# Signs of heat....subtle signs, that is...experienced breeders?



## freemotion (Nov 7, 2009)

OK, I admit, I am starting to obsess early.   As most of you probably know, I have my first buck.  The doe I want to breed first has not yet come into heat, at least I don't think so.  I can't just toss her in there.....she would surely beat the tar out of the boy, and he has never bred before, so I don't want her to mess with him unnecessarily.

I have four does.  My two pet pygmy-x's came into heat in the first two days the buck was here.  It was so obvious!  Lots of tail wagging and hanging out by his fence.  Lots of yells when one of them touched the electric wire....often....learning curve, anyone?   The 7-month-old doeling came into heat a couple days ago, and I nearly missed it.  She was wagging her tail and hanging around him overnight.  Fortunately, I worked late that night and went out after 8:30.  She was done by morning.  

Now I worry that I will....or have already....missed the older doe's heat.  What are some subtle signs?  I have been taking her over to his gate, no electric low on that side since it faces the house and not the does.  I take her twice a day, after milking.  Today, she actually touched noses several times through the fence and after a few minutes, turned around a pee'd.  But no flagging, and she usually pees a few minutes after milking.  I brought her face back to the gate, and she hit it with her horns....but lightly.

I spent years with horses on a breeding and show farm, so am quite observant....but.....this is new.  

Any hints?  I want to get her bred first, hopefully soon.  Buck has been here two weeks this Sunday.  So she has to come into heat by the 15th, no?

What are some subtle signs to watch for, and do does, like mares, sometimes have silent heats?


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## lilhill (Nov 7, 2009)

Yes, sometimes you will have a doe that has silent heats.  Those are the hardest, so I just put that particular doe in with the buck for 45 days to cover two heat cycles.  Luckily I've only had one that pulled that on me.


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## freemotion (Nov 7, 2009)

Oh, lovely....I was hoping you'd say that NEVER happens with goats, they are a buncha hussies!   The thought of putting my lactating doe in with the buck for 45 days.....***shudder****

Well, she has another week to start waggin' that tail of hers!

She'd probably kill the buck within a few hours....


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## kimmyh (Nov 8, 2009)

Every doe is different, and some change from cycle to cycle. I would NEVER breed a 7 month old Pygmy/Pygmy cross on purpose. Small breeds take longer to physically mature.


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## lilhill (Nov 8, 2009)

Is the one you want to breed with suspected silent heats a 7 mo. old Pygmy/Pygmy x?  If so, then obviously I missed that part when reading and Kimmy is correct.


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## freemotion (Nov 8, 2009)

No, she is an adult Alpine, probably 3-4 years old, and has kidded at least twice that I know of.  I've had her almost a year and haven't noticed a heat cycle yet.

I don't have a 7-month old Pygmy or cross.  My 7-month-old is a Nubian/Boer/Alpine cross, and I won't be breeding her yet.  Maybe if she has a January heat.  She is over 80 lbs and growing well.

I do have two Pygmy-x's that both have kidded before I got them, and are both 7-8 years old.  I may breed one of them....strong as an ox, a tank, vibrantly healthy.  Add some dairy genes and it would get interesting.  One of my tough-as-nails rescues.


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## lilhill (Nov 8, 2009)

Ah, I see.    You may have to put her with the buck then like I suggested earlier to get that girl bred.  Those girls really are frustrating.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I have been taking her over to his gate, no electric low on that side since it faces the house and not the does.  I take her twice a day, after milking.  Today, she actually touched noses several times through the fence and *after a few minutes, turned around a pee'd*.


The peeing part...that's interesting.  She _turned around_ and pee'd?  Like, she was sniffing noses, then turned around and sorta pee'd in his general direction?

If so...I may have turned her in with him right then, just to see if she'd stand for breeding.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2009)

Speaking of silent heats...I've got a good one for ya.

We have a really mean doe.    She's sweet with us, and she's a really great mother...but she's hell on the other goats.  Bites, butts, chases...just generally cantankerous.

Anyway, she's always been pretty quiet about her heats..  The other day, though, my wife had been tending the bucks and scratched somebody's head so her hand got "bucky."  She then went down with the does and the mean doe came over to be pet on..

Well, I'll tell it to you as my wife told it to me..

Wife -- "So I put my hand out and her tail started going crazy."
Me -- "Hmm.."
Wife -- "Then she squatted and pee'd."
Me -- "Aha..."
Wife -- "Uh huh.............and then she _BIT ME_!"
Me -- "BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!"


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## lilhill (Nov 9, 2009)

You're poor wife!  And you laugh at her ... bad, bad.


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## freemotion (Nov 9, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, sure, NOW he tells me!!!! 

I am going by my extensive horse experience, which may or may not apply here.....It didn't seem like heat behavior, more like "gotta go, and here is as good a place as any" behavior.  It is not unusual for her to pee after coming off the milking stand, especially if I rushed her onto it, or was slow about taking her off.  I hope I'm right and you are wrong....but I'm writing it on my calendar just in case!  Considering I have no experience with goat breeding!

I touched her tail after she pee'd so I could take a look under it, and she CLAMPED.  So I scratched her back and pushed down a bit, took her back over to the buck, and her whole attitude was, "I just want to go back in with the girls...NOW DARNIT!"

She sounds just like the doe you described.   I think she would injure this little young buck if I put her in with him and she was not receptive. 

Sunday will be three weeks since his arrival.  Six more days of obsessing for me.  Or more.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 10, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Oh, sure, NOW he tells me!!!!


Not saying she definitely would have stood for breeding...I'm just saying that I'd have been suspicious enough of her turning around to pee sorta _toward_ him (possibly to give him a chance to do a "taste test" of the urine -- gross, but...) that I'd probably have turned her in to see what happened next.



			
				fm said:
			
		

> I am going by my extensive horse experience, which may or may not apply here.....It didn't seem like heat behavior, more like "gotta go, and here is as good a place as any" behavior.  It is not unusual for her to pee after coming off the milking stand, especially if I rushed her onto it, or was slow about taking her off.  I hope I'm right and you are wrong....but I'm writing it on my calendar just in case!  Considering I have no experience with goat breeding!


See, the "gotta go" thing is interesting too..  I've seen them drop and pee like it hits them all of a sudden when they're in heat, but then they only pee a little bit..  Could be another sign...

or...



			
				fm said:
			
		

> I touched her tail after she pee'd so I could take a look under it, and she CLAMPED.  So I scratched her back and pushed down a bit, took her back over to the buck, and her whole attitude was, "I just want to go back in with the girls...NOW DARNIT!"


...could be nothing at all!    It's so hard to tell sometimes..



			
				fm said:
			
		

> She sounds just like the doe you described.   I think she would injure this little young buck if I put her in with him and she was not receptive.


Yeah, I dread to think about breeding meanie..  First time she was bred, we just turned the buck in with all the does and let them do their thing..  We only had three at the time, and they were pretty much all ready to rock and roll.  The other two does kidded triplets each almost exactly 5mo after he arrived, on the same day as one another....meanie kidded a full six weeks later with a singleton..

She _really_ made him work for it..  



			
				fm said:
			
		

> Sunday will be three weeks since his arrival.  Six more days of obsessing for me.  Or more.


Yep..


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## kimmyh (Nov 10, 2009)

Urination is part of courtship in some cases, it is also submissive posturing.


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## freemotion (Nov 10, 2009)

More likely courtship with this gal....nothing submissive about her!!!  I really, really hope she just had to go!  I did want to breed her first.

But I've owned and worked with animals long enough to know that they have their own agenda and don't really care what I want!


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## freemotion (Nov 12, 2009)

Yay!  Today she is flagging her tail and acting strange while milking.  Now she is in with the buck.  He has an idea, but not exactly what to do.  She is getting frustrated with him!

He'll figure it out.

Now I can stop obsessing.....wait.....what if he doesn't breed her?  What if she bonks him?  What if she doens't settle?  What if she has quads and they are all tangled?  What if she has a gigantic single and it gets stuck?????  What if what if what if what if.....


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## kimmyh (Nov 12, 2009)




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## freemotion (Nov 12, 2009)

I had to go to work today, but before I left, I had time to watch them a bit.  The poor boy needs a gps!  She would get frustrated, turn around, and bonk him.  Then turn back around a flag her tail and pee.  Several times....quite entertaining, actually.  I didn't see any useful action, and when I called dh later, they were lying down chewing cuds.  

I was hoping she'd teach him a thing or two.....do I need to bring her in tonight for a viewing of "The Graduate?"

So, I get to obsess yet some more!


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