# Crash course: LGDs



## DustyBoot (Jul 27, 2017)

Next month we will be acquiring three Kiko-Boer does and two GP/Anatolian mix guardian dogs. The dogs are 4.5 years old, brother and sister, spayed and neutered, been with goats their whole lives and -- according to the seller -- doing a great job. She's selling out so they'll be out of a job, and we figured a pair of pre-trained LGDs at a very reasonable price was not something to pass up. These will be our first goats. Our previous experience consists of having cows, horses and chickens when I was a teenager. Lots of reading, research, and talking to people, of course, but no experience yet. I've tried to learn what I can, but I'm hoping y'all can help me figure out what I don't know that I don't know. 

The dogs will stay with the goats, of course. Goats will have a secure night pen with a shelter, and during the day they'll go out on pasture in temporary paddocks made with movable electric fencing. Dogs are currently UTD on shots and heartworm. We do have ticks out here, so I was thinking maybe Serestro collars would be a good idea. I need to figure out an affordable but decent food, and how much they should get. And I'll keep up with heartworm pills and shots. I'm told they're good with children, and used to the current owner's pet dog. We'll take those introductions slowly and keep an eye on things. Not sure they've been exposed to poultry, and we don't have any yet, but when we do we plan to do the temporary electric paddock thing with them too, so they should be inside the dogs' perimeter but the dogs shouldn't have immediate access to them. 

I'm not sure how hard it will be for the dogs to adjust to the move. The goats we're getting are their goats, so that may help, but the owner also has sheep and we won't be taking those so it will be a smaller herd than they're used to. I suspect our property is smaller, too.


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## Baymule (Jul 27, 2017)

Number one, read this forum. There is tons of info here that will help you. LGD's are dogs of a different normal than other dogs. They are fabulous animals and you are so fortunate to be able to acquire these two, already trained. Kudos to you for wanting to learn more about them. As you read past posts, it may raise questions that you haven't thought about.  

These are independent thinkers and they know their job. You are about to fall madly in love with them and all their quirks.


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2017)

Poultry can be tough but it can be done. It is good that you will have the dogs without poultry for awhile, it will give them a chance to settle in and get used to a new routine and learn to trust you without you having to correct them about poultry.  Depending on how well they know "leave it" or "no" will tell you how to introduce them to poultry when the time comes. You might need to have them on a lead. Be prepared for some accidents as chickens are the ultimate squeaky toy but these dogs are older so they might not want to play as much.   Once you get them used to poultry you may find that when you bring in new birds the dogs have to be introduced to accept them. I would take my new chickens and put them in a 6x6 chain link kennel inside the goat pen for a few days. The dogs would then accept them as part of the flock/herd.  

You are fortunate to find a pair of LGDs and a herd at the same time, sounds like a perfect deal.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 28, 2017)

I'm paging slowly back through the archives trying to pick up everything I can. Love having it all here to read through!

One thing I've been wondering -- how will things work with the small daytime paddock? Do we put both dogs inside the electric fence even though it confines them from wandering the rest of the property? Or is there a way to set things up so they can go in and out but the goats can't? Eventually I'm hoping they'll guard the whole property since we'll have poultry penned out too.

I'm thrilled to have found these two, and so early on. I knew I wasn't up for starting with puppies, and I thought maybe if we were patient and lucky we'd find what we needed. Eventually I'm sure we'll look for a puppy "apprentice" to start learning the ropes for when they retire. 

I don't have previous experience with the breeds, but I always admire a dog that knows its job. I've repeatedly assured my husband that these will not be my "pets," although we'll take good care of them and I'm told they'll appreciate a little human interaction that doesn't interfere with their work.


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## Baymule (Jul 28, 2017)

If a dog can go through, so can a goat or sheep. These dogs belong with their goats. I believe they would be upset and stressed if you put them on the outside of the enclosure. 

It is perfectly ok to love on the dogs.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 28, 2017)

Well then, we'll plan on them staying in close with the goats and figure things out with poultry when we get there. Love the photo!


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## Baymule (Jul 28, 2017)

My dogs love children and would lay down their lives for them.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 28, 2017)

First question from reading archives: I see mention that it's best to teach them not to eat the placantas during kidding time. The seller proudly informed me that they stay right with the does and eat the placentas. How big a deal is this? Should I just let it go or try to retrain? The does we're getting are not bred so there won't be kids for at least six months (I'm planning on a month of quarantine, then depending on their condition and other factors I may try to find a buck we can use). So we'll have time to build rapport with the dogs before it might be an issue... but I don't know how they'll take it if I'm interfering with something they perceive as their job.


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2017)

It is ok if they eat the placentas as long as they don't pull them out of the doe, that is the main reason for teaching them to not eat it. Just watch the dogs when the time comes.

I have hot wire on all of my fences, one strand top and middle. My dogs go over gates to get from field to field, the goats do not. Probably a bad habit but if I don't want them to go over a particular gate I put a strand of hot wire across it and the dogs know that it is off limits. Also, search Google for jump gates. I haven't used in but I have been thinking about it as I have one dog that won't go over the gates at all and I would like her to have access to other places.

I love on all of my dogs, I wouldn't have it any other way and you never know when they might need to be in the house. They are smart, they know their jobs but mine love to see me and get a good hug and belly rub and they are still happy to stay with the goats.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 28, 2017)

Ahh, that makes sense. Given that these are Kiko-Boer does who I understand have been largely expected to fend for themselves I'm not going to be surprised if they kid in the pasture when I'm not looking. But I'll be watching as best I can. 

Googling jump gates turns up a lot of science-fiction, but I did find the right kind eventually.  We may have to put one of those in the couple of cross fences we'll have so that the dogs can get around as needed. 

Next question: we have a pet Border Collie. She lives in the house with us, and she's not outside by herself, but we do talk her for off-leash walks around the property. I intend to take measures to ensure she doesn't bother goats, but what else might I be able to do to ensure we don't have avoidable problems between her and the two LGDs? She's energetic, friendly, playful, 2 years old and 30-35 lbs. My experience so far is that she does well with other dogs, taking correction well, and not being overly aggressive herself. I wouldn't generally worry about her with other dogs, and I feel like I'd know how to proceed with introductions, but this is a different dynamic with two large dogs whose job is to guard goats against predators including other dogs.


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2017)

I don't have much (none) experience with that as my BCs never go out into the "wild". They have their own yard and that is where they stay. I have introduced my LGDs to them but I got all of mine as puppies. I can say that my oldest girl has no problem with the BCs at all and would probably let them into the goat pen. The other three not so much. While they all rubbed noses and spent some time together as pups those friendly introductions seem to be a thing of the past. It is usually the LGDs that run up to the house to the BCs yard and then they all get get grouchy and snippity through the fence. Neither side has ever breached the fence but it might not be pretty. And my BCs get along with other dogs, just not these dogs.  I don't think that the BCs in the goat field would be welcomed at all. 

@Southern by choice is the pro...perhaps she will have some tips for you.


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## Baymule (Jul 28, 2017)

You might have to keep them separate. Our male GP is just fine with our house/farm dogs and plays with them. Our female GP would attack them both.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jul 29, 2017)

_"I suspect our property is smaller, too."_

How big of a pasture are the goats going to be in?  How much land are you talking here? 

The number one reason LGDs start having issues, jump out or over fences, wander off, dig out, start chewing on stock, is because of boredom usually brought about by being penned up in too small of an area for days - weeks - months - i.e., their whole life.  They need mental stimulation and need to stretch their legs and be able to make patrols. Remember that LGDs come originally from countries where transhumance is practiced, and the shepherd lives with his flocks full time, 24/7 - he does not split to a day job. In transhumance, the shepherd and the flocks travel over miles.  LGDs are not penned in with flocks. They travel with the herd.  AND the shepherd is with them, all the time.  This is the history of these dogs, and what is in their blood, their genetics.  Be sure you spend time with the dogs in the goats with them.  They need to understand that you are part of the equation too not just observing from outside.  It is not going to ruin those dogs if they come out of the goats, make rounds of your place as well.  You don't indicate what your predator load is, or talk about your terrain and area, which all plays into this as well, but if this is a small hobby farm set up, you are not going to ruin those dogs bringing them out for grooming, attention, check overs, etc.  They need to connect with you, not just the goats.  That is very important.

Don't make the BC introduction in the pasture with the LGDs in the goats.  Bring the LGDs out of the goats.  I wrote a paper on this subject that was published by sheep! Magazine in July/August 2015.  Read it: it is short and to the point.


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## goatgurl (Jul 29, 2017)

I have a small flock of sheep and dairy goats on 60 acres in the wilds of arklahoma and have two maremma lgd's watching over them.  I agree that boredom can cause a lot of problems with these dogs and it is up to you to see they are occupied.  since you are getting older dogs you shouldn't have much of a problem with them.  I also agree with first introducing the bc to the lgd's in your yard not with the goats.  and I would introduce them from day one so the lgd's know that she belongs there too.  after they are familiar with each other then take the bc in the goat pen with you on leash to control the situation.   I have a small mutt puppy who is all of 15 pounds and 14 years old who goes everywhere I go, including the goat pasture.  I also have and English shepherd who is my general farm dog and she also goes with me anywhere on the farm.  both lgd's were introduced to them the first day and I have never had a problem.   I pet and love on my lgd's all the time and they eat it up.  in my humble opinion it is wrong to never give them any time or attention. good luck with your plans, I hope every thing works out for you.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 29, 2017)

The seller says the dogs play with her pet pit bull, so I'm hopeful. If it doesn't work out, we'll just keep them separate. No need for the BC to be anywhere near the goats; but if we can introduce them well to help them get along if they do cross paths, my life is easier. 

Brenda, thank you for the link! Definitely some food for thought, although our Border Collie is sadly lacking in herding instinct and is just a pet. We got her from rescue as a puppy when we thought we'd be in the suburbs for the rest of our life. She's smart and very trainable -- she was going to be my agility dog -- but so far I've never seen the inclination to herd things. She might actually be a mix, but darned if I can tell what by looking at her. 

Our land is 14 acres in central Texas (Georgetown/Taylor, north of Austin). It's mixed open grassy pasture and some very overgrown wooded areas, backing up to a small-ish river on the south. We have about 300 acres of future park land to the west of us (part of it is in corn, the part closer to the river is woods), and the 16 acres on the east of us is mostly left natural and owned by a few families who like to come out and camp by the river. To the north we have a neighbor with a few acres of flat grassy field, then the highway. So we're pretty isolated with the woods and the river, which makes for a lot of wildlife activity. This morning we sat on the back porch and watched a mother coyote with her four pups romping around out in the field. It's not unusual for us to run across coyotes in the mornings or the evenings, although they do disappear quickly if they notice we're close. We hear a pack howling most nights and they're not far away. We also have raccoons, possums, ringtailed cats, possibly bobcats, and the UPS driver says he saw a mountain lion near our driveway earlier this year (seems unlikely but far from impossible). Red-tailed hawks, caracara,s and owls, too, for whatever they're worth. So we're not talking about bears and wolves, but the dogs will be earning their keep.

We'll be a small family operation, and the lady selling the dogs mentioned that she hoped to find them a home where they'll get a little attention and interaction. They do their work first, of course, but she's done some basic training with them and made sure they're easy to handle for medical treatment, etc. So I'd like to be sure they continue to get some attention, grooming as needed, and maybe a little reminder obedience training if it seems necessary (come, sit, walk on a leash). I know they're not pets, but I like animals in general and dogs in particular. 

Right now we're fencing the perimeter and a single cross fence (and the yard areas around each house); more than that isn't feasible for us yet. My goal is to work on improving our pastures by managing grazing, so we'll be using movable electric fences to create temporary paddocks inside the perimeter fence and moving the goats around regularly. We'd also like to use the goats to clear the underbrush in the wooded areas. My dad has cleared some paths through with his Bobcat so that we can run the electric fence around sections of it. We don't yet have a night pen built, but we'll be working on that quickly. I'm not sure of the best way to manage the dogs and the small moving paddock system. I don't want to confine them unduly; I'd like to have them patrolling and free to do their jobs. But I do want to manage where the goats are. I think I'd like the night pen to be built with a jump gate so that the dogs can get in and out. It sounds like the male is a patroller and the female is a watcher, so I want the make able to come and go. If you have any advice for preventing boredom I'd be happy to hear it! I admire the work these dogs do and I want to learn to work with them so they can do their jobs effectively.

In addition to all of the above, a new question: How hard is it going to be for them to accept new ownership? When we bring them here, are they going to see us as a threat to their goats because we're relative strangers? How can we best help them learn to accept us as their new partners?


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## babsbag (Jul 29, 2017)

I have two BC x Queensland Heelers that are now 10 years old, they are sisters. When we first got them we lived in the city and they only had our back yard to play in. They wore a rut around our plum tree playing chase. They would run in a circle, stop and give each other the stink eye and change directions, it was hilarious to watch. We used to call it "making butter". If you are familiar with the old politically incorrect story of Little Black Sambo you will understand that reference. Later I did agility with them, they  were much better at it than I was so we never got too far. I ended up with a bum knee and had to quit and now they are just my house dogs. They haven't herded a thing in their lives but I do believe that that instinct is in them. They have a very high prey drive too. They are ok with my cats but heaven help a chicken or squirrel that enters their yard.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 29, 2017)

Babsbag -- I've had Border Collies before (and known others) who, even just as pets, showed some herding instinct. You could see it when they played soccer with us, when they played with other dogs, etc. I just don't see it in Livi. She doesn't do the eye thing, and she doesn't have that compulsion to get around in front of anything that's moving. She's got the Border Collie smarts and the attitude, just not the herding.

If it helps any, this is the satellite view of the property. The building to the left is a pole barn for equipment, hay, etc. The middle building is the main house, and the building way off on the right is the secondary house. In the woods we have a lot of big pecans and burr oaks, but pretty dense underbrush. Eventual goal is to clear out the small stuff and just leave the big trees behind.


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## babsbag (Jul 29, 2017)

The goats will clear it for you with no problems. Mine do a fabulous job of tree trimming. 

Interesting shape to that property.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 30, 2017)

Yes, it's an odd shape. I understand it was originally one piece with the narrow bit to the north and the backward-L-shape bit to the east. The guy who took the piece to the east mostly wanted the stuff by the river, and I guess whoever took the section we now own mostly wanted land but didn't want to be cut off completely from the river. I've wondered if the guy to the east of us might be interested in having our goats clear some of his property eventually.


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## DustyBoot (Jul 31, 2017)

@Southern by choice , in an old thread somewhere I ran across a post from you commenting that dogs not being bonded to the land could be a cause of problems. The dogs we're getting are bonded to the stock, and we're even bringing some of their specific stock with us. But obviously they're not bonded to our land yet. Would you be willing to give me some tips on how we can help that process?


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 1, 2017)

@DustyBoot - daily patrols of your place with the LGDs at your side are a must.  Let them "meet" your property not just the stock.  And be a part of that.  Build a great team.  Don't just kick them out there and say "good luck, go explore".  You go with them, too.

My five "mantras":

*Patience *– _do not expect too much, too soon and give the pup time to mature_
*Compassion* – _do not use harsh or cruel training methods or gadgets_
*Respect *– _respect shown to your dog will be returned_
*Trust* – _allow the pup to show you what he is capable of doing_
*Consistency* – _dogs, like people, appreciate a routine and a level of predictability
_
Day at a time.  Don't be discouraged about set backs or days when it all blows up in your face.  This is for the long term, a long term commitment.  Pay attention, don't get hung up on the small stuff so that it blows the big picture.  I know I'm speaking in general terms, but just learn to let go, let your dogs show you what they can do. Get rid of the micromanaging mind set that too many people have.  TRUST the dogs and see what they can show you. Best of luck and keep us posted!


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## DustyBoot (Aug 2, 2017)

We usually walk the fences every evening, so we can take them with us for that.

I will do my best to keep those five mantras in mind. And those are good for more than just LGDs!  

I'm new to goats and LGDs, so I'm trusting the dogs to help train me. Since they've been doing this for years and their current owner says they do it well, I want to see how they work so I can provide support and encouragement without getting in their way.

As soon as we get them, I'll be posting pictures! The owner has sent a couple and they're lovely dogs.


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