# Opinions on breeding and buying puppies?



## Carrosaur (Jan 25, 2016)

I am very active in the Pit Bull community as I'm looking to get one in the near future! And when I say Pit Bull I mean the American Pit Bull Terrier breed, not the generic term "pitbull" that blankets several similar looking dogs.

In the "Pit Bull world" breeding is not looked down upon as long as the dog is registered with a reputable kennel club (United Kennel Club, American Dog Breeders Association, etc) and is proven in conformation (champion) and in sports or work (agility, weight pull, hog hunting, etc). 

How does this forum in particular look at breeding the Great Pyrenees? Should they be champions in the ring? Working dogs? Both? 

I bought Moose from a working farm, he is not registered but does have a written pedigree and comes from a very long line of livestock guardian dogs. Many people told me to go to the shelter but you may not necessarily find exactly what you need in a rescue, the good thing about pure bred puppies is that you know the parents, grandparents, etc, you can expect certain temperaments, breed out certain genetic health problems, and many many other pros. 

I would love a solid discussion!


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## Latestarter (Jan 26, 2016)

From a simplistic view: The Great Pyr and other working dogs such as the Kangal (Anatolian Shepard) were developed, bred, reared, trained for hundreds and even thousands of years for a sole purpose; they are working dogs. They are not historically "pets". They aren't "wired" to be pets. The reason so many of these dogs are now in rescues is because "designer folks" want "designer dogs" because they are "big" or "powerful" or "pretty" and get these dogs for the wrong reasons, and expect them to be something they were specifically bred NOT to be. It's a shame really... and a terrible waste.

The trouble with rescue dogs is there's no way of really knowing just how messed up they are... or what their background is. That's further compounded by many shelters not allowing these dogs to be placed on working farms, but insist that they be re-placed back into a "pet" setting, where they are doomed to fail... the reason they're in the shelter in the first place.

I think there are more breeders now, that are specifically breeding these animals to be what they were originally bred to be, and specifically breeding for LGD traits. The pups are evaluated for specific traits before being placed with new owners. And they carefully screen prospective buyers to ensure their working dogs are NOT being purchased as a "pet", or by folks who have no idea what they are doing and will ruin the dog.

I wanted an LGD, and when I bought Mel, I knew he wasn't a purebred, but a cross of (IMHO) the top 2 LGD breeds, 50/50 Anatolian/Pyr. He was bred to be a working dog from proven working dog stock (dad pure Pyr, mom pure Toli) and because I wouldn't immediately have animals for him to guard, I purchased him because he was evaluated as a cross between companion and LGD.

So, I believe if you intend to breed pure bred dogs, they should not only conform physically to breed standards, but should also be bred to breed performance standards. A retriever should retrieve, an LGD should BE an LGD. I do NOT believe that an LGD should be bred with a "herding" breed as the two purposes are counter productive. My 2 cents.


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## Latestarter (Jan 26, 2016)

multi post


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 26, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> The trouble with rescue dogs is there's no way of really knowing just how messed up they are... or what their background is. That's further compounded by many shelters not allowing these dogs to be placed on working farms, but insist that they be re-placed back into a "pet" setting, where they are doomed to fail... the reason they're in the shelter in the first place.
> 
> ...So, I believe if you intend to breed pure bred dogs, they should not only conform physically to breed standards, but should also be bred to breed performance standards. A retriever should retrieve, an LGD should BE an LGD. I do NOT believe that an LGD should be bred with a "herding" breed as the two purposes are counter productive. My 2 cents.



I very much agree.  For my house pets, I rescue young dogs or pups.  But for my livestock care, I want to work with that dog as a pup and with my livestock, want to know that the parents were working dogs, and will not gamble on it working it.

And while crossing actual LGD breeds can make for a great working animal, I do not understand why one would want a livestock dog crossed with a herding dog.  They are both good animals, have purpose and usefulness, but work in very different ways.  It makes as much sense to me as crossing a small terrier with a lab or a greyhound.  It kind of defeat the purpose of years of breeding for specific traits.

Show stock and registrations for LDGs?  Well, if the show breeder actually is using them as working dogs and is concerned with that ability above all else, registration and show worthiness are just a bonus.  I dunno though--my working dogs are working and I can't see that I would have time for them to do their jobs, and train/stay pretty for shows.   I would wonder how much experience the dogs actually have with guarding livestock if they are away for shows all of the time.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 26, 2016)

Kind of related and I think interesting.

A former member of this forum that I haven't seen post in a while but that I follow on facebook just got an Armenian Gampr.

Not sure where it came from but it was outside the US.  Last pics they posted it was in LA being checked by vet before continuing down to Alabama.


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## samssimonsays (Jan 26, 2016)

I am for breeding for a purpose, whether that be a healthy breed standard (I do not like the mind set or ethics behind many show ring breeders personally), a strong working dog or those who just want a dog as a pet. I am also one whose heart and soul is in the rescue community. 

I am one who likes to know the parents, their temperaments and exactly what I am getting. Our Pyrenees/ Saint Bernard came from a family who wanted to raise several pups up from the beginning for their farm and crossed their dogs. He is a very good dog but NOT LGD at the moment but we didn't get him for that, he is a slow to develop type fella. Our Collie came from working dogs. The lady carefully selected her dogs for generations and it shows. THey are healthy, mild mannered, SMART and oh so gentle. It reflects into our girl. We had planned to breed our collie to another healthy collie to improve the health of the breed along with creating amazing family or working dogs.

Sadly, These two accidentally had puppies even though they were not supposed to and herders/LGD's are a bad mix. BUT, the pups are being placed with good PET families, having no issues in potty training, already know basic commands and so much more. The cross was an accident, the result was some of the best puppies anyone who meets them have ever encountered. Fearless, loving, smart, intuitive, gentle and laid back. Potty trained by 6 weeks old and sitting to command by 7 weeks. Everyone wants one and is asking if we plan on having another litter. The outcome we had was favorable with mom being 60 pounds and dad 150 and the pups are all well mannered, smart and easy going but we will not be putting these mixes into the general population again for the breeds sake and the health of our female. Now that these pups are going to homes it is coming out more and more that these folks are looking for this specific combination of dog.... dubbing it "the perfect dog". I share with them why it is not wise to cross them and why they do not see them crossed often and they understand now.


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## Carrosaur (Jan 26, 2016)

Thank you for the replies!

I agree that in the case of the Great Pyrenees they absolutely need to be proven LGDs. I think I personally will never buy another puppy that is not from proven working lines or champion conformation lines, also never without genetic health testing.



Samantha drawz said:


> I am for breeding for a purpose, whether that be a healthy breed standard (I do not like the mind set or ethics behind many show ring breeders personally), a strong working dog or those who just want a dog as a pet. I am also one whose heart and soul is in the rescue community.
> 
> I am one who likes to know the parents, their temperaments and exactly what I am getting. Our Pyrenees/ Saint Bernard came from a family who wanted to raise several pups up from the beginning for their farm and crossed their dogs. He is a very good dog but NOT LGD at the moment but we didn't get him for that, he is a slow to develop type fella. Our Collie came from working dogs. The lady carefully selected her dogs for generations and it shows. THey are healthy, mild mannered, SMART and oh so gentle. It reflects into our girl. We had planned to breed our collie to another healthy collie to improve the health of the breed along with creating amazing family or working dogs.
> 
> Sadly, These two accidentally had puppies even though they were not supposed to and herders/LGD's are a bad mix. BUT, the pups are being placed with good PET families, having no issues in potty training, already know basic commands and so much more. The cross was an accident, the result was some of the best puppies anyone who meets them have ever encountered. Fearless, loving, smart, intuitive, gentle and laid back. Potty trained by 6 weeks old and sitting to command by 7 weeks. Everyone wants one and is asking if we plan on having another litter. The outcome we had was favorable with mom being 60 pounds and dad 150 and the pups are all well mannered, smart and easy going but we will not be putting these mixes into the general population again for the breeds sake and the health of our female. Now that these pups are going to homes it is coming out more and more that these folks are looking for this specific combination of dog.... dubbing it "the perfect dog". I share with them why it is not wise to cross them and why they do not see them crossed often and they understand now.



Good for you for not wanting to breed this combination again. I think breeding two different breeds of different groups is a ridiculous thing and should never, ever, ever, happen. There is absolutely no point.

 Now I will not say that ethically breeding pure bred, well mannered, genetically sound puppies takes up room from shelter animals, because honestly if I were not able to get a pure bred dog, I just would not get any dog. Will I continue to foster dogs for the rest of my life? Of course, but I will never intentionally go out and adopt a shelter dog because you just have no idea what you're getting.


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## Latestarter (Jan 26, 2016)

I have considered and checked into adopting, but will never "adopt" a shelter dog for a number of reasons... 

Probably the #1 reason is that the cost of doing so is ridiculous. Most are mutts and when all is said and done it's more expensive to "adopt" a shelter animal than it is to buy a reasonably priced pure bred dog... And in most cases you have absolutely no idea what it is that your purchasing, aside from the fact that the original owners had "some problem" with it, or it wouldn't be in the shelter in the first place.

The #2 reason is that you go into the purchase/adoption being treated like an animal cruelty convict and needing to justify your existence to the shelter before they will "allow" you to adopt one of their mutts. 

The #3 reason is because virtually all shelters require the animal be spayed or neutered (to prevent further shelter animals from coming into existence - after already putting you through background checks and personal monitoring to make sure you're an acceptable adoption candidate), when this may or may not be in the best interest of the dog or the potential owner.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 26, 2016)

Carrosaur said:


> How does this forum in particular look at breeding the Great Pyrenees? Should they be champions in the ring? Working dogs? Both?


There are a few breeders of Pyrs and a few Anatolian breeders that do have working dogs and do show as well. Far and few between, and there are many reasons for this. With the Pyr, most show breeders LOATHE the dogs being utilized as LGD's. They feel LGD owners are cruel, do not care for the dogs etc.
Now, understand there is some merit to their objections. First, the first dogs brought here and the man that brought them theorizes that in order to be good working dogs there should be a hands off, no eye contact etc methodology. It not only is an idiotic method but also has created the issues we see today with these dogs. There are well known breeders today that charge thousands for their dogs that really still have little clue. I will end that there.



Carrosaur said:


> I bought Moose from a working farm, he is not registered but does have a written pedigree and comes from a very long line of livestock guardian dogs


Most acquiring LGD's do not care about "papers". That is the pet and show world and for those that either want to impress, think it actually means something, or somehow think they are getting a "better" dog because of it.

Some will import- this baffles me... there are so many fine dogs here in the states. Why?  Some want "rare" breeds... then think they will breed and make $ because they are imports. LOL All that has happened is they have brought a breed in with little to no genetic diversity to breed with in the states as well as the rest of the world knows how Americans are... truth is WE do not get the best stock- we get the stock they wouldn't breed. That is the truth! I have seen this for MANY years. There may be a handful that were acquired that actually are great dogs butthat is the exception NOT the rule.

Recently I contacted several Kuvasz breeders. I was hoping to start my search and within 3-4 years bring in a Kuvasz. 
We need a shaking my head emoticon here!
I won't go into the details but I can tell you I won't be getting one in the states. The breeders are trying to breed for an "easier" dog... IOW breed out the guardian dog in them.   Their idea of what they would place as a guardian dog was laughable- basically it was the "wild" dogs that wouldn't be good pets. There is no understanding of what to even look for. Sadly this is not one or two breeders...



Latestarter said:


> I think there are more breeders now, that are specifically breeding these animals to be what they were originally bred to be, and specifically breeding for LGD traits. The pups are evaluated for specific traits before being placed with new owners. And they carefully screen prospective buyers to ensure their working dogs are NOT being purchased as a "pet", or by folks who have no idea what they are doing and will ruin the dog.
> 
> I wanted an LGD, and when I bought Mel, I knew he wasn't a purebred, but a cross of (IMHO) the top 2 LGD breeds, 50/50 Anatolian/Pyr. He was bred to be a working dog from proven working dog stock (dad pure Pyr, mom pure Toli) and because I wouldn't immediately have animals for him to guard, I purchased him because he was evaluated as a cross between companion and LGD.



@Latestarter  that is the problem-  there are NOT more breeders now that evaluate or assess. They do not evaluate, they do not screen as well as they should. 

Personally I loathe when people say they have a "LGD" when they don't. If it is not a LGD breed or a LGD crossed with a LGD breed than it is not a LGD BREED. As well as the LGD is really a "TITLE" earned by the breed.  Many refer to their LGD yet it isn't it is some bizarre cross with whatever. The "L" in LGD is the key- LIVESTOCK guardian.  Sorry but a 45 pound dog is not a lgd will never be a lgd and is in no way shape or form a LGD breed of any sort. Far too many "accidents" are happening with herding dogs (no offense to those that had accidental breeding) and this is really bad for the lgd breeds.

In the LGD world LGDxLGD= LGD
They are not mutts as in the pet world.
I have Anatolians, Great Pyrenees, and Toli/Pyr crosses.
My best dog a Male Pyr was bred to my best F which was an Anatolian. I planned and waited and wanted this litter for 3 years!  
It wasn't just throwing 2 dogs together. They were selected for a reason. Any breeding should be well thought out. 

Unfortunately many do breed their LGD's and at one time I supported and tried to help others understand what to look for and would try to teach how to evaluate. I no longer do this. I will as a paid consultant. The "free" advice has really only enabled others to willy nilly breed whatever...  there is a great deal of responsibility in breeding dogs- it isn't the same as livestock. 

April 2015 I started an article about breeding the LGD, unfortunately I got very sick was hospitalized 2x in a month and time went by... as time went by I added tweaked etc. I have not published the article because at the time there were so many people having litters of pups- ( not necessarily here but other places as well) and I was very concerned that someone may take things I put in the article as a personal attack etc. So I have held the article... and of course we have many more having litters.

The article is 10 pages. 

Grouped and categorized.

I could go on and on of course and point out that just because both parents are working doesn't mean every pup will be good.
The majority of dogs that fail are direct results of their owners.
There are many dogs that DESPITE their owners still succeed.

My biggest question is if  you cannot problem solve, cannot evaluate behavior and cannot possibly support the person purchasing a pup from you then why the hell would you breed a dog? These people run to big LGD sites and get the worst advice from other ignorant people who also know nothing.

Several people I see on FB are on their 4-5 th dog... because all the ones beforehand "didn't work out"... hmmmm.... then I see the same ignorant way they are training them... with improperly used drags/toggles on each dog they had... and guess what- their new one has it too. SMH! 

I guess that is enough... you can see I clearly have a passion for these incredible dogs. 

One day I will put the article up...


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 26, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> There are a few breeders of Pyrs and a few Anatolian breeders that do have working dogs and do show as well. Far and few between, and there are many reasons for this. With the Pyr, most show breeders LOATHE the dogs being utilized as LGD's. They feel LGD owners are cruel, do not care for the dogs etc.
> Now, understand there is some merit to their objections. First, the first dogs brought here and the man that brought them theorizes that in order to be good working dogs there should be a hands off, no eye contact etc methodology. It not only is an idiotic method but also has created the issues we see today with these dogs. There are well known breeders today that charge thousands for their dogs that really still have little clue. I will end that there.
> 
> 
> ...


Ouch !


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## Southern by choice (Jan 26, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> Ouch !



OFA it is horribly sad. Most people just don't know the whole picture. You as well as most would be appalled.

Think about it this way...all the calls I get are* about dogs that someone got from someone else who bred two dogs together* yet they can't help the person they sold the dog to. I NEVER mind helping the person... it isn't their fault and it is not the dogs fault. I do mind when I see breeders breed a bitch 5 times in 2 years. I do mind when I see LGD pups weighing 10-12 lbs at 8 weeks... I do mind when someone who at first wants to learn how to do things the right way but once they realize it is actual work and that the reality is it is so easy to sell an 8 week old dog and they didn't have to do anything so they abandon the doing it right because why bother? When they can sell em just as easy. This is why so many in rescues, so many shot, so many digging, chasing, running away etc. I do mind when someone says the dog is a purebred pyr... the pups are all brown. Not possible. Who knows what the father was. 
I try to explain that most "breeders" just don't have the experience or knowledge in evaluating... no need to disparage the breeder. Better to just educate the owner and help them where they are. At the same time MOST will not do what is necessary to correct the mistakes made. People are lazy and will do whatever they can to do the least they can. So they get rid of one dog and justify it by saying well we are going to start over and get another dog. 

Think about your upcoming litter and how much you love your dogs... now imagine some knucklehead shooting bee bees at the pup because it is chasing... or shocking the crap out of it... chaining it, putting  it out with livestock far too aggressive and that pup getting killed.  
Your heart will be broken.  I know you are a softy with your dogs. Once you raise a litter of pups you will see... it is hard to let go. You will love each one so much!


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## Carrosaur (Jan 27, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> There are a few breeders of Pyrs and a few Anatolian breeders that do have working dogs and do show as well. Far and few between, and there are many reasons for this. With the Pyr, most show breeders LOATHE the dogs being utilized as LGD's. They feel LGD owners are cruel, do not care for the dogs etc.
> Now, understand there is some merit to their objections. First, the first dogs brought here and the man that brought them theorizes that in order to be good working dogs there should be a hands off, no eye contact etc methodology. It not only is an idiotic method but also has created the issues we see today with these dogs. There are well known breeders today that charge thousands for their dogs that really still have little clue. I will end that there.
> 
> 
> ...



Can't wait to read the article! 

Moose is my first LGD, although now I don't know if you would call him one because he's tiny! But he guards the geese very well, and I think if he were bigger I would try to find a female who has experience with poultry, but when the time comes I think I'll look for a new puppy. Its hard for me to find anyone having puppies that already has birds on their property.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 2, 2016)

Carrosaur said:


> Can't wait to read the article!
> 
> Moose is my first LGD, although now I don't know if you would call him one because he's tiny! But he guards the geese very well, and I think if he were bigger I would try to find a female who has experience with poultry, but when the time comes I think I'll look for a new puppy. Its hard for me to find anyone having puppies that already has birds on their property.



Poultry issues are generally much later. I wouldn't worry about them not having poultry if you are getting an 8-10 week old pup. It is different if the dog is acquired as a trained dog but has never been exposed.


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## Blue Sky (Feb 9, 2016)

Roughly a year ago a coyote grabbed a lamb in broad daylight in front of my husband and myself to his astonishment. He posted (another site) and in doing so noted our rescued lgd was asleep in another paddock. I had placed her there, a mistake I regretted of course. What followed on that site was an unexpected and vitriolic denunciation of rescued lgds, rescue organizations and a not too thinly disguised insult to us personally in spite of our newness to the chat group. Apparently if we weren't willing to shoot our rescued dog dead on the spot and replace it with a superior specimen (bred and sold by the site leader) well there was just no hope for us. presently I have five rescued dogs all working with my flock. I rotate them and still have some poultry issues w one but he'll grow out of it. Rescued dogs do take more work and if you have a healthy, experienced alpha lgd it's easier. I recommend them if you have time and patience and most importantly a good rescue organization to work with. By all means consider breeding but do tons of homework and know that many dogs don't end up in good homes. Excuse me if this is off topic.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 9, 2016)

Blue Sky said:


> Roughly a year ago a coyote grabbed a lamb in broad daylight in front of my husband and myself to his astonishment. He posted (another site) and in doing so noted our rescued lgd was asleep in another paddock. I had placed her there, a mistake I regretted of course. What followed on that site was an unexpected and vitriolic denunciation of rescued lgds, rescue organizations and a not too thinly disguised insult to us personally in spite of our newness to the chat group. Apparently if we weren't willing to shoot our rescued dog dead on the spot and replace it with a superior specimen (bred and sold by the site leader) well there was just no hope for us. presently I have five rescued dogs all working with my flock. I rotate them and still have some poultry issues w one but he'll grow out of it. Rescued dogs do take more work and if you have a healthy, experienced alpha lgd it's easier. I recommend them if you have time and patience and most importantly a good rescue organization to work with. By all means consider breeding but do tons of homework and know that many dogs don't end up in good homes. Excuse me if this is off topic.


So sorry you had to deal with those knuckleheads.
Now do you understand why I loathe the LGD forum sites?
I will say many LGD's from rescues don't work out but it is usually because they have no one to really evaluate and work with the dogs. There are also alot of LGD breed crossed with NON Lgd- breed and that is a disaster. 
Personally I just don't have much respect for those that breed LGD's without years of not just experience, but knowledge of training and troubleshooting.  There are only a few and I mean a few that I know that may not have much knowledge but they would bend over backwards to stand by their clients and work with them.* If a breeder isn't willing to take ANY dog back for ANY reason... run like the wind! *
I know people mess up their dogs and some do all the wrong stuff, don't follow instructions and end up with a dog that isn't doing well... but I know I would take any of my dogs back at any time for any reason. PERIOD!


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## Blue Sky (Feb 9, 2016)

SBC your advice has been very helpful. It's good to know people like you are out there for support. Thanks.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

Thank you Southern for what you said!  I sometimes feel that I am being too forceful when I say the same things!  Now I am going to be forceful here again, and at length.  In another post B & B Happy Goats said I am passionate about this subject, and I am.  It is worth it if it will help prospective LGD owners get the right dog.  This is not a post to attack LGD breeders out there.  I want to put forth what prospective buyers should be looking for instead of simply buying the first puppy they see.  All LGD puppies are cute, not all LGD puppies will become great guardians.

When I was younger I showed a lot of dogs and bred a few.   I know how show people can eventually change a breed to remove its hunting, guarding, herding instincts in order to get a certain "type" and "look" in conformation.  Popular breeders who do a lot of advertising can change the breed to resemble their type.  The Standard of Perfection in all species is there for a reason.  Size, body length, ribbing, body capacity, udder attachments, pigment, correctness of angulation, are all different requirements for different uses - dairy, meat, and in dogs - hunting, herding, and guarding etc.

Conformation correctness in livestock guardian dogs is critical.  Without the correct structure they will not be able to run after or fight off predators, have stamina, correct dentition, heavy coat, thick loose skin to endure predator attacks, etc.  Even more important is their mind and instinct to guard their flock or herd.  This instinct _can be bred out_, but without this instinct, even LGD breed members are worthless.  Instinct cannot be taught, the training we talk about is only to hone the natural instinct, give us control over the dog, and help the LGD fulfill its potential. 

There are lots of "breeders" of livestock guardian dogs out there BUT not so many good, trustworthy, reputable breeders.  Some do not know (or care) about testing for genetic or hereditary flaws in their dog.  Testing and OFA x-rays are expensive, and these flaws are not apparent until several years down the road. The backyard breeder expecting to make a profit on their puppies don't waste their money making sure their dogs are clear of these flaws. Many do not understand the traditional use of these dogs, have no idea of what the dogs are capable, and no idea of how to train them.  _An untrained, unsocialized, livestock guardian dog can be a dangerous thing_.

Lets face it, LGDs have become trendy.  Everyone wants one whether they need one or not.  Some people want a great big powerful dog that makes the owner feel macho.  Others because they think they need one, or have been told they should have one, because they have a half acre lot and a couple of chickens.  (Livestock guardians are really not poultry guardians, they have to be specifically taught and some never do like poultry.)  A breed that becomes trendy encourages people to breed whether the dog is worth perpetuating or not because they believe there is money in it.

Many puppies are advertised on Craigslist - another place I do _not_ recommend buying puppies  The owners of the litter  advertises "guardian dog puppies" at 8 weeks.  After all they are a guardian breed and "everyone says they will work instinctually".  Most of these puppies have never been really placed with livestock.  The next buyers do the same thing, thinking to recoup their investment.  Now you have lots of puppies being sold with little or no ability out there.  Many of those puppies will never be properly trained.  After dumping the puppy into the field and leaving it there with  no training, the dog will be blamed when it chases a lamb (puppy behavior), gets out of the pasture (improper fencing), bites a visitor (unsocialized), or cannot be handled (untrained), etc.  The breeder will not give any advice to the new owners, because the breeder has no clue why it is happening and really doesn't care.  He or she has already cashed the check and is busy selling the next litter.  And another round of rescue dogs appears.

Rescue is sad, but I do _not_ recommend rescue dogs when people are buying or obtaining their first LGD.  No offence to those that have rescue dogs, some can be retrained but most have been sent to rescue because of problems with their temperament, lack of training, physical faults making them useless as a working dog, abuse, etc.   There are some success stories - Baymule worked for 2 years to train her Trip and has done a good job.  BlueSky has been successful but had to work at it too.  The real problem with rescue is that you do not know the background of the dogs, whether they are even purebred, and even if purebred, whether they are from working parents and grandparents.  Many rescues do not test the dogs for temperament problems, let alone ability to work.

Buying a dog with a show pedigree is no guarantee either, although you might pay more depending on how many champions are "in the pedigree".  The number of champions in a pedigree means _nothing_, but sellers will point them out to innocent buyers as an incentive to buy their puppies.  Winning champions are bred to _lots_ of bitches.  The normal ratio of champion pups per litter is 1.5.  Since the average lgd litter ranges from 8 to 12 puppies, that leaves 6-10 dogs that are not worth showing.  With the Cragslist or newspaper advertiser, your litter will probably be out of one of those mediocre pups.

Show dogs that are active in the circuit have usually not been with livestock enough to know whether they are any good or not.  In addition, sharp tempered breeds like the Anatolian and Ovcharka are dismissed from the ring if they growl at the judge.  The typical Anatolian does not welcome strangers, much less ones that poke at them and pry open their jaws to check dentition.  That leaves the mild tempered dogs to be raised and trained just for the show ring.  Winning show LGDs are often advertised as "true working dogs" because their owners have a few sheep.  But since these winning dogs spend most of their lives on the circuit living with the handler, how many sheep do you thing those dogs are guarding?  Show Pyrenees carry a much heavier coat than is desirable in a working dog.  It looks great in the ring, but a soft fuzzy coat is really hard on a dog that has to work in briars.  A Pyrenees working coat has less fur on the lower legs, has guard hairs that shed water and mud, instead of a giant furball.  Show breeders breed for heavier coats that will look better in the ring and disguise physical  conformation faults.

Having given all this depressing information, let's go on to the positive.  There are careful, reputable, honest breeders out there.  Reputable breeders will stand behind their dogs' health, temperament, and working ability - provided that you follow their instructions with regard to training, feeding, vet care, etc.  That means that they have tested for genetic problems, have made sure that their breeding stock has reliable temperaments, good conformation, are healthy and have been vaccinated and wormed.  They will answer all your questions, have a contract requiring you to return the dog to them if you have to give it up, and will pressure you to call them at any time so they can help you with training issues.  Often the breeder will have restrictions on breeding rights.  If you do not call the breeder as soon as you get home with the puppy, the breeder will be calling you to make sure that everything is ok.

How do you find these honest, caring breeders?   First, read everything you can by everyone you can about livestock guardian dogs.  There are good LGD books out there - The Way of The Pack is a good one, and is available on Amazon along with several others.  Remember that beliefs have changed - back in the 80's we were told never to interact with the dog since it would impair his bonding with the sheep or goats.  Now we know that family bonding and socialization is key to a well developed temperament in a LGD.  Training is necessary depending on the age of the dog.  Word of mouth, recommendations by satisfied owners of their puppies can put you in touch with a good breeder.  if you are looking for a specific breed, start going through the various websites of known breeders.  Read up on that breed.  Talk to the breeders of that breed and take notes.  Mention names of other breeders you have contacted.  You will get a feel for the breeders that are respected.  Find a breeder that doesn't try to rush you off the phone or make a quick decision. You want a breeder that takes the time to answer all your questions.  Once you have narrowed it down to one or two, call them several times as more questions come up.  A good breeder will not rush into promising you a puppy - they will be more careful than you in selecting the future owners of their dogs.  Remember that "take back" clause in the contract?  The breeder wants to place the appropriate puppy with the appropriate owner.  The good breeder wants the puppy to be successful and the owner to be successful with the puppy. 

Don't rush into buying a dog.  You may have to be on a waiting list.  You can keep your animals safe by securing them inside a building at night.  The time you take to make sure you have a good breeder and dog will be time well spent.  To paraphrase "Buy in haste, repent at leisure". 

Last thing is price.  This is where many people recoil in horror and decide to buy a cheap puppy.  Raising a litter of 8-12 large breed puppies is not cheap.  The pregnant and lactating bitch eats voraciously.  The puppies gobble food like ravening hyenas.  They will go through over 50 lbs. of expensive kibble in less than a week as they grow.  Vaccinations and worming are not cheap, and must be done in a schedule.  If it is summer, flea control treatments will have to be started.  In the southern states heartworm meds have to be administered.  By the time the litter is ready to go to new homes, the breeder will have several thousand in expenses in the puppies.   This does not count the amount it costs to keep the male dog or pay a stud fee.  And don't forget that the breeder has been without her flock guardian for at least 6-8 weeks, and has been caring for the puppies for several months now.  The puppy should be at least10-12 weeks old when you bring it home.  If you want a puppy that is older and has been started in livestock training it will be more expensive.  It may be worth it to you since the breeder is doing the training, and don't forget the extra feed going into the puppy.  Puppies bred and raised by good breeders are a labor of love, not a money maker.  Ask SouthernbyChoice)

To decide if the dog is worth it, first take the cost of the dog and divide it by 10.  This is how long a well cared for LGD can guard the homestead property with normal coyote and stray dog predators.  If you have regular cougar, bear, or wolf pack predation, you will need at least 2 or 3 LGDs.  Most of us start with one dog.  If and when you get another, the older one will help you train the new puppy.  Once you have the annual cost of the purchase price of the dog, you can decide if it will be worth it.  What are your livestock losses worth?  5 years ago our old Pyr died of cancer.  We decided to try going without a guardian dog.  In 1 1/2 years we lost $3,500.00 in sheep and lambs before we found our new flock guardian.  Rika was 18 months old, completely trained, cost $2,500.00 (I had to take a couple of steadying breaths at the price) and we drove to Texas from California to get her.  She is almost 7 now, has trained our 3 year old male, and is training another puppy as I write.  She is worth every penny and the best guardian dog we have ever owned. 

Most LGDs can be found much cheaper, especially if you buy a puppy.  On the other hand, a puppy will need protection from predators until it is about 6 months old, and will need training from you.  Decide what you can pay, find a good, honest, and caring breeder, make sure they will give you help and back up every step of the way.  Then once you have your perfect, trained, livestock guardian dog, pay it forward by helping others with their LGDs.


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## wolf (Apr 10, 2019)

I've been MIA for awhile, I know. This thread caught my attention. As the elder of you know, I'm disabled, retired, living on a fixed income, and currently raising poultry and sheep to put meat and eggs in my pantry. I've had livestock folks I've dealt with recommend a LGD for a number of years. I haven't had the extra cash for one. My younger Labrador _hates _the local vixen, and while she's educated to help me with my problems, she also spends time in the pasture running off hawks and foxes looking for a free chicken-dinner. My stock are never outdoors when I'm on a supply-run, so she does her primary mobility-assistance job when we go for supplies. My old, retired SD, is now 13 and nearing her last months - don't know when she'll decide she's OK with leaving me and cross the Bridge. Been waiting till she goes before LGD-hunting. There will be space in my economics for a new pup after she leaves. I've educated _all _my dogs, and it's something that comes natural to me - don't understand how folks can't read 'em, myself. Probably why I'm mostly a Loner.
I also know why in present times it sucks thousands of dollars out of a breeder to produce a pup, and is why I haven't bred my younger Lab. Her breeder has a "breeding clause" in our contract, but I just can't afford the conformation tests at this point - and don't have the physical stamina with my ailment to spend days at Va. Tech for the insemination-process. The state of Virginia makes it a lot more expensive and difficult to breed a dog than Florida - where my breeder lives - because they believe they're discouraging "backyard breeders" by these tactics. They're making it so one has to be truly rich to breed dogs. Responsible breeders with good-quality dogs wanting to produce just ONE litter, find they can't - if they're making less than six-figures annually.
What happens is - you end up with breeders who just don't bother with the medical tests or the state-fees and requirements - and breed their dogs to whoever will agree to it... causing more "problem" pups. The "controls" the bureaucrats place, instead have an opposite effect.
I also avoid shelters, because one can so often end up with someone else's problems to try and correct - and some dogs are so ingrained that fixing in dang-near impossible. Better a new baby I can educate correctly from the start, than a deliquent I have to repair. I also believe older dogs help immensely, with showing pups proper behavior around other critters in their new homes, and how to work a job they're assigned.
So - there's birds running my field, and new lambs out there, too - and Connie's out there keeping an eye on things while I work on Spring Cleaning at the house. I know I'm gonna have to change things eventually, but I'm gonna need help sometime in the future. Been leaning towards Maremma... still early...


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## Ridgetop (Apr 10, 2019)

There are many good breeds out there.  We all have our favorites.  Rarely a good older dog will turn up for placement, but normally a very good dog will not leave its home ranch unless there is a death (like our dear Latestarter's Mel).  I agree with you though about rescue dogs and other people's problems.  Someone ruins a good dog and it ends up in rescue and while it could be retrained, that would take a long time and lots of work that may not be an option.  My friend and breeder, Erick, just took back a young 18 month old bitch that his co-breeder had sold to a client.  The dog received no training, no socialization, and was allowed to be aggressive to the ultra passive older Anatolian on the property.  She was also allowed to be food aggressive too!  No training at all and the owner wondered "what was wrong with her"!  Erick had told his co-breeder to take her back 8 months ago, but the owner was a friend and she kept putting it off.  Finally the dog became too much for the owner to handle and long story short, Erick took her back.  He has spent several months working with her.  He has also utilized his other dogs in the training process and is finally seeing some progress.  A good dog almost ruined.  If Erick was not such an ethical breeder the dog would have ended up in rescue or the shelter instead of being retrained in order to have a new life.


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## wolf (Apr 11, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> There are many good breeds out there.  We all have our favorites.  Rarely a good older dog will turn up for placement, but normally a very good dog will not leave its home ranch unless there is a death (like our dear Latestarter's Mel).  I agree with you though about rescue dogs and other people's problems.  Someone ruins a good dog and it ends up in rescue and while it could be retrained, that would take a long time and lots of work that may not be an option.  My friend and breeder, Erick, just took back a young 18 month old bitch that his co-breeder had sold to a client.  The dog received no training, no socialization, and was allowed to be aggressive to the ultra passive older Anatolian on the property.  She was also allowed to be food aggressive too!  No training at all and the owner wondered "what was wrong with her"!  Erick had told his co-breeder to take her back 8 months ago, but the owner was a friend and she kept putting it off.  Finally the dog became too much for the owner to handle and long story short, Erick took her back.  He has spent several months working with her.  He has also utilized his other dogs in the training process and is finally seeing some progress.  A good dog almost ruined.  If Erick was not such an ethical breeder the dog would have ended up in rescue or the shelter instead of being retrained in order to have a new life.


Sad story! Many folks just don't understand that a dog is _not _a TOOL! It's a living young creature with an active brain - that needs an education! Yes, specific breeds are produced to exercise certain talents - but that's not to say the pup knows exactly what to do right out of the transport-crate! It needs an education - to learn family-rules, and job-rules. I run into folks who tell me one _can't _teach a Lab not to go after birds - yet I have an old one and a younger one, who from infancy have learned that the poultry is MINE, and those birds also produce eggs that feed me and go into their supper-bowls. They also know a dead bird doesn't lay eggs - and so they protect the birds that are MINE from predators. 
Alpha-status is important to keep when having a single dog, or a pack. Pups get away with bad behavior only for as long as their elders straighten them out, and with canids that's almost instant. That's not to say being mean or cruel to a dog, that means maintaining Order. There are Rules and youngtsers are pressed to abide by them. Many folks know basic training includes word & actions like Sit, Stay, Down, Heel, etc.... I include MINE in that list, and I also expect Respect for Elders in that mix as well. I discourage any aggression towards myself or any older dogs, by treating the elders and myself first to food, cookies, sleeping-spots, etc. I take youngsters around other humans often, especially during the first 6-mos. and get them socialized with people - no need for dog-bite law-suits. The other critters at home are encorporated as "family" - and most canids automatically protect family under threat... but have to teach that not every other human is a threat just by breathing. My UPS-man brings cookies, dogs know I'm excited to get a Box, and they're encouraged to drag it into the house so I can open it. They know the sequence of these delivery truck visits... not a threat. Yes, mine have learned Vocabulary and Tasks, because they've worked as Assistance for me.
Example of dogs bred for a task, but uneducated : A nasty neighbor of mine had gotten a Border Collie, don't know why except a cute puppy can be a "chick-magnet". Taught it nothing, tied it outside, and released it once every evening right before he went into his house to start drinking beer after work. Borders are extremely smart, and they need a JOB to keep them busy... even if that job is chasing a tennis ball for an hour or two when you come home from work. This guy did none of that. So his dog would run all up and down the road and damage the neighbors' property. My house, across the road, had birds killed, my trash strewn across the yard, and my goats slashed and needing stitches. After years of law-calling, and vandalism on my stuff as pay-back for calling the law - he finally got rid of the dog cause it attacked his brother's old blind dog on his backyard trolley, down the road. 
Yes, Borders are bred for centuries to herd livestock - but they take the "stalking talent" from their wolf-forebears and are educated to HALT it at certain intervals and from certain directions - to move the sheep, ducks, goats, etc. ahead of them to a certain location AND THEN STOP! Uneducated to fine-tune this instinct into a constructive JOB, and they stalk without stopping until they slash the livestock while driving them. Watch an educated Border at work... and then watch videos of the wolf in a wolf-pack that acts as the Driver in a coordinated large game hunt... the one who drives the game into the abush of it's pack-mates. Dog learns from it's humans how to use it's talents - just like wolf-pup learns it's job from older wolves in it's pack.
 You can't pull him out the crate, toss him in the yard, and expect him to automatically know what to do - and not to do! My rule is to start them as infants! I don't wait! Want to catch them "while their brain is still young, soft, and maliable" - so first day they learn who everyone is, and that they're "the new kid" and should respect others. After that it's names of things - then tasks. By six months, mine are further along than most folks' dogs in town are at two years. Yes, I growl! I also do that huffing-laugh dogs do as they perform correctly... along with cheers like I'm in the stands at little-league!


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## Ridgetop (Apr 11, 2019)

So right!


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## Bunnylady (Apr 11, 2019)

wolf said:


> Borders are bred for centuries to herd livestock - but they take the "stalking talent" from their wolf-forebears and are educated to HALT it at certain intervals and from certain directions - to move the sheep, ducks, goats, etc. ahead of them to a certain location AND THEN STOP!



Ummmmm . . . sorta. A Border Collie is taught to listen to the shepherd, and do_ exactly_ what he is told to do, at the moment that he is told to do it. The shepherd tells him to move stop, and then perhaps move up stop, ease up and stop again, and yet again stop, move a little stop, go to the left stop, left again stop, move up stop, that'll do (which is a different kind of stop). The dog is not allowed to act on his own with the animals,_ ever, _because his innate prey drive has been honed through countless generations until it is an obsession that is only held in check by a constant stream of input from the shepherd. Even a well-trained herding dog needs to be supervised, or it may become destructive. There was an old, old tradition among sheep farmers that a dog that was no longer fit to work should be destroyed, and though that sounds ungrateful and unfair, in some cases, it wasn't, really - without a job to work off his energy and appropriate supervision to channel it, the dog might get out among someone's herds and kill, and kill, and kill. They are hardwired with a high prey drive, often well in excess of their wolf ancestors, and simply weren't safe to have around. 

Sorry to hear about your irresponsible neighbor, BTW. Anyone who knew_ anything_ about Border Collies could have predicted the problem, and the law around here would have made him responsible for your damages/vet bills, in addition to fining him for allowing the dog to run loose (eventually he might even be given the option of surrendering the dog or facing jail time)._ Your_ dog, on _your_ property, is a pet; _your_ dog on_ my_ property is a menace, and reasonable laws allow/provide reasonable measures to be employed to protect livestock and property from those who don't respect the rights of their neighbors.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 12, 2019)

Years ago, when we were just starting with our goats and sheep, an acquaintance (later friend) raised and trained Border Collies.  She eventually became a herding trial judge.  We had bought a small starter flock of old style Dorsets for our middle boy who was small for his age.  I was interested in getting an older trained Border Collie she knew of up for adoption, thinking it might make a good farm dog.  My friend advised me not to unless I wanted to keep the dog kenneled whenever it was not working.  She said that Border Collies, especially ones that had a high work instinct were known for sneaking into the flock and driving them back and forth when they were not working!  The sheep were not injured but lost weight and became nervous because the dog kept them moving unable to relax and graze!  She said we did not have enough work for them on our (then) 1.6 acres and 10 sheep that were tame and trained to a bucket of grain.  We eventually got an Australian Shepherd from working stock.  The Aussie was partially trained to herd (all we needed) and was a terrific farm dog and house dog, super obedient and protective.   I was glad I listened to my friend since it would have been an unhappy pairing of a highly trained working dog (no matter how elderly) and our ranch style. 

The predator style approach to the flock is the reason these dogs are so clever at their work since the sheep retreat from then and obey them.  HOWEVER, the flock needs to be trained to the dog too, since otherwise they just scatter in fear from what they perceive to be a PREDATOR.  According to our herding dog friends over the years, goats are less able to be worked with dogs since they tend to react to a predator by bunching in a circle to defend the younger members of the herd.  The bucks surround the herd with the older does next, yearlings next, and kids in the middle.  They can don't run like sheep.  I have witnessed this behavior myself.


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