# Dogs Chasing Lambs - Should We Worry?



## Laura_P (May 9, 2013)

The other day, my husband mentioned that one of our two Pyrenees was chasing one of our lambs around the field. I asked if they were playing and he said "yes". Today, I observed both Pyrenees chasing some lambs and I'm not so sure the lambs were having a good time. I don't think the dogs were trying to bite the lambs at all, but at one point, one dog was over the lamb (lamb was between his front legs) and it was like the dog was "dribbling" the lamb like a soccer ball.

They are good dogs and seem protective of the lambs and sheep. Should we be worried about a guardian dog chasing our lambs?

Thank you,
Laura


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## Four Winds Ranch (May 9, 2013)

I would be worried!!!  
I had one that harmlessly (or so I thought) played a bit with the lambs, which turned into chasing, turned into tackling them! Before I knew it, he was casing the adult sheep and bringing them down!!!    He never killed any but there was definatly blood involved!  Mostly ripped up ears and legs!!! 
I would suggest trying to put astop on ever playing sheep for your LGD!!    The sheep end up more afraid of their, supposed protector, than they are of predators!!


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## woodsie (May 9, 2013)

I do not think it is okay for an LGD to play with the animals...they can play with each other but not the animals they are supposed to be protecting. I have lost a few chickens that were slobbered and played to death and I am praying that they will leave the lambs and kids that are due any day now alone. I will be keeping a close eye on them and correcting any "play" behaviour with zero tolerance. I would assume that any play from a prey-type animal is going to be very stressful on baby and mom and could cause weakness/sickness and even death, even if it is unintentional.


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## Southern by choice (May 9, 2013)

It is never acceptable behavior for a LGD. "Just playing" is a behavior that needs to be corrected immediately. As _4 winds_ has already stated, the "just playing" is the pre-cursor to a very serious behavior issue. Woodsie's assessment is 100% correct. I am very sorry you are having to go through this. There are a few questions that are important to ask so we can help you in correcting the behavior.

First, how old are the pyrenees? also the sex of the dogs?
Second, is this their first lambing experience?
Third, have they ever shown this behavior with the adult sheep?
Fourth, how long have you had the dogs? How long have they been guarding?

and lastly... can you describe when and how they are engaging in this? More detail is better. Example... all is fine until one of the lambs takes of running and then....

~Southern


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## bcnewe2 (May 9, 2013)

Can't stress more than has been mentioned....it's NEVER ok for an LGD to chase a lamb. Or anything but a predator  or another LGD for that matter. Sheer size will damage the sheep. Even if they mean well.  Loved to death will be the result.

Sounds like you have 2 so I'd make sure they were playing with each other instead.

Good luck


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## Grazer (May 9, 2013)

As others have already pointed out, you must never allow for your LGD's to "play" with the livestock/poultry. 
They will chase sheep or play with them so hard that they often end up hurting or even killing them.
So it's incredibly important not to leave them unsupervised with sheep (or any type of livestock/poultry for that matter) until they are mature enough and have proven themselves trustworthy. 
Which usually happens around the time they turn 18 months-2 years.
You have to always correct them when you catch them showing undesirable behavior and praise them calmly (so they don't get too excited) when they behave well.
I have feeling your Pyr is still young, but you must remain consistent. It's the only way you can put a stop to this. 

If they are bored, give them something to chew on (raw bones, bully sticks or antlers) and if you have the time, play with them, away from the sheep, on a daily basis for half an hour or so.


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## Laura_P (May 10, 2013)

Thanks Everyone, for taking time to offer some wisdom. My husband and I are new to farming and to keeping sheep. We got our first five ewes about a year ago, followed by another five a few months later. Then we got the ram. 

The Pyrenees are brother and sister (Jack and Jill) around a year and a half old. We got them from Craigslist when they were 11 months. When we brought them home, (we had the male a few weeks before his sister came to live with us), we kept them near the house and spent plenty of time "lovin' on them". Once my husband had fenced in their pasture (approximately 2 acre field), they did not want to stay in it (imagine that)! Hubby hot wired the top and bottom of the fence which kept them from climbing over and digging under. 

We keep them in the two acres all the time because if they get out, they run off and are gone for hours at a time. They don't escape the two acres unless they sneak out during feeding time - if the gate is left open. Then they prance happily into the sunset, pretending they don't hear me screaming their names. Our routine is that we let the sheep out into a bigger pasture in the morning to graze, then return them to the smaller pasture in the evening to spend the night with the dogs. 

At first J&J were a little apprehensive about the sheep, but now they seem fine together. They never chased the adults and the only time they are aggressive at all is if a sheep comes too close while the dogs are eating. That is why we make sure to feed them away from the sheep now. The first lamb was born on April 15th. Jill was extremely protective of it for a few hours, she wouldn't let Jack near it. She was aggressive toward Jack after a couple of the other babies were born too, but after a few days, she didn't mind if Jack was around. My husband and I have only observed them chasing the lambs twice and both times were in the evening after the sheep were back in the pen and the dogs had dinner. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened other times. It seems as though, as everyone is resting at the end of the day, the dogs just want to play, so they start chasing lambs. I didn't see that there anything else leading up to it. Of course, I wasn't looking for signs either. I would've thought it was kind of "cute" except the lambs didn't really seem like they were having a good time.

So, I think that is all the information you asked for. If you can give me any tips, it would be greatly appreciated. Believe me, I know the dogs aren't the only problem, the humans are kind of a mess too. We have a hard time with consistency, but we don't want anyone to get hurt, we love our animals and we want to be good stewards of them. If you can give specific examples of how to discipline the dogs and how to guide them to breaking bad habits, it would be great.

Thanks again! Laura


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## woodsie (May 10, 2013)

I've definitely made my fair share of mistakes with my Pyrs too, they certainly different type of dogs but we sure love them. I noticed that usually the dogs are being playful in the evening too, usually with each other but yesterday I noticed them trying to play with the ram. What I did was yell in a firm tone "no, leave it" or whatever your command is to stop. Usually they then come over to me and roll over. I make sure I look right at them in the eye and give them a talking to. Then calmly praise them with a pat on the head or chest run when they turn the focus away from their play target. I usually stay close by for the next 10 mins and see if they go back to play, then repeat correction and keep the correction time longer. If they did something with physical contact, I will actually makes sure they are on their back (submissive position) and give them a pin with the scruff of the neck against the ground and a very firm no. 

Bones and some attention also help to release that puppy energy.

Hope that helps. I just had my first lambs this morning so I will be watching for others advice as well - we are all learning together!


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## Grazer (May 11, 2013)

I think the reason why LGD's become more playful in the evening, especially in spring & summer, is probably because they then enjoy the temperatures going down.
LGD breeds are double-coated dogs, and a lot of LGD breeds have thick, heavy coats. And even though some LGD breeds do better in hot climates than others, they all in general prefer cooler temperature.
So after a good dinner and with the weather being cooler in the evening, they have tons of energy. 
This is when young(er) LGD's will misbehave, but as long as you correct them with a firm tone the moment you notice they want to chase the lambs or even stand in front of them and force them to back off, they should get the message. 
As woodsie said.. bones, some attention and playtime outside the pasture whenever you have time for it will help. 

If you want, you may read these articles written by experienced LGD breeders/owners on basically how to get LGD's to behave.
You want them to understand that you are in charge without getting too harsh (because you don't want them to not trust you or shut down). So I think these articles give some additional great tips:

http://www.luckyhit.net/guardd01.htm 

http://www.luckyhit.net/guardd05.htm 

http://www.milkandhoneyfarm.com/dogs/training.html


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## secuono (May 11, 2013)

You need to stop that kind of 'play'. It will lead to bad things if they aren't old enough where they are about to mature and chill out on their own. 

My pup has suddenly gotten very professional and lazy, she turned one year in early April. She won't bother the sheep anymore, but the only lamb we had born so far loves to hassle her and get her to play. 
It's very obvious when the two play vs when the pup was attacking/chasing the sheep. The lamb will run at her, kick/paw, head butt, bounce, walk over her, buck and run away to get the pup to play with him. Whole time they are playing, the lamb is frolicking, jumping, tail wiggling, leaving but coming right back to the dog, head tossing and watching the dog's reaction. 

When it's not play, the sheep are just trying to move away, holding their ground, foot stomping, trying to head butt with force.


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## goodhors (May 11, 2013)

First question is if the dogs have been neutered.  Shouldn't be letting 
brother and sister breed, unless BOTH are STUPENDOUS individuals of
their breed, have good traits to pass on.  With no hormones going thru them, 
they should be more willing to stay home, not get distracted from the jobs 
they are SUPPOSED to be doing at the home place.  AND you won't have 
any surprise puppies you don't want.  

My first step would be to find a GOOD electric collar set, which is able 
to go for BIG distances, 1/4 to half mile signals.  Able to control two collars
individually if possible.  I have seen these good collars for sale, usually named
as Hunting dog training collars.  They are not cheap, but you CAN get good 
deals on used ones.  Test the collar to make sure it works, you can use a low
setting on your hand, before buying used.  Check Craigslist, Ebay, and the 
local Farm store for places to buy.  They are not cheap, often over $200. but 
worth the cost if you can get the dogs doing what you want!  Shave the dogs necks so you 
have good skin contact with the collar studs inside the black box.

I would first let the dogs wear the collars a couple days, get used to and then
ignore the collars.  Then I would start my dog lessons, beginning with "COME".
The booklet that came with the collar gave clear instructions, good plan to 
deal with dog in good way.  After that it is DOG choice on if they obey PROMPTLY, 
or get punished.  Dog TOTALLY understands what you want of them, but CHOOSES
not to obey, so is punished for that.  

I also recommend with such large dogs, using a higher power setting.  This is so 
dog doesn't learn to ignore the punishment and bull on thru it to get his own way.
This is one of those nasty "you have to be mean to protect the dog from himself" 
kind of deals.  If dog kills sheep you are going to kill or dump the dog regardless.
You can't keep that kind of dog on a farm.  Better to MAKE him be obedient NOW, 
than to have to make the ugly choice later on.  Pyrs are TOO BIG to be disobedient, 
or giving you the "one paw, doggie salute" as they jog off ignoring your calls.

It isn't easy, but for the dog's own good, they MUST be obedient, NOT play with 
lambs.  I have needed to use an electric dog collar on a couple of dogs over the 
years.  I have trained a lot of dogs over the years, but these couple were just 
"doing their own thing" and blowing me off.  Things changed IMMEDIATELY for 
the better, when I could "reach out and touch them" close or far away.  No more
ignoring what they were told to do, they PROMPTLY behaved as asked.  They became
good doggie citizens, reliable, obedient ALL THE TIME, and much SAFER because they
did as requested WHEN it was requested.  No they were not robots, but they 
were much better dogs as they went on thru life.

Sorry, as others said, you have to be really hard-line on this bad behavior with the dogs.
Someone is going to get killed, probably sheep, if play isn't nipped right NOW.


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## secuono (May 11, 2013)

There's no reason to be training the dogs with electric collars and punishing it for not obeying the come command, coming to you should always be a good thing. 
The electric collar ~may~ stop the chasing, but you didn't mention anything about their history. How old are they, do they have a place to be locked away from the sheep? 
You need to be 100% certain you won't miss train them with the ecollar, it's very easy to teach them something totally different with it and very easy for them to figure out YOU are causing the collar to shock them. Even if you leave the collars on, if you use anything else along with the collar, the dog will learn it's you shocking it. That leads to the dog only doing what you want when you are in sight! Don't say anything, don't wave, don't whistle, don't even look or react when you are pressing the button. Just go off and sit anywhere, just relaxing, watching the dog from the corner of your eye. Don't move or look when you press the button. 
Larger dogs usually need a medium setting, long fur dogs need their neck shaved. If the dog yelps, turn the knob down one and try again the next time the dog messes up. It'd be best to keep the dogs locked away while training, but you need to be careful. You can be doing other things, like mowing or fixing fencing and having the remote ready.


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## Laura_P (May 12, 2013)

Great information, everyone! I probably won't use a shock collar; I think it would require a little more self discipline than I can provide. It seems we may be able to nip this in the bud just by speaking firmly to them. I'm amazed at how sensitive they are to stern words. I appreciate everyone taking time to assist me with this problem.

A couple of things I guess I didn't mention:

We got them when they were 11 months, so they are close to a year and a half old.

The female was neutered when we got her, we had the male neutered a couple of months after we got him.

I was going to post a photo of them (because they are, of course, beautiful)  but I'm having problems figuring it out. My seven-year-old would be rolling her eyes at me right about now!


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