# Why feed grain/ Why NOT???



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 25, 2012)

Here is opening up a can of worms.  A  place for us to discuss, argue a little, and share why we feed grain and why we don't.  NO one is right or wrong in this discussion.  Feel free to voice your personal opinions about grains/pelleted feeds, ect....  the differences between grains and pelleted feeds.  Why you really like corn for example, or you really don't want you goats to eat any grains, only grass and leaves, or why you are feeding a pelleted feed.  Ect.... Ect....    




My major rule is just like on BYH,  DO NOT Make it political, there is another section for that.   
Ofcourse, during a discussion, what one person says may bring up a discussion and remind us of our opinion and it may be very different than someone elses. This thread is for *NOT being Offended* if someone immediately posts the opposite opinion. 



So let's hear your alls opinions.  Feel free to copy and past something that you recently posted on another thread. I know there was already a similar discussion getting started, I woudl like to move it here.


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## pdpo222 (Sep 25, 2012)

My goats will eat either pellets or grain.  I feed grain or pellets for that extra boost when getting ready for breeding, when the does are pregnant or making milk for kids.  In the winter they get grain because of the cold.  I like locking them up with with grain and hay to hold them over night.  In the summer I never gave my horse corn.  An old timer once told me corn produces heat and horses don't need heat in the summer so don't feed it.  lol  That has stuck with me for all these years.  I did feed grains when showing horses or going on all day rides.  In the summer the buck does nothing.  He gets hay and pasture and of course water.  I don't feel he needs that extra boost.  If he was breeding year round then yes, but I don't have enough goats to keep him that busy.  I think if I grained him year round he would just put on weight he didn't need.  Not like he runs around in the pasture using up calories.  lol   Same with the does.  Once they kids are weaned and there is no need for milk production I see no reason to grain them.  Just how I do it and it works for me.


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## elevan (Sep 25, 2012)

From my goat feeding discussion :


> Winter - Spring:
> Hay (clover / orchard grass / alfalfa) - available free choice to all
> Alfalfa pellets - free choice to dams in the kidding pens and goats in breeding pens.  A handful a day to all others.
> Sweetlix 16:8 Minerals - Available free choice to all
> ...


Economics is the primary reason that I feed the way that I do.  I find it to be the most economical to give my goats "free" food as long as possible and when there is no browse for them then I supplement them with hay and alfalfa pellets which are both much cheaper in my area than pelleted feeds or whole grains.  I also don't believe that goats "need" the pelleted feeds or whole grains to be healthy.

I use alfalfa pellets because they up the calcium intake of the goat and helps to prevent UC in bucks / wethers and assist with milk production in breeding / mothering / milking does.

Minerals are available free choice because I know that our pasture is deficient as are most and correct health is the most important step towards resistance of diseases and parasites.

Fresh water is available always.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 25, 2012)

I feed grain (meaning any concentrated feed, like whole grains OR textured bagged feed) whenever they need it, like during lactation especially.  I'll feed it to young kids, and usually during the last month of gestation.  I don't feed anyone who isn't bred or milking, or kids once they get older.  I feel that it's easiest and most cost effective for me to use grain, especially because I have limited space and although I wish I had enough pasture to solely graze, I just don't.  I also use good quality hay year round (unless it's spring and there's plenty of grass).  

And there's a misconception that feeding pelleted feed is different than feeding whole grains (like whole or cracked corn, whole oats, etc). There isn't.  Pelleted feed is just grain blended and mixed with vitamins and minerals so it comes out to with a very reliable nutrient analysis.  There are differences of course, like, minerals and other ingredients added, but they're all a nutrition source and they all have their dangers like bloat and acidosis.  The same with textured feeds (which have some whole grains mixed with other extruded pellets and vitamins/minerals).


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 25, 2012)

When we ordered our pelleted feed, we could have just as easily ordered it not Pelleted, it would be whole grains with vitaimines and minerals added. We have chosen to pellet our feed, because goats love to pick through the ration and I don't want them choosing just to eat the corn out of it and not ending up with the balanced ration that I have worked so hard to design. 

I look at grains as being a part of a pelleted ration, I personally think of grains as "whole grains" and a pelleted ration as a mix of grains, vitamines, minerals ect..... designed to be fed as the only feed source if you wish to do so. For example, I would never feed grain(whole corn, oats, whole barley) as the only feed source. but I have more than one time fed a 16% pelleted goat feed as the only feed source with no pasture/browse/hay for an extended period of time.   

We don't look at grains as being evil, but we have carefully read feed bag lables and  by doing so have realized that there are some things in a pelleted feed ration that we really don't want to be feeding our goats and other things that we would like to have in our feed that not all feed brands use. A feed bag can have the exact same label and technically not have the same ingredients. Feed companies are allowed to group grains and products into categories, such as "grain by-products" or roughage products, grain products, ect... with in these categories there is a big range of grains and products that range in price, nutritional value and quality. 

For example: A roughage product can mean soybean hulls, or it can also mean alalfa hay ground up.  Personally, I would choose the alfalfa hay ground into my pellet.  Of course alfalfa hay, would be pricier than a product such as soybean hulls, but may offer almost the exact same label on the feed bag.  


We only feed a pelleted feed ration, and we feed grain to:
 all growing animals up to the age of 2 years of age, 
and then for a month around breeding season(called flushing) to the adults
 and again 30 days before the adult does are due to have their kids and throughout nursing their kids(about 10 weeks of nursing). 

Kids are on full feed in a creep feed are until they are weaned, they normally start showing interest at around 3 weeks of age. AFter they are weaned they normally get 2 feedings a day totalling around 3 % of their body wieght in grain a day. 
A 50lb kid would be getting around 1 1/2 lbs of pelleted grain a day. 

They would also be on hay or pasture, depending on the time of year. 

Our show wethers that are being fed out for the fair, would be the only onse getting an all pelleted ration and very little hay, no pasture.

EDited to add:  I have Boer goats.


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## chubbydog811 (Sep 25, 2012)

A good thing to add as well would be breed of goat you are feeding - just a thought  

I'm running a herd of Saanens. 
I feed grain because they are such hard keepers. 

Sunshine plus pellets to get some extras into them (vitamins, minerals, calcium, protein). Alfalfa pellets for added calcium. Sweet goat (textured grain) for the calories. I refuse to feed straight corn. I see it as a filler, not something that is useful to their health. Early in lactation I will also feed a dairy goat pellet.
They also get free choice hay/pasture depending on the time of year. Free choice loose minerals all the time.

Grain consumption depends on the animals - kids get grain free choice, then 2ce a day once they figure it out. Lactating does get grained 2ce a day, dry does get grained once or twice depending on their condition. Bucks only get grain in the breeding season. If I have an easy keeper, I wont grain at all. 
Amount of grain depends on the time of year and if they are on pasture or not. 

Like 20kidsonhill, I read the bag tags closely, and also discuss with the feed store person why/why not I want to feed something.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 25, 2012)

I have 3 dairy goats. One is an Alpine/Nubian mix and the other 2 are Nigerian.

I feed a bagged feed along with sprouted oats. I mix half and half. I do feed grain/feed once a day for all and twice a day for milkers. The amount depends on what is going on with the goat at the time. I separate goats so they are fed individually so that I can see how much they are eating and also so that everyone gets their proper share.


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## Roll farms (Sep 25, 2012)

> I also don't believe that goats "need" the pelleted feeds or whole grains to be healthy.


Don't take this the wrong way, Elevan, but you don't have 'real' dairy goats.  If you're satisfied w/ what you get from yours, wonderful....but I want mine to milk to full potential.  To do that, they do "need" feed to keep from looking like walking skeletons.  Pygmies tend to be on the chunky side anyway....as do some Nigerians.

Believe me, if I didn't have to (and I don't think any of us is independantly wealthy....?) I wouldn't spend the money on feed.

I just don't want someone new to dairy goats to see that and ASSume they can get by on hay alone and then be disappointed w/ the amount of milk they get OR the goat lose condition.

I agree that listing the breed would help avoid confusion.

Our boers really don't need much grain unless in milk *if* they're getting good hay.  Mine are all fat b/c they get the same ration as the dairy goats...and def. don't need it.  But even w/ good alfalfa hay, mine produce better w/ grain AND good alfalfa hay during lactation.  I've tried alf. hay alone...and production drops.

Since I hopped in on the thread I'll say what we feed....

50-70% Purina sweet feed (for goats), 20-40% whole corn (40% in winter, 20% in summer), and 10% BOSS. 
ADM Goat Power mineral mixed w/ Manna Pro Mineral and Manna Pro brand probiotics and in fall / winter I add kelp meal to their mineral as well for added iodine.
Kids get Purina Noble goat medicated only until 6-9 mos. of age, when I gradually start mixing in the 'adult' ration to switch them over.
Bucks get PNG year round (unless they're in w/ the does and sneak their grain, and I give them AC drenches 1-2 x a month then to help prevent UC).

Dry / pregnant does (around 20) share 2-1/2 gallon scoops of the above mix plus hay 2x a day.  
Milkers get their share of that *plus* whatever they can scarf down on the stand.  If I feel they need extra I let them stay on the stand a bit longer and finish...if they're fat, I milk REALLY fast and get them off the stand ASAP.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 25, 2012)

we have tried switching from grass hay to more alfalfa hay while our boer does are nursing their kids, and so far the best daily gains we have had on our kids that are nursing have been when we give the mom's more pelleted feed/grain/corn with higher energy levels in it or simply put more calories. Another words, more grain, more calories, more milk, faster growing kids. 

Also feeding them grain twice a day, instead of just one time seemed to make a big difference. 

Yes, you can raise boer goats on way less grain, but you will see slower growth rates. I am guessing for the most part you will see slower growth rates on just about any of the breeds if pastured only or hay only, even if feeding alfalfa.  For us, we need to get the kids ready to sell by 10 to 12 weeks of age, we need our wethers to be growing as well as possible for kids for the shows, we need our replacement does that we choose to keep to be 100lbs by 9 months of age so we can breed them as yearlings.  For us that means grain along with pasture in the summer or hay in the winter.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 25, 2012)

pdpo222 said:
			
		

> My goats will eat either pellets or grain.  I feed grain or pellets for that extra boost when getting ready for breeding, when the does are pregnant or making milk for kids.  In the winter they get grain because of the cold.  I like locking them up with with grain and hay to hold them over night.  In the summer I never gave my horse corn.  An old timer once told me corn produces heat and horses don't need heat in the summer so don't feed it.  lol  That has stuck with me for all these years.  I did feed grains when showing horses or going on all day rides.  In the summer the buck does nothing.  He gets hay and pasture and of course water.  I don't feel he needs that extra boost.  If he was breeding year round then yes, but I don't have enough goats to keep him that busy.  I think if I grained him year round he would just put on weight he didn't need.  Not like he runs around in the pasture using up calories.  lol   Same with the does.  Once they kids are weaned and there is no need for milk production I see no reason to grain them.  Just how I do it and it works for me.


Wanted to comment on something you said that cuaght my attention.  Noticed you said that you give them their grain at night when you lock them up for the evening. I get what you arey saying, corn produced heat, so for a cold night you give them grain to help their systems stay warmer. I don't know if it really works that way.  Maybe it doesn, But I always thought it was the fiber or roughage that helps to keep them warm. As their rumen digest the roughage/fiber it warms them.  Infact, I have heard that you shouldn't give them grain right before bed time, because if they lay down for a long time on a full stomach of grain it increases the likely hood of acidosis and bloat. I give ours their grain in the morning and around 5 or 6 pm, so they have a few hours of grazing before they lay down at night, 

I really don't know the answer to this, just comparing what your thinking is to what our thinking is.  Honestly, I do have a shyer doe that needs to be penned at night so she has her own hay to eat and I often give her an extra pound of grain at this time, because she doesn't get to the feeders very well. So she is eating a little later in the evening. She is normally, quite hungry by this time and eats her pound of grain and munches hay for a while before laying down, She is very timid and just wont make any attempt to get to the hay feeders during the day.


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## pdpo222 (Sep 25, 2012)

Well my last feeding in the winter time is around 4 or 5 oclock in Ohio.  And like I said...it works for me.  I don't give a lot of grain unless I see a reason for it.  I give a cup in the morning and a cup at night to each one.  Like I said none of mine are bred now so it works out great for now.  Things will change when they are bred but for now two cups a day won't kill them.  Then they eat 2nd cutting hay all night if they want.  So grain right now doesn't play a big part in my schedule.  More like a treat for them.


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## Catahoula (Sep 25, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> pdpo222 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read somewhere recently also about don't give them grains at night but hay. The fiber or roughage will help general lots of heat for them. I have two 7month old Boer wethers and I do feed them about 3/4 cup of grains each in the morning and at night. I have just cut them back on the grains (used to be 1.5 cups each meal per goat) because the vet said they are a bit thick... I only plan to feed them grains till the grains are gone and then it will just be alfalfa hay and alfalfa pellets with little BOSS (instead of grains). They get to browse in the pasture all day also. I am getting two more kids soon, an Alpine wether and his sister. They are 5+ months old now. I don't plan to bred the doe so she'll be treated the same as the wethers. I will feed them the same as the Boers. When the 170lbs of grains are gone...everyone gets alfalfa hay/pellets with BOSS and browse on the pasture. Unless for some reasons, they are not doing well, I don't plan to buy anymore grain feeds. As I understood, their basic needs are quality hay, water and minerals. I would like to keep it as simple as possible for myself or whoever might take care of them when I can't.  ****Also, mine are just pets. They are not producing milk, nursing kids, pregnant, breeding bucks or working goats. I am feeding them grains now because they are growing kids. Someday, if I take them packing or work them as harnessing goats, I may use grains again.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 25, 2012)

> Producers sometimes talk about "hot" feeds and "cool" feeds. We must discern whether the discussion is about energy content or actual heat production. Corn and other concentrates are sometimes called "hot" feeds. This is in reference to their higher energy content compared to hay or straw (cool feeds). However, corn and other concentrates contribute less to the heat of fermentation or digestion than hay. Therefore cattle actually produce less actual heat when consuming corn than when consuming hay. Further increasing the concentrate portion of a feedlot finishing diet may lead to acidosis problems. One option is to feed more frequently so as to keep the feed fresher (especially silage) and to feed a greater part the diet in the evening rather than in the morning. Similarly high quality forage produces less heat of fermentation than low quality forage. This might be another argument for moving cattle to higher quality pasture or moving more frequently through paddocks.


Source


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## ksalvagno (Sep 25, 2012)

pdpo222 said:
			
		

> Well my last feeding in the winter time is around 4 or 5 oclock in Ohio.  And like I said...it works for me.  I don't give a lot of grain unless I see a reason for it.  I give a cup in the morning and a cup at night to each one.  Like I said none of mine are bred now so it works out great for now.  Things will change when they are bred but for now two cups a day won't kill them.  Then they eat 2nd cutting hay all night if they want.  So grain right now doesn't play a big part in my schedule.  More like a treat for them.


I don't think a cup (I'm assuming a measuring cup) of grain in the evening is going to hurt anything. Ultimately every farm has to do what works for them. If your goats are healthy and doing well, then whatever you are doing is working for you. 

Remember, there are farms that milk twice a day and those dairy does may be getting a big pan of feed late. I milk between 8pm and 9pm myself.

I'm not saying to feed your goats a big pan of corn at night but there are reasons to give some feed at night.


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## Catahoula (Sep 25, 2012)

I also want to add that I am also a newbie to goat ownership. I read many post and asked a lot of questions here. I took in many advice and information and basically decided on what works for me and for my kids. I am amazed on how many different ways to feed your goats and obviously, they all work or we wouldn't be hearing about them.


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## Chris (Sep 26, 2012)

I have no problem feeding _"grains"_ and most of my feed mix is whole grains. 
I never really liked the textured or pelleted feed mainly because the goat never did well on it and it took a lot of feed just to keep weight on and milk well.

I have my own feed mixed at the local mill and as you can see it is mainly whole grains.
Up until this week this is what I was feeding, _(the new "winter" mix is a little different and has more roughage)_ 

150 Whole Roasted Soybean
135 Whole Corn
100 Whole Oats
50 Beet Pulp (with out Molasses)
50 Molasses
8 Dicalcium Phosphate 
5 Trace Mineral Salt (with Selenium)
1 Magnesium Oxide
1 A D E Vitamin Mix  

Chris


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 26, 2012)

Chris said:
			
		

> I have no problem feeding _"grains"_ and most of my feed mix is whole grains.
> I never really liked the textured or pelleted feed mainly because the goat never did well on it and it took a lot of feed just to keep weight on and milk well.
> 
> I have my own feed mixed at the local mill and as you can see it is mainly whole grains.
> ...


I am assuming when you are referring to a pelleted feed, you are referring to a store brand of pelleted feed and not your own mix that has been pelleted, because pelleting your mix shouldn't  change the nutritional value of the feed mix. Or do you feel grinding and pelleting it does change it? I like your mix.  Do you have problems with the minerals separating out of it? Is it 50 of dry molasses or wet molasses?


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## Chris (Sep 26, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I am assuming when you are referring to a pelleted feed, you are referring to a store brand of pelleted feed and not your own mix that has been pelleted, because pelleting your mix shouldn't  change the nutritional value of the feed mix. Or do you feel grinding and pelleting it does change it? I like your mix.  Do you have problems with the minerals separating out of it? Is it 50 of dry molasses or wet molasses?


The Pelleted Feed was store bought and the textured was a mix of mine using a 38% protein pellet, corn and oats.



> Or do you feel grinding and pelleting it does change it?


I fell when you grind feeds you will loose some of the needed nutrition yes but I also believe that when referring to goats that it may be harder for them to get the nutrition from a ground feed than a whole or rolled. 



> Do you have problems with the minerals separating out of it? Is it 50 of dry molasses or wet molasses?


The Molasses that I use is in the Wet/Liquid form, when in the Wet/Liquid form it helps bind the minerals to the grain and also help keeps the goats from picking and choosing what grains they want to eat. 

I like the mix a lot and have had some real good results using it but I can not take all the credit because it's a "modified" version of the University of Missouri goat feed mix.

Chris


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## Chris (Sep 26, 2012)

20kids,

I should add that the mix above is,

Percent TDN	71.8%
Percent CP	16.8%
Percent Ca	0.752%
Percent P	0.694%
Ca ratio	1.084

Chris


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## elevan (Sep 26, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> > I also don't believe that goats "need" the pelleted feeds or whole grains to be healthy.
> 
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, Elevan, but you don't have 'real' dairy goats.  If you're satisfied w/ what you get from yours, wonderful....but I want mine to milk to full potential.  To do that, they do "need" feed to keep from looking like walking skeletons.  Pygmies tend to be on the chunky side anyway....as do some Nigerians.
> ...


No offense taken.  And yes, I do have pygmies and pygmy / ND crosses.  I am satisfied with what my goats produce, so at this point I wouldn't change anything.


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