# Puppy and hot wire troubles.



## babsbag (Jan 10, 2017)

I need some advice from some pros. 

I brought Alondra home about 2 weeks ago, she is 5 months old ASD and not really leashed trained. After a few days in the barn we went for walk in the field with the goats and she hit the hot wire, and screamed her head off. Ended that on a bad note. The next day she comes out into the field with me and spends about 30 min. with the other dogs exploring and being a dog. And then she hit the hot wire again, she headed for the barn. The next day she didn't want to go into the field but I coaxed her and guess what...how can any pup be so unlucky, the field is big. 

Now she is terrified to leave the barn. How do I "fix" her?  I have had dogs and pups learn about the wire many many times, but they have never had this bad of a reaction. I feel horrible, but I see her trying (and succeeding) to climb out of her kennel with 5' stock panel so she needs to learn to respect the fence. 

Short of dragging her out with a leash on any other ideas? Have I ruined her for life?


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 10, 2017)

Give her time - let her stay with the pack - don't cut her back on time with them.  She will see their ways around the wire and hopefully learn and get over the fear.  They have to learn.
It is never pretty.  Give her more time, its too early to say she has been 'ruined'.  Too much too soon, sit back relax don't rush her so much.  Let her be let her come out on  own, mingle with pack.  That is key she has to join them and settle in.  2 weeks is too soon to make judgement.  Assuming of course, she is of good breeding stock, from good proven lines and good breeder.


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## babsbag (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm not really worried that she is 'ruined',  I know she is young. I just wanted ideas on ways to reintroduce her to the field and if I should drag her out of the barn or let her take her own time. The last time she hit the wire she ran away from the barn and went and sat in a creek for about 30 min. I finally carried her to the barn...literally, she would not come near that wire on her own and I needed to go do other things. I will just give her some time and let her decide what to do, she loves my other dogs so I am hoping that she will follow again eventually.  

She seems perfectly comfortable around the goats and had been with them when I got her. After my struggles with my 1 year old LGD, Mia, this girl will be a walk in the park.  

She will be experiencing her first kidding tonight too. Of course from the other side of the wire since my goats aren't sure about this new little creature and I don't want to stress out the doe. They know about dogs, just not this dog yet.


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## Bruce (Jan 10, 2017)

Did she hit the wire when she wasn't paying attention? I wonder if you flagged the wires closest to her eye level she would see them more easily.


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## babsbag (Jan 11, 2017)

She walked up to fence line and started sniffing and the wire is just at her head height so when she raised her head she was under the wire. She just doesn't know that it is even there.  I think I will try and hang some flags on the part that she is in the most.


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## babsbag (Feb 27, 2017)

Alondra still won't leave the barn. She happily goes in with the goats after breakfast but she won't go out into the field at all. The other day all the goats and dogs went into the back pasture and she sat there and howled for over an hour. I finally gave her a goat from another pen just to shut her up.  I guess it is good that she missed her herd when they left and she is PERFECT with the baby goats. They sleep on her, climb on her, and she pays them no mind. I am thrilled about that at least.  She barks when the other dogs bark, and she barks at things she sees as a threat, but not a nuisance barker; I love that too. Now if I could only get her out of the barn.  Maybe I need to get some hot dogs and lure her. IDK


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## samssimonsays (Feb 28, 2017)

What about a gentle leader like a horse halter for dogs or a collar and lead to get her walking. I am sure in a little while she'll forget and want to venture out there when she sees how much fun it is outside. Or feels her goats are threatened out there.... I'm no expert but we did have a rough go of it with our dogs and the underground fence, I know it's different but it was a warning beep then zap and even with the flags they didn't get it right away... . They were affraid of people and the woods on any side of us because they got zapped a couple times when they jumped up and one side of the fence was before the woods.... It took sadie a couple months to come around but she was more sensitive. Rumely forgot and acted like he was dying every time he got it and Stella knew what it meant. Hopefully this means she'll respect it a whole lot more


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

I would get some treats and get her to come out a tiny bit, then the next time get her to come a little farther... Build up to her getting farther from the barn. 

She sounds like she's going to be a fantastic dog once she gets a little braver!


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## babsbag (Feb 28, 2017)

I was thinking of the leash but I think I need to get her used to it in friendly territory first and then the field and I just haven't had time. She is my gentle soul, she corrects easy and wants to please me. She is the opposite of Mia; who is turning out to be a great LGD too. 

Mia never leaves her goats and they follow her everywhere. While I will say that Mia is a patroller she will go on a high spot and rest and watch too. She has let the baby goats crawl all over her without trying to play with them but she and Alondra play hard. I really wish I had raised her with another puppy, IMO it is so much easier to have two pups.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

See the biggest problem here is we haven't seen any updated pictures of her


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## Bruce (Feb 28, 2017)

I think you have it right @babsbag. Leash her and walk her around away from the field and fence. That should set in her mind that the entire outside world isn't going to bite her. From there hopefully you can get her closer to the field. Not sure how you get her to the safe edge of the "warning lane" distance to the fence though.  I wonder if a shock collar with tonal warning that you control would help with that. When you near the fence (once she is willing to get within a thousand feet of it!) hit the warning tone (skipping the shock button of course) and then walk parallel to it so she maybe learns there is something there she doesn't want to approach. Intentionally dip a bit closer to the fence now and then and hit the warning, then retreat, continuing down the fence line. 

Or not since I've never had to deal with this. 

Too bad Mia can't just sit her down and explain things to her in dog language!


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## babsbag (Feb 28, 2017)

I think that is a good idea with the collar and I have one of those. I have had many dogs learn about fences but none have been terrified like this. I have been turning off the fence during the day just in case she gets brave.


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 1, 2017)

babsbag I'm concerned to read pup is still stuck in the barn.  Going to PM you if that is okay with some thoughts and ideas.


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## babsbag (Mar 1, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> babsbag I'm concerned to read pup is still stuck in the barn.  Going to PM you if that is okay with some thoughts and ideas.


That would be welcomed. Thanks.


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 1, 2017)

@babsbag I seem to be unable to PM you or am limited to only 400 letters ?
So putting it up here.

It is impossible for me to say how much of this could be coming from events that happened to the puppy before you got him at a fairly advanced age.  But that aside, going with this.

Pup obviously wants to be with the pack.  You must make it comfortable for him.  I want you to go buy one of those humane harnesses - I apologize I don't have a link for one, but there are many versions out there now that are affordable.  They are less stressful and confusing than a collar and leash.  Get pup in that harness and comfy - i.e. leave him in it for a night.  Let him see it won't hurt him.

When morning comes and you let dogs and goats out from the barn, I want you to do more than just let them out.  I want you to take pup along with you and follow the pack and goats.  Yes, use treats - hot dogs, cheese - to bring pup along.  The key here is YOU are going to be part of this, and do it at least twice a day more if possible.  The point being, the dogs need to see you as part of the family pack, not just the gate opener who then disappears. The pup needs the added assurance and comfort of knowing you are there, and part of this.  As this goes on I want you to walk parallel to the hot wire, and put yourself between the hot wire and pup.  You are his protector.  His shield.  In time, he is going to see you as a partner and part of this, and it is going to give him confidence he lacks.  It will take time, but the whole thing is you don't just stand up at the barn and wave goodbye to dogs and goats.  YOU go with them.  YOU become part of that little 'migration' every day.  And you hang out there with them.  You do it at least twice a day if not more.  You sit down out there in the field - that is a huge calming signal.  It shows dogs you are relaxed, calm, 'all is well' - they will feed off that and so will pup.

Let me know once you've tried it.


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## Bruce (Mar 3, 2017)

Then she doesn't need the dog since she is taking the place of one! 

Sounds like a good plan and I hadn't thought of the handler being between the dog and the fence as a "protective barrier". Your experience is showing


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## Southern by choice (Mar 3, 2017)

These are the harnesses we use for hotwire training we use a lunge lead for free movement but controlled...


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## babsbag (Mar 3, 2017)

I will go harness and hot dog shopping. She loves food so tempting her with a treat should be fairly easy...I hope.

When I first got her she had no problems following me out into the field and she was not afraid of the goats or of her new surroundings. She spent two night in the house as I wanted her to meet the house dogs and cats and just get comfortable with me. I was  happy with her confidence around the other animals and her new home but it did take a bit of work to get her used to slippery floors; she was good with carpet but gave the hardwood an evil eye. She loved going to do chores with me as dirt, dogs, and goats is what she knew.  She is a climber and digger so the hot wire is in her future.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 3, 2017)

Personally I have NEVER used food as a motivator. Relationship and trust is superior and has far better results. 
I also have never owned a LGD that could be manipulated by food. Even when we had young pups that the neighbor tried to bribe with food it didn't happen- it only made those dogs to view that neighbor as a permanent enemy. Why? Because WE were not present.
I know trainers will do things differently however food bribery has consequences as well.... if you can bribe, so can others.


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## babsbag (Mar 3, 2017)

I don't want to pull, push, carry, or drag...she is too big.  The second time she hit the fence I had to carry her back to the barn and that was 2 months ago and it was a chore then; I think she would have stayed in the creek all day.  Food may be my only option. That girl just becomes dead weight at the barn door.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 3, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I don't want to pull, push, carry, or drag...she is too big.  The second time she hit the fence I had to carry her back to the barn and that was 2 months ago and it was a chore then; I think she would have stayed in the creek all day.  Food may be my only option. That girl just becomes dead weight at the barn door.


Maybe "little one" needs to fly out!


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 5, 2017)

I only use food as a motivator in situations where other methods have failed, and in this case, this pup is not wanting to come along.
The sooner you get going on this the better because the longer you don't do it, the less chance there will be to turn her around without considerable effort.  @southernbychoice showed you some great halter ideas.  I think you can benefit by reading some books too (see below).

@babsbag please make an effort to take her down there a few times a day.  Are you sitting down there with the goats as I recommended?
Turid Rugaas' books are books that I insist my puppy buyers read.  They are simple, forthcoming and a gold mine of information that can help you better understand
and communicate with your dog.  Please consider them.  She even has a book on pulling.  Calming Signals is a must read.  When you begin to realize the messages you are or may be sending
out to your dogs, it can make a huge difference in how they interact with you.
Here is an Amazon link to her books.  https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=turid+rugaas


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## babsbag (Mar 5, 2017)

I have no pet store in the little town I live in and TSC and Walmart didn't have what I needed. I will be going to the "big city" next week to look for a harness; I am sure that Petsmart or Petco will have one for her.


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 11, 2017)




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## Bruce (Mar 11, 2017)

X2!


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## Baymule (Mar 11, 2017)

No pictures???


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## Mike CHS (Mar 12, 2017)

Until you get a harness you can do what we do with the long lead.  We use the long lead as a harness for our herding dogs but also for Maisy when we first started working with her and her sitting and refusing to move.

You run the lead around the dogs chest and put the clip over the lead line.  Then connect the clip end of the lead to the dogs collar.  The line itself is free to move in the leads clip but all of the pressure is on the body and not the neck.


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## babsbag (Jul 25, 2017)

Just an update...Alondra is doing GREAT.  She goes into all of the fields just fine, no fear at all. When I opened up the new pasture she couldn't contain her curiosity and there was no wire in that field so she was "safe". Since then a wire has been added and she doesn't care. She even goes into the fields that she was afraid of before. I see her look at the hot wire, but she doesn't run from it.  She did this on her own, in her own time. I did buy the harness but never put it on her...(building a dairy has consumed my life. )

I will often see her with the goats laying under a tree and watching...good girl. She will be the only one right with the herd on a hot summer day.  After dinner she goes out on one last patrol before I lock up the field at night.  At night I hear her bark as needed but she is not a needless barker, none of my dogs are.  The fights between her and Mia seem to have subsided and Mia lets her rule. (let's see what happens when one of them comes into heat) They will share spilled kibble but they won't share a food dish. I'm ok with that too.  

She will be a year old in a few days and I am happy to report that she is a successful LGD. She is great with all the goats, no chasing at all.  I have not trained or worked with her and chickens, which was her original purpose but after seeing her with her goats and with Mia (they are a good team) I won't remove her from the herd. 

I am very happy with her, she is a good girl.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 25, 2017)

So glad she overcame her fear...sometimes they just have to figure it out on their own I think!


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## Bruce (Jul 25, 2017)




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## Latestarter (Jul 25, 2017)




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## Baymule (Jul 25, 2017)

We need pictures!!!!


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 1, 2017)

I wondered what became of you and this challenge and am happy to hear things are now back on track for the dog and you both.


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