# What should I use for deworming based on these fecals?



## TGreenhut (Sep 26, 2012)

Let me start off by letting you know that there are no goat vets within a 2 hour drive of where we live (that we know of). So today I gathered fecal samples from my goats and brought them to our horse vet. We did the process together because she was teaching me how to do fecal testing. Here are our results:

*Waikiki: Negative * (No worm eggs found whatsoever)

*Sassafras: Trichostrongylus x9*

*Sasha: Nematodirus (threadneck worm) x2*

My horse vet is used to doing fecals on horses and therefore had trouble with identifying certain worms found in goats. We had trouble differentiating Oesophagostomum (nodular worm) from the Haemonchus (barberpole worm). For the following two goats, I put OR for the ones we couldn't tell the difference.

*Razzmatazz: Oesophagostomum (nodular worm) OR Haemonchus (barberpole worm) x35*

*Smokey: Trichostrongylus x12*
*Nematodirus (threadneck worm) x1*
*Oesophagostomum (nodular worm) OR Haemonchus (barberpole worm) x30*

I am inexperienced with different types of dewormers so I was wondering if you guys had any suggestions of what type of dewormer I should use to treat these worms. My vet said she is unfamiliar with these worms but she could find out what to use for me if I couldn't find out.


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 26, 2012)

Sorry I can't help with the advice...but good for you getting the vet to help you identify them....I'll be watching for the pros advice...


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## elevan (Sep 27, 2012)

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt



> What worms:
> Nematodirus, Cooperia, Trichostrongylus, Telodorsagia (Ostertagia)  -  These worms will cause a goat / sheep to be unthrifty, a poor doer and cause diarrhea.  They are not blood suckers and do not cause death.
> 
> Hemonchus Contortus (Barberpole)  -  This is the worst worm that we are dealing with.  It is a voracious bloodsucker and can kill the animal.  It is very small only about 1/2 inch long as "adult".  A heavy infestation can remove 1/5 of the animal's blood in 24 hours.


These all have some effectiveness on the barberpole worm...it just depends on what the resistance level is like in your area.



> Dewormers by Class
> 
> Avermectins
> 
> ...


From the chemical MSDS

*Avermectins (ivermectin) will treat:*
Gastrointestinal Roundworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae):  Ostertagia ostertagi (including inhibited O. ostertagi), O. lyrata, Haemonchus placei, Trichostrongylus axei, T. colubriformis, Cooperia oncophora, C. punctata, C. pectinata, Oesophagostomum radiatum, 
Bunostomum phlebotomum, Nematodirus helvetianus (adults only), N. spathiger (adults only)

Lungworms (adults and fourth-stage larvae):  Dictyocaulus viviparus

Cattle Grubs (parasitic stages):  Hypoderma bovis, H. lineatum

Sucking Lice:  Linognathus vituli, Haematopinus eurysternus, Solenopotes capillatus

Mites (scabies):  Psoroptes ovis (syn. P. communis var. bovis), Sarcoptes scabiei var. bovis

*Milbymycins will treat:*
Large strongyles
Strongylus vulgaris - (adults and L4/L5 arterial stages)
Strongylus edentatus - (adults and tissue stages)
Triodontophorus brevicauda - (adults)
Triodontophorus serratus - (adults)
Small strongyles
Cyathostomum spp. - (adults)
Cylicocyclus spp. - (adults)
Cylicostephanus spp. - (adults)
Gyalocophalus capitatus - (adults)
Undifferentiated lumenal larvae
Encysted cyathostomes
Late L4 and L5 mucosal cyathostome larvae
Ascarids
Parascaris equorum - (adults and L4 larval stages)
Pinworms
Oxyuris equi - (adults and L4 larval stages)
Hairworms
Trichostrongylus axei - (adults)
Large-mouth stomach worms
Habronema muscae - (adults)


*Benzimidazole (white dewormers) will treat:*
liver flukes, tapeworms, stomach worms (including 4th stage inhibited larvae of Ostertagia), intestinal worms and lungworms, adult liver flukes


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 27, 2012)

With that high of a load of Barber pole worms, I would reach for some cydectin.  You could try a weaker wormer, and then retest the fecals in a few days to see how it helped. I would only treat the three goats that have the highest counts.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 27, 2012)

I'd also go with Cydectin. I've had really good success with it working on Barberpoles.  My vet recommends re-testing between 2-3 weeks.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 27, 2012)

If Ivomec still works for you, then I would go with Ivomec. Cydectin is the next generation of Ivomec and I would hold off using it for as long as you can. I dose Ivomec at 1cc per 20 lbs.


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## Roll farms (Sep 27, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> If Ivomec still works for you, then I would go with Ivomec. Cydectin is the next generation of Ivomec and I would hold off using it for as long as you can. I dose Ivomec at 1cc per 20 lbs.


x2.  Start with the 'weakest' drug that will still work for your goats (providing this was a routine fecal, NOT done b/c of anemia or scouring animals) and do another test in 3 wks.  If the numbers go up / don't improve, then use cydectin.

If you start w/ the 'big gun' and your worms build resistance to it, then....what will you do?

Ivermectin still works for us here, and we only deworm on an as-needed (not on a scheduled routine) basis.


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## elevan (Sep 27, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> ksalvagno said:
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x3


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 28, 2012)

I agree in theory, but if an animal is very bad off, I'd not wait and give Ivomec a chance.


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## Chris (Sep 28, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I agree in theory, but if an animal is very bad off, I'd not wait and give Ivomec a chance.


x2

Chris


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## Roll farms (Sep 28, 2012)

I'm not sure a FEC of 30 would make me deworm at all, *unless*, like I said earlier, there were scours or anemia present.

A goat can have an FEC of 2 and 3 wks later have one of 2000 w/ Barberpole.  FEC of 30 *might* just mean that goat is doing a good job of fighting it off / keeping the HC in check on her own.

So again I stress, if the FEC was done as a routine check, not b/c the goats are symptomatic, I probably would start w/ Ivomec if I felt I needed to deworm.  
If one of mine had an HC FEC of 30, I would keep a close eye on the animal, maybe do another FEC in 2-3 weeks, but probably not deworm at all _yet._


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## TGreenhut (Sep 28, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'm not sure a FEC of 30 would make me deworm at all, *unless*, like I said earlier, there were scours or anemia present.
> 
> A goat can have an FEC of 2 and 3 wks later have one of 2000 w/ Barberpole.  FEC of 30 *might* just mean that goat is doing a good job of fighting it off / keeping the HC in check on her own.
> 
> ...


It was just a routine test but my vet said I should deworm every goat that had any worms. All my goats seem very healthy though, so I'm kind of confused at how I should approach this. My vet wanted me to try a dewormer now and retest in 2-3 weeks. You think I should wait, others who replied made it sound like I have a lot of worms to deal with. 20kidsonhill said "With that high of a load of Barber pole worms", making it sound like it's enough worms to treat for.... 

And I'm kind of confused with all these dewormers (sorry, like I said, I'm not very experienced with dewormers yet). I don't know if Ivermectin (Ivomec) still works here, so I guess I'd want to try that before Cydectin to find out. But right now I have some horse dewormers on hand and it would be convenient if I could use one of those. Can I use a horse dewormer paste on a goat? I currently have on hand: Equine Ivermectin Paste 1.87%, Anthelcide EQ (oxibendazole), Safeguard Equine Paste, and Durvet Equine Pyrantel Paste (pyrantel pamoate). It sounds like Ivermectin works for the worms my goats have so could I use the *Ivermectin Paste 1.87%*? Or is that not acceptable for goats.

Thanks.


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## Roll farms (Sep 29, 2012)

I said I wouldn't deworm based on an FEC of 30....but totally understand if you feel you should.  Please do repost your follow up FEC's?


I don't use horse paste so while 1.87% horse paste is ivermectin and should work in theory....dosing it is beyond my realm of expertise.

Here's a couple good articles about FEC counts....

http://www.scsrpc.org/SCSRPC/Publications/part6.htm


http://www.microscope-microscope.org/applications/animals/fecal_analysis.htm


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 29, 2012)

TGreenhut said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
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I would listen to Roll over my opinion on Fecals, We really don't do that many fecals, WE worm based on overall health of the goat, For me personally I wouldn't care if the worm load was 10,000, if the goat looked good and was growing well, I would leave it be and not worm it. My point really was to just worm the wormiest couple goats, and not worm all of them. And if you do worm with a weaker wormer such as Ivermectin retesting would be a good idea.  

Yes, you can use the horse paste,  I would use the Ivermectin Paste at 3 x the dosage recommended for a horse.  So a 100 lb goat would get a 300 lbs dosage.  You can also use the safequard wormer(sometimes labeled as Panacur), but that you would need to do 3 days in a row for best results. And again, it is another wormer that has built up a lot of resistance.


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## TGreenhut (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks for the replies! I have another question now... (sorry it's lengthy)

All of my goats except Razz (since they are eight months and younger) have never been dewormed with a chemical dewormer in their life. About eight weeks ago I started Razz, Smokey, and Sassy on Molly's herbal dewormer. I started Waikiki and Sasha on Molly's dewormer about six weeks ago because that is when I bought them. Molly's dewormer says to use the wormwood for 3 days consecutively every *six to eight weeks* and once a week use her herbal tonic dewormer which is safer. Well I read about a lot of you on here finding Molly's dewormer unsuccessful. I just now had a chance to get fecals to see if it was working for me. The problem, though, is that I just realized Razz, Smokey and Sassy were due to be dewormed with the wormwood (*after eight weeks*) when I got the fecals done. They had the highest worm count. Sasha and Kiki, on the other hand, had been on Molly's dewormer for six weeks and were due for the wormwood at *six week OR eight weeks* and they had _barely_ any worms at all! Can I infer from this that Molly's herbal dewormer is working for me? Should I continue to treat with Molly's dewormer and use the wormwood right now (since they are due for it) and get follow up fecals in 2-3 weeks?


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## Roll farms (Sep 29, 2012)

I don't want to not answer and have you think I'm ignoring your last question.... but my answer is, I dunno.

I don't use herbals.  (An herbal dewormer is just a 'natural' dewormer - meaning not man made - but they're all 'poisonous' if not used correctly....)  

Only way you're gonna KNOW if _any_ method - regardless of what it is - is working is over time / repeated fecals / proven good (or bad) results.

So I can't say whether your dewormers are working or if those goats are just more resilient / resistant....or maybe haven't been exposed.  Nobody can.  Only time and retesting will give you those answers.  If you infer that it's working when it isn't....you could end up w/ sick goats.  Keep doing FEC's and monitoring their overall condition.  If you have good results w/ it, great.  Just don't 'infer' anything yet.  Retest.  Keep records.  Find a pattern, if there is one.

Like 20K said, I deworm based on appearance, eyelid color, overal health, and we do occasional fecals to make sure things are going well.  I have goats who've never been given chemical dewormer either.  Or herbal.  I like to keep it that way as much as possible.

Good luck !


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