# My Sheep Journal~ I'm a grandma!  Black Betty had twins!!!



## Beekissed

I decided to chronicle my journey with having sheep for the first time and will try to start at the beginning, include helpful articles I've read, take pics when possible of lambing, drenching, feeding, etc. 

I'd like anyone to visit this journal and add helpful hints and insights to the process so we can all learn together.  Please remember that journals are like someone's home~be polite and nonconfrontational at all times.  We like to have a good time here on Starlight Farms!  

I currently have two St. Croix/Katahdin cross ewes lambs I purchased from a local farmer back in June that had just weaned at 4 mo. of age at that time.  

We named them Black Betty and Ugly Betty.  Black Betty was slightly bigger, one of twins, still keeps her wool and is the more friendly of the two.  She is black with a white star, two white socks and an all white tail~uncut in the tradition of hair sheep.  

Ugly Betty was smaller, the runt of triplets, and is colored like a Holstein cow.  She is true hair and has turned out to be more assertive than her friend and also has caught up to and is in danger of passing BB in size.  

Here are the Bettys:

At 4 mo. of age, newly arrived on the farm!








At about 8 mo. of age, fat as ticks:







I am trying to be as all natural as I can be in my husbandry efforts for all my animals, sheep included.  This journal will help me keep track of my efforts, trials and tribulations, etc. with raising sheep on an acre of ground, without using chemical interventions~if possible.


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## big brown horse

Thank you!  I have the same goals for my sheep.  Your journal will really help me!!


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## ksalvagno

Cute sheep! I like their coloring.


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## Beekissed

Well, most of us folks are kind of new to sheeples, BBH, so I thought we should have a thread or two devoted to comparing notes on methods and documenting progress about things like sick animals and what works, what doesn't, what is available, etc.

I would be honored if you would contribute and help me build a journal that could help others and ourselves along this path.  



ksalvagno~thanks!    They are very mild-mannered and funny to be around also.  They are absolutely the easiest animals I've ever kept, hands down.  They don't make a peep, they keep my lawn and orchard beautifully groomed and they don't drink much water nor eat much hay.  What could be better?


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## big brown horse

We do need more sheeple people don't we? HA! 


Funny little story, I had a nice man sheer Dolly with a pair of blades, (like big sharp sheep scissors) and the minute he sat her on her bottom, she went limp and relaxed.  It was amazing!  All that time I spent wrestling with her to snip off the nasty wool b/t her legs! 

Anyway...


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## Beekissed

They are helpless on their rumps!    

So far, for these sheep , no traditional dewormers have been used since they left their place of origin.  I have used Shaklees soap in their water a few times but nothing else.  

I am going to start a drenching program this winter after reading a few of these articles:


http://www.garlicbarrier.com/sheep.html

http://www.sheepmagazine.com/issues/24/24-1/Laurie_Ball-Gisch.html

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/organic/organic_14c.php

I have made my own ACV and left it unpastuerized to preserve the probiotics of the solution.  

My goal is to see exceptional health, fertility and growth in my grass fed sheep this winter.

I also am feeding sea kelp meal and coarse salt as minerals and have done so all summer.  I just purchased a goat/sheep mineral block for the extra selenium needed for when the sheep are eating hay this winter~my hay is not the greatest, so I will also be supplementing with winter squash, pumpkins and stored apples.  

Other than BBH and me, are any of you taking the homeopathic method of animal husbandry with your sheep?


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## big brown horse

Thanks for those websites Bee!


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## ksalvagno

good articles. How do you make your own ACV?


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## Beekissed

I have an orchard, so I have plenty of apples at my disposal.  I just juiced a bunch of apples and let the juice ferment in open containers in a warm, dark place.  

The juice forms a "mother", or a yeast clump, during this process.  You don't get to see this in store bought vinegar as it has been pastuerized, which kills the good bacteria.  These good bacteria, or probiotics, are great immune system boosters.  


I don't anticipate any problems with my sheep not  cooperating with the drenching process....they are pigs!  They follow me around like dogs and try to eat anything that is in my hands~this evening they tried to eat my hammer....    When they find out that sweet things come from the drench gun, they will practically chew it up to get at it!


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## Beekissed

Some discussion on the boards about not being able to raise animals, particularly goats, organically and this is somewhat disturbing.  

Now, I don't even attempt organic, as I have no interest in being certified and can't buy hay that is certified.  BUT, I am attempting to do all natural as much as possible.  So far, so good.  

Some folks think that this just involves medicines or not medicines, dewormers or not dewormers.  I think it involves more responsible animal husbandry~like pasture rotation, culling for breed hardiness and productivity, creating the best and healthiest scenario for your stock and being consistent.  

I like my sheep very well.  But I also like to have animals with a large degree of sustainability.  So, first, I chose a breed that is known for this.  

*1.  Choose a breed that is right for your expectations, your climate, your pasture/environment, your needs.*

This is probably the most important decision you can make at this point.  If you want show breeds, then buckle down for touchy immune systems and a truck load of health issues, as these animals have been bred for breed standards and looks, not for sustainability and plain ol' work.  

Before I bought these sheep, I did much research and reading, planning and envisioning just what I wanted for my farm dot.  I spoke with people who owned the breed to see if what I had read was basically true and I prepared a place for shelter and feeding.

_Next~choose what you your husbandry style or method will be.  _


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## Beekissed

*2.  Choose your desired method of feeding/pasturing your sheep.*

More and more folks are getting back to rotational grazing.  In the past, this has meant having several permanent paddocks in which to rotate stock, but now more folks are getting into what they call "intensive" rotational grazing.  

This usually involves moving sheep at least every 3 days, sometimes more in drought seasons.  Usually this is most easily implemented using permanent perimeter fencing and even permanent line fencing, combined with electric strand or netting as the paddock walls.

Usually, they adhere to the "one bite rule" when managing this type of grazing.  If an animal has to take more than one bite or grazes the grass to less than a two inch height, it damages the grass and makes for slower growth of new grass.  

I have been free ranging all over my acre this spring, summer and fall but will be implementing smaller paddocks this spring.  I want to try regular netting as a visual barrier as opposed to electric netting~just to see if this is effective.  I may try to use some hog panels as well.  

Wish I had more pasture.....but I hope to make the best of the small amount I have now.


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## big brown horse

Hi Bee!!        


  



:bun :bun  :bun :bun


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## Beekissed

Hey, BBH!   

How are your sheep doing this winter?  Anything new that you have learned and could add to my journal?


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## Beekissed

*3. Be prepared to monitor your animals closely for desired traits for sustainability and good performance on a natural program*. 

 For example, how much is needed to keep them on a relatively light, or even no, parasite load?  Are they fertile?  Do they have easy birthing?  Do they reject their lambs, consistently have only singles, problems with mastitis, repeated illnesses or hoof problems, do poorly on just pasture/hay or do they seem to always need supplemental feeds to stay in good condition?  Do they do well in extreme weather conditions without pampering, suffer from frequent bloating or scours?

As you monitor for desirable traits, be aware that......

*4.  If you are wanting to develop a herd that requires little to no chemical intervention for survival, culling of nonthrifty animals may be necessary. *

When I hear people say they tried herbal de-wormers or other herbal medicines and they just did not work, it makes me wonder if this is the only thing they did, or did they use them in conjunction with wise animal husbandry decisions.   

If you care to read Joel Salatin's books, you will find that he has worked for years to develop herds of cattle that respond well to his particular kind of husbandry.  He didn't just throw some herbal tinctures at his cattle and wait to see if they worked.  This would be a recipe for failure, IMO.  

No, this type of animal care is not for folks who want the easiest and cheapest route, or for folks who want to just have pets, or are doing this for a hobby. 

 The all-natural route is for serious-minded folks who are willing to take the time and diligence to think of their herd in terms of years and not months.  Who want generations of lambs, cows, goats, etc. that will also respond to natural methods. 

 For people who care about the chemicals coming out the nether end of the animal and onto their soils, who care about the chemical residues in the meats they consume, who care about developing a strong, hardy animal that requires less effort to keep, in the long run. 

In short, it's for the type of person who doesn't mind working harder today so that their _long term _goals are met.


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## 6 sheep & a llama

Hey Bee,  Great timing.  I have been thinking about doing a blog to journal my sheep raising.  I started raising sheep last June.  I am doing the natural route too because that is what I have always done for my family.  And now 6 sheep and a llama are part of the family.  I have used homeopathy for 25 years and have used a couple of remedies on one of my sheep. 
 About the non-electric mesh fencing-- my sheep always want the (greener grass) on the other side of the fence so they got caught up in the mesh fencing until I electrified it.  Worth a try though.  Thanks for starting the journal and thanks for the references.     6


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## big brown horse

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Hey, BBH!
> 
> How are your sheep doing this winter?  Anything new that you have learned and could add to my journal?


I am so glad this thread is back.  It is very informative.


Hi 6 sheep & a llama! 


My sheep are butting heads all of a sudden.   Two female, mature sheep butting heads.  Are they trying to tell me something?  I have had them for about 4 months and this is the first time they have done this.  (I have to admit, I enjoy watching them, it is a gentle, feminine way of head butting.)


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## Beekissed

BBH, my seem to do this more when they are in heat or coming into heat.  It's a little comical to watch!  

Welcome to the board, 6S&LL!  Nice to have you and it would be great if you could write about some of your methods using all natural husbandry for your animals.    So glad you are here...you can help us learn about these sheeple thingies!  

The netting was something I was tossing around in my head but I really think I will invest in hog panels for my moveable fencing.  Most of the space that I will be sectioning can be spanned by 3-4 panels.  They last around 50 years and are versatile enough to be used for many things, strong enough to deter my ram if he should try to access the girls, and they can be stored easily.  

Have you all tried these before?


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## Beekissed

If I had a farm and more land, I would truly be investing in some Royal White sheep.  These sheep seem to have it all and would soon bring a profit.

I will be researching the possibility of AI for this breed, as the purchase price of a ram is astronomical.  I would like to get a Dorper ram to cross over my gals and obtain a few Dorper/St. Croix/Katahdin ewes and then do the AI with the Royal White semen.  

Well......maybe I dream too big for this little place....but it seems that, if I am going to make any money off my offspring, they need to be bigger and meatier than these gals I have now.  Not wanting to make a killing, you understand, but it would be nice to make a little profit each year to justify having the sheep at all.  

Of course, the job they do mowing the lawn and orchard is reason enough, but I would like for them to pay for their own hay also.


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## Beekissed

This spring I am going to build a loading chute for my sheep holding pen.  I needed such a thing all this year but managed to improvise each time.

Do any of you sheep people have a loading chute or do you just place a ramp to your truck/trailer when you need to transport?  

While looking for chute plans, I found this very interesting and helpful site with plans to build just about anything one needs to have sheep:

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/our_o...ring/Features/Extension/Building_Plans/sheep/

Ooooooh, girls!  You are seriously gonna LOVE this site I found!  Check this out!   

http://www.sheep101.info/201/handling.html


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## big brown horse

You don't need a ramp when you are putting them in the back of a Honda Civic. 

JK

I have a big dog kennel that I stick them into to transport them if need be.  I don't exactly have a herd tho so it is easy.


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## Beekissed

NO!  You put those big ol' gals in a Civic?  How in the world and will you post a pic next time?!  

There was an article in MEN awhile back that showed a gal transporting a big ewe in the back of her mini van...it was hilarious!  

I won't have any help lifting sheeples into cars or trucks pretty soon, so I'm trying to think ahead.


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## big brown horse

Beekissed said:
			
		

> NO!  You put those big ol' gals in a Civic?  How in the world and will you post a pic next time?!
> 
> There was an article in MEN awhile back that showed a gal transporting a big ewe in the back of her mini van...it was hilarious!
> 
> I won't have any help lifting sheeples into cars or trucks pretty soon, so I'm trying to think ahead.


Hee hee, I was just kidding.   My neighbor has a pick up and has offered to help me transport my hogs, I mean my sheep if I need him to.

It really sucks not having a pick-up truck.  It is not in the budget at the moment as we are in MAJOR LOCK DOWN MODE, but one day...

I am very, very thankful I have good neighbors.  I better make a batch of cookies for him now that I'm thinking of it.


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## Beekissed

Yes!  My truck is really pitiful with a heavy load but it should be able to transport pigs...I mean, sheep.  You should have seen me transporting Blossom....I had to drive 30 mph and in 4 WD to make it home!  

Make that nice neighbor some cookies for me...so glad you don't have to use your Civic!


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## ksalvagno

I used to transport alpacas in my minivan before getting my truck and trailer. It turned into a farm van but it was easy to get them in and out and no backing worries. 

For my Nigerians, I just put a big dog kennel in my Toyota Matrix and take them where I need to go. Works out great! I also use the Matrix if I have to take a cria up to the vet or something and don't have to take mom with me.

If I put anything in the back of the pickup, I have to have help. It is just too high. I'm terrible at backing the trailer so I don't always like to take the truck and trailer if I know there is no turnaround or a VERY large area to back in.


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## 6 sheep & a llama

I have a VW eurovan - don't need a ramp for it either just  tarps to cover seats and floor.  I couldn't really see the designs on the 1st website very well.  I checked out the sheep chair but I don't get it.  What works for me is having my friend support them with her feet and legs ( after we tip them) while I trim hooves or whatever but might be nice to have something for when she is not available.  
Good luck with a ramp.  Are you putting them in a truck?


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## big brown horse

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Yes!  My truck is really pitiful with a heavy load but it should be able to transport pigs...I mean, sheep.  *You should have seen me transporting Blossom....I had to drive 30 mph and in 4 WD to make it home!  *
> Make that nice neighbor some cookies for me...so glad you don't have to use your Civic!


I remember that story well Bee.


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## lacysummer

Hi Beekissed
where in WV are you from? 
I am interested in raising sheep, possibly for milk and have not found any WV farms with sheep
you can contact me off the forum 

Lacy


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## mmemumsminifarm

I loved reading your story.  I love more that you used my favorite Bible verse.  I am a mom of 6 (blended family) I have 3 grandsons and work a full time job.  At 49 the one item on my bucket list was that I never brought my Hobby Farm dream to life.  It all changed with 6 baby Silkies and 2 Barred Rock.  Last year, I voiced a small wish to have to sheep.  Avery told me to start researching.  Living in Carolina does not give me many choices in the sheep arena.  I fell in love with a breeder in Washington State. She had two miniature Katahdin/Cheviot withers for sale.  I could tell by her web-sight that she truely loved and cared for her flock.  Abraham and Pache flew to their new home the first of June, 2009.  Avery and I secured our land against predators, built a small barn and find ourselves wanting more.  We've rescued several bunnies and while at our favorite feed store last Saturday I inquired about getting a donkey....little did I know that the Holy Spirit was working, the owner said "you need to call this guy immediately, he needs to meet you" I was alittle taken back because all I had asked was "how do I go about looking at donkeys to protect my livestock".  The next day Avery and I met Cocoa, the donkey and Chance, the sweetest miniature horse I have ever met.
You see, this young man had just lost his wife to cancer.  Chance and Cocoa were her life.  Separating was not an option.  This man begged God to help him find homes for it was all just too much for him.  Avery and I are bringing the boys home this Saturday, Dec 26, 2009.  We now have 2 1/2 acres divided into three pastures.  I know nothing about horses or donkeys...I just know that I was meant to have them.  I will keep the donkey and horse in a separate pasture until they adjust to their new home.  The can meet the sheep through the fence. How long does it take for the donkey to accept other animals?  what about the droppings from the horse and donkey...is it harmful to sheep?  Pache and Abraham are spoiled rotten and they sometimes play a little rough (not with me though) they are not trained with halters they just play in my back yard.  Do you have any advice for me.  Thank you for listening.

memum/Carol Iles


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## big brown horse

Hi Memum!!  Welcome to the herd!


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## Beekissed

Carole, your story about the donkey and mini was very touching, what a blessing that God led you there at that time...it always amazes me to see God work things out, even for His animals!

That has happened to me twice before and it is a comfort to know that God is even concerned with the happiness of His creatures, just like the verse about the sparrow.  

I don't know much about donkeys but I will tell you that many people around here have them in with their sheep and with great success.  They become very protective of "their" sheep and seem quite content to live with the flock.  I don't believe their individual internal parasites are transpecies, so it will actually be beneficial for them to graze together so as to cancel out each other's larvae cycle. 

Please post pics when you can and tell us more about your hobby farm?  So glad you came to this forum and am looking forward to sharing the experience of having sheep with you.  I'm new at this also, so am learning all I can by reading, discussing and questioning everyone I know.


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## Brody's Broodello

Hi Everyone,
I just found this posting and thought I'd jump in. A little background info for you. My family & I live on just under six acres in MD. We have been here 6 years. We currently raise Babydoll Southdown Sheep, Boer Goats,  & Poultry for eggs  as well as Exhibition. We show Silkies, Bantam Wyandottes, Standard Magpie Ducks,Sebastopol Geese, & Call Ducks. There is also one horse & seven ponies here. This past year my son started showing the goats & sheep. He is the first person to ever show a babydoll sheep at the MD state fair. Our little gang of sheep & goats help with clearing the grass & weeds. We didn't have to mow at all this year. We have about 2 acres that are wooded. After the moms & babies are weaned, the moms head out there for the rest of the summer to do clearing. By Sept you can walk anywhere out there, before that it is 6 ft high of weeds,brambles & poison ivy!We were able to save tons on gas for the mowers, and saved a little of the air, by not using them, and letting our weeds get eaten instead. Here are a few pics of our sheep in the recent snow.

















Hope you enjoy them.
April


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## freemotion

CUTE!!!!  And


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## ksalvagno

What adorable little sheep. I bet you enjoy them!


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## Brody's Broodello

Thanks, We had about 21 inches total. These were taken the first day of snow, we had about 8 to 10 inches at that time.


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## Brody's Broodello

They are so addicting. I just had the last of our sales she leave today.  I had a great month for sales. Seems like everyone wanted babydolls for Christmas. 



			
				ksalvagno said:
			
		

> What adorable little sheep. I bet you enjoy them!


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## Beekissed

April, those are adorable sheeples!  Almost makes me want to have a wooly breed...I love the Southdown faces.  Makes me think of the movie _Babe_.  

Don't you just love how carefully the sheep manicure the lawn? I could swear mine had been mown and trimmed neatly....I especially love the trimming part around my garden fencing. 

I would have loved it if my son would have taken one of my Katahdin cross ewes to the fair, even for just exhibition.  I think it's important for young farmers to be more aware of other breeds besides the Suffolks that are the dominant breed here.  

Did your boy get alot of questions about the breed and did people express interest in buying some from you after the fair?

BTW, welcome to the forum!  I can't wait to hear more about your sheeples.  I think most folks here are pretty new to raising sheep and are eager to learn any good info you might be willing to share, so feel free to enlighten us!


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## 6 sheep & a llama

Welcome to the forum April.  Did your sheep venture out into the snow when it got deeper?  We got about 19 inches fast and overnight.  I walked out to the barn in snow shoes and shoved my way back to the gate. Later one of my sheep took for the deep snow from one end of the barn around to one side.  I shoveled that path and one other and they have been staying on them.  My daughter tried to get one to go sledding but they all declined.      How do I include a photo?


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## Brody's Broodello

At the top of the page it says UPLOADS click on that and it will take you to the area for pics. After you have uploaded your pic. just click on the photo info tag and paste it to your posting.



			
				6 sheep & a llama said:
			
		

> Welcome to the forum April.  Did your sheep venture out into the snow when it got deeper?  We got about 19 inches fast and overnight.  I walked out to the barn in snow shoes and shoved my way back to the gate. Later one of my sheep took for the deep snow from one end of the barn around to one side.  I shoveled that path and one other and they have been staying on them.  My daughter tried to get one to go sledding but they all declined.      How do I include a photo?


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## Brody's Broodello

We had a great response from the public, lots of questions & interest. Though I just posted an add on Craigslist at the end of Nov for an intact ram lamb left over from this spring. He wa suppose to be sold, but the deal fell through, and it was to late to band him by then. So I really needed to move him out. So he was posted for 1/2 price. Well he sold within 2 hours, I have since sold all my extras, plus have gotten tons of calls for more. When they were really cute babies I posted & got nothin. Go figure! Anyway, here are some more pics of my son & his lamb Hannah Baatana from The Md state fair.




			
				Beekissed said:
			
		

> April, those are adorable sheeples!  Almost makes me want to have a wooly breed...I love the Southdown faces.  Makes me think of the movie _Babe_.
> 
> Don't you just love how carefully the sheep manicure the lawn? I could swear mine had been mown and trimmed neatly....I especially love the trimming part around my garden fencing.
> 
> I would have loved it if my son would have taken one of my Katahdin cross ewes to the fair, even for just exhibition.  I think it's important for young farmers to be more aware of other breeds besides the Suffolks that are the dominant breed here.
> 
> Did your boy get alot of questions about the breed and did people express interest in buying some from you after the fair?
> 
> BTW, welcome to the forum!  I can't wait to hear more about your sheeples.  I think most folks here are pretty new to raising sheep and are eager to learn any good info you might be willing to share, so feel free to enlighten us!











With other ewe lambs the same age





Cecil County Fair were he won Champion & Reserve Wool Breed Sheep. Champion was the white a Finn/Romney/Babydoll Cross & Res was the babydoll Hannah Baatana


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## Beekissed

Excellent pics and beautiful sheep and boys!  I simply love to see a sheep and kids all dressed up for the fair....all fluff and smiles.  

They look so small and dear compared to the other breeds...I can imagine how much easier they were to handle.  I bet the other kids were thinking the same thing.....where can I get my hands on a smaller sheep for next year?


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## Beekissed

Finally got to dose my sheep with fresh garlic juice and upastuerized ACV of my own making.  They were a little hesitant to eat feed with the garlic juice on it but their greedy guts got the better of them.   

I am going to monitor the results and see if there are any noticable changes.  They are already healthy and fat on a hay diet with a little BOSS now and again.  I'll be interested to see if this tonic will prove beneficial or not.


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## foxywench

omg i must have babydolls, too cute!

this is a great journal, im planning on doing a small holding one day and always heard how "delicate" sheep can be...
i dont want fragile beasts who need constant chemicals so this is a big help for me, seeing natural can be done.


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## Beekissed

I was surprised also....I was constantly told that sheep come out of the womb looking for a place to die.  These sheep of mine are very trouble free, easy keepers thus far.  When we have lambs will tell the real story, I imagine.  

I guess any livestock can have troubles, but I think it behooves(no pun intended  ) a person to make good choices in the breed of sheep and where you buy them.

Can't really expect to have a good, trouble-free flock from someone's culls or rescue animals.  Buy good stock, breed for desirable traits and cull for undesirable traits.


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## foxywench

absolutly agree, im a dog fancier and it works in that feild, breed sick dogs get sick puppies...
you have to be honest with yourself, if an animal produces undesireable stock it should no longer be used to produce, if the offspring is not up to par it should not be sold as a breeding animal ect...

im originally from the uk and i remmeber gorwing up surrounded by tough sheep out in the feilds year round, fat healthy and lovely wool...
but whe i started learning more about sheep here in the us im constantly told how "delicate" sheep are.

i think its all about breeding.


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## Beekissed

I would agree.  The herd I purchased from last year was a great flock with little health problems.  I viewed them again this winter and found that they had failed to cull for problem births, hoof problems, poor conditioning.....the herd looked way worse this year.  

Instead of getting hair sheep and enhancing their natural tendencies for being easy keepers by culling the undesirable ones, these fellas used chemical crutches to try and bolster immune systems, fed grain to try and keep up conditioning and did not plan their breeding schedule for optimal lambing conditions.  

In short, they turned a hardy cross breed herd into a delicate flock of woolies without the wool.  Out of a herd of around 100, I could only see about 20 ewes and two rams that I would have kept. 

 There was a very emaciated ewe that had lost triplets that he had bred back!  I couldn't believe it.  There were at least three ewes limping and he hadn't checked into the cause.  I know this sounds simply like poor flock management but there was more to than that.....this didn't even look like the same herd I saw last year. 

Another man visited the same farm and surprised me by expressing the same sentiment....almost exactly word for word.

With the ewes I now have, I can already tell which one will be the easiest to keep, which will stay in good condition with little help.  The next test will be lambing time.  By this time next year, I may know who I will cull, who I will keep.


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## Beekissed

Spent a little time with the Bettys today!  Love to sit in their little barn and watch them eat....I never grow tired of it.  

I've noticed that they have adapted to the taste of water with UP/ACV in it and even seem to enjoy it now.  

They have not been officially de-wormed with commercial treatments since June '09 and they seem extremely healthy and thriving well.  

I plan to overseed their pasture this spring and am thinking of a mix of white clover, red clover, red fescue, orchard grass, and lespedeza if I can find it.  I will also be broadcasting pelleted lime on the same space, as this soil is reputed to be calcium deficient.  

This will be the only overseeding I will be doing from here on out as I am hoping that rotational grazing will develop my grass over time.  

Here is a good link about good grasses for sheep:

http://www.sheep101.info/201/pasturemgt.html

I will be adding a young Dorper ram to the flock this April and my sheep will be bred for the first time at the age of 14 mo.  They are as big as they will ever be, I would imagine.  

I hope he is hardy and virile, as I plan to keep him for a few years if possible.  He is a registered animal and reputedly from good bloodlines.  The breeder is using a lot of the same methods as am I in his animal husbandry, so I was very pleased to find him.  Not many in this area are using hair sheep.


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## ksalvagno

That is great that the sheep are doing well and surviving all this weather. We like to overseed as well. Never liked the idea of using pesticides on areas that animals are on and grazing. It takes longer but works well in the end.

We are also using the animal manure and heavily manuring areas that we have fenced off. We want to see if we can get away from commercial fertilizer too. I know there is organic fertilizer but we would like to see if the animal manure will take care of the  things.

Good luck with the male. I would think it would be much easier to raise hair sheep than wool sheep since you don't have to worry about shearing. I know it can be hard to find a shearer.


----------



## Beekissed

Around here you have to have at least 25 head for them to come out and you have to pay a $40 fee for just the visit and then $2-$3 a head for the shearing.  Buying clippers for just a few sheep isn't financially feasible either, so hair sheep seemed like the way to go.

Also chose the hair breeds for their hardiness and versatility of breeding times.  

Around here most folks have the woolies and all the lambs are born during Jan/February.....the coldest, wettest months of all!  Then one gets to hear about everyone having lamb deaths, kitchens full of bottle lambs, etc.  They also are feeding a lot of grain to their sheep during this time, which is pretty expensive.  

These are the things I wish to avoid as a shepherd.  I want a grass fed herd, which means that flushing needs to happen when the grass is at its best.  Early spring is optimal time for me to have lambs, although I want to try a fall lambing this year as an experiment.  

Also, my ewes are coming out of fall as fat as ticks on the fall fescue here.  This gets them in the right condition for a Dec. breeding schedule.  

I don't usually have to start supplementing with hay until around Thanksgiving here and I expect that, with rotational grazing and sewing fall cover crops in my gardens, this will be even later this next year.  

I will be planting kale and turnips as a fall crop where my corn grows and letting them into that space right before breeding in December.  I'll also be feeding some pumpkins, squash and mangels about this time as well.  

The winter wheat and oats that I sow in my other garden will be just about right to fatten my Sept. lambs before they go to market.


----------



## freemotion

Hi, Bee! 

I did the manure-spreading thing, and it is working great, ks!  I also spread my wood ashes all winter long, and put some into the compost pile, too, so they will be spread with the compost.

I am also working on adding native plants to my pasture, by transplanting some and fencing them off until established, and by gathering seeds and broadcasting them by hand.  It is a very different way of thinking from my horse-owning years....I was working very hard to create a lovely, grassy horse pasture, and now I am importing "weeds!"


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## Royd Wood

Beekissed 
Many Thanks for this

Here is a good link about good grasses for sheep:

http://www.sheep101.info/201/pasturemgt.html

Great link and glad your sheep journal re-surfaced for us (new members) 
My lambing season is now over and our 4 Romney mums provided us with 1 ram for the freezer and 6 baby ewes including triplet girls. So if all goes well we will have 10 mums next year. My Galloway cows are next to calve and hoping that runs smooth


----------



## Beekissed

Great minds think alike, Niagara!     If you'll look a few posts up I had posted the same link about pastures!     Us sheeple people are just that way.....always looking for better, more suculent foods for our gals.

Congrats on your lambs!  I was at my sister's today and her bottle lambs were the most precious thing I've ever seen!  Heck...I'd be tempted to snatch one from it's mama just to get my own little stuffed animal running at my heels, yelling for "Maaaaaa!"    Lambs are the picture of sweet innocence, aren't they?  


Ah, Free!!  Weeds are like alfalfa to your four footed friends, aren't they?    To my surprise, my sheeple like some great browse as well and keep my fencelines pristine.  Looks like I have a very great gardener keeping my lawns cut.  

I'm going to spread my poultry deep litter on my lawn with a large push seeder this year that will broadcast it along with my grass seed and some pelleted lime.  This will be the only year I overseed and then I expect the rotational grazing to start improving my pasture naturally.


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## Beekissed

I am very excited about adding a ram to my flock this year.  I will be going to take a look at the prospective ram lambs pretty soon.  I know this guy will probably think I'm nuts~no pun intended~but I plan to look this ram over pretty thoroughly.  I will be using this article as a guide to what to look for in a ram:



> *Testicles*
> The ram's testicles should be palpated to determine that they are well-developed and normal. They should be firm, evenly sized, and move freely within the scrotum. Both the testicles and epididymitis should be free from lumps. A rams with a smaller than average scrotal circumference should not be selected for breeding.
> 
> Though scrotal size varies by breed, body condition, and season, ram lambs to be used for breeding should have a scrotal size of at least 30 centimeters; mature rams, 32 centimeters. Scrotal size affects a ram's semen output. There are also correlations between a ram's scrotal size and the reproductive performance of his daughters.


I'm sure this farmer will be thinking I am one sick ticket when I get in that pen and check this ram's scrotum and penis.  Another part of this article states that one should check the penis for any defect or disease process that may prevent proper breeding.

You can bet, if I am paying $300 for an animal, I'm going to be looking it over pretty good!  

I built a temporary ram pen today from stock panels and existing perimeter fencing and gates.  I will hold him there for a few days while I give him some UP/ACV in his water.  

I will be using a collar and bell on my ram, unlike with my ladies.  As a ram, he seems to be the most likely to want to escape the confines of his fencing, so I want to be able to find him easily or at least have a reflective collar in case he heads for the road.  The bell will come in handy at night if something is running my flock....the noise just might alert me to danger.


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I am very excited about adding a ram to my flock this year.  I will be going to take a look at the prospective ram lambs pretty soon.  I know this guy will probably think I'm nuts~no pun intended~but I plan to look this ram over pretty thoroughly.  I will be using this article as a guide to what to look for in a ram:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Testicles*
> The ram's testicles should be palpated to determine that they are well-developed and normal. They should be firm, evenly sized, and move freely within the scrotum. Both the testicles and epididymitis should be free from lumps. A rams with a smaller than average scrotal circumference should not be selected for breeding.
> 
> Though scrotal size varies by breed, body condition, and season, ram lambs to be used for breeding should have a scrotal size of at least 30 centimeters; mature rams, 32 centimeters. Scrotal size affects a ram's semen output. There are also correlations between a ram's scrotal size and the reproductive performance of his daughters.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure this farmer will be thinking I am one sick ticket when I get in that pen and check this ram's scrotum and penis.  Another part of this article states that one should check the penis for any defect or disease process that may prevent proper breeding.
> 
> You can bet, if I am paying $300 for an animal, I'm going to be looking it over pretty good!
> 
> I built a temporary ram pen today from stock panels and existing perimeter fencing and gates.  I will hold him there for a few days while I give him some UP/ACV in his water.
> 
> I will be using a collar and bell on my ram, unlike with my ladies.  As a ram, he seems to be the most likely to want to escape the confines of his fencing, so I want to be able to find him easily or at least have a reflective collar in case he heads for the road.  The bell will come in handy at night if something is running my flock....the noise just might alert me to danger.
Click to expand...

No good breeder should bat an eye over you giving a ram a thorough checking.


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## Royd Wood

I'm sure this farmer will be thinking I am one sick ticket when I get in that pen and check this ram's scrotum and penis.   

My Sheep Journal The bettys of Sweetwater is a must read thread - Many Thanks


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## Beekissed

Sooooooo glad you are amused!     I, on the other hand, am going to feel like a real perv doing this in front of a farmer guy..... 

He called last night and also wants to throw a 9 mo. old, neutered male registered Great Pyr dog in the deal....for free!  Nice pup that stays with the sheep but his female doesn't get along with it and has hurt him a time or two.  

Now...how to get *my* dogs to like him?  :/    My female is getting some real age on her and I don't like to have a single dog on the place...too lonely and makes for a bored dog.  So, I may consider getting this dog if he seems well socialized.  

Aggie, that's what I was thinking....he shouldn't mind me being thorough if he has good stock.  If not and he has something to hide, I should be able to tell by his reaction to  my ram exam....hey!  I like that~Ram Exam!


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## ksalvagno

Good luck with that ram and dog. Sounds like it could be a good thing. Hopefully.


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## freemotion

I will definitely be looking at my next buck's family jewels.  My current guy didn't get anyone preggers on the first try, and one doe was VERY receptive.  He just was not very....bucky.  I thought his plumbing was a bit on the small side.  Size does matter....


----------



## Beekissed

Hey, free!    Can you post a pic of your scythe-cut hay over on the thread about overseeding pastures?  Someone interested!

I didn't realize just how much poop my girls generated in their winter pen until the snow melted off.  The ground looks like its covered with brown M&Ms!!!!   

I am SO getting a good corn and pumpkin crop out of that soil this year!!!!     :bun  

The girls have spring fever and are stotting all over the pen and butting heads....spring is in the air, thank the good Lord above!   

Free, here is another tidbit I hadn't considered:



> A ram is "half the flock." His genetics will be spread over many more offspring than a ewe. Rams will be the primary means by which genetic imiprovement will be made in a flock. If the ram's daughters will be retained in the flock for breeding purposes, he *should be born as a twin or triplet* and/or come from a productive ewe or line. His dam should be one of the most productive members of the flock. Reproduction should always be maximized relative to the production environment. Multiple births may not be advisable in all production environments.


Now, I hadn't thought about it much but it makes perfect sense to me to buy a ram from a twinner.  Now, how to get a breeder to be honest about this kind of thing?    Ask to see his books?


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## Beekissed

Let the Bettys out of their winter pen for the first time today and they were ecstatic....I'll never get them to go back there now!  

Will wait awhile before setting up the rotational system for their grazing.  I hope to purchase another ewe and a ram this month to go with them and am hoping that the competition for food from the added sheep will make them clean up their paddocks better than last year.  

Anyone else doing intensive rotational grazing with their sheep or goats this year?  It would be interesting to document pasture/grass growth and changes with a rotational system.


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## freemotion

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Hey, free!    Can you post a pic of your scythe-cut hay over on the thread about overseeding pastures?  Someone interested!
> 
> Free, here is another tidbit I hadn't considered:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A ram is "half the flock." His genetics will be spread over many more offspring than a ewe. Rams will be the primary means by which genetic imiprovement will be made in a flock. If the ram's daughters will be retained in the flock for breeding purposes, he *should be born as a twin or triplet* and/or come from a productive ewe or line. His dam should be one of the most productive members of the flock. Reproduction should always be maximized relative to the production environment. Multiple births may not be advisable in all production environments.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, I hadn't thought about it much but it makes perfect sense to me to buy a ram from a twinner.  Now, how to get a breeder to be honest about this kind of thing?    Ask to see his books?
Click to expand...

Hey, Bee, I must've been super busy on this day as I missed this post completely!

I regret that I did not take pictures of the hay or of me scything.  I hope to get dh to take some this summer.  Last summer was so awful that I ran out to scythe for an hour here and a half hour there, then brought the hay in at a dead run the next day, stuffing it in my hay storage area, huffing and puffing and almost cussing!   This coming year HAS to be better....please?

Makes sense about the twin ram thing.  My buckling was a twin....he was living with his twin brother when I first saw him.  I see no reason for the breeder to lie unless he is down to a couple of rams or bucklings and just wants to tell you what you want to hear to get you to drive off with one at a good price.  If a producer has a number of ewes or does....well, then they have far too many ram lambs or bucklings.  No reason for dishonesty.  But there is my naivity showing through yet again...

I won't likely be cross-fencing this year, but who knows?  I am using up the last of my free fencing materials to make a pasture for the pigs and to fence the goats and chickens out of my expanding gardens, two of which are within my pasture.  I will be keeping an eye out for good deals on fencing, so who knows....it is not an urgent issue for me right now, as with my trusty scythe...I am the cow! 

Although, I have dreams of raising a calf for beef, maybe a free or very cheap dairy bull calf or two.  I would need to really maximize my pasture in order to do that.


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## aggieterpkatie

I went ahead and set up a little sacrifice area for my girls.  I have a small amount of pasture, so I'm planning on rotating pretty intensely to preserve the pasture.  I also set up a paddock in the back yard for them because there's a good bit of grass out there.  

I just wanted to throw my $.02 about the ram being a twin/trip.  IMO, it's more important to have ewes that are a twin or triplet.  Think about the rams,  the sperm count in one breeding is super high.  How many embryos the ewe ends up with is totally dependent on her!  However many eggs she releases usually determines how many lambs you'll end up with.  That's my thought process, for what it's worth.


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## Beekissed

Thanks, Free!   This guy with the ram I am going to look at has sold all his other ram lambs and only has one left.  From what he let slip, this ram is in poor condition and he was going to "work" on that.  I'm not sure I want to buy a ram lamb that comes out of winter in that poor of condition!   

I know that all animals lose some condition during the winter months...that is supposed to happen to a certain degree.  But "poorly"??  I've fed hay all winter and my gals look great.  This guy supplements with grain and he has a young ram that is poorly...this makes me worry.  Unfortunately, there are only 4 breeders in the whole state that have Dorpers.  

Aggie, I don't know much about genetics, but what you say makes sense.  I've also read that twinning in sheep can depend on nutritional status at the time of breeding, thus the advice to flush during this time.  

I've also seen the most spavined sheep put out triplets and breed right back for three more!  When you see something like that, you have to wonder if multiple births are purely genetic?  If so, I would imagine that it would be helpful if both parents have twinning in their bloodlines?  Not sure at this point but will be looking into it further.  If I find anything I will post the link on here.


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## Beekissed

I checked out the ram lamb and won't be buying any animals off that farm...for sure!   

 His older ram was walking on his knees because his hooves were like elf shoes.

He had several sheep of various ages that were missing huge patches of hair down to the skin and some had sores.  He could not tell me why...acted like he had no clue!  I'm thinking mites, lice or even scrapie...who knows?   

He had several that looked in poor condition and some that were so fat they had trouble walking short distances without panting.  He said he had been feeding this flock of 25 sheep a 50lb. bag of grain/feed per day.  

The ram lamb had small horns, one of which was curved into his head and needed cut off.  He had no record of this ram at all...couldn't tell me much about his dam or sire.  

He had a few horses there and at least one was anemic and all were listless and dull looking.  

The ram search continues!  :/


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I checked out the ram lamb and won't be buying any animals off that farm...for sure!
> 
> His older ram was walking on his knees because his hooves were like elf shoes.
> 
> He had several sheep of various ages that were missing huge patches of hair down to the skin and some had sores.  He could not tell me why...acted like he had no clue!  I'm thinking mites, lice or even scrapie...who knows?
> 
> He had several that looked in poor condition and some that were so fat they had trouble walking short distances without panting.  He said he had been feeding this flock of 25 sheep a 50lb. bag of grain/feed per day.
> 
> The ram lamb had small horns, one of which was curved into his head and needed cut off.  He had no record of this ram at all...couldn't tell me much about his dam or sire.
> 
> He had a few horses there and at least one was anemic and all were listless and dull looking.
> 
> The ram search continues!  :/


Did you report him to animal control?  Sounds as though a few of his animals are in desperate need of help (the ram, especially).


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## Beekissed

No, I didn't.  I'm not one to rush into getting folks into trouble over a few animals....I think he has good intentions but you know what they say about those.  :/ 

 I think he very quickly surmised that I was appalled about the state of his sheep and I think he will be making some changes as soon as possible....if a single woman can spot the mistakes he is making, he will never be able to sell any sheep to a more experienced shepherd.  He could tell that I was not a bit pleased with his flock...I couldn't wait to get away from there! 

For the most part, I think he is a nice fellow...just not too bright about animals.  He also had a young GP penned up so that a local vet could collect him and give him a good home.  The pen was way too tiny for the huge dog within and he looked miserable.  Not sure how long he planned to keep him there and it didn't look like he had been there long, but if the vet gets a look at him and those other animals, maybe she will give him some good advice.


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> No, I didn't.  I'm not one to rush into getting folks into trouble over a few animals....I think he has good intentions but you know what they say about those.  :/


Well, that's your choice. I'd be more concerned with the ram that's hooves are so overgrown he's walking on his knees than the darn farmer's feelings. :/


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## jhm47

Betcha that ram has footrot.  Sheep that walk on their knees often have overgrown hooves.  Footrot in sheep is a contagious disease.


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## Beekissed

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Beekissed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I didn't.  I'm not one to rush into getting folks into trouble over a few animals....I think he has good intentions but you know what they say about those.  :/
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's your choice. I'd be more concerned with the ram that's hooves are so overgrown he's walking on his knees than the darn farmer's feelings. :/
Click to expand...

I did offer to bring my son back and help him trim them!  How's that?    He had explained that he is currently treating for a herniated disc, so he is unable to trim the ram's hooves right now. 

 As for the mites/lice/who knows?  I would chalk that up to pure inexperience but I did suggest that he let the vet that was coming to pick up the dog take a look at those ewes.  I'm hoping she can put him on the right track.


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## Royd Wood

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Betcha that ram has footrot.  Sheep that walk on their knees often have overgrown hooves.  Footrot in sheep is a contagious disease.


Thanks for that jhm I didn't know footrot was contageous. One of the reasons I chose to have Romney sheep is their resistance to footrot as we are on wetlands here.

Animal welfare is a big prob down the road here and has been reported - Its still a big prob and not sure whats been done if anything. maybe a final warning ????


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## jhm47

There is a host if information on footrot in sheep if you care to do a google search.  Lots of information on diagnosis, treatment, and eradication.  It definitely is a disease that you would not want to introduce into your flock.  

There is a farmer near here who fought footrot in his flock for years, and finally had to go out of the business.  His sheep walked around on their knees all the time.  They smell bad too, when they are infected.


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## Beekissed

> *Footrot*Footrot is one of the most economically devastating diseases in the sheep industry. It is caused by the interaction of two anaerobic bacteria: Bacteroides nodosus, which can only live in the animal's hoof; and Fusobacterium necrophorum, which is a normal inhabitant of soil and sheep manure.
> 
> Lameness in one or more feet is the most common symptom of footrot, though not all lame sheep have footrot. Footrot has a characteristic foul odor. Footrot can be controlled and/or eradicated by a combination of hoof trimming, vaccination, foot bathing and soaking and culling. Zinc sulfate is considered to be the most effective foot rot treatment. Footrot is highly contagious.
> 
> *Foot Scald *(_benign footrot and ovine interdigital dermatitis_)
> Foot scald causes the tissues between the sheep's toes become blanched or white, or red and swelled. It is caused by a soil bacteria that is present in most environments and manifests itself during wet conditions. It is easier to treat than foot rot. Placing sheep in a dry area away from mud may clear the condition. Individual animals can be treated with Koppertox. Groups of animals may be treated with a zinc sulfate foot bath.


This fella's ram didn't look to have any rot or disease....just overgrown hooves.  I didn't see or smell anything different than just long, overgrown hooves.  Nice dry pastures and all.


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## Beekissed

Well, folks....I trimmed my first sheep hooves tonight!    It was easy and I was very impressed with how well my gals took being messed with this time.

There is just something about sheep that I find to admire just about every day.....this is the first time these girls were turned up on their ends and subdued, totally helpless, in this manner.  They acted like they had done this every day, that they were very trusting of what we were doing and they didn't act flighty or angry when we were done!  I was amazed!  

I also found out something interesting about the bottom of a sheep...did you know they have very big glands on either side of their udder, from which a brownish liquid seeps?  I assume it has something to do with their heat cycle but I've never seen this on an animal before.  Deer have them on the inside of their hocks and on their heads....none by their udders.  

It did not have a foul smell....it was just a little crusty.

I also checked peri-orbital membranes and they seemed a healthy pink, as well as did their gums.  I bolused with pure, fresh-squeezed garlic juice, UP/ACV and water for a probiotic, deworming tonic also.  

These gals have had no commercial de-worming agents since 3 mo. after they were born, given by the original farmer.  They are now 14 mo. old.....I find this very satisfactory and I hope their good health continues.  

I have used a combination of Shaklees soap, garlic, pumpkin seeds for their de-worming program this year.  I've used the ACV for a probiotics boost and I've used sea kelp/salt for their minerals in the warm months and a regular mineral block in the winter. 

No grains except for treats on occasion...just to let them know who has the candy!     Other than that, they have been grass-fed and had hay for winter feed.

Anyone else trying a more natural approach to their animal husbandry?  Successful?  What are you trying?


----------



## Beekissed

So....went shopping for a ram today and found one to borrow and one to eventually buy when he matures. 

The one I am borrowing is a Katahdin by the name of Big Moe and he is the sweetest thing!  Nice conformation, good disposition, good wool shedding, good health.  All his lambs are healthy, big and many are twins.  

The ram lamb I have my eye on is half white Dorper and half Katahdin.  He is a sturdy twin, black with white speckles and spots on his face and a few on his body.  Adorable!!!!  

I can't wait to get Big Moe on Friday and am hoping that my gals will settle down their silly ways once they are bred.  I wouldn't mind having Big Moe for keeps but I know my farmer friend would not part with him.


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## freemotion

Woohoo!  A boyfriend for the Bettys!


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## Beekissed

Oh, free....do they _need_ it!!!   I can't wait to see how they react to him!  

I had been petting him and then came home to visit with the Bettys.....Black Betty kept licking my hands and licking her lips like she could _taste_ him!    I'd never seen her lick my hands like that, even with treat giving.  

Oh, yeah....the girls are ready to settle down to the pitter patter of little hooves.


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## freemotion

Oh, snuggly baby lambies!!!  (Then dinner.....  )


----------



## Beekissed

Well, Big Moe came to Sweetwater Farm on Friday night.  After many head-butting sessions between him and Ugly Betty, things have settled down.  

The girls aren't in heat right now but I'm sure they will now that Moe is here to tease them.  He is like a big puppy dog and follows me around right along with the Bettys, waiting for a treat.  

He makes me nervous following me that closely, so I'm always watching him.  I'm sure he is more or less a nice ram, but put a human between him and a feed bucket and I'm sure he can be quite a problem.  

The dogs are watching him closely and Lucy lines him out if he gets too nasty to the girls in their sparring sessions.  

The poor guy hadn't been out on grass yet this year and his owner said he didn't mind if he went on full grass...said he didn't worry about such things as bloating and grass tetany with his sheep.  He must know what he is talking about because that big ram hasn't had his nose out of rich, green grass since he came here!!! I've never seen such a hungry sheep in my life!      He is voracious!!!  

Can't wait until those lambs start popping out!  Big Moe's lambs are all twins or triplets, all have a lot of brown/red markings on them and are all sturdy, fat lambs.  I can't wait to see what comes from a white/red roan ram and black/white ewes.


----------



## Beekissed

Since I have no way of knowing, without a breeding harness, if Big Moe has performed his task of breeding, I have been looking for obvious signs of some sort.....like he and the Bettys lounging around, smoking cigs or something.....   

Anyhoo, I noticed the Betty's tail heads were very mussed today and was wondering if this would be an indication of some breeding activity going on....anyone know if this could be so?  

I haven't seen him acting in the typical, lip-curling behaviour of rams around ewes in heat, so I'm wondering if I'm just being hopefully optimistic on this point?


----------



## freemotion

My does backsides were rather....er....sticky....but my buckling needed a GPS for the first few attempt, remember?


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## Beekissed

Yes!    This guy is an old hand....er...ram...at breeding, so I'm sure he can hit the mark....and their tails did look a little more than mussed.  They did look a little sticky come to think of it......  

I am so hoping......   

You know?  I am really enjoying this ram experience and I hope my young ram will be this sweet.  Big Moe is just a big ol' baby!  He holds real still and closes his eyes while I pick the wool he is shedding....must feel good to him.  

There is NO WAY the Bettys would hold still or even let me get hold of their wool in any way...even after all this time.


----------



## FarmerDenise

I am enjoying this blog tremendously. I figure if for some reason my goats don't work out for me, I might still get sheep. Or I might get sheep sometime in the future regardless. 
Right now I am enjoying my little goats. I plan on raising them as naturally as possible. I am glad the vet didn't raise an eyebrow, when I said I didn't want to immunize for anything, unless it was absolutely neccessary.
I figure, since I got these goats from a responsible farmer and we have not had any ruminants on this property for nearly 50 years at least, we shouldn't have anything nasty here that I need to concern myself with. 
The vet suggested I take a fecal sample once a year and have it checked, just to make sure, and a tetanus shot one month before delivery of kids to pass  the antibodies on to the babies.

Many people in my area are into alternative lifestyles, so raising animals and children naturally is fairly well accepted.


----------



## Beekissed

Denise, I haven't checked with my vet about the price of a fecal but I am curious about where my gals stand....just to get an idea.  The farmer who sold them to me said, since I've never had sheep on the place that it's not likely they will get a worm problem.

I am so glad you got goats....yes, even goats!    The smaller ruminants are just the right size for us women to manage and the start up costs are less than with cattle.  

As for vaccines and tags, the farmer where I buy says I can sell my lambs with his and they wouldn't need to be tagged or have certain vaccines.  This buyer sells them in lots, so they don't require tags and vaccines...I think they give each sheep vaccines at the market wether they have had them or not.  

I'm glad I can sell that way if I wish....less hassle.  

I've been reading up about short scrotuming male lambs and I'm thinking I would like to try this.  Have you ever heard of this practice?


----------



## Beekissed

I cannot describe the beauty of this day!  But...I'll try.....  

The grass is so deep green and lush right now that all the colors of the animals are in sharp relief against the lawn and orchard.  The apple trees are in bloom and every breeze gives a shower of white and pink twirling onto glossy chickens and happy sheep.  

It was very cool today and clear as a bell....the sheep really loved this weather and were in constant motion, leaping, running and playing.  I would venture to say that these sheep are in the peak of health and vigor right now, bright-eyed and bushy tailed~literally!   

I'm taking some pics tomorrow of all the spring colors and sights on this land....my heart just swelled with joy all day as I worked on the garden fencing and did odd jobs around the place.  Pure bliss, and I thank God for the opportunity to be here and be doing what I am doing.


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## Beekissed

This is a pic of the Bettys and our visiting loaner ram, Big Moe, yesterday.  We really love having him here, he is a real hoot and a big ol' baby!  They are currently shedding off some of their winter wool/hair.


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## FarmerDenise

Awww. 
It looks weird to me though, our trees have leaves on them already 
But it does look very pretty and serene.


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## freemotion

I see leaves in the upper right hand corner of that picture!!!!  Or is that goat food?


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## Beekissed

We are just starting to leaf out...and Ugly Betty is trimming up all the lower limbs of the apple trees.  I swear, if I get a prolapsed ewe it will be her!   

Here is the orchard right now....


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## Iceblink

Bee - do yours get all itchy and cranky during shedding? My Portia is panting and loves to be scratched around the 'edges.' I can gently pull wool out, and she usually likes it, but over all, she seems hot and miserable. Spring came too fast here.


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## Beekissed

Mine don't seem too cranky but they are loosening up my newly installed fencing by rubbing their entire bodies on it, trying to shed some wool!   

I'm going to catch them and divest them of a lot of it as soon as I can.  I've pulled out snatches of it as they walk by and it comes out easily with a mild tug.  Now, the ram will let me pull it out and he closes his eyes and holds real still.  Must feel good to him!  

We are having some real cool spring so far, so my girls aren't suffering from the heat right now....I'm sure they would be cranky if they were!   

I can't wait to see them all sleek and skinny!


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## freemotion

Bee, are you saving that wool for any projects?


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## Beekissed

I hadn't thought about it....it's not really a good quality wool/hair and it's pretty dirty.  I'd have to wash it and eliminate all the coarse hair and retain the actual wool to use it, I would imagine.  

I do know that the local birds are having a field day gathering nesting materials!!  So funny to watch the robins flying away with clumps almost as big as they are.  

For right now, I'm depositing it in my garden to be tilled in and composted. 

What do you do with yours?


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## freemotion

I want to spin it.  (Got some merino!)  I wanted to make a quilt, but the lady who gave me the merino said it is better for spinning, and meat sheep wool is better for quilts.  She said that what I had would felt over time, just from the movement of the blanket on the bed, and that the coarser meat sheep wool would stay fluffy for years.  I thought of your sheep.

You won't need to preserve the lanolin in it if you are not spinning it, so you could just wait until they are done shedding, saving it up in a bucket and picking out the hay and such as you  go.  Then fill another bucket with HOT water and a squirt of shampoo or good dish soap and put the wool in to soak.  Gently press the water through the wool, and transfer it to a pail of clean water, repeating until it is clean.  

I'd do this every spring if I had your sheep (in theory....I don't know how much trouble it really is!) and store up the cleaned wool in pillow cases or clean grain sacks until I had enough.


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## Beekissed

That is great info, free!  I'll have to think about that.  We put them all in the headgates last night and plucked tons of wool off them and still didn't get down to the sheep!   

They look much more comfortable today and are not so busy rubbing their butts on everything.  This will be the first year Black Betty has shed, so her outer wool is two springs old....she is so glossy and black under that old brown coat!  I couldn't get over how good a sheen she had on her fur after seeing her walk around in that dusty brown looking carpet all year.  

I can gather all that up and put it in a pillow case for washing in the machine...think it would come clean this way?  

I'm having a much harder time getting Nellie's fleece cleaned up from all the hay and other roughage in it....her fleece is so soft and long that everything is imbedded in the fibers.  I'm thinking of just washing hers in a pillow case also and then start carding...and removing any sticks and hay stubble then.


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## freemotion

I think if you stuck it in the washer, even in a pillow case, it would come out as a big, hard ball of felt that would be impossible to card.  You really have to soak it gently and move it in the water gently.  I was told not to even run the water into the pail while the wool was in the pail, as the movement of the water could felt it!  So I just gently press the mass of wool down through the water a couple of times, then gently lift it up and gently place it in a pail of clean water...or more soapy water.  How many times did I just type "gently???" 

I also discovered that a lot of the hay comes out when you card.  Also, that it is best just to toss the worst stuff in the trash!


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## Beekissed

Even more good info....thanks!!    I'll remember that!  My sheep's wool wouldn't be worth it, even.  It is short, coarse and intermingled with coarse hairs.  

I'll concentrate on Nellie's beautiful fleece instead.


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## freemotion

I hear ya!  Why go through all that effort when you can get a lovely fleece for free?  I'm gonna contact the sheep shearer whose son bought my buck and see if I can get a few fleeces that would be appropriate for quilt-stuffing.  Now I have that bug in my head, I have to do it!


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## Beekissed

My sheeples look so funny while they are shedding out....like sheep hobos!  And, my, have they lost weight with all this running and leaping and chasing they have been doing!  Every morning and evening, it is running full speed and playing with the ram.  Oh, young love!!!   

Ol' Big Moe is losing weight too....previously he had only bred ewes who were penned up in a large barn and couldn't really get away from him.   

I can almost feel their good, high spirits!  Deep, lush grass, cool spring weather, a big ol' handsome mansheep, sweet water, good minerals and good fun in the sun.....


----------



## Beekissed

Time to update the sheep journal.  The sheep are now in a rotational grazing paddock in my orchard and, after schooling the ram, are settling down to the electric fencing.  

My sheep were tending to graze mostly in the lower portion of my total pasture area...overgrazing the things they like best and leaving clumps of things they didn't.  This left my orchard with some grass that is too high..really past being delectable at this point.  I am moving them through there and will mow down the grass that has gone to seed and the thistles that are starting after they have grazed it over.

Funny thing...they are ignoring the lush clover in favor of other grasses.  I would think sheep would love clover.  

This intensive grazing system should be better for them and for my pasture, giving the good grasses a rest and time to recover.  We aren't getting enough rain this spring, so the grass isn't doing as well as it normally does.  Its still nice and thick, green and lush, but not growing as quickly as usual at this time of the year.  

I must remember to move their mineral feeder(a 5 gal. jug converted to a mineral feeder) along with their grazing rotation.  I am currently feeding salt and kelp as a mineral supplement.  

The visiting ram's stay is nearly over and I believe he has accomplished his task.  I will be replacing him with a ram lamb that will mature by this summer.  The new ram is a Dorper/Katahdin cross and my girls are ST. Croix/Katahdin cross...this should make for some good offspring.  

The girls have nearly shed off but still have poodle clumps...I'm hoping they will shed more thoroughly when things warm up around here....I had to build a fire in the stove tonight!

The girls are starting to add some weight back, even no longer than they have been in the rotation(4 days)....no room to run and run the weight off each evening while playing with the dog!  

Anyone else using intensive (small paddock) rotational grazing systems for their sheep this year?   

I will post a pic of the new ram after he arrives and when I can....he is very pretty!


----------



## big brown horse

Good Morning Bee and Happy Mother's Day!

I am going to be using a rotational grazing system as soon as I get more electric fencing.  I'll let you know how it is working out.

-Sally


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## Beekissed

Hey, Sally!  Back at ya!  Yes, please let me know what you think about it.  I know its too soon to see the improvement in the pasture with this system but I am really enjoying the sheep being confined to one area right now.  I have so much work to do in the yard and it is hard to do with sheep trampling you.

It also looks more professional to see them in their paddocks...like I'm really serious about this whole sheep farming!


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## aggieterpkatie

I've been using small paddocks to rotate my sheep/goats.  I find that when I make the paddock too large they tend to overgraze one area and leave the other.  If I make it smaller, they're really forced to eat the entire area more evenly.  It's working really well for me using just 1 strand of electric tape to keep them in.  The ram lamb has been getting out, but he sticks right by the paddock, so it's not a big deal to me.  

I've been mowing after the sheep leave an area so I can even it out and knock down anything they didn't eat.  So far we're having a hard time keeping up with the grass!


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## Beekissed

Aggie, I've noticed the same thing...and we mowed down the left overs today.  I really feel that I need at least four sheep to keep up with the grass here...but then I get to thinking, what about in the dry season?  Will there be enough?  

Then I remember that those 3 girls will have 2-3 lambs each and those lambs have to finish off on grass also, so next spring I may not have enough grass for 9-10 sheep!  

I guess a person will never know until they try it out, huh?  I just don't want to get an extra ewe and find out the one will have to go.


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Aggie, I've noticed the same thing...and we mowed down the left overs today.  I really feel that I need at least four sheep to keep up with the grass here...but then I get to thinking, what about in the dry season?  Will there be enough?
> 
> Then I remember that those 3 girls will have 2-3 lambs each and those lambs have to finish off on grass also, so next spring I may not have enough grass for 9-10 sheep!
> 
> I guess a person will never know until they try it out, huh?  I just don't want to get an extra ewe and find out the one will have to go.


Yeah, you always want to base your stocking numbers on the amount of pasture available in the middle of the summer when its' hot and droughty and slow growing.  It's better to have too much grass in the spring than not enough in the summer!


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## goodhors

Well following your year in sheep has been interesting!  Could not stop reading all the postings!  Thank you for the helpful links.  

The vinegar one is extremely thought provoking, might give it a try.  I certainly will share it with the 4-H Leader, she likes to hear about simple methods that work.  The writer is also in MI, so could be equally helpful to us here.

We do a couple purchased market lambs for 4-H each year, no lambing of our own.  I try to keep it as natural as possible, though they come vaccinated.  They are pastured daily, get some supplemental lamb feed pellets with cracked corn and oats, as their grain.  They are funny to watch, seem to really enjoy themselves outside.  Still do very well gaining enough to be a good market weight for fair, usually 130-140 pounds.  Judges don't like them heavy, and since daughter walks them daily, the weight is not only fat.  Judges want a muscular sheep, do the hands-on feel when evaluating the animals.  All sheep in MI must be scapies tagged, since we had a scapies herd imported a few years ago.  The scapies animals were all put down, but now the laws are in effect, so tagging is done by the breeders.  

Our lambs are Suffolks, which we really have had no problems with while we own them.  Can't win the market classes with sheep that are not black legged/faced, white wooled.  We had crossbred sheep, Dorset/mixed, with one snow white, the other coal black our first year in 4-H.  Judge said Daughter did a good job showing with her 4th, but he just HATED wrinkly sheep because they are hard to judge, and lambs run small in weight compared to desired 130 pound average market lamb.  

We knew the crosses would be small, they are as big as they will get at 100-110 pounds, after that is all fat gain.  Daughter was also small, so they were just fine for her.   She didn't get upset, we had warned her about "color" bias before the Fair.  Judge took the time to compliment HER on showing skills.  She still got $2 the pound for lambs at the auction!  However we have gotten the "acceptable" breeds and look for her market lambs since then.

Just a couple questions after reading your experiences.  Have you gotten the fecals done, to see how your sheep are doing with any worm load?  

Second was to ask if you had yet done the grass overseeding?  From personal experience with my horses, fescues are not good for animals carrying babies.  Reading the grass and forage page on sheep, clover causes bloat, and sheep can have the fescue problems but not like horses and cattle do.

I do some seeding in my horse pastures, but not really volume overseeding anymore.  I score the ground with a small disc to create cuts to get packed dirt open to the air, have places for seed to fall into and better take root.  I take the "more work" method and use a drop seeder set for light seeding, and walk the areas that need improvement.  After seeding I may put straw over the seed on bare spots or drag the grassy areas with my chain harrow, closing up the dirt cuts and covering seed from the birds.

I use what is sold as a horse pasture mix here, contains no fescues, small amounts of clover, no alsike (red) clover.  We have a foal now and again, so I want very little chance of fescue problems to occur in my pasture and paddocks.  Even the endophyte-free fescues seldom stay that way long, with cross pollination from other folks fields and lawns.  This mix runs about $50 for 25 pounds, cheaper than the Mare and Foal mix grass seed of $90 for 25 pounds!  Grass seed is like gold dust to me, so I want excellent stuff at prices I can afford, good germination rates.  In my Master Garden class, we were STRONGLY advised to buy our grass seed locally, it is developed for OUR area soils and temps.  Buying brand names perfected for other locales may be wasting our money on seeds that won't do well here.

You have to read seed bag labels, to know EXACTLY what you are getting in a bag.  Cheap seed usually is filled with cheap fescues and annual grasses.  Michigan State is huge on grass development in the Ag Dept, so the speaker was really good from lawns to pastures, how best to get them looking and working for us in the class.

You may already know all this, but just touching on it in case you haven't had the time to study up on grasses yet.  I got my pasture seed from the local Elevator, who offers great quality seed in various mixes.  He got the seed to the elevator for me within a day.  I was in despair after reading labels at the TSC store and box store Garden departments.  ALL seeds available were full of fescue and annual grass seed, NOT what I wanted to plant and not that cheap either!

We spread bedding from the horses on the pastures daily.  We usually use a sawdust or wood fiber bedding, which takes some time to break down.  I do use commercial fertilizers, and in talking to the fertilizer guy about my soil samples, he said I would need extra lime to allow the soil nitrogen to "free" itself for use by the plants.  Test said I had plenty of nitrogen in the soil, wood does not "use it up" but does use nitrogen to break down and returns the nitrogen to the soil.  So without my soil test, we would not know this.  Soil test will tell you EXACTLY what your soil needs in minerals to allow the best growth of my "crop" which is pasture grasses.  Lime evidently is real helpful in many aspects to plants and trapped minerals in the soil with manure like mine spread on them.  I find the wood materials to be helpful in adding slow-to-breakdown organic material, so the grass plant roots are mulched for protection from sunburn, erosion in our downpours, keeps the soil moist during the summer dry spells.  My pastures look and graze the best they ever have, between the spreading and mowing often to keep things growing.  I keep thinking "giant lawn" and those methods work for us.  We graze rather intensively with the horses, rotating pastures, no hay needed in summer.  So I need the grass producing as well as possible from May to late October when we get the freezing weather.

We have two lambs for this summer.  They are getting more friendly with leading them outside daily to graze.  Each has a bell, helps the horses know where they are all the time.  The one horse HATES surprises, so bell has made him happy.  Lambs are in a paddock with the two cattle.  All split hoof animals seem happy together, except when the steer licks the lambs, then they run away.  

We hope to wash and shear the lambs tomorrow, finally warm enough with upper 60s.  Daughter has learned to do shearing herself, does a good job on the sheep stand.  Ours never read that book about sitting quietly, ALWAYS fight.  Stand is much easier.  The black lamb will turn white losing his outer layer.  We will shear about monthly, meat lambs gain faster in very short wool when it is hot.

I save the trimmed wool (over an inch long) for pillow stuffing.  Meat wool is pretty coarse, but makes great stuffing after running it thru the washer in pillow cases.  Actually I wash the wool, two or three  pillow cases full, loose packed, to balance in the top load machine.  I use HOT water to remove lanolin and smell.  Usually use Tide soap, wash twice in hot, rinse an extra time, then toss them in the dryer.  This process creates little fluffy, felt wool balls with the short length of wool and drying.  As pillow stuffing they stay VERY springy, are extremely comfortable to sleep on.  And no sheep smell.  I do rewash my pillows once or twice a year in the washer again, then dryer.  Pillows stay soft and springy with this method.  I use pretty ticking material for the casings, standard sizes, then pillow case over.   

I tried being nice to my wool as described in your posts, was WAY too much work with scooping loose wool out, water changes.  So went to the loosely packed pillow case method and washing machine cleaning.  I am not a spinner or weaver, haven't tried making felt either.  Just needed to find a place to use the wool.  Have to say those Dorset crosses had the SOFTEST wool, made terrific pillows!  Any family member who has rated a homemade pillow LOVES them.

Again, thanks for having this place to share information about sheep and lambies.  They are funny.  Sorry I got carried away with sharing so much!


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## Beekissed

No!  It was great!  That's why I started this thread, as the sheep people are far and few here...it is wonderful to exchange info on sheep with someone.   

I've noticed that my girls won't touch fescue or clover in the spring and summer...have you noticed this with your sheep?  They will, however, gorge themselves on it in the fall and go into winter very fat and glossy.  I've read that the sugar content of these two forages changes after frost and cold weather and it becomes very sweet and nutritious for ruminants then.  I have read about the fescues and the difficulty with pregnancy, but I can't really eliminate all the fescues I have already growing...heck, I'd have a bald place if I did that!

I did overseed but not much.  Mostly I scattered pelleted lime here as the soils in this area are very calcium and phosphorus deficient.  

I've always found it to be a mark of small town inexperience when these fair judges cannot judge individual breeds on their particular merits and so discourage heritage breeds and less popular breeds in farming.  

I've also found that it goes in trends, particularly in cattle, not so much in sheep.  When I was young, it was Char cattle, then Herefords, then Limousin, then back to Angus...have they no imagination?  Are they unable to judge the individual breeds upon their own merits...like Highland cattle....have these judges studied up on what is show quality in this breed?  Nope.  

Sad to limit these kid's experience just because these judges cannot expand their repertoire.  This has always made me irritated.

One year the kids experimented with New Zealand Red rabbits along with the NZ whites.  Our reds were excellent quality but are a smidge smaller boned than the whites...excellent stock all the same.  Unfortunately, if your rabbits are white, they don't win.  Weird!  

I haven't gotten a chance to get any fecals done or even to call my vet and price these tests.  Too much happening here to get a chance to do these little things.  I'm still curious though.


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## Beekissed

Took back the loaner ram today and brought home one of his daughters!  She looks very much like him, so we named her Little Moe after her papa, Big Moe.  Her full name is Little Moe Money...as in "this is what we really needed around here"!  

She will lamb in the middle of June and this will be her first lambing.  She is already bagging out and has a swollen vulva.  She is very sweet and lets us pet her...I think she will be a lot like her sire and be friendly and bold.  

Will post pics when I can.  She is full blood Katahdin, bred to a Dorper ram.  She is cream with red speckles on her face and legs.  

Little Moe.....


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## Beekissed

Bought baby bottles today, just in case.  If I have a triple...which is highly unlikely on a first lambing...I want to be prepared. 

 Also got some iodine for the umbilicals, as there are many bugs/flies right now.  NOT the time I would have chosen for lambing but I didn't get a say in this one.  

Removed ear tags today....I don't tag ewes that will stay here.  My lambs to be sold won't need tags either, as the fellow that buys these lots of hair breed lambs sells them in large lots.  Apparently he doesn't need tags for this endeavor in these parts.  

I hate those heavy tags weighing down those soft ears....I know that sounds mushy but I didn't even pierce my own ears, can't imagine doing it to my lambs.


----------



## Beekissed

Mo is working out just fine and I find her less skittish than the Bettys, which I love!  The Bettys are still wild as deer when it comes to being handled.  This new girl is pert near bomb proof!  My son ran the mower right next to her, which she had never experienced, and she just chewed her cud and watched him drive by.... 

She also will let me touch her just anywhere as long as she has food in front of her.  She has some real pretty and soft wool and I'm willing to bet she is having twins or a really big single.  She is waddling and she isn't due until mid-June.  

If she has ewes, I will keep them to build my little herd.  Can't wait for babies!


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## Beekissed

Here is the newest flock member to Sweetwater, along with the Bettys~who look a little scruffy as they are in mid-shed.  Mo is the cream colored ewe on the left.  She will not shed this year, as she is not quite a year old.  







She is learning about herd life within a smaller herd where the pecking order is quite defined.  She is adapting well and standing up for herself....and, like her father, is all about the FOOD!  Mom had to run her out of the chicken coop this evening when she was trying to feed the chooks.     That little sheeple learns _quick_!


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## freemotion

Lovely little flock!  Soon to be bigger!


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## ksalvagno

Everyone is looking good!

I'm experimenting with using Golden Seal for coccidia. I used Golden Seal on a few of my goats for different reasons (2 for potential coccidia and 2 were coughing). Then I had my alpaca fecal tested and it did come back with coccidia. So I did Golden Seal on her and next week I do the followup fecal to see if the coccidia are gone. It will be interesting.

I will say that the 2 goats that had dog log fecals went back to pellets after the Golden Seal. Also the goats stopped coughing too. So we will see.

Good luck with the birth in June.


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## Beekissed

Can you get it at a health food's store?  I've heard of people taking it but I never learned the properties of Golden Seal and what it is supposed to do...can you tell me?


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## ksalvagno

It is supposed to be like an antibiotic. I bet you could get the pills at the health food store. I bought the tincture from someone who places large orders online. I'm trying to find a source for the tincture myself so I can order when I want to. It isn't cheap but I wanted an alternative to antibiotics. 

A friend of mine who has goats said that she and her children have been taking Golden Seal for years for problems that might need antibiotics but hasn't tried it on the goats yet. Another goat breeder has also used Golden Seal for years on herself and her goats and says it works every time and she has been able to avoid using antibiotics on her goats. 

Golden Seal is very bitter so the animals aren't going to be thrilled to take it. I was told the tincture is the easiest to give an animal but I'm sure you could just mix the powder in with water too. You also can't do it for more than 7 days in a row.


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## freemotion

A quick google search brought this up, I'm sure there are other articles on making your own tinctures.  It is very simple and inexpensive:  http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=007SHR

One of the issues with buying capsules is that you can't tell what is really in them.  I prefer to buy whole things, whether it is herbs or grains or whatever, because it is rare that they are contaminated....so I am anxious to see the results of your experiment!!  If it is successful.....I will either buy some goldenseal root and make a tincture, or plant some.  The article says that stored properly, a tincture can keep for 20 years!  So make it once and know it is safe to use....easy-peasy.

BTW, comfrey is considered a dangerous plant only because some idiot decided to sell comfrey capsules and used the wrong part of the plant, and many people went into liver failure.  Now you cannot buy comfrey.  Apply this principle to everything and you wouldn't be able to buy cherries, because most of the plant is poisonous, just not the fruit.

I wonder how easy it is to grow goldenseal?


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## Beekissed

We used to forage the hollers for it, along with ginseng.  Ginseng was more common, if that tells you anything, and ginseng really brought a good price back then.


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## Beekissed

Well, contemplating doing my first culling of my sheep.    I am thinking I will sell Ugly Betty when I can.  

She has been exposed to a ram but I'm not sure she caught and she acts a little like she didn't.  She was riding my other ewe the other day on about the same heat cycle that she used to.  She also isn't filling out in the flanks like the other ewe bred at the same time.

On top of that, she is just not real likable and doesn't have the disposition that I desire here.  Too flighty, can't be touched, sneaks into the garden and eats all my plants when my back is turned, climbs into my lawn chaises and eats my apple trees.  She's bossy and mean to one of the other ewes and she is the biggest pig of all.  She also is a climber, which I try to discourage.  

All in all, not a great influence around here.  She also doesn't have the conformation that I like but she was a bargain sheep that was thrown in on a deal with another.  She was the runt of trips and the farmer wanted to get rid of her so I got a good deal. 

And, when it comes down to it, she's just .....ugly.  I know that is mean but she just doesn't have that feminine face that most ewes have, she has very thin legs and a narrow chest.  

I also fear she might hurt the new lambs on the way...she is not kind to new comers.  So...after much thought, I will sell her as soon as I can.


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Well, contemplating doing my first culling of my sheep.    I am thinking I will sell Ugly Betty when I can.
> 
> She has been exposed to a ram but I'm not sure she caught and she acts a little like she didn't.  She was riding my other ewe the other day on about the same heat cycle that she used to.  She also isn't filling out in the flanks like the other ewe bred at the same time.
> 
> On top of that, she is just not real likable and doesn't have the disposition that I desire here.  Too flighty, can't be touched, sneaks into the garden and eats all my plants when my back is turned, climbs into my lawn chaises and eats my apple trees.  She's bossy and mean to one of the other ewes and she is the biggest pig of all.  She also is a climber, which I try to discourage.
> 
> All in all, not a great influence around here.  She also doesn't have the conformation that I like but she was a bargain sheep that was thrown in on a deal with another.  She was the runt of trips and the farmer wanted to get rid of her so I got a good deal.
> 
> And, when it comes down to it, she's just .....ugly.  I know that is mean but she just doesn't have that feminine face that most ewes have, she has very thin legs and a narrow chest.
> 
> I also fear she might hurt the new lambs on the way...she is not kind to new comers.  So...after much thought, I will sell her as soon as I can.


That stinks, but it's a necessary part of animal raising (and the part I hate the most).  Is she the spotted one?  

And if you can, you may want to send in a blood test to Biotracking to make sure if she's bred or open.  If she is bred, you can sell her for more.  It's really easy to do, and cheap!!


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## ksalvagno

that is the hard part about livestock business. You have to have a plan and try to stick to it. No sense in keeping an animal that doesn't work with your plan. It is amazing how hard it is to do sometimes though. Sometimes I can't wait to get an alpaca sold and sometimes I just can't seem to part with one. I'm sure I will be that way with the goats too.


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## Beekissed

I'm really working towards some hardy, easy care animals here and I would also like to breed for temperament...she just doesn't have what I'm looking for in her conformation or her personality.  

Her legs are thin, chest is narrow, head isn't feminine and she is pretty dominant, flighty and too smart~she is always the leader in mischief and escape tactics.  

I like the idea of smart sheep...just not smart-aleck ones!    She is constantly learning how to open gates, latches, climb through or over barriers, etc. 

Yes, Aggie, she is the spotted one.  I didn't pick her out at the time of sale, she got thrown in as a cheapy bargain as the runt of triplets.  I couldn't turn down the good price and hoped she would grow into a decent animal.  I still don't like her after a year.  

Its just one of those things about building a good herd, I imagine.  Sometimes you have to cull hard.


----------



## Beekissed

Today I penned the sheep and pulled and trimmed off all the extra wool I could.  The Bettys look very sleek and pretty but Mo is not really ready to shed off completely, so she looks like a poodle.  

I was amazed at the difference in the wool on these sheep!  The Bettys are Katahdin/St. Croix cross and Mo is pure Katahdin.  The cross sheep have very poor wool quality and are mostly true hair-type fibers.  They have very little lanolin in their coat, particularly Ugly Betty.  Black Betty has beautiful, shiney black fibers but they are quite coarse to touch.  Ugly Betty's coat is more like a goat's.  

Mo on the other hand, a pure Katahdin,  has a buttery layer of lanolin next to her short coat.  It truely looks just like butter and feels very much like salve or a balm.  It doesn't smell strongly and gives the wool a gooey soft texture.  Her wool is short but dense, very fine and soft to touch.  Somewhat straight in the body portion but becomes quite curly and in ringlets near the neck and buttocks.  

Very pretty and would make a very nice pelt if tanned with the hair on. 

 Mo's wool pulled off in great, soft sheets and felt like pulling taffy.  Underneath the dirty wool was a creamy, buttery colored new wool...very short and fuzzy.  Very soft and pretty. 

The Betty's old wool looked like nasty, matted brown carpeting and wouldn't pull off easily.  I just trimmed it with scissors as there was so little of it left.  They now look very sleek and svelte.  

Mo is nicely bagged up but not really enough, I think, to think she is having her lambs any time soon.  She is nicely rounded and seems to be carrying a load.  She is due this month but the farmer was not sure of just when,  

Black Betty looks very filled out for only having been bred in mid to late April.  Ugly Betty shows very little difference in her body since her breeding and my not have taken.


----------



## Beekissed

Well...we are getting close to lambing here and I don't see any difference in my preggers ewe.  Her flock mates are starting to lamb, so I expect it will be any day now.  

This evening I noticed the other sheep were acting funny around her...butting her in her udder and riding her.  I was wondering if she is secreting some hormone that would indicate her lambing is due?  Is this normal?  

Anyhoo...I put her in the lambing jug for the night, just in case.


----------



## FarmerDenise

I found this site on on Goldenseal, which discusses the cultivation.
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/g/golsea27.html

Here's to hoping you have a little one or two in the morning


----------



## freemotion

The term "lambing jug" is so odd to me....I can't help but picture a ewe having a swig of moonshine from a stoneware gallon jug!


----------



## ksalvagno

Well, here are the results of the fecals done on my alpaca. Initially she had a few each of coccidia, nematodirus, strongyle and trichuris. My alpaca is almost 200 pounds.

I did 5 days of twice a day Golden Seal at 1.5cc. I also did Molly's Herbals wormer #2 for 5 days in a row the first week and then once a week after. My alpaca is pregnant so I didn't want to use Molly Herbal wormer #1 because of the wormwood.

Fecal taken 2 weeks after last dose of Golden Seal came back with a few coccidia and a few strongyle. So the herbs did take care of 2 parasites, at least enough that they don't show up on a fecal. Since it is still only a few, I'm going to continue with trying herbs to rid this alpaca of parasites (yes I know I will never totally rid my animals of the parasites).

I think I'm going to do another round of Golden Seal but up it to 2cc twice a day. I have also started putting cloves in their food every day and will soon get black walnut to put in their food every day. 

The local goat breeder that I consult with on the herbals gives her Nigerians a teaspoon of cloves, a teaspoon of black walnut and a teaspoon of DE every day. She does her own fecals and if she finds coccidia, she does the Golden Seal for 5 days. If she sees lice or mites, she adds garlic powder. 

So I'm going to continue the Molly's Herbals wormer but also add the daily cloves and black walnut. I'm having a hard time finding the right DE. The feed stores around me just carry the powder stuff and I have been using it and it is doing nothing. Found out that the powder won't do anything.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Anyhoo...I put her in the lambing jug for the night, just in case.


How big is your jug?  It's not really recommended for them to lamb in the jug.  They go in the jug after lambing.  There's usually not enough space to safely lamb, but yours may be big.  

And my ewe is really bagging up!  I hope to have lambs next week!


----------



## Beekissed

*Ksalvagno*, that is interesting info and I'll try to find some goldenseal and see if I can't grow my own.  

I don't know that I would want to do a daily de-worming, especially with my wild herd, but I do plan to use my walnut hulls this year as well as continuing to use the garlic and Shaklee's soap. 


*Aggie*, my jug is approx. 6 ft. x 6 ft., so should be plenty of space to lamb....but I put her out of it this morning and expect she will lamb up in the orchard like my milk cow did.  I just really wanted to SEE the lambing, but I'm sure I won't get to see the blessed event...never do.  

It was so rainy and wet last night and they were all acting so weirdly....and they were running with the dog~a little game of tag they like to play when its cool in the evening.  All of these made me think I should just pen her up for the night....of course, animals have their own minds about these things.  

I have two lambing jugs and the one mentioned is the smaller of the two...I could actually divide the other and make it into two jugs.  

*Free..*the first time I heard it I had to laugh also!   

Around here everyone calls ewes "yohs", which also made me laugh the first time I heard it.  But you just cannot call them ewes here because no one knows of which you speak...so I found myself calling them yohs also.  

Now...imagine putting your yohs in a lambing jug.... almost like a foreign language, isn't it?


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> *Aggie*, my jug is approx. 6 ft. x 6 ft., so should be plenty of space to lamb....but I put her out of it this morning and expect she will lamb up in the orchard like my milk cow did.  I just really wanted to SEE the lambing, but I'm sure I won't get to see the blessed event...never do.
> 
> It was so rainy and wet last night and they were all acting so weirdly....and they were running with the dog~a little game of tag they like to play when its cool in the evening.  All of these made me think I should just pen her up for the night....of course, animals have their own minds about these things.
> 
> I have two lambing jugs and the one mentioned is the smaller of the two...I could actually divide the other and make it into two jugs.


I'd still be careful.  6' square isn't really that much space, especially because ewes like to build nests and get up and down a lot when they lamb.  I can see a lamb getting stepped on if there's no space for the ewe to move around.  Jugs are really for after the ewe lambs.  Do you have an open are under cover if you need to bring her in from outside?


----------



## BriteChicken

Aggie I think Bee was saying that her jug is 6'x6' so wouldn't that make it 36 square feet? I'm newly researching so I'll admit I know very little but 6x6 ft sounds good for birthing to me but if it isn't why would that amount of space be good to put momma and baby in after it's born?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm curious about this 

EDIT: I love this journal it has made me want to get Katahdins when I do get sheep!


----------



## aggieterpkatie

BriteChicken said:
			
		

> Aggie I think Bee was saying that her jug is 6'x6' so wouldn't that make it 36 square feet? I'm newly researching so I'll admit I know very little but 6x6 ft sounds good for birthing to me but if it isn't why would that amount of space be good to put momma and baby in after it's born?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions but I'm curious about this
> 
> EDIT: I love this journal it has made me want to get Katahdins when I do get sheep!


I could possibly work out just fine, it just sounds small.  The smallest recommended jugs are 4x4, and 5x5 is even better.  I certainly dont' want to tell what to do, but I just think even a 6' square jug is small for lambing. Jugs are really for after lambing.   If you watch sheep, they get up and move around a lot during the lambing process.    I think the smallest I personally would feel comfortable with for a lambing stall would be 8' square.  I really feel better with them lambing out on pasture.  

Bee, please don't think I'm being bossy.  I mean it in a helpful way, not a mean way.


----------



## jhm47

The biggest problem with lambing in a small confined space is that the ewes will lie down in a corner and try to push the lamb out.  The lamb will often hit a wall, and the ewe will have to try to push the lamb out against the resistance of the wall.  Sheep are not noted for their high intelligence, and the ewe will often stand up and go to another corner, and do the same thing till the lamb is either dead or it falls out on one of the ewe's circles around the jug.  

Cattle do the same thing sometimes, that's why I try to have them give birth is the biggest area possible, and then confine them in a smaller space till they are imprinted and doing well.

With cattle, I'd never confine in less than a 12 X 15 pen.


----------



## BriteChicken

Thanks for the info I did not know that and I apologize for my ignorance can anyone suggest any books?


----------



## Beekissed

The farmer from whom I bought these sheep has lambing jugs approx. 3ft. x 4ft.....constructs them from pallets in a temporary nature in his large open barn and then takes them down when no longer needed.  

Usually his sheep have already lambed and he moves them there so they can bond for a few days~but he has had some that he caught before they had them and placed them in a jug.  

He has been quite successful with this method and his hair sheep don't seem to be like the woollies he used to keep for many years.....very few lambing problems like the ones described here.  Very few of his sheep lie down to lamb, from what I understand.  

I have a larger one that is approx. 8 x 6 but I think my smaller one will suffice.  I expect my sheep will have hers in the field and I don't mind if she does...clean grass and plenty of room.  

Welcome to the forum, Brite!  I'm glad you like the journal!   

I too have read several places that lambing jugs can be smaller than mine, so I designed mine for this size on purpose.  The aforementioned farmer likes his small jugs so that the lambs can't get too far from mom.  

Aggie, I don't mind...I value your advice!  

I'll have to post a pic of my hodge-podge little lean-to barn built from scrap lumber and repurposed tin roofing....it ain't pretty but it serves the purpose.  I rent this place, so I didn't want to get too elaborate with building structures.  The existing buildings are ancient, so I just attached to these and tried to follow their general size and proportions.  

I even have sheep sized head gates built into the pen so that I can immobilize them for treatments, milking, etc.   I kind of like it...but, yeah, who wouldn't want something bigger?  I sure would!  I love a nice big barn!


----------



## Beekissed

Still waiting on the new gal to pop some lambs....she is bagging out great and is swollen at her vulva~but no other sign of lambs....  

All the other sheep bred at the same time as she was have had their lambs...all singles.   All the same ram.  My ewe looks twice the size of any of the other ewes, so I'm hoping she is having twins.  

For all you experienced sheeple...I've never read this anywhere but I'm wondering if this is also a sign of imminent lambing....she has been walking around all day with her tail held up and away from her bottom.  Almost like she is feeling a lot of pressure or like she wants to defecate and cannot.  

Is this one more sign of a ewe getting ready to start lambing?


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> For all you experienced sheeple...I've never read this anywhere but I'm wondering if this is also a sign of imminent lambing....she has been walking around all day with her tail held up and away from her bottom.  Almost like she is feeling a lot of pressure or like she wants to defecate and cannot.
> 
> Is this one more sign of a ewe getting ready to start lambing?


Well....my sheep don't have tails.     But yes, this is a sign that all her muscles and ligaments around her hind end are relaxing to get ready for lambing.


----------



## freemotion

Do sheep "lose their ligaments" like goats do, and lamb within 12 hours or so?  That sure makes life easy when you don't know the exact breeding date.


----------



## freemotion

BriteChicken said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info I did not know that and I apologize for my ignorance can anyone suggest any books?


The library will likely have...or can get....Storey's guides for you.  The internet is also a great resource.  Look at ag college sites for lots of stuff.  Look here to see how to do it on a homestead rather than commercially.

I enjoy a lot of the information in Carla Emery's book, The Encyclopedia of Country Living.  I have goats, not sheep, but she has a lot of useful information for the homesteader or backyard animal owner, stuff that is practical and not geared towards the commercial grower or promoting the products of the large feed companies as the only way to go.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

freemotion said:
			
		

> Do sheep "lose their ligaments" like goats do, and lamb within 12 hours or so?  That sure makes life easy when you don't know the exact breeding date.


I've never heard of anyone checking ligs on sheep, plus they're pretty meaty compared to goats.   I go more on behavior...usually they isolate themselves and stop eating, nest, etc.  Although you do get those ewes who will chow down with the baby bubble hanging out.


----------



## Beekissed

Aggie, that will be my gal...she is a hungry, hungry hippo!  She is JUST like her father and fears nothing if it means food will be at hand!  

I keep watching her for isolating herself, making a nest, not eating as much....I really think this one will just be walking along eating and they will drop out her hind parts and she will eat the membranes and afterbirth as a matter of course...they would just be more food to her!   

She is a PIG!   

She is pretty spraddle-legged, bagged up, swollen, tail has went back to former position but no other signs.....you know, a watched pot and all.  

Free, you really can see a difference at the tailhead on this one and it started soon after she dropped....and that was two or three days ago!  

This is her first lambing and she is just one year old this month, so things may not go as normally for an experienced ewe...not sure if there is usually a difference. 

 She does look WAY larger than her flock mates did that had single lambs, so I'm still hoping for twins.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Aggie, that will be my gal...she is a hungry, hungry hippo!  She is JUST like her father and fears nothing if it means food will be at hand!
> 
> I keep watching her for isolating herself, making a nest, not eating as much....I really think this one will just be walking along eating and they will drop out her hind parts and she will eat the membranes and afterbirth as a matter of course...they would just be more food to her!
> 
> She is a PIG!
> 
> She is pretty spraddle-legged, bagged up, swollen, tail has went back to former position but no other signs.....you know, a watched pot and all.
> 
> Free, you really can see a difference at the tailhead on this one and it started soon after she dropped....and that was two or three days ago!
> 
> This is her first lambing and she is just one year old this month, so things may not go as normally for an experienced ewe...not sure if there is usually a difference.
> 
> She does look WAY larger than her flock mates did that had single lambs, so I'm still hoping for twins.


Yeah, I had a ewe that was due any day, so I came home at lunch to check on her.  She was fine, munching away on hay.  I went to do something else and came back *maybe* 20 minutes later and she already had a lamb on the ground.  

As far as your ewes age...lambing at one year is slightly early. Typically people breed ewes at around 7-8 months of age, so they'd be about 14-15 months at lambing.  How big was she when she was bred?  Most people like to wait until the ewe lamb is at least 80 lbs or so at breeding time.  She may due just fine, unless she's smaller than normal.

Edited to add...apparently my brain was still asleep when I wrote this this morning.    Breeding at 7-8 mos would mean lambing at 12-13 mos, so Bee I think your ewe should be fine.


----------



## Beekissed

Yeah, she was 7 mo. when she was bred but I wouldn't have bred her that young.  Funny thing is, the farmer that bred her that young advised me against breeding mine at the same age!  Go figure..... 

I think he got a new Dorper ram and just wanted to see what he could do, so he bred a whole bunch of 7 mo. old ewes to this fella.  He sort of looks like the bull terrier of rams....short, stocky as a tank, Roman nose.   

She is still eating......


----------



## freemotion

Beekissed said:
			
		

> She is still eating......


So am I....


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> She is still eating......


You know how I mentioned some ewes eat w/ the baby bubble hanging out?  That was Darla on Saturday!


----------



## Beekissed

I'm glad to know that someone else has a pig instead of a sheep!  

Mine is still eating...... no lambs.    She looks miserable when she lays down.  Can't curl her legs up like the others but must sprawl uncomfortably and struggles to get to her feet.  I know how she feels.....


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I'm glad to know that someone else has a pig instead of a sheep!
> 
> Mine is still eating...... no lambs.    She looks miserable when she lays down.  Can't curl her legs up like the others but must sprawl uncomfortably and struggles to get to her feet.  I know how she feels.....


Why is she keeping us waiting?!    I can't wait to see what she has!


----------



## BriteChicken

Is there a baby this morning?


----------



## Beekissed

NO!!!!    

Her back end is so swollen and she is so very dropped...I can't see how she can NOT have these lambs!   

Her udder is swollen so tight that the teats are sticking out to the sides and are turned pink.  

And she is still eating her fool head off and acting like she has no sweater larvae inside her waiting to come out!!!!   

I realllllllly want to see my first lambs come out....I'm hoping that God will allow me that much, as I've never seen lambs born.  I've seen cows, horses, dogs, cats, etc.  Never any lambs.  

I'm thinking she was the ugly sheep of the bunch and got bred when he finally ran out of pretty gals!


----------



## Beekissed

If I were a betting person, I would bet that those lambs will come this weekend.  She is not grazing as much as she normally does and seems to have a forlorn look to her today.  She perks up a little when I come to her but she looks.....worried. 

She is obviously uncomfortable when she walks or lies down and is _very_ swollen around her vulva.  She is not in labor or anything but she does seem to be less comfortable and not in her normal I'm so hungry that I might die if I don't eat something, anything, right now! mode. 

I fed the other gals some broccoli leaves and she just lipped a few of them and walked away.   

I hope, I hope, I hope!!!!


----------



## BriteChicken

I can feel it today is a birthing day I woke up to three chicks in my incubator and there was a pretty full moon last night.


----------



## Beekissed

That's what I was thinking in the middle of the night, Brite!  Full moon?  Bound to have something goin' on out there!  

She still hasn't gone and it is sooooooooo hot here today!  I'm hoping, for her sake, she has them in the cool of the morning, evening or at night.  Too hot to be having babies......


----------



## Beekissed

Guess what???  I have a new ram lamb!!!      

The dogs came down to the house and alerted me to something going on.  Upon investigation (I had been checking every so often today anyway), I noticed the ewe with a bag of amniotic fluid hanging from her vulva.  It burst while I was watching.  

She didn't seem in much distress but was calling out and approached me when I went up in the orchard to her.  I lured her down to the lambing pen with the feed bucket....of course, she was still thinking about food!  She ate a good bait of feed and then started to have some labor pains.  

She couldn't lie down and couldn't stand up...and I remembered that feeling!  I felt so sorry for her!  She finally had a few hooves peeking out but couldn't seem to get much further.  About 45 min. after the birth sac had broken, I decided to help her in just the littlest way...

I gently pulled on the feet of this lamb and she seemed to understand that I was helping her because she seriously started to push and didn't seem to mind my presence.  As soon as the lamb's forehead cleared the vulva, the rest was easy and she expelled him all by herself.  

Nice big ram lamb for this size of ewe!  She is a good mother and has been licking and chuckling to him...I love that sound!  

*Now...question:*
She still looks pretty big to me and there is another sac of fluid hanging out of her...this one is a darker hue than the previous one and somewhat smaller but definitely fluid and not the afterbirth.  

Could this mean she will have another?  

I have dial-up so the process is slow but am currently downloading some pics of the new guy...haven't thought of a name yet.

First pic...will try to download more later and will try to post some of the birth if anyone is interested. 












ETA:  This pic looks fine on my computer and even on the upload site on this forum but for some reason has come out blurry on this post.  Not sure what to do about that.


----------



## Mea

Congratulations !!!   on the lambie.     The way You describe her... there oughta be more than one in there.   Hope all goes well for her.  At least, being night time... it is a tiny bit cooler.


   Yay  !!  for little lambies !!!


----------



## ksalvagno

Congratulations on the new little guy. He is cute!

You will have to update us if she had more.


----------



## Beekissed

Pics of his first meal....that tail was twirling like a helicopter!


----------



## BriteChicken

Aw what a cutie!  Congrats!  

Did you ever figure out if the dark fluid was another lamb or the after birth?


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Congrats!  Looking at his size and her size, I'd be surprised if she had another!  He's a cutie!


----------



## Beekissed

Aggie, you are correct...she only had one and she is doing fine.  I never did see what I thought the afterbirth would look like...at least what a human's look like.  She did expell a long string of tissue with bloody pockets of this or that but she had no interest in eating it and this was given to the dogs. 

She and the lamb are doing great and she is eating and drinking well...and so is the babe.  I named him Sweetwater Mo's Slow Moonshine for obvious reasons, but more than likely we will call him Slo-Mo for short.  

She is a good and gentle mama and becomes very concerned if he is out of her sight.  He is soft....so very soft..not like the woolly breeds at all.  More like a puppy.  

Our kitten, Percy Jackson, helped with the whole delivery and he is very proud of his lamb.  

If anyone is interested in seeing pics of the delivery, I can try to download the whole sequence one day and post it...it is rather graphic and messy, though.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Aggie, you are correct...she only had one and she is doing fine.  I never did see what I thought the afterbirth would look like...at least what a human's look like.  She did expell a long string of tissue with bloody pockets of this or that but she had no interest in eating it and this was given to the dogs.
> 
> She and the lamb are doing great and she is eating and drinking well...and so is the babe.  I named him Sweetwater Mo's Slow Moonshine for obvious reasons, but more than likely we will call him Slo-Mo for short.
> 
> She is a good and gentle mama and becomes very concerned if he is out of her sight.  He is soft....so very soft..not like the woolly breeds at all.  More like a puppy.
> 
> Our kitten, Percy Jackson, helped with the whole delivery and he is very proud of his lamb.
> 
> If anyone is interested in seeing pics of the delivery, I can try to download the whole sequence one day and post it...it is rather graphic and messy, though.
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/82_first_lamb_039.jpg


Aww, Slo-Mo.    And yes, I love how soft hair sheep lambs are compared to the kinky tight curls of wool breed lambs!


----------



## Beekissed

He went out on pasture with mom this evening and seems to love his new big world!  I love the way they hop and skip!  

This raising sheep is pretty fun at times, isn't it?   

I really enjoy watching them and seeing how beautiful they have become...well..except Mo.  I don't think anyone would call her beautiful but I have noticed a difference in her since the baby was born...she carries herself like a _mother_!  Head more erect, ears less floppy, much more vigilant...like she aged overnight. 

She somehow seems more....graceful and purposeful.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> He went out on pasture with mom this evening and seems to love his new big world!  I love the way they hop and skip!


I was looking out the window yesterday and saw a guinea run across the pasture....with the lamb in hot pursuit bounding after him.    They're hilarious to watch!


----------



## Henrietta23

Lamb shenanigans. That's what my sheeple friend calls them. She loves it when her adult sheep do it still.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

So Bee, what are your plans for him?


----------



## Beekissed

We were just discussing this on SS.com....I'm leaning towards wethering him right now.  I would have to separate him from Mom at 3 mo. if I wanted to keep him intact and I hate to do that.  

If I wether him, he can keep my ram company when he has to be separate from the girls.  Then I have up to a year to decide to sell or eat.....I really want to taste one of these hair sheep lambs!  

I know he's cute but one can't grow food or run a farm on sympathy, can we?


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I know he's cute but one can't grow food or run a farm on sympathy, can we?


Sympathy doesn't give you a full belly.    That's the issue I'm having with my romney ram.  He's a nice boy...very calm and nice.  BUT, the plans for him were always to have him breed the ewes in the fall, and then be processed. I was also going to tan his hide because he's a natural color romney, so his fleece is a lovely chocolate color.  

My neighbor (who has Border Leicesters) is giving me a hard time about processing him, though she can't stand the thought of eating any animal she raises.  She has more money and more land than me, so I tried telling her I don't have room for pets (when she suggested we wether him and keep him).  Plus, his crimp isn't really nice enough to keep him for his fleece.  

She's also giving me trouble about breeding him back to his dam. Ideally I wouldn't do that, but I don't have the money to buy another ram, and I'll most likely process the resulting lambs anyways.  Decisions, decisions.  :/   Sometimes I wish I had a consultant.  

On the other hand, this crossbred ewe lamb that was just born recently.....I think I'll keep her because her mother has excellent conformation and is a great mom, and her dad has nice conformation as well.  But I guess I have a while to decide on that or not. She's only a week and a half old.


----------



## Beekissed

Aggie, I have a sister like that and she does the same thing to me....agonizes over the fact that I kill and eat the animals that I raise here.  She about had a fit over the bottle calf we butchered this winter...my mother wouldn't even tell her that we had done it, it was that bad.  

Some folks have more money than sense and that is fine, but I got these animals with the intention of providing food and income to me and my family.  This cannot be confused with raising fuzzy things to look at and pet.  

I'm glad someone out there still remembers that farming is food production, not a petting zoo enterprise.  

Do you think she objects to your breeding program because she is putting these animals on a human level and finds son to mother breeding repugnant?  

If you are selling/eating the offspring, I can't imagine that it makes much difference.  It happens all the time on farms...whether accidentally or out of necessity.  Not the end of the world and shouldn't result in any birth defects, should it?


----------



## Beekissed

Slow Mo is doing well and is getting quite enough milk, from the feel of his tummy.  I watch them closely and he only gets a chance to get a mouthful here and there...and her udder is full to bursting...but his belly is full and he is gaining weight.  

I'm thinking he would be more aggressive and opportunistic if he had a twin that was competing for those teats!   

I am very amazed at the size of the udder on my other ewe, Black Betty!  She was bred in mid-to late April for a Sept. lambing but she is already very filled out and starting to get a little udder on her....is this common to see this level of development on a ewe this early on in the pregnancy?  

My other ewe, Ugly Betty, doesn't have that full abdomen look to her and has no udder development whatsoever...which leads me to believe that she didn't get pregnant with the breeding.  She also has acted like she is coming into heat...riding her flockmates a little.  

I will probably sell her this fall, after Black Betty lambs, so she will not miss her quite so much.  I know that sounds like a lot of mushy drivel, but these sheep of mine seem to grieve if they lose a friend.  They cried for months when I butchered their herd mate, a bottle calf of approx.  8 mo. of age.   They were very agitated and running back and forth in their pen on butchering day and they called repeatedly and for days to a calf that looked like ours over in the neighbor's field.  They just wanted her to come baaaaaaaaa-ck!!!! 
 

They seem to form strong attachments, so I hate to distress them too much.


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Do you think she objects to your breeding program because she is putting these animals on a human level and finds son to mother breeding repugnant?


Probably so, because she asked me, "Would you like to have a baby with your son?"     Sure lady, because it's exactly the same.  

Glad to hear Slo Mo is doing well!


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## aggieterpkatie

Hey Bee, have you docked and castrated?  Remember to keep on top of the banding locations to keep flies away.  I just checked my lamb's tail yesterday and it had just started to attract flies. I saw three little maggots.    I went ahead and cut the tail off below the band, cleaned it well, and sprayed it with antibiotic spray.  

One thing you can also do if you have issues with infection/flies is duct tape the tail up onto the back so the bottom of the band is exposed. It's easier to clean and spray that way and you can keep an eye on it better.

I'm not a fan of these summer lambings....


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## Beekissed

Me neither!    But at least I'm not docking tails right now....hair sheep don't require it, thank goodness!

I am a little worried about banding the scrotum in this heat....so much potential for flies, edema, infection.  I may just cut this little fella and soak his wounds in iodine instead of banding.  

I'd have to get a scalpel/razor and would need some real good help on holding him steady.


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Me neither!    But at least I'm not docking tails right now....hair sheep don't require it, thank goodness!
> 
> I am a little worried about banding the scrotum in this heat....so much potential for flies, edema, infection.  I may just cut this little fella and soak his wounds in iodine instead of banding.
> 
> I'd have to get a scalpel/razor and would need some real good help on holding him steady.


Oh that's right, you don't have to dock.   

There's a real good hold I can describe for you.  You need a helper and some "resting" place preferrably at least waist high.  The helper will rest the lamb's bottom on the table (a narrow rail works well too, like a deck rail or something) with the lamb laying back against the helper's chest.  The lamb's head will be underneath the helper's chin.  Does that make sense?  Then, the helper will take the lambs front legs and place them on the outside of the lambs back legs, and hold each pair of legs in one hand.  I like to hold the lamb's hind leg (the cannon bone/toward the hoof, not body) in my thumb and bottom 3 fingers, and use my index finger to wrap around the front leg near the fetlock.  The helper can sort-of spread the legs apart, and then keep the hooves and legs out of the way.  The reason the front legs go on the outside is so the hooves don't droop down and get in the way.  

Did that make sense?  I can take a picture if you like.


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## jhm47

"Pinch" him.  No blood, no open wound, and no worries!  I do it to young bull calves all the time when need be.  Get yourself a good quality burdizzo, and you'll love it.


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## Beekissed

Aggie, I know the position you are describing..or a variation of it, anyway.  That is the position we used to use for our piglets for castration, except both hind legs were pulled up towards the holder's chest and the piglet's head....no way to struggle as they are practically folded in half!    Also, one can support the area around the sight with the other hand when you pull out the testes.  

JHM47, I had read about the burdizzo and I really like how it sounds but they are a little pricey, aren't they?  If I had more sheep, it would justify the cost, but I only have a few.

I think, in this heat, I prefer cutting a slit(s) in the very bottom of the sac and removing the testes...I think this would allow for adequate drainage and he would heal up a little faster than carrying that sac around under the band.  

If it were in the cool of early spring or late fall, I wouldn't mind using my bands.


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## jhm47

You must have a farmer or rancher near you that would rent you his/her burdizzo.  If not, watch for one at farm auction sales, or advertise for one on Craigslist.  I got mine at an auction sale.  One large one for calves, and a smaller one for lambs.  Paid $10 for the two, along with several dehorners and some other animal health supplies.

In the very few times that I've had to castrate bull calves in the warm months, I've just cut off the very bottom of the scrotum and removed the testes.  This allows for drainage, and any maggots that might hatch usually will fall out due to gravity.  You'd be amazed how quickly they heal.


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## Beekissed

The girls continue to thrive and grow on Sweetwater.  I am adding a few pics to the journal to show their progress...along with the new ewe and lamb.







After a few ups and downs with Slow Mo's castration...drama, drama....he seems to be doing fine and putting on weight like a sumo wrestler.  I feel the UP/ACV and raw honey drench may have been a big boost to him as he seemed to start gaining almost immediately afterwards....I'm thinking it had an affect on his stomach culture and possibly helped him digest and utilize his milk better...if his weight gain is any indication.  

I am really pleased with how this new, young ewe has performed with her lambing, her mothering and her general good health and condition during lactation.  She has been a real protective mother and will butt any dog that strays a little near her Baby Hewey...   _This pic added to show how nice an udder she has...not a great shot but you can still see she's not doing to bad for only a year old ewe.  _





We had extremely dry weather during which all the grass here browned and seemed to die.  I fed a little hay during this but the girls didn't really consume much.  I gave them armfuls of pigweed from the garden, which seems to be a big treat to them.  They have been eating apple drops and managed to get through the drought pretty well and in good condition.

I found a great deal on this year's first cut hay of good quality....for $1.50 per bale, which is unheard of around here.  I will place it in the back of the barn for spring consumption and maybe scatter a few bales into the winter's feed of second cut hay I will buy later.  

I will be getting a new ram lamb this month real soon and he will be a pretty fellow.  He is almost entirely black, a Katahdin/Dorper cross, and has a pretty conformation.  He will be four months old, so still little but will be breeding age by the time I need him in Nov/Dec.  I hope to keep for some time to come, if he turns out to be compatible here and turns out good lambs.


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## aggieterpkatie

They're looking good!  Little Mo isn't so little anymore!


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## Beekissed

No, he weighs a ton!  Hard to lift him like we did before....my arms get tired real quick while lugging around this ton bun.  

He seems to be doing fine with his banding but I won't stop being nervous until that sac is gone and he is completely healed up.  

I can't get over how sleek and fat his mother is staying through her lactation.  No added grains or anything and she is still smoothly plump and doing well.  Big udder and fat lamb.  

I am really glad I chose her from the 65 ewe lambs that day...she was the thickest and most unusually marked of the bunch.  She was really showing her pregnancy compared to the other ewe lambs....I think she will make a good flock ewe.


----------



## Dreaming Of Goats

Wow, those sheep are beautiful.....I'm new to  this thread and the forum.


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## Beekissed

Nice to meet you!  I think they are beautiful also....but then, I'm slightly biased.  

If you have read this thread, you know you are looking at sheep who have never been wormed with a commercial de-wormer since they were 4 mo. old.  I think its pretty impressive that they look so sleek and healthy as adults.  

I'm hoping this continues!   

I may be selling the holstein patterned one and will soon be gaining a ram lamb that is mostly all black.  I don't really like the conformation of the spotted one and she is a trouble maker, a bully and just an all around nuisance most days.  

I'd like to keep a main flock of 3 breeding ewes and one ram.  This is all my little acre will probably support, even with the supplemental crops I will be planting.


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## Beekissed

I'm pretty proud of myself this evening....I took on the sheeples and won!  

I've been wanting to dose them with UP/ACV ever since they got into some corn and got the runs awhile back.  They have been having some pretty moist stools, which is unusual for them.  Not really runny but just too moist for my liking.  

Well, my menfolks are all away this evening and I decided to tackle the drenching job myself...but these sheep are pretty wiley and aren't easily lured or cornered.  

I also wanted to place small, light-weight dog collars on each one....I have nowhere that they can get hung up in the fencing and I really need to have a quick hand hold place to snag them when I need to....hence the collars. 

So, I let them "sneak" into the chicken coop for a nip of feed while I was pretending to look the other way...then I slammed the door!  It took me a few wrangles like a rodeo star to get the two older ewes into collars and to drench them..but I did it.  

The younger ewe was very gentle and calm about the whole thing and just went right back to stealing chicken feed after her drenching.    I made a good choice on that little gal!  

I drenched them with the vinegar, a dab of Shaklee's soap, garlic powder, raw honey and water.  

For good measure, I used the rest of the mixture on the dogs and then in the chicken's water.

All the pretty sheeples now have cheery little red collars on their necks...we'll see how that all goes.


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## Beekissed

I took a notion to play around with my lactating ewe and see if she would stand and let me milk her.  She is very calm and sweet, so she stood still and I gave an experimental squeeze.....   

Success!  She is very easy to milk and didn't even seem to care...but I can't imagine how much one would have to milk from one sheep to get enough milk to do anything with.  

I should have tasted it...forgot!   

Anyone else on here tried milking their sheep yet?


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I took a notion to play around with my lactating ewe and see if she would stand and let me milk her.  She is very calm and sweet, so she stood still and I gave an experimental squeeze.....
> 
> Success!  She is very easy to milk and didn't even seem to care...but I can't imagine how much one would have to milk from one sheep to get enough milk to do anything with.
> 
> I should have tasted it...forgot!
> 
> Anyone else on here tried milking their sheep yet?


A few years ago I milked one of my ewes to try the milk.  It was pretty sweet milk.  Their teats are just so tiny....  I have thought about trying to milk my ewes now, but I don't really need to since I have the goat.


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## Beekissed

I wonder if those larger sheep dairies in Europe have specially designed electric milkers for sheep?  Seems to me they would have to unless they have a milking crew of Oompah-Loompahs....


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## Beekissed

Well, the day has come....I now have a ram of my own and I'm not sure I want it....  :/

When I picked him out as a new lamb, he was beautiful and had great conformation.  He has just arrived, at 4 mo. of age, and he doesn't look quite as good as I had planned.  

He is a little sway backed....   And he's smaller than I expected.  And the conformation I thought I saw is just not there anymore....only good thing is he is packing a good scrotum and he is black.  More than that I cannot say right now....maybe he will grow into a better looking guy?  

I'll post pics as soon as I can.  He's not much bigger than my 1 mo. old Slo-Mo...and not half as pretty to look upon.   I'll give him a shot of my Wonder Drench and see if it helps him look a little more sleek and less potbellied.  

We have named him Dooley.


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## abooth

Bee conngrats on your new addition.  I just got my first ram lamb and I'm sorry to say I can't really tell if he has good conformation or not.  But I think he's beautiful.

As far as milking sheep goes I have a book with pictures of a sheep dairy.  They use a parlor so the sheep are at shoulder height and the human just walks through this center aisle and hooks the gals up to an electric milker that milks the sheep and puts all the milk into a big storage tank.


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## Beekissed

I figured as much....I can't imagine milking all those small teats!  

Well, the poor guy ran his head into the fence...he's a little flighty...and knocked off one of his scurs.  Did quite a neat job of it, if I do say so.  

And he is still bawling for his mama....   Endlessly.  He is so hoarse from bawling that its kind of sad...and its driving us all NUTS!!!!


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## BriteChicken

Aren't scurs the partial horn of a de-budding gone bad? Sorry still a newbie so Idk...

But congrats on the ram lamb 

I hope in time he'll get used to you and stop crying for his momma 

Good luck with him!

OH and I seem to remember you promising pictures


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## Beekissed

Welcome to the forum, Brite!   

I'll take pics of him tomorrow...I've been so busy and haven't been getting home from work until late each night.  

Scurs can occur in breeds that are polled but still have a throwback unpolled gene.  These sheep are normally unpolled but will often have one or two small, deformed nubs or longer horns.  

He has stopped bawling but is still flighty as a deer.  I am changing my fencing system this next week so that he will have two companion sheep in his enclosure to keep him company.  Sheep just hate to be separated from the herd and it drives them batty from fear....herd equals safety to animals that have a strong instinct to flock.

I need to isolate him and check him over, drench him, put a collar on him, handle him all over so that he gets used to being "manhandled"...I usually do this before they even leave the truck but he jumped right over my head, over the tail gate and off the truck!     After that, there was no catching him....  

Once I contain him with the Bettys, he will follow them wherever they go...and they go where I go, so it won't be hard to get him into a pen later on and examine him more closely.


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## abooth

Bee it sounds like your ram lamb adventure is very similar to mine.  Mine had scurs.  Mine jumped out of the truck the day I got him home and I didn't lay a hand on him til two weeks later.  That was yesterday.  Holy cow.  I had to deworm him and do his feet.  What an adventure.  He insisted he did not need any additional care!


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## Beekissed

abooth said:
			
		

> Bee it sounds like your ram lamb adventure is very similar to mine.  Mine had scurs.  Mine jumped out of the truck the day I got him home and I didn't lay a hand on him til two weeks later.  That was yesterday.  Holy cow.  I had to deworm him and do his feet.  What an adventure.  *He insisted he did not need any **additional care*!


   

I'm thinking about the whole banding the horns thingy from the thread on here.....now that he only has one little scur, he looks even funnier than he did before.  

I haven't even _tried_ to catch this black imp.... I've seen these sheep jump to amazing heights when stressed and running wild and my fence is only 5 ft. next to the road.  I can just see him sailing over that fence and into an oncoming car...   

I'm so glad someone else is having the same issues...I was thinking I had made a bad choice in this one.  I sure hope he calms down a little more but not so much so that he feels too "familiar", if ya know what I mean!


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## Beekissed

I don't know how you folks feel about your various animals but I love certain aspects of my different sheep... and am starting to develop an aversion to one in particular...and part of it is her appearance.  

I feel slightly bad about it but it is true nonetheless that I don't like how my one ewe looks and her behaviour.  She wasn't one that I hand picked from the herd, she was a bargain thrown in with the one I picked.  She was a triplet and had a potbellied and rough coated appearance when I first got her.  

Her coloring is interesting and that's about all I can say about her.  Her conformation is off and her hair/wool is wiry and goat-like.  She is a bully and has learned to open gates and invade gardens.  She has bony hips and spindly legs and she isn't showing any signs of having been bred....no udder development, no belly.  

I have her up for sale right now and I must confess that I won't be too sorry to see her go. 

On the other hand, the two other ewes I have bring me much pleasure...they are a pleasure to see and to feel.  They are much more gentle than the other ewe and they are easier to handle and manage.  

I find Black Betty to be beautiful and I could gaze on her all day...I love the sturdy way she is built, the feminine head, graceful lines and beautiful coloring.  She is fat and sleek and already shows a milky udder and she is not due to lamb until mid-Sept. 

Mo is less beautiful in coloring but still sleek and sturdy.  Her wool is so soft and creamy to feel....I could imagine cuddling up to it for warmth.  I love running my  hands over it and she appreciates a good back rub and will stand still for it.  Definitely not wiry or rough like the typical wool breeds around here. 

Mo's wether lamb, who we now call Fats, is also soft coated, fat and sleek, gentle and sweet.  I almost wish my new ram lamb was like him...beautiful, sleek and big.  

The new ram is rough coated, very flighty and sort of ugly in appearance.  I don't expect I will keep him long unless he changes.  He was quite beautiful as a new born lamb but not so much now.  

So...do you all make choices and develop likes or dislikes on appearances as well as temperament? 

I can't help it...I tend to like things that are pleasing to the senses.


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## ksalvagno

Yes, I do. I won't buy an animal that I don't like the physical appearance of, no matter how cheap they are. Animal care takes up most of my day and I have to like them to go out there (especially in this heat) to take care of them everyday.


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## aggieterpkatie

I once heard a sheep person say he would never buy a breed he considered ugly, no matter how great that breed may be.  He said, "If I have to look at them every day, I may as well enjoy looking at them!"     That kinda always stuck in my head.  I think that's why I'll never own a shetland (no offense to those who like shetlands, they're just not my cup of tea.  )

And give your new ram some time.  When I got my Romney ewe Purl last fall, she came from a flock that didn't get much handling on a daily basis.  She was very flighty and very much an independent sheep.  She was very different from my Southdown, Darla, who was very personable and calm (she was a show sheep).  Now, not even a year later Purl has calmed down and even comes up for nose scratches and will eat out of my hand.  She's still not as friendly as Darla, who will stand to be scratched and loved on for forever and a day, but she's definitely made a HUGE improvement.  It just takes a while for them to get used to more interaction (calm interaction, of course).


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## Beekissed

You know, Aggie?  I think you are right and I noticed that my girls settled down more each time I "man-handled" them.  

I was reluctant to hold onto them and do anything to them for fear it would create a fear of me in their little sheep minds...but it seems like they grow closer to me each time I have to restrain them for this or that.  

Could it be that handling them for things that do not result in unpleasantness creates a trust with these sheep, and they are less flighty because they get caught, restrained and fussed over?  

Could be that the new ram needs to be caught, fussed over, examined, drenched and just handled so that he understands that I mean no harm.  

Sheep are a lot smarter than folks around here give them credit for, in my book. 

I'm glad that there are others that want pretty animals....it really even pains me to see my chickens during moult.  They are usually so sleek and fluffy....


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## Beekissed

This may be something that only occurs when your pasture is your backyard, but I am seriously getting ganged up on by the sheeple mafia!  

They are very food aggressive most of the time but its getting much worse...they follow me right up to my back door and try to come in the house.   They actually did come in last fall and then busted out the storm door glass as soon as they realized the door had closed behind them.  

I picked a mess of corn yesterday and had prepared it to eat, sat down at the table to eat and had a funny feeling...sort of like someone was watching me....

Glanced over at the back door and saw all three adult ewes and little Fats lined up with their noses pressed to the glass, breathing steam circles with every breath!  It looked like a group of velociraptors ready to pounce!!!  

I didn't know they would become so.... _scary_.


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## ksalvagno

What, aren't you feeding those poor things? Are you actually making them eat grass and stuff and not bringing them out lavish dinners?


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## Baymule

I stayed up last night reading every last page of this post. My eyeballs were about rolled out on my face, but I was determined to read it ALL!! I love your journal, I love the pics, especially the apple trees in bloom. I want sheep. We are still living in town, but have 16 undeveloped acres 3 miles from town. By undeveloped I mean no water or electricity. It is fenced for horses, mostly wooded and full of predators. LOL Building a barn, house, fences, pasture isn't anything that couldn't be cured by throwing money at it. I hope to change jobs soon for mo' Money. Funny you should mention Royal Whites-they are exactly what I want. Then maybe a heritage breed, just because I don't want to see them disappear. Keep the posts coming!!


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## Beekissed

Thanks!!!    I hope you finally get your sheeples....I have such fun with mine!  I'll try to get back to journalling the things I've learned in my research about sheep maladies and husbandry.  I'll also post some more updated pics of my herd....Black Betty is so pretty in her big ol' pregnancy state.  

Yesterday I caught Fats, as he is easy to catch, and loved all over him!    He is so soft and creamy and tubby....sweet guy, that wether.  

A fellow came to see Ugly Betty and the evil little ram yesterday evening...this was not someone who was particularly interested in developing a herd of hair sheep, I could tell.  He was just a...well, we used to call them a horse trader....he goes around trying to scoop up bargains and resells at a higher price. 

Tried to convince me that UB was too expensive, the ram also.  Offered me $50 less than I was asking and acted like he was doing me a favor.....  

Nope.  I told him that I gave tithe at church yesterday and that was all the charity I was giving out this weekend and to try back next Sat. before I go to church again!   

I know the quality of my sheep....I know what they can do, how healthy they are and pretty soon I'll know just how good a mother they are.  Next month I will be having baby sheeples once again!


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## Beekissed

Well, it is time for my first sheep culling.  I really looked over Ugly Betty and this ram today and I really don't think they are worth what I'm asking either....so the horse trader man may have a point.

Ugly Betty is young and healthy, but she must be barren.  She had two months with the ram in April and I know she was having regular heat cycles prior to that time.  I don't believe she is preggers nor is she having a regular heat cycle right now, or the little ram would be trying her on for size. 

She is supposedly due in less than half a month and she has absolutely no udder....flat as a pancake.  Her belly hasn't filled out at all.   

So....she will be taken to the stock auction.  I hate it but it has to happen....no free loaders on this place.  That's my personal and financial policy.  

The ram lamb?  He has an occasional cough.  I noticed his sire had the same thing when I was on the breeder's farm and he said that that ram's sire had the same cough.  So its some kind of genetic thing....I'm sure its not infectious but who in the world wants to pass on a cough gene?  Not I.  

I may band him before he goes to the auction, may not.  What would you all do in that case?   He is filling out and seems very healthy and virile....but that cough.  

So...culling is necessary.  These sheep will be tagged at the auction for butchering only, so I don't worry too much about someone carrying on the ram's genetics.  

And that is the sad part of keeping livestock...sometimes you just have to let go and keep only the good~or lose money.  Who can afford that now days?


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## aggieterpkatie

Do you mind me asking what you were asking for them?  No biggie if you don't want to share.   

Was UB with the ram this past fall?  How long over all was she with the ram? I know they breed out of season, but I just wonder if maybe she's slightly more of an "in season" breeder.  

And here's my $.02 about the auction.  It's generally "buyer beware", so I would not castrate him, and I would not mark them as feeder only.  I might consider marking the ewe feeder only, but only if she was with the ram in the fall and did not get bred.  Your prices would probably decline a good bit I'd imagine, if they were only tagged as feeder only.  

Some might say that's dishonest, but I don't really see it that way.  I mean, it's an auction, and people don't go to auctions for their price winning breeders, KWIM?  If someone came to look at them at my place then I'd definitely give all history on them.


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## Beekissed

Aggie, she was exposed to the ram in April/May and part of June.  She had been a very regular heat cycle kind of gal and she really got interested in the ram when he arrived.  Poor guy was getting tail thrown in his face immediately and often.

She is 17 mo. old and that was her first breeding.  I was asking the usual price for a young ewe that is in lamb....$150.  

I bought the ram for $100 just 3 wks. ago, so his price was just the same.  

They require all sheep without a farm number and tags to be tagged for "slaughter only" at the local auction~called blue tagging....but the auctioneer does tell folks that those tags are on there as a suggestion, not as an order.  They can take them home and "slaughter" at their leisure.  

Most ram lambs of these hair breeds go from $100-$250 around here and young ewes from $150-$200.  

These kind of sheep do not bring a high price at the local auction, as they deal mainly in standard wool breeds.  Most hair sheep breeders go over in VA to sell their stock where they can get $.10 more on the pound than they can if they were selling woollies. 

 Hair sheep bring more there because of the lack of lanolin and resulting strong odor/flavor that lanolin causes ~and the higher percentage of ethnic population there.


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## aggieterpkatie

I certainly think those prices are fair.  

I wonder what's up with her?  I wonder if she's cystic or something?    Don't you hate it that they can't talk to us?    I certainly don't blame you for not wanting to keep her though.  It's best for us with small acreage to maximize our production, and that means keeping animals that pull their weight!

Good luck at the auction!


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## goodhors

Couple questions here.  It sounds like UB has a long tail.  Could this be a possible problem, with constant irritation or source of infection by covering the vulva?  Maybe tail is in the way of ram trying to breed her?  The only sheep tails I remember are fat and heavy, storage areas to keep sheep going in lean grazing.

She might have gotten some dirt internally, when being bred by the ram.  Being in a state of low-grade infection, could be preventing breeding or coming back into heat.  I have seen that happen before with horses.  

For commercial herds, tails are removed so they don't harbor nasty stuff or inhibit breeding.  The tail can catch fluids, hold moist dirt that is a breeding ground for maggots after lambing.  Real easy to introduce infection into the ewe with a dirty tail.  

So these were thoughts I had when reading UB did not get bred.

Are you selenium poor in your local area?  We are here in MI, so added selenium is a must for good breeding and cycling of the reproduction systems.  My main experience is with horses, and lack of selenium with Vit E, can cause MANY issues, one of which is the reproduction cycle.  I have made sure my heifer got extra selenium in her handful of grain, because the grazing and locally grown hay will not provide it to her.  Sheep around here get the White Muscle disease shots to ensure the bodies contain enough Selenium to survive lambing.  Lambs get WM shots after birth to prevent the problems happening.

Horses require the added Vit E to absorb the selenium, so my heifer and our market lambs get that kind of selenium.  Not sure if they really need the Vit E as well, never thought to check up on it!

Anyway, some ideas for you to contemplate regarding her barren state.


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## Beekissed

Here's a pic of the ewe:







And here's the little cougher, Doolley:






We are not in a selenium poor area and I give them BOSS every now and again, plenty of minerals and also I give sea kelp/salt as their loose minerals. 

Her tail is not very long, nor is it full... she actually has a scrunty little tail compared to her flock mates.  Hair sheep tails aren't like woollies...they are very slender and mobile...sort of like a goat's.  These gals hold their tails up when they are bred, nice and away from the area.  Their tails don't have wool so there isn't much in the way of soiled areas there.  

You could be right, though, about the infection....she hasn't really been holding her weight like normal since her breeding.  She is usually my very fat one but right now I would give her a 2-3 on condition.  

She also has been having bouts of loose stool when no other sheep has....I examined her stool and it appeared to have tiny red seeds in it.  She'll go a few days of normal stool and then she will have runny...I don't know if she is getting a certain weed or what.  She has never had loose stool before but has been having it this summer off and on. 

Her eyelids do not show any anemia issues and she has received the same regimen as the rest of my flock.  She has only changed since the breeding, so you could very well be correct on the infection.   

Either way, she is gone.  I want only strong sheep with good immune systems and hardy constitutions.  

Even with the drought, the rest of my flock are sleek and fat...all except her.


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## aggieterpkatie

Goodhors, this is a hair sheep and most hair sheep breeders do not dock.  Their tails won't cause issues when breeding, and like Bee said, they're not wooly like non-hair sheep tails so they don't cause infection or any unsanitary conditions. 

I boarded a katahdin ewe and ram last fall and hadn't had a sheep with a tail before those two.  It was funny to see them run because their tails would whirl around in the air behind them.


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## Beekissed

Aggie, they also lift and shake their tails when they poop.    I always laugh at it and wonder if this makes the sprinkles come out easier?  

After seeing how often these gals shoo flies with their tails, I often wonder how docked sheep get rid of flies?


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Aggie, they also lift and shake their tails when they poop.    I always laugh at it and wonder if this makes the sprinkles come out easier?
> 
> After seeing how often these gals shoo flies with their tails, I often wonder how docked sheep get rid of flies?


Their tails absolutely help them get manure away from their bodies!  In fact, that's one huge reason why ultra-short docks are so bad (in addition to many other problems).  The caudal tail fold (the "web" of skin that goes from the tail to the body) helps direct manure away from the body.  

I took some pictures at the county fair a few weeks ago....ultra short docked lambs. I'm going to start a thread about it...


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## Beekissed

I've read that short docking can cause damage to the sacral plexus resulting in more chance of uterine prolapse and birthing difficulties.  

That is one of the reasons I really liked how hair sheep are traditionally left uncut but I also know people who cut them anyway....they say they get better prices at the market when they do.


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## ALANB

BackBetty will loose some of her wool in the Summer , A good thing !!  Buy yourself a purebred Kathadin Ram and you'r off to a good start .   I've had sheep for 30 years , with the hard ship of having to shear , the expense being more than the price of wool (imported from China) .  Hair sheep are excellent meat animals and the lambs hit the gound running !!  I have had nothing but Hair sheep now for the past 8 years and they bring more mony at the sale also ............... ALANB.


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## Beekissed

Alan, I really like the Katahdins more than the St. Croix and the Dorpers.  I like their gentle nature, their motherliness, their wool/hair quality, their milkiness and their hardiness.  

If I breed again, it will definitely be a Katahdin ram.  Black Betty is bred to a pure Katahdin and will be lambing in Sept.  

I don't really like the squattiness of the Dorpers and I can't see where they have more meat than the Kats unless it would be near the shoulders.  

I agree that the lambs hit the ground running...I will post a more recent pic of my little Kat/St. Croix wether.  He is gentle, meaty, leggy and has a beautiful coat.  I wish now I hadn't banded him as I think he would have made someone a great ram.


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## Beekissed

Here's a pic of my pumpkin harvest, small that it was.  It will definitely help the gals have a variety of high sugar content supplement when they are needing it the most this winter, not to mention the deworming effect of the seeds.






My sheep eat pumpkins like women love chocolate!  Like crack cocaine for sheep, I tell ya!


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## Royd Wood

Beekissed said:
			
		

> My sheep eat pumpkins like women love chocolate!  Like crack cocaine for sheep, I tell ya!


  
Will try feeding mine - didnt know about the seed for worms - thanks for that


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## abooth

Bee how do you feed the pumpkins to them?  My sheep will not learn to like anything I offer them by hand.  Even when I cut up carrots really small and put it in their dinner buckets they leave most of it and it's still there when I collect their bowls in the morning.


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## Beekissed

Mine don't really like carrots either.    These sheep are pretty much eating machines but I found they love pumpkins....I found this out by throwing one out of the garden that was rotten on one side and it shattered.  They jostled and fought to get to the pieces and ate it like it was candy.  

They also love yellow squash but aren't too enamoured with spaghetti squash or some types of winter gourds until they too have been frozen, thawed and started to ferment.  

I also found out they really prefer the pumpkins that way~ frozen and thawed out, starting to ferment.  They attack one like piranhas in a feeding frenzy then....rip!  Rip!  You can hear them ripping it apart as if it were cardboard. 

The seeds contain a chemical that paralyzes worm parasites, causing them to release their hold on the bowel lining and get moved out with the feces.


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## big brown horse

Here is what I found that my sheep like, um LOVE:

In this order:
Pumpkins and their vines (sugar and jack o lantern)
Cabbages, heirloom and purple
Bean sprouts 
Fig leaves and figs
sunflowers and leaves (they loving left me just the bent 6 ft stalks) 
kohlrabis, also heirloom
cilantro
parsley
oregano
not the mint
calendula flowers and leaves (again, I get the stalks) these were a gift from Blackbird by the way...that I started indoors as seeds. 
not the tomatoes thankfully
all lettuces
Egyptian walking onions
regular onions
kale
and
Swiss chards (rainbow variety)

Wasn't that nice of them to clean my garden out for me?   Yup, all in one night....gate is now stronger.  Live and learn I guess...I'm still mad.


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## big brown horse

p.s.  at least they de wormed themselves!


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## Beekissed

Well, took Ugly Betty and the ram lamb to the auction today and it was quite an experience.  I had had someone tell me that the hair sheep wouldn't bring a good price at our most local auction house but I found things to be quite the opposite.  Of course, that info came from the guy that was trying to get my sheep at a low price....now I know why.  

He said I wouldn't get what I was asking for them at the auction...and he was right!  I got less than I was asking for the ewe and way more than I was asking for the ram.  

The biggest price for sheep today was on a pen of Katahdin ram lambs of 7 mo. old.  There were 6 lambs and they went for $984.  I thought that was pretty darn good compared to the woolly breeds that were sold.  Actually, they went higher than any sheep sold today.  

I got $99 for Betty and $130 for the ram.  Betty weighed 95 lbs. and the ram weighed 75 lbs.  I was surprised they weighed that much!  

You goat people would have swooned over the buck goat they had there....I've never seen a more regal, beautiful goat in my life.  I have no idea of the breed but he had huge horns that flowed in a semi curl back and over his shoulders, a full beard and mane, he was white/cream and he was absolutely the biggest goat I'd ever seen in my life!!!    They said he weighed 400 lbs!!!!  

 He actually paced like a good gaited horse into that ring like he was on parade...and then walked right over to the guys standing on the side and put his nose up to be petted!  

And you could smell him a mile away!!!   

Someone bought him for $160....that seems a little low for an animal that beautiful and so darn studly!  

Anyhoo....good day at the auction but it was pretty sad to part with Ugly Betty.  A nuisance all the time she was here but ran to me like a scared pup at the shutes and wouldn't leave my side.  I finally had to gently hold her head to my thigh and lead her into the pen....she had never let me do that before.  It really made me sad....   

Black Betty hasn't raised her head all evening...she just stands with her head down, not eating...just looking at me like I broke her heart.  I'm hoping she will make up to Little Mo and they can become companions like she and Ugly Betty.  

Weird....no one _ever_ told me that sheep are more sensitive than dogs even.  They remember, they mourn and they know things....I'm convinced Ugly Betty knew she was going away forever.  She has never let me touch her like that and has never in her life ran to me for comfort.


ETA:  I looked up breeds of goats and the only one that I found that resembled this magnificent buck was Kashmere?  He did have a glorious medium long coat...didn't appear to be wiry like a normal goat.  And his tail was curled right up over his back.


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## jodief100

Beekissed said:
			
		

> You goat people would have swooned over the buck goat they had there....I've never seen a more regal, beautiful goat in my life.  I have no idea of the breed but he had huge horns that flowed in a semi curl back and over his shoulders, a full beard and mane, he was white/cream and he was absolutely the biggest goat I'd ever seen in my life!!!    They said he weighed 400 lbs!!!!
> 
> He actually paced like a good gaited horse into that ring like he was on parade...and then walked right over to the guys standing on the side and put his nose up to be petted!
> 
> And you could smell him a mile away!!!
> 
> Someone bought him for $160....that seems a little low for an animal that beautiful and so darn studly!


$0.50/lb is normal for adult males at auction.  If people want good prices for thier studs they need to sell them at some other venue.  Either someone got a real good deal or he was too old to really be usefull anymore.  Would have liked to see him though.

Glad you got some good prices for your sheep.  I hope it was an overall positive experience.  Black Betty will be over her mouring soon.  They just need a few days to adjust.


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## aggieterpkatie

I always get sad when I sell an animal, even if I'm selling to a good home where I know they'll be loved.   Hopefully you'll feel better about it in a day or two.  Sheep definitely miss their buddies.  Purl is at the breeders and Darla is still upset about it.  She's in with the ram and my doe, but she still misses Purl.  She's gotten less vocal about it though.  

Funny thing though, I read a study that said sheep can remember individual sheep faces for TWO YEARS!   Which I definitely think is true.  When I took Purl to the breeders, she went right to the flock and was chewing her cud in no time.  No head butts, no big reaction from the flock, nothing.  It was also neat to see how alike she, her mom, and her sisters looked compared to the other ewes.  You can definitely tell who was related.


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## big brown horse

My 5 year old Katahdin ewe sheep was given to me b/c her mother died of old age and she mourned for months.  She loved the pony she was with but he couldn't make her feel better.  They didn't want any more sheep so they gave her to me to keep my other ewe company.

She is better now with my other ewe, however she WONT let that ewe get more than 5 feet away from her side.  She is also very protective of her.

I have no idea why sheep get such a bad rap about "being dumb".  My sheep are so intelligent, I swear they can read my facial expressions and understand body language.

Anyway, sorry for the sad day Bee.  I totally understand, but you did the right thing.

Too bad you didn't get a photo of that handsome buck.


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## Beekissed

Black Betty will be lambing soon...she is starting to bag out a little and has dropped some.  I can't wait to see the offspring out of this union!  

This has been a horrible year for my grass, so no fall fescue on which to flush this ewe....last year at this time she was fat and sassy just on grass.  We have had severe drought conditions in my county since June, so the grass is nearly dead here.  

Folks are starting to feed hay now....last year I didn't have to start feeding hay until the end of November!  I will be going for my winter feed hay by next week or so and will start feeding these sheep some now.  

I guess that is just how things go with farming, wether it is very small farming or large...the weather can throw you a fastball now and again.  :/ 

I've had to feed some BOSS and a little sweet feed each evening for my lactating ewe and this first time lamber....it was not in my plan to have to supplement with grains but my garden didn't grow, so supplemental grains it is for now.  

I put out more loose mineral in the form of sea kelp and salt and they've been hitting it pretty hard.  

Anyone else have a drought year?  Are you feeding hay yet?


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## aggieterpkatie

We've been hit pretty hard this year with the drought, mainly in June.  We got a little rain later in the summer, which helped a little, but now we're back in dry conditions again.  

Luckily I kept my animals off the pasture during the drought and fed them hay.  Now they're back out on pasture and I have a good amount there.  I'm letting the fescue stockpile now, so I hope to be able to graze a good bit into November/December.  I have been feeding a flake of hay every few days so they can eat it as well (the hay is mainly for my dairy doe, but the others eat it as well).  

Good luck with the lambing!


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## abooth

Hi Bee, I am in your neighboring state of Kentucky and it is so dry here.  I have a pic on my fridge from July of my two Cheviot lambs.  They are standing in knee high green grass.  Now when I look outsid eit is brown and barren.  It is supposed to rain all day here but it is sloww in starting.  I have been feeding hay for a few weeks now.  They always have a full haynet in their shelter but I have been sprinkling my better hay around the paddock so they can pretend they are grazing.  I feed supplemental grain because I have a ewe lamb I hope to breed this fall and would like her to reach her target weight when she is 7 or 8 months old.


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## Beekissed

Same here...starting to look like Texas here.    I've never seen it this dry in the mountains.  I'm going to start feeding hay next week or so....much to my dismay.  I really like to finish the year on fall fescue as it seems to make them so chubby going into winter and seems to really sustain them.....won't be able to this year at all unless we get some frequent, miraculous rains.


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## Beekissed

I'll be selling my lovely sheeples soon and so will be ending this sheep journal.  I am writing a book on homesteading and how to make do this winter and need to concentrate on it fully.  

Keeping hair sheep has been an education and a treat.  I love everything about them.  A lady at church bought a small flock when she got acquainted with mine, so I will be selling my girls to her.  They will have a nice green valley in which to romp and rest. 

Oh, how I will miss their funny faces!


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## aggieterpkatie

Aw, I'm sorry to hear that!


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## abooth

I will miss your sheep journal.  It has been my favorite part of this forum.


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## Beekissed

Thank you, Abooth!  That means so much!  I will tell you this...I am writing a book on homesteading and just hillbilly make do kind of stuff and will be including a chapter on raising small livestock on small acreage.

I'm taking time off raising animals and just life in general to develop a website and blog to discuss aspects of the book to see if there is enough interests in the content.  I'll post links to it here when I get it up and running. 

The book will be titled Hillbilly Women and What We Know.  It will be sort of a how to book on making do in a practical way and how to raise a family on the cheap.  When I was growing up we homesteaded off grid and we learned so much...and I'm still learning.  

I'll have step by step pics on how to process chickens, gut and skin deer or small livestock, how to make bread, cook on a woodstove, grow a garden, clip chicken wings, dose a sheep, trim hooves, etc....simple stuff really but seems to be a lot of folks wanting to learn it right now and don't have a grandma around to show them.  

It will really be a book about women and for women, so I'm hoping that the book will garner interest from all the women who are now trying to find economical ways to raise a family by getting into growing their own foods. 

Sound like anything you all would find interesting?  

There will be lots of pics of my life as a youngster on the homestead, more pics of what we learned since then and I hope to follow this book with one about the new generation of hillbilly women...their suburban/country life and would like to showcase women all over the US who are doing their own kind of homesteading...but without the actual homestead. 

One chapter on goats~women who raise them, milk them, make their own cheeses, etc.  Best breeds for a small holding.

One on sheep for fiber, milk and for meat and the women who are now getting into sheep.  Best breeds for each.  

Chickens definitely and the ins and outs of owning them while living in zoned areas and the difference in backyard chickens lives. 

Frugal lifestyles and how folks are managing in a hard economical landscape.  

It should be fun and informative and help others develop their own skills in this area.


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## abooth

I would be very interested in a book like that.  Good luck with your new adventure!


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## Beekissed

Well, after some long hard thought and many tears, I've decided I can't lose my girls.  Will be fixing up winter pen and feeding station after next week and reseeding all pastures and garden plots.  

I can't lose my gals....for some reason for which I do not know, these sheep have become quite dear to me.  I feel a special bond with them, much like the one I have with my dogs.  Funny..... :/

So....for now, the sheeples will stay!  

I took a look at where they would be boarded for the winter and, though it was nice and they would have other healthy sheep with which they will reside, they would be in a winter pen just like here.  Six of one, half dozen of the other really.  

Anyone ever use bark mulch to keep winter penning drier and more solid footing than mud?  If so, how did that work out?


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## goodhors

Because bark is a natural product, it will be breaking down over time.  With busy sheep hooves churning it up, that may be faster than you think.

Horse folks in some areas have experimented with bark mulch for footing in riding areas.  All said they cursed later, as footing turned into a slippery slurry with use.  It actually got to be WORSE footing with the mulch, than it ever was just riding on frozen ground.  Again, the bark was breaking down while wet, trying to turn back into dirt.

A suggestion for your shelter, maybe some of the pen area, would be using stall mats.  You could lay the mats, put bedding, mulch over them, and clean off the wet stuff every week or so, add to your compost pile.  Then spread new bedding, whatever you choose.  I have used the mats for covering some AWFUL mudholes, and it works pretty well, you only sink a little!  Sheep are not much weight on the mats, and things should stay in place pretty well over the season.  Mats let you scrape up bedding easily, give the animals a dry base place to lay down and insulates them from ground cold pulling heat out of them.

I know mats are not cheap, but sometimes they are on sale.  Sometimes you can find mats used at lower prices.  I think having mats allows you to have a better stall area with good footing, able to keep it both clean and neat with bedding removal.  Can't do that on dirt, especially ROUGH frozen dirt!

Another mat alternative is the foam puzzle mats that interlock for kids.  Come in packages of 1ft or 2ft squares.  You lock them together for a big mat, put that on the ground and bed over.  These mats are much lighter weight, so they might move around under the animals.  Not rubber, so a fork might poke holes in them.  Actually not much cheaper either, for the footage they cover.  Handling them in squares is easier than solid stall mats.  They do come in bright colors!

So I would probably not use bark mulch as bedding unless it was over a mat so I could clean it out regularly.  Any mud you have normally, will be much increased and end up as nastier stuff with the mulch as a cover.  Sheeps could end up to their knees or higher, in muck stuff.  Then you have hoof and skin problems because they never dry out.


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## aggieterpkatie

Why do you need to put them in a winter pen?  I take it to mean that's going to be a smaller area than where they are now?  Aren't they roaming your yard?  

If you do use bark, I'd try to find a mill that has large pieces. It'll take much longer to bread down than regular old flowerbed shredded mulch.  

Perhaps you can do some grading in their pen to help water drain away quickly?

ETA: I've also seen/heard of people using pallets as walking areas in heavily travelled paths.  You may need to do some minor work to move slats closer together so hooves can't slip through, but many times you can find free pallets from warehouses, so it's just a little elbow grease involved.


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## Beekissed

Aggie, I really need to get them off this grass in the winter and give it a rest.  Especially after this year.....I really overgrazed here, with the drought and all.  I plan to reseed some more drought tolerant varieties and need to keep the sheep from damaging any new growth until it gets established.  

I like to place them in the winter pen for this reason and for keeping all the trampled mud in one place, as well as the manure.  

The pen they will be in has great drainage, as it is on a mild slope...but it does still tend to get a little mushier than I would like right outside the shelter of the lean-to.  This soil of mine is so very fine textured and has little clay to bind it....it just turns into a silty mush with the least amount of moisture.  

I'm planning on extending their shelter with the use of hooped cattle panels and tarping to eliminate this problem.  I'm thinking that providing more area of shelter will fix this problem.  

I'll take pics of it when I'm done with the whole project and see what you all think.  You won't be impressed with the beauty of the place but please try to focus on the utilitarian side of it.....   

It might help if I explain that I rent this place and I'm trying to make a minimal mark on the place in regards to permanent structures.  I don't want to spend much here and the existing buildings are ancient and leaning like drunken sailors....I really can't hurt the looks of the place but I need to conserve space and keep down costs.  

Nearly everything I've used thus far has been recycled materials and seconds lumber.  It ain't pretty but it blends well with the existing structures and it gets the job done.  

Goodhors, thanks for the info on the bark.  I have a mat of sorts in front of the coop door that has worked wonders for that area.  It is a woven sheet of stainless steel~like a mesh~ that was scrounged from somewhere....it has been a lifesaver!  

I can get more of these if necessary....they are heavy but they do not deteriorate and the grass grows up in between the holes.


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## aggieterpkatie

I do something similar to what you're planning on doing. I make a sacrifice lot for them with temporary fencing.  Luckily it has pretty good cover (bermuda grass) so the majority of the area doesn't get too muddy.  I do tend to get a little mud right in front of their shelter and near the gate.  There really isn't much I can do about it.  I re-bed their shelter as needed, and I move their outside hay feeder around so it doesn't cumulate in one area, and I also move the water trough around.  

Mud isn't a huge issue unless they can't get away from it. If you make sure their feeding and bedding areas are dry, they should be ok.  If they have to stand in mud to eat, that's when they start to have issues.  


And nobody worries about how pretty a place is!  Well, nobody that's raising animals for production, at least.


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## aggieterpkatie

Oh, and if you want to seed somethign I'd do it as soon as possible!! It's getting late for most things now.  Of course, it hasn't helped that we've been short on rain.  

I'm planning on seeding some wheat in part of the pasture this weekend.  It should grow fast enough to get at least 1 grazing this fall/winter, and it'll come up quick next March when the other grasses are still dormant.


----------



## goodhors

Those metal mats sound like a good deal for making "a bottom" to the mud!  Bark on top, cleaned off regular, should keep the sheeps drier, healthier and clean.  Just having a firm bottom, makes it so MUCH easier to clean up.  And if you choose later to move, the mats can come right up to go with you.  Around here, metal anything is pretty expensive, so it would not be something I considered.  Of course bend down any sharp edges, so they stick down into the dirt.

This is a very interesting concept, you will have to tell us how it works out!!  Much more stable under busy little hooves than the geotextile fabric with bedding above, easier to clean the bedding away.

I have found the multiple prong metal forks work well in fiber bedding to fork it up from the pile.  I got 10tine forks, since the old 6tine fork just let the wood fiber fall between.  The 10tine is also great for straw bedding over rubber mats.  Handles the load well.  The plastic sawdust forks just can't do straw bedding or break up my pile of fiber bedding to load the wheelbarrow.  They are good for just picking poops out of the fiber, getting wet spots on the mats in the stalls.  The right tool for every job!

Here is a picture of one like I have:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/lawn-g...ranch-10-tine-manure-and-bedding-fork-4413085

I got my metal 10tine forks at the horse auction barn, when they sell the halters and ropes.  Lots cheaper than from the store.  I also use them for wood mulching my shrubs and plants.


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## Beekissed

I don't know what these mesh panels were for but a friend has some that I can have if I wish.  They are heavy but I've had one in front of my coop door for 3 years now and it is wonderful.  

Yeah, I'm going to seed some winter wheat and orchard grass on the garden plots and winter pen this evening and will over seed some Kentucky bluegrass and white clover seed next week on the rest of the lawn.  Supposed to be the most drought resistant and hardy for regrowth varieties.


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## abooth

Um... I haven't been back because I thought there was no more sheep journal.  Boy am I excited to hear you are keeping your sheep!!!  I love mine too and they are just non producing pets that I will never make money off of.  Though I'd like to get one lamb from my ewe each year to sell to offset some of the hay costs.


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## Beekissed

Abooth, I really started this journal so we could have one place to look for sheep info, links and such.  Us sheeple are in such a minority on this board that it benefits us all to be able to learn from each other. 

I couldn't bear to close it out and not add to it, even if I never had sheep again.  I just love learning about the different breeds and how folks care for them.  I'd love to have a sheep breeds info sticky on the top of our section, along with deworming methods, feed info, etc.   

I have learned so much already from you, Aggie and the others!  

Black Betty is still preggers~I can't wait to see what her first lamb looks like!  We have been getting plenty of rain but not enough, I think, to help my fall grasses.  I will be getting hay this next week and will be starting to feed hay, set up the winter pen and get my feeding stations all figured out.

Can't wait!!!!


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## Beekissed

Will be finishing the sheep winter pen this week and have had a blessing in regards to feed.

Hay has been scarce around here due to the severe drought and many farmers didn't get a second cut, not to mention the first cut was burnt brown by the time it was harvested.  All the hay I had called about was gone...snatched up by cattle farmers.  

The people I had dealt with last year was supposed to reserve some of their second cut, but they didn't get one.  

I was starting to feel a little desparate.  Then a fellow from church who caretakes a farm offered to give me about 30 bales of last years second cut!    

That is all the hay I will need as I also have about 25 bales of first cut, roughage type hay for spring feeding~my sheep really seem to need the stemmier, less nutritious hay in the spring to balance their rumen.  I placed this in the back of the barn and will put the good winter feed hay out front. 

I also kept all my sweet corn on the stalk and stored the stalks for winter fodder...the sheep love this.  I grew pumpkins for winter feed also and will store apples for the sheep for later on as well.  

I plan to place the apples here and there in the hay bales so they can "forage" them as they come to them.  Same with the corn stalks.  The pumpkins will be frozen, then thawed, as this seems to convert the starch to sugar and makes it a better treat for the girls.  

Black Betty is still holding onto that lamb and shows no signs of being close.  She has now found a friend to replace Ugly Betty....she has been letting a little RIR pullet ride around on her back!!!  I will get a pic when next I see them...its a hoot!  

I'll also take a pic of the winter pen temporary shelter I rigged....don't laugh when you see it, nor pity me my poverty.


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## FarmerDenise

WE have got to get a pic of the hen riding on Black Betty!!!

I hope I can SO to let me keep our sweet corn stalks for our goats. I used to glean all the dried sweet corn for the chickens and give the stalks to the neighbor for his goats. 

Sorry to be talking about goats, but that's what I have. 
I love reading about the sheeples. Every time I see some for sale, I want to run out and get them


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## Beekissed

Denise, I think you would love them!  I don't know how it happened or when, but these sheep have stolen my heart....especially Black Betty.  She has such a noble head and clear eye and she is so very gentle and wise.  

I never knew I would feel this way about them.  Funny how life turns out!  

I will try to snap a pic of the two but it only seems to happen at times when I do not have a camera handy....isn't that the way it goes?  I awakened the Bat the other morning and had her look out the window so I could get a witness!   

She was just as tickled as I was!


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## FarmerDenise

My critters do that to me too. They strike some really cute or bizzare pose, I run into the house to get the camera and they do boring stuff again. 
Then I walk around with the camera for an hour or two, getting pictures of the corn growing....

I wish I had a barn and just a wee bit more land and maybe lived in the country....

At least I got what I got. And I love my goats, and dog and chickens and funny bunny and kitty cats.


----------



## Beekissed

Got my winter hay!     

Now...if I could just squeeze that lamb out of that sheeple....


----------



## Beekissed

Still haven't had a lamb from Black Betty but she is hanging mighty low right now....any day.... 

Here is an updated pic of Fats(aka Slo-Mo), at 3.5 mo. and his mother, Mo:


----------



## abooth

Nice pic.  Fingers crossed for an easy lambing for Betty!


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Mo sure is getting mo' big!


----------



## Beekissed

You know?  He is so much bigger than the Bettys when they were 5 months old and he is only 3.5 mo.  Not sure why that is but he is a great lamb.  

Aggie, Black Betty has been having a real snotty nose and an occasional cough.  I've looked up the symptoms and they suggest she might have fly bots, which is reasonable for the time this started.  

I found a great website where a lady has managed this by using garlic but its purely anecdotal.  The first time she encountered it she used an Ivermectin drench, which is the recommended treatment.  

I'd like to go with the garlic first, as I haven't bolused my sheep for some time and they are due.  I'd also like to use a garlic and saline nasal flush~I'd make sure her head was down, of course~does this sound like it may help?  

Here is the website article:

http://www.skylinesfarm.com/parasitenasalbots.htm


----------



## abooth

Bee maybe I misunderstood the article ( and I know you weren't asking me) but it sounds like once the sheep were showing symptoms she felt compelled to use the Ivomec and the garlic was purely preventative.  That is my take on the info provided.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> You know?  He is so much bigger than the Bettys when they were 5 months old and he is only 3.5 mo.  Not sure why that is but he is a great lamb.
> 
> Aggie, Black Betty has been having a real snotty nose and an occasional cough.  I've looked up the symptoms and they suggest she might have fly bots, which is reasonable for the time this started.
> 
> I found a great website where a lady has managed this by using garlic but its purely anecdotal.  The first time she encountered it she used an Ivermectin drench, which is the recommended treatment.
> 
> I'd like to go with the garlic first, as I haven't bolused my sheep for some time and they are due.  I'd also like to use a garlic and saline nasal flush~I'd make sure her head was down, of course~does this sound like it may help?
> 
> Here is the website article:
> 
> http://www.skylinesfarm.com/parasitenasalbots.htm


Hmm, I'm not sure if a nasal flush would work.  I've never done it on an animal.  I'd imagine it would be hard to keep them from inhaling through the nose while being flushed, and I'd be afraid that would lead to problems.


----------



## Beekissed

abooth said:
			
		

> Bee maybe I misunderstood the article ( and I know you weren't asking me) but it sounds like once the sheep were showing symptoms she felt compelled to use the Ivomec and the garlic was purely preventative.  That is my take on the info provided.


Yeah...I gathered that part.  But was wondering if it works as a preventative, might it also work as a treatment?  If the fly bots dislike the garlic taste of the blood/tissues, maybe it would kill it in some way?  How would the garlic prevent them if it wasn't a deterrent in some way?  

I'd really, really like to NOT use Ivermectin.  I'm not so convinced of its all-purpose use for everything....seems like all the vets want you to practically give it IV to all these animals.  

Every time they come up with a wonder drug like this in the human field of medicine we find out a few years later that it had devastating and long term side affects.


----------



## Beekissed

Here are a few pics of one of my new LGDs in training...introducing my new Newfie mix, Dewley.  His sister, Shane, will be arriving tomorrow.


----------



## ksalvagno

What adorable puppies. Makes me want to get some! 

I have no idea about the fly bots but there are things that only work as a preventative and doesn't work once they have the problem. The only example I have is Meningeal Worm in alpacas. Ivomec works to prevent it but Safeguard works when they have it. I guess all you can do is try it and see if it works.


----------



## Beekissed

Yes...I was thinking the same thing.  I will definitely document results.  I just need to wait until next week for my muscle to get here so I can strong arm these sheep into submission and treatment.  

Got Shane today and she is bigger, more quiet and sweeter than her brother.  I think this one will turn out to be MY dog.  

She rode quietly in the seat beside me and snuggled up to me and slept when we got home.  She ate like a pig, was very aggressive about hogging the food bowl and then went right back to sleep. 

Didn't like her bath but cleaned up nicely...she is certainly a beautiful dog.


----------



## Beekissed

Well...had to put down my dear friend, Lucy, today so that she wouldn't be in pain any longer.  The Earth is short one great LGD today.   

Her companion, Jake, is sad and still....still for the first time in his life.  The new pups try to make him play but he is not in the mood for fun.  

Placed the sheeples in the winter pen today and they aren't a bit happy about it.  They do love their new sheeple breezeway that I constructed from cattle panels and tarps...it ain't pretty but they sure do love it.  Will post pics tomorrow, maybe.  

I still don't have a lamb and I'm wondering if this sheep is even pregnant.  If not, why did neither young ewes get bred by this 2 yr. old ram?  He has many, many fine offspring to his credit, so he is proven.  Actually, I own one of his daughters right now and she is a great sheep.  

On a happy note, the treatment I did on the sheeples for extreme snotty noses has been a success.....no messy noses yet.  Just the old standby of unpastuerized ACV and garlic~really upped the dose of garlic this time~ drench and then I flushed out nostrils with normal saline and applied Vicks up inside each nostril.  

Trimmed hooves and checked eyelids against the FAMACHA color chart and all is well.  The fall fescue has done its magic and the sheeples are fat as ticks going into the winter.  The hay is arranged for self-feeding with minimal wasting and heated water bucket is in place and full.  

Will be storing crates of apples and many pumpkins in the broody pen for winter feeding.  

The new generation of LGD have been installed in the "big dog" shed, along with Jake.  They will be learning the laws of livestock guarding from a good teacher....not quite as good as Lucy about watching for hawks but still a stone cold killer on four legs.  

The new generation...yeah, I know they ain't the typical LGD breed but I think they can provide some level of protection in their own way.  We only have an acre of fenced land to defend!


----------



## ksalvagno

The pups are really growing. Always hard to say why females don't get pregnant. It is sounding more and more like she may not have been pregnant but who knows. 

I'm sorry about Lucy. Sounds like she was a wonderful dog and had a wonderful life with you.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

I'm sorry about Lucy. 


I'm guessing maybe your girls didn't cycle when they were in with the ram.  I've read several things saying they're non-seasonal breeders, but I've also read some things saying they're long seasonal breeders.  Maybe it was just the wrong time.  Though I do have a friend that had a katahdin (or dorper, can't remember) ewe breed in July for Thanksgiving babies.


----------



## Beekissed

I am getting a ram in here near the last of this month and I'm hoping they take then....I can't imagine another year without lambs.  

Thanks, guys, for the hugs....Lucy was a grand dog!  She never let me down, was always cheerful and loving, ever vigilant and ready for action.  I loved her so much.   

We found her on a farm where someone had moved away and left her tied on a 5 ft. chain to a dog box.  The neighbors were stopping by to feed her.  She already had teeth worn down in the front even then, so we had no way of knowing how old she really was....if I had to guess I would have said around 5 or 6 years.

We have had her now for 8 years and there will be a huge empty place in our lives with her gone.  I used to take her to work with me and all the old people loved her!  Lucy loved to travel and loved all people....never got enough petting to suit her and you had to continue if you started it at all....she would nudge your hand and _make_ you!

She wasn't just a LGD to us...before there was that, she was just a friend, family member, a confidant and a warm place to lay down your troubles, spend some extra love and for company when you were down.  She was at our side on trips, on work days, on days by the fire and when we laid out under the stars. 

We had such a love!    Some people and some animals just leave their mark when they pass through this world.  I've been lucky enough to have had two such dogs in my life....angels in fur, watching over me and my heart, ready to serve, ready to soothe.  

How blessed am I?  

Old Lucy and her shadow, Jake:


----------



## goodhors

What is the other half on the puppies?  I have met a number of Nefies and they were all bark, then quite friendly.  Big enough to handle predators, but not sure if they would be inclined that way.

Photos of pups are sure cute!!  Always nice to have a dog you don't have to bend over to pet!!

Not sure if you have read up on the latest in dog nutrition, but bigger breeds often need extra calcium for the big bones.  Our family used dry milk on the dog food, to gain the extra calcium.  Our breed choices of German Shepherd, Bouvier, all had lovely teeth and strong bones as grown dogs.  We have added the dried milk both as liquids or just the powder on dry food.  We also fed them like puppies (Purina Puppy Chow) beyond recommended time of one year.  Bigger dogs take longer to grow up!  Most were fed as puppies until about 20 months, but your Newfies will be even larger dogs than mine.

Some breeds don't do well on milk in diets, so you might need to experiment a bit, or ask Vet about Calcium pills as a supplement.  Needed to do that pill addition with one female with puppies.  She didn't like the milk, so would not eat enough to replace her calcium while nursing.  She actually got wobbly, from calcium loss!  Vet advised the calcium pills at that time.  Just popped them down her throat each day until pups were sold.  Years ago when my mom first started the dry milk it was a fairly cheap additive, not so much now.  Still a good product, does a great job on fast-growing puppies!  I should have my current dog smile for you, great teeth!

Sorry about Lucy, but a new puppy or two is a great distraction for you.  Takes your mind off your loss.  Young pups are SO CUTE and yours look like they are really high on the cuteness scale!


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## aggieterpkatie

Awww, I just want to hug her!


----------



## Beekissed

I've been feeding these pups on pup chow and buttermilk, with the occasional raw egg thrown in for added protein.  They love the buttermilk and it hasn't upset their digestion any so far, so I will continue to do so for a good while.  The cultures will be good for their digestion also, I would think.  

They will be getting some addition of raw meat to their diets this winter as I thin my layer flock and if hunting season goes well.   

The other half of these pups is Visla, a Hungarian bird hunting breed.  So my Newfies might not get to the normal Newfie size due to Mom's smaller stature.


----------



## goodhors

Well that is not a cross you run into often!  I would expect leggy, but maybe not the bulk of straight Newfie.  Probably good movers with the bird dog action. 

The buttermilk sounds excellent, especially if you have it on hand.  We were city dwellers when we started the dry milk, so much cheaper then, than liquid store milk.  Even us kids drank dry milk, the price spread was so big.  We ALSO have very good teeth!!

The meat and puppy chow are a good plan.  We heard of other German Shepherd dogs with digestive problems on milk.  None of our own dogs ever had problems with milk in their diets.  I think some extra cultures, eggs in feeding are usually a good addition to puppy diet.  We fed meat as well back then, scraps from the butcher shop.  As fast growing as big puppies are, they use the protien well.


----------



## Beekissed

These pups were not getting enough nutrition when I got them and they eat like they are starving, even yet. 

 Its tempting to feed, feed, feed them until that wolfing down the food thingy disappears but everything I've read about Newfies says to not give into that temptation, as their bones cannot take the added stress of being overweight when they are growing. 

Still....I just can't bear to think of them feeling hungry and probably feed them a little too much right now.  Just until they get some weight on their ribs......  

I thought the same thing about their breeding....oughta be interesting to see what they look like later on!


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## goodhors

You might want to do worm checks on the pups, get anything cleared up.  Puppies seem to get worms in a heartbeat.

You probably will NOT get ribs covered until pups are LOTS OLDER.  None of our pups ever had fat layers over the ribs and they had excellent care.  Just like with children, foals, you WANT the ribs to be feelable, just a thin layer of muscle over it.  They will feel ribby, which is fine if you KNOW they are getting correct amounts of the right kind of food.  Thinner kids, foals, pups, mean they run and play more, develop better without the poundage on young, SOFT bones.  Soft bones, joints, can't manage the stress of weight impact well.  You pay later when dog gets crippled up with joint damage at young ages.

Our young horses have a "racehorse look" until they mature at ages 7 or so.  You glimpse a couple ribs when they bend, bellies are neatly tucked up, very trim looking.  It is unhealthy for young horses to be fat, too much weight for their bones, also breakdown young.  But fat is a sign of successful advertising, photos we see the most.  Now we EXPECT all our animals to be fat from birth to death, even though we KNOW fat is unhealthy for them.  Ours are big horses, take longer to grow up, get hard bones and joints as mature animals.  Skinny kids also take a long time to grow up, so we need to keep their weight down on those young bones when they play so hard.  This was why I brought up the need to feed such large breeds their puppy food with extra nutrition, so much longer than just 12 months.  Dog is not mature at one year old!

Keeping the pups worm free, fed adequate amounts on schedule, will insure they are getting enough to grow with.  Ribby is fine, healthier for the dog.  Good coat, shiny eyes, plenty of energy, those are signs of good diet.  Fat, lumpy puppies who sit about, have a bunch of problems ahead.

I have found the cow hooves at the pet stores are great for chewing with young dogs.  For some reason dogs don't barf with the purchaed hooves, like farrier trimmings after horse is trimmed.  I could not keep the proper raw bones on hand for my last pup, so the cow hooves worked VERY well.  She still likes them a lot and they last for more than a day!  She is a Bouvier, has very strong jaw so most bones are gone fast.


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## Beekissed

I wormed them as soon as they hit this door...you wanna see the monsters that rolled out????   

I'd never had pups this small and had never seen this type of worm in any of my animals before...the most we have had are pinworm-type worms. 

These came out within an hour and a half of the deworming: 







This pup had a total of 3 bunches just like this of approx. 50  3-4 in. worms per bowel movement.  I called the place I got him and told them so they could worm their dogs.  

Wormed at 4 wks. and again at 7 wks. to see if we got most of the monsters within.

These pups seem pretty active and bright-eyed....I'll try not to make them too fat.  Right now it seems as if they are burning off most of what they eat....no rolly-polly tummies by feeding time.


----------



## jhm47

I can't believe you actually took pictures of these, but thanks a lot---it ruined my appetite for tonight!

Ascarids (commonly known as large roundworms) are very common in dogs.  Puppies are actually infested in utero, and are born with them.  Kittens can actually contract them from their mother's milk.  Humans are also not immune, and it is a common parasite among third world countries.  

There are many effective treatments for them, and one of the most common and cost-effective is Ivomec.


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## Beekissed

I used Strongid paste...pyrantel pamoate.  I worm all my nonfood animals with horse wormer as it is the cheapest per volume.  I can get a whole tube for around $8 and it last a long time. 

I took the pics to show my sis...she got one of these pups too.  I hadn't seen anything like this from any pet I'd ever owned, so I thought a _pic for posterity_....


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## goodhors

Do NOT use the Ivermectins (read ingredients in wormer on labels) for any of the Collie breeds or Collie mixes.  You need to read the labels, to know what is in the wormer, not just the name brand.  

For some reason the Collie breeding will react VERY badly to Ivermectin, with many dying after ingestion at horse barns.

This can include licking up ANY wormer meds your horse drools out when you worm him!  DO NOT let the dog be in the barn while worming horses, so you can clean the floor of dribbles before dog licks them up.

All the horse forums repeatedly post about the Ivermectin/Collie problem on worming day, especially after losing their dog to dribbled wormer.  For some reason the Collie blood makes the dog react very badly to miniscule amounts of wormer.  Horse Ivermectin meds are not good for any dog, but pretty fatal to dogs with Collie blood.


----------



## Beekissed

No worries...I wouldn't use Ivermectin on any of my animals.


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## Beekissed

Well, the self-feeding hay storage idea is really taking off right now and working well.  No waste as of right now.  I will have to monitor just how they eat into the stack and move the hay down accordingly, maybe. 

Right now I have two that are eating at their level and lower and one that is standing on her hind legs and eating higher.  I don't particularly like that as I've heard it can lead to prolapse, so I may mount a strip of tin across the top as a deterrent to this behaviour.  

Anyone else doing self-feeding stations where you don't have to move/lift bales of hay this winter?  

My self-feeder consists of a cattle panel fitted tightly across the hay in my shed, then I cut the strings on the bales.  As they eat into the stack, I will tighten the panel into it.  

The idea is to let them eat through the cattle panel to eliminate waste and to keep me from having to slog through their pen to feed fresh hay every day. This is the first time I've tried this idea and I hadn't seen anyone else doing this, so I'm hoping it works.


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## freemotion

My goats would pull all the hay that they could reach into their pen on the first day and pee on it, then look at me like, "We're starving!  Feed us!!!!" 

I hope it works well.  It is a great idea.  Don't you think your girls will get fat?  Or were you offering hay free-choice before this?

I had to make a bunch of hay bags with tiny openings since my girls were really wasting (see above comment!) the leafy third cut hay I got this year.  It seems to be working.  I run out and hang hay bags for an hour, then go out later and feed and milk.  While Mya is finishing up her larger serving of grain and veggies, I gather up all the empty bags and refill them for the next feeding.  So far, so good.  Lots of work, though, but less money spent on...bedding.


----------



## Beekissed

I was more or less offering free choice before, just putting out a hay bunker full and waiting until they ate it before refilling.  I didn't put a cover over it after awhile, but found that they loved to climb into the bunker and sleep...and pee...and poop.   

So...I was having to lift a cover, carry and lift a hay bale into the bunker, remove the twine and close and tie the cover over the bunker.  

My back is getting worse, so hefting those hay bales and such was getting old.  So, I got to thinking...what would Joel do?  He'd find a better way, that's what!  

These gals are already fat!    This hay isn't primo hay, so I doubt they will get overly fat on it.  I don't think the squares in the cattle panel will allow too much hay to be pulled out at a time, plus the panel is pretty tight against the hay, so I haven't seen very much waste yet.  They can only pull out small mouthfuls at a time.  

I'll try to post a pic of it tomorrow.


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## aggieterpkatie

I've read of others doing that, but I haven't personally done it.  I think it's a great idea!  I don't really have a way to do that unless I move my hay shed into their pasture, so I just carry what they need twice a day, which is usually only a couple flakes each time.


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## Beekissed

Here is a pic of my self-feeding setup:







They seem to be feeding throughout the area of the stack, which is a relief.  I was afraid they would eat a few deep holes here and there and I would have to shift some hay to be able to keep the cattle panel firmly across the stack.


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## freemotion

Cool!  What is the jug hanging on the right of the pic?


----------



## Beekissed

That is a 5 gal. jug I've cut the side out of to hold my loose minerals.  I use sea kelp and coarse salt for minerals.  This keeps it dry when it is in the pasture...I usually just tie it to a tree. 

On the other side of the shed, you can just barely see a black thingy...that is a hanging/hooked bucket that is just the right size for a mineral block.  Sometimes I change things up and get a sheep/goat block.


----------



## abooth

That is awesome.  I have been trying to work out some sort of manger/hay rack to throw a few bales in.  Right now I just use a haynet and I have to fill it every day or every other day.  I may try out something like what you've got there.  Maybe I could use just some welded wire fencing.  I have some that has 2" by 4" holes.  Would that be enough for them to grab the hay through you think?


----------



## Beekissed

I think that would work better than the bigger squares of the cattle panels...but you'd have to keep it pretty tight against the hay, I'm thinking.  

I know someone who uses cattle panels around a round bale and just tightens it as they eat further in and the bale diminishes.


----------



## abooth

Cool, my brother is coming today for Thanksgiving.  He is not farm inclined but I plan to get him to help me build something for my hay.  Can I post a pic on your thread once I get it done?  Is that trespassing or anything? lol


----------



## Beekissed

Most definitely, Abooth!! 

 I had originally hoped that this thread would be a learning thread about sheep....please post your pics and any other things you pick up or know that helps the rest of us learn more!!!


----------



## Beekissed

abooth said:
			
		

> Cool, my brother is coming today for Thanksgiving.  He is not farm inclined but I plan to get him to help me build something for my hay.  Can I post a pic on your thread once I get it done?  Is that trespassing or anything? lol


So....did you get your hay feeder built?  I'd love to see it!!


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## SDGsoap&dairy

I like that!  It's very similar to something we've been working on with round bales.  Do you get a pretty good deal on the square bales?  We didn't have any way to pick up the rounds but back in September we found a guy just a few miles away who will deliver only two at a time (that's about all we can store under the roof) since he's so close.  We're still supplementing with square bales of alfalfa but at $35/4X5 round (including delivery charge) it's really helped to cut down on cost.  It would fit nicely in your feeder!


----------



## abooth

So I built a hay feeder myself and it came out pretty good.  I will take a pic of it in a little bit here when I go out to feed.


----------



## abooth

Here is my hay feeder.  The bottom is about 8 inches of the ground and it angles away from the wall.  I had been using a hay net but it needed to be filled every other day and I am going out of town in January and want the sheep to be very easy to take care of.  My mom is watching them for me while I'm gone.

  The boards are 1 by 4's and they are spaced about 4 inches apart.  I had all the wood hanging around so I didn't have to buy a thing.  I fit a bale of hay in there but I think I can set a whole bale on top after I fill it so while I'm gone they can eat it down and my mom can just cut open the bale on top once they have eaten a bit.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

I'll bet your mom will appreciate that!


----------



## Beekissed

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I like that!  It's very similar to something we've been working on with round bales.  Do you get a pretty good deal on the square bales?  We didn't have any way to pick up the rounds but back in September we found a guy just a few miles away who will deliver only two at a time (that's about all we can store under the roof) since he's so close.  We're still supplementing with square bales of alfalfa but at $35/4X5 round (including delivery charge) it's really helped to cut down on cost.  It would fit nicely in your feeder!


I really caught a deal on my hay this year and got it for $2 a bale.  It isn't choice hay but it was the only hay available at the time....all the farmers snatched up all the hay around here as quick as folks made it.  We had a very bad winter last year and a horrible drought this year....this all resulted in a rush on whatever hay that was available this year.  

The sheep seem to be really getting/staying fat on it, so it must not be too bad.  

Abooth, that is a good looking feeder!!!  Pretty professional looking, I might add.  

You might want to add a hinged topper to it, so you can lift it up, put in your bale and close it once again.  

I only tell you this because I had a similar hay feeder last year and the sheep found it a delightful place in which to bed down, poop and pee.  They climbed right into it, the little brats!  

That is the main reason I switched up....no more lifting that bale into the feeder and then trying to keep the hay from being ruined by the sheep.  

I had built mine much like yours in that it could hold a bale at a time.


----------



## abooth

Thanks for the advice on covering the top.  But I think it is too high for them to get into and they show no inclination to do so.  Also the hay rack serves a second purpose...my easter egger pullet just started laying and she lays her egg in there.  It is one of the only places she can leave her egg where the sheep can't step on it.  I had thought of making it a little higher to hold more hay.  Maybe if the sheep start climbing in there I'll raise the height to keep 'em out.


----------



## Beekissed

Gotcha on the chicken nest!  I allow my birds to keep a few "secret" nests in the hay also, just as long as I can reach them easily!  

Darn things have started using my sheep as a trampoline to propel themselves into the higher stacks of hay.....


----------



## Beekissed

Sheep are still doing well with this feeder.  They seem very fat and well contented and I'm not losing hardly any hay...this is all good! 

This icy wind is wicked and makes our 16 degree weather feel like 6.  I felt sorry for my sheep today but then...when I do...all I have to do is look out in the fields at sheep that don't even have a barn.

I put up additional wind blocking in the sheep hut and spread a thick layer of wood shavings for them.  This weekend I need to renew their kelp/salt rations and fetch a ram....if I'm going to breed at all, I'm getting a late start.


----------



## abooth

Good luck fetchin' your ram.  Where do you get that sea kelp?


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## Beekissed

I had my local feed store order it....that way I didn't have to pay the shipping.  I have been using the same bag for two years now!!!  $50 for 50# of kelp.  I used this bag on my milk cow, multiple bottle calves, all last winter for the sheep and a bottle calf and all this year with my three sheep. 

I still have 1/3 bag left.   

It goes a long way and they only eat it when they crave it...I assume they crave it when there is a deficiency.  

I mix it half and half with coarse salt.  

Joel Salatin swears it has practically eliminated his incidence of pink eye in his cattle due to the high iodine content.


----------



## Royd Wood

I do admire anyone who makes home made things including feeders but last week I went out and bought a 10 ft sheep hay feeder (too busy or just plain lazy  ???). It cost just over 300 bucks but I reacon its saving me a bale a day ($3.50) so will soon pay for itself. 
ps Still lovin the journal Beekissed


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## Beekissed

WOW, Royd!!! That is one beautiful hunk of beef in your avatar!!!  Can you post the full pic?  I think the Galloways are a great and beautiful breed.  

Post a pic of your hay feeder?


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## Royd Wood

Bee - yes she is a chunky lady - you can check out the herd and other 4 legged friends on my website including the Romney sheep. i have said this before and will say it again - I have found the sheep fasinating to have around and just love em to bits, they are a big part on the farm now and found a crackin ram who has been having some fun with the ladies - cant wait for lambing again


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## Beekissed

I checked out your website and was amazed at how nice it is!  Did you design that or did you pay someone?  Those are very healthy looking animals....I'd say you probably have plenty of customers?  

I'm flattered you like this journal after seeing your setup and farm website.


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## Royd Wood

My beloved did it Bee - she is great at that sort of stuff and we are working hard to build up customers. Heres a couple of pics for you and keep up the blog as we love it.


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## Beekissed

Royd, I just cannot get over how LONG your cow is!! I don't think I've ever seen a beef cow that long before!!  And what a topline!  

Thanks for the pics....I may show them to my sis, so she can see what a REAL Galloway looks like!     She has one but yours makes it look like scruffy, little dog.


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## Beekissed

Well....I will be getting rid of my sheeples next weekend, so this journal will be coming to a close.  I hope everyone has learned a little about some things, as I did.  Their original breeder is taking them back home....this means I can visit anytime I want and see their lambs.  This I love!  

It would be real nice to have an all natural section for sheep like they do for the goats, as everyone insists they are so different.  

I have had fun experimenting with an all-natural husbandry for these gals and funny as it may seem, the breeder from whence I bought them has been picking my brains about using the same methods!  Go figure!   

I loved my self feeding system this year and so did the sheep....they also loved their little sheep hut.  Their new/old owner is coming this next week to look at the sheep hut and to buy up all my stock panels and sheep equipment.  

I couldn't have picked a better breed for my first sheep and would recommend Katahdins to anyone else getting into sheep for the first time.  No real health problems, easy birthing, thrifty feeders, sweet and quirky personalities and beautiful animals.  They do well on browse and graze and don't seem to need or utilize corn/feed like other breeds.  

Good luck to you all with your sheep herding and I will be reading along with great interest as you all learn and develop ways to cope with your livestock.


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## Royd Wood

This is sad news Bee

    

going to miss your Journal updates


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## theawesomefowl

Oh, thats just too bad! Beekissed, you gave me the idea to get hair sheep! I found a reasonably close breeder, and maybe I can actually get them...now you won't have them anymore!


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## Beekissed

Well...I expect you to have a journal documenting your progress with this special breed and I will be anxiously awaiting the pics and stories!  I'll have to live my sheep life vicariously through you guys now, so don't disappoint me!!!   

I've had a ball doing this and I can't say that one part has been useless....I hope you have just as much fun, satisfaction and love while raising your sheep.  They are amazing animals!  I never really knew how they grab you around the heart until I had some of my own....I think it's because they look to you for guidance and security.  Sort of like a child.....


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## theawesomefowl

Oh, and I really liked your signature--funny, yet appropriate!


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## aggieterpkatie

I was just thinking of your journal the other day and wondered when you were going to update. Sorry to hear they're leaving, but it's good that you can go visit any time!


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## Beekissed

Well....tomorrow the sheeple ladies go back to their farm of origin and I will no longer be enchanted by their rolly-polly cuteness.  

My boys and I got to thinking about how we never even got to eat any of our own sheep and how little Fats will just be shipped off to the sale market with other meat lambs.....and decided to keep Fats here on the land~in a manner of speaking.  

The boys came over and processed rotund Fats here....very quickly and efficiently.  Without my presence.  I just couldn't do this one.  He was too sweet, too lovey, too much like a stuffed animal...innocent and soft.  I wimped out~big time.    

Now all that is left of dear little Fats is in a pan in the bottom of my fridge and hanging on the clothesline.  His pelt is at peak lushness and is a thing of beauty that I will cherish, and we will all get to consume the culmination of my sheep experiment.  The boys say the meat is so tender that it practically fell off the carcass.  

I'll be looking for good lamb recipes online, as we have never had or cooked our own lamb before.  I've only tasted lamb once and it was a woolly breed....it was okay but I wasn't all that impressed.  

His mama hasn't cried out or acted like she was looking for him, which was a relief for me.  It was also a tremendous relief to let the boys do my dirty work just this once....I couldn't bring myself to even watch over the process.

It is certainly weird to take an animal from birth to the table.  I've done this with chickens, but never with a larger livestock. 

No one ever told me that sheep would captivate your heart and depend on you like a child....maybe they don't do that in large herds but the smaller groupings seem to look to their humans.  

I must be gettin' too soft in my old age...... :/


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## theawesomefowl

Good for you! Let us know how tasty the lamb is! 
I can't wait for my own sheep!  
I am clearing out a three-sided shed for them! There is a bunch of wood, old shingles, broken glass, etc. int there. How high should I make the gate/front of it?


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## aggieterpkatie

Beekissed said:
			
		

> Well....tomorrow the sheeple ladies go back to their farm of origin and I will no longer be enchanted by their rolly-polly cuteness.
> 
> My boys and I got to thinking about how we never even got to eat any of our own sheep and how little Fats will just be shipped off to the sale market with other meat lambs.....and decided to keep Fats here on the land~in a manner of speaking.
> 
> The boys came over and processed rotund Fats here....very quickly and efficiently.  Without my presence.  I just couldn't do this one.  He was too sweet, too lovey, too much like a stuffed animal...innocent and soft.  I wimped out~big time.
> 
> Now all that is left of dear little Fats is in a pan in the bottom of my fridge and hanging on the clothesline.  His pelt is at peak lushness and is a thing of beauty that I will cherish, and we will all get to consume the culmination of my sheep experiment.  The boys say the meat is so tender that it practically fell off the carcass.
> 
> I'll be looking for good lamb recipes online, as we have never had or cooked our own lamb before.  I've only tasted lamb once and it was a woolly breed....it was okay but I wasn't all that impressed.
> 
> His mama hasn't cried out or acted like she was looking for him, which was a relief for me.  It was also a tremendous relief to let the boys do my dirty work just this once....I couldn't bring myself to even watch over the process.
> 
> It is certainly weird to take an animal from birth to the table.  I've done this with chickens, but never with a larger livestock.
> 
> No one ever told me that sheep would captivate your heart and depend on you like a child....maybe they don't do that in large herds but the smaller groupings seem to look to their humans.
> 
> I must be gettin' too soft in my old age...... :/


I was wondering if you were going to keep him for the freezer . I have been planning since day 1 to put my ram in the freezer, and he's also very sweet and loves to be petted.  I'm really going to miss him, but I know if I keep him I'll be too "soft" and I really want the sheep to provide meat and fiber, not just fiber.  I also am wimping out and taking him to an Amish processor, because I just can't do it and we don't really have any friends that could help hubby, and I don't want him to have to do it himself.  

It's great that you were able to do it (or have your boys do it) right on the farm. He was happy right to the end, I'm sure!    And it will be great to have that fresh, homegrown lamb.  I loove lamb. And now you have his hide, which will be great to have.  I'm also going to keep my ram's hide. I found a place in PA that will do a washable tan for only $40.  Can't wait to have that on the seat of my car, or in a rocking chair!

Good job, Bee!


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## Beekissed

Wow, Aggie!  I'd love to have this one tanned instead of having to do it myself...especially for $40!  But...I have the materials and I have another hide...my bottle calf from last year...also in the freezer awaiting tanning.  

Hauled the ewes to their old farm today and they went quietly and gently, which was a blessing for me.  I couldn't have handled it if they were frantic and crying.  They were placed immediately with a St. Croix ram and Black Betty was bred right there on the spot!  

Little Moe was not interested in breeding, so I'm assuming she is not in season right now....true to her character, she was more interested in what food they had!   

Poor Jake, my lonely only dog, was whining and pacing as yet another of his friends disappeared from the farm.  I can only imagine what he is thinking~"Am I next???"


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## Beekissed

A footnote to the sheep journey....Little Fats was the most tender and tastey meat!  I had only ever had lamb once before and found it to be a little strong and greasy.....not this Katahdin grass fed lamb! 

I barely had to chew the meat, it was that tender!  And the flavor reminded me of young venison or tender young beef.  

I'll post pics of the hide when I get it tanned to complete the circle of purchase, breeding, lambing, processing and tanning of the hide.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

Hi Bkss,I had just started reading your topic and are only 2 pages in but thought I would let you know that so far I think its "great".....When I catch up I will post if I think I can contribute.......................T.O.R


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## Beekissed

TOR, I would be honored if you would post words of wisdom on this journal!  We need a running thread on sheep info....not enough of us sheeple on here to keep a lively discourse going like the goat people.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

G'day BK, just a quick note to let u know I 'm up to page 20 and I have made a few notes ,look forward to chatting on this topic.....T.O.R.


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## Beekissed

Black Betty had her first lambs, twins, this week and they are, by all reports, big and healthy.  Live wires were the words to describe them!    One ram, one ewe....a perfect set.  One for eatin', one for breedin'.  

I go to visit them tomorrow and hope to take pics.  Little Mo will be lambing for her second time next week and I'm hoping she will have twins as well.  

Both sheep are thriving well back in their home herd and have forgotten who I am....    They still turn at my call but act like I'm an ogre if I approach, turn tail and move away with the herd.  Such is life....  

It may just be mama bias, but as I view them with their herd, they seem more sleek, more bright -eyed and in better condition than all the rest.  I like to think it was all the ACV/garlic tonics and the all-natural husbandry that produced such superior specimens!


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## theawesomefowl

Awesome!!!!  Good for Black Betty. I'm hoping my girls will be as good mothers!


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## Beekissed

Quick update....Little Mo also had twins this year and all lambs doing well and growing strong.  I'm wondering if the ACV had anything to do with 3 out of 4 lambs being female?  

I guess it would take a longer experiment to see if this was true each lambing season but I've read of farmers reporting 85% and above female lambs with monthly use of ACV and did not have this result before using it.


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## Royd Wood

Royd Wood said:
			
		

> This is sad news Bee
> 
> 
> 
> going to miss your Journal updates


Still hoping that you revive this journal as it had everything inc jumping in a pen to check out a potential rams scroat - still think about that post when checking my chaps here


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## Beekissed

Royd, it would be nice to have other sheeple journals on this forum that are updated often with pics and projects, ideas and problem solving posts.  I still love to discuss and learn about sheep husbandry.  

Now that I no longer own my sheep, I don't have much to post....they are back in their original herd, although they say that my gals won't hang with the herd now and live separately by choice.  I think they used the word "spoiled" about that....don't know how those gals got spoiled 'cause I sure didn't do it!  

I'd like to encourage all new sheep people to document your progress so other newbies can avoid pitfalls, learn from your experiences and exchange ideas.  This journal really helped me to track my progress.


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## Beekissed

Heard from my farmer buddy who has Black Betty and she had triplets this year and is feeding them all well.  They bred her to a Royal White ram, so it should be interesting to see these babies. 

 Sadly, the same farmer let his sheep out on new spring grass and didn't provide the correct roughage to balance their rumens( an old guy and knows better  :/  ) and Little Mo got bloated and died from the experience.  She was a beautiful ewe and a gentle and good mother.


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## EllieMay

Oh, no! So sorry to hear about Little Mo.


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