# Bad fight between Bucks. UPDATE



## terrilhb (Nov 4, 2011)

I have 2 bucks. They are brothers. And will be 2 yrs. old in Feb. They have always gotten along. They play and do their thing. That is until this morning.  I look outside and they are head butting each other. So I am like ok all is good. I walk away and go back out a few minutes later. I heard them yelling. And oh my. My smaller buck is covered in blood. And it literally looks like they are trying to kill each other.  So I call their names and they keep it up. I got the spray bottle and spray them. Nothing they keep going. 1 tries to run away and the other one goes after the other one.  So I got the water hose. Sprayed them down till they were soaked. Still fighting. So I yell for my daughter. She gets grain and hay. They stop for a sec and than go right back after each other.  She gets bread and they stop. So I am trying to look at my small buck and check him out. (this is the one who likes me to much). But while I am checking him his brother goes after him again and it starts all over again.  We finally get the small buck Charlie out. And than they start through the fence.  So we take the girls from their pen and put them in the shed. And get the Charlie into their pen.  They all finally calm down. I checked Charlie over. Some tears on his ear, neck(nut punctured but cut. And cuts on his nose and side. I cleaned them up and put BluKote on him. Now the bucks are calling each other from their pens. Will they stop? What do I do? Do I need to get rid of one? Or will they be ok? They have always gotten along so I don't understand why this is happening. Is this normal?


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## ksalvagno (Nov 4, 2011)

Are they intact? Do they have horns?


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## terrilhb (Nov 4, 2011)

Both.


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## 20kidsonhill (Nov 4, 2011)

Welcome to goats and to farming.   I am thinking they will work it out, but that is just a guess on my part.

I know it is very frustrating, My husband and I have worked with several species of livestock and we always say that goats can be so mean to each other.  

If it was here, we would give it a chance, but if it kept up we would build another pen and seperate them.  

Perhaps there is a doe in heat?  Maybe the smaller buck isn't feeling well and the other buck is taking advantage of it?  I have seen that happen more than onse.


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## terrilhb (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks so much. I really want it to work out. They have always gotten along. I will admit I am learning trial by error. The boys were our 1st goats. The woman we got them from told us nothing about goats. Than we got a doe. Than I found this site. I read and read. But there is noone around me with goats. So I do not have a mentor. Except for this site and you all. I just don't want them to kill each other. I am keeping them seperated until my husband gets home. They listen to him better. He is a retired Drill Sgt.  Thanks for the quick responses.


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## 20kidsonhill (Nov 4, 2011)

Yesterday I noticed a huddle of 4 or 5 does, and when I went to check on it closer, They were beating up on one doe.  I had a few not so nice words to say.  They are so mean to each other.  

I think what happened is, I put two groups of does together totalling 20 does all together, She is a big girl and a more dominant doe, and she was fighting a lot the first couple days, looks like she got a pretty good working over and a headache from it, and now some of the other does that normally are below her in the ranking are getting revenge on her. The does that are above her in ranking don't seem to be paying her any attention. 

If I pull her out and let her get better, she will just get another beating when I go to put her back.  So I a am leaving her in there unless she goes off feed.


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## 20kidsonhill (Nov 4, 2011)

Not saying that I wouldn't have pulled out your smaller buck before he was enjured badly.  It is possible for a stronger buck to kill a weaker buck or doe.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 4, 2011)

Bucks will beat each other up pretty bad sometimes.  Once the hormones get going and the fight gets started the adrenaline runs and they have a hard time cooling off.   You did good by separating them for a while.   If the injuries are fairly minor and they are matched for size, let things cool off and try putting them back together.   That may be the end of it.  If they get really serious right off the bat, you are going to have to separate them for a while till they get back on track.    

Most bucks will just spar and one will back off.  But sometimes they will fight it out until the match is determined by a winner and that is a problem if they are evenly matched.  It can get bloody if they are both dominant personalities and it sounds like you have two dominant personalities.  In that case, you will have to train them to not fight.  That means your husband and/or you will have to throw both of them over and over till they both back off the minute you step into the fray.  THAT will stop ANY future fights and return them to lower status where they will just spar after that.   It's doable, it's difficult and frustrating.  It's worth the effort!


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## Roll farms (Nov 4, 2011)

I just put Saturday and Choas back together since we're done breeding for the year....they got along fine last year.
They haven't stopped pushing eachother around, even to eat, since yesterday.  Poor Bullitt is stuck in the middle and trying to stay out of their way.  
Both are dehorned so I'm not really 'worried' (although they could still hurt eachother, it's not as bloody or dangerous w/out horns).


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## terrilhb (Nov 4, 2011)

I am so lost with goats it is not funny. The woman we bought our bucks from told us nothing about them. Then we got does. Boy are we learning the hard way. I can not find a mentor that is consitant. I feel like the more I am told the further I am being set back. I don't know how to proceed. I am about ready to give up because when I ask questions (not from here) I get so much information and not actual advice. I am told do this, do that, and I am doing everything wrong. According to one woman I am doing everything wrong. She told me my bucks and does should not have horns, never have 2 bucks. I need to feed them all natural food I grow myself. Do not feed them loose minerals because of where I live in the south. I need at least 3 bloodlines in my does. I need to feed them dried kelp, and I should look into sharing a buck with someone.  I really don't know what to do anymore. Maybe just give up on my future plans of dairy goats. I am sorry I am just venting and don't know where or who to turn to.


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## ThornyRidgeII (Nov 4, 2011)

nahhhhh.. just take a deep breath and relax.. we have all been there..  and know even those of us that have had goats for many years ( 10 years for myself) there is always lots of learning and new things you would never think could happen will happen.. it is all part of the fun an enjoyment that you will quickly learn to turn your goat related stress into!!!  it is a lot to take in.. been there done that.. but seriously relax and start with the basics.. places such as this are a wealth of information.. and you will find eventually what works for one person/goat enthusiast will not work for you.. lots of trial and error.. and yes lots of errors.. but know you have support in the goat community from us crazy goat folks.. the worst thing you can do is beat yourself up over things and of course not asking questions.. ask away and I advise starting a little resource guide for yourself loaded with information you will definately find helpful in the future..

in terms of some of your stressors.. to say goats should never have horns.. well.. if they weren't supposed to have them then they would all naturally be born polled (hornless).. over the course of time before we really domesticated them to the big babies we have now, they needed their horns.. currently there are many differing opinions with horns.. my personal preference is hornless. my herd has either been disbudded at a very young age to kill the horn growth or I have polled genes in my herd.  for me it is a safety issue for them and for me.. however, there are many folks with horned goats that just take some extra precautions and have no problems.. it can be done.just be careful and be prepared for a freak accidents!  as far as never having more than 1 buck.. well I have 4!!!  Once you get past the smell I love my boys!  I actually prefer them to some of the nasty does I have!  Unfortunately the odor goes with the territory.. along with some aggressive shoving and bumping and well getting peed on !  All natural food that you grow yourself?  hmmm.. someone must have lots of time, money and perfect conditions!  I buy local hay (grass/clover/alfalfa blends) from my local farmers and a locally mixed goat grain .. I supplement with animal crackers because they are so terribly spoiled!  Loose minerals are out here at all times.. the goats eat what they want/need and well waste a lot too.. one of my wethers has determined he don't like to lick after other goats.. so he purposely drags his snout across the minerals knocking much out of the pipe feeder I use to get "fresh" for himself!  Sharing goats with someone else seems like a big hassle to me.. also could bring in problems of disease and disagreements/problems with the other owners.. I say if you have the space get what you need/want and handle business yourself!  as far as the "bucky behavior " that is occurring.. it is all normal.. when in rut.. and having does in heat you will see the dark side of multiple bucks.. thankfully my boys are nigerian dwarf but man do they get in some pot shots at each other and times I am shocked that one has not got hurt.. and occasionally if I am not paying attention when taking in water buckets I get secondarily rammed in the legs.. in my opinion again it all goes with the territory and will become easier for you the longer you are in it.. 

take comfort.. you will soon love goats as much as the rest of us nuts!!


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## Roll farms (Nov 4, 2011)

Don't give up!

There really isn't a right way to feed goats - each of us do what works best in our situation.  
KStaven has a herd of horned dairy goats.
Offer your goats minerals....if they eat 'em, they probably need 'em.  
It probably wouldn't hurt to ask if you have a county extension agent, what minerals might be lacking in your area.
I give my goats dried kelp - partly FOR THE MINERAL CONTENT....so if they don't need mineral, why's she giving it to hers?
You can have 1 bloodline of does IF YOU WANT TO.  And have as many bucks as you do or don't want - BUT - if your smaller one keeps being a PITA, I'd recommend moving him on where he can be a lone buck.
We've kept up to 5 bucks together at a time.

We're all still learning, like TRII said in their post.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 4, 2011)

It's way simpler than you think.  You need to "feed" your goats one thing - hay - if they can't get enough natural food from their environment.   Then you "can" give them some grain.   Bucks don't "need" grain because they would otherwise not eat it in the wild.   But it can supplement their diet to keep them healthy if the fodder that naturally grows in your area doesn't have the nutrients the otherwise need.  Because People got involved with Goats and moved them out of their NORMAL ancient environment,   Minerals are needed as a supplement for their body and muscle growth.  

Does don't "need" grain either, but you "can" give it to them if you want to supplement their diet.  And if you are milking them, it's easier to get them to cooperate on the milk stand if you give them grain in their cup.  

Bucks are teenagers on hormone overload.  They fight like a bunch of out of control teenagers.  They get overloaded like a bunch of football players in a fight and sometimes you have to break them up and put them in time out.   The eventually grow up.  They need to be taught manners.  The older bucks in a BIG herd keep the younger bucks under safe control.

Does are somewhat the same.  They are more like a bunch of catty teenage girls.    There's always one who is kind of mousy and quiet who gets kicked around and one who is bossy and brassy who does the kicking.  They, too, need to be taught some manners.  An older doe in a BIG herd (queen) usually manages it and keeps the herd under safe control.

Pretty simple really.


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## terrilhb (Nov 4, 2011)

Thank you all. I love my goats. But today after my conversation with this person I was seriously doubting myself. I read and read. But she really made me question myself. I just talked to someone that said I can sand their horns down so they are not so pointy and dangerous. Not alot just a little. I my self respect the horns. We purposely left the horn on so they have more ways to protect themselves. I am so relieved that I am obviously not wrong. I love my bucks. Very much. (They are spoiled rotten.) Thank you all so much. They are all staying where they belong. Here with me and I know they are happy.  I was also told by her that I need to breed my 2 oldest does to one of my bucks. I am not comfortable with this. 1 doe just had a baby on July 3rd. And the other is only 10 months old. The 10 month old is just a inch smaller than the kid born in July. She is boer and nubian. I do not want to do this and will not. I think it is too soon for the mother that just gave birth and the other is to small and young.


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## zzGypsy (Nov 4, 2011)

sounds to me like too many chiefs...
maybe you need *fewer* people to talk to.. 

everyone has opinions, and not everyone is right, just because they're certain.  or present themselves that way.  and FWIW, anyone who says you can *ONLY* feed goats what you grow yourself has a bit of an extreme agenda... and I'm pretty sure there are 100s of thousands of goats to prove that point wrong.  that pretty much goes for anyone who says there's ONLY one way to do anything.   don't let the self-important rattle you.  

there are *many* correct ways to raise goats, depending on your goals, the breed, your circumstances, your facilities, your finances... some things generally work, and some things generally fail, but there are relatively few absolute rules.

you need a good goat book as a reference - maybe the storey's guide for goats.

you need one or MAYBE two people you can talk with - but choose people with similar goals and goats - there's a lot of confusion if you're getting advice from people with very different approaches or purposes.

you need a good vet you can check information with over the phone, as well as in person.  ask lots of questions - vets are generally very happy to teach you so they have to make fewer house calls (mostly they're very busy folks and will help you learn, and help over the phone, if you have a good working relationship with them.)

there are several good posts above with basic guidelines.  one of the things you will want to think about is how to make this work with less stress...

at the risk of being one more Chief... here's our simple approach. don't take this as a mandate for what you should do, but read it to see if it fits with your goals and goats, and if it does, use those ideas.  if it doesn't, that's cool too... there ARE lots of ways to do this.

on staying low stress: keeping 2 bucks is more stress than keeping one.  they will sometimes scrap, especially in rutting season.  it's their nature. we keep 2 bucks - and when it's not breeding season they get on fairly well. but in rut, they fight.  one buck goes in with the girls, the other is separated.  they don't generally fight through the fence, but if they did, we'd move one further away.  after all the girls are bred and the breeder buck is done acting Studly, he goes back in the buck pen.  however, keeping only one buck would be simpler, and less stressful, for me, and for the bucks.  since you're new, you might consider the less stressful path while you learn.

disbudded goats are less stressful to manage than goats with horns.  we keep our bucks with horns (because we like them) but disbud the girls (easier on the milk stand.)  horns do make things more complicated, and the risks are higher if they fight.  our neighbors have had goat kids gored - can't happen if your goats are all disbudded.  and since they're not living in the wilds where they have to defend themselves (we have LGDs for that) de-horned is fine.  consider what will be easiest for you to manage.

goats in general are pretty good about picking what to eat if they have options.  we keep minerals out, and a white salt block, and baking soda, they eat what they need.  and they do waste some. oh well.  until I'm psychic about knowing *exactly* what they need and *exactly* when they need it, I let them pick. make it easy on yourself.  unless your *VET* says "don't keep minerals out in our region" and can give you a reaons why, I don't know how this would be a problem.  people sometimes have ideas about things that aren't backed up with facts.  and if your vet's got a good reason, ask questions until you understand why.

we feed hay. basically, we feed the least-rich hay we can that keeps them looking excellent, producing well, and in good health.  goats are designed to live on poor-quality forage in the wild, so even though our domestic goats have come a long way from their wild ancestors, overly rich lush feed is not necesarily a good thing.  so it's alfalfa hay no more than 50% for our pregnant or lactating does, and no more than 25% for the bucks/weathers.  the rest of the hay is grass, oat, forage, or a mix of what's available.  we'd keep them on pasture if we had it. we feed them tree trimmings (although you do have to check as a few types of trees are poisonous.) they like the bark and the twigs as well as the leaves.  we feed some grain to the does while they're on the milk stand.  if they're losing condition late in pregnancy we'll feed them some grain then as well.

we keep our goats primarily for the milk so we breed every other year and milk for 12-18 months.  as long as they're healthy and producing, there's no reason to dry them off to breed them again any sooner than that. we let them finish growing up before we breed them - so for our goats that means waiting until 18 months-2 years.  it lets them grow up, and they have less trouble kidding, and less risk of stunting.  it's common sense, since most goat breeds aren't done growing before then.  (unlike our sheep, who may be full grown at a year.)

we watch for signs of issues, rough coat, lots of itching, off feed, bloat, weight loss.  we check their eyelids to evaluate for worms and have fecal samples done if we have questions.  aside from that and vaccines, we don't mess with their health care a lot, mostly its just basics.

we try to keep it as simple as we can.  you can do this, keep it simple, it doesn't have to be stressful.  you can make some mistakes along the way, and mostly the goats tollerate it while you learn.


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## zzGypsy (Nov 4, 2011)

oops, double post


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## kstaven (Nov 5, 2011)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> It's way simpler than you think.  You need to "feed" your goats one thing - hay - if they can't get enough natural food from their environment.   Then you "can" give them some grain.   Bucks don't "need" grain because they would otherwise not eat it in the wild.   But it can supplement their diet to keep them healthy if the fodder that naturally grows in your area doesn't have the nutrients the otherwise need.  Because People got involved with Goats and moved them out of their NORMAL ancient environment,   Minerals are needed as a supplement for their body and muscle growth.
> 
> Does don't "need" grain either, but you "can" give it to them if you want to supplement their diet.  And if you are milking them, it's easier to get them to cooperate on the milk stand if you give them grain in their cup.
> 
> ...


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## kstaven (Nov 5, 2011)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> It's way simpler than you think.  You need to "feed" your goats one thing - hay - if they can't get enough natural food from their environment.   Then you "can" give them some grain.   Bucks don't "need" grain because they would otherwise not eat it in the wild.   But it can supplement their diet to keep them healthy if the fodder that naturally grows in your area doesn't have the nutrients the otherwise need.  Because People got involved with Goats and moved them out of their NORMAL ancient environment,   Minerals are needed as a supplement for their body and muscle growth.
> 
> Does don't "need" grain either, but you "can" give it to them if you want to supplement their diet.  And if you are milking them, it's easier to get them to cooperate on the milk stand if you give them grain in their cup.
> 
> ...


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## kstaven (Nov 5, 2011)

terrilhb said:
			
		

> Thank you all. I love my goats. But today after my conversation with this person I was seriously doubting myself. I read and read. But she really made me question myself. I just talked to someone that said I can sand their horns down so they are not so pointy and dangerous. Not alot just a little. I my self respect the horns. We purposely left the horn on so they have more ways to protect themselves. I am so relieved that I am obviously not wrong. I love my bucks. Very much. (They are spoiled rotten.) Thank you all so much. They are all staying where they belong. Here with me and I know they are happy.  I was also told by her that I need to breed my 2 oldest does to one of my bucks. I am not comfortable with this. 1 doe just had a baby on July 3rd. And the other is only 10 months old. The 10 month old is just a inch smaller than the kid born in July. She is boer and nubian. I do not want to do this and will not. I think it is too soon for the mother that just gave birth and the other is to small and young.


The whole horns vs not thing. Reality is there is no right or wrong there. What it does mean is managing and working with them differently. It also forces you to always be recognized as the boss. Especially important with the bucks this time of year.

We have a yearling buck here right now that is being a real jerk and trying to assert himself with people. After a few trips to the ground and being pinned there he is starting to figure it out. May sound strange but the best thing we ever did was to lead train all our goats. It established a relationship with humans that doesn't change when they are off lead. We start all our kids on lead very early. I know it is odd practice for a dairy, but it has paid off in many ways for us.

You are correct in holding off on the breeding with the smaller doe.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 5, 2011)

I second that zzgypsy,  that was VERY sound advice.   I hope you don't give up on your aspirations Terrihb, because goats are a load of fun.  Just take a look at the thread Thinks I have learned from goats and you will get an idea how much fun they can be... I am still laughing about rubber goats and brown sugar...


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## terrilhb (Nov 12, 2011)

Thank you all. I have been doing alot of research and talking to some people. I am not going to get rid of my babies. I realize I am doing the best I can and all I can do for them. Noone is perfect and we are all still learning. Without this site I think I would have just given up. Thank you all so much. You are all great and so helpful. Thank you all again.


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## Ms. Research (Nov 13, 2011)

Truly glad to hear you are not giving up on your goats.   Truly no one is perfect and no matter how much you research, which IMHO is a good thing, going through it in REAL life is completely different and yes scary.  Goats are definitely not like dogs and cats and people need to know a LOT about keeping goats happy and healthy.   I should say ANY LIVESTOCK.

Glad you found this site and are getting the needed confidence you need to KEEP learning about goats.   Goats truly keep you on your toes but sound like a blast to have around the backyard.


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## kacey142 (Dec 2, 2011)

i ave 9 goats and i think its just beacuase they were maturing and fighting over a female or something like that


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## Queen Mum (Dec 2, 2011)

Sometimes the male of the species (any species)  think with their crotch instead of their heads.  Then they butt heads and that is when the trouble starts... or ends...


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