# "Proper" way to euthanize?



## chubbydog811 (Sep 2, 2011)

I am most likely going to be putting down a kid this morning unless she dies before I get out there. Losing another because of cocci. (this was after treating once already about a month ago, AND being fed a medicated kid feed since she could eat grain. So much for that being useful.)  
I am most likely going to go the way of a gun, but where would be the proper bullet placement? I have never processed a goat before, only helped with sheep. I know sheep you put it where their ears meet in the center of their four head, but how about goats? I've heard of it being done the same way, but I've also heard that you do it from behind instead. 
This doe does have horns if that changes anything, and is about 3 months old.

Can anyone offer any advice? Hopefully she passes on her own, but I want to be prepared just in case. I hate to put a kid down, but I don't feel right making her suffer either :/


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## elevan (Sep 2, 2011)

Back of the head, angled slightly downward so that you're almost "aiming" for the bottom jaw.  Hope that makes sense...pictures are so much better.


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## chubbydog811 (Sep 2, 2011)

Yes, that does make sense. Thank you!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Back of the head, angled slightly downward so that you're almost "aiming" for the bottom jaw.  Hope that makes sense...pictures are so much better.


Ever done it?


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## elevan (Sep 2, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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Watched it (in person)...can't pull the trigger myself...just can't do it


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## chubbydog811 (Sep 2, 2011)

Do you have any advice CM?
She is still alive. I can't pull the trigger either - waiting for my boyfriend to get here


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2011)

I've actually done it, a couple of times.  

The first thing to understand is that a goat's brain is very, very small.  Even in a large goat, you're talking about something about the size of a lemon, surrounded by some pretty thick bone.  In a younger goat, you're talking about something pretty daggone small.

What I'd suggest is to ignore the advice you'll see to use a .22lr and use something *bigger*.  The shot placement elevan described is correct..  Just don't use a .22lr.  Trust me on this..


The rest of the story on how I came to know this is **going** to be disconcerting to some folks..  If you don't want to read something disturbing, just take my advice to use a larger caliber than .22lr, and stop reading.  This means you, Chubbydog811..  Come back and read this at some point later on, after you're done for the day.  Ok?

Seriously..  I mean it.














I used a .22 once, with the shot placement precisely as elevan described..  I suppose maybe we read the same document on the procedure..  In any case, the doe thrashed for a few minutes after the first shot, then lay still..  I took her back leg and began to pull to drag her away, and she yanked it out of my hand and started thrashing again.  **FREAKED OUT**, I put another two rounds into the back of her head..  She thrashed some more, then went still again.  I paced around in the barn for several minutes, then hesitantly took her leg again and, just as before, she jerked it out of my hand and started thrashing.  Eventually, I had to put one square into her forehead.  

I'm not sure why, but for whatever reason, the one in her forehead resulted in a geyser of blood..  It wasn't immediate, either..  She trembled for just a second after the shot, then blood came up out of the wound and rose above the surface by probably 2-3"..  She went limp immediately after that and the geyser trailed off to a trickle.  I'm not mentioning that to be gruesome, but just to point out that -- even after 3 shots and probably 10 minutes of total elapsed time -- she still had **blood pressure**.   Mental faculties?...probably not after the first shot..  Hopefully not, anyway..  But she certainly appeared to have pretty strong blood pressure.

The next one I had to do was a 7wk old kid with a shattered rear femur.   I chose the back of the head again because I could keep him calmer that way.  That time, however, I didn't want to take a chance on another 'Lazarus incident,' so I used a .380 pistol with hollowpoints and fired two shots, pointe blanc, in rapid succession.  He thrashed as well, but when he was done...he was done.  He was mangled and pitiful looking, but he'd moved on and wasn't in pain anymore..  I felt horrible just for having to do it, of course, but I was very much relieved to know that he went quickly.

I'm really sorry if that bothered anyone, but...well...I'd so much rather people *read* about it than have to experience it on account of nobody talking about it.


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## Caprice_Acres (Sep 2, 2011)

Unfortunately, it sounds like the intestinal tract in the doeling is destroyed. If she's stunted or sicky to a point where she won't recover enough to grow to a good size for breeding, IMO putting her down is in her best interest. Too many people try to 'save' their goats by selling to pet homes. Unfortunately, MOST pet goat homes know nothing about them besides that they are cute.  To guarantee they don't suffer, but them down/butcher them.  Just IMO. 

Cocci prevention/treatment requires sulfidimethoxine - like Dimethox or Albon.  Sulmet doesn't work in most places and Corid is a PREVENTATIVE only.  

Treatment with 40% injectible Dimethox (given orally to goats) is 1cc per 5lbs for 5 days. Prevention is 1cc per 5lbs first day and 1cc per 10lbs days 2-5.  Three weeks old I give a TREATMENT doseage. Then every 3 weeks I give prevention until they are 'well grown' - usually around 50lbs. You may want to do longer if your kids are raised with your adults (I bottle raise for the most part, so reinfection is difficult without a source). If you are using Corid, ALWAYS do a treatment dose at 3 weeks with Dimethox/Albon, then 3 weeks later start Corid.  

Corid is given full strength as a liquid concentrate, 6.25 cc per 25lbs for 5 days. Preventative ONLY.  Given every 3 weeks. Safe for goats if used in the PROPER doseages. It will not cause polio under proper useage. 

FEED THROUGH cocci preventions CAN work. However, you must realize that the kids must eat a certain amount of the feed to get the proper doseage of the medication. MOST LIKELY, the kid was eating the grain at 2-3 weeks old but due to size was not able to eat enough to get a full dose. This is why at 3 weeks old an initial TREATMENT is suggested.  

I too put down goats with a .22 aimed at the back of the skull. I've aimed both through the head toward the jaw and also more towards the base of the skull in the medulla area, which  in theory if destroyed would immediately stop all bodily functions like heartbeat etc.  But, I've only put goats down to butcher. When I do so, I immediately cut out the throat so that not only do they bleed out well, but also because JUST IN CASE that bullet didn't kill the goat, the bleed out will kill them in a few seconds.


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## jmsim93 (Sep 2, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I've actually done it, a couple of times.
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> The first thing to understand is that a goat's brain is very, very small.  Even in a large goat, you're talking about something about the size of a lemon, surrounded by some pretty thick bone.  In a younger goat, you're talking about something pretty daggone small.
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That is part of farm life.  No one should think ill of you trying to advise others so that they don't make the same mistake.    Thank you for sharing.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2011)

Caprice_Acres said:
			
		

> Treatment with 40% injectible Dimethox (given orally to goats) is 1cc per 5lbs for 5 days. Prevention is 1cc per 5lbs first day and 1cc per 10lbs days 2-5.


That looks like the oral solution (12.5%...125mg/ml) dose to me.  The 40% is 400mg/ml, so the dosage in ml's is usually about 1/3rd the 12.5% dose..  In other words, 1ml/15lbs on day 1, then 1ml/30lbs..  At least, that's what I'm recalling.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 2, 2011)

The other way to put down is to think of the gun as a stun only. They will fall down immediately upon being shot. Same as if you were brained with a shovel or something.  I take this opportunity to do a quick cut and let them bleed out.   Same effect as the double tap but if you are going to butcher it helps with that process.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 2, 2011)

Sarah: Ask your vet to give you the 960mg Trimethoprim/Sulfa tablets, they work much better for cocci than what most vets prescribe. 1/2 a tablet 2 X's daily. Take the half a tablet and place it in a syringe, put plunger back in syringe and suck in hot water or juice, place finger over the end of the syringe and shake until dissolved. The vet in Ashland said it is the best cocci medication, and has a high concentration of the med, enough to kill off cocci quickly.


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## Caprice_Acres (Sep 2, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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Nope. 12.5% Albon/Dimethox doseage is 3.2cc per 5lbs.  Once again, give it 5 days.


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## chubbydog811 (Sep 2, 2011)

Just wanted to update:
We did put her down. Took one bullet in the back of her head (thank god!) She was way too far gone to even think about treating for anything. She couldn't move, and started making that really sad/pitiful maaa (most of you long term goat owners probably know exactly what I'm talking about...That "Why do I hurt so much?" cry.) I didn't feel right keeping her alive any longer. I can handle a lot, but I'll admit, the sounds she was making made me start crying for her. I should add, I rarely, if ever cry - for any reason. 

Thank you all for the advice and quick responses though. It is greatly appreciated. 

Something that I did learn, sort of an accidental science experiment:
From starting preventative treatments early (3 weeks) to only treating as needed (which is how I usually do things) - 
I have 5 kids, all in the same paddock. 3 I raised from birth and 2 days old, the other 2 I bought at 5 weeks and 8 weeks. 
The 3 kids I have raised have had NO preventative treatments, or have been treated for anything. Their color looks good, consistently normal poops, and are all healthy (short of needing some minerals). The 2 girls that I bought later had almost white eyelids. One of which was the kid I lost today. Both were started at 3 weeks with preventative, and I kept up with it, because that is what the breeder said would be good to do.  

My connection for this - I should just keep up how I was doing things before, because it seems it worked for my farm. In the previous 2 years (this is my 3rd) that I have been raising goats, I have only had ONE issue with anything in my kids. That consisted of a little bloated and runny poops. I treated her, she got better, and she is still alive. This was also right after I bought her.
I am NOT doing preventative medicating anymore, from here on out!!! I am done. I will feed them the medicated feed when we get into the "cocci" season (if that), but other than that, I refuse to start preventative at 3 weeks old like a few different breeders recommended to me. 
I will also admit, I don't and haven't vaccinated my goats in the time that I have owned them. I also don't vaccinate my horses, unless it is my show horse or a sales horse, and if it were up to me, I wouldn't be vaccinating the dogs either. I might be crazy, but I would rather have immunity, than the parasites ect having immunity to my treatments. 

I have a slow growing anger because of the "preventative" treatment right now. They can't build any immunity to what we are treating against if we are trying to kill off everything as soon as it can be introduced in their systems. When they actually do run into a problem, how do we treat it? We've already pretty much exhausted our options.
Rawr...I'm ticked, with no one to be ticked at (other than myself for not going with what I believe)..

***Also -  this is not directed towards ANYONE on this board,  this is just me venting some of my anger from losing another kid due to this.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 2, 2011)

Very sad for you & your farm, losing any goat is hard enough, but losing a kid really stings. 

No worries, I know the frustration and agree with your plan for your herd. Also, I didn't view this as being directed towards anyone in particular.

Side note, you ever notice that the less popular breeds(Kiko's for example) are the most disease & parasite resistant?  And that breeds that are more popular(Boer for example) are the least disease & parasite resistant?  I don't think this is a coincidence.


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## redtailgal (Sep 3, 2011)

.


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## kstaven (Sep 3, 2011)

First off. It is always hard to have to put an animal down.




			
				Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Side note, you ever notice that the less popular breeds(Kiko's for example) are the most disease & parasite resistant?  And that breeds that are more popular(Boer for example) are the least disease & parasite resistant?  I don't think this is a coincidence.


This may sound harsh to some.

There is always a potential consequence in breeding to max out milk or meat characteristics . Often along the way people have forgotten about other aspects like being a tough hardy animal. 

That coupled with people on the other side of the equation who breed animals they know aren't hardy but otherwise meet the standard, selling the progeny to unsuspecting buyers who later pay the price or pass on the traits.

IMHO far too many questionable animals end up being sold rather than culled. Having the "right" frame and look isn't enough.


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## chubbydog811 (Sep 3, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> First off. It is always hard to have to put an animal down.
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Well said. I actually had mentioned that I was going to go back in their pedigrees and look if there are any similarities in the goats I have lost this year. 

And to the topic of what we do and don't do with our animals - I haven't dewormed any of the horses since last fall, and I have only dewormed one or two of the goats when I noticed their eye lids weren't the right color. I know that there is a resistance to a lot of things now, and that is why I don't understand someone telling me I should be preventative treating more...
It's a new day and I'm still sort of ticked off


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## Roll farms (Sep 3, 2011)

> Losing another because of cocci. (this was after treating once already about a month ago, AND being fed a medicated kid feed since she could eat grain. So much for that being useful.)


I'm sorry you had to go through that.

FWIW, I raise our kids using DiMethox every 18-21 days.  Kids born here, and kids bought.

Coccidia reproduce quickly.  "About a month" is time for a population explosion.   

http://www.corid.com/demo.html

As already posted, feeding medicated feed alone is not enough when kids are small.  

Kids born on your farm are probably getting a bit of immunity to YOUR cocci strains from the dams.  Kids brought in from other places have had no exposure to your bugs, and will be hit harder by them.  (They can also bring strains to you that your goats have no immunity to, we fell victim to that years ago.)

Have you had fecals ran to verify that they're not carrying a subclinical load, which wouldn't necessarily show as scouring or anemia, but could still cause some intestinal lining damage?  
When you say they need mineral, is it coat condition making you think that?  I noticed, after we started doing cocci prevention, our kid's coats looked better.
If you're feeding medicated feed, that could be why your 3 homebred kids are holding their own...it's keeping the cocci level lowered enough to not make them sick / symptomatic.

All of this is just conjecture, of course, and I'm playing devil's advocate, sort of....but I don't want you to rule out cocci treatment / prevention as a whole b/c of one bad experience or scare anyone off who may benefit from it.  I've been doing prevention for 7 years now and have a pen full of fat, healthy 6-8 mo. old kids to prove it can work.

BUT, I don't leave it up to chance - I have fecals ran in spring and again in early summer to make sure it's working.  If not, I switch to SMZ-TMP as needed.
I am religious about treating every 18-21 days.  No exceptions.
I don't add the meds (dimethox) to milk (even though it's easier), and I give them the meds on an empty stomach, then wait an hour to bottle feed.


On a side note, I agree that not enough culling is going on by breeders, and I give Kikos about another 10-15 years before they're just as riddled w/ problems as Boers are because people will be selling culls as breeding stock.


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## Goatmasta (Sep 3, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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The 1cc/5lbs on day one and 1cc/10lbs on days 2-5 is the correct dosage.


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## GoatFaerie (Sep 3, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I've actually done it, a couple of times.
> 
> The first thing to understand is that a goat's brain is very, very small.  Even in a large goat, you're talking about something about the size of a lemon, surrounded by some pretty thick bone.  In a younger goat, you're talking about something pretty daggone small.
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Whew your right that was hard to read, but thanks so much for the advice! I would have to employee the services of others in those situations, but I'd prefer they be able to do it as "cleanly" as possible. Thanks for sharing and reliving such a hard story.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 3, 2011)

GoatFaerie said:
			
		

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X's 2!!


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