# Are pine shavings really so bad?



## FurryFiasco (Jun 4, 2018)

I have a wire-floored hutch with a completely wooden nesting/sleeping area, and I'm wondering what would be best to put in it.  I'm steering clear of hay, since it molds so easily, so the basic options seem to be either straw or pine shavings.  Straw, I've read, keeps them very warm - which is great in the winter, but what about the summer?   So then I looked to the shavings, and there seem to be mixed reviews about whether or not it is dangerous for rabbits.  It seems that many people say, "It can kill your rabbit!" and others have no problem with it at all (saying it's just cedar that you have to watch out for).  If the risk is minimal, but the benefit is noticeable, I think it might be worth a try.  I'd love to hear what all of you think about this, though!

 Thanks


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## samssimonsays (Jun 4, 2018)

I would never use Cedar shavings but always had great success with Pine. I never used Straw after getting mites, only hay since straw is nutritionally void and they can fill up from munching on it. I just made sure to clean the hay out and give them fresh stuff often. I always had pine shavings under the hay as well. We are in Northern Minnesota and hay did just fine. Also, the only time I ended up with mites was when I used straw. Maybe a fluke but the three separate times I did, they got them.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jun 4, 2018)

FurryFiasco said:


> I have a wire-floored hutch with a completely wooden nesting/sleeping area,


That is unfortunate and no matter what you use, it is not going to be good for sanitation and you may find you will have to clean daily if the rabbits use it to pee and poop on.



FurryFiasco said:


> Straw, I've read, keeps them very warm - which is great in the winter, but what about the summer?


If I may, think you are overthinking this. Straw is fine and stays drier in high humidity, hay is fine but can hold moisture in high humidity, BUT the problem is going to be the wood flooring. I personally would replace it with wire for the health of your rabbits.


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 4, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> That is unfortunate and no matter what you use, it is not going to be good for sanitation and you may find you will have to clean daily if the rabbits use it to pee and poop on.



Thanks for replying!  Hmm, you're right, I guess they might think it's a litter box.  If I lined it with some laminate flooring, do you think that would work alright?  That's assuming that I find a way to make sure they to poop and pee on the wire instead, at least most of the time.  Then I'd just have to clean up a mess every so often (although I'd still replace the bedding regularly). If I could pull that off, do you think it would be okay?  There's room to fit it with a wire tray if need be, but I was hoping this could work out without one. 



Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> If I may, think you are overthinking this. Straw is fine and stays drier in high humidity, hay is fine but can hold moisture in high humidity, BUT the problem is going to be the wood flooring. I personally would replace it with wire for the health of your rabbits.



Haha, you're probably right about me overthinking it! If you think that straw would be alright even in the summer, maybe I'll go with that afterall.  Have you ever had a problem with your rabbits eating the straw and not getting enough nutrition from the hay?

 The main reason I'm steering clear of the hay is because of that rabbit I had with the teary eye. I think you were right about it being caused by the hay.  It's steadily clearing up now (I'm changing her bedding a lot and the weather has been much drier), but I want to make all efforts to avoid that in the future!

Thanks!


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 4, 2018)

samssimonsays said:


> I would never use Cedar shavings but always had great success with Pine. I never used Straw after getting mites, only hay since straw is nutritionally void and they can fill up from munching on it. I just made sure to clean the hay out and give them fresh stuff often. I always had pine shavings under the hay as well. We are in Northern Minnesota and hay did just fine. Also, the only time I ended up with mites was when I used straw. Maybe a fluke but the three separate times I did, they got them.



Thanks for the reply!  I just noticed the last part of your message now.   That's really interesting, I wonder how the straw could cause mites!  Since my bunnies have lop ears (Holland Lops) and are more prone to mites, I'll have to keep an eagle eye out if I do try the straw.  Thanks for letting me know!


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

Pine shavings are perfectly safe for rabbits.  Cedar shavings might smell good but I have heard that they are not good for the rabbits.  I have never had mites on my rabbits from straw.  Maybe it is the area of the country or where you are getting your straw from.  I am in So CA.

Question:  Why do you have a nest box in your wire floored cage if you are not putting it in for a mother to kindle in?  If you are using the nest boxes to keep feet and hocks off the wire, don't do it.  The rabbits usually use them as potty boxes if they are not going to kindle.  This can cause disease and flies will hatch into maggots in the boxes.  The idea behind wire floored cages is that the pee and poop falls through keeping the rabbit healthy and the cage clean.

For your rabbits to have a smooth surface to sit on, get the cheapest 1/2" plain drywall board.  Score it with a utility knife and snap it into 12-14" x 8" pieces (NZW size).  Put a piece in each cage and the rabbits will sit on it.  DO NOT USE green or purple wallboard which is treated for use in moisture areas- poisonous!  The plain wallboard is made of gypsum or chalk between heavy paper and can be chewed by the rabbits without problem.  They will exercise chewing on it, if it gets peed on you can turn it over, and when it gets too small, you replace it.  You can often get broken pieces free or very cheap at the hardware store.  They can show you how to score and snap it into pieces there too.  I used to cut several pieces and store them in old milk crates for my rabbits.  I had a100 holes semi commercial rabbitry at the time. 

If you routinely get sore hocks on your rabbits you need to look to your bloodlines and maybe change your breeding stock.  Sore hocks can be related to rabbits _with thinner hair on hocks_ which may be an inherited trait.  Also check your floor wire.  if it is rough it could be a problem.  I routinely used to torch my cage wire to clean it and if the wire got rusty and too rough replace just the cage bottoms with new wire using cage clips and clip pliers.

If you are using the nest box for kindling, use pine shavings in a thick layer 2" on bottom then top with straw.  The doe will burrow into the straw and occupy her last pregnancy days making nests.  If it is winter, use lots of straw and you might have to add more straw.  If it is hot summer, I use less straw and then take more out of the box as needed for kits.


FYI:  Giving a rabbit with scour pine shavings and straw to eat is an real old time method to cure enteritis.  All roughage no protein for several days and you can pull a scouring rabbit with enteritis through.  I have used it and it works.


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 4, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Pine shavings are perfectly safe for rabbits.  Cedar shavings might smell good but I have heard that they are not good for the rabbits.  I have never had mites on my rabbits from straw.  Maybe it is the area of the country or where you are getting your straw from.  I am in So CA.
> 
> Question:  Why do you have a nest box in your wire floored cage if you are not putting it in for a mother to kindle in?  If you are using the nest boxes to keep feet and hocks off the wire, don't do it.  The rabbits usually use them as potty boxes if they are not going to kindle.  This can cause disease and flies will hatch into maggots in the boxes.  The idea behind wire floored cages is that the pee and poop falls through keeping the rabbit healthy and the cage clean.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply, it's very informative! 

Well, I was planning to use the nest boxes as kindling areas as well as a place for the rabbits to stay warm in the winter.  I thought they might like to sleep there at night too, or to hide if they like. The rest of their hutch is really open, with the back wall made of wood and the rest wire.  If they usually use the nest areas as potty boxes, though, I don't know!  If I were to block them off until kindling time, the rabbits wouldn't get the other benefits.  If I leave it open and don't add bedding but just use wire, they still won't have the straw to snuggle in and stay warm on winter nights.  If I do add bedding, and they use it for litter, then they shouldn't be standing on it.  I'm lost, what do you think I should do?


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

Rabbits can stand a lot of cold weather.  They don't like wet, and wind can be a problem.  Excess heat can kill them.  When we used hutches, we hung tarps around 3 sides of the open hutches to keep out the wind and rain.  They were fine with this.  Using the drywall pieces on the floor wire will give them a place to sit where the wind is blocked underneath and they are off the cold wire.  What area are you where the winters are that cold? 

If your hutches are free standing wooden ones, try screwing plywood sides on for the winter to block wind and rain.  If you have manure pits under the hutches, let the droppings accumulate, put shavings on them to control odor, the heat from the manure pits will help heat the rabbits in the winter.  In the spring unscrew and remove the plywood panels to give air circulation the rest of the year, and clean out the manure pit and till into your garden.  Next winter reattach the panels.


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 4, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Rabbits can stand a lot of cold weather.  They don't like wet, and wind can be a problem.  Excess heat can kill them.  When we used hutches, we hung tarps around 3 sides of the open hutches to keep out the wind and rain.  They were fine with this.  Using the drywall pieces on the floor wire will give them a place to sit where the wind is blocked underneath and they are off the cold wire.  What area are you where the winters are that cold?
> 
> If your hutches are free standing wooden ones, try screwing plywood sides on for the winter to block wind and rain.  If you have manure pits under the hutches, let the droppings accumulate, put shavings on them to control odor, the heat from the manure pits will help heat the rabbits in the winter.  In the spring unscrew and remove the plywood panels to give air circulation the rest of the year, and clean out the manure pit and till into your garden.  Next winter reattach the panels.



I live in Nova Scotia, Canada.  Most of the time, the winter isn't too terrible, but I've grown up here so I'm not sure how to gauge that.  It's just the odd day that the wind is really piercing and or the temperature is downright frigid.  The winter nights are usually about 10 to 15 degrees (Fahrenheit), but the colder ones can get down to negative 10 to 15 degrees.

 I could cover the large wire doors with something, and that would leave a 2 ft x 1.5 ft area open at one side.  Or, I could cover that too.  I have built-in trays beneath the wire floor (it's a three-level hutch, one floor for each rabbit).  There's some airflow between the tray and the wire floor, although I could try and seal that off. Another option which I read about, somewhere, is to hang some canvas down the side(s) to stop some wind and cold but let some ventilation through.  What do you think of this?  I'll use whatever would be best for the rabbits!

To give you a better idea of what my hutch is like, it looks a lot like this picture:
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





That general idea, but different in a few respects.  The wire floor is fixed, but it has a deep tray to be filled with litter, which slides in and out below it.  There is a wall separating the sheltered area from the run area, with a smaller opening for the rabbit to go through (I could add something to block this off).  The total floor dimensions are 6 ft. by 2 ft, with 4.5 feet for run and 1.5 feet for nesting.  It's still in the building stages right now, though - I have yet to add the exterior wooden walls or the wire doors.

I know that's a lot of information to take in, but I thought I would add it in case it's helpful at all!  I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Thanks so much for your time!


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

Is the hutch out in the open yard?  Or is it inside a shed of some kind?  The trays are to catch the bunny raisins.  They do not have to be filled with shavings except to hold the pee or stop odor.  If you leave the tray out of the bottom hutch, it will just fall onto the ground if you are outside.  If the hutches are inside a shed or building or garage, you can definitely use canvas over the sides at night and pull it up for several hours during the warmest part of the day.  Also,stacking bales of straw around the sides and back of the hutches will also serve as insulation. 

If the rabbit hutches are under a separate roof (inside a shed or garage) you can also use work lamps - the kind that look like shiny metal bowls with a light bulb in the middle.  With all wire cages I put a 100 watt light bulb in them and set them on top of the cage top wire.  You will have to hang them somehow.  You can use a heat lamb bulb but you can also use a floodlight bulb which is less hot.  You can't use a heat lamp if the hutches are outside though, and if you have an open pole barn you have to make sure that rain blown in doesn't hit the hot bulb which can make it explode..

I am not familiar about that type of cold since I was always more concerned with using misters to keep my rabbits from dying in the heat here in southern California.  Definitely use the drywall pieces to keep their feet from freezing to the wires which  have heard about in some severe climates.  They sit on the drywall and stay off the wire but if they get poop on the drywall, you just shake it off.  You can also use carpet squares, but the urine will soak into them.  I have used carpet squares soaked in water in the summer to cool rabbits down in 110 degree temps. 

I have also seen short lengths of PVC drain pipe put into the hutch and used as "burrows" for the rabbits to go in.  I don't know much about it since I have never used them.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 4, 2018)

If you need to insulate the hutches, a double wall stuffed with insulation would work as long as the rabbits can't get to it.  I would not use fiberglass insulation but there is new insulation made of recycled fabric.  If you know someone with sheep that doesn't use the wool, you can use that to stuff the walls.  You couldn't keep the insulated walls on the hutches in summer though since the rabbits would get too hot.  The insulated double wall panels would have to be able to be attached to the sides and then removed.  You would still need the drywall pieces for the rabbits to sit on in the cold weather.


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 5, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Is the hutch out in the open yard?  Or is it inside a shed of some kind?  The trays are to catch the bunny raisins.  They do not have to be filled with shavings except to hold the pee or stop odor.  If you leave the tray out of the bottom hutch, it will just fall onto the ground if you are outside.  If the hutches are inside a shed or building or garage, you can definitely use canvas over the sides at night and pull it up for several hours during the warmest part of the day.  Also,stacking bales of straw around the sides and back of the hutches will also serve as insulation.
> 
> If the rabbit hutches are under a separate roof (inside a shed or garage) you can also use work lamps - the kind that look like shiny metal bowls with a light bulb in the middle.  With all wire cages I put a 100 watt light bulb in them and set them on top of the cage top wire.  You will have to hang them somehow.  You can use a heat lamb bulb but you can also use a floodlight bulb which is less hot.  You can't use a heat lamp if the hutches are outside though, and if you have an open pole barn you have to make sure that rain blown in doesn't hit the hot bulb which can make it explode..
> 
> ...




They're out in an open yard.  Stacking bales of straw around them is a great idea!   I'm guessing that they'll be peeing through the wire, so I thought the shavings would be good for holding it and preventing odor like you said.  Does the pee soak into the drywall at all?  Or maybe the rabbits just don't "go" there, that would be nice. 

So, how would this be - If I stacked straw bales around three sides of the hutch, and covered the doors with some sort of insulated material?  I could then either leave some small part of the wire open, or just let the air come in from below (where there's an inch-wide gap along the bottom, between the tray and the wire.  I could seal this off though).   What do you think of that?

Also, what if I tried it out and just saw whether or not they would use the nest boxes as litter boxes?  If they kept them clean,  could I leave it open for them?  I'm not expecting them to be that tidy, but just in case.  The PVC is a cool idea!  I'll have to look into that.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 5, 2018)

Absolutely you can try it.  However, the danger would be - if you are planning to breed these rabbits- that they would learn to use the nest boxes as potties and then potty in the nest box after kindling.  Big problem for the kits.  If the rabbits pee or poop on the drywall pieces it just runs off.

Rabbits will choose a specific spot in their cage to potty.  Don't empty the tray for several days.  Then check where the pile of bunny berries is under the bottom of the cage and you will see the rabbit always has a pile in the same area. put the box in a different location from the poop pile.  This may keep them from pooping in the box.  You have to make sure to place the nest box in a different location from the potty spot too when breeding rabbits.  If you insulate the 3 sides of the hutches with straw bales, and give them a covered box to get into, I would not put anything on the door.  There still needs to be plenty of fresh air in the cage.  Too enclosed an area and the moist air can cause respiratory problems like colds and pneumonia.  Rabbits are cold hardy, it is wet and heat that can harm them.


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 5, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Absolutely you can try it.  However, the danger would be - if you are planning to breed these rabbits- that they would learn to use the nest boxes as potties and then potty in the nest box after kindling.  Big problem for the kits.  If the rabbits pee or poop on the drywall pieces it just runs off.
> 
> Rabbits will choose a specific spot in their cage to potty.  Don't empty the tray for several days.  Then check where the pile of bunny berries is under the bottom of the cage and you will see the rabbit always has a pile in the same area. put the box in a different location from the poop pile.  This may keep them from pooping in the box.  You have to make sure to place the nest box in a different location from the potty spot too when breeding rabbits.  If you insulate the 3 sides of the hutches with straw bales, and give them a covered box to get into, I would not put anything on the door.  There still needs to be plenty of fresh air in the cage.  Too enclosed an area and the moist air can cause respiratory problems like colds and pneumonia.  Rabbits are cold hardy, it is wet and heat that can harm them.



Okay, I think I have a good idea of what to do now.   I think I'll block off the nesting area for at least a few days, at the beginning, and allow them to establish a litter area before I let them in and see how they do.

If I use straw on three sides of the hutch, but leave such a large section of the front open, will the straw really make any difference?  The wire door is 4.5 feet wide.  Do you think it might help at all to cover half of it?  This would provide a bit of a windbreak on that side as well, and they'd still have 2 feet of wire open, if that's enough.


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## Marie28 (Jun 8, 2018)

I know this is a little old but I cant help myself....

We have a "hide" hole/nesting area. It has a removable wood floor for sanitary reasons. We only put pine shavings and hay (mixed hay/grass) for nesting. We have been doing this for over a year and never had any troubles with the adult rabbits using it as a litter box or mold. The babies on the other hand.... I would agree block it until they decide on a potty spot, also avoid putting food in it.

I dont know about your breed but our silver foxes have no trouble in the winter. It got to Negative 20 degrees here. For us at least "hide" hole/nesting area has worked for us. It gives them a place to hide and feel secure while protecting them from the wind and rain/snow. And we have never had a litter born on the wire (Knock on wood).I think it goes along with instinct to hide the babies.


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## FurryFiasco (Jun 8, 2018)

Marie28 said:


> I know this is a little old but I cant help myself....
> 
> We have a "hide" hole/nesting area. It has a removable wood floor for sanitary reasons. We only put pine shavings and hay (mixed hay/grass) for nesting. We have been doing this for over a year and never had any troubles with the adult rabbits using it as a litter box or mold. The babies on the other hand.... I would agree block it until they decide on a potty spot, also avoid putting food in it.
> 
> I dont know about your breed but our silver foxes have no trouble in the winter. It got to Negative 20 degrees here. For us at least "hide" hole/nesting area has worked for us. It gives them a place to hide and feel secure while protecting them from the wind and rain/snow. And we have never had a litter born on the wire (Knock on wood).I think it goes along with instinct to hide the babies.



Thanks for replying!  You're not late at all. 

It's good to know that the nesting areas worked well for you.  What sort of style are they?  Mine are like the ones on the right hand side of the picture (on the first page), but they have walls with a hole to enter. 

My rabbits are Holland Lops...I can't seem to find much on how they do in the cold, other than that all rabbits are more or less cold-hardy.  I guess I'll just do my best to make it cozy and see how it goes!


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## Marie28 (Jun 8, 2018)

This ours. Well the second type.The other one is 3 cages connected and a total pain to move...
The door one the far left is the hide hole door, middle door opens up to the main part of the cage along with the door on the right.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 9, 2018)

If you need  quick inexpensive shelter for the rabbits to put hutches in, look at thread on "quick inexpensive shelter for sheep" posted by Baymule.  It shows several plans for making a Quonset shape hut with stock panel and tarps.  This would shelter the rabbits without having to insulate their hutches.  Hope this helps.


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