# Electric Fence; Not for goats and sheep?



## NachoFarm

We're getting set up to put up a new fence in a couple weeks and we currently have two goats and we're getting sheep at the end of June.  

The guy at the local co-op strongly suggested that we go with 4x4 page wire as opposed to any of the electric fence options.  This of course is going to bust our budget big time and although we want to do it right the first time, we were hoping to find some sort of middle ground price wise.  

He says we'll have a really hard time keeping goats and sheep behind a five-strand electric fence because of grounding issues and that they'll constantly test the fence.  Has anyone had success keeping goats and/or sheep contained with electric?  Any issues?  Any advice? Etc, etc...

My husband's brain is about to explode from crunching the numbers for the page wire.


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## Goatherd

The guy at the co-op speaks the truth.  You might have luck and have the exception to the rule, but goats and sheep do best behind woven wire fence along with two or more hot wires inside the woven fence.

Not only will it keep your sheep and goats in, it will also offer them more protection from predators.

Yes, you will find those that have had success with using only hot wire to confine them, but that is not the norm.

I agree with you that the cost is significantly increased, but since you want to do it right and hopefully only one time, woven fencing is the way to go.


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## NachoFarm

Ugh.  

Alright.  Any particulars about a woven wire fence that will help keep costs down with sacrificing the quality of the fence?

Such as the size and/or spacing of the posts?


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## Goatherd

I'm not the best one to answer your question regarding reducing cost as I didn't put my own fence it but had it done by an actual fence installer.

There are various qualities of woven fence and you have choices of wooden or metal T-posts to anchor the fence.  Size and types of gates are also to be considered.  If you're going to do the installation yourself, you will significantly reduce your costs.

I wish I could be of more help, but hopefully someone who has done their own fencing will be along to give you their advice.  Good luck in whatever you decide.


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## NachoFarm

That's alright.  I think I'm still hoping someone will chime in with a magical story about effective electric fencing for goats!    Seriously.  

We're talking about doing 4" cedars 18' apart with 3" cedars every 3' in between.  Almost $800 on posts alone!  Electric is so tempting because the posts can be so much further apart.


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## boykin2010

I use a 5 strand electric fence for sheep and they have never gotten out before. They respect it and never even test it. Sometimes, I forget to plug it back in for a few days and they dont notice. I do not own goats so I cannot tell you anything about how they would react to it. My neighbor has goats and I dont think 5 strand electric wire would keep them in.  I would not try it with goats since people say they seem more mischievous but if you can fence one part for the sheep, electric works great! The other part I would use woven wire for the goats. I have a friend who has sheep and she uses 3 strand electric wire for sheep and has no problem...


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## redtailgal

My goats are behind a four strand electric fence, and have never gotten out nor tested it to my knowledge.  To tell the truth, we have to weed eat or spray around our fence line because our goats wont go near the fence........we recently added new pasture and took down a section to allow them into the new area.  For two days they wouldnt cross where the fence USED TO BE, we had to drive them over the line.

My breeder keeps her herd of 40 boers behind the same type of four strand fence as I use, and does not have a problem either.

Build a solid electric fence, with a good charger that will make a believer out of them, and you'll be fine.


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## NachoFarm

Ok...hmm, we bought a Gallagher Power Plus M150 which is 1.5 joules?  We need one regardless to run our divider fences in the pasture.  Is that big enough?


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## DonnaBelle

We keep our goats, 20 Nubian does in one pasture, 3 Nubian bucks in another.  Right next to each other.

We use heavy duty wire, 3 strands.  7,000 volts coursing through.  

It is a lot cheaper than hard fence, and is also very easy to move.

We use electric poultry wire from Premier fence for the chickens, never lost a chicken, wings are not clipped.  

We have a friend that uses one wire of electric to contain his cattle.  No problems.

We have 380 acres, the perimeter of the ranch is hard fenced with barb wire.  Interior fencing is electric.

DonnaBelle


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## redtailgal

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Ok...hmm, we bought a Gallagher Power Plus M150 which is 1.5 joules?  We need one regardless to run our divider fences in the pasture.  Is that big enough?


I think it would be fine.


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## 20kidsonhill

My husband says the key to electric fence is heavy enough wire, don't go cheap on the thickness(guage) of the wire. AT least four strands, maybe 5, and the first one needs to be low enough.


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## sawfish99

We have 7 goats right now.  We started with about 1/3 acre fenced in with only 4 strand electric.  Initially, we only had 2 goats.  When 1 was taken into the barn for milking, the second would run through the electric to find the other.  Obviously, the solution was get more goats so they don't feel lonely in the pen.  That solution worked very well and we didn't have any escapes at all... until kidding season.
Kids just jump between the lines of electric.  They don't really figure out what zapped them.  The good news is, momma is afraid to approach the electric, so even when the kids went through it, they didn't stray more than a few feet from the pen since momma was still inside.  Usually, they jumped back into the pen on their own.

HOWEVER, since we are bringing bucks onto the property, I recently invested about $1600 in additional fencing. I put up 660 feet of Red Brand woven wire 4"x4" field fence.  I used 1 roll to create a small pen to contain the kids at night because I want to milk the does in the morning.  An electric pen doesn't work for hte reason discussed about.  The rest of that roll was used to start replacing the electric since I know when spooked, the goats will consider running through.  The buck pen is fully contained in field fencing.

For the field fencing, I put up pressure treated wood posts only on the corners, at a fence intersection (T insection of fencing), and on either side of a gate.  I used 4/5" posts for most line posts and 6/7" posts for gate hangers.  I used T posts about every 8' in between the wood posts.

For me, electric was an effective solution for the initial phase of goat ownership.  I'm glad I didn't put up the wire initially, because I have learned a loat about how I wanted the pens laid out.  Electric made it much much easier to rearrange.


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## NachoFarm

We were considering using Equirope by Dare, five strands...4 or 5" cedars as line posts.


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## sawfish99

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> We were considering using Equirope by Dare, five strands...4 or 5" cedars as line posts.


If you are going to use electric, use solid wire. The rope and webbing don't carry enough current for a good jolt. The goats would rub the webbing we had but not touch the wire next to it same charger with same ground.


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## NachoFarm

Ok, but if we're planning for future horse should we run one line of equirope along the top for visability?  Then we could run 4 strands of electric wire underneath?  What gauge do you suggest?


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## sawfish99

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Ok, but if we're planning for future horse should we run one line of equirope along the top for visability?  Then we could run 4 strands of electric wire underneath?  What gauge do you suggest?


If you are fencing for horses too, you probably want more height, so a top line of rope would be fine.  However, I would never put horses in the field fenced area. A 4" opening is perfect for a hoof to get caught in. 

Use the 14ga wire.


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## manybirds

i use 4 strands of electric fence (high voltage) for my goats and sheep


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## NachoFarm

Ok, so let's say we were going to go with a 5 strand 14 gauge smooth wire fence (eventually tied off with flags in the future for horse visability?)...how far apart would you be spacing posts? 

I tried looking it up myself but it seems there so many different ideas about it...30-90 feet?!  That's such a wide range.  And my eyes are crossing at all the different kinds (line posts, t-posts, corner posts etc.)   Mercy.

Our land is really flat so how far apart am I putting cedar posts and how many t-posts(?) am I putting in between?  

I'm beginning to wonder how much cheaper it will be with all the insulators and other "stuff" you need to put one of these in.  Anyone care to take the time to give me a product list?


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## 20kidsonhill

Make sure you do a really good job with your brace posts(corners and gate areas)  and maybe in between if it is long enough. 

Ours are for sure closer to the 30 foot apart than the 90, but we don't have real flat land. 

We found using these at the ends of each strand, really helped keep the fence tight and allows for easier maintenance and future tightening of the fence. 

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/combination-strainer-termination-kit/camid/LIV/cp/XI-CA/


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## redtailgal

If you go that far between posts, you'll need to really get those corners good, and keep your fence line straight, or you will have sagging fence that constantly shorts out.

Our posts are between 10 and 15 feet apart, and our wire stays TIGHT.


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## sawfish99

On the horses, if you walk them around the perimeter of the fence when turning out the first time, they will figure out the electric boundaries and stay inside.  I don't flag any electric for the horses and they never seem to have a problem understanding the limits.

Here is what I would do:
Set wood posts for corners/gates
put up 5.5' T posts (set 18" into the ground leave about 48" above ground) wherever there is a slight bend in the fence line or about 24' apart
run 4 strands (starting at the bottom) of 14ga electric, making it as tight as you can
use the fiberglass, temporary step in posts as the support spacers for the 4 strands of electric.  These are about 34" high (I think) and should be used earlier in the process to set the height for the wood and T post fence supports
Put the round or box style T post caps on so you don't have a spear hazard for the horses.  Now, run the 5th line of electric at at the 48" height, using the support on the T post cap.  This line of electric can be the rope so it is more visible.  Since it will only be supported every 24', you will want a spring style tensioner on the line.

The benefit of the design is the fiberglass step in posts about about 1/3 of the cost of each T post and don't require additional insulators.

If I wasn't doing the 5th top line, then I wouldn't put T posts but every 80' and support with fiberglass step in completely between.  I would also use on;y 5' T posts because I would run the top line of 14ga wire in the T post cap.


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## NachoFarm

> Our posts are between 10 and 15 feet apart, and our wire stays TIGHT.


But I thought the wire wasn't supposed to be "tight"...otherwise it breaks...is there some sort of sweet spot you want to hit between too tight where it breaks and too loose?


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## sawfish99

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Our posts are between 10 and 15 feet apart, and our wire stays TIGHT.
> 
> 
> 
> But I thought the wire wasn't supposed to be "tight"...otherwise it breaks...is there some sort of sweet spot you want to hit between too tight where it breaks and too loose?
Click to expand...

If you only stretch the wire by hand, you will not be able to get it too tight. You might be able break it if using a come along to stretch it.


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## redtailgal

We use a come along, and there is a fine line between tight and too tight.  

We want it pretty tight to keep it from tangling when the deer run thru it and break insulators, but the joke is that if you can stum it like a guitar its time to back it off a twist or two, lol.


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## NachoFarm

What do you use for insulators at your corners and ends?  Is this what they call a termination kit?  How do I figure out how many I need?  They seem to be really expensive.  I need them at every corner and every end?  Oh, and how do I set up a gate with electric?  That's all the questions...I promise...for now.


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## redtailgal

For corners we have these used.......

http://southernstates.com/catalog/p-1863-dare-10pack-high-strain-corner-end-assembly.aspx

http://southernstates.com/catalog/p-1772-dare-10pack-egg-style-cornerend-insulator.aspx

http://southernstates.com/catalog/p-1812-dare-10pack-tubular-corner-post-insulator.aspx

But for cost effectiveness, we use mainly these:

http://southernstates.com/catalog/p-8591-dare-heavy-duty-porcelain-end-post-insulator.aspx


For the gate, we just run the wire thru pvc, or cut it, attach a length of insulated and covered wire, bury the insulated wire across the gate path, and reattach at the other end.


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## NachoFarm

So are all four of the products you showed me basically just different versions of a product meant to do the same thing?


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## redtailgal

Pretty much.

We like the last one, it seems to be more durable.

A cheaper method is to take a (cheap) rubber garden hose, put some wire thru it, put it around the corner post, twist the ends of the wire together leaving a loop to put your fence wire thru.  I'll see if we still have a garden hose corner somewhere and get you a pic.  (We wedge the hose between two screws to hold it in place)


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## secuono

We have field fencing for our two horses. If the fence is tight and not sagging, it's less likely a horse will get stuck. If you have a horse that paws a fence, you need to teach it to stop! And if you introduce new horses or ones that like to fight or rear, they may do it near the fence and come down into the fence=bad. Calm horses that don't paw should be fine.
We only have one side that the horses have interest in crossing, so I keep that side tight, high and make sure the pony doesn't paw it. Rest has weeds and trees, so it's no fun for them to even want to cross that. 




How do you guys drive three 6ft grounding rods into the earth?? What about on rocky ground? That's the biggest issue with electric fencing, ain't it?

Horses/ponies need one line at their knee and another at their chest. If you have a mix, how would they correctly space the wires?


I've also read the wire needs to stretch, so it will give and not break. Enough for them to make it over if they are dead set on it and enough that it doesn't break the spacers. Though, out in hundreds of acres, that's easier to do than a smaller amount of land with closer posts.


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## redtailgal

We have a digger attachment for the tractor for corner posts, and long rods that cant be drivien with a stake driver.

For t posts, we use a stake driver (homemade) and for shorter rods, we will use the stake driver.


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## 20kidsonhill

We like this one,  http://southernstates.com/catalog/p-1812-dare-10pack-tubular-corner-post-insulator.aspx

But have used this. http://southernstates.com/catalog/p-1772-dare-10pack-egg-style-cornerend-insulator.aspx

and we use the Plastic or fiber-glass step in posts in between all our corner/brace posts(cedar posts), but we don't have horses, just need to keep the goats in.


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## NachoFarm

That's great guys, thank you.  Now I just have to find them up here in Canada eh?   
They're certainly a lot cheaper than almost $20 for two.


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## heathen

I had a woven wire fence with electric around the top... I had the neighbors dogs come in dig under the fence kill all my goats last May..... I bought the bigest electric fence I could find20,000 KV and got a GP. Even goats I have bought that never have been around an electric fence got shocked one time and never tested it again. We have Bears Bobcats Dogs and coyotes I know for a fact the dogs that killed my goats have came back twice they touched the fence and I have never seen them back up here. I have seen a bear touch it and run off like he was shot. Now my LGD is big enough and barks enough to intimidate predators.My billies are seperated with the electric fence from the nanies and they dont get out even when the nany is in heat.  I have 8 strands with electric on the bottom and top every other wire is a ground wire to make the fence hotter and give a better shock electricity finds the shortest path to ground. Your ground wire is your most important part of an electric fence and can be the diffrence in animals staying in or getting out. If you use a ground rod make sure it is installed correctly. Woven wire is without a doubt better if you can afford both then you shouldnt have an issue. I eventually plan on getting goat/sheep wire and haveing three stands of electric off of it just for peace of mind. I sstill worry a hungry coyote would run through the wire I have seen them do this at my grandpa's house for his sheep he didnt have a dog helping protect them. Good luck


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## wirefence

heathen said:
			
		

> I had a woven wire fence with electric around the top... I had the neighbors dogs come in dig under the fence kill all my goats last May..... I bought the bigest electric fence I could find20,000 KV and got a GP. Even goats I have bought that never have been around an electric fence got shocked one time and never tested it again. We have Bears Bobcats Dogs and coyotes I know for a fact the dogs that killed my goats have came back twice they touched the fence and I have never seen them back up here. I have seen a bear touch it and run off like he was shot. Now my LGD is big enough and barks enough to intimidate predators.My billies are seperated with the electric fence from the nanies and they dont get out even when the nany is in heat.  I have 8 strands with electric on the bottom and top every other wire is a ground wire to make the fence hotter and give a better shock electricity finds the shortest path to ground. Your ground wire is your most important part of an electric fence and can be the diffrence in animals staying in or getting out. If you use a ground rod make sure it is installed correctly. Woven wire is without a doubt better if you can afford both then you shouldnt have an issue. I eventually plan on getting goat/sheep wire and haveing three stands of electric off of it just for peace of mind. I sstill worry a hungry coyote would run through the wire I have seen them do this at my grandpa's house for his sheep he didnt have a dog helping protect them. Good luck


Nice to get this information.


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## goathill

We're in the process of implementing a paddock system that's based on electric fencing.  The first paddock is complete, with 5 strands on a 1-joule charger.  It's about 120'x20' - the idea is to rotate the goats amongst 4-5 paddocks of roughly the same size on a 10-day basis.  The first day was a little rough as the goats tested the fence, but now, our does won't go near it.  Their kids check it out, but don't leave it.  Before implementing the system, we did a lot of reading, and found Fias Co's info to be really helpful.  I think our success so far is largely due to keeping them happy inside the paddock.  Food first thing in the morning (during milking), and then free choice minerals and water all day.  Plenty of shade as well, and a solid plan to keep them moving before they're out of good browse to eat.  

Oddly enough, I think one of the things that actually helped us was the constant attempts by the dogs to test the fence.  Enough yelping and running off seemed to help our goats understand that the polywire was something to be avoided.  Now, neither the goats nor the dogs test the lines at all.


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## BlondeSquirrel04

I have electric fencing for all my animals...goats, llamas and alpacas. Once they learn, they learn forever. As long as you get a strong charger and bite them on it once or twice so they understand it, they're set.


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## kfacres

goathill said:
			
		

> We're in the process of implementing a paddock system that's based on electric fencing.  The first paddock is complete, with 5 strands on a 1-joule charger.  It's about 120'x20' - the idea is to rotate the goats amongst 4-5 paddocks of roughly the same size on a 10-day basis.  The first day was a little rough as the goats tested the fence, but now, our does won't go near it.  Their kids check it out, but don't leave it.  Before implementing the system, we did a lot of reading, and found Fias Co's info to be really helpful.  I think our success so far is largely due to keeping them happy inside the paddock.  Food first thing in the morning (during milking), and then free choice minerals and water all day.  Plenty of shade as well, and a solid plan to keep them moving before they're out of good browse to eat.
> 
> Oddly enough, I think one of the things that actually helped us was the constant attempts by the dogs to test the fence.  Enough yelping and running off seemed to help our goats understand that the polywire was something to be avoided.  Now, neither the goats nor the dogs test the lines at all.


explain your 10 day basis..

You should not graze a paddock for more than 5 days-- so you're going to be defeating the purpose of rotational grazing if you do them for 10.  A paddock needs rested for atleast 30 days-- so if you're only resting for 10--  you're again wasting your time being rotational...


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## goathill

kfacres said:
			
		

> You should not graze a paddock for more than 5 days-- so you're going to be defeating the purpose of rotational grazing if you do them for 10.  A paddock needs rested for atleast 30 days-- so if you're only resting for 10--  you're again wasting your time being rotational...


Where our paddocks are constructed are brush-heavy, not grass heavy, and we're leaving them in the paddocks for 10 days at a time, and then rotating them through the entire chain of paddocks.  At the 10-day mark, the grass in the paddocks is still mostly untouched and the brush-line is about 50% browsed.  On the 5 paddock system we're hoping to employ, this leaves a 40-day rest.  30 on a 4-paddock system.  I've read a variety of lengths for leaving the animals in the paddock, depending on size, quality of browse, number of animals, etc.  Some people use very small paddocks and graze for only 24-48 hours in a particular paddock, and others stay for as long as two weeks.


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## sawfish99

kfacres said:
			
		

> You should not graze a paddock for more than 5 days-- so you're going to be defeating the purpose of rotational grazing if you do them for 10.  A paddock needs rested for atleast 30 days-- so if you're only resting for 10--  you're again wasting your time being rotational...


This kind of broad generalization is not valuable.  The amount of time for rotating the paddocks has a lot of different considerations including, climate, parasite load, browse/grass available, etc.  What works in Texas doesn't work for me in CT.  My top 2 concerns for rotating would be parasite management and browse.  In our region, the time that parasite eggs can survive dormant prior to become larvae is so long, it is nearly impossible to do rotational grazing for parasite management ON GRASS.  Therefore, the browse would be the driving factor, and the growth rate varies according the rainfall.  I would not set a X days vs Y days schedule, but instead, actively manage your property.


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## kfacres

sawfish99 said:
			
		

> kfacres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You should not graze a paddock for more than 5 days-- so you're going to be defeating the purpose of rotational grazing if you do them for 10.  A paddock needs rested for atleast 30 days-- so if you're only resting for 10--  you're again wasting your time being rotational...
> 
> 
> 
> This kind of broad generalization is not valuable.  The amount of time for rotating the paddocks has a lot of different considerations including, climate, parasite load, browse/grass available, etc.  What works in Texas doesn't work for me in CT.  My top 2 concerns for rotating would be parasite management and browse.  In our region, the time that parasite eggs can survive dormant prior to become larvae is so long, it is nearly impossible to do rotational grazing for parasite management ON GRASS.  Therefore, the browse would be the driving factor, and the growth rate varies according the rainfall.  I would not set a X days vs Y days schedule, but instead, actively manage your property.
Click to expand...

after 5 days--- the chances or regrazing occur-- this is pointless for you to argue about.  You should never allow for more days,, fewer is fine- but more is not acceptable-- regardless of where you are located- CT, IL, TX, or japan.

the only thing that can be arguable-- is amount of rest time.  Which I grant to you- changes during the season, and location and goal...  In the spring- a shorter switch is ok- and during the summer it needs to be longer..  In any case, and circumstance--I still cannot think of a reason to involve 10 days.  

Worm loads are a problem anywhere, and legit cannnot be a concern to rotate based off of, using the parasite concern as a primary rotation guide-- you would graze each pasture one time a year-- and that's not a rotational grazing system...

SO back to my question-- what does this 10 day ordeal involve?  You seemed to have not answered it.

Grazing is my specialty- through my off the farm job-- I'm very interested to see your response, and your reasoning-- to see if it's logical.


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## redtailgal

Isnt it interesting how we all have our own methods, so dramtically different from one another and still can have healthy animals?

It's nice that there is not just one right way to do things.

Each farm works differently and we all do what is best for our own farm.

Thats what I love about this group, we all have something to teach one another and we call can learn from one another!


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## bonbean01

Agreed Red!  So glad I found this place and it would have helped so much had I known about it before we started with sheep...made some avoidable mistakes, but so far have not lost any and just when we think we have learned so much, sheep have a way of letting you know there is still much more to learn...LOLOL!

As for fencing...we started out with the expensive (well...we thought it horridly expensive 4 years ago and the last rolls we bought this winter to do more fencing had more than doubled...yikes) fence just for the night secure area that also has three strands of electric on the OUTSIDE...not inside.  Sheep had no desire to leave, but there are occasional packs of wild dogs, we hear coyotes and some neighbours think it just fine to let their pit bulls out at night.  We put up their shelter in there and they are fed in there and birthing pens and bright night lights.  That's for night and all are in there every night.The ram and a friend have their area with that fencing too, but they can see and hear each other and no problems with trying to get out.

Each month this winter we purchased materials for fencing a large pasture and had to do that in increments just because of the price ... but wanted to do this just once and do it right.  By the time the grass came in this spring it was done and ready.  Last summer we took them over to a 3 strand electric fenced area to graze, and stayer nearby ...shotgun loaded and nearby...funny...only time I had to use that shotgun was not for anything after my sheep, but two pitbulls after me.  I'm not a good shot, but they hauled butt out of here pretty quickly.

As for pasture rotation, we only have three grazing areas besides the safe paddock and we check the state of the pasture and go by that.  Nothing fancy, just using common sense for what works for us.  Parasites have not been a problem and we use a garlic barrier, apple cider vinegar drench monthly for prevention and after four years of this, so far so good.

Now I know that this all changes depending on how many sheep you have.  We have one ram, four ewes and at present four lambs...so not a large flock and if a person had hundreds of them our system wouldn't work.

Have never had goats...so no help in that department.

Wishing you good luck with sheep and making your fencing plans!!!!  

Keep us posted on how you decide to go...we all learn from each other 
Bonnie


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## goathill

kfacres said:
			
		

> SO back to my question-- what does this 10 day ordeal involve?  You seemed to have not answered it.


Since this was in response to me, and not the other poster, I guess I'll do the best I can to answer in some other way.  We've had these goats on this property for a year.  Based on how long it takes them to browse/graze a certain area, the types of vegetation that we have, how quickly the recovery is in areas they've been in previously, the fact that they are fed and milked before being moved to the paddocks in the morning and the fact that they have access to free-choice hay, minerals and water in their nighttime pen, and free-choice minerals and water in the daytime paddocks, we chose a 10-day paddock time.  They're in paddock 1 (currently) for 10 days (or maybe a day or two less, depending on what we see in each individual paddock.)  After that, they move to paddock 2 for ten days.  And so on, through the five paddocks we've currently got posted (but not yet lined with polytape.)  By the time they're back to paddock 1, the paddock will have rested for 40 days.  We have free-range chickens on our property, as well as turkeys and guineas.  All of the fowl  generally follow the goats, though this isn't really something we have as part of the plan, it's just what happens.  We have no parasite issues in our small herd.  

Not totally sure why you seem to think this is an "ordeal."  It's based on what we've seen on our individual property, how our individual goats behave, conversations with other goat owners in the area, and online research, some of which even deals with the specific breed of goats we have.  I hope this is sufficient for your professional curiosity.


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## kfacres

goathill said:
			
		

> kfacres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SO back to my question-- what does this 10 day ordeal involve?  You seemed to have not answered it.
> 
> 
> 
> Since this was in response to me, and not the other poster, I guess I'll do the best I can to answer in some other way.  We've had these goats on this property for a year.  Based on how long it takes them to browse/graze a certain area, the types of vegetation that we have, how quickly the recovery is in areas they've been in previously, the fact that they are fed and milked before being moved to the paddocks in the morning and the fact that they have access to free-choice hay, minerals and water in their nighttime pen, and free-choice minerals and water in the daytime paddocks, we chose a 10-day paddock time.  They're in paddock 1 (currently) for 10 days (or maybe a day or two less, depending on what we see in each individual paddock.)  After that, they move to paddock 2 for ten days.  And so on, through the five paddocks we've currently got posted (but not yet lined with polytape.)  By the time they're back to paddock 1, the paddock will have rested for 40 days.  We have free-range chickens on our property, as well as turkeys and guineas.  All of the fowl  generally follow the goats, though this isn't really something we have as part of the plan, it's just what happens.  We have no parasite issues in our small herd.
> 
> Not totally sure why you seem to think this is an "ordeal."  It's based on what we've seen on our individual property, how our individual goats behave, conversations with other goat owners in the area, and online research, some of which even deals with the specific breed of goats we have.  I hope this is sufficient for your professional curiosity.
Click to expand...

your system is far better than most people's that I deal with on a day to day basis.  

I don't know how much time you have to spend moving the goats, but it sounds like you have plenty of it to spare.  I also do not know how many goats you have, or the current size of your paddocks.

BUT- I might suggest splitting each of your current paddocks with a hot wire so each semi=paddock gets grazed for 5 days instead of 10.  It's proven that after 5 days, the forage begins to regrow- thus enabling second time grazing (defeating the purpose of rotational grazing).  

Basically, do what you are doing- but tweek it some.


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## goathill

kfacres said:
			
		

> your system is far better than most people's that I deal with on a day to day basis.
> 
> I don't know how much time you have to spend moving the goats, but it sounds like you have plenty of it to spare.  I also do not know how many goats you have, or the current size of your paddocks.
> 
> BUT- I might suggest splitting each of your current paddocks with a hot wire so each semi=paddock gets grazed for 5 days instead of 10.  It's proven that after 5 days, the forage begins to regrow- thus enabling second time grazing (defeating the purpose of rotational grazing).
> 
> Basically, do what you are doing- but tweek it some.


We may do that...  but just for fuller info, we have a very small herd - just 2 does and 2 kids in the paddock system.  We also have a buck, but he's kept separately on a different part of the property.  We actually don't spend that much time moving them because they basically know what to do.  They go in at night, they go to the paddock in the day.  

To add to the original discussion about fences, one of the things that I does seem to affect the effectiveness of the fence is the size of the herd.  For example, we know another guy that keeps both meat and dairy goats.  The dairy herd is very small, just a couple girls.  They do great behind electric.  His wife keeps a small herd of sheep for fiber, same thing with the electric.  The meat goats, however, of which there are many, many more, must be kept behind wire fencing.  They absolutely bust apart the electric.  I'm sure some of this is temperament related, but there's probably some kind of limit to the number of bodies that can be contained by electric.


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## kfacres

goathill said:
			
		

> kfacres said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> your system is far better than most people's that I deal with on a day to day basis.
> 
> I don't know how much time you have to spend moving the goats, but it sounds like you have plenty of it to spare.  I also do not know how many goats you have, or the current size of your paddocks.
> 
> BUT- I might suggest splitting each of your current paddocks with a hot wire so each semi=paddock gets grazed for 5 days instead of 10.  It's proven that after 5 days, the forage begins to regrow- thus enabling second time grazing (defeating the purpose of rotational grazing).
> 
> Basically, do what you are doing- but tweek it some.
> 
> 
> 
> We may do that...  but just for fuller info, we have a very small herd - just 2 does and 2 kids in the paddock system.  We also have a buck, but he's kept separately on a different part of the property.  We actually don't spend that much time moving them because they basically know what to do.  They go in at night, they go to the paddock in the day.
> 
> To add to the original discussion about fences, one of the things that I does seem to affect the effectiveness of the fence is the size of the herd.  For example, we know another guy that keeps both meat and dairy goats.  The dairy herd is very small, just a couple girls.  They do great behind electric.  His wife keeps a small herd of sheep for fiber, same thing with the electric.  The meat goats, however, of which there are many, many more, must be kept behind wire fencing.  They absolutely bust apart the electric.  I'm sure some of this is temperament related, but there's probably some kind of limit to the number of bodies that can be contained by electric.
Click to expand...

how big is each paddock?  how many acres total do you have for grazing?


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## sawfish99

kfacres said:
			
		

> after 5 days--- the chances or regrazing occur-- this is pointless for you to argue about.  You should never allow for more days,, fewer is fine- but more is not acceptable-- regardless of where you are located- CT, IL, TX, or japan.
> 
> the only thing that can be arguable-- is amount of rest time.  Which I grant to you- changes during the season, and location and goal...  In the spring- a shorter switch is ok- and during the summer it needs to be longer..  In any case, and circumstance--I still cannot think of a reason to involve 10 days.


I am very interested to understand why regrazing is not acceptable and should never be allowed?  I haven't seen you explain the basis for that arguement.


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## aggieterpkatie

Most grasses store their energy reserves in the roots and crown (bottom 3" of plant). When grass is grazed, the plant sends the energy up to the plant for new growth.  When the plant is grazed again, shorter than the 3" mark, the energy reserves are zapped and it stresses the plant.  If the plant is overgrazed enough times, it will die.  Dead grass means more opportunities for weeds to grow.  In this case, re-grazing means allowing the animals access to grass that they've already grazed down.  

Proper pasture rotation allows for the grass in each paddock to be grazed evenly, and never below the 3" mark (and higher for reed canary and some warm season grasses).  When the animals are moved off the pasture, it allows for the grasses to re-grow and for the plant to put it's energy into new growth. Typically the 30 day mark is sufficient for this. Sometimes in early spring, 30 days is too much.  Sometimes in droughty conditions, 30 days isn't enough.  It depends on the species of grass, but optimum grazing (let's say for a basic cool-season grass pasture) is when the animals are put in at a grass height of 10", and animals removed when that height gets down to 3".  It's very hard to come up with a set number of days per paddock, because this will be constantly changing.


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## kfacres

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Most grasses store their energy reserves in the roots and crown (bottom 3" of plant). When grass is grazed, the plant sends the energy up to the plant for new growth.  When the plant is grazed again, shorter than the 3" mark, the energy reserves are zapped and it stresses the plant.  If the plant is overgrazed enough times, it will die.  Dead grass means more opportunities for weeds to grow.  In this case, re-grazing means allowing the animals access to grass that they've already grazed down.
> 
> Proper pasture rotation allows for the grass in each paddock to be grazed evenly, and never below the 3" mark (and higher for reed canary and some warm season grasses).  When the animals are moved off the pasture, it allows for the grasses to re-grow and for the plant to put it's energy into new growth. Typically the 30 day mark is sufficient for this. Sometimes in early spring, 30 days is too much.  Sometimes in droughty conditions, 30 days isn't enough.  It depends on the species of grass, but optimum grazing (let's say for a basic cool-season grass pasture) is when the animals are put in at a grass height of 10", and animals removed when that height gets down to 3".  It's very hard to come up with a set number of days per paddock, because this will be constantly changing.


I couldn't have said it better myself.

i would like to add- that the height of which you quit grazing for the winter-- will also directly effect the quickness of the forage to regrow in the spring time.  

I'm a huge advocate of warm season grasses in the warmer areas.  I believe this is the only key to year round grazing, however, most do not grazed down below 10 inches, especially for winter rest.  

I would also like to add- that constant grazing (as spoken about above), normally happens in pastures where livestock continually hit the legume plants (most desirable in a pasture), and more times than not-- they will die off-- leaving most often brome and fescue to populate in a monoculture.


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## bonbean01

Okay...so am I understanding this correctly?  In the fall do not let the pastures go lower than 10 inches before taking them off and going with all hay?  Gosh, our pastures never even hit 10 inches before going to seed, so we keep what they can't eat down cut to prevent it going to seed too early.

kfacres, went to your website and your sheep are beautiful and huge!!!


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## kfacres

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> Okay...so am I understanding this correctly?  In the fall do not let the pastures go lower than 10 inches before taking them off and going with all hay?  Gosh, our pastures never even hit 10 inches before going to seed, so we keep what they can't eat down cut to prevent it going to seed too early.
> 
> kfacres, went to your website and your sheep are beautiful and huge!!!


not exactly.. in an ideal world-- yes that is the height to graze down to for WARM season grasses (bluestems, indian grass, switch grass, etc) these are 5-6' tall grasses once mature.

Cool season grasses (fescue, brome, orchard, etc) should not be grazed to under 3".

Now, with this said- the higher up you can leave your fall growth-- the quicker your spring growth will start.  

Pastures high in fescue- can be 'stockpiled' for grazing in Jan/ Feb-- with proven nutritional equal aspects of growing green in May.  



Thanks on the comment about our sheep= both traits you notice generate the most dollars for our operation.


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## Symphony

kfacres said:
			
		

> bonbean01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay...so am I understanding this correctly?  In the fall do not let the pastures go lower than 10 inches before taking them off and going with all hay?  Gosh, our pastures never even hit 10 inches before going to seed, so we keep what they can't eat down cut to prevent it going to seed too early.
> 
> kfacres, went to your website and your sheep are beautiful and huge!!!
> 
> 
> 
> not exactly.. in an ideal world-- yes that is the height to graze down to for *WARM season grasses (bluestems, indian grass, switch grass, etc) these are 5-6' tall grasses once mature.*
> Cool season grasses (fescue, brome, orchard, etc) should not be grazed to under 3".
> 
> Now, with this said- the higher up you can leave your fall growth-- the quicker your spring growth will start.
> 
> Pastures high in fescue- can be 'stockpiled' for grazing in Jan/ Feb-- with proven nutritional equal aspects of growing green in May.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks on the comment about our sheep= both traits you notice generate the most dollars for our operation.
Click to expand...

You mean Cool season grasses, don't you.


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## aggieterpkatie

No, those are warm season grasses.


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## pomchick3

We currently have 3 goats and had many more in the past. We have welded horse fence up on all sides except one neighbors where he has 4-5 strand electric. That side is always where our goats go to escape! Then they walk back around the fence to our house to be let back in. Just as they can walk past barb wire without even a scratch they can also do the same with electric fence. IMHO Its a waste! Wish it were not so!


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