# Considering an LGD and have some questions



## Pearce Pastures (Nov 6, 2012)

I am starting to really consider LGD shopping and have a few questions for those that have bought/adopted and raised them before

So far, and correct if I am wrong, here is what I think I should be looking for so far after reading up on this. I should look to get a male and a female pup, from different litters, to raise together.  They should be fixed, and it sounds like getting their dewclaws removed is in order to prevent later issues.

1)  I have been getting a feel for where I might get a two pups.  I have two routes that I see---I could find a few breeders or I could adopt from a pup from one of the many shelters in my state.  I have found several Pyrenees and Anatolian pups through Petfinder, and I am fond of using shelters.  I do see that many recommend a breeder and I am wondering if anyone could give me some insight into making this first choice.

2) How young of a pup should I be looking to get?  I have the patience and am willing to spend the time to train these, but I do not want to attempt to train-out bad habits---how old is too old then?

3)If I begin to actually go visit animals, what do you look for in regards to health and temperament in a pup?  For example, when we selected our mix breed, we noted that she was less jumpy, was quiet, and did not seem to play bite much.  But she is a pet and not a working animal so I am not sure what I should be looking to observe in a potential LGD.

4) And it does seem that the GP and Anatolian come up quite a bit as good LGDs.  Do you have a preference for one over the other and why? 

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/24559556


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## B'Orion Farms (Nov 6, 2012)

I'm no expert, but did a LOT of research and such before I got my LGD GP puppy.  I almost adopted a 4 year old, but it would have been too expensive to go get her.  She was already trained and living with goats and chickens.  She was located on the border of Arkansas and OK and is very likely still available if you're interested.   I got my puppy from a breeder that raises only LGD's and only paid $100.  She's purebred but not papered.  I got her at 7 weeks.  She is now almost 6 months old.  I know I should have gotten two, but didn't.  I did lose two chickens from her "playing" with them, so no more free ranging chickens unless I am there to supervise.  She's been pretty easy to train, but you know that if you get puppies, you'll have to closely supervise for at least a year, at least.  Hope this helps



			
				Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> I am starting to really consider LGD shopping and have a few questions for those that have bought/adopted and raised them before
> 
> So far, and correct if I am wrong, here is what I think I should be looking for so far after reading up on this. I should look to get a male and a female pup, from different litters, to raise together.  They should be fixed, and it sounds like getting their dewclaws removed is in order to prevent later issues.
> 
> ...


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 6, 2012)

Yes, I would recommend two dogs too. They always work better that way and won't destroy things do to being bored. 
Yes, different litters for sure.
Yes, one of each sex is good too.
Fixing them is debatable. It depends on your situation and your future plans.

1. I really am not a huge shelter person. I highly recommend finding a farm that raises them and get them from a farm, not from a shelter. Shelters are too iffy as far as that goes.

2. There are pros and cons to a pup or an older dog. If you need one now then a bigger dog is best of course. If you can it may be better to get a younger one so you can teach your ways. You also have poultry so that may play a part in your choosing.

3. Honestly I really can't help a ton there. Southern may be able to help though. She would be best to talk to there.
I chose Callie because she came over to me and fallowed while all the other pups ran away so I wasn't really able to look at the others. lol I did get ahold of one tough and when I grabbed her she screamed. I set he down, picked her up, she screamed. Anytime someone picked her up she screamed and wanted to run away. That is a no go for me.

4. Oh boy.  I love my Anatolian and they will always be my first choice. I do have to say that I got it in my head that that is what I wanted long before I ever had one. That plays a part. Honestly though, imo ALL LGD breeds will do a great dog and will excel at it. I love my Anatolian and I love the Pyrs. I would only recommend one over the other depending on your situation. The temperament is different with the dogs (in some cases) and for one you may want a male but for the other a female. It all depends on what you are looking for in the LGD. 

btw I really want to get an Akbash one day. I think they are really neat. Well and the Kengal, and the Maremma, and the Tibetan Mastiff. Those are all my favorites. haha


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## CocoNUT (Nov 6, 2012)

Two dogs! (If you can swing it!)

I agree with Straw on the shelter pups. Although they need loving homes...when working with livestock (& poultry)...you want to KNOW their background and exposures. You want pups from working parents...or pretty darned close if you can. For temperment, KNOWING (for sure) the breed and background of the animal helps tremendously! I've grown up with mutts all my life (except ONE dalmation - YUCK!) and they're wonderful dogs. Until we got our Shar, I didn't realize how 'bred in' some of the tendencies of "known" breeds can be! She has a great and steady temperment, and a natural talent for her job. Training is needed, but EASIER due to her natural inclinations. All dogs are smart and capable of being LGDs...there are MANY people here who can attest to that; however, if you want a KNOWN result...getting dogs/puppies with KNOWN histories and exposures makes training easier. It would be a greater challenge to deal with turning someone's "house Pyr" into an outside LGD - and a LOT of rescues REQUIRE they be INDOOR dogs (trust me, I've been looking!). Nevermind if the dog has been abused, neglected, underfed, never trained, etc.

Before our dog, I never really understood why people were so obsessed with "pure breed" dogs/cats etc. Especially if they're just pets - with no specific 'job' other than love! Now that I have a dog breed that was bred for a purpose...and I use her for that....I wouldn't want anything else! And like most LGD partners (they own you...more than you own them)...I have a GREAT respect for the breeds...especially mine....and a great LOYALTY towards them as well. I would love to rescue a few...however...I would do it with the understanding that they would not necessarily be 'rescued' to work for me....

Good luck!


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 6, 2012)

CocoNUT said:
			
		

> Two dogs! (If you can swing it!)
> 
> I agree with Straw on the shelter pups. Although they need loving homes...when working with livestock (& poultry)...you want to KNOW their background and exposures. You want pups from working parents...or pretty darned close if you can. For temperment, KNOWING (for sure) the breed and background of the animal helps tremendously! I've grown up with mutts all my life (except ONE dalmation - YUCK!) and they're wonderful dogs. Until we got our Shar, I didn't realize how 'bred in' some of the tendencies of "known" breeds can be! She has a great and steady temperment, and a natural talent for her job. Training is needed, but EASIER due to her natural inclinations. All dogs are smart and capable of being LGDs...there are MANY people here who can attest to that; however, if you want a KNOWN result...getting dogs/puppies with KNOWN histories and exposures makes training easier. It would be a greater challenge to deal with turning someone's "house Pyr" into an outside LGD - and a LOT of rescues REQUIRE they be INDOOR dogs (trust me, I've been looking!). Nevermind if the dog has been abused, neglected, underfed, never trained, etc.
> 
> ...


Well said. I agree completely.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 6, 2012)

A messed up LGD is a dangerous dog and will not be a LGD.

I just posted under coofee cow's post you might want to take a look.

Also, no you do not remove the dewclaws. Spay/neuter well, I'll pm you on that one when I get a chance. There is a great deal more you should know about the process. M/F age etc. Most of the general public have no idea physiological consequences in spaying. I'm not against spaying by the way. Just the wreckless way it is done and has been promoted at the expense of the bitch.

2 dogs- different litters -YES

I love the Kuvasz, Kangal, Anatolian, and yes   PYRS     
Tibetan Mastiffs as working dogs are hard to find in the states and honestly I just don't think most people can handle them. I have had experience with the anatolian and Tibetan Mastiff, Kuvasz. But I own Pyrs, and "Callie" lives here too!


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## EllieMay (Nov 6, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> CocoNUT said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*x2*  

I agree!
I was able to get two pups (Grt Pyrs) from a breeder who raises chickens and sheep, and then a bit later I got my Kangals from another breeder who raises sheep and cattle. They all came from working farms with parents onsite.
I'm so glad I went that route (as opposed to shelters) because I now have awesome working guardian dogs. 
I have always felt people should support the local animal shelters, but when it comes to getting a dog for a "purpose," the shelters will not be your best bet.
It'll be hit or miss that a shelter dog will do what you want (and mostly miss).
A dog from a farm with working parents is what you would be looking for.
If you're looking at puppies, you don't want one that is timid and shy and hides in the corner.
Obviously, you'll look for any signs of illness as well.
It doesn't really matter male/female; although most prefer one or the other.
I prefer males since they tend to grow larger and seem to bond stronger. (that's my opinion)
You will invest a lot of time in training; and the training will mostly consist of watching and discouraging behaviour that you do not want on your farm.
For instance, I have chickens, so I had to discourage my dogs (when they were pups) from playing or chasing chickens.
If I had no chickens, I would not discourage them from chasing birds.
It's a journey that you will enjoy.
And the rewards are priceless; it's a wonderful feeling to allow your herds to roam through their pastures and not have to worry about them at all being killed by a predator.
Good luck!!


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Nov 6, 2012)

Some are saying, "do not get litter mates."

Why would that be?  Just curious.


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## redtailgal (Nov 6, 2012)

While I am not speaking for anyone in particular, I have heard it said that litter mates are more prone to be aggressive with one another.

I have never seen anything to back that up.  In fact, I have worked with and trained litter mates several time (not in an LGD setting, though), and never seen any more aggression than with non litter mates.

I wonder if this litter mate aggression is the train of thought here.  If so, I'm curious to hear of the EXPERIENCES (not theory) of others that have dealt with it.


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## EllieMay (Nov 6, 2012)

I DID buy littermates and have absolutely NO problems.
I liked the fact that they were littermates because they were already comfortable with each other and not have any issues with dominance.
When I introduced them to the livestock, they seemed to grow apart being more interested in different roles.
One dog enjoyed being upclose and personal with the livestock (licking and cleaning and sleeping with the livestock).
The other dog seemed to enjoy patroling the perimeter of the fence more often.
They're both awesome dogs and have developed their own guardian techniques.


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## terrilhb (Nov 6, 2012)

EllieMay said:
			
		

> I DID buy littermates and have absolutely NO problems.
> I liked the fact that they were littermates because they were already comfortable with each other and not have any issues with dominance.
> When I introduced them to the livestock, they seemed to grow apart being more interested in different roles.
> One dog enjoyed being upclose and personal with the livestock (licking and cleaning and sleeping with the livestock).
> ...


This is my 2 dogs. One loves to lick the behinds and the other is always on patrol. I love to see them together and the difference in them. But yet still alike. If that makes any sense.


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## bonbean01 (Nov 6, 2012)

I have never had an LGD...but my brother got one for his cattle and llamas and he got one about a year old from an animal shelter...knew no background on him...well...that dog was brought to the shelter for a reason.  That dog first killed their pet dog...all cats...and when they came home one day from town...their prize Llama was hamstrung and in really horrible shape...huge vet bills.  I was grateful that my nephews and neices were not attacked.  He called the shelter to warn them of the siblings of this dog and they told him to bring him back...yeah...right...he shot that dog while it was still attacking his Llama.

I'm all for the whole shelter thing, but with an LGD that you want in with your animals...I would think hard on the risk you are taking.

Just my two cents worth.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 6, 2012)

Bon you are so right. There are LGD's at some of the rescue places that ARE truly great working dogs. The problem that arises is that the "new" owners forget that the dog was used to guarding ITS animals. It takes time for the dog to know and understand that these new animals are his to guard. They need to be by but not in with them for awhile. You can't just throw them in with whatever and think great now my herd is protected. 

Straws dog is ultra possessive of Moses, that's her buck! When Moses was in with the girls she was ok til Alana(Doe) was brought in. Alana was a dork and decided to mount Moses and they were going round and round, Callie was freaking out trying to get Alana from Moses. Yet she knew not to attack Alana. Straw had to keep telling her it's ok. Callie and D are now in with the big girls and Moses and doing okay. We will see how it goes tonight though, I'm moving Callie up front with my ND does. D will go anywhere because I've always moved him. He has always been rotated and knows all the goats and fields. I strongly recommend that.


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## Roll farms (Nov 6, 2012)

We tried a pyr from a rescue group.  
They brought it here to meet us and it bit me when I got too close to the rescue lady...it was 'guarding' her.  I gave up on rescuing one and raised our first from a pup instead.

I agree w/ RTG on the sibling thing....I don't think a bro / sis pair would be more prone to fight than unrelated animals...but don't have any experience w/ sibs, all of ours have been unrelated w/ the exception of Gus and Edge (mother and son) and they get along fine.


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## babsbag (Nov 7, 2012)

My LGDs are not related but my border collies are. Everyone told me not to get siblings as they would bond with each other and not with me. While we joke that they are joined at the hip, they are very much bonded with me and my husband. They don't fight, never, ever. I have had non siblings fight more than they do.

As far as LGD breeds...my pyr/maremma male barks at everything, I swear, even the wind 

My female is a mix of several breeds, one being anatolian and when she barks I listen. She only barks when there is a threat.

Many of my friends that own LGDs they say that pyrs are "barkey" and like to roam if they don't have good fences. We have a hot wire so no roaming at our place.

I wouldn't do a  shelter dog. Many of these dogs are raised with no human contact and can't be handled. I wanted to make sure my dogs were safe for me and for other people that come with me into the barn area. I wanted to be able to mold them the way I wanted them. Also since I have poultry I needed dogs I could train to leave the birds and figured that a pup would be easier to train.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 7, 2012)

The sibling issue is more about autonomy.  M/M or F/F  siblings that have always been together with no separation from anytime after birth forward do tend to have more issues with rivalry and dominance, and sometimes you end up with one ultra dominant and one ultra passive. This leads to issue when a team is necessary and also the challenges between dogs can continue indefinately. Each dog , especially an LGD needs to have that autonomy. So that it's confidence and ability can reach it's maximum potential. Non- LGD's, pets per se the issue is different, it's more about bonding with the owners, or "it's" people.  

 Are there many out there who've had sibs and had no problems? Sure, but often there are problems that they have had that they would not have had they not had sibs, often people just don't conect it. There are many articles written on the subject. Ultimately I think on this forum there are more  people that have good animal sense and can work through some of the issues. My two Pyr boys are from the same litter, but bought at different times. Raised separate, in different fields but brought together (all 6 dogs) just about daily for some playtime. I will not have dogs that fight with each other . PERIOD! The two boys are very different. I still don't recommend it, but I'm not going to be hostile about either.

 I think everyone sharing their experiences can be very helpful to a new soon to be LGD owner. Hopefully it's not so much info as to bring confusion.  Not everyone shares the same experiences and I've noticed that on BHY pretty much the threads that get out of hand and always get shut down are about LGD's.  

Babsbag's experience is the opposite of mine...3 pyrs ONLY bark when nec, and do not go on and on, the Anatolian NEVER shuts up! Our neighbor came by yesterday and said you think you could move the one who barks for 3-4 hrs on end up front? I f she sees the neighbor way through the woods she will bark but she won't stop. I swear she barks at the wind.  The wife of the breeder of the anatolian told us "they bark all night and never shut up". She wasn't kidding! My pyr breeder's dogs are not "barkers".  I do know others who say their pyrs don't shut up. Different dogs different breeders different experiences.

While I was typing the above paragragh, I had to stop and run out because one of our rogue Russian Orloffs who must be on a nest, because she wasn't in the coop, needed to be retrieved from Callie's (anatolian) mouth. Yep, chicken's dead. I no longer have a breeding trio, now just a pair. NICE, REAL FLIPPIN NICE!

 We really can glean from each other.  Lately it seems if people are not agreeing it becomes a battle, almost as if the reading of a post is filtering through some wierd defensiveness. It is hard to sometimes convey the tone you intend through words on a page. 

btw- "D" is on my couch, he DID NOT kill the chicken, he is a good boy. He is snoring now!


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## EllieMay (Nov 7, 2012)

babsbag said:
			
		

> My LGDs are not related but my border collies are. Everyone told me not to get siblings as they would bond with each other and not with me. While we joke that they are joined at the hip, they are very much bonded with me and my husband. They don't fight, never, ever. I have had non siblings fight more than they do.  *As far as LGD breeds...my pyr/maremma male barks at everything, I swear, even the wind   My female is a mix of several breeds, one being anatolian and when she barks I listen. She only barks when there is a threat.
> Many of my friends that own LGDs they say that pyrs are "barkey" and like to roam if they don't have good fences. We have a hot wire so no roaming at our place. *


This has been my experience with the Pyrs and the Kangals (which are similar to the Anatolians).
My Pyrs bark at EVERYTHING.  A leaf falls from the tree and they'll bark.
I got them because they BARK since I want to know if there is _anything _out there.
And it's true that Pyrs love to roam. We had to put up fencing sooner than expected to keep them on our property.
My Kangals don't roam much and will ony bark if there is a real threat.
My Kangals will also KILL anything that comes too close.
I got them because they will kill. 
For me having the two breeds works out perfect.


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## Pearce Pastures (Nov 7, 2012)

You are all so helpful and I can't thank you enough for sharing your experiences and knowledge with me.  I am still researching and want to be fully prepared before getting any pups but I have a much better idea of what I want now...

I am going to go for Great Pyrenees from a reputable breeder.  If I _were _to ever consider a shelter, they would have to be young pups, but I don't think I will do that because I want to know the temperament and health of the parents (I won't ever adopt an adult dog from a shelter---just have had too many friends have bad experiences, so sorry if that offends anyone but to each his own).  Further, in looking at shelter sites, I noticed that some seem to be calling adoptable dogs Great Pyrenees but they clearly are mixed breed so I am abandoning that idea and going for looking into breeders.

I will look to get a male and female still, but I can't decide if it will be at the exact same time though.  Getting them together seems to have some benefits since they would be getting trained at the same time, but having some time lapse between getting them would let me spend more one-on-one time with them when they are young.  That will also allow me time to find either a pup from another litter or give litter-mates a chance to have some separation time but those who say no siblings and those who say there could be a dominance issue have good points.  I am slow to make decisions like getting an animal so I will keep researching that one too.

We have a fence and I am planning to install hotwire this Spring so we can use more of our property for the goats.  Thanks for the clarifying the dewclaws thing too.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Nov 7, 2012)

Thank you to those who answered the question in regards to litter mates.  


We have two litter mates and granted, they are only 7 months old.  But they are fabulous with strong working instincts and fighting definitely hasn't been an issue.  I am very glad that we got them together.  They are a great team already.

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.


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## babsbag (Nov 7, 2012)

I think that maybe one reason my pyr barks at everything is that he tends to be a little scared of things and that is his way of trying to be brave. He bluffs a lot. 

The female is more self-assured and I don't think she feels the need to bark at things that don't threaten her.


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## poorboys (Nov 8, 2012)

I've been breeding prys for several year's now, We do have to keep an eye on our dogs declaws, Every 3 months we check them to make sure they are not growing back into the paw. Some prys have a tear stain problem with their eyes. It's not a big problem just something they are prone to, and you can just clean it up with medicated pads. I haven't seen much difference in personalities from one being fixed or not. It's wether you want puppies or not. They do need boundaries, Ours are fenced in all the time, and they know if a gate is open they won't cross it. When we first moved to our new place one of the goats and giggled the door open to the barn and everyone got out. But luckly are dogs kept them all herded around the barn area and when we opened the fence everyone went back in. I would say my male is the leader as far as running out when he see's something, The alpha female waits for his second alarm and runs out with him, as the goats are coming back up to the barn. It is amazing to watch them work. They are very protective of their owners, but have never seen one of mine get agressive with strangers. Last litter I had, 3 of the puppies got out of their small pasture in with the bigger goats, it took all three of them but they herded one of my goats, it was funnny how they knew., My male does bark alot, he won't even let a bird land in the pasture he is very sure of himself that nothing will come in with-out him knowing. My females are back-ups, and one is in a pasture with the smaller goats, althou I would never put a pup 3 to 7months old in with the younger ones, because of the play nature, and that is why most people do pairs, for the boredom part. best to get your pry from one who raises it from the get-go around farm animals.


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## bonbean01 (Nov 8, 2012)

Wow poorboys...neat dogs!


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