# Who influences singles, twins, trips.....buck, doe, feeding/flushing?



## freemotion (May 11, 2011)

I am wondering, with so little experience, if this is a pattern or just one of those coincidences....

Two years ago I bought a nice La Mancha buckling from show lines (good udders) and bred two does and got two singles...both doelings, which I kept.

This past year I bought an Alpine buckling from unknown lines, just to get the gals bred and in milk.  I bred the above two does and their doelings.

So far, triplets, twins, and triplets.  One more doeling is due in mid-June.

Looks to me like it is the buck.  

Everyone was flushed with pumpkins for a month or more before breeding and a month or so after, and I had some great third cut hay at that time.

I was going to sell the buck as he gets bigger, as I worry about housing him and controlling him.  He's feisty!  But if this is his doing, I'll tolerate him!  He is a nice boy, just getting big and mature and here I am in the suburbs.

What is the consensus on who/what gets credit for this run of multiples?  If you've read my recent kidding thread, you know that the most recent set of triplets was from a first freshener!


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm (May 11, 2011)

It's basically a hereditary thing, so if the sire and dam have multiples in their background and were in a multiple birth themselves they're more likely to have multiples.

The buck is way more important in your herd than a lot of people think too... He IS your herd some would say. Without a quality buck, you're going to be perpetuating the traits of your does, whether for good or bad.

So... I'd say it's a combination of the two.


----------



## helmstead (May 11, 2011)

Unless the buck has fertility issues, the NUMBER of kids has absolutely NOTHING to do with him.

Sex, of course, is determined by the buck.

The doe is completely responsible for the number of eggs that erupt during ovulation.  There are MANY factors that effect that.


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm (May 11, 2011)

I'm talking genetically. 

You breed a buck with only singles in his entire line to even a high producing doe the kids will either exhibit traits from the buck or the doe... So I'm assuming they would have either lots of kids, or only a few.

Now if you were talking immediate results and not just in generations down the line (the entire basis of your operation), yeah, it's the doe that controls it.

I was saying that the buck is important if you want to *keep* high numbers of kids being born. He adds to the female, through their offspring.


----------



## helmstead (May 11, 2011)

Honestly I don't believe there is ANY correlation.  I have several does who genetically should produce multiples, and throw a single every time regardless of what I do.  Then I have does from singleton producers who throw multiples.  I don't believe producing multiples has much of anything to do with genetics, but that's just me.  I don't shop goats for how many babies they make, anyway, or how many were in their litter.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (May 11, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Unless the buck has fertility issues, the NUMBER of kids has absolutely NOTHING to do with him.
> 
> Sex, of course, is determined by the buck.
> 
> The doe is completely responsible for the number of eggs that erupt during ovulation.  There are MANY factors that effect that.


x2


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (May 11, 2011)

Were the two does first fresheners when they had singletons?  I agree, your buck won't have any more trouble fertilizing 2 or 3 eggs than he will fertilizing 1.



			
				RabbleRoost Farm said:
			
		

> I'm talking genetically.
> 
> You breed a buck with only singles in his entire line to even a high producing doe the kids will either exhibit traits from the buck or the doe... So I'm assuming they would have either lots of kids, or only a few.
> 
> ...





			
				helmstead said:
			
		

> Honestly I don't believe there is ANY correlation.  I have several does who genetically should produce multiples, and throw a single every time regardless of what I do.  Then I have does from singleton producers who throw multiples.  I don't believe producing multiples has much of anything to do with genetics, but that's just me.  I don't shop goats for how many babies they make, anyway, or how many were in their litter.


Free, didn't you say that your two singletons have now produced multiples?  If your does weren't ff's last time perhaps it was nutritional?


----------



## lilhill (May 11, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Were the two does first fresheners when they had singletons?  I agree, your buck won't have any more trouble fertilizing 2 or 3 eggs than he will fertilizing 1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to agree with Kate.


----------



## currycomb (May 11, 2011)

flushing the does prior to breeding increases the chances of multiple births. you are upping the nutrition of the does, their body says yah, we have good food available, lets have lots of babies. when the nutrition isn't so good, only one will be produced, or maybe none.


----------



## KellyHM (May 11, 2011)

I've heard that earlier in the breeding season they're less likely to conceive multiples, but don't know if this is true or not.  

My first 2 Nubian gals were bred in September their first go round and both had twins, then last year they were bred in July and each had a single.  However, the other Nubian doe I had that was bred in July had twins, so who knows.


----------



## freemotion (May 11, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Were the two does first fresheners when they had singletons?  I agree, your buck won't have any more trouble fertilizing 2 or 3 eggs than he will fertilizing 1.
> 
> 
> Free, didn't you say that your two singletons have now produced multiples?  If your does weren't ff's last time perhaps it was nutritional?


Well, that is all clear as mud!!!

One was an older doe of undetermined age who had a single two years in a row and twins this year.  The other was a ff who was a single herself, had a single her first time, and had triplets this year.  The third was the second doe's singleton and she had triplets the first time.  Following all that? 

Here, maybe this will work:

Last time:

Mya x LM = single doeling, Plum
Ginger x LM = single doeling, Peach

This time:

Mya x Dorian = twins
Ginger x Dorian = triplets
Peach x Dorian = triplets
Plum x Dorian = 

I fed them the same way the year before, flushing with pumpkins and squash in the fall and early winter, when those veggies are available free from the farm next door.  The only feed variable that I can think of is the hay, which never comes from the same place twice, as it is hard to get second cut here if you don't buy it when it is cut and store enough for the entire year.   I don't have the room.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (May 11, 2011)

Yes, that's how I understood it.  If the sire was in question, the fact that his singleton offspring have now produced multiples themselves should clear that up.


----------



## freemotion (May 11, 2011)

Just thought of a major difference....with the La Mancha buck, I walked the doe into his pen 2-3 times during her heat and let him breed her.  With Dorian, well, I left Ginger in with him for a couple of days, then the following month he escaped into the does' pasture to breed Mya and I just left him in there, moving the two does that I didn't want bred into his pen after reinforcing the fence.  So he bred and bred and bred each doe as she came into heat.

Does this make a difference?


----------



## 20kidsonhill (May 12, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Just thought of a major difference....with the La Mancha buck, I walked the doe into his pen 2-3 times during her heat and let him breed her.  With Dorian, well, I left Ginger in with him for a couple of days, then the following month he escaped into the does' pasture to breed Mya and I just left him in there, moving the two does that I didn't want bred into his pen after reinforcing the fence.  So he bred and bred and bred each doe as she came into heat.
> 
> Does this make a difference?


Hmmm. interesting.  We always just leave our bucks with our does, never have low numbers. but I would think if she was ovulating the number of eggs would already be there.  We feed corn for 2 weeks before breeding for flushing. Along with a bo-se shot.  I always assumed flushing was giving us consistant numbers.  And age of doe does matter. a younger doe is more likely to have less kids that an older doe. ATleast the first couple of years.  AT age 3  I am seeing this level off.


----------

