# Young goat straining, found a worm



## Brandi Krisatis (Aug 22, 2018)

I have a 4 and half month old fainting goat. The last few days he's seemed off. Kind of mopey. Last night when I put him in his pen, his belly was really hard. This morning its wasn't as bad. When I got home from work, my mom said he seemed like he wasn't feeling good still. He's been straining and pushing, he does have some pellets come out. He did this 3 different times withing the 15 minutes I was watching him. He blats when he's doing this. I put him in his pen, I cleaned out his water/food dish. I started to fill up his water dish, he was drinking it, then I noticed something white in it. It's some type of worm. I don't know if it came out of his mouth or if it was on the hose that was laying on the ground. It is only a 1/2 inch to maybe 3/4 inch. Just before watering him, I cleaning out his little house. I have wood shaving in there. Not sure if the work came from that and somehow got in the water or on him. 

I let Oscar free roam when I'm home. He shares a yard with a bunch of ducks and geese. Our dogs run in the same area. We live in the woods in West Michigan. I feed him Dumor goat feed from Tractor supply.  Same food previous owners used. I give him fresh food in the morning and at night along with fresh water at those times. I use to give him hay, but he doesn't seem interested in it. He does eat grass and weeds when he's out of his pen. He is eating still.

He had a vet appt 3 weeks ago. He got his first vaccine. They did a fecal test and it came back clean. I've had him for about a month and a half.

I feel so bad for him. It sounds like he's crying. Any suggestions? Should I take him in? Is this something I can fix at home? Should I still feed him tonight? I've posted videos of him straining, the worm and a picture of his food.


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## Latestarter (Aug 22, 2018)

Not sure what the straining and crying is all about. As for the worm, that's a rather large worm and since you said he was clean 3 weeks ago, I don't think there's been enough time for a worm to mature to that size...   Can't really tell what kind of worm that is... Doesn't look like a typical round worm or tape worm... Hope some of the much more experienced goat folks will chime in with thoughts.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 22, 2018)

Is he peeing? Dehydration can cause issues both with excreting pellets (fecal)  as well as not peeing.
He must have hay!  Grass and forage is good but he must have hay. Goats need the long fiber! Being penned with no hay and only feed isn't healthy.
How much feed do you feed him?
The protein isn't listed. Does the feed have ammonium chloride? This helps to prevent stones (urinary calculi) in bucks.
Get another fecal. Life cycle stages can be in between so to speak.


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## Brandi Krisatis (Aug 22, 2018)

I haven't seen him pee lately but I'm not watching him all the time either. His bedding was damp in some spots, but I'm not sure if that's from the ducks getting into his leftover food and water when the door is open. I will start putting hay in with him again. The feed does say with ammonium chloride on the front of the actual bag I have. I give him about a cup or so in the morning and again at night. I don't measure it. But he never eats it all. 
I will call the vet in the morning and schedule another fecal. His booster vaccine is due also, so I need to get him in anyways.


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## greybeard (Aug 22, 2018)

The video is hard for me to get focused and enlarged and it's been a long long time since I've seen one, but that looks somewhat like a screwworm of some kind.
More likely tho, a blow fly larvae. l. sericata.
Sometimes called green bottle fly larvae.
They can get up to 1/2"-5/8" long.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 22, 2018)

If a goat cannot pee or has stones they will often have a difficult time pooping, as it is all painful. Are the "berries" (poop pellets) hard & dry or moist?
You have to be very careful with wethers and bucks. And yes, young kids at 4 months can have stones. They must have a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio or better up to 4 to 1

Here is an article on UC. That is why I asked about him peeing. It doesn't sound like he is overeating but IMO he probably only needs 1 cup a day and just give good hay.
http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf

Baking soda can be used if suspected bloat but don't leave it in with him. It renders the AC (Ammonium Chloride) useless.

Water full time. You may want to put some ACV in it. (Apple cider vinegar)   I will say if the ducks and geese are in with him this may be an issue with him drinking.
WE also have geese and duck.... they FOUL the water. The oils and dirt and feathers dust etc go in the water and goats really hate nasty water. Our goats will not drink out of the buckets the geese have used. We have to watch all the buckets all day as the geese also like to clean their face in fresh water.  So they soil the water buckets constantly.

Make sure he isn't getting into chicken/geese feed etc. They can bloat. 

There is no scale for the "worm" thinking maggot like larvae or something. Not tapes not roundworm but again no real scale.


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## Brandi Krisatis (Aug 22, 2018)

greybeard said:


> The video is hard for me to get focused and enlarged and it's been a long long time since I've seen one, but that looks somewhat like a screwworm of some kind.
> More likely tho, a blow fly larvae. l. sericata.
> Sometimes called green bottle fly larvae.
> They can get up to 1/2"-5/8" long.
> View attachment 51531



It does look like that, just skinnier. It may have been in his bedding. I will have to make sure to change it out more often. Thank you.


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## Brandi Krisatis (Aug 22, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> If a goat cannot pee or has stones they will often have a difficult time pooping, as it is all painful. Are the "berries" (poop pellets) hard & dry or moist?
> You have to be very careful with wethers and bucks. And yes, young kids at 4 months can have stones. They must have a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio or better up to 4 to 1
> 
> Here is an article on UC. That is why I asked about him peeing. It doesn't sound like he is overeating but IMO he probably only needs 1 cup a day and just give good hay.
> ...



Thank you for the information. His "berries" looked moist. They look like they always have. 

I don't keep the ducks/geese in the same pen as him. They are all free range. They just go in his pen when the gate is open when he is grazing. They see his left over food and think the are starving! They are always taken out before the goat is locked up. His food and water dish are always cleaned out then too and replenished. Those ducks and geese are very messy! They have a 2 acre pond but have to dirty any water pail I have out!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 22, 2018)

ok good- how is he doing?


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## greybeard (Aug 22, 2018)

Brandi Krisatis said:


> It does look like that, just skinnier. It may have been in his bedding. I will have to make sure to change it out more often. Thank you.


Understand, that if it is botfly or some other kind of parasitic larvae, it originated from somewhere other than bedding. They have to have somewhere moist to live if they are to survive for very long.
The size and shape will depend which larval stage they are in at the time you find them, referred to as 1st, 2nd, or 3rd etc 'instar'.
They can be long and skinny or short and fat, depending on which instar/larval molt ..and of course, which species.

If you find another one, and are fairly sure it came from your animal, carefully put it in a small clear bottle and take it to a reputable vet or medical authority for identification. be careful, as humans can be infected by many of the same parasites that their animals are infected with.

I have been to parts of the world where botfly and screwworm infestations were relatively common in humans. It is not a pretty sight.


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## Brandi Krisatis (Aug 23, 2018)

I decided to call the on call vet tonight since there hasn't been any changes. I did notice when hes standing he dribbles urine. He had me feel his urine by the penis to see if it was grainy. It was. He said there is most likely a blockage in the urinary tract. He said to call the office first thing in the morning to get him checked out. The on call vet said they can try to do a catheter, which it doesn't always work because of the way the urinary tract is, it's a S curve. If the catheter doesn't work, I could have him taken to Michigan State to have surgery to basically have him urinate like a female. The last option in uthinization. I am so sad right now. I hope they can fix him tomorrow. 

Is this as bad as it sounds? I'll m glad the vet didn't beat around the bush about the possible outcomes. But I don't want to loose this little guy and I don't have money for a major surgery.


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## greybeard (Aug 23, 2018)

Brandi Krisatis said:


> Is this as bad as it sounds? I'll m glad the vet didn't beat around the bush about the possible outcomes. But I don't want to loose this little guy and I don't have money for a major surgery.



it 'can' be pretty bad, but too, there is always a risk in any mammal with a urinary blockage, of bladder rupture if the problem isn't addressed. 

If you wish to read further about the problem, possible procedures, and associated risks, you can open the following link:
http://www.aasrp.org/resources/VanMetre_urolith_surgery_04.pdf


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## Southern by choice (Aug 23, 2018)

Brandi Krisatis said:


> I decided to call the on call vet tonight since there hasn't been any changes. I did notice when hes standing he dribbles urine. He had me feel his urine by the penis to see if it was grainy. It was. He said there is most likely a blockage in the urinary tract. He said to call the office first thing in the morning to get him checked out. The on call vet said they can try to do a catheter, which it doesn't always work because of the way the urinary tract is, it's a S curve. If the catheter doesn't work, I could have him taken to Michigan State to have surgery to basically have him urinate like a female. The last option in uthinization. I am so sad right now. I hope they can fix him tomorrow.
> 
> Is this as bad as it sounds? I'll m glad the vet didn't beat around the bush about the possible outcomes. But I don't want to loose this little guy and I don't have money for a major surgery.



This is urinary Calculi- not sure if you read the link already that I mentioned. Often they snip the pizzle.  http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf


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## Brandi Krisatis (Aug 25, 2018)

I did read up on it. Thank you. He did have have blockage. The vet could not get the catheter in nearly as far as she wanted so she couldn't flush the urethra. She did empty the bladder using a syringe and needle. When she did an ultra sound it showed he had about a 1/4 inch of sediment around the bladder wall.
Shes giving us ammonium chloride to mix with jello that will break up that sediment hopefully and he will pee it out. But if he still has a blockage none of that will help. We could take him to MSU for surgery. 

As of today, I have not seen him urinate. But his bedding was damp from the night. He currently has no bedding for about 5 hours and he has not urinated yet. He was straining but nothing is coming out. 
I think we will be making the hour and a half trip to Michigan State for the surgery. It's called a cystostomy.
The vet said it was probably caused from his diet. So no grain ever again for him. Has anyone had this surgery done with luck?


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 28, 2018)

Tell vet you cannot pass a catheter on a male goat!!!!!!!
There are two very sharp curves in urethra that make S shaped process..

Feeding grain in and of itself did not cause blockage.  I have had bucks and wethers eating  grain well into teens without blockages.  If overall calcium to phosphorus ratio gets out of whack or animal quits drinking enough water you get blockages.   The loose mineral mix is what balances ration 2:1.  Lots of things can impact water consumption: sore teeth, .water .dirty, bad tasteing,  too warm, too cold.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 28, 2018)

I agree with @Donna R. Raybon   and as the article points out it has to do with the calcium phosphorus ratio. 
We tend to have 10-15 bucks here at all times and one wether. All our bucks get feed, always have, always will. BUT their feed does have ammonium chloride. NO baking soda! Fresh water at all times. A cobalt block (which our bucks rarely use) mostly for the salt.  
We make sure their diet is a minimum of 2:1 up to a range of about 4:1. We give alfalfa mixed with orchard hay. We can't always get that mix so then we just give orchard or field hay.
Please don't feed BOSS (Black Oil Sunflower Seeds) it screams with extremely high levels of phosphorus.


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