# HELP! Pics included..



## fiset94

So aprox. 2-3 weeks ago one of my 4 goats started to exhibit signs of lice/mites. ( never had it here on farm before)  I treated her as follows:

_Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar on her back
Organic Spray- I can't remember what the name was.. It was for horses but the local co-op said that it would work great for her lice

Ivermectin- Paste

  CYlence -  on her- and the other 3 goats backs

 In the meantime... she has become VERY LISTLESS... Won't eat or drink... stands there with her tail tucked. When I put her on the milking stand the backs of her legs are missing so much hair... and her teats are all scaly and the skin is slothing off....

I took her temp and it was 105.4-_

_Brought her to the vet and they did skin scraping... said NO mites or lice..... Gave her a blood test and said that it looked like she had some sort of infection... gave me pen G to give her_


_Fast forward to now.... 1 week later.... She is not listless anymore.. is eating fine... BUT_

_She still has Dandruff all over her... I shaved her ( she is the black and white one) in hopes that the chunks of hair falling off her would be less noticeable

NOW... the other THREE goats have the SAME SKIN ISSUE!  one of them... the tri colored one is pregnant with triplets and I am so scared for her to loose them! She is going BALD!

Please look at the pics and give me some advice... I don't know what to do......  The last two pics are of my black and white doe's leg.. she has orangish crusting..._

_and the last photo is of my brown doe that is not loosing hair yet.. but her skin looks really flaky_


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## Hens and Roos

Not sure, could they possibly have some mineral deficiency?

@Sweetened @Pearce Pastures @OneFineAcre @Southern by choice


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## goat-heaven

Oka here's what I do I don't ever use powders put used motor oil on her it kill mites,lice,ticks in helps with hair growth rite now my doe cookie looks so bad she started losing hair like that I put used motor oil on her her hair is growing back fast I used it on all my goats in horses it works I don't care what no one says it dose work my dad told me about it


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## OneFineAcre

I would have sworn it was mites and that one pic looks like lice
But the 105 temp
Would indicate some sort of infection
I have a doe who seems susceptible to mites but she loses hair around her eyes and around her hooves and gets little bumps in her ears nothing like what yours look like
She only responds to ivermectin injections but all my others have no issues and we spray them once per year  year with diluted permethrin
We spray down the barn with a stronger mix
If she responded to antibiotics maybe the others have the same infection
I honestly don't know


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## babsbag

goat-heaven said:


> Oka here's what I do I don't ever use powders put used motor oil on her it kill mites,lice,ticks in helps with hair growth rite now my doe cookie looks so bad she started losing hair like th put used motor oil on her her hair is growing back fast I used it on all my goats in horses it works I don't care what no one says it dose work my dad told me about it



Sorry, I wouldn't put motor oil on a goat...let alone one that is pregnant. They would absorb all that nasty petroleum into their system and we all know that can't be good for them.

The infection could have been totally unrelated and just a fluke. I would go with the injectable ivermectin like OneFineAcre said. Interesting that the vet didn't find anything when looking for lice or mites but I would treat them anyways. Maybe your treatment worked on the first doe and that is why the vet didn't see anything and then she came home and got reinfected. Just a guess.


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## fiset94

So at what dose would you suggest I give the injectable invermectin? .. and how often?  I want to start this ASAP...


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## babsbag

Be warned...Ivermectin stings like a (fill in the blank). Some goats will literally flip and you will think you killed them. You didn't but be ready.

1 cc /40 lb and don't use the Ivermectin Plus, not sure it is safe for bred does so just use the straight Ivermectin injectable.


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## fiset94

Thank you so much!! And I will probably put them on the milk stand and offer them some grain... then quickly surprise them...


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## Sweetened

My does bald like this and get crusty skin in the winter with mineral deficiency if they run out of or stop using their blocks, but its never usually all over, mostly the face. its a copper problem for us. We have not yet gotten our hands on boluses, seem hard to find and import here.

I would say the orange crust is the skin infection. If the vet did a scraping and isnt finding mites, id take the other does for skin scrapings before treating. Are they on pellets at all? Could be an adverse reaction to an ingredient if you got a bad or old batch?

Retreat your other doe in 7 days for mites to try and kill off a cycle.


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## Pearce Pastures

I would have suspected mites too but the locations of the missing hair are strange...mite hair loss tends to be ears, face, pits, tail/scrotum/vulva.  This seems like it is randomly along her back.

With a fever like that, there is, like the vet said, some infection here.  Good that you treated for that but the hair loss, skin flaking is a problem and I don't think it is necessarily related to the other infection.

Do the ivermectin injectable once every 7-9 days for at least four weeks.  Clean out bedding!  Additionally, get concentrated permethrin, mix it up as a topical application for her and apply it using a sprayer also every 7-9 days--careful not to get in her eyes and mouth.  You can also use the same  permethrin and mix it as a premise spray, and coat sleeping lounging areas.

I

HATE

MITES!

However...she may also have mineral deficiencies.  What is your current regime for mineral intake?


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## Southern by choice

@fiset94   so sorry you are dealing with this and the poor goat. I know it must be heartbreaking seeing her like this.

More than likely a Staph infection.

A staph infection can look like mites. 
You need an Rx for treatment..... I forget what it is off the top of my head.... 

Just an FYI- working at a vets and with vets for years skin scrapings for mites are very unreliable. You have to scrape in the exact spot where the mite is. Often vets and techs scrape where the evidence "WAS" meaning the mite has moved on.


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## Pearce Pastures

Good idea too Southern.

Does she/did she have anything like pustules or pimples?  Also, using motor oil might smother mites but is not the safest or most effective treatment and I would not recommend it.


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## fiset94

I buy the goat minerals from Hoggers.. Golden blend.. free choice - You think that I should bring the preg. goat in and have her tested prior to the ivermec. shots... or just try the shots and see what happens? She did 3 skin scrapping on the black and white doe and said that she found nothing at all.- but could they have mites and just not be seeing them?  I was looking at various photos online and it kinda looks like Mange... is that related to mites? They hair is literally falling off in CLUMPS.


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## Pearce Pastures

Boy I don't know.  In clumps...you may have something mineral related going on.  With mites, the hair loss I have seen is not like chunks falling out, more like it thins, gets wrinkly, then bald if not caught right away.

You can send if for testing---I think Southern did that before.  Copper?  Selenium? Zinc?


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## Southern by choice

Staph infection I tell ya!  
Mange is from mites. 
Goats are susceptible to Demodex and Sarcoptes.

At this point you may have killed off whatever was on her but if there is a severe infestation secondary infections are not uncommon. 
I do agree that there is probably more than one thing going on here. Clumps are indicative of deficiency. 

It would be a good idea to have a mineral analysis done. 

Years ago we had a Kiko come in with Psoroptes cuniculi.... and with that a secondary infection. Treated with oxytetracyclene  and permethrins for the mites.


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## Pearce Pastures

I am going back through old posts/advice/follow ups to see what might have been similar in other BYHer animals and what I see is several that site mineral issues.  Not to say it isn't mite or staph, but even with minerals, a lot of the country lacks the levels of things like copper, selenium and zinc that goats need. 

In looking at the U.S. maps as a starting point, it seems like Maryland is low in copper and has both areas of high and low selenium so it would depend on where you are---even then, other things impact mineral absorption
http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/se/east-central.html

Do you have access to a copper bolus or maybe could you place an order?  You vet might have it too.  It might be worth a call to ask about that and BoSe.

Edited because SBC was posting at the same time---she also has a good point.  Does Pen treat staph?


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## Sweetened

If you were considering the motor oil trick, you can use olive, canola or veggie oil with thebsame effect (its how we kill scaley leg here). Put a small (like 2 drops to 1 litre) bit of peppermint essential oil and the same of oregano essential oil in the veggie based oil, helps for skin infection and cools irritation while stifeling the mites


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## fiset94

Where would I go for a Mineral Analysis? My vet?? What is the best bet to do here.... Call vet in the a.m and have them take a look at the pregnant doe..get a mineral analysis done ( assuming blood work) and skin scrapping off of her?.... or go to TS and pick up Ivermectin and start the shots? I just don't want to wait too long... It seemed from the time that I saw the flaky skin to the clumps of hair missing was about 3 days....

Edit to add... I have been dousing coconut oil on the black and white doe ( 3 days in a row)  to help with the horrible skin... and it doesn't seem to be doing the trick... I read that coconut conditioner helps with lice so I figured that I would go straight to the good stuff- Organic Oil... but the problem still persists.


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## fiset94

Southern by choice said:


> Staph infection I tell ya!
> Mange is from mites.
> Goats are susceptible to Demodex and Sarcoptes.
> 
> At this point you may have killed off whatever was on her but if there is a severe infestation secondary infections are not uncommon.
> I do agree that there is probably more than one thing going on here. Clumps are indicative of deficiency.
> 
> It would be a good idea to have a mineral analysis done.
> 
> Years ago we had a Kiko come in with Psoroptes cuniculi.... and with that a secondary infection. Treated with oxytetracyclene  and permethrins for the mites.



How would my vet test for Staph infection? Should I call and mention it to them?? They try hard but aren't the best "goat vets"....My goats and one other family bring their goats to them- They deal with a lot of horses-dogs-cats....


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## Southern by choice

Most vets can just tell. Every vet is different.
I would propose it as a suggestion....
_..."Could it possibly be some type of Staph infection and or maybe also a deficiency of some sort? "_
This opens up dialogue without them getting edgy or defensive.


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## frustratedearthmother

Has it been as wet, humid, wet, nasty, wet and gross in your part of the country as it's been in Texas? Just throwin' this out there...  I wonder if it is something akin to rain rot...  BTW - I noticed some of the "dandruff" on my goats today.  GRRRR
*
Cause*

"Rain rot or rain scald (also known as dermatophilosis) is caused by bacterial infection, and it often is mistaken for a fungal disease," Swinker says. "The bacteria live in the outer layer of skin and cause from pinpoint to large, crusty scabs."

_Dermatophilus_ _congolensis_, the bacterium found to cause this infection, lives in dormant within the skin until the skin is compromised in some way, which can happen when there's prolonged wetness, high humidity, high temperature, or attacks by biting insects, according to _The Merck Veterinary Manual_. Warm temperatures and high humidity can also cause an increase in the number of biting insects (particularly flies and ticks) present that can spread the infection from horse to horse.

Rain rot occurs when the infective zoospores (created by _D. congolensis_ bacteria to propagate themselves) reach a compromised skin site. Swinker says, "The zoospores germinate and produce hyphae (threadlike tentacles), which penetrate into the living epidermis and spread in all directions, resulting in an acute inflammatory skin condition."

*Treatment*

Most acute cases of rain rot can heal on their own; however, Swinker recommends treating even minor cases because the lesions can spread and worsen. The lesions also interfere with use (especially if they are located along the horse's back or withers) and they can be painful for the horse.

She says, "In early or less severe cases, simply removing the scabs (by bathing the horse) with antimicrobial shampoos and currying will take care of the problem." However, more severe cases in which the infection has affected deeper skin layers might require your veterinarian to give antibiotic injections (such as procaine penicillin and streptomycin). Unlike most skin conditions, rain rot is not itchy, but it can be painful to the touch. Be cautious when bathing or removing the scabs.


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## fiset94

Does staph infection always present itself with pimples or sores? The tri colored doe's skin is smooth and now.. bald where the hair fell out. IN other places you can see a lot of dry flaky skin. They ALL have the Horrible dry flaky skin.. I've had them for almost 4 years and never seen such a thing.


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## fiset94

It just recently started getting rainy... we've had a horribly cold winter.. with snow STILL on the ground in many places.


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## Sweetened

Id get at least theboregnant doe in with your vet and add the staph question to your list and deal with it that way but thats me personally.when ive done as much as you have and its not working or is spreading, i just stop treating and haul off to the vet at that point.


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## Pearce Pastures

Okay, so last night, I was reading this before bed and then had nightmares...that my hair was falling out in clumps and I was trying to find some way to cover it up while I figured out what was going on.  I even went to a salon to see if they could do one of those weave in things.  WOW was I glad when I woke up.


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## fiset94

LOL!!! Maybe try a Sulfur dip.... that is what my vet suggested yesterday! I mentioned Staph.. and mineral deficiency but she thinks that it is lice. ( from the pics) She was unable to see them in person yesterday!  So today I get to apply stinky sulfur to them ( and for the next 6 weeks).. any suggestions on putting it on 4 goats with ease? Thinking that I should chain them all to the fence and then go down the line applying?


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## Goat Whisperer

@fiset94 I saw your pic scrolling at the "pics from our members" banner. 

Did you ever figure out what it was? Treatment?


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## lkmartin1230

When my goats were babies, the Internet said to put ACv on the goat.....but then a smart family member said, try putting it in their water. My suggestion for the lice/tick part, but ACV in one water trough, and then leave the other just water so, if the goats don't like the ACV taste they won't dehydrate.


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## fiset94

My vet never found out the cause of the itching... I had several tests done and still no answers.. very frustrated to say the least. They said that it was def. not lice or mites. She was convinced that it also was not staph. I asked about a mineral deficiency and she said that it did not present as that... The hair has grown back on all the goats.. but the black and white one still has dandruff... Since that time the other goat has kidded and her babies look itchy to me....

I mentioned this to my vet and she just shrugged it off and said that goats can have itchy skin....

Fast forward to my next huge problem with in the herd... one of my goats... not the two afflicted with itchy skin.... has a large golf ball solid lump under her Jaw. I found it on her yesterday and brought her to the vet today. I had the entire herd tested for CL- CAE- and Jones... 2 years ago- all neg.

The ONLY time that they are in contact with any other goats is when I send them out to be bred and now I am in panic mode that my goat got CL from an infected goat when she was sent out in May to be bred!!!

They did a small biopsy via needle  and sent this away for analysis.... they said that I should have my answer by Monday.

I am so heartbroken...


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## Hens and Roos

fiset94 said:


> My vet never found out the cause of the itching... I had several tests done and still no answers.. very frustrated to say the least. They said that it was def. not lice or mites. She was convinced that it also was not staph. I asked about a mineral deficiency and she said that it did not present as that... The hair has grown back on all the goats.. but the black and white one still has dandruff... Since that time the other goat has kidded and her babies look itchy to me....
> 
> I mentioned this to my vet and she just shrugged it off and said that goats can have itchy skin....
> 
> Fast forward to my next huge problem with in the herd... one of my goats... not the two afflicted with itchy skin.... has a large golf ball solid lump under her Jaw. I found it on her yesterday and brought her to the vet today. I had the entire herd tested for CL- CAE- and Jones... 2 years ago- all neg.
> 
> The ONLY time that they are in contact with any other goats is when I send them out to be bred and now I am in panic mode that my goat got CL from an infected goat when she was sent out in May to be bred!!!
> 
> They did a small biopsy via needle  and sent this away for analysis.... they said that I should have my answer by Monday.
> 
> I am so heartbroken...



sorry to hear this... for the test results


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## HeidiO

It sounds like rain rot to me too,  my horses would get it when it was spring. 
Also, I think CL takes longer to show up.


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## babsbag

Praying that the test will be negative.

@HeidiO  the incubation period for CL can be very short, less than a month.

@fiset94 So I am guessing that the place they went for breeding is not a tested herd?  But hang in there, I have had goats with some gnarly abscesses and lumps and non of them have been CL. So is the goat in quarantine right now? You DO NOT want that busting open in your pens...did the vet lance it and drain it?


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## fiset94

Yes... in Alcatraz... Poor thing. I feel so bad but the vet said to keep her locked away until the test comes back. The vet didn't lance it because  " It is just starting to fill and there isn't even enough to drain out".... But it is the size of a golf ball and hard. ... She did an Ultrasound to come to that conclusion...

She used a needle and pulled out some gunk to send away to be tested... she told me to apply hot compresses to it daily and that it should break open in about 3 days.- and to call when it does.


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## Goat Whisperer

Hang in there 

Like the others said keep her separated, just in case.

A lot of people always assume a goat has CL when a lump shows up but many things can cause lumps so please try not to stress to much

Have you seen these?


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## lkmartin1230

ACV will get rid of lice, fleas, and ticks. I thought that you rubbed it on them,that's what I get for listening to the internet,you actually put it in their water. But, make sure you have another trough with just water so, if they don't like the taste, they won't dehydrate.


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## HeidiO

I guess I've read so many different opinions online I gave up.  I had a scare with a lump also.  I gave vaccines and had been doing them all in the armpit.  One of my wethers got squirrely and in a pinch I put it in his flank.  Forgot all about it, he got an abcess and I totally panicked.  After freaking out I remembered. I still treated him carefully, but he was from a closed herd and I'm not sure where he would have picked it up otherwise.  
Anyway, hopefully you are dealing with something minor.  Good luck!


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## fiset94

Well biopsy came back as positive. 

I had the rest of the herd tested via blood sample sent away to WADDL - I have a strong feeling that the other doe sent to be bred with the positive one is also infected. 

My only hope now is that the rest of the herd is clean. When I contacted the breeder with the Bucks - she informed me that there was a doe that came to her farm prior to my two does...  This other Doe had a small absess under her chin and the owner didn't mention it to the owner of the bucks. 

Hence... the CL started spreading... 

Now.. That poor lady with the bucks lost ALL but four of her goats to CL- Including both her stud goats..... When I went to drop off my "alcatraz" goat to her... I saw her herd and it was such a shame. ( She will Slaughter the CL goats)

Tomorrow is the day that I get the test results back and I am so nervous that I too will loose my entire herd.


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## frustratedearthmother

That stinks so bad.  Sorry you're having to go through this.


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## HeidiO

So sorry to hear this.


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## Goat Whisperer

I'm soooooooooo sorry


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## Hens and Roos

sorry to hear this


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## babsbag

So sorry it was positive, I was hoping for the better outcome. Depending on your goals for your herd and showing/selling etc. you can keep CL positive goats and some of them may never get an abscess. I know it makes it next to impossible to sell kids but if you pull the kids and bottle raise them and the does have no active abscess at the time you can have CL negative kids.

Did the abscess break open on your land? Hope not as this will make it so much easier to control.

It is devastating, but it is also manageable. There is a vaccine as well that you might consider.


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## Goat Whisperer

babsbag said:


> Their is a vaccine as well that you might consider.


I know this is common for boer breeders to use. Don't know anyone that uses it in dairy goats 

I believe it will cause a blood test to come back positive so I would at least get everyone tested and if you have any that are negative retest them in a few months.


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## babsbag

It is true that it will cause the blood test to come back positive. I have been told that subsequent tests will show lower titers; don't know if that is true as I have no experience.  My vet had a vaccine made for her herd years ago, I think all those goats are gone now, but they were dairy goats; but I see it more in meat goat herds. I think that is because many of the meat goats are terminal animals so having a positive CL test is no big deal as they won't be around past a year to begin with so they never get tested, but having an abscess can ruin a carcass.


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## Mike CHS

I'm sorry this happened


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## fiset94

Well... as much as I enjoy being right... I wish that I was wrong in this situation.

My hunch was that the other doe that was breed with the positive one had CL. .... Well blood work shows that she is a very high 236!... def. positive. and to make matters worse she is pregnant. sigh.

I had my two other does blood tested and 4 babies ( 6 weeks old) the mom and the babies were negative!- yeah for that!

But the other female had a score of 16- thus positive.

I am considering asking the buck breeder to take the two positive does for me- and wait until the one delivers and pull the babies and I will bottle feed them.

I am so sad that it has come to this.

Michele


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## Goat Whisperer

I know how hard this is for you @fiset94 

I am so sorry, my heart hurts for you.


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## babsbag

Have you ever had an abscess break on your property? Was the doe that was 16 at the breeders as well? If not, any guesses as to where she got it? The most likely mode of transmission among herd mates is an abscess.

I attached a newsletter from UC Davis that has an article in it about CL. According to them a titer of 16 can be seen in positive and negative goats. I personally have 2 goats with titers above 8. One is at 16 and one was at 32 one time and 16 the next; neither have had an abscess or kids that test positive. It has been this way for 6 years now.

Hope you can get the breeder to take her and get her kids.


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## Latestarter

So sorry that you're having to deal with this. What a nightmare... I hope that your land/property wasn't contaminated and you can get rid of the infected animals before that happens. Wishing you well.


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## fiset94

I have never CL on my property before... and the doe in alcatraz didn't have a leaking abscess when I put in in the stall away from the others. The 2nd doe that was breed with her... I JUST noticed a marble size bump under her jaw 3 days ago.. so again nothing leaking.

I am so stumped as to how the third Doe got infected.... She does not have any lumps and was not sent out to be bred.

Are you thinking that she is neg. but testing positive for some reason?

The breeder agreed to let me have the preg. one kid on her farm and remove the babies to be bottled fed. I am just so nervous to keep the 16 goat on my property...even though she does not have any abscess... I just don't want to loose my last goat to CL.  ( I only had 4 adult females)

Another question.... I purchased the CL vaccine and plan to give it to the one CL neg. adult.. What is the dosage on that for her.... and her babies aren't 3 months of age yet.. do you know if it is safe to give it to them as well?


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## Latestarter

Is it possible that one of the 2 for sure infected girls might have had abcess leakage/spores/whatever it's called, on their coat from being at the breeder's and might have given it to the 3rd doe that way? Before she/they went to alcatraz?

Glad the breeder will take the doe for kidding and remove the babies for you. Hopefully they can remain uninfected... If it were me, I wouldn't even take a chance with the 3rd doe... Is it worth the risk? I don't know...


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## fiset94

I ended taking the 3rd doe down too...   I felt like I couldn't take the chance. I also gave the CL vaccine to the last doe standing. My first blunder....She is nursing her babies so hopefully that was okay to do... I couldn't find any info about that online. I gave her Case-BAC from Valley Vet... didn't even see that they had one specifically for Goats.. my 2nd  blunder. Lastly, I got the Vaccine on Monday and had it in my basement- in the unopened box- I didn't even see the HUGE print on the front of the box.. " NEEDS REFRIGERATED"  3rd Blunder!!! It is nice and cold in my basement... I would say 50 degrees- it was between two ice packs and in a styrofoam container. When I took it out it felt really cold and so I took the chance and used it.

Ugh. I feel like this CL thing is really making me loose brain cells!


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## Goat Whisperer

I would have waited on vaccinating her.  She was negative but now that you gave her the vaccine she will always test positive- the issue is you won't know unless she gets a CL lump.


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## fiset94

Yeah... I read that online.... once you give it ... they will test positive... but I am just so nervous because I lost ALL my other goats... and I would of always wondered if she ended up getting it..... What If I would of gave her the Vacc... could of it been prevented... kwim?

I will have to retest her and her 4 kids in 6 months from now... but between that time I will be on the high alert for any lumps or bumps- also any side effects from the Vacc...


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## Latestarter

So sorry you're dealing with this  Hope you get through it and can put it behind you. Know it will take some time.


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## germanchickTX

My kids had orangish crusts between legs and dandruff and they seemed to scratch a lot. One bit her tail all into sores with thickening skin. Didn't find any crawlies; the vet said to bathe them twice a week with an iodine shampoo and brush them; if not better within two weeks to come by. On the sore tail I used Alu-Shield spray.
They seem to be ok now. I also use food grade DE on floor, bedding and the goats themselves and a few drops mineral oil in their ears.
Maybe this helps...


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## babsbag

So sorry, what a mess to deal with. Sometimes this owning livestock stuff is so hard. Is it possible that the third doe came with CL when you bought her?

I found a doe dead in my field the other day and took her in for a necropsy. Just waiting to see what mess I get to deal with in my herd.  I can so relate to losing brain cells.


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## Goat Whisperer

@fiset94 

Do you think you could share your story about how your girls picked up CL in another thread? As a warning for those that don't want to own bucks themselves and want to rent one instead. So many newbies will rent a buck or drop their does off to get bred and have no idea about huge risk of their goats picking up diseases  

I'm not against anyone studding a buck out but it is a huge risk, and as you have learned it can be heartbreaking in the end.


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