# horrible at gentics...bunny color potential help? (mini rex)



## PinkFox (Jan 15, 2012)

have a friend ith a trio of mini rex, a "grey" (he looks blue to me, too solid "grey" to be a chin and too dark to be a lilac and no undertone for an opal)
and she has 2 very pretty but heavily marked Tri girls (they look more like harls but are broken, there not as distinct on the markings as ive seen most Tris but they are beautifully coated and lovely body structure) (they are non dilute tries)

if she bred the blue (assuming blue) to the Tri's  what kind of colors could she expect?

ive been trying to figure it out but punnet squares make my head go boom.


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## Ms. Research (Jan 15, 2012)

> ive been trying to figure it out but punnet squares make my head go boom.


lol, just started learning about color genetics.  Not even close to knowing but I'll give it my best college try.  


*TRI-COLOR - consists of white in conjunction with one of the following combination of two colors: Black and Orange; Lilac and Fawn; Chocolate and Orange; or Blue with Fawn.*


So if you are saying the Mini Rex is blue, which is diluted color of black.   Tri-Color does, are they more black and orange, blue with fawn?  If so you will have more bunnies in the black family line (black, blue, orange, fawn).   

If your Tri's are in the chocolate family (chocolate, lilac) the black family colors will overrule.  Black being Dominate than Chocolate (yellow).  


But again, with color genetics I'm finding out you are trying to get the colors.  What comes out in the nest box, well, that's like trying to predict when a goat will have their kids. lol

Hope this is of some help.  Would love to hear others who are more in the know of genetics.

K


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## PinkFox (Jan 15, 2012)

yup they are "normal" tris (white, orange black, though one is lightly marked on the black that it looks more like brindling than a tris normal "spots" lol.)

i was thinking the blue would likley dilute at least some out, but wasnt sure if shed get any blue tris or normal tris out of the pairing.

i knwo what you mean about predicting though, i think rabbits just make it up as they go along lol  you can get an idea of what kinds of thigns to expect, but theres always at least one in ther ethat your think...where did THIS come from LOL


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## Ms. Research (Jan 15, 2012)

PinkFox said:
			
		

> yup they are "normal" tris (white, orange black, though one is lightly marked on the black that it looks more like brindling than a tris normal "spots" lol.)
> 
> i was thinking the blue would likley dilute at least some out, but wasnt sure if shed get any blue tris or normal tris out of the pairing.
> 
> i knwo what you mean about predicting though, i think rabbits just make it up as they go along lol  you can get an idea of what kinds of thigns to expect, but theres always at least one in ther ethat your think...where did THIS come from LOL


The one that is more like brindling could be a Tort.  Tortiseshell have like a brindling affect.  They call it smutty. lol.  

And using that blue, with the surprise in every nest box, you could get a blue tri.    If the B gene is Bb, and the other is bb.   You could get a bb which would be a Blue tri.

Let us know if she does the blue with the tri's.  Would love to see what she gets.  And if I'm even in the ballpark with my predictions. lol.

K


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## Bunnylady (Jan 15, 2012)

Tricolors are harlequins with the broken pattern, so it isn't surprising that they look that way! Most of the Mini Rex harlies that I've had have larger patches of color, while the Tri's generally have spots of orange and black that run about the size of my fingerprints. Brindling (areas with a mixture of the orange and black hairs) is a very common and annoying fault in harlies; one that we constantly try to breed away from.  A proper tricolor is  agouti-based. A self-based tri is more like a (broken) tort with harlequin markings overlaid on it; any spots of color on the nose, ears, and sides (areas that are dark on torts) would be smutty rather than clearly orange and/or black.  

a Punnet square for this cross would be really big and awkward. The "alphabet soup" (as one of my friends calls it) looks like this:

Black Tricolor: A_B_C_D_ej_Enen

Blue: aaB_C_ddE_enen

Eyes rolling back in your head yet? 

Basically, any place there is a _ up there ^ means that we don't know (just by looking at the rabbit) whether there may be a hidden recessive gene in that place. The rabbit is expressing a dominant gene there; without more information (parents' colors, maybe colors of previous offspring) you can't be sure what may be lurking unseen. I could write an extremely long post about what all that means; you might even understand it when I got through (it really isn't that bad when you take it one step at a time), but you don't really want me to go there, do you?! 

Assuming that the buck is a blue, and the tri's are "good" tri's, the most likely result of this cross would be chestnuts and broken chestnuts.  If the tri's are deep red, "castor" might be the proper term rather than "chestnut". The buck is expressing the self pattern (aa); the does should be expressing the agouti pattern gene (A). If the does are carrying the self gene (a), you could get blacks and broken blacks, too.

 None of these animals are expressing the recessive chocolate gene (b); if the buck and a doe are carrying it, you might see chocolate babies (not the likeliest outcome, but I can't rule it out from what you've given us).

 All of these animals are expressing the full color (C) in the C-series, there are several recessives that could be hiding here to really make you scratch your head (where the heck did _that_ come from?!). Chinchilla, Siamese-type shaded patterns, even REW could be hiding here. 

The buck is expressing the recessive dilute blue (dd); the does are expressing the full color black (D). If the does are carrying a dilution gene (d), you could get blue or opal babies, in broken or solid.

 Harlequin is recessive to normal full color in the E series, the only gene recessive to harlequin is the one that gives you tort/red/orange (e). Unless the buck is carrying (but not expressing - he's expressing the full color E) either harlequin (ej) or tort (e), you won't see either harlies or tri's. If the buck is carrying tort (e), and the doe is also carrying the recessive (e), you might get tort or orange. 

En is the broken gene, which is dominant.  The does have it, the buck doesn't; so you can get both broken and solid colored variations of all of the possible colors.

But even if you _know_ that all the right genes are there, whatever color you  most want to see, it will be the last one you get. They love to drive us crazy that way!


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## Ms. Research (Jan 15, 2012)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Tricolors are harlequins with the broken pattern, so it isn't surprising that they look that way! Most of the Mini Rex harlies that I've had have larger patches of color, while the Tri's generally have spots of orange and black that run about the size of my fingerprints. Brindling (areas with a mixture of the orange and black hairs) is a very common and annoying fault in harlies; one that we constantly try to breed away from.  A proper tricolor is  agouti-based. A self-based tri is more like a (broken) tort with harlequin markings overlaid on it; any spots of color on the nose, ears, and sides (areas that are dark on torts) would be smutty rather than clearly orange and/or black.
> 
> a Punnet square for this cross would be really big and awkward. The "alphabet soup" (as one of my friends calls it) looks like this:
> 
> ...


Thanks Bunnylady for the explanation.  Same question came up on the Lionhead thread.  Kind of getting the idea of genetics.  But know in real life, you never really know until you look into the box.  

K


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## PinkFox (Jan 20, 2012)

thanks, makes a little more sense to me now...
i mean the generla rules make sense but alphabet soup is definatly a good term for it, the letters (like algebra) just get all jumbled. lol

even better, i just picked up my own mumbled trio lol. a friend moving offered me his last 3 babies...
buck is an opal (no relation to the other 2)
and the does, 1 is a heavy blanketed tri and the other is a charlie tri (black eye rings, "red" spots on her cheeks and above here eyes, 3 little red and black spots neer her tushy and red and black spotting on the very edges of her ears)

im guesing id get mostly broken castor/chestnuts if i bred the opal buck to the tri girls...

(im going to be looking for a tri or harl buck and some opal does to "color match" lol. but untill then.
there Babbits right now though, just about 9 weeks old so ive got plenty of time to play wiht that one LOL!


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## Bunnylady (Jan 20, 2012)

Just a little word of warning about harlequin. While it is recessive to the full color (E), it can "bleed through" somehow. I have had this happen a few times. What you wind up with is a rabbit that looks like a regular castor/opal, but with darker streaks or patches. It is particularly noticeable on the belly (it's also a DQ).


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Jan 20, 2012)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Just a little word of warning about harlequin. While it is recessive to the full color (E), it can "bleed through" somehow. I have had this happen a few times. What you wind up with is a rabbit that looks like a regular castor/opal, but with darker streaks or patches. It is particularly noticeable on the belly (it's also a DQ).


Yup, but this only happens with agoutis (castors, opals, etc) and tans (otters, martins). The brindling gene (ej) messes up the stomach color and ear lacing. It will also give agoutis a smutty sort of look. You can't show these animals, but if you're breeding for tri-colors, varieties like the castor are great for improving type. 
Selfs, on the other hand, can hide the ej gene like no other lol. There is absolutely no way to tell if it carries it or not without knowledge of the animals background and test breeding. Breeding tris and selfs (which is ok) will get you torted tris, which aren't showable but you can still use them. 
I've never seen a tort show the effects of the ej gene...I don't doubt that it does, but I'm wondering if maybe it's a gene that affects the distribution of color (i.e. very little black/choc/blue/lilac on a tri). That, paired with torting, could very well make a tri look like a tort with brindling. Just a thought. 
As far as getting blue/fawn tris...it's a possibility. Is there any dilute in the does backgrounds? I have a doe that has almost entirely black/orange ancestors and 1 blue/fawn waaaay back there and she carries dilute and chocolate. So who knows!! LOL!! Rabbits are surprising animals. I do think it's more likely that the first set of litters will be castors/opals. You might get reds, depending, and maaaybe tris. Once you breed back a buck to a doe (son to mother, be not afraid of linebreeding!), you should get tris and start learning a little bit more about your lines. 
Have fun, good luck, and keep us updated! 

Edit: I'm pretty sure the tort wouldn't show any effects of the ej gene at all considering a tort is double non-extension. There'd be no ej gene to show through. I'd chalk up the problem with the tort to a.) smuttiness, which can probably be attributed to smutty ancestors, or b.) a torted tri/harlequin with poor color distribution.


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## PinkFox (Jan 21, 2012)

thanks 
bunny colors are definatly crazy LOL!


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## zzGypsy (Feb 15, 2012)

crazyturkeydesigns said:
			
		

> Bunnylady said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok, so I'm going to jump in on this thread, because some of this sounds like what I've got... y'all feel free to tell me to start a new thread if I'm not close.
first the disclaimer ... I'm reeeealy new to rabbits and even newer to rabbit color genetics.
what I'm wondering about is two of my does...

the first is maybe? tricolor? she's white with colored patches, the colored patches are dark brindle, heavy on the "dark".  all the color patches are brindled, no solid color except the white.  is this what you were talking about? 

the other doe is black, but in certain light you can see she's got some brindled areas, very near black in color, and not distributed evenly - mostly they're on her sides and flanks, not over the top, which is solid black.  the brindle is so dark that at first I wasn't sure it wasn't just a trick of the light and the shine from her fur, but no, it's brindled.  what would be the gene pattern for this? 

thanks for teach us so patiently!


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Feb 15, 2012)

Here's an example of a properly marked tri mini rex: Briallu Mini Rex Tri 
The broken doe could be a tri, a castor, or a tort. It's hard to tell without a picture though. Castors can have that brindle appearance for any number of reasons...do you happen to have pedigrees or know anything about their background? 
The black doe is probably just that...was she kept outside at all? Sometimes rabbits will get "sunburn" and patches of fur will look sort of brown. She could also just be molting. 
Hope that helped a little! It's hard without a picture lol


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## yannimom (Feb 15, 2012)

Hi, I have a harli buck that is out of the same sire and dam as that tri and he is awesome!  Best type on a harli I have ever seen!  He throws only harli and REW so far and his REW kits do really well on the show table!  And his harli kits are very pretty.  I am careful who I put him to, though, because that harli genetics can make things get even crazier


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