# cesarean on dead cow possible?



## Cricket

I work on a dairy farm and we have a cow with an incurable foot infection.  Eventually she will have to be put down--not shippable.  She is due to calve in the next few weeks.  Has anyone heard of 'rescuing' the calf afterwards.  Sounds gruesome to me, but hate for it to not have a chance.


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## 20kidsonhill

at the same time, but you have to be fast.


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## Cricket

Thank you.  Maybe I'll see if I can find a diagram and post it in the barn and someone will be inspired.  Hopefully, she'll just calve and solve this issue herself!


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## elevan

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> at the same time, but you have to be fast.


I think you have something like 5 minutes to get the baby out (of any dead animal) before it starts dying itself.


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## redtailgal

It is possible, and it is a nasty bloody mess.  I've done it, and was covered in blood. Not just the arms, but all of me, my shoulders, my face, my hair, blood dripping off my elbows.  The cow was very very dead, but it was nasty.  Be prepared.

Get a short bladed, very sharp knife.

Before you kill her, feel her belly and get familiar with her belly..........where that calf is, etc.  Take some chalk and mark where you intend to cut......but mark on BOTH sides of her belly (if she is standing, you dont know which way she will go down).  Once she is down and you are sure she is dead (Please please make sure she is dead before you cut), work quickly but without panic. One her heart stops, you need to have the calf out and the cord cut in under 5 minutes.   be quick, but not panicked.

Plan on three cuts. The first cut will get you thru the skin, make a long 12 in cut, grab both sides and PULL to get a larger opening.  Do the same with the muscle, make a cut grab both sides and pull.  Once you find the uterus, try to grab a handful and pull it up and out...........away from the calf before you cut.

It is very very easy to slice open a calf during an emergency C-section.  This is why I say to use three cuts, and to pull the openings larger.  It may take two people to get the openings pulled open enough.

Have warm blankets ready, the calf will be cold and weak.  The calf may have trouble starting to breath on its own (I think that the passage thru the birth canal helps them with this normaly).  Also, the calf may have more mucous in the respiratory tract, be sure to have something there to clear the nose and mouth, (a bulb syringe like you would use for a baby is fine).  If breathing does not start on its own, cup the mouth shut and give a breath thru the nose of the calf. (remember the whole COVERED in blood part? I was serious).

I have done three postmortem sections. I delivered twins by this manner and two time a single calf..  They all lived. The area around me was gruesome, it looked like some scene from a horror movie. I would recommend having 1-2 helpers, and if you are going to allow children to watch, they may need to have an adult their to attend to their own needs.


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## redtailgal

This video will not help you with the c-section, but it give a good example of the immediate care of a c-section calf.  I'll provide the link in case I still cannon imbed the video.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNu2YU0u5QU&feature=related

 [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNu2YU0u5QU[/youtube]


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## greybeard

I saw it performed once long ago---RTG is not exaggerating the messiness involved one bit.  Of all the odd places, i saw it at a small slaughterhouse/beefprocessor.  The guy doing the cutting was very quick. The calf survived. 
If you aren't familar with the "insides" it might help to brush up on bovine anatomy a bit before attempting this unless you are going to have a vet there.


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## Bossroo

I have performed quite a few C- sections on live as well as dead cows.  Unless one cuts a  major blood vessel , there is very little blood to contend with. There is quite a bit of yellow amniotic fluid in the uterus and may gush out with the first cut  into the uterus. If one cuts through any utereine blood vessels and it bleeds into the uterus,the fluid will become red tinged.  Otherwise it can be done very fast and pretty clean.  That is if one doesn't do the deed after 3 days of a major rain storm , out in a muddy pasture after tieing the cow to a fence post and 3 people trying to pull the calf out, and it being too large to come out, cow dieing from exhaustion, and I using a pocket knife, cuting her open and pulling the still live calf out. Carrieing it to the barn to dry off and warm up with all of us bing completely mud covered and soaking wet. After the storm we invited the cow to freezer camp and later to quite a few BBQs.


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## redtailgal

Bossroo wrote:
"Unless one cuts a  major blood vessel , there is very little blood to contend with"

This is true, however, when you are trying to get a calf out quickly, and the cow is HOT and dead......well, I sort just cut through what is there to get to the calf, vessel or not.  LOl, by the time the cow is dead, I dont worry too much about making it a clean surgery.

Lol, about the barn.  Been there, it's cold and pouring rain, wrap the new calf in my coat so  it doesnt freeze then tromp thu that pouring rain, hauling that calf and my equipment, praying I dont fall in the mud.  You'd think that the long slow walk thru the pouring rain would wash the muck and mud and blood off of you, but nope it just spreads it more evenly.

What type of anesthesia did you use on that cow? Did you use a side cut or an under cut?


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## rd200

Why dont you just induce??? Wait until 2 or 3 weeks before she's due and induce her. She should have it between 12-36 hours i think. (not a vet)  

I think the mixture is like 15 cc dexamethasone and 15 cc oxytocin.  Sometimes its a harder, longer labor because its not natural but we have had very good luck on induction.

the calf will probably be small, but still viable 3 weeks out i think. Some cows carrying heifer calves sometimes calve 2 weeks before naturally.

One other thing to think about it that if you take the calf after you kill the cow, you need to have colostrum replacer on hand for the calf considering the cow wont be giving you any colostrum and the stress on the calf, its going to need good quality colostrum to survive.  Good luck, Rach 

Is the calf sexed???


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## Cricket

Rach, the inducing idea is great!  I know they aren't going to get the vet back out for her, but they do their own injections, and will run it by my boss.  Thank you all for your input.  If it was my cow (I have a jersey cross heifer who is here to stay and a 5 month steer for meat), I'd have the vet do it.  Think I'll pass on 'operating' on someone else's.  Good to know it's not such an off-the-wall idea!  No, the calf isn't sexed--keeping the cow going until she calves isn't a good business decision, but one of the reasons I like where I work!


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## aggieterpkatie

I think you only have a minute or two before the calf dies, so you'll have to be quick. I'd recommend calling a vet out and have him perform a normal c-section on her, then euthanize her after the calf is born.  Or, have him be the one to get the calf out if you've never done it before.  If you only have a minute, it's worth getting someone knowledgeable out.  I would also get as close as possible to the due date, and not go 2 or 3 weeks early.  If you want to save the calf, you want to wait as long as possible and not induce her so early.


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## redtailgal

Inducing is a good idea, if you are sure about the due date, but be careful.  There is a slim window of "readiness", calf born just a little bit too early will fail to thrive and have alot of medical problems.

I would definately give it some thought, though. It's an excellent idea and I'm ashamed that I didnt think of it.  

Something else I would consider is to have the cow euth'd in stages......have her put under the anesthesia for a c-section, and have the get the baby out while she is alive but "asleep"  and then let the vet inject the euthanol (or whatever he/she uses) to stop the cows heart.  

Please keep us posted on how this works out for you,  I like to know the treatments and outcomes of problems like this for future reference.  It's a terrible thing to say, but there is a lot to be learned from other peoples troubles.


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## Cricket

I was kind of worried this was the wrong place to discuss this, as I am talking about a large dairy, not a backyard farm.  (Although that's what I have personally).  But, as you said, any of us could face this situation.  The calf really doesn't have a $ value, so the vet won't be called again.  (I think at this point, it might be costing more to ship calves than they get for them, which makes me ever-so grateful for how treasured home calves are!).

They said they haven't had much luck inducing in the past, as the cow needs to be dialated already.  The c-section to euthanasia in stages would sure seem to be the kindest to the cow.  As long as her foot doesn't snap, she should be okay.  Too bad we have to stop pasturing due to weather.  She's been given the option of being in the free stall part of the barn or the tie up.  Naturally, being a Jersey, she has chosen the free stall and continues to assert her bossy self.  Cricket


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## redtailgal

big farm or not....you are welcome here.


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## aggieterpkatie

Cricket, I completely get the large dairy thing, since I have worked on several dairies.  If the calf is a heifer I'd think there would be a pretty good value, right?  I guess they don't want to take the chance that it'll be a bull?  Even at the large dairies we would still call the vet for major things, and usually the vet was out pretty frequently to do preg checks and things like that.  Hopefully things will work out.  Please keep us updated!


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## peteyfoozer

ONe of the beef cows here got stuck in the mud. A couple of the kids went out hunting and found here, the coyotes had been eating her alive, so they humanely dispatched her. Then they saw her belly roll and realized she had a calf in there. They pulled her out and did a cesarian with a pocket knife and brought the calf to me. We gave her some colostrum and had a hard time getting her to rally. AFter several hours of warming and rubbing we gave up, but my Golden Retriever started licking on her, and mothering her, and long story short, she's due to calve for the first time this spring.


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## Cricket

What a great story!  Those kids had to have some gumption!  Our cow is still meandering lamely through life, 'flying' under the radar of the one who would dispatch her.  Someone fudged on her due date--apparently when I heard she was due in a few weeks, it was more like 6!  Gotta love a family farm!   Cricket


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## greenfamilyfarms

Any chance that the induction would cause her enough stress for her to die in the process?


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## KellyHM

Ok, while this may seem obvious, I haven't heard anyone say it yet, so here goes...she can't be dispatched with euthasol or the calf won't be viable.  I'm assuming since the vet isn't doing it that they're planning on using a gun anyways, but just thought I'd throw that out there.

Also, if at all possible, try to cut on the right side.  Otherwise you're up against the rumen and it is a MESS.  Just a thought.


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## lilcritters

I worked at a dairy for 8 years and we had cows like that. We just waited for the cow to calve or we induced. I remember one cow that had such a bad udder we induced so we could milk her. We sold her though not too long after. I would fill her up with antibiotics and pain killers as much as I could since she won't be milked, keep her going as long as I could and induce for sure. If she is only a couple of weeks out. You could also have the vet come out, give her a spinal block, take the calf then dispose of her.


April


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## redtailgal

If you want the calf to be viable, you will need to be very careful about induction.  Unless a cow was AI'd or handbred, it's risky to induce as you dont know the due date.

We are talking about a foot infection here, this is not something that would prevent her from delivering her calf.  If the cow is not in agony, there really is little reason why the cow cannot be allowed to go into labor and deliver naturally.  A C-section would be appropriate if her pain became so bad that she needed to be Euth'd before the calf was born.

At that point, I would suggest the normal anesthesia for a section, delivery of the calf and then euthanol to stop the heart of the cow.  

just my 2 cents!


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## Cricket

The concern is that she could go down and what to do then.  At the rate she's going, she should be able to deliver normally.  She has apparently decided this is the 'new normal' and has been coming thru the parlor (her choice) for grain.  We originally had stanchioned her with the other dry cows, but she would get herself in trouble whether tied up or not.  So now she's hanging out in the freestall, and pretty much does what she wants.  It's unfortunate it didn't come up when she could have gone out to pasture.

Thanks all forl the advice!  RTG, I really like your scour treatment page.  
Cricket


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## Cricket

Just an update on our cow.  She delivered a very healthy bull yesterday and was being a very good and happy mom.  When I left the barn they were snuggled together.  I think she's going to be staying until the bitter end.  She's just got too much spunk to go before she's ready!  I love jerseys (and family farms!)

Thank you all for your advice--it's always nice to know your options.  And who knows if a similar situation could arise in the future.


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## redtailgal

I am so glad to hear this!

Thank you so much for updating.


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## Stubbornhillfarm

That's wonderful!  So glad that it all worked out for the best!


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## Farmerboy

x2!


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