# La Mancha ears, the cold, and other such questions



## Sweetened (Jan 9, 2014)

These are likely ridiculous questions.  I'm rolling around the thought of keeping a La Mancha or two in with my herd.  I still can't figure out if I find them adorable or attrocious looking.  I think I like the elf ears best, the entirely missing ears is just... weird to me, acceptable breed standard or not!

Anyway, I have a couple questions I'm asking for people's experience on.  I was initially thinking the small ears would be very cold hardy, but I have small ears and they are NOT cold hardy at all.  Is there a higher risk with frostbite on their ears than say, a boer's?

How are the bucks for meat?  Are they poor yeilding or do they deliver a worthwhile carcass? 

There may be more questions as we get into the hands on experience with the Manchas.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2014)

Good questions... I live in NC so not and issue here. They could wear ear muffs. 

The LAMANCHA IS BEAUTIFUL! IMHO
Not sure about meat yields... great for dairy though!
And just to help you along the Lamancha path....  

Look how sweet



 

 Now come on... that's adorable

 

Mini mancha baby "Trouble"


 
Who needs long ears when you are this gorgeous already!


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## Sweetened (Jan 9, 2014)

ARE THOSE YOURS!?

Oh my gosh.  That's actually the colouration I want if I get them.  Do you find they breed true to colour when they're the same?


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## Mike CHS (Jan 9, 2014)

LOL I don't think I could eat something that adorable.


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## Sweetened (Jan 9, 2014)

I could.  Beautifully delicious, and the pelt would be so beautiful.  The get less adorable as they grow up.

That was dark... I'm such a dark person.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2014)

LOL Yes they are mine.
*Millie *-The mom is a small Lamancha... we got her for milk production and for making mini-manchas! 
_*Trouble*_ is her doeling- a mini.... the Nigerian Buck we bred Millie to was *Will* a broken Buckskin.... yet Trouble is identical to her mom just with blue eyes. We recently acquired a Chamoisee Buckling- well almost a buck now for the purpose of trying to keep the Chamoisee color going he is also polled. That is what Millie and trouble are, chamoisee.  I love the color pattern too! Just a heads up... NEVER get a Lamancha with horns. They are also extremely smart goats. They are very quiet... my daughter says it is because they are always calculating and do not like to bring any attention to themselves! Naughty goats! 

As dairy goats go they are not that great for eating. Many will cross the Nubian and Alpine dairy goats with a meat goat though. We have Kiko  and New Zealand Meat Goats... we do not cross our meat and dairy goats though. 


And yes... very DARK! pelts!


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## Sweetened (Jan 9, 2014)

Gah!  So beautiful.  Chamoisee, GOT IT.  My Ober is Chamoisee.

Why no horns on Lamancha?  Propensity to get into things?  I'm pro-horns.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2014)

I like horns too but I am being really honest here. Her doeling was the only goat we have _ever_ had disbudded. I know it sounds terrible but we will be having Millie's horns surgically removed. My ND's and the big Kikos... no problem.... she is dangerous though- not to us but to the other goats and the LGD's  and the LGD pups and to all the other does kids.  Her best friend is the listeria goat.  The breeder had surgery and couldn't do the horns.... never again will I have a Lamancha with horns. With her it really is all about those horns. That is why we also got the polled buck because I don't want to have to do the horns but no way no how with this breed. IMO

They are extremely intelligent and watch everything... smartest goat I've ever seen.


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## Sweetened (Jan 9, 2014)

Fair enough.  I have a doe like that, Agnes.  She's a boer X, maybe Savannah.  She tried to kill a buckling I had.  I was going to sell her until we not longer had the buckling, and I decided to see if she kids out and then butcher her all things depending.  She's not vicious with us, but I don't think pulling her horns would change how she is or the damage she does.  I'm not sure really, my only experiences with polled animals has been badly polled ones, so I might change my thoughts on it should I get one that's well done.

Thanks for your honesty about it


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2014)

Polled goats are not the same as disbudded. They have the polled gene so they will naturally never grow horns. 

In Millies case it is all about her knowing how to use them... she flips the young animals... take the horns and she may butt but no chance of stabbing something and no flipping.


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## Mike CHS (Jan 9, 2014)

Southerm - do you keep the horns on your Kikos?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2014)

Oh YES!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Those spiraling beauties! A kiko just isn't a Kiko without them.


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## Sweetened (Jan 9, 2014)

I need to learn to stop using those terms interchangeably!  Sorry 

Fair enough, my girl's a headbutter, and puts her head down so she ends up under the goats, poking them.


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## babsbag (Jan 12, 2014)

Dairy goats know how to use their horns, maybe because they are  smart...never thought about it that way. All of my dairy goats are either disbudded or polled, NO horns in my herd. On the other hand, I also have boers, and they don't use the horns like the dairy do. I have a few of those that are disbudded, but most I left the horns on. Their horns don't get a big as the Alpines either.


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## Jewls819 (Jan 28, 2014)

I just got my first pair of Lamancha/Saanen cross does.  I have Nigerians and Fainters too.  All of my goats have horns accept a naturally polled fainter doeling.  These two came to use without horns...One is expecting and we plan of disbudding all the kids even though we have always been against it.  Those horns just look too dangerous.


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## sawfish99 (Jan 28, 2014)

We have Lamanchas and Oberhaslis.  My Lamancha herd sire almost meets the Oberhasli breed standards.  Regarding the disbudding, it is simple for us - you can't show a horned dairy goat, so we disbud.  And we disbud every kid, regardless of their fate.  If I decide to grow one out for meat, then I don't want one or two in the herd with horns.  I had 4 whethers last year that we were going to raise as meat, but then a buyer came along that wanted them all for controlling brush on his property and I happily sold.
We did cook 1 7 month old lamancha buck last fall.  He was about 85-90 lbs live weight.  The meat is similar to venison, but the muscle was a little more stringy than venison.


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## rebelINny (Feb 4, 2014)

I disbud all of mine but I have one Alpine doe that has one stunted horn and I haven't wanted to put her through having it cut off. However last year she killed one of my 4 month old doelings by puncturing two holes in her midsection and the vet could do nothing. Now I'm just waiting for her to kid and I'm selling her to someone that knows she can be rough on the other goats. She happens to also be the herd queen and that doesn't help matters.


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## hilarie (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm a stranger here meself, hoping to make new friends...
I have one full bred LaMancha and 4 crosses, including the daughter of the full bred.  I LOVE my Violet; she was always my favorite (shhhh, don't tell the others ).  She was the goat I learned to hand milk on, and she was so patient and sweet.  At the time I was doing a goat husbandry internship, and I thought LMs were the weirdest looking goats I'd ever seen.  By the end of summer they had stolen my heart and I took my stipend in goats.  She is definitely the omega goat: last on the totem pole and last to get everything, so naturally she gets a lot of extras and privileges from me .  I kept two doelings from this spring's breeding, and they were both LM/Oberhasli crosses.


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## hilarie (Feb 4, 2014)

rebelINny said:


> I disbud all of mine but I have one Alpine doe that has one stunted horn and I haven't wanted to put her through having it cut off. However last year she killed one of my 4 month old doelings by puncturing two holes in her midsection and the vet could do nothing. Now I'm just waiting for her to kid and I'm selling her to someone that knows she can be rough on the other goats. She happens to also be the herd queen and that doesn't help matters.


How sad.  That's exactly why I disbud too - less chance of anyone getting hurt.  I brought home an 8 month old wether with TERRIBLE scurs that curved into his skull (I know, I should've had my head examined, but I loved this boy dearly and he's paid me back a thousand fold). Not wanting to face a lifetime of trimming them, I bit the bullet and had him dehorned 4/13.  It was a LONG haul to healing and lots of traumatic dressing changes; but it CAN be done and I can go into detail with anyone who wants to hear about it.  I'm an APRN so I also know what I'm doing with this stuff  Not at all sorry I did it.  He's 100% and the lovin'est goat I ever knew now, and not at all shy about having a buttfest with the girls! so obviously it didn't traumatize him.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 4, 2014)

hilarie said:


> I'm a stranger here meself, hoping to make new friends...
> I have one full bred LaMancha and 4 crosses, including the daughter of the full bred.  I LOVE my Violet; she was always my favorite (shhhh, don't tell the others ).  She was the goat I learned to hand milk on, and she was so patient and sweet.  At the time I was doing a goat husbandry internship, and I thought LMs were the weirdest looking goats I'd ever seen.  By the end of summer they had stolen my heart and I took my stipend in goats.  She is definitely the omega goat: last on the totem pole and last to get everything, so naturally she gets a lot of extras and privileges from me .  I kept two doelings from this spring's breeding, and they were both LM/Oberhasli crosses.



Hi! I see you joined a long time ago  but haven't been very active... hope that changes. Welcome back to BYH! 

Great post! I had a buckling done yesterday and was discussing mt doe (LM with horns) .. I have posted about her I think on this thread. We have never needed a doe de-horned til her! I love Millie but the horns MUST go. I was talking with my one vet but am still not clear on the whole process. 

I would loveto hear the details of the process. I know it is a bit graphic and awful but very helpful info if you'd like to provide it. 

I  the Lamanchas too! No eared goats are simply beautiful, adorable, practical. and wonderful!


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## hilarie (Feb 4, 2014)

I did join a long time ago, and yes, I'm baaaaack.....
Did your buckling have full horns?
Mine was essentially a young adult so it was really an adult dehorning   Like you, there was no choice.  I'm no stranger to gross procedures, so I actually assisted.  (I don't recommend it for the faint of heart.  Sit in the waiting room and read a magazine.)  Basically they put him under with a barbiturate shot and when he's zoned, they just literally saw off the horns with an OB wire, the same thing they use to trim horns, only they do it right close to the skull.  (Remember, he's asleep.  They said sometimes the goat cries out a little, but he never did - ZZ'd right thru it). They cauterize the bejabbers out of it, then bandage up. Now you have two huge "defects" under there, which will take 2-3 months to heal.  I had no idea it would take so long, and I wish I'd known; I'd still have done it, but I'd have been better prepared.  The goat's face will be swollen for a day or two, and you may have to unwrap the dressing the next day and rewrap to take the pressure off.  This is the day after surgery.


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## hilarie (Feb 4, 2014)

Then commenced the summer of changing the bandage every 3 days or so.  You could probably get away with doing it less often, but I'm an APRN and it bugged me to wait even 3 days between; I wanted to be sure no infection was setting in, and sometimes he managed (or the babies he was penned with helped) to unravel the dressing.  The first few weeks of dressings changes were AWFUL for everyone.  It was painful, he hollered, I died a thousand deaths, I thought he'd never forgive me.  It was a 2 person job, done on the milking stand. In the third week I tried a dressing material we use in the clinic where I work on human injuries, called Adaptic.  GODSEND.  It's like vaseline impregnated heavy gauze.  Sticks to nothing, and the old dressing slides right off.  It was a game changer.  His healing went into overdrive, and you could just see the defects closing up every time the dressing came off.  No pain, no trauma.  Fast forward to 3 months later:


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## hilarie (Feb 4, 2014)

Today his head looks completely normal.  He has two tiny little scurs that don't grow and don't wiggle, and enable him to headbutt joyfully all his little girlfriends.  He runs to the gate with a happy snort, inviting chin scratches and seems to have absolutely no memory of the pain of last summer.  He loves me completely and has apparently forgiven all the awful things I had to do.  I just love goats; they are so *zen*.  Except when they're being total embodiments of entropy.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks. That is how my one vet ( I use 3) described it. I was hoping to do this in Feb - winter obviously better so as to not deal with fly strike. The vet I was going to have do it broke her arm so not sure if that is going to happen. The doe is 2 years old and she wasn't disbudded due to the breeder having rotator cuff surgery at the time. I really didn't care because I have lots of horned animals... but this doe is sweet to people but a jerk to the LGD's and other goats with her horns... it has gotten really bad. The only goats I have disbudded ( excluding animals purchased that were disbudded by their breeders) have been a mini mancha doeling and now our newest addition a lamancha buckling. NO LAMANCHA SHOULD HAVE HORNS! 

I have the kids sedated and given a nerve block. 
I am well versed in the surgical world... so no biggy. Both human and animals. Although I cannot stomach declawing a cat. Really makes me ill, have no idea why. 

Is the *Adaptic *something I can order or will I need to ask my vet to get it?

Did you give any anti-inflammatory those first few days? what about anti-biotics?


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2014)

I had scurs removed from my buck when he was about 10 months old. HORRID surgery. He did get an infection   I did it in Feb and it was at least July before I stopped worrying about flies. The top of his head was open to his sinuses and when he would snort or sneeze it would come out the top of his head.

I used sanitary pads with the sticky strip on the back for bandages. I stuck the strip to a long piece of gauze and used the ends of the gauze to tie the bandage on under his chin. Trying to keep a bandage tied on was a trick. And I was doing all this alone. I tried to hold it all in place with vet wrap and it would always slip off.

Personally it is not something I will ever repeat, but I understand the need, the horns can be dangerous when they want them to be.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 4, 2014)

Thanks @babsbag  I do worry about this a great deal. She is just wretched with those horns. I also know this is a painful procedure and she is one strong bullheaded doe. She wasn't bred this year so that gives me from now til the fall. It is a big decision.


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## rebelINny (Feb 5, 2014)

I would have Mocha de-horned exept she has another health issue as well as her being 6 years old now. I planned to retire her soon anyway.


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## hilarie (Feb 5, 2014)

Southern - They gave William (yes, that's his name, Sweet William, and he is  ) a long acting antibiotic injection, and sent me home with 2 injections of banamine (NSAID). I have to say that I don't think he really suffered a lot of pain except with the dressing changes. His appetite was good and after the first day, he hung out and played a bit with the babies, who he loves. Babsbag is right; infection is the biggest fear and it's why I wanted to change the dressing so much. Because I did it in April, I worried constantly about fly strike, and even when I could have left the bandage off theoretically, I didn't dare until those defects were covered with pink skin. Babs, I can't IMAGINE how you dealt with that dressing by yourself (and all that yuck out of the sinuses, poor thing). Luckily I have a dear friend/housemate, a city mouse turned country mouse , who bravely helped me with it nearly every time. I'd apply adaptic, 4x4 gauze, wrap some Conform dressing (stretch gauze), THEN vet wrap (or the human equivalent) and THEN tape it for security. Be careful not to wrap too tight - it's easy to do. You can probably get adaptic thru a medical supply house (human), or it's possible your vet can get it, although mine had never heard of it (she loved it, tho.)  If all else fails, and you decide to do this, message me and I'll SEND you some. I wouldn't ever want me or a goat to go thru adult dehorning without it.


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## hilarie (Feb 5, 2014)

I am well versed in the surgical world... so no biggy. Both human and animals. Although I cannot stomach declawing a cat. Really makes me ill, have no idea why.


I'm with you on cat claws. That is just wrong - taking the first knuckle off?? Really??


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## Southern by choice (Feb 5, 2014)

Thank You @hilarie


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## babsbag (Feb 5, 2014)

Southern, I have seen people use handle bar grips over the horns, also wrapping them in vet wrap and then duct tape. Had a friend once that used a piece of PVC placed horizontally between the horns and then wrapped into place with vet wrap to keep the goat from sticking their head into the stock panel. I personally like the idea of the bike handle bar grips over then end of her horns.


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## Cara Peachick (Feb 9, 2014)

We have Lamanchas and are in TN, so the cold isn't a huge issue, but I can't imagine their ears ever getting frostbite.  Everything is so close to their head.

Ears on goats look funny to me now - like they have something extra hanging off their heads!  It's all what you are used to.

My first year having goats, I kept my single kid horned.  She quickly learned to flip my collie and then went after chickens.  Since then, everyone has been disbudded (even though I HATE doing it!) and I am slowly growing polled genes in my herd too so we will have to disbud less.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 27, 2014)

Well we are scheduled to have Millie's horns removed.
I cannot say I am happy about this but the situation at this point has become very bad.

I am going to start a new thread about the decision, the procedure, and the recovery.

I will explain more on the thread. I will also add this to my article on Horns? Dis-bud? Polled?
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/

@hilarie - thank you so much for your input, as well as all of you for sharing your experiences.


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## SA Farm (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm pro-horns. I had La Manchas years ago and they were great in the cold. Those tiny ears are so close to their head that they don't have the same issues that the 'normal' eared goats have with the bitter cold. (I also agree that the elf ears are adorable and the no-ears creep me out)
They were also great, never had a problem with any of them with their horns. Perhaps because I got them from great tempered stock? 
To me, horns are only an issue if the stock is aggressive, in which case the stock gets sold or eaten. 
Problem solved.

I would love to get a La Mancha doe and breed mini-manchas, but they really aren't very common where I live and I really shouldn't be adding any more animals to my farm anyway!


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## hilarie (Mar 2, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Well we are scheduled to have Millie's horns removed.
> I cannot say I am happy about this but the situation at this point has become very bad.
> 
> I am going to start a new thread about the decision, the procedure, and the recovery.
> ...



Southern - Please keep me in the loop.  I wasn't thrilled about having William done, but despite the long recovery, I'm SO glad I did it.  He's better than ever, shows no evidence of remembering the trauma, is sweet as the day is long (hence his name: Sweet William), and is no threat to anybody.  Case closed.  If you have ANY questions, please message me.  I'm no vet expert, but Ive been thru this once and I'm an APRN and know something about healing.  Good luck!


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## Southern by choice (Mar 2, 2014)

hilarie said:


> Southern - Please keep me in the loop.  I wasn't thrilled about having William done, but despite the long recovery, I'm SO glad I did it.  He's better than ever, shows no evidence of remembering the trauma, is sweet as the day is long (hence his name: Sweet William), and is no threat to anybody.  Case closed.  If you have ANY questions, please message me.  I'm no vet expert, but Ive been thru this once and I'm an APRN and know something about healing.  Good luck!



My thread is here...
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/decision-to-de-horn-2yr-old-doe.28257/

She was done  yesterday- will update the thread in a little while.
and thank you.


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