# DEAD! 2nd or 3 White Dorper DEAD!



## rockdoveranch (Jul 11, 2011)

Dead:







Not Dead:






A 2nd of our 3 White Dorper sheep is DEAD!  She was alive and well this evening when I took this picture of her this evening.  I took the picture so I could send it to the breeder to show him she does not shed her wool.  It got up to 99 today and we decided to bring her into the working pen when it cooled down a bit for me to cut as much of the wool off of her that I could.  Her wool was 4 to 5 inches long!  REALLY!  I could not pull it out like I can on our other hair sheep when they are shedding.

We lay her down on her side.  My husband held her feet and I started cutting the wool off starting at her neck.  As I started slowly cutting towards her back end we realized she was very still.  She was DEAD!  Her rectum had prolapsed!  At least that is what I think it was.  There was a big pink bubble of shiny flesh coming out of her rectum!  I wanted to cut her open and take a look inside, but my husband did not want to, and I do not have the strength to do it by myself.

When the ram died we looked him over really well and he looked fine.  We did NOT check his back end!  I wish we had!  I wish we had!  I BET he prolapsed too.

The breeder cut the entire tails off all 3 sheep.  They were both January and February 2010 and we bought them last June.  They all looked like the one in the second pictuer.

I am SO upset.  Can a prolapse kill a sheep within minutes?  If happened so fast.  I hope she did not suffer.


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm confused...what's going on??


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## doxiemoxie (Jul 11, 2011)

oh no! Maurene, what happened?


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 11, 2011)

Not sure what I am doing here.  My posts are all messed up. Off to bed.  Stressful evening.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 11, 2011)

Oh NO!  Where did my copy go?  Am so upset that I somehow deleted it?  I will try to calm down and try again.


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

Ah, Maureen, I am so sorry


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## goodhors (Jul 11, 2011)

Wow, sorry to hear this about your sheep.  I have never heard of that happening in that way before, but sheep seem to die easily.  You never know what is "their last straw" in a stress situation.

We see prolapses with extremely short docked tails in 4-H.  Talking to folks, most sheep folks think short docking affects the muscles that keep prolapses from happening.  Certainly more visible with the very short/non-existant tails.

We have always gotten sheep and lambs with a bit more tail left on, even though the "apple-rump" look is most popular in 4-H and meat lamb showing.  Just is not a good management idea for sheep in the long run.

If you go Dorper shopping again, you can ask for a longer tail left on the sheep.  Tail doesn't have to be extreme, just enough left on to overhang the rectum itself.

Question, were the ram and ewe closely related?  Sometimes a weakness can be genetic in closely related animals.  Certain lines of breeding are known for the good and poor features they bring to the table in desirable choices of animals.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 11, 2011)

Goodhors,

I just looked at Sheep 201: Sheep diseases, and the prolapse looked more like the picture labeled prolapse starting.  Do you think she could have had a heart attack from the stress and died?  Or could her intestines twisted and something bad happened inside her as she started to prolapse?  We have had so few problems with the Barbado.  This all baffles me and makes me really REALLY SAD! 

I have pulled twins from our Barbado, basically a wild sheep, and even reached up inside to make sure there were no lambs remaining and they all survived and thrived even though all that stress!

I don't know if the ram and ewe are related.  I will ask the breeder.


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## carolinagirl (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh no!! I a so sorry you lost another one.  She was probably prone to prolapse because of her short tail dock.  Struggling and tensing up while being handled probably made it happen....but it would have happened when she lambed the first time anyway if the muscles were that weak. I doubt the prolapse killed her though.  I sure can't imagine what did!  That is really scary that they can die THAT easy.  And it seems really odd that two sheep from the same guy both died suddely with no symptoms.


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## jhm47 (Jul 12, 2011)

Most likely the ewe died from being stressed, and when the muscles relaxed, the "bubble' appeared.  A real prolapse does not look like a bubble, it looks a lot worse than that.  The wool wouldn't have hurt the ewe anyway.  Trying to remove it in extreme heat was what most likely killed her.  As long as sheep have access to plenty of cold water, shade, a breeze, and are not unduly stressed, they usually are fine.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 12, 2011)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Most likely the ewe died from being stressed, and when the muscles relaxed, the "bubble' appeared.  A real prolapse does not look like a bubble, it looks a lot worse than that.  The wool wouldn't have hurt the ewe anyway.  Trying to remove it in extreme heat was what most likely killed her.  As long as sheep have access to plenty of cold water, shade, a breeze, and are not unduly stressed, they usually are fine.


That's exactly what I was going to say. I'm betting it just stressed her too much and she couldn't take the stress combined with the heat.  When her body relaxed that's when she prolapsed.  A prolapse would not kill a sheep like that.  

  Sorry Rock. You're having a rough go of it lately  and that sucks.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 12, 2011)

I woke up feeling like I had been thrust into a Salvador Dali painting with objects towering over me and coming at me.  Last night seems so surreal.  

I don't know what was happening when I was trying to post.  I swear the first post had copy in it along with the pictures as I know I previewed it first before submitting, but then there was no copy after at least one person replied.  When I saw there was not copy I went back to edit it adding words, and ended up with two posts with pictures and copy.  But that did not seem to happen at first.  Oh well.  The OP is there now. 

We have had sheep for almost 7 years.  I know that is not a long time, but we are having things happen that have never happened before.  

Are some breeds more likely to die from stress than others?  How can this happen so quickly?  Why has this never happened before?  Did we pick the right breed for what we wanted, a hearty, meat hair sheep, but picked the wrong breeder? 

We considered not trying to cut her wool back because we did not want to stress the ewes that are still pregnant while we were separating the one that died from the herd.  As it turned out, none of the pregnant ewes walked into the pen so we brought her on into the working pen.  We were going to have to cull her anyway because she was not what we bargained for in a hair sheep.  But having her die like this, I feel so responsible and bad.  

I agree in that it was not the rectum starting to prolapse that killed her because, after looking at pictures, it was just starting.  None-the-less we will never buy another lamb with no tail again.  If it is docked it is going to have to cover the rectum and vulva.

I will let you know if I hear back from the breeder.  My bet is that he will not respond.  I hope he proves me wrong.

Thanks for listening.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 12, 2011)

Her tail was docked pretty short, and it seems silly to me to dock hair sheep anyways, unless you're showing.  

Don't beat yourself up about it.  Sometimes animals just die.  My former boss sheared sheep and once had one die on him.  He felt bad but there was no way to know that sheep was going to die beforehand.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 12, 2011)

What I know about prolpses, is they can occur during times of stress, like a lot of coughing, and they are more likely to occur if the tails have been cut too short. 
We had a prolapse lamb this summer, and she had it for about a month before we fixed it, and she is doing just fine.  She only went off feed for a couple days, otherwise seemed perfectly fine. It was hanging out a good 6 inches by the time we fixed it.

I don't think the prolapse would kill her, especially sense it was hanging out prior to you trying to shear her, it can become impacted and not allow them to go to the bathroom, and they would go off feed and look horrible for a couple days then die.


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## Bossroo (Jul 12, 2011)

Only an observation and learning experience...  Texas has been in a draught for several years... poor quality/ dry  pasture feed   +    @ 2" of wool only on the back ( sides and belly wool already shed,from evening photo)  +  late stage of prenancy ( photo from that evening)   +   muscles in rear end starting to relax due to late stage of pregnancy in preperation of impending birth  +   99* +/- ,   + chaceing in working pen producing more body heat and stress    +   holding down to remove back wool ( more body heat and stress)    +   dehydration from above preveous factors = severe  heat stress and overheating resulting in  lack of oxygen in the bloodstream causing the brain cells to finally shut down and die.  Prolapse is the result of final stages of stress due to above episodes. I have seen the " big pink bubble of shiny flesh comming out of the rectum" in post mortem exams in all classes of animals that died under similar conditions in pre and post mortem situations. ie. stress and overheating resulting in gut flora rapidly reproducing causing excess intestinal gas to very rapidly increase (as in  colic) then try to escape as the presure builds up causing loose ( weakened) rectum muscles  to severely streatch resulting in the expelling of the intestine.  All types/ breeds of sheep as well as all classes of mammals will succumb under these similar types of conditions but to what degree will depend on indivuduals.   I personally have worked with and been around friends' flocks of well  over a THAUSAND short docked ( no tail remaining) Suffolk and Hampshire ewes over the years. Of those, I have seen TWO that had a prolapsed uterus after a difficult birth of twins/triplets. and THREE with a prolapsed anal intesine after severe bouts of bloat from very rich new pasture grass.  Good luck.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 12, 2011)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> Only an observation and learning experience...  Texas has been in a draught for several years... poor quality/ dry  pasture feed   +    @ 2" of wool only on the back ( sides and belly wool already shed,from evening photo)  +  late stage of prenancy ( photo from that evening)   +   muscles in rear end starting to relax due to late stage of pregnancy in preperation of impending birth  +   99* +/- ,   + chaceing in working pen producing more body heat and stress    +   holding down to remove back wool ( more body heat and stress)    +   dehydration from above preveous factors = severe  heat stress and overheating resulting in  lack of oxygen in the bloodstream causing the brain cells to finally shut down and die.  Prolapse is the result of final stages of stress due to above episodes. I have seen the " big pink bubble of shiny flesh comming out of the rectum" in post mortem exams in all classes of animals that died under similar conditions in pre and post mortem situations. ie. stress and overheating resulting in gut flora rapidly reproducing causing excess intestinal gas to very rapidly increase (as in  colic) then try to escape as the presure builds up causing loose ( weakened) rectum muscles  to severely streatch resulting in the expelling of the intestine.  All types/ breeds of sheep as well as all classes of mammals will succumb under these similar types of conditions but to what degree will depend on indivuduals.   I personally have worked with and been around friends' flocks of well  over a THAUSAND short docked ( no tail remaining) Suffolk and Hampshire ewes over the years. Of those, I have seen TWO that had a prolapsed uterus after a difficult birth of twins/triplets. and THREE with a prolapsed anal intesine after severe bouts of bloat from very rich new pasture grass.  Good luck.


Interesting information.  I wish I had posted about getting that wool off of her before we tried.

She was not pregnant.  She did not take when we had her and the other Dorper ewe in with the ram.  The other ewe lambed 4-15-2011.  This ewe never even began to bag out and we are more than 2 months out from when should would have lambed.  The ram lambs she was with now are just now about old enough to breed.  She is just fat from grazing all day.

We have one Barbado ewe that is a late shedder, but when you look at her she looks like she is covered with brown cotton balls that I can easily pull out.  I do not believe this Dorper, if she really was a Dorper, was going to shed.  Her wool, even at the edge on the short hair, did not pull out.   As I was cutting the wool away, the wool under the dirty wool was almost a golden yellow.  I guess I was seeing lanolin.  

We killed her!  I don't like learning the hard way.


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## doxiemoxie (Jul 12, 2011)

A vet I once worked with told me  that "sheep are always looking for a reason to die" and that even when you're trying to save them that can be the stressor that pushes them over the edge.  Please be gentle with yourself about this.  Your intentions were good, your actions were not unrational or even ignorant.  I am so sorry you have to endure this.  Prayers and hugs!


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 14, 2011)

doxiemoxie said:
			
		

> A vet I once worked with told me  that "sheep are always looking for a reason to die" and that even when you're trying to save them that can be the stressor that pushes them over the edge.  Please be gentle with yourself about this.  Your intentions were good, your actions were not unrational or even ignorant.  I am so sorry you have to endure this.  Prayers and hugs!


Thanks.


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## Beekissed (Jul 14, 2011)

She could have had a vasovagal response to the added stress, heat and the sitting position.  If she did it can slow the heart down to the point of no return.  They both could have had genetic flaws such as congenital heart defects, who knows?

I would avoid this breeder for the simple fact that he docks a hair breed's tails.  Not necessary and obviously didn't know where and how to dock to avoid prolapse.  Not a knowledgable person from which to buy sheep, IMO.  

I would get rid of any sheep bought there and start fresh.  From everything I've seen of the Dorper breed, I've changed my mind quite a bit about their hardiness and abilities to blow their wool in the spring.


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## carolinagirl (Jul 14, 2011)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I would get rid of any sheep bought there and start fresh.  From everything I've seen of the Dorper breed, I've changed my mind quite a bit about their hardiness and abilities to blow their wool in the spring.


I am beginning to see that too.  I guess it's a good thing I couldn't locate dorper lambs this spring and had to settle for Katahdins.  So far, I am really happy with my katahdins.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jul 14, 2011)

I am SO sorry you lost her.   

 I put this to more knowledgeable sheep  people.   Could an adrenaline shot make a difference immediately upon realizing that they are "gone"?


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## Beekissed (Jul 14, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> Beekissed said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was quite impressed with the pure Kats also!  They seem just as meaty~ but with more leg~ than the Dorpers and they have such beautiful wool quality that just _peels_ off in the spring~makes for lovely lambskins when tanned.  They seem much more docile than the Dorpers and St. Croixs also.  Just calm, dependable, eatin' machines!


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## manybirds (Aug 1, 2011)

What feed/ mineral block do u have? do they have any copper in them? it kills sheep


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## kslilbopeep (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi there,

I live in Kansas and have over 100 head of sheep right now.  I raise Katahdins, Dorpers, and crosses of the two.  Our temperatures hit 112 yesterday.  I have Dorper ewes that have the same amount of wool on them that yours have.  I also have other crosses that have WAY more wool then my Dorpers.  I use to think the extreme heat would kill them due to all the wool.  However, I have several that do fine - despite the temperature.  In fact, I had a ewe that had completely shed off, die last month - I THINK due to the heat.  In summary, I know to look at them you just feel sorry for them having that wool coat!  
I have found out the hard way to manipulate my flock as little as possible when it is hot out.  I have lost lambs trying to catch them to take to the market.  Literally, they just fell over dead.  I was SICK about it.
Also.. one other thing.. I ALWAYS dock my lambs tails.  I have never had a prolapse, or anything of the sort, due to close docking.  I actually sort of like that little nub of a tail but have several that have none.  I really believe your ewe just stressed when being sheared.  
Sorry!!!  It is a ROUGH summer!


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## Natisha (Sep 14, 2011)

I am probably the most unknowledgeable person on this board but I will tell you what my vet told me.  Sheep or goats should not be put on their sides due to them being ruminents & are unable to pass gas (burp) from that position. The gas can build up such pressure as to cause respiratory or heart problems.  
I doubt this happened to your sheep because she wasn't down very long but it is something to think about.  I sheer my sheep with them standing.  It takes longer but they are friendly & eat treats the whole time, so I think they rather like it.  I only have 2 sheep so it is doable.
I'm sorry for your loss.

I have a close docked lamb as a pet & it has caused many problems plus she has constant fly irritation.  I will never again buy a mutilated sheep.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 15, 2011)

Long term they shouldn't be on their sides, but short term it won't do any damage.


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