# first time mama rabbit didn't pull fur for nest



## Delighted

I have a young doe that gave birth unexpectedly yesterday.  She was living with her brother-- and I had seen fiestiness in the one bunny awhile back, but didn't put two and two together.  I had bred my other two does on purpose a month ago and one doe had babies late Sat night.  Then yesterday, I thought to check on the young pair of bunnies while checking on the two does.  Lo and behold there were babies everywhere-- on the wire.  All alive, all mildly cold.  Quickly got the one I thought was the male out (Double-checked to be sure and I think I got the right one!)  Grabbed a shoebox-- the only thing I had at the moment, dumped hay and pine shavings in and placed the babies in--and had to leave for a church function.  

Came back at 9 pm.  Babies still alive, but all over the cardboard box, not snuggled up.  And crying.  And cold.   Shoved 'em all together, they crawled apart.  Went in and got a washcloth, put them all in it and bundled it all around them-- that seemed to keep them contatained, but they were still crying.  I warmed two bricks in my microwave and put them cornered at the corner, shoved baby bundle in corner.  That stopped them from trying to crawl out, but didn't stop the crying.  Figured she hadn't fed them and wouldn't while I was there.  So I left for 15 mn.  Came back, babies were not crying, were somewhat warmer.  But it's supposed to drop into low 40's last night and those bricks weren't gonna stay warm all night.  So I took just the washcloth bundle out and brought them inside to a small cage, where I bundled them a bit more and placed out of reach of Cat.  

I'm taking them back out to mama in a few minutes and have to leave the house, so can't watch to see what she does-- will be back about 9 am and hope they're still alive.   Still only have pine shavings and hay for bedding-- and the washcloth.  

Any advice?  Should I have left them out there last night?  (the nest wasn't deep at all)

Thanks


----------



## Delighted

Update--Hope I can get a reply, I'm still new to this, if they live, it will only be my second litter to live.

I built a new nestbox, put them in, stole some fur from the other mama doe, placed this young doe in nest--she has no interest.  Comparison between new does babies and older doe's babies in quite apparent--there are 9 in the other litter and they're fat and velvety.  New mama's litter is still alive but def not fat and velvety.

Anyone have any advice?
Thanks


----------



## yankee'n'moxie

I'll try to bump this a little, but I don't know much about rabbits, yet. 

Umm, how many are in her litter? So, if I understand right, she isn't feeding them? Is there any kind of milk replacer for bunnies like there is for cows, goats, etc? If she doesn't start feeding them soon, maybe you should find out...

Sorry, this isn't very helpful, I haven't bred my bunny yet, I just got her 2 weeks ago, and she is too young. I am hoping that someone else will chime in...


----------



## DianeS

First litters often die. It's sad, but it's very very common. First time moms just don't seem to have the instincts to correctly care for their kits. They often don't build nests, don't pull fur, and/or don't nurse.

If it were me, I would make a good, deep nest with the hay that you have available, use dryer lint or pulled apart cotton balls in place of fur, and leave the kits with mom. (No washcloth. They can get trapped on the wrong side of it.) Either she feeds them or she doesn't - it's extremely rare (almost impossible) to successfully bottle feed kits that young. 

It isn't mom that keeps the kits warm, it's the kits themselves in a deep nest with fur or fur replacement that keep each other warm. Once they are warm to begin with (you did right providing supplimental heat at the beginning), they can be left alone even if mom ignores them. 40 degree temps won't bother them if the nest is snug, but taking them inside for the night was fine too.

Mom will only nurse once or twice a day. And each session will only be a few minutes long. She'll ignore the kits other than that. So your only indication of whether they're being fed is the size of their tummies.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and know that this doe's next litter is likely to be taken care of much better as her instincts kick in.


----------



## Delighted

Thanks to both of you for replying.  I truly appreciate it-- it's hard when you type something out and no one replies!  So Y&M, even though you don't know anything, it was helpful that someone was willing to commiserate with me! (I've done that for other people, too--can't get them all, though)

Unfortunately, when I went out to check the babies this morning, they were all cold , stiff and dead.  I tried warming them up-- nuttin. 

Diane, I knew that, really I did--my other two does, both were horrible mothers on their first litters, I tried feeding and saving one litter-- didn't work, but the older doe is now a great mother-- the other older doe didn't get pregnant, or her babies were absorbed, or something (I'd mated them both at the same time, and one had babies and the other didn't)  Unfortunately, that makes strike two for her (First litter she killed, second "pregnancy" didn't take)  Third strike and she'll be a tasty stew! 

With this young one, I knew not to get excited and count on her babies, but dangit, I got all excited anyway!  lol!  This girl didn't do the nest, never did pull fur and maybe fed them once--the bellies weren't overly fat, but the babies weren't super thin, either.  I appreciate the info about building the nest, next time-- I see some mistakes not to do next time-- skip the washcloth, go ahead and use cotton balls (I'd thought about it but wasn't sure) Here's the biggest mistake:  I did, at first, make the nest nice and deep.  Those babies had about 4" of fluff on all sides--even on top of them.  My son saw the thickness of the stuff on top and worried she wouldn't know they were there, and asked if he could unbury them.  So they went into last night-- in the low 40's, with almost no covering on them--I think they were too close to the surface and the cold air.  My mistake.  But I also think mama didn't do a night feeding, either, because they were thinner than yesterday-- empty bellies, I'm guessing.

So lesson learned about the nest, but she still didn't do her part.  I'd had the thought to shove some of them in with the other mama's babies yesterday, but didn't for two reasons.  One. the other mama already has nine babies!  And while they are only a half-day older, they already look heartier and healthier and bigger, so these guys mighta died anyway.  Second, there were only four in the other litter, if I'd taken only one, there would have been that much less body heat for the others.  So, siiiiigh, maybe next time?  I have her in with a male today 

Thanks for your help!


----------



## DianeS

Good choice to rebreed her immediately. They are SO fertile right after giving birth! 

You're probably right about her not feeding them - it is so obvious when you see a fed litter beside an unfed litter, isn't it?


----------



## Delighted

Question:  The other mama, who's feeding 9.  I want to rebreed her, too, before it just gets too hot, but didn't do that because she's feeding 9.  Can she handle it, or should I wait?

And, yes,  to your comment  about the fed litter compared to the unfed.  Images to take note of for each "next time".  It helps, and I'm learning--can't wait til I know enough to help the next person!

Thanks so much!

Edited to ask-- hmmmm- what is "Two- and a half cats"  lol!


----------



## secuono

Wait until the kits are 4wks old to rebred the mom. 
You could of put half in with one doe and the other half with the other doe.


----------



## DianeS

I'd wait to rebreed the mom that's nursing. It's nursing that takes a lot out of the doe - much harder on her than pregnancy. The earliest that is recommended for you to rebreed a nursing doe is when the babies start weaning, so that they are all likely to be weaned by the time she kindles the next litter.  

Most of what I'm reading recommends that the doe get to rest (being not pregnant and not nursing) 3-4 months of the year. Some people arrange that so that the doe has a few weeks in between every litter. Others give her that break all at once, like in the heat of summer or coldest of winter. So if you are giving yours a long break in the summer, I would do the earliest recommended rebreeding and do it when the largest kits are weaning themselves by primarially eating from mom's food dish rather than nursing. If you're looking for an easier to understand timeline, then rebreed when the kits are around 4 weeks of age, so the next litter is kindled when the first is 8 weeks and no longer nursing at all.

I haven't had the rebreeding issue yet with a nursing doe, I'm still losing litters since it's the first breeding for all my does. I just know what I want to do, and why. Hope that helps!

And the two-and-a-half cats thing... When my landlord learned that she was leasing to someone who had so many animals, she asked if she could leave her cat behind for us to care for. She can have him with her later, just not now, and didn't want to have to rehome him if she could avoid it. So we said yes, and count him as half a cat when we list "our" animals. We care for him and feed him, she pays the vet bills. He's a sweetie, and I love having a landlord that allows so many animals, so it works for us all. And gets me some interesting questions.


----------



## lexibot

Just in case anyone encounters this problem again, if the mother has a nice dewlap, you can pull some fur from it and put it in the nest.


----------

