# Climbing climbing



## Skiesblue (Apr 24, 2018)

I have a two year old Anatolian x Black Mouthed Cur (yes that’s a breed). A rescue with zero history. After a bumpy start he settled in and guards well. Too well. We are under siege from the largest coyotes I’ve ever seen. Unfortunately they have managed a kill and return regularly. Dog is after them like a jet but won’t stop at the perimeter fence. Climbs right over. He pursues for a couple of minutes then comes back. I wish I could tell him “this far, no farther.” Any suggestions?


----------



## secuono (Apr 24, 2018)

Electric on top, very, very hot. Possibly also slanted inward. 
Someone else should have more ideas.


----------



## Wehner Homestead (Apr 24, 2018)

Electric! Lock everyone in a smaller, container area at night. Get another dog for help. He needs backup! 

Not the most experienced LGD owner so I’ll defer to them for more.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 24, 2018)

And a 30-06 for the coyotes.


----------



## Wehner Homestead (Apr 24, 2018)

X2


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 24, 2018)

I didn’t describe my fencing. We added Hogwire to an existing 4 strand elderly barb wire fence. Then a strand of new barb wire on top which he ignores. I don’t know much about electric fences but I think it would be too expensive for us. Unfortunately the t posts aren’t taller so there’s no support for additional wire of any kind. Plus we’re talking several hundred feet. He has 2 backup dogs. The attacks occur during the day when the flock is out of the safe pen grazing. The coyotes don’t care if we’re out working they just grab and jump the fence and disappear into the woods. I’m inexperienced w guns. I need to find a range and change that. But there are neighbors and livestock around so gun isn’t my first go-to.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 24, 2018)

Skiesblue said:


> I don’t know much about electric fences but I think it would be too expensive for us.


The least expensive fence there is--you only need one strand. Get good wire, banjo string tight and you won't need many insulators either.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 24, 2018)

Skiesblue said:


> But there are neighbors and livestock around so gun isn’t my first go-to.


Target acquisition and bullet placement...lots of livestock on my place and I've fired thousands of rounds. Have yet to shoot a cow, tho I've had a few I wanted to.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 24, 2018)

Practice till you can hit what you aim at. Then only shoot what you intend to kill. I agree with the hot wire. You can buy "step in" fiberglass wire posts that you can attach to the existing T-posts.


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 24, 2018)

Here he is a couple of months ago. He’s a smart dog and I hate to bust him to yard duty.


----------



## secuono (Apr 24, 2018)

Most expensive part is the energizer. The plugin ones work better than solar and are cheaper. You can use those fiberglass poles to make the fence taller. Or take down the top barbwire, which nothing respects it really, and put the hot wire there. Or leave it and get the 5in offset insulators and put the hotwire on that.


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 24, 2018)

My husband and I are discussing how to work this. Just a lot of fence involved. Thanks everyone!


----------



## mystang89 (Apr 24, 2018)

I agree. I had a problem with my dog not caring about my fence to until I got hot wire. No more problem. I hope you're able to find a solution soon.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 24, 2018)

What everybody else said. You have a very handsome dog. Black Mouth Cur dogs are darn good dogs and you have a good one!


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 24, 2018)

Gosh... you have an LGD that chases off coyotes and you want to take him away from the livestock and relegate him to yard duty? That just seems wrong somehow. Hope you can get it figured out and make it work so he can continue to do what he obviously likes to do. He's a great looking dog.


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 24, 2018)

Thank you for the compliments. I’m partial to him and he’s good natured. He is an Anatolian Black Mouth hybrid though. I don’t think BM’s are recommended as LGDs although they have wonderful qualities. We think we can electrify the pens around the barn, giving him a secure area and giving my two older LGDs some down time and some time to train a pup. I have a good pasture dog and the elders can rotate. Any opinions on coyote hybridization w southern wolves?  I see every opinion- yes , no, maybe.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 24, 2018)

By 'southern wolf' I assume you are talking about a red wolf?
They were, from the beginning, a taxonomic hybridization between coyote and gray wolf. They are extremely rare.


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 25, 2018)

I’ve read about red wolves. Neighbors tell me this area had wolves (presumably red) in the past. I grew up in the rural Midwest and I’ve seen coyotes alive and dead. These are taller, light tan in color and brazen. Could be everything’s bigger in Texas coyotes. Anyhow it’s game on for the dogs.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Apr 25, 2018)

Don't get me started about the so called "red wolf"


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 25, 2018)

The only coyotes I've seen in my area of NE TX is the standard sized ones... maybe 45-50 pounds. I understand that in the far northern states there are coywolves where there were not sufficient wolves so they've interbred with coyotes and they are the size of a German Shepherd... 70-80 pounds. I've also heard of coydog crosses that are also larger, but again, haven't seen any here.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 25, 2018)

I rarely see a coyote any more, tho we hear them nightly. 
I'm not much on running predators of any kind off to raise havoc with my neighbors and they are of the same mind. We kill every one we see. 
I've never seen a wolf of any kind here, but have when I lived farther NW of here, but it was hangin on a fence.

I don't know of anyone around here that has a 'LGD' breed dog or any kind of dog as a designated LGD. 
It takes 2 bits to feed my SKS, just a little more for the .270 and they never have to go to the vet.

The last coyote I saw here was injured and starving, and I put him down and buried him deep.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 25, 2018)

Skiesblue said:


> Plus we’re talking several hundred feet.


That is nothing in hot wire. And you can get both front and back standoff insulators for T-posts. One wire inside to discourage the dog from going over, one on the outside for the coyotes. My understanding is that it is pretty rare for either to test the fence a second time. 

Your dog is clearly doing his job plus he is NOT running off when he does go over, even returning on his own. No way I would want to confine that dog to a smaller area.


----------



## secuono (Apr 25, 2018)

greybeard said:


> I rarely see a coyote any more, tho we hear them nightly.
> I'm not much on running predators of any kind off to raise havoc with my neighbors and they are of the same mind. We kill every one we see.
> I've never seen a wolf of any kind here, but have when I lived farther NW of here, but it was hangin on a fence.
> 
> ...



Wow, poor thing! Thanks for ending his suffering.


OP
The wire is cheap.
If you get good corner insulators, and have a fairly level fence, you can put insulators on every other or third post instead of each one, saving money.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 26, 2018)

> Plus we’re talking several hundred feet.





Bruce said:


> That is nothing in hot wire. And you can get both front and back standoff insulators for T-posts. One wire inside to discourage the dog from going over, one on the outside for the coyotes. My understanding is that it is pretty rare for either to test the fence a second time.


Several years ago, I had one straight run that was 2200'  then 90 deg turn for 775', then back up the other side 2200' again. Tensioned the 2200' runs with one pull on a 8' cable comealong. The 775' run had several bends along the river so it took several different pulls. 
An insulator every 75-95 feet.  12.5 ga HT 200,000 PSI stretched tight as could be. 
4000' roll of wire was about $100 at TSC. 

I think they sell small rolls tho.
I can't recommend the 17 or 14 ga or even the 12.5 ga aluminized stuff...you'll pull it in half before you get it tight and it won't stay tight anyway. I tried some of it around the pasture behind the house. 

I didn't feel one bit sorry for that coyote. Someone else had either leg shot him or he got caught in a leg trap on someone's property. They have 163,000 acres of national forest to run in. They just need to not cross a fence and they'll be fine. 
(he WAS in bad shape tho, barely looked up at me when I walked up on him near one of the ponds..no telling when the last time he ate. Double wrapped him in contractor trash bags and buried him deep with the backhoe)


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 26, 2018)

Thanks for the info. 12.5 gauge the best. I think we will start w the smaller safe pen then branch out. He follows me around at chore time and gets pasture time when we can watch him. Hes been fine. I just don’t want him getting hit by a car or shot by someone who doesn’t recognize him.


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 28, 2018)

So today was operation hot fence. Need better grounding. I’ve kept my flock off the big pasture and no trouble. Dog got out today but chasing coyotes and came right  back but couldn’t be convinced to climb back over. So the frog march back home. We will heat up the fence tomorrow and hopefully close this chapter.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 28, 2018)

that it all goes according to plan.


----------



## Skiesblue (Apr 29, 2018)

Fence is hot and they ( he and the other gymnast) have figured it out. I missed the aha! moment but they are sitting at the fence giving me the stink eye. At least they’re contained.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 29, 2018)




----------



## Baymule (Apr 29, 2018)

That is so funny! I busted out laughing!


----------



## Wehner Homestead (Apr 30, 2018)

Love the moments when you know what they are thinking!! I can picture it. I’d have trouble not laughing hysterically! Lol


----------



## mystang89 (May 1, 2018)

Really glad the fence worked!


----------



## Skiesblue (May 1, 2018)

Well he’s laughing at me today. He shimmied up a stack of square bales and spent the night out but not over the perimeter. I’ve had no further losses but coyotes are seen in the neighborhood day and night.


----------



## Wehner Homestead (May 1, 2018)

They are independent thinkers...


----------



## Bruce (May 1, 2018)

Skiesblue said:


> Well he’s laughing at me today.


And you are surprised at that? No way he's going to let you win without a fight.


----------



## Latestarter (May 2, 2018)

And the battle of wits is ongoing...    Hmmmm wonder if we can electrify the hay?


----------



## Sonja (May 2, 2018)

We have a lot of coyotes in our area. We had a single Great Pyrenees who just couldn't keep up with the wiley beast. A coyote would stalk the barnyard so she'd give chase, then another would sneak into the yard an enjoy a chicken buffet.
We got her two helpers (GPx Anatolian) and she trained them to their duties. It took me a few months to realize how organized their defense is at night.  Lead dog patrols property & chases away threats. One dog guards the barnyard & hens, the other is stationed at the goat & geese pen. This is something the dogs worked out on their own and we haven't had any close coyote activity in months. I've found possum, armadillo, and skunk carcasses☠ that the dogs seem proud to display in my front yard. Now if they could just figure out a way to get rid of the hawks & owls we'd be all good.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 2, 2018)

The three backups just chased off a coyote (30 min before sunset). Himself wasn’t able to participate. Thank God for LGDs and thank God for the rescue that started the training.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 2, 2018)

^my dogs watch for hawks but I don’t know how to start a dog they just noticed. Owls no. I had a lot of trouble w the dogs and young chickens but they outgrew it. When I first got LGDs I underestimated how smart and sensitive they are. What an education I’ve had. Wouldn’t have missed it for the world.


----------



## Baymule (May 2, 2018)

My female Great Pyrenees leaps in the air snapping and barking at buzzards and hawks. She hates them.


----------



## lilipansy (May 3, 2018)

Could you please post a picture of your new electric fence set up?  I'm trying to learn about these types of electric fences.  Thank you!

Btw, I love your dog!


----------



## Ridgetop (May 3, 2018)

After several years our LGD bitch starting getting out.  She would come around to the front gate to come back into the yard.  We were very upset since although she (for an Anatolian) is pretty gentle with humans, we did not want her teaching the male (who is very sharp) how to get out. 

When Rika began getting out of the yard I called our breeder to ask about it since she had not tried to get out before.  He told me that the predator threat must have increased and the coyotes were no longer being warned off by the 2 LGDs.  We only have 6 acres, but all around us the Creek fires in December have burned off the natural cover and now the coyotes are having trouble finding food.  The coyotes have become very bold.  A coyote took a beautiful ram that we were saving as a breeder during the day when both dogs were locked up while workmen repaired our roof. 

Erick said that Rika probably got out to chase off the predator threat and then came back inside the fence once the threat was gone.  From the way you describe your dog's behavior, and the size and number of coyotes around you, that is what is happening.  It sounds as though you have a big coyote problem.  The Anatolian/BMC sounds as though he has fantastic guardian skills and is doing a great job.  Getting out is a problem although since he comes right back it sounds like he is just chasing the coyotes off.  He is a great looking dog and reminds me of our male Anatolian.  Locking him up would be a shame since he is doing just what he is supposed to be doing.  Hopefully the electric wire will work.  Just remember to check it everyday since different things can cause it to short out or shut off.  Our hot wires used to shut off in the dead of night and the livestock would wake us up as they came crowding past our bedroom windows on the way to the feed barn!

In our case, we had already lined the base of the lower fence with lengths of chain link stretched inside along the ground with dirt and rocks on top.  However because we are on a very steep gully dirt sloughs in and in some places the 5' fence is now 3-4'.  We decided she must be going over.  We bought taller posts and fastened them to the current 5' posts (the fence is made of oil pipe with no climb wire) and began stringing 4' high no climb above the current fencing wire to make the fence 8'+ tall thinking she as going over it.  Got the area we though she was getting out at done and let her out.  A week later she was out again.  After searching the fence line for days we found a hole at the end of the base wire patch where a coyote had dug in.   We filled it with rocks.  Ok for several days then she was out again.   Checked the fence and found some holes under the fence further along the _top_ of the gorge fencing (almost inaccessible to us where the coyotes had dug in from outside.  Had to buy another couple of rolls of chain link, separate into sections and drape across the hill at the base of the fence.  While doing this we kept her locked up and just the male loose.  We finally finished the chain link across the base f the fence and my husband plans to put logs on the outside of the fence too.  We still have to finish raising the fence on the other half of the acreage with higher pipes and wire.  Then we will do the bottom of some of the unaffected areas with the chain link.  It is expensive, but in our area we have a hard time going around the perimeter fence to check hotwire and can't shoot coyotes easily since we are inside city limits.  When we are done, the fence will be 8' high and nothing can dig under the fence.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 4, 2018)

^lilipansy. Our electric fence is just a garden variety feed store charger, wire and yellow insulators. We used two kinds of insulators one fits on top of the t post and a five inch extender. There are great videos on YouTube on what to buy and how to install. Had we known how easy it is we would have done it long ago.  Update he had a good night guarding the safe pen and didn’t get out although he could have. We are fine tuning some spots.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 5, 2018)

Well out again. I am beginning to think he’s more trouble than he’s worth. I don’t say that lightly and tomorrow morning I’ll be ready to fine tune fence. But there is a limit       
 he appears to have gone under. Well we’ll see how it goes.


----------



## Latestarter (May 6, 2018)

Really hope he doesn't wear out his welcome...


----------



## Simpleterrier (May 6, 2018)

I'd put a string of electric about 8 inches off the ground on the inside and outside of the fence also that will stop the diging


----------



## Skiesblue (May 6, 2018)

A good nights sleep was really helpful. I’m not so colicky. Fence is hot and a panel put back in place. I never say never but I wouldn’t get rid of him. I have to remind myself that it’s his nature and very likely the reason he was in a rescue to begin with. Interviewing a new dog today as I’ve got Seniors ready to retire.


----------



## Latestarter (May 6, 2018)

Glad you've gotten that bind out of your knickers...  He really does sound like a very good LGD... Just trying to do his job and move the threats away (FAR away). Good luck with the upcoming interview process!


----------



## Baymule (May 6, 2018)

The biggest problem dogs make the best dogs. he is just highly intelligent and 100% committed to his job. It just comes down to teaching him his boundaries. 

I have a male Great Pyrenees, Trip. He jumped out one time and I read him the riot act daily for weeks. I walked him around the pasture he jumped out of, shaking the fence and scolding. He hung his head, squinted his eyes and grinned. Honestly, it was hard not to laugh. I called him to me, praised him and marched him to the next length of fence. Rinse-repeat. He has never jumped OUT again, but he will jump the interior fences. 

Your dog is smart, he just needs to know that it is not ok to jump OUT. Hang in there, together you and him will figure it out.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 7, 2018)

Well the ol lady pyr got in the act and tore a hole in the inexpensive hog wire letting everyone under into another pasture but no one breached the hot perimeter. Fixed that now. I have the uneasy feeling there are more brains in the pasture than presently in the house  with my husband at work.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 8, 2018)

A good night everyone was where I left em.


----------



## Latestarter (May 13, 2018)




----------



## Skiesblue (May 14, 2018)

He has declined two more opportunities to get out of an untreated fence. Coyotes waiting in the brush the last two mornings but no lamb chops for them. Guineas also  in on the act. Nothing says ha ha like a guinea....


----------



## Baymule (May 14, 2018)

Sounds like he is figuring out where he belongs.....thanks to a zap or two from the fence!


----------



## Skiesblue (May 14, 2018)

He had a squabble with the Old Lady Pyr but they dropped it when the coyotes started the howl and prowl (sunset tonight). She overnights as a trainer then shamelessly snoozes under the dining room table after breakfast. Our new dog looks very promising. A rescue with goat experience. Sheep will be different for him but he has dogs to train him. I have no idea about introducing him to the hot fence having not had one til a couple of weeks ago.  Advice?


----------



## Latestarter (May 14, 2018)

Harsh but he has to learn on his own... Just like your already dogs had to. IMHO, Introduce him to his new digs and workmates and let things take their course. Really glad that the hot wire has seemingly corrected the most serious issues you had, at a reasonable cost.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 14, 2018)

Yeah it’s all about having them on the inside of the fence.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

Well the adventure continues. Climbin’ Simon has abandoned the over technique in favor of going thru the fence. First the backstory. My neighbor shot and wounded a coyote this morning just the other side of our fence. I’m guessing the blood odor was too tempting and away CS went. But thankfully not far. After a nose sniff with the neighbor’s small dog (probably what the coyote was after) he was more than ready to be home. I had to hike back to the house after securing him with a leash to get bigger wire cutters because nothing short of snipping would get him back thru the hole.   I maneuver him thru the enlarged hole with an elderly ewe scolding. Did I mention it was about 90 degrees ditto humidity and a thunderstorm was perking? I’m sweating like a dam and rethinking dog ownership when he’s back across. He goes to our pond for a dip, dragging the leash. Belly deep and blissfully cooler he glances around and spots the floating leash. Perhaps he saw that part of Lonesome Dove with the water moccasins. To say he catapulted out of the water would not be an exaggeration. Clearly that trailing leash was dangerous and he barreled back toward his stall only to hit the hot wire. It was off but based on his reaction you wouldn’t have guessed. He is presently under the truck getting sympathy from the younger dogs and a loud “huff” from the ol Lady Pyr.


----------



## Bruce (May 15, 2018)

Stupid question I suppose, but why did you have to damage the fence instead of just walking the dog home AROUND the fence??


----------



## BrendaMNgri (May 15, 2018)

_"I have a two year old Anatolian x Black Mouthed Cur (yes that’s a breed). A rescue with zero history."_
Black Mouth Curs are a herding and hunting breed very similar to Catahoula Leopard Dogs (which I once raised.) They have high
prey drive, and are not LGDs.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

Bruce said:


> Stupid question I suppose, but why did you have to damage the fence instead of just walking the dog home AROUND the fence??


He was fenced in. Gate padlocked and he wasn’t climbing over. The place he got thru was more patch than fencecutting a couple of wires no big deal. Put a makeshift gate in place.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

BrendaMNgri said:


> _"I have a two year old Anatolian x Black Mouthed Cur (yes that’s a breed). A rescue with zero history."_
> Black Mouth Curs are a herding and hunting breed very similar to Catahoula Leopard Dogs (which I once raised.) They have high
> prey drive, and are not LGDs.


I understand but it’s working. I wouldn’t recommend BMC for LGD work.


----------



## BrendaMNgri (May 15, 2018)

This is not what I would consider "working":_ "Dog is after them like a jet but won’t stop at the perimeter fence. Climbs right over."_
What I am trying to say to you is, you have a dog that is half BMC. 
You yourself just said, _"I wouldn’t recommend BMC for LGD work."_
Nor would I. Nor would I have a half BMC for guardian work.
I would not have any non-LGD cross for guardian work. Too risky.
This dog is an example why.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

Brenda I have nothing but respect for you. I will not argue with you.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

You do understand it was coyotes he was after. And he came back. If I am not mistaken there are other posts about full blooded LGDs breaching fences after predators. They all roam with incentive and I believe predator pressure ranks pretty high. I use rescued dogs often hybrids.  I’ve caught a lot of flack for that. I don’t care. It’s sad that there are so many situations that put LGDs into rescue and so little spay neuter.  I have the patience to work them in. It’s not for everybody.


----------



## Simpleterrier (May 15, 2018)




----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

I like Brenda’s YouTube vids I’ve learned a lot from them. I’m just in a different place. I’d eat popcorn but the kernels.


----------



## Simpleterrier (May 15, 2018)

I think there is different ways to do things if your bmc cross works for you then that is great. Maybe we could just call him a livestock protection dog instead???

So some people won't take offense or defense


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

Sure. I’m game. And he won’t take a pay cut.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (May 15, 2018)

My Anatolian has gone over fences after we had a bobcat spend a little too much time next door...he's also gone over fences to visit his favorite kid (human) who lives next door.  He doesn't go over them anymore because he got an electric fence for Christmas!


----------



## Skiesblue (May 15, 2018)

Congrats on his b-day present. It will keep things out too. They are good dogs.


----------



## Bruce (May 16, 2018)

Skiesblue said:


> Sure. I’m game. And he won’t take a pay cut.


Seems to me he should get a raise with the new title. There are lots of LGDs but LPDs? He may be the first to get that title, makes him special


----------



## Simpleterrier (May 16, 2018)

Maybe an lpd will be the new and improved version of the lgd. You know had to add a little bit of good old made in the USA with the cur blood to make it even better with an lgd.


----------



## BrendaMNgri (May 17, 2018)

Skiesblue said:


> Brenda I have nothing but respect for you. I will not argue with you.


Not my intent to argue or stir the pot, just trying to get people to think beyond the shallow aspects of the use and understanding of these great dogs.

The term "LPD" by the way was promoted by the Government and USDA over "LGD," some time back, and that was why I do not use it.
I do not like the Gov nosing in on my ranching and LGDs and to date their efforts at "LPD" education and use, have not impressed me.

I think you recognize your situation and are not avoiding the facts of your choice, @Skiesblue and I commend you for that. Continued success to you.


----------



## Ridgetop (May 17, 2018)

Dogs getting out of fenced property is not a good thing.  First, because they are not _with _the livestock any more (can't guard the animals) , second because they can get out in a road and get run over (loss of an expensive and valuable member of the farm), third because an adjacent farmer can shoot them if they are on his property (if he sees a dog running through his pasture he is not going to check whose dog it is before protecting his livestock - would you?). 

If the dog is continually getting out, you have only a few choices:
1.


----------



## Ridgetop (May 17, 2018)

Sorry, hit wrong key.

If the dog is continually getting out, you have only a few choices:

1.Fix your fences after identifying the location.  If over it raise the fence, if under it barricade so he can't dig, if through it  re-fence with stronger fencing.

If the dog is getting out because of extreme predator behavior, you need to control the predators.  If your regulations allow, shoot or trap them.  If this is impossible, you may need more _working_ LGDs.  You said yours are old except for this one.  He may have more work than he can handle.  You got a new puppy who needs training, so there is more pressure for this dog to protect everything including this young immature dog.  An immature dog is more trouble to a well trained mature dog because it gets in the way of the trained one when he is working.  In stead of helping him, he is often likely to impede his efforts.

You need to identify the fence problems and repair them.  Then you need to identify why the dog is leaving the fenced premises.

Some dogs just like to leave their fenced boundaries.  If the dog continues to get out, you may have to get rid of the dog before it teaches your other dogs to do the same.


----------



## Skiesblue (May 17, 2018)

@BrendaMNgri  thank you. If I was a little prickly it’s because I’ve been lashed by breeders for using rescues. And I value your opinion. I truly wish bitches had fewer pups. And I wish people were more thoughtful when then acquire a dog of any sort. LGDs are so smart I just saw a horrible waste and I act on it when I can. I think we are all on the same page. And hey today he watched everything no problem.
Thank God he doesn’t have thumbs or a credit card.


----------



## Ridgetop (May 18, 2018)

I applaud your desire to help these rescues.  Your dogs are lucky to have found an owner with such a kind heart.  If you can train them to do the job you want, then more power to you.  Many rescues turn out to be fantastic dogs.  Some rescues are not able to be retrained.  Remember_ in all instances_ the previous owner trained the dog to be what it has become.  Bad breeding plays a part too.  I agree with BrendaMNegri about the drawbacks of crossbreds from completely differently varieties.  Herding dogs are bred to round up and chase, hunting dog to hunt and pull down game, crossed with an LGD you now have an LGD who wants to chase the animals it is supposed to be quietly protecting.  That is a very bad cross.  Occasionally you will get one that takes after one parent or the other, but who knows.  If you have one that is a good LGD then be thankful and keep up the training.  Your dog looks very Anatolian - are you sure it is a cross?

Sadly, there are way too many "rescue" dogs out there.  Most from unneutered dogs but many, many from people that think just because they own  2 "purebred" dogs they are entitled or knowledgeable enough to breed them.  They think they will make big bucks selling them because they paid whatever for theirs.  Then they offer no help to the new owners about training, etc.  I showed and trained dogs for many years.  I have bred very few litters of puppies.  I know that it is far cheaper to pay a high price for the right dog from a reputable breeder than to breed a litter.  Well bred LGDs from good breeders reflect the money that has gone into the parents, feeding, vet care, vaccinations, early training, etc.  (Just ask Southern LOL!)

I don't breed puppies anymore because I need to be sure where my puppies go and that the new owners are knowledgeable about _everything including the drawbacks of the breed.  _In LGDs lots of barking and difficult to obedience train - not good for neighborhoods; hunting dogs like to hunt - the neighbor's cat maybe; long haired dogs - lots of shedding - you get the idea.  Every breed has its purpose and drawbacks and the people that love them deal with those drawbacks and enjoy the things that make their breed what it is.

I have taken back my dogs when they didn't work out, retrained them, and placed them with good owners but most people don't.  Then with the inevitable behavior problems they end up in a shelter.  I neuter my dogs now, even the show quality ones because I don't want more pups out there that may get into the wrong hands.  I have put down animals that were too badly damaged and couldn't be placed.  I hope this doesn't sound cruel, and I know it may upset some people, but I sleep better at night knowing any animals I have bred are not in bad hands or abandoned.  I'll get off my soap box now and I am probably preaching to the choir anyway..

In the end, we all need to remember what works for one does not work for the other and we are all here to help each other in whatever way we can even if it is just with moral support!  Good luck!


----------



## Skiesblue (May 22, 2018)




----------



## Skiesblue (May 22, 2018)

Who photobombed who?


----------



## BrendaMNgri (May 22, 2018)

I am reading some good things in this thread here today, and I am glad for it. @Skiesblue no offense taken at all. I do wonder why so many people put trust in a cross of non-LGD with LGD because they do result in unpredictable dogs that may = MAY= or may not, work out like you would hope. It takes ten times the patience and time and training typically, with a rescue dog. I agree with @Ridgetop as well in her well put post, it takes someone with huge patience and hope to rescue LGDs and the risk is high. It does look like you've had better luck than worse, @Skiesblue and you are to be commended for that.

@Ridgetop I too have pretty much stopped breeding my dogs. Most of it from old age (my own LOL and my dogs, many of whom are past the breeding age now) - plus many twists and turns that are part of the risk factor when you try to breed anything. I've had enough bad luck to fill a swimming pool, but I keep picking myself up and trudging on. I don't like what I see going on in the LGD world where too many people don't seem content just to responsibly own and use them, no, they think they have to breed them, too. Thus many LGD breeds are being ruined in this country by fad breeders, irresponsible breeders, people who use the dogs for social status and gain. I could go on and on but I'll spare you. I know others see it too and know what I'm talking about.

I care too much about my dogs. I expect customers to keep in touch and when they won't, it rankles me something bad. I don't have to worry about that right now. I'm hunkered down on my ranch all summer starving to death more or less on my retirement and pushing to get my LGD book done and published and out there for folks to read. I see more people who need the use and understanding advice more than puppies, frankly. That's where my energy is going. The book will be remembered far longer than any puppy I put out.

I think so much of what makes for success with these dogs - hell, with livestock too - is being able to admit when you screwed up or did wrong, take that step back, and try Plan B. And not think its the end of the world, but "empty your cup" so you can fill it again with new knowledge, maybe better knowledge, and keep on trying.


----------



## Baymule (May 22, 2018)

@BrendaMNgri when you finish your book, be sure to let me know, so I can buy it! 

I agree with not breeding, it would make no sense for me to breed my 2 Great Pyrenees. Having a litter of 10 puppies when all I want is one puppy makes np sense at all. I'm happy to let some one else do all the puppy litter work. LOL


----------



## Skiesblue (May 22, 2018)

I had dogs I wanted to breed, was encouraged to breed. I didn’t want to but I stepped back. It was about them. Where would they go?  I was told they’re just dogs make money. I’m not some righteous person not at all. But dogs mean something to me.They should be cared for and have jobs.


----------



## Baymule (May 23, 2018)




----------

