# Keeping goats penned



## Buster (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm new to the concept of goat keeping. My wife and I hadn't seriously considered it until recently, but have decided to investigate them as a possible source of food. Please forgive me if I ask stupid questions. 

We have several neighbors who keep goats, and they seem to spend almost as much time on the outside of their fenced pastures as they do on the inside. I have read in several places they are master "escape artists". That is now probably our biggest concern and the greatest hurdle to us making the leap to raising goats. We own a very small 8 acre farm with neighbors fairly close by on three sides, and the last thing I want to do is raise an animal that is going to create a nuisance for these good folks.

All that to say, how do you go about keeping your goats penned where you want them to be? We don't want to pen them very tightly, as we prefer for our animals to be able to roam about in a reasonable manner. We have cattle/hog panels, but not enough to cover our pastures. 

I'm very intrigued by electric netting, and would especially like to hear about any experience you may have with it, but am interested in any and all methods used to keep goats where they are supposed to be.

Thanks!


----------



## lilhill (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi and Welcome.  We raise Nigerian Dwarf goats and use 2x4" 5' tall welded wire fencing.  Never had an escape in the four years we've been doing this.  I'm sure that for larger goats and horned goats (especially bucks with horns), this type fencing wouldn't work.


----------



## TxMom (Jul 18, 2009)

I'm using 2x4 inch welded wire also, and mine have escaped several times.  Mostly at "seams"...like where one roll of fencing meets the next roll...if they are not extremely tightly connected all the way down, they can somehow squeeze through.  We had ours connected about 3-4 inches off the ground, and the silly goats somehow squeezed UNDER it.  I don't know how they do it...SERIOUSLY!!!  Also, they've gotten out where the fence post is next to the corner of the house in the front and in the back...  When we put this fence up, it was for dogs and chickens, not goats.  I will definitely do things differently on the next fence.


----------



## lilhill (Jul 18, 2009)

Uh-oh.  When we connected the rolls, we overlapped by three squares all the way down, so there were no "seams" to squeeze through, and there's only about 1/2" between the bottom of the fence and the ground.  If a goat can get their head under it, they'll figure out how to get the rest of their body to follow.


----------



## Chirpy (Jul 18, 2009)

My Nigis are in a 6 ft. high 2x4 welded wire enclosure  - it's my chicken run.   There is chicken wire buried 18 inches into the ground that is attached to the welded wire and the welded wire is stapled to 4x4 posts every 8 1/2 feet around the enclosure.   They have no chance of getting out of that fenced area.

However, they get to free roam most of every day with the chickens.   My dairy goats are in a temporary fenced area using horse round pen panels with chain link fencing binder twined to it.   The dairy goats have yet to get out of that but the Nigis go in and out at will by going under the fencing.  When we finish the dairy goats permanent fencing we will be attaching the chain link to 2x4s at the top and bottom of the fencing and stapling the chain link to it to make sure no one goes over or under it.


----------



## nightshade (Jul 18, 2009)

Hi I have Nubians mostly (10) as well as one pygmy and one pygmy x. I have mostly 4ft chain link fencing as well as some 4ft live stock fencing. DO not like the livestock fencing because they can eaily get their heads stick in it. And will never use it again, I will use the 2x4 fence or chain link as I expand their areas. 

I have had smaller ones push out under the fence even though it is fastened on the posts tight to the ground. Fixed that by putting a board between the posts on the ground and stapling the fence to it. I put our post in at 8ft centers just in case of something like that. But have had no other problems. I do though let mine out of the fence a few times a week to eat off my mom's yard and graze in the brushy hill side between our two properties.


----------



## username taken (Jul 19, 2009)

Buster said:
			
		

> I'm very intrigued by electric netting, and would especially like to hear about any experience you may have with it, but am interested in any and all methods used to keep goats where they are supposed to be.
> 
> Thanks!


It works very very well, but you do have to be prepared for the possibility of one getting its head stuck in the mesh once in a blue moon. Most of the time, they are okay, sometimes a little woozy and not feeling so well after you get them out, very occasionally one dies from it. But its not very common and I think the benefits of it outweigh the cons


----------



## ()relics (Jul 19, 2009)

keep in mind you not only have to keep your goats in but you must keep the predators out ; unless you have a guardian animal...we have a donkey......I use cattle panels that are 16' long and 54" tall...some goats have jumped over them but most get used to them and stay inside without issues....Remember the biggest predator of goats in the US are dogs either feral or the neighbors pets.....get a donkey....if your fence can hold her you will have no worries.


----------



## OHMYKIDS (Jul 20, 2009)

I have 2 boys in one pen and 2 girls in another one.  I use field fencing 4 feet tall.  When I first got my goats, one girl wanted out but they are all content to stay in their pen.  The only other time I had one of them get out was because it was scratching up against the fence and rolled out underneath it.  He even stayed right by the fence so when I saw him, he could go back in.  We have rocky terrain and it's not leveled, so we have that issue.  They have no reason to be outside of the pen because the toys and food/water is all in there.

Although when the boy wants the girl, we might have issues.  They're still young right now (5 months old)


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2009)

We have some woven wire fencing, but most of the property is fenced with 4 to 6 strands of very hot 12-1/2ga smooth hi-tensile wire.  We also use a bit of electric 16ga aluminum and some polywire here or there, but after using the polywire...I'll never use aluminum again.  

If I had it to do again, I wouldn't have wasted my time on woven wire at all...  I'd have gone 100% electric.

Woven wire is more expensive, much harder to work with, and allows the animal to put physical pressure on it and break it down.  Welded wire, in my opinion, is even worse than woven wire because it won't flex off a perfectly flat horizontal plane.  Talk about a PITA...try running welded wire over a hump in the ground. 

Our goats don't go closer than a foot or so to the electric fences..  The power was out for six days this past January, and only one goat was brave enough to test it out and go from one field into another..  I could have prevented that with a car battery and a backup DC energizer -- or even my cheapo 12v inverter -- but I got lazy..    Run of the mill "momentary" power outages are of no concern to me whatsoever...

Not to mention, cross fencing or sectioning is a breeze -- and _cheap_ -- when your perimeter fences are electric.  Drive a few t-posts, string some wire, make a few connections, and you're done.  I fenced off a two-section kid pen that was probably double the size of an average suburban backyard in a few hours with t-posts and polywire.  I even wired in a cutoff switch so I could be lazy and slip _through_ the fence instead of having to walk the extra 50' and fool with the gate handles...  

The key to electric fence is the ground system..._remember -- the ground is half the fence!_  Drive *real* ground rods -- plural -- and be sure to run heavy enough wire to them and connect them tight enough to carry the load back to the energizer.  So many people spend hours running a decent fence only to wrap an old oxidized length of 16ga aluminum around a stick of rebar poked haphazardly into the dirt and call it a "ground."  

Don't be one of those people...

If you get your grounding system right, you'll automatically bypass about 90% of the problems so many other people seem to experience with electric fences.

Good luck!


----------



## Aped (Jul 22, 2009)

I have yet to put up fence bit I see most people seem to have welded wire rather than the woven wire that I read was pretty much mandatory. So  i guess welded wire is just fine as long as it is tight?


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2009)

Aped said:
			
		

> I have yet to put up fence bit I see most people seem to have welded wire rather than the woven wire that I read was pretty much mandatory. So  i guess welded wire is just fine as long as it is tight?


If you've got perfectly flat, level ground with no humps, hills, high spots, draws, ditches, or valleys, it'll be fine.  If your ground is like mine...rolling and dynamic...you'll want to shoot whoever invented welded-wire fence.

To illustrate, here's a little experiment for ya..  Take a sheet of printer paper and try to 'fence' it over the mouse on your desk..  See how it torques, bends, and bows around?  That's what happens when you try to run welded wire over a hump in the ground...not fun.  Welded wire flexes vertically, specifically to follow the contour of the ground.

But, again...I even hate woven wire now that I've run so much hi-tensile.


----------



## ohiofarmgirl (Jul 22, 2009)

dont waste your time or money with anything but electric. we use the woven wire mostly as a visual but we spent a lot of time having the dogs bring back the goats.... so we just went all electric and have not regretted it.


----------



## kstaven (Jul 23, 2009)

Woven wire and a single hot wire 8 inches off the ground did the trick for us. After a month we never powered the wire up again. When we get a new goat in we will fire up the fencer until they learn.


----------



## Buster (Jul 23, 2009)

Very helpful suggestions so far. Please keep them coming.

I'm wondering if anyone has considered combining the electric netting with single strands of hot wire, the wire on the inside for the goats (mostly to keep them out of the netting) surrounded by netting to keep out predators. 

Is this something that might work?


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 23, 2009)

For predator control, I prefer strands of hot on the outside and a big dog on the inside.


----------



## username taken (Jul 23, 2009)

until the big dog on the inside remembers he is a predator

yes, the hot wire inside the netting would work, thats a darn good idea actually


----------



## kstaven (Jul 24, 2009)

username taken said:
			
		

> until the big dog on the inside remembers he is a predator
> 
> yes, the hot wire inside the netting would work, thats a darn good idea actually


That is why a person TRAINS a dog very well from the time it is a pup. I have four dogs that run with my goats and cattle.


----------



## lilhill (Jul 24, 2009)

kstaven said:
			
		

> username taken said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I, too, have a GP in with my goats.  But, don't throw a dog in with the goats and expect them to train themselves.  Usually ends in disaster for the goats.  

I use hot wire on the inside of my buck pens to keep them off the fences; however, never on the inside where babies are.  My neighbor found one of his kids had managed to get between the fence and the hotwire and electrocuted itself.  Sad and so preventable.


----------



## ()relics (Jul 24, 2009)

kstaven said:
			
		

> username taken said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...a donkey eats grass...No training necessary....


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 24, 2009)

Llamas too! Just have to find a llama that is naturally a guard and likes goats.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 24, 2009)

ut said:
			
		

> until the big dog on the inside remembers he is a predator





			
				kstaven said:
			
		

> That is why a person TRAINS a dog very well from the time it is a pup. I have four dogs that run with my goats and cattle.





			
				lilhill said:
			
		

> I, too, have a GP in with my goats.  But, don't throw a dog in with the goats and expect them to train themselves.  Usually ends in disaster for the goats.


I think it all depends on the breed and the individual dog..  We have a Sarplaninac, and he didn't really need any training to do his thing.  He was born and raised around goats, but he's not "bonded" to anything..  When we go into the barnyard, he comes over for a good scratching just like any other dog would....whereas, we've seen lots of LGDs that truly believe they're goats and act nothing like dogs whatsoever..

Characteristic of the breed, our dog simply has zero prey drive, an enormous frame, and is naturally fear aggressive..  That's really all that's required of a good guardian dog.

I've literally held the door open and invited him into the chicken coop with me before, but he won't go.  He knows a chicken is no threat, so he's not afraid enough to attack one...they seem to make him a nervous wreck with all their flapping and squawking, so he backs away from the coop door like "oooooh no...too much excitement for me!"  

He's a good boy, for sure.


----------



## lilhill (Jul 24, 2009)

> I think it all depends on the breed and the individual dog.


Exactly.


----------



## Buster (Jul 24, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> For predator control, I prefer strands of hot on the outside and a big dog on the inside.


Do you keep your dog out with the goats all the time? I have a wonderful lab, and she watches to the chickens and turkeys I have on the front of the property, and that is where she will stay,. 

The goats and meat chickens will  be on the back few acres, and this is where a second dog would watch if I did it that way. I would worry about a dog being isolated like that and having to stay out there ALL the time.

Have you found this to be an issue at all? Maybe I am worrying about nothing.

Glad to hear from others my idea might work, though. I may just try that.


----------



## lilhill (Jul 24, 2009)

My Great Pyr stays with the goats 24/7.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 27, 2009)

Buster said:
			
		

> Do you keep your dog out with the goats all the time? I have a wonderful lab, and she watches to the chickens and turkeys I have on the front of the property, and that is where she will stay,.
> 
> The goats and meat chickens will  be on the back few acres, and this is where a second dog would watch if I did it that way. I would worry about a dog being isolated like that and having to stay out there ALL the time.


Our LGD came off the truck and went into the barnyard almost a year ago, and he hasn't set foot outside it since.  He's just where he wants to be.

You gotta understand...a good LGD isnt what most folks are used to in a dog.  They don't cry at the door when it rains or snows or the wind howls -- they could pretty much care less.  It's not uncommon to look out the window and notice that it's raining only to see the big goofy dog laying stretched out in the weeds, sound asleep.  

He's never happier than when it's about 10* outside and the humans feel like we're going to freeze to death....that's when he takes running fits and wants to play.  In the summer, he blows a coat that would spin a sweater for John Candy, so he tolerates the heat quite well.. 

Suffice it to say they're built to be outdoors.



			
				buster said:
			
		

> The goats and meat chickens will  be on the back few acres, and this is where a second dog would watch if I did it that way. I would worry about a dog being isolated like that and having to stay out there ALL the time.
> 
> Have you found this to be an issue at all? Maybe I am worrying about nothing.


Nah..  I think ours could probably do with another canine companion, and they say that two dogs work better than one dog because of the tendency for coyotes and wolves to send out two groups -- one to fight the LGD, and another to kill the stock...but he's not going stir crazy or anything like that.  He's got his goats, and goats make good companion animals for almost every species -- including humans!

Afterall, there's a reason why they used to keep goats with high-strung racehorses.  They were so good at keeping the horses calm and collected that horse owners had to be vigilant of their competitors sneaking in to "get their goat" before a big race, to upset the horse...hence the old saying.


----------



## angelib1 (Jul 29, 2009)

I have always kept female dogs, because coyotes will sent a female in heat to lure a male dog out. then the rest of the pack runs out and shreds the dog before you can do any thing about it. Gut renching, I may still be traumatized. (Yep, still traumatized!)

My dog protects all animals on our proprty including chickens and rabbits. she sits in front of their pen and scans the surroundings. It is really funny to watch, because she is so serious about it. she also is good with the animals (and kids)if the rabbits get out,she brings them back. She lets baby goats try to nurse on her (also funny). What is she? Mutt.









If I could clone her I could make a mint..she is nine yrs. old and never had puppies. Dosen't like the boys, they have cooties I guess.

Llama's are great too you only need one that way they bond to the goats and not each other.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 29, 2009)

Your dog looks to have a fair amount of border collie in her..  We have two BCs and love them dearly.

I'll tell you this, though...if either of our BCs went up against an average sized coyote in this area, they'd be ripped limb from limb.  Our 'yotes seem to be supersized...like, GSD sized.


----------



## Buster (Jul 31, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Your dog looks to have a fair amount of border collie in her.


And the head has the shape of a Rottweiler.  Good combination.


----------



## onedozenphyllises (Aug 3, 2009)

We have four Nubians and use livestock panels to fence in their permanent pen.  They have NEVER made any attempt to break free.  In fact, we let them out loose from time to time when we're working outside, and they either stay glued to our sides, or they want back in the pen.  We've also never had anyone get stuck in it.  Our buck "thinks" he's stuck in it from time to time, in that he stands there with his head through the fence hollering, but he always has plenty of room to get his head out if he would just BACK UP.  

We like it for pen fencing since it's inexpensive and very easy to put up.  We plan to put up pasture fencing for them this fall/winter and I'd like to use electric for that.  

We keep a Great Pyr with ours and he does a great job.  The goats like him and he likes them.  He's very affectionate toward us, too, but has no problem staying outside all the time (and yes, he sleeps out in the rain, by choice).   We got him from another family with goats that he was already guarding, but he was having some compatibility problems with their female Pyr.  In short, she HATED him and henpecked him all day long.  Poor guy.


----------

