# Is there something going around in her herd? Please Help!



## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 4, 2011)

Hello,
I am wanting to find out for my aunt what's going on with her herd of goats. 

Tuesday, March 22nd 
At 2:00pm a 1 1/2 year old goat ( Alvin ) was laying flat out on his side. He had his neck arched back, almost touching his back. He would/could not get up, by 5:00pm he had died.

Tuesday, March 29th 
She ( Sparkles ) was 2 1/2 months old, she also layed flat out on her side as well. Within 3 hours she was dead. 

Monday, April 4th
She ( Frosting ) had the runs and was given medication. She gave her Red Cell minerals for horses and Cydectin. She than layed fat on her side and died within the hour. She was always small never grew to be any bigger than a 3-4 month old kid, and she was a year and 4 months

Is this all connected? What could be causing it? 

Thank You for your help.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 4, 2011)

How long has she had goats?  Do you know how often she does fecal tests or worming?  

I am thinking it is all related.  My guess would be a very heavy worm load, brought on by the warming weather and spring pasture.


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 4, 2011)

She has had goats for 3 1/2 years now. She did fecal testing 6-8 months ago thru the vet. She worms them as needed. She has always had a really hard time with worms, she is in Florida.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 4, 2011)

I think the worm load has just gotten away from her. 


Do you know if she puts out goat minerals for them, this can really help with worm loads, wont cure it but can help.  

Also, making sure goats are getting plenty of copper can also help with worm load from the loose salts and possibly copper supplements. 


the 3 1/2 month old that hasn't been doing well, was probably stunted by coccidiosis, this is a parasite but is treated for 5 days with a coccidiosis medicine like Corid or Albon or sulfa-dimethoxine, This should be being picked up in the fecal test, but is the number one killer of a kid under a couple months of age, and can ruin a surviving kids stomach causing them to be stunted.


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks! She does put mineral blocks out for them. I forgot to put in that Frosting was a year and 4 months but never grew. She always had trouble eating as well. I will tell her. 

Thanks!


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## Roll farms (Apr 4, 2011)

Sounds like tetanus or goat polio or listeriosis to me.

(Possibly also complicated by worms and / or cocci).

Does she vaccinate w/ CD&T vaccine at least yearly to prevent tetanus?
Thiamine def. causes goat polio.
Moldy feed causes listeriosis.

The 'neck arched, almost touching his back' is def. a sign of something bad.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 4, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Sounds like tetanus or goat polio or listeriosis to me.
> 
> (Possibly also complicated by worms and / or cocci).
> 
> ...


Tetanus was my first thought as well.


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 4, 2011)

She does not vaccinate them, I keep trying to get her to. She really loves these goats. Each one has a name, all 40 of them  The food is kept inside and she puts out food every night for them to eat but they eat it all by morning.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 4, 2011)

Rolls:  Can you have an entire herd just come down with tetnus?  I thought it was more a secondary condition from an accident, or castrating, ectt....


Listoriosis had crossed my mind. 


I think based on the no vaccinating, just putting feed out at night and gone by the morning,  she is dealing with more than one problem. 

A goat should have free choice hay or pasture all day and night, from what you are saying they only are fed at night and then have nothing all day long. No pature or hay during the day?


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 4, 2011)

They have 40 acres of land to roam on and have three ponds on the property. They also have two waterers out for them. They come in at night where it is covered and thats where she feeds them goat feed.


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## Roll farms (Apr 4, 2011)

I wouldn't think an entire herd could come down w/ it at once, no...
But these guys are roaming, could be getting cut / hurt and that stuff (tetanus) lives in the dirt...She's in FL, maybe  the temps are 'helping' whatever it is to breed....

3 out of 40 isn't an entire herd, and I've never seen worms / cocci cause a stiff neck.



IMHO, she needs to vaccinate the entire herd w/ CDT then boost in 3 wks.  
Treat anyone younger than a year for cocci.  
Deworm and then recheck (fecal / FAMACHA) in 3 wks and do it again if needed.
Offer them good hay instead of feed...only supplement any lactating does / milkers / thin goats w/ feed as needed.
Maybe the waterers need cleaned more often...?

With that much browse, they may well be getting plenty to eat...but I'd still offer some hay instead of feed unless they're underconditioned.

A vet needs to do a necropsy on one of the dead ones to see / verify what pathogen caused the problem...if it happens again, I would suggest it.

Online diagnosis isn't a real definite thing.  

It sounds MOST like tetanus to me but could be a myriad other things and / or be complicated by other things.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 4, 2011)

AllaBoutpetsitting said:
			
		

> They have 40 acres of land to roam on and have three ponds on the property. They also have two waterers out for them. They come in at night where it is covered and thats where she feeds them goat feed.


That makes sense.   It sounds like she is doing a quit a bit for them, goat feed every night, fecals run every 6 months.

Other than the tetanus like Roll suggested, what about a poisoning from vegetation? 

My other thought is do the ponds that have a lot of fresh water running in them or can they sit kind of stale(spelling)/stagnant.  We have part of our pasture with a low spot that can fill up with rain water and get kind of stale and we have had problems with coccidiosis out breaks on that part of the pasture.   

But the twisting of the head does sound like tetnus.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 5, 2011)

That sure sounds like goat polio.  Is there any chance that any of the following fit with her situation?

Is she feeding silage? Or did she recently switch their feed completely?  Is she using new hay or feed that could be moldy?
Did she recently switch to a feed with a lot more molasses content?
Did she recently treat the goats for lice or mites with a sulfur based treatment?
Did she recently treat them for cocci?

Where I'm going with this is that treatments or feed that contain a good deal of sulfur or mold, will in turn greatly decrease or even stop the production of thiamin in the rumen.  This then causes the goat polio.

So sorry she is dealing with whatever this is.  I hope she is able to figure it out soon.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 5, 2011)

Am I understanding it correctly that 2 of the goats never really reached their full size?  As in they were stunted?  If so, that sure sounds like cocci could be at least part of the equation.  I think someone already said that, but I'm tired and being lazy and not going back through all the posts.

Please let us know if yall figure out what the problem(s) was/were.

Sending positive thoughts her way!


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 5, 2011)

Okay,
I got to talk to her and ask her the questions you guys asked. She is feeding them the goat feed because she can't separate the mothers from the rest of the herd. She gives them medicated pellet feed, and sweet feed mixed in. She gives them the sweet feed only in the winter. She treated everyone for cocci last summer, and usually does it every summer once a year. Yes both Sparkles and Frosting where small, and sparkles always had a hard time eating. She said that they had the goats get into the cracked corn they keep for the ducks. She is worried that might of killed them. She said when they found Alvin he was whining and when they found him dead he had foam coming out of his mouth and was bloated. She has not treated the goats lately for lice or mite. She has not switched hay or feed but the sweet corn was changed as she had someone else pick it up for her and it was a different brand. 


Any Ideas? 
Thanks again everyone


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 5, 2011)

Sounds like bloat then.  Does the rest of the herd seem ok at this point?  If the two that died were bloated and foaming that's likely the case.  And if the others were going to have it they would have already, was it just the two that got into the feed?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 5, 2011)

Alvin was the first one to pass, and then over a two week time, two more goats , That seems too far apart to be bloat from getting out one time. 


 I am leaning towards goat Polio, I haven't seen it myself, but after reading the comments on the forum and doing some research  
I think it is a strong possibility.

Her is a good article on the polio and listeriosis: 

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html


You said she was only feed grain at night and not feeding any kind of hay, Do you feel the 40 acres has been offering the goats enough pasture/forage over winter months? I am not familiar with Florida and I am not sure what you would expect from pasture in the winter. 

I also think, she needs to be less scheduled with her worming and cocci treatment and check the herd every month or two and determine if a fecal test warrants being done.

Also CD & T is a pretty important vaccination, and she isn't helping herself any by not giving it.  

Roll gave a list of things she suggested to do. And I second her list.


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 5, 2011)

It was just Alvin that bloated. She does give them hay in the winter as most of everything dies. I did talk her into vaccinating them  I have been nagging her and now that this is going on it has convinced her that she needs to. 

Thanks Everyone


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## elevan (Apr 5, 2011)

AllaBoutpetsitting said:
			
		

> Okay,
> I got to talk to her and ask her the questions you guys asked. She is feeding them the goat feed because she can't separate the mothers from the rest of the herd. She gives them medicated pellet feed, and sweet feed mixed in. She gives them the sweet feed only in the winter. *She treated everyone for cocci last summer, and usually does it every summer once a year.* Yes both Sparkles and Frosting where small, and sparkles always had a hard time eating. She said that they had the goats get into the cracked corn they keep for the ducks. She is worried that might of killed them. She said when they found Alvin he was whining and when they found him dead he had foam coming out of his mouth and was bloated. She has not treated the goats lately for lice or mite. She has not switched hay or feed but the sweet corn was changed as she had someone else pick it up for her and it was a different brand.
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe it's different for different regions...but I thought the worst time for cocci was in the spring (not summer).  So maybe she missed the boat and they got cocci and it played a minor role in the whole thing?

idk - I'm hoping someone else can clear that up...


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 5, 2011)

Can cracked Corn kill goats? She was told by some one that because they got into the corn it has caused her problems and this is why they died.


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## elevan (Apr 5, 2011)

AllaBoutpetsitting said:
			
		

> Can cracked Corn kill goats? She was told by some one that because they got into the corn it has caused her problems and this is why they died.


Too much can cause bloat...which can indeed kill if not treated...

but that doesn't explain everything here...


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## Roll farms (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm still thinking the 1st one was tetanus (the only goats I've ever seen w/ their necks nearly touching their backs were infected w/ tetanus).
They also bloated.
One was mine, one belonged to a 4-H kid...both survived, but it was caught early, and they were given boatloads of antitoxin and pen g, and supportive therapy.

The next two could have been goat polio (Thiamine Deficiency).
Coccidia feeds off of the B vitamin goats need....I've never had a case of thiamine def., but theoretically, if the cocci caused their thiamine to be 'off' then I could see Goat Polio being a result.

Also, I wonder if she used Corid to treat them for coccidiosis....It's a thiamine inhibitor....which, again...goats need....it kills the cocci by limiting the B vitamin in the goat.  I prefer not to use Corid for that reason, but if I HAD to, I'd supplement them after treatment w/ added B vit.

I'd be hittin them suckers ALL w/ CDT vaccine and a BIG old fortified B shot...5 cc for itty bitty kids, 10 cc for 6 mos old or so, and 15 cc per adult.

I'd maybe even give them BoSe if she hasn't been already.

And I treat for cocci ALL SUMMER LONG.  Once it's in the ground, they can get it again, treating once is almost doing nothing... and they can 'live' but not thrive.

Teach her to check eyelids...pull the bottom eyelid down...if they're not at least a healthy shade of pink, consider deworming w/ a GOOD dewormer.

I hope she gets them on the right track....good luck.


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## AllaBoutpetsitting (Apr 7, 2011)

Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back, we have been taking working in the yard since it has been so nice out. 

She uses Salmet for cocci, she was wanting to know what you use to treat cocci. 
I am going to just put the questions down as she sent them.

Do they worm monthly? What do they use for wormer? What all does the CDT shot prevent? Do you give it yearly or just one shot for life? Also My one doe just had a kid about a week ago and is not putting weight back on, should I be worried?


Thanks


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## Roll farms (Apr 7, 2011)

AllaBoutpetsitting said:
			
		

> Sorry it has taken so long for me to get back, we have been taking working in the yard since it has been so nice out.
> 
> She uses Salmet for cocci, she was wanting to know what you use to treat cocci.
> I am going to just put the questions down as she sent them.
> ...


For cocci prevention, I use DiMethox 40% injectable...1cc per 5# day 1, then 1cc per 10# days 2-5, and I do that every 21 days during warm weather.  
For treatment (if they actually have it) I treat for 7 days instead of 5 days.
Extremely severe cases, I've treated for 21 days straight in the past.

I worm only as needed.  I check eyelids every 2 wks in summer, every mo. in winter.  If their eyelids are pale, I deworm.  I recheck in 2 wks.  If they're still pale, I'll have a fecal ran to see what the problem is.
I use Valbazen at 1cc per 40# 3 days in a row for tapeworm and barberpole worm.  Valbazen shouldn't be given to pregnant goats.
I use safeguard liquid goat dewomer if they're preggo...at 3x the label dose, for tapeworms.  Ivermectin if they need it for barberpole / stomach worms.

CDT prevents Tetanus and Enterotoxemia (Overeating disease).  Both are killer diseases.

Check the doe's eyelids...if they're pale, she probably has a high worm load.  
Increase her grain if she's not wormy.  A doe producing milk has a harder time gaining weight than a dry doe.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 8, 2011)

Roll: Do you use safegaurd 3 days in a row, also?    
Because I thought it was safegaurd, NOT valbazene 3days in a row?

Or both?


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## Roll farms (Apr 8, 2011)

Tapeworms, period, I treat for 3 days in a row, be it in dogs, cats, or goats.


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