# CL scare? *update! good news!*



## happyvagabonds (May 18, 2012)

i brought home a lovely yearling mini-alpine doe and her buckling that was born march 30th on April 9th. i bought her from a local farmer who raises meat goats. he happened to acquire an alpine doe and a nigerian dwarf buck and put them together to produce my Dolly. 

when i looked at her at his farm, i saw her in the dimly lit stall that she had birthed her kid in and also out in the pasture with the rest of his herd. she looked healthy and displayed wonderful mothering instincts. i was really uneducated in goats at the time and this was the only person i knew that had goats for sale. i made an emotional decision and bought her and the buckling and brought them home with dreams of becoming a dairymaid and producing wonderful soaps to sell for extra income. 

the day i brought her home, i naturally took some time to give her a closer inspection. i discovered a small cyst on her right thigh... toward the outer side and back of her leg, visible when she stands in profile. it was about the size of a grape and seemed to bother her when i touched it. upon closer inspection, it looked like it was a puncture wound that had closed up and become infected. there was a spot toward the bottom of the cyst that was a bit darker and somewhat crusty. there was no hair on the cyst. the skin over the cyst seemed thick and the fluid inside the cyst seemed somewhat stiff. it seemed to be attached to her dermal layer and not attached to muscle. i could not move the cyst without moving her hide, but was able to move it in all directions over the meat of her thigh. (if that makes sense...) 

i googled it and learned about CL and became somewhat concerned. 

i knew that she had had her CD&T shot and had been wormed shortly before she kidded. i called the man i bought her from and asked about the cyst, wondering if perhaps it could be a reaction to her shot. he had no knowledge of it and said that was not where she was given her the shot. he suggested that i ask another local farmer who runs a feed store and is very knowledgeable about goats and their care. 

i explained it to him and he told me that he did not think it was CL based on what i told him. the abscess was not growing larger. he sad that if it were CL, i would be seeing a drastic change in the cyst and that it would quickly grow larger and burst. also, he doubted it was CL based on the fact that it presented on her thigh rather than the more common place of her head or neck area. he told me to leave it alone and keep an eye on it and i have been.

over the past 6 weeks, i have watched the cyst and it seems like it has been slowly shrinking and hair was beginning to grow over it again. i have been checking it every morning when i go out to milk her. 

this morning, i noted a change. the crusty, dark area at the bottom had opened up a bit. there was a definitive hole there, but it did not seem like a fresh wound... the edges were dried and tough. i could see some whitish flecks deep in the hole. i left it alone because i was getting ready to milk her. 

today i did more reading on CL and found a diagram of locations of potential CL sites and was alarmed to see that where her cyst is seems to be near one of those locations. previous diagrams i looked at did not show that spot. so now i was doubly concerned. 

i armed myself with some first aid supplies and went out to give the cyst a closer look tonight. with rubber gloves on, i squeezed carefully and a bit of exudate began to emerge from the hole at the bottom of the cyst. with resolve, i began to work more and more gunk out of the cyst. Dolly was not happy about this procedure one little bit. i carefully worked as much exudate out of the cyst as possible, checking multiple times to be sure that i managed to get everything out of it. the exudate was thick, sticky and creamy colored, not really any green tint to it imo... except the last bit that was extruded was darker in color, almost a grayish/green with very slight traces of blood. some of it stuck to the fur surrounding her cyst and i washed the area with tea tree soap. i filled a syringe with hydrogen peroxide and flushed the deflated cyst.

i have saved the exudate in a prescription bottle and put it in my fridge. i asked my husband to burn everything i used to clean and tend to the wound. 

can i send the exudate off to be tested for CL? or will i need to have a blood test run?

does this sound like a case of CL? or is it as i thought, an abscess from a puncture wound of some kind?

i have been feeding her milk to a 6 week old doeling that i got on March 29th. if this is indeed a case of CL, have i now infected my doeling with it as well?  

thanks in advance for your thoughts, comments and suggestions.


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## ksalvagno (May 18, 2012)

I would send the pus off to be tested. I would also get a vet involved in case this is an old wound that may need some serious care.


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## SDBoerGoats (May 18, 2012)

I have read that testing the pus gives you a better positive or negative than testing the blood, but you have to find where to send it. 
The place on her thigh does sound like an odd place to me for CL, but I don't know that much about it. however, I bought a herd of 7 bred does 2 months ago, and did our blood testing last month and 4 of those does tested positive for CL. 2 had already had beautiful babies that had nursed. So I am losing them too. And yes, if you fed that doeling milk from a positive CL doe, she will probably get it. One of the does did get an abscess on her jaw, and I did the same thing you did, I opened it on a cement wash rack, used gloves, and cut open the abscess with a sharp razor. There was a large blob of really thick light yellow pus, and it all came out in one blob. There wasn't any blood or anything and it came out clean. So I knew as soon as I got it out it really looked like CL. An abscess from cheat or a splinter there would have also been some bloody discharge with it, the remnants of a splinter or the cheat grass. Yours might not be that the way you describe it. I did this before I got the blood tests back, they came back 3 days later positive. This is the only doe who had an abscess AND the doe with the lowest test numbers! Go figure. 

The lady won't take the does back, so I have to take them to a sale I guess. I paid a lot for them, and don't see me getting that back at a sale. The babies are a loss.


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## babsbag (May 19, 2012)

It is not an absolute that you have infected the kids with the milk. That would only be the case if there are internal abcesses in the dam's udder. One advantage of the blood test is that it will tell you the titers; or how many antibodies your goat is producing in response to the CL. If the titers are high there is a good chance of internal abcesses.

I have 2 does that test + for CL, both with very low titers and no abcesses. I have raised kids of them for three years and all the kids test negative for CL. 

I wouldn't condem those kids so quickly. CAE is passed in milk, with CL the vote is out on wether or not it can be passed that way.

I am sorry you are dealing with this...no fun.


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## happyvagabonds (May 19, 2012)

well... i spoke with the vet this AM and was advised that since i did not put the exudate into a proper medium immediately after extracting it from the abscess, chances were that if it were cultured, it may come back with a false negative. Also, the cost of the culture was somewhere in the $160 ballpark. 

when i asked if it could be passed to the kids via milk, she felt it was very unlikely. 

she advised me to continue as i have been... to keep an eye on it... and to flush the now open abscess with betadine for a few days. 

when i flushed it this AM, something enlightening happened... which sets my mind a bit more at ease... as i flushed the betadine into the opening at the bottom of the abscess, a thin stream of betadine squirted forcefully from an opening at the top of the abscess. this makes me feel like this was an abscess formed either from a bite or the vet suggested perhaps a splinter that pierced through her hide... or perhaps a nail or a loose fence wire. 

i had plans to have her tested soon for TB and Brucellosis anyway. when i do, i will also have her tested for CL and CAE just so i can have some peace of mind about her... and our future. 

if anyone else has thoughts, suggestions or comments, i would be grateful to hear them. 

thank you to those who have already offered feedback.


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## ksalvagno (May 19, 2012)

If there was a second opening, my bet would be on an old wound. But I'm sure you will feel better once she is tested.


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## happyvagabonds (May 19, 2012)

i am trying to find more information about this issue... do CL abscesses shrink? and once they lose hair, does the hair regrow? 

from what i am reading (reading, reading, reading) they tend to grow pretty fast, lose hair, then rupture if untreated. 

anyone know if they will shrink without rupture? 

what does the rupture look like? would it be a small hole? or the entire face of the hairless abscess?


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## SDBoerGoats (May 19, 2012)

babsbag said:
			
		

> It is not an absolute that you have infected the kids with the milk. That would only be the case if there are internal abcesses in the dam's udder. One advantage of the blood test is that it will tell you the titers; or how many antibodies your goat is producing in response to the CL. If the titers are high there is a good chance of internal abcesses.
> 
> I have 2 does that test + for CL, both with very low titers and no abcesses. I have raised kids of them for three years and all the kids test negative for CL.
> 
> ...


Are you serious? You have a doe that tests positive and the kids test negative? Because one of these does that I bought tested with really low titers, and she has beautiful babies. I have been told that I have to sell her too, even though she is low. The one I pulled the babies from tested high. But I was told by the tech who pulled the blood for me ( she also has raised goats for 30 years) that I needed to get rid of all of them, and any of them that were pregnant and close before the sale date, to let them have the babies and pull them immediately. 

Do you leave those does out with your other goats or do you keep them separated, cause that would cause a problem for me too. But this doe is a full blood with beautiful confirmation, I'd love to keep her and it is breaking my heart to let her go. Gosh if there's a chance I can keep her........


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## Roll farms (May 19, 2012)

It's generally a small hole when they bust on their own.  Not always symmetrical, but sometimes.

The hair around the lump will grow back, but there's generally a scar when the goat is shaved that is obvious.

You just can't diagnose it w/out the test(s), so working yourself up either way is pointless.  Reading is great (knowledge is power), but I don't want you to get a false sense of doom or security....wait to see what the test results show.

I've dealt w/ CL for 12 yrs now, and if I had it to do over....I would have culled the CL does and started over.  I let my sentimental side rule and have been cleaning abscesses for a long, long time.  We have about 80% success rate w/ the Case-Bac vaccine, used on keeper kids....I do not vaccinate kids I'm selling and they're kept isolated.

We catch every.single.kid.born and bottle raise 100% on pasteurized milk, and in close to 300 kids sold in that 12 yrs, not one has tested positive, to my knowledge.


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## SDBoerGoats (May 19, 2012)

Rolls, since you have experience with this, maybe you can help me make up my mind. The herd of does I bought had 4 that tested positive. I pulled the 2 babies born last week off the mom and am bottle feeding them. There is another doe due in a couple of weeks, she is a really nice doe. I want to keep her and pull the babies off her too and then sell her. But I read on the forum earlier that someone has had 3  CL positive does for several years and the babies have never tested positive, and the does tested with low titers. 

2 of these does have very low titers. One has not signs of abscesses at all, one did a few weeks ago and I isolated her, lanced the abscess and cleaned it well, burned everything, and then again isolated her. None of these does have been intermixed with my original herd. 

I really want to keep these two does, if it is possible. The others, tested way high was one was also positive for Johne's so I am at peace with them going. 

Should I just wait til the last doe kids, take the babies and sell her? Do you feel it would be safe to keep her and the other low testing doe? I read that the babies weren't pulled off the mom's and they still tested negative. Now I am so confused. I want to do what is right for my herd.

My head tells me to keep the pregnant doe til she kids, pull the babies and sell her. Sell the other low testing doe, even though I love her to death. My heart says to keep her and keep her isolated, but that is such a pain in the butt and I would never forgive myself if I infected my other goats. They all tested clean for CL/CAE and Johne's. So the brain says get rid of anything that carries CL and just carry on with my clean herd, no problems. The sale is Monday and it is gonna be a dark dark day for me.


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## Roll farms (May 19, 2012)

I repeat, if I had it to do over, I'd have culled the CL does.

Why risk clean does????

We started w/ 3 we adored, bought a doe from a breeder that lied, and who then infected those 3 we loved.  I didn't want to cull / kill them....they were my 1st goats.
But if I could go back in time...all 4 would have been put down.  (Not sold - unless the buyer knew / didn't care.)


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## Mossy Stone Farm (May 20, 2012)

Please if you sell any animal that tested positive or you think may  it is your duty to inform buyers, it is not fair to pass this on.... We have to do all we can to STOP the spread of this....


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## happyvagabonds (May 20, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> It's generally a small hole when they bust on their own.  Not always symmetrical, but sometimes.
> 
> The hair around the lump will grow back, but there's generally a scar when the goat is shaved that is obvious.
> 
> ...


thanks for your reply. i am just so confused and worried by this. i have put everything i have into these goats and to start off on such a bad foot would be devastating. 

the exudate had the thickness associated with CL, but not sure about the color. i did not note any odor. i know that it did not rupture on it's own (since i have owned her). i spend anywhere from 4-8 hours a day out there with my goats. i brush my doe every day. i constantly interact with her and have especially kept my eye on this abscess. it was hairless when i got her and did not show signs of any recent injury. there was a darker, rough patch toward the bottom of the abscess (where the open hole is now) that seemed like a wound that had been healed over for some time. over the past 2 months, the hair has slowly been regrowing and the abscess has been shrinking. the first change i noted was the other day as mentioned in my original post. 

with all i have read, it seems odd to me that it would rupture after hair has begun to regrow over the face of the abscess. and also the fact that it has been shrinking slowly over time. these things seem contraindicative of CL from what i have read. also, when it is hairless, i understand that the outer skin becomes thinner? that has not been the case with this abscess.

when it ruptures, would it come out all at once? or be a slow draining? 

i totally get not wanting to encourage a false sense of doom or one of security. since i drained it, i have been absolutely in a panic. it has been a nagging worry since i first discovered it and subsequently learned about CL, but felt encouraged by the advice of the old farmer and the history of the herd from the man that i had bought her from. 

it will be at least 2 weeks before i can have her tested. i just wish that i *could* have a sense of security about this and not be up at 3AM tossing and turning with worry about it and get up to check this thread for some words of hope.


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## Roll farms (May 20, 2012)

I've seen abscesses that I knew were on CL + does, that didn't 'look' like CL.  I've had does who test negative, have abscesses that *look* like CL.  And I've seen a lot of pictures posted on this site where people are told it is or it isn't CL and then they test and find out the opposite is true.

You cannot be sure w/out tests.  It can't be verified online either way.

And if you think I wasn't utterly devestated when told I had to destroy my first 4 goats......you'd be mistaken.  They were like my children.

I DO understand your worry and heartache.  I just can't help you by saying it is or it isn't...my crystal ball is in the shop.  :/

But, if you're wanting reassurance (and it seems you do by the questions you're asking), I can't give it to you, because it sure sounds like CL to me.  I can't say, "Oh, well then, since it did this or this it may not be."  But again, online diagnosis doesn't work...and I've been wrong maybe 3 or 4 times in my life.  (weak attempt at a joke, sorry...)

I HOPE it isn't, but isolate and treat her like it IS.


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## happyvagabonds (May 20, 2012)

i understand and i truly appreciate your words. you're right, i am hoping that someone would say "it sounds more like NOT CL than CL... but still have it tested."

which i will. i promise. 

but damn those crystal balls... they always break when you need them most. 

here's to hoping this will be the 5th time you are wrong.... )

i will keep doing what i am doing until the test and pray for the best. 

i can't really isolate her from the herd as the herd consists of her, her kid and a young doeling that i am feeding her milk to. she and the doeling don't have much contact with one another, if any at all. 

i feel pretty confident that i took care of it before it ruptured on it's own and have been doing my best to keep anything that comes in contact with her abscess while i am cleaning it isolated and properly taken care of afterward... burned or soaked in full strength bleach. 

thanks again for your advice.


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## SDBoerGoats (May 20, 2012)

Mossy Stone Farm said:
			
		

> Please if you sell any animal that tested positive or you think may  it is your duty to inform buyers, it is not fair to pass this on.... We have to do all we can to STOP the spread of this....


Oh I would never EVER sell any animal with any infectious disease to an unsuspecting buyer.  Not with horses, and not with goats. There were diseases in the Quarter horse bloodlines years ago that carried a bad gene that if the horses were culled or spayed, or gelded, that could have been eradicated, there's diseases today, a new one, HERDA, that horses must be put down if they have it and people will register them and sell them to others. I think it is absolutely horrible to do that to anyone. Plus, you then keep the diseases going. 

 They are going to a slaughter only sale, I have never been there ever, so I don't even know how it works. yes, we are going to take a  severe loss on this, and it is devastating. Lost one of my favorite does a while back, only a yearling, bred to Sundance, and now this. But I was told to take them there by a very reputable goat owner who in fact did the testing on my goats for me. She also told me to not even consider keeping the lower testing does, she asked me, why take the risk on infecting the rest of your herd? It was just my heart talking to me, the does are beautiful and their babies are gorgeous.  that is why I said tomorrow is going to be a very dark, dark day for me, because I know they are all going to die, even the babies. So I have been depressed and upset about this since the day the results came in. 

We want to produce quality goats, maintain a closed herd and advertise a CL, CAE and Johne's tested free herd. And keep a reputable reputation in the goat business such as we did in the horse business.


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## babsbag (May 21, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

> babsbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I keep my goats all together. I have never had an abcess, and I test by herd yearly. If I do get an abcess then I will have to make some hard decisions.

The + does have kids that are now 3 years old and they still test negative.

My goats have never been vaccinated for CL. According to UC Davis titers of 1:8 and 1:128 can be found in infected and uninfected animals but the higher the titer the more likely it is they are infected. Mine are 1:16 and 1:32. The rest of my herd is 1:8 which they consider negative. A titer greater than 1:256 is a strong indication of internal abcesses...then I would be worried about milk contamination. But even then I have never heard of a documented case being traced to milk.


CAE is passed through milk and to my knowledge CL is not. Unless your goats have an open abcess I would highly doubt they have passed it on to thier kids.


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## happyvagabonds (Jun 15, 2012)

Good news!

i finally got my Dolly goat to the vet (1 hour trip each way!) for her CAE, CL, Brucellosis and TB tests.

Still waiting for the results on CAE, tho i am not really concerned about that. to my knowledge, there was no history of CAE in the herd she came from. 

the CL test was negative. ) the vet took one look at it (and feel) and kinda felt that it would come back negative regardless. the abscess was clearly in the dermal layer and not deep enough to be a CL abscess. But the test came back negative! *phew* what a weight from my shoulders. i was filled with so much worry and dread over this.

her TB and Brucellosis tests also came back negative, so as soon as i get these kids weaned, we can actually use the milk! 

thanks to those who have responded for your advice and words of well-wishes and comfort.


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