# Anyone else notice any of their goats wasting away? Pics Added



## misfitmorgan (Mar 28, 2016)

I have two alpine does i can not get weight or to keep their weight over the winter. The other of the two a 4yr old alpine started losing a lot of weight late last fall, her hair lost its shine and she has bald patches now along her rump. Her sister who is 2yrs old is now starting te same trend. They almost appear as though they just got done weaning twin kids but neither have had kids in over a year now.

We have 12 goats currently total. These two are the only ones that seem to be wasting away. We have not had any new herd members the only change we made was moving to a new farm late last summer. We did separate the older alpine at feeding time when we would give her separate grain and extra rations of grain. They have a mineral block and we wormed her 3 times in the past 4 months while the other goats have gone all winter without needing to be wormed. We also gave her some bose gel. After approximately a month of extra grain she did perk up and put on a tiny bit of weight maybe 5 lbs but then stopped and seems to have lost more weight again. 

We treated the entire herd with corid twice, the herd will be getting wormed this month. They have 24/7 access to good grass hay. We added clover and alfalfa hay and even second cutting to her diet to try to get more weight it did not help. She was has not gotten pregnant in over a year even though she has been with our alpine buck almost that entire time. The first and only time she kidded for us she had twins.

The only thing i can think of is possibly lack of vitamin D or something of that nature. Our goats have been locked inside the barn almost 24/7 since december until about a week ago for various reasons. Since it warmed up outside we have been leaving the barn door open during the daytime. Anyone have any ideas on what might be going on?

Also we lost her mother to similar symptoms over the summer she was however 7-8yrs old and had been bred hard before we got her so we just figured that she was just worn out from so many kids and being heavily milked in between. They had free run to be outside as much as they wanted all summer and all the grass.weeds.twigs.leaves. etc they wanted to eat on 20 acres. So i dont think that was any vitamin d deficiency.


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## TAH (Mar 28, 2016)

Do you have free choice loose minerals? It could be because they haven't been out in the sun.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 28, 2016)

No loose minerals but they do have a trace mineral block and loose minerals mixed into the grain we have milled.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 28, 2016)

Also no signs of diarrhea so i dont think its Johne's.


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## TAH (Mar 28, 2016)

It does not sound like johns. Have they been tested for CAE or CL?


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## samssimonsays (Mar 28, 2016)

Have you had a fecal run or wormed them since the first one started this? that is a tell tale sign of worms.

Get a fecal done to see what kind of parasite and then treat it with the proper wormer for that parasite and full dose.


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## samssimonsays (Mar 28, 2016)

I know mine lost their shine slightly compared to summer when locked up in our barn all winter due to lack of Vitamin D but it shouldn't have caused loss of hair that I know of.


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## Goatgirl47 (Mar 28, 2016)

I also have an Alpine who is just too skinny. I've been trying for a few months to get her back in good condition, but she's stubborn. 

We give our goats kelp in their feed and I've heard it helps bring a shine to their coat. Most of our goats have nice shiny coats now (probably because of the kelp!).

I agree with @Samantha drawz about running a fecal on them.


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## babsbag (Mar 28, 2016)

I am not trying to scare anyone but goats don't usually present diarrhea with Johne's. That is a cow symptom. The most common symptom in goats is wasting, it is called the wasting disease.

I would first start with the fecal, then make sure she has access to a good mineral that she is eating. Then I would have a blood draw done and test for Johne's, it is becoming more common in goats. Are the two that are skinny related or from the same herd? Unfortunately it is contagious and often no symptoms for many years, can't even test kids until they are over a year. (I think it might be 18 months but not sure about that). You can also have a mineral panel done by blood. It isn't as accurate as a liver biopsy for copper but you can't do one of those so blood test is better than no test.

She may need a copper bolus too, and a selenium injection; ;loose minerals may not be enough depending on where you live and how deficient your soil is in your area. I believe that zinc is important for coat condition. I don't think that minerals would affect weight as much as it will the coat, reproduction abilities, and growth rate in kids. Those loose minerals are critical, my herd of 20 goats eat 20 lbs a week. 

Praying that this is fixable and not Johne's


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 28, 2016)

We have been worming the worse off one as i mentioned in the OP, it doesnt seem to make a difference we have wormed with a drench type, and a paste type, and a herbal type all from different makers and the next one is a pellet type.....but the problem i found is they are all the exact same active ingredient for goats(except herbal of course) Morantel Tartrate ...atleast that i can find. Could i use ivermec? i have not had a fecal done because we just got done paying out $800 in vet bills from the last 3 months and we are getting ready to send this years herd test in so that will be more...so i dont have money to have the vet out again right this minute but i am getting really worried about her.

Previous Owner supposedly tested for CAE and we didnt test last year, year before we did a herd test which was only 10% as instructed by the vet. Never saw any absesses at all on anyone so i would highly doubt CL beng the culprit. We are sending in blood to test for CAE in 2 weeks.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 28, 2016)

x2 on Babs post

It sounds like you are dealing with several things right now.

This is what I'd do if they were my goats…
Get a fecal run on all the goats, try to have a McMasters done- not just the normal slide like they use on dogs. The McMasters will give you an actual count.

Pull blood on all the goats and send it out for at least CAE & Johnes. Most think CAE as arthritis in older does but it can cause them to be skinny. I don't know what your lab changes, but our lab charges us $1.50 for each test per goat. If you are out of state it would be $3 for each test per goat. I would also be sending blood out on a select handful of goats and have a mineral analysis done. This cost more but would be worth it IMO.

After you get some data go from there. Stop tossing workers at them until you know what parasites you are fighting against. You may Aldo be dealing with mites or lice, but bald patches are usually due to copper deficiency.

I don't know how the vets are in your region but if you may want to hire in a GOOD goat vet to help your situation right now.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 28, 2016)

Postings at the same time.

Don't know why your vet would recommend testing 10% of the herd.

Unfortunately I don't think there is going to be a cheap way of fixing this  It sounds as if this has gone on for a long while and it is going to take time and money to fix this.


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## Latestarter (Mar 28, 2016)

You say everything was fine until after the move... To me, that is telling! It doesn't matter if it's 2 acres or 200... If there was disease/worms already present, your herd will be the beneficiaries. If the browse/feed/graze available is poor quality/lacking nutrients/minerals, the herd can eat all day and not get what it needs to thrive.

Not being personal, just trying to help. You say you wormed them, but did you run fecals first to see if they had a parasite load? and maybe more importantly which one(s)?  Did you do a follow up fecal to see if the dewormer worked?  There are major issues with parasites building up resistances to certain dewormers because of over use/misuse, or not following the full dosage/time/ # of applications recommendations/requirements. There are some areas where specific name brand dewormers are no longer effective at all against some parasites.

When talking generally poor condition while adding coat problems/issues, aside from parasites, you need to look at diet and especially minerals. Some goats don"t like blocks... it might be sensitive teeth or teeth damage of whatever, but most recommend loose minerals and be sure they are specifically designed for goats... not cows or sheep or general. Perhaps your other goats are able to get what's necessary, but these two aren't... for whatever reason.

Finally, like Babs said, draw blood and do the testing. Eliminate the possibility of the most common issues CAE/CL/Johne's.
http://www.johnes.org/goats/faqs.html 

Babs also asked if the animals in question are related... It may be a genetic issue coming down through the breeding lines... They may just be lacking that vigor that some lines have... I hope it's nothing serious or contagious and you get to the bottom of it.

Edit: What Babs & GW have said!


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## Southern by choice (Mar 28, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Also no signs of diarrhea so i dont think its Johne's.





TAH said:


> It does not sound like johns. Have they been tested for CAE or CL?





babsbag said:


> I am not trying to scare anyone but goats don't usually present diarrhea with Johne's. That is a cow symptom. The most common symptom in goats is wasting, it is called the wasting disease.



Babs is right - often that is the last thing you may see right before death.

Look at feed (grain) &  Hay
FAMACHA
BCS
fecal analysis on EACH goat (McMasters Method)
examine for external parasites
Blood draw on ALL goats for testing of CAE & Johnes (CL if you could afford it)
Extra vial on 4 goats of herd for Mineral Analysis (1 buck, 1 older doe, youngest doe, sickliest) PADDL is about $25-35 each

Drawing your own blood is a huge part of your cost... I would see if there is someone in your region that does consulting and could draw blood... you can send in all these test yourself for a fraction of the cost.

Like everyone else said- You need to make sure you are dosing correctly for deworming and a follow up for efficacy. Proper weight is important.

What is their FAMACHA?


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## alsea1 (Mar 28, 2016)

Where are these two in the herd. I have one or two that are low on the totem pole. If I don't make sure they get feed the others would starve em.


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## babsbag (Mar 28, 2016)

You asked if you can use Ivermectin on your goats, and yes you can. Really suggest that you get the fecal done first but Ivermectin is the only wormer I use, but in some areas the worms are becoming resistant to Ivermectin. That is why you need to get the fecal done before and after worming so you know if your wormer is working.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2016)

I'm not really looking for a cheapest fix....here is the problem the only vet I can find to even look at goats or sheep is an hour away....they know squat about them. To give you an idea we took our lamb there for a broken leg, the vets office has been open for over 35yr and it was the first lamb they have ever had with a broken leg. They know almost nothing about goats/sheep, they didnt even realize she was a lamb and not a goat and they are the closest vet i could find that would even take a lamb/goat even being an hour away. They are also very exspensive that lamb is now a $600 lamb and she still has atleast one more visit with that that will make her over $700. We called about getting them to do just the CAE part earlier in the week and they told us we would have to load our entire herd and bring them to their office...we tried to explain that is not an option since we have 4 of them that are going to kid any day now and young goat kids that are definately not going in the trailer. We asked if they could come to the farm and they said no because we have not established enough of a farm relationship with them..even though that has been the only vet have been using for 2 yrs for our dogs and everything. They also said it would be $30 for the office visit per animal and $35 per blood draw per animals and $25 per sample sent to the lab and another $30 for another office visit(human only) to get the test results....so for our tiny herd(12 goats) to test for CAE it would be $1,110. So i'm sorry but no thank you because that is insane since i know MSU where they are sending it is $6.50 per sample. They also wont let us draw the blood and bring it in because we asked if thats an option.

So we are going to draw the blood ourselves and send it in. I want to test everyone for CAE which will end up being $60 plus shipping and OPPV for our two adult sheep which is another $10. Now here is my question i thought CL and Johne's test were not really reliable? Unless they were shedding cells it would come back negative?

The goat whom died last fall-ish was the mother of both of these does. Ella who is the worse off one is her older daughter and cassiopia who is only a little underweight but also ready to pop with we are guessing twins was out of a set of twins herself off the doe who died. We did necropsy her but found nothing wrong other a weak looking heart. As i mentioned before as near as we could figure she was atleast 7-8yrs old, we figured it had to be age related. She was always a bit of a thinner goat not skinny though. We have always had trouble keeping weight on the Alpine doe's specifically during fall/winter i dont know if that is a breed thing or what. Even the unrelated alpines slim down in winter.

Ella is the only one with such a bad problem with it she slimmed down a bit last winter but then gained weight back in the summer. She is way skinnier this year though. To give you an idea...

The pic labeled Billy 1 was Ella Late summer 2014
The pic labeled Ella is her in approx December of 2014, you can see her backbone sticking out.
The 2015 kids picture is her in approx April 2015

So definately plump then she got pretty thin....then she gained in the summer months and now thinnier then last year. In the summer she usually looks good, shiny coat, plump, healthy. In winter she gets thin and her coat goes all dull and brittle.

I dont think this is Johne's because she does gain weight and look healthy in between. 

As far as the fecal test again the vet wants us to load her and her sister in a trailer and bring her in. $30 per animals, fecal is $95 per animal and it takes a week min to get the results back $250 later....you might see why we dont like the vet. They are not good vets for livestock at all. They dont do anything per say everything is sent out. We ask questions and raise concerns and are told no dont worry about it. They also messed up setting the lambs leg and it is half off but already healing with a giant bone callus so we can do nothing about it. We also asked wasnt the cask getting to tight, could they please check it and maybe re-wrap her, they said no its fine come back in two weeks. That night we got home and her leg was bleeding down the cast from being so tight on her hock the skin was rubbed off and the bone was visible. They put some glue on it and tried to put the same cast back on her. We stopped them. The office is 90% pet services, they rarely see goats/sheep mostly cows/horses. If there was a good vet around the area i would use them. We used to have two but one retired and the other died.

Maybe i am being to judgy but when we ask a question and they dont know...or they ask us questions, its off putting. When the vet looks at you and literally says " you guys know more about sheep and goats then we do" what do you do with that?

For herd placement they are 3rd and 4th out of 12. No one else shows any signs of anything going on, a few dull coats but thats it. In fact every other goat would be considered overweight atm so i dont think its feed. We put Ella in her own stall with her own grain, a goat/sheep specific mineral block, and loose minerals. She was snorting the minerals like it was crack so i definitely think she is missing some mineral. I gave all the herd members who wanted it Probios Paste in case they were lacking and we set out loose minerals for them as well. 

As far as it being from the move....again no one else is showing any signs of a problem. There was also no animals on the property for 3yrs before we brought ours on.

We looked over both goats last night and found no parasites at all that we could see. The bald patches are only by her rump and they are not bald bald more like the hair was rubbed off or winter hair shed out earlly when the summer hair wasnt fully gown in yet.

So bascially we are waiting for the vaccum tubes to arrive then we will draw blood and send it in for testing. Bio Screen is $16.50 per goat/sheep which im fine with i just though CL and Johne's were not reliably testable.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 29, 2016)

No testing is 100% accurate.
1 test 1 time is also not the best way to evaluate a herd.
Yearly testing will give you the best overall accuracy but you have to start somewhere.

Many that go on about the "unreliability" more often than not just use it as an excuse to not test.
Looking at titers on repeat testing is pretty reliable.

There are 4 tests for Johnes. Starting with serum is reasonable expecially under your circumstance. You could do 2 collective samples (5-6 goats pellets in one) pay $40 for fecal culture. It is the most accurate. If one of those collective samples grows MAP  then individual would be in order.

Considering the extreme cost and lack of vet services in your area there are some things you may want to look at. 
First look and see if you have an extension service in your county. If so they can help and at the least can give you a list of large animal/ farm vets.

Second, considering the cost you could at this point have bought your own scope/slides make your own solution etc for under $300 and be running all your own fecals... yes takes some practice but there are many pics of what the parasitic eggs look like on-line.

The doe you lost may very well indeed have had a heart defect which can cause anemia and eventual death. The fact that the herd had to stay in a barn all winter probably has had a negative effect and some goats will fare better then others.
The hay you were feeding in the barn over winter may not have been nutritionally adequate. Again, some goats will fare better then others. Very few people understand the importance of tested hay. Most think "it looks good so it is good"... not so. Maybe this year if you need to overwinter in the barn you may want to try something like Chaffhaye.

I hope you find out what the issues are. Testing won't hurt it will only help.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2016)

What do you mean 1 test 1 time? We planned on testing the entire herd and then re-testing of course next spring. Is that not how it is done? I thought everyone tested in the spring and apparently not just 10% as the vet had said.

As i said i can do the bio-screen which is CEA, CL, and Johne's it's only $16.50 per sample. Since Johne's and CL are reliable, thanks for the info on that.

I think we can only do the serum tests because the lab only offers ELISA method testing. I would love to send the samples all the DCPAH here in Michigan but they only accept samples from vets. They also only have ELISA or AGID.

We did contact the Ext Office they recommended this vet office for sheep/goats aka the only ones who take them. The problem locally is that all of the old timey vets have died or retired so we only have new young vets...with less experience or vets who dont want to work with large animals/livestock. There are 11 vets within an hour drive from our farm, 2 of those 11 will work on livestock....of those 2 only one will readily work on sheep/goats and they wont give us a farm call. 

So option 2 scope and slides....i can do that. Any recommendation on a particular scope?

The hay was varied, it came from 4 different fields the closest being 3 miles apart from each other the farthest being 20 miles apart. Some hay was grass, some first cut, some second cut, some alfalfa, some clover....it would have been hard to test the hay because there were so many kinds not just one type and nothing in large quantities....the most we had off one field  was approx 80 bales, but another field was only 18 bales which was the clover hay. We will likely be giving the alpines some store bought type of alfalfa blocks or pellets or something to keep their weight on this winter.

Luckily we will not be overwintering inside the barn next year, this year was a lot to do with not having enough fence built and drainage problems on the farm that basically made the door they are suppose to go out of to get to the pasture about 2ft deep in water. I dont have a problem with them being outside but outside after having to wade thru 2ft of water in late fall is asking for trouble. And then the door froze into the water so we couldnt get it open...etc etc. The property is getting tile this year and more fence and another alternate door put in the barn so should have the issue solved.

Hopefully she will have slowed down on the loose minerals when i get home from work. Things by the barn door they use are dry enough since the thaw so they have free access to outside now. The two thin Alpine girls just stand out there in it, the rest mill in and out mostly in cause thats where the hay feeder is still.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 29, 2016)

The Johnnes test can sometime show false positives with the standard ELISA.  If you get a positive you can do a second Acid Fast Stain test that's better, but more expensive.  We have had to do this once in many, many tests.

The CL test can give false negatives which to me is worse and why we don't test for CL.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> x2 on Babs post
> 
> It sounds like you are dealing with several things right now.
> 
> ...



I would love to hire in a good one......we dont have any. What lab are you referring to btw?
We do most of our own vet work, blood draws, etc because our vets are competent when it come to goats/sheep. We do use the vet for out dogs and they do fine there.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> The Johnnes test can sometime show false positives with the standard ELISA.  If you get a positive you can do a second Acid Fast Stain test that's better, but more expensive.  We have had to do this once in many, many tests.
> 
> The CL test can give false negatives which to me is worse and why we don't test for CL.



The only test method this lab offers for any of the 3 tests is ELISA.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 29, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> The CL test can give false negatives which to me is worse and why we don't test for CL.



You are not going to get a false negative every year on the same goat over and over. Whole herd testing gives titers and that is more important than just a neg/positive.

Even if a positive it doesn't mean one has to cull it does mean that goat is one to watch closer and watch titers. Considering CL is zoonotic I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't do what they can to keep it from their herd.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 29, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> You are not going to get a false negative every year on the same goat over and over. Whole herd testing gives titers and that is more important than just a neg/positive.
> 
> Even if a positive it doesn't mean one has to cull it does mean that goat is one to watch closer and watch titers. Considering CL is zoonotic I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't do what they can to keep it from their herd.



I agree you are not likely to have a false negative year after year.
But, you are also not likely to have CL and never have an abscess either year after year.

My vet has a herd of goats  He tests for CAE only.
I know 2 other vets that have herds.  One tests for CAE, TB, and Brucceliosis
The last vet also has a dairy.  CAE, TB and Brucelliosis.
None test for CL.
You probably know vets who say you should.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> I agree you are not likely to have a false negative year after year.
> But, you are also not likely to have CL and never have an abscess either year after year.
> 
> My vet has a herd of goats  He tests for CAE only.
> ...



Doing what the vet does isnt always good practice. We lived by a vet who is unfortunately deceased because he was a great large animal vet....to other peoples animals. He had a beef herd and horses...he has between 4 and 8 horses at any given time over the 20yrs he was our neighbor in a 1 acre pen. There was rarely grass in the pen and except for the hottest part of summer it was always wet mud with standing water. Is this a proper way to keep horses? no. His beef cattle were so poorly managed he would lose 4-5 adult cows/year. One year he lost 14 6-8 month old calves and instead of burying them he dragged them into a pile in the woods and left them there to rot.

So personally no, i am not going to do everything the vet does. Keep in mind he was a really good very popular vet that everyone loved. Not saying the vets you know are bad but i'm also not saying they always know best.



Southern by choice said:


> You are not going to get a false negative every year on the same goat over and over. Whole herd testing gives titers and that is more important than just a neg/positive.
> 
> Even if a positive it doesn't mean one has to cull it does mean that goat is one to watch closer and watch titers. Considering CL is zoonotic I cannot understand why anyone wouldn't do what they can to keep it from their herd.


 
Southern do you know any good websites or books off hand that explain titters well? Cause i have no clue what that means.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 29, 2016)

f





misfitmorgan said:


> Doing what the vet does isnt always good practice. We lived by a vet who is unfortunately deceased because he was a great large animal vet....to other peoples animals. He had a beef herd and horses...he has between 4 and 8 horses at any given time over the 20yrs he was our neighbor in a 1 acre pen. There was rarely grass in the pen and except for the hottest part of summer it was always wet mud with standing water. Is this a proper way to keep horses? no. His beef cattle were so poorly managed he would lose 4-5 adult cows/year. One year he lost 14 6-8 month old calves and instead of burying them he dragged them into a pile in the woods and left them there to rot.
> 
> So personally no, i am not going to do everything the vet does. Keep in mind he was a really good very popular vet that everyone loved. Not saying the vets you know are bad but i'm also not saying they always know best.
> 
> ...



I don't necessarily follow everything the vet says either.
But, these 3 vets have some of the nicest animals around.  I've been to all of their farms and believe me they don't abuse their animals the way the vet you mentioned did.  I show goats with all 3 of them.  I don't think the vet who lived by you is a very good comparison.

But, I also don't follow everything I read on internet forums either where people aren't even using their real names.  Between the two, I'm more likely to go with what those 3 vets say/do every time.  I'm sorry you don't have better vets for goats in your area.  I'm lucky in that there are some good ones here.

But, in this case you could ask 10 vets and most likely get a split opinion any way.

Edited to add: When I said I don't always follow everything I read on internet forums where people aren't using real names, I did not mean to imply that there is not good information on this forum.  There is.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2016)

If you know the vets and their herds and have seen in their barns and such but never found anyhing questionable i would be inclined to favor what the say or do as well. Split opinions always happen. I watched 2 local vets fighting over whether it was healthy to give dogs vaccinations every year or not....studies show it is not needed....but they both had their point of views.


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## babsbag (Mar 29, 2016)

Here is an explanation of a titer.  It has to do with how much they have to dilute the sample before no antibodies are detectable.

"A *titer* is a way of expressing concentration. *Titer* testing employs serial dilution to obtain approximate quantitative information from an analytical procedure that inherently only evaluates as positive or negative. The *titer* corresponds to the highest dilution factor that still yields a positive reading."

"Titers are usually expressed as ratios such as 1:256, meaning that one part serum (blood) to 256 parts saline solution (dilutant) results in no antibodies remaining detectable in the sample. A titer of 1:8 is, therefore, an indication of lower numbers of CL antibodies than a 1:256 titer."

With the 1:8 titer they only had to add 8 parts of dilutant whereas the 1:256 was 256 parts of dilutant.

Basically a titer will tell you if your goat has ever been exposed to the disease in question.

UC Davis used to say the 1:8 was negative for CL, now they say that it can be as high as 1:128. I have two goats that are 1:16 and 1:32, neither have had an abscess in the 8 years I have owned them. The rest of my herd test 1:8.

I personally don't test every year as my goats never leave my farm. I test new animals and I know where my animals come from. In 8 years of raising goats I have only bought 3 from people that I didn't know. I always ask for the test results in writing. Probably 85% of my herd is from my own foundation stock and there was never livestock on my land prior to us buying it and building a house so I don't worry too much about testing for CAE or CL anymore.  I have just recently started testing for Johne's and since it is usually transmitted by colostrum I have only tested my older dams so far.  If they are clean then the offspring born here really isn't at risk.


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## norseofcourse (Mar 29, 2016)

I hope you can find out what's going on with your goats.

I just wanted to say WOW, so sorry you don't have any real good choice for a goat vet near you.  $95 for a fecal test?  And after all those fees for bloodwork - another $30 just to give you the results??  I'm sorry but those fees are just outrageous IMHO, I wouldn't want to go there either.

You can get fecals done through the mail, there is a company that does them for $5, there's a thread on here somewhere about them.  It's not McMasters method, but it's better than nothing if you aren't doing your own yet (which is a great suggestion).  Good for you for drawing the blood yourselves and getting some testing done.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 29, 2016)

Many who do not test for CL already have CL in their herd that is why they don't test and also why they do not advocate for testing.
Talk with different vets and it will pretty much be split. However, vets can be in a hard spot with this one. Most really don't like to say much on testing with the exception of CAE. There are many in the vet industry that keep sheep and goats and their herds are positive what are they going to say?  Had one vet tell us when we were looking at a buck tell me that I didn't want one- HUH? because they knew we were a tested negative herd and they were not -they were positive. I appreciated the fact that they cared enough to be honest.

Of course if CL is in a herd and the stock is rather valuable with desirable genetics or rare breeds etc it would be reasonable to not eliminate a herd because of it but best to try to manage it.
The meat goat world is riddled with it... but no matter... they are raising for meat- terminal animals.

IMO the "have no lump" thing is rather lame. I posted in another thread the devastating affects of that whole "no lump" crap...

UC Davis still gives titers but also does post 1:8 as Negative
anything over that is considered positive. Yes there has been 1:256 and animal was negative however that is NOT the norm ... generally the norm is internal CL at that point.
They (UC Davis) also did a study on sheep (more internal than external with sheep) anyway they had 3 or 6% of sheep that when necropsied after study was over - these were meat animals- that had internal CL with gross abscesses with titers of 1:16. 
Norm? Probably not.
I do think the vaccine that has been given to goats may be the cause of some of these issues. Once the vaccine is given the animal will always test positive. I am unaware of research done on the offspring of those given the vaccine.
Many do not realize that goats with internal CL may not have any lumps at all and may drop dead when internal abscesses are many and have simply overtaken an animal. Weight gain can also be an issue. 

Milk is not the primary source for Johnes.
from Johnes.org
_"Consequently, the *primary source of infection is infected animals’ manure *(and the resultant contaminated environment) and milk.
.....
*Milk from infected female animals is a second source *of MAP infection. Just as with fecal shedding, the likelihood of MAP being excreted into milk increases with time as the infection progresses. MAP may be excreted directly into the mother's milk and/or the surface of the teats might be contaminated with infected manure." _

Ultimately disease is disease.  None of us in the livestock world is exempt. But why would you not do everything you could do to prevent disease? Data is a great management tool. Anything can happen... we all know this but if we just keep thinking this and that is no big deal what happens in the long run?

Each person should decide what is best for themselves but at least research for yourself. Your vet, your friend, people on forums etc ultimately are not dealing with the consequences- you the herdsman are- both financially and emotionally.


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## babsbag (Mar 30, 2016)

In the March 2012 CAHFS connection they said that titers 1:128 could be seen in both negative and positive animals.  I have not had a test done by CAHFS (UC DAVIS) since then with any results other than 1:8 so I do not know how they would report 1:16 titers. 

http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/local-...S_Connection_Small_Ruminant_edition_final.pdf

One of my goats had their titers go from 1:32 to 1:16. The other stayed at 1:16. That was 1 year apart and I have not tested them since. That was about 5 years ago. All the rest of my goats have tested 1:8.

I have friends that vaccinate does for CL as they are trying it eradicate it from the Boer herd without losing all the genetics.  None of their offspring test positive so far.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 30, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Here is an explanation of a titer.  It has to do with how much they have to dilute the sample before no antibodies are detectable.
> 
> "A *titer* is a way of expressing concentration. *Titer* testing employs serial dilution to obtain approximate quantitative information from an analytical procedure that inherently only evaluates as positive or negative. The *titer* corresponds to the highest dilution factor that still yields a positive reading."
> 
> ...



Thank you much forthe explanation Babs!!



norseofcourse said:


> I hope you can find out what's going on with your goats.
> 
> I just wanted to say WOW, so sorry you don't have any real good choice for a goat vet near you.  $95 for a fecal test?  And after all those fees for bloodwork - another $30 just to give you the results??  I'm sorry but those fees are just outrageous IMHO, I wouldn't want to go there either.
> 
> You can get fecals done through the mail, there is a company that does them for $5, there's a thread on here somewhere about them.  It's not McMasters method, but it's better than nothing if you aren't doing your own yet (which is a great suggestion).  Good for you for drawing the blood yourselves and getting some testing done.



Thank you!


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 30, 2016)

ok so next question... Anyone know a good source to get red top tubes?


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## Latestarter (Mar 30, 2016)

You can do an Ebay search for blood tubes and find plenty. Also you can order them online from suppliers. There may be local suppliers near you.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 30, 2016)

maybe i was searching the wrong thing the only thing i could find was a pack of 50 lol...let me try again. Thank you Late Starter.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 30, 2016)

I want to clarify something I said in my post from earlier...


Southern by choice said:


> Many who do not test for CL already have CL in their herd that is why they don't test and also why they do not advocate for testing.



A friend texted and mentioned that it was like I was implying herds that do not test are all positive... 

*NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It really isn't what I mean at all.*

Many,meaning just that, NOT ALL... we know many people especially in the meat goat world that do have CL... they know it so it doesn't make sense for them to test it is not something that is as big a deal as it may be to dairy herds.

Out of the dairy people I now that have had CL either they culled or they accepted the fact of having CL and don't test because they already know they have it. They do not see the need to spend $ on titer #'s. 

There are many herds that do not test for CL because of the test issues, or their vet said not to, or they don't want the expense or they don't feel it is necessary because they never had a lump. 

We also know many GREAT BREEDERS that have been breeding for 20-30 years or so and they have never tested for CL... doesn't make them less of a breeder or wrong... they also have never had a lump.

When a herd is having issues such as the original poster it is more a matter of *using testing as a diagnostic*... no testing is perfect... but best to start somewhere.

We use testing as a* management tool.* If suddenly I had a goat test "positive" for CL depending on those numbers... and I kept the goat then I could be more watchful. Bucks especially... in winter with huge necks from rut and big hairy manes you may not even detect a lump (most lumps are on neck) and with them being in rut and pee pee covered LOL they aren't "loved" on as much. A lump could burst before one ever knew it was there. 

Eventually we will go to probably every 2-3 years for CL testing and just do CAE & Johnes annually. 


So again to clarify ... just because someone doesn't test for CL it doesn't mean they have it... same for all testing really.


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## babsbag (Mar 30, 2016)

I think the tubes usually come in packs of 50 or 100. Try Amazon too.


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## samssimonsays (Mar 30, 2016)

I found the red top tubes on Amazon and Jeffers pet for sure. In packs of 100 it is cheaper at only like $45 maximum. I also found the syringes and needles in packs of 100 on the same sites at around $12-25.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 30, 2016)

Not much on ebay i can get glass tubes with clot in them...which i know i dont want...plastic tubs with serum seperator....or 5ml plastic red top vacu tubs...

So here is my question how do i get 6ml of blood in a 5ml tube esp when the lab says dont fill more then half way full lol.

Seriously though i hope i found the right one. Red top with black ring 9ml hemo top vacu tubes.....but it says with sillica coating to activate clotting...

Can i use these? Here is a link. 
https://www.pulmolab.com/product_in...PWGHb1Jje5T1N9e6Xl6iotxWg3GS6UcFbgaAncv8P8HAQ


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## sadieml (Mar 30, 2016)

I don't know about the right tubes to use (I am just about to begin testing myself), but I would say if they need 6ml of blood I would fill 2 5ml tubes to the 3ml mark (is there a mark?).  I don't know anything, yet, really.  Just MHO...


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 30, 2016)

Samantha drawz said:


> I found the red top tubes on Amazon and Jeffers pet for sure. In packs of 100 it is cheaper at only like $45 maximum. I also found the syringes and needles in packs of 100 on the same sites at around $12-25.



We have a 100 pack of syringes and needles we ordered from valley vet two months ago because vaccination time was coming around and we always like to have extra on hand.

My only concern with getting 100 tubes is.....dont they expire? or no because they dont have additives? Because with 100 tubes even if i tested every goat/sheep we have every year it would take over 6yrs to use them.


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## Latestarter (Mar 30, 2016)

The tubes (for human use) do have an expiration date. For animal use I don't think that's quite as important. I doubt the feds are gonna come down on you about it, where in a hospital environment they most likely would. I really have no idea what size tube or with/without serum... Perhaps you could contact the test center where you'll be sending the tubes and ask them what specific tube/mfgr you should purchase?


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## babsbag (Mar 30, 2016)

http://www.shopmedvet.com/product/b...t-supplies-blood-collection-tubes-centrifuges

6 ml seems like a lot of blood.  We always use 5 or 6 ml tubes and we never worry about an expiration date.  Bio-tracking only needs 2 ML to test for CAE and UC Davis only needs one for CAE, CL, and Johne's.  We usually send 3-4 ml for all of those.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 30, 2016)

Several times we had a goat pull back and ended up with just over 3ml... in the end we got a call saying they didn't have enough left over to send to UC Davis... which meant the rest of the batch did get sent... with a $20 shipping fee... The ones we had to do over got send out separate for again a $20 ship fee.
I don't like paying $40 in shipping 

We were told 5-6 and that will be plenty. The thing is when you draw it is just as easy to do 5-6 as 3-4. The tubes (if no additives) are fine past expiration date.

We had 200 tubes... but so many people didn't want to buy a case when they were testing 4 goats... we gave them the tubes. We have a lot of goats and test yearly- new animals are tested up to 4x for CAE in their first year on our farm.


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## Firemedichagy (Mar 31, 2016)

@misfitmorgan 

Is it possible you could isolate them just for a little bit and get a zip lock bag of each one's droppings.
My vet will test that way for about $16.00
Just run it up there and drop it off, no doctor visit fees. Maybe if you call around there may be some vet that can do it for you if yours doesn't.

Also, I have given my guy black sunflower seeds in theist and it makes his coat look amazing. They're pretty fatty too for weight gain.
He will eat them by the handfuls. ( not allowed anymore , he's on a diet )


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## Firemedichagy (Mar 31, 2016)

@Southern by choice

I'm new at this ...
I saw you said some of your here were tested 4x for CAE?
Is once not enough?

My guy was only tested once. He has really bad arthritis.
Should he be tested more than once?

I draw blood on people no problem, got the vet to do his and It was over $100 for him to do it. If I had known that I certainly would have done it myself.

Still so much to learn.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 31, 2016)

Firemedichagy said:


> I saw you said some of your here were tested 4x for CAE?
> Is once not enough?



One doe has been tested 4x for CAE.  The reason is again... a proactive stance. When we bought the doe the doe's dam was negative for CAE but the herd had some does test positive.  
This doe tested negative, as we expected. Because of the fact that some does from the herd she came from were positive I felt testing her at so many months apart would show if there were changes in her numbers. No changes, but because no testing is perfect and the fact numbers can change I felt it best to test again before she was bred and again just prior to kidding. Just in case, I would rather be prepared than not. Her numbers never changed and she will just be routinely tested like the rest of the herd. This was recommended to me and it made sense.

A second doe came from CAE neg tested herd but they had a closed herd and stopped testing several years earlier. Not a big concern as they were truly CLOSED. But, again... prevention and being proactive. She will now be just annually tested.

I don't think you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. I just try to do what I can do. If either doe would have come up positive then I would have either heat treated the colostrum or given colostrum we have frozen from another doe. 

As far as your guy goes... it would not hurt to test him again and use it as a "process of elimination" . There are many reasons a goat may have arthritis, a good vet can help you manage issues you may have with your boy's arthritis.


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## babsbag (Mar 31, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Several times we had a goat pull back and ended up with just over 3ml... in the end we got a call saying they didn't have enough left over to send to UC Davis...



I guess it is different for me since UC Davis usually does all of my testing so nothing needs to be sent. We draw 3 ML to get it all done.


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## misfitmorgan (Mar 31, 2016)

We do have the one in her own stall so we could get samples but the vet is still $125 per animal...$95 for the testing supposedly and $30 for the office visit...you cant not pay the office visit. They want the goat/s brought in and they have to take the sample, we asked if we could bring in just the sample and they said no because they need to see the animal itself and they need to take the sample themselves....so no way getting around it there. The other vets on do pets or large livestock, they wont submit a goat fecal for us. So we are going to have to buy a scope and do it ourselves.

We have decided to send out samples to Rollin for CAE and Johnes, then send samples to Biotracker for CL because that should be cheaper then rollin sending them to UC. We shall see since we will be sending 10 samples. We are going to do 5ml in each of the 9ml tubes and that should be enough then 2ml for the cl testing in each tube for that. We have 12ml syringes so we can draw all 7ml in one go.


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## babsbag (Mar 31, 2016)

You could send them all to Bio tracking and it would be $15.00 for all three tests. Pretty cheap and easy, one tube, one shipping. But they want it on ice and shipped overnight for Johne's


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 31, 2016)

@misfitmorgan 

I believe you can ship Rollins lab fecal samples as well (for parasite/cocci check). Not sure on the cost, but it has to be cheaper than what the vet charges you! 
If you do it, ask for the McMasters fecal test to be run and ask them to look for cocci. 

I think another lab does it cheaper then Rollins, but I cannot remember the name.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 31, 2016)

This was from an old thread back in 2012, Ithink this is the lab. Might be something worth considering. 



EggsForIHOP said:


> Try this one: http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php
> 
> It's only $5 a sample there, a lot of our local producers use them and swear by them and the only extra cost to you besides the $5/sample is the shipping and your gas to the post office. I have started using them PER MY VET because she is so far away...and busy...and trusts this company...that she refers simple stuff like that to them so she can have more time in the field and less in her office.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 1, 2016)

Babs the overnight on ice is what gets me cause the closest one i could find info for was in cali so that would be quite expensive, their bio screen is also 16.50 at that one. Rollin is $3 each for CAE and Johnes and that is in North Carolina so a lot closer to me. The CL only going to biotracker they only require two day shipping which would be better for Michigan to Cali. If USPS had guaranteed overnight delivery i would probly send it but without the guarantee i dont think i would take the chance of having to re-drawn and send it all again.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 1, 2016)

Thanks Goat Whisperer i will check them out, might be worth it until i can get all the stuff to do it myself rounded up.

Anyone know why my quote button stopped working?


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## Latestarter (Apr 1, 2016)

@Nifty (the site owner) was complaining that the site(s) were getting so large they were costing him a fortune to keep them up and running so he was going to arbitrarily turn off the quote function to help slow site growth...














April fools.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 1, 2016)




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## misfitmorgan (Apr 1, 2016)

i was gonna say that makes no sense lol!! But yeah it really isnt working hasnt been since yesterday.

Seems BYH made this a featured thread.


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## Latestarter (Apr 1, 2016)

The BYC site had some of these glitches a few weeks back. Some software upgrades they did messed things up. They did get it all back working again after about a week.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 1, 2016)

Ok so new plan is

CAE and Johnes at Rollins $3 each
CL at Biotracker thru Sage Labs in North Dakota $6

Fecal at MidAmerica $5 and they test for stomach worms, nematodirus, cooperia, hookworms, threadworms, whipworms, nodular worm, tapeworms and coccidia.

Shipping will be a bit more but since we are sending 10 samples to each lab it should come out to be $60/rollins plus shipping, $60 to biotracker plus shipping, and $50 to MidAmerica plus shipping.
$170 plus 3 location shipping

or

Bioscreen thru Biotracker/Sage labs $140 plus shipping plus $50 to MidAmerica plus shipping
$190 plus 2 location Shipping

Are the most likely lol.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 1, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> The BYC site had some of these glitches a few weeks back. Some software upgrades they did messed things up. They did get it all back working again after about a week.



Thank you Late Starter...figured out my reply button still works lol.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 4, 2016)

So it has been about a week and Ella is looking marginally better. The herd has been allowed outside as much as they want in the daytime except the last two days while we had the freak storm. Ella also got probios paste and nutri drench. We gave her a bowl of loose minerals again and she was very interested in it but not eating it like crack. Ella is still in her own stall. We separated the suffolk from the goats so the goat herd can have free choice loose minerals. Then we went and bought a goat and sheep block for the sheep so we were sure it had no copper. 

Ella has filled out slightly and she seems more happy. Now for the bald spots by her butt mystery. She is rubbing the hair off. So what causes a goat to rub the hair off their butt? It's only her butt every where else is fine. We checked her out closely and saw no signs of lice or mites and no other herd members are rubbing themselves. Any ideas?

Waiting on the test tubes to arrive so we can draw blood and send it out.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 6, 2016)

So happy you are seeing improvement!


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 7, 2016)

Me too i havnt been out to the barn for a few days so hopefully she is still improving. To clarify that DH generally does barn chores and i have been sick due to the poopy weather here.


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## sadieml (Apr 10, 2016)

Sorry to hear that you (also) have fallen victim to the horrible weather.  It's been typical South Carolina weather, 60's & 70's in the daytime 30's at night.  I have the 1st ear infection I've had in 20+ years, really awful, went to doctor, got antibiotic 3/31 went back for Z-pack on 4/8.  The doc said he could certainly see why I said I couldn't stand the pain much longer.  This is agony-AND I can't hear!  Thank the Lord my kids can fend for themselves, now so at least no one will starve.  They keep feeding their Daddy, too. YAY!  I don't want food, but I bet I still won't loose weight, thanks to my thyroid.
I want Spring to get here before Summer does, but that's pretty rare in SC.  

AND, btw, my tiller is on the fritz!  So much for getting melons and squashes in the ground!  (just call me Whiney Butt)


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## Latestarter (Apr 10, 2016)

Awwww   Hope you get through it and back on your feet quickly. Haven't had ear infections in many years but remember well how painful they can be. Just as an aside, you don't "need" a tiller to plant melons,squashes,pumpkins... just loosen the soil in a shovel's width, and plant. They typically have exceptionally strong roots that should have no problem spreading out and loosening the surrounding soil as they do.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 11, 2016)

Sorry to hear your sick to Sadieml. Mine involved pretty much 3 days of sleeping and super high fever causing dizziness and my eyes to burn etc. Better now but still sore throat and coughing and dizzy now and then.

Update on the testing. My tubes finally arrived on saturday so hopefully we can drawn blood today or tomorrow and get it sent out.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

Pic 11
I noticed her skin is very flaky almost like really bad dandruff, i thought maybe it was just dry from winter but the other goats dont have that



 
A lot of the other smaller goats are losing the hair on their noses i thought it was just from the hay manger but i could be wrong


 
Some not very good looking poops too 


 


 
i noticed one of the La Mancha also have the copper colored hair


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

Testing got delayed we decided to draw blood tomorrow and ship monday after work. So no test results yet. I do have pictures of her though and some of the other goats.


This is Ella the Cou blanc in the middle and her daughter Cassopia the Cou Clair is in front of her on the left...the Cou Blanc on the right is May.


 

Cassopia


 

May being nosey


 

Ella and Cassiopia again


 

You can see how thin Ella is and how thin and patchy her coat is. I'm also wondering if thatis copper deficancy on the end of cassiopia's tail?


 

This is a closer picture of Cassiopia's tail


 

Only evidence of the copper color on Ella


 

This is the areas where she appears to be rubbing the fur off and recently got bloody spots


 

More copper


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

For reference this is what Ella looked like in Nov 2014 and what she looked like last summer.


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## TAH (Apr 16, 2016)

Have they had minerals?


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

Yes they have always had access to a trace mineral block that does contain copper and whenever i started this thread i also bought a bag of loose minerals with copper in it and gave them that but it hasnt made much of a difference. I'm looking at ordering some of the Ultracruz goat copper bolus so i can dose everyone every 6 months or so.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

Our water is heavy in sulfur and i read that sulfur blocks copper absorption...anyone have any idea if sulfur in water would have the same effect? We have been on this property for almost a year now and the major problems didnt start until we moved them here.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 22, 2016)

Copper Bolus are suppose to be here today, Blood for testing got mailed out yesterday...fecal collection and CDT vaccines today. Hopefully we get some answers or more improvement out of that. I also bought some noble goat pellets to feed Ella and her daughter Cassiopia separately from the herd and then they get to help clean up some oats/corn after that. We have some alfalfa hay coming so we can mix a few flakes in to the grass hay...hopefully all that and the copper will get their weight back up. Phoebe the Boer/nubian cross needs a little weight too but she just got done nursing twin bucks 3 weeks ago and she always gets a bit thin while nursing. Hopefully Sunday will be hoof trimming day. We have also decided to top dress our hay field with alfalfa lightly so this years hay will have a small amount of alfalfa in it which hopefully will help with weight on all the does.


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## Latestarter (Apr 22, 2016)

Sounds like you have a whole lot going on there. Hope the testing provides some clearer picture and an idea what direction to take. Improving the quality of the food is always a good thing IMO... Hope they all improve.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 25, 2016)

The worst off goats got their Copper on Friday evening....because the pill gun didnt arrive yet. I used the marshmallow trick but they were not feeling the marshmallows lol. Had to thru the cram it into their mouths and hold my hand over so they would taste it before spitting it out. After that they wanted it just fine but wow what a mess, poor May ended up with her beard stuck to the side of her mouth so i can to take her to the trough and try to wash it off. So yeah all the alpines got done, Phoebe got done and Lucy got done just cause she was standing in the grain stall with me and liked marshmallows just fine lol. So i have Alice, Missy, Bella, and Moon left to do, pretty sure they were gonna be the worst because they always are. Moon doesnt like anything people food not even gingersnaps or molasses.  

Everyone got CDT except the newborn kids and the moms who were due any day now. Lambs and the one kid we held back got their CDT booster. Fecals did not get collected i will have to do that tonight. A friend of ours needed a place to put his pigs asap so we ended up having him come over and helps build another stall in our barn. So that messed up our weekend plans and DH ended up having to work a 10hr shift on saturday.


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## Latestarter (Apr 25, 2016)

Sorry your weekend got messed up... Hate it when that happens (all too often). But look at the bright side... You got a LOT accomplished, even some stuff you never planned to do (pigs). Maybe your friend will leave a couple of piglets for you in "payment" for your help and you can look forward to a fall freezer filling? Wouldn't THAT be nice?


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 25, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Sorry your weekend got messed up... Hate it when that happens (all too often). But look at the bright side... You got a LOT accomplished, even some stuff you never planned to do (pigs). Maybe your friend will leave a couple of piglets for you in "payment" for your help and you can look forward to a fall freezer filling? Wouldn't THAT be nice?


He only brought over 2 gilts...we have 2 gilts, a boar and a meat barrow..they are about 5 months old so should breed in about a month. Then we should have all the bacon seeds we want to grow into freezer fillers. Yummy!! The barrow is for my mom he will be butchered hopefully in june/july before the hottest part of summer gets here. Having another stall finished is nice but it is already filled up with his gilts lol. We have enough maple to make one more stall though then we have to get more wood. This will give us 4 stalls on the north side of the barn...space/plans for one more on that side. Then 6 stalls on the south side. The stalls are 8ftX10ft so we can put drop in temporary boards down the middle to make 4ftX5ft birthing stalls for goats/sheep.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 25, 2016)

Sorry some of your plans got postponed, but so happy you are getting it all done 

Hoping its something that can be fixed and nothing major- fingers crossed for you


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 26, 2016)

I hope so too. Got the pill gun in the mail yesterday so got the rest of the herd copper Bulus'ed too.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 27, 2016)

Upon reflection im not very happy with the pill gun we got...i dont think it is long enough as we cant really get it to the back of their tongue even on the mini/ND goats. Luckily all the standard size goats and our one mini La Mancha took the copper in a marshmellow. The others were a bit of a fight even with the gun.

Ella was actually looking perked up last night, standing better and actually being a bit bossy like her old self. Maybe i am being to hopeful but she does look marginally improved so i hope the copper is helping today will be day 5 after her copper bolus. Also day 5 on supplementing her with a bit of noble goat.


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## sadieml (Apr 28, 2016)

Glad for the apparent improvement in Ella.  Hope the copper and noble goat prove to be just what she needed.


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## misfitmorgan (May 19, 2016)

Well Ella is not doing any better it seems it was wishful thinking. After giving copper bolus to the herd and switching to an alfalfa mix hay and the higher percentage goat grain everyone looks good except Ella. Her daughter who was getting thin and Phoebe who had the twin buck kids have both plumped back up. Ella looks the same only she is more bald now.

So far she has gotten...copper bolus twice (4g total), dumor goat wormer 2 times, Probioic Plus paste 4 times, Bose gel 5 times, nutri-drench 6 times,  CDT shot, jump start plus, i even gave her durvet lamb & kid drench. She has access to loose minerals and gets an entire 3lb scoop of sweet goat feed to herself and never runs out of hay. We laos treated the entire herd for cocci again. She will not gain weight. I have been looking all over online trying to find the problem and i think she has mites...i have looked for lice several time and have found no signs of them but she does look like pics of other goats with mites, except she is so skinny.

I have Ivomec and read that it should get rid of mites but i read to give it orally some places and subQ other places so im not sure which way to go on that. I think i am going to get a horse shampoo and wash her good on Sunday as it is suppose to be sunny and 70 here. I'm not really sure what to do for her. We were switched to 6 days a week 10hrs days at work so i cant get to the post office to mail out samples until we go back to our normal shift. Other then being a walking skeleton she seems happy enough and in good spirits.


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## babsbag (May 19, 2016)

Do the Ivomec injected for mites or lice and be prepared for her to scream, it stings like crazy. I have actually had goats flip and flop after the injection and yet others do nothing. 

You really need to get the Johne's test done. JMO  Did you actually get a fecal done?


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## misfitmorgan (May 19, 2016)

I know i need to babs but things came up and we got to busy and now i have been working 6 days a week 10hrs a day, my only day off being Sunday...HD works the same for his normal Shift so i cant do anything until they switch my shift back cause the PO is closed when i get off work and before i go to work. My new shift is 6:30am-5:30pm...DH is 6am-4:30pm if there was a closer PO to DH's work he could mail it out but the closest one is 35minutes.

I already sent in blood samples but i sent them on the wrong day cause it didnt specify what day and the lab told me i need to send new ones. i never did get the fecal done...i plan too. Ella, Lucy and Cassiopia are scheduled to get bio-screen, everyone else is testing for CAE/OPPV only and then fecals for everyone. I just need to be able to get to the PO to mail them. i wish i could just keep them in the fridge at work and just mail them on lunch but my boss already told me no. I told him they would be completely sealed up and boxed and he sill said no.


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## babsbag (May 19, 2016)

Take an ice chest to work and leave it in your car. Or ask a friend to mail them for you.  I would use FedEx for overnight delivery.


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## misfitmorgan (May 20, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Take an ice chest to work and leave it in your car. Or ask a friend to mail them for you.  I would use FedEx for overnight delivery.


That is a good idea i didnt think about doing the cooler. I cant do FedEx we dont have FedEx locally closest is 45 minutes away. All FedEx packages for us get transferred to USPS at the Hub north or us and then delivered by USPS. Same for UPS, closest UPS is only 20 minutes away though. So yeah im stuck with USPS.


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## babsbag (May 20, 2016)

UGH!!!  So thankful I live in the city version of the country. Plenty of farm and ranch land but city of 95,000 people is only 10  miles away.


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## misfitmorgan (May 20, 2016)

babsbag said:


> UGH!!!  So thankful I live in the city version of the country. Plenty of farm and ranch land but city of 95,000 people is only 10  miles away.



Yeah it sucks i came from a city of 15,000 people....the village i actually currently live in only has 947 people and the city i work in only has 922 people. The closest UPS city that is 20 minutes away has 1,795 people also the closest TSC lol. i was a bit shell shocked when i first moved here but you get over it. We do have a drop box for FedEx and UPS locally but those are picked up after 5pm by USPS then taken to the hub 45mins north of us and sorted then sent to their carrier hub the next day..so i doubt thats faster then sending them out in the 2pm mail at USPS. Your not even suppose to use overnight packages for the drop boxes and if you do it voids the delivery guarantee as far as i know. i am aiming for mail out on monday at lunch even if i have to take an hour lunch and work later.

Ella did get a Ivermax injection last night so shall see. None of our goats have had Ivermectin anything to worm in over 2 yrs so maybe we were missing something. She is getting a bath Sunday then stool sample and blood draw then i will mail out monday i hope, with the rest of the samples.


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## sadieml (May 21, 2016)

We will all be praying for dear, little Ella.  AND for you to be able to get your samples sent off on Monday.


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## misfitmorgan (May 21, 2016)

sadieml said:


> We will all be praying for dear, little Ella.  AND for you to be able to get your samples sent off on Monday.



Thank you much!! She needs it. Her spirits never seem to be down though even with her poor condition she is still always friendly and wondering what you got for her or just wanting to get some pets. Everyone else in the barn looks good, good weight, good coat and losing some of the copper deficient signs.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 9, 2016)

So i have some awesome news.

It was......Drum Roll.........coccidiosis. I had the old timey vet come by and he looked at her for about 60 seconds and said treat her for coccidiosis.  I about fell over but told him she was 2 days into a treatment course because i couldnt think of anything else with the signs she had and i had sent in fecals. He took a fecal sample from her anyhow and called to let me know it was coccidiosis and asked if i had finished the treatment which i did. I wanted to wait until i saw undeniable proof before letting you guys know and the proof is in the hair..lol.

Ella is well on her way to recovering her hair loss, all of the bare patches are filled in with new hair growth presently. Hopefully she starts to gain weight as well soon.


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## TAH (Jun 9, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> So i have some awesome news.
> 
> It was......Drum Roll.........coccidiosis. I had the old timey vet come by and he looked at her for about 60 seconds and said treat her for coccidiosis.  I about fell over but told him she was 2 days into a treatment course because i couldnt think of anything else with the signs she had and i had sent in fecals. He took a fecal sample from her anyhow and called to let me know it was coccidiosis and asked if i had finished the treatment which i did. I wanted to wait until i saw undeniable proof before letting you guys know and the proof is in the hair..lol.
> 
> Ella is well on her way to recovering her hair loss, all of the bare patches are filled in with new hair growth presently. Hopefully she starts to gain weight as well soon.


I'am so happy for you.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 9, 2016)

TAH said:


> I'am so happy for you.



Thank you TAH, im so relieved myself.


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## samssimonsays (Jun 9, 2016)

YAY!!!


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## Latestarter (Jun 9, 2016)

Wow! Fantastic news that it was nothing more serious! Great to hear she's on the mend!


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## Goatgirl47 (Jun 9, 2016)

That's great news!


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 10, 2016)

Thank you all!!


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## sadieml (Jul 3, 2016)

I know I'm late on the bandwagon, but YAY!!!  Sooo happy for you and your dear Ella!!!


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## Ferguson K (Jul 3, 2016)

That's awesome news!


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## babsbag (Jul 3, 2016)

Somehow I missed this until now. Glad that is was something that was "fixable". Now I need to go and run a fecal on one of mine that is going bald....I wonder...


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Somehow I missed this until now. Glad that is was something that was "fixable". Now I need to go and run a fecal on one of mine that is going bald....I wonder...



Sorry to give you extra work lol. 

Still a slow battle with Ella, her entire new coat is coming in very very nicely but her weight gain is still slow. She does seem more energetic and partly back to her old self though which is good. Does anyone know of anything aside from sweet feed style goat grain that will help get weight on her? Atm she gets 3lbs of the 18% sweet goat grain and i honestly do not think that is a healthy amount over all and would definitely not give her anymore. I'm thinking part of her slow weight gain is so much of her calories being put into re-growing her coat.


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## babsbag (Jul 5, 2016)

Look for some show feeds for goats. If you are milking her watch for medicated feed as you wouldn't want that. There is one we get out here called Show Edge Power Phat by Nutrena. Also Manna Pro makes a good supplement and Purina makes one called Noble Goat Charge that we can't get but I would sure try it if we could get it.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2016)

She is not in milk, as she did not cycle this last season so was never bred. We had her on noble goat but it came out the same color it went in and was very soft almost diarrhea poo so after she went thru that bag we switched to the 18% sweet from the local mill.

Purina Goat Chow is 16%
Purina Honor Show Chow Impulse Goat is 15.5%
Purina Honor Show Chow Impulse DX Goat is 15.5%
Purina Nobel Goat Grower is 16%
DuMor Goat Feed is 16%
DuMor Goat Sweet Formula Feed is 16%

Is this the supplement your talking about Babs? Manna Pro Goat Balancer Supplement it is 20% protein should help balance out her rumen..has kelp and all sorts of stuff in it.

Thats all the feed i see for TSC... and those are the protein %'s...ours is 18% so it seems i will just have to try a new kind if the balancer doesnt help.


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## babsbag (Jul 5, 2016)

Yes, I have used the Goat Balancer but prefer Calf Manna...25% protein. I just top dress with it, about 1/2 cup or so.  But with both of them follow the suggested serving size as they seem to love it and like all "candy" they don't know when to stop and more is NOT better.  I had a very sick goat when she helped herself to about a quart of Calf Manna.

Ask TSC if they can get that other Purina feed I mentioned. It seems to be  an Eastern US only feed so they might be able to order it for you. Is that the only feed store you have?  I know they sell Nutrena feeds in Michigan, I just looked it up, but I seem to recall that you are in the middle of nowhere and then some.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Yes, I have used the Goat Balancer but prefer Calf Manna...25% protein. I just top dress with it, about 1/2 cup or so.  But with both of them follow the suggested serving size as they seem to love it and like all "candy" they don't know when to stop and more is NOT better.  I had a very sick goat when she helped herself to about a quart of Calf Manna.
> 
> Ask TSC if they can get that other Purina feed I mentioned. It seems to be  an Eastern US only feed so they might be able to order it for you. Is that the only feed store you have?  I know they sell Nutrena feeds in Michigan, I just looked it up, but I seem to recall that you are in the middle of nowhere and then some.



Haha yes middle of no where...we have the feed mill/store i will have to wait until we make another feed run to check there but it will be today or tomorrow as far as i know. i shall look into calf manna as well, i do give her probios every so often maybe once a month or so....so her rumen should be doing good i think. Some day i am gonna get pics lol.


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## babsbag (Jul 5, 2016)

They should have the calf manna at TSC, I can also buy it at WalMart. 

Our local feed mill started making a 16% goat feed this year and my goats love it. It is a sweet feed but I am ok with that on the milk stand. I was using a 16% cow feed but the goat one has a lot more ingredients...more copper, selenium, some yeast, some dried eggs, and a bunch of other stuff. My goats have been holding weight incredibly well this year. A few have thin coats but I just did the Multi-Min 90 injections again so hopefully that will help their coats. But over all the herd looks good. I do need to check on for cocci just to be sure as her coat is never great.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2016)

Sounds about the same as my mill. They have sweet 16 or 18% and a medicated 16%....and then some other name brand stuff.

i can check walmart too but....its the same distance actually a touch farther to walmart lol like 3 miles.


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## misfitmorgan (Aug 8, 2016)

Updated pics of Ella....still a long way to go on weight gain but she is getting there. I wish she would lose the hunched look already it drives me crazy.




 


 

She has her coat fully regrown and seems cheery, always wants attention, she is trying to get pets in the second photo. Still a bit flaky along the backbone area.


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