# Doe went off feed and milk production down by 1/3....possible UTI?



## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

We have a doe that is 2 yrs old.  She had her first kid on the 2nd of February and all has been just fine.  

Last night, out of the blue she only ate half her feed.  This alarmed me because she is quite the little porker when it comes to her grain.  Her milk production was down by a half cup.  (we milk her and bottle feed the baby).  No fever.

This morning, she is refusing all grain and her milk production is down by a cup.  No fever but she does have mucus in one nostril.  It has some green tint to it but mostly white (sorry to be so gross).  Still no fever.  She seems a little tired/dopey...just off.

We have her off by herself as of about a half hour ago and she is completely quiet.  Typically she would be hollering non-stop to be with the herd.

She is wormed and has no signs of mastitis.  No bloat, no fever, checked her coloring and eyelids are pink, etc.  The only signs I have to go on are the fact that she went off her feed and has mucus in one nostril.  

Any suggestions?

ETA:  "possible UTI?" in title and post everything below this line.

I brought her into our basement in a pen I keep down in the basement garage.  She was still eating on hay but refusing grain altogether or anything else but hay.  She is drinking water.  However, she urinated and it is very dark and stinks badly.  I am guessing this means a UTI?  If so, does anyone have experience with this?  I've called the vet to ask for advice.  We prefer to treat naturally whenever possible, but I also know you don't mess around with UTI.


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## Roll farms (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm not saying this is the *right* thing....but having dealt w/ a couple of "just plain off" does in the past, I hit them w/ Nuflor for 5 days.

I have no idea what the real name is, or if there IS a name... but an old dairy goat herder buddy of mine calls it "Silent pneumonia"...

I'd also try a B vitamin shot and some Probiotics.

It wouldn't hurt to have a fecal ran, just to be on the safe side.

Good luck!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Thank you for posting about that, Rolls.  I did some googling and that is just scary stuff - silent pneumonia.

I am thinking this MIGHT be a UTI because of what I just saw.  I brought her into our basement garage to keep a closer eye on her vs her running the field.  She still won't eat anything but hay and water (very very odd for her).  However, she urinated and it was very dark and stinks horridly.  I am guessing this is a sign of a possible UTI?


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

While the Nuflor is a good idea...I'd treat for ketosis!  That dark urine worries me, and hypocalcaemia typically presents with does that refuse grain, but will still eat hay.  I'd get some CMPK in her as well...


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 2, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> While the Nuflor is a good idea...I'd treat for ketosis!  That dark urine worries me, and hypocalcaemia typically presents with does that refuse grain, but will still eat hay.  I'd get some CMPK in her as well...


x2!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 2, 2011)

Define "dark" -- brown, red, port-wine colored...what?  Also, what does it smell like?  Like very strong urine, 'iron-y' like blood, just *gross* like infection funk, or something different altogether?  

Have you given any kind of supplemental copper lately? Lots of SQ b-vitamins, perhaps? 

I'm also wondering, since this doe just freshened 1mo ago, if we're seeing some blood/yuck from the ladyparts mixed in the urine...or if potentially this isn't even pee, and maybe she's just having large volumes of uterine discharge and is contracting/squatting *as though* she's peeing..  I've seen female goats squat w/ watery diarrhea before, so I know it's not strictly the urge to pee that can make them squat..


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Please please know I am NOT trying to argue or debate anything here.  I want to throw out this info and hope it helps narrow down some possibilities.  My one fear is we go treating for one thing and it happens to be another and by the time we figure that out, it is too late or we've put her through "goat hell" unecessarily.

She has good quality hay.  Brome/Timothy.

She has a good all natural mineral that has copper, selenium, and all the other things we are so depleted of in this area's soil.  It is a loose mineral.

She gets 3lbs of grain a day (half at each milking).  She puts out 6 cups of milk per day (first freshening).  Is it possible we are feeding her too much?

She had a single (very large kid) during the middle of our blizzard.

We have not given her any type of supplements of any sort other than the BoSe a month before kidding.

Her urine is dark yellow with a tinge of brown to it.  It is usually clear.  The urine smells very strong like concentrated urine.  There is no sweet smell to the urine, at all, nor is there a sweet smell to her breath.  Her breath reminds me of someone with really bad breath or gingivitis, if that makes sense.

Vet is at a loss and says put her on Nuflor at 4cc (100 lb goat) every other day for 3 shots total because all she can figure is a UTI or bladder infection.  I'm just worried there is more to it than that.  

I have ketone strips here for humans.  Any chance they work for goats too?


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## ksalvagno (Mar 2, 2011)

Giving her the CMPK could not hurt and hopefully help her.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 2, 2011)

Sounds like concentrated urine which -- to me and Occam -- probably only indicates dehyradation.  I know you said she's drinking, but if she's off, she may not be drinking enough.  Pinch her upper eyelid between your thumb and index finger; if it stays tented a bit, she's likely dehydrated.

Did you deworm her right after she kidded?  If not, I'd suggest it, or at least running a fecal to see if she's undergone a "peri-parturient rise" in fecal egg counts.  She may be suffering the effect of a whole bunch of newly-awakened barberpole worms right now.

I'd probably go ahead and do antibiotics as well, just in case it is pneumonia, and I'd make *absolutely sure* she's drinking enough.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Giving her the CMPK could not hurt and hopefully help her.


I vote for ketosis/hypocalcemia as well.  And the extra CMPK wont hurt anything, could only help regardless of the problem.

I would pretty much throw the book at her.

An antibiotic, several treatments of calcium(CMPK), and a good worming or fecal test, and probiotics.

I lost a doe last year at 4 weeks into nursing, and I wish I had done the CMPK, we did everything else. I discussed it with my husband and he felt sure she was getting adequate feed so we didn't treat her for hypocalcemia, but I sure wish I had.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Okay, my vet has diagnosed me as being "nuts", but she is willing to go along with it if I can come up with a plan.  We don't have goat vets out here but our vets work with me if I can figure out what I think is going on if they don't know.

I pinched her upper eyelid and it does delay, so we've measured her water to know exactly how much she is actually drinking.  Any thoughts on how much is sufficient and how little is too little in what time span?  Thank you SOOO much for suggesting that as I should have thought to do that to begin with.

We wormed the goats a week ago, due to findings on the fecals.  We do not typically worm as we don't usually have an issue but we did this time so we treated the ones that came up with fecals indicating the need.  We used Cydectin oral drench.

Here is my plan of attack.  Please feel free to tell me what you think and if I'm possibly missing something.

CMPK @ 30cc orally, twice a day
Calcium Gluconate @ 50cc SQ, split into 5 doses of 10cc at each site, twice a day.
Making sure water is being drank plentifully.
Probios just in case.
Nuflor (in case of pneumonia or UTI) I hate hate hate to have to do this but I am not chancing it with silent pneumonia or a UTI.

Am I doing overkill?  Or should I be adding anything else?  You guys are a lifeline and I know my thanks isn't much but THANK YOU SO MUCH!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Odd thing she just started...

When she is standing up, she is leaning her hind end (hiney and back of legs) against things as though she is trying to brace herself on them like a seat.  She is not scratching; just leaning / bracing in that fashion.

I checked her for any soreness in the hindquarters or hooves.  Nothing that I can tell or see.

We have dosed her with the previous things mentioned.  I am headed for the city to pick up a few things for her but my family will be keeping an eye on the board for anything further in case I need to pick something else up.  It's an hour drive to the nearest small city so I'd hate to get all the way back home to find out there was something else I should have thought about.

Again, thank you guys.  I quit panicking somewhat when I start seeing replies from those of you who seem to know so much about goats.  I truly appreciate you and your time.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

I would redo the fecal test to make sure the dosage of cydectin you gave worked.  You said you gave her Cydectin Oral Drench, I have heard a couple people around here comment that it doesn't work as well as Cydectin cattle Pour-on.  

And what about some baking soda?  Couldn't hurt, simple to do and cheap.  

I know the key to dealing with any kind of ketosis is flushing out their system with lots of water, so when you are drenching her I would consider adding water to the drench, unless someone thinks you should do this seperate from the oral CMPK.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

This is from some of my saved notes on a weak doe that is either pregant or nursing. 

______________________

First and foremost, make very sure you have at least one bottle of calcium gluconate before kidding season starts. That way, if a pregnant doe can't rise tonight but was doing okay this morning, or is just becoming progressively weak and wobbly, you will be prepared. 
At the first sign of weakness and I don't mean the next day, I mean NOW, get a syringe with an 18-gauge needle, have someone hold her head or tie it to something substantial, and give her five shots of 10 cc's of calcium solution. This is how you do it: Tent a spot of her hide a few inches down from her topline. Gently slide the needle in sideways, horizontal to her body, so you can deposit the calcium under her hide, but not in the muscle. Choose another spot and repeat the procedure. Do this five times, so she will get 50 cc's. She's not going to like you very much, but it is not really very painful. Put alcohol on the bottle top between each extraction of solution. I use the same needle, but put it in alcohol between shots. 
If she had just begun to weaken, she will probably be strong and steady within an hour, but it doesn't matter; do it again. Give her another full 50 cc's in new spots, even if she is so strong that she tries to slap you silly, because she still needs more calcium, although her body will have absorbed the amount you put in her an hour ago. From here on it is straight uphill, and she will let you know that she doesn't like you or your treatments, but give her another one in a few hours, anyway. Then do it again the next day, about three times. 
If she has stabilized and is eating well, just watch her closely. Another treatment may be necessary, and it won't hurt her, but you have to watch her and use your own judgement. Watch her closely for several days, just in case. You know your own stock - be alert.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Thank you!  I've got those same notes so that is comforting.  

I'm off to the city.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 2, 2011)

I know people may think I'm crazy but I have dealt with meningeal worm and I don't want to have to deal with it again. For me it has been alpacas but if I see it in my goats, I will do the same. When I see an animal with a weak back end for no good reason, I treat for meningeal worm. I do 5 days of Safeguard dosed at 1cc per 7 lbs. I'm not sure if Cydectin is considered the same as Ivomec but I would also give a shot of Ivomec too. 

Only a spinal tap can verify meningeal worm so I just take a chance on it and figure if they don't have it, then I have wormed them really really good. The few times I have done this, I don't worry about resistance as it has been rare over the years that I have seen weak back ends. But when a  friend of mine lost a pregnant alpaca to meningeal worm because the vet didn't think about it and it could have been caught very early on, it just makes sense to me to go ahead and treat for it.

Now maybe someone else with more goat experience can say that it is ketosis or something, I don't know. But I thought I would throw meningeal worm out there.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I know people may think I'm crazy but I have dealt with meningeal worm and I don't want to have to deal with it again. For me it has been alpacas but if I see it in my goats, I will do the same. When I see an animal with a weak back end for no good reason, I treat for meningeal worm. I do 5 days of Safeguard dosed at 1cc per 7 lbs. I'm not sure if Cydectin is considered the same as Ivomec but I would also give a shot of Ivomec too.
> 
> Only a spinal tap can verify meningeal worm so I just take a chance on it and figure if they don't have it, then I have wormed them really really good. The few times I have done this, I don't worry about resistance as it has been rare over the years that I have seen weak back ends. But when a  friend of mine lost a pregnant alpaca to meningeal worm because the vet didn't think about it and it could have been caught very early on, it just makes sense to me to go ahead and treat for it.
> 
> Now maybe someone else with more goat experience can say that it is ketosis or something, I don't know. But I thought I would throw meningeal worm out there.


I would say if they don't see improvement in 12 t o24 hours from the calcium treatment to consider a heavy worm load a good possibility, and your recommendation of worming would be a good back up plan.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Not to negate Karen's advice, but I have seen goats lean like that when they aren't feeling well.  But meningeal worm is scary, so I'd probably be cautious about that myself.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Okay, we are seeing marked improvement already.  That is a lot sooner than I had anticipated.  She is up and moving around again.  She acts like we are trying to kill her no matter what we are giving her.  

I went to the city to try and find more CMPK because I thought this might be a long, drawn out thing.  No one has CMPK and our vet is on her last bottle with it on backorder.  Everyone around here is saying the same thing....that it is on backorder.  So I found some CMPK gel.  I've never used this gel before.  I've only used the liquid.  I'm being told to use the same dose - 30cc's.

I also found something called Calcium Drench by BOMAC Vets Plus, Inc.  It is specifically for goats.  Anyone ever use it?  I picked it up, just in case but no clue if I'll actually use it or not unless someone here thinks it is better for her somehow or another.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

I think the Calcium Gluconate will pretty much bring her around. We used a calcium/sucrose product recommended for IV, but also had the instructions on it for sub-Q for sheep. It worked just fine in less than 12 hours. We just kept using it until the entire bottle was gone. Our vet doesn't carry CMPK and we didn't have time to order it. 


With the antibiotics I would just keep up the probiotics, don't need another problem.  

I asked my husband about low calcium/milk fever and how likely it was to have a relapse and he said it was amazing how quickly the animal recovered from an IV treatment and they didn't have to go back and retreat. So I would just keep a close eye on her after you use up all the Calcium.  

So glad to hear she is doing better.


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## Roll farms (Mar 2, 2011)

I didn't see it mentioned but maybe a shot of B vitamin...?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

I think she just had a reaction of some sort.  She was down on her side, foaming at the mouth, and snorkling.  She did not get anything in her lungs from the drenching.  I was super careful of that and double checked but after she seized or did whatever it was, she seems like there is fluid in there now.

I'm a bit freaked out now.  I don't know what she reacted to as everything had been at least 2 hrs prior.


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## Roll farms (Mar 2, 2011)

That oral calcium drench gets reactions like that *every single time* I give it.  But not 2 hours later....


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

We gave the calcium drench at 5:45.  The reaction happened at 8:05.  

Her stomach is now bloated and hard.  She has froth and mucus mixed coming out of her nose and mouth.  She is breathing hard.

The vet is on her way out.  I'm a chicken and will do what I can on my own but I'm worried something more is amiss and I'm just not catching it.  I hate putting my babies through this kind of thing.  Hate, hate, hate it.  But until I find that magic wand, there's not much choice.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm so sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you are doing everything you can. Hopefully the vet can figure things out. Sometimes owning livestock sucks.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Thank you, Karen.

Rolls, thank you so much for letting me know that.  I am hoping this doesn't mean "the end" for her since others have had similar reactions, even if not so delayed.  The bloat has me very concerned right now, but I think we can address that relatively easily.  Vet is concerned it might be a blockage of some sort but I don't think so?

Has anyone else had the same type of problem with the calcium drench?  I won't be using it anymore.  Gimme my CMPK and Calcium Gluconate.


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## Roll farms (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm so sorry you're both going through this.  
Hoping for a good outcome.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 2, 2011)

I didn't notice in my reading through, but have you given her baking soda to eat?  or tried gently patting her left side to help her pass gas.  One of my girls doesn't know when to stop and will attempt to eat over the gas and needs assistance to.... let it out.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Sounds like bloat...you need to massage that rumen...get some baking soda in that rumen and neutralize it.  Im glad the vet is on her way...hope she dos'nt live to far.     It can be very serious if you dont get treatment in her right away.  They can go in hours if bloated like that.  If she wont get up...keep her sitting up...dont let her lay flat...! 

Going off feed and foaming at the mouth...extended and hard rumen...Bloat.  Try to stand her up...that gas in her belly needs to get out!

I hope the vet there soon to help you~


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 2, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Sounds like bloat...you need to massage that rumen...get some baking soda in that rumen and neutralize it.  Im glad the vet is on her way...hope she dos'nt live to far.     It can be very serious if you dont get treatment in her right away.  They can go in hours if bloated like that.  If she wont get up...keep her sitting up...dont let her lay flat...!
> 
> Going off feed and foaming at the mouth...extended and hard rumen...Bloat.  Try to stand her up...that gas in her belly needs to get out!
> 
> I hope the vet there soon to help you~


 Exactly my thoughts!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

But Frothy Bloat needs something to break up the froth....the vet may have a medication.  I know there is a remedy for it...but I cant think of it...Im sorry... 

I hope the vet gets there soon for you guys...


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Milk of Magnesia will help break up the froth in the rumen...but I know the vets have medicine that will break up that froth.


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

Calcium drench is NASTY!  It burns them going down, and gosh if they aspirate it, who KNOWS what could happen.

Also, I just use vegetable oil to break up frothy bloat.  Luckily to date I've only dealt with one frothy buck, but the oil worked right away.

Keep us posted.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Vet came and went and we're none the wiser.  She is a wonderful person but is not a goat vet nor does she claim to be one but she is one of the few near us (an hour and 15 mins away) that will work with us to figure things out.

She said the doe has a lot of liquid in the lungs now.  She was absolutely clear before the reaction.  She thinks she got it down in her lungs during the reaction.  She gave her a steroid and some banemine.  She didn't feel the bloat was bad enough yet to address despite my thoughts on the matter.

She said she was not breathing well enough to get enough oxygen and needed to be left alone and not stressed any further.

Oh, and if that wasn't all bad enough, in the past 2 hours, her temp has dropped to 99.7.  It had been just fine (102 something) all day.

For those who know how to treat bloat, I could use some really specific instruction, please?  I'm angry we got so little help and will no doubt have a bill over 200 for this, but even more so that it is looking like a death sentence.  I'm not trying to be melodramatic.  I'm angry and scared for her so I'm a bit emotional.  Sorry.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Helmstead, how much veggie oil and how often?  

This is going to be one long night.

My vet's advice?  "Go to bed and leave her be.  I don't think she's going to make it."


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

Start her on antibiotics ASAP to avoid aspiration pneumonia.  I give wee babies 3 cc of oil, so an adult goat I would do probably 15 ccs or so.  Baking soda for acidosis, and C&D antitoxin for entero.  You can do the oil and baking soda often...the oil acts as a surfactant.

Pound on her ribs to help her expel/cough up the drench she aspirated.  If you can keep her up and walking, much like a colicy horse.

I'm so sorry!  I hope she pulls through.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Do you have milk of magnesia by chance?????  Also Tide (powered) laundry detergent 3cc powder to 30cc water mix well.  

Vegetable oil (6-8 oz for an adult)  or, mix baking soda with water and use as a drench. 

I would try vegtable oil / milk of mag 1st...but you dont wanna just layer..more stuff on the foam...you want something thats gonna dispers it.  

Im sorry your having a hard time with her.    I was hoping the vet would have a clue???


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm so sorry to keep pestering but truly appreciate the help!

She was given Nuflor this morning so that is in her system already.

I gave her the C&D a while ago when we first saw the bloated look creeping in, despite the fact that vet felt it wasn't going to help.  She didn't think it could hurt so I did it anyway.

Can I just mix the veggie oil and baking soda or should there be some water in there too?

She's had free choice baking soda all day but has not touched it.

This is not a people goat.  We just got her a few months ago and she is not people friendly.  She is very stressed and the vet thought leaving her be would help her breathe better as her lungs are really full right now.  Do you think keeping her up and going so she can cough the stuff up would outweigh her panic/stress?  She's worn out acting and blank in the eyes.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

which is better?  The Milk of Mag or the veggie oil and baking soda?

Hubby is ready to go get M. of M. if needed.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> My vet's advice?  "Go to bed and leave her be.  I don't think she's going to make it."


  Thats terrible!!!      Im sorry she was no help.

I really hope she pulls thru for you!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Start to treat now...give her 6-8 oz of vegtable oil ..then baking soda and water.

While he's going to the store.  I would start with veg and then baking soda and water.  And if shes not belching or nothing seems to be moving give her M of Mag.


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## babsbag (Mar 2, 2011)

Do you still think she has the low calcium levels in addition to the bloat? I had one with hypocalcemia last year and the low temp, blank look, and wobbly/weak legs fit her symptoms to a "T". She eventual went down completely.  Luckily I do have an awesome goat vet and she started her on a calcium I.V. and shortly turned her around.

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Sometimes these animals scare me to death. I have only had to deal with bloat once, a long long time ago, and the vet said cooking oil. It worked. I do remember walking her, for a very long time. He said to keep her up and moving as much as possible. 

Just remember you are giving her the best care that she can get. I hope she turns around for you.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

I would try to get her up and walking...if she cant not make sure she dos'nt lie flat..and massage that rumen...its important..you wanna mix that oil and baking soda around the liquid in the rumen.  And help her to start belching that gas out...


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Do you think she aspirated the calcium by chance????  If so...that may be a totally differant ball of wax.  Where the only thing I would know to do is as Kate said...Antibiotics and trying to get her to cough whats filling in her lungs.  I have no idea what the calcium would do to her lungs.  Im sorry.   

 But with what your describing...sounds like a bad case of frothy bloat.  

But most times when they bloat...they know and will go off feed.   Now if she starts feeling better...Dont give her any food for 10-12 hours..let her get that rumen balanced.  And leave the baking soda out for her..if she feels she needs it.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 2, 2011)

Thank you so much for the dosing info.  We also got her up and walking and gently but firmly thumping her left side and ribs with our hands.  She didn't seem to pass much gas but her sides are quite a bit less bloated now.  She seems to like the thumping which is odd.

I am fairly sure she coughed up the calcium drench and that is what is in her lungs.  

Emmetts and Helms, if I could hug you both right now, I would.  I still think it's a long shot but her tummy going down makes me feel a lot better about some possibility here.

We're setting alarms and going to walk her and check on her every half hour.  By taking turns, it means only every hour each.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Great news shes up!!!  When you massage that rumen..kinda push in and let off...Kinda like you kneading dough...make sure theres movement and put your ear right on the left side and listen for rumen sounds!  Important.  The more you walk her..and the more you massage her..the faster she will get better.   I would also give her a blanket for her temp..keep her warm tonight.  I dont know how cold it is...but if her temp is still low..you gotta warm her.

Important remove all water and feed from her right now and let that rumen settle...Give her some more treatments of baking soda and water...but dont let her eat till morning!!  And she will need probotics / vitamin b and probiotics to get her regular in the morning.  I would say give her more veg..but she probally will get the runs.  If she starts foaming again the veg oil..but if shes doing okay...then I would hold off.  But its your call.

Good luck with her...I hope she gets thru this okay!!!  

I gotta go to bed myself...Best of luck!!


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## New Goat Momma (Mar 3, 2011)

Her temp is climbing!  It had dropped to 99.7.  We are now at 101.  

I've never been so excited to hear a goat belch and pass gas.  

Her tummy is just about back to normal.  Not quite but almost. 

We're continuing the subQ shots of Calcium Gluconate but no more Calcium Drench.

She seems to be getting some spunk back.  It's a bit quicker than I would have expected but I'm not complaining.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 3, 2011)

So glad to hear she's turning around!


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 3, 2011)

New Goat Momma said:
			
		

> Her temp is climbing!  It had dropped to 99.7.  We are now at 101.
> 
> I've never been so excited to hear a goat belch and pass gas.
> 
> ...


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## helmstead (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm sure you're tired, but I'm hoping for a good morning update...


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

This is the first thing I looked at when I opened my laptop this morning!! So happy to hear her temp is up!!!

I am anixously awaiting an update as well this morning!!!  Im so happy to hear she was bouncing back!!! Good job!!! 

Im sure you are beat from a long night!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

New Goat Momma said:
			
		

> Her temp is climbing!  It had dropped to 99.7.  We are now at 101.
> 
> I've never been so excited to hear a goat belch and pass gas.
> 
> ...


Do you have two accounts?? Or did someone post this for you???  I just noticed the name???


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## Roll farms (Mar 3, 2011)

I believe it's her daughter....

Glad to hear she is on the mend...hoping the trend continues.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

I just experienced bloat for the first time a couple days ago and wanted to add, a gentle pat is probably not going to do it.  Even with Bloat Release and walking laps I had to massage the rumen VIGOROUSLY to get the gas to start expelling.  I really hope your girl is doing better this morning.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 3, 2011)

Sounds like things are looking up!  I hope she's ok this morning.  

It's late, but one thing I wanted to add is dish soap also helps with frothy bloat.  Also, you can put something in their mouth to act like a bit in a horse's mouth (like a thick dowel rod or something similar).  Tie it in there so the goat has to work on it (bite on it, chew it, move it, try to get it out) which causes them to salivate more, which helps buffer the rumen.  It also helps them belch more. I got that tip from an old vet.  

Hope she's ok!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 3, 2011)

Good Morning!

Temp is at 103.2.

Her stomach is back to normal size.  No bloat that I can tell.

She's acting relatively normal for an ornery goat.

I have not given her back her food yet.  I'm half scared to let her eat again!  I think we may try and see if she's hungry, here in a little while.

We walked her every hour last night and patted her every hour, but this meant we were bothering her every half hour.  She's a tired goat today.  We're tired humans today!

We gave her the SubQ shots of Calcium Gluconate every 4 hours.

Thank you to everyone for your help.  We could not have gotten this far without you.  In fact, I think she would be dead without you, to be real blunt.

And yes, my apologies.  NewGoatMomma is my daughter.  She was here helping last night so we could trade off and I posted using her laptop as it was down in the basement with us.  I should have realized it would have me down under her name and said something.  My bad.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

YIPPIE!!!!    Im so glad she made it thru the night and her temp is up!!!  Great News!!!!

I would start to feed her now with hay this morning and give her water..But make sure you get a probiotic in her soon...cuz you need that flora to begin to build again in the rumen.  And the antibiotic will also kill the flora in the rumen so probiotics and hay and water!!!  I would also give her a vitamin B shot this morning!!

Im soooo happy for you!!! Great JOB!!! Good work!! Exhausting but you saved her.  If you would of taken that vets advice..you'd probally be crying you eyes out telling us a totally differant senario!!! You went with your gut and saved her life!!!!!!

Im happy happy happy for you guys!!!


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 3, 2011)

I am glad it is going better. I also found the thread very educational, since I have never used the oral calcium and unless it is the only thing available in a couple hundred milkes I am not planning on trying to use it after your experience with it.  We had been very happy with the sub-Q calcium.  

I would give her some more baking soda  after you try to feed her.  And keep up the probiotics.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2011)

So, pretty much, she wasn't feeling good on account -- most likely, based on treatment/result -- of hypocalcemia, and since she wasn't feeling good she wasn't wanting to eat or drink, and got dehydrated...then weak...then better with calcium, but aspirated some calcium drench, and then bloated, and couldn't breathe well because of the aspiration _and_ bloat, and then her temp dropped below that magic 100* danger line........and now she's back up and being a goat!?

Wow...what a story!  Do you even realize how many often-fatal things she just endured?

Milk fever - often deadly.
Dehydration - often deadly.
Aspiration - often deadly.
Bloat - often deadly.
Subnormal temperature - often deadly.

You did really, really well bringing her through all that.  And *she* did really well, too!

What I'd suggest is to keep her on antibiotics for those lungs for the next several days, and possibly a shot of banamine here and there..  Reason being, if she aspirated the calcium drench, it *will* irritate her lungs, which causes inflammation, which will cause her to cough and irritate things further, and with all that going on she's liable to pop up with pneumonia..  Would seem to me to be kind of an opportunistic threat right now, so -- if I were you -- I'd want to take precautionary measures against it..

But again, I just have to say...OUTSTANDING JOB so far!


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 3, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> Has anyone else had the same type of problem with the calcium drench?  I won't be using it anymore.  Gimme my CMPK and Calcium Gluconate.


I'm thinking the bloat was caused more by the hypocalcemia than the drench.  Hypocalcemia affects muscle function, so it's pretty common for the rumen activity to be altered.

ETA:  Preg. toxemia can also affect rumen activity, so not sure if it was that or milk fever ( I skimmed over the thread, sorry).


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

Personally..Im not a fan of oral drench.  If I can inject it and get the same result...its the way I go.!!  And its aspiration that I always worry about.

Its always quicker and easier on the goat in my expirence to inject it.  A quick shot rather than trying to shove something down the goat throat!!

@ Cm  I agree 100%...she did a fabulous job!!!  And saved her girls life!!
She should be very proud of that.  Cuz just one of the situations could of killed her!!!!   

Awesome job!!!  

*Welcome to the wonderful world of goats!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 3, 2011)

The reaction occurred a little over 2 hours after the calcium drench and was the only thing she had not had previously so we are assuming the reaction was due to the calcium drench.  We believe during the reaction she got the drench in her lungs.  

The irritating part is that the bottle of the drench boldly warns against getting it in the lungs, stating it can cause pneumonia and be deadly.  Well, we didn't get it in there until the reaction!  I have called in my thoughts on the subject to the company but I didn't get the impression that the gal on the phone much cared one way or the other.  

Thank you for the banamine suggestion, Mr. GPS.  I wouldn't have thought of that till it was an issue.

She's on Nuflor so I'm hoping that keeps the pneumonia at bay but the anti-inflamatory is key too so thank you for that!

We used a heat lamp to help us get her body temp back up and now she's hollering because we took it away.  At least she's hollering again, but she's in the part of the basement that is right under my bedroom!  

Her temp is at 103.3 and she's drinking like a camel.  She still has no interest in her grain but water and hay are her friends right now so that is good.

I'm off to get a nap.  One of my daughters has a huge dog agility competition all weekend and I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to stay awake to drive 4 hrs there and watch it!  Gotta love goats!

Thanks again everyone!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 3, 2011)

Dosing thoughts on the Banamine?  How much?  How often?  I want something to compare to what my vet says, just in case.

I have a confession to make.  I got the calcium drench because I was hoping to let my husband and son cheat and use it and not have to give SubQ shots of the calcium gluconate while we were away at my daughter's competition.  I know better than to try to take a short cut but I did it anyhow and now my goat is paying the price for it. 

I realized we beat the odds thus far, but did not realize just how much so until I read Mr. GPS' post.  Thank you for that.  She's a good girl and healthy or I don't think she could have made it to begin with.

Nap...nap...


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2011)

Banamine is 1ml/100lbs, 1x/day for no more than 3 days.  I usually give it IM because it stings pretty good...I know first hand, because I once took a small dose of it IE.

That's "In Eyeball"...  

Don't go more than 3 days in a row with it, because it's prone to give them ulcers and other GI trouble....rough on innards, basically.  Actually, if you can get your vet to part with a couplethree pre-dosed syringes of a drug called Ketofen, you might go that route..  It's more expensive than banamine, but it does the same thing without so much risk of GI issues..

I ran so much Ketofen through a UC buck once that I started to worry about his liver/kidneys holding up, and he never showed the first sign of GI trouble..

I can't remember if she's had banamine already, but in any case, I'd do *no more* than 3 doses on three consecutive days..

Another option might be dexamethasone..  It's a powerful anti-inflammatory, but it also weakens the immune system..  If what you're worried about is pneumonia, it might be counter-productive..  Or not, since she's on antibiotics anyway..

Probably a good question for the vet.


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## babsbag (Mar 3, 2011)

I am so glad that she is doing well. You are an inspiration. Your dedication and support of that gal is awesome. She may hate you right now, but she is one lucky goat to be living with you. GOOD JOB.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

GREAT job!  You really did save her life.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Probably a good question for the vet.


Her vet does not know much about goats. She told her last night after giving her a shot of steroids and antibiotic..to let her alone for the night and see what happens.  

Her vet did not even recognise the bloat???  Hello!! She should of in the least caught the bloat and treated.

But she stayed presistant and new in her gut the goat was not right..and continued to treat ignoring the vets advice.  THANKFULLY!!! 

So naaahhhh I probally would'nt ask her vet!!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 3, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Her vet sounds like vets up here...  where have the good knowledgeable vets gone?


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## poorboys (Mar 3, 2011)

I MISSED THIS WHOLE THING UNTILL TODAY, YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AND HELP AND HANGING IN THEIR WITH HER. SO GLAD TO HEAR SHE'S UP AND DOING GOOD. ALL THIS INFO IS SO HELPFULL TO ALL OF US ON THIS FORUM. GREAT LEARNER MATERIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THANKS TO ALL OF YOU


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 3, 2011)

poorboys said:
			
		

> YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AND HELP AND HANGING IN THEIR WITH HER. SO GLAD TO HEAR SHE'S UP AND DOING GOOD. ALL THIS INFO IS SO HELPFULL TO ALL OF US ON THIS FORUM. GREAT LEARNER MATERIAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THANKS TO ALL OF YOU


X2!!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

In her vet's defense, she is not a "goat vet."  I WORK for a vet (small animal practice/a few horses) and I still use a specialist for my goats.  It's not that the vet I work for isn't knowledgeable- he is.  But knowledgeable about cats, dogs, horses, etc. is not the same thing as knowledgeable about ruminants.  The fact that her vet is willing to work with her on treatment options the owner is bringing to the table counts for quite a bit in my book.  Is it as good as having a vet who's knowledgeable about goats in particular?  No, but it means that if BlackSheep has access to information she can access Rx meds.  That can mean the difference between saving a life or not- especially when your average small animal vet's response is, "bring me the goat and I'll charge out the you-know-what for an exam fee and diagnostic testing, reference a textbook really quick that you could just read yourself, tell you a couple things you already know, then take a shot in the dark about treatment."


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> In her vet's defense, she is not a "goat vet."  I WORK for a vet (small animal practice/a few horses) and I still use a specialist for my goats.  It's not that the vet I work for isn't knowledgeable- he is.  But knowledgeable about cats, dogs, horses, etc. is not the same thing as knowledgeable about ruminants.  The fact that her vet is willing to work with her on treatment options the owner is bringing to the table counts for quite a bit in my book.  Is it as good as having a vet who's knowledgeable about goats in particular?  No, but it means that if BlackSheep has access to information she can access Rx meds.  That can mean the difference between saving a life or not- especially when your average small animal vet's response is, "bring me the goat and I'll charge out the you-know-what for an exam fee and diagnostic testing, reference a textbook really quick that you could just read yourself, tell you a couple things you already know, then take a shot in the dark about treatment."


Thats a good point..I was being a little harsh..sorry


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I understand where it's coming from- finding a good goat vet is HARD.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

Thankfully I have 3 large animals vets in my region of NH so I have choices.  And I use all three so It makes it nice for me.   But I do understand that sometimes there are no choices..and you have to make the best of what you have to work with.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 3, 2011)

Well, we got a nap and Dafne (goat) got a nap.  We're all tuckered out!  Her temp is hanging in the 103 range and she's eating on hay, mineral, and molasses water.  She still has very little interest in grain which is not good since she is the type of goat that will do most ANYTHING for grain.

Thank you for the thoughts on my vet.  I admit I'm not pleased with the "she's going to die...nothing much you can do" type attitude last night but when she doesn't know, she doesn't know.  It's not like they gave her a magic wand when she graduated vet school.  She works with us as best she can, truly.  She's always willing to give us Rx for whatever we ask, within reason.

I'm nervous as I have to leave here in a bit to take my daughter to an all weekend dog agility competition.  My son and hubby are going to be taking care of Dafne.  They are NOT goat guys.  My son understands that if he doesn't see her through this, I am going to see to it that he is married to a big burly bertha who cracks a whip and snarls in her sleep.  He's 17 and more responsible than most adults I know (he runs the farm for his father) so I am hoping he will be fine.

I do have a question though.  Banamine and Ketofen were not options.  Ketofen because they did not have it and Banamine because she was not comfortable with more than 1 more dose being given which meant the goat pellets could hit the fan while I was gone this weekend and they would not be able to give Banamine to Dafne.  So we settled on dexamethasone.  Problem is the vet was not there so I have no clue on dosing!  I am googling my little heart out on it but if anyone knows, I could use the advice.  I am not sure how much to give her or how often or where to inject.  I believe it is IM injection though.

I'm just so tickled she is up and going again!

Thanks bunches everyone!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 3, 2011)

This link may help.  Its a steriod used for anti inflamatory.  I would try to call the vet before you leave and see what her intention in using this is.  Cuz steriods break down the immune as well.  And they should'nt be on this too long. ????  So I dont know the answer to that???   But the dosing info is 1-2 mg per 100 pounds.

Ive included this link for informational purposes.  It good to hang onto for reference.

Good luck...Im so glad shes improving!  


http://www.barnonemeatgoats.com/drugs.html


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 3, 2011)

Thank you for the link.  I had googled and found that it said one cc per 20 lbs but that seems like an awful lot.  I like your #s better.

The purpose behind the anti-inflamatory drug is to keep her out of pain from the burn in her lungs so she wouldn't go off water and hay again.  However, it has been over 24 hrs and she seems to be doing well so we're going to play it by ear and see.  I just don't want to "down" her immune system anymore than we have to.  Sadly, we won't be able to claim her as an organic goat anymore for milk's sake.  However, she's alive and well and that beats a dead organic goat anyday!

I got a call from my son while we were traveling.  He was freaked out because the goat can't seem to quit "farting" and belching" as he put it.  Poor girl!  At least she's not bloated and he can just deal with the "fumes".


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 4, 2011)

Why cant you claim her as an organic goat anymore.  You cant really drink or sell her milk right now because of all the meds.  But once her withdrawal time is done...she will be free of chemicals again???  I dont know the standards of organic milk sales...but you had to give take life saving measaures???  

I would just consider her off the milking line for now..but she will not be a medicines for a long time.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 4, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> Thank you for the link.  I had googled and found that it said one cc per 20 lbs but that seems like an awful lot.  I like your #s better.


It actually is 1ml/20lbs.. 



> The purpose behind the anti-inflamatory drug is to keep her out of pain from the burn in her lungs so she wouldn't go off water and hay again.


Sort of...more like, to keep her from becoming too inflammed and irritated, because inflammation and irritation of the lungs can lead to URIs and pneumonia.

Kinda like how I got really awful bronchitis after spending an entire weekend in a trench picking rocks out of clay to run water to my barn..  Clay dust = inflammation = bacterial bronchitis.

HOWEVER...



> ...it has been over 24 hrs and she seems to be doing well so we're going to play it by ear and see.  I just don't want to "down" her immune system anymore than we have to.


I think that's probably a good call.  She may not have any inflammation...she may be over it and well on her way to recovery.  A shot of banamine is one thing, but a round of steriods is much more....involved?  

I'd probably hold off, too, if she's doing really well and isn't coughing and hacking nonstop.



> Sadly, we won't be able to claim her as an organic goat anymore for milk's sake.  However, she's alive and well and that beats a dead organic goat anyday!






> I got a call from my son while we were traveling.  He was freaked out because the goat can't seem to quit "farting" and belching" as he put it.  Poor girl!  At least she's not bloated and he can just deal with the "fumes".


Pretty normal for a goat.


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## jodief100 (Mar 4, 2011)

Glad to hear everything is getting better!   You did wonderful.

I agree with holding off on the steriods unless it becomes necessary.

And 1 ml = 1 cc    Metrics was defined to make it easy.  

So 1 cc per 20 lbs or 1 ml per 20 lbs.   Same thing.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 4, 2011)

1cc and 1ml are the same.  

On the website link I left it said 1-2mg per 100 lbs. They obviously converted it differantly depending on the product labeling etc.  Ones a  volume measurement and ones a wieght measurement.  Any how.  ????  

I would look at your syringe and if its in cc or ml, which most are, I would go with 1 cc or 1ml per 20lbs.  Its obviously in liquid form so that would be fine.

I hate pharmacutical conversions!!!   

And all of this is now moot becuase your backing off the steriods!!! Sorry!! LOL!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

I have children who have to inject daily to stay alive so I knew the cc and ml thingy.  I was being a nitwit and misread the mg as ml.  Sorry about that!  :/

She is not coughing or anything so I think her lungs may be okay...at least for now.

She's nibbling on hay and water but still has absolutely no interest in the grain.  She's not eating a huge amount of hay or water but she is eating them.  

My son just finished up giving her the last round of a 500ml bottle of Calcium Gluconate.  She's up and about and much more lively now, but the not wanting grain has me really worried.

She's putting out 1 cup of milk per milking now.  This is down from 3 cups per milking.  

Her temp was normal when he checked it this afternoon and her rumen seems to be working.  She's not bloated at all.  She is hydrated (the eyelid is not tenting when pinched up and her urine is light colored and not dark at all) but I am worried that is because we've been putting 50cc's of Calcium Gluconate in her by SQ injections, every 2 hrs.

Is there anything else we should be looking for that would explain her total disinterest in grain still?  Any thoughts on what might be causing her disinterest?  From those of you who have dealt with the milk fever before, is this normal?  If it is normal, when should we expect her to show interest in eating again?


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 4, 2011)

Did you redo the fecal test yet?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

Yes, we did.  It was negative.  Her coloring is good so I feel comfortable marking parasites off the list.

We do our own fecal floats but this time I had the vet do it just in case I was not catching something.

I feel like a daytime goat drama here each time my son calls.  Apparently her temp is 103.6.  I'm not worried yet but it has held at right about 103.3 for the last day or two so it is just slightly elevated.  I may have to rethink the dexamethasone.  She's still on Nuflor so that should keep anything too serious at bay.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

Have you tried adding a little calf manna to her grain ration?  it has anise in it, which make it more palletable for them... just a thought.
Someone more knowledgeable, please, if this might make things worse, please correct me.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

Livinwright, we have not tried that.  I'll wait to see if anyone warns against it as well as do some googling to check for any warnings out there.

Thanks so much for the suggestion!  At this point, most anything is worth a try.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

Update:  Temp is now 104.7

She's on Nuflor.  What in blue blazes??


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

Antibiotics are no guarantee that an infection won't set in, especially with aspiration.  I would give some Banamine or others here have suggested children's advil (right?) to bring her temp down.

As long as she's eating hay...be happy with that.  I would try to get some CMPK instead of the gluconate and get that in her...along with lots of B Complex (you can't overdose that!) to stimulate her appetite.  Make sure the hay she is eating has all the nutrition it possibly could (ie...alfalfa hay) and give her time to come back to the grain.  You might loose this freshening as far as milking goes, but if you save the doe, that's the best possible outcome.  Also give her Probios to help repopulate that rumen...daily since she's on antibiotics.

(sorry I didn't read back, so if you already are, my apologies)


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

Thank you Helmstead!  How much vitamin B Complex would you suggest?  I gave her some the first 2 days at 5cc's, 12 hrs apart.  Do you think that is adequate?  Also, ours is the Fortified Vitamin B Complex so it has both B1 and B12 in it.

I just told him to go traumatize her with more CMPK and Vitamin B shots along with some baby aspirin.

He said he's going to start calling her "Ms Pinprick" for obvious reasons.


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

Golly when I have a sick goater, I do 3 ccs of B complex every 4 hours.  Again, you cannot overdose it, they just pee the extra out.  Now, that 3 cc is for the average Nigerian, I'd double it for a standard.  So...maybe try 3 times a day and see how that helps.

*of course it turns the urine dark and smelly, so don't let that throw you*


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Antibiotics are no guarantee that an infection won't set in, especially with aspiration.  I would give some Banamine or others here have suggested children's advil (right?) to bring her temp down.
> 
> As long as she's eating hay...be happy with that.  I would try to get some CMPK instead of the gluconate and get that in her...along with lots of B Complex (you can't overdose that!) to stimulate her appetite.  Make sure the hay she is eating has all the nutrition it possibly could (ie...*alfalfa hay*) and give her time to come back to the grain.  You might loose this freshening as far as milking goes, but if you save the doe, that's the best possible outcome.  Also give her *Probios* to help repopulate that rumen...daily since she's on antibiotics.
> 
> (sorry I didn't read back, so if you already are, my apologies)


Agreed! 
I will specify GOAT Probios. TSC carries both probios and GOAT probios.

Poor little miss pincushion... :/


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

This is what I have at home and have been having my son give her.  Can you tell me if it is what you mean when you say "goat probios"?  It does say ruminant animals and lists goats as being one of them, but the tube says "bovine" as well.  If it will not work, I'll see if my hubby can find some that is specific to goats and pick them up.

http://www.valleyvet.com/swatches/16714_L_vvs_000.jpg 

Again, thank yall for everything.  You've been completely supportive and absolutely wonderful and informative.  I truly appreciate all the help and know it is probably getting pert near tedious by now.  So thanks bunches!


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

You're fine using that...a ruminant is a ruminant.  I even use the equine version when that's all I can find.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

I mistyped before. It is a probiotic powder. Much like the Probios powder, only specifically formulated for goats.



Guaranteed Analysis per lb(minimum unless otherwise stated):
Vitamin A-           2,800,000 IU
Vitamin D3-         1,200,000 IU
Vitamin E-                  1,000 IU
Vitamin B12-              5,000 mcg
Vitamin B6-                   250 mg
Vitamin C -                 1,000 mg
Niacin-                        6,000 mg
Choline-                     5,000 mg
d-Pantothenic Acid-    2,000 mg
Riboflavin-                     500 mg
Folic Acid-                      150 mg
Lactic Acid Bacteria-     60 billion CFU_ (colony forming units) _


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 5, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Agreed!
> I will specify GOAT Probios. TSC carries both probios and GOAT probios.
> 
> Poor little miss pincushion... :/


Is there a difference?  All the Probios I've ever seen is listed for several different critters.  But it does have a specific goat dose.  I haven't actually seen actual goat "Probios". (By that I mean the Probios brand).  I have both the paste and the powder, and I've used them, is that not OK?  Is there something more specific I should be using?



Edited to add:  Never mind, I read the next post and I get it now.  So the regular Probios should be fine.  I'm a bit slow sometimes.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can still use regular old probios... but TSC now carries a goat specific probiotic powder. _see the post directly above your's for picture w/ product analysis._


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 5, 2011)

I think I've seen that one before at my local Big R.  I haven't tried it - bought several Probios tubs on sale, so I'm pretty well stocked for a while.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

we decided to get it over the Probios just for the fact that it has SO much MORE of the Lactic Acid Bacteria.
Given that goat are living septic systems with benefits... I want my little septic systems running smoothly!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 5, 2011)

That brand - Goats Prefer, is the brand that makes that calcium drench that my goat reacted to so badly.  I am not saying that brand is bad in everything but I personally will be cautious of using them after seeing how she reacted to that drench.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

I understand your hesitation and caution... and I will keep a close eye on my girls after feeding it to them. 
I have gone over the ingredients(and their order) and have found nothing in it that could harm them. I have also inspected the container(as I always do for anything) for any puncture spots or other signs of tampering.

All goats are different, and potentially your doe is mild to moderately allergic to something in that particular drench. I am not ruling out that something could have been wrong with that batch or even from the company itself. I have been searching the web to see if I see any warnings or cautions on the company or the product itself, and am not finding anything.

PS: I REALLY hope your doe is feeling her normal self SOON.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 5, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> That brand - Goats Prefer, is the brand that makes that calcium drench that my goat reacted to so badly.  I am not saying that brand is bad in everything but I personally will be cautious of using them after seeing how she reacted to that drench.


Eeek!  That's the same calcium drench I bought to keep on hand in case my does show signs of milk fever.  So a calcium injection would be better?  Is it subQ?  Is CMPK even better yet for this?  I couldn't get an Rx for CMPK but I do have the CMPK gel (or paste, don't remember).  Don't have a clue how I'll give it though -  when I ordered it I didn't realize you need a gun to administer it.  It's HUGE and it needs a particular gun tool to squeeze the contents out.  My hubby's caulking gun is too big for it.   I figure if I need it I can stab into it to access the contents.  I should probably figure out what the dose should be in case it's ever needed.

Do goat people EVER relax?  I thinkin I'm a walking anxiety attack since I found this board and started learning more about goats!


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## Roll farms (Mar 5, 2011)

I've used the oral "Goats Prefer Calcium Drench" for years w/ no problems.

They don't LIKE it...but they make icky faces over half the stuff I drench them with.  

I truly believe they kid easier / pass the placenta faster when I give it to them...now, I'm not saying they really do...just that *I* feel they do.

I use a drenching gun to make sure it hits the back of their tongue so they can't spit it back out.  I've found mixing it w/ a Tbs of molasses makes it much easier to give.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

I was wondering how her fever was this morning?  

And as for probiotics you can use bovine.  There is really not a goat specific probiotic with exception of added nutrients for goats.   You can also use plain yougurt if she likes it.  And I know a few farmers who would grab some cud from another goat and give it to the one that needs it.?? Make sense to me..thats what the old timers do.  

As for not eating the grain...you can top dress it with molasses or something??  She may need a bit of time to get back to normal. Poor girl went through alot.  If her fevers rising too shes off and not feeling well still.  Keep up with the Vitamin B, give her some fever reducer.  Sorry to hear her temp is up.

Hope shes hanging in there for you!!


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## helmstead (Mar 5, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> As for not eating the grain...you can top dress it with molasses or something??


I wouldn't go through any big to-do's over getting her to eat grain - her body, for one reason or another, doesn't want it.  As long as she's eating hay, I'd let the grain go for now...offer it as you always have, and one day she'll take a nibble.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
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I agree...I was not overly concerned about the grain either.  Just a suggestion. 

I totally agree if shes eating hay and drinking water...shes okay for now.  
She went thru alot and her temp is up.  So it dos'nt suprise me at all she dos'nt want grain.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I wouldn't go through any big to-do's over getting her to eat grain - her body, for one reason or another, doesn't want it.  As long as she's eating hay, I'd let the grain go for now...offer it as you always have, and one day she'll take a nibble.


I agree.  The long stemmed roughage is probably what's best for her rumen while it recovers anyway.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 5, 2011)

Her temp is currently at 103.5 and she's had no aspirin in over 8 hrs so it is only slightly higher than her typical which tends to be 103.2-103.3.

She's drinking molasses water, not eating on her hay much anymore, but seems to be more alert and active now.  

We now call her our pincushion princess.  

We put molasses on her grain to no avail.  My son is getting her to take a couple of gulps of water every hour.  Poor guy has been such a trooper to call me every few hrs with a report on how she's doing and he's doing all the shots, SQ injections, etc.  He's even checking on her every 2 hrs at night.  Tis the price he must pay for having the house to himself and rid of women all weekend!

I guess we'll be patient a bit longer and wait for the interest in grain to return.

Thanks everyone!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 6, 2011)

Some of you are probably tired of my postings on this one goat.  I do apologize but just don't know what else to do in order to get help with her.  Vet is stumped.  Univ vet hospital is stumped when our vet called them.  I'm ready to pull my hair out.

My son called earlier today while I was still out of town to say my doe's milk had a green tint to it when he milked her this morning.  She only gave out about 1/3 cup, but it definitely has a green tint to it.

I got home to find that my that my doe had lost a good deal of weight.  She is peeing pretty regularly due to fluids being put in her by SQ injections.  I have now tube fed her electrolytes.  I don't think she was eating as much hay as he thinks she was.  She is now refusing hay, water, etc.  

Now, this may sound odd, but I soaked some hay in molasses water and when I put that in her mouth she will chew on it and swallow it.  Same with the grain.  I think she has quit eating due to her throat being swollen?  Her swallowing sounds more like gulping now.

When I got home she could barely lift her neck and had it layed in an S on the ground (if that makes sense).  She was very wobbly if you stood her up and she couldn't hardly get up on her own and had to have help.  She went downhill pretty fast (in 4 hrs she went from doing good to this).  After the electrolytes, she is holding up her head more now, but it still isn't good.

I am pretty sure she has fluid in her lungs from the sound of her breathing.  This was before tubing her just to clarify.

She had her 5th Nuflor shot today so that should be the end of those but I'm worried and wondering if we should switch antibiotics?  I am not real familiar with antibiotics as we try not to use them except when we absolutely need to.  She has been one of those "need to" cases.

Her entire throat is swollen inside.  I had a VERY difficult time tube feeding her as I could not really feel if the tube was going down her throat or not, when I was inserting it.  She is having a hard time swallowing.  Could this be from the calcium drench that she had such a reaction to?  I have no idea if her throat has been this way for several days or not as my son did not take note of it and we just got back home (been gone since Thurs evening).

I THOUGHT her rumen was still going because it gurgles and moves, but we are having to massage it to get her to belch.  However, her temp has now dropped to 100.8.  It was good this morning and afternoon.  Now it has dropped.  She's under the heat lamp again.

She had 4 shots of the fortified B complex vitamins at 2cc per shot, 12 hours apart.  
She has had 5 shots of Nuflor at 5 cc, once a day.
She has had 4 shots of dexamethasone at 5cc per shot, 12 hours apart.

I asked where the shots were being given and was told the Nuflor and Dexamethasone shots were being given in the neck.  The Nuflor has been happening for 5 days and no swelling till today.  However, the Dexamethasone has only been going on for 2 days.  Could the swelling in the neck be a reaction to it?

Someone, wave the magic wand and make her better.  I am worried she is just slowly dying here.  All this and we're just back where we started only....worse.

Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 6, 2011)

> Eeek!  That's the same calcium drench I bought to keep on hand in case my does show signs of milk fever.  So a calcium injection would be better?  Is it subQ?  Is CMPK even better yet for this?  I couldn't get an Rx for CMPK but I do have the CMPK gel (or paste, don't remember).  Don't have a clue how I'll give it though -  when I ordered it I didn't realize you need a gun to administer it.  It's HUGE and it needs a particular gun tool to squeeze the contents out.  My hubby's caulking gun is too big for it.   I figure if I need it I can stab into it to access the contents.  I should probably figure out what the dose should be in case it's ever needed.


I apologize as I didn't mean to ignore your questions.

I prefer the calcium gluconate injection, personally.  She seemed to show a lot of improvement when we were giving it.  However, the calcium drench appears to have caused a reaction of some sort.

CMPK is wonderful in the liquid form.  You can use it as a drench or SQ.  We have used it as a drench with great results.  However, everyone is out of it right now and it is on backorder for our vet.  So, we got the gel form of it.  The vet said to just feed the CMPK gel at 30cc, 2x a day.  

Hope that helps.


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## Roll farms (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't know what else to tell you to do differently.:/

I've only used Dex once, on a doe that was severely injured and died anyway....I figured it couldn't do anything to make her worse.

It, from what I understand, can lower their immune response.  Perhaps she's getting an infection (despite the Nuflor) b/c of that...?

We're not tired of you posting / asking questions...I just feel useless b/c I'm at the end of my 'try this' knowledge.

I would stop giving the shots in the neck, I've given Nuflor in the butt cheek for a couple of years.  (Neck shots make me nervous).

From what I understand, you have to wean them off of Dex....otherwise I'd be tempted to tell you to stop those, since she's seemed to worsen since they began.

I'd also be tempted to give Banamine or Ibuprofen for the inflammation in her throat.

I'm very sorry, you are doing all you can and more...good luck w/ her.


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## elevan (Mar 6, 2011)

Just because she's on an antibiotic doesn't mean that she cannot get an infection.  There are so many different types of antibiotics because different strains of bacteria are sensitive to different antibiotics.  The Nuflor may not be enough...in the antibiotic department...


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 7, 2011)

We're giving her SQ fluids every 2 hrs again.  Gave her a shot of Pen-G just in case.  Continuing the Fortified B Complex shots.  Gave her some Dextrose and Nutri-Drench.  Massaging her rumen every hour and getting the gas out.  Her temp continues to slowly go down.  She is now at 99.7 despite the heat lamp and blankets.  I know this cannot be good.  

She is holding her head up now and she wasn't earlier, but that is the ONLY improvement I can see.  The dropping temp says it is not enough.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 7, 2011)

She willingly took 30cc CMPK.  This is the first time in some time now that she has taken something without a tube.

Her temp is at 100.2.  I'm not going to get too excited till I see it continue to rise significantly.


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## Roll farms (Mar 7, 2011)




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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

My vet always give pen g in addition to dex.  In the same shot in fact.  Dex will lower the immune system.  I've never used Nuflor, so I don't know about contraindications but I'd be seriously tempted to ask your vet if it's okay to start giving pen/dex in addition to the Nuflor if you continue on the dex.  Roll may be right about switching to another anti-inflammatory like Banamine though and giving her immune system a chance to work.

I am so sorry you're going through this!

ETA: I see you did give her the Pen G.  If it were me I'd continue as long as she's getting dex.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 7, 2011)

We discontinued the dex and switched to baby aspirin (Bayer) last night.  I figure at this point, there's nothing to lose.

She's at 100.6

No other real signs of improvement.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

Im sorry to hear shes not doing well     I would recomend with all the medications she is getting to continue with baking soda and probiotics.  The anitbiotics will strip the rumen of good bacteria too.  And its crucial to keep that rumen in check to keep it going. 

I have heard that some antibiotics will null eachother out.  But I dont know specifics on that.  It was something I heard.  Like in 3 days somethings not working move on to something stronger etc..or more direct to the bacteria.  But dont switch off and on??  

As for the green milk???  Boy O Boy...I never saw that?? Matitis usually will show by tinting the milk redish/brown.   I just dont know?    

But I see the calcium got her temp up????  So I would continue with whats working.   And dont forget the probois and baking soda.  And vitamin B!! Important.  

I wish I had more...this is tough!!  Im really really sorry!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 7, 2011)

Yeah, I am not real antibiotic wise but the vet is going to help me figure that one out.  She was on Nuflor for 5 days, but as of last night we gave her Pen G.

She's has been getting probios every day (10 units), Fortified Vitamin B Complex shots 2x daily, and we're massaging her rumen and getting the gas out hourly.

We mixed dextrose and the calcium gluconate in the bag of fluids we've been injecting her with SQ.  I found directions for doing such and went with it.  Shortly after that, she started holding up her head more, but that is about all the signs of improvement.  She is peeing a lot, poor thing, but at least it means she has some hydration going on.

We're going to hook her up to an IV and start a drip.  I don't know what else to do but I refuse to have her go down without fighting this to the end.  We're all exhausted after a night of no sleep.  In fact I think she might be more alert than we are at this point.  As a mother of 8, I can honestly say having small children was less exhausting than goats but I LOVE our goats and they sass somewhat less most of the time!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

I wish you the best with her!!! I totally agree with you on the fight!! I completely understand!!!  I would do the same.

 Kids are easier!! LOL  At least they can say "my belly hurts" etc...so you dont have to go thru guessing games!! Or decisions trees like a crazy person.

Keep the faith!!!  Im pulling for you!!  

I would try to prop her up with blankets behind her..and try to keep her sitting up.  That is the best position for her for sure.  If you are not already doing that????

     Hoping for a good turn around for you today!!!


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## Roll farms (Mar 7, 2011)

Pen G and Tetracycine are the 2 that cancel eachother out...so I wouldn't switch off of the Pen G now, _but _if the vet recommends it, don't switch to any Tetracyclines.

Also, milk consumption interferes w/ Tetracycline absorption....so (just thinking out loud here) I could see all the calcium supplementation she's getting interfering possibly w/ Tetracycline, too...maybe?

Another thing I'm wondering...is there such a thing as a calcium overdose?  
I've never dealt w/ a severe case of hypocalcemia, so I'm just asking / throwing it out there...but from what I've heard / read, generally a few doses will drastically improve their condition...?  It just seems like if that was the problem, it would have helped by now.  Sooo....Maybe it's too much?

(Again, just asking, because I honestly don't know....)

Another thing, I've always read that it's a condition of heavy milking / producing does...Did I read she produced 3 c a day?  Again, I'm not trying to be problematic or throw another confusing thing in the already confusing mix...but what if Hypocalcemia wasn't ever the problem, and treating for it is now making her worse?

You might ask / talk to the vet and get his opinion on it.....Maybe try just glucose in the drip.

Wondering if the green milk is not a reaction to all the things she's getting pumped into her....b vit will make pee orange....


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

*Roll farms: * Where/How do you get syringes for giving injections?...  Do you need an Rx in order to get them?


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## Roll farms (Mar 7, 2011)

I order mine from Jeffers' Livestock Supply...TSC also carries them but it's much cheaper to buy in bulk.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks Roll..I knew it was something about some anitbiotics nulling eachother out.  And that was it!!! 

On the calcium thing...I do know that overload or too much calcium on the phosphorus/calcium balance will break down the aborption of Vitamin A...which can lead to respitory fullness and a thick nasal discharge.  But you usually see that in kids with coccidia.  I actually had a bout of coccidia with some kids and they were full and the fist thing I thought was pneumonia and my vet said lets try Vitamin A first cuz of the absorption issue.  And he was right..??

Im just thinking outload as well..and speculating as to Rolls thoughts on too much calcium???


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I order mine from Jeffers' Livestock Supply...TSC also carries them but it's much cheaper to buy in bulk.


WOW you guys are able to get a lot through TSC that I can't.  I asked at mine last night and they told me, "we can't sell them even if we wanted to, due to federal regulations" .... :/


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I order mine from Jeffers' Livestock Supply...TSC also carries them but it's much cheaper to buy in bulk.


Just an FYI guys...you can't get them in NH at TSC???  We have to order them through Jeffers.  You can go to Maine and get em...but they dont allow it in NH???  Crazy but true...thats why we order them.  Kinda silly cuz they sell the vaccines in the store...so how the heck would they expect you to adminster them!!!  

Laws they make so much sense sometimes!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
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where in Manie can you get them? Rite Aid? Walgreens? Wal~Mart??? *ETA: Pet supply store? If so, what one?*   Also, are there different sizes/types for goats & chickens that I would need. I have a chicken that NEEDS some PenG... have the PenG, but NO syringes!
*Also ETA: Not meaning to hijack this thread, I just NEED to know asap. *


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I have a chicken that NEEDS some PenG... have the PenG, but NO syringes!
> *Also ETA: Not meaning to hijack this thread, I just NEED to know asap. *


If it's an emergency your vet can sell you a few while you wait on your jeffers/pbs/ect order.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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Thanks!


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
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Our co-op sells syringes and needles. And the vets office.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

Im sure you are sleeping after another long nite...I was wondering how she was doing???


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Im sure you are sleeping after another long nite...I was wondering how she was doing???


Cali, my hen or the OP's animal?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, we lost her despite the oxygen and an IV drip.  She went downhill FAST when she went.  Our poor vet is not used to dealing with these things much less with a goat.  We did a necropsy afterwards to see what we could learn.

Lesson learned:  If you have a slight hint of green to the goat's milk and you do not have a case of mastitis on your hands, the gall bladder is most likely rupturing.

She had a VERY enlarged gall bladder (supposed to be about the size of a half dollar but was the size of a small dinner plate) that had begun to leak.  On the gall bladder she had a growth that was blocking the opening of the small intestines and was also pressing on the esophogus.

We looked the lungs over to see what damage was done by the calcium drench.  It was bad.  I'll never give that stuff again without tubing it and will always flush behind it with water to make sure it doesn't burn anything.  She would have died of the lungs most likely had she not had the gall bladder issue.

It started off with milk fever and we got that under control but the gall bladder was working against us at the same time.

We did run blood samples to make sure there was no toxicity from things I had been giving her.  We were good there but her potassium level was very low despite the CMPK.  They felt that was connected to the gall bladder issue.

I'll miss her but she taught us a TON both living and in death.  I hope it can help yall too somehow.

Thank you everyone for all the help, suggestions and support.  You have my genuine gratitude.

Edited to correct mistakes made due to lack of sleep and to add, "(supposed to be about the size of a half dollar but was the size of a small dinner plate)"


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 7, 2011)

I am so sorry for you loss.  You did an amazing job trying to save her.  Gall bladder - I don't think anyone would have caught it.  I'm glad you were able to get some answers - that doesn't necessarily lessen the pain but the cloud of doubt can be awful.  

Hugs to you and your family.


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## Roll farms (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm so sorry you lost her.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

Ohhh.... I am *SO* sorry for your loss!!!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

OH NOOOOO....Im really sorry you lost her    

Valuable information.  I know how hard it was on you...but thank you so much for sharing this with us.  

I cant tell you how sorry I am for you guys!! You gave her a hell of a shot though!!! You tried everything in your power!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 7, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Gall bladder - I don't think anyone would have caught it.


Nope, no way anyone would ever have guessed that -- but we may in the future, thanks to her sacrifice.  I know that's frigidly cold comfort, but I know I always feel a teeny better after losing a goat if I can say to someone down the road...."I've seen this before!"

Just...wow...her gallbladder, of all things.  

To reiterate what others have said, you really did an amazing job with her.  So sorry she didn't pull through.


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## mossyStone (Mar 7, 2011)

Heartbreaking. i am so sorry......


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm sorry you lost her, but you should take comfort in knowing you went above and beyond and the information you gathered (albeit a tough lesson) is useful to us all.  Again, so sorry.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks everyone.

I hate how things ended and I miss her, but she really did help us learn a few things.

In the end, I can deal with things like this much better if I can get answers to why, how, what, etc. and figure out if there is a way to prevent it from happening again or deal with it better next time.


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## helmstead (Mar 8, 2011)

What a sad loss, I'm so sorry.

This has been a very informative thread, though, thank you for sharing the experiences.


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