# New Livestock Med Laws!!



## misfitmorgan (Dec 20, 2016)

Don't forget everyone the new Livestock med laws go into effect on 1/1/2017...this includes things such as Di-methox oral solution...so stock up if you use this a lot and dont want to have to get a script every time you need it.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 20, 2016)

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/dont_wait_be_ready_new_antibiotic_rules_for_2017


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 20, 2016)

I ment to put this in the general section not under goats. @Latestarter could you move this to herds general under Emergencies, Injuries, Diseases, and Cures? Pretty please


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 20, 2016)

Thank you!


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## babsbag (Dec 20, 2016)

I can honestly say that I have never added an antibiotic to my goats or chickens feed or water so I am not too worried about this round. In CA when the antibiotic laws go into affect in Jan 2018 it will be an entirely different story for me.  I would bet that the FDA pulls OTC antibiotics in the not to distant future.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 21, 2016)

I was mostly thinking of anyone that uses Di-methox oral for treating cocci since that is off label and under the new 2017 laws the vets are being greatly discouraged from recommending off label use for the VFD meds.


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## babsbag (Dec 21, 2016)

When I used to use Di-Methox I used the injectable given orally.  As crazy as it sounds you should still be able to buy that OTC but not the powdered to mix with water. All I can say is "whatever".


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## greybeard (Dec 21, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Don't forget everyone the new Livestock med laws go into effect on 1/1/2017...this includes things such as Di-methox oral solution...so stock up if you use this a lot and dont want to have to get a script every time you need it.


Why reccommend people 'stock up" since the rules are very explicit?
Not only will it be illegal to buy it without prescription from a licensed vet, it will also be illegal to USE it without said prescription, regardless of when you purchased it.  You can't stock up and still be in compliance. 
_
2.  Can I stock up in December and feed after Jan 1st?

There is nothing to prevent you from buying a large amount of a VFD medicated product in December. However, in order to legally feed or use that product after Jan 1st, you will need to have a valid VFD on file at home and with your veterinarian._


................


> I was mostly thinking of anyone that uses Di-methox oral for treating cocci since that is off label and under the new 2017 laws the vets are being greatly discouraged from recommending off label use for the VFD meds.


Greatly discouraged?
Hardly descriptive enough--they can lose their license for recommending any off label use of many drugs, probably including the one in question and it will only get worse after the new rules go in to effect. There are already a number of feeds that have previously carried a label claiming some therapeutic value that simply will not be available after the new year. 

Babsbag:
How to you accommodate the differences in the injectable and the oral formulations?
Oral:
_*12.5% Concentrated Solution for Use in Drinking Water
Antibacterial*
ANADA 200-030, Approved by FDA
*EACH FLUID OUNCE CONTAINS* *3.75g SULFADIMETHOXINE SOLUBILIZED WITH SODIUM HYDROXIDE*_*
*
Injectable:
_
* INJECTION - 40%)
Antibacterial*
ANADA 200-177, Approved by FDA

*Each mL contains 400 mg sulfadimethoxine compounded with 20% propylene glycol, 1% benzyl alcohol (preservative), 0.1 mg disodium edetate, 1 mg sodium formaldehyde sulfoxylate, and pH adjusted with sodium hydroxide.*_*
*
As you stated..it will not be surprising to learn one day that FDA will pull all OTC sales of human use antibiotics. They will be watching to see how effective VFD works, and how many people adhere to both the spirit and letter of the law, and if they are not satisfied, they will go the next level.


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## babsbag (Dec 21, 2016)

@greybeard  I have never used DiMethox that goes in the water and the dosage I use for the injectable is from my vet. When the water mixed stuff is used how in the world does a person know how much the animal is getting unless they are being drenched?  And if I have to drench them I would rather do 1 or 2 cc than 5 or 6cc. 

This is what FARAD says about DiMethox.

*SULFONAMIDE–CLASS ANTIBIOTICS*
– ELDU of all sulfonamides and potentiated sulfonamides is prohibited in adult lactating dairy cattle or dairy cattle
greater than 20 months of age.
– only* labeled* uses of approved sulfonamides are allowed.
– ELDU of sulfonamides in milking sheep and goats is discouraged but not prohibited.
The label on the 12.5% liquid says that it can be used for cocci so it shouldn't be a problem; a vet should be able to give the producer a VFD for its purchase. 

However, this is what the label on the injectable says that it is to be used for. So there would be no ELDU for the injectable for cocci. But right now you can still buy it and use it.       

For the treatment of bovine respiratory disease complex (shipping fever complex) and bacterial pneumonia associated with _Pasteurella_ spp sensitive to sulfadimethoxine; necrotic pododermatitis (foot rot) and calf diphtheria caused by _Fusobacterium necrophorum (Sphaerophorus necrophorus),_ sensitive to sulfadimethoxine.

It is all confusing to be sure. I thought that CA was pulling all OTC antibiotics in Jan 2017 but it will be Jan 2018.  All I can say about any of it is to get a relationship with a good vet that will hopefully work with you and not just see $$$.  The vet has to have seen the animal or the HERD but it doesn't state how frequently that visit has to happen. But there does need to be knowledge of your operation and your animals. Unfortunately it will most likely get expensive for the person that owns a few animals to get treatment and if your vet is not familiar with what drugs can be used for what disease and on what animals then they will have to do the research and they will have to want to do the research. I know of one vet that is retiring due to the VFD and another that will no longer see large animals.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 21, 2016)

The antibiotic we use mostly Excenel we get from our vet already
It's not available over the counter

For coccidia we use Toltrazuril which isn't FDA   approved at all


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## babsbag (Dec 21, 2016)

The only antibiotics I have ever used are Oxytetracycline and Penicillin and the Pen only when I am told to. I really don't like to administer that drug.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 21, 2016)

I've never had to use antibiotics...  I am really not looking forward to  it.  Won't do it without a vet anyway so won't  affect me much.  I am still a little confused as to who this will affect the most because I am confused about what exactly is going to still be available and what is not. 

Like,  are medicated feeds included? I don't use them,  but I have used medicated feed in the past for hatchery chicks.  I used it for my runt piglet briefly per the breeder's recommendation.  

Clueless here...


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## greybeard (Dec 21, 2016)

> However, this is what the label on the injectable says that it is to be used for. So there would be no ELDU for the injectable for cocci. But right now you can still buy it and use it.


Yes--right now. But, after the effective date of the new FDA rules (Jan 2017) one cannot (by law) USE any drug requiring VFD unless they have a vet's prescription for said drug or other substance. 
Doesn't matter when it was purchased. After effective date, the user will still need to have that prescription on file both at home and with the prescribing vet. 

NH Homesteader:
Yes, some medicated feeds are affected. I've already seen the new labels on medicated creep feed for calves. 
And this, from Hi-Pro feeds:
*The Veterinary Feed Directive law (VFD) goes into effect starting January 1, 2017.  VFD’s will be required to purchase VFD medicated feeds.  *

*Drugs that are considered medically important to human medicine will require a Veterinary Feed Directive to be purchased. This Feed containing Aureomycin(chlortetracycline) will require a VFD at that time.*

_*CTC fed for “Increased rate of weight gain and feed efficiency”  will no longer be legal.  Creep Feed will be offered as a non medicated product or as a custom mix containing CTC at a approved level requiring a VFD.*_
(CTC=Chloretetracycline)

I'm not sure how this will be handled at Point of Purchase, but I suspect it will be similar to how restricted herbicides are sold. Many herbicides and pesticides sold at even Tractor Supply are restricted--you need an applicator's license to buy them. Each jug of a restricted substance has a big orange label across it that says "RESTRICTED PRODUCT" and to buy it, you have to present your license at the checkout counter. I'm guessing they will be asking to see a prescription for any medicated feeds as well.


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## babsbag (Dec 21, 2016)

The injectable DI-Methox will still be available after Jan but by law it should never be used for cocci as it isn't labeled as such but because it is not intended to be added to food or administered orally it will slip under the law and the need for a VFD. 

But the powder and liquid are labeled for cocci and should be available with VFD. 

As far as medicated feed it depends on what medication is in it. If it is for cocci, such as rumensin in goat feed and medicated chick starter, then it should still be available. It is only antibiotics that they are targeting at this time.  

I lied, I did use Scour Halt once with some baby goats.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 22, 2016)

greybeard said:


> Why reccommend people 'stock up" since the rules are very explicit?
> Not only will it be illegal to buy it without prescription from a licensed vet, it will also be illegal to USE it without said prescription, regardless of when you purchased it.  You can't stock up and still be in compliance.
> _
> 2.  Can I stock up in December and feed after Jan 1st?
> ...



Well considering many many people who are not commercial producers use off-label medications on their livestock all the time without asking a vet and also go to other states to get things that are illegal to use in their state.....is why i said stock up if you use it. Those of us not fortunate enough to have a goat/sheep vet or a large animal vet close enough to actually come to the farm. we do what we need to do to take care of the animals whether it complies with FDA or not.

Vets have always been able to lose their license for prescribing off-label meds, this new law will not change that and not stop most of them from doing it. The only way to legally use any off-label med is to have it prescribed by a vet to a specific animal/herd for a specific time frame as far as i understand it. Guess i don't really understand your point here, losing their license is not a new thing..the new laws will just make it easier for the gov to check up on the vets and producers.


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## greybeard (Dec 22, 2016)

> the new laws will just make it easier for the gov to check up on the vets and producers.


That, is my point. The new rules will require both the livestock owner and the vet to document anti-bacterial use in more detail, making it easier for the authorities to audit either. FDA has already,  notified at least 2 producers that during the 1st year of implementation,they will be under scrutiny and will be audited. That, is a courtesy. Going forward, I doubt there will be any advance warning or notifications.

Agencies such as the FDA don't work blindly--their compliance enforcement divisions  have powerful tools nowadays to find out if their rules are being followed, and crawling the internet search engines for key words is one of those tools. They will make every reasonable effort to make sure their rules are being followed, and if their research shows there is a lot of skirting of the rules, they will implement even stronger regulations--even to the point of pulling all human/livestock use medications from the arsenal of weapons we use to keep our stock healthy. This is not nearly the only board where I have seen these sort of subjects brought up--every ag forum I have visited in the last few months has one similar. A few website admins have deleted or locked the threads and for good reason. They understand the effectiveness of search bots that crawl every website on the web.

It's not just the agencies themselves either. Something called "Social Justice" activists will be more than happy to complain to the convening authorities that 'we' are not following the laws, should they happen upon threads such as this one.  

These rules came into effect because the general public, and especially the end consumers of meat and dairy wanted them to. We as producers, big and small, are very much in the minority. I saw recently, this VFD subject come up in the "off topic" section of a car forum I am on. Someone explained the rules, and asked for comments. Every single respondent was of the same mind. No one blamed the drug companies, the feed mills, or the feed stores, or Tractor Supply, or the vets. Every person blamed 'us'--you and I, and they saw no difference between a big farmer that sold or treated 500 animals each spring and 250 hobbyists that sold or treated 2 animals each. The end effect, is the same.

I don't at all advocate that this thread be locked or deleted, but we should be careful in what we say in regards to our activities vis-a-vis VFD--we members aren't the only ones reading...
IMO, public posting of suggestions of how to avoid these rules can be counter-productive. It plays right into the mindset of the general public that livestock producers are over medicating or un-necessarily medicating with human use anti-bacterials. 

I sure don't like, that I will have to drive the 28 miles one way to my vet to get a prescription for medicated creep feed, but I'm going to do it, because that's the law.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 22, 2016)

I understand your concern but myself and those who live locally to me will not be following those new laws. It is not practical and not feasible for most. If the FDA wants to come and get me and my 7 goats they can feel free too....they first have to prove i was using VFD meds in my livestock after the cut off date and without a script so good luck to them.

You have your views and i have mine.

I am certain as heck not going to drive the 51 miles one way to go to the vet who knows nothing about livestock and charges $108 for an office visit even without an animal there, nor am i going to drive 32miles to the other vet where i have to leave work 2hrs early to make it there before they close, and i definitely am not driving 69miles one way to the closest large animal vet who last treated a goat 7 years before i went there.....in fact the closest vet who knows jack about goats is 139miles one way. The other yahoo's closer to me wont give scripts without first developing a farm relationship...but wont come to the farm unless you have an office relationship first...which makes no sense. I have called every vet i could find in a reasonable distance and they will not come do a farm call even if i offer to pay extra for travel time/gas/etc. I used one vet for our lamb last year and he had never seen a lamb before, that ended up costing me around $700 by the time it was done and then 2 months later when i asked if they would do a farm call they said no but i was welcome to bring all my livestock to the office, including the animals who were due soon. To top that all off i had to explain to them what testing i wanted done and what samples they needed to collect because they werent sure and then they asked me if i happened to know where the best place to send the samples was.  

So no i wont be doing that.

We will have to agree to disagree.


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## greybeard (Dec 23, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> I understand your concern but myself and those who live locally to me will not be following those new laws. It is not practical and not feasible for most. If the FDA wants to come and get me and my 7 goats they can feel free too....they first have to prove i was using VFD meds in my livestock after the cut off date and without a script so good luck to them.
> 
> You have your views and i have mine.
> 
> ...


yep.

Most of the time, If I need a vet's assistance, I pen, load, and haul them to her. She has more assets available there than she can haul out here. Same with my secondary vet, over in the next county. If it's an emergency and I can't get one of them loaded or even up,  I will still call one of them to come out.

I've usually done all the vaccinations and routine health care maintenance on all my animals but
to further my veterinarian-client-patient- relationship, (which is a big component of VFD) I will probably let my vet do the vaccinations this next spring, which will allow her to get a better idea of how I do things, my herd's general health and condition, better knowledge of my handling facility, as well as having better insight as to how knowledgeable and experienced I am. That way, when I need something like Nuflor or Draxxin, it won't be a problem to run by and pick it up from her, or to have the legal documentation available if I need some medicated feed or other product from a local retailer.

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/ucm448871.htm#accountable

This is the letter that FDA sent to all retailers and distributors regarding VFD. Looks like they "may" be leaving the point of purchase enforcement between retailer and customer up to the individual state regulatory agencies.

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Animal...ce/JudiciousUseofAntimicrobials/UCM507354.pdf


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## babsbag (Dec 23, 2016)

I have never had my vet out to my farm but I have had a few of my goats to her office. But now that I have the dairy on the horizon I need all the goats tested for TB so she is coming to my place, twice. Hopefully I won't need much more than that from her and since I don't use medicated feed with goats unless I have a catastrophic event in my herd I should be good, at least for another year.  My vet is also a friend so that helps with the level of trust she has in my skills. I need to take a goat to her she is only 20 miles away and I have a horse trailer so unless there is an emergency and the goat is down I am ok going to her.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 23, 2016)

@greybeard I like your way of thinking! 



greybeard said:


> I don't at all advocate that this thread be locked or deleted, but we should be careful in what we say in regards to our activities vis-a-vis VFD--we members aren't the only ones reading...
> IMO, public posting of suggestions of how to avoid these rules can be counter-productive. It plays right into the mindset of the general public that livestock producers are over medicating or un-necessarily medicating with human use anti-bacterials.
> 
> I sure don't like, that I will have to drive the 28 miles one way to my vet to get a prescription for medicated creep feed, but I'm going to do it, because that's the law.


I completely agree. People do not realize how popular these forums are and who is reading. I'm not trying to sound paranoid, but I know groups are being watched. I understand the want to help others but so many (not just on BYH) suggests to use xyz drug for ---------. In the goat world just about every drug is off label too… Not good. 

I came across an old thread on a huge, very popular goat forum that I'm not even a part of. Very well known site. 
Someone was selling about 80cc's of Nuflor
They had only used 20cc's and didn't think they'd need it. 

Anyway, a Rx antibiotic being sold over the internet. 

Now, I realize that I'm pretty much re-posting that, but people need to be smart and think.

Obviously this doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen. 

More and more vets are afraid to sell a whole bottle of something for someone to keep it on their shelf for this reason.


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## casportpony (Dec 26, 2016)

greybeard said:


> Babsbag:
> How to you accommodate the differences in the injectable and the oral formulations?
> Oral:
> _*12.5% Concentrated Solution for Use in Drinking Water
> ...



It's pretty easy...

One ml of 12.5% Di-Methox = 125 mg
One ml of injectable Di-methox = 400 mg

All one as to know is how many mg per pound or kg to give and how much their animal weighs. From that one just does a little math.


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## casportpony (Dec 26, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Don't forget everyone the new Livestock med laws go into effect on 1/1/2017...this includes things such as Di-methox oral solution...so stock up if you use this a lot and dont want to have to get a script every time you need it.


I've been thinking about placing an order for some water soluble sulfa, and maybe some neomycin.


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## babsbag (Dec 26, 2016)

better hurry on the sulfa. I am going to get some Scour Halt this week myself.


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## casportpony (Dec 26, 2016)

babsbag said:


> better hurry on the sulfa. I am going to get some Scour Halt this week myself.


What is scour halt?


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## casportpony (Dec 26, 2016)

Nevermind, looks like it's Spectinomycin.


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## babsbag (Dec 26, 2016)

It is the only antibiotic I have ever used other than Oxytetracycline and Pen. Good to have on hand and I loaned mine to a friend.


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## casportpony (Dec 26, 2016)

So I wonder if people will be buying up a bunch of antibiotics and then sell them on ebay? Tylan Powder is already prescription only, and I see it for sale on eBay and Amazon.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 27, 2016)

I'm not sure why TYlan powder is RX and Tylan injectable is OTC....its the same drug.

I'm sure if i ever needed something like Nuflor the animal would just have to die or be shot because these vets here will NOT do a farm call for a "small farm, new client" even after you fulfill the "requirements" they say you need to do. My friends wife ended up finally riding her horse to the vet because she had no trailer and the vet wouldnt come out to see the horse. If we owned a livestock trailer to be able to move livestock i might consider taking the whole herd to the vet but atm we are limited to taking one or two at a time in the back of the trailblazer.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 27, 2016)

The vet I want to use doesn't do farm calls so I'm looking for a trailer to do just that!


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## casportpony (Dec 27, 2016)

Got my orders in!


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## Latestarter (Dec 27, 2016)

All these places that don't have vets to make farm calls... What does a dairy or cattle farm do when they have a birthing problem? Do they have vets on staff? I don't see them taking a cow in stalled labor to a vet in a trailer...


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## babsbag (Dec 27, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> I'm not sure why TYlan powder is RX and Tylan injectable is OTC....its the same drug.



Tylan powder is Rx because it is a food or water additive and the injectable is not. They are not limiting antibiotics in general, only the ones that are added to feed and water.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 27, 2016)

The one I'm talking about specializes in goats and sheep.  And he will talk you through it on the phone.  I imagine he would do limited local farm calls but I'm not close to him at all.


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## babsbag (Dec 27, 2016)

Many vets will do a one time farm call and see your herd and your setup. Then if you have a sick animal you can call and give the details and they can then legally give you the meds without another visit. It is important that we learn to listen for lungs sounds, rumen sounds, take temps, give injections, and just be aware of changes in our animals. We have to be the eyes and ears. My vet is going to require a farm visit every 6-12 months depending on how often the herd dynamics change.


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## alsea1 (Dec 27, 2016)

It may serve to learn as much as possible about herbal healing. 
I don't really think this law will have the desired effect as the large corp. outfits will have vets sign off on whatever they do now anyway.
It may well hurt the small time people that have a few head.  
When I first heard about this I had my vet come out and do a farm call to see my animals and set up. It has paid off already.


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## Green Acres Farm (Dec 27, 2016)

This won't affect me very much. I've even ordered OTC meds from my vet instead of online.

But, wouldn't be good for people with no vet nearby.


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## casportpony (Dec 28, 2016)

All of these drugs will still be available if you know where to look, but it could take many days to have them shipped. Any of you ever seen a pigeon supply website or the Hawkes Twin City Poultry site?


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## greybeard (Dec 28, 2016)

I suspect at some point, the FDA or state agencies will be cracking down on the sale of Rx drugs on eBay/craigslist type places, just as they are beginning to do in regards to internet suppliers that sell restricted herbicides without verifying the buyer has an applicator's license. 
History has shown too, that in any situation, if a black/grey market demand is there, there will always be a black/grey market seller to meet said demand. 
History has also shown, that the more people there are willing to participate in that activity, the more stringent the laws and rules will become.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 28, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> All these places that don't have vets to make farm calls... What does a dairy or cattle farm do when they have a birthing problem? Do they have vets on staff? I don't see them taking a cow in stalled labor to a vet in a trailer...



They kill the calf, cut it up and pull it out dead or depending on the case kill the cow but the cow is always worth more then the calf so it depends on calf sex and cow age if they can determine all that. The large diary farms can get the vet to come out if they have more then one thing needed...like labor trouble with one cow. The vets will do see large cattle farmers because thats "big money", they have no interest in seeing small farms of mixed animals or even small herds of cattle. The only large animals most vets here will come see are horses(has to be more then one) or cattle and it has to be more then one there too.

Things never used to be like this but the old vets are retiring or dying and the middle-aged vets are retiring or only mentoring young vets and the young vets dont want to do farm calls. Takes to much time for to little pay is what they say. Going out to a farm and floating the teeth of one horse they charge $45 for the farm visit and $30 to float teeth...then minus mileage and time spent out of the office, compared to $30-80 for an office visit(depending on vet) and $30 to float teeth no mileage or time out of the office costs.

If they can say go out and TB skin test a cattle herd of 30 cows and charge the $45 farm visit plus $15 per cow/heifer/bull plus another $45 farm visit fee to come back and check the tests results which is $540 plus if any cows come back suspect they must be CCT tested giving the vet two more $45 fees plus the cost per cow to be tested. It they come back suspect from the CCT test it is done again giving 2 more farm visit fees plus cost per cow. If they again come back suspect the cow will be removed from the farm, killed and sent for testing. If those tests reveal they are positive for Bovine TB any cows who tested suspect on the first CCT much be tested again however they encourage entire herd depopulation which is a nice way of saying kill the entire herd and start over after waiting 1year beyond when the farm is sterilized. Upon repopulation the new herd must be tested a minimum of 6 times in 24 months and that is every single cow/heifer/bull. So yeah they will happily go TB test for large farms because most generally they get a few thousand dollars by the time they are done with that farm for the year.


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## casportpony (Dec 28, 2016)

Here vets get close to $200 for floating a horses teeth.


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## casportpony (Dec 28, 2016)

greybeard said:


> I suspect at some point, the FDA or state agencies will be cracking down on the sale of Rx drugs on eBay/craigslist type places, just as they are beginning to do in regards to internet suppliers that sell restricted herbicides without verifying the buyer has an applicator's license.
> History has shown too, that in any situation, if a black/grey market demand is there, there will always be a black/grey market seller to meet said demand.
> History has also shown, that the more people there are willing to participate in that activity, the more stringent the laws and rules will become.


Baytril has always been a prescription drug, and it's been banned for use in poultry for many years I think, but places like Hawkes seem to fly under the radar.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 28, 2016)

casportpony said:


> Baytril has always been a prescription drug, and it's been banned for use in poultry for many years I think, but places like Hawkes seem to fly under the radar.



Why on earth are they using Baytril for poultry?


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## babsbag (Dec 28, 2016)

The only food animal that Baytril can be used in is cattle and swine, no extra label use allowed.


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## casportpony (Dec 28, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Why on earth are they using Baytril for poultry?


Many people do use it in poultry. Hawkes does have this disclaimer "*Do not use in poultry that are producing eggs or meat for comsumption!"
*


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## greybeard (Dec 28, 2016)

That says more about the people that are using it extra label than it does about the vendor that sold it.
From what I gather, all the retailer has to do to remain FDA/VDF compliant is to inform the FDA that they are selling the products. The onus is upon the end user to follow the laws and rules of the land.


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## casportpony (Dec 28, 2016)

So I am one of those that uses drugs that are banned, and I also use drugs "extra label" when treating my Peafowl and pet turkeys, and I do it with my vet's blessing, but anything that might be sold for meat doesn't get treated with the banned drugs, period.


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## casportpony (Dec 28, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Why on earth are they using Baytril for poultry?


Because it's the only drug that is likely to treat many E. coli, pseudomonas aeruginosa, and the various respiratory diseases.


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## Latestarter (Dec 28, 2016)

As long as you're doing it with a vet's OK, I guess that makes it OK... Just have to observe the withdrawal periods.


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## babsbag (Dec 28, 2016)

Actually Baytril is not allowed extra label use in any food producing animal. Vet or no vet. It is listed for use in non-lactating cattle and in swine.  

I am not saying what is right or wrong, only what is legally allowed. Your vet could lose their license over this. I also can't say that I wouldn't do the same as I trust myself to be responsible.


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## casportpony (Dec 29, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> As long as you're doing it with a vet's OK, I guess that makes it OK... Just have to observe the withdrawal periods.


Sort of my thinking...


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## casportpony (Dec 29, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Actually Baytril is not allowed extra label use in any food producing animal. Vet or no vet. It is listed for use in non-lactating cattle and in swine.
> 
> I am not saying what is right or wrong, only what is legally allowed. Your vet could lose their license over this. I also can't say that I wouldn't do the same as I trust myself to be responsible.


I know there are vets that won't prescribe it, but there are plenty that do.

Curiously, what do people do for their livestock when they require treatment for pesky bacteria that are resistant to all the usual antibiotics (tetracyline, amoxicillin, sulfa, tylosin, etc)?


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## greybeard (Dec 29, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> As long as you're doing it with a vet's OK, I guess that makes it OK... Just have to observe the withdrawal periods.



What Babsbag said..

*1.*It is to some extent, to address this, that prompted FDA to implement VFD. It's not just about small and large producers using antibiotics--VFD also puts the medical community on notice, as more strict record keeping and reporting will be a big part of VFD, both for the end user and the vet writing the prescription.

We have to remember, that 'we' are, in the eyes of the vast majority of the global public, the 'bad guys' here. They don't care (understandable) that I may lose a calf, or that casportpony may lose some poultry--they only know there is a possibility that they may lose a child or other loved one if an antigen becomes immune or resistant to what was previously an effective antibiotic. It's not just vets and producers that have caused antimicrobial resistance--family & general practitioners are to blame as well, as are we all-- in expecting what we used to call 'wonder drugs' to magically cure our human ills.

It's also not just the problems created in meat or milk producing or human food use animals. Many of the bacteria we need to fight, are naturally present in the soil. Commonly used antibiotics are excreted in the urine and feces of our animals, interact with the naturally occurring antigens in the soil microbiome and resistance to those antibiotics can and often does begin.
Officially, (according to the USDA census) there are about 2.2 million farms and ranches in the USA. Probably closer to 3 million if every little hobby or backyard farm was counted. (How many here received and returned a USDA census form? Probably not many)
Even according to USDA, about 40% of the recognized farms are small farmers with little or no actual income from their farm--that's nearly 1/2. Small in production, but large in numbers.
3 million--seems like a large number of families, but compared to the 123 million total households in the US, we as farmers are very much a minority. That means that there are 120 million households, that while recognizing the strong importance of food production, they also see "US" as one of the culprits responsible for antibiotic resistance and inefficiency.
FDA takes (as do I) a long view of things, and to be honest, their responsibility is to the majority's well being, more so than our convenience. They aren't asking us to sit idly by and watch our animals die--they are simply insisting that we be responsible in our actions, and follow rules and regulations--some of which have already been in place a very long time but still greatly ignored or abused.

*2* From a purely ethical standpoint....
As I stated earlier, 'we' members aren't the only ones reading this. Right now, there are 10 members and 74 guests viewing BYH. Many people find this website while looking for information. One of the purposes of a discussion board such as BYH is to teach. To mentor the many very young people who are interested in raising a few animals on small acreage simply  for the enjoyment and experience of it, and to provide insight thru our years of experience to older people who may want to return to their roots in a small way in agriculture. 4H/FFA and just the kid that has a desire to do something besides play video games.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves..
Are we leading by example?
Are we doing the 'right thing' when we post ways to get around rules and regulations?
Do we really need to be handing more ammunition to the many people who basically view 'us' as villains and part of the problem regarding the subject of over use and inappropriate use of antibiotics?
I don't think so. I work a lot with kids, local 4H/FFA, spend lots of time, $$, and have had them out here learning to use a cattle handling facility, learn as we work the cattle, treat for illness, deworm,  and administer vaccines. I can't imagine me standing there telling  them to ignore or bypass VFD or any other regulations or instructions on a bottle of drugs, but that's exactly what often happens on internet boards. 
We now, thru FDA's VFD, find ourselves in a bit of a hole, finding it more difficult to deal with our herds' medical problems. One thing I have learned in 66 years..when I find myself in a hole--stop digging.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 29, 2016)

Fantastic post @greybeard


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

casportpony said:


> Curiously, what do people do for their livestock when they require treatment for pesky bacteria that are resistant to all the usual antibiotics (tetracyline, amoxicillin, sulfa, tylosin, etc)?



Since I live in CA and have access to a great lab and a great vet I send cultures to CAHFS and find out what drug will work. There are usually many options but so far it has always been a common antibiotic that has done the trick.  

These are the drugs that CANNOT be used extra label in food producing animals. If they are not labeled for use in a specific animal species they can't be used, even under the advice from your vet. 

CHLORAMPHENICOL
CLENBUTEROL
DIETHYLSTILBESTEROL (DES)
FLUOROQUINOLONE–CLASS ANTIBIOTICS
GLYCOPEPTIDES – all agents, including VANCOMYCIN
MEDICATED FEEDS
NITROIMIDAZOLES – all agents, including DIMETRIDAZOLE, IPRONIDAZOLE, METRONIDAZOLE and others
NITROFURANS – all agents, including FURAZOLIDINE, NITROFURAZONE and others

Since I will have a dairy here and will be selling milk and cheese I need to pay extra attention to the drugs I give my goats. The milk is only tested for Pen. but it is my job to make sure there aren't any other residues in the milk. If I had a chronically sick goat I would have to cull her or at the very least pull her from the milking string permanently. But if she is sick and contagious and not responding to treatment I will have to be the cold hearted producer and send her packing.   I have one like that right now....

We need to remember the big picture though. Someday it may be one of us or a loved one facing a resistant bug and then what? A human life is always more important that an animal. (even though I sometimes like animals better than some humans.  )  The FDA is not being "mean" or "picking on ranchers". They are protecting human life...like Star Trek..."the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few" and we just happen to the "few".


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## Southern by choice (Dec 29, 2016)

greybeard said:


> What Babsbag said..
> 
> *1.*It is to some extent, to address this, that prompted FDA to implement VFD. It's not just about small and large producers using antibiotics--VFD also puts the medical community on notice, as more strict record keeping and reporting will be a big part of VFD, both for the end user and the vet writing the prescription.
> 
> ...





Well said.

*"Are we leading by example?"
"Are we doing the 'right thing' when we post ways to get around rules and regulations?"
*
Exactly!

Instead of fretting over the Rx and restrictions the focus should be on helping others understand how to keep healthy goats and minimize health issues.
It is irresponsible for anyone to encourage others to "get around" it or encourage illegal use of the Rx meds.
If you cannot afford a vet then do not keep livestock. If you are in a region that has no vet that you can work with then perhaps the species you desire may not be the best option.

Breeders do have a responsibility when selling their animals as well. 

If respiratory issues are prevalent then vaccinating is a far better option.
Understanding parasites and how to deal with them is another big issue.

I do think the FDA has just made the livestock industry its scapegoat however. What if MD's were under the same scrutiny? This is where the real resistance has come in. Physicians over prescribing antibiotics unnecessarily. Then when easier more potent ab's came out it was the beginning of the resistance battle. Drs. handing out the stronger RX that "you only have to take for 5 days 2x day... instead of 10 days 4x day... you know it was more convenient but also started big issues. 

The vets I know are very upset about the new laws/regulations.


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## greybeard (Dec 29, 2016)

Babsbag:
I'm old enough to remember when DES implants and feed additives were taught as being THE thing to use to increase production in beef cattle...
Even the FDA can get it wrong.



> Thus the time-line for the rise and fall of DES is as follows.
> 1954 FDA approves oral DES feeding.
> 1957 FDA approves DES implants.
> 1959–1975 USDA isotope studies show DES residues of < 2 to 3 ppb.
> ...



Southern by Choice:
I agree agriculture is being scapegoated, but it's not without some merit, and yes, my generation and my children's generation  certainly saw a LOT of over prescribing antibiotic use in humans. 
_"Oh, we're not exactly sure  what's going on there with little Greybeard, but we're gonna give him a shot of sulfa and pen just to be sure.."_
It happened a lot. 
(didn't help me any--turned out I was allergic to both and dang near died from the 'cure')


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 29, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> If you cannot afford a vet then do not keep livestock. If you are in a region that has no vet that you can work with then perhaps the species you desire may not be the best option.



So i should only have a large number of cattle and my dogs only....?

That's not right that i should be restricted to only a cattle herd because the vets where i live are to money hungry.


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

I really don't understand why the vets should be upset, nothing has really changed for them other than issuing the directive for feed additives.  The general use of injectable antibiotics isn't changing; unless of course they feel that there is going to be more scrutiny by the FDA over their entire practice. The ELDU directives have been around for a long while.


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

For animals that don't depend on medicated feed this should really be a non issue. I think that the cattle, swine, and poultry producers will notice the new laws the most.


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

@misfitmorgan Do have a vet that will treat goats and just not make farm calls? Will they work with you at all? Can you take goats to them for a "check up" with the understanding that in an emergency you can call and get meds that are OTC?  They don't have to see every animal, just a representation of the "herd" and they don't have to see the animal when it is sick if there is knowledge of the herd.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 29, 2016)

Everyone here can have their pros and cons and argue legal vs illegal but i doubt there is one person here who has never used a drug off-label either knowingly or not.

I give my dogs pepto-bismal at times or buffered asprin when my 12yr old dog is in a lot of pain in her joints.....are those off-label uses...definitely doesn't mean i am going to go find the "proper" labeled drugs to give them the few times a year they may need it. 

So far i havnt used a feed/water supplement except corid once....i was going to switch to di-methox but it would be off-label..i also apparently can not use Baycox/Toltrazuril even though several people even a few on this forum use it.


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## Green Acres Farm (Dec 29, 2016)

Okay... So does this mean I can't use DiMethox? And that my vet can't prescribe me that legally or other off label meds?


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 29, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @misfitmorgan Do have a vet that will treat goats and just not make farm calls? Will they work with you at all? Can you take goats to them for a "check up" with the understanding that in an emergency you can call and get meds that are OTC?  They don't have to see every animal, just a representation of the "herd" and they don't have to see the animal when it is sick if there is knowledge of the herd.



Yes they will treat goats but wont make a farm call. They will not prescribe anything over the phone, email, etc, they must see the animal every time. They can not diagnosis anything over the phone they told me. We have had a lamb there, and 3 goats there in their office and taken our fecal samples there....they still wont do anything unless we take the animal to them. I even asked the vet so if i have a goat/sheep/pig in labor having a problem and i think i am going to lose them i have to try to load them in my blazer and drive all the way up here and then un-load them and bring them into your office to get them some help? He said no i will come out to the parking lot but if you think they wont make it up here there is no point bringing them anyhow just let them die at the farm.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 29, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Okay... So does this mean I can't use DiMethox? And that my vet can't prescribe me that legally or other off label meds?



No....they can still prescribe off-label stuff for you.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 29, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> So i should only have a large number of cattle and my dogs only....?
> 
> That's not right that i should be restricted to only a cattle herd because the vets where i live are to money hungry.



That is not what I said. I said *PERHAPS the species you desire may not be the best option*. .

It is something people need to think about.  If there are no vets that will see a goat under any circumstance and/or the closest vet is 3 hrs away then you may want to consider this before hand.
Some livestock vets ( many cattle and horse vets) don't know much about goats and are usually pretty up front about it. They may treat but not be well versed. This is frustrating to a new sheep or goat owner that doesn't have any experience and the overall loss of the animal/s is going to be higher.
Of course the context is in relation to this forum... "back yard herds", which generally is small herd/flock, mostly pets with minimal production.

The flip side is quite frankly there are many that just never want to pay a vet bill and will throw everything at an animal except the kitchen sink... in the end spending more, and half the time the animal dies and in many cases unnecessarily.


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

Dogs are not a food producing animal so all the ELDU laws don't apply. 

You can still use Corid, it isn't on the list.  

@Green Acres Farm You can legally use Dimethox if your vet gives you permission. The stuff added to food or water will require a VFD. The injectable only requires permission as it is extra label but allowed.  You can still buy the injectable OTC. 

Yes, many of us use Baycox, but I for one don't promote it to others unless specifically asked. I also don't use it in adult animals.


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> No....they can still prescribe off-label stuff for you.



There are some drugs with NO off label use. That is the list I posted earlier. Baytril being one of them.


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## greybeard (Dec 29, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I really don't understand why the vets should be upset, nothing has really changed for them other than issuing the directive for feed additives.


It is going to cause them to have to document and keep better records, and they can probably expect to begin seeing a larger influx of new customers either at their facility or on-the farm.
By letter and intent of the ruling, FDA is now going to hold vets (as well as retailers and end users) more responsible for what in some cases was previously OTC substances. 
I don't know what 'teeth' the FDA has included in the ruling other than threat of audits and warning letters, but I suspect at some point they will be long and sharp if practice indicates non-adherence. 

(If I go to town later, I may stop by my local retailer and ask if they have received any official or corporate guidance on how they will verify whether a customer has a prescription for some of the affected medications.)


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## greybeard (Dec 29, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @misfitmorgan Do have a vet that will treat goats and just not make farm calls? Will they work with you at all? Can you take goats to them for a "check up" with the understanding that in an emergency you can call and get meds that are OTC?  They don't have to see every animal, just a representation of the "herd" and they don't have to see the animal when it is sick if there is knowledge of the herd.


Again--this!
This is where the Veterinarian-Client-Patient Relationship, or VCPR comes in to play. Once this trust and knowledge base is established, it will be a lot smoother sailing for each of us, as well as for the vet.


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## casportpony (Dec 29, 2016)

Here is a bunch of info I posted on BYC:
Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



I thought this link was helpful: https://www.beefcattleinstitute.org/changes-antibiotics-regulations/



-Kathy





Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



I read that as "the ionophores (Rumensin, Bovatec, Catalyst), the bambermycins (Gainpro), bacitracin (BMD, Baciferm), and tiamulin (Denegard)" still available, but all other water and feed antibiotics will require a VFD or prescription. All injectables antibiotics, amprolium, and wormers (with the exception of hygromycin B) not affected.



Let me know if I got that wrong.



-Kathy





Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



Quote:
Originally Posted by *Chickerdoodle13* 



Kathy, I have to ask some more questions about that and get back to you. Originally I thought injectables were affected as well but now I'm not 100% sure. I know amprolium will not be affected (I think only chemical coccidiostats will be) and I almost certain wormers will not be affected (though there's a huge resistance problem with those as well, but that's another discussion!).

If I am able to actually find a vet who knows the answer or I read anything different from what you posted, I'll let you know. The first time I really heard a lot about this was at a poultry vet meeting I attended the other day. I knew it was happening but really had no info about it. I did think it was a bit strange that so many small egg companies were all of a sudden looking for vets though!
Thanks, let me know what you find out. Here is a list I found:

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary...ce/JudiciousUseofAntimicrobials/ucm390429.htm



-Kathy





Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



and this:

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/ucm482106.htm

























-Kathy





Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



*http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/dont_wait_be_ready_new_antibiotic_rules_for_2017
Are all antibiotics affected?*
It is important to note not all antibiotics will be considered VFD drugs (Figure 1). *The use of injectable antibiotics will not be affected.* At this time, FDA has only moved antibiotics essential to human medicine and being fed to animals to VFD status. Also, as a part of the new FDA changes, water soluble antibiotics, which are important to human medicine, will now require a prescription from a veterinarian. This transition of water soluble drugs will include Aureomycin® Water Soluble Concentrate (Chlortetracycline).

*Figure 1. Present listing of in and on feed antibiotics outside of VFD directive.*
*
Carbadox                                                                           Ractopamine

Bambermycin                                                                      Melengestrol

Ionophores (i.e. lasalocid and monensin)                                    Decoquinate

Tiamulin                                                                             Fenbendazole

Bacitracin                                                                            Amprolium

*Unless used in combination with a VFD drug.





Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



Check out these TSC links:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/pfizer-animal-health-liquamycin-la-200-100-ml

no comment on needing rx



but the powder says this: "*As of January 1, 2017 this item will no longer be carried by Tractor Supply Company due to updated FDA regulations surrounding Veterinary Feed Directive (VFD) drugs. For more information, please click here: http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/ucm071807.htm"*

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/oxytetracycline-soluble-powder-6-2-5-oz



-Kathy





Quote:
Originally Posted by *casportpony* 



http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Animal...Enforcement/GuidanceforIndustry/UCM052660.pdf

*2017_VFD_FDA.pdf*124k .pdf file


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2016)

*FDA Revises Compliance Policy Guide on Extralabel Use of Medicated Feeds for Minor Species.*

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm529164.htm

Minor species are defined as animals other than cattle, horses, swine, chickens, turkeys, dogs, and cats.

_Extralabel use of medicated feed is not legally permitted and can result in FDA taking enforcement action against the parties involved. However, there are some minor species that cannot practically be medicated in any way other than by using medicated feed. Because of the need to have therapeutic options available for treatment of minor species, and to help ensure animal safety and human food safety, FDA issued the CPG to provide guidance to FDA staff about factors to consider when determining whether to take enforcement action against a veterinarian, animal producer, feed manufacturer, and/or feed distributor for the extralabel use of medicated feeds in minor species. Under the CPG, when there are no approved treatment options available, the health of animals is threatened, and failure to treat affected animals would result in suffering or death, the extralabel use of medicated feeds may be considered for treatment of minor species as long as the conditions and procedures described in the CPG are followed._


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## greybeard (Dec 29, 2016)

> Minor species are defined as animals other than cattle, horses, swine, chickens, turkeys, dogs, and cats


That revision doesn't include a whole lot of livestock species. Rabbits, goats, sheep, non chicken, non-turkey poultry, emu and perhaps bees?


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## babsbag (Dec 30, 2016)

I agree and I was surprised to see dogs and cats listed there at all. Since when do we eat them?  And honestly, I only know of one person that uses medicated feed for goats for anything more than cocci prevention. I guess my thought that the VFD is going to hit poultry, swine, and cattle the hardest still stands.


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