# ram question *update*



## marliah (Jun 1, 2011)

*update in the replies*

ok I was just checking some of the posts here and saw the one about the sterile shetland ram. How old would my ram be before he is showing his manhood so to speak. I was told he is almost a year old and I see nothing hanging at all. how would I tell if he is wethered? He is awefully sweet so if he is thats fine by me and I will just keep him as a pet, but I was told he was not banded and was a ram, now I am really wondering.....actually I have been since about a week after I got him. If I took a photo of him would one of you be able to tell me?

thanks!

- Tara


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 1, 2011)

Ram lambs are born with the sac very visible, though the testicles usually drop a few days later.  There's absolutely nothing hanging between your ram's hind legs?  :/  If there's absolutely nothing there, then he was banded and is now a wether.  You can definitely take a picture if you want.


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## marliah (Jun 1, 2011)

there is nothing there, when I did a pretty close inspection after I got him I saw nothing obvious but not knowing much about sheep figured maybe they didn't look like that until they were older. Best estimate I have on his age is 9-10 months. I thought maybe it was something that happened as they matured more. I didn't see any major scarring when I did my inspection a couple weeks back, but I have no idea what I am looking for. How would I tell if he is a wether or just un descended? if he is un descended does that mean he can make a good pet like a wether would? I took some photos but sounds like I don't need to bother uploading them, it should be obvious if he is intact eh? 

- Tara


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## Bossroo (Jun 1, 2011)

At 9-10 months of age, you should have NO daughts that this is indeed a ram. If you baught him as a ram at a ram's price,you have every right to receive a ram... not a weather or a male with undecended testicles making this sheep worthless as a breedering ram,but only as slaughter lamb. You should get your money's worth.  I would take him back and get my money returned ASAP.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 1, 2011)

If he's a cryptorchid you will be able to feel testicles under the skin, but he should still have a scrotum.  If this is the case, he won't make a good pet because the testicles would still be there making testosterone.  He could also possibly breed the ewes still.  If he was banded you'll likely not be able to find a scar.  

Sounds to me like he's a wether.  Sorry.


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## patandchickens (Jun 1, 2011)

Intact male sheep have _very_ large, er, it is very noticeable. To the point where you go "whoa, doesn't it BOTHER them having that huge package swingin' around between their hindlegs?"  Even when they are only like 6 months old. 

If you could see a scrotum but it wasn't full, maybe he'd be a cryptorchid, but if you see nothing at all then he's a wether. 

If you want confirmation, you could post a pic of him from the rear, square-on with his tail not obscuring the region. You are looking in the right place, yes? _Not_ right below the anal region like in a tomcat, but along the underline of the body between the hindlegs like in a horse.

Pat


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## marliah (Jun 1, 2011)

so if he is a cryptorchid would the sack still be noticable? I see nothing. period. so he is probably a wether then :/ I will do a double check this evening when my husband gets home. I have to say I am a bit bummed because I just got a lamb his exact breed (half shetland and half southdown) and was really looking forward to breeding her next year. I am also bummed that not one but 2 people lied about this. The guy who sold (well traded) him to me traded him for 2 of my goats, he was only a boy, maybe 18 or 19 and never kept sheep. He had bought the ram on auction and was told it was an intact ram. So I don't think he intentionally misled me or anything. I specifically asked if he was an intact ram at the time of trade and he assured me he was. I was questioning it shortly after we got him because first off he was super friendly and second off I didn't notice anything there. I don't have much experience with sheep but I did have goats when I was growing up and I thought sheep were similar in that regard. I should have gone with my instincts on that. That stinks! He is a great color, has super fleece and is nice and small, I planned my whole flock around him. 

I don't know what to be about the whole ordeal. I don't necessarily want the goats back, and I rather like the little guy. But now I am left unable to breed my ewes (I have two breeding age ewes in addition to the young one). 

Do people typically offer stud service for sheep? maybe I could find someone this fall to breed them with? or should I buy a ram and let him service the girls then put him in the freezer?

Thanks for the help, I wish I had found this forum sooner 

- Tara


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## carolinagirl (Jun 1, 2011)

That really does suck.  So if you know what goatie boy parts look like, sheep are the same only bigger.  It would be obvious.  If he was cryptorchid there would be an empty sack, but still a sack.  If you like him and want his wool and don't want your goats back, keep him.  But I'd still call the guy and let him know.  You bought a ram and that's what you should have for your part of the trade.


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## marliah (Jun 1, 2011)

ok I just went out to the pen and checked him up close and there is something there, about the size of a plum, but right up next to his body, certianly not the "third leg" I see on most of them. So whats up with that?!? is there a possibility he is a functional ram after all? I felt it and it feels like boy parts, and he tried to jump away from me when I did so. 

He is a small boy so would that be normal for a small sheep? 

Boy do I feel ignorant LOL


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 1, 2011)

If you could take pictures maybe we can help you figure out which he is, a wether or a ram. 

Here's a pic of my Romney ram lambs just after weaning. They were probably 9 weeks old in this pic, and you can see both of their scrotums clearly.  






It's possible someone did a bad job banding him and he's still got at least 1 testicle.


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## marliah (Jun 1, 2011)

heres my guy, the best shots I could get from outside the pen. I think at best maybe he had a botched wethering done?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15298794@N04/5787447195/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15298794@N04/5787444129/in/photostream


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 1, 2011)

Looks to me like he's a Scottish Blackface wether (or at best a Scottish Blackface cross)!  He doesn't look like a Southdown OR a Shetland to me!


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## marliah (Jun 1, 2011)

well I think you may be right! he looks alot more like that than any shetland (and certainly any southdown) I have ever seen. 

I'm starting to think auctions aren't a good place to get sheep.

any ideas on this little miss? also told she is a shetland/southdown:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/15298794@N04/5787441043/in/photostream

thanks so much for all your help!


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## patandchickens (Jun 1, 2011)

Yah, he sure does not look at all like a functioning male. Have you tried catching him and tipping him to inspect up close? You need to be careful of the horns but OTOH they give you something to hold onto if need be (at the very base, not further out, and tactfully because they *are* breakable).

I don't really know from breeds, but I can sure see what Katie is saying about Scottish Blackface and those black-dotted legs are *not* as far as I know at all common in shetlands or southdowns. 

If he were the functioning ram you wanted I'd say "does it really matter as long as he has the traits you want".... under the circumstances, I think I'd have to say instead "well, now you have a wether with nice fiber-producing characteristics to keep a yet-to-be-acquired ram company in the off season" 

Good luck, have fun, sorry it's getting complicated for you,

Pat


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 2, 2011)

marliah said:
			
		

> well I think you may be right! he looks alot more like that than any shetland (and certainly any southdown) I have ever seen.
> 
> I'm starting to think auctions aren't a good place to get sheep.
> 
> ...


Well it's sort of hard to tell because she's so far back and it's hard to see her.  I'd say the other ewe looks like a Shetland to me though.  

Pat's right, now you've got a nice wether as a companion for your future ram!  

And yes, unless you know your stuff auctions are definitely not a good place to get breeding stock, and even when you do know your stuff they're a gamble!


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## patandchickens (Jun 2, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> And yes, unless you know your stuff auctions are definitely not a good place to get breeding stock, and even when you do know you're stuff they're a gamble!


For one thing you have no recourse if there are fertility problems -- and many people with poorly-fertile rams WOULD send them to an auction...

Also buying at auction makes it harder to, um, control your learning curve about exciting sheep diseases, even when they are not *apparent* in the animal at time of purchase.

I could totally see buying feeder lambs at an auction, but it does not strike me as a good plan for "keepers".

Pat


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## carolinagirl (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree....livestock auctions can be a very bad place to purchase livestock unless you are REALLY experienced and have a place to quarantine new stock for at least a month.  People who have animals they need to cull (for health, birthing, behavior, etc) take them to auctions because they don't want to sell them at their farms, in fear of damaging their reputation.  I would MUCH rather pay more and purchase at the farm.  

Years ago when we were building a herd of goats and knew very little, we bought a few more goats to add to our large herd at the auction.  Little did we know the new ones had pink eye.  Soon our entire flock of over 100 goats had pink eye.  Ever try to put drops in a goats eye?  Multiply that times 100 and do it every day for a week.  I was ready to shoot them all before we were done with that.


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## Bossroo (Jun 2, 2011)

Seeing the photo of this "ram" ... he is not.  If cryptorchid and breeds the ewes, that characteristic is inherited to any male offspring. If he produces a ewe lamb, she will pass the gene on to her male offspring.  His wool characteristics are poor at best. Not a good way to start a sheep venture.   I would get my trade goats back, or make this one into lamb chops to get the most bang for your buck and write it off to experience.


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