# Surprise!



## Genipher (Oct 10, 2016)

A few weeks ago we bought a Netherland Buck for the doe we're bunny sitting (we had permission from the owners to try breeding her). The people selling her had a Netherland doe they "tossed in" with the sale. Woohoo! It was a win-win for us.

I knew the new doe had been living with the buck (not sure if they're related or not, the seller's sister was the one who handed them off to me and she had no clue) and realized it might be possible for the doe (whom my daughter named Nemmy) to be pregnant. Buuuut...time passed and she didn't appear to be getting bigger. We held her all the time and I never felt any babies. Not that I'm good at palpitating...

_Surprise!_

This morning I go out to check on the rabbits, change bedding, etc. and found three dead babies in Nemmy's cage. Nemmy had a plastic box I'd been filling with straw so she could have a warm, cozy place to sleep; she usually used it as a litter box though. And that's where the kits were.

I didn't realize it until later but, Nemmy NEVER pulled any fur for a nest. It's no wonder the kits froze to death!

I suppose it's for the best, as I strongly suspect Nemmy and PB the buck are siblings. Still...the kids are rather sad over the loss.

And now I need to do some research and find out if straw is enough for a nest. It's been a long time since we've had pregnant rabbits and I've sort-of forgotten protocol...but our other doe, Ebony, has been sharing a large cage with the buck. If she's pregnant, she'll probably "pop" by the end of the month. And I _really_ want some live kits!





Polar Bear (white buck) and Ebony (black doe) share a cage (above).





Nemmy the doe. Sister to Polar Bear?


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

Straw is great nest material. If the Dow hasn't started pulling fur by the 28th day, pull some from her yourself. Though some does wait until the last second, but do pull fur, it is just a good precaution to pull some fur a day or so before kindling time. Make sure the best box isn't too big. The kits could spread out and freeze. But don't make the beatbox to small either, or the doeccould step on them while nursing them. Good luck!!


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## Genipher (Oct 10, 2016)

Thanks for the advice! Ebony actually had a false pregnancy last month. She pulled out fur and made a nest...all for naught. So I have a feeling _she_, at least, will prep a good nest. But Nemmy? She appeared to be clueless. Must've been that first-time mom thing.

I thought I'd made a mistake with the straw as nesting material. I'm glad to hear that it'll work for the future. I also was reading that dryer lint can make a good substitute for fur. That'll be good to remember...

I


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

My New Zealand doe has false pregnancies all the time. She pulls fur, makes a nest, and is really mean to her cage mate. Rabbits also run around with hay or straw in their mouths. Be careful with dryer lint. It could cause respiratory problems because of all the dust.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> If the Doe hasn't started pulling fur by the 28th day, pull some from her yourself.



_Never_, _EVER_ do this.  All you will achieve is upsetting and possibly injuring the doe. The vast majority of the hundreds of does that I have handled in the 30 or so years that I have had rabbits do not pull fur until the day they kindle. I  might see a mouthful or two a day or two before they are due, but if I see a box with a lot of fur in it, I expect to find babies under the fur. Rabbits may go to town ripping fur from themselves, but if you ever watch one trying to pull fur off of another, there can be no doubt that it is traumatic for the one having the fur pulled. The last thing you want to do to an about-to-kindle doe is upset her; she might even miscarry from the stress (and though babies sometimes get born on day 28, if the litter wasn't on schedule to be born then, they will be effectively premature, and may not make it as a result). It should go without saying that a traumatized doe doesn't usually make a good mother . . .


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

From Storeys Guide to Raising Rabbits by Bob Bennett - "You can help her[the doe] out, if she doesn't cover her babies well with fur, by plucking some from her yourself and covering the young." The author of this book has raised rabbits for decades, and knows his stuff. I have also met countless raisers who have saved many litters by plucking fur from the doe early.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

Rabbits are not as easily traumatized as you or others may think. Mine have had their cages tipped over by a bear, and they are fine, with no problems. They play with my dog, no problems. There are little kids running around all over my house, and I have never lost a litter because of that. More often, what happens is that owners are so scared of "traumatizing" the dam that they do not intervene or help when they should.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 10, 2016)

Just because Bob Bennett mentioned it doesn't mean he does it. He probably talks about doing forced breeding, too, but that doesn't mean he does it on a regular basis. Even if he does try it, that doesn't mean he's any more successful than anyone else. If you dig up some of the older ARBA publications, you will see very respected rabbit experts talking about wry neck and identifying it as an inner ear infection; I can think of a few other issues that are 'old knowledge' that are looked at a bit differently these days.

Rabbit 'experts' are just as bad as the rest of us about repeating things that they have heard or read, without ever testing the validity of something that "everybody knows." Sometimes when someone actually does test it, the results are not what they expected at all.

Plucking loose fur from a rabbit that is actively shedding is not the same as pulling it out of one that isn't. Most of the people who try it get an awful lot of scratches and only a little bit of hair - and maybe a rabbit that runs and hides in the back of the cage when they come near her.

How easily are rabbits traumatized? Well, that kinda depends on the rabbit, and the circumstances. I have learned to speak before walking into my rabbitry, because just walking in the door without speaking first results in rabbits hitting the walls. If they hear me coming, they don't even bother to get up. I have seen rabbits jumping in terror when a glass lizard crawled across the floor several feet away. I have had occasional rabbits that were found huddled against walls and in corners with broken necks, that apparently startled so badly they killed themselves, and the odd rabbit that was fine in the morning and turned up with a broken back later in the day that I have to assume had a foot through the wire and jumped up and pulled when something unexpected happened near them. I can remember nailing shingles on the roof of my rabbitry, and feeling the whole structure shaking from panicking rabbits bouncing around when a piece of tar paper got caught by the wind. I have seen rabbits duck down, wide-eyed, when someone rode past the rabbitry on a go-cart or lawn mower. And though several rabbits survived without injury when a goat butted their cage to knock their food out where she could get it, it was clear that they didn't enjoy the experience. When you are a small herbivore, stress is_ everywhere._

Rabbit does can be very tolerant - I regularly take litters in the house  overnight during cool weather, and may even bring expecting does in if they are due during a cold snap. But the only doe I have ever had that I know savaged her live, healthy kits did so after I moved her and her litter; something she didn't do when left in her own cage. And the one doe that abandoned a litter after she had been caring for it did so after I messed about with her and her kits a lot, more than I usually do (and I do a lot of handling and checking). Most does put up with a lot, but not all will, and one can't assume that a doe will blow off anything until she has a track record of doing so.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

I have pulled fur, and know many raisers who have. It works magnificently, especially with does who have been known not to pull fur. I don't know about other people's rabbits, but my rabbits and the rabbits of people I know can be plucked very easily. You said so yourself that plucking does not hurt rabbits on a post about Angoras. If done incorrectly, it will hurt the rabbit, but if done correctly, you could save a litter by plucking fur from the dam.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

You must have really nervous rabbits. Maybe mine are just used to it. They live right next to where we chop our firewood and do our hutch building, so hear table saws, circular saws, wood splitters, etc., and sleep right through it. The most freaked out mine have gotten was when they were tipped over by a bear. Thankfully, they live in better hutches now. What size rabbits do you have? I have heard that smaller rabbits are more nervous, at least to some degree.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 11, 2016)

Depending on the breed, my rabbits weigh between 1 1/2 and 10 1/2 pounds.

"Nervous" is the natural state of an herbivore, particularly a small one. A wild rabbit inevitably winds up getting eaten, those who are good at running and hiding and/or are just plain lucky live long enough to make a few litters before it happens. Domestication has only somewhat dulled their senses; instinct lurks just beneath the unnaturally colored and shaped surfaces of our pet rabbits. When frightened, a rabbit has two instinctive reactions; first, to hunker down and hope to go unnoticed, and if that doesn't work, they sprint for cover. Rabbits have explosive acceleration but no staying power; a wild rabbit is never very far from a bolt hole. If the rabbit doesn't have room to run, he is more likely to sit tight. That is the reason why the carriers we take rabbits to shows in are so small - if the rabbit can't go anywhere, he will just huddle in place. And with only enough room to stretch out, if the rabbit does try to run, he can't get up enough speed to kill himself before he hits the far side of the carrier. If your rabbits have any kind of cover, when presented with loud noises or sudden movements, they probably respond to their most basic instinct to sit tight and weather the storm rather than to run.


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## promiseacres (Oct 11, 2016)

Have to agree with Bunnylady. I collected some extra fur after a false but would never pluck them. Mine have rex fur so it would be difficult. I also would suggest not allowing bucks and does together, live litters have a better chance if you know your due dates.


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## Bossroo (Oct 11, 2016)

After raising rabbits into the thousands of all breeds and sizes starting as pets then later  commercial ,  I agree 100% with Bunnylady. Bob Bennett  and others like him , well let it be said   not so much.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 11, 2016)

Mini Rex, or lust plain Rex, fur shouldn't be plucked, considering that it is so short you could harm the rabbit in the process. Plucking works for some people, but not for others. I have saved whole litters by plucking the for myself, and so have many people I know. Some rabbits are more nervous than others. For example, my Dutch react worse to a sudden noise or movement than my New Zealands.


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## Genipher (Oct 14, 2016)

promiseacres said:


> Have to agree with Bunnylady. I collected some extra fur after a false but would never pluck them. Mine have rex fur so it would be difficult. I also would suggest not allowing bucks and does together, live litters have a better chance if you know your due dates.



You know, I was wondering about that. I've heard of colony situations (I like the idea of it but don't have the set-up) but, even then, I've read that bucks and does are kept apart.

I have an extra cage...I should probably move our buck out of the doe's space before she kindles, eh? Has anyone here kept their bucks and does together without problems?


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 14, 2016)

Bucks have been known to "kill" litters(what actually happens is that because rabbits are ready to breed almost immediately after giving birth, the buck chases the doe like mad, resulting in the kits beibg trampled. I have heard of cases where the buck did actually kill the kits, but the first is more likely to happen. But either way, it would be better to avoid all problems and remove the buck before kindling time.


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## Genipher (Oct 26, 2016)

UPDATE: Well I missed the window. I went out this past Sunday to discover our Netherland doe had kindled. Honestly, I thought she had another week.
Buuut...the buck was totally staying away from the kits and both adults were both calm.
Anywho, as soon as I discovered the kits I moved Mr. Buck to his own cage. She seems a little lonely now that he's moved out but other than that, everything is going great with dad, mom, and kits.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 26, 2016)

Great!!


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## TAH (Oct 26, 2016)

YAY...


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