# Ketosis-Do they ever completely recover?



## FunnyFarm (Apr 14, 2010)

My 2 year old doe gave birth last wednesday to twins. She was fine Wednesday & Thursday talking, feeding, & doting on her new babies. She's a very good mother. Seemed like everything was fine. I didn't get to see the actual birth The babies were up, dry, & nursing when I got there, but I did see her pass one afterbirth. Friday morning I went up to feed everyone & she seemed lethargic. I thougth she was just tired from all the work but checked on her again 2 hours later & just had a feeling something wasn't right about her. The vet couldn't get her in til 4PM so I took her in (I was 45 minutes early). He diagnosed her with a uterine infection & she peed while we were in the exam room so he got a urine sample & she has ketosis. He gave her the initial shots but also sent us home with directions to give 10ml penicillin injections 1x a day, Thiamin shots 2xs a day, & 30cc Propylene Glycol 2x a day. She got worse Saturday, not eating, she constantly was moving to the left in a circle around her stall, getting "stuck" on anything in her way & staring blankly. She stopped "talking" to the babies but did seem to know they were there & didn't step on them. Sunday was worse, not eating, still the slow constant circle to the left but wasn't aware of her babies anymore. I had to hold her up for them to nurse. She locked her jaw & wouldn't swallow anymore so I called the vet Saturday & he said to quit giving the Propylene, it might go in her lungs. I got on Fias Co Farm website & saw she suggested Karo & Molasses every 2 hours. So I started that Saturday & did it until Sunday nite. It did seem to be easier for her to stomache. Sunday I let her out & followed her around she seemed to want the grass but couldn't get her brain to function so I pulled grass & if I put it in her mouth she would chew it & swallow. I complelely separated her from her babies on Sunday about 6PM  & tried to bottle feed but they absolutely would not have anything to do with it. So about midnite I took them back & was going to hold her for them to nurse. Surprisingly she was able to stand on her own & seemed to be a little more "clear" & to my suprise had eaten the grain I was keeping in her stall. Monday still eating. This whole time I have physically had to pull her down to rest, she would not lay down or stop moving to the left, but would sleep if I held her. Tuesday eating, but still the blank stare, but can lay down, & move straight with occasional stumbling to the left. Talking to her babies on occasion & very aware of their whereabouts. Will she ever completely recover or it this irreversible nerve damage? Then yesterday I also noticed diarrhea in my pen for my wethers & my buck had clumpy stools in his. I had opened a new bale of hay on Thursday night. Is it possible to have gotten a bad bale of hay? I have pulled that batch of hay & cleaned it out of everyones stalls. Sorry this is so long but I wanted you to have all the facts.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

The propylene glycol is only really to get them enough quick energy to feel normal enough to _eat_ again....at which point you feed the fire out of them.

See, ketosis isn't a nervous system disorder; it's where they rapidly burn their own body fat (and muscle, sometimes) for energy.  Turning fat into energy is an incomplete process which produces ketones..  In a normal slimming process, they're able to clear the ketones because they're released in smaller amounts.  In ketosis, they're released in huge quantities and the body can't clear them fast enough.

Have you increased her grain ration since she started eating again??


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 14, 2010)

I have been feeding her as much as she is willing to eat. I give her a cup of grain & she usually only eats about half & then later nibbles the rest until it's gone. Once I find it empty I fill it with another cup. She has new hay free choice at all times. So, you don't think the walking to the left only & the blank stare are permanent?


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

I think she's probably still clearing ketones, and she may still be weak.  It's a really, really good sign that she's regaining the wherewithal to eat, though.  

If she were here, I'd probably continue with quick energy (karo, molasses, etc) until she were eating pretty good.


One thing concerns me...  When you say "a cup," what does that mean exactly?  We see references to _cups_ a lot on this forum, and when I hear "a cup," I think of a _dry measuring cup_.  

For a long time, I'd gotten in the habit of saying "a cup's not very much" only to have people reply with "oh no, it's a biggie cup from Wendy's" or whatever...which isn't really _a cup_ at all.  

Not frustrating at all, either..  :/ 

So, when you say "a cup" are you talking a dry measuring cup, a fast food cup, or.....because I'm always, always, always concerned that someone will read "cup cup cup cup cup" on this forum and think "Ok, I need to be feeding a cup because that's what such-and-such and so-and-so do"...and then reach for a dry measuring cup when most others are reaching for fast food cups.

Better yet, _how many pounds_ of grain are you offering?  

And while we're at it, what kind of grain is it?


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 14, 2010)

I am referring to a 1 cup measuring cup. She is a pygmy & weighs 35 pounds. The feed is Nutrena Nature wise Goat Feed. I was feeding her a measuring cup 2x a day but now am giving her as much as she wants. When I find the bowl empty I give her another 1 cup. I don't have a scale so I don't know how many pounds that would be.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

I've never owned pygmies, but that sounds pretty light to be 2yo..  I'm guessing she's lost a lot of weight recently, though, through the ketosis..

All in all, I guess the best you can probably do here is just try to keep her energy levels up using high energy supplements as necessary, keep feeding her, watch for acidosis (from energy supplementation and/or increased grain ration), and make absolutely sure she's drinking water..  Goats love lukewarm water, and if mixing a little molasses in there or something would entice her more, all the better...water _and_ carbohydrate.  She really needs to consume lots of water right now, as water will help her flush the ketones from her system.  

Keep us posted..  I think when she really starts coming around, the circling and blank stare should go away and she should return to normal.  More than any kind of permanent nervous system damage -- which is unlikely, I think, given that the nervous system doesn't play too much of a role in ketosis --  I'd be curious about the long-term effects of ketosis on the liver, kidneys, etc., since they're responsible for clearing the toxicity she's in now..  

But even that's not something you read about, yanno?  Organ damage, I mean..  I'd just worry about getting her back to the point that she gobbles down grain...and then I'd seriously try my very best to get her FAT.  

With her just coming out of ketosis and in lactation, that would be hard to do.


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## Roll farms (Apr 14, 2010)

That sounds like a textbook case of listeriosis to me, and yes, it can come from bad hay.  

(I'm saying Ketosis AND Listeriosis...what a double whammy to get hit with after kidding...poor girl.)

(I've had 2 goats with it...it's not a blank stare or locked jaw, they get paralyzed on one side from brain swelling.)

The good thing is, high levels of penicillin is the best cure and you did a great job of keeping her fed.

Here are a couple links w/ info...

Scroll down to Listeriosis section on this page 
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

Here's another

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/listeriosis/listeriosis_gwmf.shtml

Both of my goats who had it recovered and lived perfectly normal and productive lives afterward.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> That sounds like a textbook case of listeriosis to me, and yes, it can come from bad hay.
> 
> (I'm saying Ketosis AND Listeriosis...what a double whammy to get hit with after kidding...poor girl.)
> 
> ...


I had that thought as well, Roll, based on the 'walking in circles' comment, but I came to the opinion that the circling is more likely a result of blindness (or _partial_ blindness) from the ketosis than from another completely distinct disease process..  

I came to that opinion by weighing the two possibilities and keeping the whole 'occam's razor' thing in mind:  "Plurality should not be posited without necessity."  That is to say, which one the possibilities explained all the symptoms with the least degree of complexity?

So, I asked myself...is it necessary to include a whole different and distinct disease process to explain the circling, when we already know the doe is ketotic?  

The conclusion I came to was that the chances of seeing ketosis and listeriosis at the same time seem _far_ less likely than blindness caused by the ketosis itself -- especially considering that blindness is actually a symptom of advanced ketosis.

Does that make sense?


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 14, 2010)

Thanks for the hopeful words. I'm just worried sick about her. I spent 3 days living in the barn with her & the babies. 
I will be feeding her as much as she will eat with grain, free choice hay, & minerals. I also keep free choice baking soda out too. I take her out in the yard to get some browse everyday now too. 
She has been drinking but the molassas in the water is a great idea. She is a very small girl & has always been on the thin side no matter how much she is given.
I accidentally, in my sleep deprived stupor was giving her double the dose of penicillin for 2 days. I guess that may have been a good thing. 
The vet is due to come out today any minute, so I am going to follow up with him on the Listeriosis issue.

Thanks once again for the encouraging words. Hopefully I can relax soon & start enjoying the adorable babies she had. 

Oh, & you guys warned me last year about them waiting til you leave to deliver. And yes, she did it again. I was home 4 days straight & checking on her every couple hours or so. I had to leave that wednesday for work & checked her at 11AM before I left...nothing abnormal. When I got home at 5PM she had two babies, up, dry, & nursing in her stall. I swear she waited until she heard my car tires hit the road pavement!


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

FunnyFarm said:
			
		

> She is a very small girl & has always been on the thin side no matter how much she is given.


Does she have mineral available?

I looked at the nutrena naturewise goat page, and something that caught my eye was where it says "limited copper to help minimize risk of copper toxicity."

I don't really like the way that sounds..  :/  It reads like classic "Business Writing 101," where you're taught to take negatives and turn them into something speciously positive-sounding.  

Like, "Closed Sunday." versus "Open six days a week for your convenience!"...that sort of trickery.

We had a couple of goats who, no matter what we did, just WOULD NOT gain and stayed a consistent BCS2.5 or so..  Prolly 3, in actuality, but when everything else is running on the fat side, a BCS3 seems too thin.

Anyway...we copper bolused and started setting out high quality mineral, free choice, refreshed regularly, and lo and behold, the persistently thin ones have nice little cushies behind their elbows now.  They seem more parasite resistant, too.

I'm asking primarily because I noticed that "positive" about the feed you're using, and it kinda made me wonder what other minerals they were "limiting"...ya know?

FWIW...even though I don't personally think it's likely to be a ketosis/listeriosis combo you're looking at, do follow up with your vet as you'd planned.  Couldn't hurt.


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## Roll farms (Apr 14, 2010)

Whether it is or isn't Listeriosis, this is not a case of 'best diagnosis wins'...I just didn't want her / them / the vet to overlook a possible issue.

The first goat I had w/ Listeriosis, came down w/it 2 months after she recovered from Tetanus, and I had to figure her diagnosis out myself, my 'good' goat vet was out of town.....

The second one had it 3 days after a debilitating bout of Urinary Calculi.

Which leads me to believe it's an opportunistic bug that can flare up when a goat is already down....like from kidding / ketosis.

Whatever it is, good luck w/ her.  *crossing fingers*


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 14, 2010)

When I was reading the articles on Listeriosis I noticed they said a change in feed could also bring it about. I did change to the Nutrena from Purina Goat Feed around March 10th. I'm just trying to think everything thru.

The vet gave me more penicillin which is the same as the one recommended in the article & more Thiamin shots so he said she will be covered in case it is the Listeriosis along with the Ketosis. 

I get what you are saying about the "positive" on the grain. I do offer free choice minerals, the Manna Pro with Amonium Chloride for the boys. I also top dress the feed. 

She has always been thin compared to my Buck & 2 wethers who are on the pudgy side.:/

I just had her out in the pasture for a couple of hours. I have to stay with her because she won't eat without her babies there & in her condition she isn't able to protect them. She ate alot of grass n such but still has the blank stare & no right turns. 

Thanks for all the input I needed to hear some advice, to calm my nerves.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Whether it is or isn't Listeriosis, this is not a case of 'best diagnosis wins'...I just didn't want her / them / the vet to overlook a possible issue.


Well...  ...my experience with goats is that it often comes down to "best diagnosis wins" since _actual, confirmed_ diagnoses tend to be few and far between.  

My not mentioning the possibility of listeriosis was actually rooted in a problem that I consider to be equally common and equally detrimental....having a list of 29,382 things that a given goat's problems could be.

Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other I suppose.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 14, 2010)

It's ok, CM, other people can be right.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 14, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> It's ok, CM, other people can be right.


I know, but it's just so rare in my world that I'm unaccustomed to it.  

TOTALLY J/K.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 14, 2010)

It probably wouldn't hurt to give her some CMPK also.


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 14, 2010)

CMPK?


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## Roll farms (Apr 14, 2010)

She's referring to this....

http://goats.wetpaint.com/page/Hypocalcemia+-+CMPK+Kitchen+Recipe

Meant to treat this...

http://kinne.net/hypocal2.htm

It's good info to have for future reference, but I don't think that Hypocalcemia is part of the problem at this point.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 15, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> She's referring to this....
> 
> http://goats.wetpaint.com/page/Hypocalcemia+-+CMPK+Kitchen+Recipe
> 
> ...


I don't think it's hypocalcemia but there's been some discussion about how CMPK can also help out with ketosis under the theory that ketosis and hypocalcemia can be linked.  Here's  an article about it.  

I personally don't feed any alfalfa (or other calcium rich foods) preparturition, but many people swear by it.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 19, 2010)

How is she doing?  Any updates?


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 19, 2010)

She is improving daily. I still haven't seen any definite right turns yet tho. She seems to have regained most of her vision & doesn't have the blank straight ahead stare. She has started coming to me again for affection. She doesn't seem to be very comfortable with going out to graze yet. I have to lead her out & bring the babies when she does go, & then she usually only stays out for an hour then goes back in the barn. I have been feeding her as much grain as she will eat. Usually about 5 measuring cups a day. ( I actually give her about 6 but have to account for the chickens getting in the stall & stealing some ) I am no longer giving meds since Saturday. 

My girl is almost back! I am so relieved. Thanks to everyone for all the help & great reference links. 

I will try to post pics later my computer has been giving me fits when I try.


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## FunnyFarm (Apr 19, 2010)

Lets try again with the pics.
















Heres momma last year with her first baby.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 19, 2010)

Glad to hear she's improving!  The babies are kyoooot!


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## MissJenny (Apr 27, 2010)

Glad to hear she is doing better day by day -- such an ordeal. Those babies, though, are irresistable! Too too adorable. 

Jenny


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