# Between a rock and a hard place



## AClark (Dec 16, 2016)

I've been mulling over an issue with our German Shepherd for a month or so now and some outside opinions would be welcome.
She's 4 now, she has some mental issues (she's literally neurotic). We have suspected she has EPI for awhile now, which means basically no matter how much I feed her, she is wasting away. The testing is expensive, so no it hasn't been performed, though it isn't unlikely considering how much I feed her and the fact that she keeps getting leaner and leaner. She's up to 9 cups of kibble a day plus leftovers and she's 45ish lbs. She does not have parasites, and should be easily in the 70+ lb range.

Now, with what I know about EPI, is it is a lifelong condition. It is manageable but not curable. The management for it is no part of cheap. Basically, it's a lack of producing an enzyme that digests food, so regardless of how much you feed them, they don't benefit nutritionally from what they eat. That and because they don't benefit from what they eat, they are constantly ravenously hungry. They have a diet that's special to combat it to include enzymes but it takes awhile to get it right while the dog wastes away. 

The weird behavior could be related to EPI, or it could be separate. By weird behavior I mean she can be outside all day and I let her in and she'll get on one of the kids beds and pee and poop all over it, barks incessantly, destroys everything and can't be trusted loose in the house whatsoever, even when everyone is home. She can't be left outdoors because she jumps the fence and runs off. 

At what point do y'all say "it's too much" to afford and deal with? I'm probably looking at $150-200 for the testing and then several hundred dollars to manage it every couple of months. I honestly don't have that kind of money to spend on a dog with that kind of temperament. Her behavior is so bad I don't think I can give her away either without her ending up at the shelter anyway.

Any thoughts?


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## Latestarter (Dec 16, 2016)

May sound harsh or unfeeling but I'd put her down. My Mystie was old, with tumors, rotting teeth, digestive issues, and getting around was becoming very difficult for her.   Nothing like being destructive or what your girl is doing/going through, but the move would have put her under tremendous stress, and I didn't want to do that to her. I put her down before I moved for that reason. Even had I moved her, she wouldn't have had much time left.   Really tough place to be in. Hope whatever you decide is for the best.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 16, 2016)

Hey there's a new member who knows a lot about EPI but  I don't remember  her usernam.  Search for it or @Latestarter can tag her,  she breeds Spanish Mastiffs.

But I'm afraid I agree it is likely  time, with the medical and behavioral issues.  But if the medical was taken care of would the behavioral change? I don't know


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## Bruce (Dec 16, 2016)

Is it @BrendaMNgri ??


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## NH homesteader (Dec 16, 2016)

Yes thank you! My phone doesn't work well enough for me to go search through old posts.  Sorry I forgot your name @BrendaMNgri! I know you know a lot about EPI though!


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## Hens and Roos (Dec 16, 2016)

sorry to hear about your challenges with her


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## lcertuche (Dec 16, 2016)

So sad, but I think if she is acting like that then she really can't be enjoying her life and it's better not to suffer. If you can't bring yourself to put her down then ask a friend or take her to the vet. Such a shame. Our large borador disappeared off our porch one day and we haven't seen her since. It is heartbreaking to lose such a close family member (which she definitely was) but better not to suffer or hurt herself or someone else.


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## TAH (Dec 16, 2016)

What are you feeding her?


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## promiseacres (Dec 16, 2016)

I agree with @Latestarter there's a point even if they are young that it's time


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## AClark (Dec 17, 2016)

I've tried a lot of different foods, from grain-free expensive ones to cheap ones. It doesn't seem to matter, everything that goes in (after a long well adjusted period) still comes out the other end as liquid death. The smell is incredibly bad, not like dog poop but almost like puppies with parvo get - rotten death smell. She's eating Purina right now and literally 8-9 cups a day, plus wet food/safe leftovers and hasn't gained any weight. After her being out this morning for 3 hours I had to bring her in to go run errands and she had liquid poop all over my laundry room - I was gone for 2 hours. I hate having to keep her in there, but it's about the only place where there's nothing she can destroy and is easy to clean up, since this happens frequently.

The behavioral issues are stressful, from what I've read EPI can be a cause for behavioral issues, but I have my doubts if it's the sole cause. The vet mentioned her poor temperament last time we were there, she's extremely skittish and has to be muzzled at the vet. She's always been unreliable in the house for any amount of time, but the destructive behavior has really ramped up over the last few months. She eats everything - garbage, shoes, plastic - not just tears it up but actually eats it. She's crate trained but all that means is she has liquid poop in the crate and is caked in it when I get home, so not only do I end up cleaning that, but washing the dog too.

I'm just lost. Our Aussie cattle dog isn't even a year old and doesn't chew things up or potty in the house, ever. I've been contemplating putting the GSD down more recently, especially with the sudden weight loss and not being able to keep a pound on her (she's spayed, she should be absolutely obese with how much she's being fed). The erratic behavior is a concern too. I told her "no" the other day, didn't yell at her, but I didn't want her running into my kids room where she could do gross things, and she stood there and peed a giant puddle on the livingroom floor, then promptly freaked out, tried to run on the tile, slipped in the pee and fell in it.

Late, I sympathize with your old girl. When I was moving to NY from AZ I had a 16 year old basset hound. Sweetest dog ever, but she was very sick with a large tumor and I knew the major weather change was going to affect her arthritis, as she was already struggling to get around. It's always a hard decision, but easier I guess because she was already so old and I knew nothing we could do could make it better for her.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 17, 2016)

Have you asked your vet for an unofficial guess on whether it could be EPI or something else? If there is nothing in your power you can do to fix this...  I would put her down.  There is no way she is enjoying life at this point.


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## TAH (Dec 18, 2016)

http://www.allshepherdrescue.com/info/display?PageID=9888
http://www.allivet.com/p-5340-bio-c...KIOLi4UgeXBmalB5GF0q-2AWYHw5fZNA01RoCaRXw_wcB


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## Baymule (Dec 18, 2016)

I have not had a dog with EPI. What I have read about it does not sound good. I am by no means an expert on this disease, but I don't think I could put up with what you are going through right now for very long. Running in the house to pee and poop a liquid goo with the smell of death all over my kids beds would be a deal killer for me. Once, ok, clean it up and go from there. More than that is a pattern of extremely bad behavior and I would not, could not, put up with that.

The EPI is a lifelong commitment with a price tag on it that you have said you cannot afford. If this was a beloved member of the family, with a history of being the perfect dog, I might could see it. But this is a demon dog with all sorts of behavioral issues. Are they linked to EPI or just really bad breeding? From what I can see from the sidelines, pure bred dogs in America are being inbred to the point of destruction. I'm not saying all purebreds are, but the gene pool is only so big and problems occur in almost every breed. Only an ignorant and irresponsible breeder would knowingly produce dogs with these issues.

Did you get her from a breeder? Do they know their dog has these issues? Is yours the only one and a complete surprise or are there others like yours out there, causing pain, misery and financial loss to their owners? A polite phone call would be step 1 in dealing with this, but I would not let it escalate to an online war, that is destructive to both parties and you are not that sort of person. However, if the breeder is not responsive and there is a way to warn other prospective purchasers of what a can of worms they are buying, I am in favor of that. But then you run the risk of litigation, so in the end, is it worth it?

Ok, off my soapbox and back to you and your dog. I don't know your dog, haven't seen her, haven't dealt with her problems and am not faced with what to do about her in an up close manner. This is hard for you, I can tell. We do hate to give up on an animal that we have taken into our family don't we? But sometimes the animal is so disruptive in our family, that we have to get rid of them. Is the animal so disruptive that no one else wants it? I think the answer here would be no. It takes a lot of courage to step up and do what you have to do, rather than foist off a problem animal on someone else because one is so "tenderhearted" or "loves little Foo-Foo too much to put her down" or the other myriad of reasons that people dump animals.

I believe the answer here is clear. Your dog is sick. A lifetime sickness that will cost you money over the years that could be put in other places that would benefit your family. And you have said that you can't afford it, the cold hard facts of life surface to slap us around and make the decision hurt more don't they? Your dog has some horrible behaviors that even a Saint would grow weary of. At 4 years old, most dogs have grown out of puppy chewing destructive behavior and have been corrected and learned not to do that anymore. You say that she continues to get worse. How much more of this can you put up with? Only you know the answer.

No one loves their animals more than my husband and myself. We care for them, love them and enjoy them. It is hard to make the decision to put one down. We recently had to make that decision with tears running down both our faces and it was a terrible thing to have to do. Many others here on BYH have had to do the same thing. So no matter what your decision is, we are here for you with love and support.


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## CntryBoy777 (Dec 18, 2016)

I will 2nd that 'Motion'....I have not faced such a situation, but some similar and have 'Dispatched' at least 4 of my own animals for different reasons, but it was the best decision I could make for all concerned....very difficult to decide and do, but it is what being a Responsible animal owner is suppose to be about....just think if it stops being items that are destroyed and starts to be you, your children, or a neighbor....I know I would never give an animal to someone else that had that kind of behavior, no matter 'What' they may say....it only brings 'Peace of Mind' when there has been an end to it, no matter how 'Tough' it might be...it would be a 'Nightmare' to attempt to Move with such an animal....dispatching is cheap, easy, and quiet....very Tough tho....wish ya the Best!!


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## Bossroo (Dec 18, 2016)

Quote by Baymule "Are they linked to EPI or just really bad breeding? From what I can see from the sidelines, pure bred dogs in America are being inbred to the point of destruction. I'm not saying all purebreds are, but the gene pool is only so big and problems occur in almost every breed. Only an ignorant and irresponsible breeder would knowingly produce dogs with these issues".
The above statement is not exactly so.   True, there are some purebred breeders that don't have ethics and will breed on issues.  But the vast majority of purebred breeders are very responsible in what they produce.  Their reputation in the breed as well as the dog registry is at stake afterall.  The breeders have their breeding stock tested for genetic problems and if they show that they have affected genes, they are spayed or neutered  and either sold or given away as pets only with full disclosure of their genetic issue.  Those dogs that are sold as potential breeding stock have very specific contracts as to genetic testing and if they are found to be carriers of a defect, the only time that they can be bred is to a NON carrier.  I would be MUCH MORE CONSERNED  with the mutt dogs out there as they more often then not are NOT tested .  The
producers of the so called " designer dogs"  are in it for the money with no regard as to what genetic faults that they may have.  Crossing purebred dog breeds does NOT guarantee a healthier animal but the opposite may be true as the offspring could carry faulty genes from each breed. The mutt dogs bred by puppy mills are breeding them with NO testing so what undesirable genes for health issues do they actually have  that the buyer is stuck in paying huge Vet. bills for.  The rescues charge adoption fees for these types of dogs as well as street dogs that they import from other countries too.  What genetic and/ or diseases do they bring in to the buyer to eventually deal with and pay the resulting costs ?


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## AClark (Dec 19, 2016)

She is from a good breeder, my mom has her full sister and she's a nice healthy weight and doesn't tear up anything. It is still debateable whether EPI is strictly inherited, so I don't blame the breeder. Dogs that may pass it on may not show signs at reasonable reproductive ages.
http://www.ufaw.org.uk/dogs/german-shepherd-exocrine-pancreatic-insufficiency

That link has some info on it with citations. Median age of diagnosis being around 36 months, and she barely turned 4 a couple of weeks ago.

Basically, the only thing that has saved her so far is that she is mellow with the kids. I think I am probably going to put her down, I noticed over the weekend she's showing weakness in the back end and was wobbling around - probably not likely due to hip dysplasia since neither of her parents have HD, though it's possible since even 2 dogs with good hips can produce a dog with HD.

http://www.enzymediane.com/coststomanageepi.htm

This link breaks down the cost of maintenance for a dog with EPI.

It might be something else, as I'm no vet, but I can't imagine how a dog that eats that much that isn't parasite ridden can keep losing weight.

I asked here because I knew it wasn't going to be judgy like a lot of dog forums. Some of those people are completely nuts and will flame you for not wanting to spend hundreds of dollars on a sick animal. I don't have that mentality, as sick farm animals end up put down.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 19, 2016)

It's a hard decision either way.  It does look like the decision you're leaning toward may be the best for all concerned.


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## TAH (Dec 19, 2016)




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## farmerjan (Dec 19, 2016)

Put her down, cry your tears, be thankful that the dog your mom has is normal. Then talk to the breeder and let them know that you in no way blame them, but this is what has happened, that you have worked with your vet on all possible REASONABLE solutions and this is what you finally decided.  Maybe they will work with you to maybe replace her, maybe you just need to stick with some LGD's for now, or see if there is a dog at the pound that came from a family that had to move or someone died and no one in the family could take the dog or maybe your vet knows of a situation where there is a dog that is in desperate need of a home.  Maybe better to not get a shepard so that you will not be reminded.  
You have to be practical, and also sounds like the dog mostly cannot help herself and she can't be happy like that.  Sorry, but we are their caretakers, and have to make decisions that are best for everyone.  Even if you went the expensive care route, you will start to resent her and the costs and the care and what if she doesn't get any better????  

I think you have already gone above and beyond.  Sorry for you and sorry for her,  give her some peace and stop the guilt on your part.


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## norseofcourse (Dec 20, 2016)

I've never heard of EPI, sounds like a terrible thing to deal with, and rough on the dog as well.  Only you can look at her quality of life, and the cost (not only financial but time and emotional as well), and make the decision that is right for you, your family, and her.


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