# Puppies and snakes and coyotes-- Oh, my!



## LMK17 (Aug 16, 2017)

I'm trying to figure out when it's best to start letting our puppies out at night.  They're 5 months old, German Shepherd mixes, about 35-40#.  They're outside farm dogs.  Not LGD but they do serve as a deterrent to some predators.  We have free range chickens, goats, and cattle.

Issue #1 is venomous snakes.  It seems our new place came with a healthy resident population of copperheads.  :/  We've been here just a tad over 1 month.  Within 2 weeks of arriving, one of the pups got bitten by a copperhead not 10' from the front door.  Fortunately, she is recovering uneventfully, but I'm sure that's an experience that none of us wishes to repeat.  I was hoping the snake was a one-off, and since we killed it, I was cautiously optimistic that we wouldn't find any more so close to the house.  Of course, that wasn't meant to be.  We shot a second copperhead a couple weeks later in almost the exact same location as the first.  I also hear that the previous owner found at least one rattlesnake on the property.  And the neighbors alerted us that they recently found a coral snake in the creek along the front property line.  

We're also surrounded by coyotes.  We have good fences-- 8' deer fences with barbed wire top and bottom all along the wooded property next to us-- but I'm not sure it would keep out a truly determined pack of coyotes.  The fences along the road and farm next door are less awesome but still OK.  We have a full perimeter of hot wire.  So far, though, our goats have been safe, so that's good news.

Given their small size and age, I pen up the pups at night.  Actually, I've been penning them at sundown since the snakes start coming out then.  But I have no interest in confining them every night for the rest of their lives.  However, when would you all suggest we start letting them roam at night?  I assume they'll eventually reach a size that the coyotes are less of a concern, but what about the snakes?  Will they eventually learn to leave them alone?  Or do we just need to live with the inevitability that they'll get bitten again-- and hope for the best?  I am considering the rattlesnake vaccine, but the vets I've spoken to have mixed feelings about it.  Kinda frustrating.


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## Latestarter (Aug 16, 2017)

So I'm guessing this all means that you have closed on the place successfully and are living there now... Congratulations! Aside from the snakes and coyotes, I hope it's everything you were hoping it would be. At 5 months old, I'd be thinking it's fine to start letting the dogs be free at night. Of course you'll want to watch them for a week or two to make sure they stay around your place and don't decide to wander off on to other folks' property (and get themselves shot). With luck, the dogs will become snake killers, or alternately will be scared of them and bark at them to let you know there's one about. How'd it eventually work out between them and the older dog(s) that they didn't get along with? As I recall, one of the pups got attacked. Most times, coyotes won't mess with dogs if there's more than one. If they're going to try to take down a dog, it's normally a single dog. And they normally won't attack close to the house, they'll try to lure the dog away and then take it down. I (would not) don't think I'd give my dogs a rattlesnake vaccine... just me.


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## Bruce (Aug 16, 2017)

From the fencing description I don't think there is a concern with the dogs going walkabout. 

The snakes come OUT at night?? I thought being cold blooded they holed up at night and come out during the day. Is there such a thing as snake traps?


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## Baymule (Aug 16, 2017)

Bruce said:


> The snakes come OUT at night?? I thought being cold blooded they holed up at night and come out during the day. Is there such a thing as snake traps?



I am so glad that you joined this forum. You almost always give me a good giggle.  Snakes in Texas are smart enough to NOT come out during the day, their blood would come darn nigh to boiling-probably not what they desire. With daytime temperatures in the high 90's and over 100* it's a sure bet they are holed up until nightfall when it cools off to um......80 degrees?


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## Baymule (Aug 16, 2017)

We have 4 dogs, 2 Great Pyrenees, 1 black Lab/Great Dane and 1 Australian Shepherd. The female GP, Paris, is death on snakes. She's killed 2 copperheads and half dozen rat snakes in the 3 years we've been here. She kills them over and over again, until I find a piece here, a piece there, scattered all around. The male GP, Trip has neither killed a snake or been bitten by one. Both the other 2 have been bitten by copperheads. So I guess we have at least ONE smart dog, 2 dummies and 1 still uncommitted. 

When one of our dogs gets snake bit, I give them benedryl, a baby aspirin and an Arnicare pill for pain. Repeat every 4 hours until the dog is better. It usually takes 2-4 doses for them to recover. Haven't seen any rattlesnakes.

If you do have real good fences, get a couple of pigs. Pen the dogs and goats at night. Open the gates and give the pigs free run of the place and they will eat the snakes. In the morning, pen the pigs back up.


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## Baymule (Aug 16, 2017)

You can also make a snake trap by rolling up chicken wire, semi loosely and laying it where the snakes might travel. Up against a building or chicken coop are good spots. The snake can crawl in, but can't get out. Kill the snake and give to the pigs.

@goatgurl where is that picture of your pig enjoying a snake dinner?


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## goatgurl (Aug 16, 2017)

I have had quite a year for snakes.  both my farm dogs were bitten by a copperhead couple of weeks ago.  emma the 14 year old 15# terrier type girl was pretty sick for a couple of days but JJ the English shepherd was fine by the next morning.  emma was bitten first so i'm pretty sure she got the bigger dose of venom.   both are back to their old selves now, thank Heaven. that copperhead was right at the bottom of my back steps and I would have stepped right on it as I was coming out the door if the girls hadn't jumped  in front of me.  good girls!!   that is the 4th copperhead I've killed here this summer in my yard.  my barn and hen house has been alive with black snakes, I've lost probably 80-100 baby chicks and ducks to them.  I think that your pups are probably old enough to leave out at night.  I don't think they will be bothered if they can't get out of the fences.  be sure you keep some Benadryl and baby aspirin to give your dogs if they do bet bitten again.  emma has fought snakes for her entire 14 years and this is the first time she has been bitten.  after I lost so many babies to the black snakes I finally resorted to killing a couple which I hated to do sometimes war is war and the snakes started it...  this is the picture baymule was talking about. this snake was in the nest where one of my mama ducks saw sitting on 15 eggs and by the time the snake was done there were 2 left.  it also cleaned out the nest of one of my broodie hens so enough is enough.  I have free range ducks and chickens  and I have actually seen them chase, grab and eat smaller snakes.  and yes the pig enjoyed his snack.  @Bruce, you crack me up.  yes snakes come out at night around here ya wouldn't them to burn their belly would you.  I never go out after dark in the summer without a good flashlight because i'm not wanting to get zapped.   day in the life of....


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## Simpleterrier (Aug 16, 2017)

I would be careful letting two dogs lose at the same time if not fully in closed. Two can get in more trouble then one.


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## Bruce (Aug 16, 2017)

Glad I can bring some levity to your lives girls 

Having removed a total of 7 groundhogs this year, I wouldn't hesitate to take out those black snakes. Not that I enjoy doing in the GHs, in fact I feel badly about it. But they are destructive to the barn foundations (such that they are) and run tunnels where people and animals can break through and get hurt. If only they would hang out away from the house, barns and garden!


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## Mike CHS (Aug 16, 2017)

I'm going to have to try that rolled up chicken wire since we have a couple in places that I don't want them.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 16, 2017)

Copperheads are terrible 

I know 3 folks that were bitten, cat was but on 3-4 different occasions, friend's dog was bitten...I'm sure I'm forgetting some but we've killed a LOT. 

I think @babsbag has done snake aversion training with her dogs, might be worth looking into.
This guy was just ended a few days ago. HATE HATE them!


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## babsbag (Aug 17, 2017)

I did rattlesnake aversion training with all of my dogs and have seen proof of it working with two of them. They train them to avert by sound, sight, and smell. They tell me that a dog will not learn to leave them alone as the bite does not hurt at the time of the bite, only later. When my first dog was bitten a few years ago we administered benedryl and went to the vet ASAP. The vet said that the benedryl does no good whatsoever as it is not an allergic response that causes the swelling. But I have read many many things online where people were told to give Benedryl. I figure it can't hurt, and will make them tired which is good. Either way they need a vet for the antibiotics if nothing else as snake bites are very dirty. 

Most rattlesnake venom contain hemotoxic elements which damage tissue and affect the circulatory system by destroying blood cells, skin tissues and causing internal hemorrhaging. Rattlesnake venom can also contains neurotoxic components which immobilize the nervous system, affecting the victim's breathing, sometimes stopping it, but that is usually in baby snakes and the Mojave rattler.

Copperheads are in the same family as a rattler but not as toxic.


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## LMK17 (Aug 17, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> So I'm guessing this all means that you have closed on the place successfully and are living there now... Congratulations! Aside from the snakes and coyotes, I hope it's everything you were hoping it would be...  How'd it eventually work out between them and the older dog(s) that they didn't get along with? As I recall, one of the pups got attacked...



Yes, we closed on the farm the second week in July!  It's been an adventure so far, and we're still working on getting settled, but I love it.  Unfortunately, our 8 year old, who has always been a sensitive kid, has been having a hard time adjusting to the new place/routine.  We're working through that, but it's difficult for him and hard for us to watch.  I think we're making progress, though.  However, our 5 year old LOVES it here, and it's a lot of fun watching her with the animals.  Anyway, I've been meaning to start a journal on here but haven't found the time.  I'll get one up eventually!

Our older house dog, Sam, is as awful as ever.  :/  She can't be around ANY of the other animals without trying to attack them.  As I've already written about here, she has attacked the kids' cats and also the puppies.  Now on the farm, we lost a chicken to her (DS accidentally let her out).  I've also had to chase after her in the pastures as she ran after the goats AND the steers.  I kinda wish one of the cattle would've given her a good kick.    She's either in the house or tied in the front yard (where she barks obsessively at any of the stock she can see). 

I've heard so much about the rattlesnake vaccine from both sides of the fence.  I've asked 3 different vets about it.  First guy says it's cheap insurance and sometimes negates the need for antivenom.  He recommends it.  Second vet says her patients who've had the vaccine still needed treatment but generally had better outcomes than non-vaccinated dogs.  She says it's worth considering.  Third vet says it's a total ripoff and shouldn't be on the market.  



babsbag said:


> I did rattlesnake aversion training with all of my dogs and have seen proof of it working with two of them. They train them to avert by sound, sight, and smell. They tell me that a dog will not learn to leave them alone as the bite does not hurt at the time of the bite, only later. When my first dog was bitten a few years ago we administered benedryl and went to the vet ASAP. The vet said that the benedryl does no good whatsoever as it is not an allergic response that causes the swelling. But I have read many many things online where people were told to give Benedryl. I figure it can't hurt, and will make them tired which is good. Either way they need a vet for the antibiotics if nothing else as snake bites are very dirty.



I have considered the aversion training and might give it a try.  And interesting about your vet's advice regarding Benedryl.  Benedryl is the only standard treatment our vet recommends for copperhead bites.  I took Dot to the vet (not our normal one; an e-vet) after her copperhead bite, and the vet actually said that the antibiotics are unnecessary most of the time.  We declined them. 

So at this point, I'm not so worried about copperhead bites.  BUT we might have rattlesnakes here, too.  Suppose a dog comes running up and has gotten bitten but I didn't see the snake.  Then what?  Do we assume it's a copperhead or take the extra conservative route and assume it's a rattler?  Is there any way to make an educated guess which kind of snake it was based on the dog's symptoms or anything like that?


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## babsbag (Aug 17, 2017)

Since rattlesnakes and copperheads are both pit vipers I don't know how you would know the difference, we only have rattlesnakes to worry about so it is obvious. My vet won't do the vaccine, she says that it has not been tested on dogs and that any testing that was done was only with one specific kind of rattlesnake, and not the kind we have here.  I believe that the Benedryl is more to keep them calm than it is to help with the swelling; it was an emergency clinic that I went to, not my normal vet, otherwise I would ask again as now I am curious. I believe that my vet gives Dexamethasone and antibiotics.  The way the venom works by interfering with circulation is what causes the swelling, at least that is my understanding. But again, Benedryl is harmless so what would it hurt.


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## Bruce (Aug 17, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> I've also had to chase after her in the pastures as she ran after the goats AND the steers.


Sounds like a dog that could benefit from a remote controlled shock collar. Clearly ALL your other animals would benefit. I think they have a warning  setting as well like invisible fence collars. It will take work and time on your part of course.


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## LMK17 (Aug 18, 2017)

Bruce said:


> Sounds like a dog that could benefit from a remote controlled shock collar. Clearly ALL your other animals would benefit. I think they have a warning  setting as well like invisible fence collars. It will take work and time on your part of course.



Oh, it's not that I'm afraid of putting in effort.  Unfortunately, I think Sam's just a lost cause, though.  And apparently I'm not the only one:  Two trainers have refused to work with her, saying they can't reform her.  Long story, but she's a 9 year old chow-chow mix who has had aggression and predation issues since before I got her at age 5 months.  The shelter nearly deemed her un-adoptable.  :/  And the darn thing is so wooly that the hotwire can't zap her, so she runs right through it given the chance to get to the livestock.  Fortunately, the only times she's escaped the house were in the first week or so that we lived here.  I think we figured out a system now to keep her away from the doors.  We've got strategically placed baby gates + she wears a muzzle as an extra safety net.  I hate to do it, but the alternative is to rehome or euthanize her.  

I just keep telling myself that at least she's unlikely to live another 9 years...  That said, she's always been good with the kids and DH and me.  She also barks at snakes and hawks, so she's got that going for her.  LOL


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## Baymule (Aug 18, 2017)

I hope you can keep her from becoming a danger to your other animals. What about a kennel with wire bottom and top so she can at least go outdoors when the weather is nice for her? I know you don't want to give up on her, but it will be hard to keep her away from the other animals. Good luck with her.


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## Bruce (Aug 18, 2017)

Shave her and the hot wire will "talk" to her 

The purpose of the shock collar is so you can zap her every time she looks like she is thinking about doing something seriously against the house rules.


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