# Coughing... Lung worms OR Virus?



## Sara1226

Hi everyone,  I am new to having goats, and this is my first posting.   I started with 2 Nigerian dwarf wethers from a reputable breeder, and added a 3rd one 2 weeks ago.  The third one was born the beginning of July.  After about the 2nd day I had him I noticed he had a dry cough.   I let it go a day to see if it would clear up and it didn't so I took him to a vet that sees farm animals.   The doctor concluded he had lung worms based on the fact that he was under weight (14 pounds), his coat was thin, and the breeder (different person from the other two I got) had never wormed him.  Doctor gave me an antibiotic pill, and told me to also worm with safeguard.   A fellow goat owner told me to use Ivermectin instead.   *Now forgive me... I'm terrible at math and measurements.   I can't figure it out to save my life.*  I wormed for 3 days with 1/2 inch squirt out of an ivermectin paste tube.   I tried to get the antibiotic into him but no matter what I did he spit it out.  Crushed it.. used apple sauce, molasses, etc.   still fought me tooth and nail!   As I noticed one of my previous two goats (they HAVE been wormed twice) started a dry cough.   So I checked back in with the vet and he said to give up on the antibiotic (I requested more) and try the safeguard.   

Should I try to find my own antibiotic online?  Is there a kind I can out in water to treat all three goats? 

Is that the right thing to do?  I'm at a loss and very frustrated,  can someone PLEASE tell me if this sounds like worms or a virus?? 

Any help is greatly appreciated!   I don't know what to do.  I'll try to attach some pictures of them.


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## Sara1226

Little guy.


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## Ponker

I just saw your post. I'm sorry to hear about the cough in your goats. Its so frustrating. I think you may have better luck with some advice by posting in the goat section. The goat people on here are so helpful and kind. Well, everyone is really. Don't be discouraged. The goat experts will chime in soon. I'm having a time with a little ewe lamb and did get some awesome advice. 

I'm not a goat expert but first, I would collect fresh poop from each goat and have a proper fecal analysis done. That will tell you what parasites you are facing. (Maybe not lungworm but the others) It will also give you a 'count'. Then you'll know what dewormer to use because not all dewormers are effective against all parasites. When you identify the parasite - find the dewormer that is effective against it - then wait ten days and collect another poop sample for analysis. Compare the new 'count' with the old 'count' and you'll be able to see if your dewormer did the trick or not. Sometimes, there are resistant strains of parasites in areas and until you know what works and what doesn't - you're flying blind. By doing the fecal samples, you're also able to target the specific animal that has the problem instead of treating everyone, needed or not. 

If your Vet suggested Safeguard it's probably because it works in your area for the parasite he diagnosed. Is there dust or mold or anything that could be irritating them?


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## babsbag

Goats can drive us crazy and   from CA. 

Now let's see if we can figure this out. It could be either lungworm or a virus. The lifecycle of lungworm needs a snail and wet pastures. I don't know where you live, but where I am in CA the chance of lungworm is one in a million. Did this little guy come from an area where lungworm is likely? Do you have wet pastures and standing water and snails where you live? 

I have never tried to give an antibiotic to a goat by mouth, I would fail miserably at that. If you want to treat with an antibiotic I would use an injectable, and Oxcytetracycline would be my first choice. You can get it at TSC as Duramycin or Biomycin. The dose is on the bottle. Duramycin LA 200 is given every other day for three doses. Give the injection Sub Q. If you don't know how to do an injection maybe someone can help you or look on YouTube. 

I'm just going to cut and paste this article on lungworm. According to this Ivermctin is not the drug of choice. 

_LUNGWORM_
_By Sue Reith._

_>>A goat owner writes: "I think that I am dealing with a batch of lungworms. I have some goats coughing -- actually most of them, and_
_several of the calves seem to be coughing. None are ill, no temps, no discharge other than some clear stuff. I did nor did I do any fecals,_
_as I recall, lungworms won't show up well there --- right?? _

_Your suspicion sounds quite logical, and, sadly, it is a waste of time to run a fecal sample to look for lungworm as it is all but impossible_
_to detect it that way... My rule of thumb is... Worm for it, and if the goat stops coughing, you guessed right! You've already figured out_
_that nothing else would be a logical culprit, after all..._

_No matter what it might claim on the labeling, Ivomec is NOT the choice to use for lungworm. The AASRP (American Ass'n of Small_
_Ruminant Practitioners) research has shown that the common lungworm responds best to Levamisole. Tramisol is a brand of_
_Levamisole, and there are generics out there as well. It comes in different forms, boluses, injectable, powder, etc. The best way to find_
_the best price is to “Google it in” and shop for a while!_

_The good news is that you treat your coughing goat with Levamisole at normal doses (NOT larger doses, as others may suggest) if it_
_turns out that lungworms are not the cause of the problem (which is not likely, based on your description of her condition), you not have_
_wasted your effort, as Levamisole is also a good general wormer, and your goat will have been the benefit of treating with it no matter_
_what!_

_Generally, after that very first dose of Levamisole has been administered, the owner will notice a reduction in coughing. But that doesn't_
_mean the problem has been solved, trust me! It only tells you that your 'guess' was right! But when a goat has lungworm to the degree_
_you describe that first, single dose of Levamisole (as with goat wormers in general) will ONLY wipe out the adult worms in the goat!_
_There will still be more lungworm eggs left behind in the lungs. And after a couple of weeks those left-behind eggs they'll be adults_
_themselves,, and will will start laying their own, additional eggs... That is why I always urge goat owners to worm 3X in a row, with ~ 10_
_days between wormings, so as to wipe out every leftover egg as it matures, and BEFORE it starts laying more eggs in the goat's lungs!_
_This is a critical part of successful treatment!The people I've worked with on Lungworm infections have found they actually had to treat for several weeks in a row to entirely get the job done... And that, of course, can only only be determined when, after you stop treatment, the cough doesnt start over again, that the problem was indeed Lungworm... But as I am a firm believer in 'overkill',I always recommend that the owner of a coughing goat go ahead and retreat as noted, simply because no one wants to have to start all over again if the job wasn't completed with the first round! And having done that, if the cough returns at a later time, at that point that the owner will have to look for a new problem and a new diagnosis, to deal with._

_However, the good news is, the Levamisole product is also an excellent general wormer, so that once you're finished, your goats should_
_be completely worm free! And they will remain that way, unless you bring in a new goat, one that's carrying its own load of worms, without isolating and worming it in advance, your goat environment will remain free of additional contamination endlessly from then on!_

_BTW: Letting lungworm go for very long without treatment, will eventually cause permanent lung damage, which will shorten the goat's life..._

The Merck Manual says this as far as drug choices and it seems that Ivermectin or Safeguard is not the drug for goats. 
_
The benzimidazoles (fenbendazole, oxfendazole, and albendazole) and macrocyclic lactones (ivermectin, doramectin, eprinomectin, and moxidectin) are frequently used in cattle and are effective against all stages of D viviparus. These drugs are also effective against lungworms in sheep, horses, and pigs. *Levamisole is used in cattle, sheep, and goats, but treatment may need to be repeated 2 wk later because it is less effective against larvae during the early stages.*_

It is best to always have a fecal done before worming as it is not good to worm unnecessarily, the worms are becoming resistant to wormers and different wormers treat different worms. If I use Ivermectin I use injectable Ivermectin given orally at a dose of 1cc/40 lbs.

If you have more questions don't hesitate to ask. Hope this helps.


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## Southern by choice

I do not think your goat has lungworm.

The timeline doesn't really align itself with a severe lungworm infection that would be affecting the goat at this age and stage.
It is possible but there are several factors to consider. 

Timeline- 


Sara1226 said:


> born the beginning of July.


The kid would have been nursing for much of the first 5-6 weeks, nibbling grass/hay etc  but not sole source of feed....  
That puts the kid into Aug range. 

Basically their are 2 types of lungworm- one of the lungworm types  requires a snail as an intermediary host. Was the farm having flooding issues. Are there lots of snails? 
Was the kid out on pasture?
The other type does not both have an intererting life cycle.




Sara1226 said:


> After about the 2nd day I had him I noticed he had a dry cough.


This could a symptom of another issue which I will share below.



Sara1226 said:


> The doctor concluded he had lung worms based on the fact that he was under weight (14 pounds), his coat was thin, and the breeder (different person from the other two I got) had never wormed him.



A Baermann's float could be run by your vet to confirm.* First stage can be seen under scope*. 4th stage would be found in the sieve on the float... the float sits for several hours.
Most don't bother with a Baermanns float but treat instead if it is suspected.
The weight of the kid , the coat issue can have many causes.
Most breeders do not worm baby kids as there is no need. 
Never deworm without reason, confirmed by a fecal.  I have 9 month old kids that had 2 eggs. No one would deworm for that. 

Although the symptoms are coughing and compromised respiratory the kid just seems so young to have that severe of an infection.
However possible and can cause unthriftiness. 

If severe enough it will take time 4months- 2 years to heal the lesions.

My first thought is possibly cocci.
When he was transported that can cause shipping fever it can also cause a parasitic bloom. I say this because a fecal sample should be done asap and checked for cocci eggs. Cocci is NOT treated by dewormers. It isn't a worm. Cocci is a big kid killer.

Cocci slowly destroys the goat's intestinal tract. Because the goat cann ot absorb nutrition there is poor weight gain, lacklustre coat, stunted growth, lowers the immune system, anemia...

Many think that a cocci infection isn't present unless there is diarrhea- this is NOT true. It often does cause that but may also cause constipation, dehydration etc. 
Kids are most susceptible to cocci from 1 month -4 months of age... a few cocci eggs isn't an issue... it becomes an issue when there are many then it becomes cocci the disease or infection.
Cocci must be treated with different products. 

Generally once a goat is weaned their risk of having a cocci bloom skyrockets, add to that a move to a new home and that bloom sets the kid up for risk of severe infection and if not discovered soon enough the kid may not recover.

So I know you are asking what about the cough?
Many kids that have cocci infection and have immune compromised systems and are much more susceptible to secondary infections like pneumonia. The respiratory is affected.


Other causes that could cause cough issues are birthing complications, many kids will outgrow that. As far as weight. How many kids were in the litter? How much did the kid weigh at birth?
There is a big difference between a single, twin, or a quint. Our quads and quints may be only 1lb 9oz at birth vs a twin at 4-6 pounds. At 3-4 months they will be very different in size.

Did the kid have a fever?
As far as the antibiotic- um  I have NEVER heard of a vet giving an anti-biotic pill to a goat. EVER. 
Injectables are given to goats because their metabolism is very fast. Pills are not going to stay in the system long enough to be effective.


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## babsbag

I wondered about the lifecycle of lungworm and him being so young.

@Southern by choice  When you can dig up the info on that lungworm that doesn't require snails as a host please post it. I have searched and searched and have found nothing and that would be good to know for my area where it is so dry.


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## Southern by choice

@babsbag 

No snail required-
http://www.goatbiology.com/animations/dictyo.html

Snail required-
http://www.goatbiology.com/animations/muellerius.html


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## babsbag

Thanks. So I looked this up...Merck Manual:  

_Adult females in the bronchi lay larvated eggs that hatch either in the bronchi (D viviparus, D filaria) or in host feces (D arnfieldi) after being coughed up and swallowed. The infective third-stage larvae can develop on pasture within 5–7 days in warm, moist conditions, but typically in summer in temperate northern climates will require 2–3 wk. Once larvae are infective, transmission depends on their dispersal away from the fecal pats. Dispersal mechanisms are, primarily, mechanical and include rain or, in the case of D viviparus_ and possibly _D arnfieldi_, by the sporangia of the fungus _Pilobolus_. _ A proportion of infective larvae survive on pasture throughout the winter until the following year but, in very cold conditions, most become nonviable.
_
Not likely that I will have these in my part of CA.


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## Latestarter

Greetings and welcome to BYH  Sorry you're having issues with your wether(s). We have a lot of great goat folks here, some of which have already responded to you   Hope you can get to the root of the issue and get it cleared up! Meanwhile, there's a wealth of info in the various threads... Browse around and make yourself at home! If you have questions, just post away. Most times somebody will jump right in in short order. Glad to have you here with us!


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## babsbag

I know we posted a lot of information so I am going to narrow down what I would do if these were my goats.  

1. get a fecal done, check for worms and cocci and treat if needed.
2. start them on an injectable antibiotic
3. make sure they have access to a good goat loose mineral, the poor coat could be from a mineral deficiency, as could the small size. Selenium in particular can cause kids to be stunted.


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## Sara1226

Thank you,  I guess I should have posted this in the goat section,  but I'm still getting used to the layout of this site.   It's quite different than the backyardchicken site.   

Anyway,  I appreciate all the advice and suggestions.   I stopped to fleet farm and picked up the correct wormer,  and an antibiotic.   I will finish treating for worms, as this is my 2nd day into treatment, and if no luck I will try an antibiotic.   I sure hope something works and things don't go down hill even more.   Thanks again.


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## Southern by choice

Sara1226 said:


> Thank you,  I guess I should have posted this in the goat section,  but I'm still getting used to the layout of this site.   It's quite different than the backyardchicken site.
> 
> Anyway,  I appreciate all the advice and suggestions.   I stopped to fleet farm and picked up the correct wormer,  and an antibiotic.   I will finish treating for worms, as this is my 2nd day into treatment, and if no luck I will try an antibiotic.   I sure hope something works and things don't go down hill even more.   Thanks again.



PLEASE have fecal checked for cocci. 
What dewormer did you get?


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## Sara1226

The wether that was coughing first (and the most often) was and is on a kid pellet with Monensin for cocci.   So maybe cocci issues could be ruled out?   I got the wormer that starts with an "L" as suggested above.   My appologies, I don't have it right in front of me.  Levamisole..?   Don't know how much to give?  It's a paste.  Also picked up duramycin if worming fails.


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## babsbag

I have a hard time with dosage on paste wormers but you want to make sure and not give them too much. The dosage on the package is probably for horses. *Do not overdose this drug.*

If you can find Prohibit, it is Levamisole in a powder form for making a drench. A little easier to get the dosage figured out.


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## Southern by choice

Ivermectin treats lungworm.
I think it is far safer than prohibit/levamisole

We had lungworm years ago and used ivermectin (injecatable cattle) and it worked just fine.

Safegaurd also works but the protocol is longer with a higher dosage.

I agree with @babsbag  pastes are very difficult to get accurate dosing with.


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## babsbag

The Merck manual says no to Ivermectin for goats and lungworm.    I have never had to treat for it so only know what I read.


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## babsbag

The Merck Manual says this as far as drug choices and it seems that Ivermectin or Safeguard is not the drug for goats. 

_The benzimidazoles (fenbendazole, oxfendazole, and albendazole) and macrocyclic lactones (ivermectin, doramectin, eprinomectin, and moxidectin) are frequently used in cattle and are effective against all stages of D viviparus. These drugs are also effective against lungworms in sheep, horses, and pigs. *Levamisole is used in cattle, sheep, and goats, but treatment may need to be repeated 2 wk later because it is less effective against larvae during the early stages.*_


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## Southern by choice

I don't use the Merck manual. I rely more on Goat research sites.

We did not give as injectable. It was given orally. 



_*Muellerius capillaris*_
Chemical control is difficult. Some usual anthelmintics such as broad spectrum benzimidazoles(albendazole, febantel, fenbendazole, oxfendazole, etc.) or levamisole *are not or only partially effective against these worms*. Macrocyclic lactones (e.g. abamectin, doramectin, eprinomectin,* ivermectin, moxidectin) seem to be effective against adult worms at the usual therapeutic dose, but not or only partially effective against immature larvae.*


_*Dictyocaulus viviparous*_
Excepting slow-release boluses, most wormers containing benzimidazoles (e.g. albendazole, febantel,fenbendazole, oxfendazole, etc.), levamisole, tetrahydropyrimidines (e.g. morantel, pyrantel) and other classic anthelmintics kill the worms shortly after treatment and are quickly metabolized and/or excreted within a few hours or days. This means that they have a *short residual effect*,* or no residual effect at all.* As a consequence treated animals are cured from worms but do not remain protected against new infections. To ensure that they remain worm-free the animals have to be dewormed periodically, depending on the local epidemiological, ecological and climatic conditions.* An exception to this are macrocyclic lactones (e.g. abamectin, doramectin, eprinomectin,ivermectin, moxidectin), that offer several weeks protection against re-infestation, depending on the delivery formand the specific parasite. *

Fenbendazole (safeguard) does work on lungworm in dogs and cats.


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## NH homesteader

And this is why goats are so confusing!


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## Southern by choice

NH homesteader said:


> And this is why goats are so confusing!



Amen to that!

I find it quite fascinating though! I really like the study of parasites so I read as much as I can.


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> Amen to that!
> 
> I find it quite fascinating though! I really like the study of parasites so I read as much as I can.


@Southern by choice, what are some helpful goat parasite reads you recommend? 

I find it very fascinating, too, although I do wish it were more simple...


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## babsbag

@Southern by choice now I KNOW you are a geek.


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## Sara1226

I do have the powder form.  It came in a packet I got at fleet farm.  The levamisole (sp?) that is.  

Anyone know the dosing on that?  

There is so much info it's confusing.  All I know for sure is I want my little guys to stop coughing.   Tried to clean the shed out yesterday and this guy kept jumping in my cart!!


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## Latestarter

They are such helpful creatures aye?


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## Southern by choice

@Sara1226  What did your vet give you? Did you finish the protocol?

I ask because you have consulted with your vet, I would give a call back and let him/her know the status and go from there.
Also always write down or have vet write down what is being given and what is being sent home. Keep this in your records as well.

Switching drugs around and giving more dewormer etc can actually cause MORE harm to your goat. 
Not all dewormers can be given this close together or you could seriously damage the rumin and even cause death. This is a goat kid with somewhat already suppressed immunity.

Little guy is really adorable. 



Latestarter said:


> They are such helpful creatures aye?


 



babsbag said:


> @Southern by choice now I KNOW you are a geek.


You know what I'd be doing if I could start a whole new career. Parasitology and Pathology.  Yes. I. am. a. geek.


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## frustratedearthmother

Southern by choice said:


> Yes. I. am. a. geek.



There is a special place in the world for geeks, lol!


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## Sara1226

If I'm not saposed to give different wormers close together than what do I do?  Let him cough for awhile?  I don't mean that in a rude sarcastic way.  I'm seriously asking.   The vet hasn't been much help after my first visit.  Hence me seeking advice on here.


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## babsbag

Finish the Ivermectin if that is what you are giving him, I think you said you had one more day ??? @Southern by choice says that they successfully treated lung worm with ivermectin and she is one that I trust. 
Do you live in an area where it even could be lung worm?  Was the kid living on a wet pasture where there is standing water? Are you in an area where lung worm are prevalent? 

The vet wanted him to take an antibiotic...did he say why?

Did you have a fecal done on him when you took him in? If not, I would collect some goat berries and get one done but since he is on medicated  feed probably not cocci but it never hurts and it should be relatively cheap. 

Sometimes goat get a respiratory ailment when they are weaned and when they are transported...stress related really. I don't have lung worm where I live but I do have goats that cough; they go on an antibiotic if it doesn't clear up in about a week.


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## Southern by choice

Sara1226 said:


> If I'm not saposed to give different wormers close together than what do I do?  Let him cough for awhile?  I don't mean that in a rude sarcastic way.  I'm seriously asking.   The vet hasn't been much help after my first visit.  Hence me seeking advice on here.





babsbag said:


> Finish the Ivermectin if that is what you are giving him, I think you said you had one more day ??? @Southern by choice says that they successfully treated lung worm with ivermectin and she is one that I trust.
> Do you live in an area where it even could be lung worm?  Was the kid living on a wet pasture where there is standing water? Are you in an area where lung worm are prevalent?
> 
> The vet wanted him to take an antibiotic...did he say why?
> 
> Did you have a fecal done on him when you took him in? If not, I would collect some goat berries and get one done but since he is on medicated  feed probably not cocci but it never hurts and it should be relatively cheap.
> 
> Sometimes goat get a respiratory ailment when they are weaned and when they are transported...stress related really. I don't have lung worm where I live but I do have goats that cough; they go on an antibiotic if it doesn't clear up in about a week.



Do you know the meds the vet gave you? If not then you should call. It will be in your chart.

I know it can get confusing. We are all wanting to be helpful.
Sometimes that can be difficult when we don't have all the info.



Sara1226 said:


> Doctor gave me an antibiotic pill, and told me to also worm with safeguard. A fellow goat owner told me to use Ivermectin instead. *Now forgive me... I'm terrible at math and measurements. I can't figure it out to save my life.* I wormed for 3 days with 1/2 inch squirt out of an ivermectin paste tube.


Ivermectin isn't given 3 days in a row. Paste is not a good source if dosage isn't precise.  
So how much ivermectin have you given? 


Sara1226 said:


> I noticed one of my previous two goats (they HAVE been wormed twice) started a dry cough. So I checked back in with the vet and he said to give up on the antibiotic (I requested more) and try the safeguard.


Are the other goats coughing as well? Did that stop and it is still just the one?
If the other goats have started coughing then I would as you do suspect a virus or bacterial infection.


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## Sara1226

Yes, he has one more dose of wormer left.  The vet said to do an antibiotic to help prevent the cough from turning into pneumonia.   But it was in pill form and no matter what I did he spit it out.  He was not successfully given an antibiotic.  

To be honest,  I met the previous owner through the reputable breeder I got my first two guys from,  so I never saw what kind of pasture he was in.  But the state I live in (Northern Wisconsin) has had above average rainfall.   I was concerned because she admitted he had never been wormed AND I was concerned about how he was transported.   It was only in the 40's and it was an extremely windy day with a cold rain.  She travelled with him in the back of her pick up truck all the way from Illinois.   This meant he was going down the freeway for hundreds of miles in the cold wet rain.   Again... I noticed the cough 2 days after I brought him home.  BUT.. a respiratory infection or virus from that wouldn't explain his thin hair or being underweight, so when the doctor said worms I thought well.. He MUST be right.


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## Sara1226

I do need to reassess the situation tomorrow and see who is coughing.   I wasn't home hardly at all today.  I had to travel out of town for a doctors appointment.   I truly do appreciate all the help.   I'm someone who lacks patience and is easily frustrated,  so when I have a sick animal I want to fix the problem ASAP and move on.  This is pretty tricky and I didn't know where to turn.   The advice on here has been great!!


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## Southern by choice

Sara1226 said:


> Yes, he has one more dose of wormer left. The vet said to do an antibiotic to help prevent the cough from turning into pneumonia. But it was in pill form and no matter what I did he spit it out. He was not successfully given an antibiotic.



I repeat Ivermectin IS NOT GIVEN 3 days in a row.
The Safegaurd WOULD BE given 3 days in a row.

Definitely check them all and see who is doing what. 
I suspect you have 2 things going on.

The traveling in the rain in a pick up- UGH - set that poor lil goat up for pneumonia. 

More than likely his travel issues has caused respiratory.
BUT remember travel stress also causes a bloom. I would still get the fecal checked. The coat condition and lack of gain is generally indicative of cocci, parasites, and or mineral issues like @babsbag said.

Very surprised the breeder let the goat be transported in those conditions. YIKES!


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## babsbag

I had a couple of kids this year that a friend gave me and one them had a horrible coat. Very rough,dull, and thin. Being that Selenium is very deficient here I figured that that was the problem and just made sure that they got some good minerals without having to fight the big goats for them.  Took about a month but the coat looks 100% better. MInerals are critical for healthy goats. 

Considering the way your little guy was transported I would say pneumonia and treat with antibiotics and I wouldn't wait. As great as it is to have a definitive diagnosis it doesn't always work that way. I have been guilty of treating what I "think" it is more than once.


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## Sara1226

I'm sorry if I didn't answer every question, I was traveling 6 hours for a doctors appointment yesterday and it was hectic so I admit I didn't have a lot of time to be on here.   

Yes,  I am currently using safeguard and today is the last day.   The vet had said another sign of pneumonia is nasal discharge,  so I've definelty been watching out for that.   Gosh I hope I don't see that next!

I have been giving them all a little probios,  and two tsp of goat nutri drench in their water hoping to boost their immune systems.


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## Southern by choice

Sara1226 said:


> Yes, I am currently using safeguard and today is the last day. The vet had said another sign of pneumonia is nasal discharge, so I've definelty been watching out for that. Gosh I hope I don't see that next!


I am thoroughly confused as you said you were giving ivermection. 

As far as pneumonia- There are several different kinds of pneumonia and nasal discharge may or may not be present.

A goat kid we cared for this year for a month or so developed pneumonia.(We co-owned the kid)  Brought on by a cocci bloom. He was weaned, transported. Because of the sudden abrupt change of weaning and transport and them 3 weeks later castrated it just proved to be too much... a week later cocci bloom and pneumonia. This kid was on a cocci preventative.There was NO nasal discharge, NO coughing. He developed HIGH temp and could not stand. He was so weak and really on deaths door. He ended up having an immediate treatment of Nuflor and Banamine but still ended up on Penicillin at a pretty high dosage for a week.


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## babsbag

Honestly I have seldom seen a nasal discharge with pneumonia. 

When I got my first buck the vet told me "goats cough". After a month of this I convinced her to let me try an antibiotic and it went away. Two years ago a had kids with coughs and after a month of listening to it I treated with antibiotics and the cough went away. 

I started thinking more this morning about his age and lung worm and I just don't buy it.  I know that kids can get it, but to be coughing from it already makes it a pretty severe infestation and he is just young. My gut tells me it isn't lung worm.

Another thing my vet tells me is this..."when you hear hoof beats don't look for a zebra".  

There are so many things that can cause underweight and poor coats that personally I wouldn't be looking for that zebra.


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## Southern by choice

babsbag said:


> Honestly I have seldom seen a nasal discharge with pneumonia.
> 
> When I got my first buck the vet told me "goats cough". After a month of this I convinced her to let me try an antibiotic and it went away. Two years ago a had kids with coughs and after a month of listening to it I treated with antibiotics and the cough went away.
> 
> I started thinking more this morning about his age and lung worm and I just don't buy it.  I know that kids can get it, but to be coughing from it already makes it a pretty severe infestation and he is just young. My gut tells me it isn't lung worm.
> 
> Another thing my vet tells me is this..."when you hear hoof beats don't look for a zebra".
> 
> There are so many things that can cause underweight and poor coats that personally I wouldn't be looking for that zebra.



I can't believe you said that! I was thinking that last night. Zebra in the horse pasture! 
Like you I'd be looking at the what would be the highest probability.
Respiratory, Cocci and or parasitic bloom, minerals.
Simple easy fixes that eithet will bringg results or not. If not then go look to see if the zebra snuck in.


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## Sara1226

I'm trying to do the best I can.   I am new at this.  

I DID start with ivermectin and then I tried safegaurd.  This was before someone on here said to not use two wormers back to back.   I already started the safegaurd... It was too late.   I wish I had a magical instant remedy.   I didn't know which wormer to use quite honestly because I keep reading conflicting things about which one works and which doesn't.   I just have bad luck.   When I first started with chickens I had seen Mareks disease (confirmed by state lab necropsies), sour crop, injuries, egg binding, lice, mites, and respiratory viruses..all within the first year!   I love my animals but I have so many problems!   I can say that my little goat guy is eating a lot has energy and looks like he might be gaining weight.   No coughs heard yet today.   Going back out to check again...


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## OneFineAcre

I've never given a goat an antibiotic in a pill.
Always an injection.
In this case, I would be treating with antibiotics.


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## Southern by choice

Sara1226 said:


> I'm trying to do the best I can.   I am new at this.
> 
> I DID start with ivermectin and then I tried safegaurd.  This was before someone on here said to not use two wormers back to back.   I already started the safegaurd... It was too late.   I wish I had a magical instant remedy.   I didn't know which wormer to use quite honestly because I keep reading conflicting things about which one works and which doesn't.   I just have bad luck.   When I first started with chickens I had seen Mareks disease (confirmed by state lab necropsies), sour crop, injuries, egg binding, lice, mites, and respiratory viruses..all within the first year!   I love my animals but I have so many problems!   I can say that my little goat guy is eating a lot has energy and looks like he might be gaining weight.   No coughs heard yet today.   Going back out to check again...



As far as dewormers - 
I do not pay attention when people say such and such doesn't work anymore. Now there are dewormers that will NOT work on certain parasites but that is a different story. As far as dewormers many will preach all day long how Safeguard doesn't work yet the majority of the people that say this were NOT using the dewormers in the way it is suppose to be used. Same for ivermectin.

There are 3 ways dewormers work... some KILL, some stun and are pooped out, some interfere with glucose uptake. The protocol for repeat deworming depends on dewormer. Most dewormers work only on 4th stage. Repeating is necessary and time between varies.
Then there is the refugia and reduction test.
Many people underdose. 
Many have no clue of the weight of their animal.
Many use dewormer and still don't understand that dewormers don't do anything for cocci.

Same with antibiotics... so many people have no understanding of how to effectively use them... and many don't know the course for individual anti-biotics, but they will run to the feedstore and pick up something. This is what leads to resistance of dewormers, anti biotics. 

What region are you in?


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## Sara1226

I'm in Northern Wisconsin, winters are harsh.  Can be well below zero for days at a time,  a lot of snow.  (I'd move if I could ha!) they are predicting a very cold winter,  so I need to get these guys healthy before that starts.   

No coughing today that I witnessed.   Today is the last day of safegaurd.  If coughing persists I will start the antibiotic.   I only have duramycin on hand.. please tell me that will be ok... 

I was told that "Little Guy", (that's what we call him, but my daughter named him Rocky) had great coloring, and blue eyes, and that he would make a good show goat and people would pay $500 or more for him.   Now, I'm not one to believe everything I hear,  but I do know he's a little sweetheart.   Doesn't mind being picked up and pet all the time.  Not sure he is show material given his issues,  but we love him.   The black one is Charlie (He's my buddy) and the other is Finley.   Finley is the other I heard cough the other day.   Haven't heard it today.


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## OneFineAcre

I hope he gets better. He may have gotten an upper respitory infection and fought it off on his own.

I think whoever told you that someone would pay $500 for a Nigerian wether needs to have their head examined.


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## babsbag

You know, goats do cough...it really is one of their idiosyncrasies; they can have very touchy respiratory systems. And sometimes it can just be a virus that will go away on its own. It is good that you are concerned and paying attention, know your goats and what is normal for them and you will be leagues ahead in keeping them healthy. 

I would still get a fecal done, and get them minerals if you don't have any for them. 

And, BTW, I had Marek's in my flock too 9 months after getting my first ever chickens. It happens.


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## Sara1226

Thank you!  Advice taken.   How does he look to you?  Does he look underweight still in the picture?

Also..  All the boys are getting baking soda, goat mineral, probiotics, nutri drench and a good quality hay.   

Any thoughts on the duramycin?


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## Green Acres Farm

Sara1226 said:


> Also..  All the boys are getting baking soda, goat mineral, probiotics, nutri drench and a good quality hay.



What brand goat mineral are you giving?

When you say nutri drench and probiotics, do you mean every day or you are giving temporarily now?

And baking soda... There is some disagreement on this, but I think it is best not to have baking soda out for wethers and bucks except when needed because it negates the purpose of ammonium chloride which is to keep the urine slightly acidic to prevent urinary calculi from forming. But again, not everyone will agree on this.

Your goats are really cute! (But nobody pays $500 for a wether)


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## Sara1226

Goat mineral is made by manna pro.  

I gave the probios and nutri drench the day that I got each of them due to rehoming stress.  Then stopped.  

Restarted about a week ago daily as coughing was developing.


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## Southern by choice

You may want to add a small amount of feed.
Small amounts will help keep a better nutritional balance and as far as wethers not getting grain... that is usually very blown out of proportion. Wethers going to meat markets are fed high grain diets to fatten them up and that can cause Urinary Calculi. 
Small amount is fine for your boys especially while growing.

Never give Nutri-drench if a goat has a fever. (thought I'd throw that in there for future reference) 

Sounds good. The baking soda should be removed.
Feed should have Ammonium Chloride in it.

Not sure of your hay but Alfalfa or Alfalfa mixes are good for wethers.

They are cute for sure.

LOL $500... If the breeder could get $500 then they wouldn't have made him a wether. 

Duramycin is always good to have on hand.


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## babsbag

If you decide he is still coughing and want to treat with antibiotic Duramycin would be a good choice. It does sting but not horribly. For future reference Bio-Mycin or Noromycin doesn't sting as badly. They are all Oxcytetracycline.


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## Sara1226

It's a powder.  Not an injection.  

Strange thing about me... I'm a type 1 diabetic since I was 15 months old.. I take injections and give injections to my diabetic daughter.. BUT I don't like giving shots to animals!!  I hate it!  

A human, sure no problem.  An animal.. Nooo thaaannk yoouuu...


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## Sara1226

Just to clarify.. The seller said she could sell him intact for $500.  She made him a wether per my request.  Just so people don't think I'm an idiot.. I didn't mean 500 for a wether.   Maybe he wouldn't be worth that either way, again I'm new at this.


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## Goat Whisperer

Thank goodness it wasn't $500 for a wether 
I do wonder if that was an exaggeration... I wouldn't cut a $500 buck for someone that wants it as a pet and to buy it for $50-$175. If he is that nice I would rather him benefit someones herd. Eye color and coat color should be irrelevant when it comes to Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats. Not that this has much to do with the problem at hand 

I can give shots to critters, but I don't think I could ever do it to human unless it was life or death type thing 

I agree with the others. Have a fecal run on him and the others to check for cocci and other parasites. Kids that are on medicated feed can still get cocci. 

Start him on a quality feed as well, this will help him grow. 
I like Bartlett goat feed myself.


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## babsbag

The thing about the powders is that you have to mix it and then drench the goat and they invariably dribble it and don't get what they need. You really need to learn to do injections. There will most likely be times that you have no choice.


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## Southern by choice

Sara1226 said:


> It's a powder.  Not an injection.
> 
> Strange thing about me... I'm a type 1 diabetic since I was 15 months old.. I take injections and give injections to my diabetic daughter.. BUT I don't like giving shots to animals!!  I hate it!
> 
> A human, sure no problem.  An animal.. Nooo thaaannk yoouuu...


Ugh... so very sorry you both have to take insulin daily. I hope one day there will be a better way for those that have diabetes. It is amazing that with so much medical "advancement" there still is not a solution for this yet. (at  least that I know of) 

I completely understand not wanting to give shots but honestly take it back to the store and  buy the injectable.
Goats metabolize very quickly.
That is one of the reasons why meds are prescribed at different dosages depending on whether it is given IM or SQ. (most are- not all)

Usually, and this is still rare, goats having intestinal bacterial infections are given an oral dose.


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## Sara1226

I'm beyond frustrated.   Yesterday, as I noted,  I was out with the goats 6 times and only heard one cough.  Now today the first thing I hear is little guy coughing, and this time it sounds like more of a wet cough.   I'm sorry, but I think the vet was wrong.   I don't think it's worms anymore.  I've wormed  with two different kinds of wormer now.  Still the cough. Also basing my thoughts on feedback from people on here about the lifecycle of worms, etc. 

Unfortunately for me, I can't just simply return the soluable duramycin and get an injection.  Where I live there is no fleet farm or anything even close to that.   There is also a lack of feed mills, and the closest one.. Half hour from here doesn't have much.   I picked up the duramycin powder on the way back from my doctors apt the other day.   That store is 2 hours from me!  

I HAVE to use it,  it's all I have and I'm desperate to get him to improve.  I love the little guy but I'm kind of wishing I would have stuck with my first two guys.


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## Southern by choice

You will need to be very precise on your mg/k  and if given orally you are looking at 4x day.  I would call the vet back and get dosing instructions because there is a range on this.  
Personally I would take the goat back in and have the vet give you the injections to give.


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## OneFineAcre

Southern by choice said:


> You will need to be very precise on your mg/k  and if given orally you are looking at 4x day.  I would call the vet back and get dosing instructions because there is a range on this.
> Personally I would take the goat back in and have the vet give you the injections to give.



x2


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## babsbag

Can you order some injectable? If so, order syringes too. 5cc syringes with 18-20 gauge needles are good. 

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/noromycin-300-la


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## babsbag

I have never used the powder, wouldn't know where to start but I found this. I am not saying right or wrong, just saying that this is what they used and how they mixed it. 

http://bigoakridge.org/tetracycline-for-goats/


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## Southern by choice

babsbag said:


> I have never used the powder, wouldn't know where to start but I found this. I am not saying right or wrong, just saying that this is what they used and how they mixed it.
> 
> http://bigoakridge.org/tetracycline-for-goats/



Wow- I would never do this. First the issue is not cocci but possible pneumonia. 2nd how many times per day is very relevant.

I also think playing vet is a bad idea and we wonder why they want to take all this off the shelves.
Yes, everything is off label for goats but regardless anything not labeled for goats is to be given ONLY under the supervision of a veterinarian. 

I also think that someone relatively new to goats is taking a big risk in doing this. It does take time to find the right vet but also working with the vet is how you build relationship and learn what is necessary for down the road. 

Many with experience will know what to do when they see symptoms present but that is with experience. Newbies may not see reaction or secondary issues that may arise. 

I can honestly say that out of the few times we have ever had to give anti-biotics I called my vet and discussed what was happening BEFORE giving anything. Because my vet(s) knows me and my capabilities it is usually "yep, sounds good- let me know how things go". 

You will have these goats for the next 10-15 years. Build a relationship with your vet, work together because down the road you will have an emergency and if you don't have a vet that knows you or your animals you will be up the creek without a paddle.

I say that with COMPASSION and care for you and your lil guy.


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## Sara1226

Ok, in my defense... I TRIED to get another antibiotic from my vet days ago and they will not give me one!  They just told me to keep trying to deworm.   I'm not trying to be unreasonable here.  I live in a tiny town with not much around.   Trust me,  if my husband would move I'd be out of here like yesterday.   

I'm doing the best I can with what I have.  

I just learned that the previous owner admitted that ALL of her goats are coughing.    None of them have progressed into nasal discharge or anything like that it remains a dry cough.   Some of her goats did show improvement after worming, but then they started coughing again.   

I'm sorry but it's hard for me to return to my vet when I feel like they aren't helping.   I will look into ordering suringes and a proper antibiotic online.


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## Sara1226

Maybe since she lives near a big city she should take one to a vet and get a diagnosis so we both know what is going on!


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## babsbag

I agree with @Southern by choice when it comes to building a relationship with a vet; it can mean life or death sometimes, literally. I have a great vet that raises her own goats and if I were to call her for a coughing goat she would laugh at me; and then ask me what I have tried. She EXPECTS me to try and "fix" my goats before I call her. Granted, I'm not new at this and I have treated a lot of respiratory issues in goats but I honestly would use the antibiotic, but not the powder unless it is a life or death thing. 

When I was new to goats I had a crappy vet too and my goat would be dead if it wasn't for friends that gave me the home phone number of the vet I use now. It seems that disaster always strikes on a weekend or after hours.  A good vet needs to be spoiled and given cookies and chocolate...and wine on occasion.


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## Sara1226

But... There are NO other farm animal vets around here, none at all.    

My 3rd one is coughing now too.  He's my buddy.  I'm at my wits end.  Winter is coming and if I don't fix these guys they might not make it through that.  

I contacted the seller and requested that she seek vet advice and get a proper diagnosis for both of our sakes.   You never know, she might not be willing to do that.   I will ask my vet again if he will do an injection, but I feel doubtful.  Does anyone have a link they'd share where I can purchase the correct vaccine?    Maybe one of my friends would help me give it to my goats.  I'm so scared.


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## Southern by choice

I understand your apprehension however if this is the only vet around then it really is even more important to take the goat back in and allow the vet to listen to those lungs.  Goats are interesting creatures and often it can take more than one try to get what's going on.   
Has he run a temperature at all?
To which vaccine are you referring? Right now if he is sick then you shouldn't give any vaccines.


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## Green Acres Farm

@Sara1226, when you said vacccine did you mean injectable antibiotics? Here is the link to injectable oxytetracycline:

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/bio-mycin-200

This site also carries a lot of helpful supplies you might like to look into.


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## Hens and Roos

sorry to hear that your goats are coughing hopefully you can get this figured out soon.  Can't offer anything that hasn't been said.  Do any of them have a temperature?


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## Sara1226

I will check temps first thing in the morning and report back.


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## Sara1226

Ok, I just learned some additional interesting info. I'm not the only one who got a goat from that lady, and that persons goat is coughing too.  She tried ivermec,  the cough was reduced but then returned.   I too tried invermectin AND safegaurd and my guys are still coughing.   She called her vet and he thinks it's lung worms too.. But their plan of action is to repeat the ivermec and they want me to do the same.   But I have this now.. Early in this thread someone suggested this.   Can someone clarify dosing?  Packet says lung worms right on it!


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## Southern by choice

Maybe someone else will. 
I feel a responsibility here to speak up and say you are playing with fire. 3 different dewormers in a week. You could kill your goat. 
Overdosing with dewormer in this way can seriously damage the rumin of your goat.
Will you know the signs if the rumin is shutting down?

Did you read that lesions are left even after treatment? So what that means is the cough may persist. (if it is lungworm)

Second "lungworm" wouldn't in a week or two or however long you have had him cause the other goats to start coughing.

Yes, prohibit treats certain lungworms  and certain stages. 

again- depending on what type of lungworm- 

_*Muellerius capillaris*_
Chemical control is difficult. Some usual anthelmintics such as broad spectrum benzimidazoles(albendazole, febantel, fenbendazole,oxfendazole, etc.) or levamisole *are not or only partially effective against these worms*. Macrocyclic lactones (e.g. abamectin,doramectin, eprinomectin,* ivermectin, moxidectin) seem to be effective against adult worms at the usual therapeutic dose, but not or only partially effective against immature larvae.*


_*Dictyocaulus viviparous*_
Excepting slow-release boluses, most wormers containingbenzimidazoles (e.g. albendazole, febantel,fenbendazole, oxfendazole, etc.), levamisole, tetrahydropyrimidines (e.g. morantel, pyrantel) and other classic anthelmintics kill the worms shortly after treatment and are quickly metabolized and/or excreted within a few hours or days. This means that they have a *short residual effect*,* or no residual effect at all.* As a consequence treated animals are cured from worms but do not remain protected against new infections. To ensure that they remain worm-free the animals have to be dewormed periodically, depending on the local epidemiological, ecological and climatic conditions.* An exception to this are macrocyclic lactones (e.g.abamectin, doramectin, eprinomectin,ivermectin, moxidectin), that offer several weeks protection against re-infestation, depending on the delivery formand the specific parasite. *


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## babsbag

I posted a link earlier to Noromycin 300 and syringes from Jeffers.  

What I don't understand is why your other goats would be coughing if it is lung worm?  Are they out grazing on wet pastures? 

BTW, my goats get respiratory infections and do not always run a fever. 

I agree with @Southern by choice, if you have already wormed him with Safeguard and Ivermectin that should have done the job. I would be very hesitant to worm again. Here is a chart though for future reference. And with Prohibit you can OD so you MUST know how much a goat weighs and dose correctly.  Can you talk to your friends vet before worming again?


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## Sara1226

Ok, understood.  I won't use this wormer.  I too am still skeptical that it's worms.  I don't know much about the life cycle of the lungworms,  I will try to research it tonight.   I assumed that my other two kids got it from exposure to the little guys droppings,  as much as I try to clean 3 times a day I can't get all the "capers" as my husband calls them.    But again,  I don't know if lungworms can spread via droppings.   I did read tonight that lungworms can not only be carried by snails but also slugs.   As mentioned previously,  my whole area has had above average rainfall this year.   Are my goats on wet pasture? No, but there are slugs everywhere!   Nasty little creatures... They can be seen crawling up the sides of my chicken coop, shed,  there are so many this year.   I even said to my husband during the summer that the amount of slugs was ridiculous.  Yuck!  Plans in the morning:

Weight check them all.
Take temps.
Check in with vet to ask about antibiotic that is NOT a pill form. 

Somehow I have to get them all healthy.  Winter is coming soon here.


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## Southern by choice

I have posted this info for you already. Explaining both with links to videos to help you understand. @babsbag  has as well...

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/coughing-lung-worms-or-virus.34679/#post-452305


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## babsbag

I don't know much about lungworm either but I am pretty sure that they wouldn't develop a cough from them that quickly. The *prepatent period* (time between infection and first larvae shed in the feces) is about 1 month and then the snail or slug has to get infected and that takes a few weeks to months and then the goat has to ingest the slug, it isn't quick.  If it is lung worm I would venture a guess  that is _*Dictyocaulus filaria, *_which does not require a slug or snail. 

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2640&Itemid=2918

http://parasitipedia.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2639&Itemid=2917

Don't your chickens eat the slugs? 

I would specifically ask the vet for some injectable Oxcytetracycline, it comes under many brand names.


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## Sara1226

Southern by choice said:


> I have posted this info for you already. Explaining both with links to videos to help you understand. @babsbag  has as well...
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/coughing-lung-worms-or-virus.34679/#post-452305




Yes,  there is a lot of information here.  My life is very hectic right now, very busy with doctors appointments and such... so I apologize for missing something in the thread.   I've TRIED to read everything completely.  

It's very difficult to be new at this and get conflicting information from not only the two goat breeders I'm dealing with but also two vets  as well.   According to them I need to keep worming,but from what I read on here I should be doing an injectable antibiotic.   For the record I agree, and I'm willing to do that.   I need to communicate with my vet even though he hasn't been much help.  I worry though that if I don't follow his instructions, and something goes wrong he will be like.. Well why didn't you listen to me?  Then maybe refuse to help me in the future.    This is such a tricky situation.   

* Going out to take weights and temps now.


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## Southern by choice

Well at this point you have followed your vet's protocol which is good and therefore it gives you a greater ability to start working with your vet. When you return you have the better chance of moving in another direction because you have done what was prescribed, so now the vet may be more inclined to look at other possibilities.

Definitely inform the vet of the ages and the transport issues you had as well as the fact that now he has come in your other goats are coughing as well ... in a respectful way you can say this is why I am wondering if it is possibly viral or bacterial because it appears to be contagious.

What were the temps?


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## babsbag

I believe that I read that worming for one of the worms (not sure which one) should be repeated in 2 weeks.


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## Sara1226

I am not at home where the temps were written down,  but I recall as follows:

Little guy.   100.8.   Weight was 16.5
He only weighed 14 when I had him to the vet early last week, so I'm glad he gained some weight.  

The other two temps were 102.4    And 101.6.  
One weighed 22 pounds and the other 23 pounds.


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## Sara1226

I just wanted to thank everyone again for the advice and post an update.   I haven't heard any of my wethers coughing since last week,  and I think things are finally improving.   I did end up deworming again and using an antibiotic, but now I have a new problem.  

My little guy is seriously under weight.   I know in my last post I said he weighed 16 pounds, but after the last deworming and a recent drop in (weather) temperature outside he went back down to 14 pounds.  He is very boney, and I'm running out of time to get more weight on him before my awful winter sets in.   He is 13 weeks old, what SHOULD he weigh, and how can I get him to gain weight quickly??  

Ps.. Still giving him probiotics, goat mineral, baking soda, and nutri drench for goats.  And good quality clean hay of course.


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## Green Acres Farm

Sara1226 said:


> I just wanted to thank everyone again for the advice and post an update.   I haven't heard any of my wethers coughing since last week,  and I think things are finally improving.   I did end up deworming again and using an antibiotic, but now I have a new problem.
> 
> My little guy is seriously under weight.   I know in my last post I said he weighed 16 pounds, but after the last deworming and a recent drop in (weather) temperature outside he went back down to 14 pounds.  He is very boney, and I'm running out of time to get more weight on him before my awful winter sets in.   He is 13 weeks old, what SHOULD he weigh, and how can I get him to gain weight quickly??
> 
> Ps.. Still giving him probiotics, goat mineral, baking soda, and nutri drench for goats.  And good quality clean hay of course.


Did you ever get a fecal at the vet? Was there any cocci? Deworming does not effect cocci as they are protozoans, not worms. 

Drop the baking soda. Urinaru Calculi is a common problem in wethers. You want their urine to be slightly acidic to prevent crystals from forming. 

Feed is important for growing kids. TSC has good feed brand called Noble Goat. A little bit would help him put on weight. If cocci is a problem for you, the Noble Goat feed with the red strip on the tag has a coccidiostat to PREVENT cocci. Keep in mind it will not treat it. Oh, and medicated feed won't be available next year, at least where I am by the way.

A little bit of alfalfa pellets or alfalfa hay might be good, too. You could ask your vet what type of urinary calculi he usually sees. The vet in my area almost always sees calcium crystals, so he does not reccomend feeding extra calcium rich hay. If your vet sees a lot of phosphorus, a little added alfalfa would be a good idea. You want to try to keep the Calcium/ phosphorus ratio at 2:1.

You probably already said this, but what brand mineral are you using? TSC has a loose goat mineral with added ammonium chloride to prevent urinary calculi.


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## Southern by choice

I think we have all already shared with you steps you need to take.
Did you have a fecal yet?
*If not and he has cocci then he will get worse and just die.
*
Already recommended a dairy goat feed.
Already explained about the baking soda.
Already explained about the 2:1 up to 4:1 Ca/P 

With all the drugs you have given him it greatly affects the rumin.
Definitely pull off leaves and feed them as well.
Stop giving him Nutri-drench. It is only for when they need an immediate "jump-start", NOT for constant use! It is adding nothing but sugars at this point.

If he is having an issue with appetite then he should get a B-12 injection. It stimulates appetite.


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## babsbag

He is on medicated feed already, right? I would use the Noble Goat that has the ammonium chloride (AC) in it. I seem to recall that you aren't near any Tractor Supply Stores but if you can get to one they should have a couple of goat feeds that has the AC in it. You could also add a little bit of Calf Manna, but don't go overboard on it, follow what is on the bag and only do it for a short time. It is supplement, not a complete feed. Beet pulp is another good supplement.

@Green Acres Farm  Coccidiostats in feed will not be affected by the VFD. It is only antibiotics in feed, unless your state is different.


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## Green Acres Farm

babsbag said:


> @Green Acres Farm  Coccidiostats in feed will not be affected by the VFD. It is only antibiotics in feed, unless your state is different.


That's what our vet said. 

He said he wished an exception would be made for goats. 

Maybe he was mistaken.


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## babsbag

That is pretty bad when your vet doesn't even know.  It is only drugs that are important to humans, and coccidiostats isn't one of them. 

https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/programs/NYSCHAP/nysvfrp/vfd.cfm#NotVFD

*What drugs are not affected by the VFD?*
Drugs that are not medically important (medically important antimicrobials are those that are of therapeutic importance in human medicine and there is a risk of microbial resistance development if they are used in an injudicious manner).

Ionophores (monensin, lasalocid, etc.)
Bacitracin (BMD, bacitracin zinc)
Bambermycins
Carbadox
Drugs that are not antimicrobials, for example:

Anthelmentics: Fenbendazole, Ivermectin
Beta agonists: Ractopamine, Zilpaterol
Coccidiostats: Clopidol, Decoquinate, Diclazuril


----------



## Sara1226

Ok, so I have another question.   A stool sample has been checked.   He does indeed have cocci and strongyles were found STILL even though I have dewormed him 3 times now.    I will be treating again and treating for cocci.  I don't have med questions... My concern is for my other animals now as well.   Can these parasites be transferred to my chickens and my dog too!?!  I do wear the same boots in my goat pen as I do in my yard and chicken run.   Does anyone know?   I'm really worried about ALL of my other pets now too.


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## Southern by choice

The cocci is species specific as well as the parasites. However goats & Sheep  do share the same parasites.

What are you using for the cocci?

You need to deworm according to the dewormer you are using. Most kill only 4th stage.


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## Sara1226

I'm using corid,  I know sulmet is better,  but like I said earlier there is nowhere to get that around where I live.   

What are strongyles?  Is that a round worm?  

Wouldn't it be possible for my chickens or dog to get the worms if they ate some of the goat droppings?


----------



## Southern by choice

Again, it is species specific.
It is a classification of worms.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

Sara1226 said:


> I'm using corid,  I know sulmet is better,  but like I said earlier there is nowhere to get that around where I live.



It's better than nothing! I have not seen other coccidiostats at feed stores. I buy DiMethox off Jeffer's online.


Sara1226 said:


> What are strongyles?  Is that a round worm?



Yes



Sara1226 said:


> Wouldn't it be possible for my chickens or dog to get the worms if they ate some of the goat droppings?


No. They will die inside of them. A lot of people like to have chickens in with goats because the chickens will eat goat worms and they die inside the chicken.


----------



## bonbean01

Hope this clears up for you soon!


----------



## Sara1226

Oh my gosh me too,  thank you.   I still can't get him to put on any weight.   He's such a mess.    

I just keep trying my best...


----------



## Southern by choice

Green Acres Farm said:


> Yes



from modern Latin _Strongylus_, from Greek _strongulos_ ‘round.’

This is a family- IOW there are many kinds of "ROUND" worms. The most dangerous is the Haemonchus contortus also known as the barberpole worm. It is a bloodsucker.

You must treat the cocci  and do a PROPER deworming and repeat dewormings so eventually all stages are killed THEN he will gain weight and hopefully start to thrive.

I suspect the cocci is doing far more damage than the parasites. Cocci destroys the lining of the intestines so nutrition is not absorbed well. Cocci causes coughing, like I said before.

Although if he isn't in a quarantine area he is dropping this everywhere and exposing your other goats.


----------



## babsbag

You might talk to your vet about doing a preventative round of Corid on your other goats, unless of course they have already been exposed, in which case you may need to get fecals done on them too and treat them all.


----------



## greybeard

Southern by choice said:


> As far as dewormers -
> I do not pay attention when people say such and such doesn't work anymore. Now there are dewormers that will NOT work on certain parasites but that is a different story. As far as dewormers many will preach all day long how Safeguard doesn't work yet the majority of the people that say this were NOT using the dewormers in the way it is suppose to be used. Same for ivermectin.
> 
> There are 3 ways dewormers work... some KILL, some stun and are pooped out, some interfere with glucose uptake. The protocol for repeat deworming depends on dewormer. Most dewormers work only on 4th stage. Repeating is necessary and time between varies.
> Then there is the refugia and reduction test.
> Many people underdose.
> Many have no clue of the weight of their animal.
> Many use dewormer and still don't understand that dewormers don't do anything for cocci.
> 
> Same with antibiotics... so many people have no understanding of how to effectively use them... and many don't know the course for individual anti-biotics, but they will run to the feedstore and pick up something. This is what leads to resistance of dewormers, anti biotics.
> 
> What region are you in?


One of the best posts in this thread.
[disclaimer:I am not a goat person at all so I will not offer any specific or even general suggestion as to the treatment of the animal(s) in question], but having followed the thread for awhile and seen it become quite confusing,  I will offer some suggestions to both the original poster and to the 2-3 most experienced and knowledgeable goat folks in the thread.
Sara: (and everyone else)
1. 1st, edit your profile so your location shows up in the box left of all your posts. (IMO, this entry should be a required entry across the board--at least a region or state for all members)
2. When you post about a problem, include as much basic information as possible, including about the animal, weather and climate conditions, recent known medical, both preventative and treatment history, whether on pasture or dry pen, type feed and frequency, and do it in list format. Be as detailed as possible, but be concise and short with each entry. If there are specific questions about one or two of them, your advisors and mentors will ask them. 
a.
b.
c. etc
3. I know you are concerned about your vet. Keep in mind, that veterinary medicine is a science, but it's not an 'exact' science, any more than human medicine is. Neither humans nor livestock come with an onboard diagnostic program they can just plug into and know exactly what is wrong. Try to be patient with them, and has been said, develop a good long term working relationship with your vet.
One of the things sorely missing from BYH is a licensed vet member that will pop in occasionally, browse this particular section and interject their professional opinion, even if it's just to back up what general  member(s) have already state--or to separate the grain from the chaff so to speak. (we are fortunate to have @ least one on each of the cattle forums I'm on, and they are an invaluable asset ). Inasmuch as this emergency section is mostly goat related, (as are the majority of the members) perhaps some of you could persuade your own vet to join and look in on things as time permits...
4. When you get a new animal, always assume they are in need of deworming. Nothing comes on my place, regardless of source that doesn't get dewormed and vaccinated within it's first 5 days here. Cheapest insurance there is. After that, a deworm regimen needs to be followed specific to your locale and species. (I never take a seller's word on this--just not worth it to me)

To the mentors here (you know who you are) :
Obviously you are each doing your utmost to help, but often on a long illness related thread like this, (10 pgs and started Oct 17) it is helpful for you more knowledgeable folks to get together off-thread (PM or cell phone) look at all the data and info, do some brainstorming  and come to a consensus agreement on treatment, and post your results.  Sara is no doubt a bit confused right now on what to do. (We do this quite often on the cattle boards when a 'sticky wicket' is encountered)

Good luck to all on this problem.


----------



## OneFineAcre

greybeard said:


> One of the best posts in this thread.
> [disclaimer:I am not a goat person at all so I will not offer any specific or even general suggestion as to the treatment of the animal(s) in question], but having followed the thread for awhile and seen it become quite confusing,  I will offer some suggestions to both the original poster and to the 2-3 most experienced and knowledgeable goat folks in the thread.
> Sara: (and everyone else)
> 1. 1st, edit your profile so your location shows up in the box left of all your posts. (IMO, this entry should be a required entry across the board--at least a region or state for all members)
> 2. When you post about a problem, include as much basic information as possible, including about the animal, weather and climate conditions, recent known medical, both preventative and treatment history, whether on pasture or dry pen, type feed and frequency, and do it in list format. Be as detailed as possible, but be concise and short with each entry. If there are specific questions about one or two of them, your advisors and mentors will ask them.
> a.
> b.
> c. etc
> 3. I know you are concerned about your vet. Keep in mind, that veterinary medicine is a science, but it's not an 'exact' science, any more than human medicine is. Neither humans nor livestock come with an onboard diagnostic program they can just plug into and know exactly what is wrong. Try to be patient with them, and has been said, develop a good long term working relationship with your vet.
> One of the things sorely missing from BYH is a licensed vet member that will pop in occasionally, browse this particular section and interject their professional opinion, even if it's just to back up what general  member(s) have already state--or to separate the grain from the chaff so to speak. (we are fortunate to have @ least one on each of the cattle forums I'm on, and they are an invaluable asset ). Inasmuch as this emergency section is mostly goat related, (as are the majority of the members) perhaps some of you could persuade your own vet to join and look in on things as time permits...
> 4. When you get a new animal, always assume they are in need of deworming. Nothing comes on my place, regardless of source that doesn't get dewormed and vaccinated within it's first 5 days here. Cheapest insurance there is. After that, a deworm regimen needs to be followed specific to your locale and species. (I never take a seller's word on this--just not worth it to me)
> 
> To the mentors here (you know who you are) :
> Obviously you are each doing your utmost to help, but often on a long illness related thread like this, (10 pgs and started Oct 17) it is helpful for you more knowledgeable folks to get together off-thread (PM or cell phone) look at all the data and info, do some brainstorming  and come to a consensus agreement on treatment, and post your results.  Sara is no doubt a bit confused right now on what to do. (We do this quite often on the cattle boards when a 'sticky wicket' is encountered)
> 
> Good luck to all on this problem.



And veterinary medicine is unlike human medicine in that the patient can't tell the doctor where it hurts and how it feels.


----------



## Sara1226

I apologize.  I will not post on this thread any longer.   I'm sorry this has gotten so long and I'm sorry my location isn't on here.  Not only am I new to goats, I'm new to this site and didn't know how to list my location.   In my defense, I DID deworm him as well as all my other animals when they come in.   This goat was clearly ailing long before I got him.   

I've said it more than once...  I'm doing the best I can.   His latest fecal showed a lesser load of parasites so... I atleast have knocked the parasite load down and I did something right.   

Each and every one of my animals mean the world to me.  Even my 19 chickens have names and they are not for dinner.  I'm not a huge farm and I don't have farming knowledge.   I have these animals, some of them rescues, because I love them.   I will continue to keep trying.    No more posts.  Thanks to everyone again!!


----------



## NH homesteader

I think greybeard was trying to be helpful to everyone.  Please don't take it as a negative to you.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Ditto 

I don't think anyone was trying to be rude. 

Something everyone needs to remember is that when on a public forum where there is no voice or facial expressions that the "tone" can often get lost.


----------



## greybeard

Sara1226 said:


> I apologize.  I will not post on this thread any longer.   I'm sorry this has gotten so long and I'm sorry my location isn't on here.  Not only am I new to goats, I'm new to this site and didn't know how to list my location.   In my defense, I DID deworm him as well as all my other animals when they come in.   This goat was clearly ailing long before I got him.
> 
> I've said it more than once...  I'm doing the best I can.   His latest fecal showed a lesser load of parasites so... I atleast have knocked the parasite load down and I did something right.
> 
> Each and every one of my animals mean the world to me.  Even my 19 chickens have names and they are not for dinner.  I'm not a huge farm and I don't have farming knowledge.   I have these animals, some of them rescues, because I love them.   I will continue to keep trying.    No more posts.  Thanks to everyone again!!



You've nothing to apologize for.
Please, DO continue to post.
I meant absolutely no disrespect to anyone. I'm sure you are doing all you can with a very difficult problem, as is everyone else.  As I said, I offer no specific treatment to this problem as I am totally unqualified to do so. And yes, we understand that the problem existed before you got the animal--that is usually the case.

It's just that sometimes, when there seems to be multiple problems reported all at once, (lungworms-roundworms, cocci-vaccinations-different medications) threads and treatment recommendations can get confusing especially if someone is new to a species, or even new to a breed within the species.
Perhaps it's just me that is confused.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I thought your post was very good, it didn't this it came across as rude 

I kinda had the same feeling you did…


----------



## Southern by choice

greybeard said:


> One of the things sorely missing from BYH is a licensed vet member that will pop in occasionally, browse this particular section and interject their professional opinion, even if it's just to back up what general member(s) have already state--or to separate the grain from the chaff so to speak.



Sounds good but not a very good reality.
The issue with goat vets is they are primarily cattle vets that also do some sheep/goat.
Even the "goat" vets never agree on anything. This is why there are so many online goat forums. Some don't think adult goats can have issues with cocci, some don't think goats can have cocci in the winter, some don't think EPG's are important "just go by eye color", some say deworm every 3 months, some say switch dewormers all the time, some say there is no problem if there is no diarrhea, the list goes on...and on...  

Many problems do go offline but that also doesn't help others.
Often the very first thing that should happen or needs to be done the person doesn't do. Most things goat are simple not falling in the category of "Zebra in the horse pasture".


----------



## Latestarter

@Sara1226 Please don't withdraw. Greybeard wasn't saying you did anything wrong. Nobody is blaming you or accusing you. He was trying to help and save further confusion/frustration (to you) by recommending a course of action for everyone else providing guidance/suggestions TO you.  We all get pretty "anxious" to help when a member is having an issue. The result can be information overload to the person with the issue. I'm sure we all wish you to stay and update us on your progress (as well as your goat's progress).


----------



## OneFineAcre

And not the first thread where you see competing advice
And now sometimes the advice becomes what has become the consensus on forums
People diagnosing animals based on what they have read  even if they have no first hand knowledge 
Just what they assume to be true based on what the more "knowledgeable " forum members say based on how long they have been on the forum and the number of times they have posted
And let's be honest
Everybody wants to be a non GMO/organic homesteader now and goats are "starter" livestock 
So a lot of people with little to no knowledge of animal husbandry have a herd


----------



## Southern by choice

OneFineAcre said:


> And not the first thread where you see competing advice
> And now sometimes the advice becomes what has become the consensus on forums
> People diagnosing animals based on what they have read  even if they have no first hand knowledge
> Just what they assume to be true based on what the more "knowledgeable " forum members say based on how long they have been on the forum and the number of times they have posted
> And let's be honest
> Everybody wants to be a non GMO/organic homesteader now and goats are "starter" livestock
> So a lot of people with little to no knowledge of animal husbandry have a herd



X 2 !!! 
I also am not a fan of telling someone to just give this or that to their goat especially to someone that has no experience.


----------



## NH homesteader

Goats shouldn't be "starter"  livestock.  They are one of the more complicated animals and there aren't a lot of vets to help! I admittedly had no idea what I was getting into when I started with goats but I can thank you all on here for helping me understand more.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

NH homesteader said:


> Goats shouldn't be "starter"  livestock.  They are one of the more complicated animals and there aren't a lot of vets to help! I admittedly had no idea what I was getting into when I started with goats but I can thank you all on here for helping me understand more.


Exactly!


----------



## babsbag

But they are small, cheap, friendly, and easy to find so they do end up as starter livestock. I had a goat 34 years ago and I was scared to death of her. She was a big Alpine that we got from my in-laws. She has a bad limp and DH just said "she is coming with us"; turns out she had a sticker in her foot. They were probably going to eat her.  When we moved I gave her away to a church camp. No goats or livestock for 26 years...then came 5 acres, then chickens, and then goats. Now look at me. 

I have been fortunate to have a good vet, a dairy goat club, and a few mentors.


----------



## OneFineAcre

NH homesteader said:


> Goats shouldn't be "starter"  livestock.  They are one of the more complicated animals and there aren't a lot of vets to help! I admittedly had no idea what I was getting into when I started with goats but I can thank you all on here for helping me understand more.



I don't agree 
Goats milk is the most consumed in the world because most people in the world are poor and they are easy keepers
We haven't been doing this as long as other folks but out of 50 or 60 kids we've lost 4 or 5 to Coccidia
We have lost 1 mature doe who had a damaged heart It may have been due to a selinium deficiency 
But we had given her selinium
Sometimes they just die and you can't do anything 
Goats are not rocket science but they do need proper care


----------



## NH homesteader

Well then maybe I'm over thinking it


----------



## OneFineAcre

NH homesteader said:


> Well then maybe I'm over thinking it


They do need proper care
That's for sure
But honestly a lot of people do over complicate things
Not saying you are


----------



## NH homesteader

I try not to...  But it is difficult sorting through soooooooo much information that not everyone agrees on!


----------



## babsbag

KISS
I decided a few years ago to just KISS. Alfalfa hay for everyone, grain on the milk stand, loose minerals all of the time.  BO-Se, pneumonia vaccine, and CDT in Dec. I added Multi-min this last year and will probably do that again in Dec. as well and not do the Bo-Se. Worms are not an issue for me. Feet get done in Dec. and May or June. 

Kids get BO-Se if they need it, CDT at 3-4 weeks, and cocci prevention at 3 weeks. They don't get grain, only alfalfa.  

I try to make it simple. My goats look better this year than they ever have and I think it is the hay and multi-min. I found dairy quality alfalfa and the goats look amazing.


----------



## Southern by choice

I don't think goats are hard really. 
They can be especially to a newbie that find themselves with a sick goat.

The very first basic step is a fecal. Yet how many times do people say this and it goes ignored.  
Baby goats are prone to cocci which opens the door for pneumonia and failure to thrive etc.
Adult goats- generally a parasite issue.
The majority of goat issues are parasitic in nature. 
Yet instead of paying for a fecal many will pump all kinds of everything in the goat- spend way more money than necessary instead of the first step. 

Sometimes people leave important info out and that makes it very difficult as well. I don't even mean here on the forum, I mean with their vet.


----------



## babsbag

Since parasites aren't an issue at my house a sick goat is usually respiratory but since I started the pneumonia vaccine I don't see that anymore.  Kids do get cocci if I don't do a prevention, almost guaranteed.

But I have had goats die from a twisted intestine, UC, selenium deficiency, and the unknown, ever after a necropsy. Goats can be alive and fine this morning and dead tonight. When they go down they can go down fast, especially the kids.  I think that their propensity to die quickly leads to the belief that they are picky and hard to raise.  Add to that the many diseases that they can get that shorten their lifespan and have no cure it can make for a complicated animal.


----------



## Sara1226

I wasn't going to post on here anymore, but I'd like to address the goats aren't for starter herds comment.   I would hope it's not being implied that I shouldn't have gotten goats.  

Always remember in life there is a reason for everything.  Why did I get goats..  Well because I love animals and have wanted goats since I was a kid.    I am 5'1, 124 pounds, and my husband is gone working a lot so I did NOT want animals like cows, alpacas, pigs, etc that could easily over power me.   That's ALL I wanted and all I will ever want.  To give a loving home to a few wethers that needed a home, and have some chickens which some of those are rescues.

Why do I have a sick goat?  Well because the breeder didn't worm him prior to transport, and transport conditions were poor.  Am I blaming that person 100%...  NO,  but those things certainly didn't help him.   

We all start somewhere... Right?   I guess I can't say enough..  "I'm doing the best I can".   I had actually been checking back in to give an update, but I think I'll just send an update to anyone privately if they would like.   I DO have a plan and I AM trying to get him healthier.   Found out some interesting things today too.   Oh.. and for those who thought I wasn't sending in fecal samples to the vet.. I was and I did.  Got some results Monday, and talked with the other lady who got a goat from this breeder again also.    The only good news I have that I am willing to share on here is that I got him to gain a pound now and he's eating a lot!   It's still clearly going to be a long road though sadly.


----------



## babsbag

I don't think that anyone was implying that you shouldn't own goats. I agree that goats can seem complicated at times but a lot of that is because the research has not been done on goats to figure out "how they work". So much of what we have to use for treatments is "off label" for goats and even the best vet may not have the resources or information available to know how to treat them unless they have experience and everyone still does it differently. There truly is more than one way to "skin a cat" and treat a goat.  Even my vet, that has her own herd of goats, has been stumped more than once by a goat. 

Please update this thread, it gives everyone the opportunity to learn from the experiences you are having and it may help others down the road. I am happy that he is gaining a little weight and has a good appetite. If it winter rolls around and he is still small and you think he is cold you might get him a goat coat. 

Do you really have a pet lobster? A real one, like the ones that people eat for dinner?


----------



## NH homesteader

OK since  that was my comment I'm going to respond.  Please stop thinking we are criticizing.  I started with goats (well after chickens) and sometimes I go wow they're more complicated than other animals I've gotten since then.  That's all. 

We would all love to hear how your  goats are doing. Glad to hear he's gaining! I have a little buckling I've had trouble getting to gain weight and I know how frustrating that can be.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Sara1226 said:


> I wasn't going to post on here anymore, but I'd like to address the goats aren't for starter herds comment.   I would hope it's not being implied that I shouldn't have gotten goats.
> 
> Always remember in life there is a reason for everything.  Why did I get goats..  Well because I love animals and have wanted goats since I was a kid.    I am 5'1, 124 pounds, and my husband is gone working a lot so I did NOT want animals like cows, alpacas, pigs, etc that could easily over power me.   That's ALL I wanted and all I will ever want.  To give a loving home to a few wethers that needed a home, and have some chickens which some of those are rescues.
> 
> Why do I have a sick goat?  Well because the breeder didn't worm him prior to transport, and transport conditions were poor.  Am I blaming that person 100%...  NO,  but those things certainly didn't help him.
> 
> We all start somewhere... Right?   I guess I can't say enough..  "I'm doing the best I can".   I had actually been checking back in to give an update, but I think I'll just send an update to anyone privately if they would like.   I DO have a plan and I AM trying to get him healthier.   Found out some interesting things today too.   Oh.. and for those who thought I wasn't sending in fecal samples to the vet.. I was and I did.  Got some results Monday, and talked with the other lady who got a goat from this breeder again also.    The only good news I have that I am willing to share on here is that I got him to gain a pound now and he's eating a lot!   It's still clearly going to be a long road though sadly.


I think you need to "take a step back" and look over this thread again. 

No one is accusing you, no one is saying you shouldn't have gotten the goats, no one is saying this is your fault. 

Do you think this thread would be this big if people wanted to attack you, if people didn't care? It is the opposite- everyone of these members are trying to HELP you. 

Now why would they do this? Because they care. They care about YOU and your goats. 
That is why @greybeard suggested what he did. To help you, because frankly, this whole goat thing can get rather confusing! 

You have gotten very offended/defensive over nothing. Perhaps some of the posts came across wrong, as I said before the tone often gets lost on the forum. One really needs to have an open mind participating on online forums. 

Look at all the members replying to this thread (to HELP you), they have all been here for some time. Everyone of these members have put in so much to help goat owners like you. Everyone here does care. We feel the ups and downs that livestock owners go through on here. We feel the excitement when a new kid is born, and we feel the devastation and sadness when that does doesn't survive that emergency C-section. 

I think it saddens most of us on here that you have interpreted it that way


----------



## Southern by choice

Sara there has been no derogatory comments. This is a great thread. Many are rooting for you and want to help. Any new kind of animal can be hard. The learning curve is steep sometimes. 
We work with many first time goat owners and love it! 
Some breeders sell a goat and that is the end of that. We aren't like that and love being able to give as much education as possible so that when they start breeding ( most people are buying them for dairy goats - to be milked) it helps them be a support to their future owners.

One of the hardest things is the waiting... it takes goats awhile to recuperate. Now that he is being treated and getting better it still will take a bit of time. The weight will come. Sometimes it just seems like it is taking so long.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

I am sorry if you thought I directed my agreement to goats being bad starter animals toward s you. I wasn't meaning that at ALL.
What I meant was, goats were a lot harder for me to care for than I first thought. I had no idea they were so complicated.
I can see how you thought that was directed towards you. I didn't mean to imply that at all. You are doing good job and learning a lot.


----------



## Sara1226

Just wanted to post an update.  I've had this little guy for about a month now.  He hasn't grown at all, I know I posted that he did gain a little, but every time he gains it comes right back off again, and the coughing is persisting.   At this point he has been dewormed 3 times, treated for cocci twice, and 5 days of the antibiotic Pen G.  The breeder is saying his size is genetic.   In my opinion maybe height could be, but shouldn't be put SOME weight on?   Rember my vets original analysis... he said his hair was thin and condition on a scale of 1-10 was a 2.   I have done everything!  I'm now having some problems in my personal life as well so times are tough right now.   I have a good friend that is a veterinary technician, she has other goats, and has offered to possibly take him to see what she can do.  My other option was to return him to the breeder, but my husband said the 6+ hour transportation would be too hard on him, and if he came to us sick why send him back there.   I agree.  I have another vet appointment today to have him reevaluated.   Will let you all know what happens.  My other two goats remain well.   Happy, healthy, and getting chubby for winter.


----------



## NH homesteader

Thanks for the update. Sounds like your friend the vet  tech might be a good bet. Good luck at the vet! And glad to hear the others are doing great.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Has he been checked for external parasites?


----------



## Latestarter

I don't own goats yet so am NOT speaking from experience... just from what I've read/learned, not personal experience.  It seems you've covered the bases for internal parasites and the antibiotics should have taken care of any potential infections. The only other thing that comes to mind and I believe it's been discussed is mineral deficiency... selenium, copper, cobalt, and the other trace minerals that goats need... The only way to be 100% sure would be a blood mineral analysis. If the minerals are being provided and the goat is eating them, then that shouldn't be the issue either.

I don't want to sound mean or uncaring, & I'm not accusing or pointing fingers at the breeder (or you), but you may have been "stuck" with a goat that just wasn't "meant to be here"... Referred to as "failure to thrive" or other terms. There may be something physically wrong with the animal that just can't be "fixed". I am not sure if this only happens in very young/newborn animals, as I recall yours was born in July. I say this because parasites, internal or external, and viral or bacterial infections,would generally affect any other goats and the others aren't having any problems/issues. If I'm off base, I'm sure the pros will correct me here... Just something to consider... 

Since your friend the vet tech has offered to help and try to get him better, I'd say why not? Hoping for the best.


----------



## Hens and Roos

sorry to hear your little goat is still not feeling well


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Latestarter said:


> I don't own goats yet so am NOT speaking from experience... just from what I've read/learned, not personal experience.  It seems you've covered the bases for internal parasites and the antibiotics should have taken care of any potential infections. The only other thing that comes to mind and I believe it's been discussed is mineral deficiency... selenium, copper, cobalt, and the other trace minerals that goats need... The only way to be 100% sure would be a blood mineral analysis. If the minerals are being provided and the goat is eating them, then that shouldn't be the issue either.
> 
> I don't want to sound mean or uncaring, & I'm not accusing or pointing fingers at the breeder (or you), but you may have been "stuck" with a goat that just wasn't "meant to be here"... Referred to as "failure to thrive" or other terms. There may be something physically wrong with the animal that just can't be "fixed". I am not sure if this only happens in very young/newborn animals, as I recall yours was born in July. I say this because parasites, internal or external, and viral or bacterial infections,would generally affect any other goats and the others aren't having any problems/issues. If I'm off base, I'm sure the pros will correct me here... Just something to consider...
> 
> Since your friend the vet tech has offered to help and try to get him better, I'd say why not? Hoping for the best.


Yes, you can have a failure to thrive animal but it doesn't necessarily mean this animal is one.

The poster didn't say the counts for the cocci or parasites. If this goat had a very high load it will take time.

I mentioned external parasites… generally when the goat has internal parasites it will have external. Most goats have them, but you can have some that really don't handle it well. I know several farms that have goats that are more sensitive to external parasites.

This goat most likely had these issues before the poster purchased him. It can take time for things like external parasites to really show.

Now they may or may not have them, I thought it would be worth noting. I have seen goats become very unthrifty due to external parasites. Now add that with the other issues. I know quite a few folks that have had chickens die from external parasites before they figured out the cause.
It's unlikely that a goat will die from it. It can certainly slow them down and causes weight loss/inability to gain especially when the goat is facing other challenges. 

I do suspect there is a mineral/vitamin deficiency along with the other issues.

ETA: @Sara1226 sorry to hear you are going through a rough patch


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## Sara1226

Thank you for the replies.   I agree external parasites could have brought his condition down, but he was checked for those twice.. and there was nothing.   As mentioned, I do always put out a good quality goat mineral blend for free choice.. I HAD seen him eating it.  Although the doctor still believes a selenium deficiency COULD still be possible. 

So this is how the appointment went:
There was three of us there, my vet tech friend, the doctor, and myself.   We all agreed that even IF his genetic background was a smaller size, as the breeder claimed... he STILL should be growing and gaining weight.   He eats all day and his bones stick out!  The doctor listened to his lungs and heard what he called a friction sound.  
Given the fact that I have dewormed him several times, tried 2 different antibiotics, treated twice for cocci, gave probiotics, etc... I felt I did everything I could.   I DO believe it's very possible he has a defect, or that his parasites and cocci problems have caused so much damage he is struggling and will continue to struggle.  My vet friend has a heated shelter for him and has access to medications and testing abilities that I do not.  So she has taken him.  All three of us agree that he will go one of two ways now.. he will either make it or he won't.   Left here with me in my Unheated shelter in his underweight state and my awful well below zero winters I knew he wouldn't survive here.   I'm praying for him and he has a better chance with her.   I'm blessed to have a friend like her.   My other two are doing very well and I sure hope things are looking up now both for me AND my little rehomed goat.


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## Latestarter

I'm sure you're relieved and a better outcome at present, seems completely unlikely. I really hope he can "right" whatever is "wrong" and eventually blossom with the care of your vet tech friend. I'm really glad your other animals are healthy and thriving! I hope you'll stay with us and let us know the eventual outcome for the little guy. Nobody wants to, or enjoys losing an animal, for whatever reason.


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