# Possible CL Contamination - Goats



## KidMandy (Feb 4, 2015)

Hi Everyone,

We took in a buck a few weeks ago to mate with our doe.  He was from a relatively trusted farm, as they are well known in the community and are a source of goat milk for the local large-scale goat cheese producer.

When we picked him up, the farmer noted he had discovered a 'lump' on the side of the buck's neck.  It was quite large (almost as big as my hand) and looked like swelling.  He assumed the buck had injured himself and was not particularly concerned.

The lump has not gone down since we brought the buck home, and this morning it burst, sending puss all over the goat's house, bedding, water, etc.  We have separated him as best we can (we don't have a lot of extra space) and my husband is cleaning out the house, putting down new bedding, checking over our goats, etc.

I have a call in to our vet to see if there is anything we can do to protect our goats.  We have three - a wethered buck, and two does, both are pregnant.  I have read that CL is contagious, but cannot seem to find out how it spreads - through the air, by the puss being ingested, simply by being touched by it - or if it's contagious to humans, or if the babies being carried could already have it.

If anyone has experience with this, please tell me what we should be doing.  I also have a call in to the farmer who gave us the buck to begin with.  I have a hard time believing that it wasn't already present in his herd.  CL can't just show up out of the blue, can it?

Thank you for any help you can give.


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## BrownSheep (Feb 4, 2015)

CL is generally transmitted through contact with the puss. If I remember correctly it is possible for humans to contract it but it isn't common occurrence. I also think kids can contract if via milk.

I would test the buck to make certain it wasn't just an abscess. I think milk producers have to test for CL on a fairly regular basis. Where exactly on the neck was the abscess?

Sorry, I'm not more help. It's been a while since I've studied CL


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2015)

UGH.  Get some of that puss and get it tested. Or if you can't do that get a blood draw and send it in. It is imperative to find out if it is CL. My buck had a real ugly abscess on his neck, it was the size of a softball. I had it lanced and tested and it was not CL. Fortunately he was in a quarantine pen just in case.

It is transferred through contact with the puss and yes people can get it but not common at all. It is not passed through the milk and milk producers do not test for it.  It can live in the soil for years and in wood and other porous items. If the abscess burst in an area where you have your does then they have been exposed but the puss has to find a break in their skin to enter the blood stream, unfortunately that is pretty common. Whatever pen he was in is now contaminated and will not be clean for years unless you bring in new soil or scrape that soil out.  There is no way to remove it or neutralize it on a porous surface.

You have to get him tested and if it is CL then you need to start testing your animals in about 6 months, it takes that long for them to test positive. You may never see an abscess and they can still be positive. But let's not go down that path until you get that buck tested.

Sorry about this. It will be a long few weeks. If your does are bred the kids are fine.


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## KidMandy (Feb 4, 2015)

Thank you for the replies.  The vet came out and said our description of the abscess as being soft, squishy, and warm to the touch, does not match with the typical CL abscess.  It's also not in a typical CL location, and the puss was more milky/puddingy yellow and cheese-smelling, as opposed to thicker, like cream cheese.

We have had it tested, though.  I am really hoping it's negative.


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2015)

Good to know that you are hopefully in the clear. If you have a CL free herd I would never take in a goat with an abscess anywhere on it's body. Too risky unless said goat has a clear test in the last month and even then I would be leery. 

Glad you are having it tested.


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## KidMandy (Feb 4, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Good to know that you are hopefully in the clear. If you have a CL free herd I would never take in a goat with an abscess anywhere on it's body. Too risky unless said goat has a clear test in the last month and even then I would be leery.
> 
> Glad you are having it tested.




I did have reservations about bringing him home.  At the time, he was our only option, though, as they are tight with bio-security and couldn't allow us to bring our doe to them, and we hadn't been able to find anyone else to borrow a buck.  If it turns out that it isn't CL, we will likely keep this guy.  He is a nice Alpine with a good temperament.  I just wish he didn't have horns!


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## Southern by choice (Feb 5, 2015)

KidMandy said:


> I did have reservations about bringing him home.  At the time, he was our only option, though, as they are tight with bio-security and couldn't allow us to bring our doe to them, and we hadn't been able to find anyone else to borrow a buck.  If it turns out that it isn't CL, we will likely keep this guy.  He is a nice Alpine with a good temperament.  I just wish he didn't have horns!



I hope it is not CL  
It was irresponsible of them to lease you the buck without them testing the lump or treating before they sent him onto your  property. Secondly I don't buy the bio-security line... here is why.
The buck is exposed to a great deal going off property and coming back onto theirs... are they a tested herd? What do they test for? Are you a tested herd? What are you tested for? Did they even ask? Do they have documentation?


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 5, 2015)

I hope it does turn out to not be CL.  Your vet is most likely correct.

Where on the goats neck was the abscess?

We've had two goats get an abscess on their jaw.  They can get an abscessed tooth or salivary gland.  Both times the vet said it wasn't CL when he saw where it was located and when he saw the puss.  We tested anyway and both times it was negative.

I hope you get the same outcome.


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## Sweetened (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm going to throw this out there at risk of taking some heat.  I have researched CL quite a bit as I have had two does that get a lump that comes and goes on their wattle but it has never burst or opened up.  Even the BEST of the BEST producers can have CL in their herds and never know it, whether they test for it or not.  A common thing out my way is to see people advertising their herds as "Certified CL free."  I found out, from doing a few calls around for certification, you CANNOT, in North America, be certified CL free.  CL free simply means there have been no outward occurrence of lesions OR any lumps/bumps/humps have tested negative for CL.  Abscesses can be internal and never present outwardly.  Goats who have ZERO history or suspected exposure can form the abscesses at any time due to immune responses and other infections while exposed to goats who have it and have never shown symptoms.  IMHO, if you have ever bought an auction goat or from someone who has, the chances of it occurring on your farm sometime, somewhere are very high.  From my understanding, it's one of those things if you own goats long enough, you will see it.

Your hubby is doing the right thing!  I have treated the lumps on the does wattles that have had them with topical oregano oil, and the lump is gone in days -- I suspect they catch them on the feeder, but I don't know.  When I talked to my vet and a couple other people, they said unless it bursts, its best to leave it closed for now, as opting to lance it allows the disease to spread.

My fingers are crossed for you!   Head up and don't panic.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 5, 2015)

Sweetened said:


> I'm going to throw this out there at risk of taking some heat.  I have researched CL quite a bit as I have had two does that get a lump that comes and goes on their wattle but it has never burst or opened up.  Even the BEST of the BEST producers can have CL in their herds and never know it, whether they test for it or not.  A common thing out my way is to see people advertising their herds as "Certified CL free."  I found out, from doing a few calls around for certification, you CANNOT, in North America, be certified CL free.  CL free simply means there have been no outward occurrence of lesions OR any lumps/bumps/humps have tested negative for CL.  Abscesses can be internal and never present outwardly.  Goats who have ZERO history or suspected exposure can form the abscesses at any time due to immune responses and other infections while exposed to goats who have it and have never shown symptoms.  IMHO, if you have ever bought an auction goat or from someone who has, the chances of it occurring on your farm sometime, somewhere are very high.  From my understanding, it's one of those things if you own goats long enough, you will see it.
> 
> Your hubby is doing the right thing!  I have treated the lumps on the does wattles that have had them with topical oregano oil, and the lump is gone in days -- I suspect they catch them on the feeder, but I don't know.  When I talked to my vet and a couple other people, they said unless it bursts, its best to leave it closed for now, as opting to lance it allows the disease to spread.
> 
> My fingers are crossed for you!   Head up and don't panic.


You are right great producers especially meat goats often have CL in their herds. As far as "Certified"  that wouldn't make any sense because it can show up after exposure etc. 
We test every year and advertise... "Tested Negative" we give month and year.... It is the best we can do for our herd with what is available. 
In our region we are seeing many people list their goats as tested but they don't even know the testing and often don't have documentation... 

There are times goats get abscesses and surely they are not always CL.


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## KidMandy (Feb 5, 2015)

The lump was located between his neck and  his shoulder, but it didn't resemble the images of CL lumps I found online.  It was more like a large swollen area.  It was not discoloured, golf ball-sized, or hard.  It was similar to water under the skin - soft, warm, and squishy, and the skin was normal-coloured and he did not lose his hair.  It was the size of my hand.

With regards to bio-security, I believe this buck was destined for slaughter, so they were fine with him leaving the farm for an extended period.  It was even suggested that we just keep him indefinitely as we do not have a buck of our own, and will have to find one every time we are ready to breed.  However, I felt it was odd that, even if the buck was going to be slaughtered, it was okay for him to leave the farm and then be returned.

We live in a very small community where 'everyone knows each other.'  I think in our case, it was a neighbor helping a neighbor (even though we are just recent acquaintances).  We don't really have a herd - just a doe and her two kids - and they have not been tested for CL.  The farmers who sold us the doe have since retired and sold off their herd.  It never occurred to us to ask if they had tested for CL, but our doe has never had any lesions or abscesses.  I know that doesn't really mean anything, but she's been with us for three years now.

Thank you everyone for your comments and insight.  Talking about this makes me feel like I still don't know enough about goats and herd management.


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## Sweetened (Feb 5, 2015)

Biosecurity is... well, questionable in so many ways.  I don't quarantine anything here, I have 15 acres and not enough outbuildings.  We have wild birds and mice and barn cats, so me changing my shoes or going into one barn last or -whatever- other practices is moot, because the cats don't give a damn about biosecurity, nor do the birds and so on.  

People here often "lease out" goats.  They'll drop a buck off for 42 days for a fee, you feed and water them and so on, then they come back and pick them up.  Some require testing documentation, others don't.  They do it with bulls, and bucks out here, but because of scrapie laws, typically it's not done with Rams (not publically anyway, I'm sure).

You have to do what's right for YOU.  No matter how careful you are, how fastidiously clean, how often you're out there bleaching walls and shoveling crap and so on, something will happen to the best of everyone.  Someone will get hurt, someone will get sick, someone will die, someone will pull through from the brink of death, whether you treat naturally, chemically or not at all.

YOU, dear, are doing wonderfully, and researching is great.  Do NOT let the information scare you.  Looking up goat and livestock management is like typing in symptoms into google and opening up WebMD.  "Heart palpitations, nervousnessness, bouncy leg, twitchy eye."  *Click find, open WebMD Link:* HEART FAILURE, HEART ATTACK, EMERGENCY, RUN TO HOSPITAL NOW, or stress.

It's more than likely stress, but now you're worried that your symptoms may cause mayhem and a prolonged torturous death.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 5, 2015)

So true... I swear more people think the absolute worst when it comes to a small matter. Bio-security does only go so far  but at the same time I am not going to purposely buy a doe that has CAE, CL, or the worst yet Johnnes... I certainly wouldn't want to bring in an animal that I have no documentation on and expose my herd. Bottom line is if your herd is not closed, you take any animals off and on property  you are at risk. Most of the time nothing will happen, sometimes it could be simple like mites but sometimes respiratory illnesses, etc.


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## babsbag (Feb 5, 2015)

Here is some more reading on CL from UC Davis

http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/local-...S_Connection_Small_Ruminant_edition_final.pdf


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## KidMandy (Feb 6, 2015)

Is it strange that I still haven't heard from the farmer who 'lent' us the buck?  I have to admit, I'm a little peeved that it is now costing us about $150 to have this testing done, and technically, we do not own this goat.  Though I do realize we are responsible for bringing him here, and potentially infecting our goats.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 6, 2015)

KidMandy said:


> Is it strange that I still haven't heard from the farmer who 'lent' us the buck?  I have to admit, I'm a little peeved that it is now costing us about $150 to have this testing done, and technically, we do not own this goat.  Though I do realize we are responsible for bringing him here, and potentially infecting our goats.


   So sorry for this ordeal. 

Why is it costing so much? UC Davis charges $14.50 for out of state CL tests.


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## KidMandy (Feb 6, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> So sorry for this ordeal.
> 
> Why is it costing so much? UC Davis charges $14.50 for out of state CL tests.




I'm in Ontario, Canada.  Our vet charges a fee to come out to take the culture (we don't have anything here to do it ourselves - maybe we should stock up!) and she told us it was about $50 +tax to have the culture tested at the lab.  I'm hoping she's over estimated the cost, as I don't believe their call fee is more than $50, but I could be wrong.


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## Sweetened (Feb 6, 2015)

Are they charging mileage?

Im in SK, and my vet charges 2.75/km, 150 for a farm call, an exam fee of 30$, and thats just to get started. Blood draw is another 30 plus testing, and so on, and she is -the best price- anywhere.


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## Sweetened (Feb 6, 2015)

And if you can, load the goat and bring it there, itll reduce your cost.


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## KidMandy (Feb 6, 2015)

Sweetened said:


> Are they charging mileage?
> 
> Im in SK, and my vet charges 2.75/km, 150 for a farm call, an exam fee of 30$, and thats just to get started. Blood draw is another 30 plus testing, and so on, and she is -the best price- anywhere.




Just looking at our last bill - it was $44 for the appointment (for them to come here - we are 23kms from their office), and $45 for the "minimum professional fee" - this particular visit we were having our young buck castrated with a burdizzo.  On top of that fee were the menial charges for the meds to sedate and freeze him.  Whatever they come here to do is usually covered under the professional fee. I've never noticed an extra charge for drawing blood or other procedures.

So I guess the fee for the visit this week will be about $90 (appointment plus professional fee to examine him and take the swab), plus the cost of the actual test at the lab.  So, ugh, $150.


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## babsbag (Feb 6, 2015)

Well if he comes back negative and you decide you like him maybe they will consider that payment and give him to you.


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## elevan (Feb 6, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Well if he comes back negative and you decide you like him maybe they will consider that payment and give him to you.


If they don't, I'd be handing them a bill for the vet and testing charges as they put you in this position to begin with @KidMandy .


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## KidMandy (Feb 6, 2015)

elevan said:


> If they don't, I'd be handing them a bill for the vet and testing charges as they put you in this position to begin with @KidMandy .



I've been thinking the same thing.  Or at least pay half, because we obviously shouldn't have taken him to begin with.


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## elevan (Feb 6, 2015)

Paying half would be a good compromise.  You live and learn and unfortunately sometimes your checkbook has to take a hit in the process.  I hope you get good results and a good answer from the owner!


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## KidMandy (Feb 12, 2015)

IT'S *NOT* CL!!    

The culture came back with a typical bacteria, common to livestock.  Whew!  We have to keep the area open and dry, and make sure the infection clears.  I will be contacting the farmer today to let him know.  I still didn't hear back from him from my call last week when it burst.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 12, 2015)

KidMandy said:


> IT'S *NOT* CL!!
> 
> The culture came back with a typical bacteria, common to livestock.  Whew!  We have to keep the area open and dry, and make sure the infection clears.  I will be contacting the farmer today to let him know.  I still didn't hear back from him from my call last week when it burst.



Glad to hear it.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Feb 12, 2015)

What a relief!


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## Sweetened (Feb 12, 2015)

Great to hear. You may just need to keep that buck or sell him as payment for the vet bills!


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 12, 2015)

Glad to hear!


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## Southern by choice (Feb 12, 2015)

very happy to hear this!


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## Ridgetop (Jun 20, 2018)

CL abscesses are very typical with a hard cheesy pus that you  have to push out.  They look like a marble to a golf ball size lump, very round.  I had one goat develop an abscess like that and sent her to the sale yard.  We kindly loaned a buck to another 4-H family that supposedly tested their goats for CAE and had a clean herd.   When our goat came back, he had an abcess which the famiy claimed was from a sliver in the feeder.  I had found out by then that they had a CAE doe that they kept "separate" from the others.  We had been at shows with them and seen this goat in pens next to other exhibitors.  Because he was exposed to CAE in their herd, and the lump was in a CL location, I sent him to the sale yard just in case.  You know the saying "No good deed goes unpunished".  We stopped doing "good deeds after losing that really pretty little Nubian buck at the risk of being thought selfish.  I did not take chances with CAE or CL

Sheep get abscesses frequently because of shearing, but not all abcesses are CL.  There is an abscess called Kreulz (sp?) disease.  This occurs from stickers, or thorns in the mouth or area around the face and neck.  the difference is in the pus.  Kreulz pus is runny yellowish li


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## Ridgetop (Jun 20, 2018)

Contd.   . . . runny yellowish liquid instead of hard cottage cheese like pus.  These abscesses clear up.

Is this buck papered?  Is your doe papered?  If you want a papered buck for your doe, you will want the buck owner to supply you with the papers.  I would also ask why the buck was going to slaughter at breeding age.  Most dairy people get rid of excess bucks early since there is no point wasting milk on them past 2 months old.

Also, you might want to invest in an elastrator or burdizzo yourself to avoid paying $100 for a vet call.  There is no need to anesthetize the little buck with an elastrator castration since he will forget all about it in about 5 minutes.  But DO make sure to vaccinate for tetanus when castrating.  Also make sure you don't catch the urethra tubes in the band.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 21, 2018)

Do not buy used equipment, feeders, milkstands, clippers, etc.  Do not lend or borrow either!  Sheep are notorious CL carriers because shearing may burst lumps , so avoid penning goats after sheep.  If you show you most likely pen in same pens used by sheep!  

Find an illustration of goat lymphatic system as CL abscesses often actually lymph node itself.  Most common area to see CL are in flank area and '''string of pearls" around neck.  Think of area of neck that a horse'scollar would cover.  I have seen CL abscess in udder, too.  Lung abscess happen and you only see on necropsy.

I vaccinate behind elbow and any vaccine for clostridial caused diseases will cause a swelling and lump.  No lymph node there so not indicator of CL.  Often recommended to vaccinate  on side of neck, but a lump there may be confused with CL.  Also, any injection of any type may cause a 'sterile' abscess if needle picks up contamination.  That is why you don't give injections to wet and/or dirty animals.  If you don't pull back and cntaminate syringe barrel you may simply change needle between animals.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 21, 2018)

Caseous Lymphadenitis is specific to the lymph nodes.  Sheep routinely can get abscesses which are NOT CL in other areas, commonly from clipper blades.  You should sterilize your clipper blades between sheep when shearing.  Dip blades into bleach or alcohol.   Also fox tails in wool can cause abscesses when they work into the skin and the abscess can't be seen under the wool.  Not all abscesses are CL, but it is better to be safe than sorry with any type of infection.  You should separate the animal from the flock, keep it separate, and take animal out of pen before attempting to open an abscess.  DO NOT drain an abscess unless you are sure it is not CL.  When draining a non CL abscess, wear gloves, open the bottom of the abscess, use paper towels to express and catch all the pus, use a small syringe (without needle) to irrigate the abscess area with iodine.  Give antibiotics locally and sub Q.  Keep the animal separated until the abscess has healed. 

You can sanitize metal feeders, stanchions etc. with a hand held propane blow torch.  You can also use lime to sanitize pens, and bleach sprayed on wood will help.  Best way to avoid CL is not to get it on your property and to dispose of any animal that tests positive.  If you have an animal that you believe has CL, or tests positive, get rid of it.  No matter how careful you are, the risk is too great.  No animal is so valuable to your herd or breeding program to warrant taking chances.  We used to spray our livestock pens at shows with bleach and water.  The dairy goats usually came in before the sheep but who knows what germs were on the pens. 

When I had goats, I got rid of any animal with a lump in a lymph node spot.  My sheep don't get many abscesses, but will occasionally get one after shearing.  One way to avoid this is to give an antibiotic shot after shearing.  This helps avoid infection in a nick.  Also applying Wound-Kote or a similar topical antibiotic can prevent infection in a shearing nick. 

With advanced cases of Caseous Lymphadenitis abscesses are present in the lungs, vital organs, udder, etc.  These abscesses will only be seen during a necropsy after the animal dies.


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