# When can I put doelings with buck?



## Kimberley (Aug 3, 2018)

My doe had twin girls 5 weeks ago. As soon as she started to kid I put her in the barn and she has been separated ever since. The buck is not the baby daddy and we eventually want to breed the 2 doelings with him but I obviously don’t want him mounting them quite yet as they are very small. When can I put them all together again? Or do I have to put him somewhere else by himself until the girls are ready to be bred?


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## Goatgirl47 (Aug 3, 2018)

Most people say 8 months or 80 pounds (for a standard sized breed). I generally like to wait until 10 or 12 months of age, even if they are already over 80 pounds, but it depends on the individual goat. What breed(s) are your girls?


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## Latestarter (Aug 3, 2018)

You didn't mention breed. Some are year round breeders and others are primarily fall breeders. Most goats (M&F) are "capable" by 2-3 months of age but most does are NOT old enough/big enough to have kids when they first come into heat. That will make absolutely no difference to a buck... if they come into heat, he WILL breed them. If you want planned breeding with known expected birthing dates, then you need to keep those girls separated from the buck until YOU want them pregnant. Additionally, once a doe has kidded, it's generally not a good idea to breed her back immediately. She's going to need time to nurse the kid(s) and wean (3-4 months) them then regain body condition before being rebred.


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## Kimberley (Aug 3, 2018)

You all have confirmed my fears. I think it will be less stressful if I just sell my buck. He’s kind of a jerk any way. sorry I forgot to mention the breed in my original post. They are all Nigerian dwarfs.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 3, 2018)

Nigerian Dwarves should be housed separately by sex. They are year round breeders and it is irresponsible to keep bucks in with does. Doelings can cycle between 9-12 weeks. Bucklings are fertile and can extend by 8 weeks. Weight is not a good test of whether a doe should be bred.
The overall structure of the doe is important. Hip width, body capacity and weight should all be considerations as well as kidding history of dam and family. 
When keeping bucks they should have their own area, own shelter, and companion. I prefer intact bucks be with intact bucks. I personally do not like wethers and bucks together. Having 2 unrelated bucks allows you to retain and breed to other buck etc.  Pen/hand breeding is also the best way to determine excat due dates. No guessing, no wondering who the daddy is etc.


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## Hipshot (Aug 9, 2018)

Kimberley said:


> You all have confirmed my fears. I think it will be less stressful if I just sell my buck. He’s kind of a jerk any way. sorry I forgot to mention the breed in my original post. They are all Nigerian dwarfs.


  Hold on now !!You can bred the doe to him before you sell him . It just depends if your resting your doe and only allow her to kid once a year .most  large production for meat farms don't practice this . Backyard herders do because most are more attached to their  animals  . When I was young we never took away the buck . They kidded and bred at will. It never seemed to be a problem . Of course  back then a goat was worth $15 . I looking at unregistered Boer does for $200. Up to you If your doe was in good shape at kidding and is in good shape when she comes  in heat in about eight weeks I would bred her . But  here is the fly in the ointment . She has to make enough milk for her nursing kid or kids And supply  nutrition to the growing fetus /fetuses. All the while maintaining her own fiscal condition .   This is where being a good flock master is so important because you  and only you can make that call . Because only you know the condition of the animal in your charge. It's really hard for a meat producer, that is trying to build up a herd at todays prices. Most can't afford to allow a doe to skip a kidding . I bred my does back after weaning so far they look fine .  Sounds like you'll do a good job which ever way you go.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 9, 2018)

Hipshot said:


> When I was young we never took away the buck . They kidded and bred at will. It never seemed to be a problem .


You cannot do that with Nigerian Dwarfs. Nigerian dwarf doelings cycle at 9-12 weeks and bucklings can breed at 8.  They are also year round breeders and not seasonal. 
Dairy goats are primarily for milk meaning they kid and you milk for 10 months. Meat animals are different yet at the same time far too many tax their goats to death. Literally, death, because they get too run down and nutritionally deficient kidding over and over. Sadly this is why you don't see much longevity in breeding stock of meatgoats. Prolapses, inability to nurse or even to kid twins/triplets, low wean weights etc.
This is an 8 week old Nigerian dwarf kid... no way any responsible breeder would leave bucks run with the does. Notice her size in comparison to the chicken. 



 

Our Kikos have been run together and separate. They are meatgoats and quite different altogether. Even when run together they still only kidded 1x year. However triplets with high wean weights is not uncommon. Selling for meat market this is optimal.  Nigerians, which is what the poster has does not fall into the meatgoat category.


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## Hipshot (Aug 22, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> You cannot do that with Nigerian Dwarfs. Nigerian dwarf doelings cycle at 9-12 weeks and bucklings can breed at 8.  They are also year round breeders and not seasonal.
> Dairy goats are primarily for milk meaning they kid and you milk for 10 months. Meat animals are different yet at the same time far too many tax their goats to death. Literally, death, because they get too run down and nutritionally deficient kidding over and over. Sadly this is why you don't see much longevity in breeding stock of meatgoats. Prolapses, inability to nurse or even to kid twins/triplets, low wean weights etc.
> This is an 8 week old Nigerian dwarf kid... no way any responsible breeder would leave bucks run with the does. Notice her size in comparison to the chicken.
> View attachment 51136
> ...


The key words Responsible Breeder .And of course you would not want the doelings bred. I see nothing wrong with breeding the doe back if she is in good condition. I would wait 8 to 12 weeks hand breed the doe .   As my daddy would say if it walks on four legs it's meat. And If of cloven hoof is what your supposed to eat. The fact that it is of a milk breed doesn't change that . I bought some Tennessee fainting goats that the owner fed bread to . One doe one buck and two doelings a month old .They were all together she kidded with the buck in the pen with her. She may be bred back already .  The doelings got their first taste of grain from me.  We always get them eating grain as soon as possible in case we lose mama . Cow goat hog horse whatever . When I wean the doelings I will breed the doe to my Nigerien buck if she isn't bred .As I said  the condition of the animal is the most important thing . With the price of goats being what it is today . Taxing a doe to produce as many off springs as possible in her life time is up to the breeder. In my case I'm building up a flock .Searching out older bred does .Putting them with the Nigerien buck to be sure they are in fact bred .I'm off to look at a Boer buck next week. If I like and buy him the Nigerien will be gone soon . But let me say that I am a farmer. All else is second to that and producing food is my job and lively hood .I don't get to attached and even if I do I can still scratch its head this morning and eat it this afternoon .  What is abuse ? Having a goat  in normal condition producing a few more off springs in her life . Or perhaps having a goat so over weight for the show ring it can't possibly hold a pregnancy. And maybe even have internal organ problems from the much to much extra weight it carries ? Or the fact that it is exposed to countless diseases while being hauled  all over the place to show after show ,and given shot after shot to safeguard it from them . Constantly using poison  to deworm them, and most have a month withdrawal period.  I pull my buck at kidding and put him back at weaning .By that time I feel the doe has healed and it takes a little time for them to come in. Is what I do right. I really don't know . I do know that it is my decision, I follow my instinct along with what my eyes tell me to do . There is always going to be judgment calls in animal care . If we are lucky we make the right one . But the fact is the person in charge of the animal has to make the call . Unless of course the goat jumps the fence .


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## Southern by choice (Aug 23, 2018)

Hipshot said:


> The key words Responsible Breeder .And of course you would not want the doelings bred. I see nothing wrong with breeding the doe back if she is in good condition. I would wait 8 to 12 weeks hand breed the doe .   As my daddy would say if it walks on four legs it's meat. And If of cloven hoof is what your supposed to eat. The fact that it is of a milk breed doesn't change that . I bought some Tennessee fainting goats that the owner fed bread to . One doe one buck and two doelings a month old .They were all together she kidded with the buck in the pen with her. She may be bred back already .  The doelings got their first taste of grain from me.  We always get them eating grain as soon as possible in case we lose mama . Cow goat hog horse whatever . When I wean the doelings I will breed the doe to my Nigerien buck if she isn't bred .As I said  the condition of the animal is the most important thing . With the price of goats being what it is today . Taxing a doe to produce as many off springs as possible in her life time is up to the breeder. In my case I'm building up a flock .Searching out older bred does .Putting them with the Nigerien buck to be sure they are in fact bred .I'm off to look at a Boer buck next week. If I like and buy him the Nigerien will be gone soon . But let me say that I am a farmer. All else is second to that and producing food is my job and lively hood .I don't get to attached and even if I do I can still scratch its head this morning and eat it this afternoon .  What is abuse ? Having a goat  in normal condition producing a few more off springs in her life . Or perhaps having a goat so over weight for the show ring it can't possibly hold a pregnancy. And maybe even have internal organ problems from the much to much extra weight it carries ? Or the fact that it is exposed to countless diseases while being hauled  all over the place to show after show ,and given shot after shot to safeguard it from them . Constantly using poison  to deworm them, and most have a month withdrawal period.  I pull my buck at kidding and put him back at weaning .By that time I feel the doe has healed and it takes a little time for them to come in. Is what I do right. I really don't know . I do know that it is my decision, I follow my instinct along with what my eyes tell me to do . There is always going to be judgment calls in animal care . If we are lucky we make the right one . But the fact is the person in charge of the animal has to make the call . Unless of course the goat jumps the fence .


This is a great conversation and you make a lot of great points! I like this kind of interaction because it brings so much more to the table and helps bring so much perspective! I think this helps those new to the game as well.
Because it is civil and such a great conversation I would like to keep it going and draw some more scenarios. Unfortunately I am limited on time. But really hope to get back to this soon.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 23, 2018)

If nutrition supports it , managing meat goats to kid more than once a year is doable.  You will end up average though of 3 kidding in 24 months average.  Feed to flush for multiple births prior to breeding.  Wean kids at no older than 12 weeks.   Day or two  after weaning mark does already dry, those that had a single, any other issues to cull.  Note does with full udder as these are your valuable does doing their part to grow out fat kids!  New cycle begins.


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