# Will BoSe fix this leg?  Update on therapy that is working so far!



## freemotion (May 12, 2011)

He also had the loose hocks that went too far forward, but a day after his first BoSe injection, the hocks are fine.  This crooked leg is rather firmly crooked, however.  I try to "physical therapize" it by gently stretching it towards straight...it feels pretty firm, though.  He can walk and hop on it.  Will more BoSe do the trick?  Any tips for me?


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## Roll farms (May 12, 2011)

Are you saying that it's sort of fixed in that position / won't bend easily?

I'm sorry, I've never had one I couldn't bend, so I'm not sure what to tell you.  

I'm not sure BoSe would help, as the vet explained it to me, it contracts the tendons, making 'loose' ligs tighten up.  Sounds like his may be too tight in that leg.  

I would try to move it as much as possible in the opposite direction, POSSIBLY even brace it straight *if* it will bend, but just goes back automatically.

That's just my gut instinct from your description...what I think and what *needs* to be done may be wayyy polar opposites.


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## freemotion (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I can't really get it to straighten.  The picture is pretty accurate, although it looks like he is bending it to walk.  You can also see that the foot is not directly lined up with the fetlock and cannon bone (called the same in a goat as in a horse?) but deviates inward.  Guess this would be club foot?


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## Snowhunter (May 12, 2011)

I'm just throwing this out there.. I know not much about goats, so take it with a grain of salt..

Horses have what is called a check ligament, at the back of thier knee. If you've ever seen a younger horse "over at the knees", short or tight check ligaments are the generally the cause. They will cut them, or graft extra ligament tissue into them to allow the legs to be straight and plumb, like they should be. (Had a horse injure one when doing hill gallops due to hyperextension)

Now I have NO idea if this can transfer over to goats or not, but its possible. (my gogglefu turned up nuttin tho)


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## ksalvagno (May 13, 2011)

I had an alpaca cria that was like that. The owners took him to the vet. The tendon was too short to do surgery. He would have been walking on his ankle. Unfortunately, the owner had to make the choice to put him down. He was healthy otherwise. If his foot was that way in the womb, then the tendon is probably permanently contracted that way. If it truly is not stretchable at all and you can't get his foot straightened properly, it is probably permanently like that. You may have to make some tough decisions.


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## helmstead (May 13, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> You may have to make some tough decisions.


Not if you're willing to have a pet wether.  They get along fine with fused joints...even really BADLY fused joints.  See?
http://helmsteadstables.com/LG.htm

She's 4  years old and a great babysitter.


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## freemotion (May 13, 2011)

Whoa, he isn't nearly as bad as that Little Gimp!  His hoof does touch the ground.  I will work on the check ligament as well as gently stretching the joint, but it looks like it is too late.  He will do fine as long as he isn't kept with someone who is too rough and knocks him about.

So, it is too late for BoSe for him....So much for religiously keeping fresh minerals out!  I even hand feed everyone when I put fresh ones out a couple of times a week or more.  I make sure everyone gets their share while they are fresh.  Peach, although young, is far from the lowest...she is second in command now, higher than her mom.  So she got all the minerals she wanted.

Let's talk selenium deficiency, please.  Was it because there were three and that was just too many for this doe?


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## 20kidsonhill (May 13, 2011)

I don't think another shot of bo-Se will fix that, Maybe time will straighten it out as the kids grows, maybe bracing, but my guess it may just stay that way, We had a set of triplets born a couple years ago and two of the kids had bent front legs and fused at the knees, but they were bent all the way under the body at the knee, needless to say they didn't make it. This year that same doe had a badly deformed mummy. We are going to try copasure with her next breeding, she does have a fish-tail.


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## helmstead (May 13, 2011)

With LG - she was a litter of triplets out of a SEVERELY malnourished doe.  ALL THREE KIDS were born soft-boned, as in there had been no conversion of the leg cartilage to bone pre-birth.  The, ahem, "breeder" said they were as floppy as rag dolls.  

In that case, it was probably selenium, copper, calcium all together that caused them to be like that.

In your guy's case, I almost wonder, given how tangled up they were, if he wasn't just cramped in-utero and contracted for that reason.  If you can call an equine vet, they have an injection for contracted tendons that works REALLY well on foals (cannot for my life remember what it is!)...


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## ksalvagno (May 13, 2011)

My personal finding is that while they do still need the mineral out every day, I still have to give them shots of Bose twice a year and copper bolus twice a year. The minerals just aren't enough. I'm sure the people who make the minerals are too afraid to make them as strong as they really need to be for fear of a goat overeating it and getting toxicity. I also know that they can only legally put so much selenium into a product that is sold to the masses. My alpaca feed has way more selenium than the average alpaca feed but it is specially mixed and only sold to private alpaca breeders and not in the stores en-mass.

I know there was someone that was having success with kelp but I looked into the cost and it was just too cost  prohibitive for me. A bottle of Bose is $37 for me and goes a long way before I need another bottle.


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## freemotion (May 13, 2011)

All the does got a shot of BoSe when Ginger's kids were a bit loose in the joints about a month ago.  And B vitamins and Red Cell for five days.  All were bolused a couple or three months ago.

The buck got all but the BoSe....now I'm thinking, why didn't I give him BoSe, too?  Guess I should get out there with a needle, huh?

And the young ff doe who is due June 19....she still has rusty thighs in spite of all these efforts.  She is the lowest in the herd, but quick and clever.  I hand feed her the minerals the most.  What else can I do to help her?  She is not big at all, I'm hoping for a tiny, single, properly presented doeling!  On day 150 at noon!   I think I deserve that much from SOMEONE on this farmlet!


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## ksalvagno (May 13, 2011)

I think cmjust0 was experimenting with giving copper monthly or something to help with barberpole. I doubt if he is giving a full dose if he is doing it monthly.

I was using a goat sweet feed which I think the iron in the molasses was inhibiting the copper so I have stopped using it and I'm hoping to see a difference. I know you don't feed that though. I'm also going to give them some organic iodine in the very near future. A friend of mine was  having problems with dandruff and rough coats and the iodine really made a difference.

I really suspect that your little guy was womb placement more than anything. Sometimes that just happens. I also think that with multiples like 3 or more, the kids just don't get enough selenium. With both my quads, I had one kid that I had to give Bose to the day they were born. Also happened to be the largest size kid in both cases.

My personal opinion is that the weather is affecting stuff too. Between the cold winter and all this rain, it has to be affecting stuff. I have never heard of so many problems from so many different people. I was feeling so alone with all the problems I was having with the goats but all I have to do is make a couple phone calls or look on forums and see that this seems to be a very bad year for everything.


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## DonnaBelle (May 13, 2011)

Yes, I agree with Karen about the weather.  We've had 20 inches of rain in the last month.

I can remember in 2005 we were on our knees praying for rain.

The drought was broken the day we started building house out here at the ranch.  It has rained a lot in Oklahoma since May 15 in  2009. LOL.

I know that in Ohio, it's rained even more.  I'm concerned about the animals on farms in the Mississippi river bottoms and the Delta.  

Not only do they have to worry about more parasites, but have to find high ground for their animals.

DonnaBelle


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## freemotion (May 13, 2011)

Thanks for the reminder, I need to water my garden today again!  It has been dry here.  We got a reasonable amount of rain, now it has been dry-dry-dry lately.


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## redtailgal (May 13, 2011)

.............


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## freemotion (May 13, 2011)

That sounds like a plan, I think I'll try that.  I've been massaging (deep tissue, I'm not afraid, lots of experience with people and horses and good palpation skills and feel for tissue change) him everytime he gets a bottle but I will play with splinting this evening after work.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 13, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> All the does got a shot of BoSe when Ginger's kids were a bit loose in the joints about a month ago.  And B vitamins and Red Cell for five days.  All were bolused a couple or three months ago.
> 
> The buck got all but the BoSe....now I'm thinking, why didn't I give him BoSe, too?  Guess I should get out there with a needle, huh?
> 
> And the young ff doe who is due June 19....she still has rusty thighs in spite of all these efforts.  She is the lowest in the herd, but quick and clever.  I hand feed her the minerals the most.  What else can I do to help her?  She is not big at all, I'm hoping for a tiny, single, properly presented doeling!  On day 150 at noon!   I think I deserve that much from SOMEONE on this farmlet!


I don't think you are going to prevent every issue all the time, once and a while things happen. Just saying wouldn't beat yourself up about it. My doe that has had two years in a row triplets with one or two deformed kids both times is the heaviest meatiest doe out there, she looks sturdy and well taken care of. Keep scratching our heads wondering what the heck is going on. maybe a problem with a part of her uterus?  mineral problem?  Had to be pulled both times to get the deformed kids out?  What did survive were amazing and went on to have great results in the show rink. But hard to sell any of her does for breeding stock, not knowing what is going on. Her offspring are all considered terminal at this point and time, And we have decided to supplement her heavy with copper this year and if we don't have better results on her next kidding it will be her last time.  

And I will second the no complaining about the rain, I am even trying not to complain about having to treat extra for cocci this season. We had no pasture most of last summer.

 Bring on The Rain!!!


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## freemotion (May 13, 2011)

OK, update already!  Taking the info gleaned from several of you and piecing it together, this is what I have been doing....Deep tissue massage (skilled, mind you, I am an instructor and teach continuing ed, too, no fluff-n-buff massage here, I work with people and horses to improve range of motion and improve performance with some national caliber athletes) on the check ligaments and on the ligaments of the knee, fetlock, and pasterns, the flexor tendons, with ROM warm-ups before and stretching after.  I work to the depth that just makes him squeak, but then the little sweetie lays his head on me and sighs.   (Uh-oh!  )  I do this 4-5 times a day, after each bottle and then if I get a chance to visit in between.

Tonight I had to look at him a couple of times in the low light to remember which leg it was!  So I didn't splint it.  He still walks carefully on it and isn't really hopping around with the others much yet, but then again, he is probably a little sore after his therapy and that is always when I see him.

This will be a nice little science experiment....


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## Roll farms (May 14, 2011)

Are you giving him anything for pain / inflamation?

Not sayin' ya should, mind...just wondering if that would help / alter / change how he's using it.  Just thinking out loud / absorbing this so that if it comes up, I'll know.

Thanks for sharing this w/ us!

PS...can you come do some deep tissue therapy on my sore, overdoing it in the garden self, please and thanks????


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## Snowhunter (May 14, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> OK, update already!  Taking the info gleaned from several of you and piecing it together, this is what I have been doing....Deep tissue massage (skilled, mind you, I am an instructor and teach continuing ed, too, no fluff-n-buff massage here, I work with people and horses to improve range of motion and improve performance with some national caliber athletes) on the check ligaments and on the ligaments of the knee, fetlock, and pasterns, the flexor tendons, with ROM warm-ups before and stretching after.  I work to the depth that just makes him squeak, but then the little sweetie lays his head on me and sighs.   (Uh-oh!  )  I do this 4-5 times a day, after each bottle and then if I get a chance to visit in between.
> 
> Tonight I had to look at him a couple of times in the low light to remember which leg it was!  So I didn't splint it.  He still walks carefully on it and isn't really hopping around with the others much yet, but then again, he is probably a little sore after his therapy and that is always when I see him.
> 
> This will be a nice little science experiment....


Oh Free! I'm so glad to hear he's doin better!!!!


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## freemotion (May 14, 2011)

No meds, I don't think he is THAT sore, just right after I crank on his legs.  But today.....HE HOPPED!!!!  And didn't fall!  I will give him a couple more days and then will take more pics and maybe some video to track his progress.  I am so pleased and relieved.  It was the check ligament comment that got my mind working  and off panic mode and into "I KNOW this stuff, this is what I DO" mode.

Yes, Rolls, I'd love to work your kinks out and Helmstead, too, as thanks for all your help.  You'd probably feel like you were run over by a truck for a day, and then you'd say, "Hallelujah!  I can move again!"


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## redtailgal (May 14, 2011)

.............


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## helmstead (May 14, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Yes, Rolls, I'd love to work your kinks out and Helmstead, too, as thanks for all your help.  You'd probably feel like you were run over by a truck for a day, and then you'd say, "Hallelujah!  I can move again!"


I get deep tissues for migraines...it's not a truck, it's a high speed train knocking you off a cliff!!!

Glad hes doing better!


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## Roll farms (May 14, 2011)

I'd make you goat milk fudge.....
Odd how we're all willing to reward you for giving us pain.:/


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## freemotion (May 14, 2011)

Yes, I marvel at it as each client whines on the table then pays me generously afterwards!


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## freemotion (Jun 29, 2011)

I remembered this thread today as I was admiring this little brown buckling.  Here he is, on the far right of the photo.  It is impossible to tell which leg was deformed, even though the grass covers it in this picture.  He runs and plays like any of his siblings.


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## Roll farms (Jun 29, 2011)




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## ksalvagno (Jun 29, 2011)




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## Snowhunter (Jun 29, 2011)

Glad to hear it Free!!!


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