# Goats or cow??



## rondam24 (May 10, 2010)

I posted this in the Everything Else-Cows forum as well... Hope that's okay. 

We know we want a dairy animal. We've done a lot of research but we can't decide if we should get 2 does or one Dexter cow.

We know that the goats are cheaper - 2 doe kids are about 1/3 the price of a Dexter heifer. 

_Goat Pros:_
- 1/3 the price
- More readily available
- Easy to keep clean/better poops

_Goat Cons:_
- Notorious escape artists
- What the heck do ya do with all those kids?? We couldn't eat them. 

_Dexter Pros:_
- Can make butter
- Easier to contain
- Only one or two babies, and we eat beef

_Dexter Cons:_
- Harder to find in upstate NY
- Messy poops/ harder to keep clean


So for you people with experience: do you have anything to add? What made you choose one or the other? 

It's much appreciated!


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## Mea (May 10, 2010)

rondam24 said:
			
		

> I posted this in the Everything Else-Cows forum as well... Hope that's okay.
> 
> We know we want a dairy animal. We've done a lot of research but we can't decide if we should get 2 does or one Dexter cow.
> 
> ...


I do not know a thing about Dexter cattle.

  I do know why i prefered  dairy goats.     1.   They are smaller.  When my children were (much) younger,  we had the goats because the children Could handle them... with less chance of getting hurt.   2.   the damage to the ground is less.  The  weight of a goat on hooves  digs up the ground less.   3. They actually can be taught to respect a fence. ( usually)  (sometimes) (maybe)      The young ones really are cute !

  cons... the young ones are so cute !   it is terribly difficult for me to get rid of them !  I can picture us being over-run with little goaties...IF  DH didn't put his foot down.

  Then one must take into account just what they Really like.  Good luck.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (May 10, 2010)

Well, I don't know anything about Dexter cows either, and I'm new to goats, but I have learned a lot and some of it has been a surprise. 

My goats don't try to escape. Unless they see something like rosebushes on the other side of the fence. Even then they don't actually want to escape -- just eat the untouched plants. They would NEVER wander away. Too strong of a herd instinct I guess. I actually let them out of the fence if I want to grain one without the others, clear a patch of weeds ( got a LOT of poison ivy and the goats are crazy for it!), or just let my littlest bottle baby tag along. She used to sleep in the house and she follows me like a puppy. 

Most of my goats come when called too. They are really smart. Routine, herd dynamics, and especially food play a role in having them where I want them when. 

By the looks of it, kids are easily sold here. Bucklings probably runmore risk of being dinner, but especially if you have registered goats from good milking lines you can get a pretty penny for the doelings. Unregistered (all of mine are) go for a fraction sometimes, but they DO sell. 

Goats also do a good job of browsing and clearing out weeds. Of course if you want good milk supply you have to give them quality feed as well. I don't know how much a Dexter cow eats but my dairy feed lasts a good while with only 2 does and 2 doelings eating it. 

You DO want to look into breeding as well, since you don't get milk without it. Here ther essentially is no stud service for goats, so I ended up buying a buckling and wethering a pal for him, which I hadn't anticipated before I got started. It's something else you want to be informed of in advance. I hadn't wanted to keep bucks myself, but it's better than grabbing one just for breeding and producing substandard kids. Just something else to consider.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (May 10, 2010)

Oh, hey, and I forgot ...  
 !!!

That's the first time I've gotten to say that!  I like your avatar too -- with the cow and dolpin!


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## mossyStone (May 11, 2010)

I'd love to have a cow someday, but for now we love our dairy goats.... They are just so much fun.... and we make butter! Ice cream, milk shakes ect it's great! oHH One thing i like is i can have more  than one or 2 cows need a bit more room 


Mossy Stone Farm


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## clarmayfarm (May 11, 2010)

Hi, 

What about a Jersey or Holstein heifer? They are not a "heritage" breed, but they are wonderful mothers and good milkers. Jerseys, in particular, produce milk with good butterfat and protein content...great for cheesemaking at home, and making butter.  Often you can find a milk cow that is not the farm's highest producer, and get a bargain on that animal. They will make more than enough milk for someone who has a family farm and will milk by hand or milker bucket. 

I am biased against goats:

Goat Milk can have off flavors or strong taste  - many people do not care for it.

Goats get loose so easily!  They seem to find fence problems/holes almost like they have telepathic abilities.

The extra "brown gold" you get from your milk cow is a great natural fertilizer, and you will have plenty for a good garden. Compost it in piles and it will be like black gold for you.

MBGF


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (May 11, 2010)

Not to be argumentative by any means but ... While I hear it is possible for a particular goat to produce milk with a stronger flavor (I think breed can have a bearing on it) I have to say that our goats' milk tastes JUST like I remember cow's milk tasting when I was a kid.   Much better than the stuff I used to buy at the supermarket! It has no "off" or "goaty" flavor at ALL. I think in general if you handle the milk properly (and don't have a buck's smell involved) you shouldn't get that?  I can pretty much guarantee you could not tell the difference between our (or others I've tasted) goat's fresh milk and fresh cow's milk. 

I had thought of a cow as well so it's not that I'm prejudiced against them. I still need SOMEthing to eat all the grass growing in the pasture (llamas and goats both prefer weeds).  And we do like beef!  I'm glad you mentioned about the cheaper lesser producing cow. Perhaps we can someday look into a cow-calf pair with such a cow who has a bull calf. Thanks for mentioning it!


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## SarahFair (May 11, 2010)

I have a 5 foot welded wire fence and my goats havent ever gotten out of it.. Dont even try to


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## PattySh (May 11, 2010)

I have both. I have a little herd of goats and a Jersey/Holstein heifer that is 6 months old.  I like goats milk and goat cheese but some family members like cows milk. I also want to make butter, different types of cheeses and fresh whipped cream is awesome so needed a cow.  The cow will give the qty of milk I want for cheese. I did not want to start out with an adult cow I could not handle so figured growing up a baby is smart for me. I got her from an organic dairy and she was only $150 my xmas present to myself.  I did look into Dexters but they don't give alot of milk for their size. Tinkerbelle is halter broke and is really easy to handle. Got a couple of male calves (now steers) to keep her company. Pic taken ar 2 months old. Having had several over the years, I think  cows are just as likely to escape fencing as goats. Cows will venture farther from the barn willinglly. My adult does stay close to the barn and are not really fenced in. Would not chance the heifer loose. Having tried  both cow and goat raw mik, goats milk is sweeter. Made mistakes with milk last go round with goats and have learned alot.  I don't like pasturized  milk  I think the milk tastes "cooked" family agrees.  I only use stainless steel milking buckets and keep milk in glass jars with plastic tops, I think plastic containers taste the milk.   I strain my milk and it and goes right into the jar, jar capped right after it comes out of the goat while she is still on the stand.  If milk tastes off either the animal is eating something, milk is sitting open in your barn  or maybe she has an infection. Chevon is delicious, tastes like delicate beef don't look at the extra boys as pets. I vote for get  both!


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## ksalvagno (May 11, 2010)

It really depends on your space. Do you have enough room for a cow or two? I prefer goats because I don't have enough room for a cow and I prefer the "berries" of a goat that naturally get spread around than to the big cow plops from a cow. I'd much rather clean up the berries in the stall than cow manure. My goats haven't tried to get out. As far as finding holes in the fence, they are no different than other animals.

LPOH, I'm surprised your llama prefers weeds because my alpacas and llamas much prefer good grass. I have orchard grass, Kentucky Bluegrass (for pasture) and brome in my field and they definitely pick the grass over the weeds.

Keep in mind other things like hay and feed. A cow is going to go through a lot more and do you have the money for it? Cost is a huge factor in deciding what to get. Vet bills are vet bills so plan on those as well.

For the most part, if your goat milk tastes funny, then your sanitation practices of your equipment is suspect or you left it sit out in the barn while you did some chores instead of taking it right in the house.


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## Heavenly Springs Farm (May 11, 2010)

I vote both if you have the room. I have goats and love them, but I want a milk cow, too.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (May 11, 2010)

Venturing ot here but ... I do think it's the llama that is eating the pasture grass. I had to cut it once but since then (so far) it is staying under contol. I do see her grazing it and I pretty much never see any of the goats eating grass. The llama does spend more time trying to get the leaves she can't reach on the trees though and certain of the weeds are definite favorites. My experience has been as you have animals that pick out the weeds, the grass takes over and when that happens I'm afraid I might be out there cutting it again. I have a little flock of geese to turn out there though ...

And back on topic -- I like the votes for both, lol. If I can do that in future I will. I would like a greater qty of milk and esp a better variety of cheeses. Fresh whipped cream sounds nice too. .  Even though cow plops don't lol -- that's what a compost pile is for I suppose. 

so far I'm not quite far enough ahead on my milk to make cheese or soap and forget butter. Sigh .... Maybe when these kids are fully weaned (and SOMEone has started nursing my main milk doe -- I know she can't sometimes be failing to make milk on one side and a couple days later only half filling the other. Sneaky greedy kids, lol!)

eta: Patty, the pic of your calf just loaded and she's a cutie!  Looks like she has a heart on her face.


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## chandasue (May 11, 2010)

I'm on the goat side. Look into A1-A2 milk issues. There was an interview in Acres USA awhile back with the guy that wrote "The Devil in the Milk", or check the book out at the library to get all the details. All goats are A2 and doesn't cause milk phlegm after drinking it, or the host of other A1 potential problems. Not all cows are A1 but most in the US are so you'd be looking at testing specific individuals for the protein mutation, if that's even possible or a concern for you. And no off flavors here. The way it's handled is most important in that area, getting it cold as fast as possible. You can still make butter with it but you just need a cream separator and they're not too bad on ebay. (I haven't bought one yet, just thinking about it.) And I throw the manure right in the garden (as opposed to having to compost the chicken poo due to it being too rich for the garden straight away) and use the soiled bedding in the paths to keep the weeds down. They're perfect for my needs.


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## chandasue (May 11, 2010)

You can download the pdf of the Acres USA article here .


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## patandchickens (May 11, 2010)

I debated the whole cow-vs-goat thing myself. Cow seemed too big and expensive and more milk than we realistically needed, and not sure I wanted to milk nearly all year round. Goat seemed challenging to fence, not sure about 'goatiness' of milk, and oh my gosh goat kids are SO cute, what if I had to sell some for meat if I couldn't find homes for them.

So I have sheep 

It is working so far, although, ask me next year when I'm (hopefully) milking the two dairybred ones (right now just got a cranky little shetland that doesn't give much milk)

Good luck with your decision,

Pat


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## promiselandfarm (May 11, 2010)

Depends on your needs. Cows will not jump on you car and get out as easily as a goat will. A goat has to have more attention on fencing than a cow. But can and will eat almost anything requires less space. A cow requires more space. Depends on your personal taste as to what type of milk and butter you like so that one would really be up to you. Goats can almost mass produce. I have a nanny who has three at a time each time and one that has twins. Most cows only have one at a time and only once a year. Goats only take 5 months so freshening time is less. I have had both prefer the cow to the goats but right now have the goats... so  there is my 2 cents take it or leave  oh and the electric fencing does not bother them at all they just walk right through.


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## rondam24 (May 11, 2010)

Wow - looks like the majority voted for having both! Actually I would like both - goats to eat the weeds and a cow for the grass. We have 3 acres of old field that has quite a variety of grasses with some goldenrod, briars  and a few small pine trees mixed in. The field hasn't been cultivated for 20 years or so. I know that goats would love the briars but am unsure if they would eat the grass. It's already getting quite tall. From what some of you have said maybe the goats would clear out the weeds so that more grass would grow and then the field would be better suited to a cow in a year or two?

There are quite a few unregistered Alpines around and most of the cows are Holsteins (too big). I would love a small Jersey or Dexter (42" tall) But they are hard to find in upsate NY (special hello to Mea!) This may sound stupid but for some reason the idea of a family cow seems more nostalgic to me. More in tune with my roots. But goat berries are better than cow pies! Actually that is a concern - right now we are buying raw milk from a local dairy farm and whenever I go in the barn, even if it's just for a few minutes, the smell comes home with me. It seems to cling to my hair. I wonder if that would be an issue with only one cow?

Realistically, I guess my choices will be limited to what's available locally. We are trying to find goat farmers and a farm with Jerseys nearby that we can visit to see the different breeds.


Thanks to all!


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## Mea (May 12, 2010)

rondam24 said:
			
		

> From what some of you have said maybe the goats would clear out the weeds so that more grass would grow and then the field would be better suited to a cow in a year or two?
> 
> There are quite a few unregistered Alpines around and most of the cows are Holsteins (too big). I would love a small Jersey or Dexter (42" tall) But they are hard to find in upsate NY (special hello to Mea!) This may sound stupid but for some reason the idea of a family cow seems more nostalgic to me.
> 
> Thanks to all!


(waving back)...

  The goats would help clear the fields.   Also if You sub-divided the field into smaller areas...it would confine them a bit and encourage them to clean up a bit more.

  What part of upstate NY are You ??   The show season is about to start up with one in Altamont at the end of May.  Then a couple in Syracuse in June, i believe.

   Google is a good wayto locate breeders of specific breeds. When You find one...often they have links to others.  ( it's fun chasing information)

    Nostalgia is Great !!   Reality is yet another thing.   DH  really, really wanted a Jersey.   She was so cute as a calf.     We loved her ...she loved us.    Until she got bigger... and wanted to be with us, and the danged fence tried to stop her !   Once she got thru a couple times... we could not keep her in.   DH  had sell her.


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## rondam24 (May 12, 2010)

Chandasue, thanks for mentioning A1/A2 milk. I had never heard of that before. And unfortunately when I called the local livestock vet to ask if  he tested for it he said he had no idea what I was talking about! This is a concern to me. I have been buying coconut milk($11 gallon) or lactaid ($7 gallon) for my daughter because regular milk causes her to cough or clear her throat constantly. After switching to raw milk these symptoms have greatly diminished. So this seems to be another point in favor of goats -unless I can find a way to get a potential cow tested. If we are going to raise our own milk I want it to be as healthy as possible for my family's sake.

Mea, I live near Oneonta. We are going to visit a small goat farm Friday. My daughter googled for me and found a few others that we can visit in Delaware and Otsego counties.
My children are very impatient-want to get an animal now but we still have plenty of time to look around. We don't even have a barn/shed or fence up yet!


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## chandasue (May 13, 2010)

rondam24: I'm not surprised the vet isn't in the know about A1/A2... The US is a bit behind on these things. Kudos to New Zealand for taking the issue seriously. It's a really interesting article and I've been meaning to request the book at the library. We've felt much better since switching to raw goat milk and I just have to laugh to myself when people pull their noses up at the thought of drinking raw milk in general, much less goat milk. If they only knew...


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## Mea (May 17, 2010)

rondam24 said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Mea, I live near Oneonta. We are going to visit a small goat farm Friday. My daughter googled for me and found a few others that we can visit in Delaware and Otsego counties.
> My children are very impatient-want to get an animal now but we still have plenty of time to look around. We don't even have a barn/shed or fence up yet!


So..........how did the visit(s) go.........??                being nosey here......


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## rondam24 (May 17, 2010)

The visit went great. This woman has had goats for the past 30 years. She has 3 milking does; a lamancha, a nubian and a 3/4 lamancha 1/4 nubian mix. Plus 5 kids. She was very friendly; let my kids milk the mixed breed and feed the kids their bottles.

 She wants to sell the lamancha/nubian doe because she is planning on keeping two of the kids. It is black and white and looks like a mini holstein! She is 3 years old, is a first freshener , was giving about a gallon a day but now gives about 2and1/2 pounds a day. Had no trouble kidding and is very friendly. We looked her over well and she looks very healthy. So we are seriously tempted to buy her. 

However this woman takes a more natural/organic approach towards goat raising so none of her goats have had any vaccines or blood tests. She says that she has never had to call in a vet for these 3 goats (and she's had one for 7 years) so maybe this isn't really an issue. What do you think?


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## Holsteno (May 17, 2010)

cow


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## Hound (May 17, 2010)

Something that hasn't been mentioned...

Cows and goats will both eat the weeds, but if you're planning on drinking the milk you won't want them to.  Certain weeds can taint the flavour of the milk to the point that it is undrinkable.  

Goats are a far better choice for the new hobby dairy farmer.  They are much easier to handle, not nearly as dangerous, far cheaper to feed, more portable (you can put them in a large dog crate rather than requiring a trailer), and you can milk them more comfortably on a milk stand in a building out of the elements.  If they defecate during milking it is not a big deal, there is no dirty tail to hit you in the face, and a goat kick is pretty insignificant.  If you do have call to use a vet it is far easier to load a goat up and take it there than find a vet who will make home calls or try and put a sick cow in a trailer.


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## Mea (May 18, 2010)

rondam24 said:
			
		

> The visit went great. This woman has had goats for the past 30 years. She has 3 milking does; a lamancha, a nubian and a 3/4 lamancha 1/4 nubian mix. Plus 5 kids. She was very friendly; let my kids milk the mixed breed and feed the kids their bottles.
> 
> She wants to sell the lamancha/nubian doe because she is planning on keeping two of the kids. It is black and white and looks like a mini holstein! She is 3 years old, is a first freshener , was giving about a gallon a day but now gives about 2and1/2 pounds a day. Had no trouble kidding and is very friendly. We looked her over well and she looks very healthy. So we are seriously tempted to buy her.
> 
> However this woman takes a more natural/organic approach towards goat raising so none of her goats have had any vaccines or blood tests. She says that she has never had to call in a vet for these 3 goats (and she's had one for 7 years) so maybe this isn't really an issue. What do you think?


It could be a good 'starter type' goat.   We all make mistakes ... and sometimes it is better to learn on an animal that we haven;t put out a ton of money on.  ( ask me how i know....     )

  If coat is shiny, eyes clear  gums pink... hooves neat ... she could be good.  I would do CD&T shots to up her protection.   Her milk production will most likely drop off when she is moved... but You might be able to recover it some with feed.   

   Now...on to building fences and shelter........


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (May 18, 2010)

Anecdotal "evidence" is not the most useful, especially when as limited as mine but just as an aside ...

My six goats came from two sources. Four of them came from a farm that routinely vaccinates, tested recently, worms on a rotating schedule (rotating wormers every 3 months), etc. Two others came from a farm where the goats were tested years ago, no vacs given, and the only meds are Mollys wormers. 

Guess which lot have given me REPEATED health problems of all sorts? I'm learning much faster than I ever wanted to ...  They are overall good at recovering but the 4 from the farm that did everything  on schedule have ALL had problems and most of them several problems each. The 2 from the other farm have been perfectly healthy. Their only issue is that they ate mostly hay and grain and switching them to a more heavily browsing diet seems to have perhaps slowed their growth? Then again I am comparing them to a dam-raised kid who I suspect is milking out TWO does most days, so perhaps it's an unfair comparison. They have adjusted nicely to browse though and both look heavily pregnant by the end of each day. ALL my goats do except that milk-stealing kid lol. No symptoms whatsoever. 

I'm not arguing for or against either type of husbandry -- that would be very presumptuous of me given my limited experience. I'm only saying that it's certainly possible for goats raised with a natural approach to be healthier than those raised with a heavily "medical" 
approach.

I would definitely agree that it can be netter to learn on cheaper animals too. That's really a large part of why I chose my goats. There  are certainly better bred ones out there, giving more milk and whose kids will probably bring 5x as much as the kids of mine will. And maybe in a couple-few years I'll buy some goats like that. 

In the meantime I'm learning a LOT and getting milk too. . It works for me. . And I think the goats are pretty happy as well.


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## Mea (May 18, 2010)

Lil-patch-of-heaven said:
			
		

> Anecdotal "evidence" is not the most useful, especially when as limited as mine but just as an aside ....
> 
> Guess which lot have given me REPEATED health problems of all sorts? .


Anecdotal "evidence" works for me !   Sometimes finding out a different way of thinking about something opens whole new horizons.

  The animals from the 'natural approach'  would most likely have "self culled".  Survival of the fittest and all that.  While with the medications in the other herd...animals that perhaps would not have survived, in the natural, did Because of the medical intervention.  And lived to reproduce themselves.  Makes sense to me.


  Anecdote....  we had a neighbor who had some sheep.   Never !! grained them.  They got their water from a crick or ate snow in the winter.  Hay...not usually...they would dig thru the snow for dried grasses.  They had not been sheared in four years.  Lamb crop...dismal failure. only about one or two would make it. Some years non did.   I really believe that those animals could have made some really good animals for someone who cared...cuz they were Survivors !  They HAD to be to live there.     ( fortunately someone offered a few $$ and the neighbor sold them !)    That was as extreme a natural approach as i ever care to see.   There should be a happy medium in the natural approach.  Neither too much, nor too little.     ( i shall step down now. )


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## jerseygirl (May 19, 2010)

I to have both. I have a Jersey cow and a whole herd of goats. The decision usually comes down to space, feed availability, how much milk you can use,  what products you would like to make with it and personal preference. I enjoy both cows and goats and both have pro's and cons. My cow is definitely a whole lot more time and work than my goats, eats more, poops more, needs more grazing area but she also makes  more milk but also  good cream that is awesome for butter, cheese and ice cream. My goats on the other hand are much easier to care for, take care of clearing all the willow that grows  crazy on my land, eat way less that my cow and produce well for goats. Goats milk can be used for making incredible cheeses, yogurt, keifer and all your extra can be used to fatten up just about any animal you would like to raise for meat...lambs, pigs, and even calves.
Is there any reason you are considering Dexter cattle versus an actual dairy breed? They are a multi purpose cattle that is smaller than many dairy breeds but definitely more noisy and can be a little feisty. They are a very hardy breed  though especially in cooler climates. People choose different breeds and critters for their farms and the bottom line is you have to find what fits you best. Good luck


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## rondam24 (May 21, 2010)

jerseygirl said:
			
		

> I to have both. I have a Jersey cow and a whole herd of goats. ...
> Is there any reason you are considering Dexter cattle versus an actual dairy breed? They are a multi purpose cattle that is smaller than many dairy breeds but definitely more noisy and can be a little feisty.


We've been thinking about Dexters for several reasons. First, we only have about 2 1/2 acres of pasture, and I don't think that's enough to keep a full-size dairy animal on pasture for 6 months.

The second reason is that the main care-givers will be myself and my two teen daughters. The full size breeds seem a bit intimidating!
 And we don't need 5+ gallons of milk a day. We'd be swimming in milk! 

Unfortunately we haven't been able to find anybody around here with Dexters. So I've never seen one for real. I had heard they are gentle.

It seems like we are leaning more towards goats but I do dream of the butter and cream.


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## Henrietta23 (May 21, 2010)

I know I have seen goats' milk butter either at our local food co-op or at Whole Foods. It must be possible to make butter from goats' milk?


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## freemotion (May 21, 2010)

It is difficult to get enough cream from goat's milk to make butter.  Very little will rise to the top, so you need a separator, at about $400.  I can get a few tablespoons from a gallon of milk that has been sitting in the fridge for a few days, and it is tricky.  The milk doesn't have the carotenes that cow's milk has, so the cream is very white and the butter is very white.

If you use a separator, you end up with skim milk when you are done.   Good for the pigs and chickens....

I saved cream in containers in the freeze for weeks and weeks, until I had enough to make butter.  I made about six little 4 oz jars... precious stuff!  I think it is about $45 per pound online.  So I have had some seriously gourmet popcorn....topped with goat butter and grated feta, to die for!

But you really need a Jersey cow for serious butter making.  Oh, one day!

2.5 acres of pasture should be plenty, especially if you use intensive rotational grazing methods.


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## Yates Dairy (May 25, 2010)

I would say 2 goats.. I would usually say cows but (and this is just my opinion) I would want 2 cows instead of one to keep each other company.


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