# Plugged teats.. ***update.. graphic pix..



## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

I posted on her kidding thread, but I'm starting a new one for this specific issue.

My Togg doe kidded triplets last night.  Her teats seem to keep getting plugged up. It's almost like her milk is turning to cheese in her teats. I have to let her strongest kid suck enough that it hangs out enough for me to grip and slowly pull it out. 

She has very large teats. But she didn't have any problems at all last yr.

I can't milk it out, the buckling has to suck until I can grasp it...we do this until we have a good flow. Then I let all three nurse (one at a time) while Jasmine is on the milk stand. I don't know if she's nursing them otherwise. I haven't seen it.

Is there something I can do for this? What could be causing it?

I didn't plan on milking Jasmine this yr because of the size of her teats. It gets to my hands after awhile. But I need her to nurse her kids...I really can't bottle feed again this yr.

I have powdered colostrum. I have a freezer full of last yrs milk. I have 3 other does in milk. I just really want this doe to care for her own kids.

This is her 3rd freshening..dob 2-21-07


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 2, 2011)

Possibly congestion breaking up?  Does her udder feel at all hard or lumpy?  I'd probably milk her out as completely as possible.  Massaging with peppermint oil is also supposed to help relieve congestion.  I'd also be tempted to do a CMT, but I'm unsure as to how reliable the test is with colostrum since it's so thick anyhow.  Anyone know?


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## freemotion (Apr 2, 2011)

Last year I had trouble drying my Alpine doe off and having had no previous experience with this, I'd allowed only a month, which is not enough for this doe.  Since she is hard to keep in condition, I had to finally just stop.

When she freshened and I started milking her, it was like toothpaste coming out of those teats the first few times I milked her.....very thick toothpaste.  It was really hard to get her flow going.  Someone here said it was likely calcium she hadn't been able to absorb because she was dried off too quickly.  

Or something like that!

Could this be the same situation you are experiencing?  If so, it corrected itself for my doe eventually.  Pretty quickly, actually.  It was less and less of a problem with each milking and finally she milked normally after....um....not many days.  Maybe 3-5?


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

Her udder is hard and lumpy..but she's usually somewhat lumpy. I thought the hard was due to just kidding.

Something else I noticed that was strange to me..although I am only in my 2nd season...

After she kidded I cleaned up all the gook and it was different than last yr. there were a few clots? or chunks of tissue maybe? About 2-3" across.

I picked up her afterbirth this morning and it was quite chunky. I've never seen a complete placenta before, so it may have been normal. Just not what I expected.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

Free, Was she able to provide her kids with milk? or did you bottle feed?

I'm thinking it has to do with her drying off. Although she had plenty of time, she's a heavy milker with giant teats. I think this will be her last breeding


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## Roll farms (Apr 2, 2011)

I had one several years ago that had thick, almost solid stringy pieces parts stuck in her teats, I assumed it was some milk left in / hardened.  Some were no bigger than rice grains, some were 4x that size...

Once we squeezed 'em all out, it was fine...but MAN did my dh ever sqeeze hard to get some of the bigger ones dislodged.

I stood over to the side holding my chest and grimacing in sympathy for her.  OUCH.

She was also a very heavy milker.


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## freemotion (Apr 2, 2011)

RockyToggRanch said:
			
		

> Free, Was she able to provide her kids with milk? or did you bottle feed?
> 
> I'm thinking it has to do with her drying off. Although she had plenty of time, she's a heavy milker with giant teats. I think this will be her last breeding


She is CAE positive, a rescue, so I bottle fed her single doeling.  But....it didn't take too many milkings to get all the gunk out.  It was more like sandy toothpaste.  Or chalky toothpaste.  It was scary to a newbie like me, and someone here told me it would be ok and it was....so be patient and just get out there several times a day and get the gunk out.  If it is the same stuff, it will be gone sooner than you know it.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

It's like string cheese. Then it can be like paste. I just really want to know what it is so I can fix it. 

I've gone through the routine 3 times today putting her on the stand and letting her kids help me pull the gunk out. I've also tried twice (right afterwards) offering the kids a bottle of powdered colostrum. Just in case they were still hungry. They'd have no part of it. I really tried and they really denied it....which makes me think they got enough from mama..


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## whetzelmomma (Apr 2, 2011)

Sounds like you might have a doe with Mastitis to me.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

Also causing me stress..

will she get used to only letting them nurse on the stand??

Probably not...if her milk gets flowing...she'll be begging her kids to nurse. Right? 

I guess I could put the stand in her stall ...

I don't remember my children being this stressful..lol


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

whetzelmomma said:
			
		

> Sounds like you might have a doe with Mastitis to me.


can they freshen with mastitis? 

Can the milk be bad for the kids?

I've no experience with mastitis. What should be done?
Keep in mind that she has triplets to feed.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

whetzelmomma said:
			
		

> Sounds like you might have a doe with Mastitis to me.


Really? She does have long teats that must touch more than they should, but she wasn't hard or hot prior to kidding. She's not much more hard and hot now, than the other 3 mamas.   :/


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## Roll farms (Apr 2, 2011)

Mastitis tends to be stringy / chunky. 

You could do a mastitis test (CMT) and I've heard of a method where folks use dish soap to test.

Thing is, there are SO STINKING MANY strains, you could have it and test for it and get a false neg and still not know...or you could get a false positive and freak for nothing.  

Maybe do a test and see, then if it comes back positive, have your vet do a more detailed test.

A friend of mine had a doe w/ staph mastitis.  She treated for a different strain for mos. and finally went to the vet.  The doe improved, but b/c it went on so long, she's never fully recovered and freshens w/ it again every time.

My money's on unabsorbed milk from last time, though...jes sayin'.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

Where can I get this test? What does this mean for the triplets? I can't bottle feed again this yr...Is there a treatment that won't require taking them off of her?


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## Roll farms (Apr 2, 2011)

Google CMT... I believe Jeffers carries it.
Someone posted that you can buy it at TSC, but the store I work at doesn't carry it.  It probably depends on your location.

If they've been drinking it, and are ok....I see no reason to stop them.

Do the test if it'll make you feel better, and have a vet verify if you do get a positive...but I think that if her udder's not hot, it's not bloody / stringy and she's acting ok...she (and her milk) are probably ok.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 2, 2011)

She's acting like she just kidded triplets. She's not acting like she wants them to nurse... Her udder isn't hot....but it is full.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 3, 2011)

I'll check our TSC for a test and call the vet monday morning.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 3, 2011)

The kids get her milk flowing, but as soon as I try milking her...plugged again. I'm concerned that she needs to be milked out.

Maybe I'll try the Henry Milker on her. I'll have to find a larger syringe for it. Maybe the suction will help.

She's not hot, but is very tight. I would expect that after not being milked out for 2 days 

I'll also try hot packs on her.


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## Roll farms (Apr 3, 2011)

I would definitely try and milk out as much as possible to try and get all the chunks.  Udder massage w/ balm / oil and warm compresses.  
Good luck.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 3, 2011)

Can I use duramycin 72-200 to treat her? Just in case it's mastitis? Or do I need Pen G? I usually have the vet do meds, but I have Duramycin and syringes...I can do sub Q.

Would I do 2cc today and 1cc for a few days after?

Does this sound okay?


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## Roll farms (Apr 3, 2011)

If you're not even sure if she has it yet....I wouldn't.  

I'm sorry, I don't know of any way to diagnose her over the internet and until you know one way or the other, I don't* KNOW *what else to tell you...I would rub it, milk her, and test as soon as you can...Other than that...I'd leave her be / let the kids nurse UNTIL you've got a test result.

The few (4) cases I've had of REAL mastitis, I treated 3 via teat infusion and that's all I used.  They cleared up fine....The fourth I treated w/ teat infusions and antibiotics.
They had hot udders / stringy / icky milk. 
From everything I've read / my experience, the teat infusions work best / fastest...Someone else w/ more experience may chime in....but I'm telling you what I know from mine.

Teat infusions mean you won't be able to let the kids nurse....At least, I wouldn't.  You milk them out, put the infusion in, rub the medicine up into the udder, and leave it to 'work'...not conducive to a nursing doe.  

You have said you want to leave the kids on if possible.

If she's not running a fever, I personally wouldn't treat w/ systemic antibiotics.  You've said the udder's NOT hot, and the milk isn't stringy.

I still have a feeling it's just chunky stuff / congestion....

If it will make you feel better, I guess giving them shots won't do irreparable damage.  I just don't like to treat if there isn't a known problem.  I used Duramycin on the one doe.

Fiasco info / dosage:

Effective against most mastitis causing bacteria via systemic injection. 

4.5ml per 100 lbs. every 36-48 hours. Administer 3 shots (one every 36-48 hours.) 
OR 
3ml per 100 lbs. once daily (this is the dosage I use) 

More good info...it's a long read.

http://www.goatwisdom.com/udder_care.html


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 3, 2011)

Yes, I read your link. Thank you.  Her udder is hot now. But I would think being that full would cause that too.

I don't have a test. I can try the vets office tomorrow. I'll search the dish soap info.

She's off grain now. Still eating a little hay.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 3, 2011)

I gave her 2cc pen. She was less congested this evening. But she's off grain and standing alone. I was able to milk her out some, which is a start. Her kids all filled their bellies. She's not well. I'm hoping the Penicillin helps.


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## Roll farms (Apr 3, 2011)

Dosage for Pen G is closer to 1cc per 25#....I'm assuming she weighs more than 50#...?

Does she have a fever?

I'd probably give her a B shot, too.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 4, 2011)

The dosage for penicillin is actually 1 ml per 100#.
I was at a local goat dairy with all of the kids to have horns burned. I spoke to the owner there and she suggested starting penicillin at a higher first dose and then 1 mil for 4 days.

She doesn't test for it. If she sees symptoms she treats. She's been doing this far longer than I have though.

I searched for CMT tests. I finally found one kit 40 miles away and picked that up only to read that I can't use it on colostrum. I have to wait until day 4 (tomorrow). I also had my local Agway order test strips which will be in next week.

This morning she's still standing with her head down. Her kids were nursing without my help. Her udder wasn't as hard or hot. Her teats were pliable.

The kids were doing fine.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 4, 2011)

Even with a loading dose on day 1 I would up that Pen G dosage.  Mastitis is notoriously hard to treat systemically alone and 1ml/100lbs isn't a very big dose even for something that IS successfully treated systemically.  There's probably more risk of underdosing than there is of overdosing Pen G...


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 4, 2011)

Is Pen G the same as penicillin? What would you up the dose to?

I'm keeping her kids on her. I won't use the milk. (With triplets to feed there wouldn't be much extra anyway). If the time comes that I have to treat that way, I will. 

So, I'd prefer not to put anything directly into her teats/udder. Will a stronger dose of penicillin be okay for the kids?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes, Pen G is Penicillin G Procaine.  The dosage Roll gave is in line with how I use it.  If she doesn't start to improve quickly (and it is in fact mastitis) infusions may be your only option.  The systemic antibiotics will not affect the kids.


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## Roll farms (Apr 4, 2011)

There are 2 kinds of Penicillin...Pen G is the one I prefer...Long name for penicillin procaine G.

Upping the dosage won't hurt the kids.

Your comment, 'Dosage for Pen G is actually 1cc per 100#'...That's what it says on the label on the bottle labeled for horses and cows.

Goats take a higher dosage.   Check any of the 'big' goat sites w/ dosages listed, Fiasco, OCR, Goatworld, etc.
I've given up to 6cc per 100# when treating really sick animals and haven't hurt them.

Goatworld:  Dosage recommended between 3-5 cc per 100 lbs.
OCR doesn't list a dosage, just "high dosages" in the description.
Fiasco: 1 ml per 25 lbs. 

I'm still not convinced she needs it for mastitis, esp. if her udder hasn't worsened, but under dosing it is a bad idea, regardless.

Is she still not eating?  Did you give her a B vit shot?

If she's still not eating, I'd start wondering if she's got hypocalcemia or something else bothering her.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 4, 2011)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. 

I have read many many sites advice on mastitis in the last 36 hours. Of course they're all different. That's what's so great about this site. It's interactive help from experienced people.


ETA.. She's nibbling and moving around more tonight. Her kids are nursing without me putting her on the stand. They're much bouncier and doing well. 

Her udder is not hot and her teats are totally deflated, so the kids have been working on her all day.

I've massaged her udder (much to her liking). Her udder never looked soft or deflated, so I'm thinking she's okay.

Here are pix from tonight. Last night she was 4x bigger. I've watched her kids on her tonight.











I hope we're on the right track.

okay not 4x bigger but a bazillian times bigger.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 5, 2011)

She doesn't seem to be producing any milk at all. She's allowing only the smallest doeling to suckle. Her teats are deflated.

She's nibbling hay, but only ate a handful of grain this morning.

She can't have a second pregnancy again...can she? I only had her with the buck twice in a 2 week period. (The second time was accidental).

Maybe I should remove the kids. I'll try giving the them bottles


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 5, 2011)

2 of the kids took a bottle of powdered colostrum with no hesitation. They were hungry. I had to really work at the third to get her to take an ounce. 

I can do a cmt test today if I can get enough milk from her. If not, I may just call the vet out. I don't know what else to do. 

Does this happen with mastitis? switching the milk off completely?


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 5, 2011)

Thanks for all of your input and suggestions. I'll deal with this myself.


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## Roll farms (Apr 5, 2011)

I just got home from work.

I 100% agree, get the vet involved.

eta: after 4 days, the kids can't really absorb the antibodies from colostrum....They can do fine on plain whole milk from the store.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 6, 2011)

Thanks Roll, I have a freezer full of goat milk from last fall. I'll get them on that today.


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## Araylee (Apr 6, 2011)

That's just weird! It sounds like bubs did the their first colostrum, so that's great. Is her udder always that bright pink color?? I've never seen an udder that was so deflated looking but for right after nursing...then again, I'm new! I hope the vet is able to help!!


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 6, 2011)

She had been letting the smallest doeling suckle, but not the other 2 kids. Her udder never really deflates after milking, her teats would briefly...but last yr at this point there was no stopping her milk supply. I'm stumped. 

She's acting a bit better today and nibbled some grain. She's walking around more..


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 6, 2011)

I may have missed this, but did she clean? Does she have a fever?


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 6, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I may have missed this, but did she clean? Does she have a fever?


I don't know what that means...sorry. Did she clean the babies? Yes. Did she clean out afterwards? She expelled some afterbirth...lots. Was there something missing after trips? I couldn't say. 

She doesn't have a fever.

Last year she a single buckling and a week later aborted twins that were not formed. I'll post the pix of them. I'm afraid something like that is happening again. But I'm not sure.


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