# Oh, man... I'm hoping it's just **UPDATE 2** 2 are relapsing??



## Holachicka (Jul 11, 2010)

Ok, So please don't flay me alive... I am a newbie, and thought I knew what I was doing after lots of research online... I bought 4 baby goats today, one alpine, 3 months old, one lamancha, three months old, and two toggenburgs 5 months old.

When we went to check them out, they seemed perfectly fine, no coughing, no runny nose, no diarrhiea. Only seemed a little thin to me as I can feel their ribs and backbone. (is that normal or thin?) after about a two hour drive to get back home, we put them in the pen, it was already dark. We went to check on them and discovered...

ALL of them are coughing, and have runny noses. the are all filthy now because of the ride home in dog kennels. My main concern is that the cough sounds like a wet cough ( I hear flem?) and the runny nose, I have to assume is clear, but tinged green from the alfalfa they were eating. 

What can I do for them? what could it be? It was a hot day, could it be heat stress? All but one has had their first vaccinations. I'm hoping for some advice!!

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2010)

It *could* be stress.

Temps?

If it was me, I'd get them started on DiMethox asap, it treats both shipping fever and coccidia...
I'd also probably give them all ProBios for a day or so.

I would find a vet Monday and take a fecal sample in, to find out if / what worms they have.

Get their vaccinations up to date as soon as all are well again.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks Roll,

I went to the feed store and they made some calls on my behalf, and I ended up coming home with a wormer for goats, corid and probios. $60 just to give them a chance to live! How much probios and how often? We lost the weakest one this morning and I realized that they are crawling with tiney black bugs, Mites or lice? what can I use for that? The lady I bought them from now seems o be avoiding my phone calls. I'm pretty upset, I think she knew she was selling me sick goats. I feel worse for my children.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 12, 2010)

CoRid -- I'd take it back.  I've never heard of anyone having good luck with CoRid.  Swap it for 'Sulmet', a bottle of Penicillin, some 6ml syringes and 18 or 20ga needles.  The "dewormer for goats" is almost certainly Safe-Guard 10% suspension...it'll do for now.

Drench them with Sulmet at whatever rate provides 125mg of the medication to every 5lbs of bodyweight, and continue this once a day for about a week.  That will help with coccidiosis.

The dosage on Penicillin is 1ml/15lbs of bodyweight, 2x/day for 7-10 days.  It works best through an 18ga needle, but a 20ga will work if that's all you can stomach.  Do NOT use a 22ga needle -- the Penicillin particles are too big to flow through the needle, so you wind up injecting mostly carrier and not enough actual med.  The Penicillin should help with respiratory infections.

If it was indeed Safe-Guard that you got, *triple* the label dosage and give it for three days in a row.  Yeah, you read that correctly -- you're going to give a total of 9x the amount it says to give on the label.  Sounds nuts?  I know...welcome to the world of goat ownership.

As for the external parasites...those are lice.  Personally, I prefer injecting ivermectin (Ivomec) for external parasites, though some folks have good luck giving the injectable as a drench (orally) to deworm _and_ kill externals.  Something else that's a bit less invasive (they're going through A LOT right now already) is an insecticidal dust like PyThon..  They're young and probably still relatively small right now, which means they could be dusted pretty thoroughly.  If you don't want to stick them again or put something else down their throats, you could try dusting them...  The dust is pretty cheap, too, versus close to $40 for a 50ml vial of Ivomec.

Sorry you lost one already..    Hopefully we can all put our heads together to get the others worked out.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 12, 2010)

Shoot. I'm in CA and they won't sell me syringes unless I go to a vet. My dad might have some onhand for his horse, I'll have to give him a call. I already opened the bottle of Corid, I can't take it back now. I'll just see if I can get my hands on some penicillin. would it hurt to do both? What I did was fill up a baby bottle with the corid water mix one tsp per gallon, and gave that to them, the two older ones were too busy munching on hay, so I'll try them again later, but the 3 month old (now the weakest) drank two 5 oz bottles of it (I added a tsp of sugar). I have no probs giving shots, Just don't know where on a goat to do it. I've done it many times for dogs. Let me go find out what I have as a wormer. the weak one really seems to have perked up after the probios, got up and ate the alfalfa heartily. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but am really concerned.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 12, 2010)

It is safe guard 10%. I'll go give them a double dose now, and triple tomorrow and the next day. Waiting for my dad to get back to me on the syringe. Is the measurements for the corid correct at 1 tsp per gallon? anyone know if it would hurt to give corid and penicillin? And how much probios(oral) and how many times a day?

I really appreciate all the help I'm getting here!


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 12, 2010)

Ok, DH picked up syringes and penicillin (No, they are not illegal to sell in CA, Won't be going to my local feed store again) It's on the way. We're just trying to work something out with lice control. Ivomec is too explensive for us, and he's running around town for some sort of insectacidal dust... they are small. I'll have to attempt to post a pick. Any other good brands? anyone ever use sevin or DE? I won't unless someone has direct positive experience...


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 12, 2010)

I have used 7 dust on goats in the past...it won't hurt them.

You asked to not be flayed alive in the first post, and I won't...but a 30$ bottle of ivomec may be NECESSARY to save the goats.  There's no 'nice' way to say this...but...should they die b/c you can't afford their meds?

They (goats) don't get any cheaper....jes sayin'.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 12, 2010)

, you're not being not-nice, I was asking to not be flayed alive for not being able to recognize sick goats... If the ivomec will save their lives, we'd do it, but it seems that a serious case of worms or cocci is more likely the case, and if sevin dust or another dust would work just as well, and cheaper, that is what we are going for. We are spending money we don't have and looking for alternatives, but are doing our best to save them. Would sevin dust do the trick?

Also, can you let me know about the dosage and frequency of the probios? It seemed to help, and I really want to get it right for them!

The weakest is looking a lot less wobbly, but I still don't know...

We are also making a log of phone calls, pics and videos of the goats, and if the seller keeps avoiding us, we will be taking action... she is not taking care of her animals if they are this sick, to die within a day and a half, I really think the responsibilty lies with her and that animal control, ASPCA, and a few other animal protection services should get involved for the sake of her animals.


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 12, 2010)

Ivomec may well be the best dewormer you'll have access to, and the rest (of the good ones) cost more.

Ivomec is also the best thing I've found for bugs / mites...the 7 dust will knock 'em off, but they'll come right back unless you dust them daily.  Ivomec kills them when they bite.

Without a fecal to *know* if it's worms or cocci, and w/ the added lice problem...well, I'd give 'em 1 cc per 25# of ivomec.  Repeat in 7 days, then again in 14.  
(Actually, if it was me, I'd probably dust them w/ 7 AND give 'em ivomec....creepy crawlies give me the willies.)

Probios, I give them a pinkie finger tip full 1x a day for 2-3 days...generally that'll get enough of the 'good' bugs into them to do the trick, if it's going to.

I'd be more concerned getting some B vitamin in them ASAP...corid works by inhibiting B vitamin absorption, which is what cocci feed off of.  In their weak state, they need all the B they can get.

That's why I suggested DiMethox (sulmet) originally...it's not only an old-time cure for shipping fever, it ALSO treats cocci w/out messing up their vitamin absorption...and doesn't have to be injected.  Just for future reference...

Also, this is JMHO, you should probably mix the corid stronger and drench them w/ it, rather than give them a lot of it in a weaker solution.  It'll hit harder / faster and not take up so much tummy room meant for food.
I can't tell you the dosage (since I don't use it), maybe someone else here knows.


----------



## helmstead (Jul 12, 2010)

Just a note...CoRid does work against cocci...but in HIGH doses.  BUT giving B complex at the same time will void the effect...so you shouldn't bolus with B while working with CoRid.

We have used CoRid _in conjunction _with DiMethox when we have had particularly tough runs with cocci.  Even at the extremely high dosages needed for the CoRid to work - we have never had thiamine deficiency issues from the B inhibitor.  Down south, where we're from...Sulmet is no longer effective against cocci - most strains are resistant.  Guess it all depends on your region.

Also, Roll...Sulmet and DiMethox are NOT the same drug!
*Sulmet = Sodium Sulfamethazine 
DiMethox (Albon) = Sulfadimethoxine*

Happy little addition is that the fenbendazole (Safe Guard), while somewhat weak against worms, is used frequently as an antiprotozoal against cocci (again, _in conjunction with _a sulfa drug!)...so giving the 3x recommended dose will also help kill off the cocci.

CyLence also works great against lice, but I agree with Roll on going forward with the ivermec.

Don't go postal on the breeder.  While they _might_ have been lax in care or might not have...young goats can 'go' fast from the slightest change.  They might have been perfectly fine at their farm, and the simple change of location was enough stress for them to fall ill.  A windy ride in the back of a truck for instance, in the chilled evening...and boom, shipping sickness.

Good luck!  Keep at it!


----------



## FarmerDenise (Jul 12, 2010)

You can give your goats yogurt or kefir too (just make sure it is unsweetened and has live cultures in it). These are probiotics and help the digestive tract. When my baby goats were sick the vet also suggested electrolites. I get the ones in an envelope for around $5, they have vitamins in them too. The goats like it. I feed it to them in their bottles.

I am a newbie too. Consider it a nasty lesson learned. I did! 
I certainly know what NOT to do next time.


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 13, 2010)

> Just a note...CoRid does work against cocci...but in HIGH doses.  BUT giving B complex at the same time will void the effect...so you shouldn't bolus with B while working with CoRid.


See, you can learn something new every day...I give them extra b while treating w/ sulmet, but it makes perfect sense not to when treating w/ Corid.  Honestly I never pondered it much since I don't use it.



> Also, Roll...Sulmet and DiMethox are NOT the same drug!


I know Sulmet and DiMeth are different, but they're (sort of) the same class (sulfa) drug, my point was "use something different from Corid"...trying to simplify my post....my bad.

I don't use Sulmet, I use DiMethox...but Sulmet is more common at feed stores, at least around here.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 13, 2010)

Dosage for 9.6% Corid (5 day treatment, not 21 day prevention) is 1 mL per 21 lbs of body weight daily for 5 days.


----------



## helmstead (Jul 13, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Dosage for 9.6% Corid (5 day treatment, not 21 day prevention) is 1 mL per 21 lbs of body weight daily for 5 days.


Not even close.  Remember I said extrememly high doseage?  It's 6 1/4 cc per 25 lb, used undiluted right from the bottle, for 5 days.

Roll, yes you generally have to order DiMethox or beg a vet for Albon.  I never even bother recommending Sulmet anymore.  The corid _will_ work...at the above dosage...and IMO is better than Sulmet.

But then we get back to the fact that we're not just dealing with cocci here, more than likely...which is prolly why you wanted a sulfa...but the Pen will cover that.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 13, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, well I was going off the dosage on the label.


----------



## helmstead (Jul 13, 2010)

Yeah you have to do off label use...or else it just doesn't cut the mustard.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks a bunch! Got up this morning at 5 am to give shots and meds, because I had to leave at 6:30, THAT is dedication!  I really hope they all make it. They are all so sweet, I poke them, shove things down their throats, make them eat nasty stuff, and they wag their little tails and love on me the whole time, when I'm done they look at me like, where are you going? don't leave! I'll start the heavy doseage of corid as soon as I get home. I'll be picking up the Ivomec today as well. I hope all of this works. 

I've been trying to give the seller a chance, but she's not returning my phone calls and I am being very polite when I call, I don't plan on ripping her head off, but they were very thin and I'm certain she was not caring for them properly. I also want her to know that she needs to check and treat her other goats. with her avoiding me, it makes me think she knew they were sick.


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 13, 2010)

I get a lot of comments such as "I don't register mine until they're 9-12 mos old and I'm sure they'll live." or "I hate bottle babies, they always die on me." and it stumps me...our kids do very well, and since I got cocci under control, none have died in over...6 years I guess....

The part of it that amazes me is that the people who make these comments to me, don't seem to want to FIX what's killing their kids, like 'oh well, it's just part of it.'


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 13, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Yeah you have to do off label use...or else it just doesn't cut the mustard.


No wonder, I just looked again and the dosage on the label is for calves and not goats.  Duh.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 13, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Ivomec may well be the best dewormer you'll have access to, and the rest (of the good ones) cost more.
> 
> Ivomec is also the best thing I've found for bugs / mites...the 7 dust will knock 'em off, but they'll come right back unless you dust them daily.  Ivomec kills them when they bite.
> 
> ...


Is the dosage for the ivomec for the injectable? I just bought Ivermectin 1% sterile solution + 3 more syringes, What dosage for mL's should I use? I'll be doing this as soon as I get home. AND dusting, (they give me the creeps too, I took three showers yesterday!)


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 13, 2010)

Ok, so...there are two schools of thought here w/ respect to using Ivomec for internal _and_ external parasites..

What we know is that if you inject Ivomec, it does nothing for internal parasites (worms) but it will be effective against external parasites.

In order to treat for internal parasites, it's generally accepted that you use it orally -- draw it up out of the vial, remove the needle from the syringe, and squirt the contents of the syringe down their throats.  

So that much, we know...which sorta makes it sound like an either/or situation.  As in, you either inject it SQ for external parasites, or you use it orally for internal parasites, but neither way works for *both.*

That "either/or" is one of the two schools of thought.

The other school of thought is that Ivomec, given orally, will treat both internal parasites AND external parasites, and that you kinda get a "two-fer" deal out of it.

I've personally seen examples where people have dosed it orally to treat for mites, and it did _nothing_.  Once injected, however, it worked..  That's with mites, though, and mites are considerably tougher little boogers than lice.

That said, I've also seen examples of goats who weren't necessarily considered candidates for lice who slicked WAY up after dosing orally with Ivomec...suggesting that maybe there was an unexpected "two-fer" effect that killed lice which hadn't even been considered.

Personally, I don't know which school of thought is correct.

In this situation, however...IF I WERE YOU...I'd use it orally.  Reason being, you're dusting them, and we know dusting works against lice.  Dusting may not necessarily be a good long-term solution, but the way I see it, you've kinda got the lice situation covered _for now_ with the dust.

The question then becomes...which parasite is of greater clinical significance right now:  lice, or worms?  

Answer -- WORMS, hands down.  Lice are gross, ya, but they're not NEARLY so pathogenic as worms.  

Therefore, the best use of the Ivomec you now have on hand -- in my opinion -- is _definitely_ to treat for the worms.  If you dose it orally for worms and it also helps you out on the lice, fantastic...if not, oh well...you can always _inject_ some of it later.

So, that's how I'm seeing it.

The deworming dosage I've been using for Ivomec 1% injectable is 1ml/25lbs of bodyweight, given _orally_.  

If I were you, that's what I'd do.


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 13, 2010)

Yep, what he said, dosage-wise.

And CM, I didn't take a sample in to tell me which creepy crawly it was, but when the goats here got leg mites last year, giving them ivo orally cleared it up.  I've never injected 'em w/ ivomec...prolly the one thing I haven't done w/ it.

(I give it to my dogs for heartworm prev, my cats for ear mites (topically) and orally for worms, my ferret, my cavy, my poultry...etc.etc.)


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 14, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> when the goats here got leg mites last year, giving them ivo orally cleared it up.  I've never injected 'em w/ ivomec...prolly the one thing I haven't done w/ it.


Hmm...well, that makes 1-for, 1-against in terms of what I've read on actual experience.  

I dunno.  

Either way, if I were the OP, I'd be giving it orally _for sure_ in this situation.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 14, 2010)

Should I stop the other wormer if I am going to give the Ivo orally? Is it a one time dose, or do I give it to them for a few days? I dusted them last night, but I am concerned that they may be anemic because of the lice, would it be safe to give the ivo both orally and injected? If it's a good idea, does anyone know the dosage for injecting? 

On a side note, the seller returned my phone call, left me a message, and I haven't had a chance to call her back yet, but at least I know she's not avoiding me!


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 14, 2010)

I'd give them ivo orally and repeat in a week.  If you've already dusted, it should take care of any 'stragglers'....and get rid of the worms, to boot.

The other wormer, safeguard, is really safe, and IMHO, ivo is too....so it won't hurt to give them ivo so soon after safeguard.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 14, 2010)

Holachicka said:
			
		

> Should I stop the other wormer if I am going to give the Ivo orally?


We'll get to this in a minute...



> Is it a one time dose, or do I give it to them for a few days?


Generally, Ivomec is a one time dose...for the most part.

Lots of folks will re-treat at a certain point past the initial dosage, and the interval really just depends on whom you ask...I've personally heard 10 days, 14 days, 15 days, 21 days, and 28 days.  Like I said...just depends on who you ask.

But it's generally not considered a 'several days in a row' thing.



> I dusted them last night, but I am concerned that they may be anemic because of the lice


What makes you suspicious that they're anemic?  



> would it be safe to give the ivo both orally and injected? If it's a good idea, does anyone know the dosage for injecting?


I've never heard of it done that way, but I've considered doing that very thing myself.  I don't _think_ it would hurt anything, but I dunno, and I can't advise you to go guinea piggin' on your goats with so little goat experience.

For now, I'd definitely recommend just sticking to the oral dosage.

OK, so...back to this:



			
				Holachicka said:
			
		

> Should I stop the other wormer if I am going to give the Ivo orally?


That kinda depends on how bad off the goats are right now, in terms of anemia..  You mentioned that you suspected anemia earlier, but thought it could be the lice; could be, but it's probably not.  Most likely, it's a nematode called _haemonchus contortus_, a.k.a., "barberpole" worms.  Given their VORACIOUS appetite for blood, barberpoles are -- by far -- the most pathogenic of all worms.  Barberpoles will kill a goat dead if they're allowed to get out of control.  And they're VERY, VERY, VERY common.  Based on what I've read in numerous places, barberpoles generally account for 80%+ of the total worm burden in necropsied goats.

Now, here's where it gets tricky...  

If your goats are just a bit anemic (inner lower eyelids obviously pink, but not dark pink or near-red), I'd personally recommend finishing up the third day of Safe Guard and then hitting them with Ivomec later.  I might personally even give it a week or 10 days later in this case, provided their eyelids are pretty pink and don't get any more pale in the interval.

If their eyelids are obviously pink but the lice are still hanging around despite the dusting, I might finish the 3rd day of Safe Guard and do the Ivomec on day 4, just to rid them of the lice.

If their eyelids are just kinda vaguely pink_ish_, then I'd probably skip the last of the Safe Guard and do the ivomec right away.

If their eyelids are white or nearly white...well, that's where it gets REALLY tricky.  Some folks will tell you to stay away from of Ivomec, Cydectin, Levasole, or any other 'stronger' dewormer for fear of killing a bunch of worms all at once and 'unplugging' a lot of holes in the abomasum..  The idea is that, with the blood already that thin, it's going to simply _run out_ of those holes faster than the barberpoles would have sucked it out and the goat's going to get _worse_ -- not better.  

And that absolutely _can_ happen.

The recommendation I've seen most often in cases where anemia is noted to that extent is to continue them on 'mild' dewormer (like Safe Guard) for a prolonged period of time, coupled with a product called Red Cell..  Red Cell contains a lot of iron (and selenium, and copper, and zinc, and all kinds of other minerals) and does a pretty good job at treating anemia.  After a certain period of time on such a protocol (one week, 10 days, two weeks -- again, depends on who you ask...) THEN you use a stronger dewormer.  

Having said that, there are a lot of people who will tell you -- straight up -- that when they're eyelids are almost white, you'd better knock the crap out of them with the strongest thing you've got and do it RIGHT NOW or they're dead, and that you really only need to worry about 'unplugging' too many holes when they've progressed to the point of bottlejaw.

Like I said...it can be a tricky situation, and it really all depends on how anemic they are at the moment according to how red/pink/white their eyelids are and whether or not they have any bottlejaw or anything like that.

Personally...I don't consider Ivomec to be so strong that I'd worry much about unplugging too many holes.  In my situation, Ivomec -- while still relatively affective against barberpoles _for me _-- still isn't _superduper_ effective.  But that's _me_, and that's for _my area _and _my herd_...which is to say, _my barberpoles_. 

Your barberpoles may be stouter -- or weaker -- than mine.  

Maybe someone else will chime in here and say "do this/that/the other" and I'm usually not terribly shy about doing that myself, but...I dunno...this situation just seems especially subjective for some reason..  New goats, new goat owner/'doctorer', very little history on the animals, etc.  

So, I've laid out what I feel are the most likely scenarios and what I'd do in each, and I'll leave it to you to decide..



> On a side note, the seller returned my phone call, left me a message, and I haven't had a chance to call her back yet, but at least I know she's not avoiding me!


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 14, 2010)

I would say if you could talk to someone in your area. Either a goat knowledgable vet or a knowledgable goat breeder on what dewormers work in your particular area and at what dose. 

Safeguard works in my area at 1cc per 10 pounds. May need to to use more or less in your area.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 15, 2010)

I gave them the ivomec orally yesterday, their eyelids were slightly pinkish, so I felt comfortable. I just figured with all the blood suckers they had on them that they were probably aneimic, and they were. But apparently this was from those nasty worms!

I can't thank you guys enough, you have literally been life savers, I don't know what I would have done without you! This morning, I went out and they are all looking so much better, and starting to put on some weight!! Hooray!!

EVEN BETTER I got ahold of the seller and she was so upset to know the goats I bought were sick. she is really concerned that her other goats are sick too, and I told her about all the treatments for different illnesses that I was treating. I told her about this site, and apologised for thinking poorly of her, she really is a good person! She is doing what she can to make things right for all of us!


----------



## glenolam (Jul 15, 2010)

Glad to hear she's stepping up!


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2010)

Sounds like good news, all around.  

With slight pink lids, drenching injectable ivomec right now was a good idea.

If you wanted, to kinda 'kick start' them along, you might see if you can find a tack & saddle store nearby that carries a product called "Red Cell."  Mostly it comes in gallons, but it can be found in quarts too.  Most of the online supply houses carry it in quarts, actually, and it's not terribly expensive.  Jeffers livestock has quarts for $6.19, for instance.

Not only is it good for anemia, but it also contains lots of good vitamins and minerals.  It's for horses, but horses and goats seem to actually have similar mineral requirements...both need copper, both need selenium, etc.  The most common dosage I've seen on Red Cell for adults is 15ml/head, 1x/day for a week straight.  I figure that maybe works out to be about 1ml/10lbs or so...

Just something to consider, especially if your new goats' loose mineral situation was sketchy...  A weeks worth might go a long way toward getting them back on track.  I used it with pretty good results in a few of mine not so long ago.

Also...I see you're in Florida.  Certain areas of Florida (most, I think, but ask around) are selenium deficient..  There's a product called Bo-Se that's Selenium and Vit. E. that may be beneficial to you.  We Bo-Se at least once a year here, and newborn kids seem to benefit from about 1/2ml at birth..  There are also Selenium and Vit. E. gels, available over the counter, that can be given orally..  If you're in a selenium deficient area and these kids' mama(s) weren't given supplemental Selenium about a month before kidding, they could probably stand some.

Sorry...I know that's a lot, but I'm just trying to think of everything that might help right now.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 15, 2010)

Lol, Nope, I'm on the other coast in sunny CA...  Please don't apologise, It not too much, I really want to help these babies thrive.

How much selenium and how much vit E if I have some for people in capsules? I still have to check, but I think I do...


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2010)

Holachicka said:
			
		

> Lol, Nope, I'm on the other coast in sunny CA...  Please don't apologise, It not too much, I really want to help these babies thrive.


Oops...got you mixed up with another new goat owner from another thread.  





> How much selenium and how much vit E if I have some for people in capsules? I still have to check, but I think I do...


Here, we give 1ml of Bo-Se per 40lbs of goat, but I've given a couple of our new kids 1/2ml with no adverse effects..  1ml of Bo-Se is 1mg of selenium and 68iu of Vit. E....which, IMO, isn't NEARLY enough vit. e.  

I have no idea whether the human selenium tablets are useful or not for those of us in deficient areas...I'm thinking not, though, considering most of those are designed to be taken daily by humans.  Probably an extremely small amount in each pill..  

I wouldn't advise giving selenium unless you know the status of your area, though..  If you're in a selenium rich area, you may not need it...and selenium CAN BE TOXIC if o/d'd.  Most vets should know, of if you can find a goat association nearby, its members would know.

So, ya...sorry I mixed you up with someone else!  Could have been bad..


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 16, 2010)

Last night the seller gave us another Lamancha to replace the one we lost, I'm ok with it because I'm already treating everyone else for the same stuff, and she looks healthier starting out that the others did. This was one she was not going to sell, but it turns out they don't want to or can't deal with treating all of their animals so they are taking them all to auction as is. 

My girls are doing SOOOOO much better! cough is gone, runny nose is gone, no more wobbly legs! I just can't wait to get them to where they are supposed to be! I'm waiting for the day that they are happy healthy playful babies!


----------



## glenolam (Jul 16, 2010)

Glad to hear you're on the up & up.  Now just think of all the things you've learned in the past few days!


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 16, 2010)

Yeah, lol, my hubby, fam and friends are now calling me Sarah the vet.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

Holachicka said:
			
		

> Yeah, lol, my hubby, fam and friends are now calling me Sarah the vet.


Oooooooooooooh, you just wait.  It gets worse/better.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 16, 2010)

Lol! I'm already there! I started doing all kinds of "wierd" things, like, plant a veggie garden, can my own foods, got some chickens, hatch out some quail, now I've got goats for milking later (cheese). All my city friends think I'm strange.  one told me they will never eat anything at my house ever again... sigh


----------



## glenolam (Jul 16, 2010)

Sigh?!?!?

Why not  

Sometimes it's just better that way!


----------



## jodief100 (Jul 16, 2010)

Holachicka said:
			
		

> one told me they will never eat anything at my house ever again... sigh


Get used to it.  Most people refuse to acknowledge that their meat had to die and their eggs, cheese and milk come from animals and not the grocery store.  

When I lived in the city my response was "having chickens [goats or whatever you have, I had chickens] is not crazy.  Not doing what I want to do because of what other people will think..... That's crazy"

My *real* friends say they are heading to my farm when disaster strikes.   I tell them better not come empty handed.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 16, 2010)

I remember someone ranting to me one time about how their baked potato from Wendy's had _dirt_ on it..  I was pretty much engaged in 'passive listening' where you hear keywords and go "mmhmm" or whatever when there's a pause, or make some really benign comment related to the one or two words that actually registered with you..

So, my benign comment was "Well, they do grow in the ground I guess..." 

.
..
...

And then realized there was absolute silence..

After a few seconds of dead air, I snapped to and realized that the person was just standing there, dumbfounded, as a tiny part of their worldview shattered into a zillion tiny little pieces.

Pretty sure I was the first person to ever tell them where potatoes come from.  And this was a peer of mine...I'm 32.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 16, 2010)

Did you hear the glass breaking? 

I know some people just don't get it. Lots of people are detatched from where our food comes from, and closed minded about different types of meat, like quail or rabbit. I was thinking of raising rabbits for meat and a friend got really upset, said it would be like eating a cat! I can understand that rabbits Can be pets, but in the next sentance she got mad that I was thinking of raising pigs too! AND SHE LOVES HAM!!!!!


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

holachicka said:
			
		

> Did you hear the glass breaking?


Fortunately not...she hadn't decided whether or not she really HATED that other goat yet, so she didn't go full-bore.  

EDIT!  EDIT!  

  

I love realizing I'm an idiot.  It's fun, in a self-deprecating sort of way.

See, I mixed up my threads...when I saw "glass breaking," my mind immediately went to another thread (or conversation, or..something) where I was talking about one of my goats butting at her reflection in the sliding glass door.  



You were talking about the 'worldview shattering' thing..

Man...I'm so dumb sometimes, it's scary.    

Seriously...nobody should ever take advice from me.  Consider yourselves warned.  



> I know some people just don't get it. Lots of people are detatched from where our food comes from, and closed minded about different types of meat, like quail or rabbit. I was thinking of raising rabbits for meat and a friend got really upset, said it would be like eating a cat! I can understand that rabbits Can be pets, but in the next sentance she got mad that I was thinking of raising pigs too! AND SHE LOVES HAM!!!!!


My ex-SIL once tried to guilt trip me over deer hunting..  I'd just killed one, and she was like "I just don't see how you can do that." and "It's just cruel" and reh reh reh reh reh.

This was before Thanksgiving dinner.

I asked if she were going to eat any turkey...she said yeah.  I asked what the difference was...she said she didn't have to kill the turkey.

Everybody looked at her like she was an idiot...which she was...so she shut up pretty quick after that.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 20, 2010)

So all of my girls are feeling better, boy do they let me know when they are hungry!! Emma (lamancha) keeps getting scolded because she wants to jump on me  , but they are really thin still. backbones, hips and ribcages showing. I worry about the my little alpine, Lucy. she seems very thin and small. I know it's just a waiting game at this point, but is there anything I might be forgetting sickness wise? I'm feeding alfalfa hay and goat chow. how much goat chow should I provide per day?


----------



## Shiloh Acres (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear of the trouble you've had with them and glad to hear they are better. 

I'm certainly no expert, but I've got a couple little doelings I'm trying to build up (one is still far from out of the woods, but improving). 

Since you asked about feed, I wonder if adding some calf manna might help yours?  It should increase appetite as well. My little girls devour it. It's kinda pricey but since I only use it as a supplement it really goes a long way. 

Maybe someone with more goat experience can give more info if you are interested?  I hope they continue to do very well for you.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 20, 2010)

I would still have a fecal done if you haven't done that and find out if they still have parasites and what the parasites are. 

How big are your girls and their ages? You could always add calf manna to their feed.


----------



## Holachicka (Jul 25, 2010)

So it looks like two of my grils are relapsing!! Cough is back, and the little alpine is wheezing, and appears weak. I went through my old posts and gave her a shot of Vit. B, started her back on antibiotics again. She had gained weight, and was looking great then just started sliding down hill again. my other girl Honey seems ok, just coughing and a little wheezy as well. What on earth is going on?


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 25, 2010)

A diagnosis online is hard....Fever?  Is it damp where you are?  I'd take 'em to the vet and try a really good antibiotic....excenel comes to mind.

Good luck.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 25, 2010)

Excenel (Naxcel) or Draxxin would probably be in order. And like Roll said, get them to a vet. It does sound like it is beyond internet diagnosing.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 25, 2010)

A friend of mine that has a lot of experience with goats just lost 2 in the last few weeks to pnuemonia. We talked about it a few days ago and I was asking her how to know if it is pneumonia or the very frequent goat cough. She said that sometimes it is hard to tell, not always a fever present, but they do get quiet and withdrawn.

Our vet, who also raises goats, told her to put them on LA 200 which she tells me you can buy at feed stores. She siad it worked great and saved the rest of her kids that were sick.

Last summer I had 2 kids that coughed for months. Did antibiotics on one with no change. It finally went away. This year of have one that coughs, but no wheezing in any of them. And they act fine.

I would get them to a vet if you can, especially since one died and they are young kids.


----------



## PJisaMom (Jul 25, 2010)

Hope you get your little ones figured out soon!  I am new to this whole goat thing, too.  Hang in there and keep us posted!




			
				cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Man...I'm so dumb sometimes, it's scary.
> 
> Seriously...nobody should ever take advice from me.  Consider yourselves warned.


NOW you tell me this?????


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 26, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Excenel (Naxcel) or Draxxin would probably be in order. And like Roll said, get them to a vet. It does sound like it is beyond internet diagnosing.


I agree..its does sound beyond internet diagnosing....coughs can mean so many things...must get a fecal done...and give them some "milk replacer" in a bowl..not a bottle...too old...but it will put some wieght on them so they can sustain themselves during this....But get a vet out there or get a fecal done...the fees may scare you...but it will probally solve your problem and you wont lose them!!  With no fever...definatly sounds like parasites/worm of some kind...but only a vet can help...to much time goes by they wont be able to do anything....good luck...I hate to see them suffer....


----------

