# ...Pending...



## Genipher (Aug 13, 2018)

I just turned in my animal permit application to the city TODAY! If approved, I'll be able to get backyard goats and chickens!

The ladies at City Hall seem to be pro-animal. The woman who took my fee ($52.50) said she used to raise sheep and, once upon a time, had a goat. She looked at the pictures of our backyard I'd included with the application and said it looked big enough for goats (we have a 74' x 65' backyard with a 20' x 10' wannabe goat shed). She seemed excited for me.

I've spoken several times via phone with the woman who will actually go over my application and say yea or nay. She didn't sound at all shocked or concerned that I wanted city goats, though she did mention once that, "goats are loud".

I'm fairly confident I'll be approved. My only worry is the city noise ordinance. Apparently the neighbors next to us, who are up the hill, can't hear our dog when she barks so I'm assuming she won't hear goats. There are woods behind us and a school as our other "neighbor" so goat noises wouldn't bother those close to us. However, I know sound carries and we're on a hill so the neighbors downhill might not be thrilled with us...

If the city gives me the green light I'm gonna go forward with my goaty dream and risk the neighborhood's ire. But I _did_ want to ask, what can I expect noise-wise from, say, a couple of does and possibly a whether? Do goats sleep quietly throughout the night?


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## greybeard (Aug 13, 2018)

Genipher said:


> She seemed excited for me.


Just a thought.....The lady that takes my property taxes every year and the one that takes my fee for vehicle and trailer registration renewals always seem so cheerful & excited for me as well. 
OTOH, they may just appear excited for themselves...(or perhaps astonished that I've somehow managed to live another year.)


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## CntryBoy777 (Aug 13, 2018)

It depends on the breed and how "routine oriented" that ya are...the animals will let ya know if you are late with pellets or off routine.....they will sound like they are being left to starve if late..........our doe and 2 wethers are barely noticed, except for those times.....they are pygmy/boer crosses, the doe is full pygmy.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 13, 2018)

Breeds make a difference. Individual goats make a difference.

Most of our Nigerians can be loud as babies but that is just because they want their bottles. They quiet down as they grow. HOWEVER, many of our quietest Nigerians after kidding the first time became quite noisy. Especially in heat. We have since sold the few that were absolute screamers in heat. 3 days every 3 weeks they screamed! Worse in the true rut months. Now we only have a few that holler during heat and it's not too bad.
Our Lamanchas are always quiet with the exception of us being late for milking- then they "remind" us to get our buts out there.  Of course it does get loud once we start doing once a day milking and drying off.

So far only a few of our Nubian kids have been loud. Thankfully the line out of Ruby are quiet- you wouldn't know there were Nubians here. We have a new girl- different line so we shall see.

Our Mini's... None of our mini nubians were loud- ever- again out of Ruby.
The mini manchas are generally quiet past the baby stage.

Out of all our goats the Nigerians hands down are the loudest/noisiest goats.  Our friends have a few that are also screamers in heat. So bad that even though they didn't want to breed them they did just to get them to shut up. It's real, I tell ya.


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## Genipher (Aug 13, 2018)

@greybeard I got to thinking, maybe the City Hall gals were just excited to get my $50+ ...


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## Genipher (Aug 13, 2018)

@CntryBoy777 
A routine is something I'm gonna have to work hard to implement...as it is, I'm a rather unscheduled person.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 13, 2018)

Genipher said:


> @CntryBoy777
> A routine is something I'm gonna have to work hard to implement...as it is, I'm a rather unscheduled person.



you won't be once you have goats


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## CntryBoy777 (Aug 13, 2018)

Animals of any kind will cause ya to work a "routine" with them.....they sure tend to Multiply!!.....


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## Genipher (Aug 13, 2018)

@Southern by choice 
Will the does still scream to be bred if there's no buck around?

I've heard before that Nubians are loud. Nigerians would be perfect for our backyard but it sounds like they're noisier, too. I _love_ LaManchas. It sounds (pun intended!) like they might be what I'm looking for. Though my first goats will probably be whatever I can find on Craigslist. I can't afford expensive, registered stick to start off with and my area (Oregon west coast) seems to be lacking in the goat dept. Or maybe I just don't know where to look...

Hey, so you might have created a "quiet goat breed" with your "Ruby Line" , eh? That could be profitable. Especially if you sell to folks looking for a true backyard herd!


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## Genipher (Aug 13, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> you won't be once you have goats



 So true!!


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## Genipher (Aug 13, 2018)

CntryBoy777 said:


> Animals of any kind will cause ya to work a "routine" with them.....they sure tend to Multiply!!.....



We used to have meat rabbits but they were easy going and didn't require much of a schedule. Goats are gonna be a whole new ball game!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 13, 2018)

Some does do still scream without a buck... others don't.

There are LOTS of goats where you are.  pm me and I will recommend some sites. Are you looking for pet only or breeding? BTW- nothing wrong with the homestead non- froo froo goat! 
Just get tested healthy goats. 

You may want to look at a few mature does and work with someone who is honest and can tell you everything about the goats.


You won't mind getting into the routine because they are so enjoyable you will love to be out there with them.


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## Latestarter (Aug 14, 2018)

If you don't plan to breed, why not stick with wethers? Good for learning and if you decide you do want to have kids down the road, you can replace the wethers with does. Maybe even buy bred does so your first go-round you won't need a buck or need to worry about finding one. Also, with wethers, there's no concerns for screaming when in heat, and they are a lot cheaper to purchase than does. In my limited experience, my wethers have been the friendliest (and quietest) of all the animals as well. Congrats and I hope you get approved. My Lamanchas are generally pretty quiet, but they do talk to me when I go out and they know I'm there, and of course, like most goats, get very talkative when it's meal time and more so if you're late bringing them their food.


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## greybeard (Aug 14, 2018)

Genipher said:


> @greybeard I got to thinking, maybe the City Hall gals were just excited to get my $50+ ...


I figured they were just pleased to both get my $$ AND spend a little time conversing with a fiesty old gent such as myself. 

Good luck with your 'permit' 

(I just can't get my head wrapped around needing a permit to farm)


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## Genipher (Aug 14, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> If you don't plan to breed, why not stick with wethers? Good for learning and if you decide you do want to have kids down the road, you can replace the wethers with does. Maybe even buy bred does so your first go-round you won't need a buck or need to worry about finding one. Also, with wethers, there's no concerns for screaming when in heat, and they are a lot cheaper to purchase than does. In my limited experience, my wethers have been the friendliest (and quietest) of all the animals as well. Congrats and I hope you get approved. My Lamanchas are generally pretty quiet, but they do talk to me when I go out and they know I'm there, and of course, like most goats, get very talkative when it's meal time and more so if you're late bringing them their food.



I think you're 100% right. Unless I miraculously find a cheapish pregnant doe that I just can't pass up, wethers will be the best for us at this time.


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## Genipher (Aug 14, 2018)

greybeard said:


> I figured they were just pleased to both get my $$ AND spend a little time conversing with a fiesty old gent such as myself.
> 
> Good luck with your 'permit'
> 
> (I just can't get my head wrapped around needing a permit to farm)



I know! And it's a yearly fee, too! If only we had moved _one_ town over we wouldn't have had ANY requirements for backyard livestock. Amazing how one town can be so picky and regulate everything to death while the next town doesn't care a fig!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 14, 2018)

@greybeard  this is a town that declared themselves food sovereign then they banned urban farming then they had a farm day 
https://bangordailynews.com/2018/06/21/homestead/the-maine-town-that-outlawed-urban-farming/

My mom says that growing up in a small town everyone had chickens in the backyard because that is how you had eggs.. also the rare special chicken dinner. What was normal life then has become ... I don't know what it's become.


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## Genipher (Aug 14, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> @greybeard  this is a town that declared themselves food sovereign then they banned urban farming then they had a farm day
> https://bangordailynews.com/2018/06/21/homestead/the-maine-town-that-outlawed-urban-farming/
> 
> My mom says that growing up in a small town everyone had chickens in the backyard because that is how you had eggs.. also the rare special chicken dinner. What was normal life then has become ... I don't know what it's become.



Taboo. And at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, folks that have their own gardens, water catchments, and livestock are probably viewed as a potential threat. Big Brother gets grouchy when we're not under his thumb.


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## Athena2344 (Aug 14, 2018)

You might also be interested in angoras, or angora crosses. They are incredibly quiet, gentle and easy going, and you can get money from their mohair! Unregistered angoras go incredibly cheap, like 50 to 100 bucks, registered is 300 and up.


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## Genipher (Aug 14, 2018)

Athena2344 said:


> You might also be interested in angoras, or angora crosses. They are incredibly quiet, gentle and easy going, and you can get money from their mohair! Unregistered angoras go incredibly cheap, like 50 to 100 bucks, registered is 300 and up.



Hmmmm...I hadn't considered angoras. That's an idea. I'll have to check and see if there are any in our area. Thanks!


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## greybeard (Aug 14, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> @greybeard  this is a town that declared themselves food sovereign then they banned urban farming then they had a farm day
> https://bangordailynews.com/2018/06/21/homestead/the-maine-town-that-outlawed-urban-farming/


I suppose I can understand the following part of it, as I have certain set backs I have to follow as well, and my neighbors are all either family or empty US Govt land. 
_The new land ordinance also stipulates any shed housing livestock or poultry must be 15 feet away from the property line and 100 feet away from the nearest neighbor’s existing dwelling._

Lots of places have a similar buffer/setback but many, if not most make it a requirement that the non-ag property  provide it. 

I firmly support Right to Farm, but I do understand that my rights end where someone else's begin. I have the Right to Farm, but we all have that *Unalienable* Right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness




> My mom says that growing up in a small town everyone had chickens in the backyard because that is how you had eggs.. also the rare special chicken dinner. What was normal life then has become ... I don't know what it's become.



I grew up in a small unincorporated town about 40 miles East of here (it still isn't incorporated today). I don't know how many people had poultry there, but I suspect less than 1/4, but lots tended to be a lot larger than most suburban lots today. Like today, more people there had horses and cows than poultry. A few had a pig or 2. I never saw anyone with goats or sheep but that may have changed with the demographics over the years as immigration has changed that demographic a lot.

In most states, the "Right to Farm" carries a LOT of legal weight. Maine has one.
https://www.maine.gov/dacf/municipalplanning/technical/farmland_ordinances.shtml

I wonder if the Madison city council followed this part of the State of Maine Right to Farm Act?

_§ 155. Application; municipal ordinances This chapter does not affect the application of state and federal laws. *A municipality must provide the commissioner with a copy of any proposed ordinance that affects farm operations or agricultural composting operations. The clerk of the municipality or a municipal official designated by the clerk shall submit a copy of the proposed ordinance to the commissioner at least 90 days prior to the meeting of the legislative body or public hearing at which adoption of the ordinance will be considered.* The commissioner shall review the proposed ordinance and advise the municipality as to whether the proposed ordinance restricts or prohibits the use of best management practices. This section does not affect municipal authority to enact ordinances._


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 14, 2018)

Genipher said:


> I've heard before that Nubians are loud. Nigerians would be perfect for our backyard but it sounds like they're noisier, too. I _love_ LaManchas. It sounds (pun intended!) like they might be what I'm looking for. Though my first goats will probably be whatever I can find on Craigslist. I can't afford expensive, registered stick to start off with and my area (Oregon west coast) seems to be lacking in the goat dept. Or maybe I just don't know where to look...



Lamanchas are a wonderful breed! I love them. 
If I didn't have/start with Nigerians, I'd probably just stick with Lamanchas. 

Have you looked into miniature Lamanchas? Lots of Mini Lamancha breeders in your state! http://miniaturedairygoats.net/district_1.html#Oregon

A few things I didn't see mentioned, you might already know this but thought I'd add it anyway. 
PLEASE buy from a tested herd! We test for CAE, CL, and Johnes. Be sure to see the documentation for yourself. If herd owner says the vet has the paperwork, request it anyway. 

Research whether or not you want horned animals. We used to have a mostly horned herd and have switched to hornless herd over the years. 
Experience has taught us a bit LOL  

Make sure the goats are socialized. I see so many times, "needs time to warm up", "will get better after kidding", or "just needs someone to love her". This can also be known as: goats were never touched or handled and will be crazy/skiddish/wild. 
While I have tamed "wild" goats down considerably, it is not the best experience when you bring your first goats home, put them in their pen, and they pace/run and are terrified of humans. We bottle feed our kids, so they are extremely friendly. Before that we dam raised. Kids were still friendly, but they need to be handled since birth. 

Find a breeder who will also be a mentor. When we sell a goat, our clients know we will be there for the life of the goat. 

You can get good goats that are unregistered.  But make sure they are healthy, that the kids are on cocci prevention (or monitored for cocci). That the herd is tested and healthy. Sometimes it's better to delay getting goats and saving up for quality stock- and that doesn't mean the goat is registered. Disease IS out there, and quite common in goats. You do not want to infect your land. It doesn't hurt to talk to breeders who are a more established and tell them your goals. I show my goats and participate in DHIR milktest. Not every goat produced is made to walk in the ring, but those does can make awesome homestead goats for a "backyard herd" 

I cannot tell you how many time we've had people come to us after having bad experiences with other "breeders". Dead kids, sick goats, diseased goats that now need to be destroyed....It's sad.


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## greybeard (Aug 14, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I see so many times, "needs time to warm up", "will get better after kidding", or "just needs someone to love her". This can also be known as: goats were never touched or handled and will be crazy/skiddish/wild.



and sale barn auctioneers have their own lexicon.

'These steers will grow overnight!" (chronic bloaters)

'These calves will take right off for you'..(thru your fence, to your neighbors or to parts unknown)

'she's just got a little gimp in her getalong, but a dose of la300 will have her up and going in a week..' (dragging a hind hoof often with blood everywhere)

'This  here's a good lookin old cow here..just needs some groceries in the feed trough...'  ( not enough teeth left to eat grass and has to be fed something she can swallow whole)

"They're just like money in your pocket!" (So, if you wanna keep it, leave it there!)

"Don't pass this one up!"...(she won't last much longer)

"Solid mouthed and fat!" (perennially open cows are always fat!)

"She'll fit right in!" (The vet shack, the chronic pen or the dead wagon!)


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## Southern by choice (Aug 14, 2018)




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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 14, 2018)

We had an auctioneer around here a while back that would always say (about any limping critter)  "it's a long ways from her heart."


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## Genipher (Aug 14, 2018)

greybeard said:


> and sale barn auctioneers have their own lexicon.
> 
> 'These steers will grow overnight!" (chronic bloaters)
> 
> ...


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## Ridgetop (Aug 28, 2018)

greybeard said:


> and sale barn auctioneers have their own lexicon.
> 
> 'These steers will grow overnight!" (chronic bloaters)
> 
> ...




Read this to DH - he is now on his computer  chuckling away!.  Every aspect of life has its own language. 

"Does not play well with others" (beats up the other kids

"Cozy cottage"  (too small to live in)

"Needs TLC"  (it's a tear down)

"Only driven by a little old lady"  (who needs glasses and has a lead foot)

My vote s for LaManchas.  We have had all but the dwarf breeds.  We preferred Nubans for milk, but the LaManchas also had sweet milk.  They had a softer voice and are were very sweet.

I don't like the smaller dwarf breeds because you have to bend down so far to do anything with them and my back isn't what it was.   But not having had them I don't feel qualified to comment on their personalities just their short stature.

My main suggestion is that you try to buy 2 from the same herd.  We started with 2 year old Nubian twin sisters that were in milk (needed for the family) and they were silent from the beginning since they knew each other and were company for each other.  The breeder bred them back each year for us.  She was into milk production and was on milk test and the sisters had earned their own stars. We had some of the Swiss breeds (Toggs, Alpines, etc.) but didn't like the taste of their milk so sold them after a year or so.  When our older son sold his sheep, the younger boys decided to go back into showing dairy goats (we still had the descendants of the original herd) at which time my middle son bought his first LaMancha and started building his own show herd.  His original show LaManchas were out of the Lucky Star herd in Washington state.  They were on milk test and were out of star milkers so we always had high producing dairy animals. We went back to them for most of our bucks, etc. 

TMI but if you can buy sisters from the same herd, or wethered bucklings from the same herd, or a mother/daughter duo from the same herd, they will be quieter. 

Make sure they are healthy, look at records, the more the breeder keeps, the better.  There should be records on when shots are given, milk records, kidding records, etc. on all herd members.  Make sure you see the blood test records on the entire herd too, CAE, CL, Johnnes, etc.  Ask about breeding back to the breeders buckd if yoi plan to have kiids.  If you have only goats from the one breeder, they will often breed yours back if you have a closed herd with no access to other animals.

A good breeder will be thrilled that you are knowledgeable and asking about all these things and will pull out all the records and show them to you.  If they are anything like I used to be, they will inundate you with more information than you want, and you will know that you have found a great resource for your goat adventure!
The fun starts now!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 28, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> TMI but if you can buy sisters from the same herd, or wethered bucklings from the same herd, or a mother/daughter duo from the same herd, they will be quieter.
> 
> Make sure they are healthy, look at records, the more the breeder keeps, the better.  There should be records on when shots are given, milk records, kidding records, etc. on all herd members.  Make sure you see the blood test records on the entire herd too, CAE, CL, Johnnes, etc.  Ask about breeding back to the breeders buckd if yoi plan to have kiids.  If you have only goats from the one breeder, they will often breed yours back if you have a closed herd with no access to other animals.
> 
> ...



Very well said! 
A breeder that can and will mentor you is very valuable.
We see this often. People go for the cheapest thing they can find and the animals aren't tested... no support etc.

I know for us we are there for the life of the goat and our clients.
We get so many calls/emails of people that bought goats and have no support. 

Better to save up and get goats from someone that is knowledgeable, tests, and can give support than to just get goats.
BTW lots of people do not test but say they do or are negative for something.... um if ya don't test for it then you don't know if your negative.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 28, 2018)

Listen to what is being said!!!
Also find your local dairy goat club, attend meetings!!! Smoky Mountain Dairy Goat Association was a life saver my first many years of goatkeeping.  Join ADGA and check out membership directory to find breeders.  Even if you never plan to show, a goat with correct type is going to be longer lived, productive!!!


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## Genipher (Aug 28, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Very well said!
> A breeder that can and will mentor you is very valuable.
> We see this often. People go for the cheapest thing they can find and the animals aren't tested... no support etc.
> 
> ...



I must admit, it's tempting to go with what's cheapest. But I'm strongly leaning toward LaManchas and I know I'll need to save up for them. And I would never, ever buy an untested goat. I don't need those kinds of problems!

On that note, I've never seen the paperwork that shows blood work, etc. for goats. When that time comes, what exactly should I be looking for when I'm shown the test results?


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