# Goat diet in late pregnancy- How do you prevent hypocalcemia?



## Green Acres Farm (Aug 30, 2016)

So, I'm a little confused- about half of what I read says to increase calcium intake during late pregnancy with alfalfa or perennial peanut to prevent hypocalcemia, and the other half says to only feed "regular" hay during late pregnancy because their body will "forget" how to get the extra needed calcium from their bones.

Curious what other people know/think.

Thanks!


@Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer @babsbag @OneFineAcre @Fullhousefarm
@frustratedearthmother


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 30, 2016)

Or is the big picture keeping the Ca/P ratio at 2:1?


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## babsbag (Aug 30, 2016)

That is a really good question and it seems that there is no definitive answer.  I have been there, twice...same goat. I feed 100% alfalfa and that didn't stop her from getting it. I don't breed her anymore because of it. To my knowledge the Ca : P does not play into it at all. My vet tells me that we can monitor it and manage it since we know she is susceptible, but it just wasn't worth the risk. I almost lost her the first time, it was Mother's Day and the vet on call was useless. Fortunately I have my vet's home phone and she picked up the call and met me at her clinic. Calcium IV brought her around in a hurry. The next year it was another trip to the vet, but not as severe, however it took her longer to respond to the treatment. 

Everyone I know that has goats in my area feeds 100% alfalfa.  I keep a bottle of calcium gluconate and CMPK on hand just in case.


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## babsbag (Aug 30, 2016)

I haven't read up on this in a few years but I seem to recall that the Merck Vet manual said to feed Ca during late pregnancy. It seems that there was really only one article about withholding Ca but everyone started using that as the standard. For me  it is just one of those things I watch for and I am prepared to treat if needed.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 30, 2016)

Birthing takes a lot of calcium from these gals.   In my minis it would show up like hiccups.  That is, they jumped/flintched as if they had hiccups.  I pumped calcium in them (per my vet) and it went away rather quickly.  After that I fed alfalfa pellets to the late term mares. 

Their body will take what it needs to the detriment of their health, just like making milk for a kid and starving their body if not enough groceries, etc.   I would not want to  put my goat thru that if I knew what was happening.  Mine get alfalfa in some manner while milking.


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## CJ. (Aug 30, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> So, I'm a little confused- about half of what I read says to increase calcium intake during late pregnancy with alfalfa or perennial peanut to prevent hypocalcemia, and the other half says to only feed "regular" hay during late pregnancy because their body will "forget" how to get the extra needed calcium from their bones.
> 
> Curious what other people know/think.
> 
> ...


Losing a beloved goat and many times their kids is most heartbreaking. I lost 2 of my first goats after 5 years of loving them and their unborn kids to goat toxemia because I did not know what it was.
The last 40-50 days of a pregnancy is a critical time and when to closely watch for goat diabetes/toxemia. If the Doe was overweight when breed and/or bred to a large Buck and is carrying multiple large kids, she is high risk. All these applied to my Does. She and the kids should be putting on noticeable weight during this time, but avoid obesity, (just like a human mother), good nutritional, protein and energy levels should be maintained thru out the pregnancy. During this latter stage of pregnancy watch for and avoid infections, avoid/reduce any stressors (such as transporting, weather changes, and do not make feed changes/introduce new feed). At 5-6 weeks Pre-kidding Doe care of Covexin 8, worming and parasite treatment should be given and any needed hoove care IF can be done keeping Doe calm and unstressed. The only oral wormer I use is Valbazen, a white wormer best for the prevention and eratication of tape worms, BUT if you have not used this prior to pregnancy-do not introduce during pregnancy. I have yet to have a kid born with worms. I use pour-in blue Ivermectin for the prevention of other worms and parasites.
If you do not notice the early signs, toxemia will bring a Doe down very quickly. By the time you realize she is not eating and drinking the way she should, is  grinding her teeth, star gazing, lethargic, even a shot of insulin will most likely be ineffective to save her. If you can catch it early enough, before she loses too much weight, there is a recipe that I have used with good result. Out of 2 Does of mine that had toxemia and dosing with the mixture, one (that I did not catch early enough) fought to stay alive to give birth to 3 huge kids and to nurse them even though she was down and I was turning her every hour or so. I put her to sleep the 2d day post kidding. The second goat I knew what to watch for, started her on the mixture and she and her 3 kids survived, although it took almost 5 months of constant care and vigilance (pre to post kidding) to get my Doe back to full health. The mixture is Karo, corn oil and propylene glycol (it is not the anti-freeze fluid). I can not locate my book with the exact measurement of each, but it is in an old edition of 'Goats-Hobby Farms' written by Sue Weaver. It encourages Doe to eat to regain lost weight, gives her energy and brings her sugar level up. I have used this for others goats I have taken care of as well. But remembering, you have to give a goat your will to live because they do not have one of their own and even using this mixture once toxemia has progressed so far, you may be able to save the kids, but more often you will lose your Doe. Should toxemia become an issue during the last couple of weeks prior to kidding and the kids are viable, a C-section is a good consideration.
Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## babsbag (Aug 31, 2016)

@CJ. very good information on Toxemia, thank you.  Pregnancy toxemia/ketosis is caused by the goat not being able to eat enough food to sustain themselves and the fetus. Hypocalcaemia is another issue where the goat cannot utilize the calcium stores in their body. Both can happen around the same time during and after freshening, but they are different.

@Mini Horses   There is no question that the goat needs alfalfa while milking. The theory that many people hold to is that the goat should not get high calcium feed the last month of pregnancy so that the body will draw on its own reserves and not depend on feed. My vet is not entirely sold on that idea.

@Green Acres Farm  I stand corrected on the Ca : P ratio. It appears that the Ca cannot be absorbed without the proper amount of P. Who knew ???  I know that the minerals I feed are designed to fed with a legume (alfalfa) diet to keep the ratio correct.
Very convenient for me since I don't feed dry does any grain which is where they would get the P. Also, both times my doe had this problem is was the day after kidding and both of her labors had been long, like 4-5 hours between kids; another sign of low calcium levels.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 31, 2016)

CJ. said:


> The only oral wormer I use is Valbazen, a white wormer best for the prevention and eratication of tape worms, BUT if you have not used this prior to pregnancy-do not introduce during pregnancy. I have yet to have a kid born with worms. I use pour-in blue Ivermectin for the prevention of other worms and parasites.



Thank you for your post! I'm so sorry about your does.

Did you know you can use Safeguard instead of Valbazen and it is safe for pregnant does?

And you say pour on blue ivermectin- do you mean Cydectin? Ivermectin is clear. Do you give it orally?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2016)

CJ. said:


> I use pour-in blue Ivermectin for the prevention of other worms and parasites.





Green Acres Farm said:


> And you say pour on blue ivermectin- do you mean Cydectin? Ivermectin is clear. Do you give it orally?




_*"Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites."*_
*
"NOTE that the cattle pour-on formulation should NOT be administered to goats orally – this is not permissible under extra-label use law."

http://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_c7a6cc3b624043aeaefe8693f9f13c71.pdf*


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## Fullhousefarm (Aug 31, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Thank you for your post! I'm so sorry about your does.
> 
> Did you know you can use Safeguard instead of Valbazen and it is safe for pregnant does?
> 
> And you say pour on blue ivermectin- do you mean Cydectin? Ivermectin is clear. Do you give it orally?



Valbazen in NOT safe for pregnant goats in the first two trimesters. Most people I know don't give it at all during pregnancy because there are other options. I gave it once during pregnancy, but I knew for sure (pregnancy test and a one time exposure to buck) she was due in less than a week and she was very anemic and at that time my herd was responding well to Valbazen. Her doeling is now my healthiest 2 year old!

Safeguard/Panacur and Ivermectin are labeled for goats and safe during pregnancy, and my vet has also had me give Cydectin (sheep drench or horse paste NOT pour on) and praziquantel (for tapes) in pregnancy.

Also, kids are not born with parasites. They acquire them once born and it becomes a problem if they multiply too rapidly. This usually happens around weaning (assuming 8-10 weeks) or later, but at least a few weeks after they start eating grass. So, deworming "babies" shouldn't be done unless you have a fecal showing a problem. Coccidia or a bacterial issue would be more of a problem in the young stock.

As for your original question... I have not had a case of pregnancy toxemia or hypocalcemia. We've had two sets of triplets (sort of expected based on does' size) and a set of quads (not at all expected!). I do watch does- especially the largest ones- very closely their last 4-6 weeks and increase their access to good hay and add alfalfa pellets to their normal ration. We generally use peanut hay (southern thing... not really available outside of FL, GA, AL) instead of alfalfa. If a does starts eating less I add "lunch" so she isn't decreasing her intake just because she's so full of kids she can't eat as much as before. I do keep a Cal/mag supplement in the kidding kid for an emergency.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 31, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> _*"Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites."*_
> *
> "NOTE that the cattle pour-on formulation should NOT be administered to goats orally – this is not permissible under extra-label use law."
> 
> http://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_c7a6cc3b624043aeaefe8693f9f13c71.pdf*





Southern by choice said:


> _*"Cattle pour-on dewormers should NEVER be used in goats to treat internal parasites."*_
> *
> "NOTE that the cattle pour-on formulation should NOT be administered to goats orally – this is not permissible under extra-label use law."
> 
> http://media.wix.com/ugd/aded98_c7a6cc3b624043aeaefe8693f9f13c71.pdf*



Thanks for the post! I knew Cydectin should NEVER EVER NEVER be given as a pour on, but I didn't realize the pour on couldn't be given orally (I have the horse stuff and have not bought any other kind)

What are your opinions on hypocalcemia?


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 31, 2016)

I do give some alfalfa to the girls before kidding, but I don't really do anything drastic to increase the calcium. The alfalfa is more to keep them happy while they are alone in a stall. Once they kid I do offer TUMS after each milking. I had a doe that I was a little concerned about and she gobbled down a few tums and seemed ok after that. I don't know if it was a fluke thing or is the tums actually did something. 

I do plan on getting a bottle of calcium drench maybe a bottle of calcium gluconate before next kidding season. We may freshen as many as 20 does, and I am a worry wart and always like to be prepared. I can get the drench for ~$10 and the calcium gluconate for $3 (BIG bottle). Well worth it to me in the case of an emergency! 

When you have increasing numbers and years in goats these things become more likely. I am going to continue the way I've been feeding for years but I will be prepared if something goes wrong


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 31, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I do give some alfalfa to the girls before kidding, but I don't really do anything drastic to increase the calcium. The alfalfa is more to keep them happy while they are alone in a stall. Once they kid I do offer TUMS after each milking. I had a doe that I was a little concerned about and she gobbled down a few tums and seemed ok after that. I don't know if it was a fluke thing or is the tums actually did something.
> 
> I do plan on getting a bottle of calcium drench maybe a bottle of calcium gluconate before next kidding season. We may freshen as many as 20 does, and I am a worry wart and always like to be prepared. I can get the drench for ~$10 and the calcium gluconate for $3 (BIG bottle). Well worth it to me in the case of an emergency!
> 
> When you have increasing numbers and years in goats these things become more likely. I am going to continue the way I've been feeding for years but I will be prepared if something goes wrong


I've got the Calcium drench on hand and the calcium gluconate in my Jeffers shopping cart. Don't you hate it when right after you place an order you realize you forgot something!


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## babsbag (Aug 31, 2016)

Just make sure you read up on giving the calcium. The treatment can kill them if it isn't given slow and easy. I really prefer letting a vet do it if I had a choice. The IV was done with a slow drip and heart rate was monitored during.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 31, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Just make sure you read up on giving the calcium. The treatment can kill them if it isn't given slow and easy. I really prefer letting a vet do it if I had a choice. The IV was done with a slow drip and heart rate was monitored during.


YES! I would rather have a vet here with me, it is very dangerous!


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 31, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Just make sure you read up on giving the calcium. The treatment can kill them if it isn't given slow and easy. I really prefer letting a vet do it if I had a choice. The IV was done with a slow drip and heart rate was monitored during.


I was not planning on doing it myself. Anyone use MFO solution?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Just make sure you read up on giving the calcium. The treatment can kill them if it isn't given slow and easy. I really prefer letting a vet do it if I had a choice. The IV was done with a slow drip and heart rate was monitored during.



Absolutely agree! It can be dangerous. We want it on hand but will call the vet in at the slightest hint of a problem. Not all our vets have everything on hand so better for us to make sure it is here.

Great point @babsbag


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## babsbag (Aug 31, 2016)

I have a bottle of MFO but never used it.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 1, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I have a bottle of MFO but never used it.


Do you know if that can be used in place of calcium gluconate?


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## babsbag (Sep 1, 2016)

The calcium gluconate will be given IV or injected. The MFO is an oral drench. While the MFO will help a goat that just needs that extra boost it will not help in a crisis when the goat is down.


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## CJ. (Sep 1, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Thank you for your post! I'm so sorry about your does.
> 
> Did you know you can use Safeguard instead of Valbazen and it is safe for pregnant does?
> 
> And you say pour on blue ivermectin- do you mean Cydectin? Ivermectin is clear. Do you give it orally?


Thank you. I use only Valbazen as never had a problem with over the 14 years I've tended goats of mine and 3 other ranches/farms. When first starting out-I learned quite a bit by the seat of my breeches. Not being a computer person, (then nor now), I made a lot of calls, wrote a lot of letters, spoke with a variety of many. Valbazen came recommended as the #1 white wormer, most effective tape wormer on the market. This from research and vet universities as two examples, as well as my personal experience. But one needs to know how to use correctly not only for infestation, but preventative too, to be effective. The only wormy goats I experience is others. I use safely for my goats, calves, dogs and cats. Horses got their own. I give 1 dose in March and in April as preventative treatment, rarely give a fall dose unless have adopted or taken in a rescue goat, dog, cat. In severely infested goats, it is not the wormer per se that will kill the goat, it is the elimination of worms. Full of active worms the goat feels full and eats, drinks less while the worms get all the nutritional benefits. Once the worms begin to eliminate the goat's body realizes it is severely emaciated/starved and dehydrated and she more than likely will die; several I have seen within 4 hours of worming with recommended normal dose.
I use the Ivermectin Blue Pour-On, (which was originally manufactured for dogs and is primary ingredient in heartworm meds). Caution with this as since it is absorbed into body-too much/too often will burn the animal's insides. I use on my aforementioned,except cats, twice a year (early spring, fall) as a preventative treatment.
I began use of Cydectin (moxidectin) Oral Drench for Sheep when I adopted a couple of goats and took in some orphans that were losing patches of hair (that I learned was) caused by Barber Pole worms, highly contagious, eating a goat alive from the inside out. This recommended as the most effective-fast acting treatment for this worm; used once a year in the spring if overly rainy and goats were exposed to. Again, extreme caution when using as too much will kill the goat also. You must know goat's weight to administer proper dose.
I try to convey only that which I have personally experienced, done and used successfully and why. I do not intend to come off as a 'know it all' nor tell anyone what they should do or use. What goats here in SE. Okla. near Ark. line are subject to, (including some people), will be different elsewhere. I go to/assess goats, environmental and seasonal conditions first before meds, antibiotics. For example, here we have Selenium poor soil which adversely affects grazing nutrition-health-for both cattle and goats and the survival rate of pre-post born and young. One lesson goats taught me early on is just because the tail is up today does not always indicate your goat is healthy, well and happy because tomorrow it maybe down and your goat too. Also, that a goat needs a hug too; mine demand it.


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## CJ. (Sep 1, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Thank you for your post! I'm so sorry about your does.
> 
> Did you know you can use Safeguard instead of Valbazen and it is safe for pregnant does?
> 
> And you say pour on blue ivermectin- do you mean Cydectin? Ivermectin is clear. Do you give it orally?


Thank you. I use only Valbazen as never had a problem with over the 14 years I've tended goats of mine and 3 other ranches/farms. When first starting out-I learned quite a bit by the seat of my breeches. Not being a computer person, (then nor now), I made a lot of calls, wrote a lot of letters, spoke with a variety of many. Valbazen came recommended as the #1 white wormer, most effective tape wormer on the market. This from research and vet universities as two examples, as well as my personal experience. But one needs to know how to use correctly not only for infestation, but preventative too, to be effective. The only wormy goats I experience is others. I use safely for my goats, calves, dogs and cats. Horses got their own. I give 1 dose in March and in April as preventative treatment, rarely give a fall dose unless have adopted or taken in a rescue goat, dog, cat. In severely infested goats, it is not the wormer per se that will kill the goat, it is the elimination of worms. Full of active worms the goat feels full and eats, drinks less while the worms get all the nutritional benefits. Once the worms begin to eliminate the goat's body realizes it is severely emaciated/starved and dehydrated and she more than likely will die; several I have seen within 4 hours of worming with recommended normal dose.
I use the Ivermectin Blue Pour-On, (which was originally manufactured for dogs and is primary ingredient in heartworm meds). Caution with this as since it is absorbed into body-too much/too often will burn the animal's insides. I use on my aforementioned,except cats, twice a year (early spring, fall) as a preventative treatment.
I began use of Cydectin (moxidectin) Oral Drench for Sheep when I adopted a couple of goats and took in some orphans that were losing patches of hair (that I learned was) caused by Barber Pole worms, highly contagious, eating a goat alive from the inside out. This recommended as the most effective-fast acting treatment for this worm; used once a year in the spring if overly rainy and goats were exposed to. Again, extreme caution when using as too much will kill the goat also. You must know goat's weight to administer proper dose.
I try to convey only that which I have personally experienced, done and used successfully and why. I do not intend to come off as a 'know it all' nor tell anyone what they should do or use. What goats here in SE. Okla. near Ark. line are subject to, (including some people), will be different elsewhere. I go to/assess goats, environmental and seasonal conditions first before meds, antibiotics. For example, here we have Selenium poor soil which adversely affects grazing nutrition-health-for both cattle and goats and the survival rate of pre-post born and young. One lesson goats taught me early on is just because the tail is up today does not always indicate your goat is healthy, well and happy because tomorrow it maybe down and your goat too. Also, that a goat needs a hug too; mine demand it.


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## babsbag (Sep 1, 2016)

http://kinne.net/hypocal2.htm

Good reading


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 1, 2016)

babsbag said:


> http://kinne.net/hypocal2.htm
> 
> Good reading


Read through it last night. Was going to posted it here, too.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 1, 2016)

CJ. said:


> Thank you. I use only Valbazen as never had a problem with over the 14 years I've tended goats of mine and 3 other ranches/farms. When first starting out-I learned quite a bit by the seat of my breeches. Not being a computer person, (then nor now), I made a lot of calls, wrote a lot of letters, spoke with a variety of many. Valbazen came recommended as the #1 white wormer, most effective tape wormer on the market. This from research and vet universities as two examples, as well as my personal experience. But one needs to know how to use correctly not only for infestation, but preventative too, to be effective. The only wormy goats I experience is others. I use safely for my goats, calves, dogs and cats. Horses got their own. I give 1 dose in March and in April as preventative treatment, rarely give a fall dose unless have adopted or taken in a rescue goat, dog, cat. In severely infested goats, it is not the wormer per se that will kill the goat, it is the elimination of worms. Full of active worms the goat feels full and eats, drinks less while the worms get all the nutritional benefits. Once the worms begin to eliminate the goat's body realizes it is severely emaciated/starved and dehydrated and she more than likely will die; several I have seen within 4 hours of worming with recommended normal dose.
> I use the Ivermectin Blue Pour-On, (which was originally manufactured for dogs and is primary ingredient in heartworm meds). Caution with this as since it is absorbed into body-too much/too often will burn the animal's insides. I use on my aforementioned,except cats, twice a year (early spring, fall) as a preventative treatment.
> I began use of Cydectin (moxidectin) Oral Drench for Sheep when I adopted a couple of goats and took in some orphans that were losing patches of hair (that I learned was) caused by Barber Pole worms, highly contagious, eating a goat alive from the inside out. This recommended as the most effective-fast acting treatment for this worm; used once a year in the spring if overly rainy and goats were exposed to. Again, extreme caution when using as too much will kill the goat also. You must know goat's weight to administer proper dose.
> I try to convey only that which I have personally experienced, done and used successfully and why. I do not intend to come off as a 'know it all' nor tell anyone what they should do or use. What goats here in SE. Okla. near Ark. line are subject to, (including some people), will be different elsewhere. I go to/assess goats, environmental and seasonal conditions first before meds, antibiotics. For example, here we have Selenium poor soil which adversely affects grazing nutrition-health-for both cattle and goats and the survival rate of pre-post born and young. One lesson goats taught me early on is just because the tail is up today does not always indicate your goat is healthy, well and happy because tomorrow it maybe down and your goat too. Also, that a goat needs a hug too; mine demand it.



Why do you use the pour on as it is dangerous and often ineffective? Seems like that would lead to worm resistance as well... Oral deworming is MUCH more safe and effective as goats have very high metabolisms and the effective amount of dewormer needed does not reach the worm when using pour-ons. A lot of things that work for cattle do NOT work for goats.

Valbazen isn't dangerous because the worms detatch too quickly, if I remember right, as it does not kill blood sucking worms effectively. (I might be wrong) It is dangerous during pregnancy because it can cause abortions in does. Ivermectin/Cydectin kill the blood sucking barberpole, which can cause internal bleeding if treated during a severe infestation. That is why FAMACHA and fecal testing comes in handy, so you don't get to that point.

Actually, just remembered that Valbazen is labeled for liver flukes, so if it works, then that could definitely cause internal bleeding in a severe infestation. Not sure if Valbazen still works for barberpole...

Please correct me if I am wrong about any of this.


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