# new doe scouring and gums are white



## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

Our new doe has pudding like poos now and DH said that her gums are "white as snow". Previous owner gave her Safeguard yesterday before we brought her home. We gave her a CDT shot and B vitamin complex because she was low on energy and hadn't been herself since she had a difficult birthing 5 days ago. What do I need to do for her? We are planning to get a fecal run tomorrow but if things get too bad I am thinking we may have to actually take her to the vet Monday instead of just running a fecal in.

Here's the backstory on her:
She is a year old pygmy who is a small for her age. She just had a kid 5 days ago. She had a very difficult birth and rejected the kid. Her previous owner contacted me and asked me if I wanted her as a pet since she did not think she needed to get pregnant again after this experience. So we went and got her yesterday for free. She is not in the best condition. She is small for her age, and thinner in the hip area than I would like. Previous owner said she had not been acting like herself since birth as well. B vitamins were suggested as well as more protein to help build her back up. We gave her feed seperate from our boys yesterday, to make sure she got her share and also cut some brush yesterday that she browsed on along with our boys. Since previous owner had said she had not had a CDT shot we gave her a CDT shot and B vitamin complex yesterday. CDT was dosed at 2CC IM, B Vitamins were given at 3cc orally. We are planning to continue with the B vitamins for a week to a week and a half.

Please help! DH said there are lots of flies hanging around her too, but I am hoping that is just because she has a dirty behind.

I hope I am in the right section.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

Get some CMPK into her. I would be treating her for pregnancy problems. The CMPK should perk her right up. Get some molasses into her immediately if you don't have the CMPK and go get the CMPK today. Mix the molasses with some water and you can even put it into her drinking water. 

I would say that yes, you need to have a fecal done but right now complications from birthing are your biggest problem. You can do a search on here and there are some threads that can help you too.

Good luck with her. I hope she does ok for you.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Get some CMPK into her. I would be treating her for pregnancy problems. The CMPK should perk her right up. Get some molasses into her immediately if you don't have the CMPK and go get the CMPK today. Mix the molasses with some water and you can even put it into her drinking water.
> 
> I would say that yes, you need to have a fecal done but right now complications from birthing are your biggest problem. You can do a search on here and there are some threads that can help you too.
> 
> Good luck with her. I hope she does ok for you.


Is CMPK something I can find at TSC?
I don't have molasses on hand but I think I have karo syrup. How much molasses do I need to give her and how much water needs to be mixed in it?


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

I've never had to use molasses so I'm not sure. Karo Syrup will not work. Blackstrap molasses is the best for this. There is probably a thread on here somewhere with dosages.

I would also start her on Penicillin. If she had a difficult birth, there is a chance of uterine infectine and Penicillin works best for that.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I've never had to use molasses so I'm not sure. Karo Syrup will not work. Blackstrap molasses is the best for this. There is probably a thread on here somewhere with dosages.
> 
> I would also start her on Penicillin. If she had a difficult birth, there is a chance of uterine infectine and Penicillin works best for that.


Ok, so my supply list to find so far is molasses, CMPK, and Penicillin. I've been searching the emergency stickies to figure things out too. Guess I get to hunt down dosages for these items too now. Thank you for your help. Hopefully someone else will chime in too so I have a few opinions.

I'll probably go out there in a bit and check her eyelids myself. DH is still learning all the goat stuff. I trust him when he says her gums are very pale but I want to see it myself too. 

Would giving her something to stop/slow the scours be a good idea too? I am guessing I will need to get some Probiotics too if we start penicillin?


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

So I got a hold of my dad and he is going to come check on her later this afternoon. He did suggest some things to try on her. So we will start the things we have on hand and are headed to get the penicillin too. Guess we need to pick up some yogurt for the probios too. Or would it be better to get the Probio Paste?


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## redtailgal (Jun 10, 2012)

I prefer the probios, but the yogurt will work if I dont have it.  If I have to get yogurt for the probiotics, I go whole hog and get Activa.

Could you get some recell  (it would be in the horse section in smaller bottles)?  It would give a quicker iron boost than molasses.


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## bonbean01 (Jun 10, 2012)

Really hope your doe will be okay!!!!!!

This is a very good reminder to myself to check just what I have on hand in case of emergency and stock up!!!!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 10, 2012)

I give my adult does(over 120lbs)  about 6 to 8 ounce of the following mixture twice a day. So you are maybe looking at 4 ounces(120cc).  Can't really overdose on it. I have never had a doe start scouring from it, even when given 10-12 ounces. I use a 30cc drenching syringe with the metal extension tip. 
1 part molasses
 1part corn syrup
1 part corn oil(has to be corn oil)

I agree with the Penn G shots, twice a day for 5 to 7  days. 1 cc per 20-25 lbs. 

For anemia I have found pig iron(ferrous) and injectable b complex to work the best.  Anemia doesn't just go away in one day, it take several weeks for the animal to build red blood cells.  I give the pig iron one time every 3 to 7 days, depending on how anemic the goat is. the vitamin b complex helps the body to use the iron.  

and of course if parasites are the cause of all this, a good worming will be needed, and a couple repeated wormings will also be needed, while her body recovers over the next few weeks.  When they are anemic they are more acceptable to a worm load, so it becomes a nasty cycle to break.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

We picked up Noracillin (per my dads recommendation) and probiotic paste. We will be contiunuing the B complex we have been doing. She was given safeguard by the previous owner yesterday. Could she have Ivermectin now too?

She also has crusty eyes. We have seen her eating and I think she has been drinking a little too. You can look at the poor girl and see she feels bad. My dad should be here in a little bit to look her over and tell us what he suggests. Thank you for the Penicillin dose too I was going to look it up soon.

20kids I will have to try that mixture recipe. I can get all those ingredients at the grocery store probably. We don't have a drenching gun though so I guess we will just be giving it in syringes a little a time. How many ml are in an oz? I figure she weighs maybe 40 lbs so 2-3 oz would be about right for her? I will have to look into the other options mentioned for iron too as I can see she needs it. Her eyelids and gums are ghostly white.

How often do I give the probios? And how long do I give them?


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## elevan (Jun 10, 2012)

Are you 100% sure that she passed her placenta?  Given her young age and the difficult birth she most likely has some infection raging in her reproductive system.  I'll third or fourth the Penicillin.

On the diarrhea, give her 3x the dosage of probiotics and either ScourHalt or jello powder mixed with a little bit of water and drench.

I don't hold much of an opinion on checking gums for anemia - you want to check the inside of the lower eyelid.  If she's anemic then either go with Red cell or injectible iron for pigs.

I'd also consider getting another stronger dewormer into her.  Safeguard is pretty mild.


  It's been a few hours since you updated so I hope that things are going well.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

So elevan would you give her a dose of Ivermectin today then? That's what wormer we have here.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

You can go ahead and give the ivomec now. Dose is 1cc per 20 lbs orally. I really think your problem is the hard birth though. Plus do you know how much Safeguard was given to the goat? That should be dosed at 1cc per 10 lbs.


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## elevan (Jun 10, 2012)

Yep.



			
				ksalvagno said:
			
		

> You can go ahead and give the ivomec now. Dose is 1cc per 20 lbs orally. I really think your problem is the hard birth though. Plus do you know how much Safeguard was given to the goat? That should be dosed at 1cc per 10 lbs.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

Well we gave her a hard hit of medication. 2cc of Peniciliin, 2cc of Ivomec, 3cc of B complex. My dad said we should wait 2 days and give her 1cc of Penicillin then give her that dose ever other day through this week. B complex will be given every day this week as well. I will be looking for some molasses tomorrow to add to her water. We have her seperated right now from the boys while she gets treated. We will be taking a fecal sample to the vet tomorrow to see if we are dealing with a big worm load and what kind we are dealing with.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

Unless you have long acting penicillin, you should be giving it twice a day. And long acting Penicillin should be given once a day. Giving it that way will just make her resistant to penicillin. I would strongly recommend doing the penicillin twice a day for at least 7 days to do a full course of the antibiotic.

Also, Penicillin should be dosed at 1cc per 15 lbs.


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## elevan (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Unless you have long acting penicillin, you should be giving it twice a day. Giving it that way will just make her resistant to penicillin. I would strongly recommend doing the penicillin twice a day for at least 7 days to do a full course of the antibiotic.


x10,000


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Unless you have long acting penicillin, you should be giving it twice a day. And long acting Penicillin should be given once a day. Giving it that way will just make her resistant to penicillin. I would strongly recommend doing the penicillin twice a day for at least 7 days to do a full course of the antibiotic.
> 
> Also, Penicillin should be dosed at 1cc per 15 lbs.


We are using Noracillin.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

Penicillin G procaine  is the active ingredient. So Noracillin is just the brand name. It is still regular penicillin and should be dosed appropriately.

I'm honestly not trying to be agrumentative. It is just so important not to improperly dose the penicllin.

Also, I have seen what a bad uterine infection can do to an animal and I'm very cautious when it comes to that.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Penicillin G procaine  is the active ingredient. So Noracillin is just the brand name. It is still regular penicillin and should be dosed appropriately.
> 
> I'm honestly not trying to be agrumentative. It is just so important not to improperly dose the penicllin.


Ok. I'll let DH know this. Since we are going to be taking a fecal to the vet tomorrow anyway I will discuss her condition with him as well. Whatever the vet says we will do as well.

So then assuming she is about 30 lbs she should be getting 2cc of Pen every day this week?


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

yes, if she is 30 lbs, then she should get 2cc twice a day for 7 days.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> yes, if she is 30 lbs, then she should get 2cc twice a day for 7 days.


Ok, do you suggest 12 hrs between dosages? I could probably get DH to give her a shot when he gets in from work in the mornings on his work days and help him give a second shot before he leaves for work at night. That would put 12 hours between shots.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

If you can do 12 hours apart, that would be great.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> If you can do 12 hours apart, that would be great.


I'll talk to DH about it then. When should probios be started? We have Goats Prefer Probio Paste from TSC. Tube says 5cc for adults.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

I would go ahead and start giving her the probios.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I would go ahead and start giving her the probios.


Ok, I wasn't sure if we could give it while dosing the antibiotics or not. Is 5cc the right dose? How long do we do the probios?


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## ksalvagno (Jun 10, 2012)

Honestly, you could give Probios daily for the life of the goat. But I would do it for a week.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 10, 2012)

ok. Guess we will add probios to the regiment too now.


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## redtailgal (Jun 11, 2012)

You may already know this, but I wanna make sure.......

When you give the penicillin, make SURE that once the needle is in, draw back on the syringe and watch for a flash of blood.  IF you get blood, even a tiny amount, withdraw the needle and try again.

Once you can draw back on the syringe and not get blood, give the injection slowly......dont just squirt it in. You can do it subQ in the armpit, if you want, but just make sure to check for that blood flash and push the drug in slowly.

I"d start the probios now, and continue it the whole time that she is on antibiotics and then a few days afterward.

and I agree with kaslvagno........you gotta does that stuff twice a day or it will not work, will not kill the infection and make her resistant to the drug.  Then you'll be up the creek for sure! Underdosing of antibiotics is what creates "super-germs", they are deadly, often cannot be treated with anti-biotics and are just as contagious as a regular germ.


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## Remuda1 (Jun 11, 2012)

I hope your doe is doing better this morning. I think once you get the Pen going, you'll see a big improvement. But DON'T let the improvement make you decide to quit giving the pen early or reduce the dosage. You've gotten excellent advice in this thread  . Best if luck with it and I'm looking forward to hearing how she's doing


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 11, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> ksalvagno said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


x 20,000

And the regular pennicillin (procain G) is much better than the long acting pennicillin.

I have given the Penn G, every 8 hours for the first couple of days with a goat that is in really bad shape. then went down to every 12 hours. Sometimes towards the end of the treatment I end up at 1 x a day.  I admit I get a little lazy and as they feel better they get harder to catch. 

anytime a doe stops eating after kidding, we reach for the penn G and assume it could be an infection. We also worm them with a strong wormer just to be on the safe side.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 11, 2012)

She is showing some improvement today. She is being more active today. We called the vet today to get his opinion on treatment. He said the penG actually may not be needed but that we could continue it if we wanted to. We asked about the Red Cell dosage and he said to give her 15cc daily for a week. So we went out and got some redcell, our local farm and garden store has a small bottle we were able to get. DH said he poops seem to be starting to thicken/harden up. She took her Red Cell withouth trouble really, she hollered a bit but there was no slinging it around or anything. We found out what a fecal will cost but were told that since we just wormed her it is best to wait till the end of the week to have a fecel run. 
So the daily treatment regime will now be 
15cc Red Cell 
3cc Vitamin B complex 
5cc probios 
Pen G I think since the vet doesn't think it is needed we will keep with the once a day dose of it. Vet is figuring it is anemia and a worm load which we have treated now. The vet said if she doesn't show improvement by Wednesday with the treatment we are doing then she won't get better so it is a good thing that we are already seeing some improvement from her. DH isn't happy about having to put all the money into her that we are but fortunately all the things we have had to get can be used in other situations too and are things that are good to keep on hand.
I'll try to keep y'all updated on her progress.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 11, 2012)

We have gone from pudding like poops to dog logs so our little doe is showing improvement!  Still haven't chosen a new name for her yet. I have a few I like but have to run them by DH when he has time.


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## redtailgal (Jun 11, 2012)

I'm go glad that she is doing better!!!


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## elevan (Jun 12, 2012)

How is she doing today?


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## marlowmanor (Jun 12, 2012)

I actually have not checked on her yet today. We will be going out around 5 when DH gets up from sleeping for work to give her her meds.


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## marlowmanor (Jun 12, 2012)

I saw some normal goat pellets out there today where the new doe is!  She takes her medicine so well! I think I am starting to see some pink coming back to her eyelids too! Dh put out some loose minerals for her and said she was going to town on them. I am betting she definately needed them. We see improvement in her body condition too she doesn't look so boney in the hip area anymore.


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## elevan (Jun 12, 2012)




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