# Sick doe..vet and I stumped



## Tapsmom (Nov 15, 2018)

I have a 7 year old ND Doe. She has been "off" for quite a few months.  After numerous vet visits, bloodwork and a mineral panel we still have no answers.  Everything came back normal.  I also had a fecal done and it came back with some parasites.  
It started in August.  At the 4H fair she seemed unhappy and refused to eat any grain..but would nibble hay.  She seemed to perk back up by the end of the weekend and return to normal.  At the end of September, we went to the Big E and once we got there she appeared hunched and uncomfortable and once again started refusing grain.  By a few days after we got home she had  a snotty nose.  We treated her with Biomycyn and that cleared up..but nothing else.  After the second vet visit we tried giving her Mylanta for 5 days.  It seemed to help a little.   But not enough.  Next vet visit we pulled bloodwork and started on B12 shots.  We dropped off a fecal and treated her with Prohibit since it showed parasites and we had some coughing and wanted to make sure lungworms were not involved. Still no improvement.  A mineral panel was sent out as well.  It showed a little high in Selenium and a little low in Zince but everything else was normal.but I had given her some replamin not long before. The vet and I also discussed possible liver flukes so she also had me treat her with Valbazen.
She is definitely depressed and hunched.  She does not have a fever. If we offer her food, she is very interested..but will nose around as though she is looking for something.  Sometimes she will gobble a little down..but then usually not take a second bite.  She will eat hay..but is  being very selective.  She is losing weight because of this and is getting cold very easily.  We have been blanketing her when it is cold until we can figure out what is going on!  Does anyone have any thoughts?


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 15, 2018)

Is she anemic? Does she chew cud? How does her rumin sound? I’d be giving probiotics.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 15, 2018)

What type of hay is she on? Pics? 
What type of feed are you giving her? 

Will she eat beet pulp shreds?


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## Tapsmom (Nov 15, 2018)

I have been giving her Probios.  Her Ruman is functioning fine.  I am actually going to try some beet pulp shreds tonight.  I had been feeding the goats second cut hay, but she was preferring the first cut that the horses were getting. But I ran out of the first yesterday and am getting some more today.  I also picked up some straight alfalfa to see if she would eat that (a small bag for small animals for her to try) which she did.  She was getting Kalmbach Meat and Dairy but we have tried pretty much everything else. ( Sentinel LS(horse), Dynasty Pro(horse), Kalmbach Gameplan 18 (goat), hay stretcher, alfalfa pellets, Calf Manna) I don't have a problem if she prefers to just eat hay.  She is dried up so only needs hay..but she is losing weight since she is not eating much.  I will get some pics when I get home and post them.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 15, 2018)

I would try a lower quality hay. Sounds like everything is too rich. When they get thrown off metabolically and start losing weight etc more often they are declining feed after one bite because it is too rich. Often happens with rich hay as well.
Being in Connecticut you don't have any leaves you can feed right now... so look for low quality hay. Peet pulp is good, you may try it wet - a warm meal so to speak. 
Continue probios.


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## greybeard (Nov 15, 2018)

Her rumen may be functioning, but other digestive  problems can still exist.
Was an xray or ultrasound done?
Is there a chance she may have at some point, ingested a bit of hardware..glass, plastic or metal?


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## Tapsmom (Nov 15, 2018)

Someone else had mentioned Xray or ultrasound as well. I did get both the first cut hay and the beets pulp tonight. I had also been giving her some Nutridrench to get calories in her. Should I stop that do you think?  I have spent quite a bit on vet bills  so far and unfortunately I am still paying those off. But I have a call in to the vet to ask about Xrays, too. 
At dinner time she was very happy with the 1st cut hay.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 15, 2018)

1st cut hay generally has less protein. I suspect your doe is having metabolic issues and perhaps that is why she is preferring the 1st cut.
By any chance is she still in milk? You can look at her numbers and gain a great deal of info in regard to MUN levels and Fat : Protein ratios.
Fatrotein inversion  can cause so many issues. 
Some signs... weight loss, reluctant to eat the normal feed such as dairy goat feed, high quality hay etc.

I am familiar with Fat : Protein inversion  I have a Nubian that last year tanked. Perfectly healthy, kidded... 3 weeks later she started to plummet. No milk fever, no parasites, everything good on bloodwork. What we didn't have was the milk data info but I had read an article and it kept coming to me that this may be her issue. She lost 60# in a month time. Wouldn't eat anything... except the worst hay and maybe some leaves. She was pretty much on deaths door... we ended up drying her off and working with her. Long story short she ended up gaining all the weight back in 2 months.
Of course when she first started losing weight we tried doing what would seem "normal", give more quality feed. She would take a bite then nothing.... her body knew she couldn't do this. 

We dealt with it like Fat: Protein inversion yet we had no official diagnosis for it.

Skip forward- This year our does were on milktest. We had 3 goats that had the Fat: Protein inversion! We had to really adjust their diet to reduce the protein and we used the data from the MUN levels to also adjust the feed. Our suspicion from last year was correct ... each doe that showed Fatrotein inversion numbers were losing weight.  We ended up switching to a horse feed, lower in protein. The interesting thing is we didn't feed an excessively high protein feed. BTW  it was a particular "line" of our goats either. It was a nubian, a lamancha. and a dwarf! 

I do believe what Greybeard suggested is important to look at.  A friend of mine had a goat die, not from hardware but because the goat ate string and ended up getting impacted.


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## Tapsmom (Nov 16, 2018)

She is drinking, pooping and peeing normally. She is still picking through the first cutting hay. I offered her both wet and dry beet pulp shreds this morning and she was not overly interested.
Southern by choice, How did you get the weight back on her?  I am offereing her the first cut hay.  I also left a bowl of the dry and wet beet pulp with her.  She did head over and chew on her salt block and take some minerals then took a long drink as well.  But are there other food that you were able to get her to eat?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 16, 2018)

I went back and re read your post.

I see the time line as far as the shows.
Do you remember the timeline for the rest...

Dates of parasite treatments? Last follow up? Eggs Per Gram Counts? 
When was the mineral analysis done? 
What is her current FAMACHA?


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## Tapsmom (Nov 18, 2018)

The mineral panel just came back last week.  Her Famacha looks good.  I just came back in and took her temp.  It is 101.0.  I am dropping another fecal off tomorrow and am trying to get another visit in.  She is hunched and uncomfortable, but seems to want to eat..just can't find what she wants.  The vet did not test for Johne's so, although that stresses me out, I am going to ask her if she thinks that is a possibility.  We have had this does since she was 4 weeks old.  We also have a closed herd.  She is one of our original 4.  We have treated her with Prohibit and levamosile.  We are trying to cover the possibility of Lungworm and Liver Fluke since neither of those show up well on fecals.  
I am also going to pick up some Chaffehay tomorrow to try that as well. She has seemed to like the straight alfalfa and the first cut hay.  And-thanks to my daughter-thinks she can come in the house anytime she wants, now..


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## Tapsmom (Nov 19, 2018)




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## Tapsmom (Nov 19, 2018)

This was our girl this morning. I have also noticed a chipped tooth and very bad breath.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 19, 2018)

I would definitely get a radiograph done.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 19, 2018)

greybeard said:


> Is there a chance she may have at some point, ingested a bit of hardware..glass, plastic or metal?


At this point - this may bear serious investigation.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 19, 2018)

Really sorry you are having to go through this, i am hoping for a happy outcome for you and your girl


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## Tapsmom (Nov 19, 2018)

We had a woman out tonight who does acupressure and massage.  And she made a huge difference in her stance, demeanor and appetite.  She LOVED the Chaffhay.  I just hope it continues.  We have an appointment with our vet again in the morning.  She is going to take a look and make sure there is nothing else going on with her teeth as well.  And we are going to brainstorm an see what other options she suggests/  I have also taken quite a few ticks off of her as well,


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## Southern by choice (Nov 19, 2018)

Be very careful with the chaffhaye. 
We lost 2 bucks and nearly lost two does to a bad lot. We shared the lot with another farm. All their animals got sick, not as bad as ours, but still sick. The two does did recover however the one has permanent damage to her viili.  The goats loved it, I loved it but not worth the risk. Many vets are hesitant about feeding haylage of any kind to goats. It was fresh and stored properly no signs of anything wrong, no smell... nothing. 

Do you think she has had an injury? Possible disc issue or something? The hunched appearance is really odd. The fact her bloodwork came up fine is also interesting and no fever.

I hope you keep updating this thread this is very interesting and quite perplexing.  I am sorry for your girl and you. So trying.  I hope you get some results soon.


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## greybeard (Nov 19, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> A friend of mine had a goat die, not from hardware but because the goat ate string and ended up getting impacted.


I saw a bit of blue hay string hanging out a cow's mouth one day and I pulled it out thinking it may have been hung up in her teeth.  It was about 6 ft long when I got it all out......she almost had it all swallowed. It didnt smell good atall.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2018)

Has her urine been checked?


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## Tapsmom (Nov 20, 2018)

Hmm not urine.  I can ask when I pick her up.  The vet just called.  Her teeth are fine and she also did an Xray of her skull since she has a constant nose discharge (albeit clear). She suggested hitting her with Nuflor today and tomorrow and her final dose of Valbezin.  In case there is an infection deep in that she can't find. She said the only additional option at this point is exploratory surgery or the Ultrasound at Tufts-but I am afraid that may be out of the financial picture.
However, she looks WAY better this morning after last night's visit from the acupressurist.  Hardly hunched at all, much more alert and hungry.  (Quite mad that she couldn't eat this morning)


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## sfgwife (Nov 21, 2018)

Tapsmom said:


> We had a woman out tonight who does acupressure and massage.  And she made a huge difference in her stance, demeanor and appetite.  She LOVED the Chaffhay.  I just hope it continues.  We have an appointment with our vet again in the morning.  She is going to take a look and make sure there is nothing else going on with her teeth as well.  And we are going to brainstorm an see what other options she suggests/  I have also taken quite a few ticks off of her as well,




I am glad i kept readin! I was gonna ask if her teeth had been checked really good and floated. Thinkin that maybe she had somethin goin on withher mouth to make her not be eatin. Ticks..... isnt it menengal worm they can get from ticks?


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## Tapsmom (Dec 4, 2018)

I just got back after being away on business all last week. She is not eating as well.again..and is hunched again. I am at my wits (and wallets) end. She will happily eat fruits..but I don't know if just feeding her produce is the best option. She seems to hunch up after eating..


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## Southern by choice (Dec 4, 2018)

If she is at a stage of failure to thrive you may want to consider putting her down and having the state vet do a necropsy.


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## greybeard (Dec 4, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> If she is at a stage of failure to thrive you may want to consider putting her down and having the state vet do a necropsy.


As discouraging as that sounds, it may be time. 1st reported here at BYH on Nov 15 and 19 days later it seems to be getting worse as the hunching up definitely indicates pain and discomfort. I would sure discuss with the vet about continuing to try only as long as there seems to be a positive outlook in the very near future, but it is your call.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 5, 2018)

Thanks.  I am putting another call in to the vet in the morning to see what she thinks. The vet did not think it was terminal..and there is definitely improvement. She has gained weight and is still in much better shape then she was on Nov 15th.  My children are telling me I am overreacting and I spoke to our boarder and her daughter and she commented that she comes running when she hears her plastic bag filled with fresh produce.  But, should she get to the point where there is no hope..I will make that choice.  She is going to the bathroom fine and both her urine and pellets are normal.  We are keeping her blanketed under 30 degrees and a heat lamp is near her when it is near the teens. I will keep everyone posted and unfortunately I do realize that may be my end solution.  I am just not quite ready to give up and I don't think she is either.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 8, 2018)

Ok I am trying to upload a picture of our troublemaker..but I cannot figure it out lol. We had the acupressure and naturopath here yesterday for her. She said she looks way better than when she first saw her. And I spoke to the vet yesterday and we resumed Probios and Vitamin B shots. She has been eating. I just get so paranoid with her. I am guessing my kids are right in that I am overreacting. I just wish we knew what was going on with her.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 8, 2018)




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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 8, 2018)

She might be cold, causing some of the hunching. I do agree that something else is going on though. She doesn’t look to have much coat. Was she clipped this fall?


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## Tapsmom (Dec 8, 2018)

Yes she was clipped for the Big E. The show was the last weekend in Sept. The rest of the goats that went have grown most of their winter coats.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 8, 2018)

Grabbing at straws here --

Ulcers?   With horses when they refuse grain, eat grass & hay, show pain symptoms, etc., often ulcers.   Often they are iffy with food some days, some days not; no fevers, drinking ok, etc.  A  horse will sit like a dog sometimes when ulcered, also.  Her symptoms brought back some memories so I mention it.  

Did the Nutri drench help?  Any changes with that?  SBC did yours need glucose to pull her out of her issues?  Were her insulin levels ok?  I ask because of metabolic imbalances....insulin resistance, etc., as a possible reason.   She's eating fruit & veggie?  (natural sugars, vit/min)  That & "crappy" (course, weed, etc)  hay may work.  I know we want to use meds on when necessary but, sounds like she's had her share of all of them. Maybe slack off?

So much easier when they get a cut and we can SEE what is wrong! 


Recently clipped, certainly may be cold! I'd keep her blanketed and see if it helps.  I hunch up when I'm cold  

Sorry to see you & her have to go thru this.  Hoping for improvement.  Following for updates.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 8, 2018)

Waiting on the outcome also...hope its a good one


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## Tapsmom (Dec 9, 2018)

Mini horses Straws are fine lol.  I am looking for any suggestions.  I even put a call in to Tufts and they quoted me $ 1000 to diagnose her.  So I am afraid that is out of my price range, especially after what has already been spent.  My wonderful vet has been letting me make payments on my balance.  Actually Ulcers are one of the 3 thoughts that I had.  We have actually not been medicating her in a while.  We did resume Probios and Vitamin B shots a few days ago, but that is it.  She is currently being fed fresh fruit and veggies(specifically Kale, mesclun mix, carrots and pears). Chaffhaye and first cut hay.
Has anyone had experience with treating ulcers in goats? And she started limping as well s she is going back to our vet again tomorrow. 
Thank you all for being so supportive and helpful.  This has been very stressful.  She is such a lovely doe and as long as she is happy and trying I will do so, too.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 9, 2018)

Kudos  to you for being such a good goat mom., its really hard to make that decision on when to let them go ....  or if you keep on trying to find the answers. .. money is always a consideration as the vet bills add up. I really feel for you and your doe, hope answeres come soon your a great goat momma


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## HomesteaderWife (Dec 11, 2018)

Please do keep us updated, and prayers for your little goat friend. I just got into reading this thread, and though I don't have goats, I like to learn more about animal health as much as I can. The medical mystery has me curious and I do want to know what is causing all this. I am so glad your veterinarian is working with you as you responsibly care for this doe


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## Tapsmom (Dec 11, 2018)

We took her in last night and  her blood panel came back that he white count has doubled, and her calcium and protein has gone down.  The last ditch effort is try and find somewhere to have an ultrasound done to confirm that there is nothing else we can do.  Unless someone has any other suggestions. I am heartbroken.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 11, 2018)

I don't  know what to say , other than you have done your very best .....and have given her love


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## Mini Horses (Dec 11, 2018)

I am so sorry.  There are times when we cannot resolve the problems.  Always a hard time and way to go but, reality.  It will always be so as long as there is life and animals.     But we cannot let that stop us from loving them and having them.  You are not at fault. You have given her love abundant, best care to be given.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2018)

Oh Tapsmom, I have been following and truly am heartbroken with you. When you do all you can and have that support and still no answers it is just so painful.  
As daunting as this has been for you I want you to know how much I appreciate all of your posts and sharing this journey. I believe our experiences always help others, always. 
All the hours of worry, all the hours of care, the many consults, the time just spent hoping and being with your girl may not change the outcome but you will know, and she will know you have been a wonderful shepherd and will continue to be til the end.  
The kind of owner I would want my goat to have. She is so blessed to have you.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 11, 2018)




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## Tapsmom (Dec 11, 2018)

Thank you everyone. The ultrasound will be our last ditch effort. And if I find, as I fear, that it is untreatable. We will spoil her rotten until she tells us it is time. She is very alert and actually wags her tail if you bring her a tasty treat. She is having difficulty getting up..but once she takes a few steps..is quite happy to mosey around looking for treats.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 11, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Oh Tapsmom, I have been following and truly am heartbroken with you. When you do all you can and have that support and still no answers it is just so painful.
> As daunting as this has been for you I want you to know how much I appreciate all of your posts and sharing this journey. I believe our experiences always help others, always.
> All the hours of worry, all the hours of care, the many consults, the time just spent hoping and being with your girl may not change the outcome but you will know, and she will know you have been a wonderful shepherd and will continue to be til the end.
> The kind of owner I would want my goat to have. She is so blessed to have you.


X2!

It's so hard to admit that we can't fix them all... You should rest assured that you have done as much as you can for her.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 11, 2018)

A friend of mine also tossed out one other thing we have not checked for..Lyme disease.  I know it is a longshot..but I figure it can't hurt to check.  
I used to have a dog that had chronic Lyme...and it was brought on by trauma.  She had an injury to her paw and as we treated that infection, the Lyme tooks it's chance and emerged.  From that year on she had a flare up, like clockwork, every March until she passed away at 17 1/2.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2018)

Tapsmom said:


> A friend of mine also tossed out one other thing we have not checked for..Lyme disease.  I know it is a longshot..but I figure it can't hurt to check.
> I used to have a dog that had chronic Lyme...and it was brought on by trauma.  She had an injury to her paw and as we treated that infection, the Lyme tooks it's chance and emerged.  From that year on she had a flare up, like clockwork, every March until she passed away at 17 1/2.


There are so many tick borne illnesses now affecting livestock and humans but difficult to actually test for.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 16, 2018)

The results after our "last ditch effort" are still inconclusive.  However, we have a more concrete game plan.  This vet tossed out a few different options and did end by commenting that she does remind her of a cow with Ketosis.  Which is funny, because on researching symptoms, they do fit ketosis.  But based on what I read, she does not fit the profile of goats that actually get it.  She alo mentioned that she has seen quite  few goats around here with gastric issues with the unusually wet and strange weather we had this Fall or possibly some type of toxicity. (She is one of the two idiots in our herd that we have to keep an eye on and that will head for the Azaleas)  And of course the last option is Cancer.  My vet had not send over the most recent blood test results, so I have to remind them to do so on Monday.  But the high white count was a concern, so she hit her with another shot of a heavy duty antibiotic.
She wants us to increase the Vitamin B shot to 6 ml daily, plus 5 ml of Probios and 20 cc of Nutridrench.  We need to get calories in her. She suggested soaking the alfalfa cubes into a slurry.  But our "Princess" did not like that and prefers to eat them broken in to small pieces.  We are still trying to get her to eat and she is still being picky.  Do you guys have any ideas on foods that goats simply cannot resist?  
The vet said she does not look like a dying goat..at least at this point in time.  So we are continuing the fight and least until we either win or lose.   And as always I am open to suggestions or thoughts.  And I will continue to keep everyone updated. At this point she needs help to get all the way up and stand.  But once she is up she is perfectly capable of walking around and stepping up, over and through everything.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 16, 2018)

On a side note. I am giving her the 6 ml Vitamin B shot with an 18 guage needle..that I do not have many of. Can I use the same needle more than once? I have always tossed them after one use..but I am running out. It would be the same medication in the same goat. 
Secondly, I have always rubbed the bump for CD & T, but that seems to be counterproductive with the Vitamin B. It seems to come out. So I am guessing that I should just let the bump of Vitamn B dissipate on it's own, correct?


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## Rammy (Dec 16, 2018)

My Mom says not to reuse the needle. She was a lab tech for 30+ years. She said you could risk contamination because the needle is no longer sterile. Considering how sick your fur baby is, its not worth the risk. Reusing the needle could introduce bacteria.


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## Rammy (Dec 17, 2018)

Just to give you a better idea of how dangerous reusing needles can be....
A friend of mine had this beautiful arab horse. The vet came to give it shots and exam at the farm she was boarding at. He reused a needle and syringe he had used to give cows blackleg, I believe. Horse had a reaction and died. She found out at some point the vet had reused a needle and syringe. I dont know if she sued or not.


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## Tapsmom (Dec 17, 2018)

I did reuse last night's needle.  But I sterilized it with hot water.  And we wash the syringe itself out immediately after use. I will not reuse them again.  It did make me nervous.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 17, 2018)

Go on line to jeffers, you can order them and get them quickly , if you can't  get to store to get some...good luck with the baby hope she gets better


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## Tapsmom (Dec 20, 2018)

We may have an answer!!!!
The second vet I took her to reviewed everything that my vet had done. And her observation is that there is some type of deep seated infection. She gave her a pretty strong antibiotic so she re recommended putting her on a week of Baytril shots to hopefully knock out the infection. Then pull a CBC again. She stated that her white count was high, but not all of the types of white blood cell counts were high. (I think I am explaining it properly). So she does not think it is Cancer, but a bad infection. And our CL test came back negative.  Actually extremely negative lol. (In a good way)


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 20, 2018)

How are her kidneys?


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## Tapsmom (Dec 20, 2018)

All her bodily functions came back as normal


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 20, 2018)

Here s to great health for her, hope this new vet nailed the problem and she recovers!


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## Amelie the Bee Keeper (Dec 20, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Here s to great health for her, hope this new vet nailed the problem and she recovers!


X2 I hope so too!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 20, 2018)




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## HomesteaderWife (Dec 21, 2018)

Oh man, best wishes!  Keep us posted


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## Tapsmom (Dec 28, 2018)

View attachment 56487 Just an update..we had started her on 5 ml Probios, 6ml injection of Vitamin B and 20 ml of Nutridrench. After a few days her appetite returned with a vengeance. I stopped the Vitamin B and she was still eating ok. I don't know if I mentioned it, but she also needed help to stand up...but now she is getting up on her own.
However, we started her on the I injectable Baytril  we have one more dose left tomorrow. And her appetite is waning again. However, I am not totally freaked out yet, since I actually thought this might happen while we were hitting her with a heavy duty antibiotic.
I am resuming the Vitamin B shots. She is so thin that she doesn't have much loose skin so I feel mean giving her shots.
She has become quite the Diva, though. If you open her stall, she pushes right by you since she figures we are letting her out to browse the yard..or rifle through the hay in the barn. She has free choice hay, but apparently it tastes better in the barn aisle lol.
I am cautiously optimistic that we are making progress..but still would like to know where the infection actually resided..


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## Tapsmom (Dec 28, 2018)

Camilla the troublemaker would like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas.


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## Tapsmom (Jan 7, 2019)

I am afraid it looks like we are losing the battle.  Her temp was dropping over the weekend and we were able to get it back up to 101 and get her eating.  But it was back down to 97.5 this morning.  I fear everything is shutting down.  I am leaving work to get home before the kids in case I am right.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 7, 2019)

so sorry


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 7, 2019)

Sorry to hear


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## Rammy (Jan 7, 2019)

So sorry.


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## Tapsmom (Jan 7, 2019)

I got home before the kids and headed out to the barn.  Her temperature had risen..but only to 98. I agreed I would not make any decisions without discussing it with the kids.  So we decided to make her a pen in the basement, because even with the 2 heat lamps and an enclosed stall..and 2 blankets..it is a little warmer in the basement. She is currently settled in our basement, with both children doing their homework by her side. .. her temp just hit 99.8 and she has been eating since we settled her in there..including trying to steal the kids chips!  However, she is still very weak.  Every time I think it is time to throw in the towel..she surprises us and rallies again.  She is a fighter!!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 7, 2019)




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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 7, 2019)




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## Tapsmom (Jan 8, 2019)

The last 2 mornings she has seemed like she wasn't going to make it through the day.  I give her her 6 ml shot of Vitamin B, 5 ml Probios and 20 ml of Nutridrench.  By the time the kids got home yesterday and today..she had her head up and was looking around for them.  And she was eating hay.  The kids are insisting she is looking for something.  But she is still weak.  Any thoughts?  Her temp keeps dropping and staying in the upper 90s.  I am thinking we are nearing the end.  But she is still perky and trying to eat and does not appear to be in pain.  The vet had also called in Prednisone for me to try as well.  I am wondering if I should go pick that up as one more last ditch effort.


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## Tapsmom (Jan 8, 2019)

This was yesterday after we moved her into the basement and she had been eating for a few hours.  The bottom photo is how she was acting for the few hours before her nap with her "mom"


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## Tapsmom (Jan 9, 2019)

We lost Camilla this morning. She is eating buckets of banana peels with the Angel's now. We are taking her for a necropsy to see if we can find out what was going on.


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 9, 2019)




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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 9, 2019)

very sorry  for your family


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## Mini Horses (Jan 9, 2019)

Gallant efforts were made to keep her here.  Hoping the necropsy can give answers.  So sorry for the loss.  We are all saddened with you and your family


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2019)

So very sorry for your loss.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 9, 2019)

So sorry...


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## Rammy (Jan 9, 2019)

So sorry to hear. You did everthing you could for her.


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## greybeard (Jan 9, 2019)

Tapsmom said:


> We are taking her for a necropsy to see if we can find out what was going on.


Hopefully you will find some answers, but do be prepared to find the necropsy results  'inconclusive' ...as they often are. 
Hate that you lost her.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 9, 2019)

You went above and beyond and did everything you could. I am so sorry you lost her.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm sorry... you certainly tried to help her. It's hard, not knowing what caused it. I hope you get some answers.


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## Tapsmom (Jan 10, 2019)

The preliminary results already came over.  But they are "greek": to me.  I am waiting to hear back from my vet for clarification.  I think it is telling me she had an impaction in her Abomasum..but I am not sure it clarifies what it was.. It is written in very medical terminology.
This was their leading line:
"
MORPHOLOGIC DIAGNOSIS:
ABOMASUM: severe impaction
RUMEN: severe tympany with frothy ruminal contents
SMALL INTESTINE: segmental transmural thinning and abnormal liquid contents
BODY AS WHOLE: 1) thin body condition; 2) moderate anemia; 3) serous atrophy of fat
ABDOMINAL CAVITY: moderate sanguineous peritoneal effusion
COMMENTS:
The most significant findings on gross examination of this goat were ruminal tympany and
abomasal impaction. No physical cause for pyloric stenosis was observed. "

Can anyone translate? And now I am wondering if I did everything I could have.  Should I have tried a 3rd vet?  How could this have been found and could it have been fixed?  My daughter is devastated and is it my fault?


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## Rammy (Jan 10, 2019)

I showed one of the vets here this post and he said it sounds like the impaction caused the bloat and the atrophy of fat ment the goat was living off her fat reserves because her body was unable to absorb any nutrients due to the obstruction and thinned intestinal tract.
As far as saving her is hard to say. If you had xrays done and nothing showed its hard to say the vet would have felt there was an obstruction. This could also have been a recurring problem with the obstruction. Im sorry you lost her. You did everything you could. Its not your fault.


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## Tapsmom (Jan 10, 2019)

Thank you Rammy.  I have been second guessing myself again since yesterday morning.


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## Rammy (Jan 10, 2019)

Dont do that. You went above and beyond doing everything you could. I know how you feel. Trust me. Ive BTDT many times. You gave her more time than anyone else would have and as good of quality of life as possible. She was one lucky girl.


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## greybeard (Jan 10, 2019)

Tapsmom said:


> The preliminary results already came over.  But they are "greek": to me.  I am waiting to hear back from my vet for clarification.  I think it is telling me she had an impaction in her Abomasum..but I am not sure it clarifies what it was.. It is written in very medical terminology.
> This was their leading line:
> Can anyone translate?


I will give it a shot, with my words underlined just to make it easy to read, but will preface it with this. I very much doubt you did anything wrong, and I very much believe the vet did all he/she could do as well. They, like us, are just human, and when you get up into the ruminants and above mammals, we are all very very complex biological life forms.


> "
> MORPHOLOGIC DIAGNOSIS:
> ABOMASUM: severe impaction...


It was overly full of partially digested foodstuff...this  usually means it was full of pelleted feed but not always, it can be impacted with undigested  forage. (more on that later)



> RUMEN: severe tympany with frothy ruminal contents


 that means a gas filled rumen..bloat. The word tympany is used to describe the drum like sound a Dr or vet would listen for when trying to determine whether an organ or cavity is filled with air, liquid or solids.



> SMALL INTESTINE: segmental transmural thinning and abnormal liquid contents


 The walls of the small intestine were thinner than they should be. Transmural in this context usually means the thinning is across the entire small intestine, but she apparently means it was found only in segments of the organ.



> BODY AS WHOLE: 1) thin body condition; 2) moderate anemia; 3) serous atrophy of fat


Absence or degraded fat..the fat has broken down into a semi liquid (serum) state. she didn't give a location so I would assume 'everywhere'. Not a surprising find at all considering the condition of the digestive system. Fat atrophy in humans, other mammals,  and livestock is almost always nutritionally caused but that doesn't mean under-fed. Plenty to eat but other problems caused the nutrition not to be able to be utilized.



> ABDOMINAL CAVITY: moderate sanguinous peritoneal effusion


 Sanguinous means bloody/full of blood/or allowing blood to pass, tho in some instances, it can also mean allowing any other fluid to pass. In this case, I suspect the vet meant there was blood present in the abdominal cavity...not a huge amount, not trace amounts, but in between..moderate amounts. Peritoneal effusion means a presence of fluid in the peritoneum (membrane surrounding the abdominal cavity) where there shouldn't be but a trace amount. A trace amount, because there is always some fluid there, a very thin but viscous fluid that lubricates to keep organs from chafing as they are moving around. IOW, I believe the vet means there was moderate volumes of blood that had found it's way into the abdominal cavity


> COMMENTS:
> The most significant findings on gross examination of this goat were ruminal tympany


 gas in the rumen..bloat 


> and abomasal impaction.


 covered that but I'll post a picture of what is commonly found in the impacted organ


> No physical cause for pyloric stenosis was observed. "


This is a little puzzling but may be illuminating as well. One word at a time. "Stenosis' usually means narrowing or even closed. Pyloric refers to a sphincter type muscle that is between the abomasum and the small intestine. Most mammals have one and in humans that little muscle can cause absolute misery if it doesn't open correctly or if it stays open and doesn't seal off. If it doesn't close off, it can allow intestinal gases and very strong digestive fluids back up into the stomach, or in this case, the abomasum.  Kid goats (and calves) don't have a fully developed pyloric sphincter at birth, or even the part that is between the abomasum and the small intestine...the duodenum.  Those begin to fully develop within a few weeks of birth as the younguns don't need them while only on milk. 
In older calves and grown bovines, a leaking pyloric sphincter can cause gas pressure from the large and small intestines to back up thru the doudenum and into the pyloric sphincter. This in itself, can prevent material in the abomasum from traveling on out into the small intestine and a blockage can begin in the abomasum. Inversely, IF the pyloric sphincter opening is congenitally  too small or doesn't open, again, the abomasum is blocked.

Now, the vet didn't actually say the pyloric opening was too small. She/he just stated there was no observed CAUSE for it. From that, I infer (so shoot me) that there WAS stenosis, but the cause of the stenosis wasn't apparent.


I relabeled the aforementioned parts because this image isn't very clear:


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 10, 2019)

Nice explanation @greybeard , well done


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## Tapsmom (Jan 10, 2019)

Thank you everyone. Grey beard that was VERY helpful. I just spoke to my vet a little while ago and she translated for me as well. Her take was that it was a neurological cause. I.e for some reason the "pyhyloric spincter" was not allowing food to move to and from her abomasum. This resulted in the blockage and everything else snowballed. Thus there was absolutely nothing any of us could have done to prevent ..or heal her. She said she has never seen it in a goat but it can occur in cows. Even with an ultrasound it would probably not have been discovered. The blockage may have been found, but since the blockage was a result and not the cause of her problems, it would probably not have helped. 
Now that we have some results, she is going to further research it for me. 
I do apologize if I am not explaining this clearly.


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## greybeard (Jan 11, 2019)

Tapsmom said:


> Her take was that it was a neurological cause. I.e for some reason the "pyhyloric spincter" was not allowing food to move to and from her abomasum. This resulted in the blockage and everything else snowballed. Thus there was absolutely nothing any of us could have done to prevent ..or heal her. She said she has never seen it in a goat but it can occur in cows. Even with an ultrasound it would probably not have been discovered. The blockage may have been found, but since the blockage was a result and not the cause of her problems, it would probably not have helped.


Neurological anomaly could certainly be the cause, as relaxing of the pyloric sphincter is controlled via pathways of the abdominal ganglia. There is also a hormone called Cholecystokinin (CCK) that is responsible for keeping the sphincter muscle contracted. The bottom line is, there could be dozens of reasons why the muscle doesn't relax.

It can sometimes be corrected and usually is in humans, by surgery. They go in, and cut a small incision in part of the lining around that muscle, which allows the muscle to relax as it bulges out the incision. (similar to what happens when a hernia occurs)

[an aside that we might want to keep in mind]
It's sometimes called HPS which stands for Hypertrophic Pyloric Stenisis.
Its happens just by chance most of the time but there is also a lot of evidence in most mammals, that problems with thickening of this muscle can also be genetic..an inherited trait.
In humans, enough research has been done to know what the risk factors are.
_
*Epidemiology & Demographics*

•
Incidence 2 to 4 cases per 1000 live births.

•
4:1 male‐to‐female predominance.

•
More than 90% of cases are sporadic.

•
Between 7% and 10% of cases are familial.

○
A mother who had HPS as an infant transmits the risk of developing HPS to her offspring (19% for boys and 7% for girls).

○
A father who had HPS as an infant transmits a lower risk of developing HPS to his offspring (5% for boys and 2.5% for girls).

○
Siblings of patients with HPS are 15 times more likely to have HPS than children without any affected siblings. First‐born males are not necessarily more frequently afflicted than other siblings._

And I think that's all I care to speak...already gone way beyond my paygrade...


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## Tapsmom (Jan 11, 2019)

Thank you so much Greybeard! I was as concerned about the possibility of it being genetic. We have 2 of her daughters, her son and her twin brother.  This situation has really stunk, but as long as we can learn from it, all is not lost. 
You have all been wonderful and your support means more than you know. 
I actually did ask my vet about a possible genetic link so I am glad you brought that up. Your knowledge is amazing!


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## greybeard (Jan 11, 2019)

Tapsmom said:


> Thank you so much Greybeard! I was as concerned about the possibility of it being genetic. We have 2 of her daughters, her son and her twin brother.  This situation has really stunk, but as long as we can learn from it, all is not lost.
> You have all been wonderful and your support means more than you know.
> I actually did ask my vet about a possible genetic link so I am glad you brought that up. Your knowledge is amazing!


Perhaps it's knowledge now........yesterday, it was mostly just research. I do a LOT of reading, but I don't consider anything knowledge until it is used.
And, on one board or another, I had read previously, of a member that had problems with the pyloric sphincter so I knew how it worked in humans. I've been blessed/cursed with a very good memory and an insatiable curiosity.


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## HomesteaderWife (Jan 13, 2019)

I am so sorry to hear your sweet goat lost her battle. Prayers for you and your family losing her, but I give you so SO much credit for doing all you could to improve her condition and learn what was wrong.


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## Tapsmom (Jan 14, 2019)

Thank you very much.  There is a big hole in our herd at the moment.  She was quite the presence!  But we do have her brother and a few of her offspring.


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