# Just got some skinny goats



## JenniferDuBay

Hello, I've inherited some skinny goats- or at least that's what my vet says. Their rumins are healthy, to say the least! So now I have to figure out how to fatten them up. They're two la manchas, under a year, not been bred yet. Here's what I have available to me:

Coastal hay-I spent time digging, and this is the only hay that seems to be available in my area. I've called feed stores, checked craigslist, it's all only coastal.
Sweet feed
goat pellets
alfalfa pellets or cubes (if at all possible- cubes are a PITA, I'd rather not do that.)

So what should I feed, in what ratio? And does anyone have a schedule for medicines, inoculations etc I should do? I'd assume they have had nothing of what they were supposed to. Please if at all possible, help me out. These poor goats kind of fell in my lap as a last minute resort, and I'd like to do right by them.


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## Southern by choice

Welcome to BYH and congratulations on your new goats! 
I have Lamanchas and they are my favorite. Well... ONE of my favorites. 

You can use coastal hay.
As far as feed and or alfalfa pellets go slow. Too much too soon and that can cause some really sick goats.

*They should get CD & T vaccine and since you have no history repeat in 4 weeks.*

They should have a fecal run in 4-7 days as they will have a stress bloom. You want the fecal checked for parasites and cocci. Cocci is usually a kid issue but not always. Systematic deworming is not good. Deworm based on fecal analysis.

Not a fan of sweet feed. Your goat feed needs to have a Calcium to Phosphorus ratio of a minimum 2:1.

Loose minerals are a must. Manna Pro is a very good loose mineral. Sweetlix is also very good.

Depending on your region and where they have come from they may need additional supplementation.


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## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> Welcome to BYH and congratulations on your new goats!
> I have Lamanchas and they are my favorite. Well... ONE of my favorites.
> 
> You can use coastal hay.
> As far as feed and or alfalfa pellets go slow. Too much too soon and that can cause some really sick goats.
> 
> *They should get CD & T vaccine and since you have no history repeat in 4 weeks.*
> 
> They should have a fecal run in 4-7 days as they will have a stress bloom. You want the fecal checked for parasites and cocci. Cocci is usually a kid issue but not always. Systematic deworming is not good. Deworm based on fecal analysis.
> 
> Not a fan of sweet feed. Your goat feed needs to have a Calcium to Phosphorus ratio of a minimum 2:1.
> 
> Loose minerals are a must. Manna Pro is a very good loose mineral. Sweetlix is also very good.
> 
> Depending on your region and where they have come from they may need additional supplementation.



Could you give me an idea of exact food levels I should use, and a time frame for increasing them? I've never done goats- I'm not sure what going slow means, really. Sorry if I'm being a pain!


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## Southern by choice

You are not being a pain. 

Do you know what they have been on or been getting?

Don't be worried about trying to fatten them up quick... slow is better. 

Do you have any pictures? Size? Height? weight?
Something for reference?

What region are you in? The goats came from?  You don't have to be specific...


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## JenniferDuBay

I'm in Florida, that's as specific as I'm willing to get, and I have no idea what they have gotten. One of our neighbors down the street got a condemned notice on their house, and basically showed up in the middle of the night and offered me the goats, I think because I have an enclosure in my back yard. Pretty sure someone was using it for goats before I just recently moved in. I have no way of checking with them, as they've disappeared off the face of the earth as far as I'm able to check. I'll have to weigh them tomorrow, and measure. They're all bedded down right now and I don't want to set them off screaming, as they think I need to spend all night in their pen! lol Thanks for your help, by the way.


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## Southern by choice

Ok that is helpful. Certain regions will be very deficient and more prone to certain parasitic issues. 
Weights and pics would be great.

There can be a pretty big range when it comes to goats. 
I have a 3 month old that is 55 lbs and I have 6 month olds that range from 72-80 lbs and a 5 month old at 70... 

Give free choice hay 24/7. Mineral can be hand fed until you think they won't just gobble up everything you put out. Once they eat it without gorging themselves on it put the mineral out free choice.
I would start with 1 cup am and pm feed to start and see how they do. You want their poo to be berries. If tolerating this well then after 3-5 days up the feed slightly by 1/2 cup and continue at 1 1/2 cups am pm and see how they do. Calf Manna is also good to add but you have to be careful with it.
You may need some vitamins - B-complex. 
Since they are not bred they shouldn't need much feed but if they are very thin it may help get them to optimum weight.
Some feed hay and forage only some give feed as a small supplement. Much depends on hay and forage availability for region.

Were they seen by a livestock vet? Or a pet vet?

Tagging a few people as well to pipe in...

@Goat Whisperer - what do you think?
@babsbag 
@Fullhousefarm 

@Fullhousefarm  is in FL and may better advise on what kind of deficiencies etc may be in your region

BTW- First thing you want to do is buy a digital thermometer, vaseline, thermometer slipcovers, and some gloves.
NOT JOKING! This is the most important thing to have in your goat cabinet. Label GOATS ONLY and keep it somewhere you will always remember where you put it!


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## Latestarter

Greetings @JenniferDuBay   Welcome to BYH and congrats on your new family members. Sorry you had to acquire them the way you did, but I hope it all works out great for you. There's lots of good info in the various threads and a really active goat community on here. Hope when things settle down a bit that you can share a few pics of your animals. We all thrive on pics here. Make yourself at home!


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## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> Ok that is helpful. Certain regions will be very deficient and more prone to certain parasitic issues.
> Weights and pics would be great.
> 
> There can be a pretty big range when it comes to goats.
> I have a 3 month old that is 55 lbs and I have 6 month olds that range from 72-80 lbs and a 5 month old at 70...
> 
> Give free choice hay 24/7. Mineral can be hand fed until you think they won't just gobble up everything you put out. Once they eat it without gorging themselves on it put the mineral out free choice.
> I would start with 1 cup am and pm feed to start and see how they do. You want their poo to be berries. If tolerating this well then after 3-5 days up the feed slightly by 1/2 cup and continue at 1 1/2 cups am pm and see how they do. Calf Manna is also good to add but you have to be careful with it.
> You may need some vitamins - B-complex.
> Since they are not bred they shouldn't need much feed but if they are very thin it may help get them to optimum weight.
> Some feed hay and forage only some give feed as a small supplement. Much depends on hay and forage availability for region.
> 
> Were they seen by a livestock vet? Or a pet vet?
> 
> Tagging a few people as well to pipe in...
> 
> @Goat Whisperer - what do you think?
> @babsbag
> @Fullhousefarm
> 
> @Fullhousefarm  is in FL and may better advise on what kind of deficiencies etc may be in your region
> BTW- First thing you want to do is buy a digital thermometer, vaseline, thermometer slipcovers, and some gloves.
> NOT JOKING! This is the most important thing to have in your goat cabinet. Label GOATS ONLY and keep it somewhere you will always remember where you put it!



I had them seen by the local mobile vet- they're the only ones in my area that service goats at all, so it's the only choice I have. He said he has his own goats, so I would assume he's knowledgeable. If I had to guess, the heavier one is probably 50-60 lbs. I have a hard time lifting her, but I'm not too good with this sort of thing. The smaller one is maybe 30 lbs? I can lift her fairly easily. I'll buy a scale and weigh them tomorrow. I have seen both of them poop, and it looks like deer scat, so that's good. 

I tore half their pen out, to attach it to the half finished shed that was on property. I currently jury rigged the shed to put a "hay feeder" in (a tote with the side cut off, and the window through the dividing wall I jury rigged up. So they have access 24/7. It's so macguyver-esque it hurts. Then they escaped the pen. Three times, lol. Took me a while to realize they could crawl under the shed, so I blockaded that until I can go buy some wood supplies. This is the least prepared I have ever been for a pet, and I feel pretty crappy about that. I'm usually a responsible owner. I need to clean the whole pen out, it has seen use before. The goats have stripped the spare area already, there's nothing green in the pen anymore.

And as far as the feed goes- which did you say I should use for the 1 cup am and 1 cup pm? Alfalfa pellets, goat pellets, or the calf manna?

Also @Latestarter thanks for the warm welcome!


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## babsbag

In addition to the hay I would get a goat pellet type of feed for them. Purina makes one and it is usually pretty easy to find. Tractor Supply, if you have one, is a good place to find it. Manna Pro has  Goat Balancer and Calf Manna, both are good for adding some extra calories but go slow, maybe a 1/4 c. a day to start and then work up to the amount on the label. Another feed for adding calories is beet pulp, about a 1/2 a day. Black Oil Sunflower Seeds is another good choice for adding weight, about 1/4 cup a day. The thing with goats is to feed in moderation and never change their feed quickly. 

And everything else that @Southern by choice said 

Enjoy your goats and welcome to BYH from California.


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## Hens and Roos

Welcome , glad you joined us.


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## JenniferDuBay

So I have bad news. When I went out to feed the girls this morning, the smaller one was down and wouldn't get up. Called the vet, but by the time he got here, she was dead. He said even if he'd gotten here there wasn't much he could do. In the last visit he said they had worms. I had given them their first treatment for that, but he said it was probably the worms that had killed her. I wasn't aware worms could kill, I'm used to dogs coming out of mom with worms, you treat em, and everything is fine. This is awful. I'm not even a week into owning goats and I lost one. I can't help but feel responsible. (I delayed getting the medication by a day because I was waiting to get paid, the vet bill was expensive.) 

So my question is now, what do I do? I have to treat the other goat, obviously, but I know they're supposed to have a friend. Do I get another friend right away? Do I wait until she's done with the worm treatment? Should I not bring in another friend at all? And if I do get a friend, does it have to be another la mancha? My vet offered me a nigerian doe from his herd, I'm sure because I was sobbing. I'm not certain what to do in this case.


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## misfitmorgan

Welcome to BYH and x2 on everything above!


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## misfitmorgan

JenniferDuBay said:


> So I have bad news. When I went out to feed the girls this morning, the smaller one was down and wouldn't get up. Called the vet, but by the time he got here, she was dead. He said even if he'd gotten here there wasn't much he could do. In the last visit he said they had worms. I had given them their first treatment for that, but he said it was probably the worms that had killed her. I wasn't aware worms could kill, I'm used to dogs coming out of mom with worms, you treat em, and everything is fine. This is awful. I'm not even a week into owning goats and I lost one. I can't help but feel responsible. (I delayed getting the medication by a day because I was waiting to get paid, the vet bill was expensive.)
> 
> So my question is now, what do I do? I have to treat the other goat, obviously, but I know they're supposed to have a friend. Do I get another friend right away? Do I wait until she's done with the worm treatment? Should I not bring in another friend at all? And if I do get a friend, does it have to be another la mancha? My vet offered me a nigerian doe from his herd, I'm sure because I was sobbing. I'm not certain what to do in this case.



Hey dont beat yourself up it happens as sad as it is. You only just got the goats your not responsible for the death your trying to help them out. I highly doubt you waiting one day to treat the doe made a big enough difference that she died. When they are that far along filled with worms there is never a good chance of success. Goats for sure can die from worms it just takes a long time usually. Go look at the other doe's eyelids and see what color they are, if they are white you might try some redcell before giving her the wormer treatment.

No goats do no need to be the same breed, similar size is good depending on temperament. Yes goats need a buddy but if she seems ok that her friend is gone i would hold off and just work on her health..introducing a new goat to a stressed sick goat can make things worse.


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## Latestarter

So sorry you're having to deal with this first thing as a goat owner. There's nothing to feel guilty/responsible about! You didn't go and get these goats, they were thrust on you. You didn't allow the worm problem to get as bad as it did. The one day you waited I'm sure made no difference at the point they are at. The previous owner is solely responsible for the present situation. I agree with MM... no need to get a partner right now, I'd wait. Get the remaining doe through this first. (I hope she survives).


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## Goat Whisperer

I am so sorry for your loss. You can't beat yourself up over it, I know its hard but this isn't your fault  You are doing everything you can to help these goats. 

Yes, as you have learned worms can kill. Stress causes a parasite bloom, think of it like an explosion of worms within the goat. This is where you can see a goat go downhill very quickly. 
I don't think delaying worming by a day is what killed your goat. 

Both worms and cocci have been bad for many all over the country, its been a hard year for many folks 

This is why having a fecal run is so important. You need to know what types of worms or cocci you are dealing with. De-wormer does not kill cocci and vice versa. Not all dewormers are created equal either, different dewormers kill different worms. 

Do you know what wormer you were using and at what dosage?


Like the above posted said, I'd hold off on getting a buddy for now. 

It probably is worms, but you may want to keep an eye out to make sure there aren't any toxic plants that are in their pen. 
Was her belly bloated at all?


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## babsbag

This is a tough way to start, so sorry. The worms can kill them but if they are heavily infested with worms the treatment can kill them too as they will bleed out inside as the worms detach. Most people use the injectable Ivermectin and give it orally and it kills off the worms quickly...to quickly. If a goat has a heavy worm load I would inject the wormer Sub-q as it will work more slowly that way. 

Have you wormed the other doe?


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## JenniferDuBay

misfitmorgan said:


> Hey dont beat yourself up it happens as sad as it is. You only just got the goats your not responsible for the death your trying to help them out. I highly doubt you waiting one day to treat the doe made a big enough difference that she died. When they are that far along filled with worms there is never a good chance of success. Goats for sure can die from worms it just takes a long time usually. Go look at the other doe's eyelids and see what color they are, if they are white you might try some redcell before giving her the wormer treatment.
> 
> No goats do no need to be the same breed, similar size is good depending on temperament. Yes goats need a buddy but if she seems ok that her friend is gone i would hold off and just work on her health..introducing a new goat to a stressed sick goat can make things worse.



She has like pale pink eyelids. I'll get some today, we only have one car and the other half is at work. She's checking to see if they have any at her work, too. 



Goat Whisperer said:


> This is why having a fecal run is so important. You need to know what types of worms or cocci you are dealing with. De-wormer does not kill cocci and vice versa. Not all dewormers are created equal either, different dewormers kill different worms.
> 
> Do you know what wormer you were using and at what dosage?
> 
> 
> Like the above posted said, I'd hold off on getting a buddy for now.
> 
> It probably is worms, but you may want to keep an eye out to make sure there aren't any toxic plants that are in their pen.
> Was her belly bloated at all?



Sorry for more silly questions, but what is a fecal run? My vet said to do safeguard at 1.5 mL. I know most of the plants in her pen, the only questionable one for a goat was poison ivy? I was mistakenly under the impression they wouldn't eat it if it was poisonous. And the original pen before I expanded was picked completely clean, so they've only had access to the new pen for 48ish hours, not that that makes a difference. I'm not certain if her belly is bloated. With such big rumins, how can you tell?


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> This is a tough way to start, so sorry. The worms can kill them but if they are heavily infested with worms the treatment can kill them too as they will bleed out inside as the worms detach. Most people use the injectable Ivermectin and give it orally and it kills off the worms quickly...to quickly. If a goat has a heavy worm load I would inject the wormer Sub-q as it will work more slowly that way.
> 
> Have you wormed the other doe?


My vet said to use safeguard at 1.5 mL, should I stop that and get the ivermectin? I hope to god that wasn't what killed the goat. She'd had one dose.


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## Green Acres Farm

I am so sorry about your goat 

Just for the future, Florida is VERY deficient in Selenium, so BO-SE from the vet or a Selenium/Vitamin E paste from Tractor Supply would be good in the future. You may aso want to give Copper Bolus a couple of times a year. Manna Pro Minerals are what I get from Tractor Supply.


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## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> I am so sorry about your goat
> 
> Just for the future, Florida is VERY deficient in Selenium, so BO-SE from the vet or a Selenium/Vitamin E paste from Tractor Supply would be good in the future. You may aso want to give Copper Bolus a couple of times a year. Manna Pro Minerals are what I get from Tractor Supply.



I have the manna pro minerals, but she's not touching them. I've tried giving her it a couple times, but she flat out refuses- is there something up with that? Should I make them more palatable some way?

And how often do I use the paste? Could you give me a breakdown of when you dose your animals?


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## chiques chicks

Poison ivy is fine for goats. 

I'm sorry one died, not your fault. I can't add to the advice already given. It's great your vet has a herd, means they understand. Eventually, you will probably want a partner, no need to rush. Let her recover and get healthy.

You are doing the best you can, you were thrust into a tough situation.


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## JenniferDuBay

Here's the remaining goat whom we've decided to name Petunia


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## Green Acres Farm

Oh, a fecal run is where the goats poop is put into a solution that makes the worm eggs or coccidia rise to the top , then puts some of the solution under a slide and looks at it under a microscope. If there are too many eggs ( a little are okay), then you deworm for that particulate kind. 

Here is a goat website that has helped me out a lot:

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm


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## babsbag

Most likely it was not the Safeguard, that is usually a good slow wormer. You have to worm for 3-5 days in a row and then repeat in 10 days. But the dose you gave you is what is on the package and it will not work for goats. You need to use Safeguard at 3x the listed dosage...1cc/10 lbs. 

Poison Ivy is fine for the goats, they love it and eradicate it quite nicely.  

@Goat Whisperer was saying that you should have the vet do a fecal to find out what kind of worms, or did you have that done already?  If not, how did the vet know that she has worms? Not saying she doesn't...just curious. People just say get a "fecal run" as in running the test for worms. 

Just give her some time with the minerals. New home, new everything and sometimes it takes them a bit to try new stuff.


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## misfitmorgan

JenniferDuBay said:


> I have the manna pro minerals, but she's not touching them. I've tried giving her it a couple times, but she flat out refuses- is there something up with that? Should I make them more palatable some way?
> 
> And how often do I use the paste? Could you give me a breakdown of when you dose your animals?



The have a paste and a gel type and directions are on the tube. The one i have is 4ml for a adult 100lbs or more and 2ml for a kid...yours may be different so read the label. i was giving it to new  mamma does about every 2 weeks at half dose so 2ml every two weeks which i only did for 3 doses so 6 weeks. You dont want to over dose them as that can kill them.

Redcell is at TSC is a 1 gallon bottle and $25 but it will last like the rest of your life. I'm sure other feed stores would carry it and possibly in a smaller size i know they do make a 32oz size for around $10 as well but TSC around me doesnt carry it. Red Cell is an iron supplement..so if you can fine a comparative iron supplement safe for goats that should work as well.


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Most likely it was not the Safeguard, that is usually a good slow wormer. You have to worm for 3-5 days in a row and then repeat in 10 days. But the dose you gave you is what is on the package and it will not work for goats. You need to use Safeguard at 3x the listed dosage...1cc/10 lbs.
> 
> Poison Ivy is fine for the goats, they love it and eradicate it quite nicely.
> 
> @Goat Whisperer was saying that you should have the vet do a fecal to find out what kind of worms, or did you have that done already?  If not, how did the vet know that she has worms? Not saying she doesn't...just curious. People just say get a "fecal run" as in running the test for worms.
> 
> Just give her some time with the minerals. New home, new everything and sometimes it takes them a bit to try new stuff.



No, he didn't do a fecal run that I know of. He looked at their eyelid and lip, and said it was worms, told me to dose them with safeguard at 1.5 mL. Can a vet that doesn't normally deal with goats do a fecal run? If the doses are really that off and he should have done one, I'm not sure I trust this vet. My girlfriend does say they have issues with bad vets around here. When her cat was sick, she took it almost an hour away to get treated. But I thought with him having his own herd it would be okay.


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## MrsKuhn

I have nothing to add as far as advice, but I do want to say I am sorry for your loss and I hope that Petunia makes it.


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## babsbag

Any vet should be able to do the fecal, and yes, owning goats you would hope they would know how to treat them.  You should be able to collect a few of her berries in a baggie and just take them to a vet. If you do this, ask them how many worms she has and what kind, don't just let them say "yes, she has worms". 

There is a wealth of knowledge and experience on this site so ask any and all questions and we can try and help. Of course we aren't vets and we will tell you when we think you need a vet but we can also tell you things that have worked in our herds. 

You can tell by looking at the eyelids if they are anemic, but there are other worms that don't cause anemia. Also cocci won't cause anemia and doesn't always cause diarrhea either and it is treated entirely differently. 

Have you wormed Petunia?


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Any vet should be able to do the fecal, and yes, owning goats you would hope they would know how to treat them.  You should be able to collect a few of her berries in a baggie and just take them to a vet. If you do this, ask them how many worms she has and what kind, don't just let them say "yes, she has worms".
> 
> There is a wealth of knowledge and experience on this site so ask any and all questions and we can try and help. Of course we aren't vets and we will tell you when we think you need a vet but we can also tell you things that have worked in our herds.
> 
> You can tell by looking at the eyelids if they are anemic, but there are other worms that don't cause anemia. Also cocci won't cause anemia and doesn't always cause diarrhea either and it is treated entirely differently.
> 
> Have you wormed Petunia?


I did yesterday, not today yet.


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## TAH

Welcome!
I am sorry you lost her. 
I agree with others have said.


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## Latestarter

Thanks for sharing Petunia's pic. She is awfully small for a Lamancha... Is she still a kid (baby/youngun')? or possibly a mini Lamancha if an adult?

 everything works out.


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## TAH

Latestarter said:


> She is awfully small for a Lamancha... Is she still a kid (baby/youngun')? or possibly a mini Lamancha if an adult?


x2


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## misfitmorgan

i would agree she does not look full grown, mini full grown Manchas i have seen have a thicker appearance of course iver never seen mine skinny so maybe thats the difference.


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## Southern by choice

JenniferDuBay said:


> Sorry for more silly questions, but what is a fecal run? My vet said to do safeguard at 1.5 mL.



The dosage is completely incorrect and this class of dewormer needs to be given 3-5 days consecutively.



Green Acres Farm said:


> I am so sorry about your goat
> 
> Just for the future, Florida is VERY deficient in Selenium, so BO-SE from the vet or a Selenium/Vitamin E paste from Tractor Supply would be good in the future. You may aso want to give Copper Bolus a couple of times a year. Manna Pro Minerals are what I get from Tractor Supply.



Please be very careful with this. Toxicity mimics deficiency... too many throw stuff at the goat without any data. Just because an area is deficient doesn't mean you will need to give something several times a year. A very skilled herdswoman with many years experience lost 12 of her top does to copper toxicity. Because she was in a very deficient area she gave copper  2x year every year... in the end the necropsy showed HIGH copper. Again, don't just do cuz your neighbor does. We are NOT in a deficient area but I have HIGH iron and it binds the minerals... causing issues with copper.



Green Acres Farm said:


> Oh, a fecal run is where the goats poop is put into a solution that makes the worm eggs or coccidia rise to the top , then puts some of the solution under a slide and looks at it under a microscope. If there are too many eggs ( a little are okay), then you deworm for that particulate kind.
> 
> Here is a goat website that has helped me out a lot:
> 
> https://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm



Great site BUT if I remember it is a standard fecal not McMasters. There is a reason why every university uses this method.
I have several in depth articles on the Fecal method, and understanding the eyelid check (FAMACHA)
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/understanding-famacha-fecal-analysis.56/

http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/the-mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis.55/

http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis-part2.57/



Green Acres Farm said:


> Yes, a "normal" vet should be able to do a fecal run. Just don't trust their dewormer dosages.


This is not necessarily true.
I once did a consult the day after the vet was there. Vet said "goats cannot get tapeworm".  The goat had severe tape, was pooping them out, slide covered in eggs... I showed the lady my vet book (actual veterinary parasites handbook from MY vet's library) .... 

A note about REDCELL!
*Be aware that is illegal to feed any ruminate protein back to a ruminate as part of the scrapie/BSE control program.*

Blackstrap molasses is good for iron.

The goat is very small. I would suspect coccidiosis. That is why a fecal analysis is important. Dewormers won't work on cocci. I suspect the goats have both.

I am very sorry you lost the other one. Keep in mind even the best farms lose goats to cocci and parasites. Kids are highly susceptible.


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## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> Thanks for sharing Petunia's pic. She is awfully small for a Lamancha... Is she still a kid (baby/youngun')? or possibly a mini Lamancha if an adult?
> 
> everything works out.



Well the neighbors had said they got her "not that long ago" and when I asked how old they were, they said under a year, she very well could be a baby still. I'm just not sure


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## babsbag

Pictures ??? I had to click on the name Petunia... DUH. So much for being an IT director.

 BUT WAIT A MINUTE... DOES SHE HAVE EARS?  In the picture it looks like I see ears. And they are WAY too big for LaMancha ears.

There is no way she is full grown. Tiny or not still not full grown, I would say about 4-6 months. Just a babe. Definitely get that fecal and check for cocci. Poor her and poor you. Is she friendly? Do you know if she was a bottle baby?


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## babsbag

Figure that she was born in Jan. at the earliest since goats are typically seasonal breeders and that makes her 7 months at the most.  There is no way she was born last spring and I am still guessing about 4 months

Does she have horns or scars where they might have been burned?


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## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> Please be very careful with this. Toxicity mimics deficiency... too many throw stuff at the goat without any data. Just because an area is deficient doesn't mean you will need to give something several times a year. A very skilled herdswoman with many years experience lost 12 of her top does to copper toxicity. Because she was in a very deficient area she gave copper  2x year every year... in the end the necropsy showed HIGH copper. Again, don't just do cuz your neighbor does. We are NOT in a deficient area but I have HIGH iron and it binds the minerals... causing issues with copper.
> 
> 
> 
> Great site BUT if I remember it is a standard fecal not McMasters. There is a reason why every university uses this method.
> I have several in depth articles on the Fecal method, and understanding the eyelid check (FAMACHA)
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/understanding-famacha-fecal-analysis.56/
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/the-mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis.55/
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis-part2.57/
> 
> 
> This is not necessarily true.
> I once did a consult the day after the vet was there. Vet said "goats cannot get tapeworm".  The goat had severe tape, was pooping them out, slide covered in eggs... I showed the lady my vet book (actual veterinary parasites handbook from MY vet's library) ....
> 
> A note about REDCELL!
> *Be aware that is illegal to feed any ruminate protein back to a ruminate as part of the scrapie/BSE control program.*
> 
> Blackstrap molasses is good for iron.
> 
> The goat is very small. I would suspect coccidiosis. That is why a fecal analysis is important. Dewormers won't work on cocci. I suspect the goats have both.
> 
> I am very sorry you lost the other one. Keep in mind even the best farms lose goats to cocci and parasites. Kids are highly susceptible.



Okay- well, I don't know what 'be careful' with dosing means. How do I know what to do? When should I do it? And should I dose for cocci? What works on that?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Pictures ??? I had to click on the name Petunia... DUH. So much for being an IT director.
> 
> BUT WAIT A MINUTE... DOES SHE HAVE EARS?  In the picture it looks like I see ears. And they are WAY too big for LaMancha ears.
> 
> There is no way she is full grown. Tiny or not still not full grown, I would say about 4-6 months. Just a babe. Definitely get that fecal and check for cocci. Poor her and poor you. Is she friendly? Do you know if she was a bottle baby?



Yes, she has ears, they aren't big, I've seen regular ears, and they're tiny compared. Her sister didn't have any, though. At first I thought someone had cut them off until I looked up la manchas! Talk about a heart attack. I feel a little bump on her head where horns would be, probably the scars, so maybe dehorned? Not sure. And she is SUPER SUPER friendly. Like melts when you rub her head. She crawled up in my lap when I brought a chair in there today.


----------



## Southern by choice

You need to find a good vet.
You shouldn't dose the goats with anything until you know what you are dealing with.

The other issue is almost EVERYTHING is off label for goats meaning legally you must be under veterinary care for most products used on goats. 

A google search for livestock vets in your region should bring up several. Call and ask how much they do with goats... go from there.

Lamanchas are awesome. They are the cuddliest goats!


----------



## babsbag

Cocci you have two choices really. Corid which isn't preferred but it works and many use it and DiMethox 40% which you can get at many feed stores. But really have her checked for cocci first. If she as young as I suspect she may have been treated already and may not need it. Scours (diarrhea) are typical in kids with cocci but not always, but still, if she isn't scouring I would have her checked first. Any vet can at least do a cocci fecal check.

Unfortunately minerals and goats are a hard one. The best way to find out what they need is a blood draw and then send it out to a lab. That isn't always practical. If you live in a deficient area for Selenium you can bet that you will need to supplement her, especially if you breed her, but you have time for that. Copper is another goat problem. Always feed goat minerals, never sheep. Sheep minerals don't have copper in them.  I go a lot by looks. Is their coat nice, is a deep color (low copper makes their coat fade), is their tail bald on the tip, are their hooves good, not cracked, etc. Just the overall health. You will learn what is normal. I know that I have to supplement 2 x a year minimum, but that is my herd. But for now, don't worry about the minerals, just get her healthy.

She is probably mixed with another breed if she has ears that big. But that is ok, mixed breed goats are awesome. If she is super friendly she was probably raised on a bottle. Is she eating ok?


----------



## misfitmorgan

Southern by choice said:


> The dosage is completely incorrect and this class of dewormer needs to be given 3-5 days consecutively.
> 
> 
> 
> Please be very careful with this. Toxicity mimics deficiency... too many throw stuff at the goat without any data. Just because an area is deficient doesn't mean you will need to give something several times a year. A very skilled herdswoman with many years experience lost 12 of her top does to copper toxicity. Because she was in a very deficient area she gave copper  2x year every year... in the end the necropsy showed HIGH copper. Again, don't just do cuz your neighbor does. We are NOT in a deficient area but I have HIGH iron and it binds the minerals... causing issues with copper.
> 
> 
> 
> Great site BUT if I remember it is a standard fecal not McMasters. There is a reason why every university uses this method.
> I have several in depth articles on the Fecal method, and understanding the eyelid check (FAMACHA)
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/understanding-famacha-fecal-analysis.56/
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/the-mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis.55/
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis-part2.57/
> 
> 
> This is not necessarily true.
> I once did a consult the day after the vet was there. Vet said "goats cannot get tapeworm".  The goat had severe tape, was pooping them out, slide covered in eggs... I showed the lady my vet book (actual veterinary parasites handbook from MY vet's library) ....
> 
> A note about REDCELL!
> *Be aware that is illegal to feed any ruminate protein back to a ruminate as part of the scrapie/BSE control program.*
> 
> Blackstrap molasses is good for iron.
> 
> The goat is very small. I would suspect coccidiosis. That is why a fecal analysis is important. Dewormers won't work on cocci. I suspect the goats have both.
> 
> I am very sorry you lost the other one. Keep in mind even the best farms lose goats to cocci and parasites. Kids are highly susceptible.



@Southern by choice According to red cell itself there is no ruminate protein in red cell...what makes you say there is?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I understand this can be confusing and overwhelming when you haven't had any experience with livestock/goats. 

All the advice given is great 

*However, the absolute FIRST thing you need to do is get a fecal analysis done. 
Coccidia and parasites are your biggest threat. 
*
By having a vet or lab do a fecal analysis you can treat or rule out your biggest potential issues. 

You can move on to things like extra copper and selenium later. She has minerals now, she will be okay until you get any other issues taken care of.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Cocci you have two choices really. Corid which isn't preferred but it works and many use it and DiMethox 40% which you can get at many feed stores. But really have her checked for cocci first. If she as young as I suspect she may have been treated already and may not need it. Scours (diarrhea) are typical in kids with cocci but not always, but still, if she isn't scouring I would have her checked first. Any vet can at least do a cocci fecal check.
> 
> Unfortunately minerals and goats are a hard one. The best way to find out what they need is a blood draw and then send it out to a lab. That isn't always practical. If you live in a deficient area for Selenium you can bet that you will need to supplement her, especially if you breed her, but you have time for that. Copper is another goat problem. Always feed goat minerals, never sheep. Sheep minerals don't have copper in them.  I go a lot by looks. Is their coat nice, is a deep color (low copper makes their coat fade), is their tail bald on the tip, are their hooves good, not cracked, etc. Just the overall health. You will learn what is normal. I know that I have to supplement 2 x a year minimum, but that is my herd. But for now, don't worry about the minerals, just get her healthy.
> 
> She is probably mixed with another breed if she has ears that big. But that is ok, mixed breed goats are awesome. If she is super friendly she was probably raised on a bottle. Is she eating ok?



She's eating great. She ate the pellets I gave her this morning, and I gave her 1/8th cup of sunflower seeds, since I already had that on hand for my other animals. I know y'all said 1/4, but I figure I can give her half that in the morning, to see how she does with it, then the other half at night. She's constantly at the hay bin, and they've cleared the extra space in their pen of anything green yesterday. Her poop is solid, no diarrhea, and she isn't crying except when I leave the pen. I bought her the manna pro goat minerals, she isn't eating them though. I'll leave them in her pen and see what she does over time. Her tail isn't bald, I don't know what her "real" color coat is, so I can't speak for a color. Her hooves are not cracked, though now that you mention it, I wonder if I need to clip them? But she's walking fine, I'm not going to worry about that this week.


----------



## Southern by choice

misfitmorgan said:


> @Southern by choice According to red cell itself there is no ruminate protein in red cell...what makes you say there is?



Not sure if it still is or if formulation has changed but Red Cell contained Bovine liver products.


----------



## babsbag

Copper and Selenium "usually" isn't a problem with kids IF their dams were in good shape. But right now just get the worm issue under control. I wondered about eating in case she had still been on a bottle; some people will feed them bottles until the are 6  months old. They can be weaned as early as 8 weeks, but if you have dairy goats and extra milk you might as well give it to the kids but if she is eating well then she is most likely not on a bottle. 

It is sad that she is all alone now, poor baby. You are her herd now so it is no wonder she cries for you. I would worm her for 5 days in a row with the higher dose and then have a fecal done, hopefully you will find a vet that will do one for you.  That will let you know if it worked or not, and then repeat in 10 days and you should be good. Of course the cocci could still be lurking but if she isn't sick I wouldn't be in a panic over it, just do it ASAP. 

See if you can find any DiMethox 40% at any of your feed stores so you can treat the cocci if she has it.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Copper and Selenium "usually" isn't a problem with kids IF their dams were in good shape. But right now just get the worm issue under control. I wondered about eating in case she had still been on a bottle; some people will feed them bottles until the are 6  months old. They can be weaned as early as 8 weeks, but if you have dairy goats and extra milk you might as well give it to the kids but if she is eating well then she is most likely not on a bottle.
> 
> It is sad that she is all alone now, poor baby. You are her herd now so it is no wonder she cries for you. I would worm her for 5 days in a row with the higher dose and then have a fecal done, hopefully you will find a vet that will do one for you.  That will let you know if it worked or not, and then repeat in 10 days and you should be good. Of course the cocci could still be lurking but if she isn't sick I wouldn't be in a panic over it, just do it ASAP.
> 
> See if you can find any DiMethox 40% at any of your feed stores so you can treat the cocci if she has it.



I'll look for it, it would be nice to have all that on hand even if she isn't testing positive.


----------



## babsbag

If you can find it and you have to treat her this is the dose. It is given orally and they HATE it. 

1 cc /5 lbs. first day 
1 cc /10 lbs. next 5 days


----------



## Green Acres Farm

babsbag said:


> If you can find it and you have to treat her this is the dose. It is given orally and they HATE it




Mix it with a little sugar and they won't gag as much.


----------



## norseofcourse

Southern by choice said:


> Not sure if it still is or if formulation has changed but Red Cell contained Bovine liver products.


I just checked the gallon jug I got for a pony, earlier this year.  They must have changed the formulation, I don't see anything of animal origin.  It also states 'Contains no beef product ingredients'.  It does have a statement warning against feeding any other selenium supplement along with it.

My pony wasn't thrilled with the flavor...

@JenniferDuBay , I'm so sorry you lost one of the goats, but she had major problems before you got her, please don't fault yourself.  Good luck with the other goat.


----------



## Southern by choice

JenniferDuBay said:


> I'll look for it, it would be nice to have all that on hand even if she isn't testing positive.



Excellent! 
We always keep a pack on hand and usually it goes unused in the trash because of expiration date. We use a different product for prevention so cocci the disease hasn't been an issue. 

I was happy to have it on hand this year when 2 kid goats came in... due to stress, weaning and castration they had a major bloom! They were on preventative on their farm. So glad we had it. 

Sadly many goats don't show symptoms til they are on deaths door and then it is a mad scramble to find the things you need and often too late!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Stocking the goat medicine cabinet is good! 

Be sure to research the proper dosage for all the meds you get. Good luck finding the di-methox  sadly it is pretty much on back order everywhere. There was a huge shortage a while back ( might have been in 2015- it's been a while!) and I haven't been able to find it online or local. I was just looking for some for a client and still couldn't find it. 

Research all you can. Having the right eye and knowing when to give the proper meds (under a vets supervision) is something you generally learn after having goats for a while. Waiting to treat until you see symptoms of cocci can be deadly. They don't always scour, but when they do you won't have much time. Sometimes irreversible damage has already been done, sometime a big die off of cocci kills the goat, sometimes the intestinal lining is expelled, sometimes they recover, other times they don't. 

This is why I like the fecal analysis. 

You are less likely to come home to a dead goat. Treating at the right times before they act sick can doesn't put as much stress on the goat. When the goats immune system isn't so stressed from things like cocci, it is less prone to secondary issues. 

I know of someone's wether that got a bad case of cocci this year, right after that the goat almost died of secondary issues due to a lowered immune system.  

You saw how fast you other goat went down, you had no time. This isn't to criticize you, this is looking at how fast things can go downhill. 

Maybe I'm more proactive than others, but I don't like waiting until a goat is on deaths door. 

Good luck with your other girl 
Please keep us posted


----------



## Green Acres Farm

@Southern by choice the reason I said that about the copper and selenium supplements was because you said:



Southern by choice said:


> Depending on your region and where they have come from they may need additional supplementation.



What I said was reccomemded by my vet and other more experienced goat owners than myself. I was not trying to imply that that was something that needed to be done ASAP.  I'm sorry if I misinformed anyone.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Goat Whisperer said:


> Stocking the goat medicine cabinet is good!
> 
> Be sure to research the proper dosage for all the meds you get. Good luck finding the di-methox  sadly it is pretty much on back order everywhere. There was a huge shortage a while back ( might have been in 2015- it's been a while!) and I haven't been able to find it online or local. I was just looking for some for a client and still couldn't find it.
> 
> Research all you can. Having the right eye and knowing when to give the proper meds (under a vets supervision) is something you generally learn after having goats for a while. Waiting to treat until you see symptoms of cocci can be deadly. They don't always scour, but when they do you won't have much time. Sometimes irreversible damage has already been done, sometime a big die off of cocci kills the goat, sometimes the intestinal lining is expelled, sometimes they recover, other times they don't.
> 
> This is why I like the fecal analysis.
> 
> You are less likely to come home to a dead goat. Treating at the right times before they act sick can doesn't put as much stress on the goat. When the goats immune system isn't so stressed from things like cocci, it is less prone to secondary issues.
> 
> I know of someone's wether that got a bad case of cocci this year, right after that the goat almost died of secondary issues due to a lowered immune system.
> 
> You saw how fast you other goat went down, you had no time. This isn't to criticize you, this is looking at how fast things can go downhill.
> 
> Maybe I'm more proactive than others, but I don't like waiting until a goat is on deaths door.
> 
> Good luck with your other girl
> Please keep us posted



So you fecal analysis on a preventative basis? How often do you perform the test? And coming home to a not-dead goat would be ideal.  I didn't even get to name her. We were talking about lulubelle.


----------



## babsbag

@Goat Whisperer it looks like Valley Vet might have the di-methox in stock.


----------



## babsbag

Most people that live in a worm problem area will test 2-4 times a year depending on their environment. If you test and find nothing then you can maybe even do once a year. You will learn what works at your farm. Checking the eyelids is quick and lets you know if the "killers" are on the loose. i.e.  Barber Pole worm, liver flukes, Brown stomach worms. 

I don't have a worm problem (super hot and dry) so I test randomly once a year. Or if I see a goat that has a poor coat or scours I will check them too.


----------



## Southern by choice

You know as i read through the post I am very moved.

This really is an awesome community! Each person has added and given valuable info.

@JenniferDuBay  We know this is tough on you! If anything, at least you know you have so many "strangers" that care. We are goat people and goat folks are a little "different". 

You have been thrown into the goat world under less than ideal circumstances. We are all pulling for you and your new girl.

Looking back you received such a great deal of info and wow that can be a lot.

I'll post a little on the prevention side maybe in another thread.

Breathe!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

babsbag said:


> @Goat Whisperer it looks like Valley Vet might have the di-methox in stock.


Nope, still not in stock. Just checked again. You got me all excited though- I was really hoping they had it! I've been looking constantly. Thankfully we have the toltrazuirl, but I've been looking for others.

@JenniferDuBay 
We own a scope and run our own fecals, using the McMasters method. 

We run a several fecals a few weeks apart on any new goats we bring in. We want to catch any parasite bloom before we have a sick or dead goat. 

We run a fecal before breeding does and after kidding. Kidding generally causes a parasite bloom. 

We run a fecals on kids periodically on kids to check for parasites and cocci. 

We run fecals whenever we suspect a problem. We know our goats pretty well and can usually tell if they are starting to get wormy. 

If we know a hoat in particular is having problems of any kind we check the fecal. 

More later


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Also update: girlfriend brought home a scale for me. Took me a while to figure out how to weigh her. I was like coaxing her up on some plywood and then trying to bribe her into staying... herding goats is like herding cats. I finally figured out *I stand on the scale*, and lift her. It worked great!

In a completely unrelated note, when you pick up a goat, they poop on you. 


Truly you don't own an animal until it poops on you.

Anyway, I had an idea, if being friendly is related to being bottle fed, I thought maybe I could dose her with the worming agent in a bottle. So I put the meds and about 2 oz of water in a bottle, and gave it to her. She tried to drink, but wasn't getting anywhere. Then I figured the hole was probably too small, so I cut it, and DING DING DING! We have a bottle baby.


----------



## babsbag

How fun is that.  Once a bottle baby always a bottle baby. I have had the does take bottles at a year old. I still think that she is very young.


----------



## babsbag

@Goat Whisperer  Are you looking for the 40% or powder?  I buy the injectable 40%.  I didn't hit the pay button but it never said it was unavailable ...I put it in my cart.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> There atre a couple of easier ways to do that.
> First, you don't HAVE to weigh her, you can do a heart-girth measurement and get a pretty good idea of her weight. There are lots of charts online.
> Second, a syringe or drench gun on the back of the tongue is a lot easier than a water bottle.



I'll look for it at a tractor supply. But the 99C baby bottle worked great for this, thankfully. I had a syringe the first time I dosed her, but it was a fight to get it in her mouth, so I figured with the greater amount of ccs, it would be even more difficult.


----------



## Latestarter

Awwww... let her have some fun here! With all she's been dealing with, through no choice of her own, doing a little bottle time ought to be good for them both!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So, worst case scenario, if she does have a bad reaction to losing worms, what should I look for, and what can I do?


----------



## Fullhousefarm

JenniferDuBay said:


> Hello, I've inherited some skinny goats- or at least that's what my vet says. Their rumins are healthy, to say the least! So now I have to figure out how to fatten them up. They're two la manchas, under a year, not been bred yet. Here's what I have available to me:
> 
> Coastal hay-I spent time digging, and this is the only hay that seems to be available in my area. I've called feed stores, checked craigslist, it's all only coastal.
> Sweet feed
> goat pellets
> alfalfa pellets or cubes (if at all possible- cubes are a PITA, I'd rather not do that.)
> 
> So what should I feed, in what ratio? And does anyone have a schedule for medicines, inoculations etc I should do? I'd assume they have had nothing of what they were supposed to. Please if at all possible, help me out. These poor goats kind of fell in my lap as a last minute resort, and I'd like to do right by them.




I didn't read the whole thread, but I did read the first page.

I'm in Florida as well, so if you want to message me the county or general region you are in I might have some suggestions on vets, hay, etc. We have Lamanchas and Nigerian Dwarfs.

Yes, coastal hay in great for the goats, but isn't likely to put much weight on them on it's own. Tifton is fine too. Peanut hay is coming into season and is very good for them as it's high in protein like alfalfa, but mine waste less and like it more. It's semi- regional to FL/GA area and cheaper in N.Fl and more expensive the farther south of Tampa/Orlando you get in general. But, I'd highly recommended it for goats needing weight or in milk. I give it to babies, milkers, and any goat that needs some fattening up. I don't feed free choice, but use a pat once or twice a day.

You should be able to find a 16% goat pellet. I use unmedicated since I milk and don't want to worry about trace amounts in milk and I'd also rather treat animals that need treated individually. Southern states has a good goat grain that many smaller feed stores may carry. So does Lakeland cash and Knights feed. In a pinch if you can't find anything the Livestock sweet feed at TSC (the one with the horse and goat on it ) isn't bad and if you added goat minerals (TSC carries them too) could work until you locate a better goat feed. Strarting slow as suggested earlier is good. My full grown Lamanchas get around 2-3 c twice a day if they are at a good weight and way more when in milk. Less if "fat". They are on limited pasture and get hay.

I'd start with CDT injections (TSC or other feed stores will have. One now, and second n 3-4 weeks. 2ccs a goat SQ injection) and a fecal (find a large animal vet and they should be able to do them). Then if they have parasites you can treat for the right ones right away and not treat if not needed. You can feed a goat tons of feed, but if they have a bad parasite load they won't gain well. Since we are so wet and warm here in FL they are a big problem the farther south you are.  

We are typically deficient in copper and selenium. Local goat people or vets would know best, but initially I'd focus more on correct nutrition and parasites unless they have obvious signs of either.

I hope that helps a little. There are lots of goats in Florida.

Welcome!


----------



## Fullhousefarm

Green Acres Farm said:


> I don't see that on VV, but I do see it on Jeffers.


I just got some from Jeffers on the 17th. Gallon of liquid for $49 I think.


----------



## chiques chicks

It sounds as if you're remaining goat is eating and drinking. An excellent start. That you are spending time with her and bonding will go far in helping her relax and heal. I went through a similar situation earlier this year when I lost one of two just starting out. I gave goat probiotics. They seemed to help. Mine pulled through and now romps with two friends.

The fact that you cared enough to come and ask shows the kind of person you are.
The people here are so helpful and knowledgeable.


----------



## babsbag

Are you still using the Safeguard? I am following two threads on worms so I get confused sometimes...I'm OLD !!!!

If you still have her on Safeguard she should be fine, the Red Cell will help too. What color are her bottom inside eyelids?


----------



## norseofcourse

Goat Whisperer said:


> Good luck finding the di-methox  sadly it is pretty much on back order everywhere. There was a huge shortage a while back ( might have been in 2015- it's been a while!) and I haven't been able to find it online or local. I was just looking for some for a client and still couldn't find it.


I checked PBS livestock just now - they have 3 different types of Di-Methox (for anyone not aware, use of this in goats is off-label and should only be done under the direction of your vet):

Injectable 40%. 250 ml., they have it in stock - didn't ask the price, but they said there's a $2 rebate now. 

12.5% solution, gallon jug - they may have that in stock, again sorry didn't ask the price.

Soluable powder, 3.77 oz. packet - not in stock, regular price 12.15.

They are good to work with and decent prices - I am lucky enough to live within driving distance to one of their stores, too!


----------



## Southern by choice

Thanks @norseofcourse 
We get the powder packets... seems that is always out of stock. Grrr


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So, she spent all night crying. I took a sleeping bag out there and slept along her fence last night, and she finally fell asleep next to me. She seems fine during the day, hasn't really made a sound, but at night she's crying. @babsbag She seems to be about a 3 on that chart


----------



## babsbag

Poor baby and you are so sweet to do that. You can get her some baby diapers and bring her in the house 

If she is a # 3 then the worming shouldn't be dangerous for her. I would get an actual fecal test done soon though so you can see if the worming is working. She could be skinny from the worms, cocci if she has it, or just lack of feed. It's hard when you don't know the history. 

I would start looking for a friend for her and make sure it is friendly and healthy.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Poor baby and you are so sweet to do that. You can get her some baby diapers and bring her in the house
> 
> If she is a # 3 then the worming shouldn't be dangerous for her. I would get an actual fecal test done soon though so you can see if the worming is working. She could be skinny from the worms, cocci if she has it, or just lack of feed. It's hard when you don't know the history.
> 
> I would start looking for a friend for her and make sure it is friendly and healthy.



I think the cats and my other half would kill me if I did that I'm bringing a fecal sample to my vet tomorrow, when I go to see his nigerians.


----------



## Fullhousefarm

JenniferDuBay said:


> I think the cats and my other half would kill me if I did that I'm bringing a fecal sample to my vet tomorrow, when I go to see his nigerians.


 I know someone in Lithia who has two mature wethers (castrated males) available. She breeds high quality Nigerian dwarfs, but these are more "pets" but she's willing to let them go to a good home. A buddy is certainly a good idea.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Fullhousefarm said:


> I know someone in Lithia who has two mature wethers (castrated males) available. She breeds high quality Nigerian dwarfs, but these are more "pets" but she's willing to let them go to a good home. A buddy is certainly a good idea.



My vet offered for me to come out and look at his nigerians. He rescued a bunch and he's letting them go to good homes.


----------



## babsbag

Well be sure and get us lots of pictures, we live for pictures. And let us know what the fecal shows too.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So I got a call last night from my vet, he had mentioned my situation to another goater, and she said she had a goat for me, apparently it was being picked on, and she had it separated. So I drove an hour to go get her. Clearly she's not been handled much, but her mother is being milked, and milks well. She's a Kinder goat. The deal is, I get her. If I don't breed her, that's the end of it. If I do, I'm supposed to give them her first kid, whatever that may be. Seemed like a decent deal for a free goat. My vet said to come out to look at his goats anyway, though, as if I get 3, then I'm not in such a time crunch to get another goat if I lose another. 

Anyway, here's our new goat, Lilly Of The Valley. 

She's WAY more... goaty than petunia or her sister ever were. She's jumping on things, running, screaming... she jumped through an air window I had put into the side of the shed so that the goats could see who is coming in the gate, I didn't even think that a goat could fit through there. She stands on her hind legs like a ballerina! Petunia still has never done that, lol. Perhaps she will teach Tuny to goat. 

So introductions went okay, not spectacular. They stomped at each other, but all three of us spent hours last night in a mexican stand off, at the edge of the barn. I think she liked it up there because it's more than a foot off the ground and she seems more tall. Anyway, I was standing in the corner of the pen, and Tuny was on the other corner of the barn on the ground. Whenever she seemed to relax, I would inch forward, and hold out my hand. If she backed up, so did I. If she stood her ground, I held my hand out until she sniffed it, then I backed off. By the end of the night she was just straight up nosing me, so progress. I'll spend most of today sitting in her pen being non-threatening.

When I went out there this morning, they were sleeping in the shed together, and when I fed them this morning, rather than go to different bowls, they ate out of the same bowl twice. So, it seems for now negotiations went well.

Here's what I know about her health. Her mom is their favorite milker, and she was dam raised for the first 4 months, she's 5 months now. She's being fed Purina goat chow once a day with minerals mixed in, but was mostly field fed. She was wormed with Cydectin oral sheep drench on the 4th of July, but doesn't have vaccines and wasn't tested for CAE.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

We NEED pictures!!!!! I'm glad Petunia has a friend

You can give her CDT from tractor supply. It's about $6 for 10 doses. You give her 2 ml sub q first dose and 3-4 weeks later you give the same dose again.
If you are worried about vaccinating, it's really easy. There are lots of videos on the web showing how.

She is a little young to test for CAE. I would wait at least a month or two. When you do test, you might want to use this lab:
http://www.centralfloridalargeanimal.com/cae.html


----------



## chiques chicks

Glad you got her a friend! 
Sounds like things are going well so far. It takes time for them to bond, and time for they're true personalities to show after a move to a new here.

Keep a close check for parasite bloom once again, stress of moving plus new surroundings, soil, etc can cause them.


----------



## TAH

Looks like they are doing good with each other. .

You want to get her tested for CAE in the next few months. Do you know if her parents were tested?


----------



## Latestarter

You'll probably want to get a fecal done on Lily in the next 5-7 days for exactly what Chiques said, a moving/stress caused parasite bloom. In addition, since there was no quarantine of Lily and they were immediately put together, whatever parasites either have/had, will easily transfer to the other. So you may want another fecal of Petunia at the same time. Since you'll be doing a CD&T for Lily, you might as well hit Petunia as well, cause I'll give odds (did you say?) the original owner never vaccinated her either.

Goat math is a real thing you know  ... They start multiplying without the need to breed   You started with 2,  then went to one,  now back to two and on the way to three  ...  All in less than a month! Imagine where you'll be in a year!  

In case you didn't know, a "Kinder" is a cross between a Nubian and a Pygmy goat. Would love to see pics when you can. You must have a very understanding DH.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> We NEED pictures!!!!! I'm glad Petunia has a friend
> 
> You can give her CDT from tractor supply. It's about $6 for 10 doses. You give her 2 ml sub q first dose and 3-4 weeks later you give the same dose again.
> If you are worried about vaccinating, it's really easy. There are lots of videos on the web showing how.
> 
> She is a little young to test for CAE. I would wait at least a month or two. When you do test, you might want to use this lab:
> http://www.centralfloridalargeanimal.com/cae.html





Latestarter said:


> You'll probably want to get a fecal done on Lily in the next 5-7 days for exactly what Chiques said, a moving/stress caused parasite bloom. In addition, since there was no quarantine of Lily and they were immediately put together, whatever parasites either have/had, will easily transfer to the other. So you may want another fecal of Petunia at the same time. Since you'll be doing a CD&T for Lily, you might as well hit Petunia as well, cause I'll give odds (did you say?) the original owner never vaccinated her either.
> 
> Goat math is a real thing you know  ... They start multiplying without the need to breed   You started with 2,  then went to one,  now back to two and on the way to three  ...  All in less than a month! Imagine where you'll be in a year!
> 
> In case you didn't know, a "Kinder" is a cross between a Nubian and a Pygmy goat. Would love to see pics when you can. You must have a very understanding DH.



@babsbag suggested a mail in fecal test. I'll do that for Lily, and I'm bringing a fecal sample of Petunia's today to the vet to get tested. I knew about chicken math, who knew goat math was a thing! My other half has cat math, and we're actually starting to homestead, so it's not even understanding- it's supporting the habbit! *taps veins* Hey, got anymore of those goats?

So I thought I had linked the photos in  my earlier post, let me try this again, now imgur cooperate: Lily

I do have a question. I read fias co farms about headbutting and violence, but Petunia and her sister *never* headbutted, never stomped at each other, nothing like this while they were here. And now Lily is taking pot shots at Petunia, and I'm wondering if this is going to be all right, especially since Petunia wasn't exposed to this?

Headbutting


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## TAH

They should do just fine with head butting. I had one that was very calm and rarely head butted when we got out buck she was head butting him all day. Thry were fine though


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## Latestarter

Since Petunia and her sister were together since birth, there wouldn't necessarily have been any need for head butting. Since Lily is new to the "herd" she is trying to establish her place in it. This will get better once there's a 3rd member as then it won't be the same one-on-one all the time. Lily has a bit of an advantage in that she still has her horns. She will end up being smaller, possibly by a large margin, once Petunia is full grown. I'd keep a watch on it, but it is pretty natural. From the video you posted it didn't look like Lily was trying to be deliberately mean... Just staking her claim more or less.


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## JenniferDuBay

TAH said:


> They should do just fine with head butting. I had one that was very calm and rarely head butted when we got out buck she was head butting him all day. Thry were fine though





Latestarter said:


> Since Petunia and her sister were together since birth, there wouldn't necessarily have been any need for head butting. Since Lily is new to the "herd" she is trying to establish her place in it. This will get better once there's a 3rd member as then it won't be the same one-on-one all the time. Lily has a bit of an advantage in that she still has her horns. She will end up being smaller, possibly by a large margin, once Petunia is full grown. I'd keep a watch on it, but it is pretty natural. From the video you posted it didn't look like Lily was trying to be deliberately mean... Just staking her claim more or less.



Thanks, this makes me feel better.


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## TAH

She doesn't look like a kinder goat to me. She looks like a boar pygmy mix. Is it just me or what do you all think?? I


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## JenniferDuBay

TAH said:


> She doesn't look like a kinder goat to me. She looks like a boar pygmy mix. Is it just me or what do you all think?? I



So the people called her a Kinder goat, but said she was an alpine x pigmy. I saw the parents, I'm fairly certain her mom isn't a boer- don't they have red heads? She was all white.


----------



## Southern by choice

TAH said:


> She doesn't look like a kinder goat to me. She looks like a boar pygmy mix. Is it just me or what do you all think?? I


Me too.

Why send one fecal by mail and take one to the vet?

The "kinder" looks thin, glad you are doing a fecal!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> Me too.
> 
> Why send one fecal by mail and take one to the vet?
> 
> The "kinder" looks thin, glad you are doing a fecal!



Because I thought that Petunia was an emergency case, and lily could wait. The price difference was significant- the mail in one is only 5 dollars.


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## babsbag

If they are milking the dam probably not a boer, but she has floppy ears so there is some Boer or Nubian in there somewhere but she's a cutey. I would watch those horns though, some goats can be downright vicious with them. 

I gave you a link to a mail in fecal? Was that Sage Ag Labs? I have never done a mail in fecal, but see no reason not to if the price is right?  I use that lab for other tests though.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> If they are milking the dam probably not a boer, but she has floppy ears so there is some Boer or Nubian in there somewhere but she's a cutey. I would watch those horns though, some goats can be downright vicious with them.
> 
> I gave you a link to a mail in fecal? Was that Sage Ag Labs? I have never done a mail in fecal, but see no reason not to if the price is right?  I use that lab for other tests though.



My bad, I'm bad with names. It was fullhousefarms


----------



## Southern by choice

@babsbag  do you think this looks like a Alpine X Pygmy?
They said it was a kinder then AlpineXPygmy... 
Alpine pygmy would have erect ears and the colors are all wrong. LOL

BUT I agree she is adorable ... then again what goat isn't! 
Horns though


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> @babsbag  do you think this looks like a Alpine X Pygmy?
> They said it was a kinder then AlpineXPygmy...
> Alpine pygmy would have erect ears and the colors are all wrong. LOL
> 
> BUT I agree she is adorable ... then again what goat isn't!
> Horns though



Mom was all white and curly. Looks a lot like this, without the curly horns: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Lily has the curly hair at the back of her legs, not sure if you can see that. She also has brown spots as like opposite knee pads. 

The dad was quite clearly a miniature goat of some sort. Very stocky.


----------



## TAH

Looks like it could be a cashmere?


----------



## TAH

Looks like it could be a cashmere?


----------



## babsbag

I don't think it is long enough hair for a cashmere. The ears on Lily look like a cross with a Boer,and so does her coloring, which makes no sense. There aren't many white Alpines out there either so if mom was solid white I would guess Saanen. And I have seen some pretty "fluffy" goats and I have some Alpines with long hair on the back of the legs and under the belly. 

@Southern by choice, could she have some Kiko in her? They have airplane ears don't they?


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> I don't think it is long enough hair for a cashmere. The ears on Lily look like a cross with a Boer,and so does her coloring, which makes no sense. There aren't many white Alpines out there either so if mom was solid white I would guess Saanen. And I have seen some pretty "fluffy" goats and I have some Alpines with long hair on the back of the legs and under the belly.
> 
> @Southern by choice, could she have some Kiko in her? They have airplane ears don't they?



Her ears are hilarious, too. They move about when you talk to her, or when she complains. All in all I'm enjoying her.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So we have a new goat, I'm pleased to introduce Crape Myrtle (are you guys sensing a pattern to these names? )

She's a nigerian-pygmy cross, that might have some other mutt genes in there. I'm not too concerned with genetics and show goats, obviously. You don't look a gift horse... goat... whatever... in the mouth. (Funny story, we went and got the goat today, and he had alpacas, too. Girlfriend couldn't remember the name of the animals, so she called it a baby giraffe with a sweater )

She's older than the other two, and I believe she's had a baby before. She is very standoffish, even more than Lily is, so my work is cut out for me. (Any advice on this? I'd like to be able to handle her, and put a leash on her when necessary.) She is very dominant, if I was to take a guess I think she was a herd leader over at the other place. She was the first to come in for grain, at least. When I introduced her, Lily immediately stopped crying. It's been blessed silence since she came. They're not fighting anymore, either. But she had a big row with Petunia, lots of headbutting. She is naturally polled, though, so I am significantly less concerned about Petunia headbutting her. 

She is up to date on vaccines, was wormed this week, and tested negative for the CAE. 

Here she is wandering around.


----------



## Latestarter

Oh wow... in that video, is that the window you were talking about her going through?  That really IS small!  Congrats on another flower goat!  As for getting them to come to you, get a can, like a coffee can with a lid, put some pebbles or marbles in there and give it a good shake while you call for them then fed them treats. Once they associate the can and your calling means treats, there'll be no stopping them from charging you any time they hear that can or you yelling.  Aside from that, just being with them, calm and ignoring them will get their curiosity peeked. Bring some treats and any time they come to you, give them one.  Some BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds), or raisins, alfalfa cubes, some grain, PB&J sandwiches (just kidding!)  Try different things and see what they like. Hint: no meats...


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## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> Oh wow... in that video, is that the window you were talking about her going through?  That really IS small!  Congrats on another flower goat!  As for getting them to come to you, get a can, like a coffee can with a lid, put some pebbles or marbles in there and give it a good shake while you call for them then fed them treats. Once they associate the can and your calling means treats, there'll be no stopping them from charging you any time they hear that can or you yelling.  Aside from that, just being with them, calm and ignoring them will get their curiosity peeked. Bring some treats and any time they come to you, give them one.  Some BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds), or raisins, alfalfa cubes, some grain, PB&J sandwiches (just kidding!)  Try different things and see what they like. Hint: no meats...



Oh darn, guess I'll hold off on the steak dinner for em  And yes, that's the window! She did it in one leap... "nothing but net" and landed graceful as can be. It was crazy. I've been sitting out there. Lily is starting to warm up to me, she's willing to eat from a bowl I hold, but not my hand. Still, it's progress. Now I have a small problem. Petunia is about as tame as they come, she's very much a lap goat. I come in, she follows me around, so close she's knocked my glasses off when I was kneeling. But since the other two are more standoffish, how do I get them goat pellets and keep her from eating them like a glutton?


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## babsbag

We have a thread on here for Goat Addicts anonymous if you care to join.   You may NEED to join soon....
Fruit Loops or peanuts are great snacks.

Actually PBJ sandwiches they would probably love.

Now you need a buck so Crepe Myrtle can make you some babies this year...babies =  and cheese. Cheese =  too.


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## babsbag

You may have to pen her while you feed the others. I would get one bowl for each goat, that can help. I know some people will tie them while they eat so that they stay in their bowl but you would have to stay there with them at all times. A tied up goat can get in plenty of trouble in short order.


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> You may have to pen her while you feed the others. I would get one bowl for each goat, that can help. I know some people will tie them while they eat so that they stay in their bowl but you would have to stay there with them at all times. A tied up goat can get in plenty of trouble in short order.



I'll have to build a pen. I could tie up petunia, though. She's docile enough to just stand there if I'm there, mostly. I don't think I could get close enough to the other two to collar them, though. I see all these people who have collars on their goats all the time, but I'd be afraid they'd get hung up on something.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> We have a thread on here for Goat Addicts anonymous if you care to join.   You may NEED to join soon....
> Fruit Loops or peanuts are great snacks.
> 
> Actually PBJ sandwiches they would probably love.
> 
> Now you need a buck so Crepe Myrtle can make you some babies this year...babies =  and cheese. Cheese =  too.



Well, she came from a herd that ran bucks with does, lily did too. Could she be pregnant now? It took me forever to figure out why I had never smelled goat before I took home these two, and then suddenly my backyard smells like them, it's the buck scent! But if I had to admit it- it doesn't bug me. In fact I kind of like the smell, like good hay compost. I would like to get a buck eventually, but we're only on 1 acre of land, and I would need to build a whole new pen. How far do they have to be apart to not make the milk taste funny? And most of my other land has poisonous plants on it, I'd have to do some clear cutting and burning. But for right now, I just want to concentrate on getting them healthy and happy.


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## sadieml

@JenniferDuBay -  Just catching-up on your new goat adventure.  Welcome to the "Wide World of Goats".  Sorry things started out really rough for you, but you seem to be bouncing back very well, and goat math is already at work for you! You have also learned firsthand how wonderfully this community works to help in times of need.  All of the folks here are great and care deeply for goats.  Of course, anthropologists say the goat was likely the first domesticated animal, and I strongly believe God made them to live in community with people (hence their naturally homogenized milk, and the fact that many "lactose intolerant" people can consume goat milk with no problem).  The bonding that takes place between goats and their owners is instantaneous and powerful.  Congratulations on the rapid growth of your herd, and ENJOY!!!  Personally, I think goats are just about the most awesome animals EVER!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

sadieml said:


> @JenniferDuBay -  Just catching-up on your new goat adventure.  Welcome to the "Wide World of Goats".  Sorry things started out really rough for you, but you seem to be bouncing back very well, and goat math is already at work for you! You have also learned firsthand how wonderfully this community works to help in times of need.  All of the folks here are great and care deeply for goats.  Of course, anthropologists say the goat was likely the first domesticated animal, and I strongly believe God made them to live in community with people (hence their naturally homogenized milk, and the fact that many "lactose intolerant" people can consume goat milk with no problem).  The bonding that takes place between goats and their owners is instantaneous and powerful.  Congratulations on the rapid growth of your herd, and ENJOY!!!  Personally, I think goats are just about the most awesome animals EVER!



Yes, the people here have been amazing! I'm very, very thankful for the information and help (someone even offered me vet info!) I had no idea that goats were the first domesticated animal- I thought dogs were! My girlfriend is lactose intolerant, so all in all this has been very beneficial.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

If you are going to be wanting to milk them, I would not get a buck. That's just my opinion. Buck's can be really cute and sweet...six months out of the year...
The other six months...well they pee all over themselves, fight the other bucks and scream because they want the girls! (At least mine do)
For your situation, I might wait until you want to breed them, then pay someone else to breed their buck to your does. You probably will end up saving money because you will not have to build a separate pen, feed it, take it to the vet, etc.
And- I think one acre is too close together if you are going to be milking and don't want a goaty taste. I might be wrong. Some people say their bucks don't make the milk taste off, but in my experience it does!
Oh, AND if you got a buck, you would have to get him a friend so he wouldn't be lonely in his separate pen.

Again, this is just my opinion, other people might disagree.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> If you are going to be wanting to milk them, I would not get a buck. That's just my opinion. Buck's can be really cute and sweet...six months out of the year...
> The other six months...well they pee all over themselves, fight the other bucks and scream because they want the girls! (At least mine do)
> For your situation, I might wait until you want to breed them, then pay someone else to breed their buck to your does. You probably will end up saving money because you will not have to build a separate pen, feed it, take it to the vet, etc.
> And- I think one acre is too close together if you are going to be milking and don't want a goaty taste. I might be wrong. Some people say their bucks don't make the milk taste off, but in my experience it does!
> Oh, AND if you got a buck, you would have to get him a friend so he wouldn't be lonely in his separate pen.
> 
> Again, this is just my opinion, other people might disagree.



That would be ideal. I will be building another pen, however, in case I need to separate for kidding or something. My vet that gave me Myrtle is only about 15 minutes from me, and was in the process of changing his intact buck, so maybe next year I can get that buck to cover her. (He's adorable- blue eyed, tricolor) How does that work? Do you bring the buck back to your house and have them for a few days? How do you know if she's in heat?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> You will have to talk to your vet about who's bringing who to whose house.
> 
> Here is Fiasco Farm's page on heat and breeding:
> 
> https://fiascofarm.com/goats/breeding.htm



thanks!


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## Green Acres Farm

Although I do disagree with Fiasco Farms about the age you should breed. A year or year and a half is a better breeding age IMO.


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## Southern by choice

I love my bucks! I have 15 of them. 
Fencing and either wire or separated on different ends of property etc works.

For most people the first few years with bucks can be hard especially when they rut because of the smell. Some bucks smell is horrid, others not so bad. I think diet may have something to do with it...
Anyway, after the first few years you tend to have a different opinion of that deep rut smell. For us it is 
.. LOVE IS IN THE AIR! 

Many people do lease bucks or take does for a visit. 
Keep in mind it is a very serious bio-security risk. 
We do not stud any of our bucks out, with one exception. If a person bought does from us and ONLY have *our goats* on their farm we do give them a breeding the first year after that they need to buy their own buck. 

Our bucks are lovey doveys! Especially the Nigerian boys.


----------



## Southern by choice

Green Acres Farm said:


> Although I do disagree with Fiasco Farms about the age you should breed. A year or year and a half is a better breeding age IMO.



I agree! Fiasco farms is a valuable resource however there are many many things that goat breeders would take issue with. This is one. 
Some things are very outdated so be careful.


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> Some things are very outdated so be careful.



Yes!!! Get a second opinion on medicine dosages especially...


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> Yes!!! Get a second opinion on medicine dosages especially...



I saw their opinions on homeopathic care, so I was taking the information with a grain of salt, thank you. If all of you tend to agree on a subject, I feel pretty confident that it's probably right.


----------



## Southern by choice

The breeding thing is difficult.
We never go by weight or age alone... we look at rump width, overall condition, age and weight. I have a six month old Lamancha doe  that is 80 lbs.... NO WAY I would breed her. She may or may not be ready in 4 months... The last thing I want is a complicated delivery, a dead doe, or a doe that struggles with  production.


Nigerians can really be all over the map as far as being ready.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

When I'm ready for it, can I post pictures here and get opinions and have you tell me what to look for? This sounds like something I'd need some experience to see


Southern by choice said:


> The breeding thing is difficult.
> We never go by weight or age alone... we look at rump width, overall condition, age and weight. I have a six month old Lamancha doe  that is 80 lbs.... NO WAY I would breed her. She may or may not be ready in 4 months... The last thing I want is a complicated delivery, a dead doe, or a doe that struggles with  production.
> 
> 
> Nigerians can really be all over the map as far as being ready.


----------



## chiques chicks

You may always post pictures. People here love that.


----------



## babsbag

Back to the question of Myrtle being bred...yes she could be if she was with a buck and she is a mature doe. Nigis are not seasonal breeders so she can get pregnant year round. In a month from now you could have some blood drawn and send it in for testing. They have to be more than one month bred. 

I used someone else's buck for the first three years I owned goats. I would take my doe to their house for a "driveway" breeding and then come home. The thing with that is that you need to be able to transport and they need to be ready to receive, you get about a 24 hour window if you are lucky. I got tired of breeding in the rain, on Thanksgiving, on a Sunday, etc. so I finally bought mine own. My bucks have always been penned adjacent to the does with a fence and a hot wire in between and no problems. Mine are not noisy BTW; the does make more noise than my bucks. (I have 5 right now and another on its way next weekend). The bucks are about 5' away from the barn I milk in and it doesn't bother the milk. I don't love on the bucks and then milk, I don't let the bucks in the barn, and I don't leave my does with the bucks. 

I did borrow a buck for a season once, but the owner didn't need him at her house so it worked out well. It was someone I knew and I knew the status of her herd. I had an Alpine buck at the time and need a LaMancha so she leased me one of hers. I now have me own. 

I am very particular about where my does go to get bred for more than a hour or two. Too many unknowns and not just biosecurity but also the doe getting out of a pen or getting hurt (dogs or other predators). Sometimes the farm just isn't set up for another goat and they don't have good physical security in the area they might put your doe in.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So it started raining here- The goats are screaming at me like it's my fault.  Apparently in the face of their arch nemesis, the rain, all unfamiliarities and disagreements are being forgotten. Myrtle is letting the kids in the shed and giving me the stink eye. Clearly this is my fault. I will never speak to her, or her (newly adopted) daughters again.  I had been considering getting a milk cow before, but I am so, so, so glad I got these accidental goats. As heartbreaking a start as it's been, it's going to be great.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

I'm glad Myrtle likes them!
I have a doe who had a son, but she let the doeling I bought nurse on her and kind of adopted her, too.

Another one of the Nigerian Dwarf bucklings would sneak up on any of the lactating does and get a good suck before they kicked him away. He was fat.


----------



## Latestarter

Oh yes... some goats love the water, as long as THEY make the choice...   Otherwise, and for the most part, they are deathly afraid of it and they seldom pay close attention, so when  the first raindrop hits them and they begin to melt, they sometimes scream their little heads off while running for cover. Kinda funny really. Don't worry, She'll get over it, I'm sure she's playing for affect and has had melting episodes before. A few treats and you'll be back in her good graces


----------



## TAH

Congrats on the doe
Looks like you may end up with like 3 then 5 . That is what happend to us anyway. 

She is super cute

@babsbag I was talking about the picture of the goats that @JenniferDuBay posted.


----------



## babsbag

Yes goats are either the wicked witch or sugar...either way they melt in the rain.

@TAH, the cashmere goats I have seen look like shaggy sheep dogs, but I supposed that the ones in the pictures could have been sheared. IDK


----------



## misfitmorgan

Southern by choice said:


> Not sure if it still is or if formulation has changed but Red Cell contained Bovine liver products.



They must have cause now it says "Contain no beef product ingredients" right on the container and i called them and they said no ruminate proteins are in red cell currently.


----------



## misfitmorgan

Goat Whisperer said:


> Nope, still not in stock. Just checked again. You got me all excited though- I was really hoping they had it! I've been looking constantly. Thankfully we have the toltrazuirl, but I've been looking for others.
> 
> @JenniferDuBay
> We own a scope and run our own fecals, using the McMasters method.
> 
> We run a several fecals a few weeks apart on any new goats we bring in. We want to catch any parasite bloom before we have a sick or dead goat.
> 
> We run a fecal before breeding does and after kidding. Kidding generally causes a parasite bloom.
> 
> We run a fecals on kids periodically on kids to check for parasites and cocci.
> 
> We run fecals whenever we suspect a problem. We know our goats pretty well and can usually tell if they are starting to get wormy.
> 
> If we know a hoat in particular is having problems of any kind we check the fecal.
> 
> More later



https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?gas=di-methox
This shows in stock for 3 of the 4


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## TAH

Possibly


----------



## sadieml

Tut, tut.  @JenniferDuBay -  Of course it is your fault your goats have been mauled by raindrops!  You must beg forgiveness and give multiple treats.  They may have suffered irreparable damage, and can only be consoled with the yummiest treats, affection and groveling.  I feel I should refer you to Immutable Goat Fact #1 - Goats melt. You must never allow goats to be rained upon.

This fact is SO important to the goats that it is repeated periodically throughout the IGF list.  Yes, yes, you are a naughty human.  Please, pay your penance and your Goatie overlords will forgive you. (They are very generous with us, the weak humans who serve them.)


----------



## chiques chicks




----------



## JenniferDuBay

sadieml said:


> Tut, tut.  @JenniferDuBay -  Of course it is your fault your goats have been mauled by raindrops!  You must beg forgiveness and give multiple treats.  They may have suffered irreparable damage, and can only be consoled with the yummiest treats, affection and groveling.  I feel I should refer you to Immutable Goat Fact #1 - Goats melt. You must never allow goats to be rained upon.
> 
> This fact is SO important to the goats that it is repeated periodically throughout the IGF list.  Yes, yes, you are a naughty human.  Please, pay your penance and your Goatie overlords will forgive you. (They are very generous with us, the weak humans who serve them.)



What's funny is that I put a kiddie pool in their enclosure yesterday, and the kids were sleeping in it when I got back with myrtle. Rain is awful! Goats melt! Except... if it's hot. Then goats melt in other ways? LOL


----------



## Green Acres Farm

JenniferDuBay said:


> What's funny is that I put a kiddie pool in their enclosure yesterday, and the kids were sleeping in it when I got back with myrtle. Rain is awful! Goats melt! Except... if it's hot. Then goats melt in other ways? LOL




They like water, but ONLY if it is their choice!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Most likely it was not the Safeguard, that is usually a good slow wormer. You have to worm for 3-5 days in a row and then repeat in 10 days. But the dose you gave you is what is on the package and it will not work for goats. You need to use Safeguard at 3x the listed dosage...1cc/10 lbs.



Fecal test showed barberpole worms. I'm on day 4 of worming them with safeguard. The package says it takes care of this type, but I'm just doublechecking that it does. Also, Lily has barberpole worms as well. I am not able to handle her yet-I touched her today! Do you have any suggestions on how to get her meds?


----------



## babsbag

What is the dosage you are using on the Safeguard? I don't think you can reliably get the meds in Lily unless you can catch her...always a challenge at my place too. But if you give her Ivermectin you only have to do it once vs. 5 days. 

Did they give you a count on the worms or just say that they had them?


----------



## Fullhousefarm

babsbag said:


> What is the dosage you are using on the Safeguard? I don't think you can reliably get the meds in Lily unless you can catch her...always a challenge at my place too. But if you give her Ivermectin you only have to do it once vs. 5 days.
> 
> Did they give you a count on the worms or just say that they had them?



Safeguard works for some herds and not in others here in FL. If you use it for three days at least then do a fecal in 10-14 days you will know how well it worked. If it didn't take the count way down you'll need to go with something else. My vet says 1cc/10 lb on safeguard- not the dose on the package. One vet says one dose, another vet says  days in a row. Difference of opinion there. 

My vet has recommended Quest (horse wormer tube is under $20) for BP worms. 1cc/100 lbs (can slightly overdose with no problems.) I use 1/2 cc for my Nigerians and juniors under 50# (most are probably closer to 40-45#) and 1 cc for the ones that re 75# and up. I measure it into a syringe and give orally. One dose, then repeat in 10-12 days if needed. You can buy goat drench of the same chemical (cydectin) but it's a lot more $$.  Valbazen has worked in our herd as well. We use 1cc/20 lb dose.


----------



## babsbag

@Fullhousefarm  and @Green Acres Farm 

Remember that the pregnancy status of Myrtle and possibly Lilly is unknown so that limits some of the wormers. I don't know which ones without looking it up. Do either of you know?

Ivermectin has always worked for me and I seldom have to use anything so I am not a worm guru.


----------



## Fullhousefarm

b





babsbag said:


> @Fullhousefarm  and @Green Acres Farm
> 
> Remember that the pregnancy status of Myrtle and possibly Lilly is unknown so that limits some of the wormers. I don't know which ones without looking it up. Do either of you know?
> 
> Ivermectin has always worked for me and I seldom have to use anything so I am not a worm guru.



Unfortunately Florida is just horrible for parasites. No freeze, wet all the time and hot. At least in CA you get the dry heat and they die.

Valbazen in a big NO during pregnancy, though it's supposed to be safe in the last month. I don' know anyone who actually advises it. Cydectin, Ivermectin, Safeguard are all fine for bred does.

@babsbag  - I grew up in Redding. Totally different hot between there and here, but better than cold any day!

ETA: Here is my favorite place for worm info overall. Scientific and evidence based. http://www.wormx.info/


----------



## lalabugs

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm has a list of wormers and does say what are safe for pregnant does.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> @Fullhousefarm  and @Green Acres Farm
> 
> Remember that the pregnancy status of Myrtle and possibly Lilly is unknown so that limits some of the wormers. I don't know which ones without looking it up. Do either of you know?
> 
> Ivermectin has always worked for me and I seldom have to use anything so I am not a worm guru.


@Fullhousefarm @Green Acres Farm etc

Myrtle was wormed last week, with safeguard, so I shouldn't need to worry for another week or so? Either way, I'll dose her and do a fecal run then. Lily is only 5 months, could she actually be pregnant? I think I'm starting to see what 'skinny' looks like on a goat, there's a dip under her hip bone, but she's had almost nothing but hay for the past 3 days due to not being tame- Could that lead to that dip, and more importantly, I know you can't really tell when a goat is pregnant, is that true when she's skinny? And, for that matter, if a goat can be pregnant at 5 months, Petunia could be pregnant as well, she's a complete unknown as far as history goes. It's going to be a fun surprise in... *checks watch* anywhere from now until 149 days from now.

Also, I'm really wondering about Petunia. She seems so, so, so skinny compared to Lily and Myrtle. She's just got this huge barrel gut to her, (and what is with that? The other two don't) but nothing at all on her neck and legs. I can feel the bones on her spine. I was giving her a cup in the morning and at night when I came on here to ask about it, she still has solid poo, and I raised her intake to 1.5 cups yesterday. Today she had a poo that was less well formed, but not watery, just like the pebbles stuck together... sort of like (sorry for the mental picture) a nut log? Should I cut back to 1 cup again?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Fullhousefarm said:


> b
> 
> Unfortunately Florida is just horrible for parasites. No freeze, wet all the time and hot. At least in CA you get the dry heat and they die.
> 
> Valbazen in a big NO during pregnancy, though it's supposed to be safe in the last month. I don' know anyone who actually advises it. Cydectin, Ivermectin, Safeguard are all fine for bred does.
> 
> @babsbag  - I grew up in Redding. Totally different hot between there and here, but better than cold any day!
> 
> ETA: Here is my favorite place for worm info overall. Scientific and evidence based. http://www.wormx.info/



I let Lily's previous owners know about her worm status, in case they wanted to worm their goats. They told me she'd been wormed with Cydectin oral sheep drench on the 4th of july. Can I give her another dose of that, or is it too soon?


----------



## babsbag

You can worm her again, often they tell you to repeat the worming in 10 days so you should be fine. 

@Fullhousefarm A few years back I spent a few weeks in AL in July and Oct. and a weekend in Florida in May. Sorry, I'll take my cold over your humidity any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I love our weather. I lived in a more temperate part of the state for 23 years and I do miss not being able to reliably grow citrus and some stone fruits, and some flowers, like fuchsias. But I still enjoy the very warm summer evenings with no wind that I never had before.  CA born and raised and most likely died.


----------



## Latestarter

DIED?!?!   HUH? You some sort of zombie goat mistress? I could accept WILL die... Well, maybe not accept, but understand.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> You can worm her again, often they tell you to repeat the worming in 10 days so you should be fine.
> 
> @Fullhousefarm A few years back I spent a few weeks in AL in July and Oct. and a weekend in Florida in May. Sorry, I'll take my cold over your humidity any day of the week and twice on Sunday. I love our weather. I lived in a more temperate part of the state for 23 years and I do miss not being able to reliably grow citrus and some stone fruits, and some flowers, like fuchsias. But I still enjoy the very warm summer evenings with no wind that I never had before.  CA born and raised and most likely died.



I moved to florida from Minnesota two months ago. Worse, I'm a citiot  So moving across the country, and to a VERY rural area- I'm over 30 minutes to the nearest walmart. It's a lifestyle change, but something I've wanted.


----------



## babsbag

@Latestarter, I guess I was thinking about my epitaph.  Haven't died yet, but maybe by the end of the week if daytime temps don't go below 102°.

I understand the citiot. That is one thing I really like about where I live. We have almost no neighbors and there is open land all around me. The overall mind set of the county and adjacent counties is still very rural. And yet I have a Walmart and TSC withing 4 miles and just about every other store within 10 miles...the best of both worlds.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

babsbag said:


> And yet I have a TSC withing 4 miles and just about every other store within 10 miles...the best of both worlds.



Lucky!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

babsbag said:


> I understand the citiot. That is one thing I really like about where I live. We have almost no neighbors and there is open land all around me. The overall mind set of the county and adjacent counties is still very rural. And yet I have a Walmart and TSC withing 4 miles and just about every other store within 10 miles...the best of both worlds.


OK that's just weird...
Sorry Babs, you need to know the truth 

I can't imagine having a walmart that close.  

Just kidding of course


----------



## babsbag

But it sure is handy when you need those emergency kidding supplies at 12:00 AM.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I thought the same thing!


----------



## TAH

babsbag said:


> But it sure is handy when you need those emergency kidding supplies at 12:00 AM.


We live 4 miles from one or we use to. Sadly in Seward Alaska there are no vets that work with goats are any livestock. Not is there a wall Mart within two hours away.

So being well prepared will be my only option.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

I know y'all said to go slow with putting weight on Petunia, but I'm wondering how long do you think it will take? Every time I look at her versus myrtle or lily, it crushes me seeing how skinny she is. I just want to know when I should start worrying.


----------



## chiques chicks

Is she eating/ drinking? Color getting better? Fecals improving? Cost in good confusion? Overall appearance healthy/ happy? I wouldn't worry. I'm not an expert, at all. I've only had goats since November.

It takes time for goats to become comfortable in their new surroundings/herd. It took about two months for my second additions to be friendly towards me and my other goat I had gotten them as friends for. Now they are all friendly to the point of annoying ( in a good way) and all play/sleep/browse together. 

Just watch her, observe and spend time with them, and give it time. You were thrown into a rough situation and are doing a good job the way it seems. Don't force weight onto her, just keep her healthy and let her eat at her pace. My Nigerian is a rotund little guy, my mini nubs, much more lean.

Now let them go destroy all your poison ivy! ( That's my goat's job)


----------



## babsbag

I would feel comfortable upping her feed a little each week, maybe 1/2 cup. What are giving her other than hay?  Are her fecals clear?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

chiques chicks said:


> Is she eating/ drinking? Color getting better? Fecals improving? Cost in good confusion? Overall appearance healthy/ happy? I wouldn't worry. I'm not an expert, at all. I've only had goats since November.
> 
> It takes time for goats to become comfortable in their new surroundings/herd. It took about two months for my second additions to be friendly towards me and my other goat I had gotten them as friends for. Now they are all friendly to the point of annoying ( in a good way) and all play/sleep/browse together.
> 
> Just watch her, observe and spend time with them, and give it time. You were thrown into a rough situation and are doing a good job the way it seems. Don't force weight onto her, just keep her healthy and let her eat at her pace. My Nigerian is a rotund little guy, my mini nubs, much more lean.
> 
> Now let them go destroy all your poison ivy! ( That's my goat's job)





babsbag said:


> I would feel comfortable upping her feed a little each week, maybe 1/2 cup. What are giving her other than hay?  Are her fecals clear?



She's eating and drinking like a pig. I've got her on 1.5c goat pellets morning and night. Morning she gets a 1/4c BOSS and at night 1/4c alfalfa pellets, and all the coastal hay she can consume. I've not seen much improvement in her color, but when she was getting out of the pool yesterday I was brushing her and noticed fleas. I'm going to assume that's why she's anemic, and gave her a DE scrub today, I'll vaccuum it off her tonight. Her poop softened a bit when I increased from 1c to 1.5c, but it's already gone back to being solid. Her coat doesn't gleam, not like myrtle's does, but neither does lily's, could that be due to the color? Overall, she's super happy. She follows me around the pen with her little tail wagging like a puppy. I actually let her out of the pen because she's more than willing to let me just walk her right back in when I'm done outside. Super tame, super nice, super happy.


----------



## misfitmorgan

It takes a long time to put the weight back on.

Say hello to Ella




We couldnt figure out what was wrong with her, she just kept getting thinner and thinner. We did finally figure it out..in mid-may. It is now the first week of August and she has put on maybe 20-25lbs since this picture as well as growing a full new coat. We feed her hot hay, a half cup of BOSS, a cup of Beet shreds and 2.5lbs of sweet goat grain per day. We tried some show goat feeds but she wasnt to keen on them and they didnt seem to work better. We asked the Vet about something like weight builder for horses she did not advise it. We need to pick up some calf manna though, that should helpm too i was told on my "wasting away thread."

I will someday get a recent pic of Ella.....someday..


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Sounds like you saw lice. Good catch! It can make them anemic if it gets to a certain point, but I would still check her fecal again. Generally, when they are loaded with external parasites they will have internal parasites as well. Not always, but most of the time here in NC anyway.

You will need to treat ALL the goats, not just her. You might not see lice on the other goats right now, but if they have been living together they are pretty much guaranteed to have it. DE may or may not take care of it. It seems to help, but not fully eradicate it in my experience.

Whenever we have had it, I bathe them with permethrin. The dosage is on the label.

Its going to take time for her to get her color back and gain weight. What are the pellets you are feeding her? Are you giving minerals yet? You could give a small amount of Calf Manna, I've used it and have had good success.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

misfitmorgan said:


> It takes a long time to put the weight back on.
> 
> Say hello to Ella
> View attachment 20264
> We couldnt figure out what was wrong with her, she just kept getting thinner and thinner. We did finally figure it out..in mid-may. It is now the first week of August and she has put on maybe 20-25lbs since this picture as well as growing a full new coat. We feed her hot hay, a half cup of BOSS, a cup of Beet shreds and 2.5lbs of sweet goat grain per day. We tried some show goat feeds but she wasnt to keen on them and they didnt seem to work better. We asked the Vet about something like weight builder for horses she did not advise it. We need to pick up some calf manna though, that should helpm too i was told on my "wasting away thread."
> 
> I will someday get a recent pic of Ella.....someday..



What was wrong with her?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Green Acres Farm said:


> What was wrong with her?


I was in the middle of asking the same thing! LOL


----------



## misfitmorgan

coccidiosis....we didnt think of it because generally it does not affect adult goats. I started treatment on her on a guess as a last resort to what was wrong with her and then the vet confirmed 2 days into the course.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

misfitmorgan said:


> coccidiosis....we didnt think of it because generally it does not affect adult goats. I started treatment on her on a guess as a last resort to what was wrong with her and then the vet confirmed 2 days into the course.



I am very happy for you that it wasn't something awful like Johnes! (Not that coccidiosis isn't something awful, but Johnes is a whole new level of awful) Glad you found out what it was and she is doing well!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Goat Whisperer said:


> Sounds like you saw lice. Good catch! It can make them anemic if it gets to a certain point, but I would still check her fecal again. Generally, when they are loaded with external parasites they will have internal parasites as well. Not always, but most of the time here in NC anyway.
> 
> You will need to treat ALL the goats, not just her. You might not see lice on the other goats right now, but if they have been living together they are pretty much guaranteed to have it. DE may or may not take care of it. It seems to help, but not fully eradicate it in my experience.
> 
> Whenever we have had it, I bathe them with permethrin. The dosage is on the label.
> 
> Its going to take time for her to get her color back and gain weight. What are the pellets you are feeding her? Are you giving minerals yet? You could give a small amount of Calf Manna, I've used it and have had good success.



It'll have to do until payday, as it is I'm on a ramen diet with all the vet bills and stuff. I'm feeding them this: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Family-Farm-Goat-16-Feed-40-lbs/42010641


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> I had no idea Walmart sold goat feed! I'll have to check ours. How much does it cost?



Not much 12-13 bucks? Not sure, the better half bought it.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

JenniferDuBay said:


> Not much 12-13 bucks? Not sure, the better half bought it.


Not bad. The kind I get (for the regular herd, not milking) is $15.50. Do you know what the calcium/phosphorus ratio is on that feed?


----------



## Southern by choice

misfitmorgan said:


> i have not had a fecal done because we just got done paying out $800 in vet bills from the last 3 months and we are getting ready to send this years herd test in so that will be more...so i dont have money to have the vet out again right this minute but i am getting really worried about her.





misfitmorgan said:


> We did finally figure it out..in mid-may. It is now the first week of August and she has put on maybe 20-25lbs since this picture as well as growing a full new coat.



 I went back to your thread. I am not understanding why the vet did NOT do fecals as a first step. This is a no brainer and could have saved you significantly both financially and emotionally.

I hope others following this thread and yours will start realizing that running a fecal is one of the MOST important factors in goat care. 
I am so happy that you figured it out in the end and the goats are doing well!  



Green Acres Farm said:


> Well, her coat not gleaming would be due to the fleas


Deficiency can also cause this, as well as internal parasites.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> I went back to your thread. I am not understanding why the vet did NOT do fecals as a first step. This is a no brainer and could have saved you significantly both financially and emotionally.
> 
> I hope others following this thread and yours will start realizing that running a fecal is one of the MOST important factors in goat care.
> I am so happy that you figured it out in the end and the goats are doing well!
> 
> 
> Deficiency can also cause this, as well as internal parasites.



My vet didn't do one, either, until I asked. At least now I know.


----------



## misfitmorgan

Southern by choice said:


> I went back to your thread. I am not understanding why the vet did NOT do fecals as a first step. This is a no brainer and could have saved you significantly both financially and emotionally.
> 
> I hope others following this thread and yours will start realizing that running a fecal is one of the MOST important factors in goat care.
> I am so happy that you figured it out in the end and the goats are doing well!
> 
> 
> Deficiency can also cause this, as well as internal parasites.



The vet bills were for other critters


----------



## babsbag

Another way to treat the fleas or lice is poultry dust. I just sprinkle a very liberal dose of it down their spine. I will repeat in a few weeks.  Did you get them the loose goat minerals? Also, walmart should sell Calf Manna...at least ours does. 

Our Walmart as the goat feed randomly. It is 16% with ammonium choride added. I have "heard" that it is made my Manna Pro but can't back that up with evidence.


----------



## babsbag

It is in the pet section. Ours has an area that has the feed for goat, chicken, pig, horse, chick started, calf manna, etc. They also carry some of the horse wormers.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Another way to treat the fleas or lice is poultry dust. I just sprinkle a very liberal dose of it down their spine. I will repeat in a few weeks.  Did you get them the loose goat minerals? Also, walmart should sell Calf Manna...at least ours does.
> 
> Our Walmart as the goat feed randomly. It is 16% with ammonium choride added. I have "heard" that it is made my Manna Pro but can't back that up with evidence.


They have loose minerals, but I've only seen lily eat them


----------



## Southern by choice

You may want to try some Chaffhaye. 
Chaffhaye will help with weight, general nutrition and for picky goats that won't touch the mineral yet they need it... you can mix it in. You have to find a Chaffhaye dealer to get it.


----------



## TAH

When we got our nubian he was pretty small and skinny. We used Chaffhaye. It worked really well.


----------



## NH homesteader

Can someone tell me if chaffhaye is absurdly expensive? Is it something you'd get only for animals having trouble gaining weight or is it a good thing to add to any diet? I've never heard of it,  just looked at their website.  I have one little goat  who had a rough start (worms) that  I thought it might help but was curious if I could hear more about it first? Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread!


----------



## Southern by choice

NH homesteader said:


> Can someone tell me if chaffhaye is absurdly expensive? Is it something you'd get only for animals having trouble gaining weight or is it a good thing to add to any diet? I've never heard of it,  just looked at their website.  I have one little goat  who had a rough start (worms) that  I thought it might help but was curious if I could hear more about it first? Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread!



We are busy this evening with herd management stuff (fecals and blood draws) but maybe later if I have time I will share our experience with it in another thread!


----------



## babsbag

I don't have the experience with it that others might, I have only used it twice. It is about $15-16 a bag which isn't too bad for a supplemental feed. My goats like it ok, but I don't. I can't throw it into the feeder from across the fence and I have too many goats to go in the pen and get mauled at every feeding time. Also, once you open a bag you need to feed it ASAP as it will mold. Even in nice no humidity CA my bag got moldy after about a week. If I was feeding the bag upon opening it it would be ok, but I was trying to feed one goat that needed some extra nutrition. 

The people I know that feed it regularly love it. Just doesn't work for me. 

@JenniferDuBay You might want to try a different mineral. I don't know what you are using but I used to use Purina and no one ate it. I figured that goats know what they need and that they were ok. A necropsy on two goats proved that idea wrong. I switched to Sweetlix Magnum Milk and I go through 20 lbs a week...they devour it.


----------



## misfitmorgan

You might try a feed mill for cheaper grain/feed stuffs if you have those by you. We get 50lbs of goat sweet feed from the mill atm for 12.50/50lbs. I might need to swap to that Sweetlix Babs, atm we have an all around livestock loose mineral with copper...and we tried putting out some Manna Pro goat mineral but we still have 45lbs of general livestock loose mineral after 4 months and 7lbs of the manna pro after a month and a half for 14+ goats. I was assuming they were taking what they need but now im not thinking so. I believe i should be going thru 3-5lbs/week.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

I thought it would take longer for the goat girls to warm up to me, but tonight at the dinner meal, I was being mauled! I usually let petunia out to nom the grass around me while I fill their bowls, but today Lily decided to join her! (What a heart attack... I didn't think I would be able to get her back in, should have known the shaking of a food bowl would do it.) Even Myrtle decided to hop out of the house and glare balefully at me from three feet away. I feel loved! The DM seems have taken care of Toony's issue completely, I split her hair all over and didn't see one flea/lice thingie, when the last time I looked she was covered in them (to be fair, she was wet...) Anyway, I dumped a whole bag all over their pen. I can't get the other goats to stay still enough to deal with this, but I figure they've warmed up this quickly, give it a week and I'll be able to hook lily without too much issue. Myrtle is eating out of my hand now, and I can give Lily brief pets on her head when she's eating. (Goats are like guys, right? The way to their hearts is through their stomachs...  ) I did get new minerals as per the suggestion, and they all fight over it, so I'd call that a success, though I need to get two more to reduce fighting. (Nice problem to have, right?) Anyway I haven't seen chaffhaye around, and I'm not sure I want something that'll mold so quickly, with the amount of humidity this place has. I've been trying to feed them more alfalfa, though no one but myrtle likes the pellets. (Actually a little handy as she gets spooked off her feed from the kids, and doesn't get as much.) Petunia actually eats around them, but still manages to finish first, the little glutton <3


----------



## Latestarter

Wow, sounds a lot more positive than the way you started out! So happy things are getting to "normal" the way they're SUPPOSED to be! Have no fear, the owner/controller of the food is always loved by all eventually.  Seems to me you're hooked!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> Wow, sounds a lot more positive than the way you started out! So happy things are getting to "normal" the way they're SUPPOSED to be! Have no fear, the owner/controller of the food is always loved by all eventually.  Seems to me you're hooked!



Hello, my name is Jennifer, and I'm a goat addict... Kidding; well, if Myrtle is pregnant, anyway  But yes, it's nice to have something go right this week! I figured y'all deserve to hear the good stuff, too, right? We'll see in a few days after I deworm them all again and what the fecal says


----------



## Latestarter

Ummm just to point it out, there IS a goats anonymous thread... #justsayin


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> Ummm just to point it out, there IS a goats anonymous thread... #justsayin



You're just saying that because in 2 weeks I went from no goats to two goats to one goat to three goats. Aaaaaaaand you may have a point. TINY STOMPY FEET GOATS, WITH THEIR TINY LITTLE HORNS AND THE SOUNDS THEY MAKE WHEN EATING... I got it bad, man.


----------



## Latestarter

---wiping tea off the keyboard---   too funny  Wait till they start crying when you leave them... Or start screaming at you in joy when they see you. It's the whole package! OK, so maybe not quite... After you get another 6-8 goats you'll really be wanting one (or two is even better!) of them Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs) to watch over and protect your babies (and you), and for you to lavish with love and praise. THEN it will be the complete package.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> ---wiping tea off the keyboard---   too funny  Wait till they start crying when you leave them... Or start screaming at you in joy when they see you. It's the whole package! OK, so maybe not quite... After you get another 6-8 goats you'll really be wanting one (or two is even better!) of them Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs) to watch over and protect your babies (and you), and for you to lavish with love and praise. THEN it will be the complete package.



Our neighbors way way way down the street from us raise and train LGD for sale >> I'm not sure I can get much more than 3 goats on a 1/4 acre though... I have an acre total, but that's all that's goat-fenced. And the better half wants to raise a garden... << And I want to do quail... >> << *gives in to temptation and buys 30 more goats* >>


----------



## Latestarter

Well, you'd best run right out and get yourself a realtor to unload your tiny place and buy a more sprawling setup to make room for the foreseen expansion!


----------



## babsbag

Heck, I' building a dairy to justify and support my addiction.


----------



## Southern by choice

That is one reason we are moving. We need more land. We have just around 50 goats.. I think


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## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> That is one reason we are moving. We need more land. We have just around 50 goats.. I think



How much land do you have? 0_0 I just bought this place and it's paid off, so I am not moving for nothing! *squats like a hen*


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## Latestarter

Ohhhhh.... <sigh> If you'd only been introduced to the goats first....


----------



## JenniferDuBay

@Latestarter So I'm thinking myrtle is pregnant. I compared her udders in pictures from last week to what I saw today, and they seem much bigger. This is what they look like: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y299/kritter11/Ittybittyfront-1.jpg I'm not too thrilled about this since I still can't touch her. That being said, she's not a first time mother, and they were field goats, she kidded out in the field no assistance last time around, which gives me some assurance, but I still have no idea what I'm doing.

And if this is to be believed: https://edenhills.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/stages-of-goat-pregnancy/ She also has indented sides. When I went to pick her out, they weren't there. I was looking for a nice fat goat, I thought something was affecting her, but it doesn't seem like losing weight in less than a week would be possible from worms like that, but I don't know.


----------



## babsbag

I can't fine an older picture if you posted it but that picture sure looks suspect. That udder looks tight, and that is usually an indicator that there are pretty close. You can't catch her at all?  You may notice her standing off by herself when labor starts. If you can't catch her all you can do is watch and chances are she'll be fine. You can take the babies as she has them and put them in a separate pen if you have one, she should follow. You need to dip their umbilical cords in iodine, and if all goes well that is all you should need to do.


----------



## Latestarter

<snickering totally unobtrusively > Goat math I tell ya! Oh my... Wouldn't that just be the frosting on the cake?   So I'm hoping the only reason you're "not too thrilled" is because she isn't completely tamed yet? Based on what you shared, she should be OK. Oh, and from what I understand, some does get very lovey-dovey and needy right as they're about to go into labor, so maybe she'll bond with you then?  Man, for a newbie, you're covering about every base there is! 

There are lots of kidding threads on here. Wouldn't hurt to peruse a few in your copious amounts of free time  I know...   But it IS exciting!!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> <snickering totally unobtrusively > Goat math I tell ya! Oh my... Wouldn't that just be the frosting on the cake?   So I'm hoping the only reason you're "not too thrilled" is because she isn't completely tamed yet? Based on what you shared, she should be OK. Oh, and from what I understand, some does get very lovey-dovey and needy right as they're about to go into labor, so maybe she'll bond with you then?  Man, for a newbie, you're covering about every base there is!
> 
> There are lots of kidding threads on here. Wouldn't hurt to peruse a few in your copious amounts of free time  I know...   But it IS exciting!!



Yes! The only reason I'm not thrilled is because I haven't friendlied her up, yet. That, and I don't have a separate pen for mom and babies... I love babies! But if she has them before getting friendly, I might just make them bottle babies because I don't need an entire herd of goats scared of me. 



babsbag said:


> I can't fine an older picture if you posted it but that picture sure looks suspect. That udder looks tight, and that is usually an indicator that there are pretty close. You can't catch her at all?  You may notice her standing off by herself when labor starts. If you can't catch her all you can do is watch and chances are she'll be fine. You can take the babies as she has them and put them in a separate pen if you have one, she should follow. You need to dip their umbilical cords in iodine, and if all goes well that is all you should need to do.



I didn't post the picture of her from behind (the only one I have, and it was pretty crappy) But her teat in relation to her leg is totally different. I wish I had a separate pen for her, but all I have is a dog crate, and that's not okay for giving birth. I'm hoping I'm just being paranoid, but her teats are just huge. I haven't seen any discharge, or anything like that. 

Additionally, what does it mean when a goat raises their tail every time you're near them?


----------



## Southern by choice

The udder pic looks to me like there is definitely fill.

As far as her not being friendly...

We had a doe we brought in at 3-4 months... we waited for this breeding and this doe. Her dam is a jerk! Her dam was handled etc but it is just her.. her personality and her offspring take after that.
This is a Nigerian Dwarf BTW.
Anyway, despite the handling she had from the breeder and then by us she remained, like her mom, a snot. A VERY unenjoyable goat.
Winter of last year she was bred. Kidded in March. 
This goat never wants you too touch her or anything- a toatl brat.
Have I emphasized how much of a snot she was? 
Notice I said WAS! 
The day she went into labor ( very fast BTW) we put her in a stall she pushed out came kid we pulled kid immediately. 2nd kid same thing.
By pulled I mean whisked away- she never cleaned or saw the kids.
Took kids to house cleaned them up, I stayed with the doe and waited for afterbirth etc. After that passed, walked her to the milkstand  cleaned her up and then she got milked out for colostrum.

She had never been milked, a first freshener, she stood there perfect. Often in their mind they just know "something" should be milking.

That was the end of the jerky snotty goat!
She thought WE were the babies. She became loving and affectionate and is no longer a brat.

Her kids were bottle raised. This is where it gets interesting as far as how much genetics and temperament play a role.

NEVER out of all the kids we have raised on our farm, whether dam raised or bottle raised, have we had kids we didn't like.


Her twins BOTTLE RAISED mind you- were jerks!
First time I ever thought I can't stand these goats!
Friends would come and visit, many come to see our babies and love them... this was the first time ever that across the board each person said... they are awful. 
I would say- I KNOW 

They are 5 months now and MUCH MUCH better. Still hope 
Their mom is a lovey now. We are her "babies". She is a great milker and a beautiful doe...

I said all that to say pulling the kids MAY help with the bond with you.

One of our other goats was always a love but we pulled her first kid as well... she thinks we are her kids too!


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## Latestarter

Be a "REAL" goat mom and let her have the kid(s) in your living room! Isn't that why it's named such?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> The udder pic looks to me like there is definitely fill.
> 
> As far as her not being friendly...
> 
> We had a doe we brought in at 3-4 months... we waited for this breeding and this doe. Her dam is a jerk! Her dam was handled etc but it is just her.. her personality and her offspring take after that.
> This is a Nigerian Dwarf BTW.
> Anyway, despite the handling she had from the breeder and then by us she remained, like her mom, a snot. A VERY unenjoyable goat.
> Winter of last year she was bred. Kidded in March.
> This goat never wants you too touch her or anything- a toatl brat.
> Have I emphasized how much of a snot she was?
> Notice I said WAS!
> The day she went into labor ( very fast BTW) we put her in a stall she pushed out came kid we pulled kid immediately. 2nd kid same thing.
> By pulled I mean whisked away- she never cleaned or saw the kids.
> Took kids to house cleaned them up, I stayed with the doe and waited for afterbirth etc. After that passed, walked her to the milkstand  cleaned her up and then she got milked out for colostrum.
> 
> She had never been milked, a first freshener, she stood there perfect. Often in their mind they just know "something" should be milking.
> 
> That was the end of the jerky snotty goat!
> She thought WE were the babies. She became loving and affectionate and is no longer a brat.
> 
> Her kids were bottle raised. This is where it gets interesting as far as how much genetics and temperament play a role.
> 
> NEVER out of all the kids we have raised on our farm, whether dam raised or bottle raised, have we had kids we didn't like.
> 
> 
> Her twins BOTTLE RAISED mind you- were jerks!
> First time I ever thought I can't stand these goats!
> Friends would come and visit, many come to see our babies and love them... this was the first time ever that across the board each person said... they are awful.
> I would say- I KNOW
> 
> They are 5 months now and MUCH MUCH better. Still hope
> Their mom is a lovey now. We are her "babies". She is a great milker and a beautiful doe...
> 
> I said all that to say pulling the kids MAY help with the bond with you.
> 
> One of our other goats was always a love but we pulled her first kid as well... she thinks we are her kids too!



All this just makes me hope to get kids off Petunia. If Myrtle throws crappy attitude kids- well... this is Florida, there is a large population of people who would be happy to have them for dinner, even if I don't.


----------



## Southern by choice

More than likely they won't be. Ours turned out great and the kids at 5 months are MUCH better and I think log term will be fine.

BUT bad attitude mommas dam raising tends to influence the offspring to be the same.
Of course all these goats are new to you and there is an adjustment period.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

FINALLY got a picture of Myrtle's backside.







It's still grainy as hell, but it's what I have. We're arguing if that line on her bottom is stringy discharge or not.

Here are more grainy, poorly lit pictures:












@Southern by choice @babsbag @Green Acres Farm @whoeverelse


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> Any news?



Nothing on the baby front. I'm beginning to think I'm imagining it. Lily is getting a lot more friendly, but if Myrtle panics and runs from me, Lily does too, though it's pretty obvious she isn't actually scared. (This goat is now walking through my legs at feeding time. She ain't askerd of me! lol) Petunia looks like she's fattening up. I've been weighing her, she's put on a few pounds. I'm building a milking stand this weekend.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Out of curiousity, is there a reason that she would be late with her birth? Everything I've read says the babies drop within 24 hours of labor, and her tail has been laying flat up on her back for days. Anyone got an opinion on this? (Am I crazy? Is she even pregnant?!? THIS IS DRIVING ME NUTS)


----------



## Latestarter

It appears you are being introduced to "doe code". This is where the doe intentionally strives to drive you, the owner, crazy. They do it by indicating "whatever", when "whatever" isn't really the case at all. Doing anything necessary to make you believe the opposite of what is the real situation. Then when you finally give up, that's when they'll do what you've been waiting on for so long. Like giving birth during daylight hours on a nice clear and comfortable day...  Nahhhh why do THAT? They'll wait till the middle of the night when it's raining cats and dogs or in the middle of a blizzard on the coldest night of the year... that kind of thing.

I think there's a thread here somewhere about doe code and all its nuances...

Edit to add, just because YOU think she's late, doesn't mean that she's late or that SHE thinks she's late...


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> It appears you are being introduced to "doe code". This is where the doe intentionally strives to drive you, the owner, crazy. They do it by indicating "whatever", when "whatever" isn't really the case at all. Doing anything necessary to make you believe the opposite of what is the real situation. Then when you finally give up, that's when they'll do what you've been waiting on for so long. Like giving birth during daylight hours on a nice clear and comfortable day...  Nahhhh why do THAT? They'll wait till the middle of the night when it's raining cats and dogs or in the middle of a blizzard on the coldest night of the year... that kind of thing.
> 
> I think there's a thread here somewhere about doe code and all its nuances...
> 
> Edit to add, just because YOU think she's late, doesn't mean that she's late or that SHE thinks she's late...



Suuuuure that's what "latestarter" would say about being late  Thanks for the help


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> Well, you'd best run right out and get yourself a realtor to unload your tiny place and buy a more sprawling setup to make room for the foreseen expansion!



So, funny story, our house got hit by a tree. This house is old and out of code, it would be better to replace it than fix it. And it will cost 90k to replace this house... We could get a 5 acre homestead for that same price within 30 miles of our workplace. We're going to look for homes, now.


----------



## Southern by choice

JenniferDuBay said:


> So, funny story, our house got hit by a tree. This house is old and out of code, it would be better to replace it than fix it. And it will cost 90k to replace this house... We could get a 5 acre homestead for that same price within 30 miles of our workplace. We're going to look for homes, now.



 
I can't imagine being able to buy a homestead for that price! I need to live where you do. 

Sorry your house got hit.


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## Latestarter

Wow, I don't remember how far back I posted that, but I swear I wasn't trying to hex or jinx you. From the sounds of it, this will actually work out better for you in the end. Sorry you had to go about it this way though. Hope you didn't lose to much.


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## babsbag

Sorry about the house, glad you are ok, but now for the important question... did your goats ever have babies?


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Sorry about the house, glad you are ok, but now for the important question... did your goats ever have babies?



 No. We put a baby monitor out there, expecting to hear her screaming at some point. And we did. She just learned screaming gets me out there, and hey, when I'm out there- can we have a scoop of food?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> I can't imagine being able to buy a homestead for that price! I need to live where you do.
> 
> Sorry your house got hit.



Well, they're mostly mobile homes, and the property isn't fenced, many of which need work. But the land is at least double what we have now, and the one I'm voting for is 8+ acres! 



Latestarter said:


> Wow, I don't remember how far back I posted that, but I swear I wasn't trying to hex or jinx you. From the sounds of it, this will actually work out better for you in the end. Sorry you had to go about it this way though. Hope you didn't lose to much.



You did, too. I heretofore blame latestarter for all of this mess. Can I say how excited I actually am by all this? The current house is, how do I put this, a piece of goat berries. My parents just got service connected for my father, after a 10 year battle. In that time I had lived with them, and put most of my paycheck into allowing them to keep their house after my father got diagnosed with MS. I'd just moved out when they got service connected, and now they're saying they'll buy us a new house. It's absolutely mind bogglingly incredible.


----------



## babsbag

JenniferDuBay said:


> No. We put a baby monitor out there, expecting to hear her screaming at some point. And we did. She just learned screaming gets me out there, and hey, when I'm out there- can we have a scoop of food?



Smart aren't they. I had a friend tell me once that if they had opposable thumbs they could beat us at chess.   

Do you still think they are bred?


----------



## Latestarter

So sorry to hear about your dads condition. I guess a lot of Nam vets who had the pleasure of bathing in agent orange are now having these issues and uncle sam is making them go through hell once more to get compensated/helped. I really hope that your next place works out to be all you want it to be.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> So sorry to hear about your dads condition. I guess a lot of Nam vets who had the pleasure of bathing in agent orange are now having these issues and uncle sam is making them go through hell once more to get compensated/helped. I really hope that your next place works out to be all you want it to be.



Not a Nam vet, he worked with nuclear radiation, and has white matter on the brain. It's not a clear cut MS case, but he seems to be responding to the drugs. It was one heck of a road to getting service connected, though. Hats off to my mother who kept filing, and filing and filing. God help a vet that needs the assistance and doesn't have a loved one as ornery as my mother. I hope the place works out, too. We go and see it on monday, fingers crossed it'll be what we're looking for and that they'll come down when they hear the words "cash in hand."


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Smart aren't they. I had a friend tell me once that if they had opposable thumbs they could beat us at chess.
> 
> Do you still think they are bred?



No clue. I'm not going to do a blood test until a few months have passed and I can do all the goats blood test. Or I might just do it when I have to load them up to the new property. Who knows. Right now it's still impossible to touch myrtle, but Lily lets me run hands all over her when she eats.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Green Acres Farm said:


> Are you in FL? There are so many fallen trees and live wires! 3rd day without power/water here...



Yes. If you click "8 acres" on my previous post, you can actually see the area we're looking. We've got a list of about 18 houses that would work for our (and the surprise goat's ) needs, but for the price, that's the coolest one, imo.


----------



## babsbag

WOW!!! Looks really nice. Is that a second home on the land?
When I think of Florida I think beaches and sand, always surprises me to see trees and woods. How far is that from where the Tupelo honey is "grown"?


----------



## Latestarter

Oh my... sand, yes, lots of sand! and pine trees, and don't forget the scrub palms. They grow like weeds and just about nothing will eat them. In 5 years, they'll overrun a property. I think the add said 2 other trailers on the property that could be rented out. The one you're buying to live in looks pretty decent, but the other that they showed a pic of... ummm well, sorry, I wouldn't want to live in it... it looks a bit "rugged"...  And if that's the better of the other 2, the one not shown might only be fit for storage or a chicken coop or something. Guess we'll have to wait till after you go and see it and tell us (if you wish to of course).


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Sorry your house got hit! Hope you find your perfect home.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> WOW!!! Looks really nice. Is that a second home on the land?
> When I think of Florida I think beaches and sand, always surprises me to see trees and woods. How far is that from where the Tupelo honey is "grown"?



Florida looks surprisingly like minnesota woods, minus the palms, of course. And tupelo honey is actually mostly grown in georgia. You get some along the florida state line, but not really.



Latestarter said:


> it looks a bit "rugged"...  And if that's the better of the other 2, the one not shown might only be fit for storage or a chicken coop or something. Guess we'll have to wait till after you go and see it and tell us (if you wish to of course).



Agreed. I would probably just sell them for scrap. As long as one is in move-in condition, it's all I care about.

Here are the others I am looking at: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7


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## Latestarter

I hope you find just the right one! at the right price, and not needing too much before you can move in.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So we have bought a house. It's 2.5 acres, fenced with nice fencing (though we need to cross fence- goats on the deck doesn't sound like fun ) The land looks like nice horse pasture, but I'm not seeing much in the way of foraging. What can I plant/do to make this goaty paradise?


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## Latestarter

I recommend poison ivy, poison oak and green briars.   Grats on the new place. Hope you'll share some pics once you're all settled in.


----------



## chiques chicks

I've read about a plant called Sunn Hemp, by have no personal experience. I'm probably going to try some this fall up north as it dies off over northern winter. It's said to be a good ground cover, footage and nitrogen fixer. As I said, no experience, by I found some seed at a really good price by the 50# bag, although the seed is considered "second". It is said to grow to 4-6 feet.


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## JenniferDuBay

chiques chicks said:


> I've read about a plant called Sunn Hemp, by have no personal experience. I'm probably going to try some this fall up north as it dies off over northern winter. It's said to be a good ground cover, footage and nitrogen fixer. As I said, no experience, by I found some seed at a really good price by the 50# bag, although the seed is considered "second". It is said to grow to 4-6 feet.



Great advice, thanks!


----------



## Southern by choice

JenniferDuBay said:


> goats on the deck doesn't sound like fun



Actually they are EXTRA FUN on the deck


----------



## Fullhousefarm

Southern by choice said:


> Actually they are EXTRA FUN on the deck



Yes, babies love to jump up and down the steps and they will all lay out there and watch for you to reach for the carrot/apples for mid-afternoon treats. Then, they will leave cute little goat berry treats all over the patio for you.

Here is one goat on the porch picture. I have a better one with black and white babies all oozing on the steps, but can't seem to find it...


----------



## norseofcourse

Sorry about your house, but congrats on your new place!


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## JenniferDuBay

Sooooo myrtle was pregnant. I walked out to a surprise billy this morning.


----------



## animalmom

What?  Where's the pictures?  Honestly folks you can't tell us you found a surprise and then not share it with us!  Really!  I need a wagging finger emoticon here.


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## JenniferDuBay

So sorry! Here he is... https://imgur.com/gallery/iDcVg


----------



## luvmypets

Such a cutie! I still have a few months before babies hit the ground, Im having baby fever!


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## JenniferDuBay

So what do I do now? He looks fine, mom looks fine, but that doesn't mean anything with goats


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## luvmypets

Is he nursing? Its essential he gets that colostrum


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Yeah, I've seen him nurse a bunch


----------



## norseofcourse

Dipped umbilical cord in iodine?
Made sure mom passed placenta?
Made sure kid passed his first stool (meconium)?
Took more pictures?  

Congrats!!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

norseofcourse said:


> Dipped umbilical cord in iodine?
> Made sure mom passed placenta?
> Made sure kid passed his first stool (meconium)?
> Took more pictures?
> 
> Congrats!!


Iodine yes, 

mom had him when I wasn't there. I don't see anything on the ground... now what?

Have no idea. I will need to spend more time in the goat barn.

I have more pictures, it's just a pain to upload on mobile.


----------



## norseofcourse

The placenta is about the size of a deflated football.  It's usually passed within one to several hours after birth.  I don't know how likely goats are to eat it, another goat person would have to chime in here.  Search around though, it might be buried under bedding somewhere.  Any chance a dog or something got to it?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Congrats on the kid! 

I agree with @norseofcourse

The doe could have passed the placenta and ate it before you found them. Watch her closely, if she starts acting "off" take her temp right away!

Express a few squirts of milk/colostrum from each teat to be sure everything is flowing as it should. The kids can look like they are nursing but it doesn't always mean they are. We had several calls this spring because kids that were born healthy were suddenly becoming lethargic & one died. They didn't check both teats and the colostrum was so thick the kids couldn't nurse. This was 2 different farms.

I would have the momma goats' fecal checked in about a week. The stress of kidding and hormones can cause a parasite bloom.

Any history on CDT vaccines? The kid will need to be vaccinated and if the dam wasn't she should too.

The kid should be monitored for cocci as well.


----------



## TAH

Agree with all the above,
 Congrats on the little guy


----------



## JenniferDuBay

We made the decision to sell him as a bottle baby after a few days. Myrtle has an extremely skittish attitude towards people, and no one wants that, let alone in a boy. He was bought by a woman to keep as a wether pet. I have been milking her for two days. It has been both easy and difficult. Milking itself is easy, but Myrtle, the unfriendly goat neither likes being milked nor likes me. I have to lasso her, tie her to a post and maul her. It's like a dwarven rodeo, only I don't get clown makeup. Her latest trick is simply to lie down when I milk her now. She's trying to make me juggle goats. I don't have a stanchion yet, it's not in the budget this month, but I did build an automatic milker, which should help with Myrtle's laying down protests. We'll see when the silicon dries.


----------



## babsbag

Sell her...life is too short for annoying goats. I may sound harsh, and I am partly teasing, but I have been selling off the hard to handle hard headed beasts and keeping their offspring as bottle babies. Last year I pulled some kids at about 1 week of age and would separate them until they started taking a bottle and then I would give them back to mom to nurse when I didn't want to feed them. They aren't quite as tame as a full bottle baby but much better than most of my dam raised kids. That also allowed me to sell the dam if the opportunity arose and the kids could be transitioned to a bottle with no problems.


----------



## TAH

It is very easy to tame a goat if you have the time to work with her. I have tamed 2 goats and they are some of the nicest in the herd now. 

I start with halter training. 
Put the halter on and tie her to a tree or teepost and leave her there till she stops fighting, as soon as she stops fighting reward her with there favorite treat. With tying her to something else not your self shows her you are not the issue especially when you give the treat. Once she has stopped fighting with halter on she will start to trust you, then start on leading. Take the lead rope and make it loose ask her her to walk to you if she doesn't understand what you are asking show her the treat and ask again if she does it reward. If she wants to pull start with the lead really short, if she starts to pull you ask her to halt/stop right at your side and processed to ask her to walk along side you again. It normally takes a good 15 min each day to work with her before she will be a awesome goat. 

I like to do tricks with my goats, it is gpod to have one or to tricks for them to do. I do touch it is the easiest thing for a goat to learn, have her touch tour hand and reward when she does. 

I hope this helps


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Sell her...life is too short for annoying goats. I may sound harsh, and I am partly teasing, but I have been selling off the hard to handle hard headed beasts and keeping their offspring as bottle babies. Last year I pulled some kids at about 1 week of age and would separate them until they started taking a bottle and then I would give them back to mom to nurse when I didn't want to feed them. They aren't quite as tame as a full bottle baby but much better than most of my dam raised kids. That also allowed me to sell the dam if the opportunity arose and the kids could be transitioned to a bottle with no problems.



It would be a pity to lose my first in milk goat before I get to have some. I had planned on replacing both her and Lilly when they all have babies, hopefully girls. I am going to have nothing but bottle babies from now on, it's just so much easier.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

TAH said:


> It is very easy to tame a goat if you have the time to work with her. I have tamed 2 goats and they are some of the nicest in the herd now.
> 
> I start with halter training.
> Put the halter on and tie her to a tree or teepost and leave her there till she stops fighting, as soon as she stops fighting reward her with there favorite treat. With tying her to something else not your self shows her you are not the issue especially when you give the treat. Once she has stopped fighting with halter on she will start to trust you, then start on leading. Take the lead rope and make it loose ask her her to walk to you if she doesn't understand what you are asking show her the treat and ask again if she does it reward. If she wants to pull start with the lead really short, if she starts to pull you ask her to halt/stop right at your side and processed to ask her to walk along side you again. It normally takes a good 15 min each day to work with her before she will be a awesome goat.
> 
> I like to do tricks with my goats, it is gpod to have one or to tricks for them to do. I do touch it is the easiest thing for a goat to learn, have her touch tour hand and reward when she does.
> 
> I hope this helps


Good information, thanks


----------



## TAH

JenniferDuBay said:


> Good information, thanks


Your welcome


----------



## babsbag

I have hung on to some brats so I would have milk, I understand. Since I am building a dairy I don't want any trouble makers so I have started selling the wild things. I had some that if and when I caught them they would throw themselves on the ground or jump and twist and take my fingers with them if I happen to be holding a collar. I just refuse to deal with it anymore, there are too many nice goats in the world. If I like the genetics I keep the kid and the mom has to go.  

That being said, my bottle baby bucks are kind of a pain when they are in rut. I do like my bucks to be a little more standoffish than the does.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

@JenniferDuBay if you ever breed the doe again, pull the kids immediately. The "mom hormones" will kick in and the doe will bond with you.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

@Goat Whisperer, do you pull kids from does who have raised their own kids before?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Green Acres Farm said:


> @Goat Whisperer, do you pull kids from does who have raised their own kids before?


Yes.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

Goat Whisperer said:


> Yes.


Do the does have a hard time?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

They seem to do okay. 

Most does cry a little bit, but nothing terrible. Haven't noticed a huge difference between pulling from a FF or a seasoned doe. The seasoned doe might cry a little more, but once they are getting milked 3-4 times a day the don't seem to care. I just get the kids as far away as possible and don't let the does see, smell, or hear them.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> I have hung on to some brats so I would have milk, I understand. Since I am building a dairy I don't want any trouble makers so I have started selling the wild things. I had some that if and when I caught them they would throw themselves on the ground or jump and twist and take my fingers with them if I happen to be holding a collar. I just refuse to deal with it anymore, there are too many nice goats in the world. If I like the genetics I keep the kid and the mom has to go.
> 
> That being said, my bottle baby bucks are kind of a pain when they are in rut. I do like my bucks to be a little more standoffish than the does.



So how do you get friendly, easy to handle bucks, since that's my next buy? 

At least Myrtle isn't aggressive. I rigged a sheet sling today, and it wasn't too much trouble. And she is coming around. Since we got her, she has started to let us pet her, and she follows us around the field, albeit the farthest away from us. I'll give her this milk year and we'll see where she's at. She's never been handled or milked before, so it's fair. Plus, she keeps Lily from screaming her fool head off.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Goat Whisperer said:


> They seem to do okay.
> 
> Most does cry a little bit, but nothing terrible. Haven't noticed a huge difference between pulling from a FF or a seasoned doe. The seasoned doe might cry a little more, but once they are getting milked 3-4 times a day the don't seem to care. I just get the kids as far away as possible and don't let the does see, smell, or hear them.



3-4 times a day? I've only been milking morning and night... should I do more?


----------



## TAH

JenniferDuBay said:


> 3-4 times a day? I've only been milking morning and night... should I do more?


We milked out doe that gave a gallon a day twice a day. How much are you getting from her each day?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I milk as much as I can during the first week, but I'm raising dairy animals and my goal it getting them to reach their full potential. Sounds like you are milking to relive her udder, so milking twice a day should be fine. 

I bottle raise nearly all kids born here and most my bucks are bottle babies. Much has to do with raising them, especially during the first rut. They are all friendly but do not blubber, paw, or try to mount me. Teaching them respect is key. 

I would start with a kid, you will be able to tell part of what his temperament will be like by how he comes up, how he acts when spooked, etc. Last fall I went to a farm to look at a young buck. The lady did her best to bring in good lines and had a nice little herd, but she had some family issues and needed to sell the herd. After about 10 minutes it was clear that the buck would be a fence jumper and wouldn't work in our herd. She understood and had no hard feelings- we were only looking to try and help her out- she was devastated that she needed to sell her goats.


----------



## babsbag

My favorite buck is one that I bottle raised part of the time. He isn't "married" to me, but he isn't afraid of me either. I can reach out and pet him without him running away, but he doesn't follow me everywhere and blubber all over me. My LaMancha does that...I hate it.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Goat Whisperer said:


> I milk as much as I can during the first week, but I'm raising dairy animals and my goal it getting them to reach their full potential. Sounds like you are milking to relive her udder, so milking twice a day should be fine.
> 
> I bottle raise nearly all kids born here and most my bucks are bottle babies. Much has to do with raising them, especially during the first rut. They are all friendly but do not blubber, paw, or try to mount me. Teaching them respect is key.
> 
> I would start with a kid, you will be able to tell part of what his temperament will be like by how he comes up, how he acts when spooked, etc. Last fall I went to a farm to look at a young buck. The lady did her best to bring in good lines and had a nice little herd, but she had some family issues and needed to sell the herd. After about 10 minutes it was clear that the buck would be a fence jumper and wouldn't work in our herd. She understood and had no hard feelings- we were only looking to try and help her out- she was devastated that she needed to sell her goats.



I was actually trying to milk for consumption. I'll try milking more and hope I didn't let it go too long.

So how could you tell he would be a fence jumper? And what would you look for in a buck?


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> My favorite buck is one that I bottle raised part of the time. He isn't "married" to me, but he isn't afraid of me either. I can reach out and pet him without him running away, but he doesn't follow me everywhere and blubber all over me. My LaMancha does that...I hate it.


My lamancha does the same... but I love it and I think it's adorable. She doesn't really mess with anything, but if you stick your face down at goat level, she like... breathes in your face. It's quite funny. I can really see how that would be less than ideal in a rutting goat, though.


----------



## babsbag

Less than ideal is being polite.   Not only do they reek, which is also being polite, but they pee on themselves and you too if you happen to be in the wrong place at the right time. But most annoying is constantly watching my back, not for butting behavior, but mounting behavior. I  do not need a 200+ pound goat to love me quite that much.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Less than ideal is being polite.   Not only do they reek, which is also being polite, but they pee on themselves and you too if you happen to be in the wrong place at the right time. But most annoying is constantly watching my back, not for butting behavior, but mounting behavior. I  do not need a 200+ pound goat to love me quite that much.


 That is... quite the visual.


----------



## NH homesteader

And this is why I won't keep full size bucks here


----------



## JenniferDuBay

NH homesteader said:


> And this is why I won't keep full size bucks here



I have my heart set on Nigerians, Petunia not withstanding. I can lift Myrtle, even being a pain, all by my lonesome, which is handy. How big do the male nigies get to?


----------



## babsbag

I guess I failed to mention that my Nigi is the worst as far as behavior? But it doesn't bother me as much as he isn't as big. He DOES NOT like me, but doesn't mean he isn't in my face during rut, especially if I have just handled a doe in heat. Don't let their small size fool you; my Nigi is the one literally head slamming the gate to get to those does and he torments my Alpine relentlessly.  It is really too bad he makes such beautiful kids.


----------



## Latestarter

Maybe start collecting straws and get a nitrogen can to keep them in, or find someone nearby that will allow you to store straws in theirs... Could fix yourself up for years to come and eat or sell the bothersome little brute...


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> Maybe start collecting straws and get a nitrogen can to keep them in, or find someone nearby that will allow you to store straws in theirs... Could fix yourself up for years to come and eat or sell the bothersome little brute...



Huh?


----------



## NH homesteader

I think he is telling babs to eat her buck and invest in artificial insemination  equipment.


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## Goat Whisperer

He is talking about Artificial Insemination. 

I'm hoping to do AI in the next few years, but the thing is not all does are AI candidates. Success rates aren't as high as it is with cattle, so that is something to factor in too. Other does are just hard to settle with AI. You should always have a backup buck for live breeding.


----------



## Latestarter

Babs had mentioned before her thoughts of considering AI... Once she has the straws (collected, then frozen semen), she can try the AI route before eliminating the buck(s)... If it does work, she's all set... if it doesn't, she'll know which does it won't work with/on. Then she can determine if those does should/could be replaced with offspring of the does it does work on. 

Follow the lead of the cattle/pork industry... or at least some facets of it. AI also gives the ability to import and use straws from really elite bucks/breeding lines at a substantial cost savings over buying/raising and supporting/feeding a buck from those same lines.   Just a thought...


----------



## NH homesteader

I won't elaborate here but I don't agree that we should go the route of the Cattle industry and I have no interest in AI. But,  to each his/her own and it would eliminate the buck issue for sure!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

JenniferDuBay said:


> So how could you tell he would be a fence jumper? And what would you look for in a buck?



For the potential fence jumper- I could just tell by his movements, how he acted when scared, and how he acted when he saw the does. Hard to really explain, but I can "read" goats the same way you read dogs, horses etc. I could just tell, sorry not great at explaining it. It's hard to put into words. 

Oh boy… what I look for in a buck? This is going to be "short story version" because it would take hours to explain every detail. 
Because I'm breeding registered dairy/show goats I would need to be more picky than someone who is breeding pet grade goats. 

I look at the conformation, topline, legs, placement, width between legs/hocks, brisket, escutcheon, the list goes on. 

Before I even look at the goat I look at the pedigree. What lines does he have? What are the Linear Appraisal scored, Milk test info, stars, SG's, CH's, etc. etc. 
I look at the udders of all the does in the 5 generation pedigree (or all that I can find). I look at siblings and half siblings. 

Most anything I look at I am already familiar with the genetics. 

Is the herd tested for CAE, CL, & Johne's? 

I never look at coat colors or eye color, with the breed I have color doesn't matter. I'm not a huge fan of overly flashy/spotted goats because it takes away from a true dairy animal. 

I also look at temperament. All of my bucks (MANY) are all well mannered and respectful. Not one will paw, blubber, or mount. We had two young mini's that started blubbering at people when they were around 7 months. Got that taken care of right away and they don't try anything  

Even my bottle babies are respectful.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Latestarter said:


> Babs had mentioned before her thoughts of considering AI... Once she has the straws (collected, then frozen semen), she can try the AI route before eliminating the buck(s)... If it does work, she's all set... if it doesn't, she'll know which does it won't work with/on. Then she can determine if those does should/could be replaced with offspring of the does it does work on.
> 
> Follow the lead of the cattle/pork industry... or at least some facets of it. AI also gives the ability to import and use straws from really elite bucks/breeding lines at a substantial cost savings over buying/raising and supporting/feeding a buck from those same lines.   Just a thought...


I have no qualms with AI. 
A doe may settle with AI this year but not next year. 

I know the benefits of AI, I'm hoping on getting a tank in 2017 for that reason. AI still isn't as cheap as some think. 

With 40+ does to breed, I would think it would be difficult for Babs to AI each one. 
I have heard from fellow goat breeders that success rates are lower when you have to synchronize does to go into heat. 
The most common % I have heard for conception via AI is 60%. Those with smaller herds have said they are a little better. 

I can't imagine constantly checking a doe internally to get her at the right time- multiply that by 40 

I've bugged Babs about AI, I told her a long, long time ago that she should look into it. I just don't see it being possible with 40+ does a season (unless she had a professional do it). Especially when her goal is having a dairy- if she has 10 goats that end up kidding 2+ months later than needed it could really mess her up production/business wise.


----------



## Hens and Roos

Goat Whisperer said:


> For the potential fence jumper- I could just tell by his movements, how he acted when scared, and how he acted when he saw the does. Hard to really explain, but I can "read" goats the same way you read dogs, horses etc. I could just tell, sorry not great at explaining it. It's hard to put into words.
> 
> Oh boy… what I look for in a buck? This is going to be "short story version" because it would take hours to explain every detail.
> Because I'm breeding registered dairy/show goats I would need to be more picky than someone who is breeding pet grade goats.
> 
> I look at the conformation, topline, legs, placement, width between legs/hocks, brisket, escutcheon, the list goes on.
> 
> Before I even look at the goat I look at the pedigree. What lines does he have? What are the Linear Appraisal scored, Milk test info, stars, SG's, CH's, etc. etc.
> I look at the udders of all the does in the 5 generation pedigree (or all that I can find). I look at siblings and half siblings.
> 
> Most anything I look at I am already familiar with the genetics.
> 
> Is the herd tested for CAE, CL, & Johne's?
> 
> I never look at coat colors or eye color, with the breed I have color doesn't matter. I'm not a huge fan of overly flashy/spotted goats because it takes away from a true dairy animal.
> 
> I also look at temperament. All of my bucks (MANY) are all well mannered and respectful. Not one will paw, blubber, or mount. We had two young mini's that started blubbering at people when they were around 7 months. Got that taken care of right away and they don't try anything
> 
> Even my bottle babies are respectful.




So how do you work with the bucks to make sure they don't paw, blubber or mount people?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I treat them like a goat. Bucklings aren't allowed to head butt, jump, paw, or head rub from a very young age. I see so many people let the buck rub it's head all over them. They say it's "sweet" or "cute" but in reality they are marking you OR it leads to marking. If you ever watch a buck around a doe in heat he rubs his head all over her, I'm not a doe so no smelly head rubbing here  

I needed to work with our new lamancha buck with the because he wanted to rub his smelly head on my, and didn't like being told no. 

When I have bucks like this I show them I'm "boss buck". If you ever watch a field full of bucks you will probably notice there is on buck that all the other bucks (top buck) leave alone. It's because if they try anything the top buck will turn around and give him a good, hard, head butt as a reminder. 

Same thing when I'm with them, if I have the occasional young buck that forgets his manners he gets a good yelling and a slap on the rump if needed. *not enough to harm the buck*

During the first rut I'm a little harder on them. If I'm walking through, they need to move. If I'm going to grab them, I'm going to grab them. 

I'm very hard on the horned meat bucks during the first rut. They aren't going to crowd me when I feed them. When I pour the grain down, they need to back off I decide to take the grain. If they don't I case them off and do a small slap on the rump to prove my point if needed. 

When I say "slap on the rump" it is not hard. If you ever look at two bucks together you will see that hit each other much harder than a human would. My hand is flat and remains flat when it comes in contact with the goat. No damage is done- I don't abuse my goats


----------



## Hens and Roos

I have seen our older buck head butt the younger buck.  Go to know, especially with the younger buck(only 7 months old).  I will remind my kids to try a not hard slap on the rump.  We did teach the buck(got him at 2.5 years old) to respect our space when we enter his area.


----------



## babsbag

I was going to do AI, had the tank all lined up to buy and the lady changed her mind. I have a friend that is doing most of her does AI this year. She waits for them to come into heat and then does the deed the next day. She has had really good success doing them. She is not synchronizing them at all, just waiting for mother nature to do its thing. It really does help that she is good friends when one of the best goat AI people in the nation so she has had a good teacher. 

My problem with the bucks right now is basically that I have too many and only one pen. I won't need this many bucks after I decide if the minis are something I am keeping. Right now I have two mini Alpines, two nigis, one LM. and one Alpine...that is a few too many. Up until this year I always had my bucks separate during rut, I will do that again next year. 

I just bred a LM doe to a nigi....I am NOT keeping a mini mancha buck. NO NO NO!!!!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

babsbag said:


> I was going to do AI, had the tank all lined up to buy and the lady changed her mind. I have a friend that is doing most of her does AI this year. She waits for them to come into heat and then does the deed the next day. She has had really good success doing them. She is not synchronizing them at all, just waiting for mother nature to do its thing. It really does help that she is good friends when one of the best goat AI people in the nation so she has had a good teacher.
> 
> My problem with the bucks right now is basically that I have too many and only one pen. I won't need this many bucks after I decide if the minis are something I am keeping. Right now I have two mini Alpines, two nigis, one LM. and one Alpine...that is a few too many. Up until this year I always had my bucks separate during rut, I will do that again next year.
> 
> I just bred a LM doe to a nigi....I am NOT keeping a mini mancha buck. NO NO NO!!!!


But would you try and do ALL your does in one season?  
It seems that you already have a heck of a time figuring out who is in heat…


----------



## babsbag

I think this year has been tough because there are two bucks in  pens literally IN the doe pen. Usually the does will go out of the barn and stand at the buck pen but with all the rain they just stand, sleep, and eat near the 2 young bucks and they aren't very demonstrative and the young boys aren't even smelly...at least to me they aren't.

I don't think that it would be wise to never have a buck as a back up plan. I know my LM serviced two does last year for a friend when they wouldn't settle with AI. 

I just don't need all the different breeds, that is what is killing me.


----------



## NH homesteader

Which are you leaning towards going with,  if you downsize breed wise? Just curious...  I love my mini alpines.


----------



## Southern by choice

I can see AI-ing  to bring in some really great genetics that you might not be able to get otherwise especially when breeding for show and production animals. 
The cost for collection is rather expensive then the maintenance for the tank, use of hormones for the does (if not waiting for natural heat), and an average of 60% success rate is pricey. Some buck straws can be as much as $150 Straw. Yeah, I would want to make sure it took on the first try! LOL

On a select few does I can see this but on a whole herd it seems impractical. Cheaper to keep a buck.

@Goat Whisperer  is into this but not me, I like the good ole fashioned natures way. Not saying I would never AI a doe but  it sure isn't something I would do with an entire herd.


----------



## babsbag

NH homesteader said:


> Which are you leaning towards going with, if you downsize breed wise? Just curious... I love my mini alpines.



For the sake of the dairy and the quality of fluid milk probably LaManchas. Personally I like the Alpines but the LM have higher butter fat in the milk. I bought my first LMs strictly to add fat to the milk for the dairy. 

The verdict is still out on the minis, I haven't had any in milk as of yet. I like the personality and the size but the production is key for the dairy.

If I were to keep goats as weed eaters and for me to make cheese, etc. I would keep the Alpines. They are smart, inquisitive, hardy, and good producers. IMO the fact that the breed has a much deeper and broader genetic base is a huge plus; I think it makes for hardier goats.


----------



## babsbag

If I did AI I would not use hormones, your success rate is higher if you don't. If you buy a tank get a long term storage one and then it is only about 75.00 a year for service. If I could bring in AI every few years and get an entire crop of unrelated doelings it would save me from having to replace my buck every 2 years. I have 3 doelings this year that I kept. If I breed them back to their sire, which I will do, then I need a new buck for their offspring if I keep any. 2 of these does are polled, so if they have polled doeling I will keep them, but AI would allow me to breed those few doelings and not have to get a new buck.


----------



## Southern by choice

The few people I have talked with that have tanks say it is about $20 month to fill. That's $240 alone. Then if something goes wrong you have big $ in that tank. I don't know I'm not sold on it. LOL


----------



## babsbag

The one I was looking at was 140 days working time or 230 static storage time. No one I know is filling every month. I have so many friends with tanks that I could get space whenever I want, that won't be a problem, but it does require more planning. I would rather have it here.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> The one I was looking at was 140 days working time or 230 static storage time. No one I know is filling every month. I have so many friends with tanks that I could get space whenever I want, that won't be a problem, but it does require more planning. I would rather have it here.



And I bet you could make a pretty penny from the backyard goat keepers who don't have the space for a buck.


----------



## NH homesteader

That's probably true.  If you could do the AI for them anyway,  I don't think the average person (myself included)  could do it. I am really intrigued by Lamanchas...  They're next on my list!


----------



## Southern by choice

NH homesteader said:


> That's probably true.  If you could do the AI for them anyway,  I don't think the average person (myself included)  could do it. I am really intrigued by Lamanchas...  They're next on my list!


I adore my Lamanchas! I love how they wrap their neck around mine, always want their hugs and kisses. They are so much like dogs!


----------



## OneFineAcre

We have to add nitrogen to our tank every 4 months.  We usually do it sooner, we have a lot of money invested in the contents.

I don't think there would be much profit in providing AI service for the backyard herders, at least not enough for the effort.


----------



## babsbag

@OneFineAcre What does it cost to charge the tank? I am going by what my vet pays. 

This young lady I know is having blast with AI. She has bought some cheap straws just for fun and is looking at them to see if any of the sperm is alive and some of the straws don't even have any. She says to make sure that you buy from a reputable source. She is also practicing on thawing the sperm canister without power, just in case that ever happens; she knows how long she has to hold it under her arm.   She is getting very good. She had her own bucks collected and is using mostly those straws for this year, but her success rate is right around 90% if not higher.  She is willing to do mine if I want to go that route, and I think she has a tank for sell too. She would also be willing to teach me how to do it. I have a year to think about it...


----------



## Green Acres Farm

Goat Whisperer said:


> For the potential fence jumper- I could just tell by his movements, how he acted when scared, and how he acted when he saw the does. Hard to really explain, but I can "read" goats the same way you read dogs, horses etc. I could just tell, sorry not great at explaining it. It's hard to put into words.


Hence, "Goat Whisperer"


----------



## Green Acres Farm

Isn't shipping a really big AI cost? Do you have to ship your own tank?

And then the tank is very expensive. I wonder if one of the horse vets here has one to rent. 

I think I could get the liquid nitrogen for free if we ever did this in the future.


----------



## OneFineAcre

babsbag said:


> @OneFineAcre What does it cost to charge the tank? I am going by what my vet pays.
> 
> This young lady I know is having blast with AI. She has bought some cheap straws just for fun and is looking at them to see if any of the sperm is alive and some of the straws don't even have any. She says to make sure that you buy from a reputable source. She is also practicing on thawing the sperm canister without power, just in case that ever happens; she knows how long she has to hold it under her arm.   She is getting very good. She had her own bucks collected and is using mostly those straws for this year, but her success rate is right around 90% if not higher.  She is willing to do mine if I want to go that route, and I think she has a tank for sell too. She would also be willing to teach me how to do it. I have a year to think about it...



I think it is around $70
It's really the trip charge more than the cost of the nitrogen, so if you have one of the ones that lasts 6 months, it's better.
If you are so inclined to take it somewhere to be charged, you could do away with the trip charge and be cheaper.

I think ours is actually a 6 month tank, but like I said, we've got more money in the tank than it's worth to find out.

The ones that hold more nitrogen, hold fewer straws of semen.


----------



## OneFineAcre

Green Acres Farm said:


> Isn't shipping a really big AI cost? Do you have to ship your own tank?
> 
> And then the tank is very expensive. I wonder if one of the horse vets here has one to rent.
> 
> I think I could get the liquid nitrogen for free if we ever did this in the future.



Most people that sell the semen have a shipper tank.  It's a lot smaller.  I don't think that shipping is that big of a cost.

We have bought semen from 3 bucks.
The first 2 we bought from Biogen, the company that collected our bucks, so no shipping.  Just transfer from their tank to ours.

The other, we bought from a breeder who was at the state fair.  He brought it with him.

You can plan and not pay shipping.


----------



## babsbag

The tanks can be expensive but you can find used ones at a reasonable cost. For those people that want the "famous" genetics AI is the only way to go. I have a friend that is rebuilding her herd of LMs and using semen from goats she owned 20+ years ago; that is cool.  Her herd was famous in its day, one of the leaders in LMs so it is fun to watch her rebuild this. Her herd name is Coastside.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

@Goat Whisperer I have an odd request. If I went to see some bucklings, would you be willing to FaceTime with me to see if any were worth buying?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I'll send a PM when I have time


----------



## JenniferDuBay

So rural king is having a 20% off on fencing sale. I'm considering getting enough fence to completely redo my property and cross fence. What's the cheapest gap I could get away with? I'm comfortable with a 4' fence as none of my goats are jumpers... but they do lean on the fencing a lot. And are tposts or wood a better buy?  I accidentally got goats and now they're taking over my life


----------



## Southern by choice

JenniferDuBay said:


> I accidentally got goats and now they're taking over my life



*POST OF THE DAY! *


----------



## JenniferDuBay

I tried Myrtle's milk today, and it's pretty good! I think it tastes like 1% cows milk with a slight... something else.

I also finished the automagical milker, and she has stopped putting up a fuss over me milking her. Win/win. It is leaking air around the hoses, so it needs tweaking, but I'll get there. I also cross fenced the barn we have, and I'll put Myrtle in there. She can see the other goats, but I won't have to chase her havering all over hell and creation just to milk her.


----------



## TAH

that will also help with her getting friendlier.


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## babsbag

The ones I chased to milk are the ones that took a hike right off of my land; I'm too old.  Usually once they learn that milk=grain they are much more amiable about the whole thing.

As far as the fence, I wouldn't go with less than 4"x4" openings in the fence. 2x4 is better. T-post are fine for most places, but you probably want wood on the corners and at gate opening. The goats will lean on the fence, that is one reason I use a row of hot wire on the inside, keeps the fences in better shape.


----------



## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> The ones I chased to milk are the ones that took a hike right off of my land; I'm too old.  Usually once they learn that milk=grain they are much more amiable about the whole thing.
> 
> As far as the fence, I wouldn't go with less than 4"x4" openings in the fence. 2x4 is better. T-post are fine for most places, but you probably want wood on the corners and at gate opening. The goats will lean on the fence, that is one reason I use a row of hot wire on the inside, keeps the fences in better shape.



How expensive is the Hotwire systems?


----------



## Southern by choice

babsbag said:


> amiable


completely off subject - but I am so happy to see the usage of amiable!


----------



## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> completely off subject - but I am so happy to see the usage of amiable!



This is the most off topic thread, ever. Heck, I'm surprised this is still in the food section


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## luvmypets

JenniferDuBay said:


> This is the most off topic thread, ever. Heck, I'm surprised this is still in the food section


I kind of noticed that as I peek in occasionally lol!


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## babsbag

Southern by choice said:


> completely off subject - but I am so happy to see the usage of amiable!



Why? Are you just surprised that I used the word correctly? 

The energizer I bought for the hot wire is around 175.00. I used the polywire from TSC; maybe 30.00  a roll.  The insulators are the expensive part...about 7.00 for a bag of 25.


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Why? Are you just surprised that I used the word correctly?
> 
> The energizer I bought for the hot wire is around 175.00. I used the polywire from TSC; maybe 30.00  a roll.  The insulators are the expensive part...about 7.00 for a bag of 25.



Thanks!


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## JenniferDuBay

Welcome the two newest additions to our herd. (You guys warned me about this, and I didn't listen.) 

This is Hagred the punk rock goat







And this is clover.


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## NH homesteader

Ah I love the punk rock goat!


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## babsbag

Cute... Do we need to resurrect the goat addicts anonymous thread?


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## frustratedearthmother

Cuties!  Especially the punk rocker, lol!


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Cute... Do we need to resurrect the goat addicts anonymous thread?



<< I went to an auction and there were exposed nigis going for 25 dollars. I am lucky I didn't come home with more!


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## Hens and Roos

lol....welcome to goat math and potato chips


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## babsbag

$25...that is crazy. Exposed as in possibly bred?  Yes goat math at its finest.


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## NH homesteader

That is crazy! Just be careful at auctions... There's probably a reason they're that cheap.  There's a lot of untested goats at auctions.


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## frustratedearthmother

X2


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## babsbag

Quarantine them and test...


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## JenniferDuBay

babsbag said:


> Quarantine them and test...



Yessum. She is in quarantine right now. @Goat Whisperer warned me about auctions, but at those prices, I couldn't let it go. If she dies or had to be put down, it was only 25.



NH homesteader said:


> That is crazy! Just be careful at auctions... There's probably a reason they're that cheap.  There's a lot of untested goats at auctions.



Goats never go for that cheap at this auction, and everything there was ridiculously priced. I bought a table saw for 3 dollars. 30 flowering plants for 10 bucks. I think it was because of Christmas coming up. It was insane. We usually just go to this thing because the people who run it are hilarious. At most we get a plant to two. We did get a pet bunny once... but yeah. I went home with a van full of stuff- and a goat in a Rubbermaid tote. Then we almost hit a deer, and poor clover and I caught air in the trunk.


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## norseofcourse

babsbag said:


> $25...that is crazy. Exposed as in possibly bred?  Yes goat math at its finest.


Yep, that's crazy... and sad...


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## TAH

A farm down in oregon brought a boer for 15 bucks .


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## Latestarter

What were you doing in the trunk with Clover?


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## NH homesteader

I think she meant the way back of the van...  I wondered the same thing until I read it  over


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## JenniferDuBay

Latestarter said:


> What were you doing in the trunk with Clover?


The very back of the van. No seats. The rest of the van was filled with our loot and I wanted to make sure clover stayed in the tote (and peed and pooped there.)

Anyway, that's how she got her name. Bambi (the deer) -> "but it has to be a flower name..." wasn't the skunk clover?


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## frustratedearthmother

The skunk was "Flower"... I love me some Bambi, lol!


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## JenniferDuBay

frustratedearthmother said:


> The skunk was "Flower"... I love me some Bambi, lol!



Well... woops. The name stays, though.


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## JenniferDuBay

So apparently Lily has gone into heat, and punk rock goat Hagred is a ladies man, for sure. I am losing it watching these two romance. My neighbors started playing Barry Mannelow for them this morning. I was crying laughing so hard, but sure enough they finally Did The Do. Mayhaps there will be wee Stompy Boots in the spring.


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## NH homesteader

Love it


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## Latestarter

Mark the calendar. 145-150 days. Check in 21-28 days to make sure she doesn't come back into heat again. If she does, re-set the calendar. Congrats!


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## TAH

And so the wait begin's . What were they bred to?


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## JenniferDuBay

TAH said:


> And so the wait begin's . What were they bred to?



They said he's pure nigi, but clearly doesn't meet height standards for the breed. But he had all his testing done and at an unbeatable price for such a nice goat. 

And I'm about to head off that auction I got clover from... wish me luck with not coming home with more goats


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## Southern by choice

What auction?
You should never get goats from auctions. 
Generally auctions are where sick, diseased goats are brought in to be sold.


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## JenniferDuBay

Southern by choice said:


> What auction?
> You should never get goats from auctions.
> Generally auctions are where sick, diseased goats are brought in to be sold.



It was 25 last week for a bred female. I did buy one, she is in quarantine until testing is done.

Today, however, goat prices were more reasonable


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## Green Acres Farm

Some common diseases like CL and Johnes are zootonic and pretty much stay in your soil forever.


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## Southern by choice

What testing are you having done?


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## Green Acres Farm

If someone is selling a goat that cheap, they must be pretty desperate to _something _out.


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## TAH

There are good and bad goats at actions. I have been to many actions and seen goats that I would not touch and goats that seem fine, If you are testing for Johns, CAE, and CL there should be no issue. Just make sure you run fecal and deworm properly. Our friends bought many many goats from the action (Mostly meat breeds). They would get goats for $15-25 bucks a piece, He tested and quarantined for 30 days and had hardly any issues. It also tepands on the action.


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## Southern by choice

TAH said:


> There are good and bad goats at actions. I have been to many actions and seen goats that I would not touch and goats that seem fine, If you are testing for Johns, CAE, and CL there should be no issue. Just make sure you run fecal and deworm properly. Our friends bought many many goats from the action (Mostly meat breeds). They would get goats for $15-25 bucks a piece, He tested and quarantined for 30 days and had hardly any issues. It also tepands on the action.



There are far MORE many issues and diseases than just CAE,CL, and Johnes.

Buying from a sale auction is a bad idea all the way around.


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## Green Acres Farm

Look, say the goat you got happened to come from a clean herd...

However, there is a 0% chance there aren't diseases that they will be exposed to and possibly contract.

And what's worse is...

Say they tested clean.

A few years later you find out that all your work/money was a waste because your goat comes up with Johnes or something else. Also, because of what you brought in, kids or other goats you have sold from your farm carry this disease(s) and someomne else's herd is ruined. That would be awful.

CAE would be the least of my worries. At least you can't get it and it won't stay on your land forever.


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## frustratedearthmother

And, even if they went to the auction clean - just think of all the other critters who went through there that  weren't!  They could contract something while in a holding pen...


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## Goat Whisperer

Yep. 
So many more diseases they can carry. CL, CAE, & Johnes is a very small portion of what goats can have. 

The biggest concern I would have is drinking the milk. Many zoonotic issues can be passed through milk. Scary really. 

But is does seem that a Jennifer has had good success and I'm hoping for no issues!
Awaiting those kids too!


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## Southern by choice

me too


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