# LGD HELP!!



## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

I was talking to my dog friend about a problem I'm having with me new LGD. Her is our conversation.  I'm hoping someone on here can help me. I can also go into more detail if needed.  I do know some stuff but am no expert,  this was just a quick back story 

So I got a male to replace Maggie since she is getting older and I wanted the new one to know its job and maybe Maggie could help teach before she retired. My mama showed me this male in Farmington.  A year old, born in a barn, the lady had him with goats, pigs, alpacas,  and horses.. i guess she didn't have him 24/7 with them yet one reason being the alpaca boss didnt like him near the herd. I got him as he seemed like a very friendly boy, hyper, but hes a pup. 
Well, I didnt put him with the sheep until day to but he was on a pen right by them so he could see and observe.  Once he did go in he was scared silly of them, and then the barking started, non stop at the sheep.  The barking has gotten better, but then he chewd up my stock tank heater,  and now hes jumping out of pens, ive tried 3 different ones.  I think turbo (my house puppy) was part of the problem,  but Maggie never jumps! The impression from observing sammy is thay he would rather play all day and be away from the sheep then do his job. My question is though,  is this just a faze since hes young,  or does this mean i should get rid of him because hes too old now and wont be a good lgd? Or maybe I'm just biased because Maggie is so good.  i dont want to give up on him, but I also didn't spend all that money just for another  "house dog".

This was my dog friends response 
If he is a year old he should know his job by now. My opinion. Doesn’t sound like she actually had him in there as much as she said. He needs to stay with his flock. So either he stays in on his own or a hot wire has to be put on top. If you wanted to try to keep him and make it work that is.

My reply
I was thinking that too, he was in a kennel in the barn and it seemed like she let him out and then he went back in. I could try a wire but do you think he would even be worth it? Or do you think with his age hes pretty much "ruined" for lack of a better word
And I tried to keep them separate but he ended up getting to Maggie and they tied.  So I may be having pups. In that case I could keep one of them if you feel Maggie could better teach. I have an appointment for her on the 8th for a swab test in centeria

Her
I really can’t say. I’m not an expert on LGDs. I paid $650 for mine and made sure I got them from an actual shepherdess that’s been doing it her whole life.

Me

Right, I do understand that they need to be with them at all times. I know you dont have to listen to the old wives tail of no touching,  no vet, etc. But you definitely cant play with them like a usual house dog


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## Devonviolet (Nov 17, 2018)

We have had our 4 year old Maremma LGDs since they were 5 months old. We paid a lot for them, and they were worth every penny.

You have a lot going on with your year old pup. You didn’t say what breed he is. I’m no expert, but I would think that the person you got him from, crating him, did him no favors. LGDs need to be with their livestock 24/7.  The fact that he is jumping the fence, is not good, but I don’t think you should give up and get rid of him, just yet.

Since I am not an expert, I don’t want to advise you, but we have members here, on BYH, that are better equipt to do that. I know there are several, but the first one to come to mind, who has experience breeding and training LGDs is @Southern by choice. I know she is really busy, but maybe she can give you some suggestions, to get you going in the right direction with your teenager.

And BTW, our two LGDs love nothing better than being loved on, by us. But, they are totally on duty when we go in the house. They know that when they sound off, if coyotes come near, especially after dark, that we will come out with the spot light and or shot gun and back them up.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

How long have you had him?
How old is Maggie?


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

Ive had him a 3 weeks and its been trouble the whole time.
Maggie is 6 or 7 never got a birthdate


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

And sammy is a maremma. I just tied him up because he keeps running away and he snapped the lead. I'm just getting the vibe that he would rather be a family dog bs lgd


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

And I'm gone 12 hours a day for work, so keeping a close eye is hard.  Hes in my basement right now. I know that wont help but I cant have him running the roads


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

I dont want to get rid of him but it seems more and more likely that is what will happen, and if Maggie does have pups I could just let her raise them outside.  She will be giving birth around Christmas though so I'll probably let her birth in the house and then when it gets warmer she can go back out with them


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

Can you tell me what you are doing to ease his transition?
A shepherd must bond with the guardian to establish trust. Through trust and relationship the working dog can become a working dog.
Even dogs that have worked and really been an established working dog, will take time to adjust. To know the livestock and boundaries.
You must be the one to establish the trust and bond with the dog, showing the dog it's a mutual partnership.

Now you have a possible bred bitch. Who will raise them? A shepherd spends their time raising the pups. 
From those pups the shepherd will pick those dogs that are LGD material. 
Your 1 year old very well could be LGD material, then again maybe not. It sounds as if though he came from someone that had no clue, didn't raise him correctly and did not build that relationship.

The majority of "breeders" out there do not do any shepherding  of their pups but breed, sell, and assume all will be well.

So, the cycle will go on and this dog will end up in a shelter and euthanized because clearly not one person did what they should have. 
You have to put in the work.  It will take time, so this is simply a matter of how much you are willing to do.


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

I kept him away from the sheep for a few days but let him observe,  then I put him in. It just seems like he doesn't want to bond with the sheep at all, the fact that he keeps getting out where Maggie wants to stay in and hates coming out but would rather stay in. All sam wants to do is play with my house dog. 
Maggie would raise the pups but I would also help.
Im not one to give up an a animal but I also dont need another "house " dog, i wanted a guardian.  And i most certainly dont want him put down. I want whats best for him. Thats why i wondered about a house with kids, and be a family guard dog, not livestock


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

You need to be with him and partner, not just turn him out and magically expect him to know what you want. BOND with him, love him, be with him while out there. 
Sound like this dog has had no real interaction and is releasing stress the best way he knows how and the play is because he probably hasn't been allowed to do much if he has been stalled.


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

So you feel he can still turn out to be a good LGD dog even though hes already this old? If I can keep him in the fence I can try and work with him


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

So you feel he can still turn out to be a good LGD dog even though hes already this old? If I can keep him in the fence I can try and work with him


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

You won't know til you try. LOL
I don't mean that snarky either... there have been dogs that I said NO WAY this dog will never be a lgd. But with dedicated shepherds... they became the great dog that was within them!


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## WindyIndy (Nov 17, 2018)

Lol not snarky at all, thank you! And recommendations for the jumping the fence? I use the redband and he just smooshes it down.  And I'm not sure if I can run electric as the ground is frozen so I cant do a ground wire until spring  :/


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## Baymule (Nov 17, 2018)

I got a free chicken killing Great Pyrenees. It took me two years and a lot of work and patience to turn into the best chicken guard you ever saw. BTW I worked 10 hour days. Then several years later we moved to 8 acres and got Sheep. I started all over again. She is quirky and has her ways, but we both learned to work together. She gets lots of love and attention. It can be done. Your dog is still a puppy, the equivalent of a human teenager. LOL


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## Baymule (Nov 27, 2018)

I wanted a LGD. I wanted one bad, but I knew that living in town on a small lot was not the place for one. In the meantime, I READ THE FORUM! I educated myself all I could. Paris came about because someone else had already messed her up and wanted to get rid of her. We raised our chainlink fence 3 feet and I went and got her. I read the forum some more. I asked questions. I applied what I learned to this wacko dog I now had. It took time, dedication, attention and love to turn her around. Even though we are on 8 acres now, Paris is still in love with HER back yard, so we ran a fence from the back yard to the sheep barn so she could have both her safe space and watch over the sheep. 

I have the deepest and utmost respect for @BrendaMNgri and have learned a lot from her postings. Her comment was not directed at me, but at the whole situation. The OP needs to educate herself on LGD's, they are NOT your normal dog. They are independent thinkers and require a different kind of training. It just so happens that we have a woman wo has devoted her life to these dogs and she has a book about them. 

@B&B Happy goats It's all good. We're friends here and maybe sometimes things come out a little sideways, maybe sometimes we just understand things a little sideways.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 27, 2018)

You have a wonderful  way with words Bay thank you.......I do have a LITTLE understanding of the LGD as a neighbor had two and i convinced them to let one go to a LGD rescue.  ( and now is a happy working farm dog) The other is chained  in a goat yard....it breaks my heart, but i am ALLOWED  sometimes to let her loose and hang out with me...I see and feel the independence , i feel her sadness and it breaks my heart . I have to see this every day, i feel it every day...there are days when i am the one filling her bowl with food  and her pail with water...it is not a easy situation to discuss,  i wish i could groom her, care for her and work with her.....I feel the passion that you and SBC have and i admire you both for all that you contribute to this site and the love that you give to animals.....hugs


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## babsbag (Dec 2, 2018)

I read all the time on FB groups that "these dogs aren't mature (replace "mature" with can't be trusted) until they are 2 years old". Makes me crazy. Physically, yes, they aren't mature, but locking them up away from livestock until the age of 2 and then expecting them to magically know what to do is asinine. And then to get a pup at 10-12 weeks and have to put in a two year investment before any ROI is seen...who has that kind of time? I sure don't. My dogs started barking and guarding at about 6 months of age. I have good fences so I never worried about them engaging a coyote, I just need them to bark.  Whenever I read the "two year old" statement I see red. LGD are better than that and that crazy rumor on FB sure isn't doing them any favors.


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## Ridgetop (Dec 7, 2018)

*Agree, agree, agree!*

That said, I think BrendaMNegri has a lot of great information to share.   She is very knowledgeable.  So do Southern, Baymule, Devonviolet, babsbag, and all the BYH posters with working LGDs.  To really understand the way LGDs work, you have to understand the way their mind thinks, and their pack structure.  BrendaMNegri has researched and observed her dogs, and put it in a book.  The rest of us have observed our dogs and just share bits of what we know on this site.  A lot of us know stuff we do not even realize we learned from observation of our dogs, both good and bad.  If someone suggested a book to read about LGDs by another author, no one would think it unusual.  Let's not think that she suggests her book because she wants to sell a copy.  BrendaMNegri believes in her research and training methods, that is why she wrote the book.  That is why she recommends it.

To understand how to properly raise and train a good _obedience_ dog (_*not*_ an LGD - LOL) you have to buy the right breed, understand the pack nature of dogs, and train accordingly.  I believe in behavior prevention which results in less punishment, more praise and better training.  However, while I prefer to keep my obedience dogs in the house, you can raise a good hunting dog, obedience dog, etc., even when it is kenneled except when you do the training.  This does _*not*_ work for LGDs.

LGDs are a completely _different_ kettle of fish (or kennel of dogs - LOL).  Their guarding behavior drive is instinctual but they need training too.  Their entire genetic makeup requires them to think for themselves and reason what is a threat to their flock/pack/family.  They cannot do their job if they are kenneled even part of the time.  _We_ kennel our LGDs when strangers are around because Bubba is not good with strangers.  If we are going to lock up our dogs, we keep the sheep in their night pens on those occasions.  *LGDs require specialized training.*  Pups will often try to play with their charges.  This is not permissible.  They need to learn to respect perimeters and fencing.  You will need to be the Alpha with these dogs, but not by punishment.  We use our voices to control them.  There is a lot of training that goes into these dogs to make them good guardians.  AND not every individual in an LGD breed makes a good flock guardian!  Different guardians suit different situations.

It is important to understand that not all LGDs make perfect flock guardians.  Some are devoted to their flocks, while others are better at being all around ranch guards, while some are family/people oriented.  The good breeder identifies these qualities in their dogs and chooses the best dog for the best situation.  Unfortunately, you relied on the breeder and she did not deliver the goods - in fact she did not know how to train or recognize a good LGD prospect.

Depending on how many sheep you have, the size of your property, and the layout of your pens, barns, and home, this dog, who you think prefers to be a family dog, can be trained to be a property guardian instead of a straight flock guardian.  Depending on your situation this might be all you need to give back up to your older LGD.  Bubba does not remain all day with our flock, Rika does.  While he is not with the sheep 24/7 he can be anywhere on the property in about 10 seconds flat.  He is very watchful during lambing season and adores the lambs.  At night he patrols the entire property with Rika.  It works for them.  Rika is 6 and I am getting a replacement for her soon.  I need a straight flock guardian.  My breeder knows this and selects accordingly for the home or ranch where the dog is to go..

We need more information from you.  What kind of fences do you have?  How high are they?  While he jumps out of the sheep pen, does he stay on the property?  Does he stay inside the perimeter fence or does he jump out and go roaming?  Is he content to be in the yard near the house or does he try to claw his way indoors?  How does he behave when with you and how does he behave when you go iside and watch him through a window?  These are all variables we need to know in order to help you.  Confining him to a pen and having him chew up the stock tank heater sounds like boredom and normal puppy behavior.  Rika "killed" all our hoses and left them in pieces until she was 3.  Bubba ate the cushions on our outdoor furniture, and chewed the legs of our kitchen chairs when DH left him in the family room unsupervised.  Puppy behavior.   

In my opinion since you don't have the time necessary to retrain this dog and since your female may be having puppies, I would rehome him with someone who has the time, and hopefully experience, to work with him consistently.  At 12 months he is still a puppy, but he _is_ big and powerful.  His fear of or aggression to the sheep makes him unsuitable for the purpose for which you bought him.  Find him a home with someone who can train him.

On a cautionary note, you said that your current dog "_will train the puppies_" for you.  _*This is not going to happen.*_  She can only do so much.  You will have to do a lot of training on these puppies to make them into good guardians.  Just because their mother is a good livestock guardian, does not mean that all of the pups will be.  Half may be like the sire, although I think a lot of his problems are due to poor training in his early stages, and a lack of socialization from being locked up alone.

Mainly, though, getting the dog from an experienced owner-breeder-trainer is the best start to a good dog.  We started with LGDs back when you were not supposed to touch them  Now we know better.  Our first 5 LGDs were literally our learning dogs.  They were all young puppies and we had to train them.  They were good and we learned a lot from them and about LGDs.   When it was time to buy another LGD after Poppy died of cancer we decided to switch breeds since all our Pyrs were excape artists.  We were lucky enough to have found a great breeder who is always there for me for any problem.  After 30 years with LGDs we still have questions, behavior concerns, etc.  We were also lucky to have had the money to invest in a great Anatolian.  She was 18 months old, completely trained, and perfect.  We bonded on the way home from Texas - a 3 day drive.

Our second Anatolian we got from the same breeder as a pup.  He was the only male and Erick probably would have chosen a different dog for us since Bubba prefers to guard the entire property and us rather than the sheep only.  He has gotten better now that he is 3 years old, and Rika has trained him a lot.  So have we.  Bubba's training is ongoing.  If Bubba were our only flock guardian it is possible that we would not be as happy with him.  On the other hand, if Rika were not the superlative guardian she is or if Bubba were the only LGD, he might behave differently.  Many times when I have come to believe that he has little interest in the sheep, I Iook out the window to see him occupying Rika's preferred guarding spot on top of the ridge.  From there the dogs can see the entire gully and the back hills where the coyote danger is.  Always these dogs amaze me. 

Hopefully, you will come to the right decision about your new dog.


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