# Baby goat has runny loose poop



## Jody (Mar 17, 2010)

My baby Nigerian wether is 17 days old.  Up til today his poops have been normal.  He's been living inside my home since I got him when he was 8 days old, up until yesterday which was his first overnight out doors.

  Today, 2 times I noticed loose runny poops.. not quite a liquid, but more like a super squishy gel.  It was yellow, whereas before his poops were a bit more orange and more firm.

  How do I know if it's due to bacterial, viral, protozwhatever, or coccidiosis related, or even if it's from the milk replacer?

  What's changed other than housing is in the milk mix I added 2 and half grams of probios to 2quarts milk.  Could this be the cause?

  He's been on a calf milk replacer since I got him, however, I mixed 2qts with 1 can carnation canned milk + 1qt buttermilk, & 1 pump of Nutri-Drench and he was fine on that

  The diareah come after having the milk with probios.  Could this be the cause?

  I'm trying to keep him hydrated with fluids.  I gave him water with electrolytes, but he won't drink much..  That was this morning.. he had maybe around 2 ounces..

  Tonight I tried getting him to take more, but he won't suckle.. got maybe a couple squirts from the nipple.

  In my water/electrolyte mix I added 1/3 teaspoon of corrid into 20oz water

  He's active when awake, however does sleep alot, has been wanting to drink milk when it's hungry and has been chewing tiny pieces of hay.

The poops fall off and are not quite the mess as seen in some photos found online, but they're gel like and concern me.

  What should I do other than make sure he gets water/electrolytes and just incase it's coccidiosis or to prevent such, how much corrid do I mix into a 20oz bottle of water?


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## helmstead (Mar 17, 2010)

CoRid is only effective at VERY high doses, and not diluted.  This sounds like a cocci bloom to me...altho you do need to stop changing his diet, and quit giving him anything besides milk out of the bottle (use electrolyte paste if you want to give him electrolytes).

I'd switch to Dimethox/Albon and treat for cocci.  If you would rather use the CoRid which you  already have, PM me for correct dosages.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 17, 2010)

I don't know if this is true in goat kids but Corid doesn't work for alpaca crias. We use Albon or SMZ-TMP.


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## helmstead (Mar 17, 2010)

It will work at a very high dosage...but I don't use it as a primary...I might use it in conjunction with Dimethox or following Dimethox when I have a particulary bad run with cocci...

The reason it's not effective is the darn directions on the container...they WAY underdose, which has created resistant strains.


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## Roll farms (Mar 17, 2010)

I prefer not to use corid, as it inhibits vitamin b absorption....which is what kills off the cocci....and can (not usual, but possible) lead to goat polio (thiamine deficiency).

I have to second the 'stop changing the kid's diet'....Mother nature gives them milk alone, and she seems to know what she's doing.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 18, 2010)

At this age kids don't need probios because their rumen isn't even functioning much, if at all.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2010)

atk said:
			
		

> At this age kids don't need probios because their rumen isn't even functioning much, if at all.


I'll second the above -- Probios is for the rumen.  

What you have to understand is that when a baby goat nurses, something called the "esophageal groove" closes and allows the milk to bypass the rumen and go directly into the abomasum.  Sooo...feeding probios in a bottle allows the probios to go directly into the abomasum instead of the rumen.

Not to mention, probios is made of active bacterial cultures which are designed to break down fiber.  I have literally no idea what they do when they get in milk replacer, but milk + live bacteria....I wouldn't think it would be a _good_ thing, necessarily.  

What's especially troubling is that you mentioned mixing the probios in 2 quarts of replacer...  A 17-day old baby doesn't take two quarts at a time, which means the Probios was mixed with the replacer and then allowed to "incubate" until the next feedings.

But, again...I dunno how the bacteria in Probios react to milk replacer anyway.  


If this one were here and its stool softened up a bit after me changing its diet around, I'd probably just withhold the bottle and see if it stops.  Sometimes that's all it takes.

Of course, that's provided it's not obviously depressed, squirting _water_, and becoming dehydrated.  At that point, I'd put some kind of antibiotic (Scour-Halt, Neomycin, SMZ-TMP, etc) in his gut.  If the squirting was really bad, I'd probably hydrate him with SQ Ringer's solution, too...just to avoid putting more stuff in an already-troubled gut.


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## Roll farms (Mar 18, 2010)

OK, I keep seeing this "Probios is no good for baby goats" comment and it's making me buggy.... humans and chickens don't have a rumen at all, yet they STILL recommend it to both...and horses...and dogs...

The good bugs are ALSO in the intestine, NOT just the rumen, and I have seen Probios help 1-2 wk old kids w/ scours as well as baby chicks w/ sticky bums...

New slogan..."Probios, it's NOT just for rumens anymore."


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2010)

This thread got me looking at what exactly is in Probios for rumenants..  A quick google search tells me that folks use three of the bacteria (lactobacillus-acidophilus, -casei, and -plantarum) to create a fermented milk product that's supposed to do...something...for health.

The term "lactobacillus" apparently means "milk bacteria," so it would make sense that _something_ would happen if you were to drop a few billion of them directly into milk or milk replacer..  

I don't claim to know how the fermentation process works, but perhaps what happened here is that the OP fermented the milk accidentally by infusing it with live cultures in Probios....and perhaps it's the _fermented_ milk -- while not toxic or spoiled, per se -- that's causing the scour on account of having become something just plain old _different_ than regular milk.

Pure speculation, of course..  

ETA:

In looking up 'fermented milk products,' the US name is "Clabber" according to the always correct, never-ever wrong Wikipedia.  

I will say this, though...there's a reason why rennet is used to make cheese, and there's a reason why rennet occurs naturally in the stomachs of mammals.  It turns milk to cheese in the stomach, basically.

Which begs the question...would rennet turn _fermented milk_ into cheese?!?


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> What's especially troubling is that you mentioned mixing the probios in 2 quarts of replacer...  A 17-day old baby doesn't take two quarts at a time, which means the Probios was mixed with the replacer and then allowed to "incubate" until the next feedings.


One, because the mixing instructions are 1 cup powder to 2qts water.
  It's not an actual cup of powder, it's one level cup of the one included in the package, 10oz I think, and I have no means of measuring ounces, so 2qts it is at a time. 

Two, because I have more than 1 baby goat.

  Anyway, starting today I am withholding milk and giving him just water with electrolytes and CorRid.    During 2nd feeding of this today, his stool appears to be thickening.  It's not diareah like, more like a soft squishy paste and is schoolbus yellow


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## helmstead (Mar 18, 2010)

Please stop withholding milk!  Water should not be fed to baby goats in bottles!  I recommended electrolyte PASTE to you via PM for a reason...  

All you are doing is setting him up for another digestive upset.  And the Corid should be a straight drench, not mixed into anything.  It tastes like CRAP and will make the kid not want the bottle at all.

Bottle feed this kid like normal...don't mix things into his bottle milk, DOSE them.  

Good luck.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 18, 2010)

There are different types of probiotics for different animals.  Probios is generally used in animals ruminants (and horses, who are hind-gut fermenters) to help stimulate the rumen.  I see no reason to feed probios to baby goats who aren't even ruminating.  I think by adding all sorts of things to milk, we're asking for trouble.  I'm not saying this is the case here, but I generally feel like we shouldn't fix it unless it's broken.  To each his/her own though.  




			
				helmstead said:
			
		

> Please stop withholding milk!  Water should not be fed to baby goats in bottles!  I recommended electrolyte PASTE to you via PM for a reason...
> 
> All you are doing is setting him up for another digestive upset.  And the Corid should be a straight drench, not mixed into anything.  It tastes like CRAP and will make the kid not want the bottle at all.
> 
> ...


Why do you say not to feed water by bottles?  Is it specifically a goat thing?  It's common practice to feed some type of electrolyte to calves via a water bottle and withhold milk until scouring stops.  

Yesterday my 12 day old doeling had a slight case of scours. She refused her morning bottle, I fed electrolyte/water bottle in the afternoon, and she was totally fine.  Now she's back to her regular bottle schedule.  

Many electrolyte solutions say to withhold milk while feeding, so I'm curious to hear why you advise the above.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2010)

Alright..  I'm gonna say my piece and jump off.

Stop everything you're doing with this kid and let it be for a day.  Let it eat hay if it wants, and put down a dish of warm water.  Don't bottle feed it anything.  

If the poop is just squishy and isn't coming in profuse bouts of squirting dirty or blood-tinged water or anything like that, don't worry too much over electrolytes...it's not going to dehydrate from squishy poo.

If the poo doesn't begin to firm up once milk's withheld for a while, or if it begins to get worse..._then_ start looking into medications.

If it firms up, super.  Offer half a bottle of whatever it was getting before the scour...as in, without the ProBios.  Then just work it back up to where you need to be in terms of frequency and volume of feedings.

That's my advice.  Take it for what it cost ya.


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Please stop withholding milk!  Water should not be fed to baby goats in bottles!  I recommended electrolyte PASTE to you via PM for a reason...
> 
> All you are doing is setting him up for another digestive upset.  And the Corid should be a straight drench, not mixed into anything.  It tastes like CRAP and will make the kid not want the bottle at all.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I did not get any Pm from you, two, how do you suggest I give him CorRid without mixing it into anything?  Should I shove the powder down his throat undiluted?  The directions on the package state to mix it with water...  As for him not wanting the bottle, he's been suckling the water/electrolytes/CorRid mix all day today without issue.

  If I do not withhold milk, then how do I ascertain if it's too much/rich milk, or bacterial/viral?   

Nonetheless, the dilemma continues.. he still has runny poops, now however, they're worse and he has not had any milk today..  So, how do I ascertain whether it's coccidia, e coli or other?


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Alright..  I'm gonna say my piece and jump off.
> 
> Stop everything you're doing with this kid and let it be for a day.  Let it eat hay if it wants, and put down a dish of warm water.  Don't bottle feed it anything.
> 
> ...


So far, all has been yellow.. looks like normal color, but more runny than before


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## ksalvagno (Mar 18, 2010)

It is probably time to either involve an extremely knowledgeable goat farmer or a vet. My preference would be a vet. While we all try very hard to help people over the internet, sometimes we just can't diagnose things when we aren't physically looking at the problem. As far as knowing what is the cause of the diarrhea, until you take a fecal sample in to a vet and have it checked, there is no way to know. At this point my feeling is that a fecal should be done and a vet checking this kid and go from there. It is amazing how fast babies can go from being ok to dead. I'm not trying to scare you but I have seen it happen in alpacas and I know it happens in goats too.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2010)

Jody (last night) said:
			
		

> Today, 2 times I noticed loose runny poops.. not quite a liquid, but more like a super squishy gel.  It was yellow, whereas before his poops were a bit more orange and more firm.
> ...
> I'm trying to keep him hydrated with fluids.  I gave him water with electrolytes, but he won't drink much..  That was this morning.. he had maybe around 2 ounces..
> ...
> ...





			
				Jody said:
			
		

> Anyway, starting today I am withholding milk and giving him just water with electrolytes and CorRid.    During 2nd feeding of this today, his stool appears to be thickening.  It's not diareah like, more like a soft squishy paste and is schoolbus yellow





			
				Jody said:
			
		

> As for him not wanting the bottle, he's been suckling the water/electrolytes/CorRid mix all day today without issue.
> ...
> Nonetheless, the dilemma continues.. he still has runny poops, now however, they're worse and he has not had any milk today..  So, how do I ascertain whether it's coccidia, e coli or other?





			
				Jody said:
			
		

> So far, all has been yellow.. looks like normal color, but more runny than before


Ok, so lemme see if I got this straight...

The goat's poop was normal up until yesterday morning, when you noticed two loose, runny poops that were sorta like gel and would "fall off," indicating some level of firmness...  He wasn't as messy as some pictures you see, so I'm guessing this wasn't a "scour down the back of the legs" situation..  

The differences in regimen were that you mixed probios into the milk, and he'd just spent his first night outside.

When you saw what was going on yesterday morning, you mixed up some water/electrolyte/CoRid, but he didn't want to take it.  He got just a little of the mixture, but he did drink milk yesterday.

Starting today, you took him off milk and offered only the water/electrolyte/CoRid mixture, which he took more readily.  After his 2nd feeding of the water/electrolyte/CoRid mixture today, his poo started looking a little more firm and he was taking the mixture readily.

Now the poops are getting runnier, though, and he hasn't had any milk today.  Poop is now runny and yellow.


Is that right?


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## helmstead (Mar 18, 2010)

Jody I replied to your PM yesterday...wish I had saved it, too...dang.

Sounds like it's time for vet + fecal + SMZ TMP.  Good luck with him and keep us posted.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2010)

Yeah...at this point, if he's had a scour since yesterday morning and it seems to be getting worse despite being held off milk, I'd probably be looking toward the medicine cabinet myself.

I agree with Helmstead, too....SMZ-TMP would be a good choice here.  The SMZ portion (Sulfamethoxazole) is effective against coccidia, while the TMP portion (Trimethoprim) is effective against bacteria like e.coli.  Since we don't really know for sure what's going on, it's probably best to use something that goes after both.

How is he acting through all this..  Is he depressed, grinding teeth, kicking at his belly, etc...or is he more or less normal, but with runny poop?

Have you checked his temperature, by any chance?


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Jody (last night) said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Correct.


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Yeah...at this point, if he's had a scour since yesterday morning and it seems to be getting worse despite being held off milk, I'd probably be looking toward the medicine cabinet myself.
> 
> I agree with Helmstead, too....SMZ-TMP would be a good choice here.  The SMZ portion (Sulfamethoxazole) is effective against coccidia, while the TMP portion (Trimethoprim) is effective against bacteria like e.coli.  Since we don't really know for sure what's going on, it's probably best to use something that goes after both.
> 
> ...


He's acting normal as usual.  No dehydration, still has appetite and is very playful as usual.   I haven't taken temperature yet, again I forgot to pick up a thermometer.  I have one, but battery is dead and I don't see any screws to take it apart to change battery.

  An experienced goat owner, the seller whom sold me this goat, is coming to me on Monday.  Hopefully things improve ASAP, and if not, hopefully Monday is not too late.

He was on the water/electrolytes/CorRid mix all day up until about 2hrs ago when I gave him milk as I did not want him to have a hungry belly and his crying told me that he was very hungry.

  What's the average cost/charge for vet visit for this kind of thing, and the fecal test?  Any time I ever called a vet and asked how much it would cost so I could bring enough cash, not one has ever told me the cost until afterwards, other than the standard $75 to $200 just to walk in the door.


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## helmstead (Mar 18, 2010)

You SHOULD be able to take a fecal sample in and just pay the testing fee...which SHOULD be under $25.00.  You will want to find a vet with an in-office lab for more immediate results - if they send it off you'll have to wait a day or more.


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> You SHOULD be able to take a fecal sample in and just pay the testing fee...which SHOULD be under $25.00.  You will want to find a vet with an in-office lab for more immediate results - if they send it off you'll have to wait a day or more.


First thing in the morning I'll be on the phone to locate one that does in house testing.


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## Roll farms (Mar 18, 2010)

I'd suspect E Coli vs. coccidia at this point...if he's 17 days old, that's awful quick for cocci to go rampant....possible, but e coli usually hits them younger.

Feeding the kid probios won't prevent an outbreak of cocci or e coli, but it didn't make it worse, either.

http://www.fefana.org/resources/documents/publications/total def probio.pdf

This is a very in-depth article, but it states on page 31 that even when fed 1000x the recommended dose of probiotics, animals had no ill effects.  Most probiotic additives for animals have 'non-colonizing' bacteria, meaning they drift along, do their job, and get pooped out.

Probiotics are included in many goat and calf colostrum replacers and supplements....the companies who make it, wouldn't put it in there if it didn't serve a purpose.
JMHO...

I will continue to give it to kids, functioning rumens or not, who I feel need it.  I don't give it daily, or regularly, but if they have a bout of ecoli or are just 'off'...I truly believe it helps.  
Like I said, there's more to the digestive tract than just the rumen, and the entire thing is populated by beneficial fauna.


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## Jody (Mar 18, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'd suspect E Coli vs. coccidia at this point...if he's 17 days old, that's awful quick for cocci to go rampant....possible, but e coli usually hits them younger.


I'm gonna get a fecal test done.  If it does end up E Coli, I know I can use Neomycin, but what else works just in case I can't find this in stock locally?


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## Roll farms (Mar 18, 2010)

I personally have had good luck w/ Scour Halt.   

I don't know where you are, but most farm supply stores carry both Scour Halt and Neomycin.  I bought a bottle of Neomycin a few years ago but have never used it...the Scour Halt always works for me...and I like to start small, antibiotic-wise, hoping that if I ever do need to bring in a more powerful one, it will be effective for a while before I have to 'move up' again.

I put 2-3 pumps of scour halt down down their throats on an empty stomach (I wait an hr before I feed them) the first time, then I add 2 pumps to their morning and evening bottles for 3 days.

This is for full-sized kids, with a Nigi I'd probably go w/ 2 pumps.

Good luck and please keep us posted.


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## Jody (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, I woke up, went out to the goat pen and now I can't find any poops to bring in for testing.  I cleaned them all up before posting that I'd be getting a fecal test done.   No poop stuck on his anus this morning either.

  My wife and I were discussing our plan of action and now we believe it might be the water.    His milk has been prepared with spring water until we ran out which is when this started.  It started when we began feeding milk mixed with filtered well water.  I get diareah myself if my wife inadvertently makes coffee with this water.

  I'm supposed to shock disinfect the thing, but don't know how to open it, nor do I know how to calculate depth so I can do it appropriately.   All I can say at this point about the water is that it is high in iron and sulfur.   I say iron because it turns the drains and toilet red on porcelain, as well as the inside of the faucet filter.

  I say sulfur because often there is a noticeable smell much like rotten eggs.

  Now that I think about this more, there appears to be biological issues as well.

  So, if there is a poop found to be brought in, preferably a fresh wet one on his anus, do I swab some with a q tip and put it in a baggy?   How much do I need?  I don't think it should be on that's on the ground cause it could alter test results, right?

  I should be getting the water tested, but I recall calling well companies when I moved into this place last summer and the costs were astronomical for me at the time, plus I rent the property and the owner continually ignores my repeated complaints about it.


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## helmstead (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeeps!  You should be able to get the water tested for free or nearly free by your county extension office...that's where I'd call next.

Glad the kid seems to have cleared up.  You don't need a very large sample at all for a fecal...one adult berry or one lil pile of kid mush will suffice.  Think about that little fecal stick the vet uses on dogs and cats...


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## Jody (Mar 19, 2010)

Called county extension, no water testing available. 

During next feeding, baby did another runny poop.  Used q tips and brought sample to vet.  Results should be ready within the next 20mins.  Prior to test, vet suggested milk replacer as a potential culprit if no biologicals are found in feces.

  Milk replacement used is Blue Seal Kwik Mix calf milk replacer.  I notice it lacks copper + selenium, necessary nutrients for goats.  Although I still have 20lbs of this stuff, I'm going to get out and get manna pro kid milk replacer today.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 19, 2010)

Jody said:
			
		

> Although I still have 20lbs of this stuff, I'm going to get out and get manna pro kid milk replacer today.


If you do that, switch him over to it slowly to avoid yet another digestive upset.  That's the last thing you need right now..


Overall, given that he's still alive, alert, active, and playing, it's getting harder and harder for me to imagine this being a serious pathogenic bacteria..  

Think about this..  Bacterial enteritis in goats is basically the equivalent of food poisoning in humans.  If you're truly a victim of food poisoning, you get really sick in a _systemic_ sort of way..  Fever, sweats, chills, etc..  You don't go on about your day as normal...you're laying on the couch with a bucket and a cool rag over your head at best, writhing in pain and literally about to die at worst.  

If, however, you make a bad decision and eat a bagful of soft tacos with hot sauce...and get the squirts...you more or less just go on about your day thinking to yourself "Boy o' boy, I won't do _that_ again anytime soon..." and in a little while, things go back to normal.  

In my experience, that's sorta the difference between bacterial scours and dietary scours in goats..  When it's a serious pathogen, the goat looks like you'd look if you were food poisoned.  If it's dietary, the goat may act a little tummy-achy and mildly depressed, but not sick sick.

As for coccidiosis...there hasn't been any true dysentary yet, as far as I can tell..  No "dirty water" poops or blood-streaked feces, blood clots, shreds of epithelium from the intestines..  So, if coccidiosis is the culprit, it would appear to be mild at worst.  

Even with mild coccidiosis that shows some diarrhea, the kid will usually act somewhat sick and not want much to do with food.  He may also be a wee bit anemic if it's coccidiosis, although I personally think straight-up dehydration is often mistaken for anemia..

But, again....given that he's more or less normal, but with soft poops...it's looking more and more like a dietary scour to me.

Still....if they find anything in the poo whatsoever, I'd do some SMZ-TMP just to be safe.



Now, I'm really hoping some other folks here will chime in on what I've just said to tell me either "You're crazy!" or "I was thinking the same thing"...or anything in between.

Anybody?


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 19, 2010)

Jody said:
			
		

> Called county extension, no water testing available.


Try your local Health Department.


And CM, makes sense to me.



About the milk replacer, are you sure you're mixing it the correct strength? Not over feeding, not changing water temps, etc.  Just thinking while I'm typing.


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## Jody (Mar 19, 2010)

Test results are negative for any parasitic bacteria, coccida, etc.  only thing not tested for is e-coli.   

So, it looks like it is diet related considering the lack of sick behavior in the goat.

Thank you everyone for your help, advice and suggestions.

  Also, how do I switch over to a different milk replacer?  Should I mix some of the new with the other brand, say 75% old brand 25% manna pro kid milk, then next day increase to 50/50, and 3rd day 25/75, and on 4th 100%, or should it be slower?


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## cmjust0 (Mar 19, 2010)

Jody said:
			
		

> Test results are negative for any parasitic bacteria, coccida, etc.  only thing not tested for is e-coli.
> 
> So, it looks like it is diet related considering the lack of sick behavior in the goat.
> 
> ...


I'd go slower, personally..

Actually, if it were mine, I'd be swapping it from replacer to the whole milk+condensed milk+buttermilk recipe I've used before.

I'm just not a fan of replacer.


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## helmstead (Mar 19, 2010)

I had the same issue with replacer, which is why I use store bought cow's milk when I don't have a doe milking.

 that he's not sick!  

cmjust0 - I gotta tell ya...cocci doesn't always present with scouring...cocci can also cause CONSTIPATION (tell me if that isn't confusing as all get out)...


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## Roll farms (Mar 19, 2010)

GOATS are just confusing as all get out....

Once you think you've got something figured out (like cocci symptoms, etc.) they go and throw in some odd symptom....or spontaneously get better...or suddenly get worse.

I agree w/ not using replacer...some folks have great luck with it, but I have never been one of them.  We use whole Vitamin D milk (bought on sale, we stock up and freeze the surplus until needed) when there isn't enough goat milk to go around.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> cmjust0 - I gotta tell ya...cocci doesn't always present with scouring...cocci can also cause CONSTIPATION (tell me if that isn't confusing as all get out)...


I know..  That's why I wrote:



			
				me said:
			
		

> Even with mild coccidiosis that shows some diarrhea, ....


Like, as opposed to acute coccidiosis that presents with _dysentary_, or chronic coccidiosis that presents with...well, nothing in some cases except a poor doer and possibly some anemia.  Or constipation, I suppose..  

I was just saying that the kid was doing fine otherwise, and the diet -- the _calf milk replacer_ diet, I might add -- had been screwed around with, and the goat wasn't dead yet, so I was just sorta starting to lean heavily toward it being dietary.


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