# Which Mini Breed is Best for us?



## Devonviolet (Nov 24, 2014)

We are new to hobby farming. We know we want to have dairy goats, for milk, butter, making cheese, as well as soaps and lotions.

We are already pretty sure we don't want a full size dairy goat, because the higher milk volumes would be too much for our needs. After reading a couple highly recommended book, on raising dairy goats, and reading the descriptions of dairy goats, we had pretty much decided on the Nigerian Dwarf goats, because they produce less milk and have exceptionally high butterfat of 6.7%. 

Then I found BYH, and started learning about the Mini Breeds, which weren't mentioned in the books we read. I am definitely interested in the Mini's because they produce more milk than the NDs, and less than regular or standard Dairy breeds - although the butterfat appears to be less.  How much less?  I'm not sure, because I can't find anything online, that tells me butterfat content of these breeds.  

I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on the pluses and minuses of the different mini breeds, including: 
Personalities 
Ability to be dual purpose - or not 
Milk production and ease of milking 
Butterfat content 
Health issues 
Ease of kidding
As well as cold/heat tolerance 
     We are in East Texas, where the temps can stay 100°+ for a week or more at a 
     time, but can also get below freezing in Winter months.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2014)

Having all 3. Nigies, Mini's and Standards there are things I personally like about each one.

Personality- for me it would be the Lamancha! No - wait, the Nubian.... well maybe the Alpine.  
   that is  a hard one! We certainly enjoy our Nigies, we have had them the longest, then the Lamancha, then Mini's then the other Standards. The Nigies are sweet but truthfully out of all of our goats they are not at  the top of the list. We have had up to 30 goats at once. They have been the most temperamental. Not ever mean just lil' snots sometimes.
There are factors that make a difference in the individual goat and how their personalities develop. Raising and care. We have dam raised, trough raised, and bottle babies. Our dam raised goats are handled more than the average breeder as we are full time and have a large family so they are very sweet and friendly. However the trough fed babies have been the best! A very different kind of friendly, yet not quite like a bottle baby which can sometimes be obnoxious. 
We will be raising all our kids this year on the trough.

As far as butterfat. When looking at research, the Nigerian, the Nubian, and the Lamancha are highest on the list... yet the individual goat will vary. Looking at milk testing from the individual goat is best. DHIR testing will give you this info, however not all farms do the milk testing even though they may have excellent dairy goats. Some of the Grade A & B dairy owners we know gave done the DHIR testing and others do not. Expense, and time are often factors. Many small farms cannot afford to.
Depending on the mini- breed the butterfat content should be very good if the mini is one of the above mentioned breeds (but in mini form). The mini breeds are crossed with the Dwarf to start with so that only helps keep the butterfat at higher levels..

Production is higher on the mini. Generally teats on the mini are larger than on the Nigie but larger teats are often developed by generations of breeding the mini. Larger teats are also developed through breeding on the Dwarf. As far as milking- goats with larger teats are always easier to milk! 

If planning on improving and developing your own line the mini's are much more difficult. It takes many generations to be a "Mini". Until they meet the breed standard for the mini they are registered as "Experimental" with a percentage of the make up.
Many that have mini's generally have 1st gens, 2nd gens, those that are tying to develop their herd will continue the breeding program.

Any goat can be dual purpose but the smaller breeds are generally not worth growing out to put in your freezer, better to sell as a wether. Larger breeds... yep. Although in our region we have many different cultures, each culture has a particular kind of goat they want. Some small, some big, some old, some intact and stinky. 

5 years ago it was harder to find Nigies and although they were around, mini's- no one had heard of them. LOL Skip forward, with the everyone wanting to do small farming etc the Dwarf took off, 
understandably so. Small goat, petlike, adorable! Easy! Now there are a bajillion Dwarfs! Kind of "faddish" if you will. Many find if they are homesteading and wanting more serious milk production the Nigies just aren't enough. Several dairies we know started their dairies with Dwarfs because of that high butterfat... those dairies have given up the dwarfs and moved to mini's and standard breeds.
At the end of the year, hooves - all 4 need trimmed, vaccinations, testing per goat, vet care, emergencies, milking each goat, kidding from each goat, and care of each goat as well as mucking stalls, running fecals, checking FAMACHA scores - it all adds up. 

The most logical starting point is to determine your actual dairy needs. Start there and then you can see the number of goats necessary. *Also don't forget to double your number in the end... because GOATS ARE ADDICTIVE!* 

Getting _more_ "goat" than you need is sometimes worse than getting goats that are _less_ than you need.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 24, 2014)

I have a few F-1 Kinders.  I'm milking one now that gives 1.5 quarts on once a day milking.  I've read that their milk can be in the range of 5 - 7.5% butterfat.    I make chevre regularly and it's awesome - rich and creamy.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2014)

The reason you can't find much information on the mini "breeds" is that they don't have an extremely long history.

The Nigerian herd book was started by AGS (American Goat Society) back in the early 1980's, so there has been a great deal of production data on them.

And then, the ADGA (American Dairy Goat Association) recognized them as a true dairy breed back in 2005 (I think or there abouts).

And then someone said, wouldn't it be cool to cross a Nigerian with one of the standards and a new "breed" is born.  The initial cross between the Nigerian buck and standard doe is an F-1.

However, neither AGS or ADGA recognizes these crosses, they maintain a strictly purebred herd book for Nigerians.

But, a couple of registries like the MDGA (Miniature Dairy Goat Association) have started for the purposes of maintaining a herd book on these animals as well as production testing. 

So, there should be some data available, you may want to join that organization if that is the direction you want to go.

Since Nigerians have the highest average butter fat and the best feed/milk conversion ratio one would hope that the crosses would be somewhere in between.

@Southern by choice
So, now that you have decided to go with the mini's the Nigerians are "faddish"?
You crack me up.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2014)

Not surprised you have taken offense OFA.  
It certainly is not intended that way. They, like many breeds, will have their "moment". Many dairy breeds have. 
There is a new "fad" every few years... Lamancha's are one right now. 
Correction (OFA)..."not that we have decided to go in that direction"... we started 2 years ago with Mini's...however we continue with the Nigies,  _and_ have Mini's _and_ Standards.
We acquired 2 new Nigies this year. We love the Nigies and they are great little goats.  We have have all 3 "sizes", you do not, so I am simply sharing _our_ experiences. 

We can utilize 3-4 gallons of milk per day that is why we have moved in the direction of the Standard goats. Mini's are bred because they simply will give more milk, stay small and as it has always been and always will be, our focus is for the homestead goat. 

We are not hobby farmers. Our animals MUST produce and contribute to the family's needs.

Again looking at your needs is key. If your needs can be met with the Dwarf then I'd say stick with a Dwarf. 

I posted a thread on the advantages of smaller goats over standards awhile back. Still holds true. 
As far as registration, the Nigerian had to "fight" for it's place in the dairy registries too at one time. There were many that did not want the dwarf to be considered a "dairy" goat. Fortunately the Dwarf was recognized!


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Not surprised you have taken offense OFA.
> It certainly is not intended that way. They, like many breeds, will have their "moment". Many dairy breeds have.
> There is a new "fad" every few years... Lamancha's are one right now.
> Correction (OFA)..."not that we have decided to go in that direction"... we started 2 years ago with Mini's...however we continue with the Nigies,  _and_ have Mini's _and_ Standards.
> ...



Not surprised you totally misunderstood.
I was not offended at all.
I was just amused at your description of Nigerians as "faddish"
I had never heard that before.
Of course, I didn't know the La Manchas were now "faddish"  I guess I don't keep up with such things.
I'm glad a registry has started to track production for the minis.  I was just stating as to why there is not a lot of production data.
I like the mini's, I think they are very cool.

And, I once commented that I thought they were a great thing for you to do on *your *farm.  I'm very supportive of your efforts in that regard.

I agree with you 100% the OP needs to determine what their needs are and make their determination based on that.  You'll have to share your experience milking your mini's. 

Most people don't need 3-4 gallons per day like you do with your large family.

But, we were getting 2 +  gallons per day at peak milking 5 Nigerians.  We left the others kids with them to keep them in milk for the fair because we didn't want to milk them all.

With the high fat content, we get 4lbs of chevre from 5 quarts of milk.

We were swimming in milk and cheese to the point of finding several clients to buy excess milk. We were selling 6 gallons per week at one point.

We had to buy a 2nd refridgerator just to keep milk in because this is what it looked like after 2 or 3 days.

So @Devonviolet
How much milk do you need?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2014)

Missed your edit @OneFineAcre   you added a lot! 

Oh how I understand the milk thing... but we don't bootleg  so if we get backed up we give it to our friends feeder pig or we have to pitch. We freeze a lot too. I am a big believer and have always posted don't get more goat than you need! 

Goats are great! Shoot, I NEVER thought I'd have a Nubian, considering I am a Lamancha gal! Yet I have fallen in love with my Roman nosed _long_ eared baby!  

I will always have some Nigies, some mini's and some standards... and some meat goats LOL  
At the same time I want to keep the number of hooves down, the fecals I run to a minimum, the blood I have to draw for testing and the cost of CAE, CL, and Johnes testing to a minimum!

@frustratedearthmother - I  Know only one person with Kinders, seems that those who have them LOVE them. Don't know much about them.  Being a dairy breed crossed with a meat breed have you found any difference in milk production?  Do you think they really are a good dual purpose breed?


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2014)

I often do that decide I have more to say


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## Devonviolet (Nov 24, 2014)

Thank y'all for your wonderful answers to my question.  I'm sorry it took me so long to get back to you. However, we were out of town all day, and didn't get back until late. And now I am too tired to do your answers justice. I need to get some sleep and I will respond tomorrow. Zzzzzzz


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 24, 2014)

So far I'm only at F2, expecting F3's in the spring.      As my line is not "set" yet, I've seen some variation in size, but I am one who loves the breed.   The doe I'm milking now is one of twin does (F-1's)  and she is several inches taller and at least 20 - 25lbs heavier than her twin.  Without a doubt, if I butchered does, she'd make fine freezer fodder.  I've yet to butcher a Kinder - just because I've been mostly blessed with does.  But, when it happens I expect  they'll be great.

When I milked this doe twice daily she easily gave over a gallon a day.  Now, almost 6 months into the lactation with once a day milking she's down to about 1.5 qts.  (DH milked for me several times when I was out of town lately...and ... well... he tries , but production has suffered.)  I'm ok with that though and haven't  tried to get production back up because even with 1.5 quarts a day it's more than we use for just drinking.   The milk is delicious and creamy and makes beautiful cheese.  I find it to be right between Nubian milk, which is GOOD and Pygmy milk which is 'da BOMB'!   

I've raised Pygmy goats for over 25 years.  My time with the Nubians is fairly short and with the Kinders even shorter. But, if I had to pick just one breed to have - it would be the Kinders - hands down.


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## kinder (Nov 25, 2014)

2X that


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2014)

I have heard Pygmy milk is VERY Good!
Kinders seem to be hard to find. 
Then you also gave those that breed them and have them that DON'T put up pictures... often enough... not mentioning any names.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 25, 2014)

@Devonviolet

If you go to the MDGA website they have a section "about mini's" that has some production information.

http://miniaturedairygoats.net/about_minis_page.html

According to the site there is a pretty wide range.  1 quart per day to 1 1/4 gallons.  Average of 3 quarts.

I would seem to make sense that the best output would come from the F-1 crosses, the first generation hybrids.  When you cross two hybrids they will not breed true so there would be a lot of variation on that next generation.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 25, 2014)

My kids describe Pygmy milk as tasting like a melted milk shake...and I've gotta agree.  I've had several very good pygmy milkers.

I showed my goats for many years and what a lot of people don't realize is that there are points given for udders even in Pygmy shows.  I started breeding for good udders over 20 years ago and I can honestly say that every Pygmy doe in my herd has a nice udder.  I can't even say that about my Nubians.  Think about it though - a pygmy goat with a pendulous udder has a huge disadvantage when it comes to raising babies, lol. Hard to nurse from a bag that's dragging the ground!

And for those photo addicts:  I picked this pic because besides my wonderful MIL it shows Nubians in the background, a Kinder in the foreground and a Pygmy right behind one Kinder and in front of the other(and various chickens not wanting to miss out on the action).  You can see that the size of the Kinders is pretty much right in between.  The doe in the foreground is the doe I'm milking now...she's a pretty meaty girl.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 25, 2014)

frustratedearthmother said:


> My kids describe Pygmy milk as tasting like a melted milk shake...and I've gotta agree.  I've had several very good pygmy milkers.
> 
> I showed my goats for many years and what a lot of people don't realize is that there are points given for udders even in Pygmy shows.  I started breeding for good udders over 20 years ago and I can honestly say that every Pygmy doe in my herd has a nice udder.  I can't even say that about my Nubians.  Think about it though - a pygmy goat with a pendulous udder has a huge disadvantage when it comes to raising babies, lol. Hard to nurse from a bag that's dragging the ground!
> 
> ...


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## MsDeb (Nov 25, 2014)

The waiting is KILLING me!  We made the decision to give up our ND doe that was bred, purchase a baby Nubian and wait until next year to breed her with our ND buck.  Just too much going on in our lives to take on first time milking experience this year.  But the discussion and the pictures of the milk (and the fact that we have 3 heavy duty milk drinking grandkids that just moved in with us) is making me anxious to get started.  I think I need to find a local person who has too much goat milk.


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## kinder (Nov 25, 2014)

MY Kinder Boys
Wyatt is a F-1 and has much of the Pygmy traits , and Jed is F=5


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2014)

Loving the Kinders!
My friend has Pygmy/ Nigerians... She has a beautiful blue doe that has the biggest, prettiest udder... and always needs to be milked out when she has twins because there is too much milk... this year she had triplets and for the first time she doesn't have to be milked out!
They keep saying they want to milk... but she will be a handful to train to the stand. LOL

With developing any of the mini's it isn't an easy task. There really is a range when it comes to size. When you look at the maximum height allowable... that is pretty big. We don't want our mini's to be big at 100 lbs. We are working for actual mini's, larger than the Nigie but not 27" either. We like 24" and max 75 lbs.
The milking is variable as it is on most of the smaller breeds. However the breeders we know of mini's generally get 2-3 qts. If they are on the maximum side of the standard at 27" and 100 lbs... they seem to produce 1 gallon or more.

The first generation is not ideal. The offspring sometimes will take after the Nigie more and sometimes the Standard Breed used. In a way it is more about simply using the nigie to shrink down the Standard. Pretty much the Nigie "look" is eventually eliminated.
We bought 2 Mini mancha Bucklings this year... one more so for companionship for the other. The better of the two looks far more Lamancha and was used for breeding this year. The other that we have been undecided whether we would use him or not has surprised us and is developing far better than we thought. Losing his Nigie look and we are just keeping an eye on him. 
I LOVE the Nigie look on my Nigies!  Just don't want the mini's to look like Nigies with no ears! 

If I had to pick just one breed I don't think I could. I often say it would be the Lamancha but truth is... LOL 
I really do love all the breeds we have. Of course in the mix of Nigies. Lamanchas. Minis, and Kikos I only have 1 Alpine and 1 Nubian so not much to base the breed on but the 2 oddballs I have... They are dream goats! 
I love the variety!


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## MsDeb (Nov 25, 2014)

@Southern by choice , could you be any less specific about which goats you love?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2014)

Only met _one_ goat I didn't like... he went into the freezer!

How can I pick? The Nuby is like a well trained dog and loves bear hugs and kisses. The Alpine... oh my goodness could she be any sweeter... she has to give you a kiss and has this whole ritual of kiss then hug then kiss  the Lamanchas each one is different from totally a brat to "I am quietly standing here waiting for your love" to hey,,, LOVE ME NOW... the mini's stinkin cute, the Nigies... all are different they are the snobbiest of all our goats one day don't touch me the next hey love me and the Kiko's super affectionate!
The BUCKS-   them all! Big babies!

Goats are simply wonderful animals!


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

Many thanks to all you wonderful goaties, for your input here!  I keep trying to find time to comment, but there is just too much needs doin'.  Maybe after Thanksgiving I will have a few minutes to spend some quality time here.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 25, 2014)

We'll have it all worked out for you by then, lol!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2014)

frustratedearthmother said:


> We'll have it all worked out for you by then, lol!




Well as long as it _IS_ a goat you can't go wrong!


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## kinder (Nov 25, 2014)

X-2...


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

frustratedearthmother said:


> We'll have it all worked out for you by then, lol!



Well, y'all are doing an awesome job so far . . .


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Well as long as it _IS_ a goat you can't go wrong!



That is so true!  So many goats, so little time !!!!!


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

kinder said:


> X-2...



Okay . . . Color me Newbeeee! What is "X-2”???  I need to be in on the joke.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2014)

means times 2 of what the other poster said.

Goat people are crazy... if you're not- you will be 
It just goes with the territory. Somehow these caprines suck you in and I am wondering if they have mind control abilities because everything will start to revolve around them. You never leave the house during kidding season. Family gatherings must be at your house because there is no one to care for the farm... and even if you can find someone then your 8 LGD's aren't letting this kind soul in the field. All your spare money will be about improving your farm. The goats medical will come before yours. You plan your surgery around your kidding schedule and milking. 

Don't run for the hills though ... once you are over the edge we are all right here for ya! And we will enable you forever!


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> means times 2 of what the other poster said.
> 
> Goat people are crazy... if you're not- you will be
> It just goes with the territory. Somehow these caprines suck you in and I am wondering if they have mind control abilities because everything will start to revolve around them. You never leave the house during kidding season. Family gatherings must be at your house because there is no one to care for the farm... and even if you can find someone then your 8 LGD's aren't letting this kind soul in the field. All your spare money will be about improving your farm. The goats medical will come before yours. You plan your surgery around your kidding schedule and milking.
> ...





 You are such a stitch Southern!  You crack me up!!!! 

I promise I won't run for the hills!  It's reassuring that y'all will be there for me!  I could do it, but it's a scary thought to be hanging out there on my own, running around like a chicken with my . . . Well, you get the picture.


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 25, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> means times 2 of what the other poster said.
> 
> Goat people are crazy... if you're not- you will be
> It just goes with the territory. Somehow these caprines suck you in and I am wondering if they have mind control abilities because everything will start to revolve around them. You never leave the house during kidding season. Family gatherings must be at your house because there is no one to care for the farm... and even if you can find someone then your 8 LGD's aren't letting this kind soul in the field. All your spare money will be about improving your farm. The goats medical will come before yours. You plan your surgery around your kidding schedule and milking.
> ...




Good to know that there is now no hope for us..... thanks for the explanation!


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

Hens and Roos said:


> Good to know that there is now no hope for us..... thanks for the explanation!



Yeah, I knew I was hooked when I saw my first goat several years ago. One beautiful Spring day, we were driving in the hills of Southern PA, near the Mason Dixon Line, when we came upon an Angora Goat farm. We pulled over to get a closer look, and the owner came out to greet us.  She introduced us to her Does and kids, and then we walked across the stream, to the upper pasture, where we met her Alpacas, some Ewes and lambs, as well as her two bucks. The lambs were darling. But, those Angora kids were just absolutely precious!


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 25, 2014)

Admitting you are powerless is step #1. 

Repeat after me..... Hello, my name is___ and I am a goataholic...

You might as well surrender to the power of the goat...there is no hope, lol.


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## Devonviolet (Nov 25, 2014)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Admitting you are powerless is step #1.
> 
> Repeat after me..... Hello, my name is___ and I am a goataholic...
> 
> You might as well surrender to the power of the goat...there is no hope, lol.


 Hello, my name is Devonviolet and I am a goataholic. 
I admit I am powerless, and I surrender to my addiction . . .


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## Devonviolet (Dec 5, 2014)

*Thank you!!!* to all who commented here!  This is all really good info, and gives us lots to consider.  It will be Spring before we actually buy our dairy goats. But, now I'm thinking it won't be as simple as finding the nearest ND breeder.  Those Mini-Manchacha sure look appealing!

Right now, we are trying to decide which meat goats to get, so our new Maremma puppy, which will come to us in mid-Feb., at 16 weeks, will have some work to do.  Before, we were set on getting Boer goats. But, now that I have done more research and read some of the posts here on BYH, I'm starting to lean toward Kiko's because of their disease resistance.  An online search came up with a breeder about a half hour from our farm. We are planning a trip to visit them sometime soon. (This is DH and I excited to find our goats!)


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 5, 2014)

I'm sure you will find a good breeder!

Check these out-
http://www.miniaturedairygoats.net/district_2.html

http://www.tmgronline.org/members/TEXAS.html


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## Southern by choice (Dec 5, 2014)

Now I know those emoticons are suppose to be celebratory... but what they really are is you and DH losing your minds  ... X2. 

Goats do that to you.  

For our region the Kiko's made the most sense but in the future when we are on more land we would love to bring in some Spanish Goats, maybe some Myotonics.

This is from Onion Creek Ranch... rich in articles and resources you may want to take a look.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/myotonicgoats.html

The Savannah goat looks very similar to the Boer... nice goats too.

I think deciding whether you want breeding stock to raise and sell as breeding stock or raising for commercial herd will help you in your decision too.  I love the look of the Boer but sadly they do not do well in our region. 

Very excited about your Maremma pup! We will require lots of pics as that is the unspoken rule around here. LOL


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 5, 2014)

_Unspoken_ rule?  

Nooo, we beg, we plead, we cajole, and we even threaten.  We loooove pics!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 5, 2014)

@frustratedearthmother  I was trying to avoid the pleading and cajoling... shhhhhh
we want others to_ believe _we have a little more decorum than that.
Even if it's not true.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 5, 2014)

Dang me - I almost blew the secret!


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## animalmom (Dec 6, 2014)

Decorum?  Decorum?  We don't need not stinkin decorum!

(isn't Decorum some place in Georgia?)

Pictures!  We demand pictures!  Show us the pictures!

Please and mega thank you, of course.


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## goats&moregoats (Dec 6, 2014)

Decorum, what we decorated our barn with?  Oh no, no that is décor( hay feeders, buckets, kidding pens)   Please yes, lots of pictures when the time arrives. Can never ever get enough of goats or LGDs.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2014)




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## Devonviolet (Dec 6, 2014)

LADIES! PLEASE,  you're makin' me laugh so hard I'm going to have to excuse myself . . .! 

I have been on BYH for two weeks . . . It seems like so much longer. Have been trying to post pics, but wasn't allowed. I tried a few minutes ago, and it was going to let me. But I had to leave the page  for a minute. Now that I am trying again it won't let me again. 

Okay . . . QUICK!  It let me open my photo album!  Here is a group shot of the litter, at 3 weeks. 5 girls, 3 boys. I was the last to put my deposit on a girl, so I get last pick. However, the breeder is keeping one of the girls, and says they are all such strong pups, she is going to have a hard time choosing, so I'm not worried about which one I will get. 






Here they are at almost 5 weeks





Here is the Sire.  He was imported from champion lines, from Abruzzi Italy. His name is Bartolo.  Isn't he a good looking boy?




And here is the Dam. Her name is Gabby. I know she has excellent lineage. But, right now can't remember what it is.  She is a beautiful girl too, eh?




Okay, so decorum aside. Or is it dècor-ah? Or was that Decorah (Iowa)? After all the pleading and cajoling, does this satisfy (at least temporarily) y'alls need for pics?  I'm not sure how to do it, but I'm thinking once we get our little girl, I will start a journal. I'm big on taking photos so my journal won't be wanting for lots of pics.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 6, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Now I know those emoticons are suppose to be celebratory... but what they really are is you and DH losing your minds  ... X2.
> 
> Goats do that to you.
> 
> ...



HA!  You are SO right, Southern!  I've always been the driving force behind getting our farm, goats, chickens, LGD, etc. and I seems to have more energy than DH. So, I was kinda thinkin' that I would be more involved in the goings on with the animals.  However, I have been pleasantly surprised that DH has caught the bug!  He is devouring the hard copy and Kindle books I bought about goats, chickens and training LGDs. He even dreams about goats!  Can you imagine that!?!?   So, yes! We are losing our minds . . . X2! 

DH left me a note. It said, "I'm lost. I've gone to look for myself. If I should arrive before I get back, please ask me to wait!" 

Thanks for your comments on the different breeds of meat goats.  I've actually been looking at info on Spanish goats and think there is a local breeder, not too far from us.  They seem to be popular here in Texas. Thanks for the link on the myotonic goats. They are always good for a laugh.  And of course they make great meat goats.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 6, 2014)

Southern by choice said,

"For our region the Kiko's made the most sense but in the future when we are on more land we would love to bring in some Spanish Goats, maybe some Myotonics.

This is from Onion Creek Ranch... rich in articles and resources you may want to take a look.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/myotonicgoats.html "

                                   <*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>

WOW! I just came from the Onion Creek Ranch website!  What good looking bucks and does they have!  I think I am in LOVE! 

Some of them look like they are on steroids!   GEEZ, Southern! You sure do know how to make a tough decision even harder to make!!!   And to think I was ready to stop at Boers - not that they aren't a good goat. It's just that some of these goats are absolutely gorgeous! I just wish I could afford more than 5 acres! My dream was 20 acres, but we had to keep paring back the number of acres to keep it all in the budget!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2014)

Devonviolet said:


> Some of them look like they are on steroids!   GEEZ, Southern! You sure do know how to make a tough decision even harder to make!!!


   I know for us, in our region the Boer was the only goat... I do believe that most North Carolinians did not know there was more than one meat goat. LOL We furthered our search and discovered lots of other MG. Here the farmers all had the same story... Well now don't be surprised if ya walk out in cher field and see one layin' dead... ya gotta worm em all the time....
Uh... NO. As much as I love the look of the Boer there was something wrong with that picture.  After 2012/2013 9 months of rain and whole herds being wiped out by parasites everyone suddenly turned to Kiko's. LOL  Due to my partners hiatus from goats right now we only have a few... LOL he could have sold 100 goats last year and this.  Ugh- his timing.


Devonviolet said:


> DH left me a note. It said, "I'm lost. I've gone to look for myself. If I should arrive before I get back, please ask me to wait!"
> .


  

This was our George... a New Zealand...isn't he gorgeous!
We ended up not being able to keep him as he would not acclimate to our other bucks. He was the only buck on his farm forever and had never been around any other bucks. He was the sweetest baby ever. We cried and cried when he left us. All our other bucks live peacefully together... he wasn't going to. He lived completely off the land before we got him, we couldn't keep him in a lot. He lost so much weight in the first few weeks in quarantine as he wasn't even use to hay and never had feed.
As sweet as  he was he almost killed our Kiko buck through the fence. If not for our LGD's "Moses"  would be dead. Moses was young 18m and 100 lbs less.  Here is George... and here is Callie keeping him off our fence that he was tearing down.

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/the-value-of-a-lgd-callie-protects-her-herd.27160/

George- George loved hugs and kisses! I miss him.

 




Oh, and LOVE    pics of the pups!


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> This was our George... a New Zealand...isn't he gorgeous!
> We ended up not being able to keep him as he would not acclimate to our other bucks. He was the only buck on his farm forever and had never been around any other bucks. He was the sweetest baby ever. We cried and cried when he left us. All our other bucks live peacefully together... he wasn't going to. He lived completely off the land before we got him, we couldn't keep him in a lot. He lost so much weight in the first few weeks in quarantine as he wasn't even use to hay and never had feed.
> As sweet as  he was he almost killed our Kiko buck through the fence. If not for our LGD's "Moses"  would be dead. Moses was young 18m and 100 lbs less.  Here is George... and here is Callie keeping him off our fence that he was tearing down.
> 
> ...



WOW! What a gorgeous specimen your George was! It's too bad he wasn't exposed to living with other bucks. I can see why you miss him so much! Reading your story about George makes me realize we need more than wethers to keep our foundational bucks company!

I went to the post about him attacking Moses and how Callie saved the day!  A true testament of how good LGDs are!  WOW!

In the last post of that thread you said one of your ND does got in with the Kiko bucks and they mated her. How did that turn out?  Did she have trouble at kidding? Being so new at this, I'm not sure what you meant by, "she has already had her Lute shot"?


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Oh, and LOVE    pics of the pups!



Thanks!  I am so excited to get our little girl and start working on training her! I see these pics and I want to pick them up and cuddle them!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2014)

The lute shot shot induces her basically. So before any attachment to the uterine wall or babies are formed we "luted" her. It does make them go back into heat. 
That was an old section of fence that was welded wire... we had hot on one side.... but... wire was down, fence was flimsy there and she pushed her way under... Lil Ho' 

Thank you, George was wonderful. And yes, still think of him often. *Loved that goat*. When we had to draw blood for his testing... I couldn't get it... so thick in the neck and so many folds it was not an easy task... our vet came out and it took over 20 minutes... feel, poke, nope, feel poke, nope, over and over.... that angel boy was perfect and patient. If we'd have had more land and I could have run him by himself and a few does I would have but it just wasn't going to be possible.
We do have his offspring! Twins doe/buck. 
But I don't think there will ever be another like him. 

Truly it is the hardest thing about having goats. Each one is so different and saying goodbye is excruciating. We had a 3 month old buckling leave this am... I was fine as he was a brat. 
My DD on the other hand...  

Callie(Anatolian) and Moses (he's the goat) are so ridiculous together. They adore each other so much that the daggone goat stands over her in the day and guards her when she is sleeping. And now when she takes off after something he thinks he is suppose to go with  her. 
The most bizarre thing ever.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> The lute shot shot induces her basically. So before any attachment to the uterine wall or babies are formed we "luted" her. It does make them go back into heat.
> That was an old section of fence that was welded wire... we had hot on one side.... but... wire was down, fence was flimsy there and she pushed her way under... Lil Ho'
> 
> Callie(Anatolian) and Moses (he's the goat) are so ridiculous together. They adore each other so much that the daggone goat stands over her in the day and guards her when she is sleeping. And now when she takes off after something he thinks he is suppose to go with  her.
> The most bizarre thing ever.



Ah, that makes sense, about the Lute shot helping the doe to conceive.  I'm curious how an ND faired after being bred with a full size goat?  Or am I misguided here?  I thought when you breed a full size buck with a dwarf doe, she can have large kids, which makes kidding difficult. In my reading, it always says to breed a dwarf buck to a full size doe, when you are breeding crosses.

That is so funny about Callie and Moses!  Did Moses do that before Callie saved him from George?  Or have they always had that special connection?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2014)

I guess I didn't explain that well...
The lute shot basically prevented implantation. Not really an abortion. Although some will give it if they discover doe was bred and they don'y want the kids and they do abort. We did the lute a certain number of days after they bred her so no kids!
However then it does make the doe go back into heat. We never had anything like that happen before so there was no way I was going to let a nigie carry kiko babies. 
Your right small buck to big doe.

Callie and "D" (male pyr) have always been lovebugs. Amy and Badger use to be with the bucks. D and Callie were with the Kiko does. D also was with the Nigie does. Then we switched everything around. Callie and D were like a married couple.  Somewhere along the line though Callie was wooed by Moses... poor D  
Callie and D do better with the Kikos and Amy and Badger love the dairy goats... it all works. Tiggs (Anatolian pup) is with the Kikos too. Loves being with them and Callie. Our other pups are with the dairy girls.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> I guess I didn't explain that well...
> The lute shot basically prevented implantation. Not really an abortion. Although some will give it if they discover doe was bred and they don'y want the kids and they do abort. We did the lute a certain number of days after they bred her so no kids!
> However then it does make the doe go back into heat. We never had anything like that happen before so there was no way I was going to let a nigie carry kiko babies.
> Your right small buck to big doe.
> ...



Ah! That explains it!  I'm glad to hear your ND didn't have to deal with big kids!!!   That would have hurt!

That's so sweet, the way your LGDs have worked out their places with the does and bucks.  So, how does D handle it now that Callie has been wooed by Moses? Poor D!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2014)

D does get depressed sometimes. But he is a confident dominant watcher. Completely independent and does not need anyone.
They still do love each other because sometimes if I need a dog somewhere else and I move D to go with some other group Callie will after a few days get a little whiny.
We have raised all the LGD's to have autonomy so each dog is highly independent but we do group or pair then by their traits. In every field we have a watcher and a patroller. That is the best team pairing. 
My newest team , which I don't do littermates but we have kept Elisa and Chunk they are both highly independent not needy of each other and float to their own tune. Chunk is a watcher. Elisa is a patroller.  My Chunk is going to be 8 months on the 11th or 12th... he is fast becoming the lead dog. He is taking over his fathers position. 
Chunk is also highly bonded to me and I am his "goat" too. I am D's also... D is Chunks Uncle... and the two are almost identical in everyway.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> D does get depressed sometimes. But he is a confident dominant watcher. Completely independent and does not need anyone.
> They still do love each other because sometimes if I need a dog somewhere else and I move D to go with some other group Callie will after a few days get a little whiny.
> We have raised all the LGD's to have autonomy so each dog is highly independent but we do group or pair then by their traits. In every field we have a watcher and a patroller. That is the best team pairing.
> My newest team , which I don't do littermates but we have kept Elisa and Chunk they are both highly independent not needy of each other and float to their own tune. Chunk is a watcher. Elisa is a patroller.  My Chunk is going to be 8 months on the 11th or 12th... he is fast becoming the lead dog. He is taking over his fathers position.
> Chunk is also highly bonded to me and I am his "goat" too. I am D's also... D is Chunks Uncle... and the two are almost identical in everyway.



That's good to know that D is coping with less attention from Callie, but also that Callie still needs that connection with D.  How do you train your dogs to be watchers and patrollers? Or is that something that they just do instinctually?

You said you don't usually put litter mates together. Can I ask why?  I just started a journal, about our LGDs. Any input there would be greatly appreciated. Today, after a lot of thought and consideration, we bought our puppy's brother.  I've written more about it in my new journal:

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/devonviolet-our-lgd-adventure.30307/#post-377431


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## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2014)

Whether a dog is a watcher or patroller is ingrained within.
No you cannot train them to be either one.
I am not a fan of litter mates in general as each dog must have their own autonomy as well as the pecking order established as young pups will continue with them. This is not always good. There me be a particular dog that may not reach it's full potential because it is "trapped" in the order of that pack.  
I personally never recommend buying a pup until it has been evaluated. Patroller and patroller will not be the best team, that is usually a nightmare waiting to happen especially on small farm placements. Not a huge deal on 100 acres. 
Watcher and Patrollers are in every field.
I am a trainer... trained for many years. First worked with Kuvasz back in the 80's,  starting in 1990 Anatolians and Tibetin Mastiffs followed. In a different capacity.
Long Story short when we started with actual LGD's and had a farm I saw how little good info was out there and that much of the info was terrible. Everything from dogs should be left alone or they won't bond etc to stick them in the field and they will know what to do. 
Evaluating LGD's is different than other breeds and many who breed LGD's have zero ability to evaluate. Yes the majority of the LGD breeds will instinctively grow up to guard but matching environment to correct placement is critical. Of course the majority of people getting these dogs will have dogs that eventually guard and they will be great guardians however more often than not they go through issues they never needed to.
We start observations at 3 weeks dominance is often seen at this age. By 5 an order is established, by 6 next stage of development begins. At 8 weeks we are watching for many behavior traits. This 2 week period is important. At 10 weeks we do a preliminary evaluation and test.
We include noise testing at this time, evals are done off site.
From 10-12 weeks we finalize our evaluations. Each pup is placed for the exact environment and matched if going into an established LGD home. 
Starting here you can see how our litter grew up
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/minnie-blurb-pup-3-pics.27247/page-3

Final evals for the first litter here
Imprinting here

12 weeks is the earliest we will let a pup go.


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## norseofcourse (Dec 7, 2014)

Those puppies are soooo cute!  I think Decorah would make a neat girl dog's name...


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Whether a dog is a watcher or patroller is ingrained within.
> No you cannot train them to be either one.
> I am not a fan of litter mates in general as each dog must have their own autonomy as well as the pecking order established as young pups will continue with them. This is not always good. There me be a particular dog that may not reach it's full potential because it is "trapped" in the order of that pack.
> I personally never recommend buying a pup until it has been evaluated. Patroller and patroller will not be the best team, that is usually a nightmare waiting to happen especially on small farm placements. Not a huge deal on 100 acres.
> ...



Gee, Southern.  I wish we weren't a long two days drive away from y'all! I can do a one day drive. But, the 2 day drive from NC to TX, when we moved here, almost killed me.  Doing it both ways just doesn't appeal to me. 

I hope we didn't make a mistake taking litter mates now.  I did pray about it and felt I was given the go ahead. The non-refundable deposits are paid.  So, we will see how things go.  Thanks for your input.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

norseofcourse said:


> Those puppies are soooo cute!  I think Decorah would make a neat girl dog's name...


That is a cute name.  We are going to stick with Italian names, since they have Italian blood in them.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2014)

*When the Lord leads things work out*!
My 2 male pyrs are siblings, but I train so I made sure they were socialized together yet they developed into "who" they were meant to be. I had no intention of getting the 2nd male... long story but in the end I am glad I did.
One of the people that got a pup from the first litter really had their heart set on a particular dog. They saw the pups (no handling though) when they were days old. They drove to our house every week and saw the pups grow. They also knew I don't let people "pick". I narrow the choices down to the particular pup that suits their environment. That could be one pup or three pups etc, depending on size of litter. 
I love the livestock guardian dog and I have a heart for those tat farm. I never wanted my dogs to be out of price range for the average farmer. Out of the 2 litters I have not pocketed one penny.
Truthfully, I don't even cover my costs. I love working, training, teaching, and evaluating. I do not care for breeding at all. Before the 2 litters it had been 25 years I think , since I bred a litter (of one of my own dogs).  I prefer to take others pups and bring them in for training.  The other issue for me is when I have a spectacular dog I always want to keep it for myself.

Chunk is my superdog. Way mature for his age, highly confident, extremely discerning and he has decided that he has taken ownership... of me. He displays his ownership the moment I go in the field.  I know it stems from when he was a baby. He was a growler and domineering... at 3 weeks I would put all the pups on their backs, gently rubbing their belly and neck... he was a fighter. I knew that had to be worked with... through that I became the alpha and also a strong trust and bond was built. He has never stepped out of line. Looks at the other pups like they are nuts when they trot after a chicken.
I kinda feel selfish for keeping him.
He is the most focused pup I have seen since an Anotolian pup some years back.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 7, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> *When the Lord leads things work out*!
> My 2 male pyrs are siblings, but I train so I made sure they were socialized together yet they developed into "who" they were meant to be. I had no intention of getting the 2nd male... long story but in the end I am glad I did.
> One of the people that got a pup from the first litter really had their heart set on a particular dog. They saw the pups (no handling though) when they were days old. They drove to our house every week and saw the pups grow. They also knew I don't let people "pick". I narrow the choices down to the particular pup that suits their environment. That could be one pup or three pups etc, depending on size of litter.
> I love the livestock guardian dog and I have a heart for those tat farm. I never wanted my dogs to be out of price range for the average farmer. Out of the 2 litters I have not pocketed one penny.
> ...



I'm glad you were able to have the pyr siblings work together, and yet develop into who they were meant to be. Is there a secret for how to do that?  Is it more difficult when you have a male and female?   I have never worked with LGDs before, and I know that working with them is different,from working with other dogs.  But, I did obedience train a couple of my own dogs a number of years back.  One of them was a Springer Spaniel, that had been inbred, causing her to have "rage syndrome", which made it difficult to work with her.  I was able to get the message across - by putting her in that submissive position on the floor, that you were talking about.  

It's a bit different, but we have two rather large, strong willed cats, that we got as kittens.  We have managed to bring them both around using a similar method.  Now they sleep on their back, and purr when I rub their tummy.  And they come when I call them!  

Thanks for your feedback on all of this.


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## goats&moregoats (Dec 9, 2014)

@Devonviolet ,  I understand what @Southern by choice is talking about in not developing into their own.  I recently got sibling Great Pyr from a Rescue. These two are great dogs and I am glad I got them. However, Tahoe the female is the dominant one and Yukon her brother definitely did not come into his own. It's like he waits for permission from her to do most anything, but does follow my commands with a bit of hesitation.

He is not like that when on the leash and taken out of pasture. On leash he is totally different, doing his own thing, but listens to commands from me with no issue. Just different.

Maybe working them in different pastures will help? Don't really know because I am new to LGDs but just a thought.

Pictures are beautiful, Thank you for posting them.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 9, 2014)

goats&moregoats said:


> @Devonviolet ,  I understand what @Southern by choice is talking about in not developing into their own.  I recently got sibling Great Pyr from a Rescue. These two are great dogs and I am glad I got them. However, Tahoe the female is the dominant one and Yukon her brother definitely did not come into his own. It's like he waits for permission from her to do most anything, but does follow my commands with a bit of hesitation.
> 
> He is not like that when on the leash and taken out of pasture. On leash he is totally different, doing his own thing, but listens to commands from me with no issue. Just different.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you enjoyed the photos.  

I'm looking forward to getting our puppies, and working with them, to see how their personalities play into their dynamic, as a working team.


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