# taming our LGD



## oweirdo (Mar 4, 2014)

The beginning of February we bought 2 LDG. They are sisters from the same mother and father but different litters, both mother and father are great pyrenees and Anatolia Shepherd mixes. dad looked more great pyrenees while mom was more Anatolian. Waylon the oldest is approximately 9 to 10 months old while Willie is aproximately 3 months old. Waylon is very skittish, we cannot walk to her she has to come to us. Sometimes she will come to us and sniff us, sometimes we can pet her then, other time she smells us and runs, and sometimes she's playful with us. We see the same traits and Willie, although her being younger she will let us pet her a lot.
 From what I've read I understand these are good traits for these braids because they are guardians for the animals and not pets for us. However the problem lies in we cannot teach Waylon hardly any commands. She jumped over the fence after some fireworks were set off and it is taking us three days to regain her trust. And we still don't fully have it back, anytime we walked towards her she runs to the fence. I don't want her teaching her younger sister these bad habits so we are trying to enforce with the younger one that we are her friend. However Waylon being the oldest is much better with our goats, Willie still wants to play with them. 
When we got Waylon and Willie we bought them from a lady who had about 50 too many dogs, I don't think they were ever socialize with people. Neither had ever had a collar on, much less been trained. Within the first few days they had both learned the boundaries of our land, even though we didn't have a fence on one side. She never left our yard, but since the fireworks scared her so bad we can't hardly keep her in our yard.
I guess my question is how do we get her to trust us enough to let us walk up to her, interact, teach commands, yet keep her with the livestock a hundred percent of the time? now that a few days have passed after the fireworks she seems to have calmed down a lot. Sunday she wouldn't even stay in our fence Monday she would jump over but come back after a few minutes. Today I haven't seen her over  the fence, she's stayed with the goats


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

> both mother and father are great pyrenees and Anatolia Shepherd mixes.


Is there a possibility the parents are litter mates and pups are inbred?



> From what I've read I understand these are good traits for these braids because they are guardians for the animals and not pets for us



No these are not good traits. For many years the premise was put them in the field and don't touch them or they won't be good guardians and will not bond with the animals.

None of that is true and has actually led to serious issues with LGD's. That failed theory came from Ray Coppinger. 



> Waylon the oldest is approximately 9 to 10 months old while Willie is aproximately 3 months old. Waylon is very skittish, we cannot walk to her she has to come to us. Sometimes she will come to us and sniff us, sometimes we can pet her then, other time she smells us and runs, and sometimes she's playful with us. We see the same traits and Willie, although her being younger she will let us pet her a lot.





> She jumped over the fence after some fireworks were set off and it is taking us three days to regain her trust



Obviously it is impossible to evaluate a dog based on a paragraph but the older dog IMO is not showing to be a very stable dog. She clearly would not pass a noise test.  You are doing the right thing by slowly gaining trust. A key factor here is to work with that younger pup. Play with her (outside livestock areas), pet her, love her. start getting her use to a lead and walking her, teach basic commands etc. The older one may come around just by watching. The older one seems very fearful and this is never a good thing to see in a LGD.  She will more than likely run off in thunderstorms too. 
You have a better chance of working with the younger pup and hopefully she will be more stable.

Good that the older is doing well with the goats. The issue bois down to if she starts chasing or goes after a kid at kidding will you be able to get a hold of her or even correct her. This is an iffy dog.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

BTW- Welcome to BYH!


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## oweirdo (Mar 4, 2014)

she was just fine during the thunderstorms and ice storms. shes fine with the neighbors shooting ( which they do way to much) shes even great with the kids. she watches over them, and they can pet her. just not us, me more than my Dh


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

Have you sat on the ground and called her over? Will she come to you if you are down low?

The Lady who had her.... what did you get from her ? What was she like? the environment? where were the dogs kept?


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## oweirdo (Mar 4, 2014)

and thank you! if she killed a kid (not human) i would think theres only so many options. none too happy


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## oweirdo (Mar 4, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Have you sat on the ground and called her over? Will she come to you if you are down low?
> 
> The Lady who had her.... what did you get from her ? What was she like? the environment? where were the dogs kept?


she was a lonely old bat. about 50 little breed dogs , then 2 parents, 3 older pups and 4-6  little pups. they were all feed in one bowl, pecking order feed. The other animals there were pretty thin,horses, donkey,goats.
 not well adjusted. Serious emotional abuse! 
She has been accepting of the new animals, chickens, the added goats. I did work with Willie, on sit, lay down, and come. She loved all that, picked up quick.


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## meme (Mar 5, 2014)

Welcome.  I haven't had time to read through the entire thread, but that woman you got them from is a hoarder and needs to be turned in if she hasn't been already. Those poor animals.


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## oweirdo (Mar 6, 2014)

Waylon loved the beef jerky treats, smeared with pb, I had back here for 2 days. Fixed one fence, but she found another way out. I can't let her show this to Willie, but Willie is to young to protect by herself. I'm hoping to find another older LGD. And, I guess, find Waylon another home


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## Southern by choice (Mar 6, 2014)

Sorry I have forgotten... do you have any hot-wire or tape up?
You have had them for such a short period of time, she may come around just might take time.
I forgoyt what kind of fencing do you have?


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## oweirdo (Mar 6, 2014)

Our 4 acres has 4x4 square fence, with 2-3 layers of barbed wire around 2 sides, no barbed wire around the other two. But one is by the dirt road, and she stays away from there, for now  once I repaired the downed barbed wire, she did stop jumping that fence. But I really dislike that wire.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 6, 2014)

IMO tear down all the barbed wire it is nasty and dangerous for dogs goats and sheep if it is on the inside. Having hotwire at the top and bottom of the fence (single strand) works very well.
Where is she going and what does she do once she gets out?


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## oweirdo (Mar 7, 2014)

just next door, to their pasture. She is still watching everything.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Waylon is very skittish, we cannot walk to her she has to come to us. Sometimes she will come to us and sniff us, sometimes we can pet her then, other time she smells us and runs, and sometimes she's playful with us. We see the same traits and Willie, although her being younger she will let us pet her a lot.

>> Firstly with any LGD it is better to start them off in the home.  Most LDGs have many different kinds of bonds that effect how they treat people.  From what it seems to me is the bonds have not set yet.   I would bring them in house, get them used to the family, lots of cuddles, positive reinforcement training, treats, fun, but also with firmness.  Once they are used to you, give it a little more time after that - 2 weeks, then they go out with the herd.  You stay with them the first few weeks and only during the day while supervised.  Some breeds / and some dogs (each has his/her own personality) don't need long with supervision, so play it by ear.  If they chase use a tire on a rope to slow them down.  Constant correction is needed during this time, they should learn quickly, it is in their blood.

From what I've read I understand these are good traits for these braids because they are guardians for the animals and not pets for us.

>> tbh they should be both   Most guardians need human love and affection.  I am really not in favour of this separation of herd guardian and family pet.  Almost every breed has "family instincts" as well.  They need human interaction and love to thrive.  Please reconsider this.  You will get much more out of your dogs if you do trips away with them, let them spend time in the house sometimes, play with the family (with care ofc, they are guardians so if you have kids and their friends come around the dogs should not even be in viewing distance.  A lot of guardians will see another unknown outside-family child as a threat if they watch some ruff housing and they rarely forget, and thus accidents happen.  The dog figures out a way to get to the threat a few weeks later)

However the problem lies in we cannot teach Waylon hardly any commands. She jumped over the fence after some fireworks were set off and it is taking us three days to regain her trust. And we still don't fully have it back, anytime we walked towards her she runs to the fence.

>> Guardians don't like strangers.   Without a bond and dominance with/from you he/she will ignore you in part or completely.  Build the bond first and then the commands will come, although slowly, guardian breeds are self-thinkers and can take some time to train.  One problem with Guardian breeds is they "fear" their owners sometimes.  They can't use their protective instincts, they get confused, are you family or not, etc ....  If I get really angry with my male he sometimes pees  He is 90 kgs CO and has been bite checked a year ago.  The chap who bite checked him is a trainer for the US border patrol dogs and was scared out of his mind, nearly had his face ripped off, thank god for protective suits.  So you have a dichotomy with LGDs.  Don't worry about it, he just needs to feel at ease with you and family, give him time inside the house, walks and family outings.  And no harsh words if you can.  Be very gentle with them.  You can overwhelm guardian breed easily.  Consider that most were genetically controlled in the harshest manner.  In ancient times Villagers and Shepherds would kill any dog that showed heavy aggression or bit villagers.  So you can understand a little of their nervousness when in new environments.

I don't want her teaching her younger sister these bad habits so we are trying to enforce with the younger one that we are her friend.

>>  This is not usually an issue depending on the dog.  They tend to have their own instincts and don't learn much from other dogs the same age.  they will look to you for guidance.

However Waylon being the oldest is much better with our goats, Willie still wants to play with them.

>> tire and rope

When we got Waylon and Willie we bought them from a lady who had about 50 too many dogs, I don't think they were ever socialize with people.

>>  Kennel puppies can be difficult but rarely a complete loss.

Neither had ever had a collar on, much less been trained. Within the first few days they had both learned the boundaries of our land, even though we didn't have a fence on one side.

>>  you have good guardians, be happy

She never left our yard, but since the fireworks scared her so bad we can't hardly keep her in our yard.

>> they grow out of fears usually.  Guardians tend to mature slower as they are longer lived than most large breeds.  Tie her in the yard for a few days, play with her there, feed her there, lots of positive associative experience will make the area a "safe" place.

I guess my question is how do we get her to trust us enough to let us walk up to her, interact, teach commands, yet keep her with the livestock a hundred percent of the time?

>> bond first.  always.  get her used to her new owners.  lots and lots of cuddles  Act like there is nothing to fear she will respond to your smell emotion.  Bring her in the house, get her used to it, don't go up to her let her come to you for the first few days, then start bring her treats when you walk up to her.


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## oweirdo (Mar 25, 2014)

I understand what your saying. BUT I can't interact with her, at all! I can't pet her, touch her, nothing. I have been trying to, there is no tie to us for her. Only to the goats. I really love this dog, and want her as family but she's so far out and doesn't want us. Now she feels like a stray dog that watchs us warily, and cares for the goats.
Her food aggression is much worse than I thought. She is aggressive with the goats, if they happen to be by her food. She won't let her sister eat..... Arhhhhhh, I'm trying to be patient with her, but I'm the only one on her side now. After she got aggressive with the goats my DH is ready to end this relationship. I should have known from that first meeting it would not have worked well


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Bring her into the house.  Don't let her stay with the stock at all.  She will bond with you over a few weeks some dogs take a few months.  Most guardians are dangerously food jealous, this must be trained out of them early, taking their food away in the middle of the meal, making them sit and wait for it, then again making them move away and wait then letting them go to the food again. All family members must touch the food while they eat on a regular basis.  Then transference must occur with the herd, let them eat their favourite bone or meat with the herd, any aggression on the meal is taken  away with lots of forceful negative correction.  This is actually paramount when you have LGD, especially with kids, as one day food gets thrown on the floor child goes to pick it up in front of the dog, etc ... bad karma :
Same goes with her sister, they should be trained to eat together.  We take huge amount of effort on this one point with our COs, my son can now take a bloody, meaty bone away from the male while he wages his tail and snuggles my son.   One of the difficulties of having guardians is that although many breeds show symptoms of food aggression, guardians tend to be ten times worse & one of the few times they will actually warn bite their owners. 

One thing is don't give up on her.  Please.  Guardians are majestic in character and honourable and don't deserve to be thrown away because of issues that might be just because we failed to treat them correctly.


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## oweirdo (Mar 25, 2014)

we can take her food, no problem, she runs from her food as soon as we come. its other animals. And I cant get her inside anywhere.  She won't even go into the open goat shed.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Pick her up, take her inside.... she is a puppy no? 
Keep her in the room you are in.  You can even take her around with you on the lead.  Spend as much time inside or on the lead with her as possible, might be toilet issues at the beginning, but should be short lived.  You need to spend time with her constantly, no punishment no anger, just gentle coaxing with lots of patience she will come around.  A night let her sleep in your bedroom, let her get used to your smell, make a bed put your smelly socks in their with her, etc ...  and let her come to you for the first few days, if she doesn't start then get down on the floor with her, turn her on her back and stroke her tummy while she lies between your legs.  Be gentle and loving and she will realise there is nothing to fear eventually.

Food note the transference comment above in the previous post.

It might seem hard at the beginning and no progress, but eventually 99.9999% of dogs will suddenly or gradually respond to the treatment.

Send her to me for a few weeks   after playing with my two she will fear very little , also they will teach her some food manners  (although I am in Sweden atm, so think ti is not possible)


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## Southern by choice (Mar 25, 2014)

Although I absolutely agree with doing all you can and I also agree these are not throw-away dogs but there are some dogs that are simply not sound. 

Not everyone can rehabilitate and the owners abilities do need to be taken into consideration. I suspect there may also have been severe inbreeding at the kennel where she came from, that also poses some issues. Of course we are all here to help in whatever way we can but sometimes evaluating over the forum can bee a bit counterproductive. Do you have anyone in your region that assesses LGD's? This sounds like an on site eval is necessary. 

Very few in the training world actually know how to evaluate LGD's. Some dogs really can be born neurotic, unstable, unsound. She would have been better in a different environment.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Don;t you think it is just the dog was too old when brought home maybe?  After six months tends to get harder to bond anyway and with their upbringing even worse.  I think, although I agree onsite eval would be much better, it is just change anxiety & late bonding.  I think bond reinforcement is truly your best bet.  Please keep us updated I am very curious on how it turns out. 

"Some dogs really can be born neurotic, unstable, unsound. She would have been better in a different environment"  true, but I think most can be fixed with effort, unlike humans, or at least they are a lot easier


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## oweirdo (Mar 25, 2014)

she was 6-7 months when we got her, now she's 8-9. 75-80 lbs and wild from day one. Two months of trying every day, talking coaxing, hand feeding, trying to earn trust. What really scares us, the kids can walk up to her, she seems to trust them somewhat. They can't really pet her.
 Today she attacked our weenie dog, Waylon had Lola by the throat and was shaking her. Plus killed a chicken.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

I would take Southern's advice on this one then.  
Or get someone in who knows the breed well enough to rehab her, or try at least.


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## Beekissed (Apr 6, 2014)

I was just given a 3 yr old GP, male, intact, that has not been socialized at all.  He's huge and his neck is desensitized due to being tied with a choke chain attached to a huge, heavy chain.  He's friendly but nearly out of his mind from inactivity, loneliness and just having had no rules, attention or proper socialization with animals or humans.  

I think I may be able to work with him on this but I'll have to see.  The owner said he was aggressive towards other male dogs but I think it has to do with poor social skills...it took all of a few seconds for Jake to put him in his place about this dominant behavior...and Jake is not a dominant dog at all.  

If we keep him he will be neutered and that will help him focus and socialize better but I think this will be a long haul before I trust him around the chickens, humans, etc.  He's just so big and jumps up on people, doesn't come to his name and has had no obedience training whatsoever.  

Southern by Choice, where would you begin on such an animal...and I mean, the very first place?  I was going to do some leash and walk training to get him used to me and my position over him, show him the boundaries and also work on basic sit command and on his jumping up...that's got to go...my Mom is a little woman and he can knock her right over.  I'll be using food as a training tool for some things if he turns out to be food motivated.  I'm going to clip his neck down so that he can feel a correction with the choke, but I'm not sure if that will help.

Any suggestions and help would be appreciated.  Since this is the wild LGD thread and this one is wild, I thought I would post this here.


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## oweirdo (Apr 12, 2014)

we finally gave up :'( after she attacked a goat who got to close to her food, and she pinned our weenie dog and had her by the throat, shaking her. We found someone who had no other dogs, had experience and time. I was worried a small child could have been next.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm sorry you had to give her up  Sounds like you did your best


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