# CAE Exposure?



## newbiekat (Apr 14, 2015)

Hi all,  I have a friend who bought a doeling from us last year. She is currently 14 mo old. She wanted to breed her this year so she bought a buckling from another farm (also 14 mos old ). She tried and tried all breeding season long yet to get the two to breed, yet the doe kept coming back into heat. Well, I had a couple that needed bred so we made a deal to have her bring both back to our farm and I would watch for breeding at my place while hopefully having him breed my two girls.i didn't NEED them bred this year but if I could have gotten them bred for a late spring baby that would have been ok with me. If not, I wasn't too worried about it. Anyways, I witnessed breeding 3x for my friends doe and once on mine. So, a month goes by, and we sent in blood samples to Biopryn. All 3 came back negative. He ran with her doe all breeding season, came to our place for a month and nothing. We are thinking he's got fertility issues and she is debating on getting him tested or whatnot cuz at 14 mos old he should have no issues breeding 3.  Well... when she sent in for the Biopryn she also sent in for CAE. Come to find out HE tested positive! All of my girls (including the one she bought from me) are negative.  Now I'm freaking out. It was a stupid idea on my part to let him come over when she hadn't had him tested prior. I've read that there's a very small chance that it can be contracted thru breeding but... AHHH!! I'm going to have mine retested in the fall (like always), and so is my friend. She's also debating on what to do with him. But regardless... how long after exposure can they test positive?? and what do I do now??


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 14, 2015)

Not sure, but maybe others will know;
@Southern by choice @Sweetened @Pearce Pastures @OneFineAcre


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## Southern by choice (Apr 14, 2015)

Oh my... that stinks.
Hopefully all will be ok. 
I am not sure about exposure times for CAE.
Glad none of the does settled.

As far as the buck... freezer meat. Infertile and CAE + to me that is a no brainer.   She should contact where she got the buck from and let them know that he had infertility issues as well as CAE+.

I am a little more over the top on these things but I would test the girls in 60-90 days and 60-90d ays again after that.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 14, 2015)

That is no fun at all.  I would put him in the freezer also and would contact the seller to let them know.  Not that they will do anything but they might.

While the virus is not known to be spread through semen, it is possible that during his run with the does, they might have been exposed to it in one of the other known channels of transmission.  There is a chance that they are fine but I agree that testing and retesting should be done.  I do not know how long after contracting it would show positive on a test though.


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## Sweetened (Apr 14, 2015)

I would nut him in the least if he's a pet-type animal and put him in the freezer if not.

CAE is something people freak out about in North America.  I have friends from Europe and CAE isn't something they worry about that much.  It's one of those things that just come up -- some have immunity, others don't; like HIV, some live their lives with it without ever having an issue, others decline quickly.  I will -NOT- cull for CAE, I will also not pasteurize the milk.  Our herd is small enough that I don't make many sales, and those that I do, people are informed we are not CAE prevention on my farm, nor will I ever be.  We are not a positive herd, but I don't test yearly either.  

You can get false Positives as well as False Negatives.  The test checks for antibodies; antibodies are produced upon exposure, and in my opinion, it's a feeble test for contraction of the disease.  I know a couple people who have had animals tested that have always been negative, without explanation come up positive, as well as others who have done the exact opposite.  A person I know on another forum tests yearly -- positive animals are put on one pasture, negative on another.  Negative bucks are bred to negative does, and positive to positive does.  He has shifted animals more than once from field to field due to positive and negative tests.  

Get your girls tested, and then test again in 6 months and a year.  Decisions like this happen, but that boy is blowing blanks!


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## Southern by choice (Apr 14, 2015)

Sweetened said:


> You can get false Positives as well as False Negatives



The incidence of this is extremely rare. 
Often a doe that tested negative was simply within a certain range. The test depending on which one you are doing has an adhesion rate #.
It the cut off is below a certain range the animal is negative, if within a small range suspect, any thing over that would be positive.

A doe I was looking at had a high # but still within the "Negative" range. Her doeling at 9 months tested positive.
Needless to say I did not acquire the doe.

It is about the numbers.

Just because an animal is asymptomatic doesn't mean the offspring that are positive will also be asymptomatic.

To each his own..


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## babsbag (Apr 14, 2015)

The thing about CAE is that IF it does start to show symptoms you can have it show in many different ways. Lameness and a rock hard udder = no milk is common and not really something you can look that other way at. What good is a dairy doe in particular if she can't raise her own kids and/or give you milk? And what good is any goat that can't walk. 

Then you get a positive doe infecting their kids and end up with kids that might be dead before they are 6 months old from neurological problems.

Do I practice CAE prevention? Nope. Do I have a tested and closed herd (all new animals are tested) YES. !!!!  Even my Boers are CAE/CL tested.  I test every other year but I only test my foundation does, I do not test their offspring since I know where they came from.

I have never heard of a + animal becoming negative. The other way around, yes.


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## Sweetened (Apr 14, 2015)

I am totally with you, babs, and at the point of symptom presentation, like a hard udder etc., thats cull time. But to me, if you end up with a CAE animal who lives a long, healthy life as a carrier but doesnt develop symptoms, thats a worthwhile venture, and one to keep kids from.


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## babsbag (Apr 14, 2015)

@Sweetened, I can understand letting a doe lead a productive life with CAE if she can, or even just be a pet if the circumstances allow but I can't perpetuate this disease and knowingly let her have kids that aren't destined for the meat cycle. If you are saying that the kids may be asymptomatic because the dam is and therefor they should be kept and bred to perpetuate that gene I would agree whole heartedly IF someone can prove to me that that is the case. I am not willing to end up with a herd of CAE + animals or sell them to someone just on the off chance they may be genetically superior. They might be, something for some University or the USDA to study, I just don't want to be the lab "goat".

If the positive animals were not bred and sold perhaps (wishful thinking) CAE could be eradicated.


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## Sweetened (Apr 14, 2015)

Me either, knowingly. There just needs to be people out there breeding for resistance and immunity, its the only way to combat the spread of the disease.

An infected doe can produce kids who both are and are not affected. This says something to me. I think its a worthwhile adventure for people looking for an alternative solution.


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## babsbag (Apr 15, 2015)

There are also animals out there that test negative for years and then suddenly seroconvert and no on knows if they can spread the virus when they were testing negative or not. It can take months or maybe even years for them to convert after exposure so I don't think anyone can be sure that a negative kid from a positive doe will stay that way.  There is certainly a lot not yet known about this disease.


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## newbiekat (Apr 15, 2015)

I forgot to mention that I did tell her to let the farm know that he tested positive. I do think she is going to put him in the freezer... Now, as for my girls... Generally speaking they should be fine, but I should test now and retest in the fall then and hopefully they didn't contract the disease. Is that basically the consensus I'm getting? Just wanting to be clear.


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## Sweetened (Apr 15, 2015)

Thats my thought process? Testing yearly or viannually from this point on would be beneficial to you if youre trying to keep track of it.


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## Onyx (Apr 15, 2015)

Would there not perhaps be someone in Europe then, who would know more about whether goats who are positive but asymptomatic pass this strong immunity on to their kids?   Since it sounds like that's what breeders there are going for, more than immediate culling on positive diagnosis.  It sounds like something that people who have been raising goats for generations would know more about, if they are following a "survival of the fittest" model.  If this is something that Europeans don't worry that much about, that at least suggests to me that they have achieved a greater degree of asymptomatic presentation.


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## babsbag (Apr 15, 2015)

I don't believe that Europe has any better information than the US. What I do know is that they take the disease more seriously and cull heavily. In Switzerland a goat with CAE symptoms is rare because in 1984 they voluntarily culled positive animals and they went from a 60-80 % positive to about 1% positive. They haven't bred genetically superior stock, quite the opposite; they have culled heavily and it paid off and they aren't the only country that did this. European countries  actually work together to try and eradicate this disease. 

They are now pretty certain that kids can contract CAE in utero or through birthing fluids and if that is the case how good is the CAE prevention? And since a positive doe can pass it on when no symptoms are present  then unless everyone tests AND culls or simply doesn't breed those goats or keeps them as a separate herd then the disease will continue to be proliferated.

Culling is never easy but if you sell a positive goat to someone as pet even with full disclosure you have no way to guarantee that they won't go ahead a breed her and then her kids are positive too. That is no good for anyone or for goats in general; that is why I still say culling is the only way to control this disease.

There are some breeds that appear to have a natural immunity, but none of the standard breeds you will find in the US.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 15, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I don't believe that Europe has any better information than the US. What I do know is that they take the disease more seriously and cull heavily. In Switzerland a goat with CAE symptoms is rare because in 1984 they voluntarily culled positive animals and they went from a 60-80 % positive to about 1% positive. They haven't bred genetically superior stock, quite the opposite; they have culled heavily and it paid off and they aren't the only country that did this. European countries  actually work together to try and eradicate this disease.
> 
> They are now pretty certain that kids can contract CAE in utero or through birthing fluids and if that is the case how good is the CAE prevention? And since a positive doe can pass it on when no symptoms are present  then unless everyone tests AND culls or simply doesn't breed those goats or keeps them as a separate herd then the disease will continue to be proliferated.
> 
> ...


@babsbag
I was watching a farm to kitchen program on PBS one time and they featured goat cheese from this very large dairy in Sanoma County CA
300 goat large
I checked out their website and they had ADGA National Champs in their herd in multiple breeds
If I remember they had 4 or 5 breeds
Was surprised they had CAE but they kept positive animals separated by two fences spaced like 10 ft apart


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## babsbag (Apr 15, 2015)

Redwood Hills probably; but don't quote me on that. Don't know if they still have + animals  but I do know that they show a lot so I don't know if they bring their + goats to shows or not. I understand wanting to save some genetics and if you can pull the kids and really have them be negative then ok, but if animals seroconvert years after exposure how do you know that those kids will stay negative; and for that matter how do I know that all my negative goats will stay that way too.


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## Sweetened (Apr 16, 2015)

Thats a large problem, I think, would be getting people tu cull bucks and does worth big money who are show winners, and all their lines as things go.  The other thing is the financial devastation it could cause for people heavily invested.  Without a compensation program in place, even on a Voluntary cull, the losses are remarkable.  In addition, you could lose entire breeds, not bloodlines, breeds, in the long run if one is more suceptable than the other.  One could argue it'd be best, others can argue differently.


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## SheepGirl (Apr 16, 2015)

In sheep, the Scrapie disease has a genetic component to it, so much so that your sheep can be genotyped to see if they're resistant to the disease. I'm not sure if they found the same in goats, but it would be interesting if they could develop something for CAE as well.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Redwood Hills probably; but don't quote me on that. Don't know if they still have + animals  but I do know that they show a lot so I don't know if they bring their + goats to shows or not. I understand wanting to save some genetics and if you can pull the kids and really have them be negative then ok, but if animals seroconvert years after exposure how do you know that those kids will stay negative; and for that matter how do I know that all my negative goats will stay that way too.



I don't think it is an issue of the showing.  Maybe some to preserving the genetics.  I think it is more of an issue of having a ton of money tied up in a dairy and the fact that there is no problem milking CAE positive animals. Not sure how many positive animals they had, but I did remember seeing it.


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## babsbag (Apr 16, 2015)

I asked someone today about that dairy and yes it is Redwood Hills that has basically two herds.

That only problem showing CAE + animals is the other exhibitors may not be very happy. I was at a show one day where a doe was leaking milk as she walked around the ring and the owner just casually mentioned that the doe was CAE +. People were mightly ticked.

There is no problem milking CAE positive animals as long as they are asymptomatic but if they develop symptoms then they aren't much good on the milk line either. You would think if you have a CAE positive herd and you know that you do it would only be a matter of time and the CAE animals would be gone and your herd clean IF the CAE prevention is working.

Redwoo Hills is a huge force in shows and breeding out here and I admire them for being honest but I don't think that personally I would spend the kind of money their animals demand on a kid from a CAE posititive doe, but that is JMO and no reflection on them or their animals. They have beautiful goats.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 16, 2015)

No right or wrong answer I suppose in dealing with it.  It can be costly either way---culling or contending.  I'd rather cull and keep a clean herd.  Not having unthrifty animals saves me in feed and supplies, and it doesn't cost me anything extra to buy from a tested herd but culling and testing does cost too.  It's a personal choice, and is the same with other illnesses too.  Some folks feel orf, CL and such are livable too but to each his own.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I asked someone today about that dairy and yes it is Redwood Hills that has basically two herds.
> 
> That only problem showing CAE + animals is the other exhibitors may not be very happy. I was at a show one day where a doe was leaking milk as she walked around the ring and the owner just casually mentioned that the doe was CAE +. People were mightly ticked.
> 
> ...


Yes I was referring to Redwood Hills
I doubt there is another dairy in Sonoma with 300 goats
But I could be wrong 
Seems Sonoma is more known for wine
Like Humbolt County is known for weed 

I don't know them so I don't know if they show CAE positive animals or even sell their offspring
We had a shock this year when a local breeder had a batch of
CAE positive kids
When they were at NC State fair a lot of us wondered ..... But I honestly don't think they brought positive animals
Now as far a Redwood Hills I don't know them but if they are keeping those animals I would suspect they are productive and I don't think we need to be concerned about their expenses for maintaining those animals
I  have a CAE negative herd and it is very easy for me to say I would cull a positive animal


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 16, 2015)

I know several breeders that shows CAE + goats. They take every precaution to keep it contained so the other goats are not at risk. 

Honesty, most of us on BYH aren't big enough to be selling kids that come from CAE + stock. I know I couldn't. I don't have a line built, I may have some good goats but certainly not the top goats country at this time. 

That being said, I would cull if I ever had CAE in my herd. Its not something I will mess with. PERIOD.

I wouldn't be surprised if  RWH's sells goats out of CAE+ goats....... LOOK at their line! The have done so much and have some stunning goats! 

I did see this on their site


> *We test for CAE annually and separate any CAE positive animals with the suggested 6 ft. between fence lines. We milk all positive animals last and use protective measures when vaccinating and doing general goat care. *
> 
> *In order to insure that all our kids reach their full genetic potential, we attend every kidding and take precautions to make sure that the kids are unable to nurse. Kids are removed immediately from their dams, and raised in a separate facility where they stay until they are sold or moved to the main facility to be kept in our breeding program. They are fed heat treated goat colostrum and pasteurized goat milk, yogurt, and whey until weaning. Alfalfa hay is offered free choice from 2 weeks old, and molasses grain with a deccox pellet is offered starting at 5 weeks. Our kids are given preventative deccox powder in their milk starting at 2 weeks old. Any kid offered for sale will have its fist CD-T vaccination prior to shipping. *


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2015)

But the fact that they test yearling and separate positive animals makes me think that they are still seeing animals show up positive that weren't before. Maybe it is just the wording they used.  IDK, I pray I never have to make those tough choices.

Since I raise Alpines and they have some of the top Alpine genetics in their herd it is pretty hard not to admire their goats. The owner of the dairy judges a lot of our shows too; really nice lady but walking up to her and asking "do you show your CAE positive goats" probably wouldn't be welcomed with a smile.

Interesting that they feed yogurt and whey. I can see the whey, what else to do with it, but yogurt....costs money to make yogurt so they must find it to be a great benefit to the kids. I should go tour the place some day and ask all those hard questions.


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