# Acute onset of weirdness?



## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2010)

Not sure this goes in the "Diseases-Goats" forum, but I dunno where else to put it.

My big boer doe -- the herd queen -- has had a drastic change in personality lately.  A day or two after we opened up new pasture, we took the goats for a "tour" and noticed she'd gotten left behind at some point.  When we got back to the barn, she was standing in the old cattle chute by herself.  Looking back, I'm pretty sure she was missing from the herd the whole time we were walking them around, but...well...we got lots of goats, sooo..

It's weird, though, because her kid was with us.  

She was much the same the next day...being "shy," for lack of a better word.  Won't come out of the barn.  Not depressed, though, in the "she's sick" kind of way...when we go down to the barn to feed, she comes out and acts perfectly normal.  Gets antsy for her grain and gobbles it right down, eats some hay with everybody, gets a drink...then shimmies back under the brooder box or goes back in the chute again.

Upon further investigation, we realized that she had a rip in her ear and what looked like puncture wounds on her head.  She's been known to squabble with the LGDs at times (herd queen), so we figured...ok...she made one of the dogs mad, they duked it out, and now she has an infection and isn't feeling the best.  Clean the wounds, antibiotics, she'll be fine.

Well, last night was the last of her antibiotics and she's STILL being a weirdo.  Stays in the barn all day while the rest of the herd goes out browsing.  Just lays under the brooder box.  What I *have* noticed, though, is that she'll come out in late evening and yell for her baby..  And if you sorta lead/push her out into the back field where the rest of the goats are, she goes right out with them like..."Oh hey, wassup guys.  OM NOM NOM NOM"..  Once she's out of the barn, she eats like it's going out of style....like nothing in the world is wrong.

And when her baby sees her, he -- of course -- runs over and hits her like a speedbag.  She just sniffs his butt and lets him get his fill.  No problem there, either.

I dunno...it's almost like she's TERRIFIED all the time now.  She's gotten considerably more skitty around me, and she's just really "secretive" now and doesn't show her face much..

What I'm starting to think -- and this may sound really, really stupid -- is that this is all psychological, and has to do with whatever happened to her that gave her the split ear and punctured head.  Of course, I had originally thought that it was probably the LGD...but when she comes out, she doesn't show any more fear of the LGD than she ever has.

Could it be...and I really, really hate to think of this...but do you guys think it's possible that she's avoiding that back pasture because something really, really terrible happened back there?  I mean, they go WAY out of sight of us, and the dogs follow.  I'm almost wondering if she was attacked by a coyote or dog back there, the LGDs defended her and got her loose, and now she's like HELL NO...I'm just gonna lay right here, under my brooder box, until you guys throw s'more hay!


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## lilhill (Sep 1, 2010)

Sounds like that may be a real possibility.  A neighbor had a coyote get after their small herd when they were in their shelter, and it took a really long time for them to go back in there.  Don't blame them.


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## glenolam (Sep 1, 2010)

I think that's a very good possibility.  I bring my herd queen back to her previous owner for breeding, and she seems to instantly know her mother and sister.  She goes from being the gueen with this attitude at my house to the mousy little girl when her mom is around.

She's probably skiddish of you right now because you're messing with the sore spots - and maybe she's associating you with whatever did that to her....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2010)

Well...she always sorta half-hates me, mostly because I'm the one who always has to torture her with shots, hoof trimming, wound care -- all the fun stuff.  

But, ya...she's a little extra skitty in the last few days.  Unless I have grain, of course, which she'll gobble right out of my hand.    I went into the stall with her last night to collect her grain pan and run her out so I could run the kids in and feed them, and she skittered over to the corner of the stall and stood there like "DON'T KILL ME"...she had her head cocked to the side juuuust enough to keep an eye on me, and her eyes were literally _bugged out_ like she was just terrified.  It wasn't just a matter of 'orneryness as usual'...it was true fear.  That bothered me, so I went over and tried to love on her for a minute..

I dunno..  She's just being really weird.  A case of PTSD is the only thing I can think of right now to explain it.

And I *know* goats are capable of remembering things that cause them fear and pain, even if they're not sentient beings..  Otherwise, electric fences wouldn't work and they wouldn't run from us when they saw us holding syringes..


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 1, 2010)

Poor girl...something must of spooked her??  I bet something out there got her ear, like you said...It totally makes sense..Hope she settles soon for you..


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## warthog (Sep 1, 2010)

Yes I would say she has been spooked by something.

Last year I had a particular area which my goats would not go into, they would stand and stare, but not go.  I even put one of them on a lead and tried to take them in that direction, but no, hooves dug in would not go.  Some days later they were up there browsing.

A suggestion may be to walk over the area, you think she may have been spooked in carrying some grain for her and see how she behaves.


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## jodief100 (Sep 1, 2010)

I have an LGD doing the same thing.  She hasn't been hurt or anything but the past two days she just wants to hide.  My other LGD was doing it last week and now he is fine.  Maybe it is just something with the weather?

With the goat, I suspect she got spooked and now associates that area with something scary.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 1, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> And I *know* goats are capable of remembering things that cause them fear and pain, even if they're not sentient beings..  Otherwise, electric fences wouldn't work and they wouldn't run from us when they saw us holding syringes..


All critters (even the exceptionally dumb ones  ) have to be able to designate something "safe" or "dangerous" in order to survive.  If they couldn't remember those designations they wouldn't survive long enough to reproduce!  You're right that if something happened she would remember.  That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me!  

If you wanted to take the time to get her over it you might try feeding her the grain as close to that area as you're both willing to go (sounds like it's a good distance away).  Perhaps over time her association will shift from the apparent trauma (dangerous) to eating grain (safe).


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2010)

I put her out there the other day with the rest of the herd and the LGDs the other day, shut the gate behind all of them.  She joined the herd way up at the top of the hill near the pond and ate like crazy.  The LGDs milled all around and she didn't seem the least bit freaked out by them.  Seemed perfectly normal..

I was hoping that would be the end of it, but nope....next day, there she was, hanging out in the barn by herself again.  

:/

I dunno...I think I may try to work with her a little more this weekend.  Get her out with the herd early, then lead them way on to the back of the property.  If she hits a certain point -- the opening to the woods, for instance -- and balks, then maybe I'll have my answer..

We shall see..


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## warthog (Sep 1, 2010)

That sounds like a good idea.

Hope she improves, let us know how you get on.


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## bbredmom (Sep 1, 2010)

Zeus still spooks whenever he smells something burning, so I third (fourth?) the idea that maybe something bad happened to her. Do ya'll have bobcats in your area? Maybe one jumped her, but got spooked my a dog or got a horn in the gut.

Do you feed them primarily in the barn? Maybe its a food issue...but that wouldn't explain the fear.

I dunno. Goats are weird. I have a lovely new barn for mine to sleep in, and they'd rather sleep under the van.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2010)

Ok, so..  The rip in her ear turned into a little dangly thing, and I watched her flipping her ear *constantly* a few nights ago.  Began to suspect then that maybe she was thinking the dangly was a bug or something trying "git her" somehow..  

Then last night, my wife was out with her in the pasture and told me she was still just acting really weird and seemed to have a pretty wicked gash at the base of her *other* ear..  Went out there to observe, and she was still flipping the dangly -- but flipping the other ear as well.  I hadn't noticed that before, though I had noticed that she had a little crustiness over there when I first examined her.  I didn't think it was anything consequential, though.

Decided then that she needed some more work.

Got her in the stanchion, and upon further investigation, she really did have a pretty good hole at the base of the other ear...prolly 1"x3/4", and at least 1/2" deep.  It was crusty and looked like it would be really, really painful.  

She also had a really nasty looking scab on the other ear...the one with the dangly...but this scab was unrelated to the aforementioned dangly.  And the scab looked like it may be holding some infection.

Ripped it off.  Saw some cartilage and a little bit of infection.  Gross.  Iodine.

Snipped off the dangly..she didn't like that.  Iodine.

Scrubbed the gash on the other side until all the crust was gone and it was raw and angry looking...  Iodine.  Packed it with furazone..  

Biomycin, 6ml.  Fortified b-complex, as a general picker upper...6ml.  Cylence, because she was due for some and also to keep the flies away..

She was pretty royally p/o'd by the time I was done with her, and the side of her face was all bloody from the work I did...but then I gave her some grain and she ate like a pig, as usual.  

I'll continue to repack the gash with furazone at least once a day, as well as continuing the bio-mycin for probably 5 days.  

Oh...I hit her with Safe-Guard, too.  I got it in my head that she might have some kind of meningeal worm or something because she was being a 'neurtotic' weirdo..   Probably nothing, but she hadn't had it in a while anyway and I like to find some excuse to give it to each goat at least once a year...just to treat the stuff (like tapes, if there are any) that the other meds don't hit.  

We'll see.  

She's not on death's door or anything like that..  She could reduce her own intake of feed for weeks and weeks and probably come out the other side in BETTER shape than she's in now...she's way fat.  Typical boer herd queen.  Easy keeper..  Born to eat, and lets very little get in the way of doing just that.

I'll keep up on her.


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## warthog (Sep 7, 2010)

How's she doing and news?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 7, 2010)

She's still being weird.  Her wounds are healing up, so I'm less sure it's got anything to do with her physical injuries...or, at least, the physical nature of her physical injuries (like pain, fever, etc...it's not that.)

Something else I'm noticing is that she's just not really wanting to be a herd member right now.  Like, if the other goats get too close to her, she gets SUPER MAD and screams at them.  And it's this really low pitched, primal, gutteral scream.

And it's not as if they have to *do* anything to her....sometimes she does it if they get too close and crowd around her.

I dunno.  I don't get it.  

She still grazes/browses, although mostly kinda off to herself...still drinks water, still runs over to her stall for grain every night.  Still allows her own baby near her when she's out with the herd.  Still fat as a bear and slick as a whistle..

I did notice that she *may* -- and I haven't nailed this down yet -- but she *may* have a slight limp in one of her front feet.  Not sure what that would have to do with much, aside from a hesitance to climb hills and follow a herd.

Doesn't explain the anger/fear/yelling, though..


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 7, 2010)

If your goats bite each others' ears, she could be afraid she'll get bit on her already sore ears.  

Also, curious what kind of iodine you're using.  Do you mean betadine (or an iodine solution)?


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## Roll farms (Sep 7, 2010)

They say animals become like their owners over time....mebbe she's just taking after you...


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## tiffanyh (Sep 7, 2010)

I just want to throw in another idea on top of the others: although it seems you already have a good feel for the situation. 

Is it possible she is having difficulty hearing? Or even seeing? When I first read your post, I was immediately going to respond mentioning the vision thought since as a CVT, I have seen many behavioral issues manifest from something like that. They obviously rely highly on their senses so a change can really shift their behavior making them apprehensive or cautious when they normally would not be. 

Now that you have mentioned the deep ear injury, perhaps it is related to her hearing. Maybe it has been injured or she is hearing fluid or muffled sounds in comparison to normal as a result of her injury and she is reacting with apprehension that you are recognizing as behavior changes.

Just a though.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 7, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> If your goats bite each others' ears, she could be afraid she'll get bit on her already sore ears.
> 
> Also, curious what kind of iodine you're using.  Do you mean betadine (or an iodine solution)?


Could be the biting thing, I guess..  It wasn't another goat who did this to her, though, and I've never known anybody to bite this one's ears.  She's generally the tuffy of the bunch.

As for the iodine -- nope, not 'gentle 1%' and not betadine.  I use the good stuff...tincture of iodine.  As in, 7%.  The stuff that will LIGHT YOU ON FIRE and dry things up reallyreally fast..

The spots that would do well to be dry got iodine.  The one spot that was deep, where iodine would probably only irritate and make things worse...well, it also got iodine (  ), but only to disinfect, and the iodining was followed immediately by packing with furazone.

The wounds are actually looking OK, and she's not flipping her ears around as much...just being weird.



			
				Roll Farms said:
			
		

> They say animals become like their owners over time....mebbe she's just taking after you...


Could be...I, too, have been feeling more and more like abandoning the herd lately!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 7, 2010)

tiffanyh said:
			
		

> I just want to throw in another idea on top of the others: although it seems you already have a good feel for the situation.
> 
> Is it possible she is having difficulty hearing? Or even seeing? When I first read your post, I was immediately going to respond mentioning the vision thought since as a CVT, I have seen many behavioral issues manifest from something like that. They obviously rely highly on their senses so a change can really shift their behavior making them apprehensive or cautious when they normally would not be.
> 
> ...


It's a good thought, and one I've considered...but probably not enough.  And it's one I plan to investigate further, if I can figure out how..  

I know she can hear at least somewhat, because if she's elsewhere in the barn and it's time for grain, all ya gotta do is yell "Sassy!" and she comes haulin' oats right to the stall door.  She's one of the few goats we have who actually seems to know her name, and she still responds to it..

As for eyesight...I *think* that's OK, too.  I haven't noticed any blown pupils, lazy eyes, swelling, weeping, infection, ulceration -- nothing like that..  She isn't circling or stumbling, either, and she doesn't seem to have any depth perception issues..  In fact, she caused me *much grief* this weekend by persistantly walking over my water line trench, knocking dirt in each time.  

I did take that opportunity to make a mental note that her spacial orientation is good...when she stepped over with her front legs, her back legs "remembered" where the hole was and to take a little extra stride to get over it.

She seems to have her faculties...it's almost like she's just irritable as hell.

Which...when you think about what Roll said...


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> In fact, she caused me *much grief* this weekend by persistantly walking over my water line trench, knocking dirt in each time.


  They just can't resist "helping," can they?


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