# Goats in the attic?



## JoyfulGoats (Feb 5, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I will be getting goats this summer, and am currently considering my housing options. We have recently built a 10x10 shed for the chickens, and at first the goats will be living in that space too. I will be starting with 2 nigerian dwarves, and our climate allows the animals to go outside all year, so the coop is only to sleep. Basically, in that coop will be about 6 chickens and 2 dwarf goats. Now I was thinking that in order to give them more space and prevent the goats from eating the chickens' food, to use the attic as housing for one or the other. It would be easier in some ways for the chickens to go in the attic since 1) they can fly and easily climb a ladder 2) they are light so won't make a ton of noises for the animals downstairs, however, we would have to crawl in the attic to pick up the eggs, which isn't fun when you're in a hurry in the morning. 

I thought about maybe putting the goats there (the attic is high enough for the goats to walk around without bumping their heads), but I have a few concerns and would like to have the opinion of goat owners on whether this could work. I searched for people who have tried this, but didn't find anything. My concerns are these: 1)I'm worried about them falling while climbing. If we put them there, they would have very large stairs, so I'm not worried about them falling by themselves, but more if another goat pushes them. One way to prevent this would maybe be to put sides on the stairs. 2) the noise from the walking upstairs for the chickens who would live below, but this could be remedied by putting some Roxul Safe N' Sound to soundproof it. 

Does this seem like a feasable plan? My major worry is them falling. I know goats can climb trees, but...

Thanks!


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## NH homesteader (Feb 5, 2017)

Hi and welcome! Do you have pictures of what you're using for housing? I'm kind of confused. Will you be blocking the goats up there? Because otherwise they'll just come down the stairs and get into the chicken feed. Goats have this awful attraction to chicken feed.

There are other options for keeping the goats from getting into the chicken's food. I keep mine separate but I'm sure someone will chime in with ideas!


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 5, 2017)

Well, if ya are planning on using the 10x10 for all the animals, I would separate it into 2 sections and have both on the bottom floor. I wouldn't keep them in the same open area for a number of reasons....parasites, feed, and some goats don't like chickens and will kill them. If ya only have 6 chickens I'give them about a third of the bldg, and the goats the rest. The one thing ya have to realize is that when it is bad weather, the goats will stay inside. You wouldn't need but a roost and a couple of nest boxes, or a couple of 5gal buckets used as nests....cut the lid to be about 4-5" high so hay, shavings, and eggs aren't pushed out. Something about chickens and goats, both like to get to the Highest point they can get too. So, put roost higher than nests, and close access to the attic. By the time ya sound proof and do all the other you were planning on doing, ya could put up a simple separation wall, they would have plenty of room, and you could get your eggs from the ground. This would allow the feed to be separated too. Some chicken feed will kill goats or make them very sick, so be careful.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 5, 2017)

Sorry, I just realized you are a new member...Welcome from NW Mississippi! 
Glad to have ya with us, and you'll find there are some really Great people here with vast knowledge and experience they are more than willing to share. There is a lot of info in the Forums and Threads so browse around and never hesitate to share pics, questions, and comments. Something that will be very beneficial to ya is to list your general location on your banner. Whenever you need help, advice, or suggestions it will allow the members to have an idea of weather, conditions, and problems that could be of importance in their replies. What is faced here can be very different than say Michigan. Hope things work out for ya, and ya may want to post a "Hello Thread" in the new member section so the members can Welcome ya properly.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks for the welcome ! I thought of putting a seperation, and it will probably be what I do at first, but at some point I would like to have 10-12 chickens and a rooster, so they will need more space. Eventually we will build another shed, but it might take a while because of the costs (we will be building a house on a 8 acre lot and will have to build fences for the animals, on top of the shed we just built.

For the bad weather, we were thinking of maybe putting up a "tent" using tarp to keep them dry. My chickens hate going out when it's windy or raining, but they can still go out about 90% of the year.

If I put up a seperation, do you think they would have enough space even when they can't go out? That was one of the major reasons for me considering the attic. 

I hope that the chickens and the goats will get along. I know that a lot of people keep them together. I will introduce them while my goats are still young, so that it's more of an even playing field at the start.

I live in the south of Ontario, Canada. I'll add it to my profile.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 5, 2017)

Had to search it out, all I have is a cell phone, and I don't know how to "Link" with it. But, on page 109 of "Devonviolet Acres" you can see the bucket nests that I was referring to. There is also a simple goat shelter pictured a couple of pages forward there also. @Devonviolet has some really good ideas that she shares with us....Good Luck with it again.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 5, 2017)

My goats go outside all winter. They don't like rain or really wet snow, but we have a little roof over an outdoor hay feeder and they hang out there during all but the worst weather.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 5, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> Hi and welcome! Do you have pictures of what you're using for housing? I'm kind of confused. Will you be blocking the goats up there? Because otherwise they'll just come down the stairs and get into the chicken feed. Goats have this awful attraction to chicken feed.
> 
> There are other options for keeping the goats from getting into the chicken's food. I keep mine separate but I'm sure someone will chime in with ideas!



Hi! Sorry, I didn't see your message before. There is an outside trap to the attic which is very large. We would close it at night so they can only stay in the attic, if we chose to keep them there. I don't have pictures at the moment, but it's just a standard 10x10 wooden shed, with the roof/attic part of about 40sq.ft. in the middle and smaller sections all along beside it, just big enough for a sleeping goat.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 5, 2017)

Well, my set-up is one house, but it is split into 2 halves, one for the chickens and one for the ducks....we have 9hens&2roos GLW, and 11hens&1drake Khaki Campbells and Rouens. This is the "Dotties" side....
 the roosts are on the left and nests on the right. There is a hole in the floor that goes to an enclosed area under the house that is the same size as the inside, 6x8. It is the shorter end of this bldg... The chickens, or "Dotties" as we call them, have the right-hand side of this bldg, and they can go from ground to roost inside. There are 11 of them and they only use half of the available roost room now. There are 2 roost runners that are 63" long. So, if they stay in because of weather and can get out and about most of the time, they wouldn't need as much space as ya might think. It does sound like y'all are going to be quite Busy on those 8acres for a little while any way. Oh, don't forget about the predators ya have up there.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 5, 2017)

I'm not worried about the chickens not having enough space, but the goats. I've had chickens for almost 2 years, so I now know their habits, but I've never had goats. Online some people say that you can keep 2 nigerian dwarfs in 20sq.ft., but I find that way too small. I have previous chicken coop that is 4x6 for when I had 4 chickens, but I would find that much too small for goats. I was thinking at least 5x10 for 2. 

An idea I had was that if I keep them all together in the 10x10 (assuming they get along - especially since I will be leaving the horns on), to attatch the small 4x6 coop and leave a door too small for a goat, but ok for the chickens, and put their feed their so that the goats can't get it. That would maximize space while keeping the goats safe.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 5, 2017)

Well, I use an old chicken house for our 3 pygmy goats. It was designed with 2 different sides...a roost side and a nest side with a hole in the dividing wall so on bad days they could go from side to side without going outside. Here are some pics....
  the left side is their sleeping shelter, and the right is where I feed them in bad weather....it was raining when I took this. Here is the inside.... this is the lounging area.... this is the feeding side. I don't have a pic on my phone of the hole, but it isn't very big and all 3 goats can run thru it, and they aren't tiny goats, tho they are a far cry from a standard sized goat.... it is my wife in the pic and she is 5'9" with a 34" inseam, just so ya can have some perspective. Our goats have horns, too. So ya may want to put the small door up a bit with access up and away from the goats if it is small enough, like some small branches the goats probably won't climb it, but figure on them trying. We've only had ours for a yr and a half, so it wasn't too long ago we were in your shoes of Wanting, but never had. They truly are interesting and great animals, but as mischiveous as 3-5yr olds. They will certainly Amaze ya with their antics and personalities. Presently I am working to expand the fenced area so we can add a few more. Hope some of this will help ya, and tho my experience is very limited, will answer what I can for ya....all ya gotta do is ask.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks for your help  Have you had any issues with the horns? I want my goats to be "productive pets", so I'm slightly worried about the horns, but overall I think it's best to keep them. I can't wait to get them.

How big in total is your goats' living space?

Do you think the goats would be able to get through a hole 5" wide by 8" high?


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 5, 2017)

Probably not that small of a hole, but I'll measure it tomorrow and let ya know. I haven't measured the inside of the bldg either and will do that too. I'll have the tape out tomorrow digging post holes, so it won't be a problem.. Here is a pic of their immediate area they have now, there is a deck around the bldg, and it is the Best thing I could've ever done....just beginners luck really. They sleep on it, lounge on it, play on it, and it keeps them off of the ground.... the back area of their pen... the back of their house is just behind the cedar tree....I sow rye grass, winter peas, and crimson clover in their pen in the fall and they eat on it all winter. We get them out every day and walk them around for about an hour or so, they browse on the weeds in the field and honeysuckle on the ditch bank.


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## Latestarter (Feb 6, 2017)

Really, I think maybe you're overthinking this. You don't need to spend a lot of money to make a "goat house"... A three sided shelter with a roof called a "run in" shelter would be more than adequate. You can do it with 4 pieces of 4x8 plywood or even particle board and some 2x4s... Lay three pieces as the sides and back and the 4th on top as the roof. Then get a roll of fencing and some T posts to make a round fenced in area with the ends of the fencing connecting to either side of the run-in shelter (leave one side gently attached so it can act as a gate) and you'll be more than adequate. You could even enclose the area with cattle panels wired together in a circle without many T posts, and that way the "corral" could be more easily moved to fresh grass every so often. I would be concerned about keeping the goats and chickens together in that small space for fear the chickens would get stepped on. Also it's not good for the goats to eat chicken feed.

Hope you'll share what you end up doing with us as it may help someone else down the road. Congrats on your new place and plans!


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 6, 2017)

I am considering that as well. I would want it to have a closed door though, as I want to be sure that predators can't get in. One of the reasons why I was trying to find a no build option is that the part of our lot where we currently have the chicken shed is a "buffer zone" for our neighbours who have trees. Even though our lot has been a field for over 50 years with no trees and our neighbours' lands are dry, it is apparently "a protected wetland" because when the snow melts, there is water for a tiny bit since it is clay soil . Part of our land is a buffer to the non-existent wet land (we've had the lot since spring and it's drier than our city lot). To build on it there again is a bit complicated. Doable, but a hassle. If we were to build on the opposite side of the lot, then we would have to walk the goats to the fence each day, which could be an option, but do you think they would just jump the fence trying to get back home? I will look into our options and see. We might be able to build another shed (max 10x10) about 70 ft from where the first one is, which we could build the way you described.

A new building would be my ideal solution, so I will check about this option again. Thanks


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 7, 2017)

Sorry @JoyfulGoats , I got the pics but forgot to post them. The hole is 10"x16".... and the measurements of each room is about 9.5'x5.5'. This is a pic of the nest boxes my Mom used. The reason I included it, is because the 2 Boys have been getting up there since we got them at 3mnths old..... ...my Mom would separate the 2 rooms when she had a broody hen, and would then allow the hen to raise them, separate from the flock.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 7, 2017)

Thank you for the measurements . If I'm understanding correctly, your goats use the chicken nests? Do they sleep in the nests?

For the coop, it will be possible to build a new shed (but not as elaborate as the first one). Something like this:



 


 Kinda as Latestarter described. We are approved by the conservation group to have it 10x10, 70 ft away from the current one. We might be able to move it closer if we submit a request. It will have 2 doors of 2ft wide each, so that we can have a 4ft opening if we want. The other 3ft on each side will be fixed. One of those 3ft x10ft will be a raised sleeping area. Is that wide enough? I don't know how goats sleep. If we get more goats, the other side will also be a sleeping area.


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## Bruce (Feb 8, 2017)

I'm glad you mentioned 2 doors and the solid section. I can just imagine trying to swing an 8' wide piece of plywood. Since your reason for "total enclosure" is predator protection, not weather protection I wonder if the upper half of the solid section and the doors could be made with 2x4 wire so there is a lot of light and air. Maybe even everything above shoulder height so they can see out.  

That first one must be somewhere it never snows, no way I'd want to shovel everything away down to dirt from the front of it to open the door even a few feet.  Unless you are going to raise it off the ground some, I think I'd make it so the bottom of the doors are a foot up, the goats and people can step over.

I don't know goats so someone else can answer whether the goats would like a sleeping platform or not.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 8, 2017)

Make sure there is adequate ventilation in whatever you build for them, or they will end up with respiratory issues. What kind of predators are you trying to keep out? I don't lock my goats in at night. They are fairly close to my house though.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 8, 2017)

@JoyfulGoats no they don't get in the nests, but lay on top and on the boards in front of the nests.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 9, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I'm glad you mentioned 2 doors and the solid section. I can just imagine trying to swing an 8' wide piece of plywood. Since your reason for "total enclosure" is predator protection, not weather protection I wonder if the upper half of the solid section and the doors could be made with 2x4 wire so there is a lot of light and air. Maybe even everything above shoulder height so they can see out.
> 
> That first one must be somewhere it never snows, no way I'd want to shovel everything away down to dirt from the front of it to open the door even a few feet.  Unless you are going to raise it off the ground some, I think I'd make it so the bottom of the doors are a foot up, the goats and people can step over.
> 
> I don't know goats so someone else can answer whether the goats would like a sleeping platform or not.



I'm not worried about having to shovel snow, because we almost never get more than 3", which melts fairly quickly. 

An 8' door would not be great . With the 2 doors, we can choose between only leaving a 2' opening if it's very windy, or 4' if we need to bring something in the shed.

I will think about your wire idea. I know that ventilation is important, but I always feel bad for them if it's windy. I might make one side with a wire window so that they have ventilation but can get out of the wind.



NH homesteader said:


> Make sure there is adequate ventilation in whatever you build for them, or they will end up with respiratory issues. What kind of predators are you trying to keep out? I don't lock my goats in at night. They are fairly close to my house though.



I don't know what kind of predators I'm trying to keep out. I've always lived in the city, so here it's just rats (quails) and cats, but the only animals I know for sure live near the land are white-tailed deer, the neighbour's cats and dogs (the dogs are never loose), and a ton of mice. However, there are "sightings" of cougars in the area, which may or may not exist. Apparently they haven't been in the area for like a century, but some scientist still think there are some and people occasionally "see" them. Basically, I'd rather be safe than sorry. Even if there were only cats, I'd prefer to have 4 sides. My animals are my babies. Their sheds will be about 200-300ft from our house.


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## Bruce (Feb 10, 2017)

Coons as well as foxes are a likely threat to your chickens.

If you look up a Wood's style coop you can see how it is possible to have TONS of ventilation and NO drafts. If there are NO openings on the sides, back, roof (not even where they meet), no wind can blow into the structure through the "open" front. Simple back pressure. Your goats can have a half wall in the front and not get wind nor rain nor snow nor dark of, OK they will still get dark of night.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 10, 2017)

I did not know that, thanks for the information! So I would need to cap the seams somehow where the sides meet? 

I don't know if there are raccoons or foxes, but I'm operating as though they were. 

My previous chicken coop had wire doors that were never covered, and my current quail coop has a wire front, but the current shed doesn't. I'm not really sure how I would add ventilation to it. Here is what it looks like (the bow is just to hide my friend's reflection). 




 

I call this shed "the mushroom", because it looks like one with the way to door was placed. I wanted to put it this way, but my grandpa (who helped us build it) insisted for the way it currently is...



 

Anyways, the window is fixed, so would I have to make a new hole for ventillation? It would not look great. The new shed will have adequate ventilation, but what about this one? If I make a hole on the side, it will be in the wind's direction.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 10, 2017)

The first one, ya could put some ventilation in the gables. They can be covered with ventilation covers. They are not very expensive and it doesn't take long to install. Also, if the other 3 walls are solid, then a few slits 6"x2' with hardware cloth covering it would increase the flow, too.


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## Bruce (Feb 10, 2017)

You aren't really going to get a lot of airflow just based on hoping the wind blows through some small vents. What you really want is some vents down low and some up high. @CntryBoy777's suggestion of 6" x 2' vents is a good start. The natural convection will pull air in the bottom and send it out the upper vents. Is that coop gabled like the second one or is it a "low in the front, high in the back" flat roof? And where are the roosts? Maybe a couple of more pictures would help. 

If it is the second kind and the roosts run near and parallel to the back wall, put high vents on the back wall and low vents on the front wall. You might need some low ones on the side walls as well. The natural convection won't be a powerful wind causing a draft on the birds on the roost. 

If it is a gabled roof, you can put a ridge vent in. You'll want to look it up but basically you cut the plywood back a bit on each side of the ridge and fasten the ridge vent down. You can replace the ridge cap that is there now with a ridge vent.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 10, 2017)

Sorry, I forgot that we had put vents below the roof. Like in the "overhang" which is technically part of the attic's floor. However, the attic isn't closed. I was thinking of making a door for the animals which would be made of hardware cloth. But I was thinking it over and realized that the reason why we didn't put as much ventilation in this shed was because last year we had lots and the chickens were a bit cold (mostly the silkies). However, the doors are open all year during the day, except maybe 5 days a year, so there is ample ventilation. It is only closed during the night.


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## Bruce (Feb 11, 2017)

The vents under the overhang are soffit vents. Unless there are more vents higher up, they do nothing.  Even if there is a vent higher up, there is no air exchange below the soffits. It is unlikely that air that can come in lower down through open doors or windows will create a natural convection out the soffit vents since they aren't high up in the building.

In order of increasing functionality with respect to natural attic ventilation: 

soffit vents only - worthless because there is nowhere for the air that could come in them to go out
gable vent on one end only - worthless for the same reason
ridge vent only - no way for air to come in so the hot air in the attic can't go out the vent, think "vacuum"
gable vents only - require the wind to blow through from one side to the other but there will be some air exchange when the wind can blow through. The air under the level of the gable vents doesn't get exchanged much
soffit and gable vents - hot air can go out the gable vents, replaced with air coming in the soffits which are lower. Not ideal since there isn't any movement in the middle of the space unless the wind is blowing through
soffit and ridge vent. Natural convection of the hot air going out the ridge vent pulls air in the soffit vents. Both run the full length of the building.
I think the reason you have gotten by with the coop shut up at night (meaning no ventilation) is due to its size and the small number of chickens within. There is a sufficient volume of air to absorb the ammonia from the chickens pooping and the humidity from their breathing and not cause them a proplem. Since the coop is open during the day, the "stale" are can mix with fresh air.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 13, 2017)

Well I think I'll see how it goes. This year the 6 chickens that were previously in 4' wide x 6' long x 4' high will be in a 10' wide x 10' wide x 8' high, with the doors open all day, and if we notice any issues we will add ventilation. Thank you though for the information on the different types of vents. Just wondering, does not having a solid bottom help even if it is "full"? Our shed is almost a foot off the ground, but we will place 1/2" x 1/2" wire cloth on the bottom and fill it up with dirt so that it's no longer floating, but does the fact that there is a direct contact to the ground help? (Just out of curiosity)

Today I was able to find 5' high 2"x4" fence for the price of the 4' fence I had got on sale, so I a, very happy about that.


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## Bruce (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm not sure what the question is. Are you saying that the shed has no floor? Planning to put 1/2" hardware cloth on the ground and up to the sills of the shed? If you fill that with shavings there still won't be any air coming in. If there is any part of the hardware cloth that is not blocked, it would act as a low vent to let air in (which assumes high vents as previously described). Of course chickens scratch all the time so who knows where it would be open and when 

Or are you saying you are going to fill it with dirt and put 1/2" hardware cloth over that to keep out digging predators? No air exchange will happen in that case.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 16, 2017)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The hardware cloth will be on the ground and then we will add dirt on too of it so that it's more comfortable to walk on. It does usually end up with some parts open though, as you said. There wouldn't be any air exchange when filled, but I was just curious if whether the fact that it was directly on the ground (which maybe could absorb some humidity) helped compared to on a cement floor.

Anyways, I talked about what I was planning to build with my grandpa (who worked in construction), and he said that it won't be strong enough. The biggest it could be to hold up would be 8x8x4'. So if I wanted a shed 10x10x 8ft high, I am back to the cost option. I really don't want to have to go back to a 4' height and have to keep bending down. With my last chicken coop, it was very annoying and I would regularly bump my head. So I'm not sure what I will end up doing... my last shed cost $1600, and I don't want to spend that much again since we will already be spending at least $1400 for the goats + fence, and are having a house built. Ideally, it would be to wait until next year when we are settled in, but I really want to have them this summer.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 16, 2017)

Just thinking out loud...

A 10x10cube with 2x4s about 16 inches apart along the sides should be enough to support it, right? Then plywood sides on top of that and (for now) a painted plywood roof (will eventually have to change, but will last a few years). I'm really hoping to build something 10x10x6 or 8' high for less than $300


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 16, 2017)

Something like this, with plywood on the sides. I think I could make it for around $500 + paint.


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## Bruce (Feb 18, 2017)

I got a little lost. What are we supporting? 

You can build any size anything with the appropriate support. If the span is too wide, you can put in a support beam and posts in the middle. If you don't want the posts, you need a bigger support beam. 

For instance in the picture above, there ABSOLUTELY should be a header for that doorway. The roof rafters are going to push down the doubled 2xs that span the opening. That header is likely a doubled 2x8 (set vertically on jack studs nailed to the studs at the edge of the opening). You would typically have a header just above the window as well. And I would want 4 more concrete pads. AND what are those sitting on? If there isn't a broad base under each one, the entire thing will sink into the ground. 

Not sure the difference in cost between 2x4 and 2x6 but if you can build something with 2x4s 16" on center you can likely build it with 2x6s on 24" centers. You would have to calculate it out to see what is cheaper.

I don't think you will have less humidity with a dirt floor than a concrete floor. Likely more. Whatever moisture is absorbed by dirt can be released back out. Ventilation is your friend


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 22, 2017)

Never mind about the support. I was just thinking of the cost to build that type of shed. But my grandfather has just offered to buy the materials for the roof, including the sheet metal, so I'm quite happy. So the we will be building a shed like the burgundy one this summer for the goats:





I'm quite happy - things are finally falling into place. I know the breeder from whom I will buy my goats, and will now have one shed per type of animal. I am also very relieved that I found fencing at a reasonable price. They will have 9,600 sq.ft for 2 ND goats + 7 chickens, and they will be let out into the 8 acre field when we are home. I also received my registration membership papers! I am very happy with my tattoo letters and herd name, even though they won't be used for 2 years.

We have a "neigbour" two streets away who had 6 goats, and now they have about 10-12 (hard to count in the field). They have a lot of NDs, and I'm glad to see people who also have farm animals. Our land is in what I would call "estate countryside" instead of the more agricultural countryside. We are allowed farm animals and everything, but most only have cats and dogs. There are larger farms around, but all the other houses only cultivate their lawns . So far I've only seen that neighbour with goats, another one a few streets down with chickens, and another one with horses. Maybe we will insipre our neighbours to get a few chickens!


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## Bruce (Feb 24, 2017)

Pretty fancy goat digs!

You don't want them getting chickens, you want to sell your excess eggs to them.  I bet people living in "estate countryside" will pay a decent price for eggs from happy chickens that range.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 24, 2017)

That's true! There is an organic farm across the river from us (so maybe a 10 minute drive) and they sell their eggs for 5$. They also always run out. People actually pre-order the eggs, even though they have 100 hens (that is the maximum without purchasing quota here, and the quotas are way too expensive for smaller farms). Since they often don't have enough, we should be able to sell them as well.


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