# Calving in Below Freezing



## cjc (Dec 14, 2016)

For the first time we have a cow that is about to have a calf in winter. Usually we only see temps of around 0 Celsius / 30 Fahrenheit. This year we are seeing record lows, down to -10 Celsius / 14 Fahrenheit and quiet a bit of snow. 15 inches came down last week and we are expecting another 10 inches this weekend.

This cow is a shorthorn. I moved her to where I house our bottle calves yesterday, which is in open paddocks. They are covered only on the top but the sides are exposed to the air. Basically only the backs and the tops are blocking any wind, the sides are just 4 board fencing. I was planning on putting down a ton of straw and just locking her in at night. She always calves in the middle of the night and I worry if she is out in the field I may wake up to a frozen calf.

My question is am I over thinking this? Is this calf going to be fine whether it's born in the winter or the summer? Should I blanket this calf when its born? Is the paddock not enough? I have a horse barn we could always move her in there at night.


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## TAH (Dec 14, 2016)

There was a cow farmer in AK and he leaves 2-3 day old calves in the field in the winter. He has covered areas for them. I would assume if you have a covered area she should be fine. You may want to put up a heat lamp, so when the calf is wet of cold it could warm up some.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 14, 2016)

I'm not a cow person - but I would worry about any critter being born at 14 degrees.  I think the calf would be vulnerable to frostbite at the very least.  It would probably be fine after it's up, nursed and is dry....but I'd worry about it up until then.  And, who can resist a baby critter in a cute blankie! 

I'm sure some other folks will chime in and have a better answer than me.  Good luck!


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## greybeard (Dec 14, 2016)

The danger is the temp and the wind. Calf is born wet, with minimal hair. Hooves may not be real solid either. Frostbite is a real possibility on ears, hooves and tail. Wind chill just takes energy right out of a new born.
Get a tarp or something similar to make a wind break on the sides of your bottle calf structure. Have plenty of towels handy.
Be there when she has it, and get it dried off and up as soon as you can, and don't forget momma. She has to get up so it can nurse. She probably won't want to if is's bitter cold, but she has to.
Put plenty of hay down and keep momma and calf confined for a couple of days.
Heat lamps if you have electricity out there.
If the area is too small, the liklihood of momma stepping on calf increases.
If, the wind is down, it's dry, and it's sunny, then calf and momma will probably do fine on their own during cold weather, as long as it's not single digit or below. Lots of prairie northern beef producers calve in winter instead of fall to keep from feeding calves thru winter and spring for sale. 


Plan your breeding so calving takes place at a warmer time of year.


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## cjc (Dec 14, 2016)

greybeard said:


> The danger is the temp and the wind. Calf is born wet, with minimal hair. Hooves may not be real solid either. Frostbite is a real possibility on ears, hooves and tail. Wind chill just takes energy right out of a new born.
> Get a tarp or something similar to make a wind break on the sides of your bottle calf structure. Have plenty of towels handy.
> Be there when she has it, and get it dried off and up as soon as you can, and don't forget momma. She has to get up so it can nurse. She probably won't want to if is's bitter cold, but she has to.
> Put plenty of hay down and keep momma and calf confined for a couple of days.
> ...



Ok, I think what I will do is just move mama into the barn at night. I will put tarps up on the paddock sides just in case she does have the calf during the day and I will cover the bottom in straw. Our barn keeps a decent temperature but we have a big heater, when the calf is born ill turn it on for the first few days.

We always calf early spring but this girl took a long time to take, I think I put the bull in too early after her last calf, all our other calves were born months ago. This year I will give her more time before putting the bull in so she has a calf in spring.

I just bought this calf blanket. Cost me a $100 but hopefully will keep her calf warm when I move them out of the barn.


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## jhm47 (Dec 16, 2016)

I've calved hundreds of cows in cold weather.  If they can get out of the wind, and the calf is born on straw/cornstalks, they will be just fine down to 0 degrees F.  I would say that the biggest thing is to keep them out of the wind.  The cow licking the calf will stimulate it and help to dry it off.  One really cold year I had some cows that calved in -10 to -20 degree weather.  Calves lost the tips of their ears, but were just fine otherwise.


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## cjc (Dec 20, 2016)

jhm47 said:


> I've calved hundreds of cows in cold weather.  If they can get out of the wind, and the calf is born on straw/cornstalks, they will be just fine down to 0 degrees F.  I would say that the biggest thing is to keep them out of the wind.  The cow licking the calf will stimulate it and help to dry it off.  One really cold year I had some cows that calved in -10 to -20 degree weather.  Calves lost the tips of their ears, but were just fine otherwise.



Thanks for the advice! Luckily our weather turned around a bit, we are up beyond freezing now and getting some warmer weather. I still have her in the back paddocks now she just needs to hurry up and calf!


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## cjc (Jan 3, 2017)

Ok everyone my girl is in labour! It's a nice -7 here this morning! We had a warm patch and I was really hoping she would calf but of course she waited until we got another 2 feet of snow and some freezing air. It's -7, feels like -20. I have her in the paddock, sides covered, sawdust down with straw on top. I have towels and a calf blanket ready for baby!

Really, really hoping it's a heifer calf! I only got bull calves this year and she's my best cow. The water sac is visible now and she is mooing away so shouldn't be much longer. I will post some pics as soon as baby is here.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 3, 2017)

Hope it goes well.  Really good that you're there to help dry that baby!


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## farmerjan (Jan 3, 2017)

They will always calve when the weather changes, has to do with the air pressure/barometer changing...Since it is day, you will be able to make sure the calf gets dry.  Don't put the calf coat on until it is real dry... and make sure that momma doesn't refuse it due to the calf coat....They are mainly for dairy calves that are in hutches and don't have a momma to lick it.  Beef cows are funny about stuff like that.  The biggest thing is to make sure it has a dry place to sleep and can find a place to get out of the wind.  They will nurse more often to keep their body heat up and a good cow will usually try to make sure that the calf is bedded in a decent draft free place.  If you have some wind block and a roof to go under they should be fine.  Hope it is a heifer....


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## farmerjan (Jan 3, 2017)

Beef calves that are with their mommas usually will  not need an added source of warmth like the calf coat since they are nursing more frequently.  You don't want it to get overheated and get sick and you don't want the cow unhappy with the  coat...just giving you some hard learned advice.  Their metabolism is very different from a dairy calf that is housed individually and fed only twice or 3 times a day.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 3, 2017)

Hoping all is well


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## Green Acres Farm (Jan 3, 2017)

And we better get pictures.


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## farmerjan (Jan 3, 2017)

No news is good news......


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## cjc (Jan 3, 2017)

Unfortunately in this case no news was bad news 

Her water broke around 9am, she made little progress so at 3pm I called the vet. I knew something was wrong at that point. I had also called the vet a few days prior bcs this cow was pregnant forever. I kept saying the bull left over 9 months ago how is this possible! He thought maybe she took the day the bull left as she was showing no signs of illness. 

He checked her and quickly told us the calf was deformed. He could feel an abdomen filled with fluid and no legs. Crazy. 

He had nothing to hold onto to pull the calf so we prepped for a c section. He checked her a bit more and popped the sac and drained it more. The placenta tissue was very abnormal. He determined the calf was too big for a c section so he used a knife to drain the fluid from the calves abdomen before he went in. 

We had to call a second vet bcs it was BAD to say the least. They cut her open and determined the calf was a head and giant abdomen no legs. It was too large to take out and her incision was now MASSIVE. The calf was rotting for what they think was a few months. Makes sense considering my complaints on the length of time she was pregnant. But she was showing zero signs of a toxic calf. The calf was also massive, probably about 125lbs. She's a big girl herself but crazy to see a deformed massive calf like this. 

I left the barn and my step dad helped the vet. I did not have to stomach for that. Also I think being pregnant myself it's just not what I want to see right now. When they found the rotting calf and accessed the amount of incisions they told us she had a 5-20% chance of survival. My step father made the call, not bcs he would of himself chose this but bcs I love her and kept her alive. They told us we could either euthanaize her which one vet thought was best or sew her up and see if she made the week. 

So today was a real crap day. Lost the calf I had been waiting on and probably my best cow. We will give her lots of tlc and try and get her better over the next week. I will not breed her again if she recovers but she will be a pet on the farm. She's earned her place.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 3, 2017)

Oh my gosh. No words. 
I am so so so sorry   

This is many livestock owners biggest fear once birthing season comes. 

I hate that y'all and your cow have to go through this 

Glad she wasn't toxic, that is amazing that she hasn't been ill. Hoping she is strong enough to pull through this 

You definitely don't want to be around any of this. Mentally and also you physically don't need to be around all the fluids.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 4, 2017)

Oh my goodness. I am so sad for you.
I am very proud of you for walking away for several reasons. First, I know how much you care but you truly did what was best for you and your baby!
Second, there was nothing you could do and this helps to preserve some emotional energy as well as not exposing yourself to the fluids like @Goat Whisperer  said.

Very much hoping your girl makes it through!


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## babsbag (Jan 4, 2017)

I am sorry about your cow, that is not what I wanted to read.   Hoping for that miracle for your cow.


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## Latestarter (Jan 4, 2017)

Sat here reading with my chin hanging... That is insane!  So sorry that happened to the calf as well as the cow. I hope that the vets were able to patch her back up enough that she can recover and remain a farm pet for you. Glad you got out of there being pregnant yourself.


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## TAH (Jan 4, 2017)

That is awfull  and absolutely crazy! 

Soooooooo sorry for you and mama cow, you waited so long for this, and this happened! 
Really hoping your sweet cow pulls thru! 
You and her desverse it!


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## Sumi (Jan 4, 2017)

So sorry to hear this!  I hope your cow is going to be o.k. Look after yourself and your baby


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## Green Acres Farm (Jan 4, 2017)

I am so sorry.


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## NH homesteader (Jan 4, 2017)

So sorry,  that is truly awful. 

I hope she recovers!


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 4, 2017)

So sorry to hear


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## farmerjan (Jan 4, 2017)

Cjc;  I am so sorry for you.  I know that you waited forever to get her settled.  I am hoping that the vets are exceptional and could get her patched back together and that she will recover.  No, you didn't need to be right there for all that and god bless your step-dad for stepping in to help.  There are always some tough decisions and I think he made the right one for you.  If you can get her through the healing and the threat of infection from the surgery, you will have the "biggest" pet and if not then you can feel right about having tried everything you could.  I think you will feel better about them trying to save her  regardless of what happens now.  One good thing, with the colder weather you will have less problems with other infective agents like flies and such,  so if you can get her over this hump (mountain) then....
There is no good reason for the deformed calf, but there is more chance for that as an animal ages. Yet we have many old cows that have calves every year.  It's just one of those things.  And let's face it, there are just things that there are no real good reasons for.  You have to just take it and go on,  KEEP yourself and your baby safe, that is the most important thing.  Go and whisper sweet nothings in her ear and tell her that she is your favourite cow and that you love her.  The rest will happen as it should.


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## jhm47 (Jan 4, 2017)

Sorry to hear this.  It's always difficult to lose a calf, and possibly the cow too.  Happened to me many times.  Now that I use AI extensively, I don't have genetic problems that cause deformed calves like this.  The Shorthorn breed has several genetic defects, and you must be sure to never mate a carrier cow with a carrier bull.  This holds true for any breed, so I'm not picking on Shorthorns.  The club calf breeders are especially careful with their mating decisions.  There are DNA tests that can determine which cows/bulls are carriers of these problems, and the AI studs are very careful to test their bulls prior to selling semen on them.  Good luck in the future!


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 4, 2017)

Hope your cow is doing okay today


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## norseofcourse (Jan 4, 2017)

Wow, I can't imagine how difficult this has been - so glad you had someone to step in and help.  Best thoughts for her to heal up quickly.


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## cjc (Jan 4, 2017)

Thank you all for your kind words!

She is up on her feet today, groggy but eating and drinking. The vet thinks she will start to turn around day 4. So we will see how she is on Sunday.

We buried the calf today. It was 180lbs!!!!! Like a giant pile of bones.

I feel sad for her. I was originally going to put a orphan calf on her when I heard she was about to have a stillborn but as the night progressed we of course decided that was not what was best for her or a new baby.

She's still got fight in her though, she is trying to kick pretty hard when injecting her today.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 4, 2017)

Good to hear! It seems with goats that the first 24 hours after the C section is crucial. Your girl made it through the night so I'm hoping this means she will have a smooth recovery! 

I don't know cows, but I do know a 180 lb calf is huge


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## NH homesteader (Jan 4, 2017)

She continues to improve.  Funny how we spend time wishing for our animals to fight us!


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## babsbag (Jan 4, 2017)

Glad to hear that she is up and eating, that is always good. Hope that she continues to fight for life and recovers from this ordeal. It is always so hard for me to lose the babies as I get sad for myself AND for the mama, perhaps that is just foolish on my part, maybe they don't mourn like people, but I honestly think that they do.  Hang in there, you a awesome to give her a chance.


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## cjc (Jan 6, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Glad to hear that she is up and eating, that is always good. Hope that she continues to fight for life and recovers from this ordeal. It is always so hard for me to lose the babies as I get sad for myself AND for the mama, perhaps that is just foolish on my part, maybe they don't mourn like people, but I honestly think that they do.  Hang in there, you a awesome to give her a chance.



I feel the same way. I tend to believe cows do mourn the loss of their little ones. I have had cows moo until they lost their voice from the loss of a calf. My girl is not crying out. I really don't think she has even realized she has had a calf and the vet yesterday agreed with me. He said there was not a proper stimulus of her actually going into labour which is why the calf was likely 2 months over due.

The vet did the math on the weight of the calf and with the weight of the fluid in her, in the calf and the weight of the calf itself he estimated she was carrying around 300lbs of calf weight! YIKES! I posted a few months ago thinking she had foot rot because she was almost lame. Vet came out and said she didn't and that she was just weak from carrying a big calf. Well jeeze.

I think I will ultrasound my girls going forward to get more accurate information on calving. The more I think about it the more I think this could have been prevented.


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## babsbag (Jan 6, 2017)

Glad that she is still hanging in there; she is certainly one lucky cow, most would have given up with her.

Sometimes we just have to go with our gut when it comes to our animals. Ultrasounds are really great if you have a vet with a good machine. My vet could tell me the goat was bred but the vet at UC Davis could use his machine and tell you how many kids and an approximate date; that is the information that I want to know. Especially with animals that tend to have multiple babies it is nice to know how many to expect.


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## TAH (Jan 6, 2017)




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## cjc (Jan 6, 2017)

jhm47 said:


> Sorry to hear this.  It's always difficult to lose a calf, and possibly the cow too.  Happened to me many times.  Now that I use AI extensively, I don't have genetic problems that cause deformed calves like this.  The Shorthorn breed has several genetic defects, and you must be sure to never mate a carrier cow with a carrier bull.  This holds true for any breed, so I'm not picking on Shorthorns.  The club calf breeders are especially careful with their mating decisions.  There are DNA tests that can determine which cows/bulls are carriers of these problems, and the AI studs are very careful to test their bulls prior to selling semen on them.  Good luck in the future!



You are right on this. We believe that my cow was a carrier and so was the bull. Unfortunately after this incident the bull has now been retired. He did give me two good calves but the only pure bred registered calf I was going to get out of him came out messed up. He wasn't cheap to "rent". He was known to come from a good background but the owner was pretty shocked when we showed him the calf. They believe the calf had something called PHA. God I had bad luck this year! I may just stick to bottle calves and skip breeding.


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## jhm47 (Jan 7, 2017)

cjc said:


> You are right on this. We believe that my cow was a carrier and so was the bull. Unfortunately after this incident the bull has now been retired. He did give me two good calves but the only pure bred registered calf I was going to get out of him came out messed up. He wasn't cheap to "rent". He was known to come from a good background but the owner was pretty shocked when we showed him the calf. They believe the calf had something called PHA. God I had bad luck this year! I may just stick to bottle calves and skip breeding.



I would hate to see you give up on breeding.  Just consider AI, and be very careful which bulls you use.  All the reputable AI studs will be happy to inform you on the genetic status of their bulls, and by using "clean" bulls, you can eliminate genetic problems. 
You said that you got two calves from the bull in question.  If so, be aware that they have a 50-50 chance of being carriers.  The PHA gene is recessive, so calves that are perfectly healthy can still carry the gene.  The problem comes when mated with another carrier, and then you have a 25% chance of two recessive genes pairing up and creating a calf like you just experienced.  On the positive side, you also have a 25% chance of getting a perfectly clean calf, and a 50% chance of getting a carrier calf.  Just depends on the luck of the draw.  It's actually elementary genetics as discovered by Mendel.  Good luck with your cattle!


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## cjc (Jan 9, 2017)

Thanks @jhm47. Luckily I got no heifers from this bull this year so all of his offspring are now steer's. The irritating part is I thought I was paying to breed my girls to a clean bull.  Hopefully I will get some better luck next time!


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

I'm hoping that the cow is continuing to improve?  How's your weather?  We got down to 7 last night but should start to get warmer this week.  Already up to 25 but somewhat cloudy.


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## cjc (Jan 9, 2017)

We are having some warmer weather but she is in the barn. I won't be moving her out for quiet sometime if she pulls through.

She is barely eating but she's drinking. She is probably eating about 2lbs a grain and half a leaf of alfalfa a day. Not touching her hay. She has been doing this for 2.5 days now. But the vet said she will definitely get sick, its just whether or not she improves after that.

I just called the vet and I am going to step up her drugs. I want to put her on something stronger than the oxytetracycline. I am also going to give her some metacam tonight.


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2017)

I really pulling for your cow. Maybe the pain management will help improve her outlook and her appetite.


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## cjc (Jan 9, 2017)

I hope so too! I switched her to LA 200 every 3 days, Metacam every second day and Trimidox every day. Fingers crossed!  They are even surprised she is still alive and on her feet so they are more hopeful for her today. I just need to get her eating.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 9, 2017)

Hoping she starts eating soon!

I know with goats a B complex injection works wonders with stimulating the appetite. Don't know anything about cattle but could that help?


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

Definitely B vitamins.  If you can get straight B-12 use 5-10 cc a day.  If complex use 10 cc day. For a week.  We always put anything getting antibiotics on B-12 if they go off feed.  Had a cow that didn't clean ( I didn't know until she started to smell as no discharge or anything) and she quit eating.  By then I'd had the vet and we infused her uterus with a pen/solution and the vet said 10 cc B-12 daily for a week.  She started to eat after a few days,  but it took over a month to get the infection under control.  I am not a big fan of LA200 for infections, don't think it hits them hard enough.  We use LA300 here as it is longer acting, but I will also use penicillin at the same time to try to hit all the possibilities.  But do as your vet says since they got her put back together and since she is up  THAT IS A BIG PLUS.  Rooting for her and you.


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2017)

Oh one thing I forgot, pen and oxytet are antagonists and oxy will diminish the pen so we always gave the oxy in one side of the neck and on opposite days of the pen in the other side.  Also, I think that the trimidox with the sulfa in it is probably a better choice.  I think if you can get her to eat more then you will be okay.  Also, the fact that she is drinking is great, the fluids will really help her body to utilize the antibiotics.


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## cjc (Jan 10, 2017)

I do have some vitamin B injection I will give her some tonight. Any idea if I can just mix that in with the Trimidox? I am already poking her in enough places...

Yesterday I gave her the first round of Metacam, Trimidox and LA200. Max dose for her weight for all of those. An hour later she ate 2 leaves of hay and her grain, so I think it's safe to say it hit her in the right spot. The goal was survive a week which is tomorrow! The vet really believes if she survives the week she will likely pull through. Got the $2,000 bill yesterday from the vet. Would be a real shame if she didn't make it. Not only because I care about her and I think she deserves to die an old lady but because THAT WASNT CHEAP!!!


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## babsbag (Jan 10, 2017)

Yikes, the things we do for our animals. I have spent almost that on a couple of cats... so far the goats have spared me that kind of money.

Glad to hear she is eating a little better, pain management may be the trick right now.  

Does she have a name?


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## NH homesteader (Jan 10, 2017)

$2000 on cats???? Wow you have lucky cats!!

I'm glad to hear she's doing better and eating. I hope she pulls through for you!


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## cjc (Jan 10, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Yikes, the things we do for our animals. I have spent almost that on a couple of cats... so far the goats have spared me that kind of money.
> 
> Glad to hear she is eating a little better, pain management may be the trick right now.
> 
> Does she have a name?



Her name is Deana . I got her from a good friend of mine, cattle rancher that has a big herd of Short Horns and has a herd of show cows. I got her when she retired from the show ring. His name is Dean, so I call her Deana haha.


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## cjc (Jan 10, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> $2000 on cats???? Wow you have lucky cats!!
> 
> I'm glad to hear she's doing better and eating. I hope she pulls through for you!



I have a dog that's worth more than my car (broke her neck at 5 years old), and I think I have a pretty nice car haha! My husband and I are what you call...suckers.


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## babsbag (Jan 10, 2017)

One kitty had Lymphoma and with the testing (no chemo) it was over 500.00. She belonged to my son and the things we do for our children.  Another had a thyroid issue that was treated with radiation, that was 1200.00.  I loved that cat more than any cat ever in my life, and I have owned A LOT of cats.  He was worth every dime of that money. 

@cjc I understand "sucker" all too well. It just seems that mine are always cats. The last one was an emergency c-section on a stray.


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## cjc (Jan 13, 2017)

Well she is still alive. Seems to be more alert but on day 3 with no food. She has been really into her salt lick though, went through 1 in 2 days. The vet is going to stop by and look at her today when he is out on his calls.

He said he thinks the fact she has made it this far means she's out of the woods on septic peritonitis which is what we thought would kill her. But the no eating thing is worrying me. But she gets up when we walk in the barn and still fights us when we inject her.


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## babsbag (Jan 13, 2017)

Thanks for the update.


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 13, 2017)

for you both


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 13, 2017)

Hope she gets hungry soon!


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 13, 2017)

Glad she is still with you! 
Hoping she eats soon


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2017)

Glad to hear she is hanging in there. 
We are all rooting for her! and you too... this has been a rough one - hang in there!


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## cjc (Jan 16, 2017)

The vet came over and gave her a "drench" on Saturday. If anyone doesn't know what that is (because I sure didn't) they basically take a huge long tube, stick it down their throat right into the rumen and pump 8L of fluid into her. The fluid has a bunch of minerals and electrolytes and stuff in it. She took it like a champ but then had the worst runs the next day so we moved her out of the barn and into the paddock so she could watch the other cows and hopefully mock them and get eating.

5 days and still no food but maybe am I just missing her snacking a bit on hay? She fought us hard last night during her injections you'd think she would be exhausted from no eating by this point?

Anyone have any idea how long a cow can go without eating?


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## babsbag (Jan 16, 2017)

I have no idea how long they can go but I know with a goat off feed I worry about the rumen shutting down. Do you still hear rumen sounds? Hopefully she is snacking on the sly.


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## cjc (Jan 16, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I have no idea how long they can go but I know with a goat off feed I worry about the rumen shutting down. Do you still hear rumen sounds? Hopefully she is snacking on the sly.



Yes our vet was worried about this as well he said he does still hear it, it's just slow. Also when he did the drench he actually smelt the rumen gas, offered me a sniff but I passed on the offer! He said he could still smell the gas quiet strong. The longest I have had a cow, well it was actually a calf go without food was 3 days and he almost died. I know its different with a cow but it just seems after 5 days, now on day 6, she would lethargic. She put up one hell of a fight yesterday.


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## greybeard (Jan 16, 2017)

cjc said:


> The vet came over and gave her a "drench" on Saturday. If anyone doesn't know what that is (because I sure didn't) they basically take a huge long tube, stick it down their throat right into the rumen and pump 8L of fluid into her. The fluid has a bunch of minerals and electrolytes and stuff in it. She took it like a champ but then had the worst runs the next day so we moved her out of the barn and into the paddock so she could watch the other cows and hopefully mock them and get eating.
> 
> 5 days and still no food but maybe am I just missing her snacking a bit on hay? She fought us hard last night during her injections you'd think she would be exhausted from no eating by this point?
> 
> Anyone have any idea how long a cow can go without eating?


Depends on her condition and absolute nutritional needs, but they can go a long time on stored fat--at least 2-3 weeks if need be. The fact that she still has energy enough to fight ya when it comes to medication is a good thing. 
Is she drinking any water at all on her own?


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## cjc (Jan 16, 2017)

cjc said:


> he could still smell the gas quiet





greybeard said:


> Depends on her condition and absolute nutritional needs, but they can go a long time on stored fat--at least 2-3 weeks if need be. The fact that she still has energy enough to fight ya when it comes to medication is a good thing.
> Is she drinking any water at all on her own?



She is drinking water most days but she hasn't had much since the drench, I think it hit her pretty hard. But yes, she is still taking in some water.

She was living with my bottle calves so tonight when I give them grain I am going to bring some of the calves in with her and feed them together. She is always so aggressive with food I am thinking maybe if the calves rush the grain her food motivated instincts will kick in and she will try eating. I am grasping at anything here! I am offering her all of her favorite things. She has two types of grain, good quality hay, poor quality hay and alfalfa all to choose from in her paddock.


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## farmerjan (Jan 16, 2017)

Did you happen to ask the vet about B-12?  As an appetite stimulant?  I had a cow that went for 9+ days with no apparent feed intake although she did drink 5-20 gal a day.  Put electrolytes in her water bucket too to help keep her strength up.   I gave that cow B-12;   5cc / day for 10 days, then she finally started eating.  She had twisted (DA) and just didn't bounce back like most do.  Once I got her to finally eat, she came back.  Lost that lactation, and when she got back some weight we shipped her, since she had been a problem from the first calf and this was the third. 
Good idea to bring the calves in to "entice her" to want to eat/hog the grain.  She may be picking at the hay a bit when you don't notice.  I think that cow of mine was eating a mouthful or two but not so you'd notice.  She may need the company and she may be depressed because there is no calf to stir her maternal instinct.  Her hormones have to be going in the opposite direction since she is no longer pregnant, and they do grieve for their babies even though there wasn't a successful outcome, her body is adjusting hormonally to the difference. 
I would take the grain away and only offer it when you give it to the calves and she might get a little more interest since it isn't there in front of her too. Keep the hay there as she needs to be able to eat it if only a mouthful at a time.
Good luck, I think of her nearly everyday when I am doing my animals.


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## cjc (Jan 17, 2017)

farmerjan said:


> Did you happen to ask the vet about B-12?  As an appetite stimulant?  I had a cow that went for 9+ days with no apparent feed intake although she did drink 5-20 gal a day.  Put electrolytes in her water bucket too to help keep her strength up.   I gave that cow B-12;   5cc / day for 10 days, then she finally started eating.  She had twisted (DA) and just didn't bounce back like most do.  Once I got her to finally eat, she came back.  Lost that lactation, and when she got back some weight we shipped her, since she had been a problem from the first calf and this was the third.
> Good idea to bring the calves in to "entice her" to want to eat/hog the grain.  She may be picking at the hay a bit when you don't notice.  I think that cow of mine was eating a mouthful or two but not so you'd notice.  She may need the company and she may be depressed because there is no calf to stir her maternal instinct.  Her hormones have to be going in the opposite direction since she is no longer pregnant, and they do grieve for their babies even though there wasn't a successful outcome, her body is adjusting hormonally to the difference.
> I would take the grain away and only offer it when you give it to the calves and she might get a little more interest since it isn't there in front of her too. Keep the hay there as she needs to be able to eat it if only a mouthful at a time.
> Good luck, I think of her nearly everyday when I am doing my animals.




Thanks for thinking about my girl! I didn't ask him about it as a appetite stimulate but I will today, he thought the drench would that and he added a bunch of vitamins too it so perhaps B-12 was in it.

She did put her head in the grain bucket yesterday when the calves were eating but she didn't really eat anything. So that does seem to stimulate her some way. We will do that for all her feedings. We also put a ton of molasses on grain and hay and offered it to her. She licked up the molasses so I may get creative with that today. I am sure molasses isn't the best thing to get her started eating on but its better than nothing.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 17, 2017)

If she's licking molasses, maybe some of the fortified tubs or liquids would be a help?   Like you, I'm grabbing at straws to increase food & nutrient intake.     Red Cell has always helped my minis and  some of the calmative meds can create the "munchies" for the animal.


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## babsbag (Jan 22, 2017)

How is your cow?   When I don't see a post in a situation like this I am almost afraid to ask. I hope no news is good news. 

BTW did you ever find out if you are having a girl or boy?


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## Beekissed (Jan 23, 2017)

After all the antibiotics, she could need some LABs/probios to jumpstart her rumen.  I wouldn't give her less than 30 billion count, 50 if you can get it.  That could get her eating and digesting well again.


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## cjc (Jan 23, 2017)

She went 11 solid days with not even a sniff of food. I called a friend and said I was going to give her 2 more days to eat and then I was going to put her down. I tried one last thing. I drenched her one last time, @Beekissed all the good stuff you mention is in my drench. I also put the drenching powder in her water. Plus electrolytes in another to get her from all angels. I also took her off the LA 200 and moved her to a long active Penicillin, now I know I have hit her with all types of antibiotics. She is now eating a bit of hay. She is back to normal looking manure, not as consistent as she should be but its still not water. We have seen her eating hay the past 2 days.

I also took her out of her paddock and put her out with the calves. I think this helped her get to the round bale to eat. She is still not eating grain but I am going to give her another week to see if she can start to feel better. I refuse to watch her suffer so I am glad I am seeing some improvement.

I am taking her off metacam and trimidox today and only going to give her a few more doses (every 3 days) of the Penicillin. I gave her Trimidox, LA200 and metacam for 2 solid weeks. If it is going to help her I think it already has. Penicillin will be our last attempt. But I do have faith now that she is eating. She is still isolating herself from the herd at night and when grazing so that's concerning. And the not eating grain is a concern as well. She normally bulldozes the other cows for grain.  I will let you all know what the next few days bring for our sweet girl. She ran for her life yesterday in the field when we tried to give her a shot. Bucking like crazy. Took 2 hours to get her. So that to me is a good sign.

@babsbag I am having a BOY! Thanks for asking. First boy on my side in 5 generations! He has A LOT of aunties waiting for him.


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## farmerjan (Jan 23, 2017)

cjc  I really think that any type of probiotics will help her gut tract.  And the running for her life to NOT get the shot really is a good sign.  Is she running a temp??  If not then you can pretty much rule out infection at this point.   All those antibiotics have killed off any good intestinal flora and she won't have any appetite and nothing will taste good so she won't want to eat.  If she is eating hay, don't worry about the grain for now.  The bulk of the hay is better for her to get her rumen working better.  I still also believe she is going through an adjustment of the hormones from the over long "pregnancy" , on top of the surgery.  I honestly do believe that if she is eating the hay, she is on the road to recovery.  She may never be a grain eater again.  If there is no fever, then I think you will be okay.  Keep electrolytes/nutrients in her water, and maybe some probiotics down her a couple of times to get her intestinal flora back up and going. The gels are a pain to give but REALLY do help.  We use it for any animals that are run down, not eating, acting not "right".

We have a very thin cow that we are working with right now so I think of your trials when we feed.  She is up and eating, she got very thin at pasture, I am thinking maybe hardware now and will put a magnet down her too.  She's also been limping on one foot and wasn't going to the water trough so got dehydrated also.  We had weaned her calf in late Oct so it wasn't that she was getting run down from that. And she isn't a pet or anything but you still try to take care of them....


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## babsbag (Jan 23, 2017)

2 hours to catch her is certainly a sign that she is tired of being poked. Poor girl, it's hard when we have to hurt them to fix them. 

Congratulations on the baby boy, sounds like he is going to be spoiled.


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## cjc (Jan 23, 2017)

@farmerjan she is running a slight temp. Minor. The vet said he added everything in terms of probiotics to the drench powder.

Sorry about your cow . This is the first cow I have ever dealt with that won't eat. I have had calves but never a cow. Resflour is an expensive drug and I am sure you know this but I use it for any limp in a cow.


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## cjc (Jan 23, 2017)

Well my girl just went out for the grain feeding and ate with the herd! And it wasn't just a sample she ate fast and hard.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 23, 2017)

cjc said:


> Well my girl just went out for the grain feeding and ate with the herd! And it wasn't just a sample she ate fast and hard.


So happy to hear this!


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## NH homesteader (Jan 23, 2017)

How great is that?


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## farmerjan (Jan 23, 2017)

So glad she decided she wanted grain.  Once she gets some "energy" into her, she ought to be well on her way.  Glad that she is feeling better.  The hay in her rumen first is the best thing for her and the microbes to work on repopulating all the necessary bacteria to digest her feed.   Great news.


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## babsbag (Jan 23, 2017)

I just love some good news.


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## TAH (Jan 23, 2017)




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## cjc (Jan 25, 2017)

Day 3 back on feed. She is eating grain and hay now. Also still addicted to the salt lick. She also joined the herd again yesterday. She was choosing to hang out alone the past week and also sleep alone but that changed yesterday. She is now back to sleeping and grazing with them which I think is a good sign.

I am going to give her one more injection of long active penicillin tonight and then one more 5 days after that. Then I am going to take her off everything.

Assuming all goes well with her recovery I am going to move her out to another piece of land I have with some of my other girls this spring. Since she is a pet now I need to keep her belly full without a massive cost so we won't get any complaining from the men in our life. I have a plan for her that will keep her costs really minimal well still keeping her care great and still having her on the family farm. She's my biggest cow and the one I usually spend the most money feeding because she put out the biggest reward.

I've got it all figured out now she just needs to get 100% better so I can stop worrying about her!


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 25, 2017)

Glad to hear she's doing so well!


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## babsbag (Jan 25, 2017)

Glad to hear she is doing good. You are good person to care so much. Hope all your plans for her work out too.


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## cjc (Feb 16, 2017)

I just wanted to update you all on my news. I ended up having to euthanatize my girl on Saturday. She started a steady decline about a week ago and stopped eating again. Her incision started draining really heavily. I tried to combat it with more drugs but it just wasn't helping her at all. I tried to give her as many days as I could to turn around but Saturday morning we woke up to her head down on the ground moaning out in pain. I called the vet in for an emergency and we euthanized her via injection. Sad day but we all felt at peace letting her go.

I ended up calling a dead livestock guy to remove her body because the ground is so frozen here we couldn't bury her and it brought up a whole other topic for me. The guy was trying to convince me not to euthanatize her via injection but to allow him to shoot her. I get it, most cows do go this way but not this girl. I wasn't willing to put her down that way. When he came to get her after the vet had put her down he explained to me why he wanted to shoot her. He wanted to use her meat in dog food. I explained to him that she was VERY ill, literally oozing in puss. He said it didn't matter.

Now, we feed our farm dog a raw meat diet. It's about 50% beef. Now I cannot stop thinking about WHAT IS IN THAT FOOD! I always assumed it would be lower quality meat, obviously, but not severely ill animals. I don't eat beef myself because of some of the things I've seen around. But geez, I was super bothered by this.


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 16, 2017)

so sorry to hear


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## NH homesteader (Feb 16, 2017)

Sorry to hear that. And wow... He didn't care about her illness or all of the medication you had given her?? That's amazing. I can't imagine.


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## babsbag (Feb 16, 2017)

I'm sorry,  you certainly went above in beyond trying to give her a good chance at life. I hate it that we are sometimes so helpless and that we can't just save them all.

That is VERY disturbing about the dog food. With all of the antibiotics she had been given plus the infection I would hope that they wouldn't use that meat. It is no wonder that our pets have skin issues and other things going on. I wonder if intense processing of the meat to turn it into dry kibble would remove all that?


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## cjc (Feb 16, 2017)

Ya exactly, totally disturbing. I know its clearly not legal for human consumption but I dunno, I don't think that's ok for anyone's pet to consume either. You're right I pumped her full of a TON of meds. Pain Killers, Antibiotics, etc. I can't imagine any processing would get rid of that or the amount of infection I know she had in her system.

He told me the only thing that stops them from using the meat is the drug they used to euthanize her. Once I did that she could only be incinerated.


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## TAH (Feb 16, 2017)

So sorry cjc!


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## babsbag (Feb 16, 2017)

I was thinking of taking my surplus bucklings and using them for jerky for dogs treats and then sell the jerky. Then I found out that I have to make the "dog food" in a commercial kitchen. Since my state is so strict on that I wonder what their take would be on the quality of the meat. I was just talking to my DH that other day about that venture and wondering if the meat for the jerky has to be USDA inspected. 

I just find it disturbing.


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## farmerjan (Feb 16, 2017)

@cjc ; So very sorry for the loss of your cow.  You couldn't have done much more for her, and did much more than 99% of the people would have.  At least you do know that she had every chance in the world, and for a little while did have some quality of life back.  I know it was a terrible expense on top of the heartbreak.  
I don't know what to say except that it was better all the way around that you did use the vet and euthanized her with the injection.  This way you are totally satisfied that she is gone, and no thoughts of her being a meal for another animal.  I am not so surprised about the idea of dog/animal food;  most drugs do have a withdrawal time although she did have more than most ever do and the withdrawal would have been way extended.  The infection part does bother me quite a bit, but let's face it;  how much do we really know about what is being fed unless we raise all the food we, and our animals ingest.

There used to be a time when dead animals like that were used as blood meal and bone meal for fertilizer and even as additives in feed preparations.  The BSE, aka as Mad Cow Disease, put the kibosh to that.  I don't know if it costs you to have them picked up, up there.  We used to get paid for a dead animal, then it was free, now we have to pay.  Some counties no longer allow a farmer to bury them on their own land.  Some I know have  "a place to take them" out in the "back woods", and the wildlife just takes care of them, which is really what nature intended rather than contaminating the ground with the burying.  Our county landfill will let you take them there for free.


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## Green Acres Farm (Feb 16, 2017)

I'm so sorry.


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## WildRoseBeef (Feb 16, 2017)

Sorry about the cow CJC, but I can explain about the euthanasia thing.

I would never ever leave an animal that was euthanized with a lethal injection of barbiturates--that's typically the drug used to, well, kill her (sorry to be this blunt)--for wildlife to feed, let alone for dogs, because the barbiturates are a toxic compound that can poison and possibly even kill any scavenger that feeds on her. That's not good. So incinerating or burial is the best option to take care of her body.

Did the fella know that she was full of antibiotics? I know you told her she was very sick, but did you also tell him the number of times and types of medications you put into her? If you I have a hunch that he wouldn't be saying "it wouldn't matter" if he knew just how full of drugs she was. And I'm hoping that he didn't say it didn't matter if you actually told him! 

And _no amount_ of processing is going to remove that drug residue. None whatsoever. That stuff is ingrained in the tissues of any animal. If there was a way for those drugs to be removed from tissue of processed animals, we would never hear again of the issues surrounding antibiotic residue in meat. Literally.

I mean, the rendering will kill any _pathogens_, but not drug residue. 

But regarding just the mere aspect of infection and not the drug residue, that's something a bit different. As long as the infection or disease is not contagious, killed animals with either cap-bolt or gunshot can be rendered. You better check with the BC government regulation standards with rendering carcasses with drug residues, because I just have the Alberta one pulled up doesn't have much else other than some regulations under the CFIA and Health Canada. http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2014_132.pdf


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## cjc (Feb 17, 2017)

@WildRoseBeef  I did mention to him that I had her pumped full of drugs . I know once I used the drugs to euthanize her I had to get her off of our land. The vet warned me about that and the dog had to stay in the house until she was removed. She was removed and from what he told me, grinded, put into a bin and sent to Alberta for burning or burying of some sort.

@farmerjan cost me $210 to have her removed. Could have been cheaper if I would have let him slaughter her but because I didn't I had to pay for the service to Alberta.


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## farmerjan (Feb 17, 2017)

When I said that some will just put a dead one in the woods or a gully or whatever, I wasn't referring to anything that the vet would have euthanized with drugs.  I meant anything that was shot, which is all that anyone does here.  Even the vets will shoot a farm animal rather than give it drugs unless someone requests otherwise.  99% of the farmers here will just put their own down, or call a neighbor farmer to do it. 
We have a rendering plant about 30-40 miles north in another county.  It usually costs about $50 for them to come get one, but I don't know if they will take one that has been euthanized that way.  Since our local landfill will take them, we usually take them there.  They get buried right along with the normal trash and stuff.  And most every farm here has a "hole" for their own dead animals.


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## cjc (Feb 17, 2017)

Makes sense. We always bury our own animals but with all the snow we have right now it made it virtually impossible.


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## WildRoseBeef (Feb 17, 2017)

cjc said:


> @WildRoseBeef  I did mention to him that I had her pumped full of drugs .



Man that sucks. And he still wanted to take her as she was for rendering. Well, I think you did the right thing by choosing the injection route rather than let him bring out the gun.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Feb 17, 2017)

I'm so sorry!   You gave her a great chance at life...


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 18, 2017)

@cjc I am SO sorry about your girl 
Not the outcome anyone had hoped for 


Hope you take comfort in knowing that you went above and beyond for her.


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## purplequeenvt (Feb 18, 2017)

farmerjan said:


> Definitely B vitamins.  If you can get straight B-12 use 5-10 cc a day.  If complex use 10 cc day. For a week.  We always put anything getting antibiotics on B-12 if they go off feed.  Had a cow that didn't clean ( I didn't know until she started to smell as no discharge or anything) and she quit eating.  By then I'd had the vet and we infused her uterus with a pen/solution and the vet said 10 cc B-12 daily for a week.  She started to eat after a few days,  but it took over a month to get the infection under control.  I am not a big fan of LA200 for infections, don't think it hits them hard enough.  We use LA300 here as it is longer acting, but I will also use penicillin at the same time to try to hit all the possibilities.  But do as your vet says since they got her put back together and since she is up  THAT IS A BIG PLUS.  Rooting for her and you.



Just an FYI, something I learned recently, you shouldn't give oxytetracycline at the same time as penicillin as the oxytetracycline interacts with the penicillin and basically neutralizes it.


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 18, 2017)

That was my thinking too.


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## cjc (Feb 20, 2017)

purplequeenvt said:


> Just an FYI, something I learned recently, you shouldn't give oxytetracycline at the same time as penicillin as the oxytetracycline interacts with the penicillin and basically neutralizes it.



Yes the vet did tell me about this, they are counter productive. I discounted the oxy before starting the Penicillin, it's one or the other.


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## norseofcourse (Feb 21, 2017)

I'm so sorry she didn't make it


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