# Before you all jump down my throat



## Shayanna (Sep 5, 2012)

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We will be getting a 7-8 week old pup here in about a week or two. Now before you get all huffy about it, hear me out. I have posted this over on HT, but I keep getting the same close-minded answers that have nothing to do with my question. This puppy is a mutt. A St. Bernard, Collie, Rottweiler, and Lab mix. Its purpose will be to be somewhat of a lgd. I have heard all of the debates about whether you absolutely need a specific LGD breed and yada yada, but that is not what I am asking. So if you are just going to post about how I should be getting a Maremma or a Great Pyrenese, forget it. The purpose of this dog is not necessarily to take down predators, just to keep them distant. (The coyotes around here are chickens and stay way from dogs.) Also, with our 3 strand electric fence (that works great for our goats) might not work so well with kids if they felt so inclined. Now my mother has one of these pups from last years litters, and it has shown great potential without training. She had a goat tethered in the yard, and the dog was relaxed as usual, but every time the goat got off the chain or broke it, the dog would herd the goat back to the tree it was tied up to. I, personally, thought that showed great potential. I figure if I can teach this puppy that the goats are supposed to stay in the fence, that if any kids wander out, the dog will correct this action. My mothers dog has never shown any signs of aggression towards livestock, doesn't chase, and has never even mouthed a farm animal. I would also like this dog to not kill/hurt any of our free ranging chickens that might wander out to pasture.

I am unsure of how to introduce it to our goats and getting the training started. I keep seeing articles about penning it up with a doe or kids, but this doesn't seem possible with our set up. We have a pretty natural setting for our goats. All of the does and buck stay together. We expect them to stay together to have their kids. The ten acres we have fenced in is fenced with 3 strands of electric wire. At night, the 7 goats have a 10 by 10 shed that they all fit quite comfortably in and can go in and out of freely, but most nights they choose to sleep outside. Should the pup be chained during the day in the main area near the goats until it learns the boundaries? Crated in the shed at night? Is it safe to put the dog in a crate, as some of my goats have horns? I know I sound like a terrible newb, but I need some advice.


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## Pearce Pastures (Sep 5, 2012)

Since you are not intending for it to be an LGD, I can tell you what we did with our mutt (ShepherdxSaluki).  We introduced her to the goats by having one of us hold the goat and one be ready to handle her, allowing for very controlled interaction.  We tried to impress on her that they are OURS and are important to us by scolding her whenever she approached them too quickly or even playfully.  

That being said, she is not allowed in the goat enclosure ever because she does not have the right temperment or breeding to actually live with them like an LGD.  She is very well trained, responds to over a dozen distinctly different commands but she still has that drive and playfully killed a few chickens prior to our getting goats so we already knew that she would not work that way.  BUT we have our goats in a fence within a fence...they are on the inside fenced area and she patrols the outside and does act as a deterrant to our coyotes and barks when they get close so we can go put the goats inside or get our gun.  She would not stand a chance against them though even though she is decent sized simply because of how coyotes function as a pack so we have done what we can to both contain her and the goats.

If you mean that you want her to sort of herd the goats back to where they are supposed to be if they do get out, I am not sure that will work and sorry if that offends but there are reasons for why people like the LGD.  I love my mix breed and don't really want an LGD but don't expect her to be one.

I would be looking to put up some wire fencing in addition to the hotwire.  Would she be okay chained up in the enclosure...she could get attacked by the goats and not be able to escape/or may actually hurt them too.  Will a horned goat hurt the puppy in the crate...maybe, it is possible.


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## Shayanna (Sep 5, 2012)

Thank you. I would like the dog to stay outside, near the goats. I was just thinking that if my mothers dog seemed to do so well knowing where the goats are supposed to be and keeping them there, maybe I could actually train a dog to do that same thing, and at the same time be a kind of deterrant to predators.


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## BrownSheep (Sep 5, 2012)

Our saints actually work as LGDs on the side. I actually think since you're starting with a puppy it will be easier than what most people seem to say. We train ours to the sheep like we train the to the cats. If they misbehave they get spanked. When I got my younger saint. Actually would leave her in with the sheep, but I wouldn't suggest chaining her in there. Our sheep did a lot of puppy tumbling and had she been chained I think she would probably have gotten hurt. If you can I would place a dog run or something within the pasture for her.

The herding behavior you describe isnt really LDG behavior. Herding dogs aren't guard dogs. The instincts required for each behavior is contradictory to each other. Herding ,IMO, utilizes the prey drive to some extent. I'm not saying you couldn't have it herd because the genetics is there for it in the border collie. 

If I was in your position I think I would focus on an out of field LGD. None of my dogs live in the field with our sheep. They guard outside the fences. in our situation this works best. I also wouldnt allow any dog younger than three in at lambing or kidding. At 2 they are really just big puppies that get excited with new things that werent there last night . The largest part of gaurding is just barking. They are going to bark and bark and bark.... Mainly at night.

The breed combo in your puppy makes me a little nervous ( mainly just the prey drive from the lab).  Please, remember that just because this puppy's sibling could work as an LGD doesn't mean yours will inherit the same instincts. I hope it all works out to where you have a wonderful LGD


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## bonbean01 (Sep 5, 2012)

We do not have a LGD for our sheep and chickens...but we do have a high prey Crazy Maizey dog who is a mutt.  We never have her in with the sheep or chickens, but when the sheep are out in the pasture she is chained in the shade outside their fence.  Her bark is loud and she alerts us to any and all animals coming on or near our property...here our biggest problem is local dogs, but we do have coyotes howling at lambing time.  So...she does her job alerting us to any intruders and we can hear her from the house.  Works for us and is a big help.

Your puppy may become a good alert system for you.


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## Shayanna (Sep 17, 2012)

Got our puppy yesterday. It is an 8 week old  mutt. First thing it did when set down on our farm was try to figure out who its "friends" were. So we walked it out to the goats. He sat down just outside the "herd" and watched. Soon it became apparent that he was very taken with Fern, our Nubian doe that has never been bred but has very motherly instincts. He followed her around and she let him. He didn't act excitable, or like he wanted to play, but he stuck with them. I am proud. Even our buck accepted him right away! Our buck wasn't even that nice to the 6 month old whether we introduced. We built a goat-safe-pen inside the goat shed, where the puppy will go to eat, sleep, or just be away from the goats if they get too rough. Things are working out well so far. Maybe I will post pics later on.


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## secuono (Sep 17, 2012)

The dog still needs to be out with those animals and learning how they act and the sounds they make. With you right there to slap it's bum if it does anything in the direction of not passive. The livestock needs to come first, then the dog. Just like if you had a Chihuahua and got a large breed dog. You teach the new bigger dog to obey and submit to the chihuahua, or one day, the big dog will just 'eat it'.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Sep 17, 2012)

Shayanna,  best wishes for you and your new pup!  Yes we all love pictures and hearing success stories of how others homesteads are doing.  Sounds like you are off to a great start.


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## Roscommon Acres (Oct 15, 2012)

It actually sounds like a decent mix for a good all around farm dog and that may be more what you need than an LGD, anyway. I am speaking from my experience with English Shepherds, not LGDs. (We just got a Great Pyrenees, but I don't know what I'm doing and mostly hoping that what I read on the internet translates to a good dog!)

A good farm dog recognizes who belongs where and who doesn't belong anywhere. When I tie a heifer in the windbreak, they raise a raucous if she gets off and wanders into the turnips. Same if they leave the pasture. They learn through routine. If you do something every day, they know that is the way it is done, and they'll join in and try to keep things the way you put them. Sometimes they learn wrong and you just have to keep a sense of humor and not give up on them.

When we first got our steer, he spent a couple weeks in the barn while we finished fencing (long story, but it was a 4H thing and we thought we were getting him in February and received a call in November that we had to come get him that day!) From that, the dogs decided that's where he belonged and they'd stand at the barn door and hold him there. We'd call them off and go inside, but if we let them out, they'd go find that steer and drive him back into the barn. It took two weeks of leading him out every morning (rather than just opening the door) before they finally realized he was supposed to be out during the day and in at night. Which of course meant they started chasing him out of the barn during the day!

They did well with poultry, but free ranging stresses one of our dogs. She wants them to belong somewhere and she just keeps trying to get them in the henhouse. She's eased up on that a lot as she's aged, but "wherever they want to go" is a hard concept for these kinds of dogs to grasp.

And they can be protective of the flock. Our Timmy breaks up fights between the chickens and sends the aggressor off before coming back to the "victim" and sniffs it over and gives it a good kiss before leaving it to roam. And they do not tolerate anything that doesn't belong. Even new livestock has to be introduced. (When one of our dogs went on a killing spree, I was baffled until I realized she was targeting the new chickens. It never occurred to me that she would know this chicken belonged here and this one didn't. A little introduction, and that was over.)

Mine do not abide coyotes. They patrol the property at night and turn from passive, playful goofballs to snarling demons if they sense them about. Nice thing is, though, unlike the LGDs, they don't really take off after them. They know our property line and they generally respect it. They only take off if all the dogs are out together (pack behavior is different from individual dogs' behaviors). Alone, they pace the property line growling and barking. If it sounds serious, I get the other dogs and go outside and they'll become a little more aggressive and move toward the coyotes, but I don't let them go too far. I let them go about 20 feet off property before calling them back.

We decided to get an LGD as well when our calf was attacked by something. I think a pack of coyotes, but I'm not sure. They stopped it and drove it off and she's fine, now, but they don't really patrol the other side of the windbreak where the pasture is. We wanted a dog that we could leave out there and not worry about at night.


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## Lupa Duende (Nov 4, 2012)

I did the same kind of thing.


Two years ago I found some giant breed mutts covered in poo and flies in a lady's barn. I offered her money and took them home and the children and I bathed them until they stopped smelling so bad. we took them to our village vet who tested the bejeezus out of them and then we started in on puppy classes..., soon we had two fantastic family dogs. I developed a hankering for more than just the ordinary 2 cats 2 dogs thing and before i knew it was was offering a man far to much money for psycho goats. the dogs wanted to kill the goats and the goats wanted to run to the motorway to be smushed or eat my neighbours' flower.

i tethered them all. each goat and both dogs had ten foot tethers. i changed their little octogon of love every hour (mind you the goats who rather die than be touched by PyschoMum and the children were terrified. i brought everyone their own waterbucket but kept moving the tethers so the goats would forget and forage and my hounds would fall asleep (giant breeds snooze much of the day).

Withing a fortnight the dogs stopped caring about the goats and Beatrice was able to wander round free again. it took longer for my other dog, but both girls eventually would fall asleep next to the goats with the chickens and ducks walking over them. 

i never asked for a LGD; I just wanted our critters to be kind to one another. now I have lost one of my dogs to horrific spinal torsion. her spine was all bunched up and ibuprofen couldn't keep her out of pain. 

My other dog, Gypsum, is lonely and bored and i have started cruising Petfinder looking for another big fluffy dog. 

they didn't herd the animals; they didn't defend them but life was good. my girls had issues with people (except brawny construction chaps) but not animals.

if anyone knows of any big wooly hounds in the southwest of Quebec..., ok anywhere really I would love to adopt another one. it is hard work but rewarding work to train critters to get along. i think any mutt is a good mutt.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 4, 2012)

An LGD doesn't have to be a specific breed and anyone who insists that it does is full of baloney.  An LGD has to have a specific temperament and training, training, training.  It should be raised from a pup around livestock.  But that isn't a hard and fast rule either.  

Some breeds are better than others but really the key is to train and work with the dog and do it from a very young age.  I think you are on the right track.  Work hard with that pup and work daily.  You will know soon enough if it has the right temperament.  

My LGD is a Siberian Husky.  She started her career at age 8.


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## terrilhb (Nov 5, 2012)

These are my 2 dogs that live with my does and my chickens. They will be 10 months in about 2 weeks. They are fantastic with the goats. Especially the 5 month old doeling. She loves to play with them.  They are getting better with the chickens. I never leave them unattended with them. Thankfully I learned without having to lose one. But they are getting better. They have learned the words Leave it very well. What ever is in their mouths they drop. Or if they are going to get it they stop in their tracks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 They have alot more to learn. But they know what belongs and what does not. And they have no problem letting me know. I am really proud of them.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 5, 2012)

Sorry Queen Mum but I disagree completely. Not just any dog can be an LGD. I know alot of people think that esp. when they have a dog that is able to be in with goats or sheep. They think that their dog is an LGD because they throw it in with the animals and because they bark at creatures in the dark they can somehow guard and protect them. Or that they are good with them and don't chase. They like my goats or sheep. Not true. Dogs like Huskies or Labs or Collies or Shetlands or  retriever etc. are NOT LGD's. Sure they may not hurt your animals and they may be really good with them and they may bark in the night but they can NOT take large animals down such as Coyotes, Bobcats, Wolves, other dogs, etc. They don't have any of what they need to do that. They were not bred to do that and they're lacking the strength, the power, and the instincts. LGD breeds were bred for that. They have the size, the power and the instincts. The difference between all these so called LGD's and real ones is just that. It drives me crazy to hear people talking about their dog and how it's an LGD. It's not!! I'm not going to put my Anatolian or my Great Pyrenees and put them on a sled team or put them in an agility course. I'm not going to go hunting with them. They are not bred for that just as all these so called LGD's are not bred for guarding livestock. So I really wish people would stop saying their mutt dogs that have no LGD breed in them can guard their animals. No, they can bark at something in the woods and kill a rabbit. They can't run thru the woods or fields in the black night, chasing a pack of wolves or coyotes with their LGD teammates and kill them. That's what LGD's do. They were bred for it. 
Also, LGD breed X an LGD breed is an LGD. Not

Anyone that has a REAL LGD knows this and anyone that disagrees with me, just go get yourself a real one and you'll see EXACTLY what I'm saying. 

The other difference is the famous term "training". LGD's are NOT trained to do what they do, it's INSTINCTUAL. LGD's are 100% submissive to their livestock, THEY DO NOT play with the livestock. It drives me crazy when people say their LGD's play with their goats. That tells me that they either have a non-LGD breed crossed into them or they have none in them. I have NEVER heard of a real true LGD ever playing with their livestock. It doesn't happen and that is a sign of a bad dog and shows me exactly what you have. That being, a fake LGD. They do not need to be penned apart from the livestock at any time. btw chickens are NOT livestock and this is where some issues come into play. LGD's were not bred to guard birds. You can get them to but it is very hard and most of the time it takes a year or more. 

Farm dogs or ranch dogs are great but they can't do what an LGD does. They are good 'warners' against people or strange animals on the farm but they may or may not be able to kill them. Sure they can kill a rabbit, squirrel, or raccoon, but I've never seen any of those kill a baby kid or lamb.  They can scare them off and let you know that something is there but most of the time they can not take care of the issue themselves. It is not about "my dog is better than your dog" it is about understanding the nature of a breed and what they were meant to do. 300 acres, wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, bobcats, HMMMMM Huskies or Anatolians? (or any TRUE LGD) No brainer here!!


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## Roll farms (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree that what LGDs do is instinctual, bred into them, not 'training'.
I agree that true LGD breeds are 'better' than non-LGD breeds b/c _they will bond_ with the animals they live with, and a good one refuses to leave their pen, even to be with their 'master' or another dog, etc.  

I also agree that non-LGD breeds may guard your farms, animals, bark, and kill vermin....but that doesn't make them a true LGD.  

I also feel like IF you are willing to supervise / train (and accept the consequences when and if things go wrong), i*t's your business if you use a non-LGD breed*....but please don't tell me it's 'better' or even 'as good as', UNLESS you have used a true LGD.  Adequate?  Maybe  But w/ no experience w/ the real deal, you can't really say. 

I've been 'farming' almost 20 yrs now.  I've had 14 dogs over that time-span, everything from mutts to Bassett hounds to husky x sheperd, to LGDs and poodles and a Newfie. 

My father rented from a farmer when I was a kid.  Lived on a 500 acre sheep and cattle farm.  He raised Siberian Huskies.  When his females would have pups, they almost always found a way to get out and go kill a ewe or lamb or two and my dad had to reimburse the farmer.  Never bothered the livestock the rest of the time, but instinct is instinct.
I wouldn't even consider owning a husky while I own livestock, much less using one to guard the livestock.  Personal choice, but I grew up seeing what they're capable of...and would always worry about, "What if they got out?"
If someone chooses to do so, great...I just wouldn't.  I'm not saying you're wrong to do so, and again, more power to you if it's successful....but since I have experience with LGD and huskies, I choose to use LGDs.

SHK, I disagree w/ a couple things you said....Any LGD under 18 mos. can and will 'play' with their goats, because they're puppies and they're bonding to the goats / sheep / whatever....they play w/ them like littermates.
Gus, who I guarantee you is half pyr, half anatolian, LOVES to play 'head butt games' with Penny, and he's 3.5 now.  It breaks up the monotony for him, I guess, and she's the only one he 'plays' with.

I have a couple goats w/ ripped ears from when Razor and Edge were pups and they played too roughly.  They are wonderful dogs NOW (well, Razor has passed but he was the BEST)...but as youngsters they were a handful and had to be corrected when too rough.  Anyone who hasn't actually raised some pups up w/ young goats and seen what that can lead to....shouldn't be telling others they don't need seperated.  I believe keeping unsupervised LGD pups w/ young goats is a recipe for disaster and anyone who didn't have a problem doing so....was lucky.

That is how you end up w/ problems....when the inexperienced try to tell others how to do things based on their opinions alone.

Get what you want to...but don't trust it, regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase.  And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life.  We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.


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## Oakroot (Nov 5, 2012)

> Get what you want to...but don't trust it, regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase.  And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life.  We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.


^This^ for any breed of dog in any situation.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 5, 2012)

I respectfully disagree.  My dog can run through the woods and take down a coyote and has.  In fact, she chased down a wolf hybrid and took it out.  She has also taken on a bear (didn't kill it, but kept it at bay and  chased it off for three weeks running.)  And she has been pretty good to keep other  prey animals away from my goats, including coons, snakes, etctera - Successfully.  She is a great LGD.  She has the instinct for it and is good at it.   

I don't recommend Huskies for LGD's because they are naturally prey dogs.  It's a disaster waiting to happen as a rule.    This one is an exception.  BUT The exception goes to show that it is possible for dogs other than "bred LGD's" to be LGD's"  This particular dog seems to have the temperament for it.  I've seen LGD's of all sorts who are very good at it.  Mostly in Australia.  

It is a temperament thing.  Not all dogs are good at it and not all dogs can handle it.  AND some animals which are bred for it are lousy at it.  I have seen Pyrs who are the worst LGD's ever.  And some mutt dogs  excel at it.     And it is dog specific.  Some breeds are better at it than others and size can be an issue but not neccesarily.  It is a temperament thing and a training issue.

I definitely agree with Roll about NOT blaming the dog when things go wrong.  People tend to not pay attention to the animals in the adolescent stage and not to be vigilant with their training at that point.  Then when things go wrong they blame the dog.  That always frosts my cookies.  Animals do what comes naturally to them. LGD's are no exception.  If you want them to guard your livestock you have to teach them to be good guardians.  Not good playmates.


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## Ownedby3alpacas (Nov 5, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> An LGD doesn't have to be a specific breed and anyone who insists that it does is full of baloney.  An LGD has to have a specific temperament and training, training, training.  It should be raised from a pup around livestock.  But that isn't a hard and fast rule either.
> 
> Some breeds are better than others but really the key is to train and work with the dog and do it from a very young age.  I think you are on the right track.  Work hard with that pup and work daily.  You will know soon enough if it has the right temperament.
> 
> My LGD is a Siberian Husky.  She started her career at age 8.





			
				Queen Mum said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree.  My dog can run through the woods and take down a coyote and has.  In fact, she chased down a wolf hybrid and took it out.  She has also taken on a bear (didn't kill it, but kept it at bay and  chased it off for three weeks running.)  And she has been pretty good to keep other  prey animals away from my goats, including coons, snakes, etctera - Successfully.  She is a great LGD.  She has the instinct for it and is good at it.
> 
> I don't recommend Huskies for LGD's because they are naturally prey dogs.  It's a disaster waiting to happen as a rule.    This one is an exception.  BUT The exception goes to show that it is possible for dogs other than "bred LGD's" to be LGD's"  This particular dog seems to have the temperament for it.  I've seen LGD's of all sorts who are very good at it.  Mostly in Australia.
> 
> ...


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## mickey328 (Nov 5, 2012)

I'd also suggest that if you can feed the pup a little of the goats' milk, it should help some.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 5, 2012)

@Rolls
You make a great point about bonding that I completely missed. True LGD's will bond with their livestock and it is pretty rare that just any dog will bond with goats or sheep. You will see someone's dog bond with a cat and you do sometimes see them bond with other animals such as a goat or sheep but more times than not it is a single animal they bonded with, not a herd or flock as an LGD will do. So very good point there.



> I also feel like IF you are willing to supervise / train (and accept the consequences when and if things go wrong), it's your business if you use a non-LGD breed....but please don't tell me it's 'better' or even 'as good as', UNLESS you have used a true LGD.


I agree. It's not my business to tell you what type of dog to use to guard livestock but I do not agree at all that non-LGD breeds can do even as close as good a job as a real LGD. They just don't. It goes back to what I said before. Go get a real one and you'll see what I'm talking about. I see that you agree with that too. Nobody should say that their dog is as good as an LGD because they've never had an LGD so they have no idea. LGD's are a different world.



> SHK, I disagree w/ a couple things you said....Any LGD under 18 mos. can and will 'play' with their goats, because they're puppies and they're bonding to the goats / sheep / whatever....they play w/ them like littermates.


I disagree. I have never seen LGD pups play with the livestock and NEVER bite ears. If I had a dog that nipped or bit my goats even if they are pups or playing, that dog would be corrected immediately. I know the dogs play together but I would never let my dog do that to the goats. imo no matter what, even if the goat is mean, I will never tolerate my dog going after or acting aggressive to my livestock. My Kiko does really don NOT like Callie. They grew up on a farm where they had herding dogs. They would chase and bite the goats to herd them. Now they hate dogs. They have come around a little but still mean and dislike dogs. Callie submits tot hem and does everything an LGD is supposed to do with them. She does NOT bite, play, mess around, etc. with them at all. She will lie down and submit, she does not look them in the eyes, she does not challenge them. Those are all good. She does this even what Alana or Arianna just bulldoze into her and throw him to the ground. She doesn't bark at them or nip. Nothing. That is what they are supposed to do imo. Never do I want my dog playing and biting my goats. I don't care if they are young or old. Goat or dog.



> Anyone who hasn't actually raised some pups up w/ young goats and seen what that can lead to....shouldn't be telling others they don't need seperated.


If you are referring to me I would like to let you know that I have raised my dog with young goats. The Pyrs here were also raised with young goats. 
Are you saying to separate LGD pups and goats? If so, that's wrong. You may not put them in with the goats from birth but at 9-10 weeks they can go out with the goats. Of course you need to keep an eye out because the goats could hurt or even kill them as they are still very young. But yes, LGD pups should be raised with the livestock as young as they can be. That's how they bond.



> regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase.  And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life.  We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.


How long is your definition of 'puppy stage'? Many dogs can still act like pups at a year old!! I'm curious to know how you define that. 
And what exactly do you mean by "if it's set up to fail from the get-go."?


@Queen Mum


> My dog can run through the woods and take down a coyote and has.  In fact, she chased down a wolf hybrid and took it out.  She has also taken on a bear (didn't kill it, but kept it at bay and  chased it off for three weeks running.)


I do not mean to be rude but I'm sorry. No Husky on this planet is an LGD. Sure it may have killed a coyote. Maybe it killed a wolf-hybrid and maybe it chased a bear away once. When it comes down to it, a Husky is not an LGD. It is not breed for it and it could not roam large amounts of land and take on a pack of coyotes. It may be able to semi-protect your little farm but it could not guard 100+ acres everyday all day and take down what it needs to take down. It's a Husky. It just CAN NOT do that. Again, get a real LGD and you will see what I'm talking about. You really will!! LGD's are not soemthing you can understand until you've had some. You just can't.



> It is a temperament thing. It is a temperament thing and a training issue.


I'm not really sure if it is a temperament thing. Sure that may help but does said dog have the power, strength, intelligence, and instincts for it? LGD's are LGD's because they were bred for just those things!! Just because a dog has killed something is likes the goats does NOT make it an LGD. It's not a training issue. LGD's use their instincts. No training needed. Sorry.



> AND some animals which are bred for it are lousy at it.  I have seen Pyrs who are the worst LGD's ever.  And some mutt dogs  excel at it. And it is dog specific.


Sure some LGD's are not as good. That would be a dog issue and not the breed issue. All true LGD's are great at what they do. There are a very few exceptions. It's not very often you find an LGD from guarding lines (not show lines) that is bad or 'lousy' at it's job. Be hard to find them. And no, it is not dog specific. It's BREED specific. LGD's and non-LGDs that people think are LGD's.



> Some breeds are better at it than others and size can be an issue but not neccesarily.


Yes, some breeds are better than others. Those would be the LGD breeds. Size. Not an issue? LOL Really? So you're going to have 60-75 pound dog out in your field. What happens when you have a Mountain Lion or a Wolf come in? There is no way that dog takes either one of them down. They may have a hard time with even a coyote, and they're rather small animals. You MUST have a dog that is large or big, but is still agile and quick on it's feet. That is a must. We all know that German Shepherds are one of the fiercest dogs in the world. One of the best dog breeds out there no doubt about it, but not even the most fierce GSD could ever kill a large animal like a wolf. They sure have the bite power and the ability to kill but they would lose big time just due to the wolf's size. Same thing will any large predator. So you can have the best and fiercest dog in the world but in order to guard livestock it better have that size or it's going to end up dead. So yes, size is too an issue.


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## babsbag (Nov 5, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Get what you want to...but don't trust it, regardless of breed, w/ out supervision, until they're past the puppy phase.  And don't blame the dog if things go south on you ...ANY dog needs to be shown what is and is not acceptable, regardless of it's purpose in life.  We can't blame the dog if it's set up to fail from the get-go.


My Pyr/ Maremma is 2 years old and I still have to supervise him around new kids. Not the ones that are born here, but ones that I buy. They are not his goats until I tell him otherwise. I use the same method with a new goat as a new chicken. The new goats get introduced, then the goat gets penned where the dogs can see her for a few days, then she gets introduced again with me there. By that time the dog has accepted her and ignore her, but the first introduction isn't so easy. My LGD will try and grab her by the neck or ear, I am not sure what his intentions are, but I don't want to find out either. He isn't growling, or vicious, but still not a behavior I tolerate.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 5, 2012)

The dogs here do the same thing. It's not their's and they know it. They check them out and they really don't like it when you just throw new animals in with them. The realize that it is something foreign in with their animals. It's quite amazing.


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## Grazer (Nov 5, 2012)

I just wanted to say that I agree with Straw Hat Kikos.
Until one has owned a true LGD breed (and by that I mean breeds from this list here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog#List_of_breeds), one won't understand the difference between breeds that were bred to guard livestock for centuries and breeds that were bred to do something entirely different, in some cases also for centuries.

The instincts, the power and the speed of a true LGD breed is really something one has to experience themselves by owning such a breed to understand just what exactly sets them apart from non-LGD breeds. 
Which is why I always say that if you want a working dog for a specific task, then get the breed that was actually bred to do that job. 
That way there will be a far better chance that you will get exactly what you were looking for in a dog. 

P.S. just because someone refers to their dog as a wolf hybrid, doesn't necessarily means that's true. There are a lot of scammers out there who mix GSD's, husky's and other Spitz-type or Northern-type dogs together and then sell them as wolf hybrids.

P.P.S 
I also agree with Roll farms, it's best to observe and when needed correct any breed of dog around livestock and poultry until that dog is fully mature. 
And when that's not possible (like during the night when people are sleeping) to keep them separated from the animals, just to avoid any bad habits from forming. Like chasing the animals or even attacking them.
With dogs it can be quite challenging to fix a bad habit once it forms so better safe than sorry I always say.


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## Roll farms (Nov 5, 2012)

> I disagree. I have never seen LGD pups play with the livestock and NEVER bite ears. If I had a dog that nipped or bit my goats even if they are pups or playing, that dog would be corrected immediately.


That's my point,* you've never seen it.  *
I have.   Many times.  After I got home from work or got to the barn for chores...to find a stressed out kid and a sleeping, worn out LGD pup, happy w/ his day's "work".  

The behavior SHOULD be corrected immediately.  You're right there.  But if I'm at work or asleep or just not there when it happens, I can't correct it very well, can I?

You have had / raised 1 or 2 young dogs and not had any bad experiences..... but that isn't the be all and end all of what happens...

I'm talking newborn kids w/ a 4 mo. old pup.  How many very young kids have you left ALONE with a 4-5 mo. old dog w/out the mama goat around?  None?  Then you don't KNOW what would happen....and you cannot correct them if you're not there 24-7...so it's SAFER to leave the dogs w/ older goats who won't tolerate any BS from the dogs until the dog is old enough to know better.

I should probably seperate the pup from the young goats then, until I CAN be there to supervise, shouldn't I? 

I am telling you, from 20 yrs worth of observing these forums and reading horror story after horror story of hurt animals....And my own experience breeding / raising / watching....but what do I know?

You're the expert.  I'll stop trying to offer knowledgeable, experienced advice on the subject.  Better to have info based on your untested opinion.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 5, 2012)

@Rolls

I am not talking about keeping a pup in with just kids. We both know that both puppies and kids aren't going to know what to do. You're putting a pup who is 'untrained' in what it is supposed to do in with baby goats who also don't know what to do. What I am talking about is in a general sense. You can go ahead and dissect this as much as you want but in the most common cases what I am saying is true.
If I have a pup in with just kids I'm also going to have a mature dog in there too. That mature dog is not going to allow that puppy to be biting and attacking baby goats. The older dog will train into the pup that it is not supposed to do that. It will teach that puppy what is ok an not ok. That's why people always recommend you have a pup with a mature dog. So you can prevent those. Now say you don't have a mature dog. Well 99% of the time if you have a baby goat and an LGD pup you also have a mom for that baby goat. Well that goat is not going to allow that pup to hurt or mess around with her kid. She will get her kid away or get the dog away, either by chasing it away or hitting it. So while it is not good to have a pup with just kids that doesn't happen that often. Most of the time there is an older dog or older goats there.

Now I'm not saying that you should always just throw a dog in with a bunch of mature goats. I know some of my goats are pretty darn mean to my dogs. Throwing a puppy in with them would be a bad idea. They very well may kill that pup. You must know your animals well and make that decision yourself. I am against the constant penning of LGD pups that everyone seems to be doing now. When you do that you cause the dog to become bonded with it's area and surroundings instead of the animals. So I am not completely anti-cage as it is needed sometimes but if you have older dogs you can keep the pup with the livestock 99% of the time. 

Rolls, I am not fighting you or saying you are wrong. I am going to say what I believe to be true and right. I actually agree with you in your reasoning there but that is not very likely that you only have a young pup without an older dog to teach it and/or no older does. It's just not overly likely. So again I am not calling you out and saying you are wrong. I have agreed with nearly all you have said and the same in this case. You are calling me out on this example but I was not talking about JUST pup and baby goats. That was not what I was talking about. I was talking about the most common situations, which would be that you do have an older dog or a momma goat around. So what you are saying against what I was saying is based on a false assumption.



> You're the expert.  I'll stop trying to offer knowledgeable, experienced advice on the subject.  Better to have info based on your untested opinion.


As for this. I do know you have MANY more years on me. I know you are more experienced than I. I am not disputing that in any way nor am I saying you are wrong. I have only said that I disagree with some of what you had said. I have that right to disagree just as you do to me. So leave that kind of talk out of it. You have done the same thing before. When we disagreed on another subject you started saying that you are more experienced and that I have none. You also said that you won't say anything more because I know more with my lack of experience and knowledge. I really don't know why you do that just because I disagree. I do not do that to you when you disagree with me.
I would like it if you would drop that and just argue your point just as I do mine.


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## elevan (Nov 5, 2012)

_We've chewed this bone quite a bit here folks and it's starting to fray.  Take a breath and come back later when you've rested._ 


THE #1 consideration in any livestock guardian (be it dog or otherwise) is temperament.  Just because the breed (or species) is generally considered right doesn't mean the individual will be.

Additionally, each herd / flock owner always needs to decide what is best for them.  Do the research first and then make a choice knowing what could go wrong.

I don't have an LGD but if I did it would be a respected breed from a working line.  I use a llama and thankfully he has the temperament for the job.


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## RemudaOne (Nov 6, 2012)

Good post, thanks elevan. Only we, as individuals, can determine what is best for our individual needs in our individual environments and individual situations.


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