# Deer worms?!?!?!



## heathen (Jan 29, 2013)

Hello BYHer's,
Surprise I have another question about something that I am not sure about.  So I called the Vet I get paid Thursday and Penny finally goes to the Vet. I have been told by 2 or 3 different goat breeders in the area that they believe penny has Deer Worms. The only symptom she still has is diarrhea and dog log poop. I told the vet over the phone and told him what my other local goat people were telling me. He said and I quote " Well if its deer worms a simple fecal will show it and if it is, she will have to be put down and the rest of the herd tested. Any testing positive will have to be put down and burnt." This is the local go to vet for livestock. My other option is an hour away the vet I LOVE to take my animals to no longer sees farm animals. So I have done some research on Deer worms. It says there is no test until after death and an necropsy is preformed. It is not a contagious kind of worm and Nigerians typically don't get it. Only one goat is sick The dogs keep deer away I realize a slug or snail could have gotten into the pasture and the dog wouldn't chase it off to small not a visible threat etc. So am I confusing deer worms with something else and it can be tested and be spread from goat to goat? Does anyone have any suggestions extra things to ask the Vet while I have  her in there. I am going to bring her son and have him checked out while I am there also but the put down thing kind of scares me. I SWEAR if they come in and say deer worms from the wild deer and have to put down all my goats I AM DONE!!!!  I will just get my goat fix from all of your photos!!!  I worked on Fence for 6 hours today and Amy goat helped me all day. She took off the insulators I set on the T post but didn't clip on she moved the wire out about 50 foot from where it was supposed to go. ( She wanted more room obviously) She packed off my bucket of tidbits didn't spill it just decided we should be moving on lol. I swear we wont get out if you don't attach the woven wire to the T post. She was a bottle baby and is an in your face kind of goat If its a bucket its hers even when its not.


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## ragdollcatlady (Jan 29, 2013)

Sorry I can't help with your parasite question, I'll keep watching to learn if anyone else helps though. 

Your little helper sounds like a bowl full of giggles....but only because I am not the one having my tools taken!


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 29, 2013)

The only "deer worm" I have ever heard of as being a problem for goats is meningeal worms and the symptoms would be more like limping, dragging legs, paralysis, etcetera. No offense, but the vet doesn't sound up to speed on goat parasites.  They would not show up an a fecal, and might not have to be put down, but it does not even sound like that is her issue anyway.

Article on deer worms/ meningeal worm

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html


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## heathen (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks pearce and no offense taken!! Nope don't sound like that kind of deer worm to me. I am curious and anxious to find out what he does test for and conclude. I hope it is curable and is was not an easy fix like a simple shot I didn't do or something I would feel horrible. We do have a sulfar salt block in the lot, I notice she licks it a lot but I always thought it was just the salt because she was scouring. 
I have trouble believing it to be a food or mineral issue since she is the only goat doing this. I took her off grain completely and she seemed to go down more so I put her back on it. The van is broke down so I will have a scouring goat in the back seat of my car LOL Going to put an old blanket down and hope she don't get nervous all over the window.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 29, 2013)

Ask your vet for the scientific name of his/her findings. Although I suspect Pearce is right in that he is probably referring to the meningeal worm.




> The only symptom she still has is diarrhea and dog log poop


Was she ill, am I missing something? if the symptoms are just the above it could be tapeworms. I just didn't know if there was another thread about your girl somewhere else and this has been going on for a while.

There are many parasites that are shared...

One of the liver fluke families... liver flukes can be found in cattle, sheep, goats, swine, deer, bison,elk,moose, woodchucks. depending if it is the American Liver Fluke, the Lancet liver fluke, or the common liver fluke.

Also the thread - necked nematode can be found in cattle,sheep, goats, bighorn sheep, and deer.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 29, 2013)

One of the first signs you would see is limping or weakness in the back end of the goat if your goat had Meningeal Worm. You can actually have the goat tested but it is a spinal tap and there aren't too many places that do that. Plus it would be very expensive.

Meningeal Worm is not contagious. I would be very careful of anything the vet says since she felt it was "deer worm" and would be contagious.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 29, 2013)

Edited. Pearce you beat me to it.  Saw deer worm and pulled up the link you have there.


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## heathen (Jan 29, 2013)

She s not limping or lame, she kidded early one was born dead the other still thriving although he was born before new years and does not eat 12 oz in a full day. He still jumps plays growing all normal. No temp no runny nose no pasty Eyes. We wormed with cydectin at 1 ml per 10 # every 3 days for a about 12 days we used safe guard and we also used albon and another wormer because I kept thinking worms. She never made much milk and has dried up now. She has the same food shelter water as all the other goats.  I keep thinking its food mineral related honestly but I didn't change her diet she just started scouring one day it never went way. Regardless of what it is I am certain she is tired of hurting. Her stomach does not grumble more than usual but when she goes to poop she grunts and throws her head back like she was kidding. So I am certain she is in pain. She is 6 and is up to date on all her shots.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 29, 2013)

*I don't know if you have another thread about her being sick somewhere that I missed, but a WHOLE bunch of other things could cause diarrhea and from the symptoms it doesn't sound like that's what your goat has. I would be looking for other things before that. Make sure you get a complete fecal done and hopefully it's just a simple cure!*


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## poorboys (Jan 30, 2013)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> One of the first signs you would see is limping or weakness in the back end of the goat if your goat had Meningeal Worm. You can actually have the goat tested but it is a spinal tap and there aren't too many places that do that. Plus it would be very expensive.
> 
> Meningeal Worm is not contagious. I would be very careful of anything the vet says since she felt it was "deer worm" and would be contagious.


and if not treated correctly the goat will die, I had one years ago that I bought and he had it, once it reaches the spinal colum and brain they ususally die. sorry


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## mjgh06 (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry but I would NOT take your goats to a vet that said if it had deer worm he would have to kill them!  He obviously doesn't know about goats or just doesn't care.  Here is my article on deer worm and yes deer worm is meningeal worm http://www.elwoodranch.com/med/goatworm/meningeal-worms/

Unless already to far gone, a goat does not have to be put down because of deer worm.  But it sounds like your girl may just have an upset rumen due to all the wormers used recently. "We wormed with cydectin at 1 ml per 10 # every 3 days for a about 12 days we used safe guard and we also used albon and another wormer because I kept thinking worms. "  That's just to many wormers to use and will build up a resistant to treatment in a goat fast making all the wormers ineffective.  It's best to test for worm and then treat based on findings.  If you can't test Valbazen is a good all around wormer.  Switching wormers often can tear up the rumen on a goat causing symptoms and illness.  With that said, what's done is done.  Stop the worming and let's start fresh.

You say she has diarrhea and constipated poop(dog log poop) at the same time???   Please explain and Let me know what other symptoms she had or is having.

First I would start her on Probiotic Powder as a top feed and give her B1 vitamins dosage = 250mg B1 tablets crushed as top feed or given whole 2 tablets the first hour,  1 tablet in six hours after first dose, then 1 tablet twice a day for five days or until 1 day after feces returns to normal whichever comes last. 

Second - 

If she has diarrhea - 15cc of Pepto Bismal every six hours until diarrhea starts to take a more solid form.

If she is constipated - Milk of Magnesia 15cc every six hours until she starts going again or going correctly.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 30, 2013)

poorboys said:
			
		

> ksalvagno said:
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> 
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Actually if not treated in the beginning stages, they probably won't make it. I've seen a lot of alpacas that had meningeal worm.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 30, 2013)

mjgh06 said:
			
		

> Sorry but I would NOT take your goats to a vet that said if it had deer worm he would have to kill them!  He obviously doesn't know about goats or just doesn't care.  Here is my article on deer worm and yes deer worm is meningeal worm http://www.elwoodranch.com/med/goatworm/meningeal-worms/
> 
> Unless already to far gone, a goat does not have to be put down because of deer worm.  But it sounds like your girl may just have an upset rumen due to all the wormers used recently. "We wormed with cydectin at 1 ml per 10 # every 3 days for a about 12 days we used safe guard and we also used albon and another wormer because I kept thinking worms. "  That's just to many wormers to use and will build up a resistant to treatment in a goat fast making all the wormers ineffective.  It's best to test for worm and then treat based on findings.  If you can't test Valbazen is a good all around wormer.  Switching wormers often can tear up the rumen on a goat causing symptoms and illness.  With that said, what's done is done.  Stop the worming and let's start fresh.
> 
> ...


I agree---start her on daily probiotics and nix the medication to let her digestive system settle.  Work on finding another vet and then get a fecal done before giving any medications from this point forward.


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## heathen (Feb 1, 2013)

So there is nothing wrong with her........ its diet related even though I put her in a stall for 2 weeks with timothy hay same hay I feed everything else. Fecals were negative Rumen was working. Anyone in the tristate KY OH WV area know a good goat vet? I am going to take fecals to another vet and see if it was just an off day for them in a week but I think I just waisted 80 $$


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 2, 2013)

The American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners has a find a vet option that might help.
http://www.aasrp.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=15


She may or may have something going on.  It could just be an upset system from all of the medications she has had, and then in that case, probiotics, good hay, some revitalyte, and time are in order.  When a goat's digestive system is irritated, they can actually have the lining of their intestines get raw and even sough off.  It takes time for it to repair so I would start with the above, then find a better vet to run a fecal.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 2, 2013)

How is she now? Is there any improvement?

Are you in Ohio? If you are, I would send a fecal sample in to the state lab. They do a great job with fecals.


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## heathen (Feb 2, 2013)

Honestly I thought she was going to die today. I gave her a bottle of Gatorade. Apparently she used to be a bottle baby and took it like a baby. She seems better still loose stool today pudding like. I am in KY Greenup county. I gave hay and she was eating it fine she drank the water. She was eating on the protein block again. She is walking around with the herd and does not seem to be in pain except when she poops. Her eyes are normal red color. I just don't get it.


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## mjgh06 (Feb 3, 2013)

What was she doing that made you think she was dying today?  Was she eating and drinking before the gatorade or started after?  Did you try the pepto for diarrhea?


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## heatherlynnky (Feb 3, 2013)

heathen said:
			
		

> So there is nothing wrong with her........ its diet related even though I put her in a stall for 2 weeks with timothy hay same hay I feed everything else. Fecals were negative Rumen was working. Anyone in the tristate KY OH WV area know a good goat vet? I am going to take fecals to another vet and see if it was just an off day for them in a week but I think I just waisted 80 $$


Good luck on finding a good goat vet. There is a Scott Blair near us. He owns dairy goats and only works with farm animals. I was told there is a pretty good one in Munfordville. No clue as to the name but I could find out. I am desperately trying to remember the one in Hodgenville but apparently they also specialize in goats.


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## heathen (Feb 4, 2013)

She would not come out of the shed. She just laid in it yelling I went up and when I did she jumped up and came over to see if I had treats. Of course I am not giving her any treats. except the Electro paste and I was out of it. I do have another sulphar block in the lot I forgot about. I noticed her eating it today so I took it out of the lot. She has pasture protein tub mineral lick and hay. I have been not letting her eat grain with the other goats still I know she got some today because she let herself back in the lot from the front yard some how. I think She climbed a wood pile and jumped into the lot. There was pooh on the pile anyway so I know she was on it. I have fecal ready to go tomorrow I honestly am not sure how she is still alive if nothing else I would have thought dehydration would have got her. I would think if it was worms she would have white eyes by now. If it was sickness she would have another symptom. Jeff keeps saying he thinks she is older than her papers say that she is. Still that wouldn't explain the poop problem.  She still has all her teeth and don't act like it hurts to eat. I know the other goats have started being mean to her. No one else has the poop problem he son started to scour ( he is on a bottle) but he is living with some young chickens and I caught him eating the medicated chick starter so I had to move thing around so he cant get into the chicken food. He is eating pellet hay and milk pellets but is not eating his bottle to well. Only about 12 to 16 ounces a day. He is a ND the 2 or 3 weeks younger pygmy goats are eating 10 ounce per feeding with 3 or 4 feedings a day. Does anyone know would a sulpher block cause this in goats?


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## ksalvagno (Feb 5, 2013)

I don't know anything about sulfur. There is never anything saying to feed sulfur to goats. I would suspect that too much sulfur could cause problems.

I really prefer a good loose goat mineral over the blocks. The blocks are high in molasses and that can cause problems too.


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## Shelly May (Feb 5, 2013)

The Vet in Hodgenville, KY is called Plantation vet clinic, PHONE # 1-270-324-4488 Dr. Keller is his name (he owns goats)


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 5, 2013)

That is weird that you mention the sulfur block because until last Friday, I had never even heard of such a thing (I was talking to someone about mites and the use of these blocks was brought up).  Sulfur blocks are not a good idea.   Even though this is written by a person who I think works for the mineral company SweetLix, it explains the problems with these blocks better than I could.   

http://www.sweetlix.com/media/documents/articles/Goat_019.pdf
Avoiding the Sulfur Trap By Jackie Nix

Many goat producers unwittingly sabotage their mineral supplement program by providing yellow sulfur salt blocks for the purpose of external parasite control in place of or in addition to granular mineral supplements or mineral blocks. All one need do is consult any of the Internet chat groups or visit the local sale barn to hear armchair veterinary advice about the so-called advantages of feeding sulfur salt to livestock. This article is intended to debunk the myths surrounding the feeding of sulfur for the purpose of parasite control and to bring to your attention the detrimental effects of excessive sulfur in the diet of goats.
*
Sulfurs Role in Parasite Control*
Sulfur has historically been used as a treatment for external parasites. Sulfur-containing compounds are even today extensively used to control external parasites of horticultural plants. Animal use is usually in the form of a lime-sulfur solution, which is applied externally to the animal. Topical use of sulfur is moderately successful in external parasite control. However, there is _no evidence_ that supports the belief that added sulfur in the diet controls external parasites such as flies, fleas, ticks, etc. Use of sulfur in this way falls into the category of wives tales and folk medicine. Not only has sulfur salt _not _been proven to control parasites, but also, excess sulfur can actually be _detrimental _to your goats. 

*Sulfur is Necessary in the Diet*
Sulfur is an essential mineral that is necessary for life. It is contained in every cell of the body. Sulfur concentrations are particularly high in hair, skin and hooves. Sulfur is found in many key compounds within the body including amino acids (methionine, cystine, cysteine and taurine) and B vitamins (thiamine and biotin). Compounds containing sulfur are responsible for structural integrity (collagen), chemical reactions (enzymes), oxygen transport (hemoglobin), energy regulation (insulin), and milk let down (oxytocin), as well as many other vital functions. 

Despite the fact that sulfur is a key mineral essential for life, addition of inorganic sulfur to the diet is not necessary for the health of most animals. Most animals receive adequate amounts of sulfur through organic sources (sulfur-containing amino acids, biotin, thiamine, etc) in their diet. Plants and microbes are capable of synthesizing sulfur-amino acids from inorganic sulfur, thus many feedstuffs typically fed to goats are rich in sulfur including: alfalfa, corn gluten feed, *molasses*, cottonseed meal, soybean meal, barley, yeast, etc. In fact, research has shown that excess sulfur in the diet results in reduced animal performance. The only exception of when additional inorganic sulfur is necessary is when a diet high in non-protein nitrogen is fed to goats. In this instance, the rumen microorganisms need inorganic sulfur in order to manufacture sulfur containing amino acids from the non-protein nitrogen. A common recommendation is to feed a nitrogen to sulfur ratio of 10:1 in diets containing high levels of non-protein nitrogen. 

*The Negative Effects of Excess Sulfur*
_Sulfur toxicity_. The margin between desirable and harmful concentrations of sulfur in a ruminant diet is surprisingly small. When excessive amounts of sulfur are present (greater than the ability of the rumen microbes to utilize it), the excess sulfur is absorbed into the animals bloodstream as sulphides. Sulphides are toxic and often result in reduced appetite and growth rate. Necrosis of neural tissues can also occur. In addition, some sulfur-compounds can destroy thiamine activity. Many now believe that development of PEM (polioencephalomalacia) is more closely tied with excess sulfur rather than thiamine deficiency. Classic symptoms of PEM include goats that often press their head against a wall or post or become star gazers, where they stand with their head back over the shoulders looking up at the sky. If not treated with thiamine, most affected animals will die within 48 hours.  

_Mineral Interactions_. Sulfur directly interacts with other essential minerals including copper, selenium and molybdenum. Chronic exposure to high sulfur in the diet has an adverse effect on ruminants, particularly by inducing copper deficiency. Excess sulfur in the rumen reduces the bioavailability of copper by formation of insoluble copper sulfides, which cannot be utilized by the animal. By rendering the copper that is present unavailable, the copper requirement is thus increased by the presence of excess sulfur. Copper deficiency is exacerbated when excessive levels of molybdenum are present. 

Copper is needed by a variety of key systems in the body. Numerous key enzymes necessary for reproduction, immunity and growth require copper. In addition, copper is necessary for proper metabolism of iron, maintenance of connective tissue, pigmentation of skin and hair, maturation of hoof tissue, and many other functions. Goats that are mildly to severely deficient in copper will display one or more the of following symptoms: rough, discolored hair coats (red tinge on black hair or loss of pigment around the eyes); winter coats that are slow to shed out; decreased conception rates; increased days open; hoof problems and/or depressed immunity.

*The Bottom Line*
Use of yellow sulfur salt blocks has no proven effect on control of flies, ticks, fleas, mosquitoes or other external parasites in livestock. Providing yellow sulfur salt blocks to goats can be detrimental in the following ways:
1. Sulfur salt blocks provide excessive amounts of sulfur in the diet, which can result in possible sulfur toxicity, development of PEM and induced copper deficiency.
2. The salt delivered by the sulfur salt blocks inhibits consumption of more balanced free choice mineral supplements.
3. Sulfur salt blocks do not provide balanced levels of other essential nutrients.


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## heathen (Feb 5, 2013)

Well I had it in there a long time ago and forgot about it honestly. Grandpa always had a sulfur block out with his cows and sheep He said it killed worms of course he also used coal and kerosene to worm poultry and hogs. I think I bought it absence of the white salt lick that I usually get. She was not squirting poop today. I would feel like such a bad owner if I was poisoning her with a sulfur block. Thanks for the name and number of the vet I  will make an appointment with him. Thanks for all the help as always.
Heath


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