# Beloved LGD has to have surgery next week...  :(



## cmjust0 (Feb 19, 2010)

Ivan, our Sarplaninac, is scheduled for an exam and very likely a cranial cruciate ligament repair on 2/24.  

We've noticed him 'toe touching' with his right rear leg from time to time in the past, but he's always gone right back to being fine very quickly..  This time, though, we're thinking he blew out his CCL completely.  

I asked the vet if this was something congenital, as we were considering breeding him on account of his innate skill and ability to do his job.  The vet said it was more likely just a simple injury, and quite a common one in _any_ giant breed dog.  Nature of the beast..

If the problem is what we're thinking it is -- and he's not even been examined yet, so who knows -- but if it is a CCL blowout, they're going to perform what's known as a "tightrope" surgery.  It's sorta like the old 'extrascapular' heavy-suture surgery, but newer and better, because instead of using monofilament (fishing line!), they're using a state-of-the-art braided something or other with titanium washers and some other fancy pants stuff..  It's a technology that's been borrowed from shoulder and ankle surgeries in humans.

The "tightrope" aparatus itself...the suture, basically...is like $300.  

Yeah, I know...$300...just for the suture.  And that type of surgery, he said, usually runs about $1,100.  So the whole deal is expected to be somewhere in the $1,500-$1,800 range, by the time they do the anesthetic, monitoring, pain meds, antibiotics, etc..  

It's a lot, but he's sooooooo worth it....poor guy.  We just want him better, ya know?   

The vet who's going to do it is an EXCELLENT surgeon.  He takes pride in his surgeries, and teaches the other docs in the clinic all the latest, greatest techniques..  Really, really good.  I'd let him cut on _me_, actually.. 

Anyway...if y'all would be so kind, wish us luck.  

If you wanna be really nice, I'm accepting donations.     (j/k...we'll get by somehow  )


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## ksalvagno (Feb 19, 2010)

Our dog, Blake, had an OCD lesion on his shoulder. They do laser surgery on that. It ran us about $1000. He was only about a year old and he couldn't be left without doing it. We felt it was worth it. He is almost 4 years old now and you would have no idea that he had it done. Well worth it.

Good luck with Ivan. I'm sure he will be just fine.


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## lupinfarm (Feb 19, 2010)

Cruciate Ligament injuries are common in ANY dog that goes leaping through ice incrusted snow  Nacho, our Mini Labradoodle stud, suffered a Cruciate Ligament injury when he was about a year old. He could barely walk the poor guy, the vet examined him and he was to stay off of the crusty snow at all times. 

Giant breed dogs are particularly suceptable to all kinds of bone, joint, and ligament injuries like OCD.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 19, 2010)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> Cruciate Ligament injuries are common in ANY dog that goes leaping through ice incrusted snow  Nacho, our Mini Labradoodle stud, suffered a Cruciate Ligament injury when he was about a year old. He could barely walk the poor guy, the vet examined him and he was to stay off of the crusty snow at all times.
> 
> Giant breed dogs are particularly suceptable to all kinds of bone, joint, and ligament injuries like OCD.


Mud's what finally got him..  Mud+meter man, actually.  He really, really hates the meter man, and he always "wins" at "running the meter man away."

That's how his breed works..  See a threat, get scared/worried/nervous, run _toward_ the threat instead of _away_ from it, bark bark bark bark growl bark bark, threat leaves, he perceives it as a "win," his behavior is positively reinforced, and his fear-aggressive behavior "worsens."  Or, in the case of an LGD, it _gets better_, since that's pretty much what he's supposed to be doing.

The fenceline was soupy muddy, and the fence is sorta on a little hillside..  So, meter man comes, Ivan takes off running toward the meter man, runs up the fenceline, slips on the muddy hillside and blows out CCL (probably without even realizing it), barks at the meter man until he goes away, then goes...Yay!  I win again....but my leg doesn't work right anymore?  What the..?!?

I didn't actually _see_ it happen, mind you, but when you have mud + meter man showing up + fear-aggressive dog holding up his leg right after meter man leaves....you can pretty much connect the dots.

Something I forgot to mention is that the vet told me that it's about a 50/50 shot that he'll blow out the other knee within 2 years or so..

So...we may end up paying anywhere between $3000-$3600 to keep this dog going.  :/

That's about what my old boat's worth, and I'd rather have the dog.

Which reminds me...anybody wanna buy a boat?


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## ksalvagno (Feb 19, 2010)

Hey, you'll spend the money some way anyway. If you don't drink or do drugs or go on shopping sprees, may as well spend it on the dog that protects your livestock.


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## Roll farms (Feb 19, 2010)

I've put my vet's kids through college...

We had a wolf hybrid (rescue, not 'on purpose') years ago that got sick, by the time he was put down his bill was 3 grand.  It was cancer that had spread from his groin to his liver, lungs, and kidneys.

But I couldn't look at him and tell him he wasn't worth trying to save.

I lost our LGD Razor last month....would have spent all I had to save him but he didn't give me any warning, he went in his sleep.

Good vibes / thoughts headed your way.


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## lupinfarm (Feb 19, 2010)

Yep, mud will do it. All that suction pulling the joint in two directions. 

Nacho is fine, he just needed rest but he's not allowed anywhere near crusty snow lol. 

Its something you have to take into consideration with the giant breeds, they're just way more prone to having joint and ligament problems than something like a Miniature Poodle


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

T minus 24hrs.  He's getting a round of preemptive antibiotics this afternoon, and will get a meal at about 6pm this evening.  Gotta give him a shot of .3ml Acepromazine and .2ml Xylazine (Rompun) in the morning before we take him in, just so he maybe won't freak in the car and at vet's office, and so _maybe_ they can actually do the pre-op exam without him trying to snap anybody's head off.  He'll be sporting a muzzle, for sure.

I've estimated that he's probably somewhere in the 150lb ballpark...it'll be interesting to see his actual weight on an actual scale.  He's never been weighed before.



I'm nervous..


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## savingdogs (Feb 23, 2010)

Sounds like you are doing the right thing by the dog. 

I work at a vet and also have had a dog that needed and had this surgery. They did not fix it the same way, she had TPLO if you are familiar with that, but essentially taking a large dog through that kind of surgery is an emotional, physical and time commitment as well as a financial one. It shows you love the dog.

From my standpoint, those prices sound cheap. However with ours, we found a few things they did not list such as follow up x-rays and exam in a few months, then in a year, and then about a year and a half later she blew the other side. Unfortunately she died of cancer a few years later and we would have done ANYTHING if we could have just needed a third surgery instead of dying at age 8. Even so, we would do it again, in a heartbeat. 

While this is probably not the case with your dog or your vet would have mentioned it, genetics can play a part in this problem. Our dog's real legs were both turned inward, or toed in, (vargus deformity) and this put added strain on her ligaments. We would never have bred her anyway as a) she had other physical deformities and b) we are humane society dog rescuers and do not breed dogs.

The second injury did happen in the snow. We also note our golden retriever with hip dysplasia does poorly in the snow or sand.   

I've also seen mild cases where surgery was not done and the dogs recovered to a degree. However that is usually with smaller dogs. Bigger dogs usually always have needed the surgery in the cases I've seen. 
Hope that helps. Good luck with the recovery! Make sure to ask for a soft e-collar, that really helps when you have to take the dog in and out of the house for potty breaks during recovery.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

savingdogs said:
			
		

> Sounds like you are doing the right thing by the dog.
> 
> I work at a vet and also have had a dog that needed and had this surgery. They did not fix it the same way, she had TPLO if you are familiar with that, but essentially taking a large dog through that kind of surgery is an emotional, physical and time commitment as well as a financial one. It shows you love the dog.
> 
> From my standpoint, those prices sound cheap.


My understanding is that there are three kinds of surgery for these injuries today:  TPLO, extrascapular 'heavy suture', and 'tightrope.'

In the old heavy suture version, they basically just used high-test fishing line to remove the need for the dog to have a CCL.  Problem was, heavy dogs that use their knees hard tended to break the fishing line and bam...you're right back to where you were before.

TPLO, on the other hand, is super expensive, and not many vets can/will do it.  My own vet -- a really good surgeon -- doesn't do them, as it requires cutting the end off a bone, rotating the end of the bone a certain number of degrees, installing a plate, and all kinds of other stuff.  He said the closest places to get that done around here would either be Louisville or Cincy.  He also told me that the cost would be well upward of $3,000...probably closer to $4,000.  He also said that in the rare event of a TPLO failure, they fail BADLY.  Screws can back out, the plate can break...and if the bone's not fully healed from being cut in two when the failure occurs, the bone can shear off again. 

The 'tightrope' surgery is basically an updated version of the heavy suture.  Instead of using monofilament, they use a suture that was developed for human arthroscopic surgeries.  I'm not sure what it's made of, but my vet basically said "It won't break."  What he told me was that, pretty much in order for a tightrope to just _fail_, the dog would have to do something so extreme that it would pull a titanium washer _through_ the bone...and that ain't gonna happen.  And if it does, he's got bigger problems than a failed tightrope..  

My vet's actually more concerned with soft tissue healing and making sure the good knee is rested in the recovery period, so as not to stress it to the point of failure..  He's got that much confidence in the tightrope itself, which gives me confidence.  

He said he's done about 25 of them so far, some on dogs up to about 180lbs, and the results have been really good.  I really do feel it's the best option for us, and as you can probably see...I at least did some homework.  

And the really good news is, it's basically the same surgical cost as the old heavy suture, but with the addition of the tightrope apparatus itself which adds a few hundred dollars.  

If there's such a thing as an $1,800 surgery for a dog which could be considered "cheap," this is definitely the one.



> However with ours, we found a few things they did not list such as follow up x-rays and exam in a few months, then in a year, and then about a year and a half later she blew the other side.


We've been told that there's about a 50/50 shot he'll blow the other CCL within two years.  :/



> Unfortunately she died of cancer a few years later and we would have done ANYTHING if we could have just needed a third surgery instead of dying at age 8. Even so, we would do it again, in a heartbeat.


I really hate to hear that..  

At two years of age, we figure we've got maybe another 6-8 years with Ivan...if we're lucky.  He gets hugs and pettins' everytime we're in the barnyard.  We understand that it's just the nature of the beast, and we're making the most of what time we have with him.



> While this is probably not the case with your dog or your vet would have mentioned it, genetics can play a part in this problem. Our dog's real legs were both turned inward, or toed in, (vargus deformity) and this put added strain on her ligaments. We would never have bred her anyway as a) she had other physical deformities and b) we are humane society dog rescuers and do not breed dogs.


So far, our vet has indicated that it's more likely an injury -- and a very common one to any gigantic dog -- than a problem specific to his body.  We'll probably know more after the exam/surgery, though.  

As for breeding...I just learned back during the summer that the folks who bred Ivan lost their last male to bloat not long before that.  They're no longer breeding.  I'm not sure how many male littermates Ivan had over the years, nor where they are today.  

What I'm getting at is that Ivan's bloodline may be running out, at least in this area...which sucks, because he's a tremendous dog..  Unless the vets tell us that his bone structure is really problematic, we intend on at least crossing him to another LGD breed...if only to reserve _some_ of his working genetics for ourselves.

I'm not a big fan of breeding dogs, mind you...we have 6, and they were all 'misfits' in some manner -- including Ivan.  Two shelter dogs, one roadside pickup, one that just showed up on the porch, one with a congenital defect called megaesophagus, and Ivan..  We got Ivan free due to some extenuating circumstances at his breeders' farm...he needed a little extra effort and some very patient, understanding adoptive parents.

What we ended up with was a true diamond in the rough.  He's just awesome at what he does, and his temperament -- as far as I'm concerned, and for our purpose -- is absolutely perfect.  

I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes you find a dog that's so magnificent and possesses such valuable qualities that you almost feel obligated to pass the torch...

Ivan's one of those dogs.


I know, I know...   



> The second injury did happen in the snow. We also note our golden retriever with hip dysplasia does poorly in the snow or sand.
> 
> I've also seen mild cases where surgery was not done and the dogs recovered to a degree. However that is usually with smaller dogs. Bigger dogs usually always have needed the surgery in the cases I've seen.
> Hope that helps. Good luck with the recovery! Make sure to ask for a soft e-collar, that really helps when you have to take the dog in and out of the house for potty breaks during recovery.


I hadn't even thought of an e-collar..  I mean, I _did_, and then I immediately put it out of my head because I already have too much to think about without picturing him wearing a satellite dish around his neck.

 

Thanks for sharing your stories, btw...all of you.  It helps to know other people have been down this difficult road already.


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## Buster (Feb 23, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> T minus 24hrs.  He's getting a round of preemptive antibiotics this afternoon, and will get a meal at about 6pm this evening.  Gotta give him a shot of .3ml Acepromazine and .2ml Xylazine (Rompun) in the morning before we take him in, just so he maybe won't freak in the car and at vet's office, and so _maybe_ they can actually do the pre-op exam without him trying to snap anybody's head off.  He'll be sporting a muzzle, for sure.
> 
> I've estimated that he's probably somewhere in the 150lb ballpark...it'll be interesting to see his actual weight on an actual scale.  He's never been weighed before.
> 
> ...


Good luck to you and your dog, CMJ.

And sorry about my final comment on that other site. I don't know if you saw it, but I went back to edit it out but the thread was already deleted. It was a stupid thing for me to say.

Keep us posted. I hope he will be fine and back at his job in no time.

I'm new to LGDs but I am already aware of just how special they can be.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

Buster said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks, Buster.  

I didn't see any comment, btw..  I saw the thread had been deleted, though.  

I should probably stop doing that.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

Ya know what I just realized?

I'm probably just about as nervous about giving him an IM shot in the morning as anything else.  I normally IM goats where the shoulder meets the neck, and I pretty much just stick, aspirate for a second, and push.  It's almost 2nd nature now..  But, alas, I've been instructed to hit Ivan in the leg with it..

I avoid IMing goats in the leg specifically because of the sciatic nerve..  I don't like messing around with the sciatic nerve.  Dogs and goats have a sciatic nerve in pretty much the same place..  

I'm thinking of switching the 1"x20ga they provided for a 3/4"x22ga...or even a 5/8"x25ga...just because I'm a wuss.  I've pretty much also decided I'm gonna hit him in the quadriceps (in front of the hind leg) to avoid the sciatic dealy altogether.

Ugh..

Like I need _that_ to worry about, too!


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## AlisonJ_SFW2 (Feb 24, 2010)

Hope everything is going well . . .


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## Mugen (Feb 24, 2010)

CMD and Sarp are closely related. Very impressive breed. Best of luck! 

Regards,

Mugen


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## lilhill (Feb 24, 2010)

Sending good thoughts that everything goes well for your dog.  (And that your nerves survive the surgery ... I'd be pacing the floor for sure.)


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## Roll farms (Feb 24, 2010)

Update?

eta:  *thinking good thoughts*


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## cmjust0 (Feb 25, 2010)

Ivan's home and resting pretty comfortably.   

I cheated on his shot yesterday morning...swapped their 1"x20ga for a 5/8"x25ga.  Despite being nervy about it, I got that in him without too much trouble.  It worked in a hurry.  We got him loaded into the Suburban -- MAN is he heavy -- and headed for the vet's office.  Got there at about 10:10am....only about 10min late!  Not too bad, we thought!  

Once at the vet's office, he was still plenty loopy...but not loopy enough that he wouldn't have tried to jump off the stretcher.  The vet tech decided to go ahead and give him an IV anesthetic in the back of the Suburban so we could just load him onto the stretcher and get him right into the surgery room.  

Took her a few tries to find a vein since he was already sedated and his BP was low..  Once she got in, he was out.  Loaded him onto the stretcher, hauled his big hind end into the surgery room, and laid him up on the table.

At that point, I reiterated that he'd never been examined and that it was only assumed he had a ruptured CCL..  One of the young vets (not the one doing the surgery...he wasn't in the room yet) said "I'm not the best and checking for this in big dogs, but I'll give it a shot."

She worked around on his knee for like two seconds and said "Um, I'm gonna call that a YES."  We gave him kisses (even though he was out) and left to buy a big cushy dog bed, blankets, a new water bowl, and a big honkin' smoked cow femur for him to knaw on.

Maybe an hour and a half later, they called back and said they were closing up and that it went well.  We came back to the vet's office and had to see him go through that horrible post-op, post-anesthetic shake/growl/cry thing -- but only for a few seconds!

See, they already knew the deal.  They knew that if he came out completely in a strange place surrounded by strange people, TS could HTF.  So, just as he was coming up, they gave him a shot of Torbugesic....an opiate class drug...basically, morphine for dogs.

He got reeeeeally sleepy after that.  Not re-anesthetized -- sleepy.  

So....  His CCL was completely gone, he had meniscal damage, and actually had a little bit of damage to the posterior cruciate.  Plus, some arthritis..  He did say, however, that his left knee felt fine...that was a relief.

Sounds really bad, I know...a lot of damage...but the vet just sorta chalked it up to common problems in giant breeds.  I asked specifically about his bone structure and whether or not there was anything about him specifically that may have led to the injury.

Nope.  

Overall, I think the vet seemed genuinely impressed with Ivan.  He commented on the "incredible" depth of Ivan's chest, and just how big his frame was..  He said that while he'd done surgery on dogs who were probably a wee bit _heavier_ than Ivan, he said "That's the biggest knee I've ever fixed."  The heavier dogs, he said, probably shouldn't have been so heavy..  Ivan, however, is just about right in terms of body condition.

I asked specifically about breeding him and he said he didn't see any reason not to breed him if we wanted.  I always feel sort of a reflexive guilt when I talk about breeding dogs (knowing there are so many in shelters) so I kinda automatically start justifying it to whomever I'm talking to..  Can't help it..  I mentioned what an awesome guard he was, etc., and he vet asked "So he's _really_ wary of people, huh?"  I said that he was, and he said "Well...ya know, a dog like this probably _should_ be.  Great Pyrenees _used_ to be that way until so many people started making house dogs out of them..."

Not to knock the Pyr or anything, but...I dunno...it's almost like he was standing over this magnificent working specimen, thinking of all the non-working Pyrs he sees these days, thinking...."Breed this guy.  Dogs like this _should_ exist."

That's speculation, of course, but...that's the impression I got.  Maybe that's the impression I wanted, or the one I was looking for...  I dunno..  All I can tell you is that he didn't hesitate for one second before giving a thumbs up to breeding.

Anyway, Ivan snored all the way home.  

Once we got home, we prepared his little area and carried him in.  Stretcher wouldn't fit inside his area, so we had to basically use a blanket for a sling to _drag_ him on in..  He never woke up..

He slept..  And he slept...  And he slept..  Until probably 6pm or so, when he finally started to come around just a bit..  I was petting around on him just about then when I noticed that his stomach was a little distended and sounded pretty 'drummy'..  I realized right away that he'd been sucking in air, little by little, as he slept on his side.  

That's no good in a breed his size..  No good at all..

I aggravated him enough to actually get up for a second..  Once he got sternal, he almost acted like he wanted to vomit (understandable) and sorta retched a bit...then ripped this HUGE, GUSTY, FORCEFUL burp.  We were both pretty relieved after that.

He laid more or less sternal the whole time after that, but continued drifting in and out..  He seemed pretty comfy, overall.  

At about 10pm last night, I went into this little 'stall' with him and whispered "Hey Buddy."  He raised his big sweet head up and, as soon as his big sleepy eyes focused enough to see me, he wagged his tail a little..  He looked.......reassured, I guess..  Though he'd woken up and seen me a few times, this was the first time I think he actually saw me, if you know what I mean..  I think that's when he was like....."Whew..  I think I'm ok here."

His leg's pretty swollen this morning..  Incision's gotta be 10" long..  We've actually seen him move it, but he whimpers a little.  That's hard, because I've never, ever heard him whimper over anything.  Ever.  

All in all, considering everything he went through...he actually seems to be pretty OK.  



Thanks, everyone, for thinking of us.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 25, 2010)

Glad everything went well for you and it sounds like he is going to be fine. Will he get some pain meds for a couple days?


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## lilhill (Feb 25, 2010)

Glad everything went well for the big guy.  Thanks for the update.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 25, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Glad everything went well for you and it sounds like he is going to be fine. Will he get some pain meds for a couple days?


He got a shot of Ketofen before he left the vet's office, which should last probably 36 hours.  After that, the vet wants to see how he does.  Basically if he can lay down and rest without being in pain, he doesn't get pain meds.  If he can't, and is just in pain no matter what he tries to do...if the pain keeps him from being able to _rest_, in other words...he'll get a little something just to take the edge off.

Reason being, the surgical technique they used stabilizes the leg to the point that the joint would feel more or less _normal_ to the dog right off the bat.  The only thing to keep him from using it at this point is the pain in the soft tissue..  If you dull the pain of the soft tissue too much, the dog goes "Wow, I'm healed!  Let's play!"...and that's definitely not what we want.  

He's a tough dog..  Even with that much damage in his knee before the surgery, he'd still come up on his hind legs if he got excited.  After seeing him this morning, laying quietly and looking fairly content, I'm pretty sure he'll make a more complete recovery without pain meds.


BTW, the *one thing* I was actually looking forward to doing yesterday....gettting Ivan on a scale....didn't happen!  I thought they'd have to get a weight to anesthetize him, but they didn't.  So we still don't know how much he weighs.



Something else we don't know yet is the cost..  The vet was more concerned with us getting the dog home and settled in than with collecting the check (or, rather...the credit card slip  ), and said he really didn't feel like entering everything into the computer right that minute.  He was just like "We'll settle up sometime.  Just, ya know...whenever."  We shook on it, I thanked him for everything, and off we went.


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## Roll farms (Feb 25, 2010)

I love a vet like that (more interested in the animal than the bill).

Hoping for a speedy and uneventful recovery for Ivan.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 25, 2010)

I take it you don't have a livestock scale in your barn. We got one quite a few years ago for the alpacas and it has been wonderful to have. You would be suprised at what some of the alpacas weigh and I'm very glad that I can weigh them and get a correct dosage. I'm also finding that my goats are suprising me with their weights. It was  important that I had a correct weight when I dosed the Draxxin (at least according to the vet).

When Blake had his surgery, he also didn't get any pain meds. The laser surgery was supposed to make  him feel better quick and he couldn't run for a couple of weeks. We had to take him out on leash and he wasn't allowed to do a lot of stairs. Luckily our house is a ranch so steps weren't a problem but it was hard to keep him from running and it got old fast to walk him every time he went out. But following the vet's instructions was well worth it since we had no further incidences.

Here's hoping for a full and quick recovery for Ivan!


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## DonnaBelle (Feb 25, 2010)

Yes, I have been saying little prayers for that dog.  I am wishing him a speedy recovery.

I was suscribed to the topic so I wouldn't miss your report on his condition.

We have Brittanys, yes, they're bird dogs, but soooo much more.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Feb 25, 2010)

I just spoke with the vet tech a few minutes ago about "The Burp."  I've no experience whatsoever with gastric torsion in dogs, so I just called to see if I needed to bring him back to get checked out or anything..

She said big dogs like that just bloat sometimes..  I indicated that I thought it was usually related to overeating, and that he hadn't eaten anything in well over 24 hours (he's not hungry yet)...she said that with dogs that big, it didn't have to be eating related.

To me...that was weird.  To me....nothing in tummy = nothing to break down = no gas = no bloat.

So I do a little research.  Turns out, "aerophagia" is coming under increased scrutiny lately as one of the primary causes of bloat in big, deep-chested dogs..  

"Aero"=air, "phagia"=eat.  Air eating.  Yeah, I know...exactly what I had originally suspected he was doing.  And it fits perfectly with what the tech said.  What's weird is that it's not even necessarily related to anesthesia or anything like that..  He could just eat too much air one day, bloat up, and die.

Good to know.  :/

So anyway, I asked what he'd be doing now if he were in trouble.  She said that if it happened almost 24 hours ago, he'd be WAY sick by now..  Told me to primarily watch for him trying to retch and vomit, but not being able to..

He's not done that since he burped, and he only did that for about 5 seconds before he was actually able to burp.  I take it as a good thing that he didn't have to work so hard, considering there's such a thing as "uncomplicated bloat" (uncomplicated meaning, without torsion) that still requires medical intervention..

So, at this point, I'm content to call it 'anesthetic-related uncomplicated aerophagic bloat' due to being conked the hell out on anesthetics and opiate painkillers, laying on his side too long, and basically breathing through that big gaping maw for too long..  

That said, we'll just keep an eye on him for now..

Jeez, though..  Super glad I noticed it when I did.  He's so heavily coated, and he had a blanket on...and with his leg shaved, I couldn't tell if his belly just looked a little distended on account of being right next to the newly-shorn leg....and with the way he was laying at the time....I mean, the presentation was actually scarily subtle.  I could very easily have missed it, and it's not as if I was _looking_ for it in the first place.  He might not have realized it, either, as he was pretty sound asleep..

Yikes..


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## cmjust0 (Feb 26, 2010)

Ivan ate some dinner last night, and had some breakfast this morning.  Takes his pills like a good boy.  Hasn't had a single accident in his confinement area.  He actually whines when he needs to get out to pee, which isn't very often.  If he doesn't _need_ to go out, you can't even _make_ him go out.  He seems to have claimed his little cubby as his space and seems pretty content to be there, which is really good.  

It's really, really surprising that he's being so cooperative and easy going about all this, frankly.  We're talking about a dog who -- to my knowledge -- has never been indoors, and here he's pretty much acting like an old pro at it.

He's getting up and moving around in there, too..  Rearranging himself pretty regularly.  He's drinking plenty of water.

He's diggin' his big fluffy bed and array of pillows, too.  I had sorta thought he might reject those to lay on the cool vinyl floor, but nope..  Everytime we've looked in, he's laying over on the mountain of cushiness.  

When I went in to visit with him, feed him, and give him his pills this morning, he seemed _good_.  Yesterday and last night, he was just OK...clearly sore and hurty, but OK.  

This morning, though, he seemed much more like the happy boy we're used to.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 26, 2010)

Sounds like his recovery is well underway and he will be fine in not time.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 26, 2010)

Glad to hear he's doing better.  Can we have some pics?


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## AlisonJ_SFW2 (Feb 26, 2010)

Poor Ivan is going to wonder what's going on when you kick his butt back outside with the goats!


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## cmjust0 (Feb 26, 2010)

Maybe...if I can figure out where they are.  My wife had me take some of her and the big guy in his 'stall', right after surgery..  I took one of the incision, too...it's rough.

Lemme see if I can steal one off my wife's facebook.  

ETA:  Found one.


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## DonnaBelle (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow!!  What a big dog, and a little gal.  

Now for a picture of the mysterious mr. cmjusto.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Feb 26, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Wow!!  What a big dog, and a little gal.
> 
> Now for a picture of the mysterious mr. cmjusto.
> 
> DonnaBelle


She's actually 6'4".

Not really.  She's 5'2".  

If you look closely, you can see the wound on his leg.  Well, actually, I guess you don't even really have to look that closely..  I figure it's probably 10"+ in length.

Poor big buddy..


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## lilhill (Feb 26, 2010)

That's going to have to be one bodacious BIG sock to cover his bald leg when you do kick him back outside.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 26, 2010)

He's a pretty good sized dog, huh?  

it'll be a while before he's clear to go back out.  Weeks.  Maybe by then he'll have enough fuzz grown back that he won't need anything.

I hope.

Oh, hey...notice also that he's not wearing an e-collar.  The vet did the stitches in such a way that the knots are kinda tucked off to the side a bit, instead of being right up top where he can grab them.  He said if he really starts biting around at it to let him know and they'd get us an e-collar, but that he didn't expect him to need one.

That was a HUGE relief..


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 26, 2010)

Awww!!  Thanks for the picture!  What a big beautiful dog!   And his poor leg.     Hope he makes a speedy recovery!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 1, 2010)

Ivan's recovery still seems to be going well.  No infection that I can tell, and he seems to be feeling better and better.

Not that this is a good thing per se, but he's pretty much walking on it already.  The vet said he's seen dogs begin putting weight down after about a week, and some that were walking on it within a week and a half.  

He had the surgery on Wednesday.

He was toe-touching/putting a little weight on it by Thursday evening.

Pretty much walking on it by Saturday.

And then before being shouted to a halt before he could really get going, he actually tried to 'gallop' a little yesterday like a big goofball.

Chalk it up to a tremendous surgeon and a tremendous dog.

He's still doing great in his little kennel, too.  No accidents thus far.  I'd like to see him eat more, but that's just so _I_ would feel better.  He's always been really, really good about keeping himself trim, though...he's one of those rare dogs who could be trusted not to get fat with access hopper full of food, free choice, around the clock.  He eats to live...not the other way around.  Seems he's pretty much cut himself from about 8 cups a day down to maybe 3.  He paused about 85% through a bowl of just over 2 cups -- and a fresh raw egg! -- last night, then appeared to be sorta considering eating the rest, but then decided he was done.  Couldn't _make_ him eat the rest.  I really think he just doesn't want to lay in there all day and get tubby, ya know?

The saddest thing happened last night though...gotta tell you guys..

I was out with him in the yard, standing maybe 10' from the door.  He was sitting beside me, relaxed, and enjoying the cool night air.  All of a sudden, a howl from the deep..  Followed by more howls and yips and barks..  Coyotes..  He stood and advanced a few feet, looking around..  Ears up, expression changed from relaxed to pensive..  I stayed beside him..  He listened for a few seconds, and it was as if it suddenly hit him that he was hurt..  He dropped his ears, lowered his head a bit and sorta looked up at me like..."I'm not ready, boss."  I pet his head and told him it was ok..  He turned and walked back to the door, looking straight in..  He looked up at me again like "Will you watch out for me?"

I reassured him again, opened the door, and he went straight back into his little 'man cave' to rest.

I felt so, so bad for him.   

He's a smart boy, though..  As courageous as he is, he knows he's injured badly and that this is one of those times when it's best that he goes away...and lives to fight another day.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 1, 2010)

CM, thanks for the update on Ivan. I was hoping you'd post this am.

You are very fortunate to have such a wonderful creature.  I would love to pet him, alas you are too far away.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 1, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> CM, thanks for the update on Ivan. I was hoping you'd post this am.
> 
> You are very fortunate to have such a wonderful creature.  I would love to pet him, alas you are too far away.
> 
> DonnaBelle


Thanks.  The name "Ivan" means "blessed gift."  That's exactly how we feel about him.  

Oh, and FWIW, if you came all that way to pet him...he'd just try to kill you anyway.

   


But seriously...


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## cmjust0 (Mar 2, 2010)

So, Ivan went out to pee last night...  Most times since he's had his surgery, he just kinda stretches out and let's it fly.

Last night, he actually hiked his leg.

Not his repaired leg...his good leg...which left him standing there on his repaired leg.  Probably stood that way for 10 seconds or longer, whizzing like crazy.

Apparently, the leg's feeling pretty stable.  

My wife looked at me and just shook her head, laughing..  Then she said, "Ya know, I don't think he could do that before the surgery, while his knee was still hurt."

I think she's right..


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## AlisonJ_SFW2 (Mar 2, 2010)

Go Ivan!!!  No pun intended.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 2, 2010)

Isn't it great when your animals are healing very well and doing well with everything?

Here's to continued recovery.


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## BorderKelpie (Mar 3, 2010)

What an awesome dog. Could you give him a hug for me. I would so love to just bury my face in his fur, but, I would like to live. lol
I wouldn't mind one of him as a couch potato, though. He's gorgeous!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

Ivan says thanks.  

He's starting to 'get his bark on' again..  Like, if the other dogs start making a bunch of racket in the house, you'll hear this big, booming 'BOOOOOOOOOOOOOWOOWOOWOOWOO" come from his little holding cell kennel stall space area place.



He's still barely eating, though..  Yesterday...maybe 2 cups of kibble.  He'll eat sliced turkey...he'll even pick little pieces of sliced turkey out of his kibble if you try to lure him into eating his kibble by throwing in little pieces of sliced turkey.

He just won't really eat the kibble.  Not much, anyway.

It's a little frustrating...kinda worrisome...but my wife and I are both aware that he's prone to ration himself according to his own body condition and level of activity..  We know that.  We've seen that from him before, even when he wasn't injured.

Still...it hurts the heart a little to set a bowl of food down and watch a hurt dog ignore it.  

He'll eat when he's hungry...He'll eat when he's hungry...He'll eat when he's hungry...He'll eat when he's hungry...He'll eat when he's hungry...

Just gotta keep telling ourselves that...  :/


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

BorderKelpie said:
			
		

> I wouldn't mind one of him as a couch potato, though. He's gorgeous!


My wife and I have noted before that Ivan would actually have made an EXCELLENT home guardian, as he's not the type of dog that 'bonds' to livestock or who has to think he's a member of the herd to do his job.  

I'm 99.9% certain that if you got one as a pup, raised it in your home, and didn't work really hard to socialize it to strangers, what you'd end up with is a big sweet furball shadowing your every move and being the bestest big fluffy wuffy puppy ever....until someone tried to disturb the peace.

I truly, truly pity the fool who sneaks through the window of a house where one of these dogs live.  

 

We've actually already discussed the possibility that, should we still have any of Ivan's bloodline around when our housedogs are all gone....we may indeed import one from the barnyard to the living room.


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## Roll farms (Mar 3, 2010)

Take it from someone w/ a Newfie in the house....Big dogs, and I mean HUGE big dogs, not labs or sheperds, etc.....ain't such a good idea....especially when they're HAIRY big dogs.

I am not a bit afraid of hair or mud or fur or anything, as far as being grossed out...but it's a constant battle to keep lint filters, air cleaners in furnaces, furniture, refrigerator coils, computers, etc. free of that FUR....

We brush him outside in winter, and in summer trim his coat to the skin...and still, there's fur everywhere.

(And that's forgiving the 1st couch, kitchen table legs, chair legs, boots and even eyeglasses he 'ate' as a pup....he'd break out of ANY crate and damage whatever he saw first....)

I love our "Boogerman" but he will be the last big hair machine ever in this house...


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

Speaking of table legs and whatnot, Ivan's starting to 'crib' a little bit..  I pretty much built a 2x4/plywood wall to section off part of a mudroom, and he's chomping around on it.  Boredom....we knew it was coming, so the area's built pretty well.  I don't really care if he destroys it, so long as it holds him at least another 3 weeks.  

See, four weeks 'quiet time' is the minimum...today marks one week.  If in three weeks we no longer contain him where he is now, he gets a new confinement system.

Half a decades-old steel 7x16' cattle trailer.  Like, one of the old heavy ones..

Like to see him chew through that.  


Roll...it's absolutely hilarious to me that you call your Newfie 'Boogerman'..  Ivan has an eerily similar nickname..  We'd always pet on him down in the barn and say "He's a good boy, yes he is..he's a good boy..." etc in the typical ridiculous I'm-talking-to-a-dog voice.  Well, that eventually became "He's a g'boy" which somehow morphed into "He's a goobie."  Then he somehow _became_ Goobie, so it's "C'mere, Goobie."  Then it got shortened somehow..."C'mere, Goob."..  

Somehow, some way, one of his many nicknames became -- you guessed it -- "Gooberman." 

How's that for exactly the same, yet totally opposite.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

Cephalexin/Ace&Rompum shot: $60.60
Cruciate Ligament "tightrope" surgery:  $1,150.00
Anesthetic, 1st 30mins: $60.00
Anesthetic, after 30mins: $42.00
Torbugesic: $19.54
Ketofen: $10.00
Pill Pockets: $10.24 (  )
---------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost:  $1,352.38


Not as bad as I figured, actually..


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2010)

Well, you beat me CM.

Annie's bill for OSU Vet Hospital was $856.05.

That's boarding, all shots, tests, etc. Plus enough Draxxen for a month.

So, I guess we love these animals way too much.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Well, you beat me CM.
> 
> Annie's bill for OSU Vet Hospital was $856.05.
> 
> ...




That's a record for a goat, I think.  I went somewhere around $300 for a case of UC in a $40 mixed breed scrub buck and everybody around here thought I was NUTS.  

Thing is...I know a lot more about to do for UC now, and they don't.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 3, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Cephalexin/Ace&Rompum shot: $60.60
> Cruciate Ligament "tightrope" surgery:  $1,150.00
> Anesthetic, 1st 30mins: $60.00
> Anesthetic, after 30mins: $42.00
> ...


You forgot to add:  "Fixing the leg of your best boy:  Priceless"


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2010)

Hummm.  OK I hold the record for $ spent on a goat.  But she's such a pretty goat.

My claim to fame.

DonnaBelle


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 3, 2010)

Oops forgot to say also:

OSU is a great teaching facility for Vets.  So I thought the money was going to a great facility.

Besides after all  Boone Pickens has donated a total of $400 million to OSU for the Athletic Program.  Not one dime of that goes to teaching anybody anything.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Hummm.  OK I hold the record for $ spent on a goat.  But she's such a pretty goat.
> 
> My claim to fame.
> 
> DonnaBelle


Believe me...I'm laughing _with_ you -- not _at_ you.

What I'm doing _at_ you is this..   

More people should care about goats like we do.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 3, 2010)

Don't even get me started on how much I have paid out in vet bills for alpacas!

Spent over $400 a couple months ago on my special needs dog when she had a stroke.

So you are in good company Donna!


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## Roll farms (Mar 3, 2010)

The record for goat vet bills belongs to a friend of mine (not to outshine anyone else, I just thought this story bears telling...)

She got a "Nubian" wether (so she was told) for $40.00 along w/ his sister for another $60.00.

She calls me, says she heard about me from someone at TSC, and asks me if it's "normal" for a boy to only pee a drop or two at a time and grind his teeth a lot.  I told her to call a vet asap....sounded like UC.

A few months later she calls me again, says she'd had the doe dehorned (too old to disbud) and it was 'lying stiff on the ground, won't move.'  Again I told her to call a vet ASAP.

Time passes and I forget about it, since I get calls like that fairly regular.

The following spring she calls again and asks if I can come and trim her wether's hooves.  
I ask about the doe, she tells me she'd died from tetanus.   
Seems the vet who dehorned her didn't ask about vaccinations being UTD or give it Antitoxin.
(I decided then and there never to call THAT vet..)

She then tells me the wether'd had 3 surgeries by this point, 2 at the Purdue Vet School....to the tune of $1800.00 total.
He is currently peeing out a hole in his abdomen.  
He is a pygmy cross (short eared, I dunno where the "Nubian" was supposed to come from....) and very hairy...with all that urine leaking out his stomach, he is one extra stinky little fellow.

Since then he's been rushed to the vet 2 more times for rerouting of his pee tube.....She's spent another 600$ on him.

So he's a $2440.00 medical problem who stinks....but she wouldn't change a thing about it.  I think losing the doe so early into it really made her determined to keep that boy alive.  
Other than seeming a little slow on the uptake and stinky, he seems like a very happy goat.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2010)

ETA:  Look, I'll be really honest here..  Franklin, my UC buckling, got about all he was getting at $300+/-..  Had the treatment not worked well enough that he could dribble happily as he's still doing to date, the next step would have been a urethrostomy..  

Basically, to turn him into a girl.  

I'd pretty much already said "no" in my mind as the vet was telling me that it was a long, involved surgery and that animals who undergo it tend to have problems down the road, blah blah blah.  It wasn't even so much about the money either, though I can't say it wouldn't have been a consideration.  I'm not made of the stuff, afterall..  But, basically, the decision not to do the surgery would have been more about Frank's welfare than anything else.

What I'm driving at is...well...had Franklin blocked up again -- if Franklin blocks up again -- as much as I love him...well, that's a bullet.

While I am certainly a proponent of getting help with goats from qualified veterinarians, I'm also a proponent of making sure that what you're doing is actually going to _help_ the animal...not just make its life longer.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 4, 2010)

CM you hit the nail on the head.  

I had a beloved cat, a purebred, and he develped urinary tract infection, the vet turned he into a she basically.  $400.00

OK, so that worked for a while, then another situation came up, it seems he had gone diabetic and needed an kidney operation and to be on diuretics and insulin for the rest of his life.

You know, that cat was not a happy cat.  He knew he had big health problems.  He was not the same cat before he had all the health problems.

I had him put down, believe me, not an easy choice.  But I didn't want to torture him with an extended life of misery and shots.

I think quaility of life is important.

DonnaBelle


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## Roll farms (Mar 4, 2010)

I wasn't condoning what she's done for the goat, just telling a "most expensive goat vet bill ever" story.

I would have quit on him looooong ago, there's a point where the wallet has to over ride the heart....

But it's her goat / money...as she put it to me, "99 out of 100 days, he's fine and happy....how can that be wrong?"


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 4, 2010)

I know, we all have to decide what we can do, and what we can afford.

But what really burns me was a lead story on our local Tulsa news station last night.   A couple outside of Collinsville has about 15 horses. Someone called the Animal Control and reported them.

These had been some beautiful horses.  You should see them now. They had no fat, and had been losing muscle for sometime.  It was a long segment, and my husband and I were just simply amazed that people would let animals get into that condition.

They said they didn't have the money to feed them.  Ok, there are ways to get money for dire situations.  Believe me, I'd be at the feed store begging for some grain, or asking somebody for help. I don't know how these people can allow this to happen.

I don't think people should have animals of any kind if they can't afford to take care of them properly.  

Now as CM would say:  that's just me.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 4, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I wasn't condoning what she's done for the goat, just telling a "most expensive goat vet bill ever" story.


I think my post came out wrong..

I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were judging her decision either way...I know you were just telling the story.

I wasn't trying to judge her decision either...I dunno anything about her or the goat, so who am I, right?

All I was trying to get across was that, while I know I probably seem a little harsh on on people who won't use a vet for their goats, even a guy like me has his limits.  

That's all.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 8, 2010)

I found a page on the "TightRope CCL technique " that Ivan received.  Kinda neat, if anyone wants to check it out.

He got his stitches out yesterday, BTW..  

I pulled those by myself.  He was mostly a good boy about it, after I decided to give up on the very first stitch for a few minutes and come back to it later.  While the rest all came out easily, that first stitch was fricken buried in there!  Seriously...all I could see were the two tag ends and the top of the first knot.  Had to wet the area just a little to soften the scab (pulling a dry, scabbed-over stitch out of a partially-healed hole = YOWZA!), and when I finally got it to break free to where I could work it around...

...um, yeah...

...there were like three more knots underneath the one I could see!  I worked and worked and worked at it and finally got to where I _thought_ I was _maybe_ seeing what _might be_ one side of the loop.  I cut it, knowing that if I cut the whole knot off and left the loop in the dog, I'd be in trouble..  But I cut it anyway.

Zip..out came the stitch, intact.   

He went out to pee last night, did his biz, walked around for a few minutes, came over to me and my wife and got his lovins...then walked back to the door like "Ok, I'm ready to go back indoors and lay down on my big cushy bed now, like a good house dog.."

Uh oh. 

 


Oh, and...psst...don't tell anyone, but we're going to "look at" (read that as, _pick up_) another LGD this weekend.  She's a 4mo old pup...75% Pyr, 25% Sarplaninac.  She's out of the same Sarpie lines as Ivan, but has enough disparate DNA (Pyr) that we should be able to safely cross the two....and get 62.5% Sarpie puppies.

I haven't seen her yet, but the breeder says she's "light tan with a black face."  Gee, wonder where _that_ came from?


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## cmjust0 (Mar 26, 2010)

So, this past Wednesday marked four weeks post-op for Ivan.  Up until just a few days ago, I'd say he was walking somewhere around a pre-surgery level..  Seems he plateaus for a while, then improves a few notches at a time seemingly overnight.  Could just be our perception, though.  

In any case, it's become clear that he's actually moving _better_ than he was before the surgery over the last couple of days.  He's moving almost like he did a few days after a partial tear, way back before he blew his whole daggone knee out.  Just sort of a little hitch in his giddy at this point..  The incision healed beautifully, too...no infection or other soft tissue complications.

He's starting to realize he's moving better, too, and he's getting just a wee too big for his britches.    I find myself having to...ahem..."recommend" that he take it down a peg a little more often lately, as he's becoming more and more prone to wanting to play when he goes out..  They're super sensitive, so all it really takes is going "_Iiiivaaaaan_.." accompanied by a :/ ..   

Overall.....he's doing really, really well, and has been just a super duper trooper through the whole thing.  Very accomodating and surprisingly adaptable.  He really couldn't have taken it any better than he has.

Oh, and he's seen the new LGD puppy through the fence.  She's smart, though...she won't come over and outright visit him.  He really barked at her at first, but lately he'll kinda walk over to the fence to see if he can spot her..  When he does, his ears perk up and he locks his gaze direclty on her....but then his tail kinda starts to sway a little and you can sense that he kinda wants her to come say hi.  The pup usually perks up too, but she won't say a word.....which is hilarious, because she usually barks like crazy whenever the house dogs come out.  

I think she's kinda looking on like "Ok, now I know my own daddy was big, and the goats are big.....but this is _ridiculous_.  I ain't sayin nuthin, and I sure as heck ain't goin over there!" 

My guess is that when they're introduced, she'll be SUPER submissive and he won't take her as a threat.  I expect that once he gets all healed up and can do what he wants, he'll wanna play.  The folks who bred him said his daddy loved older pups..  Didn't care much for baby pups, but once they got old enough to run and jump and act goofy, he'd play with them all day long.

Ivan goes in the buck pen first, though, most likely in about two weeks...six weeks post-op.  Not much to do in the buck pen.  It's pretty small, so he won't have to walk long distances or anything.  Plus, he'll be seperated from the pup.  We figure he'll spend at least a month in there before going back to his regular duties.  Plus, there's a 7'x16' cattle trailer in there as housing for the boys, and it can be split to two 7'x8' sections.  If we decide we need to coop him up half the day or something, no problem..  He won't dig or claw his way out of that trailer, I can promise him that..  

And if he plays too much with the pup right off the bat when they're finally in together in six weeks or so, we may switch her into the buck pen and let him stretch his legs alone with the goats in the bigger barnyard area for a while.

Ok..  </novel>


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## cmjust0 (Mar 26, 2010)

OH!  Something else I forgot to mention (if you can believe it) is...

Ivan's super clean!     

Where he's been indoors in clean environs for four weeks, he's not dusty/dirty/muddy anymore and man...his 'true colors,' so to speak, are just amazing.  Such variation, from white to tan to almost orange, some black, with a bit of bluish gray..  His 'suspenders' really come through, too..

My wife mentioned getting a picture of him just to kinda compare and contrast to what he looks like when he's in the field..  We never really thought his color showed too much dirt, but.....well, guess it does!  

And his feet, you guys..._his toes are white!!_ _Who knew?!?!?!!!!!_


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## ksalvagno (Mar 26, 2010)

Glad to hear Ivan is doing just fine. Sounds like he will be back to normal in no time at all. 

How's the new pup doing?


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## AlisonJ_SFW2 (Mar 26, 2010)

I've been wondering how Ivan was doing.  Glad to hear he's recovering so well!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks.  

The new pup has been _awesome_ so far..  She's still a little weird around me, except when I have food.  All wariness goes out the window when a food dish is in play.  She'll belly crawl to me if I call her over even without food....but there's still a little part of her that worries I'm going to snap her head off.  She's getting over that quickly enough, though.

She's on my wife like white on rice, however, and has been since day one..  Jumping up, putting her paws on her for attention, all kinds of "cuteness" that's almost certainly going to become a real problem when she's about 100lbs.  

I won't let her do me that way though..  The dog, I mean.    

She's really good with the goats, too..  No scuffles yet, and they're getting more used to her being somewhat of a spaz.  They no longer split the herd, drop their heads, and put their hackles up when she comes busting a** into the middle of them.  They'll allow her to "weave" now.  Weaving seems to be her thing....if she leaves them for more than like 18 seconds, she'll turn and go flying right back into the thick of the herd and just weave around, saying hi to everybody for the 412th time that day.

The goats have become more or less indifferent, you might say.  Like..."Oh.  You again.  Yes, yes _hello_ little furry thing..  Yes, I know you're excited.  Ok then..  Move along.."

Pup's pretty alert, too, when she's awake.  Puppies sleep a lot.    She barks at anything non-normal, as well as some things that _are_ normal which she hasn't figured out yet.  Like the windchimes on the porch when it's really windy.  She stood out in the wind and rain last night and barked toward the front porch quite a bit.  

Ignores chickens, too..  We've had a couple of rogue roosters to fly out of their little area and walk around in the barn about half the day, and she pays them no attention whatsoever.  She's exhibited no prey drive that I've seen so far.

Of course, I'm under no illusion that she knows her job precisely and that she'll never need any correction for putting a hole in a goat or grabbing a chicken or anything like that...she is a dog, afterall, and -- contrary to popular belief -- LGDs don't run on pure magic..  So far, though, she really seems to have all the traits necessary to a good LGD.  If we have to correct a few "extra" traits, no biggie..  It's to be expected.  So, overall...she gets   ...way up.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 26, 2010)

That's great! Glad to hear she is working out. Hopefully the dogs will get along well and work together as a team. Or will they be in different fields?


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## cmjust0 (Mar 26, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> That's great! Glad to hear she is working out. Hopefully the dogs will get along well and work together as a team. Or will they be in different fields?


They'll work tandem until she knows the ropes and/or gets to such an age that she could may start coming into heat.  We don't want her being bred until she's fully mature at about 2 years of age.

I guess you could say the'll end up having an on-again/off-again relationship.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ivan went out into the buckpen this past Wednesday after eight...long...weeks of cooped-uppedness.  He's doing really, really well so far.  Bouncy, happy, playful.  The bucks are like...WTFnF is that?!?    They've never lived with an LGD before, so they're terrified of him...which he obviously thinks is hilarious.  He's chosen poor ol' Frank (former UC buckling...basket case/problem child) to be his "buddy," which means he occasionally stalks him and chases him and mouths on the back of his neck to be annoying.  



Not cool, you say?  Not LGD like, you say?

Meh.  

Ivan's been cooped up too long and feels good to be back outside...and I think he's a little frustrated that he's in a new, smaller area with less to do...and he kinda wants to play...all of which are really, really good signs, diagnostically speaking.  



New pup's doing great, too..  We had Ivan out in the barnyard with her one day and they seem to sorta know what one another are...guardians.  He sniffed around on her (which she was really happy about) and then just sorta moved on sniffing everything else.  

She followed him around like a...well, like a puppy dog.  It was really cute, and I wish we could have left him out there but we suspected that some serious playtime was imminent...intermittantly chasing a goat is one thing, but playing with a puppy is a bit much for him right now.  That's why he was almost immediately transferred to the buckpen.

The pup's actually starting to be a lil bit ornery at times  , which is to be expected, but the good news is that she responds well to correction.  She actually took a wild hair and tried to "play" with a rooster the other day...responded in roughly .001 seconds to a stern verbal correction from yours truly.  Very, very sensitive...also to be expected.  

She's super smart, too...I got her to sit for treats (which are actually glucosamine/chondroitin and fish oil pills wrapped in cheese  ) in like two tries.  She didn't give me a chance to reinforce the training because now she comes right over and sits immediately when she thinks I have something for her.

Super good puppy, overall.

We changed her name to Mischa, btw..  Dunno if I'd mentioned that before.


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