# Doe Not Letting Kid Nurse - Doeling has a Home! Post 30



## greenfamilyfarms (Jan 26, 2010)

The Boer doe that I had been waiting on to kid for some time now kidded today - a healthy set of twins, a doeling and a buckling. Both kids are up and strong, but the doe will not allow them to get near her udder. 

Is there any way to get her to allow them to nurse? How long should I wait until I take things into my own hands and given them colostrum myself?

I am so tired, but they are my #1 priority right now. Pictures will come soon, I promise, but not when I'm so exhausted.


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## Roll farms (Jan 26, 2010)

They need colostrum in them w/in 1-2 hours.  
If she just flat won't, no matter what, let them nurse, then milk at least 8 oz. out and give them 2-4 oz. ea. (as much as they 'want')...my kids are usually good for at least that much right after birth.

Did she help clean them off / act interested?  Has she kidded before / been a good mom?  
If so, there's hope you can talk her into it.
Get some colostrum in their bellies and leave them w/ her, she may take over for you.  If you still don't see them nursing by morning...I'd take over.

Does she butt them away / act hostile to them?  
If she does, you'll probably have to take over for the long haul.  My sister's doe killed her triplets last year when she left them in w/ them, hoping they'd bond overnight.

There's probably a lot more to be said / suggestions to be made, but I'll quit here and say...get some colostrum in them soon, however you can.

Good luck and congrats!


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## greenfamilyfarms (Jan 27, 2010)

They are eating! Thank goodness! It's been a very long night of in and out the barn. Whew. Pics coming on another thread.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Jan 29, 2010)

Ok, the doe is favoring the buckling over the doeling. I have been going out several times a day for the past 3 days and holding the doe down so that both kids can eat. I was hoping that this would help her bond to both and that she would have her smell. If I did not go out and do this, the doe would not allow the doeling to eat at all. She would butt her and toss her around with her horns. Very scary.

This morning I went out and the little doeling was in the back corner of the stall and very, very cold. So, she's MY baby now. She has gotten some colostrum and I plan to go get her some fresh sav-a-kid today. Is there anything else that would give her a boost?


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## cmjust0 (Jan 29, 2010)

greenfamilyfarms said:
			
		

> This morning I went out and the little doeling was in the back corner of the stall and very, very cold. So, she's MY baby now. She has gotten some colostrum and I plan to go get her some fresh sav-a-kid today. Is there anything else that would give her a boost?


Personally...I'd think hard and read up before using milk replacer.  If for some reason you can't milk mama to provide for the doeling, I'd go with whole cow's milk from the store.

If you really wanna get fancy, I've got a recipe for a pretty good replacer that uses whole milk, whole cultured buttermilk, and evaporated milk.  Baby goats LOVE IT.

Conversely, I've actually tried to use replacer before but nobody would drink it..


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## Roll farms (Jan 29, 2010)

In my opinion, SavAKid isn't a 'good' replacer.  
I've read of people having success w/ some of the higher-end replacers made for goats but...for the money, I'd just use Vitamin D milk.

(Never tried CM's recipe, but I've heard of it, too....)

Our kids (when we don't have goats milk or enough to go around) grow just fine on the straight whole milk.

Never have scours from it, either.


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## lilhill (Jan 29, 2010)

I had a doe that would do the same thing, two years in a row.  Pick out one kid and reject the other.  I used whole cows milk and supplemented with PolyVisol baby vitamins and the kids grew off great and healthy.  I just don't use any kind of milk replacer.

Oh yeah, the doe was sold and new owner told of her propensity to only take care of one baby at a time.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Jan 29, 2010)

Wow, so I think I'll just swing by the grocery store and get whole milk.  Thanks for the advice everybody!


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## countrywife (Jan 29, 2010)

Green- If you can't get the milk replacer, and purina makes a great one, I have some at the house. You can also get goat milk at the grocery store, but I did the goat training with the state, and they advise against giving goats ANY cow milk for any reason. Its likely to cause scours. I am going to PM you my phone number, I am headed to Fayetteville later today, so if you can't get the purina goat milk replacer or goat milk, call me. I can get the replacer at family farm and the goat milk at the commisary. Till then, just hold her on the momma. Call me, I should be able to meet you somewhere before the weather turns. TSC is here where I work, I can get some there too.

Barb


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 29, 2010)

Many goat owners I know also use whole cow milk.


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## Roll farms (Jan 29, 2010)

I have raised literally hundreds of goat kids on cow milk w/ no scours.

When I tried replacers (granted, they weren't the better ones, we didn't have 'goat' replacers around here back then) we had lots of kids scour.

For the money, Purina replacer will be roughly 1/3-1/2 more expensive than whole milk, if you buy it on sale and freeze it / stock up.

"Training" is good, but practical experience for me has PROVEN that kids raised on whole cow milk that's been homogenized do fine.  
The homogenization process makes cow milk easier to digest.

Store bought goat milk will cost you 2 or 3 arms and a leg over the cost of cow milk.

Don't get me wrong, I want what's best for my kids...but I also run a business...and if whole milk WORKS FINE / just as good as the replacer, and is cheaper....I'm going w/ the milk.

I also work at a TSC, and when folks come in looking for replacer for kids, I advise against it and tell them to save their money and go buy Vitamin D milk.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 29, 2010)

The recipe we've used in the past, if you're interested, goes like this:

Pour 2-1/2 cups out of a 1gal jug of whole milk.
Add a can of evaporated milk to the what's left of the gallon.
Top the gallon up with whole cultured buttermilk.
Shake it up a lil bit.

Poof....you're done.

The evap adds cost, though.  Walmart has it for like $.90/can or something, which basically means it's about 30% more expensive than regular $3/gal whole milk.  

Is it worth it?  I honestly have no idea, but...probably not.  

Made _me_ feel better, though, for some reason.


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## countrywife (Jan 29, 2010)

Years ago when I started this goat thing, an old man told me to use canned evaporated milk. Being as I was raised in the city, and assumed he knew what he was talking about, I did. What a DISASTER that was! I have on occasion in a pinch given the cows milk, way better than the can.

I can get a big tub of purina replacer for under 20.00 here. One tub will keep two babies going for a bit more than a week. The other replacers just price me right out of the market, so yea, cost is a concern. I have not known TSC to carry the purina, but maybe they will now. I like the Purina becuase I can always have it around, the price is comparable to a gallon of milk, which is $3.00 now, and it is specifically for goats. The goat milk I can get in a can here- one can makes 16 ounces of milk, and it costs me about a buck a can. But I have commisary privileges, it is like 3 times that amount in the regular grocery store.

I respect your experience, I actually have raised very few kids on the bottle, mostly becuase they tend to be trouble makers that get me yelled as- as in the husband standing on the back porch explaining YET AGAIN that its not good for the goats to come in and out of the house  - yea, I didn't teach them that, they simply think I am thier mother.

And I got dibs on Green's little billy goat- so, if I can help bring some milk, I owe her.


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## currycomb (Jan 29, 2010)

boy, i don't know why everyone is against using milk replacer. that is all i use after giving colostrum and a feeding or two of mom's milk. i hate milking. have arthritis and carpal tunnel, so is painful for me. i just run the tap water till hot, put in the replacer, stir well, pour into bottles and feed. maybe everyone is feeding too rich or not rich enough, but mine never scoured, and only had problems if i was forced to change replacer brand. has worked for 6 years so...


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## Roll farms (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm not necessarily against replacer, I was responding to the "do not use cow milk" post.
IF you buy good replacer, meant for goats, and mix it right, and like the results....great.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Jan 30, 2010)

This morning the weather is very icey here and we have a Ice Storm WARNING now... great. 

I may have made this unclear before because I was busy and overwhelmed this week, but the doeling is the only one that the doe is rejecting. She is very partial to the buckling and she talks to him, nudges his rump, and allows him to nurse whenever he wants. 

The doe raised a single doe kid last year, so I don't know if this had anything to do with the rejection of one kid. Wonder if she just don't know she had 2 since she had 1 before? I don't know.

The doeling has made a huge improvment since yesterday morning. I really thought she was not going to make it since she was cold as ice (literally). I grabbed her up, put her in a clothes basket with a heat lamp, and took her to work with me (a high school). I got half way through the day before a student noticed her in the back of the classroom. Fun day!

It took her a while to warm up and then I tube fed her twice and the hubby gave her a shot of thaimine (Vit B). She's up walking around and butting everything this morning looking for something to eat. I'm so excited since I just KNEW she wasn't going to make it.

I have whole, homongenized milk and Purina replacer in the bucket. I went out and bought both yesterday afternoon after work since this bad weather was coming in. I'm mixing both together for the time being and she seems to like it. She won't drink out of a pritchard teet - she prefers the baby bottle.


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## Roll farms (Jan 30, 2010)

I use Caprine bucket nipples (bought from Jeffers) w/ our kids...the pritchard teats seemed too small for big boer mouths.  The caprine nips just pop onto a soda bottle, that way I can feed up to 20 oz w/out having to mess w/ multiple bottles / nipples for ea. kid.

http://www.caprinesupply.com/shop/?...1&ps_session=e11eaacdf03f2379f2e73c8003040fc7 

Just something to keep in mind for when she's really eating a lot.

I was just reading on a Yahoo list that apparently some goat mamas just refuse to raise more than one kid...they must feel like taking it easy.

Some would tell you that's nature saying there's something wrong w/ the doeling, but I don't believe that in all cases...I think some dams just don't want to be bothered / don't have super strong maternal instincts.

Again, I've never tried the Purina replacer....she may do just fine on it...but *if* her stool starts to soften at all, you might try taking her to straight milk and see if that helps.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 30, 2010)

> Some would tell you that's nature saying there's something wrong w/ the doeling, but I don't believe that in all cases...I think some dams just don't want to be bothered / don't have super strong maternal instincts.


is it true (i think i read this somewhere) that if the momma doesnt accept the babies to let your dog near so she can see him? that she might get more 'maternal' if there is a perceived danger???

also - maybe i missed this... why wouldnt you milk the momma for her milk? or its just easier to get cows milk then to fight an unhappy non-dairy goat??


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## lilhill (Jan 30, 2010)

I agree that sometimes you'll get a lazy doe that absolutely does not want to raise but one kid.  Had one of those and she had twins two years in a row and picked out the buckling each time to raise.  She would push the doeling off, toss it across the stall.  I raised the doeling each time on cows milk simply because it was too much of a fight to try to milk the doe.  The first year she pulled this stunt, I thought it was just a fluke.  The second year she did the same thing, she was sold.  There was nothing wrong with the babies she rejected ... she just didn't want to be bothered with raising them.  

I think if the doe makes up her mind to reject a kid, a dog being near won't make much difference.  She just won't do it.

Edited to make last sentence make some sort of sense.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 30, 2010)

> I don't think if the doe makes up her mind to reject a kid, a dog being near won't make much difference.  She just won't do it.


ahh.. got it. so you could say they are stubborn as old goats?


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## lilhill (Jan 31, 2010)

Some of them can be, yep!  This one definitely was.  My hubby hated that doe with a passion because she was so mean to her babies, except the one she decided to keep and raise.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 1, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I use Caprine bucket nipples (bought from Jeffers) w/ our kids...the pritchard teats seemed too small for big boer mouths.  The caprine nips just pop onto a soda bottle, that way I can feed up to 20 oz w/out having to mess w/ multiple bottles / nipples for ea. kid.
> 
> http://www.caprinesupply.com/shop/?...1&ps_session=e11eaacdf03f2379f2e73c8003040fc7


YES!  I can't recommend these highly enough..  They're absolutely FANTASTIC.    

We tried all kinds of nipples, but they always seem to take these lickity split..  The cool thing is, the older the nipple gets, the more supple it gets, and the more quickly a kid will take it.  

Those of you in or near Kentucky...I'd also recommend keeping a glass Ale-8-One bottle handy.  If you can find one somewhere (eBay?  I dunno..  ), they're super thick 12oz glass bottles, and they're a GODSEND when you're trying to teach a baby to nurse a bottle the first time.  

_Why?_

I'm so glad you asked!  

One of the biggest problems with trying to get most bottle babies to take that first bottle is that, as you're fighting with her, the milks getting cooler and cooler and cooler until, finally, you're not sure if the baby's rejecting it because it's weird or because it's _cold_.  It's really frustrating.  Well, glass is an insulator..  Glass holds heat..  If you take one of those big thick Ale-8-One bottles and drop it in hot tapwater for a few minutes (while the milk's heating, for instance), it will hold the temperature of your warmed milk for a very, very long time..  WAY longer than a flimsy plastic pop bottle!

That means you can fight and fight with the little brat without feeling pressured or frustrated to get her to nurse NOW because, hey...you've got time!  Combine the glass bottle with your most well-worn gray nipple and...c'mon...it's practically irresistable!

Anyway, these nipples are great.  Everybody should have a paper sack full of them, IMHO, and at least one 12oz glass Ale-8-One bottle..  

Seriously...try the thick glass bottle, guys...I promise you'll thank me.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 1, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Seriously...try the thick glass bottle, guys...I promise you'll thank me.


Do you ship to MD?


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## cmjust0 (Feb 1, 2010)

Not necessary.  

Most any _returnable_ 12oz bottle will work.  You're looking for something that requires a bottle opener..  If it's got a twist-off cap, it's no good...glass is too thin.  You're looking for something "old school."

If nothing else,  can usually find tons of old Pepsi bottles at flea markets and such for a couple bucks..  The thick, heavy ones should work just as well as an Ale-8 longneck....even though you won't get the added benefit of a refreshing soft drink with your purchase.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 2, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Not necessary.
> 
> Most any _returnable_ 12oz bottle will work.  You're looking for something that requires a bottle opener..  If it's got a twist-off cap, it's no good...glass is too thin.  You're looking for something "old school."
> 
> If nothing else,  can usually find tons of old Pepsi bottles at flea markets and such for a couple bucks..  The thick, heavy ones should work just as well as an Ale-8 longneck....even though you won't get the added benefit of a refreshing soft drink with your purchase.


We used to use regular glass soda bottles when we raised kids when I was in 4-H. THen they switched to plastic and I hated those stupid plastic bottles. Not only were they harder to clean, but the kids would suck so hard the sides would collapse in.    Pain in the butt.  It is possible to find some glass bottles every now and then. I'm going to have to keep an eye out.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 2, 2010)

You know, my father-in-law has probably NEVER thrown away a glass bottle in his life.  His basement is STACKED with these things!  Up until this very moment it was just annoying, but what do you know?!  I have 3 bottle babies this very moment and will give it a try.  Thanks!


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## cmjust0 (Feb 2, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> You know, my father-in-law has probably NEVER thrown away a glass bottle in his life.  His basement is STACKED with these things!  Up until this very moment it was just annoying, but what do you know?!  I have 3 bottle babies this very moment and will give it a try.  Thanks!


Something else that's cool about glass bottles and new babies is that the bottle isn't flexible, so you're not shooting milk all over hell and half georgia as you wrestle the kid around..  No more (or, at least, _far fewer_) milk-soaked baby heads, milk in eyes, milk in ears, choking/coughing from an inadvertant squeeze, etc..  

Glass bottles really do make it soooo much easier to get a new goatbaby started on a bottle, it's unbelievable.



Keep in mind, though, that I really _only_ use glass bottles for the first several feedings on new babies, just to hold the milk temp longer and give myself more time to battle it out with the little boogers.  Once they get familiar with the process of bottle feeding, you don't have to worry so much about them getting weirded out and rejecting a bottle as the milk gets cold (until they hit about 6wks, at which point they all seem to freak out for a minute).  

Once they're past taking 12oz at a time (which is pretty quick!), I go to regular ol' plastic 20oz (or 24oz, sometimes) pop bottles.

Incidentally, the best pop bottles I've found are -- you guessed it! -- 20oz Ale-8-One pop bottles!  The length of the threaded portion of Coke-product bottles is about half the size it used to be, and Pepsi-product bottles are PAPER THIN these days (...don't even _think_ about an aquafina bottle!...).  I'm sure it's just a cost-savings measure for the bottlers, but what a PITA for bottle feeders..  :/

Ale-8, though, still uses a full size cap and much thicker, heavier plastic.  They actually last a good long while before being crushed to the point of useless deformity.....which, of course, is the fate of any plastic pop bottle used to bottle feed kids.

At least with a better bottle, though, there's less $$$ wasted on soda from constantly having to replace cheap bottles.


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## Roll farms (Feb 2, 2010)

The only time we buy pop is to replenish our bottles....Although I've been known to dig them out of the trash at work  

I get a 32 oz fountain pop in a cup on the days I work and nurse it all day.  The rest of the time I just drink water, milk, iced tea, etc.

I always go buy a 12 pack of 20 oz. coke right before kidding season, though.

I rinse all our 'used' bottles in bleach water once a week to help remove the milkstone funk that builds up in them.

Pepsi and Coke also make those handy little 12 oz bottles.
One of the tea companies and some place that makes orange pop puts theirs out in 16.9 oz - sized bottles.  I like those for the in-between kids, who can't take 20 oz. but need more than the 12 oz. bottles.

Which, by the way...are awesome for colostrum freezing....fill 'em w/ it, put 'em in the freezer, defrost in hot water when you see someone's in labor.

eta....It strikes me that CM and I know wayyyy too much about soda bottles....


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## cmjust0 (Feb 2, 2010)

No kidding..  (pun intended)


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 3, 2010)

Well, good news! I have found a WONDERFUL home for the doeling. She is going to a 14-year-old girl that is mentally handicapped. Her 30 year old horse was put down in December and she has been depressed. I'm so excited that she is going to such a great place. They have plenty of room and experience with animals. Yay!


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## ksalvagno (Feb 3, 2010)

That is great news! Congratulations!


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