# The Price You Pay for Removing a Pup Prematurely from it's Mother and Litter



## BrendaMNgri (Jan 24, 2017)

In my state of Nevada, it is against the law to remove pups before 8 weeks of age from their mother and litter.  The chart below will show you several other states where it is also considered a crime.  Mine stay here till 12 weeks of age, with occasional exceptions I have made over the years of allowing them to leave a bit earlier but never, ever before 8 weeks.  It's why my pups are solid, well balanced, mature and show exceptional guarding ability - they are able to stay with their dam longer and model off of her, their sire, their litter mates, and most importantly, my pack.  Priceless training you can't replicate yourself as a human, less stressful on pup and dam and litter mates, and simply put the right thing to do.

The common theme in these links below?  Stay away from *any and all* breeders trying to push off pups to buyers before 8 weeks.  No ethical, responsible breeder does this, and in many states it's against the law.

Snowdog Guru

Table of State Laws

The Labrador Site

Problems Associated with Too Early Removal


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## samssimonsays (Jan 24, 2017)

I agree and have noticed that 12 weeks seems to be healthier for the larger breeds of any kind for their psych and 9 seems to be reasonable for the smaller breeds (from my few years of experience). But I also made this stance with my rabbits as well. We have purchased from reputable folks multiple times and been allowed per our puppies temperament and personality to bring them home the day before 8 weeks but that was as early as possible and only because she was a very stable, well socialized pup and we could have an entire weekend with her (mother's day weekend) Not all of the pups were allowed to leave before the 9 week mark as they were more unsure and needed more guidance  by the breeder. She has been known to keep some unlisted or hold them back until 12 weeks to make sure they are confident dogs placed with the ideal home for them. 

We kept all of our litter (an oops cross between our Collie and Saint Bernard/Great Pyrenees yet showing to be some of the easiest puppies and dogs any of the families have ever owned)  until no younger than 8 weeks, one went the day of (She was extremely outgoing and sassy), one flew out a few days later (he was fearless and was an absolute ham), then most stayed until 9-10 weeks (Ones who needed a bit more time to find the "right" fit for homes for) and a few stayed until 12 weeks old. Of those puppies, not one was more stressed than the other but I will say that all the pups were very well socialized and from very loving and outgoing parents, raised in the house with the family and extremely eager to meet new people and animals. We had also started them off with a lot of basic puppy manners and all knew how to sit, lay down, stay and shake before the age of 7 weeks old. Also potty trained at 6 weeks old for the most part. 

There is a huge role that the "pack" no matter the size of the one you own plays in the raising of the pups, humans included, IMO. If you are not willing to take the time to ensure the pups are stable and care about their placements then you really shouldn't be raising them, also IMHO. I dealt with this with a breeder I wanted to STUD my dog to, not even purchase. The well being of the animals is not her first priority when she only wanted to breed Merle to Merle for the money they bring in.... I have many negative things to say on THAT subject all together but will refrain.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 24, 2017)

Absolutely.
I like 12 weeks or older. We don't even start noise testing til 10 weeks so the earliest is 12. 16 is great as well. Between 12-16 I try to avoid.
On the flip side for some it may be better for the pups to go at 8-9 weeks especially when the breeder knows nothing about evaluating, working with, or truly raising LGD's.
I see this often. It ticks me off. 

"Breeders" give a whole line of fluff about how they keep the dogs longer and it is better etc yet do NOTHING with the dogs and more often then not have the dogs in an irresponsible environment that is often only promoting bad behavior that now has to be undone by the new owner.
Breeders that simply leave then with parent stock and never separate. Then the dog is sold and is a basket case, or wrong dog for the job because the true nature of the dog was not seen. 

Pups learn great things within the pack however every pup must have time outside of the pack and with other dogs. 
The dam of a litter is not correcting her baby puppy but with defend her pup. Those pups are her priority. Whereas many that do not raise or work with these dogs do not understand why this is important for pups to have away time from mom. They learn livestock etiquette from livestock, yet if momma is there and a goat or sheep tries to tap, give warning etc momma will not usually tolerate that and that is what the dogs need. 

I could go on... and on... and on....


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## NH homesteader (Jan 24, 2017)

I don't have a LGD but I do have a crazy dog that is mildly neurotic from the breeder not doing their job and selling puppies too soon. She's a good and sweet dog with serious separation anxiety and no impulse control. She's come a long way but it's been so much work!


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## samssimonsays (Jan 24, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> The dam of a litter is not correcting her baby puppy but with defend her pup. Those pups are her priority. Whereas many that do not raise or work with these dogs do not understand why this is important for pups to have away time from mom. They learn livestock etiquette from livestock, yet if momma is there and a goat or sheep tries to tap, give warning etc momma will not usually tolerate that and that is what the dogs need.



We had this issue with the daddy... Maybe it was the LGD in him? Our collie, the mom, was totally done babying her little "he!!ians" by 6 weeks old  If they barked at the cat, a paw to the back of the head to stop them, if one played too rough with the other she'd push them down at the shoulder, bark at her goats? Oh heavens no!   She would tumble them down. But Boy oh boy, if anything made one of those pups make a peep of any kind, daddy was right there to inspect. Our momma had the tough love approach while the daddy was all about the kids it seemed. Maybe it was the difference between the breeds but you could totally see the difference in the attitudes when mom vs dad was around. Pups were wild and unruly with dad and very conservative and respectful with mom.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 24, 2017)

samssimonsays said:


> We had this issue with the daddy... Maybe it was the LGD in him? Our collie, the mom, was totally done babying her little "he!!ians" by 6 weeks old  If they barked at the cat, a paw to the back of the head to stop them, if one played too rough with the other she'd push them down at the shoulder, bark at her goats? Oh heavens no!   She would tumble them down. But Boy oh boy, if anything made one of those pups make a peep of any kind, daddy was right there to inspect. Our momma had the tough love approach while the daddy was all about the kids it seemed. Maybe it was the difference between the breeds but you could totally see the difference in the attitudes when mom vs dad was around. Pups were wild and unruly with dad and very conservative and respectful with mom.



Keep in mind though these pups were not LGD breeds and the interaction is different from dogs raised in the field with livestock full time. 
Applying the evaluation techniques to non LGD dogs is not beneficial, they are unique to lgd's. 
The lgd breeds for the most part are primitive and respond differently.



NH homesteader said:


> I don't have a LGD but I do have a crazy dog that is mildly neurotic from the breeder not doing their job and selling puppies too soon. She's a good and sweet dog with serious separation anxiety and no impulse control. She's come a long way but it's been so much work!


Some of that could be plain and simple genetics too.


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## NH homesteader (Jan 24, 2017)

Some yes, and some of it is the breed. But I know her parents and neither of them are neurotic like her.


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## samssimonsays (Jan 24, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Keep in mind though these pups were not LGD breeds and the interaction is different from dogs raised in the field with livestock full time.
> Applying the evaluation techniques to non LGD dogs is not beneficial, they are unique to lgd's.
> The lgd breeds for the most part are primitive and respond differently.
> 
> ...


 No, they are not evaluated the same but the principle of not letting the pups leave before 8 weeks is the same for all breeds. And people who are just selling pups and not taking into account their personalities before placing no matter the breed have no business in raising puppies at all.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 24, 2017)

Completely agree. Some states it is six weeks - I think that is just wrong!


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## BrendaMNgri (Feb 4, 2017)

People never cease to shock me and disgust me.  Not naming name here but I will wager many of you know who she is.  An author/rancher/"LGD Expert"   who recently came out with a book on LGDs (not the one I reviewed on here earlier), is on Facebook posting photos of the two Caucasian Ovcharka pups she just brought over.  Of course she doesn't say what they are (people have to milk it out of her in the thread and she answers later).  But before I read that, I look at the photos and think to myself, "my what is she doing with Jack Russell Terriers"?  Because they are that tiny!  Then I read further down where she says what they are.  WHAT?
Then someone posts something to the tune of this: * "SIX WEEKS sure seems too young to be taking them on a trip like that from their mother". *   WTH?  

The little shred of respect I had for this author/rancher/"LGD expert" just officially left this earth, down the toilet, kaput, gone…bye bye…..

And I can safely guess someone either lied about their ages or bribed someone at Customs in the country they came from to get them: 1. BOTH crammed in a small carrier which looked way too tight and small for two pups! and: 2. Get them papers and on a plane before they were of the right age unless that country does not care (but I kind of doubt it because even Turkey had regulations on that).  I had to wait to the age of 12 weeks for my last Spanish Mastiff import.

Yeah, I won't be buying her books anymore…..sheesh……  Some "expert" she is.


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## dianneS (Feb 27, 2017)

I got my first LGD at around six months old, maybe a little older.  My newest pup is just 18 weeks and I actually feel that is REALLY young (compared to Alex's 6 months).  George, the new puppy, is still so _very_ much a puppy.  I can't imagine taking a LGD puppy at only 8 weeks, let alone LESS than that!

Having George a little younger does have its advantages.  For instance, Alex was big when we brought him home and he was able to rough up my young goats quite a bit, he was also strong enough to break out of just about any pen I put him in that wasn't electrified.  He also killed a few chickens at first.  We went through a lot of growing pains when Alex was in his "teenage" phase, but he turned out to be an AWESOME dog in the long run.  

Not saying I won't have those issues with George, but it is nice that he's small and easy to handle.  I don't have any baby goats this time around and I've got geese to teach him to respect poultry.  He's been zapped by the fence once and will not go anywhere near it now, let alone attempt to challenge his boundaries.

But George is no where near ready to start protecting his herd where as Alex was on duty by the time I got him.  He knew his job where George is still figuring things out and has a lot to learn.  Alex was also 3/4 Karakachan and they tend to mature faster, where George is only 1/2 Karakachan 1/2 Great Pyr so only time will tell as to how he will mature?

But I wouldn't have the slightest idea what to do with an 8 week old or younger LGD pup?  They learn so much from their parents and littermates that can't be taught by humans.  I have a friend who breed lapdogs (Bichons) and even she doesn't let her's go until 10 weeks due to the much needed interactions from mother and the rest of the litter.


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## BrendaMNgri (Feb 27, 2017)

In this era of burgeoning "fake news" it just sickens me that the fake stuff is also permeating the LGD world.  And that someone the supposed calibre of this "LGD expert" woman who brought over those two tiny 6 week old pups, speaks volumes to me about what she really is about.  Like I say in my blog post it is not pretty.  It is an issue of integrity.  In my book she flunks it big.  But then in promoting her latest book, I also had an online ag site that I'd never heard of before, come across my news feed - they were reviewing her latest LGD book with the typical hand licking gushing pap - and in the review they are saying she claims she runs 24 LGDs.  That is not true; she only runs a handful of dogs, she does not run 24 LGDs.  So I guess in the ongoing rabid pursuit of her own self promotion we're stooping to new lows now trying to make out we are more than we are…shame on her.  "Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining…."   There is a ton of this going on; I regularly gain enemies for calling people out on the carpet over lies, exaggerations, stupid stuff - dang if you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps on your own merits, at least don't fake who and what you are just to make a reputation….


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