# Problems with birthing this year



## ewellons (Feb 20, 2020)

I can't wait for this lambing season to be finished!  I have lost 11 lambs and two ewes!!  The vet is unsure what is going on and feels it may be the ram that we used this year who has been on our farm but just used him this year.  The ewes would go down in the hind quarters and just get gradually weaker.  One delivered three dead lambs and then three days later died also.  The same with the second ewe.  After reading everything I was guessing pregnancy toxemia so with the second ewe I tried the glucose drench, the vitamin B12 and the CMPK but nothing worked for her.  I then go out one morning and one of the other ewes delivered a set of twins with out and problem?!?  Another ewe who is the oldest in the flock and was not supposed to be bred ended up delivering 4 dead smelly lambs???  She did need help due to two of them being breech.  As if that hasn't been enough, I then have another ewe go down same symptoms as the first two.  I called the vet again and this time decide just to due a c section.  She did have two good size lambs but unfortunately both of those died also.  The good news is that the ewe who had the c section is doing good but then I had another ewe deliver triplets, two ram lambs and one ewe lamb.  This ewe had no problems with delivery but the runt ram lamb did pass away.  Now my problem is that the two remaining lambs just don't seem to be thriving?  The ram lamb wont put any weight on his right rear quarter for the past two days and the ewe lamb is starting to do the same thing.   My vet is out of town for a couple of days and I have already given them both V-B12....any other suggestions?   I have one more ewe to deliver and pray every day that I will be going out to the barn and see her with some healthy lambs!!   We have raised sheep for 16 years and have NEVER had problems like this...could it be the ram?  I am really second guessing breeding any more sheep!


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## Jesusfreak101 (Feb 20, 2020)

@Baymule @Mike CHS  hopefully yall have some ideas?


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## Baymule (Feb 20, 2020)

Oh no! I have never had anything like that happen either. I am thinking it must be some type of infection. I thought it might be a mineral deficiency, but you have raised sheep there for 16 years, a mineral deficiency would have shown up before now.

You mention the ram. Did you raise him or buy him? Has he been tested for infectious disease? 

Has anything changed? Feed? hay?  A lot of rain, a lack of rain? 



			https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-9614.pdf
		


this link mentions hypocalcaemia, lack of calcium. I keep dolomite lime out for my girls. I get it at Lowes in the garden center. 






						Pregnancy toxaemia and hypocalcaemia of ewes | Agriculture and Food
					

Pregnancy toxaemia and hypocalcaemia affect lambing ewe flocks and have similar signs but different causes. As pregnancy toxaemia and hypocalcaemia require different treatments, it is important to be able to understand, recognise and prevent both of these diseases in lambing ewe flocks. Both...




					www.agric.wa.gov.au
				




This link is from the UK, but has a lot of information









						NADIS Animal Health Skills - Abortion in Ewes
					

NADIS is a unique online based animal health resource for farmers, vets and SQPs. The information is written by veterinary experts, peer-reviewed and presented in a practical format with a high visual clinical content to improve disease awareness and highlight disease prevention.



					www.nadis.org.uk
				




Everything I am reading suggests a disease organism. I would get the ewes tested and retain fetal samples for testing. Please follow good hygiene as some of these are transmissible to humans.

Please follow up with this and let us know what is happening. 

I thought about Brucellosis. 






						USDA APHIS | Brucellosis
					






					www.aphis.usda.gov


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## ewellons (Feb 20, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Oh no! I have never had anything like that happen either. I am thinking it must be some type of infection. I thought it might be a mineral deficiency, but you have raised sheep there for 16 years, a mineral deficiency would have shown up before now.
> 
> You mention the ram. Did you raise him or buy him? Has he been tested for infectious disease?
> 
> ...


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## ewellons (Feb 20, 2020)

We had alot of rain last spring?   The ram we did raise ourselves. We have not brought any new sheep for the past two years.  The hay is from our farm and my brother has been feeding it to his cattle and goats without any problems.


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## Baymule (Feb 20, 2020)

These articles also mention cats, rodents, wild birds as vectors for spreading disease. You definitely need to have the lambs tested and the ewes too so you can find out what this is. You have had sheep a lot longer than me, I could learn from YOU. I am trying to provide support for you in this trying time and throw out ideas, but I believe only testing will give you the answers you need. Big hugs, you sure need it


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## ewellons (Feb 20, 2020)

Thank you @Baymule .  I have read the articles which are very interesting .  We do have cats and unfortunately we have a lot of rodents that are around also.  I thank  you for your support and will be talking with the Vet to get them tested.  I love my sheep but this has just been very frustrating year!


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## Ridgetop (Feb 20, 2020)

How is your selenium level?  Are the ewes getting enough of it?  We used to give our does and ewes a booster shot of selenium a couple weeks before they gave birth.  If you don't have a lot of selenium in your pasture or hay, you might consider having the vet give the remaining ewes and lambs a shot of that.  Lack of selenium causes floppy lamb disease - loss of control of limbs and weakness.

If the lambs were all dying, it could be something wrong with the ram, but being bred to that ram shouldn't be causing the ewes to go down and die.  Since you raised the ram yourself rom your own stock, he probably doesn't have any disease that he brought to your farm.  Sheep can contract a type of syphilis which might cause problems to the moms and lambs. 

Brucellosis is another disease that causes abortion in lambs.  Usually they abort sooner than full term though - about midway through their pregnancy - at 3 months maybe.  If the ram was not tested for ovine brucellosis, you might consider a blood test.  Most states do not require ovine brucellosis testing if the ram is under 12 months old and not coming from out of state. 

As far as your hay, if the hay has a problem, your goats should show some symptoms too.  Do you get protein, etc. testing done  on the hay?  Cows can eat hay that would kill a sheep, goat, or horse, so feeding the hay to cows doesn't prove anything one way or another.  However, lack of minerals can cause low conception numbers.


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## Beekissed (Feb 20, 2020)

I'm so very sorry about your sheep and lambs....its heartbreaking to hear of such things, let alone to have to experience it.    

Here's a list of possible bacterial causes for abortion and death of ewes:









						Abortion in Sheep - Reproductive System - Merck Veterinary Manual
					

Learn about the veterinary topic of Abortion in Sheep. Find specific details on this topic and related topics from the Merck Vet Manual.




					www.merckvetmanual.com
				




It does sound like something bacterial though I wouldn't see a connection between the ram being the cause.   The excess rain may lead to the cause~causing more conditions that pathogens could thrive in~ and I can't believe your vet didn't want to do a PM of the dead sheep, just in case this was a serious disease process that can be spread to other farms/animals or even humans.


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## Baymule (Feb 21, 2020)

I’m praying for you and your Sheep!


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 21, 2020)

This may seem the most basic of questions - but have your ewes been dewormed?  This wouldn't apply to the lambs - but birthing brings on a parasite bloom that can take down a mama fairly quickly after a stressor like parturition.  I second the notation about selenium.    These would be the 'simplest' things to remedy.   But, it does sound like it may be more than that... Hope your vet can give you some answers.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 21, 2020)

At supper last night we (DH, DS1 and DS2) were discussing your problem and DH suggested you check your feed supplements for copper.  Is it possible that you are feeding a combination feed to your sheep, goats, and cattle that would have too much copper for the sheep?  Milk fever usually only affects the mother, not the newborn.  

What about feed storage?  Both DS1 and DS2 wondered about mold on the feed or hay with the amount of rain you have gotten.

We suggest that you have the vet draw blood on your ewes, lambs, and the ram and do a panel for minerals, selenium, copper, etc. as well as white cell levels for infection.  Have you given any antibiotics?

*I can't think of anything that would take down both mothers and lambs like this other than selenium deficiency.  Having your 2 surviving lambs start having trouble walking a few days after a successful birth would indicate a severe selenium deficiency to me. * However, a blood panel and necropsy on one of the ewes might give you some answers.

How many ewes have lambed successfully?  Are they all having problems or is this a percentage?  The older ewe with the smelly dead lambs indicates that the lambs had died previous to labor and deliver which could have been due to her age in combination with this problem you are experiencing.  Does the ram show any indications of weakness?  Are any of your neighbors having this problem?  If so, it might be something coming from the amount of rain you had last year affecting the hay you put up.  

Please keep us informed.  We are praying for you.  This is a devastating loss.


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## ewellons (Feb 21, 2020)

@Baymule   Thank you!  Gave the two lambs a dose of Banamine and Nuflor last night and they seem to have a little more spark as of this am.  Will give another dose tomorrow and hope they recover from whatever they have..


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## ewellons (Feb 21, 2020)

The feed is sheep feed and I have checked the amount of copper.  We have had one successful birth and the two lambs I am taking care of now, their mom is doing great?  I will be discussing getting some labs drawn as soon as the vet gets back in town and hopefully find out what is going on.   Yes, they have all been wormed.


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## ewellons (Feb 21, 2020)

Forgot to add that all the sheep also have free range to loose minerals that are specifically for sheep.  The ram is not showing and sign of weakness.  He is with a wether we keep for company for him and they are both doing fine.  They eat same feed and same hay..


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## mysunwolf (Feb 21, 2020)

Definitely look into Selenium deficiency. Even if it's in their minerals, they can still become deficient if there's a high level of molybdenum in the soil as it binds with it (among other things). Try giving the lambs 1/4cc BoSe. Good luck, I'll be following to see what happens as I'd really like to know!


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## Ridgetop (Feb 22, 2020)

Selenium is prescription only here in California.  If your vet will give you a prescription or sell you a vial for your flock/herd you can keep it on hand in the refrigerator.  It will be cheaper than having the vet come out each time to give a shot.  We got ours years ago from my friend that had a dairy.  Dairies usually have Bo-Se (bovine selenium) on hand to treat their herds rather than the vet having to drag it out when he comes on his monthly calls.  If you can't get it from the vet, you should just arrange a farm call for him to give a booster of selenium to all your animals about 4-6 weeks prior to birthing.  Too much selenium early in gestation can cause birth defects so be sure of the dose and when you give it.  

Selenium deficiency can combine with Vitamin E deficiency as well.  There is information on both on the web.


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## Ron Bequeath (Feb 26, 2020)

ewellons said:


> Thank you @Baymule .  I have read the articles which are very interesting .  We do have cats and unfortunately we have a lot of rodents that are around also.  I thank  you for your support and will be talking with the Vet to get them tested.  I love my sheep but this has just been very frustrating year!


where I'm located there is an eighty acre cornfield behind me, one year after the corn was taken off I started having problems with rodents even to the point of bites on my cows ears. I was exasperated. Didnt know what to do so bought a bag of rodent poison pellets, feed and milked the in the evening, and then instead of leaving her in the barn as usual I turned her out and dumped the bag in her feed box. I checked the box in the morning and it was licked clean. For the next few days buried 20 rodents and didn't have any more problems that year.


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## momto6Ls (Feb 26, 2020)

This sounds like our kidding season with our goats for the past two years. The first year I suspected the buck also - it was the only change. I thought it was just  poor genetics, but I missed the signs  in the does.  It took 5 years for the selenium deficiency to rear its ugly head. We sold 2 does before they kidded last year - they were the oldest of our herd, so probably the most deficient. They both had quads (which didn’t help), but the buyer lost 5 of the 8. She almost lost one of the does.

 Hearing that the ones with more lambs seem to have suffered the most, and that they were weak in the hind end also sounds like selenium. We also had an early abortion, and hard sacks around the kids - which caused some deaths - as well as still births.   Any obvious problems with contractions? Our does had weak contractions that caused some of the still births - they just couldn’t get them out fast enough! We ended up doing a lot of pulling.  This is also  caused by selenium deficiency. I didn’t know anything about selenium, so I missed all the first signs. 

 After some great advice, we gave selenium to the does still needing to kid and our results improved. Kids were still weak, but bounced right back with B complex and more selenium.

 I hope  the answer is as easy for you! What a traumatic season!! I’m so sorry for your loss, and hope the support here can make a difference. 

check your selenium! Set a regimen to give selenium supplements with your loose minerals if needed. We have had to do both. I know what we use is not recommended for sheep, so I won’t go there. Hugs!!


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## Jeff n Jenny (Feb 26, 2020)

ewellons said:


> I can't wait for this lambing season to be finished!  I have lost 11 lambs and two ewes!!  The vet is unsure what is going on and feels it may be the ram that we used this year who has been on our farm but just used him this year.  The ewes would go down in the hind quarters and just get gradually weaker.  One delivered three dead lambs and then three days later died also.  The same with the second ewe.  After reading everything I was guessing pregnancy toxemia so with the second ewe I tried the glucose drench, the vitamin B12 and the CMPK but nothing worked for her.  I then go out one morning and one of the other ewes delivered a set of twins with out and problem?!?  Another ewe who is the oldest in the flock and was not supposed to be bred ended up delivering 4 dead smelly lambs???  She did need help due to two of them being breech.  As if that hasn't been enough, I then have another ewe go down same symptoms as the first two.  I called the vet again and this time decide just to due a c section.  She did have two good size lambs but unfortunately both of those died also.  The good news is that the ewe who had the c section is doing good but then I had another ewe deliver triplets, two ram lambs and one ewe lamb.  This ewe had no problems with delivery but the runt ram lamb did pass away.  Now my problem is that the two remaining lambs just don't seem to be thriving?  The ram lamb wont put any weight on his right rear quarter for the past two days and the ewe lamb is starting to do the same thing.   My vet is out of town for a couple of days and I have already given them both V-B12....any other suggestions?   I have one more ewe to deliver and pray every day that I will be going out to the barn and see her with some healthy lambs!!   We have raised sheep for 16 years and have NEVER had problems like this...could it be the ram?  I am really second guessing breeding any more sheep!


Howdy!
I'm a new member and my heart aches after reading your post. Did you learn the cause?


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## Jeff n Jenny (Feb 26, 2020)

ewellons said:


> I can't wait for this lambing season to be finished!  I have lost 11 lambs and two ewes!!  The vet is unsure what is going on and feels it may be the ram that we used this year who has been on our farm but just used him this year.  The ewes would go down in the hind quarters and just get gradually weaker.  One delivered three dead lambs and then three days later died also.  The same with the second ewe.  After reading everything I was guessing pregnancy toxemia so with the second ewe I tried the glucose drench, the vitamin B12 and the CMPK but nothing worked for her.  I then go out one morning and one of the other ewes delivered a set of twins with out and problem?!?  Another ewe who is the oldest in the flock and was not supposed to be bred ended up delivering 4 dead smelly lambs???  She did need help due to two of them being breech.  As if that hasn't been enough, I then have another ewe go down same symptoms as the first two.  I called the vet again and this time decide just to due a c section.  She did have two good size lambs but unfortunately, both of those died also.  The good news is that the ewe who had the c section is doing good but then I had another ewe deliver triplets, two ram lambs and one ewe lamb.  This ewe had no problems with delivery but the runt ram lamb did pass away.  Now my problem is that the two remaining lambs just don't seem to be thriving?  The ram lamb won't put any weight on his right rear quarter for the past two days and the ewe lamb is starting to do the same thing.   My vet is out of town for a couple of days and I have already given them both V-B12....any other suggestions?   I have one more ewe to deliver and pray every day that I will be going out to the barn and see her with some healthy lambs!!   We have raised sheep for 16 years and have NEVER had problems like this...could it be the ram?  I am really second guessing breeding any more sheep!


Have you read "Natural Sheep Care" by Pat Colby?
She suggests that most issues are nutrition-related. Baymule mentioned Dolomitic lime (a.k.a. Dolomite) which is the foundation of a mineral mix (lick) recipe Colby suggests.
At the risk of feedback (pease share), copper is important. I recently attended a lambing seminar at U of Ky
who use a Cu solution for a drench. If there is a vet school near you, maybe invite them to visit.
Soil gets poor if not maintained/balanced. Poor soil produces lower nutrient levels in pasture and forage crops, hay, etc. If soil health goe down, herd health will follow without supplementation.
Our prayers and tears for your difficult season. **Please don't give up!


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## ewellons (Feb 26, 2020)

I have been giving the lambs Vitamin B12 complex and Selenium and Vitamin E complex.  They have been given the second dose of Banamine and Nuflor and have seen a huge difference!!   The only problem now is that the ewe lamb looks like she is constantly trying to urinate .  She is urinating but squats a lot.  Temp is down and they both are putting weight on their leg and running around like normal lambs


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## Jeff n Jenny (Feb 26, 2020)

ewellons said:


> I have been giving the lambs Vitamin B12 complex and Selenium and Vitamin E complex.  They have been given the second dose of Banamine and Nuflor and have seen a huge difference!!   The only problem now is that the ewe lamb looks like she is constantly trying to urinate .  She is urinating but squats a lot.  Temp is down and they both are putting weight on their leg and running around like normal lambs


YEAH!!!
We have used a product from Australia called VAM (in a paste form) at any sign of trouble. I bought it through PetsMegaStore https://www.pets-megastore.com.au/index.php?route=product/search&search=VAM
It is a Vitamin and Mineral mix developed around high-performance animals. A little spendy but worth it.
I'll do some digging. I've read about that symptom before...
Make sure your girls are well hydrated, well water or stream is way better than municipal water.
It will b a couple of hours before I come back


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## Jeff n Jenny (Feb 26, 2020)

Quick thought: 
Probably not Urinary Calculi as it's more prone to the boys, 
and avoided when the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is 2:1. 
Natural Cider Vinegar is a good preventative measure.
For Vitamins A&E we/ve used cold-processed Cod liver oil.
How old is she? What is pee stream like? Color? How often squatting, how often peeing?
Any sign of pain? Any other observations?
Are there any boys nearby when she squats (common submissive behavior in ewes out of estrous)
It can be a nervous behavior if her environment has changed.
It can be serious**
a couple of links:








						Urinary Calculi in Wether Lambs/Kids - 1.629
					

The formation of calculi (stones or crystals) in the urinary tract of sheep and goats and is considered a metabolic disease. Commonly calculi are found in lambs or kids on a high concentrate diet. The mineral composition of drinking water in conjunction with mineral imbalances in the diet tends...




					extension.colostate.edu
				











						24hrs old ewe lamb having difficulty peeing ? - The Accidental Smallholder
					

24hrs old ewe lamb having difficulty peeing ?




					www.accidentalsmallholder.net
				







__





						Urinary Calculi in sheep and goats
					

Proper feeding can reduce the risk of urinary calculi in goats.




					www.canr.msu.edu
				











						Urolithiasis in Small Ruminants | American College of Veterinary Surgeons - ACVS
					

The American College of Veterinary Surgeons is the agency by which veterinarians are certified as specialists in surgery. The mission of ACVS is to advance the art and science of surgery and promote excellence in animal health care through research, education and service to the public.




					www.acvs.org
				











						Sheep and Goats: Treating Urinary Blockages
					

One of the most common health emergencies in small ruminants is urolithiasis, or urinary stones, causing a blockage in the urinary tract. These blockages occur




					www.olddominionvets.com


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## ewellons (Feb 26, 2020)

I am thinking it is a nervous thing.  Only really does it when we are in the pen with her.  That is a very interesting read.  Thank you!


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## Hipshot (Feb 26, 2020)

Have you had anyone do a Necropsy ?or fical floats ?  Barber pole worms do that to goats .Also hoof rot .


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## Ridgetop (Feb 26, 2020)

momto6Ls said:


> This sounds like our kidding season with our goats for the past two years. The first year I suspected the buck also - it was the only change. I thought it was just poor genetics, but I missed the signs in the does. It took 5 years for the selenium deficiency to rear its ugly head. We sold 2 does before they kidded last year - they were the oldest of our herd, so probably the most deficient. They both had quads (which didn’t help), but the buyer lost 5 of the 8. She almost lost one of the does.



*Momto6Ls' experience sounds a lot like yours, Ewellons.  *

Since the lambs improved after giving selenium and vitamin B, it sounds like that may have been the problem.  They were probably getting lower and lower in selenium every year until finally they simply couldn't manage the stress and energy output involved in lambing.  It sounds like you will need to be giving selenium boosters every year, which os easy to do along with vaccinations.  If you have more ewes to lamb, I suggest you give them a dose now before they lamb.  

I think you may have the problem solved.  Did you ever get any tests done by the vet?


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## Jeff n Jenny (Feb 26, 2020)

ewellons said:


> I am thinking it is a nervous thing.  Only really does it when we are in the pen with her.  That is a very interesting read.  Thank you!


I hope that is the whole of her problem.
Sneaking around and watching from a distance will reveal much.
Also, when an animal has a rough start in this world, it may be more nervous, high-strung, frightened, timid, etc.
As we attempt to manage our time, still only 24 hours in a day, we can move quickly through routines and chores.
I always try to create a calm and safe environment for new-lings, whatever they are.
Sheep are especially timid/flighty, a little like white-tailed deer.
We started off with a ram and 2-ewes. One ewe (Gertrude) had "personality," naturally curious, friendly, maybe naive. The other, Ruby, was very watchful, always alert and maybe a bit suspicious.
Junior was more like a dog than a ram. I broke them to lead and they could all be handled with ease.
We add another ewe, a Dorper with triplets to our Katahdins. We had a busy lambing season 2019 with 6 lambs born. One set of twins was an accident (we didn't want that late-season ewe lamb bread that year. She was small and did well lambing but her utter was small for twins. The first lamb, a ram, was slurping up most of the milk. So I was jumping in the jug holding one for the other, a ewe, to nurse. Then I started to bring a bottle to help suppliment. I was too bold with my methods and the ewe lamb became afraid of me. When I would come around, she wanted to hide under momma. It took months to build/recover trust. I'm pretty sure that her nervousness was a product of early (slight) malnourishment.
We look forward to hearing good things from your adventure


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