# Breeding questions



## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 6, 2016)

We will be moving and buying my aunt and uncles 5acre small farm. We are moving this year but wont be introducing meat rabbits till later next year. So I am just doing my work at gathering the information needed to have a successful rabbit production.

I will create different threads for each of my questions just to keep my info gathering organized lol

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Right now we have chickens and inbreeding isn't a concern.

now with rabbits is there a safe inbreeding technique or is it just best to not inbreed at all?

my idea was to have our starting colony be made up of 3 females and 2 males.

I figured at first to use Male A to bred the 3 females with first round to see what type of kits we get meat wise etc. As we plan on also using the pelts for our own crafts (so the fur consistency isnt a big deal to us), but meat production is. 

Then next round use Male B to bred with the females to compare meat production and which male would be use as the main male with the main females

From their I figured we could keep 3 females (one from each main female) that we like the personality of and body mass to have a second colony with and use the non main male to bred with.

Is that smart and self sustainable?

Now my question with inbreeding is really about when introducing a new buck. Could we take a buck from say Colony A (which is the main colony) and use him in colony A when we introduce fresh blood of females to that colony when its time (if we introduced new females we would cull our buck also and keep his best offspring males)?

As when it's time to introduce new blood into colony A for females it would be from either our farm store or my cousin's meet rabbit setup (which our starter bucks will be coming from). Id prefer getting our fresh blood from my cousin since I knew where the rabbits are coming from, but unsure since our starting bucks would come from my cousin if we would have to worry about inbreeding. 

My cousin keeps non of their kits unless asked (they don't keep for themselves), but bring in fresh buck and doe blood when they need to retire their main breeders.

Is it best to have a completely fresh buck for colony B or is it safe to use a buck from colony A litter?
(colony B buck will be breding with any offspring we deem good females from colony A)

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Now my next two questions is more about the breeding animals directly.

I don't want to bred our females to death, even though their sole purpose minus the manure for fertilizing is meat for our freezer/table. Is there a healthy breeding schedule to do, that is good for the female? as in x amount of months in between or something like that.

How long is it good to use females and buck for breeding before it's best to phase them out? Or is there a way to tell, okay this female would probably do best in the next cull than to continuing pushing as a breeder?

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I don't know if this helps with the last few questions but our meat rabbits won't be purebreds. We plan on crossing breeds so to get the best of two diff meat breeds and maybe a better meat production (dressing) out on the rabbit.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 6, 2016)

Hi! These are very smart questions about breeding. Inbreeding is good. It helps isolate preferable traits, and get rid of unwanted ones. I would only go as far as to breed half siblings, though. Some raisers disagree, and suggest full-sibling breeding, but that could cause deformities in the kits. Your breeding plan looks great.  Try not to introduce to many animals from other rabbitries. That could ruin all your progress with inbreeding, but it also could help. It is a bit of a gamble. If you rebreed your does when the litter is 6 weeks old, she will have 2 weeks between litters to rest. If you are not in need of rapid production, though, rebreeding when the litter is weaned would be better. That gives her a whole month of rest, but also only gives you a few litters a year.  A good meat cross is a New Zealand/ Californian cross, or a New Zealand crossed with any other meat breed. Have fun!


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> Hi! These are very smart questions about breeding. Inbreeding is good. It helps isolate preferable traits, and get rid of unwanted ones. I would only go as far as to breed half siblings, though. Some raisers disagree, and suggest full-sibling breeding, but that could cause deformities in the kits. Your breeding plan looks great.  Try not to introduce to many animals from other rabbitries. That could ruin all your progress with inbreeding, but it also could help. It is a bit of a gamble. If you rebreed your does when the litter is 6 weeks old, she will have 2 weeks between litters to rest. If you are not in need of rapid production, though, rebreeding when the litter is weaned would be better. That gives her a whole month of rest, but also only gives you a few litters a year.  A good meat cross is a New Zealand/ Californian cross, or a New Zealand crossed with any other meat breed. Have fun!



First thanks for taking the time to answer my meat rabbit questions 

My actual idea for breeding but was told inbreeding of any kind is bad. But i hear that about cows etc. and those type of animals after 5yrs you swap your male and use a new one even if its from the same heard... I know people concept is also based on the concept of incest and thats why they say no to it.

anyways it was to have 2 bucks and 3 or 4 females to start. With 4 or 5 batches of kits a year, we were going to omit out the colder months just like we do with letting our hens hatch chicks, figured give them that time to keep themselves warm and not have to worry about frozen kits.

Buck A would bred the does
Rest (min of 30days after they have the kits or when the kits are weaned thats a later question)
Buck B would bred with the does

And the breeding cycle would repeat like that till we stop for the year.

My idea when needing to refresh does or bucks was to keep off spring from them causing the breeding to only be half siblings. We would use ear stamping to keep good track of this.

Okay now my question I didn't think of asking.

I was told to wean at 6wks, is this good or is there a better age to wean the kits so that the doe's ability to produce milk for other kits isn't harmed to much?


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

I love your breeding system. It looks like it will work out great!! It is better to wean at 8 weeks. Weaning to early can cause digestive problems in the kits. Don't take the kits away all at once. You want the doe to dry up her milk supply gradually. Take out the biggest ones first.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> I love your breeding system. It looks like it will work out great!! It is better to wean at 8 weeks. Weaning to early can cause digestive problems in the kits. Don't take the kits away all at once. You want the doe to dry up her milk supply gradually. Take out the biggest ones first.



Thanks... 

I figured it would be better to wait a few more weeks then the 6wks that was told to me. I also figured better to take one or two at a time over a period of a few days, once we notice the kits are doing pretty good at eating the pellets etc. on their own. This way the doe doesn't have any separation issues or cause her to loose the drive to care for future kits as good if that is possible at all to cause.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

Don't worry about separation issues or the dam loosing drive to care for future kits. Rabbits by nature are great mothers, and usually will not neglect their kits.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> Don't worry about separation issues or the dam loosing drive to care for future kits. Rabbits by nature are great mothers, and usually will not neglect their kits.



Thats good to know.

I was curious since we were going to use ground hutches, as a extra security from preditors (they will sit in the fenced in foraging run area), and a secure place for the kits when there are some.

Will the doe's claim their own hutch to where if they have kits they wont go into another hut or another doe go into that hutch, while they are out "free ranging"?

A buck would only be out with them if its a breeding session we want to have, just to control breeding so it really isn't a true colony setup like most do.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

Does will pick a spot to kindle, and defend that spot. You may want to have a couple hutches off the ground for kindling and for the very young kits. You dont want a snake or a weasel to get to the defenseless kits. But after a couple weeks, they can go into your ground level hutches.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 11, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> Does will pick a spot to kindle, and defend that spot. You may want to have a couple hutches off the ground for kindling and for the very young kits. You dont want a snake or a weasel to get to the defenseless kits. But after a couple weeks, they can go into your ground level hutches.



That makes sense... it's also why we were going to do the setup like described because the main predator on that property is raccoons, so we are predator proofing all our animals with them in mind. I do know there is a black snake on the property, still looking up how you can predator proof for them, since they are a snake that can climb.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 11, 2016)

If you are not already going to, PUT A ROOF ON YOUR ENCLOSURE. Hawks will eat the rabbits.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 11, 2016)

Oh ya, the main structure will be a kit that is a walk in fence structure that can be used for chickens or rabbits (wed still run small square fencing along the sides so far up cuz of raccoon arms) and it has a metal fence top as part of it... so no worries about hawks or raccoons climbing in.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 11, 2016)

Good.


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## Bossroo (Oct 12, 2016)

Inbreeding is how all breeds come to be.  So long as there is NO lethal or unwanted characteristic one can breed with minimal (if a very recessive gene in both the male and female happen to show up in one or more individuals) to no bad issues. Just cull those. The inbred laboratory animals are bred in this method for hundreds of generations to produce virtual clones. Some of the advise  that is given is fine while other advise is personal predjudices and percentions.


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## animalmom (Oct 12, 2016)

Letting your rabbits have the winter off is very much dependent on where you are geographically.  As I am in Texas, which is rather warm during the late spring through early fall, my breeding time is limited to late fall, winter and early spring.

Bucks go temporarily sterile in high temperatures.  Please keep that in mind.  If your hot temperatures are 85 and above your boys are shooting blanks until the weather cools down AND stays cool.  Rabbits are remarkable well suited for cold weather especially if you keep cold wind off of them.

Another thought that I don't think came up in this discussion is I think I read that you are wanting to leave a buck in a colony full time.  I don't think this is a good idea as the does may not want the buck pestering the does whenever he gets the notion.   I don't have a colony set up so I may be speaking through my hat, but that is what I have read from several sources.  I do know that bucks will try to breed even when the doe is not in the mood.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 12, 2016)

animalmom said:


> Letting your rabbits have the winter off is very much dependent on where you are geographically.  As I am in Texas, which is rather warm during the late spring through early fall, my breeding time is limited to late fall, winter and early spring.
> 
> Bucks go temporarily sterile in high temperatures.  Please keep that in mind.  If your hot temperatures are 85 and above your boys are shooting blanks until the weather cools down AND stays cool.  Rabbits are remarkable well suited for cold weather especially if you keep cold wind off of them.
> 
> Another thought that I don't think came up in this discussion is I think I read that you are wanting to leave a buck in a colony full time.  I don't think this is a good idea as the does may not want the buck pestering the does whenever he gets the notion.   I don't have a colony set up so I may be speaking through my hat, but that is what I have read from several sources.  I do know that bucks will try to breed even when the doe is not in the mood.



Im in ohio, so sometimes our winters are in the - digits thats what I was really worried about if it would increase the chances of kits freezing to death. Summertimes vary here with temps, this past year 90s... I call ohio the pms state when it comes to weather lol

with the setup, no buck 100% of the time. It would be a female colony with controlled breeding (so we can rotate the two bucks in a breeding rotation). The bucks would have their own ground hutches that they are locked up in, until it's time for breeding and we bring the females to them (one at a time). So grass etc for them would be brought to them as they would never be "free ranged" unless we closed up the females in the evening in their hutches to let the bucks stretch their legs (prob one at a time so there isn't any fighting by letting them both out), then put back in their hutches.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 14, 2016)

After reading up and doing a lot of research. I think we may go with hutches, because i found a good deal on a double decker hutch kits. Then during the summertime around the end where our gardens will be put them in their own rabbit runs (treat it like a rabbit tractor) so they can forage a bit during the day, but only when we are outside too.

So for those using hutches. I know most probably use the square wire ones. The double decker kits I found have the den area and then an "exercise area"... the pans have a nice rabbit friendly coating on them (they are like drawers) where you don't have to use the wire bottom that goes on top of it. I was reading where wire bottoms aren't always the best for rabbits (thats all we used for my minilops as a kid). I was thinking of just leaving the wire off and taking the time to litter train the rabbits. 

I was thinking that it may be healthier for them this way any residue that would be left on the wires wouldn't be on their feet and easier to have a preventative for possible diseases that is pass through their poop. You can correct me if my thinking is wrong or isn't any better then doing a wire flooring lol.


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## Bossroo (Oct 14, 2016)

minibackyardfarmer said:


> After reading up and doing a lot of research. I think we may go with hutches, because i found a good deal on a double decker hutch kits. Then during the summertime around the end where our gardens will be put them in their own rabbit runs (treat it like a rabbit tractor) so they can forage a bit during the day, but only when we are outside too.
> 
> So for those using hutches. I know most probably use the square wire ones. The double decker kits I found have the den area and then an "exercise area"... the pans have a nice rabbit friendly coating on them (they are like drawers) where you don't have to use the wire bottom that goes on top of it. I was reading where wire bottoms aren't always the best for rabbits (thats all we used for my minilops as a kid). I was thinking of just leaving the wire off and taking the time to litter train the rabbits.
> 
> I was thinking that it may be healthier for them this way any residue that would be left on the wires wouldn't be on their feet and easier to have a preventative for possible diseases that is pass through their poop. You can correct me if my thinking is wrong or isn't any better then doing a wire flooring lol.


I would reconsider the above with more research that is not by wanna be experts !


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 14, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> I would reconsider the above with more research that is not by wanna be experts !



you don't think that these "experts" don't survey the "wanna be experts" to use that as part of their study lol.... 

thanks for your opinion... but I wasn't seeking expert information just some first hand experience by others and opinions thats it... I can get expert opinions just fine from "expert" resources and depending on which ones you consult they contradict each other lol

Again beyond the point of the post here... Hopefully you go across all the forum posts and make that expert comment cuz many people are looking for opinions of their peers in this forum.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 14, 2016)

Wire does not hurt the rabbit's feet, unless the rabbits have or are prone to sore hocks(wire does not cause the sore hocks- damp flooring does). I have had rabbits for years, all in cages with wire flooring, and no problems yet. Litterbox training would be a waste of your time.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 15, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> Wire does not hurt the rabbit's feet, unless the rabbits have or are prone to sore hocks(wire does not cause the sore hocks- damp flooring does). I have had rabbits for years, all in cages with wire flooring, and no problems yet. Litterbox training would be a waste of your time.



Okay just wasn't sure... again same info gotten from the same person who scolded me when i talked about giving the rabbits corn once a week or so during the wintertime for some extra supplements (whole corn)

Like i said when i was younger my minilops were always wire cages and i never remembered issues. 

Do you do like some others where you put a piece of wood or something on a spot so if they want to get off the wire they can?


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## Bunnylady (Oct 15, 2016)

I like to keep a board or largish floor tile particularly in the cages of my Mini Rex. Rex rabbits often have thinner fur pads on their feet, and a lot of mine have gotten bare spots that can turn into sores if they can't get off the wire. Another problem is an uneven floor - large, heavy rabbits can cause the floor wire to sag, resulting in uneven pressure on the rabbits' feet and even well-padded feet can get sore from that. The rabbits definitely prefer to get off the wire if they can, but then you need to keep an eye on the sitting board, because urine and feces can make it a nasty place for a rabbit to sit.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 15, 2016)

A board for the rabbit to sit on is not neccessary, unless you have Rex or mini Rex rabbits. I have removable nest boxes in my cages during the colder months, and during the summer months I put in cardboard for them to sit on. They don't need it, of course, but they like it. And if they don't sit on it, they will use it as a toy. You will have to change out the cardboard if you use cardboard, though. The rabbits will shred it up and soak it with urine.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 16, 2016)

I was looking at a few options:

This would allow us to house at least 4 of these on the one porch when we move (its the porch that doesn't have the best view in my opinion lol) and its more safe friendly (not that thats too important). By having something that we can keep on the one porch that wont get used will allow the kids to help with the rabbits too (our kids are 10 and under so having them go to far from the house on their own to help our oldest ones get a little too distracted and adventurous lol):

http://www.ruralking.com/the-duplex-auburn.html#

But if we got another 10x10 metal shed kit and put it together we could set it in the perfect spot about 10 feet from the house (trying to keep the rabbits semi close cuz of predators where the chickens etc. would have an electric fence and other things to help) I just wouldn't know how to suspend them or something like that. As I figured we'd do the poop drop on the ground (no pan) and shovel it out once a week (or daily) and use the D.E. stuff like we do in the chicken coop to help with smell and ammonia. Then figured do like a house floor tile (easier to clean then wood) or cardboard for them to get off the wire if wanted and the nest boxes when time for kits or wintertime so they can have extra straw to nest in.

http://www.ruralking.com/30-in-x-36-in-rabbit-cage.html


I like the double hutch (we can get it cheaper on amazon) cuz of the style of it (the nest area has a removable board that you can put on top of the wire if wanted) and it would allow us to keep the rabbits on the porch right outside the mudd/laundry room

I don't see us getting any of the giant meat breads, only cuz i don't know of any breeders around here who don't want an arm and a leg for them lol. So just been trying to look at options that size wise could accommodate californian/new zealand size crosses or other crosses within the same size range.


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## animalmom (Oct 16, 2016)

We use all wire cages for the rabbits.  It is difficult to get unsealed wood clean.  Wire is much easier to keep clean.

For ideas on stacking wire cages you could look at Bass Equipment's website.  They have kits -- http://www.bassequipment.com/foundations/store/scresults.asp?category=2278*Stack_A_Hutch_Kits

I strongly recommend going with cages that are 18" tall so that the rabbit has room to stretch.

I would think other cage companies have similar kits.  Just an idea.  You could still put the rabbits on your porch...


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 16, 2016)

animalmom said:


> We use all wire cages for the rabbits.  It is difficult to get unsealed wood clean.  Wire is much easier to keep clean.
> 
> For ideas on stacking wire cages you could look at Bass Equipment's website.  They have kits -- http://www.bassequipment.com/foundations/store/scresults.asp?category=2278*Stack_A_Hutch_Kits
> 
> ...



Whats the minimum for the non giant breed meat rabbits when it comes to the minimum width and length of all wire cages?

There are complete kits for like $50 of 24x24x18 that comes with the kits for stacking the cages already with them. I think there is a 30x30 (don't know the height) kits also that come with the stacking frames already like the link. I know we can get those separate too and get the longer cages and I can double check on the height (i thought the longer ones would be great for grow out cages if not the best option for our breeding rabbits). The complete kits though are great cuz they came with the frame kit, pan, and some come with water bottles etc (that latter isn't a big deal). The longer cages, plus the frame kits and pans brings us up to right around $150 for everything just for one cage setup.

I thought about this too on the porch like this, but the only thing I didn't know was for blocking from excessive wind, any rain, and during the wintertime. I could make the hubby make a cubby like thing that they sit under just big enough to cover the cages with a little extra in the front so we can hang tarp there to block them at night and wintertime or strong rains, a 3 side type of thing.


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## animalmom (Oct 16, 2016)

In my opinion, 30 x 36 is good for California or New Zealand.  You can go larger but something to keep in mind is how long is your arm?  I think ideally you should be able to reach anywhere in the cage.  

In winter it isn't the cold so much that bothers the rabbits it is the wind.  If you can block the wind your rabbits should be fine.  Keep in mind you really, really don't want to drape a tarp over the cages because the rabbits will gnaw on the tarp (ask me how I know), just hang the tarp out of rabbit reach.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 16, 2016)

Good choice in not choosing a giant breed. They are unthrifty eaters, and do not convert feed to meat well. Their bones are a considerable chunk of their weight, giving you a false assumption that they are a good meat breed. The best breeds are Californians and New Zealands. A 30"x30" cage wouldn't be big enough for a New Zealand, though. The smallest the cage should be for a NZ is 40"x40". You don't need to shovel up the manure from under the hutches that often. Depending on how many rabbits you have, anywhere from 2 weeks to a month is fine, unless, of course, you want to clean it out more.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 16, 2016)

You could try building your own cages. It is very easy. Look up "building wire rabbit hutches", and you should find plenty of ideas.


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## Bossroo (Oct 16, 2016)

Some food for thought-  placing cages near the house or any structure wall and the male rabbits will decorate the walls with urine that soaks into the wall boards / siding. Not so nice smell or sight that is hard to remove.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 16, 2016)

Nobody makes 40" wire, let alone a cage with 40" dimensions. The largest pans I've ever seen offered for stacking cages are 30" x 36", which works fine for a large breed doe with a litter.

As animalmom said, it isn't just the rabbit you have to think about - the cage has to work for you, too. A cage that has parts of it that are so far from the door that you practically have to climb in to get the rabbit isn't a good idea, nor will cleaning it be easy. 30" front to back is about as far as is reasonable for most adults, if kids are going to be doing most of the work, going shorter and wider might be a better option.

Bossroo brings up a good point - and it isn't just buck urine that you have to worry about. Bucks spray and splatter everywhere, but does often hike their butts as high as they can in a corner to pee, which can anoint things as much as a foot away from the cage.  If you build a metal shed to house your rabbits in, ventilation becomes an issue. Rabbits drink and pee a lot (particularly lactating does) so moisture and ammonia are much greater issues than they are with chickens. In a confined space, that can mean that you need to clean at least a couple of times per week. Of course, the pans make it easy, as long as you don't go too long between cleanings and let them get too heavy.


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## Bossroo (Oct 16, 2016)

Bunnylady has a good point regarding the ventilation issue in a metal building. Another point is " indoor rain"  when you have a metal roof ( even just a roof without any walls as seen in a "mare motel" )  and when moisture condensation occurs ( from moisture in the air or from moisture from animals' breathing, urinating ) on the underside of the metal roof then when the drops get too large it starts to fall as if it was rain.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 16, 2016)

I'm only 5'3" so aside from water and food help (thats all the kids would help with) the rest would be up to me and the hubby. We had 24x24 pens for the minilops as kids (and into the middle of highschool i stopped growing at like 8th grade lol) and I didn't have trouble. I don't know if an extra 6 inches would make a difference or not.

everyone gave some great food for thought for us to think up some options.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 16, 2016)

A 40"x40" cage may be hard to find, but it is neccessary for at least the breeding does. Perhaps bucks and does without litters could live in a 30"x30" hutch(though it would be pretty cramped), does with litters cannot. You can attach to peices of wire together with j or c clips, or use a wooden frame, if the wire sheet isn't big enough.


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