# Breeding Up?



## MysticScorpio82 (Nov 27, 2010)

Ok I have a question (well 2 actually  ):

If I were to buy un-registered does, is it possible to breed up to registered bucks and be able to register the kids to the ADGA?  

If not - How many generations does it take for a kid to be registerable? 

Thank you in advance for any information and pointing me in the right direction!


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## chandasue (Nov 27, 2010)

I don't really have an answer but found this  on the ADGA website.


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## Roll farms (Nov 27, 2010)

As long as the buck is registered, you can register his offspring as 'recorded grade' (50% would be the first generation), and the % would go up from there, ea. time they were bred back to a registered buck.

Per the ADGA guidebook (available at their site)

D. GENERAL RULES FOR RECORDATION OF
GRADE DAIRY GOATS OR REGISTRATION OF
AMERICAN BREEDS
1. Where one parent is a registered animal, the doe
offspring may be recorded as 1/2 American of that
breed, provided she conforms to that breed standard.
If such offspring is then mated to a registered buck of
that same breed, the resulting doe offspring may be
recorded as 3/4 of that breed, providing she conforms
to that breed standard. These 3/4 does when mated to
a registered buck of the same breed will produce kids
that are 7/8 of that breed and does of this group are
eligible for entry into the American section of the
register, provided they meet that breed standard.


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## MysticScorpio82 (Nov 27, 2010)

Thank you guys so much!  I have always heard it is better to spend the money on a good buck rather than registered, top quality does when first starting a herd, and then just breed up, but I had NO CLUE how it worked!  I am still new to goats (outside of pet sitting my aunt's spayed alpine goat over the course of 10 years - so different than actually owning!)


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## helmstead (Nov 27, 2010)

EXCEPT for Nigerian Dwarves...there are no recorded grades for them.


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## ksalvagno (Nov 27, 2010)

What you may want to consider is figuring out what sells in your area. Then either get unregistered or registered. The time and effort may not be worth having registered animals if unregistered is what sells in your area. By the same token, if everyone buys registered animals, then there is no sense buying unregistered unless you just want it for personal milk or something.


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## MysticScorpio82 (Nov 27, 2010)

@ Helmstead:

Why don't they do grading for ND?  How does it work for ND if the doe is unregistered and the buck is?  Must I wait a few generations til they are at 100% before I can reg them?


@Ksalvagno

How would I figure out what does and doesn't sell in my area (for kids)?  

I want to get just couple does for milk.  The milk will be for my family to drink and for me to make soap.  I don't care about the pedigree for my own does, as long as they produce well, are healthy, are good mothers, and they have nice udders, etc.  

My concern is for the kids - I honestly don't want to have a huge herd and keep ALL my kids, so I want them to be marketable and also I would like to see them go to good homes.

The other reason for my "breed up" question is this -

I have toyed with the idea of doing shows and such in the future; after I have had my goats for a while.  I don't want to jump right into the goat world getting show goat, and having no idea what I am doing.  

This is why mutt goats or unregistered goats would be ideal to start with, but then (if I still have the interst) start upgrading my herd to show quality.  

I know, I know...the naive dreams of a newbie


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## helmstead (Nov 27, 2010)

Nigerians just cannot be bred to unregistered animals and bred up.  If you breed a registered buck to an unregistered doe, all you will get are unregisterable kids.  There is no "American" book for them.  They're either purebred or grade.

You will find more info about this on the ADGA website.

BTW I started with a grade herd of Pygmies...moved on to grade Nigerians...learned my tough lessons with them and moved on to show quality Nigerians.  Nothing wrong with starting small - as a matter of a fact, I feel it's wise and often suggest it to my clients (which is why I still have a small grade herd).


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## lilhill (Nov 28, 2010)

AND, as far as Nigerians are concerned, if you purchase NDGA registered buck and does, they are not recognized by ADGA nor AGS.  So if you're wanting ADGA registered animals, then their parents must also be ADGA or AGS registered.  I learned that the hard way ... purchased NDGA registered when I first started.


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## ChksontheRun (Nov 28, 2010)

We got a small grade herd (from a woman who had a family emergency) as our first goats this year.  I hate to say it, but they were not expensive and I figured if we were going to kill goats with our ignorance of raising them, I would rather have that happen to less expensive grade animals.  We learned to milk, immunize, feed, and we will get these through their first winter and kidding.  Next spring we have some registered animals on order and will go up from here.  We may get rid of our grade animals or breed up.  But either way, we have learned a ton from our wonderful herd now before spending the money on more expensive animals.  (Mini nubian by the way)  I think this is the way to go.  You have to learn somehow.


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## ksalvagno (Nov 28, 2010)

If you want to try and find out what sells in your area, then look at Craigslist ads. Also contact 4-H and see what can be shown. I watch Craigslist ads and keep tabs on certain ads. If they keep appearing over and over, then the person is having a hard time selling their stuff, if you only see it for one time, then they are probably selling the item. Also notice what people generally have. If the majority of the people who have goats, have unregistered or registered, then you are getting your answer.

I have an unregistered Alpine. I'm not even sure she is a full blood Alpine. I love her. She is an incredible milker. I also have my ADGA/AGS registered Nigerian Dwarfs. Registered goats sell best in my area but there are those that do want unregistered. It takes some time to figure it out but you can do it.

It is great that you are trying to figure out what is best for you. Only you can figure that out. I actually started with show quality registered Nigerians because there is a higher demand for show quality registered goats. Goat showing is very big in this area. Even though I'm not interested in showing, I wanted a product that would sell. I also have alpacas and wanted a goat that I could get some milk from if I have an orphan cria to feed or something so that was why I got the unregistered Alpine. I do drink the milk and it is wonderful. There are also more and more people wanting to be self sufficient in my area so I think I will be able to sell the unregistered goat's offspring to someone looking only to have a goat or two for personal milk.


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## MysticScorpio82 (Nov 28, 2010)

ChksontheRun said:
			
		

> We got a small grade herd (from a woman who had a family emergency) as our first goats this year. * I hate to say it, but they were not expensive and I figured if we were going to kill goats with our ignorance of raising them, I would rather have that happen to less expensive grade animals. * We learned to milk, immunize, feed, and we will get these through their first winter and kidding.  Next spring we have some registered animals on order and will go up from here.  We may get rid of our grade animals or breed up.  But either way, we have learned a ton from our wonderful herd now before spending the money on more expensive animals.  (Mini nubian by the way)  I think this is the way to go.  You have to learn somehow.


That was my thoughts too! 

I know on craigslist and in the Uncle Henry _(it is like a book of ads, similar to craigslist but it only comes out once a week and they started doing this before internet was around)_ there are alot of Nigerian Dwarves for sale, but not as many of the other breeds.  I am not sure if that means the market is so saturated that they aren't selling or if it means there is that much demand for the cuties. Now I have a better idea of how to tell (thank you Karen!) so I will be paying better attention.

I have a family of 4; 2 of which are very small children (4 years and 1 year) so I don't think I need a ton of milk to meet my family's needs (until my children get older anyway) plus I only have about 1 acre to work with (the rest of the land has gardens, playset, etc) which is another reason I was leaning towards a small breed. 

 I will have to double check to make sure nothing has changed, but the last I read it is OK to sell raw milk in maine from your farm if the people bring their own containers and you have proper warnings  .  One of my fear is getting overwhelmed by milk and letting it go to waste, which is why I was afraid of a larger breed.  Of course I do want to make soap which will use up some excess...

And Again I was thinking of starting off with inexpensive, unregistered does to begin with and to learn from. Then *if *I wanted to get into showing or let my daughter show in the 4-h, I would need better quality goats and I would rather have the option of breeding up and improving my herd, than using the unregistered goats then selling them once I learned and buying new goats...I tend to become attachted to my pets


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## savingdogs (Nov 28, 2010)

I bought some "mutt" quasi mini-nubians as our first goats and we love them. We are raising some "grade" kids this spring and hoping that we get some females! We are going to sell the males only most likely and increase our little herd with them. I crossed them back to a nigerian dwarf to keep them small for our enclosure.

We do not like the idea of selling the males for meat, so we hope to sell them as brush clearers. We have not sold the male offspring yet, so I'd have to tell you later how that goes, but so far we are really enjoying this experience and having goats. 

I may "breed up" in the future as well.


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## Roll farms (Nov 28, 2010)

We've found that the "something for everyone" approach works for us....we have some "cheap" goats, some purebred / registered, and some in between (grade / %), in several breeds and types.

That way I can satisfy people who want a backyard milker, brush eater, 4-H, etc.

I've always felt that the overall health / productivity of an animal is way more important than what it's papers say.

BUT...there are some buyers who *think* papers = 'good'...and I like to take their money, too.


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