# Help!  My does got into the grain!  Bloat???



## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

Two of my Saanen does got into the grain. They had already had their ration and upon their escape helped themselves to a lot more.  Tundra doesn't look too bad, but Betsie is part pig and I'm sure consumed way too much.  I immediately offered baking soda to both of them Tundra licked some and soon after burped. Betsie licked a little, but wasn't much interested. I have a call into the vet as to a course of action. But what else should I be doing. Both girls had their CD&T shots this spring will that be enough?  Help!


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## Snowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

Keep em moving, see if you can gently massage the area over the rumen, and keep offering baking soda. 

Hopefully they let out lots of burps!

And I hope someone else comes along to offer some advice too, I'm still fairly new at this.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

Snowhunter said:
			
		

> Keep em moving, see if you can gently massage the area over the rumen, and keep offering baking soda.
> 
> Hopefully they let out lots of burps!
> 
> And I hope someone else comes along to offer some advice too, I'm still fairly new at this.


New or not - GREAT advice.

You want them passing the gas from one end or the other.


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## redtailgal (Aug 19, 2011)

z


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

As long as they aren't acting distressed and are passing gas I wouldn't overly worry.  Just keep them moving...give firm massages to their left side and keep offering the baking soda.  Keep us posted on how they're doing.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

Ok, vet called back and said give them a baking soda slurry, about a pint each. If they don't show improvement, he wants me to give them a half a gallon of mineral oil.  I already gave Betsie about 1/3 cup of baking soda mixed with maple syrup and a little water. I rubbed her belly and she has been burping. Tundra is burping a lot.  I gave her a little bit of the slurry too and am headed out there to give them a lot more.  I will walk them around too.  Thanks. I keep you updated.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

willow_top_farm said:
			
		

> Ok, vet called back and said give them a baking soda slurry, about a pint each. If they don't show improvement, he wants me to give them a half a gallon of mineral oil.  I already gave Betsie about 1/3 cup of baking soda mixed with maple syrup and a little water. I rubbed her belly and she has been burping. Tundra is burping a lot.  I gave her a little bit of the slurry too and am headed out there to give them a lot more.  I will walk them around too.  Thanks. I keep you updated.


Sounds like you've got a good plan.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 19, 2011)

I would offer some baking soda, but IMO until they actually have issues (and are bloatd) keeping them moving won't really do anything now except for wear them out.  Keep them off grain for today and possibly tomorrow.  You never know, they may be just fine and giving baking soda now will do the trick.  Just keep an eye on them, offer stemmy grass hay (if you have it) and be ready to give more baking soda if needed.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 19, 2011)

Did either of them actually have any issues? My girls got into the grain last night and ate quite a bit. Not one of them showed any bad signs. I gave them nothing. They were also fine this morning. Not even loose stool. If you see issues, then you need to do something.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

Well, I'm covered in maple syrup and baking soda!  It's not very easy to get that slurry into them. I've given them each probably a cup's worth...but they're getting stressed out (me too) and I'm giving them a break. We did walk them for a couple of big laps.  They continue to burp and fart, (but the vet said that the gas build up will continue to be a problem as the grain breaks down).  They were interested in eating the browse as we walked around, but aren't interested in their hay.  Their poops are clumpy.  Betsie definitely looks uncomfortable, but maybe because I force fed her all the baking soda?    Their bellies are distended, but not rock solid.  I'll go out and give them more of the baking soda.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 19, 2011)

several ounces of Mineral oil can also really help, but what you are doing will help a lot.  If they start with runny poop, don't treat it, they need to get it out of their system, Atleast for the first 24 hours. If they continue with runny poop for more than that and start to look really rough then you may have other issues starting to develop from the stress of them over eating. 

I would also have a thermometer on hand after the first day, if runny poop continues. High temps can be an indication of bacterial infection starting or over eating disease starting, which is actually a bacterial infection and should have been covered by vaccinating them with CD&T

If low temps it can be a sign of parasite load over taking them or dehydration.

Overall I would say they will be uncomfortable for a couple days and then back to their normal self, but I felt you might want to know what to look out for. 


Getting a cup of any kind of drench in them isn't easy.  do you have a 30cc drenching syringe, It really helps and aren't that expensive.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

I have a 20cc drench syringe.  But it jams up with all the baking soda, and then I squirt it down their throat and, of course, they hate it and shake their heads spewing the stuff all over!  I've got almost all of it in them (2 pints), and have been giving it to them slowly over a 3 hour period so far, but am not sure if I should continue, for how long?, or should I switch to the mineral oil now?  The vet says 1/2 gallon for each goat...that seems like an awful lot!?  Or should I just start with say 4-5 oz each and keep watching them?  Or do you think he meant to give them all that oil over a long period of time?

Their status is: both girls look uncomfortable, Betsie more than Tundra. The are laying down, kind of panting.  Tundra has pooped a half dozen times, clumpy. Betsie has pooped regular berries a few times.  They're bellies are big/swollen, but they do have some give to them when I massage them.  Not eating anything, drinking a little.  I doubt I'll get Tundra on the milk stand to milk her tomorrow...she's relating the stand to the baking soda slurry.  UGH!


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

Also, thanks for the heads up on what to watch for in the coming days.  I really appreciate that.


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## jodief100 (Aug 19, 2011)

willow_top_farm said:
			
		

> I have a 20cc drench syringe.  But it jams up with all the baking soda, and then I squirt it down their throat and, of course, they hate it and shake their heads spewing the stuff all over!


Make the slurry more water and less baking soda so it will go through the syringe easier.  Then get that syringe waaaaaaay down thier throats.  Mine has chew marks on the cylinder.  If yours doesn't it isn't far enough.  

I would just watch them for now and rub their bellies for now.  Two pints of baking soda slurry is a LOT.  I wouldn't give them that much mineral oil either.  A few ounces at most. Keep it up, keep an eye on them.  They are doing fine.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 19, 2011)

I would be worried about that much baking soda. I only use a couple tablespoons at a time. I would 

Give them a couple hours to rest, or walk them around if they are badly bloated, and then switch to mineral oil ..


And that is a lot of mineral oil. He is nuts thinking you can hand drench them with that much, Normally that much would be tubed. I would say if you can get 6 to 8 ounces in them in the next hour or so and then again tonight.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 19, 2011)

I should clarify: I add a couple tablespoons of dry baking soda to an ounce of corn syrup and an ounce of water and drench with that every couple hours until I see the goat is feeling better.  Along with 6 to 8 ounces of mineral oil. 

Can use corn oil, but since the system digests corn oil, mineral oil work better as a lubricant in their stomach. 


May I ask how much baking soda you used to make 2 pints of a slurry??


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

I didn't measure exactly the baking soda. The vet said to make it as thick as I could and still be able to pull it up in a syringe.  I only got a cup or so in each of them.  I was thinking 1/2 gallon was extreme too. My husband insisted (he took the call) that the vet said it was that much and that he (vet) was quite alarmed at the situation. I then called my breeder that I got the goats from. She's dealt with this a number of times and said that a quart of oil would do. So, I went with the quart.  It's pretty confusing as to who to listen to, so many opinions. :/  The quart seemed like the "medium" approach, so that's what i went with. They took the oil better than the soda.  Poor girls.  I sure hope this fixes it.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 19, 2011)

I am sure a half a gallon would be okay to give them, as far as  not hurting their health any, but just seems like way more than I have heard any one giving. We just talked to someone who had a (130lb)show lamb get out in the feed and gained 10 lbs from being out one evening and was  going to be too heavy for weigh-in for the market show. He said they gave the lamb 2 pints of mineral oil and the lamb came down off all the weight by the next day, just in time for weigh in.


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## Goatmasta (Aug 19, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Did either of them actually have any issues? My girls got into the grain last night and ate quite a bit. Not one of them showed any bad signs. I gave them nothing. They were also fine this morning. Not even loose stool. If you see issues, then you need to do something.


I was wondering the same thing.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

Yes, they were definitely having issues. And I just lost them both. In the last couple of hours their systems began shutting down, they were crying and they were having trouble breathing. We had the vet come and put them down to spare them further suffering.  I'm heartbroke.  They were my first and only does of my small herd of five.  The other three are their kids.  It'll be strange not to go out to milk Tundra in the morning and feel her warm belly at my shoulder.  Thanks for all the advice. I wish we could've saved her. Bloat sucks.


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## freemotion (Aug 19, 2011)

You did everything you could.....


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## Snowhunter (Aug 19, 2011)

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear this hun


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 19, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> You did everything you could.....


I could've made sure the gate was locked. But I screwed up and didn't. Tundra was a smart goat and figured out how to flip the gate latch open. Because of this we had to add a clip to make sure she couldn't. I can't explain why, but I forgot the clip today. And now my does are dead.  It couldn't have been more than an hour before I realized that they were out and immediately called the vet, etc.  But it wasn't enough.  Thanks for the condolences. I'm sure I'll work through this. But it sucks really bad right now.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

Try not to beat yourself up.  It's hard but goats are wiley and will find a way to get around what safety measures you put into place if they really want something.  I am so sorry that you lost your two does.


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## freemotion (Aug 19, 2011)

I had five escapes in a week recently, 3 different goats and 4 different escape routes.  We have a fortress here and haven't had escapes in many months....not since the buck conspired with the older doe one Saturday night and he ripped the electric down and climbed over.  I built an eight foot fence.  He was out three time of the five escapes, two different ways out.  

What I'm saying is...goats get out.  I'm so sorry that yours also got IN to the grain, but they are determined and smart and agile.  I certainly don't read this story and think you were negligent.  If I did, I wouldn't respond as I am right now.  Here's another


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## maggies.family (Aug 19, 2011)

I am so sorry! 

Try not to beat yourself up.  I know, easier said than done.  Mistakes happen, and that's what this was, a mistake.  I have done things like this to and it feels terrible when the end result is bad.  Hang in there.  Be kind and gentle to yourself


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## kstaven (Aug 20, 2011)

It may not help right now. But many of us have had similar experiences along the way.

Along the way you will find for every measure you take to keep goats secure they will develop a counter.


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## lindseymadora (Aug 20, 2011)

So sorry to hear this.  Try not to blame yourself - you fought vigilantly to save them.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 20, 2011)

I am so sorry,  Yes, many of us have goats get out,  I have one doe that was getting into the feed room so often I gave up and just let her in it  free-choice. she needed to put weight on anyway, We had several get out twice this summer and both time ate an almost full 50 lb bag of rabbit feed, now there was like 12 of them, but that is still a lot of feed to go through.   I honestly have never had any problems with ours getting bloat from getting in the fed, have never even bothered treating one. I was sure you were over reacting, but I wanted to support your efforts of treating the girls.  I think the thing I would have said to do differently had I realized how bad a shape they were in, was have the vet come out right a way and tube them all the mineral and baking soda, so it could have gotten into their system with less stress and faster.  I am very very sorry for your lose.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry.


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## Goatherd (Aug 20, 2011)

My condolences.  Sorry for your loss.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone.  I'm still so close to tears this morning, but I'll get by. My husband and neighbor is out burying them as I type this. The boys (their kids) are doing fine. I thought they'd be bawling for their ma's, but they aren't. Perhaps they know.  All this time I was worried about coyotees and stray dogs getting them, who knew it would be grain that did them in.  Crazy.


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 20, 2011)

So sorry for your loss


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Aug 20, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss.  Something to look into is a trocar and cannula.  In desperate times it is a kill or cure answer but it can mean the difference between losing the animal vs keeping it on antibiotics for a while and lots of tlc.  Often lots of answers come out after the fact so please don't take this as a "You should have".  It is totally not. Just a "for future reference" and mainly for anybody looking at this thread that is needing answers on bloat.  In extreme cases a pen knife and a large syringe body will suffice.   It is not a procedure to be taken lightly though and is of last resort when the animal is down with bloat.  I am actually surprised the vet didn't try it.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 25, 2011)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> I am so sorry for your loss.  Something to look into is a trocar and cannula.  In desperate times it is a kill or cure answer but it can mean the difference between losing the animal vs keeping it on antibiotics for a while and lots of tlc.  Often lots of answers come out after the fact so please don't take this as a "You should have".  It is totally not. Just a "for future reference" and mainly for anybody looking at this thread that is needing answers on bloat.  In extreme cases a pen knife and a large syringe body will suffice.   It is not a procedure to be taken lightly though and is of last resort when the animal is down with bloat.  I am actually surprised the vet didn't try it.


The vet told me that the amount of grain in the gut caused a build up of acid (or something...acidosis?) that gets absorbed through the stomach lining and eventually starts to shut down the organs. So he said, at the point that that is happening, there is nothing else that can be done to  stop the process. My breeder said something about poking a hole into their bellies too, so I asked the vet several times if there was anything, even "last ditch-effort" things we could do and he kept answering no.

What is tocar and cannula?


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## kstaven (Aug 25, 2011)

I have to disagree with this. Yes there is definately acidosis. But normally it is the digestive system ballooning with gas putting pressure on the heart, lungs and other organs than kills them.


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## willow_top_farm (Aug 25, 2011)

oh man...this is opening up another can of worms for me to mull over!  If he'd had popped a hole in their bellies, could this have saved them??!!


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## kstaven (Aug 25, 2011)

willow_top_farm said:
			
		

> oh man...this is opening up another can of worms for me to mull over!  If he'd had popped a hole in their bellies, could this have saved them??!!


Maybe ... in the short term. But in the long term it is a huge risk because of secondary infections, because you are puncturing the intestine. It really is a last ditch measure.

We have tube fed olive oil, mollasses, and baking soda with good success. Even when a goat is to the point of being down, labored breathing, and elevated heart rate. I know some will not agree with this method, but it has worked for us in an emergency.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Aug 26, 2011)

http://www.scruggsfarm.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=8703&gclid=CNKk86bv7KoCFQ865Qodn2bZMQ 


This is what I was referring to. It is basically a sharp thing to poke a hole in their stomach with to let out the air.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 26, 2011)

Acidosis is exactly why baking soda is a standard component of the treatment for bloat- baking soda is a base and is meant to bring the pH of the rumen back into balance.


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## Chicks&Feathers (Aug 26, 2011)

I just read this. I am SO sorry for your loss! Don't beat yourself up though. You're human and all of us humans make mistakes! Hugs to you!!


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Aug 26, 2011)

And understand that puncturing as a cure should be done as a last ditch effort.  If you are looking at putting them down anyway or the goat is on the way out... Then try it.  But carefully after having read the instructions and understanding that you still may lose them.


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## kstaven (Aug 26, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Acidosis is exactly why baking soda is a standard component of the treatment for bloat- baking soda is a base and is meant to bring the pH of the rumen back into balance.


I agree. But from the discussion it appears the vet was inferring that it is direct organ damage from an overly acidic system that kills them. That is not correct.


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