# I NEED HELP GOAT DYING



## blondei36 (Apr 2, 2011)

I have a newbian goat approx 1yr old.  He has a bladder stone and the vet came out yesterday and flushed the stone out of the way.  The vet is closed today and my goat is unable to pee at all and is in a lot of pain.  If anyone has any info to help please let me know.  I can flush the penis again but I do not have anything to sedate him and i do not want to do anything to put him in anymore danger than he is already in.  Thank you for reading an any information...

Mary


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## damummis (Apr 2, 2011)

I don't know but I hope someone will chime in.


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## blondei36 (Apr 2, 2011)

Me also I am so worried he is going to die.  He is a\our family pet and this is so hard to see him in so much pain...


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 2, 2011)

I have never used it, but sure gel from the store that is used for canning, can change the Ph of the urine and possibly help disolve the stone.


You may also beable to purchase ammonia chloride from your feed store and drench them with that. 

I am sorry, but Urinary calculi is not good, and many do not survive it especially if there is no urine flow to fluch the system. Then surgery is often the only option. 

I will try to find you the exact dosages.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 2, 2011)

Here is the dosages for Ammonia chloride, if you can find it at a feed store, some will sell it by the pound. Never hurts to call and ask. 

http://uvalde.tamu.edu/staff/Machen7.htm


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## blondei36 (Apr 2, 2011)

Thank you so much


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## jodief100 (Apr 2, 2011)

I had also read that 'fruit fresh' will work in a pinch to help w/ urinary calculi.  It's carried in grocery stores in the food preservation section.

The dosage is dissolve 2 T of fruit fresh in 2 oz of water and drench with it.

Read through this link too:

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1539

Good luck.


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## blondei36 (Apr 2, 2011)

ok i will try thanks so much...


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 2, 2011)

fresh fruit   2 tablespoons, mixed in just a little water to drench.   If you fill him up with too much water and he isn't peeing at all it will kill him before you can get him to the vet.

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8738&p=1

here is a very lengthy thread on UC. but this goat ended up having an infection.


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## blondei36 (Apr 2, 2011)

I really can not get him to drink anything he refuses.  He is on antibiotics right now that we started last night and he got another does this morning.  I know i do not want to put to much in him till i can get his pee to flow.  I can flush his penis again but with no pain killer in him i am not sure if he will be able to tolerate it.


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## jodief100 (Apr 2, 2011)

You will have to drench him.  He will not drink the Fruit Fresh or Ammonia Chloride willingly.  Get a drencher from the feed store and use that.


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## elevan (Apr 2, 2011)

Get Fruit Fresh and mix with just enough lemon juice to liquify...it doesn't take much.  Such it up into a syringe (no needle) and squirt it down his throat (drench).

I've had to do this.  He's not going to like it but you can get it done.  My goat ended up with a penal sheath infection but it closed the end of his urethra just as a stone would. 

There is not a guarantee that this will work but if you can't get the vet to do surgery right now and have to get the goat through till Monday this is probably your best bet.  The thing about the fruit fresh is that it is highly acidic and I liked using lemon juice and not water to up the acidity even more.

Do NOT try to make him drink water and don't use too much liquid to make the drench if he's not peeing at all.

Hope your guy gets through until Monday


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## elevan (Apr 2, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Get Fruit Fresh and mix with just enough lemon juice to liquify...it doesn't take much.  Such it up into a syringe (no needle) and squirt it down his throat (drench).
> 
> I've had to do this.  He's not going to like it but you can get it done.  My goat ended up with a penal sheath infection but it closed the end of his urethra just as a stone would.
> 
> ...


ETA: Do the drench every 3-4 hours.


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## blondei36 (Apr 2, 2011)

k i will try it ty sooo much for your help


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## Roll farms (Apr 2, 2011)

Did the vet cut his pizzle off?  

(Skinny 'worm like' appendage on the end of the penis)

If he didn't, you might do that w/ sterile scissors (I used little sewing scissors) to see if that helps.  Ours had a blockage in his pizzle and my dh and I had to do that...no vet available on a Saturday at 4 pm. 

It only bled a little and he was able to pee after that. 

It won't help if the blockage is in the S curve in the penis itself (down toward the scrotum) but it might if his pizzle's blocked.

That and fruit fresh or Ammonium Chloride is all I can offer....GOOD LUCK!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Apr 2, 2011)

Im sorry for him..  Poor guy.  I hope he passes that for you!  Good luck.  Everyone gave great advice so far.  UC is tough.  

Hope it works out for you guys.


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## chicks & ducks (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm no help but wanted to chime in with a bit of emotional support and fingers crossed for you! hugs.


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## whetzelmomma (Apr 2, 2011)

From the people I've listened to talking about stones... by the time Bucks get them and you can tell, it usually kills them.


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## elevan (Apr 2, 2011)

whetzelmomma said:
			
		

> From the people I've listened to talking about stones... by the time Bucks get them and you can tell, it usually kills them.


Thankfully I didn't have to deal with it...but my vet said he's had great success doing the surgical procedure that "makes them pee like a girl".  They won't be any good as a buck (but make great heat detectors) according to my vet.

I know many people call it the buck killer but after talking to my vet, I have hope for them.


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## christy_was_here (Apr 2, 2011)

I don't know anything much about blockages except in cats, so I'm really not of any help, but I just wanted to send good thoughts your way. I hope your fellow pulls through.


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## blondei36 (Apr 4, 2011)

Thank you to all that have posted.  Yes the vet did cut it off and I did the fresh fruit with the lemon juice.  4 hours later he started peeing.  Did really good for 2 days and now not peeing again.    I feel so bad for him I just wish there was more i could do for him...


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## elevan (Apr 4, 2011)

blondei36 said:
			
		

> Thank you to all that have posted.  Yes the vet did cut it off and I did the fresh fruit with the lemon juice.  4 hours later he started peeing.  Did really good for 2 days and now not peeing again.    I feel so bad for him I just wish there was more i could do for him...


Are you still doing the Fruit Fresh?  It should only be a temporary measure but should be continued until you come up with a more permanent plan.

Can you take him to the vet for the operation to "make him pee like a girl"?  I don't know what the expense of it is...  My vet did say that they basically cut just below the anus and reroute the urethra (s curve portion) out right below the anus.  He said he has really good success with this and they are able to pass the stones easily after.


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## blondei36 (Apr 4, 2011)

my vet said it would be over 600 dollars   I only had to do the fresh fruit one time the 1st time I posted and I have done it 2 times today. The vet i had come out to the house said that it was a 50/50 chance he would survive.  What does the fresh fruit do anyway.  I mean I do know that it has acid in it but it really helped the first time.  I think he passed the blockage and then another blocked this morning.  Right now he is resting in my bathroom so I can watch him over night and I just do not have the heart to leave him outside alone...


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## scrambledmess (Apr 4, 2011)

I hope it works on him tonight.  Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## blondei36 (Apr 4, 2011)

scrambledmess said:
			
		

> I hope it works on him tonight.  Keeping my fingers crossed.


TY it will be along night


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## Roll farms (Apr 4, 2011)

Order / get some ammonium chloride to give him daily...maybe even for the rest of his life.  He seems prone.
Hoeggers or Caprine Supply has it in small packages, or maybe your feed store can get it.

You may have to adjust his diet so that his CA ratio is in balance.  

I feed our bucks Purina Noble Goat, it has AC added to help prevent UC and is CA balanced.  

If they get too much grain it will contribute to AC...by grain I mean corn, oats, etc., not feed.  Noble goat is a non-textured pellet.


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## jessica117 (Apr 5, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Order / get some ammonium chloride to give him daily...maybe even for the rest of his life.  He seems prone.
> Hoeggers or Caprine Supply has it in small packages, or maybe your feed store can get it.
> 
> You may have to adjust his diet so that his CA ratio is in balance.
> ...


If you get Noble Goat be sure and check the label... depending on what plant it was produced at, it may not contain AC.  What I am able to buy here in TN does not have it.


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## Roll farms (Apr 5, 2011)

jessica117 said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
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> 
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Good point!  I keep forgetting that....


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 5, 2011)

yup, keep him on the fresh fruit until you get some ammonia chloride. 

Only feed him hay, pasture or medicated goat feed with ammonia chloride in it, you can also top dress with a little extra ammonia chloride or put it in there water.   

Your goal with the fresh fruit/lemon is to acidify his urine so it disolves the extra calcium in his urinary tract.  Some people like to add Apple cider vinegar to the water, also. To try to add more acidity to the water. 

some people don't beleive the apple cider works at all. 

The ammonia Chloride does work, if they are still peeing some, the system needs to flush out the calcium. 
Do NOT feed him Corn, oats, grains. only hay and balanced goat feed.


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## stano40 (Apr 5, 2011)

What about calf manna?  I give my goats some with their goat noble.  The Purina goat feed I picked up because they were out of goat noble was more like sweet feed.  That feed I noticed had some cracked corn in it.

bob


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## cmjust0 (Apr 5, 2011)

blondei36 said:
			
		

> Thank you to all that have posted.  Yes the vet did cut it off and I did the fresh fruit with the lemon juice.  4 hours later he started peeing.  Did really good for 2 days and now not peeing again.    I feel so bad for him I just wish there was more i could do for him...


Give him banamine RIGHT NOW.  Then follow that with *DEXAMETHASONE*!!!!!!  

Get your vet to give you about a week's worth of Dex..  The dosage is about 1ml/20lbs, given IM, and will need to be tapered down as he comes off it..  Might not even hurt to go 10-days with the last 3-5 being the tapered-down dosages.  Give PenG (1ml/15lbs 2x/day) for the entire time he's on the Dex, as it's an immune suppressant.

The reason I'm suggesting these two meds is because there's a good chance that what you're seeing right now is inflammation, and not necessarily more stones.  Banamine is a good, quick anti-inflammatory, and Dex *should* bring the swelling down and keep it down until his urethra can heal enough not to be quite so swollen..

Something else that might help is a shot of Acepromazine...it's a smooth muscle relaxer and I *know* it works on the muscles of the UI tract, which may be cramping..  I've personally witnessed a goat that could only dribble let loose and pee like a racehorse once a shot of Acepromazine kicked in..  I'd *highly recommend* trying it..

If your vet balks at all this, tell him **OTHER PEOPLE DO THIS** and get him thinking about inflammation..  Better yet, have him externalize the goat's penis and look at it...it'll most likely be extremely swollen and angry looking..  I brought one through a bad case of UC using anti-inflammatories, and I've recommended it to others who have had similar good luck.

Btw...is he dribbling at all?  I'm sure he's grunting and straining and hanging his head and all that, but when he grunts, can he get out even a few drops?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 5, 2011)

stano40 said:
			
		

> What about calf manna?  I give my goats some with their goat noble.  The Purina goat feed I picked up because they were out of goat noble was more like sweet feed.  That feed I noticed had some cracked corn in it.
> 
> bob


Calcium to phosporus ratio should be 2 parts calcium to 1.2 parts phosphorus, It is high levels of phosphorus in corn and grain that caused the onset of UC. So check the label. 

The other other possible factors as well, 

castrating too early
too much baking soda.

"Urinary Calculi is almost always the result of improper feeding by the producer. A proper calcium to phosphorus ratio in feed, hay, and minerals is critical; this ratio should be 2-1/2 to 1. Although the disease is called Urinary Calculi, the real culprit is phosphorus -- specifically too much phosphorus in relation to the amount of calcium in the diet. Feeding too much grain concentrates and/or feeding grain concentrates with an improper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio is a major cause of Urinary Calculi. Overfeeding or improper feeding of grain concentrates causes solid particles to develop in the urine; these solid particles block the flow of urine out of the goat's body, causing great pain, discomfort, and oftentimes death. Producers who have experienced urinary-tract stones themselves will understand the seriousness of and pain associated with this condition. 

Besides grain concentrates, there are other factors affecting the calcium-to-phosphous ratio in the goat's diet. If the minerals being fed have the proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio and the goats are not being fed a diet heavy in grain concentrates, then the producer should have both water and hay tested for mineral content. Many types of hay (Bermuda is one example) are high in phosphorus. Hay fertilized with chicken litter will be even higher in phosphorus levels. Adding calcium carbonate (ground limestone) to goat minerals can help bring the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio back to the 2-1/2 to 1 range. However, it is essential to work with a goat nutritionist to find the right amount of calcium carbonate to add to the mineral mixture to get these ratios on target. "

Another good article:

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/urincalc.html


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## elevan (Apr 5, 2011)

*cmjust makes a very good point - you could be dealing with the swelling from an irritated urethra.*  Call your vet right away and try to get the medicines that he suggested.  In the meantime you can use children's liquid ibuprofen at 2x the label dose (don't use more than 48 hrs and only until you can get the proper medicines from your vet)

20kids is right about the phosphorus being the real culprit in UC.

While the biggest concern with UC is a urinary blockage caused by a stone...don't forget that they will tend to develop a "sludge" of sand like grains in their bladder that can bind together to form more large stones later.  I would top dress his feed with AC even if the goat pellet has it in it too.  I got lucky and was only dealing with an infection but I took the time to have a really good conversation with my vet about UC.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 5, 2011)

I've nothing to offer but positive thoughts and prayers.  I've never dealt with this on any level, but am thankful you brought it to the board as a learning experience for the rest of us.

Sending positive thoughts and prayers.  Please let us know how he's doing.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 5, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Calcium to phosporus ratio should be 2 parts calcium to 1.2 parts phosphorus, It is high levels of phosphorus in corn and grain that caused the onset of UC. So check the label.


Nope.  It should be 2 or 2-1/2 parts calcium _at least_ to 1 part phosphorus.  A 2 to 1.2 ratio is the same as 1.66:1, which is too low.



			
				20kids said:
			
		

> The other other possible factors as well,
> 
> castrating too early
> too much baking soda.


Or a urinary tract infection, which raised the pH of the bladder...  Or a genetic predisposition...  Or a metabolic issue...  Or the feeding of 'spring' or 'hi-mag' cattle minerals...  Or a lack of clean drinking water...  



			
				SG said:
			
		

> Urinary Calculi is almost always the result of improper feeding by the producer. A proper calcium to phosphorus ratio in feed, hay, and minerals is critical; this ratio should be 2-1/2 to 1. Although the disease is called Urinary Calculi, the real culprit is phosphorus -- specifically too much phosphorus in relation to the amount of calcium in the diet. Feeding too much grain concentrates and/or feeding grain concentrates with an improper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio is a major cause of Urinary Calculi. Overfeeding or improper feeding of grain concentrates causes solid particles to develop in the urine; these solid particles block the flow of urine out of the goat's body, causing great pain, discomfort, and oftentimes death. Producers who have experienced urinary-tract stones themselves will understand the seriousness of and pain associated with this condition.


I actually agree with everything here EXCEPT the analogy between UC and a couched reference to kidney stones in humans..  They're totally and completely different..  As soon as I read that, the name "Suzanne Gasparotto" came to mind..  Sure enough.....

:/



			
				SG said:
			
		

> Besides grain concentrates, there are other factors affecting the calcium-to-phosphous ratio in the goat's diet. If the minerals being fed have the proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio and the goats are not being fed a diet heavy in grain concentrates, then the producer should have both water and hay tested for mineral content.


High mineral content of water is another misconception..  Unless you have water with high phosphate content -- which is unlikely -- it shouldn't be a problem..  



			
				SG said:
			
		

> Many types of hay (Bermuda is one example) are high in phosphorus. Hay fertilized with chicken litter will be even higher in phosphorus levels.


She fails to mention here that Ca ratio in hay is almost never an issue in and of itself, because goats recycle phosphorus through saliva, and eating forage -- baled, or green -- takes a lot of saliva.

That's actually one reason why high-concentrate diets are dangerous; they don't need to produce as much saliva, so less phosphorus is being *used* by the body.

That's why you can feed a high phosphate grass hay to a wether and he'll most likely be fine, whereas the same can NOT be said for feeding high phosphate concentrated rations.



			
				SG said:
			
		

> Adding calcium carbonate (ground limestone) to goat minerals can help bring the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio back to the 2-1/2 to 1 range. However, it is essential to work with a goat nutritionist to find the right amount of calcium carbonate to add to the mineral mixture to get these ratios on target.


Oh, well let me jump right on the phone and call my "goat nutritionist"... :/ 





			
				elevan said:
			
		

> While the biggest concern with UC is a urinary blockage caused by a stone...don't forget that they will tend to develop a "sludge" of sand like grains in their bladder that can bind together to form more large stones later.


That's actually another common misconception..  It's not as if they can pass the sandy grains, either..  There's a hairpin turn in their urethra called the 'sigmoid flexure' which is where lots of stuff gets caught..  It doesn't necessarily have to be a single big stone or a large, cohesive aggragate of the sandy stuff...the sandy stuff itself can get stuck in there, too.

Not to mention...can you imagine how much damage is done to the urethra as the goat passes *sand*??  That's what leads to the inflammation..

That's also one of the reasons why UC is very different from kidney stones in humans..


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 5, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> SG said:
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You mean, you don't have yours on speed dial?


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## elevan (Apr 5, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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Very good point.  Thank you.


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## blondei36 (Apr 5, 2011)

wow thanks for all of the great information.  My goat still has not peed and now he is very swollen.  The vet still will not call me back and the other farm animal vet is out sick   I am so stressed for my goat.  He is now suffering and I feel so bad for him.  I also pulled the penis back to look and see if i could see anything i could help him pass and his penis appears to be black when yesterday was a healthy pink?  I am concerned that his bladder has ruptured but i do not know the signs of this?


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## elevan (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't know the signs for a ruptured bladder...but a black penis sounds like dead tissue    Not good.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 5, 2011)

Is the whole penis black?  Or just the area the vet cut off?  

I don't know if this will help or not, but I found this when reading through another site.

"The pizzle is the "curley-qued" appendage on the end of the penis. Oftentimes the pizzle of a goat with Urinary Calculi is black and crusty in appearance. "

From this site:  http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html


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## blondei36 (Apr 5, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> Is the whole penis black?  Or just the area the vet cut off?
> 
> I don't know if this will help or not, but I found this when reading through another site.
> 
> ...


All i could see is the head of the penis and he is so swollen no more would come out.  The vet cut off the pizzle and maybe that is what is causing it to be black.  it would be nice if he would at least call me back so i would know for sure if that is normal...all he gave me was antibiotics and told me no more grain at all.  only grass and hay and PUSH fluids.  well when goat stopped peeing i stopped fluids because i did not want that to hurt him.  I am afraid to even to give him the antibiotics today due to the concentration build up in his system.  also he is still eating leaves and pooping normal...


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 5, 2011)

Is there another vet somewhat close to you?  I realize you might have to drive out of your general area, but if you can get an anti-inflamatory in his system, maybe that will help.  Otherwise, if he cannot urinate, you may very well be running out of time.

It is possible...mind you, I said possible....that the black you're seeing is from the extreme irritation and swelling.  

I feel so bad for him going through this as it must be extremely painful.


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## scrambledmess (Apr 5, 2011)

I can't imagine how painful this must be for him.  I am so sorry


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## blondei36 (Apr 5, 2011)

yes i sit in the bathroom with him and we cry together.  I wish I could just fix it.  I have gone 50 miles out of my area to try and find a vet for him...i know it sounds strange but he is like one of my kids...I stayed up with him for the last 2 nights to make sure he is not alone...and we are both very tired...


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## Roll farms (Apr 5, 2011)




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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 6, 2011)

The pen/dex would be good and doesn't require the vet to see the goat again if he absolutely can't.  He could at least give you what you need if you stop by the office.  It's a weekday for crying out loud!  Sorry you're going through this.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 6, 2011)

It's not black, it's dark purple...that's because it's swollen.  That's where the banamine/dex would come in.  If at all possible, get him started on that *right away*..

The signs of a ruptured bladder are basically that the animal will brighten up and seem to be getting better for a few days, then die.  If he's still miserable, he's not ruptured yet.

Is he dribbling at all???  Dripping, dribbling, whatever you want to call it..  Is there any urine leaving his body at all??

If it makes you feel any better, I know exactly what he looks like because I saw exactly what you're talking about in the case of UC that caused me to have to learn all this..  Dex, PenG, and NSAIDS...

That was over a year ago, and he's out grazing as we speak.


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## Araylee (Apr 6, 2011)

Ow ow ow! I sure hope he gets better soon, that sounds so painful!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 6, 2011)

Hoping for an update.

I do hope he's doing better and you'll both get to sleep well tonight.


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## blondei36 (Apr 6, 2011)

I am sorry to say goat passed away at 8:45 tonight.  I want to thank each and everyone of you that have posted on him.  It really helps to know that people understand what you and your pet is going through.  I will continue to be on her and maybe I can help someone else that has to go through this.


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## jodief100 (Apr 6, 2011)




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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 6, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear this.


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## elevan (Apr 6, 2011)

I am sooo sorry


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## Roll farms (Apr 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry.


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## jessica117 (Apr 6, 2011)

I am so sorry.


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## blondei36 (Apr 6, 2011)

TY all so much...


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2011)

Really sorry to hear that.


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