# Randomly lethargic baby goat - need additional ideas



## SuburbanFarmChic

I have a friend who is new to goats. I've been helping her but ... I need back up on this one.   BTW... these are her first baby goats. 

The crisis case is next to me in a box with a heating pad.  


On Tuesday morning she checked the barn and the doe had a set of twins. One was hyperflexing his legs and was wobbly and since the doe hadn't had bose and we are deficient I suggested a selenium supplement when she could get out to pick one up and to splint his back legs since he was trying to walk on the front of his feet.  ie completely folding his feet backwards to walk on the top of them. Not just up on his toes.  His sister was just fine. 

She went to work and the day went on. 

 About 6-8 hrs later her tenant went out to the barn (he'd been checking every hour since it was 7* that day) he found 2 more babies.  So she had a set of quads with 2 born several hours later.  The female of this set of twins was similarly Se deficient and was dosed as well. 

The SE supplement was from a kid booster type mix that was available at SS. I don't know which one. It came in a pump. Each weak kid got 3 doses over 12 hrs at .1 ppm SE per dose.  Leg function improves in all.  The weak girl also has her legs splinted.  The girl was also given a supplement mix of 1 egg yolk, 1 oz milk, 1 tbsp molasses, 1 tbsp coffee because she was rather weak. This sugar, fat, caffeine cocktail kicks in and she's ready to go. Her back legs are still wonky but we'll deal with that later. 


Forward 2 days.  The boy has major issues controlling his temperature. It keeps dropping into the low 90s which results in him being pulled, bathed, dried off and stuck on a heating pad until he normalized and can hold his own.   She was giving him milk, thinking that he was not getting enough from the doe since he was a quad. He was then getting lethargic and weak and dropping in temp. 

 To make life easier ( 3 other babies and 3 small children and she's a single mom) I have the "I'm trying to die" bottle boy.  I got him today at about 10am and he hadn't eaten since about 4am. He did not want to even pick his head up. 

I did a test bottle just to see how he did and he had maybe 8 sips of milk and corn syrup.  I then kept him warm and quiet and checked on him through out the day.  When I got home from work I made a bottle with electrolytes and have him 1 oz with goat electrolytes in it and injected 1/2 cc thiamine. That was at about 4pm.  Before the electrolytes and injection he was up and standing and walkign around and acting like a hungry baby goat. Now he's completely passed out and not wanting to even move his head again.   His temp was was 100.3 at 4pm which is a little low but we'd just come in from the car. I had him tucked in my shirt for the ride home. 

Help!  Is this FKS?  Do I keep doing what I'm doing? When can I switch him back to milk?  I have colostrum and goat milk in the freezer and whole cow milk as well.  

What am I missing?  or do I just have a failure to thrive boy?  He was part of the first set of twins so he didn't even have the crazy stressful birth.


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## pridegoethb4thefall

Is he pooping at all?

Have you given him baking soda?  I worry when it sounds like someone has possibly fed a 'cold' kid- they can't digest food when cold, and it sits in there and rots. 

There was another thread on here recently with a lamb with very similar symptoms, and it didn't make it.

I think you're doing right by keeping him warm, but don't feed him if his temp is down at all. Be sure the milk is warm- not too hot, if you're using the micro to warm it, be sure to shake it well to incorporate any hot spots. Don't feed cold milk at all (Im sure you knew that though  )

Goats milk is best if you have it, then maybe mixing it with cows milk till you are on cows all the way, (if you don't have enough goats milk to see him through).

IDK about selenium, my vet says that its very, very easy to overdose a new kid, so I would be very careful when administering it (sounds like you have a handle on that though). I wouldn't do any more supplements unless a vet or a very experienced person suggests it.

Wish I had more advice, and I sure hope he pulls through. Keep an eye on that doeling too, she may start having issues next.

Forgot to add, sometimes the feet will turn under and be weak because of positioning in the womb, not weakness, and will often fix themselves once they are up and about more. You can very gently flex them to start helping the muscles to stretch and start working better.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

Oops I knew I forgot something. 

 He had 1/2 a tsp of baking soda in his last milk bottle last night at about 10.  He nursed his mother a couple times during the night.  I am looking for mine. I can't believe I'm actually out but it's possible. 


 He is urinating a lot (not dehydrated) and has pooped twice.  Standard soft milk poop.




 And yes, his first supplementation was while he was cold (93*)   But it was about 1oz and when she realized his temp she interrupted the feeding at my request to stick him in a warm bath and he maintained a 100+ temp for the next 3-4 hrs with a heating pad and being near the fire.  After that she temp checked before any food.


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## pridegoethb4thefall

What is the correct dosing for thiamine? 1/2 a cc seems like a lot to me. But I don't know correct dosing for that, so Im probably wrong about it being a lot.

What breed is he again? His weight?  I ask because if he was up and walking and wanting to eat, and then goes down after an injection (of anything) I wonder if it was too much?


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## SuburbanFarmChic

He is a Nubian.  Probably 6 lbs. 

  Dose on thiamine for FKS is 500mg daily.  he's had 1/2 of that so far. 


He's been Ok and alert and awake and then crashing for 3-4 hrs and then ok and then crash and this cycle repeats.


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## pridegoethb4thefall

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> He is a Nubian.  Probably 6 lbs.
> 
> Dose on thiamine for FKS is 500mg daily.  he's had 1/2 of that so far.
> 
> 
> He's been Ok and alert and awake and then crashing for 3-4 hrs and then ok and then crash and this cycle repeats.


Sounds like a typical newborn baby (human). They get up to eat, play and poop for a little while, then they sleep like they're dead to the world for a few hours, then repeat. Could that be what he is doing?


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## SuburbanFarmChic

No, I've done bottle babies before. We had 13 of them last March.  This guy is alert for 3 minutes. Pretends he wants to eat and then is limp for several hours. No suckle reflex. No energy after the 3 minute burst which is not even full baby goat energy. It's newborn "I'm learning to stand up" levels of energy.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

And a 4 day old goat should be able to maintain his temperature in my 67* dining room with no drafts. If he's not near a heat source he crashes.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

.5 oz of electrolyte solution at 7pm during a wakeful phase.  He was actively seeking out the bottle which is a first for that.  Back asleep w/ the hot pad. Mouth was warm so I didn't temp.


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## Pearce Pastures

Just to rule it out because I doubt this is it, was his cord dipped?  

Would treat for FKS and selenium deficiency (which are two different things----some think they are the same).  

Just a quick quote on FKS


> Characteristically, goat producers reported that newborn kids seem to do fine for a few days after birth, beyond which they start to show depression, weakness and flaccid paralysis without signs of diarrhea and have normal rectal temperature. One common clinical sign reported is distension of the abdomen. The signs of depressions and paralysis seem to affect the animals in waves. At one particular point, kids look so bad that they give the appearance of being dead. After some time they seem to recover spontaneously only to go back into coma 15-20 minutes later. Affected animals that are not treated may die within a few days. The condition does not seem to respond to antibiotic or vitamin E and Selenium treatments. Because the clinical appearance is that of very weak animals "lacking energy" most producers try to solve the problem by force feeding affected kids. This only makes the problem worse since this condition seems to be the result of over-consumption of milk.


So treatment---you are not going to OD him on a vitamin B complex/ thiamine because they are water soluble so keep those going.  Stop milk immediately and mix a teaspoon of baking soda in a cup of water and give him about 3-4 teaspoons every 2 or 3 hours.  

Be right back on about the selenium....


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## Pearce Pastures

> The SE supplement was from a kid booster type mix that was available at SS. I don't know which one. It came in a pump. Each weak kid got 3 doses over 12 hrs at .1 ppm SE per dose.  Leg function improves in all.


Okay, on the selenium front. Goats need 0.2 ppm but can develop toxicity at 3ppm  When was the last tie he had any?  I might consult a vet on this one and see about a BoSe injection because that supplement is low and has to go through the digestive system so not sure how effective it is.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

He had oral selenium about 24-36 hrs ago. I am likely going to stab him with Bose if he's still wobbly in the morning. 

No milk since 10am today.  

Getting the other 1/2 cc of thiamine tonight.  Then again 1/2 a cc every 12 hrs.  


Goal is to get the rest of the other 4.5 oz of electrolyte solution into him before midnight. We seem to be doing .5 an oz every 45 min.   If I can't get it in him I will do a subq ringer solution to keep him hydrated.  

May end up tubing him but I would like to avoid it.



I wish I could figure out why when he is removed from the heating pad, even gradually, he temp crashes into the 90s.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

His cord was not dipped but he's not running hot.  I'm starting either PenG or La-200 tonight as well to cover all bases.  Still deciding which.

Honestly I think I'm dealing with low SE, weak from being a quad, and FKS.    Woo!


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## Pearce Pastures

Finger crossed for you.  Good idea on the antibiotic and some do use that in conjunction with the baking soda treatment.  Are you doing baking soda too?  I would personally go with the PenG.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

Sort of. He had baking soda in his last bottle. I don't have any in the electrolyte solution at the moment but he's going back on it shortly.  So yes, but it's been a few hours and I need to up the amount.



I think I'm probably going to watch everything I ever wanted to watch on Netflix or Hulu tonight. Lol.  Good thing I don't have to be at work until next Wed!


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## Pearce Pastures

What a way to spend your time off.  Hope you see some improvement soon and can get some rest.  The baking soda is the best choice for FKS so I would keep that going.  If it is FKS, and you do the baking soda mix ever few hours, you should see improvement soon.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

Dose of baking soda and we're working through the electrolytes. Man does he ever pitch a fit about the baking soda.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*Hope your little one is ok. I'm rootin' for him! Def try baking soda and electrolytes, pen g is a good idea too. Sounds like you are doing all the right things.*


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## SuburbanFarmChic

Thanks. My fingers are crossed for him too. He's a cutie.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

The good news is his stomach is gurgling and not sloshy.


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## alsea1

He is def. offering you a challenge.


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## ragdollcatlady

No advice, sounds like you got all the bases covered but I got cyber hugs and hopeful wishes....


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## SuburbanFarmChic

He spent the night in bed with us. Around 2am he seemed to round the corner and was ravenous. I let him have 1.5 oz of milk at about 2:30 and he's not had the heating pad since then.  Again up and hungery at around 4 or 5 ( I looked at the clock just long enough to register that it had been a couple hours but not what time it was) and he got another 1.5 oz.  Still no heating pad since we got up at 2. Just body heat. Has been holding a temp of 100 - 102.  Still some fluctuation but not dropping into the 90s like it was.  


Hasn't pooped since about 2pm but there isn't much in there to poop out. I'm going to wait until after lunch and if he hasn't by then I'll do a warm water enema to see if we can't get things moving.   He never actually made it on Peng last night but I'm starting it today as a just in case. 

So officially... who knows. 

 He's not out of the woods yet, but maybe the selenium and everything else have finally kicked in and we've turned the corner.  


Thanks for all your well wishes. I'm going to keep this updated through out the day. I have him until at least Sunday.   May be flopping for the baby girl, the heat lamp died last night and apparently she was laid out cold this morning. She's had a warm bath and is now inside my friends shirt for the foreseeable future.   Goat wearing.  it's a long lost art.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

So far about 2 oz about every 2 hours. He's following me around the house in a little goat coat and occasionally napping in my lap.  So far so good except for a lack of pooping.  Going to try warm water after this round of nappage.


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## bonbean01

Sounding more hopeful now...you are a good goat mommy


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## SuburbanFarmChic

Took him 3 days, multiple enemas, 90% of his time spent in my lap, 3 glycerine suppositories and he's still not pooping on his own. We get the occasional turdlet but no really bms. The bulk in his digestive system is slowing moving from his stomach down towards his colon which is a start. That's happened over the last 24 hrs or so.   


He is still on baking soda,  Peng, Thiamine, and I am starting a small dose of banamine every 24-36 hrs because when we thought he was on his way out yesterday morning during a major crash the combo of glycerine and banamine is what made him poop. I got him stoned for his journey out of this world only to have him poop everywhere and recover.  .... Goats... 


Still having trouble regulating body temperature but he's getting better. 


He has 2 doses of oil and bloat treatment in him that are working their way towards his butt.  I am hoping for 'the evacuation of Saigon" when they hit.  I don't care where he poops. I just want it out of his little body.


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## 20kidsonhill

Corn syrup is a great laxative and good source of energy. 
Over eating disease can be cause sever constipation.  I would give him C&D antitoxin. 
And Baytril. Baytril is a RX.  But very very good for got bacteria problems. 

Don't forget a small dose of Probios each day.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

Just to update. We kept him on what we were doing and he kept with his OK/crash OK/crash thing. Yesterday in finally got my hands on the CD antitoxin. Injected him at 7pm. He was mostly alert and was on one of his upswings. Two hours after antitoxin he crashed hard core. Started having racing or super slow heart beats. Difficulty breathing. Etc. Couldn't get him warm even on a pad. Was administering sub q fluid as all suck reflex went away. 

He died around ten this morning.   Am going to do a necropsy later today.  Anti toxin shouldn't have killed him but it seems to have. After the injection his reaction was to go limp, have no muscle control and curl into the head on stomach, dead of fks, pose. 

Every thing said that the injection was the right thing to do. Systemic overload?  Weak body?  Sudden toxin release? Not sure yet.


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## bonbean01

Oh no!!!!!  I'm so sorry


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