# Holstein and Angus Mix Question???



## BuettnersLittleFarm (Apr 28, 2012)

We are very new to raising cattle and have many questions...We bought our first bull Holstein when 7 days old, bottle fed him, etc and now is 4 months old and doing great...We are doing this for freezer meat since the price of beef is constantly rising at the stores...We bought a Holstein because they are cheaper than traditional beef breeds...Now we want many more calves in the near future and considering crossing a Holstein with Angus to get the both of best worlds of our limited finances and for more product return...We are thinking of about 10 more to raise because of limited space...

Our question is..."Would it be a wise choice to purchase an Angus bull to cross with Holstein heifers for both personal use and to sell at the market when fully grown"???..."Or would there be a better choice in breed to cross with a Holstein???"


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 28, 2012)

What I would like to know first is how big of an area do you have to raise this many cattle? And where abouts are you located?

Angus over Holstein may be okay if you're not looking for an actual profit off them, and are just interested in doing this for a hobby, not for actual profit.  Reason I say this is because the calves may be docked because of the dairy influence they have, but other than that the only worry I have for you is that a) you may not have a big enough land base to work with b) heifers are a royal pain in the arse to start with for a newbie like yourself, and c) are you capable of knowing how to handle, raise and care for a bull?

With only ten heifers, consider AI instead of a bull, especially if you have "limited space" like you mentioned before.

Or better yet, get some beef cows.  If you're looking to hit the market with some calves, and want to do it without having to go in the red with feed expenses with having potentially ten Holstein cows to raise and the extra labour to have to milk them out every day (don't forget Holsteins are dairy cows, they make a helluva lot more milk than even one of their calves need, even if they're bred to Angus), beef cows that are medium to small in frame, good feed converters and will raise a good calf without you having to go out of your way to have them milked all the time (calves are the ones only needed to milk them), are your best bet.

So I'd completely scrap the idea of Holstein heifers unless you're planning a small-time dairy operation.

Oh, and get that bull calf castrated ASAP.  He's going to turn into a nasty SOB at around 12 months of age, even if he's just being raised for the freezer.



So with all that above, I have some more questions for you:
1) Are your plans with these cattle for just beef and a bit of profit on the side, or are you looking for both milk and beef?
2) Are you willing to spend extra money on extra feed?
3) If you are considering "no" for Q. 2), are you then considering raising these animals on just grass and hay alone with mineral and water at the side?  
4) Have you considered the backgrounding route where you can buy young steer calves, graze them on grass for several months to a year then sell them, possibly keeping one back for your freezer?
5) Is a bull the only option you have for your potential breeding herd or do you have access to AI?
6) Are you planning on just breeding the heifers once then selling them, or are you wanting to keep them long-term, keeping them producing a calf once a year?


I know you said your in a bit of a financial clincher now, but from what I've been reading of your post, and what your plans are, I've a feeling that you're going to get into even more trouble with those holstein girls if a) you decide to keep them as cows and b) need to buy feed to keep them.  If you are wanting a beef breeding herd (which almost sounds like you do, but correct me if I'm wrong), then do consider the option of purchasing a couple experienced beef cows instead to get your feet wet.  Holstein heifers are a bit more pricey than bull calves, and are less cheap than a couple of good beef cows that someone's willing to let go.  They're even less cheap in the long run as they grow into cows.

Just some advice to consider, and good luck with your future plans.


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## Icp7147 (Apr 28, 2012)

I would not recomend breeding angus cows to holstein bulls they would have a hard calving. How ever if you want angus x holstein i would check your local sale barn or even neighboring dairy farms because dairy cattle that dont settle are often bred to angus or hereford as a last resort. They are often fairly cheap and on our farm we have had good luck raising them for beef.


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## redtailgal (Apr 28, 2012)

Angus bulls to holstein  cows shouldnt be a problem.  

Using a Holstein bull would not be too cool.  They throw big calves that an angus would have trouble with.  AND Holstein bulls are a notorius for being demonic terds.  Sure, there are few nice ones around, but not usually. (castrate that bull calf you have now, as in yesterday).  I've been around cattle my whole life, and comfortable around them, but you could not PAY me to have a holstien bull.  Not enough money in the world.

Angus can also be temperamental, so be cautious.

I like Polled Herefords.  Easy calvers, no horns, good meat, good mothers, etc.  White faces breeds are more prone to eye problems, but good husbandry takes care of that.


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## BuettnersLittleFarm (Apr 29, 2012)

Thank you so much for both your replies and questions as it gave us a lot to consider...We have 7 acres of pasture and a small barn with 10 seperate pens...We are a retired couple, on a limited income, looking to make some extra money, plus meat for us and family...We read on many websites how it's becoming more common practice to cross Angus with Holsteins but rather get advice from all of you who has personal knowledge and experience ... The original plan was to buy 3 Holstein bulls from local farmers and/or at the action barn(prefer not) in the Spring to bottle feed them, then grain with hay, then turn them out to pasture through out the summer and Fall...Then back to hay and feed for part of the winter to both butcher and sell...Hopefully weighing around 800 to 1000 lbs...
 "BUT", our local farmers are tightening there belts in selling the calves and getting harder to get as they are getting top dollar for decent Holstein calves...For example, an average Holstein bull calf that weights around 100 pounds are selling for $200 because the price of beef is on the rise...
 So that lead us to the idea about buying more calves but milk replacer is also exspensive...Maybe we can consider about a momma to feed our calves???...and stick with strictly Holsteins???...Angus and Herefords calves are so expensive...We "WILL" have our bulls castorated for our safety of coarse..
  "Are Holstein steers dangerous???...and any more advice would be greatly appreciated..." 

P.S. We live 30 miles south of Erie, Pa.


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## jhm47 (Apr 29, 2012)

With all due respect, I would suggest that you would actually save $$$ if you would buy the Angus, Hereford, or other beef calves.  Holsteins are cheaper for a reason---they eat more feed in order to gain a pound of meat.  Their meat is also not as good as the meat from beef cattle.  Don't get me wrong---Holsteins have their place, but beef cattle would make you more money in the long run, due to their ability to gain faster, and more economically.  Also, if you plan to pasture up to 10 calves, 7 acres probably won't be enough.  I'd suggest that 2 - 4 calves would be more realistic, unless you plan to supplement them heavily with hay and grain.  Of course, this depends on the types of grasses you have, the fertility of your soil, and the rainfall you get.  Lots of variables there, I know.  Good luck, and I hope you make lots of $$$ on your new venture!


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 29, 2012)

BuettnersLittleFarm said:
			
		

> Thank you so much for both your replies and questions as it gave us a lot to consider...We have 7 acres of pasture and a small barn with 10 seperate pens...We are a retired couple, on a limited income, looking to make some extra money, plus meat for us and family...We read on many websites how it's becoming more common practice to cross Angus with Holsteins but rather get advice from all of you who has personal knowledge and experience ... The original plan was to buy 3 Holstein bulls from local farmers and/or at the action barn(prefer not) in the Spring to bottle feed them, then grain with hay, then turn them out to pasture through out the summer and Fall...Then back to hay and feed for part of the winter to both butcher and sell...Hopefully weighing around 800 to 1000 lbs...
> "BUT", our local farmers are tightening there belts in selling the calves and getting harder to get as they are getting top dollar for decent Holstein calves...For example, an average Holstein bull calf that weights around 100 pounds are selling for $200 because the price of beef is on the rise...
> So that lead us to the idea about buying more calves but milk replacer is also exspensive...Maybe we can consider about a momma to feed our calves???...and stick with strictly Holsteins???...Angus and Herefords calves are so expensive...We "WILL" have our bulls castorated for our safety of coarse..
> "Are Holstein steers dangerous???...and any more advice would be greatly appreciated..."
> ...


I too would really like to convince you to scrap the idea of getting Holsteins, or even attempting to cross Angus with Holstein.  The only thing that would be achievable with that sort of cross is if you're looking for a dual-purpose cow that can produce milk and beef calves.  Since it's obvious you're not interested in the milking aspect of this little set up and only the beef, please consider going the beef-calf or beef-cow-only route instead.  As JHM stated, it will cost a bit less for you in the long run because you don't need to be spending the money to buy extra grain to try to fatten up those Holstein calves.  Holsteins don't fatten up like Angus or Hereford or Shorthorns do, and they certainly won't fatten up as good as these breeds on grass alone, especially if you plan on going the grass-fed/finish route instead of grain-fed/finish.

Now, since you only have 7 acres, 10 cattle is really pushing it for your landbase unless you are wanting to try the rotational grazing route where it is possible to have more than twice the allotted animal unit per acre. And of course since you sound like you are wanting to keep breeding females that keep producing calves and keep them throughout the year every year, a stocking rate of about 3 cows is sufficient.   And like I said before, try to aim for beef cows, not dairy cows.  You don't have to get the best, high-quality purebred Angus cows, there's nothing wrong with purchasing a few good commercial red cows, provided that there seems to be a predominant Red Angus or Hereford look about them. You can't go wrong with reds, they're far more flexible when trying to reach the market with whatever calves they're looking to buy.

And you don't need to get into the Angus deal of things.  Of course Angus is expensive because it's so popular. But the reason it's so popular is because of the black-fad that producers have been chasing all thanks to the American Angus Association and their marketing tactics with their program Certified Angus Beef.  CAB is a tirade and a bit of a fraud, if you ask me, because the majority of the CAB label is only about quality, not about the fact that the beef getting the CAB stamp or sticker is really from a purebred Angus steer.  I mean, you can put a slab of buffalo steak in front of a consumer and tell them it's CAB and they'll believe that it's the best thing in the world simply because of the CAB label on it. It's a load of bull and something I try to educate the newbie cattleman and average consumer about.  You should read the discussion on CAB on here on this old thread: Black Hereford thread (which turned into a CAB-bashing discussion lol), and this breed page on Angus cattle: Angus Cattle Breed Page. Now don't get me wrong, and I mean all the respect in the world to you, I'm not really trying to discourage you from going the Angus route (well, okay maybe I am... ), but those are some things I feel you need to know about and may explain why you've automatically chose the breed Angus instead of other breeds that may potentially do one better for you. 

Now since I mentioned that, maybe you should consider other breeds like Herefords or Red Angus.  They don't have to be the purebred females, they can be commercial cows (commercial cows are less expensive anyway), and a few good cows that will give you some good calves to raise for the freezer and to possibly sell.  Or, like I mentioned before, you can opt for purchasing a half-dozen head of steer calves, raise them on grass for a while, sell the rest and keep one or two back for fattening up for beef.

But of course these are your decisions to make and I can't be here to make them for you.


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## redtailgal (Apr 29, 2012)

Yeah, I gotta agree.  10 acres....I'd stick to 5-6 tops.

You dont want your pasture mowed down to nothing.  You'll need to keep a little top on your grass.  Having some top to your pasture will not only cut WAY down on internal parasites, but will give you a little cushion during hot summer months, and in the event of drought etc.  A too short pasture will up and DIE in just a mild drought, leaving you in a terrible fix.

I, personally, wouldnt raise Holstein crosses with the same intent that you have, but I do know of others that are doing it and do OK at it, not making any money at it, but honestly, there is no profit to be made off a 10 acre pasture.  It is plenty of room for a fun little herd though.  

I do like the polled herefords, but then again, we are all partial to "our breed".  Personally, I would stay away from angus, simply because they are such a popular breed, and just like with dogs, popular breed are often more trouble than they are worth.  I've eaten beef my whole life and never eaten a steak and thought "hey, that was an angus or a hereford or a commerical".
(or thought "ewwwww, that cow tasted like it was RED!")

There is nothing wrong with a nice little commercial herd.  Can be downright enjoyable, and tasty too.

I see that you said you had a barn with 10 pens.......was this why you wanted a herd of 10?  For the most part you will not want to stall your cattle individually.  They would do much better with a "run in" type shelter.  The stalls are a good thing to have for sick/injured cattle or for bum calves.

What are your plans concerning hay?


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 29, 2012)

I think where OP is getting the idea of having ten is that that's idea for small calves, like with baby calves growing to yearlings, but  not cattle past the yearling stage.

I say no to the pens too, unless you are set on raising bottle calves.  If not, I'd probably take most of them down or at least take them down so that you end up with only two pens instead of ten.  The op will need a pen or two to keep the cattle in for a little bit until they settle down enough to be let out to pasture.


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## Chickann (May 14, 2012)

Hi! Just to pipe in quick, I have holstein steers that I raise for my own freezer and I find they are the sweetest things on earth. My oldest boy follows me in the yard like a 500lbs dog. I'm crossing my Holstein with a Hereford. But I'm prejudiced, I love my holsteins.


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## herdsman (Dec 4, 2012)

angus for me were always aggressive but it wouldnt be economical to buy a bull and cow just for your own meat because you would actually be losing money, if you were to do that you would be better off buying it at the store


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