# In-Breeding and Line-breeding



## mystang89 (Jun 21, 2018)

I have a small flock of sheep and will continue to have a small flock of sheep, 6 ewes max and 2 rams.  I started out this venture with only 2 ewes, unrelated, and 1 ram, unrelated.  I will not be able to outsource any ram to breed the ewes I have since any ram of the same breed would be too far away, to my knowledge, so I will be left with in breeding.  

I'm not opposed to it.  In fact, I've done it without any problems with my rabbits for years now.  However, with the rabbits I've been able to get some fresh blood in every once in a while.  I browsed the forums and came across this jewel of information https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/need-help-lines-of-breeding-when-to-not-breed.17226/ .  So much helpful info there but I'm still left with questions.

First off, what are some good traits to look for and what are some bad traits to watch out for?  I first got into sheep for the milk so milk production would be a definite but I think I read somewhere on there that after a few generations of line/in-breeding milk production and growth would start to decline regardless.  Is there a way to keep this from happening other than getting fresh blood?

Secondly, I'd like to come as close to full blood as possible.  I don't know if that's possible with what I have but I'm sure someone here can tell me.

Thirdly, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the safest way of breeding what I have at the moment.  It will give me a bit of insight as to how people who do this normally breed.  My pedigree is as follows:

Betsy (ewe 7037) 75% awassi.  Her dam is 3062.  Her sire was  full blooded awassi.
Clara (ewe7029) 75% awassi.  Her sire was full blooded awassi and the same sire as Betsy's.  Her dam was 3081.  So it seems Betsy and Clara are related at least by their Sire...so have sisters?
Bruce (Ram 9170) 50% awassi. Sire was full blooded Awassi, not same as the ewe's sire.  Dam is 1034.
Tina (ewe 1) ? awassi.  Dam is Betsy 7037, sire is Bruce 9170.
Sunny (ram 2) ? awassi.  Dam is Betsy 7037, sire is Bruce 9170.
Liberty (ram 3) ? awassi.  Dam is Clara 7029, sire is Bruce 9170.
Given this information, how would you mate these together?  I am not afraid of bad genetics in the form of aggression, behavior, or even milking amounts.  All those are easily controlled by culling.  What I am afraid of is the more difficult to determine bad genetics such as not being as resistant to foot rot, more susceptible to diseases etc.  Those health issues which you don't know about till too late and some of which can be easily spread to others who normally wouldn't have to worry about them are what I am afraid of unleashing.

Also, unless Betsy gains some weight back and her body condition improves, she will not be mated back this year.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and any information given is information gained.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 22, 2018)

Give me a bit to map it out.


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## Latestarter (Jun 22, 2018)

Yes, Clara and Betsy are 1/2 sisters due to a shared sire but different dam.

Tina, Sunny, and Liberty will all be 62.5% Awassi (75% (dam) + 50% (sire) / 2 = 62.5%) If you continue to breed them back to a/your 75% _Corrected from buck to_ *RAM*, they will never get higher than 75% Awassi and it will take 6 generations of breeding to get them close (within 3% or 97% of the 75%).

From my limited research, as a general rule, it's not a good idea to breed siblings. Father daughter or mother son is acceptable and done routinely. That being the case, Sunny and Liberty would be best as freezer fillers, unless they are exceptional animals. If you breed them back you will be limiting the max percentage to 62.5% vice the 75% you presently have. From my understanding you want to keep inbreeding down to 2-3 generations.

If your goal is to get to near 100%, you need a 100% _Corrected from buck to_ *RAM*. The _Corrected from buck to_ *RAM*, is the single most important part of your breeding program as he's responsible for 50% of your herd.


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## Mini Horses (Jun 22, 2018)

I would suggest you buy/rent/trade a buck, sell/trade/consume one of those you have.  With breeding, the buck will be the most influence over the full herd.   Another option to buy a bred ewe from totally different lines.

Have you researched where you might find others?


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 22, 2018)

I agree with latestarter about needing a 100% ram.  Also you need someone to help you with conformation and how it relates to production longevity.   Dairy goat/cow have a linear appraisal system that puts a numerical value on a train so it can be tracked.  With production being a goal you have to pay attention to udder attachment, teat size/placement and so forth.  Not saying you can not do it, just that you sound a bit new to dairy and in need of mentor.  If it were me, I would find local dairy goat breeders to learn from ?? And get linear appraisal info from ADGA and cow folks.  

I don't know anything of Awassi history here in USA.  How diverse was original imports?   Too many times the demand outstrips supply and quality suffers.  I watched this happen with Boer goat breeders that paid $1000s for what I would cull to freezer.

Supply in future may be more available, too.  Have a 'five year plan'. to use what you got, do research to find 100% ram, save $$$ for purchase and trip.   Maybe even get more than one ram at that time.  By culling ruthlessly in five years you should easily have 30 nice ewes.


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## Latestarter (Jun 22, 2018)

I know there's a lot of time, travel, expense involved with getting a replacement ram but it's that important to your overall flock and what you want that flock to be. You can get a 100% ram for the one time high cost/expense, and then use him for 2-3 years. At that point, you can then sell that ram for a replacement ram-genetics.


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## mysunwolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Folks, just to clarify there are no 100% Awassi animals in this country, only 99.9%. I haven't heard of anyone importing any stock, just semen. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I personally would cross Lacaune in if you are really going for milk production, since from my understanding Awassi don't actually produce very long, though they do have great milk and add parasite resistance. But if you really want to stay with high % Awassi, go for it. 

Breed your ram to everyone one more year, you can even save the line-bred offspring if they look nice, then either buy/rent another guy and change up who they are bred to (breed Bruce's daughters to New Guy, and breed Bruce back to all the girls unrelated) or sell Bruce and just use New Guy to breed. I agree that unless Sunny and Liberty are really amazing in multiple ways, they should be eaten. 

There is no points system for dairy sheep, and dairy sheep do differ quite a bit from dairy goats in conformation and in udder. But some things can be translated. Contrary to what some will tell you, it's really more about breeding for what you consider important characteristics. Do you prize milkiness above all else? First breed for overall good sheep: good health, udders, milking ability, parasite resistance, hooves, lamb weights, etc. And get a larger gene pool. Then cull mercilessly. This works if you have time. I agree that a mentor, hopefully familiar with dairy sheep, would be best if possible.


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## Baymule (Jun 22, 2018)

Agree that the two ram lambs should be freezer meat or sold. Keep Betsy, Clara and Tina, breed them to Bruce. You might be able to add a couple of ewes to your flock. Breed the trio back to Bruce. Keep the ewe lambs. Do what you have to do to get the best ram you can. Sell Bruce or slaughter him. At the same time you buy a new ram, get1 or 2 ewe lambs if you can afford it. 

Breed all ewes to new ram. Now you can cull. Keep the best. Since you want 6 ewes, you only need one ram. Get the ewes you want and the ram you want. Sell or slaughter offspring. When a ewe starts getting old, keep a ewe lamb from her.


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## Baymule (Jun 22, 2018)

I kept a ram lamb born in December 2017. He is unrelated to 3 of my ewes. He is half brother to 3, full brother to 2 and I have his mom. I will use him for 1 or 2 lambings, then off to freezer camp and I'll buy a ram. Aiming for a registered Katahdin ram. I also plan on buying 2-3 registered ewes.

I will cull hard on the lambs. All ram lambs will be wethered and slaughtered. The ewe lambs that make the cut will be kept. Maybe none of them will make the cut, we'll see. 

I want 10 ewes that consistently have twins, give birth unassisted, have lots of milk and raise their babies. 

Linebreeding-when you breed related animals and it all goes right.

Inbreeding-when you breed related animals and it all goes WRONG.


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## mystang89 (Jun 22, 2018)

Just wanted to say thank you to all we go have responded. I'm trying to digest everything said, then base my questions on that.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 27, 2018)

I agree with everything everyone has said.  With only 3 ewes you do not need 3 rams.  Since Bruce is the only ram you can use on all 3 ewes put the other rams in freezer.  Breed Bruce to ewes trying for ewe lambs and keep all the ewes. What was the reason for going with Awassis?  If there are particular reasons for choosing a breed which is difficult to find replacement stock in your area, make sure you keep that as your focus in your breeding plan. 

The ram is 50% of the herd so you want to get a new ram as soon as possible once you have built up the number of ewes.  Since the purest Awassi you can get is 99.97% try for one of them  If you want milking sheep, and can't get a 99.97% Awassi, get an Awassi crossed with another milk breed which fits your specifications. 

Since you live far from any possible Awassi breeders, contact even far away breeders via their websites.  Call and talk to them gathering all info you can on conformation to look for, etc.  Most dairy animals have 50 points of the conformation in the udder attachments, teats, etc.  Once you know what you want in a stud ram, see if the breeder will ship.  You can ship 3 month old rams and bucks on airlines that ship dogs and other animals.  Make sure that you conform to the health requirements.  Many breeders will take orders for breeding stock ahead of time and you can pick it up when old enough.  Or plan a road trip to pick up the ram.  Depending on how far you have to travel, a 3 month old ram can ride comfortably in an extra large dog crate. 

Final step - CULL, CULL, CULL!  Oh yes! and have fun!


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## Mini Horses (Jun 27, 2018)

I see some breeders in Illinois & Wisconsin.  If I wanted the breed, I would not consider that too far to travel for them.  Even ship them.  One had a fullblood Awassi ram kid for sale, brown.  Australia & New Zealand ship semen.   Of course, you will need a vet and $$$.   I'd check out these other farms first.  Where did you obtain you stock?  

 I see a milk goat breeder listing forming at  http://www.milkingsheep.com/dairy-sheep-breeder-directory/   Some Awassi blood there  not sure of % as many times crossbred is most available.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 27, 2018)

I drove from California to Texas to obtain the LGD I wanted.  Twice.  I will be driving to Virginia from California for my 3rd LGD.  Maybe you could combine it with a vacation trip.  Do sightseeing on the way to the ranch, pick up the ram and hightail it for home.


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## mysunwolf (Jun 28, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> I drove from California to Texas to obtain the LGD I wanted.  Twice.  I will be driving to Virginia from California for my 3rd LGD.  Maybe you could combine it with a vacation trip.  Do sightseeing on the way to the ranch, pick up the ram and hightail it for home.



Let us know before you go, I may need some stock from CA!


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 28, 2018)

If you do your taxes with farm as a business you can write off trip to pick up a ram or a dog as expense.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 28, 2018)

Yes, we do that.  What stock do you want from California?  If we were pulling the stock trailer to pick up livestock no problem.  But we are taking our 5th wheel to Fort Worth, spending some time visiting friends, then sightseeng into VA. We will pick up the puppy (4 months when we arrive), return through Austin (Leander) to visit Erick Conard.  We can travel with the dog in the truck and crate her at night in the trailer, but won't have the stock trailer.  We will be several weeks on the road traveling to VA.


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## mysunwolf (Jun 28, 2018)

Some nice dairy breeders out that way, but it would be adult ewes so no go without the trailer. I hate the idea of leaving my property for the length of time needed for a cross-country road trip, but if I didn't have the animals it sounds like it would be fun!


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## Ridgetop (Jun 28, 2018)

Is there anyone that can house sit and ranch sit?  May be you can house trade with another BYH person who wants to visit the east coast for a vacation?  Of course that wouldn't be much of a vacation!  LOL 

Is there an AG college around you?  FFA or 4-H groups that might be able to do the work for pay.  If you are milking you will need milkers but if you plan for when the girls are dry . . . ?


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## Ridgetop (Jun 28, 2018)

Or if you could ship, you could get lambs instead of adults.  If you buy from a breeder with milk records and evaluation records, you can choose young stock which might be cheaper too.


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## Baymule (Jun 28, 2018)

Enabler...….


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## Ridgetop (Jun 28, 2018)

My mission in life is to spend other people's money on what they truly desire!  In this case - sheep!


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