# Emergency - Goat labor



## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

Goat has been in labor but not pushing for hours. Baby blocking canal. Can feel baby or two moving in belly. Have Karo syrup and nutridrench. Do I go back in and pull baby when she’s not pushing.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

Yes!  You must go in and pull that baby!


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

Pull up then down?


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

First figure out what position the baby is in.  But the baby must be through the cervix before you pull down


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

Is this a standard size goat or a small breed?


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Is this a standard size goat or a small breed?


She's a boer if I recall. Yep, double checked the old thread and it's a boer. Standard


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

Ok- that's better than a Pygmy!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

@Southern by choice 
@Goat Whisperer 
@babsbag 

Thought I'd tag these folks in case they see it. Hope I did that right.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 14, 2018)

Yes, what @frustratedearthmother  said.
Relax... use LOTS and LOTS of lube... like pour it in there!
When you go in feel - breathe, relax, and feel.  I never worry about head first. If you have a butt push in and find legs pull legs out and the rest will come. You want the kid belly down though - not belly up.
Gravity- use it! Lift the rear of the goat up in the air, like chest to the ground... this helps the kid to go back in enough for you to feel and grab legs if nec.
If you you feel the head but legs are back, that's ok too. grab in the mouth if need be and pull. If you hav a birthing snare now id the time to use it.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 14, 2018)




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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

@SBC- you are so much more detail oriented than me!   Great info!


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> @SBC- you are so much more detail oriented than me!   Great info!


You both are awesome  for helping her, i am reliving the Samantha situation....i pray this works out wonderfully...thank you ladies for comming to her rescue , barb


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

I hope she's been able to make some progress.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

So far we got one. I had to go in and pull it out. It's s girl. She’s alive and beautiful. I know there is at least one more. How long do I wait before I go in.  Dotti is cleaning her up now.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> So far we got one. I had to go in and pull it out. It's s girl. She’s alive and beautiful. I know there is at least one more. How long do I wait before I go in.  Dotti is cleaning her up now.


That is awesome. I'm so happy for you!


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

Oh ...so happy...crying big girl tears of happiness... thank you SBS and FEM you are wonderful !


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## Southern by choice (Nov 14, 2018)

When the birth has been difficult you just go in and get them all. The dam will be exhausted.  Give Nutridrench, she will need it. Keep a close eye on her. If she is too weak she may have difficulty with nursing, help clean kids off too. 
Monitor the dam. Tomorrow morning take the dam's temperature. Keep an eye on it.

Glad you have the one out. Hope all continues to go well. 

Did you wear gloves?


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## babsbag (Nov 14, 2018)

Well I'm late to the party but @Southern by choice  did a great job explaining it all.  Whenever I have to pull kids I am always relieved to find legs, any legs. or a tail, or a nose. It is headless or "buttless" goats that I don't like.

I would give her maybe 30 minutes but if she isn't pushing it is up to you to get that other kid out. Or like SBC said, just go and get it; I've done it both ways.

Congratulations on the kid. Good job.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

No gloves. I couldn’t feel with them. Put iodine and sanitizer after washing them.  Do I need to get her antibotics tomorrow.


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## babsbag (Nov 14, 2018)

I usually just watch them, check their temp. But I think the gold standard is to start antibiotics after an assisted delivery; but then I don't usually have gold.    And I don't usually wear gloves either...too slippery.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

I personally would prefer to have them on hand just in case she starts a temp. What antibiotics would you guys recommend? At least pen.G maybe?


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Of course also consult a professional or other trusted source before administering any meds.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 14, 2018)

Generally it is closed and no need. Tears etc yes. Keep watch.
Some automatically give anti biotics after going in.
 I never have but I do wear gloves and use lots of lube. I have had to go in quite a few times. Our goats like to have large litters and get tangled. 
Do what you feel comfortable with. What do you have available?
The temp you are looking for either high temp (infection) or low temp (milk fever).

You guys crack me up. Learn to wear gloves! Placenta and birthing fluids contain way more than you want to deal with. 

BTW you will want to take some motrin- yes you. Because you are going to be sore as heck tomorrow! 

Congratulations! Good job. Pics hopefully soon!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

@Southern by choice what course of action would you go with in the event of a fever after this sort of thing? Antibiotics or watch the fever? Interested in case I ever run into a problem like this.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Great job! Some great advice was given! Congrats on the doeling (and any others to come) I haven't used antibiotics before, I don't really see the need. The one doe I did use it on, I used pen G. I do always have it on hand just in case anyway. I'm sure others can help more with what antibiotic to use if needed. Again, congrats! I'll be sure to check in tomorrow morning and see how everyone is doing. Good luck with the rest of the labor!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> @Southern by choice what course of action would you go with in the event of a fever after this sort of thing? Antibiotics or watch the fever? Interested in case I ever run into a problem like this.


Anything like this I generally put a call in to my vet. I always like to keep my vet  in the know... this way if I have an issue we are both prepared.
Depends really. Is their smell? How high is the temp? Can the goat get up? Pee? 
Thankfully we have never had an issue. 
The few times I have seen issues and infection it was from no lube or not enough and there was a tear or perforation of some sort.
Some vets want a flush and anti biotics etc... my vets don't generally recommend any of those things unless absolutely necessary.

As much as we can all do on our own I am still a big believer in communicating with my vet. I encourage others to do the same. I know many do not have reliable vets in their regions and that makes things difficult. Then you have to go by symptoms and do the best you can til you can get the advice necessary.

Earlier this year I had the hardest pull I have ever had. It was on my Nubian, it was her triplet. Last one. I really had to work at keeping calm, I was on the verge of panic. And I don't panic.
First time I can remember being scared that I wasn't going to be able to get the kid out. @Goat Whisperer  had to hold the doe, no easy task. We are a good team her and I.  
I got the kid out, she didn't make it, but I got her out and the doe was fine. She is retired now and gets to live her life out here.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

Thank you all! I had to go in for the second one. A beautiful buckling. He only had one foot and head. Could not get the other foot. Dotti pushes and I pulled down and wriggled and our he came. He is white with brown head. Doeling is brown with white strip on head. I don’t believe there are any more. Got them dried off and nursing.  Waiting for Dotti to expel placenta.

You all are amazing! I was very scared through the last of the pregnant and whole birthing process and you all got me through it. I am not afraid to go in now. I will update tomorrow with pics.  I am amazed that we started at 3:30pm CST now it’s midnight and it turned out to be a great happy ending. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN!!!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 15, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Thank you all! I had to go in for the second one. A beautiful buckling. He only had one foot and head. Could not get the other foot. Dotti pushes and I pulled down and wriggled and our he came. He is white with brown head. Doeling is brown with white strip on head. I don’t believe there are any more. Got them dried off and nursing.  Waiting for Dotti to expel placenta.
> 
> You all are amazing! I was very scared through the last of the pregnant and whole birthing process and you all got me through it. I am not afraid to go in now. I will update tomorrow with pics.  I am amazed that we started at 3:30pm CST now it’s midnight and it turned out to be a great happy ending. THANK YOU ALL AGAIN!!!


Please post pics when you get a chance.  So happy everything ended up good.


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## babsbag (Nov 15, 2018)

Nice to read a happy ending. But it sure does remind me that I am not looking forward to kidding season...over 50 does. UGH!!!.  I have to involve a vet if I need drugs as no more OTC antibiotics in CA. I usually don't give anything but back in the day when I could buy them it would have been PenG if I felt I needed one. But I really hate that drug, always afraid of getting it in a vein.


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## WILLIFORD (Nov 15, 2018)

Very impressive on both your part and the individuals who provided you with the support and knowledge to get through this successfully. Nicely done everyone. I have not had to deal with kidding yet, but I believe that day is coming soon, I think my NG maybe pregnant. I feel a lot better knowing there are people like all of you out there, when that time comes. Great job.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 15, 2018)

So glad it turned out well!  My DH was in the midst of a hypoglycemic episode last night- sorry I couldn't stay with you.  But you had SBC and you couldn't ask for a better mentor in a case like that!  Lesson here- don't wait if you even suspect a problem!  As others have said- watch her temp but I don't  give antibiotics unless there's a reason.  The doe will likely be  swollen in her lady parts....maybe even torn.  A warm, gentle cleansing might help her feel better.

Congrats on a great outcome!


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 15, 2018)

WILLIFORD said:


> Very impressive on both your part and the individuals who provided you with the support and knowledge to get through this successfully. Nicely done everyone. I have not had to deal with kidding yet, but I believe that day is coming soon, I think my NG maybe pregnant. I feel a lot better knowing there are people like all of you out there, when that time comes. Great job.


Hello Williford hope things are going well for you, good luck with you kidding.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 15, 2018)

Waiting on pictures, so happy you had a good ending and two kids !   Congratulations  on a job well done !


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## Latestarter (Nov 15, 2018)

True to my name... just got here.  Congrats on handling the situation like a pro! Congrats on two healthy kids! Looking fwd to pics when you're able!


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## WILLIFORD (Nov 15, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Hello Williford hope things are going well for you, good luck with you kidding.


Thank you. I’m not positive she is pregnant. But the lady I purchased them from held them for me for 3 weeks while I got things ready. During that time one of her bucks got in with the does in the middle of the night. She has the date and which buck it was. If she is going to kid it will be about Christmas give or take a few days. We’ll see. I’ve not noticed any signs of heat since I’ve had her, so I suspect she is, but I am no expert


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 15, 2018)

WILLIFORD said:


> Thank you. I’m not positive she is pregnant. But the lady I purchased them from held them for me for 3 weeks while I got things ready. During that time one of her bucks got in with the does in the middle of the night. She has the date and which buck it was. If she is going to kid it will be about Christmas give or take a few days. We’ll see. I’ve not noticed any signs of heat since I’ve had her, so I suspect she is, but I am no expert


They will surprise you ! I purchased  two goats that nobody  knew they were pregnat, and i didn't  realise it till the fourth month.....hope he was a handsome buck. @WILLIFORD


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)

Dotti kidded two beautiful goat kids. Brown one is doeling and white one is buckling. After 6 hours of long labor I went in and untangled them. The whole process started at 3:30pm yesterday (after 15 minutes posting the prekidding string - Forum: FF Goat Asking Questions), I went in about 10pm for the first one and I got the last one out at midnight. I will not lie to you, this was the hardest thing I have ever done. At some point I thought I was killing the baby and some  times I thought I was killing Dotti, but I did not let go. Slippery little boogers too. It took forever and I was crying while my son held Dotti still. The first time, there was 3 legs and a head. Had to find out which leg went to the head and pulled, seemed like it took forever. The second one had one leg and head and could not get the other leg out. So I grabbed and pulled and wriggled while she pushed and finally the other leg released the baby through the canal. I am guessing besides being tangled they are really big. It turned out to be a good happy ending. Just me and Dotti are traumatized. She is an excellent mother and I am very proud of her. Thank you all, words cannot express my gratitude and I am blessed to have you all help me through this. I cannot believe, I just saved three lives, its a miracle!


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)




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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 15, 2018)

Omg, they are so  cute and big, i can understand why you  had to  pull and help...congratulations


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## Sheepshape (Nov 15, 2018)

Huge congratulations....just read this thread and was praying for a happy ending......and there's two happy endings.
You probably need Nutridrench yourself!

Sometimes it's necessary to push the lamb back into the womb to get a second leg pulled down.

Great stuff.


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## luvmypets (Nov 15, 2018)

So glad you asked for help when you knew something was wrong. I have seen many cases of people waiting a day or more when their animal is in hard labor and then of course the babies dont make it and the dam is in terrible condition. I saw one instance where there was a cow in labor for three days and she died while the vet was trying to assist her. 

Glad for a happy ending, I just love the doeling


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## Southern by choice (Nov 15, 2018)

Beautiful kids! Your dam is very pretty too! Congrats!


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Beautiful kids! Your dam is very pretty too! Congrats!



Thank you!


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 15, 2018)

I am so happy for you, but was just as scared as you were, i came here same as you did...in trouble, i lost the doe and her doeling, she was unknowingly  bred when i bought her and another  one,  total nightmare...they were eight months old and  never should of been bred. (Nigerian dwarfs) , i started a journal  on here and that has been alot of fun...you may want to do that as you can look back later and see what you have been thru...have fun, keep us posted on those beautifl kids and get some rest, lol


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## Louannx (Nov 16, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> I am so happy for you, but was just as scared as you were, i came here same as you did...in trouble, i lost the doe and her doeling, she was unknowingly  bred when i bought her and another  one,  total nightmare...they were eight months old and  never should of been bred. (Nigerian dwarfs) , i started a journal  on here and that has been alot of fun...you may want to do that as you can look back later and see what you have been thru...have fun, keep us posted on those beautifl kids and get some rest, lol



I am so sorry to hear that. We never really know what the outcome can be.

Dotti and the kids are doing great. The white buckling is named Brawn and the brown doeling is Coco cause she looks like a cup of hot chocolate with marshmallow on top. Lol. I am so proud ofDotti and how attentive she is with both the kids. She is a keeper and very excellent mom.  I have been keeping a close eye on her in case there is any after birth complications.

Being a new goat owner and first birth, I sure did not want to go in. I was so worried she would get an infection or uterine tear. So far we look to be clear. Dotti looks normal and is acting normal and eating so I am so relived. When you do not know what you are doing you don’t know what that choice can lead to.

Again I am so thankful for everyone on here being so attentive to me and Dotti and following me through the process of one forum and jumping on another one. I look at my beautiful goats and words can never express how thankful I am for all of y’all.


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## Latestarter (Nov 16, 2018)

Just noticed you're in TX... There are number of goat folks here stretching from me up near Texarcana, down to SW of DFW where @animalmom is located and continuing down toward Houston and @frustratedearthmother  There's a group of BYH'ers up near me that get together every so often (Myself, @Baymule & @Devonviolet ) and visit each other every so often. If you're within range, you'd be most welcome to join in!


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## Baymule (Nov 16, 2018)

Nothing like when BYH'ers get together! Don't have a weak stomach, as we eat lunch, we discuss everything! LOL LOL


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## Louannx (Nov 16, 2018)

Sounds great. Let’s stay in touch!


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## Carla D (Nov 19, 2018)

@Louannx, I’m so very happy for your outcome. I’m so glad it turn out another way being your first time kidding. Great job! All the way around to you, your goats, and BYHs who were able to get you this amazing first time experience.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 21, 2018)

I just found this new thread from Louannx.  I kept looking for a posting under her previous thread "FF . . . ." so thought everything must have gone ok.  So happy that you were able to get hold of people who knew what to do and could talk you through it.  I am so glad that you made the decision to go in and pull the kids.  Too many people are afraid to do it and end up losing kids, and sometimes mom too.  It is icky the first time, but after you know what you are doing, it is not bad. 



Southern by choice said:


> You guys crack me up. Learn to wear gloves! Placenta and birthing fluids contain way more than you want to deal with.



I never use gloves either, I can't feel as well with gloves on.   Yeah, that stuff is really nasty.  I have had so many water bags burst and drench me as I knelt at the rear end of a doe trying to find a leg, _any leg_, that I could identify in order to pull a kid!   Talk about projectile placental fluid!  I swear sometimes the doe actually aimed it at me! 

Those kids are adorable!  Great that you got a doeling too.

Congratulations on being brave and doing what needed to be done.  You saved your doe and her darling babies.  Hopefully she will not need kids pulled next time.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 21, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Talk about projectile placental fluid!


 Now the sheep equivalent of this is why I always wear my rubber trousers when I'm 'out there'.....they are the singularly least attractive garment that has ever been formulated by man....the 'small' would fit around our oil tank and slowly descend over the course of the time that I'm out there....I think I'll get some suspenders to hold them up. The 'large' looks exactly the same size as the small!

The fluid is bad enough when it's warm, but when it's cold and  all over the floor so you're slipping and sliding....Nasty.

It's always best to examine the pregnant mum......just as long as your hands are spotless or (sterile) gloved and lots of lubricant is used.  'If you don't put your hand in it, you're going to put your foot in it' is said around here.


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## Carla D (Nov 22, 2018)

Sheepshape said:


> Now the sheep equivalent of this is why I always wear my rubber trousers when I'm 'out there'.....they are the singularly least attractive garment that has ever been formulated by man....the 'small' would fit around our oil tank and slowly descend over the course of the time that I'm out there....I think I'll get some suspenders to hold them up. The 'large' looks exactly the same size as the small!
> 
> The fluid is bad enough when it's warm, but when it's cold and  all over the floor so you're slipping and sliding....Nasty.
> 
> It's always best to examine the pregnant mum......just as long as your hands are spotless or (sterile) gloved and lots of lubricant is used.  'If you don't put your hand in it, you're going to put your foot in it' is said around here.


They do make women’s rubber coveralls and suits. There are a whole bunch on amazon.com if you are interested. I bet they would be much more comfortable and functional if they fit you, not an oil tank. Here’s a possible set if you are interested.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 22, 2018)

Carla D said:


> I bet they would be much more comfortable and functional if they fit yo


 Thank you.....have they been tested with buckets of amniotic fluid? Only joking....I'll take a look....they need to be extra heavy duty round here Tee hee.


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## Carla D (Nov 22, 2018)

Sheepshape said:


> Thank you.....have they been tested with buckets of amniotic fluid? Only joking....I'll take a look....they need to be extra heavy duty round here Tee hee.


You could search for chest waders, women’s rubber waders, and try looking at places that sell fishing supplies. That may be the best place to find them in women’s sizes. Just a thought. I imagine kidding could be a many hours type of thing and comfort or well fitting would at least make moving around in easier and them weighing less would too. Just thought I throw that out there for you and anyone else who frequently does kidding.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 24, 2018)

I wish I had known there were such things when we had a couple dozen does kidding, along with a sheep flock, every year.  Especially with the Nubians who seem to delight in producing 4 at a time!  It seems that the more there are in there, the more tangled they get.  The worst one I ever had was a doe with 4 kids in her and the first presented as just the backbone!!!  Nothing to get hold of, no room to work, I was pushing the little guy back in to reposition him, and mama was trying her hardest to push him out!  Finally managed it, and all 4 were fine.  She hadn't shown any sign of a problem except that her labor was taking a while and she had kidded easily before.  That is why I like using a marking harness to pinpoint the kidding dates.  And why I don't wait to act if I suspect trouble.  And why I am practically housebound (barnbound?) during lambing/kidding season!  LOL

3 ewes are due on Tuesday and Wednesday.     One has definitely uddered up.  One hasn't shown any sign of her udder filling out, the 3rd is a FF with a baby udder.  Those 2 both showed that they marked again so if they don't lamb, I have to wait another 3 weeks for the next due dates.  I am hoping that they lamb, and the remarking was the ram playing around.    Probably going to be lambing on Christmas Eve.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 25, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Probably going to be lambing on Christmas Eve.


 Well....I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing....Xmas Day lambs...a joy, being up until the wee small hours of Xmas Day in (if your climate is anything like ours)Wind, cold and rain/snow....something of a pain. So ' a mixed blessing' about covers it. 
Sheep vary such a lot with regards to the udder....some look like a cow for a month before lambing and others only udder up as they are giving birth.
Best of luck all round.


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## Mini Horses (Nov 25, 2018)

Congrats on the save & lovely twins!  Yep, those Boer kids can be big ones.   That doe is carry a load with a couple 10-12 lb ones in there.

Enjoy the babes.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 26, 2018)

Thanks, I only hve the 3 left to go.  I think if Dorset Yellow does not lamb on Wednesday or Thursday I ill turn her back out with the rams until December 21.  Her next due date would be the 23rd.  Same with Lil Sweetie who showed an udder before Ewegenie, but seems to have stopped activity in that area.  Her second lambing date is also the 23rd.  I think if they do not lamb this week, I will turn them back into the field with the rams until the 21st of December.  I don't like confining my ewes in small jugs for long periods before they lamb.  I think it makes for problems. My jugs are only 5' x 10'.  The exercise before they lamb is good for them.   I ill pst ll other activity on my other site - Ridgetop.

Louannx:  How are your darlings coming along?  I bet they  jumping around and just adorable by now.  Let us see more pix as they grow!


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## Louannx (Nov 26, 2018)

Hi all,

Well Ridgetop: I love taking their pictures so here is where we are. They will be two weeks on Wednesday in two days. Dotti did not get a full bag till about 8 days after labor. She went from a pint or two to at least maybe half a gallon of milk or so. I was a little concerned with Brawn, my white buckling as he is on the skinny side. But he is just as active as Coco, if not MORE. LOL. He is always nursing and I hold Dotti's udder 3 times a day for 20 minutes to make sure he is getting what he needs. I realized, Coco was knocking him off.  She wants whichever teat he is  on. Other than that, things are going really good. I was really thankful that Dotti was such a good mama and some of the stuff she does just cracks me up. Goats are such a joy! And I believe they think I am part of their herd. The kids are always all over me waiting for their hugs and kisses!!


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## Louannx (Nov 26, 2018)




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## Ridgetop (Nov 26, 2018)

Smart of you to realize that Coco is the dominant kid.  Usually it is the larger bucklings that dominate their smaller sisters.   The more the kids nurse, the more milk Dotti will produce for them.  Some first time owners get worried and start supplementing with bottles and, while it makes the kids more attached to the owners, the doe's milk does not come in properly.  Then the owners explain it by saying "she never had enough milk so we had to supplement".  Unless the kids are getting too weak to nurse, you are wiser to let her supply catch up to them.  Good going! 

You definitely want your goats to believe they are part of your herd.  Not just part of the herd, but the Herd Queen.  There is always a herd queen and a dominant male in every flock or herd species.  The herd queen is one of the older does, usually the matriarch, and is dominant.  She is the one that determines where the herd goes, what forage is safe for them to eat, etc.  That is the position of supreme authority.  The dominant male is the only male allowed to breed with the females in his herd.  He is also the protector of the herd, as well as doing battle against interloping males.  He has a small coterie of junior males that are allowed to remain with the herd as long as they are subservient to him.  The dominant male can be driven out by a younger male, but the herd queen retains her position until she dies or is unable to lead the herd.

Unlike sheep, goats will defend their herd if possible.  Sheep will run before the predator which is how dog packs inflict such horrific injuries on an entire flock.  I speaking from experience.  Years ago I saw my goat herd form a defensive circle against a suspected predator.  Kids are in the center, and the herd radiates out in order of younger to older females, surrounded by yearling to 2 year old bucks and the dominant male facing the main threat.  All the older goats face outward against the threat.  If the predator approaches too close, the dominant male will attack and drive it off.  Behind the dominant male are lines of defense consisting of the younger bucks, the older females, the younger females down to defenceless kids.  If the male is killed by the predator, usually the threat evaporates and the herd backs off and moves away while dinner is in progress.  I had read about this behavior, and to see it in person was amazing.  The "predator" was a young LGD I had just introduced and they did not know him yet.

Back to your position in the herd  hierarchy - _you_ are the herd queen and must be dominant.  Hail! Queen Louannx!


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## Louannx (Nov 26, 2018)

Good information! I almost started supplementing them but I turned to Google. I watch Brawn’s behavior and energy level. He is not gaining like Coco but he seems content and is all over the place jumping and climbing. I hold her udder 3 times a day to make sure he is getting his feel. Then I check his tummy to make sure. Sometimes  it’s funny because he will fall asleep nursing and I got to wake him up. Warm milk! I keep Coco on one and Brawn on the other and the whole time, she wants his. But I keep her on hers. Maybe this is our bonding because they are so happy to see me and jump right in my lap.

Interesting on the herds survival behavior. That would be pretty neat to see. But I hope I never have too. 

Sounds like you have your hands full with all your ewes (and goats)? Congratulations! I can not imagine at this time having more than one due at a time but I’m still very green. I am reading up on how to breed the goats and so fourth. I am thinking of breeding one month apart for Dotti and Joli in Starting in February. So the kids would be close on age but far enough apart. Still a work in progress and still reading. Wish me luck!


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## goats&moregoats (Nov 27, 2018)

Congrats! and a wonderful job to you and BYH members


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## Latestarter (Nov 27, 2018)

Hey there @goats&moregoats ! Good to see you/hear from you! How are you doing? Maybe a short update to your journal for us old timers?


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## Ridgetop (Nov 29, 2018)

You are doing a great job with your goats!

Everyone breeds for different times for different reasons.  I like breeding everyone at the same time to get it all out of the way at once.  I don't have a problem with bad winter weather since we are in Southern California, and I have a good barn. On the other hand, if you like spending the individual time with them, breeding for 3 weeks apart would be fine.  Make sure you know the breeding cycles for your breeds.  Boers will mostly breed year round with less problems with heat affecting the buck's fertility.  Dairy breeds have a definite seasonal breeding period when the bucks come into rut and the does start to cycle.  Swiss breeds have a tighter seasonal cycle of fewer months in the fall, while Nubians can start cycling in August and go on through February.  Many does in a herd will adjust their breeding cycles to come into season around the same time.  The time between estrus cycles is 3 weeks give or take a day or two.  If you plan to breed for about a month apart, watch to see if  both girls come in to season around the same time.  Then you can plan the second breeding for 3 weeks later.

Just know that late February through spring is not a normal breeding time for goats.  That is their normal kidding time.  Goats have a gestation of 155 days.  Although the Boers will often breed out of season, it depends on the bloodlines.  Some are active out of season breeders, others are not.  You might want to breed in early or late fall next year for kids, depending on how early in the year you want them born.  Once you are breeding each year and are selling your kids, you will want to plan their arrival to coincide with the best pasture.  It is cheaper to raise them on pasture, and the mamas milk better.  Or you may want to plan kidding so the kids have gained a  certain amount of weight for sale t certain times of the year. 

If you are planning on keeping any bucklings, make sure you castrate or band them by about 1 or 2 months old.  Wethers will grow just as well with less possibility of accidental breeding.  You will want to make a plan for selling your buck kids too.  Check around for livestock auctions I the area.  I used to sell all my bucklings at 2 months of age without castrating them, and they sold well, especially around Easter.  Unless they are on pasture, there will be no profit in growing them larger, and a lot of expense.


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes, what @frustratedearthmother  said.
> Relax... use LOTS and LOTS of lube... like pour it in there!
> When you go in feel - breathe, relax, and feel.  I never worry about head first. If you have a butt push in and find legs pull legs out and the rest will come. You want the kid belly down though - not belly up.
> Gravity- use it! Lift the rear of the goat up in the air, like chest to the ground... this helps the kid to go back in enough for you to feel and grab legs if nec.
> If you you feel the head but legs are back, that's ok too. grab in the mouth if need be and pull. If you hav a birthing snare now id the time to use it.


When you are going into the vaginal canal, Is this with one hold hand or just a few fingers?


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## rosti (Apr 17, 2019)

Whole hand. Whole arm, if the kids are deep enough or need that much repositioning.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 17, 2019)

Georgia Girl said:


> When you are going into the vaginal canal, Is this with one hold hand or just a few fingers?



You first go with up to the ends of your fingers  (where your palm is just "there") and feel what you can. If you feel a kid you can generally tell if you have feet or nose, if round and not sure if head is bent or down or if it is a butt or possibly a side then you need to go in more.
I just assisted in 3 does that each had trips and each one I had to go in with.
When a kid is far back and not far down into the canal you really don't want to just go grabbing it out. This IMO is a mistake that many make that ends up in tearing, torn uterus, and trauma. Now, if the goat has become exhausted and is no longer pushing that is another story.

There are many ways of assisting. Did you have an issue or was this a general question?


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> You first go with up to the ends of your fingers  (where your palm is just "there") and feel what you can. If you feel a kid you can generally tell if you have feet or nose, if round and not sure if head is bent or down or if it is a butt or possibly a side then you need to go in more.
> I just assisted in 3 does that each had trips and each one I had to go in with.
> When a kid is far back and not far down into the canal you really don't want to just go grabbing it out. This IMO is a mistake that many make that ends up in tearing, torn uterus, and trauma. Now, if the goat has become exhausted and is no longer pushing that is another story.
> 
> There are many ways of assisting. Did you have an issue or was this a general question?


I have 2 that are due soon and this will be my first time and I am really worried that I might not get things right.   I had the vet out about a month ago for a check and when I mentioned them coming if I needed help, she automatically mentioned doing a c-section without trying to reposition so this makes me more apprehensive as I don't want to just go to that option if the kids can be repositioned.  I use to rescue deer and I had one that would come up to her shelter and deliver and she never had any problems that I had to help with other than staying with her  Thanks for your response, I wish you would post more, boy how I wish you were close to me.  Thanks a Bunch.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 17, 2019)

@Georgia Girl  maybe I will start a thread, others that have also had to reposition could chime in.
There are some key things I think are really important. Tips and hints that also may help.
The tough part is I am limited on time and there are so many things I would love to share... just a time issue.
But I'll try.  
In the meantime look at what is considered "normal presentation". 
Good news is most goats do everything fine without an issue. 
What breed of goats do you have? Do you think they are having more than twins?


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 17, 2019)

Georgia Girl said:


> I have 2 that are due soon and this will be my first time and I am really worried that I might not get things right.   I had the vet out about a month ago for a check and when I mentioned them coming if I needed help, she automatically mentioned doing a c-section without trying to reposition so this makes me more apprehensive as I don't want to just go to that option if the kids can be repositioned.  I use to rescue deer and I had one that would come up to her shelter and deliver and she never had any problems that I had to help with other than staying with her  Thanks for your response, I wish you would post more, boy how I wish you were close to me.  Thanks a Bunch.



Do you have cement blocks that they can stand on?  I've noticed that our does will stand on them with their front feet to help get the kids into position.  Good luck with your kiddings!


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> @Georgia Girl  maybe I will start a thread, others that have also had to reposition could chime in.
> There are some key things I think are really important. Tips and hints that also may help.
> The tough part is I am limited on time and there are so many things I would love to share... just a time issue.
> But I'll try.
> ...


I have Saanens and I don't know if twins or more, one is pretty large, vet did ultasound on 3-7 but could not tell me how many. I intentionally bred them to a pretty mini=Nubian in hopes the kids would not be large.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 17, 2019)

Georgia Girl said:


> I have 2 that are due soon and this will be my first time and I am really worried that I might not get things right.   I had the vet out about a month ago for a check and when I mentioned them coming if I needed help, she automatically mentioned doing a c-section without trying to reposition so this makes me more apprehensive as I don't want to just go to that option if the kids can be repositioned.  I use to rescue deer and I had one that would come up to her shelter and deliver and she never had any problems that I had to help with other than staying with her  Thanks for your response, I wish you would post more, boy how I wish you were close to me.  Thanks a Bunch.



If your vet wants to do a C-section without even waiting to see if the goat can deliver, find another vet.  Repositioning kids is not hard (3 or 4 are more difficult, but doable).  You just to have to get inside, sort out the body parts and pull them out.  I played a game with my 4-H project kids where we put a bunch of stuffed animals in a pillow case so it was stuffed and the kids had to identify what they were feeling.  

When I go inside a doe or ewe to reposition and sort out babies, I always feel like that scene in Men in Black when the hero gets swallowed by the giant cockroach alien!  Just as slimy, but necessary.  Go slow, and ease in with lots of antiseptic soap or special birthing lube if you have it.  Make sure you feel any legs or body portions all the way up to the body so you know what they are and that they belong to the same baby. 

I always close my eyes so I can let my hands tell my mind what part I am feeling when I go inside.   Mu project kids used to call me to help if their animals had trouble.  (My neighbor even had me come pull her colt.)  One time I went to help pull kids from a doe that was in trouble.  One was stillborn and she still had a kid inside - I could feel the head and bones when I picked up her belly.  I told the family that the other kid might be dead too, but I would pull it to save the doe  I greased up with antiseptic soap, closed my eyes and went inside the doe.  She was terribly tight which was odd, it felt like the cervix had already closed up.  If the kid was dead for some time, maybe the doe's body was telling her everything was over, but I had felt a kid inside when I palpated so I kept trying to find it.  Nothing, but tightness.  As the familyheld their breaths in worry, I opened my eyes and realized I was inside the rectum!!!   *OOPS!!!      *  I quickly pulled my hand out, scrubbed off, resoaped and this time found, repositioned, and pulled a live kid from the correct opening.  It just shows that even the most experienced can make mistakes.  That is one of the jokes I love telling on myself!   

Southern:  If you want to do posting about repositioning and pulling kids and lambs, let me know and I will contribute.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 17, 2019)

Georgia Girl said:


> I have Saanens and I don't know if twins or more, one is pretty large, vet did ultasound on 3-7 but could not tell me how many. I intentionally bred them to a pretty mini=Nubian in hopes the kids would not be large.


That could backfire on you... that tends to produce more kids by using smaller bucks (genetic wise)

Have you been able to look at pics of normal presentations?


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## Ridgetop (Apr 17, 2019)

The best thing to do is to photocopy pix of kidding presentations, put them in plastic sleeves, and leave them in the kidding box with your supplies.  Even though you memorize the instructions, in the demands of kidding and trying to pull a stuck kid from a bawling doe, your mind goes blank!  During our first time pulling kids, I had my child hold the book up so I could look at the pix and decide which way the kid was coming.  I was terrified she would drop it in the slime and birthing goo!


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 17, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> If your vet wants to do a C-section without even waiting to see if the goat can deliver, find another vet.  Repositioning kids is not hard (3 or 4 are more difficult, but doable).  You just to have to get inside, sort out the body parts and pull them out.  I played a game with my 4-H project kids where we put a bunch of stuffed animals in a pillow case so it was stuffed and the kids had to identify what they were feeling.
> 
> When I go inside a doe or ewe to reposition and sort out babies, I always feel like that scene in Men in Black when the hero gets swallowed by the giant cockroach alien!  Just as slimy, but necessary.  Go slow, and ease in with lots of antiseptic soap or special birthing lube if you have it.  Make sure you feel any legs or body portions all the way up to the body so you know what they are and that they belong to the same baby.
> 
> ...


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 17, 2019)

I am just amazed at how knowledgeable you are and thanks so much, I would love to know more on repostioning but I don't know enough about that to start a thread, other than just ask a question.  thanks again


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> That could backfire on you... that tends to produce more kids by using smaller bucks (genetic wise)
> 
> Have you been able to look at pics of normal presentations?


Oh   OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO  MY, Now you have me really worried, I never thought of that.
I have looked at and copied pictures of normal and abnormal presentations that I have posted in my goat barn .


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## Ridgetop (Apr 18, 2019)

Triplets and quads sometimes results in a mixup and traffic jam at the exit!   You might have to reposition them, but that is easy as long as you can sort out the different limbs and know which kid they belong to.  If you just get the kid into position, the doe will deliver.  Repositioning multiples is not hard, over size singles are what scare me.  You will have to pull them.   However, Saanens are one if the largest breeds.  Nubians are well known for producing 3 and 4 kids, but Saanens usually just have twins.  Don't worry, but definitely breed to a Saanen buck next time.  There is no need to breed to a tiny buck thinking it will result in smaller kids.  The kids will grow to the size there is room for in the mother. 

Everything should work out fine.  A C-section is the last hope.  Don't wait to go inside the doe and check the kid's position if she is pushing.   If there is no kid, and she stops pushing, go in and check.  Often does that cannot give birth due to a stuck or malpresented kid will stop their labor.  I may be too quick to check and pull, but I hate waiting and having dead kids.


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## Mini Horses (Apr 18, 2019)

Georgia Girl said:


> I have Saanens and I don't know if twins or more, one is pretty large, vet did ultasound on 3-7 but could not tell me how many. I intentionally bred them to a pretty mini=Nubian in hopes the kids would not be large.



I have Saanen & Saanen X Nubian.   Most often mine have twins, occasional single.   One doe has decided trips would be fun, so 2 yrs in a row now.  But, see toes & nose...then they slide on out.  Fortunate that mine have delivered nicely.    As to multiples, the doe drops the eggs, so multiples are dependent on HER.  Having had (& still have 2) mini Nubians, I can attest that they did have trips more -- the Nigie genetics at work. In fact 2 of them never had other than trips.

Currently I keep fullblood Nubian and Saanen bucks.   Thinking to add a few Boer does & a buck to the farm.  Used to raise them.  When/if I do, the Boer will be used on the big does I keep, as they can handle the bulkier kids and feed them well!   The Boer will be for meats and the crossed kids bloom larger/faster, for sales.   It's just as @ Ridgetop, has said, for meat use & sales...go with a meat type.    I can have a Boer 6 month old weigh more than a yr old dairy kid.  Plus better meat texture for table.

Think dairy cow -- beef cow.  Same with goats.


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## Georgia Girl (Apr 21, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> That could backfire on you... that tends to produce more kids by using smaller bucks (genetic wise)
> 
> Have you been able to look at pics of normal presentations?


I wanted to let all the kind people on this site who give such good advice and info, My first doe started in labor at 6pm and 4-20-19 and she delivered 2 healthy females at 10am on 4-21-19.  My thanks to all of you.  I still have one more due 5-4-19. This is the first for both of them.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 21, 2019)

Georgia Girl said:


> I wanted to let all the kind people on this site who give such good advice and info, My first doe started in labor at 6pm and 4-20-19 and she delivered 2 healthy females at 10am on 4-21-19.  My thanks to all of you.  I still have one more due 5-4-19. This is the first for both of them.


That is awesome! I simply love birth! There is something magical, spiritual, and joyful about it... even when delivery doesn't go as planned.
Glad it was without complications. Thankfully the majority of births are free of issues, but I know I am always so thankful for it!

You will have to start a thread (if you haven't already) and share pics. We love baby pics!


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## Ridgetop (Apr 22, 2019)

Wonderful news!


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