# CL... what exactly is it?



## newbiekat (Jun 22, 2017)

I have read and read and read and all I can find is that it is a disease resulting in abscesses (if external) that if they rupture, it is extremely contagious to other goats... but what exactly is contagious? What happens to the goat? Why do most things I read say to cull the goat, but more specifically that the goat should be put down instead of spreading the CL to other farms?


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## babsbag (Jun 23, 2017)

There are about as many opinions on CL as they are people. Some say cull, some say you can live with it, but either way it is your choice. I would never buy a goat with CL because I choose not to deal with it. 

If CL is external the pus is contagious. The thing is you have no way of knowing if it is internal or not. If it is internal and in the lungs it could also be spread by coughing or possibly even in the water. It just depends on where the abscesses are. Many goats live with CL and do fine and you might see an occasional abscess. Others get it internally and it can kill them

If it is a meat goat or sheep the carcass will be condemned at the slaughter house because of the abscesses and even if the entire carcass isn't condemned portions of it will be cut away and there is a substantial financial loss. 

It is possible that the CL bacteria can be in the milk if an abscess is in the udder and it is a disease that people can contract, possibly through the milk. 

It would just be morally wrong to take a CL + goat to auction and send it to another farm where the buyer has no idea that the goat has CL.


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## newbiekat (Jun 23, 2017)

So what does it do to the goat then? Kill them, eventually? Why is everyone up in arms about it?

I still don't understand. You said the pus is contagious. I'm aware of that, but what does it DO to the goat? I'm still not getting that part...

Sorry if I sound mean, I'm not trying to. I'm really just trying to understand the disease, and kind of in a stressful spot because we are in a place where we may have to get rid of our herd if that's the case...

ETA: I've read about injecting formalin into the abscess and letting it die within the casing internally, and falling off as a non contagious scab, but I know a vet is needed due to the risk of potentially getting into the bloodstream or muscle and killing either the muscle or the goat.


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## babsbag (Jun 23, 2017)

A goat that has external abscesses will not die from CL; internal can kill them.  If you have one or two goats and have no plans for more and don't care that you have to deal with it then keep it.  If you want to show, sell, stud out your buck, send you doe out to be bred, drink raw milk, or have a clean herd in the future then keeping goats with CL becomes an impossible task. 

I have read about the formalin injections and while it may work it doesn't stop another abscess from forming. I have also read that it is incredibly painful.


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## newbiekat (Jun 23, 2017)

What does it do to the milk?


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## babsbag (Jun 23, 2017)

The CL bacteria can be in the milk if there is an abscess in the udder and if the milk is used raw it can infect the person drinking it, also the goat's kids when they nurse.


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## newbiekat (Jun 23, 2017)

Thank you for your help @babsbag . We are going into the vet this afternoon to see what they say. They said most often you can pretty much tell by looking at the consistency of the goop that comes out, but they will still send it off to culture.


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## babsbag (Jun 23, 2017)

I didn't know that you were dealing with this firsthand, sorry to hear that. You can also tell by the location as they are usually on a lymph node.  I have had a few tested that looked very suspicious but have always been negative. Hope that that is the results that you get.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 23, 2017)

Eventually titers will go up... then it most certainly ends up internal. When that happens yes it can kill the goat.

Even low titers can mean internal.
When lumps are external it doesn't mean the goat doesn't also have it internal. 
The general thought is when titers get very high even with no or few external lumps the goat has internal.
UC Davis did a study years ago and 3% of the animals tested that had titers 1:16 already had internal CL.


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## Baymule (Jun 23, 2017)

So if people can get this disease from goats, what does it do to people?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 23, 2017)

Baymule said:


> So if people can get this disease from goats, what does it do to people?



This is a case study of 10 people

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup...90K5rodJ4Q__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q


http://waddl.vetmed.wsu.edu/animal-disease-faq/caseous-lymphadenitis

This site should be saved for all sheep and goat people as it covers the main zoonotic ilnesses related to sheep/goats- I've posted this many times.
http://iiad.tamu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Meat-Goat-and-Sheep-Part-2-English.pdf

Yeah, google CL in humans - images- check out the pictures.


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## greybeard (Jun 23, 2017)

CL happens in cattle and equines as well, and it's considered extremely contagious in the cattle sector.


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## babsbag (Jun 24, 2017)

I knew that horses get it, I believe it is called Pigeon Fever and it is a slightly different strain. I didn't know that cattle could get it.


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## greybeard (Jun 24, 2017)

no matter what, I certainly wouldn't drink any un-pasturized milk from any animal that has it, and I would be very very careful handling any animal that has it. 
Zoonotic diseases are not to be trifled with lightly.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 24, 2017)

greybeard said:


> no matter what, I certainly wouldn't drink any un-pasturized milk from any animal that has it, and I would be very very careful handling any animal that has it.
> Zoonotic diseases are not to be trifled with lightly.



Couldn't agree more!


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## newbiekat (Jun 25, 2017)

greybeard said:


> CL happens in cattle and equines as well, and it's considered extremely contagious in the cattle sector.



Is it just less common in cattle? I don't see cattle people stressing about CL as much as goat people...?

Also, how long does it last in the soil? If this goat is positive, I'm assuming we probably will have to get rid of them all because they have all been exposed  And if so, will it ever be possible to get goats back on this land again? What about another livestock?


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## newbiekat (Jun 25, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I didn't know that you were dealing with this firsthand, sorry to hear that. You can also tell by the location as they are usually on a lymph node.  I have had a few tested that looked very suspicious but have always been negative. Hope that that is the results that you get.



That's the thing... Her lumps are behind her shoulder, not in front. The vet said the ones he has seen have been in front, like, on the chest sort of (which is where I've seen pics of the location of their lymph nodes)... But hers are behind... So I'm not sure... But when he was trying to aspirate it, it was super thick and he wasn't getting much out so he said that was highly suspicious...


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 25, 2017)

newbiekat said:


> That's the thing... Her lumps are behind her shoulder, not in front. The vet said the ones he has seen have been in front, like, on the chest sort of (which is where I've seen pics of the location of their lymph nodes)... But hers are behind... So I'm not sure... But when he was trying to aspirate it, it was super thick and he wasn't getting much out so he said that was highly suspicious...


Did you by any chance give a vaccine or any other injection in that area?


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## Green Acres Farm (Jun 25, 2017)

We have had 2 abscesses in our herd that looked suspicious- one ping-pong ball sized one under the ear of a goat (we think it is from a puncture wound from the welded wire fence he tore up :/) and another in the location of a vaccine. Both were drained and the contents sent off for testing which ended up not being CL. I hope the same is for you.


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## newbiekat (Jun 25, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Did you by any chance give a vaccine or any other injection in that area?



Yes, that's where we give our CDT shot, which I know does sometimes cause lumps. That's what we thought it was for a long time (2 years now), but now one of the smaller bumps is starting to lose it's hair, which is (from what I've read) one of the signs that the abscess is getting ready to burst, if it is in fact CL. That was the reason we decided now was the time to get it checked out (in case it were actually getting ready to burst). But like I said, In the past when we've seen those bumps, we have always associated it with the shots that we gave in that area. They were not the location of lymph nodes, which is why we never thought it to be CL.


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## newbiekat (Jun 25, 2017)

Green Acres Farm said:


> We have had 2 abscesses in our herd that looked suspicious- one ping-pong ball sized one under the ear of a goat (we think it is from a puncture wound from the welded wire fence he tore up :/) and another in the location of a vaccine. Both were drained and the contents sent off for testing which ended up not being CL. I hope the same is for you.



Would you happen to know what the contents of your abscesses looked like? Was it thick?


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## Green Acres Farm (Jun 25, 2017)

newbiekat said:


> Would you happen to know what the contents of your abscesses looked like? Was it thick?


The first was done by our vet and I didn't see it. The doe's we thought was probably from a vaccine and a lot smaller, so we did it. It was a thick substance, but was not nearly as big as some I've seen online. It was a lump about the size of a quarter.


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## babsbag (Jun 25, 2017)

I had a buck with a softball size lump and the pus was so thick the vet couldn't get any out at all. She had to lance the abscess and collect it that way. He came from a CL negative heard at 8 weeks old so I wasn't too worried but we had it tested anyways.  I wish I still had the picture of it, it was thick that it looked like worms coming out of it.   It was not CL

Have you ever had an abscess drain on your land that you know of? If she ends of positive I would get a blood test on everyone else and go from there. There is a vaccine for it. They will test positive after that but it should prevent the lumps and the spreading of the disease.


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## greybeard (Jun 25, 2017)

Life span of CL bacteria in the soil is generally thought to be several months as opposed to years like some organisms are, so I wouldn't be too concerned about reintroducing stock to an area after a short period of time.

It happens in cattle, but is relatively rare.
One of the reasons it is more prevalent in goats and equines, as opposed to cattle is that most people that run cattle have them on a lot more pasture/animal than people with horses and goats. Horses tend (especially in small hobby farm settings) to eat the forage right down to the ground, with their forage supplemented daily with hay and grain. They're more likely to ingest dirt as they eat any green shoot that pops up.  
There are separate vaccines available for both goats and sheep, but as I understand it, once an animal is vaccinated, the serulogic screening is no longer valid--vaccinated herds will test positive.

(I see I repeated some of what Babsbag already said)


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## Southern by choice (Jun 25, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Life span of CL bacteria in the soil is generally thought to be several months as opposed to years like some organisms are, so I wouldn't be too concerned about reintroducing stock to an area after a short period of time.



The incubation period can take up to 3 months. As far as soil contamination it can live up to 8 months however there is a reason the "years" idea came about... mostly because many animals have internal so it is perpetual infecting over long periods of time. 
There are some vets that believe if you have goats it is inevitable- at some point you will get CL.  
There are some people that have culled hard based on lumps, isolated animals to prevent spread,  and some even moved to new land only to have CL show up in the herd yet again.

Yearly testing doesn't solve the issue but at least starting with clean stock or if you have CL and watch titers it can go along way in improving your herd and hopefully - eventually eradicating the disease over time from your goats.


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## newbiekat (Jul 17, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Have you ever had an abscess drain on your land that you know of? If she ends of positive I would get a blood test on everyone else and go from there. There is a vaccine for it. They will test positive after that but it should prevent the lumps and the spreading of the disease.



I have never had an abscess burst on our land, and prior to now my goats have blood tested negative for CL.  We have had lumps before, but we have always associated it with the vaccination spot. I have looked into the vaccine, and know that if I do vaccinate for it, they will test positive from then on out, but from what I have read on the vaccine it doesn't seem to be fully effective, about 60% success rate.

I was planning on getting them blood tested, but I need to wait for the incubation period (3 mos like SBC said) before I do that. They have always tested negative before now.



Southern by choice said:


> There are some vets that believe if you have goats it is inevitable- at some point you will get CL.
> There are some people that have culled hard based on lumps, isolated animals to prevent spread,  and some even moved to new land only to have CL show up in the herd yet again.



That's what I'm struggling with right now. The vet said the results came back "inconclusive". He said that because he aspirated the lump instead of culturing it, that's part of the reason why the results came back inconclusive??? I dunno, he didn't seem stressed about the CL because it's so prevalent, I'm guessing. Hubby was really ticked because if it was CL and it burst on our farm, they did NOTHING to prevent it. Fortunately, it hasn't burst and the vet basically said, well since its inconclusive and because of the location of the abscess I'd say it's safe to say its not CL. UHHHH WHAT??  So, basically we are waiting for the incubation period to pass, then we will do our usual CL blood testing and go from there. The part I struggle with, is, like you said SBC, it's almost inevitable that you WILL get it on your farm at some point, so what do I do if it is positive? I've read everything from just labeling your farm CL positive anytime you sell, to putting them down. But if we have dairy goats, and we milk them even if just for personal use, there's no point in keeping them because the milk is not safe to drink. So does that mean it's not wise to have goats at all for milking because they will eventually get CL at some point?? Or we will have to pasteurize the milk every time? We usually drink the milk raw... I mean, we have always had a negative herd, which is why I'm struggling right now because I'm stressing about if they do come back positive. I know there's no point in stressing before hand, but I kinda need a plan for if they do come back positive.


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## Baymule (Jul 17, 2017)

For your vet.....


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## babsbag (Jul 17, 2017)

If your goat has had an abscess I don't think you need to wait for an incubation period. Test now. 

I don't believe that CL is inevitable. Buy from clean herds, test new animals, be wary if you show. I have friends that have had clean herds for 20+ years, both dairy and Boer.  I have two does that test with titers of 1:16, they have tested that way for years (I haven't retested in the last 2 years...I need to do that). I have never seen a lump, all other goats test negative.  UC Davis says that titers of 1:8 to 1:128  can be seen in both infected and uninfected goats.   It is a complicated disease.


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## newbiekat (Jul 22, 2017)

We just have one that has an abscess. She's the one we took into the vet when he decided to aspirate it and said the results were inconclusive. 

I am waiting the 3 months because he did aspirate it, so technically it was "open" on my place I guess.

I am debating though, when we do test, if it does come back positive (because I'm already dreading the worst), what do I do with them? I know it's a highly debatable question, but do I put down all 8 of my girls? Do I sell them and label them CL + ? I just don't know what to do... I know I'm counting my eggs before they hatch, but I like to have a plan and honestly, if I need to get rid of them all I need to prepare myself emotionally...


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## babsbag (Jul 22, 2017)

Do a blood test on the one that had an abscess, if it comes back at 1:8 then you know you are all clear. If it comes back as anything other than that then test your other goats after 3 months.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 23, 2017)

@newbiekat how did things turn out?


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