# Looking for Advice and Experience



## CntryBoy777 (Jan 18, 2017)

I am weighing my "Options" for some fencing needs and am looking for advice and expeience, along with suggestions on my best answer for a solution. I will admit here that I have absolutely no experience with proper techniques, terminology, or products available for this purpose, so there is a "Blank Slate" to work with here.
I need to fence off a fairly sizeable piece of land and am not only inexperienced, but handicapped too physically and monetarily. There has been much spoken on many Threads about cattle panels and the multiple uses of them, also have seen their use in many pictures shared of animals with them. My thoughts are if I used them instead of traditional fencing, the cost would be fairly comparative, or even cheaper, faster, and much less physical work to install them over the Woven wire fencing.
The only animals that would be inside the panels would be pygmy goats and poultry. There will not be any others added in the future that would be any different. If I went with the cattle panels 2"x4" openings, what would be the best way to install them to contain the animals? It doesn't have to last forever or even 20yrs down the road, because I won't be here then, and the animals that are left will probably be sold anyway. So, any thoughts, advice, and opinions will certainly be very Welcomed....Thanks!


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## NH homesteader (Jan 18, 2017)

I use cattle panels for my buck pen, and will use them when we have a barn to fence in a small area outside for winter, and inside to divide kidding pens... But, they're kind of expensive. They're$20-25 a piece and only 16' long. I haven't priced out woven wire yet but seems like it would be cheaper. Seems like poultry might be able to fit through the holes unless you put chicken wire up.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 18, 2017)

Well, once you add up the wire, posts, concrete, and labor that includes stretching, and digging the post holes with a clamshell digger $22.50/16' doesn't seem to be that much more expensive in the long run and it should be much faster to put up for me, anyway.


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## NH homesteader (Jan 18, 2017)

Concrete? Yeah we don't use concrete lol. Yes they are easier to handle! I do like them, and I'm guilty of climbing over them because I don't feel like walking over to the gate!


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## Bruce (Jan 18, 2017)

Like everything else, Your Mileage May Vary 

I have NO IDEA how much "pressure" pygmy goats put on a fence but surely they don't need a lot of height. Chickens put no pressure on the fence but will easily fly a 4' fence, some a 5' and some a 6' ... Though USUALLY they like to land on the top before they go over so you can sometimes solve that problem with a wire above the top of a 4' fence.

As far as keeping the chickens in, cattle panels have 8" wide x 6" high openings except the very bottom where there are two 4" high. My concern is that chickens can likely get through a 6" opening. My solution to that is cheesy  I have a lot of old yellow or orange hot wire rope that was up on wimpy wood posts not deep enough in the ground. I'm filling in the first and maybe second 6" opening with a horizontal run of that stuff. I really don't know how high I would have to go up with that if the girls are intent on getting out. Not sure if they have the ability to fly up a couple of feet, bring their wings in and land on the horizontal wire of a 8"x6" opening. They aren't songbirds after all.

In my experience, limited though it is, chickens will pretty much follow their beaks along the ground if they have plenty to keep them occupied (ie plants and bugs) and nothing exciting on the other side. They may stay inside a fence line without too much extra effort on your part. Another consideration is "what is on the other side"? If there aren't neighbors that would get in a huff if some chickens wandered on their property now and then, less of a problem. And since I think you are home most of the time you could likely keep an eye on them. We let our girls wander the area around the house if we are home. Only Echo has ever crossed the road and that was after the fox dropped her and she ran, blindly I imagine. Some of the girls will go out into the edge of the road, no idea why and not a popular thing with me! That isn't real common though.

If the goats aren't a problem, you can use the strength of the cattle panels to hold up at the corners (put one T-post for each panel 4" from the corner where two panels meet) so you don't need wood posts and bracing like you will for a stretched fence. You will still need braced or concreted posts (bracing here is still good) on the hinge side of gates ASSUMING you are using structural metal or wood gates. Join the panels with hog rings. At @farmerjan's suggestion, I overlapped my panels one "opening". That makes each joint quite strong but I am keeping out predators and thought I was keeping in a large dog. You may be able to just butt them together and join with cheap hog rings or the $3.50 wire panel connector hinge from Premier 1. Don't try to put a T-post at the joint, that will make it really hard to clip the panel to the post. 

You can make a gate out of a piece of cattle panel the desired width and "hang" that with the wire panel connector hinge. I don't think I'd want to make a wide gate that way but would be functional for a 3' or 4' "people" gate. That sort of gate wouldn't need to be hung on a braced wood post. Put a T-Post midway between the vertical pieces at the end of the fence as you would for the end of that panel anyway. If you want a 6' or 8' gate, you could hinge a 3' or 4' piece of panel on T-Posts on both sides. You would need to clip the cattle panel gate high and low.

Note, however, that cattle panels don't do "rolling ground". You'll either have to dig a trough or mount the panel higher on the posts to accommodate somewhat non flat ground.

Sheep and Goat or Field fence frequently comes in 330' rolls. That would be roughly equivalent to 20 Cattle Panels. TSC sells them for $22 each or > $450. Woven Field fence is $150, Sheep and Goat $280. Figure 1 T-post every 10' for stretched fence, I used 1 every 8' for the cattle panel part of my fence. As you noted, a single cattle panel is a LOT easier to move around than a 330' roll of woven fence of any nature. Those rolls weigh ~200 pounds and up vs 36 pounds for a 16' cattle panel. And you can move a cattle panel without lifting most of it, just pull it along behind you.

Not sure how big an area you are planning. It would help if you used the Google Area Calculator https://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-area-calculator-tool.htm to define the area  so those who might have an opinion can see what they are dealing with.

Pounding T-posts can be pretty hard on the body unless you have really nice rock free ground. Not sure what it would cost to rent a power pounder and even those have a certain physical impact given they are heavy. Quick search found a rentable PD-55 and it WEIGHS 55 pounds. There might be others that are lighter. I know NOTHING about these things but: How one gets that up on top of a T-post, even by putting it on then tilting, is beyond me. The generic manual one I bought at TSC weighs 17 pounds and that seems heavy enough to me when I am messing with it over shoulder height.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 18, 2017)

This is the area to be fenced, except for the line ontop between the 2 northern points, when looking right to left. There is already an existing fence in thet area. The calculator says it is 0.17 acres. Since all I have is a phone I had to take a screenshot to be able to post it, hope it helps.


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## babsbag (Jan 18, 2017)

@Bruce, they do make a cattle panel that is 2x4 square and 4x4 square, they are the only ones I buy anymore but they aren't cheap... $$$$. I would never use field fencing or the cattle panels with the big squares. Chickens go out and other things come in. Also baby goats go right through them. 
You still have to use t-posts with cattle panels so you don't save any money there. You can use t-post corners as well, they kit is called 'wedge lock' and they do work so no concrete or wood posts except on gates.

At a minimum I would use the sheep and goat woven wire fencing and hopefully find some one to help you stretch it.

Best thing since sliced bread. I bought it before I retired when I actually had money. That was before goats too...hmmm. I think I am on to something there. 
http://www.rohrermfg.com/post-drivers/98e-basic-t-post-driver/


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## Bruce (Jan 18, 2017)

@babsbag That pounder is only 26 pounds, definitely more reasonable if one can be found to rent.

Regarding the panels, yep I know they make different size openings in different panels. TSC only calls the one I referenced (the cheapest) a 'cattle panel'. Though @CntryBoy777 said 'cattle panel' he also said 2x4 openings. I should have paid more attention to that! Those are "horse panels" on TSC and cost $90 for a 16'. That definitely makes the fence WAY more expensive.

I didn't find actually stretching the wire to be the hard part though it would have been easier to have someone helping to raise it as I cranked.The longest piece was about 170'. The HARD part was digging all the holes in rocky ground for the wood posts. Still need a lot of T-posts either way. For stretching I had to buy 2 come-alongs and make 2 stretchers from 2x4s and bolts.

As you know, I am unimpressed with the Wedge-Locs and surely wouldn't trust them in even a semi-permanent fence. TSC isn't carrying them anymore so they weren't good sellers.

@CntryBoy777 Quite the odd shape! Is that related to topography which is not obvious from these satellite photos? Or maybe there is an angle from which the satellite photo was taken?

What are the linear dimensions? On regular Google you can do a "measure distance" once you click on a point. A quick check on my property with those 2 'calculators' suggests .17 acres would be about 380' total. In $90 horse panels that would be over $2K!   Yes there is existing fence on one side but still! 

I don't suppose there are some local teens that would dig you some post holes for cheap? If you can get them down 3' you shouldn't need to use any concrete. If you aren't hanging a gate off the corner you can use floating braces as shown by @greybeard instead of an H-brace. That saves 2 posts and holes. If you are putting a gate there, you can use a floating brace on the strike post. I did that in the 'middle' of my west fence line. The NW corner of my fencing is in concrete since I hit ledge at 2' down and is floating braced. Not sure how I can get a gate in there unless I want to concrete in more posts


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 18, 2017)

Well, as far as the angles go the lines go straight, and mine will end up more curved, because of the layout, and that other side is the existing goat pen.  which as you can see has a hill in it, the basic lay-of-the-land is relatively flat. this looks back towards that area, and the fence is behind yonder goat. This new area would tie into that and come to about where I was standing to take this pic. This next pic is me turning to the left... ...as it dog-legs to the right, so the fence would too. Guess I was just looking for an easyway out, cause it is just me and tho I can dig post holes by hand, I'd prefer not to and handling rolls of fencing is getting much tougher. I can't handle a 330' roll only 100', so I get it 5' high. I get posts and fence from the Co-Op in town, much cheaper than TSC that is 45mins away, town is 20.
Concrete is the less physical way to set the posts, because of the tamping involved, and is faster for the same reason. I've never said it before, but the fencing I have put up is hand stretched, so it isn't "Ping" tight. Tho the boards I have put between posts does tighten it up some and lends support, too. I used them because of the slope of the land to take the slack up of the fence not being grounded. Really not thrilled with the height of the panels anyway, but Easy makes it "Swallow" much better.


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## Bruce (Jan 18, 2017)

Yep easy has it's benefits! That is why I have the cattle panels on the south line. WAY too many braced wood posts needed to go around that tree and the giant rocks with stretched fence.


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## babsbag (Jan 18, 2017)

Bruce said:


> As you know, I am unimpressed with the Wedge-Locs and surely wouldn't trust them in even a semi-permanent fence. TSC isn't carrying them anymore so they weren't good sellers.



Somehow I missed your experience with them. I have them in one corner, been there for 8 years, stretched tight in two directions and no problems.


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## farmerjan (Jan 18, 2017)

Have you called anyone to price what it would cost to fence this area?  It might not be as "expensive as you think"  if you were to add up all the costs of your own material;  posts, wire, braces etc and so on.  Around here in Va the going rate is about $3.50 a foot.  That's everything, done completed.  I realize that alot of the people on here are retired, and didn't win the lottery lately, and/or like me, have  some limiting factors like my ankle/knee joint difficulties.  The cattle panels are nice especially for short distances where stretching is a pain or next to impossible or would require too many posts/braces to make it practical.  And the added extra is that it is easily removed for a gateway or something else.  Regular cattle panels will have openings too big to keep the chickens in.  The "combination" panels have smaller openings on the bottom but still will let chicks and small chickens through.These are both in the 4 ft height.  Then there are hog panels that are 37 or 39" high and the horizontals are a bit closer together but chickens will definitely got over.  The ones with the smaller openings are nice but yes, much more expensive.

I am all for doing things yourself.  But I no longer can do the fencing like I did even 5 years ago.  If my son can't do it, I will have anything done that I need done, and figure out a way to pay for it.  I really think you ought to at least get someone out to look at it and get an estimate.  Then you will know what you are looking at and can make a list and figure what the materials alone will cost you.  If you were to, say,  do it in cattle panels, then figure the cost of them and t-posts and clips and get a real rough estimate of the material costs.  Just as a general guideline.  There is one other BIG plus to having it done....it is done and finished in a day or two instead of it taking a week, or weeks, to do it. 

Ask at the coop if there is someone who is looking for some side work and pay by the job and you supply the materials and some help too....That way they are not dilly-dallying along like if it was an hourly job.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 18, 2017)

Sounds like a good suggestion @farmerjan , Thanks will look in to it.


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## Baymule (Jan 18, 2017)

Do you have a stretcher bar? Link on how to build your own, using a couple of 2x4's and some bolts.

http://www.louispage.com/blog/bid/63632/How-To-Pull-Your-Fence-To-Get-It-Tight

We fenced our place in the 2"x4"x48" non climb horse wire. It keeps all our animals IN and everybody else's OUT. There is goat and sheep wire, but I have read on here that Nigerian Dwarf kids can go through it, so it stands to reason that Pygmy kids could definitely go through it.


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## Bruce (Jan 19, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Somehow I missed your experience with them. I have them in one corner, been there for 8 years, stretched tight in two directions and no problems.


My problem could be that I could NOT get the corner and first 2 sides posts in line. Damn rocks and concrete buried shallow by previous owner right where I needed to put the fence. 

Some 'rocks' are just too big to remove without serious hydraulic equipment. As such the T-Post braces angle off some (to the inside) and the 60 degree clips don't like to stay in. It would take little pressure pulling the corner post out to drop the braces. In fact I have twice found the one on the east side on the ground. 

@farmerjan If fence installed is $3.50/foot with 5' horse fence that would be a good deal. A roll of the fence (200') at TSC would be half that then you add in all the T-posts. How many H-braces and gates would that include or are those "adders"?

Clips are free when you buy T-Posts at TSC. In fact so many people either forget them or don't take them that I've been given entire bags of "25/bag" bags.


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## babsbag (Jan 19, 2017)

Baymule said:


> I have read on here that Nigerian Dwarf kids can go through it, so it stands to reason that Pygmy kids could definitely go through it.



I have 4x4 squares in my kidding pens and my mini goats can't get through all of the way but they do get their heads in and think that they are stuck. But my minis are a little bigger than Pygmies. I have sheep and goat fencing on one property line and a hot wire so no goats get near it. I have had Jack rabbits get stuck and die in 4x4 and I would prefer to just keep them out altogether.  2x4 horse fencing is the best, just not the best for the pocket book.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 19, 2017)

So, I think I have settled the issue in my mind, anyway. I'm thinking of putting up the more traditional fence on the boundary lines, and use cattle panels inside around the garden area. Also, to use them to section off different areas for the poultry, I can always wire some poultry wire to the bottom of the panels. It does tend to rust and collapse before too long a time and can be easily replaced with not much effort. This will give flexability within the borders and the materials will be handy if an emergency repair is needed because of a fallen tree or limb that is as large as most trees that are on the oaks around here. This will save some time and physical labor, and allow for flexability for any future plans. Any thoughts about this set-up?


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## babsbag (Jan 19, 2017)

I use poultry wire on panels and it works out ok. I use the plastic stuff and attach it with small UV resistant zip ties. 3 years and still looks the same as it did the day I put it on.  Put it on before you install the panels and you can do it on a saw horses and not have to lean over.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 19, 2017)

I appreciate that "Tip" @babsbag , I will definitely file that one away in the memory "Bank". This back and legs will Appreciate a break. I already have some rolls of 3' poultry wire Mom had, brand new so, it will be nice to add her to the Place too. Especially the garden, because it was her Favorite place....except for the pond.


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## farmerjan (Jan 19, 2017)

@Bruce  the $3.50 ft was for standard woven wire (field) fence not the horse fence.  Don't know what that would be.  I should have been more specific.  I was trying to give CB777 a little idea of comparison.  Had a guy recently that told my son that he would do the work for $1.00 ft if we bought all the materials, since he was slow at the time and needed some work to keep his help employed.  Sometimes there are guys that do that sort of stuff if they are not booked up, and according to the time of year.  It wasn't a bad deal but we had already put in most of the posts the previous weekend so not a great deal under those conditions.  Now if the posts weren't in, yeah it would have been worth it. We had all the stuff bought and had laid the posts out already and they had been there for about 2-3 months and we had never had the time to do it.  Then Michael got  some help and they just drove posts one Saturday.  We would like to get it finished so we can let the cattle have this half of the 50 acre field to graze off the growth from all summer.  It would really cut down on the hay for these 35 cow/calf pairs for the next couple weeks if we don't get any real deep snow.  The 4 " we got 2 weeks ago was gone the following week, after temps warmed up into the 40's and now are 40's nights and hit 60 today.  Crazy.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 1, 2017)

So, another inexperienced question to ask, as another step is taken towards the fence installation....what determines whether or not an "X" is made between posts with a brace post in-between? Also, if an "X" is not required, then which side of the diagonal is up? I have no clue of these determining factors and appreciate the guidance.


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## greybeard (Mar 1, 2017)

Depends on the circumstances regarding pressure on the fence wires, whether barbed wire or woven/knotted wire.
I use 2 (an x) brace wire where a gate is in the middle of a fence, putting the X only on the hinge side, especially if the gate is just latched with a chain and the end of the gate is not supported. If the following type latch mechanism is used, (or something similar) where the weight of the closed gate is supported by the latch, then the X is not required as much.
http://www.hooverfence.com/_images/heavy-duty-two-way-lockable-gate-latch-GL22P.jpg

The other place I use an X brace wire is in the middle of a fence that gets pressure from both sides of the 'H', other than just from the fence wire.  Along a forest where a big limb may fall on the wire, on a fence that may see frequent pressure from feral hogs trying to run thru it and (in my case) where flood water may flow thru the fence carrying debris that builds up against the wire. In West Texas I did the X because of tumbleweeds piling up along the fences. They don't weigh much, but catch a lot of wind, and the wind was always blowing out there.


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## Bruce (Mar 1, 2017)

Yep, if there is stretched fence and a gate hinged on the H brace, put in the X. The one going from the top of the gate post to the bottom of the brace post is for gate support. Visualize the gate trying to pull the top of the post away from the brace and the wire pulling it back to the base of the brace post. It is also pushing the brace itself against the upper part of the brace post. The wire going from the top of the brace post to the bottom of the gate post is for fence support. The tight fence is pulling the gate post toward the fence line and you need to counteract that by pushing the top of the gate post away from the fence line. That second wire pushes the brace against the gate post for that purpose.

Now if there is no gate, like on a strike post, you need only brace against the fence pull so you only need 1 brace wire ... or use a floating brace and save a hole and a post. As @greybeard said IF the pin of the gate in the latch he showed is putting weight on the strike post part, there is less stress on the hinge post. However, I prefer to have my gate free swinging (another reason to have bolt hooks long enough to adjust) so there isn't gate weight on the strike post. 

I suppose in a perfect world you could scientifically calculate the forces such that the weight of the closed gate pulls the hinge side post with a force equal to that applied by the fence in the other direction then you wouldn't need a brace at all. Of course this would work only until you open the gate and the fence pulls back on the post while the weight of the gate pulls it sideways  Maybe better to stick to the X wired H brace!


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

I have some cattle panels - same size as you were suggesting. My little pygmy goat can crawl through them. I had to put up the horse wire fencing to keep him in, and even that didn't work all that well. 

Ideas for making it easier if you decide to put up barb wire, from someone who has done literally miles of that crap.
Get a come-along to stretch it, easier than the traditional fence stretchers and safer (you should see what happens if a fence stretcher lets go!) spool it out with a broom handle from the back of a truck. Takes 2 people, one to drive and one to hold the spool, and drive slowly (think granny gear) but it goes a lot faster. Rent a gas pounder if you can't physically pound in T posts. You can get away with only digging holes for wood posts on corners (and can rent an auger if digging isn't going to happen too) and if you bury them deep enough, as someone else said, you shouldn't need cement. Railroad ties and electrical poles are fantastic for corner posts, and cheap - they are also treated so they last quite awhile.


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> So, I think I have settled the issue in my mind, anyway. I'm thinking of putting up the more traditional fence on the boundary lines, and use cattle panels inside around the garden area. Also, to use them to section off different areas for the poultry, I can always wire some poultry wire to the bottom of the panels. It does tend to rust and collapse before too long a time and can be easily replaced with not much effort. This will give flexability within the borders and the materials will be handy if an emergency repair is needed because of a fallen tree or limb that is as large as most trees that are on the oaks around here. This will save some time and physical labor, and allow for flexability for any future plans. Any thoughts about this set-up?



You won't be keeping the chickens out of your garden with that setup, even with poultry wire at the bottom of your panels.  They will hop up to the top of your panels and posts as easily as they do their own roosts and hop down on the other side.  

Your best bet for keeping chickens out of the garden with that setup is to use a softer fencing(deer netting works great) extending over the top of the harder fencing and posts by at least 6-8 in., so that the chickens cannot find a landing spot there.  Even on the gates.  

It's easy to install deer netting to cattle panels and t posts via zip ties.  To wooden fence posts via staples.  To extend past these surfaces is fairly easy if you just use your noggin.  For my CP gates on the garden I take out all but the edge wires of the top line of the CP and zip tie the netting to that area tautly.  For my wooden posts, I just attached a slender rod of wood to each fence post and stapled the netting to those, blocking all access to the top of the posts.  

I've seen chickens fly to the top of poultry wire for no longer than it takes to hop over, so I don't know if the chicken wire will offer the same "too soft landing" as the plastic mesh.  

Your best bet for the garden area is 2x2 woven or welded wire fencing cut into manageable lengths for your physical abilities.  You can then utilize it much like the CP but without all the worry about unwieldy rolls to stretch.  Then top that fence with the suggested soft landing...this can even be accomplished with tightly stretched wire about 6-8 inches above your wire fencing.  

This type of fence will keep out the chickens, rabbits, and groundhogs too if properly pinned to a garden perimeter such as landscaping timbers or something similar.  If you don't have a dog on patrol around that garden at all times, you'll be needing that.  

It's also cheaper than CPs and will last a good long time for you.  I made gates out of CP into the garden..it makes for great gates there but one still has to provide that soft landing on the gates.


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## greybeard (Mar 1, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I suppose in a perfect world you could scientifically calculate the forces such that the weight of the closed gate pulls the hinge side post with a force equal to that applied by the fence in the other direction then you wouldn't need a brace at all.



Till some yahoo decides to climb over the gate...


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 1, 2017)

I do thank All for the input and suggestions. This may seem 2nd nature to most, but it has really been a tremendous Learning experience for me...in that I'm trying to not only do mostly right with this project, but also to gain understanding. I truly have learned a whole bunch.
@AClark I'm using 2"x4"x5' woven wire, I grew up disliking barbed wire and will never have big enough animals to justify using it in my mind. With the waning physical abilities, I won't get any that I can't handle any more....just admire others like yours. @Beekissed my Mom used to use string above a fence if the chickens were getting out, kinda like a clothesline, I have used the poultry wire and allow it to sag. It works okay like that, and since they have gotten older and heavier they don't get very high off the ground. The CP is 50" tall so that's 4' and the garden is inside the 2"x4"x5' woven wire. The strength of the CP is needed to keep the goats out of the garden and grapevine/blackberry area. They just love to eat them and the strawberries too. 
The animals will be able to circle the garden, so any weeds, grass or old plant material can be easily tossed out for them to peck or browse on.


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

One thing my parents do for their horses is string 4 rows of smooth wire, and 1 top row of barbed wire so the horses respect the fence. Smooth wire is much easier to work with.
Using a truck to unroll is the way to go if you have a lot of area though. Barbed wire is a pain, as it doesn't always unroll nicely and snags. We put my parents fence back up last summer and I yanked DH out of the bed of the truck when it snagged. He tried to hold it but it pulled him right off the truck, doing about 2 MPH and I couldn't stop fast enough. 

I hear you with the physical abilities. I have so much arm damage on my left arm (and unfortunately it's my dominant) and a pinched nerve where my collar bone meets the shoulder. I've had more broken bones than I can count from being bounced off of horses and fallen on by them, getting up in the morning is a challenge with the arthritis. I have to pretty much force my butt out of bed and start moving around so it will ease up and I definitely feel it for days when we do a big job like fencing. The thing is, I just refuse to let it get the best of me. I feel that at my age I should be in better shape than this and I won't let it stop me from doing what I want to do. Mind over matter, and painkillers! 

Speaking of chicken fencing, I was looking into that plastic electric net stuff for mine. Seems like it would work and the fencing is a decent price (the charger for the fence isn't really though) anyone used that or is it a waste of time and money?


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## babsbag (Mar 1, 2017)

I use the electric net as a temporary pen and it seems to work fine.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 1, 2017)

I've never used it, but have read others claiming it worked for them....to be honest I've never seen it even. I certainly understand the painkillers too...and that reminds me that I'm due another Rx in about a wk or so...
Tho, I can't make it without the muscle relaxers, my foot, back, shoulder, and neck gets spasms that are unbearable and it is the only thing that will ease it some. I have pinched nerves in my right elbow, shoulder, and neck.


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

I use Gabapentin to ease up the nerve pain, it's an off label use but it does seem to work. My doc was looking at maybe Lyrica but I'm not sure about it yet. It's basically the only way I can sleep halfway comfortable without waking up to burning nerves when I bend my elbow. 

Do you have a link to the wire you're using? I'm trying to picture it, I think it's similar to the horse wire I get, but it's only 4' tall.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

My brother uses Gabapentin for a bad shoulder. Works great, he says. You are all tougher than me, doing all this fencing with all that pain! My DH does most of it. Not because I don't want to, because every time I try I "mess it up" lol


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> My brother uses Gabapentin for a bad shoulder. Works great, he says. You are all tougher than me, doing all this fencing with all that pain! My DH does most of it. Not because I don't want to, because every time I try I "mess it up" lol


Dh definitely helps me. I try to get him to slow down a bit as he had back surgery less than a year ago. We're both beat up, lol.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 1, 2017)

I don't have a pic of it, but it is Redbrand wire. I haven't gotten that far yet to get a roll....the CoOp has it for $70-75/100' roll just like the welded wire, but woven or knotted.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

DH grew up on a horse farm. His mother and sister (who still has horses) are beat up pretty badly from years of riding, training, etc. I think he's happy to be a relatively strong and healthy goat, pig and poultry farmer lol!


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

I think woven probably is sturdier than the welded. The horses are pure hell on the welded wire.

DH grew up on a small farm, chickens, pigs, etc. He's never been around horses much, but he really adores them. The only thing he's broken was an ankle. I've broken both arms, a leg, ankle, hip, ribs, and collar bone. If you ride horses long enough, accidents happen.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 1, 2017)

AClark said:


> I use Gabapentin to ease up the nerve pain, it's an off label use but it does seem to work. My doc was looking at maybe Lyrica but I'm not sure about it yet. It's basically the only way I can sleep halfway comfortable without waking up to burning nerves when I bend my elbow.
> 
> Do you have a link to the wire you're using? I'm trying to picture it, I think it's similar to the horse wire I get, but it's only 4' tall.


Mine are valium and demerol, I used to take flexeril, but changed it to valium.


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

I don't find muscle relaxers to help at all, I have a bottle of Baclofen from when I tweaked my back last year and they didn't help. I had flexeril first but they didn't really do anything for it. 

Now demorol, that's a biggie. I just get "ranger candy" 800 mg ibuprofens.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 1, 2017)

My left knee is so messed up and deformed from arthritis and with the pinched nerves and left foot, when I go to the Doc he just asks what I want. I don't want more than I need, and I make 30 pills last for 90 days, so he knows I'm not jerking him around, too. I do go thru a box of 50 green BCs about every 2wks.


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## Latestarter (Mar 1, 2017)

Aint we just a bunch of pill poppers huh? I had my doc write a scrip for oxycodone. 20 pills and I still have some after ~6 months. Have to be in pretty bad pain to take them and it's mostly when the arthritis in the hand and wrist is so bad I can't use it. The doc understands I'm not a druggie and if I need them, I really need them. Flexiril doesn't do squat for me. Was prescribed it for back muscle spasms and it was worthless. I now have cyclobenzaprine (muscle relaxer) and 1 makes me tired, 2 will put me out with day after withdrawal (tired).  That's quite a lot of BC powder Country... Aren't you worried about gastric damage?


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 2, 2017)

Heck LS I have so much I'm dealing with now, one more thing doesn't really make a difference. It helps me to stay on top of the daily pain and have to take aspirin for heart each day anyway. Mom always said that I had an Iron stomach. I keep telling the Doc that I have to die of something, with so many different things biting at my A**, sooner or later one of them will get a Bite....
But, it just ain't in me to do nothing, and I've stared "Death" in the face many times in life and ain't scared of it either. I don't know anything different as life, so I just take it as it comes and "Roll with the Punches".


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 2, 2017)

@Latestarter , @AClark here is a pic of my knee...just so ya know I ain't just "Whistlin Dixie"....
. This is everday normal, with aboug 30% range of motion....


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 2, 2017)

Ouchie!


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## Bruce (Mar 2, 2017)

Hey @CntryBoy777 , no getting the ladies all excited by baring your leg!!


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 2, 2017)

Something that grotesque wouldn't get any "Excited" for anything other than a Pain pill....


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## Latestarter (Mar 2, 2017)

Ummm yeah... If you were closer I'd offer you one on mine (pain pills) that looks quite painful... I was addicted to cigarettes for over 40 years... Stopped in September of 2010 and now I wonder why I ever smoked to begin with. No longer have "cravings" but have the occasional instances when I think to myself "right about now I would have been lighting up". I don't have any intention of getting addicted to pain pills. I have to be in some pretty decent pain before I'll even consider taking one.


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## babsbag (Mar 3, 2017)

The last time I took a pain pill other than aspirin was probably 20 years ago at which time I found out that I was allergic to codeine.  The last time I 'needed' pain medication I had torn the meniscus in my knee and the doctor sent me home with codeine. I told him I was allergic and he told me to take Benadryl with it. Seriously???? !!!!!  I am home alone more often than not, I live in the country where emergency help is probably 30 minutes away, if they find me all, and he says, "itching is normal...take Benadryl". The full bottle is still in my drawer.


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## Bruce (Mar 3, 2017)

Sounds like your cig addiction was habit based rather than chemical @Latestarter I seriously doubt I would get addicted to pain pills because I just HATE the way they move my brain outside my body. It is very sad how many people do though.

Now back to @CntryBoy777's topic:
How are those brace wires coming Fred??


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 3, 2017)

Looking to get started a little later today on the bracing.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 3, 2017)

@Bruce this is a pic of the wire, it is barbLess wire, but is 2strands that are twisted like barbed wire. However, barbed wire is the most commonly used for bracing here.


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## AClark (Mar 3, 2017)

Yikes! That looks like my ex husbands knee, he had had 3 knee surgeries on it. Definitely painful!


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## Bruce (Mar 3, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> View attachment 28723 @Bruce this is a pic of the wire, it is barbLess wire, but is 2strands that are twisted like barbed wire. However, barbed wire is the most commonly used for bracing here.



OK that would be hard to use with a strainer. No one sells real brace wire? Or is this stuff just cheaper? I guess you have no way to compare but I wonder how it "slides" around the post compared to single strand brace wire when being tightened. Barbs wouldn't slide at all once the barbs lodge into the post. Sounds like a lot of work for no good reason.


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## Latestarter (Mar 3, 2017)

If you're twisting the wire, I shouldn't think the wire would need to slide around the post much at all... The tightening would be as a result of slack being taken up by the twist between the posts. The wire obviously does need to move with a strainer.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 3, 2017)

Not sure about the price @Bruce , this was $60 for a spool of over 1300'. I think it will do fine with the conduit twist rods. May be out of commission for a couple of days tho, after the goat walk today I was inside the pen and the Boys were pushing on each other, and Comet inadvertently hit the back of my messed up knee. Didn't hit it very hard, but didn't have to...pain pill time....


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## Bruce (Mar 3, 2017)

@CntryBoy777 is down for a nap!  Sorry the goat got you no matter that it wasn't intentional. 

@greybeard posted on your journal about a galvanized rod you can get for cheap, probably better than conduit for twisting.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 3, 2017)

Yeh, but got the conduit this morning 8 sticks for $23...may look to replace them in the future, but they will do for now. Ya know how it is, when ya need something ya can't Find it and when ya don't ya see it everywhere. So, going to focus on getting it done...for now anyway. I do have another issue to ask advice with, but will be later tonite or tomorrow. First, I have to figure out how to ask it so that it makes sense.


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## Bruce (Mar 3, 2017)

Or buy it now, figuring you are going to need it later and when later comes, can't find it!


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## greybeard (Mar 5, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> View attachment 28723 @Bruce this is a pic of the wire, it is barbLess wire, but is 2strands that are twisted like barbed wire. However, barbed wire is the most commonly used for bracing here.



Do you know the name of the plants in that pic--the ones with the little pale blue flowers?


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 5, 2017)

We call them hen-bit here, but @Bruce said it was better known as ground ivy. It is prolific here, and even the commercial fields around here that get sprayed are full of it. It dies back after it blooms, so we just don't worry about it. The goats, chickens, and ducks don't even eat it. The bees, honey and bumble, sure do like it tho.


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## greybeard (Mar 5, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> We call them hen-bit here, but @Bruce said it was better known as ground ivy. It is prolific here, and even the commercial fields around here that get sprayed are full of it. It dies back after it blooms, so we just don't worry about it. The goats, chickens, and ducks don't even eat it. The bees, honey and bumble, sure do like it tho.


Maybe, if it has pinkish flowers, it's henbit. Odd your chickens won't eat it. My sister's chickens eat every bit they can find.
If the flowers are more blue, it's another cold season plant called Creeping Charlie--it looks a lot like henbit. 
http://www.ediblewildfood.com/creeping-charlie.aspx
http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/weeds/hgic2321.html

I hate both of them--clog my lawnmower this time of year.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 6, 2017)

@greybeard ya know how it is, when growing up I was always told that and never had reason to doubt it. But, it is like a snake that has always been called a "Chicken" snake. When I got interested in snakes and had 3 as pets, I began questioning my parents about them. It wasn't until about 2008 that my Dad killed one in the hen house and brought it to me to show me. It turns out that it really is a grey rat snake. It is amusing to me how different regions have their "Slang" terms for animals, plants, and stuff. When I would tell my Mom what it really was, she'd always tell me...rather abruptly I might add...that is "What" she knew it as and since her childhood, and she had no intention of learning anything new....
I'd tell her that I wasn't saying she was wrong, just clarifying what it really was....to which she would snap, I don't care about that, I know what it is....I'd just smile and shut-up.


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## Bruce (Mar 7, 2017)

Yep we have Creeping Charlie with purple flowers. But it grows really low, if one didn't mind having only that it would almost be a no-mow "lawn". I don't think the chickens eat it and here, unlike in MS, it doesn't die back. I guess because we don't get as hot.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 7, 2017)

We have plenty of both, along with purslane, chickweed, and a world of others that I've always have seen, but never have known the names of, or which name goes to which plant.


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## Bruce (Mar 7, 2017)

Actually me too Fred. I never bothered to consider what that invasive ground cover was called until someone on another forum posted a picture and asked what it was. Um, no idea! So I used google and somehow found it. I think I started by looking just for groundcover until I spotted a picture of the plant I recognized.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 24, 2017)

Haven't seen ya around much lately @greybeard , ya doing alright?....just missin' ya and wondering about ya...


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## CntryBoy777 (Apr 27, 2017)

I'm going to complete this thread, I think that it could help others, and even tho I have mainly posted this progress on my Journal page, most looking for fencing help and info probably won't search for it there. Not to mention my phone has a bunch of pics on it and I need to put them on the computer to make room for more. I sure wish I had the computer to post with, but I don't.
Since it has been a while and we got a bit off of fencing, in order to "Refresh"....the main question was about searching for viable, affordable, and easy fencing options. I had decided against the cattle panels, as cost was not affordable for me. I decided to go the more traditional route. I really can't exolain why, but I prefer a boundary fence that is 5' high. This does limit one to available materials, and working with a slim budget makes it even tougher. This area is to be used by goats, chickens, and ducks...nothing big or powerful as cattle, horses, or pigs. I'm also handcuffed by physical ability and very little in the way of mechanized assistance. So, the materials that were decided on was 5"x8' posts, 4"x7' brace posts, a barbless dbl-stranded twisted wire as brace wire, and 2"x4"x5' welded wire fencing.
I had priced the fencing several times at the CoOp and was assured that it was woven wire....so, I was confident in the fact that I was going to put 2"x4"x5' woven wire up, which I most certainly would have preferred. However, it wasn't until much later that I found out that this guy didn't know the difference between welded wire and woven wire. It was late in the project and I would have to have the other wire shipped in at a substantial cost, so I fumed a bit and took the welded wire. The next post will begin to include some pics, but this is just to get it back on track.


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## CntryBoy777 (Apr 27, 2017)

....This is the first line of posts placed. This area butts up...but, isn't joined to the existing goat pen in the foreground....it will be kept separate, for quarentine or any other need for separation. If ya look close at the handles of the diggers, ya will see a couple of gray lines across the handles. This is something I learned yrs ago and do each time I have multiple holes to dig. Measure from the tip of the metal pcs forming the "Clam", up tbe handle to the desired depth of hole and place a piece of duct tape to each handle....that way ya don't spe d time meashri g each hole se eral times to get the same depth. Ya just dig til the tape is even with the ground. The 2 sides of the area and the backline are fairly straight and somewhat level as fields go, but the frontline is a bit awkward and not very level, with multiple elevation changes. So, it will be very challenging for me. I certainly am not an "Expert", but rely on very good input from those that are. These next 2 pics are of the backline and the other side....  ...and...  ....The intentions at the time were to set these in concrete, however the budget didn't allow for that and I trusted some of the advice that was given and tamped them in. It was definitely some laborous work, but other than some blisters and sore, stiff muscles it went pretty good. Let me say here, that the $35 spent at Lowe's for the tamping tool...16lb....was worth every penny, and "Kudos" for @greybeard  and @Mike CHS  for recommending it to me.
I did fudge some on the holes, since I am putting up 5' fence, I only dug 30" deep and I didn't dig the hole the same width top to bottom. What I did was bell the bottom of the hole, and used the cutting end of the tamping tool to scrape the sides down into the bottom, so that the tamping head could pound it and pack it tightly around it. This saved having to scrape more of the hole dirt in, becajse I just scraped it down. During this process we had several rains, and each time I checked all 37 holes and never had to re-tamp a single one. I'll pickup here next time.


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## greybeard (Apr 28, 2017)

The rain usually helps any loose soil settle down good around the post. 
I never scrimp on depth of corner posts or end posts, and usually not on line posts. 
One I did when I was building the fence between my brother's place and mine. posthole diggers are 5' tall end to end. Nasty old clay..


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## Latestarter (Apr 28, 2017)

Dang Greybeard... sucker for punishment there.


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## greybeard (Apr 28, 2017)

That one will never move tho


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## Bruce (Apr 29, 2017)

I don't know how I would get a hole that deep even without rocks.


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## CntryBoy777 (Apr 29, 2017)

I dug the hole for the meter pole here at the trailer, I had to put a third of the pole in the ground and it was even with the tips of the handles on a 6' digger. The only hole I ever dug that deep. I was driving trucks at the time, so I put it higher than the recommended minimum of 13' above ground.


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## greybeard (Apr 29, 2017)

no sense digging just 1/2 a hole guys..corners are the life of your fence. 
There are some big posts I've put in at just 3-3 1/2' deep when the ground was hard as a hooker's heart, but most by far are 4' deep or better. Ideally, I want nearly as much in the ground as I have wire height, but I have to consider the type livestock I have, which is brahma influenced cattle.


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## Latestarter (Apr 29, 2017)

Where do you get your posts from and what length do you use? An 8' post sunk 5 feet would only leave 3' above for wire? I need at least 5 feet above ground level. Right now the fencing being done is only for goats/sheep. However, when I get to the front pasture, that will be for steers, but I doubt they'll be Brahma influenced...


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## greybeard (Apr 29, 2017)

About 1/2 of the crossties I got in a big container load were 9' long. But my preference is to use cut up utility poles.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 4, 2017)

These are of the front of this area, it is somewhat "V" shape

  ..this post in the foreground is the end post of the line, angling back to the left of the cedar tree. The pic is taken standing in the 4' gate. The post seen is the gate post. The other end, looks like this...  ...this is going to be a corner of the "Quack Shack" yard, but will get back to this area after the other is fenced. I'm just going to hand tighten some welded wire from the corner post to the existing corner post of the temporary yard. This area will not be used by goats, just ducks and chickens.
This is the other line of the "V" .... ...This is the strike post of the gate and it angles over past the blue tubs, to the trees in this pic, and will end...unattached to the existing corner of the goat yard. What I'm actually doing is replacing the 25+ yr old, rotting fence and posts by engulfing them into a bigger border fenced area. This is only phase 1 of a major overhaul.
The holes are all dug, and the posts are in the ground. Next come the bracing and brace wiring.


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## Bruce (May 8, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> What I'm actually doing is replacing the 25+ yr old, rotting fence and posts by engulfing them into a bigger border fenced area.


Sounds like me! Except that the rotting fence I am "replacing" by enclosing a larger area probably isn't even 15 years old.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 16, 2017)

I didn't get pics of the actual notching of the posts, but I used a chainsaw to accomplish it. The brace post should be 75% of the fence height, which in my case was 45". Since I was working by myself, I tapped in a fence staple at the height on one post, propped up an end of the brace post on the staple and put the level on top of the brace, raised it to level and marked the other end. Then I cut the 2 notches, put one end in the notch held the brace up and marked to cut to correct length, set the post in the notches and used 4" deck screws toenailed to hold in place.
I used a double-stranded twisted wire as the brace wire, and metal electrical conduit for the twist rods cut to 2' in length. There were 40 brace wires, and the conduit cost me $23 for 8 sticks. They seemed to work pretty well, however if I were to do it over again, I would make sure they all twisted so that the rod would be on the opposite side of the fence. It would lessen the obsticles when stretching the fence to the post. Here are some pics that show up close how I did this....    ....this is how I ended the brace wire, but then went back and twisted them together and cut them.... ....There was much learned with each step of this project, and there sure are things that I'd do a bit differently today, than I did when it was done....but, we all live and learn. The next step is the stretching of the fence. I will tell ya that I will more than likely be replacing this fence in a couple of yrs, but it will be only fence cost that I will have to be concerned with then. I do agree and understand all that others say about the welded wire, but a poor man does as he can, with what he can....til he can do better. That was stated for any others that may seek this advice in the future. Welded wire is only 14gauge wire and can be easily bent and twisted with just your fingers, so thinking it will last very long is only a foolish thought. I have some other that was brand new just 2-3yrs ago and it is starting to rust, so it is already getting weaker. I can see replacing it more sooner than later, but just hope it holds up until I can get back to it....better prepared than I am today....


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## Mike CHS (May 16, 2017)

You had a plan and stuck to it. I understand doing what the budget allows but it does get it done.  We are going to use the Gaucho high tensile woven wire for our perimeter since any lambs will be in the inside pens.  It doesn't have the spacing of Sheep & Goat fence but the price is decent (I think it was $159 for a 330' roll and it is half the weight of the other wire.  After watching our sheep and LGD with the electric netting for the last few weeks we are going to use more of that and ordered 3 more 164' rolls to rotate better.  I fed the sheep enough grass and introduced them to the new pasture that they are going to go wherever I call them to.  There can always be issues but I always have a bucket of grain on the golf cart just in case.  

We have enough fence chargers to cover anything we need to add for security.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 16, 2017)

That's the next thing I'm gonna be worrying ya about...learning about the electric stuff, but I have to stay focussed on what's at hand for now with my learning. However, I pay attention to yours and other's posts on it and it certainly has my interest....in fact, I have started looking as to what's available here...but, nothing seriously. My pocket is still "Bleeding" and with family coming, just nothing to spare. I did look at some marine batteries today.....I may hook some lights up to them.


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## Baymule (May 17, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> My pocket is still "Bleeding" and with family coming, just nothing to spare.



Fencing is expensive. But just think of all the money you are saving by doing it all yourself. We've been here 2 1/2 years and are now _finally_ finishing the south property line fence. We are about 300' away from being fully enclosed.

17 acres about a mile from us sold a couple months ago. A bulldozer went down the property lines and cut trails through the woods. Then a fence went up-in 2 days!!! The pipe entry took a little longer.......but TWO DAYS?


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## CntryBoy777 (May 17, 2017)

Ya know Bay, if we had that kind of $$ ours would've been done in 2 days too. However, I can assure ya, that we know our land Much better than they do theirs....
....and I can take ya to places of my fence that has Blood DNA all over it....Mine. I bet they can't do that.


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## Baymule (May 17, 2017)

I'm with you on that one. Our fence isn't perfect, but we have worked hard on it and we're proud of it. Today, BJ was plumb tuckered out, so I made him quit. Our neighbor, Robert and I finished up. Robert is a blessing to us, he does the heavy stuff that we can't do.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 17, 2017)

I wish I had one like that....I can't even hire one to show up. I guess it just forces me to prove to myself that I still can do more than I think I should.
The Doc said something to me this past wk when I was there about what I was doing, he said that I shouldn't push it....I told him that I'd figured that I'd rather die digging a post hole, than lying flat on my back waiting for a minimum wage worker to change my diaper, bathe me, feed me, and change my sheets....he had to Agree....


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## CntryBoy777 (May 17, 2017)

When I get over that way @Baymule , we'll have a "Ribbon Cutting" to celebrate both of our accomplishments. I know I'll be ready to Shout and dance a jig....maybe BJ can put on a concert for the Bash....


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## greybeard (May 18, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Fencing is expensive. But just think of all the money you are saving by doing it all yourself. We've been here 2 1/2 years and are now _finally_ finishing the south property line fence. We are about 300' away from being fully enclosed.
> 
> 17 acres about a mile from us sold a couple months ago. A bulldozer went down the property lines and cut trails through the woods. Then a fence went up-in 2 days!!! The pipe entry took a little longer.......but TWO DAYS?


Cost of fencing (per foot)  is generally about the same, regardless of how long it takes. Not a lot of difference in total outlay, whether it is spent a little at a time as budgets permit, or all at once. I built all mine myself, to save money to spend elsewhere or have if an emergency came up. If I had it to do over again, I would pay someone else to do it.
Money can be re-acquired. Time, cannot.


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## Baymule (May 20, 2017)

We had the materials here, caught the wire on sale, calculated how many we'd need and took the trailer! We did have to go buy some more T-posts as it seems I keep using them on various projects around here......


Here's your concert....scroll to the second record and click on "Destroyed" in blue letters. 

http://www.sirshambling.com/articles/quinvy_4/index.php


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## Bruce (May 22, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Fencing is expensive. But just think of all the money you are saving by doing it all yourself. We've been here 2 1/2 years and are now _finally_ finishing the south property line fence. We are about 300' away from being fully enclosed.
> 
> 17 acres about a mile from us sold a couple months ago. A bulldozer went down the property lines and cut trails through the woods. Then a fence went up-in 2 days!!! The pipe entry took a little longer.......but TWO DAYS?


Money to hire a fencing company with a big crew gets it done in 2 days 
Hopefully they won't find any "get it done FAST shortcuts" were taken a couple of years down the line.


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## greybeard (May 22, 2017)

Crew size is not usually the determining factor--equipment they bring to the jobsite is.
When you can simultaneously unroll 5 strands of wire from the back of the machine ( or field fence from a 500' roll) while driving posts from the front of the same machine, and stretch the wire(s) without taking the roll off the machine while a single guy follows along driving staples or installing ties pneumatically  it makes a big difference in time.
Equipment saves time and $$. More personell costs the operation more $$, which costs the customer more $$. All the labor cost + labor admin cost for that job gets charged back to the customer, but only a fraction of the cost of the equipment gets charged to any one customer--the initial equipment purchase cost is spread out to dozens or hundreds of customers over the life of the machine. 
It is all a cumulative thing. At or near the end of your life, which one will you have more of? Time ..or money?

_"Time is the eternal river. I suggest not trying to swim upstream"_


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## Mike CHS (May 22, 2017)

Personally I intend to still have money at the end of my life and there will be more of it if I don't hire out things I can do myself. Building fence is part of what we planned to do on our little place at this time in our lives.  We got an estimate to do our 1st paddock and it came in at $4500 for less than 1900'.  We spent $2200 for materials to fence in 3000' and spent 70 hours of our time to do it.  I hired the neighbors son for a total of 15 hours at $12 an hour.  There is no way I could justify hiring out fencing when I can perfectly well do it myself.

I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of hiring it done but I have better uses for our $ and our labor was something we chose to give in building our place.


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## greybeard (May 22, 2017)

Mike CHS said:


> Personally I intend to still have money at the end of my life and there will be more of it if I don't hire out things I can do myself.


_At or near the end of your life, which one will you have more of? Time ..or money?_

I wish someone had presented me with that very simple and direct question when I was younger. 
I'm at that point now. I and my wife wish I had the time back instead of the $$ in the bank. 
$$ can be recouped and re-acquired--time cannot. 

You can beat Mother Nature to standstill if you have enough money to throw at her, but she'll eventually (and always) get tired of that game and call in her old ally Father Time. 
Throwing money at a clock is a futile endeavor.


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## Bruce (May 22, 2017)

Ah but the unanswerable question is "how long will I live?" How much money you need later in life depends on the answer to that question and getting more money in later years ISN'T so easy. 

My mother and step mother both died a few months shy of their 75th birthdays. My stepfather probably about the same. My mother's sister made 92 mostly in good health. Dad is doing well and will be 89 in October, his brother is 83 and in good health. Their father died 2 weeks shy of his 96th B-day. My wife's mother is doing well at 84, her father turned 92 in March, doing fine. His sister will be 100 in October and still drives in the daytime. Their oldest sister made 96, oldest brother only 91, next brother 97.

So, how much money do I need to not live in poverty in my later years?? Your guess is as good as mine and that is why I would rather die with some money in the bank. However your point is not lost on me, time is gone with every tick of the clock and there needs to be a balance between what we do with our time and our money.


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## Red the butcher (May 22, 2017)

So you don't need fancy t post with cattle panels although they are the easiest to pound in. Most of my post are small trees that i debarked. I go every 8 feet and just use wire to attach them to the post. And i just use fencing wire to put the panels together. It holds 300 pound hogs in just fine.


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## Mike CHS (May 22, 2017)

I think we completely hijacked @CntryBoy777 thread but we aren't talking about the same things.  You want to save time by hiring someone, that's fine but you don't get to keep accumulating it.  I'm not worried about money so why would I want to pay someone to do something that I chose for this point in my life to do myself?

I'm not rich by any means but we planned for this phase of our life and that included putting up our own fence as that is the way we want to spend our time.  The time spent doing that isn't lost if that is how you want to spend your time.


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## greybeard (May 22, 2017)

Mike CHS said:


> I think we completely hijacked @CntryBoy777 thread but we aren't talking about the same things.  You want to save time by hiring someone, that's fine but you don't get to keep accumulating it.  I'm not worried about money so why would I want to pay someone to do something that I chose for this point in my life to do myself?
> 
> I'm not rich by any means but we planned for this phase of our life and that included putting up our own fence as that is the way we want to spend our time.  The time spent doing that isn't lost if that is how you want to spend your time.


Understood Mike. I did exactly the same thing, and for the same reason.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 24, 2017)

No worries about any "Hijack". It seems to me that my whole life dollars do not "Flow" in my direction, but "Flees". I'm not complaining, but "Life" has seemed to elude me also. I've been dealing with health issues since I was 4yrs old, and have plenty now that are "Knocking at the Door". It is like that old George Jones song that says....we are "Living and Dying" with the "Choices" that we make. When one gets on down the road, it is easy to look back and re-think things a bit, but at that "Time" in your life you were working to "Build your Dream", and hindsight is 20/20, but we are always forced "Forward", because "Life' goes on....with or without each one of us....the clock still "Ticks" and the world still "Turns"....and there has never been a human being "Powerful" enough to stop, or slow it down either. There is one constant with "Life" and that is "Death", any that refuse to face that fact are only fooling their own self.


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## Red the butcher (May 25, 2017)

Pops always told me there are 2 things you can count on in life, death and taxes.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 27, 2017)

On to the fence stretching....
 ...this is the beginning of the stretch....stripping the verticle wires so the horizontal wires can be wrapped around the post and then twisted back to itself. Of course it is always good to have some help when doing this.... ....so KiKi stepped in to help speed up the process....Not.......but despite the distractions and obsticle, the twisting began. I found it is best to wrap the bottom wire first, because the fence is moveable and can easily be lifted so the wire can slip under and during the twisting it is easier to twist it with the hog-nosed pliers. After wrapping and twisting it I would go to the top and twist down, just my preference. I don't bend for long periods of time very easily any more, it doesn't really make a difference when starting, but it does to end the pull. 
  ...this is a little tool that I came across to twist wires with and it really worked well in the spaces where there was room for it to spin, but around brace posts and brace wires it was the hog-nosed pliers that did the job. Also, this wire is 14gauge and I haven't used it on any heavier gauge wire, so unsure about the difficulties that may present. When using this welded wire, in stripping the verticles, there will always be little barbs that are left on the wires and they can present some difficulties in the twisting and also will grab, scratch, and stick you while working with it.   ...this is the completed twist. Since I tend to overkill things, there should be a minimum of 4-5 twists around the wire, but I just wound the length I had.   ...this is a different post, but it does show the finished product of starting the stretching process.
I should mention that if you are using this wire for fencing, be extra sure that the horizontal wires are on the animal side of it. This will help it to last a bit longer and keep the wear and tear off of the welds. So, to the stretching.... ...I used ratchet straps to pull this with, certainly not ideal, but it did get the job done.
  ...this is ending the stretch and in doing so ya want to begin with the middle wires and alternate from the middle out, continuing until the last 2 wires to be done are the top and bottom. If you are unsure just how much wire is needed, make sure ya have enough to reach....it is easy to clip some off before twisting, but ya can't add to it if it is short. What I did to locate the Tpost placement was to measure the space between the closest posts of the 2 "Hs" and find the middle, then I worked from that point out every 8' until the wooden post was within 10' of the last Tpost. On short spans, I divided the space into equal parts for the placements.   ...this is the completed stretch. During this whole process I learned so much, and I must remind ya that this is my very first time of installing a fence in this fashion. This procedure was used in each of the sections of the entire fencing project. I will post the finished portions in the next post, because I wouldn't be able to fit them in this post.


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## Red the butcher (May 27, 2017)

Looks great!


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## CntryBoy777 (May 27, 2017)

Here are the sections, now....          I was looking and it was pretty dark when I finished this final stretch and haven't taken a pic of it finished. This piece is going to be problematic, because of the land slope, and the water flow washes. I don't have a pic, but the bottom of the fence is about 8" off the ground in some spots. My original way of fixing it is with wood, but funds are tight, so going to attach piecs of fence to the bottom by twisting...and long enough to touch the ground. If it is too loose and can be pushed thru, I'll put some stakes in it. All in all, I think it turned out much Better than I expected. Now for the finishing touches.....but I can See the LIGHT, and it isn't a Train....


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## Mike CHS (May 27, 2017)

Now you can start doing things that you want to do and maybe not what you HAVE to do.

It does look good.


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## CntryBoy777 (May 27, 2017)

Thanks Mike you had a part in helping get to this point and I really do Appreciate it very much. I also plan to continue to ask ya questions....because, there are Plenty more projects to Tackle. So, I don't think the Thread will stop here.....


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## Red the butcher (May 28, 2017)

You running cedar for post?


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## CntryBoy777 (May 28, 2017)

Naw, just using 5" treated posts. There aren't that many sizeable cedars here, and that is just extra work that I would have to do. The task at hand is enough to keep my handicapped self more than busy....


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## Red the butcher (May 28, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> Naw, just using 5" treated posts. There aren't that many sizeable cedars here, and that is just extra work that I would have to do. The task at hand is enough to keep my handicapped self more than busy....


Hey you do what you can do right! Looks really good!


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## CntryBoy777 (May 28, 2017)

Thanks!! I appreciate that. I'm only about a yr behind schedule....


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## Red the butcher (May 28, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> Thanks!! I appreciate that. I'm only about a yr behind schedule....


Haha you and me both!


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## frustratedearthmother (May 28, 2017)

Times 3!!


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