# Goat with dry skin



## Wild Wind Farm (Sep 23, 2009)

What can you tell me about giving coper to a goat that has dry skin?  She is on free choice minerals and a good hay, no grain as she is fat.  I give her zinc and that has made her dry skin go away in the past.  None of the other goats have dry skin just her.  What do you think?


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## currycomb (Sep 23, 2009)

maybe add a little corn or wheat germ oil to her feed?


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 23, 2009)

I've heard vitamin E oil in their grain, but as you aren't giving her grain, don't know how you would deliver it.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2009)

Pretty sure Durvet makes an injectable Vit. E..  Wouldn't doubt that other vet pharmaceutical companies do too...  

Never used it, though I'm contemplating..  I'm beginning to believe there's not enough Vit. E in Bo-Se to compliment the Selenium, but that's a completely different thread in the making.

As for dry skin...no clue.


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## helmstead (Sep 23, 2009)

We had the same issue.  Tried supplemental zinc, no help.  Started a regular BoSe program - helped some, not all (but did help several other issues).  Finally broke down and began copper bolusing after talking with several area producers and VOILA, that was it.  Also improved MANY other things...all of our goats looked completely different after the copper.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 23, 2009)

When you say "bolus", what exactly does that mean?


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## Roll farms (Sep 23, 2009)

You stuff these little copper rods into empty capsules and shove them down your goat's gullet.....they digest them over time and up their copper levels.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 24, 2009)

Do you have to get those copper rods and capsules from your vet or can you order them from somewhere?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 24, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> When you say "bolus", what exactly does that mean?


Bolus just means pill, basically..  I've found that nouns tend to become verbs in livestock-speak..  

What you're looking for is the Copasure 12.5g calf bolus..  It's a 12.5g bolus containing thousands of little copper oxide wire particles (COWP)..  The generally accepted dosage is 1g COWP/22lbs of goat..  

We repackage ours into 000-sized capsules (you can get them at a healthfood store), and I've found that 4.5g -- the 100lb dosage -- fits tight in a single 000-sized capsule.  

Copper oxide is so incredibly bio-un-available that there's a pretty wide margin of safety built in..  I know folks who cram the entire calf bolus down kids' necks as soon as they're physically big enough to accept it....50 or 60lbs, I think.  I can't even imagine, because the calf bolus is literally about the size of my thumb and I'm 6'1"/260lb and "big boned"..    It's a HUGE pill...

Point is, though...I personally think it's A LOT safer than most folks believe it to be.  If the situation were such that you could say "copper is copper is copper," it might be different...but that's just not the case.  Copper oxide and copper sulfate...vastly different things.

Side note...if you don't have a good bolus gun, I can't recomment this one highly enough.  We have it and it's fricken AWESOME.  A bit spendy, yeah, but what if a goat bites down hard on a $2 plastic one and cracks it in half...I don't wanna fish that out jagged-end first.  Plus, since this one has a rubbery tube on the end, you don't have to worry about scraping their throat with the sharp edges of crappily molded chinese plastic junk.  I'm also pretty well convinced that it's the last one I'll ever buy...stainless steel...well-built...probably could pass this thing down the family tree.

Just sayin.


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## ThornyRidge (Sep 25, 2009)

I have held off on the copper bolusing myself due to what I fear will be a disaster.. geesh drenching with a liquid is a task in itself.. I cant imagine a capsule being launched down the throat.. I too have a couple that seem to get dry flaky skin and have supplemented with zinc picolinate with good results ( got it through my health food store) and I tricked them by eating those capsules by mixing it in their grain. voila.. I also use a mineral max ead paste.. supplementing a small amount of that frequently along with the loose minerals..A breeder mentioned to me that red and black goats seem to be more prone to copper issues for whatever reason and I believe this is true.. the two that I have that are affected are a red/white nigie buck and a red chamoisee doe.. plus I was wondering is there any other forms of copper supplements that people have tried (even in human form from health food store) and how/what dose administered?  Oh I forgot I do throw in some black oil sunflower seeds .. might help a bit..  and I do notice my two with similar symptoms seem to be worse in winter..


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## trestlecreek (Sep 25, 2009)

Black and red goats hair coloring allows for sunshine to "bleach" the hair, that is why you see the color problem IMO.
I have never given copper as a pill/powder/drench. I believe that if the feed I feed/mineral does not have what the goat needs, I need a different feed. 
For dry skin, I look at parasites, fungus, environment or allergy issues.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 25, 2009)

I believe dark colored goats _are_ more prone to copper deficiency, too, though I can't back that up....no research on it, and I'm not gonna take the risk and spend the money to liver biopsy anybody..  Based on what I've seen with my own animals, though, I believe it.

I actually have my own pet theory about black and red goats and copper..  

Copper plays a role in hair pigmentation, which is why copper deficiencies are more easy to spot in dark-colored goats...they begin to fade out as copper levels decrease..  

What that tells me is that copper is being used up in some way in the process of coloring the hair..

That said, it makes sense to me that a white goat would use less copper than a dark goat on a daily basis, because the white goat doesn't have to put so much copper into hair pigmentation.

Again...can't back it up...no evidence, no proof...but it makes perfect sense, IMO.


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## helmstead (Sep 25, 2009)

Jenny - I happen to know from other breeders in the Indiana area that most of Indiana has excellent levels of both copper and selenium.  One breeder I know moved from IN to the SE a little over a year ago - and ran into deficiency almost immediately (also saw cocci for the first time).  I would say you're not seeing a need to bolus for this reason.  Also, my _own personal experience _- we didn't have a copper issue until we began using locally grown hay instead of hauling our own hay from our property _in Indiana_.  So, there ya go.

cmjust0 - I totally agree with you on the color link.  The ONLY way I can tell my pale/white goats are deficient is hair quality (it starts to get rough, like a wirehaired dog's).  Only my reds, blacks, and browns and golds really show the tell tale fading or reddening - and it's different for each color.  As we all know, the blacks get a reddish tint.  The gold color turns white.  Red turns orange/yellow and brown turns white.  

From my experience, sun fading or blowing coats usually entails the entire coat, where copper deficiency fading starts at the flank and progresses as it worsens.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 25, 2009)

Hi Kate!
In IN, our selenium levels are pretty low. I do have to give Bo-Se every so often. I do not believe in the habitual use, but do give it to selected animals at times. 
About 10 years ago,  I talked with some professors over at Purdue about this to find out the truth of the matter. The charts produced at that time were not in sync with the area. I haven't looked a ta chart in years, so I'm not sure if that was updated by the USDA or not. As you go further south of my city, the levels may change a bit. There are sporadic areas that may have good amounts.
I have a few goats that have the red pigmentation at times. These goats often have the red in the late winter before spring. When they get their new coats, the red goes away. This red fading is at the flank...
I believe the copper program is working well for you, but here with my herd, it just isn't needed, it's a bleaching issue.


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## kimmyh (Sep 25, 2009)

A little corn oil sprinkled on their food usually takes care of any flaky skin issues.


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## Wild Wind Farm (Sep 28, 2009)

Thanks for all the help.  I will let you know how it works out.


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## Roll farms (Sep 28, 2009)

I spoke to an extension agent late last year about our apparently  sudden copper issue and he told me that the drought here in N. Central IN last summer had a lot to do w/ low copper levels in the hay from this area.  It didn't help that I was (at the time) feeding them a sheep / goat feed that had no copper....(I'd never had a problem before....)

I stopped supplementing them this spring after getting new hay, and all my blacks are staying black.  We've had a lot more rain this year.
It makes sense to me that w/ changing weather conditions, the soil (and hay) levels of copper and selenium could change as well, in any region or state.  

I see a difference in how my does stand and how the kids stand at birth, when I don't supplement w/ BoSe.  

If I've learned nothing else, its that what worked last year may not this year and you have to be willing to adjust to the herd's needs.


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