# Litter of 5, only one left



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 4, 2019)

Hi all, my doe Paprika just had her first litter Sunday evening. There were 5 babies. I checked on them Monday morning (which is when I counted them), by taking the whole nest box out of the cage and putting them in a bowl lined with a towel. They were active and squeaking a little so I only had them out for a few minutes just to make sure I counted them all, then put them back in the nest and nest back in the cage. 

When I got home after work around 6 I checked the nest again and only one baby was still alive. The ones that had passed all had their mouths open and blood was showing in most of the toenails. Their tummies looked normal/big so I assumed that she had been feeding them all. Temperatures got to around 90, could they have overheated? All of them were covered in fur at the back of the nest box. The baby was still alive when I checked this morning before work.

One of my other does Cinnamon had her kits Saturday overnight (6 kits) and hers seem fine. They did spread out in the nest box, I'm assuming because of the heat. I've been afraid to pull Cinnamon's nest box to look in case it was my handling Paprika's kits that somehow caused them to die.

Should I leave the one kit with Paprika? Or move it to Cinnamon so she has 7?


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 4, 2019)

Put the last kit in with your other doe, Cinnamon. A lone kit barely ever survives.
It could definitely be the heat that killed them. When it's over 80 degrees you should take all the fur out of the box or the kits could overheat.
If you see the kits gasping for air, it means they're too hot.
In my experience, dead kits always look like they have bloody toenails. I think it's just how they look for some reason.

Or it could be a first-litter issue. Most first-time does have terrible luck with their kits even if they did everything right...sometimes all the kits will just die for no apparent reason.
Just rebreed Paprika tomorrow and the next litter should be better


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 4, 2019)

Thanks for the reply 

Paprika's kit and all 6 of Cinnamon's kits seem to be doing ok, they were all wiggly when I checked the nest boxes after work. If I move the kit to Cinnamon's nest, should I rebreed Paprika now or wait until after summer? Is there something I should do to help Cinnamon accept the kit? Use vanilla or something strong smelling? Or will she accept it if the kit is just in the nest with her babies?

I have another doe (Pepper) that just weaned her kits last week and I was hesitating to breed her again because I didn't want her to be uncomfortable having babies in July. I was thinking of waiting until September when it should start being cooler.

It got to almost 90 again, I think it's going to be hot all week. The cages are all in a row outside but I thought they got enough shade from the house to prevent them from getting too hot. I stood outside the different ends of the row and I think I need to add some sort of sun block or shade on Paprika's side. I'll bet that is why the kits died, she added a ton of fur to the nest and most of the shade disappeared in the late afternoon.

I forgot to say in my original post: Paprika is a Flemish/NZR mix, Cinnamon is pedigreed Rex (castor), Pepper is a chinchilla/Flemish mix, and my buck Frost is a pedigreed Rex (REW).


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 5, 2019)

This morning I took both nest boxes out and was going to move Paprika's kit to Cinnamon's nest but I was concerned I wouldn't be able to tell them apart so I took some pictures, and Paprika's kit is huge compared to the others (top of second photo).



 

 

Two of Cinnamon's kits were thin, one was worse than the other and very wrinkly, backbone seemed pronounced. I put those two kits in Paprika's box and put the boxes back in the respective cages. I was going to try and hold the babies up to Paprika but when she sniffed the one baby in my hand she jumped into the box. I put the baby back in the box under her and did some chores. When I came back and checked on them, Paprika was out of the box and both kits had huge tummies.

I think I may give Paprika one more baby depending on how she does with these two today and not rebreed any rabbits until it cools down again. I added a tarp to shade the cage, hopefully that will keep them cool enough until I can get another fan set up.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 5, 2019)

Well i'm glad everyone is happy and fed now!
As for the vanilla theory...I've never done that and so far I haven't ever had a doe reject an orphan


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 5, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Well i'm glad everyone is happy and fed now!
> As for the vanilla theory...I've never done that and so far I haven't ever had a doe reject an orphan


I didn't end up using anything, and she nursed them just fine. I haven't been home to check yet but I'm hoping all is well. I will keep adding updates as the litters progress.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 5, 2019)

Larsen Poultry Ranch said:


> I didn't end up using anything, and she nursed them just fine. I haven't been home to check yet but I'm hoping all is well. I will keep adding updates as the litters progress.


Oh good! I know when you google it, everyone is putting fear into you with the whole 'the doe will reject her babies if you touch them' and 'reject orphan kits if you don't put vanilla on their nose' but it's not like that!!
I had a doe take in a 3 week old baby with no issues at all!
She didn't even really look at it and It ended up being her favorite one too


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 8, 2019)

Everyone is doing well and the does are ok with me peeking into the nests at least twice a day. Paprika has 3 kits:


 

Cinnamon has 4 kits, the big white one is the one Paprika gave birth to. All the other kits are Cinnamon's.


 

I think I'm seeing 5 colors from Cinnamon's kits? One is black, one looks buff colored, there are two pale gray/brown ones, an off-white, and a light gray. I am still learning the Rex colors, so I'm probably not calling them by the right names. I think some are dilute colors though.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 8, 2019)

The darkest one in the picture looks like a Castor (called chestnut in other breeds)
Paprika's big baby will either be REW or BEW...and there's a Red in that picture too 
They're adorable!!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 9, 2019)

Thanks for the clarification on the colors, I looked again and you are right, the dark kit looks like a castor. It totally looked black when the fur was just starting to come in. Paprika's kit should be REW, the dad Frost is REW and I guess Paprika has Cc. 

I just wish more of her kits survived, I think two or three were white and the others had a pale color to them. Now I have to wait until after summer for the next set of babies.

I will keep posting more pictures as these bunnies grow up


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 9, 2019)

Yep, colors can be tricky!
And it will definitely be a REW then! Lucky 
I got a REW kit 3 weeks ago from breeding my black buck to my black doe. I absolutely love her!

As for the dead kits...It's most likely just a first-time mom thing. That happens 99% of the time. Just be glad some did survive. I lose entire litters of perfectly healthy-looking kits in first time litters!


And yes please keep up with the pictures!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 10, 2019)

Well, last night there was another dead kit in Paprika's box, so I moved her kits over to Cinnamon. This morning they were all doing ok. The kit that passed didn't have a mark on it and it was chunky too. 

ETA: the kit was one that Cinnamon kindled.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 10, 2019)

I'm sorry!
Good idea. Just rebreed Paprika and she'll do better next time.
Cinnamon will take good care of her kits


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 10, 2019)

It's definitely the heat. It got to close to 100 today. I'm down to 3 kits, all from Cinnamon. This has been awful. Weather is expected to stay hot for over a week, and we are technically still in spring. I moved Cinnamon and the remaining kits into the garage, it should stay below 90 there since it's under the house. I feel like such an idiot.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 10, 2019)

Don't feel too bad!
Things like this happen to the best of us. Raising rabbits is no picnic!
I can't tell you how many horror stories I have! Just today, I had to put a baby down because it was born with the max-factor gene. I had another kit die from a seizure yesterday...it's not easy stuff so don't get too down on yourself


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 11, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Don't feel too bad!
> Things like this happen to the best of us. Raising rabbits is no picnic!
> I can't tell you how many horror stories I have! Just today, I had to put a baby down because it was born with the max-factor gene. I had another kit die from a seizure yesterday...it's not easy stuff so don't get too down on yourself


I'm sorry you lost kits too.  What is the max-factor gene? I haven't heard of that.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 11, 2019)

Thanks 
It's a genetic problem that shows up now and then in dwarf breeds.
It was first documented in a buck named max...hence the name.
They're babies born with their eyes open, they can be really deformed looking and their hind legs are all twisted. They have dewclaws on their back feet so it looks like they have mittens for feet. It's creepy and they usually die in the nest box but some can actually survive into adulthood.
Here's a link about some of the genetic issues of Dwarf breeds..peanuts, hippos, max-factors etc.
If you get freaked out by deformed things, you might not want to click on the link 

https://www.barrowbunnies.com/the-dwarf-gene-max-factor-and-hippos.html


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 12, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Thanks
> It's a genetic problem that shows up now and then in dwarf breeds.
> It was first documented in a buck named max...hence the name.
> They're babies born with their eyes open, they can be really deformed looking and their hind legs are all twisted. They have dewclaws on their back feet so it looks like they have mittens for feet. It's creepy and they usually die in the nest box but some can actually survive into adulthood.
> ...


I'm sorry you have to deal with that  poor bunnies. I'm definitely glad I picked regular sized rabbits instead of dwarfs. I don't think I could handle those issues too.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 12, 2019)

Larsen Poultry Ranch said:


> I'm sorry you have to deal with that  poor bunnies. I'm definitely glad I picked regular sized rabbits instead of dwarfs. I don't think I could handle those issues too.


It's a bummer! But sometimes they don't show up in any litters for a while so that's a good thing!


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 12, 2019)

It sounds to me as if all the losses you had were from the heat.  When you separated Cinnamon's litter and put some in Paprika's box, Paprika was feeding them.  .So it sounds like she was taking care of them but they died from heat.  We are in so Cal also and in the heat rabbits die fast.  Especially when it jumps from 70-80's to 100's like it did this week.  Temperature spikes are very dangerous for rabbits and you don't always realize that the temperature is as hot outside when you are inside.

When the weather is in the 90's-100 take all the fur and most of the bedding out of the box.  If the weather is really severe (100's) bring the nest boxes into the house during the heat of the day and return them to the mothers over night.  Most rabbits only nurse their babies at night so removing and returning the nest boxes works fine. 

You said Paprika's cage was on the end of the cage row and got afternoon sun - that may have been just enough extra heat to kill the kits.  Use shade cloth or something sold to keep sun from hitting her cage, but make sure that there is enough air circulation.  You can also hook up misters and run a fan over the cages to help cool them down.  Lowes carries misting systems in the plumbing department (with the sprinklers and drip systems) if you don't have time to order through the rabbit catalogs.  Frozen bottles will help cool off the older rabbits or pieces of old carpet soaked in water will also help.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 13, 2019)

Bunny update, all 3 remaining kits are doing ok now that they and Cinnamon are in the garage. Garage hasn't gone over 86 yet according to the thermometer, but outside has been in the 90s-100. 

All outside rabbits have been getting frozen water bottles and I change out their drinking water when I get home. This morning I figured out how to add ice to the drinking water so hopefully it stayed cooler a little longer. I'm going by home Depot this evening to buy some ceramic tiles to put in the cages for the rabbits to lay on, I think that might help them stay cool as well. We are trying to add additional shade, but we are waiting on the package to arrive so we can set up a shade sail.

Baby bunnies are just starting to open their eyes, they look so grumpy. I know I have a castor (darkest one), does the tan one look like a lynx? I will try to get some better pictures of the gray one, but I'm thinking lilac or opal? I know it's not chinchilla because the genotype of dad is 'cc' and mom is either 'Ccchl' or 'Cc'. I'm thinking since none of the kits were REW, it's safe to assume that mom is 'Ccchl'.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 13, 2019)

Yep! That baby is a Lynx 
As for the possible opal/lilac...
If it's an opal, it will have a gold triangle behind the ears and the belly and inside of ears and the nostrils will be white/gold.
If there is no white in the ears or on the belly, it's probably a lilac 
They're beautiful babies!!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 14, 2019)

I didn't see any gold behind the neck, but the ears look white.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 14, 2019)

Both a lynx and opal have 'dd', so that confirms that Cinnamon carries dilute, I knew Frost has at least 1 copy of 'd'. And lynx is 'bb', so again, both parents have a copy. This fills in 2 slots of Cinnamon's genotype and 1 slot for Frost.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

Wow!
It looks like a Squirrel 
It has white whiskers and the typical agouti markings...I have a Squirrel (lop) and she's my absolute favorite!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 14, 2019)

I thought it couldn't be a squirrel because it's not chinchilla?


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

Hmmm...is mom cchd maybe?
@Bunnylady  what do you think? Squirrel?
It doesn't appear to be any other color!


----------



## Bunnylady (Jun 15, 2019)

I think the gray baby is a Sable Agouti - A_cchlc.

I also think the tannish colored one is a dilute Orange (a color called Fawn or Cream or some such, depending on the breed). Lynx is a dilute Chocolate Agouti, with a band of lilac on the ends of the hair shafts. Orange and Red often wind up with "smut," a little bit of black/brown that doesn't quite get pushed off the ends of the hair shafts. In the Mini Rex, we have a trick for that - good Reds are chocolate based rather than black based, so any eumelanin on the tips of the hairs is brown rather than black. Brown being so close in appearance to the deep red-orange of the rufous-intensified pheomelanin band, you really don't see it. The rabbit in my avatar is an Amber Mini Rex (Amber is Chocolate Agouti). At first glance, he looks like a Red; you almost have to put him next to a Red to see that he has a decidedly brownish cast created by a band of brown rather than a light smear of brown on the tips of the hairs. (Red in the standard Rex had a red belly, which means the wide-band gene; wide band + non-extension does a pretty thorough job of getting rid of smut on its own, so there is no need for the chocolate trick).  To me, the tannish colored kit appears to be a light orangey shade, with a wash of bluish shading (i.e, smut) rather than a dilute version of the Castor with chocolate instead of black as the top band.

Incidentally, people often confuse Fawn and Lynx. The big difference is that lilac is a pinkish dove-gray rather than blue-gray, and there is a clearly defined band of it rather than a smudgy tipping on the ends of the hairs.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 20, 2019)

Updated pictures. The gray one's whiskers are both white and black. Tummy seems to be white. The castor seems to have gray on the legs and the color doesn't look like the mom, is that normal? Will she grow out of it? When do they grow out of their baby fur and into their adult fur?

I've been trying to handle them every day, I'm hoping they will turn into little cuddle bugs. Their eyes are open now and they are out of the box each morning now. The tan one is able to jump back into the box, I'm not sure about the others yet.


----------



## promiseacres (Jun 20, 2019)

Baby coats can be different than as adults. And there are different shades within each. Around 5 to 6 months they should get their adult coats.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 20, 2019)

Sorry that you are having issues with your kits. yes, heat is hard on them. Don't breed in the hot months, give the does a rest. On the ice, save plastic bowls, like cool whip containers, sour cream/cottage cheese containers, fill with water, pop out the ice and give the big ice cube to the rabbits. They can chomp on the ice and not put holes in your water/ice bottles.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 20, 2019)

You have beautiful rabbits. The colors are like a bouquet of flowers.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 20, 2019)

Baymule said:


> You have beautiful rabbits. The colors are like a bouquet of flowers.


Thanks! The other 3 that were lost from Cinnamon's litter had 2 more colors, I wish they would have made it. I'm not planning to breed again until probably September due to the heat. I hope her next litter turns out just as colorful.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

They're beautiful!
It's normal for castors to look different at a young age.
I have a chestnut Holland lop and when she was a baby she looked orange with black lines all around her face and body....she was strange looking! But now she's 3 months old and she looks like your normal chestnut.
I have 2 Chestnut Netherlands and they were almost cream colored when they were young. They had almost no black on them and now, they're adults and they are the perfect chestnut!
Baby coats can sure change a lot and in about 4 months you should be noticing a difference


----------



## Bunnylady (Jun 20, 2019)

Just for comparison, here are a few from my latest litter of Mini Rex:






Opal, Booted Lilac Fawn, Booted Castor, Red. Can you see the darker edge on the Red's ears? Being brown (Chocolate based) it barely shows up, even on adult coats.



 

This close-up of the Lilac Fawn is to show the same darker edge on the ears, which (being Lilac, i.e. Dilute Chocolate) is a pinkish, dove-gray; quite different from the blue-gray of the Opal next to it.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 20, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> Just for comparison, here are a few from my latest litter of Mini Rex:
> 
> 
> View attachment 63514
> ...


So pretty!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 28, 2019)

Update on the bunnies: everyone is doing well and the babies are growing. Tan baby is the biggest and most adventurous. Castor baby is a little more timid and the gray baby is the most skittish. I think talking to and handling them every day is making a difference. 

Tan baby will jump out of the cage when I open the door so I have to be a lot more watchful, she is fast! I haven't tried sexing them yet so it's wishful thinking on my part that tan baby is a girl. I will try to get pictures posted tonight.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 28, 2019)

I would love to see pictures!
I'm glad they're doing well! And yep...there's always a cage-jumper in every litter! I have one right now...a little tort buck I decided to keep. He just falls right out. They do learn though!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 28, 2019)




----------



## AmberLops (Jun 28, 2019)

They're beautiful!!


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jun 29, 2019)

The cage is right on the floor, so it's only about 6 inches up. I'm getting better at corralling her and making her explore my lap instead of the garage floor. They really like trying to chew on my jeans.


----------



## AmberLops (Jun 29, 2019)

They'll do that! Just watch your hair...they'll eat it like hay


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jul 8, 2019)

I moved Cinnamon and babies out to the normal cages. It hasn't been quite as hot, and they like the frozen water bottles. The babies seem to be doing ok with the heat so far.


----------



## AmberLops (Jul 8, 2019)

Yay! Good news


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jul 10, 2019)

Updated pictures


----------



## AmberLops (Jul 10, 2019)

Cuties! 
Are you keeping them?


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jul 10, 2019)

I really want to, but I only have 2 open cages so there would be trouble if I tried to keep all 3. I am flip flopping on whether I will try to show in October with one of the babies, I've never shown anything before and I don't even know if they are showable or if they have DQs. I really want to keep them all, but should probably only keep one or two at most. The tan baby is the most friendly and the castor is tolerant but not really liking to be touched as much. The gray/blue is the most skittish.

I've been thinking about names, which is a bad thing because if I name them I will definitely want to keep them.  Toffee for the tan one, Coffee for the castor, and I still haven't come up with a name I liked for the gray/blue. Maybe I should sell that one and keep the other two. I tried to tell their gender but they weren't very cooperative. I think they might all be girls but I need to check again in a week or so with a second pair of eyes to confirm. They were born June 1/2, I probably should wean them in a week or two. They just look so small.

I know the castor is a showable color, but I don't know about the other two. I need to get a copy of the standard of perfection for Rex. I think that will be my homework for this week.


----------



## Bunnylady (Jul 10, 2019)

Fawn and Sable Agouti are not showable, nor is Chestnut. Castor and Chestnut aren't _quite_ the same thing; Castor is a Chestnut that has a lot of rufous modifiers adding extra red/yellow pigment to the coat. Some judges will mark a Chestnut down for "poor color," while others will DQ it for being an unshowable color. Whether a Rex is a Castor or a Chestnut depends on the intermediate ring color; in the Castor, it is a rich red to orange, while it is only yellowish in the Chestnut.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jul 17, 2019)

I weaned Coffee and Toffee today, they didn't freak out too much. The new cage they are in is right next to Cinnamon's cage so they can touch noses through the wire. Little blue bunny is still with Cinnamon and will be weaned this weekend.


----------



## AmberLops (Jul 17, 2019)

Yay! They grow up so fast don't they?


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Jul 17, 2019)

Yeah, they seemed too small to wean but then I looked at the calendar and realized they are over 6 weeks old. I weaned previous litters a bit earlier. I'm starting to wonder if they don't have as good genetics for quick growing as the litters from Pepper, or maybe it's just the heat. Only way to know is to have more litters and take more notes.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Aug 6, 2019)

More recent pics of the bunnies. I checked and I am 90% certain that Toffee is a girl. I haven't checked Coffee and the blue yet. Waiting for the nasty scratches on my arm to stop hurting so much.


 

 

 

 



Coffee's color is looking a lot better, more like mom, so hopefully I will be able to show her. They are all getting super soft too. They are over 2 months old now.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Aug 24, 2019)

More pics of the buns. The smuttiness on Toffee seems to have mostly gone away, and Coffee looks more like mom Cinnamon. 



 

 

 

 

 

I found someone with a castor Rex buck who was born same week as these and pedigree shows unrelated. I am trying to figure out how to open up another cage or add another cage so I can get him. I am excited for the fall and cooler weather. It's better to breed a doe her first time once she reaches 6 months? 8 months?


----------



## AmberLops (Aug 24, 2019)

They're beautiful!!
I breed my does when they're willing to breed...and that's usually around 6 months but some of them are ready closer to 8 months. Whenever they're ready...as long as they're not 8 weeks old ha ha


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch (Sep 14, 2019)

Buns are still doing well. I checked this morning and I am 99% sure they are all girls. They all have a little dewlap starting already too. I have decided they will be named Coffee, Toffee, and Sugar. 

I need to find someone who can tattoo their ears or buy a tattoo kit. Coffee looks like a small version of Cinnamon. I am planning to breed them sometime in December-February. I have a buck lined up who is a castor, so I definitely need to make sure I can tell them apart.


----------



## AmberLops (Sep 14, 2019)

Yay!
Glad to hear they're doing well


----------

