# CD/T injection ?



## cadman68 (Apr 27, 2010)

I want to know if its absolutely necessary to have epi on hand when giving the CDT shot....I know there is a chance that the goat can have a deadly reaction to CDT but epi is not easy to get. So how often does it happen? Or where do most of you get epi?


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## ()relics (Apr 27, 2010)

The chance of a reaction to CD/T severe enough to cause anaphylaxis is slim.  I have never seen nor can I ever remember hearing of a goat having that violent of a reaction to this particular vaccine, BUT the possiblity does exsist.  The vaccine should be given subcutaneously to futher lessen the potential of a reaction, IM shots are the most prone to cause anaphylaxis.  
_Epinephrine_ should be kept in your emergency first aid kit should the need for it ever arise, if you need it there will not be time to try to locate a supply of it.  I get it from my vet...He prescribes it and has instructed me in its use, which fulfills his end of the deal.  I have it on hand but have never used it for any of my goats, have used it for pigs...I have heard that some vets are reluctant to prescribe it because of its misuse and abuse.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 27, 2010)

I thought at one point that I'd seen a little anaphylaxis in one of ours, but looking back, I think it was actually a case of choke that looked strikingly like anaphylaxis.  

I have, however, heard two seperate first-hand tales of goats dying from anaphylaxis..  That is to say, two people have told me that their goats -- not their neighbor's ex-roommate's uncle's son-in-law's cousin's goats...their goats -- collapsed and died from anaphylaxis after C/D-T injections.

It happens.  It's not a myth.  

So, is Epi necessary?  Well, no...not unless you have a reaction.  But you already knew that, of course..  If you're lucky -- and you probably don't even have to be all that lucky, as reactions are pretty doggone rare -- you'll never need it.  But if you're unlucky and need it, and don't have it, you're screwed.  And actually, if you're unlucky, need it, _have it_, but don't have it drawn up and ready to stick right away...it still might not do you any good and you're still screwed.

I have some.  I got it from my vet(s), with whom I have a very, very, very good working relationship.  They trust me, which is the key to the whole deal.  It's kinda like.....if your vet wouldn't stop and have an honest to goodness conversation with you in Wal-Mart, good luck getting Epi.  

The hell of it is that Epi is _cheap_ -- $10 for a nice 20ml, shelf-stable vial.  I carry the vial and a sterile 2.5ml syringe tipped w/ a 25ga x5/8" needle with me when I'm giving C/D-T or any kind of biological.  I've never needed it.  Will I be quick enough on the draw if ever I do need it?  Dunno...hope so, but maybe not.  

Bottom line, I guess, is that if you can get it, get it.  If you absolutely can't get it and you're willing to roll the dice, considering the possibility of anaphylaxis an acceptable risk...roll on.  Lots of people do just that, and with the way things are today, I wouldn't for one second call it _irresponsible_ or anything like that to do so.  Afterall, neither you nor I created the meth problem that's created the Epi problem, right?  We're just living within the framework created by everyone else's screw ups, unfortunately..

Frankly -- and I'm speculating here, but -- I'd say _most_ people giving C/D-T shots these days do so without access to Epi..  That's just the way it is.

But...if you can get it, _get it_.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 27, 2010)

I've never in my life had an anaphalaxis reaction to any shot out of thousands of shots I've given.  It could happen, but in my experience it's very rare.


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## lupinfarm (Apr 27, 2010)

Just a thought, Cmjust0, would a regular Epi-pen work? I would think it'd be easier to have an epi-pen on hand than the vial and needle because you are able to jab them quicker with it. I've been thinking of speaking to my vet about getting an epi-pen to keep on hand but we don't have the vet out too often.


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## freemotion (Apr 27, 2010)

Epi-pens are EXPENSIVE and epinephrin is CHEAP.  So unless you have a prescription and carry one....better not tell your insurance company you need another one because you gave it to your goat, though! 

You can get a tiny vial at TSC or through catalogs that sell vaccines for something like $5-6, I think.

I've also given hundreds, probably thousands, of injections to horses, almost all IM, and never had a reaction.  But goats are not horses, I don't know if it is more common in goaties.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 28, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> You can get a tiny vial at TSC or through catalogs that sell vaccines for something like $5-6, I think.


I'd say that's doubtful, at best.  You _used_ to be able to get it OTC at farm supply stores, but my understanding is that it's strictly Rx now, nation wide, thanks to all the tweakers and speedfreaks out there who used it to make meth.


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## lupinfarm (Apr 28, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Epi-pens are EXPENSIVE and epinephrin is CHEAP.  So unless you have a prescription and carry one....better not tell your insurance company you need another one because you gave it to your goat, though!
> 
> You can get a tiny vial at TSC or through catalogs that sell vaccines for something like $5-6, I think.
> 
> I've also given hundreds, probably thousands, of injections to horses, almost all IM, and never had a reaction.  But goats are not horses, I don't know if it is more common in goaties.


We can't get ANYTHING seeing as I am in Canada, and cmjust0 is right.. Epi is Rx only. We're not insured regardless so I'm not concerned with paying the extra price for an Epi-pen. I've never had a reaction with the goats either. 

This is probably pointless in me even considering, I can't even get the Tetanus anti-toxin shots to give after your goat has hurt itself from my vet because he's "never seen a goat vaccinated against Cd/t develop tetanus and its really expensive and has a short shelf life"


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 29, 2010)

:/





			
				lupinfarm said:
			
		

> This is probably pointless in me even considering, I can't even get the Tetanus anti-toxin shots to give after your goat has hurt itself from my vet because he's "never seen a goat vaccinated against Cd/t develop tetanus and its really expensive and has a short shelf life"


Really expensive?  Here it's only $5 per one-dose vial.


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## cadman68 (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks for the responses everyone.....

I am going to check with the vet and see if she is willing to prescribe some for me, but i suppose if she isnt willing to do that I will just roll the dice as I figure the CD/T is necessary. 

I have 8 that i need to vac this weekend so i guess i'll find out soon enough how lucky i am lol.

Oh and one more thing any suggestions on needle gauge for CD/T and Nigerians? This will be my first time giving vacs 

Thanks again


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## cmjust0 (Apr 29, 2010)

C/D-T is pretty watery, so I like a 3/4" or 1" x 22ga.  The guage of needle you use really shouldn't be so much about the size of the animal as much as the viscosity of the med.  Here, watery stuff gets a 22ga..  If it's oily (Bo-Se, Ivomec, etc), I like a 20ga or maybe an 18ga, depending on how oily it is.  If it's a suspension (PenG, Excenel, etc) it gets an 18ga.

Poking baby kids with 18ga needles isn't fun, but hey...ya do whatcha gotta do sometimes.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 29, 2010)

I use a 20 gauge needle for just about everything. The thick stuff I use an 18 gauge. Keeps it simple.


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## lupinfarm (Apr 29, 2010)

20g for pretty much everything, 18g for ivomec.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Apr 29, 2010)

I use a 20 gauge, too, for just about everything.  I gave a CD/T to one of my pregnant mini does today and used a 20 gauge.  Just tent the skin up and shoot it in where you pinched.  She didn't even act like I'd done anything.

I used to use a 22 for liquidy stuff, until I actually bent a needle on my buck's skin.  Then he ran away with the needle/syringe still hanging out.  Not good.  lol.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 30, 2010)

Mini-M Ranch said:
			
		

> I use a 20 gauge, too, for just about everything.  I gave a CD/T to one of my pregnant mini does today and used a 20 gauge.  Just tent the skin up and shoot it in where you pinched.  She didn't even act like I'd done anything.
> 
> I used to use a 22 for liquidy stuff, until I actually bent a needle on my buck's skin.  Then he ran away with the needle/syringe still hanging out.  Not good.  lol.


Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.


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