# Need Advice...(see post #34-pg4 for the latest)



## elevan (Aug 14, 2011)

I called to inquire about some "pygmy" goats in the paper today...
Just got home from checking them out.  The guy has 3 bucklings, 1 2yr old doe (just bred this wk), 1 4yr old doe with a 24 hour doeling kid.
I'm not interested in the bucklings...told him that straight out.
He wants $100 each for the does (kid on the one doe goes with her for the price).

Here's my dilemma:
They aren't pygmy...though that's not a problem for me.  The one is obviously a cross while the other is heavy nigerian influence (and bred this week to a definite pygmy).
They feed them DOGFOOD!
Guy has no real knowledge of goats really....so I can't be sure of history or health.
I couldn't see the 24 hour kid because the "doe hid her somewhere" and the guy can't find her.
There are 5 bucks / bucklings in the pen too but he insisted that the one is "definitely" bred to the adult buck.
I couldn't get my hands on them to touch them and check them over because he has donkeys in with them and the jack was not gonna allow a stranger in their field.

They would basically be $100 rescues imo...I'm so torn.  The guy thinks he has a "money making" herd.  He's got a couple 2 wk old doelings that I was able to check over physically and I told him I may be interested but he says he doesn't know how much he'll want for them and they won't be "ready" for several more weeks....then starts telling me about this Mt. Hope exotic animal auction that the "pygmy" goats go for over $300 there and they aren't registered and he could take his kids there for big bucks...Should I rescue the 2 for $100 each?  Should I just walk away?  I hate the thought of knowing those goats are eating dogfood and running with 5 bucks and a donkey jack that bites and kicks at them.  What would you do??


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## Goatherd (Aug 14, 2011)

I don't think anyone can make a decision for you, but if it was me, they would be here now.  Refer to my signature.

As far as Mt. Hope goes...let's just say I haven't anything good to say about the place so I'll leave it at that.


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## redtailgal (Aug 14, 2011)

z


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## ksj0225 (Aug 14, 2011)

What you buy will just be replaced, you won't be solving the problem...


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 14, 2011)

I wouldn't buy them, but you have to live with your choices. I agree, that they will just be replaced with somethign else, and paying him $100 for something that isn't worth that is only encouraging him.


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## elevan (Aug 14, 2011)

Thank you all.

You're right...this guy will just keep selling them and feeding them dogfood if people buy them...I tried to talk him down but that didn't work, it's a crazy price for unregistered stock especially in those circumstances.

I won't be buying them...I guess I just needed someone to reinforce why I shouldn't do it.


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## Roll farms (Aug 14, 2011)

Late to the game but I agree w/ your decision.  

Unfortunately, as hard as it is to accept....we CANNOT save them all.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Aug 14, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Late to the game but I agree w/ your decision.
> 
> Unfortunately, as hard as it is to accept....we CANNOT save them all.


yep. sorry.
:-(


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## savingdogs (Aug 14, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I am a sucker, but I refuse to pay for a rescue.
> 
> Do you think that by paying his prices, you would be encouraging him to continue?  Will he think "see, I DO have a money making herd", and expand it even further?
> 
> ...


If he GAVE them to you it would be one thing, but as soon as you pay him he sees himself as having a money making herd and reinforcing his behavior. It is sad for the goats though.


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## freemotion (Aug 14, 2011)

I can't imagine that ANY store sells dog food for less per pound than even the cheapest goat food!  Does he know this????  At least tell him this as a parting gift to those poor animals.  How can you NOT FIND a new baby?  Holy Carp.


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## savingdogs (Aug 14, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I can't imagine that ANY store sells dog food for less per pound than even the cheapest goat food!  Does he know this????  At least tell him this as a parting gift to those poor animals.  How can you NOT FIND a new baby?  Holy Carp.


Excellent point Free! Here Goat chow is about 1/2 the price of dog food.


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## elevan (Aug 14, 2011)

savingdogs said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
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They were feeding all the animals dog food...goats, sheep, donkeys and of course dogs  

I suspect that the missing kid is probably dead    He kept saying that the "billies" kept trying to attack it and he thought that's why the "nanny" hid it....it's been raining all day today and cool for an August day.  I really think it's probably dead.


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## arabianequine (Aug 14, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> savingdogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would report him to animal control myself. You can do this anonymously. That is the only way to stop him if at all and help the goats. Then tell animal control. You may have room to take some in goats in, if it came to that. 

I do agree with you your choice, I know it is hard but we can't save them all  and he will just keep doing it.


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## drdoolittle (Aug 15, 2011)

How sad.   I was also thinking the baby is probably dead.  What an idiot.  I agree with calling animal control and the decision not to buy the goats-----I probably wouldn't have been as strong as you and would have bought them on the spot.  Hope I'm never in that situation.


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## countrykids (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm not sure I'd be so quick to call animal control.  True, dog food isn't for goats, but are they starving?  I don't know.  I just think that sometimes people are too trigger happy when it comes to calling in the government - are they really being abused?  Think about it - not the ideal (or even CLOSE) situation for goats, but does it really warrant calling animal control?  Think hard before making that call.  
I agree - I wouldn't do business with someone so unethical and wouldn't want to bring his goats onto my property.  I'd leave them be.  With any luck,  he'll go "out of business".


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 15, 2011)

I wouldn't buy them and I'd be honest and tell him why. He doesn't provide proper nutrition, he has no clue where the doe kid is, he knowingly leaves the doe kid in with the bucks who bully her, etc.  Guy sounds like a jackass.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Aug 15, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I wouldn't buy them and I'd be honest and tell him why. He doesn't provide proper nutrition, he has no clue where the doe kid is, he knowingly leaves the doe kid in with the bucks who bully her, etc.  Guy sounds like a jackass.


2x 
I wouldnt buy them either...and I would tell him straight out why as well.  And tell him baby goats dont hide..and he better start looking for a dead kid.  What a jerk.  HOW BOUT A KIDDING STAHL to keep them safe!!!  That momma will be pregant again around all those bucks soon enough!!!  Poor thing. 

I wouldnt worry to much about this guy being in the goat business to long...those goats will all die soon enough becuase of the dog food they are eating.  I would tell him that too.  He better get some diesel for his backhoe..cuz he will be diggin a while!

This angers me soooooo much!! Sorry to rant...but people a pathetic.  This is so mean and cruel it turns my stomach!!  His goats has more smarts them him!!

UGGHHHHHHHHHH


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 15, 2011)

I am not saying this guy is doing things right, but you would be surprised how well a doe can hide her kids, if you have the right kind of conditions in your pasture or fields.  I have looked quit a while on a couple occasions and I only have 6 acres and it isn't all that rocky, but lots of cedar trees and brush.


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## jodief100 (Aug 15, 2011)

I have to agree with the majority here. If you buy them, he will continue to do this.  The only way he will stop is if he loses money.  Paying for "rescues" just makes the problems worse.  I volunteer with dog rescue and I see it all the time.  People tell me how they "rescued" a puppy from a puppy mill when all they did was buy one.  The people running it are still in business and have even more puppies that need "rescued".  

I would be cautious about a call to animal control.  Yes the animals are in a bad situation but the people at animal control are rarely educated enough on livestock to make good decisions about it.  At best these animals may be removed.  At worst nothing happens and this guy now believes his practices are correct because they have been validated.  Offering to foster them makes you look like the bad guy who wants to steel this guys goats even though your heart is in the right place.  

As for his suggestion of bringing them to auction tell him to go right ahead.  If he really believed he could get $300 as much for them at auction, he wouldnt be willing to sell to you for $100.  I have used the I can take them to auction as a bargaining point with my customers but I KNOW what I can get for them at auction.  I will sell them for less on farm since I do not have to transport them but not that much less.


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## elevan (Aug 15, 2011)

I really don't think Animal Control would do much of anything here.  They are being fed...albeit incorrectly...none of them are skinny...albeit none have a healthy looking rumen....their coats all look good...but I don't know how long he's had them....he said he bought the entire herd together because of the buck's impressive set of horns    He thought the buck was only 1-2 years old...obviously it was at least 6-8 or older imo.

20kids, with the amount of goats, sheep and donkeys he had in an enclosed space there was NO cover for hiding...not even grass.  Granted the doe in question did "escape" the pen and was running freely on the property so she "could" have hid the kid.  But, come on...24 hours old and it disappears and they hadn't seen it since that morning and I was there at 7:30 at night?!  I really do think it's dead.

I was sick about the whole thing last night.  It just made me want to cry knowing the mismanagement issues that are going wrong there.  DH wasn't with me when I went to look at them...but I got an idea of what his reaction would have been when I told him about it when he got home from work...we may have been escorted from the property if DH had been with me.  The guy said he'd call me when he finds the kid and I'll probably just let DH give him a talking to at that point.

No, I won't be buying goat rescues...and I won't be calling animal control on this one (as jodief100 said it could come across wrong on my side).  I may call animal control in the near future and let them know that I have room to take in goat rescues if needed in case someone else calls though

The whole thing makes me mad and sad for those poor goats.


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## savingdogs (Aug 15, 2011)

I think we all feel the same way. 

I think having your husband say a few choice words to him would NOT be a bad idea. If you feel so strongly about them, offer to help them. I'd have him do it honestly and kindly....the man sounds ignorant and careless but you gain more ground with kindness and compassion if you are trying to educate. 

"My wife didn't feel comfortable buying the goats because of the conditions here. She was concerned they were being fed dog food. Do you realize that is not a natural diet for a goat, and goat chow is cheaper? She would feel so much better to hear you are feeding regular goat food, she was concerned to BUY goats that could be ILL from that. 
She was also worried about the missing kid because we raise goats ourselves and don't see the mamas leave the babies like that. Do you need any help getting a kidding stall built? That really helps protect your INVESTMENT in goats, protecting those mamas and letting them raise their kids right. Maybe some cross fencing here.....
Did you know that the "billy" goat is a called a buck by goat people and it isn't good to breed him to the female so quickly...It isn't good for the doe and you could lose her and what you paid for her."

If you appeal to his business sense (which may be contained in a brain the size of a peanut) you may get farther with him than making him feel like a bad person. That is how I would try to approach him, at least.


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 15, 2011)

Wanna commit a goat-napping?    That is so aggravating!

I have only called animal control about livestock once (guy had four horses on 1/2 acre, no shelter, and we were having an ice storm well below freezing-I mean the kind of storm where everything gets glazed with ice .  They didn't really do anything and then about a week later, my mom called crying telling me she walked by her back window and saw them digging a big hole in the middle of this crazy cold storm.  She watched for a few more minutes and realized they were then shoving one of the horses in to bury it.  I was so ticked but I guess he hadn't been doing anything animal control thought was so bad.


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## manybirds (Aug 15, 2011)

This just made me mad. so people like that bell who had all her rabbits taken away even though she was an AWSOME caretaker (if u havn't read that yet do so) and then there r people like that who feed there goats dog food and let them get beat up and never get cought. i don't really know what i would do.  

i know u made the decision not to get them but someone else will so.......it's up to u.


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## arabianequine (Aug 15, 2011)

Op says they don't look skinny so your right they are not starving but that is not all there is to proper care of a living animal. 

Their conditions are unsafe and unhealthy. 

Nutrition is not proper
Buck to doe is not proper ratio
Pregnancies are happening or going to, to soon
Doe is at large
Doe's baby is missing
He says to you that the bucks are mean and/or harassing the baby and/or doe's 

If you called don't say you can rescue them, that was just an option.
I don't think talking to him will do any good, I guess one can only hope. 

I disagree still though....I am only saying if it were me, I would call

Where is this again?


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## arabianequine (Aug 15, 2011)

manybirds said:
			
		

> This just made me mad. so people like that bell who had all her rabbits taken away even though she was an AWSOME caretaker (if u havn't read that yet do so) and then there r people like that who feed there goats dog food and let them get beat up and never get cought. i don't really know what i would do.
> 
> i know u made the decision not to get them but someone else will so.......it's up to u.


I did see it and read about that.


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## Hillsvale (Aug 15, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I can't imagine that ANY store sells dog food for less per pound than even the cheapest goat food!  Does he know this????  At least tell him this as a parting gift to those poor animals.  How can you NOT FIND a new baby?  Holy Carp.


that was my though too, as for that baby if he can't find it it must be a goner... maybe the doe buried it under hay if he bothered to give them any? What a shame.

Elevan unregistered stock here goes for anywhere between 100-150 and up!


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## manybirds (Aug 15, 2011)

i bought an unregistered mix dairy doe for 200. she was very well taken care, of already bred, from good stock, and milks good though.


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## arabianequine (Aug 15, 2011)

Most goats especially boer goats even 5-8 months old that is butcher weight, are going for $100 and up here too. 

The kids are cheaper though.


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## Roll farms (Aug 15, 2011)

I could throw a rock and hit 10 pygmies around me for less than 50$ ea.  
They're really common because our local "petting zoo" breeds them like mad / sells the offspring for 40$ ea.  One year they had over 70 kids born.  A goodly number died, but they sell enough to flood the local pygmy market.
Then...they grow up, jump on cars, escape too much, or *gasp* cost money to deworm / feed / care for and folks dump them cheap just to be rid of them....No papers, but most pet buyers don't care.

The number one reason not to feed goats dog food...it contains ruminant parts.  And while they do monitor / inspect dog food cuts, I'm sure there are times some sick cows and lambs end up at the dog food plant.  Feeding it back to a ruminant is just a bad idea.

But I agree, even our worst, cheapest, terrible dog food at TSC (Doggie Bag) is $12.00 for 40#.  You can get Noble Goat for that price.

UNLESS...he's one of those brain-trust types who scours around for 'damaged / outdated' feed.

Ugh.  I'm sorry the situation is upsetting you....and I know your heart's in the right place.


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## elevan (Aug 15, 2011)

First off - let me state that I have no problem paying $100 for unregistered stock that is well cared for.  But at the same time pygmies in my area that are unregistered go for $35-$150 depending on age and gender.  I'll be picking up a registered pygmy this week due that due to the owner's situation is only asking $50.  And I fully expect to pay a couple hundred for a lamancha when I'm ready to get one of them...(they're my choice for a dairy goat soon).

Pygmies are a huge thing around my area...true pygmies, not what this guy is trying to sell as a pygmy.

The point I was making was that those $100 unregistered stock animals who were mixed blood and not pygmies as advertised would have cost me a whole lot more in vet bills to bring them to proper health and to do the tests that I would want to do to check their welfare.

To the person who asked where this guy is located - PM me.

The guy told me he'd call today when he found the kid...guess what...no call.  I really think it's dead.

Animal control here takes 3-4 days to pick up a stray when I catch them and call it in.  Animal control here knows nothing about livestock...so even if I called and stated everything the guy is doing wrong and the why of it I really don't think it would do any good.

I was talking with a few other local farmers today and I let them know about him...I've spread the word in my area what this guy is doing and what type of stock he's trying to sell.

Goatknapping...?  Yeah, DH suggested rounding up a posse and doing that... I'm tempted.

Truth is that even though I've found 4 goats that fit what I'm looking for today, I still keep thinking about this man's goats.  It pulls at my heart but I will not enable the man by buying his goats.


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## redtailgal (Aug 15, 2011)

m


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## manybirds (Aug 15, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> First off - let me state that I have no problem paying $100 for unregistered stock that is well cared for.  But at the same time pygmies in my area that are unregistered go for $35-$150 depending on age and gender.  I'll be picking up a registered pygmy this week due that due to the owner's situation is only asking $50.  And I fully expect to pay a couple hundred for a lamancha when I'm ready to get one of them...(they're my choice for a dairy goat soon).
> 
> Pygmies are a huge thing around my area...true pygmies, not what this guy is trying to sell as a pygmy.
> 
> ...


I personaly would buy maybe 1


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## elevan (Aug 15, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> OK Elevan, its been a long rough day here and I need to get the heck up outa here!
> 
> 
> SOoooooo,I'll  swing by and pick up Rolls, we will have us a good old fashioned goat-nappin'.
> ...


Sounds like a good plan RTG    See you soon


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## elevan (Aug 17, 2011)

Look what I just came across on Craig's List:  http://columbus.craigslist.org/grd/2537044017.html

This is the same as the ad in the paper...so I KNOW it's the same guy.  The only change from the paper ad is that he no longer mentions the "nanny" kid on the one "nanny"...that's because I just know she died.  I think he should be flooded with some requests for pics and then some "helpful" advice...what do you all think?


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## Goatherd (Aug 17, 2011)

I'll let you know if I get the pics.


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## Chicks&Feathers (Aug 18, 2011)

Look what I just came across on Craig's List:  http://columbus.craigslist.org/grd/2537044017.html

This is the same as the ad in the paper...so I KNOW it's the same guy.  The only change from the paper ad is that he no longer mentions the "nanny" kid on the one "nanny"...that's because I just know she died.  I think he should be flooded with some requests for pics and then some "helpful" advice...what do you all think?



That is HORRIBLE!! I hope everyone on here can join in and give this nut some much needed goat education!! Hugs sent your way for this dilema you've been through with all of this!


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## elevan (Aug 18, 2011)

Thank you Chicks&Feathers.

Let us know if you get a response Goatherd.

My phone calls aren't returned...and since when I left him I told him I'd have to see that missing kid to make my decision that pretty much confirms to me that he either didn't find the kid (which is horrible) or that he did and it's dead (which is horrible too).

In case the CL ad gets deleted here it is:


> *Pygmy goats - $35* (centerburg)
> Date: 2011-08-17, 7:09PM EDT
> Reply to: sale-kxyvu-2537044017@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
> these are awsome stock the three billys younger billys are off of one of the best billy I have ever seen. I also have 2 unrealated nanies 1 had twins this year and the other is a yearling and 1 billy that is about 6 months old. price ranges from $35 to $100 email for pics
> ...


That "best _billy_ he's ever seen" is only because he's impressed by the horns.  Any pygmy buck of the same age that still has horns is gonna have a set just like it.  BTW that "impressive" _billy_, the 6 month old and the 3 younger ones are ALL in the pen with every single one of his does both mature and kid.  And that _nanny_ that had twins this year is the one he told me was just bred by his impressive billy.  How the heck can he know who's breeding who with 5 breeding age buck(ling)s in the pen with all of the does?!?


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## Goatherd (Aug 18, 2011)

No reply so far.


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## Goatherd (Aug 20, 2011)

Are these the goats?


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## elevan (Aug 20, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> Are these the goats?
> 
> http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Michael3215/untitled.png
> 
> http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Michael3215/ttg.png


Yep!

The first pic is the youngest bucklings.

The second pic is his "impressive" buck.


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