# How old should your buck be?



## that's*satyrical (Apr 7, 2012)

Before he is ready to go? Should you limit how many does he is bred to til he gets to a certain age? My guy was born last August & he tries to breed the babies all the time but seems intimidated by the older does.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 8, 2012)

If you have a huge herd, then you would probably want to limit the breedings with a younger male. But if you have a small herd, then it probably wouldn't matter. Not sure on age. They aren't fully mature until age 2 or 3 but people are fully using them before then.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks Karen. This is my little guy. I can't wait to see what kind of babies we get from him. Hoping for polled, blue eyed kids that grow up to have gorgeous udders & nice conformation. Don't want much eh? lol He has the genetics for it so I think he can do it!  Here is a pic of him.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 8, 2012)

My Boer bucking was born end of January 2011, and he bred a couple of does in July, when he was 6 months old. His first doe produced triplets! Most of the does were pulled out to get ready to go to fair, so he didn't breed any others.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 8, 2012)

Wow I guess his parts were working well enough to throw triplets!! lol That is good to hear.


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## elevan (Apr 8, 2012)

The quantity of kids isn't determined by the buck but by the doe.  The buck determines gender.  

They can be sexually viable as early as 8 weeks.  I would think that 6 months would be a minimum that I would attempt to purposely use a buck.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 8, 2012)

He is 7 1/2 months.  I would like to use him soon. The buck would still need to get 3 healthy spermies to fertilize the eggs though so he does determine the number a little bit. If the doe produces 4 healthy viable eggs & only one healthy sperm makes it to fertilize one of the eggs you would only have a singleton. The other 3 eggs would just die off.


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## redtailgal (Apr 8, 2012)

Actually thats satyrical any male that only put out 1 healthy sperm would be declared sterile.

A teaspoon of ejaculate contains many thousands of sperm (and according to the link provided below, in a weeks time a male goat can produce as mush as 25 BILLION sperms).  This is why AI has become so popular.......many females can be serviced from the sperm from one ejaculate session.

It's like the male says "GREAT! Lets have 25 billion kids, but then the female trumps him by only putting out three eggs, and allow those eggs to choose the most viable sperm out of the millions.




http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/goats/Reso  enNuti.pdf   edited to correct the link: http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/goats/Resources/GoatArticles/GoatGeneticsRepro/GoatSemenNuti.pdf


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 9, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Actually thats satyrical any male that only put out 1 healthy sperm would be declared sterile.
> 
> A teaspoon of ejaculate contains many thousands of sperm (and according to the link provided below, in a weeks time a male goat can produce as mush as 25 BILLION sperms).  This is why AI has become so popular.......many females can be serviced from the sperm from one ejaculate session.
> 
> ...


True, but I didn't say he only HAD one healthy sperm, I said only one made it to fertilize one of the eggs   And technically the egg doesn't choose the sperm it's the first one to eat through the vitelline membrane that surrounds the egg, generally the strongest of the batch. The chances of only one making it would be greater if there were less to begin with, so that would be my concern with using a younger buck. That he wouldn't have enough yet to get the job done.


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## AdoptAPitBull (Apr 9, 2012)

You may also want to wait till at least 8 months or when you can see his conformation developing as an adult. Sometimes they look perfect as a kid, and grow up a little awkward. If you breed too early, you may have just introduced a fault to your future kids that you weren't fully aware was there. Just something to think about.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 9, 2012)

Well we are only a couple weeks shy of 8 mos & he looks pretty good to me so I don't think that will be a problem but it is a thought. He actually looks better to me the older he gets, I think it's because he's maturing more into a buck & losing some of that kid look. I will be shaving him down any day now (waiting for my clippers to get here) can't wait!!!


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## redtailgal (Apr 9, 2012)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, we are gonna have to have a difference of opinions on this.  In medical school, I learned that the egg very much decided which egg to accept, and that "the sperm eating thru the membrane" is a myth.  The egg decides and literally opens up to allow that sperm in.  This was taught to me from many scientist/professors and we saw microscopic slides and miscroscopic videos to back it up.  It would take a lot to disprove what I've seen with my own eyes, lol.

Thats ok, though.  If two people agree on everything, then one of them is not necessary.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 9, 2012)

Really. That is interesting. Every pic/video I've ever seen has shown the sperm eating at the outside of the egg & the one that gets all the way through first is the one that fertilizes it. Also learned that the sperm eating at the outside of the membrane helps prepare the egg for fertilization. How can you tell that the egg is deciding which one to let in? (curious, not being a SA) In a similar way supposedly a hen can decide which rooster fertilizes her egg.


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## redtailgal (Apr 9, 2012)

Well, every species decided which male to use.....each species has its its own method of choosing a mate.....perhaps a certain dance as in some birds, lionesses like males with darker mane (dark mane show higher testosterone), and a hen is no diffferent......she chooses the male that she likes the best because for some reason she feels that his offspring has a high chance of survival, perhaps his spurs are longer, maybe he finds better food etc.  It's been shown in the animal world, that the males chosen usually have a higher testosterone level, making them stronger, more fit and better at survival.  The wild horse with the biggest harem, the snake that wins the fight etc etc.

But when they breed, the male releases thousands of sperm into her reproductive system.  One example that was present to me was the "lock and key".  The egg is surrounded by a membrane that is coated with a certain chemical. When the male releases thousands of sperm, many of those sperm die before they can reach the egg, thus starting the whole "survival of the fittest".  Only a couple thousand of the strongest sperm reach the egg.  EACH sperm tried diligently to open that egg, literally by "knocking" on it with their head.

At this point, of the few thousand that I have made it this far, saveral hundred will be strong enough to knock of a "cap" that sits on the very end.  Once that cap is off, the egg can read the chemical make up of each individual sperm.  The sperm that the egg chooses must have a certain chemical secrection, it's this chemical that caused her to open up, allow THAT sperm in, and then reclose.  The other sperm cannot enter, because their secretion does not stimulate the egg.

If it were a matter of the sperm eating and digesting its way in, then there would be nothing to prevent multiple sperm from entering the egg to begin with, and nothing to stop more sperm from entering after the egg has been fertilized.  The sperm cannot eat its way it...it would leave a hole that would allow other sperm to enter.  The egg must open up and allow that sperm in, then reseal itself to prevent further sperm from entering.

Once the egg has been penetrated, the membrane is deploarized, thus preventing more sperm from entering, and this chemical process is what caused the nuclei of the egg to divide the first time.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 9, 2012)

Well the way we were taught once the sperm penetrated the egg there was a chemical reaction that would seal the egg off so other sperm could not unite with the egg. It wouldn't surprise me if there were certain chemicals in the sperm where the egg would be attracted to one & deny another. So you're saying that the 1st one that makes it in can be denied & the egg can wait & choose another one to accept into it?  Obviously it's not fail proof though since genetic disorders like Turner's, Klinefelter's, Down's Syndrome etc. still exist. I will have to look into this it interests me. I did not go to med school but I did minor in Biology in college so I have a basic idea of this stuff. I certainly had the grades to go too bad I didn't have the money lol. It's fascinating.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 9, 2012)

I say any time the buck is physically able to breed, then he's ready.  I used a buck kid that was 6 or 7 mos and he did a great job.  Some take a little longer to mature, but they'll tell you when they're ready!

And I agree w/ Redtail on the female determining number of kids...the limiting factor is the number of eggs.   Oh, and one time I read an article where Allan Nation (the editor of the Stockman Grass Journal) said that the female controlled most of the genetics when mating, because the egg was so much larger than the sperm!     I about fell out of my chair!!


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 9, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I say any time the buck is physically able to breed, then he's ready.  I used a buck kid that was 6 or 7 mos and he did a great job.  Some take a little longer to mature, but they'll tell you when they're ready!
> 
> And I agree w/ Redtail on the female determining number of kids...the limiting factor is the number of eggs.   Oh, and one time I read an article where Allan Nation (the editor of the Stockman Grass Journal) said that the female controlled most of the genetics when mating, because the egg was so much larger than the sperm!     I about fell out of my chair!!


LOL I don't know about that. They each carry the same amount of chromosomes. He is probably ready to go he seems like he is anyway... lol  Now if my girls would just go into heat


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## redtailgal (Apr 9, 2012)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22438495

http://www.livescience.com/9940-test-reveals-good-bad-sperm.html

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/1/21.full


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 9, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22438495
> 
> http://www.livescience.com/9940-test-reveals-good-bad-sperm.html
> 
> http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/1/21.full


Very interesting. Thanks.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 9, 2012)

I've had a buck settle multiple does at just shy of 6 months, but some take longer.  If he's able there is no reason to wait.  They do go through awkward stages, but between 6 months and 8 you're not going to see new structural issues pop up.  Not that I'm willing to get into the phenotype vs genotype debate, but your buck should be selected based on his dam and his sire's dam.  If he's free from visible defects and the genetics are there then use him and see what his daughters do for you.  The sooner you get daughters on the ground and freshened, the sooner you're going to see what your buck is going to contribute to your program.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 9, 2012)

So...this is interesting to me, as I am a beginner in the goat breeding business. You are saying that Sundance's DAUGHTERS are the ones who are going to show me what kind of a producer he is? My herd Queen, Spicey,  was bred to Sundance and she had the triplets, one is a gorgeous doeling. Sugar, (by a completely different buck, Spicey was bred when I bought her)  the doe that passed this weekend, was out of Spicey also, and bred to Sundance. SO I have one daughter of his. She will be bred this fall. The plan of course, was to breed her to our buck. So I will be able to tell what kind of producer Sundance is by what his daughter produces?


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