# Working with Colors - Lionheads



## Ms. Research (Jan 9, 2012)

OK, the long trip fell through on my end, darn, so I've been working diligently all day yesterday looking for Purebred Lionheads.  Found breeders in PA and NJ who really have some awesome lionheads.  

So new about colors.  Love colors but need to know how to get them.  

Have a chance to get:  

Blue 
Black
Chocolate
REW

Not sexed yet.  


I am considering going with the Blue and Black.  Both are double mane.    I hear REW and Chocolate are hard colors to work with.

Any suggestions or input will be greatly appreciated.  I think I would like to stick with the Black (B line) and the blue is in the Black line as well.  Can get Torts, solids, 

And does the buck's color dominate.   Plus does the buck pass the double mane gene?


Thanks for the help.  Really excited and have lots of different options.  

K


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## Bunnylady (Jan 9, 2012)

Can't help you with the mane thing, because I have no experience with Lionheads. Don't want any, either - seen too much trouble with them locally. (suspect bad local breeders) 

But on the matter of color - that I do know a bit about.

If you are breeding with an eye toward producing showable rabbits, well, maybe you can find a place to show Lionheads. I believe it is still at the discretion of the group holding the show at this time, whether they will accept Lionheads or not. But black and blue do give you the highest likelihood of producing rabbits that won't be DQ'd because of color. If you just want to produce pretty bunnies, that would depend on how you define "pretty." Some non-showable colors can be really eye-catching.

Black, blue and chocolate are all self-based colors, and the self gene is recessive, so you could breed those colors together and all you'd get would be self-based colors (no tan patterns or agouti patterns). While REW is called a self color for show purposes, you can't really tell whether a REW carries agouti or tan genes, so you'd have to look at the pedigree and maybe test breed a time or two to know what genes may be hidden by the white coat and pink eyes (I had a broken REW once, lol). Some people may tell you that breeding to a REW will give you babies with white hairs scattered in the coat or mismatched claws or whatever. Not all REW's carry genes for things like that, the problem is, you can't tell by looking at a REW if it has such a gene, so you can't breed away from traits like that with REW's. 

Chocolate has a reputation for being a tough color to breed, but that depends on what you're doing. Most chocolates are perfectly fine, color-wise. The problem is, chocolate is recessive, and while the simple self-based versions of chocolate (chocolate and lilac) are usually showable, most of the agouti- and tan-based variations aren't, in any breed (a few breeds do accept tan-based chocolates - for example, a chocolate silver marten). Siamese-type patterns and the torts are hardly ever showable in chocolate versions. Since chocolate is a recessive gene, you can't see which rabbits are carrying it. Breed two rabbits carrying chocolate together, and you may wind up with babies that really have you scratching your head trying to figure out what color they are! Also, some people get so hung up on the color, they ignore all other features of the rabbit, so you can find some pretty poor specimens in some of the rarer colors that are being bred simply because they are the "right" color.

Blue is black plus dilution genes. Breeding black to blue will give you black babies for sure. If the black has a dilution gene, you may also get blue babies. Depending on what other recessive genes are present (but aren't being expressed) in the parents, you may get torts or siamese patterns, both in full or maybe dilute form. REW may even be a possibility. I look at the pedigree, that will often give you a clue about what may be lurking in the background, but even then you can get some surprises. I tell people, "never mind what the percentages say. Whatever color you are looking for, it'll be the last one you'll see - they love to drive you crazy like that!"

I've heard people try to claim that certain colors are somehow "stronger" than others. That is nonsense. It doesn't matter what color which rabbit is, the results are random. When we say that breeding the black offspring of a blue and a black (in other words, a rabbit that is heterozygous for dilute) to a blue (homozygous for dilute) gives you a 50/50 chance of producing a blue, that means that every baby that pair produces has a 50% chance of being blue. It does not mean that every litter they produce will be half blues, and half blacks. It doesn't even mean that the lifetime production of that pair will be half blue and half black. Now, if you could somehow get that pair to produce 1000 babies, roughly 500 would be blue, and the remainder black, but a sample group as small as what they would be likely to produce could be skewed strongly one way or the other, and still be considered "normal"  statistically.


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## Ms. Research (Jan 9, 2012)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Can't help you with the mane thing, because I have no experience with Lionheads. Don't want any, either - seen too much trouble with them locally. (suspect bad local breeders)
> 
> But on the matter of color - that I do know a bit about.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this education on color.    It's been a huge help.

K


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## DKRabbitry (Jan 9, 2012)

That was a great explination bunnylady!

I am just going to go ahead and say "Ditto" to that!

If it were me, just starting out, knowing what I know now... I would go with the Blues & Blacks at first.  Then, if you like breeding and everything and want to do some experimenting, do so.  I found that it is much easier to have a bigger herd to experiment.  If you breed "safer" colors where you know pretty much what you will get, you don't end up with as many wasted, not showable rabbits.  We had a lot of meat rabbits that were just off colors from wanting to see what happened when X was bred to Y.


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## SmallFarmGirl (Jan 9, 2012)

Good luck with the bunnies and all the wonderful colors!!


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## Ms. Research (Jan 9, 2012)

DKRabbitry said:
			
		

> That was a great explination bunnylady!
> 
> I am just going to go ahead and say "Ditto" to that!
> 
> If it were me, just starting out, knowing what I know now... I would go with the Blues & Blacks at first.  Then, if you like breeding and everything and want to do some experimenting, do so.  I found that it is much easier to have a bigger herd to experiment.  *If you breed "safer" colors where you know pretty much what you will get, you don't end up with as many wasted, not showable rabbits.*  We had a lot of meat rabbits that were just off colors from wanting to see what happened when X was bred to Y.


Starting out with a buck and two does.  You hit the nail on the head .. playing it safe.   Blue and Blacks.    Now I know what colors I want. 

But most importantly double manes, no problems with teeth due to being a smaller size, good conformation.  

then safe colors.  

Now I'm really hoping that one of those blues are a buck.

Thanks DKRabbitry for your input.  Appreciate it.  

K


eta:  I'm well aware that Lionheads are not recognized by ARBA.  But hopefully one day they will.


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## DKRabbitry (Jan 9, 2012)

Got my fingers crossed that you get the sexes you want in the colors you want with no visits from the sex-change fairy after they are home!


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## Ms. Research (Jan 9, 2012)

DKRabbitry said:
			
		

> Got my fingers crossed that you get the sexes you want in the colors you want with no visits from the sex-change fairy after they are home!


lol.  Thanks. 

Didn't even think of that.  lol  

K


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