# Orig. Post updated - How far to push "6 mos. or 6 lbs" for breeding?



## brentr (Sep 8, 2011)

10/9/2011 
My NZ/Giant Chin cross doe is now 5 months, and a good 7.5 lbs.  I put her in with my NZ buck.  Both of them are first timers.  My buck was clearly willing and trying his best to accomplish the goal.  The doe was not aggressive to him, but clearly not willing - no laying  out or lifting; she stayed kind of bunched in the corners.

Three questions I'd like input on:
1)is her unwillingness a possible sign of sexual immaturity?  I do wonder if being half Giant Chin is delaying her maturation.  I want to breed as early as able, but I obviously don't want to damage her (emotionally or physically) by breeding too early.  I have a senior buck who is a very experienced and persistent breeder that I could use if part of the problem is trying to breed two first-timers.

2)if she is not sexually mature, how can I know when she is ready?  Age and weight seem to be the only criteria for evaluating readiness.  By those measures, she should be breedable now.  If she's not ready now, what age would you suggest?

3)if she is not sexually mature, and I breed her to an experienced buck, what could result other than her just not conceiving?  Her external genitalia is smaller than my senior does, but seems big enough that there would be no injury from breeding.

Thanks for the help in advance!


Original post - So I've heard from several different sources that I consider reliable that when it comes to breeding does for the first time, they follow the "six months or six lbs" rule.  I have a NZ x giant Chin doe that is six pounds, but only 4 months.  That seems a little young, but she comes from a  really good mothering doe.  She handles really well, seems quite calm.

I'm in no rush, but am considering that she'll hit six months in the winter.  I don't think I want her to kindle the first time in the winter, so I either need to breed her in mid-late October (at the latest) or wait until March for breeding.

If she were yours, even though she is six lbs, how old would you want her before breeding the first time?  Before anyone gets incensed, I am NOT planning to breed her right now...


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## oneacrefarm (Sep 8, 2011)

I was reading any interesting article about commercial rabbits and how 17 weeks was the optimum time to bred for the first time, according to the study...I will see if I can find the link for you. I thought it was 8lbs on the weight, myself....

Shannon
www.oneacrefarmrabbits.com


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## Ms. Research (Sep 9, 2011)

If she was mine I would try the first breeding in Mid October.  By March, she would be too close to that 1 year mark.  Everything I read is 6 months is when you should consider breeding does.  At the 1 year mark it's touch and go and bad things can occur to the doe and her kits.


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## oneacrefarm (Sep 9, 2011)

Ms. Research said:
			
		

> If she was mine I would try the first breeding in Mid October.  By March, she would be too close to that 1 year mark.  Everything I read is 6 months is when you should consider breeding does.  At the 1 year mark it's touch and go and bad things can occur to the doe and her kits.


Yes, that is what I have been told for my Cali's....6mos or 8lbs. Not sure about other breeds...

Here is the research article I was talking about....the relevant topic starts on page 48...interesting reading.

Shannon


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## brentr (Sep 9, 2011)

oneacrefarm said:
			
		

> Ms. Research said:
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I'm not seeing the link.  Please re-post.

Thanks,

Brent


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## Ms. Research (Sep 10, 2011)

brentr said:
			
		

> oneacrefarm said:
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Maybe this is what oneacrefarm means? 

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13363


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## oneacrefarm (Sep 10, 2011)

Doh!  Silly me, left out the link, but yes that is the one...Thanks, Ms.Research.   There is some very interesting stuff in that book...I will likely be reading it quite a while!

Shannon


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## Snowfie (Sep 11, 2011)

6 months?  I've only ever heard 8 months for the meat SIZED breeds.  Maybe they breed californians to grow faster, but a giant cross you should probably wait the full 8 months.  Giants do take longer (I've heard)


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## dbunni (Sep 11, 2011)

We do not breed the meat does by age or weight ... We do not breed before they are of senior age or mature senior weight for their breed.  But past that it is all in the knowledge of the individual animal that makes the decision.  some "mature" faster than others, just as in people.  The soundest decision you can make is in knowing each animal.  And being confident they can handle motherhood ... both body and soul.  

JMO ...


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## oneacrefarm (Sep 13, 2011)

Snowfie said:
			
		

> 6 months?  I've only ever heard 8 months for the meat SIZED breeds.  Maybe they breed californians to grow faster, but a giant cross you should probably wait the full 8 months.  Giants do take longer (I've heard)


Yes, you are correct, I was referring to meat breeds. Actually ARBA recommends breeding Flemish does for the first time no sooner than 9-12 months, since it will be that long before they reach senior weight since they grow slower.

Shannon


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## brentr (Oct 9, 2011)

brentr said:
			
		

> 10/9/2011
> My NZ/Giant Chin cross doe is now 5 months, and a good 7.5 lbs.  I put her in with my NZ buck.  Both of them are first timers.  My buck was clearly willing and trying his best to accomplish the goal.  The doe was not aggressive to him, but clearly not willing - no laying  out or lifting; she stayed kind of bunched in the corners.
> 
> Three questions I'd like input on:
> ...


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## AZ Rabbits (Oct 10, 2011)

I have always bred my NZ and Cali does at just over 4 months and my bucks at around 5-6 months. I've always had great success doing this and they have always been very healthy.

I'm more knowledgeable about the NZ part, but if the Giant Chin varies greatly, someone can chime in. So the following information is for NZ's.

For your question, it may not be sexual immaturity. Sometimes if a doe does this you can force breed them. I do this by putting one hand under their abdomen, raising it up slightly while holding the skin around their neck with the other, pulling slightly toward the front of the head. This raises the tail slightly. If you have an experienced buck, they often jump right on and do their deed. If it is a new buck, they'll often smell your hand and try to figure out what you're doing and do more sniffing than mounting. It all depends on the buck.

Another thing you can do is take the doe out and put her back in after 6 hours or so, or even the next day. Sometimes that makes all the difference in the world and the doe goes from complete refusal to being ready and willing.

To know if the doe is ready, you can also examine their vulva color. White or really pale color is not so ready while darker pink/red/purple is ready. However, their readiness can change in hours.

I know there are people out there who will strongly disagree with me and others who would agree, so in the end you just need to get information and go with what you are comfortable with.


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