# Let's Talk About Corid and Cocci.



## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

I read about Corid and Cocci and I always have nothing but questions so I would love to tap into the minds of the many BYH members and sort this out. Personally my vet tells me that Corid is safe and I know producers that use it as a preventative and as a treatment. 

Many times Corid is the go to med for treating Cocci, it is readily available and it works.  When a poster states that they are using Corid it is often stated that Corid is a Thiamine inhibitor and that it shouldn't be used in goats, but if it is used Thiamine should be given during treatment.

This is what I know, or think I know. 

Thiamine is produced by the rumen of a healthy goat.  
Cocci needs Thiamine to survive
Corid imitates Thiamine and the Cocci ingest the imitation Thiamine and die.

So why is Thiamine production suppressed when Corid is administered? Does it "trick" the body into thinking it doesn't need to produce thiamine? Is it produced on as needed basis? 

 I would like to hear what your understanding is of how Corid works and whether or not Thiamine is important to give during Corid usage or does the administration of Thiamine negate the Corid?


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## NH homesteader (Sep 30, 2016)

I have no idea...  I have not had to use it (yet)  but I'm curious to hear what others think.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

I have never used CoRid (I use DiMethox), but I have heard from multiple places and people I have met that CoRid is innefective and some places that it works well.

This is the first time I have heard that some people think you shouldn't give thiamine supplementation. I think if I had to use CoRid, I would be too scared not to. I guess I'd rather have a possible longer cocci treatment than risking goat polio.

I am really hoping DiMethox, Sulmet, and Baycox will become available at local feed stores, but I know on the Tennessee Meat Goat site, she was saying it will soon stop being over the counter.


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## greybeard (Sep 30, 2016)

Is Corid® labeled (and FDA approved) for goats?


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

The VFD  is the reason why some of this stuff will be unavailable at the feed stores etc.  I find Corid is mostly effective for chickens and calves.  They say that most subspecies of cocci are breed specific, yet there have been other cases where they have been found in the different ones.  I think that the sulfa's will be more effective than amprolium (corid) for goats but look up a couple of the goat sites and see what they are saying.  Don't have alot of experience with goats, but we had coccidiosis in calves in the shed where we raised the turkeys the year before.  Never had any problem with the calves until I had the turkeys there; now I just figure the calves will probably get it and watch for it and treat it right away.  Species specific?????


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> Species specific?????


Yes, it is species specific.


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## greybeard (Sep 30, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I have never used CoRid (I use DiMethox), but I have heard from multiple places and people I have met that CoRid is innefective and some places that it works well.
> 
> This is the first time I have heard that some people think you shouldn't give thiamine supplementation. I think if I had to use CoRid, I would be too scared not to. I guess I'd rather have a possible longer cocci treatment than risking goat polio.



I would think, that if you supplement the use of Amprolium alongside Thiamine, you may as well not use the Corid. Amprolium works, because the protozoan needs thiamen to grow and reproduce, and it is the amproleum's ability to inhibit thiamen transport  that makes the amproleum work and kill the 1st stage of the protozoa..

Thiamen is produced naturally on a daily basis from the digestion of plant materials and thru bacterial action in the gut.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 30, 2016)

greybeard said:


> Is Corid® labeled (and FDA approved) for goats?



Corid like almost every other "drug" for goats is OFF LABEL and therefore must only be used under the supervision of a veterinarian.
Sadly there is little to no research on goats in the US.

One reason I am very adamant about finding a reliable vet and building relationship. 

The amprolium is a thiamine antagonist.

Quote from medicine net.
_Antagonist: A substance that acts against and blocks an action. Antagonist is the opposite of agonist. Antagonists and agonists are key players in the chemistry of the human body and in pharmacology_.

The insert from Bio-vet-
PHARMACOLOGICAL ACTION Amprolium, the active substance of Amprol® 9,6 % Oral Solution is a thiamine antagonist. The anticoccidial effect of Amprolium is achieved by inhibiting the Eimeria spp. to uptake thiamine. The thiamine requirement for Eimeria spp. is, compared to animals, relative high and therefore *Amproleum will cause starvation of the parasite because of thiamine deficiency.* As this way is unique, Amprolium does not show cross-resistance with other anticoccidial preparations.

In many articles I came across it says that Thiamine may need to be given *if overdose.*
_Long-term administration of amprolium in high doses may result in thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency in the host.* To treat amprolium overdose,* thiamine should be administered parenterally or orally._

To my understanding IF you are giving thiamine at the same time as the amprolium you are defeating the purpose. Because you are no longer starving the parasite but feeding it.

Perhaps this drug is best as a preventative and not when an animal is already in critical condition.


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## greybeard (Sep 30, 2016)

/\
My understanding as well.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

The administration of thiamine has just not made sense to me, there was this nagging part of my brain that said it was counterproductive. 
I think that the "administer thiamine" song has just been repeated so much that it is now fact and it isn't doing anyone any good to repeat it. 

But is Corid getting a bad rap?

This is from the Corid sales information. 

_How CORID works
 Structurally, CORID mimics thiamin (Vitamin B1) which is required by coccidia for normal growth and reproduction. When coccidia ingest CORID, they experience thiamin deficiency and starve from malnutrition. 
_
Ok, I understand that. But does an animal produce thiamine as needed?  Is that why it can cause Polioencephalomalacia (PEM)? Why doesn't it do the same to cattle? They produce thiamine the same way and I know that they are susceptible to PEM.

This is from the Merck Manual 

_Historically, PEM has been associated with altered thiamine status, but more recently an association with high sulfur intake has been seen....Overall, there is not a linear relation among the presence of ruminal and fecal thiaminase, decreased concentrations of tissue and blood thiamine, and development of disease.
_
According to the University of Alabama 
_Thiaminase can also be caused by PROLONGED administration of Corid (Amprolium), the administration of de-wormers, grazing in newly fertilized pastures, and increased sulfur intake._


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> The VFD is the reason why some of this stuff will be unavailable at the feed stores etc.



The VFD will only impact antibiotic laced feed; antibiotic availability alone should not change...unless you live in California. But that doesn't mean it isn't coming to a state near you soon.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 30, 2016)

Now it is getting more confusing. 

It says it is an antagonist but what you just posted from their info says...How CORID works
_Structurally,* CORID mimics thiamin *(Vitamin B1) which is required by coccidia for normal growth and reproduction. When coccidia ingest CORID, they experience thiamin deficiency and starve from malnutrition._

That better fits agonist-
Agonist:* A substance that acts like another substance *and therefore stimulates an action. Agonist is the opposite of antagonist. Antagonists and agonists are key players in the chemistry of the human body and in pharmacology.

gosh... maybe I need to go back and take some refresher courses


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

VFD will impact any antibiotic that can be added to feed  OR minerals and as you said  @babsbag, look at california.  It  CAN also impact any antibiotic that is or can be added to water delivery or milk replacers.  All medicated milk replacer will fall under that umbrella according to the last vet presented meeting I went to. It is all according to the category that the "additive" falls under, as they say corid will not be affected.....yet.   The vets in this state are absolutely having a fit over the added paperwork it will create as well as the responsibility of it only being allowed for a "certain" group at a certain place etc.  All in the name of making antibiotics for people more effective if they are not fed as matter of course to animals......Once they have their foot in the door, IE : CALIFORNIA, it is only going to get worse.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

CA loves being the forerunner on all things stupid. Thankfully I have a good and reasonable vet and I'm not far from OR and I have a sister in OR. I keep 3 antibiotics on hand...Pen, Tylan, and oxcytet, with oxcy being the one I use most often, usually kids with respiratory. With a goat by the time I find a vet and those meds on a weekend or 2 in the morning the animal will be dead. I have never added antibiotics or even wormers to feed but I am planning on feeding feed with Rumensin to kids next year and possibly to dry does depending on withdrawal times.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

@Southern by choice  Your the science buff, not me so figure this out, ok? 

 So if it mimics thiamine does that stop the animal from producing thiamine as the body says "I don't need thiamine, I have enough"? Also, how much thiamine does the cocci ingest? If the animal is given thiamine at the same time as the Corid will the cocci ingest both and it won't work or will it ingest both and it will work, just work more slowly?   I have been trying to wrap my brain around this for a few years.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 30, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @Southern by choice  Your the science buff, not me so figure this out, ok?
> 
> So if it mimics thiamine does that stop the animal from producing thiamine as the body says "I don't need thiamine, I have enough"? Also, how much thiamine does the cocci ingest? If the animal is given thiamine at the same time as the Corid will the cocci ingest both and it won't work or will it ingest both and it will work, just work more slowly?   I have been trying to wrap my brain around this for a few years.



Well... I put out a few calls. Of course I am not looking for the simple answer. I want to know exactly how and what it does. LOL More clinical understanding because now I am really curious.
Thanks babs  

I just want you to know I was running along peacefully and minding my own business and not giving this a care in the world... til you! 
grrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## greybeard (Sep 30, 2016)

> So if it mimics thiamine does that stop the animal from producing thiamine as the body says "I don't need thiamine, I have enough"? Also, how much thiamine does the cocci ingest? If the animal is given thiamine at the same time as the Corid will the cocci ingest both and it won't work or will it ingest both and it will work, just work more slowly?



Babsbag, the animal itself does not 'produce' thiamine. It's in the forage it eats and is part of the breakdown that occurs in the rumen via gut bacteria. Thiamine is normally produced by bacteria in the rumen of cattle and other ruminants such as goats, sheep and deer on well-balanced roughage diets.

The cocci doesn't 'ingest' the thiamine either--it is absorbed thru the cell wall as in all protozoans and single cell entities.
As I stated earlier, it is the Vit B1  as a thiamine transporter that is affected. The things that are taking place are doing so on an extremely  tiny physical and metabolic level. Remember--we are not talking about a physically large parasite--we are working against a single cell protozoa n in the case of cocci.
The thiamine transport (B1) is identified as a chemical compound--these are formed on the molecular level. (B1 and thiamine are generically referred to as one and the same as they are inseparable except on the molecular scale)
A vitamen is just a term given to any organic compound the body (any body) cannot make on it's own.

Before we proceed, lets look at how closely the thiamine and amprolium resemble each other:





To answer your question.......
The presence of thiamine continues virtually unabated in the digestive system of the animal (humans included) even if corid is introduced, as long as the same forage or food intake remains the same as before the introduction of Corid.
There is an action, in the capillary system that semi-selectively 'filters' out certain things--it's called the blood brain barrier.  The walls of the tiniest parts of the capillary system are only 1 cell thick. Altho it is called the blood brain barrier, the filtered out substances are also kept from the rest of the body as well, since the blood system is mostly all tied together.

Thaimine is needed in the brain, so thiamine gets a pass. Many other things do as well, and some things are more readily passed than others--allowed in greater numbers/volume. Amprolium is one of the things that the barrier has a great affinity for--it goes right on thru. Scientists don't fully understand why or how but they do know it happens with greater ease than with other substances. (Alchohol is one substance that the barrier seem to hardly even acknowlege is there--goes zippin right on thru) Things that are stopped, are expelled via the usual route--kidneys.
That's not to say that thimine is stopped--it is not. But there is a ratio. The more corrid that is present, the more is passed thru the filter, the less thiamen is passed, tho some thiamine always is passed. Since thiamine and amprolem are so close chemical wise, the cocci protozoa absorbs way more of it than it does thiamine. Chemical similarities are there, but they are still 2 completely different things, and the protozoa cannot grow and divide without enough real thiamine.

Can the levels of thiamine be increased by giving supplemental B1 even if Amprolium has been administered? Yes, but that would negate the effectiveness of the Corid. But this is why there are limitations to how much Corid is to be administered. We are not to give so much that there is no thiamine passed thru the blood brain barriers in the capillary system.

_The inhibitory effect of amprolium upon thiamine flux across the barrier could be overcome if the concentration of thiamine in the blood plasma was also raised sufficiently (by injecting [14C]thiamine of suitably low specific activity). Thus in the presence of 6 /tM of amprolium the influx of thiamine into the brain was reduced to some 30 % of the normal (Fig. 3). In two further experiments, in which this inhibitory level of amprolium was present, when the concentration of free thiamine in the blood plasma was also raised about four times from approximately 1 to 3-1 or 4-5 /SM, the influx was doubled, reaching approximately 60 % of the normal value.



 

_


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## greybeard (Sep 30, 2016)

Forgot to add, the one celled protozoan at issue also has an affinity for Corid (amprolium). 
Even tho there always are some values of 'real' thiamine present, the 'bug' prefers the chemical analogue.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

So can I simply say that if the animal is still eating their normal feed and the dosage is correct the administration of Corid should not be an issue? Many times goats with cocci will go off feed, maybe that it part of the problem. Also that my "gut feeling" that giving Thiamine as the same time as Corid was counterproductive is also correct; now I understand why.  But Corid is a thiamine inhibitor of sorts, but only is it is used in excess.  

Thanks for the explanation, it actually makes sense.


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## casportpony (Dec 17, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> VFD will impact any antibiotic that can be added to feed  OR minerals and as you said  @babsbag, look at california.  It  CAN also impact any antibiotic that is or can be added to water delivery or milk replacers.  All medicated milk replacer will fall under that umbrella according to the last vet presented meeting I went to. It is all according to the category that the "additive" falls under, as they say corid will not be affected.....yet.   The vets in this state are absolutely having a fit over the added paperwork it will create as well as the responsibility of it only being allowed for a "certain" group at a certain place etc.  All in the name of making antibiotics for people more effective if they are not fed as matter of course to animals......Once they have their foot in the door, IE : CALIFORNIA, it is only going to get worse.



In addition to antibiotics that can be added to feed, all water soluble antibiotics will require a prescription. Antibiotics that will not need a VFD or prescription are bacitracin (BMD), tiamulin (Denagard), and a few others, but can't remember what they are.


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## babsbag (Aug 31, 2017)

So remember this thread...the topic popped on FB and someone said to INJECT thiamine during the treatment and it won't make it to the rumen and therefore won't "feed" the cocci but it will give the goat the thiamine it needs ??? 

@greybeard stated that in the last post but if the thiamine is in the blood and the cocci is in the gut how would the cocci get "food" from injected thiamine? Or do I not understand the way cocci feeds?


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2019)

@greybeard   Remember this thread?  I have recently been asked if injected thiamine would interfere with the Corid's ability to work as it isn't in the intestines. Well, I don't know how the coccidia absorb the Corid/thiamine so I have no clue.  Do you think that injected thiamine would interfere with the Corid?


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