# Starting Herd Size



## Aped (Jul 15, 2009)

So I've begun to collect goats to start my herd. Right now I have a wether and a really nice buck as my herd sire. I will be getting another wether and a doe, perhaps too does in which case I guess I don't need the 2nd wether but I will be taking him anyway. So that will give me say 5 goats, 3 for breeding. 

I only live on an acre of land and currently the boys are locked up during the day then I let then run free around my yard when I get home but in the near future, like right before I get the girls, they will have their own fenced area and so will the girls. So they wouldn't always have the full acre. 

Now I am wondering how many nigerians can one keep on say 1/4 of an acre. How big should my herd be before without crossing the line and going goat crazy, which is bound to happen because it already happened with the chickens,ducks,geese,etc. I mean, I will probably be going from 0 to 5 goats in under a month. I just don't want someone going, you have 20 goats on an acre(or fenced 1/4 acre)?!?

Then the does will kid and I will have more goats. How many do people usually keep in a smaller herd and is it better to have 2 bucks that are unrelated so they don't inbreed so much?

Then there is the question of having a closed herd. When do people decide to do that? I guess inbreeding or linebreeding isn't really a factor if they have everything they are looking for with no faults? 

I tried looking these things up but no one really talks about herd size and inbreeding/close herds in the kind of detail that I am interested in.


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## username taken (Jul 16, 2009)

Number of goats really depends on how much you are willing to feed them. I have 1 acre approximately and I have about 40 sheep and goats on it - standard size. No joke, I have that many, and it doesnt even look crowded. I go through about 500kg hay per week plus 10kg grain per day.


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## helmstead (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm with Username - how many are you willing to feed/medicate/etc?  

As far as linebreeding...I'm not for it.  When you have a common ancestor, say, 3 gens back, that doesn't bother me.  Breeding father to daughter, son to mother...that bothers me.  It'll either work out or go badly...but I don't like what it does genetically most of the time.  I say, change out your buck each season until you have the genetics you like in your does, then buy an unrelated buck to keep as long as you can.


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## currycomb (Jul 16, 2009)

maybe you could find someone close to you and send the girls over for "date week". then you either have different genetics, or don't have to deal with the buck(odor, behavior, etc). we let our neighbor come get our boys when he was ready to breed his does. worked well, he fed the boys(one at a time), and if we need a favor,


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## username taken (Jul 16, 2009)

Thought I would clarify on linebreeding. We use it, in cattle, goats and sheep, and it is a wonderful tool when used correctly. 

Now, linebreeding is breeding anything but directly related animals. So you can breed grandfather to granddaughter, half brother to half sister etc. 

However, when you breed father to daughter, son to mother, that is a direct relationship and the distinction there is inbreeding. 

I practice linebreeding, I dont practice inbreeding. 

A simple way to have a closed herd with linebreeding, if to have two unrelated males. To explain this, I think it will make it easier if I tell you about our cattle. 

We have two bulls, Venturesome and Sarpedon. We split the cows half-half, so that half of them are mated to Venturesome, half are mated to Sarpedon. We take the heifer calves from Venturesome, and they are bred to Sarpedon, and vice versa. Then the heifer calves from THOSE joinings are swapped again, so they are bred back to their grandfather. Hope you followed that ... :/

With linebreeding, you must must must be absolutely critical on your animals. You need to have stronger selection pressure on them, than if you are using outcross genetics. And that means you will need to castrate more buck kids, and designate some doe kids as not breeding quality. Because with linebreeding, you will intensify the good traits, but you will also intensify the bad traits. 

My buck this year is breeding his grandmother ... I cant wait to see those babies, I think they will be something special *crosses fingers*


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## ksalvagno (Jul 16, 2009)

I heard that it is line breeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't.   

Wouldn't you have a bigger and bigger parasite problem the more goats you add to your acre? I think that would be my biggest concern. I guess you would have to sit down and figure out the cost per day per goat. Then you could see how many goats you could afford.

Years ago I figured that out for alpacas. I figured it to be approximately $1.50 per day per alpaca. This included hay, feed, minerals, water, electric, limestone to put in and around the barn, pine shavings for dung areas (alpacas go in one community pile), shearing, wormers and vaccinations. This didn't include any vet work.


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## username taken (Jul 16, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I heard that it is line breeding when it works and inbreeding when it doesn't.


Sorry, but no. It really irritates me when people say this, people who obviously dont know how linebreeding works, and then there are those people who assign human emotions to linebreeding. 

Inbreeding is breeding directly related animals, son to mother, full siblings etc

Linebreeding is breeding animals who are not directly related, half siblings, grandfather to granddaughter etc. 

I'll get off my soap box now


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## ksalvagno (Jul 17, 2009)

Just teasing.

Seriously though, what kind of parasite problems do you have with 40 goats/sheep on 1 acre?


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## helmstead (Jul 17, 2009)

To see a linebreeding program that's well known and works - check out Rosasharn's website.  

With good management, you don't have parasite issues with high numbers on a smaller lot.  Ours are somewhat crowded - nearly 40 goats situated on about an acre currently - and consistent management keeps them healthy.  When we move, we'll have 6 acres of pasture and I am actually more concerned about parasites because of the established pasture (we're on dirt lots now).


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## ksalvagno (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes, I would be too. When we moved to our current farm which previously had horses, I found out that I do have coccidia problems. Every spring my alpacas get coccidia so I have to do the 5 day treatment for  them every spring. They actually don't recommend doing the preventative treatment for alpacas because the parasite tends to build up a resistance to Corid which is the recommended wormer for coccidia in alpacas. So far it is working and the alpacas don't get coccidia at all the rest of the year. Of course they always have some coccidia in their gut which I'm assuming goats probably always have some coccidia in their gut too since they are both ruminents.

I'm trying hard to figure out what of my alpaca knowledge I can carry over to goats and what new stuff I need to learn for goats.


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## username taken (Jul 17, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Just teasing.
> 
> Seriously though, what kind of parasite problems do you have with 40 goats/sheep on 1 acre?


No much surprisingly, as Kate said. 

Three key things: 

- I'm in a very dry area, not much rain = not many parasites
- Basically no pasture, so goats are all hand fed hay and grain - they dont therefore pick up any eggs
- Good parasite management - strategic drenching and pen rotation and spelling is critical


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## Aped (Jul 18, 2009)

Well my main concern with linebreeding/inbreeding is that I did buy my own buck. I still not not have does yet but I had to travel quite a way to get that buck and I will be traveling quite a way to get some does. So borrowing a buck from someone isn't really reasonable for me but I'd prefer not to have to many of them. I figured if I had 3 does and 1 buck I could make it quite a while before I was even linebreeding. Maybe if I could get some bred does fro mgood stock, that might help as well. 

As for how much space I have and how many goats I can put on it,  it really is a space issue and not a cost issue. I know you can keep a lot of goats in a small space but I just want it to be healthy for them. 

And just as an aside, bucks aren't that bad! haha I've been researching goats for quite a while and bucks are made out to be the devil! Well I guess goats do have some sort of association with the devil but they really aren't so bad. Yeah they smell but to me they smell like goat cheese aka one of the main reasons I want goats. Some people like that smell some don't. I believe i am used to it because most of the hard goat cheese I've ever had comes from my family in Italy and they aren't so strict about keeping bucks and does apart. And some people don't like their behavior and pushiness esp during rut. They're just a little more passionate than the does!


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