# **Well 2 goats with CL, What next?****



## Arabiansnob (Oct 18, 2012)

I just found of my breeding buck for this year and a brood doe has CL disease!   I have never seen any kind of bump on them or abscess I found.  I am worried my other goats may have it.  I had them tested and everyone else was negative.  They have all been with the positive doe since May, so I would think if any of them would have got it it would have shown up when I had them tested in the begining of October?  Would this be correct?   What should I do with the 2 positive goats?!?!?!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 18, 2012)

Do a search on this forum. Rolls has posted plenty about it.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 18, 2012)

This should really help. Read this, this, this, this, and this.


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## Arabiansnob (Oct 18, 2012)

Well I am alittle worried now.......I have never seen them with any abecces but I was reading about it being air born, and that humans can catch it!   also the ositive doe that has it, I picked up her babies after they were born lasy year and they were still wet.....can you catch it from that too?   or cleaning there where they drink from?  I am pretty worried acaully.....!


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## bonbean01 (Oct 18, 2012)

From what I read and if I am understanding this correctly, the most accurate test for CL is from pus from an abcess.  They can have CL and the abscess could be internal, but the blood test for CL is often not accurate...negative positive/positive negative.

I also read that it is rare for humans to contract it from goats and sheep, but it does happen...most commonly from the pus of the abscess entering an open wound/cut of the human.

It is possible that the CL tests are not correct, but I would isolate them from the rest just in case and have them retested.  Many vets won't test for CL with just a blood test because it is not that accurate.  Of course waiting for an abcess to appear is not great either and then infecting the whole herd.

Take my post with a grain of salt because I've never had it here...just have been really worried that one day it might happen.  Many people on here have true experience.

Point is...before you get too upset, read up on it more and the test result accuracy from a blood test vs testing the pus from an abcess.  So sorry you're having to go through this


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## Renegade (Oct 18, 2012)

Is it possible that either of these goats may have been vaccinated for CL? If so they will test positive.

Donna


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 18, 2012)

Arabiansnob said:
			
		

> Well I am alittle worried now.......I have never seen them with any abecces but I was reading about it being air born, and that humans can catch it!   also the ositive doe that has it, I picked up her babies after they were born lasy year and they were still wet.....can you catch it from that too?   or cleaning there where they drink from?  I am pretty worried acaully.....!


Calm down. CL is not that big a deal. First, there can be false positives so I would test again to be sure. Also it is not air born. Where di you read that? That's simply not true. The only way CL is transmitted is thru direct contact with the CL abscess' puss. It is not transmitted thru body fluids and that includes blood and milk. In order for a goat to get CL from an already infected goat is be oral contact or if the puss were to touch an open wound such as a cut or scrape. 

If you have never seen a lump on them then the babies are safe because she have never come in contact with the CL puss. It is not transmitted sexually either. Just by direct contact with the puss either by mouth or entering a cut or any open wound.

Also, some have said that people may be able to get it. I don't take stock in that for a second and it has never been proved, as far as I know. I have never heard anyone give a valid explanation for how it could infect humans too. Besides, many many people have CL+ goats. So don't worry about that.

Like I said, re-test them and see what the results are. If it is still a yes then you make a choice. keep them or not. CL is not a big deal and the only thing is does is cause a lump on a lymph node. It is bacteria that is in the lymph system that builds to a high level and when it does, it forms an abscess that if left alone will open up and it will shed the puss. Nobody knows for sure how often they show up. Some goats may have it once and never again. Some every 5 months. Depends on the goat. We do know that the time in between does decrease as the goat gets older. If you ever have a goat that has multiple CL lumps then cull asap. That could be a sign of it going internal which is a different game. You don't want that and it is pretty bad. But internal CL is very rare in goats. It's a sheep thing. So CL doesn't really do alot of damage and it can be maintained very easily.

In order to maintain CL you must be able to lance and clean the abscess. When the goat gets a lump you must keep and eye on it. When the hair starts to fall off you must bring the goat somewhere where no other animal goes. Be sure to lay a tarp or something else down that you can throw away. Get a razor, iodine, alcohol and some syringes. Put the goat in a stand or find another way to restrain it. Lance in either an X pattern or straight down. Then squeeze ALL the puss into a container to either burn, throw away or sent to a lab. Then rinse with water really good. Then use 20 or so cc's of alcohol  into it. Let that sit 5-10 minutes. After done look in and be sure it's all out. IF not then use your fingers to get it out and spray with water again. When done pour iodine in and around it. Be sure there is no puss on the goat or in it. Then put the goat alone in a dry lot and put iodine on once a day until it is healed, about 7-14 days. The lancing does NOT hurt the goat because the nerves that you would be cutting thru are stretched so the goat doesn't even feel it. 

So it' not very dangerous. All it does is cause a lump and nothing really else. When they do get a lump it is very easy to take care of. Once healed you can put the goat back with the herd. It is not transmitted thru body fluids nor is it sexually transmitted. It can only infect another goat by direct oral contact with the puss or thru a body opening. It can't go to people. It is not airborn.


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## Arabiansnob (Oct 18, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> Arabiansnob said:
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the me



It was on a website that I read........and it made me really worried.  How have you figared out all this knowlege? not to question it, because im thankful you have shared this with me.   Have you had alot of goats with CL?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 18, 2012)

> It was on a website that I read........and it made me really worried.  How have you figared out all this knowlege? not to question it, because im thankful you have shared this with me.   Have you had alot of goats with CL?


I did many, many hours of reading and researching. I had a goat with a lump and thought the world was going to end and that it may be CL. I had always heard that CL was so bad and this and that bla bla bla. Those people don't know what it even is!! People who don't know about CL just think it is some killer disease and it's so bad. Those people don't know anyhting about CL. With some research you can figure out the things I said. While sure it is better to not have it because it is less work and they don't have a disease but I honestly do not belive it is a big deal. I hope you make the decision based on what you feel but imo it's fine. many people have CL+ goats and it's quite alright. 

 I've also talked several people that have had CL in their herds and I have talked to Suzanne Gasparotto of Onion Creek Ranch. She has the most useful and some of the best goat articles and management I've seen. She's been doing goats for over 23 years and has the worlds top Myotonic goats. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/


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## Roll farms (Oct 18, 2012)

So you've never actually dealt w/ CL, then Straw Hat?  Your goat ended up not having it?

After 8 yrs, believe me...if I had it to do over, I would have culled the 3 does who had it in the beginning and started over, rather than still be dealing w/ it 8 yrs later.

Never lost one to it, it hasn't spread like wild fire, and it's not the end of the world some folks make it out to be, no..... but it is a PITA and it's nasty to lance and it's a bother to isolate does w/ open abscesses, etc.  I haven't seen a lump in a year, we may have finally licked it...if not, I assure you, the next lumpy doe will be culled.

I can't think of a nice way to say what I want to about Suzanne G...so I won't...but think long and hard about injecting formulin, a poison, into any animal that may end up in the human food chain.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 18, 2012)

My one doe may have it. She has not been tested for it but everything is consistent with CL so I'm sure she has it. Nobody else has ever had a lump and she has only had one.

Rolls - She has a few pets goats. Shes not a big time breeder like you are. I don't think she sells them in the same way you do. I know she is just starting out and I know when I was just starting out I wasn't looking for anything more than some goats that I can use for milk and to love (Nigerians not Kikos)If you are a breeder and doing things like you are then yeah, it's better to cull. She's in a completely different situation.

I disagree. It doesn't take long and it's not hard to clean it out. You could do it in 15-20 minutes with two people. The separating part can be a pain though. 

And I do agree about that. I would not do that at all. I don't know where the site is but I read something about that. It is very painful and I believe it can cause harm. There are some issues with it. So I wouldn't really do that but the rest is not a big deal esp. for someone who has some pets goats that they love. It not that hard and doesn't take a long time and she said they have never had a lump, they may never get one!!


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 19, 2012)

When it comes to CL, what your purpose is for the goats should be considered.  If they are pets only, I can see keeping them and taking care of them as you would any pet.  If they are going to be used for show or breeding/selling, then keeping a postive animal does run the risk of spreading CL to other people's goats whom they love, have spent time and money on, and probably would rather that their animals not have this disease.


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## chubbydog811 (Oct 19, 2012)

I've only dealt with CAE, not CL, but I will be completely honest in telling you I culled every single animal that was positive. 3 got sold as pet only does to a friend, and 2 went to my freezer. If it were CL, every single one would have gone in the ground.

Yes, it does depend on what you plan on doing with them. If they are just pets, and you aren't planning on selling them/their offspring, go ahead and keep them. If you are looking at selling to other people, I would cull (or be kind enough to raise/test the kids to ensure they are clean when they get sold).

It isn't the end of the world, but really, these issues could be demolished if people stopped feeling bad and culled when these things popped up (applying to the ones who sell infected animals). 
I run a small dairy, and a clean herd is on top of my list of important things. I was EXTREMELY irate when I found out someone had sold me a CAE infected milking doe. She infected 2 other does and many bottle kids. I lost a lot of kids because of CAE. Not culled, but because of issues that came with the CAE. 

Anyway, agreeing with those who said it - it really completely depends on what you want to do with them, and how motivated you are to care for them if/when an abscess pops up.


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## jodief100 (Oct 19, 2012)

CL can spread to humnas but does not present in the same way it does in animals.  It will give a person a skin rash.  So do be careful.  We have dealt with it over the years and we handle it by vaccinating, seperating and isolating.  We do not lance the abcesses, our goats are too wild.  I haven't seen one in over a year so I too, hope we have eliminated it.  

Whatever you decide to do, it is a very personal thing.  While I disagee with culling an animal for it, I know others will think you foolish not to.  

We have used Case-Bac off label to vaccinate but there is a ogoat approved vaccine on the market now.  

Consider what your goats are for and what your potential market is.  If they are meat goats, I would not be too concered as most will be terminal animals.  The abcesses do not affect goats internally as frequently as they do sheep so carcass rejection is less of a possibility.  If they are dairy goats this will be different but since I don't sell dairy goats I cannot advise you there.  If they are show animals, I think it would be irresponsible to bring an infected animal to a show where it is exposed to other people's animals.  I know that it has happened and not always unknowningly.  Not everyone feels the same way and agian I dont' deal in show animals so I am not the best person to advise there.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 19, 2012)

Culling, I think, is an individual choice.   I think the factors are based on,  a number of things.   But ultimately it comes down to how much the animal is worth to the individual owner in terms of time and emotional investment.  Even farmers who have to make financial choices still make keep an animal that is costing them money because of an emotional decision.  So,  if there is a way to manage CL, and it can be done safely, any source for doing so is worth knowing about and considering.   

For what it is worth,  while in Washington, I hade one of the best goat vets in the world.  She helped me review Suzanne Gasparetto's website, the Fias Co Farms website and alot of the info on this website to vet for accuracy and  for veterinary standard of practice because she knew that I was moving and would not necessarily have a goat vet.  She didn't find anything lacking.

AND she agreed with what Straw Hat Kikos said about CL.  She taught me all of what he just related in case one of my goats ever came up positive or I had to help someone else with a CL positive goat.    

Fortunately I don't have a goat with CL.


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## Marianne (Oct 19, 2012)

I've been there; CL is a nusiance that I never want to deal with again.  Had CL absesses pop up on not one, but two healthy does while they were nursing kids.  Pregnancy and nursing probably lowered their bodies' ability to fight it.  The key is not to let any of the exudate contaminate your pens and pastures!  As long as you keep the problem contained in the goat -- you are fairly safe.  At this point, I would want to be sure it's CL!  If it is, there are ways to treat the absesses -- incision and clean out or Formalin injection.  Have done both.  Keeping up with one or two goats might be OK using either process; but, for me, having potential for treating more goats with the problem was just over the top.  I no longer have any goats from the original herd.  To lessen contamination pens/pastures have been treated with Trisodium Phosphate and we have had a very hot, dry summer (unfriendly to bacteria).  Every goat in our pasture has had the new CL VACCINE.  Just hope the vaccine (which may reduce possible contamination by 80%) is as good as touted.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 19, 2012)

We also vaccinate. And we highly recommend vaccinating.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 19, 2012)

This is a great thread!! So many people have given there idea and thoughts on the matter and all well thought out and well said. There are a fair amount of CL threads here and this is the best of both sides.

Couple notes though. CL does not condemn a goat. It can still be eaten. Just remove the lump(s) and now you have yourself a meat goat. I wouldn't recommend eating one with Internal CL but that's more a sheep disease. 

Also CAE and CL are VERY different. Alot of people lump them together in a sense. They think they are both very bad. CL isn't so bad but CAE is far worse imo.

I agree that if you are showing then CULL the animal. That would be very wrong to spread it to someone else's goats because you brought it to a show. 


Queen Mum. You made my day lol


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2012)

I would like to know what the test results actually are, not just + or -, but what are the actual numbers? UC Davis stated in one of their news letters that the results can be as high as 1:128 and the animal still be negative. They used to say that it was anything over 1:8. I have 2 does that have titers of 1:16 and 1:32 and in the 4 years I have owned them I have never seen an abcess. 

Sorry you are dealing with this, the uncertainty is not fun.


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## Arabiansnob (Oct 25, 2012)

So I have a few questions?  When you say it stays in the soil, when winter come would the frost and snow kill it?  Because it getting really cold up her in Maine.  And the only way it can be passed to the other animal, is if the negative goat ingests or gets the pus from a positive goat in a wound they have?  Am i correct?    Now to clean the stall areas can I use Bleach? and will have have to wash very thoroughly to get all the bleach out as to not hurt the goat if they for some reason lick the walls?   My last question is they can get it from drinking out of the same water troth can they?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 25, 2012)

> When you say it stays in the soil, when winter come would the frost and snow kill it?  Because it getting really cold up her in Maine.


I'm not sure if it would or not. I do know that under IDEAL conditions it can live in the soil for three years. 



> And the only way it can be passed to the other animal, is if the negative goat ingests or gets the pus from a positive goat in a wound they have?  Am i correct?


Correct.



> Now to clean the stall areas can I use Bleach? and will have have to wash very thoroughly to get all the bleach out as to not hurt the goat if they for some reason lick the walls?


Yes!! Use bleach. It should kill it as Bleach kills everything. Just be sure to rinse it real well and they should be good there. 



> My last question is they can get it from drinking out of the same water troth can they?


No. The only way it is transmitted is by direct contact with the puss. As long as there is no puss in the water they will be fine.

As long as your goats do not have a lump or an abscess then there have no chance of getting CL so no need to worry. You really should re-test them as there are false positives.


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## Arabiansnob (Oct 25, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> > When you say it stays in the soil, when winter come would the frost and snow kill it?  Because it getting really cold up her in Maine.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if it would or not. I do know that under IDEAL conditions it can live in the soil for three years.
> ...


I am deffinatley will!   My lasy question is, Say the both really have CL, the positive doe has been rinning with my doe herd since may.  My buck has been with a negitive doe who I kept with him to try to get her pregnant (she has never been able to get pregnant)  How much time would it take for them to acually positive or it to acually start?  Also I have never seen a lump or abscess on the 2 positive goats?  Is it usual they they dont appear sometimes?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Oct 25, 2012)

> I am deffinatley will!   My lasy question is, Say the both really have CL, the positive doe has been rinning with my doe herd since may.  My buck has been with a negitive doe who I kept with him to try to get her pregnant (she has never been able to get pregnant)  How much time would it take for them to acually positive or it to acually start?  Also I have never seen a lump or abscess on the 2 positive goats?  Is it usual they they dont appear sometimes?


It takes many months for a lump to show up after they have contracted CL. Most of the time it takes 6-8 months for a lump to show up after getting CL. It can be as little as 2 months but that is VERY rare.

Sure. It can happen. They may have CL but the never have a lump, thus never spreading it to anyone. If that's the case then that's the same as having a CL- goat wouldn't it?


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