# My garden 😞



## Xerocles

I knew it would happen. Pushed to the far reaches of my mind, but just waiting to be unleashed onto my reality of yet another worry, another project. In the past few days the subtle hints are popping up....seed catalogs, spring plantings, garden prep.
Yep. "GARDENS". COMING SOON TO A PLOT OF GROUND NEAR YOU!
Now here's why that's the title to a horror story for me.




This is my "garden". Only spot on the place relatively flat. And, believe it or not.....besides the back yard, the least overgrown.
Now last Feb when I moved in, it was obvious that I wouldn't have time to prepare for the garden....so I did a few plants in containers. Thinking I would clear this area later in the spring and summer. Life happened. This pic is today.
Sooo. My dream is a "Ruth Stout" garden. Probably most of you are familiar with that. Lazy persons gardening (that's me ok). Down side is it takes a few seasons to really be effective. Worst case scenario would have been to have it laid in as of August.
So just know. When you guys drop your little hints about upcoming gardens, you're making me cringe with each little mention.
I really hate container gardening.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> I knew it would happen. Pushed to the far reaches of my mind, but just waiting to be unleashed onto my reality of yet another worry, another project. In the past few days the subtle hints are popping up....seed catalogs, spring plantings, garden prep.
> Yep. "GARDENS". COMING SOON TO A PLOT OF GROUND NEAR YOU!
> Now here's why that's the title to a horror story for me.
> View attachment 67944
> This is my "garden". Only spot on the place relatively flat. And, believe it or not.....besides the back yard, the least overgrown.
> Now last Feb when I moved in, it was obvious that I wouldn't have time to prepare for the garden....so I did a few plants in containers. Thinking I would clear this area later in the spring and summer. Life happened. This pic is today.
> Sooo. My dream is a "Ruth Stout" garden. Probably most of you are familiar with that. Lazy persons gardening (that's me ok).* Down side is it takes a few seasons to really be effective. *Worst case scenario would have been to have it laid in as of August.
> So just know. When you guys drop your little hints about upcoming gardens, you're making me cringe with each little mention.
> I really hate container gardening.



Nah....relax and keep it simple.  NOW is the time to do your Stout garden prep.   Get out there and cut down all those saplings but don't worry a thing about getting the roots out....those will help you later on in this no till gardening.    The soil there is already soft on top, I'm sure.   You already have a nice little layer of leaves going on and likely some measure of top soil from  leaf litter over the years. 

After cutting down your saplings to the soil level, just put a thick layer of hay~NOT straw~ there....and I do mean thick, as this stuff mulches down fairly quickly.   I'd put no less than a foot of hay on it right now so it has time to start rotting down and so the ground has more covering that the worms can feed on and start creating the softness underneath you will need for planting into.   This winter is the time to do a no till garden prep, it puts you light years ahead of the game and you'll be surprised at just how well your garden does in your first year of gardening if you already have that thick layer of mulch in place the winter before.  

Then just plant directly into that hay come planting time.   If you want to plant any kind of small seeds, as in greens, just push back the hay, plant your seeds, let those get established and then place the hay back in between the plants and rows once you have thinned them down. 

Your glass is half full, so no worries!


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## Baymule

Have you ever in your life had a cheering section like BYH? The only thing I have to add to @Beekissed's advice is maybe trim up the saplings and use them to make swales to prevent water run off. Plop a little dirt over them and cover deep in hay. 

Favorite seed company;
www.rareseeds.com


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## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> Nah....relax and keep it simple.  NOW is the time to do your Stout garden prep.   Get out there and cut down all those saplings but don't worry a thing about getting the roots out....those will help you later on in this no till gardening.    The soil there is already soft on top, I'm sure.   You already have a nice little layer of leaves going on and likely some measure of top soil from  leaf litter over the years.
> 
> After cutting down your saplings to the soil level, just put a thick layer of hay~NOT straw~ there....and I do mean thick, as this stuff mulches down fairly quickly.   I'd put no less than a foot of hay on it right now so it has time to start rotting down and so the ground has more covering that the worms can feed on and start creating the softness underneath you will need for planting into.   This winter is the time to do a no till garden prep, it puts you light years ahead of the game and you'll be surprised at just how well your garden does in your first year of gardening if you already have that thick layer of mulch in place the winter before.
> 
> Then just plant directly into that hay come planting time.   If you want to plant any kind of small seeds, as in greens, just push back the hay, plant your seeds, let those get established and then place the hay back in between the plants and rows once you have thinned them down.
> 
> Your glass is half full, so no worries!


Hey. Thanks for the pep talk. Wish I were as optimistic as you. I already planned to do exactly as you said. But just wish I had a few more months of decay going on in the hay. Those saplings can't be more than a few years old, so don't expect much humus to have accumulated there. And the "soil" is just red clay. And I mean "just". I bought a gas auger for some post holes. It went 10 inches (in about 20 mins) and just stopped digging, just sat there spinning. I figure those sapling roots will do SOMETHING to loosen the clay when they rot, but not really optomistic until I get a couple years hay compost built up. At least that clay should have some good minerals if they can get roots into it, and don't rot from too much water retention/ too little oxygen.


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## Xerocles

Xerocles said:


> Hey. Thanks for the pep talk. Wish I were as optimistic as you. I already planned to do exactly as you said. But just wish I had a few more months of decay going on in the hay. Those saplings can't be more than a few years old, so don't expect much humus to have accumulated there. And the "soil" is just red clay. And I mean "just". I bought a gas auger for some post holes. It went 10 inches (in about 20 mins) and just stopped digging, just sat there spinning. I figure those sapling roots will do SOMETHING to loosen the clay when they rot, but not really optomistic until I get a couple years hay compost built up. At least that clay should have some good minerals if they can get roots into it, and don't rot from too much water retention/ too little oxygen.


OH, and that's the real reason I'm pushin to get the rabbitry going. I want that poop for the garden. Is that backwards or what? The meat is just a byproduct. The poop is the purpose.


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## Baymule

Plant daikon long root radishes. Let them grow, go to seed, die and rot in the ground. The radish will open up the soil, the humus will help the soil and provide food for earthworms. Plant a row, then plant a row of what you want to grow. Alternate rows of radishes, next year move the radishes over a row. Um....some veggies won't like radishes for companion planting.... So maybe divide the garden in to quadrants, plant one section at a time in radishes, after they die back, mulch heavily.


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Favorite seed company;
> www.rareseeds.com


Now I realize this is back yard HERDS and not gardening daily. But @Baymule started this by listing her favorite seed company.
Anybody got a take on George W Park seeds? They're local to me, they sell non-gmo seeds, and while lately they seem to be mostly flowers and ornamentals, still have a wide variety of veggies. Besides the founder's name was George, so how bad can they be?


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Plant daikon long root radishes. Let them grow, go to seed, die and rot in the ground.


Ohhhhh;hhhhhh. I like your thinking baymule. Plant a crop PLANNING for it to die and rot! Now that sounds tailor made for me cause that's just what most of the things I plant do. Hey, I might make a gardener yet. "Yep, I had a bumper crop of rotted radishes this year!"


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## Baymule

Local seed company? Go for it. Look up rareseeds.com OMG! The tomatoes! pink, red, purplish, yellow, orange, white, striped, You could warm your hands on a cold day from the warmth radiating off those pages!


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## Baymule

My garden was a bust for 2019. I did get some English peas and Sugar Snaps, but after that, it quit raining and got hot. The weeds took steroids and IV transfusions of Miracle Grow. The sheep liked them. Oh well, there is always next year.


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Local seed company? Go for it. Look up rareseeds.com OMG! The tomatoes! pink, red, purplish, yellow, orange, white, striped, You could warm your hands on a cold day from the warmth radiating off those pages!


I looked up rareseeds.com That's Baker Creek. I've heard really good things about them. But Park Seeds is a 20 minute drive from me. Do an internet search. Look to be neck and neck with Baker Creek. BC did have a wider selection of "weird" tomatoes.....that I don't think I'd ever try, anyway.


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## Baymule

Being able to walk into a seed company would be like a hound dog in a meat market!


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## Xerocles

Well. We're back to THIS. Had to take a few days getting the rabbits settled, but started clearing the garden spot yesterday. It's roughly 50' X 120'. Now, I feel a little foolish, because, truthfully, all I want are a couple of tomato plants and maybe 1 hill of cucumbers. But the spot is there. Once cleared it's gonna take a few years to builld the soil, and you never know when I may lose my mind in planting. Lots of you have "chicken, rabbit, sheep, goat, etc math". I control that pretty well, but put a seed catalog in my hand........
Now, I apprised the situation and figured I'd have it cleared in 2, 2 1/2 days. Once again my young mind overloaded my worn out body. Suddenly I'm thinking 10 days to two weeks. HOW did our forefathers even DO this with axes and crosscut saws?? Chainsaws kill my back. After a few hours today, when I sat down and arched my back it sounded like someone crinkling tinfoil.
My scheming mind is working overtime. Found a guy about 15 miles from me who has 10 round bales of fescue hay (last years hay) for $5/bale. Only I don't have a trailer and he doesn't deliver. If I get it here, I think I can maneuver and unroll it with my old pick-up. Now just to find some way to GET it here. Oh, just for comparison, this years hay is selling $35-$50/ bale. Cash and carry. And all I want it to do is rot in the garden. I buy square bales fresh ($5/) for the rabbits. 600 cubic feet of hay in square bales is.....oh, my poor mind....a lot of square bales.
Enough pi$$ing and moaning. Just get up every morning and DO it. Right? Thanks for listening.


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## WyoLiving

Can you rent a trailer to haul those round bales home?
With the clay issues and the roots from the saplings (they will probably sprout more saplings in the spring) and such, I would probably build some raised beds instead of trying to garden in the ground.  I have fairly good soil here - it has a little too much sand but compost will eventually fix that - but I am going to start building a series of raised beds.  The raised beds will make gardening easier on me, and I will be able to plant sooner when I make some cold frames for them.


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## Beekissed

You can rent a flat trailer the appropriate size for hauling round bales at Uhaul for a reasonable price($29.95 for a 6x12).   That's what I've been doing this year, but hope to buy a similar size this coming spring....looks like hauling round bales will feature in my future, so best to own my own trailer.   

That's a GREAT price for mulch round bales, so I'd snap that up in a heartbeat.


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## Baymule

If you can't find a trailer to rent, use your truck. Load bale in the back, to unload, back up quick, slam on brakes, bale rolls out. Boom. Go get the next one.

Hint: Round bales have a flat side. Have the farmer use the tractor forks to roll the bale with the flat side up, then load in truck, over the side, "round" side facing tailgate.


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## farmerjan

@Baymule  has the unloading round bales off the truck down to a science.  Yep, her advice is SPOT ON !!!! especially the unloading with the "flat side"  UP so that the rolling will start before the round bale gets to that spot.  If I remember you rightly, you have a fair amount of slope to a good part of your land.  Since you are clearing a mostly flat spot, can you back up to it with the back end of the truck more downhill to unload?  That will also help.  And if you do the back up hit the brakes thing, if you have only cut the saplings down where the garden is going to go, then the other saplings will act as as a backstop, and the bale won't go down the hill to oshkosh.....
$5.00 a roll is a great price.  I would also figure out a way to make it work.  Look in your local paper or ask at the local feed store if there is a someone with a flat bed trailer that would haul them... look in your local ads for services.... or else, just for it yourself with your truck.  The truck will actually make getting them unloaded easier than a flat trailer;   with the "backup fast / hit the brakes" thing there won't be much hard work on your part to get them off the truck.   They may not go exactly where you want;   they  might wind up against each other... but if you really don't want such a big garden at first, they will just keep rotting where they are and enriching the soil.... you can pull off what you can manage with a pitchfork and make the spots where you want to plant as "deep" in hay as you want. 

I like the idea of raised beds too for any area that you are "renovating".  You might have to go get a truckload of topsoil to put in the raised bed, to start your gardening project;  but then you can be mulching with the hay inbetween plants, and the rest of those round bales will just be rotting down into soil.


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## Xerocles

Got it worked out! Delivered for $30. And I don't even have to use my gas. And have a neighbor with tractor and hay spear to unload. Weekend after Christmas.....and all I gotta do now is clear an unloading spot on the hill beside the garden. Thanks for the suggestions (and Bay, I like the way you think, but 30 mi round trip for ten trips.....I could darn near buy this years hay!).
God it feels good when something works right.


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## farmerjan

See, we knew you could get it figured out.....


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## Baymule

You must have done something right today! LOL


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## Xerocles

farmerjan said:


> if you have only cut the saplings down where the garden is going to go, then the other saplings will act as as a backstop, and the bale won't go down the hill to oshkosh....


Wish I had heard this BEFORE I started clearing. There is a pretty big erosion gully beside the garden area....so I started there, so as to toss the limbs more conveniently. Now I can just envision the bale continuing on into the abyss!! Thanks for giving me something new to worry about!!


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> Wish I had heard this BEFORE I started clearing. There is a pretty big erosion gully beside the garden area....so I started there, so as to toss the limbs more conveniently. *Now I can just envision the bale continuing on into the abyss!!* Thanks for giving me something new to worry about!!



If it does, you have a good start at a hugel bed!   There's a silver lining in most things....


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## Baymule

Do you generally make a habit of doing things BASS-ACKWARDS?


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## farmerjan

Don't panic.  If the guy with the tractor and bale spear is going to unload for you he can put them where you want.... AND .... put the flat part on the ground so they won't roll and really, since all these are going to do is be mulch... then put the whole flat side down on the ground so you can fork off the hay you want from the sides all the way around the bale.  It won't roll anywhere, and you will be able to fork off all that you want in long "leaves" of hay and be able to lay these pieces flat on the ground and stack on top of each other.  The flat side that is on the ground, and the opposite side facing up into the sky, will also allow the rain to soak in and the hay will rot better that way too.  The whole idea of the "round side up" is to help shed the rain off the bale.  You want exactly the opposite.  The guy with the tractor and spear can put them where and how you want them.  Really, they can.


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## Xerocles

Man, I feel like I've got my on "cheering section" here. You guys are terrific, each and every one! I might be doing the actual work, but I know this is a team effort.  THANKS EVERYONE!


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Do you generally make a habit of doing things BASS-ACKWARDS?


No! I am perfectly normal. Its the REST of you who are messed up, with your planning, and foresight, and thinking ahead. Isn't life supposed to consist of UNdoing the last three things you did so you can move forward with what you're about to do? Doesn't spontaneity count for anything anymore?


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## Baymule

Don’t you go insulting me using those organizing words! PLANS! THINKING AHEAD! Or just thinking at all! LOL


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## farmerjan

Okay, what's the status on the garden/hay ?????


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## Xerocles

Status: 80% cleared. Rain Sunday and today. Tomorrow, Wed, Thur, and if I need it, Friday, clear and in the 60s. I will be ready for delivery of the mulch hay. IF he can deliver in the rain which we will have this weekend, again. And, apparently, he has a "regular" job, which restricts us to weekends. At any rate, the plot will definitely be cleared, the mulch SHOULD be delivered, and layered, by New Years. Then, it can begin it's magic to transform that sticky red clay into a rich productive oasis of fertility. And I can return to the care and proper tending of the chickens and rabbits  as well as girding my loins for the next pressing project. Oooohhhhhh. You DON'T EVEN want to know.


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## farmerjan

Inquiring minds DO want to know


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## Baymule

Why yes, we do want to know!


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## Xerocles

farmerjan said:


> Inquiring minds DO want to know



Have to go to town & get gas for the chainsaw. Only got about 12 cut. Only about 100 more to go!
They say a picture is worth 1000 words so here's a couple thousand words on that next project. 16' X 14' workshop/tool storage. Bottom sill-plate completely rotted away on this side.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Man, I feel like I've got my on "cheering section" here. You guys are terrific, each and every one! I might be doing the actual work, but I know this is a team effort.  THANKS EVERYONE!


This is why I like this site so much!


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## WyoLiving

We have a calf shed that is like that, but only 1/2 way.  I want to tear down that 1/2 anyway, so we are not bothering to fix it anywhere besides where the door is. We need to have the door be able to open and close, lol.  The big machine shop that DH just put 3 garage doors into also has a rotted sill plate in the back corner.  It never ends.


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## Xerocles

The workshop project may be slid back onto the back burner again. I have good news and bad news on the garden plot. The bad news is, my chainsaw crapped out Christmas morning. An inaccessible fuel line came loose. Wasted half a day "fixing" it. Cut 3 trees and it came loose again. Time for someone who knows what they're doing to take over. So, with 6 trees left (out of approx 300) I am at a standstill.
The good news? Sometimes it's handy when people think you're bat$#]t crazy. The neighbor who was going to help unload the hay asked what I was going to do with 9 round bales of hay (knowing I only have chickens and rabbits. I told him. He said I wouldn't need nearly that much. I remember my highschool math pretty well (thank you, Ms Shouse, 10th grade geometry) so I quickly figured (out loud, but I realize he didn't follow....he probably didn't have Ms Shouse) and told him the cubic feet in each bale, and the cubic feet in the garden to be 12" deep. He didn't believe me, so we unrolled one of his bales and measured. God, math is wonderful. He was shaking his head, still doubting. I gave him the condensed version of Ruth Stout gardening. He said "Do you REALLY think that's gonna work?" I told him it was only going to cost me $80 to find out. So, he said "No, its not gonna cost you ANYTHING to find out. I've got 10 bales of last years hay and I'll GIVE it to you, just to see this!" So, to paraphrase Forest Gump, crazy is as crazy does.


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## thistlebloom

Crazy people often get taken care of that way  🤣.


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## Mini Horses

Xerocles said:


> Thanks for giving me something new to worry about!!





Xerocles said:


> this is a team effort



Yes to both above!!   Part of our "give this a thought" efforts to guide you.  

Your neighbor is GREAT!!  Disbelievers can be useful.    In the Spring, you will be able to get him to "help" plant, as he shows you your wrong ways. Maybe he isn't aware of how WELL potatoes will grow in straw.


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## frustratedearthmother

SCORE!  Ten  bales free?  That's fantastic!


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## Xerocles

[QUOTE="Mini Horses, post: 633065, member: Maybe he isn't aware of how WELL potatoes will grow in straw.  
[/QUOTE]
Oh, this is a "win-win" for my neighbor. Remember, this is where I grew up. And the local mind-set is "if Grandpaw didn't do it, I ain't gonna do it." No till gardening in general is a foreign concept.
So, if this works, he tells all his friends "You not gonna believe this. I saw it with my own eyes."
If it fails he says "yeah, moved to the city and came back with these crazy newfangled ideas". And all he invested was some hay that he had no use for anyhow.
But, I don't care. I'm grateful to him for the neighborly help.


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## Beekissed

I LOVE that story!   I can't wait until you show him what you've grown there.   I think you too will be amazed at how quickly the soil grows soft under that layer of hay, as the worms ascend to feed on it.  It's like a huge buffet for earthworms....they drag the small particles down into their tunnels and slowly but surely the soil is softened by their tunneling, mulch matter is incorporated into the topsoil and worm castings build up.  

Now, here's what you need for any hay sprouts that spring up in the spring.   Trust me, it will be the most valuable hoe you've ever owned for no till gardening, particularly with hay......pricey but worth every single penny.   Be careful of the edges....sharp enough to kill someone if you need it to.  





__





						40S – 4″ Scuffle Hoe | Rogue Hoe Distributing, LLC
					






					roguehoe.com


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## farmerjan

Not only do potatoes grow good in the hay/straw, but it will make it so that you can get in the garden anytime you want.  No worrying about the ground being muddy, getting 10 lbs of clay stuck to your feet.  Or the ground being too muddy from 3 days of rain, yet the plants are dry and you  really need to get the green beans picked.  The "fruits" of the plants will be protected from the mud and stay alot cleaner.  You may have some slugs to deal with as the hay breaks down.  There are sometimes some mice that will live in it.  But it still beats trying to keep a garden perfectly tilled all the time to be able to find the plants.  And the ground/soil will be softer and absorb more rain, and will stay moist for a lot longer. 
You can put started tomatoes down in it as far as you want, pull the hay up around them and they will put out roots all along the stem that touches the hay.  You can even lay a long tomato branch down and cover it with some wet hay and it will root and you can then sever it from the main plant and have "new tomato plants.  That works really good about half - two thirds of the way through the growing season when they get tall and leggy and seem to fizzle out.... you can start some new ones that will go to blooming like they do when they first get going good in the garden.


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## farmerjan

You will find that small seeds will not do as well to be started in this until the soil below gets more friable, and you can then pull the mulch away in a long row to plant seeds.   You may want to mostly plant just plants in this.  You can start most anything in flats or pots then just stick them in the garden.  But except for carrots that do not transplant very well, there isn't much that can't be started, then the plants put in.  Potatoes don't need to be started, just put the eyes in,  and in about 10 days you ought to see green coming up.  Keep the mulch pulled up around them so the potatoes that are developing do not get green.  I would keep one roll at the edge of the garden, set on the flat side, so you can unroll any hay off it to use in spots where you want more mulch.  And it will continue to break down too so not any loss.


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## Baymule

Gather up the rabbit manure, put 2 pound coffee can full in a 5 gallon bucket. Let it sit a few days, stir several times a day. You can put the green leaves of weeds in it too. On the 4th day, strain it out and put 1 gallon of the manure tea in a 2 gallon pump up sprayer, fill with water. Spray at the roots of the plant for a compost boost.


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## Xerocles

You guys DO remember I said earlier I only wanted a couple of tomato plants and 1 hill of cucumbers? I wanted to try this slowly the first year, to work through problems. Talk about a bunch of enablers! 
What you don't realize is what a pushover I am when it's planting time....or how lax I can become at "tending" time. Thus, how bad a gardener I am. Hoping this method helps with that. But you people would set out needles and works in front of a former addict!
@farmerjan No worries about carrots. They need deep rich sandy soil, and mulch or no mulch, I'm about as far away from that as you can get. But maybe a few in last years tomato containers? Oh, there I go! You guys are getting me cranked again. Slugs. Thoughts on control?
@Baymule I was going to put a handfull of rabbit pellets into the bottom of each hole prior to putting in the plants. Will this work? Assuming I can keep the dog out of the pellets long enough for me to collect some. She has practically quit eating her dog food and has gained 5 lbs.😆


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## Baymule

Yes, rabbit pellets in the hole with the plant will work. The formula I gave you gets the bacterial action going, the fermenting rabbit poo and weed leaves. You can let it ferment until it gets stinky, big leaf weeds are best, like dock, plaintain and such. 

For tomatoes I put a heaping tablespoon of Epsom salts in the hole, then a little dirt, then the plant.


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## Xerocles

Thanks for the hoe suggestion."ROGUE HOES". I've known a few of those in my lifetime!
Size suggestion? 4" or 6"? Remember, its got to be worked through a LOT of mulch.
And sharp enough to kill someone? Not the voice of experience I hope. But may have to get an extra to keep by the front door just in case.


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## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> I can't wait until you show him what you've grown there.   I think you too will be amazed at how quickly the soil grows soft under that layer of hay, as the worms ascend to feed on it.  It's like a huge buffet for earthworms....they drag the small particles down into their tunnels and slowly but surely the soil is softened by their tunneling, mulch matter is incorporated into the topsoil and worm castings build up.


The alliteration! The picturesque phrasing! I got goosebumps. Felt like I was reading the prologue to a fairy tale! Got me all pumped up!


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> Thanks for the hoe suggestion."ROGUE HOES". I've known a few of those in my lifetime!
> Size suggestion? 4" or 6"? Remember, its got to be worked through a LOT of mulch.
> And sharp enough to kill someone? Not the voice of experience I hope. But may have to get an extra to keep by the front door just in case.



I've got the 4 in but the 6 in would work just as well, though harder to work in close to smaller plants and more narrow spacing of some greens and such.   

You are talking to the LOT of mulch queen....I roll out round bales on my garden space too, often a foot or more deep.  Rolled out 4 of them on the garden this year and 5 last year.  This hoe is the only kind I've found that fits neatly and quickly into the long hay strands and cuts the weeds without disturbing the top layer of mulch.  

The blade?   You barely touch something that can be punctured with it and it's punctured...ruined my spare tire cover by a mere graze with it.   I figure it would just as easily gut a human with a good shove in the right direction.       In other words, handle with care but don't forget to put a good edge on it again at the end of the season if you are running into any stones in your soil.  

After the death of my spare tire cover, my son made me a leather cover for the Rogue....figured I'd cut other, more vital, things as time wore on....I'm pretty clumsy.   They sell leather sheath covers for the hoes there but they run over $50 ea.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Baymule said:


> Gather up the rabbit manure, put 2 pound coffee can full in a 5 gallon bucket. Let it sit a few days, stir several times a day. You can put the green leaves of weeds in it too. On the 4th day, strain it out and put 1 gallon of the manure tea in a 2 gallon pump up sprayer, fill with water. Spray at the roots of the plant for a compost boost.


That must smell lovely


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## Xerocles

Update on the garden situation. The neighbor who is giving me the hay had a stipulation. I had to go to the field with him to help load the hay. He recently had surgery, and could load the hay with the tractor, but had difficulty strapping it down. NO PROBLEM!
Today, I was making a grilled cheese sandwich for lunch. As I plopped it in the pan, the phone rang. The neighbor. "Are you really busy right now?
Of course not, what do you need. "Take me to the hayfield so I can bring the tractor home."
Absolutely. On my way. Burner off. Left the untoasted sandwich in the pan.
Got to his place. His truck and trailer with 7 bales of hay were sitting by the gate. He had loaded (and strapped) by himself, and just needed a ride to get his tractor and drive it home.
"The key's in the truck. Drive it past the pole barn, and we'll stage it there. I'll close the gate." Well, at the barn was his other trailer with another load of hay. He pulled up with the tractor, got down, and said "unload it". I explained I was not familiar with tractor use. He said oh, here's gear selector, hi-lo selector, and this raises and tilts the spear. You'll figure it out. (Now I've never been on anything bigger than a 18hp lawn tractor) But, figure it out, I did! In 5 minutes I was spearing, lifting, and siting hay bales like a pro (in MY mind at least. He was probably laughing inside to bust a gut.)
Turns out, this is this years late season cut. His surgery had delayed his cutting, and broom straw had taken over the field. His cows just wasted it, trying to get the good parts. He told me when I was ready, come get the tractor and get the hay. (There's a twelve foot gate between his farm and my place). I told him I'd call him when I was ready to spread. He said don't bother, just be sure to close gates and put the tractor back in the barn.  ???? WHO DOES THIS? I guess he just really took a liking to me. With that .30-30 scabbarded by the tractor seat, I'm really glad.
Oh, and as I was about to leave, he told me if I wanted any sunflower seed, help myself. He had a 1/4 acre patch right by the barn, and he'd gotten all he wanted. Now, I don't know what variety of sunflowers they are, but I bet the rabbiits are gonna LOVE this.
And the sandwich was GREAT when I got to finish it.


----------



## Baymule

You got a darn good neighbor. We have a darn fine neighbor, he has had his own set of keys to our tractor since before we even moved in. 

That is great about the hay, HOORAY for HAY!!


----------



## Beekissed

You won the neighbor lottery!   How cool is that guy?   Neighbor envy on this side of the screen.


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## Mini Horses

Your chickens will LOVE the sunflower seeds, also!!

Wish I had a neighbor like that!!    Keep him.


----------



## Xerocles

Mini Horses said:


> Your chickens will LOVE the sunflower seeds, also!!
> 
> Wish I had a neighbor like that!!    Keep him.


Silly me! I wasn't even thinking of the chickens! Now, I asked this question in my rabbit thread about the rabbits, but how much or how many to feed the chickens? 6 layers. A handful scattered a day?


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## Baymule

BOSS comes in handy to get the chickens to go back in the coop. Always feed treats in the coop instead of outside, so they will more easily go back in the coop when you want them to.


----------



## Xerocles

I'm generally a patient person....but suddenly I am feeling like a two year old and I want it NOW!
The hay for my garden is sitting at the neighbor's. I have permission to use his tractor at any time. There are 6 trees waiting to be cut in the garden plot. My chainsaw dropped a fuel line. Someone told me he could replace it for me...now it won't work at all. Frustrated, I decided to buy another chainsaw. I want to do some "up in the tree" work, anyhow, so opted for a 40 volt cordless electric. Hours of research (no other projects I could work on today anyhow) and settled on one at Lowes. But it won't be here until the 13th.
Meanwhile, I've been negotiating with a guy on rescuing my workshop. Almost two weeks now. At first he said tear it down. Now he says it can be saved, about 4 days labor...but still cheaper than tear down and rebuild. Would start next week...but rain is forcast for every day next week!
I would just go get the panels for the goats I want this spring just to have something to do...but haven't figured out how to haul them in a short bed pickup.
Also found out there is a place near me that has pallets (roughly 4' X 4', one side heat treated 3/4" plywood) for $2 each. Goat barn and duck coops. But I don't know where it is, and have to wait on him to take me.
Grrrrrr!!! Hurry up and wait.
Patience is a virtue. But I'm not feeling very virtuous right now.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

Xerocles said:


> I would just go get the panels for the goats I want this spring just to have something to do...but haven't figured out how to haul them in a short bed pickup


Whatever you do - DON'T fold them up so they'll fit - they'll never be straight again no matter how many times you run over them with the truck and/or tractor to try to get them flat.  But, if you're gonna cut them in half anyway that would make them easier to haul.


----------



## Xerocles

frustratedearthmother said:


> Whatever you do - DON'T fold them up so they'll fit - they'll never be straight again no matter how many times you run over them with the truck and/or tractor to try to get them flat.  But, if you're gonna cut them in half anyway that would make them easier to haul.


 kinda figured that too. Thought I'd take advantage of my FANTASTIC neighbor again, and next time he's out and about with his trailer, near TSC...
Oh. I just realized I wasn't finished with my rant. I'm a veteran and my old house was 5 minutes from the VA hospital. Now it's an hour and a half away. There's a provision that, because of distance, I'm eligible for "local care". I started working on that last August. Nothing. Two weeks ago I contacted my US Senator's office. I called the VA today and learned there is a congressional inquiry going on in my behalf....but still no resolution! Glad I'm a reasonably healthy individual.


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## thistlebloom

Are you talking about 16' CP's? We haul them in a truck all the time. And I have even used my tiny '04 Tacoma. You just load them in straight, the extra hanging off the tailgate, then push them up until they are sort of a crossways covered wagon style. We always use tiedowns once they are humped up to keep them bowed. Not over the top, but connected to the front cargo hooks in the truck bed, connected to the back end of the CP's. Shut the tailgate. When you get home you can release the tiedowns slowly until you are able to safely unhook and unload.
Do not load without using tiedowns to keep them humped up. There is a lot of pressure on the tailgate otherwise, and when you open it they can spring out and knock you down.


----------



## Xerocles

thistlebloom said:


> Are you talking about 16' CP's? We haul them in a truck all the time. And I have even used my tiny '04 Tacoma. You just load them in straight, the extra hanging off the tailgate, then push them up until they are sort of a crossways covered wagon style. We always use tiedowns once they are humped up to keep them bowed. Not over the top, but connected to the front cargo hooks in the truck bed, connected to the back end of the CP's. Shut the tailgate. When you get home you can release the tiedowns slowly until you are able to safely unhook and unload.
> Do not load without using tiedowns to keep them humped up. There is a lot of pressure on the tailgate otherwise, and when you open it they can spring out and knock you down.


I THINK I'M IN LOVE!  Now why didn't I have the sense to figure that out?!? THANK YOU, THANK YOU THANK YOU! Tomorrow. Wait, rain tomorrow. Wednesday!
BTW. You got any pull with the VA?


----------



## thistlebloom

No, sorry, no pull with the VA, unless you mean Vegans Anonymous, ...and actually I have no pull there either.

Oh, and humping the CP's up in the truck won't put a permanent bend in them. They are as flat as Aunt Ethel when you unload them. Also, you know rain won't hurt CPs. Don't you own a raincoat?


----------



## Xerocles

thistlebloom said:


> Don't you own a raincoat?


Raincoat? Dear, I'm a "Gentleman Farmer". You know we don't do ANYTHING in inclement weather.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

thistlebloom said:


> They are as flat as Aunt Ethel when you unload them.


Mine weren't.


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## Xerocles

frustratedearthmother said:


> Mine weren't.


 You just don't know my Aunt Ethel. She was like Dolly Parton on steroids.
Ok,ok, seriously. Extra 10 mile trip. But I'll go get just one, and see.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

Might depend on how much bend they put in 'em.  The goofers that loaded mine bent them almost completely in half and tied the ends together.  They never recovered and I finally took down that crooked fence and will use those panels for a hoop house.  Then they can fulfill their crooked panel destiny.


----------



## thistlebloom

frustratedearthmother said:


> Might depend on how much bend they put in 'em.  The goofers that loaded mine bent them almost completely in half and tied the ends together.  They never recovered and I finally took down that crooked fence and will use those panels for a hoop house.  Then they can fulfill their crooked panel destiny.



Those loaders should pay better attention! You just need them to bend enough to be able to shut the tailgate. None of our trucks are shortbeds. That might make a difference, but tying the ends together was a bad idea. Obviously. 
The most we have transported at a time this way was 6, when we need more we take the trailer, or when I ordered 20 one time I had them delivered. Cost a little more but it was worth it.


----------



## farmerjan

If you have 2 long 2x4's or 2x6's (8 ft is okay, 10 ft is better)  lay them down in the truck, half way into the truck bed, slide the panels in over top of them.  There will be a few feet left over for the panels, but unless you go 90 miles an hour, and through a ravine where they bounce REALLY BAD, they won't kink and you can use them.   A short bed truck is what  6-6 & a half feet, then the tailgate, so at least 8 feet.  2 2x4's at 8 feet put half way in the bed will give you another 3-4 feet on the end so there will only be a few feet hanging off with no support.  Have something heavy to sit on the panels up at the cab part of the bed, and use a tiedown strap or a couple of bungees to hold them tight down at the tailgate.  He//, I went and got 6 hog panels, on the flat bed bale truck.... put the 2 arms down that lifts up the bales of hay only one would go under since they only squeeze together so far (hog panels are only about 39 inches not 48)  and used a couple of bungee straps to hold them in place on the one arm, and came home 20 miles with at least 4 feet hanging completely off.... put a flag on the end so no one runs into them.


----------



## farmerjan

Have hauled several home over the years like @thistlebloom  says.  They are bowed up in the middle but the ends are 8 ft apart.  I've never had a short bed full size  p.u.
Put some in my little truck one time;  old towels on the roof, over the cab, bungees to the stake pockets in the bed and baling twine to the front bumpers; baling twine to the tailgate arms;  had the tailgate open and they came even with the cab/windshield.


----------



## Xerocles

farmerjan said:


> He//, I went and got 6 hog panels, on the flat bed bale truck.... put the 2 arms down that lifts up the bales of hay only one would go under since they only squeeze together so far (hog panels are only about 39 inches not 48)  and used a couple of bungee straps to hold them in place on the one arm, and came home 20 miles with at least 4 feet hanging completely off.... put a flag on the end so no one runs into them.


  Law enforcement is supposed to be pretty lax around here, but you're trying to get me arrested, aren't you? That would be 8 ft BEYOND my tailgate, dropped down. Not sure even the "good ole boy" deputies around here could look the other way on THAT one.


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## farmerjan

What is the legal limit for something that hangs out the back of a vehicle?  I have no clue.  I just do what seems sensible, and all of our "law" doesn't seem to bother us unless it looks to be really stupid or dangerous.  But we are in an area with alot of farmers and I guess they just look to make sure it is not too "crazy"...... But if there are very many then I usually take the truck and cattle trailer and get stuff loaded in it.  That's an idea.... got anyone close with a cattle trailer making a trip to sell any cattle any time soon?  Get them to carry the panels back on their return trip and just pay them some gas money......


----------



## Xerocles

farmerjan said:


> What is the legal limit for something that hangs out the back of a vehicle?  I have no clue.  I just do what seems sensible, and all of our "law" doesn't seem to bother us unless it looks to be really stupid or dangerous.  But we are in an area with alot of farmers and I guess they just look to make sure it is not too "crazy"...... But if there are very many then I usually take the truck and cattle trailer and get stuff loaded in it.  That's an idea.... got anyone close with a cattle trailer making a trip to sell any cattle any time soon?  Get them to carry the panels back on their return trip and just pay them some gas money......


Yeah, mentioned that already. Don't "need" these until sometime in the spring, and I have a wonderful neighbor with a trailer.....next time he's in the vicinity of TSC with his trailer. Was only brainstorming, because of a fit of pique I was going through.


----------



## thistlebloom

Truly easy to do it the way we do.


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## Xerocles

FINALLY! Got all the trees cleared from the garden plot. I got tired of fighting chainsaws. I bought a new one. First NEW new chainsaw I've ever owned. All my life, I thought it was normal to spend more time working ON the saw than working WITH the saw. It absolutely wasn't in the budget, but I am SO happy I made this purchase. I kinda went out on a limb, and got a 40v electric. It cuts better than my gas one. Cut 8 trees (most small but one about 14"), limbed, and almost got firewood cut on one charge. Glad it ran outta juice, cause I was tired. And not a "pull" done and not a (expletive deleted) on the day!
Now if it will just stop raining long enough to put the hay on the ground. I think the tractor would just compact the mud too much right now.


----------



## Mike CHS

That's a. good excuse for a new tool.


----------



## Beekissed

Yes, good excuse!


----------



## Mini Horses

My daughter has a battery one, unsure of size.  But, she's had it a couple of years and I love it.   It works very well!!   She has 2 batteries, so it works as long as WE want to....  She cuts a lot, has a gas splitter, heats mostly all wood.


----------



## Baymule

Our son bought a battery chainsaw and is pleased with it. Congrats on your NEW chainsaw!


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## Xerocles

HOORAY! I finally got the hay down. Less than 12" in places, more in others. I'll let it settle for a day or two and work it with the pitchfork. Got two partial rolls to fill in as/when needed.




BUT.....Am I too late? Took this on the way back to the house.



And there were two groups within 4 feet, also in full bloom.
Gotta get those seeds going NOW!


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## thistlebloom

I know nothing about your climate, but my daffs and tulips come up well before it's time to plant. But if you are starting from seed, then yeah, you better get things rolling.


----------



## Baymule

Bulb flowers will bloom even through frost. Veggies won't make it through a frost. Do you have a place set up in the house to start seeds? Haha, we have a garden tub. I have literally made it a garden tub by putting flats of started seeds in it with 4' fluorescent shop lights over it.


----------



## Xerocles

The garden is progressing. I installed the bathtub for the ducks....though they won't need it for awhile. They are supposed to arrive today. Day-olds. Their night time sleeping box is almost finished. Still got to fence in the garden, but will have that done before they're big enough to go outside.
Started some tomatoes and peppers two days ago. On the heating mat, in the plastic germination thing. Got the light in place for when they germinate.
I'm intimidated. 500 sq ft of garden. WAY to big for what I need or want. And no idea of what or how to lay it out. Graph paper done with outlines made...but staring at a blank otherwise. What to put where? Sigh!
Yippee! At least the worms are excited. I had to dig a 6 inch square hole associated with the bathtub. 3 inches deep. Found 12 worms just in that little hole. They' re working their butts off, if I ever decide to get busy doing MY part.


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## thistlebloom

This is your first year for this garden. I wouldn't lose any sleep over the layout. Unless you are completely dependent on it for food, (probably not the case, right?) this year is going to be a learning curve. Don't put a lot of pressure on yourself. Nobody expects you to be Martha Stewart.  😁
So just plant it and tend it and enjoy the process. Next year you'll have a better idea about what things work.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

Xerocles said:


> What to put where? Sigh!



Vining plants will spread far and wide.  Most respond well to a good trellis.

Tall plants will shade short plants.  Sometimes that's a good thing - sometimes not so much.


----------



## Jesusfreak101

Add some strawberries and blueberries  okay all things berries, and fruit trees make it a paradise then also you can sell some as organic. Have fun with it oh and add some nice flowering plant to increase pollinators visits more of them mean more veggies 😁


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## Xerocles

I knew I would catch mortal heck if I didnt do pictures, so here are the newest additions, the runner ducks. 5. Oh, and yes I know they're on cardboard. And I know it's bad for their feet. I learned a couple of interesting things about ducks today. For the 1st 2-3 days, you need paper over the litter. Otherwise they will eat the litter instead of their food. #2, I put rocks in their waterer, because otherwise they put their whole bill underwater and drown. I guess ducks aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer?


----------



## Baymule

When I have had ducks, I used a plastic gallon milk jug to give them water. They are so messy, it cuts down on the mess. Cut small holes (baby duck head sized) in the sides of the milk jug. Then the duckling can stick their heads in but not climb in and splash the water all over places you didn't even know existed. You can use the same jug idea for a feeder for ducks and chickens too.


----------



## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> I'm intimidated. 500 sq ft of garden. WAY to big for what I need or want. And no idea of what or how to lay it out. Graph paper done with outlines made...but staring at a blank otherwise. What to put where? Sigh!



If you study the sunlight patterns in your garden, you might want to consider taller veggies in the "back" so they won't over shade smaller veggies....or use their shade to provide for things like lettuces and greens that tend to bolt in hotter weather.  

Filling space is easier if you intersperse strips of flowers within your veggies, which provides pollinator attraction and cover for beneficial species, as well as a sacrifice area for those that are not so beneficial.  

Vines always take up way more space than you could ever imagine, with some vines traveling 25-30 ft across a garden, so consider that as well.  Corn will take up a lot of space if you are planting that, but you can plant your squash and pumpkins, even your pole beans, within it, if you want to.  

If you like asparagus, consider planting that now, as you need to let them grow for a couple of years to let the roots strengthen before you can get a good crop off them.   I'd dedicate part of your space to perennial veggies such as those, which will narrow your space considerably.   If you plant raspberries, remember they spread each year and take up a lot of space in that way too.   

Pretty soon you'll be thinking you don't have enough space!


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> I knew I would catch mortal heck if I didnt do pictures, so here are the newest additions, the runner ducks. 5. Oh, and yes I know they're on cardboard. And I know it's bad for their feet. I learned a couple of interesting things about ducks today. For the 1st 2-3 days, you need paper over the litter. Otherwise they will eat the litter instead of their food. #2, I put rocks in their waterer, because otherwise they put their whole bill underwater and drown. I guess ducks aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer?
> View attachment 70872View attachment 70873


You can use puppy pads from dollar tree for their bedding.  Works great and makes clean up a snap.  The rocks are great.  I did have one duckling drown once, and he was quite old....only thing we could figure, he got trampled?  We was 4 weeks.  As for the bath tub.  Are you planning to have a small filter for it?  Let me warn you.  When you put clean water in for ducks, the very second they get in it the6 will poop, a lot.  Within an hour it’s gross, and that it asking for bacteria in their eyes, etc.  I could tell you stories of how I had to treat eye issues.  You could get a small pump for a fountain, in expensive..and it should filter the tub just fine, and keep the ducks healthy and you won5 be scooping dirty water.  This is just a bit of what I’ve learned from experience.  When I had to trap the snapping turtles out of th3 pond, the ducks had to use many many baby pools.  I was changin* water  like crazy.  Drove a Chris nuts.  But, the ducks knewit was dangerous in the water and didn’t touch the pond until loooong after th3 turtles were gone.  We will have  to fish them out again before I get some ducks.  What kind of runners are they?  They are cuties!!  Please keep taking pictures.  I miss my ducks!


----------



## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> I knew I would catch mortal heck if I didnt do pictures, so here are the newest additions, the runner ducks. 5. Oh, and yes I know they're on cardboard. And I know it's bad for their feet. I learned a couple of interesting things about ducks today. For the 1st 2-3 days, you need paper over the litter. Otherwise they will eat the litter instead of their food. #2, I put rocks in their waterer, because otherwise they put their whole bill underwater and drown. I guess ducks aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer?
> View attachment 70872View attachment 70873



You simplest water solution for ducks is a bucket with duck nipples on the bottom of it....and that bucket can be anything, a milk jug, pop bottle, etc.   You can get duck nipples on Amazon.  Unless you are feeding wet feed, they won't need to rinse their bills this early on in the game, though they love to.  

For bedding, I generally use what's in the chicken coop....leaves and such.   They will dabble in them but they won't consume them.  Make it nice and thick and there's no cleaning necessary, just give them plenty of space and they will move the bedding enough that they bury their own poop.   I've had these ducks here for a year now and I've yet to see any of their poop...seriously.   Not a single one.   





Or even cup nipple drinkers, where they get to rinse a little but its not such a huge mess....these are my favorite for ducks.   Fresh water, clean all the time, easy to dispense..even for the dim witted ones.  Either of these can be screwed into any water holding receptacle and sealed with calk to prevent leaks.


----------



## High Desert Cowboy

this was my set up for the first few days when I got my runner ducks back when.  You’ll notice the cardboard and newspaper, as long as your changing it regularly you’ll be ok.  Mine graduated to a Rubbermaid tote with hay and newspaper with a heat lamp over it and they did just fine as long as Ichanged it daily.  Like @Baymule said, a milk jug with holes cut in it works great.  I cut two holes they could get their little heads in and at a height they could get to water, and I just cut the holes bigger as they got bigger.  That jug was with them up until they could safely drink from a rubber feed pan I used as my water trough.  I’d read somewhere that ducks need to be able to submerge their whole bill in water to clean their nostrils so I chose that pan because it allowed that.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Last year when I got my ducklings I used these giant sheets of paper that I got for free from our local paper mill, with card board underneath, then hay on top.  Everyone on BYC said to use the puppy pads...so, I was thinking of trying it?  But I will say, my duckies didn’t really love nibbling on the hay and playing with it.  @Beekissed ...wait one second..you’ve had ducks for a year..you just keep throwing in hay..,you never see poop, and it doesn’t smell???  What?!?,??  I was mucking, and mucking, and mucking.  I was in over my eyes with poop.  I realize, I had 43 ducks...but even when I weaned it down to reasonable numbers, I still had to muck a lot!  I’m thinking of getting 4...just 4.  The added work is my biggest hesitation.  Where are you keeping them?


----------



## Beekissed

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Last year when I got my ducklings I used these giant sheets of paper that I got for free from our local paper mill, with card board underneath, then hay on top.  Everyone on BYC said to use the puppy pads...so, I was thinking of trying it?  But I will say, my duckies didn’t really love nibbling on the hay and playing with it.  @Beekissed ...wait one second..you’ve had ducks for a year..you just keep throwing in hay..,you never see poop, and it doesn’t smell???  What?!?,??  I was mucking, and mucking, and mucking.  I was in over my eyes with poop.  I realize, I had 43 ducks...but even when I weaned it down to reasonable numbers, I still had to muck a lot!  I’m thinking of getting 4...just 4.  The added work is my biggest hesitation.  Where are you keeping them?



Yeah....gotta think of scale...I only had 5 ducks, now only 3.   Also, my ducks free range most of their time and any time they've been confined it was in the garden, which is also a large space filled with hay.  So even in the garden, in the brooder, even, they've had so much space and litter that I never got to see a poop.    Now, if I had as many as you have, I'd see plenty of poop.     

Got to think of quality of quantity when it comes to livestock....you'll have healthier animals if they aren't overstocked on static runs and paddocks.  When you see too much poop mounting up, that's when you know you have too little space or too many animals~or both.  Then the meds come out and it never seems to end.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Beekissed said:


> Yeah....gotta think of scale...I only had 5 ducks, now only 3.   Also, my ducks free range most of their time and any time they've been confined it was in the garden, which is also a large space filled with hay.  So even in the garden, in the brooder, even, they've had so much space and litter that I never got to see a poop.    Now, if I had as many as you have, I'd see plenty of poop.
> 
> Got to think of quality of quantity when it comes to livestock....you'll have healthier animals if they aren't overstocked on static runs and paddocks.  When you see too much poop mounting up, that's when you know you have too little space or too many animals~or both.  Then the meds come out and it never seems to end.


I had a big space, according to how much square footage you need per duck...half of a semi trailer.  But, I originally was mucking daily...too much work.  A friend told me to layer bedding thicker, and do it weekly.  That helped, but...you’re right...just too many ducks.


----------



## Beekissed

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I had a big space, according to how much square footage you need per duck...half of a semi trailer.  But, I originally was mucking daily...too much work.  A friend told me to layer bedding thicker, and do it weekly.  That helped, but...you’re right...just too many ducks.View attachment 70937View attachment 70938View attachment 70939View attachment 70940View attachment 70941View attachment 70942



And no good ventilation....that factors in too.  With that much moisture in an area, you've got to have some big, open ventilation to get the humidity and ammonia lifted up and out.   The same sq ft that may..and often does not...work with chickens would never apply to ducks due to all the water issues.  

I ignore the whole sq. ft. per bird thing, as it's highly inaccurate...whoever came up with it was just using it to justify overstocking their dwellings and runs.   I've seen what it looks like when you have the "correct" footage and it's much as you see here....impossible to keep clean, lots of picking on one another(at least, in chicken flocks) and no different levels of being~hay bales, roosts or other ways of getting out of the muck.   

That's where infection comes to live.


----------



## Xerocles

DUCKS! What a PITA! Just in case you're wondering why I'm talking about ducks in a thread titled "my garden", six months ago I had no plans or aspirations to have ducks. I thought people who raised ducks were a little weird ( @Duckfarmerpa1  ). But I decided to do a "Ruth Stout" type garden. No till, 12 inches deep in hay. And someone told me that the biggest drawback to this type garden is lots of bugs, slugs, and small pests (mice). And that I needed runner ducks, which were developed in Indo China especially for gardening, with voracious appetites for such vermin, light of weight and with a body style least likely to trample plants.
Thus...runner ducks. 
Now, I'm not an experienced farmer/gardener. Began a year ago with 6 chickens. Day olds. A breeze. Nothing to this animal husbandry thing. Minimal mess, minimal work. And practically free eggs. Biggest headache? How to get rid of the eggs. I pickled 2 dozen yesterday. Still have 5 dozen on the counter or in the fridge. The few people I know here look the other way when they see me, cause they know I'm gonna ask if they need more eggs yet.
Anyhow, back to the ducks. Got them a week ago. I was prepared. Had all the stuff from the chicks. I thought. Chicks. So cute. So friendly. Changed the whole litter maybe 3 times before they moved outside. Every day or so, maybe a big spoonful of litter around the waterer. Ducks? Complete litter change daily! Filling the waterer 2/3 times a day...because most of it was going onto the litter. Finally took the advice of folks here about a milk jug with holes. Better, but STILL making a huge mess! And they (ducks) are terrified! Chicks? So cute. So tame. Pick them up, a few peeps, settled down and would even take naps on my lap. Ducks? Freak out whenever I walk into the room. Struggling to climb the walls of the brooder. Fighting like heck when I try to pick them up. NEVER settling down. Frantic to get away. And remember, this is only one week in. I shudder when I think of what might be in store for me in the coming weeks.
Oh. The garden (the real purpose of this thread). The tub is ready (ducks...bah). The duck house is finished. The hay seems to be doing its job. No weeds, although a copious amount AROUND the garden. Planted the blackberry bush. The blueberry bush. Got Sugar Snap peas planted, but they haven't sprouted. Lettuce, ditto. Tomatoes and sweet peppers surviving in the tray. Plenty of other seeds ready to start, but don't know weather patterns yet, so I'll plant late rather than early.
Hopefully start on posts for deer fencing tomorrow.
Oh, my initial opinion still stands. Although I am one now, DUCK PEOPLE ARE WEIRD!


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Beekissed said:


> And no good ventilation....that factors in too.  With that much moisture in an area, you've got to have some big, open ventilation to get the humidity and ammonia lifted up and out.   The same sq ft that may..and often does not...work with chickens would never apply to ducks due to all the water issues.
> 
> I ignore the whole sq. ft. per bird thing, as it's highly inaccurate...whoever came up with it was just using it to justify overstocking their dwellings and runs.   I've seen what it looks like when you have the "correct" footage and it's much as you see here....impossible to keep clean, lots of picking on one another(at least, in chicken flocks) and no different levels of being~hay bales, roosts or other ways of getting out of the muck.
> 
> That's where infection comes to live.


There another window on the other side that you can’t see in the picture.  We did ok with the ventilation, but, it was hard in the winter with so many drakes, and the mess.  I have an order in for 4...just 4 nice little ducks this time!


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## Jesusfreak101

That's a lot of ducks


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## Beekissed

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> There another window on the other side that you can’t see in the picture.  We did ok with the ventilation, but, it was hard in the winter with so many drakes, and the mess.  I have an order in for 4...just 4 nice little ducks this time!



You windows are up high?  Need ventilation around the floor level to get good air in and allow it to flow upward and out your upper ventilation.   Learned that many years ago when I first started DL.....I had one whole side of the coop in windows, but couldn't get the moisture up and out.   So, I opened another hole in the opposite side....BIG window.   Didn't make a bit of difference.   Also had the pop door open all the time but it was located clear across the coop from most of the nightly deposits.  

It wasn't until I opened up a small square at the bottom, under the roosts, to connect two coops, one of which was designated a broody coop and the whole side of that coop was open air.   That one foot square hole created a different flow of air in the coop and all my moisture/humidity issues went away....rooster stopped having frost bite, the bedding wasn't stinking and wet anymore and the coop seemed much warmer, even though it was still below freezing outside each night.   It was a happy accident and one I've remembered to repeat.  

Since then I make it a point to have a pop door under the roosts as my cross ventilation for winter time, which allows the good air in at just the right place.  If I couldn't put a pop door there for some reason, I'd just open up a similar sized opening and cover with hardware wire for the same level of intake.  

Now, even though my coop is even MORE open air in the winter months, with that kind of ventilation and the DL, my temps at roost level are usually 10 degrees warmer than what's going on outside.   The cool air comes in and lifts the warm air from the DL up and out, right past the chickens....and my thermometer.   So, even though the DL is very moist~intentionally so nowadays~the humidity is constantly flowing up and out.  

It's a cool trick.   Most folks are scared of having passive airflow at floor level in the winter months, afraid their birds will have a draft on them, but arranging the ventilation so the air is passive instead of just whistling through there when the wind blows, keeps that from happening.   It actually keeps the flock warmer rather than colder.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Jesusfreak101 said:


> That's a lot of ducks


There’s 43 there...I got up to 51, but only for a week.  They were call ducks and too loud for Chris so we gave them to my friend’s petting zoo.  No ducks now.  But, I’m getting 4 Muscovies in two weeks.  The lady is giving me first pick.  I’m hoping for a lavender.  But, I think that’s a decscent number?  Not much work, but I still get some ducks...they don’t quack, so no noise for Chris


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## Duckfarmerpa1

@Beekissed ...ok, i have airflow below the bottom of the nesting boxes in the chicken coop.  But i need it in the duck barn too?  Makes perfect sense.  the bedding did get trashed rather fast and I worked too hard with my ducks.  But, the ducks we get aren’t goin* in the barn....I don’t want to cut a hole in the bottom of the barn wall, because the barn is going to be used to farrow pigs, for goats, etc...and a low window would mean trouble.  I foresee us just building a small coop to fit about 10 ducks.  Because...we’ll, I could see me letting the new ducks set on eggs next year...sell most of the ducklings, but keep a couple.  But I don’t ever want more than 8...but, I’ll make it big enough for 10.  Do I need vents at the top too?  Or jus5 the bottom?


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## Jesusfreak101

Ducks are able to climb ramps if you wanted it high lol don't ask but they can also climb to the top of a round bale. They decent climbers.


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## Beekissed

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> @Beekissed ...ok, i have airflow below the bottom of the nesting boxes in the chicken coop.  But i need it in the duck barn too?  Makes perfect sense.  the bedding did get trashed rather fast and I worked too hard with my ducks.  But, the ducks we get aren’t goin* in the barn....I don’t want to cut a hole in the bottom of the barn wall, because the barn is going to be used to farrow pigs, for goats, etc...and a low window would mean trouble.  I foresee us just building a small coop to fit about 10 ducks.  Because...we’ll, I could see me letting the new ducks set on eggs next year...sell most of the ducklings, but keep a couple.  But I don’t ever want more than 8...but, I’ll make it big enough for 10.  Do I need vents at the top too?  Or jus5 the bottom?



You'll need the same sort of ventilation for the pigs and goats, so you might as well do it now....hog panels are your friend and can provide an adequate barrier for any low ventilation you create.   Those animals create even more moisture than do the birds and pigs get pneumonia pretty easily in moist, stale air.  In fact, an open air situation works best for most farm animals when it comes to barns, as humidity and stale air is more of an enemy to good health than a cold wind.  

Ideally, for a coop, you really need adjustable ventilation at all levels to be able to provide proper airflow at different times of the year.   Most folks won't tell you that because they follow what they read in books about coops rather than what actually works well.   Same with the square footage....don't listen to the books and err on the side of TOO much rather than what is allowable.   Even if you free range all year round, there may be times when the snow or cold is to much that the flock are confined to the coop for a few days....good idea to have more room than too little.


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## thistlebloom

@Xerocles , we're going to need some pictures of your duck garden when you get them installed out there. 
Is your blueberry planted out in the garden area? I just wondered since you have clay soil, blueberries like moist soil, but not wet feet. They have a shallow netted root system, so your hay mulch should be about right for them. 

P.S I'm not sure you can blame ducks for any weirdness you may be exhibiting. 😄


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## Xerocles

thistlebloom said:


> @Xerocles , we're going to need some pictures of your duck garden when you get them installed out there.
> Is your blueberry planted out in the garden area? I just wondered since you have clay soil, blueberries like moist soil, but not wet feet. They have a shallow netted root system, so your hay mulch should be about right for them.
> 
> P.S I'm not sure you can blame ducks for any weirdness you may be exhibiting. 😄


It will be a few weeks before the ducks are fledged enough to move to the garden. Just starting to reduce heat lamp time. But that gives me time to get the deer fencing up. Ducks only need 24" fence to stay in. That would be quick & easy. But to keep the deer out...more like 24'? Going with 7'. But a little more trouble to install than 24". Pictures WILL follow when all is ready.
Blueberry. Yes, in the garden. And we've had an INCREDIBLE amount of rain this year (I have water standing in my back yard and I live on a pretty steep hill). At least it is planted at the highest part of the garden,so hopefully will not keep the roots too wet.
And I need to blame my weirdness on something. Since I don't have goats for a scapegoat, the ducks are elected.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> It will be a few weeks before the ducks are fledged enough to move to the garden. Just starting to reduce heat lamp time. But that gives me time to get the deer fencing up. Ducks only need 24" fence to stay in. That would be quick & easy. But to keep the deer out...more like 24'? Going with 7'. But a little more trouble to install than 24". Pictures WILL follow when all is ready.
> Blueberry. Yes, in the garden. And we've had an INCREDIBLE amount of rain this year (I have water standing in my back yard and I live on a pretty steep hill). At least it is planted at the highest part of the garden,so hopefully will not keep the roots too wet.
> And I need to blame my weirdness on something. Since I don't have goats for a scapegoat, the ducks are elected.



You really, really don't need to put up 7 ft fences to keep out deer.   A single strand of hotwire about knee height will keep them all out, especially if you keep it hot.   You don't have to bait the line or anything, just keep it  hot.   Deer like to investigate any obstacle before deciding to hop over to the food on the other side and they do this with their nose.....get bit and never try it again.   Don't try to bait it or flag it for good visibility...they don't need that.   They also can blunder into it and get bit where the hair is thinner around the legs, which is also effective to keep them avoiding that plot of land.  

We used this very type of fencing for 35 plus years here without a single deer getting in the garden....and we've had as many as 14 deer grazing in the yard right outside the garden.   It works and it works very well.   Nowadays I fence out chickens and dogs, so can't use that very simple but effective solution, but I would if it weren't for that.   

Saves you money, time and a lot of heartache.


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## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> You really, really don't need to put up 7 ft fences to keep out deer.   A single strand of hotwire about knee height will keep them all out, especially if you keep it hot.   You don't have to bait the line or anything, just keep it  hot.   Deer like to investigate any obstacle before deciding to hop over to the food on the other side and they do this with their nose.....get bit and never try it again.   Don't try to bait it or flag it for good visibility...they don't need that.   They also can blunder into it and get bit where the hair is thinner around the legs, which is also effective to keep them avoiding that plot of land.
> 
> We used this very type of fencing for 35 plus years here without a single deer getting in the garden....and we've had as many as 14 deer grazing in the yard right outside the garden.   It works and it works very well.   Nowadays I fence out chickens and dogs, so can't use that very simple but effective solution, but I would if it weren't for that.
> 
> Saves you money, time and a lot of heartache.


Thanks for the tip. I'll try it. Makes life a lot simpler (and less expensive). I already have a 12v fence charger that I had purchased when I still planned on getting goats. That plus I'm STILL going to invest in a solar powered motion detector LED flood light for the garden.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

You can definitely blame ducks for a ton of stuff..they are very crazy!!  But, they are very sweet too!! My new Muscovies are just hatching...waiting for the last batch to see if there’s a lavender....then I’m only getting FOUR...not 43!!


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## thistlebloom

Xerocles said:


> Thanks for the tip. I'll try it. Makes life a lot simpler (and less expensive). I already have a 12v fence charger that I had purchased when I still planned on getting goats. That plus I'm STILL going to invest in a solar powered motion detector LED flood light for the garden.



The goats are not happening then? I wondered if you had bought CP's.


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## Xerocles

thistlebloom said:


> The goats are not happening then? I wondered if you had bought CP's.


I still need, and quite frankly would love to get goats. But you guys have talked me out of having them (and you are usually such _enablers). _Seems that for every pleasant thing I read about goats, there are about 10 negative things. Aside from their tendency to escape (which I think I could control) there is the hoof trimming, horn trimming, fecal exams, worm loads, kidding problems, milking issues, feeding/digestive issues...more, but these come readily to mind. I'm here for the fun aspect of having animals. I don't mind a modicum of effort or even some problems, but from the difficulties I've read about on BYH, goats are just too time, effort, and worry intensive to make a fit on my little piece of ground.
But it all balances out. Originally I had only planned on chickens, rabbits , and goats. So I ended up with chickens, rabbits, and ducks. Now if I could only get the ducks to clear brush!


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## Jesusfreak101

Lol funny part is goats will eat everything you don't want them to eat first before they eat what you want and something they just refuse to eat. Take hay for example i got cow/horse quality hay a giant round bale they refuse to touch it. When they first got here I was all excited cause they did eat some now nothing. I had to go buy the green square bales of hay that they like however they still waste alot but the ducks use the waste for laying so whatever.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

@Jesusfreak101 is sooo right about them being finicky eaters.  My goats will choose a pice of grass, but not eat it all the way down.  Same with hay...if it touches the ground...forget it..unless I’m putting a new bale up.  They eat the bases of our pine trees and Chris tells me to make them stop?  Yeah right!  He needs to wrap the orange fencing around them somehow?  But, it’s a lot of trees, and they are really big!  But, @Xerocles ...goats are truly wonderful animals who give the love you give right back...unlike chickens, bunnies and , yes, even my ducks.  But, if you’re not up for all the time and work...as you clearly have learned, there is a lot...then I’m glad you realized it before you got them and then regretted your decision.  Maybe some day...just get two...no kidding or milk8ng.....


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## Beekissed

Hair sheep....as close as you can get to brush eating like goats but a whole lot easier to keep in fencing, keep alive and have very little problems with lambing, living, eating, etc.   Smart as tacks, too.   They make me smile every single day with their great personalities and intelligent reactions.


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## Xerocles

Many times over I have said I don't have predators on my land. And just as many times, you guys have told me that they will come.
First predator showed up. Yesterday morning the temporary fence in the garden was collapsed, and the leftover duck food was eaten. (Ducks safely closed up in their house.) 
Nyx went crazy last night. I went out with the spotlight, shined the tree where she was freaking out, but couldn't find anything. She stayed awake all night, barking. This morning after I got up, she was still going strong. I went out with the binoculars and finally found Ricky way up in the tree. Nyx and I convinced him to never bother our property or animals again. 
Thanks all for the warning. Constant vigilance.


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## Jesusfreak101

Okay I need a refresher whose this Ricky???


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## Beekissed

Ricky Raccoon, I presume!      If you grow it, they will come......      That's a good dog you've got there!   Got a pic of your dog?


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## Sheepshape

Snakeshead fillies just coming into bloom (wild flower)


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## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> Ricky Raccoon, I presume!      If you grow it, they will come......      That's a good dog you've got there!   Got a pic of your dog?


Ricky raccoon indeed. This picture is from last year. Another of her trophies. You don't want a picture of her from this morning. A little too graphic. Today she is black and white and red all over. ( none of the red is hers by the way)


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## Xerocles

Silly me...I forgot to post the pic.


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## Xerocles

@Sheepshape I am so glad you posted a picture are the Snakehead Lily. It's gorgeous. I've never seen one before. You listed it as a wildflower, but my research shows it is from Europe and Northern Asia. I can find no reference to it being an invasive species. Yours just must be a garden escapee.
I find no references of anyone who has raised it in the southeastern United States. Only the North, and some in California. I will have some by next year. Thank you.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> Silly me...I forgot to post the pic.
> 
> View attachment 71900


That is one GOOD dog!!!  I really need a good critter dog, especially a snake dog....really need a snake dog.   Worth their wt. in gold, a good varmint dog for a homestead.   And she's beautiful too, which is a bonus!


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## Sheepshape

Xerocles said:


> You listed it as a wildflower, but my research shows it is from Europe and Northern Asia. I can find no reference to it being an invasive species. Yours just must be a garden escapee.


I'm from wales, Xerocles, and these are wild here, though lots of us have them in the garden.  These are growing wild on a bank, but are quite close to the house.  Nice tough and hardly little plant. Lots of primroses out, too....these are totally wild.

Xeroxles what is that horrid black snake? We are spoilt over here by only having the harmless grass snake, and the mildly venomous (but rare and extremely shy) adder.


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## Xerocles

Sheepshape said:


> I'm from wales, Xerocles, and these are wild here, though lots of us have them in the garden.  These are growing wild on a bank, but are quite close to the house.  Nice tough and hardly little plant. Lots of primroses out, too....these are totally wild.
> 
> Xeroxles what is that horrid black snake? We are spoilt over here by only having the harmless grass snake, and the mildly venomous (but rare and extremely shy) adder.


Ahhhhh.... you are from Wales. I haven't spoken with you before , and your location isn't listed. Stupid arrogant me, I just assumed you were American. Well that explains a lot. Yes, for you, that is a Wildflower. A Google search turns up only one place to purchase these (in the U.S.)...and they import them, I believe, from Holland. But they are beautiful, and I very likely will purchase and plant some, this fall.
The snake? That is my FAVORITE type of snake. DEAD. Actually, I'm not much of a snake fancier. So I can't give you the official species. All my life, they've simply been called black snakes. They're non-venomous, and beneficial in that they eat other vermin. So most farmers and gardeners welcome them. I'm somewhat neutral, and if I see one at a distance, I will let it live. Nyx, the dog, however does not have the same laissez-faire attitude. She killed 5 of them last season. All about the same size, roughly 1 1/2 - 2 meters long. And she is contained in an area only about 150 m by 150 m. But that's her job. Any animal that enters that area, and doesn't live here, doesn't leave. So far, the only animal that has bested her, has been a terrapin. And she worried it for an entire day, before it was finally able to crawl beyond her barrier. Harmless or otherwise, I refuse to get involved with the rescue of the visiting animal. She is doing her job, and I don't want to confuse her. She is very good at discerning animals who live here (chickens, ducks, rabbits, her "pets"-she abides without threat) from interlopers. Anything else is a potential threat and she efficiently deals with it. She is Apex. Nature at its finest.


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## Baymule

I had ducks once. That was enough for me. I raised Perkins for the freezer and was more than happy to put them there. I had a trio of runner ducks and gave them away. Chickens are so much easier. 

I forgot, I tried ducks a second time. I got muscovies. My male Great Pyrenees, Trip, ate them. Problem solved.


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## Sheepshape

Xerocles said:


> Ahhhhh.... you are from Wales. I haven't spoken with you before , and your location isn't listed. Stupid arrogant me, I just assumed you were American. Well that explains a lot


That's not arrogance....just the site not displaying my location ....maybe out of fear of the name of my most local town as being LLanfair-ym-Muallt...and don't try saying that after a few shandies unless you are wearing a very long and absorptive bib. But snakehead lilies love our damp, chilly, dull and misty weather (much more than I do).

I quite like snakes, but black snakes somehow look sinister, though I guess it's the brightly coloured ones that we should be wary of.



Baymule said:


> I had ducks once.


The only ducks I have are wild ones...mallards, and they're no trouble (then the mini-lake is a distance from the house). I also have (way too many) chickens.....and half of them are trying to go broody. This morning two hens were sitting atop one group of eggs and rolling in any eggs the other girls had laid. Luckily I have marked the original group otherwise they would end up sitting on hundreds. Chickens are easy to care for, though.


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## animalmom

Just butting in here, regarding the snakehead lilies, here's a website that lists quite a few retailers for the bulbs... one of the retailers even has a white on white version.





__





						Other Suggested 'Fritillaria' varieties
					






					www.gardenia.net
				




Maybe you'll fine it useful.


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## Xerocles

animalmom said:


> Just butting in here, regarding the snakehead lilies, here's a website that lists quite a few retailers for the bulbs... one of the retailers even has a white on white version.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other Suggested 'Fritillaria' varieties
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gardenia.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you'll fine it useful.


Butting in? You're kidding. This is just what I was hoping for. I don't know why I didn't find that site myself. And there's one Farm in North Carolina. I will be able to contact them and see how it handles the weather here. Thank you very much for your help.


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## Sheepshape

I've got the white ones, too...they are still in bud. Some are also a paler purple.


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## Xerocles

The garden is progressing,but not so much as far as getting plants in the ground. I knew from the moment I was told that I needed Runner Ducks, that the garden would have tho be fenced. To contain the ducks, to deter potential predators, and primarily to keep deer from devouring the plants. I fretted many hours as to the best way to accomplish this. My neighbor told me to keep an eye behind me as I planted pepper plants, as the deer would be following along behind eating them as fast as I could put them in the ground, and he had personally seen deer jump a six foot fence from standing still. His only success at gardening was to install solar motion lights on small plots. Hmmmmmm.
Then @Beekissed suggested that a knee high electric fence has kept her garden deer-free for 35 years.
So I'm rolling it all into one package. 2 ft high chicken wire to contain the ducks. (That's about all chicken wire is good for. Fowl containment). Inside the posts. Outside the posts will be double strand electric @ 5 in and 24 in. to deter smaller animals and deer. And a solar motion light to frighten off any late night intruders that Nyx fails to notice. (Or, heaven forbid, at least give them good light to make their foraging easier for them). Short of setting up a guard shack and posting third shift with my shotgun, I really can't imagine more that I can do.
I'm in the process. All the posts have been cut (I am blessed with an abundance of cedar on the property.) Only 8 more posts to set (today if I get off this site and get to work) and then ready for the wire. Although the fence will only be 24", posts are still 18" in the ground with 24" for the corners (and no corner braces...it's only chicken wire). And will have a 40" wide double gate so I can get my garden cart in if I need to, but double so I don't have to worry about gate "sag". Already I have cursed my heavy clay many times, but I have to admit, it is REALLY good for setting posts...like concrete.
And for the inevitable question, YES I will post pictures when it's done.
I do have a question for those familiar with electric. Since I am using deep (at least 12") mulch throughout the garden, do I need to clear it to dirt OUTSIDE the fence to insure good grounding to any animals touching the wire? Or only a thin layer to help retain a more moist ground? Does a thick layer of hay work to insulate and prevent grounding of the wire if contacted?
Enough stalling. Out to fight that auger 8 more times. Roots, rocks, and heavy clay. Thought I was going to break my wrists a couple times in the past two days.


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## Beekissed

Only problem with that combination,  my friend, is that the deer can now easily visualize your fence, therefor have no need to explore it with their noses...they can see it and can easily hop right over it.   Not sure how much success you'll have with that combination unless you bring the SINGLE strand of wire out from the visual chicken wire fence about 5-6 ft.    

If you want to run a lower strand offset on the chicken wire fence, then put a single strand out about 6 ft from that, it may have some success.   Not sure how much success you'll have with the deer with the fence you've described.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> I do have a question for those familiar with electric. Since I am using deep (at least 12") mulch throughout the garden, do I need to clear it to dirt OUTSIDE the fence to insure good grounding to any animals touching the wire? Or only a thin layer to help retain a more moist ground? Does a thick layer of hay work to insulate and prevent grounding of the wire if contacted?



No clearing needed....they will ground just fine, no matter the mulch or hay cover.


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## Xerocles

Bless the little successes. All the fence posts are in! The wire is ordered from TSC for a curbside pickup. Don't know when it'll be available. According to the web site it is in stock. But last time I inquired in person, I was told they don't stock any that length (150') We'll see.
And @Beekissed thank you very much for your input on this. Due to other "complications" I am going to go with the electric attached on the same posts as the poultry netting. And see what happens. Can't place it away from the fence due to property lines. Que sera sera.
Another electric question. The wire will be attached to wooden posts. I know wood is an insulator, but in a downpour, it is wet all the way to the ground. So I am assuming that I  will still need insulated "standoffs"? And the posts are 10ft. Can I get a away with standoffs secured every other post?


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## Mini Horses

First insulators/stand offs come in pkg of 25 generally.   No single buys.   And no, I would not go every other post.  It's better to have one at least every post, esp with 10' spacing.  You need the stability and you don't generally have it "twang" tight,  too easy to break.  Over time, it will sag, also.


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## Xerocles

Mini Horses said:


> First insulators/stand offs come in pkg of 25 generally.   No single buys.   And no, I would not go every other post.  It's better to have one at least every post, esp with 10' spacing.  You need the stability and you don't generally have it "twang" tight,  too easy to break.  Over time, it will sag, also.


Gotcha. Thanks. Will do.


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## Xerocles

Hey, I haven't mentioned my pear trees lately. The one which bloomed really early and got hit with 2 nights in the 20s....blooms held on well for nearly a week afterwards.......but no fruit set. The other, which bloomed two weeks later is now loaded with pears about the size of my little finger. So many I really need to consider knocking some of them off.
So, barring any unforseen circumstances, I'll have plenty of pear butter this fall.


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## Baymule

I love canned pears. I make a light syrup, put a little lemon juice in it and they are so good! I hope you get a good harvest!


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> Bless the little successes. All the fence posts are in! The wire is ordered from TSC for a curbside pickup. Don't know when it'll be available. According to the web site it is in stock. But last time I inquired in person, I was told they don't stock any that length (150') We'll see.
> And @Beekissed thank you very much for your input on this. Due to other "complications" I am going to go with the electric attached on the same posts as the poultry netting. And see what happens. Can't place it away from the fence due to property lines. Que sera sera.
> Another electric question. The wire will be attached to wooden posts. I know wood is an insulator, but in a downpour, it is wet all the way to the ground. So I am assuming that I  will still need insulated "standoffs"? And the posts are 10ft. Can I get a away with standoffs secured every other post?



You'll need insulators on each post...wood isn't a good insulator.


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## Xerocles

Garden infrastructure is a go, practically.  Found the wire. Insulators (on EVERY post) and wire is run. I need clamps to secure the wire to the 3 grounding rods, and hardware to hang the gate (would that be an "essential" trip?) But the control box is hung (in a weather proof box) and ready to set the battery in place.
I have plants ready to go in the ground. Should have transplanted them today (Good Friday). My Grandma ALWAYS planted on Good Friday.






72346[/ATTACH]


Are those BLOOMS about to open on my blackberry bush already?


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## thistlebloom

Looks good!


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## Beekissed

Here's a handy tip with ducks and gardens....don't plant anything next to the fence, as they like to pace that fence all day long and those big feet will trample anything you plant pretty badly.   

Another tip...any seedlings will be consumed pretty quickly by the ducks, so you have to fence those off until they get bigger so the ducks won't eat them.   Deer netting and push in stakes work fine.  

Tip #3....they like to nibble greenery where they swim or drink, so plant some sacrifice greens in that area...actually, it's a good idea to plant some sacrifice greens for them to consume anyway, as they will need that in their diet.  

And tip 4...you may want to just have 2 ducks in a garden that size...I've found that they can damage quite a bit of stuff if they don't have enough green stuff to eat and also with their constant roaming around.  While they are little, it may not cause a problem, but they grow really quickly.   I found my ducks did much better if I only left them in the garden periodically to eat all the pests, then let them out to free range a bit until more bugs moved into the garden, then cycled them back through.   Wash, rinse, repeat.   

Ducks are very much creatures of habit, so they are pretty easy to train to return to a space if they are used to being fed there each evening.


----------



## Sheepshape

Just a picture of white snakeheads in the field as they are just coming into bloom.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Silly me...I forgot to post the pic.
> 
> View attachment 71900


She’s quite a looker..everytime you mention her as a ‘mutt’ I’ve been picturing a 10 lb ball of fur from everywhere.  Kind of like my ****zu...he couldn’t scare a predator to save his life!!  He’s scared of his reflection in the mirror...poor Muggs Mayfield.


----------



## Baymule

We’ve been working like mad in the garden, preparing to plant. We have triple thick cardboard pumpkin boxes laid in one part of the garden, deep covered in mulch and we rolled out weed cloth in a 50’x36’ patch to try it out this year. We have tilled, weeded, and worked in the glorious rich soil it has taken us 6 growing seasons to transform from beach sand to the dark loam we now have. I have plants to set out and seeds to plant. So far I have broccoli, green onions. Beets, radishes, English peas, mustard greens, and garlic up and growing. Yesterday I picked 3 broccoli leaves, a handful of beet leaves 2 radishes and 3 green onions and made us each a salad. So. Darn. Good!


----------



## Jesusfreak101

Ah see beekiss i was wondering if they would eat plants. Cause my ducks do, my kids got a pair of runners and I was debating about letting them in the garden or not. It's a large area thats isn't solely garden but is was concerned they would eat my plants.


----------



## Mini Horses

I'm jealous -- nothing growing here.   BUT...in my defense, I'm cooler than both of you, I've worked 45 hrs this week, the garden was final tilled yesterday by DS -- THANKS!! -- so I can work in it all weekend.     Since I have started my seedlings very late, I actually bought 6 tomato plants at TSC....something growing!!   I need to see that...& tomato takes longer to mature for eating.   Plus on sale.  All good, right?

@Xerocles  -- look at you go!!   You've got that all ready.   Just how big is it?    I'm way oversize with mine and that is a concern.

I do plan to plant some things for animals feeds  which also work as a cover, so not need for the extreme weed control of rest of garden.  Hope it works -- the plans sound fantastic!   You could do same but, rabbits take far less than my 20 goats!


----------



## Mini Horses

Jesusfreak101 said:


> It's a large area thats isn't solely garden but is was concerned they would eat my plants.



I can tell you chickens will!!   Not so much after the plants get size on them but, new ones -- fair game!   Then, ducks don't want to dig it all up like a hen.


----------



## Jesusfreak101

Lol I have seen that happen with my hen but they also love the veggies they are not allowed in the garden because they are bandits. It's not fun to go pick veggies only to find that all have had half eat by the birds. One of the rooster we had went to the freezer because he had learn to get in there and no matter what we did clipping wings fencing ect he would still get in there and taught the hens they would eat everything.


----------



## animalmom

You know @Sheepshape, you keep posting pictures of the snakeheads I'm just going to have to go get some bulbs.  They are an enticing flower.  Do they spread quickly or are they slower to take over the world?


----------



## Beekissed

Jesusfreak101 said:


> Ah see beekiss i was wondering if they would eat plants. Cause my ducks do, my kids got a pair of runners and I was debating about letting them in the garden or not. It's a large area thats isn't solely garden but is was concerned they would eat my plants.



They will eat tender plants like lettuces and other greens and any small seedlings, but older plants aren't a problem....the only thing is they can be pretty rough on squash leaves when there are squash bug eggs on them.   They will shred them while eating the eggs...which to me is a sacrifice I'm willing to make.   The squash plants will recover from duck nibbles more than they will survive the hoards of squash bugs.  

They never bothered my tomatoes, taters, corn, pumpkins, winter squash plants, flowers, peppers, etc.....basically, anything with a larger, tougher stem and leaf growth wasn't damaged at all.


----------



## Xerocles

Let's reset the scene for my garden. This is not meant to be a garden in the sense many of you think. This is a "pre-garden", a rehearsal for next years garden. The location was chosen because it was the only semi-level spot on the place. It was a crowded copse of saplings, no more than 2 ft apart in all directions. Heavy, sticky clay with only a fraction of an inch of topsoil. I didn't get the saplings cleared until the December timeframe.
I am a city transplant, NO equipment, limited financial buffer, and so little experience (except for ill-planned failures) as to be counted as zero.
The soil needs desperate upgrading before it can grow anything but weeds and vines.
So here I stand. No knowledge, no equipment, and no suitable soil. Faced with a large field of options. Tried containers  last year. Pretty much a failure, because I let other ventures monopolize my attention (infrastructure of the rest of the place). I considered raised beds....but the work involved in making them would be equivalent to the work I am putting into this garden, and not doing anything toward actually improving the land. Short term benefit, nearly instant productivity. But I really don't NEED productivity. It's only me and (pre-Corona days) I could buy such produce as I needed, and probably cheaper than what I will invest in growing my own. Plus, with the learning curve I can already see that, with my lack of knowledge, instant productivity would be a joke anyhow.
My research led me to the Ruth Stout method, somewhat akin to Back to Eden gardening as I read  it. Deep Deep mulch to gradually improve the soil, avoidance of soil disturbance to lessen damage of the microcosm of beneficial organisms near the surface. Water retention, erosion control, weed control, limit of actual physical attention required, and a reduced dependence on chemical compounds. Why not?
Now, it will take years for this to actually work, but again, this is not a "need" except in the psychological sense. I don't have an extended family to feed. Heck, I don't even have friends and neighbors to share any excess that I may produce. Except the chickens and rabbits. And their numbers are so small that they can eat only so many tomatoes.
The plot size is probably average to slightly above average by today's standard for a family garden, but tiny compared to my grandparent's gardens. The shape is trapizoidal (physical limitations). It is 100 ft X 80 ft X 30ft X 60 ft. Without involving advanced mathematics, probably about 350 sq ft. Now I could probably grow all I need in about 50 sq ft, but why not improve the whole area while I'm at it? Someday someone might need and appreciate what I have helped to improve.
This year, each plant will be a "mini" garden. Large hole improved (replacing the existing clay) with compost made last year plus generous helpings of rabbit manure.
But right now, I'm floundering. What to plant, how much to plant, when to plant, how to care for it and probably dozens of other questions that I don't even know to ponder about.
So, it's an experiment...a pre-garden if you will. There is no failure, because there is no goal.  Except learning. Just the beginning steps in a long learning curve.
Oh, and @Beekissed thanks for the tips. #1 no plans to plant next to the fence...need room for my big feet on all sides of the plants. #2 yep already learned about the runner ducks nibbling. Protection already planned for. #3 sacrificial plants. Some suggestions for varieties would be appreciated. #4 I only wanted 2 ducks, but could not locate grown Runners, could not buy sexed ducklings, and only wanted 2 females for eggs AND bug control. No plans to raise them, so why have drakes? Will cull down to two, once I can determine sex.
Question. Right now they're barely a month old and growing. So feeding basically unlimited. But I don't want to turn them into "barn cats" that are over fed and don't catch mice. If they don't keep the garden practically bug free they're useless. But I don't want to starve them either. So when they approach maturity, how much and when do I feed them?
Please keep those tips coming. I need all (and the most trivial) help I can get. You bet they're all read, heeded, and appreciated.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

First of all, that’s a great sized garden!  And, you sound overwhelmed.  I get you there..I OFTEN bite off more than I can chew...not saying that’s your deal, just comparing me.  I think you have a good head start.  You’ve done a lot of research.  I hope the ducks help?  My ducks ruined the garden...yesterday I tried to sell the ducklings and Chris had to actually stop me.  But, I had 43...and, perhaps runners will do just what you intend for them to do?  Wouldn’t that be great if someth went as planned?!  Our soil...ugh. Mostly clay, tons of rocks..the more we till, the more they grow. We do have a few very large gardens...but we were always trying to get away with a small tiller, two bottom plow, a dis. Well, not thisyear Chris went all out. If you were close, I’d give you one of our small tillers..the one works too good..too hard for him handle at times. Plus, we just have to much ground to till b6 hand. Perhaps look online for used equipment..like a tiller. Last year, due to all that rain..we made some raised beds...and my farmer/grower hubby...doesn’t think that counts. But it worked since the ground was too wet. The advantage there..once you make them, you e got them...for awhile? And, if you’re swamped with rain, like last year...the beds work great! As for feeding the ducklings...it’s still way too cold here for little ones..4” of snow yesterday. Are they outside and eating bugs? I had set meal times for my ducks. I actually have a thread on BYC...’are ducks ever NOT hungry’...quite simply..no. The more you feed them from your hand, the more the6 will expect it, and, doesn’t sound like you want them all up in your business? Mine free ranged all through the day.  At nigh5 I gave them a good amount...sometimes I measured, sometimes no...but...a limited amount.  Those feeders where the feed keeps coming out?  In my opinion...not to be used for ducks..a few reasons...they will eat every single drop!  Second, the old metal ones aren’t made with a big enough space for aduck bill to get down to the feed.  I e actually had ducks get their goofy beaks stuck in the feeders.  So, by the time I was ready to sell, them , I had it down to a science...mine didn’t need fed in the morning...just goin* out was enough..in the summertime.  In the winter I let them out, and used a big feeding tray...a pan will do.  Put the feed in there.  When they are done..I take it away, so they can’t poop in it.  Same thing at night.  The crumbles keep them on their toes to get them in and out..but, if you overfeed a duck...what’s that?   My pekins got too big and it was a health issue.  You won5 have that...but, why give them unlimited feed, when they really don’t NEED it is how I see it.  My chickens get unlimited feed, but they know when to eat and when to stop.
pits up to you how you do it..I’m just giving you my experience.  Also, with the drakes..if you have to cull three..you’ll need to get a friend for the one left behind.  They need to be in at least a pair.  But, definitely don’t have more than one drake.  Not with a few ducks.  If your soil is clay, and you say you have no ‘tools’. How do you plan to get it up enough?  This year we are expanding...but, the original garden will still be used.  If it doesn’t grow like two seasons ago...it’s done, I’ll use it for...pigs?    We are starting new gardens..and two are pre-gardens as you say.  We are prepping the soil for...maybe next year?  We might plant a row or two of corn..just to test it out.  As for what to plant...pick veggies that last a long time!!  Butternut squash can be saved in our root cellar for months and months!!  We love them sooo much.  Zucchini no one can screw up.  And one plant yields a lot.  I’d try a variety of tomatoes, to see which take nest in your area?  We are still playing with ours...this year we’re growing those giant sweet orange ones that are supposed to have less acid?  They taste good, arebig, and sell great!!  Plant things that you can feed to the other animals too...dark leafy greens, etc.  cucumber for the chickens...

We start out seeds inside..but our season is much later.  We can’t put anything in the ground until Memorial Day.  Even then we lose some.  The trick is..make sure you don’t start too soon.  If the plant is too tall when you replant it is likely not to be strong enough for the wind.  At least here...it’s terribly windy.  Plus, look at the days to yield.  You don’t want your snap peas to be starting inside, like we did last year, because then they are done way too soon.  Also, last year, we tried a few things we don’t typically eat.  Chris though5 wed have rutabaga our the wazoo.  I was afraid we’d starv3 to death from eating too much. Luckily they did not do well, out of about a million..we got about three.  We also tried new things we don’t typically like from the store.  Amaz the difference when it’s from a garden.  Now, we plant many weird things, so they can sell...it attracts people...but, by doing that we’ve discovered a bunch of veggies we never though5 to try!!
ok, that’s all I can think of now.  Be careful with your fertilizer...last year we got many different advice.  We tried some 19-19-19...seemed to not do well.  But again..depends on the soil.  Ok..enough dirty talk....how about the bunnies??  I haven’t seen that thread moving for a bit?!  Updates please!!  Pictures too!


----------



## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> First of all, that’s a great sized garden!  And, you sound overwhelmed.  I get you there..I OFTEN bite off more than I can chew...not saying that’s your deal, just comparing me.  I think you have a good head start.  You’ve done a lot of research.  I hope the ducks help?  My ducks ruined the garden...yesterday I tried to sell the ducklings and Chris had to actually stop me.  But, I had 43...and, perhaps runners will do just what you intend for them to do?  Wouldn’t that be great if someth went as planned?!  Our soil...ugh. Mostly clay, tons of rocks..the more we till, the more they grow. We do have a few very large gardens...but we were always trying to get away with a small tiller, two bottom plow, a dis. Well, not thisyear Chris went all out. If you were close, I’d give you one of our small tillers..the one works too good..too hard for him handle at times. Plus, we just have to much ground to till b6 hand. Perhaps look online for used equipment..like a tiller. Last year, due to all that rain..we made some raised beds...and my farmer/grower hubby...doesn’t think that counts. But it worked since the ground was too wet. The advantage there..once you make them, you e got them...for awhile? And, if you’re swamped with rain, like last year...the beds work great! As for feeding the ducklings...it’s still way too cold here for little ones..4” of snow yesterday. Are they outside and eating bugs? I had set meal times for my ducks. I actually have a thread on BYC...’are ducks ever NOT hungry’...quite simply..no. The more you feed them from your hand, the more the6 will expect it, and, doesn’t sound like you want them all up in your business? Mine free ranged all through the day.  At nigh5 I gave them a good amount...sometimes I measured, sometimes no...but...a limited amount.  Those feeders where the feed keeps coming out?  In my opinion...not to be used for ducks..a few reasons...they will eat every single drop!  Second, the old metal ones aren’t made with a big enough space for aduck bill to get down to the feed.  I e actually had ducks get their goofy beaks stuck in the feeders.  So, by the time I was ready to sell, them , I had it down to a science...mine didn’t need fed in the morning...just goin* out was enough..in the summertime.  In the winter I let them out, and used a big feeding tray...a pan will do.  Put the feed in there.  When they are done..I take it away, so they can’t poop in it.  Same thing at night.  The crumbles keep them on their toes to get them in and out..but, if you overfeed a duck...what’s that?   My pekins got too big and it was a health issue.  You won5 have that...but, why give them unlimited feed, when they really don’t NEED it is how I see it.  My chickens get unlimited feed, but they know when to eat and when to stop.
> pits up to you how you do it..I’m just giving you my experience.  Also, with the drakes..if you have to cull three..you’ll need to get a friend for the one left behind.  They need to be in at least a pair.  But, definitely don’t have more than one drake.  Not with a few ducks.  If your soil is clay, and you say you have no ‘tools’. How do you plan to get it up enough?  This year we are expanding...but, the original garden will still be used.  If it doesn’t grow like two seasons ago...it’s done, I’ll use it for...pigs?    We are starting new gardens..and two are pre-gardens as you say.  We are prepping the soil for...maybe next year?  We might plant a row or two of corn..just to test it out.  As for what to plant...pick veggies that last a long time!!  Butternut squash can be saved in our root cellar for months and months!!  We love them sooo much.  Zucchini no one can screw up.  And one plant yields a lot.  I’d try a variety of tomatoes, to see which take nest in your area?  We are still playing with ours...this year we’re growing those giant sweet orange ones that are supposed to have less acid?  They taste good, arebig, and sell great!!  Plant things that you can feed to the other animals too...dark leafy greens, etc.  cucumber for the chickens...
> 
> We start out seeds inside..but our season is much later.  We can’t put anything in the ground until Memorial Day.  Even then we lose some.  The trick is..make sure you don’t start too soon.  If the plant is too tall when you replant it is likely not to be strong enough for the wind.  At least here...it’s terribly windy.  Plus, look at the days to yield.  You don’t want your snap peas to be starting inside, like we did last year, because then they are done way too soon.  Also, last year, we tried a few things we don’t typically eat.  Chris though5 wed have rutabaga our the wazoo.  I was afraid we’d starv3 to death from eating too much. Luckily they did not do well, out of about a million..we got about three.  We also tried new things we don’t typically like from the store.  Amaz the difference when it’s from a garden.  Now, we plant many weird things, so they can sell...it attracts people...but, by doing that we’ve discovered a bunch of veggies we never though5 to try!!
> ok, that’s all I can think of now.  Be careful with your fertilizer...last year we got many different advice.  We tried some 19-19-19...seemed to not do well.  But again..depends on the soil.  Ok..enough dirty talk....how about the bunnies??  I haven’t seen that thread moving for a bit?!  Updates please!!  Pictures too!


 Let's see now. I got 5 ducks. I'm going to cull 3. And I need to get a friend for the ONE left behind? No wonder you have so many animals! Your animal math is astounding!! 
For all the rest....thanks, that's what I need.
And a couple new pics in the rabbit thread.


----------



## Mini Horses

If you like our MATH skills -- just wait a while for the gardening ones.     

Fortunately, rabbit poop is good to use at once!   you're in business.  I like to try a "new" something each year but, I always make sure I plant what I like to eat first.   Otherwise, why bother??   So think about it.

Exercise is good in a garden and the FAVORITE is bragging rights.   Yep, only ONE good anything -- all else can fail miserably.   Got that??  All that hay will rot & enhance.  Good.

Now, if all is overcome with weeds, etc. -- you won't be alone, not here.  Nope.  Plenty of us out here will experience this.  I cannot remember a time when I didn't have more weeds than wanted -- EVER, in any garden.

Your experimental garden is good.  At least you won't be disappointed.  LOL     Mine is somewhat experimental this year, also.   Old seeds, new area, didn't have much in garden for a few years now and none last year.  I have great soil but, was a pasture.   Grass!!  We can marvel at any success together.   That's what friends are for!


----------



## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> Some suggestions for varieties would be appreciated. #4 I only wanted 2 ducks, but could not locate grown Runners, could not buy sexed ducklings, and only wanted 2 females for eggs AND bug control. No plans to raise them, so why have drakes? Will cull down to two, once I can determine sex.
> Question. Right now they're barely a month old and growing. So feeding basically unlimited. But I don't want to turn them into "barn cats" that are over fed and don't catch mice. If they don't keep the garden practically bug free they're useless. But I don't want to starve them either. So when they approach maturity, how much and when do I feed them?



Any lettuce type, spinach, bok choi, or any other tender type green will do.   

Take away the unlimited feeding...not good for ducks and it does produce an overly fat duck, which cuts down on laying prowess and willingness to forage much.   Feed once a day and only what they can clean up by midday~ or only feed in the evenings when you want them to come back to the garden to be penned for the night.   When I feed at night, I feed a serving that gives them supper to top off what they foraged in the day and also a little left over for a tiny bit of breakfast...that way you don't have to feed twice, if you feel like you want to do that.   

All birds here get one meal a day and whatever they forage...and a hungry bird hunts the hardest.   Their natural food is way better for them than any grain based feeds we can provide, so keep that in mind.  

Their serving size fluctuates according to high forage months and you'll know how much they need by how much they leave behind each day....that feed pan should look licked clean, no residue still in it by the next day's feeding time.


----------



## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> Any lettuce type, spinach, bok choi, or any other tender type green will do.
> 
> Take away the unlimited feeding...not good for ducks and it does produce an overly fat duck, which cuts down on laying prowess and willingness to forage much.   Feed once a day and only what they can clean up by midday~ or only feed in the evenings when you want them to come back to the garden to be penned for the night.   When I feed at night, I feed a serving that gives them supper to top off what they foraged in the day and also a little left over for a tiny bit of breakfast...that way you don't have to feed twice, if you feel like you want to do that.
> 
> All birds here get one meal a day and whatever they forage...and a hungry bird hunts the hardest.   Their natural food is way better for them than any grain based feeds we can provide, so keep that in mind.
> 
> Their serving size fluctuates according to high forage months and you'll know how much they need by how much they leave behind each day....that feed pan should look licked clean, no residue still in it by the next day's feeding time.


That's what I'm talkin about. Simple. Straightforward. Here's a few ways to accomplish it. Thanks for making this as simple as it should be.
Just to make sure I've got everything though. These ducks are only one month old. Do the same rules still apply?


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## Jesusfreak101

I just give one one feeding as adults a 3quart scoop thats between 10 birds (ducks) they find the rest on their own. Birds seem to eat more then pigs seriously lol


----------



## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> That's what I'm talkin about. Simple. Straightforward. Here's a few ways to accomplish it. Thanks for making this as simple as it should be.
> Just to make sure I've got everything though. These ducks are only one month old. Do the same rules still apply?



Yep.  I feed everything once a day, including day old chicks on up to the dogs.   Streamlines the chores and establishes routines that help train the animals to gather at feeding time from all points on the place.


----------



## Xerocles

Garden infrastructure is 99.99% complete. Fence is up. Electric Fence is up. Wire is securely attached to the grounding rods. Gate is installed. Fence is tested @ 2000-3300 volts. Only thing missing is to put up the trail cam and the solar motion floodlights. Have the trailcam, just need to fetch it. Gotta get the flood light still. But tomorrow SOMETHING is going in the ground. I have about 7 tomato plants that are 6-7" tall. 3 have been sitting ON the ground in the garden for about 5 days and the ducks haven't bothered them. Ducks! They discovered the sugar snap peas. Decimated them (and they were up about 7 inches and beginning to twine onto the trellis.) Ignoring a nice patch of leaf lettuce immediately beside the peas. I went out about 6:30, just looking around. The ducks bills and head past their eyes were RED. I investigated (of course). One spot of peas had not sprouted. I figured to replant one day this week. Maybe they did start sprouting today? The ducks had dug a hole about 4" in diameter and 4 or 5" deep, right in that spot. I caught them red handed.....errrr...headed.
So, I guess everything will be "protected" until it gets more than 6" tall. I say again. I see ONE slug this year and they're OUTTA HERE!


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> That's what I'm talkin about. Simple. Straightforward. Here's a few ways to accomplish it. Thanks for making this as simple as it should be.
> Just to make sure I've got everything though. These ducks are only one month old. Do the same rules still apply?


Same rules as what..too small to eat?


----------



## Sheepshape

Completely out of context....but found this bank of primroses today.....thought you'd like them.









My rams (3 of them) have occupied this area up until today, so clearly they are not sheep food!


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Sheepshape said:


> Completely out of context....but found this bank of primroses today.....thought you'd like them.
> 
> View attachment 72551
> 
> View attachment 72552
> My rams (3 of them) have occupied this area up until today, so clearly they are not sheep food!


Absolutely gorgeous!!  All we see is mud and a dusting of snow...


----------



## Sheepshape

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Absolutely gorgeous!! All we see is mud and a dusting of snow...


I hope things improve for you soon. We had a sea of mud up until a month ago....now it is way too dry and the grass has stopped growing. Our climate is altering fast.....it's difficult to deal with.

A bit more in context with the prior posts....I'm a feeder.....little and often from me. I say it discourages rats, but the truth is that I love to keep checking on my critters and having them VERY tame.


----------



## Xerocles

I feel like I'm moving on slo-mo on my garden. Plant one thing, and wait a few days to see if it survives.Then on to the next. That's OK. Learning valuable lesions for next year. Harvest or no harvest, I will have figured out some things that work, and some that don't.
The remaining 4 ducks seem to be doing fine. But they're ugly. First feathers coming in. They're fawn and white. Right now they just look dirty.
Speaking of needing a bath....how do I get the ducks to swim? Silly question? Maybe not. When they were only a couple weeks old, I put them in MY bathtub...and they had a ball. About 4 times. Torpedoing and everything. Now, in the tub that I went to considerable trouble to install for them, nada. For a week in a row, I made a trail of food up the ramp to the edge of the tub. Ate the food and walked back down. I physically caught them (inside their house....can't get within 5 feet of them otherwise) and gently placed them, some on the "inside" ramp and some actually in the water. Universally acted like they had just landed in Hades and scrambled madly until they escaped (over the sides with a drop to the ground....NOT on my well prepared ramps.
At least after completely devouring my sugar snap peas, they haven't even seemed to nibble at the tomatoes, peppers, leaf lettuce, or cucumbers.
In spite of being ugly, anti-social, pea eaters, at least one of them (I can't tell them apart) has developed an endearing and comical habit. First, you gotta know runner ducks to appreciate this, with their upright posture. One lowers it's breast down to within an inch of the ground, neck outstretched as far as possible, opens it's beak, and runs at top speed (presumably after bugs) about the garden. If nothing else, they've given me a laugh.


----------



## Baymule

Runner ducks are bowling pins on stumpy legs. Yes, they will make you laugh. They will also lay you some delicious big eggs. The benefits of country living! I’m glad that you are enjoying yourself.


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## Beekissed

I've seen other people arrange elevated swimming places for their ducks but I never could get my younger ducks to use them.   Later on, as adults, they will fly up into watering pans and heated buckets  I have elevated purposefully out of their reach, there to take a swim.  

As with most animals, they will do the direct opposite of what you want most of the time.....give them time and make it pretty clear you don't want them in that bathtub and they will be using it on a regular basis.


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## Baymule

I had a bathtub next to the deck for mine. They would telescope up, peer over the edge, looking at the water, telescope down and chatter excitedly. It took them a few weeks to figure out that they could get on the deck and jump in the tub.


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## thistlebloom

I think if you set an example for them they would learn faster.  
Get in there and sing and splash and they won't be able to resist joining you.


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## Beekissed

thistlebloom said:


> I think if you set an example for them they would learn faster.
> Get in there and sing and splash and they won't be able to resist joining you.



We laugh about that....but it's true.   Whenever I want to assure the ducks I've refilled their movable swimming hole, they don't seem to want to try it until I put my hand in it and splash around in the water.   Ducks like routine, so when I move stuff on them, they are wary of it until I show them it's the same water, in the same receptacle, it's just 4 ft away from where it was last.   

If I don't do the splash, they will avoid it all day long and sometimes won't use it at all, but will then go up and fly up into the dog's watering pan to swim there instead.  This is a watering pan that is shallow and sitting up on two stacked tires.   Their portable watering place is a stainless steel sink with a step up to it, so it's not about which is easier, but about what stayed in the same place and didn't scare them.    

Ducks.....gotta love 'em.   My two hens are sitting on nests right now and it seems they've been sitting forever, but at least they chose a safe place to sit(in the coop) and tucked away in a corner.  I love that.


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## Xerocles

thistlebloom said:


> I think if you set an example for them they would learn faster.
> Get in there and sing and splash and they won't be able to resist joining you.


Darn! I should have gotten this advice on Saturday. Since that was international naked gardening day, it would have been the perfect day to try it out. And besides....1st Saturday of the month....that's my day for a bath anyhow.


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## thistlebloom

I didn't say you should do it nekkid. The idea is not to frighten them.


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## B&B Happy goats




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## Xerocles

I found a new curse word to use in public. If I am ever exasperated enough to utter a profanity, I can simply say "Runner Duck!" The jury is in. The verdict has been decided. 
As those who are following this know, I don't know what I'm doing. When I mentioned that I was going to do a 12 inch mulch on my entire garden (working great btw, not a single weed yet) someone told me that I would have bugs, slugs, and vermin out the wazzu, and that I needed Runner ducks to keep them in check. So I got 5 runner ducks. I suppose technically that the ducks are keeping the bugs from decimating my plants. Because the ducks are eating the plants before the bugs get a chance. Peas? Got 7" tall before the ducks discovered them, ate them to the ground, and dug holes to get at the roots. Tomatoes? Planted 10. Put 5 in cages (that's how many I had on hand. They're 12-15 inches tall. The other 5? 4 are single stems, no leaves. One is gone completely. Peppers? All in chicken wire cages, but the leaves nearest the cage are shredded. I am afraid to plant the rest of the garden. I have plants that I started from seed that are in pots and starting to bloom.
The cure is worse than the disease! Now I have to decide what to do with the ducks. They were bought as day-olds in mid March. Too _runner duck_ small to eat. Hate killing viable animals just to bury them. But something has to change! Anybody want some ducks? CHEAP! Like, in free, and I'll deliver? I'm in S.C. Will not consider traveling any further than California to deliver.
A few days ago, one sustained a leg injury. Inside their house. Like couldn't walk injured. My thoughts? Vet? HA! I thought, soon as I have time, I will end your suffering. Well, today it is running around like it never even heard the word injury.
I put more time, effort, and $ into preparing for those ducks than I have for ALL the rest of my garden, figuring it as an investment in the future. Lesson learned. Chemical poisons, here I come.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> I found a new curse word to use in public. If I am ever exasperated enough to utter a profanity, I can simply say "Runner Duck!" The jury is in. The verdict has been decided.
> As those who are following this know, I don't know what I'm doing. When I mentioned that I was going to do a 12 inch mulch on my entire garden (working great btw, not a single weed yet) someone told me that I would have bugs, slugs, and vermin out the wazzu, and that I needed Runner ducks to keep them in check. So I got 5 runner ducks. I suppose technically that the ducks are keeping the bugs from decimating my plants. Because the ducks are eating the plants before the bugs get a chance. Peas? Got 7" tall before the ducks discovered them, ate them to the ground, and dug holes to get at the roots. Tomatoes? Planted 10. Put 5 in cages (that's how many I had on hand. They're 12-15 inches tall. The other 5? 4 are single stems, no leaves. One is gone completely. Peppers? All in chicken wire cages, but the leaves nearest the cage are shredded. I am afraid to plant the rest of the garden. I have plants that I started from seed that are in pots and starting to bloom.
> The cure is worse than the disease! Now I have to decide what to do with the ducks. They were bought as day-olds in mid March. Too _runner duck_ small to eat. Hate killing viable animals just to bury them. But something has to change! Anybody want some ducks? CHEAP! Like, in free, and I'll deliver? I'm in S.C. Will not consider traveling any further than California to deliver.
> A few days ago, one sustained a leg injury. Inside their house. Like couldn't walk injured. My thoughts? Vet? HA! I thought, soon as I have time, I will end your suffering. Well, today it is running around like it never even heard the word injury.
> I put more time, effort, and $ into preparing for those ducks than I have for ALL the rest of my garden, figuring it as an investment in the future. Lesson learned. Chemical poisons, here I come.



I don't think you read everything I said about the ducks in the garden.....when plants are small, they have to be fenced off(a low netting fence will do) until they are bigger.   THEN, I do believe I said 5 ducks would be too many for your space and the lack of other greenery in the space would have them nibbling on even larger plants.    

Here's some free advice:  Don't try something once~the wrong way~and decide it won't work for you.   Folks do that all the time in my world~DL, FF, natural animal care and husbandry, etc.~and then pronounce that it may work at someone else's place but won't work where they live.   This works if you work it. 

I don't run the ducks into the garden until there is adequate bug supplies to keep them busy, I only put a few in at a time...now I only have 3 ducks, so that's easy...and I fence off seedlings until they are so big the ducks can't nibble them to death or trample them with their big ol' feet.  Once they've been run in there for a number of days...and I start to see nibbling of green things that shouldn't be happening...they are back out on the grass to forage.  Wash, rinse, repeat.


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## Mini Horses

OK -- start over mister!   You've been given directions.  LOL

By the way, I don't do ducks.  Garden fenced from chickens, goats & horses.   I do spray with BT, or soap & water for pests.  Plant extra for bugs.   Actually, the tomato hornworms are the most destructive things I've seen.   Oh, yeah, stink bugs!!  And sevin dust helps.   I use a leg of a pantyhose...scoop in the stuff, walk thru and just wiggle that tube and it powders out fine & nice!    Fast & easy.


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## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> I don't think you read everything I said about the ducks in the garden.....when plants are small, they have to be fenced off(a low netting fence will do) until they are bigger.   THEN, I do believe I said 5 ducks would be too many for your space and the lack of other greenery in the space would have them nibbling on even larger plants.
> 
> Here's some free advice:  Don't try something once~the wrong way~and decide it won't work for you.   Folks do that all the time in my world~DL, FF, natural animal care and husbandry, etc.~and then pronounce that it may work at someone else's place but won't work where they live.   This works if you work it.
> 
> I don't run the ducks into the garden until there is adequate bug supplies to keep them busy, I only put a few in at a time...now I only have 3 ducks, so that's easy...and I fence off seedlings until they are so big the ducks can't nibble them to death or trample them with their big ol' feet.  Once they've been run in there for a number of days...and I start to see nibbling of green things that shouldn't be happening...they are back out on the grass to forage.  Wash, rinse, repeat.



"I don't think you read everything I said about the ducks in the garden....." Yeah, I'm a little slow. I need you HERE, to whack me on the back of the head and say "that's not what I said"  

"when plants are small, they have to be fenced off(a low netting fence will do) until they are bigger." To a non-gardener, I need definitions for things like "small" and "bigger". I thought taller than the duck's head was bigger. I guessed that small meant literal seedlings. Remember, I'm greener than my plants.

"THEN, I do believe I said 5 ducks would be too many for your space" Correct. But they only had straight run, and I planned on attrition, and eventual culling of drakes would get me to the two I needed. AND, at 40 lbs of food every 2-3 weeks...are they REALLY so hungry that they need to eat my plants? They're _little_ ducks.


Ok. Please. Take me by the hand. I'm serious. Let's start over. I'm here. The ducks are here (4 of them now).  How do I play this? Take them out of the garden and free-range until I see bugs? (I'm ok with that, won't even be broken hearted if they get predated.) How big is to big to be trampled by their big feet? In case you're rolling your eyes and thinking "can anyone REALLY be that dumb?" yes I can be and I am.


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## Xerocles

Mini Horses said:


> OK -- start over mister!   You've been given directions.  LOL
> 
> By the way, I don't do ducks.  Garden fenced from chickens, goats & horses.   I do spray with BT, or soap & water for pests.  Plant extra for bugs.   Actually, the tomato hornworms are the most destructive things I've seen.   Oh, yeah, stink bugs!!  And sevin dust helps.   I use a leg of a pantyhose...scoop in the stuff, walk thru and just wiggle that tube and it powders out fine & nice!    Fast & easy.


Thanks for the advice and help. Uhmmm. Got an old pair of pantyhose I can borrow? I'm fresh out.


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## Jesusfreak101

Lol I would seperate them in two groups if possible. Lol that way you can always put only two in. I have assortd of ducks including runners but they run from me still. The others will eat from my hand. Two of my ducks (ironically not the runners) roun/Campbell mixed ducks got out and invade my garden for a week before i caught the little snotts. Grant they only killed my Swiss card and ate to the ground the spanich and lettuce. However i have re seeded just incase the smart pants escape again. However my squash plants seemed thrilled and the peas, green beans, ect seemed untouched. Not sure i trust them and the area they were in was pretty well every where... the had access to my yard which is .5 of an acre and his grandma's yard and field.... personally I think they came to enjoy my veggies. But once again not the runners. I also had a naughty chicken killing some plants as well. If she wasn't a new layer she be on the hit list. However so far she behaving but only time will tell. The evidence speaks for itself however since they been locked up one squash plant seems unhappy about something i have to figure that one out.


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## Jesusfreak101

This is before the ducks

After the ducks first day and couldn't grab them 

And now  but mine were ducking in and out of fences to avoid capture and running through fields and we live on 200 acres of land they stay around the first 10 acres and I was not going to chase them all day.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> How do I play this? Take them out of the garden and free-range until I see bugs? (I'm ok with that, won't even be broken hearted if they get predated.) How big is to big to be trampled by their big feet? In case you're rolling your eyes and thinking "can anyone REALLY be that dumb?" yes I can be and I am.




Now that they've been in there awhile, yeah, I'd take them out until your plants are bigger and you start to see things like squash beetles and bugs, bean beetles, flea beetles, Jap beetles, etc.   Then, start training the ducks to go into the garden each evening(feeding them there helps)when pest bugs are most active and being let out to free range each morning after they've already foraged in the garden for pest bugs.  Since you are just using them for pest removal, sell excess ducks and just keep 2....females would be best.  Selling them is not a problem...there is a very brisk trade on any small livestock right now as people react to decreased availability of eggs and meat in the stores.  

Big enough is out of seedling stage and entering into maturity enough to bloom/head up/etc.   

Just watch your plants and watch your ducks....if they are no longer foraging in the mulch and picking bugs off plants and have started, instead, to nibble on leaves more, time to get them out of there for awhile until you start to experience more pest bugs in the garden.   You don't want to leave them too long in the garden at a time, as they are indiscriminate foragers....your beneficial bugs will get eaten as well.   Just a morning and evening sweep through(don't feed them a lot when you put them in...you'll want them hungry enough to forage) and then out on the green grass.  

Since you don't have anything to protect them as they range, you might consider getting a great horned owl decoy and mounting it up on a nearby lookout point....hawks are mortal enemies of owls and some folks report that this works.   I'd build a small duck house for your garden so you can lock them in at night, if possible.  Or, you could put that dog to work and leave it on guard 24/7 so you don't lose your investment.


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## Mini Horses

Xerocles said:


> Uhmmm. Got an old pair of pantyhose I can borrow? I'm fresh out.



On your own!   I haven't worn any in years but -- can be bought cheaper than a dinner date.....not as much fun.


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## Baymule

I don't have ducks. Last time I tried ducks, Trip ate them. Then he had the nerve to snarl and lunge at me. Did I back down from a snarling 120 pound dog? You KNOW I didn't! I picked up a 4' long tree branch off the ground and whacked him with it. Trip did not want to give up his/MY duck, so I escalated from whack to an all out beating. Yes, I beat my dog with a tree branch. Something about being the Alpha Dog or being the duck. He finally ran off, I took the duck and disposed of it. Trip got 'em all but one. The perfect dog except when it comes to ducks. I'm sure he'd like some more. Do you deliver to Texas? I promise not to whallop him with a tree branch this time.


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## Xerocles

The garden is on temporary hold til I work out a system on the ducks. Will be raining for the next 4 days, so no planting for a while anyway. Plenty of plants ready, transplanted into 6" pots, and a bunch starting to bloom already.
I suppose everyone has some animals that work for them and some that don't. I guess ducks will be a "don't" for me. They just seem stupid beyond belief. I started to rotate them into/out of the garden. 1st, they don't want to leave the garden. Leave the gate open (4 ft double gate). Herd them to the gate....they won't go through, head down the fence line instead. Food placed inches OUTSIDE the gate. They'll stand inside, pacing and looking at the food, but won't go out. Force them out finally, then a repeat to try and get them back inside. 5 days of this so far. Every day the same. Last evening I got so frustrated trying to get them back inside while in the rain, i just said to heck with them, let them get eaten. Left their food inside, left them outside. This morning, they were still outside, food uneaten inside.
They have a nice spacious secure house inside the fence. Darned if I'm gonna build them another one outside.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> The garden is on temporary hold til I work out a system on the ducks. Will be raining for the next 4 days, so no planting for a while anyway. Plenty of plants ready, transplanted into 6" pots, and a bunch starting to bloom already.
> I suppose everyone has some animals that work for them and some that don't. I guess ducks will be a "don't" for me. They just seem stupid beyond belief. I started to rotate them into/out of the garden. 1st, they don't want to leave the garden. Leave the gate open (4 ft double gate). Herd them to the gate....they won't go through, head down the fence line instead. Food placed inches OUTSIDE the gate. They'll stand inside, pacing and looking at the food, but won't go out. Force them out finally, then a repeat to try and get them back inside. 5 days of this so far. Every day the same. Last evening I got so frustrated trying to get them back inside while in the rain, i just said to heck with them, let them get eaten. Left their food inside, left them outside. This morning, they were still outside, food uneaten inside.
> They have a nice spacious secure house inside the fence. Darned if I'm gonna build them another one outside.



They just need time to learn the routine.....all fowl and poultry are idiots, in my book.   The thing is to outsmart a bird that's an idiot.    

Start a routine wherein you feed them inside the fence each evening and that's the only time they get to eat....feed in a pan or trough so they can see and hear the feeding happening~ducks love routine and hate change, so the same pan, the same bucket to carry the feed to the feeder, etc.  Only feed them what they can clean up for that meal.   Feed them inside the gate but not so close they can dart out when you want to close the gate.  Drop the feed, stand way back so they can run in to get it or just leave the garden and leave the gate open so they can find it naturally.  

By morning they will be hungry, so you can open that gate and get back from it and let them find it open on their own.   A few days of this and they'll be waiting for you to open that gate so they can go free range.   Just takes a little time to establish a routine.   

Driving a duck is like driving a sheep....unless you have a good herding dog or lots of people with long sticks in their hands, it ain't gonna happen.  But....you can lead them with food, much like sheep.   

Now, I KNOW you are smarter than a duck, @Xerocles !  Just takes time to get them into a routine and you'll start to love the funny ducks and their antics.     You've got this!


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## Xerocles

Beekissed said:


> Now, I KNOW you are smarter than a duck, @Xerocles !  Just takes time to get them into a routine and you'll start to love the funny ducks and their antics.     You've got this!


Not too sure about that last statement! But I sure hope so. I've got rocks smarter than those ducks.
You must have the patience of Job. Both for your ducks AND for me.
I'm not giving up. (Well, maybe partially since I said I don't even care if they get eaten.) I WILL train these ducks. 
"Just takes time to get them into a routine and you'll start to love the funny ducks and their antics" 
Love is an awfully strong word. I just hope I can get to acceptance. Thanks for being patient with ME.


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## Beekissed

Xerocles said:


> Not too sure about that last statement! But I sure hope so. I've got rocks smarter than those ducks.
> You must have the patience of Job. Both for your ducks AND for me.
> I'm not giving up. (Well, maybe partially since I said I don't even care if they get eaten.) I WILL train these ducks.
> "Just takes time to get them into a routine and you'll start to love the funny ducks and their antics"
> Love is an awfully strong word. I just hope I can get to acceptance. Thanks for being patient with ME.



I don't know how much patience I have....but I did have a vision when I got the ducks.  I had a goal of natural elimination of the millions of squash bugs and Jap beetles, as well as the most repulsive of all....tomato horn worms.   They give me the willies!  

So, I did the research, decided on the breed and determined I was going to make it work, no matter what.  And so far I've learned a few things about ducks in a garden and this year I'm going to make a few adjustments to avoid the pitfalls of last year.   

Like this one....when the ducks get to eating the squash bugs from the squash plants, they have a tendency to tear up the stems and leaves of the squash a bit with their big ol' feet.   This damages the hollow stems and just kills those particular leaves, which sets the plant back.   This year even the yellow squash are going to be staked up so the vine, stems of the leaves and such are not going to be walked on and the ducks have an easier time of getting at those squash bugs.   The ducks are tall, so they should be able to reach all areas of the plant even while staked.   

I'm also going to prune the bottom limbs of the tomato plants more severely this year so the ducks can visualize army worms and horn worms better....though they did an excellent job on the horn worms all the same.  I was getting many a season but I only found a couple last season and found them before they could do any damage. 

In the end you just have to keep that goal in your head and determine that, if other people can do this, you can too.   And you can, it's just a new trick for an old dog....and I often feel much the same way.


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## CntryBoy777

I've never had runners, but have had khaki campbells....I had never had ducks before, only chickens, it took a while to "adjust" to the difference.....chickens, tho a flock bird, run hareem-skareem and spread out from others....not ducks, they pretty much stay together and are easily "herded" by walking slowly with arms out and hands guiding them.....be calm and step slowly towards them at a distance...if ya talk to them they will respond to your voice, a soft voice, loud noises will spook them....  ....personally, I prefer dealing with ducks over chickens....they are so much more entertaining and much rather face a drake than a spurring rooster Anyday....🤣


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## drstratton

WyoLiving said:


> Can you rent a trailer to haul those round bales home?
> With the clay issues and the roots from the saplings (they will probably sprout more saplings in the spring) and such, I would probably build some raised beds instead of trying to garden in the ground.  I have fairly good soil here - it has a little too much sand but compost will eventually fix that - but I am going to start building a series of raised beds.  The raised beds will make gardening easier on me, and I will be able to plant sooner when I make some cold frames for them.


Raised beds are a great way to go!  We now have 6 and it is so nice, better yields and easier on the body!  There are however some crops that still get planted in the ground! We have a lot of sand in our soil too, but after 25 years of gardening our top soil is now pretty good!  With the clay soil @Xerocles is working with I would definitely put some in!
First 3!




Two of the 3 built this year!



6th bed for our strawberries!


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## Mini Horses

@drstratton I love the look and no weeds -- how tall are they?  and are they filled with dirt?   That's a lot of dirt!!!


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## drstratton

Mini Horses said:


> @drstratton I love the look and no weeds -- how tall are they?  and are they filled with dirt?   That's a lot of dirt!!!


Thank you, it certainly makes working in the garden much more pleasant.

For all of them, we removed the garden topsoil to the side to be placed on top of what we filled it with!  We built the first two last spring. They are 4'Wx12'Lx30"H.  We filled them with sand and sod.  We put in an inexpensive above ground pool last year and I brought home to much sand for that project, but it was great to have it for filling the beds and we used the sod that we removed from the spot for the pool, it was a lot of sod! The other two green & galvanized beds are 5'Wx14'Lx30"H.  We filled those & the strawberry bed from a hill of sand in our yard that we were going to use for a waterfall and pond area, it has been sitting there for 25 years and has now served a greater purpose. The strawberry bed is 4'Wx8'Lx26"H.  We also threw in grass clippings & leaves into all of them...we always have a ton of both!


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## Mini Horses

Yeah, wow a lot of work but, very nice!  Some others have had false bottoms or less productive "dirts" to help fill..   Sounds like the waterfall/pond idea wasn't an "all in"  project.  

The home where my mom stayed for a while had a raised flat, empty below, with some small things -- strawberries, etc. -- that the elders could stroll by in the center "courtyard" area.   They could pick if desired.   Was thoughtful & they loved it.  

@Xerocles  -- how's the duck & garden project going  this week?
At least you have abundant mulch.   I have rake, hoe & sometimes sore muscles.  LOL  Looking for old hay!!!


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## Duckfarmerpa1

@Xerocles ...as to the ducks...everyone is right about the routine, and using the same method etc.  every night, I’d go out..to ge5 the 43 ducks...with my feed bucket...rattle it loud, yell ducks...they were in the pond...I& it was too nice..they didn’t budge.  Yo7 have to wait till night..that’s the only drag with ducks...chickens put themselves to bed!
,  not dumb ducks!  So, yes, walk slow behind them with arms out stretched...move slow...Hopefully, sinc3 you only hav3 a few..it won’t take long?  Som3 nights it’d take me 45 minutes?  Easily..much longe4 if we’d have to go looking on the golf cart for them...ugh...that’s why..this year..no ducks!🤣. Can’t wait to see some garden pictures!!


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## bchanfcb1987

After you have planted the seeds and they are thriving, you must make sure that you continue to provide them with nutrients. Depending on the plants you are cultivating, fish emulsion and blood meal are good things to add to the soil. Furthermore, all types of compost such as leaves, kitchen scraps, and other nitrogen rich composts will make your garden flourish.


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## farmerjan

Hey @Xerocles ..... where are you????? Come out come out wherever you are.....
Hope you are okay.....


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## Mini Horses

Hope all is ok with him.   But the girlfriend took our place???    😁


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## farmerjan

Sadly, @Mini Horses the girlfriends always seem to take the place of everything in their life...... until they are no longer there and then they seem to think that they should just go right back into the routine they had before.  Oh well...... Still would be nice to know how things went on the farm and garden project....


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## Finnie

farmerjan said:


> Hey @Xerocles ..... where are you????? Come out come out wherever you are.....
> Hope you are okay.....





Mini Horses said:


> Hope all is ok with him.   But the girlfriend took our place???    😁


I asked a similar question in August on his rabbit thread and he sent me a PM. Without betraying any confidences, he basically decided that keeping animals was not for him, so he sold them all and in his words, quietly slipped away from the forum.
He did give the impression that girlfriend was no longer in the picture.
I then wrote him an encouraging reply, but did not receive a second communication. I’m sure he was getting notifications from BYH in order to know that I had mentioned or quoted him in August. I don’t know whether he left those on or turned them off after that. Maybe if they are still on, he will see Farmerjan’s mention here.
I sure miss his entertaining style of writing.


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## Mini Horses

He can still come be with us, animals or not.  He can marvel at our indulgences.    

I wish him well, whatever his life!


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## farmerjan

I hope that he has a good life also.  Sad that he has just left altogether.... and some people are just not "animal oriented".  That is one of the things that I was trying to impress on @Senile_Texas_Aggie  when he said that maybe they ought to get animals for their place.  START SMALL and make sure that you really like them......


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