# Lost a beautiful doe Friday night.  :(



## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2009)

Some of you my remember the thread I posted earlier last week about the scouring wether..  It was a pretty loose scour and he was a little bit droopy, so we treated him..  One dose of di-methox, a shot of banamine, and some pepto and he turned right around and was making pellets by Thursday..  I was never even truly convinced that he had anything bacterial, because I didn't see that much in the way of water or mucous...just looked like maybe an extra-loose greenish-brown scour to me, which could be anything.

Well, my wife called late Thursday afternoon and said one of our does had the runs..  We figured it was probably the same thing the wether had -- if he had anything at all! -- so we treated with di-methox and a shot of banamine when I got home, followed by pepto later.

Just after treating her, we noticed that the wether seemed a little droopy again.  My wife was petting him and I swear you guys...he went from pellets to clumpy-pellets to a log to a 'tube' to a really liquid scour from one BM to the next -- in no more than **3 minutes** tops.  It was truly shocking..

Given the way he and the doe were scouring and acting exactly the same, I felt confident at that point that it was bacterial and due to some kind of environmental contaminant that they'd both gotten into..  I actually figured the wether's case was probably a relapse as I didn't follow up with the di-methox -- again, I hadn't been entirely convinced on Tuesday that it was bacterial, and I didn't want to upset his GI any more than it already had been.

After seeing his rapid downhill slide, though, we hit _him_ with di-methox again, too..  It's about 7pm at this point.  Both goats are anorexic...they'll go stand with their heads in the hay bunk and almost "pretend" to eat, but they won't eat..  It was so strange to see.  Both are acting exactly the same way..

After treatment, we waited nervously..  I called the vet for any extra advice at about 10pm just because whatever this was seemed so fast and so powerful...they advised hitting them both with oxytetracycline and to worm them just in case, so I did that (wormed with fenbendazole...figured it wsa less icky for goats that are already feeling horrible, and I *knew* this wasn't worms)..  Otherwise, I was told I had "a pretty good start on it so far" with what I was already doing...di-methox, banamine, electrolytes, pepto, blankets, b-complex, etc..  

Both goats continued more or less the same until the wether brightened up tremendously and suddenly at about 2am or thereabout...ate, drank, tried to eat my hat, etc.  Like his old self, almost.  The doe hadn't perked up at that point, but we figured it was just taking her longer...  

At about 5am, we hit her with di-methox again because she just wasn't getting any better.  Though I regret it so much now, I truly didn't feel it was a good idea to switch anti-bacterials at the time because di-methox had seemed to work for the wether...  Whatever this was, in my mind, it was susceptible to di-methox.

She faked me out at about 7:15am...she seemed to have perked up a bit, so I took off toward the vet's office with two fecals just to see if there was anything they could tell..  I felt pretty OK, though, like we'd turned the corner with both of them..  The vet got me a few syringes of Naxcel, and I thought for sure we'd get it whooped..  Called in to work.

By the time I got home maybe 2.5hrs later, she was much, much worse..  We brought her in the house to keep her warm, continued giving her as much electrolyte as she'd take, and we waited for her to turn around..  She never did..  Just as we were hitting desperation mode and were looking to try other meds, she'd lost the ability to swallow...  

We put her on warm lactated ringers SQ and got half a bag in her..  We put a heating pad under the blankets...  Ugh..  Suffice it to say that her story only gets worse from there, and she passed that night with her head in my wife's lap as she begged her not to go..

The only way I can describe the whole situation is absolute shock and devastation..  

We did the math and she passed _maybe_ 30 hours after symptoms were noted, and she was absolutely perfect a mere 48 hours before the time of her death.

I had the vet send the samples off to be cultured, as I still have no idea what we were dealing with.  I'm not sure I trust the diagnostic lab to be of much help, but we'll see.

Something that really sucks is that at about 4pm or so Friday -- just a few hours before the doe died -- the wether started to go droopy again..  He's mope around with his head to the grass but wasn't eating.  I went out to check on him and he ground his teeth as I approached.  I hadn't given him a shot of banamine since Tuesday, and this was Friday, so he got another shot and another dose of di-methox..  He perked up and ate that night, but I was really worried that he was going to turn again..  

At that point, I came to believe that he was only doing as well as he was because he's a big, strong, fleshy wether -- and a hybrid at that -- and that he simply had the reserves to power through the illness with a bit of help from the di-methox.....whereas, the doe didn't...but that the di-methox wasn't really working afterall.  Helping _him_ -- yes; effective against this bug -- not really.

Basically, I said "Screw this!" and hit him with about 3.5cc of borrowed spectam scour-halt...just to try something different.  He was still scouring 12hrs later, so I hit him with it again..  He started to firm up just the tiniest bit, so we laid off the scour-halt (didn't want to shut him down) and probiosed him..  He was still getting Naxcel and b-shots, too..  He picked around at hay and forage all day Saturday, but he wasn't chowing down like normal..  We probiosed him, continued b-complex, electrolytes in his water, etc....

Yesterday morning, he was like a brand-new goat -- pellets and all.  I almost couldn't believe it.  Ate like a HORSE all day long.  I was so happy, yet so truly pissed off at myself for not doing the same for the doe..  

I've replayed the entire thing a million times in my mind, and I sooooo wish I'd just hit the both of them with scour-halt from the get go..  I even went so far as to kinda chide myself into saying screw the wisdom about not running for the antibiotics and antibacterials at the first sign of a scour -- I'm scour-halting from now on, regardless!

But....no.  I won't..  Indeed, we were tested immediately, as one of our other does loosened up yesterday.  She kept her appetite and seemed perfectly fine otherwise, and it was just like dog-turdish pseudo-scour with no significant fluid loss.  I had to resist an almost-overwhelming urge to dose her with scour-halt, but we just probiosed her and waited..  As of this morning, she's no looser than she was and she was standing with a cud when I went to visit..  

I'm even pretty doggone sure I know why the latest doe loosened up, too...we opened up more pasture to the goats just to sorta dilute the area that the two sick goats had been roaming and possibly contaminating.  We had even already pretty much predicted that someone would loosen up because of it and confuse the entire situation, but we still felt it was prudent to open more clean forage..

Ugh..  I'm really sorry this post was so long, but I just feel like a total FAILURE right now and needed to get it all out..  I'm not sure what they had, but hindsight's just giving me a royal beatdown right now..  My practical side says...duh...if we always knew ahead of time what we were dealing with, _everything_ could be saved.  

Still...I just hate it _so much_..  I had to rescue this doe out of a near coma and bottle raise her on account of a neglectful FF mother..  Also had to tape her feet up because she developed contracted tendons a day after birth.  Of all the goats, I personally felt the strongest connection to the one we lost.  And she was soooo beautiful...long bodied, graceful, not too much slope past the hip bones, good udder attachment, sweet but playful disposition..  She was just a real beauty and would certainly have been bred in the coming weeks..  We were looking forward to her kids more than anyone else's..  

I mean...I just feel AWFUL...she wasn't even 2 years old, you guys..


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## lilhill (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your doe.  It's heartbreaking to lose one that you are especially attached to.  Could it have been entero that took her so fast?


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## cmjust0 (Oct 5, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your doe.  It's heartbreaking to lose one that you are especially attached to.


thanks.  



			
				lilhill said:
			
		

> Could it have been entero that took her so fast?


Forgot to mention that part...she was boostered 6mo ago and I pushed 40ml of C&D antitoxin SQ between about 5am Friday morning and the time of her death -- no real improvement, save for the fake-out perkiness at 7:15am..  Thinking back, that was probably more wishful thinking than anything, as she really only just looked up at me and sniffed my face a little...which she hadn't done in a while.  Not like she jumped up and shook off, ya know?

Anyway...that said, I really don't think it was entero..  Based on what I've read and heard from others, though, it was just like entero.  Terrible scours, pain, anorexia, drunken acting, progressive weakening, rapid death..  

I wish it had been entero, frankly...maybe the antitoxin would have worked.


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## mossyStone (Oct 5, 2009)

I am so sorry for you loss...... it's just heart breaking....



Cyndi


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## kimmyh (Oct 5, 2009)

I'm sorry you are having such are hard time. Is the new pasture lush? Are you preventative treating for cocci? Treating once and then waiting with DiMethox is worse than no treatment, it only make the cocci stronger, you need a full 14 days for it too be effective. If you have more goats come down with whatever it is, I would look at the feed, could it have Salmonella? Do you have a lot of wildlife in your area, it could be Guardia (sp). If it is Guardia, the treatment is pretty simple.


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## mully (Oct 5, 2009)

Sorry you lost her! We do all we can and sometimes just can't help.
God Bless !!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 5, 2009)

I am sooo sorry you lost your doe. It is so hard to lose one. Animals are so stoic and hide signs of illness so well that so many times it really does sneak up on us. I hope the rest of your herd is ok.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 6, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> I'm sorry you are having such are hard time. Is the new pasture lush?


The new area wasn't really 'new' per se, it had just been closed off for a while and had grown up just a little bit.

Besides...if you go back and take another look, you'll see that it wasn't opened up until _after_ the doe had died and the wether had turned around enough to forage.  We just wanted to try and dilute the risk for the rest of the goats, in case the barnyard was super contaminated with something..  



			
				kh said:
			
		

> Are you preventative treating for cocci?


Thing about coccidiosis is that it's usually a housing/sanitation problem.  Our goats eat what little grain they get from from clean pans, their hay is in a rack, and they have their water refreshed once a day.  If someone happens to poop in a water bucket or feed pan, it gets bleached before it's used again.

Still, these were adults who had been on grain with deccox.  Not much grain, but as the vet told me with regard to deccox -- "It doesn't _take_ much."



			
				kh said:
			
		

> Treating once and then waiting with DiMethox is worse than no treatment, it only make the cocci stronger, you need a full 14 days for it too be effective.


As for treating and waiting with DiMethox being worse than not treating...here's the thing..._the doe died in day._ 

Had I thought it was coccidia, I'd have treated accordingly, but I didn't.  And I was right.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that had I continued with di-methox on the wether instead of switching to spectinomycin, he'd be dead too.



			
				kimmyh said:
			
		

> If you have more goats come down with whatever it is, I would look at the feed, could it have Salmonella?


It was just the two, though everyone else is on the same regimen...same hay, same grain, same water, same pasture.  

They're all fine.

The grain is commercially prepared pelleted 16% medicated goat grain from an _extremely_ reputable feed mill.  On Breeders Cup Day in 2001, over 50% of the American starters were fed products from this feedmill.



			
				kimmyh said:
			
		

> Do you have a lot of wildlife in your area, it could be Guardia (sp). If it is Guardia, the treatment is pretty simple.


They got fenbendazole Thursday night on the vet's advice, _just in case_ it was parasite related...but fenbendazole kills giardia, too.  Plus, like I said...these were _adults_.  If they were babies and had come down with something this acute, I'd be more suspicious of protozoans.  Given their ages, though, I feel certain they'd been challenged and built up at least enough resistance to protozoans to not go from perfectly fine to _near death_ and dead in less than 36 hours.

Plus...what really turned the wether was spectinomycin.  If it was anything besides bacterial, would that be the case?

I don't think so, personally.  I feel confident that I called it accurately from the get go, and my vets agree -- my mistake was in underestimating the seemingly incredible pathogenicity of whatever the hell organism it was with which we were dealing.

I'll never make that mistake again..  

If I suspect a bacterial scour in another goat -- ever -- it'll get something hard and heavy from the very beginning instead of _trying_ a sulfa drug first, which I only did in an attempt to limit the risk of unnecessary collateral damage to the natural flora of the GI..

Had I only known.....but, hindsight is 20/20.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 6, 2009)

Well, we buried the doe last night.  Couldn't figure out if we wanted to send her to the diagnostic lab and let them tell us she died of parasites -- which is what they rubberstamp ALL dead goats, apparently -- or have her cremated.  Cremation is expensive, and frankly, we were a little weirded out by the idea that we might get back a few grams of someone's poodle and that a few grams of her would go on to the next person..

So, we buried her..  She'd grown into such a beautifully long, tall goat that it took a really long time to get a suitable grave completed.  Ended up being 4'Lx3'Wx3'D, and we're going to build a raised bed flower garden over it to get her at least 4' deep.  

It was pretty chilly outside last night, so the deep clay felt warm in my hands.  Oddly, that made my wife and I feel a little better...to know that when it's freezing cold, she'll be warm, and when it's scorching hot, she'll be cool.  

My wife helped to dig, and to cover.  I know it always helps me toward closure and peace to personally dig the grave for something I've loved and lost...  She was pretty adament about doing her part of the work, so I get the sense that she probably got something out of it as well..  I hope so, anyway.

But all the other goats seem OK so far, and we're so thankful for that.  No more scours (knock on wood)..  Eating, drinking, and being goofy, for the most part.  The lost doe's full sister seems a little...lost, I guess, from time to time.  Their mama's out there and they all three laid together quite a bit, but she and her sister were bottle raised and bonded to _us_ and _each other_ more than anyone else.  It's heartbreaking because, every now and again, she'll take a break from foraging and just look up and scan around...I'm sure she's looking to see where her sister might be..  

The whole situation just sucks.  

Thank you all for the kind words.  It helps.


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## kimmyh (Oct 6, 2009)

Okay cmjust0 I get it, I can be a little slow sometimes but when someone hits me in the head time after time I get it. You know it all, you do it your way, no problem, I just won't post anything to you in the future. It must be horrible to live such an unhappy life that you have to spit at everyone who takes an interest in your goat deaths.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks, kimmy.  Super helpful, especially right now.


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## kimmyh (Oct 6, 2009)

Helpful is exactly what I HAD been trying to be, but that is not what you wanted, no problem.


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## lilhill (Oct 6, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Well, we buried the doe last night.  Couldn't figure out if we wanted to send her to the diagnostic lab and let them tell us she died of parasites -- which is what they rubberstamp ALL dead goats, apparently -- or have her cremated.  Cremation is expensive, and frankly, we were a little weirded out by the idea that we might get back a few grams of someone's poodle and that a few grams of her would go on to the next person..
> 
> So, we buried her..  She'd grown into such a beautifully long, tall goat that it took a really long time to get a suitable grave completed.  Ended up being 4'Lx3'Wx3'D, and we're going to build a raised bed flower garden over it to get her at least 4' deep.
> 
> ...


Yes, it does suck when you work so hard to solve the puzzle and save their lives and it's still not enough.    Sometimes, no matter what we do, we lose them.  And that's the really, really tough part.  My heart hurts for you and your family over your loss.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 6, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Helpful is exactly what I HAD been trying to be, but that is not what you wanted, no problem.


Kimmy...just because your suggestions of new pasture, coccidiosis, feed contaminants, and giardia as possible culprits didn't set off any light bulbs or give me an "AHA!" moment doesn't mean I specifically set out to dismiss your ideas just because they were _your_ ideas..

I promise, I didn't..

It's just that I've gone over this a million times in my own head..  Everything you suggested, I'd already considered at some point, and not because I think I "know it all" either...indeed, I feel like a real failure right now.   I considered those things among many, many others simply because I'm absolutely heartsick over the whole situation and I _can't help_ but think about it from every angle I can imagine..  I can't help but think of every possible thing I could have done better or differently to have saved this doe, and wonder if it would have worked for her, or would work for someone else in the unfortunate event that this thing rears its nasty head again..

Maybe you're wondering why I'd even post if I had already considered things and come to certain conclusions about what happened.....

Well, it's because I wanted to talk.  I'm human, and I'm hurting and sad, and I just wanted to tell the story.

Sometimes people just do that, kimmy..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 6, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> Yes, it does suck when you work so hard to solve the puzzle and save their lives and it's still not enough.    Sometimes, no matter what we do, we lose them.  And that's the really, really tough part.  My heart hurts for you and your family over your loss.


Thank you.


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## Roll farms (Oct 6, 2009)

I'm so sorry about the doe.  
Been there, blamed myself, and spent many a long night in a cold barn w/a doe's head in my lap...I totally understand how useless and helpless it can make you feel.
Find comfort in the fact that you did all you could, based on what you knew....You didn't fail that doe in any way.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 7, 2009)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'm so sorry about the doe.
> Been there, blamed myself, and spent many a long night in a cold barn w/a doe's head in my lap...I totally understand how useless and helpless it can make you feel.
> Find comfort in the fact that you did all you could, based on what you knew....You didn't fail that doe in any way.


Thanks..  I hope neither of us will ever have to do that ever again.


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## kimmyh (Oct 7, 2009)

I asked questions, you had no way to know where I was going with my questions. But, apparently you took offense-how sad. Any feed can have salmonella, no matter the mfg company, ANY company can have that problem. The two goats that died could have died from separate issues, there is no way too tell without a necropsy, that is where I was headed, looking for individual issues, but again, I was confused. I should have just said, sometimes it is not meant too be, that is clearly what you wanted, no help, just sympathy.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 7, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> I asked questions, you had no way to know where I was going with my questions. But, apparently you took offense-how sad. Any feed can have salmonella, no matter the mfg company, ANY company can have that problem. The two goats that died could have died from separate issues, there is no way too tell without a necropsy, that is where I was headed, looking for individual issues, but again, I was confused. I should have just said, sometimes it is not meant too be, that is clearly what you wanted, no help, just sympathy.


It's true that had I been looking for help identifying the disease, I'd probably have posted it under "Diseases," titled it as a question, and asked for suggestions.  So you're right in your conclusion that I wasn't looking for help with the disease part of the dilemma.

I wasn't simply fishing for sympathy, however..  To suggest I was after sympathy alone is to suggest pure narcissism to have been my motive in starting the thread.  That's just not the case, though, because run of the mill sympathy wouldn't have made me feel any less _guilty_ and, at the end of the day, I started the thread to maybe help me feel less guilty.  I guess I wanted to explain to people what had happened and what I'd done to try and fix it in the hopes that other people would come along and validate that I'd done everything within my power to save her.

Is that a wrong thing to do?  Maybe.  I dunno.  It didn't feel wrong before I broke it down and analyzed it...felt kinda like a normal thing for a hurt person to feel compelled to do...but, yeah, I guess it seems kinda selfish now that I break it down.  

So, if you need to call it something -- to call _me_ something -- call me selfish.  I think it's probably more accurate than trying to label me a narcissist, at least.

And if you really want to hurt me (which is what I kinda think you're shooting for at this point) then you should probably tell me that I should have done more and that it really _is_ my fault that my doe's dead.  I'm not completely convinced that it's not yet, so there's still a golden opportunity for you to water that seed of doubt and really get it growing within my heart.

Just a suggestion.

Oh, one more thing..  As far as doing a necropsy on the second sick goat, I'd have to shoot him first, so I think I'll decline.  

In case you missed it from the very first post, he came back around after a second round of a _different_ antibiotic drench, which is what solidified -- in my mind, and my vet's mind -- that we had indeed been dealing with a bacterial gut infection....which is, in large part, why I didn't ask for any opinions or suggestions to help me identify the disease itself.

In your defense, though...it _was_ a really long first post and a lot of that became a bit more clear toward the bottom....  :/


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## kimmyh (Oct 7, 2009)

I have not, and continue to not try to label you or this thread. I have taken the high road and repeatedly said I SHOULD have figured out where you were coming from. 

As to the part about he got better, yes I read that part, and indeed that is where my comment about treating with DiMethox for a single treatment came from. It was not an accusation, it was a warning to all who might read this thread, because treating with a sulfa drug/antibiotic when not used properly can lead to more resistant bacteria. Clearly, your goat did not live long enough for that to be an issue in this case.

All of this conversation between the two of us will not help your grieving, or other feelings. It is, I believe a diversion-a way for you to lash out at someone, whoever that might be. It is unfortunate for me, as I was coming from a place of compassion in the beginning, I am now in a place of frustration. I'll get over it, but further back on forth on both of our parts seems childish, and I'm done.


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## lilhill (Oct 7, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> kimmyh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, I wasn't going to wade into this ... going to keep my dog on the porch ... but I can't help but wonder why somebody would insist on kicking another person when they are already down.  It seems to me that Kimmy had rather be "right" than supportive of another member who has, and still is, going through a nightmarish situation with the loss of a beloved animal and wanted to share his grief.  Now, that's what is so sad.  I, too, posed a question ... about entero, but never felt it was an affront to me personally that you had already considered that.  I was quite happy that you had.  Hmmm, wonder what the difference was?


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## kimmyh (Oct 7, 2009)

Sandie, go back and look at all of the quote, and assumptions that were directed at me. How would you react? Many of those assumptions were WAY off track. But as I have said, I was at fault for NOT realizing this thread was not about looking for a cause for the death of the goats. My bad.


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## lilhill (Oct 7, 2009)

I can understand where he's coming from and maybe that's the difference.  Have you ever worked so _very_ hard to keep a special pet alive and it not turn out the way you had "planned"?  I have.  A baby goat that had seizures ... and the Vet and I worked for 6 months to keep her going.  

She did have good days and then there was a seizure, but she'd bounce back.  My Vet said maybe she'd outgrow it and I hung my hat on that!  Polio, Listerosis, everything was considered.  Sometimes I'd be with her when the seizure hit and could hold her until it passed.  Sometimes I'd find her crawled up under something and knew that she had had another one.  

Everything that people suggested we look for, we'd already done and it didn't work.  Six months!  Then the day came when my little girl just couldn't take the toll the more frequent seizures were making on her body and she let me know in her own special way that the time had come to let her go.  She had just given up and couldn't bounce back any more.

I was very angry, mostly at myself that I couldn't help her, but sometimes it was inadvertently directed at others.  It sounds a whole lot worse in print than it would have if you'd been face to face with someone.  I didn't mean to be snippy or hateful to anyone.  I was just in a lot of pain.  We just didn't know what else to do for her and I lost her.  

Please understand that nothing was directed at you personally.  Sometimes we get so desperate just to try to reconcile the fact that maybe we didn't do enough.  Or, maybe we did everything we could possibly do and it wasn't meant to be.  The last thing we want to do when it comes to something we dearly love is to admit we couldn't help them when they needed us the most.  It takes a long, long time to forgive ourselves and realize we did the best we knew to do. 

And we just need to get it out.  We just need to vent.  Anything it takes to get it out of our system and be able to start the healing process.  And the least we could do here on this forum is to support and encourage and, most of all, to let them know that we really do care that they are heart hurting.


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## jlbpooh (Oct 7, 2009)

Very well put lilhill. You can "hear" the grief in cmjust0's posts. I know he was not trying to be mean to anyone, he may have misunderstood the intentions of others. It is hard to completely understand written dialogue at times because you are missing the visual and verbal cues that go along with it.  I myself had gotten the feeling that he was thinking out loud and analyzing his actions/treatment. I also know what it is like to lose a special pet and the grief that ensues afterwards. After my pet died, there were plenty of what if's, or if only I would have's. I have learned a lot from this forum even though I am not a very active participant. I read pretty much every post since I am still learning. Let's just all kiss and make up and continue to provide the wonderful information that all of us newbies are craving. Cmjust0, my sympathies to losing your little girl though. Please continue to update on the wether.


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## goat lady (Oct 7, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your loss. We lost an 11 week old doe last Wed. night.  It is hard. I was a mess that morning that I found her. She was my daughter's and I had to call my daughter at college and tell her about her baby girl.  It is sad to fall in love with a pet and then loose that pet. So I do feel for your loss.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Another one started downhill last night..  Squatted to pee, made two streams.  Doe, 19mos, full sister to the one who died.

Full post in "Diseases," and since this one's still alive and has a shot, I'm definitely open to suggestions -- from everyone.


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## freemotion (Oct 8, 2009)

Wow, C, just caught up with this thread....made me cry for you and your wife and your doe, especially the part about burying her.  We bury all our animals ourselves, and I feel it is an important part of the grieving process, for me, anyways.  I get it... 

I don't get the attacks.  I expected them, but I don't get them.  Sheesh.  

It is obvious to me that you are doing all you can, utilizing your vet, and I suspect that the doe's death was probably not preventable.  Antibiotics make us feel that all illness should be curable, but it simply is not.  Ask any expert on the subject....they are very, very nervous about the fact that antibiotics are becoming less and less effective.  So try not to beat yourself up too much (I know you are and will, but.... :/ ) because there simply is no way of knowing if another course of action would've made a difference.  The wether's immune system may be stronger than the doe's was.  His innate ability to thrive may be genetically determined.  You did your best, and she had a wonderful (although far too short) life with your family.

Well, I would be going through the same thought processes and beating myself up, too....so here's another


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2009)

What about full bloodwork including checking selenium and copper levels and anything else they can check for with bloodwork. Also a fecal including things like giardia and crypto. How about Lepto? One other thing to check for is Emac (Eimeria macusaniensis). It is a super coccidia that they are finding in alpacas. The drug of choice to treat Emac is Marquis. Emac can only be detected in a longer run fecal test. The state lab does them here.

 It is so tough when they can't tell you what is wrong. You probably already thought of these but it is all I can think of. I have to admit I'm one to call the vet pretty quickly.

I am so sorry you are continuing to have problems.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, I would recommend getting one that is ill tested for johne's.
I know you are testing for other bacteria's, so I would throw this in just to be sure you are not dealing with it.


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## Griffin's Ark (Oct 10, 2009)

Hmmmm... If it is Entero you would know by the smell!  And you would have commented about it in your post.  The symptoms you did quote here though do point to a possible poisoning though.  Check your pastures for Jimson weed if you haven't already.  Scours, drunkeness, anorexia... Google Jimson and check the goats syptoms agaist what you find.  I lost a doe about a month ago and the next day I fenced off an area of the pasture that I suspected.  All problems cleared up.  That left me with spraying Round-up and then reseeding.

I am also wondering if the vet gave you any info on the fecals yet?

Chris


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

There was a smell..  Almost like a parvo dog, but not nearly as overwhelming..  Definitely foul, though.

We have a lot of jimson around the farm, but very little of it in the pastures.  It seems to be an opportunist, popping up in the plowed gardens and whatnot.  We pull it whenever we see it in their grazing areas, which is really infrequent.  Can't actually remember the last time I pulled any jimson from their grazing area..

Nothing back on the fecals yet..  I turned them in Thursday morning, so it's been 4 days..  (I count the weekend, as bacteria don't generally take much time off work.)

I'll be calling today to see what's happened..


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## my2monsterboys (Oct 16, 2009)

I am so sorry for your loss.  Insignificant words, there really isn't more to say.  You are to be commended for all that you tried.
May she rest in peace and may you heal soon.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2009)

thanks


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