# The sad state of the Caucasian Ovcharka's in U.S.



## Grazer

I've long been doubting whether I should make this post or not, but today I said to myself: what the heck, maybe this post will save someone a lot of heartache.
For people wondering what LGD breed is this exactly, I made a topic about them not too long ago here:

In short, they are a livestock/property guardian breed that is rapidly becoming popular.
Which wouldn't be such a bad thing if there were good Caucasian shepherd breeders in U.S. But aside from 1, maybe 2, none of them are.

We paid good money for our female, only to end up with a dog that has been battling allergies. The symptoms of her allergies are severe hot spots (also known as moist dermatitis).
She has had 5 separate cases of hot spots in 1 year.
As some of you may know, there is a genetic component to allergies.
The breeder of our female (who we named Phoebe) did not care. And from what I understand our Phoebe is not the only Caucasian shepherd from that kennel with this problem.
I tried to nicely sort this out with the breeder, but it didn't work. The breeder simply did not want to admit that any of her breeding stock have health issues and she was not even remotely interested to get to the bottom of whatever was bothering Phoebe.

But here comes *the saddest part*: very few of the CO breeders in U.S. & Canada raise their CO's with livestock.
And just as few health test. They do not screen their breeding stock for hip/elbow dysplasia, thyroid, heart or eyes problems. Nothing what so ever.
Sure they all claim their dogs are healthy, but where is the proof? Where are the health test results?
And they charge an obscene amount of money for their puppies.
Money that pretty much goes straight back into their pockets.
They'll try to come up with an excuse and tell you how much it costs them to import a CO puppy of breeding quality, but don't fall for it.
This is not the only rare breed in U.S. and a good breeder will still do all the necessary health and temperament testing. Because they are not in it to make money.

On top of that, you won't believe the drama that goes amongst those breeders. The bad-mouthing, the rumors they start against one another, harassment, name calling, arguments etc..

And who ends up suffering?
That's right, the dogs and the owners who have to pay the huge vet bills or end up with a dog that has poor temperament.

I think the only way this horrible mess will ever stop is if people educate themselves and stop buying puppies from these unethical breeders.
The money of the buyers is what keeps these irresponsible, greedy, power hungry so called breeders going.
None of them (except the few I mentioned earlier in my post) care about preserving or improving the breed.


So: *BUYER BEWARE*
You have been warned.
And keep in mind that while in Europe there are bad breeders as well, plenty of CO breeders over there do care about the correct temperament and do health test.
You might even end up spending a little less money importing one or flying over to Europe to get the puppy yourself than you would if you'd get one from most CO breeders right here in U.S.

My last tip: *always, always visit the breeder in person first, at least once.* Check the living conditions of their dogs and check to see if they really raise them with livestock/poultry.
And check the breeder's knowledge. But above all, make them show you all the results from health tests. Put everything in writing, these are very expensive dogs.

I hope you will learn from my mistakes.


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## bj taylor

I can't speak to lgd, but I can speak to dealing with breeders & getting taken.  we have two german shepherds.  two different breeders.  paid a lot of money (same amount) for both.  the male is a spectacular specimen with solid temperament, good conformation, strong prey drive, but not rabid about it.  he would make the perfect search and rescue dog.  he will hunt for that item or person till forever.  he doesn't know quit.  now the female.  she mentally inferior, fragile temperament, terrible structure.  the breeder came with strong recommendations.  like Grazer says "Always visit the breeder first, at least once."  I know I won't make that mistake again.


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## Grazer

Thank you for sharing your experience with us bj taylor.
It's heartbreaking when you pay good money for a puppy, only to end up with a dog that has either health issues, temperament problems or both.
Especially with health issues, it affects the quality of life of that poor dog. 
And the vet bills pile up or you have a dog that is not suited to do the job that breed was bred to do.
Now of course sometimes even good breeders produce an inferior dog, but it's the way that breeder behaves after that happens that separates good breeders from the bad ones.

Good breeders will offer (part of the) money back, offer a puppy of the same or greater value for exchange (or when the owner is ready for the next one), or offer to pay (part of the) vet bills etc.
They will want to get to the bottom of it, they will want to get in touch with the vet so they can prevent that problem from happening again.
Bad breeders on the other hand will first deny that you have a sick dog or a dog with a poor temperament, and if you are persistent, they will break all contact with you.
And they'll continue to breed dogs they know have produced inferior puppies in the past.

I would also like to add that most more well known LGD breeds are not sold for a lot of money.
They usually go for anywhere around $200 and $400. 
If they come from a working stock and the buyer gets to meet the parents, everything looks good, the breeder is not breeding too often, but rather breeding because he/she wants functional LGD's and because his/hers dogs have the correct temperament and a good confirmation, then I don't think it's odd or wrong if the seller has not health tested the parents of puppies he/she is selling for a very reasonable amount.
After all, these health tests do cost money so one can not expect the breeder to do all that and still keep his/hers puppies cheap.

The problem arises when (like in case with the Caucasian shepherds), we have breeders selling puppies for anywhere between $1800 and $3000 for a puppy with papers and $1600 for a puppy without papers.
Without caring about the health or preserving this breed as a working dog.
For that sum of money they could definitely afford to perform health testing on their breeding stock, but they don't want to. As it will cut in their profits.

So it is up to us, the buyers, to not settle for less and not settle for any breeder that wants over $800 for their puppy without performing all the necessary health testing. Regardless of whether they are a member or even the president of a breed club, as that often means nothing.
And again, if the buyer wants to avoid problems down the road, it is crucial that they (among other things) visit the breeder at least once before they agree to anything.


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## Southern by choice

Grazer, as usual you are perfectly on the point!

I am so sorry you are having to go through this with Phoebe. 

I see this often,  and I will say it is a terrible shame. Most people kindof expect that paying for a pup (not a trained- full grown dog) at the tune of $1000-$2000 that the testing would be there. 

I have veiwed breeder contracts for others and am always dismayed at a few things, some of what you have mentioned but others such as with papers $1500 w/out papers $750.... this is all about the money... an angle on, _well I want a peice of that_. These breeders often do not have any testing done.

I also agree 100% on your second posting. If you are looking at 200-400 (600 depending on breed of dog) than you shouldn't expect testing either. Testing costs thousands of dollars, and in the end those pups are going to cost. They should. The average farmer wants the dog down the street that they see doing the job and know it is a good dog and they cannot dish out thousands. 

One sure sigh of maybe you should stay away is if the "breeder" has lots of Females but only one male, also on websites where you see perpetual litters, dogs seem to always be available, that should give you pause. 

Paying alot of money doesn't mean it is a great dog... likewise, paying a little bit of money doesn't mean you are getting a crappy dog.

@ Grazer- I will e-mail you soon... I am doing some research for you on the issue at hand.


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## Grazer

You are so right Southern.
These unethical breeders sure do know how to come off as reputable. 
They spend a lot of time trying to present themselves as if they really care about their dogs and their puppy buyers, when in reality it is just a ploy to make more sales.
Wish they would invest that much energy into their breeding stock.

And it's true, when a breeder asks one price for puppies with- and another for puppies without the papers, it is usually a huge red flag.
I really love this breed, it is a breed I hope I'll always own, but I honestly do not feel like paying anywhere close to $1600 for one again.
It's just too much money for a dog in my opinion. Plus if something goes wrong it is more bothersome because you feel like you've thrown all that money in vain.

And I think what is most important to take from this topic (especially for people who are considering to pay a large sum of money for an LGD or another breed) 
it is to have everything put in writing, ask for results from parents' health testing and meet the breeder and the dogs in person.


Thanks so much for all your kind, thoughtful words and your effort Southern


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## Southern by choice

*You know Grazer... YOU would make the best breeder! *You have a passion and such care... those are the very ones that *should* breed! Usually they are the ones that won't breed. 
I hope you can consider that in the future.

You do a great deal for this  rare breed.  I have learned so much from you and you are so easy to talk with. Keep up the educating and informing.  There are so many breeds that you are very familiar with that I haven't even heard of, I for one am glad there are people like you to walk us through. 

I feel so inadequate to even comment  because I am so ignorant to the breed. 

Yes, the breeder world sure can be cut-throat!:/


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## Grazer

Thank you, you are too kind Southern!
And you're absolutely right, people who are truly passionate about a breed and truly care usually never end up breeding or rarely ever have litters.
Breeding dogs, when done correctly is very hard and takes a lot of time, money and effort.
Plus when you breed such large dogs, you have to have enough property to house any potential dog your buyer may end up bringing back.
So I don't see myself ever getting involved with breeding lol

I feel like I have learned a lot from you too. You have raised dogs and been involved in that world so much longer than me.
And I just plain enjoy reading this forum. It is so very interesting for me to read about the experiences of others with LGD's (my favorite type of dogs) and how they end up handing any problems that arise.


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## terrilhb

This is so upsetting to me. People like the people you are all talking about should be banned from ever breeding. I respect you Grazer and Southern by choice for being so honest and willing to educate everyone. We need more people like you both. Hugs to you both.


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## boykin2010

Great Post!  True of a lot of breeds in dogs and other animals...

I have gotten multiple emails from people stating that "Caucasian Ovcharka's or Caucasian Mountain Dog is my DREAM DOG" Please let me know if you have any for sale... Love the pictures of yours! 

Well... I have a picture of my Great Pyrenees male on my website and I guess people think that he is their "dream Caucasian Ovcharka."  You would think they would be able to tell the difference between the two breeds if they are really looking and searching for one... :/
I don't have any Caucasian Ovcharkas and I don't even breed the Great Pyrenees


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## Southern by choice

bj taylor said:
			
		

> I can't speak to lgd, but I can speak to dealing with breeders & getting taken.  we have two german shepherds.  two different breeders.  paid a lot of money (same amount) for both.  the male is a spectacular specimen with solid temperament, good conformation, strong prey drive, but not rabid about it.  he would make the perfect search and rescue dog.  he will hunt for that item or person till forever.  he doesn't know quit.  now the female.  she mentally inferior, fragile temperament, terrible structure.  the breeder came with strong recommendations.  like Grazer says "Always visit the breeder first, at least once."  I know I won't make that mistake again.


I so understand this! very sad too. My current GSD had a horrible schutzhund trainer. As a pup she did well and was awarded a VP at the National Sieger. Very good ranking also... then off she went to the trainer. Ruined the dog. I did not own her at the time, I got her after all this... sadly her issues were not that evident at the time I went to see her and got her, I wanted to work her... only later did I get the full story. I was livid with the breeder, but I decided her bloodlines alone and the fact that I train... well... it was best she remain with me. Her confidence was broken in some ways, strong in others. She will not pass a traffic test but I swear she could pass an endurance test!   I believe shock may have been used on her. SO SAD! She has natural/instinctual herding ability and tracking... so we will work with that and she will be awesome!  

*YEP! I failed to do a thorough evaluation*. Completely stupid on my part... happens. She has strong bite, outs well, is highly intelligent but still lacks confidence in some areas. We do have the "face" issues too.  NEver ever have I had a shepherd that lacked in anything. We of course have always had good dogs with sound lines. I will say though my LGD's have now stolen my heart... 



> *Grazer wrote*- In short, they are a livestock guardian/property protection breed that is rapidly becoming popular.
> Which wouldn't be such a bad thing if there were good Caucasian shepherd breeders in U.S. But aside from 1, maybe 2, none of them are.


Grazer do you know if this breeder raises their dogs with livestock? Do you think that a dog of this breed would still do well with livestock even if not coming from livestock guarding parent stock? In other words do you think the natural instinct is still there?


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## Grazer

Thank you terrilhb
Unfortunately bad breeders seem to be the norm in the dog world. Good breeders are few and far between, especially in countries where Kennel Clubs do not have strict rules or hardly any rules at all.
And there are barely any laws to protect the animals and the buyers.
Which is why breeders, even the ones who register with AKC/UKC, can get away with so much.


boykin2010, those e-mails you got are the perfect example of how little research most people will do before they decide to get a puppy.
If the buyers do not educate themselves, they will be nothing but "easy prey" for these greedy so called breeders.



Southern, yes that one lady does raises hers with livestock (she is also a member of BYH).
I do believe there are still a lot of CO's out there who even if they are not coming from livestock guarding parent stock, would make good LGD's.
If the owner keeps a couple of things in mind: the property is fenced securely with a minimum of a 6ft no climb horse fence and the owner will interact on a daily basis with its CO.
The instinct is still there with a good number of CO's. I have seen it with our CO's and a great number of others. But, I would never recommend to someone who is not really experienced with LGD's to go down that route.
For first time LGD owners it is often hard enough to implement a puppy from working stock, let alone one from non-working stock.

For people who just want a regular LGD and don't want to spend an obscene amount of money for a dog, then my advice would be to stay away from this breed.
The Caucasian shepherd is in general more human aggressive than any other LGD breed out there (Sarplaninac, Kuvasz, South Russian shepherd dog, Tibetan Mastiff, Romanian Mioritic Shepherd Dog and some lines of Central Asian shepherds are in general quite protective too), they are on top of that very expensive if you live in U.S. or in Canada, hardly any of the breeders here health test and only one actually raises hers with livestock.
So in my opinion for someone new to the LGD's, this is just not worth it.

But if someone has really fallen in love with this breed, and really wants to have one as an LGD, then I would say do your homework, find a good breeder that is very knowledgeable, health tests, temperament tests and can show dogs from their previous litters working successfully as LGD's.
To achieve all that I think you will most likely have to travel to Europe to pick up a well bred pup, but when you compare those costs (the cost of paying for your own plane ticket, paying for the puppy + crate, and then paying for puppy to come on board) with what the North American breeders charge for theirs, you will end up paying about the same or sometimes even a little less.


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## Briard'nSheep

Sadly there are bad breeders in every breed. Some don't even know it.. take my breed (the Briard) for example. the Briard is a beautiful french herding bred that has been breed since the 14th century. In europe it has remained more like the old breed while there is a breeder in the USA that has pretty much re-written the standard to her liking. They have created a dog very different but sadly it does WELL in the show ring. So she keeps breeding since they "do so well!" 
It is a dog I stay away from as far as possible

Luckily there are a few smart people that do their research, like the "old ways" and to keep the traditional (working) dogs. We just have to be so very vigilant where we find or place our dogs...


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## Grazer

Excellent post Briard'nSheep!
It is frighting how much damage greedy breeders can do to even most ancient breeds.


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## bcnewe2

I'm on a crappy cell phone so will keep this short....
When you breed for form instead of function like the akc promotes, breeders will continue to ruin their chosen breed.  Even if its a breed that is bred to do nothing it will end up with enough health issues that nothing is to much for the akc breeds.  Yes I have an issue the the akc and its money grubbing directors.


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## Grazer

I feel the exact same way bcnewe2
When breeders put the exterior of a dog ahead of functionality and good health, breeds become ruined. 
On top of that, for most bad breeders, breeding is a source of income. Combine that with the fact that there are no proper rules & regulations from the kennel clubs to keep them in check and you have a recipe for disaster.


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## Southern by choice

Grazer - been gathering some info... maybe this w/e I can send you an e-mail.  
there may be something useful in it... most, if not all, you probably already know figured it wouldn't hurt to see if there is that "one nugget".

nite- nite all!


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## bcnewe2

I just had my hay guy, a man I have yet to meet ask me if I want to breed Jesse, my 8 month old Anatolian.  I asked him about his male just to be nice. He informed me he keeps him a a chain in the front of his house but he was already studded out once.  I then inquired where or who got the pups.  He proudly told me they sold them on puppyfind for "good money".  Unfortunately that is the normal mentality for breeding dogs.  
I politely explained my breeding practices (I've never bred a litter in my life of dogs) and explained even if Jesse might be a perfect specimen she wouldn't be bred by me unless she turns out perfect and the perfect working male comes along.  Not one chained in the front yard.  Makes me sad to just think about an lgd being kept on a chain as a yard ornament. 
Sadly he didn't even begin to understand what I was trying to explain.  Why is it so easy for us to understand and so hard for others to even begin to comprehend?
Maybe its our true love of dogs? I Just can't figure it out.


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## treeclimber233

I know what you mean about breeding "just because we both have one".  I had some people come over to see Drift (GP).  He is absolutely terrified of any stranger that comes to the barn.  Sometimes he will not even come to me for a while after they leave.  I had a guy ask me if he could bring his neighbors female over to breed them when she came into heat "because he wanted one".  Drift will try to climb a 7 foot chain link fence if any strangers go to the barn. Not the mentality I would ever breed.  Luckily he is neutered because my husband was all for it.  I mean ....come on....really??????


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## Grazer

Thank you very much Southern, it is really appreciated.
I'm sure the info will be very useful. Because as you said there is good chance there will be something in it that we haven't given a shot yet.  

bcnewe2, treeclimber233, yes that is the typical mentality of a backyard breeder. 
I will never understand people with such mindset. I mean if they don't care about the wellbeing of their dog, don't they at least want a dog that will be able to do its job correctly?
You can't have that with sick or unstable dogs.
But then again, what am I saying. People like that don't ever really sit down and think. Which is why in this country we have over 2 million dogs and cats being euthanized in animal shelters each and every year.

Speaking of functionality, I think it is important to mention (to anyone who might accidentally stumble upon this topic) that there is another group of people that threatens the LGD breeds.
I will start with an example about the Caucasian Ovcharka's. 
There is a small group of breeders that are trying to preserve and breed mainly with just aboriginal Caucasian shepherds. Which on the surface sounds great.
But within that small group, there are breeders who use that as a sales pitch.
There is a lot of variety within this breed, but these breeder will chose 1 variety and declare that all others (particularly the more modern looking CO's) are nothing but mutts crossed with St. Bernard's, Newfoundland dogs, Leonbergers etc.
Only their CO's are the true CO's.
Which I find annoying because a) they have no proof that could back their claims up and b) they do this so they can sell more dogs.
But what is even more appalling: several of these aboriginal CO breeders fight their dogs. 
They don't fight them like pitbulls are fought (meaning they don't fight them till the death, they usually fight them till the other dog submits), but it is still dog fighting.

So while only a handful of these twisted breeders fight their CO's, within the Turkish LGD breeds and the Central Asian shepherd breed (the cousin breed of the Caucasian shepherds), you can now actually speak of fighting lines (_the Central Asians breeder I mentioned in that other thread avoids fighting lines and is really trying to preserve this breed as LGD's and guardians_).
Slowly but surely, these dog fighters have managed to turn the Turkish LGD breeds and Central Asian shepherds from fighting lines into dogs that are too unstable and too aggressive to function in packs. 

And what is even more sickening, these people will try to tell you how this has do be done in order to obtain a better LGD.
Because apparently this prepares them better for their encounter with wolves.
What these sorry excuses for humans fail to (or don't want to) realize is that dogs do not fight like wolves. 
Besides there are tons of other predators that will threaten livestock.
The only good selection tool for an LGD is to actually raise your dogs with livestock and have it actively protect your animals.

Then they will go on to explain to you how how dog fighting has always been used as a selection tool by shepherds in that part of the world.
When in reality this was over there always done for barbaric entertainment/gambling purposes.
Usually in Central Asian countries or in Turkey, people used to gather around during fairs or some other celebrations and amongst other things they would watch and bet on cock fighting or dog fighting (or as they like to call it: dog wrestling).
But the shepherds would never bring their valuable, proven LGD's. As they were too important for them. So dogs that were fought were usually "green" dogs that no one would miss if they would get injured and die.
Fast forward to the 20th and the 21st century, industrialization has pretty much pushed out the pastoral way of life.
There was less and less use for LGD dogs. Until some sick, twisted people figured out that they could use these majestic, powerful dogs to make lots of money (through gambling and selling the puppies of a "champion").
And they started having their fighting tournaments in countries where that was legal. 
Pretty soon they also started selling their dogs to people living in the western countries (U.S. included). 
In the West dog fighting is illegal and frowned upon (and rightfully so!). This is when these dog fighters and people who buy dogs from them started spreading the false history of shepherds of old using dog fighting as a selection tool for breeding of LGD's.

When in reality the only reason they say such utter nonsense is because they don't want to openly admit that they are animal abusers and/or actively supporting animal abusers. 

And this brings me back my original point that I hope whoever reads this topic will remember: All that glitters is not gold. Meaning: don't let bunch of pictures and video's impress you.
Do plenty of research, visit the breeder in person, ask for health results of their breeding stock (this is especially important if you are going to put a lot of money for your future LGD) and have everything put in writing.


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## HotinAZ

The Caucasian Ovcharka is the dog I would like to get. Yet, I do not know where to get one, where I won't be ripped off by a puppy mill. I have investigated a lot of breeders here in the U.S. and quite frankly, I think it is the roll of the dice, whether or not the puppy will end up being healthy ! The breeders in Canada and U.S.A. seem to be up in arms about the National Geographic segment on the dog. I really like the segment, to actually show a novice, what they are getting into, if they decide to get one of these "Bears". Can somebody who has experience in selecting breeders give me a head up? Or somebody who actually owns one, tell me where to go get a "purebred" where the breeder actually is ethical and always does the right thing. Do I have to fly over to Russia, to see the breeding facility? LOL Thanks HotinAZ


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## Southern by choice

Grazer is the one to answer this. She is awesome with these rare to the US breeds.
Hopefully she will see this soon.


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## Grazer

Thanks Southern 



			
				HotinAZ said:
			
		

> The Caucasian Ovcharka is the dog I would like to get. Yet, I do not know where to get one, where I won't be ripped off by a puppy mill. I have investigated a lot of breeders here in the U.S. and quite frankly, I think it is the roll of the dice, whether or not the puppy will end up being healthy ! The breeders in Canada and U.S.A. seem to be up in arms about the National Geographic segment on the dog. I really like the segment, to actually show a novice, what they are getting into, if they decide to get one of these "Bears". Can somebody who has experience in selecting breeders give me a head up? Or somebody who actually owns one, tell me where to go get a "purebred" where the breeder actually is ethical and always does the right thing. Do I have to fly over to Russia, to see the breeding facility? LOL Thanks HotinAZ


You are certainly right about that, most of the Caucasian Ovcharka breeders in U.S. and in Canada are simply not ethical breeders.
They don't put health and proper temperament first and yet they have no problem asking thousands of dollars for a pup.
We own two Caucasian Ovcharka's, one of them (our female) was bred by a very unethical breeder from U.S.

As for the National Geographic segment, well I think the main thing that bothers me is that skinny guy who lets his CO drag him through the street. 
NatGeo made it seem like it's a breed thing, but in reality if that guy had raised his CO properly, his CO would have behaved quite nicely on the leash. 
If his CO was as dangerous as NatGeo tried to make it appear, the camera crew would have not been able to film him inside the house.
This breed is definitely not suited for inexperienced people but they are trainable. 

You just have to keep in mind that they are very protective, which means you need a minimum of 6ft fence all around your property and after they mature, they usually do not get along with strange dogs at all.
Looking at your screen name, I have to wonder if AZ stands for Arizona lol 
The only reason why I even mention this is because this breed doesn't do well in overly hot or humid climate.
They'll be very miserable. So if that's where you live, I couldn't recommend this breed for you. If not, then please ignore that remark 
I mean you could opt for a short-haired CO, but they are very rare. And it's difficult to find an ethical short-haired CO breeder. 


A well bred CO is stable, protective and agile dog. Too many CO breeders only focus on looks and not on the functionality of this breed. 
I will PM you the name of in my opinion probably the only U.S. CO breeder that's worth checking out. She raises her CO's with livestock, so that's a huge plus in my book.
And I'll PM you the names of ethical CO breeders in Europe.
Basically you'll want a breeder that both health & temperament tests its breeding stock.
And by temperament testing I mean that they are testing the dog's natural ability to defend its property and owner. 

Last but not least: always, always visit the breeder and check out all their dogs in person first, ask them to show you the health results etc, before you commit to buy.


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## HotinAZ

Hi Grazer, yes I do live in Phoenix Arizona. And yes it is usually 115 degrees in the Summer. I am glad to know this is probably not the Dog, that should be living in the desert. There is another breeder in Nevada, that specializes in CO's. I wonder what he has to say about the weather, situation?. Yes, I have 6 foot block walls around my house, but I really think they should be higher. It is no wonder they say you cannot leave this breed alone, and never take it off the leash. Thank you so much for your information. I am sure with what you have put on the website, that you have done a lot of good, making sure there is not a Owner/Dog mismatch, that ends up hurting the dog in the end. The dog is the one, that gets put up for adoption. 
And no, I do not have a lot of experience in the LGD breeds. I have not owned a dog in many, many years. Cheers HotinArizona


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## Grazer

Yes that guy has been involved with this breed for a very long time now. 
Sometimes he has short-haired CO's available as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think he health tests.
I read on his site that he has sold CO's to owners in Florida.
Personally I don't think a CO would be happy in places where it gets that hot or where it gets very humid. Ours are very unhappy when it gets over just 80 degrees. 
I suppose one could keep them in rooms with AC during the day, but CO's love being outside. 
Plus it defeats the purpose of getting a property/livestock guardian if they can not be outside throughout the summer. 

You are right, they are not good off leash. 
Maybe if an owner was living in the middle of nowhere, but if there are people/other dogs around, they would be too much of a liability off leash. Because of their independent nature.
You can leave this breed by themselves outside, if your property is properly fenced. Normally they are not roamers.
I would just not recommend to people who live in suburbs to leave their CO's outside while they are away, in such case I think it's better to leave them in the house.
As sometimes little kids may try to climb over the fence to see the doggy and that can be a recipe for disaster. 

Thank you for your kind words. There is unfortunately just way too much wrong info about this breed in English on the internet.
And my other reason why I made that post: to warn future CO owners and ask them to be more critical.
CO's with papers in U.S. and in Canada cost anywhere between $1600 and $3000 (in Europe well bred CO's with papers are usually between $700 and $1000), so the least the breeders here could do is health test.
I hope that if more and more people become critical and don't settle for poorly bred, expensive CO's.. The breeders will eventually feel obliged to health test and breed for functionality, not just looks.


You can also look into the Central Asian Ovcharka's (the cousin breed of the Caucasian shepherd). Usually they are not anywhere near as intense when it comes to guarding, but they are still plenty protective and they often have very short coats.


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## COERIC

Grazer said:


> Yes that guy has been involved with this breed for a very long time now.
> Sometimes he has short-haired CO's available as well. I could be wrong, but I don't think he health tests.
> I read on his site that he has sold CO's to owners in Florida.
> Personally I don't think a CO would be happy in places where it gets that hot or where it gets very humid. Ours are very unhappy when it gets over just 80 degrees.
> I suppose one could keep them in rooms with AC during the day, but CO's love being outside.
> Plus it defeats the purpose of getting a property/livestock guardian if they can not be outside throughout the summer.
> 
> You are right, they are not good off leash.
> Maybe if an owner was living in the middle of nowhere, but if there are people/other dogs around, they would be too much of a liability off leash. Because of their independent nature.
> You can leave this breed by themselves outside, if your property is properly fenced. Normally they are not roamers.
> I would just not recommend to people who live in suburbs to leave their CO's outside while they are away, in such case I think it's better to leave them in the house.
> As sometimes little kids may try to climb over the fence to see the doggy and that can be a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words. There is unfortunately just way too much wrong info about this breed in English on the internet.
> And my other reason why I made that post: to warn future CO owners and ask them to be more critical.
> CO's with papers in U.S. and in Canada cost anywhere between $1600 and $3000 (in Europe well bred CO's with papers are usually between $700 and $1000), so the least the breeders here could do is health test.
> I hope that if more and more people become critical and don't settle for poorly bred, expensive CO's.. The breeders will eventually feel obliged to health test and breed for functionality, not just looks.
> 
> 
> You can also look into the Central Asian Ovcharka's (the cousin breed of the Caucasian shepherd). Usually they are not anywhere near as intense when it comes to guarding, but they are still plenty protective and they often have very short coats.


Hello,  I noticed there was a post that you put 
*The sad state of the Caucasian Ovcharka's in U.S.*

I am looking to Buy a Caucasian Ovarchaka but when I read your post I got a little fearful of which Breeder in the US you were speaking of? I am looking to buy a Ovarchaka from Rockhill Caucasian and thought you may have heard of them? 

I just fell in love with the breed and doing more research but I am not sure which breeder to go with? I am looking into Rockhill but was wondering if you have any insights you can share? 

Thank you for your time, Eric!


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## Grazer

Hi Eric, I have PM'd you.


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## Zach R.

Grazer,
          I am looking for a Caucasian Ovarchaka as well.  I live in WY and have a good deal of land with cattle.  I have weimaraner and a large german shepherd.  I have spent countless hours trying to research a good breeder and have had little to no luck when I have called or emailed with questions about their breeding "standards".  I would greatly appreciate any help.  Thank you.

Zach


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## Pips

Here is our Nagazi, what most in the US call a Caucasian Ovcharka, he is one of a few in the household and our only male.  2 years old and almost perfect as a specimen.  We only buy our Nagazi from Bulgaria, Romania and surrounding countries.  Georgia has nice temperaments but Russia pinched all decent blood lines in the 60-80s so they tend to have weak blood lines although getting stronger now.  Russia, although proud of their heritage of the breed they call their own, which it is not, have cross bred so much you are not sure you will get true lines, all Nagazi should come out black or very very dark when born, one way to check the blood lines in your breeder.  If you want know the breeders I recommend let me know.  It is better to import in my opinion from the balkan areas due to Russian distribution in the 70s before cross breeding and unchanged lines.


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## Grazer

Pips, I don't know who you are but your post is nothing but nonsense.
Your dog is a typical representative of the modern, Russian line.
Russians do not call CO's their own, they are very honest about how this breed came to be.But they do have the FCI patronage over this breed. Big difference.
Aboriginal CO's from Georgia and other nations on Caucasus look quite different.

As for the Balkan areas, did you know that CO's didn't even appear on the Balkans before the 80's?
I know this because this is very I am originally from.

FYI there is no proof what so ever that CO's are crossbreeds. No DNA proof, nothing. And let me tell you, their DNA was recently studied.
So please save the nationalistic crap and I would appreciate if you wouldn't post silliness in the very serious topic I started.
Thank you.


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## Pips

Grazer, impressively insulting ... maybe talk to some Georgians about the breed.  I really don't want to argue, but Please check Turkish & Georgian archives, there are COs on coats of arms & paintings as stated here looking exactly like the heavyset COs of today.  http://georgiaabout.com/2012/07/07/about-dogs-caucasian-shepherd-dogs/

I am sorry Grazer, but the breed was stolen from where the name originates "Caucus"  And strange that you say that as there are old videos way before the 80s, in the balkans, from the Russian breeding programmes spreading to military installations.  Also Nagazi's were used in the Bulgarian mountains at least 300 years ago, probably osmosis from Turkey. 

There is a monastery in Georgia that has a male, they been breeding for many many decades, as he looks almost the same as my male. 
Cross breeding ... lots of Russian websites state the fact.

Tbh I am no expert, this is what I have been read and been told over the many years, and I have 100s of owners and breeders on my FB, and if you translate enough you can find some great history on this breed, so pools of information, and I have researched it quite bit. 

Russian lines tend to be more mixed in my opinion, and not guaranteed to be purer, and I think it is dangerous to mix the breed such as this, considering its power and temperament, the character should be maintained. Saying that there are some amazing blood lines and breeders in Russia I agree, I would just be careful like in the US.

And my boy could be from the better Russian lines true, some of the old blood still exists, but he is Nagazi, from Georgia, not a Russian breed sorry matey.

You are welcome to complain, contest or disagree .... but "but your post is nothing but nonsense." is very sweeping.
So lets agree to disagree here.  

"So please save the nationalistic crap and I would appreciate if you wouldn't post silliness in the very serious topic I started." 
Seems you are not used to free speech.  Above is not nationalist, I am not Georgian, Irish actually.  Although we are prone to "Nationalist Crap" as you put it .... it doesn't tend to be about Russia.  And also please note we don't live in mother Russia so I am entitled to post what I believe no?  You seem a little defensive over the whole thing, but again off topic.  And please don't belittle other people's posts just because you disagree.  I am serious, I do believe what I wrote and I refuse to be make this a political argument.

"FCI patronage over this breed" means nothing to me tbh, breed was taken due to the amazing nature of the dog and labelled Russian, and it should not be so, do you disagree?
You can see some of my male's puppy cousins & half-brothers in the film "the way back"

"Aboriginal CO's from Georgia and other nations on Caucasus look quite different"  I actually agree here ... maybe they don't look amazingly different but there are size differences.  Georgians tend to a bit shallower, shorter and not so heavyset, but again mostly due to the removal of the best lines in the 60s-70s.  If you look really closely, I mean at skull and bone level (yes even DNA), they are the same dog or very very close.

But again I don't want to argue, this is just my knowledge and experience, and I could possibly be wrong, but then you would be arguing with not just me but most breeders in Eastern Europe, especially Georgia 

One question I have for you.  How many Russian lines were tested?  I would love to see the DNA research results.  Note again I am not saying all lines are poor on the Russian CO front... however I trust them only an inch more than the present OCs in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Water_Dog
The Russians played with most of their lines, breeding with different taller & and less aggressive breeds.  Even their water dog is part OC 

And wait .... "So: *BUYER BEWARE"  You are allowed to slag of the US breeders but no one can say anything about the Russian breeders?*

And my final opinion is the best lines ended up in Romania and Bulgaria .... with Georgia making an amazing come back.


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## Grazer

Pips, where exactly did I write no one can say anything bad about the Russian breeders?

Most CO breeders in Russia are bad, not because they mix-breed but because they inbreed a lot and don't health test.
However, no one is officially labeling CO's as being a Russian breed.
Every sane CO breeder out there is honest about the origins of this breed. I also wrote a post about it here: http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/my-view-on-the-caucasian-shepherd-dog.22828/

Do you know why CO's in the link you placed here look exactly like CO's from the modern Russian lines? It's because the Georgians started importing CO's from Russia in the recent years.
Because in Georgia due to different reasons the quality of their native LGD's has tremendously watered down.
I don't care where you are from though, someone fed you the nationalistic nonsense and you are repeating it here in a topic about the CO breeders in U.S. I started.

The Bulgarian kennel you mentioned, the one who borrowed their dogs for that movie "The Way Back" only has CO's from modern Russian lines.
The same dogs you claim are crossbred.
No CO's were on Balkans before the 1980's. There are registers out there, and I am in contact with a lot of presidents of clubs for Russian breeds (_including breeds Russia has a patronage over, as they are the ones who created the breed standard_ _and got FCI to recognize CO's_) in that part of Europe.
In fact the first FCI CO's that appeared outside Russia were in Eastern Germany somewhere in the late 60's. These dogs were used to guard the Berlin Wall amongst other things. A decade later CO's started appearing in Poland and in Hungary for example, but they wouldn't appear on the Balkans until the 80's.

You are confusing the native LGD breeds from the Balkans with the FCI CO's.


Yes the Soviet Army had different breeding projects going on, where they were trying to create different breeds better suited for their needs.
It is how for example the Black Russian Terrier, Eastern European shepherd and the Moscow Watchdog was created.
But these projects were kept separated from their breeding program for CO's.
You talk about CO's from Russian lines (_even though you yourself have a CO from such lines, but obviously you can't even read pedigree's_) being mainly crossbreeds as if it's a fact. And you even say this is a fact.
Do you even know that "fact" means: a thing that is indisputably the case? Facts are not based on hearsay or some random websites, they are based on scientific evidence for examples. Something indisputable.

As for the DNA testing, google Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Asian Shepherd Dogs.

FYI Pips, if you want to see what native dogs from Caucasus really look like, take a good look at this album: https://www.facebook.com/hamlik.parsanian/photos

Anyway, you yourself admit you are not an expert on CO's, then why do you continue to argue with me on this?
I started this topic regarding the CO breeders in U.S. what you are doing is incredibly rude and if you continue, I will ask the admin to close this topic.


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## Grazer

1 more thing Pips, do you know that *just today* you are the *third* person I had this very same argument with?
The previous two arguments happened on a different forum and at least those people knew the difference between native looking types and modern lines in this breed.
I'm starting to get really fed up with people who know nothing to very little about CO's, and don't base their opinions on facts and documents, but somehow manage to track me down and start arguing with me.

You don't even know what patronage means. Obviously you have never even read the FCI breed standard and what it says about the origin of this breed.
Here you go: http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/workingdogs/caucasian_fci.htm
It clearly says origin: USSR (which used to include Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, just to name a few). Patronage: Russia.


Last but not least, take a good look at this:

here's an example of dogs Russians imported from Georgia in the late 1940's/early 1950's








And here are examples of two CO's from modern Russian lines (they are from the kennel Russkiy Risk), now ask yourself who does your CO resemble? Native dogs from Caucasus or CO's from the modern, Russian lines?
And just for kicks and giggles, you should upload the pedigree of your dog.

(this is Russkiy Risk Verniy Drug)






(same dog as above, but different angle)






(this is Russkiy Risk Zabava)


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## elevan

This thread is closed.


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