# Anyone have GRAIN FREE dairy goats?



## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 4, 2020)

I’m just curious if anyone raises their dairy goats without grain, and why/why not?

I keep hearing that Goats need grain, but also to limit/cut grain because of bloat. Is there an alternative? Alfalfa perhaps? Is that too expensive or ineffective? Doesn’t it increase milk production? What are the perks to grain versus alfalfa, forage, hay, etc.?


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 6, 2020)

Bump


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## Baymule (Jun 6, 2020)

I don't have dairy goats, but I have "absorbed" some goat wisdom by virtue of being on BYH.    I have sheep. A lactating animal needs proper nutrition to produce milk, more nutrition to produce more milk. Just my observation, if you expect a goat to provide you with delicious fresh milk, you have to provide the goat with the means to produce that milk.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 6, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I don't have dairy goats, but I have "absorbed" some goat wisdom by virtue of being on BYH.    I have sheep. A lactating animal needs proper nutrition to produce milk, more nutrition to produce more milk. Just my observation, if you expect a goat to provide you with delicious fresh milk, you have to provide the goat with the means to produce that milk.


Yes, totally agree. Mostly wondering what nutrition they’re getting from grain that they wouldn’t from forage, hay, and alfalfa, etc. Maybe it is just a calorie thing? I’ve always been curious!


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## farmerjan (Jun 6, 2020)

If you are diligent, you can do dairy animals without grain.  You have to have the forages tested for protein levels and should also have other things figured in.  By feeding a specific amount of grain, you can control the amount of protein, and other nutrients more easily than constant testing forages.  If you buy hay from Joe, then go buy some from Bill, then get a deal from John, each different hay should be tested.  The amounts and kinds of fertilizers they use will change the nutritional value of the hay/forage.  How it is made, the quality of the hay, getting cut at optimal nutrition levels, getting made without getting wet, not over mature.....all factor in.  
Dairy farmers nearly all have nutritionists that take forage samples of each crop after it is put in the silo, the hay, the corn silage, the wheatledge, the rye haylage..... everything.  Then they will come up with a formula of what needs to be added to produce an AVERAGE X lbs of milk.  You are looking at vitamins and mineral packs that are added to the mixers that mix all the forages together for them to feed a blended and NUTRITIONALLY BALANCED product.

What I am trying to show by example..... is that the dairy animals today have been bred to "way over produce" for their own offspring.  For someone wanting to milk them, that is great so you get the milk.  As @Baymule  said, if you want more milk, they need the nutrients to not only produce the milk, but to also feed their own body so they stay in good flesh, so their reproductive systems get back in a healthy state so they will breed back.  Granted a cows longer gestation will make it more critical because she needs to have a calf every year and carries for 9 months, so she only has 3 months to get back into the swing of it and get bred back..... a goat having a shorter gestation, she can have a little more time to put on weight if you are only going to have her kid once a year. 

Most GOOD grain rations, that are for lactating animals, have added vitamins and minerals..... they have been balanced to provide the basics so that the animal is not mal-nourished.  Quantities will help with the body being able to put some of that feed to just milk and not body maintainance.  

Alfalfa is great protein, has many micro minerals due to the root systems that go down much deeper than many of the normal hay crops...... BUT it is something that they can bloat on very easily.... if it is grazed, especially in the spring/lush growth time..... as well as clovers.... It is very stemmy if allowed to grow too long.  We don't grow it because we just don't have the time to devote to making it right.  1st cutting of alfalfa is nearly always chopped for haylage here and then later cuttings the stems aren't near as stemmy and make better hay.  Less waste.

Grain is a cheaper and easier way to balance a ration if everything else isn't real good.  @Mike CHS  does a phenomenal job with rotating his pastures and gets exceptional growth on his lambs off his ewes.  Most do not and can not do that good.  And I do believe that he fees some grain to his lambs early on.
If your pastures are limited, then grain will provide what you cannot because you do not have the space/area  to be able to grow sufficient grass/forage to keep it in a vegetative state that is optimal for growth. 

It is also a great training tool..... our cows come to a bucket when called and the calves (lambs, kids, pigs etc.)  learn right along with them.  We are the good guys, they get treats that come in those buckets.....Makes catching/loading even having to get an animal caught that is injured or has a problem,,,, soooooo much easier.


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## farmerjan (Jun 6, 2020)

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a book.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jun 6, 2020)

It would be the % of protien....there is much more protien in grain than in forage.....dairy goats need extra protien to produce milk and stay healthy....even meat goats need some while nursing young....goats are also sensitive to excessive protien in their diet and it can cause issues too.....such as ya mentioned "bloat"......grain is not a bad thing, but a very necessary thing for most livestock to be healthy and productive.......


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 6, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> If you are diligent, you can do dairy animals without grain.  You have to have the forages tested for protein levels and should also have other things figured in.  By feeding a specific amount of grain, you can control the amount of protein, and other nutrients more easily than constant testing forages.  If you buy hay from Joe, then go buy some from Bill, then get a deal from John, each different hay should be tested.  The amounts and kinds of fertilizers they use will change the nutritional value of the hay/forage.  How it is made, the quality of the hay, getting cut at optimal nutrition levels, getting made without getting wet, not over mature.....all factor in.
> Dairy farmers nearly all have nutritionists that take forage samples of each crop after it is put in the silo, the hay, the corn silage, the wheatledge, the rye haylage..... everything.  Then they will come up with a formula of what needs to be added to produce an AVERAGE X lbs of milk.  You are looking at vitamins and mineral packs that are added to the mixers that mix all the forages together for them to feed a blended and NUTRITIONALLY BALANCED product.
> 
> What I am trying to show by example..... is that the dairy animals today have been bred to "way over produce" for their own offspring.  For someone wanting to milk them, that is great so you get the milk.  As @Baymule  said, if you want more milk, they need the nutrients to not only produce the milk, but to also feed their own body so they stay in good flesh, so their reproductive systems get back in a healthy state so they will breed back.  Granted a cows longer gestation will make it more critical because she needs to have a calf every year and carries for 9 months, so she only has 3 months to get back into the swing of it and get bred back..... a goat having a shorter gestation, she can have a little more time to put on weight if you are only going to have her kid once a year.
> ...


Thank you. This is definitely the kind of information I was looking for.

If I am understanding you correctly, and don’t let me put words in your mouth, it sounds like it *can* be done, likely on a small scale. Perhaps with alfalfa pellets versus fresh hay or pastures, and a careful eye on hay quality and other supplements? 

I’ve been considering experimenting with a grain free herd. We do not feed our animals soy, which makes buying commercial grain almost impossible. We have to source it locally and get a custom blend, which is fine. Recently had someone approach me about feeding “gluten free” for sensitivities and it got me curious. Not sure I’m up for it but the wheels in my head are turning!


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 6, 2020)

CntryBoy777 said:


> It would be the % of protien....there is much more protien in grain than in forage.....dairy goats need extra protien to produce milk and stay healthy....even meat goats need some while nursing young....goats are also sensitive to excessive protien in their diet and it can cause issues too.....such as ya mentioned "bloat"......grain is not a bad thing, but a very necessary thing for most livestock to be healthy and productive.......


Makes sense. I have often thought about the fact that goats in the wild don’t eat grain besides some seed heads in the Fall, and instead stick more to broadleaf grasses and leaves of trees & bushes. Not much grain to be had, yet they produce healthy young. On the other hand, none of us raise wild goats! We have domesticated ones that have been bred to accommodate grain as part of their diet. And wild goats aren’t on demanding milk schedules, of course! Very interesting discussion, thank you.


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## farmerjan (Jun 6, 2020)

I am not sure that the gluten in grain is actually translated into the milk but I am not one to say that with authority.   It would be something good to look at.  There is a grazing magazine(paper)  called Stockman Grass Farmer.  It is all about growing grass, as pastures/hay you name it.  It might be something you want to look at.  TSC used to carry it for someone who might want to try it.... they might send a single issue for a price.  I am not a goat person..... 

I have my "grain" mixtures made custom at a local mill.  They use very little "by products" using more all grain type rations.  I get the DE put in it, I get the kelp for micronutrients,.  Get all our feeds done pretty much custom.  We feed a "calf feed: that is a sweet feed 14%,  and I get a custom blend of 17% protein pellets and I mix both for the dairy cows that I milk or have calves on the nurse cows.   I get the layer mixed custom also because I want the DE in it.  16% layer and they stay fat and sassy and lay good.  The meat birds grow good on it without all the leg problems from the higher protein, growing rations that puts the meat on them.   The sheep get the same pellets and sweet feed , but again I don't have goats.


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## CntryBoy777 (Jun 6, 2020)

Something ya aren't considering....nuts, like acorns, grass and weed seeds....also has to be considered, because they have varying protein levels.....we fed our meat goats a small amount of pellets 2 times daily...just for routine and ability to get them to where we needed them to be....pellets rattlin' in a plastic cup sure gets some "attention"....but we didn't have any "production", so they could've been fine on no grain, as I sowed winter crops for them to forage in winter....the 3 goats we had didn't eat but a bale of hay a month...our 12 ducks went thru 2 bales...we used it as their bedding....


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 7, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> I am not sure that the gluten in grain is actually translated into the milk but I am not one to say that with authority.   It would be something good to look at.  There is a grazing magazine(paper)  called Stockman Grass Farmer.  It is all about growing grass, as pastures/hay you name it.  It might be something you want to look at.  TSC used to carry it for someone who might want to try it.... they might send a single issue for a price.  I am not a goat person.....
> 
> I have my "grain" mixtures made custom at a local mill.  They use very little "by products" using more all grain type rations.  I get the DE put in it, I get the kelp for micronutrients,.  Get all our feeds done pretty much custom.  We feed a "calf feed: that is a sweet feed 14%,  and I get a custom blend of 17% protein pellets and I mix both for the dairy cows that I milk or have calves on the nurse cows.   I get the layer mixed custom also because I want the DE in it.  16% layer and they stay fat and sassy and lay good.  The meat birds grow good on it without all the leg problems from the higher protein, growing rations that puts the meat on them.   The sheep get the same pellets and sweet feed , but again I don't have goats.


Thank you! I am a subscriber to Stockman Grass Farmer already. It is a great little journal but directed more toward commercial growers. I have 2.5 acres, about half of which is woods, so I fear intensive rotational grazing is not in my future. But a girl can dream, right? 

The gluten does translate into eggs and meat with chickens, for example, (as does soy and all the phytoestrogens that come with it!) but I have not found info about transferring to milk. Likely it does. I myself don’t have a huge gluten issue, so convincing me to change my entire feeding routine around that is probably going to be tough!

I love the idea of the custom blend having DE and kelp in it. I’ll have to check with my “guy” and see if I can change up my recipes. We feed our birds (guineas and ducks, and twice yearly freedom ranger meat chickens) a 20% Broiler feed that is soy free and nonGMO. The hog feed and goat feed we get are also soy free and nonGMO but can’t remember the percentages on those. For the Broiler feed, they use fish meal instead of soy for the protein, not exactly the “natural diet” I’m looking for with most poultry but I guess it works out, and fits well for our ducks.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 7, 2020)

CntryBoy777 said:


> Something ya aren't considering....nuts, like acorns, grass and weed seeds....also has to be considered, because they have varying protein levels.....we fed our meat goats a small amount of pellets 2 times daily...just for routine and ability to get them to where we needed them to be....pellets rattlin' in a plastic cup sure gets some "attention"....but we didn't have any "production", so they could've been fine on no grain, as I sowed winter crops for them to forage in winter....the 3 goats we had didn't eat but a bale of hay a month...our 12 ducks went thru 2 bales...we used it as their bedding....


Point well taken about the nuts and seeds! My girls go crazy for acorns, and I’ve definitely watched them go out of their way for Grass and weed seeds. And you’re very right about the sound of those pellets 😆


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## Mini Horses (Jun 7, 2020)

@farmerjan has provided a nicely detailed explanation!  Forages vary greatly.   Supplementation assures nutrition is provided.

You must consider that "wild" isn't the same as years back -- with the civilizing of most areas & chemicals.  BUT -- many of the "natural" browse growth can provide varying degrees of protein, sugars, tannins, roughage at different stages of growth.  Plus weather affects them, as well as the nutritional content of the soils..  So browsing animals can taste this and eat accordingly -- sometimes not in a good way. LOL     As said, nuts, seed, fruits/berries, leaves & bark, even dirt,  can supply vit/min/proteins, etc.   

As to the fish meal -- more natural than you may first think.  All fowl eat bugs, worms, fish, other meats, with gusto!   

The type of goats you raise makes a difference in their feed needs -- high producers require more -- like the cattle.   Plus many goats can be "milked through", thus not breeding every year.   Our own desire for these animals to  provide a set quantity, for a set time, demands far more nutritional requirements than just kidding and  nurturing their offspring to weaning.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 7, 2020)

Excellent points all around. These animals definitely have to produce more than in their wild state. Makes me thankful for all the farmers growing feed for animals, that’s for sure!

As far as the fish goes, I just meant that I haven’t seen a chicken catching fish from a pond... but they are kind of crazy so I would not put it past them 😆 they definitely love their animal products. My birds like clabbered milk too. But can you blame them?


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## Tatiana Blackburn (Jun 10, 2020)

WildersMilkMaid said:


> I’m just curious if anyone raises their dairy goats without grain, and why/why not?
> 
> I keep hearing that Goats need grain, but also to limit/cut grain because of bloat. Is there an alternative? Alfalfa perhaps? Is that too expensive or ineffective? Doesn’t it increase milk production? What are the perks to grain versus alfalfa, forage, hay, etc.?


I have Nigerian Dwarf goats and I usually feed them Timothy grass. I know you can’t feed a castrated males alfalfa due to risk of urinary tract infection. I usually supplement with high milk producing grain when they’re bred and for 2 months after they kid.  My girls do produce good quality milk but will usually not milk them until babies start weaning.


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## rachels.haven (Jun 10, 2020)

If you feed premium alfalfa, and alfalfa pellets AND have easy keeping, lower producing animals you should be able to skip the grain. Good luck keeping them on the stand though, lol. They're not going to hand you the milk. It's an exchange in their minds. No grain, no milk for you.

The Blue cactus dairy goats farmer uses just a bit of scratch for her dairy does, but they do the alfalfa and pellets in the stall, then tie them to the stand for milking. It works for her.

I prefer my goats better behaved. Plus, the majority of mine are 3x as large as hers and getting kicked would hurt more. Also, they'd lose condition and be stressed out.


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## ancient (Jun 10, 2020)

Mine just make more milk on grain, they only get as much as they can eat while being milked . Which I guess is the main point. Maybe all of you have better behaved diary goats then me but I am very doubtful  I'd get them milked out without having a bucket of grain in front of them!


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## D and L Meadows (Jun 10, 2020)

I feed our dairy goats grain.  Some of them could be fine without, but they wouldn't produce near as much milk. Some of them would look like a walking skeleton if they didn’t get grain. Even now, they're thin since every calorie goes straight into milk.


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## D and L Meadows (Jun 10, 2020)

I think grain free dairy goats are possible, just would need to be the right breed and right line of that breed and have high quality pasture and browsing area.  And you'd have to be happy with the amount of milk you get, not aiming for maximum production.


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## D and L Meadows (Jun 10, 2020)

I would love to try feeding just chaffahaye and see what happens to the milk production. Since we do DHI we could make a good comparison. but it’s sooo expensive. We use to feed it and the goats loved it! Made the butterfat higher and we also got more multiples. Got our first set of quints that year. Another alternative would be fodder.  We used to grow that as well,  it it didn’t work out because we had too many mold issues. But that was really nice too.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 10, 2020)

If you have full size diary goats that are high producers, I dont think you could do grain free. Even with grain they are as mentioned skeletons for at least 4-6 weeks and even after then only a slightly filled out skeleton. Our goats are free to roam 12 acres and eat anything they like, they have a hay feeder with 1st cut alfalfa and a round bale of 1st cut grass hay, raspberry bushes, acorns, clover, trefoil, 3 acres of bush popular to browse, grass, rhubarb, apple leaves/trees, loose minerals, etc and when in milk they still need grain.

Also for your animal feed you might as well skip the non-GMO part. Non-GMO is just marketing, just like putting gluten free labels on food that is naturally gluten free like oats, rice, beans, eggs, etc. or cage-free/free range on eggs/meat. 

FDA and USDA have no real rules against marking any carton "Cage-free" or "Free Range" with no certification for either as long as you dont add the word eggs into either. E.g. "Cage Free Eggs". 

For GMO or Non-GMO plants grown commercially...sorry your getting ripped off most of the time. Plants cross pollinate either by wind or insects, so field A is Non-GMO and Field B is GMO which can be literally planted 6 inches apart. They cross pollinate and what do you think they make? Bingo
Yes that just an easy way to say it but go drive anyplace growing row crops that not much different. Fields are often only separated by a road, farm drive, hedge row, tree line, or ditch. Bees alone will travel 2 miles and cross pollinate. 
Add the fact that Field A farmer just has to show his receipt that he planted non-gmo seed, so his product is non-gmo no matter what pollinated it.

Dont get to carried away with the fads or labels on things. Also most of the northern states dont actually use Soy for soy because we can't grow it...still labeled and sold as soy though  

The food industry is crazy.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 10, 2020)

What kind of goats do you have and how many?
Your avatar looks like a couple of nigerian dwarfs?


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## Ridgetop (Jun 10, 2020)

If you have high yielding dairy animals, you are going to have to feed some form of grain. 

Remember that in the wild a doe will produce her kids and nurse them for about 2-3 months, with her milk production tapering off as the kids switch to solid food and wean themselves.  The remainder of the year she is building her body back up for the next round of breeding and gestating a new set of kids.  Wild goats are not high yield milkers.  Humans have bred dairy animals to produce more milk than normal for longer than normal in dairy animals for our benefit.

When you are milking for your home (or raising calves or other animals on the milk), you want to keep the amount of yield up as high as possible.  After all, why feed and milk a dozen goats that are each giving about 8 ounces a day when you can milk one high yielder that is giving a gallon a day?  To get that amount of milk you need to feed grain. 

Hay, forage, etc. are all roughage feeds.  The goat converts them to energy and calories through the action of her 4 chambered stomach and regurgitating her stomach content to chew again (cud) and remove more nutrition from it.  They need roughage for a healthy rumen and healthy goat, BUT they cannot produce enough nutrition, calories, thus energy, from roughage alone IF you are milking them for a 10 month lactation. 

You *need* to grain a milker if you want a steady milk supply for any length of time.  Farmerjan is exactly on point with her description of necessary nutrition for dairy animals.

Also, like MisfitMorgan so wisely said, those "non GMA" and "gluten free" labels are mostly for fad labeling.  Right now everyone is concerned about  "Gluten Free".  Very few people actually have a real problem with gluten or even know what it is.  For a while it was "red meat will kill you", and eating bacon and eggs was a death wish!  Now eggs are healthy again, bacon is not a killer when a part of a healthy varied diet, and even coffee is deemed to be healthy for something or other.  LOL

Frankly, as a person who used to milk 12-15 high yield standard size dairy goats every day on test for a 10 month lactation each, let me just say this.  Dairy animals are already very labor intensive.  You want the most milk for the least amount of labor and cost.  Instead of worrying about trying to come up with some fancy feed mixture, a standard goat or dairy cow grain mix will do the trick easily when combined with free feed forage or hay.

"Challenge" feeding on the milk stand will get you the best results when comparing cost to yield.  Goats only have trouble with grain and bloating when they don't have the need for the extra protein, or gorge themselves on it. 

Thus most cases of bloat occur when a *buck, wether, dry doe or kid *is fed grain.   Those animals do not need any grain at all.  Dairy goats only need grain when milking.  Small amounts of grain can be used to finish off meat goats.  Many owners of pet goats feed grain because they think they have to do it, not because it is necessary.  In fact, too much grain and not enough roughage is dangerous.

In male animals, the calcium in alfalfa can cause urinary calculi if the phosphorus ratio is off.  This can be avoided by the addition of ammonium chloride to their drinking water if they have problems.  I have kept goats and sheep for 30 years now and have  never had one instance of urinary calculi although the only hay I feed is alfalfa.  I do not add ammonium chloride to their water at all.  Perhaps I have been lucky, or it may be that the breeds of goats and sheep I raise have a higher tolerance to excess calcium in the feed.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

Tatiana Blackburn said:


> I have Nigerian Dwarf goats and I usually feed them Timothy grass. I know you can’t feed a castrated males alfalfa due to risk of urinary tract infection. I usually supplement with high milk producing grain when they’re bred and for 2 months after they kid.  My girls do produce good quality milk but will usually not milk them until babies start weaning.


Do you feed them a pelleted Timothy or just the hay? And for the grains, is that pellets or whole grains? 

I think the Nigerians might do better on less grain since they’re “newer”..... but I don’t know that to be true for sure. Just a hunch based on my goats.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 11, 2020)

WildersMilkMaid said:


> Do you feed them a pelleted Timothy or just the hay? And for the grains, is that pellets or whole grains?
> 
> I think the Nigerians might do better on less grain since they’re “newer”..... but I don’t know that to be true for sure. Just a hunch based on my goats.



We have fed pellets, powder and whole grains, our goats are not picky on the form.

Be careful trying to do grain-free, goats as with most prey animals will exhibit little to no symptoms anything is wrong until it is to late. If they are already on the borderline for calorie conversion and anything throw them off it can be a disaster. Whether they get pnemonia, a parasite load, cocci, milk fever, etc having them a little over-conditioned is safer. Make sure you have a good parasite management plan in place.

Also if your goal is milk realize your goats will produce far less and dry off quicker without grain usually. Even a "new" breed.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

I have a confession, you guys. I didn’t disclose this before cuz I was a little worried you’d all be angry. But hopefully you’ll forgive me for this 



Part of my herd is actually GRAIN FREE. Before I decided to start milking my goats, I never fed grain except a few handfuls of oats on very rare occasion. I’ve recently added some new goats who have different diets which I’ll discuss below. As for my grain-free herd members, I have 3 Nigerians Dwarf does with free choice hay  (whatever grasses are available locally, currently orchard mix I believe) & minerals, plus they get a ration of alfalfa pellets and sunflower seeds (is that a grain? Hmm...) twice daily, on the stand or in the stall, depending if they’re in milk or not.



They are from okay-but-not-amazing dairy lines, and I have a first freshener who had quads and is giving me 1/2 gallon of the creamiest milk ever. She is my most robust goat. She nursed her mom for 17 months 😳😆A second (2F, Twins then triplets) gives me a little less, but even creamier. I’m thinking about getting the milk tested because it’s out of this world. The third (2F, triplets then twins) had a kid on her for 3 months before I began milking her so she gives me about 5 cups daily.



Until very recently, I never had any health issues with these girls. If you saw another thread of mine, I have had a mastitis issue in my herd and these 3 were affected (plus myself!). The “new” goats were not being milked until after the problem was identified so I haven’t had any more spread. As someone kindly said, we all start somewhere, and I learned a big lesson on sanitation and have cleaned things up in a major way. 2 of my grain free girls, I was able to clear up naturally. The third is working her way through a round of antibiotics. 



Now onto my “new” Goats, I have a mini LaMancha (pregnant), a 3*M Nigerian Dwarf, an Oberhasli, and a full size La Mancha. All acquired in the last month or so, all in milk except the mini. I thought I would try grain free with them since my original 3 seem to be thriving on it. Slowly weaned them off the grain over the course of 2 weeks just to see how they did.



My mini LaMancha has fattened up (of course, she’s pregnant!) but has also improved her coat. She was not fed much grain by her previous owner and seems to be adjusting fine.



My new Nigerian Dwarf (3F) is only 1.5 weeks fresh but is producing about 10 cups a day. Body and coat have not changed, both were in great condition. She is not thrilled to get up on the stand, but stays there fine. I suspect that has more to do with her not trusting me yet.



The full La Mancha (2F) seems to be adjusting poorly and I have added back grain slowly over the past few days. She had an increase in production but got skinny (and quick!). Probably as many of you were saying, the bigger producers certainly seem to need more calories than what grasses and legumes can provide.



My biggest surprise so far is my Oberhasli (1F). She was near her “peak” when I bought her according to her former owner. She was only producing about 4 pounds a day, approx. 1/2 gallon. Which is why they were getting rid of her. She was not their best Milker. She also had very flaky skin and was quite thin. She was from a quality herd known for taking good care of their animals but the other goats there were pretty thin as well, and I had assumed this was just the body shape of the breed. I switched her over before I did the others, and what a difference! She has fattened up nicely, not “fat” just healthy looking, and stays that way all day! Her skin flakes have disappeared completely and some missing hair on her head has grown back in (I think it was rubbed off on her feed bowl at the previous home). She looks great, but her production increase has been really impressive. From a “near-peak” of 4 pounds a day, she is now producing close to 8 pounds, just under a gallon a day. 



I’m obviously going to keep an eye on them to make sure they maintain healthy form and skin, poop, appetites etc. Not afraid to re-introduce grain as needed, as was the case with the LaMancha (her production has dropped now that she is back on grain, by the way!) as their health is my biggest priority. I’ll be switching their grain ration off of pelleted form, however, as my family does not consume soy or commercially processed foods, and we don’t want our animals to either.



As a homesteader/farmer/milk maid etc it is always a learning experience, and I’m open to experimentation and figuring out what works for our family and our animals.  Probably the dietary needs change based on breed, as well as the production and season of life as many of you have pointed out. I’ll be sure to share the progress as it goes along for anyone who cares to read


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

misfitmorgan said:


> We have fed pellets, powder and whole grains, our goats are not picky on the form.
> 
> Be careful trying to do grain-free, goats as with most prey animals will exhibit little to no symptoms anything is wrong until it is to late. If they are already on the borderline for calorie conversion and anything throw them off it can be a disaster. Whether they get pnemonia, a parasite load, cocci, milk fever, etc having them a little over-conditioned is safer. Make sure you have a good parasite management plan in place.
> 
> Also if your goal is milk realize your goats will produce far less and dry off quicker without grain usually. Even a "new" breed.


Definitely interested to see how long they maintain production. Thank you!


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 11, 2020)

I would say coat improvement is from the BOSS, a lot of people feed it just for that reason. Alfalfa pellets would be considered "grain" I would say. Most local (ruminant)grain here includes alfalfa pellets in the mix, the sweet feed we use is mostly alfalfa pellets with a tiny bit of cracked corn and molasses.

I wouldnt worry about making people here mad, we have pretty thick skin. If your semi-grain free herd is working for you that's awesome. Keep in mind to, anyone that recently freshened won't be showing their true calorie needs for a couple weeks, then a couple more weeks before it's really noticeable. Least thats how our goats do it, they look good for a few weeks after they kid but then suddenly your looking at them going wait why are you skinny??  I would think it would take the same amount of time to see the full effects from taking them off a commercial grain.

We never had a problem with our nigerians or minis but we didnt milk them either. i have heard several people say their nigerians get fat on nothing but grass so maybe their needs are different.

I do know some people with just a dairy cow or two feed nothing on the stand but straight alfalfa pellets and have great results. They are also not demanding top production and pushing for more milk though.

We also only give our goats 1 cup of grain a day. I'm not milking them atm though.

Dont forget loose minerals. That will make a huge different in appearance and milk, as well as they need it.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 11, 2020)

It looks like whatever you are feeding you are doing it right.  What works for one person might not work for another.  Also, depending on what part of the country you are in hay has different nutritional components.  Hay in some areas has good minerals and protein content, in other areas different minerals and protein content.  That is why feeding differs in different parts of the country.

Also, remember that dairy animals differ completely from meat production animals in body type.   You want your meat goats to carry more flesh on them, their rib bones are round, not flat and wide.  Dairy animals, particularly the better yielding specimens, are much more angular in appearance, their hip bones and pin bones are more pronounced, their empty udders are soft and pliable like empty sacks.  If you are used to a meat animal, you might think they are too skinny.  Dairy goats in milk do not carry as much extra flesh on them, especially if they are heavy milkers, but should not be emaciated looking either,  A slight cover on the ribs is desirable, along with a glossy coat and bright eye.  The expression "She puts it all in the pail" was coined for dairy animals because of their angular, sometimes bony appearance.  There is a difference between angularity and starvation of course!

The change in your Oberhasli's appearance and milk yield shows that you are on a good feeding program.  You are an able dairywoman as shown by the fact that you judge your animal by appearance, yield, and appetite.  An old saying is "The eye of the master fattens the flock".  You now your animals and how to adjust to keep them healthy and productive.  In ancient Rome, Pliny the Elder said "The eye of the farmer is the best fertilizer".  Both mean that you know your flock and land, and by being on top of things will keep everything healthy and productive.

Keep it up - looks like yu are doing everything right!


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

I


misfitmorgan said:


> If you have full size diary goats that are high producers, I dont think you could do grain free. Even with grain they are as mentioned skeletons for at least 4-6 weeks and even after then only a slightly filled out skeleton. Our goats are free to roam 12 acres and eat anything they like, they have a hay feeder with 1st cut alfalfa and a round bale of 1st cut grass hay, raspberry bushes, acorns, clover, trefoil, 3 acres of bush popular to browse, grass, rhubarb, apple leaves/trees, loose minerals, etc and when in milk they still need grain.
> 
> Also for your animal feed you might as well skip the non-GMO part. Non-GMO is just marketing, just like putting gluten free labels on food that is naturally gluten free like oats, rice, beans, eggs, etc. or cage-free/free range on eggs/meat.
> 
> ...





misfitmorgan said:


> I would say coat improvement is from the BOSS, a lot of people feed it just for that reason. Alfalfa pellets would be considered "grain" I would say. Most local (ruminant)grain here includes alfalfa pellets in the mix, the sweet feed we use is mostly alfalfa pellets with a tiny bit of cracked corn and molasses.
> 
> I wouldnt worry about making people here mad, we have pretty thick skin. If your semi-grain free herd is working for you that's awesome. Keep in mind to, anyone that recently freshened won't be showing their true calorie needs for a couple weeks, then a couple more weeks before it's really noticeable. Least thats how our goats do it, they look good for a few weeks after they kid but then suddenly your looking at them going wait why are you skinny??  I would think it would take the same amount of time to see the full effects from taking them off a commercial grain.
> 
> ...


I’ll tell you what... I have definitely noticed that the folks on here are much more civil than other “social media” sites. It is a breath of fresh air, for sure! Thanks for your input. I’m so thankful for all the knowledge shared here.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> It looks like whatever you are feeding you are doing it right.  What works for one person might not work for another.  Also, depending on what part of the country you are in hay has different nutritional components.  Hay in some areas has good minerals and protein content, in other areas different minerals and protein content.  That is why feeding differs in different parts of the country.
> 
> Also, remember that dairy animals differ completely from meat production animals in body type.   You want your meat goats to carry more flesh on them, their rib bones are round, not flat and wide.  Dairy animals, particularly the better yielding specimens, are much more angular in appearance, their hip bones and pin bones are more pronounced, their empty udders are soft and pliable like empty sacks.  If you are used to a meat animal, you might think they are too skinny.  Dairy goats in milk do not carry as much extra flesh on them, especially if they are heavy milkers, but should not be emaciated looking either,  A slight cover on the ribs is desirable, along with a glossy coat and bright eye.  The expression "She puts it all in the pail" was coined for dairy animals because of their angular, sometimes bony appearance.  There is a difference between angularity and starvation of course!
> 
> ...


Thank you much for your wisdom and encouragement.


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

D and L Meadows said:


> I would love to try feeding just chaffahaye and see what happens to the milk production. Since we do DHI we could make a good comparison. but it’s sooo expensive. We use to feed it and the goats loved it! Made the butterfat higher and we also got more multiples. Got our first set of quints that year. Another alternative would be fodder.  We used to grow that as well,  it it didn’t work out because we had too many mold issues. But that was really nice too.


I agree on the price of the chaffhaye. I’m not sure it’s worth the cost. I had a problem keeping it from molding when I was buying it, as I only had 2 goats and they would not eat it fast enough. Maybe I should consider that again now that I have 7. 

We have a fodder setup but have not used it. Put all that work into building it and then never go around to it. Hmm. Might get it up and running. I know Weed ‘em & Reap feeds fodder instead of grain on the stand.

My husband is also heavily researching Comfrey and has ordered some to plant. I think it might be really good for our setup as a feed we can grow and store for all our animals to eat. Have you looked into it?


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> If you feed premium alfalfa, and alfalfa pellets AND have easy keeping, lower producing animals you should be able to skip the grain. Good luck keeping them on the stand though, lol. They're not going to hand you the milk. It's an exchange in their minds. No grain, no milk for you.
> 
> The Blue cactus dairy goats farmer uses just a bit of scratch for her dairy does, but they do the alfalfa and pellets in the stall, then tie them to the stand for milking. It works for her.
> 
> I prefer my goats better behaved. Plus, the majority of mine are 3x as large as hers and getting kicked would hurt more. Also, they'd lose condition and be stressed out.


Some of my girls don’t know any better and are happy to stand still for just alfalfa and sunflower seeds... but my others who were accustomed to grain seem less enthusiastic. They tolerate me but don’t seem too happy. My Oberhasli on the other hand seems to genuinely enjoy being milked. She’s a dream, let’s all her milk down with my little hand pump and I’m lucky if I get more than 3 finishing squirts by hand from each side before she’s empty. And for the record, I bought well-trained goats. How they do it, I have no clue, but I appreciate it!


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## WildersMilkMaid (Jun 11, 2020)

ancient said:


> Mine just make more milk on grain, they only get as much as they can eat while being milked . Which I guess is the main point. Maybe all of you have better behaved diary goats then me but I am very doubtful  I'd get them milked out without having a bucket of grain in front of them!


Totally understand that! Some of mine just don’t know any better because they’ve never had it. I’m no good at training goats but I have one who, untrained 1st freshener, stands perfectly still the whole time and does not eat. Just let’s me do my thing!! Now, I have to pick her fat butt up onto the stand because she won’t go up there herself, but that’s another story 😆


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## D and L Meadows (Jun 11, 2020)

WildersMilkMaid said:


> I agree on the price of the chaffhaye. I’m not sure it’s worth the cost. I had a problem keeping it from molding when I was buying it, as I only had 2 goats and they would not eat it fast enough. Maybe I should consider that again now that I have 7.
> 
> We have a fodder setup but have not used it. Put all that work into building it and then never go around to it. Hmm. Might get it up and running. I know Weed ‘em & Reap feeds fodder instead of grain on the stand.
> 
> My husband is also heavily researching Comfrey and has ordered some to plant. I think it might be really good for our setup as a feed we can grow and store for all our animals to eat. Have you looked into it?


The problem we had with fodder is we had it in our basement. So in the spring and fall, they only short window we have when we don’t need AC or heat, it worked great. Other than that, mold on the second day. 

We do have some comfrey. I’ve not really looked into it much. I mainly use it for the rabbits. But we always offer it to does that have just kidded. Some love it, some don’t.


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## farmerjan (Jun 11, 2020)

If you can get the production you want on no grain, and the animals are in good condition, then there is no reason to feed grain.  It also has to do with what they are raised on and some raised on no grain are obviously better adapted to that.  I also think that you probably have some pretty nutritious hay.  
I am not pushing the grain.  I only tried to give someone that appeared to be new to dairy animals, as good of an understanding as I could about the variations in feeds and nutritional requirements.  
Alfalfa pellets are a concentrate.  They are made to a minimum nutritional requirement.  They have to be to be "standardized".  Sunflower seeds are also in the "concentrate" category.  They are a seed, so basically do qualify as a "grain" .  

I hope it continues to work well for you.  That is the most important thing.  It has to work for you, it has to keep the animals healthy and in good condition and allow for enough nutrition that they cycle and can get bred back.  If feeding them thistles does it for you then go for it.  

I used to feed comfrey to my chickens in Ct...... just during the summer months to the breeders that didin't get much "out loose" time.


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## Baymule (Jun 11, 2020)

WildersMilkMaid said:


> I
> 
> 
> I’ll tell you what... I have definitely noticed that the folks on here are much more civil than other “social media” sites. It is a breath of fresh air, for sure! Thanks for your input. I’m so thankful for all the knowledge shared here.



This forum has the nicest, most helpful people you will find anywhere.


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## farmerjan (Jun 11, 2020)

Most everyone is pretty nice..... except for a few of US old codgers, that tend to not have the diplomacy that others have!!!!


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## Tatiana Blackburn (Jun 17, 2020)

WildersMilkMaid said:


> Do you feed them a pelleted Timothy or just the hay? And for the grains, is that pellets or whole grains?
> 
> I think the Nigerians might do better on less grain since they’re “newer”..... but I don’t know that to be true for sure. Just a hunch based on my goats.


The Timothy is hay the grain is pelleted.


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