# Nubian Buck Dying,... (Was lost, rest of herd?)



## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 12, 2014)

He is 12 months old, temp is 98.6, not moving, his neck is twisted back but he is watching us. I have on hand B Complex among other things... Coop closes in 30 min and it take 10 to get there.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 12, 2014)

We found him seperated when we went down for the evening feeding. We have been down to the barn many times the last few days as a doe is about to kid. He was fine every other time we were down there, nothing out of the ordinary. He was laying on his side when found with his head twisted back and he was "mhaa"ing... He is now on the dog bed in the living room. He is watching us and occasionaly crying out. Not interested in food or water. He was last wormed about a month and a half ago.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 12, 2014)

It seems like he is moving his back legs to relieve a stomach cramp to me and occasionaly trying to get up, His stomach does not feel hard or look bloated....


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 12, 2014)

I just remembered one thing more to check. He appears anemic. What can I do?


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## norseofcourse (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm sorry, I don't know anything about goats. Have you give him anything? Nutridrench? Have you called your vet? Any experienced goat people near you that you can call? Best thoughts for him...


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## AshleyFishy (Feb 12, 2014)

Call your vet immediately.  Sounds like it is already late in the game though. How does his breath smell? Has he had his cdt booster?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 12, 2014)

No he has not had his cdt yet, was going to call and complain to hogger about having to wait 3 weeks for needles tomorrow... His breath smells like grain and goat? I have a call into my vet but she is the only one and is 2.5 hours away...


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## woodsie (Feb 12, 2014)

I just had a day old lamb do the exacty same thing and we saved her…I crushed up a human multi-vitamin (prenatal) gave her a 1/6th dose (it was an all natural source multi-vit but anything is better than nothing and I stuck a b-complex vitamin in her cheek to dissolve. I crushed up the Vitamin mixed with water and syringed down the throat. THen we wrapped her up tight with lots of blankets and cuddled for a couple hours so she didn't give up or get cold…she was eagerly drinking a bottle within a couple hours. Hope he pulls through for you.


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## woodsie (Feb 12, 2014)

I know it looks bad and it was a bit of a hail-mary but that's all I had on hand and it worked…I believe it is called "star-gazing" and it comes from lack of Thamine, which can happen when they are stressed…mine was stressed due to cold and really had a failure to thrive but with some vitamins he can make a turn around. Don't give up on him!


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## woodsie (Feb 12, 2014)

Oh I missed that he was 12 months old…still worth a try, any chance he got into grain? I did lose a doe last year that had similar symptoms due to overeating, was not able to save her as her rumen had shut down…can you hear his rumen working?


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm so sorry you have to go thru this 

If it were my goat, I would be giving LOTS of nutri-drench and probiotics. CALL THE VET ASAP! S/he may be able to give some advice until they can get out to you!

Hopefully @elevan, @Southern by choice, @Roll farms, @20kidsonhill will chime in and give some more advice!

Does it sound like anything in this link?
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html


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## elevan (Feb 12, 2014)

@dejavoodoo114 

Get a heating pad or hot water bottle and stick it between his back legs right in the crotch area.  That will help bring up his temperature.  Be sure to wrap it in a towel so you don't burn the skin.

Give nutri drench and probiotics.

When was the last time that you saw him pee?

Do you have Red Cell on hand?  If so dose him with that.  That will help with the anemia.

Is he still not moving?  Do you have the Tetnus Antitoxin (not the vaccine)?  If so give it to him per the directions.

Can you hear rumen sounds?

Call your vet...regardless if she is 2 hours away, she can give some advice over the phone.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 18, 2014)

Sorry, I have not been on in  a while.   I hope he recovered. 
1. Bring him in where it is warm and warm him on a heating pad or with warm towels from the dryer.
2.  after warming and body temp is up to 100,  access the situation closer,  Anemia probably means worm load, dehydration ect...
Give 1 cc of pig iron per 100 lbs of body weight,(one time a week)
Give B-complex daily or at least the first three days and then again when you give him iron again, (injectable B-complex, as an injection)
Drench the goat slowly,  with warm electrolytes,  I really like resorb or Sav A caf plus has a nice orange taste to it. 
repeating drenching every 2 to 3 hours,  But don't force it and stress them out or chock them on the drench. 
Once warmed and a little more alert, figure on gathering a fecal or worming with a mild wormer.  Then in a week when the goat is stronger, worm with a stronger wormer. 

This is going off that fact that you feel he is anemic,  Not bloated, no scours,  I personally would give Procain G shots as well, since he may be acceptable to infection at this point, and it is good for treating polio,  listerosis, 
To treat polio/listeriosis, it requires high dosages of Procain G and B-complex/thiamin given every 6 hours.  Along with supportive care such as energy drenches and hydration.  

To me the fact that he is on his side and his head is down, could mean just about anything that would simply cause him to go down and become cold and low on blood sugar and dehydrated.   With the colder weather they can go down quickly during the night.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 18, 2014)

Sorry I have not updated this.

I had brought him in next to the fire and called the vet as soon as I saw how sick he was. When she called back she also thought he might be anemic and suggested I take him to the UT vet hospital for a blood transfusion. We made the arrangements and I took him in despite the bad weather (I ended up stuck in town because of the snow). When I got there his heart rate was Very low along with his temp and his breathing. They did the test to see if he was anemic and found that his levels were perfectly normal. The vet told me that his gums etc were Grey not White and while white means anemic, grey means shock. I wish I had known this because I have steroids for shock. They kept him over night to try and stabilize him but we lost him in the morning. 

They told me they would do a necropsy the next day which was very important to me as I had a doe about to kid that was also not gaining weight properly. After putting all the pieces I had together this is what I could see: In November 4 of my goats started loosing weight, 3 does and my buck. In Dec I put all 10 goats in the barn and started giving extra grain to those four. I also wormed them etc... In January, in 2 degree weather I lost one of my does who was pregnant and another aborted. I was relieved at the abortion because she was not healthy and I could not get them to gain weight fast enough. 

Despite the low body weight the buck and remaining pregnant doe were active and eating well and otherwise normal so I just continued to give them extra feed. Then the buck went down and we lost him. Which is truely tragic because the doe that aborted had amazing show lines as did the buck and we bought her for him. Now there will be no kids of theirs next year like I thought when it happened. 

I knew the other doe was going to kid soon and was anxious for the necropsy. However, all the snow delayed it. Thursday she went down and could not get up again. She did not appear to be going into shock but she was too weak to stand. By being a large pain in the butt UT finally called the off duty vet Sat and found out that my buck had High levels of cocci. I had corrid on hand and immediatly started that doe on it and B complex because it was all I had. She had twins (First freshener) Monday morning, the first was dead when it came out, it was in the birth canal for up to an hour before I pulled it out. The second, a buck almost a pretty as his sire, lived. Then last night with the afterbirth was another kid. The vet thinks it died in utero and so was expelled with the placenta. So three all together, she is alert and eating and normal except she still can not stand on her own. I have now switched her to Amprol (?) and started all my other goats on it so I don't have to worry about the thiamin levels.

I am still waiting for the final info from the necropsy but the vet thinks its all because of the cocci. I have been kicking myself for not figuring it out soon enough to save my buck. I knew about cocci from loosing chicks to it but know nothing about it in goats. That is my next research project. 

Thank you all for your help and if you didn't know before remember that Grey=Shock and White=Anemic...


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 18, 2014)

So sorry to hear about your losses  and hope things start getting better for you


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## Sweetened (Feb 18, 2014)

For Cocci: PROBIOTICS

You can give it on top of what you're giving them now.  Get good quality plain yogurt with  bacterial cultures into their stomachs.  This can ONLY help.  Cocci is an overabundance of a naturally and normally existing flora.  Help the gut, regulate the flora.  I would, personally, be willing to give her 1cc of Aloe Vera JUICE if she was my goat.  It's a purgative, and would encourage the gut to empty and cleanse.  That's entirely your decision and, if you get to a desperate last ditch state, keep it in the back of your mind.  It's like a master reset for the gut.  Good luck.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2014)

Sweetened said:


> For Cocci: PROBIOTICS
> 
> You can give it on top of what you're giving them now.  Get good quality plain yogurt with  bacterial cultures into their stomachs.  This can ONLY help.  Cocci is an overabundance of a naturally and normally existing flora.  Help the gut, regulate the flora.  I would, personally, be willing to give her 1cc of Aloe Vera JUICE if she was my goat.  It's a purgative, and would encourage the gut to empty and cleanse.  That's entirely your decision and, if you get to a desperate last ditch state, keep it in the back of your mind.  It's like a master reset for the gut.  Good luck.



Coccidiosis is a parasitic disease of the intestinal tract of animals caused by coccidian protozoa. I don't think that I would call if a naturally eixistng flora.

I am sorry you having a tough time with your goats. Hopefully you are ahead of the troubles now.


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## Sweetened (Feb 19, 2014)

They are a spore forming parasite naturally found within the gut flora at low levels.  Their existence is persistent in the gut much like most humans carry staph on their skin almost all their lives.  It becomes a problem when the body is out of balance, thus part of the gut flora system that regulates health.

Regardless of my use of the exact definitions, treat the gut you treat the animal, that's a universal thing, throughout all animal life.  It was merely a suggestion, as it's something that I have saved animals from in the past.  I usually mix oregano oil into a container to ward off any secondary onslaught to the immune system.

All the best.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 19, 2014)

We lost the little buck last night. We are thinking of taking the doe who just kidded to the hospital. She is alert and drinking and eating and everything but so were Rocky and the buckling. This way they can keep an eye on her and do any tests to see if it is for sure cocci or something else or a combination. Also, I hope they have some ideas for helping to get weight back on. I have one other, the doe who aborted, who I would like to see with more weight. I can never get those kids back now that Rocky is gone.

EDT: I have been giving them all probiotics since Thursday when Rocky died and Snowflake went down. Along with B-Complex and electrolytes.


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## SheepGirl (Feb 19, 2014)

If they still have his body you can see if they can get some sperm/semen from his testes. I know of someone who did that with a ram that passed and now he can use him for ai.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 19, 2014)

I'm just throwing this out there....  Yes - Coccidia is devastating and yes it can do horrible things to your herd.  But...it does seem a little odd to me that you had does aborting, kids born weak, and more than one grown animal dying all in a relatively short time span.  I would be questioning if it is "just" coccidia.  I really wish there were a more thorough investigation for you and your herds sake.   

You said you wormed in December and later you lost a pregnant doe and another aborted.  There are wormers that are not safe for pregnant does -but I wouldn't think they would kill the doe either.

I know I'm projecting my own fears and concerns here - but I would not be totally satisfied with a coccidia diagnosis.

So sorry you had to go through this heart-breaking   experience.


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## babsbag (Feb 19, 2014)

I am very sorry you lost him, that is heartbreaking.

I too would be questioning that diagnosis of just coccidia. Coccidia isn't usually a killer of adult animals, not say it can't, but not common. And it usually (again, not always) accompanied by scours. If  you lost that little buckling from coccidia I am certain he would have had signs of it before dying.

I think you had/have a necropsy done. I hope they are checking for Johne's, mycoplasma, selenium deficiency, and other mineral levels. Those would be at the top of my list, with Johne's being first. And I sincerely hope that it is anything but that.

Hoping and praying for your remaining herd.


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## babsbag (Feb 19, 2014)

Sweetened said:


> They are a spore forming parasite naturally found within the gut flora at low levels.  Their existence is persistent in the gut much like most humans carry staph on their skin almost all their lives.  It becomes a problem when the body is out of balance, thus part of the gut flora system that regulates health.
> 
> Regardless of my use of the exact definitions, treat the gut you treat the animal, that's a universal thing, throughout all animal life.  It was merely a suggestion, as it's something that I have saved animals from in the past.  I usually mix oregano oil into a container to ward off any secondary onslaught to the immune system.
> 
> All the best.


 
I just reread my post...I sounded a little harsh...sorry. Every herd owner can treat as they see fit and other ideas never hurt. I have used natural remedies for things myself, but cocci can do so much damage so quickly that I think that personally I would always take the traditional approach for treatment. I even go so far as to do preventative treatments with kids. It is easy to prevent, and a bear to treat if you have a lot of kids on the ground.

Again, I apologize if I sounded like I was criticizing, that wasn't my intent, and I guess that technically you are correct, they are always there.

But a serious question for you...why do you think that it targets kids and usually other young animals? Does the animal just learn to live with it as they develop?


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## Sweetened (Feb 19, 2014)

Hi Babs!  My apologies as well if my counter came off brash.  I wasn't suggesting they avoid the conventional treatment, Probiotics will not interrupt or interfere with those treatments, only assist them.  It can be the little kick they need for the conventional treatment to take off.

I think Cocci effects young animals for the same reason a dog with a compromised immune system can end up with Parvo later in life.  Cocci is an opportunistic predator, like viruses and other parasites.  A good analogy would very much be something like... If you have calves in a herd of cows (beneficial gut flora), when coyotes (cocci) are near, the calves stay steady in the middle of the herd and most times, the pack will move through the area to pick at something else.  However the more cows you remove, the less protected the calf becomes.  One or two cows remain to protect several calves, and suddenly the coyotes are picking things off, weakening the herd before finally taking over the area.  If other cattle were to move in (or be moved in like probiotics), the coyotes would once again back off.

I have brought back chicks from the brink of death (who could not walk), by force feeding small syringe of probiotic yogurt mixed with oregano oil.  The Oregano oil fights secondary infections (and is also antiparasitic) and the yogurt helps the gut to restore balance, thus putting a pounding on the overproduction of cocci.  Aloe Vera Juice is a sytem flush, however it's one that provides nutrients and leaves beneficial flora in tact.  It forces the bowels to clean the lining, removing whatever contaminants are in the gut wall preventing the uptake of nutrition.

I have had great success treating cocci with probitic methods, moreso than using medication or medicated feeds.  

Sorry if I inadvertently highjacked the thread.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 19, 2014)

Amprolium is Corid.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 19, 2014)

I heard more than one farm this year had problems with coccidiosis in their adults.  We are all too familiar with it and we do treat, mostly in spring and summer on a regular basis for it.  It is manageable, but annoying to say the least.


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## babsbag (Feb 19, 2014)

20kidsonhill said:


> I heard more than one farm this year had problems with coccidiosis in their adults.  We are all too familiar with it and we do treat, mostly in spring and summer on a regular basis for it.  It is manageable, but annoying to say the least.


 
Do you see symptoms in the adults or just treat as a matter of course?

I use sulfadimethoxine  40% for both prevention and treatment. I don't have to give them much and I like that. The summers here are very hot and dry, I think that helps a lot with control.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 19, 2014)

If I feel the adults, especially  2 and 3 year olds are looking flimsy I will treat them extra, but for the most part we run the corid(Amprolium)  in the water on a fairly regular basis in spring and summer.  But I have seen adults for sure get thin or scour and respond to being treated with corid only.  

To restate,  Corid is Amprolium.  Corid is the brand name and Amprolium is the active ingredients.  
I have also used Sulfa dimethoxine,  I was not getting as good of results with it, and when I asked the vet he explained that the rumen eats up the sulfa andit makes it less useful compared to Corid, except for in young kids that are not ruminanting yet.

We also use Rumensin in our feed.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 19, 2014)

I should say for the most part it is the kids we are treating and young adults, and since we put the medication in the water, they all get treated.


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## babsbag (Feb 19, 2014)

Now you have me wondering about a doe I have. She just freshened with twins a month ago and no matter how much hay or grain I give her she is losing weight. I did worm her but now I am going to have a fecal done on her.  I use auto waterers so not sure how I would treat the water. I guess that you don't worry about Corid and thiamine?


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## Egg_Newton (Feb 19, 2014)

I would be concerned with vitamin deficiency. Do you have loose minerals available for them? Do you live in a selenium deficient area? Use copper supplements?


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 20, 2014)

So sorry for your loss @dejavoodoo114


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 21, 2014)

no, we don't worry about Corid and Thiamin.  I have not had a single case of polio on the farm in 15 years of using it.  But I do follow the directions and only give it for 5 or 6 days, you can drench her with it as well,  according to the directions.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 21, 2014)

babsbag said:


> Now you have me wondering about a doe I have. She just freshened with twins a month ago and no matter how much hay or grain I give her she is losing weight. I did worm her but now I am going to have a fecal done on her.  I use auto waterers so not sure how I would treat the water. I guess that you don't worry about Corid and thiamine?


 I would worm her with a white wormer such as Valbazen or synanthic. and treat for coccidiosis and check her ketones, or drench her for 5 days with magic drench to see if that kicks her system back into gear. Of course no amount of magic drench is going to reverse a heavy worm load that is not treated. 
Then if continued problems I would recheck the fecal and then do blood work for Johne's disease.


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## babsbag (Feb 21, 2014)

Her twins are on her too, which makes it really hard on her. I am hoping they will start eating hay soon and give her a break. They are about 5 weeks so soon. I will wean them ASAP. I did worm her with Ivermectin last week.

I will get a fecal done this weekend and see what we see. I should check all my herd for Johne's just to say that I did. I don't see any indication of it in any other goats and I run a pretty closed herd. This doe was born on my farm; as are most of my goats.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 21, 2014)

You can get your 5 week old kids on creep feed to get them going better for an earlier weaning and to give mom a break. I don't find Ivermectin to be all that great of a wormer and not all that well rounded of a wormer.  A white wormer like synanthic or valbazen may cover more problems.  I am not saying fecals are a total waste of time, but if it comes back negative I still do not rule out a parasite problems, including coccidiosis.  WE have had several fecals come back negative and the vet said worm and treat anyway and then the goat got better.  Fecals are only a small sample,  it can be hit and miss. Now if the fecal does show something, that can be helpful for sure.  Like if it comes back loaded with coccidiosis.  But if it shows nothing, I don't assume it is totally accurate.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 21, 2014)

X2 20 kids... if nothing on a fecal I re-run them always.


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## babsbag (Feb 21, 2014)

Working on the creep. Just penned them up tonight to give mom a chance to eat and sleep without them being literally "attached". These bucklings are good size, haven't missed a meal, but they are on mom every chance they get; perhaps she is having a hard time keeping up the supply.

Have never used a white wormer. Being that I have dry lot pasture, especially this winter, worms have never been a big issue in the past, doesn't mean they aren't now. The doe looked good right after freshening, and during her pregnancy; I think the nursing is just taking its toll. She has alfalfa in front of her at all times, and now grain, which she isn't crazy about...silly goat....my dairy stock would kill for that kind of feed. But her coat looks like crap. I have also been giving her noble goat pellets, a milk parlor 16% grain, kelp, and loose minerals. Guess I will go get some other wormer.

How do you convince a 5 week old kid that pellets are good? They are "playing" with the hay, but that is all.


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## Roll farms (Feb 23, 2014)

I'm hearing Johne's is getting to be a bigger and bigger problem in the goat world.


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## babsbag (Feb 23, 2014)

Roll farms said:


> I'm hearing Johne's is getting to be a bigger and bigger problem in the goat world.



That is frightening and all the more reason to keep a closed herd when possible. Non of my goats have come from unknowns. I have had a few new ones in the last few years, but all from herds that I know. Doesn't make me safe, but buying off of CL would scare me more.

I should look into testing them all.


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## Roll farms (Feb 23, 2014)

A woman contacted me about a driveway breeding w/ our Nubian buck.  The next week she emailed to tell me they wouldn't make it, she had to test her entire herd for it b/c a doe she'd bought from a well-known breeder's herd had tested positive.

Scares me how easily we trust people and risk our herd's health....


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## Southern by choice (Feb 23, 2014)

We are "small scale" and we do use Craigslist sometimes for goats we have for sale. In our region that is how most people "adevrtise" even well know breeders.

We have found many list what they test for and also provide the documentation.
We test for Johnes, CAE, and CL

The Johnes test is a bit tricky. If a doe is pregnant it will throw the test also if she has recently kidded. Other factors include meds/dewormers.

Another factor is how a lab reports. Our state lab (Rollins) will have "Susp"... meaning suspect when actually the animal may NOT be suspect at all, it is just the code used... Suspect MAY MEAN "inconclusive".  When I talked with the lab they explained the whole process.

How do I know this? ... because one of my vets FAILED to mention this even knowing my doe was heavily pregnant)about to kid).   We repeated the test.... 6 weeks later. This happened to someone else I know and it really can cause a great deal of stress. We were not concerned and knew she was negative but I still had to do another blood draw and drive it to Raliegh. Not everyone has it that easy. I can draw my own blood and we live just over an hour from Raliegh , the test is only $1.50 but for others that could be very costly.

I think for so long no one tested for Johnes but now the word is getting out about it we are seeing more. Not sure if there really are more cases or if more people are discovering this because of the testing. Maybe both. IDK

It has long been a cattle disease so when we sell a meat goat (Kiko) we do let them know the goats are all tested and are Johnes Neg. because many are putting their cattle and their goats together. Several of the kikos we sold 5 months ago went to where they had cattle... they'd never heard of it.

My emoticons are not working. Boo Hoo ... My post is soo "naked" LOL


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## babsbag (Feb 23, 2014)

Roll farms said:


> A woman contacted me about a driveway breeding w/ our Nubian buck.  The next week she emailed to tell me they wouldn't make it, she had to test her entire herd for it b/c a doe she'd bought from a well-known breeder's herd had tested positive.
> 
> Scares me how easily we trust people and risk our herd's health....



Really glad that she was honest enough to tell you.

I may be babysitting a cow for the summer, and she belongs to my best friend but comes from a dairy. Now I am thinking that I need to ask her to test for Johnes before I take her. She is due to calve in June, I wonder if that will skew the test for a cow too. She is with my friends goats, I wonder if she ever thought about all of this.


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