# Pen Size



## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 15, 2013)

What is the minimum size pen for two Alpine does? I have plenty of space, but with the price of wire around here, I can only make it so big. What is the minimum? Depending on the size I will make it bigger then that, of course. Just wondering for a starting point.


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## elevan (Apr 15, 2013)

At least an acre....a half acre would be pushing it.  The more room you can give the happier and healthier they will be.

You can always expand the space over time though.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 16, 2013)

Thank you.  I'll plan on making it about an acre big for now.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 16, 2013)

How many feet in an acre? I just measured where I was thinking the pen can be and it is ~95'x50'= 4732 feet. Also, what type of pasture do goats prefer? I have wooded area, long grass, and regular yard grass.


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## cjhubbs (Apr 16, 2013)

Currently, our goat pen is both in a more "grassy area" and goes back into the woods. Most of the time the goats are out back in the woods unless they are going to or from their barn,  there is snow on the ground or there are "those human things" in the pen  . Goats are browsers, so  for the most part they prefer to be in the woods. Not to mention that Alpines are a Swiss Breed which means they are better suited for cooler weather then hot, meaning that they enjoy shade. I also have read that goats that are kept on open pasture in say a field are more prone to getting worms then those kept in a wooded area. That area sounds plenty large enough for two Alpines, as long as you feed them hay.


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## cjhubbs (Apr 16, 2013)

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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 16, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> Currently, our goat pen is both in a more "grassy area" and goes back into the woods. Most of the time the goats are out back in the woods unless they are going to or from their barn,  there is snow on the ground or there are "those human things" in the pen  . Goats are browsers, so  for the most part they prefer to be in the woods. Not to mention that Alpines are a Swiss Breed which means they are better suited for cooler weather then hot, meaning that they enjoy shade. I also have read that goats that are kept on open pasture in say a field are more prone to getting worms then those kept in a wooded area. That area sounds plenty large enough for two Alpines, as long as you feed them hay.


Well then, my goats are going to be happy, because if I make it in a wooded area, their pen will almost double in size.  (About 95 by 100, possibly.) Fencing was my biggest worry I think, but I've pretty much got that covered now.  Goats, here I come!


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 16, 2013)

How far apart do I put the posts?


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## SheepGirl (Apr 16, 2013)

An acre is 43560 sq ft. If you plan on feeding hay to your goats and essentially keep them on a dry lot, then their pen can be as small as 60 sq ft for two goats. If you want them to get most of their diet themselves, then they will need 2/5 of an acre at least.

And most posts can be spaced 8 ft a part...however post spacings depend on type of fencing, terrain, direction of the fence, etc.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 16, 2013)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> An acre is 43560 sq ft. If you plan on feeding hay to your goats and essentially keep them on a dry lot, then their pen can be as small as 60 sq ft for two goats. If you want them to get most of their diet themselves, then they will need 2/5 of an acre at least.
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> And most posts can be spaced 8 ft a part...however post spacings depend on type of fencing, terrain, direction of the fence, etc.


Fencing will be electric. What do you mean by direction of fence?


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## SheepGirl (Apr 16, 2013)

If it goes around a curve or something.


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## babsbag (Apr 16, 2013)

elevan said:
			
		

> At least an acre....a half acre would be pushing it.  The more room you can give the happier and healthier they will be.
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> You can always expand the space over time though.


You have some spoiled goats. I have 20 full size goats on about an acre, if that. If I ever get the fence done they will get about 3 acres, but for the last 3 years that have been on the small field. I feed alfalfa and they get tree trimmings when I limb up the oaks. In the summer it is so hot here that they spend a lot of time just laying in the shade so they don't mind the small field. I don't have much problems with worms as our pastures are dry all summer, so they stay pretty darn healthy. They honestly don't even use 75% of their pastrure.

The dairy goats don't eat the grass AT ALL, the boers do a little. They patiently (not) wait for me to bring them alfalfa. 

I wished I owned 20 acres.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> If it goes around a curve or something.


Oh, ok. I'd be making it in a almost square. (Maybe more of a rectangle.)


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## elevan (Apr 17, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

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My goats get 99% of their feed themselves.  They have a 3 acre plot for the 7 I currently own.  I mow what they don't eat in the summer and the chickens have a hay day going for the bugs that come out at that time.  I don't spoil them, simply make them find and earn their own food.


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2013)

elevan said:
			
		

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In CA we get no summer rain so our pastures all die unless they are irrigated which cost money as well and since I live on the side of the hill irrigating my pasture is not practical. I think that even if I ran only a few goats on my 4 acres the browse would be gone in a month or so and I would be back to feeding them. I am looking for someone to install my fence so hopefully I can try out this experiment and see how long it takes them to run out of browse. They will be COVERED in poison oak however which will make milking fun.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

Anyone follow my logic for fencing here?  This is what I've got figured out for the fence. It's a little bit off, but this is just estimating right now.

~295 around whole thing
4 strands of wire equals 1180 of wire
5 250' rolls of wire at 4.49 equals 22.45 
Posts 20 feet apart equals 15 posts
1.89 a post equals 28.35
4 wire holders a post equals 60
25 pack at 4.95 needing 3 equals 14.85

Fence energizer-25.89

TOTAL equals 91.94

ETA- I looked up, "how to install an electric goat fence" And it said to put posts 18-24 feet apart. Opinions?
ETA #2- It also said to put the first strand 6" from the ground, and put it 8" up after that. That equals a 30" fence. Is that high enough?
ETA #3- I might make the pen a wee bit smaller then this, too. See, like I told you, rough outline.


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2013)

ArtisticFarmer said:
			
		

> Anyone follow my logic for fencing here?  This is what I've got figured out for the fence. It's a little bit off, but this is just estimating right now.
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> ~295 around whole thing
> 4 strands of wire equals 1180 of wire
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Your prices are WAY WAY cheaper than in California.

Your fence energizer needs to HURT. Make sure it is rated for goats, especially if it is your only fence. And make sure the power supply is readily available and dependable. I use solar. Ours cost 125.00 on sale.

My goats would jump a 30" fence in a heartbeat, electric or no. I wouldn't go shorter than 48.  If I was doing electric only I would go 6" or less all the way up, it is amazing what they can get through, especially when you start have kids. 

20' apart might work, but you want to pull the wire tight so the post need to be 5-6' T posts, and I would put in wood in concrete in the corners so you can pull from them. Out here T-post sell for about $4-6 each.

Not all electirc wire is created equal. You need to find one that has the tensile strength to be the only fence. The stuff we use is designed to be used in addition to field fencing. 

You need something like this.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/polystrand-white-safety-coated-fence-wire-500-ft?cm_vc=-10005

You also need ground rods, at least 2, we have 3. 
http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/fi-shocktrade;-5-8-in-six-foot-galvanized-ground-rod

And the ground rod clamps.

And don't forget a gate and a way to keep the gate from shorting out the fence.

Hope this helps, this is just my .02


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

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Thank you, I totally forgot about a gate.  So, do you think a plain old electrice fence wouldn't work? How many volts would I need?


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2013)

ArtisticFarmer said:
			
		

> Thank you, I totally forgot about a gate.  So, do you think a plain old electrice fence wouldn't work? How many volts would I need?


My charger is rated in joules and it is rated at 1 joule for 25 miles. You can look on Zarebas' site for a chart that tells you what animal it will contain.There are alot of choices; mine was a little more as it runs off a 12v car battery which we keep charged with a solar panel.

http://www.zarebasystems.com/resources/charts-and-guides


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

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I look into that.  Also, I saw someone who had a 7 strand electric fence that was only about 30" high...and it kept the goats in. hmm...I don't know what to do!


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2013)

ArtisticFarmer said:
			
		

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Mine will stay in with one wire when we do cross fencing. But for me it is just nice to know that the worst that will happen is a doe gets bred. I would hate to trust a fence like that for the long run. What will you do if the fence fails, no power, battery dies, charger breaks, etc.? Mine honeslty know when the fence is not energized.  Also do you have to worry about keeping predators out?


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

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Hmmm....Would it work if I put chicken wire (with a strand of electric at goat knee high) about 3-4 feet high, and top with a couple strands of electric? We occaisonally have dogs and coyote to keep out. They will be put away in the barn at night, where the biggest thing that has ever gotten in there is a pregnant raccoon. (took us FOREVER to get all the coons out!!!) But we fixed the barn door so now the only thing in there is chicken and cats.


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2013)

ArtisticFarmer said:
			
		

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My goats don't touch my fence so chicken wire would work for them, but I would worry about the other animals getting in. Goats are easy prey so it is good you will lock them up at night, but domestic dogs can be a problem during the day too. Sometimes animals learn that they can just rush the wire and it will only hurt for a second and then they are done and free. I am not trying to discourage you from owning goats, but it is heartbreaking to lose them once you have them.

I know welded wire isn't preferred with livestock but it might be something that is a middle ground between nothing and chicken wire. Whatever you get you want to make sure that a predator has to climb it and that they will touch a hot wire, preferably with their nose, before they get over the fence. We also run a hot wire about 4-6 inches from the ground on the outside of the pasture so nothing digs under. Chicken wire would be easy to get under; especially with fence posts 20 ft apart. Once a year where I live I have to trim the fence line to mow down the deep green grass or the fence doesn't work as well. Here, once the grass turn brown the charger keeps it down for me.

I use welded wire on my garden and stretched it nice and tight so nothing could get under it. I was surprised how well the fence held up to stretching.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

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Ok- my plan NOW is-

chicken wire around the whole thing, stretched tight.

Electric wire 4-6 inches from the bottom, and 2-4 strands on top of the chicken wire. (Depending on the height of the wire.) I could bury the chicken wire in the ground a little bit, if that would help at all.


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## cjhubbs (Apr 17, 2013)

That sounds like it should work! My friends have goats and they have used the chicken wire in tandem with hot wire and have never had their goats get out. I will say that my goats too seem to know when the fence isn't plugged in, I swear it must be the darn clicking sound the charger makes when its on. However, atleast if the charger where to short or something the chicken wire could keep the goats in for a short amount of time until the problem could be resolved.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> That sounds like it should work! My friends have goats and they have used the chicken wire in tandem with hot wire and have never had their goats get out. I will say that my goats too seem to know when the fence isn't plugged in, I swear it must be the darn clicking sound the charger makes when its on. However, atleast if the charger where to short or something the chicken wire could keep the goats in for a short amount of time until the problem could be resolved.


 Yay! How high should the chicken wire be - 2-4 feet is my options. (well, 1' too, but. you know. )


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## cjhubbs (Apr 17, 2013)

Well goats being goats I would say go for the 4 feet. fencing because they might be able to jump the three feet fencing.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 17, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> Well goats being goats I would say go for the 4 feet. fencing because they might be able to jump the three feet fencing.


M'kay thanks.


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## lovinglife (Apr 18, 2013)

Animals can tell when the fence is not hot just by smelling it.  I used to see our cows out their nose up to a hot wire when it was not plugged in, yep they can tell.  If they are not smelling it, they are getting some sort of sensation from the fence on their nose......


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

lovinglife said:
			
		

> Animals can tell when the fence is not hot just by smelling it.  I used to see our cows out their nose up to a hot wire when it was not plugged in, yep they can tell.  If they are not smelling it, they are getting some sort of sensation from the fence on their nose......


That's interesting!


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## babsbag (Apr 18, 2013)

ArtisticFarmer said:
			
		

> Ok- my plan NOW is-
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> Electric wire 4-6 inches from the bottom, and 2-4 strands on top of the chicken wire. (Depending on the height of the wire.) I could bury the chicken wire in the ground a little bit, if that would help at all.


Do one strand at goat knee height, about 12-16 inches as well.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

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M'kay! I'll probably do one at the top too, for added height.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

Of course now that I have everything figured out, I can't go out and remeasure more accurately because I have a terrible earache in both ears and its dumping buckets of water outside.


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## cjhubbs (Apr 18, 2013)

Oh, I'm sorry that always stinks  . I pray you feel better soon and the sun will come out !


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm sorry that always stinks  . I pray you feel better soon and the sun will come out !


Thanks.  I'll probably go out tomorrow even if its dumping.  My ears are already feeling better, thanks to some home remedies.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

Question- Along one side of the to-be goat pen, there is about a 3 foot fence (4"x4" field fence.) with 2 strands of wire on the top. Would I have to fence this part? I might reinforce it. It would save about 100' of wire!!!!


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## cjhubbs (Apr 18, 2013)

I don't think you would have to necessarily fence where there already is a fence. Is it electric wire on the top of the fence, if there is I would say that the existing fence is probably fine you just will need to either re-string the electric wire or connect it with the new fencing.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> I don't think you would have to necessarily fence where there already is a fence. Is it electric wire on the top of the fence, if there is I would say that the existing fence is probably fine you just will need to either re-string the electric wire or connect it with the new fencing.


Now that I think about it, I think it is barbed. If that wouldn't be *good for the goats, I could easily roll the top part back. (And put electric in place of it.)


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## cjhubbs (Apr 18, 2013)

Yeah, I definitely take the barbed wire off and install the hot wire instead. The existing field fencing should be fine but using barb wire runs the risk of cutting your goats when they jump up on the fence, it would especially be bad if the cut got infected or a goat got snagged on the barbed wire and couldn't pull themselves off.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 18, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> Yeah, I definitely take the barbed wire off and install the hot wire instead. The existing field fencing should be fine but using barb wire runs the risk of cutting your goats when they jump up on the fence, it would especially be bad if the cut got infected or a goat got snagged on the barbed wire and couldn't pull themselves off.


That's what I figured. I also discovered some extra rolls of old field fencing. (Farms with old outbuildings are wonderful things.  Just wondering if I could use it. Oh, and it is kinda rusty don't know if that's a bad thing.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 19, 2013)

I got the final measurements! After I caculate and look up some things, I'll post my estimate prices and area of the pen.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 19, 2013)

Ok- I was thinking of extending the pen into the woods a little bit- but with several old silos and a junk barn, (which wouldn't be good for the goats to get into...) I don't know if it is worth it. It is about 30'x50', but most of that is piles of sticks/limbs that are cut down, and they wouldn't have much at all  to browse through. IF I didn't have that part, they'd have about a 50' by 70
' ish feet.


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## cjhubbs (Apr 20, 2013)

If I were you I probably would wait to expand the pen in to the woods. The current pen my goats have was built in parts and slowly expanded over time and it has never caused issues. Since you are going to feed your goats hay and grain the goats would do fine in a 50'-70 lot. You can always expand the pen in the future if you need the space.


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## ArtisticFarmer (Apr 20, 2013)

cjhubbs said:
			
		

> If I were you I probably would wait to expand the pen in to the woods. The current pen my goats have was built in parts and slowly expanded over time and it has never caused issues. Since you are going to feed your goats hay and grain the goats would do fine in a 50'-70 lot. You can always expand the pen in the future if you need the space.


That's what I thought.


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