# Cows! Cows! I want some cows!



## TheCluckyClucker (Nov 22, 2021)

I really want some cows. Like a small business. This would not be happening anytime soon, but I would like to learn. We have plenty of property, but no fences. There was cows here before. We have a local sale barn. So here is how it goes. You get some cows and a bull. You keep all of their heifer offspring and sale the bull calves. Then, when your original cows get old, you sale them and continue the cycle. So can someone inform me on some general information and answer a few specific questions. There are some qualities that I would like. I would like for them to reproduce easily, not be too aggressive, Highlands are not an option (They are too cute), They need not to be expensive, and they need to achieve a decent sale price.

What kind of housing is best?
What kind of fencing is best?
What breed of cows do you own?
What breed of cows do you suggest?
What do I feed cows?
How many acres do I fence in?
Does the FFA still do a fencing program?
I have looked at a few different breed including: Longhorns, Hereford, Holstein, Brahman, Red Angus, Black Angus, and Charolais. Thank You!


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## Baymule (Nov 22, 2021)

I’ve had cattle before, don’t have any now and don’t profess to be any kind of expert at all. LOL Expert definition— Ex is a used to be and spert is a drip. LOL

Go to sale barns in your area and see which cattle bring the best prices. I can tell you that cattle with black hides bring more because everybody knows black hair tastes the best. Sorry, can’t resist being a smart Alec. 

What are your range conditions? What is your weather and location? 

Fence. A 5-6 strand barbed wire fence with well set corners and 16’ gates for truck and trailer swing room. Also wide enough gates for tractors and equipment to go through. 

What is plenty of property? How many acres do you have? 

Housing. Cows wear leather coats. Barns for hay storage are nice and working pens, loading chutes, corral for feeding the cattle in so that they will come in. Then it is easier to sort them, run them through the chute for vaccinations, worming and maybe dehorning. Banding testicals or wean bull calves and take to sale. 

What grass do you have? 

It isn’t as simple as it seems. You have to have a standard for the cattle to fit your property. You don’t want a high headed cow, a crazy cow looking to jump the fence or run you down. You have to keep the best, sell the rest. 

@farmerjan is our resident cattle ( I sure don’t want to say expert) uhhh… knowledgeable person! Yeah! That’s it! Knowledgeable! Got any advice Jan?


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## TheCluckyClucker (Nov 22, 2021)

Again, it will be a few years before cows may appear. I live in Central Arkansas. In Winter it rarely gets in the negatives. In Summer it rarely gets above 100 degrees Fahrenheit. We have roughly 10 acres. We have a barn but I plan to make a horse stall out of it. We are working on fencing for horses this winter. @Baymule What info do you have to give me on horses. I have done some research on them. We do have some small silos that would work great. I have no idea what kind of grass we have but it has supported cows before. Knowledgeable is a wonderful work indeed.


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## farmerjan (Nov 22, 2021)

@Baymule  tagged me so I will try to answer what questions I can, but I have as many for you..... Again Bay asked most.   First off.... WELCOME to the forum.   We have a pretty diverse and interesting group here.  

Can you please put your general area/state in your profile.  Go up to your name at the top right, down to account details, and under location put in a general area as you see many of us have.   It makes a BIG difference in suggestions for breeds, feeds etc....

Yes, go to the sale barn, SIT ON YOUR HANDS and watch and LISTEN.  Learn what sells best in your area.  Here in Va anything with "ear" or with "leather".....meaning brahma type influence,  will get badly discounted..... Herefords take a hit due to many thinking they all get pinkeye and they all have crummy udders.....BLACK is the color that sells as Bay says... black hide makes them taste better......

It is a marketing thing that the angus assoc started and has been VERY SUCCESSFUL.... not saying right or wrong... just that they made it work.  Partly due to the fact that the Japanese had a big influence years ago and that angus beef was considered superior to other breeds so then it became a way to sell beef and became a marketing tool.  So they set up a set of standards for "angus beef" that is not necessarily angus.... it is from "black angus influenced" cattle.  
Anyway.... yes, get specific with the following things:   How much land, what types of grass, do you have a way to make hay,  what does your weather require as far as supplemental feeding......are you in an area that direct sales of beef would be more profitable than sale of feeder/weaned cattle.


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## TheCluckyClucker (Nov 22, 2021)

At the moment, if we were to get cows soon, we would buy hay. Thank you for the warm welcome. I will try to go to the sale barn one Saturday. Here, we have quite a few cattle beef business.


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## farmerjan (Nov 22, 2021)

Okay, I see you just posted while I was typing an answer.  First off, if you have a horse/horses, you will find that 10 acres will not go very far.   MOST  areas, like here, with decent amounts of moisture.... will support 1 cow calf pair to 2 acres.... using rotational grazing practices.  You are looking at maybe 2-4 cows max.   Honestly not worth having a bull full time as a breeder.  So you are looking to see if there would be a bull available to lease for a 60 day breeding season.  All according to how many horses you have, you will have little or no pasture available for cattle grazing.  Overgrazing will result in more weeds and poorer grass in the long run.  

All of us cattle breeders that have an operation where we figure costs pretty close,  from people I know in Texas to Georgia to some in  Canada.... all agree that it costs in the neighborhood of 450-600 per year per cow to cover all costs of feed, grazing value, vaccinations, everything except depreciation..... You will be lucky to sell feeder calves off for more than the 5-600 average return on 450-500 lb feeders at 6-7 months old.   That is for steer calves....heifers bring less.  It takes 2 years to get a heifer raised up before she has her first calf... so she does not provide you with any return on investment for nearly 3 years... You will have 1200 in that heifer before you can sell her first calf off.... 
So if it costs you 500/yr to cover all costs of keeping a cow, and if she has a bull calf, that you make a steer, and it grows good and you can sell it off at 7 months for 6-700.... you have made 200 off that cow for a year's worth of work.... If she has a heifer calf, and you sell it at 7 months and get 500 back then you  might have paid for the cow's costs for the year.  If she has a dead calf, you have a lost year... if she breeds back late then you have a calf to sell off after 18 months instead of every 12..... if she doesn't breed back then you can cull her and prices will run in the 4-600 return for a cull cow.... varies with weight and time of year and demand.  I have sold 1200 lb cows for $. 40/ lb and been glad to get it when the market is down. 

Your best bet would be to get a couple of head at 4-600 lbs and raise up for your own beef.   The value will be much greater as beef in your freezer than to try to make a small cow calf operation work with only that much ground.  Hay this year is expensive, there is a real shortage in the southwest.... our hay yield this spring was about 2/3 of normal... we are still making hay now since later growth has been better, but it takes a long time to get it dry and days are short.  We are selling sq bales here for 6-7.00 for just average hay... 8.00 for sq bales of orchard grass.... and barely paying our costs with the price of fuel being higher this year, labor being hard to come by, and equipment costs continuing to go up.....We are not taking any new customers on as we can barely keep our long time customers supplied.   

Hope this is a little help.  I am not trying to be discouraging... but you have to have a realistic overview.  We run over 150 head of brood cows, selling off 75-80% of the calves, and can barely make our payments on equipment and land.... Fertilizer has already gone up 80% and there is no relief in sight.  Next year we will be hard pressed to be able to fertilize the land we do now... and it will cost an average of $700/acre to put out corn next year for us to chop for silage......not counting the chopping/bagging costs.... which is about $200-250 more than this years costs.
There is no cheap way to raise cattle.  And there is no easy way to "make a profit" if you truly figure in the costs.


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## farmerjan (Nov 22, 2021)

I think that you will find that most of the beef cattle operations have either been in business for years and the farms are paid for and the people doing it are willing to do it for little or no return.  Or they have other jobs and the income from the cattle is not that important.... most will use it as a write off against farm taxes.   So they are not expecting the cattle to make them money..... and many people do not figure in the total actual costs of what it really costs.


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## TheCluckyClucker (Nov 22, 2021)

Just trying to learn. We have family land surrounding us that we could use to put cows on. I really want horses right now instead of cows, so that will come first. When we get a fence I have 2 horses that my Grandpa already said I could have. One is about 20 yrs. old and the other about 8 yrs. old.


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## Baymule (Nov 22, 2021)

Horses are a hole in your pocket that you dump money in. I usually keep 3 or 4. Haha. I have none at the moment, it may be a year or two before I can get horses again. Terrible. I was shopping online today…….. 

20 and 8 are good ages, they should be settled and sensible.  Although I had a Tennessee Walker mare the no matter how old she got, she was spooky and looked for monsters. I retired her at 30. 

Your Grandpa can help you with what to feed them, hay and such. I’m sure he is a wealth of information.


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## Alaskan (Nov 22, 2021)

farmerjan said:


> I think that you will find that most of the beef cattle operations have either been in business for years and the farms are paid for and the people doing it are willing to do it for little or no return.  Or they have other jobs and the income from the cattle is not that important.... most will use it as a write off against farm taxes.   So they are not expecting the cattle to make them money..... and many people do not figure in the total actual costs of what it really costs.


All true. 

Hard to make income from cattle unless you have a bunch of land.

And yes... black hide sells best  but my grandfather refused to go away from polled Herefords.  

Herefords are well known for calving ease, great mothering, and easy to manage.  BUT that also depends on how you manage your cattle, and genetics. 

My grandfather selected carefully for his herd, making sure that they were easy to handle and manage (as well as the regular things).  The last cow that we had that had eye issues was sold when I was kid.  He had selected carefully against eye issues until it was no longer a problem. 

He had the polled herefords so he didn't have to worry about horns.

He always bought a super young bull, from a breeder that (as well as all of the usual things) selected for gentle well mannered bulls that were trained to not push up against you. 

Then my grandfather would keep the bull for about 3 years, at which point the bull would start to "feel his oats" so he would be sold and replaced with a new young one.  That strategy was so our fences could stay in horrid shape.   No joke.  Also, selling a young proven bull meant he almost made money on the bull, since he bought them young and untried.

He also sold any cow that felt like running through fences was a good idea. 

And my grandfather had them all trained to come when called, so it was easy to move them.

BUT, then there is my cousin, she also has cattle, scrub cattle and some herefords.  She doesn't manage them like my grandfather did his.  She is pretty hands off.  As a result, when trying to load a few up her brother was royally trampled.  Super bad.

Bad accidents can happen with any large animal....


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## Cecilia's-herd (Nov 23, 2021)

Baymule said:


> . I can tell you that cattle with black hides bring more because everybody knows black hair tastes the best. Sorry, can’t resist being a smart Alec.


🙄🙄🙄


Alaskan said:


> Hard to make income from cattle unless you have a bunch of land


And especially easy when that land is payed off. 

Dad has a mix of black angus and British white to keep mama happy. She’s more of the type to like pretty cows. That angus bull is horribly mean though! Watch out! LOL


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## River Buffaloes (Nov 23, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> All true.
> 
> Hard to make income from cattle unless you have a bunch of land.
> 
> ...


I have seen people getting trampled by cows and ending up in the ER. Our last veterinarian was trampled pretty badly and had to go through multiple surgeries. Thankfully he was a government veterinarian so his bills were paid by the government.


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## River Buffaloes (Nov 23, 2021)

10 acres is a typical holding in India and most of the East where there are a lot more farmers. More often than not their go to big animals are Buffaloes and pigs, not cows and horses. 

Water Buffaloes are much more suited than cows for small farms. They can provide everything that a cow can provide and more. They are also much more docile and intelligent. Here's a video from Arkansas Farm Bureau.


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## TheCluckyClucker (Nov 23, 2021)

Water Buffalo may be worth researching. Seems like they match quite a few of my qualities.


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## Alaskan (Nov 23, 2021)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> And especially easy when that land is payed off.


I haven't found that to be true.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Nov 23, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> I haven't found that to be true.


Interesting. I think we have taken 2 very different paths in this life. And that's ok. God's plan right? 🤗


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## Alaskan (Nov 23, 2021)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> Interesting. I think we have taken 2 very different paths in this life. And that's ok. God's plan right? 🤗


I don't follow at all.

It sounds to me like you are saying that it is my choice that the family place isn't more profitable?



I have visited with many Texas ranchers, and making a place profitable,  even if you own the land outright, is difficult.

Maybe it is because the area of Texas I am familiar with you need a stupid large amount of land...  20 acres for a single cow is common, but there is plenty of land that is way worse.

A bull costs money...  spread that bull over 5 cows, it costs you more per cow.  Spread that bull over 40 cows then the bull costs less per cow.  Most other costs are the same way...  if you have more land,  so more stock, it is easier to make a profit.  Same with the equipment.   One trailer to haul 4 calves to market... one trailer to haul 100 calves to market...  with 100 calves you might need to make more than one trip... but still only ONE trailer and ONE truck.

If you have a family spread of 40,000 acres, yeah, it is WAY easier to make a profit.

Or maybe if you live in one of those wet areas...  

But having to work hard at diversifying the property,  and oozing out every potential dollar,  and still just getting by....   from my experience and from all the ranchers I grew up with, talked to and knew.... that is normal. 

I don't think I have "chosen" the path of  "it is difficult to make a profit" from the land instead of taking the "it is especially easy to make a profit" path.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Nov 23, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> If you have a family spread of 40,000 acres, yeah, it is WAY easier to make a profit.


I think he has about 120,000 acres? I stoped counting. 

What I was trying to say is inherited land is, in my experience, easier to work with than if you are starting fresh. We live in a fertile area, not so much wet and marshy. 

I’ve never been to Texas! I’d it really dry over there?


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## Alaskan (Nov 23, 2021)

Inherited land doesn't always mean you inherited 120,000 acres.  Not everyone gets that much, and YES, if you have that much land I would think it would be easy to make money.

Texas is huge...  East Texas has rain, but not always fertile... so over there you need to watch minerals more.

West Texas gets drier the further west you go.  We joke about land so dry you need 2/40 cattle... cattle with mouths 2 feet wide that can run 40 miles an hour, since no other way can they get enough to eat.

Another joke is the classic "yep, we got our 6 inches of annual rainfall last year.... I remember the night it came".

And yes, most of my family land is 20 acres for a single cow.  We have a little bottom land that is 18 acres for a single cow,  and some rockier land that is 22 acres a cow...  and we are located on the wetter side of west Texas.

Most settlers coming to Texas got 360 acres of land.  Those who stayed in ranching did their best to consolidate and buy more land.  

Those that did manage to make a go of ranching, had at least 1 or 2 thousand acres, but often much more.

However...  that era of consolidation and ranch founding was back in the 1800s.

A number of generations have happened since. Each generation,  if you have more than one kid.... what do you do with the land?

And then you end up with places that are just too small to support a family as the only income.  

You want a retirement fund?  Sell the family place so it can become a subdivision,  and live like a king.  

If you want the land to stay ranch land... it is not an easy path.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Nov 23, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> If you want the land to stay ranch land... it is not an easy path.


He made me promise to keep it in the family. Crazy old man. But I understand. And I will respect his wishes.


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## TheCluckyClucker (Nov 23, 2021)

@Baymule Are you also on BYC?


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## Baymule (Nov 24, 2021)

TheCluckyClucker said:


> @Baymule Are you also on BYC?


I started years ago on BYC, then came over to BYH, TEG and SS.


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## Jennbramlett (Dec 15, 2021)

What if I wanted to raise one cow for meat.
How many acres would I need


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## Alaskan (Dec 15, 2021)

Jennbramlett said:


> What if I wanted to raise one cow for meat.
> How many acres would I need


Depend where you are in the world.

Some areas are 40 acres for a single cow...  some are 3.


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## Jennbramlett (Dec 15, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> Depend where you are in the world.
> 
> Some areas are 40 acres for a single cow...  some are 3.


South GA
I have 2.5 acres fenced in for 5 goats, and some chickens
Thought about buying a calve to raise for slaughter


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## Alaskan (Dec 15, 2021)

Jennbramlett said:


> South GA
> I have 2.5 acres fenced in for 5 goats, and some chickens
> Thought about buying a calve to raise for slaughter


I have no idea how pasture is in south Georgia, but I would guess loads of parasites in all that heat and wet.

I would suggest you find your local extension agent and ask them to look up your property on the soils map, and tell you the carrying capacity of your land.

The local extension agent should have lots of free info.  Some times they will even make free house calls where they walk your land, te you want plants you have, and help you figure out a management plan.


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## farmerjan (Dec 15, 2021)

If you already have 5 goats on that property, you will not be able to feed an animal for butcher also.  We figure about 5-6 head sheep equals 1 head of cattle.  Goats will eat some stuff the cow won't eat, but between both of them 2.5 acres won't feed both.  If you are supplementing with hay then you ought to be fine.  Here in Va we figure 2-3 acres per cow during the grazing season... May through Oct... for just grass/grazing.  Sometimes we get by with April through Nov if we have had a decent amount of rain.  This year it was dry early and pastures were not great, but then we got rain later in Aug/Sept and we still have some grazing at 2 pastures.  They will be coming home in another 2 weeks.  I don't know your growing season, and what types of grass.... I think you get more rain than us on average, and your growing season starts sooner, but you get alot hotter in the summer and so some of your grasses will stop growing... and if you have hot weather grasses, they won't grow until the weather gets alot warmer than Mar/Apr..... I think raising one steer for meat is a great idea, but you will want to be able to maybe rotate it so it will have more growing grass... like allowing 1/2 acre or so at a time..... and the grass in the other sections can regrow... it would be wise to do that with the goats too as it helps to keep the parasite load lower.  

I totally agree with what @Alaskan said about contacting the local extension agency for your county or area.  They will have the knowledge to tell you who/what/where/ and when  about the carrying capacity of your particular place.


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