# I'm another victim.....please help if you can!



## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

First, I want to apologize as this will be a lengthy post, but I greatly appreciate anyone who reads and responds to the best of their ability!

Now,What I mean about being a victim; is I am a victim of my own stupidity!  Like so many people, I have gotten into goats with almost no knowledge having NO IDEA they require a delicate balance of feed and minerals.  I got the first two early spring...loved them so much I wanted to get a buck(after some consideration), then realized the buck(Nubian) should have a buddy....so went to get a wether and got begged to PLEASE,Please,Please take a set of brothers(of course, really cute!!) so they wouldn't have to be sold for meat :/ (she gave me two bucks 1/2 Alpine and 1/2 Nubian for 50.00...total)So, we then realized we needed to castrate one as having TWO bucks is going to be smelly enough!.....did that with a (controversial) banding tool.Along with that, the three of them had recently had a bout of Lungworm, but she had given the first dose of meds for that and we gave the second.So altogether I have 2 Bucklings, one Wether, 1 Alpine doe, 1 Nubian doe, and one Kinder doe.

Here's the reason for my post= I recently got my 3rd female goat( the Nubian doe) a couple weeks ago. I had bought two early this spring, a one year old Kinder and a recently weaned Alpine.Both does.The Kinder is doing magnificently well except for not knowing if she was bred or not.(I was informed she had been running with bucks when I bought her)She is now quite large, but I am not sure if that is just good rumen development, fat, or pregnancy~When I got her she was thin,wiry haired and not as well,.."spunky"... we'll call it. (B-O-S-S-Y ;-) 

The Alpine I got had a cough, and I was told it was "nothing....some goats just do that."  I had both her and the Kinder on grass hay(24-7 access), sweet goat 18 % about 1 cup each two times a day, fresh water 24/7, free-choice baking soda, and a mineral block (red). They NEVER use the block....ever, it is not wet, peed on or anything wrong with it...they just don't use it.

After doing some research, I realized my Alpine was not growing right.She had NO SYMPTOMS except for the coughing.It was a dry cough.I wormed with Ivomec 1 % injectable orally at 2 cc's for the Kinder and 3/4 of a cc for the Alpine...she is 20 lbs soaking wet!She was still not growing.....at all.So after more reading....I bought goat minerals. She has been eating quite a bit of these, and already in a weeks time her coat looks more creamy colored....the cough is gone but she still is really small. After yet MORE reading, I thought....maybe she has a tapeworm?Although, I have seen no evidence of this... So Valbazen is on order right now from Jeffers, along with 180.00 worth of other stuff.I just gave her the second dose of Ivermectin 3 days ago....when should I do the Valbazen? Also, do you think she is stunted? The woman assures me she is a pure Alpine....

Ok, so back to the goat I just got. She's a registered Nubian doe, 4 years old. She is in milk and had twins this spring. I was told by her owner she gives 6 cups sweet goat 18% (same as mine)per milking. This is what we were doing....BUT....my husband accidentally gave her an additional 6-8 cups last Tuesday. Well, by Wednesday...she had scours and was not doing well at all.Her symptoms were, lethargy,heavy breathing,scours, some grunting,teeth grinding, off feed and water,and disinterest in anything.I don't know if she had a fever as I had no thermometer at the time(we do now!)I did not know what had happened, so I gave her some Pen G and started reading....again...anyway, I ended up taking her off grain, and giving her just grass hay and water(she ate/drank none). I gave her Pen G every day along with a shot of vitamin b complex, and 10 grams of Probios powder (the first day and 5 grams each day since)mixed with a small amount of electrolyte water and syringed it into her. I have been offering her fresh leaves and at first she would not eat even those.Thursday she started shivering....so I was researching again...and thought..."milk fever?!" so I gave her some Tums crushed up with a tiny amount of Molasses and some Vitamin water.I also made her get up and walk a couple of minutes two times a day.I have no idea if she is deficient in minerals but she will not eat the loose minerals yet.I am hoping as she improves she will show interest as it has done a lot of good for the others.
It has now been 4 days and she is finally eating some hay again! Yay~ She is starting to get pill poops again.She had been wormed with Ivomec once but I held the second dosing 10 days later as she was really sick and I did not think it was from worms or parasites.When can I redose her? She is eating again but now she has a line of thinning hair on her back only along the spine(no signs of lice/parasites and really no itching)....probably from stress? So I don't want to tax her body even more....I stopped milking but once every other day as she was not producing anything to speak of...how long before I can start her on grain again?And how much to start?

Here is what our feeding plan is now....3/4 grass hay and 1/4 Alfalpha hay free choice. Baking soda and loose minerals free choice. Mineral block free choice( just in case the Nubian will use it)Sweet goat 18% about a cup twice a day for the non-milking does, a cup once a day for the wether and the 2 bucklings, and 6 cups per milking session for the milkers. Everyone will get probios sprinkled on the grains.In summer we will offer plain water and one bucket of vitamin/electrolyte water.Also, we bring them fresh leaves.

I am including a list of things I currently have or are on their way...I would love it if someone could tell me what I am missing....our plan is to have 2 milkers(we will be keeping the Nubian and getting another Nubian), 2 bucks and the wether.( I know we don't NEED that many boys, but what was I to do?!  )We will be breeding and selling the kids off in the spring after they are weaned.The Kinder and the Alpine will be sold for pets if I can manage to part with them!

I have/will have in a few days...
CD Antitoxin
Tetanus Antitoxin
Bio-Mycin 200
Ammonium Chloride Soluble Powder
Pasteurella Vaccine
Calcium Gluconate
CD&T Vaccine
Pen G
Hoof and Heel
Iodine
Goat Minerals
Baking Soda
Syringes
Needles(different sizes)
Corid
Blu-Kote
Gloves
Vet wrap
Triple Antibiotic ointment 
Python Dust
Vitamin B complex
Probios powder
Vitamin/Electroytes for water
Thermometer
Stomach tube
Funnel
Drench gun
Shears
Hoof Trimmers
Milk Stand (we built it from Fias Co website plans)
Homemade udder wash of Iodine/water
Milking Bucket
Wet Wipes (we use these for many reasons)
Puppy pads (for any birthings)
Clippers (for removing does hair when about to kid)
Disbudding Iron 

And eventually, I'd like a Hobbler for my "Spunky" Kinder 

These goats are awesome but....they are going to worry me to death!Good thing I don't give up easily and don't mind a challenge... Any advice from experts or long time goat owners is appreciated  Thanks for reading!


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## Pearce Pastures (Sep 2, 2012)

Please forgive me for this, but I am not sure what all your questions were.    If you have a chance, could you type them up list style?

I would say as far as the feeding program you have, it sounds good but I'd nix the baking soda.

How did they know it was lungworm?  I ask because this usually requires a special test and I am curious as to if they did it.  
Also, how old are the goats?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

okay, I would say that the young alpine doe is probably dealing with parasites and coccidiosis, especially coccidiosis. and yes it can stunt them as adults. Best way to tell is to get a fecal done.  
The other doe that is lethargic and scouring, could also be a worm load, but also could be overeating disease form stress of a change in her home or change in diet. 
Have they been vaccinated with CD&T?

I wouldn't assume the coughing was due to lungworms. Lungworms really aren't that common. I would be more likely to assume a respirtory infection.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Sure,
 When can I put the Nubian back on grain and how much at a time? Could her hair loss be stress related?
Here is a pic of Heidi..before she got sick...she is 4 years old






The Alpine....is she permanently stunted? And what else can I do to assist any more growth?
Here is a pic of her this week...she was bought weaned in May this year at about 2 months old...she is now roughly 6 months old...and probably weighs 20-30 lbs.




Here is a pic of her in relation to Heidi...who is a pure Nubian and a bit small for her breed I was told.








The Kinder was sold to me as a year old( she has 2 big teeth in the center of her gum, the others look smaller.......they said she had kidded but that does not make sense to me her being a year and already had kids?? Anyway, she has gotten really fat and I am just not sure if she is pregnant or not??
This is her under the feeder on the left....





And another pic of her....





And one more....






Here is the Nubian buckling...he is a little over 3 months old...







Here are the Wether and his brother...they are 3 months old...and getting bigger than the Nubian who is a bit older......





As for the Lungworm...it was diagnosed by their vet...and she gave me the treatment but I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called......


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> okay, I would say that the young alpine doe is probably dealing with parasites and coccidiosis, especially coccidiosis. and yes it can stunt them as adults. Best way to tell is to get a fecal done.
> The other doe that is lethargic and scouring, could also be a worm load, but also could be overeating disease form stress of a change in her home or change in diet.
> Have they been vaccinated with CD&T?
> 
> I wouldn't assume the coughing was due to lungworms. Lungworms really aren't that common. I would be more likely to assume a respirtory infection.


I have treated with Ivermectin...and the cough is now gone...she has NO scours....and otherwise shows no symptoms....she's just tiny. I have Corid on hand...should i treat her for Cocci anyway?

The Nubian was only sick AFTER my DH gave her too much grains....she is doing MUCH better now....except for the hair loss right along the spine...I also used Python dust on them last week too....just to try and stave off the flies...

Yes, everyone has been CD&T vaccinated, wormed


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

Your alpine doe looks protein deficient and very wormy. I would say she for sure can be improved on, but will never be as big as she could have been.  So Yes, I think she is stunted.  

I would like to ask you about your grass hay. What kind of hay, which cutting? first or 2nd?  how often do you bring it home?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

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?Did you say you also treated her with Penn G?  or was that just the doe with the upset stomach?


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Hmmm..protein deficient? Wormy? I used the Ivermectin so she shouldn't have worms except maybe tapes, right? Or am I way too confused from all this reading? lol.....
She gets 2 cups a day of 18% sweet goat...the hay is from a farmer up the road and we buy about 20 bales at a time....It is some type of fescue...I really don't know much about it other than it has some weeds in it...and they seem to love it...
I also bring them fresh leaves as I have no pasture....
Also, the others are growing fine on it...but...she is from a different farm....


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

You need to either get a fecal done on her, the small one, or go ahead and treat for coccidiosis and use a good wormer on her. And repeat in 21 days, 3 times in a row.  

Valbazene should be done three days in a row. and the most common dosage recommendations that I am seeing at this time is 1 cc per 25 lbs.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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No, she has never had Pen G...only the doe with the bad stomach issues....she had a dry cough that went away with one dose of the Ivermectin...


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> You need to either get a fecal done on her, the small one, or go ahead and treat for coccidiosis and use a good wormer on her. And repeat in 21 days, 3 times in a row.
> 
> Valbazene should be done three days in a row. and the most common dosage recommendations that I am seeing at this time is 1 cc per 25 lbs.


Valbazen is on order...but she JUST got wormed with the other last week...is it too soon to do it again?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

> Hmmm..protein deficient? Wormy? I used the Ivermectin so she shouldn't have worms except maybe tapes, right? Or am I way too confused from all this reading? lol.....
> She gets 2 cups a day of 18% sweet goat...the hay is from a farmer up the road and we buy about 20 bales at a time....It is some type of fescue...I really don't know much about it other than it has some weeds in it...and they seem to love it...
> I also bring them fresh leaves as I have no pasture....
> Also, the others are growing fine on it...but...she is from a different farm....


Okay, you said what I was afraid you were going to say.  You need better hay. Fescue is not that good of hay.  

the protein deficiency will come from her stomach not digesting properly from being wormy, my guess would be coccidiosis.  And your hay isn't providing enough energy for the young growing animals. You have any pasture at all?  any browse for them?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

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I would do it again, when you get the valbazene in.


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## Roll farms (Sep 2, 2012)

I'd bet dollars to donuts that your 'pure alpine' is a pygmy / pygmy cross.

Have a fecal ran by a vet.  Have them do a cocci float.  When they verify coccidiosis, do repeat treatments every 21 days for at least 3 rounds.


All goats carry cocci....young ones / weak / sick ones w/ weakened immune systems cannot fight it off and get coccidiosis- which damages the intestinal lining and stunts their growth.  I'd have the 'alpine' doeling and your wethers / buck all checked.

Do you known if the vet verified lung worm or just 'guessed' a diagnosis.

A lot of vets don't 'know' goats, and treat them like mini horses or cattle....or read a bit and throw out a diagnosis that may or may not be accurate.  

We've had 1 bout w/ lungworm, and we injected ivermectin to treat it.  We give ivo orally for stomach / gut worms.  Inject it for anything else (mites, lungworm, liver fluke - ivo plus - etc.)  Have fecals ran to verify which worms you're having problems with.....have follow fecals ran to verify that your deworming is working.

NEVER give Valbazen to a bred doe.

Try top dressing their sweet feed w/ the mineral....at least some of it will stick to the molasses and you'll know they're getting some.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Oh no  I feel bad! I can get better hay I'm sure....
Can cocci have no symptoms?? Other than poor growth?
Also, I have Corid powder....what mix/dosage?


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'd bet dollars to donuts that your 'pure alpine' is a pygmy / pygmy cross.
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> Have a fecal ran by a vet.  Have them do a cocci float.  When they verify coccidiosis, do repeat treatments every 21 days for at least 3 rounds.
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I wondered if she was a pygmy cross....The only buck I noticed on the property was a pygmy...but she insists that she is pure....
as for the Vet...I don't know if it was a test or not...but she did say that they(the lungworms) were resistant to the Ivomec so she had something else to be given orally...it was like a pinkish color...

As for the Kinder...any guesses on pregnancy??


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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Will do...and will look into getting different hay. What should I be looking for?

Also, do you think the Kinder is pregnant?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

> Oh no  I feel bad! I can get better hay I'm sure....
> Can cocci have no symptoms?? Other than poor growth?
> Also, I have Corid powder....what mix/dosage?


look for a orchard grass or timothy hay or mix. and 2nd cutting if you can find it. 
yes, cocci can just have poor growth rate. 

interesting theory of rolls"s, that she doesn't think you Alpine is purebred. I don't know enough about alpines to know the difference. She certainly would. But regardless that pot-bellied look is due to problems.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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Yes, I do bring them fresh trees/shrubbery daily....or walk them down our dirt road and they browse along the way. I do not have pasture but I do have a lawn...they do not eat the grass....


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Ok, I'll look for the better hay...also, Rolls....what makes you think she is a cross? Is it just the size?


And what dose of Corid powder? And for how long?Do I do that along with the Valbazen or after?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=10922  see if this helps, I haven't run the powdered corid numbers for a while. I can rerun the numbers if you need me two. Roll should also know it. 

as far as the kinder, That picture is hard to tell, but she does look big in the belly. I would need a picture of her standing up, of her girl parts and udder.  
LIke this.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll look for the better hay...also, Rolls....what makes you think she is a cross? Is it just the size?
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> And what dose of Corid powder? And for how long?Do I do that along with the Valbazen or after?


Yes, you can treat at the same time.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2012)

You would be better off finding alfalfa or alfalfa mix hay. 2nd cutting or 3rd cutting. You want to make sure that your total feed/hay intake is at least 2:1 calcium to phosphorus and I personally like to see more like 2.5-3:1 calcium to phosphorus. 

Definitely do the fecals.

If there is any Alpine in that little one, it certainly isn't pure. Wouldn't be surprised if she was an Alpine/Pygmy cross but really it could be anything with Pygmy if the buck was a Pygmy.

Are you drying up totally the Nubian? If you are, I wouldn't give any grain until she is dry. That will help her dry up faster. Then just give the 1 cup you are giving the rest.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Ok, I got the pics....here she is in a not so sweet pose 

Bailey's behind take one!





And a top view....







Her teats....nothing there right?






And a total shot....






I should add that in the last week or so she has become more moody...more BOSSY with the younger ones as well....she eats a LOT!
So, what do you think? Is she just fat? Or is she going to kid tomorrow??


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> You would be better off finding alfalfa or alfalfa mix hay. 2nd cutting or 3rd cutting. You want to make sure that your total feed/hay intake is at least 2:1 calcium to phosphorus and I personally like to see more like 2.5-3:1 calcium to phosphorus.
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I am going to let her dry up now,yes since she has been through enough! I plan to try and get her bred this year....will my young boys be able to accomplish this? Or should I look for a stud for her?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2012)

Definitely no udder development. So she probably wouldn't be delivering soon.

You can try your boys. I can't remember how old they are.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

well, the last time she was with a buck to my knowledge is the end of April.....


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

> well, the last time she was with a buck to my knowledge is the end of April.....


Being lazy, did you say she has kidded before?  I was leaning towards looking pregnant, but not due for 8 to 10 weeks. then  Ilook at the last picture of her and think she is not pregnant and just fat with a big rumen from being the boss in the herd. 
she does not look 4 months pregnant to me. Has she been around any other bucklings this summer? Younger bucklings that you may have underestimated their ability to breed a doe?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2012)

That would put her at the end of September to deliver. So she should start developing an udder if she is pregnant.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

No, she has been getting progressively fatter for a couple of weeks now....the bucklings are 3 months old and have been here for 2 weeks and have never mounted her...they are all scared of her....she is actually not the head of the herd, Heidi is but she is not mean about it. She's very gentle but lets them know she is boss when needed.

I bought her the last weekend in April....the people told me she was due to come in heat in a couple of days they THOUGHT, but that she had been running with bucks and may be pregnant. I figure if she got pregnant right before (last case scenario)I got her....the LATEST would be October...right? Right now would be roughly 126 days....or so....

When does the udder start developing?

ETA: the bucks are getting separated today; actually as we speak....the DH and my DS are putting up the girls fencing today......so the boys will be alone and the girls will be alone.... I'm so excited to give them their own areas!


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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The people said she was one year old in April this year and that she had had a single kid already,so next time she should have two....I was so foolish and did not get their info....


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## SheepGirl (Sep 2, 2012)

She looks pregnant to me, but she also looks like she has a big rumen. Do you see how the left side of her is 'up' in the last photo? That's her rumen...in the picture below, you can see these open ewes 'look' pregnant but they actually have big rumens.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

Aww, those are cute  
See why I am not sure what to think?? Lol...I just know she has gotten bigger but like I said....she was kinda skinny when i got her...at least to me....I know her coat is like a billion times healthier looking, but maybe she was shedding at the time? But then again, she has more color to her coat too now....
Here is a pic shortly after i got her in April....






Here is another...






here are some (blurry,sorry) pics of her hooves when i got her....they look good now  But this is one reason I question her health status...if her feet were this bad.... 





Kinda hard to see in the pics but her bones felt "sharp" if you know what i mean.....so being she is my first goat, i am unsure of proper growth....

ETA: when I got her...she would MOW the lawn!!I had to take her off it because i was worried she would get sick! Now she won't eat grass....or even dandelion leaves...


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2012)

Looking at those pictures, it looks to me like she has just filled out and gained weight with good feed.


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## NYRIR (Sep 2, 2012)

well, either way I am happy....I was worried she was extremely obese but when i looked at the pics on Fias Co website, she says if your goat looks pregnant, it is in "good condition"...so either way she is in better health....that's the important thing! I am laying off the grain with her a bit....see if it helps....


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 2, 2012)

I am leaning towards not pregnant as well.  Good luck with your goats ,We just got in from treating some snotty noses and a problem case we are dealing with. Always has to be one.


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## NYRIR (Sep 3, 2012)

My plan is to treat with Corid and Valbazen. I will not treat Bailey until I know she is not pregnant for sure....I am hoping to see an improvement in Cinnamon,the Alpine baby...at least some growth!
The two black and white bucklings (born June 21st) are still coughing a wet cough after the second dose of Ivomec....so I'll be anxious to see if the Valbazen dries that cough up...I do think it takes time to dry up though.(it has only been two days)
I am hoping that one of my two intact bucklings will be able to breed this year with my Nubian doe. What do you think? And about how long would I have for her to have heat cycles?

This site, I have to say has been helpful , so I thank you all for that!

I will update on the Alpine with pictures later to show the difference after some more worming and dietary changes.

I also appreciate not being "blasted" for getting goats without researching them first.Yes, I am irritated enough with my seemingly uncurable impulsive behavior! I tend to leap without looking first....and as for the little "Alpine"doe...I feel very guilty about her condition, but all I can do now is try to improve it. She is an absolutely sweet little thing, and loves attention 


As for the bucks....how much are they REALLY going to smell? And will they continue the rut if the does get pregnant? Or will that calm them down?
Oh, and I couldn't breed Bailey (the Kinder) to a Nubian, could I? Would I need a smaller male?
Sorry for all the needy questions....and thanks for all the responses!


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## SheepGirl (Sep 3, 2012)

The cough the boys have could be a respiratory infection rather than lungworm-related. I can't remember if you checked their temp or not, but if it's elevated you should treat with antibiotics rather than a dewormer and see what that does for them. If they don't have temps then it could be caused by worms or dust.


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## Symphony (Sep 3, 2012)

I did this with Sheep so I feel for you but you really need to get a skilled Vet out there.


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 4, 2012)

> As for the bucks....how much are they REALLY going to smell?


Like skunks! For real!  

Yes you should use a smaller buck for smaller girls.


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## redtailgal (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm still pretty new to goats, so take what I say with a grain of salt (or two).

As for they hay:

I feed my goats a weedy fescue mix.  I dont keep track of what cutting it is, they eat the same hay that the cattle eat and they do well with it.  They also have plenty of wooded forage and a nice grassy area to graze if they want.  I have four wethers (two are going to freezer camp and two are just pets) and two does that will be bred next year for meat babies. I dont milk anything.  

I also have a friend who has a small dairy with nubians.  She feeds the same hay that I feed.  It's good quality, but a weedy fescue.  Her goats also have plenty of forage and graze available to them and would probably need a different hay if they didnt.

As for the meds:

You've really laid a lot of meds to these goats.  I really suggest you getting good fecals done on them before laying anymore meds in their systems.  FInd out what you are dealing with, and treat them for that.  Part of me wonders if some of the puny-ness is from all the meds that they have received.  It could be that their systems just are overwhelmed right now.


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## NYRIR (Sep 5, 2012)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> The cough the boys have could be a respiratory infection rather than lungworm-related. I can't remember if you checked their temp or not, but if it's elevated you should treat with antibiotics rather than a dewormer and see what that does for them. If they don't have temps then it could be caused by worms or dust.


Yep, going to do that tonight with help from DH. If it's a temp, I'll try the Pen G


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## NYRIR (Sep 5, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> I did this with Sheep so I feel for you but you really need to get a skilled Vet out there.


Working on that too


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## NYRIR (Sep 5, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I'm still pretty new to goats, so take what I say with a grain of salt (or two).
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Actually, the only meds the small one has gotten is Ivermectin.Two doses of 3/4 of a cc each.That's why people said to do the Corid for Cocci, I have yet to see any symptoms in this girl...except she HAD a cough before Ivermectin and now does not. No scours,ever. Great appetite,no signs of discomfort....just small.

The  Nubian that got sick after eating a load of grain I gave Pen G, Vitamin B complex,Probios, vit/electrolytes,Tums 2 times, and she did NOT get her second dose of Ivermectin when already sick.I read a bunch on this site and followed suggestions....she is doing great now 

One of the three boys got Lungworm meds from a vet(it was a month before), and I decided to do Ivermectin for all of them as well since the cough was still prevalent.The cough is now gone in the one and the other two are getting temps tonight to see if they need antibiotics.They eat well,socialize,are growing fast,and have no scours....just a cough that sounds wet.

Hay:Ours is also a weedy fescue, they love it. The Pygmy and the Nubian look really good on it, so I am assuming it is ok.The boys are growing well too.We do not have a specific area for forage but live on a mountain and there are woods all around us. We sometimes walk the goats and allow them to browse along the roadside, or bring them down to a secluded pond area. When time is more limited we gather it and bring it to them.Fortunately, I only have to work part time and home school 2 of my kids so we have lots of time with the goats.We are enjoying their funny antics 

I am also one to not like giving meds, believe me.....we raise ALL our chickens,Turkeys and waterfowl on UNmedicated feed.I don't give anything ;except we worm once a year in the fall, unless there is a problem.We prefer to use Python dust versus any pour-ons for treatment when needed of lice and mites.(ETA;We have roughly 150 chickens to dust, by hand!) I have had to treat only 2 sets of chicks for Cocci in 4 years, and I hatch out of 4 incubators from early spring to late summer, so we hatch a lot of chicks!
We do our best to keep the animals happy and healthy...and try to use the least amount of meds we can.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 5, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I'm still pretty new to goats, so take what I say with a grain of salt (or two).
> 
> As for they hay:
> 
> ...


I thought fescue was toxic to goats in large amounts & it was bad for pregnant goats? Is this true or no? If not I am going to take more advantage of the field next to my house every time he mows he leaves the hay for me but since it is mostly fescue usually the rabbits get it & I use some for bedding. The boys get some mixed with their coastal/alfalfa mix but I haven't been giving it to the girls.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 5, 2012)

It depends on the fescue. Endophyte free fescue is ok. The regular fescue is not.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 5, 2012)

How do you tell if it's endophyte free?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 5, 2012)

I don't know. I'm guessing you need to know what type was planted. I just don't bother with fescue since you do have to have the right one.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 5, 2012)

Ok, well thanks for that info. I'm not sure what type is next door so I will continue to use it carefully.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 5, 2012)

Fescue planted for hay fields should certainly be the safe kind. Now if you get some bailed hay from a pasture that someone decided to bale up, then I would be a little more concerned. Fesc ue is not considered to be one of the more nutritious varieties of grass hays, so if you are feeding fescue I would for sure have pasture available as well or I would be feeding grain. It would also of course depend on what you are doing with your goats and what stage of growth they are in. A mature nigerian Dwarf can get fat on air, they might do okay on Fescue hay or a mixed grass hay with fescue in it. On the other hand if you are feeding out growing kids or feeding a doe in milk, then I personally wouldn't waste my time with it, unless that is all that you can find. it would be benificial as a fiber and filler.  I did feed some last fall, when I still had some pasture but it was gettin colder outside and I wanted to supplement with some extra hay. It worked out well. The goats liked it.  Our rabbits loved it.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 5, 2012)

Yeah I wouldn't use it at all except it's free from the field next door so I mix it in the buck's hay & the rabbits get some. Usually they get coastal & alfalfa hay.


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## NYRIR (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm going to try and get more info on mine. I would just switch to another type if needed but this is really close by and she only charges me 2.50 for a bale...the bales are packed well and some I trade duck eggs for....she told me it was a pasture before she bought the land and that it was what they used for their livestock....not sure what kind of livestock they had, but probably cattle.
Soooo....who would I contact about testing it? I'm curious to see what is in it now....so much to learn!


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## redtailgal (Sep 6, 2012)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it's endophyte free fescue, then you are fine.  Tall fescue is normally infected.  The infected hay is not usually a problem unless feeding to pregnant critters.  It will cause abortion in some, and in others cause the placental sac to become too thick, disallowing the mother of baby from being able to open the sac.

Planting a GOOD endophyte resistant fescue, and proper management of your fields will prevent toxic hay.

Fescue is actually a pretty good hay, when managed correctly.  Ours has a protein of about 9.75 and a TDN of 60.  We harvest between 600-800 round bales a year, feed what we need to the critters and sell the rest.  I use it cuz it's there and I earn it when I am working the hayfields.  Goats do need a higher protein than that, so if they are drylotted, they should have a higher protein hay.

My goats do very well on it.  My two does and my two wethers have stayed fat and slick  all summer, despite not getting grain from June until about last week.

Fescue gets a bad name sometimes, but when planted, managed, and harvested properly it is an excellent and affordable hay.

Contact your local ag extension office. They can tell you how to get your hay tested.


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## NYRIR (Sep 8, 2012)

Wow.....ok, I will def be testing it for sure....man, who would have thought! Thanks for sharing the info redtailgal!


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## bonbean01 (Sep 8, 2012)

Don't feel bad...sometimes our enthusiasm gets the better of us...we too got sheep for the first time and realized that we didn't know squat!!!!  Just sorry we didn't know about this forum then...so many excellent people on here that truly do care and are so generous with their knowledge and sharing information...can't begin to thank all who have been so helpful!!!!  There is a learning curve and we were so far behind it...catching up through the years and this forum has been more helpful than all the internet research we did.  Again...thank you to all the super great people on here!!!!!!


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## B'Orion Farms (Sep 8, 2012)

OMG!  You sound so much like me when I got my first goats.  I researched myself to death, tried everything and gave them everything I read or heard about.  Years later, this is what I do:  No body gets grain or alfalfa except pregnant or nursing mamas.  My wethers and girls with no kids get only Timothy grass and fresh cut tree limbs and leaves.  Peanuts for treats.  I have a lot of trouble here with UC and have had to have the urinary tract of my goat wether rerouted it was so bad.  The water all along the Rocky Mountains is high in calcium, causing an increase in UC incidence.  Anyway, my goats were FAT, and are still fat.  They still get free choice loose minerals, a mineral block and baking soda.  They get CDT but I have taken them off the BoSe (selenium) unless they are kidding.  So far, so good. Seemed like the more I read and researched, the crazier I became making sure I was doing everything right.  Try to relax and have fun!  

I have to admit, however, that I recently got chickens for the first time and now find myself doing the same darn thing with them.  Must be in our nature!  Good luck to you.


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## NYRIR (Sep 11, 2012)

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> Don't feel bad...sometimes our enthusiasm gets the better of us...we too got sheep for the first time and realized that we didn't know squat!!!!  Just sorry we didn't know about this forum then...so many excellent people on here that truly do care and are so generous with their knowledge and sharing information...can't begin to thank all who have been so helpful!!!!  There is a learning curve and we were so far behind it...catching up through the years and this forum has been more helpful than all the internet research we did.  Again...thank you to all the super great people on here!!!!!!


I know what you mean...I have crammed in some research but really like having people on the other end to answer questiions...especially people who started out like me


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## NYRIR (Sep 11, 2012)

B'Orion Farms said:
			
		

> OMG!  You sound so much like me when I got my first goats.  I researched myself to death, tried everything and gave them everything I read or heard about.  Years later, this is what I do:  No body gets grain or alfalfa except pregnant or nursing mamas.  My wethers and girls with no kids get only Timothy grass and fresh cut tree limbs and leaves.  Peanuts for treats.  I have a lot of trouble here with UC and have had to have the urinary tract of my goat wether rerouted it was so bad.  The water all along the Rocky Mountains is high in calcium, causing an increase in UC incidence.  Anyway, my goats were FAT, and are still fat.  They still get free choice loose minerals, a mineral block and baking soda.  They get CDT but I have taken them off the BoSe (selenium) unless they are kidding.  So far, so good. Seemed like the more I read and researched, the crazier I became making sure I was doing everything right.  Try to relax and have fun!
> 
> I have to admit, however, that I recently got chickens for the first time and now find myself doing the same darn thing with them.  Must be in our nature!  Good luck to you.


I am so envious you have found your niche with your goat feeding and care....I cant wait to get there! They are all growing except the one....she is 27 lbs of Alpine (??) doe....so frustrating....I have no idea if it is something I did or didn't do....but she acts perfectly fine and her coat looks great....she's just so tiny.
I have 2 Bucklings and a wether, but I really hope I never have to deal with UC...I did buy the ammonium chloride, any recs on how much to use?
Lol @ the chickens...we have a LOT of chickens and we were only going to have 6.... ;-)...and then only 3 ducks too....


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 11, 2012)

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm


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## B'Orion Farms (Sep 11, 2012)

NYRIR said:
			
		

> B'Orion Farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A couple of years ago I purchased a baby nubian girl for a family member.  After a year, she was still the size of our nigerians.  Now, two years later, she's a little bigger, but still very small.  She's healthy and happy, just little.  Maybe you're is that way too?

I have, over the years, fed ammonium chloride.  The best way I found it by mixing it with peanut butter.  After a while, my boys got tired of peanut butter, so I stopped for a while.  Guess it's time to get back on it.  I've tried just about every way possible.    Have fun...


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## redtailgal (Sep 11, 2012)

I just put the ammonium cloride in the drinking water.


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