# How much milk from ff nubian?



## Moody (Mar 23, 2015)

Nubian freshened march 17. I started milking her to get practice and get her into a routine. 
The first time at 4 days past birth was maybe 6 tbsp full. The next time maybe a 1/3 cup and that's about all I ever get. I do not know if she came from strong milking lines. I figured I would get at least 1/2 gallon a day which along with a lamancha will be plenty for my family. Actually I planned on close to a gallon a day but maybe not as ff. 

I put the baby in the milk stall with us. She runs around. I get momma up on milk stand, put grain and alfalfa pellets into the feeder, clean udder with warm wash cloth (just water right now), dry with paper towel and go to it.  I get some good two handed milking squirts but After a bit she gets antsy and keeps kicking. Also I get 4-5 good squirts of milk but then struggle for a bit to get it going rythmically again. 

She stands with her legs a bit too close together. If I try to correct, she kicks and steps in the bucket. She doesn't eat all the grain. I give as much alfalfa pellets and grain as she will eat but she still gets antsy and won't let me do my thing until we both get frustrated, I let her down, she goes directly to the kid and I put the leftover grain and pellets into a bowl in her and the baby's stall. 

She was doing better each time but last night she absolutely refused to get on the stand, period. Which pissed me off so I tied her to the fence using a rope halter (never had one on her before) and milked her there with no grain. Then tried to hand feed her the grain, gave up, put it into the bowl and into her stall and put them to bed. She was eating it then. 

So I get very little milk because 1) I'm a newb, 2) she's a biatch who is too focused on her kid and 3) I know I'm not milking her out but I can only deal with that dancing/kicking for so long before I cave. 

I have grabbed the kid and put her on the stand as well, I have enticed momma with hand feeding,I have hummed/sang to relax myself, I have bumped udder a bit. I have just approached her where she stands and milked some. I'm getting frustrated with her. I have a hobble but hesitate to use it. I want her experience on the stand to be good but I am getting frustrated. I am nearing the time that I could be trying to drink some as the withdrawal after using valblazen is up. I think her milk is foaming a bit too, what little I get to be able to evaluate that


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## Moody (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh and I realize there is a learning curve for both of us. Is this how your first milking experience has gone? Also how much should I be getting at this point even with a so-so producer at a ff 6 days post birth?


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## animalmom (Mar 23, 2015)

Oh Moody, try to be patient with your new mama goatie.  She is doing her best to try to understand what her body is trying its best to tell her.  You want milk, the baby wants milk and she doesn't know what to do, and frankly thinks that you rate way below the baby.

If you are getting anything off of a FF at this point count your blessings.  She thinks her job is to take care of the baby and all the milk belongs to the baby.  She doesn't want to share.  It is biology.

I raise Nigerian Dwarfs, and therefore can't say about a Nubian, and when I start milking the new moms  (FF) I get a quarter cup, sometimes nothing, sometimes a hoof in the cup for my troubles.

I'd tell you to be patient, but I do honestly understand your frustration.  I've called my girls a few less than desirable names, but don't give up.  Please, don't give up on yourself and definitely not on your doe.  Her priorities are not your priorities. 

You will be amazed, surprised and pleased with her production once the kids are weaned.

Getting her use to your hands on her udder is a big thing.  Getting you use to how her udder feels is a bigger, and important thing.

Hang in there, be patient with yourself.  I'd tell you Rome was not built in a day, but that won't help.  Build her confidence in you is what will help.

Did that make any sense?  Remember at this point you and your doe are talking two different languages.  Keep us posted on your progress, please and thank you.


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## Fullhousefarm (Mar 23, 2015)

Don't beat yourself up!

For the first two weeks I feed on the stand at least once a day and take what I get. It's about getting you used to each other. I don't sell/drink the milk the first two weeks anyway- but do use it for any bottle babies after the first 4-5 days.

At around two weeks I separate babies at night and milk in the morning. If it's 12 hours I'd say at least 4 cups- hopefully closer to 6- good for a first freshener without stopping every last bit and it being an exceptional doe. Production usually peaks at 3 months. I notice a difference depending on how much peanut/alfalfa/etc hay she gets late in the day or at night. When you wean baby you should get about twice as much and I find the does get more patient within a week.


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## Moody (Mar 23, 2015)

Ok. I'm trying to be more patient with her. She refused my stand again tonight but she really wanted the grain and alfalfa pellets. Baby was sleepy after playing so baby got on the stand and slept and momma stayed next to her with a bowl of grain on the ground and me milking that way. Got about 1/2 cup. And it was a less forced experience. 

I was afraid that by giving her bowl of food in her stall of letting her eat wherever so I could milk a bit was establishing a poor routine that would stick that way later on.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 24, 2015)

Hang in there.  She will get better at it and it will be easier.  Gosh, I have had to have my husband hold does and  have even had to tie a rope from the rafter and loop it under a goats hind legs to keep her from sitting on me.  We have had our share of dumped milk and stepped in pails that had to get tossed.  

Play the radio in the background and try to laugh it off when she is driving you nutty.  Soon enough, she will hop up for you, set her own legs, and milk like she has been doing it forever.


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## Moody (Mar 24, 2015)

So, am I supposed to insist she stay and let me milk her out? Or is it ok to just do the best I can without being too forceful with her?


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## upsidedown (Mar 24, 2015)

Have her get on the milk stand regardless of how much milk you are getting...routine/consistency is so important.  I am currently milking a ff oberhasli..I waited for two week to separate at night.  She was antsy when milking the first week (still can be even now).  I milk into a coffee cup so I wouldn't waste what I got.  Now three weeks into milking she is letting down her milk and I am getting a quart of milk off of her. She has a single but lets other kids nurse off her in the morning.  I do not bring the kid into the milking parlor but that is just how I am set up.  Even my 2nd freashener was antsy the first couple of times.  Yes we get impatient but hang in there things will get better


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 24, 2015)

Honestly, I do.  Not sure about others, but my does are going to get up there and be milked out despite the fight.  It is only the first timers that give me any fight and after patient insistence that they be milked, they get over themselves and anxiously await their turn on the stand.


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## MsDeb (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm exactly a month into my first milking experience with a FF mini Nubian.  (She lost her babies at birth and I got her about 3 weeks later from a more experienced milker.)  We literally went round and round at first because it took me two days to get a milking stand.  Now she starts out ok because she wants the feed but she's full before she's milked out and stomps and kicks a lot.  I had to tie off her front leg after the first week because she kept putting it up through the head gate and into the feed box.  Now I'm tying off her back legs also.  I don't have hobbles so I wrap each with a thick sock and then loop a thin dog leash around and tie off at the back of the stand.  This has made things much easier for both of us.  I think she's learning what's expected of her and because it's easier for me and I'm not having to worry about her kicking over the pan, I'm much more calm and can take my time.  I think I won't have to tie off her front leg much longer and I hope she's grow accustomed to keeping back legs still eventually.  Good luck. I was frustrated to tears but everyone here encouraged me to be patient and tough it out and now I can't believe it's only been a month.  I can't say I feel like a pro, but Alice and I are a much better team now than I thought we'd be.  She even let my 10 year old grandson learn to milk her this weekend.  Oh, and I pay her off in black oil sunflower seeds and bread slices and bites of graham cracker snacks.
Hang in there!


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## Sweetened (Mar 24, 2015)

For what it's worth, here's my experience:

I train kickers using a dog leash.  Their back legs go in the handle which is pulled up and over their knees.  I wrap the long part of the leash around the middle, between the legs, at least 3 times to cinch down on the tendons and then tie down the rest of the long part of the leash to something solid and unwaivering.  She can hop, but she can't kick.

I train my girls to stand without grain from the get-go, as we don't grain our does except for reward oats but that doesn't help production.  They're also usually too disgruntled with me at their udder to care about it in the first place. I sit at their middle and face their back end, so their leg stance being wide doesn't really matter and, when they get the hang of the hobble, they'll often flex their hips outwards to give you access.  I milk as much as you can and I NEVER end on a bad note.  Always end with a successful squirt or at least a hold of the udder without any bouncing and flailing.  Once that goes well for a week, I TRY it without the hobble tied to anything.  If there is any acting up, I tie it down.  Do the same the next day, hopefully you'll go longer and longer.  At the end of it, I give oats or BOSS (sometimes, I haven't been with the one doe I'm milking).

I will say, I had an amazingly easy time with Gladys.  We pulled her kids and she stood for me as a FF from the moment I touched her udder.  She gets antsy and wanders, but I give her a good pull and she'll stand again.  I milk her wherever she is in the pen (she's too big for a stand).  She is a FF Toggenburg/Nubain/Saanen cross, (50% Nubian) and I get a liter to a liter and a half out of her once a day.  Again, we DO NOT supplement with milk producing rations or grains.  Her udder is beautiful and I consider pushing her with a ration but I'm trying to keep the soy and canola out of their diet and get the most I can out of grass fed animals.  Her sister, as a FF, would give a gallon every 3 days, but she had lost her kid a week and a half prior to us getting her and had never been touched, so it took a few days for her to fill.

I hope this helps.


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## Moody (Mar 24, 2015)

Thanks for all the suggestions. 
She is getting better with the kicking but she absolutely refuses to get of my stand so I tied her to it with a dog leash and milked her next to it. I was sweaty trying to get her 120 pound self up there. Unless I can lift her completely and I cannot. Then she was pissed at me and refused to eat much. Still only got 1/2 cup or so and had about 10 hairs in it. So the dogs got it.  I get tired of staying hunched there on the ground. One smaller teat is a bit harder to milk. Should I be getting more than 1/2 cup?

So I gave the bowl of feed to her in her stall where she stays with her babe. Just to ensure she is getting enough calories.


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## Sweetened (Mar 24, 2015)

She is probably not letting down for you because of your frustration. My nubian crosses are 200 and 260lbs taped weight respectively, they are simply too big for the stand we have so i tie them to other things

Yes, you SHOULD be able to expect more tha. Half a cup, but i have an oberhasli (who are notorious for being gallon a day ff's) who, as a ff, gave me a cup a milking in her peak and is 2.5 cups a milking as a second freshner, though ive been unable to milk her.

I dont massage them to let down, i hold the teat like im about to milk it and bump up firmly 3 or 4 times each. This is what a kid does. I usually give it 10 seconds or so and then start milking. When you feel like she is empty, you should run your hands from the top of the back of her udder down either half a couple times to pull more milk down and see if you can get more. If you can, do it again until you cant anymore. 

Id stop offering her food and plan to sit with her for 30 minutes. Handle the udder. When she doesnt kick or buck or stomp, offer her a small handfull of something she LOVES (mine are boss, oats or raisins). 

Flora trained in 3 days for me. After 3 weeks, her witch of a sister and i never came to terms and i gave up training her. Never managed to get a squirt of her milk kept because she would fall all over the place, bawl bloody murder, and half kill herself no matter how i restrained her or what i restrained her to. She, while hobbled and tethered with a leash on her collar so she could barely move her head, managed to kick me in the shoulder and end up on her back, hanging herself while flailing her front feet so i had to dodge bullets while trying to get the leash unhooked.

as others have said, she may be like one of my obers and just not a good milker, it happens. She isnt as big as id think she should be, but then so many people have small nubians these days. I look at gladys whos half nubian, 260lbs, and the top of her head is nearly 5ft high. She is massive!


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## babsbag (Mar 24, 2015)

@Sweetened  260 lb goat ?? That is a moose, sorry, not a goat. I have big goats and have milked bigger goats but bet none of them top 200lbs. That IS massive.

My first milking experiences were dreadful. A cup if I was lucky and like most of the rest of you I fought a kicking hopping goat and tried to keep the milk pail upright. I did resort to hobbles and they didn't help much. Unfortunately that goat died before I got her trained but now I have many many others. I have had them balk at the stand, but I do feed grain on the stand, and only on the stand. No stand, no grain...they don't balk for long. I have pulled them up onto the stand far enough to lock their head in and then lifted their hind end up. If they are really dancers I will milk into a hand held container, like a jar or cup, because I can move it out of the way faster and they can't step in it. There has been a few well placed slaps on the flanks too especially on the one that wants to lay on me when I milk. She needs to move over.

Most of them are trained to the grain and if there is grain they will hold still and let me milk. But now I have a milking machine so I win every time.

I agree that she is probably withholding milk from you. I would separate the kid and milk in the morning. I tried bringing kids into the milking room and I think it really made things worse.


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## Moody (Mar 25, 2015)

This morning I went out with the determination not to get frustrated with her and I succeeded. Only got 3/4 cup and I stopped with the bucket at 1/2 cup. Put it aside and danced around trying to get more into the strip cup. The leash I tied her with gives her leeway to move just a bit so I will have to fix that and have either the hobble or another leash to tie her legs cause after about 10 min she is done, but that is when I get into a good rhythm and have good flow. She was interested in eating but stopped before even getting close to eating it all. No more feed outside of the milk area. She ate what I put into her pen after last nights wrestling match. 

I just worry about hypocalcemia or ketosis and the grain being less suddenly since she isn't eating it as heartily. Sometimes she does and sometimes (like this morning) she does not.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 25, 2015)

My FF Nubians usually give a quart at first. Within a few days, most are up to a gallon. I bottle raise the babies. If you milk twice a day you will get more milk.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 25, 2015)

I doubt if you would have to worry about hypocalcemia or ketosis unless she is milking heavily.


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## Sweetened (Mar 25, 2015)

I don't think she's producing enough to spurr on hypocalcemia?  Part of the reason we don't grain is I had a ketosis scare my first go round.

I just thought of something I don't think any of us have asked.  How long are her teats and do you find they take a great amount of strength to squeeze out milk?  I find goats with small teats tedious to milk and a huge reason I won't own ND's (aside from every ND around here is a rotund, ugly, fat faced greyish thing with horns that stick straight up; they look like oompaloompa's, not goats), as as soon as I get the rhythm, that teat slips out of position and I have to start again.  I have a doe, Tootsie, who has great big handles.  I can wrap my hand around them in a fist at the top of the teat and she still has some teat remaining at the bottom of my hand that sticks out -- but she requires GREAT strength to draw down.  Her udder lacks pliability, and I think her orifices are a little smaller than would be ideal.  It's like squeezing thick bread dough out of an icing piping bag.  I have become used to it and have muscular wrists, but I always milk her last when there's a milking rotation going because she's hard on the hands.  

Once you two develop a relationship/understanding, you will become more efficient and proficient at milking.  I was lucky, started milking on a doe I bought trained (Tootsie). I knew what a trained goat should look like.  When I had Millie, she was decent on the milk stand, but stomped constantly, so I learned how to avoid feet and milk differently with her.  Not every goat is built to be a milker, even if they are heavy producing -- I have seen beautiful goats at auctions and spoken with lot owners who have told me: She's here because she isn't trainable.  I made the mistake, once, of brushing them off and buying one.  She was not trainable, not by me at least!

You are doing GREAT!  Progress is PROGRESS and if you can end on a good note with her standing still on the stand, that will go a long way.  I have found, since we've had an incident here, my girls LOVE a good cleansing with hand lotion.  As long as there is no kids on them or they are kept away for a bit while it absorbs, I am happy to oblige.


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## Moody (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm not actually getting her milked out cause she is done early and I just get pissed at dancing around trying to get more. I will fix the dancing around by tying her as you all have suggested at he first sign of moving or kicking. I am milking 2 times a day about 12 hours apart. 

Her teats are small. One is a bit smaller than the other so I try to milk it good. I get the thumb and forefinger around and the middle finger on the smaller one. I get the same and most of ring finger, too on the larger one. I guess baby uses it the most. It doesn't seem to require strength but it does take a few minutes to get it going. I rub down with a warm cloth with a bit of dish soap, then dry her off with a paper towel. Bump  a few times, then use hand sanitizer, strip 5 squirts off each teat, hand sanitizer again and go to it. It then takes a few tries to get a rhythm going, just as I finally get it and go to it for about 4-5 min is when she starts the movement and dancing. That's when I notice there is actually more flow and easier so she must be stopping me right as she is letting down and it is getting easier for me.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 25, 2015)

Teat size should get better during this lactation and on future lactations.


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## Sweetened (Mar 25, 2015)

I read posts like this and blush and my lack of worry about some things. If im milking for bottle babies, i dont clean the udder unless its dirty (rarely). If im milking for us, i strip out the first squirt or two from each teat, wash with dish soap and warm water, dry and go to town. I dont teat dip again or at the end, I dont rewash the udder unless we made a mess with the pail or i managed to milk down my hand and get the teat wet. I coold the milk right away and dont drink it for 24hours.  Im lazy, methinks.

The thing i would worry about with hand sanitizer is it creating a burning sensation in the tip of the teat, making her even more resistant? Im sure many people use it, just a thought. I rarely touch that stuff, and i remember, once, rubbing my eyes a few minutes after using it and gah! The burn!


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## babsbag (Mar 25, 2015)

I agree with @Sweetened about the hand sanitizer, I personally wouldn't use it. I use Dawn dish soap and a dash of bleach to wash the udder, and as a teat tip. I also use it to wipe down my hands. I always wash the udder before  and dip after as I don't want to introduce bacteria into the udder and I don't know how soon those kids will nurse once I return mom to them.

Those sound like some small teats and that has to be frustrating for you. I like to be able to wrap 3 fingers around them, the little ones are just miserable but they should bet a little longer; hopefully.  I also find that there is a direct correlation between feed and milk. Good alfalfa hay and good high protein grain makes milk, take one of those away and no extra milk for me.

Have you tried getting her on the stand and giving her grain while she is there and NOT milking her at that time? Just let her figure out that the stand means grain and not always milking.  All of my goats that are being milked get about 3 qts of grain a day. What are you feeding her on the stand? Is it possible that she just doesn't like it?


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## Moody (Mar 25, 2015)

She eats a non medicated dairy goat pellet as well as alfalfa pellets. I did have alfalfa but since I started the pellets, I haven't bought another bale.

I trained her to the stand when I first got her at 1.5 years old. I can offer her a bit just to get her up there and not milk that time. I can also grab another bale of alfalfa.

Again tonight only 5 min of standing still for me. I had a collar on her and tied her with a leash to the stand with a bowl of food in front of her. She got antsy and moving so I tied her back leg to the stand with another leash. Calmed her, petted her but still got my normal amount. She had too much leeway with her head and was trying to bite my shoulder. Nibbled my shirt then I felt teeth so I tapped her on the nose. I didn't get angry with her and I ended the session after getting a few more squirts. She has more milk than  she will let me have.


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## Moody (Mar 25, 2015)

Also she was hungry tonight since she ate hardly anything this morning. I keep thinking I will go out there and come out on top but I do not 

I will just bring more soapy water for my hands but we have no running water out there which Is why I was using the sanitizer. I also have not been dipping after because the baby nurses and doesn't close off the teats or disinfect them....I intend to do it, just haven't gotten to that part of the routine yet. Also hairs in the milk is bothering me, if she would only stand still for me I could move on to other things, like trimming the udder hair, getting a solid routine for me down, teat dip.

Too frustrated with paying $200 for a goat, $150 for the buck to breed her with, barn, fencing, stand, feed, random supplies and still have no milk in my fridge. 

The milk is good though, what few sips I have had tasted very much like cows milk  not goaty at all. And the cream on my 1/2 cup this morning separated nicely.


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## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

I dont shave my girl (too flippin cold here), and end up with hairs in the milk. I strain it out and dont worry about it. Flecks of other foreign material i judge seperately. One thing i have found that helps is getting a mesh filter that sits over a bowl with a bit of an elastic around it (kind of looks like a hair net but finer mesh holes) from a beer and wine store. Putting that or a linen cloth strapped to your container can prefilter and help keep most things out.

I let my milk sit for 24 hours because its a live organism, really. So if there was an outside contaminant, like a hair or something, the live, good bacteria has a chance to battle off negative bacteria. There are several studies wherein pasteurized and raw milk is innoculated with ecoli and listeria and allowed to sit refridgerated, at room temperature and warmed, and in nearly all cases, after 7 days the counts are significantly down, and in some situations zero, for the negative bacteria in the raw milk.

I can definitely understand your frustration. That one doe whod kill herself on the stand was a $250 purchase i sold at a loss for meat because i couldnt burden another person with her crap! She could HURT someone. I will see about tying up one of my girls today and taking a picture to show my hobble technique, see if itll help you.


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## Moody (Mar 26, 2015)

Thanks so much for all your help!
Interesting about the bacteria. I hadnt read that about the good bacteria killing off bad. I figured the fresher you drank it, the less bad bacteria there would be and of course chilling it quickly. 

I got her on the stand cause biting just cannot happen. I had to put a tighter collar on her and pull her up. 
I petted her and hummed a song. She ate for all of 2 min then stood there pissed looking (if goats can look pissed). I got milk until the stream was no longer easy. Still only 1/2 cup of milk.  she did not eat all I offered, only some. 

I definitely need something to strain it first instead of open bucket. Dogs got this mornings due to black specks. I will check out the straining device you mentioned and I may hobble her. I hate too though since she hates the milking experience already.


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 26, 2015)

I put a nylon strainer that I get at Wally World on top of my milk bucket...keeps almost everything out of the milk to start with.  When I get inside I strain again through a coffee filter and it's good to go!


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## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

Hobbles wont tick her off anymore than she already is, and when/if things go easier with it on itll reinforce good thoughts.


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## Moody (Mar 31, 2015)

Just an update: I literally dragged her onto the stand for 2 days or so. Now she goes up voluntarily to put her head into the head lock but I must lift her rear end up onto the stand. 

But overall she is so much better. I got 1/2 cup yesterday morning and 1 cup last night. So I am getting better too. A couple of days ago I counted the number of squeezes taken to get 1/4-1/2 cup and it was 150-200 but my hands were giving out on me. Now I got that 1 cup in 12 minutes. I'm thinking she may just be a bad milker.


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## Sweetened (Mar 31, 2015)

Shes certainly not a high producer. My nubian x ff gives me a quart a day, only milk once a day and they dont get any supplement, producting is straight off grass/pasture.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 31, 2015)

That is very little for a larger breed dairy.  I get way more than that from our Nigerians.  I have to go back and look here but is she being nursed?

Just looked and she she is.  Are you locking the kid away from her overnight before milking?  If he has access to her before milking, that is the reason you aren't getting much, I'd bet on it.

In a previous post, you mention that there are other kids nursing on her too.  They will drain her of almost all she has, leaving none for you.  Separate her from them overnight, milk her tomorrow morning, and you will see a difference both in her willingness to be milked and the quantity.


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## Moody (Mar 31, 2015)

Her kid is gaining well and she is exactly 2 weeks old today so I can try to separate at night tonight 

But (I know I'm new and assuming a lot) I figured even a ff so-so producer would give 2 cups morning and night even while nursing 24/7. That baby is still young and nibbling hay. So I figured she would be taking about that much, 2-4 cups a day

12 min to get 1 cup milking fairly steadily with both hands pumping means it would take 48 minutes to even get a quart. There's no way she would stand that long 

I would be happy with 1/2 gallon per day.


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## Moody (Mar 31, 2015)

Oh and we have just one kid nursing.  She had a single girl and my other ff doe hasn't kidded yet.


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## Sweetened (Mar 31, 2015)

I think even ff heavy milkers are kept down by kids if not seperated at night.  When you restrict over night, the body fills up the udder and stretches it out, allowing for more milk production.  She is ONLY producing for that kid, plus the 1 cup you're taking.  When you start milking her out in the morning after the baby has been off at night, she will start making more milk because she's feeding more mouths.  Her priority is the kid, and she will do whatever it takes to feed that kid, including making more milk.

Flora, my gallon a day producer as a FF, lost her kid a week prior to us getting her.  When I emptied her out the first time, I got a gallon and a half of salty milk off her.  She didn't put anything back into that bag for 3 days, so I milked that out, and started milking every day.  It took me 2 weeks to get her producing well again milking multiple times a day, maybe half a cup here or a cup there.  Finally I got her to give me a gallon every 3 days.  Knowing her production (and because of orf issues here), when she kidded, she never filled her bag, and her kid keeps her empty.  When I start milking her again (probably next week), she will give me very little, if anything, and I KNOW what she's capable of.

Boy is her kid massive though.  She's grown twice as fast as the others, and is the youngest of them all.  I'm hoping she'll be a big girl!


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## Moody (Mar 31, 2015)

Thanks for that example. I won't judge her as a poor producer just yet. 

Tonight I will try to separate them. It is only pallets dividing the stall so hopefully she can't jump it yet. 

I have 5 goats. The buck and wether are in a  separate pen in the woods. The 2 does and kid are in a 8x8 stall at night that can be halved by pallets. I will put baby with the other doe and she can still smell and see her momma that way.


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## Moody (Mar 31, 2015)

Or maybe I will put her alone on one side so I can offer goat pellets to munch on....without the doe taking it all.


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## Sweetened (Apr 1, 2015)

Without mom to protect her id recommend keeping her by herself. They can surprise you when a kid is left without mom and suddenly turn on them. My triplets cant be let in to play with the other kids unless im their as their mother (we pulled them) goes after them the moment im gone.

Id give her a small, well bedded place by herself with hay, water and any creep feed youre wanting to offer. Milk in the morning and release the baby once youre done.


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## Moody (Apr 1, 2015)

Thank you so much for all your help sweetened! 

I got 2 whole cups today in 15 min of mostly 2 handed milking. 
I didn't empty her as I knew baby was hungry since this was her first night near but not with momma. She did fine by herself. I gave her some feed and a bit of water. 

Im hoping to get at least 2 quarts a day from this doe.


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## animalmom (Apr 1, 2015)

That is a good update!  Great to hear!


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## Sweetened (Apr 1, 2015)

Great update indeed! With mom being empty in the morning, it encourages them to try food with mom. She will feed heavily off her all day.

You did great!

Did mom stand any better for you?


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## norseofcourse (Apr 1, 2015)

I've been reading your thread from the start, and it's great to see the progress and the success you've had  

I milked my sheep for the first time last year, and I also had a hard time at first.  It was great when I finally had some success, but I was still getting very small amounts because I was leaving the lambs with their moms.  When I finally started separating them overnight and milking in the morning, I got a lot more milk!  I will be doing the same routine this year, starting much earlier in their lactations, and I'm looking forward to this year's results.

Hope things keep going well with yours!


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## Moody (Apr 2, 2015)

It sure is tough at first!

Yes she is standing better but not perfect. She does not eat all I give which is the same amount as before kidding (which is one full 10 oz milk replacer cup full)
And I've added alfalfa pellets. She doesn't eat all of it and starts to fidget about 5 min in, but I learned to have her udder clean and be ready to milk before I even add the feed.

Today I didn't even get the 2 cups I got yesterday. Maybe 1.5-1.75 cup. Baby started calling her and she really wanted to get back to her.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 2, 2015)

It sounds as though you may have poor orifices. 
When you milk the teats out is the flow smooth and you get a nice long smooth flow? It sounds like her orifices may be small or poorly formed.

Do you have any pics of her udder? Teats?
How is your hand placement? Sometimes it is technique.

Even with a single on this is not usual even for a FF Nubian.
Is she purebred Nubian? Cross?

Our Nubian- now she is not a ff but we can milk 1/2 gallon am in a *few minutes*... we share her kids with her... and depending on much they were on her in the daytime she  will give 1qt (if they have been on most of the day) - another 1/2 gallon.


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## babsbag (Apr 2, 2015)

I agree with @Southern by choice about the orifices. I am milking by machine and I have some does that milk out in 2 or 3 minutes and some that take 7 or 8 minutes and give less milk. I have one right now that I am hand milking on one side only and it take me about 10 minutes to get 2 cups.  She is a FF also but the stream of milk that comes out is just a very fine stream. It is a trait  to look for in a doe when buying them...wish I had known that years ago.


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## Sweetened (Apr 2, 2015)

I was thinking she was tough to milk as well (tootsie was), but without her having another goat to compare with it's hard to know.


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## Sunny75 (Apr 2, 2015)

I can't imagine taking that much time and getting that little.  I can milk out our Lamancha Blossom (2nd freshner) in under 5 minutes and get 2 quarts, but she lets down almost immediately and as long as there is food in front of her she is a dream...


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## Moody (Apr 3, 2015)

I took some pics this morning and will try to load them later today. 

This morning I used a timer, again. I got 1/2 cup at 5 min of 2 handed milking. Then I took about 30 seconds to dump that into a clean jar since she started moving a bit and I knew a foot in the bucket was a possibility. Then I started again and had another 1.5 cups at the 10 minute mark. The whole time I used both hands to milk, only stopping to move bucket for a second while she fussed and she did hit the side and ruin the milk in the bucket, good thing I dumped some earlier. I quit at 10 min, brought baby in to nurse while on the stand. 

I Have no experience but from videos I have seen, it looks like the stream is thin. I get some good milking for a bit but it just doesn't fill the bucket like on the videos I have viewed. Her left side milks easier than he right but I am using my right hand there so that may be the difference.


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## Sweetened (Apr 3, 2015)

I would say she has small orifices then for sure. So she may be a great producer but getting that milk out is not going to be easy. With the right buck i would think that could improve??


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 3, 2015)

Keep it up.  You are already getting more milk and the more she milks and produces, the more her capacity will increase, teats lengthen, and I would say even the opening will widen.  She may get better and you will too.  Milking with both hands takes some time and you will have some very strong hand---who needs a nutcracker, just have Moody give it a squeeze.


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## Moody (Apr 3, 2015)

Lol. I will have strong hands!

This was before milking


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## Moody (Apr 3, 2015)

And after milking. I can see that she is lopsided and that it doesn't look much deflated. But I do try to leave some for baby. Momma really gets impatient.


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## Moody (Apr 3, 2015)




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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 3, 2015)

It is normal for them to have a bit of a lopsided look.  Kid might nurse more on one side too.  And on the kid note, don't leave any for it.  The dam will produce more, enough for you both and milking her out completely will encourage production.


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## Sweetened (Apr 3, 2015)

That doe has good udder size, so amount of production isnt an issue i wouldnt think. Looks like intensely small teats and the from what weve heard small orifices.

If you know skmeone around who milks goats, perhaps you can have them show you a good technique that will help with her.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 3, 2015)

I am thinking she either has a meaty udder or she is holding the milk back as well as small orifices.

Meaty udders will make an udder look real nice and purdy but the key is what about once milked out... that is when you can see it.
Not always a bad thing but look at it this way... A new mom has "B" cup size and nurses her baby fine no issues... plenty of milk...
Now another mom has "DD" 's looks like there would be a ton of milk... yet there can be little milk and this momma doesn't have enough.

The DD's LOOK like it should be a milk bath LOL but just noy always so.


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## babsbag (Apr 3, 2015)

One of the things they look for at a goat show is how empty is the udder after milking, they want it to  be deflated like an empty glove. I have one that looks like she is always ready to be milked, and she isn't.

I agree with Pearce, don't leave any for baby, empty that udder and let baby wait, mom will make more than enough for her and ultimately more for you.


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## Moody (Apr 5, 2015)

I believe I got 3 cups this morning. Milking her until there isn't much stream. She stepped in my bucket and spilled some. 

She is fighting me pretty hard but I stay calm and "win". I do have to hobble her to get past 5 min of milking. It is taking me about 15 min to get what I get.


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## Moody (Apr 6, 2015)

I got a whole quart of milk this morning. I'm excited.


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## Moody (Apr 6, 2015)

She didn't fight a whole lot this morning. I didn't try to hard to milk her last night. Just a bit, but mostly I wanted her to eat well last night and she did.


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## goatgurl (Apr 6, 2015)

I've been following this and am so glad you and she are getting better.  patience is indeed a virtue but it is so hard to be patient sometimes.  one thing to understand is that consistency is so important.  if you are going to milk her twice a day then do so, don't let her off the hook.  if she fights and you quit she wins she will learn to fight harder so you will quit.  sounds like you are getting the hang of it though.  keep it up and you'll laugh about this all one day.


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## Moody (Apr 7, 2015)

And another quart this morning and a cup last night. I have to tie her legs somehow. My hobble either has a user error or she is just able to still kick my bucket. Wrestling with her (she only stands for 3-5 min still), gets tons of hairs from who knows where into the milk if I manage to keep her from actually stepping in it. I had one leg tied up this morning awkwardly tied high to the fence beside the stand. She still managed to get out and nearly toppled the stand to do so. Baby is waiting patiently and not calling for her so  don't know why she won't stand still longer than 3-5 min.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 7, 2015)

You might try tying each of her rear legs to the legs of the milk stand so that she can't kick forward.  That's how I've done it when needed and it seemed to work pretty well.

Seems like you're getting more milk so you're doing something right!  Good luck with her - you must have the patience of a saint, lol.


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## Moody (Apr 8, 2015)

I did tie both her legs this morning but the one that gives me the most trouble still allowed 6-8 inches of forward to back rocking space. I'll get it next time. She did not kick it or step in bucket though. I also put a handkerchief on top of my bucket to prefilter out hairs so couldn't see how full the bucket was. I only got 2.5 cups after having to stop every 2 minutes to allow her to attempt to get loose. I was at it for 20-25 min. I thought I at least had the quart. I know I should keep on until there is very little to no milk coming but There are kids in the house that need checking. 

I will keep working on it and get that tie so she can't move but about an inch.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 8, 2015)

Attaching a link for some strainers.  The biggest one fits perfectly on top of a 2 quart milk bucket and the next one down in size fits pretty well on a 1.5 quart bucket.    I've even used them on a saucepan that I use when I milk the shorter goats on my place. 

I hate hairs in my milk and these strainers do a wonderful job of keeping 'debris' out of the milk.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-Plastic-Strainer-Set/20462972


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## Moody (Apr 8, 2015)

Thanks for the link! That would work out better than my hanky


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 8, 2015)

We have both a strainer with commercial filters and also make use of a coffee filter stuck inside a wide funnel.  Both work well.


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## Sweetened (Apr 8, 2015)

When my gurld are learning and start flailing, i will keep my hand on the udder or teat and release as soon as the resistance stops to try and show thats what i want.


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## babsbag (Apr 8, 2015)

You can also put a piece of cheesecloth over the bucket and milk through that. I always strain it after I get it to the house. But I draw the line at feet and flies in the milk; no amount of straining and pasteurizing takes care of that


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## Sweetened (Apr 8, 2015)

The three F's. Feet, flies and feces.


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## Moody (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok I got a good filter going. Thanks!

This morning I got over a quart! It filled a quart jar plus a wee bit more!!


Problem is it took me 30 min to get this. She fights every tie I try and ends up loosening it enough to be able to kick or step in the bucket. I had to milk one handed and hold a fresh clean jar after the bucket still got compromised. 

I moved the stand back after she kicked over my milk 3 times last night. It is backed up against a fence and has fence on the side I don't milk from. I used some baling twine to make a loop that loosens when she lets off the pressure and had that tied to the back fence. (She got it completely off). I used a dog leash to make a similar loop for the right leg and tied it to the back fence. She literally only had maybe 2 inches to move her legs. I put the loops above the joint (above the hock) right on that tendon that should keep from kicking when compressed. The hobble I bought just does not work the way I need it to. Her legs are closer together and I have trouble getting bucket and hands I between and still she manages to kick bucket. 

I have seen the pic online with the legs tied straight back and it looks like goat could not move, must just be me and my tying....


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## Moody (Apr 10, 2015)

I lost the battle this morning. She stepped into the bucket despite my tying. I had to finally hold one leg up and milk one handed and the milk went to the dogs. 

There is a lot of frustration when I deal with her. When that leg gets up I push into her and grab that leg. Then I say things in a chipper voice but the thibgs I say aren't chipper.


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## Moody (Apr 10, 2015)

I used to pick up my bucket (so it is out of the way) and let her try to get out. Then go back when she settled but now I'm keeping my hand on her teat. Not making a difference.  

Also trying to ensure I'm not pulling but squeezing and I'm getting good squirts with much better flow but I wonder if I'm squeezing the udder? As in my hands are too high since she has smallish teats.....


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 10, 2015)

I know you've been dealing with a lot of frustration with this gal, but may I suggest something?  I see that you've got her tied above the hock - and in theory - "they" say that will keep her from kicking... in practice I think it's not working so well.

Maybe try this:  Move your ties down to just above the bottom joint on her legs and make sure your ties cords are running backwards so that she absolutely can't kick forward. 

I've gotta commend you on the patience you've shown with her.


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## Moody (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm trying. I was thinking of tying down low so I will try that. I will try tying down instead of straight back.


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## Sweetened (Apr 10, 2015)

I agree! You have incredible patience. If/WHEN you can get her trained you will be able to write that book!

I always tied down, so i can see back doing the same thing. I cant find my leashes so i cant even show you how i tie. On my small teated doe, i do end up holding onto part of the udder when i milk, but i just make sure i cant feel mammary tissue when im milking, you can feel that even on big teated does that sometimes have tissue low in those teats.

If youre getting a better stream youre doing something right! Good on you for sticking with this.


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## Moody (Apr 10, 2015)

Wait a minute....there is a possibility that I can never get her trained?! I really am not that patient with her. I'm trying but falling short. 

I believe she fights it because she is a good momma and only thinks of her baby. 

I don't tie her super tight because I don't want it to be a bad experience for her but I must win this war. I mostly want her to be comfortably restrained.


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## Sweetened (Apr 10, 2015)

Tie her tight! Not cutting circulation tight but she should NOT be able to move. She will learn this is what you want, standing nice. Once she stands nice tethered for about a week, then release one foot. If she starts on her crap again, tie it right back up and try again the next day.

If you lose heart shes untrainable. I had a doe thatd do all she could to kill herself and it just wasnt worth it for me. She was deemed untrainable.

Next year you could try pulling her kid, see if she stands any better, i have noticed flora doesnt stand as well since caring for a kid, but she will stand. Gladys, whos trips were pulled, i milk anywhere any time without so much as a rope to keep her in place. She also thinks im her kid though :/ cleans me incessantly.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Apr 11, 2015)

I also commend you for your patience Moody!  Good job!
I agree with Sweetened that you want to make sure she's tied so that she can't kick, and also that her head is tied too. I first learned how to milk this year, on my Dad's goat, and at first it was certainly helpful to have someone hold her feet or tie her. She got much better at standing, but I have to admit, she didn't give me nearly the amount of trouble your girl is giving you. I'd also say watch her feet. If she looks like she's going to start kicking, I'd do like you were doing and grab the pail out of the way, and wait for her to settle down. Don't take her off the milk stand or untie her, just wait till she stops kicking.
Also, a recommendation for the future would be (to quote/semi-quote a friend of mine) to get her up on the milk stand about a month before she gives birth, and get her used to being up there/standing still every day. Start off at a short period of time, and work your way up to a longer period. [Hopefully then when it comes time to milk her she will be used to being up there and behave nicely. ]


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## Moody (Apr 11, 2015)

Believe it or not, I did have her on the stand from the day I got her around 18 months of age. I trimmed her feet for her first time, too. She always got up there willingly after the first couple of times. 

This morning I tightly tied both feet down low to the milk stand legs. I had to use baling twine and it was wrapped around her leg and knotted.  I was using a slip knot trying to have something that would relieve tension when she stopped pulling but that does not work period. My ties this morning worked. She had some leeway but could not get to my tall bucket. 

Then I guess I pissed her off cause she didn't want to even nurse her baby after. After a couple of tries she finally let her nurse.


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## Sweetened (Apr 11, 2015)

Lol. Her being bitter isnt a bad thing. My girls wont let their babies nurse after i milk them for a few minutes either and theyre used to it!


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 11, 2015)

Moody said:


> Then I guess I pissed her off cause she didn't want to even nurse her baby after. After a couple of tries she finally let her nurse.



Sounds like this gal lives life pissed off!   

Glad this morning worked a little better for you!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Apr 13, 2015)

How is she acting today Moody?


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## Moody (Apr 13, 2015)

This morning the stand was slippery and wet. So very little fight from her. I got her tied pretty good now. 

I milked for 15 min with both hands and got less than a quart. I had to stop, my hands were tired.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Apr 13, 2015)

That's good that she's behaving better!! Glad it's working!
Aww! It can take a while at first, esp. if it's your first time milking! Last year was my first time, and after a while I got faster. You'll get there! Keep up the good work!!


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 13, 2015)

Having a slippery stand has worked for me before.  They don't like being on a surface that doesn't feel secure to them.  Glad she acted a bit better for you!


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## Moody (Apr 19, 2015)

Wow she is so much better now! At almost 5 weeks into her lactation, she stood completely still this morning and made zero effort to kick! I get 5-6 cups of milk in just the mornings. Evenings I get either a couple of ounces or a whole cup but baby is on her all day. It is amazing how much better she is. Still takes almost 15 min of intense hurry up and milk, to even get that but it is so much better. 

Thanks for all the advice and help.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 19, 2015)

YAY!  So glad that it's better for you (and her) now!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Apr 20, 2015)

I echo @frustratedearthmother by saying that I'm so glad she's behaving better now! Great job!


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 20, 2015)

Glad to hear of the improvement.


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## goatgurl (Apr 20, 2015)

good for you and your perseverance!!


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## norseofcourse (Apr 20, 2015)

Woohoo!!! Glad it's going so much better!


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