# Ram Scrotal Girth



## Ponker (Jul 12, 2016)

According to a paper I found, the measurement of a ram's scrotum can determine the fertility of his daughters. 

I have two rams with one coming on the 15th of July, 2016. As of today, I have not measured my rams but am intrigued by this claim. Size of rams vary by breed. I have noticed that the Katahdin rams which are larger in stature carry smaller testicles. So I wonder if this is a one size fits all breeds type measurement...

And please note that the measurement table is in centimeters not inches. 

Has anyone measured their ram's testicles? If so, is the table accurate?


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## norseofcourse (Jul 12, 2016)

I don't have enough sheep to contribute any meaningful data on daughter fertility (I've only kept one of Elding's daughters), but I'll measure Elding tomorrow to compare to the chart.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 12, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> I don't have enough sheep to contribute any meaningful data on daughter fertility (I've only kept one of Elding's daughters), but I'll measure Elding tomorrow to compare to the chart.


The things that livestock folk do…


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## Southern by choice (Jul 12, 2016)

We all know the worst part is we have these discussions everywhere and anywhere. No wonder people think we all just need "a break from the farm"... and we look at them like they are nuts! 

Ok - even worse- I'm gonna go look at my bucks tomorrow.
This kinda falls into the addicts forum/thread. SMH


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## babsbag (Jul 13, 2016)

I am sure that our rams and bucks will be thrilled when we all show up with a tape measure.


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## Sheepshape (Jul 13, 2016)

Look big enough to me!


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## babsbag (Jul 13, 2016)

Ponker said:


> According to a paper I found, the measurement of a ram's scrotum can determine the fertility of his daughters.



What exactly do they mean? That the ewe will have twins, triplets, etc. or that she will produce for more years? I don't get it.  I certainly have no problem with fertile goats; they just look at a buck and they are bred, they look twice and they have triplets.  But seriously, is fertility in sheep that much of a problem? What am I missing.


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## Sheepshape (Jul 13, 2016)

babsbag generally,no.


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## norseofcourse (Jul 13, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> We all know the worst part is we have these discussions everywhere and anywhere. No wonder people think we all just need "a break from the farm"... and we look at them like they are nuts!


Oh, trust me, I am very careful about where and to whom I talk about certain things!!  I am perfectly capable of boring anyone with stories and pictures of my sheep (retribution for those endless ones of kids and grandkids I'm subjected to), but things like this are shared with a select few....


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## samssimonsays (Jul 13, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> Oh, trust me, I am very careful about where and to whom I talk about certain things!!  I am perfectly capable of boring anyone with stories and pictures of my sheep (retribution for those endless ones of kids and grandkids I'm subjected to), but things like this are shared with a select few....


 I agree. On both counts of boring others and sharing with A Very select few!


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## Roving Jacobs (Jul 13, 2016)

My sheep industry guide says for rams 8-14 months: <30 cm is questionable, 30-36 cm is satisfactory, and >36 cm is exceptional. For rams >14 months: <32 cm is questionable, 32-40 cm is satisfactory and >40 cm is exceptional. 

It looks like scrotal circumference is correlated with body weight so rams with larger scrotal circumference are bigger and more mature than rams the same age with smaller circumference. I guess that would also mean that rams with a larger scrotal circumference would produce ewes that got bigger and matured faster theoretically.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 13, 2016)

@Sheepshape 

 Great answer!


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## babsbag (Jul 13, 2016)

@Sheepshape  

I see that your sheep are just as flirtatious as my goats.


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## babsbag (Jul 13, 2016)

I find myself sitting at the local restaurant having these discussions with a good friend and we are totally oblivious to everyone...and then the waitress will come by with coffee or food and the looks we get. One day we were talking castrations and banding vs. cutting, another day we were re-positioning kids and checking for afterbirth...and the doe was eating it.   We see each other so seldom and she is one of the few that can relate to my life so we have some interesting conversations, no matter the place.

Now if the article is saying that the daughters will grow bigger, faster, better, and be ready to breed sooner I might understand the study.


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## Sheepshape (Jul 13, 2016)

The ewe I posted the pics of was NEVER (knowingly) in the field with our rams. She was 12 at the time and retired, having produced about 26 lambs in her time. Either one of our rams or a neighbour's ram paid her a visit, and the result was as shown   .....she went on to produce healthy triplets. So,fertility...usually NOT an issue.


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## Ponker (Jul 13, 2016)

I'm interested to know the meaning of the fertility statement as well. Finns are known for their prolificacy so any insight into multiple births would be welcomed. 

I went out and measured my two boys. 
Georgie was born on Feb 4, 2016.  He measured 27cm. So according to the study I posted, Georgie is found lacking. Holstein was born March 12, 2015 and hit the tape at 31cm. According to the study I posted he is fine...so far. 



 



Roving Jacobs said:


> My sheep industry guide says for rams 8-14 months: <30 cm is questionable, 30-36 cm is satisfactory, and >36 cm is exceptional. For rams >14 months: <32 cm is questionable, 32-40 cm is satisfactory and >40 cm is exceptional.



According this study, both my rams are on the low end.  

My tiny little Nigerian Buck, Houdini measured in at a whopping 17cm. LOL



 
He was so difficult to take a picture of! I could have had a thousand pictures of his nose. He was born March 3, 2016.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 13, 2016)

I am missing something... how do you measure?

See what you started...........


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## Ponker (Jul 13, 2016)

Measure the circumference of the testicles. The measurement should be greatest point. I used a sewing tape and measured my rams first. Such good boys. My neighbors probably think I'm a nutjob. The boys were so calm and casual about it as I was on my knees behind them getting the measurement. Then I followed them around getting pictures of their backsides. I thought I heard my neighbor call her kids to the backyard at that point. LOL 

My little buck Houdini was the most difficult one to measure. Had to get someone to hold him. He's only 4 and half months old so he's smaller than the cat. LOL But oh what a cutie! Even has little waddles. 

I do wonder if there are studies to back this up. There certainly must be. I'm going to look into it and see if there is any difference in measurements considered for the bigger breeds or the smaller breeds. Certainly mini Cheviots wouldn't be held to these measurements - or would they... hmmm


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## Roving Jacobs (Jul 13, 2016)

I wouldn't be too worried about their circumference right now, apparently scrotal circumference is variable depending on the season and is generally largest in October.

This study in African merinos links scrotal circumference to ewe fertility but I can't quite figure out how they measured it.


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## Mini Horses (Jul 13, 2016)

Yeah, time of year makes a difference.  Those rascals are hanging low and long in this heat!  Looking for air flow.

This is almost as hilarious as  the horse discussions about "how to remove a bean from the penis".  Now THAT is when you do NOT want your neighbor around (unless they own a male horse)


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 13, 2016)




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## Southern by choice (Jul 13, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> Yeah, time of year makes a difference.  Those rascals are hanging low and long in this heat!  Looking for air flow.
> 
> This is almost as hilarious as  the horse discussions about "how to remove a bean from the penis".  Now THAT is when you do NOT want your neighbor around (unless they own a male horse)


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## OneFineAcre (Jul 13, 2016)

Ponker said:


> Measure the circumference of the testicles. The measurement should be greatest point. I used a sewing tape and measured my rams first. Such good boys. My neighbors probably think I'm a nutjob. The boys were so calm and casual about it as I was on my knees behind them getting the measurement. Then I followed them around getting pictures of their backsides. I thought I heard my neighbor call her kids to the backyard at that point. LOL
> 
> My little buck Houdini was the most difficult one to measure. Had to get someone to hold him. He's only 4 and half months old so he's smaller than the cat. LOL But oh what a cutie! Even has little waddles.
> 
> I do wonder if there are studies to back this up. There certainly must be. I'm going to look into it and see if there is any difference in measurements considered for the bigger breeds or the smaller breeds. Certainly mini Cheviots wouldn't be held to these measurements - or would they... hmmm


I'm *sure *your neighbors  think you are a nut job.


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## Baymule (Jul 13, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> Yeah, time of year makes a difference.  Those rascals are hanging low and long in this heat!  Looking for air flow.
> 
> This is almost as hilarious as  the horse discussions about "how to remove a bean from the penis".  Now THAT is when you do NOT want your neighbor around (unless they own a male horse)



You read my mind....I was thinking this is like sheath cleaning. I swear my gelding sucks his penis up behind his eyeballs and I am up to my armpit trying to grab it.


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## Baymule (Jul 13, 2016)

Having recently become a member of the ram club, I find myself severely lacking in proper testicle protocol. This is a procedure that I must investigate further, then I must cajole Prince into cooperation with my testicle measuring efforts. If nothing else, it is sure to give him bragging rights. I can hear him posturing before the ladies now......."My dear ladies, my scrotum has been measured, quite diligently if I may say so, and has been found to be MORE than adequate. It might please you to know that you have one hunka-hunka burning LOVE right here in the pasture with you. Now, stop jostling each other to be first, the line forms to the right."


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## Southern by choice (Jul 13, 2016)

Baymule said:


> You read my mind....I was thinking this is like sheath cleaning. I swear my gelding sucks his penis up behind his eyeballs and I am up to my armpit trying to grab it.



Yeah this is way over the top... and I though goat people were bad.


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## norseofcourse (Jul 13, 2016)

OK, I measured Elding today.  I got the picture first:






Please ignore that fact that he also looks pregnant.  He is 'well-conditioned'   

Then I got the measuring tape out.  It started out well, but after a bit Elding started sucking one of them up, as if concerned I was up to no good back there...     I tried unsuccessfully to coax it back down, and finally just settled on the best measurement I had been able to get as about 12.5 inches.  That equals 31.75 centimeters, which puts him below the minimum for his age according to the Purdue chart, and in the 'questionable' category according to the sheep industry guide that @Roving Jacobs referenced.  He's not asked for much, though, with only four ewes, and he's always settled them.

Did they measure a specific breed?  Does breed matter?  Icelandics are smaller than many commercial breeds.  And I didn't know size changed through the year, so now I can measure Elding at different times of the year, to check for differences.  Oh good, I was looking for another hobby...   

I also wonder how they measured ewe fertility.  Whether she settled on the first heat?  Second?  Third?  Or perhaps whether she had singles or multiples?  I know that selecting for multiple births does tend to raise that tendancy in your flock.  I would imagine selecting for early growth and maturity would also have a good chance of being passed down.

Great thread!


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## Baymule (Jul 13, 2016)

@norseofcourse I am so glad for you that this thread has given you another hobby! I am sure that you don't have enough to do and following Elding around with a measuring tape will help fill those empty hours. Hunkering down on the north end of a south bound Elding should give your friends and family something new to worry about. Just beware if they sweetly offer to "take" you somewhere.......


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## Baymule (Jul 13, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Yeah this is way over the top... and I though goat people were bad.


Haha, horse people are a whole lot worser!! not a word, but I don't care


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## babsbag (Jul 13, 2016)

We are all crazy, it has now been confirmed.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 13, 2016)




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## secuono (Jul 14, 2016)

Did they measure on cold days when the testicles are sucked up close to the body or on hot days where they are darn near dragging on the ground? Since they do change a lot depending on temperature....


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## Bossroo (Jul 14, 2016)

Pound for pound and season to season the Suffolk ram's testicles are always smaller than the wool breed rams.  The Suffolk scrotum  always carry their testicles much higher,  just below their abdomen while the wool bred rams can be just a couple inches off the ground. Also, the Suffolk does not have wool on their scrotum while the wool breed rams do.  The Suffolk, in the hey day of lamb production produced more range cross- bred lambs than any other breed. Sperm number , their viability, motility  percentage, percentage of sperm cells that swim in circles only, crooked tails on the sperm cell, are the most critical things for fertility.  How soft or hard the epiditimus  the small structure at the bottom tip of the testicle determines the passage of the sperm from the testicles. So , it should be slightly firm, not hard. Each ejaculation of the ram will provide 1,000,000 to 3,000,000 sperm cells, but only ONE is needed to produce one lamb. Now that we have hair sheep since the decline of wool prices,  the Dorper ram sires more lambs than any other breed when a number of rams of different breeds are exposed to a large number of ewes at the same time in a  pasture. As for fertility of a rams daughters... it is always in the genes. I would look at the production record of the ram's mother, grandmother as well as his great grandmothers and sisters' production record to get a good idea what a ram's daughters would be expected to produce.


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## L J (Aug 23, 2016)

this made me laugh.

I looked this up last year, took a soft measuring tape for the job.   Capone stood still, didn't even notice me measuring him.   33cm and he was around 10 months.  He is a cross between Black belly Barbados and Katahdin.   

I bred him to my 2 ewes and he made 2 very beautiful ewe lambs.   One is on the smaller side  so not sure I will breed her. But the other is thick, big girl.  at 5 months darn near the size of her mom.  She should give us some nice babies.

Anyone who ever see's my ram thinks he has gigantic balls.  Thinking I may need to get a photo and post after work


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## Baymule (Aug 23, 2016)

Where else could you post pictures of animal testicles  and be congratulated on the size of them?


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 23, 2016)




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## Mini Horses (Aug 23, 2016)

It's true.


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## Sheepshape (Aug 24, 2016)

No objective measure here, but I swear that my rams' testicles have doubled in size in the last couple of months as the 'tupping' season approaches....


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## Baymule (Aug 24, 2016)

Sheepshape said:


> No objective measure here, but I swear that my rams' testicles have doubled in size in the last couple of months as the 'tupping' season approaches....



What about before and after pictures?? You could get some serious bragging rights...... jus' sayin'


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## Sheepshape (Aug 24, 2016)

I don't have a 'before' of all of them,but I'll get an 'after'.One of them may just need the wide -angled lens.... OK,so now you know I'm 'talking lol' as they say around here, and there will be those who have rams with  bigger assets  ('more than Nature usually hands out').....but my lads aren't lacking in the scrotal stakes. Pics. to follow when a) they will stand still long enough b)I can find my camera.


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## Baymule (Aug 24, 2016)

@Sheepshape is out in the pasture.......ball stalking.......bent over the back end of a ram with a camera.... her neighbors think she's really lost it this time......


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 24, 2016)

Wow, I was told dairy GOAT folks are weird. 

Sure we shave udders, photograph udders, talk about teats and udder texture....* but nothing compares to this! *


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## Baymule (Aug 24, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Wow, I was told dairy GOAT folks are weird.
> 
> Sure we shave udders, photograph udders, talk about teats and udder texture....* but nothing compares to this! *


Well, if your bucks don't have dangly thingies, then you won't get any kids! And obviously, the bigger the better!!


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## Sheepshape (Aug 25, 2016)

Goat Whisperer ......inspecting/admiring/comparing sheep 'undercarriages' is something of an obsession in the ovine world,too.

I've failed to get any good pics. of my rams' 'finest assets' as they weren't in a posing mood,

but,

Young lad,Aled (yearling)....still slim and agile, but starting to show potential.




 

The old man,Aled's father, from behind.



 

And the two many-times over fathers, Goliath and Popeye (lost an eye after a fight) showing they are ready for The Season.



 

The pics. don't really do them much justice.....they are really Big Boys.....


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## NH homesteader (Aug 25, 2016)

Thanks for the reminder of why I don't check this site in public!


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## Kusanar (Aug 25, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Thanks for the reminder of why I don't check this site in public!


yeah... I started looking on this site at work one day.... that was pretty funny... this thread even.... quickly closed that tab before someone saw and wondered what exactly I was looking at... lol


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## Baymule (Aug 25, 2016)

I got a pic of Prince's assets as he bent over the feed trough.


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## Sheepshape (Aug 25, 2016)

There is something seriously wrong with us liking pics. of sheep' testicles!


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## Baymule (Aug 25, 2016)

Face it, there is something just wrong about us, ram scrotum or not.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 25, 2016)

I went to pick up a piglet tonight from our friends house and saw the boar that produced him.  Holy cow batman! I considered taking a picture (beach balls) but felt a little rude considering it isn't my pig.  I mean...  It was kind of amazing and disturbing at the same time.  And then I thought of all the sheep ball watchers!


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## Baymule (Aug 25, 2016)

Are we any worse than goatie people posting pics of does vulvas?  And asking for opinions on her nearness to giving birth?  We sheepies are just trying to catch up!


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## secuono (Aug 25, 2016)

Goat butts haunt me! They look like creepy faces and their tails are always up, showing it off. Ick!!!

I was waiting for someone to mention boar balls...those are pretty ridiculous!!  I saw a FB picture earlier of a boar with massive balls and he had a big ol poo parked right on it! Like a table! 

I always wonder about wooly rams in summer and laying down. How do they no sit on them or smoosh them in some way?? They hang down sooooo low! My guys sometimes have less wool on the bottoms, lol.


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## Sheepshape (Aug 26, 2016)

Well,I have to hand the crown to Angora Goatees...... Local agricultural show, pretty hot.....goats in a tent. There stood a beautiful Angora Goat, all curls and cutesy looking, but with balls that were hanging on the floor.....

Rams lie as normal in the summer, with their package sort of out to the side. They look comfortable enough. My rams, pictured above, are very large sheep, standing about a metre and a half at the shoulder.....their scrotums reach their knees at tupping time. Smaller sheep seem to have 'em even lower slung.

Rams jump fences to get to the ewes in season, it's surprising that they don't leave everything behind on the fence!


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## Roving Jacobs (Aug 26, 2016)

I have angoras and can confirm that that have quite the dangle going on. Watching them run is quite the sight.

These pics are from much earlier this spring but they show the really big difference in how the different breeds hold their boys. They jacobs keep them high and tight but my fine wools practically let them drag on the ground. And yes I just happen to have these pictures on hand. No measurements here though!






(My dog was clearly scandalized in this pic)


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## NH homesteader (Aug 26, 2016)

Wow.  That's kind of frightening!


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## Baymule (Aug 26, 2016)

Hmmm......reckon I could market a jock strap for rams? 

WHEN YOUR RAM'S DINGLES DANGLE TOO LOW
RAISE THEM OFF THE GROUND WITH A DINGLE SLING!! 

I could get rich off this one......

You'll see me on Shark Tank with a well endowed ram and a DINGLE SLING trying to convince that I've hit on a money making venture!


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## Bossroo (Aug 26, 2016)

Baymule said:


> Hmmm......reckon I could market a jock strap for rams?
> 
> WHEN YOUR RAM'S DINGLES DANGLE TOO LOW
> RAISE THEM OFF THE GROUND WITH A DINGLE SLING!!
> ...


Not a chance if the owner of the sheep is knowlegable.  Sperm production requires lower tempertures so the testicles are lowered away from the rams' body to lower temperature.  Wool breeds such as the Marino , Ramboulett, etc. that have lots of wool on their scrotums keep their testicles as close to the ground as they can .  The rams have the ability to raise the tesicles next to their body during cold weather , when running of playing/ fighting, then lower them when the temperature rises, or at rest.  This goes for all mammals.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 26, 2016)

Don't say anything....keep your mouth shut...stop right now....

Whew!  I almost blew it....woulda been totally inappropriate.  I'm so proud of myself right now!  (good thing I haven't had wine yet - I lose my filter when I have wine)

But kinda makes me re-think an angora sweater!


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 26, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Not a chance if the owner of the sheep is knowlegable.  Sperm production requires lower tempertures so the testicles are lowered away from the rams' body to lower temperature.  Wool breeds such as the Marino , Ramboulett, etc. that have lots of wool on their scrotums keep their testicles as close to the ground as they can .  The rams have the ability to raise the tesicles next to their body during cold weather , when running of playing/ fighting, then lower them when the temperature rises, or at rest.  This goes for all mammals.


Although I think @Baymule was joking, you are 100% correct.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 26, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Don't say anything....keep your mouth shut...stop right now....
> 
> Whew!  I almost blew it....woulda been totally inappropriate.  I'm so proud of myself right now!  (good thing I haven't had wine yet - I lose my filter when I have wine)
> 
> But kinda makes me re-think an angora sweater!


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## Mini Horses (Aug 26, 2016)

Well that last dangle was just bad....needs a good shave!    They are soooo low that if he was startled and ran, he'd beat himself to death.

You know, it kinda reminds me of ole granny, from the front!


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 26, 2016)

HA!  You're right, lol!


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## Baymule (Aug 26, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Not a chance if the owner of the sheep is knowlegable.  Sperm production requires lower tempertures so the testicles are lowered away from the rams' body to lower temperature.  Wool breeds such as the Marino , Ramboulett, etc. that have lots of wool on their scrotums keep their testicles as close to the ground as they can .  The rams have the ability to raise the tesicles next to their body during cold weather , when running of playing/ fighting, then lower them when the temperature rises, or at rest.  This goes for all mammals.



I know, Bossroo, I was just making a joke. Believe it or not, I have been know to be totally inappropriate at times....kinda proud of myself of keeping it so clean in a post about ram scrotums. 

@frustratedearthmother get a glass or two of that wine and let 'er rip!


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## NH homesteader (Aug 26, 2016)

My daughter is at that awkward age (3) where she'll look at a male critter,  in our case our buck,  and go...  Huh,  is that where the milk comes from? So I'm very happy to not have a well endowed ram on our property


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## Baymule (Aug 27, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> My daughter is at that awkward age (3) where she'll look at a male critter,  in our case our buck,  and go...  Huh,  is that where the milk comes from? So I'm very happy to not have a well endowed ram on our property



When our now 9 year old grand daughter was that age, her parents had answered her questions truthfully. So she looked under my donkey and announced HE HAS A PENIS.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 27, 2016)

Hahaha! Well she always asks them in front of people.  I'm all for honesty, just maybe not in front  of company. However this breeding season I'm afraid of what I'm going to have to explain!


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## Sheepshape (Aug 28, 2016)

This discussion is just NUTS (whoops,wrong word there).

Roving Jacobs....that ram look like he needs a scrotal support. 

Just WHY do they have to be so big and low slung?


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## Baymule (Aug 28, 2016)

Yeah, really. It looks like he'd beat them to bruises against his ankles. I guess the ladies like it though.

Conversation between two ewes;
#1 Just look at those dangling dingle-thingies!
#2 Oh I AM looking! I know who I want my Lammy-Daddy to be!
#1 Not if I get there first!
#2 Relax, from the size of those dangling dingle-thingies, there's enough for ALL of us!


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## Bossroo (Aug 28, 2016)

Baymule said:


> Yeah, really. It looks like he'd beat them to bruises against his ankles. I guess the ladies like it though.
> 
> Conversation between two ewes;
> #1 Just look at those dangling dingle-thingies!
> ...


There is a White Dorper ram in Oregon that bred over 300 ewes ( 150 in first group followed by another group over 150 )  and  got all of them  PREGNANT  in ONE breeding season.


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## Baymule (Aug 28, 2016)

Wow! I'll be happy if my Dorper ram makes babies with my 6 ewes!


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## Sheepshape (Aug 29, 2016)

Baymule....he'll have 6 before he has his breakfast grass (if they are in season). With the size of some of the 'Bad Boys' I'm seeing, then ANYTHING seems possible.

It's so funny to see the ewes in a circle around the ram as soon as he stands up in a morning. They're a bit fickle, though, and don't want to even look at him the following morning (and they don't even have the booze to blame).


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## Baymule (Aug 29, 2016)




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## farmerjan (Aug 30, 2016)

All the sheep and goat people don't have anything to be ashamed about.  In the A. I. world of beef, the scrotal size is in the catalog description of the bulls, it is considered very important as most bulls and even sheep and goats, in commercial herds need to have sufficient scrotal size to produce sufficient sperm to breed a great number of animals.  Bulls also change size due to heat, with them dropping alot lower to try to keep cool so that the semen contains plenty of viable sperm.  I have bred cattle that have been put in head catch for the a.i. technician to come breed, and after an hour in the sun their body temp is so hot it will literally "cook" (kill) the semen.  Scrotal size is one measurement of fertility,  and you don't want to keep a male with small testicles in comparison to breed/body size as you are just asking for breeding problems down the road.  Don't know how it affects the females except that the earlier maturing, larger animals will be most likely to be the best reproducing...i.e. more likely to keep the breed going/viable, and the daughters will also be faster maturing, and more likely to produce healthy reproductive offspring.  We are not supposed to breed from the scrawny/scraggly ones.


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