, 2011 (single birth male) Jan 3, 2011 (single birth male) and Jan 24, 2011 (twins- male & female). So, I have more than enough males (new borns) for future breeding. The ram in question was the only male before now. So, my Ram will be going to the butcher today.
> 
> I thought about trading him but I don't need another Ram.  I have 3 males (new borns) right now.  So, this ram that will be going to the butcher will provide food for me and my family (small family) for another year as did the last ram that I butchered.  We had meat for 10 months.  I always cry when one has to go but I have no choice.
> 
> Do you all think this is a wise decision?  Any comments?


First off, nobody will get offended that you're raising your own meat!  We think it's great!  

Here's my opinion, and you can take it or leave it.    Since the ram lambs born this year will be related to at least 2 of your ewes (his mom and the twin ewe lamb), I would not use one of them for breeding.  If you plan on breeding your ewe lamb this fall I would sell or trade one of your ram lambs for a new, unrelated ram.  If you plan on waiting until next year for your ewe lamb to be bred as a yearling, I would keep your ram and use him again this fall.  It's easiest to get unrelated rams than it is to keep a ram and not be able to use him on ALL your ewes.  

You've got enough rams to keep one for meat and sell the rest (or put them all in the freezer if you wanted).  

Just some other ideas for you to ponder.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

G'day KG,I assume you are 'breeding 'meat sheep, is the breed commonly kept in your area(so you can acquire new blood lines easily)?........Seeing as you only got 'one ewe' lamb it would be my choice to join him again to the 3 ewes,hoping for some more ewe lambs next time..............Did he produce lambs true to type?.........I would 'cut or band 'the 3 ram lambs from this years drop,grow them out so you can access his progeny.......How old are the mothers?...Are they a good example of the breed?.............Did they lamb easily and what is there milk supply like?.............In your first post you inquired about 'close 'joining,it has been our experience that as long as the ewe and ram are not close already(did you purchase the flock from the one breeder?)....If not you can breed father to daughter  if you wish to "fix" certain characteristic's,but the resulting  daughter's should be joined to another 'blood line 'whose 'gene's' you wish to bring into your flock...........The key to breeding is for each generation to be better than the preceding one..........This of course assumes that you are sticking to 'one 'breed and not x-breedig for a composite result........................Hope the above has been of some value,I would discuss your options with a farmer nearby whose opinion you 'respect

                     .......................T.O.R.........................


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## kuntrygirl

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> kuntrygirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the information.  I appreciate that.  To give you a little history about my reasons for having sheep.... I started off as just having them as pets years ago and slowly progressed to selling my sheep and I have also butchered a ram before........So, my goal at this point is to sell my sheep and to butcher a ram yearly or as needed when I have too many.  I hope that I don't offend anyone because of me butchering my animals for food for my family.  Sorry if I do.
> 
> So with that said........this is what I decided to do and the reason why.
> 
> My 3 ewes delivered a total of 4 lambs this year (2011). The ram in question is the father to all of the lambs. They delivered on Jan 1, 2011 (single birth male) Jan 3, 2011 (single birth male) and Jan 24, 2011 (twins- male & female). So, I have more than enough males (new borns) for future breeding. The ram in question was the only male before now. So, my Ram will be going to the butcher today.
> 
> I thought about trading him but I don't need another Ram.  I have 3 males (new borns) right now.  So, this ram that will be going to the butcher will provide food for me and my family (small family) for another year as did the last ram that I butchered.  We had meat for 10 months.  I always cry when one has to go but I have no choice.
> 
> Do you all think this is a wise decision?  Any comments?
> 
> 
> 
> First off, nobody will get offended that you're raising your own meat!  We think it's great!
> 
> Here's my opinion, and you can take it or leave it.    Since the ram lambs born this year will be related to at least 2 of your ewes (his mom and the twin ewe lamb), I would not use one of them for breeding.  If you plan on breeding your ewe lamb this fall I would sell or trade one of your ram lambs for a new, unrelated ram.  If you plan on waiting until next year for your ewe lamb to be bred as a yearling, I would keep your ram and use him again this fall.  It's easiest to get unrelated rams than it is to keep a ram and not be able to use him on ALL your ewes.
> 
> You've got enough rams to keep one for meat and sell the rest (or put them all in the freezer if you wanted).
> 
> Just some other ideas for you to ponder.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for your opinion.  You're right.  More good ideas to ponder.


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## barredcountrycoop

I am in the same situation kuntrygirl. i originally bought 1 ram and 2 ewes. i now have 2 additional rams both born of my ram and two of my ewes and two additional ewes. since i bought the original ram i do not have an exact age for him, he's probably not but three or four but i don't want to keep him too long and in fact have some one that wants him now. i only intend to keep 1 ram and four ewes. my 8 month old ram is beautiful, and i want to keep him, however one of the ewes is his mother. I've been told it wasn't a big problem although i really don't want to breed him with his mother, i am looking to see if i can trade his mother for another unrelated ewe to avoid any problems.


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## kuntrygirl

barredcountrycoop said:
			
		

> I am in the same situation kuntrygirl. i originally bought 1 ram and 2 ewes. i now have 2 additional rams both born of my ram and two of my ewes and two additional ewes. since i bought the original ram i do not have an exact age for him, he's probably not but three or four but i don't want to keep him too long and in fact have some one that wants him now. i only intend to keep 1 ram and four ewes. my 8 month old ram is beautiful, and i want to keep him, however one of the ewes is his mother. I've been told it wasn't a big problem although i really don't want to breed him with his mother, i am looking to see if i can trade his mother for another unrelated ewe to avoid any problems.


Hey there!  Glad to see that you are from Louisiana.  What city?  Sorry to hear that you are in the same situation with me.  Unfortunately, I processed my adult ram this weekend.  He is in the freezer now.  I brought home 74lbs of meat.

The only other problem is that I now have 3 ram lambs and 1 ewe lamb and I will only be able to keep 1 ram lamb. I will have to either sell the other 2 ram lambs when they are old enough or process them as well.  It's a difficult decision to make but I know that it has to be done.  That will be too many rams with the ewes and too closely related.  I REALLY want to get rid of all of the ram lambs and get an unrelated Ram (if I can find a quality ram).  

I see that your signature says that you have Blackbelly Barbado.  Do you sell any of your males?  


Keep us informed on what you decide to do.

Glad to see another Louisiana friend on this site.


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## barredcountrycoop

I would certainly sell one. I have a beautiful 4 year old ram that someone has already asked about buying. I also have a four month old that is looking good. I will try to get a pic of him and download for you to see. My blackbellies are Texas Barbados Blackbelly. I will try to get pics of them online for you to look at. If you are interested I am quite sure we can work out a deal that would be satisfactory. We are not trying to make a living on them, we keep them for pleasure, what we sell pays for some of the feed. Haven't processed any to the freezer yet, but will. I love lamb chops and actually anxious to taste blackbelly. I understand it is quite tastey. HOwever if you have need of a ram I would much prefer to send him to you then eat him ,lol. I'll try to get you pics of him , mom and dad.


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## kuntrygirl

barredcountrycoop said:
			
		

> I would certainly sell one. I have a beautiful 4 year old ram that someone has already asked about buying. I also have a four month old that is looking good. I will try to get a pic of him and download for you to see. My blackbellies are Texas Barbados Blackbelly. I will try to get pics of them online for you to look at. If you are interested I am quite sure we can work out a deal that would be satisfactory. We are not trying to make a living on them, we keep them for pleasure, what we sell pays for some of the feed. Haven't processed any to the freezer yet, but will. I love lamb chops and actually anxious to taste blackbelly. I understand it is quite tastey. HOwever if you have need of a ram I would much prefer to send him to you then eat him ,lol. I'll try to get you pics of him , mom and dad.


Oh great.  I can't wait to see the pics.  And yes, I am looking for a NON-RELATED ram to keep with my ewes.  I would love to speak with you about purchasing a ram from you.  We can PM each other back and forth with more details.  Thanks a bunch!


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## barredcountrycoop

be glad to. by the way what breed of chickens do you breed? I'm looking to add some buff orps, rhode island reds and a couple of americanas. ice giving me the day off tomorrow may start on the new coop. I will also get you a better pic of the young ram and his dad for you to see.


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## boykin2010

This was helpful info to me too.  I just got started in sheep and i have 5 pregnant adult ewes and one unrelated purebred katahdin ram lamb. One of the 5 just had a baby girl and i am anxiously waiting on the others to deliver. All the ewes are mostly katahdin and they are all bred to a barbado male.  The baby i had looks similiar to the one you have as your picture kuntrygirl. Except for the white maybe.  

I am glad i went ahead and bought the unrelated ram lamb. He is from excellent genetics and has GORGEUS markings.  I dont think i would ever be able to butcher him as we have bonded since i have been bottlefeeding him. But i do realize someday in the future his sons are going to need to be butchered but i would never be able to butcher my ram lamb i just got. I may castrate him after he has bred to keep from inbreeding. Then get another unrelated lamb and start over.

Good luck in finding your new unrelated ram lamb.  
I would also love to see pics of your new lambs you have kuntrygirl


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## kuntrygirl

boykin2010 said:
			
		

> I would also love to see pics of your new lambs you have kuntrygirl


*
These are all of the new babies.*


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## barredcountrycoop

beautiful lambs kuntrygirl. had two more sets of twins over the weekend. it's chaos in the pen, got babies running everywhere and moms trying to keep up with them. Really would like to sell that young ram now, I need the room ! lol


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## Dean.Collins

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I'd go ahead and get new rams in when you have too many related ewes to breed back to the ram.  Or just get a second ram and use him for the other ram's daughters.


But how do you even track.../manage this?? this is the part i'm having difficulties understanding. Fine if you have a flock or 30-40 ewes and 1 ram but what do you do when carrying 50 rams and 1500 ewes?

How do you even pen them up for mating season so you can segment them out with the ram/ewe combinations that you want.

Do you really setup 50 small paddocks for each ram?


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## BrownSheep

Most operations I know with that many sheep don't give a darn who gets bred to who they through the rams out with the flocks and statistically it's pretty unlikely you'll have much inbreeding going on.


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## SheepGirl

I would do 10ish different paddocks or pens, so that way there are five rams in each pen. Then you can use a marking harness or marking paint, each a different color for the different rams in each pen, and that way you know which ram bred which ewe and when. You will have to change the colors of the five rams every 17 days or so.

But with 50 different rams and 1500 different ewes, I think the chance of inbreeding is very slim...and if it is, the usual negative effects of it (slow growth rates, slower maturity, etc) will be such a small percentage of your total lamb crop it won't even matter IMO.

Of course if you want to know the parentage for EACH lamb, that's a totally different story...in which case you probably should use a marking harness or paint the ram's brisket.


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## Dean.Collins

ok i get you, basically once its 50/1500 you then just cull the smaller/slower and keep the fatter/faster to top up your flock and replace deadstock and old mutton culls.

thanks.

But how do you work out which rams are/arent performing if you have 50 rams i cant imagine you would have the range of colours for 50 chalk harnesses unless you broken them down into 10 pens etc as suggested.

btw do rams ever fire blanks? eg they'll mount but dont have semen to get a ewe pregnant? how do you then know that yes this ram is working.


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## SheepGirl

Dean.Collins said:
			
		

> ok i get you, basically once its 50/1500 you then just cull the smaller/slower and keep the fatter/faster to top up your flock and replace deadstock and old mutton culls.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> But how do you work out which rams are/arent performing if you have 50 rams i cant imagine you would have the range of colours for 50 chalk harnesses unless you broken them down into 10 pens etc as suggested.
> 
> btw do rams ever fire blanks? eg they'll mount but dont have semen to get a ewe pregnant? how do you then know that yes this ram is working.


Yes, rams can be sterile. So especially with that many rams and the number of ewes you need bred, have a breeding soundness exam done on all of them. You can probably even get by with 30 or 40 rams rather than 50, though.

I don't even think they make them in 50 different colors, I think only about 6-8 or so (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, black), but the paint you can combine colors....yellow-green, blue-green, dark red, dark blue, dark green, etc. But with the paint you have to repaint the brisket every couple of days. That could be a hassle with up to 50 rams.

As for culling the smaller ones--keep in mind those may be twins or triplets, which is a desirable trait in most flocks. The larger, heavier ones are more than likely singles, which is NOT a desirable trait in most flocks. So if you could you & a couple other shepherds could be out on the range with the lambing flock and catch them as they lamb and ear notch the lambs to denote their litter size (one ear notch for a single, two ear notches for twins, etc).


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## Dean.Collins

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> As for culling the smaller ones--keep in mind those may be twins or triplets, which is a desirable trait in most flocks.


Good point

So last question....if you have 1500 ewes do you using "lambing pens" how do you ensure orphans dont happen where a ewe wanders off?


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## goodolboy

We currently have 250 registered Katahdin ewes. We used 6 different rams this year. Yes all in seperate paddocks. All seperated by wolven wire fencing(a ram will go thru electric). All of my rams are color coded in my computer so all of the rams lambs end up color coded the same. this keeps us from cross breeding any ewes in the future. When we remove a ram from the flock, I just remove the color from his ewe lambs. This is working really good for us.

With commercial flocks(most lambs going to the meat market) they will put multiple rams in the flock for compition between the rams. This helps to get the lambing done in a shorter time.


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## Dean.Collins

goodolboy said:
			
		

> We currently have 250 registered Katahdin ewes.


With 250 ewes do you pen them up for lambing in a barn under lights etc?


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## goodolboy

"lambing pens"? Raise Katahdins. They're the best mothers by far. No putting the ewes up or anything, all of our ewes field lamb.

Sterile rams are handled by a know performer. A new ram is used for 30 days then taken out and the ewes are put in with a clean up ram(proven ram). Dates are all noted so you know when the lambs are born who the sire is. No lambs, He's sterile. Low lamb count get rid of him what ever the problem.


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## pinoak_ridge

Goodolboy, I love your quote....





> "lambing pens"? Raise Katahdins. They're the best mothers by far. No putting the ewes up or anything, all of our ewes field lamb.




   Lambing pens??  what are lambing pens.           Kathdins all the way!!       :bun


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