# Goat Feed besides Purina Goat Chow



## ABHanna4d

I have 2 nigerian dwarfs and Ive been a goat owner for only a few months and have only fed the girls purina goat chow (and free choice brome). When I was at the feed store this evening I was told that instead of paying $15 for Purina, I could just get 
"*All Stock*" (http://www.tractorsupply.com/feed-solutions-all-stock-sweet-12-animal-feed-50-lb--2405890) or 
"*Sweet Feed*" (http://www.tractorsupply.com/producer-s-pride-reg-10-sweet-feed-50-lb--2525519) 
Both of these options are cheaper for a 50 lb bag, but I didnt know what the risks were in going away from Purina Goat chow...if there even is any?
This time I bought Purina, but wanted to do some research before I head to the feed store once this bag is out. 
The girls are only about 10 months old, we are planning on breeding them late fall for kids/milking next spring. I know once we start milking them alot of this may change, but I just want to do what is best for them and for their little bodies. 
I also have a free choice Goat Mineral Block...but they really dont seem to care for it too much


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## ksalvagno

I would stick to feed that is labeled for goats. All stock feed is broad spectrum and doesn't have the added minerals and vitamins specifically for goats. You may want to choose a loose mineral for them. Goats usually like that better. I use Sweetlix but Purina does also make a loose goat mineral.


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## lilhill

ABHanna4d said:
			
		

> I have 2 nigerian dwarfs and Ive been a goat owner for only a few months and have only fed the girls purina goat chow (and free choice brome). When I was at the feed store this evening I was told that instead of paying $15 for Purina, I could just get
> "*All Stock*" (http://www.tractorsupply.com/feed-solutions-all-stock-sweet-12-animal-feed-50-lb--2405890) or
> "*Sweet Feed*" (http://www.tractorsupply.com/producer-s-pride-reg-10-sweet-feed-50-lb--2525519)
> Both of these options are cheaper for a 50 lb bag, but I didnt know what the risks were in going away from Purina Goat chow...if there even is any?
> This time I bought Purina, but wanted to do some research before I head to the feed store once this bag is out.
> The girls are only about 10 months old, we are planning on breeding them late fall for kids/milking next spring. I know once we start milking them alot of this may change, but I just want to do what is best for them and for their little bodies.
> I also have a free choice Goat Mineral Block...but they really dont seem to care for it too much


  I think Purina Noble Goat feed is a bit cheaper.  It's pelleted, but I haven't used it so can't say what it contains.


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## Mea

ABHanna4d said:
			
		

> I also have a free choice Goat Mineral Block...but they really dont seem to care for it too much


Most goats seem to prefer Loose minerals to the blocks.  I believe that TS carries the loose.


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## ABHanna4d

Mea said:
			
		

> ABHanna4d said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have a free choice Goat Mineral Block...but they really dont seem to care for it too much
> 
> 
> 
> Most goats seem to prefer Loose minerals to the blocks.  I believe that TS carries the loose.
Click to expand...

I saw the loose minerals last night when I was at TS, but didn't really understand the difference...how much loose minerals should they get? Do I leave it free choice, or just add it to their feed everyonce in a while?


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## cmjust0

Don't listen to TSC employees*..  About 99.98% of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about -- _but they're always willing to talk!_

As for mineral, chances are they won't have anything labeled for goats..  If TSC is your best option, you're probably going to have to go with a mineral designed for cattle.  

Don't cheap out and buy "American Stockman Big 6 Trace Mineral Salt" or whatever it's called...it should be called USELESS.  Flip the bag over and look for sulfates and/or chelates..  If you see the words "copper oxide," put that bag down and find another one.  Copper oxide is one of the telltale marks of cheap mineral; it's cheap, it has near-zero bioavailability, yet it allows the mineral producer to claim there's copper in the product.  A real win/win for their pocketbooks, but a big loss for your livestock.

It's also the mark of cheap vitamins for humans, I'm finding, but that's a whole 'nuther subject.  

If you're keeping male goats, probably best to avoid anything labeled "Spring" or "Hi-Mag," as magnesium is one of the mineral components of urinary calculi..  It's not recommended that bucks and wethers get much supplemental magnesium.

When feeding mineral, set out small quantities free choice and keep it refreshed often.  If you leave a big bunch of it out for a long time, it *will* get soiled one way or another and they won't use it.  

The consumption target for mineral is usually 1/4 to 1/2 ounce per head, per day..  That should help you to figure out how much to set out per day to keep it fresh..  Two or maybe three days worth of mineral is the most I'd set out at any given time.



* If you happen to be in Indiana at a TSC and the lady's name is Kim...Kim Roll...a la Rollfarms...it's prolly best to listen.


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## ksalvagno

I know at the TSC's around me, they do carry a loose goat mineral now. I would see if your TSC has the loose goat mineral. You want the one that says goat on the label.


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## Roll farms

The all stock and sweet feed are 12% and 10% protein....goats, especially growing / gestating / lactating goats, NEED 16% feed.

So...you may buy a cheaper feed and save $, but you'd have to end up feeding MORE of it to give them what they need...so is it really a cost-savings if you're feeding 1.5 x as much?

Also, the copper levels in anything meant to be possibly fed to sheep will be WAYYYYY too low for a goat.  

Noble goat is a good feed, again, MHO, and I feed all my kids / unbred yearlings nothing but that (and hay and mineral).  It has deccox in it to prevent Coccidia so I don't feed it to my adults / milkers ...because A) they usually build up enough immunity that they don't need deccox by that time, and B) I don't want to drink it in my milk....

Dumor goat feed *might* be ok...I don't know, I've never fed it (too expensive, again, mho) but it IS a 16% goat feed that's not medicated...

The TSC where I work carries a Manna-Pro-brand goat mineral, usually...It's a good mineral, IMHO, but the 8 or 10# bag it comes in doesn't go far at my farm, we have too many to feed.  For a small herd it should be ok.  (Better than a hard block, anyway...)

Until we started carrying purina, I usually sent the goat / chicken customers who were genuinely interested in what was best for their animals (instead of how to feed them the cheapest) to the local feed mill...the PP and Dumor brands TSC carries just aren't as thoroughly researched and tested as I think they should be.

I have faith in Purina so will recommend it...but I still get my chicken feed at the feed mill....and my shelled / cracked corn, too.

LOL at CM....


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## jodief100

I agree, Goats need 16% protien.  If you are looking for a cheeper alternative, you can add corn to the feed.  I usually feed about 1/4 corn with a good brand feed.  You can also look for cattle "creep feed"  some brands have enough protien.  

I would highly recomend loose mineral.  Goats often cannot get enough from the blocks to fill thier needs.  Offer free feed.  For a great loose mineral feeder relativly inexpensive, get 4" PVC pipe, about 3-4 feet long and a Y.  Attach the long pipe to the upright and seal off the bottom.  The goast eat from the angled Y.


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## cmjust0

jodief100 said:
			
		

> If you are looking for a cheeper alternative, you can add corn to the feed.  I usually feed about 1/4 corn with a good brand feed.


I couldn't disagree more..  

Corn is extremely high in phosphorus and very low in calcium..  It wouldn't take very much corn AT ALL to throw the correct 2:1 Ca ratio completely out of whack on a properly-balanced goat feed.


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## aggieterpkatie

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> jodief100 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are looking for a cheeper alternative, you can add corn to the feed.  I usually feed about 1/4 corn with a good brand feed.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't disagree more..
> 
> Corn is extremely high in phosphorus and very low in calcium..  It wouldn't take very much corn AT ALL to throw the correct 2:1 Ca ratio completely out of whack on a properly-balanced goat feed.
Click to expand...

Not only that but it's pretty low in protein, so to add it to feed to up the protein doesn't make sense.  

A lady came to the mill a few months ago when I was there, and she said, "I've been feeding my ewes whole corn but they're just not doing well on it and they're not making enough milk for their lambs this year. "      No wonder, lady!


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## ABHanna4d

Roll farms said:
			
		

> The all stock and sweet feed are 12% and 10% protein....goats, especially growing / gestating / lactating goats, NEED 16% feed.
> 
> Until we started carrying purina, I usually sent the goat / chicken customers who were genuinely interested in what was best for their animals (instead of how to feed them the cheapest) to the local feed mill...the PP and Dumor brands TSC carries just aren't as thoroughly researched and tested as I think they should be.
> 
> I have faith in Purina so will recommend it...but I still get my chicken feed at the feed mill....and my shelled / cracked corn, too.
> 
> LOL at CM....


What do you recommend at the local feed mill? I would prefer to give my girls the best blend of what I can give them, even if I have to blend it myself.

Also what do you feed your chickens? (do you blend it yourself?) Ive been using Dumor chicken feed (layer pellets) but the girls havent been eating it very much...they tend to go after the goat feed like crazy though if they can get near it (is that bad?). I try to keep all the animals seperate during feeding time, but usually the chickens head over to the goat barn as soon as they are done to try and pick up the leftovers from the goats.


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## chandasue

I get my organic feeds (one for chickens and one for dairy goats) from Buckwheat Growers Association of MN. It's probably too expensive to have them ship out of state but check with local mills. Most of them I've found will do custom blends and will help you get the right % of protein.


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## Roll farms

Every feed mill is different, what mine has may not be what yours has...

Any 'good' 16-18% GOAT ration (with copper, not a SHEEP AND GOAT feed) that your mill has should work....judge your goats condition if / when you _gradually _change feed over to something else...if they looked better on Purina, then that'll tell you what you need to know.

I give my does corn in winter (for heat)... but only about 15% of their entire ration...in summer they get ADM  36% Goat Power dairy goat concentrate mixed w/ a 12% sweet feed, and BOSS, so that it works out to around 18% feed.
Top dressed with loose mineral (ADM Goat Power mineral) and Kelp...and DE right now, since it's fly season.  (I'm experimenting to see if it will cut back the fly population like some folks swear...we shall see...)

The chicken feed I get from my mill is called 'magic egg mash', it's their personal chicken mix... and I KNOW they lay better with it than they will with dumor...my mill had a fire and was out for 2 weeks last year, so I had to use Dumor.  Egg production hit the toilet during that time.

I've been getting my chicken feed at this mill for 15 years...TSC only opened here 5 years ago.


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## ABHanna4d

WOW thank you all so much for your advice 
I have so much to learn and Im glad my little goats are so patient with me!


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## ABHanna4d

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Every feed mill is different, what mine has may not be what yours has...
> 
> Any 'good' 16-18% GOAT ration (with copper, not a SHEEP AND GOAT feed) that your mill has should work....judge your goats condition if / when you _gradually _change feed over to something else...if they looked better on Purina, then that'll tell you what you need to know.
> 
> I give my does corn in winter (for heat)... but only about 15% of their entire ration...in summer they get ADM  36% Goat Power dairy goat concentrate mixed w/ a 12% sweet feed, and BOSS, so that it works out to around 18% feed.
> Top dressed with loose mineral (ADM Goat Power mineral) and Kelp...and DE right now, since it's fly season.  (I'm experimenting to see if it will cut back the fly population like some folks swear...we shall see...)
> 
> The chicken feed I get from my mill is called 'magic egg mash', it's their personal chicken mix... and I KNOW they lay better with it than they will with dumor...my mill had a fire and was out for 2 weeks last year, so I had to use Dumor.  Egg production hit the toilet during that time.
> 
> I've been getting my chicken feed at this mill for 15 years...TSC only opened here 5 years ago.


What is DE? Do they eat it to help prevent the flies? 

I know it is "toxic" for goats to eat chicken feed, is it bad for the chickens to get into the goat feed?


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## cmjust0

ABHanna4d said:
			
		

> ]
> What is DE? Do they eat it to help prevent the flies?


DE = Diatomaceous Earth..  

Lots of folks claim it's one of those "good for what ails ya!" type miracle products that's both 100% safe and harmless, but works on internal and external parasites, as well as flies, wasps, ants, blah blah blah...  

Personally...while I think it probably works under some circumstances, I also believe its usefulness has been exaggerated by an absolute TON of pure, unadulterated hype..

Take that FWIW.



> I know it is "toxic" for goats to eat chicken feed, is it bad for the chickens to get into the goat feed?


While I'm confident that an accidental swipe of one anothers' grain here and there isn't going to hurt anybody, it's definitely best to keep each species out of all other species' feed.


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## Roll farms

I've never bought the "DE will cure what ails you" hype, either....
but a good friend I respect SWEARS her fly population last year was 10% what it was in previous years b/c of DE...So.....now, I'll be the 'control' group....the skeptic who's trying it...My goats, chickens, and dogs are all getting it in their feed, so we shall see.

Supposedly, if the fly lays it's eggs in the poop, the larvae will get cut up on the DE that's IN the poop, and not develop.

I'm fully expecting to find her luck with it was a fluke, the fly pop went down last year at her place due to global warming or something, 

And no, I wouldn't let the chickens eat goat feed often or as a habit.


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## nmred

Roll, how much DE do you add and how do you feed it?  Just sprinkled on their grain?  I've been reading in several different places lately about using DE and have been thinking of trying it, but don't know how much to use.  Will it cause damage if you use too much?  I, too, am a bit skeptical that it is the miracle many people claim...but, I have used it for several years now in my garden as an organic pesticide, and it does work for that, so who knows, it may really work to keep down the flies.


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## Roll farms

Ummm....'bout this much *holds up feed scoop* top dressed on a freezer full of feed.

From what I understand, it's 'safe' as a feed additive...If you get the feed grade....I've never read how much is 'needed' so I just sprinkle some as I add layers of feed to the freezer (50# bag of sweet feed, 1/3 of a bag of goat concentrate, 2 scoops of BOSS, then sprinkle in some DE, probiotic powder, and mineral, stir, and do it again and again, layer by layer, until the freezer is full.

My husband hasn't got the patience to wait for me to 'blend' their feed, he helps me haul it into the barn and then wanders off and does other things until I'm done "playing in it", as he calls it.

When I'm done, there's a light gray coating on the feed, just enough to let me know it's there, but not enough that if I wiggle the scoop there's some left in the bottom.
Same w/ the dog feed.  
Since the chicken feed I buy is a 'mash' it's a bit hard to see it, but I follow the same principle...bag of layer, 1/4 bag of scratch, BOSS, cracked corn, then DE, then start another layer.


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## jodief100

Protein content in corn raised today is much higher than in the past.  

The person who suggested it to me was Dr. Frank Pinkerton, retired from Langston University.  Maybe he is wrong but with 50+ years experience raising goats and a PhD in animal sciences I assumed he knew what he was talking about.


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## Chirpy

Most goat people here use Klassy Goat feed.  I don't know if that's available where you are ...or what the price would be there.  Since Nigi's tend to put on weight extra fast I'd keep their feed at a minimum at this point.  They don't actually need any extra feed right now - just a good quality hay or pasture/weeds.

About a month or so before they are due to kid you will want to start to slowly up their feed intake. If you haven't been giving them feed at all that's when you want to start to.  (I don't give my Nigi's feed through the year because they so easily put on weight.   It's a special treat once in a while for them until kidding season.)   Once they have kidded then you should be at the max amount for them.  If you do milk them you may also want to add BOSS (black oiled sunflower seeds) into their feed.  

Goats do not do well with solid mineral blocks... always use loose minerals if at all possible.  Leave them out in a dry place for 24/7 use.   You should also have baking soda available 24/7 if you don't already.   I mix DE in with the baking soda and sprinkle it on their bodies every couple of weeks.  I do believe it helps with 'bugs'.   Make sure you use FOOD GRADE only DE.   It has to say it's food grade on the bag or it's not.   The other can kill them.


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## ABHanna4d

Chirpy said:
			
		

> Most goat people here use Klassy Goat feed.  I don't know if that's available where you are ...or what the price would be there.  Since Nigi's tend to put on weight extra fast I'd keep their feed at a minimum at this point.  They don't actually need any extra feed right now - just a good quality hay or pasture/weeds.
> 
> About a month or so before they are due to kid you will want to start to slowly up their feed intake. If you haven't been giving them feed at all that's when you want to start to.  (I don't give my Nigi's feed through the year because they so easily put on weight.   It's a special treat once in a while for them until kidding season.)   Once they have kidded then you should be at the max amount for them.  If you do milk them you may also want to add BOSS (black oiled sunflower seeds) into their feed.
> 
> Goats do not do well with solid mineral blocks... always use loose minerals if at all possible.  Leave them out in a dry place for 24/7 use.   You should also have baking soda available 24/7 if you don't already.   I mix DE in with the baking soda and sprinkle it on their bodies every couple of weeks.  I do believe it helps with 'bugs'.   Make sure you use FOOD GRADE only DE.   It has to say it's food grade on the bag or it's not.   The other can kill them.


Thank you! Especially for the tip about food grade DE...I was just going to pick some up tomorrow and will be sure to check for food grade!!!


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## cmjust0

A lot of people put DE in feed as a dewormer, but DE only works against bugs by puncturing their exoskeletons and absorbing their body fluids..  It doesn't work in wet environments, nor against non-exoskeletal bugs.

The GI tract is wet, and intestinal worms don't have exoskeletons.

There are also numerous studies which have shown that DE is not an effective dewormer.

I know it's not the cheapest stuff ever, nor the easiest to find, and I always kinda cringe a bit when I hear of people going to the trouble and expense of buying it, only to put it in the animal's feed and have them poop it right out with no benefit at all.

Just sayin'.


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## churchx3

I have read Fiasco Farm alot and she feeds her animals a 16% Mare  and Foal food as she said it is normally better quality then goat food??? Thoughts / Comments please??


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## cmjust0

We feed a mare and foal blend to some of our lactating goats, simply because I've yet to find a good dairy goat blend anywhere I can actually get ahold of it..  The Ca ratio isn't correct on ours, but it's close, and everything else (short of too much vitamin A) is more or less OK.

I don't like feeding it....I just don't have much other choice, since pretty much every other on-label goat feed I've found around here is medicated..

I don't wanna drink deccox.  

Thinking of mixing in some alfalfa pellets to dilute the vitamin/mineral pack in the mare & foal, as well as add some calcium back to it to try to bring the ratio back in line..


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## goatlady81

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Ummm....'bout this much *holds up feed scoop* top dressed on a freezer full of feed.
> 
> From what I understand, it's 'safe' as a feed additive...If you get the feed grade....I've never read how much is 'needed' so I just sprinkle some as I add layers of feed to the freezer (50# bag of sweet feed, 1/3 of a bag of goat concentrate, 2 scoops of BOSS, then sprinkle in some DE, probiotic powder, and mineral, stir, and do it again and again, layer by layer, until the freezer is full.
> 
> My husband hasn't got the patience to wait for me to 'blend' their feed, he helps me haul it into the barn and then wanders off and does other things until I'm done "playing in it", as he calls it.
> 
> When I'm done, there's a light gray coating on the feed, just enough to let me know it's there, but not enough that if I wiggle the scoop there's some left in the bottom.
> Same w/ the dog feed.
> Since the chicken feed I buy is a 'mash' it's a bit hard to see it, but I follow the same principle...bag of layer, 1/4 bag of scratch, BOSS, cracked corn, then DE, then start another layer.


So when your making the feed mixture do you put them in containers? What do you use to hold the feed mixture in?


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## PattySh

I am feeding Poulin Challenger Horse Feed. My goats look great. Goat grain here is limited and generally medicated.


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## cmjust0

We actually have one doe that's doing this same thing to us right now..  She's just kinda like...meh...when it comes to her grain, despite the fact that she's nursing triplets and should be hitting peak lactation right about NOW.  We're lucky to get 2lbs of grain in her a day, despite the fact that she's offered the opportunity to eat probably 4lbs..  We've tried a few different types, actually, but she just doesn't really want it.  I wouldn't doubt she's making 10lbs of milk a day right now, though..

She looks like hell, in my opinion -- about a BCS 2.5 at the most, I'd say -- and her kids' combined weight is well upward of 80lbs right now...no doubt in my mind about that.  She's nursing a buckling who _has to be_ close to 40# by himself, and he's got a big-framed sister who's packing it on quickly, too..  Then there's the other sister who's growing more or less normally, yet who looks a little runty beside her sibs..  She's probably in the mid 20's at 2mo, after having been born at 5.5lbs and having to fight two hosscat sibs for a teat..

Anyway, here's the thing...if you'd told me ahead of time that she was going to be picky about grain after kidding triplets with pretty outstanding growth rates, I'd have said...."Well then, she's probably gonna waste away and die."

And for a while there, that's exactly what I thought was going to happen.

Yet...despite everything I've been taught to believe would happen, she's not really continuing to decline.  She's more or less leveled off at about a BCS2.5, seems pretty happy, healthy, and quite feisty, and is raising three nice babies.

Ultimately, I figure she probably knows what she needs and if she starts really "feeling it"...she'll eat.


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## aggieterpkatie

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> A lot of people put DE in feed as a dewormer, but DE only works against bugs by puncturing their exoskeletons and absorbing their body fluids..  It doesn't work in wet environments, nor against non-exoskeletal bugs.
> 
> The GI tract is wet, and intestinal worms don't have exoskeletons.
> 
> There are also numerous studies which have shown that DE is not an effective dewormer.
> 
> I know it's not the cheapest stuff ever, nor the easiest to find, and I always kinda cringe a bit when I hear of people going to the trouble and expense of buying it, only to put it in the animal's feed and have them poop it right out with no benefit at all.
> 
> Just sayin'.


My coworker has an organic veggie farm, so she tries to keep all her animals organic if possible.  She feeds DE to all her animals, and she recently did a little experiment to see if wet DE would kill bugs.  She put DE in a jar with some water to make it soupy, then she put in some maggots.  They died.  It worked.  Just sayin.


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## aggieterpkatie

And here's an article  with more info on DE.  

Some quotes:  



> Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
> of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
> to Zoo Animals
> 
> Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan
> 
> A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation.  John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York.  John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes.  The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior.  *Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture. *





> Flies: Thoroughly dust areas where flies frequent (walls, straw bedding, livestock pens). It also can be applied to livestock coat as an insect repellent/contact insecticide.
> Fly Larva: Keeps fly larvae from developing in manure, which makes a significant reduction in the fly population





> To insects DE is a lethal dust with microscopic razor sharp edges. These sharp edges cut through the insect's protective covering drying it out and killing them when they are either dusted with DE or *if it applied as a wettable powder spray*. If they ingest the DE it will shred their insides.
> 
> Comes with complete instructions for use on insects, flea and lice control, bed bugs, grain storage, *parasite control in animals (use in feed) and fly control. *


I got some DE and I'm going to do a little experiment with my goat. I'm going to do a fecal before I feed it, then one a few weeks after I start feeding it.  I'm curious to know what the results are.


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## mamaluv321




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## cmjust0

> My coworker has an organic veggie farm, so she tries to keep all her animals organic if possible.  She feeds DE to all her animals, and she recently did a little experiment to see if wet DE would kill bugs.  She put DE in a jar with some water to make it soupy, then she put in some maggots.  They died.  It worked.  Just sayin.


It worked because maggots died in a soupy mix of inorganic flour and water?  Did she also provide the maggots with food, by any chance?  Did they drown?  

Did she poke holes in the lid?    (sorry  )

Most importantly, how exactly would this pertain to internal parasites, considering they're not much like maggots?



			
				aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> And here's an article  with more info on DE.


Correction:  That's an _advertisement_ with info on DE.  Big difference between ads and articles.



> Some quotes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
> of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
> to Zoo Animals
> 
> Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan
> 
> A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation.  John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York.  John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes.  The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior.  *Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture. *
Click to expand...

Interesting how this has morphed into "Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
to Zoo Animals," lending it the appearance of actually being a scientific study..  

The reality is that it's the product of a single letter written from one guy to another in 1966.

Wanna read it? 

What's even funnier is that that if you plug some of those keywords in, google returns hundreds upon hundreds of hits to companies hawking DE who are all hanging their hats on little more than a single, 44-year-old correspondance between one company and another, despite the fact that it lacks any semblance of context whatsoever.

Like this one, which I found elsewhere:



> Richard Smith, an animal food specialist from Grand Rapids, MI, conducted an experiment by feeding Codex Food-grade diatomaceous earth to zoo animals in Grand Rapids; MI, Chicago, IL; and Buffalo, NY. The zoos in MI and NY reported their black bears on the special feed showed better coats and clearer eyes while the primates at the zoo in IL has improvements in both appearance and behavior. Fecal exams taken prior to using the diatomaceous earth showed parasites present; there was an absence of any internal parasites following the experiment.


Funny how Richard Smith becomes an "animal food specialist" simply because he works at a place called "animal food specialties", and how "fossil flour" becomes "codex food-grade diatomaceous earth"...and how HE was the one conducting the experiment, regardless of the fact that he was simply sending some anecdotal results back to the guys at Perma-Guard....

See how this stuff works?  The BS gets pretty deep after nearly 50 years........

Also of note is the fact that the company to whom the letter was being sent -- Perma-Guard -- still produces "food grade" DE to be used as an *anti-caking agent* in feed..  Interestingly enough, they also produce insecticidal DE...with added insecticidal chemicals!!  

Soooo, which one went in the "biscuits" made in 1966?  Hmmmmmmmmmm...  Were they trying something new?  

And if this is proof positive, why -- of all the people to be hawking DE -- doesn't Perma-Guard have this up on _their own website?_  Do they know something about the circumstances that we don't?  

The reality is that perma guard has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA on their website about DE's effectiveness as an anthelmintic.  Nothing at all.  Why is that?  Again, hmmmmmm...

Anyway, the total lack of context combined with a misleading revision to add an official-sounding title and exclusion of the date and voila -- proof positive that DE works!

Uhhhh...not really.  :/

The rest of what you quoted is literally just an advertisement for what you can supposedly do with DE.

Bottom line, there have been studies done -- like, _real_ studies -- which show DE to be ineffective as an anthelmintic.  Some other studies have been more or less inconclusive, so far as I can tell.

I've yet to see ONE study that lends any credence whatsoever to the idea that it's _a really good dewormer_ as some folks claim it to be, let's put it that way.

Here's a good read , I thought.  It was written by Ann Wells, DVM of 
Springpond Holistic Animal Health and exists on the http servers of the Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont...I doubt they're a rabid anti-DE bunch like I'm sure many of y'all reckon I must be.  

Anyway...



			
				snippet said:
			
		

> Most alternative dewormers have not been shown by scientific research to have any effect on numbers of worms. Diatomaceous earth (DE) has been promoted by some for controlling internal and external parasites in livestock. Almost pure silica, DE is the finely ground fossilized remains of diatoms, tiny sea organisms that accumulate on the sea floor and can be mined from deposits. The diatom remains have microscopic cutting edges that are said to pierce the outer protective layer of parasitic worms and insects,
> causing dehydration and death. There is little scientific data on the effectiveness of DE for internal parasites, but researchers have seen a decrease in flies on animals when using DE. One study at Iowa State showed no benefit from using the DE. I have talked to Dan Morrical, Sheep Extension Specialist at Iowa State, who worked on the study. He told me that they had a hard time even getting the lambs infested with worms, which was necessary to test to the effectiveness of DE. I bring up this point to make
> you aware that farmers must know if their animals even have worms in order to know whether control measures are needed, are effective, or how to effectively change them.
> 
> Many producers have claimed that they have had good results with DE, but their management is usually very good. They may be giving credit to the DE when they should be giving it to themselves. Although I have nothing to back me up, I've often wondered if it isn't the minerals in the DE that provide the benefit. Worm egg count also naturally falls at the end of summer and the beginning of fall. People who are doing fecal egg counts (FEC) may be thinking the DE is lowering the egg counts, instead of realizing that it is the natural cycle. I haven't talked to any producer who uses DE without significantly changing and then watching their management.
> 
> Using DE is not just a simple substitute for a chemical dewormer. This is another problem with the scientific research that has been done on DE. Researchers have simply substituted DE for their
> conventional wormer and done everything else exactly the same. This is component research, whereas to really prove that DE has an effect, systems research needs to be done, using the same or similar management techniques that producers use. This type of research is much more difficult to do. If you still want to use DE, one dosage that I've seen used is ten to twenty pounds per ton of mineral supplement. Every animal must be fed a dose every day to be effective.


So, there ya go..  Do with that what you will.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> My coworker has an organic veggie farm, so she tries to keep all her animals organic if possible.  She feeds DE to all her animals, and she recently did a little experiment to see if wet DE would kill bugs.  She put DE in a jar with some water to make it soupy, then she put in some maggots.  They died.  It worked.  Just sayin.
> 
> 
> 
> It worked because maggots died in a soupy mix of inorganic flour and water?  Did she also provide the maggots with food, by any chance?  Did they drown?
> 
> Did she poke holes in the lid?    (sorry  )
> 
> Most importantly, how exactly would this pertain to internal parasites, considering they're not much like maggots?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's an article  with more info on DE.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correction:  That's an _advertisement_ with info on DE.  Big difference between ads and articles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Some quotes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding
> of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
> to Zoo Animals
> 
> Richard Smith, Hallwood Inc., Animal Food Specialties, Grand Rapids, Michigan
> 
> A mixture of feed incorporating 2% diatomaceous earth was sent to three zoos for evaluation.  John Ball Park of Grand Rapids, Michigan; Brookfield Zoos of Chicago Illinois; and Buffalo Zoo of Buffalo, New York.  John Ball and Buffalo Zoos reported that their black bears on the special feed showed a better coat and clearer eyes.  The primates fed at the Brookfield Zoo displayed a pronounced improvement in both appearance and behavior.  *Stool samples taken at all three zoos showed an absence of any internal parasites - adult or egg. Parasites in these animals were present prior to using the diatomaceous earth food mixture. *
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting how this has morphed into "Diatomaceous Earth - Experimental Feeding of Codex Food-grade Diatomaceous Earth
> to Zoo Animals," lending it the appearance of actually being a scientific study..
> 
> The reality is that it's the product of a single letter written from one guy to another in 1966.
> 
> Wanna read it?
> 
> What's even funnier is that that if you plug some of those keywords in, google returns hundreds upon hundreds of hits to companies hawking DE who are all hanging their hats on little more than a single, 44-year-old correspondance between one company and another, despite the fact that it lacks any semblance of context whatsoever.
> 
> Like this one, which I found elsewhere:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Smith, an animal food specialist from Grand Rapids, MI, conducted an experiment by feeding Codex Food-grade diatomaceous earth to zoo animals in Grand Rapids; MI, Chicago, IL; and Buffalo, NY. The zoos in MI and NY reported their black bears on the special feed showed better coats and clearer eyes while the primates at the zoo in IL has improvements in both appearance and behavior. Fecal exams taken prior to using the diatomaceous earth showed parasites present; there was an absence of any internal parasites following the experiment.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Funny how Richard Smith becomes an "animal food specialist" simply because he works at a place called "animal food specialties", and how "fossil flour" becomes "codex food-grade diatomaceous earth"...and how HE was the one conducting the experiment, regardless of the fact that he was simply sending some anecdotal results back to the guys at Perma-Guard....
> 
> See how this stuff works?  The BS gets pretty deep after nearly 50 years........
> 
> Also of note is the fact that the company to whom the letter was being sent -- Perma-Guard -- still produces "food grade" DE to be used as an *anti-caking agent* in feed..  Interestingly enough, they also produce insecticidal DE...with added insecticidal chemicals!!
> 
> Soooo, which one went in the "biscuits" made in 1966?  Hmmmmmmmmmm...  Were they trying something new?
> 
> And if this is proof positive, why -- of all the people to be hawking DE -- doesn't Perma-Guard have this up on _their own website?_  Do they know something about the circumstances that we don't?
> 
> The reality is that perma guard has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA on their website about DE's effectiveness as an anthelmintic.  Nothing at all.  Why is that?  Again, hmmmmmm...
> 
> Anyway, the total lack of context combined with a misleading revision to add an official-sounding title and exclusion of the date and voila -- proof positive that DE works!
> 
> Uhhhh...not really.  :/
> 
> The rest of what you quoted is literally just an advertisement for what you can supposedly do with DE.
> 
> Bottom line, there have been studies done -- like, _real_ studies -- which show DE to be ineffective as an anthelmintic.  Some other studies have been more or less inconclusive, so far as I can tell.
> 
> I've yet to see ONE study that lends any credence whatsoever to the idea that it's _a really good dewormer_ as some folks claim it to be, let's put it that way.
> 
> Here's a good read , I thought.  It was written by Ann Wells, DVM of
> Springpond Holistic Animal Health and exists on the http servers of the Northeast Organic Farming Association of Vermont...I doubt they're a rabid anti-DE bunch like I'm sure many of y'all reckon I must be.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> snippet said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most alternative dewormers have not been shown by scientific research to have any effect on numbers of worms. Diatomaceous earth (DE) has been promoted by some for controlling internal and external parasites in livestock. Almost pure silica, DE is the finely ground fossilized remains of diatoms, tiny sea organisms that accumulate on the sea floor and can be mined from deposits. The diatom remains have microscopic cutting edges that are said to pierce the outer protective layer of parasitic worms and insects,
> causing dehydration and death. There is little scientific data on the effectiveness of DE for internal parasites, but researchers have seen a decrease in flies on animals when using DE. One study at Iowa State showed no benefit from using the DE. I have talked to Dan Morrical, Sheep Extension Specialist at Iowa State, who worked on the study. He told me that they had a hard time even getting the lambs infested with worms, which was necessary to test to the effectiveness of DE. I bring up this point to make
> you aware that farmers must know if their animals even have worms in order to know whether control measures are needed, are effective, or how to effectively change them.
> 
> Many producers have claimed that they have had good results with DE, but their management is usually very good. They may be giving credit to the DE when they should be giving it to themselves. Although I have nothing to back me up, I've often wondered if it isn't the minerals in the DE that provide the benefit. Worm egg count also naturally falls at the end of summer and the beginning of fall. People who are doing fecal egg counts (FEC) may be thinking the DE is lowering the egg counts, instead of realizing that it is the natural cycle. I haven't talked to any producer who uses DE without significantly changing and then watching their management.
> 
> Using DE is not just a simple substitute for a chemical dewormer. This is another problem with the scientific research that has been done on DE. Researchers have simply substituted DE for their
> conventional wormer and done everything else exactly the same. This is component research, whereas to really prove that DE has an effect, systems research needs to be done, using the same or similar management techniques that producers use. This type of research is much more difficult to do. If you still want to use DE, one dosage that I've seen used is ten to twenty pounds per ton of mineral supplement. Every animal must be fed a dose every day to be effective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, there ya go..  Do with that what you will.
Click to expand...

That's all well and good.  We know you hate anything "alternative" when coming to goats. 

I just think it's interesting you have such strong opinions on it when you've never personally tried it.  

And I also find it hard to believe that SO many people use it with good results. Obviously they think it works.  Perhaps it depends on the area, the type of parasite, etc.  You know, like how some conventional dewormers don't work?


----------



## cmjust0

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> That's all well and good.  We know you hate anything "alternative" when coming to goats.


Yep...when they don't work.  



> I just think it's interesting you have such strong opinions on it when you've never personally tried it.


I've used DE before, as it was intended to be used...for bugs.  Dusted all my sweetcorn with it one year, trying to stem the tide of Japanese beetles eating all my silks.

Didn't work worth a damn.

 

I figure if it didn't work very well on things it's widely accepted to work well on, I'd probably better investigate "extra-label" use pretty carefully before I began relying on it to cure anything else.

In doing that, I found plenty of research that confirmed my suspicions...that it doesn't work for internal parasites.




> And I also find it hard to believe that SO many people use it with good results. Obviously they think it works.  Perhaps it depends on the area, the type of parasite, etc.  You know, like how some conventional dewormers don't work?


FWIW, I find it hard to believe also.

In fact, I _don't_ believe it.


----------



## freemotion

Ummm.....I'm with CM on this one...   Although I am curious about the results of aggie's fecals.

My first fecals showed mid-range but acceptable worm load.  I ran them again a month or so later before using an herbal dewormer (Molly's Herbals), expecting higher worm loads.  I found almost none, much to my astonishment.  The only thing I could figure was that the black walnut leaves were coming off the trees in the fall and I was also feeding lots of pumpkins with the seeds, both are in many herbal deworming formulas.  Well, walnut husks, not leaves, but they do smell the same to me.  Something they were eating was working.


----------



## cmjust0

freemotion said:
			
		

> Ummm.....I'm with CM on this one...   Although I am curious about the results of aggie's fecals.








> My first fecals showed mid-range but acceptable worm load.  I ran them again a month or so later before using an herbal dewormer (Molly's Herbals), expecting higher worm loads.  I found almost none, much to my astonishment.  The only thing I could figure was that the black walnut leaves were coming off the trees in the fall and I was also feeding lots of pumpkins with the seeds, both are in many herbal deworming formulas.  Well, walnut husks, not leaves, but they do smell the same to me.  Something they were eating was working.


You sure about that?  



			
				from snippet I quoted above said:
			
		

> *Worm egg count also naturally falls at the end of summer and the beginning of fall.* People who are doing fecal egg counts (FEC) may be thinking the DE is lowering the egg counts, instead of realizing that it is the natural cycle.


Last I checked, that's right about when black walnuts start losing their leaves and the pumpkins start coming in.


----------



## freemotion

Shoot, I thought I was onto something good.....


----------



## babsbag

Our TSC sells Purina goat chow and 3 different Noble Goat feeds. One is called Dairy Parlor and has a white tag. It is not medicated  

The only way to tell the 3 Noble Goat feeds apart is on the paper tag that is attached to the end of the bag. Other than that they look the same. I believe the tag colors are white, yellow, and pink. Just remember white is for milk.

I mix my own feed and use a cement mixer to mix it in. DH does it for me and it works great. I mix the dairy parlor, wet COB, afalfa pellets, sugar beet pulp, and whole wheat if they have it. I also buy a grain mix from the feed mill that I give to the ladies on the milk stand.

And, my goats HATE lose minerals. They refuse to eat them. I use the purnia goat block from TSC and they love it. TSC also has a rather pricey goat protein pale that my goats really like. But the lose mineral is a no go.


----------



## cmjust0

freemotion said:
			
		

> Shoot, I thought I was onto something good.....


Not saying you weren't, necessarily...just saying there are sometimes other factors in play that can mess with trials and tests and so forth.  

I, too, have heard about pumpkin seeds being a natural dewormer...  I've looked for information on it, and there *actually is* some kind of naturally occuring substance in there that's supposed to work as an anthelmintic..

Lots of folks throw fresh pumpkins to their goats every fall and swear their goats look better and their eyelids pink up and stuff like that...but still, I can't help but wonder if what they're actually seeing is a late-season drop in FEC (and an accompanying drop in consumption of the goat's resources by the worms) due to the fact that the worms don't wanna spit eggs out when the larva's only gonna get frost-killed anyway...everything has its own little survival mechanisms, afterall..

I really don't know the answers....I'm just throwin' stuff out there for consideration..


----------



## Hollywood Goats

I feed mine stock and stable sweet feed, and plenty of hay! they love it and it is for goats, cows, sheep, and horses, the chickens like to pick at it too! it costs $6.95 for 50 lbs at my feed store.


----------



## ()relics

Yeah I am going to stay out of this one...Just Because...I do use DE to dust my chickens and as a free choice mineral supplement but have no proof of any sort of results...I will go with the "can't hurt" line of reasoning here...I don't like using bagged minerals formulated for anything but goats....I feed pelleted feed nearly all year,medicated with decox or rumensin, to 1 group of animals or another...I don't like Purina products or generically packaged sweet feed....Enough said



			
				cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Don't listen to TSC employees*..  About 99.98% of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about.......
> 
> 
> 
> * If you happen to be in Indiana at a TSC and the lady's name is Kim...Kim Roll...a la Rollfarms...it's prolly best to listen.


I must say you sidestepped a real firestorm there....


----------



## cmjust0

()relics said:
			
		

> Yeah I am going to stay out of this one...Just Because...I do use DE to dust my chickens and as a free choice mineral supplement but have no proof of any sort of results...I will go with the "can't hurt" line of reasoning here...


DE as a dustbath for chickens...perfect usage!  I would never, ever tell someone not to do that because it's pretty much what DE is proven to be good for.

As for the "can't hurt" component...the price tag of "food grade" DE hurts my eyeballs just to look at!  I don't even pay that much for a bag of really good mineral and I _know_ it does some good!

Other than that, though...yeah, I don't figure it hurts anything.





> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't listen to TSC employees*..  About 99.98% of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about.......
> 
> * If you happen to be in Indiana at a TSC and the lady's name is Kim...Kim Roll...a la Rollfarms...it's prolly best to listen.
> 
> 
> 
> I must say you sidestepped a real firestorm there....
Click to expand...

I know, right?


----------



## cmjust0

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> I feed mine stock and stable sweet feed, and plenty of hay! they love it and it is for goats, cows, sheep, and horses, the chickens like to pick at it too! it costs $6.95 for 50 lbs at my feed store.


If it's for goats and sheep, it's inadequate for goats...probably inadequate for cattle and horses, too.

Copper is the issue..  I'd always heard and noted for myself that "all-stock" types of feeds contained *no* copper so as to make them acceptable for sheep, so my advice was look at the tag and note the lack of copper and understand that goats absolutely require copper..

However..  :/

I've recently been informed (and have verified) that some "all-stock" type feeds actually do contain copper...but in amounts of 10ppm or less.  I'm not sure if that's a recent development on the part of manufacturers of "all-stock" feeds to befuddle the oft-given advice that "all-stock," sheep feed, and sheep & goat feed isn't appropriate for goats or what, but...well, there's copper in some of them now.

However, 10ppm is still WOEFULLY INADEQUATE for goats.  You should be looking more in the >25ppm (up to 50ppm, IMO) range.  

So...having said that...my new advice is as follows:  If it won't KILL a sheep, it's no good for goats. 

    

...but seriously.  If it won't kill a sheep, it's no good for goats.    I mean that..  My advice would be to get your goats on goat feed ASAP.


----------



## Hollywood Goats

I know that it does not have sufficient minerals, that is why I give them minerals in addition, I am sorry that I forgot to mention that.


----------



## Hykue

Thank you for all the feed information.  I think I might have a hard time finding the most appropriate feed here - the salt block that I checked in passing the other day was for "sheep and goats" and DID contain copper.  I was mightily confused.  I'll get it all figured out eventually, hopefully before I even get my new goats home.

On the DE thing, I read about how great it was in the garden, and I had a cutworm problem, and some places claimed that it was good for "soft-bodied" insects (like cutworms).  So I put it out around all my little plants in the corral (yes, I planted a garden in the corral.  The previous owners took the gate, and I didn't have any large livestock anyway . . . it's fantastically rich soil).  It didn't seem to work, so the next night when I went on cutworm-stomping duty, I brought out a tuna can with DE in the bottom.  I found a cutworm, I plunked it in the tuna can, I went inside and played video games.  I was going to stop when the cutworm died.  I played until very very late that night.  That cutworm must have traveled a mile around that tuna can, through DE the whole way, and it showed absolutely no sign of any ill effects.  It was in it for hours and hours.

Since then, I have heard mostly claims that it's good for hard-bodied insects, and I haven't tried the experiment with any beetles, so I can't speak to that.  I also don't know how similar cutworms are to internal parasites . . . cutworms are actually insect larvae and most internal parasites are true worms.  But if it's supposed to have a physical effect, I imagine it would be similar for those two kinds of critter.  I will have to give some to my chickies to dust bath in when they get a little bigger, because I have about 24 pounds of it left.  Can't hurt . . .  Incidentally, the chickens have a solution for my cutworm problem . . . it sounds like this "aaaaaaaw" (you know, the open mouth sound).

(Edited because I was so sleepy that I said parasitic worms were insects - and I'm a biologist!  How embarrassing - I must be very tired.)


----------

