# Inbreeding?



## mikayladawn (Apr 3, 2013)

How close is too close in the family tree? Can a father be bred to daughter? A grandfather? A great grandfather? As far as registered goes, do people want to make sure there is no inbreeding? Does it cause any defects? Oh, and what is the definition of line-breeding?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 3, 2013)

Depends on the person but I personally would NEVER breed anything within 3 generations. And when I look at lines and perdigrees I don't want or favor inbreeding or "linebreeding".


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## michickenwrangler (Apr 3, 2013)

Nearly all modern livestock breeds have been inbred heavily to lock in certain traits.

Got big hams on a pig or rapid weight gain in a bull or long legs on a horse? His daughter has the same? Well breed him to her so that her offspring are 75% of dad instead of just 50%. Very common in horse breeding, especially in establishing foundation. The Arabian stallion *Raffles who was by the Polish stallion Skowronek out of a Skowronek daughter is an example of this.

You can breed whatever you want.

Inbreeding is good at "locking in" traits that would be recessive otherwise: unusual phenotype, color. It also increases the prepotency of a sire or dam line if they are bred to another line. However, undesirable traits can also crop up too. If you cull ruthlessly and breed to avoid undesirable traits, it can be a great way to establish a certain types of characteristics.

Line-breeding is breeding two animals of the same bloodline. Using Skowronek again as an example, some breeders advertise their stallions as having "12 lines to Skowronek" or "16 lines to Skowronek" basically meaning that's how often that stallion would crop up in the pedigree. Say you have an ennobled Boer buck but you know he has some traits that you don't want passed on. Pick 2 of his grandget that have the good traits but none of the bad, breed them. They would be considered "cousins" in a human sense. Some of the same ancestors, but some different ones too. It's good for developing a strain known for certain traits. There is usually enough "fresh blood" to keep some of the worse traits recessive. But some bad traits will crop up too. It's sometimes harder to take that into account because the recessives aren't obvious.

Having been involved with Arabian horses for the last 2 decades, I am partial to line-breeding so long as you are knowledgeable of your bloodlines' strengths and weaknesses. Again, I love my Crabbet Arabians but they tend to be small and slow to mature and not as "typy" as other strains. I could improve that for example, by finding a taller, more refined Crabbet Arab to breed my mares to, or one with some Crabbet ancestors but with Polish or Egyptian strains to increase size and refinement. 

I would breed half-siblings without many misgivings, but not for more than a generation. For father to daughter or mother to son, they would have to be stellar individuals for me to do that.

Know your bloodlines and breed standard.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 3, 2013)

michickenwrangler said:
			
		

> Nearly all modern livestock breeds have been inbred heavily to lock in certain traits.
> 
> Got big hams on a pig or rapid weight gain in a bull or long legs on a horse? His daughter has the same? Well breed him to her so that her offspring are 75% of dad instead of just 50%. Very common in horse breeding, especially in establishing foundation. The Arabian stallion *Raffles who was by the Polish stallion Skowronek out of a Skowronek daughter is an example of this.
> 
> ...


Good answer.

 I read this website for a long time before I signed up.  I used to hate when people would repeat a statement that they had heard or read, "it's line breeding if it works, in-breeding if it doesn't"


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 3, 2013)

mikayladawn said:
			
		

> How close is too close in the family tree? Can a father be bred to daughter? A grandfather? A great grandfather? As far as registered goes, do people want to make sure there is no inbreeding? Does it cause any defects? Oh, and what is the definition of line-breeding?


Most people that ask this question do so because they are in a situation where there animals are closely related.

If you don't have any other options, you do what you have to do. 

If you line breed you are going to magnify positive, and negatives.

If you out-breed you are diversifying genetics.

Most people do some of both.

We have some who we will breed to their grandfather.  But, we have some we will not.


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## SheepGirl (Apr 3, 2013)

I have (accidentally) bred mother to son, maternal half siblings, and full siblings. Right now I have two 2012 ewe lambs out of a twin sibling mating. And I had a 2010 wether out of a mother x son mating. But I sold him at auction with his father/maternal half brother back in August.

You can breed as closely as you want, or outcross as much as you want. Do what YOU want. This year, based on my accidental experience with inbreeding, I am planning on probably breeding my ram to his two daughters born this year. However, who I breed his daughters to depends on if I keep his son as a ram and if I buy a new ram. However if you are intentionally breeding, you really need to know your lines/genetics and your animals, what good traits you have in them and what bad traits. Breed your critters to emphasize the good traits and suppress (or eliminate) the bad traits (which may be recessive or dominant).


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## Queen Mum (Apr 4, 2013)

OK, while we are on the subject,  How do you know what is recessive and what is dominant?

Teets

Eye color

Udder shape

Milk type - fat content

Size

leg length

Ear shape

head size

body shape

etc.

I bred dam to great great grandson.   The result was two fabulous kids.  All the positive genetics came out from the Dam, the grand dam, the grand sire, the sire and on through the whole chain.  But I had no idea what I would get or how I would have chosen.  I just knew I had a buck with lots of good genetics. He looked good and was very well turned out.  And the dam has great genetics.   

I bred another dam to her Grand Uncle and got a two beautiful bucklings.   There again the kids have all the perfect traits.  How would I have known.   I just know I had a dam with great traits and genetics and a buck with great genetics and traits.   

The other two breedings came out lovely, but they were accidental.  Againg the bucks are both nicely turned out.  But there only one of the does is pretty.   The results could have been disasters as well.  

Last year, my does dropped kids that were are small and not very pretty.  However, the resulting does have beautiful udders are parasite resistant and have hooves that almost never need to be trimmed.   The bucklings are very parasite resistant and also never need a hoof trim.


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## SheepGirl (Apr 4, 2013)

Recessive/dominant traits to me would be heritability. The traits with higher heritability would be more dominant IMO, such as terminal traits. The traits with lower heritability would be more recessive, such as maternal traits.

For example, here is a chart showing the heritability of different traits: http://aces.nmsu.edu/sheep/selection_breeding/selection_breeding.html


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## michickenwrangler (Apr 5, 2013)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> OK, while we are on the subject,  How do you know what is recessive and what is dominant?
> 
> Teets
> 
> ...


I'm more familiar with horse genetics than goat. White coloring seems to be dominant.

This is where seeing grandparents can come in handy.

My personal breeding goal is to create a tall, cold hardy dual-purpose animal with good weight gain and good milk production (about 3/4 gal a day). Color is secondary to this. The bucks I have are mostly Boers. Both are "typical" Boer coloring with the white body and colored head. But one is "Bay"--brown and black and the other is actually a purple-brown tone. Purple goats are unusual, so I would like to get more of them. If I can get a good picture of him, I need to post it. Although every time I go out there with a camera, he wanders over and nibbles at the camera, so I'll need a second person to hold him. One of my Saanen does threw a buckling last year--bred to a typical colored Boer-- that had very bold brown-black and white markings that was very striking. I'm a little sorry that we butchered him for meat. But I know the doe has the potential to throw that color again, especially now that I have a brown Boer buck.

My Saanen/Boer doe has 3 teats. She's a first timer so I don't know if the little 3rd one will be functioning or not, but a milking goat should only have 2. Her mom has the best udders on the place so I was a little disappointed that hers have the extra one. So I have to be cautious in breeding her to bucks that have only 2 teats. Which is a bit of a pity because she's got the body type I'm breeding for.

Ears- gopher ears in LaManchas will usually overpower whatever ears the other half is. Because I'm breeding Boers and Swiss type breeds (Alpines and Saanens), a lot of my babies have airplane ears.


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## goatboy1973 (Apr 12, 2013)

I breed a sire back to his best daughters who have the sire's desirable traits. This ensures that the offspring will be 75% the herdsire and lock in characteristics of the buck that I like. If you are in a breed-up program like trying to get a high percent animal without buying a new herdsire at each generation, this is a viable option.


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## babsbag (Apr 12, 2013)

goatboy1973 said:
			
		

> I breed a sire back to his best daughters who have the sire's desirable traits. This ensures that the offspring will be 75% the herdsire and lock in characteristics of the buck that I like. If you are in a breed-up program like trying to get a high percent animal without buying a new herdsire at each generation, this is a viable option.


x2

But I will not breed the does from the sire x daughter breeding back to their sire. One generation is as far as I will line breed.


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## goatboy1973 (Apr 27, 2013)

Yes, I totally agree. This is as close as I will breed (sire to his daughter breeding) and then I find a new herdsire. I only line breed like this with a select few of my best does. A breeder should be very selective when line breeding so as not to lock in bad traits.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 27, 2013)

My rule of thumb is father to daughter but not grandfather.  That's what I was taught and when it did happen here I started to lose vigor and size so I stuck with that thought. But I don't get all upset if it happens.  
I breed for certain traits each year if I can.  
Good feet was first, we had some bad feet
Then long back
Good rears
Shorter leg, I had some super tall sheep.
It may take me years but I enjoy the ride.


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## babsbag (Apr 27, 2013)

I have a spotted boer buck that I am breeding back to his daughters; I want to ingrain the spots. But then if I keep any of those does I need a new buck... this is the part that stinks. 

Spotted ABGA bucks aren't cheap.


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## goatboy1973 (Apr 28, 2013)

I usually start before my herdsire's last breeding season looking for his replacement and I have even bought a yearling herdsire to keep so that I already have my new herdsire already acclimated to the farm. Sometimes you can get a great deal on yearling or weanlings. Sometimes the risk is worth the gain. Maybe you could swap herdsires with a breeder. This is why you start early hunting for a replacement so you can go to the farm where the potential herdsire is to see the health practices and living conditions to gauge if this buck is at or above the level of your standards. Remember the new herdsire will be over 50% of your herd genetics so choose wisely, not just for color or pattern but also for the other stuff like conformation, parasite resistance, feet, disposition etc... Good luck on your search.


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## babsbag (Apr 29, 2013)

goatboy1973 said:
			
		

> I usually start before my herdsire's last breeding season looking for his replacement and I have even bought a yearling herdsire to keep so that I already have my new herdsire already acclimated to the farm. Sometimes you can get a great deal on yearling or weanings. Sometimes the risk is worth the gain. Maybe you could swap herdsires with a breeder. This is why you start early hunting for a replacement so you can go to the farm where the potential herdsire is to see the health practices and living conditions to gauge if this buck is at or above the level of your standards. Remember the new herdsire will be over 50% of your herd genetics so choose wisely, not just for color or pattern but also for the other stuff like conformation, parasite resistance, feet, disposition etc... Good luck on your search.


The buck that I have now is rather small for a boer but his kids have been fabulous. I got a really good deal on him as the breeder was going on a trip and her DH told her to move some kids out so he had less work to do while she was gone. He was only 4 months old so I didn't know at the time that he was going to be a little smaller than I would like.  She has another one that I would like to buy, but I noticed the other day when reading his pedigree that he is acutually related to mine. His sire is a brother to my buck so I am not sure; that is a litte close for my taste, but boy is he pretty. 

I have a year, so it is a good idea to start now, you are right about that.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 29, 2013)

There aren't that many sheep people around here that I don't know, they tend to get their ewes from one guy who runs a whole lot of sheep.  So I try to go as far away as possible to keep the new blood coming in.

But do be careful, we run a closed flock of sheep. I worry everytime I bring anything new on the place. Diseases are easy to transport.


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