# Testing for CAE/CL/Johnes-thoughts and opinions



## Southern by choice (Nov 1, 2012)

I  have noticed a huge drop in farms that test for CAE/CL/Johnes 

I was wondering about this because I have noticed (at least in our area) that whenever a farm had testing done it was always CAE/CL and sometimes (rarely) CAE/CL/Johnes.  Suddenly it's "we stopped doing testing," "we've never seen anything." "Yeah we use to but it just got too expensive, and my herd is very healthy." 

I know when blood is sent in, the expense is more in the collection and shipping, the testing is not that expensive and therefore for a few dollars more you can have a test added. Why go through all that and say CAE only, it only makes sense to do CAE/CL. I have noticed around here we use to see a lot of CAE/CL neg herds, hardly anyone tested for Johnes. Recently I've noticed CAE neg but the CL isn't there. CL incidence is up in our area so what I think is happening is more and more people are not testing so that they don't have to lie. Some do know their herd tested pos. and when you ask about the CL they just simply tell you "we don't test for that". Funny how last year they did. :/

 I know a lady that has never had CL in her herd, but in the past 2 years 1 goat ended up with CL, the lump showed up about 3weeks after she sold it. It was the one goat that had been shown! Then after her animals were all tested and neg she was showing another goat, 5 months later that goat had a lump. She is not going to show anymore goats! These btw were meat goats.

I am beginning to wonder about all of this because the larger herds(30+ goats) are not doing any testing anymore, and the small hobby goat owners that just kid their does so they can have milk aren't bothering to test either. It is becoming harder and harder to find a clean goat. Not everyone is honest, and will sell a "problem" goat just to get a few dollars out of it and not give a thought to the problems it will cause a new goat owner.

I would really like to hear why or why you don't test, what kinds of disease you test for, why not some test etc.   Thanks


----------



## Stacykins (Nov 1, 2012)

I am new to the goat game, but I have also noticed a lot of herds don't do testing. It is a little unsettling. I am personally in the process of collecting samples from my goats, to test for CAE, Johne's, and CL. I want to test all of them so I know I have a clean slate, but I only have four in total.


----------



## ragdollcatlady (Nov 1, 2012)

I just had Andy tested even though his mom and grandma were tested neg. It cost me $15 each for the CAE and CL and $15 shipping. By the time the whole vet bill was paid , even another 15 or 20 dollars is just too much right now , added to all that I paid for him, the vet and the gas money, he has cost me a small fortune...... 

I am hoping to have my whole herd tested for CAE and CL within the next year, but it adds up. I haven't even finished sending in all my registration papers cause bills got a little tight so the last $50 for registrations is on hold right now.

 I am testing for my own peace of mind. I think most producers in my area don't test for these because the animals are primarily for meat so don't live very long. I still want my breeders of meat animals to be clean and able to live with me, healthily, as producing pets, for hopefully many, many years. I also don't want to infect any of my dairy girls that I already love. It would be devastating to see them suffer when I can prevent it by testing.

Part of the reason I drove so far to get Andy was the fact that his owner was experienced in and testing  for diseases that concerned me.


----------



## chubbydog811 (Nov 1, 2012)

Not many places around here test for it unfortunately. I won't buy from an untested herd anymore. 
The breeder I go to runs a clean/closed herd, and had a clean herd for at least 5 years before she stopped testing. So far, all the animals I have bought from her have been clean. 

Starting this winter, I will be testing yearly for CAE and CL until I have my herd back to the size I want it.
I had CAE run rampant through my herd this spring - started with 15 goats, ended with 3. Only one of those 3 were from my original herd, the other 2 were purchased after the other goats were gone. 
As for price, I go with my vet - they charge a farm call (usually $40) and $20 per test. It is expensive, but my animals are worth more being able to advertise them as "clean" compared to the potential they might have something. I usually have other things done while they are here though, as well as tell our horse boarders when the vet is here to the farm call isn't as bad.
It does get expensive when you get a larger number of goats, but also think of how much more you can sell a good quality registered animal for when it is tested clean, or out of clean animals and raised on a preventative system. So far for me, it has balanced out.


----------



## Stacykins (Nov 1, 2012)

It is much less expensive if you are able to learn how to draw the blood yourself and send it strait to your lab of choice. You don't need to test locally. WADDL is the biggest name in animal disease testing . For an out of state person, a CAE test is 6.30, Johne's costs the same, and CL is 9.45. There is a 10 accession fee, but it is not per sample, just per batch you send in. 

Drawing blood takes a steady hand and some patience. I learned because I don't want to pay the $50 fee for the vet farm visit, that is just for her to come out not for any work, for something so simple and fast.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 1, 2012)

Stacykins said:
			
		

> It is much less expensive if you are able to learn how to draw the blood yourself and send it strait to your lab of choice. You don't need to test locally. WADDL is the biggest name in animal disease testing . For an out of state person, a CAE test is 6.30, Johne's costs the same, and CL is 9.45. There is a 10 accession fee, but it is not per sample, just per batch you send in.
> 
> Drawing blood takes a steady hand and some patience. I learned because I don't want to pay the $50 fee for the vet farm visit, that is just for her to come out not for any work, for something so simple and fast.


I agree. Learn to do it yourself. Takes much of the price away. Then send it to the lab. I too like WSU alot. They really seem to know what their doing. And yeah, it really doesn't cost alot, but I do see how it can add up esp. if you have alot of goats.


----------



## SkyWarrior (Nov 1, 2012)

I haven't tested yet.  This is something I need to do, but I've been putting it off because of other things I need to purchase that are more pressing.  I've never drawn blood, although I do vaccinate.  Basically, when I'm ready, I'll clear everyone and be done with it.

Most people here don't even vaccinate (I do), let alone test for something like CAE/CL/Johnnes.  Yes, this is something on my to do list, but since my critters are healthy, I'll probably hold off a little while.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Nov 1, 2012)

I had the vet come out & help me draw blood last February. I only tested for CAE through bio tracking. That said, most of my goats came from herds that tested for everything & gave me the results. A few were only tested for CAE (the ones I got from smaller herds)  They will all be tested again next spring. I am trying to decide if I want to test for anything besides CAE again. Does anyone know the pros & cons of testing for Johnes & CL? I have not seen any abcesses at all the only lumps I have ever seen/felt have been vaccine lumps from giving the CDT vaccine. Also all my goats are more on the portly side (something I've learned a lot of people don't like to see in Nigies) but at least I know they are not wasting away so no visible signs of possible Johnes here either. Aren't some states declared "free" of some of these diseases? I know our state is declared brucellosis free at least but I am not sure of anything else.


----------



## WhiteMountainsRanch (Nov 1, 2012)

*I purchased all 6 of my goats from herds that tested negative for CAE and that had NO cases of CL.

I then retested everyone for CAE and CL within the first 4 months I had them.

I will start testing for Johnes next year.

It's very important to me they are all clean, especially since I want to breed them and show them.

I draw blood myself and send the samples in a flat rate box. It's $6 for shipping (plus $1 for a frozen cooler thing) and each test is $6.75. I send them to UC Davis here in Cali.*


----------



## lilhill (Nov 2, 2012)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> I had the vet come out & help me draw blood last February. I only tested for CAE through bio tracking. That said, most of my goats came from herds that tested for everything & gave me the results. A few were only tested for CAE (the ones I got from smaller herds)  They will all be tested again next spring. I am trying to decide if I want to test for anything besides CAE again. Does anyone know the pros & cons of testing for Johnes & CL? I have not seen any abcesses at all the only lumps I have ever seen/felt have been vaccine lumps from giving the CDT vaccine. Also all my goats are more on the portly side (something I've learned a lot of people don't like to see in Nigies) but at least I know they are not wasting away so no visible signs of possible Johnes here either. Aren't some states declared "free" of some of these diseases? I know our state is declared brucellosis free at least but I am not sure of anything else.


I started out just CAE testing and then decided to throw in the Johnes and CL.  Guess I'm a bit lazy as I have my Vet come out and pull all the blood and send it off.  When we were talking about the additional tests, Dr. Cobb said that the CL test is unreliable and even though you test for it, that doesn't mean the goat does not have it.  Mostly meat/commercial goat folks are the ones who don't take CL seriously and it really doesn't bother them that their animals have CL.  And yes, most of them hide the fact that it's in their herds.   With that being said, the Vet also told me that it was a waste of money for me to test for CL as I have never had abscesses here.  He did reluctantly add the Johnes to the testing and when the lab asked him why I was testing for that, Dr. Cobb's reply was, "Peer pressure."  Bless his heart, he knows my herd so well as he's been taking care of them for 8 years, but it does make my customers more comfortable knowing the tests are at least run.  If they want CL thrown into the mix, I will certainly test for that at the purchaser's expense.  The most important thing goat owners can do is purchase from herds that have been tested, ask to see the test results so you know they are honest about having the tests run, and I even give them my Vet's phone number so they can call him and talk about my goats if they want.  

Alabama is a certified Brucellosis and TB free state, so additional testing for that is also at the purchaser's expense.


----------



## Southern by choice (Nov 2, 2012)

I've heard the CL test can produce false negatives but not false positives.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Nov 2, 2012)

I respectfully disagree about that fact that most meat goat farms lie about their CL status,  I have been to several Meat goat farms, from VA as far West as Indiana and they have all been honest about CL on their farms. Several of them vaccinate and the onse that don't talked about Cl also, but said they didn't care to vaccinate, but rather they isolate and treat the abscess that way.THese weren't small farms, These were farms selling stock anywhere from several hundred to several thousand dollars a head.


----------



## lilhill (Nov 2, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I respectfully disagree about that fact that most meat goat farms lie about their CL status,  I have been to several Meat goat farms, from VA as far West as Indiana and they have all been honest about CL on their farms. Several of them vaccinate and the onse that don't talked about Cl also, but said they didn't care to vaccinate, but rather they isolate and treat the abscess that way.THese weren't small farms, These were farms selling stock anywhere from several hundred to several thousand dollars a head.


I should clarify that the farms I was referring to are around here.


----------



## ksalvagno (Nov 2, 2012)

I think you see fewer farms testing only because of cost. With the economy the way it is, many people have to find ways to cut their expenses and not testing is one of them. Even if you pull the blood yourself, there is still cost involved and obviously some people just needed to drop that cost totally.

I like to call the vet out and have him pull the blood because I so rarely have the vet out anymore. I like to have them come out once or twice a year just to keep in contact and "on the list" so there is no problem when I have an emergency in the middle of the night.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Nov 2, 2012)

Here's my thoughts on the matter. I would prefer to buy from CL, CAE, and Johnes negative stock but it can be very hard to find that. Alot of people don't test for any of that, at least around here. And it's even harder to find meat goats that are tested for it. 

I got my Kikos from two different locations. Neither tests for anything of them and did assure me that they have never had a lump or anything like that. Of course that only tells for CL but they also didn't think they had CAE or Johnes. They don't test because they both have over 50 goats. That would get expensive quick. The one wouldn't do it just because he lets goats be goats and doesn't do anything to them. Testing for disease like that would be out of the question. lol The other also has alot of goats to where that would be expensive too. She has never had any kind of lump or disease other than mites one time. (She says at least) She did show some of her goats though. Some Boers, Kikos, and BoKis. All the goats that went to the show were exposed to CL at some point and they have all showed a lump since then. One of the being my goat, Arianna. None of her goats have ever gotten a lump and none of my other goats have ever had one either. 

I'm hoping that my other goats are clean and I do believe they are. I am hoping to test all my goats for all three diseases but I know Arianna will test + for CL. I'm just hoping she and the rest of them test negative for everything. I will not vaccinate against CL regardless of positive or negative test results. 

When it comes time to sell my kids I will tell the buyers whatever they want to know and I will not hide anything. I'll tell them about my one (hopefully just her) CL positive goat and that she has had a lump before. I will tell them how I treat it and how I clean and separate her from everyone until it is completely healed. That way it stays with her and does not spread to anyone else. And if Arianna does get a lump while she is nursing I will pull the kids and bottle feed them. I do not want them getting CL. Even though I would HATE to bottle feed them. That would really suck. lol

I am also thinking about testing all the kids for all three before they leave here that way the buyers know if they are clean or not. They will pay extra but I will feel good and I'm sure the buyers will like the fact that they are buying clean stock.

So I will not hide it and I will tell all buyers and I will do all I can to be sure that they do buy clean stock. I'm not going to lie about it. I would prefer to buy clean stock but that is not always an option.


----------



## ragdollcatlady (Nov 2, 2012)

> I like to call the vet out and have him pull the blood because I so rarely have the vet out anymore. I like to have them come out once or twice a year just to keep in contact and "on the list" so there is no problem when I have an emergency in the middle of the night.


There is so much truth to that! I had the vet out to my house to give everyone a checkup when I brought home a new girl last year just to get on their radar. I need them to see me as a valuable customer.

 I made sure to have mom checked out even though she had no health concern when the babies needed Bose so they know I am very concerned about  all my animals and do what needs to be done, even if it is just checking or trying to prevent.

 The more they know me and my animals, the more they are willing to go out of their way if I have a beyond business hours emergency or urgency. The specific animals that staff fall in love with always get the extra attention and I really want that for my animals. 

When I spent the extra hour waiting for Andy to come around from the anesthesia, I kindly declined taking him home before that because I wanted to be sure he would be awake enough to stay sternal the hour ride home, I got to talk about my goats and my farm animals and my plans for them. The vet was very interested. We talked alot about my goats. 

A relationship with your vet  is sooo important. I have heard that some of the best vets out here aren't taking new clients....I believe mine is one of them. Some people get mad, but there are a lot of animals to care for and the vets don't want to give everyone bad service so they have to limit their customers sometimes. Something to keep in mind.......


----------



## lilhill (Nov 2, 2012)

A good relationship with your Vet is priceless.  I was extremely fortunate to have found my Vet and hubby makes sure they get all the blueberries they want, even taking some saplings to their home and planting them.  He really knows how to brown nose.


----------

