# Costs of owning dogs are going way UP



## Bossroo (Apr 12, 2013)

Portland, Ore. Channel 2 News on their " on your side" segment showed several ladies ( one was in a wheel chair at the Vets' office shocked at the price of their little dog's seizure meds.   2 years ago the price was $50  ... their current bill was $ 8 0 0 +.   Others were complaining about the huge increase in their bills.  The reporter called the manufacturer who told them that the price of the active ingreadients prices have skyrocketed due to active ingrediant shortages and  to increased demand due to the activities of  dog adopters  from rescue groups as well.  Another segment showed that Oregon no kill rescue groups are importing dogs by the hundreds  from California no kill rescue groups that they can't place.   Who can now afford to own a pet at the huge adoption "fees" and then the huge Vet bills ?


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## BrownSheep (Apr 12, 2013)

We have a bunch of shelters taking in California dogs too. Coupled with the fact that a dog fighting ring of 64 dogs was just busted and our own strays and unwanted dogs every shelter in Southern Idaho is filled to the brim.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 12, 2013)

*I agree, vets are EXTREMELY expensive. I used to work at one and would see "sticker shock" every day about people who don't realize how expensive it is. 


Then people wonder why so many dogs don't get taken care of properly, or end up in shelters. *


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## Southern by choice (Apr 12, 2013)

It has gotten quite ridiculous. People have equated canines with humans...stupid idea. We have more dog shelters here than womans shelters... the womens shelters get little $ in support but the dog shelters... shaking my head. I guess we value fluffy and fifi above human beings. Yep- I am older... wish it was the way it was 30 years ago that's for sure.
These no kill shelters are hurting dogs too! One no kill shelter in our area opted to spend something like 8 grand for surgery on a 9 year old dog.... not using the money for spay /neuter programs... they lost a huge benefactor because of it. Simply put =NOT EVERY DOG SHOULD BE RESCUED! Some need to be put down. Sad but true.  Vet practices are big $$$. especially the "small animal" clinics. The quick turn around of placing animals without adequate quarantine periods has also exposed MANY people to rabies- you won't hear about that though... you also won't hear about how the shelters are "not liable" yep you are responsible for all your medical and all other pets in the home being quarantined for 6 months at your expense and if you can't afford it now you will have to put them down. NOPE you won't hear about any of that.

In farm life we cull the sick, non-productive, costly animals for a reason... dogs should be the same.

OK- done ranting


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm going to chime in for the good vets out there!  I have lived from MO to CO and always been able to find that country vet that has animal welfare in mind more than profits or at least it's what it felt like.

My young pup recently broke her leg, ulna and radius. It was an evening and I started to freak thinking I was going to have to make a trip to the ER vet. We all know what happens when you go to one of those, you walk out a pauper.

Instead I called my farm vet who I'm relatively new to. He had evening hours (hardly heard of these days) told me to bring her in. Kept her over night fixed her leg and then did the rest of what it took to get her whole again for the next 11 weeks and when all was said and done I think I spent under $700.00.  We were so pleasantly surprised!  He will talk to me over the phone about farm animals. and last lamb that I had issues with I brought in and he treated for 23$.  that was with meds too.

I'm just sorry it's now big business instead of small town.  But if you look hard enough you can still find them. Or so it's been my experience.

My vets in AR and CO were just as good and inexpensive. the AR vet took the cake.  I had 2 LGD's neutered and I think I spent less than $200.00 and he kept them both over night.  

Yes...there are expensive ones out there but hats off to those that are still in it for the animals!


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## PendergrassRanch (Apr 12, 2013)

That is why I feed raw to ensure my dogs are as healthy as possible.  They also get minimal vaccines.  You average dental is hundreds of dollars.  Feed raw bones, no dental needed 

Haven't had a reason to go to the vet in years.


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## Roving Jacobs (Apr 12, 2013)

Part of the problem is that vet school costs more than human medical school in many cases and vets don't make nearly as much money and also have to pay for all their own equipment and building unless they are part of a large corporate practice. Vets have to charge more to try to work on getting out of this crippling debt they're saddled with right out of school. I have yet to meet a vet who getting rich off of their practice (although I'm sure there are some out there).

I wonder if the woman in the news has talked to her vet about either finding a more affordable medication or looking for it from a cheaper source. My dog needs medication daily and it was getting up to $50 a month from the vet. Without me even asking my vet contacted me to tell me that I could get his pills for less than $10 for a 3 month supply from a human pharmacy and went ahead and transferred my prescription there. There are options out there if you just talk to your vet honestly about what you can afford.


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## michickenwrangler (Apr 12, 2013)

PendergrassRanch said:
			
		

> That is why I feed raw to ensure my dogs are as healthy as possible.  They also get minimal vaccines.  You average dental is hundreds of dollars.  Feed raw bones, no dental needed
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> Haven't had a reason to go to the vet in years.


I spent over $700 on my 13 yr old dog last January.

She has had problems with abcessed teeth since she was 8. In spite of dental care, raw bones, organic goat milk and beef, her teeth have been degrading rapidly. She only has 1 canine left, 4 incisors and a few molars. She still happily gums her food though.

Typically her dental bill runs about $400, so the extra 300 was quite unexpected.

She'll be 14 in December, and I hate to say it, but no more vet bills for her beyond euthanasia. She's lived a good life.


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## PendergrassRanch (Apr 12, 2013)

michickenwrangler said:
			
		

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Well of course you can't trump genetics usually.  

My 10 year old dog has the pearly whites of a dog 2 years old.  My chihuahua (a breed notorious for horrible teeth) has pearly whites with pleasant breath.  Never a dental in the pack needed.  

I have a friend with a 14 year old doxie who is raw fed.  She only has 4 teeth left but she gets by just fine


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## Gevshiba (Apr 12, 2013)

Hope you don't mind a lurker jumping in here, but I have some advice on reducing vet costs.  Ask your vet if they price match.  I have several vets I use, and I let them know I use other vets.  My preferred vet is very expensive and is a 45 minute drive, so I use a closer vet for little things.  I have a vet for alternative things like Chinese medicine.  Only the preferred vet lets me price match (and pay out on my bill).  I take a magazine in with an RX section.  I get thyroid meds, heart worm preventatives-whatever- at a much better price.  I ran out of thyroid meds over Easter weekend and called to ask if I could get them at the closer vet.  I got 10 pills for $7.  I can't remember the exact cost for the 250 I usually get, but I think it's around $12-$15.  If your vet won't price match, I'd find one that does.  You don't have to use them for everything.  Also, my vet will write a prescription, which can be filled at Walmart, if it's a drug used for humans too.  I do have to ask for this, he doesn't just do it automatically.  Be careful filling prescriptions for animals at a pharmacy, mistakes can happen with decimals or instructions.  Check carefully to make sure it's correct.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I feed raw off and on.  I just lost my 16 yr old dog last spring and her teeth were all there if a bit worn.  Recreational bones are still in our diet at the moment and they do a great job.  I also use elk antlers as dog chews.  All dogs but 1 here are pearly white and have never had their teeth cleaned. The 1 that has bad teeth would never eat raw and doesn't chew on anything to hard.  Genetics do play a big role too. 

I had an expensive vet that tried to charge me 10 bucks for a hand written script,  we didn't pay and didn't go back.  Its a shame what a vets education costs. The vets we go to that are reasonably priced are older and their offices are not state of the art.  But they all are good about sending me to a specialist if need be.  

I too use different vets for different things but I don't usually tell them that and I do a lot of my own vetting. Vaccinations are something we do on puppies but after that they only get a rabies shot every 3 years to keep us legal.  I don't do boosters of the other shots.  To many bad side affects, and after about 7 or so they don't get any more rabies either.


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## BrownSheep (Apr 12, 2013)

We don't feed raw and have never had a dog need its teeth cleaned. 

Of course our dogs get all sorts of bones from us and if they don't get it from us they'll haul it home from the desert. Many a gross thing as been carried home proudly.


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## Bossroo (Apr 13, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> It has gotten quite ridiculous. People have equated canines with humans...stupid idea. We have more dog shelters here than womans shelters... the womens shelters get little $ in support but the dog shelters... shaking my head. I guess we value fluffy and fifi above human beings. Yep- I am older... wish it was the way it was 30 years ago that's for sure.
> These no kill shelters are hurting dogs too! One no kill shelter in our area opted to spend something like 8 grand for surgery on a 9 year old dog.... not using the money for spay /neuter programs... they lost a huge benefactor because of it. Simply put =NOT EVERY DOG SHOULD BE RESCUED! Some need to be put down. Sad but true.  Vet practices are big $$$. especially the "small animal" clinics. The quick turn around of placing animals without adequate quarantine periods has also exposed MANY people to rabies- you won't hear about that though... you also won't hear about how the shelters are "not liable" yep you are responsible for all your medical and all other pets in the home being quarantined for 6 months at your expense and if you can't afford it now you will have to put them down. NOPE you won't hear about any of that.
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> In farm life we cull the sick, non-productive, costly animals for a reason... dogs should be the same.
> ...


I agree with you 100% !!!   When the bleeding hearts took over for the City / County Pounds and instilled the NO KILL shelters with their spay and neuter mantra for the last few decades ...   WHY   are we so overun with these unwanted dogs and cats ???   In yesterday's Portland, Ore. news ( willing accomplice newsreporters) ... another rescue / no kill shelter just imported 150 dogs from Cal. that another  Cal. no kill shelter couldn't place.  These dogs were actually flown by "volunteers in private airplains.  They seem to have overpopulated California with their ill conseived mentality , they are now exporting their fruits of their hording mentality  to other States.


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## woodsie (Apr 13, 2013)

Bossroo said:
			
		

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We are even having these california rescue dogs show up in CANADA! I can't imagine the cost and process to get these dogs across the border. Most people find it too expensive to get breeding stock across the border, it has to be some exceptional animal to make the process worthwhile, but we are having these California rescue dogs show up everywhere with new breed import/rescue orgs showing up all the time! THe dogs seem to be from rescued from "Kill Shelters" because people can't bare the thought of putting down a dog...I'm not a fan of putting down healthy dogs either but importing batches of rescue dogs from other counties without homes lined up seems excessive.

I just don't understand why crazy resources are being sent to perpetuate and spread a problem...this world is getting more and more ridiculous!


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## CritterZone (Apr 13, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> It has gotten quite ridiculous. People have equated canines with humans...stupid idea. We have more dog shelters here than womans shelters... the womens shelters get little $ in support but the dog shelters... shaking my head. I guess we value fluffy and fifi above human beings. Yep- I am older... wish it was the way it was 30 years ago that's for sure.
> These no kill shelters are hurting dogs too! One no kill shelter in our area opted to spend something like 8 grand for surgery on a 9 year old dog.... not using the money for spay /neuter programs... they lost a huge benefactor because of it. Simply put =NOT EVERY DOG SHOULD BE RESCUED! Some need to be put down. Sad but true.  Vet practices are big $$$. especially the "small animal" clinics. The quick turn around of placing animals without adequate quarantine periods has also exposed MANY people to rabies- you won't hear about that though... you also won't hear about how the shelters are "not liable" yep you are responsible for all your medical and all other pets in the home being quarantined for 6 months at your expense and if you can't afford it now you will have to put them down. NOPE you won't hear about any of that.
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> In farm life we cull the sick, non-productive, costly animals for a reason... dogs should be the same.
> ...


I can't disagree with anything you said - perhaps because I am "older" too?  Euthanasia is not mean or cruel, and it is often the right thing to do.  Save the ones that are worth saving, dogs that are healthy and will easily fit in to most homes.  It is unfortunate that people create so many dogs that end up with special needs either though abuse or neglect, but it doesn't make sense to dump precious resources into a dog that may never be able to leave the shelter.

There is one caveat - we don't cull our old ewes when they quit producing lambs.  We figure if they give us everything they have for years, we can cover them in their retirement years as long as they stay healthy and don't require anything special


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## Southern by choice (Apr 13, 2013)

CritterZone said:
			
		

> There is one caveat - we don't cull our old ewes when they quit producing lambs.  We figure if they give us everything they have for years, we can cover them in their retirement years as long as they stay healthy and don't require anything special


 I so agree with you... a lifetime of service and I think the animal should live out their days. I just draw the line when meds/constant medical treatment etc. takes over, like you.  A 2 year old non productive... it is a cull.


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## Kotori (Apr 15, 2013)

I volunteer at a no-kill, but it's mostly because my mom can't stand the thought of having an animal put down for 'no reason'.

I only get upset when dogs are put down for being pitbulls, or because they have a 'bad attitude' and people don't bother to try socializing. My dog now is a rescue, almost put down for being 'dog aggressive'. Nowadays she only has issues with the big, barky dogs. All other dogs just get a look, then she doesn't care. All I did was take her on walks past every yard with a dog once a day for a week. 

Here is how I do it:
Any genetic issue:Neuter
Any chronic issue: put up with it
Severe issue requiring surgery, and still require meds: Put down

My dog also has arthritis and gets glucosomine every day. She takes pills well= no issue. I had a dog that had Diabetes, so shots twice a day= still not an issue. Friend had dog that would require eye surgery, then eye drops four times a day, then possibly another surgery= issue.

I want to be a vet, and I want to be a rural vet. I'm tired of dealing with city folk (ignoring the fact that I too am a city person)


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## BrownSheep (Apr 15, 2013)

Can't lie our 13 year old lab is on pills for her bladder and joints. 

It's not super expensive and it makes her golden years a little more comfy. 

I also paid a hefty sum to have my saints shattered leg put back together. Totally worth it. Orthopedic vet = walked out of surgery with no cast.


It is depressing when good dogs get put down, but IMO that's better than them spending their entire lives in cages. The real issue is people intentionally breeding for puppies because their dog would have cute babies. Along with people taking on pets with ou looking at the long term. 

You better be ready to commit 10-20 years of your life to it before you accept a puppy.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 15, 2013)

If you own the dog then i would say the sky is the limit as to what you choose to spend.  Your dog, your limit.  But I think it's a different thing all together when shelter money is spent on saving a questionable dog.  
Pit bulls are fine with me unless they come from a fighting background.  If that's the case then I think there is a chance that the genetics have been altered by breeding for aggressiveness.  If someone is willing to take responsibility for that dog and safeguard its self and others.  but I sure wouldn't want that responsibility.  

I've had several dogs that have needed meds as they age.  As long as I can afford it I will, but I won't keep a dog of mine alive that is suffering in a manner I can't help.  

Nice to hear someone wants to be a country vet.  Good luck with your studies!


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## Bossroo (Apr 16, 2013)

Again I ask ...   WHY      do we have so many rescue dogs that they need to be exported to other areas of the country ,at great expense,  to have any chance of being "adopted" when all of these rescue groups have been espousing spay and neuter for decades ?


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## CritterZone (Apr 16, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> If you own the dog then i would say the sky is the limit as to what you choose to spend.  Your dog, your limit.  But I think it's a different thing all together when shelter money is spent on saving a questionable dog.
> Pit bulls are fine with me unless they come from a fighting background.  If that's the case then I think there is a chance that the genetics have been altered by breeding for aggressiveness.  If someone is willing to take responsibility for that dog and safeguard its self and others.  but I sure wouldn't want that responsibility.
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> I've had several dogs that have needed meds as they age.  As long as I can afford it I will, but I won't keep a dog of mine alive that is suffering in a manner I can't help.
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Exactly!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 16, 2013)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> Again I ask ...   WHY      do we have so many rescue dogs that they need to be exported to other areas of the country ,at great expense,  to have any chance of being "adopted" when all of these rescue groups have been espousing spay and neuter for decades ?


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Because there are still not enough people are spaying and neutering their dogs, and are irresponsible with letting them breed.*


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## Southern by choice (Apr 16, 2013)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

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I think those of us that are older and have been around for awhile laugh at the whole spay /neuter idea that this is the reason. It is simply not the whole picture. When I was a kid living in a small "suburban" neighborhood  out of two streets at approximately 50-60 family homes there were only 5 families that owned dogs. They were considered a *"luxury"* back then you never saw a dog with skin issues health junk or anything else....  Now- in our I want what I want when I want it society and everything is often done on a whim I really think it has contributed. 

I cannot even begin to tell you how many times I hear "well, we are going to get a dog and see how it goes and then maybe we will have kids" Seriously.... this is where we are....everything "convenient for the moment" or disposable. Dogs are often being used as "replacements" for human companionship. Most people that repeat the mantra told to us about spay/neuter etc have just been told this for so long they believe that is what makes a responsible owner ... I believe it has created ignorant owners that are lazy and know nothing about owning a pet. Spaying and neutering is a good idea for most people but this is a bit odd don't ya think... Huge push tons of "programs" and we have MORE unwanted canine before this big push.... 

This push is bought all the time by ignorant owners... I had a new vet come out on a farm call she was awful... among many other mistakes she made she tried to tell me our then 5 month old pup had Pyometra. Keep in mind a happy wagging tailed pup, energetic, eating, no temp, no swelling nothing.... just a normal small amount of "hormone surge discharge " that female pups will have here and there. A 5 month old pup barely has uterus- of course it has one but there are not going to be any reproductive issues at that point. All about that spay crap... I told her what it was- yes I was telling the vet what she was seeing- Wrongly diagnosed 2 goats also.... cost us a fortune just to end up having another vet come out for exams...

If I was ignorant I could have been very sunk into spaying a 5 month old pup and being charged for an emergency spay because of "Pyometra". Ever look up the HW preventative??? Know anything about it? dosage, why it's used, main ingredient, how often IT REALLY needs to be given? Most don't and will never question it. $$$$$$$$$$$ 

So - probably PO some people but most involved in rescue scenes really have no clue what they are involving themselves in.


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## Godsgrl (Apr 16, 2013)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

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Right. Either people don't have the  money to spay or neuter, or they are too lazy. Then there are those who want to breed fluffy or fido "one time" before having the animal fixed. @@


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 16, 2013)

> Ever look up the HW preventative??? Know anything about it? dosage, why it's used, main ingredient, how often IT REALLY needs to be given? Most don't and will never question it. $$$$$$$$$$$


If I were to use it monthly I'd spend about a nickel a month on each dog but in reality I only do HW preventive 2-3 times a year. I have documented reasons why. but unless someone asks I will leave it at that.

Not a vet but out of personal experiences I have learned to do most vetting myself.  Haven't had a farm call for over 10 years. Have brought in one lamb, this year to learn how to repair a hernia.  Wasn't the only issue with that lamb so she couldn't be saved.  Pup broke her leg in Oct. Needed a vet for that one but otherwise not cost effective for us.

To each their own though, I would never tell others that my way is right for everyone. Just working for me.

had to add that I don't spay my dogs till well over a year sometimes 2 or more and have never had a little of puppies.  Yes the general population doesn't know enough to not end up with accidents or on purpose accidents but I feel it is detramental to the dogs health later  in it's life to spay a dog under 10 months or so of age.   
I think it's more the issue of stray dogs having litters of stray puppies and the general joe public "loving" their perfect pet so much that they are sure it needs to reproduce. and of course the ones that get puppies and find adult or young teen dogs are to much a bother so they are disposable pets.


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## Bossroo (Apr 17, 2013)

Godsgrl said:
			
		

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The bigger problem is these so called " rescue shelters '  "   shake one down financially in terms of fees and/or  "donations " with their sob stories when one gives up their dog/ cat or tries to get one from them. Two personal examples : 1 )   I have a 20 acre horse ranch with many mice and rats invading all the time ( they eat spilled grain in the barn also any undigested feed from the horse feces out in the pastures. I also have a HUGE coyote population.   I used to go to the County pound and pick up 10-12 cats every 6 months to prey on the mice/ rats for FREE.   The problem is that the lifespan of a cat in our area is between 2-6 months as the cats are a tastey treat to coyotes. Any dumped cat is consumed by coyotes within days and I haven't even heard of any ferral cats in the area. In town, yes, out in the countryside NOPE .    Then the rescue groups step in and they started to charge $35 per cat and then started to ask for additional donation, 6 months later it became $75, then 6 months later ( you guessed it )  $125 + a donation.  That is $125 x 10 cats = $1,250 x 2x/year =      $ 2,500 .       Who can afford that, so I now get poison from the county for just under $30/ year.     Example 2).  My son and daughter- in- law had a very friendly people oriented 8.5 lb.  neutered male chihuahua.  When my granddaughter  was born we found out that she was allergic to dogs. So, they tried to give him away to any rescue group that would take him in a Metropolitan area of well over a million people.  NO takers.  Then I called around in my metropolitan area of nearly a million people and found one rescue group to take him.  No mention of a " surrender fee" over the phone.  When I arrived the  sprung the " surrender fee of $150 " on me, which I paid.  Then I had to fill out a 4 page form with all home and work telephone numbers for my son, daughter- in - law, my wife's as well as mine.  Then I had to sit in their waiting room so that they could do an  health and behavior evaluation so that they could place him.  While all this is going on, these "rescue" volunteers call my son, daughter-in-law, and my wife to ask for another " $ 150 donation" with a sob story.  Let's see , if all of us made a donation that would amount to  $ 150 x 4=  $  6 0 0   to just surrender this 8.5 lb canine.        While I was sitting in the waiting room I saw 2 different people with kids  walk out the door with 2 different nondescript dogs. one paid just over $ 300 the other one over $400 for adoption fee, spaying/ neutering  fee, leash, toys, treets,  doggie bed,  as well as dog food.  All OVERPRICED !     Add these up and you come up with a heafty princely sum  indeed  so that we can see their sobbing TV commercials to perpetuate their shake downs  !!!


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## SheepGirl (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't know. If I were spending this much money on a dog from a rescue I might as well just hold off for a couple more paychecks and get one from a breeder who has the health history of the dog, all the dog's in the pedigree, etc.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 17, 2013)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> The bigger problem is these so called " rescue shelters '  "   shake one down financially in terms of fees and/or  "donations " with their sob stories when one gives up their dog/ cat or tries to get one from them. Two personal examples : 1 )   I have a 20 acre horse ranch with many mice and rats invading all the time ( they eat spilled grain in the barn also any undigested feed from the horse feces out in the pastures. I also have a HUGE coyote population.   I used to go to the County pound and pick up 10-12 cats every 6 months to prey on the mice/ rats for FREE.   The problem is that the lifespan of a cat in our area is between 2-6 months as the cats are a tastey treat to coyotes. Any dumped cat is consumed by coyotes within days and I haven't even heard of any ferral cats in the area. In town, yes, out in the countryside NOPE .    Then the rescue groups step in and they started to charge $35 per cat and then started to ask for additional donation, 6 months later it became $75, then 6 months later ( you guessed it )  $125 + a donation.  That is $125 x 10 cats = $1,250 x 2x/year =      $ 2,500 .       Who can afford that, so I now get poison from the county for just under $30/ year.     Example 2).  My son and daughter- in- law had a very friendly people oriented 8.5 lb.  neutered male chihuahua.  When my granddaughter  was born we found out that she was allergic to dogs. So, they tried to give him away to any rescue group that would take him in a Metropolitan area of well over a million people.  NO takers.  Then I called around in my metropolitan area of nearly a million people and found one rescue group to take him.  No mention of a " surrender fee" over the phone.  When I arrived the  sprung the " surrender fee of $150 " on me, which I paid.  Then I had to fill out a 4 page form with all home and work telephone numbers for my son, daughter- in - law, my wife's as well as mine.  Then I had to sit in their waiting room so that they could do an  health and behavior evaluation so that they could place him.  While all this is going on, these "rescue" volunteers call my son, daughter-in-law, and my wife to ask for another " $ 150 donation" with a sob story.  Let's see , if all of us made a donation that would amount to  $ 150 x 4=  $  6 0 0   to just surrender this 8.5 lb canine.        While I was sitting in the waiting room I saw 2 different people with kids  walk out the door with 2 different nondescript dogs. one paid just over $ 300 the other one over $400 for adoption fee, spaying/ neutering  fee, leash, toys, treets,  doggie bed,  as well as dog food.  All OVERPRICED !     Add these up and you come up with a heafty princely sum  indeed  so that we can see their sobbing TV commercials to perpetuate their shake downs  !!!


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All I have to say is I have volunteered for a no kill cat rescue for the last 4 years and they are definitely NOT making money, they use 8 different vets and at each place is in debt over $10,000, since it is a "no kill" they use the money from adoption fees etc to pay for some of the more unlucky animals that have higher vet needs. There are no paid workers and they've saved over 10,000 cats and placed them into homes since 1999. I would say this is an extremely responsible and well managed rescue, not to mention effective!

And also, this is just my opinion. I think it's cruel to get cats and place them out in an area where you know they will be eaten. It might be a temporary problem to the mice, but what's more is it's cruel to the cat AND you are feeding and perpetuating the coyote problem.*


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## Bossroo (Apr 18, 2013)

White mountain...  for your information ...   I, as well as all of my 7 nearby neighbors, have NO LOVE for coyotes.   I shoot and kill from 15-20 coyotes per year since I moved onto my ranch, and still they come.  My neighbors do the same as they kill/ main  my foals, and neighbor's calves as the cow is giving birth by eating off the calves' faces and the cows' vulvas,  kill many lambs as well as kill / maim ewes.  Not to mention all chickens, turkeys, and ducks not to mention our dogs, are under a death sentence due to the hordes of coyotes. I haven't seen any of these birds for miles around. I got cats as a natural control of the rat and mouse horde pests as the coyotes do not seem to put a dent in their overpopulation.  Cats just happen to be  a natural prey of coyotes.  So removing rats and mice as well as  unwanted/ unadoptable feral  cats from the overpopulated population at the rescue shelters is all natural in Mother Nature's scheme of things.  Our .22, .273, .308,  and .30 30  as well as rat/ mouse poison to dispose of them ( forced to use due to HUGE cost of cats )  are the only means to reduce the huge number of coyotes .   Lets see, when these "no kill and/ or rescue groups"  get their cats / dogs for free by volunteers picking them up, then have free labor from volunteers, spend huge amounts of  money on  surgeries on spay / neauter as well as on injured and terminally ill animals ( Ch 2 Portland , Ore. reported last week that one of these no kill shelters spent over $9,000 for surgeries on a dog that was hit by a car  with terminal injuries ,   then died shortly after the surgery just because it was at a " no kill" shelter.  Just how many other healthy animals does one think could have been fed, cared for, and adopted out by spending the money on not so unsavable animals.)  and as you say that this "no kill" shelter  is in debt for  over $10,000 to each of it's 8 vets then they shake down their cat/ dog adopters and their relatives to cover their losses... this  " no kill" model is NOT SUSTAINABLE . As was also stated that this group saved over 10,000 cats since 1999, so why are these type of groups sending animals to other states at great expence because they can/t find local homes ? Also, as you stated that this  " no kill " shelter is exteamely responsible, well managed, and effective... however, considering the above,  could this model could possibly be under some serious  mismanagement ?      Even MOTHER NATURE knows better and desposes of the overpopulated, sick, deseased, and injured animals from thei general popullation by HER deploying predators ,  decease, and starvation.   Good luck.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 18, 2013)

*I agree with you, and there are probably "no kill" rescues that do what you mentioned, but this one in particular won't try to save an "unsavable" animal. If it has a terminal disease or is likely to die (say from a serious car accident) they won't take it into the system. And they have never exported a single animal to another state. But I'm sure there are other ones that do do what you say and do export them, or is it just the shelters that are exporting them?*


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