# Could it be?  Love at first sight!



## soarwitheagles (Jan 26, 2016)

I have never had a pet or animal that gave birth while in my care.  This was the first...

Been reading about lambing for months...very diligent, very thorough...but not so sure anything can really prepare one for such an adventure.

Also, not so sure we did the right thing.

Woke up this morning, shower, shaved, ran out the door to feed the sheep and drive to work...only one problem...well, not really a problem, more like a miracle...

There was a beautiful newly born lamb [I think it was just a few minutes old] right in our very own little sheep pen!  Mama was still licking the lamb clean.  I tip toed close enough to make sure it was still alive, then off to work I had to go.  You know the tune...hi ho, hi, it's off to work we go...

I did manage to look at the mama and lamb as often as I could at work using my phone app with the HD IP cameras...

And here is where I think we need help.

I rarely saw the lamb attempt to suckle the teats on the ewe and when the lamb did, it only tried for a couple of seconds...

This did not seem good...

Raced home after work, and it appeared as if the lamb's tummy wasn't full but, maybe empty.

Captured mama after running around for one full hour [we separated the lamb, hoping mama would go to lamb in pen...no go].  Mama cried the entire hour...was kinda heart wrenching.  Finally captured mama, and but her on her back.  She was totally uncooperative.  Squeezed the teats...no or very little milk.

Squeezed the udder, then the teats much harder, then boom!  Large streams of milk jetting out.  I think this may have been the wax plugs that I have read so much about.  But baby would not suckle when we put her next to mama's teats...

Finally out of frustration and a major time constraint, let both of them go.  They went and laid down together in the manger...the rest of the flock outside enjoying the stars right now.

Not so sure what else to do now.

Haven't seen much at all of lamb sucking milk and very little of the wagging tail.

Hoping things will change by tomorrow.

Wow, never realized this endeavor could be so darn stressful!

Showing the pic of lamb and mama right after birth.

Looks like love at first sight, but not so sure...

Help us if you can!

Soar


----------



## norseofcourse (Jan 26, 2016)

Catch the lamb and put your finger in its mouth.  Is it warm?  It's eating.  If it's cold, that's not good.

A lamb that isn't drinking enough will try to nurse a lot, have sunken in sides, not much energy.

I've only had a dozen lambs, but some of them only seem to take 'sips' of milk every so often, and others drink longer. Just because they only sip, doesn't mean they aren't getting enough.

Edited to add: the little one looks cute!


----------



## babsbag (Jan 27, 2016)

The lamb is adorable. *She needs colostrum*. If you can't get the lamb to suckle then you need to milk out the ewe and get a bottle with a pritchard nipple on a 16 oz. plastic coke bottle. You are right about the wax plugs. You might need to catch the ewe again (sorry, I understand hard, I have a few of those) and pen the ewe or tie her up against a wall or feeder and get that lamb under there, point it in the right direction, stick the teat in its mouth, all that stuff. It can be a long ordeal at times but if the lamb was trying earlier then it will probably figure it out if the mamma doesn't chase it off.  Sometimes you have to hold them for a few days but you must must must get colostrum into that baby. It is not unusual for a lamb to nurse frequently for just a few seconds when they are young; goats do the same.

Do check the mouth though and never try and feed a lamb that is cold, they can't digest the milk. Hopefully by morning it will all be solved.


----------



## Latestarter (Jan 27, 2016)

Congrats on your new addition! Very pretty ewe and lamb. I don't have sheep, so can't really help, but I'll be wishing you the best and hope all works out well.


----------



## Sheepshape (Jan 27, 2016)

Lovely ewe and lamb.

It sounds as though the wax plug may have been blocking the teats. Sometimes you can have milk on the teats, a lamb, clearly hungry under it, but it won't suckle....very frustrating. If the lamb is cold, warm her up first and then pen up mum and lamb in a confined area....they usually suck. Try getting the lamb to suck your finger and then transferring her mouth to the teat. If the lamb has become tired but is warm, then milking the ewe and bottle feeding (or tube feeding) is a good starter, she'll probably suck herself soon after.

Good luck.


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 27, 2016)




----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 27, 2016)

Congratulations on the baby!! Cute!
How are baby and momma doing?


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 27, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> Catch the lamb and put your finger in its mouth.  Is it warm?  It's eating.  If it's cold, that's not good.
> 
> A lamb that isn't drinking enough will try to nurse a lot, have sunken in sides, not much energy.
> 
> ...



I would like to begin by saying the people at this BYH forum are so incredibly kind and helpful!  Thank you so much everyone for your kindness and patience with newbies like us!

Norse,

I caught the little lamb this morning just before running off to work.  Stuck my forefinger into the little girl's mouth a couple of inches...boy was I thankful because after a few seconds I realized her mouth was like a battery operated heated winter glove!  So this was such good news and really cheered me up for the day!  Yes, this girl is sipping, not slurping...so perhaps I had wrong expectations...finally, she keeps walking all over the place, then will take some long naps.



babsbag said:


> The lamb is adorable. *She needs colostrum*. If you can't get the lamb to suckle then you need to milk out the ewe and get a bottle with a pritchard nipple on a 16 oz. plastic coke bottle. You are right about the wax plugs. You might need to catch the ewe again (sorry, I understand hard, I have a few of those) and pen the ewe or tie her up against a wall or feeder and get that lamb under there, point it in the right direction, stick the teat in its mouth, all that stuff. It can be a long ordeal at times but if the lamb was trying earlier then it will probably figure it out if the mamma doesn't chase it off.  Sometimes you have to hold them for a few days but you must must must get colostrum into that baby. It is not unusual for a lamb to nurse frequently for just a few seconds when they are young; goats do the same.
> 
> Do check the mouth though and never try and feed a lamb that is cold, they can't digest the milk. Hopefully by morning it will all be solved.



Thanks again babsbag!  Never realized we are not to feed a cold lamb.  Last week Amazon had heated cat beds on sale for half price...now I wish I had picked a few of them up!  Mama and baby are doing fine now.  They appear inseparable, and mama keeps nudging baby to drink, and baby is drinking now.



Latestarter said:


> Congrats on your new addition! Very pretty ewe and lamb. I don't have sheep, so can't really help, but I'll be wishing you the best and hope all works out well.



Latestarter, thank you for your kind words!



Sheepshape said:


> Lovely ewe and lamb.
> 
> It sounds as though the wax plug may have been blocking the teats. Sometimes you can have milk on the teats, a lamb, clearly hungry under it, but it won't suckle....very frustrating. If the lamb is cold, warm her up first and then pen up mum and lamb in a confined area....they usually sucks. Try getting the lamb to suck your finger and then transferring her mouth to the teat If the lamb has become tired but is warm, then milking the ewe and bottle feeding (or tube feeding) is a good starter.
> 
> Good luck.



Thank you Sheepshape.  Now I know what to do in the future should we have some more of these challenges.  Your post is incredibly helpful.



promiseacres said:


>







BlessedWithGoats said:


> Congratulations on the baby!! Cute!
> How are baby and momma doing?



Thanks for asking Blesssed with Goats!  All is well for now.  Both mama and baby appeared well this morning.  I will do my best to give a positive report later today!  Also, two more ewes' udders are filling up super fast...so I have a feeling we will see some more lambs real soon.  What an udderly fantastic adventure!


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 27, 2016)

Yay!!  I'm glad they're doing well!


----------



## norseofcourse (Jan 27, 2016)

Glad the little one is doing well!

Did mom pass the placenta?  I've read that vigorous nursing helps produce more of the hormones they need to cause contractions that expel the afterbirth.  My first ewe didn't pass the afterbirth, and my personal theory is that her lamb (who only ever took tiny sips) didn't nurse hard enough and was part of the reason she didn't pass the placenta.  The vet gave her antibiotics and she's had two successful lambings since, with good nursing lambs, and she's passed the placenta.  Anyway, just some ramblings that hopefully you won't need to worry about.


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 27, 2016)

Blackbelly cross? Or Painted Desert??


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 27, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> Glad the little one is doing well!
> 
> Did mom pass the placenta?  I've read that vigorous nursing helps produce more of the hormones they need to cause contractions that expel the afterbirth.  My first ewe didn't pass the afterbirth, and my personal theory is that her lamb (who only ever took tiny sips) didn't nurse hard enough and was part of the reason she didn't pass the placenta.  The vet gave her antibiotics and she's had two successful lambings since, with good nursing lambs, and she's passed the placenta.  Anyway, just some ramblings that hopefully you won't need to worry about.



Great question norse!  But I have no clue if the ewe passed the placenta.  I thought it automatically occurred during the birthing process!  Oh boy!  Now I am not sure what to do.  I was hoping the mama ate the placenta.  Is there anyway to find out?  Maybe I could check the security footage which will actually show the birthing process.  I will check the footage this evening.

I am posting the pic of the ewe and lamb that I took this evening.  They both appear very healthy, but the ewe does appear kinda fat [we thought she would have twins or triplets].

Not sure what to think or do now.

Soar


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 27, 2016)

promiseacres said:


> Blackbelly cross? Or Painted Desert??



Promiseacres,

Oh no!  The rancher who sold these pregnant ewes to us assured us these were all purebred American Blackbellies...without any cross breeding involved.  I hope there weren't any wild oats sown here!

What's your thoughts on this matter?

Please share with us!


----------



## babsbag (Jan 27, 2016)

So glad they are doing well, that is great news.


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 27, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Promiseacres,
> 
> Oh no!  The rancher who sold these pregnant ewes to us assured us these were all purebred American Blackbellies...without any cross breeding involved.  I hope there weren't any wild oats sown here!
> 
> ...



To my limited knowledge Blackbellies generally are not spotted... but the little one could work well with a painted desert program. You might check the American Blackbelly association  website


----------



## Baymule (Jan 27, 2016)

Awwww........ You have a grand-lamb! Boy or girl?? Have you looked?  Get out there and lift that tail up! Such a cutie, yes it's love at first sight.  Congratulations. I hope all your lambings are as easy as this one. Isn't it amazing, you put them up at night and the next morning, there is the miracle of birth. I am so happy for you, you are on your way now.


----------



## norseofcourse (Jan 27, 2016)

The ewe passes the placenta after the lamb(s) are born.  Usually within a few hours.  I"ve heard some sheep will eat it, but mine haven't - although I pick it up and dispose of it.  At first they look like they're passing a long rope-like thing, then it looks like a mass of reddish/pinkish tissue.  Never pull on it, it should come out on its own.  Sometimes I have to dig through the bedding to find it, if I wasn't there when it passed.

She probably passed it, if not you'd likely see something partly hanging out. I think retained placentas are not real common, I just like to watch for it because it did happen that one time here.

They are both looking very nice!


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 28, 2016)

babsbag said:


> So glad they are doing well, that is great news.



Yes, and we are so happy!  Thanks again for all your excellent posts and info!



promiseacres said:


> To my limited knowledge Blackbellies generally are not spotted... but the little one could work well with a painted desert program. You might check the American Blackbelly association  website



Thanks promiseacres!  I did read about the traits and breed standards and now I realize our little AB lamb is disqualified!  Oh my!

Here's a portion of the breed standards:

*The color of the animal is highlighted with contrasting black underparts, extending down the inside of the legs. Black markings on the nose, forehead, and inside of the ears are typical of the breed. The main body color can vary from light fawn through brown to reddish brown to dark mahogany red. White, other than in the tip of the tail, is a disqualifying trait.*

Tonight I will purchase some brown and black paint from Home Depot and take care of the white spots!  


Baymule said:


> Awwww........ You have a grand-lamb! Boy or girl?? Have you looked?  Get out there and lift that tail up! Such a cutie, yes it's love at first sight.  Congratulations. I hope all your lambings are as easy as this one. Isn't it amazing, you put them up at night and the next morning, there is the miracle of birth. I am so happy for you, you are on your way now.



Thank you Baymule,

Yes, we did look and then discovered we have a wonderfully healthy female lamb.  So this is good news.



norseofcourse said:


> The ewe passes the placenta after the lamb(s) are born.  Usually within a few hours.  I"ve heard some sheep will eat it, but mine haven't - although I pick it up and dispose of it.  At first they look like they're passing a long rope-like thing, then it looks like a mass of reddish/pinkish tissue.  Never pull on it, it should come out on its own.  Sometimes I have to dig through the bedding to find it, if I wasn't there when it passed.
> 
> She probably passed it, if not you'd likely see something partly hanging out. I think retained placentas are not real common, I just like to watch for it because it did happen that one time here.
> 
> They are both looking very nice!



Thanks for the info.  I will check the video footage as soon as I have a chance and see what happened to the missing placenta.


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 28, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Tonight I will purchase some brown and black paint from Home Depot and take care of the white spots!


Lol!! 



soarwitheagles said:


> Yes, we did look and then discovered we have a wonderfully healthy female lamb. So this is good news.


Aww! Congrats! Will you be keeping her?


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 28, 2016)

Thank you BWG!  To be honest, we are not sure what we will do with all the new lambs.  We were hoping to build a stronger, healthier, more numerous flock, so it is possible we will keep her.


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 28, 2016)

Nice!  How many more ewes do you have that are expecting? We have 5 goats expecting to kid Lord Willing, starting in April!


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 28, 2016)

Mama has white on her back legs also. Maybe you just need to invest in a pd ram. Many herds have Blackbelly as their base. Or send her to me, I like the spots.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 28, 2016)

BlessedWithGoats said:


> Nice!  How many more ewes do you have that are expecting? We have 5 goats expecting to kid Lord Willing, starting in April!



Wow!  5 expectant goats!  You will soon be very busy!

Presently we have 12 ewes [if we count the two dorpers] and one AB ram.  All of the AB ewes are suppose to be pregnant.



promiseacres said:


> Mama has white on her back legs also. Maybe you just need to invest in a pd ram. Many herds have Blackbelly as their base. Or send her to me, I like the spots.



LOL, but you cannot eat the spots!

May I ask what is a PD ram?  And perhaps we are suppose to cull sheep that do not make the breed standard?  I just may smell some July-August lamb roast in the future...


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 28, 2016)

Painted desert,a breed similar to the AB but spotted. If you're just raising for meat no spots do not matter. (But around me they sell easier) PD are a newer breed. Main thing is horns on rams, spots and hair. They allow other non polled breeds to be registered if they meet the standerds.


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 28, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Wow!  5 expectant goats!  You will soon be very busy!
> 
> Presently we have 12 ewes [if we count the two dorpers] and one AB ram.  All of the AB ewes are suppose to be pregnant.


Aww, neat! Best wishes for a Blessed rest of your lambing season!


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 28, 2016)

promiseacres said:


> Painted desert,a breed similar to the AB but spotted. If you're just raising for meat no spots do not matter. (But around me they sell easier) PD are a newer breed. Main thing is horns on rams, spots and hair. They allow other non polled breeds to be registered if they meet the standerds.



Promiseacres,

Thank you for the clarity.  I have never heard of painted desert sheep, so I went to the Painted Desert Society's website.  Wow, what a beautiful sheep!  So much variety!  I will have to do more research on these sheep.  



BlessedWithGoats said:


> Aww, neat! Best wishes for a Blessed rest of your lambing season!



Thank you Blessed with Goats and same to you!!!


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 28, 2016)

Thank you!! Only about 2 months before my first doe is due... I'm so excited!


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 28, 2016)

BlessedWithGoats said:


> Thank you!! Only about 2 months before my first doe is due... I'm so excited!


My ewes will be due in april.


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 28, 2016)

Neat!! We might have lambing/kidding around the same time! My first is due April 4th I believe!


----------



## babsbag (Jan 29, 2016)

If I were going to own sheep I would be looking at the PD sheep, I really like eye candy. 

My goats start to kid this weekend, 8 the first go around and then another 15 or so in March and a few stragglers all the way until June. Busy is an understatement.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 31, 2016)

If you are breeding for meat only, keep the ewe lamb. If breeding to breed standard, then you can keep her, slaughter her lambs so you don't breed the white into your flock, or sell/slaughter her for your consumption. It is your flock, your future lambs, only you can make the call if the white spots matter on not. I know breeders that have registered ewes along with unregistered ewes. They keep a registered ram and can sell registered breeding lambs, or unregistered lambs for meat. Either way, it is a win-win.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 31, 2016)

Ok, thank you for sharing these ideas...

I am beginning to think more and more along the lines of finding a good deal on 10-20 Dorpers at the local auction, then isolate them for the 30 day quarantine, then start a new flock.  I just found out the ABB require 12-18 months for a lamb to obtain eating weight, whereas the Dorpers only need 3.5-4 months...wow, what a difference!


----------



## Latestarter (Jan 31, 2016)

Quite a few folks do a mix of Dorper/Katahdin for the meat, flavor and fast growth. I believe that's what I'll be doing when my sheep time comes. I guess much will depend on what's available where I end up sinking roots.


----------



## Ferguson K (Jan 31, 2016)

The ABs require a lot more work, but, aren't they a heritage? 

Gorgeous lamb. Love the white! Like Bay said, your flock your decision.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Jan 31, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Quite a few folks do a mix of Dorper/Katahdin for the meat, flavor and fast growth. I believe that's what I'll be doing when my sheep time comes. I guess much will depend on what's available where I end up sinking roots.



LS, the more and more I read, the more and more I like the Dorper!  *The Dorper is the fastest growing, heaviest-muscled hair sheep breed in the U.S.*

Yes, I have heard of the Dorper/Katahdin and did some reading on it too.  Is this version you are speaking of called the "DorperX?"  I have been reading up on this crossbreed.  Very interesting and kinda makes me wanna go in that direction:

*Among the hair sheep breeds, Katahdin x Dorper is the most popular cross. In this cross, the parasite resistance, better shedding qualities, and higher reproductive rate of the Katahdin is balanced with the superior growth and muscling of the Dorper.*

I like the combo!



Ferguson K said:


> The ABs require a lot more work, but, aren't they a heritage?
> 
> Gorgeous lamb. Love the white! Like Bay said, your flock your decision.



Ferg,

Thanks for sharing, but I have been told repeatedly that the AB's require the least amount of work of all the other sheep breeds!  I was attracted to this AB quality so much that I decided to start our first herd with them!

I am beginning to lean more and more toward the Dorper/Dorper X combo...

I believe I can pick up some good deals on Dorper lambs for around $55 per head [that is what I paid for our first two Dorpers].  So I believe I will be in the market for 10-20 Dorpers....depending upon how many sheep our pastures can feed...and pasture question is what I am trying to figure out now.


----------



## Latestarter (Feb 1, 2016)

I think the "X" simply means cross, not necessarily what it's crossed to. So it could be a cross with anything, not specifically katahdin. Used to just generically state that it's a Dorper cross rather than a pure bred. I really like that combo as well (Dorper/Katahdin), for the reasons you outlined.  

If you have the time and space, you could pick up that group of 10 or 20 Dorpers, then split them into two herds and breed one with a Dorper ram and the other with a Katahdin ram and judge by their offspring. Then you'll be able to document growth rates, as well as being able to select the best of the existing Dorper ewes to keep for future breeding and hold back the best cross lambs to improve your overall stock as you proceed.


----------



## promiseacres (Feb 1, 2016)

$55! Dorper around here go for $200+... I am have considered getting some katahidn ewes for the same reasons. Though the pd meat is yummy.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 1, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I think the "X" simply means cross, not necessarily what it's crossed to. So it could be a cross with anything, not specifically katahdin. Used to just generically state that it's a Dorper cross rather than a pure bred. I really like that combo as well (Dorper/Katahdin), for the reasons you outlined.
> 
> If you have the time and space, you could pick up that group of 10 or 20 Dorpers, then split them into two herds and breed one with a Dorper ram and the other with a Katahdin ram and judge by their offspring. Then you'll be able to document growth rates, as well as being able to select the best of the existing Dorper ewes to keep for future breeding and hold back the best cross lambs to improve your overall stock as you proceed.



LS, Awesome ideas and thanks for clearing up the Dorper X mystery.  I especially like your idea of splitting the herd of ewes and trying two different rams.



promiseacres said:


> $55! Dorper around here go for $200+... I am have considered getting some katahidn ewes for the same reasons. Though the pd meat is yummy.



Well, here, on CL, I found the Dorpers as low as $100.  But at the local auction, they can go as low as $55 for the small lambs, but much more expensive for the larger Dorpers.

The problem with purchasing at the local public auction, is, that you do not know what you are getting.  I purchased the two Dorpers more out of uneducated zeal and foolishness...and paid a fairly high price for my ignorance:  These two Dorpers infected a portion of our flock with the highly contagious pink eye and it took a lot of work to kill this infection.

Now I know that most smart ranchers do not dare purchase from the public auction [I discovered the large majority of people purchasing the sheep in the public auction are butchers...they simply purchase and then slaughter the animals within hours or days].

Now my understanding is, if I do purchase from an auction, I should quarantine the sheep for a minimum of 30 days, and maybe even hit each animal with an antibiotic or oxi tetracycline. 

I am thinking if I can pick up 10 or more Dorper lambs for under $70 each, it may be a good investment.


----------



## Ferguson K (Feb 1, 2016)

Soar, I would definitely quarantines anything coming from an auction for a minimum of 30 days. Separated buckets and areas of the farm would be optimal. They come on contact with so many other animals in their journeys..  It just doesn't seem safe. 

We would probably quarantine ours on our section of the property across the street if we brought anything in from auction. We already keep anything " new " away from everyone for as long as possible.


----------



## Baymule (Feb 1, 2016)

@Latestarter I just happen to know a really nice ranch between Canton and Athens, Tx that sells Dorper/Katahdin crosses........


----------



## Baymule (Feb 1, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> I just found out the ABB require 12-18 months for a lamb to obtain eating weight, whereas the Dorpers only need 3.5-4 months...wow, what a difference!



Which is exactly why I have Dorper/Katahdin crosses. I would have preferred pure Dorper, but these were too good of  a deal to pass up. I am now looking for a Dorper ram, to put the butts on the lambs.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 20, 2016)

promiseacres said:


> $55! Dorper around here go for $200+... I am have considered getting some katahidn ewes for the same reasons. Though the pd meat is yummy.



Yes, even though I paid very little for our Dorpers at the auction, today I spoke to a local Dorper rancher and she quoted me $300+ for registered Dorper lambs...I nearly fainted!  I almost could have purchased 5-6 for that price!  Wow!




Ferguson K said:


> Soar, I would definitely quarantines anything coming from an auction for a minimum of 30 days. Separated buckets and areas of the farm would be optimal. They come on contact with so many other animals in their journeys..  It just doesn't seem safe.
> 
> We would probably quarantine ours on our section of the property across the street if we brought anything in from auction. We already keep anything " new " away from everyone for as long as possible.



Thanks again Ferguson!  We are presently doing our best to create several paddocks...7 for now.  So hopefully we can keep one paddock for isolation/quarantine purposes...but the work is taking much more time than I ever dreamed of...first the thinking and planning on where to section off the pasture, then pounding the t-posts, then stringing the fencing, putting in the post and gates...man, I sure have been sore from all the work and I am not even 10% done yet...still have 2000ft. plus to install.

Whew!


----------



## Latestarter (Feb 20, 2016)

Wow, that sure is a price difference aye? Maybe tell her you'll take her culls at 1/3 the price? I feel your pain on the fencing... my time is coming to have to deal with it. Just keep plugging along, you'll get there.


----------



## purplequeenvt (Feb 21, 2016)

As tempting as it is to get culls at a lower price, if you are wanting to breed quality animals, don't settle for the rejects. Save your pennies and start smaller. Build your flock on strong animals. 

Buying lambs at an auction is one thing, but I would avoid purchasing adult ewes. They are most likely there for a good reason. They may not breed or have had other issues such as prolapses or mastitis.


----------



## promiseacres (Feb 21, 2016)

Also be patient! Livestock in general can usually be found more cheaply in the fall.


----------



## sadieml (Feb 21, 2016)

Daddy always said, "If it's worth having, it's worth working for and waiting for."  True dat.

Sometimes you get a great deal because someone is looking to make a living, not a killing; usually, too good to be true is just that.  We have little money to spend, and I do intend to check out the local auctions (one in 2 weeks, actually) for a couple of laying hens already producing to tide us over til the chicks I'm about to buy reach 5 mos or so and start supplying our egg needs, but I know that any hen I get for cheap is gonna be on her way out.  People just don't sell good, YOUNG layers for cheap.  Any hens we get at auction will be named "Broiler, Fryer, and Roaster".  You know what I mean!  And for our goatie needs, we're making friends and trying to work out breeding deals, etc..  I don't want to become a famous breeder or anything, and visualize a very small, self-sufficient farm, but I still want the best quality I can afford.  In the long-run, I know it will be worth it, registered or not.


----------



## Latestarter (Feb 21, 2016)

Wasn't implying that anyone should buy garbage animals or somebody else's problems...  But if she's breeding and selling show quality, gold plated, platinum lined, Dorpers... her culls are probably "only" cut crystal quality... still leaps and bounds above what can be anticipated at auction...


----------



## Baymule (Feb 21, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Thanks again Ferguson!  We are presently doing our best to create several paddocks...7 for now.  So hopefully we can keep one paddock for isolation/quarantine purposes...but the work is taking much more time than I ever dreamed of...first the thinking and planning on where to section off the pasture, then pounding the t-posts, then stringing the fencing, putting in the post and gates...man, I sure have been sore from all the work and I am not even 10% done yet...still have 2000ft. plus to install.
> 
> Whew!



When I was building fence, I could barely drag myself to the house. Several times I drove the car to the chicken coop to feed them, which is about 80 feet from the house.....


----------



## Mini Horses (Feb 21, 2016)

So, Latestarter is right about the "culls" of show quality farms.   One of the greatest heifers I ever bought was from such a farm.  She just wasn't "as large" as they wanted & their herd was winning blues at every Fair, show, event!   We're not talking major issues with an animal, just not up to the highest standards of that breeder. 

As to registration -- that is not always the best mark of the highest quality animals.   Know why you want the animal and what you will do with it.  My GRADE Saanen doe milks like a Holstein, personality of gold, her daughters are the same and just a wonderful  little herd.    My Nubians (purebred & minis) are registered but, not any better for my purpose than Ivory.  If I were still raising for broader sales, for show animals, I'd be more intent on registered only.  But quality animals can be non-registered ones.

Registration has benefits for following bloodlines, shows, and breeding for herd improvement -- generally commercial for meat/dairy livestock.   But that piece of paper doesn't otherwise  mean much if all you want is a lamb to butcher or a goat to milk & a friend to hug.  I'm not knocking registered animals -- made plenty from my horses, Boer goats, mini donks and I not only registerd but DNAd for proof of parentage.   I can just see/understand both sides...depends on use. 

Just paid huge amount for pure bloodlined chickens....for breeding.   Will sell offspring far less per bird but, gotta have the "base" to get what I need to have to produce more for "that" market.  All livestock decisions need to be made for "purpose" of our own use and goals.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 21, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Wow, that sure is a price difference aye? Maybe tell her you'll take her culls at 1/3 the price? I feel your pain on the fencing... my time is coming to have to deal with it. Just keep plugging along, you'll get there.



I am wondering if she would even consider it.  I suppose there is no harm in asking!



promiseacres said:


> Also be patient! Livestock in general can usually be found more cheaply in the fall.



Yes, that is exactly what a local rancher told me!  But a friend of mine who consistently goes to the local daily auctions told me he is still find deals at $50-$85 per lamb.  Sheep auctions here are every Friday.



sadieml said:


> Daddy always said, "If it's worth having, it's worth working for and waiting for."  True dat.
> 
> Sometimes you get a great deal because someone is looking to make a living, not a killing; usually, too good to be true is just that.  We have little money to spend, and I do intend to check out the local auctions (one in 2 weeks, actually) for a couple of laying hens already producing to tide us over til the chicks I'm about to buy reach 5 mos or so and start supplying our egg needs, but I know that any hen I get for cheap is gonna be on her way out.  People just don't sell good, YOUNG layers for cheap.  Any hens we get at auction will be named "Broiler, Fryer, and Roaster".  You know what I mean!  And for our goatie needs, we're making friends and trying to work out breeding deals, etc..  I don't want to become a famous breeder or anything, and visualize a very small, self-sufficient farm, but I still want the best quality I can afford.  In the long-run, I know it will be worth it, registered or not.



We too are on a super tight budget.  After all is said and done, we will be over $4000 into this "project."  My original goal was to purchase some sheep as "lawnmowers."  Now the purposes of these sheep have bloomed just like our apricot trees in the spring.

Here are our new purposes for our lovely sheep and now I am not so sure all our purposes will come true:

1. Mow lawn/fields.  I was spending 5+ hours per week mowing the fields each spring for the last two years.  Was becoming a bit boring...
2. Have a nice pet. But most of them run away from me [even though I brush my teeth and use good deodorant].
3. Have lots of healthy babies so we can sell some and recoup at least some of our initial investment, and, maybe, sometime in the distant future, make at least a tiny bit of money.
4. Provide lamb roast every once in a while.
5. Emergency food-provide real life meat should/if/when the crap ever hits the infrastructure fan in the USA.
6. Lower risk of fire in the forest.  Our back forest is a super fire hazard.  I was hoping these sheep could clean it up a little.
7. Provide adventure.  I have served in over 30 different nations and I like adventures.  I wanted to try something new.  I like reading a lot, learning new things, and embarking upon new adventures.


Latestarter said:


> Wasn't implying that anyone should buy garbage animals or somebody else's problems...  But if she's breeding and selling show quality, gold plated, platinum lined, Dorpers... her culls are probably "only" cut crystal quality... still leaps and bounds above what can be anticipated at auction...



I like your thinking!



Baymule said:


> When I was building fence, I could barely drag myself to the house. Several times I drove the car to the chicken coop to feed them, which is about 80 feet from the house.....



LOL! I thought I was in fairly good shape until the day after pounding in many, many t-posts with a super large modified post pounder...Now I no longer have to go to the gym every day...because I have my own personal gym right here!



Mini Horses said:


> So, Latestarter is right about the "culls" of show quality farms.   One of the greatest heifers I ever bought was from such a farm.  She just wasn't "as large" as they wanted & their herd was winning blues at every Fair, show, event!   We're not talking major issues with an animal, just not up to the highest standards of that breeder.
> 
> As to registration -- that is not always the best mark of the highest quality animals.   Know why you want the animal and what you will do with it.  My GRADE Saanen doe milks like a Holstein, personality of gold, her daughters are the same and just a wonderful  little herd.    My Nubians (purebred & minis) are registered but, not any better for my purpose than Ivory.  If I were still raising for broader sales, for show animals, I'd be more intent on registered only.  But quality animals can be non-registered ones.
> 
> ...



Well stated and incredible insights that you offer here MH!  I can see you have your system incredibly well thought out and your purposes are clearly defined in each animal category.  I like the way you think.  Thank you for sharing your insights.

I never plan on going to a show, I am not trying to come up with a super sheep, and just wanted to dip my little toe in the water called back yard sheep flock.  Now I am beginning to discover the water is much deeper than I ever realized...same thing happened when I started beekeeping...there is so much more involved than meets the uninitiated eye...

I suppose I can honestly say that I am discovering that hands on experience leads to much greater revelation and illumination [my fancy way of saying my bubble has popped, my head has been rapidly removed from the clouds and my feet have been rudely planted back down on planet earth, all of which has led to a radical paradigm shift: Raising sheep is really, really hard work!

Oh my!


----------



## norseofcourse (Feb 22, 2016)

Latestarter might be onto something.  Instead of asking for the 'culls' of the local Dorper rancher (which could include sheep culled for reasons you wouldn't want them either), perhaps you could ask them if they have older ewes they might let go at a discount.  If they are willing to help you choose well, you could get a ewe or three with a few more productive years, and grow your flock with some nice offspring.  The Storey Guide to Raising Sheep talks about doing this, too.


----------



## Mike CHS (Feb 22, 2016)

Just a suggestion but we find there is a pretty big difference in the taste between the Dorper and Katahdin but I don't know if there is a difference in the Dorper cross.  We have always liked lamb/mutton but until last year we had always got it from the store (which is usually from New Zealand around here and not hair sheep).

Since we are getting our place ready to raise our own sheep we thought it might be a good idea to buy some to make sure we liked it.  We first bought and processed a Dorper lamb then bought a mature Katahdin for processing.  The Dorper was good but the Katahdin was milder.  Of course that all depends on what they are fed but these were both grass fed only and in roughly the same geographic area.


----------



## Latestarter (Feb 22, 2016)

So ideally, I guess with the cross we'd be looking for the heavier frame weight of the dorper with the milder taste of the katahdin?


----------



## Bossroo (Feb 22, 2016)

Traditionally the top three University as well as competition taste tests were won by the purebred standard Southdown, then Suffolk and Hampshire.  Since the Dorper arrived to the US it too has competition taste tested right along and often beaten these three.  Taste of any meat is basically in the animal's fat, the more fat marbling among the muscle fibers then the fat cover the better the taste.  Then when one adds hormones and age -a ram (male sheep- the more mature the stronger the taste ) one gets stronger flavor while the weather ( castred male) and the ewe ( female) will have a milder flavor.  A lamb under 9 months of age ( preferably 5 months old when butchered)  will have a much milder taste than one that is older / more mature. The body structure  and muscle mass  of the Dorper will give more edible cuts of  meat per carcass weight.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 22, 2016)

Ladies and gentlemen,

Very informative again!  Thank you for sharing!   I think those Southdown, Suffolk and Hampshire are wool sheep and they also appear terribly ugly.  We were hoping to stick with the hair sheep.  Found a lady an hour north of us selling Dorper lambs for $120.  She said they will be ready in 60-90 days...after having been weaned.

Any thoughts on this possibility?

PS Ok Bosspro, I was only joking about Southdown, Suffolk and Hampshire being terribly ugly...but they do appear a little uh, different...


----------



## promiseacres (Feb 23, 2016)

It would be worth checking 


soarwitheagles said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> Very informative again!  Thank you for sharing!   I think those Southdown, Suffolk and Hampshire are wool sheep and they also appear terribly ugly.  We were hoping to stick with the hair sheep.  Found a lady an hour north of us selling Dorper lambs for $120.  She said they will be ready in 60-90 days...after having been weaned.
> 
> ...


----------



## Latestarter (Feb 23, 2016)

For an hour drive? Absolutely worth it! I'll bet you've driven longer than that many times, for things a lot less "important", I know I certainly have... If she's asking $120 per, she may well give a discount for a large purchase (if she has that many available)... I know many folks who do that. Takes all the stress out of their need to sell.


----------



## Bossroo (Feb 23, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> Very informative again!  Thank you for sharing!   I think those Southdown, Suffolk and Hampshire are wool sheep and they also appear terribly ugly.  We were hoping to stick with the hair sheep.  Found a lady an hour north of us selling Dorper lambs for $120.  She said they will be ready in 60-90 days...after having been weaned.
> 
> ...


From an economic point of view and to have the best chance to make a profit ... If I were you, I would sell off my current flock then I would buy as many quality Dorper ewe lambs ASAP from this lady as I could by locking them up with a deposit NOW .  I would ask for her breeding records, health and vacceen records and  a quantity discount too.   For a  top quality ram as he is ONE HALF of your herd, I would buy a well conformed and well muscled weaned ram lamb that you could find as described in the breed standards . Get a health certificate from the seller to cross State Lines in addition to their other herd  records ... google/ check out the Dorper sheep Ranches in Oregon. They are not that far away in the scheme of things.    Example: Lewis White Dorpers has some very good ones as a large breeder who got their start from Australian genetics through AI .


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 23, 2016)

Thanks again for excellent advice!  Ok, I contacted two of the Dorper sheep ranchers and they have more than enough for me to purchase.  Going price for ewe lambs is $120.  Actually, the drive is 2.5 hours away...still worth it for good stock.  She is sold out as of today, the other rancher has over 60 lambs ready to go...some still being weaned, but will have 10 for sure within two weeks.

So I suppose I have a lot to think about now...

I believe for at least 2-3 months, I will have way too much pasture for my other 15 sheep, so this may be a good decision to keep the pastureland mowed for the next few months and give the sheep some good body weight...

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## Mini Horses (Feb 24, 2016)

I'll add this thought to those "millions" you already have --

The current herd could be maintained -- since you have ample pasture -- get a ram that will be old enough to re-breed them & sell as bred ewes, or ewes with lambs on side, or sell lambs & ewes once weaned -- to maximize the amount you get from them.     Then, you would have the "new" ones you are considering but, probably your full investment from those you currently have.

Unless you find a market now, who wants ewes with lambs on side, I would consider this.   They will mow for you while there!   It is great that you have pasture to maintain them while you decide &/or find a good market.

And, I AGREE the ram is ONE-HALF of your herd.  Buy an awesome one.  This investment will improve most any lamb quality.   Oh-- buy one of those ram shield things to put on him, stay safe.   If a young one, handle daily to tame/train to handle.   All young stock will remain calmer as adults if they are mellowed to handling as babes.


Isn't farming fun???


----------



## Bossroo (Feb 24, 2016)

Out of the 60 lambs ... just how many are ewe lambs ?  I would put a deposit down NOW to get your pick of the ewe lambs or buy them NOW !   Are your pastures irrigated ?  If not , the grass and clover will go dormant and the remaining standing forage will have lost it's nutrition value.  So , there will be a need to buy 2nd or 3rd cuting alfalfa hay as that hay will have the highest nutrition value.  The best time to sell your other 15 sheep is now as the potential buyer has forage on their pasture too and would be willing to take advantage of the growing pastures. When the pastures go dormant , the potential buyers drop off as they would have to buy hay.


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 24, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Out of the 60 lambs ... just how many are ewe lambs ?  I would put a deposit down NOW to get your pick of the ewe lambs or buy them NOW !   Are your pastures irrigated ?  If not , the grass and clover will go dormant and the remaining standing forage will have lost it's nutrition value.  So , there will be a need to buy 2nd or 3rd cuting alfalfa hay as that hay will have the highest nutrition value.  The best time to sell your other 15 sheep is now as the potential buyer has forage on their pasture too and would be willing to take advantage of the growing pastures. When the pastures go dormant , the potential buyers drop off as they would have to buy hay.



Hi Bossroo!

The gentleman stated he could easily give me 10 lambs of either male or female.

I like your thinking.  Now I must weigh all considerations and make a decision!

Thanks again!


----------



## goatgurl (Feb 24, 2016)

I also looked at the ABB breed when I decided to raise sheep but ended up with katadhins instead.  like you I didn't like the amount of time it takes for them to mature.  and  I agree with baymule that a katadhin/dorper cross is great but the guy I bought from has awesome sheep and I've just stuck with the purebreds from him.  just thought I would throw my two cents worth in as far as taste.  I have raised katadhins for the last 4 years and had an almost two year old ram that I needed to replace as i had several of his daughters.  now I love lamb but really don't care for mutton so I was really hesitant to butcher him but the breeder that I bought him from insisted I would like the meat.  long story short, I couldn't tell the difference between the taste of the 2 year old ram and the spring lamb.  I was amazed.  so I can't you what a pure dorper will taste like but can attest to the mildness of the katahdin.  I just keep a small herd for myself and my family with a couple or three to sell.  if you breed the ewes and keep the ewe lambs you can double your numbers quickly.  good luck with what ever you decide.


----------



## sadieml (Feb 24, 2016)

WOW!!!  @Bossroo & @Mini Horses -  You guys rock!  so much great info.  I now know something about sheep which is not something I could have said 20 mins ago.  You are amazing to be able to process all that info and break it down and put it back out there for us like that.  You 2 should co-write a book "Beginning Sheep Ranching for Dummies".  No joke.  Wonderful insights.  If I ever decide to have sheep, I will need this thread.  Think I'll copy and save now just in case.

@soarwitheagles -  You do have decisions to make, but man have you gotten a boatload of awesome advice to help.  Interested to see which way you head, now.  AND you're right, farming, even for us "backyard" farmers, is a big job.  Of course, it is worth it, but definitely not recommended for the faint-of-heart.

@goatgurl -  liked your post - all 3 times!


----------



## soarwitheagles (Feb 24, 2016)

goatgurl said:


> I also looked at the ABB breed when I decided to raise sheep but ended up with katadhins instead.  like you I didn't like the amount of time it takes for them to mature.  and  I agree with baymule that a katadhin/dorper cross is great but the guy I bought from has awesome sheep and I've just stuck with the purebreds from him.  just thought I would throw my two cents worth in as far as taste.  I have raised katadhins for the last 4 years and had an almost two year old ram that I needed to replace as i had several of his daughters.  now I love lamb but really don't care for mutton so I was really hesitant to butcher him but the breeder that I bought him from insisted I would like the meat.  long story short, I couldn't tell the difference between the taste of the 2 year old ram and the spring lamb.  I was amazed.  so I can't you what a pure dorper will taste like but can attest to the mildness of the katahdin.  I just keep a small herd for myself and my family with a couple or three to sell.  if you breed the ewes and keep the ewe lambs you can double your numbers quickly.  good luck with what ever you decide.



Goatgurl,

Thanks for posting your thoughts.  Yes, now, after all is said and done, I kinda wish I had started with Dorpers instead of ABB's.
I was very interested in the Katadhins until I saw the price!  Next, was the availability factor...none, not even one on CL!  Last, I did manage to purchase one katadhin along with the two Dorpers, but it died within 4 days of bringing her home...and that katadhin was one of the most beautiful of all our sheep!  Kind of a heart breaker...and I think it was mostly my fault...I think I should have given antibiotic injections to all the auction purchased sheep the very day I purchased them...I am convinced she died of pneumonia. 

One other factor I have had to consider when populating with sheep is to understand and distinguish between the sheep that only graze, and the sheep that can both browse and graze.... not sure where the katadhins fall in this all important factor.  For me, browsing is important due to the other 10+ acres of unmanaged Eucalyptus tree forest in the back. It is so overgrown, and eventually, I would like to have livestock that can eat the grass and the forbs down [the grass grows over 4ft. tall every fall/winter/spring...and then becomes a major fire hazard for the rest of the year...].  It sure would be nice to have some dorpers that can graze the grass, browse the forbs and Eucalyptus leaves, and clean the forest up well and all the while become more and more fat and juicy!

I dread even the idea of goats because I have had so many negative experiences with them.  So goats are not an option on my list anymore.

I am beginning to lean very strongly in this direction: I will ask my friend and rancher nearby to go in halves with me....that is, we each purchase 10 or so Dorper ewe lambs and a nice Dorper stock male ram for breeding.  Then, between the two of us, we can begin to raise our little army of Dorper lawn cutting, forest cleaning, fast growing livestock!

I would like to hang on to the ABB's for now because I would like to at least finish what I started and I dread quitting half way through.  4 more of the ABB's ewes appear to be pregnant and I would like to see them through until the birthing/weaning process.  That way I can learn more and most of all, not have to mow the fields here 5+ hours per week.  So I would like to turn them all out to pasture and let them eat the newly planted fields.  Problem is, I need to finish the 2000+ feet of woven wire installation first.

What an adventure!

Wow!

UPDATE: I did just find Katahdins for sale on CL.  They are asking $450 and up for young lambs...and that is way beyond our present budget.  I could purchase some after winning the lottery, but the problem is, I do not play the lottery!


----------



## Latestarter (Feb 24, 2016)

OK... I'm probably sitting right alongside everyone else  Can hardly wait to follow this adventure you're on! A LOT of work, but what a blast! Glad you were able to find some "affordable" Dorpers.

Sorry the Katahdin is/was so expensive... maybe after your original sheep are all grown out/lambed out/weened their lambs/sold out, you'll be able to afford a single Katahdin Ram to be the other 1/2 of your future herd.

Hey, whatever you decide, it's gotta work for you! I'm just along for the ride!


----------



## Bossroo (Feb 25, 2016)

There is a Katahdin sheep ranch that has over 100 ewes just 4 miles from our SE Washington home.  Two years ago , they did a test breeding with a borrowed Dorper ram on 24 of their own ewes.  The results  in meat and auction prices received with these x-bred lambs exceeded the straight Katahdin lambs. So,  They baught 2 Dorper rams to breed all of their ewes. They plan to slowly convert to Dorpers as their ewes stop producing.


----------

