# Milking and a few other random newbie questions!



## sunnyside (Sep 5, 2011)

Hello all!

Hope I am not being a pain!!  We just got out two Nubians and one was in milk.  This is VERY new to us, but we think we have the hang of it so far.  I do have a few random questions though...

Is there any way at all that they will not kick the pail over????  The first day I lost every drop of milk right on to the floor!  I was so proud of myself and then WHAM, all of it was gone.  I am now trying to milk with one hand and hold it with the other.  What do you guys do?

Also, how do I know when she is done milking?  I give her a gentle bump when I think she is done to see if she has any more milk to let down, but me being a first timer at this, I am not to sure.   How big should her udder be when I am done milking?

Today she seemed to be a bit fussy when I was halfway through milking her.  Is she trying to tell me something?  Am I hurting her?  I will admit, I practiced on a rubber glove extensively before getting her and I am making sure not to pull down.  

Finally, I have a nibbler!!  She nibbles on everything and anything!  How do you correct this (This is the younger one 7 mos, not the one I am milking).  

Thanks so much in advance!  Really looking forward to your thoughts!!!


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## Bedste (Sep 5, 2011)

Are you feeding her while you milk?  I hope so... this helps.  Also you can get a hobble for pretty cheap.... online.  It is made out of the same nylon that dog collars are made of...it has velcro strap that holds the feet still.  I used one for about a month until I got where I noticed her shifting her weight and i was able to grab the pail.  I still use the hobble when I can tell she is in a bad mood or if I am in pain (neck injury) or if I am still aslee p (lol)    If she sticks her foot in and does not knock it over, I just give it to the chickens or the pig and start again.  It takes some time but sounds like you are doing great.  I am a fairly new at this too.  From what I understand it is really important to get all the milk out. So I bump the udder and then milk some more. I massage the udder and get a bit more.  I am not sure if it is absolutley necessary to get every drop, but I do. 

About your 7 mo old nibbler, I have no clue.  My girl is 6 years old and eats weeds and trees and flowers and all the grain she can get.  I have to really watch her..... and keep her away from the chicken food.

Hope you get some better answers from others who know.

:0)


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## freemotion (Sep 5, 2011)

My first doe was very kicky and I learned to milk pretty fast with one hand, the other hand holding a quart canning jar.  I'd switch hands when one got tired.  You can't lose much milk this way as you put one full jar out of reach and start a new jar.  So even if she kicks one jar, you have one or two...or three....more nice jars of milk.  Eventually I started to dare to put the jar down and milk into it.  Then I started bringing one widemouth jar out and started with that one, since I could two-handed milk into the wide mouth jar when her udder was full, and the second and third jars could have regular mouths because it was easier to aim as her udder emptied.  

Later, I dared milk into a stainless steel stock pot.  I still have to make sure her feed pan stays full or she will kick and stomp.  Before it is empty.  She is the herd queen and knows it.  I can slow her down with a bit of soaked beet pulp mixed into her grain, and I keep a can of alfalfa pellets nearby for when I am slow and she is fast.

The kicking hobbles go above the hocks, squeezing the Achilles tendon and disabling the kicking.  I got a more violent reaction when trying to put the hobbles on and gave it up!

We've come to an understanding now...she gets the best food and plenty of it, and I get the best milk and plenty of it....poop-free.

When are you done milking?  When you squeeze and nothing comes out, or it is consistently just a few drops.  A good producer will always give one more drop.  Kinda like a boy dog, he always has one or two drops left to mark that next tree.  And the next one.  And the next one.  Never empty, always producing more.  So you just have to stop at some point.

She also will sense your mood, and if you are tentative or nervous, which is normal when you are new, she will react to it.  This too shall pass.  Be the boss goat and fake it 'til ya make it. 

As for the nibbler....all goats are nibblers.  The youngsters especially explore their world with their mouths.  What in particular is she nibbling that is a problem?


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## imtc (Sep 5, 2011)

My girl was a huge kicker and I've posted my frustrations about her here before.  Since then she has calmed down a lot and I am now happy with her.  I purchased a hobble however they didn't work for me.  She could either kick them off, or they'd cut her leg by her fighting so hard and rubbing against them and she would actually kick both legs with the hobble on way up over her head in a hand stand it would drive me nuts.  What I ended up doing (and still do) is made a simple noose knot out of thick rope and tie one leg down....loop around the ankle and tie the other end to the legs of the table so she can't kick or move much on the stand.  I also started milking with one hand while holding the cup in the other so I could easily move it out of the way if she got kicky.  Always make sure she has grains to keep her busy and also milk her out.  You'll notice the teat not filling back up with milk easily then massage her udder (you can be kind of rough....have you ever seen her kid nurse?....they are not gentle...lol.)  But you always want to milk her out...it will keep her production up and also helps prevent mastitis.  Then as far as the kicking.....DON'T give up.  She'll eventually give in and do what she's supposed to.  I never thought my girl would (and to think I was considering selling her out of milking frustration).   Good luck


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## kstaven (Sep 6, 2011)

Never have used hobbles on cows or goats. I learned to watch for the leg tensing and then grab the back of the leg firmly so they can't lift it and just keep right on milking. They soon learn that stomping or kicking isn't going to get you to stop.

Had a relative with a goat that loved to kick. He took a small stainless bucket and epoxied  it to an 18" by 18"  sheet of plywood. Goat tried to kick it over a few times and discovered that wasn't going to work. That ended that routine.


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## Roll farms (Sep 6, 2011)

When they're just learning the milking routine I will tolerate a bit of kickiness.  
After a day or two, they'll get hobbled (never had one it wouldn't work on, if put in the right spot...?) and that usually 'cures' the kickiness.  I've only used it 3x in the 10 yrs since I bought it.  Before that, dh was my hobble....they can't budge a 200# man who's holding the tendons just so.

Like KStaven said, you can watch their body and sense when a kick is coming, I just move the bucket out of the way, refill the feed pan, and continue...most of mine are well trained and only fuss if I let the feeder run dry.  Creampuff stomps, Penny KICKS, and the rest just start to wiggle / sidestep / act nervous.

I honestly don't know how you guys who milk one side at a time do it.  I'm a 'hurrier' by nature, that'd drive me insane, esp. w/ my heavier producers.  

I know when they're done because...milk stops coming out.  I don't strip them manually, but I do squeeze until they're empty, then dip and apply udder balm.

Our kids are raised being fed on the milk stand, and we 'fondle' their udders often.  For them it's no big or different thing once they figure out that A) being milked feels better and B) there's always plenty of groceries up there.

I've also found a calm voice and encouragement do wonders.  They sense aggravation and nervousness and respond in kind.

I have big fat boer does who *want* to be milkers, they know the routine and know there's food up there...so they'll wait there turn and hop up there just like the dairy girls.  I give them a squeeze or two and let them think they did big fancy stuff and then send them on their way.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 6, 2011)

*I have big fat boer does who *want* to be milkers, they know the routine and know there's food up there...so they'll wait there turn and hop up there just like the dairy girls.  I give them a squeeze or two and let them think they did big fancy stuff and then send them on their way.*

You are sweet to take the time to do this for these boers.   They just want to be part of the crowd it seems.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 6, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I have big fat boer does who *want* to be milkers, they know the routine and know there's food up there...so they'll wait there turn and hop up there just like the dairy girls.  I give them a squeeze or two and let them think they did big fancy stuff and then send them on their way.


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## freemotion (Sep 6, 2011)

That is so cute, Rolls!

I agree, the three does I raised are a dream on the stand and were right from the first moment I began milking them....because of the prep work I did with them as doelings.  The kicky one....she was my first, purchased as a pregnant doe.  Looking back, a lot of her kickiness was due to my inexperience, and a lot of it was due to her not being worked with properly in earlier lactations.  She was always allowed to be the boss goat.  She wouldn't even lead well.  

One handed milking is a pain but if it is all you know, it isn't really bad.  I could still milk out a gallon before one average song was over on the radio....so maybe 4 minutes?  Although once I could do it in half that time.....there was no going back!


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## sunnyside (Sep 6, 2011)

THANK YOU ALL for the words of encouragement!!  Greatly appreciated!  So with the advice I poured over this morning, milking did go a "bit" smoother for the morning milking.  There was still kicking but I was ready for it this time!! I am thinking she is sensing my nervousness and feeding off of that.  Still trying to get the feel for it.  I just kept thinking I was hurting her and that was why she was fidgety (sp).  Love the beet pulp idea...it takes me a really long time! Might buy me a few extra minutes.  Freemotion....4 minutes?!?!?!?!  Hope I can get somewhere near that time in the future!!!  

Roll, that is TOO funny!  

Thinking I may order a hobbler.  My husband is now mine as well! 

I practiced on that darn glove for weeks before we picked the girls up! Thought I would be better at it than what I actually was! LOL!


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## Roll farms (Sep 6, 2011)

When folks come here to "learn" to milk, what I tell them is "Squeeze it like you mean it."  You don't want to be rough of course, but you'd have to be pretty darn ruthless to be as bad as a 2 mo. old hungry kid.


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## freemotion (Sep 6, 2011)

Maybe the advice for newbies should be to practice on a glove while dodging kicks from a helpful friend......and trying not to spill a jar of milk!


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## nmred (Sep 6, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Maybe the advice for newbies should be to practice on a glove while dodging kicks from a helpful friend......and trying not to spill a jar of milk!


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## Bedste (Sep 6, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Maybe the advice for newbies should be to practice on a glove while dodging kicks from a helpful friend......and trying not to spill a jar of milk!


  ROFL


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## sunnyside (Sep 6, 2011)

That would have been EXTREMELY helpful!!  LOL! Had absolutely no idea she would kick!!!!

Ok, one more quick question....If you milk in the morning and the evening, and you want to pasturize the milk, do you have to do it twice in one day? Or can you hold the milk from the morning until the evening milking and do it all then?


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 6, 2011)

sunnyside said:
			
		

> Is there any way at all that they will not kick the pail over????  The first day I lost every drop of milk right on to the floor!  I was so proud of myself and then WHAM, all of it was gone.  I am now trying to milk with one hand and hold it with the other.  What do you guys do?


My doe currently in milk, Momma, started off quite kicky... and occassionally she will still try a quick udder "itching" kick. Try getting her used to you and your handling by just rubbing down her sides(as if you are giving her a massage) and slowly work towards her underbelly.  Momma LOVES underbelly massages and long scritches. Also, think of her as you would yourself. When a nursing woman needs milk to release, the area needs some gentle massage(much gentler than a kid would knock her udder) and also try offering her some chamomile tea prior to milking. A relaxed doe is a happy doe, and a happy doe is a great milking doe!  



			
				sunnyside said:
			
		

> Also, how do I know when she is done milking?  I give her a gentle bump when I think she is done to see if she has any more milk to let down, but me being a first timer at this, I am not to sure.   How big should her udder be when I am done milking?


This can vary from doe to doe, depending on her udder size.... If when massaging her udder(not knocking it like a kid), you feel a fairly large firm area, then you still have some milking to do.



			
				sunnyside said:
			
		

> Today she seemed to be a bit fussy when I was halfway through milking her.  Is she trying to tell me something?  Am I hurting her?  I will admit, I practiced on a rubber glove extensively before getting her and I am making sure not to pull down.


Sometimes even the slightest sound outside the barn/milking area can make a doe nervous(she is immobilized after-all). For my doe Momma, even a chicken hopping up beside her unexpectedly can cause her to become unsettled. When this happens: I stop milking, pull the collection container away from her feet, and start slowly rubbing her side & back while softly telling her that she is okay, and not to worry(like you would a frightened child). She eventually calms down, and the milking process gets back underway.



			
				sunnyside said:
			
		

> Finally, I have a nibbler!!  She nibbles on everything and anything!  How do you correct this (This is the younger one 7 mos, not the one I am milking).


     GOOD LUCK!! If you figure out how to stop the nibbleys, let *ME* know!


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 6, 2011)

sunnyside said:
			
		

> That would have been EXTREMELY helpful!!  LOL! Had absolutely no idea she would kick!!!!
> 
> Ok, one more quick question....If you milk in the morning and the evening, and you want to pasturize the milk, do you have to do it twice in one day? Or can you hold the milk from the morning until the evening milking and do it all then?


As long as the milk is put in the fridge between milkings, you can actually hold up to 4 days worth of milkings before pasteurizing the lot on the morning of the 5th day. RAW milk keeps up to 5 days in the fridge before starting to sour


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## freemotion (Sep 6, 2011)

Research the benefits of raw milk before making the decision to kill your milk!  www.realmilk.com and www.westonapricefoundation.org


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 6, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Research the benefits of raw milk before making the decision to kill your milk!  www.realmilk.com and www.westonapricefoundation.org


Remember there is a difference between flash pasteurization and commercial pasteurization.... flash pasteurization only kills a tiny fragment of the good bacteria but kills all the bad.
I prefer raw milk, and so do a lot of my friends, but none of us want to take the chance with very young kids or pregnancies, when immune systems are building or lowered. When it comes to goat milk, in particular, unless you know for a fact that the doe tested negative for Johnes, CAE, CL, better to flash pasteurize than to end up sick.


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## sunnyside (Sep 7, 2011)

I would prefer raw myself as well, but with the kids and the fact that I am new to this, I am going to flash pasturize.  I was trying to think of a way to pasturize half and leave half raw but worry that I would mix them up.  Once the kiddoes are a little older, I would like for us all to drink raw.


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## freemotion (Sep 7, 2011)

That is why I suggested a bit of research.....raw milk is very good for the kiddos if your milking practices are clean and your animals are healthy.  Raw milk contains multiple redundant systems for dealing with pathogenic bacteria, including enzymes and beneficial bacteria.  All pasteurization methods kill these.


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## sunnyside (Sep 7, 2011)

Free, I am really worried about sanitation.  So much reading suggests you, the goat, the pail, the barn, etc... have to be super super clean.  My barn is clean, but actually how clean is it?  That worries me.  Especially being new.  But then the whole point of our getting a dairy goat was to have fresh milk...


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## Lorelai (Sep 7, 2011)

I've been obsessed with researching the benefits of raw milk lately. I've listened to a lot of YouTube interviews, read a lot of articles, and am currently deeply immersed in The Raw Milk Revolution: Behind America's Emerging Battle Over Food Rights by David Gumpert, which is very interesting. Anyway, Mark McAfee did a great interview with Dr. Mercola, and Mercola himself has done some articles and endorsed the benefits of raw milk. Here is a link to the interview: 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/01/mark-mcafee-interview.aspx. 

It's an hour or so, but well worth it! Anyway, cleanliness is of course imperative to having good, clean, living milk. But the obsession with sterile milking environments? That actually stems from the pasteurization process. Because pasteurization kills _all_ of the bacteria, it is much easier for a harmful pathogen to infiltrate the dead milk and turn it into a bully's playground paradise, because all of the beneficial bacteria that would normally stand up to the bullies and keep them in check has been neutralized. There are a lot of testimonials from those who either begin drinking raw milk at a young age, or those who raised their kids on it, and those are the people who have stellar immune systems today, the ones who are rarely sick as adults, because they were so healthy as children. They didn't get chronic ear infections, or all of those other things that require often excessive antibiotic use, which weakens the immune system for life. I won't get started on the myriad of vaccinations that infants and children receive these days, but certainly, I believe that plays a part in weakened immune systems as well, along with insufficient nutrition. 

Of course, it is _entirely_ up to you whether or not you pasteurize your milk for your family. That is the whole point of fighting the good fight over food rights, so we _all_ have the opportunity to make these decisions for ourselves. I'm sure that flash pasteurization is not so bad as commercial, but I've really begun to question my own fears over food and why I have them. Are they there because there's real danger, or is that danger to the coffers of modern agriculture and a government that endorses and subsidizes it? I've recently begun drinking raw cow's milk, because that's what's available to me without bankrupting me (raw goat's milk goes for $20/gallon bought from the store around here, and cow's milk is $9/gallon, still high, but more doable). I guess that's what happens when you criminalize real food - the price skyrockets and there's never enough to meet demand. Though, for the record, raw milk is legal to sell in Washington state, if strict guidelines are met, but that hasn't been good enough for California.

Oh, and if you're worried about your raw milk not storing (and it will sour, not rot, like pasteurized milk, but I think there are many traditional recipes that actually make use of sour milk), you can always turn it into kefir, which is crazy good for you and will extend the shelf life considerably.


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## kstaven (Sep 7, 2011)

sunnyside said:
			
		

> Free, I am really worried about sanitation.  So much reading suggests you, the goat, the pail, the barn, etc... have to be super super clean.  My barn is clean, but actually how clean is it?  That worries me.  Especially being new.  But then the whole point of our getting a dairy goat was to have fresh milk...


There is a really easy way to get a fairly good idea of how clean your procedure is.

Milk your goat.
Get the milk chilled quickly. Below 37 degrees f. May mean testing your fridge temp to ensure it is cold enough.
Taste the milk the next day.
Put back in fridge.
Taste every day there after and note when the milk starts to get a noticeable goaty taste.
Continue the taste test until the milk is getting an obvious sour taste.

If your practices are generally good you should get a minimum of 7 days before a taste shift occurs.
14 - 16 days before souring.

I know this is not very scientific in methodology. But it is about the minimum I have seen for goat milk that will pass a bulk tank test.

Your best way to be even more sure of where you are in your practice is to send a sample in for testing.


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## freemotion (Sep 7, 2011)

sunnyside said:
			
		

> Free, I am really worried about sanitation.  So much reading suggests you, the goat, the pail, the barn, etc... have to be super super clean.  My barn is clean, but actually how clean is it?  That worries me.  Especially being new.  But then the whole point of our getting a dairy goat was to have fresh milk...


I've made a lot of cheese with ten day old milk (not anymore, I have four does in milk now, yay!) and last year found a stray quart of milk in the back of the fridge that was SIX weeks old and not sour!  I took a sip and it was ever so slightly goaty.....I finally knew what people were talking about.  The next day, it was very goaty, and the day after, it was sour.  This was because the cream had formed a seal on the top and since the milk was undisturbed and very clean, it kept until it was disturbed.  Don't ya love those accidental science experiments that take place in a crazy-busy kitchen? 

OK, just sit back and close your eyes (peek so you can read this) and imagine yourself milking your doe in your barn.  First you pick up a mucky chicken then start milking....wait....nope.  First you wash your hands, gather your supplies....jars or pail right from the dishwasher, which sanitizes with heat.  You have a container with udder wash and rags.  You go straight to the barn and get the doe and lead her to the stand.  Goats are very clean by nature, and won't have the mucky teats and udders you see on cows in typical dairy situations.  (Notice I didn't say ALL cows in ALL situations, so settle back down, cow owners!)  If your stalls are properly bedded, your doe will be very clean.

But first, after locking her in the stanchion with her grain, you will take your rag, wring it out, wipe her teats down, wipe her udder down, taking your time to stimulate milk let-down like a the mouth of a hungry kid will.  Take your rag and clean your own hands again, and wipe her belly, brushing the hair forward and getting any loose hairs, hay, shavings, etc off of her belly that might fall into your pail or jar.  Your stanchion is in an area where no animals have access to it, so it is as clean as you left it about 12 hours before.  Mine is in my hay storage area in the cold weather.  When the mosquitoes are out, it moves up into a corner of the garage.

Then milk.  It goes pretty quickly.  If for some reason she kicks or swats a fly with her foot and something dark and mysterious lands in the milk.....the hens or the dogs get that batch.  It will be very rare.  Extremely rare.  Almost never.  When you finish milking successfully, you will put a cover on your container and set it aside....I have a set of shelves next to my stand with the things I need and space for the milk containers.  I wipe these shelves down whenever they start looking dirty.

You will finish caring for the doe, then you'll  go filter your milk into another jar or jars from the dishwasher and will put it right into the  fridge.  I have never bothered to do anything else to cool the milk more quickly and I have no problems with milk souring.  Your clean filter will be waiting to be used, since you prepared it before going out to milk.

If you are like me, you will nuke a little water in a mug and dissolve some cocoa and sweetener, then add some of the warm-from-the-goat milk to the mug and drink it fresh squeezed.  24 oz every morning, baby, starts my day off right!  I taught myself to like it lukewarm so I wouldn't risk killing any of the beneficial enzymes.  I love it now and my mouth waters while I'm milking in anticipation.  

OK, you can open your eyes now.   I hope you can see that nothing need contaminate the milk, and you do not have to boil or bleach anything.  

If it makes you feel any better, I researched for two years before my first goat, and the day I was to take my first sip, I made sure I had two days off since I was convinced that I would get very sick.  I was fine.  In fact, that first sip sent me into an intense craving for more, and really, I don't like plain milk and never drink it, interestingly enough, since I am such a raw milk advocate now.  I always flavor it or make stuff with it or use it in things.

I make sure my elderly parents get plenty of milk and dairy products, even my fragile mother.  It is very good for them.  If I had children, even a tiny infant of mine would get this milk with absolutely no reservations on my part.  I've come a long way since I first heard of the benefits of raw milk from my doctor, and I don't expect you or anyone else to make a 180 degree turn based on what I have to say.....but I hope you do some research and experimenting of your own.  Raw milk has been VERY healing for my digestive issues, and this was really brought home to me after my first season of milking when I had to dry my doe off later in her second pregnancy and I was without milk.  Lots of my symptoms came back.  The following year, I froze a LOT of milk to get me through the dry time.


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## kstaven (Sep 7, 2011)

With all that cheese you make. Keep the whey and drink chilled or with a little fruit juice. It is a great pick-me-up drink on days when you are dragging.


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## freemotion (Sep 7, 2011)

I have never tried this, but I really should.  I know all the best bacteria are in that whey and I have a jar of it in my fridge right now for boosting veggie ferments like salsa and sauerkraut and pickles.  My mother used to sneak whey into EVERYTHING....that woman would not through anything away!  (Guess the apple didn't fall that far from the tree!  )  But I have a lifelong aversion to whey.  Guess it is time to get over it, huh?


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## kstaven (Sep 8, 2011)

You lacto ferment I take it.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 8, 2011)

Some random tips about chilling milk-  I had to turn my fridge WAY down because it wasn't keeping the milk cold enough.  It has to be just above freezing (and sometimes some random veggies will freeze) to keep it freshest.  Also, don't shake the milk!  I had been shaking it every time I got milk out of the jar and that damages the milk and makes it taste off.  Also, sometimes I've found keeping the jars of milk in a cooler of ice water chills it down so much quicker than just putting it in the fridge alone.  If I have ice in my cooler (DH gets ice for free at work) I'll do that. If not, it has to just go in the fridge to chill.


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## freemotion (Sep 8, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> You lacto ferment I take it.


Yes, I do.  The salsa is the best!  Also the mustard.  Yum.  Oh, and salad dressing herb mix, my own invention.  Big jar of diced garlic.  Horseradish.  There is a great (LONG!) fermenting thread over on sufficientself with lots of ideas, recipes, instructions for anyone reading this and thinking


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## sunnyside (Sep 8, 2011)

"If you are like me, you will nuke a little water in a mug and dissolve some cocoa and sweetener, then add some of the warm-from-the-goat milk to the mug and drink it fresh squeezed.  24 oz every morning, baby, starts my day off right!  I taught myself to like it lukewarm so I wouldn't risk killing any of the beneficial enzymes.  I love it now and my mouth waters while I'm milking in anticipation.  "

I have no idea how to quote something so I just put quotation marks around it???




Free, This was WONDERFUL this morning!!!!!  Yum!!! Glad you posted that!

Now one more thing (As if I have not asked enough! LOL!)

What happens when you worm the goats?  I read you are to just give the milk to the cats etc... for a few days.  What about with an herbal wormer?  Do any of you still drink it?  Make soap, etc... until the withdrawl period is over?

And I must say...I am so impressed with you guys!!  So much info here.  I think I have learned more here in a few weeks then from all of my countless goat books.  I like the "real life" advice!!!  Thanks again!!


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## freemotion (Sep 8, 2011)

sunnyside said:
			
		

> I have no idea how to quote something so I just put quotation marks around it???


You hit "quote" instead of "reply" and then edit out what you don't want....that is what I just did!

Glad you liked the fresh-squeezed chocolate!  As for worming, there is no withdrawal time for herbal dewormers.  For Ivomec, I think the bottle says 30 days if I remember correctly.  Yes, soapmaking or the other critters.  I haven't held it for 30 days, though, I just wait a few days.  But I've only used it twice on a lactating do so far.  I have one doe that tends to have more trouble with stomach worms than the others and I now just double her herbal dose.  So far, so good this year.  I do run fecals, though, so I can monitor what works and what doesn't, since the same routine that works on one farm might not work on the one down the road.  And it might work on most of the goats but not on certain ones in the herd.  Et cetera.


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## kstaven (Sep 8, 2011)

I agree with the no withdrawel time but with a caution if the milk is going to others. There can be a reactions for people with certain food sensitivities or people on specific medications when using herbs. The odds are pretty low but something to be aware of. A very good herbal desk reference is your friend here.


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