# Looking for opinions on weird breeding experience



## Miss mouse (Jun 19, 2019)

Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
 Please share your opinion about any of the events
Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
Story:
We bought a 20lb pregnant female Flemish giant from a city 5 hours away from our house. We paid a pretty penny because the breeder said she's probably going to have 14-16 babies
I put her in my cat carrier and drove her home. She didn't like it at all and hated me for the first few days. 
We expected the babies for June 1-3 ish.
About 2 weeks early she started bunching straw so my bf said the babies must be coming.
She started moving straw around but didn't build a nest in the nest box.
Next she started pulling out fur but not enough and she just kind of left it all over the cage
She gave birth to 3 babies 1 week earlier than we expected but we only found 2 initially. She had each in a different space and didn't make a nest. We found the third buried in straw with a broken back.
We tried to keep putting the babies together but for the first 2 days they could be found anywhere in the closed in portion of the cage.
Here's the first weird thing about the kits: all three were born with fur, not a light dusting of color, they had proper fur.
After a few days she built them 2 nests and covered them up with fur. The babies were rarely in the same nest each time we checked in. By the fourth day they were usually in a nest together but which nest yet would be in would change. 
By the time the due date rolled around we gave up hoping she might have more (I'd read online that they could space them out when stressed).
Even though she's only got 2 she's favored one over the other. One kit has always been fed regular and the other has had a few days where mom didn't feed her. She was quick to learn to come out and find her own food as soon as she was able. The well fed kit is almost double the size of the other but my bf says the little one is the normal one and the large one is freaky. She's not fat though she just looks like she's from an older litter but they were born the same day and are about 3 weeks old now.
They opened their eyes on schedule.
So couple questions: would you give this mom another chance and see if she's a better mom with a bigger litter next time?
Why did they have fur?
All other comments or ideas of why things were weird is appreciated


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## Baymule (Jun 20, 2019)

My number 1 concern is that she was heavy bred when you bought her. The move, crammed in a cat carrier for 5 hours, strange new place and babies arriving soon obviously upset her. She gave birth a week earlier than what you were told, so the breeder either lied to you, or he didn't know what date she was bred, or the stress of moving caused her to give birth early. Put yourself in her place. How would you like to be taken away from your safe, comfortable home, crammed in a cage, carried off to a strange place and giving birth before you even feel safe in your new home? I am not bashing, just looking at it from her perspective.

Number 2, is this her first litter? How did the breeder know that she was going to have 14-16 babies? Has she had big litters before? Have you contacted the breeder about her litter? 

I would lavish her with attention and do everything to make her feel at home and safe. Give her a treat every day and work on a relationship with her. Yes, I would breed her again, after time to recover from this litter and settle down. 

What kind of cage was she in at her old home and how does it compare to the cage she is in now?  As far as the fur, I don't have an answer. 

I wish you the best with her, please let us know how she does. What is her name? 

And welcome to the forum, this is a great place with some of the nicest people on the internet.

@AmberLops @Bunnylady @B&B Happy goats


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 20, 2019)

I have to agree with @Baymule  all the way, give her time to adjust to the stress of the move, be kind to her...then rebreed. My FG just had her first bunch of 9 kits, all were equal size but do grow fast ! They had a coat by a week 1, eyes opened several days later.....
Welcome to BYH.....


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## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

Hmmm...
I have no clue about the fur. That's strange in a giant breed. I know my dwarfs can be born with fur (guard hairs) when they have the 'max-factor' gene. But that is a dwarf thing and doesn't happen in the bigger breeds.

I agree with what everyone else is saying...it was probably the stress of moving that caused all the issues.
Was it her first litter? If it was, then it's pretty normal for a first-time doe to have some kind of strange kindling issue.
Can you post pictures of the abnormally large kit compared to the other?

The best thing to do when they don't make a nest, or make it outside the box, is to put all the babies with the fur and straw in the nestbox anyway. That way they are all still together and can keep eachother warm and when it comes to feeding time, they'll all get to eat. I've had to do this a thousand times


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## Miss mouse (Jun 20, 2019)

First of all thank you all for the amazing responses.
I have to say I whole heartedly agree that it must have been a terrible experience for her. The carrier is actually quite large because my cats like to travel together so don't worry she wasn't crammed however I doubt she'd ever been far from her cage before let alone a 5 hours drive with an odd lady looking weird vegetables at her that she'd never tasted before.
I have a strong feeling he lied to us about when she was bred. My one hypothesis about the fur is that she may have been close to kindling the day we got her and held on to them as long as she could out of stress. She had just started to adjust when she started preparing for them.
The cage she was in when we picked her up was cramped, she couldn't have stood up if she'd wanted to. She could turn around and take a few steps. Our cage has an upper floor and lower floor. Both are y'all enough for a rabbit to stand up. They each have 3 sections that are roughly 2x2. When the mom is raising her young she gets all the sections but when they need to be separated it could potentially be split into 6 cages (3 up, 3 down) and he has an overflow cage. With only three rabbits though and we suspect they're all female I think they'll be fine together for a while.
I have been their new best friend since she got here. I don't think she'd ever had anything but pellets before. I bring her the veggie scraps from our cooking, dandelions, and some garden fresh every day and she's starting to learn that there's more yummy stuff in the world. 
I've checked on her and the babies every day twice a day so the babies are very comfortable with me. Their names are Lil Bit (mom), Chunky Bit (giant baby), and Itty Bit (smaller baby)
I'll try to get a good picture this morning. Unfortunately I don't have a small scale anymore to show the true difference in size.
@AmberLops @B&B Happy goats @Baymule


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## Miss mouse (Jun 20, 2019)

It's raining so they were all in the closed walled portion this morning. Itty bit was hiding under lil bit but I put them together for the last photo. 

Also, according to the breeder she had 2 litters last summer. 8-1 for the first and 10-1 for the second. Lil bit is approximately 2 years old.


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## GypsyG (Jun 20, 2019)

I have no idea about the fur, but your theory about her being further along in her pregnancy and holding onto the kits longer after a stressful move sounds good to me.

The breeder also most likely lied about the breed, because your doe is not a standard Flemish color.

The kits are large enough at this point that they would all probably be more comfortable if you removed the nestbox to give them some more room.


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## Miss mouse (Jun 20, 2019)

GypsyG said:


> I have no idea about the fur, but your theory about her being further along in her pregnancy and holding onto the kits longer after a stressful move sounds good to me.
> 
> The breeder also most likely lied about the breed, because your doe is not a standard Flemish color.
> 
> The kits are large enough at this point that they would all probably be more comfortable if you removed the nestbox to give them some more room.


She seems like a pretty big rabbit to not be pure FG. I know the father of these kits was a compete mix though so it's not like the breeder had a one breed operation.
*Edit*
So I looked it up and there's a recognised color called sandy that looks a lot like lil bit. The kits I think are Fawn


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## GypsyG (Jun 20, 2019)

Miss mouse said:


> She seems like a pretty big rabbit to not be pure FG. I know the father of these kits was a compete mix though so it's not like the breeder had a one breed operation.


I suppose that a Sandy crossed with a steel gray might produce a gold tipped steel... Her head shape does not look Flemish to me though.  I have several Flemish crosses in my herd that are 16 lb+.


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## secuono (Jun 20, 2019)

Ears look right for the breed.
Is she really 20#?
Unless they show, many people don't mind odd colors showing up in a breed & continuing it, so she could be pure. I had a lot of fun colors come out of my pedigreed Silver Fox rabbits & after a lot of chatting with other breeders, I found out that they were colors that really do exist.


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## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

The size difference is not that strange actually!
A few months ago my Netherland Dwarf had a litter of 4 kits, 2 were the same size, one was GIANT and one was so tiny I thought it was a peanut at first. I kept all the kits and ended up having to sell the tiniest one because she's much too small to be a breeder. But at 12 weeks old she weighed ounces. It was really weird seeing them next to eachother!
I'm not too familiar with Flemish Giants so I really can't give my opinion there. The color does look like a tort to me though, with the shading


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## Miss mouse (Jun 20, 2019)

She doesn't like being picked up so I haven't weighed her, just took the breeders word for it. Since we're just breeding for meat for ourselves anyway I'm not too concerned about her being pure or not. I'll even breed these kits if they're female and they are for sure a mix. I think we're going to get a FG as the male but if that one falls through I might get something else.


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## Baymule (Jun 20, 2019)

She didn’t know it, but she sure made a change of address for the better!


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## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

Yeah some breeders will be complete liars!!
I've dealt with a few of those myself.
Just a few months ago I had this guy call me and he wanted to do a trade...I'd give him my gorgeous blue 3 month old doe and he'd give me a 4 year old buck with a weepy eye that he can't fix...what the heck kind of deal is that??
What makes it worse is that a few weeks before his 'deal idea' he offered me that same buck for FREE if I paid $20 for a younger buck  I don't know if he remembers that!


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## Miss mouse (Jun 20, 2019)

Yeah, even when I first contacted this guy and just wanted a breeding pair the fact that he offered us a pregnant doe instead made me wonder what is wrong with her. For all I know she's 7 years old and has had 50 litters of 2 kits (over exaggerating) but the point is I don't know if I can believe a single thing he's told me about her except that's she's huge, female, and super laid back because those I've observed for myself.
I'm attaching pictures of my BF's amazing home made hutch and everybody happily eating garden greens just now when I checked in on them after work
@AmberLops


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## Baymule (Jun 20, 2019)

Nice rabbit hutch!


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## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

Wow!! That's a beautiful hutch...can he build me one??  Lucky bunnies!
Well i'm glad she's a nice doe! I think she's beautiful!


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## Miss mouse (Jun 20, 2019)

Just remembered one more question. Lil bit has still been pulling new fur even though the kits are 3 weeks old now and aren't in the nest. Should I be concerned?


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## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

Hmm...
She might just be hormonal and confused, usually a first-time doe thing.
Is she pulling mouthfuls or just a few pieces?
And is she carrying hay around at all or arranging a nest?


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## Miss mouse (Jun 21, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Hmm...
> She might just be hormonal and confused, usually a first-time doe thing.
> Is she pulling mouthfuls or just a few pieces?
> And is she carrying hay around at all or arranging a nest?


I just notice fresh tufts around the cage and her tummy and sides are fairly patchy. I haven't seen her bunching straw anymore and I haven't seen evidence of a nest but the kits could be flattening them if she had, they're rather playful.
And the breeder *said* this was her third litter. I feel really sorry for her if it's her first


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## AmberLops (Jun 21, 2019)

Maybe it is her 3rd litter and the stress really got her. It happens...I've bought a few heavily pregnant does and for some of them, the long drive home did a number on them and their pregnancies.
I do have a doe who's on her 4th litter and she pulls out fur up until the kits are weaned. She seems to pull it at night and when it's a little cooler outside...maybe she thinks they'll be cold? I don't know!


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## Miss mouse (Jun 21, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Maybe it is her 3rd litter and the stress really got her. It happens...I've bought a few heavily pregnant does and for some of them, the long drive home did a number on them and their pregnancies.
> I do have a doe who's on her 4th litter and she pulls out fur up until the kits are weaned. She seems to pull it at night and when it's a little cooler outside...maybe she thinks they'll be cold? I don't know!


That makes me feel much better. Thank you!


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## AmberLops (Jun 21, 2019)

You're welcome!
Rabbits are really strange and when you raise them things can/will go wrong and there will be issues...some are completely unexplainable... but it makes the good times a lot more fun 
Yesterday was a terrible day in my rabbitry but here's hoping today is a better day! 
How many rabbits do you have altogether?


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## Miss mouse (Jun 21, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> You're welcome!
> Rabbits are really strange and when you raise them things can/will go wrong and there will be issues...some are completely unexplainable... but it makes the good times a lot more fun
> Yesterday was a terrible day in my rabbitry but here's hoping today is a better day!
> How many rabbits do you have altogether?


I'm so sorry you had a terrible day.
We are starting from scratch right now so just the 3 and I'm supposed to be picking up a male in the next couple weeks but that breeder stopped communicating so we'll see.
We're moving to an acreage in the next couple weeks as well so once the rabbit house is built and everyone is settled I'll start breeding more


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## Bunnylady (Jun 21, 2019)

I agree with @AmberLops , your doe's color is Tort (Tortoise, Tortoiseshell). Crossing a Fawn to a Black or Blue might not result in Torts in the first generation, but it gets all the right genes in the pool; it is possible for a purebred Flemish to be a Tort.

In some ways, I think this breeder pulled a P. T. Barnum on the OP ("there's a sucker born every minute"). You cannot guarantee the size of the litter, or even the_ arrival_ of a litter, on a bred doe, especially if the animal will be travelling much of a distance to its new home. I have seen does abort litters from stress, particularly travel stress (when you have fetuses lying on the floor, there's little doubt about what happened with that pregnancy). An animal that has been out of production for a while will often have a smaller litter when she gets put back on line, and a lot of does tend to taper down to infertility by age 4 - a 2-year-old could be starting that downward trend. Now, if the breeder wasn't basing the price on the guaranteed production, and this was all the buyer justifying paying a price that they otherwise wouldn't on an open doe, well, sorry, but that's on you, @Miss mouse  All things considered, the small size of the litter doesn't surprise me, but once again, as @AmberLops said, the fur at birth thing is something that  sometimes appears in Netherland Dwarfs and Dwarf crosses, but I haven't heard of it happening in Giant breeds. Intriguing, to say the least.

Your BF's construction skills are impressive! But as you have seen, just having an enclosed space at one end of a hutch/run isn't enough, if you are going to breed. A wild doe digs a burrow that is only a little larger than she is to give birth in, which helps to keep her surprisingly mobile offspring together. This is why we use a nest box that is just a little bit longer, wider, and higher than the doe. If I have a doe that gives birth outside of the box, I put whatever nesting material she used in the box and put the babies in there. I then put the box in whatever corner the nest was in. It's usually pretty important to keep the babies together; that both of the kits survived is surprising, considering that one apparently missed so many meals. The size difference, and the size of the larger kit, are no surprise to me, given the circumstances. Apparently, does only produce a certain amount of milk, regardless of the litter size; litters as a whole seem to gain about the same amount of weight, whether there are many or just a few kits. Individual kits from numerically large litters grow slower than those from litters of just a few; one of the hazards of only a couple of kits in a litter is that they can grow_ too _fast, and wind up with deformed bones and/or digestive issues.

Welcome to the world of rabbit keeping! Sounds like you are well on your way to understanding why I say my rabbits' slogan is, "how can we drive her crazy today?!"


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## Miss mouse (Jun 21, 2019)

Here's some more cuteness


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## AmberLops (Jun 21, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> I agree with @AmberLops , your doe's color is Tort (Tortoise, Tortoiseshell). Crossing a Fawn to a Black or Blue might not result in Torts in the first generation, but it gets all the right genes in the pool; it is possible for a purebred Flemish to be a Tort.
> 
> In some ways, I think this breeder pulled a P. T. Barnum on the OP ("there's a sucker born every minute"). You cannot guarantee the size of the litter, or even the_ arrival_ of a litter, on a bred doe, especially if the animal will be travelling much of a distance to its new home. I have seen does abort litters from stress, particularly travel stress (when you have fetuses lying on the floor, there's little doubt about what happened with that pregnancy). An animal that has been out of production for a while will often have a smaller litter when she gets put back on line, and a lot of does tend to taper down to infertility by age 4 - a 2-year-old could be starting that downward trend. Now, if the breeder wasn't basing the price on the guaranteed production, and this was all the buyer justifying paying a price that they otherwise wouldn't on an open doe, well, sorry, but that's on you, @Miss mouse  All things considered, the small size of the litter doesn't surprise me, but once again, as @AmberLops said, the fur at birth thing is something that  sometimes appears in Netherland Dwarfs and Dwarf crosses, but I haven't heard of it happening in Giant breeds. Intriguing, to say the least.
> 
> ...


Ha ha I love your slogan!!  It's right on the money


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## AmberLops (Jun 21, 2019)

I talked to a friend of mine who's been breeding rabbits forever and I told her about your situation. She said that kits born 3-4 days past their due date will be born with fur...so that makes sense


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## Miss mouse (Jun 21, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> I talked to a friend of mine who's been breeding rabbits forever and I told her about your situation. She said that kits born 3-4 days past their due date will be born with fur...so that makes sense


Awesome! Thank you so much


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## AmberLops (Jun 21, 2019)

Miss mouse said:


> Awesome! Thank you so much


You're welcome!!


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## rainsinc (Jun 26, 2019)

Miss mouse said:


> Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
> Please share your opinion about any of the events
> Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
> Story:
> ...





Miss mouse said:


> Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
> Please share your opinion about any of the events
> Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
> Story:
> ...





Miss mouse said:


> Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
> Please share your opinion about any of the events
> Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
> Story:
> ...





Miss mouse said:


> Okay so this is a long story with lots of weirdness
> Please share your opinion about any of the events
> Back ground: my boyfriend has raised meat rabbits his whole life and knows his stuff but this experience has left him confused at every turn. I only ever had 2 pet rabbits
> Story:
> ...



We have Giant Chinchillas and New Zealand crosses.  We are NOT experts, but we have read somewhere that rabbits can be bred again even if they are pregnant.  It may be that she got bred and a short time later got bred agin.  This might explain why she was "early" and why one kit was quite a bit bigger than the other.  It could also address some of the confusion and other abnormal behaviors. One of our does did the 2 nests thing, one that she paid more attention to.  My thought was maybe she didn't have as much milk as she should and thinned out the ones to receive.  There was not a specific bunny that received.   We also have goats-One of our does had a kid one morning and had another 24 hours later.  She never accepted the second.  We had to put her in the milk stand and force her to allow him to nurse.  She threw a fit!!  Our conclusion would be to give her another chance or two to adjust.  Sounds like the original breeder did not watch her very well and stress probably contributed, which is not the rabbits fault.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 27, 2019)

DH and I raised rabbits successfully for 35 years semi-commercially, and for breeding stock.  We had over 100 "holes" in our rabbit barn.  DH showed his rabbits, and we sold meat to stores and individual buyers.  Since you are starting out, here is some advice I offer you based on what I learned in our 35 years of breeding, showing, raising, and selling rabbits.  I offer it in the hope that you will avoid some of the mistakes that we made in the beginning.
 
First, please do *not go back to that breeder* for any more rabbits, either does or bucks.  Here are several reasons why:

1.     Your doe may or may not be 20 lbs. since you haven't been able to weigh her, but she does not look that large.  Also, although the pictures don't show her body structure, she doesn't have the "coffin" shaped Flemish Giant head.  She is probably a cross bred doe, from the shape of her head I would guess a standard meat breed.  Since he sold her as a Flemish Giant he lied to you.  You can't trust him to sell you anything truthfully.

2.     A *2 year old doe* *is* _*not worth as much*_ as a 6 month or 12 month old doe.  6 months to 18 months is the prime breeding life in a rabbit doe.  If you wait to breed her until she is 12 months or more, she will never make a good breeder, and after 2 years she will be too old if she has not been in a strict breeding rotation.  By 2 years old even in a strict breeding rotation her breeding life is moving to the downside and she will have fewer pregnancies and fewer kits per pregnancy until she is 3 at which point she will be at the end of her productive (breeding) life.  Rabbits usually don't breed after 4 years old and certainly will not produce the bunnies you want as a meat producer for what it will cost to feed her.   I won't say you paid too much since I don't know the prices in Alberta, Canada, but since you say you paid a "higher price" for a doe that was supposed to produce 14-16 kits, you probably got taken.  I will definitely say you got taken after reading that the doe was 2 years or more old.  2 years old is when I started deciding whether a doe is good enough and productive enough to keep for another year, or if she should be culled from my barn.

3.      2 years old is when I sold bred does *half price *to 4-H and FFA kids so they would have a meat pen litter for the Fair.  Those kids wanted cheap rabbits for a litter.  I bred those does to our champion bucks, and DH would help them choose their meat pens and any bunnies they wanted to keep for future breeders.  If buyers asked me to, I would also include an older 18-24 months bred doe cheaply when someone wanted to buy a trio.  That way they would get a bred doe to produce a litter of unrelated bunnies, 2 junior does and a junior buck to which to breed the bred doe back.  The older doe's unrelated litter could be sorted and kept for meat and breeding stock.  I usually suggested keeping the best buck and doe from the litter.

4.     Paying a higher price for a doe based on a guarantee she would have 14-16 kits was wrong.  That breeder was giving you a bunch of garbage.     He *could not guarantee* how many bunnies she would have even if he palpated and counted the number of fetuses.  Even then you often miss some, or count rabbit raisins as babies.  LOL  Also moving a pregnant doe often causes them to re-absorb the fetuses into their system.  Yes, rabbits *can* do that.  A large infestation of rats in the barn, raccoons or possums or a predator attack can cause does to re-absorb as well.

5.      Since the doe never had more than 8-10 bunnies as a young doe, at the age of 2 years old her litter size would start decreasing.  She also will start missing conception as well.  Did the breeder show you his breeding and production records on that doe?  A*lways ask to see the production records* if you are paying for a "proven or guaranteed breeder".  After a bad experience with a supposedly good breed, personally, I only like to buy "virgin" does and bucks to avoid vent disease which is a form of rabbit syphilis.

6.       lf the doe was in a substandard size cage (as it sounds like) he was a bad breeder and you *never* want to buy from someone like that.  Even if you feel sorry for the animal - walk away.  Once you have your rabbitry set up you take a chance on bringing in disease from a breeder like that.

7.      If you go back to that breeder for another rabbit, you run the risk of getting another cross bred rabbit being sold as a purebred.  The kits from the cross breed are worth less, even if you are only going to breed for meat.  One normal size kit and one dwarf or mini size kit in this litter may mean that she has some dwarf breeds in her from her sire.  (The Tort color is very common in Holland Lops.)  When breeding for meat, you want all the kits to be similar in size at birth, grow at similar rates, and at 8 weeks (slaughter time) weigh about 4-5 lbs. each. You don't want assorted sizes and weights in a litter.  

8.      Flemish Giants do not make great meat production breeds.  The grow a lot bigger, but their bones are much bigger and you cannot eat the bones.  If you examine pictures of good Flemish Giants (according to the standard) you will see that their bodies are not as well shaped for meat production as the standard meat breeds.  Some people like to cross Flemish Giants with meat breeds to get a larger meat bunny but it is not necessary.  If you stick with one of the standard meat breeds, you will produce more meat in ratio lb. per lb. meat to feed.  After years of breeding New Zealands, we found that the slightly smaller Californians will actually produce the same amount of meat a week earlier.  9 weeks for NZs and 8 weeks for Cals.

9.      *When breeding for meat, the goal should always be to produce the most amount of meat in the least amount of time for the least amount of feed cost.*

The cage your boyfriend built is very nice, but what are the over all dimensions?  It sounds like the entire cage space is 24" x 72" but divided into 3  24" x 24" cages.  Those sizes are fine for the dwarf and mini breeds, but way too small for standard meat breeds or the giant breeds.   I used 24" x 24" cages as grower cages ( 1 bunny per cage) when we separated our 8 week old bunnies into fryers (culls) and show stock.  At 12-16 weeks we culled our growers again and at that time any keepers (future breeders/show stock) went into 30" x 36" cages. 

The minimum size cage required for a standard meat production breed 12 lb. doe - New Zealand, Calfornian, Satin, etc. -  is 30"d x 36"w x 18"h.  A minimum standard meat breed buck cage is 30"d x 30"w x 18"h.  I use 30" x36" x 18"h cages for both bucks and does since that way I can rearrange my does and bucks without a problem.  I also have gone over to all Babysaver cages since it saves litters when a doe doesn't use her nest box.  "Babysaver" cages have the bottom 6" of the walls 1/2" x 1" wire so the kits cannot wiggle to the sides and fall out of the cage.  You can save the kits if you find them in the am. 

*You must use a nest box when you breed rabbits*.  The mother rabbit will not gather up her kits like a cat or dog.  Kits that are born "on the wire" or accidently get out of the nest will just crawl around until they die.  Sometimes you will find a kit that has gotten out of the box because it was nursing and the mama was disturbed and jumped out of the nest with the kit hanging onto the teat.  That is what the front lip on the nest box hopefully will do - knock the baby off and back into the box.  

If the doe decides to make a nest on the floor of the cage instead of in the box, you need to constantly transfer the nest materials and fur from where she puts them on the floor of the cage back into the nest box.  Sometimes new moms will not recognize the nest box for what it is, or may just prefer another place in her cage.   Try moving the nest box to the spot where she insists on building her nest.  Once I accidently put the nest box in the spot where the doe had her potty spot.  Rabbits will potty in the same place in their cage.  Luckily I noticed that the doe had peed and pooped in the nest box.  I cleaned it out and put new nest materials in, put it in another spot in the cage, and she immediately made her nest in the box in its new location.   

The size nest boxes I use for my NZWs and Cals are 12" w x 21" long with the front lip 6" high, rising to the back at 10" high.  I make  my own out of 3/8" plywood reinforced with 1" L brackets.  I do not put a top on them because it upsets some does when they are giving birth if they bump on the roof of the box.  I don't take chances the does will decide not to kindle in their boxes.  They are fickle enough without encouraging problems!   

For a 20lb. Flemish Giant doe with a litter you will need a cage at leas 30" d x 48-60""w x 20"h.  The nest box for this giant breed will need to be proportionately wider, longer, and taller as well.

When you buy more rabbits to breed for meat, I suggest you buy a straight meat breed buck.  You do not want to use a massive buck on your does since you can have kindling problems.  If you decide to use Flemish Giants as your brood does use a meat breed buck to breed them.  I suggest you breed this doe again to a meat breed buck and see what she produces.  If she misses conception a time or two, and has progressively smaller litters, you will know that the breeder sold you a doe he was planning to cull and you were just the unlucky couple that showed up to buy her.

We learn from everything, and this was just an unpleasant and expensive lesson.  Next time you will know better. 

As to the original question about breeding peculiarities -



rainsinc said:


> It may be that she got bred and a short time later got bred agin.



This can definitely happen.  I had a doe give birth to 3 kits a week early.  Since I did not have the next box in yet, they all died.  I immediately tried to breed her back but she attacked the buck so I put her back in her cage thinking to breed her a week later.  I did not bother to put in a nest box since she had kindled early and all kits died.  On her due date she had 5 more kits and again they died - no nest box.  48 hours later I rebred here and 30 days later she had a perfect litter.  Rabbits have 2 uterine horns.  They can conceive a litter in one side and also in the other.  Usually they give birth to both sides at once.  In this case, the doe had conceived probably without the buck falling over so I kept breeding her.  When I finally got a successful breeding I marked it down but the original breeding a week earlier had taken as well.  So when the first set of kits were at term she had that litter which died since there was no nest box.  When the second breeding was at term a week later, she had the second litter.  After that even if it looked like the breeding was not successful I put a box in the cage.



rainsinc said:


> We also have goats-One of our does had a kid one morning and had another 24 hours later.



Again there are 2 uterine horns.  We had a large Suffolk ewe who was enormously pregnant.  She lambed a huge ewe lamb in the afternoon but she was still enormous.  I soaped up and felt around inside and she was empty.  The next day she produced twin lambs, a ewe and a ram, half the size of the first one.  They had to have been in the other horn since I had gone in up to my elbow (she was a BIG ewe) feeling for another lamb and there was nothing there! 
Strange things happen in livestock!       Good luck and enjoy your bunnies.


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