# Hermaphrodite sheep ?



## Chickapalooza (May 31, 2021)

Yesterday we bought a group of sheep and one I believe is a hermaphrodite. Chimera, as she has been dubbed, has female genitalia, pees squatting down, and has no interest in breeding other ewes, and yet she has large horns, a mane, and is bigger than all the other ewes we got. she is a painted desert sheep.


chimera by herself

 chimera next to ram

chimera next to ewe


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## Baymule (May 31, 2021)

Well she is certainly interesting. So what are you going to do with her?


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## Chickapalooza (May 31, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Well she is certainly interesting. So what are you going to do with her?


Keep her for now. Depending upon how much it costs, we might get blood work done to get extra confirmation but she’s not normal. One of the suggestions I got was that it might be a hormonal imbalances but this feels too over the top to be it. She acts normal but does not look the part. Hermaphroditism is supposedly very rare in sheep so she’s pretty one of a kind.


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## mysunwolf (May 31, 2021)

It sounds hormonal to me. I'd be interested to hear anything you find out!


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## NEWCOMER (Jun 1, 2021)

I have four sheep two ewes to rams...one of which is castrated. 
...

I have never seen anything like this before.  But if she can breed and is healthy l would keep her. Still, let me know what you end up doing with her!


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## farmerjan (Jun 1, 2021)

The ewe is not that much bigger than the one she is standing next to from the angle I am looking at.  I'd like to see her next to several of the others for comparison.  We have White Texas Dall sheep.  Big horns like your Painted Mountain have.  We have had a couple females with more extensive developed horns, and some extra "mane" hair - we call them bibs -  
I would first see if she breeds.  If so, then there is no big deal.  If not, then it is time to either do testing or keep her as a "guardian/pasture ornament"....or cull her.
We tend to get better horns on the ram lambs out of the "better" horned females.  We have 3 bloodlines that we are trying to "make" a better animal.  One has fantastic horns and terrible feet, decent worm resistance;  One line has mediocre horns and very good feet, fair worm resistance;  One line has real good horns, decent feet,  and terrible worm resistance.  We are trying to breed the better worm/parasite resistance in with real good horns and good feet.  Long process.   Being in a "wetter" area than what these may be better suited to, the feet are important.  But since we sell the rams to a hunting preserve, got to have good heads.  And barber pole worms are the scourge here so we are trying to get them to be more resistant and not needing constant worming. 
They are attractive sheep.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 3, 2021)

Chickapalooza said:


> farmerjan said:
> 
> 
> > The ewe is not that much bigger than the one she is standing next to from the angle I am looking at. I'd like to see her next to several of the others for comparison. We have White Texas Dall sheep. Big horns like your Painted Mountain have. We have had a couple females with more extensive developed horns, and some extra "mane" hair - we call them bibs -
> > I would first see if she breeds. If so, then there is no big deal.


Like Farmerjan says, different sheep have different body types.  She has a feminine appearance in body.  Rams would have a much heavier thicker neck.  They also have a different body shape.  Can you get a picture of her with a true ram so we can see any similarities?  

Since you are just going by her outward appearance - size, horns and mane, I would *not* anticipate hermaphroditism.  Since you have not tried breeding her yet, that assumption is a bit premature.  If after a year of constant exposure to the ram and breeding, she does not conceive, then you might consider that possibility.  

Outward appearance is misleading  I know nothing about painted desert sheep.  Are you sure that your other ewe is not just on the small side?  She is a pretty ewe and looks completely feminine to me.     

Hermaphrodites are uncommon in any species  I have seen 2 definite hermaphrodite goats in 35 years.  I physically  examined them to determine the condition.  One belonged to my daughter and another to a different 4-Her.  Both has vestigial penises inside the vulva.  One had a testicle up in the body cavity.  They were both culled for meat.

*It is easy to check her to see if she is a hermaphrodite. * She should have 2 sets of genitalia.  

To examine her, you need to turn her up on her butt so you can examine her external sex organs closely. Although she has a vulva, pull the lips apart and often there will be a vestigial penis inside.   Don't get kicked. Often a hermaphrodite will have a testicle on one or both sides that are up inside the body cavity. You will be able to feel one inside the groin area on either side of where the buck's penis would have been. It will feel like a large swollen gland.  If there are no testicles to be felt, you can't find the vestigial penis, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY SHE WON'T BREED OR SETTLE then she might be a hermaphrodite.  Then you can do the blood work.  Since blood work will be expensive, I would go ahead and breed her and see if she produces lambs before doing any expensive tests.   

The true test of hermaphroditism is the inability to breed, conceive, or produce young.  Until then you have a very pretty ewe of good stature with a good set of horns.  She should produce pretty lambs.  And going by Farmerjan's experience - the horns on her ram lambs should be nice.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 3, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> has vestigial penises inside the vulva.


We had a goat we thought was a hermaphrodite, and the vet looked at her and sure enough, she had one of these .


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## Wyndsong (Jun 3, 2021)

Chickapalooza said:


> Yesterday we bought a group of sheep and one I believe is a hermaphrodite. Chimera, as she has been dubbed, has female genitalia, pees squatting down, and has no interest in breeding other ewes, and yet she has large horns, a mane, and is bigger than all the other ewes we got. she is a painted desert sheep.View attachment 85580chimera by herselfView attachment 85581 chimera next to ramView attachment 85582chimera next to ewe


Is she a  cross breed?  I'm looking at the Painted Desert Sheep Society website and they say that ewes that are cross breeds may get horns.  Whatever she is, she's a beauty!!  I may decide on getting this breed instead of the Katahdin when I'm ready for sheep!








						Painted Desert Sheep Society - BREED STANDARD
					

Breed Standards




					www.painteddesertsheepsociety.org


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## farmerjan (Jun 3, 2021)

@OneFineAcre ;  good to see you posting... how are things in your part of NC?   Going to show any goats this year?  Do you still have that one.... maybe "Zambia" ???? was her name.... She was getting up in age a bit but still was a real nice looking goat... and you know that I am not a big goat person... but she was nice....
Still got the "habit" kicked???? Been what 3 years?


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## Mini Horses (Jun 3, 2021)

Chimeras are due to twins combining into one, in egg stage.....there have been cases of mini horses, very rare.  Basically known cases did not have problems with repro, just DNA issues.   Actual blood and hair samples from one animal registered as different animals, different DNA results.  A few human chimeras have been identified.   So the offspring may not be identified as "theirs" with one of the two DNA the parent carried.   Crazy interesting.

UC Davis did some studies on it.  May still be able to find info on their sight.

Hermaphrodite is one that possesses both male and female organs.   Some can reproduce with dominate system.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 3, 2021)

farmerjan said:


> @OneFineAcre ;  good to see you posting... how are things in your part of NC?   Going to show any goats this year?  Do you still have that one.... maybe "Zambia" ???? was her name.... She was getting up in age a bit but still was a real nice looking goat... and you know that I am not a big goat person... but she was nice....
> Still got the "habit" kicked???? Been what 3 years?



Yeah, Zamia is still kicking at 11 years old.  She went Best in Show at a Youth Show only NC State Fair last fall.  She freshened with a single doe this year.

We showed goats last weekend at NC Dairy Goat Breeders Association, did pretty good too.  Saw Goat Whisperer too, but her mom Southern By Choice didn't make it.  We both got our share of rosettes.  

I smoked my last cigarette Sept 2, 2018 so it's coming up on 3 years.   Still not drinking alcohol either.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2021)

Nice to see you back.


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## Chickapalooza (Jun 9, 2021)

Mini Horses said:


> Chimeras are due to twins combining into one, in egg stage.....there have been cases of mini horses, very rare.  Basically known cases did not have problems with repro, just DNA issues.   Actual blood and hair samples from one animal registered as different animals, different DNA results.  A few human chimeras have been identified.   So the offspring may not be identified as "theirs" with one of the two DNA the parent carried.   Crazy interesting.
> 
> UC Davis did some studies on it.  May still be able to find info on their sight.
> 
> Hermaphrodite is one that possesses both male and female organs.   Some can reproduce with dominate system.


Sorry for the confusion lol. We decided upon that name since you can split it up into two names; Kai and Mira (male and female names) and iirc hermaphroditism can be caused by chimerism.


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## Chickapalooza (Jun 9, 2021)

Sorry I haven’t been replying. I thought I posted this on byc not byh. Anyways update; I know it might not look like it, but she is in fact bigger than the other ewes. Not by much but she is. What you were seeing was the quarantine pen so anymore pictures I get of chimera will only have 1 other ewe and 7-8 lambs as a comparison. We decided to leave her there for now since we don’t know if she’ll try and fight with another ram and we worry about overbreeding in our ram pen. Since we loaded all of the others into the trailer to get moved to another pen with a ram for breeding we were running all of them through a Shute and I was able to get a closer look at her and I think I saw a very small pair of testes I’m not entirely sure. I was also informed that she was showing interest in some of the ewes but no humping.


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## Chickapalooza (Jun 9, 2021)

Wyndsong said:


> Is she a  cross breed?  I'm looking at the Painted Desert Sheep Society website and they say that ewes that are cross breeds may get horns.  Whatever she is, she's a beauty!!  I may decide on getting this breed instead of the Katahdin when I'm ready for sheep!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They’re a bit of a rarity outside of Texas, but I do know that they can be located as far as Canada, Iowa, and somewhere else I can’t remember at the moment. There’s a couple of places I recommend such as diamond ridge ranch, R & R, darkehorse, arrow J, sapphire meadows,  and circle g6. I think all of those names are right... they are all in central Texas or at least pretty close. It’s pretty much the end of spring lambs so it might be awhile before you can get exactly what you want sheep wise but hey ya never know when you’ll get a good deal on something. All of those should have a Facebook or website, I hope this might be a help to you.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 10, 2021)

Chickapalooza said:


> Sorry I haven’t been replying. I thought I posted this on byc not byh. Anyways update; I know it might not look like it, but she is in fact bigger than the other ewes. Not by much but she is. What you were seeing was the quarantine pen so anymore pictures I get of chimera will only have 1 other ewe and 7-8 lambs as a comparison. We decided to leave her there for now since we don’t know if she’ll try and fight with another ram and we worry about overbreeding in our ram pen. Since we loaded all of the others into the trailer to get moved to another pen with a ram for breeding we were running all of them through a Shute and I was able to get a closer look at her and I think I saw a very small pair of testes I’m not entirely sure. I was also informed that she was showing interest in some of the ewes but no humping.



Our ewes often act rammish when they go into heat, they jump on each other, sniff each other, one even does the leg kick thing....they have all had lambs so I know they are females. 

Our Big ewe is the largest ewe I have ever seen, she is taller then our big ram which people are shocked to see the big ram. She is 100% a female but everyone thinks she is a ram when they see her just because of her size and a masculine head. I would give he a go with the other ewes to get bred. If she causes a problem you will have choices to make, she may surprise you and be a masculine but perfectly breedable female sheep. If you are really that concerned flip her on her butt and check her organs, no point in punishing her for something you think you may have seen or not seen when checking is fast and very easy. She is a gorgeous sheep and frankly the most attractive looking one in your pictures.

Her horns could be from a cross out or a throw back. Merinos, amercian blackbelly, rambouillet, and caspian mouflon can all have ewes with horns, jacobs and navajo-churro ewes have horns aka the breeds used to make desert sheep. Per the desert sheep standard ewes are 60-120lbs and 21-25" tall....thats a wide range so there would be size differences.

My giant ewe and our big ram are suffolk. Suffolk ewe are to be max 29" tall and weigh 194lbs, suffolk rams are to be max 31" tall and 275lbs. Due to people breeding for bigger and bigger sheep, they both blow those numbers out of the water and I dont mean oh by just a bit. Our ram is nearly 3 ft tall and our big ewe is taller then him by at least 2 inches, the ram and ewe both weigh over 300lbs. They dwarf our other suffolk. I'm just saying check her for sure before you write her off and miss a breeding.


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## farmerjan (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm with @misfitmorgan ; put her in the breeding pen and see if she will breed.  We have Dall ewe's with 6 " long horns.... and 2 of the ewe's are nearly as tall as the rams... the mature rams will go 250 lbs and it takes all my 6'6" son can do to hold them when we do horn measurements.  They also are not friendly because they go to hunting preserves and having them want to come up to you is just not what they need to be doing.  

I am not sure why you need to be stressing... even if she does decide to challenge the buck, he will win unless he is much smaller and immature.  So he will best her in a head butting and she will become more submissive or will stay away from the group.  I certainly would not waste the time in seeing if she will breed.  If she does then great, if she doesn't, then she is culled or kept for a lawn ornament to look at.


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## Wyndsong (Jun 10, 2021)

Chickapalooza said:


> They’re a bit of a rarity outside of Texas, but I do know that they can be located as far as Canada, Iowa, and somewhere else I can’t remember at the moment. There’s a couple of places I recommend such as diamond ridge ranch, R & R, darkehorse, arrow J, sapphire meadows,  and circle 6. I think all of those names are right... they are all in central Texas or at least pretty close. It’s pretty much the end of spring lambs so it might be awhile before you can get exactly what you want sheep wise but hey ya never know when you’ll get a good deal on something. All of those should have a Facebook or website, I hope this might be a help to you.


yes thank you!  It'll be a while before we're ready for sheep.  Just trying to learn as much as I can about all of the breeds and how to take care of them properly.


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## Chickapalooza (Jun 11, 2021)

I


Wyndsong said:


> yes thank you!  It'll be a while before we're ready for sheep.  Just trying to learn as much as I can about all of the breeds and how to take care of them properly.


I’d look a little into all of those places and decide what you want in terms of color and pattern. Once that is decided getting exactly what you want is much easier


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## Ridgetop (Jun 12, 2021)

If you did actually get a hermaphrodite, contact the breeder you bought from and ask about getting a replacement ewe.  You will probably have to supply a vet certificate but at least you dcan see about replacing a useless cull with a breeding ewe.

Put her in the breeding pen and see if she breeds and lambs.


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## Baymule (Jun 12, 2021)

Wyndsong said:


> Is she a  cross breed?  I'm looking at the Painted Desert Sheep Society website and they say that ewes that are cross breeds may get horns.  Whatever she is, she's a beauty!!  I may decide on getting this breed instead of the Katahdin when I'm ready for sheep!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Watch Craigslist. There is someone local with Painted Desert sheep.


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