# Let's look at our different supplementation practices



## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

This is a sharing thread to list what vitamins, minerals(prescription included), or herbs you supplement with, if you stay away from something and why. What breed, breeds, or cross breeds of goat do you have? Also, please list what state you are in.
No one is wrong here, as these are our individual practices.

* Be friendly and courteous to all members at all times.
* Respect that people may have a different political, religious, philosophical and cultural background than you.


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

So as not to further hijack the other thread 

I'll respond to this here:



			
				Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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First of all let me state that I applaud you for trying to do what is best for your goats.  And that erring on the side of caution is often a very good thing.

Now, let me please respond to your statement:
The supplement companies do indeed attempt at marketing the consumer so as to "get the most bang for their buck" so to speak.  But if I purchased each of those supplements separately the company would get 4.5x the money from me. 
I will also add that the supplements that I take as a human are directed by my doctor....I didn't just decide to take this or that one day.  
A paper by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology  provides some good insight into how certain minerals work together and against each other.
If you look at the Calcium section, it states clearly that Vitamin K (Potassium) works WITH Calcium.  And never does it state that it works against it.

Now, I KNOW that a human is not a goat...so here is my backup for potassium not inhibiting calcium in small ruminants (goats):


> From:  http://www.smallstock.info/info/feedhealth/mins.htm
> Excess potassium is normally excreted from the body (usually in the urine). High intakes of potassium may inhibit magnesium absorption and cause magnesium deficiency.


So it appears that Potassium MAY inhibit magnesium - which has nothing (or little) to do with U.C. in the goat wether / buck but has nothing to do with inhibiting calcium.

I found no evidence to support that feeding a feed with molasses in / on it will indeed increase the risk of U.C. in the goat wether / buck.  Statements by those who are not vets, scientists or researchers do no tend to sway my opinion with something so specifically scientific such as this.

Give me a few moments and I'll post my supplementation list for you...though it is on my feeding thread (see signature for link).


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> This is a sharing thread to list what vitamins, minerals(prescription included), or herbs you supplement with, if you stay away from something and why. What breed, breeds, or cross breeds of goat do you have? Also, please list what state you are in.


OHIO - Central
Breeds: Pygmy, Nigerian Dwarf, Crosses of the two

Probios - As Needed
CMPK (Calcium / Magnesium / Phosphorus / Potassium) - As Needed
Manna Pro Goat Minerals - All goats free choice
Ammonium Chloride (A.C.) - Added to minerals
Molasses - Post kidding does
Electrolytes - As Needed
BoSe - 30 days Pre-Kidding and As Needed
Copasure - 2x per year All goats
Vitamin A & D - All goats / Fall of every year
Red Cell - As Needed

I do not supplement with herbs although there are plenty of herbal plants in the pasture that they browse upon.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

State: New Hampshire
Breed: Nigerian Dwarfs, Pygmys, and Nigerian Dwarf X Pygmys

CMPK - post kidding to does and to kids if they appear weak.

BoSe - once yearly, as we live in a copper & selenium deficient area

Manna Pro Goat Mineral - Multivitamin/mineral given free choice at all times/life stages.

Goats Prefer Probiotic Power(has the highest bacterial flora and vitamin content I could find) - for proper rumen function & over all health

Garlic - natural tick, fly, and mosquito repellant

Mullein(also known as Aron's Rod) - goats are allowed access to this plant at all times, as it helps maintain & strengthen respiratory health.

Raspberry - does are given whole plants to strengthen reproductive system leading up to & during breeding.

Blueberries - for urinary tract health

Papaya - occassionally - as an all vitamin booster - espescially when labor is imminent.

Will edit to add once I find our document detailing our entire list


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> So as not to further hijack the other thread
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> I'll respond to this here:
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Most people are not prescribed vitamin/mineral supplements(which have different ratios of the included vitamins/minerals than store bought ones)... most people just go and pick up a multi vitamin or a specific vitamin thinking they are doing themselves the most good. We all know, that if we ate correctly for our bodies, then we wouldn't need to supplement. (hence why we don't see fat, salt, and sugar supplements  )
In humans, thinking in regard to kidney stones, you, the site & I are all correct. Potassium is working with calcium by slowing calcium's absorbtion rate in the body. In doing this Potassium is helping to prevent the human from developing kidney stones.  With a goat though, if(as it has not been proven scientifically one way or the other) it works the same way, this is not a good thing. Since we goat owners know that our beloved hooved creatures need more calcium. If the potassium slows the absorbtion rate in their bodies, then logically they would not be getting as much calcium as they would without the potassium addition. 

I am going to see if I can find the article/articles that I found previously, so that I can post them here for anyone who is interested.  I know I saw multiple pages, I just can't recall where, and it would require a full day's worht of Google & Bing seaches   Time that I do NOT have today.


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

_Kind of - sort of - off topic but I didn't say that I was taking RX supplements...I said that they are doctor directed.  I still get them off the regular store shelves but he tells me what I need to buy and which brands are accurate in dosing.  And I do eat healthy yet don't absorb nutrients as I should...hence at times I feel like I'm supporting a supplement factory_ 

Anyway...everything I find goes directly against what you're trying to say...what I find says that failure to supply potassium will result in a decreased absorption of calcium.
Potassium only SLOWS the rate of absorption it doesn't inhibit (eliminate) it.  Here's where I believe you're getting your research:


> Kidney stones (in humans)
> Higher potassium intakes may be beneficial in preventing kidney stones formation. Researchers at the Kaiser Permanente Medical Centers in Northern California have found that giving potassium-magnesium citrate to kidney stone sufferers reduces the risk of them developing further stones. The stones were of the calcium oxalate type. In the double-blind study reported in the Journal of Urology, 64 patients were given either a placebo or the potassium-magnesium citrate compound for up to three years. New kidney stones occurred in 63.6 percent of the patients taking placebo, but in only 12.9 percent of those taking the potassium-magnesium citrate compound.4


These are the types of UC found in goats:


> TYPES OF CALCULI
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> Urinary calculi can be of various types. If a goat develops and is treated by a vet for urinary calculi, insist that the stones be sent for analysis. Further treatment and prevention may depend upon what caused the problem.
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Most "stones" found in the goat are believed to be Phosphatic Calculi.  And even my vet believes that the Calcium based Calculi is extremely rare in goats and more common in mismanaged sheep.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

Okay  , I am asking that you re-read what I have posted in regard to the correlation between giving goats moderate-high potassium level food stuffs and the development urinary calculi.
In doing so, I believe you will realize that what you just stated _is_ what I have been trying to get across all along. 

Goats are supposed to have a higher intake of calcium, than phosphorus. Hence why we always see it posted cah.

Potassium, as you yourself(and *I*) have posted, SLOWS the absorbtion rate of calcium.
In humans this is good, in goats it is not good.

If you feed goats something with a moderate to high level of potassium(Molasses or bananas), is it not, then, logical to assume that the goats will not be retaining as much calcium as they would if they had not been fed something with a moderate to high level of potassium?

If then, their calcium intake level is decreased due to this effect from the potassium, then wouldn't it also be logical to assume that their ratio of calcium to phosphorus could either become 50/50 or worse, more in favor of phosphorus(which we all know would put them in danger of developing UC)?

I understand that higher calcium in a human's diet causes kidney stones, and that higher phosphorus than calcium in a goat's diet will cause UC.  I have not stated anything contradictory to this fact.

I have been using the human example to show, that at least in humans, potassium does in fact slow the absorbtion rate of calcium, and that Vitamin D(which I mentioned _could_ be supplemented for those who want to feed sweet feed or molasses) increases the absorbtion rate of calcium.

It is the opinion of Livinwright Farm, that we should feed our animals the most frugal & efficient way we can(obviously without endangering their health).  In this effort to be as frugal as possible, we would rather not spend the extra money to supplement with AC and/or calcium(a point I _tried_ getting across on the other thread).  Others may be able to afford this added cost in doing what they feel is best for their farm... we cannot.

Edited to add, So it is clearly stated for everyone reading this thread:
If other famrers have the money for feeding the sweet feeds, molasses misted hay, and/or bananas on more than a treat basis, and are willing to spend the extra cash for supplementing to correct the potential imbalance in the cah ratio... then obviously,  good on 'em! It is their choice, just like choosing to save money in reducing the odds of UC by not feeding these items to my males is mine.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 8, 2011)

Livin....   I think the point here is that even if you were going to feed a sweet feed, and lets say hay misted with molasses, there is not enough molasses to do any harm.  The article from the other thread stated ---  If you were feeding "pure molasses" it might be a concern.    A feed and/or hay with molasses is a long shot from "pure molasses".  This is a non issue.  

   Tell me more about your supplementation.  Where do you get all the raspberry plants?


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

One tablespoon of molasses (498mg of potassium) is slightly more than 1 entire banana.  Did you know that only 2-3 Tablespoons of molasses are added to an entire 50# bag of feed?  Not enough to make a difference imo.

Let's agree to disagree on this one


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

How do you get your goats to eat garlic?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Tell me more about your supplementation.  Where do you get all the raspberry plants?


Please post what vitamins, minerals, or herbs _your_ farm supplements with! 

Our 6.5 acre property and surrounding areas are loaded with wild raspberry! we literally CAN'T kill the stuff... it always comes back up in the spring, and seems to double or triple when it does!  I love this fruit as much as anyone, but goodness, when it is invasive, it's INVASIVE!


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

Send some of those raspberry plants my way!    I walked around my field and came back with 5 berries!!!  Not worth the walk.  I am anxiously awaiting the ripening of the blackberries that are loaded and still green.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 8, 2011)

- ADM meat maker loose minerals

 - Copper bolus 2x/yr

 - Selenium 2-3x/yr


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jul 8, 2011)

Oops wrong thread. Will come back and write my own soon.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Let's agree to disagree on this one


Completely agreed!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm moving this since the discussion was continued over here: 



			
				n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

As Elevan stated, Let's agree to disagree on this one 

This is not something that has been scientifically proven one way or the other when it comes to goats. So, it is pointless to bicker points on the subject.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jul 8, 2011)

Supplements:

Free Choice:
Thorvin Kelp- this replaces a standard mineral mix. I avoid them (standard mineral mixes) as much as I can because I prefer to give my goats whole food minerals, which are much more easily absorbed and used by the body. The Kelp also chelates out heavy minerals and excess minerals that are not used, so if the research I have read is correct my incidences of UC, and arthritis should be much lower then if I was to use a standard mineral mix and not chelate.

Supplemental: (* indicates a herbal mix that I buy from www.firmeadow.com)

All:
Garlic- at first sign of illness.
GI Sooth*- at first sign of loose stools, and given to kids as a cocci preventative on an as needed basis (wet conditions etc)
Comfrey- rich in minerals and great for healing
Kop-Sel*- Copper and selenium supplement. Given in fairly large doses until all signs of deficiency are gone, then given weekly as a supplement. Last month of pregnancy does receive double portions.
DWorm  BWW*- Dewormer. Given on an as needed basis following instructions. I tell if it is needed through FAMACHA guidelines.
BetterDaze*- Given to goats who are not thriving and need some TLC. (I have not actually bought this yet, but will be very soon)
Cayenne Pepper- Given when goats seem chilled, and daily during the winter to help prevent frostbite since I live in extremely cold conditions.
Echinacea Tincture- Immune system boost for when garlic alone is not enough.
Apple Cider Vinegar- I give this usually in their grain because I don't think they get enough when it is put in their water. ACV does so much I don't know where to start! The thing I <3 it for the most is that it helps them easily adjust to new diet changes. There have been several incidences where I have had to do a 100% diet change with no gradual change at all. I gave them plenty of ACV and they never had a problem.
BS Molasses- Mostly used as a bribe to get my goaties to take their herbal formulas, but it is also high in iron and certain nutrients. I am currently trying to find and organic source of sulfured molasses since I have read that the sulfur is very important for proper rumen health. Adequate quantities of sulfur is supposed to completely prevent ketosis? or was it enterotoxemia. I cannot remember sorry. 

Does: 
Red Raspberry leaf- Great tonic that helps the reproductive organs. When given during pregnancy it helps tone the muscles and ready the organs for giving birth.  Also helps the immune system.
Ewe-Tur-N*- Given the day of birthing to help does to have an easy birth, minimize tearing and expelling the placenta quickly. Also helps prevent excessive bleeding.
Black & Blue Cohosh tincture- Used to start labor if needed or to restart delayed or slowed labor.

Bucks:
Still need to do some research but I hope to come up with some that will help with stamina, viability of sperm etc.

Kids:
Pretty much same as adults.

*If you've read my blog listing for my herd practices you'll notice I do a lot less now then I did before! I need to update my blog!


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## Goatmasta (Jul 8, 2011)

n.smithurmond would you be so kind to post your supplementation practices?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> - ADM meat maker loose minerals
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> - Copper bolus 2x/yr
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> - Selenium 2-3x/yr


could you please share the why's for your use of & number of times you use the copper & selenium supplementations?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> It is the opinion of Livinwright Farm, that we should feed our animals the most frugal & efficient way we can(obviously without endangering their health).  In this effort to be as frugal as possible, we would rather not spend the extra money to supplement with AC and/or calcium(a point I _tried_ getting across on the other thread).  Others may be able to afford this added cost in doing what they feel is best for their farm... we cannot.
> 
> Edited to add, So it is clearly stated for everyone reading this thread:
> If other famrers have the money for feeding the sweet feeds, molasses misted hay, and/or bananas on more than a treat basis, and are willing to spend the extra cash for supplementing to correct the potential imbalance in the cah ratio... then obviously,  good on 'em! It is their choice, just like choosing to save money in reducing the odds of UC by not feeding these items to my males is mine.


Weeelllll... except that those may not be the only two choices.  The third option is that you might be able to feed items with molasses and not spend money on extra supplement because there _ isn't actually _ an imbalance created by the small amount of extra potassium.  I personally don't feed anything that contains added molasses and give molasses only post-kidding, BUT I think it's unfair to say that folks who feed sweet feed, molasses misted hay, etc are choosing to be unwise with their budget and correcting with supplements.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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You are obviously unwilling to see the fact that I have stated multiple times that it is each farm's choice to feed and spend as they wish, and obviously it doesn't matter to you how I state it, you are still going to take an issue with it, so please respect this thread by stopping your commenting here, if all you are going to comment is on the dropped topic of potassium. Thank you.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

With the exception of free choice mineral, BoSe, and copper bolusing I don't really supplement.  Our goats' diet consists of good quality alfalfa, good quality grass hay, fresh browse, beet pulp, and 16% dairy ration.  I've found that a solid foundation of good nutrition means that you don't have to add a whole lot to keep the goats in top health.  We used to feed BOSS, but found there really isn't a need for it in our herd.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> With the exception of free choice mineral, BoSe, and copper bolusing I don't really supplement.  Our goats' diet consists of good quality alfalfa, good quality grass hay, fresh browse, beet pulp, and 16% dairy ration.  I've found that a solid foundation of good nutrition means that you don't have to add a whole lot to keep the goats in top health.  We used to feed BOSS, but found there really isn't a need for it in our herd.


Curious... why do you give a copper bolus in addition to the BoSe?


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2011)

BoSe isn't copper, so I'm guessing that's why she also gives copper.  And I feed a sweet feed (the only dairy feed at my mill) and I've never had any issues with calcium or hypocalcemia.  I also choose not to feed alfalfa pre-kidding because I agree with the thought that feeding low calcium diets prior to kidding helps prevent hypocalcemia.  Every cow dairy I've worked on also does this...feeds low calcium diets pre-freshening.  

And I would like to see the discussion continued.  Nobody was being rude, so I don't see why we're "not allowed" to talk about certain things.  After all, this thread is about supplements and you keep saying over and over how nobody is wrong...right?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I also choose not to feed alfalfa pre-kidding because I agree with the thought that feeding low calcium diets prior to kidding helps prevent hypocalcemia.  Every cow dairy I've worked on also does this...feeds low calcium diets pre-freshening.


My goat vet's background is in dairy cattle and he subscribes to the same idea.  His argument when he explained it to me made perfect sense but in discussing it with other goat folks there is quite a bit of disagreement on whether the same holds true for goats.  His suggestion was that the drop in alfalfa only needs to be for a couple weeks prior to freshening in order for the body to "relearn" mobilization.  It'd be an interesting discussion because there are lots of producers on the other side of that as well.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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Yeah, it's a big debate.    I really feel it's the same with cows and goats.  All through our Anatomy and Physiology classes in college our professors drilled into our head that the mechanics of bodies are not different between species.  The same hormones/chemicals etc do the same thing whether it be humans, dogs, goats, etc.  I know there are some differences between species, but not when it really comes down to the inner workings.  In fact, our text book in our physiology class was a HUMAN physiology text book because it had better pictures and more information than what was in animal physiology books.  And our anatomy professor always talked about how vets don't really need to learn a crazy amount of different stuff to treat different species, because although there are lots of differences with some things, the mechanical workings are all the same.  

And I think holding back on calcium for a few weeks prior to freshening would definitely do the trick!


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> And I would like to see the discussion continued.  Nobody was being rude, so I don't see why we're "not allowed" to talk about certain things.  After all, this thread is about supplements and you keep saying over and over how nobody is wrong...right?


Take the discussion to my feeding thread if you want to continue it...if someone starts the discussion over there I'll copy and paste all of my commentary to it and we can talk     Link is in my signature.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> And I would like to see the discussion continued.  Nobody was being rude, so I don't see why we're "not allowed" to talk about certain things.  After all, this thread is about supplements and you keep saying over and over how nobody is wrong...right?


This thread is for people to post what vitamins, minerals, and/or herbs they supplement with and why they do that. It was not started to beat a dead horse. All people(including me) who had been discussing/debating the topic of potassium had started repeating themselves to a point where it no longer felt like a learning discussion but more like a bashing of my farm's beliefs, where people kept stating that our belief is "unfounded" and a "non issue". This is why I chose to end to that discussion by restating what Elevan said, which was "Let's agree to disagree". IE enough was enough, no need to restate our positions/beliefs over and over. Obviously, no one is going to change the other's mind as to how they feel about the issue... and I don't ask that anyone does.
Again, as stated in the first post: 





			
				Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> This is a sharing thread to list what vitamins, minerals(prescription included), or herbs you supplement with, if you stay away from something and why. What breed, breeds, or cross breeds of goat do you have? Also, please list what state you are in.
> No one is wrong here, as these are our individual practices.
> 
> ** Be friendly and courteous to all members at all times.
> * Respect that people may have a different political, religious, philosophical and cultural background than you.*


If any members want to start a different thread and quote from this and the other thread to carry on the whole "what does or doesn't affect the cah ratio" topic, then by all means, please do. I just don't want it carried on further in this thread.
Also, I do respect that N.Smithurmond, Elevan, Helmstead, Goatmasta, and others do not agree with my farm's view on it.


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright - I hope that you didn't take anything that I said as "bashing your farm's practices".  I took your comment in the previous thread as an invitation from you to move to this thread for the discussion. I obviously mistook you and for that I apologize (publicly).  Mineral supplementation is something I feel pretty well versed in for personal reasons and I'm always up for a good debate...gets the "grey matter" all juiced up.  I obviously pushed too hard in asking you to back up your position and again I am sorry.

_I agree...Livinwright obviously started this thread for a different purpose...and we've agreed to disagree here on the Ca / K topic...but I still extend the invitation for civilized debating on my feeding thread on any feeding related topic._


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## Goatmasta (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Goatmasta said:
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Copper -  Fish tail, rough coats, poor appetites, hard keepers, are just a few of the indications of copper deficiency.  After catching up on copper in a goat, their color will change, my experience is that it normally changes drastically.  It is pretty easy to tell when they start going back down, the color change is very evident.  We have found that boluses 2x/yr keep the majority of our goats right where they need to be.  

  Selenium - Weak kids I believe is how we first noticed the selenium deficiency.  The selenium is a touchy thing, too much is bad, and too little is bad.  It used to be that we would have a doe kid and it would take the kid 15-30 mins to start nursing.  We just thought this was normal.  It isn't.  After we started giving the regular selenium doses it is a rare thing if it takes more than 7-8 mins for a kid to be up on its feet and nursing.  They are so much stronger and thrive so much better it is unbelievable.  The selenium dosage varies from doe to doe here so the dosage I stated would be an average.

  There is this whole thing about "living in a deficient area" and quite frankly I don't buy it.  The bottom line is that I have seen goats from all over the US and most of them are deficient to the eye.  I understand the idea of buying local hay and it may have more or less of each of these in it whatever the case maybe.  However, goats require an amazing amount of both of these and the idea that one lives in a deficient area based on soil samples and dosing accordingly just makes no sense to me.  I certainly haven't had to buy any topsoil to replace the topsoil in my pens due to the goats eating loads of dirt.  I believe that once we domesticated goats they probably became deficient because of diet, and we are so far down the road of domestication that the odds of changing that are slim to none.


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## Roll farms (Jul 9, 2011)

> Be friendly and courteous to all members at all times.





> You are obviously unwilling to see the fact that I have stated multiple times that it is each farm's choice to feed and spend as they wish, and obviously it doesn't matter to you how I state it, you are still going to take an issue with it, so please respect this thread by stopping your commenting here, if all you are going to comment is on the dropped topic of potassium. Thank you.


I don't care how many times you put "please" and "thank you" in a sentence like that, it's NOT being courteous.

What I read in that is, "If you can't agree w/ me, I'll make you take your toys and go home b/c this is my thread."  

:/


I supplement w/ copper (rod bolus and sulfate drench), BoSe, ADM Goat Power mineral, Manna Pro Probiotics, Kelp in winter, and various other things if I feel it's needed at the time (vit. E to a weak kid, Zinc if a coat looks bad, etc.).


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 9, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> > Be friendly and courteous to all members at all times.
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## freemotion (Jul 9, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Zinc if a coat looks bad, etc.


Would this help my curly and patchy coats, new this year?  If so, details, please!  Although two of the does are smooth now (mother/daughter, interestingly, and both blondes) and the other two (mother/daughter also, both dark brown/black) are not...the daughter is quite curly and the mother has thin patches along her spine.  I did copper bolus and everyone got BoSe before kidding and a round of Red Cell.


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## Roll farms (Jul 9, 2011)

I dunno, but I don't see how it could hurt to try. 
I gave it to Penny when she was having that wierd bald patch thing going on...but since I also used Witch's Brew on her, I can't swear which it was that helped...but something did!
I used the 'people' zinc tabs, they dissolved in water real easy...squirted it down her throat...3 the 1st time, then 2- 3 days later, and 1 or 2 a week since then.  She's looking verrry goooood right now.

I believe Kate suggested zinc in Penny's thread, said that they can have absorption issues w/ that too, like copper.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 9, 2011)

We are pretty boring, but I will state mine.

Bo-se 30 days before breeding and then we flush does for 2 weeks prior to breeding with corn and goat pellets. To encouraging multiple births. this year we had a 200% live birth rate, but we have had years near 230% birth rates. 

Bo-se 30 days before kidding to help prevent weak kids. Really really helps, with those long leggs boer/nubian crosses have. 


We just did copper bolusing this spring, to help with barber pole worms, so far we have been pretty happy with the results.  


We keep out loose minerals year round free choice.  

Our show animals get topped dressed with a 30% protein pellet and ensure drink, we buy the walmart generic ensure. and work the animals up to 1 can a day before the show.


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