# Proper etiquette when handling problems with breeder



## msjuris (Nov 26, 2010)

I need advice from people who raise goats, breed goats, sell goats and love goats.  I'm treading unfamiliar ground and am not sure how to proceed.

In March 2010 I purchased my first goats, two nigerian dwarf dairy goats.  Despite the "breeder" having registered them with the AGS, neither were tattooed as required by the AGS.  I was led to believe that they were tattooed and was very upset to find that they were not.   Additionally, neither goat was actually bred/birthed by the breeder.  The breeder had obtained them from other herds out of the area.  Even though they were born within a week of each other, there was a big difference in their sizes.  One was much smaller and was just getting over a cold.  I named them Boo and Teeny.

They both did very well under my care and the smaller one (Boo)got healthy and finally caught up to Teeny in size and spirit.  Not knowing another source, I returned to the same breeder for stud service in October.  Each doe was to be bred to a different buck, whom I had selected to compliment the individual doe.  I dropped the does off with the understanding that the breeder would call me when the deed was done.  I checked in after 5 days and was told that "luckily" Teeny was bred to her buck, because the buck had just died that day (note that this was untrue, the goat had dies several days earlier).  Another week later, I received a call saying Boo had been bred.  

Here's where my concern comes in, when I went to pick up the does, the buck service record provided by the breeder (who was not present when I picked up the goats) indicated a date of service prior to when I dropped the goats off.  The reason she did this was because the buck that died, died within 24 hours of my dropping off my goats.  Also, when I picked up the goats, Boo was very sick.  She had mucous coming out of her nose, she was weezing and goopy, cloudy eyes and lacked the energy and spirit she usually had.  The breeder said it was normal, even though Boo was the only one who got sick.  I incurred $180 in vet bills to treat respiratory and ocular infection in the one goat.  Just to show you how she treated me in particular, I had driven an hour and a half, oneway to pick up the goats.  She was not there, never called to say something came up and never showed up.  I waited for three hours before making the 1 1/2 drive back home without my goats.  When she finally called, her excuse was that she was called to pick up her sick sister from school and just didn't think she needed to call me to reschedule or let me know she wouldn't be there. So I had to drive back the next day to pick them up.

Since having the does home, Teeny has had two heat cycles indicating she is not pregnant, which is consistent with the fact that she only had less than 24 hours of exposure to the buck.  Boo is today displaying signs that she is in heat including a discharge.  

I'm not sure what to do.  I don't know if I should even bother taking the goats back to this person because she has, in my opinion proven that she is untrustworthy and unreliable.  Plus I don't want Boo getting sick again.  

Do I have any recourse against this breeder?  Should I chance taking the goats back, if the breeder even offers a second breeding? Should I just chalk it up as a learning experience and just wash my hands of this less than reputable breeder?

What are your thoughts?


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## Hollywood Goats (Nov 26, 2010)

I had a similar experience, I bought 2 Nigis, one of them it turned out had mastitis did not produce milk in one teat and the other is doing pretty well.
I sold the first one to a friend for $60 because he has a lot of land and she will be treated nicely for eating weeds.
I really needed another goat and this "breeder" was the only one near enough to me with goats for sale so I bought a second one from her and arranged to have her bred before I brought her home.

After 2 weeks she finally said that she was ready so I went to get her and one of the workers said that she had only been with the buck for 3 days! needless to say she went into heat 3 days later, so I brought her back, I hope she was bred but she can back with lice and gave it to my other goat and now I am having trouble getting rid of it even though I dusted them both.

your breeder is dishonest and will never change if you can find someone else for breeding that would be much better.


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## ksalvagno (Nov 26, 2010)

I would NOT take your girls back to this woman. Is the AGS registration of your does complete and in your name? As far as tattoos, I would just have someone re-tattoo them. Sometimes if they are tattooed very young it does fade. All you have to do is have them tattooed with the proper numbers and letters.

Did you already pay the woman for the breedings? Have you tried calling her since you have found that both girls are open? If you have paid her and can get hold of her, I would ask for my money back. More than likely you won't get it but it can't hurt to try. More than likely you will have to chalk this up to a learning experience. You can also call AGS and see what they say about recourse when someone has lied about the buck service memo. I'm not sure they can do anything for you. I haven't been in goats too long but it seems like there isn't the recourse that you can take against a breeder like there is in the alpaca world.

I would see if you can find anyone else in your area. Go to NDGA and ADGA and AGS and look for Nigerian Dwarf breeders in their directories. Obviously you are willing to drive a decent distance. Anyone who treats customers like that shouldn't be in business and I have to admit I would probably let others know my experience with that breeder (but what you do with that is up to you).


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## msjuris (Nov 26, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> Ishe can back with lice and gave it to my other goat and now I am having trouble getting rid of it even though I dusted them both.
> 
> your breeder is dishonest and will never change if you can find someone else for breeding that would be much better.


I'm sorry for your experience, but you've given me something to be greatful for, at least mine didn't come home with any parasites.

I think I might just have to buy a buck this spring, so I don't have to worry about this type of thing any more.


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## ()relics (Nov 26, 2010)

First, I am a boer goat person so keep that in mind, but most registrys follow common rules.  The goats that you originally bought are probably not the animals that match the paperwork that you recieved.  More than likely the breeder simply switched some other animals paper to the does you bought.  Surprisingly it happens all the time, not surprisingly the registering association find this practice ground for expulsion.  I would immediately call the breeder and tell them you are going to call the registering association to express to them the treatment and possibly fraud commited by them.  The misinformation on the service memo is grounds for the breeder to be tossed out of the association.  If he/she comes clean and admits they have mislead you then I would get all the money refunded for any goat or services that you have ever recieved from this person and be done with them.  If they remain unchanged, I  would immediately call the AGS and speak to someone there, laying out exactly what has happened with the possible sale of mis-marked/not marked animals and the intentional misinformation on your service memo.  
Again I know nothing about dairy associations, but if you had this problem with a boer goat and called the ABGA or USBGA they would be VERY interested and my bet is the breeder would be immediately put on probation and possibly banned from registering new animals...possibly even DNA testing to determine exactly how dishonest the breeder actually was with previous buyers.
Breed registries are established so Responsible breeder can maintian and improve their breed.  They are based on trust between breeders, naturally when there is money to be made some breeders, or crooks, prey on the unsuspecting/trusting buyers...That is why I am sure the registry would REALLY like to here your story and see your phony paperwork...
It seems you may have fallen for the old bait and switch trick...Now you have to make this breeder regret cheating you....Post their farm name here, I'll bet someone knows something about them.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Nov 26, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Anyone who treats customers like that shouldn't be in business and I have to admit I would probably let others know my experience with that breeder (but what you do with that is up to you).


You have to be careful what you write/say because of defamation laws (although technically the claim has to be false to be considered libel or slander) but word of mouth can be a powerful thing.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Nov 26, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Post their farm name here, I'll bet someone knows something about them.


I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that as long as you're writing provable facts then you have NOT committed libel.


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## msjuris (Nov 26, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I haven't been in goats too long but it seems like there isn't the recourse that you can take against a breeder like there is in the alpaca world.


So true.  I contacted AGS when I learned that they had been registered without being tattooed and they basically said that they have no way of enforcing that policy and that they leave it up to the member to be honest about it.

I've learned my lessons in dealing with this breeder.  Unfortunately, the only recourse according to AGS is to request a second breeding, however, I'm not sure if I'm willing to take the risk of leaving my does in her care.   

I posted because I thought maybe I was looking at the situation as an outsider (since I'm new to owning goats) and that maybe this was the norm for transactions like these.   Its good to know that this isn't the norm and that if I'm more cautious next time around I might find a reputable breeder I can continually give my business too.

Thank you.


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## ()relics (Nov 26, 2010)

if this breeder, in fact, filled out a service memo with the wrong dates FOR ANY REASON, They have commited fraud and would be banned from the breed association...IMO...As the owner of the doe, if you could prove the dates that your animal was on the breeders farm, then you would be Participating in a fraudulent act when you registered the kids from this breeding....That is why I would contact the registry...by turning your head you are as guilty.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Nov 26, 2010)

You mentioned they weren't bred by the owner- did she use her herd name on the registrations?


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## ksalvagno (Nov 26, 2010)

If all you do is unemotionally tell of your experience with the breeder and make sure you are just stating fact about only your own personal experience, there really is nothing that person can do. I have let others know in the past about alpaca breeders but it is simple fact and expressing only my experience.  Sometimes people just need to know.


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## msjuris (Nov 26, 2010)

Thank you all for your imput.  It is my belief  that both goats were registered properly and the AGS processed my transfers of ownership for both.  After my first experience with the AGS and their handling of the lack of tattooing, I felt that any attempt to find recourse through them would be a waste of effort.  However, I think, ()relics is right and I should pursue the issues with this breeder with the AGS.  She is a registered member and as such has agreed to be bound by their regulations.  If she wants to continue as a member, she should conduct her business according to the standards set forth by the association.  

As for proof of her falsifying the stud service memo. I have email back and forth agreeing and confirming the date the goats were being dropped off; an email telling me an incorrect date of death; web postings indicated the actual date of death; and the stud service memo showing the incorrect service dates beginning prior to the date of drop off and ending on the date of death.  I can prove she lied on the stud service memo.

I can't prove that my goats are the goats registered with the AGS.  I can only "trust" that her business practices are merely untrustworthy and not maliciously deceptive. 

I was completely in love with the goats from the moment I picked them up.  They are worth every penny spent because they are part of our family now.  As for a business investment, I can't in good conscience sell their offspring as registered pure bred because of the doubts about their identity.  So much for starting a herd with quality stock.  

Again, thank you all for your imput, you helped me decide what I need to do.


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## ThornyRidge (Nov 26, 2010)

just an fyi on the tattooing.. dark eared animals are nearly impossible to read tattoos on once they have grown and that lovely green smear of ink disappears... you could try holding a flashlight behind (oustside of ear) shining thru to inside to double check the tattoo.  Not standing up for this woman or anything but I know there are some crappy tattoo kits on the market that don't seem to do the job and unbeknownst to the person could think they are tattooing and really just pricking ears with some dye.  also double check that they would not be tattooed under tail web.. not common at all in nigies but worth a look see.  hopefully you will get things straightened out.  not all of us breeders are like that.. to prevent future problems if you have the space consider picking up a good buck to use yourself.  saves so much hassle of transport and false breedings.. not to mention you save yourself the worry of what parasites or disease you could be exposed to!  As far as the tattoo.. if they are not tattooed and you have the registration paperwork and have checked it out with AGS.. as mentioned before you could do it yourself..sometimes you may be in for a long battle with little to no recourse.. obviously don't get goats or breedings from this person again!


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## rebelINny (Nov 26, 2010)

Well not sure where you are located but...........if your anywhere in western MA or eastern NY......I know a woman who has GREAT nigerian bucks  I get a few of my standard Alpine's bred to one or two of her bucks every year to make my mini-alpine's. Good luck on finding a new breeder, definitely don't use this woman again she is not worth her weight in salt.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 27, 2010)

What a terrible experience..Im sorry. Personally I would not bring them back to get breed by the women.  And try to prove the dates and get her out of the orginazation in the least.  She should'nt be allow to register and make profits off this fraud.  She should'nt even own them if shes gonna have them that sick and not care for them either.    I would definately get your name clear from this mess.  

I am happy to hear the goaties are better and they are healthier in your care.  Thats a blessing.  Definately a learning experience on your part.


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