# Too many mistakes with my Great Pyr?



## Lynda V (Aug 5, 2017)

I'm afraid I've made a whole bunch of mistakes with my Great Pyrenees puppy and need some advice about how to fix them (if I can). He came to us at only 7 weeks old (mistake #1). We didn't get our sheep until he was 15-weeks-old (mistake #2). I have played fetch and chasing games with him all this time (mistake #3). I didn't establish my dominance with him very well while he was small (mistake #4). Now I have a very lovable but large puppy who is far too big for me to physically handle when he shows undesirable behavior. He tries to chase the sheep whenever I take him into their pasture. He mouths my arm,bites at my clothing, and jumps up on just about everyone. He is showing traits that I have read indicate that he might not have the correct temperament to be a good LGD like having a huge chase instinct ( he loves to play fetch,which is supposed to be very unusual for a Great Pyrenees) and giving the sheep "let's play" body language. Anyway, I am a discouraged and confused as to what to do. I have never had a dog before, much less a livestock guardian, so I am really a fish out of water. I did sooo much reading before we got him, but the reality is totally different. Is it possible to hit the "reset" button with him and start over doing things better? If so, what should I do ?


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 5, 2017)

@Southern by choice 
@BrendaMNgri


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## Southern by choice (Aug 5, 2017)

how old is he now?


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## Lynda V (Aug 5, 2017)

He's exactly 6 months old today.


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## babsbag (Aug 5, 2017)

@Southern by choice will give you some great advice but take heart, my girl was 8 months old before I decided that she would indeed be a good LGD. She had many of those same traits that your does and I didn't make any of those "mistakes". I can't guarantee that he will make an LGD but you didn't break him, and he is young enough to fix if he is fixable.

He is still a puppy and many pups do all of those things you are seeing. My old boy...5 years old...will play fetch if I throw a stick but it isn't a game we play. Don't give up on him. 

And welcome to BYH. Hope you stick around and share your farm with us even after your dog problem is solved.


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## Lynda V (Aug 5, 2017)

Thank you for your encouraging words. I really need them! Did you train those bad behaviors out of your girl or did she grow out of them?


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## babsbag (Aug 5, 2017)

A little of both. I used an ecollar on VIBRATE to get her attention and break her focus on the goats. It seem to work well.As far as the nipping I tried everything and then a young man working for me got tired of it and stuck his thumb in her mouth under her tongue and pressed down. While I don't know if that is considered abusive training it worked and she never nipped at him again. I was at my end and pretty chewed up so I did the same to her and it broke the behavior immediately.  She chewed up some goats ears and legs as a pup. But at about 8 months she stopped chasing. At 11 months I got her a puppy and they still play rough. They are 12 and 19 months but entirely livestock safe. Chickens not so much but I haven't worked with them. I would always raise dogs in pairs. Two pups is so much easier. IMO

I have two older dogs that are poultry safe but they were raised with them in their field.


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## Baymule (Aug 5, 2017)

You are not the only one with puppy tales. LOL I don't know where you did your LGD studies, there is a lot of good and bad advice floating around. But you have come to the right place. There are several LGD experts here, plus us novices who just have a couple of dogs for their farm. It takes a lot of patience and more patience. You will learn along with your dog. We all had to start somewhere.

What is your dog's name? And what kind of sheep do you have?


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## Lynda V (Aug 6, 2017)

His name is Colonel Brandon, from Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility. Usually we just call him Colonel. The sheep are Babydoll Southdowns. There are just three of them, and they are my pets. We don't have a real farm,probably not even a hobby farm. Just three acres where I can indulge my long-held desire to be a shepherd. I call my sheep my "boutique" flock. The Great Pyrenees was kind of a last minute addition before we got the sheep after spending the winter listening to the coyotes yip and howl in the fields around our property.

Babsbag, how long did you have to use the ecollar? My husband has been suggesting trying one to break Col.Brandon from chasing the sheep,but I have been reluctant. I thought that when we eventually stopped using it,he would figure it out and just go back to chasing. Those poor lambs can't even give a little joyful jump,as lambs are wont to do,without the Colonel going after them!


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## Mike CHS (Aug 6, 2017)

Something that might help the experts (I'm not one of them  ) is to tell what you have done so far and how did you introduce the sheep to the dog.  Has it always been loose with the sheep unsupervised.  Those are some of the questions I was asked when I was having my problems.  Turned out most of my problems were literally my problem in not understanding what the dog needed to know.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 6, 2017)

Can you tell me what you do or have done to correct the jumping? the chasing? etc...
Sorry- very pressed for time so I am just stopping in...

Visual evaluation is always the best... generally dogs this age can be corrected but it takes time, commitment. Unless you send him to a trainer that works with rehab LGD's- that can be costly.
I mention this because truth is most will not put in the work. 
E-collar is not the first step... there are basics that need to be addressed before anything like that.


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## babsbag (Aug 6, 2017)

I did not use the collar on the pain mode, only vibrate and it was just to get her attention, not really a correction. I had tried the long lead and she did well with that correction. So then I started letting her go in the field alone and I couldn't reach her in time to actually correct her during the act and she didn't respond to "leave it" very well at all. She would be fixated on playing with a kid; I didn't even exist in her mind. We were not a bonded pair, that's for sure, she had no desire to please me whatsoever; one of the hardest dogs I have ever owned. I just used to collar to get her to forget about the kid while I yelled NO at the top of my lungs. Then I would go and get her and remover her from the goats. She also did not like me grabbing her collar, she hated it.  

I tried the rolling and holding her down, I tried putting her in "jail" (she didn't care), she was a hard nut to crack. I tried all the conventional stuff and then moved to the unconventional. I had never tried the alpha roll with any dog and never liked the idea but I was desperate. I tried it...it didn't work. I spent a lot of time walking around holding her by the collar just to let her know that I could.  LOL  She hated it but I felt that she had to learn that me grabbing her collar did not always mean that she was in trouble. 

Here is a picture of her "in jail". 





 

They can take a lot of time, some more than others, but in the end it is so worth it.


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## Lynda V (Aug 6, 2017)

Sorry, I know I need to provide more detail,so here's the story. We were expecting our lambs to come home at the end of May. We knew of a breeder one state over who had 7-week-old Great Pyrenees pups ready to go in late March,so we went and got Colonel Brandon (CB). We knew that it was not the best to get the dog before the sheep, but he came from a working farm with several Great Pyrenees, so,after consulting with the breeder, and not knowing of any other breeder nearby,we decided to go ahead.
     We put CB out in the barn from the very first. He has never been in the house. I would go out to him every couple of hours to play with him and socialize him. That's when the fetching games began. He loved it so much and I thought it was good for him. He started jumping up on people right away. I would correct him by saying "no" in as severe a voice as I could muster and take him by his front paws to remove him. That never seemed to bother him. He would just jump up again no matter how many times I removed him. As he got bigger, I started meeting his jump with my knee in his chest to deflect him,again saying,"no,get down!" He has never seemed to care when I tell him "no". He doesn't even listen very well when my husband tells him no,though my husband has a very commanding voice that he has used to direct our 5 children (4 of them boys) to great effect. At this point I was greatly discouraged until a friend who has always had large dogs suggested tapping his back paw with my foot when he jumped up. Well,that seemed to work like magic! I only had to do it a few times and he was no longer jumping up,at least on me. When other people came to see him,he forgot everything and jumped all over them in his excitement. But it was a great improvement and I was encouraged. Now,at 6 months,he is jumping up on me again and dances his back feet around so I can't get at them. He does not care about any verbal disapproval.

          When the sheep arrived,we divided the area in the barn,one side for the dog,the other for the sheep. They can see each other,but not mingle. The pasture has the same arrangement. Our land is divided into four pastures with an alley to access them. CB can go into all the pastures,except the one where the sheep are. So he can be near them at all times,but not in with them. He often lays just outside the fence where they are laying. He is showing very good guarding ability. He patrols the area constantly and runs to the pasture that the sheep are in and sits in front of the gate,barking,if he senses anything that bothers him.
          I take him on a leash when I bring the sheep out to their pasture in the morning and CB wants to chase them to their pasture. I hold him back and force him to walk, all the time saying,"walk". I go inside the pasture with him and let the leash out so that he has more freedom. Sometimes he walks nicely among them,but often he pushes them with his snout or tries to climb on them. If they so much as make a sudden turn,he's after them. I pull him back sharply and correct him with,"No chasing the sheep!". If he does it again,I take him out.
      We repeat the procedure in the evening,bringing the sheep back in. I used to take him into the sheep pen in the evening,but having him in such close quarters with the sheep didn't work out,even on a short leash. I just don't know if anything that I am doing is helpful or the right thing. There is no one out here with lgds that I can consult with. I have the time and will to put in the work it takes to help CB be a good livestock guardian,if it can be done.


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 6, 2017)

Hi and welcome to the forum.   I am not on here much because of time constraints but was tagged, and wanted to respectfully respond.

I don't advocate e-collars, shock collars, heavy tire drags or anything that is stressful or painful to dogs, I'll get that out right away.  I refer to it as the lazy shepherds crutch and there is no guarantee you'll get the results you want with one, either….what you will do is inflict pain on the pup and confuse him. You don't need that. 

What you are in for here is a long road ahead of much learning and many deep breaths.  So slow down, be calm. I am thick in the throes of a major LGD book submission deadline to a publisher and up to my ears in that…and my time is not so I can write on here much (sorry!).  So I am going to "cheat" and give you the link to my blog.  Peruse the whole thing.  I mean way back…there is a search term box you can use on it "Search This Blog".  There are years of posts about training LGDs, and more, etc. on it. You can search this forum, if you use terms like "LGD pup" "training" etc. and there will be other threads that come up.

You said you did a lot of reading - was it in LGD forums on Facebook? (gag, choke, cough!).  Don't waste your time there.  If you want to read one book that will help you understand your pup better and make communicating easier and more natural (and no shocks or pain needed), read Turid Rugaas' book on calming signals.  Here is the link.  Cheap, easy read, you can pick up put down again.  Written simply and always with the dog's best interest in mind. All my dog customers who bought it at my behest cannot thank me enough for telling them to read it, and it's made such a huge difference in their success with their pups and dogs.  When I get my LGD book done it is going to have nothing in it but training and understanding LGDs better chapter after chapter.  No breed history fluff, no re-hash stuff just hardcore how to stuff for people like you.  Like, how to walk up to an LGD in a band of sheep out on the range the right way, how to stop escapes from pens/pastures, how to reduce excessive barking etc.  Anyhow, I am big on learning canine body language and understanding the cause of the problem, not just sticking a band aid on it.  You'll get plenty of input here from helpful folks, I know.  Hang tough, be calm, relax, oh, before I forget, where is the breeder you bought the pup from.  Disappeared?  No support?  Flaked out?  Or?  Can you get help from them or is it a lost cause.  Because of course it did run through my mind, you maybe got a bad pup from a bad breeder - you can fix behavioral issues but you can't fix genetic screw ups and wrecks.  Just a thought….   Take care, Brenda.


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## Baymule (Aug 6, 2017)

Your leash training reminded me when i was training Trip, our male GP. We had 2 GP's that had never seen a sheep, a female, Paris that was 8 years old and Trip was over a year old, still very much a puppy.

I was going to move the sheep one morning to another pasture across the driveway, so I snapped a leash on Trip. My plan was to walk him to the other pasture and walk him around the sheep. He had free run of the other pasture and the yard, with the sheep closed up in the night pen. I opened the night pen gate, the sheep bolted out the gate, running for the other pasture. Trip lunged at the sheep, knocking me flat on my back. I laid there in the dirt, sheep poop and hay bits while a very puzzled Trip stood over me, bouncing up and down, clearly telling me to get up and let's go get some sheep! 

I crawled to my feet and walked leaning backwards at a 45* angle, and walked Trip to the sheep pasture. I spent a good part of the morning with Trip on a leash with the sheep. But I called my husband and had him bring me the choke collar. When Trip lunged, the choke collar told him not to do that. The choke collar made a world of difference. I used the choke chain collar to teach him not to drag me around and not to lunge at the sheep. Over time, I could drop the leash and he followed the sheep. It took time, effort and lots of patience. 

I wish i could tell you that Trip is the best LGD ever, but he's not. He jumps out of their pasture and comes to the house. He jumps back in if he thinks there is a threat, and daily-he races up and down the fence barking at the French Bulldog next door, playing.  He guards the whole place at night, I pen the sheep and open gates so he can protect us and the sheep. He does guard them, but gets bored and wants to nap under the porch during the day. I do know that if we didn't have our dogs, the coyotes would jump the fences and slaughter everything we have. So while he's not "bonded" to the sheep, he protects them as being part of his domain. He watches over the chickens the same way. They are part of his domain, so they are protected. He is on patrol right now, I hear his loud BOOF BOOF warning. So while he isn't totally in love with the sheep, he protects them, the chickens, us and our farm-but on his terms-and that's ok with me.


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## babsbag (Aug 6, 2017)

I don't think any of my dogs are bonded to the goats but they keep them safe, that is all I ask.


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## Lynda V (Aug 7, 2017)

Yeah, keeping the sheep safe is the highest priority,Baymule and Babsbag. So far I am satisfied with how Col.Brandon is shaping up in that area. I just want to be able to trust him in with the sheep. He doesn't have to love them.
    Brenda, thank you for all the advice on good reading materials. I will certainly look into them all,especially your blog. I hope your book is available soon! As for CB's breeder,I do believe she is very reputable. We visited her farm when the litter was four weeks old. She has goats and about eight Great Pyrenees that guard them. We met the parents of the litter and they seemed to be wonderful examples of the breed. I was so impressed with how calm and well behaved all the dogs were. All the dogs are AKC registered.
     I have communicated with her about my struggles with CB and she has been responsive. I guess I feel that her perspective and situation are so different from mine that I'm not sure her advice is always applicable to my situation. For example, she was very surprised that, at 4-5 months,CB wasn't in with the sheep all the time. He wasn't even close to being ready for that and still isn't. All the Great Pyrs that she has were born on her farm and were socialized and corrected from the moment of birth by the adult dogs,so her pups were undoubtedly ready to be trusted with the livestock at a young age. Not so much for a pup who left adult dogs behind when he was 7 weeks old.
    Anyway,all this to say that I am confident that CB has good genetics. His issues are from my mistakes,I'm sure. I WILL hang tough and be calm,though,and do my best to work with him. I think he's worth it!
Thanks!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 7, 2017)

Lynda V said:


> For example, she was very surprised that, at 4-5 months,CB wasn't in with the sheep all the time.


That is how they learn.
How do you prepare a dog for sheep without putting them in with sheep?  Yes, he may need supervision but the sheep teach as well.

I also want to mention that these dogs are (in most cases- they are exceptions to the rule) best with a partner. Dogs are pack animals like sheep and goats are herd animals.
They need another. For many reasons... 
That was a huge mistake. A single dog more than likely not evaluated for such and released to a home with no livestock.
I understand you want to remedy this and I commend you!  

When I have more time I will try to add some tips.


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## babsbag (Aug 7, 2017)

My older dogs don't correct the puppies, at least not the puppies that aren't theirs. I think they figure that I brought them here, I can deal with them. 

My male still jumps on me when he is excited and he is about 4  or 5 years old. I just have to be ready and learn to anticipate those moments. I turn my back on him until he calms down.

I would just take your pup out in the field on a lead as much as you possibly can, exposure is key. Some people frown on choke chains, I never used them with my LGDs but I did with my Border Collies. Maybe somebody else has some ideas on that...a pinch collar maybe??? I have never used one.  There has to be some training device that isn't considered cruel that actually gets the point across when the dog is hard headed like a Pyr.

My dog that was such a hard one to train (Mia) is in the field right now without her friend (Alondra) because Alondra is in heat and living in my house. Well Mia wants to play, she is 19 months old and still wants to run and jump on ME now that her playmate is missing. I actually saw her looking playfully at a goat yesterday. She didn't give in but you could see her wheels turning.  Adding in the second dog can make a huge difference in behavior.


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## Lynda V (Aug 7, 2017)

There seem to be such differing opinions,it's hard to know what the right answer is. I have read many times in several places (including this forum) that puppies should never be taken from their mothers before 10 or 12 weeks because they learn so much from them. Also that getting two puppies together isn't a good idea because they bond with each other rather than the livestock.

I have only three acres here with one acre fenced for just three sheep. With my acreage and the size of my flock it would probably not be a good idea to add another dog. I feel like I have perhaps done a disservice to CB to have brought him into a situation that wasn't the best for him.


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## babsbag (Aug 7, 2017)

I do think that getting a puppy at an older age can be good but it really depends on the parent as to whether or not they will have any training. But they will be a little more mature and little more self assured. I sell my pups starting at 10 weeks. 

At this point bringing in another puppy would not change the bonding between dog and stock. My first two were 16 weeks and 8 weeks and I honestly saw little difference between them when it came to their interactions with my herd. I tossed them in the goat pen and had no clue that there might be trouble, but there wasn't...they played with each other. Pure dumb luck on my part.  

I got Mia at 12 weeks, she is 1/2 sister to my first one. I can say that she must have learned NOTHING from her mother. I got Alondra 9 months later and she was 5 months old but had never been around goats other than from a distance and she did fine. After I had Mia as a single pup I was sold that I will never raise a single puppy again. NEVER. 

Sibling puppies can be harder as they already have a bond. I have sibling Border Collies and that has been ok, but I was just lucky and I probably won't do it again. 

As far as the space, I had two dogs with 12 goats on about an acre pasture. I opened up more land and they had about 2.5 acres but only when I opened the gate for them. I now have 4 dogs and about 8.5 acres, but again, only when I open the gates. At night my 4 dogs are on about an acre, that is all.  I have over 60 goats now but I don't think that herd size matters that much.


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## Bruce (Aug 7, 2017)

Really limited experience, only had Merlin for 3 weeks (*), he was about 16 months old and grew up with other GP's and sheep so not the same situation you have. 

One acre fenced which includes a pond. There was one night where he was at the south end of the area responding to something and I saw a pair of red eyes glowing beyond the north fence (about 330' from the south fence). It was a fox sitting on a rock about 75' outside the fence. It didn't care a fig that I was standing at the fence shining a flashlight on it. Point being, while an acre isn't a big space for a GP to guard, you might need 2 dogs to guard it anyway since one can't be in all places at all times.  

I do question the breeder sending the dog out at 7 weeks. I would personally wait until 8 weeks for a generic pet of any breed from any source. You will hear from some here that 8 weeks is too early for a LGD. 10 or 12 is a more reasonable minimum. 

Best of luck! 

* Wife couldn't learn ignore him working the night shift.


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## Latestarter (Aug 7, 2017)

If you really wish to have an LGD, then persevere. It's work in most cases, and more so because you got yours so young. They really do remain pups till about 18-24 months of age. They also learn the most from ~8 weeks to 16 weeks. If you work with him, even though it seems like a lost cause, if he has the genetics (coming from working parents) eventually you should be rewarded with a great dog. Hope it works out for you.


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## Beekissed (Sep 15, 2017)

babsbag said:


> your pup out in the field on a lead as much as you possibly can, exposure is key. Some people frown on choke chains, I never used them with my LGDs but I did with my Border Collies. Maybe somebody else has some ideas on that...a pinch collar maybe???



NOT a LGD expert, but will add a few cents...

For mine, I just turn the leash around, run it through the handle loop and put that resulting loop around their necks.  Does the same thing as a choke chain but not as severe or small guage, so it's just a tug on the neck.  And, as with any kind of choke type thing, it has to be used properly...a quick tug to the side and a release when the head turns towards you.   

After training with that, one only has to put the leash on in this manner to refresh their memory on leash walking....understandably, most LGDs don't get much leash time so they may need a refresher of what you want with that leash each time you apply it if it's been a long time in between.  

I too advocate two dogs, even on 3 acres...the play time and excess energy they can expend with another dog can help dogs that don't have large acreage and large flocks to protect.  I've found they can get into trouble when bored but this is decreased a good deal if they have another dog to socialize with.  Doesn't even have to be a LGD breed, as long as it can hold its own with the rough play they like.  

Life is so much better and dogs more well adjusted if they have a companion of their own species.


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## BrendaMNgri (Sep 15, 2017)

I second @Beekissed - LGDs were never meant to be used solo.


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## Lynda V (Sep 16, 2017)

I'm sure that's true. I have been in contact with a couple of breeders in my area who have puppies who will soon be ready to take home. I will certainly NOT take a puppy before it's at least 9 weeks old. Learned my lesson there! But here's the question: should I get a male or a female or does it not really matter? I've got a male,so is a male/female combination better or male/male? Please advise! I want to do this right.


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## babsbag (Sep 16, 2017)

I personally like M/F teams, it seems that they are just more likely to get along. But that also means that you have to deal with heats and keeping them apart and that can be a challenge. Large breed dogs should not be spayed before they are 2 and longer is even better so you are looking at 3-4 heat cycles to deal with. 

I have never owned two males but my females can sure be grouchy with each other, but they all get along with my male.


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## BrendaMNgri (Sep 18, 2017)

The gender question has no right or wrong, best or worst answer. It's all about the owner, what they are comfortable handling, can't handle, prefer, can exist with, etc.
@Latestarter said it well too: "If you really wish to have an LGD, then persevere."  It takes commitment, time, energy, focus, dedication. Listen to your gut….


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