# Deposits - What would you do?



## woodsie (Dec 4, 2013)

I have a situation and not sure what to do and would love some input. I recently had a litter of puppies with my Great Pyrenees. I have put lots of time into communicating and screening homes to ensure all the pups are going to suitable homes. Sorry about the novel but trying to give a balanced view of what has happened.

One lady gave me a $200 deposit on a pup at 2 weeks old (second pick of the litter), I had spent about 4 hours replying to her extensive questions through email (I asked if we could talk as it would have been easier timewise but she said she had small kids and found it difficult to talk on the phone) I answered about 20 longhand questions about LGDs and training...it was literally a 4 page email response. After answering all the questions and giving her a plan on how to train an LGD she emailed me her $200 deposit but asked me to keep the pup to 12 weeks for extra training and socialization. I agreed to keep the pup until 12 weeks. At 11 weeks I emailed her to give me a time when she was going to pick up the pups..no response. At just over 12 weeks I emailed her again saying I would have to charge boarding fees if she wanted me to keep her any longer to cover food costs. At 12.5 weeks she informed me they would not be needed the pup but the other farm owner was considering taking the pup. At 13.5 weeks I had not heard from the new owner and she emailed me saying the new farm owner had decided not to take the pup but what about her $200 deposit. 

Up until a few days ago I have had no great leads as to good homes for the last 3 puppies and was thinking they might be here for a while...I could have sold them all a long time ago but I was not going to sell them to people that had no idea how to care for an LGD or someone that just wanted them to breed them for money and I refused to unload them to anyone. Turns out within 24 hours I all of a sudden sold 3 puppies without a lot of trouble. The pup that this lady had picked, I did end up reducing the price to $500 because she had a good situation that I felt the pup would do well at and price was an issue for her. So that's the background, now I am faced with what to do with this lady's deposit....she sent me a nasty message last night, assuming I was not going to return her deposit because I didn't instantly reply to her message....nevermind she waited 12 weeks to tell me she wasn't going to take the pup. 

It's not as much about the money but what is fair and reasonable. I have spent a ton of time with her and I guess it is principle that what's the point of a deposit if you can back out and get all your money back? To be fair I did not stipulate "non-refundable deposits" I just used the words "deposit". Any suggestions or best practices in this situation? Love to hear what others think is fair and reasonable.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 4, 2013)

Well you do have a problem here. You did not state it was non-refundable under blah blah blah conditions etc. However, in good faith you could send her half and explain that upon her request you kept the dogs for the additional month... that was additional feed, dewormer, vaccinations. In good faith you kept the dog despite her lack of communication and she forfeited any deposit. The nature of a deposit is to hold the pup and assure a prospective buyer the pup. I would let her know it is in good faith that you are even willing to return 1/2 of the deposit... if you decide to do so.
I would also remind her of every e-mail interaction and how many times you attempted to contact her. She failed to respond. She forfeited the deposit and the pup at that point.
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On another note... and I know you have learned from this... e-mail is great BUT you and I know that sitting down on a computer typing takes far longer and renders you useless to do anything else. Having young children was her excuse for not making verbal contact... I don't buy it... We all know you can talk and carry a phone while you are cleaning, cooking, kids, farmwork etc... you can't do any of that sitting at a computer.
Rant about that over... my point... when you have anyone that wants you to type up everything they should do and they have a million questions... if they cannot "talk" to you... do not waste your time! PERIOD! Your time is valuable and people that disrespect that, are not worth bothering with.  

_BTW- never reduce the price!_ Each month you have the dog you are putting more and more into him/her and that pup is learning more and more training wise... something that a new owner gets to bypass. Here all pups automatically stay til 12 weeks for imprinting and started training... (even house training) poultry, sheep, goats, behavior, socialization, food aggression issues etc.... every month they remain here is between $125-$150 additional. 16 weeks we start obedience.


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## LoneOakGoats (Dec 4, 2013)

It is my belief that a deposit is nonrefundable.  If I paid a deposit on a dog, or anything else for that matter, I would not expect to get that money back.  You have every right to keep it.   Now if you want to return half to her, that would be nice on your part. On the other hand, my husband would say give it back to her.  If she can live with what she did, you can live without the deposit.


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## Harbisgirl (Dec 4, 2013)

Actually I disagree with the comment about email vs phone. I am an emailer, I hate talking on the phone. I certainly respect other peoples time but when I am learning something new, I need it it writing. I need to read it and re-read it and mull it over and have tiem to formulate articulate questions. When I'm on the phone, especially if I'm rushed or nervous, I forget everything. I was that kid who went blank on test day  Also, an email would be a good opportunity to explain that deposits are non-refundable and you'd have written proof.

As for the deposit, I think you may be out of luck. Granted, deposits are frequently known to be non-refundable but since you didn't specifically state that, she has an argument - which would probably be to her advantage in small-claims court if she wanted to get nasty. Also, is $200 worth her bad mouthing your reputation? Then again she probably is doing that at this point anyway. You may have to chaulk it up to a very expensive lesson. IMO I think half is fair. You didn't stipulate that it was non-refundable so she would reasonably expect her money back. But you have a case with abandonment as well - you paid for food and lodging and loss of possible income, so you are entitled too.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 4, 2013)

I would give it back.  I would not want to have any more contact with them personally, and the easiest way to insure that would be to return the deposit.

File it under lessons learned. Never do business with them again.

Spent a lot of time with someone concerning a goat that they contacted me about.  Phone calls, farm visit and then they were to get back with me about the animal.  Never heard from them.
And, to top that off I know they contacted someone else about an animal right after they came out to my farm because that person got the dam from me and we stay in contact.
But, I sold the goat to someone else 2 weeks later so no big deal....
Obviously, I will never even discuss an animal with them again.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 4, 2013)

Harbisgirl said:


> Actually I disagree with the comment about email vs phone. I am an emailer, I hate talking on the phone. I certainly respect other peoples time but when I am learning something new, I need it it writing. I need to read it and re-read it and mull it over and have tiem to formulate articulate questions. When I'm on the phone, especially if I'm rushed or nervous, I forget everything. I was that kid who went blank on test day  Also, an email would be a good opportunity to explain that deposits are non-refundable and you'd have written proof.



I agree e-mail has its place but the person seeking the info should be _respectful of the person providing_ the information. When dealing with livestock or in this case puppies... an animal... there is a great deal in verbal communication. I get e-mails about my livestock as well as poultry and LGD's... initial contact e-mail is fine but there is no way a dog or goat would ever leave my property without verbal screening... much can be determined by talking with someone. You can hear flighty, indecisiveness, nervousness etc... much is lost with just simply writing back and forth.


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## BrownSheep (Dec 4, 2013)

To be honest I would want to keep at least half the deposit....I probably wouldn't because I am so anti-confrontational it isn't funny.  This lady tied up your time, resources, and ultimately your money by not fulfilling her part of the agreement.  Let's all be honest, when it comes down to it the younger the puppy the easier it tends to be to place it. If I put down a deposit on anything it is with the understanding I am entering an agreement to purchase it. If I back out I am forfeiting that money in compensation for that persons time and possibly lost income from turning away other people. 

In my opinion you have good claim to it, but like others have said it can also affect your reputation as she can, and probably, will bad mouth you.  I also, think you have gone out of your way to work with this lady and to ensure all of your litter goes to deserving homes.


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## secuono (Dec 4, 2013)

Did you state, right from the start, that it was a non-refundable deposit? If not, return her money. If so, remind her of that and end all contact. 
It's that simple.


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## woodsie (Dec 4, 2013)

Thanks for the confirmation, I have pretty much the same feelings...I am willing to spilt the difference but just did not seem right to refund it completely given the circumstances and how much time I spent accomodating her...if nothing else to make the point and for her to consider how much time goes into placing a home that is fully ready to accept a pup and to not waste people's time. I just wanted to run it by others, you specifically, to see if there was a standard practice for these circumstances. She was also planning to take over this operating sheep farm, but now realizes that they cannot financially make it work...seems to be a pattern of wasting people's time and effort.

I normally would not reduce a price, and it wasn't to unload her but to make it accessable to someone who was a good fit for the pup. I also reduced the price to sell a second pup to a home that was dealing with cougars because I was highly recommending getting two. Having these puppies was not about the money anyhow.

Yes lesson learned and not sure I will do puppies again but certainly valuable lesson to all of us taking deposits for animals as I am sure the case will be for some of my goats as well come spring. Thanks everyone for chiming in...thanks!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 4, 2013)

Woodsie this is a tough one, because knowing you are such a kindhearted person you would probably under other circumstances never even thought twice about it. It is _this_ circumstance that is so wrong, on the "buyers" part. 
In all honesty even though I will take deposits at 6wks for a pup (I don't take them before that) I never ask for deposits on dogs or goats and only will I require a deposit for special order poultry. Generally the people that I have talked with I am comfortable enough to never need one. I also know in life sometimes things can come up unexpectedly and I simply would not want to "bind" someone to a financial obligation.  Sometimes it is as simple as just doing the right thing... it isn't unreasonable for you to keep half and I have been in the dog world a long time and have seen this before... it would go in your favor BTW in small claims court... but it may not be worth it. 
Do what your heart tells you but you can still be very clear in how her actions affected the situation.  
Just glad THEY ALL went to wonderful homes!


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 4, 2013)

IYou should go with your heart on this.  Whatever you feel is right.

I do agree with the poster about when you speak with someone you can gauge intention, flighty, indecisiveness etc.

I know in our case, my wife didn't even want to have the farm visit because in previous conversations this person had criticized other farms.  My wife felt that this person was not really interested in buying an animal, but just wanted to "check us out" to criticize to other people.

There were a lot of signs that she was tuned in to, but sadly I was not.... because we have heard things second hand since then.

Particularly troubling is the conversation she had with someone selling a kid from a dam that came from us.  She told them that they should have the animals "evaluated" plus other things.

But, as hard as it is to do, I try to take the "high road".  If asked, I always describe this person as a "knowledgeable" breeder. In fact, did that very thing just today.

And, I will continue to do so.


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