# Sustainable, natural, organic, herbal, etc, and goat husbandry



## freemotion (Nov 19, 2009)

This is for a discussion on what you do to raise and keep your goats in a more sustainable model.  Tell us what works, what creative things you've tried, and research you are currently doing for your next project!

Please, please, please, this is NOT the place to discuss natural vs conventional methods.  We have plenty of access to information about the convention and industrial models.  

I will start....I am feeding my breeding does and buck with lots of fresh produce in hopes of encouraging twinning.  Although the articles I've read talk about root veggies like beets and rutabagas, my root crop failed this year due to excessive rainfall.  But I have pumpkins and apples, so am feeding those.  I run them through the food processor to slice them up into goat-sized bites, and fill a 2 gallon bucket every day or two.  I feed the seeds, too, but just pull these apart into bite-size clumps....otherwise, my does flings them all over the place while attempting to eat them, and makes a mess of the area around my milking stand.

Since root veggies were used in the articles, I also am feeding beet pulp rehydrated with beet kvass, an easy-to-make product that is very high in probiotics and increases the vitamin content.  

I introduced the fresh foods gradually, but since my goats have access to pasture 24/7 and a warm fall has the grass still growing, it hasn't been a huge concern.  I added some homemade sauerkraut in the beginning to add even more probiotics, about a tablespoon per goat.

Milk production has gone up again, in the ninth month of my does' lactation. 

I always have jars of fermented veggies in my fridge, and give a spoonful anytime I feel probiotics would be useful.  For me and for the goats.

What have you tried?  What is on your project list?


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## big brown horse (Nov 19, 2009)

Hi Freemotion! 

Well I don't have goats...yet, but I have been soaking my senior horse's whole oats in whey for 24 hours before I feed them to her.  She has actually put on a bit of weight since I started a week and a half ago.  She gets ribby in the winter, so this has really helped keep her at an even weight all year long.  The chickens and ducks get what is left over.  Its all good!  The fermented oats are full of wonderful probiotics too. 

The sheep are wormed and cared for naturally when needed and their poo goes straight into the garden to fertilize my veggies.  Nice big beautiful veggies this year thanks to them.  I'm not afraid to feed them to my family with this method.  Sheep eat my 1 acre back yard and keep the orchard in tip top shape too.  My goal is to make my little farm as sustainable and healthy as possible.  Soon I hope to be a sheep milk farmer-dude. 

I'm not sure goats are for me, but thank you for providing this information.


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## freemotion (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm sure there is a lot of cross-over in sustainable goat and sheep husbandry methods.  Both are small ruminents so feel free to add whatever you want here!


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## big brown horse (Nov 19, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I'm sure there is a lot of cross-over in sustainable goat and sheep husbandry methods.  Both are small ruminents so feel free to add whatever you want here!


Thanks, I will!


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## ksalvagno (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm just starting to read up on herbs and stuff. I'm working on what I realistically can do. I know I can't do 100% natural or whatever you want to call it but I want to do as much as possible. I would really love to get away from the chemical wormers as much as possible. When my usually nonchalant vet is talking about how worried he is about parasites becoming resistant in our area, I took that as time to start looking NOW for alternatives. If nothing else, I'm hoping that I can extend time between worming. Eventually I think I would like to learn how to do my own fecals so i could save money there.

We fenced in pretty  much all of our property so we would have more grazing space. We only have 6 acres so we will have to use it wisely and I won't be able to rotate patures as much as I would like but we would like to eventually divide a large pasture we have so that we can.

We planted a few vegetables this year in the part of our flowerbed around the house that was empty. We only got tomatoes and cucumbers and a couple carrots but it was a start.


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## dragonlaurel (Nov 19, 2009)

Free -  Would kombucha be good for goats?


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## freemotion (Nov 19, 2009)

ks, check out the instructions on www.fiascofarm.com.  It is really pretty easy!  I found a microscope on craigslist and a bunch of new slides, and pretty much paid off the cost of all that with my first fecals.  You might find one even cheaper on Ebay, but I like to check things out in person with something like that.

dl, I haven't given kombucha to my goaties yet but funny you should mention it.  I was just wondering if it would have some of the benefits of ACV.  I have some extra this time of year, as I forget to drink it as much once I am drinking mostly hot drinks myself, so it is a good time to start adding some.  I will add some to the beet pulp along with the beet kvass.  I will put some in the poultry water, too, or make a mash for them so they really take it in.


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## jlbpooh (Nov 19, 2009)

I have been wanting to learn how to keep my goats as naturally as possible too. I have the Natural Goat Care book by Pat Coleby and it has a lot of really nice information for anyone that is interested. I got it off of Amazon for a really reasonable price.


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## freemotion (Nov 19, 2009)

Oh, please share something....have you tried anything from the book that you particularly liked?


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## dragonlaurel (Nov 19, 2009)

Let me know if they like the kombucha  and how they do on it - if you decide to go ahead.  I'm thinking about starting to grow it again next year.


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## Iceblink (Nov 20, 2009)

Ok, this isn't particularly health related, but on another thread I think Free had mentioned gathering and feeding acorns, so I tried it, and at first my sheep liked them, then after a day or so, they wouldn't touch them. I have read that vineyard owners have sucessfully trained sheep to eat only the weeds in the vineyard by spraying the vines with something that makes the sheep nauseous, and after that they don't touch the vines, and only graze on the weeds. I am concerned that something like that might have happened with the acorns. I only gave them very small amounts, and they are fine, but it made me wonder....

  Too bad because I have (actually, thanks to the squirrels, had) lots and lots of acorns and it would have been a nice way to supplement their food. 

  I was reading Jared Diamond's book about how although oaks should be domesticated, considering what a valuble food source acorns are,  they aren't and why, it was very interesting.


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

I haven't fed any acorns yet, but I have some to feed to my poultry this winter.  I didn't get many because I was out of town most of the time they were falling this year.  I'm not so sure I would feed them to my goats, but pigs and poultry, yes, at about 15% of the total ration.

You will do better with acorns from white oaks rather than red oaks.  White oaks have rounded leaves with no points and red oak leaves are pointy or have little thorn-like projections on the lobes.  There is a lot more tannin in acorns from red oaks, making them very bitter.  You can remove the tannins by coarsely grinding them and soaking them in a few changes of hot water.  Seems like a lot of work, but worth experimenting with.  You can also eat acorns yourself this way, once the masa is no longer bitter, you can put it into breads, muffins, pancakes, etc.

My plan is to put the acorns in a sack and run them over a few times with my car to crush them.  Keeping the squirrels out is the challenge!  If this winter's experiment makes it seem worthwhile, I will pick up and store much more next year.

Oh, and the more tannin, the longer they keep, so it may be worthwhile storing both types and using the white ones first.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

jlbpooh - thanks for the book recommendation! i'm checking itout

Free - thanks for starting a thread like this. we like to do things as naturally as possible - which is a view that i think many of us share. what works for us is common sense and using whatcha got. 

we use the 'get out there and free range, cuz its free' approach. in fact our mini's didnt get any bagged feed for most of the summer. i started feeding per the bag instructions to our mini mancha and with in a month she got huge! i talked to the local breeder and she said if she doesnt need it, dont feed it. 

we dont have a huge pasture so we've tried to use it wisely. earlier in the summer we fenced off a section with the intention of letting it grow out. as we got into fall we took down that fence as the yard got pretty much eaten down - the goats went to town on it! its or mini-version of rotated pasturing.

while we were clearing the property we had a lot of weeds - but for many reasons we couldnt just turn the goaties loose. so instead of just brush hogging it down we used the weed wacker to cut it, then took it into the goat yard. they loved it and saved us $$ for hay. i kept waiting for our dairy gals' milk production to go down or for the milk to be 'off' b/c we werent feeding them just pricey hay.... but i didnt have a big enough bucket for all that milk and it was never bad! sure it was more work for us - but in the end it really worked out. next year we are doing this from day one. 

we also like a 'stacked' barnyard - everyone is out there in a big heap. the hens share the yard with the goaties; and the ducks come and go. the goats cant get to the chicken feed, but the hens clean up what the goats dont eat...including all that wasted hay. goats feed the hens milk, hens keep the bugs down, ducks keep the flies down, everyone eats at their 'level' and it all has been working out very nicely. 

i was really nervous about getting goats - especially dairy goats. all you ever hear about is how difficult they are to keep in the fence, parasites, and how they could die at any minute. throw in all the 'rules' about a strict milking schedule, expensive feed, living in terror of 'bloat' blah blah blah. so i talked to an old timer and wow she really set me straight. 

the best lesson i learned was that even tho there area million ways a goat could die - most likely they wont. that was the shove i needed. so instead of buying into all the hype i started looking around at others who were raising naturally and used their suggestions. maybe i'm lucky but i'm sticking with the 'old' ways. it works for us. 

and it took forever to dry that darn goat out. next year i'm totally throwing that 'must milk every 12 hrs' right out the window. we'll be on a schedule but sheesh! i'm not missing Wheel of Fortune again!


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

We have a stacked barnyard too.  Didn't know it had a name.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

dontcha just love the term??? hee hee hee 

when i first heard it i thought the hens should ride around on the ducks shoulders... who were standing on the goats!

hee hee!

see!?!? this IS fun in farming!


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## FarmerChick (Nov 20, 2009)

isn't it amazing that literally "the family farm" is being rediscovered.

people lived like this.   a few chickens, some geese or such, some hogs, some cattle, a milk cow or 2, some goats etc. etc.    All balancing each other mostly.   The small sustainable garden and herb garden and the larger fields of crops to sell to pay that mortgage....lol...or have cash for life.

It was a balance.  A balance to survival.

So far gone that is.....


Pasture rotation is key for me.  After worming all animals get routed into a 15 acre pasture to "unload"---LOL---then into another pasture after that for grazing, then into kidding pastures right before their time.  Then I have pastures for does and kids.   Yea alot of fencing but so worth it.   Having land I am lucky to be about to do true pasture rotation with ALOT of goats and cattle.

What is the saying---40 acres and a mule and I can live and feed my family and survive!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

what i would love to see is, instead of all the corporate farm bashing and trying to stop all that mess.... 

why dont we PROMOTE little farming ventures?  i love the notion of the 'victory garden' and a couple of hens in each yard. 

we got  alot of teasing from our friends when we started out.. now its.. hey can i have some eggs and will you dress a turkey for us? some of the older folks are church march up to us and say 'can i have a chicken?" i just love that. i'm taking some lard to some of the ladies for their holiday baking. 

the old timers have a lot of institutional knowledge that is being lost. i learned a while ago to ASK. they love to talk about it and i get the benefit of 70-odd years of life and bits of knowledge you cant read anywhere.


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## BDial (Nov 20, 2009)

When I finish up my conventional dewormer I am trying this http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3397&cat=82&page=1 . It smells like licorice. I have two more doses of the old stuff. A friend of mine uses it and hasn't had as much of an issue with worms. Hopefully it works for me.


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

Anyone else curious how goats(mainly, but other farm type animals) are raised in all the third world countries?  Where people devote little labor, capital or vet care yet the buggers still survive.


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## FarmerChick (Nov 20, 2009)

yea Ohio you are so right.

those "ways of living on the farm" and people and critters surviving WITHOUT current technology.   Oh my, how did they survive..lol


I do the same.  I have alot of old timers here that I know.  Being a farmer I chat with old farmers all the time.   Their knowledge to vet critters when needed and tricks to help the small farm survive are absolutely priceless.

and to think YOU and me will be those people eventually...HA HA HA
well, alot of years to go for us!!



Big corps are needed for people to eat.  I am not a fan, but people will not do for themselves.    Just the direction society has headed.  such a global world now.   olden days you would be lucky to get into town once a month or 2-----now you can go global overnight..LOL


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## FarmerChick (Nov 20, 2009)

3rd world countries

goats are on their own..LOL

with old time nature to help them survive.




Pine trees are great for goats.  Natural wormer situation.

My does eat the pines, strip the bark etc.  They love those pines.

All Xmas trees that haven't been sprayed, I ask everyone (including landscape stores etc that sell them in the local area) for all their leftover trees.   Goats eat the hound out of them.


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

I did stumble across this "e book" on sustainable development in third world countries, I think I have it opened to the goat pages: http://books.google.com/books?id=o5...page&q=goats in third world countries&f=false

ETA: sorry if this is off topic sorta.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

BDial said:
			
		

> When I finish up my conventional dewormer I am trying this http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=3397&cat=82&page=1 . It smells like licorice. I have two more doses of the old stuff. A friend of mine uses it and hasn't had as much of an issue with worms. Hopefully it works for me.


we use this and it works like a dream. i only had to use the conventional stuff once - now i just use it on the dogs. 

one of the dairy gals we brought in needed to be wormed. i used the hoegger stuff - i think you use it 3 days for the first time - and she had a total turn around in a week or so. i'm totally sold on it. 

and yes FC they already think i'm the crazy old chicken lady!!! i'm already 'mentoring' a younger farm couple. who woulda thought!??!?

i think they should start some pro-family-farm propaganda... the slogan should be something like:

Be and American. Get a Chicken. 

;-)


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

Be an American - Get a Chicken! 

Love it!


Ok I'm going to check out that wormer too.  This year all my cross fencing goes up for horses and for the sheep.  Rotation is the goal.(We just moved way out here and there were NO fences up then.  We have to take baby steps because of the economy.)


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

OK, someone help me out here.  I know I've read not to use wormwood in pregnant animals but Hoegger's says it is safe.  Waddaya think?

Hey, thanks, everyone, for jumping in on this thread.  Go off topic to other critters and third world countries, that is just fine with me!!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

its gotta be the AMOUNT that you use.... i had the same concerns especially since i have that stupid wormwood growing everywhere around here. 

the weekly amount is 1.5 teasp per big goat, 1/2 for a small goat...and the wormwood is just one ingredient. 

dunno??????


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## ksalvagno (Nov 20, 2009)

According to Molly from Fiasco Farm, it is not safe. I bought some dewormering herbs from her and the one with the wormwood in it says not to feed to pregnant does.


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## BDial (Nov 20, 2009)

Shoot. Then I have to wait till they kid. One of my girls is due in 4 months and the other is at the breeder "getting married" right now.

ETA: does anyone know if it would be safe to use on a horse.( Just thought about it so I haven't looked anything up yet.)


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

So what would you worm pregnant does with?

I have a goal of growing all the herbs myself, but will probably buy a pre-mixed batch first as part of the learning process.  I haven't jumped in yet, still researching.  Still have that bottle of Ivomec in my fridge.  Running fecals, so I haven't had to use it much at all, and would like to go herbal completely if possible.

I harvested, dried, and ground up green hulls from my black walnut trees and have two quart jars almost full on the shelf.  I will plant lots this spring of the other herbs needed, but will just buy the dried herbs for now.  I have a recipe I plan to try....but since three of my five are getting bred, I have to change those plans.  I think I will order from Molly's herbals this week.


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

Just ordered the kit.  There is some great info on the site on wormwood and pregnancy.  I will avoid Hoegger's with preggers does.  My does will start on the herbals when I get back from Maine week after next, and I will run fecals first and then maybe every two weeks for a while.....sound good?


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

Care to explain how to run fecals with your microscope.  Is it easy?   You know, what to look for etc.  I have a microscope that I let my kiddos use in my classroom.  I think I will dig it out of storage. 

(I know how to do it with horses...and to check how much sand they have ingested etc.  I dont need a microscope for that.)


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## miss_thenorth (Nov 20, 2009)

dragonlaurel said:
			
		

> Free -  Would kombucha be good for goats?


Sorry, I have not read all the posts, but had to comment on this one.  I have a friend who is from Denmark.  when i started making kombucha, i explained it to her, and she said "you drink that?"  In Denmark, people make that and give it to their horses.  She said it helps them digest their food and keep them healthy on the inside.  so I assum it would be the same for any animal, yes?  I realize goats are ruminants, but you gotta keep the gut flora healthy right?


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## miss_thenorth (Nov 20, 2009)

How do you keep your goats out of the chicken feed?  We are going to be fencing in our backyard to make it a barnyard, (mainly becasue I'm tired of the chickens and ducks pooping all over my cement patios and sidewalks.)  So, this was my only concern, but since we are now getting sheep, I'm not as concerned since they don;t climb like goats do (or crawl through chicken doors like goats do), but it is still a concern of mine for when the sheep come.


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## BDial (Nov 20, 2009)

A sugar solution is one I have used in the clinic and it is easy to make. Here are sites you might find useful. http://www.triquestboergoats.com/fecaltesting.htm
http://www.goatbiology.com/fecalsolution.html
http://www.microscope-microscope.org/applications/animals/fecal_analysis.htm


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

BBH, there are detailed instructions on the Fias Co Farm site.  I printed out the pictures of the worm eggs onto card stock and put them in page protectors and keep them with my microscope stuff.  I used the float solution recipe on that site, too, as it is just Epsom salts, no scary chemicals.  You have to make the solution ahead of time....it took me two days to get the solution saturated, as I was too stingy with the salt.  Next time I will just dump the box in and then pour off the solution the next day.

I keep my goats out by feeding the poultry twice a day by scattering grain (once a day in the really nice weather when they can get most of what they need through free-ranging.)  I only fill the hanging feeder in their coop in the dead of winter when the squirrels are sleeping.  My feed consumption was cut in half or more when I started doing this.  There is probably half a ton of feed buried in the neighborhood by those silly squirrels!

I had to keep making my coop's pop door smaller and smaller until my pygmies, apparently boneless, couldn't get in anymore.  I will not be using the hanging feeder when the kids are born, so it won't be an issue then.  I also will toss a pound or two of grain in the litter when I lock them in for the night, so it is there for them in the morning.  Or if I have produce for them, I put something in the night before, after dark, so they will have something to eat until I get up and open the coop.  I am not an early riser, since I have to have high energy late in the day for work, and am the type who will work hard from the moment I get up.  Except for my frequent breaks here!!!

I am bottling up a batch of kombucha today, so I will make tonight's beet pulp with it, and will make a little extra for the chickens and turkeys.  They do like it.  I also put some in with today's bucket of barley that is in to soak, instead of whey or ACV.  It smells good!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

our goats and chickens share a small barn but they have different doors and there is a solid interior wall between their sleeping areas. we strategically put a gate/fence so the goats cant get to the chicken door. 

before we did this it was hellish. i once saw one of my minis make a flying leap - about 5 ft - from the top of a brooder over the half door into the hen's coop where their feed is. wow. i had to hand it to her, that was some leap!

now that their main quarters are completely separate we dont have any problems. 

and the electric fence really made a difference too!  the hens can get thru but the goaties cant. 

mostly we feed the hens at nite anyway then its, you guessed it, get out there and free range cuz its free! for those chickies too. 

one great thing about the goats - we made a cereal with the goat milk and crushed corn for the hens. they loved it and we noticed a good change in the eggs immediately. stronger shells and such

the only down side was one time we went out there and all the hens were laying under a shrub - no scratching or digging or foraging at all. we looked at each other and said 'well i guess we're feeding those hens too well!"  it was like chicken club med - we told them to get up girls, this aint to summer camp!


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

BDial said:
			
		

> A sugar solution is one I have used in the clinic and it is easy to make. Here are sites you might find useful. http://www.triquestboergoats.com/fecaltesting.htm
> http://www.goatbiology.com/fecalsolution.html
> http://www.microscope-microscope.org/applications/animals/fecal_analysis.htm


Thanks BDial!!


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## noobiechickenlady (Nov 20, 2009)

Here's some good info.
http://www.naturalark.com/natgoathealth.html


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

noobiechickenlady said:
			
		

> Here's some good info.
> http://www.naturalark.com/natgoathealth.html


Fantastic!  I just read the article, "Why Natural?" and it says everything I believe.  Can't wait to read the rest of it!  

Hey, y'all have crazy nerd skilz!!!!  Love it!  THANK YOU!!!!


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## noobiechickenlady (Nov 20, 2009)

As WZ says, Google Foo. Heeeeyah!
I nodded my way through the whole site, except when I was writing stuff down


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

noobiechickenlady said:
			
		

> As WZ says, Google Foo. Heeeeyah!
> I nodded my way through the whole site, except when I was writing stuff down


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## FarmerChick (Nov 20, 2009)

miss_thenorth said:
			
		

> dragonlaurel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


key being they are ruminents and it is SO IMPORTANT to truly know how that will effect their system.    be sure before feeding it definitely.

I don't know.  I never made it or really know what it is....LOL.....but those guts run in a very fine tune.   Not even close to a horse.

I have no idea if it would bloat at all.  Bloat can be so deadly.

just throwing that out there.


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

Kombucha is one of those ferments that is very high in probiotics.  I am not worried about feeding a small amount, which is what I will do next feeding in the beet pulp.  I'll let you know what happens!  We are talking a tablespoon per critter at most, probably less.  It is more of a supplement than a food source.  Similar in some ways to ACV.


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## jlbpooh (Nov 20, 2009)

First of all I would like to complement everyone on how nice this thread is progressing. It is much better than the "organic post." I got a little peeved and scared with that one especially with even trying to do anything naturally. I am gaining so much enthusiasm for still striving to give them as little of the pharmaceutical type stuff as possible.

I want to try the natural thing. I haven't tried any one thing specifically from the Natural Goat Care book yet. On the reviews on Amazon, a few people said it was hard to find the components in the recipes, but Hoeggers sells all of it. They reccommend dried kelp give free choice, dolomite, and a few things mixed with it to use as a daily mineral supplement. Vitamic C was highly reccommended to cure many illnesses, sometimes it needs to be injected and other times sprinkled on food. The book had a little bit of skipping around and some repetitiveness, but overall was done well if you ask me. I read it from cover to cover right before I got my babies. 

I bought the Molly's Herbal deworming kit too. DO NOT give the goat formula to horses because of the black walnut, she makes a separate formula for them. I may need to make the dosage balls though because 1 of my goats finally finished his first dose after 3 feedings and the other one picked all the pellets out and left the herbs. I may try to mix it in water and drench them, but my husband is on second shift now and I don't think my daughter is quite able to help hold them to try the drench even though they are Nigis. It has a very, very strong smell to it though so keep it away from anything you don't want tasting like garlic, lol.

I didn't pursue trying to get them to take anymore herbal after this whole other thread had started because so many people swore it didn't work, I was upset with myself for blowing $26 with shipping for it. I am much more inclined to try it now after reading that others have used it. My vet did worm them a few weeks ago when I brought them in for their rabies shots. Do you think it would hurt to start them on the natural stuff already? I asked if they would do a fecal float, and they just shot them up with the Ivomec instead and told me to come back in 4 months for more. Hmm, not sure about that. They could have made much more off the fecal I would think. They only charged $10 total to worm both goats.


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## miss_thenorth (Nov 20, 2009)

JLB, I am soo glad you didn't get scared off!


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

Do you have any interest in learning to do your own fecals?  Do you have any connections with the local science department at the high school that will let you run in with a couple of slides?  It really is quite easy.  And you will have the tools to know if the herbal formulas are right for your goats and for your property.

I just got an e-mail that mine just shipped from Molly's Herbals.  Worth the $26 just for the learning experience, for me.  That money spent will force me to get moving on this project that I keep putting off.  But I really only wormed my goats 3 times in 6 (?  How long have I had them?  ) years and I seriously doubt any of them were EVER wormed before I had them.  I see no health issues and the fecals I ran a month ago showed a few eggs but in the acceptable range.  I will be monitoring my progress and will post about it, but just keep in mind that the worm burden on my property will not likely resemble the worm burden on anyone else's property.  So in the early stages, at least, being able to run fecals is the best way to determine what herbs work for your goats on your pastures.


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

And I hope more people find us and we can really get going with some great discussions and ideas and experiences!  Come on, lurkers, the water is fine....jump right in!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Nov 20, 2009)

> I asked if they would do a fecal float, and they just shot them up with the Ivomec instead and told me to come back in 4 months for more. Hmm, not sure about that. They could have made much more off the fecal I would think. They only charged $10 total to worm both goats.


yep. thats kinda the crux of the matter. 

i turned around on our local vet - i just took him a bag of poop, and not the goat, and said - hey buddy will you test this? $10 and out the door. 

you might also see if there is a 'big animal' vet around - your person might be...but really they are following 'standard procedure.

one of the reasons some of us do our own "vet work" (to the best of our abilities) is to avoid  the "standard procedure" and lots of chemicals. the natural way gets lost in the stampede for better living thru chemicals. 

but to answer your question - if i remember right, the one dairy gal i wormed with ivormec, i started pretty quickly with the herbal stuff. another benefit for me with the herbal wormer - i wasnt very excited about drinking the milk from her after pouring on the chemicals.

as i understand it the two work differently so i figured it was ok. and she's out there right now and not dead so success!

;-)


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## miss_thenorth (Nov 20, 2009)

How strong of a microscope would you need to do your own fecals?  I think this would be very beneficial to my operation, with the animals that I have, and will have in the future.


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

My dog, who lives for fresh milk, wouldn't touch the milk for several days after the Ivomec.  I gave it a few more days after he would drink it again before I would save it for us.

A fecal on a goat is $22 here.  To get the vet on the farm, I will spend an average of $300.  To bring the goat in, I will spend an average of $200 with almost no treatment.  You bet I practice preventative health care and don't call the vet unless it is absolutely necessary!


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

miss_thenorth said:
			
		

> How strong of a microscope would you need to do your own fecals?  I think this would be very beneficial to my operation, with the animals that I have, and will have in the future.


I got all my info on www.fiascofarm.com and got my 'scope on craigslist.  I was able to get an older professional lab model for about the cost of the cheap one she recommends on the Fias Co site.  And I got a lesson in how to use it.  It really is easy, after the first one, which took about a half hour to fiddle around and find anything.  Then it was like someone turned the lights on in the room, and I knew exactly what to do from then on.

I think it was 10x to 40x, maybe?  There are all kinds of digital ones available now, that you hook up to a monitor.  Too technical for me.  I like the little simple light bulb and the eyepiece.  I imagine using the screen is much easier on your eyes and neck if you are looking at slides all day long.  But my older one works just great.


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## jlbpooh (Nov 20, 2009)

The vet I went to does do large animals too. There are 2 vets close by that specialize in goats. The one at this clinic wasn't there the day I went though. I like the idea of bringing the bag there and asking them to test it. It's not like goats don't poo very often, lol.  He turned his nose up when I said I wanted to use the herbal stuff and looked at me like I was crazy though. We have 4 other animals going there though, plus the 2 that passed last year were going there as well. We have also referred 5 or so other people to them so they need to be nice to me. I did bring one of my dogs for shots last week though they were really nice and asked how the goats were doing. 

I thought about learning to do my own fecals though since I have dogs, cats, chickens, guineas, ducks, geese, and the goats. It isn't like it wouldn't come in handy, lol. I need to deworm my chickens because most of them are 2-3 years old and have never been wormed, some of the poo has been looking really different and some of the chickens have been looking rather rough even before they started molting.


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## FarmerChick (Nov 20, 2009)

DOING YOUR OWN FECALS IS EASY

Parasites are the biggest health management problem facing goat producers. Worms and coccidia kill more goats than all other illnesses combined. It is therefore surprising to learn that many goat raisers do not have an established program of regular, systematic microscopic examination of goat "pills" (feces) for worms and coccidia.

Doing fecals is easy. All you need are a few supplies and some goat poop! There are several companies that sell used reconditioned microscopes over the Internet. I purchased an American Optical microscope (4 x 10 x 40 power with three lenses) and an extra lightbulb from Associated Microscope for $150. A six-month mechanical warranty came with it and shipping from the East Coast to Texas via UPS was $9.00. 

Additional supplies needed are : few test tubes (12 cc syringe covers will suffice), a handful of plain glass slides (gridded slides are not necessary), slide covers (optional), fecal floatation solution (sodium nitrate can be obtained from a vet), a stirrer (fecal loop or popsicle stick), a block of styrofoam (hollowed out to hold the test tubes upright), and a chart depicting worm eggs and coccidia oocysts.

Now for the "fun" part. Catch the goat whose "pills" you want to check and collect fresh feces, either by using a fecal loop to gather the substance from inside the goat, or stand around for a few minutes until the goat drops some "pills." Given their fast metabolism, goats defecate often. Do NOT use old, dried-out "pills" when doing fecal examinations. Old pill bottles or the vials in which 35 mm film is packaged are good for collection and labelling. For goats with diarrhea who require fecal testing, put on a pair of disposable gloves and obtain a fecal sample by inserting your gloved fingers into the goat.

Put three of four fresh goat "pills" into the test tube and pour just enough floatation solution into the tube to cover them completely. Mash them up with the stirrer. Then fill the tube with more floatation solution to the point that it is slightly overflowing. Place a glass slide over the top, letting a suction form with the solution against the slide, and place the slide in your styrofoam test-tube holder. Wait FIVE minutes to allow the eggs to float to the top and adhere to the slide.

Carefully remove the slide from the top of the test tube and place the slide into the microscope's viewing holder. (Dispose of the contents of the test tube.) Using the chart of worm eggs and coccidia oocysts, slowly adjust the lens to suit your eyes and move the slide from side to side and up and down until you find worm eggs and/or coccidia oocysts. The main worm problem in goats is Haemonchus contortus; however, some areas are subject to liver fluke infestation. The funny-looking darkened zeroes with a small white pinhole center are water bubbles. Realize that since the matter has not be strained, there will be debris in the mixture, so ignore it and look only for the parasite eggs as your chart depicts them.

Almost every goat has a few worms and even some coccidia oocysts to help stimulate its immune system. But if you find more than a couple of eggs or oocysts in your fecal sample, take appropriate corrective measures and treat the goat accordingly.

There are far more sophisticated methods for doing fecals, but the procedure outlined above will suffice quite well for the average goat producer. It will tell you what you need to know in order to keep your herd worm- and coccidia-free.


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## big brown horse (Nov 20, 2009)

Great info FarmerChick!


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## miss_thenorth (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks you soooo much Farmerchick!  Very informative!


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## freemotion (Nov 20, 2009)

Let us know how it goes if you decide to do your own.  You have a lot of goats and can really give us the goods!


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## jlbpooh (Nov 20, 2009)

FarmerChick, where in NC are you? I work in NC, but live in SC. If you were close we could get together sometime and talk goats, lol.


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## bibliophile birds (Nov 20, 2009)

jlbpooh said:
			
		

> He turned his nose up when I said I wanted to use the herbal stuff and looked at me like I was crazy though.


i have had this response from many a vet over the years. at first i let them convince me they knew best, but not any more. here's the quickest way to deal with that problem: explain, politely at first, that you see these animals every single day and the vet sees them once in a blue moon, so you probably know what's needed more than they do. also explain that the money you give him/her for a fecal spends exactly the same as the money you give him/her for dewormer, so you expect your wishes to be fulfilled.

if that doesn't work, or they try to make you feel bad for wanting to try holistic methods, then inform them, maybe not so politely, that there are lots of other vets you could spend your money with and that microscopes aren't all that expensive.

that was the advice my godfather gave me, and he is a wonderful vet. he said to think of your animals as you would your children: would you let a doctor convince you not to run tests that you thought were important?


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## FarmerChick (Nov 20, 2009)

jlbpooh said:
			
		

> FarmerChick, where in NC are you? I work in NC, but live in SC. If you were close we could get together sometime and talk goats, lol.


Catawba SC

I live in Catawba County, NC....LOL

near Hickory

that is wild...were in NC do you work?


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## Beekissed (Nov 20, 2009)

This thread still lives????    Wonderful!!!!   

  Hi, everyone of you goatie folks!


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## dragonlaurel (Nov 21, 2009)

miss_thenorth said:
			
		

> dragonlaurel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't know they used it with horses. 
My old roommate loved it and started growing it.  I gave some to potted plants and it perks them up fast but ants like it too. Cut up the old ones and they help compost break down faster. 
Sounds like it would be good for the goaties but maybe try diluted first.


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## freemotion (Nov 21, 2009)

I've read that people who have never tried it should start with a small amount and work up.   I do the same with my critters when trying something new that is off the beaten path.

So I put about a half cup in the beet pulp that is divided up among all five goats, along with about a half cup of beet kvass and some water.  So that is less than an ounce each.  They are all still standing, and will get the same amount in tonight's beet pulp, and again tomorrow.

I may just start rotating some good stuff through their beet pulp.....kombucha, beet kvass, sauerkraut, ACV, and whatever else I come up with.  All stuff that is excellent for digestion and teeming with the correct probiotics.


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## dragonlaurel (Nov 21, 2009)

They wont ever get bored of their beets.    It will be an adventure wondering what is in there each time.  All good stuff though- so it should go over fine.


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## freemotion (Nov 21, 2009)

Hey, that smily looks like my bucky!    Until his tongue connects with the electric fence, then its:


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## houndit (Nov 25, 2009)

I use the Hoeggers herbal wormer.  That is the only real natural wormer I have found.  Although for  a while I used Coconut.  We read an article in a book about how good coconut is.  It talked about some impoverished people in India I think.  They had tape worms who were 6 feet long.  They were given dried coconut for a while and the worms cleared up.  I tried it on my goats.  I was not sure if it worked or not.  One day, a lady who knows a lot about goats, she has tons of them, came over.  She looked at our goats and wanted to know what kind of wormer I used.  I told her what I had been doing.  She said our goats were healthy and had no worms.  I continued this until the goats refused to eat the coconut.  They used to dive into it, but now they will not eat it.    I have gone back to the herbal wormer.  It is getting expensive.  I am planning to next year go to Pat Coelby's copper program.  If anyone else tries the coconut I would really appreciate it if you tell me how it works for you.  I think that it needs more testing before being recognized as a real natural way to worm goats.  It worked for me for months, until they quit eating it.


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## mully (Nov 25, 2009)

miss_thenorth said:
			
		

> How strong of a microscope would you need to do your own fecals?  I think this would be very beneficial to my operation, with the animals that I have, and will have in the future.


Here is a site that is worth looking at ...it is simple and concise http://www.goatbiology.com/index.html

Look at the section on fecal exams.


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## Marta (Dec 4, 2009)

ok not 3rd world but some times it feels like it (what with the lack of wages or what we get in 1 month you would get in a day ) lol living in The Crimea, thats south of Ukraine on the Black sea.

anyway back to the topic.
over here we sun dry all the greens from Peas, Potatoes (not sure I like the idea of potato greens or tomato greens dried but all the goats love it) weeds, all the eckasia quince, cherry, apple, pear, and the goats fav almond leaves dried and kept in the barn, the seed pods from Eckasia is supposed to be high in everything thats good. (nb: all are dried crisp whether green or brown) I am very worried about giving these leaves for the obvious reasons but hey Ho....
And the 1 thing I have refused (but lost )and had many arguments with Babushka and thats the mix of:
Potato peelings carrot peelings and cabbage all cooked up and mixed with wheat mids and barley
throw in some potato and cabbage water and they feed every animal with it....really not too sure about it.
 wormers come in wormwood etc well there does not seem to be a worm problem around here lol

on a last note the hay round here is really stemmy and I mean stems like barley straw Marta refuses it the other goats are ok as Ive seen them eat it so


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## FarmerChick (Dec 4, 2009)

If the other goats eat the hay maybe the 1 goat has teeth problems??

just wondering


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## Marta (Dec 5, 2009)

I thought that and checked in there......(never put your finger in a young goats mouth...it hurts lol) my blood spurted everywhere..lol) they look ok and she now has all her molars for the age,ie:10 months...

just a thought as she is loosing a little weight....will beet sugar mixed with water and then mixed with that hay be OK and tasty she does love sweet things but Im unwilling to try....my thought is it is similar to molasses in what it achieves,,,(not what it looks like lol)


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## Buster (Feb 15, 2010)

big brown horse said:
			
		

> Anyone else curious how goats(mainly, but other farm type animals) are raised in all the third world countries?  Where people devote little labor, capital or vet care yet the buggers still survive.


As a matter of fact, yes. That is one reason we are starting with goats for our mammalian meat animals.


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## big brown horse (Feb 15, 2010)

Cool.

Keep us updated!


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## the simple life (Feb 15, 2010)

I am assuming it may be they are allowed to develop a natural immunity to the things around them that would make animals from a vaccinated and medicated herd sick.
I just bought some goats and a sheep from a hardcore organic farm, they had never been vaccinated or given any medications of any kind. 
They told me they had been raising their animals this way for years.
I bought a pregnant 3 year old doe and a 6 month old sheep and a 6 month old goat.
I had the vet come out and inspect them all and she said they appeared to be very healthy.
I asked her to do all the tests she could on them.
She called me after and told me that they had such a low worm count she wouldn't recommend treating them for that.
They tested negative for cae cl and johnes as well.
Maybe the babies born there get a natural immunity to virus/disease passed on to them from the herd.
In the same sense that vaccinations work low grade exposure to organisms can help develop a natural resistance.
I can't say this is what has happened for a fact, its just speculation but it does make you wonder since this is the same way its done in those countries where they are never treated for anything and they do not have any issues.

Just as an aside, I am a beekeeper and the bees in this country are having a very tough time with mites and diseases.
The majority of beeks here are medicating their hives against these things but they still suffer heavy losses every year.
In Africa they refused to treat their bees and after three years of heavy losses they now have healthy bees in their country.
The bees learned to coexist with the mites, develop a symbiotic relationship and thrive.
While many still struggle here in the U.S. adding more and more chemicals in the mix.
There are some here that have stopped treating their bees and after heavy losses developed some great stock that can survive without chemical intervention.
I believe this is the same type of thing that happens with livestock.
Its a leap of faith after all we have been told about vaccinating, medicating, and taking measures in advance of anything remotely happening to any of our animals.
For the record, I have never treated my bees with anything including "natural" treatments.
They are on their own, if I lose some because of this then I will breed my survivors for my stock and have bees that can cope with the world around them without my interferance.
However, I would never sit and watch my goats or any of my animals drop like flies rather than treat them if they were ill but I think its better to try and build their immune systems and develop resistance to things naturally whenever possible.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm just learning until I get my goats, so I have nothing useful to add, but  to all that have posted.  I'm learning a lot!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Feb 16, 2010)

thanks for the post TSL!

my hubby is just starting with bees (we got our first hive last year) and he was horrified by all the medicating that was supposed to make them better. it totally railed against the approach we have here for all our critters so he kinda tossed all the 'must dos' and just let them 'bee.'

then he recently read an article about what you are saying and was so glad he wasnt the only one who thought it was all nuts. 

i think the thing that some folks forget is... in farming not every body makes it. keeping the strongest works, diversity works, not over compensating for weakness works in the long run. 

we treat when we have to - and none of our critters suffer...but working with nature is much easier than working against it.


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## the simple life (Feb 16, 2010)

I am really glad to hear about your bees, its the way to go and we do need more beekeepers in the world that aren't throwing chemicals at the bees.

If we had left the bees alone they would have learned to adapt to the mites but people panic about losing their stock and medicate them, I do understand their position about losing stock(and its happening even if you medicate) but its a never ending cycle and something else will just crop up and then you need to medicate for that and that and that.....
I figure I am making an investment by buying colonies from various sources and then keeping whatever makes it through the winter, breed from that stock and introduce others until I have a strong survivor stock.
I have driven to 2 other states to obtain some feral/survivor stock from other bee producers to start my apiary.
I will of course have losses but eventually will have stock that has learned to survive on their own without me medicating or feeding them artificially.
My losses are an investment in my future stock and the only way to get there is take my losses.

If you are interested I have put some information in a thread on Sufficient Self that talks about natural beekeeping.
I went to a chemical free conference last summer and rubbed elbows with all the leading chemical free bee producers from around the country and a lovely gentleman from Sweden who did alot of study with Brother Adam of the Buckfast Abbey Bees.

The way I see it livestock and insects have been on the face of this earth for how many centuries without needing any kind of human intervention so why do they need it so much now?
Should we have left well enough alone?

The way I see it if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Feb 16, 2010)

super! i'll check it out...

see you over on SS


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## chandasue (Feb 16, 2010)

That's really interesting about the chemical-free bees recovering. I lost all my bees last summer for no apparent reason. I don't use any chemicals on them either. I'm taking this summer off from beekeeping to get used to the routine with my goats but perhaps the following year I'll try again after I take the beekeeping class through the MN extension. I feel like I was missing some clue as to the problem and another local beekeeper highly recommended the class. It was really disheartening to see them just dwindle away...


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## the simple life (Feb 16, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your bees. It could have been the stock itself or they may have been exposed to pesticides when they were out collecting nectar, mites, if they go queenless and you don't know it the hive will dwindle and die, any number of things.
I wish you luck next year.


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## chandasue (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks.  It could have been any number of those things. It did go queenless early in the spring but I got a new queen right away and things seemed to pick up again after that. But a month later it was all going down hill again like I lost that queen too. And no disease or mite problem that I could tell anyway. I strongly suspected pesticides from somewhere else being the problem but I just can't be sure. Maybe it was weak stock to begin with, I hadn't thought of that. Chalk it up to experience I guess and try again later.


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## Beekissed (Feb 19, 2010)

That is one reason I am starting out with the top bar hives, as they say allowing the bees to build their own comb cuts down on the survival of varroa mites and keeps the hive much cleaner as none of the comb actually touches the hive body.  

I am also going to try to capture swarms locally by registering with the local extension office.  I'm hoping to find some wild stock in this endeavor.  

I'll have to look for your thread, TSL....I'm very interested in the leave 'em alone style of beekeeping.  It's the way I'm raising my chickens and my sheep also, but I anticipate even less interference with my bees.


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## lorihadams (Mar 5, 2010)

Okay, so for someone just getting started.....how do I make probiotics for my goats? What supplies do I absolutely HAVE to have (I am getting 3 8-10 week old nigis and 1 older doe that cannot be bred) to get started with a natural program? What feed do you recommend? If I can find a feed store to mix grain for me what should I get? I'm a newbie and I am terribly excited but I am a little overwhelmed. I want to keep things as natural as possible so if you could give a person just starting out a list of essentials what would you include?

P.S. Jules, if you read this, I (read everyone) miss you and Bat too!


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## Beekissed (Mar 5, 2010)

lorihadams said:
			
		

> Okay, so for someone just getting started.....how do I make probiotics for my goats? What supplies do I absolutely HAVE to have (I am getting 3 8-10 week old nigis and 1 older doe that cannot be bred) to get started with a natural program? What feed do you recommend? If I can find a feed store to mix grain for me what should I get? I'm a newbie and I am terribly excited but I am a little overwhelmed. I want to keep things as natural as possible so if you could give a person just starting out a list of essentials what would you include?
> 
> P.S. Jules, if you read this, I (read everyone) miss you and Bat too!


Hey, Lori!    I miss you all also!  Weirdness going on over there, threads disappearing and such.  Go figure! :/

I don't know about other folks, but I bought some unpastuerized ACV and made some of my own and am using it in the sheep's water on occasion.  I also mixed some of the same with raw honey and fresh garlic juice and mixed it in their feed.  Sort of a de-wormer, conditioner type measure.  

Found a guy advertising in the locals that offers fresh ground feed sold off his farm that includes barley, oats, corn, alfalfa for $10/100 lb.  I am definitely going to check this guy out and see the quality of his feeds.  I was thinking it would make a great all around stock/poultry feed. 

What do you think, Free?


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## freemotion (Mar 5, 2010)

That is a fantastic price, at least it would be here.  I would have to pay close to triple that, at least, if I could even find it.  I pay about $6-8 for a 50 lb bag of whole grain if I travel a few hundred miles to get it, which will end when my folks sell their house in Maine.

Lori, there are different kinds of probiotics, and I am one for variety in the diet for me, my family, and my animals.  So I use raw ACV (not as much as Bee does, but she can get apples from her orchard and make it....orchard apples here are very pricey and my trees are still on strike.  Otherwise, I'd use it more) but more often I use homemade ferments that are loaded with probiotics and I rotate them...somewhat.

I soak the whole grains with a glug of whey, which innoculates them with lots of good bacteria which grows on the grain.  I rinse it twice a day.  It goes through stages, with different bacteria at different stages....at one point, it smells like sweet yogurt and gets stronger and stronger, then it moves into the sour stages, more vinegary.  Either way it smells edible.  I always sniff anything fermented before eating it myself or feeding it to my animals.  On rare occasions, I have gotten mold, but only if it was already on the grains, and only if I did not have good, live whey, or skipped a rinse.  I usually have two or three buckets going at once, in three different stages, so the rare moldy batch doesn't interrupt my feeding schedule.

I make beet kvass, sauerkraut, and kombucha for the goats, and also kefir for the chickens.  I use kefir whey to innoculate my other ferments and the grains for feeding if I am out of cheesemaking whey (mesophilic or cold process cheeses only.)

I didn't start out doing all this stuff, it was a gradual process, so I hope this doesn't overwhelm you.  I started out just soaking the grains for my older mare to remove phytic acid and make it more digestible for her, which helped her gain weight....on whole oats.  She was on Poulin Senior before, and the soaked oats made a huge difference.  That got me thinking more and more, and when I started fermenting stuff as part of the process of healing my own cranky digestive system, I started experimenting with my critters.

I always head to the fermenting fridge at the first sign of digestive upset in any of my animals.  There is alway a gallon of sauerkraut, at the very least, and kefir.  And kombucha.  And....

I recommend the book Wild Fermentation by Sandor Katz for some instructions.  He has an easy-going way of writing that is not intimidating.  Also, there are some great videos on youtube, I will go get the links for ya.


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## freemotion (Mar 5, 2010)

Here is a little video introducing Sandor and his book.  I think he is great!  6.5 minutes and worth every second:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i77hU3zR-fQ&feature=related

Here is a silly, yet serious, older video addressing our modern fears of germs and leaving food out at room temperature....a big hurdle to overcome when venturing into fermenting.  2.5 minutes and I love his voice:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QdhSFfaoz0&feature=related

This one is the first in a series of seven videos.  I haven't watched them all yet, but they seem really detailed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpQmYmyeVog

This was from a very quick search for "fermenting vegetables."  Enjoy!


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## ksalvagno (Mar 6, 2010)

You would want to transfer the goats over to the new food slowly. Maybe the person you are buying the goats from will give you some of her food so the goats can start out on the food they are used to and then slowly switch over to what you really want to feed them.


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## Beekissed (Mar 6, 2010)

Free, you would have been proud of me today....I fed the sheeples some VERY fermented veggies and fruits...and they LOVED them!   It was like watching great whites in a feeding frenzy!  

Fermented pumpkins, spaghetti squash and apples were the choice menu of the day.


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## FarmerDenise (Mar 17, 2010)

I am hoping to get some goats soon and thought is wise to check out the BYH form. 
Thanks for all the info on here. I will need to do everything as inexpensively as possible. And I prefer doing things the way my great grandmother might have done them. So I love this thread. 
Thanks for starting it Free. 

I am trying to learn as much as possible before I get the goaties, so I can make an intelligent decision.


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## freemotion (Mar 17, 2010)

Looking forward to reading about your reactions to being owned by goats, FD!


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## FarmerDenise (Mar 17, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Looking forward to reading about your reactions to being owned by goats, FD!




I'm owned by chickens, a dog, a rabbit and two cats, why not goats 
Even the house sparrows and humming birds boss me around


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## j.luetkemeyer (Apr 16, 2010)

I have a free choice mineral mix that contains garlic, dried apple cider vinegar, diamotacious earth, yeast cultures, etc.  I know many people using DE for a de-wormer.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 16, 2010)

Do you do the mix  yourself? Where do you get dried ACV?


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## j.luetkemeyer (Apr 20, 2010)

I get the mix from countryside naturals.  Here is a link to the mix I use.

http://www.countrysidenatural.com/product.php?productid=85&cat=39&page=1


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## mamaluv321 (May 13, 2010)

Ahhh, so much info to digest! I never would have thought of giving goats kombucha or sour krout! Now speaking of feeds, I have a friend who has goats and says the majority of their feed is from the out of date produce at the grocery store. He has 3 or4 that he hit regularly, they even save stuff for him. Now I've been told on here that my friends cafe veg scraps should be used only occasionally and it didn't make any sense to me. The scraps are made up of carrot apple and beet peels, celery ends, mixed greens ect. Nothing post consumer, all scraps from prepping. I thought this would be great for them as long as I make sure they get their fill of hay as well. Any thoughts? And what about corn in feeds? Just a filler?


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## freemotion (May 13, 2010)

I feed veggie scraps...in the fall, I feed lots of pumpkins and squash that I glean from the farm next door.  Just get them used to it gradually and divide it between morning and evening feedings if you have a lot.  

I don't feed corn to my goats.  It is not really useful for them....maybe for meat goats, I don't know, but for dairy, well, I don't feed it.  I might put a tablespoon or so of whole corn kernels in my pocket as a bribe now and then, and they love it, but like candy bars for me, it is a rare treat for them.

I would grab that prep scrap in a heartbeat.  Vegetable matter starts breaking down as soon as it is cut, so feed it right away or refrigerate it.


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## mamaluv321 (May 13, 2010)

That was my plan, they fill almost a 5 gallon bucket every morning! As a bonus the cafe is about 3-4 minutes drive down the road. Good to know, I read somewhere that beet could be bad because the amount of calcium in them, and goats get...gall or kidney stones? Or cacifications?


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## freemotion (May 13, 2010)

5 gallons is a LOT of veggies each day....you need a pig!  I don't remember how many goats you have, but that is a lot unless you have a few goats.  I have six now and have only fed maybe 2-3 quarts per day, divided, to a large, lactating or pregnant doe along with free choice hay.  I introduce it slowly and watch the poo.  The moment it looks the least bit clumpy, I back off.

That is a serious amount of scrap!  Another thing to consider is to go through it carefully, as not everyone remembers to keep trash out of the scraps.  Also, you want to re-chop some of it so no greedy goat chokes.  I run a lot of stuff right through the food processer, chopping enough for 2-3 days at a time, and keeping the pail on a cool porch in winter or in my second fridge in warm weather.


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## mamaluv321 (May 14, 2010)

Thanks for the tip on food processing, wouldn't have thought of that! I don't actually have my goats yet, but I'm planning on three. And all the kids that work at the cafe are pretty good about what goes in the bucket cause right now it goes to a community compost project. If I want to mix my own grains, what should I use, approximately? And salt lick versus loose minerals? I have no experience w that so...? Thanks everyone! Especially Free, you are a wealth of information!!


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## freemotion (May 14, 2010)

Take what I say with a grain of salt (pun intended) as I am learning, too.  For example, I used to offer block salt along with loose salt and loose minerals because that is what I had...the block was leftover from my horse, and the two goats I had at the time preferred it.  They did fine with it, too.

Then I got a neglected dairy doe, starved and weak.  It took a year, but now she shows copper deficiency.  When I first spotted the signs many months ago, I removed the block and the loose salt and now just serve loose minerals.  Live and learn.

I suspect that five gallons of veggies a day is going to be too much, but I would take it all anyways.  Compost what you don't use, or, as I said, get a pig.  A pig can eat the entire bucket and turn it into pork for you!

And three goats turns into 9 goats in one season if you breed them.... 

I don't mix grains because in my book, grains are merely a supplement, not a main part of the diet.  I am a huge fan of a diet that is as widely varied as possible.  I vary their diet with grass and alfalfa hay, as many different veggie scraps as they can get, and leafy branches brought in when they've again de-nuded all the brush in my pasture.  The only grain I feed is sprouted barley, and only to the ones that need it.  Right now that is the two lactating does.  When I can't get barley, I switch to oats.  Corn is used as pocket treats for training and bribes.


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