# sick goat again



## farmerlisa (Dec 25, 2011)

Hi all....I posted last month about my young doe who was not doing well.  I got some really good advice and she seemed to get better.  Yesterday we were playing with her and she seemed just fine.  Well this morning we went out to do chores and we found her outside the shed laying in the snow and we thought she was dead.  Scared us to death.  We brought her in and and got her body temp up, I gave her a shot of pennicillian and some vitamin AD and hoped for the best.  About 2 1/2 hours later she was able to stand and was drinking on her own.  She is still improving thankfully!  I am wondering if I should deworm her (she was dewormed in Sept).  Anything else I should do?  She is looking pretty skinny so that is why I ask about deworming.  Also how days shoudl I give her penicillian?  Thanks!


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 26, 2011)

the penn is 5 to 7 days, I like to give it twice a day, atleast for the first 2 or 3 days. 

Could be parasites, could be coccidiosis. 

Could be she has pnuemonia.


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## elevan (Dec 26, 2011)

> Here is farmerlisa's previous thread:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=14858


Deworming in Sept has no real bearing on what is happening now.  You could potentially get a worm problem every 3-4 weeks.  Although if you do it's time to cull the goat.

Looks like you maybe treated for coccidia the last time.  If you're having crazy weather like I am (unseasonably warm and wet) then you'll probably want to do it again.

Of course, getting a fecal done (if you can) would be best as it'll tell you what you're dealing with.  See if your vet can do a bacterial culture on it too.

I would really suggest taking this goat to the vet for an evaluation for parasites and pneumonia.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 26, 2011)

So if I give penicillian will that treat pnuemonia?  I did deworm her last night...when would you suggest doing it again?  She is eating and drinking well and is moving around but still a little slow.  Our weather has been a little crazy for winter.   The days have been pretty warm for Minnesota is Dec.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 26, 2011)

What did you deworm her with and how much did you give her?

Penicillin can work for pneumonia but sometimes you need something stronger. It really does sound like your girl could use a trip to the vet for a once over and a fecal. if you are worming her with the wrong wormer, then you aren't taking care of the problem. Different dewormers take care of different worms. You may have some odd worm that you are dealing with if your weather has been funny.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 26, 2011)

I gave her 1cc of invermectin.  I am going to call the vet and see what I can do about getting her in.  Our vets here are really high and at the moment we are waiting to get paid.


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## elevan (Dec 26, 2011)

Please provide some more information...

Weight of the goat:

Temperature of the goat:

Coughing?:

Diarrhea?:

Eyelid color (inside of lower lid):


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## farmerlisa (Dec 26, 2011)

Weight of the goat: ABOUT 40 LBS (SHE WAS THE RUNT OF THE TWO AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN QUITE A BIT SMALLER

Temperature of the goat:  I AM HEADING TO TOWN SHORTLY TO GET ANOTHER THERMOMETER...MINE GOT DISPOSED OF LAST NIGHT WITH THE NEEDLES. 

Coughing?: NO COUGHING AND BREATHING SEEMS NORMAL

Diarrhea?:  NO DIARRHEA BUT HER PEBBLES ARE SMALLER THAN NORMAL AND A LITTLE HARDER THAN NORMAL

Eyelid color (inside of lower lid): IS PINK BUT NOT QUITE AS DARK AS HER SISTERS


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## elevan (Dec 26, 2011)

At 40 pounds, you under dosed by giving only 1 ml of ivermectin.  You need to dose at least 1 ml / 25# orally when using the 1% injectible (which is what I'm presuming that you used).

Your goat needs another 1 ml.  Since you just gave last night then go ahead and give another 1 ml now.

Dehydration may be a problem based on your description of the poo pellets.  Add some electrolytes to the water or drench with pedialyte.

If she's not coughing and doesn't have a fever (you'll know that soon enough after you get a new thermometer) then I wouldn't treat with antibiotics.

Please don't take this wrong but you're setting your farm up for drug resistant worms and bacteria by under dosing and using antibiotics when they're not needed.  I completely understand not having the funds to go to a vet.  But, that makes it even more important that you don't set your farm up for future long term problems.

What I suggest:

1) Give another ml of ivermectin now.  In 10 days give 2 ml of ivermectin.
2) Drench with pediatlyte or add electrolytes to the water.
3) Take temp (if over 103 then give PenG at 1ml / 15# 2x daily for 7 days)
4) I would also treat with either Valbazen (1ml / 25#) or Safeguard (1ml/ 10# for 3 days in a row).


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## farmerlisa (Dec 26, 2011)

I will go out and give her another dose of the dewormer.  I found a site that said 1cc per 50 lbs for injectable...must have been a typo.  I have been giving her electrolytes (forgot to mention that earlier sorry).  Can I get the Valbazen  or Safeguard at my local farm service and should I do paste or injectible?  Thank you very much for your advice, it is much appreciated!


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 26, 2011)

valbazene and safegaurd only come in an oral  liquid, although safegaurd is marketed under the name panacur for horses and that is a paste.


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## elevan (Dec 26, 2011)

I usually get the Safeguard liquid at TSC.  I sometimes have a hard time finding Valbazen (usually get online or at the vet), it's a liquid given orally too.  (They're called oral suspensions).

Regarding what you saw (1ml / 50#).  It's important to note that different regions (even different farms) have different levels of resistance.  Ivermectin has a fairly high safety margin, it's better to give more than not enough if you don't know your resistance level.  I really don't know of anywhere in the US where ivermectin is still good at that level though.  :/  See the Parasite Management link in my signature line for more info on the topic.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 26, 2011)

okay so her temp is good and i gave her another dose of the invermectin.  I will follow up with the other wormer too.  Thanks so much for all your help.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 27, 2011)

Well she seemed to get a little worse from last night.  I called the vet and they can't get me in till tomorrow.  She now has a temp so should I go ahead with pennicillian or wait to see what the vet puts her on?  Their shelter is warm but she is just shivering and when she falls over she doesn't have the strength to get up.  We brought her inside and set her up in a large dog kennel with the top off.  Is that bad to bring her into the warm house?  I am fine with keeping her in until she gets better and we were going to set up another heat lamp in the shed before she would go back out.  Anyother suggestions for me?


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 27, 2011)

If it was me, I wouldn't have taken her off the Penn.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 27, 2011)

Do you have Banamine? I would give her a shot of Banamine. If you are going to the vet tomorrow, then I wouldn't give her any antibiotics until you see the vet. He may want her on a different one that may not go well with Penicillin. I would keep her as comfortable as possible.


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 27, 2011)

Call the vet back, and tell them the kid more than likely isn't going to make it with out medication today. That she is barely standing. See if they will see you today.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 27, 2011)

I do have Banamine but it is very expired...I have never had to use it and I have had for it a few years.  I did tell the vet her condition and I guess they have had several emergencies already today and are extremely overbooked.    She is rested now and "seems" comfortable.  She is nibbling on hay and talking to us when we walk by or talk to her.


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 27, 2011)

I wish you the best of luck. sounds very very frustrating.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 27, 2011)

Took Sugar's temp and it is now 102.9.  She  is eating and drinking normal and is more lively!  I opened the door to the kennel to give her fresh water and she was so excited and almost pushed me over.  I am very happy to see some improvement!  I still have her in our house and plan to keep her in until she is more stable.  I am hoping for some answers tomorrow.


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## elevan (Dec 27, 2011)

I'm glad she's feeling spunky this evening.  Please keep us updated on what the vet has to say.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 28, 2011)

Well the vet visti went well....They did a fecal and blood work.  It showed she still had worms one of which was whip worm.  He said he does not see it much in goats.  She was anemic so he gave her a b12 shot and a stonger dewormer.  He wants her dewormed again in two weeks and wants her on penicillian for 5 days.  I got dewomer from him to treat the other two goats so hopefully it will clear up anything they might have.  Whew....he said to she should recover fine.  Thanks again!


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## Mamaboid (Dec 28, 2011)

farmerlisa said:
			
		

> Well the vet visti went well....They did a fecal and blood work.  It showed she still had worms one of which was whip worm.  He said he does not see it much in goats.  She was anemic so he gave her a b12 shot and a stonger dewormer.  He wants her dewormed again in two weeks and wants her on penicillian for 5 days.  I got dewomer from him to treat the other two goats so hopefully it will clear up anything they might have.  Whew....he said to she should recover fine.  Thanks again!


Glad you got good news.


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## elevan (Dec 28, 2011)

Glad to hear the vet visit went well.

*What *was the _stronger _dewormer?


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## austintgraf (Dec 28, 2011)

This may not be my place to say...after all I am no vet, but my vet said whip worms are really bad little parasites. dogs are usually what they are seen in most. The problem with them is they bury their eggs in the ground and will stay their for up to ten years, hatching when the conditions are right, my personal vet recommended an intensive wormer regimine rotating through the three main types of wormer. If you would like I can provide you the regimine. It works great and you could use it as a base to keep your goats healthy. After all the best method of treating illness is prevention.


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## farmerlisa (Dec 28, 2011)

I looked at my slip and it doesn't say the name of the dewormer.  I will call though and ask what it is.  I would love a regimine from you.  I am all about trying to keep everyone healhy.  I am going to be making up a list of medicines/dosage/animals today.  We have two alpacas, six horses and 3 goats and chickens.  I am finding it hard to remember what animals gets what dosage......turning the corner to 40 so the memory is going   So if anyone has any imput on that I would appreciate it.


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## jodief100 (Dec 28, 2011)

austintgraf said:
			
		

> This may not be my place to say...after all I am no vet, but my vet said whip worms are really bad little parasites. dogs are usually what they are seen in most. The problem with them is they bury their eggs in the ground and will stay their for up to ten years, hatching when the conditions are right, my personal vet recommended an intensive wormer regimine rotating through the three main types of wormer. If you would like I can provide you the regimine. It works great and you could use it as a base to keep your goats healthy. After all the best method of treating illness is prevention.


Sorry to contradict you but worming on schedule and rotating wormers has been proven in numerous studies to be the WORST way to treat goats and sheep for worms.  Yes, a lot of vets recommend it because that was what worked for a long time.  Then wormer resistance started showing up and eventually most of the old wormers quit working.  With only a few wormers that still work and even those loosing effectiveness a new approach had to be taken.  There are NO NEW wormers in the research pipeline so what we have is what we get.  

If you use wormers as a  preventative, you will very quickly have a farm full of resistant worms and nothing to treat them with.   You need to treat only goats who need it, then with the proper wormer at the proper dosage.  You need to make sure your wormer is working.  If it isn't, up the dosage and try again.  If it still isn't working, try something new.  When you find one that works, stick with it until it no longer does.  


Please look over this thread, there is a lot of good information on it.  

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt

What kind of wormer did you vet give you?  You should bring a sample back in two weeks.  If there is not a 90% reduction in worm count, it isn't working.  You will need to up the dosage or try something else.  In goats, the worst worm out there is barberpole worm.  


I implore you- PLEASE do not worm on a schedule and rotate wormers.


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 28, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> austintgraf said:
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X2  Worming everything, worming on a schedule and rotating wormers have all been linked to wormer resistance, it is an excellant way to end up with a very very resistant case of parasites on your farm.  I have never talked to a vet in our area that would recommend worming with different wormers on a rotational basis. All the recommendation I have heard are to use the same wormer as long as possible and only worm animals that are showing signs of parasites and becareful not to underdose.


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## austintgraf (Jan 13, 2012)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> austintgraf said:
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I used to agree but in commercial production it is better as a preventative measure. I used to worm as needed though worms can be sneaky and unless you do a fecal analysis every few weeks which to be honest isn't a bad proposition... it is very difficult to keep your goats healthy. Though I also practice organic wormers in my rotation which are essentially what they would use in the wild. I don't wish to disagree with you but this is a very controversial topic and one which is backed on both sides by research and there are fairly new wormer such as Valbazen which is very very effective. It is simple a matter of preferance. Though I do agree in full with your statement that they build resistance which is an awful awful thing. Though the key to health in goats has nothing to do with wormers  to begin with but pasture rotation and offering proper browse and minerals.


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## Roll farms (Jan 13, 2012)

> I used to agree but in commercial production it is better as a preventative measure. I used to worm as needed though worms can be sneaky and unless you do a fecal analysis every few weeks which to be honest isn't a bad proposition... it is very difficult to keep your goats healthy. Though I also practice organic wormers in my rotation which are essentially what they would use in the wild. I don't wish to disagree with you but this is a very controversial topic and one which is backed on both sides by research and there are fairly new wormer such as Valbazen which is very very effective. It is simple a matter of preferance. Though I do agree in full with your statement that they build resistance which is an awful awful thing. Though the key to health in goats has nothing to do with wormers  to begin with but pasture rotation and offering proper browse and minerals.


With all due respect, I'd like to see the research you're referring to that backs switching dewormers and giving them routinely in treating goats.
I have done extensive research on this topic, and have never seen anything suggesting that's a good practice (except in horses...and I disagree with the practice regardless of the species).
There are many University-backed studies, trials, etc. done on this, with more ongoing every day....and the more they learn, the more they beg people to stop the insanity of dewormer rotation and to learn which dewormer class to use for the different parasites, and which dosage to use to be effective.

http://www.extension.org/pages/19651/goat-dewormers

http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/parasites.html

I've used Valbazen for the past 8 years when after tapeworms and occasionally for barberpole in open does and bucks.  It's not really 'new'.

If I had to deworm my goats routinely or change dewormers constantly....I'd shoot my goats.  
I literally have goats I haven't had to deworm in several months, in a few it's been years.  
THAT is how you survive, by breeding / selecting for goats who aren't going to need constant deworming, and by feeding / housing / pasturing them correctly, and selectively deworming on an as-needed-only basis w/ the right dewormer for the parasite you're after.

In commercial production - for meat or dairy - using dewormers constantly isn't 'good', it's creating withdrawal times that keep your product off the 'table'.

By saying 'the best method of treating an illness is to prevent it' - that would mean we should all keep things clean, keep the goats well fed / levels up on minerals, move them to rested pastures, good hay, etc.
It should not mean we need to give them chemicals they may not / should not regularly need.  In that case, let's all take loads of antibiotics before we get sick, and maybe we never will....?

Typically, Barberpole is the 'killer' worm.  A few others, like bankrupt worm, will cause serious issues, but usually in a healthy herd, the other parasites are a minor nuisance, not problematic enough to cause losses, just unthriftiness (poor looking coat, slow growth, etc).

I FAMACHA scored my entire herd last week, which consists of 25 or so does and 2 bucks of various breeds, for the first time since October (I've done periodic spot checks, but hadn't checked them all the same day since Oct.) and only 2 were in the 'might need dewormed' range.  Those two were the only 2 dewormed in 3 months.  One was given valbazen (she's open), the other was given cydectin.

I rechecked them yesterday and both scored a point higher than last week.  I will check them again next week for my own peace of mind, but since it's finally freezing her in IN, I suspect they'll be ok.  I truly don't expect to 'need' to deworm again until after the spring thaw, but will monitor and do so as needed.

The key to healthy goats may not be deworming, but deworming often w/ the wrong thing will NOT make them healthy, either.


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## austintgraf (Jan 14, 2012)

I won't agrue its against my nature....I did what I thought I had to and all the vets in my county felt that i should enact a worming regimine. I plan to go back to my old way which is medicate as needed once I am confident in my abilities to read fecals. It is impractical to have my vets do it. It takes them three days to run a 45 minute test. Totally ridiculious.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 17, 2012)

For what it's worth, I don't think deworming on a schedule is *necessarily* a bad thing, so long as your schedule makes sense.  Worms, after all, operate on a schedule..  If anyone here doesn't believe that, all you have to do is go back to about July of any given year and read forward chronologically, making note of the number of posts regarding wormy goats as it goes up and up and up...before suddenly falling off again in October and November.  

Conversely, something that actually makes less sense to me these days is deworming on an "as-needed" basis, because "as-needed" is really just a sugar-coating for being _reactive_.  I mean, if you knew your child was *going* to begin contracting some sort of illness beginning in about late April and would have to struggle with it until the weather turned off cold again, and your doctor said "we could begin treatment now and keep it at bay before it starts showing any signs, but I'd prefer to just wait until it starts getting really bad before we do anything." I can't help but believe that any one of us would seek another opinion ASAP..  

And that's exactly how it works with barberpole worms; they begin picking up larvae as soon as night-time lows consistently stay above 50 degrees or so, and those larvae build and build and build until usually about late July before they start becoming symptomatic in most goats..  But through the use of FAMACHA and a fairly-high FEC 'allowance' as normal, we goat producers have become accustomed to thinking that goats aren't wormy until they actually become get **anemic**.  

It's really pretty crazy when you think about it.

So no, I'm not personally opposed to scheduled dewormings when you know the parasite's schedule.  It actually makes perfect sense to me that we'd begin treating shortly after the night-time temperatures consistently stay above 50 degrees or thereabout to help **PREVENT** goats from becoming absolutely infested by the time summer gets into full swing.

I know that's not what the experts say, but you also have to keep in mind that my state's "expert" was still advocating Cydectin by injection at the label dose well after the SCSRPC reversed their original (and stupid, and short-sighted, and poorly thought out) position.  And according to one email he sent me, he can't spell Valbazen, either...lol


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## Roll farms (Jan 18, 2012)

The problem w/ that thinking, for me, is that only 1-2 goats carry the majority of the barberpole....so it's a waste of chemical on the goats who are healthy enough to fight them off naturally.  I'll spend what I need to to keep my goats healthy, but I'm not going to blow $40.00 a month on ivo / valbazen / etc.  Not to mention the potential rumen upset, etc.

I check mine frequently in warm weather.  I don't wait, and don't believe the FAMACHA system implies that you should wait, until they ARE anemic....frequent checking (or fecals) would show when treatment is needed.

I'm not kidding when I say I have goats I haven't needed to deworm in years.  I can almost promise you that if / when they *do* need deworming, that what I have here to use will work better here than at a 'routine deworming' place, because they haven't been getting it monthly.

If *we* would stop coddling the animals, giving them drugs every time they get a toot crosswise - and oftentimes when they don't, and cull the weak / breed the strong....
we'd ALL have healthier, less-expensive animals.


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## redtailgal (Jan 18, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> If *we* would stop coddling the animals, giving them drugs every time they get a toot crosswise - and oftentimes when they don't, and cull the weak / breed the strong....
> we'd ALL have healthier, less-expensive animals.


Preach it, sister.  I agree wholeheartedly.


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## autumnprairie (Jan 19, 2012)

Thanks Rolls that is what I am striving for my next purchase is a cetrifuge and scope to do my fecals I will still have my vet check to for awhile to make sure I am seeing what I need to.


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## dwbonfire (Jan 19, 2012)

i also want to get a scope. just not sure what make and model to get and still be in my price range. any ideas?

also, do you need a centrifuge? back when i was a tech we would use it more for blood than fecals, though there were times we did. mostly we used those fecal cups and mash around the manure with the fecasol and lay the slide over it, wait 10 mins and take the slide off and read it. the eggs float from the bottom and stick to the glass slide, there was no need for spinning it. that was mainly with dog and cat samples, and some horse samples too. i cant imagine goats or sheep samples would require spinning but correct me if im wrong. i bet a centrifuge is big bucks!


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## cmjust0 (Jan 19, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'm not kidding when I say I have goats I haven't needed to deworm in years.  I can almost promise you that if / when they *do* need deworming, that what I have here to use will work better here than at a 'routine deworming' place, because they haven't been getting it monthly.
> 
> If *we* would stop coddling the animals, giving them drugs every time they get a toot crosswise - and oftentimes when they don't, and cull the weak / breed the strong....
> we'd ALL have healthier, less-expensive animals.


The problem with that thinking, for me, is that if you're relying on FAMACHA, you don't know whether the goats you haven't had to deworm in years are _resistant_ or _resilient_ in regard to barberpole worms.  And there's a HUGE difference.  

What I mean is that you can't know from FAMACHA whether those goats have developed a really strong immune response that attacks barberpole worms (resistant), or whether their genetics are such that they have a kickass hematopoietic system capable of producing blood as fast or faster than ye ol' haemonchus contortus can rob them of it (resilient).  And that matters because goats with kickass hematopoietic systems, if they're not dewormed, can be BARBERPOLE FACTORIES, infecting everything...yet remaining asymptomatic of infestation.

So...unless you're doing routine fecals to distinguish the resilient from the resistant and either keeping them seperated or treating the resilient to ensure that they aren't walking barberpole larvae carpet bombers, then you could potentially be doing the rest of your herd a great disservice.

Having said that, I actually do agree with the notion that the weak should be culled and the strong should be bred.  At the end of the day, that's what animal husbandry is all about.  

And, for the record, I haven't had time to do a lot of 'coddling' lately.  As a result, and despite my best efforts to 'coddle' it back to some kind of order, my own herd has undergone a seriously brutal round of natural selection over the past few months.  What I've found is that when there simply aren't enough hours in a day to work for a living and still manage to _keep goats from being goats_, it's not only the weak and sickly that will be culled out naturally...but also the "intellectually challenged," as well as the offspring (and, therefore, the genetics) of those mothers which do not take to their babies without being hogtied into the corner of a stall.

It's not a pleasant thing to watch happen, by the way.  It's actually quite brutal and discouraging.

BTW...you still cod...er, excuse me, _bottle_ feeding all your babies, or are you culling the genetics of mothers which won't take responsibility for their own offspring?


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## Roll farms (Jan 19, 2012)

Ah, CM - you try trickery....

I bottle feed to prevent CAE and CL transmission to the kids from my positive dams.  My "coddled" kids do fine, both here and when sold.  And the dams, when sold to folks who don't bottle raise, seem to be good mamas.

Resistant or resilient either one makes no difference to me.  I haven't had a truly sick, anemic goat due to barberpole in years (oh yeah - since I stopped scheduled deworming) and they all live together.  I do 2-3 group fecals yearly (in barberpole season) to keep things in perspective.


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