# Help!!! Urgent!!!



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

I am losing my goats left and right. I took one to get an autopsy but I won't know what is killing them for maybe a few more days but something needs to be done now! We are starting to think it is barber pole worms. We have wormed the goats we ivermec but they say that won't kill barber poles since they arnt in the gut of the goat. But I read in different places that the quest horse wormer will give the adult barber pole worms. Everyone has said the same thing that 1cc per 100 lb but I have little Nigerian kids that are probably no more then 15-20lb the adults are around 50-60 so that would be 1/2 cc, does this sound right ??? They are becoming very animic and dying so I have everyone on red cell and making sure they are getting enough protein and forage.


----------



## Latestarter (Jul 29, 2016)

You really need to have a fecal analysis and possibly a blood test done to determine what's really killing them. I'm sorry I can't help you, but perhaps others can. If the worm load is so high it's already killing them, then killing all the worms too fast could also kill them from bleeding out internally when the worms die and release.

@Goat Whisperer @babsbag @Southern by choice @OneFineAcre @frustratedearthmother


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2016)

Ivermectin does kill barberpole.
It is possible for resistance but more likely they have flukes.
Flukes are bloodsuckers like the barberpole and cause severe anemia. Ivermectin will not touch flukes.
You would need Ivermectin *Plus*.

If kids are dying I would be looking for cocci as well.

This year seems to be a hard one... it seems all over the country there are severe worm and cocci issues.

A fecal analysis is best because you really need to know what you are treating, no guessing.

Each vet has their "own" dosage recommendations. 
Most in our area say 1cc for 30-50 lbs for Ivermectin

I have never heard of very high counts(parasites) on kids, usually it is cocci but this year has been odd.  I had a call from a lady that had a 3 month old kid with a 2100 EPG! and 200+cocci.
My first thought was how is the kid not dead! 

Get that fecal ASAP! This  way you know for sure. I would recommend a fecal on 1 adult and 1 kid.

If very high loads you do run the risk of them bleeding out when the bloodsuckers detatch. If it is barberpole I would use Fenbendazole 1cc 10 lbs ( if vet agrees) and do a 5 day course. Yes it is more work but allows a slower detach and may be better in the long run. 10 days later follow up with ivermectin.

Of course you should talk with your vet and work with their recommendations. 

Do they have any other symptoms?


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

We have had fecals done and my vet only found two worm eggs. The lab has blood but they just got in today so it could be a few days before I get answers. We have talked to other vets and a very close friend of mine who has had goats for most of her life and she says it sounds exactly like barber pole worms. I'm hoping the lab will get back to me as quick as possible. And no the goats that are dying so far are older like 7 months and up. I also picked up some high B Vitiam complex and some probiotic gel.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 29, 2016)

Barber Pole should show eggs and yes they are in the gut, not sure where that came from. Adult worms attach in the abomasal which is the 4th stomach of a goat. The dose we use to treat  is 1cc/40lbs so 1cc/100 isn't even close so you probably aren't killing them. If they have them bad enough to die from them then I would inject the ivermectin to get a slower kill. But if your vet did a fecal and found no eggs and no cocci then I would suspect Liver Fluke and get the Ivermectin Plus.  

Sorry you are losing your babies.


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

The vet showed us the eggs he found , he let me look at them. And then I pulled up a picture of barber worm eggs and they look the exact same! So idk why my vet didn't tell me what kind they were. But I'm hoping they call me tomorrow and tell me what caused it.
They did call today and say he died from animaia  and I was like I know that. Now I'm waiting to hear what caused it. I'm just hoping they find out in time before I lose all my babies .


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2016)

Flukes will still show in the fecal. There are several different kinds. This is odd.
Was the fecal sample fresh?


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Jul 29, 2016)

Barber pole and Flukes look very similar under the slide. 
Many have a hard time telling the difference. 

Are you using ivermectin @ 1cc per 100lbs, or the Quest wormer? 

Barber pole worms and flukes can have the same symptoms as well. 

So sorry you are are loosing goats  So heartbreaking


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

Yes the vet got the fecal himself  I think me and my buck felt violated. As soon as my vet got what he needed he started the test. This year has been a very bad year for me. At one point I just wanted to sell all my goats and get out of them , in this year i have lost 7 goats. My first buck died in January but luckily he bred one of my does so I have his beautiful daughter. Then in April one of my does died because she got out her pen and got in the shed and ate chick fed. In this month I have lost a mom and her twins( all 3 registered) my blue eyed buck, and my registered buck , and now I'm worried I may still lose more.


----------



## TAH (Jul 29, 2016)

I am sorry


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

My last registered doe has pale eyelids now and is starting to look thin. She has always been on the thin side though. I think in the morning I'm going to separate her in to her own pen after I clean my spare pen. I gave her 3cc of red cell, probiotic paste, some high protein feed with her normal alfalfa/Timothy pellets and some horse quality orchard grass hay. And I also dewormer her we quest horse wormer to see if it works. She is acting normal except for the pale eyelids and a little thin. I have the Vitiam b complex but I don't have no one to hold her while I give her the shot so that will have to wait till in the morning. Is there anything else i can do?


----------



## ragdollcatlady (Jul 29, 2016)

I have read that copper rods in a copper bolus will help reduce barber pole numbers, just not eliminate them totally. 

If you haven't bolused your goats in awhile, that might help, but I would check with the vet first as I don't know if it would cause a fast die off, or if it would take a few days.


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

Yes I have read about that. I just have to get the pills first.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2016)

Mason&lily said:


> We have had fecals done and my vet only found two worm eggs.





Mason&lily said:


> I think me and my buck felt violated. As soon as my vet got what he needed he started the test.



The way I am reading this is your vet went into the rectum and got a smear... if that is the case then that may be why only 2 eggs were seen.

It doesn't mean the goat isn't loaded. Same issues with a simple fecal float. You can see WHAT they have but that doesn't tell you the load. The only way to know that is through McMasters method.

In many cases where goat is scouring or severely anemic or dehydrated and you cannot get a good fecal a smear will at least say  WHAT you have so you can treat.

Rough year for many! Hang in there.


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

If they are liver flukes use ivermectin plus ? If this womer doesn't work how long so I wait to give them the ivermectin?


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

It's weird cause none of them have scours which I think is a great thing. But very confusing.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2016)

The only way to know is by doing reduction test. You start with the count (EPG) give dewormer and then do another fecal to see. 
Most usually don't do all that but goats improve. In your case because of the anemia it is going to take some time.
Many goats drop dead of parasites and never scour.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 29, 2016)

I would get the Ivermectin Plus and worm them all. It could be liver fluke and while I didn't do a ton of research a quick search led to me to believe that Quest won't work for flukes. The Ivermectin Plus should work for both Barber Pole and flukes.
The dose is 1cc/40 lbs but also everything I read says to inject the Plus, don't give it orally. They will die off too quickly and cause a bleed out. The injection will sting, they will probably scream like you are killing them.

Do you live in an area that would favor flukes? Wet grass, standing water, snails, slugs, etc. 

I am so sorry you are dealing with this, it is very hard sometimes and I understand your frustration and your fear. It is a pretty hopeless feeling at times.  

Without going back and rereading everything, did anyone mention Red Cell for the anemia?


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

No I have chickens,ducks, and geese trust me snails and slugs don't stand a chance since I free range them. And yes I am using red cell. I am in Virginia and we have had a lot of humid hot weather. I've never heard anyone in my area dealing with liver flukes. And My vet is going on vacction but I'm going to try to get him some more fecal samples.


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

Is the ivermectin plus Safe for pregnant does? Because two of my does may have been bred early this month around the 4th of July.


----------



## Mason&lily (Jul 29, 2016)

Also would it hurt to give them sulmet?


----------



## babsbag (Jul 29, 2016)

Then probably not liver fluke but the Ivermectin Plus would work on both so it wouldn't hurt as long as no one is pregnant. If they are severely infested with even Barber Pole worms injecting instead or orally might be safer. It won't work as fast buy you don't want the cure to kill them. 

Funny, I just saw your post. I read no for pregnant does and I have no experience so I would say NO. 

There is so much information out there, it is hard to know what to believe. I just NOW read that Iver. Plus will only work on the 4th stage of Barber Pole worms. So now I don't know what to tell you.  

Sulmet will treat cocci but cocci doesn't cause anemia.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 29, 2016)

But it has Ivemectin in it at the same dosage as the regular Ivermectin so I don't know why it wouldn't work. But I wouldn't give Plus it to your pregnant goats.


----------



## alsea1 (Jul 30, 2016)

You mentioned having fowl. I am wondering if there is a possibility of the goats picking something up from contact with birds or bird droppings.
I would def. be giving the goats b vitamin and iron supplements. Also probiotics.  Anything to help beef them up while they are under this attack.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 30, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I just NOW read that Iver. Plus will only work on the 4th stage of Barber Pole worms. So now I don't know what to tell you.



I know with flukes we had to treat every 10 days for 30 days.
We had Kiko's come in with Flukes.

The vet at the time said " Flukes aren't in the region"


----------



## babsbag (Jul 30, 2016)

Did the ducks and geese get rid of the flukes in the field?


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Jul 30, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Did the ducks and geese get rid of the flukes in the field?



If I remember right, they eat snails which are the intermediate host...or is that that something else...


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Aug 1, 2016)

I'm so sorry you are going through this!!


----------



## Mason&lily (Aug 1, 2016)

So far I haven't lost no more goats. Still waiting to find out what is going on.


----------



## Mason&lily (Aug 1, 2016)

Got the lab report back !!! It basically said due to a previous infestation of barber pole worms but there was not barber pole infestation currently? And that there was a very high amount of coccidiosis, so much they couldn't count. So It said the death was from malnutrition and animaia.  I feel so horrible, like its my fault. I don't know how he became malnourished the other three in the pasture with him are very fat and happy.


----------



## sadieml (Aug 1, 2016)

You can eat well and still be malnourished--if a parasite is helping itself to your vitamins and minerals.  Poor little guy. 

Okay, that's over.  You can't bring him back, but you can stop further losses.  Don't beat yourself up, just learn from this and move on.  Your report said barber pole and cocci, so that is what you need to treat for.  Do your best for all the ones you have left.  Unfortunately, sometimes we all learn lessons the hard way.  In the long run, this should make you a better farmer.


----------



## Mason&lily (Aug 1, 2016)

They said he no longer has barber pole worms and when I first wormed him it worked, I went ahead last Friday and rewormed everybody with a different wormer and I've been keeping sulmet in the waters and giving them some orally.


----------



## babsbag (Aug 1, 2016)

He became malnourished from the cocci; it scars the intestines so that they can't absorb nutrients. That is why prevention is so much better than treatment, the damage can be done before you know they even have it and it can stunt their growth even if it doesn't kill them. 

So now you know that the wormer was working if there was no current infestation but you need to treat for cocci. You can either get a fecal on each goat or (nobody look at this except the OP) you can treat the entire herd. I understand the cost sometimes of doing all the testing. 

I have never lost a kid to cocci but I am horrid at doing the prevention. I usually treat when I see it which is the wrong way to do it. I also lost a kid to selenium deficiency so sometimes stuff happens; sometimes  it is the way we learn...as painful as it is. 

Your vet should have seen cocci...


----------



## Mason&lily (Aug 1, 2016)

I keep Minerals and baking soda down for all my goats, but the bad thing with goats is when they get sick they die quick .


----------



## babsbag (Aug 1, 2016)

Sulmet in the water might work, but you don't know for sure how much they are getting. I would give them the oral dose too, like you are doing. 

I found this on anther site. 

_Sulfamethazine sodium
Sulmet Drinking Water Solution 12.5% 

Give Orally - Administer straight (no need to mix with any other liquids) into the mouth using a syringe (remove the needle). Do not just add it to the kid's water because you will not know if he receives the correct dose. Do not add it to his milk because the milk effects the potency of the drug. 
Five day treatment- you must treat the full five days. 
Day one: 1 ml per 5 pounds- given orally. 
Days 2-5: 1 ml per 10 pounds- given orally_


----------



## babsbag (Aug 1, 2016)

Mason&lily said:


> I keep Minerals and baking soda down for all my goats, but the bad thing with goats is when they get sick they die quick .



Amen, sometimes I feel like that were born trying to die.


----------



## Mason&lily (Aug 1, 2016)

I hope my buck breed my two does I had with him  hoping for a doeling, he had amazing bloodlines plus he was the sweetest and was a great looking buck.


----------



## BlessedWithGoats (Aug 1, 2016)

Please don't beat yourself up.... I know this is hard. 
I hope you get a doeling or more than one!


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Aug 3, 2016)

Update?


----------



## Mason&lily (Aug 4, 2016)

So far no one else has gotten sick there three with pale eyelids, they will get wormed again Monday. Other then that I think everything is under control. Now I just have to put some weight back on two of them. They don't look like there skinny, I just can feel the hip bones a little too much for my liking.


----------



## babsbag (Aug 4, 2016)

Hoping they all continue to improve.


----------

