# Advice please!!!  Stripes is getting worse



## getchasome (Mar 22, 2011)

I tried to find my old thread about Stripes getting sick after the wormer, but couldn't, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place.

I gave all of the goats the same dewormer mix.  Stripes is the only one that has changed since.

I'm not at all blaming the wormer mix, just stating that these things started happening afterwards.

The scouring stopped a couple of days after the mix was given.  He has refused to eat any grain since.

He is still getting a bottle, which until a few days ago was whole cows milk.

He is almost 8 weeks old.  

This is what is happening:  One day he will drink his bottles as well as eat the hay and graze on the leaves and grass and weeds.  The next day he doesn't want his bottle but will eat hay and graze, stands with his head hanging down and his ears down.  Walks a bit stiff in his back legs.  The following day he will drink part of his bottle.  This pattern has been repeating for about 4 days now.

I have been giving him the Immune ST from Mollys Herbal as directed.  I've also tried diluting his milk with water and adding a tiny bit of molasses after my husband mentioned that he looks worse after having his bottle.

He is peeing a bit less, meaning that he isn't peeing right after he has his bottle like he was, but instead walks around for a bit and then pees.  His poops are going back and forth between normal goat poops and being like a pudding consistency.

Yesterday before he ate, his stomach on the upper left side (near his back hip) was kinda hard and sticking out.  I patted and rubbed it and it moved down.  He burped a couple of times.  The rest of his stomach (on the same side and the other side) wasn't round or hard.

The biggest thing that is confusing me is that he is biting his hair off.  He will lick an area and then he bite the hair off.  He isn't pulling it out, he doesn't have any bald patches.  His hair now looks short in some places (he is a ND and has kinda long hair) and it looks matted/course.  The hair up around and between his horns looks almost like someone rubbed his head on a carpet and matted it up.

Today he is very listless, he ate about an ounce of his normal 9 ounces.  He laid at my feet, rolled over onto his side and quietly moaned.  I felt his stomach and it is soft.  Right now he is laying in the sun, quietly moaning.  He isn't grinding his teeth or crying loudly.  He will get up and slowly run to the gate and cry if I leave their yard.

The last 2 days we have checked his penis area to see if there was any swelling or redness and there isn't.  We also felt along from his scrotum to his penis to see if there were any bumps, swollen areas or anything bulging out and there wasn't.

I don't know what to do for him and I feel horrible.  It happened so quickly and he will seem to have a good day, and then the next day is worse.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

Is he on any kind of coccidia preventative?  Have you had a fecal run?

Given the age and the on again/off again scour and general 'roughness,' I'm gonna speculate that it's subacute coccidiosis with little mini-bouts of more acute coccidiosis..


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## ksalvagno (Mar 22, 2011)

I think I would start with giving C&D Antitoxin. Give him maybe 10cc orally and 10cc SQ. I think I would stop with the all Molly's stuff for now. I would also get some electrolytes and give him some electrolytes instead of milk. I would say at this point you may have to put the herbal stuff on hold and just get him back to health with whatever you need to. Also some baking soda balls probably wouldn't hurt either. Maybe try and get 2 teaspoons into him.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 22, 2011)

I would run a fecal,

I would especially be checking for coccidiosis. 

He is obviously in pain.

Not sure when you last did the baking soda, or if you do that on a regular basis, but that would be first

IF the fecal came back normal I would do the C&D antitoxin.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> IF the fecal came back normal I would ...


...be shocked.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I think I would start with giving C&D Antitoxin. Give him maybe 10cc orally and 10cc SQ. I think I would stop with the all Molly's stuff for now. I would also get some electrolytes and give him some electrolytes instead of milk. I would say at this point you may have to put the herbal stuff on hold and just get him back to health with whatever you need to. Also some baking soda balls probably wouldn't hurt either. Maybe try and get 2 teaspoons into him.


I second that...and I would add a shot of Vitamin B to that mix.  And get a fecal run and get him treated for coccidia if he has it.  Important..that can kill him and or do permanent damage to his digestive system.  Nothing to fool around with. Dont mean to scare you..thats just the facts.  All should be given preventative feed cause they too can catch it as it sheds out through their poops!  

Good luck...keep us posted.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 22, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, If he was mine, I would be treating for Coccidiosis.


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## Ariel301 (Mar 22, 2011)

He obviously has a tummy ache from something. Poor kid. 

My first two bets would be coccidiosis or enterotoxemia. I agree with getting a fecal check done on him to check for coccidia. If he has not had his CD/T vaccination, I'd give him the CD antitoxin in case that's the culprit, and also put him on a coccidiosis medication. I use the Di-Methox powder that mixes with water, but I mix it with syrup instead to make it easier to get them to take it. Some vitamin B and probiotics won't hurt either, as well as some baking soda to help settle his stomach.


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## getchasome (Mar 22, 2011)

I have been making phone calls trying to find a vet that knows goats.  There is one an hour and a half away that said they could see him tomorrow, starting at $500.  I don't have $500.  

I have given him baking soda mixed with a tiny bit of water, like a thin paste, as a drench and probiotics.  

I have called the couple of livestock supply stores here and neither of them carry anything for goats!!  My husband is stopping on his way home to pick up pedialyte.

I just came in from checking on him and he is up and running around.  When I gave the bottle to the other goat, he sniffed it a couple of times and didn't try to take it like he usually does, he started grazing.  He ate leaves, grass & weeds the entire time she drank her 20 oz.

I gave them fresh water and new hay.  He ran to the hay and stuck his face in it, bahhed a couple of times and starting eating.  He was so busy eating that he didn't cry when I left their yard.

He pooped while he was eating the leaves and it was dark green and normal poops.  

I also talked to the lady that I bought him from.  She said that they don't treat their goats for anything or vaccinate.  She said they've never lost one to being sick, that the ones they do lose are the babies. 

Is there something that he could've had at birth that is showing up now?  

I also have been reading up on doing the fecal myself.  The vets office that actually gave me a little bit of time on the phone said that they can't run a goat fecal because they don't see goats.  I asked (I guess I'm not smart enough to know the difference  ) if the fecal test done on a dog or a cat is different than a goat.  She said they don't see goats, so they can't run ANY tests for goats.    is it different?  Everything I read said to look for the specific eggs, isn't that what all fecals do?


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## Ariel301 (Mar 22, 2011)

Our vets are the same here. I got a microscope to do my own fecal testing. They don't see goats, they don't want to see goats, and they won't give you anything for a goat without bringing the goat in for an exam, in which they charge you $300 and say they don't know anything about goats, and that it would probably be best to buy a bullet and a new goat.

You can probably buy Di-Methox (sulfadimethoxine) at a feed store, it is used for more than just goats. There are other ones too, but I forget their names...Treat him with it, it won't hurt to do so even if it is not coccidiosis. You've got to do something, right? 

I doubt it's something he was born with. The major signs of coccidiosis are reduced appetite, diarrhea (sometimes bloody), poor growth, rough, dull coats, and pot bellied kids that are thin otherwise. I was having this issue with kids of mine, except that mine showed no symptoms other than not growing right, rough hair, and that thin/pot bellied look. This can kill kids or stunt them seriously if not treated, it causes damage to the intestines that may be permanent.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 22, 2011)

What kind of milk is he getting in his bottle?  Cow milk, goat milk, replacer?  Just curious.  Sometimes that can be a main source of the problem.


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Mar 22, 2011)

Maybe the milk isn't being digested properly?

I still think it could be coccidiosis however. I'd look into maybe gradually changing what he's fed along with treating him with CD/T antitoxin (enterotoxemia quick fix) and something for coccidiosis.
I hope he gets better soon! Give him his vaccines when he's old enough, he didn't get any immunity passed down from his mom since she wasn't vaccinated before he was born.

Edit: Well with cmjust0's input later down the page, I'll honestly admit that I didn't realize the severity of enterotoxemia as a new goat owner. Probably shouldn't have recommended CD/T antitoxin, but I'll leave it up anyway for other people new to goats. Enterotoxemia is what causes poop like water, pudding poops usually isn't that. Now I get it, hope someone else learns from this too.


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## getchasome (Mar 22, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> What kind of milk is he getting in his bottle?  Cow milk, goat milk, replacer?  Just curious.  Sometimes that can be a main source of the problem.


he has been getting whole cows milk ... his first 2 weeks he got Manna Pro milk replacer but was switched over to whole cows milk

my husband said twice that he looked worse after having the bottle ... this morning he drank maybe an ounce and hasn't had any more milk today and this evening his eyes looked bright and he was up, running and bucking a little bit .. I'm so confused and worried!!


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Mar 22, 2011)

The first time you mentioned he looked worse after his bottle I was worried that he wasn't digesting it properly, and now it definitely sounds like that's the case.

I honestly would switch him back to somehing his body can handle, or wean him and hope for the best.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 23, 2011)

How do you hold his bottle?  Does he get down low and then crane his neck up (like they do when they are under mama nursing)?  It was said on a thread here recently that when a baby is in the proper position for feeding it closes off the passage to the part of the tummy that you don't want milk to go to - and allows milk to go to the proper spot.  Now the particular post that I'm referring to was far more scientific about it than that - but that my simpleton version - cause that's how my pea brain works.

All that to say, it would seem odd to me that he would have a hard time digesting the milk since so many here recommend whole milk when goats milk is unavailable and the babies seem to thrive.  If it's hitting the wrong tummy, well that may make sense.  Or if there's something else amiss that's causing the indigestion. 

I'm sorry, I don't really have any advice, just thought it might be helpful to consider another angle.  I've decided goats are far more work than my children have been, combined - and I have 7 kids!


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## PattySh (Mar 23, 2011)

Are you warming his milk or feeding cold?


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## Roll farms (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm stumped....I've never had a kid do 'worse' after eating.

I'd have a fecal ran, fwiw.

Good luck w/ him.


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## helmstead (Mar 23, 2011)

I vote cocci.  Subclinical coccidosis, actually.


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## 4hmama (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm with Helmstead...cocci.  Dog vets usually have Albon on hand for cocci in dogs...you should be able to get ahold of some.  

As far as the hair pulling - have you looked for lice??  Not unusual to have this time of year...

Good luck!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 23, 2011)

Oooookay...  So, I've been seeing more and more references lately to treating with C&D antitoxin at the least little sign of the squirts *just in case* it's enterotoxemia..  Not sure how that ball got rolling, but I'm seeing that suggestion more and more and more, to the point that it's beginning to trouble me a bit..

Here's the thing -- if it's enterotoxemia, you probably won't have time to consider whether or not you should give C&D antitoxin, let alone wonder if what you're seeing is really anything to be all that concerned about..  With entero, you won't see the goat going from solid to pudding to solid or watch it go from a little bit roached up to playing, etc..  With entero, they go from perfectly fine to a 'dirty water' scour to severely dehydrated to dead, often in a matter of hours.

That's because enterotoxemia is an incredibly severe bacterial infection of the gut...  It's dysentary..  "Food poisoning," basically...  And not the simple "Oh man, shouldn't have made that run for the border" dietary upset that people colloquially refer to as 'food-poisoning'...I'm talking about the "Hey, did you hear Jimmy got a bad can of pork and beans and died of botulism??" kind of food poisoning..  **ENTERO IS SERIOUS BUSINESS**

SO...if you have a goat that's off and on with scours, or if their scours are pudding-y and gross but don't progress to *DIRTY OR YELLOW WATER* you're almost certainly NOT looking at enterotoxemia..

"But CM...what does it really hurt to give the antitoxin just in case?"

Well, first of all, giving antitoxin negates previous vaccination for the disease..  So, by giving it "just in case" to a goat that clearly doesn't have entero, you're actually opening the door for that goat to get a big honkin case of it..  The anti-toxin confers passive immunity for...um...a week, or 10 days, or up to 2 wks -- depends on what you read.  So, how long do you wait to revaccinate?  A couple weeks?  What if that goat's passive immunity wore off in a week?  Or maybe you only wait a week to vaccinate, but the C&D was still working and negates the vaccine..  And then there's the space between vaccination and actually developing full immunity..  Any way you look at it, you're opening a window for entero by using C&D antitoxin carelessly..

Second of all, C&D antitoxin is expensive -- about $40 if you buy a 250ml vial off the shelf -- and it's a biological product.  If you read the label, it will tell you to "use entire contents when first opened."  I've even seen labels that add "Burn all containers and unused contents."  Basically, in the eyes of the manufacturer, puncturing the seal taints the bottle.  

Now, I know there are those out there who disagree with me on that, but that label's there for a reason, and the reason is that it can no longer be considered sterile once you puncture the bottle..  Now, will most of us go out and buy another $40 bottle of C&D antitoxin because gave a kid a whopping 10ml of our 250ml vial?  

Uh, no...

So now you've not only opened a window for entero to strike, but the only bottle of C&D antitoxin you have on hand isn't even sterile and should perhaps have been incinerated!

Just sayin'...use C&D antitoxin wisely.  If you have a goat that's acting really, really way bad off and is spewing foul-smelling, yellow or dirty water from its hind end...use it.  If it's a kid with an occasional muddy butt that's making puddin poops...really think about what you're doing.

That's all.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 23, 2011)

This isn't an advocation for using it willy nilly becasue CMs post is good warning to heed.  HOWEVER, if you are needing the antitoxin and want to keep smaller sterile bottles Hoegger's sells the antitoxin in 50ml bottles as well as the 250ml bottles.  They aren't as cost effective as the 250ml bottles.  I think it's close to $8.00 for the smaller bottles.  I'm buying a couple small bottles to keep on hand rather than the big one.


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## helmstead (Mar 23, 2011)

Given the number of vaccinated goats that succumb to entero...um...I will stand by any recommendation to USE C&D antitoxin at the beginning of digestive upset to PREVENT getting to full blown entero where you'll more than likely be behind the 8 ball by the time you get C&D in there.  The vaccination is practically worthless as far as I'm concerned, because I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, "But, he/she was vaccinated, how could he/she GET entero?"


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## cmjust0 (Mar 23, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> This isn't an advocation for using it willy nilly becasue CMs post is good warning to heed.  HOWEVER, if you are needing the antitoxin and want to keep smaller sterile bottles Hoegger's sells the antitoxin in 50ml bottles as well as the 250ml bottles.  They aren't as cost effective as the 250ml bottles.  I think it's close to $8.00 for the smaller bottles.  I'm buying a couple small bottles to keep on hand rather than the big one.


Now THAT is awesome..  I hadn't been to Hoegger's website in months and months, but I've seen two references now to some cool stuff they offer that you can't find anywhere else..  I can't remember what the other cool thing was, but it was cool nonetheless..  That much, I remember.  

Off to Hoegger to look around.  

(btw...I always thought it was pronounced "hoger" until I had to call to check the status of an order..  Apparently, it's pronounced "hager" with a long A..  I was surprised.  Just thought I'd pass that along.   )


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## cmjust0 (Mar 23, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Given the number of vaccinated goats that succumb to entero...um...I will stand by any recommendation to USE C&D antitoxin at the beginning of digestive upset


Given the number of people who mistake many other things for entero, I will stand by my recommendation to hold off on using it and rely on vaccination.

Also want to point out that lots and lots of people -- some of which are regulars on this very forum -- pshaw the notion of pitching unused vaccine despite the label instruction, and one of my questions has *always* been (and this can be verfied by searching the forum) whether or not the vaccine is as effective as it needs to be if it's "leftovers"..

Hmmm..


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## getchasome (Mar 23, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> How do you hold his bottle?  Does he get down low and then crane his neck up (like they do when they are under mama nursing)?  It was said on a thread here recently that when a baby is in the proper position for feeding it closes off the passage to the part of the tummy that you don't want milk to go to - and allows milk to go to the proper spot.  Now the particular post that I'm referring to was far more scientific about it than that - but that my simpleton version - cause that's how my pea brain works.
> 
> All that to say, it would seem odd to me that he would have a hard time digesting the milk since so many here recommend whole milk when goats milk is unavailable and the babies seem to thrive.  If it's hitting the wrong tummy, well that may make sense.  Or if there's something else amiss that's causing the indigestion.
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't really have any advice, just thought it might be helpful to consider another angle.  I've decided goats are far more work than my children have been, combined - and I have 7 kids!


I hold his bottle like if it was the mamas teet, so yes, he is really low with his head craned back (looks so uncomfortable lol)  I really do appreciate everyone commenting and suggesting!!


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## getchasome (Mar 23, 2011)

PattySh said:
			
		

> Are you warming his milk or feeding cold?


cold ... I pour it into the bottles, put them into my jacket pockets and walk out to their yard, about 3 minutes away.


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## getchasome (Mar 23, 2011)

4hmama said:
			
		

> I'm with Helmstead...cocci.  Dog vets usually have Albon on hand for cocci in dogs...you should be able to get ahold of some.
> 
> As far as the hair pulling - have you looked for lice??  Not unusual to have this time of year...
> 
> Good luck!


The IFA store here is ordering the DiMethox and said it will be here in the morning ... I also have an order from Jeffers coming in tomorrow 

I did look for lice and have dusted them all with DE ... its so weird the hair thing he is doing ... he hasn't pulled any out, but is biting it off ... part of his hair is long (the areas he can't reach) but the part he is biting, is about 1/2 the length ... none of the others are biting their hair ... they were itching, the baby girl had lice and that was why I dusted their house, their yard and them as well as the duck and the chickens


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## getchasome (Mar 23, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Oooookay...  So, I've been seeing more and more references lately to treating with C&D antitoxin at the least little sign of the squirts *just in case* it's enterotoxemia..  Not sure how that ball got rolling, but I'm seeing that suggestion more and more and more, to the point that it's beginning to trouble me a bit..
> 
> Here's the thing -- if it's enterotoxemia, you probably won't have time to consider whether or not you should give C&D antitoxin, let alone wonder if what you're seeing is really anything to be all that concerned about..  With entero, you won't see the goat going from solid to pudding to solid or watch it go from a little bit roached up to playing, etc..  With entero, they go from perfectly fine to a 'dirty water' scour to severely dehydrated to dead, often in a matter of hours.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that explanation!!  I am very appreciative of all of the advice, knowledge and suggestions because I'm still learning


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## ksalvagno (Mar 23, 2011)

I know some people feed cold milk but I really think warming it up to a temp like you would for a baby is better.


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## getchasome (Mar 23, 2011)

To update - this morning when I went out he was eating hay.  When he saw me he RAN to the gate talking the whole way ... I opened the gate and he stood up on his back legs and put his front hooves on my legs 

I gave the other baby her bottle of milk and I gave Stripes some pedialyte, about 2.5 oz ... he drank it down then sniffed at the bottle of milk.  He didn't try to take it, he actually turned and walked out the gate and started eating the grassy weeds ... when the other baby was done with her bottle, we went out the gate and they started playing on the pile of rocks ... they played and grazed for about an hour.

When we went back into their yard, we sat down with them (my son reads in the mornings while we are with the goats) and Stripes laid next to my legs, pushed himself right up against them, put his head on the pallet and went to sleep.  He made a couple of soft moan/settling sounds and slept.







We made the flotation saturation mix last night and have been checking it through-out the day.  I've been studying the pictures of cocci on Fias Co farms website and I'm going to do the fecal tonight.  If I don't have luck, then I am going to drive out to Boulder City tomorrow and sit in the vets office until they help me.  They treat horses and dogs and cows, how different can a goat fecal actually be???

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments!!!


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