# Need some advice please



## SweetWater (Sep 12, 2010)

I really need some advice from those who know about goats. 

 I have been given a heard of goats. I have a Borer doe who I was told has a blown gut, 2  Nubian does in milk that both have a detached udder, and then I have 3  Nubian kids that were born in July. 

I want to keep one of the girl kids, but I can't keep the rest. I want to get rid of them and the lady that gave them to me is insisting I get paid something for them, even if they all go for meat. 

 So aside from the two buckling's, who are big, strong and healthy, the 3 does all have problems, and I don't see how I can charge anyone for "damaged" animals.

 The lady who gave me these goats, said that the two does with detached udders were fine until she lent them to a friend who wanted them for milking and breeding. When she got her goats back, their udders were a mess. 

 I don't know much about goats, so I have no idea if detached udders can happen as a result from bad hand milking practises, or improper husbandry and food management or if this is just something that happens to some goats because of genetics. 

 The female doeling I want to keep is from one of the does with a detached udder, so I'm wondering if she will inherit this from her mother and pass it on to any future offspring if I were to later breed her. 

 I do need to sell or get rid of the 3 does, as soon as possible as we are moving and will only be able to keep a small fraction of the animals we have now. I just really need some advice on all of this. If these animals go to someone who wants to process them, I'm fine with that, but I feel I could charge a small fee for them. 
 But if someone wanted them for pets, companion animals, or lawn mowers, I don't see how I can charge anything for them, as whomever might want them will not be able to get much from them.

 With the two buckling's, I was wondering if I should leave them intact or band them? I'm not sure how to try and market them. Do most people want weathers or do they want studs? 

Thank you for reading. Any information and advice would be greatly appriciated.

Take care


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## savingdogs (Sep 12, 2010)

I can only answer a couple of your questions but I'll get started.

First of all, you don't have to do what that lady told you to do, you can make your own choices since they belong to you.

If I were you, I would keep only the very best young ones that you can afford and want. That is not selfish or bad, it is practical. 

The others, why don't you advertise on CL for a small fee to see if you can get them a home as brush eaters if that is your goal. Or sell them for meat.

Bucklings are only desireable if they are really good quality goats and somehow I would doubt it from your story. People don't necessarily even keep a buck because they stink, so they would probably be more desireable neutered to most people.

If you could post photos of these goats and the udders of the ones you are talking about, I bet lots of folks here could help you evaluate them. 
They will probably all chime in and explain the rest of the stuff to you in a few days, BYH is an awesome place for information, you have come to the right spot!


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## savingdogs (Sep 12, 2010)

PS: 
I also meant to say, if you find someone who wants "lawnmowers" and you want to give them away for free, you can always change your mind if they have responded to an advertisement with a real low price and give them away after all....or offer them some free ones if they take more of the ones you don't want.

$25.00 for two, 45.00 buys them all! That kind of thing.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm not sure about an udder detaching just from milking but I don't have enough experience to know. I would band the bucklings. Wethers are more desirable than bucks. I would think the bad udders are an inherited thing but that doeling did get 50% of her traits from the buck so you may or may not have that problem. 

Like Savingdogs said, since they are now your goats, you decide what you want to do with them. Some people want money out of it no matter what and some people just want to find new homes for their animals.

I also have no idea what a blown gut means. I would think the goat would be dead if it truly had blown gut. Why didn't the woman who gave them to you take her own advice?


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## ohne (Sep 12, 2010)

Here is my advice. 

The bucklings- I would cut them if I were you. You really only want to keep the very best as bucks. From what you have said I wouldn't say that these are going to be genetically wonderful. As a breeder it is your responsibility to perpetuate quality animals. I say cut them and sell them as either meat or brush goats. 

The udder- I seriously doubt that this was a result of milking. Yes rough handling can damage udders, often when you dam raise kids the udders become damaged. However odds are that they just don't have great udders. You don't loss attachment overnight. A doe with a well attached udder should last and have a productive life. 

The doe kid- Keep your best kid. Select the best doe and breed her if she freshens and has a poor udder then replace her with something better. as savingdogs said this is simply practical.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 12, 2010)

This is the first I'm hearing about detached udders and blown guts.  Is a detached udder the same thing as an udder with a poor area of attachment (pendulous) or does it imply that it was attached at one point and no longer is?  Is a blown gut an inherited dropped stomach?

Would love more info about these things from folks in the know...


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## Chirpy (Sep 12, 2010)

Pictures of the udders would really help.   Around here saying that a doe has a 'detached' udder means that it is genetic and will very likely be passed onto her kids... so we don't breed them.  I, personally, wouldn't keep a doe with that in her genetic background (if it is truly genetic - I can't picture bad handling doing that but that's where pictures would help).  If you want to milk goats in the future then start with a better quality doe/doeling... you'll never regret that decision but you may regret keeping a doeling with known genetic issues.

Definitely make wethers out of bucklings.   I can't imagine (given your information) that they should ever be used for breeding so just take them out of that picture now and get them banded, cut or whatever method you choose.  Most people want wethers - not bucks.  The people who do want bucks SHOULD know better than to use an inferior buck for breeding... but some people don't care; thus why I would wether them now and not give someone else that possibility of breeding them in the future.

Just for general information - goats are not lawn mowers.  If someone is looking for a lawn mower tell them to look into sheep.  Goats like weeds and your rose bushes and your trees and other shrubs and plants..... not so much the grass.

I would advertise them on your local Craigslist asking for a small 'homing or adoption' fee.  If someone is wanting them for meat then they aren't paying much and if someone does want them for companion animals or pets they are more likely to take better care of them if they had to pay 'something' for them.

I'm really interested in knowing exactly what a 'blown gut' is according to this lady.  Can you get more information from her on what she means?


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## helmstead (Sep 12, 2010)

The detached udder thing is very much genetic.  In a goat with a well attached udder...kinda doesn't matter what happens, it won't drop down and become pendulous.

I finally saw a detached udder in person at our local auction a few months ago.    It looked so weird.  At first glance, the animal looked like a buck, until I realized that dangly thing was an udder and she still in fact had a kid following her around nursing the bulbous bit at the bottom.  The doe appeared to be a boer/dairy cross.  I was trying to be quiet about taking pics, so didn't get a clear one of her udder...but she's the one in the rear left corner, her kid is just in front of her.







The blown belly thing - this is referring to dropped abdominal ligaments...from overbreeding usually.  Sometimes this also refers to a total relaxation of the sternal abdominal crease, which then allows the uterus to fall out of the abdomen and hang in late gestation.  Either way, it equals a retired animal...but usually isn't something that happens until advanced age is reached.  So, in meat animals...not a big issue.


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## ()relics (Sep 12, 2010)

Sounds like you've aquired a "burnt out dairy herd"...Pretty much what helmstead is saying is correct....Probably none of these animals should be kept for breeding purposes, even the youngsters, as their genetic make-up may be in question....Udders and their attchments are rather improtant in dairy goats...Certainly the bucklings should be banded to insure they don't _accidently_ breed one of the older does or the doelings...I think I would take the whole lot of them to the sale barn, get whatever you can for them, and then buy yourself a healthy animal without "issues", if that is what you want to do...starting with this mess can only lead to more trouble.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 12, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> In a goat with a well attached udder...kinda doesn't matter what happens, it won't drop down and become pendulous.


That's what I was wondering.  That is, I knew that the extent of attachment is genetic, but I was hung up because DE-tached kind of implies that it was and now it isn't.  Thanks for clearing that up.

I've seen pictures of truly pendulous udders...  indeed.



			
				helmstead said:
			
		

> The blown belly thing - this is referring to dropped abdominal ligaments...from overbreeding usually.  Sometimes this also refers to a total relaxation of the sternal abdominal crease, which then allows the uterus to fall out of the abdomen and hang in late gestation.  Either way, it equals a retired animal...but usually isn't something that happens until advanced age is reached.  So, in meat animals...not a big issue.


Does this also tend to be genetic?


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## helmstead (Sep 12, 2010)

I don't THINK so...but then I've more seen this in mares and cows than in goats.  I tend to think it's more based on overbreeding and size of the sire/bull/etc relative to birthweight.

I can see how if people are breeding, for instance, a smallish dairy goat to a biggish boer with high birthweight kids, down the line a ways...a small percentage of does would burn out.

Probably, this is where that "stop breeding at 10 years" came from.


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## SweetWater (Sep 13, 2010)

Thank you for the replies everyone. I will get some pictures of this heard a.s.a.p. 

  I have decided that I don't want to keep any of the goats in this heard. 

 I want to get a doeling to raise and later breed to have in milk once a year to I have milk for the family and sell her kids to pay for her feed and care. At least this is my plan. 

 I live in Bennett Colorado, does anyone know how or where I can find a sale barn or auction barn? 

 In neutering the bucklings, what is the best way to do that? Is one procedure better than another or is it simply a matter of personal preference? 

 Are Alpines a better milk goat breed? 

 What about vaccinations, should they be vaccinated before I sale or give any of them away? Would vaccinations be safe if someone wanted to process them for meat?

Again, thank you for all the replies and I will post pictures soon. 

Take care


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## Ariel301 (Sep 13, 2010)

SweetWater said:
			
		

> Thank you for the replies everyone. I will get some pictures of this heard a.s.a.p.
> 
> I have decided that I don't want to keep any of the goats in this heard.
> 
> ...


You're not likely to find good quality goats at a sale barn, you will get ones pretty much like you already got--bad tempered, poorly conformed, or just not good milkers. You might rarely find a gem, but most animals are at the livestock auction because they are lower quality. I don't know what is in your budget, maybe that is all you can afford, and I can commiserate with you there, I've had to sift through a bunch of trash goats to get a good bargain on decent animals, and then breed up from there. If you really want some good animals though, and want to be able to produce saleable kids, buy the best you can afford. There's a breeder in Fort Collins that has some really nice stock, www.ranchosnowfall.com. They have LaManchas and Alpines. I had a doe out of  their LaMancha stock and she was wonderful other than being a loudmouth. I kick myself for selling her every time I see her now, she makes 2 gallons of milk a day! Alpines are a good milk breed. So are LaManchas, I am particularly fond of them, myself. Love their personality. 

Vaccinations--if they are going to be kept alive a good while, it's a good idea to do them. If they are being sold and going right to the freezer within a few months, I wouldn't bother.


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## jodief100 (Sep 14, 2010)

I concur, if you want good goats you will need to pay good goat prices.  

Three pieces of advice I got from an old goat farmer once that have been very helpful:

If you are thinking of getting into goats, put a cold compress on your head and go lie down in a dark room.  Hopefully, this crazy notion will pass.  (OK, I ignored that one, some days I think I shouldnt have)
Sale barns are for SELLING- Not buying.
A cull is a cull is a cull even if her pedigree says otherwise.

If you want backyard milkers, papers and registered may not be worth paying for.  Of course then selling the kids of unregistered goats means you get less for them.  It is one of those things where you have to figure out what is going to work for you.  Look for good milking lines.  There are some goats that look great in the ring but dont produce a lot.  
I raise unregistered meat goats.  I dont get as much for them but I dont put as much in them either.  I have a greater number of potential buyers and if any dont sell on farm I can take them to auction and it doesnt matter that I get market prices because they were market goats to begin with.  Even someone who raises expensive registered goats has to sell some at market rates, especially the boys.  

Figure out what your goals are and do the research to find what breed/type of animal will get you there.  Ask lots of specific questions and do your homework. 

Vaccines will have a slaughter withdrawal time listed on the label.  AS long as you wait until after the withdrawal time to process them it is fine.  I vaccinate everyone for CD&T and vaccinate for CL on the ones that will be staying on the farm for awhile.  

I dont know that much about milk breeds.  I have one LaMancha and I really like her.  She is friendly and easy to handle.  I dont know if it is just her or typical of the breed.  
I prefer to band the boys for neutering.  It is easy to do and relatively safe.  I did miss a nugget this year so you do have to make sure you get them both in there.   

Check your state or county Ag offices.  They usually know when and where the sales are.  Talk to other local farmers.  They can help you out with markets and such.  

I have people come out to my farm and slaughter a goat there for dinner that night.  If you are near a reasonably sized city with some ethnic population, an ad for meat goats on CL might take those goats off your hands.  In CO I would guess there is a Latino population that will be potential customers.  Around here prices are $1.50-$1.75/lb for under one year and $0.50-$0.75/lb for adults.  You can usually get at least $75 for any goat over 40 lbs.


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## Ariel301 (Sep 14, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> If you want backyard milkers, papers and registered may not be worth paying for.  Of course then selling the kids of unregistered goats means you get less for them.  It is one of those things where you have to figure out what is going to work for you.


Indeed. I have some of both types, I have two purebred "show quality" does and two grade does out of good milking lines, that are unshowable mainly because they have horns. They all milk good, and it works out because backyard milkers don't want to pay the prices I want to get for a purebred, registered doeling, so they can get a grade doeling that is just as good for half the price. They can show them at the fair, just not at ADGA shows. But, I get half the price that I would get from a purebred, for the same cost to produce it....


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## Chirpy (Sep 14, 2010)

> I live in Bennett Colorado, does anyone know how or where I can find a sale barn or auction barn?


There's one pretty close to you.. I think it's in Calhan?  Call your local extension office.. they will know.

Depending on what you want to spend - when you are ready to get a good quality milk goat I can put you touch with numerous people around here that will have very good goats for you.  Most of them have Nubians but there are some Alpines and others.

You will want to decide if you want to buy a doeling and raise her, breed her and then milk when she freshens or if you want to start milking immediately and buy an older doe.

Do remember that goats need a companion goat, they are very social... so plan on having two.  A milk goat and a wether work just great together if you don't want to buy two milkers.


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## PJisaMom (Sep 14, 2010)

SweetWater said:
			
		

> I live in Bennett Colorado, does anyone know how or where I can find a sale barn or auction barn?


I wonder if the OP is wondering where/how to get rid of her current herd vs. where to buy her next goat?


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## SweetWater (Sep 18, 2010)

Hello everyone. Thanks for all the advice. Yes I was wondering where I could find a sale/auction barn to sell the goats I currently have. 

 I see in some of the responses, where I can get that information, so thank you for the heads up on that. 

 Ok for pictures. I took a bunch of all the goats, but so far I can only get 2 pics to post, I will work on getting the other pics posted as soon as I can. 

 So these two pics are of the male kids that were born in July, one is sable I think and the other has what I assume is the traditional tri coloring for Nubian's, the black, white and tan.

In both pics of the males, their moms are in the background, but you cant really see much of their udders.  



 Thanks again for all your responses, Take care


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## ()relics (Sep 18, 2010)

FWIW...they both look like healthy devils from the picture


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## SweetWater (Sep 18, 2010)

Thanks relics, I'm not sure if anyone can tell from these pics, but is their conformation good? The boys are much bigger and thicker than the girls, and the sable one is the biggest of all. 

 Is it normal for the boys to be bigger than the girls?

 I'm still learning about conformation and things like that. Their toes stay together and from what I can tell their backs are flat, but aside from that I'm not sure if they look right.

 Thanks, Take care


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## ()relics (Sep 18, 2010)

sorry...boer/meat goats I can help you with...dairy goats...Not So Much...Roll Farms=  expert on dairy goats, and others as well I'm sure.


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## SweetWater (Sep 18, 2010)

Good to know relics, as one of the does I have is a boer but I think she has been crossed with something else, not sure, I'll get more pics as soon as I can. Thanks, take care


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## Roll farms (Sep 18, 2010)

Whoah...thanks for the vote of confidence on my dairy goat knowledge, but I'm FAR from being an expert on any kind of goats.  It's a learning process...and usually by the time I've learned something the times, rules, and fads change again and I have to relearn it. 

I really like the tri color buck, he looks to be high in the shoulders (good to find in Nubians, as they tend to be 'high' in the back end).  I like his solid ears and he seems to have really strong legs.
His chest is 'deeper' (or appears to be, black can be misleading) and you would hope his daughters would have that depth, as well.

If I had my choice between the two, he'd be the one I'd pick....just by looking at the pics....BUT...pictures are a bad way to 'judge' a goat b/c if they're standing funny or off balance at all, it can throw their whole appearance off.

For instance, the other boy's pic...the harness may be making it look like his shoulders are lower....and it could be hiding his depth...and it looks like he's just a tad down in the pasterns, but he could have been getting ready to take a step, which would make him look like he's 'rocking' back.

Neither one looks "bad" to me, though.


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