# Question on using Anti-Toxin and CD T Vaccine



## battygoatlady (Jul 15, 2009)

I'm a newbie to goats and found out the hard way what Tetanus does to a goat.  We lost one shortly after bringing him home to this deadly disease.  By the time we took him to the vet he was too far gone - we tried to save him but no luck.  My vet told us we must have tetanus in our ground so anytime our goats get a wound of any sort or we do a procedure such as banding to automatically give an anti toxin shot and it will protect them for two weeks.  We also made sure all of our babies had the CD T vaccination as well.  After reading another post on this website it doesn't sound like this is true??  My vet is wonderfull with animals and has treated goats for awhile now.  But I figure it doesn't hurt to get a second opinon when your talking about saving your babies lives.  Thanks for any info.


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## helmstead (Jul 15, 2009)

Your vet was correct, the post here wasn't.  The antitoxin lasts 2 weeks, which is also how long it takes the toxiod to be effective...so if you do both you're covered both long and short term.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2009)

I think I know the thread you were talking about...and I think it was probably me who gave you doubt.  What didn't make sense to me lay in my belief that the tetanus anti-toxin wore off quickly...too quickly to battle a tetanus infection that may take a few days to set up..

If, however, your veterinarian said the tetanus anti-toxin provides protection for up to two weeks, it makes absolutely perfect sense to administer it when tagging, castrating, or disbudding..  

The problem was, I didn't realize it lasted that long!  You learn something new everyday.  

FWIW...I was actually trying to get the person with whom I was having that conversation to tell if/why they gave anti-toxin when castrating or tagging, but...as you may have noticed...I was politely asked to move along and find another topic before that could happen.  Not sure why, but...oh well.


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## helmstead (Jul 15, 2009)

I thought I might be prudent to also say that the C/D antitoxin is NOT long acting - you have to dose this every 12-24 hrs when in crisis - and we use C/D antitoxin on a goat even if they have had the toxiod as this is never 100% effective, so we don't take chances if we've had a bloat/feed room break in/etc.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I thought I might be prudent to also say that the C/D antitoxin is NOT long acting - you have to dose this every 12-24 hrs when in crisis - and we use C/D antitoxin on a goat even if they have had the toxiod as this is never 100% effective, so we don't take chances if we've had a bloat/feed room break in/etc.


Excellent point -- that's where I was screwing up.

I always went by the old...

Toxoid:  to avoid
Anti-toxin:  in need of fixin'

...school of thought and applied what I knew about C/D anti-toxin's short-acting characteristics to both C/D _and_ Tetanus anti-toxins.  Didn't know the Tetanus anti-toxin provided protection for 10-14 days.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 21, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I think I know the thread you were talking about...and I think it was probably me who gave you doubt.  What didn't make sense to me lay in my belief that the tetanus anti-toxin wore off quickly...too quickly to battle a tetanus infection that may take a few days to set up..
> 
> If, however, your veterinarian said the tetanus anti-toxin provides protection for up to two weeks, it makes absolutely perfect sense to administer it when tagging, castrating, or disbudding..
> 
> ...


I did answer your question on that post and hope that it wasn't me that made you think to not respond on it anymore.  Anti-Toxin is one of the greatest medications to have for goats the other is my personal preference LA-200.  A shot that lasts three days and covers a lot of probelms that a goat could have like hoof rot, pneumonia and other bacterial infections and it does not cause quite as much disruption in the rumen as Penicillian does.

Chris

Edit:  After 30 minutes of looking I found the other post.  I am thinking that F.K. meant to start a discussion on that topic.  Which would have been a good thing to do since there was confusion.  Oh well hind sight is 20/20


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2009)

Griff said:
			
		

> I did answer your question on that post and hope that it wasn't me that made you think to not respond on it anymore.


Naw..  



			
				Griff said:
			
		

> Anti-Toxin is one of the greatest medications to have for goats the other is my personal preference LA-200.  A shot that lasts three days and covers a lot of probelms that a goat could have like hoof rot, pneumonia and other bacterial infections and it does not cause quite as much disruption in the rumen as Penicillian does.


Ever used Bio-Mycin 200?  A buddy of mine with a lot of goat experience won't use LA200 anymore because he "stroked out" a couple of sick goats with it..  They say LA200 burns pretty bad, and I wouldn't doubt that his batch was old and oxidized, which would certainly make it even worse..  Apparently the pain was bad enough that a few of his went into shock and died.  

My experience has been that, with a 22ga needle, they don't even take their head out of the feed pan when you stick'em with Bio-Mycin..  The active ingredients and dosage levels are exactly the same as LA200, too...  The only difference is that Bio-Mycin is "formulated with a 'no sting' carrier."

A 100ml bottle at Jeffers is like $13, which is actually $2 cheaper than name-brand LA200..


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 22, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ever used Bio-Mycin 200?


Just used it today.  With a 20 ga needle.  On a huge Kiko buck and he didn't kill me!  I am thinking I will switch to it next time!
Here is the buck...






Thanks CM

Chris


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## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2009)

Quite a set of handlebars on that guy..  

Bio-Mycin -->


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## battygoatlady (Jul 24, 2009)

Okay I'm confused again - Nothing new there - So the anti-toxin is or is not long lasting?  One person wrote it is not and needs to be administered daily,  Someone else wrote that it last three days.  My vet said 12-14 days.  Does it depend on the anti-toxin you use??  I bought mine at TSC (cheaper then vet) but it gives very little directions or information - cannot remember the name offhand.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 27, 2009)

bgl said:
			
		

> Okay I'm confused again - Nothing new there  - So the anti-toxin is or is not long lasting?  One person wrote it is not and needs to be administered daily,  Someone else wrote that it last three days.  My vet said 12-14 days.  Does it depend on the anti-toxin you use??  I bought mine at TSC (cheaper then vet) but it gives very little directions or information - cannot remember the name offhand.


When it comes to goats, there are two primary anti-toxins with which to familiarize yourself:

1) Tetanus anti-toxin, and 
2) Clostridium Perfringins types C & D anti-toxin, aka, CD anti-toxin.

Tetanus Anti-Toxin provides protection against tetanus infection for about two weeks.  

C/D Anti-Toxin quickly knocks down the toxin produced by the bacteria Clostridium Perferingins type C & D, but only lasts a few hours.  It must be given often if your goat is acutely suffering from a case of enterotoxemia.  

I may have been the one who confused you because I always thought tetanus anti-toxin was short-lived like CD antitoxin...but it's not.  Tetanus anti-toxin gives protection for about two weeks.


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## MissJames (Aug 5, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> bgl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is an excellent explanation.Thank you. I guess the confusion comes in because the annual vaccination is CD and tetanus combined.Is that right? So the antitoxins,if needed, would be more for each specific disease.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 6, 2009)

MissJames said:
			
		

> I guess the confusion comes in because the annual vaccination is CD and tetanus combined.Is that right? So the antitoxins,if needed, would be more for each specific disease.


Bingo...


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## cmjust0 (Aug 6, 2009)

<  >

I had a disturbing conversation with a vet about this once...  I was calling around looking for CD Anti-Toxin, and the receptionist at one vet's office (not my regular vet) said they had it.  I asked how much, and she said it was really cheap..

Well...CD Anti-Toxin usually isn't cheap, so I asked her to double check that it was CD and not Tetanus anti-toxin..  She came back and said it was both.  I told her that I thought she may have confused toxoid with anti-toxin...  She puts me on hold..

Next thing I know, I'm talking to the vet himself..  He says to me that they do have anti-toxin.  I ask if he means CD or Tetanus anti-toxin, and he says something like "yeah, it's the anti-toxin" and reiterates that he's _not_ talking about toxoid..  

Well, that wasn't what I asked..  

I tell him again, very directly, that I'm looking for CD Anti-toxin..  He half-laughingly says "Yeah, I've got what you need" -- like *I* was the idiot.

I asked again if what he had was TETANUS or CD antitoxin...he proceeds to tell me that I'm confused.  At one point, he actually advised that I was supposed to give tetanus anti-toxin, even though I was suspecting bloat and a possible impending CD bloom.  The reasoning behind his advice was something about it being the anti-toxin that goes with the CD/T toxoid...or something like that.

I tell him that there are two seperate anti-toxins...CD _and_ Tetanus..  Again, he acts like I'm confused and says I'm thinking of toxoid, because it's the toxoid that has the CD _and_ Tetanus.  My mistake for using the word "_and_," I guess.



Long story short, I eventually gave up trying to educate this VETERINARIAN that there were, indeed, two anti-toxins.  I'm pretty sure he got off the phone and shook his head like he'd just spoken with the biggest dummy in the world...

Oh well.  Can't win'em all.

</  >


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## vaden boers (Aug 11, 2009)

hello iwas reading the posts on anti toxin , maybe i can add some light , the c& d anti toxin is a short term fast acting , cd&t , is is used in cases requiring a boost or for bottle babies who dont have the anitbodies from moms milk , ( this is not the colostrum , but the antibodies they get while nursing ) , now if you use the anti toxin on a vacinated goat it negates the cd&t vaccine so you have to booster it after 2 weeks . while we are on the subject of cd&t alot of goat folks are seeing goats dieing from overeaters , because the cd&t doesnt cover all strains a goat can get , so folks please if y9ou are not using covexin 8 , or calvary 9 please switch , to many goats have been lost to this and phuemonia this year by foks who didnt know or vacinate .


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 12, 2009)

vaden boers said:
			
		

> because the cd&t doesnt cover all strains a goat can get , so folks please if you are not using covexin 8 , or calvary 9 please switch , to many goats have been lost to this and phuemonia this year by foks who didnt know or vacinate .


Could you please explain what these two vaccines offer that the CDT doesn't? Phnuemonia has hit GA hard this year and with shows coming up in the next couple of months I would like to get my gals covered. Thank you!!!


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## ksalvagno (Aug 12, 2009)

It offers extra clostridial strains. CDT only offers clostridium C & D. The 8 way offers 6 more. Just make sure you have epinepherine right there ready. More to have a reaction to.


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## vaden boers (Aug 15, 2009)

this is what i use 

Covexin 8: For the Clostridial diseases. 3ml SQ first dose, and 2ml Sq in 21 days, then once annually.

Super Poly Bac B Somnus: for pneumonia prevention: This is a cattle vaccine, and is a 1ml  dose SQ for goats, repeat in 14-21 days with .05 ml . It works wonders to protect against Pasturella hemolytica, Multocida, and A6, Haemophilus Somnus, and Samonella.

hope this helps yes north carolina has also been hit by pheunomina  this year too , lots of oflks learning the hard way .


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## trestlecreek (Aug 15, 2009)

Colorado Serum has a pneumonia vaccine for goats.

For the cd/t vaccination, the booster should be given every 6 months. Once a year is not enough. Tilters in the goat drop off dramatically within 3 months.

The anti-toxin is for immediate protection where antibody levels have not been created yet in the body.


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 26, 2009)

I am having bad reactions with the CDT at the injection site on my Nubians. They swell, get oozy and look nasty for a week. My Nigis are fine. I would like to try the Covexin 8 to see if we have a different responce.
Any Suggestions?

Also...SILLY QUESTION....does the Covexin8 cover Tetnus? I was looking on the Jeffers site and couldn't find it in the description or is "tetani"...tetnus??
From Jeffers:
_Clostridium Chauvoei, Septicum Haemolyticum, Novyi, Tetani, Perfringens Types C & D Bacterin-Toxoid 
(Schering-Plough) For vaccination of healthy sheep and cattle._


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## cmjust0 (Aug 26, 2009)

> ...is "tetani"...tetnus??
> 
> From Jeffers:
> Clostridium Chauvoei, Septicum Haemolyticum, Novyi, Tetani, Perfringens Types C & D Bacterin-Toxoid
> (Schering-Plough) For vaccination of healthy sheep and cattle.


Yep, that's tetanus.  In fact, all those are Clostridials...perhaps a bit confusing on Jeffers's part.

Could have read:

Clostridium Chauvoei, Clostridium Septicum, Clostridium Haemolyticum......etc.

Just out of curiosity...on the weeping ooziness...are you perhaps using a bottle that was drawn out of before, then put back in the fridge?  I only ask because I've seen half-used bottles of biologicals in folks' med fridges before, even though all those bottles basically say pitch it after first use.


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## helmstead (Aug 26, 2009)

Kel - when you start using Cov 8, etc...make sure you get some single doses of Epi from one of the vets, K?  Put it in a dorm fridge in your barn, K?  While it is usually the tet portion of the vaccine that causes shock, I have heard numerous reports of the vaccines containing multiple closts causing it more frequently.

Is Belle also having the site reaction or is it Silver and Tsuki?  Just curious...as after the problem I had with Booyah, I was told reactivity often runs in family lines.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 26, 2009)

Yes, definitely get epinephine/adrenaline..  I wouldn't recommend any vaccines until you have it, frankly.  

We had one very nearly collapse from anaphylaxis after a C/D-T shot..  Came out of the stanchion fine, but then she started slobbering and vocalizing 'incoherently,' if that makes sense..  Just weird, random noises..  Next thing ya know, she's wobbling, just about to collapse.  I freaked and started yelling at the goat, trying to startle her..  My wife freaked and started yelling at ME saying "WHAT DO WE DO?!!"  

I yell back "NOTHING!!!  WE DON'T HAVE EPI!  THERE'S NOTHING WE ***CAN*** DO!!!"  

Just about that time, the other goats broke into the stall (for the grain) and started bumping her around..  Normally that would be a pain, but this time...  Well, the shocky goat held up just long enough to start getting bumped around amid all the ruckus and as best we can figure, she panicked and dumped a bunch of adrenaline into her own system.  

When she snapped back, she snapped back quick and went _waaaaay_ to the other side of the pendulum..  She started flitting around first one way, then another, and we literally couldn't touch her with a 10' pole for a good 15 minutes..  She was baaaing like she'd just been attacked by a bear or something and was breathing extremely rapidly..  She was just truly upset...like, rocked to the core by what had just happened.  More upset than either of us have probably ever seen a goat.

We got really lucky...had we not been paying close enough attention to start a ruckus, and had the other goats not broken in and started bumping her around, I'm pretty sure she'd be dead right now.

So, ya...get the epi..  Also, even though anaphylaxis usually happens like RIGHT NOW when you give the shot, it's not a bad idea to keep a close eye on each goat you vax for at least 5-10 minutes afterward..  Sometimes it can be delayed a bit.

To this day, vaccinations scare the hell out of me.


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 26, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Is Belle also having the site reaction or is it Silver and Tsuki?  Just curious...as after the problem I had with Booyah, I was told reactivity often runs in family lines.


I have only had reactions with the babies (Tsuki and Zin) ???   I gave them in the tufft of skin near their front leg. Maybe a different location would be better?

I have a bottle of epi that my husband (paramedic) got for me. My Vet refuses to dispense epi. (Kate wanna weigh in on him? )
It reads 1:1000 (1mg/ml) He figured the dose at .15 per goat. Is that right?

_cmjust0 wrote:
Just out of curiosity...on the weeping ooziness...are you perhaps using a bottle that was drawn out of before, then put back in the fridge? _

Yes....didn't even know I couldn't reuse the bottle.


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## helmstead (Aug 26, 2009)

Sounds like you're probably injecting the vaccine into fat instead of under the skin, which will cause a reaction as fat has very little bloodflow and the vaccine as well as any germs you pushed in with the needle just 'sit' there for awhile.  There is a little fat deposit right where you're aiming for...

When doing SQ for anything, do it high on the body...and make sure your tent is good so that you're not inadvertently injecting into that layer of fat on the muscles.  Being high on the body gives fluids somewhere to go.

I do mine IM anyway...

It's Dr T you can't get Epi from, right??  Sorry, can't help ya there!  At least your DH can!  Epi is 1 ml per 100 lbs...


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## Laney (Aug 26, 2009)

Where would we get those new C/D vaccines in North Carolina are they something that TSC would carry or will we have to order online?

I have three little ones that I'll have to give first vaccinations to soon and I'd like to start them out right.  Is this something my vet will have, or I can request from her?  Also do I get the epi from her?

Thank you,
Laney


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## cmjust0 (Aug 26, 2009)

FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> _cmjust0 wrote:
> Just out of curiosity...on the weeping ooziness...are you perhaps using a bottle that was drawn out of before, then put back in the fridge? _
> 
> Yes....didn't even know I couldn't reuse the bottle.


That _may_ also have something to do with the reactions..  I really don't know for sure, though, as I've never re-used an opened container of biologicals..  

I almost did it once quite a while back when I had a few CCs left in a bottle, but then it occurred to me that it had been sitting around the fridge a while..  When I started looking for the expiration, I saw "Use entire contents when first opened" and was like...woops.

Easy mistake to make, I think.

So, perhaps it's what Helmstead said...or perhaps it's because the bottle was re-used...or perhaps it was both.


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 26, 2009)

OK.  I know how to give a vaccine and I don't think I got fat tissue. I hate giving it high because they get a knot forever! Looks horrible.  
I totally missed the don't re-use on the bottle.  DER!
Sheesh! I think this was the first time I actually had left over to re-use. Won't do that again.

Thanks!


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## helmstead (Aug 26, 2009)

Go IM - no knot


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

Does anyone know where you can purchase this anti-toxin? I'd like to keep it on hand (what is its "shelf" life like? as in in the fridge...). I went to the Co-op to pick up fencing supplies today and inquired about it there and they said they had never heard of it!! (meanwhile, one employee was telling a lady on the phone that not having the Mareks vaccine for her chicks wasn't the end of the world, IME if its going to hit, its going to hit good so I'd be having the vaccine...ugh they give all sorts of bad advice at the co op). 

Would I have to get it from a vet?


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 26, 2009)

Jeffers livestock supply,  Hoegers, and Caprine Supply all carry it. There are some other livestock supply catalogs that carry it, too, but my memory has failed.
Anyone else?


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

Can't order from any of them, I'm in Canada. They don't ship cross border to Canada, at least not vaccines/shots/medications.

I think I need to petition the mods to change my title to read "I live in Canada!"


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> helmstead said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With dogs we always give vaccines on the "scruff" of the neck, so on the top of the neck/back of the neck. You get a little flap, stick the needle in, and in it goes. Just make sure you dont make it come out the other side, I've done that before with dogs and it sucks cause you have to prick them a second time


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## cmjust0 (Aug 27, 2009)

Our local TSC carries C/D antitoxin.  

Here's a link. 

In case the link doesn't work, the sku# is 2216306.  I would say that's probably the same across all TSC stores.

The thing about TSC is that I don't necessarily trust that all their biologicals go in the cooler when they're supposed to....  I don't have any evidence to back that up, but I remember reading once that someone saw some biologicals sitting unrefrigerated in a TSC stockroom once..  When I thought about that...then thought about the employees at my local TSC....yeah, makes sense.  Wouldn't doubt it, anyway..


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 27, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Our local
> The thing about TSC is that I don't necessarily trust that all their biologicals go in the cooler when they're supposed to....  I don't have any evidence to back that up, but I remember reading once that someone saw some biologicals sitting unrefrigerated in a TSC stockroom once..  When I thought about that...then thought about the employees at my local TSC....yeah, makes sense.  Wouldn't doubt it, anyway..


Exactly why I don't shop for anything important at TSC. There are so many direct shippers of biologicals. 

Lupine: Check with these people then ask then where to buy Vaccines if they can't help you. Good luck! 
www.canadalivestock.com


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## lupinfarm (Aug 27, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Our local TSC carries C/D antitoxin.
> 
> Here's a link.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Believe it or not, my TSC doesn't carry biologicals! ...  I'll have to try the Campbellford Co-op tomorrow.


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