# Parrot beak mouth syndrome



## DonnaBelle (Mar 15, 2012)

I just saw that one of Kim's new kids had the parrot mouth.  I had a total of 12 kids this year, 2 of which had the parrot mouth.  I was thinking I might get rid of the buck that sired them, thinking it was a rare defect and perhaps only a few bucks had it. 

This kidding season there have been a total of 3 people posted on BYH  with kids with this defect, all of us in different parts of the US.

I'm wondering if this is something that is a problem in all Nubian or Boer goats, or if it is found in all the breeds??

I was thinking of not using my herd sire anymore, but he is a nice goat...Plus I luv him....He doesn't smell at all unless he's beautified himself for the girls, and he's really good natured.

What's your knowledge or opinion of this condition??

DonnaBelle


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## elevan (Mar 15, 2012)

My understanding is that it's a birth defect...not a genetic defect.  Meaning that something happened in utero that resulted in parrot beak...any number of things could contribute from nutrition to illness to injury of the doe.  Any goat (or mammal for that matter) can get parrot mouth.  

I would not get rid of your sire, it's not his fault.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 15, 2012)

Here is information pertaining to horses:


The cause of parrot mouth is often not fully clear. Several causes are possible including genetics, trauma and illness as a foal near a period of rapid growth.

The condition can result from the top jaw (maxilla) developing too long, or the bottom jaw (mandible) developing too short. Usually it is the lower jaw that is too short. But anything which interferes with the match up of the top and bottom jaws can cause a horse to be parrot mouthed.

As far as genetics go, parrot mouth is NOT directly heritable. That is, we rarely see an individual sire or a mare throwing an abnormally high number of parrot mouthed foals. The most common cause of it is when a mare is bred to a stallion of very different head type. Surprisingly, these two stud animals often have normal teeth structure, yet when they are bred, the mismatch is so great that a parrot mouth offspring is produced.

The commonest example of the mismatch is when a stocky and short, wide headed stallion is bred to a lean long headed mare. Thus a breeder needs to be careful and considerate even of head type when planning to breed a superior foal.

It is important to remember that malocclusions in horse's teeth (when they are not in the correct positioning and alignment etc) is poorly understood when it comes to how heritable it is, and is often a very complex mismatch of many genes. Thus having a badly conformed mouth in your animal may present a risk in breeding, but certainly doesn't mean that animal will throw offspring with a similar condition.

So the breeder needs to consider questions such as:

    how bad the condition is
    whether the dam or sire has produced other similarly affected offspring
    whether the affected animal has thrown foals with a similar problem.

These negatives then need to be weighed up against the positive desirable traits of that animal.

Whilst it is ideal to not breed any animals with faults, if we all did this, then there would be no foals next year! So with the parrot mouth condition, one strategy could be to not re-mate a mare to a particular stallion if a parrot mouthed foal is produced by that mating.


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## redtailgal (Mar 15, 2012)

How does parrot mouth affect the feeding/eating of goats throughout their life time?


It looks as though a parrot mouth'ed kid would have difficulty latching on to nurse or bottle feed.  It also looks that they would have difficulty grazing as well.

Does this cause them to be unthrifty?  Do they need more supplementation or other special care?

Are nasal passages affected in anyway?


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## ksalvagno (Mar 15, 2012)

I really suspect that it "can" be genetic but also congenital. I know alpacas are like horses and the owners don't like to admit that things may be genetic so they can keep breeding all their females. Goat, cow and sheep people tend to cull a lot more and they have fewer genetic defects. In alpacas, we see a lot of choanal atresia (blocked nasal passage) and wry face (twisted nose) and the only thing that alpaca people do is not repeat the breeding but those are genetic defects. I would say do what you think is best for your herd. Sometimes it really seems like weather plays a part in things too. Like hearing quite a few people have seen parrot mouth in their kids this year.

Parrot mouth only affects the mouth. Choanal Atresia would be a second problem if they had problems breathing. Wry face would affect breathing since the muzzle is twisted. It would really depend on how bad the parrot mouth is if they could eat or not. If it is minor, then more than likely nothing special would have to be done. If severe, they would probably have to be put down. Then you got everything inbetween.

Unfortunately with alpacas, I have seen a lot of birth defects over the years whether genetic or congenital.

My vet always says if you breed your females to different males, eventually you will get the defects. Defects are buried down in all animals. Just need the right genetic combination to bring it out. Of course then you throw in the congenital stuff that just happens in the womb for whatever reason.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 15, 2012)

The two I've got are nursing fine.  I'm going to put them in the freezer when they are about 40-50 lbs.

I haven't noticed them having any difficulties at all....They haven't started eating hay yet, they're only about a month old however.

DonnaBelle


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## redtailgal (Mar 15, 2012)

Thanks for the info K and Donna.

This breeding thing can get scary!  lol

I've Goggled parrot mouth and am getting different stories from different sites.  Some say its hereditary, others say it is not.  I cant find a solid sway one way or the other.

If I had to make your decision, I'd give the buck one more chance, and if I got parrot mouthed kids again, then I would think about replacing him.

But, my opinion really isnt worth much, seeing as how I havent even bred my does yet!  lol


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## elevan (Mar 15, 2012)

DonnaBelle - did you use this buck last year?  Any parrot mouth on previous breedings?



			
				ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Sometimes it really seems like weather plays a part in things too. Like hearing quite a few people have seen parrot mouth in their kids this year.


I really think that there is something to this (weather playing a factor).  When you look around the animal kingdom you will find plenty of examples of how weather / temperature plays a role in development of certain characteristics in utero.


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## elevan (Mar 15, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I've Goggled parrot mouth and am getting different stories from different sites.  Some say its hereditary, others say it is not.  I cant find a solid sway one way or the other.


That's what happens when you have something that isn't well studied and not a lot is really known about it.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 15, 2012)

This is an interesting discussion.

I never thought of weather having anything to do with the birthing defects of an animal.  

I have only used River this year.  I bought another buck to use this fall, so I'm going to keep River and use him in 2013.  I'm really glad to get the imput from you guys.

I give my 3 males a handfull of goat developer in the evenings, mostly to keep them tame.  They have about 5 acres of pasture to graze each day, and they do fine.

Thanks again for the imput..

DonnaBelle


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## Queen Mum (Mar 15, 2012)

I have a cartoon with a carnival guy (big muscles, a cigarette hanging out of his mouth) he has a dart board behind him.  On the dart board are three choices and there are different size prizes.   One choice is "Nature", another is "Nurture", the third is "Whatever".

This discussion reminded me of that cartoon.  

Just an aside:  I would think that awareness of the issue also makes the incidence seem more prevalent as well.  Before we might not have noticed.  Now we say,  "Oh, that's parrot mouth." 

There are so many variables that it is hard to know what to do.  One would have to do some controlled experiments to determine the real factors involved with parrot mouthed kids or some DNA typing and sampling.  I hope someone does start some research.  It would be helpful for us all to know how we should handle the issue.  Like we now know what to do with G6S and with CAE and CL.


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