# Udders- Good/Bad/Ugly/Improved UPDATED! 3/12/18



## Southern by choice

A take off of the "Herdsire Qualifications" thread.

This thread is all about udders.
Mainly udders that need improvement. Good, bad, really ugly (lol), improved etc. 

When first starting out in goats many are unaware of what to look for but as time goes on many want to do more with their goats as they learn more.

*The goal for this thread is to be encouraging! *

Working with what you have and learning and breeding up has amazing rewards. Really hoping many participate and share their own experiences. 
I am a huge advocate for the homestead goat, they may not be the prettiest, may not ever win a ribbon, won't ever be appraised, and most won't go on milktest but what they do is super valuable- because they put milk & cheese in the fridge and bring joy to those who own them. 

I will add more later.


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## Goatgirl47

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I will have a few (hopefully five, all but one have been confirmed bred) first fresheners this year, most of whom I plan on keeping for at least the next breeding season. We also have three does who have kidded at least once before, two of them we are definitely keeping and the other one maybe not, she doesn't have the greatest udder. :/
I want to work on improving my herd instead of just breeding for the heck of it (like for the fun of having babies each year). Unfortunately, here in Louisiana it is not common to find a good, reputable dairy goat breeder, so for the most part I need to work with the goats I have, most of whom we've gotten from TX. 
For 2018 I will be looking for a high quality buck (a Nubian, maybe a Mini-Lamancha as well) and I will definitely want opinions on his dam's udder - and maybe his granddams udders too, if possible. I certainly have a lot to learn, and look forward to hearing from the experts!


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## OneFineAcre

My problem is I haven't taken a lot of pictures of the bad ones if any and not many of the good ones
I've tended to only take pictures of the best ones


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## Southern by choice

@Goatgirl47  I'm glad you are excited about this thread. I am too!  I don't think we have any experts here but I think there are some really good people that have a lot to contribute.

@OneFineAcre  funny how on the other thread we were talking about milk out pics- I have them but I can't find them. Somehow I didn't file them under udder pics. I guess as I come across them I will put them in the file.


So... One of the things I was thinking about is how everyone has different criteria. I don't think there is a one size fits all or a right/wrong.
I have seen many posts on different dairy goat groups about what constitutes a "cull". It is very interesting! I also see that many old timers will say breed for what YOU like not what someone else likes, or a judge, etc.

Some examples- Again, no right or wrong just giving some examples.
(many of these are Standard goats- usually Lamanchas)
If the FF doesn't score 88-89 LA
If the doe isn't making 10lbs as FF
If the doe can't be bred it's first season
If the doe isn't hardy
If the udder isn't stellar


I know the thread is really about udders and improvement I think there is so much more to the decision making process.

What if the goat makes fantastic milk, produces heavily, is super hardy and easy keeper but has a horrible udder?
Do the benefits of that goat outway the udder?
Is this a doe that you should keep and breed up?

What about the goat that has a beautiful udder, milks well (meaning good/average), good confirmation, hardy yet turns feed into fat instead of milk?

Or... the great confirmation, beautiful udder, correct doe that is a simply a really hard keeper?

And of course we can't forget this scenario... you love the goat so much there is no way on earth she will ever leave your farm! But she has the worst udder and confirmation.

I think asking yourself some of these kinds of questions helps formulate a plan.

This is a BYH group- so many of us here have goats for our "use" and that plays a role in this too but even so BYHerders can always still improve and do good things.

Please add to this anything you think of! 
What are some questions you have asked yourself.


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## OneFineAcre

You mention goats that are high producers that don't have great udders
The weight of all of that milk can cause that
Basically wear out the udder early
Climate is 5 years old and even though she had best udder in the Youth Show at the fair and I think she got E on udder on appraisal you can see that going on with her
I can see the weight of the milk affecting how her udder looks


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## Southern by choice

That is what we see with Millie- I will post pics soon. It really does link back to weak attachments. Linked to that is the rear legs.
She will wear out!
BUT lol, we have put good bucks over her and all but one breeding has produced much nicer animals. 

I love her hardiness, parasite resistance, no fuss no muss diet. She is an incredible forager that prefers forage when the hay feeder has the best orchard or alfalfa... you find her in the field eating whatever. She is one that will never leave the farm so better for us to put good bucks over her and retain kids and continue to breed up. 

I'll try to put up the progression of decline if I can find all the pics.
I will also try and put up offspring pics.


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## Goat Whisperer

.....and you are not selling bucks out of her! 

Her daughter is Trouble. 
She freshened with a nice udder, not perfect but you wouldn't think she is Millie's kid!


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## lalabugs

Thank you for this thread. I will post pictures once my does freshen.

What is the best time frame after a doe freshens to take pictures of her udder?

Learning to look at the whole goat I'm still learning. I want to improve as I breed. The purpose of having goats for us is milk. However I do not want to breed and get animals that are worse than what I start with. 

Did anyone see the poll on the Nigerian page on facebook? The one about what color you breed for? Moonspots was the highest! Then conformation. The breeder we got rose from keeps most of her heavily moonspotted offspring. 

I'd like to learn how to breed up to have the whole package. I look forward to learning how to breed to try for the whole package. DH is partial to moonspots. Although if DH had his way we would never sell any babies.


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## Sara Ranch

I would LOVE to see pics of the good, the bad, the ugly, the correct, the "it's ok", the "it's a concern", the "be very concerned", the "keep an eye on this", and the "you don't want this repeated" stuffs.  

I am such a visual person!

I read a thread on this board about what to look for when buying a cow.  The person (looking to buy) posted pictures of the cows she/he was considering purchasing.  People gave great feedback.  I learned a lot from that thread!

I'd love to learn a lot from this thread, especially the pictures!


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## Bayleaf Meadows

@OneFineAcre -  would you mind if I posted some photos of your goats' udders?  I take more of yours than I do of mine...


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## Bayleaf Meadows

I thought this video gave a lot of information, mostly because it was a video and they could talk about what was happening as the milking and recording were going on.


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## Hens and Roos

I'll post a picture- this is our doe Obie- 2017 was her 3rd freshening with triplets(1B, 2D)
she dam raised her kids and we maybe milked her once or twice this season.  She is harder to milk with the small teat size.  Of course her 2017 doelings wont be bred until fall of 2018 so we don't know if any improvement to their udder until they kid.  At this point we are thinking that her udder won't change much if at all.


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## Southern by choice

lalabugs said:


> Did anyone see the poll on the Nigerian page on facebook? The one about what color you breed for? Moonspots was the highest! Then conformation. The breeder we got rose from keeps most of her heavily moonspotted offspring.


Seriously 



lalabugs said:


> What is the best time frame after a doe freshens to take pictures of her udder?


Once the edema goes down.


I think often it is selecting one or two things you really want to work on and then progressing from there. JMO
I like a high rear udder height, and a wide udder arch, and well placed teats. 
I will pick those over capacity. 
Of course to have a good udder the first two things are important... the teats not so much.  I don't want to lose teat placement though.
Having a beautiful capacious udder but the teats are so far to the outside they are touching the legs is not something I want.

@Hens and Roos  how many hours is the fill? How many month in lactation?


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## OneFineAcre

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> @OneFineAcre -  would you mind if I posted some photos of your goats' udders?  I take more of yours than I do of mine...


Sure, go for it.


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## OneFineAcre

lalabugs said:


> Did anyone see the poll on the Nigerian page on facebook? The one about what color you breed for? Moonspots was the highest! Then conformation. The breeder we got rose from keeps most of her heavily moonspotted offspring.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is a big farm out on the west coast that really, really breeds for moonspots and they have a lot of them.  When I say a big farm they have over 100 kids per year.
> They say they have quality with color, but I haven't seen anything to back up the quality part other than they have animals from a lot of well known farms.
> 
> But, they seem at this time to have a business model that is working for them.
Click to expand...


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## Hens and Roos

@Southern by choice, this was taken about 1.5 months after kidding, her does were with her all the time so never got a good overnight fill...we didn't have a good way to separate the kids over night given how many buckling we had.


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## Southern by choice

Hens and Roos said:


> @Southern by choice, this was taken about 1.5 months after kidding, her does were with her all the time so never got a good overnight fill...we didn't have a good way to separate the kids over night given how many buckling we had.



Ok, so when you look at her udder- even though she doesn't have much fill right now what do you see?
What do you like?
What do you think needs improvement?


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## Bayleaf Meadows

I liked this photo of @OneFineAcre's does' udders because you can see consistency in the breeding program.


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## Southern by choice

Good pic- now what would OFA say he wants to improve?

Personally the two closest to the screen I like the udder arch and height
The third from us I like the teat placement

Bayleaf- your doe just freshened- that would be a good pic... what do you like what do you want to improve? Of course right now she will have a lot of edema.


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## TAH

Only pics I ever got from my girl but I thought I could post! 

These pics were taken after milking. 

Things I would like to have seen improved? 

She could have had a better attachment in the front, Teats more straight down (they tilted forward), along with a wider rump and hips for more udder room (her hips were pretty tight), That's all I can notice. 

This girl was a dream to milk!


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## TAH

Very good thread... Now I'm just dieing to get moved and settled to get goats again (not getting kikos)!


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## Bayleaf Meadows

@Southern by choice -  I haven't gotten any photos of Zaph's udder yet, but she will not be a milker this year.  I am going to dry off the rest of the herd soon and she will be only nursing her kids.  We're planning to be away in late January so we don't want to have to have someone milking any of the goats then. She has a nice udder, high and tight, and just ok capacity. My experience may be different from many.  I don't pull kids, I haven't shown or milk test.  I'm a relaxed, once a day milker for my own use and the pleasure of being around goats.


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## OneFineAcre

I can tell you that Zamia wasn't full in that pic.

Clarabelle ended up placing first in that group, Taffy 2nd, Zamia 3rd and Rosie 4th.

I wouldn't change to much about Zamia or Clarabelle.  Both Rosie and Taffy's teats could be a little better placed, but not to bad, I've seen worse.  All have good  sized teats that hand milk easy.


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## Hens and Roos

Southern by choice said:


> Ok, so when you look at her udder- even though she doesn't have much fill right now what do you see?
> What do you like?
> What do you think needs improvement?



Looking at the picture:
She might have a bit more capacity in her udder if we could separate her from her kids over night.
Her medial suspensory ligament could be better/stronger-
She seems narrow rear udder arch
She does pretty well kidding but her rump width could be wider- the single buck she had in 2016 was a harder delivery for her 
To be extremely honest- I don't really care for her udder-the small teats make it hard to hand milk. We have used a hand milker on her and that works okay.

so improvement wise- better sized teats(diameter) for easy hand milking, a stronger medial suspensory ligament, higher rear udder arch and rear udder height

What I do like about her is she does a very good job of raising healthy kids- has produced enough milk to handle triplets, hardy as far as us not having to treat her for parasites all  the time(only treated 2 times since we have had her).

Any feedback is appreciated


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## Southern by choice

Keep in mind - starting this thread was to look at udders, and discuss what we like, what we don't , what we would change etc.
Actually @Bayleaf Meadows you are exactly what the majority of goat owners are-


Bayleaf Meadows said:


> I don't pull kids, I haven't shown or milk test. I'm a relaxed, once a day milker for my own use and the pleasure of being around goats.



Regular udder shots when just brought up for milking are better for the purpose of this thread. 
That is what the majority of the people here on BYH have.  

Similar to what the video @Bayleaf Meadows  put up- none of the goats are in show fills, just goats coming up for milking.

The majority of people here are not doing LA, Milktest, or showing. We have all kinds of FB groups for that- this is just for BYH that want to do some better things with their goats. I actually find more people get discouraged by seeing a bunch of great udder shots, what most don't realize is unless you have been breeding for forever and have had whole herd consistency for 15-20 years there are a whole lot of not so great udders... those udders are never showcased. These are the goats sold to BYH and homesteaders... they are perfectly good goats but may not meet the criteria to stay in the herd. Those same goats however can generally be improved, so they can be excellent starter goats. 

For us we are small, there are goats that may not be stellar but still worth me breeding up. Makes me a better breeder, I learn a lot more.
I am sure we will learn a whole lot during LA. It will be a great tool for us. I can't do this for every doe- having a few brood does is one thing but I don't want a whole herd.

I am working on putting folders together so I can post pics with more ease. 

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Hens and Roos said:


> Looking at the picture:
> She might have a bit more capacity in her udder if we could separate her from her kids over night.
> Her medial suspensory ligament could be better/stronger-
> She seems narrow rear udder arch
> She does pretty well kidding but her rump width could be wider- the single buck she had in 2016 was a harder delivery for her
> To be extremely honest- I don't really care for her udder-the small teats make it hard to hand milk. We have used a hand milker on her and that works okay.
> 
> so improvement wise- better sized teats(diameter) for easy hand milking, a stronger medial suspensory ligament, higher rear udder arch and rear udder height
> 
> What I do like about her is she does a very good job of raising healthy kids- has produced enough milk to handle triplets, hardy as far as us not having to treat her for parasites all  the time(only treated 2 times since we have had her).
> 
> Any feedback is appreciated


I do like how the distance between the vulva and top of esctcheon is very close! 
I agree with your assessment, it does look like her lateral attachments need improvement. 
She has lots of positive qualities, it will be exciting to see how the bucks improve with her daughters. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will put up one pic- 
Everyone should play 
Do you see the nice 1/3,1/3,1/3?
What can you see about this udder?
What can't you see about this udder?
This is overnight- taken just before milking. NOT a full udder


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> I will put up one pic-
> Everyone should play
> Do you see the nice 1/3,1/3,1/3?
> What can you see about this udder?
> What can't you see about this udder?
> This is overnight- taken just before milking. NOT a full udder


Which one is that?

IMO...

I love her plumb teats. It looks to me like she could use more rear udder height, but it might be lower because she's not full. I don't see a pocket in her foreudder in this angle of the photo, but she could maybe use more foreudder extension if I'm being picky. I'd love to see a rear udder pic!


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## Southern by choice

Green Acres Farm said:


> Which one is that?
> 
> IMO...
> 
> I love her plumb teats. It looks to me like she could use more rear udder height, but it might be lower because she's not full. I don't see a pocket in her foreudder in this angle of the photo, but she could maybe use more foreudder extension if I'm being picky. I'd love to see a rear udder pic!



_(I will put up one pic- 
Everyone should play 
Do you see the nice 1/3,1/3,1/3?
What can you see about this udder?
What can't you see about this udder?
This is overnight- taken just before milking. NOT a full udder)_

Thanks @Green Acres Farm 
I like your assessment 
The rear udder pics will follow... what I was hoping to show is from a side udder shot you can only see so much.
This is a close up which most pics are not... so you even see less.

You are spot on with the fact she is NOT uddered up... something I think is important when looking at udders
What you can see:
the third third third
teat length
teat size
some of the foreudder

What you cannot see:
teat placement- are they close to the leg? centered?
teat shape- (do they flare out) from side view you cannot see this
full shape of foreudder- is there a split?
rear udder attachment, medial, capacity, lateral attachments (side attachment)


LOL I used "paint" to show some observations-
See the yellow circle? There is a shadow there- what does that mean? Is it just she is not uddered up? Is the udder too far forward?
If she were really full would you expect it to look like the red outline? Also if really full would the teats point more downward rather than forward?


 


I think this can be a really good and fun thread for everyone!
Most goats are being milked for family use and will never do more than be a family pet and milker... these goats I love!
But when thinking about the pet/family milker they still need to be bred and produce kids in order to milk so why not try and do some things that will help improve the offspring?
Some kids will be kept as replacement does, some will be sold... improving each generation can make a big difference.
When you don't have good rear legs, or too narrow or "pinched" escutcheon this affects the udder placement, the attachments and overall the longevity of the goat as far as being a milker. The udder will break down much faster.  Some goats are basically done by 5 years old their udder is such a mess. For the homesteader, that can be costly.  Bad orifices are also a nightmare.

Anyone following that needs clarification n terms please speak up. 
I think the paint diagrams are helpful, I will keep doing them if you all like... let me know.

I will put some rear pics up soon. 

I also thing knowing "the rest of the story " behind this goat is important.  That is the "whole goat" picture that I personally like to look at.


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## Green Acres Farm

This is my Saanen, 2F and a few months into her lactation.

I love her medial and teat placement (although you might say they are too close as they touch during some stages of her lactation/fill). She could use a wider rear udder arch. Definitely could use more capacity and her udder doesn't milk down as much as I'd like. I'd like a higher rear udder, but I wouldn't say it is super low. The buck's dam we bred her to scored a 44 in rear udder height, so hopefully he will improve that. Overall, I'd say it's a nice udder.

Other critiques are welcome!


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## Southern by choice

How long of a fill?
Can I draw on this?


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> How long of a fill?
> Can I draw on this?


12 hr.
Of course!


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## Southern by choice

Those lateral attachments look great! IMO (Yellow marker)
I agree with all you say. 
The parts in red- did she have any injury to the teats? They are differently shaped.
The right side teat- how is the orifice? Tight? Small? 
This is me just talking out loud- wondering... she does have a pretty medial but I wonder about the medial sometimes. This is where when we get LA'd I think will be helpful to understand more- but anyway- my thoughts... when I see a real pronounced medial it seems over years the udder ends up split... the teats end up really bulbous.  Do you have any thoughts or insight on this?
Just something I have noticed.
They say the medial is real important to keep the udder up, I am sure there is much more to it, but Millie has a strong medial and her udder is now really split- got worse over the years, teats just go right down from the udder.

I also wonder about where the milk is stored, so to speak.... some goats have milk stored higher up, some lower. 
I will have to try and get some pics of what I mean.

I like her udder too, and very cool that you bred according to where you saw the need. 
Do you have side view? foreudder?


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## Hens and Roos

really enjoying reading and learning, the marking to show helps with understanding!


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> The parts in red- did she have any injury to the teats? They are differently shaped.


Actually, yes. I bought a cheap hand milker and the first time I used it on only one teat. It turned purple! Of course, that was the last time I used it. I'm not sure if the difference in size is due to that or single kids.


Southern by choice said:


> The right side teat- how is the orifice? Tight? Small?


She is the only standard sized goat I milk, so I can't really compare it. I would say it is pretty good, but maybe not as good as it could be.


Southern by choice said:


> This is me just talking out loud- wondering... she does have a pretty medial but I wonder about the medial sometimes. This is where when we get LA'd I think will be helpful to understand more- but anyway- my thoughts... when I see a real pronounced medial it seems over years the udder ends up split... the teats end up really bulbous. Do you have any thoughts or insight on this?
> Just something I have noticed.
> They say the medial is real important to keep the udder up, I am sure there is much more to it, but Millie has a strong medial and her udder is now really split- got worse over the years, teats just go right down from the udder.


I've never thought about that. You are right in that her teats have gotten a lot bigger than compared to her FF udder. For me, I like her teat size for hand milking, but we'll see how she holds up. I *possibly* may get her LA'd at a host herd next year and would be interested to see what the appraiser thinks.

I don't have fore udder pics, but she has a pretty smooth fore udder, but minimal extension.

Her rear udder height definitely looks better the fuller she is, but it also doesn't fill only from bottom to top. This may be attributed to a "meaty" udder?


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## Southern by choice

@Green Acres Farm - later I will put up Millie!  She is one of my favorite goats but has the worst udder- yet we will continue breeding up with her! Some may find the reasons why interesting... others may think I'm nuts. 

Now I'm going to go back to that side udder shot from earlier.
Take a look at this and critique it.  click to enlarge
same goat ff udder


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## Southern by choice

Hens and Roos said:


> really enjoying reading and learning, the marking to show helps with understanding!


I am glad, I am enjoying it too.
I have learned alot over the years, and am still learning so much. 
When I talk to breeders that have exceptional herds and that are very well established the one thing they all say is that they are always trying to improve. That says a lot to me. These are some of the best breeders in the country and yet they are encouraging, share their wisdom, and at least the ones I talk to are humble. I am very blessed to have the wisdom of those that have years of experience. 
I know there are amazing fantastic goats in people's backyards and I think that is what makes it fun for me. 
I love goats, simply love them! No herd has perfect everything on every goat.


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> @Green Acres Farm - later I will put up Millie!  She is one of my favorite goats but has the worst udder- yet we will continue breeding up with her! Some may find the reasons why interesting... others may think I'm nuts.
> 
> Now I'm going to go back to that side udder shot from earlier.
> Take a look at this and critique it.  click to enlarge
> same goat ff udder
> View attachment 40731


IMO...


I like the rear udder arch. Teat placement/medial could be better. Teats are tilted forward a bit more than I'd like. I'd like to see her vulva so I can see how high it is. Personally, I like udder clips where the side attachments are visible, but I know some people differ on this and like only the udder clipped. I'd imagine they are nice from the way the udder is held above the hocks with the nice rear udder arch.


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## Southern by choice

LOL it looks like a face! 

So this is the same goat 3F overnight fill... so she is NOT full.
Her lateral attachments (RED) are not long enough and the udder is too far forward- not extreme though but you can see where the line is (YELLOW) and the arrows are pointing showing you it is a bit too far forward. She actually has a good arch but because the forward udder and the shadows it makes it harder to see.
She has nice capacity and with a fill most of this would not be as noticeable- IOW- some things are hidden from those real full udders.
As you can see their is hardly any medial.

So... this I why I don't put much into a FF udder. Of course you can see some things but as they progress with freshenings you see more.
I wish I had some full udder pics 

Her teats are dreamy! Large and long making for milking a Nigerian very easy. Those long handles make a difference. 
She milks wonderfully, wonderful orifices, very soft skin (dairy skin).

Our friend has her sister and her lateral attachments are better. 
We put bucks over this doe that have sisters and dam/grand dam that are stronger in that area. 
Not every goat we have or work with has LA... so that is where you need to also really look at the goat. 

Her sister(my friend has) and this doe milk with the most incredible ease... they are hard working does that are the easiest of keepers.
Our doe makes milk easily with orchard hay, field forage and very little feed. She is the world's slowest eater (which is so weird because Nigies LOVE their food and tend to inhale everything) we leave on the stand to eat because I swear the goat eats one pellet at a time. 
She always keeps excellent condition, kids great, and has excellent parasite resistance. EXCELLENT! *This is a no fuss no muss forever keeper goat! *We have been very pleased with the kids from this doe.

Keep in mind some goats and she is one, once you start cleaning their udder to milk them they start dropping or letting down... and that makes a difference as well... not sure but more than likely she was already cleaned and letting down when this was taken.

We have another doe I might be able to get a pic of showing this...  all the goats are getting dried off, but one is on once a day milking and she is a good example.


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## Southern by choice

There is a fantastic discussion on FB about LA. One of the appraisers just piped in - in a nutshell said too many rely on the final score and not on the process and it is your herd that you see every day...how the final score is used more for marketing than anything else. 
Many others are sharing how the low scoring animal ended up phenomenal and produced awesome goats! 
No one is discounting the process, just reminding people that don't be too quick to cull based on a score. There may be qualities that a goat or goats have that are great in your herd... use the data... improve.

This was very encouraging to read. The emphasis was that LA is a TOOL! Not the end all be all.


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## Hens and Roos

These picture are of Rio(Lamancha) FF:
This one was taken about 1 month into lactation with her doeling with her 24/7, nice easy to hand milk, smooth udder.  




Side view-taken at fair about 3 months into lactation.  Can't wait to see how she does as a 2F.




Any thoughts appreciated.


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## Southern by choice

She is going to have a gorgeous udder I think!
Width is awesome
lateral attachments fantastic
foreudder looks beautiful
height is great!

Her teats are forward but I wonder if next freshening when she really starts producing if that will improve... IOW when udder fills that can pull those teats down some. I bet she is a great hand milker too!
How are her orifices?


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## Hens and Roos

Southern by choice said:


> She is going to have a gorgeous udder I think!
> Width is awesome
> lateral attachments fantastic
> foreudder looks beautiful
> height is great!
> 
> Her teats are forward but I wonder if next freshening when she really starts producing if that will improve... IOW when udder fills that can pull those teats down some. I bet she is a great hand milker too!
> How are her orifices?



Her orifices seem good, we hand milk her and can milk her out pretty quick- my DS(12) really likes to milk her and does a really good job of milking her out


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## OneFineAcre

Southern by choice said:


> There is a fantastic discussion on FB about LA. One of the appraisers just piped in - in a nutshell said too many rely on the final score and not on the process and it is your herd that you see every day...how the final score is used more for marketing than anything else.
> Many others are sharing how the low scoring animal ended up phenomenal and produced awesome goats!
> No one is discounting the process, just reminding people that don't be too quick to cull based on a score. There may be qualities that a goat or goats have that are great in your herd... use the data... improve.
> 
> This was very encouraging to read. The emphasis was that LA is a TOOL! Not the end all be all.


 I read that discussion too


Southern by choice said:


> There is a fantastic discussion on FB about LA. One of the appraisers just piped in - in a nutshell said too many rely on the final score and not on the process and it is your herd that you see every day...how the final score is used more for marketing than anything else.
> Many others are sharing how the low scoring animal ended up phenomenal and produced awesome goats!
> No one is discounting the process, just reminding people that don't be too quick to cull based on a score. There may be qualities that a goat or goats have that are great in your herd... use the data... improve.
> 
> This was very encouraging to read. The emphasis was that LA is a TOOL! Not the end all be all.



I read that discussion just now
You forgot to mention the discussion was about First Fresheners 
And I agree you can't go by a total score for a FF
Absolutely when someone has a goat and they say their dam scored an 89 as a FF "the highest score a FF can get"  Yeah just marketing


----------



## OneFineAcre

But I will agree 100 percent that LA score is a great marketing tool for animals
I would rather be selling a kid whose dam had a high score than a low score or no score
But people use a lot of things to market animals

There were just a whole bunch of people who posted their animals were on the "Elite" list.
Some get letters that their animals got "superior genetics"
Some talk about their milk stars
Some talk about their show wins
Some talk about how their sister won a show
I have definitely seen it all


----------



## Goat Whisperer

… and I think all the breeders/owners should be proud of their work! Good for them for participating in these programs.  

Just think, a few years ago you did your first LA and Milk test. Before that you showed your goats. Before that you had a few pets (If I remember right- could be wrong  ) 

I think there is a natural progression. Everyone has to start somewhere


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## OneFineAcre

Goat Whisperer said:


> … and I think all the breeders/owners should be proud of their work! Good for them for participating in these programs.
> 
> Just think, a few years ago you did your first LA and Milk test. Before that you showed your goats. Before that you had a few pets (If I remember right- could be wrong  )
> 
> I think there is a natural progression. Everyone has to start somewhere



You are absolutely right 

I remember very well when we had our first success in the show ring people saying " you can't go by show wins you have to look at LA and milk test to really judge an animal"
And then when we did milk test and LA then they became less important 
But we feel really confident about what we are doing so I think we will stick with it


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## Southern by choice

Yep, I think it is really cool how many goat people (not all, but many) are willing to help another goat enthusiast. 
Goats are just such amazing animals! 

I am glad we are doing this thread. Many people don't realize that most herds, and the best ones out there included, still have goats that somehow got gypped in the genetics pass down... or a particular line up didn't work... but they don't put those pics up. 
Not saying that in a negative way... we all want to put our best up but  showing your worst , in between,  etc can be so helpful.


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## Southern by choice

Come on guys--- where are your goats udders?


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## frustratedearthmother

Between their back legs.....


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## Southern by choice

frustratedearthmother said:


> Between their back legs.....




you stinker!

Now you have to put up a pic of and udder you like or don't like and say what you'd improve since you wanted to be  a smart***


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## Bayleaf Meadows

Second freshener Bella, six months into lactation. Not set up really well.


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## Southern by choice

@Bayleaf Meadows  What do you like about her udder and milking and what would you like to see improved?

Personally I like seeing udders of when they are not uddered up... just normal fill from the schedule the person uses.
Since you milk once a day are the kids separated at all? Are they still sneaking milk?


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## frustratedearthmother

You asked, lol.


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## Southern by choice

Ohmy goodness... I just want to run over and  pick her up and cuddly her. 
So freakin cute.  Look at those lil baby teeny tiny adorableness legs! Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

That udder looks pretty darn stellar from all the pygmy's I've seen!

Do tell... what do you like? what would you change?

Oh the cuteness... I'm so giddy right now. 
LOL GW glanced over and thought I'd typed what do you charge! 

I want a pygmy just like her!


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## Wehner Homestead

As someone that is new to dairy goats, something that I'm trying to understand is "milks down to nothing." Can anyone show a comparison of an udder before milked and after milked that fits the above statement? I have two Does in milk but I'm too inexperienced to classify their udders in this sense.


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## Wehner Homestead

This is Nellie. She's a FF. She had a single buckling in April. He was weaned and then she was milked once a day until I could pick her up about a week later. Her production has waxed and waned, I'm sure in part due to me learning how to milk! Anyway her typical is about 2 cups for the day. She's was penned with a buck during a strong heat so I should know next week if it was successful or not. This pic is from July and was about 12 hr fill as she gets milked twice a day. I don't have a side pic as I didn't know the importance of those yet at that time. I am excited to see what she can do in the future. Note: She's extremely easy to milk. Once I get her to let-down, my 6 yr old can almost empty her. I just follow to make sure it was done properly and to do the second let-down and final stripping.


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## Wehner Homestead

I should add that her teats need to be more midline and point down, not out. She's a Nigerian Dwarf, about 18 mos old now.


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## OneFineAcre

Wehner Homestead said:


> As someone that is new to dairy goats, something that I'm trying to understand is "milks down to nothing." Can anyone show a comparison of an udder before milked and after milked that fits the above statement? I have two Does in milk but I'm too inexperienced to classify their udders in this sense.



Zamia









Clarabelle









Rosemary


----------



## Southern by choice

I had to scrounge to find it- so the milk out pic isn't from the same day... it was not in the udder file...but it is the same goat- she will even milk out a bit more than in this pic- this goat will literally milk out like a glove- flat and empty.


----------



## Southern by choice

Wehner Homestead said:


> This is Nellie. She's a FF. She had a single buckling in April. He was weaned and then she was milked once a day until I could pick her up about a week later. Her production has waxed and waned, I'm sure in part due to me learning how to milk! Anyway her typical is about 2 cups for the day. She's was penned with a buck during a strong heat so I should know next week if it was successful or not. This pic is from July and was about 12 hr fill as she gets milked twice a day. I don't have a side pic as I didn't know the importance of those yet at that time. I am excited to see what she can do in the future. Note: She's extremely easy to milk. Once I get her to let-down, my 6 yr old can almost empty her. I just follow to make sure it was done properly and to do the second let-down and final stripping.


That is a really good sign that she milks out easily!
You will see a considerable difference in her production as a 2nd freshener.  As she gets more capacity those teats may pull in a bit.
Really glad to see she is even considering she had a single, either the kid did a good job nursing from both sides or you did a good job keeping her even.


----------



## Wehner Homestead

Thank you for the "milk out" pics. Nellie doesn't milk out as well as I'd like. (I think. ) 

I have another FF that I'm milking (no pics yet) and she does empty out. I'll see if I can get some pics of her. I like her teat placement and the size of her teats for a FF. I'm interested to see what she does the next time around. I plan on breeding her again in April.


----------



## Southern by choice

@Wehner Homestead  the things you want to improve on is where the buck  comes in.... do you have a buck already and do you know how he contributes?


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## Wehner Homestead

I do have a buck already and I'm getting another. I'll post them...

King: He is unproven. Nellie's spring kids will be his first. I'll post the required pics. First two are King. (He hasn't been shaved yet. I'll do that in the spring.) Next three pics are his dam and her udder.


----------



## Wehner Homestead

My new buck is Night. He is polled.


----------



## Southern by choice

Wehner Homestead said:


> My new buck is Night. He is polled.


how old is he? Is he adga registered?


----------



## Wehner Homestead

Both are ADGA. One registered, one has the app I need to send in. I'll see if I can get pics posted. Night (new one is first.) Next is King's littermate brother's info, he's the one I need to send in the app on. Brother is in the pic.


----------



## OneFineAcre

Wehner Homestead said:


> I do have a buck already and I'm getting another. I'll post them...
> 
> King: He is unproven. Nellie's spring kids will be his first. I'll post the required pics. First two are King. (He hasn't been shaved yet. I'll do that in the spring.) Next three pics are his dam and her udder.



His dam is a nice looking doe.


----------



## Bayleaf Meadows

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> Second freshener Bella, six months into lactation. Not set up really well.
> View attachment 40761View attachment 40762


Basically, I would like to add width.  My goal is to have udders like Zamia, OFA's doe.  That's why I have a buck out of Zamia with some good width on him to sire some of next year's kids.


----------



## Fullhousefarm

Off to find some udder pictures... I probably have a hundred. How many do you want?


----------



## Fullhousefarm

This is Secret a grade LM, FF. She has a super easy to milk udder, nice size teats, and great attachments. Yes, she's larger in body, but she outmilked one 6 yr old 4F, and almost tied with my herd's highest producer, another 6 yr old. (We are on milk test- so it's cool to see.) We don't have her dam anymore, but we did have her as a FF and Secret is a huge improvement on her dam, though her dams udder was correct, just not as capacious. This is normal morning milking fill early in lactation. We separate at night and they dam raise babies and are with them all day. She milked over 10# a day for over 6 months, and is past 305 days now. I'd like to see her teats point more down and she has a pretty significant pocket in her foreudder when very full. I'll try to find a side photo. I'm sure I have one from a fair.








This a 5 yr old 4th F. She is always complemented on her rear udder. Her udder is well balanced with a nice foreudder as well. She really needs larger teats for all this milk. She is very hard to milk by hand when she's full every morning early in lactation. Thankfully I have a machine. Honestly, this doe just needs more body capacity. She's nice, but is "always the bridesmaid, never the bride" because she needs a body to match her udder. 





This is Trixie. 5 yr old 3rd freshener in this pic. She's actually 6 and due in 10 days now. She's a super strong milker who is easy to milk by hand. She milked over 18 months her first lactation. Her udder isn't full in this photos because she does get much fuller in that top portion. She usually has to be milked before kidding because she gets super engorged a week prior to kidding and leaks everywhere. She has really nice oraphaces and would be a great "homesteading doe" and is a good herd queen. She could use a wider estuchen, IMO, and really needs more width between her front legs as well. Room for improvement, but a good foundation. 





Here is part of our Nigerian herd last January. You can see the doe on the right, Wattles has a very tight well attached udder that hides her milk. Great for longevity, not as impressive in the show ring. (None of these goats were significantly uddered for show. They had only been in milk a month so I go 12-14 hours and that's it because I don't want to kill milk production this early on- especially for a 3 days show.) Orchid is second from the left. She could use better attachment but it's not bad for the huge volume her little baby cranks out effortlessly every freshening (1223lb in 304 days this year for my milk test nerds). Queeny is next. She needs her teats to point more directly down for sure, but she has a really nice udder too, more similar to Wattles, actually. On the far left is Spice who ended up lop sided last year. She just freshened again two days ago, though, and I have to say her udder is not huge or super impressive like Orchid's but it is most correct in teat placement of all the Nigerians we have. She wasn't milked at all before we got her (6 months before this freshening shown) so I'm excited to see her full potential this year. She did earn her milk star last year despite me going to once a day with her around 4 months into her lactation and her baby was sold before that. 

None of these does were bred by us- so not a lot of consistency. My goal is to blend Orchid's udder with the style of Wattles/Queeny and hopefully get the best of both. Next year Wattles and Queen will both be bred to Orchid's son out of OFA Lord Drinian. We have retained two of Queen's daughters who will freshen in the spring.


----------



## Southern by choice

These are great pics and examples @Fullhousefarm 

Do you have any pics of how they milk out?
Love the capacity.  
I like a higher udder, so far we have that but we definitely lack capacity.
We have made some recent changes so we are hoping it is going to help. Our does come from high production Lamanchas yet ours are not producing anything like their dams (dams are #14-#16). We have an issue with our goats NOT eating any mineral... I think this causes the feed and  hay to do more with keeping them healthy but is preventing them from utilizing the feed to make milk. Basically  the lack of minerals IMO is a key factor- not with the nigerians, they are fine it is the Standards. UGH-  Any thoughts?

We have tried so many minerals- they will NOT touch them 
We just started a new kind and they are actually eating them... so we will see. 
Adding the cobalt block as well.

On the one you wish had bigger teats... how is her skin? very dairy? So so? Not? 
We notice the goats that have the best dairy skin have teats that plump better...


----------



## Fullhousefarm

Well, the Lamancha with smaller teats than I prefer has very dairy skin. So not sure we see that in our herd. Honestly, I think all the Senior LMs we have have pretty similar skin. She does have the finest, shiniest, slow growing hair (a plus for show clipping) for sure. Never looks shaggy even unclipped. I have some milked out photos. They all milk out great once any edema after kidding goes down. Rubys dry udder looks like one from a FF- I'll try to take a photo tomorrow. 

I will say I dry them off really slow. I think it is mostly because I feel their pain as nursing my own kids is fresh in my mind. LOL. I go once a day, every other day, Every two days, etc, Don't know what to say about the minerals. I will say that we feed a goat blend from a local mill. Then I try to keep peanut of alfalfa for the milkers, but it's not free choice. I just can't afford that here. Some just love to milk. Others dry off fast once I skip a day. I'm having to milk Orchid once a day even though shes feeding TRIPLETS right now. She puts everything into her milk, though. After having quads it usually takes her 4-6 weeks before shes in show condition. 


Southern by choice said:


> These are great pics and examples @Fullhousefarm
> 
> Do you have any pics of how they milk out?
> Love the capacity.
> I like a higher udder, so far we have that but we definitely lack capacity.
> We have made some recent changes so we are hoping it is going to help. Our does come from high production Lamanchas yet ours are not producing anything like their dams (dams are #14-#16). We have an issue with our goats NOT eating any mineral... I think this causes the feed and  hay to do more with keeping them healthy but is preventing them from utilizing the feed to make milk. Basically  the lack of minerals IMO is a key factor- not with the nigerians, they are fine it is the Standards. UGH-  Any thoughts?
> 
> We have tried so many minerals- they will NOT touch them
> We just started a new kind and they are actually eating them... so we will see.
> Adding the cobalt block as well.
> 
> On the one you wish had bigger teats... how is her skin? very dairy? So so? Not?
> We notice the goats that have the best dairy skin have teats that plump better...


----------



## lalabugs

Here are some pics of Marshmallow this morning after an 11 hour fill. Thoughts?

I need to shave her again. Marshmallow is a FF. These were just quick pics I snapped before milking her.


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## Southern by choice

Southern by choice said:


> That is what we see with Millie- I will post pics soon. It really does link back to weak attachments. Linked to that is the rear legs.
> She will wear out!
> BUT lol, we have put good bucks over her and all but one breeding has produced much nicer animals.
> 
> I love her hardiness, parasite resistance, no fuss no muss diet. She is an incredible forager that prefers forage when the hay feeder has the best orchard or alfalfa... you find her in the field eating whatever. She is one that will never leave the farm so better for us to put good bucks over her and retain kids and continue to breed up.
> 
> I'll try to put up the progression of decline if I can find all the pics.
> I will also try and put up offspring pics.



I seriously cannot find the pics from last year.  But I did find a few other prior kidding /udder pics.  But this is why we use a good buck... I love Millie's productivity and her sweet milk- that part we want to keep but work on that whole rear.

This is her daughter Tiffany. Tiffany was bred to our buck Chance. Tiffany is Recorded Grade 50% we will keep her doeling from this year as Tiffany was bred to Black Tie Affair, and he will bring so much to the table. At least we hope.   It is funny with all the Lamanchas, Tiffany's doe and buck are easy to spot- they are beefy and wide and clearly not "refined". LOVE them. The buck of course will be wethered. He is a beast.
This is a nice example of buck influence.
*Tiffany-  *Wider escutcheon,distance between vulva and top of escutcheon is very close! Lateral attachments are much better and run "further down"
FF udder evening milking - no fill. I couldn't get a good side shot with the light . But you can see the placement of the udder is much better. They legs are also placed well, no cow hocked legs like her dam. This is a super wide doe. 
*

 
The pedigree- basically showing buck's side-
 

Sweet Pea* was not bred this year so we will wait- she is a Millie doeling as well, but different sire... so it will be interesting to see what he brings to the table.
Right now she looks like she has good width, nice escutcheon, good legs, she is very level.





Now- here is* Millie*- 
Udder is too far forward- the udder over time is dividing the halves more obvious (look at both pics) teats are bulbous and outward flare.
In the second pic you can see how the lack of really good attachments mean the udder will start to sag with the weight of the milk. 
Her lateral attachments are high up . She has her tail down - the distance between vulva and escutcheon are not bad but with out being full and the lag it seems greater than what it is.
You can also see how she is cow-hocked.

  

I will try to put up pics of Ruby when I can... it shows how good breeding makes a difference longterm. Ruby is over 8 years old and that udder is socked on! 

Anyway, hope you all enjoyed the "good bad and ugly" update.


----------



## Southern by choice

Snapped these this am (actually now it would be yesterday morning)

Zephyr 3rd freshening  15 days fresh, no edema, best hand milking teats ever!!!!!!!!


 

Raina- FF  13 days fresh no edema, looks flat but I included a angle shot below  she has her right leg forward which is throwing her udder balance off a bit


 

Raina & Zephyr


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## Southern by choice

This doe is  8+ years old! Ruby (Nubian)...


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## Wehner Homestead

I got some 8 hr fill pics of Diamond. She’s a 2F with trips each time. She’s 2.5 mos fresh and still dam raising Jasmine, the doeling, of the trips (bucklings weaned at 8 wks.) She kept trying to get into that squatting milk stance and I was on my own...we get about 2-2.5 cups after an 8 hr fill. She’s still holding back for Jasmine (little thing is fat like a full tick!)


----------



## Sweet horizon Nigerians

This is an udder of my first freshener who is raising twin bucklings at 16 days fresh. 
Definitely need improvement on teat size and fore udder attachments other than that I am pretty certain she has the best udder in my herd. 
Maybe some better MSL, higher rear attachment?


 

 


Do you see the little pocket?


----------



## Southern by choice

I think this is a very nice udder!  And she is a FF! WOW.


----------



## Sweet horizon Nigerians

Southern by choice said:


> I think this is a very nice udder!  And she is a FF! WOW.


Thank you! I thought it was nice but wanted some more experienced people's opinions.
I just really wish she had bigger teats would make it so much easier to milk
If that was to me lol @Southern by choice


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## Southern by choice

Sweet Prynne kidded. 13 months old two tiny kids- we thought based on udder size and her size she would have a single. To our surprise two teeny tiny lamanchas... buck/doe twins... together they make a whole lamancha kid. LOL  The doeling is tiny but very correct! The buckling is all legs right now but looks good.

So here is her little udder. I love the super soft texture. shape and attachments are all good. 




One in the light from a few days ago
 
She was just milked out here but she looks pretty good for twins at 13 months.  The red is not copper deficiency- she has sable in her... it really shows up when her coat is long and the sun hits it.
She doesn't have the greatest capacity but she is young and I still like her attachments, the fore udder is really nice. That udder is in there tight. So far I am happy. 


@Wehner Homestead  Cece will have some red sable in her too.


----------



## Wehner Homestead

Interesting! CeCe looks jet black for now. I’ll have to watch and see when the sable starts to show through.


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## Wehner Homestead

I have some updated udder pics...

Diamond: 2F, just over 3 mos fresh with trips (1 still nursing during the day), 10 hr fill, getting just under 2 cups but still holding some back despite a massage, thinking udder is “meaty.”: 



 
I like the size of her udder, her medial (difficult to see due to her hair/coloring/lighting), she has a nice fore udder, and I think her udder is positioned properly. It’s not been full enough to see if she does the 1/3 properly. I’d like to work on her lateral attachments, make her escutcheon higher and wider, and move her teats in some. Her orifices aren’t as nice as some of the others but she does milk out nicely by hand. 

Snowflake: FF, just over 3 weeks fresh with trips, 10 hr fill, getting 2 1/4 cups without an additional letdown: 
(I was holding her off the wall for this pic) 


 
(Against the wall pic) 


 
(Side pic showing thirds and fore udder some) 


 
I love this goat! She hand milks like a dream with huge orifices and holds nothing back. Her udder is really soft. Her medial is actually pretty good despite my picture skills but could be a tad more defined. I like how high and wide her escutcheon is with good laterals. I also think she has good positioning with the 1/3s and I haven’t noted a fore udder issue but need to clip her to make sure. I’d like to see her teats moved in. IMHO, probably the best ND udder I’m dealing with right now. (Caramel will freshen for us this fall and I can compare, though they are full sisters from different years. Caramel will be a 2F.) There’s a chance I’ll get this girl in the show ring this fall! 

Nellie: 2F with trips, just over 3 weeks fresh, 10 hr fill, getting just over 2 cups with a second letdown. 


 
Yikes! Her udder is a mess.  I bought her so I can say that. At the time, I had just started learning and didn’t know to ask for udder pics! Lol

So what I do like is her HUGE orifices. This makes milking her by hand a dream. She seems to have good laterals. What I don’t like is that her escutcheon needs to be wider, she has no medial, her teats flare and need moved in, her udder is way too far back, and when she’s full, her udder is rock hard. It takes a second for it to soften up enough to take advantage of those orifices. (I’ve mentioned in other posts that her milk stand manners, orifices, and potential for extended lactation which we are going to try are enough to keep her here and breed up.)


----------



## Southern by choice

@Wehner Homestead   Snowflake has a very pretty udder!
Nellie can milk though so you know my philosophy, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! It does look high and tight even if her teats point the wrong way 

Raina- milking 11 pounds now- last test 10.0 # even but was having some calcium issues  before that so we backed her off a bit... doing better now and doing 11#
this is 1 gallon bucket
We won't discuss the Nigies.  (except Ruth she is being a good girl)





Edit- above was morning milking only. The one gallon bucket  cannot hold 11#


----------



## Southern by choice

Edit- above was morning milking only. The one gallon bucket  cannot hold 11#


----------



## Southern by choice

These two were on the stand getting ready to be milked... I took the pic because I thought it was interesting.
Maybe tomorrow I will put up 3 goats to show age progression.

~The doe on the left is a 14 month old doe (today  ) FF she is progressing nicely as production is still going up - she is 13 days fresh here... she is also only  <6 hours full
  She had micro lamancha twins! (literally 2 kids that equaled the size of one goat lol)
~The doe on the right is 2 years 3 months and is 2 weeks 5 days fresh on <10 hours full- she had mini mancha twins so significantly smaller than full sized lamancha kids but bigger than the micro         lamanchas   This doe is dam raising and we bottle feed (we got tired, so decided to leave on mom at night)   We milk out anything she has in the morning which is usually nothing because the kids are on her, then we separate around 10-11 or so and milk in evening giving kids bottles in the day. Milk her out at night, leaving some for kids and they nurse through the evening and morning.

These two are half sisters out of the same dam but different sires. (The one on the right is a tall doe) 
What I thought was interesting is how much a difference a year makes.

The younger doe is doing great and increasing nicely- she is not full here because we left her milk out this am by accident and had to milk her in the afternoon for her kids to get their bottles. She is pushing 7 lbs... test will be in 2 weeks so it will be interesting to see what she does and the info on her, it will be her 1st test.

The 2 YO is so much bigger! Yes, she is tall but seeing them side by side really kinda wowed me. She is increasing, hard to know what she is currently doing because of the co- raising. On her first test she was 9 days fresh at 8.6#. We know she is over 9# but she may be close to 10.... we will see on test.

It would be neat to see their dam beside them. For size comparison. Their dam is the one that had the infection (gut) from the chaffhaye - it did some real damage to her villi, because of that she has absorption issues so she milks close to 8#. That is ok we are fine with 7-8 on her. But just the body size is really interesting. 
I guess because we see our goats all the time and we have slow growing goats it just took me by surprise to see that on the stand. I kinda don't notice that when I am just loving on them or they are just walking around.


 

Don't laugh but I am in the process of clipping everyone down, sometimes I get tired and need a break. This is Prynne.


 



 

Prynne is one of my favorites!  
Look at her as a 3 month old... and now.... 
  
Hoping she goes on to do good things .. she has earned her restricted leg (Jr GCH 3x)


----------



## rodriguezpoultry

Are we allowed to post photos of absolutely horrendous udders? I have a doe with a lopsided udder that I would like to breed to a better buck for a hopeful future doe. It's not even near future, just trying to learn what to look for as a future breeding for her.


----------



## Southern by choice

Absolutely. The thread is about exactly what you mention. Looking at what you have and using bucks to improve the offspring.

I need to update a few pics myself. I have examples of how a particular buck contributed to 3 separate does.


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## rodriguezpoultry

This is a doe I purchased approx. 4 weeks ago now. She was giving me less than a pint a day and has increased to 1.5 QT per day with 1x per day milking. Her kid was 5 months when I got her so I'm kind of shocked she was able to increase production like that.

From what I was told, she is at least 4 years old, but probably older. She was never milked by hand before I got her.


----------



## Southern by choice

rodriguezpoultry said:


> This is a doe I purchased approx. 4 weeks ago now. She was giving me less than a pint a day and has increased to 1.5 QT per day with 1x per day milking. Her kid was 5 months when I got her so I'm kind of shocked she was able to increase production like that.
> 
> From what I was told, she is at least 4 years old, but probably older. She was never milked by hand before I got her.


I'm guessing the kid only ate off one side and that is why she is lopsided.
There could be other factors, but that is my guess.
When you milk her what do you get out of each half? I know she is up to 1.5 qts/  do you get anything out of the small side at all?
Are these pics of when she is full? Before milking?


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## rodriguezpoultry

The first two pics are from when she is full, approx. 24 hours although I'm debating on milking in the AM too before I head into work at 6AM. I just want to prevent mastitis and feel she may need to be milked more often now that her milk has increased.

Each side gives the same amount of milk. I would have thought the smaller side would have given less but they are each equal. The elongated side is easier to milk but neither are difficult at all. 

The last pic is to show what the underside looks like after milking out completely.


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## Southern by choice

She may have had damage to one side of the udder. Or possibly mastitis at one time that damaged tissue.

It will be interesting to see how she freshens next time.
When do you plan on breeding her?

This is where a good buck will play a role in the offspring. 
The udder looks too far forward and the lateral attachments either are not visible or she lacks lateral attachments.

Bringing in a buck that will improve udder on future doelings is what you want to look for.


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## rodriguezpoultry

Oh I probably won't breed her until next year or so. I'm hoping she won't need to be freshened this year since she's producing so much more than I need right now. 

I'm in contact with a breeder at the moment that will hopefully allow a live cover for her when the time comes. I do not want to breed to a Nubian (so freaking loud!!!) and don't have the ability to keep a buck on hand at all times so hopefully I can pay for the live cover and have a start on her future doelings.

This doe is here to stay, she's like a giant puppy so I will build from her or wait until she passes to bring in another doe but I'd like to breed up with a buck that would help the future does.


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## Southern by choice

Breeding up is great. There are rewards to it as well. Especially when you love all things about a doe except the udder needs improved. I have a doe, farther back in the thread and we have built up off of her.  She has the sweetest milk. She is a Lamancha as well. 

Just make sure you test her and the buck you use should also be tested. At least for the bare minimum of CAE. We recommend CAE, Johnes, CL


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## rodriguezpoultry

Yep! She is clear and the person I'm hoping will allow it is clear as well per annual testing. Thank you!


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## Jesusfreak101

I am about to go milk I am going to post pictures I want to hear it all. I love this doe she a sweet girl. I love her milk completely obsessed she has a jersey cow(cream and sweetness wise best way for me to describe) like milk that everyone who tried it says it's the best milk they have had(I am about the only goat milk they have access to try lol I love to share cracks me up the 360 degree change some have). This is still her first freshing and if what y'all say about the next several that she increase I might be in milk heaven and won't need a third goat lol. She produces (I always for get to weigh) 1 1/2 quart jars- 2 quart jars off a milking once a day.


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## Bayleaf Meadows

What can you tell from a young doeling's teat placement, overall look as far as udders are concerned?  Anything?


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## Jesusfreak101

She not all that full this morning I didn't milk her on time yesterday. But I can post fuller pictures later.


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## Southern by choice

Really hard to tell much without an adequate fill.  She does appear to milk out beautifully though.  Having somewhat of a fill shows the udder height better as well as attachments. 
From these pics I would say she doesn't have enough support at the top  (escutcheon area) and that causes the udder to hang down. The udder is a bit too far forward and a narrow escutcheon. This is causing her legs to be in the position they are. 
Sounds far worse than it is. LOL   You have a lot of good to work with for offspring. Using a good buck that can improve rear leg placement, width and udder height would be advantageous. 
She looks in really good condition.  She also looks like she could make a lot of milk if given the chance... I know you don't want to do 2x day milking... but it would be nice to see what she could do. 
What freshening is this?
We have a trainwreck of a doe that gives the best milk, lots of milk, and is the hardiest of all goats. We kept her.  When I say train wreck I mean it. But by using good bucks her offspring have been amazing. 1 of her daughters has gone RCH 2x and GCH 2x has a Sr milking leg and was best udder in her class... this is NC where competition is tough.  We have bred that daughter and are retaining the doe kid... So, if you like her and feel all the qualities are outweighing the negatives then just "breed" up.


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## Jesusfreak101

This is her first. When she was being milked twice a day I was getting a gallon lol we had a hard time keeping up and having milk go bad. I wasn't ready to start making cheeses. She great milking but she the only one I milked so I am biased lol. I have to get some pictures of my current buck and see what y'all think I prefer not to sale him I love his temperament he very easy to handle even in a rut. My other girl is driving me crazy she still hasn't gave birth I haven't seen Buck try to mate her recently so I am pretty sure she was breed.


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## Jesusfreak101

This is her udder completely filled. I ll take a picture of my buck to see what y'all think I am still extremely new tp this. I picked these out for our homestead mostly because they the ones I fell in love with not so much for build lesson learned lol


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## Jesusfreak101

I thought I replied yesterday sorry must not have posted... Mmm.. 
Anyways this is her first freshing.ii was milking her twice a day, we were getting 3.5-4 quart jars every day I couldn't keep up by any means but I also wasn't prepared to be getting that much milk I figured we get enough to drink maybe with one. That wasnt I. Her case. Her sister is about to freshen finally she should be giving birth soon her udder starting to develop and her vulva swollen I excited.


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## Jesusfreak101

this is our buck he we got for his temperament he extremely sweet and easy to handle even in a full rut. I bottle feed him. He been learning to pull a wagon for me and the dang dog kept getting close as I was taking pictures not sure if that effected the out come of these.


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## Jesusfreak101

Out of all three he has the best feet now that I think about it.


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## Green Acres Farm

Here is one of my good-ish udders (IMO). I like pretty much everything about it except for a major lack of capacity. Nice height, attachment, teat placement, orfices, texture, and medial, just way too small for a Saanen. However, if I could get this exact udder on one of my Nigerians I would be so happy!


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## Green Acres Farm

@OneFineAcre how about showing what the 2018 ADGA National 1st place aged doe udder looked like?


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## Southern by choice

@Green Acres Farm  what freshening and how old is that doe?


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> @Green Acres Farm  what freshening and how old is that doe?


She was a FF, maybe 11 months old at the time? Buck jumped the 4’ fence before getting wethered...


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## Southern by choice

Green Acres Farm said:


> She was a FF, maybe 11 months old at the time? Buck jumped the 4’ fence before getting wethered...



Oh, well then I certainly wouldn't be upset about capacity. The structure IMO is very nice so worth keeping and letting her mature a bit more and see how that 2nd udder looks.


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## Green Acres Farm

Southern by choice said:


> Oh, well then I certainly wouldn't be upset about capacity. The structure IMO is very nice so worth keeping and letting her mature a bit more and see how that 2nd udder looks.


Thank you! I’ll keep her around until I see a 2nd freshening and hopefully that will come.


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## OneFineAcre

Southern by choice said:


> Oh, well then I certainly wouldn't be upset about capacity. The structure IMO is very nice so worth keeping and letting her mature a bit more and see how that 2nd udder looks.


x2
She has a nice udder


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## OneFineAcre

Green Acres Farm said:


> @OneFineAcre how about showing what the 2018 ADGA National 1st place aged doe udder looked like?




If you insist 

Side View







Rear View


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## Donna R. Raybon

Nubians loud?  When we used to show it was the Alpines and LaManchas that talked all night!  Even now if I go visit someone's herd, it is not Nubians making noise.   When I had +60 head you would visit and only hear swish of feet through the grass.  Anyone screaming meant something very wrong!!!  Baby lost from momma or someone hung up in fence, or some other catastrophe.  Now with a herd of nine, quiet unless something wrong.


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## Southern by choice

Donna R. Raybon said:


> Nubians loud?  When we used to show it was the Alpines and LaManchas that talked all night!  Even now if I go visit someone's herd, it is not Nubians making noise.   When I had +60 head you would visit and only hear swish of feet through the grass.  Anyone screaming meant something very wrong!!!  Baby lost from momma or someone hung up in fence, or some other catastrophe.  Now with a herd of nine, quiet unless something wrong.



At the shows... in our experience  Nubians and Nigerians.  
Here we have our first bratty lamancha that is loud. We realize it is just her in heat. and oh my.......... 
Lamanchas are known for being very quiet so that is very interesting.
I do wonder if the Nubian line has something to do with it as well. There are quite a few herds we have seen that are quiet and  are  only loud at feeding time pretty much like most goats.
Then there are others. We see in groups where neighbors have complained because the nubians were so loud.  

Like anything they are all different.


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## Hens and Roos

Southern by choice said:


> At the shows... in our experience  Nubians and Nigerians.
> Here we have our first bratty lamancha that is loud. We realize it is just her in heat. and oh my..........
> Lamanchas are known for being very quiet so that is very interesting.
> I do wonder if the Nubian line has something to do with it as well. There are quite a few herds we have seen that are quiet and  are  only loud at feeding time pretty much like most goats.
> Then there are others. We see in groups where neighbors have complained because the nubians were so loud.
> 
> Like anything they are all different.




Our 2 mini mancha's are loud each month when they are in heat.....but we have a wether right now that is the loudest of all


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## Donna R. Raybon

Green Acres Farm said:


> Here is one of my good-ish udders (IMO). I like pretty much everything about it except for a major lack of capacity. Nice height, attachment, teat placement, orfices, texture, and medial, just way too small for a Saanen. However, if I could get this exact udder on one of my Nigerians I would be so happy!
> 
> View attachment 51456 View attachment 51457




If this is a first freshener?  She is fine, even for Saanen.  Much better off with capacity increase at later freshening.   I have seen first fresheners blow suspensary, medial with too much capacity!!!


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## Green Acres Farm

Donna R. Raybon said:


> If this is a first freshener?  She is fine, even for Saanen.  Much better off with capacity increase at later freshening.   I have seen first fresheners blow suspensary, medial with too much capacity!!!


Yes.


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## Donna R. Raybon

Hens and Roos said:


> Our 2 mini mancha's are loud each month when they are in heat.....but we have a wether right now that is the loudest of all




yes, there are always 'talkers'  among any breed.  My own seem to always be lower on pecking order and a bit high strung.   I have had over the years a couple that were post child for screaming goat.  But, out of over 500 goats through 30 years, two or three mouthy ones is not too bad.


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## Jesusfreak101

Mine are Nubians they are quite when I am inside but the moment they see me or hear me they start talking loudly lol. They do talk if they are separated or have a issue. However the other day when we had a fox vistor they where completely quite. So but when Daisy had her head stuck she kept yelling.


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## Donna R. Raybon

Any breed will holler and carry on if separated away from herd or babies.


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## Mike CHS

I have said it before but I keep seeing these awesome pictures of these girls and their udders and I'm amazed that they can walk.


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## Donna R. Raybon

Actually being able to move comfortably is important.  A doe that is roached up and struggling to walk around her udder is noted and placed lower.  Udder has to be on a body that is not struggling to carry it.


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## Goat Mania

Hello everyone. Your critique will be appreciated. This is her 3rd freshening. She was affected with mastitis in her 2nd freshening.

The kids are 50% Saanen x 25% Boer x 25% Jamunapari

BTW what can one do to improve udder tissue health?


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## Goat Mania

Can udders like this ever be improved? Are they worth working on? 

There's a lot of great information on this thread!


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## Green Acres Farm

Goat Mania said:


> Hello everyone. Your critique will be appreciated. This is her 3rd freshening. She was affected with mastitis in her 2nd freshening.
> 
> The kids are 50% Saanen x 25% Boer x 25% Jamunapari


Her rear attachment/height/teat placement don’t look great IMO. She has a nicely defined medial, tho. She looks like she has good capacity from what I can see. How is her foreudder and udder texture?

I’ve never heard of Jamuniparis before.


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## Goat Mania

Fore udder is not much. She had about 2 litres in her last lactation. Not more. Texture is good. But not very soft. Doesn't deflate all the way in after milking. Her top udder, closer to her stomach is some what meaty

Jamunaparis are ancestors of Nubians. I have some pictures of them on my Facebook page. You'll love them 

https://www.facebook.com/munawwarahfarmssrilanka/


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## Jesusfreak101

This is my doe daisy it's her first freshing she nursin two twin doelings this is before milking I milk about 12 between the kids nursin she seems to have them o a shedules lol she nursea about nine or ten the wont them nurse till one they are two weeks old lol .I waiting for her sistue to kid before I can separate at night. Her left teat leaks up high at noon she extremlex full another reason I milk. I will post some better pictures tomorrow I thought. Had a good one but apparently not . I get 600 ml from her which is nearly one quart jar. I like her udder support more than her sisters but I like the size of her sisters teats. And she harder to milk out I swear I think I am done and the next thing I know there is still more it's a good problem to have lol.


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## Jesusfreak101

Here are the pictures tell me what y'all think


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