# Infertile Ram?



## mysunwolf (Nov 8, 2014)

We put our 11 month old ram lamb in with the ewes and ewe lambs October 5. I watched him breed Darla, my oldest ewe (who is definitely overweight, bordering on really fat), at least five times that day. Over the next few weeks, I watched him breed quite a few of my other ewes and ewe lambs. Today, 34 days later, I watched Darla stand for the ram to breed her again. I have watched this happen with at least two others. 

What are the chances that the ram is infertile?

Could it be that the ewes are just not taking?

I found another white Katahdin ram, 2 years old and proven, not aggressive, for sale 1.5 hours from me, for under $200.

Should I remove my ram lamb from the flock, and instead put in a new ram? Should I just trust that maybe my young ram needs a few more heat cycles to breed the girls than a proven ram would? Do I first do pregnancy tests on my girls?

If I do put a new ram in, any precautions I would need to take? I realize it doesn't leave proper room for quarantine, but I'm in a bit of a bind.

I REALLY need lambs this spring so that I can have lamb meat to sell at the market and get ourselves established there as lamb sellers (we already sell chicken and rabbit). It would be too hard on our farm business to delay it one more market season. And would prefer not to be raising lambs on hay, so breeding in April is not really preferred. 

Help!


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## jodief100 (Nov 8, 2014)

See if you can find a vet who can do a semen test for the ram.  We do our bucks, it runs about $80 and is well worth it.  I do not know enough about sheep to say for certain but with our bucks, the younger ones can take a cycle or two to get the job done.  

You mentioned Darla is fat.  With goats, the fat ones are more difficult to get pregnant.  Could it be your ewes?  How many ewes did he breed?  Outright infertile males are rare but marginal fertility is not uncommon.  I would not expect a young buck to cover more than 10 does.  An older buck can handle 20-30 depending on conditions. 

If it is critical you get your ewes bred now and a semen test is not an option, I would get the other ram.  Unless the ewes that are not taking are the fat ones, then maybe it is the ewes.  As far as quarantine, take a good hard look at the farm he comes from and all the animals.  If they all seem healthy and well taken care of, it may be worth the risk.  Ask a lot of questions about health, feed and management.  

Good Luck.  I hope everything works out for you.


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## SheepGirl (Nov 8, 2014)

Have you seen the ewes all stand for him? I have a 9 month old ram lamb breeding my ewes this year and so far hes settled everyone on their first heat based on the crayon markings from his marking harness. Are you sure your ram is actually rebreeding ewes or is he just messing around? If your ewes on on their second cycle with him, leave him in until the third to make sure they're bred if you think he is rebreeding ewes.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 8, 2014)

The ram is in with 9 ewes/ewe lambs. I am thinking marginal fertility is the answer here. We were not planning to keep this ram anyway. 

I would prefer not to get the semen tested as it would cost a lot more than that to have the vet come all the way out here (we're far from town).

Will a ewe stand for a ram if she's already bred? Because this is serious business breeding, not just mounting. So far, I know for sure that there are two ewes that are not taking, both older girls, one who is fat and one who is in perfect condition. 

The fat ewe Darla was on her third cycle today when he re-bred her (I did not see any breeding at her second cycle). I have also seen an older ewe lamb get bred on her first and second cycle. I am going to leave a ram in at least until the end of November, and if I do buy a second ram I may leave him in through January depending on how it goes with the girls.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 9, 2014)

Ewes which are pregnant are not interested in, nor are they interesting to the ram. It sounds to me that they may not be pregnant.

Was the ram lamb in any way unwell  causing a fever over the last couple of months? If he has had an illness then he may not be fertile for the ensuing two months, though his fertility will eventually recover.Sperm likes lower temperatures than the body cavity,hence the testicles lie outside the body cavity in the scrotum. Anything which causes the blood temperature to increase is likely to cause temporary infertility.

Fingers crossed for your breeding.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 9, 2014)

Thank you Sheepshape.

I have been talked down by the spouse, and may decide that we are content to try again with breeding in April or May if the ewes don't take. Though I'm not sure yet.   Maybe I should buy the ram just so I can have him to breed with in fall 2015 as well. Got to find a place to put my current ram until slaughter, though. 

Very frustrated that I was an idiot when buying this ram lamb. I keep saying, "Next time I breed sheep for the first time ever, I'll buy a proven ram."  

The ram lamb has a bit of a cough, but this only happens when he eats hay. When he's on just pasture, it goes away. Of course, the pastures are all dead, so he has to be on hay.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 9, 2014)

Could you borrow a ram for a couple of weeks? We borrowed one from our neighbours when we first had sheep. We now hold on to our best new ram lambs and swop them with  rams from our neighbours to 'mix the blood'.

I usually leave a ram in with the ewes for a month then swop for another ram for a couple of weeks as not all pairings work for whatever reason, even when both animals are fertile.

Apart from feeling a ram's testicles to ensure they are present/equal/no lumps etc and ensuring that the animal looks otherwise well, then most of us don't do a great deal else when buying a ram (and I have to admit,I rarely feel their 'assets'!). Over here a ram can be returned and the sale price refunded if the ram were bought from a livestock auction and fails to impregnate the ewes. However, that could mean no lambs in that season.

I DO hope you find a solution as it is so very disappointing to find that you have nothing at the end of your (and his) hard work.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 10, 2014)

UPDATE: The fat ewe Darla was bleeding from her vagina this morning. She looks otherwise okay. Did the ram just breed her too much?

Another question: Will a *pregnant* ewe stand for a ram? There is a very very small possibility...

I've thought about borrowing a ram, my main concern is that I lock all my sheep up at night in a barn, and that an unfamiliar ram would be very aggressive with the ewes in the small space. Or that the ewes would harm him!

With this update, I'm sort of hoping that it's just this one ewe. I'm still keeping an eye out for other re-breedings. What's odd is that it looks like most of the ewe lambs are the ones that have "took," whereas I've always read that the ewes are usually the ones that the ram gets on their first cycles.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 10, 2014)

Mature ewes are usually the ones to get pregnant easiest. Pregnant ewes don't usually let the ram mate her......and usually the ram shows no interest in the pregnant ewe.

I'm not sure as to why Darla was bleeding....but it could have been his 'enthusiasm' I guess.

I don't think that an unfamiliar ram in your barn would be an issue. Last year I introduced a new ram to my girls in the barn and he mated one before she had chance to get outside (all in about 10 minutes). They usually will all sniff the newcomer, but that is it. Rams and ewes don't generally fight.

Hope you find a solution.


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## SheepGirl (Nov 11, 2014)

The first day I introduced my new ram to the ewe flock this year, Rosie was upset with him, for whatever reason. She kept antagonizing him and he kept going after her (like serious charging). Luckily my oldest no-nonsense ewe was in heat and she kept distracting the ram so he wouldn't hurt Rosie. She would actually get in between the two and put her butt in his face, lol.

I think that's the only time though I haven't had ewes and rams get along. Just be watchful the first day or two to make sure everybody's okay.


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## Bossroo (Nov 11, 2014)

The cause of the bleeding, more likely then not, is expelling a dead fetus plus associated tissue and blood. Time for a new ram.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 13, 2014)

Bossroo, you were right... I watched him breed two ewe lambs AGAIN Tues and Wed. This ram is definitely 100% INFERTILE. What're the odds, right?

There's a proven 2 year old pure (but not registered) ram about 1.5 hours away from me that I'm picking up on Sunday for $195. He looks fairly nice.

There was also one 10 hours away from me for $200 who is registered, proven, RR, a twin, pretty red, etc. BUT I can't afford the gas money for the drive  I have to have enough for my barn expansion this fall and winter so that we're ready for spring lambing. I hope the perfect guy will come up again, but next time closer to me.

Now, to build a pen in my backyard for my current ram to live until he goes to slaughter.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 16, 2014)

Going to pick up the new ram today in my Subaru! Very excited, but hope that he behaves himself in the barn (and with me). Storms are coming, so I'll have to build a shed for the current ram lamb to hunker down in... or stick him in with the bunnies!


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## mysunwolf (Nov 16, 2014)

Well, this was yet another situation in which I should DEFINITELY NOT have bought this sheep... but I did.

The man who was selling the ram had a bunch of skin-and-bones lambs with bottlejaw dying of anemia all over the place. I didn't know how to tell him that they all needed to be on dry lot ASAP at the very least. The ram looks to be in amazing condition and perfect health, so that says something, but I am having the vet run a fecal tomorrow.  We will watch him for the next few days while we see how he does. Got his hooves trimmed up and disinfected in the hopes that at least he won't spread anything that way. He apparently sometimes headbutts when grain is involved, so I'll have to watch him in the pasture. He has bright eyes, a good eye lid color, clean nostrils, excellent poop, a clear baaa, etc. 

Needless to say, I am FREAKED OUT. I am also very tired of people like this selling animals at all, even the "healthy" ones.

I need him breeding the ewes sooner rather than later, but obviously it will have to wait a little while. I never would have guessed that the situation at this farm was so bad from the research I did about them. Just goes to show?


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## Sheepshape (Nov 17, 2014)

I hope that you have more success with this ram. It sounds as though he should be treated for worms and fluke (if fluke is a problem in your area). The guy you bought the ram from sounds as though he needs to be reported!

Just to say that over this side of the pond, the new advice from vets is against hoof cutting for foot rot and CODD (contagious ovine digital dermatitis). Farmers locally have been accustomed to cutting back the hoof until it bleed in order to 'allow the air in'. Veterinary advice now is not to cut the hoof as it is overgrown only because the animal cannot walk properly on that hoof, and to cut off the protective overgrowth will make it very painful for the sheep who will be walking on the exposed infected area. The overgrown hoof will wear off very quickly once the infection has died down. We are advised to clean and spray with foot rot spray  or lincomycin spray in iodine and then inject the sheep with a tetracycline for foot rot or pen & strep for CODD.Having done this for a while, we have pretty much eliminated the problem from our sheep. (Foot rot and CODD are prevalent around here with our very wet and cool climate). 

Your ram should ideally be quarantined for about two weeks,but I guess you don't have the time for that.


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## goatgurl (Nov 17, 2014)

glad you got him home and that he appears to be ok.  was going to say keep an eye on him for a worm bloom but you know all that stuff so i'll just say glad you and he made it home safe and hope he gets his job done quickly.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 17, 2014)

Ugh, and he is more aggressive than I was told... attempting to charge me when I enter or exit a space, or whenever he feels like it. I am currently carrying around a 2x3 when I go to see him. He's in my 10x10 bunny barn right now so he can't do much damage. But I work very closely with my small flock, and I'm worried about when I turn him out with the girls on the pasture. 

Just wanted to be clear that I was not searching for a deal, this was just the closest ram to me that looked good. I would have paid more for one even closer. Transport and $ were factors, though. 

Thank you so much for your comments. I was feeling pretty hopeless this morning, so it was great to see them! Still feeling pretty upset about the whole thing, kicking myself for having SUCKER written on my forehead. I need to *never buy anything ever again*.  EVER.

I mainly trimmed the hooves (just a touch, no bleeding) to make sure that there wasn't any feces from his previous farm left on them. He didn't have foot rot that I saw, but I sprayed with Zinc Sulfate as a preventative. Once I take the fecal on him to the vet, I'll probably come back and dose him pretty hard with Cydectin or Ivermectin (maybe the vet will have some ideas). 

Storm is coming up with big wind 40+mph, snow, and the high tomorrow at 24˚F, and I have these ram issues... I'm just going to crawl back into my bed


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Nov 17, 2014)

Lol - get that ram in with the girls to warm them up a little.  

It's a pain he's aggressive with you, but hopefully he'll treat the ewes well.  If he gets feisty, just remind him how lovely warm mutton is on a cold day!   After he does his job, maybe you can sell him with the young ram who's been shooting blanks, and start fresh with a new healthy, sweet, stud muffin of a ram next year.


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## goatgurl (Nov 17, 2014)

what a pia!  i hate aggressive sheep, especially rams.   please keep an eye on him while you are in his pen.  as you know adult rams can cause some major damage.  hopefully you can get the girls bred and get him gone then start fresh next spring.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 17, 2014)

You all are awesome  Fecal came back pretty clean, only 1 worm egg, so I let him out with the girls today. He is currently chasing them in circles and trying to fight the neighbor's ram through the fence. Guess we'll see if disaster strikes. NO idea how to get him into the shed tonight with the girls, or how to catch him in the field. Maybe I'll just let him get eaten by coyotes if he doesn't come in!


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 17, 2014)

Survival of the fittest!  Maybe he's meaner than the coyotes.


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## goatgurl (Nov 17, 2014)

or he'll be smart enough to follow the girls in.  make sure he gets his job done before you let the coyotes eat him


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## Sheepshape (Nov 17, 2014)

I hope he'll come in with the girls.....hopefully he will as they should serve as a magnet for him.

Don't beat yourself up...sounds as though he'll be fine. Maybe this was the one animal they treated well as they were going to sell him.

He probably will settle down a lot over the next few days as he gets used to his new environment.....he still has 'stage fright' right now.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 18, 2014)

Don't worry, I was joking about leaving him out with the coyotes! We have 50mph winds, temps at 14˚F, and windchill at -3˚F, currently still in my warm house drinking hot coffee  I used a grain bucket and a lead on his halter and led/dragged him back into the bunny barn. Then I put the infertile ram back with the flock and put everyone in for the night. I think we'll try introductions again when the temperatures get above freezing. I'll keep updating and maybe there will actually be LAMBS in 2015!

Thank you to this amazing community  I don't like to think of the crazed stuff I would get into if I didn't have your advice!!


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## SheepGirl (Nov 18, 2014)

That's how my new ram is. He wants to ram me every time I enter the field. Frankly, I'm scared of him lol. So I'm trying to sell him. He was raised by a man who's been in the sheep industry for two years and he has two young daughters that babied him and played with him. Definitely not the way to raise a breeding ram! He has good production behind him which is why I took the gamble, however with the way he was raised he should've been sold for meat.

The two ram lambs I overwintered last year (I shouldn't have lol -- such a waste of hay) and my current ram lamb I kept back are such nice animals. They will fight with each other, try to breed ewes through the fence, etc, but they don't bother me. They will come up to the fence and let me scratch them and pet them, but not usually. But I can go in their pen with grain or hay and they don't try to attack me for feed, or even show any aggression/signs of aggression. That's how rams should behave. I'm not sure exactly what I did to raise them to behave so nicely, but I hope I can continue to produce ram lambs with that temperament so that way buyers aren't in the same boat as I am--scared of their ram.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 19, 2014)

I treat all my sheep  pretty similarly, including hand feeding,head and brisket stroking etc. Up until a short while back I had 7 rams (down to 5 now) with 4 adults and 3 ram lambs and could happily and safely stand amongst them. SheepGirl, I guess your rams have developed respect for you. They like you and know you are the source of their food and comfort.

What I would say is that there are some 'rogue' rams who are just plain nasty....I would get rid of them. Most I find to be just as manageable as ewes,though they need treating a little differently. Usually as ram lambs reach 'puberty' they feel the need to 'show who is boss'.....that boss must be you. You must be the head ram and stand for none of their nonsense and have to have respect. There seems to be one or two occasions when they try to head butt in their adolescence, or actually do so. When this happens, I slap them quite hard across the muzzle and say 'no', if necessary chasing after the animal to do so.You can usually predict when they are going to try the butting as they eye you up for a while before making a move. This is the best time to nip things in the bud....stand your ground and slap hard....in my experience once is usually enough. I've used this method for years and it has always worked for me, apart from with a particular ram called Ivor the A**hole who a neighbour wanted.......or he would have formed nice lamb chops for somebody's freezer (and I'm a very long-term vegetarian)

I never assume to be so 'familiar' with rams which I have acquired as swops, though most do become just as manageable as the home bred ones. In the breeding season I treat the rams a little differently, leaving them generally undisturbed with their group of ewes.

Before somebody shoots me down in flames for my 'soft'/foolish attitude towards rams.....this works for me, and I am not saying it is right for everybody. I have had a nasty billy goat who broke my leg badly and I didn't walk for 6 months....so I don't go in for being cavalier or foolhardy . I also have relatively placid sheep types....Beulah Speckled Face are medium sized and generally not aggressive and Blue Faced Leicesters are gigantic (ram well over 20 stones of neat muscle), but a placid,gentle breed. 

Good luck with all your rams, folks.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 20, 2014)

I know having an aggressive ram is an awful situation to be in, but I'm so grateful for your experiences SheepGirl and Sheepshape. 

I suspect that this aggressive ram I have was treated like a pet--when I went to pick him up and we walked into the field, the man who owned him patted him on the head in greeting. My infertile ram, who I have had to work with very closely (he is partially halter trained), is also beginning to show some small signs of aggression. I have had good luck with twisting his ears when he gently headbutted me in the past--I don't let roosters dance for me, so I certainly won't let ram lambs test me in this way either. Luckily he's leaving soon, too.

The new ram is in with the girls and has already bred at least 2-3 of them, and is working hard on the others. It seems as if they are all attempting to accelerate their cycles in order to actually get bred, as I've seen a few come around after 16 days and some that are interested in him that I'd swear cycled only 8 days ago. I'm going to leave him in for 40 days and then send him down to the processor with the infertile ram, the wether, and a cull ewe lamb. Just have to be absolutely sure that they mark which packages are the mutton! By that time, I should be able to see if the ewes cycle again. I'm curious to see what lambing looks like in the spring after all these breeding complications. 

So far, the new ram has not charged me while in the field as he has been too busy breeding the girls. They've settled down around him, so they're one big happy flock at this point (sort of). He is about 200lbs and fairly nice, for a Katahdin. 

Bothering my huge ewe lamb, Cow.



 

From the other side.


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## BrownSheep (Nov 20, 2014)

He is a nice looking fella. Sorry he is such a pain though. 

Our first ram was similar. A former bottle baby that turned aggressive. Now that we have more rams he doesn't waste his efforts on us. He generally just wants us to scratch behind his ears for him (horns get in his way).

We won't sell him since it would just be putting some one else in a bad boat and we're kind of fond of him now.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 20, 2014)

Nice looking ram,thick set and looks like he knows one end of a ewe from the other. My fingers are crossed for you....I'm sure he'll step up to the mark.

I am seeing what I believe to be typical behaviour from sheep newly pregnant in my little flock. Having left the ram which I wanted to be father of any lambs in with each of two small flocks of sheep (the smallest with a ram of their own kind and the largest with a massive Leicester), I did a ram swop a week ago to try to eliminate 'sterile pairings'. The boys immediately checked out their new group of girls. Mostly the girls just sniffed the new ram and then walked away. One ewe hung around the big Leicester after a couple of days and he did hid best to ensure her pregnancy.

Yesterday I saw the big guy (Goliath) stroll over to my smallest ewe, Minnie, who I know was repeatedly mated by Dave, the smaller ram. Goliath stands 6 inches taller than her, and looks twice as long. Tongue out, licking her side, pawing, low grumbling noise....I thought...oh no.....but Minnie just bolted away from him, not even bothering to pee.I'm hoping this is what the hormonal change of a small bunch of cells will do.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 29, 2014)

We are trying to sell this one as an aggressive ram... but not sure that will go over too well. If anyone wants him, let me know  He has not charged me in the field at all yet, but I'm making a point of not going in there. In the evenings, I lead everyone in for grain, and as long as I have my trusty stick he doesn't make any moves to headbutt.

I'm marking my calendar when I see him breed the ewes. As we get into December some, I should know how effective he is. Hopefully we'll have him in for two cycles and then take him out. After that, we plan to sell him or eat him (not real excited about the 2 or 2.5yr old ram mutton). We'll probably hold onto one of his sons next spring and hope that the aggression is not genetic. 

We had our first snow here, around the same time I finished fencing the rest of my land, a nice south-facing 2-acre field that was hayed in 2013 and hasn't been touched all this year. It took them a while, but now the sheep are loving their standing hay. They haven't touched the bales since I opened up the extra land (woohoo!).


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## purplequeenvt (Nov 30, 2014)

2 year old ram mutton sounds delicious! I bet you won't be able to tell the difference.


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