# Buck destruction.



## SDBoerGoats (Apr 6, 2012)

We have a 2 1/2 year old Boer Buck. He is docile and gentle most of the time. When he was in rut he was angry and trying to smash everything, and he would charge the yearling buck and run him all over the place. After he went out of rut, he was back to his nice normal self. This was in January.

All the does were bred in August so no does were coming into heat when he was acting like that. We moved him to the front of the property with the yearling. The does are at the back of the property. He can't even see them. 

Now he has started ramming his head into the wooden building, and ramming the side of the feed manger til he totally smashed the side in. Yesterday he rammed into Sundance and smashed him in the side of the wall. This is not the first time that he has used Sundance for a punching bag, and I am told that it's not a problem, that bucks live together all the time. He runs Sundance away from the feed mangers. We set up separate mangers outside far away from each other so Sundance can eat. Sundance was bred to 2 does last year and he does not behave this way. He also doesn't have horns either, and Remington does, and I am afraid he will crack Sundance's ribs, in addition to all the damage he is doing. 

I personally do not feel that Sundance should have to be subjected to Remington's abuse just because they are goats, if it was 2 stallions, or 2 male dogs, if one was dominant and a bully, I would separate them. Am I being over protective or am I right? 

Why would he be behaving this way out of the blue? Do you think the does are coming in heat and he can smell them all the way to the front of the property? I have 6 acres, there's like 2 acres separating them. yesterday I got so tired of listening to him crash into the wall that I hid behind it, and when he came up to ram it, I zapped him on top of the head with a cattle prod, he did NOT like that! But he took off. I don't like using a cattle prod on a goat, but he's about to totally destroy the building.


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## TTs Chicks (Apr 6, 2012)

I have not had to deal with that so I don't have any advice.  Knowing how I am though I probably would not keep one if it acted like that, it would be too dangerous for me, my family and the rest of my critters.  



			
				SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

> yesterday I got so tired of listening to him crash into the wall that I hid behind it, and when he came up to ram it, I zapped him on top of the head with a cattle prod, he did NOT like that!


This so sounds like something I would do     I have a mental picture of him trying to figure out what happened.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 6, 2012)

There are enough males out there that I wouldn't put up with a destructive goat. After a while it turns into learned behavior. Maybe he is in rut and maybe he is bored. But I wouldn't want to risk injury to my other goats.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 6, 2012)

I have a buck by himself, because he is too hard on any of the other animals.  I tried keeping a couple other bucks with him, but he was running them around constantly and they were loosing weight. 

And  a good guess as to why, would be one of those girls caught his attention. And he is frustrated. Hard to blame them, that is what we have them for.


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## KinderKorner (Apr 6, 2012)

I agree with above poster.

I keep 6 - 8 bucks together at all times, of all sizes. 

I never have a problem with them hurting each other. 

I put young bucklings in with them with no problems. 

Yes they shove sometimes at feeding time, or they may pick on each other a little bit when they are feeling good. 

But they are way nicer to each other than my does are. They don't mind sharing the hay feeder, and I don't see them constantly picking on the smaller or younger ones.

My does beat eachother up all the time, and will take every opportunty to ram smaller ones into walls and fences with as much strength as they can. The boys just play around and never actually hurt each other, or try to inflict damage.

I would not keep a mean or destructive buck here either.


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## redtailgal (Apr 6, 2012)

I just wont breed an animal that has a bad attitude.  Like Ksalvagno said, there are too  many good and even tempered animals out there to put up with this behavior.

Not to mention, attitude, aggressiveness and the like can be passed on to the offspring.

Around here, a critter like that gets a one way ticket to the meat grinder.


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## SarahFair (Apr 6, 2012)

I had a buck that lived with does and (goat) kids year round. My (human) kids played around him constantly. Never had one problem with him.
He was gentle around the really young kids.. and boy they would aggravate the snot out of him at times. 
He never tore anything up.. but I did learn not to feed him through the fence because if anything got caught on it he would want to rub his scent all over it and eventually would mess the fencing up.


There are too many good ones to put up with the "bad" ones


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 6, 2012)

Well, he wouldn't come in rut so soon again would he? I thought that was a fall/winter thing. So....you all seem to feel that it is HIS attitude and not just because a doe may be in heat. Because I kind of feel that way too. Sundance doesn't have an ornery bone in his body. He never rams things, never goes after anyone else. My Son in law bought Remington and he was in a field of 5 other bucks, and when they looked at him, he was gentle and docile. When he got here and there were does in heat, he changed gears. He goes back to his gentle self, but then he'll get on the rampage again and ram the crap out of Sundance and crash into the building. I think HE has a problem, instead of just making the excuse that he's a buck.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 6, 2012)

TTs Chicks said:
			
		

> I have not had to deal with that so I don't have any advice.  Knowing how I am though I probably would not keep one if it acted like that, it would be too dangerous for me, my family and the rest of my critters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got lucky, usually he sees me coming, but he was ramming with his head down and didn't even know I snuck up. I just waited til he hit it again and reached over and zapped him. He leaped way up in the air and almost fell down he was so shocked. He did have a complete WTH look on his face and he was ticked. But he just kind of stalked off. I just had enough of the constant ram, ram, ram. I could hear him clear in the house and it just pissed me off. He didn't touch it again all day.


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## redtailgal (Apr 6, 2012)

I understand the concept of "rut".....I have to....I have a 3 1/2 foot iguana.  Lizard males get a hormonal SURGE during specific times of the year, coming into heat much like a female does.  He gets moody.....but even then I dont tolerate certain behavior.


Our bull will get more "bullish" when the cows are in heat.  We keep this in mind.  He can holler.  He can pace.  He can whine (boy can he whine).  But, if he ever makes us scared........meat grinder.  The first time. Period, no questions asked.  If he ever gets snotty with the other animals, yup, you guessed it.  A little A1 sauce fixes the problem.  

We had a bull once who decided it was cool to tear up the trees when the heifer came into heat.  He moved onto the barn when beating up the trees didnt satisfy him.  We wondered what would be next after the barn didnt take care of his frustrations, and he became dog food.  Oddly enough, ALL the heifers that we kept out of this bull ended up as culls because of their sorry attitude.  One of his daughters actually KILLED another cow by ramming her repeatedly.  She died where she stood right there in the pasture.

It will be the same with my goats.  I can understand sexual frustration, I can tolerate noise and pacing, but I will not make excuses for an aggressive animal, under any circumstances.

I guess I sound heartless, I dont mean it that way.  BUT the herds here..........are easy going and low stress animals.  I dont hesitate to walk in and among the herd, with the cows, heifers, calves, AND the bull.  

Do what you think is right, its your farm and your animals, so only you know the right answer.  Just be cautious that you dont end up breeding him and ending up with a bunch of snotty females.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 6, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I understand the concept of "rut".....I have to....I have a 3 1/2 foot iguana.  Lizard males get a hormonal SURGE during specific times of the year, coming into heat much like a female does.  He gets moody.....but even then I dont tolerate certain behavior.
> 
> 
> Our bull will get more "bullish" when the cows are in heat.  We keep this in mind.  He can holler.  He can pace.  He can whine (boy can he whine).  But, if he ever makes us scared........meat grinder.  The first time. Period, no questions asked.  If he ever gets snotty with the other animals, yup, you guessed it.  A little A1 sauce fixes the problem.
> ...


Well, I pretty much feel the same way. We raised cutting horses for years, had several stallions in training, but we only owned one.  I tend to see bad minded stallions produce bad minded colts. The thing is, the bad minded studs didn't make a whole lot better minded geldings. But being a stallion made them worse. Our stud of course knew when mares were in heat, but he never acted up in the show ring, or at home, when he was being ridden or tied in the arena. He was pretty quiet in his pen too, and I can never ever recall being the least bit nervous when it came time to get him to ride, or to breed. And he was what was considered a "hot" bred cutting horse. So I totally get what you are saying, and I am in total agreement. 

I am not comfortable with him ramming Sundance in the ribs, he can injure him, and I sure as heck don't like the destruction.  I thought goats only came into rut once a year. I am planning on moving Sundance out tomorrow.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 7, 2012)

Bucks coming into rut depends on the breed. Since Nigerian Dwarfs are year round breeders, the boys can be in rut at any time. The seasonal breeders should only be in rut during the fall. I really suspect he is bored or something. Or maybe he just doesn't like the other buck. Either way, this behavior is probably now learned behavior and he will continue it. It is good that you are moving your other buck out. I would worry about him being killed.


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## quiltnchik (Apr 7, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I understand the concept of "rut".....I have to....I have a 3 1/2 foot iguana.  Lizard males get a hormonal SURGE during specific times of the year, coming into heat much like a female does.  He gets moody.....but even then I dont tolerate certain behavior.
> 
> 
> Our bull will get more "bullish" when the cows are in heat.  We keep this in mind.  He can holler.  He can pace.  He can whine (boy can he whine).  But, if he ever makes us scared........meat grinder.  The first time. Period, no questions asked.  If he ever gets snotty with the other animals, yup, you guessed it.  A little A1 sauce fixes the problem.
> ...


I'm with Redtailgal here - that buck would be in the freezer, quick and in a hurry.  If not my own, then someone else's who likes the taste of buck in rut (and there are cultures who do).  I just can not and will not tolerate a mean animal.


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## mydakota (Apr 7, 2012)

Well, I am a newbie buck owner, so I have no experience, but I can tell  you that I have had several stallions and I would not put up with the equine equivalent of this behavior for a single moment.  One of the main reasons I have my animals--even my farm animals--is because I enjoy them.  He doesn't sound enjoyable.  He also sounds irritating and potentially dangerous.  I think I would keep the mellow guy, and replace the other one with another mellow guy.  My buck is only a yearling, but so far he has been a funny, affectionate, people-loving guy.  I like him.  I am not scared of him.  He better stay that way.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 7, 2012)

mydakota said:
			
		

> Well, I am a newbie buck owner, so I have no experience, but I can tell  you that I have had several stallions and I would not put up with the equine equivalent of this behavior for a single moment.  One of the main reasons I have my animals--even my farm animals--is because I enjoy them.  He doesn't sound enjoyable.  He also sounds irritating and potentially dangerous.  I think I would keep the mellow guy, and replace the other one with another mellow guy.  My buck is only a yearling, but so far he has been a funny, affectionate, people-loving guy.  I like him.  I am not scared of him.  He better stay that way.


Sundance so far is a doll. He is just over a year, but he bred does last fall and his disposition is the same. I was just curious if this was considered normal for a buck, my SIL feels it's macho for a buck to be this way, I don't. I wouldn't tolerate it in a stud horse and I sure don't want to put up with it in a buck. Since he is the first buck we have ever owned, I didn't really know if this was supposed to be accepted, I SEE the difference between him and Sundance, and believe me, Sundance is my pick. Sadly today, for no reason, my yearling doe that was bred to Sundance, just fell over and died while eating at the manger. She was due the end of this month.


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## mydakota (Apr 8, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear about your doe!  What a terrible thing to have happen.


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## Roll farms (Apr 8, 2012)

Get rid of the buck.

We had a big, gorgeous solid black FB buck who made really nice kids.  He tore down a new welded gate in the barn, dented up the metal in the same barn (when it was new), would beat up on / chase the other bucks from feed, but the worst thing - at breeding time, he decided for whatever reason that he hated Raven, a yearling black boer doe.  He hit her in the shoulder area and broke her neck.   We had to put her down after several days of hoping she'd improve.

We suspect she wasn't yet in heat and he was 'punishing' her for not allowing him to breed.

He'd already been 'sold' at that point, and was to be picked up when we were done w/ him.  Needless to say, I WAS DONE when sweet Raven died.  

The folks who bought him have lost 3 goats to Train.

Get rid of him before something 'worse' happens.

And I'm sorry you lost your doe.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 8, 2012)

Thank you all for your input. It's so good to hear from others who know goats that I am not just a whiner, that this buck really has some hostility issues. He's not happy right now alone in his pen, but I am no longer worried that Sundance will suffer some kind of internal injury and die from being rammed into the side of the barn!


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## Queen Mum (Apr 8, 2012)

I don't think that getting rid of a buck or killing him is always the answer.  Nor do I think those "aggressive bucks" are really "dangerous" or "aggressive" that need to be meat.  You can convince yourself he is dangerous.  Yes, you can cull him, or sell him or eat him.  He sounds like an out of control adolescent in need of some training to me.  

I liken them to Rhodesian Ridgeback dogs. People buy them because they are beautiful dogs and wonderful cute pups.  But then they become abused, often abandoned, because when they are adolescents they turn into destructive barking maniacs.  These poor animals are called dangerous and aggressive and stupid and nasty and all manner of things.  They are none of these things.  What they really are is ill mannered, and untrained.  

Many bucks go through stages at a young age.  Ramming and destruction CAN be a stage for a young buck.  AS can be head butting and other aggressive behaviors.  

In nature all that ramming has a purpose and the other older bucks in the buck herds control it.  They grow out of it and learn to manage it or they don't survive.  Unfortunately we humans have interfered with the natural order of herd training when we separate bucks and does from a herd and keep them in pens and out of the fields and off of mountains.  So we don't leave them to learn from each other.  THUS we have the option to replace natural herd training ourselves.  Younger ones can be trained and can change those behaviors.  AND the training is often very successful.  If the training doesn't work, THAT is when they need to be culled.  

I have to say, I have gotten some pretty nice animals from people selling "bad nusances" they weren't willing to train.


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## Roll farms (Apr 8, 2012)

Not everyone has time to "train" / deal with a destructive buck.  People who work full time can't 'hope' he doesn't misbehave and kill something while they're away and not there to 'correct' them.  It's not 'wrong' to get rid of a problem animal if you haven't got the time to deal w/ them, or if you're worried about your other animals.  At 2.5 yrs old, he's not a 'young' buck anymore, he's got bad habits, possibly a bad attitude, and has proven he's destructive.

You can call it whatever you like, and excuse it however you wish...but I won't bother w/ a mean buck.
Especially when there are truly many, many more out there who'll never give you an ounce of trouble.

And, I disagree, some animals are born 'bad' and no amount of 'work' will fix it.  I feel the same way about humans.  It's sad, but true.  Not everyone is a 'fixer upper'.
I agree that many dogs / breeds are misunderstood and rehomed / abandoned for that reason....but that's comparing apples to oranges and distracting.

Life's too short to spend it worrying about my other animals or people who might get hurt.
We've had 2 mean bucks.  The one I spoke of before, and a Kiko buck who went after my daughter with blood in his eyes and his head down, at a full run.  

HE WOULD HAVE HURT HER.  

I didn't have to convince myself of that fact, I saw it w/ my own eyes and had to nearly break my arms dragging him away from her.  It took 4 men to load that buck the next day.

I didn't have to train the other bucks I've owned and currently own, in over 13 yrs of experience w/ bucks.


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## Queen Mum (Apr 8, 2012)

I don't recall saying that everyone did have time to train an animal.  Nor do I recall saying that it's wrong to get rid of a problem.  Nor am I judging someone who doesn't have time to train one who is a problem.  My experience has been that MOST of the extreme examples that people use to illustrate such problem animals are the exception not the rule.  

I am saying that getting rid of a problem is NOT the ONLY solution.  AND I am saying that NOT all problem goats are the results of bad genetics and bad breeding nor are they an animal that you HAVE to get rid of.  AND in fact many problem animals are not dangerous at all.  Many of them are just ill mannered adolescents going through a stage and most of them just need time, patience and training.  

In other words, it is not black and white as some of the posts seem to suggest. If you have the time and the patience you CAN train the animal in most instances. If you want to keep the animal, you can in most instances, resolve the problem.


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## elevan (Apr 8, 2012)

A fully grown, standard size male goat has the ability to cause great harm or even kill a human...that should always be foremost in the mind of any goat owner.

Every farm must do their due diligence and research options and make decisions that are best for their own farm.  You have a choice to make...rehome the goat with full disclosure, send the goat to the freezer or find a way to make it work.

If he were here he would go to the freezer.


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## redtailgal (Apr 8, 2012)

I can see training an animal and letting it go thru phases IF it is wethered and is going to be a pet.  MAYBE........but I seriously doubt I would try it. Its a HUGE liability

But I would NEVER agree to breed an animal that EVER showed unwarranted aggression. 

I'm pretty new to goats, but I've been around livestock my whole life.  Aggressive livestock should be culled, in my opinion.  In a breeding program, its just not plausible to train over aggression out of something.......you'll end up having to train it out of the offspring as well.

It's not a fun thing to have to consider, I know.  We've had to cull out aggressive cattle, and I've had to help cull out ranch horses that were not fit for their job (horses were sold, not killed and they were all gelded).  It's easy to want to do the kind thing to that particular animal, make excuses and try to work it out, but, I've seen that back fire so many times and have seen people seriously hurt (a couple actually KILLED by an animal they "trained" the aggression out of), so it's pretty black and white in my mind.  Aggression is not a qualified breeding characteristic and thus must be culled from the herd.

One of my *wethers* got a little snotty, and I fixed it, I hope.  He was dancing on a line, and if he had or does cross it, I'll put a bullet in his head that very day.  If he would have still had his nuggets, and been part of my future breeding program, he'd be in the freezer right now.

Every one is different, and we each have to do what is best for our farm.  But, we do need to make educated decisions.  And if we ever decided to keep an animal that was/is aggressive, it needs to be permanent (with containment strong enough to prevent the animal from ever getting out or a stray neighborhood child from getting......no matter how well trained the animal is) or at least sold with full disclosure.


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## Goatherd (Apr 9, 2012)

> I don't recall saying that everyone did have time to train an animal.  Nor do I recall saying that it's wrong to get rid of a problem.  Nor am I judging someone who doesn't have time to train one who is a problem.  My experience has been that MOST of the extreme examples that people use to illustrate such problem animals are the exception not the rule.
> 
> I am saying that getting rid of a problem is NOT the ONLY solution.  AND I am saying that NOT all problem goats are the results of bad genetics and bad breeding nor are they an animal that you HAVE to get rid of.  AND in fact many problem animals are not dangerous at all.  Many of them are just ill mannered adolescents going through a stage and most of them just need time, patience and training.
> 
> In other words, it is not black and white as some of the posts seem to suggest. If you have the time and the patience you CAN train the animal in most instances. If you want to keep the animal, you can in most instances, resolve the problem.


I couldn't agree with you more.


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## Queen Mum (Apr 9, 2012)

I am NOT new to goats and SOME bucks go through a headbutting stage.  They DO grow out of it.  It is NOT genetic and it does NOT stay with them their whole lives.  It CAN be destructive.  They CAN be trained. 

I have an example of it in my backyard.  *HIS NAME IS HOUDINI! * He is a calm, well mannered easygoing buck.  He went through that stage.  AND he does NOT do it now. I did NO training with him at all.  All he needed was a buck bigger than him to put him in his place.  BJ did it.  He will probably never do it again. IN FACT, he is the least aggressive of ALL the bucks in the buck pen.   The farm I lived on in Texas had 8 examples of the same thing.  EACH one of them went through the same stage.  Each one of them grew out of it.  

They had ONE goat who did not grow out of it.  He had to be trained out of it.  The training was quite effective.


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## quiltnchik (Apr 9, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> I am NOT new to goats and SOME bucks go through a headbutting stage.  They DO grow out of it.  It is NOT genetic and it does NOT stay with them their whole lives.  It CAN be destructive.  They CAN be trained.
> 
> I have an example of it in my backyard.  *HIS NAME IS HOUDINI! * He is a calm, well mannered easygoing buck.  He went through that stage.  AND he does NOT do it now. I did NO training with him at all.  All he needed was a buck bigger than him to put him in his place.  BJ did it.  He will probably never do it again. IN FACT, he is the least aggressive of ALL the bucks in the buck pen.   The farm I lived on in Texas had 8 examples of the same thing.  EACH one of them went through the same stage.  Each one of them grew out of it.
> 
> They had ONE goat who did not grow out of it.  He had to be trained out of it.  The training was quite effective.


I, for one, do not have a buck for this very reason.  However, if I did have a buck and if he was aggressive/destructive, he would be in the freezer.  I had a wether that was "butt happy" and he has since been rehomed; it was either that or freezer camp.  I have absolutely NO tolerance for a mean animal, period!  Each to his own, but it's a tremendous liability to keep a mean animal and there is the very real possibility of being sued (or worse) if your animal were to hurt someone and/or destroy someone else's property.


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## Godsgrl (Apr 9, 2012)

Personally, I would have Remington wethered first, then see if his behavior improves, if you were interested in keeping him. Then if it doesn't, or you don't want a wether around, then cull him. My friends had a bottle baby buck, and they didn't know not to play with his head. So they constantly pushed on his head and played with his horns.  Then they got a doe. The buck was constantly after that poor doe. When she kidded, they separated the doe and buck, and the buck went crazy. He brutally attacked me when I went down to care for them. He ripped my jeans from hip to ankle, and bruised me almost to bleeding along my whole leg.

 The owners first thought it was really funny, until it started happening to them. Then they sold him. I still wonder what attitude the buck would have had if he'd been wethered instead of sold. This experience has totally turned me against goats, which is a sad thing. When I read here about people owning gentle bucks, and that they can be around him, I realize how bad this buck was. Life is too short for this kind of stress. Best of luck with your decision.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 9, 2012)

Remington IS well bred, the farm he came from raises show goats and are well known for their good bloodlines in these parts,  and he has Ennobled bucks in his pedigree. The previous owners also showed him when he was a young buckling. And this attitude comes and goes. Since I shocked him, he hasn't smashed the walls or the feeders. But he has been totally sweet and mellow causing no trouble before, then one morning you will see him trying to crash a gate. 

I don't mind "training him" as long as I know what to do when he is behaving this way and there is light at the end of the tunnel. Because when he's good, he's very very good. But when he's bad, he's horrid. LOL!If zapping him once in a while clears up his mind, I can do that, as long as I can get to him and he doesn't see me, because doing it after the barn smashing is over is pointless.  Any other suggestions will be welcomed as far as training.


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