# Need to deworm Bad



## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

I noticed their eyelids going pale awhile back and was going to order ivomec.  Well stuff comes up and that got put off...several months.  I had safeguard goat dewormer and gave them all that a few months ago but I don't think it really did any good, just made me think I did something for them.  I had been noticing their coats looked a little rough on a few of them and they were fat, but they eat weeds all day so I dismissed it.  Well this morning I went to let them out their stall and our favorite little girl who is around 8 months old looks really bad.  She isn't as perky as the rest and looks like she lost 15 lbs over night.  So I check her eyelid and its pretty seriously white.  I gave her safeguard dewormer (I overdosed the recomended dosage since it didn't work last time)  because I don't have anything else.  We are going to go to TSC this afternoon and just buy the ivomec today.  Its cheaper to order it from Jeffers and we need some other stuff to but I think we need it now. 
What is the exact ivomec I should get?  Is it the swine injectable, and whats the dose?  anything else I should get for her?  I have some high calorie goat suppement stuff I will give to her just to keep her energy up some.  I really shouldn't have let it get to this point but now I know and want to fix it as fast as possible.


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## glenolam (Sep 21, 2010)

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5514

Read this thread.  It sounds like you're along the same line.

You want to be very careful with how much and what you're puting into her at this stage.  Her body is fighting everything right now so you need to take it careful.

The ivomec you need is for cattle/swine.


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## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks for the speedy reply.  So Im going to go get the ivomec really soon.  Is the correct dosage 1ml per 25lb body weight?  I keep finding 100 different opinions on this.  Also what is Red Cell?  I see alot of people use this.
So I gave 1.25 ml safeguard to her this morning and will give her whatever the dose is of ivomec tonight.  I have a nutient supplement for stressed or show goats that I will give her today along with probis.  Anything else?  Should I repeat the safeguard again tomorrow?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

You want the 1% injectable for cattle..  The dosage I typically use is about 1ml/25lbs of bodyweight, but I've seen dosages anywhere from 3-5ml/100lbs..  Dose it *orally* -- don't give it as an injection!  Draw it up into the syringe, pop the needle off, and shoot it right down her throat.

Continue the Safe-Guard for a few more days, too.  I give it at 1ml/10lbs of bodyweight for 3-straight days.  It'll have some effect.

Keep in mind that giving all these deworming meds to a goat in this bad of a shape has the potential to kill her...  Some folks would recommend doing the Safe-Guard FIRST, then doing the ivomec at some point after that (ranging anywhere from immediately to 10 daysdepending) whereas others will tell you to hit them hard with the strongest thing you have right up front.  It's your call..  Since she's not in bottlejaw yet, I'd *personally* use the Ivomec ASAP -- even if that means using it simultaneously and in conjunction with the Safe-Guard.  

There's some info in the thread referenced above on using Red Cell, too...  I like Red Cell a lot in situations like this.


You mention that she seems to have lost 15lbs overnight...is she scouring?  While the type of worm that causes anemia (the barberpole worm) can definitely have an effect on their overall condition, it's usually not that drastic..  Having said that, the apparent drastic weight loss makes me wonder if there's perhaps something else going on in addition to a barberpole problem..


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## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

What is red cell?  She feels really thin today and has hollows on her sides.  More so than the usual skinny they are in the morning after digesting at night.  I don't know if she is scouring, I did notice her rear looked dirty this morning, like she sat in some dirty water.


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## glenolam (Sep 21, 2010)

The dosage on Ivomec differs from person to person because in certain parts of the US the drug is no longer as efficient as it is on other parts.  It all depends on your area.

How much does the doeling weigh?  Generally, people dose anywhere from 1cc/50# (being a weak strength) to 1cc/25#.  I do 1cc/30# ORALLY (not injected).

Red Cell can be found at TSC in the horse section.  It's a booster for goats and, although I've never used it but have it on-hand, I've read it can be given at high doses, like 6ml/30# or something like that, and still be OK.  Read that other post to see what CM did or search this forum for Red Cell.

The Safeguard can and should be given at 3x the lable dose because this wormer is said to be one of the weakest as far as worm defense.  Since it's been overused, worms are more resistant to it.  However, a friend of mine had a doe almost dying of worm overload and gave her everything under the sun, including ivomec, and the only thing that really worked was Safeguard.

I'd assume it's safe to treat with Safeguard again tomorrow and the next day.

From what I've read here, too, you might want to hold off on Probios just for now.  It depends on the person - my thought is that I should use it so good bacteria are going into the goat and helping it, but it's been mentioned that giving probios isn't the best idea when there's a war going on between good and bad...Better to use the Probios to get the rumen going again once it's in stable condition.  Personally, I'd still give it, but you may differ.

ETA - it's also a great idea to get a fecal sample to your vet.  That way you will know for sure what type of worm is invading your doe.

Has she been treated for coccidia?  Does she have a temperature?  Is she still eating/drinking/peeing/pooping normal?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> Thanks for the speedy reply.  So Im going to go get the ivomec really soon.  Is the correct dosage 1ml per 25lb body weight?  I keep finding 100 different opinions on this.


That'll work for a dosage, given orally.



> Also what is Red Cell?  I see alot of people use this.


Red Cell. 

It's a vitamin/mineral supplement for horses that contains lots and lots of iron..  Best I could ever figure, dosage is about 1ml/10lbs of bodyweight 1x/day for about a week..  

I've given kids of maybe 30lbs a full 6ml/day for a week with good results too, though.



> So I gave 1.25 ml safeguard to her this morning


That's not nearly enough...not even close.  At 8mos of age, she probably should be getting something more like 7-10ml/day for 3 days, depending on her weight (which I'm guessing is 70-100lbs?)..



> and will give her whatever the dose is of ivomec tonight.  I have a nutient supplement for stressed or show goats that I will give her today along with probis.  Anything else?  Should I repeat the safeguard again tomorrow?


Actually, I'd pretend like today's Safe-Guard never happened and give her a more appropriate dose of it tonight, probably right alongside the Ivomec..  

That's me, though, and I'm prone to doing stuff like that.  

FWIW, there's a dewormer in Australia called "q-drench" which combines a macrolide (ivomec's a macrolide), a benzamidazole (Safe-Guard's a benzamidazole), closantel, and levemisole hydrochloride ALL IN ONE DOSE.  

Soooooooooo...do with that what you will.


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## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

She is probably around 35 pounds right now.  She is small, I forgot to say she is a fainting goat.  Her Mom is small probably around 50-60 pounds and her twin brother is alittle bigger than her.
I just got back from getting ivomec.  We went to a local feed store and they had ivomax, it's listed as being a 1% ivermectin solution for swine and cattle so I asumed it was the same thing.  I didn't get the red cell, if it's just a suppliment we have Dyne Goat and Sheep high calorie liquid dietary supplement that I am giving her.
Tonight I'll give her 3 ml safeguard, 1 ml ivomax, and 1/2 oz of suppliment.  Does this sound right?  And then I'll repeat the safeguard dosage for 3 more days.


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## glenolam (Sep 21, 2010)

Sounds like the same thing.

If the dose lable on your Dyne Goat and supplement say 1/2 oz, then go for that....I've never used either so I'm not sure on that one.

You'll also want to hit her up again with the ivomax in 10 days, so mark your calendar.

Any temperature?  And what about the coccidia treatment?  Does she have scours?


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## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

Okay ivomax 10 days later.  I just took her temp, it's 103.1 and it does look like she has some scours.  She is still hanging with the other goats just laying down sometimes while the others are eating.  I'm getting more worried about her.  I've never treated anything for coccida should I be thinking about that for her?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

The thinness you're perceiving may be dehydration if she's been scouring..  Her temp seems more or less normal, should about 101 - 103, and perhaps a bit higher if you adjust for high outside temps..  I see you're from LA...prolly pretty warm out now, right?  If so, 103.1 wouldn't worry me too badly..

Pinch her upper eyelid between your fingers and see if it stays 'tented' when you let go..  If it does, she's dehydrated.  Dehydration can also effect their eyelid mucous membrane color, making them appear more whited-out than they would be if properly hydrated.  

I looked up the "dyne goat and sheep" you mentioned and apparently it can be diluted and given for dehydration, almost like an electrolyte..  An actual electrolyte solution (re-sorb, for instance) would be better, I suspect, but if she's dehydrated and if the dyne goat label says it can be used for dehydration...and if it's all you've got...I'd be inclined to use it that way.  

Tell us more about the nature of the scour..  Color -- green, brown, black, ..?  Consistency -- dirty water, thin pudding, "dog turd", ..?  Is it noticeably foul in odor?  Any blood?  Mucous?  Tissue shreds?  Anything you can tell us about the scour will probably be helpful..

Also, other than being depressed, is she demonstrating any discomfort by grinding her teeth or anything like that?

If she's not been treated for coccidia and isn't on a grain ration that's medicated against coccidia (or even if she IS, as sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't), then I'd keep coccidiosis in play and start looking for meds..  

The best, I think, is a drug called sulfadimethoxine, aka "DiMethox"..  DiMethox is generic Albon.

Next best would be sulfamethazine, aka "Sulmet"..  

After that, I'd probaly have to go with sulfamathoxazole/trimethroprim, aka "SMZ-TMP."  The SMZ part of the formula would be the cocci killer.

There's also CoRid, though I have no experience with CoRid personally.  All I know about CoRid is that it has to be used in WAY HIGH DOSES in goats and that it's a thiamine inhibitor that's been linked to a disease called "goat polio," which is a thiamine deficiency..  I wouldn't use CoRid unless I had no other choice, personally.

The dosage on either DiMethox or Sulmet is about 25mg per pound of bodyweight given orally on day one, then 12.5mg/lb on days 2-5....though I usually just do 25mg/lb straight through day 5.  There are different strengths and fomulations of each med...oral solutions, injectables, pills, etc..  Just figure out how many milligrams of med is in each unit of measure for whatever form you end up with, and you can do the math from there..  Always give it orally, though, even if you end up with an injectable form.

SMZ-TMP is also called "Bactrim" or "Septrim" in humans..  It's Rx only, so you'd definitely have to get it from a vet.  Fias Co lists their dosage as 1 960mg SMZ-TMP tablet per 75lbs of goat, if I'm not mistaken, but I've seen other folks list dosages much higher than that.  If all I could get was SMZ-TMP and I thought this kid was a coccidia candidate, I'd probably just hit her with 1/day for about 5-7 days.

Frankly, SMZ-TMP might not be a bad idea here, now that I'm thinking about it..  The TMP part -- trimethoprim -- is a gut antibiotic.  If there happened to be some bacterial component to her scouring and acting funny, the TMP would likely help that..  There's some debate on just how much trimethoprim helps ruminants as it tends to bind to "rumen juice," but I know of at least one goat that I STRONGLY suspected of having a deadly serious case of bacterial enteritis who _finally_ pulled through on SMZ-TMP..  Do with that what you will..

Anyhow...whew, ok, so there ya go.  Another un-asked-for novella by CM, and probably more than was actually helpful.  

I gotta stop doing that.  :/


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## ksalvagno (Sep 21, 2010)

I dose SMZ-TMP at lcc per 10 pounds. Same dosage for alpacas and goats.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I dose SMZ-TMP at lcc per 10 pounds. Same dosage for alpacas and goats.


I never could find the liquid; only the tablets.  What's the mg/ml on the liquid?

ETA:  I think I found a reference to it, but...can it be right?  What I'm seeing lists 48mg/ml for the liquid suspension, which is the correct proportion....like, a 960mg tab = 800mg SMZ + 160mg TMP, so 48mg probably = 40mg SMZ + 8mg TMP..  So that seems correct, proportionally speaking...  

But that would also mean 1 tablet = **20ml** of the liquid!  

If you're using a 48mg/ml liquid at a rate of 1ml/10lbs, that would be the equivalent of dosing the tablets at 1 tablet per *200lbs* of bodyweight, making it the lowest dosage I've yet to see listed anywhere.


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## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

You lost me a bit when you started listing medicines, I had to reread it 3 or 4 times and still can't get the SMZs and riods and sulfamwhatevers strait.  I'll try and find one of those though, it won't hurt her to give her one if it isn't coccidia?  
I went out and pinched her eyelid and it tented up and sunk back down.  I tried it on a couple other goats and their skin sunk down alittle faster than hers.  So I guess she could be alittle dehydrated, but then while I was fussing with her she went over and got a drink *shrug.  I gave her the Dyne stuff but haven't brought myself to worm her again yet.  I guess Im scared of dong more harm than good.  I absolutely will do it this evening though.  I saw her poop for the first time today (not to say she hasn't been pooping when Im not around) and it looked more or less normal.  Maybe alittle more brown and some irregularity in size but fairly normal.  I was just taking that she was scouring alittle because her bottom is messy.  She is just laying in her corner, sleeping I guess, while the other goats lay around or eat.  They are usually all laying out around this time of day but she is more by herself than usual.  She perks up and looks alert when I go over but when I first go out she looks sleepy.  I'm thinking she isn't really hungry because she wasn't super interested when I was shaking some feed around with the Dyne on it (I did give her some of the supplemen by mouth).


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## glenolam (Sep 21, 2010)

CM is known for (forgive me, friend  ) long winded responses.  He just tries to help and gives every bit of info he knows...and sometimes more.

To sum up what he said, if your doeling was never treated for coddia, it might not be a bad idea to do it now.

I ordered 12.5% DiMethox from Hoegger's website.  With this bottle, I gave my kids 1cc/5lbs on day 1, and 1cc/10lbs days 2-5.  CM's suggestion before about doing 1cc/5lbs everyday might not hurt if she's in bad shape.

Other people can chime in and tell you what they used for coccidia...

You then repeat that dose 2x again in three weeks and 6 weeks.  Think of it this way - a new born kid would get treated for coccidia at 3 weeks old, 6 weeks old and 9 weeks old.  Two weeks between the last and first series of each treatment.

Still, it'd be in her best interest for you to get a fecal sample to a vet if you can.  If not, you'll have to trust your gut and do the 'treat and see if it works' method (which, IMO, is what some vets do anyway  )


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## glenolam (Sep 21, 2010)

PS - 

It'll hopefully be OK.  It's hard when they're not feeling their best, but it sounds like you're doing what you can for her now.  Keep your eye on her (and her temperature) and look for drastic changes.  Keep her hydrated.  Treat her with the Safeguard and Ivomec and see if that helps.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 21, 2010)

I do always have the liquid on hand. It has 200mg sulfamethoxazole / 40mg trimethoprim per 5 ml


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> You lost me a bit when you started listing medicines, I had to reread it 3 or 4 times and still can't get the SMZs and riods and sulfamwhatevers strait.  I'll try and find one of those though, it won't hurt her to give her one if it isn't coccidia?


Sorry..  
No, it won't hurt her even if it's not coccidia.



> I went out and pinched her eyelid and it tented up and sunk back down.  I tried it on a couple other goats and their skin sunk down alittle faster than hers.  So I guess she could be alittle dehydrated, but then while I was fussing with her she went over and got a drink *shrug.


She sounds a little dehydrated, but it's good that she's up and drinking on her own..  Goats that are sick enough to be badly dehydrated typically can't think straight enough to do that.  Having the presence of mind to go get a drink is definitely a good sign.





> I gave her the Dyne stuff but haven't brought myself to worm her again yet.  I guess Im scared of dong more harm than good.  I absolutely will do it this evening though.


Well, you haven't mentioned "bottle jaw" or any other obvious edema in the low spots of her body (around the belly, for instance), so that's good..  To have an animal that's progressed to full-blown bottlejaw is pretty much the worst possible predicament in terms of walking the fine line between being aggressive enough to be successful and being so aggressive that the treatment ultimately kills the animal.

Once you get to the point of bottlejaw is when you _really_ have to start tiptoeing the line between being aggressive enough to be successful, and being so aggressive that the treatment ultimately kills the animal.  In the absence of bottlejaw, though, there's a little more wiggle room for being aggressive.  

Still, what it all comes down to, unfortunately, is that sometimes you just hit a certain point in treating goats where you're faced with the fear of doing too much at once, yet you know that if you don't do something, the goat's going to die anyway.  And as much as we're afraid to do something that could ultimately cause the animal to become worse, we already know the outcome if we were to give in to fear and choose not to do it..._certain_ death...and so we swallow really hard, do it anyway, then chew our fingernails to the quick as we wait to see if we've saved a life or signed a death warrant.

That's just how it is sometimes.  

If it's any consolation, I've been there, most goat people I know have been there, and we'll all be here for ya as much as we can be to try and help you through this.  



> I saw her poop for the first time today (not to say she hasn't been pooping when Im not around) and it looked more or less normal.  Maybe alittle more brown and some irregularity in size but fairly normal.  I was just taking that she was scouring alittle because her bottom is messy.  She is just laying in her corner, sleeping I guess, while the other goats lay around or eat.  They are usually all laying out around this time of day but she is more by herself than usual.  She perks up and looks alert when I go over but when I first go out she looks sleepy.  I'm thinking she isn't really hungry because she wasn't super interested when I was shaking some feed around with the Dyne on it (I did give her some of the supplemen by mouth).


She sounds just a little bit depressed and tired..  Anemia can absolutely do that, as can whatever caused her to scour in the first place..  She probably feels like crap right now..

Deworm.  Make sure she's continuing to keep herself hydrated..  Get some Red Cell and her give that..  Keep a close eye on her for changes..  Don't kill yourself running all over town trying to get the cocci meds if her stool is more or less normal, but now would be a good time to place an order for it...if you order from Jeffers, Valley Vet, etc., it will probably be in by Thursday or Friday.  Coccidia meds are really good to have on hand anyhow, even if you end up not using it in this particular instance.

Keep us up on her.  



			
				glenolam said:
			
		

> CM is known for (forgive me, friend  ) long winded responses.


Guilty.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I do always have the liquid on hand. It has 200mg sulfamethoxazole / 40mg trimethoprim per 5 ml


Ok, so that's...carry the three...naught...double naught...carry the one...48mg total per ML, which is what I read.

Yikes..  

And a scant 1ml/10lbs works in goats?  Seems like a sooooper light dose to me..


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## ksalvagno (Sep 21, 2010)

That's what my vet said was the dosage. Maybe that works in our area and not in yours or something.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> That's what my vet said was the dosage. Maybe that works in our area and not in yours or something.


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## Horsefly (Sep 21, 2010)

Okay so I had to go somewhere for awhile and got home at 6:30 and was suposed to be somewhere else at 7:00.  Needless to say I was late.  I ran out and gave Buttercup 1cc ivomax and 2.5cc safeguard.  My dad said he went out and saw her and she peed and there was some blood, sort of chunks?  but then she pooped normally.  Could she have some sort of bladder infection?  I gave her 1.5cc penicillen just to be safe.  Her whole mouth is white, like her tounge and everything.  She still wants to eat and drink so that looks really good.
Well in the few minutes I was home I saw my neighbor out (he is a horse vet) and asked him to come take a look at her.  He came over and took her temp and it was 106.7!  He said it was really high and he couldn't believe she was still eating.  He said everything I had done was good and gave her a shot of banamine.  I'm suposed to take her temp again in the morning and let him know.  He said it could still be parasitical.
So what do yall think?  For tonight she is in a seperate stall with her brother.


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2010)

I would think infection with a temp like that. If they get a fever with worms that is a first for me and I learned something new. 

There are so many antibiotics that treat different bugs that it is hard to know what to start them on, but pen can't hurt at this point.

Good luck, I hope you caught this in time.


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## glenolam (Sep 22, 2010)

Wow - that's a really high temperature.

She's definitly got an infection.  Good thing about your neighbor!  

How is she this morning?  Do you have a vet that you could take her to (unless your neighbor also deals with goats)?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

Wow!  Things change so quickly..  

If it's her bladder, PenG would probably be a good choice because my understanding is that the primary route of elimination of PenG is through the renal system, meaning they pee it out...which, of course, means it goes right to the infection.  That's a good thing.



Dosage on PenG in goats is 1ml/15lbs of bodyweight, 2x/day for at least a week..  I give it through an 18ga needle since it's an 'extra chunky' med, but a 20ga will *usually* work OK.  Do not give it through a 22ga needle, though -- the bigger med particles are too big to flow through that small of a needle, so you end up underdosing because your syringe contains too much carrier and not enough of the actual medication.

You said she was probably about 35lbs...personally, I'd probably just err on the side of caution and give her 3ml of the PenG, 2x/day.  

Banamine was a good idea, too..  Not only does it decrease pain, but also fever and inflammation.  



For the vet to say it could still be parasitic...I would probably just take that to mean he thinks some of her symptoms are probably related to parasites.  Not all her symptoms, necessarily, but some.


Give her another, bigger shot of PenG, ASAP.

You're doing great, btw.


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Okay I just came in from treating her.  Bad news and good news, bad first.  I didn't check here before going out so I only gave her another 1.5cc pen.  And I think I hit a nerve in her leg because it is all wobbley and she falls over on it if she trips... Oops.  I remeber the vet telling us last time we had to give pen to give it in the muscle because it works faster and if you hit something it will just make it go numb for awhile, Im really really hopeing this is true now I feel bad for her.  Now the good news!  Her temp was 102.3 this morning AND her tounge and eyelids are showing the faintist bits of pink again!!!  She still wants to eat and be with the other goats though she is laying down now because of her leg.  I'm going to put her in a seperate pen for alittle while later with a nice big peice of hay and some water so she can get her rummen filled back up.  Thanks for all the help and support so far, I am so glad people can help me.
Oh, I didn't see her eliminate yet today so I don't know what the status with her infection is.  We don't have any goat vets around here unless we take her to the state vet school so I'm just going to let my neighbor (strictly horse vet) watch her for now unless something big changes.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

OK, no more IM PenG injections.  It works just as well given SQ in goats..  Their metabolism is fast enough to suck it right into the bloodstream without going IM..  

Frankly, there's little that aggravates me more than when vets instruct people to give injections IM without really explaining *safe* ways to do it..  They all have a BAD HABIT of just assuming that everybody knows safe ways to give IM injections, forgetting what it probably felt like the first time THEY did it.

 

Keep an eye on that leg..  I really don't mean to freak you out right now, but if the unfortunate reality is that sometimes they recover from having their sciatic nerve poked...but sometimes they don't.  Also, please understand that I don't mean to make it sound like this is _your fault_...this sorta thing happens pretty frequently with IM injections in goats, and this is what you were instructed to do by your vet...  Plus, they told you that if you hit something, it's no biggie and it'll get better.  I'm not blaming you at all -- I'M ANGRY AT THE DADGUM VET!


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Okay, so what are the chances that it won't get better?  She walks on it but it's just really weak so she will lay down more.  Can I give her anything to help it heal?  I got the penicilin out the bottle with an 18 gage needle but injected it with a smaller one (vet said that was okay because it wasn't a large amount of pen).  So it wasn't as a large poke to the nerve.  How long till I know if she gets better.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> OK, no more IM PenG injections.  It works just as well given SQ in goats..  Their metabolism is fast enough to suck it right into the bloodstream without going IM..
> 
> Frankly, there's little that aggravates me more than when vets instruct people to give injections IM without really explaining *safe* ways to do it..  They all have a BAD HABIT of just assuming that everybody knows safe ways to give IM injections, forgetting what it probably felt like the first time THEY did it.


Ouch...Poor girl...I agree they metabolise very quickly.  

Just a thought..I would give her some B complex too (SQ!)  It will boost her eating and help while recovering.

I would also recomend thinking about her personality while separating her...I dont unless its absolutely a health risk to them or the others in herd...cuz mine dont like to be alone and it stress' them out..which is never good to add more stress when under the weather!!  

PS  You should ask your "vet" nieghbor to show you intra muscle shots...I got a lesson from my vet and its important to know...get all the info you can while hes around and willing to help!!!  

Just curious...where did you give her the IM??  In the hind??    

Good Luck...hope for a speedy recovery for her!


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

I'm letting her run with the rest of the goats during the day and seperating her with her brother at night.  Nobody really bothers her which is good.  I gave the shot in the muscle over her back leg, in the rump.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

I don't have a timeline for ya, in terms of how long before you know if it's going to be OK or not..  I wish I did.  I don't know of anything that might help her, either..  The only thing I can even think of is _maybe_ more banamine or maybe some dexamethasone to reduce inflammation..  

Those are both very simple "maybes," though, conjured up out of my own head...not part of any protocol.  Not to mention, too much banamine is dangerous, and dexamethasone is probably a bad idea rigth now because we don't know if that infection is under control yet..  Dex is a no-no for a goat with uncontrolled infections, as it severely hampers the immune system..

Wish I had more to offer than that..   

FWIW, if I have to give an IM shot (which is rare -- the VAST majority of stuff I give is SQ), I try my best to give it in the neck/shoulder area, right here:






(that's not my image, btw...I stole that one from somewhere)

I typically wuss out, too, and give only thin, watery meds like lutalyse or banamine IM, and I use a 5/8"x25ga needle..  Not much risk of hitting anything serious with such a small, short needle.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

Just thought of something -- ICE PACK.

Total shot in the dark, but ice packs are good for bringing down inflammation and there's something telling me that inflammation has a lot to do with this..  Ask your horse-vet neighbor guy...tell him you think you poked her sciatic nerve and ask if he thinks an ice pack over the hip might be a good idea.

My guess is he'll say...."Couldn't hurt."

Do ask, though, as I'm just using what little I know in order to speculate on what *I* might do in this situation.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Just thought of something -- ICE PACK.


Ice would be good for short periods of time alternating with heat cuz you dont want to completely restrict blood flow.   You just filled and bruised her muscle with a thick fluid so shes probally very sore..so heat will encourage blood flow and blood flow is always good..carries they healing properties to the site.   And ice is always good to cuz it reduces inflamation.  Alternate..I would.

But cm is absolutely "dead on" with that picture...Its never good to give them shots in the hinds...risky...(like the neck is any safer eeekks)  but anyway...my vet took my hand and made me feel the muscle on the shoulder neck area and get familiar with it...and when injecting into muscle you should go slower while injecting because again Penn is thick and it hurts and it needs time to dispurse....

You can asked about an anti imflamatory for her to see if that helps...but I would be concern with her passing too much through her bladder...I would wait on that.  when her infection in the bladder clears a bit and shes still down after a few days..I would think about trying that...

Give her time to heal...a few days anyway...you know goaties..one foot in the grave one day and dancing on your roof the next....

Learning curve...we all had em...keep you chin up!!!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't do the heat, personally..  You're right in saying that it'll encourage blood flow and bring "healing properties," but a lot of times what the body *thinks* will have a healing effect are inflammatory cytokines..  

Kinda like how the body sends inflammatory cytokines to a goat's wingding after it passes a bunch of sandy, sharp, urinary calculi crystals..  It *thinks* it's helping, but in reality, it's sealing off the wingding and the goat dies..

In my mind, the whole goal of the ice is retard the body's attempt to inflame the area further, and that inflammation -- in my mind, anyway -- might be what ultimately leads to permanent nerve damage.

I'm spitballin', though..  That's why I encouraged the OP to contact a vet about it!





> But cm is absolutely "dead on" with that picture...Its never good to give them shots in the hinds...risky...(like the neck is any safer eeekks)  but anyway...my vet took my hand and made me feel the muscle on the shoulder neck area and get familiar with it...and when injecting into muscle you should go slower while injecting because again Penn is thick and it hurts and it needs time to dispurse....


That's why I never do Pen IM anyway..  



> You can asked about an anti imflamatory for her to see if that helps...but I would be concern with her passing too much through her bladder...I would wait on that.  when her infection in the bladder clears a bit and shes still down after a few days..I would think about trying that...


That's kinda what I was thinking, too...  Not the bladder thing, necessarily, but that banamine's hard on the innards in general and she's little, was dehydrated, and has already had one dose..  And also that dex is an immune killer and she's obviously got/had an infection, soooo...

That's what led me to thinking about a good ol' icepack.  



> Give her time to heal...a few days anyway...you know goaties..one foot in the grave one day and dancing on your roof the next....


True...but I'd jump on the nerve thing right away, personally.  Again, my thinking is that if it goes too long without something, I'd worry that the risk would increase with time if the inflammation is left to continue unabated..

I could be dead wrong, though..  



> Learning curve...we all had em...keep you chin up!!!


Amen to that!


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Okay, I won't see my neighbor till this evening so I'll just do some ice for now.  How should I go about that?  I can't stay out with her for hours so if I do like 10-15 minutes every hour work?  Or should I try and tie something to her?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

Umm...that's a good question.  

Seems to me that the sheer logistics of trying to keep something icy on a 103* goat for more than 10-15 minutes wouldn't really be practical anyway...stuff melts, afterall...so I'd probably just do the best I could to ice it down periodically.

My guess is that even if you started off trying to keep it iced almost constantly, you'll run out of stuff to use to ice it down pretty quickly and your intervals from there on out will be dictated by the efficiency of your freezer.  

In other words...I wouldn't worry about tying anything up, and just do what you can.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

This might help a little to relieve your mind...its shows generally where the nerve runs...and of course size and shape of the animal will probally differ a little...

I did however call my vet...of course he cant be completely accurate..but this situation was buggin me..cuz I know if it was me...Id be freaking out...

So anyway he stated that "generally" if you hit the sciatic nerve and damage it the goat would probally not be walking on or putting any weight on it.  Or if minor injury to it she may have a shake in it when walking.   Major injury to it she would more likley have a drag or not use it at all. (Paralysis)

 He said it sounds more like a fast push of penn in muscle and shes very sore.  Cuz it will cause a lesion and be very painful to her.  Of course this is a speculation on his part with only my limited discription of the situation...SO please take it at face value...

As for the heat/ice thing he said its hard to give a definate of course but if she has sciatic damage ice right away to reduce inflamation or if its stiffness from soreness from muscle pain and injury use heat....sooo again your decision!!  But he said heat/ice thing generally only works right after injury...w/ in a few hours..whatever that means...I use heating pad for days if I have a sore back...sooo???  Its up to you!!  Good luck...Keep us posted...Im very curious how she does...

And CM thanks for your input...I appreciate your knowledge 
Keeps us on our toes!!!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> This might help a little to relieve your mind...its shows generally where the nerve runs...and of course size and shape of the animal will probally differ a little...


Psst...that needle's pointed the wrong way.



IF you HAVE to give a shot, IM, in the rear leg, always always always point the needle AWAY from the bone.  In those rare occasions when I've given one in the leg, what I usually do is stand at the goat's shoulder and hit low-ish on the leg from the outside with the needle pointing at about a 45* angle away from me and the goat..  

I know...it's confusing even for ME to read..

The point is to orient the needle in such a way that if the goat kicks or does something stupid once the needle's in, that the needle isn't apt to go in deeper toward the nerves on accident.  If you can manage to interpret what I wrote about how I do it, you'll see that -- if anything -- the needle will just poke out the other side if the goat does something stupid.

I dunno if that makes sense or not, but...anyway.  There it is.  



> I did however call my vet...of course he cant be completely accurate..but this situation was buggin me..cuz I know if it was me...Id be freaking out...
> 
> So anyway he stated that "generally" if you hit the sciatic nerve and damage it the goat would probally not be walking on or putting any weight on it.  Or if minor injury to it she may have a shake in it when walking.   Major injury to it she would more likley have a drag or not use it at all. (Paralysis)
> 
> ...


Right! Heat on strained muscles, ice on injuries..  And since we don't know if this is muscle soreness or a nerve issue, my gut is telling me to err on the side of caution and *assume* it to be a nerve injury and proceed down that path...which means ice...and no heat.

Reason being, I'd much rather make a sore muscle worse with ice than make a damaged nerve worse with heat.  

Dunno if that makes any sense or not either, but...well, again, there ya go.  

Cool that you called your vet, though!  I love goat people.  



> And CM thanks for your input...I appreciate your knowledge
> Keeps us on our toes!!!


No no no no...not knowledge...speculation and....geez....intuition, I guess?  I dunno how else to put it.  

Medical stuff runs in my family.  My mom and one of my aunts are nurses, and my other aunt's an MD, and they're all really, really good at it and picked it up easily..  I spent my "formative years" listening to my mom wander around the house repeating medical terminology and threatening to use me and my brother as guinea pigs for giving shots and drawing blood..  She still laughs to this day about walking past the bathroom when I was about 5, and there I sat in the tub saying "Thrombocytopenia... Thrombocytopenia... Thrombocytopenia"  

Yes, that actually happened.  

And I didn't even know until just a few years ago that my paternal grandfather was the "country vet" in the area when my dad was a kid..  People from miles around used to call him when they had sick animals, and he'd travel near and far fixing them up..  He was a coal miner by trade, but somehow found that he had a knack for fixing critters.  My dad says he can remember the old 'three-ring' glass syringe and stovepipe-of-a-needle my papaw used to have.  He used that old needle so much that it apparently wasn't an uncommon site to see him sharpening it with a fine whetrock and a leather "strop," like ol' timey barbers used for straight razors.

I dunno..  As confounded as I get sometimes treating animals -- and, believe me, I DO -- the basic principles behind it are one of two things I've found in life that really seem to "click" with me..  

The other was computer programming....go figure.  :/


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

The nerve!!! The nerve!!! LOL  the location was the POINT!!! LOL
But if they could'nt even get the needle pointed correctly...maybe we should be skeptical of where they show how the nerve runs!!!  

The nerve of them!!! LOL

     Im am shutting up!!   

Hope it works out and really...Keep updating..Im very curious how she does!!

(cm - its also because you love goaties too!!)


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Thank you sooo much both of yall.  Thank you Emmets Dairy for calling your vet, as I said before there aren't any goat vets around here.  She uses the leg and bends it herself and all, it just seems after I gave the shot she got really weak in her back leg/s.  Like she was falling to one side.  I really hope it's just soreness, I would hate myself if I make her lame the rest of her life.  If I hit the nerve it would be at the first bend at the top of the nerve from your drawing.
CM, I guess I did the shot backwards from what you said.  When I put the needle in and pushed the plunger it wouldn't go in at first and so I thought the needle (since I switched needles) was to small for the penicillin.  I pulled out a bit and it went in easily.  I did kind of put it in fast because I wanted to be done with it.  I don't know if that could affect anything.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> Thank you sooo much both of yall.  Thank you Emmets Dairy for calling your vet, as I said before there aren't any goat vets around here.  She uses the leg and bends it herself and all, it just seems after I gave the shot she got really weak in her back leg/s.  Like she was falling to one side.  I really hope it's just soreness, I would hate myself if I make her lame the rest of her life.  If I hit the nerve it would be at the first bend at the top of the nerve from your drawing.
> CM, I guess I did the shot backwards from what you said.  When I put the needle in and pushed the plunger it wouldn't go in at first and so I thought the needle (since I switched needles) was to small for the penicillin.  I pulled out a bit and it went in easily.  I did kind of put it in fast because I wanted to be done with it.  I don't know if that could affect anything.


Your more than welcome...Im sorry for your anguish!! Its stinks!!  I wish I could help more but again!!  As the vet said:

 "generally" if you hit the sciatic nerve and damage it the goat would probally not be walking on or putting any weight on it.  Or if minor injury to it she may have a shake in it when walking.   Major injury to it she would more likley have a drag or not use it at all. (Paralysis)

He said it sounds more like a fast push of penn in muscle and shes very sore. 

If shes moving it on her own..it could of just been too fast...it really is a very painful shot...its very thick..even when its done perfect...so..dont beat yourself up too much...you did the best you could for her!!


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Okay gave 2.5 cc pen under the skin, gave safeguard, gave supplement, and took her temp.  It was 105.4 gahh!!  Plus she is has blood around where she pees and on her tail (she keeps swishing it).  My dad gave me the lecture about it's a farm animal and told me not to call our neighbor because he does vetting for a living and shouldn't be helping us for free.  Sooo can I give her ibuprofin for the fever, or something else?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> Okay gave 2.5 cc pen under the skin, gave safeguard, gave supplement, and took her temp.  It was 105.4 gahh!!  Plus she is has blood around where she pees and on her tail (she keeps swishing it).  My dad gave me the lecture about it's a farm animal and told me not to call our neighbor because he does vetting for a living and shouldn't be helping us for free.  Sooo can I give her ibuprofin for the fever, or something else?


Poor Baby!!  
Human Aspirin (Not tylenol or advil but REAL ASPIRIN) In place of Banamine for fever reduction and pain relief.  (1) 325mg aspirin for an adult goat..

Have youve seen her urinate?  Is she going?


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

I have been seeing her pee, it looks more or less normal but there is blood on her legs and tail and you can tell it is from when she pees.  Should I give asprin?  My Mom said it sometimes makes humans bleed.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 22, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> I have been seeing her pee, it looks more or less normal but there is blood on her legs and tail and you can tell it is from when she pees.  Should I give asprin?  My Mom said it sometimes makes humans bleed.


I cant answer that one...Im not really sure..It does thin blood in humans in long term use for heart problems...but really unsure about goats...definatly differant than humans...I would imagine it would be fine..its not like shes gonna be on it a long time...personally I would do it..

But its really your call???

Maybe someone else would know more about the aspirin?


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## Roll farms (Sep 22, 2010)

This is coming out of left field but....Cranberry juice helps humans w/ bladder infections...wonder if you could offer her some watered down in her drinking water....wouldn't hurt, might help.

I've also given liquid ibuprofen (for human kids) when it was all I had to bring down a fever, at double the human dose.  
Not ideal, and definitely not something I'd use long term, but better than nothing if the fever / pain are very bad and must be treated NOW.

From http://dairygoatsplus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212
top IBUPROFEN 

"A NSAID anti-inflammatory for pain, especially of the joints, muscles, fever reduction. 
I dose at double the human dose twice daily. 
Ibuprofen relieves pain and lowers fever. At the over-the-counter dosage, ibuprofen does not reduce inflammation. "


It's my understanding that aspirin isn't absorbed easily through the rumen and it takes a lot in a goat to have an effect.
The dosage at Fiasco is 1 325 mg aspirin per 10#.  I also found this...you have to scroll down a bit to see the Dr.'s answer...

http://www.justanswer.com/questions...ith-a-swollen-knee-and-she-can-not-straighten


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

If I do the asprin can I put it in water to make a paste and squirt it in her mouth? 
I will have to get some cranberry juice to try.


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## Roll farms (Sep 22, 2010)

If her pee looks normal....could it be a uterine infection, and the drainage is coming from her vulva?  

I would expect the pee to be blood-tinged, if it's causing blood around her tail / twee.


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

It's like after she goes you can see the blood drops leak out, and then she swishes her tail around.
I just thought of this, could the bleeding be because I killed to many worms at once?  Would there still be a fever?  We didn't see blood until today after worming last night.


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## Roll farms (Sep 22, 2010)

If the blood were coming from her butt, I'd think it's a small, tiny possibility, but if it's coming from her vulva....I'd think uterine / bladder.

Any slight possibility she's bred and aborting from stress / illness?


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## freemotion (Sep 22, 2010)

OK, I have to chime in on the ice/heat thing.  I teach hydrotherapy (heat and ice) to massage therapy students so I think I have a little training in this... 

Ice is most effective in strain/sprain type injuries if applied early, ideally within about 15 minutes.  But really it should be applied often during the acute phase of the injury.  Forget the bag of frozen peas...that is only useful when real ice or a gel ice pack is not available.  The peas will thaw and not maintain the cold temp as long as ice cubes and water in a ziploc (the water circulates, keeping the surface of the pack cold.  Frozen veggies thaw and warm up on the surface too quickly).  There is a certain degree of circulating going on in a gel pack, too.

Acute can be 1-3 days.  You do not alternate heat during the most acute phase.  You don't need to warm the tissues after applying ice if it is done correctly and not overdone.  CBAN is the rule....cold, burning, achy, numb...then remove.  For an animal, numb is when they stop wiggling and protesting.  

The process that happens is this (sort of):  Apply ice pack.  The body constricts blood vessels in the area, then dilates blood vessels in the area, bringing more blood and more healing to the area.  If the blood cools, the core (organs) cools, so the blood vessels constrict, driving blood from the area.  Then the area gets too cool again, so the blood vessels dilate again, bringing more blood to the area.  This process, called the Hunting Response, is controversial, but empirically, the results are faster healing time with certain types of injuries with the application of ice in the early phases.

Heat is for chronic muscular tension.  Chronic tension/pain can become acute at any time, though, and then ice would be indicated.  I tell my students and my clients that if you know why your chronic injury has flaired up and it was in the past day or two, use ice.  If you don't know why and it's mild, use heat.  For example, if your low back pain has been chronic for ten years, and yesterday you stacked four cords of wood on your weekend off from your desk job, well, now, that is acute and you need to apply ice.

When in doubt, go with ice, not heat.  Heat can increase cellular damage (hypoxic injury, swelling) and ice will reduce swelling and injury.  I'd ice the poor goatie.    You just got my four hour class in a few paragraphs.


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Any slight possibility she's bred and aborting from stress / illness?


She actually could be bred, it would of been an accident, she has access to her Dad at times but we watch them and lock up respective goats when we suspect things.  Have been trying to get rid of him for awhile as we don't have a formal buck pen to put him in.
*I just found some blood and tissue where she was laying down and took it and put it under the microscope.  It looks like there might be worms in the tissue, I'll try and put a picture up in a sec.  I'm thinkning the blood stuff could be from worm kill, but then the fever?


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## Roll farms (Sep 22, 2010)

The question remains, which orifice is it coming out of????  
If you say she's 'bleeding when she pees' then, it can't be coming out of her rectum.

My guess is the vulva and it's either a miscarriage or uterine infection.

I've dewormed a heck of a lotta goats in my time, and while they may have funky poo for a while afterward, I've yet to see any bloody or tissue-y poo from it.

And trying to seperate them when you see things, usually isn't very successful...they can be quite sneaky and have silent heats.


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## ()relics (Sep 22, 2010)

sounds like this girl is a walking pin cushion...the only thing I've picked up is that initially the goat had pale eyelids....after that it is a blur...If you are still stabbing might as well give her some iron...and that would be IM...then I am going to wait and see _exactly what hole she is bleeding from_...and hope that you will be giving her something for that fever to save her brain....I like childrens liquid ibuprofen at twice the recommended kids dose...
yeah the leg...you touched a nerve, not a life threatening deal.  _We_ all used to give shots IM until we learned that goats weren't pigs, I say we I mean we that have had goats for a few years.


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## Horsefly (Sep 22, 2010)

Okay I'm keeping all option open here.  What if it was a miscarage?  Anything I should be watching for/doing?
The blood definately isn't from when she poops.  I saw her pee up close and it was 100% normal.  Its just I see the blood on her legs, tail, and where she was laying.  I got some of the pink tissue from the blood and put it under the microscope with methylen blue in it.  Here are two pictures I took of what looks like it could be a worm stuck in tissue.  This was at 400x maginfication (as high as our scope will go).


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## ()relics (Sep 23, 2010)

Since I am not a microbiologist, just a dumb goat herder, and the above picture reminds me of a jr high science fair project gone wrong, I will have to go with a pure guess.....Your goat is not well...She has numerous conditions that has led her to delivering a kid, or kid stuff anyway, very early term.  Which, as bad as it may seem, may not have been That bad because she was potentially bred back to her father and she had she carried the kid longer her health condition would No Doubt become worse.....So Now...Miscarriage?  its the premature delivery of a kid, or atheists like to call it a fetus.  The blood came from her "Pee Hole" just to simplify it as much as possible.  The blood on her backside, is probably leftover from the event.  Worm in a piece of tissue?  Lets hope not, that may be the first appearance of some superworm.  Why did she miscarry?  Loads of reasons.  Heavy worm load, also causing her eyelids to be pale. High fever, any number of diseases,trauma, and quite possibly the administering of EVERY DRUG KNOWN TO MAN in the last few days.  So what to do?  control her fever is #1...rehydrate her #2...Vitamin B complex/iron supplement #3...Probios #4...seperate her from EVERYONE else, and definitely from her father.  Give her all the hay and water she wants AND LEAVE HER ALONE...monitor but don't touch.  Give her a chance to work some of this toxic cocktail out of her system...Continue to treat her to keep her fever down until she stabilizes then start from square 1 in trying to attempt to diagnose her problem, if she even still has one...JMO...tough when you are inexperienced to know just who to listen to, sometimes even for experienced people, but if you are an animal owner you have the responsibility to try to do the best for the animal...  Good Luck with her


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2010)

freemo said:
			
		

> When in doubt, go with ice, not heat.  Heat can increase cellular damage (hypoxic injury, swelling) and ice will reduce swelling and injury.  I'd ice the poor goatie.    You just got my four hour class in a few paragraphs.


Cool.   



			
				roll said:
			
		

> If the blood were coming from her butt, I'd think it's a small, tiny possibility, but if it's coming from her vulva....I'd think uterine / bladder.
> 
> Any slight possibility she's bred and aborting from stress / illness?


If the blood were coming from her butt on account of unplugging a bunch of worms, it almost certainly wouldn't even be recognizable as blood..  Barberpoles live in the abomasum...by the time that blood reached the outside world (provided it wasn't absorbed by the intestines, which it probably would be), it would be black, mixed with poo, and totally unrecognizeable as blood.

Consequently, that's also why that's not a worm in the 400x photo...worms that dislodge are generally mascerated by the digestive process from the abomasum out, and 'eaten' by the goat's body.



			
				relics said:
			
		

> sounds like this girl is a walking pin cushion...the only thing I've picked up is that initially the goat had pale eyelids....*after that it is a blur*...
> ...
> the administering of EVERY DRUG KNOWN TO MAN in the last few days.
> ...
> ...


"Pincushion?"  "Toxic cocktail?"  Umm...so far as I can tell, she's had PenG, Banamine, Fenbendazole, and Ivermectin.   And she's had, what, maybe four or five shots so far?!?

OMGQWERTY!  

In reality, the pk profiles on FBZ and ivermectin aren't great when administered orally, so that stuff probably didn't reach big levels at all in the bloodstream..  No real "load" there..  PenG is about as harmless as an antibiotic gets; its margin of safety is basically like the broadside of a barn..  Never have I heard or read anything about systemic toxicity from PenG, and neither have you..  Banamine?...yeah, it can be a little rough, but it's not like she got dose after dose after dose of it..  She got one, and it's long gone by now..

Anyway..  :/

Telling someone to "leave her alone" but also to "control the fever" is not only contradictory, but also just plain bad advice..  Fever means infection -- you know that as well as I do, yet what you just suggested sounds a whole lot like "take her off antibiotics" to me.

Anybody ought to know better than to suggest that to someone with limited experience..

What I'd suggest to you, relics(), is to go back and re-read everything until it's not "a blur" before you go giving someone advice to take their goat off meds and start over simply because *you* got too confused about what was going on to offer any help.



			
				relics() said:
			
		

> tough when you are inexperienced to know just who to listen to


Uh, yeah..  Amen.  :/



			
				horsefly said:
			
		

> Okay I'm keeping all option open here.  What if it was a miscarage?  Anything I should be watching for/doing?  The blood definately isn't from when she poops.  I saw her pee up close and it was 100% normal.  Its just I see the blood on her legs, tail, and where she was laying.


If the blood's coming from her vulva, there's a good chance she aborted.  If not, then it could be a uterine infection like Roll said..  Or, I suppose it could still be a bladder infection..  

Heck, there's even the possibility that this is related to urinary calculi -- though I highly doubt it.

Still...she has a fever, and fever means infection.  She's on an antibiotic.  It may not be the optimal antibiotic, depending on where the infection is and what organism's causing it, but it's an antibiotic nonetheless..  

Keep that up..  If she doesn't respond in the next day or two, I'd probably assume it to be something *other* than a bladder infection and switch to oxytetracycline...  Oxytet's distributed widely throughout the body, and in the chance that this is an abortion related to chlamydia (the most common pathogenic cause), tetracyclines are the drug of choice for that anyway...  


How's her leg today?


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## jodief100 (Sep 23, 2010)

I do not think that is a worm.  It looks more like fibrous tissue to me, possibly uterine tissue.


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## ()relics (Sep 23, 2010)

thats exactly what I would do.  Control her fever, if she has any at all....or you could go to the local farm store and "shot gun" treat her with everything they had, yeah probably that is the way to go...I wonder if people do to their own goats what they suggest others do to theirs?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 23, 2010)

Once you start an antibiotic, you need to do the full course. If the goat has a fever, then you need to give her something to take care of the fever.


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## glenolam (Sep 23, 2010)

I should prolly shut my mouth, but why does it seem like almost every thread on this forum digresses from the OP's actual question and becomes a battle of 'Do This'...'Yeah, sounds good - NOT...Do That' to which lurkers and Just Borns are now persuaded not to ask questions for fear they'll be bashed or given sarcastic remedies?

I thought we were all here to support one another and help eachother determine solutions to problems?

ETA: I've been following this thread and declined to comment further because I'm not sure what else to provide for support.  To Horsefly - I hope she gets better.  You're doing what you think is right and should keep it that way.  If you ever feel as though what you're doing is "wrong", go with what your gut says.  None of us are there with you, so we can only help you by saying what "we" would do.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> thats exactly what I would do.  Control her fever, if she has any at all....or you could go to the local farm store and "shot gun" treat her with everything they had, yeah probably that is the way to go...I wonder if people do to their own goats what they suggest others do to theirs?


Nobody has suggested a shotgun treatment.  What's been suggested so far is deworming, antibiotics to control an infection, and an ice pack.  

And, yes, that's what I'd do to my own goat.

If you want to give yours half a course of PenG and then take it off because you get confused, fine.  Do that.  They're yours to kill, afterall.



			
				ksal said:
			
		

> Once you start an antibiotic, you need to do the full course. If the goat has a fever, then you need to give her something to take care of the fever.






			
				glenolam said:
			
		

> I thought we were all here to support one another and help eachother determine solutions to problems?


_Most of us_ are trying to do just that.  :/


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## Horsefly (Sep 23, 2010)

Thank you all for your advice and concern I like to see things from all sides.  I am not going to be just throwing meds at her that I don't know about.
She seems to be doing better today, I always think its a good think when your patient runs away from you.  I am going to give her 2 more doses of safeguard, tonight and tomorrow, and continue the penicillen for the full 7 days 2x a day.  Her leg seems to not be bothering her as much today but definately no more IM shots for her.
She still has bloody gooky stuff on her tail and has 2 big sloppy poops in her stall.  I'm guessing the poops are from a combo of antibiotics and wormer.  I guess she could of aborted something but there is no evidence of this in her stall or around where she hangs out.  
I'm letting her out with the others during the day because I feel she doesn't want to be left alone while they graze and she yells for them.  Considering everything she has been pretty perky.  She never was a goat to bother anyone and nobody ever bothered her so she just kind of hangs out under the trees.
I took her temp around 8 this morning and it was 104.5 and then just took it a little while ago and it was 103.4.  I didn't give her anything this morning (for the fever) and it seems to be comeing down by itself.  Last night I did give half and asprin and it brought the fever down.  
I'm just watching her for now and giveing the penicillen and something for the fever should it spike over high 104.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2010)

Ok, so it seems like we're making some progress on everything EXCEPT the scour...

I kinda doubt it's from the pen, dewormer, or the pen/dewormer combo.  Could be, but I personally doubt it.

Describe it for us, pleez.


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## Horsefly (Sep 23, 2010)

It isn't runny just like a big soft blob like cow poop.  Brownish green colored (more brown than green).  She is drinking and eating good though she has yet to show a full rummen.  Would it be a good idea to give her some probis about now?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 23, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> Thank you all for your advice and concern I like to see things from all sides.  I am not going to be just throwing meds at her that I don't know about.
> 
> She seems to be doing better today, I always think its a good think when your patient runs away from you.


Thrilled shes doing better!!!!   Fever going down!! Important!!  Glad to her your patient running away from you!!   
Good thing your not a doctor!!!!!    

Thats very positive news!!!

I too agree that many differant points of veiws help...and in the end..its you who makes the decision on what to do with that information.   We all need "devils advocates" sometimes..and need to be corrected and checked.  I do anyway!  I welcome constructive critisim. 

I believe most of us are trying to help...and truly have good intentions.  I think it could seem negative sometimes...but hashing it out and discussing only opens your mind to possibilities you may not have thought of.

Im thankful, for your sake and hers that her leg is doing better!  Its hard on you when you screw up and hurt them, as we all have done in one form or another.   Very valuable lesson learned w/ hind IM's    Many who read and didnt know..have been informed!! Thats positive too!!

Most important part is that your girls fevers going down.  She's having a good day dancing around and feeling a bit better!!!!   Yippie!!!!

Good luck to you both!!!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2010)

Ok, well that doesn't sound terribly worrisome..  You can try some probios, and it almost certainly wouldn't hurt anything, but I'd probably just focus on the antibiotics and count on doing some probios when that's over with.

That's just me, though..  I don't use probios NEARLY so much as it seems like some folks do..

I've read before that scours can accompany things like pneumonia, and it never made sense to me until I considered the fact that pneumonia's also usually accompanied by fever..  Given the goat's GI is dependent on "good" bacteria, and that fever is the body's way of rather indescriminantly killing bacteria (and viruses, etc), it kinda made me wonder if a simple fever could cause a ruminant to scour by killing off good gut bacteria right along with whatever "bad" bacteria may have invaded the body..?

I dunno the answer to that, mind you, but it makes sense to me that it could..


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 23, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok, well that doesn't sound terribly worrisome..  You can try some probios, and it almost certainly wouldn't hurt anything, but I'd probably just focus on the antibiotics and count on doing some probios when that's over with.
> 
> That's just me, though..  I don't use probios NEARLY so much as it seems like some folks do..


I agree....you could do probios???  But it will kinda get wasted while shes on antibiotics.  Kills the good bacteria in there too.  Some have alot of vitimins etc in it...so it wont hurt...but I always wait till the last day of pen then start probios to get the rumen up and running again...

I have also used cud from another goat to jump start a rumen.  But you should be aware of all medical issues before doing that...just in case!  So nevermind...DONT do that...


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## PJisaMom (Sep 23, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> I have also used cud from another goat to jump start a rumen.  But you should be aware of all medical issues before doing that...just in case!  So nevermind...DONT do that...


Now _that's_ interesting... especially to a newbie-goat-geek-wannabe like myself.  

For one... how the heck do you steal a cud from another goat?  

Horsefly... glad your goatie seems to be on the mend!  You're doing a great job!  

Paula


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 23, 2010)

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You mean you hav'nt gotten cud on you yet???  LOL  

When they cough it up and their cheeks are really full just go in there and get it!  You can squeez (lightly) on there cheek and it moves around their mouth...watch em while hangin out and chewing their cud...you'll see it in thier mouths...its really not are hard as it sounds...

Just watch your fingers...dont let the back teeth get a hold of them...it hurts!!!


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## Roll farms (Sep 23, 2010)

An extremely early abortion / miscarriage wouldn't leave much 'evidence' aside from blood / lumps of tissue that are pretty indestinguishable.

Keep up the Pen G.  Probios won't hurt, might help.  I like the powdered form, just b/c it's easier to sprinkle on their food.

Good luck w/ her.


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## Horsefly (Sep 23, 2010)

Okay, on Tuesday evening when all this trouble began my Dad saw her squat to pee and after she peed he said some chunks of blood came out and then she pooped, then she walked away looking releaved.  He told me about it and I didn't think from his description the "chunks" of blood would still be around anywhere and that it was of any consequince.  Well today my brother goes oh yeah, there's the spot Daddy saw the chunks of blood come out at.  I went to see and found some flies and ants on a dried up thing.  I poked around on it and discovered it had a skeleton (or rather parts of a skeleton).  So I guess she really had gotten pregnant and aborted.  The kid was 4 or 5 inches long and you can kind of see the structure of the whole skeleton, how far along do you think it was?  It's sad but I really am glad she aborted it, there is no way she could of carried it full term with out dieing herself. 
Sooo lesson learned, Mr Buck is going bye bye this weekend and not getting near her.  So now we know a definate cause of all this, what do I do now?  Should I continue antibiotics and all?  Could there be anything left inside her?  This will not happen again but I need to know how to handle it now that it has.  Thank you all for bearing with me this long.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 23, 2010)

Do the full course of antibiotics. I would think she should clean up fine on her own.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2010)

Hmm...  So, we *know* it was an abortion at this point, and now she's feverish.  The only thing I'd be concerned with would be that something -- placenta, another kid, etc -- was retained and that she's developing an infection on account of that.

Having said that, I think I'd probably call a vet and see what they think..  They may want to give you something (oxytocin, perhaps?) to make her expel whatever's left, if there is anything.  They may even want to do an ultrasound, now that I'm thinking about it..

OR...they may advise that you just continue the antibiotics (I'd switch to oxytetracycline at this point, personally) and give her a day or so to see if she improves.

It's worth a call, I think...I'd call, if I were you.


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## glenolam (Sep 23, 2010)

I called the vet for our heifer cows after they took 2 weeks to expel their placentas.  It was the day after they calved specifically requested oxytocin and the vet said they don't do oxytocin anymore because it would need to be administered within an hour or two after birth and it really didn't do any good at that point anyway (so "recent studies suggested").  His suggestion _(for cows, mind you)_ was to watch for sypmtoms of illness - fever, off pasture/feed, lying down a lot etc.  If sypmtoms arose (thankfully, in our case it never did) then we needed to administer an antibiotic.

Does anyone know if that's the same for goats?

Horsefly - I'm really sorry to hear about the abortion, but sometimes nature takes it's own course for a reason as I'm sure you know.

I agree with continuing the antibiotics until it's completed then assess the situation...unless, of course, her fever persists throughout the process.

A question I have - will a fever persist, and fluctuate as much as hers has throughout the antibiotic treatment or should it go down and stay down?  Seems to me like she's on a temperature roller coaster and I have no idea if that's good or not.

Just a thought of something that Horsefly should be looking out for....


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## Horsefly (Sep 23, 2010)

Okay, I will try and call the vet school in the morning but I don't know if they can do anything for us.  What is Oxytetracycline?  Can I get that over the counter or do I need a vet to get it for me?  She had fever again, 105.3, so I gave her childs ibuprofen and will check again in an hour to see if it worked.  I'm going to keep doing the penicilen until I get another antibiotic.  This fever is driving me nuts, if only it would go away I am sure she would be fine.


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## Roll farms (Sep 23, 2010)

Ok, my feeling here is that she miscarried as a result of fever / illness / possible worm overload...I don't think the miscarriage is the *cause*, I think it's an inevitable result OF the illness....and yes, probably for the best.

BUT...that's just the 'gut feeling' I get and it's not like we can ask her....

I would do a 10 day course of Pen G (what my vet recommends / what I've used w/ uterine issues in the past), and keep up on the deworming from here on out.  Keep checking her temp to make sure it doesn't spike...be on the lookout for foul smelling or greenish discharge and lethargic behavior.
I'd definitely give her some probios when the course of Pen G is over, and then take her temp and keep a close eye on her for a couple of days post-treatment to make sure she doesn't relapse.

Good luck!

eta that Oxytocin is a waste of time this much past the time she kidded.  If she's still eating / acting ok, and her fever's going down, and no foul discharge, I wouldn't be concerned that there are complications.  It sounds like a "normal" abortion.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 24, 2010)

Oxytetracycline is an OTC antibiotic.  You can get it at most farm stores..  My personal preference is for one called "Bio-Mycin 200" because it doesn't sting, but it's basically impossible to find these days.  Other brands are LA-200 (way easy to find), Agrimycin 200, Duramycin 72-200, etc..  

The dosage I use is 3-4ml/100lbs, 1x/day for 5 days.

However...if Roll's had luck using PenG for metritis in the past, and if that's what her doc recommends, keep on truckin' with the PenG for now..  If, at some point, you start to get the feeling that giving PenG is the equivalent of peeing directly into a stiff breeze because she's just not improving, _then_ you might consider a switch to oxytet.  

Or, better yet, have her checked out by a vet..

How is she this morning?  Any better?


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## Horsefly (Sep 24, 2010)

I am really really happy to report that Buttercup's temp this morning was 101.9!  Finally, thats the lowest it has been since this started and she was obviously feeling it.  It was fun to give her her shot this morning... not.  Throughout this whole thing she has been extra interested in their salt and mineral lick, could she be defficient in something?  I might still try calling a vet today if I can find one.  I guess the Pen G is working and will stick with that for the rest of the doses unless she relapses.  I'm going to get a B complex shot later today and give that to her too, couldn't hurt.
I did have one question about giving her her shot.  I've been doing it under the skin by her "armpit" but I'll poke her pull back and then start slowly pushing it in.  But after .5-1cc its like the plunger won't push anymore and I have to ajust the needle or repoke somewhere else.  What am I doing wrong?


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## warthog (Sep 24, 2010)

Horsefly, I have been following this post, haven't posted anything, because nothing constructive to add.

But I am so glad she is feeling better.


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## Horsefly (Sep 24, 2010)

Well she isn't all so great tonight.  All day she has been walking around and eating with the other goats, doing all those normal goatie things.  I couldn't get ahold of a vet but didn't try hard as I thought the worst was over and she was getting better.  I went out to feed them this evening and she was laying down and when she stood up to come over I noticed she was bottlejawed.  I have never seen that before but from what I have read before there is no mistake as to what it was.  Also the skin under her tail that is usually pink was white.  She doesn't look as skinny today as she has been eating all day. 
Sooo now what?  I gave her the safeguard anyway, don't know if that was the right thing or not but I figured she was already wormed enough alittle more couldn't hurt.  She got her pen G shot and temp taken.  She had 103.9 and I went back out several hours later and it was 104.0.  I didn't give anything for the fever, it seems like in the mornings it is low and by the time I take it at night she has a fever again.  She had some white liquidy type discharge when I went and checked her a little while ago, she hasn't had too much blood today.
I did buy some B complex from TSC today.  What is the dose for her for that?  Also I had tried to get this from another feed store yesterday and what they gave me was refrigerated and like $16.  I remebered it only being like $3 and on a shelf at TSC so I got that today.  Is it the right thing? I haven't given it to her yet, figured I'd see what my response was here first.
I have a great vet that does my dogs and he does large animals in the afternoons.  I'm going to call him in the morning and see if he could tell me anything to do.  Of course now it is the weekend...


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## Roll farms (Sep 25, 2010)

We had a doe get extremely anemic a few years ago from Barberpole.  I first hit her w/ a double dose of ivermectin, orally...then I waited 3 days and dewormed her w/ safeguard for 3 days in a row.  (My vet told me to...)  We gave her Red Cell daily, around 1 cc per 20#.  The vet also suggested I supplement her feed w/ Calf Manna as it's high in copper and iron.  It took a while for her to recover, but she did.
2 weeks after the first ivermectin, she got another dose....then we had a fecal ran.  It was better than the 1st one, but still showed a lot of eggs, so we continued to treat her w/ ivermectin and safeguard for 6 weeks total.

I'd give her 5 cc of the B shot daily.
I give it in the muscle, it's not as thick or as 'risky' as pen G is.

I did sell that doe because she was the only one who got such a bad worm infestation and I didn't want to 'breed' more like her.  Her full sister, living in the same conditions, never got sick....and still doesn't.

Also, I read what you'd posted about "salt and mineral lick"....most goats will do better w/ a loose mineral, it's hard for them to 'lick' the blocks enough to get what they need....she may be trying to up her copper or iron intake.

Good luck!


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## Horsefly (Sep 25, 2010)

Okay I'll try and get the red cell and some loose mineral for her.  Her temp was 102.4 and she was perky as ever, still bottle jawed though not as much as last night.  I gave her 5cc B complex, pen G, and her supplement.  She is actually pretty good about it all, doesn't fight too much.
Should I keep up the same thing I've been doing?  Safeguard the last time tonight and then ivomec  5 days from now?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 27, 2010)

How is she this morning?

You mentioned that she wasn't as bottlejawed in the morning as she was in the evening...that's typical, and it isn't necessarily any indication of improvement/deterioration.  What we see with 'bottlejaw' is simply edema...fluid, collecting under the skin.  The reason it occurs is because her "packed cell volume" -- the percentage of red blood cells in a given unit of blood -- is so low that her blood is almost all plasma.  Plasma is thinner than "normal" blood, and so it literally just leaks out of the capillaries and collects under the skin.    

When she grazes all day, the fluid (plasma) collects under the loose skin around her head and neck for no other reason than gravity, simply because she's got her nose to the ground all day..  When she lays down for the night, however, the fluid drains back down and she seems improved by the morning.  By that evening, however, if she's been out grazing, she'll likely appear to be badly swollen again.  

Have you found Red Cell yet?  The iron it contains would be very, very helpful to her right now.  I'd probably load her up w/ a 6ml syringe full 1x/day for about a week, it she were my goat.


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## Horsefly (Sep 27, 2010)

She is feeling really good today, it took me 10 minutes to catch her this morning because she slipped past me into the pasture from the stall.  I did't bother taking her temp this morning.  
I tried to call our vet saturday and they were closed and I didn't want an extra weekend charge.  So I decided to wait till today, well we called and the lady was mean and "He won't see a goat", they won't even do a fecal for us.  Sooo our internet was down all morning and we just got it back so we are e-mailing the vet school now to see if they can do anything for us.  At least someone should be able to do a fecal, right?
I have been researching Alot on the internet and I have found people mentioning some different wormers.  Should I get another wormer for her in case the ivomec or safeguard didn't work for her worms?  Also I see people give iron supplements.  
I haven't gotton the red cell yet but will call the feed store later and see if it is in stock.  Today is the last day of pen G and as her temp has been normal the last few days so I think any infection or whatever she had is gone.  I gave her her last dose of safeguard friday night, the night she went bottle jaw.  She has been getting a B complex shot in the morning, started that Saturday and will do it for 2 more days.  Friday it will be 10 days since the ivomec and I will dose her again with that.  All through this she has been getting that Dyne supplement 2x a day and I will keep giving it to her at least till the bottle jaw goes away.


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## jodief100 (Sep 27, 2010)

Red Cell is an iron supplement so that will cover it.  Give her the Ivomectin tonight.  I would hit her with another, stronger wormer in about 7-10 days unless you can get a fecal and some specific answers.  Cydectin is usually a good one.  Levamisole (Prohibit for sheep) is hard to find but still works almost everywhere.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 27, 2010)

I agree, but I'd hit her with 2ml of ivermectin this time.  To have developed bottlejaw *after* a good round of deworming w/ two classes of dewormers indicates to me that either your worm population is pretty daggone resistant to BZD and ML class dewormers, or perhaps the goat's heavier than she seems to be.

Either way, the 'fix' is upping the dosage.  I'd give 2ml of ivermectin.

Personally, I'd probably also give about 4-5ml of Safe-Guard and continue that for several more days.  But that's me..

I'm also with Jodie on hitting her with something stronger in 7-10 days..  Cydectin is a good place to start.  I personally use the injectable Cydectin as an oral drench @ 1ml/50lbs....or thereabout.  And by "or thereabout," what I mean is that I'd just give her at last a solid 1ml of it.  

I don't know that I'd have the cajones to hit a bottlejawed goat with Prohibit...  Once the edema goes away, maybe, but probably not before then.

Even *I'm* not that crazy.  

Definitely do the Red Cell, also!  She really, really needs that right now.


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## jodief100 (Sep 27, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I don't know that I'd have the cajones to hit a bottlejawed goat with Prohibit...  Once the edema goes away, maybe, but probably not before then.


I figured if the edema hasn't gone away in 7-10 days after a course of Safeguard and 2 doses of Ivomectin than she isn't walking this earth anymore.  I could be wrong; I have only had to deal with bottle jaw once.

I am VERY concerned about the possibility of worm resistance here since she developed bottle jaw after the round of worming.  I hope you can find a vet to help you because this may by symptomatic of a long term problem with resistant worms.


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## Horsefly (Sep 27, 2010)

We have an appointment for the vet tomorrow.  The only thing is that the bottle jaw is better today than it was yesterday, she looked like a balloon then but just has a swelling under the jaw today.  As soon as I find someone to see her she gets better, but I would still rather her better .  Maybe it just took the worms awhile to respond to the wormers?  I gave her another dose of ivomec today like yall suggested, along with her last penecillin shot.  If anything this has made me alot more comfortable giving shots.  We will see what the vet says tomorrow.
I'm trying to do my own fecal, just because, and I'm waiting for the solution to set right now before I get to go look at it.  I used the directions off the fiasco farm site.  I'm going to compair my results with the vets and see how accurate I am.  I can post some pictures of my slide if I find any eggs if anyone would be interested in seeing what they look like.


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## Beekissed (Sep 27, 2010)

I would!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> I can post some pictures of my slide if I find any eggs if anyone would be interested in seeing what they look like.


Lots of folks would be interested, I'm sure.  I would be.   

I suspect that what you're going to find are lots and lots of these:






That's a haemonchus contortus (aka barberpole worm) egg.  If she has bottlejaw, she's overrun with barberpole worms...that's what barberpole worms are known for.  You'll sometimes hear references to a disease called "acute haemonchosis ," which is just a sciency sounding name for having lots and lots of barberpole worms..  Bottlejaw is one of the hallmarks.

BTW...if the vet does a fecal only to come back and say "It's hookworms" -- here's why:






They look almost identical to barberpole eggs, huh?

I've seen several instances where folks will take a goat to a vet who's more familiar with dogs and cats only to come back to the forum and say "The vet said he/she had hookworms."

Based on the images, it's pretty obvious *why* that happens, huh?!?

So...if that happens...don't be fooled.


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## Horsefly (Sep 28, 2010)

Today she is 100% normal looking, go figure.  She is still whited out but I assume that is going to take awhile to go away.  We might take her in still and at least get a fecal done.
Here are my pictures from last night, I think I didn't disolve the epsom salt in the water enough to make my flotation solution.  There were mostly salt crystals on my slide but I did find a few "other things".  From the pictures on the site though these things were really small, I had to go to 100-400x to take them.  So I'm not even going to garanty that they are even eggs.  Maybe I'll try again with a better salt solution later.


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## freemotion (Sep 28, 2010)

Hey, can we start a new thread for this?  It will be close to impossible to find these pictures a year from now, what with all the wormy threads on this forum.  Cool pictures.  

To make the epsom salt flotation solution, you need to start at least a day in advance, and keep adding salt and shaking it until no more salt will dissolve.  Then work fast with your slides as the salt will crystalize as the slides dry, so you have about 15-20 minutes or so to get that slide looked at, depending on the humidity in your room.

Please-please-please, new thread with something like "fecal slide pictures" in the title?


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## glenolam (Sep 29, 2010)

How is she doing, btw?


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## Horsefly (Sep 29, 2010)

No bottle jaw and pink this morning!!!   She wasn't too happy when I gave her her shot this morning and detained her from joining the other goats.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 29, 2010)

That's great to hear!


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## Horsefly (Oct 1, 2010)

Well Buttercup has been acting fine and doing all goatie things lately but she is still all whited out.  I thought she was getting pink one day but it still seems white to me now.  So we are getting the red cell (on order) and I'm thinking of getting something to treat for coccidia, from the fecal I "tried" to do I think the eggs I found most closely resembled coccidia.  So I'm looking on the jeffers website and earlier CM had mentioned DiMethox so I was wondering about this product http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&mscssid=XJT536NNW4W29N9VK2PTP3EAA81SARN3 .  It is DiMethox soluble powder, I think you are suposed to put it in their water?  How do you know they get the right dose and would it hurt if all the goats drank it?
I also want to get a different wormer, it seems with all the worming she has had she should be showing some pink by now.  I am going to give her some more safeguard tonight but need a name of another drug to try.
*ETA I'm making an order with jeffers so anything I should add to it (skin stapler etc. )


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## cmjust0 (Oct 1, 2010)

Horsefly said:
			
		

> Well Buttercup has been acting fine and doing all goatie things lately but she is still all whited out.  I thought she was getting pink one day but it still seems white to me now.  So we are getting the red cell (on order)


 on the Red Cell.

FWIW, I'm fairly convinced that overall hydration can mean the difference between pale pink and white in a goat that's on the edge anyway..  If she's well hydrated, you may see some pink, and if not, she may look white again.

And I'm not saying she's gotta be clinically dehydrated to go back white...could be as simple as her having been really well hydrated when you saw the pink before.

And, as crazy as this seems, the ambient lighting conditions also play a role in what *you* see when you check eyelids..  Personally, I think there outta be a standardized "FAMACHA light" or something to level the playing field between a dark barn and a bright, sunny pasture..

Anyway..  



> and I'm thinking of getting something to treat for coccidia, from the fecal I "tried" to do I think the eggs I found most closely resembled coccidia.  So I'm looking on the jeffers website and earlier CM had mentioned DiMethox so I was wondering about this product http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=2&mscssid=XJT536NNW4W29N9VK2PTP3EAA81SARN3 .  It is DiMethox soluble powder, I think you are suposed to put it in their water?  How do you know they get the right dose and would it hurt if all the goats drank it?


Coccidia are also blood suckers, and I've heard of goats getting anemic from coccidia..  I'd say that's not the case here, but...meh...it won't hurt anything to treat for coccidia anyway.

As for the soluble powder, it'll work, but you wouldn't want to give it as directed on the label.  You'll definitely want more control over how much she gets than you could attain by mixing it into their drinking water, which means you'd have to mix it up and drench her with it in measured doses.

Based on the net weight vs. total grams of medication, the soluble powder would seem to be around 88% pure dimethox and 12% inert ingredients.  The dosage is 25mg/lb of bodyweight on day one, and as I recall, you said your gal was around 35lbs.  That means she'd need 875mg on day one.  That's 0.875 grams.  If you divide that by 0.88 (to get the total med weight, including inerts), it comes to 0.994 grams -- basically 1 gram.  Pretty convenient, actually!   On days 2-5, the dosage is cut in half, so she'd require 0.5g of the powder.  

Still...that's a cumulative total of a scant 3g used out of a total 107g package over the course of the five days..  Obviously, you'd be dealing in _miniscule_ amounts of the stuff.  So, unless you have a pretty daggone good digital gram scale (I do, and I'd recommend one to everyone.  ), trying to get accurage dosages with the powder would be difficult at best.

If you're up for it, awesome!  If not...probably best to either buy the 12.5% drinking water solution (125mg/ml) or the 40% injectable (400mg/ml) and drench right out of the jug with one of those.



> I also want to get a different wormer, it seems with all the worming she has had she should be showing some pink by now.  I am going to give her some more safeguard tonight but need a name of another drug to try.
> *ETA I'm making an order with jeffers so anything I should add to it (skin stapler etc. )


The next big step up from ivermectin is moxidectin.  Brand name, Cydectin.  I use the injectable form orally @ 1ml/50lbs.  What I've read seems to indicate that moxidectin is effective against about 50% of barberpoles that have become resistant to ivermectin..  What I've seen, personally, kinda backs that up -- it is "stronger," and it does tend to work where ivermectin kinda doesn't.

However...  

The lack of pink may as much to do with erythropoietic stress as the possibility of an ongoing worm load.  I'm not saying that's the case _necessarily_, and it probably won't hurt to move on to a stronger wormer now that she's been through a few rounds of milder wormers, so keep that in mind..  What I am saying is that some goats just take longer to "pink back up" than others.

It's important to understand that most goats don't simply go white as soon as the barberpoles start having an impact..  Some will go white faster than others, and some may never go white at all..  In fact, if a goat has a high level of erythropoietic resilience -- that is, a strong ability to make new red blood cells in response to losing a bunch of them -- it may maintain good eyelid color yet still be absolutely RIDDLED with barberpole worms!  

That's a problem for people like myself who depend entirely on FAMACHA -- but I digress...that's a whole different subject.  

The point is that any goat is going to at least *try* to compensate for the loss of RBCs by kicking their EP systems into high gear as the worms steal their RBCs.  So when you see them whiting out, what you're really seeing is evidence of the goat's EP system being outrun by the barberpoles.

Now, how long does it take the goat's EP system to recover to a normal RBC level, even in the absence of worms?  Well, that really just depends on the goat, the goat's diet, certain vitamin and mineral reserves, etc..

That's why Red Cell is good stuff.    As the name suggests, it was basically designed to sorta prop-up the EP system, and my own experience suggests that it does a pretty daggone good job of it.


To recap...since I'm a rambler......treating for coccidia probably isn't a bad idea, nor is deworming more aggressively, but be aware that Red Cell may end up being one of the key components to getting this lil' gal (and her erythropoietic system) back up and firing on all 8 cylinders.


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## Roll farms (Oct 1, 2010)

I use that powder.  

I mix the package w/ 1.5 cups of warm - not hot - water (in an empty soda bottle...don't inhale the dust, it tastes NASTY!  Shake well) and the dosage I use now* (and have had good results with) is 1 cc per 10# the first day, then 1 cc per 20# daily for 4 more days.

If your goat weighs 35# that'd be 3.5 cc on day one, then just under 2 cc daily the next 4 days, for a total of 5 days of treatment.

I would repeat in 14 days.

Keep the leftover mix in the fridge for up to 1 year.  Shake well before you use it again.

It tastes gross and they WILL spit it right out if you don't get it pretty far back in their mouth.

*Fiasco suggests mixing the powder w/ 3 cups of water and then dosing at 1 cc per 5# on day one, then 1 cc per 10# thereafter. 

That was the dosage I used for a few years....then I cut the water and dosage amounts in half a couple of years ago because it seemed silly to water it down more, and give more medicine, since they hate the taste so much.  

I didn't 'do the math' and come up w/ any sort of accurate dosage, because many moons ago when I needed the info, Fiasco was all there was and I trusted what the site said back then...  I'm only mentioning Fiasco as my original source for dosing info...not stating an endorsement, or wanting to open the 'fiasco farms' can of worms again.


eta....CM, I gotta poke at you a little....it was only a year ago you were saying "Red Cell is evil" when I suggested it to someone....and I had to argue w/ you about it and prove that it no longer contained animal byproducts....now you're pushing it's use.   Times, they are a changin'...


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## cmjust0 (Oct 4, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> eta....CM, I gotta poke at you a little....it was only a year ago you were saying "Red Cell is evil" when I suggested it to someone....and I had to argue w/ you about it and prove that it no longer contained animal byproducts....now you're pushing it's use.   Times, they are a changin'...


_Double quotes_ around "Red Cell is evil"...really?...you went with *double* quotes?  Couldn't you at least have _single_ quoted it to at least _imply_ that you were paraphrasing?

 

For the record:  

There were times then when I *wanted* to use it, but wouldn't, because "this one certain website" (  ) noted that Red Cell contained ruminant animal byproducts and that it was against federal law to use it on ruminant animals..  And it wasn't even the legal part that worried me so much as the possibility of scrapie..  

So, having never bothered to waste my money on something I wouldn't be able to use, I never actually had a bottle to look at..  That's when someone...relics(), maybe?...pointed out that Red Cell had changed their formula like *5 years ago* to remove the ruminant parts, and that it was once again safe for goats.

Having said that, I don't even feel inclined to plead ignorance on this one.    I'm pleading...erm...letsee..._ignorance by proxy?_


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## Roll farms (Oct 4, 2010)

It was moi who pointed it out...w/ proof....jes sayin'...


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## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2010)




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## Misssc (Oct 17, 2010)

So I just found this thread and wanted to  offer suggestions based on my own experience.

If your goat is still pale,  I would separate her from the rest of the herd permanently.  If she has a persistent problem with parasites and you let her run with the rest of the goats you are risking an increased parasite load to the other animals, because the pasture is being continuously re-infested.  You need to pay especially close attention to young animals  as they can get hit hard, fast.  I would check the herd every two weeks.  

Also, check her for lice!  Lice can and do cause anemia.  Part her hair and you can easily see them if she is infested.

If she is still thin you should also consider tapeworm.  Valbazen will kill tape, but it can not be given to pregnant animals.  

I hope she is doing better.


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