# In search of LGD in Florida



## Angeliki Manouselis

After a year with no problems, I believe I have another bobcat in my area.  I set a trap last night and didn't get it. (I have successfully trapped in the past) Will try until I get it, but I think the better long term plan is finding a couple Livestock guardian dogs.  I have goat kids on the way and I am so nervous. I lost a duck and a hen this week.  My ducks don't like to go in at night so I have to chase them and put them away.   If anyone knows any LGD breeders in Florida, I would really appreciate information.  Thank you!


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## Rammy

@Southern by choice might be able to help you with that as far as what to look for maybe?


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Rammy said:


> @Southern by choice might be able to help you with that as far as what to look for maybe?


Thank you  !


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## B&B Happy goats

We live in Florida, look on craigslist. I see alot for sale,..we are outside of gainsville....


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## Ridgetop

If you are having trouble with a resident predator, you will need an older trained dog.  A cute little LGD puppy will be a meal for the bobcat. 

Here I may upset some people, but I am saddened by reading posts from people who have problem dogs because they did not do their homework on LGDs, gotten poorly bred dogs from breeders who only care about breeding LGD puppies for a quick dollar.  There are a lot of people out there breeding LGDs, they are becoming trendy.  Trendy is the death of good dogs.  It doesn't cost any more to feed and care for a good LGD, it actually costs less because you will have a good working dog protecting your livestock.  We know where the bad socialized LGDs with poor temperament and no ability end up.

First, I don't advocate getting a puppy from Craigslist unless the owner has both parents, both parents are true working dogs, not pets in a backyard with one pet goat and some chickens.  Puppies also need training.  Do you have the time and experience for LGD training? 

Second, I would definitely not get a rescue LGD either.  No offence to those who have done so, but Angeliki does not have the time to train a rescue that probably has some bad behavior issues.  Those people that have rescued or adopted unknown LGDs have had to work months and years to retrain them into reliable working dogs.  There are more failures than successes. 

And third, we have all read too many posts from people that have jumped at the chance to get a *free* "LGD" of unknown heritage or background who has "been with animals".  Heartbreaking, but so avoidable if the poster had bought from a good breeder, trained the dog properly, and received the advice and help you can expect from a responsible breeder. 

Angeliki needs a working dog right now, who is properly trained.  Puppies are cute but will not be able to do the job for at least 6-12 months.  Southern might be able to put her in touch with someone with a trained adult dog, or a 6-12 month old trained puppy that would keep the bobcat at bay.  Those dogs will not be cheap or free.  You can find cheap "LGDs" but they may or may not be worth the money.  Are they healthy?  Are they free from dysplasia?  Most importantly, are they really out of working parents?  Why take a chance, get a good dog from a reputable breeder.

*Here I am going to get on a soapbox and defend good LGD breeders.*  Their dogs cost money because they put money into their dogs.   I want to point out here before anyone starts screaming at the price of a good LGD, that you have to consider what a good breeder has invested in the litter.  OFA testing for hip dysplasia is expensive. Without it your puppy could become crippled by an inherited deformity at 2 or 3 years of age.  The stud fee for a good male is not cheap and if the breeder owns both dogs, she has the initial investment in the male and his expenses.  She also loses a guardian while the female is in season (3 weeks), and delivering and nursing pups (4-6 weeks).  Good quality dog food costs money and most breeders supplement as well.  Puppies and a lactating bitch eat a LOT.  Vaccinations run into money even if the breeder gives her own shots.  By 12 weeks, puppies have had at least 2 rounds of vaccines.  Don't forget puppies have to be wormed - more expense - and if the dog is leaving the state there is the charge for a health certificate.  

LGD puppies don't leap out of the whelping box and immediately start guarding their livestock either.  Training is time consuming.  The good breeder watches the puppies for their attributes and temperament - not all puppies in a litter will make good LGDs.  Some will be better suited to general household guards, farm dogs, and the cream will be LGDs.  The best breeders stand behind their dogs, have contracts demanding the return to the dog if the owner has to relinquish it.  They are available for advice and assistance in training, etc.  By the time the breeder sells a puppy at 12 weeks of age, they have a large $$$ investment in those puppies.  Good breeders are very picky about who gets their dogs since they don't want those puppies to end up on Craigslist, in rescue, or the shelter.

Now that we have establish that the breeder has a lot of money invested in each puppy, maybe you won't shriek in outrage at the price.  Here is another way to realize the value in the LGD.  Take the price of that dog and divide it by 12 years which is the basic life span of a good LGD who receiving proper food and vet care.  Compare that to 12 years of no lost livestock, 12 years of being able to sleep through the night, and a trustworthy guardian.  *It will be cheap.* 

After our old LGD died of cancer we decided not to replace her.  2 years later I had lost $3,500.00 in dead ewes and lost lambs.  It took me over a month to locate a trained adult LGD that would suit our family.  I could have had a pair of older trained LGDs - they were vicious when eating, the owner could not approach them.  I could have had a nice trained LGD whose owner was rehoming him because he needed 7' fences.  Another that the owner thought _might _make a good LGD, maybe.  Several litters of puppies but they would have to be locked up for many months so they themselves would be safe from predators.  You get the idea. 

In the end DH and I found a breeder in Texas who had a dog he _might_ sell.  I talked to him for 2 weeks about his dogs, then we drove 1,500 miles one way - 3 days - to meet the breeder.  I paid $2,500.00 for a trained 18 month old Anatolian bitch.   My breeder's contract was strict.  I spayed my bitch since I did not want to breed puppies.

She was the best investment I ever made.  I have since bought an Anatolian puppy from the same breeder.  I am currently training our 3rd Anatolian from the same bloodlines.  I don't shudder at the price.  I have money invested in my livestock, I invest money in good LGDs.  It is worth the cost. 

Ask Southern how much money she had in each of her puppies, and how much time she spends helping her buyers and others.


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## Ridgetop

Sorry, I probably should have posted this in its own posting or forum. 

Angeliki needs help finding a good LGD and I am not criticizing her at all.


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## B&B Happy goats

Look on CL in the gainsville Ocala area, there are great breeders that breed  and have both parents on site and do training, we are in horse country, cattle, sheep and goats. These people advertise that their dogs are socialized  with these animals. They may also be in touch with older dogs that need a home or rescue groups. I understand @Ridgetop  passion...but there are some good  breeders  here. Best of luck to you


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Thank you all for the info. I will search for reputable breeders. I am willing to put in the time to train and raise a young dog with my animals as I work part-time and only nights. I understand it will take a while and also of course they won’t be put out in a field to be eaten by the predator. I was planning to build a dog house/shed in the animal yard for the LGD and I think I want two of them.


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## Ridgetop

Yes, B & B, I _am_ passionate because I want LGD owners to have a wonderful experience and be able to sleep at night. 

New buyers need to know the difference between someone who happens to have a couple of LGD breed dogs and has a litter thinking to cash in or LGD reputations for money and those who really know their dog and are producing good working dogs for working homes.  Those breeders want their dogs to go to working livestock homes.

Angeliki,
You can buy two from the same litter.  They will be back up for each other at an earlier age and company for each other.  However they will so be twice as much to train, feed, and socialize. 

I suggest you read some books about LGDs as well since they are truly a different kettle of fish from all other breeds.  I recommend The Way of the Pack by Brenda Negri.  _Yes, everyone, I have read it and that is why I am recommending it._  I do not do everything she suggests, but she has excellent advice in it.  I would also go on the Lucky Hit website and read the articles by Erick Conard who has spent over 30 years breeding and training guardian dogs.  He has many excellent articles covering all phases of his experiences with LGDs.  Third, find the Facebook page of Debra Buckner and look at her puppy training videos.  I don't do Facebook, but Erick says she does a great job with these training videos.

For over 30 years we have owned, lived with, and worked 8 LGDs and are currently training our 9th.  During that time we have run varying numbers of sheep and goats (as few as 5 up to 100) on 5 fenced steep, brushy, acres in southern California.  We have 5_ resident_ packs of coyotes living and hunting outside our fences, and occasional cougar.  Our first LGD was a SarPlaninetz purchased from a sheep rancher in Montana.  Our subsequent 5 were Great Pyrenees, 4 purchased from commercial Basque sheep rancher in Bakersfield.  One of our Pyrs was a roamer, and we rehomed her to a large ranch in Riverside.  Our last Pyr was a granddaughter of our best Pyr amd a Pry LGD out of Ohio.  All of our Pyrs were distance protectors meaning they protected the borders of our property.  They remained with our goats and sheep during lambing and kidding only.  During an attack on the livestock they would split up to protect the flock, one staying close and the other driving off the predators.  Our current 3 are Anatolians.  I prefer them because they are close in workers, but like all LGDs they divide up their work loads, and work in partnership. 

Look into the different breeds since they are different in their approach to protection.

*Whatever breed you buy, your fences must be escape proof and you must teach your dogs their boundaries.*  A roaming LGD can be shot, picked up by the shelter, stolen.  Roaming LGDs with sharper temperament like Anatolians may bite their rescuers and end up being put down, or you can be sued for having a "dangerous" dog.  GOOD FENCES ARE IMPERATIVE.

When shopping for your dog or puppy, speak to the breeders on the phone before looking at cute puppies.  Here are some questions to ask before going to see the puppies:

1.  How long have the breeders owned LGDs? 
2.  Have they experience training LGD puppies that are guarding livestock?
3.  If there is an issue, do they stand behind their puppies and take them back?
4.  How large is their property, what is the topography, and how is it fenced?   _Flat fenced land with easy sight lines is easier to protect than steep, brushy land with lots of out of sight places for predators to hide.
5.  _Have they had their dog x-rayed for dysplasia? 
6.  Have the puppies had their shots, been wormed, do they guarantee the health of their puppies?
7.  What are the problems of this particular breed?  Roamers?  Diggers?  Sharp temperament around strangers?  Need constant grooming?  (All LGDs have heavy double coats, BUT some breeds with excessive coat need constant grooming - others only need heavy grooming during spring coat blow.)
8.  Does the breeder every have adult dogs for sale or placement. 

Ask the breeder's advice about what they have seen in each puppy.  Don't fall in love with one particular puppy or let your children choose one.  Remember this is not just a cute household puppy for the kids that will bark at coyotes and bobcats.  *The livestock guardian dog is a working family member with a strong mind and even stronger body.* You will have him/her to work with you and you will have to be responsible for him and his behavior to others for a minimum of 12 years.  You will have to anticipate any moves made by 150 lbs. of muscle in the event of emergency.  You need one that suits your ranch, livestock. and you.  (Hopefully, you will have chosen a good breeder who can help you choose  based on your needs.)  Even better if you locate a breeder that has taken back a trained dog due to the owner's health, or other problems.  Often these will be more costly, but are trained and working immediately. You can then add a pppy once the adult has settled in.  The adult dog will help you with the puppy' training but you will still have to do most of the training yourself. 

You do not have the dog yet, so this is the time to make all your inquiries, read all you can from people who have had problems so you can avoid making costly mistakes.  By doing this, you will have a successful relationship with your guardians.  _They are not just dogs, they are working partners in the safety of your stock, and family, whom they will defend to the death._ 

I have decided to put all this information on a second new forum about LGDs and I invite everyone who has LGDs to contribute.

Angeliki - Good Luck.  A good LGD is worth the entire cost of all your livestock.  I could not live safely without my dogs.


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## B&B Happy goats

Ridgetop said:


> Yes, B & B, I _am_ passionate because I want LGD owners to have a wonderful experience and be able to sleep at night.
> 
> New buyers need to know the difference between someone who happens to have a couple of LGD breed dogs and has a litter thinking to cash in or LGD reputations for money and those who really know their dog and are producing good working dogs for working homes.  Those breeders want their dogs to go to working livestock homes.
> 
> Angeliki,
> You can buy two from the same litter.  They will be back up for each other at an earlier age and company for each other.  However they will so be twice as much to train, feed, and socialize.
> 
> I suggest you read some books about LGDs as well since they are truly a different kettle of fish from all other breeds.  I recommend The Way of the Pack by Brenda Negri.  _Yes, everyone, I have read it and that is why I am recommending it._  I do not do everything she suggests, but she has excellent advice in it.  I would also go on the Lucky Hit website and read the articles by Erick Conard who has spent over 30 years breeding and training guardian dogs.  He has many excellent articles covering all phases of his experiences with LGDs.  Third, find the Facebook page of Debra Buckner and look at her puppy training videos.  I don't do Facebook, but Erick says she does a great job with these training videos.
> 
> For over 30 years we have owned, lived with, and worked 8 LGDs and are currently training our 9th.  During that time we have run varying numbers of sheep and goats (as few as 5 up to 100) on 5 fenced steep, brushy, acres in southern California.  We have 5_ resident_ packs of coyotes living and hunting outside our fences, and occasional cougar.  Our first LGD was a SarPlaninetz purchased from a sheep rancher in Montana.  Our subsequent 5 were Great Pyrenees, 4 purchased from commercial Basque sheep rancher in Bakersfield.  One of our Pyrs was a roamer, and we rehomed her to a large ranch in Riverside.  Our last Pyr was a granddaughter of our best Pyr amd a Pry LGD out of Ohio.  All of our Pyrs were distance protectors meaning they protected the borders of our property.  They remained with our goats and sheep during lambing and kidding only.  During an attack on the livestock they would split up to protect the flock, one staying close and the other driving off the predators.  Our current 3 are Anatolians.  I prefer them because they are close in workers, but like all LGDs they divide up their work loads, and work in partnership.
> 
> Look into the different breeds since they are different in their approach to protection.
> 
> *Whatever breed you buy, your fences must be escape proof and you must teach your dogs their boundaries.*  A roaming LGD can be shot, picked up by the shelter, stolen.  Roaming LGDs with sharper temperament like Anatolians may bite their rescuers and end up being put down, or you can be sued for having a "dangerous" dog.  GOOD FENCES ARE IMPERATIVE.
> 
> When shopping for your dog or puppy, speak to the breeders on the phone before looking at cute puppies.  Here are some questions to ask before going to see the puppies:
> 
> 1.  How long have the breeders owned LGDs?
> 2.  Have they experience training LGD puppies that are guarding livestock?
> 3.  If there is an issue, do they stand behind their puppies and take them back?
> 4.  How large is their property, what is the topography, and how is it fenced?   _Flat fenced land with easy sight lines is easier to protect than steep, brushy land with lots of out of sight places for predators to hide.
> 5.  _Have they had their dog x-rayed for dysplasia?
> 6.  Have the puppies had their shots, been wormed, do they guarantee the health of their puppies?
> 7.  What are the problems of this particular breed?  Roamers?  Diggers?  Sharp temperament around strangers?  Need constant grooming?  (All LGDs have heavy double coats, BUT some breeds with excessive coat need constant grooming - others only need heavy grooming during spring coat blow.)
> 8.  Does the breeder every have adult dogs for sale or placement.
> 
> Ask the breeder's advice about what they have seen in each puppy.  Don't fall in love with one particular puppy or let your children choose one.  Remember this is not just a cute household puppy for the kids that will bark at coyotes and bobcats.  *The livestock guardian dog is a working family member with a strong mind and even stronger body.* You will have him/her to work with you and you will have to be responsible for him and his behavior to others for a minimum of 12 years.  You will have to anticipate any moves made by 150 lbs. of muscle in the event of emergency.  You need one that suits your ranch, livestock. and you.  (Hopefully, you will have chosen a good breeder who can help you choose  based on your needs.)  Even better if you locate a breeder that has taken back a trained dog due to the owner's health, or other problems.  Often these will be more costly, but are trained and working immediately. You can then add a pppy once the adult has settled in.  The adult dog will help you with the puppy' training but you will still have to do most of the training yourself.
> 
> You do not have the dog yet, so this is the time to make all your inquiries, read all you can from people who have had problems so you can avoid making costly mistakes.  By doing this, you will have a successful relationship with your guardians.  _They are not just dogs, they are working partners in the safety of your stock, and family, whom they will defend to the death._
> 
> I have decided to put all this information on a second new forum about LGDs and I invite everyone who has LGDs to contribute.
> 
> Angeliki - Good Luck.  A good LGD is worth the entire cost of all your livestock.  I could not live safely without my dogs.



My stating your "passion"  was in no way ment as a insult toward you.   I just happen to live in the same state as  the poster of the question and offered her a wonderful area of the state to search for a good breeder...I am quite sure there are many states in this country with wonderful breeders...having passion for your animals is a beautiful  thing


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## Ridgetop

I am sure there are good breeders there.  Many people are knowledgeable, honest, and reputable for continuing offering help and guidance to the puppy buyers.  Sadly you have to search to find them since there are so many who are advertising and are bad breeders.  If you do not know the difference you can be tricked by overly low prices when the reputable breeder has puppies for sale that reflect the money that has gone into their raising.

I am becoming depressed about all the posts we are seeing from people having behavior problems with "livestock guardian dogs" that should never have been breed, much less sold as guardians.  These dogs wreak havoc on their owner's lives, livestock, and checkbook.  

I believe that when breeding you should only breed for the best and that includes temperament, health, conformation, and ability in the parents.  So many people now are jumping on the bandwagon of "Livestock Guardian Dogs" that they are breeding litters to make a quick buck.  Anatolians are becoming popular as pets because they are huge, and can be aggressive.  The show people are keeping a pet goat so they can advertise their winning dogs as "true working dogs", even though the dogs spends 90% of its time living with the handler on the show circuit.  It breaks my heart to see so many dogs whose true purpose is guarding livestock become just a status symbol for people who do not understand the breeds, socialize them, or train them at all.  Then they complain about the viciousness of a dog who has been badly bred, improperly trained, and used.

I really want people to have a successful experience with a true Livestock Guardian Dog.  They are fantastic partners in ranch life, save us sleep, money, and the tragedy of having to put down or bury a slashed, torn, or half eaten animal that you have spent physical and emotional resources caring for.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Thank you all for the information and feedback! 
I am going to pick up two female Great Pyrenees puppies on Sunday! The parents are on site working dogs and the puppies have already been around chickens and goats.   I am going to be reading endless threads from here and on “livestock guardian dogs” Facebook group.  At night , the puppies will sleep inside the house but in a separate room so they don’t bond too much to me and my boyfriend. During the day they will spend outside with me and the chickens and goats. Until they’re big enough to defend themselves from the pesky bobcat that has been stealing my ducks... I don’t have any really large predators in my area, just bobcats. I saw one lone coyote once a long time ago though. But my 7 acres is between two main roads and not so much in the country.   My goats will be kidding very soon, I am kind of glad the puppies will grow up with the kids, that might make it even better for bonding to the goats! Right? This is all so new to me, I am as excited as I am nervous.


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## B&B Happy goats

Congratulations  on the pups !
Where  are the pictures of the pup ?????


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## Angeliki Manouselis

B&B Happy goats said:


> Congratulations  on the pups !
> Where  are the pictures of the pup ?????


 I was trying to figure out how to put a photo in here lol 
I’ll post pups mom and dad 
I think they’re very young in the only photo I have.  I’m going to text the lady now to send me a couple more photos


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## Angeliki Manouselis

I had reached out to a few rescues, they had no working dogs. They told me it was not wise to get two females from the same litter as they don’t get along with the same gender when they get older they will fight, I’ve never heard this before.


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## Rammy

Angeliki Manouselis said:


> I had reached out to a few rescues, they had no working dogs. They told me it was not wise to get two females from the same litter as they don’t get along with the same gender when they get older they will fight, I’ve never heard this before.


I do believe it was mentioned in a post from either @Ridgetop or @Southern by choice. I was going to say something when you mentioned getting two females but thought it had already been posted about females not getting along, especially when they come into heat. There are other threads on here that I do know it was mentioned so you might look those up. Congrats on your puppies.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Rammy said:


> I do believe it was mentioned in a post from either @Ridgetop or @Southern by choice. I was going to say something when you mentioned getting two females but thought it had already been posted about females not getting along, especially when they come into heat. There are other threads on here that I do know it was mentioned so you might look those up. Congrats on your puppies.



Hmmm... it’s not a guarantee though right, some can get along? My friend has two PYR male brothers they guard their goats and never fight. I mean if it does happen I have separate areas where the chickens are then the goats are that I can seperate if necessary. I need to get two females though because my dad who lives next door, we have joining properties, has an alpha male Doberman who doesn’t get along with males at all.


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## Baymule

The Doberman should never be in your dogs working area, ever. So that is a moot point. Your major concern should be your own dogs getting along. I have a pair of GP’s male and female, they work well together. Two females will get along until one day, they don’t. Spaying will help with the hormonal attitude, but wait until they are 2 years old so they can reach full growth and their bones can grow. 

I recommend reading The Way of The Pack, by Brenda Negri, available on Amazon. She ran up to 25 dogs at a time. She also raised siblings to work together. It’s a very good read. From what I hear, FB groups may not be the best place to get advice on LGDs


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> The Doberman should never be in your dogs working area, ever. So that is a moot point. Your major concern should be your own dogs getting along. I have a pair of GP’s male and female, they work well together. Two females will get along until one day, they don’t. Spaying will help with the hormonal attitude, but wait until they are 2 years old so they can reach full growth and their bones can grow.
> 
> I recommend reading The Way of The Pack, by Brenda Negri, available on Amazon. She ran up to 25 dogs at a time. She also raised siblings to work together. It’s a very good read. From what I hear, FB groups may not be the best place to get advice on LGDs


 They won't be together ever but god forbid the dobe gets in the goat pen or the GP gets out because they want to go at it.  I want all the dogs to get along of course.   Well, the Facebook group members are all people with farms and LGDs too, just like this site.... I will order the book.


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## Ridgetop

Too back you can't get a male and female puppy.  They would definitely work well together.  Anatolian siblings of the same sex are fine until 2 years or so when they will fight for dominance.  I do not know about Pyrenees siblings, but Brenda's book (The Way of the Pack) talks about raising siblings together.  There is a lot other good information in it for you too.  We space our LGDs by age about 3-4 years so the older ones will help teach the younger ones.  Definitely spay them around 2 years or after their 2nd heat cycle.  You will have to provide some sort of confinement other than the property fencing while they are in season if the Doberman has access to your property.  You will need to get a kennel run (available at Lowe's or Home Depot stores) _with a top_ to keep them in during their cycle.  Pyrenees can climb chain link.  The top can be solid to keep out rain, or another chain link panel. These kennel panels clip together with butterfly clips that come with the corral package.  I suggest you get 2 and put them together in one large run since both your bitches will probably come season together or within a week of each other.  Not only are they the same age, but they will bring each other into season.  Not sure why, but it happens with 2 or more females kept together - goats and sheep seem to do it too.

Male dogs do not _usually_ attack females, while females will often attack males.  On the other hand, male LGDs will have no problem attacking a female dog that goes for his livestock.  That said, females and males (other than LGDs) usually can live together amicably.  But if you have heard the term bitch fight, it comes from the fights that female dogs (that are _not_ LGDs) have with each other which usually end with one killing the other.  At that point one of the bitches has to be removed from the pack since they will never get along together again.  However, the more work there is, the easier it seems to be for the dogs to get along.  They do have to work together to keep the flocks safe, and the dogs seem to realize it.  If you don't have enough work for them, then they may quarrel.

 I have read many stories about female Pyrenees siblings guarding together with no trouble.  If you fix them, and no male is introduced to their "pack" it may work out.   The Canadian government hires large teams of forestry workers who take flocks of 1,000 sheep into the forests to control the understory and keep down the danger of forest fires.  These teams use forestry students accompanies by large packs of various LGDs to guard the sheep during the summers.  They truck the sheep and dogs to remote locations, stay out in the wilderness all summer walking the sheep through heavy predator areas.  Their worst and most common predators are bears and wolves that will attack the flocks in spite of the human presence.  The most common breed of LGD they use are Pyrenees.  You can read about this program on several Canadian Great Pyrenees information websites.  The stories are fascinating.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Ridgetop said:


> Too back you can't get a male and female puppy.  They would definitely work well together.  Anatolian siblings of the same sex are fine until 2 years or so when they will fight for dominance.  I do not know about Pyrenees siblings, but Brenda's book (The Way of the Pack) talks about raising siblings together.  There is a lot other good information in it for you too.  We space our LGDs by age about 3-4 years so the older ones will help teach the younger ones.  Definitely spay them around 2 years or after their 2nd heat cycle.  You will have to provide some sort of confinement other than the property fencing while they are in season if the Doberman has access to your property.  You will need to get a kennel run (available at Lowe's or Home Depot stores) _with a top_ to keep them in during their cycle.  Pyrenees can climb chain link.  The top can be solid to keep out rain, or another chain link panel. These kennel panels clip together with butterfly clips that come with the corral package.  I suggest you get 2 and put them together in one large run since both your bitches will probably come season together or within a week of each other.  Not only are they the same age, but they will bring each other into season.  Not sure why, but it happens with 2 or more females kept together - goats and sheep seem to do it too.
> 
> Male dogs do not _usually_ attack females, while females will often attack males.  On the other hand, male LGDs will have no problem attacking a female dog that goes for his livestock.  That said, females and males (other than LGDs) usually can live together amicably.  But if you have heard the term bitch fight, it comes from the fights that female dogs (that are _not_ LGDs) have with each other which usually end with one killing the other.  At that point one of the bitches has to be removed from the pack since they will never get along together again.  However, the more work there is, the easier it seems to be for the dogs to get along.  They do have to work together to keep the flocks safe, and the dogs seem to realize it.  If you don't have enough work for them, then they may quarrel.
> 
> I have read many stories about female Pyrenees siblings guarding together with no trouble.  If you fix them, and no male is introduced to their "pack" it may work out.   The Canadian government hires large teams of forestry workers who take flocks of 1,000 sheep into the forests to control the understory and keep down the danger of forest fires.  These teams use forestry students accompanies by large packs of various LGDs to guard the sheep during the summers.  They truck the sheep and dogs to remote locations, stay out in the wilderness all summer walking the sheep through heavy predator areas.  Their worst and most common predators are bears and wolves that will attack the flocks in spite of the human presence.  The most common breed of LGD they use are Pyrenees.  You can read about this program on several Canadian Great Pyrenees information websites.  The stories are fascinating.



I have just ordered the book “the way of the pack”
I’m anxious to read it.
I will be spaying them when they’re two. 
The photo the chicken yard, it’s only 1/4 acre and I’m moving the goats here before they kid so they can be closer to my house. 6ft fence.
When the kids are old enough they’re all going to the back 4 acres of land with the dogs when they’re old enough as well. All I have are bobcats, raccoons, possums, hawks, and the occasional coyote. Not sure if I’m just going to move the chickens out there too eventually  or what yet. I have a lot of reading and thinking to do.


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## Baymule

The more you study, read and ask questions, the more you learn. But that's nothing compared to what your dogs will teach you. You are about to begin a love affair with two awesome dogs.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> The more you study, read and ask questions, the more you learn. But that's nothing compared to what your dogs will teach you. You are about to begin a love affair with two awesome dogs.



I am so beyond excited !!!


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## Ridgetop

Make sure your fencing is good, and that you train your dogs to the fence.  Your will be learning so much from them.  Be sure you understand their behavior since behavior we first may think is bad, may not be once you understand what they are doing.  The book is great, very step by step and easy to understand.  Everyone will help you through any difficult phases as the pups grow. 

I sleep sounder hearing my dogs bark at night.  I can tell where they are on my property and from the timbre of their voices whether I need to get up and check or whether it is just a warning.  The dogs warnings become a lullaby! 

Security is an LGD!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Ridgetop said:


> Make sure your fencing is good, and that you train your dogs to the fence.  Your will be learning so much from them.  Be sure you understand their behavior since behavior we first may think is bad, may not be once you understand what they are doing.  The book is great, very step by step and easy to understand.  Everyone will help you through any difficult phases as the pups grow.
> 
> I sleep sounder hearing my dogs bark at night.  I can tell where they are on my property and from the timbre of their voices whether I need to get up and check or whether it is just a warning.  The dogs warnings become a lullaby!
> 
> Security is an LGD!



We will definitely be reinforcing fencing and clearing out brush all along the fence line so we can make sure it’s always up and tight. 
That is great to feel so secure knowing your livestock is ok. 
Can’t wait. Book should be here tomorrow.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Decided against getting puppies and I’m now searching again for an adult dog who has already been with goats. My doe just had twins last night and I’m struggling to get them locked up at night.  There is a dog 3 hours from me that someone wants to re home. She knows chickens and horses but has never been with goats. Ugh the struggle. I should have gotten livestock dogs last year lol I’m so unprepared


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## B&B Happy goats

If it makes you feel any better...i keep my doe and her kids in a pen together to bond for three days or more....no problem getting them in at night, they go on their own


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## Baymule

Can you please put your general location in your avatar? The title of this thread has Florida in it, but you will make other posts and I bet you won't put Florida in the title of every one. LOL

Here's a site you might be interested in. Sometimes they have some good dogs on there. 

http://greatpyrenees.rescueme.org/


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> Can you please put your general location in your avatar? The title of this thread has Florida in it, but you will make other posts and I bet you won't put Florida in the title of every one. LOL
> 
> Here's a site you might be interested in. Sometimes they have some good dogs on there.
> 
> http://greatpyrenees.rescueme.org/



Yes, sorry, I need to update my info. 
I did find a Pyr mix she is two years old and is already with goats and kids and chickens too! Apparently they have never lost any animals with her on guard. Owner is getting out of livestock, she is in NC but is going to meet me halfway in GA hopefully this week.   Now I am researching how to introduce her to my goats. My goats are not aggressive at all, I think they will be ok with her.


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## misfitmorgan

I hope she does well for you and your animals.

A mix isn't exactly like other Pyr's but it gives you an idea of what they are like. When people say LGDs are not like other dogs, it's really true they are not. Be warned though, our Pyr barked a lot and your's might too. She went every couple of hours at night and did warning barks on each corner of our property which was about 20 minutes every few hours at night. We got used to it and were fine with it, you may as well but your neighbors might not. I'm happy you're not getting puppies as from what i've read/seen they can be extremely hard to train not to chase your small livestock.

As far as your goats not being aggressive.... You are putting a "predator" in with prey animals, they will likely be aggressive and not accept any LGD for awhile esp with new kids on the ground. If they have no fear of her they may simply beat her up, so just be prepared for anything when they meet.

Congrats!


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## Baymule

She is pretty, and she is already with goats and chickens! Yay!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

misfitmorgan said:


> I hope she does well for you and your animals.
> 
> A mix isn't exactly like other Pyr's but it gives you an idea of what they are like. When people say LGDs are not like other dogs, it's really true they are not. Be warned though, our Pyr barked a lot and your's might too. She went every couple of hours at night and did warning barks on each corner of our property which was about 20 minutes every few hours at night. We got used to it and were fine with it, you may as well but your neighbors might not. I'm happy you're not getting puppies as from what i've read/seen they can be extremely hard to train not to chase your small livestock.
> 
> As far as your goats not being aggressive.... You are putting a "predator" in with prey animals, they will likely be aggressive and not accept any LGD for awhile esp with new kids on the ground. If they have no fear of her they may simply beat her up, so just be prepared for anything when they meet.
> 
> Congrats!


She is half Pyr, half Karakachan, 
I am ok with the barking, and I don’t have neighbors, thankfully!  I will definitely be prepared for anything and I will watch them closely throughout the day and night.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> She is pretty, and she is already with goats and chickens! Yay!


 She is a lovely girl! 
I am so happy I really hope it works out well, I am trying to learn about how I should go about instroducing her to new grounds (fenced area) and her new goats.


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## Baymule

Angeliki Manouselis said:


> She is half Pyr, half Karakachan,
> I am ok with the barking, and I don’t have neighbors, thankfully!  I will definitely be prepared for anything and I will watch them closely throughout the day and night.


You have a full-on Livestock Guard Dog. Karakachan is a LGD breed. So you did good. The concern with a "half" is that the other half might be a Border Collie or a Blue Heeler, both stock dogs, but in the chase and round up way. Those type crosses can be a disaster. But your dog is a cross of two LGD breeds, you did good.


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## Ridgetop

Did you read the book?  It has information in their on introducing new dogs to livestock.


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## Ridgetop

It is too bad you can't look at her before getting her, and see her with the animals.  Although the owner says she has been with livestock, it is always better to see the dog interacting with the livestock for yourself.  Only having been with horses doesn't mean much since livestock guardians do not always bond with horses.  I don't think there are too many predators between Florida and Georgie that prey on horses either.  Being with chickens - how?  Were the chickens loose and she interacted with them or they were in their yard and she was loose on the property?  Not losing any animals to predators if the poultry was in a coop, and the only other animals were horses would not be hard. 

Both those breeds are guardian breeds.  But you will have to introduce her to the goats if she has never been with goats or sheep.  She may decide she likes them, or she may decide to chase them if they run from her.  Do you have any more information on her?  Was she raised with sheep and goats?  Were her parents? 

She needs to get to know you and trust you as well as bonding to the new livestock she will have to guard.  Take it slow just as you would with a puppy.  The good thing is that you will not have to lock her up to protect her from predators like you would have to do with a puppy.  You will have to train her with the goats.  Penning her up next to them like you would with a puppy would be a good way to start.  Put her on a leash and take her into the pen with the goats so you can control her if she does not react properly to them.  Also walk her around the property borders (the fence line) to let her know the boundaries she is going to protect.  As you add new fenced pastures, you will have to do the same introduction to the new property borders.  Is she spayed?  Since she is 2 years old, you will want to get her fixed asap because of your dad's intact male Doberman.  You don't need a litter of Dobie x LGD puppies!  Ask the owner when she last came in season and you can figure 6 months from that date.  You don't want to spay a dog while she is in season since it can result in excessive blood loss.  Plan to have it done about 2 months after she comes out of season. 

If you received your copy of The Way of the Pack, try to read it before you bring the new dog home.  Hopefully the new dog will work out and bond easily to your goats.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> You have a full-on Livestock Guard Dog. Karakachan is a LGD breed. So you did good. The concern with a "half" is that the other half might be a Border Collie or a Blue Heeler, both stock dogs, but in the chase and round up way. Those type crosses can be a disaster. But your dog is a cross of two LGD breeds, you did good.


Yes, I did some reading about the breed, as i've never heard of it!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Ridgetop said:


> It is too bad you can't look at her before getting her, and see her with the animals.  Although the owner says she has been with livestock, it is always better to see the dog interacting with the livestock for yourself.  Only having been with horses doesn't mean much since livestock guardians do not always bond with horses.  I don't think there are too many predators between Florida and Georgie that prey on horses either.  Being with chickens - how?  Were the chickens loose and she interacted with them or they were in their yard and she was loose on the property?  Not losing any animals to predators if the poultry was in a coop, and the only other animals were horses would not be hard.
> 
> Both those breeds are guardian breeds.  But you will have to introduce her to the goats if she has never been with goats or sheep.  She may decide she likes them, or she may decide to chase them if they run from her.  Do you have any more information on her?  Was she raised with sheep and goats?  Were her parents?
> 
> She needs to get to know you and trust you as well as bonding to the new livestock she will have to guard.  Take it slow just as you would with a puppy.  The good thing is that you will not have to lock her up to protect her from predators like you would have to do with a puppy.  You will have to train her with the goats.  Penning her up next to them like you would with a puppy would be a good way to start.  Put her on a leash and take her into the pen with the goats so you can control her if she does not react properly to them.  Also walk her around the property borders (the fence line) to let her know the boundaries she is going to protect.  As you add new fenced pastures, you will have to do the same introduction to the new property borders.  Is she spayed?  Since she is 2 years old, you will want to get her fixed asap because of your dad's intact male Doberman.  You don't need a litter of Dobie x LGD puppies!  Ask the owner when she last came in season and you can figure 6 months from that date.  You don't want to spay a dog while she is in season since it can result in excessive blood loss.  Plan to have it done about 2 months after she comes out of season.
> 
> If you received your copy of The Way of the Pack, try to read it before you bring the new dog home.  Hopefully the new dog will work out and bond easily to your goats.



I know this thread is so confusing. I went back and forth from puppies, to the LGD that doesn't have goat experience, decided against her because i just cannot risk her injuring my new kids!  but now I found a Pyr/Karakachan who is already with goats and kids, chickens too, owner sent me lots of photos of her with the goats, and the family cat sitting on top of her. Too cute.  "Indy" is about to turn 2 years old, and she's lived with goats and chickens her whole life.  Owner says she has never lost any livestock with her on guard.  She has been with kidding does, which was important to me because one of my does is very pregnant.  I know I have to speculate a bit because people can say whatever they want but I did see photos.  Owner is getting out of the goat raising so she doesn't need her anymore. She also has another Pyr.  She is in North Carolina and offered to meet me in Georgia Wednesday morning.  I intend to open the book tonight and read as much as I can before I go to get her.    I think this is my best option at this point.
I will be getting her spayed, even though all the dogs around are fixed, including dads dobe.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

New kids this morning. First kidding i've ever witnessed. AMAZING!


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## Hens and Roos

Congrats!!


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## B&B Happy goats

Are you not in love now or what ! They are so adorable


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## Mike CHS

Congratulations on the new ones.


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## Baymule

Congrats! You are a Goatie Grandma!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

B&B Happy goats said:


> Are you not in love now or what ! They are so adorable


 I am SO in love!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> Congrats! You are a Goatie Grandma!


 haha I love it!!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Thank you all


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## Ridgetop

So glad that the dog you are getting has been with goats.  Easier for her to readjust in her new home since she will easily bond with her new charges. 

Congratulations on your twins.  Let us know how the dog responds to them when you bring her home.  You will like the book.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Ridgetop said:


> So glad that the dog you are getting has been with goats.  Easier for her to readjust in her new home since she will easily bond with her new charges.
> 
> Congratulations on your twins.  Let us know how the dog responds to them when you bring her home.  You will like the book.



Thank you!  I will let you all know. I plan on walking her all around the pasture on a leash first, and spend as long as I can out there when we get home. Me, my mom, and step father have a long drive ahead, about to leave in a minute and head towards Georgia! Lol my dad thinks I have lost my mind.


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## Baymule

Angeliki Manouselis said:


> Lol my dad thinks I have lost my mind.



Welcome to the club.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> Welcome to the club.


 Hahaha!! Thanks!!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Indie and I are on our way home


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## frustratedearthmother

YAY!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

frustratedearthmother said:


> YAY!


 I hope I did the right thing. I introduced her to everyone and she is FABULOUS. She doesn’t pay any attention to the chickens.  She gave my does total space with their babies. (They were snorting and not happy) but when a kid went over to her, she sniffed the baby, wagged her tail happily, looked at me, then walked off to keep sniffing around.  I know she must be exhausted from 10 hours on the road, I didn’t want her to have to work too hard tonight so chickens and goats are securely locked up and I put her blanket over some hay in her shelter with food and water and spent a bit of time with her, she is so amazingly sweet and she followed me around a bit, but I told her to “stay” and she let me leave without following me to the gate.  I hope I am doing the right things.  This is all so new to me and I’m a little sad that she is scared/lonely in a new place, she was with another LGD at her old home, and the last two of her 10 wk old pups.  I just don’t know if I have enough “work” for two LGDs. Maybe one day.  Should I be worried she will be bored and lonely since she was used to company?  My Mastiff mix Zena met her through the pasture fence briefly and they were really wonderful with each other.


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## frustratedearthmother

So happy for you!   She sounds fantastic!


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## Baymule

She is beautiful and she looks right at home.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Hopefully my goats settle down and they all bond soon.


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## B&B Happy goats

She is really pretty, nice job..finding her.... i take mine out into the goat area and we just sit and hang out together for a half hour or so at a time, they have gotten used to each other quite well. In fact one of my goats goes to the fence to entice Sophie to come and talk with her....but my dogs are not LGD and i would trust Missy with them if needed....... but Sophie....no way ! ....


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## Angeliki Manouselis

B&B Happy goats said:


> She is really pretty, nice job..finding her.... i take mine out into the goat area and we just sit and hang out together for a half hour or so at a time, they have gotten used to each other quite well. In fact one of my goats goes to the fence to entice Sophie to come and talk with her....but my dogs are not LGD and i would trust Missy with them if needed....... but Sophie....no way ! ....


Do you have LGDs and “house dogs”?


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## B&B Happy goats

Angeliki Manouselis said:


> Do you have LGDs and “house dogs”?


I have house dogs that are learning to love and protect chickens, rabbits and goats....they are all set with the goats as the goats have trained them, lol, furry things that run by Sophie are a tease but she is learning. And 85 lbs of english american bulldog just kinda wathchs the show and says "peace out" dude...i ain't  movin my big butt


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## Bruce

Congrats on the new dog and on finding one that has already spent a long time with goats and chickens!!



Angeliki Manouselis said:


> Lol my dad thinks I have lost my mind.


Better than losing your livestock!


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## Ridgetop

Most people think that we have _*all *_lost our minds, first by living on acreage and keeping livestock with all the work and expense that entails.  Then we get crazier by purchasing a large expensive guardian dog to protect our livestock.  _Then we prove that they *are *right by having to purchase a 2nd and 3rd LGD to assist the first LGD!    _

Rest assured that _*we*_ are the normal ones since we choose to live surrounded by nature, animals and our dogs, rather than shoulder to shoulder in tight neighborhoods or condos.  The work keeps our bodies fit (OK, semi-fit since  lot of us are older - actually in the PRIME OF LIFE!) and our minds sane.  We don't need therapists or drugs (and after buying livestock feed and dog food can't afford either one  )!


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## Bruce

Animals are better listeners anyway.


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## Ridgetop

Bruce said:


> Animals are better listeners anyway.



And they never judge us.


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## Baymule

Ridgetop said:


> The work keeps our bodies fit (OK, semi-fit since  lot of us are older - actually in the PRIME OF LIFE!) and our minds sane.  We don't need therapists or drugs (and after buying livestock feed and dog food can't afford either one  )!



Ain't THAT the truth!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

B&B Happy goats said:


> I have house dogs that are learning to love and protect chickens, rabbits and goats....they are all set with the goats as the goats have trained them, lol, furry things that run by Sophie are a tease but she is learning. And 85 lbs of english american bulldog just kinda wathchs the show and says "peace out" dude...i ain't  movin my big butt


 Nothin wrong with that! My mastiff/ cur doesn't chase my goats or chickens, she's very good with them, but she won't stay out all night with them as she's not naturally nocturnal like LGDs.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Bruce said:


> Congrats on the new dog and on finding one that has already spent a long time with goats and chickens!!
> 
> 
> Better than losing your livestock!


 I AGREE! LOL


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Had to post a pic.


 
I am having issues with her escaping the pasture area, my 1 acre is fully fenced, but i'm so afraid she is going to dig out of that too! Idk what to do.  She let some energy out with my Zena just now and then went to the pasture gate to be let back in and then she laid down...


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## misfitmorgan

Give her some time to adjust and bond with her new animals. Our LGD took about 3 weeks to seem "happy" here with us and ran off to the back of our property(we think)for 2 days but came back. They take time to adjust to new things and find their routine.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

misfitmorgan said:


> Give her some time to adjust and bond with her new animals. Our LGD took about 3 weeks to seem "happy" here with us and ran off to the back of our property(we think)for 2 days but came back. They take time to adjust to new things and find their routine.


Thank you. I’m trying to make her feel comfortable. I know she must be so confused. 
I definitely need to her her a tag for her collar and microchipped just in case. God forbid she does get out.


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## Bruce

Angeliki Manouselis said:


> I am having issues with her escaping the pasture area, my 1 acre is fully fenced, but i'm so afraid she is going to dig out of that too! Idk what to do.


How high is the pasture fence, is there hotwire above it, do you have a low hot wire on the inside to discourage digging?


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Bruce said:


> How high is the pasture fence, is there hotwire above it, do you have a low hot wire on the inside to discourage digging?



6 ft. No I don’t have hot wire.  She ended up staying in all night after I put a piece of lumber where she was digging. I think she just wanted to play with my other dog for a bit. I let her out today to play too. I don’t want her to resent being here or the livestock.


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## Bruce

6' should be high enough assuming there are not cross pieces she can get purchase on to climb. Sounds like you just need to deal with the digging.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Bruce said:


> 6' should be high enough assuming there are not cross pieces she can get purchase on to climb. Sounds like you just need to deal with the digging.


I had her out of the pasture all day with my house dog Zena they played and slept, not Zena does not want to be in the house either so she is outside, locked Indie in the pasture and she went and laid down with her goats and Zena is outside the fence near her. Lol I think she just needs time to let off some steam playing. Maybe she will be good and not get out tonight. We will see!


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## Bruce




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## Baymule

I think she will settle on and be just fine.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

She stayed in the pasture all night until my cousin got home from work and brought Zena in the house, then she dug under the gate.  Well it's a start. I fed her down by her goats and told her to stay then shoveled dirt back in the hole lol...  I think she will get it eventually.


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## Bruce

You might need to put a physical barrier at ground level under the gates. Obvious place to dig since unlike the fence itself, they don't go all the way to the ground.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Bruce said:


> You might need to put a physical barrier at ground level under the gates. Obvious place to dig since unlike the fence itself, they don't go all the way to the ground.


 I put a big piece of lumber on the ground, she didn't get out last night, I just let her out to hangout for the day, she loves to go jump in the pond lol I think she will integrate quickly now.


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Had to post. Everything is going so well. Haven’t lost any chickens ducks goats etc.  Indie and her goats have started bonding too.  She is also great pals with my farm dog Zena now, they play outside the pasture during the day. 
She is such a blessing to this farm.


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## frustratedearthmother

That is fantastic!  She looks so happy and so do her kids!


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## Baymule

That picture needs to be framed and hung on the wall!


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## Angeliki Manouselis

frustratedearthmother said:


> That is fantastic!  She looks so happy and so do her kids!


 It’s such a wonderful thing


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## Angeliki Manouselis

Baymule said:


> That picture needs to be framed and hung on the wall!


Oh yes! For sure!


----------

