# Emergency - Kid Stiff as a board and hyperventillating.



## RonHarvey (Mar 14, 2011)

Help please.  Call 843-599-0330

2 week old kid.  was perfectly healthy until out in pasture today.  whole body stiff.  breathing hard and fast.  

Ron


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 14, 2011)

Did someone call him?


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## mistee (Mar 14, 2011)

omg,,, what happened??? update!!!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 15, 2011)

I pray someone has already called you but if not, I sent you a message with our phone number.  Feel free to call at any hour if it is not too late.

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this and hope and pray the little one is fine now and all is well.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 15, 2011)

Thank you for the prayers, but to no avail.  
The kid did not make it.
Will update later.  I'm tired.
Time to milk the girls.

Ron


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## Roll farms (Mar 15, 2011)

Sorry you lost him.  
I have never had a kid with those symptoms, so I didn't know what to suggest.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 16, 2011)

Update:

he was two weeks old and perfectly healthy.
he was a taggenburg and the color was a remarkable silver.  name; Fabulous.
went out with the herd into pasture for the day and was found later.
he was perfectly stiff and could do nothing but breath and holler.
i brought him in and he seemed really hot.  put a damp cloth on his neck and that seemed to help.
after a couple hours his breathing slowed and a while later he finally blinked.  before that he could not even close his eyes.  i had to do if for him every minute or so.  i saw him swallow a few times.
he stayed like this until about 12am when he started to have spasms.
a short while later he stopped breathing.

we suspect a snakebite was the cause.  the pasture is very good but the weather is warmer and the snakes are coming out. 
one friend recommended epinephrine but i had none.

thank you for the prayer and concern.
i am glad to have somewhere to come for advice.

the same day - one premature kid died, one alpine with 2 boer cross kids, one boer dam with one female and one still born.  

Ron


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## Rebbetzin (Mar 16, 2011)

RonHarvey said:
			
		

> Update:
> 
> he was two weeks old and perfectly healthy.
> he was a taggenburg and the color was a remarkable silver.  name; Fabulous.
> ...









That is very sad. 


I will be keeping you in my prayers


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 16, 2011)

Im sorry for your loss...


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## chandasue (Mar 16, 2011)

Whoa! That was a rough day... Hope things are going more smoothly now.


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## elevan (Mar 16, 2011)




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## Our7Wonders (Mar 16, 2011)

So sorry for your losses.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 16, 2011)

I am so sorry.  If at all possible, you may want to keep epinephrine on hand, but I'm not sure if it would have helped in this case or not?  

We have copperheads and rattle snakes here because the DNR decided to release them without bothering to tell anyone.  We live across from 1000 acres where they released the rattle snakes.  The owner who lives out of town got a letter about it well after they released them.  The lawsuit is ongoing and I pray he wins!  And the copperheads are just native to the area.  Needless to say we get to deal with snake bites.  So far none have proved to be deadly but I know it will happen sooner or later.  

Here is a link with info in case it might be helpful:  http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/snakebite.html

The other things I have seen that can cause those types of symptoms is tetanus and brown recluse bites.  Typically the onset is not as quickly severe but I have seen it have a sudden onset like that.  

I do hope all the troubles are behind you and it is nothing but happy goats with growing kids from here on out.

ETA: link and correct wording.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 17, 2011)

Having been given charge of this herd (60+ going on 70 soon) has been a trial by fire.
I've lost a few, but I am dealing with a spiritual matter regarding the man who last was keeping them.
When I took then over, we were getting no milk at all.  Now we are doing about 5 gallons per day from 10 milkers.  We dont push them at all, just grain and graze.

Thanks again for the concern.  When I have a chance I will be back to the forum with some questions.  
Particularly that I have had too many premature kids.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 18, 2011)

Lord have mercy.  The same thing is now happening to the sibling of the one who died the other day.  

The story comes to mind:

1Kings 17:18  And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? 

And so I will do all I can, and see what the Lord will do.

Jer 32:27  Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? 

I will post later the results.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 18, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> The other things I have seen that can cause those types of symptoms is tetanus and brown recluse bites.  Typically the onset is not as quickly severe but I have seen it have a sudden onset like that.


You've actually seen both of those things enough times to have encountered 'sudden-onset' variants of each?  Wow..  I haven't seen either...  

Actually, I only know of one other person on this forum who's ever even seen tetanus, what with vaccinations being so common and effective..  And even that was an isolated case, to my knowledge.  Do you vaccinate with C/D-T??  I thought I remembered reading that you weighed the pros and cons and determined that C/D-T vaccination was necessary for your area..?

And brown recluse bites?...never even *heard* of a goat being bitten by a brown recluse.. Seems it would be really, really uncommon considering a goat's covered in hair.  How many times have you seen this, and where were the locations of the bites on the goats you've seen this happen to?


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## ksalvagno (Mar 18, 2011)

I sure hope things turn out ok with your little one. That is just horrible.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 18, 2011)

That sounds crazy, and makes no sense.

I am sorry you are having to deal with this.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm just throwing this out as a possibilty - perhaps when the poster typed the word *seen* she means that she has read of or heard an account of.  Doesn't necessarily have to mean personal experience.  

Just a thought.  I know I've *seen* and *heard* alot since becoming a goat owner.  Very little of it is first hand experience.


To the OP:  I sure hope you're able to figure out what's going on.  It must be terribly frustrating.  I'm sorry, I have no helpful advice to give but want to let you know that I'm thinking of you.


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## poorboys (Mar 18, 2011)

SO VERY SAD, PUT YOU THRU THE ROUGH STUFF RIGHT UP FRONT, THINGS ALWAYS WORKS FOR THE GOOD WITH THE LORD.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 18, 2011)

the answer to the vaccination question is NO.  We dont use those things.

this one is still alive.  got him to feed from the mother a little.  he has been walking just a bit.  cant bend his legs enough to get up.  when he falls over he stays that way until I get him up.
I have seen him urinate and deficate so I think all the systems are working.  he is still breathing hard...3 breaths per second.  I dont think he can take that much longer.

still hoping.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

White muscle disease can cause stiff legs - at least in the hind legs right?  Can it cause hyperventilating as it progresses?  I don't know anything about WMD, just thought I'd throw that out there, since the kid is eating and eliminating it doesn't sound like it could be a snake bite or any other poison for that matter.  And if WMD is a possibility can BoSe turn it around when it's this far progressed?


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

Here's a link:  http://sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.html   This says rapid breathing and heartrate are symptoms.

I just googled White muscle disease and several of the articles mentioned rapid breathing too.  Because it effects not only the legs but the heart muscle too.  I would get hold of BoSe as quickly as you can and administer it - with it being in both the kids and they're siblings it seems at least a possibility.  I don't know the dose (I'm thinking it was 1/2cc?) but someone on here can let you know for sure.  At this point it sounds like it's at lease worth a try - I don't think it could hurt anyway.

Wanted to add that BoSe is obtainable only by Rx.  Call all the local livestock vets and get some as quickly as possible.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 18, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> BlackSheepOrganics said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I have "seen with my own eyes" both.  I cannot tell if you are contrary by nature or if you just come across that way on here as it is so hard to tell on here without voice inflections, body language, etc, but I do not wish to argue.  If that is not your intent, please accept my apologies.  It's just very difficult to tell.  I'll gladly tell you my experience for what it is worth.

I used to live down in the SW corner of Missouri.While living in that area, I hung out with a husband and wife team of vets whom I "worked" with, mostly for free (they had to pay me something so I could be covered under insurance for liability sake).  I was young, dumb, bored, my husband was rarely home then due to work and we didn't have a herd of children yet.  

The area we lived in was mostly Mennonite and Amish.  Most refuse to use vaccinations as did we for a number of years.  I still do not care for them for the most part for animal or human.  After what I witnessed though, we weighed the pros and cons of it and do use the Tetanus shots as it is necessary there and here (still in the Ozarks....just further north now) unless we choose to risk a rather painful death to the goats.  All 8 of our children were vaccinated for tetanus too.  It made that much of an impression on me.

Anyhow, I did see a couple of instances of tetanus - 2 goat kids and 1 colt.  Not pretty, very painful for the animals, and we do not care to have our animals or children go through that.  

The colt and the goats were being kept in a pen that was too small for them, it was about ankle deep in feces inside of an old shed, and they were in overall bad shape.  The vet I was with that day told me that most likely the colt gave it to the goats because they had just been castrated.  He thought it was in the horse feces and when the goat kids laid down in it, it got up into the wounds.  That was the best guess he could give.  The first time we went out, the colt was dead by the time we got there.  The owner refused testing due to finances.  We didn't see the pen they were being kept in that time.  The 2nd visit though, we did see the pen and since the goats were laying outside of it when we got there, we knew to ask questions and learned that was where they were all being kept together before the colt died.   

By the time we got there the 2nd time, the goat kids were pretty much past helping.  The legs were locked in the oddest way where the front legs were out in front and the rear legs where just oddly placed.  I just remember thinking they looked like they had frozen while urinating due to how their legs looked.  It was like they were frozen, literally and one of them had his neck bent backwards like he was in pain.  They both had a foamy type slobber coming out of their mouth but they couldn't seem to really move their mouth much and they kept choking.  Their little hearts were racing and they were burning up with fever.  Their eyes worked but they couldn't do much with their mouths.  It was a slow and painful death for them.  Again the owner didn't want to pay for testing but let the vet take one of the kids back to try and save him as he was not quite as far along as the other.  He was then able to confirm what it was even though it seemed pretty sure.

When I learned tetanus could be picked up from the dirt, rust, animal feces, even dust, I decided animals and children alike would get the vaccinations in our home.  Those who are against vaccinations, I fully support and I hold no ill will for those who use them.  I just know after what I saw, I will not put one of my babies (animal or human) through that.

As for brown recluse bites, I saw a woman lose several of her goat kids (Lamancha) to brown recluse spider bites.  The lady thought the goats had swollen lymph nodes when she called in a request for a vet visit.  When we got there, the vet thought they were snake bites until looking further at the actual site of the wounds.  The bites were where the skin between the legs and the body meet, kind of up in that skin "pocket".  I don't recall the bites anywhere else but it's been a while now.  The kids seemed stiff and kind of frozen in place but the limbs were not "locked" like they were in the kids who had tetanus.  They did have racing heartbeats but we assumed it was due to panic and/or pain.  Both the doe's kids died as did the kid of another doe.  The doe who was bit lived but only with a lot of nursing.  She had the hair fall out around the area of the bite and the skin basically rotted, died and fell out leaving a crater.  The best we could figure out was that there was a nest of them in the pen in the barn where the woman was keeping them.  Typically they only bite when being squished so it was odd.

I personally was bit a few years back by a brown recluse and wind up in the hospital for a week with a full body rash and the skin slowly rotted out underneath my arm where the bite had been.  We have them here in the boondocks and learn from an early age to shake out clothing coming out of the closet, towels and sheets coming out of the linen closet, etc.  Nasty little critters who should be promptly squished to death upon sight!  I obviously will get no karma points for my views on them.

I sooooo enjoyed that time in life so thanks for letting me share!  Sadly, we have not lived in an area with goat knowlegable vets since then.

Hope that helps.  I have now written a goat tome and I'm blaming you, Mr. GPS!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 18, 2011)

White Muscle sounds like it might be the culprit, but so could so many other things?

A friend of mine lost 9 kids this year before I suggested she give BoSe shots.  She did so for the remaining kids that were born and had no problems with any more of them.  She too had several does carry almost to term and then abort or have still born kids.  We're assuming the selenium deficiency was the culprit.  We had Tissue Mineral Analysis run on 2 of the kids and 2 of the does and sure enough, selenium was low despite her feeding good goat specific block mineral and pretty decent hay and grains.  She switched from block mineral to loose mineral as I have heard the goats cannot get enough of it in block.  No further problems so far.

If you can get hold of BoSe, I think the others might have hit the nail on the head.  It is certainly worth a shot!

We gave 1/2 cc to a newborn kid.  2 cc to a Doe.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 18, 2011)

I looked up the link to White Muscle Disease.  It sounds very close, so at 10pm I found a selenium pill (400 mcg) and 2 vitamin E pills (400 IU each) and mixed them with some goat milk (they did not mix.  Had a hard time getting him to open his mouth in the dark, but I think he got most of it.

Sure hope it was not tetanus, he bit me.  

I will relate the results, if any.

Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.  rom. 14:23


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## RonHarvey (Mar 18, 2011)

here is a picture of Yankee:






At least I hope I have this photo thing figured out.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 18, 2011)

Yankee is a good looking goat!  I sure hope he pulls through for you.  From what I've read, oral selenium isn't as effective but it certainly is worth trying.  

The book "Natural Goat Care" says that often, with selenium deficiency, Vit E alone can make a goat perk back up - it won't take care of the issue for long but may help buy you some time until you can get BoSe.  I'm having issues trying to get hold of some in my area as well - vet wasn't reachable at all and won't be back in until Monday.  

Please keep us posted as to how he does.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 19, 2011)

You should have seen his brother Fabulous.  He had the same color pattern, but he was silver instead of grey.






He was just one day old here.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 19, 2011)

Cute little guy. I hope he does ok for you.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 19, 2011)

I know you're not supposed to call boys "pretty", but he really is very pretty.  I like the color and pattern.

Hope he does well for you.  Please keep us updated.


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## RonHarvey (Mar 19, 2011)

Sorry to say, but the second photo posted is Fabulous, the one that died several days ago.

UPDATE - Yankee is still alive.  I gave him a does of Selenium and Vit E at 10pm and then again at 7am the next morning.  By the time of the second dose he was looking much worse.  Before he could stand and feed from the mother.  By 7am he could not stand on his own and we had to feed him with a tube in the mouth.  He drank almost 100 ml of milk.  I was amazed.  

During the day things got worse.  he got more and more stiff and he had a fever.  He did not urinate until almost 6pm.  I asked God that if he was not going to raise him up to full function then to let him die.  Really did not like seeing him suffer.  Yet he did not die but was not getting better.  considered getting a 22 and putting the episode to an end.  I asked in prayer for the spirit of life to come into him, because he was as close to death as I have seen an animal.  Decided to try to feed him and he drank vigorously.  If that is not life, then I do not know what life is.  

At this point I have put him to bed for the night with the hope that his maker will do right.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 19, 2011)

Well, I'm glad to hear he's still holding on.  It's such a hard thing to see a little one suffer, I'm sorry you're going through this.  If it is truely a selenium deficiency the entire herd may be deficient as well.  It might be a good idea to see if you can get BoSe on Monday from a vet and dose the whole herd, especially any does that are close to due, any other babies may have the same issue.  

I'm a firm believer in the power of prayer - more powerful than anything else we have at our disposal.  I hope he pulls through for you.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 20, 2011)

Hoping for an update!


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## RonHarvey (Mar 20, 2011)

Sadly, Yankee is gone.

As things go, the same morning a 100% Alpine male is born from a sire outside my herd.  Having done all I can do to stand...I will see the salvation of the Lord.

Regarding the selenium shortage...I have made sure that high grade salts are available freechoice (nutri-balance with aragonite and redmond salts).  I am not really convinced that this is the problem, but at least I am now aware of the selenium requirements for goats.  I did know about the need for copper.

Did I mention I am a chemist by training?

I do appreciate the help and the concern and the prayers.  
Thank you.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 20, 2011)

Sorry to hear that.  

I hope you figure out what is going on soon and are able to put a stop to it.


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