# Livestock guardian dog trouble



## kikogoatgirl (Feb 8, 2019)

Hello, I have had a dog named Bolt for 3 years. He is a Great Pyrenees think he is 3-4 years old now. He has been acting aggressive to the goats and us for a few days. Yesterday and today he would not let Curvehorn (the mamma goat) get to her 2 babies. I tried to get a baby yesterday and he snapped at me, and this morning My mom was getting some water that was by bolt, and he tried to bite her. While Bolt was eating, I had time to move the baby goats, to a different place to where Bolt would not know about them, he found them and started chasing curvehorn. I noticed this morning Curvehorn had a cut on her ear, and I think it was from bolt chasing her.
Has anyone else had this problem with livestock guardian dog/Great Pyrenees?


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## Rammy (Feb 8, 2019)

@Southern by choice to the rescue. She knows alot about LGD as well as @Ridgetop . Hope you get the answers you need to help you.


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## Mike CHS (Feb 9, 2019)

A little more info will help.  How long has the dog been in with your livestock and how is the 'normal' behavior around them?


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## Ridgetop (Feb 9, 2019)

We need more information about Bolt and the circumstances.

How old was he when you got him?
What was his history before you got him?
Has he been with livestock the entire time or have you recently put him in with the goats?
How did he act with the goats before?
Is this the first time he has been around newborn kids and their mama?
Has he ever showed aggression to you or family members before?
Is he current on all his vaccinations?

Showing aggression to your mom and you is dangerous.  That worries me more than him trying to steal Curvehorn's kids. Some young guardian dogs get over excited when lambs or kids arrive and try to steal them from the mamas.  Has Bolt been with newborn kids before?  Or is this the first time he has been in with them? You have to teach them to be polite and respectful to the mothers.  It usually happens with young dogs, particularly young  males who seem to absolutely love newborns.  Our 3 year old Anatolian has been in training to calm down around the newborns for 2 seasons now and is finally getting the picture after lots of training.   

If he has been with your family and has never been aggressive before, I would put a muzzle on him (if he is snapping and trying to bite you) and take him to the vet for a checkup.  There could be some physical problem that is causing him to act this way.

Please give us more information about the circumstances and any background information you have.  A dog should not show aggression to his family.  Some guardian dog breeds are more dominant than others, but should _never growl, snap, or bite_ at family members.


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## babsbag (Feb 10, 2019)

I had one that turned aggressive at about 3 years of age. I had had him since he was 8 weeks old. He started going under the shed and growling at me or anything else that looked at him. At first I thought that he was resource guarding some eggs but that was not the case; he had just claimed that area as his. There was no other real problems but his growling at me certainly set me on edge.  Then one day he attacked my boer buck.  The buck had butted him, but not hard, and my dog turned and snapped at him, which I was ok with. But then he went after the goat, chasing and biting him. I called him off and he did it again, and again. He brought the buck down and the buck was screaming.  I finally got the dog on a leash and he was growling and fighting all the way...he wanted that buck. He scared me...a lot. I had him put down that day as I could no longer trust him around the animals or around me. A very sad day.


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## Rammy (Feb 10, 2019)

Sorry to hear(read) that @babsbag. I certainly hope a solution can be found for the OP. Unfortunately, Ive seen alot of new threads on here concerning LGDs turning on thier owners or on the livestock.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 10, 2019)

@babsbag did the right thing, as sad as it was.  

Any dog that bites its owners and is aggressive to its own family should be destroyed.  _Any_ _breed_ of dog including toy dogs.  If the dog is a rescue or rehomed, there may be a reason in the dog's past, but that is no excuse to allow the behavior. The dog needs to be destroyed before it does serious damage to it's humans.  Babsbag's goat was badly injured and she was able to pull the dog off it, but what if it had attacked her or her family members?   You did the right thing @babsbag.

Some dogs can also have strokes just like people and suffer brain damage, causing them to behave dangerously.  I had a dog that after 12 years of coexistence with our poultry running free, suddenly killed every last one of them.


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## babsbag (Feb 10, 2019)

It was not an experience I wish to repeat. But my two young females got into a fight to end all today and I may have to re-home one. I am just not set up to keep them separated and I need them working together. One is in a kidding pen tonight as I don't think they can go back together. I am really at a loss as to what to do. 

@Southern by choice do you have any experience with spaying doing any good with females that fight?


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## Rammy (Feb 11, 2019)

@babsbag are these sisters or unrelated? And they got along until now? Sorry your having such a hard time, too.


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## babsbag (Feb 11, 2019)

@Rammy, they are unrelated unspayed females. They are both about 3 years old. They have had a edgy relationship since they matured and a about 18 months ago I thought of rehoming one and then they seemed to settle in. Yesterday my male got after Alondra, the least dominant dog, for getting too close to a doe that had baby goat leg hanging out of her. He is all bluff and was just going to give her a warning. But while he had her down Mia decided to join the fray. My male left the scene and the girls carried on and on. One would relax and the other would attack again and it went back and forth. I finally wrapped a leash around Mia's middle section and hauled he into a kidding pen. She was still growling at ANY dog that walked near her pen 12 hours later.


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## Rammy (Feb 11, 2019)

Wow. Sorry to hear that. Im sure your upset about it. Its too bad we cant talk to them and them to us to understand whats going on. Its too bad you may have to rehome one.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 11, 2019)

Geeze - sorry they're being so short-tempered.  I wonder if spaying would calm them down....


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## Devonviolet (Feb 11, 2019)

Wow Babs!  How frustrating.  I’m not an expert, but I have heard that generally speaking, it works best to put a male and female together and not put two females together, when it comes to working LGDs.  If I remember correctly (and our experience has been) that the female is the alpha and the male is more laid back. Two alpha don’t work well together.

We got our two pure bred Maremma’s in Kansas, from an alpaca ranch. They had four working LGDs, in multiple pastures - 3 females and one male.  Not too long before I picked up our puppies, the breeder had a problem with two of their females fighting and one getting hurt.  They had tried several combinations of different dogs. They finally decided that they just wouldn’t put females together, because all of their fighting.  I can’t say that happens in all cases, but it isn’t the first time I have heard of that.

Do you have separate pens you can put them and their goats in?

I’m sure SBC will have good advise for you, and I hope you can find a way to keep your LGD.


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## Baymule (Feb 11, 2019)

That's tough @babsbag. My female GP hated my Female Aussie and it was a mutual hatred. The Aussie (35 pounds) would pile into Paris and the killing was on. It took both of us to separate them, then take the Aussie to the vet. Paris also hated all other dogs except the male GP, and it took her awhile to warm up to him. The Aussie died 2 years ago. We had Paris spayed last year. We have a 7 month old puppy, lab/Great Dane and would you believe that Paris now happily romps around with both of our other dogs? her whole attitude changed. 

So what did it? The female Aussie dying and not being around for that mutual hatred any more? Spaying? Old age? I think it was the spaying. She has calmed sown and is not the WITCH she used to be. 

Will it work for your dogs? I don't know and do you really want to spay both of them to find out that it failed to make them get along?


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

Our older female Weimaraner, male Weimaraner, and Rika were waiting at the gate when we got home one day shortly after we had gotten our 18 months old Anatolian bitch.  Until then the dogs had seemed to be getting along.  Unbeknownst to us Rika was coming into season. The Weimie bitch was spayed, and the male was intact.  He was a champion and still showing in specials classes so we couldn't neuter him.  DH started to go into the yard through the gate.  I tried to stop DH and tell him to go into the house through the garage instead, but he had opened the gate anyway and started in.  The Anatolian was shoving the other 2 out of the way to be the first to greet DH.  The Weimie bitch growled as she was pushed aside and the Anatolian promptly turned and attacked her brutally.  Poor Didi was trapped behind the gate and couldn't get away, the male Weimie took the opportunity to push himself forward to greet DH, blocking the entryway.  Both DH and I tried to get through the gate together to stop the Anatolian from killing the Weimie.  Utter pandemonium ensued!

When we finally pulled the Anatolian off Didi she had deep punctures and tears on her back and side.  That is when we discovered that the Anatolian was coming into season.  I couldn't spay her while she was in season - bleeding danger too high.  We patched up Didi and for the next 3 weeks incarcerated the Anatolian (to the sadness of the male Weimie) in the kennel run.  Once the dogs were together again the Anatolian would constantly threaten or attack the Weimie.  The Weimie bitch was not an alpha bitch at all.  Finally, after months of musical dog in the kennel run, they seemed to come to an understanding.  But it was a very iffy situation.  6 months later we rehomed the male for other reasons, and Didi died a year later.

Our breeder told us that Anatolians get very nasty with PMS when they come into season and he frequently has to separate bitches during that time.  He rarely keeps mature bitches of the same age together although he can keep younger bitches together and bitches of different ages together.  Adult Anatolian males cannot be kept together at all.  Rika is now almost 7, our second Anatolian is a male almost 3, and the new puppy is a bitch.  There will be enough age difference between her and the puppy that they will not fight since Rika will be the dominant bitch. 

Our Pyrenees bitch used to get cranky when she came into season and the dogs would have a growling, snarling noise fight which did not last long.  Watching our Anatolian go after Didi gave a whole other meaning to the term "bitch fight". You can certainly try spaying the bitches, it will definitely level off the hormones.  On the other hand, if they have never been good friends, they may carry this grudge afterwards.

What breed are they?  GPs usually get along with each other in a group situation.  Our Pyrs got along, but with our Anatolians we have to be careful.


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## babsbag (Feb 12, 2019)

One is an anatolian and the other is a mix of anatolian/Kangal/Akbash, and ovcharka. My oldest female is about 8 or 9 years old, and she is the same mix, but not one messes with her. She doesn't fight, ever. She just gives them that "look". Perhaps there is something to that age thing, I had never heard that before, but it sure seems to be the case here. I don't know what I will be doing, keeping them apart permanently is just going to be a management nightmare for me. Plus whatever dog ends up living in the buck pen will seldom get any interaction with me as I don't visit with the bucks. And while my dogs are LGDs and have a job they are also my partners and friends; we are very bonded.


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## Devonviolet (Feb 12, 2019)

That is definitely a frustrating situation. Have the two females, that fought been with all of the goats?  If so, they should be bonded with all of them, and maybe you could rotate them between paddocks, but just make sure they aren’t together anymore.


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## Baymule (Feb 12, 2019)

You're between a rock and a hard place.


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## babsbag (Feb 12, 2019)

It is a horrible place to be in. I have never rehomed an adult dog or cat...NEVER. When I take an animal (not goats) I take it for life. Both of these girls and MINE and this hurts a lot. Mia is in the house right now but it adds a lot of shuffling to my routine to have her in here. I won't leave her loose in the yard when I am gone as she could jump the fence with ease so I put her in the dog run. But if I am going to be gone for more than an hour or so I usually put my other dogs in the run and they can't all go in there together. Mia is definitely dominant and displays that trait with one of my Border Collies which does not go over well at all. I won't leave them alone together when I go out to do chores either. So the BCs go to my bedroom and Mia stays in the house. Of course if isn't raining I can put on or the other outside. Gosh it gets confusing. 

I do have another field I could put Mia in but she would never see me. It is with the bucks and I am never in with the bucks, I just feed them. I am thinking that she would miss me.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 13, 2019)

babsbag said:


> I do have another field I could put Mia in but she would never see me. It is with the bucks and I am never in with the bucks, I just feed them. I am thinking that she would miss me.


It's worth a try....   The time that you save by not shuffling dogs around might give you a little bit of extra time to spend with Mia...?


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## Ridgetop (Feb 13, 2019)

Devonviolet said:


> That is definitely a frustrating situation. Have the two females, that fought been with all of the goats?  If so, they should be bonded with all of them, and maybe you could rotate them between paddocks, but just make sure they aren’t together anymore.



Definitely try rotating the 2 females between the bucks and the does.  If you rotate every couple of days, it should be ok.  That way you can spend time with them as they alternate.  By rotating their guarding duties neither one will feel abandoned or slighted.  Once they are separated it might work out.  I would also spay both of them since estrus hormones really make Anatolians cranky.  One is an Anatolian Ovcharka mix too, and I have heard from owners that have both that Ovcharka temperament make Anatolians look like bunny rabbits.  LOL 

The older female has no need to fight with the younger females to establish dominance.  She is already the alpha bitch and has proven herself the dominant dog since they were puppies.  They acknowledge her authority.  The reason they are fighting now is that they are both the same age - 3 years old.  They are now mature bitches, the same age and I am guessing same approximate size.  They are both dominant breeds.  They are fighting now to establish who will be the dominant bitch.  This is common with Anatolians, males and females alike.  Anatolian bitches are very dominant in their own right.  They will fight to establish their leadership.  In extreme cases one will kill the other to establish dominance within the pack.


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## AlaynaMayGoatLady (Feb 15, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> The older female has no need to fight with the younger females to establish dominance. She is already the alpha bitch and has proven herself the dominant dog since they were puppies. They acknowledge her authority. The reason they are fighting now is that they are both the same age - 3 years old.


I had a very similar situation last year with one of my Border collie bitches and our GP/BC LGD bitch. They are about six months apart in age. Fiona (the BC bitch) was only about a year old when I started noticing that she was always bugging Flossie, the LGD. It got worse and worse, especially when Flossie came into season. Fiona would camp next to the kennel and bark/ growl at her. Fortunately, Flossie was very longsuffering and wouldn't try to bite Fiona in half, but she would eventually lose her temper and put her flat on the ground. There were a few other things going on with Fiona (she wasn't turning out to be the kind of dog I want for breeding) and the last straw came when she picked a fight with Flossie and bit through her eyelid, right above her eye. An overnight vet visit and almost $400 later, I sold Fiona to a pet home. NOT a good experience. I will now attempt to have a little more of an age gap between dogs or I will probably end up having to lock up one or other of my young bitches when they rub each other the wrong way.
     I think it definitely has a lot to do with age and hormones. Both Fiona and Flossie are intact. They were both a couple of months out of season at the time of the fight, but Fiona never had a problem with another dog.

Going back to the original question:


kikogoatgirl said:


> Hello, I have had a dog named Bolt for 3 years. He is a Great Pyrenees think he is 3-4 years old now. He has been acting aggressive to the goats and us for a few days.



     This might be totally unnecessary to mention, but some people hold to the idea that LGD's should not be socialized because then they will want to be with people instead of guarding their stock. That idea is really, really wrong and dangerous, in my opinion. An unsocialized dog is a hazard, and a big dog, like a GP, can be deadly. A dog that will be a good LGD will instinctively guard stock. Training helps a lot, but if they are so easily distracted from the stock that socialization takes them away, then they probably would not have made a good LGD anyway. Unsocialized dogs end up in shelters or getting shot because they are dangerous.
     I hate to say it, but Bolt should almost definitely be put down, especially if his behavior has been iffy in the past. If there is some major cause for him to growl (like a broken leg or other severe, painful injury) that's some excuse, but him being that possessive over the kids is a huge problem. He knows you and should never, ever growl at you, unless - possibly - you are in the act of hurting him for some reason. Like if you accidentally ran his paw over and you were trying to get it out from under the wheel of your car, or if you had to give him a painful shot. In that case he would be growling at the pain, not really at you, and that is a bit of a different situation. Threatening to bite is a major issue and cannot be overlooked. A dog that size can kill a person in moments if they turn bad.
     Of course, the above is just my opinion. I love dogs (we have 7 - 4 Border collies, a GP/BC, a BC/ Springer spaniel, and a GP)and I know how hard it is to put one down because it turns mean. But people are always more important than dogs and you cannot risk the lives and safety of people by keeping a potentially aggressive dog.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 15, 2019)

@kikigoatgurl
Sorry we got off the subject of Bolt.  What did you decide to do with him?  Has he continued the aggression towards you and your mom?  If he continues snapping and trying to bite you and your mom, you should really put him down. He is dangerous.  Consider too, if he attacked a visitor.  Big lawsuit waiting to happen!


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## kikogoatgirl (Feb 18, 2019)

Thank you everyone for your advice. He has shown aggression towards the goats and us in the past, he has chased the goats repeatedly, and he has barked at and bit my younger GP dog. He has separated the mamma goats from the babies before, and I noticed that Curvehorn had cuts on her ears, I think that is from Bolt chasing her. We had to put Bolt down. It is so sad, but we did some research and it sounded like the best thing.


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## Rammy (Feb 18, 2019)

Sorry you had to do that. Having to make decisions like that is never easy.


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## Mini Horses (Feb 18, 2019)

I am sorry and know it hurt to do this.   But it was the humane and only decision, considering his aggression.  RIP Bolt.    Hoping you are able to accept that you had little choice, even tho you loved him.  These decisions are the hardest part of loving them.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 18, 2019)

You did the right thing.  I sympathize because you are obviously feeling bad about the decision you had to make.  Bolt was dangerous to you, your mom. and the goats.  That is not a livestock guardian dog.  That is a tragedy waiting to happen. 

It is sad for you right now, but think how much sadder it would have been if Bolt had attacked you or your mom.  A large LGD has enough power to kill a human quickly.  It sounds as though he was getting more aggressive too.  It was necessary to protect your family.  Bolt was not a dog that could be placed with a rescue or rehomed either.  This solution was better for him and for you.


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## Baymule (Feb 18, 2019)

This had to be an agonizing decision. Doing the right thing is all too often the hardest thing. I gave your post a like because you showed courage in making that decision.


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