# Loose mineral..."if it's red, it's dead."



## cmjust0 (Aug 19, 2009)

So, I found this article interesting.  Thought you guys might want to check it out.

I know several goat folks who have had personal dealings with the author...he knows goats.  

So...what color is _your_ mineral?


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## lupinfarm (Aug 19, 2009)

interesting. that clears some stuff up for me, i can see how colour doesn't always mean quality or quantity of a mineral. it's like, my orange-aid is orange in colour... but theres no actual oranges in it.


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## Laney (Aug 19, 2009)

Very very good article.  Very informative.  Thank you for sharing.

Laney


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## lilhill (Aug 20, 2009)

Very good article.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

Yep...I thought it was pretty interesting.  Especially the part about copper being in the form of copper oxide versus copper sulfate or some other form of bioavailable copper..  

I'm beginning to see the signs of moderate to severe copper deficiency in my own herd (...in the black purebreds, anyway...) and now I know why...loose mineral with +/- 700ppm of copper oxide that goes in one side and out the other.

Also makes sense as to why I personally know some folks who are able to dose their entire herd with the 12.5g Copasure copper oxide wire particle boluses -- the entire bolus, even for 60-70lb kids! -- once every year without killing anybody...extremely low bioavailability.

I love learning stuff.


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## freemotion (Aug 20, 2009)

Can you give us some ideas as to what brand of minerals will have the proper copper so I can harrass the local feed stores into ordering it?


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## ksalvagno (Aug 20, 2009)

When you say "red" does it really look red? Do you have any pictures of what the different minerals look like? I'm assuming the blocks of salt that look kind of red would be bad but I don't use those anyway. Will it say on the label which copper was used?


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

ksal said:
			
		

> When you say "red" does it really look red? Do you have any pictures of what the different minerals look like? I'm assuming the blocks of salt that look kind of red would be bad but I don't use those anyway. Will it say on the label which copper was used?


Every loose mineral mix I've ever seen from TSC and other farm stores is red in color.  DuMor brand minerals are red...American Stockman brand minerals are red..  

The red color is Iron Oxide (aka _rust_).  When you consider what the article says about Iron (Fe) in the form of Iron Oxide (FeO) being completely unavailable to the animal...and then you see that the entire bag is red...wow.

Now combine that with copper oxide...  Did you guys know that some sheep producers -- SHEEP producers -- are bolusing their flock with Copasure to control parasites?  I mean, if that doesn't speak to the low bioavailability of copper oxide, I dunno what does..  Copper is a natural anthelmintic, proven to be effective at controlling Haemonchus Contortus, aka barberpole worms..the primary helminths you're judging by FAMACHA anemia scores..

Copper to control worms, Iron to help with anemia..

Just think about what bioavailable iron and copper supplementation could do for your FAMACHA scores..    





			
				freemotion said:
			
		

> Can you give us some ideas as to what brand of minerals will have the proper copper so I can harrass the local feed stores into ordering it?


I'm working on something as we speak, though I'm not entirely sure it'll ever be available commercially...  Me and a handful of other goatfolk in the area are gonna be doing a little guinea piggin, and the formula is still being tweaked a bit.


In the meantime, I'd probably recommend Sweetlix.  They have one called "Meat Maker" for goats.  It's a red mineral, but the label reads "..., Iron Oxide (as a coloring agent), ..." and also lists ferrous sulfate, which is used in humans to battle anemia.  Just the fact that they made mention of Iron Oxide only being there for color would seem to indicate that they've got their heads screwed on pretty straight.

Sweetlix also contains copper _sulfate_, and is mixed 2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus (precaution for urinary calculi).  




The custom mix guy I'm talking to actually chuckled when I asked whether they used copper oxide or copper sulfate and said they didn't even _own_ a bag of copper oxide.  He said they use either copper sulfate or copper _chelate_ -- which I'd never heard of...or both, in some mixes.

They don't mess around, and the best part is..._they're local_!  

But...like I said...if you had to pester your feedstore in the meantime, I'd pester them for Sweetlix.  I've heard good things about it and, based on the label, it appears to be a MUCH superior product to most of what's out there.


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## lilhill (Aug 20, 2009)

I use both Sweetlix and Meat Makers and have had good results with them.  I've also fed CalfManna to a black doe, along with BoSe injections that was getting the "rusty" look on her legs and she's now gorgeously BLACK.  (Is "gorgeously" even a word?)


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> I use both Sweetlix and Meat Makers and have had good results with them.


I've heard the same from a few other folks, but I've only recently started really looking into minerals..  I always knew they were important, of course, but mineral -- for a lot of folks -- seems to be one of those things that takes a back burner to grain and hay and worming and so forth..

I basically made sure and got one with copper on the label, set it out, and forgot about it without ever really looking into what I was setting out or how much good it was doing.

As such, I'm beginning to see mineral deficiencies.



			
				lilhill said:
			
		

> I've also fed CalfManna to a black doe, along with BoSe injections that was getting the "rusty" look on her legs and she's now gorgeously BLACK.  (Is "gorgeously" even a word?)


See, that's the hard thing about minerals..  Lots of deficiencies tend to manifest themselves in the same ways.  

For instance, I hit one of our red-legged black does with copper and BoSe at the same time...she chewed up her copper, so I wasn't sure how much good it did.  Before long, though, she was back to black and her tail filled back out.  I had no way of knowing whether it was the Selenium or the copper..

Based on what you said, I'd have guessed it may have been the Selenium...BUT...I hit another fishtailed, red-legged black doe with Selenium only and she still has her fishtail and red legs..  I hit her with copper and she chewed it up, too (daggone $1.99 plastic calf balling guns...  )..  She perked up, because I'm pretty sure the copper cleared a few barberpoles....but she's still red.

This weekend, though....hehehee....
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





....

Suffice it to say that I just got a box containing two really nice balling guns I ordered from Valley Vet, and they've all gotta be on the stanchion for hoof trimming anyway, so the new balling guns will get a thorough field test..  

The ones who chewed their copper are getting it again, and they by golly won't chew it up this time..  These balling guns have metal shafts and flexible tube heads, so they'll be going to the hilt, plunged, and held until I hear a reluctant "GULP" sound.  

Also, everybody who didn't get selenium will get it now, and I'm probably going to FAMACHA everybody and worm as needed.  Probably some B-complex for a couple, too, just because.

Should be fun times.


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## lilhill (Aug 20, 2009)

You know, now that you mentioned it, every time I go in to the CoOp or feed store for minerals, it's always on the very top shelf and dusty.  Evidently, lots of folks around here don't use it or use the blocks which, for goats, is almost like using nothing.  Who would want to take a chance on something like that while possibly breaking their goats' teeth in the process.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

Yep..  I'd hazard a guess that it's among the most important things which are widely and routinely neglected in raising goats....or livestock in general, for that matter.

The common wisdom is that goats will eat mineral whenever they need mineral, but I'm not so sure about that now.  I know we've had mineral sit in the barn for an eternity with nobody seeming to have touched it for months, but when you finally take a wild hair and replace it with fresh mineral, they go nuts and knock each other out of the way to get at it.

I'm going to try a new tack once I get better mineral..

I'm going to try to figure out how much mineral they'll use in a certain interval -- a week, maybe -- and provide only that much at that interval.  My guess is that mineral probably gets soiled as quickly as anything else would get soiled if it sat, free choice, in the barn at head (and butt) level for more than a day or two.  

For instance...what would a bucket of water look like after a month in the goat barn?  Would they consume it?

No way..  Now that I'm really examining the issue, I'd say mineral is much the same.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 20, 2009)

I actually give my goats new minerals every day. I'm currently using Purina Goat Mineral.  I only give them about a tablespoon full. They always eat some but there is always some left in the morning and it is always clumpy. I clean out the mineral dish really good and then put the new stuff in. I have no idea if they eat enough of it or not. At least half of it is always gone.


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## lilhill (Aug 20, 2009)

That stuff is so expensive (maybe why more people aren't using it) that I give them what they can finish in a day.  If they finish the morning ration by evening, I refill the pans.  It's so humid here, you have to be careful or the minerals will "liquify".  The bucks will waste most of theirs, so for those boys, they get a good pinch in their feed pans every feeding.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

I think most folks -- myself included -- have traditionally just "put out mineral" and let it go at that with the idea that the goats will use it when they need it.

I don't think they do, though..

I do know they attack it when you put it out fresh, but my question then would be...if you put it out fresh everyday, would they attack it everyday?  And if so, is mineral designed to be used that way, or is it designed to be put out and forgotten? 

In other words...if you refresh a goat's mineral everyday, and they attack it everyday, could they wind up getting _too much_ mineral?

I might -- might -- be able to speak with someone soon who can answer these questions..  

I'll keep y'all posted.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 20, 2009)

Thats a very interesting though CM, I know with the horses I put out the salt block and they just use it at their own leisure... most of the time it is ignored (unfortunately our boarder is biting chunks off it, so I'm going to have to get another one when she leaves).


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## lupinfarm (Aug 20, 2009)

Perhaps, CM, Goats are like cats...

If you leave a dish of cat food out, the cats won't eat it after a while as the oils dry up. Cats will go nuts over fresh cat food, but not over left out cat food. 

The appeal of the mineral is gone when left too long?


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

As I'm sure we all know, goats can be extremely picky when they want to be.  Thinking back, I know I've seen them sniff around at mineral just like they sniff around and balk at a feed pan someone just sneezed at or put a hoof in for 0.038 seconds...they're done with it.  If it's the least bit contaminated, they're finished.  They may even balk at that feed pan next time around, too, if you don't wash it out.

I guess I never really associated that with loose mineral left out too long, mostly because I never thought much about mineral beyond "they have mineral."  What are the chances, in all the time it sits out in most folks' barns, that an errant goat _wouldn't_ back right up to it and get a few pee dribbles in there?  What are the chances it _wouldn't_ get stepped or sneezed or spit in?  

Nill.  Zilch.  Zip.  Nada.  It's gonna happen, likely sooner than later.

Question is...do mineral makers design their product to be set out fresh every day like feed and water, or do they design it to be set out to be soiled and subsequently used only when the animal feels it's absolutely necessary for survival?

I dunno..  Something tells me it's probably a goldilocks deal where you have to consider your individual goats, your soil, your baled and fresh forages, your bagged feeding arrangements, blah blah blah.

Ya know...more good ol' regular goat stuff.  

ETA:  What I do know is that if your mineral formula is heavy on inextricably bound compounds, it probably doesn't matter how much or how often, because they're not getting what they need either way.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 20, 2009)

I think it really is a "if they feel they need it they will take it" your feed, hay, forage, soil, all should be taken into account and I know that horse nutrionists take all that into consideration when planning for minerals and supplements for horses, why not for goats? Because we don't think of it. Everyones land, feed, pasture, and hay is different. Mine might contain more copper than yours, or yours than mine which could ultimately affect the amount of minerals the goats feel they need.

If it helps, most all goat farmers and sheep farmers near to me it seems use the block because their goats and sheep are out 24/7 365 and the block doesn't melt randomly or get mysteriously hard (because it already is LOL). I'm almost certain I saw a goat block at TSC once, hmm..

I spoke to a goat breeder from the Caldeon area who is sending me instructions and pictures of a loose mineral feeder she made for her goats  She breeds myotonic goats and pygmies!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

The mineral feeder wouldn't happen to be a plastic drum with a head hole in one side and an eye bolt for a hanger at the top edge of the opposite side, would it?

If not...that's another good one.  

The thing can basically rotate 360*, and the wind catches the head hole and pushes it around to the other side, out of the weather..  Also, since the eye bolt is connected opposite the head hole, the entire thing is tipped such that the head hole is always sorta cocked downward which keeps vertical rain from filling it up.

It's pure genius, really, which should make it pretty clear that it's NOT my idea.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 20, 2009)

That sounds cool too, I have no idea LOL She's emailing me now. 

I was horrified to hear people on the EMG forums say that goats love things like marshmellows and frenchfries. I wouldn't even feed myself marshmellows, MY RACCOONS don't even like marshmellows (much to my dismay).


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## cmjust0 (Aug 20, 2009)

Yikes..

Depending on what they're fried in, it may be against federal law to feed a goat french fries.

Feeding animal products to ruminants is a big no-no....which, incidentally, is why I kinda go  when I see someone talk about using Red Cell on this forum.  All kinds of ruminant products in Red Cell...that's why it's only to be used for horses.

Yeah...horses....that's the ticket.   


Sorry...I got a little bit off topic there..  Back to the regularly scheduled mineral discussion..


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## lupinfarm (Aug 20, 2009)

We make our own fries and bake them


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## Roll farms (Aug 20, 2009)

Sort of off-topic, but...on the Red Cell...?
Not long after I started w/ goats it was a "no-no" b/c they used animal products in it, and Mad Cow disease was all the rage...
(That's why it says on the jug now, "Contains no beef products")
A few years later my vet told me they'd reformulated it (for that reason) and that it was one of the best things to get anemic and low-copper goats back up to par.
My vet is verrry good at goat medicine, btw.  
I've been using it again for about 5 yrs whenever a black-coated doe turns red or one's eyelids go pale, and it does work wonders for us.
Not saying that it's all that and a bag of chips or for everyone, but it's not the devil, either.
It's helped me save lives.
JMHO...not looking for an argument.


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## freemotion (Aug 20, 2009)

Great info.  I'd used Red Cell once, many years (....er....decades....) ago with a horse and when I saw what was in it, I was pretty horrified to be feeding that to an herbivore.  Glad to know they've changed the formula.

Tonight I looked at my doe...reddish thighs....now I don't know if she is supposed to be all black!  Thanks a lot, now I will be obsessing and inspecting her every five minutes!  I was leading her across the yard to milk her, and then it was getting dark, and I didn't get a chance to go inspect my truly black pygmy-x.....first thing tomorrow morning.


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## currycomb (Aug 20, 2009)

i use the manna pro goat mineral, a handful in the feed couple times a week. when they were up in barn getting ready for 4-H show, mixed red cell with feed, they loved it, and really blossomed. put a little of the minerals out daily and just a couple goats went wild for the minerals, but after about 4 days they slacked off. plus they were dewormed 3 times in 6weeks, had tapeworms, used liquid panacur, which i can use on my rabbits, foals, and goats. then levasole for the nasty worms, then again 2weeks later. must have done em some good, took grand champion dairy doe, sold 2 does and their kids at fair and 2 more doelings after fair for pretty good money.


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 20, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I think most folks -- myself included -- have traditionally just "put out mineral" and let it go at that with the idea that the goats will use it when they need it.
> 
> I don't think they do, though..
> 
> ...


I've noticed this behavior in my goats too and was curious.  I did switch brands, though, so I wondered if maybe the new stuff was just more palatable to them.  Now you have me thinking.


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## freemotion (Aug 21, 2009)

I raised my free-choice feeders, got tired of cleaning nanny berries out of them, and wondering if the damp was damp or pee!  Then I put a step under them that only accomodates one set of feet, not the entire goat, so they would have to be pretty determined and creative to soil it.

But we all know how determined and creative goats can be! 

Now they will eat the loose minerals periodically, not just fresh.  I glance at it every 2-3 days, and it stays the same for days and then the level goes down suddenly.

The block salt is licked daily, they seem to prefer it, and the loose salt disappears quickly when the weather is very hot.  So I provide both, since they can't seem to get enough from the block when it is very hot out.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 24, 2009)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Sort of off-topic, but...on the Red Cell...?
> Not long after I started w/ goats it was a "no-no" b/c they used animal products in it, and Mad Cow disease was all the rage...
> (That's why it says on the jug now, "Contains no beef products")
> A few years later my vet told me they'd reformulated it (for that reason) and that it was one of the best things to get anemic and low-copper goats back up to par.


That is excellent information..  I didn't know it was reformulated.  

I know they carry it at my local feedmill, so I may have to pick some up next time I'm in there...just to have it on hand, if nothing else.



			
				rf said:
			
		

> My vet is verrry good at goat medicine, btw.
> I've been using it again for about 5 yrs whenever a black-coated doe turns red or one's eyelids go pale, and it does work wonders for us.
> Not saying that it's all that and a bag of chips or for everyone, but it's not the devil, either.
> It's helped me save lives.
> JMHO...not looking for an argument.


What's your dosage on red cell?


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## cmjust0 (Aug 24, 2009)

Just FYI...I noticed that Kent is making an on-label loose mineral for goats ..  If you look at the product label, it contains copper, iron, zinc, and manganese sulfates, which should indicate a high level of bioavailability.  Plus, it's balanced 2:1, Ca for urinary calculi prevention.  

Looks like a good goat mineral to me.


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## Griffin's Ark (Aug 24, 2009)

CM I am using 30 ml of Red Cell per adult goat and usually 20ml for kids over 25lbs.  Anybody that is sick gets red cell along with anything else they need.  It has been the best thinkg that I have done this year.  I would much rather learn here than the old fashioned way... The "another one died today" Method.  This mineral bandwagon is one I need to jump on now though.  Get 'em healthy and keep 'em healthy.  If I charged myself minimum wage for what I do all day with goats I would be broke!


Chris


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## lupinfarm (Aug 24, 2009)

May as well say, my goat mineral is actually dairy cow mineral and it is brown/gray and really nice stuffs! ...


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## cmjust0 (Aug 25, 2009)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> CM I am using 30 ml of Red Cell per adult goat and usually 20ml for kids over 25lbs.


A single dose, or do you hit them with 20 or 30ml for several days in a row?

I ask because I think I read somewhere a long time ago that the common adult dosage was 15ml/day for a solid week...or something like that, I really can't remember.  

 



			
				griff said:
			
		

> I would much rather learn here than the old fashioned way... The "another one died today" Method.


Me too.  

Hey...lemme ask you this...with as much copper as their is in Red Cell, and with copper being a natural anthelmintic, do you reckon the pink that comes back to their eye has anything to do with the Red Cell maybe _deworming_ the goat as well as replenishing some lost iron?  Just curious..  

I'd love to see someone do an FEC, then hit a goat with Red Cell, then do another FEC and see if it drops..  Bet it would.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 25, 2009)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> May as well say, my goat mineral is actually dairy cow mineral and it is brown/gray and really nice stuffs! ...


Sounds nice...  Care to share the make and model with us?


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## Roll farms (Aug 25, 2009)

I've got a skinny nub w/ pale eyelids I've been giving 15-20 ml...3 days in a row, then I'll check her eyelids again in a week and continue as needed.
I ALSO gave her valbazen 3 days in a row.
I don't think they'd absorb the copper fast enough to ALSO act as a dewormer (at least not as fast as I'd like), but I do know if you KEEP the copper levels up, they don't get as wormy.  She was the smallest doe in the pen this summer, therefore didn't get as much access to the mineral feeder / top dressed feed as the fat chicks did.
She's the only one from that pen w/ pale eyelids.

For what it's worth, our mineral is red, and I haven't been able to find a better one so I add kelp to their feed, and copper sulfate to their water and mix it in w/ the mineral.  Started that last year w/ good results.  I do it 2 mos. on, 2 mos. off and watch their coats...hair LOSS would help indicate toxicity.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm not sure exactly how copper kills worms..  By that, I mean does the copper act on the worm from the outside in, or from the inside out?  Like...when the copper hits the exterior body of the worm as it passes through the GI, does the worm die, or does the copper get absorbed from the GI into the bloodstream, then into the worm through the blood, thereby killing the worm from the inside out?  

I have a suspicion that it's an inside-out, through the blood kind of a deal, but I'm not sure..

My suspicion came from some reading I was doing on copper toxicity..  I've known for a long time that copper was stored in the liver, but I had no clue how/when it was released..  Then I read that sheep -- not goats, but close -- are apparently prone to release a bunch of copper from the liver under stress, which can precipitate acute copper toxicity -- even though they may have been consuming elevated levels of copper for a long time!  It seems that they literally store fatal amounts of copper in the liver, then dump it all at once and die.  Smart, huh?

Anyway, one of the stressors mentioned was pregnancy!  Apparently, lots of chronic copper toxic goats go acute during pregnancy and kick the bucket...  

I found that to be very, very interesting.

Reason being, it's been widely accepted for years that goats are prone to 'hold' worms while they're pregnant, then begin shedding a blue million directly after parturition..  Well, anybody knows that you can't "hold" a worm, given that worms have life spans and cycles like anything else..  I suspect they're pretty much either there sucking blood and making eggs to be passed out in the feces, or they aren't there...that's an assumption, of course, but it's one I feel pretty confident about.

Now, if stress causes a goat -- like sheep -- to release copper, and pregnancy is just such a stressor, then perhaps it makes sense that the blood copper levels are elevated during pregnancy...to give copper to the fetuses, perhaps, I dunno...which gives her super parasite resistance while gestating.

Anyway...so, yeah.  

Almost forgot where I was going with this  but the point is that my suspicion tends toward copper killing worms from the inside out, through the blood they're ingesting.

So....there's a theory for ya.

Now I've just gotta figure out why I just wrote all that..  I'm sure it was in response to something in a really roundabout way, but at the moment...no clue.



I've either had too much caffeine today, or not enough..can't decide which.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 25, 2009)

And animal *can* "hold" worms, CM, they form in cysts in the gut and can camp out for a period of time until the conditions are right for them to explode into a fury of worms, you see this a lot in horses.


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## lupinfarm (Aug 25, 2009)

OH also, I'll have to see if I can find the bag from my mineral... I put the mineral in a tote box for storage because my cat kept trying to eat it LOL. I put friggen everything in tote boxes or garbage bins. My kitchen is filled with different types of feed right now because the EE chicks are taking up my feed store in the chicken coop, and I have no feed store for goat or horse feed (I think I need to build a feed house?)

I know it's by Purina, and it's a high quality Dairy mix.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 25, 2009)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> And animal *can* "hold" worms, CM, they form in cysts in the gut and can camp out for a period of time until the conditions are right for them to explode into a fury of worms, you see this a lot in horses.


Well, dang..  Did a little more research (...always more research...) and found that female barberpole worms are sensitive to hormone changes in pregnant does, which leads to massive amounts of eggs being shed just about the time the kid hits the ground...ya know...so the kid can die of worms.

Awesome.

Blows my theory all to crap...back to square one for me, I suppose.

Glad you made me do the legwork, though...now I'm just a tiny bit smarter than I was a few minutes ago, and it's all your fault.  



I will eventually figure out exactly how copper kills worms.  I have to know....it's a borderline obsession at this point..


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## lupinfarm (Aug 25, 2009)

Hahahaha...

Also, moms can pass routine worms on to the baby through her milk. If left untreated the worms can actually implant themselves in the boob and jump off at any time. At that point, I believe the worms are untreatable because they have implanted in the flesh.


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## lilhill (Aug 25, 2009)

That's why one of the first things I do after the kids are born and they are taken care of, is worm the doe.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 25, 2009)

Worming the day after kidding is the common wisdom, but now that I read about the periparturient hormone changes causing the worm to produce a ton of eggs...almost makes you wonder if we shouldn't be thinking of ways to worm the doe just _before_ she kids...to kill the worms before they can produce all those eggs! 

The phenomenon itself is called a _peri_parturient rise -- not _post_parturient rise...peri meaning, "around the time of"..  As in, sometime around kidding, but not necessarily before or after.  What I read indicated that the hormone related to the rise of FEC was prolactin, which (as the name suggests) is the hormone that stimulates lactation...  

That said, a doe could be shedding thousands upon thousands of eggs in the days leading up to kidding..  Wonder if a doe 'bagging up' is an indicator of when the worms are going into overdrive?



Wow...how'd we get _here_ in this topic?


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## Roll farms (Aug 25, 2009)

Just ...umm...food for thought...?

I've never understood it as "copper kills worms" so much as "a healthy goat w/ good copper levels, is less likely to be susceptable to a heavy worm load."

Kinda like how the young / weak / old humans get sick when "healthy" adults who eat well / exercise don't, type-thing.

I worm mine 7 days before they kid, and again the day after they kid, IF I know they're one of the "worm-prone" ones.   
That's got a lot to do w/ the fact that I milk mine...they don't need ANYthing else pulling them down after giving birth and having to produce milk.

But my way of thinking has always been to worm before they can dump the load, postpartum.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 26, 2009)

There have been several studies done on using copper oxide wire particles as a straight-up anthelmintic, and the results are always the same...fecal egg counts of barberpoll worms goes way down within just a few days.  Every study I've read says it's an effective anthelmintic, but to be careful, and only use it as part of an overall worm plan, blah blah blah..  Makes sense, I guess.

I'm thinking you're right about blood/liver copper too, though..  I think you can probably hit a goat with a little copper and kill some worms right off the bat, but if the goat's copper levels are chronically low, the worms are going to come right back..  

What I'm dying to know is _how_ copper kills barberpoll worms..  

Something else I'd love to see is a fecal egg count of barberpolls before and after about a week of Red Cell..  Somebody (coughcoughGRIFFENScoughARKcoughcough) should totally step up and volunteer to do that and report back.

  


Worming does pre-parturition sounds to me like the way to go..  I think we'll probably do that next time around.


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## Griffin's Ark (Aug 27, 2009)

I hate counting eggs... Let me see if I can fire up the microscope that hooks to my computer and I will upload the pictures.  Oh and here is a link to a doctoral thesis on the effectiveness of cowp on barber pole worms.

http://etd.lsu.edu/docs/available/etd-0709103-153221/unrestricted/Watkins_thesis.pdf

I didn't read this one, but it looks informative.

I have an autentic case of bottle jaw right now on a Paint Boer.  I have thrown the medicine cabinet at him.  Now he is going to be served Red Cell twice a day for a week @15ml per feeding.  I will follow him around this afternoon and get some goat berries and will attemp to float some eggs later.

Chris


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## cmjust0 (Aug 28, 2009)

Hey gang...stare at this a while.







You might want to take a dramamine or something...


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## lupinfarm (Aug 28, 2009)

Oh geez.

CM, You've done it again.. completely and utterly confused the heck out of me.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 28, 2009)

Kinda looks like something a cat would throw up, doesn't it?

Keep in mind that I looked at it, blinked a few times, glazed over, and promptly had a seizure.




Well, ok, I didn't _actually_ have a seizure, but I did begin to tremble a lil bit..


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## freemotion (Aug 28, 2009)

Looks cool, where did you find it?  On a website?  I want more!


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## Beekissed (Aug 28, 2009)

Any folks use kelp meal for minerals?


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## Griffin's Ark (Aug 31, 2009)

I have decided to take the big copper step.  I am going to get some Copasure and some gel caps and start making my own bolus' for the goats (and sheep).  It is kind of expensive for the single application of killing Barber pole worms, but in the long run I think it will pay off.

Chris


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2009)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> I have decided to take the big copper step.  I am going to get some Copasure and some gel caps and start making my own bolus' for the goats (and sheep).  It is kind of expensive for the single application of killing Barber pole worms, but in the long run I think it will pay off.
> 
> Chris


It's not as big a step as you'd think, actually..  I was kinda nervous about putting that much copper in a goat until I did more reading about copper oxide's near-zero bioavailability..  That much copper sulfate would almost certainly kill one dead, but with copper oxide, very little of it gets to the goat at any given time..  That's a good thing...builds in a good margin for error.

Case in point...I personally know some folks who cram an entire 12.5g calf bolus into every goat in their herd, once a year...  If the kids are big enough to physically handle the bolus (50lb+, maybe?), they get a whole bolus.  

Sounds nuts, I know, but I also know it to be a fact..  They've been doing it for years, and had never split a capsule to dose it out...I know that for a fact, too, because they thought the COWP 'needles' were the length of the giant calf bolus..  Not so..  They were quite surprised to learn that they were, in fact, tiny little short "needles"..  

If you read up on some of the studies, it apparently doesn't make much difference in terms of egg-counts whether you give a few grams or 10 grams...  When I bolused ours this past Sunday, everybody got 4.5g regardless of weight (everybody's 100+, if just barely) in a 000-sized gelcap..  Reason being, 4.5g is the supposed dosage for 100lbs, and it also happens to fill a 000 gelcap solid.  

That was good enough for me.  Your mileage may vary.


Also.....if I could make one suggestion to help make your life a little easier...   

Get yourself one of these ..  

Yeah, it's $20 vs. the $2 you'd pay for a plastic calf balling gun, but the plastic ones won't hold a goat-sized bolus worth a damn..  Plus, even if you manage to get the bolus and the plastic gun crammed down the goat's neck far enough to prevent it from spitting/chewing the med, she's liable to bite down and crack the gun in half...then where are ya?  You're left trying to fish a broken plastic balling gun out of a goat's throat, jagged end first..  

Not fun.

I actually own the model I linked to and it's FRICKEN AWESOME.  You drop the pill way down into the *flexible* (rubber/plastic/polyethylene? ) tube, cram that baby WAY back in there (without the worry of scraping their throat/palate), and if they bite down...oh well.  It's metal.  

They WILL take their pills with this balling gun..  It's priceless, so far as I'm concerned..  And from the looks of it, I'm fairly certain it's the last one I'll ever have to buy.

Valley Vet carries Copasure, too...it's $3.50 higher than Jeffers, but if you combine the balling gun with the Copasure, freight's free and you're in way high cotton for just about $60..  

Anyhow....just a suggestion.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 2, 2009)

Ok, I hope this hasn't been asked and I just missed it somewhere. I use Raglands Goat Builder 20% in the loose mineral form in their grain every day plus I have the same block available at all times. The copper in this is copper sulfate. Now, the iron is ferrous sulfate AND iron oxide. It is red-tinged brown. Do ya'll think this is OK? I mean, I'm assuming the iron oxide is for the coloring of the product. But it is more brown than red so....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> Ok, I hope this hasn't been asked and I just missed it somewhere. I use Raglands Goat Builder 20% in the loose mineral form in their grain every day plus I have the same block available at all times. The copper in this is copper sulfate. Now, the iron is ferrous sulfate AND iron oxide. It is red-tinged brown. Do ya'll think this is OK? I mean, I'm assuming the iron oxide is for the coloring of the product. But it is more brown than red so....


ETA:  I just realized that this may be more like the loose form of a protein tub, and I'm not familiar enough with protein tubs to know whether or not they can effectively double as mineral..


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## broke down ranch (Sep 2, 2009)

I stopped by the feed store just a bit ago to see what all it has and the breakdown of each as far as %'s and ppm. And I think we're OK. This is what's in them (the loose mineral and the block have the same ingredients, just different forms):

Crude Protein: 20%
Crude Fat (min): 2%
Crude Fiber (max): 7%
Calcium (min): 2%
Calcium (max): 3%
Phosporus (min):1%
Salt (min): 17%
Salt (max): 20%
Potassium (min): 1%
Magnesium (min): .75%
Cobalt (min): 25 ppm
Copper (min): 65 ppm
Iodine (min): 50 ppm
Iron (Fe) (min): 1000 ppm
Manganese (min): 850 ppm
Selenium (min): 5 ppm
Zinc (min): 850 ppm
Vit A (min): 50,000 units per lb
Vit D3 (min): 10,000 units per lb
Vit E (min): 100 units per lb


Oh, forgot to add that the iron oxide is the next to last ingredient.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

Those numbers are low...more like feed numbers than mineral numbers.  You'd expect to see something north of 750ppm for copper in a good goat mineral, for instance..  I've seen goat mineral as high as 1850ppm copper, in fact..  Never will you see a crude protein content in a true mineral mix, either..

I'm not saying it's bad...I'm saying it almost looks like a feed/mineral hybrid, which could very well be what a protein tub is supposed to be.  That said, 65ppm copper might be just about right if they're consuming 10-15x the amount of it that they would be of a straight-up mineral..  If a goat consumed 10x the amount of a mineral in a day than the mineral makers expected it would, _that_ could be really bad too..

If you set this out free choice, does it disappear pretty quickly?  I'm guessing it's sweet, to encourage them to eat it...unlike mineral, which should be salty to sorta naturally limit the amount of it they'll take at any given time.

All in all,  ..  I'm just speculating here...again, no personal experience with grainerals...or mineroteins...or whatever you'd call it.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 2, 2009)

No, they don't like it very much. Sometimes I see them licking the block but not very often. On the block it says the salt is supposed to help discourage them eating too much....? I dunno....lol


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## cmjust0 (Sep 17, 2009)

Picked up a new mineral the other day..  It's a custom blend designed jointly by two goat specialists at two universities here, formulated specifically for dry or early-bred does on pasture and consuming baled forages from this area, and which also get very little -- if any -- grain..

That's pretty much a description of our primary herd at this point, save for the wether who runs with them.  

Frankly, I'd like to see a few of the numbers a little higher (specifically copper, zinc, selenium,  & Vit. E) but all the ingredients are highly bioavailable...like, not only copper sulfate, but copper _chelate_, etc...

And it's brown.  

What's even neater is that you can actually see the little flecks of this and that...blue copper sulfate...clear salt crystals...pretty cool indeed.  Oh, and for some reason, it smells _just like_ Kent brand show goat feed.



When I dumped the old red sandy crap out of the mineral feeder and replaced it with this, fights broke out.  No kidding.  They were pushing and shoving and ramming each other, wedging their heads in the bucket trying to get at the mineral..  Keep in mind that there are only nine goats in this particular pasture, but they drank about *4 gallons* of water immediately afterward.  

I may have a chat with the guys who came up with the blend and see if it would be good/bad to mess around with it a little bit...more copper, more zinc, more selenium and E, a little less magnesium (to make it more wether-safe), etc..

For now, though, I'm VERY pleased with the way this mineral looks and smells and the way the goats are using it.  Too early to tell if it'll do them much good, of course, but...so far, so good.


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## freemotion (Sep 17, 2009)

So, are you gonna tell us how to get it???


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## CathyK (Sep 17, 2009)

I have used Mary's mineral mix-I  have dairy goats. Long article but worth the read.  This was posted on Shady Land Dairy goat page. (http://www.sandylanedairygoats.com/goatminerals.htm)

Here is info on the goat minerals we feed, if you would like Mary's contact info, email me at goathappy@gmail.com We are dealers, but it is cheaper to buy the minerals strait from Mary. This is a long article, but well worth the read.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMAXI-MIN CAPRINE MINERAL

FOR GOAT OWNERS WHO DEMAND THE BEST.

AT LAST, THERE IS A MINERAL SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR YOUR HARD-WORKING DAIRY GOATS. ( YES, IT WILL WORK GREAT FOR MEAT GOATS , TOO. AFTER ALL, THOSE DOES NEED THE BEST NUTRITION PROVIDING FOR THEIR FAST- GROWINGKIDS!)

MARY KELLOGG HAS 35 YEARS OF DAIRY GOAT KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. NOW,WITH THE EXPERT ASSISTANCE OF DR. STEVE HART OF LANGSTON UNIVERSITY , A MINERAL HAS BEEN FORMULATED TO PROVIDE OPTIMAL NUTRITIONAL SUPPORT. MARY KELLOGG AND THE MINRULAX COMPANY DEVELOPED THE VERY FIRST MINERAL (that we are aware of) MADE SPECIALLY FOR DAIRY GOATS IN THE US OVER 30 YEARS AGO!

IF YOU ARE FEEDING A MULTI-SPECIES MINERAL, YOUR GOATS ARE BEINGROBBED OF SOME VERY IMPORTANT MINERALS. IF YOUR GOATS ARE BEING ROBBEDNUTRITIONALLY, SO ARE YOU ! NONE OF THE MINERALS I FOUND ON THE MARKET ADDRESS THE ADDITIONAL COBALT NEEDS OF THE DAIRY GOAT, ESPECIALLY TOGGENBURGS AND LA MANCHAS.

MOST MIXES ON THE MARKET ARE DEFICIENT IN MANY ESSENTIAL MINERALS. SOFAR, I HAVE FOUND NONE WHICH CONTAIN OPTIMAL LEVELS OF VIT. A,D, E , THE B COMPLEX, AND COBALT. ALL OF THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE SYNERGISTIC----IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERYTHING IS BALANCED.

ALSO , THE CALCIUM PHOSPHORUS RATIOS ARE WRONG. THE IDEAL IS 1.2:1, not 2:1. WHY ARE THEY ALL USING THE 2: 1 RATIO? BECAUSE PHOSPHORUS IS EXPENSIVE, THAT'S WHY! NOT because that is the correct ratio.

This mineral is made with the BEST ingredients we currently haveavailable, NOT the cheapest! It is not perfect, because there is just too much that is still unknown, but we are working on it, with the assistance of our "girls" and the other breeders who are generously providing feed-back!

ONE MINERAL CANNOT POSSIBLY PROVIDE ADEQUATE MINERAL LEVELS FOR SEVERAL SPECIES OF ANIMAL ! JUST THINK ABOUT IT, AND DO SOME RESEARCH.

Without cobalt, Vitamins C, K , and the Bs cannot be synthesized.Without adequate cobalt, copper cannot be utilized. (This is why many have found that the copper boluses did not work well, or at all! ) This are justa FEW of the relationships that are integral to how the body works. (Yep, ours too!) Our best source of cobalt is MILK! The girls cannot give it to us if they are not getting it!

When doing research, I found a definite link confirmed in studies between copper deficiency and aneurysms. This probably explains why I lost a 2year old and a 4 year old last spring to aneurysms. One friend lost 2 bucks during breeding season ,and another friend lost a yearling doe. These animals all appeared to be in good shape physically, but all were showing signs of copper deficiency. (Bald spot on tails, "rusty" black, white hairs in Toggs, etc.)

PLEASE do NOT give this mineral to animals that have had copperboluses for at least 4 months after administering the bolus. We do not know if itwould be safe, or create toxic levels of copper.

PLEASE LET US KNOW ABOUT CONSUMPTION RATES AND PALATABILITY. THIS IS A "WORK IN PROGRESS" AND WE MAY ADJUST THE FORMULA SOMEWHAT AS TIMEPASSES.

IF YOUR GOATS "DEVOUR" THE MINERAL WHEN YOU BEGIN TO FEED IT, THEN YOU KNOW THAT THEY WERE CERTAINLY VERY DEFICIENT IN ESSENTIALS! (Mother Natureseems to have equipped her creatures within an innate knowledge of what theyneed for health.) If they do this, we suggest adding one part of fine, NON-IODIZED salt to 4 or 5 parts mineral for the first month or so. Salt can easily be found at a feed store. Some goats have been verysuspicious of this "new" feed for a while, others have no hesitation. If they are hesitant, I have found that "eating" the mineral myself, with appropriate chomping and lip-smacking noises, often works!

WE ARE CONTINUING TO RESEARCH THE BEST BIOAVAILABLE FORMS OF MINERALS AND VITAMINS. THERE WILL ALSO BE HERBALS AND CHELATES IN A PLUS FORMULA WEARE WORKING ON FOR THE FUTURE TO ENHANCE YOUR GOATS HEALTH---AND YOURS!This is as natural as we can make it. We cannot use organic oils like coconut or soy, due to rancidity problems and possible changes in consumptionrates. If no oil was used , there would be a serious problem with the dispersionrates of the heavier and lighter minerals , which would settle out, or rise, during transport. there would also be dust, which could cause lungproblems. Changes in dispersion could cause very serious problems with the minerals like cobalt, selenium, and copper toxicity.

THERE WILL BE NO SALT OR FILLER ADDED TO OUR MINERAL. IF YOU NEED TO (OR CHOOSE TO) ADD SALT TO LIMIT CONSUMPTION IN SELF-FEEDERS, YOU CAN DO THAT VERY CHEAPLY BY ADDING IT YOURSELF! SALT LEVELS IN 3 OF THE MOST POPULAR MINERALS ARE FROM 18.2% - 45% (RESEARCH IT YOURSELFON-LINE).-----SHIPPED TO YOU AS PART OF YOUR MINERAL. If you figure out the actual cost of the other minerals without the salt, you will be shocked. (I certainlywas !)

YOU WILL GET MORE FOR YOUR MONEY WITH OUR MINERAL. (Bear in mind that the salt level affects the amount of mineral your goat isgetting---400 ppm of something contained within mineral that is 45% salt means your animal gets just over HALF that amount! (If of course, they are willing to eat that much salt! Most goats are smart enough not to eat that muchsalt. How would you like a tablespoon of salt with your vitamin pill?)

I BOUGHT ONE "MINERAL" SUPPLEMENT THAT WAS MORE THAN 75% FILLER!---SALT, SOYBEAN MEAL, AND WHEAT HULLS MEANT THAT THE DOES HAD TO EAT AT LEAST6-8 OZ. PER DAY TO GET EVEN A PART OF THE REQUIRED MINERALS! At $ 27.00 per bag, I was paying $20.25 for less than 13 lb. of actual mineral! That means that 50 lb. of mineral cost more than $81.00 ! What made it worse isthat copper levels were totally inadequate, as were several other essentials, like cobalt!

YOU NEED TO REALLY READ THE LABEL! If you cannot figure out what it all means , ask your local animal extension specialist or a nutritionist for help. Just be cautious, as some will use cow or sheep requirements--and often , the chart they use is over 30 years old! I suggest looking at the research papers Langston University has done--under the Kika de GarzaGoat Institute online.

SALT COSTS JUST OVER $3.00 FOR 50 LBS. . Wouldn't you rather just add it yourself? We feed both the salt and mineral free choice , so the does can eat what they need. DO NOT USE IODIZED SALT---TOO MUCH IODINE WILLTIE UP ESSENTIALS!

MANGANESE DEFICIENCY IS A RECENTLY DISCOVERED SERIOUS PROBLEM IN PARTS OF OKLAHOMA ,(and I suspect in many other places as well!). DEFICIENCY CAUSES LOWER CONCEPTION RATES, LOWER MILK PRODUCTION, PROBLEMS WITH WEIGHT MAINTENANCE, POST- KIDDING INFECTIONS, DEFORMATION OF FRONT LEGS AND/OR JOINTS IN NEWBORNS, NEURO-CEREBRAL CONNECTION DEFICIENCIES, AND A HOST OF OTHER PROBLEMS. THIS MINERAL ESPECIALLY ADDRESSES THAT PROBLEM.

WE ANTICIPATE THAT CONSUMPTION WILL BE ABOUT 1-1/2 OZ PER ANIMAL PER DAY---THIS IS AN AVERAGE FIGURED FOR 135 POUNDS. SMALL MILKING DOES ARE EXPECTED TO CONSUME ABOUT 1-1/2 OZ. PER DAY, AND KIDS 1/4-1/2 OZ PERDAY.. Of course , this depends upon size, milk production, and feedingpractices. 1-1/2 oz. is about 2 Tablespoons. The cost per doe is in the 6 cents to 14 cents per day range, depending upon where you live, and the shipping charges. A pound of mineral will provide for a small doe for about 10days.

This mineral contains the finest grade of yeast.. This provides optimum levels of those all-important B-complex vitamins that are so importantfor health. It is designed for goats on alfalfa hay and pasture; or alfalfa, pasture, and prairie hay. If you are feeding straight alfalfa (which is NOT good for your goats, as they need the long fibers of grass hay), you may need to offer a hi-phos dairy mineral to be certain they can balancetheir intakes properly. I also keep a mol-mag block ( bloat block or grass tetany block, depending upon where you live) out for the does, as they need more magnesium (wish I knew why!) in the winter. I learned this from afriend of David McKenzie years ago. I called England, as I knew they needed something that was not being provided. I could not figure out why mygoats DEVOURED certain plants and barks at certain times of the year. (You can learn a lot by reading the plant analyses in the back of Goat Husbandry ! ) I learned that magnesium was what they needed, usually starting inOctober! Magnesium deficiency often causes "bowed" front legs. I have seen thismany times in foals, and in yearling goats that are pregnant

Current mineral levels:
Calcium 10%
Phosphorus 8%
Potassium 2%
Magnesium 1%
Sulfur 2%
Iron 2000 ppm
Manganese 5000 ppm
Zinc 8000 ppm
Copper 1250 ppm
Selenium 25 ppm
Cobalt 200 ppm
Iodine 100 ppm
Vit. A 250,000 IU
Vit. D 50,000 IU
Vit. E 400 IU
These calculations were made based on 5-1/2 lb. dry matter consumption for does, consisting of alfalfa and grass hay, and one pound of grain. Therefore , consumption may vary. Most goats need more in the beginning, and then level off in consumption. It is normal if the consumption goes up anddown! Again, I wish I knew why!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FOR EVERY BAG OF MINERAL SOLD, A DONATION WILL BE MADE FOR GOAT MINERAL RESEARCH AT LANGSTON UNIVERSITY . HELP US HELP YOUR GOATS!


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## CathyK (Sep 17, 2009)

For Copper supplement, Kat Drovdahl in Oregon (Fir Meadows) has an amazing copper combination. I have used it with my goats also.
It isn't listed on the page, but if you email her, she can explain what she has. She also raises dairy goats.

http://www.firmeadow.com/

Lots of really interesting  herbal combinations also for your goats and for other animals too.


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## Roll farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Has anyone tried ADM Goat Power mineral?  Item number is 80869AAA.

Has no listing for "iron" content on the label, but ferrous sulfate is an ingredient.
Copper comes from Copper sulfate, (1500 ppm min, 1800 max) so I ordered it, and when I opened the bag I was discouraged to discover...
it is red (reddish anyway).

Also has selenium listed as 18 ppm.

I also ordered some kelp meal (suspected a possible iodine issue last year w/ a kid I sold, wasn't sure if it was her feed or mine...).

They (ADM) also carry a dairy goat concentrate (36%), I ordered 4 bags and will see how they do when I add that to their feed.

My girls always look a little sorry when I'm milking them, and I know that's normal but...darn it, I want them to look GOOD, you know??

Anyway, just want some feedback on ADM in general, if anyone's tried it.

Thanks...


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## ksalvagno (Nov 17, 2009)

Unfortunately I have no experience with ADM but will be very curious how it works out for you. I'm using Purina Goat Mineral and I'm not totally sold on it. But when I look at other mineral contents, they don't seem to be any better. Hadn't checked out ADM though.


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## kimmyh (Nov 17, 2009)

It sounds fine to me, and there is no issue with red. Most of the really good goat minerals are red tinged. As to your girls looking less than desired when you are milking, have you tried adding beet pulp/Calf Manna to their feed program.?


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## Roll farms (Nov 17, 2009)

The does who go down are our most "dairy"...they put EVERYTHING in the bucket, including themselves, sometimes.  
On the same feed, the boers I milk get fatter, the dairy does just go skinny, no matter what I give them....calf manna in the past helped, but not as much as I'd like.  
That's why I wanted to try the dairy goat concentrate I mentioned...


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## cmjust0 (Nov 17, 2009)

Since I started this topic, I've seen some mineral mixes that list something like "Ferric Oxide (for color)" on the ingredients.

For me, the 'red/dead' thing means that red coloration in a mineral mix should prompt the buyer to look a bit more closely at the ingredient tag..  If it lists a bunch of oxides and very few sulfates or chelates, it's probably not that great of a mineral.  "American Stockman Big 6," for instance, is pretty "dead"...cheap, mostly salt, ferric oxide, copper oxide, etc..

However, if a mineral mix is red but contains sulfates and chelates, I would think it's a pretty good bet that it's composed of more highly bioavailable minerals and is only colored red intentionally to avoid customer confusion..  

I mean....imagine being really accustomed to opening bags of red mineral mix, only to open a bag one day and pour out a feed tub full of what looks a whole lot like cement mix..  I think a lot of folks would dump that right back in the bag and call the manufacturer, wondering what the heck broke down at the mineral mixing factory.


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## jlbpooh (Nov 17, 2009)

I have the Manna Goat Minerals and it is brown. It has the AC in it and the Ca ratio is 2:1. I am feeding them free choice minerals, hay, and pasture, and 1/2 cup twice a day of Calf Manna. I have two Nigerian wethers, one is 7 1/2 months (I got him at 6 months old), and the other is 3 1/2 months old (I got him at 8 weeks old). The younger one seems like he may be getting a little chunky on this diet, I have already cut the Calf Manna down a little on him, the older one is doing well on this amount though. Is it OK to let them get just a little chunky for winter? You can still feel his ribs in areas, just not all the way from top to bottom. You can still feel his hip bones well too although there is a little bit of meat on them. They finally finished the first bale of hay last weekend after 8 weeks. Since it has been raining more and is a little cooler in the mornings, they have been eating more hay.


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## Roll farms (Nov 17, 2009)

Calf manna is a pretty rich feed I only give to sick or heavy milking goats.  You're not overfeeding it, but it's just 'more' than what your wethers need, IMHO.

I'd think a good 16% goat feed would be better for them (that has Am.Ch. added to prevent UC).

And maybe offer a bit more hay...they 'need' hay to develop a good rumen, and keep it going.


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## jlbpooh (Nov 17, 2009)

The only reason I started them on the Calf Manna was that TSC didn't have the Purina feeds yet, and I didn't want to have to drive 30 minutes one way to get something other than Dumor. The only other place around here doesn't have pelleted feed and I have had a problem with bugs in the chicken feed so I am assuming the goat feed would have the same problem. I had read that the Calf Manna was good for growing goats. I haven't heard good things about the Dumor for chicken or goat feed. Now that I have a choice, I switched my chickens to Layena. They have been on the Dumor for a few years. Would you recommend the Noble Goat, or the Purina Goat Chow. One of my goats is very good at picking out only what he wants, so I think I have to do the Noble Goat. Or is Purina Goat Chow pelleted? (I thought I read somewhere that is wasn't pelleted, but I don't know.) I need to do my stockup run this coming weekend so I can switch the goat feed too. I am down to about 1/4 of a bag of the Calf Manna, so it would be a good time to start transitioning them. They do have free choice hay (I keep the hay rack filled at all times), and have fat tummies on them every night. They have just been eating in the pasture more than eating the hay. I have noticed the only days they eat a lot of hay is if it is cold in the mornings or if it is raining.


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## Roll farms (Nov 18, 2009)

I'd been feeding our kids the 16% Producer's Pride feed at TSC b/c it was medicated w/ Deccox...and our kids ate it well and grew well on it.  

(Our milkers / adults get a mix I "make" for them...)

I tried the kids on Noble Goat, since it is medicated, and cheaper, and made by Purina, and has a good "rep"....starting the switch over about 3 weeks ago.  
My kids just don't care for it at all.  They were leaving feed in the pan and they've never done that.  It didn't start until I stopped mixing the 2 together and went to the straight Noble Goat.

Now I'm putting a touch of sweet feed and a few kernals of corn in it and they're eating it a little better but I can tell they prefer the PP Deccox feed.

Since they're 9 mos. old and will soon be switched to adult rations, I'll keep this up. 

Hopefully next year, I can start the new crop of kids on the Noble Goat and they'll eat it ok, since they won't have had anything different.  

I think mine are just spoiled....

But I'd imagine your boys will balk at any new feed, since Calf Manna is so 'good'...heck, that stuff smells so tasty, even *I* want to try it sometimes.  

You may have to switch over gradually, adding a little more of the Noble goat ea. time.  (IF that's what you decide to go with...)


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## cmjust0 (Nov 18, 2009)

jlbpooh said:
			
		

> I haven't heard good things about the Dumor for chicken or goat feed.


When we very first started with goats, we used Dumor for a very, very short period of time..  When I opened the very last bag of it that I ever bought, it smelled just exactly like the inside of a dry bourbon barrel..  I mean...some distiller's grain is one thing, but that's a bit ridiculous.  The goats sniffed it and were like "Wait...is this supposed to be _food_?"  Barely would even eat it. 

We use Hallway Goat Developer 16 now, from Farmer's Feed Mill in Lexington KY..  It's 16% protein, mixed 2:1 Ca, and has added ammonium chloride.  It's a really good quality feed, imho..  I pick it up right at the loading dock and....get this...

It's only $7.50 for a 50lb bag.

I know...y'all are jealous, right?   

I just found out yesterday that they make alfalfa pellets in house, too..  Small, "goat sized" pellets, no other additives, and gauranteed 17% minimum protein.  $14 per 50lb bag.  TSC charges the same money for "producer's pride" 14% horse-sized alfalfa pellets with added molasses.  Needless to say, I'll be switching my bucks to that..  (they started needing some supplemental protein, but after a bout of UC in a buck on correctly formulated grain...I'll never grain bucks again)  

Oh...I get 17% layer pellets from Hallway for $11.25, too.


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## Roll farms (Nov 18, 2009)

I get my chicken feed from a local feed mill, they put the oyster shell in it and I just mix it w/ a lil cracked corn and scratch and my birds lay reallllly well.  AND it's cheaper than anything we have at TSC...love that part.

When I've run out (like when their mill caught fire last month and they were out for 2 weeks) I've used Dumor and my egg production went wayyyy down.  That told me enough then that I'm better off w/ the feed mill stuff.

However...their goat feed is WAY overpriced, so I get a lil stuff here, lil stuff there, and mix my own.  
As I learn more, the mix gets better, and the goats look better.

I just really wondered if anyone else had tried ADM feeds / minerals and if so, wanted to hear their input.

Some of our customers LOVE the dumor horse feeds, but the goat and chicken feeds did nothing to impress me...and seem way overpriced.


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