# What's wrong with my 6 month old buckling?



## CapraCurry (Oct 21, 2017)

Alrighty goat folks, I'm at my wits end here and I need some advice. I have no idea what the heck is going on with our buckling. His half brother started getting this way too but has since been sold. These are pictures of him from early September.










And this is what he looks like now:









What happened? Even worse, these photos aren't even showing it at its worst. It varies in size and severity, which is why I'm certain it has to do with his rumen. The only thing that's changed is where they lived. My stock have moved up with me to Gainesville (I'm in college) from Orlando. The goats are primarily grass hay fed, as they were only on about 0.5 acre before and are currently penned in a similar space. The lot isn't particularly lush and they aren't getting into anything super rich and green. In fact, the terrain and grass appears to be fairly identical to what they were on before. He lives with his our herd sire, two Jacob's sheep, and previously his half-brother. Seriously, the only thing that has changed is that we have moved and he lives on different grounds now. We're still in the process of searching for a vet that knows a thing or two about goats. Unfortunately, they seem to be few and far in between here in Florida. We've tried worming, treating for cocci, free choice baking soda, Durvet bloat treatment, massages, the works. He's eating exactly the same diet at the exact same amounts! The hay we got in Orlando is the same stuff up here in Gainesville. The SAME exact thing started happening to his half brother, but his was purchased right when we began to notice (Don't worry, we let the buyers know and everything and be fine since leaving). He's definitely not fat, I can feel his little ribs and hip bones just fine. His father hasn't been affected by this. He eats and stays on his feet, but I think he's feeling discomfort because he doesn't seem to be as happy and springy as he used to be. Has any one here had this occur to them? I'm really desperate for some answers here..


----------



## Latestarter (Oct 22, 2017)

My first thought would be a severe worm load. Have you had a fecal count done? Before and after worming? If you don't do a fecal before the worming, you have no idea what you're trying to kill or if there's even a worm issue. If you don't re-check with a fecal after the worming, there's no way to know if it worked or not. The worms you're trying to kill may have adapted to the wormer you're using, in which case it will be worthless and you'll need to switch to a different wormer. Many wormers need to be used at a heavier dose for goats as they have such a fast metabolism. Many folks not following the prescribed protocol end up worsening the worm problem as they survive the attempt and become stronger because of it. Which is why many dewormers no longer work.

@Goat Whisperer @frustratedearthmother @Fullhousefarm @ragdollcatlady Or any of the many others...


----------



## babsbag (Oct 22, 2017)

I agree with the worming.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 22, 2017)

Agree with fecal analysis also when deworming- 
follow up is importamt as most dewormers only kill 4th stage
If using safegaurd- it is a 3 day course with a much higher dose than is onbottle

I noticed you have him with sheep- this could be part of your problem

Goats need goat minerals. Copper is an absolute necessity for goats. Sheep cannot really have copper.

I would give this little guy a copper bolus asap if it were my goat. Finding a way to give minerals needs to be priority.
I would also be giving him some feed. Make sure  it has ammonium chloride in the feed (skip all baking soda) and about 1 cup am and 1 cup pm... then reduce to about a cup a day. Keeping the Calcium Phosphorus ratio 2:1 up to 4:1

If he were mine I would be giving a B complex injection as well. 

You did not mention if he is rutting hard or not. Bucks in heavy rut can lose a lot of weight- but I suspect there is more going on with this guy.
I hope you can find a good goat vet soon.


----------



## ragdollcatlady (Oct 22, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Goats need goat minerals. Copper is an absolute necessity for goats. Sheep cannot really have copper.
> 
> I would give this little guy a copper bolus asap if it were my goat. Finding a way to give minerals needs to be priority.



The above advice from Southern and the fecal and deworming already mentioned is where I would start.

 I have one young buck that is too lean for my liking despite doing all of our usual care, blood tests came back clean for CAE, CL, and Johnnes, so we will also be doing dome detective work to figure out why and get him growing like he should.


----------



## CapraCurry (Oct 22, 2017)

Hey guys, thanks for all of the responses. He and his father were bolus'd at the beginning of the month and his mucous membranes, per FAMACHA, are nice a bright healthy pink, the darkest color on the card. Because he and his father live with sheep, they have access to a stock block with no copper, and then are fed a goat feed with copper that is top dressed with 1/4 oz of Manna Pro Goat Mineral (as per the bags instructions since I can't feed free choice in the current set up). The hay here has very very little copper. The ammonium chloride, I need advice on guys. Both boys manage to sift through most of the stuff when I feed (no idea how since it's powder), the best success I've had is adding it to their water, and even then I'm afraid they're not drinking as much cause of the taste! Anyways, where I live now has a much higher deer population, could the parasites, if they are there, be coming from them? I do have access to a microscope via Uni that's always available (even weekends!) so I suppose I could go out and try to do a fecal slide today. He's not rutting at all, he's showing 0 signs of buckish-ness. Sure I've seen him pee on himself maybe one or twice, but as far as he knows he's still a cuddly little baby. Will follow up with fecal results but you'll have to bear with me, I'm still not the greatest at reading them and identifying which worm eggs are what. @Southern by choice, we HAVE been worming with Safeguard, but at the dosage rate on the bottle, perhaps that's why we haven't seen any change.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 22, 2017)

The dosage is really for cattle- even though it says goats. :/
One dose and the dosage there will do nothing.

I would start with a fecal- if you can try to do the McMasters 
I have a how to in an article here on BYH- just go under articles- goats and you will see 3 different ones- the McMasters is 2 parts because I can only load 10 pics in a post :/

I would look at your goat feed- if it has ac in it then you don't need to have it out free choice however baking soda renders the ac useless.

Is he from tested stock? Cae, CL, Johnes?

The pics from early September are the top two right?
In those pics he was definitely dangerously thin. The pics after that- hmmmm... he may just actually be developing some rumin and growing.

How much does he weigh? how old was he in the first pics?


----------



## CapraCurry (Oct 22, 2017)

He is from tested stock, both his mother and father were tested from blood draws I did myself haha. As far as weight, I honestly couldn't tell you, we used to have a dairy goat weigh tape but it was super inaccurate with the Niggie's. Where they lived before, we had access to a livestock scale but not currently. In the first pics he was around 5 1/2 months, today he is almost 7 months. I didn't think that the way he looked was considered dangerously thin  He was examined by our vet in Orlando so he could get a health cert and be transported here. She said he was looking great. I'll take a look at the feed tag and see how much AC's in it. I *think* the livestock unit at school has McMasters slides but I'm not sure. Will give your articles a read to learn how to do it. After I do the fecal I'll post the results here to see whether or not I should try worming him again.


----------



## ragdollcatlady (Oct 22, 2017)

For the weight... he looks small enough to pick up. Grab a friend to see the numbers and a human scale. Get your own weight. Pick up the goat kid, hop back on the scale, have your buddy read the numbers, then just subtract your weight from the combined weight to get an idea how much your kid weighs. Not the best, but far better than not having any weight for drug dosing. I need 2 people to weigh this way since I cant see the numbers with a baby goat in my arms.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 23, 2017)

Some years back a friend of ours had these bucklings that all had basketball bellies. However they were not thin, they were in good condition but the basketball bellies were so tight- all the time. They had baking soda free choice, hay , and a little feed.
Ran fecal after fecal- there were a few parasites but nothing major- long story short- it wasn't cocci, wasn't parasites but this continued on and on. Eventually one died, unfortunately no necropsy was done. The other two stayed that way... not sure what happened to them... anyway it was bizarre. It was only on the bucklings though - they were all wethered. No doelings had the issue. 

As far as the pics go and the condition of the kid. It will not help you nor anyone else to skip lightly over this- so I am not being a jerk here but far too many people are new to goats and if no one tells them and everyone just plays nicey nicey then it helps no one.
The first pics- for a HC they are only looking at certain criteria- if that criteria is met then that is all that matters. In a nutshell- yes, he was dangerously thin. 
Nigerian dwarfs are rather rounder and plumper, especially kids. When you look at the old pics and the newer you still have the same issue.
The tail head is prominent, you can clearly see the hollowing as well as the thurls and pins.
On the first pic which it is a bit better to see look at the transverse process. It is very pronounced.
There are no fat reserves, and no muscling- not on his neck or rear legs in both sets of pics.

I wonder if he is severely lacking cobalt. There is a thread on here by FergusonK and the condition of some goats she bought that were  in really rough shape- she did everything then gave cobalt. Giving cobalt is tricky. I will say Manna pro goat minerals has Cobalt listed in the ingredients but notice it has such an insignificant amount there are no values for it. Sweetlix is far better for this. 

I am leaning more toward looking at your forage and your hay. If it is depleted of nutrients than it is doing you no good. I would look for really good tested hay, alfalfa mixed hay may really help.  

I have included some pics to help you see what I mean as far as weight and body condition-
I want to see your boy get in a good place- just like you do. I love these guys, and I am very partial to bucklings 

This is a diagram of the back bone
.

 

Another view pic is dorked up though but you get the point




This is one of our bucklings- at 5 months


 

Here he is at 7 months- he is slightly underweight because he is in full blown rut! 


 



 
even with him losing a bit of weight you can still see he is well muscled- notice the neck, hips, rear  


 

I currently have a 7 month old buck,  (not a nigerian) that is so out of his mind in rut and will not eat he IS dangerously thin. Fortunately almost all the does are bred now, and once that happens he will calm down and eat again. Truly this was the first time that has ever happened to us with bucklings- for some reason this group of bucklings have just been crazy in rut- not personality wise- just not wanting to eat. UGH

So I feel your exasperation. Sometimes you want to just go


----------



## Fullhousefarm (Oct 23, 2017)

Chiming in late here in Florida.

UF large animal hospital is great with goats and actually not that $$ for most stuff since it's a teaching clinic. I'd see if they can do a fecal even if you do your own since you are new to it. We also don't use safeguard in FL. I'd confirm with a fecal first- but the breeder I know in Gainesville- who has mostly dirt lot- uses something stronger too.

Dr Sonday is just south of Gainesville but may travel that far. She is excellent with goats as well- I know several great breeders who use her. If she doesn't go that far she might know someone who does. 

A possible idea too- last summer we had a doeling who just wouldn't put on weight. She struggled with worms and coccidian more than the others but was always treated promptly. We ended up taking the advice of another breeder and put her and a non-pushy (and not fat!) buddy her age in a 12x12 pen with high protein hay 24/7, more grain with access all night, and of coarse shelter, shade and water. It really worked. She was able to eat more and not run all of the energy off. It also put her with no pasture/grass so it helped her not be exposed to as many parasites. We'd of coarse let her out to run around here and there and play- just much more limited. She's totally caught up and didn't have any issues this summer at all. Something to think about if he just won't put on weight.


----------



## JoyfulGoats (Oct 25, 2017)

I didn’t read all the comments, but your goat now looks perfectly fine. In the before picture he was way too thin. Please don’t keep giving dewormers or medications without a fecal test, otherwise you can create parasite resistance. All goats have parasites, you just don’t want more than a normal amount. It’s normal that his stomach varies in size. Goats have a rumen to digest their food, and it increases in size with gases because it ferments. This is normal and good. A small stomach means that the goat is not digesting it’s food well. Of course, you don’t want your goat to be bloated, but if they are, they won’t act the same. They will be uncomfortable. If you see your goat ruminating (they are chewing the food they regurgitated), they aren’t bloated. Since your goat is this way since a long time, he isn’t bloated (or he would be dead by now), and just has a healthy rumen.





These are my goats. They are Nigerian Dwarfs and the golden and white ones are the same age as yours. They aren’t bloated, they just have healthy rumens. In the morning, their stomach is pretty flat, and gets bigger as they est their hay.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 25, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> but your goat now looks perfectly fine


No, he does not- this is why the attachments were added. Although I agree he may be finally just developing a rumin , he is still way too thin... the attachments were given to help the new goat owner understand... if you take a look around the tail head you will see it is completely hollow still, the hip bones are still protruding as well... no  muscling or fat 
Now look at your own- your goats have adequate fleshing around the hip bones, tail head, rear legs, and neck- this lil guy does not.
This is the problem with not looking at the whole goat and understanding BCS. (Body Condition Score)



JoyfulGoats said:


> Please don’t keep giving dewormers or medications without a fecal test, otherwise you can create parasite resistance.


Absolutely! Analysis first! 

BTW your goats look great!


----------



## JoyfulGoats (Oct 25, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> No, he does not- this is why the attachments were added. Although I agree he may be finally just developing a rumin , he is still way too thin... the attachments were given to help the new goat owner understand... if you take a look around the tail head you will see it is completely hollow still, the hip bones are still protruding as well... no  muscling or fat
> Now look at your own- your goats have adequate fleshing around the hip bones, tail head, rear legs, and neck- this lil guy does not.
> This is the problem with not looking at the whole goat and understanding BCS. (Body Condition Score)
> 
> ...



Yes, sorry. I was in a hurry to reply, that I was focusing just on the rumen aspect. I meant that the fact that his rumen is larger than is normal. I agree, her buckling is still quite thin. He is getting better though!

Thank you about my goats


----------



## AlaynaMayGoatLady (Oct 27, 2017)

I live between Bronson and Williston, about 30 minutes from Gainesville, so at least I have some local knowledge, though I'm not nearly as experienced as quite a few others on this forum.  Our vet is Dr. Teri Harty, but she lives 2 hours away and usually helps me diagnose stuff over the phone.  She could probably give recommendations for a good goat vet around here.
     Anyway...  I agree so far with everything said: body condition, developing rumen, need for fecal, adequate worming, and so forth.  I try to avoid using chemical wormers on my goats, but do need to worm 1-3 times per year.  Because of the worms' ability to build resistance, I think it is better to slightly overdose than underdose them when it is necessary to use wormer.  I do not intentionally overdose, but if I need to round the dosage to the nearest weight increment, I round up.  Cydectin pour-on, given orally, has worked okay (@ 1cc per 100lbs, I think).  I usually use Ivermectin paste, though.  SafeGuard has _not worked well at all_ for my goats down here, even when I did way over the recommended dosage for several days in a row.  (Works great on my puppies though - go figure.)

     Does he have access to kelp?  Kelp contains a lot of really important minerals in a safe, easily assimilated form.  A fellow goat-keeper a few miles away from us is a dealer for New Country Organics, and if you wanted some kelp, I could probably get in touch with her before she places her next order and get you a bag.  Kelp will definitely not hurt your goats, and may help them a lot.  It is safe for the sheep too.
     I feed all our stock animals (cows, horses, goats) New Country Organics kelp based goat minerals and it has made a world of difference.  As long as it is available, I do not plan to ever switch to anything else.  The animals were on it for about a year before they really began to improve, and they still have a ways to go, but it is worth it.  You would have to top dress their feed because of the sheep, but even sheep need some copper (despite the usual consensus against it).  Don't have time to go into it now, but some friends in Lake City (Shepherd's Hill Farm) have lots of sheep and feed them some copper.  Their farm is amazing to visit; well worth the drive!

     Apple cider vinegar (preferably raw, unfiltered, with the mother) is really good for goats and may help him.  

     Feeding alfalfa or alfalfa mix may also be good to put weight on him.  We get our alfalfa from Larsen Farms (at junction of 27 alt and 326.)  It is good quality and price, but would be a bit of a drive for you, depending which side of Gainesville you are on.  I know some folks don't like feeding bucks alfalfa...  All I can say is that mine have not had issues, but then, I haven't usually kept bucks for very long, so you would need to get a more experienced opinion on that.  I think feeding the kelp helps because it is high in iodine.

     I hope this helps!


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 27, 2017)

AlaynaMayGoatLady said:


> Cydectin pour-on, given orally, has worked okay



There are many products used on goats that are considered extra label- recommended by veterinarians that are permissible however there are some products or uses that are not... the following info can be found at the link provided in the text below.

ADDITIONAL NOTE ON CYDECTIN: For a short period, it was recommended to administer Cydectin (moxidectin) by injection. However, new information suggests that the oral route is preferred. If the cattle injectable is used, FARAD recommends a 120-130 day meat withdrawal time. *NOTE that the cattle pour-on formulation should NOT be administered to goats orally *– *this is not permissible under extra-label use law.* ALWAYS use the sheep oral drench. Check http://www.acsrpc.org/ website for more information on drug choice and drug resistance.


----------



## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 30, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> There are many products used on goats that are considered extra label- recommended by veterinarians that are permissible however there are some products or uses that are not... the following info can be found at the link provided in the text below.
> 
> ADDITIONAL NOTE ON CYDECTIN: For a short period, it was recommended to administer Cydectin (moxidectin) by injection. However, new information suggests that the oral route is preferred. If the cattle injectable is used, FARAD recommends a 120-130 day meat withdrawal time. *NOTE that the cattle pour-on formulation should NOT be administered to goats orally *– *this is not permissible under extra-label use law.* ALWAYS use the sheep oral drench. Check http://www.acsrpc.org/ website for more information on drug choice and drug resistance.



Oops... Any particular reason?


----------



## AlaynaMayGoatLady (Nov 2, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> ADDITIONAL NOTE ON CYDECTIN: For a short period, it was recommended to administer Cydectin (moxidectin) by injection. However, new information suggests that the oral route is preferred. If the cattle injectable is used, FARAD recommends a 120-130 day meat withdrawal time. *NOTE that the cattle pour-on formulation should NOT be administered to goats orally *– *this is not permissible under extra-label use law.* ALWAYS use the sheep oral drench. Check http://www.acsrpc.org/ website for more information on drug choice and drug resistance.



OOPS...  Thank you for telling me.  Last I heard, everyone was still fine with using it.  I believe mine is the cattle pour-on version.  I got it from a neighbor (along with a few other things) when I bought his herd of 10 goats a couple years ago.  I sold the goats, a few at a time, but still have the supplies.  He was worming them with it _every month_.  No Famacha chart comparisons or anything...  I'm not sure who told him to do that, but I think that is what he took away from having a specialist from University of FL come out to his property.


----------

