# How to get the rumen moving if she can't eat? She's FINALLY home!!!



## KellyHM

Long story short: One of my yearling Nubian does got attacked by a dog yesterday (a now dead dog) and got her neck chewed up pretty badly.  She spent last night in the clinic on IV fluids, antibiotics, and pain medication.  She hasn't been able to get up yet, although she got halfway there a little while ago (woo-hoo for progress!).  She hasn't shown much interest in eating for the past 24 hours, although she did eat half a handful of grain about 20 minutes ago.  I think she's definitely got some rumen stasis going on.  Any ideas on how to get it working again if she doesn't want to eat her hay (or leaves or anything else that looks like forage)?  She's on 2 antibiotics and 2 pain medications.  Any other suggestions?


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## Beekissed

I've heard one can steal a cud from another goat and make her swallow it to get her rumen jumpstarted once again.


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## ksj0225

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I've heard one can steal a cud from another goat and make her swallow it to get her rumen jumpstarted once again.


x2

I've even seen it done, you have to have quick hands.


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## babsbag

Beer. We use Widmer Bros. Hefenwizen. Warm and flat. Drench them with it. 

This tip was given to use for a vet that happens to also raise, show, and judge goats. We had a goat at a show that was very very sick. She told us to tube her with beer, so our local vet did and the results were amazing. Have used it many times since. 

Supposedly the beer has the same microbs in it that a goat rumen does, or at least they are very close. Not sure the brewery would like to be known for that.

We gave our full size dairy goat an entire bottle when her rumen shut down and within 20 minutes she was nibbling on alfalfa.

Good luck


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## KellyHM

Thanks for the replies.  I've heard of stealing cud from another goat, but my main concern is how I would get it down the other one.  She has so much muscle damage in her neck it's hard for her to pick her head up for more than a few seconds, her trachea was perforated, etc.  I'm scared to death I'll injure her worse trying to struggle with her.  I'm pretty sure I would have to put her under anesthesia to get a tube down her throat without killing her from the stress.  I suppose I could go that route.  She wouldn't have to be under for long.


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## Beekissed

Take that cud and put it into your food processor, liquify it and then drench her...gently.  

I use unpasteurized ACV, garlic and wild honey in my drenches....the ACV has the same probios that are needed to jump start a rumen.  Might be easier to just use the beer as mentioned in the above post.


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## SuburbanFarmChic

I would mix the cud with a slurry and see if she'll drink it. Maybe toss some molasses or karo in it to up the flavor.  If she'll drink for you, I'd start slurrying all her food for a while so it's not hard to swallow.  Get timothy or alfalfa pellets and melt them along with some goat pellets. 


Also something that may keep her going, which a mentor of mine feeds nearly nothing but to bloom her show sheep, is the following. 


to make a 1/2 gal. 

15 raw eggs 
60cc prop glycol
60cc rice bran oil 
1/8 c cocoa powder 
1tbsp vanilla  
2 scoops of a high dex electrolyte mix. One that is at least 75-70% dex. 

When my goat was SO sick in the beginning this mix took her from flat on her side and moaning to up and about and looking for food.  

Mix it all up and drench up to about 250ccs (around a cup) at a time.   If she gets the runs back off a little.   The vanilla and cocoa are to cover the taste of the propylene glycol. 


Drench with this until she has a bit more energy and time giving her the slurry to when her pain meds are working so it hurts less for her to swallow.  We gave 1 cup, 3x a day with only very slight logging of her poop. It was mostly all pellets.   

Kim (not Rolls) makes up gal batches of this at a time but for only one animal I make 1/2 gal. 

Up to you whether you try it. I can only say what worked for us.


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## KellyHM

Ok, quick update.  She is on her feet and eating!    I ended up only giving her Probiotics.  I don't have anything to drench her with and couldn't get anything down her without making her choke, so I gave up on the other stuff.  However, by then she had started nibbling at a tiny bit of hay/grain and was able to stand if we lifted her to her feet.  She is now able to get up/down by herself, move around, and has a great appetite!  She is drinking on her own also and came off the IV yesterday.  She is still on baytril, oxytetracycline, and ketoprofen (similar to banamine).  Keep your fingers crossed that she continues to improve!


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## Ms. Research

Fingers AND toes are crossed for your sweet girl.  

K


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## Mamaboid




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## Beekissed

That's great news!!!  Don't forget to repeat your probios after the antibiotic dosage is complete...antibiotics tend to cancel out the probios.


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## KellyHM

She will probably be on antibiotics for at least a couple of weeks.  How often do you think I should give the Probios?  Twice a week?


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## Beekissed

If she is eating well I'd hold off on the probios until her antibiotic dose is complete.  They say wait 48 hours past the last dose of antibiotics to introduce probios...at least in the human world they do.    If she stops eating well during that time, I'd throw the probios to her and see if that can jumpstart her again.


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## ruminantlover27

How does one steal a cud?


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## elevan




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## autumnprairie

elevan said:
			
		

>


X2


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## Queen Mum

YAY!


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## Ariel72

ruminantlover27 said:
			
		

> How does one steal a cud?


I think you have to wait til you see a healthy goat burp one up and then you just reach in there and grab it  .


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## GLENMAR

Ariel72 said:
			
		

> ruminantlover27 said:
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> How does one steal a cud?
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> I think you have to wait til you see a healthy goat burp one up and then you just reach in there and grab it  .
Click to expand...


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## cmjust0

So glad you didn't steal a cud from another animal and give it to one with A PERFORATED TRACHEA.  I hadn't read this thread till just now but when I saw 'steal a cud' and then 'perforated trachea' I was thinking someone would chime in and stop you, but...well, apparently not!  It's one thing to give probiotics because they're more or less 'clean' bugs, and for the animal to burp up its own cud...but to introduce all new bugs from another animal to one that's compromised with a perforated trachea?!  That could have been really, really bad.

Glad to hear she's back up and doing well.


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## Beekissed

I can't see where the perforated trachea has much to do with disease transmission from the digestive tract...and the animal is already on antibiotic dosing.  

Introducing regurgitated greens holds no more potential for infection than does the animal lying on the barn floor...actually, it holds less.  The digestive tract is considered a "dirty" area of the body, full of good and bad bacteria from the mouth clear down to the exit.  Transmitting germs from one flock member to another via cud is moot...if they are flock mates it's a good bet they already have approximately the same flora.


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## cmjust0

I can see why, because the skin and surrounding tissue on the *outside* is going to be more able to swell due to inflammation.  Which, of course, is the body's way of sealing a wound to keep nasty stuff out.  The trachea, on the other hand, is sorta like a garden hose if you've ever seen one.  They seem to be almost pure cartilage.  I'm sure there's some swell-able tissue in the lining, but I doubt seriously that it's going to be able to swell quite like the outside of the body can.  

And, yes, they'd likely have "approximately" the same bugs, but there's no way to know that for sure, and the only way to guard against it NOT being the case would be NOT to swap out cud.  

Under normal circumstances, I don't think swapping cud is a problem, but in a situation like this where some of that cud or bacteria-laden liquid from that cud may escape the trachea into a pocket deep in the tissue of the throat, I think it would be wise to avoid non-native cud and at least *know* your animal has had the opportunity to build up whatever antibodies to bugs in its own system necessary to keep a potential infection at bay.  Because, remember, antibiotics are just *help* for the body's native immune system...it's not as if it's only antibiotics which clear infections.


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## Beekissed

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I can see why, because the skin and surrounding tissue on the *outside* is going to be more able to swell due to inflammation.  Which, of course, is the body's way of sealing a wound to keep nasty stuff out.  The trachea, on the other hand, is sorta like a garden hose if you've ever seen one.  They seem to be almost pure cartilage.  I'm sure there's some swell-able tissue in the lining, but I doubt seriously that it's going to be able to swell quite like the outside of the body can.
> 
> And, yes, they'd likely have "approximately" the same bugs, but there's no way to know that for sure, and the only way to guard against it NOT being the case would be NOT to swap out cud.
> 
> Under normal circumstances, I don't think swapping cud is a problem, but in a situation like this where some of that cud or bacteria-laden liquid from *that cud may escape the **trachea into a pocket deep in the tissue of the throat*, I think it would be wise to avoid non-native cud and at least *know* your animal has had the opportunity to build up whatever antibodies to bugs in its own system necessary to keep a potential infection at bay.  Because, remember, antibiotics are just *help* for the body's native immune system...it's not as if it's only antibiotics which clear infections.


If the goat is swallowing a cud down her trachea, she has bigger problems than cross contamination, she has an aspiration problem....a perforated _esophagus_, on the other hand,  would be another matter altogether.  A perforated esophagus may indeed allow the bolus contents to escape into the macerated tissue around the neck wound and possibly create more problems with contaminants in the wound surfaces.  

 A perforated _trachea_, on the other hand, is a part of the airway and would only be exposed to that cud if the esophagus was also perforated with a the openings lying next to one another.  The OP didn't mention anything about a perforated esophagus.



> *Oxytetracycline HCL*"The drug is widely distributed to organs and tissues"...."*May alter gut flora*. It is recommended that a probiotic also be given, such as Bene-Bac.


The drug in question is a going to be working at the site of the injury and surrounding tissues, and is even going to be killing those gut flora...even from a borrowed cud.  I see very little danger inherent in introducing a donor cud in the face of this antibiotic and as the cud will be confined to the alimentary canal and not anywhere near the primary wound/source of infection.


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## cmjust0

Beekissed said:
			
		

> If the goat is swallowing a cud down her trachea, she has bigger problems than cross contamination, she has an aspiration problem....a perforated _esophagus_, on the other hand,  would be another matter altogether.  A perforated esophagus may indeed allow the bolus contents to escape into the macerated tissue around the neck wound and possibly create more problems with contaminants in the wound surfaces.
> 
> A perforated _trachea_, on the other hand, is a part of the airway and would only be exposed to that cud if the esophagus was also perforated with a the openings lying next to one another.  The OP didn't mention anything about a perforated esophagus.


Ooops..  

Yep, you got me there..  For some reason I was just thinking about 'the hose'...not which does what past the larynx.  But you're right.  Good catch!


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## Beekissed

I do it all the time!   

The other day I was trying to explain to my son about what to claim as a dependent on a W4 during new employment in order to not have to pay taxes at the end of the year.....even though I knew the information it kept coming out all wrong.  Finally got my mind untwisted and had to admit to the boy that I didn't know _why_ I kept insisting that he had to claim more on the W4 to accomplish this goal, which of course, is not what I meant.    He had it right all along and just used this   to get me to shut up.


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## aggieterpkatie

Just remember when transferring cuds, you have to be quick or else the bacteria will get too cold and do no good.  It really helps to have a cow with a fistulated rumen in cases like these!


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## KellyHM

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Just remember when transferring cuds, you have to be quick or else the bacteria will get too cold and do no good.  *It really helps to have a cow with a fistulated rumen in cases like these!*


Geez, why didn't I think of that.  I could have driven to Gainesville and borrowed some cud from the one at UF.


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## aggieterpkatie

KellyHM said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
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> Just remember when transferring cuds, you have to be quick or else the bacteria will get too cold and do no good.  *It really helps to have a cow with a fistulated rumen in cases like these!*
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> Geez, why didn't I think of that.  I could have driven to Gainesville and borrowed some cud from the one at UF.
Click to expand...

Is that very far from you?  Because they probably would let you!


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## ksalvagno

Glad your girl is doing better. Ohio State has a cow like that and you can buy rumen from it. I bet your state college would sell it too.


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## KellyHM

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> KellyHM said:
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> aggieterpkatie said:
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> Just remember when transferring cuds, you have to be quick or else the bacteria will get too cold and do no good.  *It really helps to have a cow with a fistulated rumen in cases like these!*
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> Geez, why didn't I think of that.  I could have driven to Gainesville and borrowed some cud from the one at UF.
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> Click to expand...
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> Is that very far from you?  Because they probably would let you!
Click to expand...

About 2 hours.  I graduated from there, so I still have inside connections.


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## aggieterpkatie

KellyHM said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
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> KellyHM said:
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> Geez, why didn't I think of that.  I could have driven to Gainesville and borrowed some cud from the one at UF.
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> Is that very far from you?  Because they probably would let you!
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> Click to expand...
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> About 2 hours.  I graduated from there, so I still have inside connections.
Click to expand...

Well 2 hours is a little too far to be really convenient, but in an emergency it would probably work.  I used to work at my university's farm. We never had anyone ask for rumen juice, but we definitely would have given it away!


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## KellyHM

She's coming home on Sunday!!!  Yesterday was a week that she's been at the clinic.  I haven't brought her home yet b/c there have been too many open wounds in places that can't be bandaged and the last thing she needs is maggots in there.    The drainage has slowed enough that the wounds can be closed and she will be coming home!    She eats like a pig, is able to lift her head above knee level (even lifted it and gave me kisses tonight!), and is overall in better spirits.  She has a fluid pocked on her neck that will be drained to prevent abscess formation and tilts her head to one side most of the time (muscle damage), which I'm hoping we can correct slowly, but as long as she's functional and happy that's all I really care about.  SHE'S COMING HOME!!!


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## ksalvagno

That is great! Congratulations on a job well done! Good thing you are a vet and can handle anything that may come up at home!


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## KellyHM

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> That is great! Congratulations on a job well done! Good thing you are a vet and can handle anything that may come up at home!


Maybe not anything, but it definitely gives me an advantage.


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## KellyHM

She's finally home!  There's still a couple of open punctures on her left hip that I've got coated with aluminum bandage and fly spray in the hopes they won't get maggots in there.    They closed up on their own, but then abscessed and had to be reopened and drained.  Such is life.  Her neck has healed well, other than being slightly crooked, so she'll never be a show goat (definitely not in March like I had planned, but who cares.  I'm just glad she's home!


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## KellyHM

Oh, and let me just note that despite her limp and stiff neck, she was climbing all over the feed bin today and even head butted one of my dogs.


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## Roll farms

Glad she's home!


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## ThreeBoysChicks

Glad she is home.  That is great news!


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## autumnprairie

so happy she is home


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## ksalvagno

That is great news!


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