# Anemia/Redcell-Fecal UPDATE!!!!!!!



## ThornyRidgeII

I am about to throw up my hands in disgust.. but since I care soo much about my critters especially my little goaties I am not giving up!!!  Anyway this little doe that I have been nursing along now for going on 3.5 to 4 weeks is still hanging on.. I have pumped her full of wormer (3 rounds) and have also included various supplements along the way.. I have been using the redcell now for several days (4-4.5 cc) daily because her gums and eyelids are very pale.. she takes it like a trooper..along with squirts of probios.. not much of an appetite but not totally off feed.. will eat hay just not with gusto.. tonight I spent 66 bux at feed store and came home with new bags of calf manna, goat feed and alfalfa pellets.. mixed her up a concoction of goat feed, calf manna and smashed up alfalfa pellets and b.o.s.s.  - she nibbled at it for a bit but did not finish the feed--just threw in handfuls of stuff with no measuring.. left it in for her to munch on tonight.. unless the chickens discover it.. she drinks well.. licks her loose minerals but is still losing condition.. her spine and hips are  bony now to feel.. I am wondering what is safe and or recommended dose of red cell.. I have been using a little over the common amount I found of 6 cc for 100 lbs..  she is around 45 lbs give or take a few... any other pick me ups.. have done fort. vit. b, nutridrenches, etc.. and of course cookies.. I do find that she loves fresh pine needles.. brought her some tonight and she ate them all.  still kept alone at this time due to her weakened state--plus she makes no fuss about being away from herd.. just kinda at my wits end now


----------



## elevan

This is the dosage that I use for Red Cell when treating anemia:  6 ml / 20-30# every 6-8 hours for 24 hours, then once per week until better.  It can take a couple of months for them to recover from anemia.

On the deworming...did you have a fecal done?  What did it show?  What dewormer(s) are you using and at what dosage?  Have you had a fecal check for coccidia?


----------



## Roll farms

Have you had her checked for Liver Fluke or coccidia?


----------



## ThornyRidgeII

Fecal is up next.. just trying to coordinate getting a sample to my vet (schedule not working at present to meet up with him).. as far as wormer goes I have used ivomec at 1 cc / 20lbs X 3 10 day periods.. I did pick up a bottle of the safeguard drench for goats (have not used it) and somewhat considered other type parasites such as flukes, however, my goats are not on pasture.. I know there is still small possibility of picking up something but thinking it would be small.. minimal area to graze at all in pasture- are fed only hay 2X/day... area that goats are pastured in is not a "wet" area and minimal to no shade so area stays dry.  I have never had a true parasite problem in past so that is why this one stumping me.  Fecal will be up.  Also note goat not showing any diarrhea signs. Perfect goat berries (visually size, shape and color).  Appreciate all feedback.. will keep pluggin along until something breaks for good.  Worst case if I can't hook up fecal with vet in next couple days I do have some other prouducts I could throw at her including sulmet, holistic herbs/wormers, more vitamins/minerals and nutrient drenches, etc... may see if TSC has a bottle of Ivomec Plus in stock.. have never had to use that one.. what is dose and can it be given orally as well?  I know it covers some fluke issues.. would prefer to keep drenching (she is good with that and actually lets me hold the drench syringe and she jsut comes up and takes it.. so as long as that is going smoothily would like to not start poking her a lot


----------



## Roll farms

If it is flukes, the ivo plus needs to be injected at the rate on the box.  It'll hurt, but it'll help.

Coccidia does not always present w/ diarrhea.  Our kids are raised 'dry lot' for the most part and still get it on occasion.

If you can't get the fecal pdq, I'd be tempted to go ahead and start sulmet.  Keep in mind that if it goes on too long, damage done can't be reversed and the goat will never quite catch up.

Hope you figure it out.


----------



## ThornyRidgeII

Thanks for all the input.. kinda like one of those times where you feel like your throwing everything but kitchen sink to see how it works or what works.. she has been a trooper.. heck at times I have caught her laying all content chewing away on her cud.. then other times you can just tell by looking in her eyes that she feels poorly!  we shall see... will try to get a fecal.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

I would:

_for sure consider using another wormer, Something in a completly different family. Safegaurd 3 to 5 days in a row at 3x the label dosage, valbazene 3 days in a row, or synanthic once a week for 3 weeks. I am not as familiar with synanthic as far as dosage goes. 

_ coinsider treating for coccidiosis, lots of people treat for cocci on a regular basis for prevention, and your goat isn't getting any medicated feed, making it even more likely that coccidiosis could be a problem. Sulfa-dimethoxine orally for 5 days. 

_ if your goat is still anemic, I would consider getting a small bottle of iron ferrous for pigs, it isn't expensive and since it is an injectable works faster, plus you don't have to worry about over dosing the other minerals in it like you would with red cell. I often give a 2cc shot of iron in the muscle(back leg) once a week for 4 or 5 weeks, plus I use red cell daily for a week or two. 

_put the goat on an antibiotic

If continues to stay off feed, drench with corn syrup, mollasses and corn oil, 1 part each, 6 to 8 ounces couple times a day for a fulll-size adult goat(100lbs)  Really just a matter 

once back on feed, consider increasing the protein she is getting, because of how much condition she has lost and because of the anemia she will need extra protein to help build red blood cells, and to gain muscle back. You can do this by either feeding a goat grain or adding alfalfa hay to the diet.  Make feed changes slowly.


----------



## Queen Mum

Cane syrup has FAR more iron that red cell or Molasses.   It has 6% by volume compared to Molasses which has 4% by volume and Red Cell has 1% by volume.  It is innocuous and harmless.  You can buy it at the grocery store for $3.00 a bottle.  

When I have an anemic goat I give them about 1/4 cup of the stuff mixed in warm water once a day.  When her gums pink up, stop giving it to her.


----------



## cmjust0

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> Cane syrup has FAR more iron that red cell or Molasses.   It has 6% by volume compared to Molasses which has 4% by volume and Red Cell has 1% by volume.  It is innocuous and harmless.  You can buy it at the grocery store for $3.00 a bottle.
> 
> When I have an anemic goat I give them about 1/4 cup of the stuff mixed in warm water once a day.  When her gums pink up, stop giving it to her.


Iron is measured by _weight_, as in kilograms, grams, milligrams, etc. -- not by volume.  Each fluid ounce (vol) of Red Cell contains 300mg (weight) of iron.  I did the math according to the label, and it turns out that 1fl oz of Red Cell weighs 31,893.2mg, 300 of which is iron.  So, by weight -- as iron _must_ be measured -- Red Cell is 0.94% iron.  A hair less than 1%.

What I found about blackstrap molasses is that each 2tbsp weighs 13.67g and contains 2.39mg of iron.  That's 13,670mg of blackstrap containing 2.39mg of iron.  By weight, that's 0.0175%, roughly.  Not quite two one hundredths of a percent.  Obviously, 2/100ths vs 94/100ths puts it faaaaaaaar lower in iron than Red Cell..

Cane syrup?...not sure exactly what's meant by 'cane syrup' but my understanding of syrup/molasses in general is that blackstrap is the most vitamin and mineral dense of all.  The lighter they are, the more sugary and less nutrionally dense they are.  Perhaps you know of some other type I'm not aware of, but like I said...as syrup goes, I'm pretty sure blackstrap is the most nutritionally valuable.

Something else to consider is that, when you read up on what *kind* of iron is in each, I think what you'll find is that the iron in blackstrap isn't actually all that bioavailable, whereas the iron in Red Cell is _chelated iron_ -- a very, very bioavailable form.


----------



## Queen Mum

Volume is the liquid measure of the dose, ie, number of cc's.  The weight of the iron contained there in is where the percentage figures come from.  The three liquids (by coincidence) are fairly equal in liquid weight.  But also have equal weights of iron contained therein.  

Red Cell has 150 mg iron per tablespoon.   (14 cc)  >1% by volume

Cane syrup  (Steens) has 1260 milligrams per tablespoon. (14 cc)   6% by volume

Molasses has 2% iron by volume, 2% Calcium by volume and 2% Magnesium by volume  (It has roughly 300 mg. iron per tablespoon.)

Reading up on cane syrup it is bioavailable, and while not nutritionally "dense" as you say, it is easily absorbed.  The iron in Red cell is partially derived from it.  In other words, for a quick source of iron, Cane syrup is a plus.  

You can supplement with Red cell because it has lots of other things (vitamins, minerals, etcetera,) but in fact, if your goal is to give iron and give it fast, I would go with cane syrup as a first line of defence and follow up with the red cell on a daily basis.   One reason for giving the iron in Cane syrup is that it is partially bound to the sugar and is easily digested and quickly absorbed.  Second, you can give smaller quantities and avoid the possible diarhea.   Third, it's a cheap source of iron.


----------



## ThornyRidgeII

Fecal is getting done tomorrow.. I followed that damn goat around the barn all evening with a zip lock baggie waiting for a poop!!  finally just as I was about to give up she popped a squat and peed which meant  please please please poop!  and well I got a few pellets clumped together .. still pelleted but all stuck to gether  in a couple of pellet balls..should be enough to check but obviously not a lot of poop.. goat amazingly seemed a bit perkier ( if that is a word) tonight and was perkier (yet again a word) eating tonight.. still not showing real interest in goat grain (sweet kind) but still wanting cookies and loose minerals.. was eating hay again tonight while loose in barn and then in her pen.. hoping to find out what fecal will show.. actually held off tonight doing anything more than a squirt of probios and 4 cc of red cell.  did pick up some ivomec plus just in case and have the safeguard drench for goats now too.. I think my valbazen is expired.. keeping fingers crossed..


----------



## Queen Mum

ThornyRidgeII said:
			
		

> Fecal is getting done tomorrow.. I followed that damn goat around the barn all evening with a zip lock baggie waiting for a poop!!  finally just as I was about to give up she popped a squat and peed which meant  please please please poop!  and well I got a few pellets clumped together .. still pelleted but all stuck to gether  in a couple of pellet balls..should be enough to check but obviously not a lot of poop.. goat amazingly seemed a bit perkier ( if that is a word) tonight and was perkier (yet again a word) eating tonight.. still not showing real interest in goat grain (sweet kind) but still wanting cookies and loose minerals.. was eating hay again tonight while loose in barn and then in her pen.. hoping to find out what fecal will show.. actually held off tonight doing anything more than a squirt of probios and 4 cc of red cell.  did pick up some ivomec plus just in case and have the safeguard drench for goats now too.. I think my valbazen is expired.. keeping fingers crossed..


That made me laugh.  I could see you standing behind your goat, waiting patiently holding a baggie up to her bottom...  If she is PG, I think valbazen is contraindicated.   Anyone?


----------



## elevan

You know that if the fecal is gonna be more than an hour old that you need to put it into the fridge right?

If she is pregnant you do NOT want to give Valbazen.


----------



## ThornyRidgeII

nope not pregnant and yes poop went right into fridge.. these things I know for sure.


----------



## cmjust0

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> Volume is the liquid measure of the dose, ie, number of cc's.  The weight of the iron contained there in is where the percentage figures come from.


The more times I read that, the less sense it makes in my head.  It would seem that I'm supposed to understand the 2nd sentence because of the way it relates to the first, but the two don't seem to actually relate at all.  Yes, you could describe volumetric measurements as a measure of liquid, as that's how liquid (and gas, and empty space, etc) is measured..  But then you say that the weight of the iron is where the percentage figure comes from...which, once again, mixes weight measurements and volume measurements..  

Can you please show us the formula you're using?  I ask because I don't believe it's possible to get to '>1% by volume' simply using 150mg of iron and 14cc of Red Cell as your only two inputs because, as I mentioned before, you're putting weight measurements and volumetric measurements together and it just doesn't work that way.  _Math_ doesn't work that way....not without some conversions, which require more inputs.  Perhaps if I could see your formula, it would make sense..

Generally speaking, I'm pretty good at figuring out percentages for dosing, etc etc etc..  If not for the fact that I've helped many, many people on this very forum figure out dosages by weight, volume, and combinations thereof, I suppose one could make the argument that I must simply be a dolt for not understanding without having you 'show your work' (as my 4th grade math teacher put it.. ), but there are any number of posts where I've demonstrated the ability to do *this kind* of math.  

I believe there are good reasons why I'm not "getting" this, though..  For instance...



> The three liquids (by coincidence) are fairly equal in liquid weight.  But also have equal weights of iron contained therein.


...ok, so let's say that's true, and that they have equal overall weights and equal amounts of iron per unit by weight...  Mathematically speaking, that makes them all the same potency.  Continuing...



> Red Cell has 150 mg iron per tablespoon.   (14 cc)  >1% by volume
> 
> Cane syrup  (Steens) has 1260 milligrams per tablespoon. (14 cc)   6% by volume


...so how can they be the same weight and contain equal weights of iron, yet 'Steens' supposedly has like about 8x the iron by weight?  See what I'm saying?...this just isn't making a lot of sense.



> Molasses has 2% iron by volume, 2% Calcium by volume and 2% Magnesium by volume  (It has roughly 300 mg. iron per tablespoon.)


Not according to what I read, which was a nutritional information label for blackstrap molasses..  What I've read indicates that it has **1.195mg** of iron per tablespoon (as stated in my previous post, which I said was 2.39mg/2tbsp)..  Can you please point us to some reference where you're getting **300mg/tbsp?!??***  

It's quite a difference, obviously..



> Reading up on cane syrup it is bioavailable, and while not nutritionally "dense" as you say, it is easily absorbed.  The iron in Red cell is partially derived from it.  In other words, for a quick source of iron, Cane syrup is a plus.


Again, can you please provide links or some type of reference to what you've read, so that we may read it for ourselves?  Because, frankly, I'm having a *really* hard time believing that something as sugary as cane syrup could possibly contain **1.26 GRAMS** of iron in a tablespoon...and still be sugary.    And hey, maybe it does, but I'm really doubting it and would very much like to see some type of reference because if it's true, I'll use it..



> You can supplement with Red cell because it has lots of other things (vitamins, minerals, etcetera,) but in fact, if your goal is to give iron and give it fast, I would go with cane syrup as a first line of defence and follow up with the red cell on a daily basis.   One reason for giving the iron in Cane syrup is that it is partially bound to the sugar and is easily digested and quickly absorbed.  Second, you can give smaller quantities and avoid the possible diarhea.   Third, it's a cheap source of iron.


Not to belabor the point, but again...what are you reading that's telling you it's bound to sugar, easily digested, etc..?  

And please bear in mind that I don't think this is important simply because I think you're wrong -- I think it's important because people might actually believe it, elect to give cane syrup instead of Red Cell as a "first line of defense", and possibly end up with a goat dead from anemia _because the math was incorrect_.  

Moreover, I took the time _show my work_ proving that blackstrap molasses was *far* lower in iron than Red Cell -- effectively proving your formula wrong, so far as I can tell, and perhaps saving some people from following errant advice -- and you simply re-posted "molasses has 2% iron by volume" as a point-blank fact with zero indication of how you arrived at that belief.  I think it's only fair that since I went to the trouble of posting the work I did to substantiate my position, you should consider doing the same.


----------



## cmjust0

I just did some more research on 'Steens', which is apparently a type of 'golden syrup'..  Different process from any grade of molasses, as it involves the use of acid somehow or another, instead of boiling.  In any case, I've thus far found several nutritional info tags for several different brands of golden syrup, and they all say the same thing in regard to the %DV of iron:  *0%*

I actually can't find _any_ reference to any number of mg/ml (or tsp, or tbsp, or anything else) to indicate that there's _any_ iron in golden syrup, whatsoever.


----------



## ThornyRidgeII

so fecal sample went out to vet.. overload of barberpole worms.. relief in a sense knowing with patience and time this can be tackled and that I was not looking at something much much worse  yes I do realize this is serious but was afraid it could be some internal issue that would not have given us an answer.. amazingly she is apparently responding to the red cell.. again for second night she is much spunkier and actively seeking out food (hay).  So vet gave me a tube of levasole (levamisole) to treat her with.. this is a tube of pink gel that is 100mg levamisole per 1 cc per 100 lbs... she is right around 50 so it was a real chore trying to squeeze out 1/2 cc into a syringe to drench with.. anyway was able to get a dose of it in to her tonight.. will see how this goes.. forgot to ask how soon to reworm her again with this as follow up.. will check on that unless someone has advice.. gave her another 4 cc of red cell.. will probably keep that up for another couple days and see how she is doing.. but was impressed with alertness and actual look in her eyes looks better.. and more interest in eating hay.  Did another eyelid check on the herd and didn't find any that werent at least medium pink in color.. well at least I got some answers and she at least at this point is responding in some way.  will keep all posted.


----------



## redtailgal

I'm glad to hear that you've got it figured out.  It makes things less worrisome to know what you are dealing with, doesnt it?

I will look forward to your updates as she improves!


----------



## Queen Mum

Good to hear that you got the fecals done and now you have an answer.  That will be the key to getting the job done, rather than shooting in the dark.    You can guess until the cows come home but in reality, the guess can be wrong or right, but when you have a lab result it gives you a direct means of attack.


----------



## elevan

Glad to hear you have some answers.  Give your vet a call back about the follow up treatment as he'll be the most clued in to what is best for your region.


----------



## autumnprairie

I am so glad that you found the cause and have a clear line of treatment.


----------



## kstaven

Good to hear you have a sense of direction now.


----------

