# Question reg moving LGDs to different pastures



## Schatzl (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi All!

We are in the process of purchasing 60 acres "kind of" adjacent to our current sheep pasture (I will have to fence it so that I can use gates across a dirt road to move them around).  They are protected by 2 GPs.  My question is, how well do the LGDs take it when they are suddenly moved around after being in the same 20 acres for the last 2 years. Can they adjust?  I already must hotwire the whole fence, because one is a jumper.   I'm thinking that we will be bringing the sheep home to the barn each night, if that makes any difference.  I'm only into my 3rd year of having sheep (I started with 5 ewes, which have grown into 20 after two breeding seasons)  Any insights or advice is much appreciated! 

I read that us newbies are tagged as herdlurkers - ha! I will wear the title with pride!


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## Baymule (Nov 30, 2017)

60 acres is definitely bigger than 20 acres. What about setting up hot wire to make smaller pastures to contain them and give them time to adjust to the new space?. I would plan on being in the pasture with them for the first couple of days. What kind of fence is on this 60 acres and will it hold your dogs? A hot wire around it sounds like a good idea. 

Welcome to the forum!


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## Latestarter (Nov 30, 2017)

Greetings and welcome to BYH. I'd make sure the fencing on the new place was sound before moving them. From what I understand, LGDs and predominantly GPs tend believe that everything they can see is theirs to be protected and since you already know you have a jumper, without fencing and hot wire, the dog might think it's time to go check all it's new territory out... every square mile of it. Other than that, I would think they'll go where the sheep go and adjust along with them. When I moved to my place, I took mine for a walk along the fence lines a few times so he'd know the perimeter.


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## Schatzl (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you for your replies!  About 10 of the ppty is adjacent so I will fence that in first ... that way they'll see the world is a little bigger than what they've known.  The other 50 is unfenced.  I'll have to wait and see how long it takes before I can cross fence that pasture with electric fencing after the border is up.  The upside to having to put it all in myself is that I can choose exactly where I want it and make sure it's done right, the downside is, of course, it all takes time and money.  Oh well, my GP boys, aptly named *Smith* and *Wesson*, will have more room to roam soon enough!  

Since my sheep mentor is off traveling most of the time now, it is so nice to have a place to ask questions.  You'll probably be hearing from me a lot more ... thanks again!


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 30, 2017)

I am still training my GP.  In the beginning, I took them for leashed walks in the pastures (along the borders) and then I let them run free in the pastures.

They have been excellent at finding escape routes/paths.  Things I didn't see.

When the times comes to have sheep (almost there!) and goats (almost there!) they should feel comfortable in all of the pastures.

Are you able to take them for walks to the new acres now?  On leash or by your side?

Can you put in posts where the portioned off section would be to help the GP envision the new turf?


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## Baymule (Nov 30, 2017)

I wouldn't take them on the unfenced acreage. LGD's don't understand the concept of property lines on a plat. They only understand fence lines.


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## Schatzl (Dec 1, 2017)

Once the fences are up I will definitely walk the perimeter with them but they are not really the "take for a walk" kinda' dogs.  

They are very friendly, allow us and the vet to handle them and accept being locked up while I'm working with my herding dogs (3 BCs) but I haven't worried too much with them beyond that.  My dogs got "on-the-job" training ... they have been with the sheep since they were 2 months old.  At first I kept them in a separate stall, letting them out only under strict supervision so the sheep wouldn't hurt them, as they grew I would let them spend the days with the sheep and then separate them at night.  As soon as they were about as large as the sheep I opened up the stalls so they could all snuggle together (I only had 5 ewes then).  They haven't left their little world since they were small enough (and clean enough!) to both fit in the truck cab, plus I found it's a lot easier and less stressful for them to just pay the barn-call and have the vet come to them like I do for all the rest of my critters.


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## Latestarter (Dec 1, 2017)

OK then... how about this... Are your sheep "treat trained"? You know, grain in a coffee can that you shake to make noise they can hear and come running? If not, that's the first step. Get them trained to come running for treats. Next, after the fencing for the new area is in place and you're ready to open it for sheep/dog use, get that can and commence to shaking and walk the sheep around the inside perimeter. The dogs should follow along. Couple of trips around and they should all settle in nicely 

Just a thought... you really should consider getting them trained to accept a harness and get them used to being on a lead. If anything should ever happen to one of them that they need immediate vet care, where you have to get them there, you'll wish that you had introduced them to it. I and many other LGD folks here take our dogs to TSC or the farm store every so often just to make sure they get some socialization and used to vehicle trips. You never know when that might be needed. But I understand


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## BrendaMNgri (Dec 1, 2017)

Until I am blue in the face I will say it over and over again: fence your property first, not last.
Don't even try to run your dogs over there yet. And what's this road that cuts the property in half?
I assume it has vehicles on it? Traffic?  I assume you'll be perimeter fencing so the dogs can't just wander
onto that road, right????

Socialize and handle your dogs adequately enough so that you can catch them when needed. They don't
'self train' - you have to be part of this, too.

Or pay for it later.

Good post @Latestarter .


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2017)

Schatzl said:


> About 10 of the ppty is adjacent so I will fence that in first ... that way they'll see the world is a little bigger than what they've known.


Since it has already been established that you will be doing the fencing first the test is more about knowing your dogs.
Typically the livestock have a harder time adjusting, sheep tend to not care as much, nor meatgoats... dairy goats are a different animal altogether. 
If they have lived their whole life in one area and are not use to being moved about. Just a heads up- in cases like this we see parasitic blooms that go un-noticed. Just watch for that. We have clients that move their animals twice a year... have identical barns in each field, the field is divided by a path for the tractor to get through... each time they move them they end up with a bloom. So your initial move may cause this... once it becomes routine you shouldn't have issues with it. 

As far as the dogs go some LGD's are very territory oriented and don't cope being moved to a new field, however they will adjust but these are the types you may want to make sure you are around that weekend.  A good stable LGD will have no issues with the transition.  They will soon learn your routine of going back and forth. Hopefully you will have some kind of lean to, shed roof something for sudden severe weather. Not sure- some sheep want shelter some could care less... 


Schatzl said:


> They are very friendly, allow us and the vet to handle them and accept being locked up while I'm working with my herding dogs (3 BCs) but I haven't worried too much with them beyond that. My dogs got "on-the-job" training ... they have been with the sheep since they were 2 months old. At first I kept them in a separate stall, letting them out only under strict supervision so the sheep wouldn't hurt them, as they grew I would let them spend the days with the sheep and then separate them at night. As soon as they were about as large as the sheep I opened up the stalls so they could all snuggle together (I only had 5 ewes then)


  good for you! Glad you were wise in protecting them as tiny pups! So sad how many do not do this and the 8 week old pup gets killed.



Schatzl said:


> They haven't left their little world since they were small enough (and clean enough!) to both fit in the truck cab, plus I found it's a lot easier and less stressful for them to just pay the barn-call and have the vet come to them like I do for all the rest of my critters.


Being able to have your dog jump in the truck or car is very important. 
If your dogs trust you they will do this easily and no real need to go places here and there with them.
We generally have vets come too... but when there is an emergency and we have to take the dogs in... that is where it counts.


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## Baymule (Dec 1, 2017)

My sheep will follow me and a red Folgers coffee can  anywhere. I shriek SHEEP! SHEEP! SHEEP! and they come running like a stampede. I have pastures that open up into the general yard area and driveway of the house. I just open the gate of the pasture I want to move them to, shaking that bodacious red coffee can. I pour a little feed for them and then go open the gate to the pasture they are in. They get to the other pasture before I do, I just close the gate. 

We took our male GP to Tractor Supply when he was a pup. He loads up just fine. Our female was almost a year old and somewhat weird, but she overcame and she also will load up in the back seat. 

Something about that treat aisle at TSC.......


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 1, 2017)

I've never had an issue moving my dogs to another field


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## Schatzl (Dec 1, 2017)

Thank you, Southern by Choice for reading my posts and giving real advice. 

My GPs are very easy going and they trust us.  I can't imagine not being able to transport them if they are in such a state that I'd have to rush them to the vets - it might not be pretty but it would happen!   We did work with them on leashes when they were young but over time, well, yeah, well, maybe I'll regret it one day and if I do, I will confess it right here on BYH.  



Southern by choice said:


> in cases like this we see parasitic blooms that go un-noticed.



Interesting about the parasite bloom - would that hold true if the land hasn't had any sort of livestock on it for 15 years?  or is that due to stress?  Either way, I'll keep my eye out.



Southern by choice said:


> Hopefully you will have some kind of lean to, shed roof something for sudden severe weather. Not sure- some sheep want shelter some could care less...



Severe weather *does* happen here in Oklahoma for sure!  The 10 new acres I will be fencing in first will be connected to the new barn we are building so that's no issue.  When they go to the other 50 I will be moving several smaller shelters over there since the barn (when it's finished) will be available to them in the original pasture  ... which will be long before we get that other 50 fenced!  We have a full-time ranch hand that lives up there as well so if it looks like bad weather he will either bring them back over or just keep them near the barn.


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## Schatzl (Dec 1, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> Until I am blue in the face I will say it over and over again: fence your property first, not last.
> Don't even try to run your dogs over there yet. And what's this road that cuts the property in half?
> I assume it has vehicles on it? Traffic?  I assume you'll be perimeter fencing so the dogs can't just wander
> onto that road, right????
> ...



Wow, BrendaMNgri.  I really don't know what to say.  You have reacted very strongly.  I've really debated on whether or not I should reply because simply put, your response has me rather upset.  But I have decided to discuss what you have written just so that there are no misunderstandings between us.

1.  I never said nor intended to take my dogs or livestock to the acreage before it is fenced.  My original post only asked for input on what to expect once I am ready to do it.  I just was unsure of how my dogs would take it being moved around.

2. The road that runs through it is an Oklahoma red dirt road that we share with three of our neighbors.  It is small with very little traffic.  I own 20 acres on the E side and am purchasing an additional 10 acres adjacent to that 20.  Across the road on the W side is another 50 we are buying.  When I fence that 50 I will put gates across from each other on both the E and W sides.  We will then use movable corral panels to create a corridor for the sheep to move across the road. 

3.  My dogs are completely socialized and are loving, well-mannered boys who allow us to handle and vet them with absolutely no problems.  The only thing I said was something like, "they are not the walk on the leash kind of dogs"  

4.  As far as them not "self training" themselves, yes, I am aware of that.  We taught them manners, we taught them to go quietly to their stall when I'm herding with my border collies, we've taught them to allow us to handle their ears, mouths and feet and to lay down.  But these dogs don't need to be trained to protect the sheep, they do that by instinct and they have done a perfect job of it with no complaints on my part.  

So, I hope that alleviates some of your concerns.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2017)

Aww, your welcome. 


Schatzl said:


> My GPs are very easy going and they trust us. I can't imagine not being able to transport them if they are in such a state that I'd have to rush them to the vets - it might not be pretty but it would happen! We did work with them on leashes when they were young but over time, well, yeah, well, maybe I'll regret it one day and if I do, I will confess it right here on BYH.


It really sounds like you have done a good job with your dogs. You are right, when young often dogs get taught but over time they do their jbs and so there isn't much need, especially when the vets come out.
All our dogs have been on leads, some have been involved with therapy work, some we take out for examples of stable LGD's so people understand they aren't vicious dogs- IOW some of our dogs do get out and about- others don't,  so similar to you there hasn't been much need for anything else with some. We had an emergency with one of our boys, he was about 2-2 1/2... he doesn't like leaving his goats for anything. We put a lead on him, walked up into the 15 passenger van, he was hesitant for a second then jumped in. He did fine on the drive, but between his injuries,pain, and never having been in a moving vehicle he seemed a little unsteady on his feet. He should have just lay down. Went straight into the vets, surgery room at that, total stranger and yet he let her shave him, clean him up, deal with the punctures etc... I honestly thought he may need to be sedated... he did great. As you can see, on this group there are a lot of very dedicated people and they love their dogs that is why they all have success! 


Schatzl said:


> Interesting about the parasite bloom - would that hold true if the land hasn't had any sort of livestock on it for 15 years? or is that due to stress?


It isn't the land, it is the parasites already living in your sheep.  All sheep and goats have some parasites, it is the stress of the move that can cause this. Most people would expect a bloom if they brought in livestock, or they shipped some out... the thing is even on your farm when they have been in one area that they know and have never moved this can happen. Shoot, it happened to us this year. We had a whole herd of bucks that left so we took a whole other group from another field and moved them. We were ready for it, but still, ugh we did have to deworm. 

It sounds very exciting with your expansion! 
I wish I had that much land... then our dairy goats would probably start crying if they couldn't see the house.


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## Schatzl (Dec 1, 2017)

Baymule said:


> My sheep will follow me and a red Folgers coffee can  anywhere.



Yes, my girls are *VERY* food driven!  And I probably have the same red Folgers can in my feed tub!  Anyways, I'm sure once they know where they are supposed to go across the dirt road to the new field I probably won't need to put up a corridor of fence panels, but until they do, I'll feel safer.  I have this horrible image of them taking off down the road to the great unknown!

We have a new TSC just 10 miles down the road ... very handy to have it so close!!  But I'm still not going to be taking my GPs for any joy rides   Okay, maybe I could stand it now in the winter when they are clean, but during the summer they LOVE to wallow in the mud .... and with our red dirt they are distinctly PINK from the withers down April to October!!  And, of course, they smell to high heaven!




OneFineAcre said:


> I've never had an issue moving my dogs to another field



That's good to know.  I figured with people rotating pastures and all it must be possible.


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## babsbag (Dec 1, 2017)

I have 4 LGDs and my oldest is the fence tester and she leads all her "friends" right on out the hole. The only time that I have had problems with her is when I opened a new pasture. The goats made me lead them, they were afraid, but not my girl. She was off and running and within 10 minutes found a space under the fence that was no doubt a coyote path and she decided that she needed to see where they were going. I had to fix that and run a row of hotwire about 6" off of the ground.

Fast forward 3 years and we bought some adjoining land. Fenced it like Fort Knox, but not Fort Knox for dogs. Again, she found a space under the fence and showed up on my porch. This time it took me watching and waiting for her to escape to find her path. The weeds were tall and I couldn't see the gap but she found it in about 5 minutes of being on the new land. So I spent the next 4 days inspecting every inch of the fence and filling in gaps, our land is not level at all, and again, added the hot wire to the bottom. Now that she has been on the property for about 8 months she doesn't test the boundary, the hot wire isn't even working at the moment (don't tell her  )

I'm not sure what it is about new property that makes her want to escape but that seems to be the case.


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## Schatzl (Dec 2, 2017)

THAT is going to be Smith (he's my jumper).  We have to put all the fence up so, while it will take time before it's done, at least I'll know it's done right, and hopefully escape proof!  But even when he did get over, he stayed close.  He doesn't run away but there are an awful lot of pit bulls in our "neck of the woods" and THAT does make me nervous :/


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## BrendaMNgri (Dec 2, 2017)

@Schatzl  I've been doing this a long, long time…I get frustrated (and yes often it shows) with people when they present situations as one way, then come back in and fill in the details later and oh, gee…..wait, now you're saying this…um...okay…that changes the whole thing….uh…..might have not said what I did if you'd been more forthcoming….

And not just singling you out for this so don't take it personally. "Oh…NOW you tell us…." is a common "happening" on this forum. A poster comes in, puts out a scenario, then it changes faster than you can keep up with. I KNOW I'm not alone when I often mumble over some threads, "Well, why didn't they say that to begin with?" I probably would not have bothered to even post.

I come out of a commercial cattle ranching history, and I'm 62 (do the math) and lived through the final "glory days" of big cow outfits in N. Nevada and the Great Basin. It was a hard, tough life that ate up people who didn't learn quick enough and you got tough or died, basically. There was no kid glove treatment. You owned up to the responsibilities involved with livestock, dogs, ranch, cowboying, fencing, what ever…you learned from your elders and didn't flinch when they boxed your ears, either, because they were the ones passing on the old ways down to the newbies. You paid dues and didn't mind it. The viejos were often short of temper, rude, cranky and mean but they meant and taught well, if a guy could grow some thick skin and take some ribbing - it was always worth it because a valuable lesson was at hand. Sugar coated with a cushy delivery and hand holding? No. But valuable advice.

To quote one old timer, years my senior: _"$200 a month and $250 for riding the rough string. Nobody talked to the kid in the outfit. Back then you better be tough or get to irrigating…"_

I read your details that you added later, and you seem to be aware of what you need to do. So….good luck to you.


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## BrendaMNgri (Dec 2, 2017)

@Baymule  PS my sheep come when called too. I also bell them. So I know where they are. I make a trilling noise, and they know mom's got some grain or feed. Here they come...


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## Southern by choice (Dec 2, 2017)

Hmmm... this is the first sentences of the first post... (I read this as the fencing is going up BEFORE they are moved.)



Schatzl said:


> Hi All!
> 
> We are in the process of purchasing 60 acres "kind of" adjacent to our current sheep pasture (I will have to fence it so that I can use gates across a dirt road to move them around).


4th sentence mentions hotwire.
2nd post by OP gives a bit more detail of how they are fencing it.


The OP's question was
"My question is, how well do the LGDs take it when they are suddenly moved around after being in the same 20 acres for the last 2 years. Can they adjust?"


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 2, 2017)

@Schatzl
Some of us actually read and comprehended what you wrote so I wouldn't worry to much about the comments of those who did not 
Good luck with the new property
My family has worked with dogs for literally generations and LGDs are really some of the easiest to work with
They are only a mystery on the internet


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 2, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Hmmm... this is the first sentences of the first post... (I read this as the fencing is going up BEFORE they are moved.)
> 
> 
> 4th sentence mentions hotwire.
> ...


I read the same thing too


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## Baymule (Dec 2, 2017)

My male GP jumped out one time. For weeks afterward I walked him up and down the fence line, grabbing the fence between T-posts and scolding him. He squints his eyes and grins when he is in trouble, it is hard not to laugh. He has not jumped out since. He jumps interior fences, that's ok.


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## Mike CHS (Dec 2, 2017)

I continue to be amazed at how much these dogs are aware  of everything and adapt pretty easy.  Whenever I move temp fencing my GP will go along the fence like she is looking for holes and the sheep will come in a few minutes later.


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