# Questioning breeder ethics



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 2, 2018)

I made a rookie mistake of trusting the breeder will call BR more than I probably should have and ended up with a doe that has sore hocks. In my defense, I have not had a rabbit with this problem before, but I should have known to look more closely but they were small sores, about the size of the tip of my finger and the fur along side covered them pretty well. I did notice ear mites, a very mild case deep in the canal of one ear, and since I quarantine very well, I did accept the doe knowing that much. BR told me at the time that this was the _only _doe she had at that age because she must have missexxed the other one she had also advertised.

As to contacting BR afterward, I did the very next day, just to let her know in case the sore hocks was cause by bacteria and was contagious to her other rabbits. She did not respond. I was not upset or accusing, nor did I ask anything of her, even though I paid full price by her rates for the doe. I just informed her as gently as I could, as I would want someone to do the same if it were me, but I handle my rabbits more than most and I would not sell a rabbit with such a problem.

I also try to stay in contact with the people to whom I sell for at least a month after to see if everything is going okay and I ask them to contact me when they have their first kindle. I also try to stay in touch with breeders from whom I buy as well as, which is how all the rest of this surfaced.

Three weeks later one of my buyers also bought a doe *the same age as mine* from BR. She used to show rabbits, so not a newbie and always quarantines. It was rather dark and she missed that her doe had ear mites (and much worse than the one I got) but she noticed the doe was just slightly underweight. All is good for her now and the doe kindled a few days ago.

Then yesterday one other breeder, from whom I bought a related pair, was telling me of a doe that had sore hocks offered by BR that she rejected about a week before I bought mine in December, which is the one that I bought.

So, that is two incidents where I have some certainty that BR knew of health issues in her rabbits, but instead of curing or culling, she kept trying to sell them and all it took was a desperate few who are trusting enough...._well, live and learn_.

The thing is BR bought many of her rabbits from a highly reputable breeder, who decided to drop her rabbits and reduce her other herds a couple of years ago as it was getting to be too much with her age, and she referred me to BR last summer, but BR did not have what I wanted at the time and did not contact me back. So BR has some very good, maybe even show quality, stock, but I am concerned about buying from her or referring anyone to her. And yet, I try to stay friendly with the breeders in my area, because things happen and I might need to buy unrelated rabbits again.

I really want to believe the best of people _always _and I know things can just go bad temporarily with any kind of livestock. She many just be overwhelmed as I believe that she just had too many animals at that time for her homestead setting.

I do not know if I have a specific question, just wanted to hear others thoughts about all this.


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## BoboFarm (Feb 2, 2018)

Whether she was overwhelmed with too many animals or not, she should have been honest about the condition of the rabbits. 

As far as purchasing more rabbits from her, I would definitely be more thorough when you check them over. I would also add a buyer beware if you recommend BR to anyone.

I'm not sure I'd buy from her again. Maybe only as a last resort if you don't have any more options.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 2, 2018)

Are these animals Rex, by chance?

Sore hocks are very, _very_ common in the Rex breeds. Apparently, the shorter coat may not make for good, thick foot pads. People who breed Rex-coated rabbits often have "sitting boards" in the cages to give the rabbits' feet a break from the wire. At a show, the judges kind of expect to see bare patches, even on the Mini Rex; as long as there aren't open sores, it's not a DQ.

That said, since the breeder had been made aware that this rabbit had sore feet, she should at least have said so before she sold it. As to the ear mites - maybe she doesn't recognize a minor case, or maybe she thinks she has it under control, but doesn't, who knows? I once bought some rabbits that I knew had ear mites; I was doing both the breeder and the rabbits a favor by taking them.

Rabbit people are almost as gossipy as horse people, so word tends to get around about breeders who don't take good care of their stock. "Be careful when buying from this person" may be all that gets said, but we know . . . .


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 2, 2018)

@BoboFarm Thank you. That is pretty much where I am at.

@Bunnylady Not a Rex, but I thank you for the info on the breed. 

I am transitioning over to Silver Foxes only and replacing aging does after we had been doing NZW and SF purebreds and crosses (hence all the surprise colorings in my kindles especially of late with a new NZW buck that is going to a new start-up NZW meat breeder in about two to three weeks), so I am only buying Silver Fox purebreds presently.  

We have warming pads, which even when turned off give the rabbits a smooth surface off the wires. I tried giving her a nesting box filled with hay, which she seemed to like but she began using it as bathroom and I was concerned it would exacerbate the problem or even infect the sores, so I removed it and have some hay in her cage in places she does not go, but likes to lie. I am really disappointed because she feels lean in the hips and legs, probably because she is not moving naturally in order to avoid the pain. She seems to be under the weight she should be for her size, but not bony anywhere else. I was hoping to breed her at the end of the month but I am thinking I might not want to do that now.

Silver Fox breeders are few and far between in our area, so we do keep track of who is doing what more than others, I suppose. This is the only well-established breeder I have run across that has done stuff like this, but that creates another question about ethical practices for me as it is one thing to not refer people to her, but another to steer people away even if done "gently," it could get around too. The other breeder that has dealt with her more often does not refer people to her directly but acts as a broker by going to inspect and pick the rabbits herself and then delivers them to her clients. That was only done because she did not have does to sell herself at the time and BR does has good pedigreed stock.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 2, 2018)

Silver Fox are pretty thin everywhere; I'm not sure they have ever been what could be called a common breed. They used to show in Blue and Black. 

The ARBA has a requirement that a breed or color variety has to have a minimum number of animals (too lazy to look this up, but I believe it's 25) entered at Convention during the 5 years between updates of the Standard of Perfection. The Silver Fox lost Blue because the breeders couldn't manage to bring 25 showable Blues to Convention during a 5 year period. 

To get a color introduced/reinstated, the holder of the Certificate of Development has to bring a show quality Senior Buck, Senior Doe, Junior Buck, and Junior Doe to convention, where they are evaluated by a group of judges. The Juniors have to be the offspring of the Seniors, and the entire group has to pass inspection. If they can pass 3 times in 5 years, the variety becomes official. 

During the roughly 40 years since Blue was lost, and however many COD holders there have been during that time, nobody has managed to get 4 decent Blues to convention for the required 3 out of 5 years. I know unexpected things happen in people's lives, but I suspect a good part of this is because there just isn't that large a pool to draw from. I know there are currently COD's for Blue and Chocolate; hopefully this interest in adding colors reflects a renewed interest in the breed as a whole.


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## secuono (Feb 2, 2018)

Silver Fox are very common in Va. I got out of rabbits once I realized everyone and their cousins were suddenly breeding them. Tons of crap quality for dirt cheap sprung up everywhere!

I wonder what was wrong with the rabbit to get sore hocks....SF are so nice, furwise. Does this doe still have issues? 

Ear mites are hard to recognize for most. Many don't notice it until the rabbit droops an ear, heavy scabs up high on the ear are visible, head tilts and/or shakes it's head all the time. I could tell by feel for slight heat or reaction change to touch. 

I wouldn't buy from BR again.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 3, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> Silver Fox are pretty thin everywhere....



@Bunnylady  When I read this line, I thought you were referring to their fur at first.

I really did not know about the COD so I really do thank you educating me. I was told just this week that the sister of one of my bucks won Best of Opposite recently. 

I love the SF breed on many levels but partially because it is so uncommon and another part is it was developed very close to where I was born and lived as a child. I want to help preserve and improve the breed so I may show eventually. I think quality has been an issue within the breed. Lots of people use them in cross breeding and I read once that a SF cross won Best of Breed. However, I do think we are struggling with consistency with the body type, at least in my area I have seen more pinched hips than I would like and the bucks I have seen tend to be on the small side. Which is another reason this is such a dilemma for me: good stock, unethical breeder. But eventually I could have better stock....a girl can dream.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 3, 2018)

secuono said:


> I wonder what was wrong with the rabbit to get sore hocks....SF are so nice, furwise. Does this doe still have issues?



@secuono It is hard for me to imagine how a SF would develop sore hocks, too. I was not invited to see the rabbitry, so I have no idea what kind of wires she had or the cage conditions. The doe looked clean and healthy overall.

I am working with the sore hocks. One of my specialities is doctoring animals, even the neighbors' cats would come to me when they were hurt. But I have not had sore hocks before so....I am not sure how long it will take, but I believe they are improving. Otherwise the doe is really great, except she has become lean in the hips and legs, probably due to the sore hocks.

I get that ear mites are difficult to see for some people or on some animals, but the breeder knew that my doe had them because I showed her. If one of my rabbits had them I would be checking/treating  them all and I would point it out to a buyer if the rabbit had been treated recently even if it looked clear at the time. I just try to do business with everyone as I would prefer to be treated, but I sometimes forget that is not how other people go about things. 

Thank you.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 3, 2018)

secuono said:


> Silver Fox are very common in Va. I got out of rabbits once I realized everyone and their cousins were suddenly breeding them. Tons of crap quality for dirt cheap sprung up everywhere!



Maybe what I should have said is, "_good_ Silver Fox are thin . . . !" The Livestock Conservancy is listing them as "threatened," and a lot of folks will jump onto the rare breed bandwagon without a clue about what they are doing. Barely recognizable animals get sold as breeders because "it's a rare breed!" 



Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> a SF cross won Best of Breed.



This is something I keep telling people - a pedigree is not required to put an animal on the show table, and as long as it looks enough like the breed it is entered as, it gets its chance (you do need a complete pedigree for registration, though, and a rabbit must be registered to become a Grand Champion). People do out-crosses all the time. Since the longish, standing coat and the silvering that are typical of a SF would be problematic for another breed, I'm assuming this particular crossbred animal was entered as a SF, and whatever breed it was crossed with only improved the type without degrading the other features.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 3, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> Maybe what I should have said is, "_good_ Silver Fox are thin . . . !" The Livestock Conservancy is listing them as "threatened," and a lot of folks will jump onto the rare breed bandwagon without a clue about what they are doing. Barely recognizable animals get sold as breeders because "it's a rare breed!"



And that just changed one or two years ago from being "critical." I get your point, but because SF was on the critical list previously, people got interested in saving the breed. Most of the dedicated SF breeders I know are not showing, yet they are still working towards show quality.



Bunnylady said:


> Since the longish, standing coat and the silvering that are typical of a SF would be problematic for another breed, I'm assuming this particular crossbred animal was entered as a SF, and whatever breed it was crossed with only improved the type without degrading the other features.



It was entered as a Silver Fox, sorry for not making that clearer. I would have liked to know what that breed used to cross was.


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## Run Rabbit Run (Feb 4, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> @BoboFarm Thank you. That is pretty much where I am at.
> 
> @Bunnylady Not a Rex, but I thank you for the info on the breed.
> 
> ...




Hi There, I am new to this group, but I raise SF. The nationals show will be at Greensboro NC 3/17/18 this year. check with the NSFRC website, there will be lots of breeders with nice rabbits available.   https://www.facebook.com/events/1290735887682356/


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## Bunnylady (Feb 4, 2018)

I checked the NSFRC website, and couldn't find any mention of the Greensboro show.The ARBA listing for the show didn't have a Silver Fox specialty mentioned, either, though from the specialties that _are_ listed, it looks like some other clubs might be having their nationals at that show as well. I know, people who do the websites have other things to do, too, so sometimes the ball gets dropped and "word of mouth" between breeders can still be the best way to find out about these things. 

I haven't been to a show in G'boro in a few years, but unless things have changed radically, it should be a well-run show and a pleasure to attend.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 4, 2018)

@Run Rabbit Run Welcome!  I am pretty knew here too.

I was hoping to carpool but contact just unpooled. I suppose I do need to make solid plans one way or the other this week. Are you going?


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## Run Rabbit Run (Feb 4, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> I checked the NSFRC website, and couldn't find any mention of the Greensboro show.The ARBA listing for the show didn't have a Silver Fox specialty mentioned, either, though from the specialties that _are_ listed, it looks like some other clubs might be having their nationals at that show as well. I know, people who do the websites have other things to do, too, so sometimes the ball gets dropped and "word of mouth" between breeders can still be the best way to find out about these things.
> 
> I haven't been to a show in G'boro in a few years, but unless things have changed radically, it should be a well-run show and a pleasure to attend.



Had to do a little searching myself! Sorry about that....   https://www.facebook.com/events/1290735887682356/ 
above is the link to the info.


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## Run Rabbit Run (Feb 4, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> @Run Rabbit Run Welcome!  I am pretty knew here too.
> 
> I was hoping to carpool but contact just unpooled. I suppose I do need to make solid plans one way or the other this week. Are you going?




I like the backyard chicken site and didn't realize there was a page for rabbits too!  I joined because I've been looking at my wood and field and thinking about a few goats!  Shhh, don't tell my husband!


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## promiseacres (Feb 4, 2018)

Couple of things when pointing out working with the less common breeds.
   Breeders are not going to sell a BOB unless they are selling out, they are working with the "culls" or "parts rabbit they have."  They may in fact feel as if they are doing you a "favor" by selling you what you've been searching for even if it's not perfect. There's a learning curve with any breed...sometimes years, a breeder whose had that breed longer is usually a better source as to their own critiques. That being said if you get a presented rabbit with health problems you don't have to buy it.  I would assume this breeder doesn't see sore hocks or earmites an issue and personally not purchase again. Unfortunately it is a buyer beware situation....
in my breed (velveteen lops ) there are 2 extremes in breeders. 1. sell any and all 2.  sell nothing. At this point I am in the middle I do sell some that I consider brood and sometimes it bites me with a bad review....why because the buyer is so thrilled to find x and even though I try to cover the bases things do turn up I swear they get stars in their eyes that later becomes my fault....  makes it hard to want to continue.... last summer I sold a trio to a new to the breed buyer. She lost both does after a month or so...she said bloat but it went on too long in my opinion to had been true bloat....  in any case she was interested in my other rabbits. And I sold her an experienced brood doe and another her brood doe for a discounted price due her problems. I also offered her free of charge her choice of 2 jr bucks. Both weren't great but definitely brood in my opinion. Since tgen the sr brood doe had a litter for her...and ate the babies....culled her (am still floored about this change as she was an excellent brood for me) culled the free buck because he didn't have a nice temperment....again that's up to her, he was hers. She has threatened to cull the last doe as she hasn't settled as a young doe nor is show quality....I told her up front she wasn't but was what I had available.... she does like the original buck.   Since we are on the same groups she likes to whine about how she had to cull 3/4th her herd already... has never called me out but    in any case she was buying like crazy last summer, not just from me.  IDK I don't plan on ever selling her a rabbit.again..just feel as something is off with the deaths then major behavior changes in these rabbits. And probably won't be selling as many this year...  I do take it personally, maybe I shouldn't. I had a hard time getting anyone to sell my first one and yes have bought some I didn't end up being what I thought I was getting. But I don't blame the seller... I knew I was getting a parts rabbit....  and there are breeders I wouldn't buy from again.  Rant over sorry for the long post...obviously you need to do what you think is best if the breeder isn't up to your standards or you feel they are dishonest you really need to move on.


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## promiseacres (Feb 4, 2018)

I guess my point is with a low numbers of breeders is don't make a name for yourself as a hard to please buyer.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 4, 2018)

promiseacres said:


> I guess my point is with a low numbers of breeders is don't make a name for yourself as a hard to please buyer.



I agree, as that is one of my concerns, but there is hard to please as a buyer and then there is a breeder/seller selling rabbits that at least one other breeder/buyer rejected because of health issues that she pointed out to the seller, so the seller knew...and yet the seller continued with selling the same rabbit to another buyer. So, in this case, I have one buyer that knew she was trying to sell a doe with sore hocks and I have a buyer that bought another doe with ear mites, after she told me she did not have the second one that age, and this was three weeks after I bought ours showing her the ear mites. These health issues were definitely KNOWN by the seller. I always get people the benefit of the doubt until it is absurd and I think it is there.

I think this is a completely different situation @promiseacres than yours and, in your case, I agree that I would probably not sell to that buyer again.

I am unfamiliar with the term "parts rabbit" but it sounds like it has certain qualities that are good or excellent, but at least one or more major flaws...?


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## promiseacres (Feb 4, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> I think this is a completely different situation @promiseacres than yours and, in your case, I agree that I would probably not sell to that buyer again.
> 
> I am unfamiliar with the term "parts rabbit" but it sounds like it has certain qualities that are good or excellent, but at least one or more major flaws...?


yes. As velveteen lops are in development  (though over 25 years) a parts rabbit has 1 or more DQS or Faults.  Weight has to be 5 to 6.5#, 15 " ears tip to tip, the mandolin type and rex coat. So most of my does meet everything but their weight is 7+#, I have nice young buck his ears are 14.75" but excellent type.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 4, 2018)

Sometimes, you may think you have explained something very clearly, and later find out that the person you were talking to really didn't hear you at all.

 I remember telling a new Holland Lop breeder about "peanuts;" how they were unavoidable if you bred two show quality Hollands together, and that inheriting two copies of the dwarfing gene meant that they could not survive. I thought she understood what I was saying, yet a few weeks later, I hear that she is tearfully, desperately trying to hand feed some that had been born in a litter her doe had just had. Somehow, she just hadn't grasped that "lethal gene" meant that they would die.

I think that anyone who is serious about a breed really needs to show, or at least have someone who shows to mentor them. While the ARBA's frequent updates of their standards are intended to make clear what is expected and accepted in a breed, sometimes people just don't understand the words. Also, words only get you so far; some things (like wool texture) are better felt to really be appreciated.

And then there is the matter of "hutch blindness." A breeder can be absolutely convinced that their animals are truly exceptional, when someone who has show experience wouldn't look at them twice. A judge's remarks can help pinpoint areas that need improving . . . assuming the judge actually knows what they are talking about (with nearly 50 breeds recognized by the ARBA, it shouldn't be surprising that a judge might not be familiar with some of the less popular ones).


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