# What to use for possible pneumonia?



## jojobean (Jul 25, 2013)

I posted in general emergencies when my week old Holstein was literally down with bloat.  We got through that, we are slooowly getting through scours.  He has a temp between 103.5-104.7 (this evening was on the higher side), snotty nose,  flaring nostrils when breathing.  

Our reg vet is out of town until Monday.  I did find another vet way up north, so I can call up there for meds if need be.  I have him on Sulmet right now, should I get something different or will this work?  I put one T in his milk twice a day (thankfully he is drinking by himself now)

Also, this may be a weird question, but I really don't know the answer.  When he urinates, it comes out suuuper slow.  In a tiny little stream.  Is this normal or possible infection in that area?


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## jhm47 (Jul 25, 2013)

It does sound much like pneumonia.  If he were mine, I'd treat him with Draxxin.  Your vet should have an open bottle and should be willing to sell you a smaller amount.  As to the urination---bulls/steers don't have a really large stream, so I'd suspect he's normal.  Good luck!


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## jojobean (Jul 25, 2013)

thank you. my vet is closed until Monday barnie)  but I found a vet up north who will do a one time 1 1/2 mls of excede, without requiring to be established.  Hope this will do something!


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## jhm47 (Jul 25, 2013)

Better not wait too long on this.  Pneumonia can kill them pretty quickly if not treated timely.


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## jojobean (Jul 25, 2013)

ran up there as soon as I got the ok, administered it and 1000ml LR.  He is down again though...not looking good.  It has been like this for the I guess it is two weeks now, he has been alive.  Up one minute, down the next, scours, bloat.  He was up this morning at his feeder and even let out a little moo.  

Now that he is down, but has had meds, and LR...should I just push something, like milk or just leave him be?  I am also worried he has something going on with his abomasum.  Sigh.  This poor baby.


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## jojobean (Jul 25, 2013)

update:  He was down, and seemed really hot (even in the covered part of the pen) so hubs and I dragged him out into the cool shaded forest area and wet him down.  He did respond by lifting his head and folding his knees underneath him instead of remaining side-lying with his neck stretched out.  So now we wait and do what we have been doing I guess and hope the medicine works.  Should I continue the Sulmet or discontinue since he had the Excede?


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## jhm47 (Jul 25, 2013)

I guess I'd quit with the sulmet, since it didn't seem to be doing much for the pneumonia.  Excede is also a good drug for pneumonia, but I prefer Draxxin, although it's quite a bit more expensive.  It also lasts longer in their system.  

I don't wish to be negative, but I would not expect a good outcome from the symptoms you have described.  Just be prepared for the worst.  Hope I'm wrong!


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## jojobean (Jul 25, 2013)

I appreciate the honesty...it takes some pressure and stress off to be honest.  I am now prepared for him to not make it...although I get so giddy when he shows any sign of promise, like just now he stood up by himself and walked back to his now cool bed area.  I guess I will know the outcome here soon enough.  Thank you for your help jhm47.


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## Cricket (Jul 25, 2013)

You could also try putting a hay bale behind his back to keep him from laying flat out.


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## jojobean (Jul 26, 2013)

Will do that tomorrow.  I read something earlier and it makes a lot of sense.  When their lungs are damaged from pneumonia they can't hardly breathe in hot weather.  He goes down down (side lying, almost shock looking or very near death) during the hot part of the day and then "perks" up again in the evening.  We kept a part of his pen shaded but I think it still gets too hot because when we moved him to the forest he was a bit better.  I realize I may be reaching for anything right about now.  BUT, if he makes it through the night I will get him to the cool foresty area right after his breakfast.  

He stood with some help for his dinner bottle.  He showed interest, and sucked it all down. But that took all the energy he had right out of him and he very weakly walked back to his bed to lay down.  

OH, what is the anti-inflammatory drug..Banamine?  Is there something that is sold at the farm stores that I can give him in case the vet says no more scripts?


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## jhm47 (Jul 26, 2013)

If there's any hope at all for him, the Excede should do the trick.  I wouldn't be adding more drugs to the mix without the blessing of the vet.  Many of the drugs are antagonistic to each other, and will negate any benefits to each other.  

Hopefully, his lungs haven't been permanently damaged beyond repair.  Sometimes these "lungers" will seem to recover quite well, but as they grow bigger, their lung capacity isn't able to develop normally, and they eventually get big enough that their lungs can't provide enough Oxygen to support their larger bodies.  They are also not able to expel the carbon dioxide that their bodies produce, so they eventually die.  Hope this doesn't happen to yours.


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## jojobean (Jul 26, 2013)

Ok, and from what I read the Excede lasts seven days?  Should he get another dose after that?  If it lasts seven days then that will get him through until the vet gets back.

I was afraid of him having long-term damage.  I was hoping that there might be something that would lessen the damage, but looking back I think he has been dealing with this from when we brought him home.  I was so focused on scours and thought that the SMT would take care of anything else; I didn't put two and two together quick enough.


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## jhm47 (Jul 26, 2013)

Yes, the Excede will last 7 days, and if he were mine, I'd give him another shot.  Hopefully his lungs are not permanently damaged too much.  You will know as he grows bigger.  In my herd, I've experienced this quite a few times.  It's very difficult to catch calves when they are on pastures as large as ours.  We do check our cattle several times each week, but even a day or two with pneumonia will often cause irreparable damage to their lungs.  Not always, but often.


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## jojobean (Jul 27, 2013)

Not too sound completely heartless...but says he does pass, with the Excede in his system can we still, you know, eat him?  I know, it sounds awful, but it would be better in my mind for it not all to be a total grim and grum situation.  But I think that you can't slaughter for what, 14 days or something after using exceed?  I do not think he is going to make it that long tbh.  He is down today.  Was up and weakly walking, didn't nurse much, had to tube his breakfast. 

He is very obviously in discomfort, can't breathe well, grunting on the outbreath (can't expel the CO2, right?).    About once a day he gets like this and I go through the thought process that we should just end his suffering.  But then in the evening he pulls himself up to standing and shows some will to keep going.

Here is another weird question.  Again, me reaching.  I have a nebulizer that we have used on our human baby when she had severe lung issues (RSV), have the ...could I.....?  Probably not right, but...maybe? `Maybe not the steroids, but with saline?  No, right?


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## jojobean (Jul 27, 2013)

So the heat really does a number on him. Earlier, he had stood up, so I got him in the cooler part of the pen.  I went to check on him an hour later and he had laid down, but flopped out of the door and was half in and half out, laying in the sun, unresponsive.  I got him on a blanket and dragged him out (there was no pushing him back into the pen) to the shade.  He lay there without moving for a while, so I got him off of his side and up so he could lift his head, which he did.  I have been carefully switching the sides he is laying on throughout the day.  I have also been taking pictures that I will post regardless of the outcome in a few days.


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## Cricket (Jul 27, 2013)

I'd still say to brace him up so he's not laying flat, but I'm no good with the meds part.  I wouldn't eat meat from an animal with that much going on--don't know if it would be harmful, but doubt very tasty.  Hard to give up on them if they're still trying, isn't it?  I've seen some what I would consider to be miraculous survival stories, but often, as JHM said, you end up with permanent health issues and you wish you'd just let them go.  It's a really personal decision trying to balance their will to live against how much they're suffering.  Am feeling for you--wish I was more help!


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## jhm47 (Jul 27, 2013)

I would definitely not eat anything with drug residue in the tissues.  From what you are posting about his condition, I would also end his suffering.  You have tried as hard as you could, and did everything you could to save him, but sometimes it just isn't meant to be.  It's never easy to be in your situation, but take heart---you had good intentions, and tried the best you could.


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## jojobean (Jul 28, 2013)

Cricket:  agreed, I do try and put something behind him so he can't lay completely flat.  He seems to have more breathing troubles when he is flat.  And yes..it is so hard to even think about what probably should happen when the animal still has a little fight.   

JHM:  It may be time.  Not tonight....because it is late.  But he was much worse today, and it seems that there should have been some turn around by now.  

Thank you for the replies and the support.


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## jojobean (Jul 29, 2013)

copied and pasted my reply to the emergency thread:

Hubs put him down tonight.  It got very bad.  He became lame.  His front knee joint was swollen. Sometime between last night and this morning his left leg became septic.  Upon closer investigation I believe the main infection began in the umbilical area.  It wasn't drying properly and I did put iodine onto it, but I think he got an infection long ago.  Walking has not ever been easy for him, and now putting everything together, it makes sense why not.  I know his left leg wasn't that swollen yesterday as we had been carefully switching the sides he was laying on and both legs were still able to bend.  SO...I am not sure what started it all, but they all do seem to be connected.  This little calf had scours, pneumonia, and what looks like joint ill and septicemia.  This morning I was hopeful as he was still responsive to his name.  So quickly things got bad.  In a few days I will post some of the pictures I took, for informational purposes.


thank you all for your support.


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