# Cissy is positive for CL, vet is trying to convince not to euthanize.



## lupinfarm (Jul 11, 2010)

I've never noticed this before but I grabbed Cissy to stop her from ramming April and I felt a lump on her neck! Sure enough, there is a sizeable lump (about the size of a quarter). I don't remember it being there before and since I hook them up to a leash everyday I certainly would have noticed a freaking lump. I checked Mione's neck and she has nothing. It is off center about halfway down her neck. Can things ever go right around here, so now I'm all worried its CL. Its covered in hair and its not especially soft. Mum thought maybe a benign tumour? I suppose thats entirely possible? Or a horsefly bite? 

Someone help me out here, any other ideas aside from CL? Of course they weren't bought tested so naturally I have to expect the unexpected but I did have them tested for CAE and both came back negative. Worst of all I'm leaving tonight for Toronto and now not only am I leaving Cissy the evil in with poor little April the newbie, but now Cissy has a freaking lump. The lump is not near her jaw line but further down on her neck. 

FYI, No one has had shots recently and the girls will likely need worming soon.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 11, 2010)

Okay I got a photo of the lump. I had to outline it in red because she's white and it's white and it doesn't show up well but if you look close you can see it. 







Its way down her neck, not even close to her lymph glands.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2010)

Don't panic.

It *could* be CL.  (It's in a sort of common spot for them...) Or it could be an allergic reaction, sting, benign cyst, or abscess that ISN'T CL, etc.

I generally don't 'pop' them until the hair starts to fall off (that way I know they'll empty easily and clean out w/ out refilling w/ pus)....you have to let them get 'ripe'.

The BEST way to know is to have a vet draw out a sample (and for goat's sake, NOT in the barn / high goat traffic area...) and send it off or test it themselves.

In any case, until the hair starts to fall off, it's "safe"....once the hair's lost it will pop on it's own w/ in a day (could be more, could be less).

It will itch, and they will spread the pus trying to scratch it.  

If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask....there's just too much to know / say / suggest and w/out a definitive diagnosis...it may be moot.

I know vetting is expensive / hard to find in your area, but w/out a test, there IS no way to KNOW, even w/ the excellent pic provided.

eta pic


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## lupinfarm (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks Roll. Mum is still thinking something like an infected splinter or the like. I DO NOT remember it being there this morning when I put her out in the little goatie pasture. I have to grab her collar every morning and I don't remember it being there at all. My mum had this splinter she got, doesn't even remember getting it, that got infected and pussed up and created a lump like Cissy's on her finger and it could be a bug sting/bite (Dragonfly, Horsefly, Bee sting). Its like it was there literally overnight. No. Maybe in a matter of hours. I found it because I was holding her off from butting April and grabbed her collar and felt it. We *are* going to call the vet. I told my mum since I'm out of town right now to keep an eye on it for a day, and we'll call the vet out to look at it/inspect.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 11, 2010)

Oh I should mention, *my mum swears that when she touched the lump it felt warm*. Now I don't have the "magic hands" and can never feel warmth in an area. I have hot hands.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2010)

I hope nothing but the best for you / Cissy....but get it tested.

Wishful thinking and hope will NOT stop CL.  This I know.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 11, 2010)

Yeah I know, we're calling the vet in the morning to come out. Its just concerning because we're pretty broke right now :/


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## lupinfarm (Jul 12, 2010)

Okay the earliest the vet can get out to the farm is Wednesday afternoon so we've got her coming out.


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## 4hmama (Jul 12, 2010)

I'd seperate her from the herd, and away from the area that the other goats are kept - just in case it is CL and the abscess bursts.  You do NOT want it to infect the area where your other goats have access....  Better to be safe than sorry.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 12, 2010)

I have nowhere to put her. Thats the entire problem. All I have is a chainlink dog pen behind the house but the dogs are in that during the day. We have absolutely no where else to put her at all. 

Mum is keeping an eye on it while I am away, this morning it was still the same as last night. Same size and still had all the hair on it. I told her that if the hair disappears to put an emerge call in to the vet and get her out of the shed.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 12, 2010)

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5461

These threads belong together. The above thread is one posted by my mum. She was worried because I was semi-freaking out earlier.


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## Roll farms (Jul 13, 2010)

The question is, if you get a confirmed CL diagnosis....have you decided what to do?

I live w/ it.  
I don't regret it (most of the time)....but if you decide you can't, don't send the goat down the road to be someone else's problem.

I just couldn't make myself kill them over it...


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## lupinfarm (Jul 13, 2010)

We can't live with it. I have nowhere to isolate her at all and its horrible but I won't make it someone elses problem either. She'd be humanely euthanized by the vet.


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## Roll farms (Jul 13, 2010)

I will  for you that it's not.


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## jojo@rolling acres farm (Jul 13, 2010)

I was thinking this could be an injection site abcess...but re-read your post and see that they haven't been given any shots recently. 

Pls don't panic. Panic never solves or helps any situation. If it does happen to be CL - ask around and maybe even your vet knows of people with CL positive herds -  that may give her a home. 

If it is CL you can actually make a vaccine using the contents of the abcess. Each farm or herd has it's own distinct vaccine. 

I raise goats and test my herd against CL. Three years ago several weeks after selling three of my babies a lady that I sold them to called me and announced that according to her vet, the babies had CL. I was totally freaked out. Long story short - I spent hundred of dollars testing my herd - all came back negative. No abcesses were found at all. I keep a closed herd and went over and over in my mind each and every transaction and quarantine situation that I had encountered over the years. I had a vet and vet tech do the procedure an send away the samples. They draw blood from each animal and mark the vial.  Waiting for the results was difficult. Each day I'd run my hand over each and every goat looking for signs of CL.  My herd was clean. When I got the negative results back - I shared them with  the person who had purchased my babies. I called her and sent her the printed lab report. I also sent it to her vet. I came to find out that when her vet treated one of the babies for an abcess - she (the vet) assumed it was CL. SHE NEVER SENT IN A SAMPLE of the contents of the abcess. SHE JUST ASSUMED it was CL. Her vet never ever answered my telphone calls. The messages were left with a real live person and on an answering machine

Meanwhile, the woman and her family proceeded to tell anyone and everyone that would listen, that I had CL in my herd. They were very careful to say how fair I had treated them and how informed they had become as buyers and new goat people thanks to me...but I had CL in my herd. They spent a lot of time at the Goat show at our State Fair - telliing their tale. Once given the negative results...they never did say they were sorry or make an attempt to retract anything they had said previous to getting the negative results. 

This is why I caution you not to panic. I wish I had all those days of pain and panic back. During the time I was waiting for the results to come back from the lab. I did a lot of research. I went into it thinking I would have to wipe out my entire herd or every goat that tested negative. This is when I found out that there are farms that keep closed herds that are CL positive and the goats live their lives out without any trouble.  During this time I learned about the vaccine that I could have created for my herd. I spent hours on the phone with the lab that creates the vaccine. It is expensive - but when faced with culling an entire herd...it seems almost resonable. 

I can't tell you how painful the entire situation was. Don't panic - take some time to do some research. People like to pass on information about CL taht may or may not apply to your farm and not all of it may be true. You'll live through this...so can your doe. There will be better days ahead. Good luck on Wednesday. 

Joni


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## lupinfarm (Jul 13, 2010)

My issue is that finding a CL positive herd will be next to impossible since NO ONE tests :/ My vet may be able to help but Cissy is a Pygmy cross and thus is probably not going to be high on the priority list for a CL positive herd (and since most herds here are commercial herds, see what I mean?). 

Anyway vet had an emerge call and is late to our place, I'm not there but she should have come and gone by now.. just waiting for an update.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 13, 2010)

I don't think it's CL.  Yeah, it's an abscess, and yeah, it's in one of the right places for CL...but still, I don't think it's CL.

Jes sayin'.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 13, 2010)

Vet came

She says she doesn't believe it is CL (and infact she said ITS NOT CL, DON'T WORRY) but she said its a good thing we called her BECAUSE it IS an infection (likely a splinter from the fence Cissy enjoys rubbing herself on) and it is very infected but the kicker is that it is right over the jugular and there was a risk of Septecemia. She drained it, gave Cissy a shot of antibiotics and blukoted it. 

She said it is not a common place in her experience for CL abscesses to show up. 

Mum and her had a chat about Case-Bac. She says she IS prepared to sell us Case-Bac but to be aware that in older goats it CAN cause fatal reactions and if we are willing to take the risk (she'd give us epi, but...) then she will sell us some. If we want some for kids born on the property, she definitely will sell us some. She said give it time, Canada is in the testing process of a CL vaccine (I'm assuming Glanvac) and it may be available within the year (unlikely).


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## cmjust0 (Jul 13, 2010)

Did the vet actually save some of the exudate to be sent off for testing _just in case?_


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## lupinfarm (Jul 13, 2010)

I wasn't there. And I don't believe so. I can't even afford to have the test done at over $40 for the test alone, that doesn't include vet fees and shipping. However, I am going to as soon as I can afford to, have blood pulled on both her and Mione to be sent off for CL testing. I should have had it done at the time I had the CAE done, would have been cheaper but what can ya do, right?

Apparently the pus shared no characteristics with CL pus (aside from being pus lol) and we're going to run a blood test later this month on both just to be sure. 

As a bonus though, mum has started calling the kid creep "April's Apartment" and April has been hanging out and sleeping in her little Kid Den lol.


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## glenolam (Jul 14, 2010)

Glad to hear she's doing well!

Isn't it funny how the kids love to find the smallest places?  Mine still love to try sleeping under the hay feeder, but they're getting too big.  Now the new pygmys I have love to sleep _inside_ the hay feeder when it gets low!  And the slats for the feeder are only about 4" apart!


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## lupinfarm (Jul 14, 2010)

Haha well I'm just glad she's spending more time on the ground and less time in the air on the hay feeder  Things have settled down at home with Cissy's infection and such. Truth is I could have isolated her but she would have been isolated WAY down at the barn (and trust me, its a long way) without any other animals because we don't use the barn for anything other than storing feed and the well pump though there is a small stall near the back that is in rough shape but would have worked. Mum is thinking of perhaps getting an extra chainlink dog run and setting it up in the garage next time we have an emerge like this. Our garage is a dirt floor but we're having a pad done in there next spring. 

And plus, the lump hadn't lost any hair or really gotten significantly bigger so the risk of it bursting was pretty much low.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 14, 2010)

Glad it turned out not to be CL. One never knows so at least you got it checked out.

I'm glad April has a place to go now and get away from the other girls. I'm sure it will work out.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 1, 2010)

I was just about to trim feet today and noticed Cissy had a HUGE lump just under her jaw line. Sure enough its losing its hair!! Sigh, looks like this is CL this time. The pus from the other lump was not characteristic of CL but this sounds like it sure as heck is. The vet is on her way to lance it and send it in for testing, also having blood drawn on Mione for testing. 


Can anything else go wrong? =/


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## lupinfarm (Aug 1, 2010)

Okay, it looks like we have found a home for Cissy and Mione. At this point my mum has decided to sell all of our goats and start fresh in the spring with registered and tested goats (spending the big money to find these btw) from a herd we know of. Sadly we are parting with April as well. She has just started fitting in and the new people for Cissy would like it if they could take Mione, well that leaves April alone and we're not going to find a friend for April this time of the season so I've offered them April as well. They're aware of Cissy possibly having CL and are still wanting to take her. 

I'm absolutely devestated, I've put so much time into them and so much into April that its heartbreaking to see them go but its for the best in the end. Being in a pen seperated from her friends is no life for Cissy and she'll be going to a home with children as a pet.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 1, 2010)

Well, that is a shame. It is too bad that all of them are going. I guess you will have a nice goat place ready when you get goats again. So sorry you are getting rid of them.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 1, 2010)

Can Penicillan (Depocillan..) be given Sub-Q? The vet didn't specify but mum said she jabbed Cissy in the bum... she has to be given it once a day for 6 days and I'm not comfortable with Intramuscular at all and I'm not sure the new owners would be either.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 1, 2010)

I always give Penicillin injections SQ. So yes, that is fine.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 1, 2010)

Awesome. I made up all the stuff expecting a semi-informed person and got an ex goat breeder/shower/producer :O! Its great news, he's dealt with CL before and has come up with his own creative ways of dealing with it. He's an old timer goat person! Crazy! They took April this evening and are putting up a quarantine pen tonight, will be back for Cissy and Mione tomorrow morning. Good to know about the Penicillin though


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## glenolam (Aug 2, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear that you are letting them go to another home.  It must be tough, but if you know they're going to good homes and that you will be better off as a family for doing so, then it's for good reason.

Keep us posted!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 2, 2010)

Really sorry to hear this..  We all know how much time you've put into these two.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 2, 2010)

I feel terrible about all of this, and to top it off the people who were supposed to come back for Cissy and Mione... well it looks like they're not coming back. I feel awful with Cissy outside at night alone in the dog run and I'm not sure what to do anymore. We absolutely cannot keep going this way, the cost is getting enormous. The vet bill from yesterday was $500! I need to find them a home but I'm seriously doubting anyone is going to want a goat with an infectious disease.... And I couldn't ever send them to auction, not only would our auctions not take them but i'd feel awful doing it too.


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## glenolam (Aug 2, 2010)

Keep trying and hopefully someone will have a home waiting!


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## lupinfarm (Aug 3, 2010)

Another Cissy update, looks like she has another cyst just above the first one, (the little round ball one that was drained about a month ago, not really like the big one we had drained this weekend, its a lot smaller once again). I don't know where or what these things are. CL or not, she is finding a new home with Mione. It may not be with the people that took April (though they called last night), we had another call from a woman who was interested in them, which is good  

On the other hand, I got Cissy's feet trimmed today... Those Hoof Rot Shears I picked up at TSC? Gods gift to goat owners! Holy moly, Cissy is now sportin' little goatie feet. I had to rest, she's quite a freighttrain and it was a struggle doing her backs. After I get my passport photos done I'm going to tackle Mione's feet and then we'll be done  

I checked Cissy's cyst this morning, it felt crusty and it is scabbing over SO she's back in with Mione today. Bluekoted it, shot of penicillin and we're good to go. I suspect Mione was more happy to see Cissy than Cissy was to see Mione haha. Mione was like OHH MY LOVE, MY ONE TRUE LOVE and Cissy just stared at her and smelled her butt =P


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## lupinfarm (Aug 3, 2010)

I have a purple and white pygmy cross =/ She's going to be spotted soon if these cysts don't stop popping up. Anyone have ideas on draining this new one, I can't afford to call the vet out for another $200 bill. She was scratching it today, but its small... just about the size of the first cyst and about an inch or two above it. I was thinking of leaving it for a few days (all supposing no one takes her) and then draining it myself =/ not looking forward to it but you gotta do what ya gotta do. Since nothing is draining right now she's in with Mione again until this one looks ready to go.


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## dkluzier (Aug 3, 2010)

One of my favorite goats had a large abscess on her neck, filled with pus. Took her to the vet who said that it was indeed a lymph node and he used a syringe to take a sample and it was pus.  a month later we took her back because it had only gotten bigger (size of my fist) and had him lance it out back of his office in the parking lot, drain it and pack it with iodine.  We gave her penicilling shots for a week.  She has *not* gotten another abscess since.  It cost us under $50 total.  He advised against sending it out for tests saying that it was most likely CL  and he didn't feel that should be a death sentence for a goat, so we didn't have it tested and I still have my lovely goat.

I will be separating her from the others should she show signs of infection in the future. She also had mastisis at the time in one udder and had a hard time giving birth so it may have been from an infection elsewhere in her body.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 3, 2010)

Unfortunately the problem is in the long run we cannot seperate her out and quarentine her. We had hopes for our little herd and the sheer cost of building, vet and other things is totally throwing them aside. Cissy can live out a happy life and have a great time but she can't live it out here. 

Unfortunately the big one is her second cyst, and now I've noticed her third.. these have all come up in the last 30 days! One after another. She wanted to do the test because of some strange results she's been getting and I'm fine with that, but we cannot deal with this at this time. I'm trying to do my best, but I'm having to use a very small dog run as isolation that is ordinarily used by well my dog. That is not a life for a goat, being hauled up in a dog run that is maybe 5x10ft.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 3, 2010)

I can understand perfectly that you can't keep a CL goat. Due to my alpaca birthing business and the fact that alpacas can also get CL, if a goat came up with a lump that was possibly CL, they would have to go immediately.  I can't even allow CAE on the farm because I do sometimes have to use my goat milk for alpaca crias. Plus, even though people can't get CAE, you never know if/when it might mutate and people could get it. No matter if it was my favorite goat, my best milker, whatever, no one can stay if they have any of the goat diseases. Too much risk to my other animals, my farm business and myself.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 3, 2010)

Yeah, thats how I feel. We have puppies once a year and the risk of something happening to them is pretty great. 


Cissy is coughing now, =/ , mum is talking about euthanasia at the moment with the vet on the telephone. Coughing is not a very good sign.

The vet is perplexed by it. She said she's hoping to get Prelim results in a few days and if she is CL positive she will do what we want (re: euthanasia). If she isn't CL positive, she may still be rehomed..


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## ksalvagno (Aug 3, 2010)

If it is CL, she could have internal abscesses too. Unfortunately, you wouldn't know that for sure unless you did a necropsy.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 3, 2010)

Yeah and a necropsy is probably not financially viable at this point.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 3, 2010)

Heres a good thing!  The good thing is, mostly for future reference, is that WADDL does take submissions from Canada! I emailed them and just got a response saying they do. Unfortunately at this stage it'll probably be just as long as the vets submissions are going to take what with getting VacuTubes in the mail, taking samples, shipping to WADDL (and this will need to hang out for inspection I expect at the border). Its nice to know in the future though that we have a lab that is a) way cheaper than our own vets and b) willing to take Canadian submissions!


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## Calliopia (Aug 4, 2010)

If you ship overnight generally customs takes less time. Not always though.  And even overnight postage is still usually cheaper than a vet call.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 4, 2010)

Yeah well the tests have already been sent off by the vet, she took a sample of the pus from Cissy's abscess when she lanced it Sunday morning. We'll know the results of that before I can get everything set up for WADDL. Remember, I have to order my Vacutainers because none of the stores carry them here and I'm not sure my vet would give me any since it is generally accepted here that the vet does that sorta stuff. We're ordering the vacutainers from BioTracking for future use (Biotracking doesn't take canadian submissions, its just they're the most convienient it seems for getting the tubes).


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2010)

At least you will have things in place for future use. It really is a shame that Cissy is having the abscess problems. I hope it comes back negative for CL and something else is going on but who knows.


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## Calliopia (Aug 5, 2010)

That was totally a "for future reference" thing not a criticism of what you are currently doing.      Best of luck with your new herd in Spring. 

I imagine other Canadian goat owners are relieved to hear they can mail in samples. I already forwarded it to a friend of mine up there that keeps goats.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 9, 2010)

Well the vet called. Cissy is positive for CL and its advancing like rapid fire here. She already has 2 more abscesses starting since the last one. Mione most likely has it now as well. The real kicker is that now we cannot take them to auction since Cissy always has an open sore, we can't sell them or GIVE them away.. no one wants them and the vet is trying to convince us to keep them for the rest of their lives. We cannot. This is absolutely ridiculous. The goal was to get into goats and breed and now we're being judged by our vet for wanting to euthanize two goats with an infectious disease that we could spread to OTHER farms in our area. 

She'll be back in a week from the goat breeders conference (thats a real kick in the teeth, isn't it..) and will probably try to convince us not to euthanize again. We may be looking for a new vet, and won't be getting goats again.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 9, 2010)

I really, really hate this..  Of all the goats in the world, I would least have suspected one of your two of being CL+, given how few goats are in the area to begin with..  And you had them for SO LONG before one popped up with a knot..

I just hate it for you..


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## lupinfarm (Aug 9, 2010)

I know. Its truly weird. And now they're coming up like crazy. Mione doesn't have any YET. But its very likely she will eventually. We may have to keep them, and just keep letting them burst/lancing them. Since its this bad on the surface with Cissy, its entirely possible she already had them on her organs.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 9, 2010)

Well.. Mum and I talked it over and we're going to tell the vet this, since she'll give us Case-bac. We're going to vaccinate both girls with Case-Bac. I've done some reading that says its been effective in already infected goats, its worth a shot right? Then in 4 or 5 months we'll reevaluate the situation. If Cissy is still getting the abscesses like crazy and Mione is too, they'll be euthanized. If not, then we'll carry on. They'll just have to be pets and we won't keep goats is all aside from them.


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## helmstead (Aug 9, 2010)




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## ksalvagno (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope the Case-Bac works for you.


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## Shiloh Acres (Aug 9, 2010)

Wow, I had missed the recent posts on this. I'm so sorry to hear you're having to deal with all this. I hope the case-bac works for you. 

Just so sorry.


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## Roll farms (Aug 9, 2010)

In my experience, vaccinating for CL in a positive goat will only make more lumps.

(The body senses the invading bacteria in the vaccine and since it already knows how to react / fight it (abscess) it does just that...with more abscesses.)

I've stopped vaccinating our "known positive" does and only do the new additions and keepers born here.

I've never had any luck w/ the vaccine 'curing' an infected goat.  That's in 2 years of using a vaccine made from our goats and 4 years of using the one from Colorado Serum.

It does seem that after the initial 'outbreak' things slow down.  I have some who only get 1 or 2 lumps a year.

I hoped for the best for you, but I will say I thought all along that it was CL...the location and look of it were classic, IMHO.
But I didn't want to be the lone chicken little telling you your sky was falling.



> The goal was to get into goats and breed and now we're being judged by our vet for wanting to euthanize two goats with an infectious disease that we could spread to OTHER farms in our area.


You might rethink that comment, as I have never spread CL to another farm / breeder...and we even do outside breeding for folks (who know in advance about the CL and make the decision based on references, our honesty, and their own comfort level.) and sell 50 or so kids a year...NOT ONE of which has tested positive.

I've said before and will say again...it CAN be managed, and it IS a pain.
The dams can't be allowed to raise their kids (even the clean ones, because the kids might get into a pen w/ a lumpy doe...and then I couldn't sell the kids in good conscience.)  I can't always breed a doe when I want to if she's got a lump, since our boys are clean and I won't risk exposure, even though they are vaccinated.

Your goats, your call....the vet shouldn't judge you.


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## Hykue (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry, that must be so frustrating and disheartening.  I hope they do recover somewhat.  From all your previous posts it's obvious how much you care about them, so this must be incredibly hard for you.  I'm sorry.


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## lilhill (Aug 10, 2010)

So sorry you are going through this.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 10, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Your goats, your call....the vet shouldn't judge you.


Yes, this is your personal decision to make and it's terribly unfortunate you are in a position to do so.  But if you weigh all the odds and decide to euthanize your vet should support you.  So sorry about your experience, you obviously care about these girls!


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## glenolam (Aug 10, 2010)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> She'll be back in a week from the goat breeders conference (thats a real kick in the teeth, isn't it..) and will probably try to convince us not to euthanize again. We may be looking for a new vet, and won't be getting goats again.


#1 - if she's going to a GOAT breeding conference, why don't you ask HER to take Cissy and Mione?  Since she's sooooo concerned with your decision, maybe she can (NO OFFENSE TO YOU WITH THIS COMMENT!!!) handle it?!?  Hopefully she'll talk to the breeders there and get different opinions on what "they" would all do.  It seems to me that any breeder will do what they think is best for him/her and their goats, and what you think is best is to euthanize.  Others think differently, and that's OK.  But to preach something you wouldn't do yourself, to me, is wrong.

#2 - I don't think you should give up on having goats just because of this incident.  You've worked long and hard to get to this point.  Plenty of people have goats with no problems what so ever, and plenty have goats with every known problem to man.  You, my friend, are on the short end of the stick right now.

We're here for you.  I feel for you and hope that you and your family come out of this well.


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