# help a newbie keep quads alive?



## juniemoon (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi, I brought home 2 pregnant nigerian dwarves 5 days ago--first goats we've had.  

I was told they were due the last week in april--but one gave birth to 4 live babies yesterday morning after laboring all night.  A month early?  Or the people I bought them from have dates confused? 

There are two tiny goats and two larger ones.  I was present at the birth.  All were up and walking pretty quickly after birth, but very clumsy like still--that's normal, right?

She licked them clean but wouldn't let them nurse (kept gently flicking them off with her hoof and/or lying down to go to sleep.   I milked her colostrum and syringe fed after about an hour or two.  

So far, she seems to only let them nurse just for a moment before flicking them off or laying down.  

I brought them inside last night (20 degrees here) and fed them all about 1.5-2 oz of organic vitamin d milk mixed with what more goat milk I could get from mom.  From a syringe (hard to do and they hated it) to avoid nipple confusion. 

This morning I brought them back to the barn and she is letting them nurse for a few moments at a time.  It is painful to watch cause it takes them 5 minutes to find the teat and then 5 seconds of nursing or less before they get flicked off...but she is acting like she knows they are hers and licking them.   

How much milk do they need and how many times a day?  Or do I just let them try to get it from mom? How do I know if they are getting enough?  How long do they need to suck on mama to get a meal?  

Thanks so much in advance for any bit of advice you might throw my way--I am totally new to goats (to any farm animals) and am feeling frantic about what to do.


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## lilhill (Mar 28, 2011)

The doe will allow the babies to nurse several times a day, a small amount each time.  If you are concerned that one or two are not getting enough, then you could supplement them with a bottle, but personally, I would leave them on mom and let her do her thing.


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## 4hmama (Mar 28, 2011)

Letting them nurse is going to encourage milk production.  If she is a first freshener, she is learning what kids are all about also.  Some of my FF's lay down and don't understand that they are supposed to be nursing their babies.  Stick with it and as soon as the babies latch on a time or two...the mama usually gets the idea.  You could supplement quads, although some can raise quads without supplementing.  I would give a few oz. to each at a time...don't overfill them because you want them to nurse.  Put mama in a stall (if possible) and put a heat lamp on the babies in with her.  Don't forget food and water (up high enough to keep babies out of) and hay.  You may want to use a scale and weigh them daily and make sure everyone is gaining weight.  

Quads are a pain, sometimes - but it WILL be okay...Good Luck!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

*WELCOME TO BYH!!!*

Quads!!! WOW!!  Thats great congrats.  Seems like everything is going okay.  With exception of suckling.  You are gonna wanna make sure they all get enough colostrum from Momma...it will last about 3 days tops.  They should get a couple ounces at a time at least.  And I know its hard to tell when then are getting kicked off quickly.  

If you feel they are not getting enough.  You may wanna milk her and bottle feed. Especially if there are smaller or weaker ones not getting enough. Its really important they get the colostrum because it has all the nutrients for thier bellies and all the antibodies for their immune.  

Quads is alot for her to work with...so you may have to consider the bottle for a couple of them.  The smaller or weaker ones that are finding suckling tough or if shes just not liking this Momma stuff.  

They can get weak fast if not getting proper nutrients. So be watchill of them.  I always perfer them to stay with Mom.  But if Moms not doing it you gotta milk her and bottle feed.  Especially now..cuz they need the colostrum.  She may not be able to handle four...and thats not umcommon...four is alot when you only have two teats.  

Good luck with them...babies are exciting and worrisome at the same time!!!  Sometimes I wanna pull my hair out!!  

Just a note...be careful drenching the milk...you dont want any going into the lungs.  So if your unfamilar with aspiration on goats..you may wanna stick with the bottle.  I totally understand your thought process about the bottle nipples...but it sounds like you may have to do some bottle feeding to me.   

Hope it works out for you guys!!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

Another note...you are much better off putting a heat lamp and all of them in a stahl with Momma than bringing them back and forth from inside to outside.  IMO.

They need to stay with her so her instincts kick in and they bond.  Staying together also helps Mom accept them as her own.  I  recomend milking her while is colostrum is flowing.  Important for them to get it.  And if you can I would freeze some for your other pregnant doe..incase there is an issue with suckling etc.  with her birthing. 

Talk about being thrown into a barnyard quickly huh!!!  With quads to boot!! EEEE Boy!!! You'll do fine!

Dont hestitate to ask questions here at all...nothing is silly or crazy...something that may seem silly to you could be important.  There are alot great people here willing to help!!!

I missed something in your post.  You wanna make sure they each get about 10oz of colostrum in them in the first 24 hours.  Thats a good start!!!  Ive included a site that might help and worth reviewing.  Best of luck!!

http://www.motesclearcreekfarms.com/asp/articles/Care-Bottle-Feeding-Newborns.asp


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## juniemoon (Mar 28, 2011)

ok, thank you all for your help so far!  

um, yeah it is really hard to tell if they are getting enough milk.  and I feel like, ok, they are not human babies, but sheesh, they sure are getting my hormones all in a tizzy worrying over their health.  

and, yes, I am afraid they will aspirate the milk from the syringe--I went with it though cause the sheep farmer  my mom called for me suggested it...I hope I didn't hurt them last night!  

if necessary, do I bottle feed them all a little or just pick one or two (the little ones?) and bottle exclusively for them?  and, how do I know when it is necessary?  will one bottle feeding ruin the chances they will nurse normally?  a crap shoot?  I'm home full time with my children but I would really like to see them raised with the mama--if possible.  

they are in a stall with mom--I currently have a space heater out there on an inaccessible shelf--which still seems super dangerous with all that hay--though it is a new model with a fan type thing--no glowing embers.  besides with the heater so high up and outside the stall (so nobody knocks it over) I don't think it is enough heat for them.  I can I get a heat lamp at tractor supply you think?  
but is that a fire hazard too?  the last thing I want is to set everybody on fire ..should I put mama and babies in my bathroom in the house for a few days?  eek, my husband would have a palpitation when he gets back from his business trip though.  

ok, off to check on the goats.  

all you experienced goat people have my awe.  you all rock.  thanks for the advice.  if you have any other ideas, please pass them along..


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 28, 2011)

I have a heat lamp out with my babies - the brooder kind that you use for baby chicks.  It's got a squeeze clamp and we mount it up overhead on a 2x4 where it can't be reached.  Then DH puts a screw in on each side of the 2x4 just in case it were to slip - the screw would catch.  As an extra safety precaustion we also have a chain attached with a clamp, so that if it were to somehow slip AND get past the screw (not likely) the chain would allow it to dangle rather than fall to the ground.


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## juniemoon (Mar 28, 2011)

emmett's farm--great website for newborn goat advice.  thx so much!  it said 7 seconds is a normal amount of time for them to nurse!    

oops!  so maybe they are getting enough. 

I went in an hour ago and put some fresh browse on top of something so the goat would have to stand to eat eat, and the babies all were nursing for at least a few seconds each!  and they all seem pretty peppy.  one was even jumping on another one, trying to play.  

thank you guys so much for your help.


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## juniemoon (Mar 28, 2011)

ooh our7wonders I love your setup, you could market the idea.  I will copy you shamelessly.  

y'all are helping me so much.  thanks again.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

juniemoon said:
			
		

> emmett's farm--great website for newborn goat advice.  thx so much!  it said 7 seconds is a normal amount of time for them to nurse!
> 
> oops!  so maybe they are getting enough.
> 
> ...


  Happy to hear!!! She will do great then!!! Great idea with the feed to get her up!!!  Thats how you do it!! Gotta outsmart the goat.  Can be a great task to take on at times!! But I think you got the hang of it!!  Good for you!!!


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## jodief100 (Mar 28, 2011)

You should be able to pick up the babies and feel thier tummies.  If they feel ncie and round they are getting enough.  If they seem sunken in then they are not.  Another way to tell is if they are screeming.  A hungry baby will almost always make some noise.

Weigh them every day and make sure they are gaining weight.  

It sounds like everything is normal.  

I suggest a heat lamp as opposed to a space heater.  It is dangerous.  I use the work lights like you get at Lowes mounted to the wall.  Others use brooder lamps or other "light bulb" type heaters.  What ever you use needs to be secured well above the hay with at least two secure points.  If one fails you do not want it to fall in the hay.


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## juniemoon (Mar 28, 2011)

They are still nursing a bit.  Their bellies don't all seem round though. The two small ones are rounded but the bigger ones are sorta sunken.  Good amount of energy though.  I am gonna give it a few hours before I supplement and make sure it is needed.  

I finally thought to check gender--3 bucks and 1 doe.  Two are all white, one is black with a white spot on his head, and one is white with some brown and black spots on his legs.  All so precious.  I hope they make it!

Thanks again for all the support.


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## haviris (Mar 28, 2011)

Can't wait to see pics! For future reference I would not feed them w/ a syringe, I would use a bottle, and don't worry about nipple confusion, that's not generally a problem. Most my kids, even dam raised, get their first meal from a bottle, if they are weak and/or it's really cold they may get their first several days worth from a bottle, never had one refuse it's mom. 

When my kids are first born moms generally let them nurse til they are full, later on they may limit them, but not at first. I'd keep a close eye on them and make sure they are nursing and active, and gaining weight. If you want you can pull one or two and put them on a bottle, or you can suppliment them w/ a bottle (this is one area where feeding them their first meal from a bottle helps), some will take right to it, some are more stubborn. In the past I have done a combo of dam raising and bottle feeding, this gave me more options, the only time I've HAD to suppliment they took to it like ducks to water and I'd give them one 20oz bottle each a day (they were boers). 

Personally if I have any doubts I put kids on bottles, but for others that is a last resort, so it's up to what you are comfortable with.


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## PattySh (Mar 28, 2011)

Congrats on your new quads. I hope all 4 continue to do well!!


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## juniemoon (Mar 30, 2011)

They are all nursing well now!  The mama's instincts seem to have kicked in.  I opened her birthing stall up so she could go browse fresh pasture--she walked out of it and called the kids, and when they wouldn't come, she just went back into the stall with them.  So I keep supplementing the hay and grain she gets with big bowls of handpicked browse--the stuff she usually likes to munch on--and she seems to like this ok.  

My biggest concern is if the kids are getting enough milk.  They are all sort of munching on hay a bit which freaks me out--is that normal?  Sign of hunger?  They are four days old now.  The bellies don't seem round enough.   

I have tried to supplement with organic cow's milk but not a bit of luck.  Except that the mama came and tried to get some and did get a small suck of it before I pulled it away (she was a bottle baby I am told).  She was irritated when I wouldn't let her have it (it's waaay too rich for her right?).  But the babies won't take it.  They will sniff the nipple and even lick the drop at the tip but won't take the nipple.  

So far I have tried pritchard nipple with a tiny little tip (to help the get it because they have tiny jaws) and a nuk orthodontic human baby nipple with the hole slightly enlarged.  Am I missing something with this?  Or is it just a matter of waiting till they get bigger and hungrier?  

My human kids stole the batteries from my camera lol but I will get pics up soon.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 30, 2011)

It's normal for them to be nibbling hay already.

I've heard of some folks supplementing dam raised kids with a bottle, but I feel like for the most part they're mutually exclusive so it's not at all surprising they aren't interested in the bottle.  It's an either or sort of deal.

Last year we had an older doe freshen with some pretty severe udder congestion and the fact that her kid wasn't getting enough to eat was pretty obvious simply because he was acting like he was hungry.


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