# Looking for Paddock Plan Help



## Hemlock (Jan 23, 2016)

Background: I'm on 1.6 small acres. I've been wanting to move to a property with more acreage, but bc we bought when we did, we're upside down on our mortgage. We need to stay put for a long time. We love our house and our property (other than size), just not the lots of driving we have to do. So our plan is to put in a garage/barn (that'll be another post) and put in fencing so we can get 2 Nigerian Dwarf goat kids and their future offspring. I can't see us ever having more than 10 goats before the kids are weaned and sold or whatever. Our property has a hill out back that I'd like to place their paddocks on. It's brush/immature forest that was cleared by the builder or previous homeowners. It's mostly young beech trees with some young hemlock trees (not poisonous hemlock plants) and young pines. There's moss then grass in front of this area. The rock wall was made by us last year and easily moved.

I know we're talking a small area here, but if it's not too cramped, I'd like 4 separate areas so I can rotate them and possibly an aisle to direct them from their daytime shelter (4'x5.5' w/ a 2' covered porch). As this will be just 1 of my start up costs, I'll likely have to do 1 or 2 areas and add on over time.

Hopefully I properly attached a diagram. The pink square is where I'd like to move the daytime shelter to. The blue lines are gates.

I'm thinking 5' 2x4 no climb horse fence with 8' wooden posts and a hot wire near the bottom and another above the top. The hill has 2 boulders that I think the goats would enjoy playing on, but the biggest issue is that the large one is tall (hence the 5' fence), and I'm worried the goats or the neighbors dogs could easily go over the top. I guess I could move the fence further from the boulder, but the hill is steep behind it and there's a drop off a few feet to the left of it. Does anyone have any ideas on whether this will work or not? Any tips or changes you can suggest? Thank you for your help.


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## Latestarter (Jan 23, 2016)

Planning things out is always the fun part. Then comes the work of actually installing everything. You obviously live where there's cold and snow. Couple of comments:

You mentioned boulders and goats love to jump, especially when young. They also love to climb on things so the boulders will be great, as long as they aren't close to the fence. You did mention that... good thinking!

Goats eat bark and will "climb" the trunks of trees to get at leaves/twigs/branches/needles. So if you have the trees inside their enclosure, they will eventually kill the trees by girdling them. Just something to be aware of. Once dead, you'll want/need to "fell" them and that will wreak havoc on your fencing.

Since you're talking Nigies, which can breed year round, depending on if you'll get/keep your own buck to service them (or bring your does out or a temporary stud in) you'll probably want to keep the buck separated from the ladies so you can "plan" the pregnancies and when the kiddings will occur. 

You mentioned that you will be making babies, so your goat shelter will need a little room/space you can set aside for kidding stalls for the mommas and newborns. Those stalls "should be" big enough that a human can be in with the delivering goat in case intervention is required (figure about 6' x 8' or maybe a little larger). You can make movable "walls" for inside that you can put up and take down to create the stalls. 

Since you're dealing with a small property, it won't be as easy to do, but placement and orientaion of the barn/shelter should take sun light/wind/weather directions into consideration. You don't want the main opening facing into oncoming winds and blowing snow that will drift the opening closed or fill the shelter with snow.

If you plan on milking the does after the kids are weaned, you'll need a relatively sheltered place to put the milking stand (stanchion) so you're out of the weather while milking. The stanchion will/can also be used to restrain the goat for mani/pedis (hoof trimming), and grooming, as well as general health checks. It's also nice if it's separated from the general area so you can do these things in peace without all the other goats climbing all over you and so you can keep the milking area much cleaner than the general goat space.

Where you place your barn/shelter (deep winter) could create a LOT of work for you with hauling water/feed and just tending to them daily. Or running a water and electric line to the barn/shelter. But you'll still need to walk through deep snow and cold multiple times a day.

You'll also want a dry area where you can store your hay for them. Will this be inside the barn or somewhere else outside in the yard? Keeping 10 goats on what appears to be ~1 acre (or less leaving the house footprint and yard for human occupation) means dry lot. There won't be enough natural growth to feed them. You'll need to feed them hay.

Your present layout wastes a lot of ground for the access aisle, has a lot of fencing and gate requirements, and doesn't really show any access for humans into the shelter from outside. If drawn to scale, the shelter doesn't have near enough interior space to do much of what I listed above. 

With a max of 10 goats, having the 4 paddocks might make several of them really too small for those numbers. If it were me, I'd center the barn/shelter and do 3 paddocks; one to the left, one behind, and one to the right. I'd also try to keep them all about the same size (area wise) so you can cycle through on a more or less set schedule.

So the shelter would essentially have 4 doors/gates; the main entrance seen from the back deck, then a rear one to access the back paddock (down the central aisle of the barn) and on either side to access the side paddocks. I'd also have exterior gates into the side paddocks so they could be accessed from outside the barn/shelter. You can partition off a couple of areas more or less permanently inside to keep the hay (if desired) and for a milk room. The rest can just be one big general area until kidding time (unless you have a buck you need to keep separate), when you'd set up the smaller kidding stalls. If you need to keep the barn size down and not further separate inside areas to allow for a buck, you could always make a small moveable (towed by a lawn tractor for example) buck shelter that can be moved between paddocks so the buck doesn't ever come into the barn.

So essentially, all aspects of the barn/shelter should be your first and most important aspect for consideration. That will "drive" everything else that you'll need to do for your homestead. Hope this has helped.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 23, 2016)

You can have 10 ND's on your space, not a problem.
But, you don't really have enough space that you can really rotate and hope to feed them on that space.
They are going to kill your brush and you will have a "dry lot" and will have to rely on hay to feed them.
I know what I'm talking about because at one time I had over 20 goats on an acre.  I had it divided into 4 quadrants but they basically killed all of the undergrowth.
But, you can do this no problem as long as you are prepared to buy the hay to feed them.  When we were on a dry lot, we never had a problem with worms.
The main thing is to keep your waste hay cleaned up because after a few years we developed a coccidia issue because we weren't keeping it clean and lost a few kids.
We never had an issue with them killing larger trees, but a tree that was 3 or 4" in diameter, yes they killed.

When we moved to 5 acres and had more pasture, but not enough fencing to be able to rotate, we had to deal with a worm issue.


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## Hemlock (Jan 23, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> They also love to climb on things so the boulders will be great, as long as they aren't close to the fence.


How far from the boulder do you think the fence should be?


Latestarter said:


> So if you have the trees inside their enclosure, they will eventually kill the trees by girdling them.


It's mostly brush & saplings that I don't mind them eating. I would like to cover the trunks of the few mature trees in order to lessen erosion and provide them some shade.


Latestarter said:


> depending on if you'll get/keep your own buck to service them you'll probably want to keep the buck separated from the ladies so you can "plan" the pregnancies and when the kiddings will occur.


We will not keep a buck, so we'll have to take our does off site to breed.


Latestarter said:


> You mentioned that you will be making babies, so your goat shelter will need a little room/space you can set aside for kidding stalls for the mommas and newborns.


The garage/barn that we want to add before adding the fencing would be their night time, really bad weather, kidding, milking, hoof trimming, and illness shelter. This will have 2 main stalls that can be split into 4. 1 for milking and care, 1 for kidding and the other 2 combined or separated as needed. I don't plan on having more than 2 pregnant does at a time or keeping males (either sold really young for breeding or castrated and sold for pets or meat a bit older) past 6 months.


Latestarter said:


> Since you're dealing with a small property, it won't be as easy to do, but placement and orientaion of the barn/shelter should take sun light/wind/weather directions into consideration. You don't want the main opening facing into oncoming winds and blowing snow that will drift the opening closed or fill the shelter with snow.


Great points.


Latestarter said:


> Where you place your barn/shelter (deep winter) could create a LOT of work for you with hauling water/feed and just tending to them daily. Or running a water and electric line to the barn/shelter. But you'll still need to walk through deep snow and cold multiple times a day.


The main shelter will be attached to the garage which will be right off of the house. I think I could mostly do grain when milking or in the evening to help entice them into the main shelter then do hay & minerals in the daytime shelter and water just outside of that. Water will be the biggest issue. My husband usually does a path around the house with the snowblower so the paths between the house and the fencing and the main shelter should help, but I'll still be lugging buckets or removing the hose from the house after every use and using some sort of insulated cover over the spout. I'd like to eventually increase the grazing area and grow some of our fodder.


Latestarter said:


> You'll also want a dry area where you can store your hay for them. Will this be inside the barn or somewhere else outside in the yard? Keeping 10 goats on what appears to be ~1 acre (or less leaving the house footprint and yard for human occupation) means dry lot. There won't be enough natural growth to feed them. You'll need to feed them hay.


I'm still planning, but I think we could store the hay in the basement as it doesn't get moldy or under the deck on pallets under a tarp. I'd prefer to only do this if the bales are wrapped anyway. I don't want more than a week's worth in the barn (not pictured as it doesn't exist yet).


Latestarter said:


> Your present layout wastes a lot of ground for the access aisle, has a lot of fencing and gate requirements, and doesn't really show any access for humans into the shelter from outside. If drawn to scale, the shelter doesn't have near enough interior space to do much of what I listed above.


I agree. I wanted it wide so we could get the snowblower in there (see the gate at the far right). The human access would be on the right side of the aisle or just to the right of the shelter. See above regarding the more permanent shelter/barn.


Latestarter said:


> With a max of 10 goats, having the 4 paddocks might make several of them really too small for those numbers. If it were me, I'd center the barn/shelter and do 3 paddocks; one to the left, one behind, and one to the right. I'd also try to keep them all about the same size (area wise) so you can cycle through on a more or less set schedule.


I was worried that centering the daytime shelter would leave me with a section behind it that I couldn't see from the house or the backyard. Is it fine if I can't see a small part of their enclosure? What do you think about just creating 1 area for now as it'll just be 2 kids <1 year old and separating it into 3 next year when we're expecting kids?


Latestarter said:


> Hope this has helped.


Definitely! Thank you.


OneFineAcre said:


> They are going to kill your brush and you will have a "dry lot" and will have to rely on hay to feed them.


I don't want a dry lot. How much space do you recommend for up to 3 does and 2 of them with kids? We will have to supplement anyway you slice it, but I don't want them living on dirt and mud. I'd like to grow fodder. Also, I could improve our grass mixture then give them access to much of our lawn. We can also get a lot of branches and brush from the rest of our woods. I just don't want to fence too far into there as I fear it'll increase their chances of predation and make it harder for us to access them daily.


OneFineAcre said:


> When we were on a dry lot, we never had a problem with worms. When we moved to 5 acres and had more pasture, but not enough fencing to be able to rotate, we had to deal with a worm issue.


How did you keep the dry lot worm free?


OneFineAcre said:


> The main thing is to keep your waste hay cleaned up because after a few years we developed a coccidia issue because we weren't keeping it clean and lost a few kids.


I am planning on putting the waste hay and poop in the compost pile.

Thank you so much for the help!


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## Latestarter (Jan 25, 2016)

Hemlock said:


> How far from the boulder do you think the fence should be?



That would depend on the height of the boulder, but I would guess 5' of horizontal space should be fine. They not only have to clear the distance, but also the height to clear the fence. You also said you would be doing a line of hot wire over the top. Once the goats are trained to the hot wire (they need to get zapped a couple of times) they will respect it and not want to risk getting near it.



Hemlock said:


> I'm still planning, but I think we could store the hay in the basement as it doesn't get moldy or under the deck on pallets under a tarp. I'd prefer to only do this if the bales are wrapped anyway. I don't want more than a week's worth in the barn (not pictured as it doesn't exist yet).



I was just trying to save you having to move bales multiple times.  If you just set up a few pallets out right beside the enclosure fence near where you'll be feeding them, and cover it with a tarp, then you won't have to move it multiple times over as much distance. (It could also act as a minor wind block) You could open the tarp, grab a few flakes and load it directly into their feeders. You'll find that hay is much cheaper when you buy it in larger quantities, and late in the winter season, you'll be paying a huge premium for hay that was cut last summer/fall. If a bad haying season, you may have a difficult time finding any at all.



Hemlock said:


> I was worried that centering the daytime shelter would leave me with a section behind it that I couldn't see from the house or the backyard. Is it fine if I can't see a small part of their enclosure? What do you think about just creating 1 area for now as it'll just be 2 kids <1 year old and separating it into 3 next year when we're expecting kids?



I originally thought the shelter you drew all the way over on the left was to be it... Now that I realize it's just a daytime shelter for when they're out in the paddocks for use in rain or for shade, I understand better.  The daytime shelter doesn't need to be more than 4-5' tall, and maybe as deep, so the height of it won't really block much if any view from up on the deck or in the house. I absolutely think leaving it as one huge open space initially is fine! It will also spread out your expense and give you a chance to figure out what adjustments need to be made to your plan with time and experience.



Hemlock said:


> I don't want a dry lot. How much space do you recommend for up to 3 does and 2 of them with kids? We will have to supplement anyway you slice it, but I don't want them living on dirt and mud. I'd like to grow fodder. Also, I could improve our grass mixture then give them access to much of our lawn. We can also get a lot of branches and brush from the rest of our woods. I just don't want to fence too far into there as I fear it'll increase their chances of predation and make it harder for us to access them daily.



Considering how small your property is, it will be very difficult to keep them from denuding it. Even a couple of small goats can strip an acre bare in several week's time. Perhaps you might consider just doing a small dry lot, maybe 20' x 40' attached to their barn on the side of the yard, then fencing your entire property (back yard?) and only let them out to browse/graze while you are there with them? That way you can better control where they are eating and keep them off areas you're trying to allow to recover? They sell electric mesh fencing that is ~160' long that you prop up with fiberglass poles and is battery powered. You could then make an enclosure of whatever size/shape you wanted and put them inside it. As for predation, high quality fencing is first priority followed by electric/hot wire. Most coyotes and stray dogs won't mess with hot wire once they've been zapped. You just need to make sure the top/high strand is high enough as a coyote can jump 4' straight up, and the low strand is low enough that they can't dig under it.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 25, 2016)

A dry lot doesn't necessarily mean dirt and mud
It just basically means that you have to feed them
You will basically have what we had a wood lot but the goats will kill the undergrowth and browse and you are going to have to feed hay
You are going to have to more than supplement them with hay on the space you have
You don't really have an issue with worms unless they are on pasture
That's how worms are transmitted
Goat poops eggs
Eggs hatch into larvae
Larvae is on grass
Goat eats larvae
When the majority of their dry matter is hay then no transmission mechanism
When we were dry lot we never had to worm our goats
Over half were 0 EPG
None over 250 EPG which doesn't even require worming


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## Hemlock (Jan 27, 2016)

Thank you both so much! I knew I was going to have to buy hay, but I was hoping to use as much browse as I can. If I could eventually grow 50% of their food, that would make me happy. Never tried to grow fodder, but I think that might help, too. I think I'll fence in that whole area and get electronet next year for when we're home and outside. I'm leaning towards Nigerian kids with horns so I don't want to leave them in a lower fence with wider spacing when I'm not around in case someone tries to jump over or gets stuck.


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## Latestarter (Jan 28, 2016)

Not wanting to start a debate... it already exists if you care to read some threads... 

You say you are "leaning to ... with horns..." First, I don't know if you have children in 4H or are planning to, or maybe might show your goats, or even sell future kids to other 4H parents, but keep in mind that with dairy goats (Nigies are dairy) and showing, horns are disqualifiers. If you're doing pure breds or for 4H specifically and some other sanctioned shows, I believe the goat must be owned (in the name of) by the person showing. Sorry I'm not up on this, but there are threads already that explain this as well. There's a wealth of info on all these subjects ready for your  pleasure!

There are all kinds of pro/anti horn discussions (as I said, NOT trying to fuel the debate!) on the site. I have no serious feelings either way, but lean towards no horns simply for safety reasons. Too may folks have been gored, accidentally as well as on purpose. This could be a rather serious concern if you have young children, whose eyes are right about at horn level. Horns also exacerbate the "getting heads stuck in fences" issue. 

Fodder is a great way to supplement their diet, but is not really realistic as far as a primary food source for them for several reasons. Remember that goats are "primarily" browsers, not grazers. They need "woody" plants like leaves, bark, tree limbs, pine needles, acorns, woody weeds, vines, shrubs, etc. Of course since most folks don't have wood lots or overgrown shrub laden properties, they feed the goats hay as their primary food source.

Keep in mind that a nigie kid is VERY small! They can fit their heads and bodies through some pretty small spots... like 4x4 fencing... Lots of discussions on fencing options on here also  You mentioned neighbor's dogs...  one of the largest "predators" of suburban (and even urban) livestock (especially smaller or first born/young) is dogs... yours, the neighbors, and strays. Fencing should be your #1 concern for safety of your herd. NOT an area to scrimp on.

Looking fwd to pics of the new arrivals... after they arrive of course!


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## Hemlock (Jan 29, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Not wanting to start a debate... it already exists if you care to read some threads...



I've read them and have more reading to do. I'll post on a horns thread if I have questions.



Latestarter said:


> Fodder is a great way to supplement their diet, but is not really realistic as far as a primary food source for them for several reasons. Remember that goats are "primarily" browsers, not grazers. They need "woody" plants like leaves, bark, tree limbs, pine needles, acorns, woody weeds, vines, shrubs, etc. Of course since most folks don't have wood lots or overgrown shrub laden properties, they feed the goats hay as their primary food source.


So what's the difference between growing fodder grass and feeding hay in winter? Is it because it's hard to get the proper grains like alfalfa to grow? Is it due to the moisture content? Something else? I only want to use fodder as a supplement but I'm confused as the difference between the above.



Latestarter said:


> Keep in mind that a nigie kid is VERY small! They can fit their heads and bodies through some pretty small spots... like 4x4 fencing... Lots of discussions on fencing options on here also  You mentioned neighbor's dogs...  one of the largest "predators" of suburban (and even urban) livestock (especially smaller or first born/young) is dogs... yours, the neighbors, and strays. Fencing should be your #1 concern for safety of your herd. NOT an area to scrimp on.



I agree. I only wanted the electronet as a supplementary fence for when we're outside. I thought I said that above, but I could be wrong. Luckily, in the 9+ years we've been here, we've seen dogs on our property 2 or 3 times. They were followed by our neighbor calling them back. I'm including them in my list of predators to be watchful of.



Latestarter said:


> Looking fwd to pics of the new arrivals... after they arrive of course!


I can't wait 'til I can post some! Hope we can get done what we need to so I don't have to wait another year to get them.


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## Latestarter (Jan 29, 2016)

One of the main issues with fodder is scale and space requirements. How much fodder do you intend to give daily to each, then space requirements to grow that much. How long to grow to feed-able point? If 10 days, then you'll need 10 times the space of one days feeding to continually/rotationally have daily rations. Do you have someplace indoors/warm/well lit for growing it? I've heard that you need to also be careful about mold due to the moisture. Folks do fodder with many different things... oats, wheat, barley, BOSS... I guess it could be done with just about any grow-able seed. Not sure of what the nutrient structure is for each... I hope you'll let us know how it goes for you when you're doing it!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 29, 2016)

The main issue with fodder is it's mostly water.
You don't have the same amount of dry matter for an equal weight of hay.
If you do some research on here, @SheepGirl  did a lot of the math.


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## Pamela (Jan 29, 2016)

We've grown fodder a couple of times. We don't have a good system (commercial or otherwise) and while it is easy to grow, we've found it darned near impossible to keep it from growing mold. The chickens end up eating it, because I don't want to feed moldy fodder to anything else.


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