# Which to keep, which to let go...



## greenfamilyfarms (Nov 5, 2010)

I need help choosing 2 or 3 does to keep. They will basically just be for our enjoyment since we are not in a place where we can show them or produce them for meat. All of the does are due to kid in either Jan or Feb 2011. We are selling part of our herd to make room for a couple of milk does. I'm undecided about selling my Buck quite yet since it will be 18 months before the milk does will be old enough to breed. Any input on what to do with our Buck will be appreciated also.

I've reached my picture upload limit, so I've included links to the pictures on our website. So, in no particular order, here are the does:

*1. Alexis*
Traditional 100% Fullblood registered doe: MJPS Alexis. She is 2-teated, a good mother, has good feet, very easy kidder that produces show quality kids. She is exposed to a red buck. Nice, calm personality, but a little skittish. She is the easiest doe to handle once you get your hands on her and will stand without tying to trim hooves. Good mothering abilities and she is a big gal.
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=98302918

*2. Rosey*
Red Paint 100% Fullblood registered doe from Vaden Boers in Sunbury, NC. This is a sweetheart and a show prospect. She has nice feet and was one in a set of triplets. Her registration and pedigree can be seen in the photo gallery under VAD Chili's Bluegrass Rosey. She is the sister to the Red doe below. Sweet personality to the point she comes up to be petted. Her ears are folded at the ends. First kidding in Jan.
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94713685
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94713688
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94713689

*3. Ruby*
Solid Red 100% Fullblood registered doe from Vaden Boers in Sunbury, NC. Sister to the above paint doe. Her registration and pedigree can be seen in the photo gallery under VAD Chili's Carolina Ruby. She is the sister to the Paint doe above. Sweet like her sister, but a little more reserved. Gets bullied. First kidding in Jan.
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94713686
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748150

*4. Dark-head Doe #1 and #2*
2 Dark-headed commercial does. This is a mother-daughter pair. The daughter was our first born kid and we retained her due to her size and the nice, dark head she inherited from her mother. Both are not registered. Have some Nubian influence down the line. Doe #1 Has kidded twice here on the farm and has nice looking kids when bred to a registered buck, but "ok" kids (such as her kid seen below) with another Boer/Nubian buck. This mother-daughter pair are best friends and are always together.
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748148
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94715057
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94956186

*5. Dark-head Doe #2 (daughter of above doe)*
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94713682
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748149
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748152

*6. Light-head Doe*
Light brown-headed commercial doe. This kid was also born her on our farm. This doe has always had excellent FAMACHA scores and is deep-bodied. Has some Nubian influence down the line. Not registered. The wildest doe here. Almost impossible to catch since she is also very fast.
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748151
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=94713684
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748153


----------



## CrimsonRose (Nov 5, 2010)

ok I would keep Alexis because I love that name (my oldest daughter is named Alexis.. LOL) 

I really like Ruby think she is pretty! 

and I like this pic just because it's comical!  
http://greenfamilyfarms.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=104748151


----------



## cmjust0 (Nov 5, 2010)

Just to make it easier...

*Alexis*








*Rosey*















*Ruby*











*Dark-deaded doe #1*











*Kids of dark-headed doe #1, sired by Boer/Nubi cross buck*







*Dark-headed doe #2*















*Light-headed doe*


----------



## cmjust0 (Nov 5, 2010)

I'd sell Alexis, Rosey, and Ruby, and I'd keep dark-headed does #1 and #2, plus the light-headed doe.

Reason being, the dark and light headed does are hybrids, and hybrids are almost always healthier and hardier than purebreds -- in my experience, anyway.  Plus, if you're just in it for enjoyment and aren't planning on doing any showing, any goat will work, so it only make sense to me to keep the cheap ones and trade the registered ones for cash.

That's me, though.  

If I felt it necessary to keep at least one of the registered does, I'd keep Alexis and sell the light-headed doe.  Reason being, she's correctly colored whereas Rosey and Ruby are nearly solid red.  I just happen to like white goats..  White goats -- IN MY HIGHLY SPECULATIVE OPINION -- have a lower mineral requirement than colored goats on account of not having to use mineral to add pigment to hair.  Copper, mostly.  And goats that run continually low on copper tend to have other problems...breeding, parasites, lameness, etc.

But, again, that's just me speculating.

That's what I'd do, though.


----------



## chandasue (Nov 5, 2010)

I'd keep Rosey and Ruby but my vote is strictly aesthetics. I'm just not a fan of mostly white goats.   CM's reasons are much more "practical"...


----------



## Dreaming Of Goats (Nov 5, 2010)

You should keep all of them... HAHA!


----------



## greenfamilyfarms (Nov 5, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I'd sell Alexis, Rosey, and Ruby, and I'd keep dark-headed does #1 and #2, plus the light-headed doe.
> 
> Reason being, the dark and light headed does are hybrids, and hybrids are almost always healthier and hardier than purebreds -- in my experience, anyway.  Plus, if you're just in it for enjoyment and aren't planning on doing any showing, any goat will work, so it only make sense to me to keep the cheap ones and trade the registered ones for cash.
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting the pictures! That definitely makes things easier. 

We had thought about both of those options, with me being pulled towards the second: keep Alexis and the 2 dark-head does. Those 2 are attached at the hip, so if we keep one, I would really like to keep the other. 

You know, I had not thought about/heard about the colored goats having a higher mineral requirement. So that's why I am having such a hard time keeping their body condition up even though they are in general good health. Geez. Why didn't I think of that?


----------



## cmjust0 (Nov 5, 2010)

greenfamilyfarms said:
			
		

> Thank you for posting the pictures! That definitely makes things easier.
> 
> We had thought about both of those options, with me being pulled towards the second: keep Alexis and the 2 dark-head does. Those 2 are attached at the hip, so if we keep one, I would really like to keep the other.


That's why I didn't suggest keeping one or the other dark headed doe...I don't like splitting mamas and babies either.  



> You know, I had not thought about/heard about the colored goats having a higher mineral requirement. So that's why I am having such a hard time keeping their body condition up even though they are in general good health. Geez. Why didn't I think of that?


You didn't think of it because it's highly speculative and may very well be 100% FALSE.



I tend to have more problems with my darker goats than my lighter ones, and I asked another producer -- a Boer guy -- if he ever noticed whether his paints and solids were any harder or easier to keep than his traditionals..

He pretty much said they're usually nothing but trouble..

So, I mentioned the mineral thing and he seemed to think it made some sense...but still, that's just two people pondering.

I will, however, point out that Ruby's rockin' a pretty classic "fishtail," and the end of Rosey's tail looks a little thin too..  That usually indicates some type of mineral deficiency.  

Your white goats' tails, on the other hand, look pretty ok.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Nov 5, 2010)

Well I personally think the mineral thing might lean on the false side, and I tend to think color fading (esp of black animals) is purely from the sunlight (like it is with black horses), so that doesn't influence my decision.  

I'd keep Alexis and the dark headed doe #1 (the dam) and her daughter (because you said you'd want to keep both) and sell the rest.  Ruby and Rosey are cute, but IMO they're not impressive as meat animals.  Could be just the pics though. I'd also sell the light headed wild girl, because I don't like having a wild one in the group.   I had a ewe that was always skittish and she'd ruin it by alerting the flock I was up to something (I guess she was the smart one ).  

That's just my personal opinion though.


----------



## Calliopia (Nov 5, 2010)

Just to chime in on the coloring via mineral supplementation thing. 


Had a rescue doe earlier this year who was solid WHITE.  Had been fed nothing but yard grass and corn for 2 years. By the time we'd had her 2 months she had a dusky cape and after 5 she was full on brown from her shoulders up.


----------



## cmjust0 (Nov 5, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Well I personally think the mineral thing might lean on the false side, and I tend to think color fading (esp of black animals) is purely from the sunlight (like it is with black horses), so that doesn't influence my decision.


Sun fading doesn't explain consistent fading of the hair on the lower rear legs.  If you were going to get sun fade, you'd see it on the back, sides, etc.


----------



## dragonlaurel (Nov 5, 2010)

Big disclaimer- I don't have goats yet, so this is just my ideas:

Alexis should definitely stay. Sounds like she has all the qualities that are important for breeding a great herd or more valuable kids. She is also easy to work with and that makes your life easier. 

Rosie sounds like a keeper too. Being good in shows is also good advertising for your farm.  Being a triplet is a good sign about her potential breeding capabilities. 

Ruby should probably be kept till she kids,  at least.  She's gorgeous ( I love her coloring! ) and sweet-  with a good pedigree also.  If she is a good Mama and births easily, she would be valuable to you.
My only reservation with her is that she gets bullied. Growing up a bit more may stop that, or  becoming a Mama may give her more confidence to defend herself and kids.  But if the bully injured her badly- you could be out the money you spent getting and caring for her.  She also seemed a bit smaller than the others, but she may be still growing. 

6. Light-head Doe
Light brown-headed commercial doe. This kid was also born her on our farm. This doe has always had excellent FAMACHA scores and is deep-bodied. Has some Nubian influence down the line. Not registered. The wildest doe here. Almost impossible to catch since she is also very fast.
I think she deserves a name- maybe something like Windy, since she is hard to catch and rushes around ...  Sounds like she has great genes for healthy kids. Maybe she will tame down some. I'd  at least keep a kid from her, since parasite resistance is great for a herd.  

4 and 5-  Mother and daughter are fine but should only bred to great bucks. You already have some great foundation stock, so it's up to you if you want to keep them or not.

fixed typo


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Nov 5, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I certainly agree that lack of minerals can cause a dull coat, I'm just not sure that a colored goat will use more minerals than a white goat.


----------



## Roll farms (Nov 5, 2010)

Here's my theory on hair color fading in the hindquarters of goats....they lay on bedding....urine is known to bleach out / stain fur.

My white boers turn reddish / brown in the same area when they lay in really wet bedding (late winter, when the stalls start to really build up.)

Coincidentally, the blue / black does turn reddish in the same spot.

*lightbulb*

I'm not saying a lack of minerals won't turn a goat's coat funky....but I'm not buying that every dark goat who's reddish on their rear is suffering from a mineral deficiency.  Or that all colored goats are high maintenance.

I have a solid black obe who's entire coat (not just her rump area) turned reddish.  I had her blood tested, her copper levels were low...we upped her copper intake (w/ red cell and copper sulfate) and her coat turned black again.  
Towards the end of winter, her back end was turning red again and I had her (and some other does) copper levels tested....she was at the wayyyy high end of the 'safe' copper levels.

There is a black doe who is here visiting (being bred) who lives in the cleanest conditions in the world at home (that I've seen)...SOLID black, not a cast of red to her anywhere...but her coat is rough and curly.  Her eyelids look fine.  She does not get free choice mineral at home....I'd bet money she IS copper (and probably other minerals) deficient....and I intend to convince her owner to get her on free choice mineral when she goes home.
But again...her coat COLOR is fine.

My theory on why colored goats can be so much punier than others is that they're (usually) more line / inbred to get said color...which we know lowers hardiness in general.

I've got some colored goats who seem a bit more high maintenance than others...then I've got other colored goats who aren't.  But....I've got the same thing w/ traditional does.



But I have not found the colored goats eating more mineral than the others, nor have I found them to be more 'prone' to worms or coccidia.

It's been my experience that generally, the higher the % of boer blood, the higher maintenance they are.  Throw line breeding for color in there, and you only make it worse....but don't blame the color itself.

-----

When you say, "100% pure blood", you mean "Fullblood", I'm assuming...?
For clarity's sake you might want to stick to using"Fullblood" because "Pure blood" could be mistaken for "Purebred" which is another classification of boers.  There are Fullblood, Purebred, and American percentage...the % of boer blood goes down w/ ea. level.

-----

Finally....I would keep Alexis and the light headed commercial doe.
Alexis, I like her size and manageability.  Light head b/c of her hardiness.

The red does seem on the small side (typical w/ red goats) and if you won't seperate 1 and 2 then...you can't keep 1...but if you were willing to, I'd be tempted to keep her as a proven good mom.

But again, if it's purely for pets....keep the ones YOU like.
If you want to breed awesome goats...keep the biggest, hardiest, best moms.
If you want to sell pedigrees, keep the best pedigrees.
(This is why we have so many small / poor performing boers now...too many are kept b/c they look good on paper but don't perform.)

Me, I'm working on 2 teated, hardy boers....trying to, anyway....I will keep / breed a 4 teater, but *only* if she's got some other great quality, and I try to only breed them to a 2 teated buck.
I will NOT keep or breed a doe who constantly needs deworming, hoof trimming, etc. to survive.  

YOU have to decide what you want to produce....then base your choice on that.


----------



## Heartlandrabbitry (Nov 6, 2010)

Dreaming Of Goats & Sheep said:
			
		

> You should keep all of them... HAHA!


That's what I was going to say!!


----------



## greenfamilyfarms (Nov 6, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> My theory on why colored goats can be so much punier than others is that they're (usually) more line / inbred to get said color...which we know lowers hardiness in general.
> 
> -----
> 
> ...


You know, you may be on to something about the line/inbred thing. The colored does (Rosey and Ruby - plus their triplet brother) were the result of a sister-brother breeding. I have just remembered that. So, that could be another reason why they are not growing as quickly as the other kids their age. Their DOB was 4/6/2009, making them 19 months old today. They should really be bigger, I would think. I really noticed this size difference when we brought Alexis home and seen how huge she looks compared to them, even though she is an older doe. Her bone structure is just so much different.

Oops! Thanks for reminding me of that. Folks around her have trouble with the term "fullblood" but if a mistake can be made about what % they are by me using that wording, I'm going to correct it.

Thanks everybody for your input. It looks like since we will just be keeping them for our enjoyment and maybe for the production of market kids, we'll be keeping 1, maybe 2, of the Boer/Nubi crosses.


----------



## jodief100 (Nov 6, 2010)

I would recommend getting rid of the brother-sister breed goats.  Line breeding has its benefits though with some significant risks.  When it is done it needs to be done carefully and ALWAYS to different generations, father-daughter, grandfather-granddaughter.  Brother to sister is the highest risk and should never be done.  I doubt you will get any good genetics from a sister-brother cross.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Nov 6, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> I would recommend getting rid of the brother-sister breed goats.  Line breeding has its benefits though with some significant risks.  When it is done it needs to be done carefully and ALWAYS to different generations, father-daughter, grandfather-granddaughter.  Brother to sister is the highest risk and should never be done.  I doubt you will get any good genetics from a sister-brother cross.


Yeah, close breeding like mother/son, father/daughter, brother/sister is inbreeding, not linebreeding.


----------



## ThornyRidge (Nov 6, 2010)

just want to say I have an accidental inbred mini nubian  (son got back in with mom) and she is beautiful!  and amazingly not retarded!

as far as my 2cents.. I tend to like the colors in boers and would prob go with the darker ones and the red one!  I had a solid 100% boer doe that was a beauty!  unfortunately trauma took her at a young age (internal damage from other goats beating her up).. I wish I still had her around to see what a true beauty she would have grown into!  good luck in whatever you decide.


----------



## Kenneth Flippen (Nov 7, 2010)

wish you were closer I like the red doe and her sister I would like to add a boer to dairy goats


                                  Kenneth Flippen


----------



## greenfamilyfarms (Nov 7, 2010)

Kenneth Flippen said:
			
		

> wish you were closer I like the red doe and her sister I would like to add a boer to dairy goats
> 
> 
> Kenneth Flippen


Yeah, mapquest says you are about a 4 hour drive from me.


----------

