# respecting the horns



## peachick (Mar 27, 2011)

I have a new respect for Buckleys horns.  I knew all along that they could hurt,  but  I never knew how much until yesterday.  It is not his fault.  I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.  

It was a lovely afternoon.  I grabbed a few ears of corn and sat on the ground to feed the goats.  Normally sitting on the ground is safe....  but passing out food from down there  was my mistake.  Buckley is a very easy going buck  until there is food around.  He went to push the other goats away from the corn and he hit my ankle with his horn as he did it,  right on my ankle bone.  OMG  it was as if someone hit me with a hammer!  It hurt so bad, and for so long...  it just wouldn't stop!.  I literally crawled out of the goat pen...  moaning the entire way.   I am sure noting is broken,  but  it hurt like nothing else.

Anyway,  today my ankle is all kinds of pretty shades of purple.  Its not too swolen,  I can walk on it fine, but it is quite achy still.  Fortunately I had some left over pain meds from last years surgery.  I spent all afternoon on the sofa looks  like  I will be there today too.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 27, 2011)

OUCH!!!  Im sorry!!! 

I had gone in with snacks once.  I put the snacks in the air till I got situated and my buck jumped in the air after it and got me right in the face.  Broke my glasses and gave me a nice black eye.  My husband says as Im walking out with my empty bucket and broken glasses "All fun and games till someone loses an eye!"   

I know how you feel...had a few injuries myself!! And they were my fault too!!!  Hope you heal fast!! Get well soon!!  A day in the life of goat owners!!!


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## stano40 (Mar 27, 2011)

yeah my DH found out the hard way when he went to pet 1 of the does while eating and she swung her head and hit him in the mouth with her horn. he hollered to me and her was sitting with blood running down his face. got to love those goats.


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## elevan (Mar 27, 2011)

Unfortunately those "accidents" always seem to be our fault    at least we learn from them.  My DH is usually the one with the owies since he's a such a city boy and doesn't always pay attention  

If I were you I would probably treat the injury like you would a sprain (RICE)

Rest
Ice
Compression
Elevate

My DH suffered a sprain from a horse stepping onto his foot.  I always thought a sprain resulted from a twist until that.

Hope you feel better soon!


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## peachick (Mar 27, 2011)

thanks guys.  Im fine  (just not real smart)  
the pain meds are working well.  I ran some errands today.
but  its time to get off my feet and elevate my ankle like eleven suggested 

I figured you all would have some stories to share.  Thanks


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Mar 27, 2011)

My buck (in my avatar) caught my necklace on his horn as I bent over him to get his food bowl off the floor and he ended up stabbing me in the throat pretty good once. For some reason the chain on my necklace stretched out but didn't break... I was fine, but man - you want to be aware of what you're doing for sure!


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## jhm47 (Mar 28, 2011)

Several of the commenters here admitted that their accidents were "their fault", and they are correct.  However, their biggest mistake was in not dehorning their animals when they were young.  Goats, and especially cattle are 10X more dangerous with horns, and I'd hate to see any of you seriously injured because you neglected to dehorn.  Believe me, I've seen first hand what a horned bull can do, and it's not pretty.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Several of the commenters here admitted that their accidents were "their fault", and they are correct.  However, their biggest mistake was in not dehorning their animals when they were young.  Goats, and especially cattle are 10X more dangerous with horns, and I'd hate to see any of you seriously injured because you neglected to dehorn.  Believe me, I've seen first hand what a horned bull can do, and it's not pretty.


Yeah, no horned animals allowed here.


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## peachick (Mar 28, 2011)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Several of the commenters here admitted that their accidents were "their fault", and they are correct.  However, their biggest mistake was in not dehorning their animals when they were young.  Goats, and especially cattle are 10X more dangerous with horns, and I'd hate to see any of you seriously injured because you neglected to dehorn.  Believe me, I've seen first hand what a horned bull can do, and it's not pretty.


hi jhm47.  I understand your comment,  but for me, haveing goats with horns is a preference, not a mistake.  I have a problem with dehorning.  I also have a problem with cropping dogs ears, and cutting off their tails..... 
of course a tail wont gord you like a goat horn will,  but god gave them those body parts.     I just have to be more careful....  and respect the horns


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

I agree Peachick...its a personal choice if you want horned animals or not.  And my black eye and broken glasses came from the bucks head who is hornless.  We choose to dehorn.  So not all injuries from goats happen from horns.  They happen cuz we make mistakes sometimes! And with any animal care...they have there risks.  Dogs bite..cats scratch..horses throw..goats butt...etc..etc..etc.  

Being mindful helps alot!!


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## Goatherd (Mar 28, 2011)

> I understand your comment,  but for me, haveing goats with horns is a preference, not a mistake.  I have a problem with dehorning.  I also have a problem with cropping dogs ears, and cutting off their tails.....
> of course a tail wont gord you like a goat horn will,  but god gave them those body parts.     I just have to be more careful....  and respect the horns


My sentiment, exactly.   Thank you.


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## patandchickens (Mar 28, 2011)

I do not mean to be critical, I am trying to help keep people safe here, but may I just say that it sounds to me like the issue is not so much needing to respect the horns as needing to remember to respect the ANIMALS?

Quite frankly when you said you went out and sat down on the ground with food among the goats, I thought Oh, Lordy, she got conked in the head or trampled. You got really *lucky*; and *horns or no horns* it is truly not a good idea to get butted hard in the head or chest, or run over by a full sized goat (even a miniature one won't do you a lot of good). All it takes is a moment of impatience, or one goat getting irked at another.

Please folks, realize that sitting on the ground among animals is risky, and for heaven's sake DON'T do it when you have FOOD there with you. It is the great big kick-me sign for a crippling injury.

Just cuz they're cute pets and know their names and do not mean you harm, does not mean they are harmless.

Pat


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## jhm47 (Mar 28, 2011)

As many of you probably can tell, I've been an EMT for 23 years now.  I've seen literally hundreds of accidents involving "farm" stuff, and have developed some ideas on how to prevent problems.  In my opinion, a horned cow, goat or sheep is just as dangerous as driving without a seatbelt, smoking, or teasing pitbulls.  I have been adamant about warning people about doing the responsible thing, and dehorning their animals.  Some of you disagree for whatever reason, and I respect your opinion.  However, if you had seen what I saw several years ago, you would definitely change your minds.  A bull and one of our neighbors were involved.  This bull was supposed to be very gentle, but on this particular day, he was not.  My neighbor nearly paid with his life for his cavalier attitude about dehorning and he still is undergoing surgery to correct the damage.  This has cost him hundreds of thousands of $.  I was not actually on call that day, but I was called in to assist the EMT's who were.  We had to shoot the bull in order to get access to my fallen neighbor.  My neighbor had his abdomen ripped open.  His intestines and other organs were exposed and they were contaminated with mud, fecal matter, and whatever else the bull had been goring his horns in.  The infection that this man endured and luckily survived was enormous.  Ever since this, I have been outspoken about dehorning.  I feel that it is especially important for people who are not particularly experienced with livestock.  JMHO


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## peachick (Mar 28, 2011)

thank you jhm47  
we certainly understand your position.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

That definately explains your position.  I understand now because of your expiriences as an EMT.  

But with most things in life...there is risk..and if one dos'nt take some risks...your not really living are you??  

I appreciate what you do for a job...and thank you..I commend you. Its tough and Im sure very shocking at tmes.  

Most people who own livestock understand the risk they are taking on. I say most. And accidents happen and we make mistakes as the animals at times make mistakes too. 

But if I did'nt breed my does because of fear of fetal death or some other tragedy that I was trying to prevent...I would never be a dairy farmer.  I feel you gotta take the good with the bad and learning sometimes comes the hard way. 

Im sorry dont mean to offend.  But to me..life and risks is not that black and white.  Living life is a risk everyday.  If I stopped doing stuff because it was dangerous...my life would be boring and miserable.

I do understand and respect your opinion as well...you pick up the pieces.  So you will have a differant prospective on it at times.

FYI I do dehorn my animals.  Moreover for the safety of the herd.  They can do alot of damage to themselves as well as humans.  But I do understand people who want to keep the animal in the natural state its their right and choice.  And as peachick said...respect the horn.  She had her lesson that day...and thankfully not as bad as being disemboweled.

Please dont take offense...I am just stating an opinion!!  

One risk I am definately willing to take is risking salmonella to eat raw chocolate chip cookie dough!!!   

Be well!!


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## Okie Amazon (Mar 28, 2011)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> In my opinion, a horned cow, goat or sheep is just as dangerous as driving without a seatbelt, smoking, or teasing pitbulls.


Hmmm... well, two out of three I regularly indulge in. I tease German Shepherds on a regular basis as well, though they know it's all in fun. Thought I'd quit living so dangerously.

Both of our girls are horned; not really a preference, that's just the way they were when we got them and we'll take precautions and live with that. We have and do plan on dis-budding any kids we raise. (though we will buy the equipment and do it ourselves in the future, after losing a baby to de-horning aftermath; whether tetanus or over-heated brain). If we had children, I probably would NOT have purchased goats with horns, since children tend to be far less safety concious.


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## carolinagirl (Mar 28, 2011)

I tease my pit bull on a regular basis.  she is a big marshmellow and loves to play.  

OK...regarding horns.  I don't like them, but I won't dehorn either.  The thought of nearly frying a baby goat's brains just because I don't want horns is appauling to me and I refuse to do it or allow it to be done on my animals.  I saw it done once and I couldn't believe how the poor goat screamed.  No thanks!!  At one time I wanted to raise nigerian goats but since they are supposed to be sold dehorned, I decided against them.   I am getting into sheep now and chose a breed that is naturally polled so I would not have to deal with horns or dehorning.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 28, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> OK...regarding horns.  I don't like them, but I won't dehorn either.  The thought of nearly frying a baby goat's brains just because I don't want horns is appauling to me and I refuse to do it or allow it to be done on my animals.  I saw it done once and I couldn't believe how the poor goat screamed.


:/

Yes, if disbudding is done *improperly* you could nearly fry its brain.


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Mar 28, 2011)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Several of the commenters here admitted that their accidents were "their fault", and they are correct.  However, their biggest mistake was in not dehorning their animals when they were young.  Goats, and especially cattle are 10X more dangerous with horns, and I'd hate to see any of you seriously injured because you neglected to dehorn.  Believe me, I've seen first hand what a horned bull can do, and it's not pretty.


If I had gotten my goats from someone that didn't breed them solely for meat they probably would have been a lot more tame too. There are just some things that are out if your control sometimes and you have to deal with them. I may disbud in the future, I may not. It just depends. I fully understand the risk involved by having horned animals, but you take your life in your hands when you drive your car too. 

Edit: Heck, even my "disbudded" doe has scur horns! The people I got her from obviously don't know what they're doing, since many of their new goats continue to show scurs when it's apparent that their older ones do too. You'd think they would learn... :/


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## jhm47 (Mar 29, 2011)

Quote:  "I saw it done once and I couldn't believe how the goat screamed.  No thanks."  

I hope you or one of your children, your spouse, or another innocent person never has to scream in pain because you didn't dehorn your animals.  Hearing a human scream in pain is far worse than hearing a goat or calf.  I've been there far too many times (not just due to animals).


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## carolinagirl (Mar 29, 2011)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Quote:  "I saw it done once and I couldn't believe how the goat screamed.  No thanks."
> 
> I hope you or one of your children, your spouse, or another innocent person never has to scream in pain because you didn't dehorn your animals.  Hearing a human scream in pain is far worse than hearing a goat or calf.  I've been there far too many times (not just due to animals).


What's next?  Pulling the teeth of our dogs so they don't hurt us? Declawing the cat (Oh wait...people do that too).  Sorry....I just don't see it.  Any farm animal can hurt us.  Horses can kick us.  What can we do to prevent that kind of injury?  Use care around the back end of a horse.  I had boar goats for years and they all had massive horns.  No one ever got hurt because we were all careful.  I even milked some of them.  I kind of liked the horns...I had built-in handles!  This time around I wanted a polled animal because I am getting a LGD to work around them and I don't want my dog injured.  I know enough to respect the horns, but a young dog doesn't.  Why can't someone develop abreed of milk goats that are naturally polled, as has been done with sheep breeds?


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## Roll farms (Mar 29, 2011)

There are naturally polled dairy goats.  A lot of people specifically breed for that....they're just not real common.  Google "polled Nubians".

To me, disbudding is no more cruel than leaving horns on and finding a horned animal hung in the fence, dead... or finding a hurt doe down who's been hit w/ horns by another goat.

And yes, even disbudded goats can hurt you.  But I'd rather be hit by one who's not got any horns to add insult to the injury.

It is a matter of preference, but please don't imply that dehorning in and of itself is cruel.  If done properly, the kids are FINE 30 seconds after you're done.  They scream as much from the confinement as they do the actual procedure.

The last 2 of my horned boers are leaving this coming weekend.  They are not worth the hassle (even though they make BEAUTIFUL babies).  
I cannot leave my dehorned does in with them (they beat them up) and they destroyed a brand new barn wall by just banging it repeatedly b/c they are bored.  

I lost a gorgeous doe last year b/c a horned buck hit her in the neck, sideways and did irrepairable damage.

And...think about it...Would you guys like being grabbed by your ears every time someone needed to medicate you...?
Imagine what being jerked around by an appendage on your head feels like....  
I never touch their horns if I can help it....I imagine that causes one heck of a stiff neck when it's all said and done.  Handles indeed...


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 29, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> Why can't someone develop abreed of milk goats that are naturally polled, as has been done with sheep breeds?


There ARE polled goats, but the polled gene is linked to the intersex gene.  You can't breed polled to polled, so you're always going to get a percentage of polled/horned.  That means if you want registered, sellable dairy goats you're stuck with disbudding, regardless of your personal thoughts on it.

The slippery slope argument is totally and completely unfair to folks who treat their animals with respect and still choose to disbud, whether it's for safety reasons or because it's required to work within the system.  You're of course entitled to your opinion but this is an "agree to disagree" sort of subject and implying that those of us who disbud are inhumane probably isn't the way to go about it.

Edited to add: what Roll said... we posted at the same time.


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## carolinagirl (Mar 29, 2011)

We would never subject a puppy to ear cropping without the benefits of anesthesia (I don't agree with ear cropping either).  No animal should be subjected to painful procedures without the benefit of anesthesia. I know anesthesia is probably impractical for little goats and maybe it's not even possible.  It would certainly be expensive.  I understand the argument, but still feel like it is an imhumane procedure.  We will have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 29, 2011)

Yes, it's impractical because the risk of death is high.


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## elevan (Mar 29, 2011)

RESPECT THE ANIMAL (HORNS OR NOT) ...that is really what this post really intended (I believe) and not to become a debate about the horned status of goats.

I completely understand the call for both sides.  BUT it is a personal choice.  Those who choose to leave the horns need to be aware of the added risk and take precautions.  Those who disbud should also be aware of the risks to their goats when it comes to the procedure itself.  As long as you understand the risks, then no one should have a problem with your taking them.

Some people think I'm harsh with my boys (human) because I constantly limit their "exposure" to certain situations with the animals and if they take a risk I'll pull them out of the situation and "yell" at them including giving them the reasons for the danger.  I'm teaching my kids to be careful and not put themselves in danger...to respect the animal...but to love the animal.  The 2 biggest dangers on my farm are the mini horse and 1 hornless goat.

As long as we respect the animal we are doing are part to be safe.  Things happen sometimes, that's why they are called accidents.  I would NEVER enter a field with a horned bull, but that's my choice...I will however enter a field with my horned bucks, being aware of them at all times and taking necessary precautions.

Freedom of choice...thank God that I live in American where I get to make the many choices that I do for myself, my family and my herd.


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## Cara Peachick (Apr 6, 2011)

This has been an interesting discussion for me as I am getting disbudded LaMancha does at the end of this month, and (if all goes well) I'll have babies within a few months thereafter, so I'll need to decide whether to disbud or not.

I am leaning toward leaving them in their natural state.  (I am also in the don't clip ears or tails of dogs camp.)  Also, I understand that horns may play a role in cooling animals?  However, I have young children, a livestock guardian dog, and (of course) fences they could get stuck in, etc.  I also have those original 2 does, who have no horns and would likely move down the pecking order as a result.  It's a tough one for me.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.


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## peachick (Apr 6, 2011)

My toughest doe is one that is naturally polled.
and my little black doe with horns never uses them....  but she has gottern her head stuck in the fence.


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## elevan (Apr 6, 2011)

My herd queen is disbudded (prior to my getting her).  And she is one tough goat!  She puts everyone in their place horns or not!


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## RioLindoAz (Apr 7, 2011)

The things people say in this discussion!
Who else finds this hilarious? Or am I just having one of my "days"?


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## laughingdog (Apr 10, 2011)

so a newbie like me is to expect alot of gorings from my fairly still new nigerian dwarf billy goat (what everyone who has seen, or hears me describe it as, says it seems to be), if i dont, or even if i do, wither him?


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## laughingdog (Apr 10, 2011)

P.S. hilarious to a newbie to goats like me.


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Apr 13, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> I tease my pit bull on a regular basis.  she is a big marshmellow and loves to play.
> 
> OK...regarding horns.  I don't like them, but I won't dehorn either.  The thought of nearly frying a baby goat's brains just because I don't want horns is appauling to me and I refuse to do it or allow it to be done on my animals.  I saw it done once and I couldn't believe how the poor goat screamed.  No thanks!!  At one time I wanted to raise nigerian goats but since they are supposed to be sold dehorned, I decided against them.   I am getting into sheep now and chose a breed that is naturally polled so I would not have to deal with horns or dehorning.


I brought my little buckling to be disbudded a few days ago (which never happened because the iron was busted beyond repair) and just being set in the box with the lid closed over his neck set off a screaming fit.
He was yelling before the cold iron was even mock pressed over his buds.

I realize that it hurts, but like some have said, it's just better to have it done when they're little than to have to worry over horns the rest of their lives. Getting caught in fences and accidentally goring a herd mate open aren't the type of things I really want to deal with.

I love horns, I think they're beautiful. I have a goat with horns, a goat with scurs, and another goat with horns on layaway (because I put a deposit on him too late for him to be disbudded). I'm more worried about long-term effects of having sharp protrusions on animals that like to butt each other and use their heads in defense and dominance displays on a regular basis.

At any rate, it really should be up to the goat raiser to make their own decisions. All we can do is try to help each other understand why we choose to do what *we* choose to do, and hope they accept that.


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Apr 13, 2011)

laughingdog said:
			
		

> so a newbie like me is to expect alot of gorings from my fairly still new nigerian dwarf billy goat (what everyone who has seen, or hears me describe it as, says it seems to be), if i dont, or even if i do, wither him?


Whether you wether or not won't determine how aggressive he may or may not become, it's up to him and how he was treated, the experiences in his life. Basically it could go either way. He could decide to use his horns on you if he was fixed or not. (Personally if he isn't a good enough quality to improve the kids out of him and my does then I would wether him.) He might not even realize he has horns, but that doesn't mean there won't be accidents involving them at some point. Just turning his head around he could at the very least whack it into your leg (which does hurt, but it happens. Maybe you'll be bruised, maybe not), but if you happened to be bent over him at some point and he lifted his head in alarm you could get a serious hit. THAT would be bad - especially if it was a small child that didn't know any better leaning over the goat to give him a hug.

A wether usually makes a better pet than a buck. A buck is for making babies, not for loving on.
That's not to say I don't love my buck/s, but you have to always be on edge around them and keep alert.


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