# Fermenting feed...



## Nao57 (Nov 7, 2020)

So someone told me you can ferment chicken laying mash and not only whole grains in the seed form. 

Can anyone confirm this? 

Most of the articles I saw it looked like it was only the full seed version. 

But I'd like to know if it can be done with normal laying mash also (for poultry)?

Thanks.


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## Kusanar (Nov 7, 2020)

Yes, you can. There are entire massive threads about this over on Backyard Chickens if you want to pop over there for more info or details.


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## Baymule (Nov 7, 2020)

I ferment the feed for the Cornish Cross I raise for meat. I start it with cultured buttermilk. I keep several buckets going with lids. When I feed a bucket, I always leave a little in the bucket to start the next batch.


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## Nao57 (Nov 8, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I ferment the feed for the Cornish Cross I raise for meat. I start it with cultured buttermilk. I keep several buckets going with lids. When I feed a bucket, I always leave a little in the bucket to start the next batch.



Do you have to worry about mold or stuff going bad? (And how do you prevent this?) 

I'm only asking this because I'd had so much trouble with BOSS.


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## Beekissed (Nov 8, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> So someone told me you can ferment chicken laying mash and not only whole grains in the seed form.
> 
> Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> ...











						Fermented Feed FAQ
					

Bear with me, because this will likely be looonnnngggg. :D So, I’m still using. I’ve also been involved with a FB community for chicken folk. What? Don’t look at me like that. You…




					tikktok.wordpress.com
				




Been doing it for years now~layer mash and other grains~ and wouldn't go back to dry feeding if someone paid me.  Saves  me scads of money, makes the meat and eggs taste better and production and health increase.


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## Nao57 (Nov 8, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Fermented Feed FAQ
> 
> 
> Bear with me, because this will likely be looonnnngggg. :D So, I’m still using. I’ve also been involved with a FB community for chicken folk. What? Don’t look at me like that. You…
> ...


Thank you very much. 

I'm curious how much you safe once you get it efficient?


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## Beekissed (Nov 8, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> I'm curious how much you safe once you get it efficient?



Someone did the numbers on it years ago on BYC and it came to almost half the feed they used to feed when fed dry.   They were quite meticulous in their records, measuring all their feed and keeping records of all expenses, so I figure they got it right.


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## Nao57 (Nov 8, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Someone did the numbers on it years ago on BYC and it came to almost half the feed they used to feed when fed dry.   They were quite meticulous in their records, measuring all their feed and keeping records of all expenses, so I figure they got it right.


That's fun! That's what I'm looking for! 

Especially its hard when I go to the grocery store and seeing everything going up in prices all the time.


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## Beekissed (Nov 8, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> That's fun! That's what I'm looking for!
> 
> Especially its hard when I go to the grocery store and seeing everything going up in prices all the time.



To me, frugality is a fun game to practice....it also comes in real handy when it's needed the most and you have been doing it all along, so it's no shock to the system.


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## Nao57 (Nov 8, 2020)

Does fermenting the feed and getting the gains from it still work OK, when its cold outside? 

(And/Or would you have to ferment the feed inside?)


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## Beekissed (Nov 8, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> Does fermenting the feed and getting the gains from it still work OK, when its cold outside?
> 
> (And/Or would you have to ferment the feed inside?)



I put mine in my mud room porch for the winter....it stays pretty cool in there but it still manages to ferment.  Usually will still ferment around 50* and upwards.


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## Nao57 (Nov 12, 2020)

So when I look at the guides its saying you strain the water out before giving it to the animals. But its almost day 3 and its become so soupy that when I try to measure it out to give to the animals I have no idea how much I'm giving because its so hard to separate water from the feed anymore. 

Any suggestions on this part?

(I tried strainer a bit. But its still like a crap shoot, in telling if I'm giving enough.)


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## Beekissed (Nov 13, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> So when I look at the guides its saying you strain the water out before giving it to the animals. But its almost day 3 and its become so soupy that when I try to measure it out to give to the animals I have no idea how much I'm giving because its so hard to separate water from the feed anymore.
> 
> Any suggestions on this part?
> 
> (I tried strainer a bit. But its still like a crap shoot, in telling if I'm giving enough.)



Yeah....you don't actually have to strain the water out of it to feed if you get your measuring down right.   I use layer mash~not pellets or crumbles~so my mix is one gal of dry feed to 2 gal of water, which gives me an end result like thick mortar consistency.    Whatever you are feeding, you'll have to play with your water amounts until you get the end result that you desire so you won't have to deal with soupy feed. 

Now, fermenting whole grains is a little more difficult, as they don't absorb as well as a cut grain will and take a bit longer to ferment, which requires you keep them pretty wet while doing so.  When I first started out I had a two bucket system wherein the top bucket had tons of little holes, like a strainer, and I could just lift it out of the bottom bucket a bit(had a rope on the handle that clipped to the coop roof to keep it hanging)to strain out the liquids for a bit before dishing it out.   That proved too fussy for me and I sooned learned to just mix the feed with less water and use a single bucket system. 

Here's a vid from when I had a two bucket system I was feeding out to meat birds, but it pretty much shows how my feed looks right now while just using a one bucket, no straining method....just using less overall water to mix with the feed.  And I also found since then that it doesn't require much stirring up at all...just initially to mix the feed with the water, but after that, I don't stir it...I just scrape down the sides of the bucket now and again as I feed it out and it gets stirred up a bit naturally when I scoop through it to feed.


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## Nao57 (Nov 19, 2020)

If chickens need 4 ounces of food, and ducks need 6 ounces each per day. 

Then... are you counting the water as part of that weight or taking the water as less than whole part of the measurement in calculating this? 

Sorry, I'm working out the kinks and wanted to ask this. 

I did want to report that so far your comments and help have made this possible. And it seems to be working. I am deeply appreciative. 

Now I'm just trying to work out the kinks on how to calculate the measurements when a 1:1 or more weight has 50% water in it? What do you think?


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## Beekissed (Nov 19, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> If chickens need 4 ounces of food, and ducks need 6 ounces each per day.
> 
> Then... are you counting the water as part of that weight or taking the water as less than whole part of the measurement in calculating this?
> 
> ...



I don't measure food given to chickens or ducks, as their needs change seasonally and sometimes even due to weather changes.  I just feed once per day and notice how much is left over or if the trough looks like its been licked clean...then I adjust the next day's feeding accordingly.   

I have found, though, that it seems as if I feed the same bulk amounts dry as I do wet and fermented in most cases, so if I fed 3/4 gal of feed dry and that satisfied their needs, it seems the same 3/4 gal wet feed did the same, though there is about half the actual feed grains in the wet portion than there is in the dry portion due to the addition of the water within the grains causing swelling of the feed.  

So, in the end, go ahead and feed them the same amounts you did when you were feeding dry feed and see how it all turns out....same amount as in wt/cups/scoops, etc.


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## Nao57 (Nov 20, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> I don't measure food given to chickens or ducks, as their needs change seasonally and sometimes even due to weather changes.  I just feed once per day and notice how much is left over or if the trough looks like its been licked clean...then I adjust the next day's feeding accordingly.
> 
> I have found, though, that it seems as if I feed the same bulk amounts dry as I do wet and fermented in most cases, so if I fed 3/4 gal of feed dry and that satisfied their needs, it seems the same 3/4 gal wet feed did the same, though there is about half the actual feed grains in the wet portion than there is in the dry portion due to the addition of the water within the grains causing swelling of the feed.
> 
> So, in the end, go ahead and feed them the same amounts you did when you were feeding dry feed and see how it all turns out....same amount as in wt/cups/scoops, etc.



Thanks very much. 

It truly takes a lot of skills and applied thinking in agricultural sciences. Interesting!


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## Nao57 (Nov 20, 2020)

OK, new question popped up about fermented feed. 

Let's say you have a group of ducks on one side; group A. And you have a group of ducks on the right side, group B. Now let's say they are all ducklings and you are all raising them this way. Now let's say you feed one group ONLY dry feed, and the other group ONLY wet feed. (Then time passes while continuing this way.)

I'm a bit curious if you think the ones on the fermented wet feed would mature faster than the others, and also lay faster than the others? (And I ask this since people say they get more health benefits from the fermented stuff...so if that's true then...) 

Anyway curious what you think.


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## Beekissed (Nov 20, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> OK, new question popped up about fermented feed.
> 
> Let's say you have a group of ducks on one side; group A. And you have a group of ducks on the right side, group B. Now let's say they are all ducklings and you are all raising them this way. Now let's say you feed one group ONLY dry feed, and the other group ONLY wet feed. (Then time passes while continuing this way.)
> 
> ...



Sexual maturity and laying traits are genetic and they will likely mature and lay when their genetics for those traits kick in and not so much due to differences in nutrition.  

When they say they get more health benefits from the FF, they mean more probiotics for better gut health, better immune system and better parasite resistance, then also more readily available nutrition that can be utilized more quickly than regular grain based feed which requires more energy to digest and even then doesn't digest fully in a monogastric animal.  The fermentation process predigests the grains, making them require less energy for the animal to digest them and makes them more readily available to the animal on a cellular level.  

Better health benefits won't make a breed or strain of poultry mature more quickly and reproduce earlier than other breeds....that's purely genetics.


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## Kusanar (Nov 20, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> OK, new question popped up about fermented feed.
> 
> Let's say you have a group of ducks on one side; group A. And you have a group of ducks on the right side, group B. Now let's say they are all ducklings and you are all raising them this way. Now let's say you feed one group ONLY dry feed, and the other group ONLY wet feed. (Then time passes while continuing this way.)
> 
> ...


Like Bee said, they may GROW faster and maybe even get larger as an adult than the others but they will still age the same rate and so hit sexual maturity the same time (roughly, they are animals and do have variations naturally). 

Would be an interesting experiment to do. Maybe with 2 tractors of CX or something similar where you could expect them to be very similar birds genetically. Keep all factors exactly the same with the 2 groups, feed the exact same number of scoops of feed to both batches but feed 1 group dry feed and the other fermented feed (same feed for both, just 1 straight from the bag). Then keep track daily of how the birds acted (were they moving? sitting at the feeders?) and then make notes of weights and general health condition when they get to butcher age. I would guess that the FF birds would have more muscle, less fat, probably be a touch taller and heavier but maybe look a little thinner (due to muscle weighing more than fat) and be more active than the ones on the dry feed.


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## Nao57 (Nov 22, 2020)

Well a new question popped up.

Haha.

Amazing how so many things can come up.

If you do 3 buckets of feed fermenting with each day being a bucket and cycling them, then it would generally mean 1 bucket is a morning feed and an evening feed if you are feeding 2x a day.

So when I lug the buckets out to feed in the evening, I thought, hey I wonder if there would be any problem in leaving that bucket outside to have everything ready in the morning (which is cold), and to make it faster to do the morning feeding.

Is there any problem in doing this, with leaving the fermented bucket outside over night in winter? Or would it weaken the process somehow? (So to be clear, half this bucket got used for dinner. And then to save time, I thought I can leave it there and then just dump it in the morning, and then refill, and reset the bucket cycle.)


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## Beekissed (Nov 22, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> Well a new question popped up.
> 
> Haha.
> 
> ...



Sure, you can do that.   But, here's an idea....why not just feed it out once a day and let them eat on it all day long?  That way you don't have to do an evening feeding at all.  Same feed, same amounts, just not split into specific times of the day.


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## Nao57 (Nov 22, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Sure, you can do that.   But, here's an idea....why not just feed it out once a day and let them eat on it all day long?  That way you don't have to do an evening feeding at all.  Same feed, same amounts, just not split into specific times of the day.



If you do once a day feedings,...

Won't they make more noise later in the day, from not spacing their food out through the day?

I am trying to figure out how viable your idea is, but not cast any doubt on it.

Will animals make more noise during the day in a once a day feed setup or a twice a day feed setup?

Do most people do once a day setups, if they don't have any young poultry/ducks?

(My ducks used to be very young, for one group of them. But they aren't in the duckling stage, anymore so I think it is possible to switch things around. They are now about 3 months old. I probably wouldn't have dared do this when they were very young.) 

(I also have rabbits. Will that work for them also? But I am also trying to breed the rabbits soon. Not yet, but soon. Will once a day feedings work w those? If it doesn't I suppose I could feed the ducks once a day and the rabbits twice...)

I'm a bit worried about how it will affect their noise level most of all, since I'm doing all this in an urban backyard.

I would like to discuss your response in detail, or look into the study on it.

Thank you for your help and suggestion.


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## Baymule (Nov 22, 2020)

Rabbits can be fed once a day, no fermented feed for rabbits. Overfeed a doe and she will get too much internal fat and won't get pregnant.


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## Beekissed (Nov 22, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> I'm a bit worried about how it will affect their noise level most of all, since I'm doing all this in an urban backyard.



I have no experience with penned flocks in urban settings, so not sure about how much noise they would make, but my free range flocks only seemed to make noise around feeding time, ducks included.   So, if noise is the issue, I'd say once a day feedings would be ideal.  

Agree with what Bay says....a tuna can full of feed a day is enough for a large meat breed rabbit to keep them optimal for health and breeding.   Rabbits do well with once a day feedings, as they are nibblers.  Once the feed is gone they tend to nibble the hay and mine had continuous hay.


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## Finnie (Nov 24, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> and then just dump it in the morning, and then refill, and reset the bucket cycle.)


It’s worth mentioning, for fermented feed, you will not want to dump the whole bucket and start over each time. You will want to leave a small amount of the already fermented feed in the bucket as a starter, and then add new feed and water to that.
When I was doing FF, I had a one bucket system. Once the fermenting process was going, I would feed out what I needed (mornings only ) and leave about 2-3 inches of fermented feed in the bucket. Then I would add the amount of new feed and water that I would be using the next day and stir it real well. By the next morning, it was nice and bubbly. 

To be sure, the more birds you are feeding, the more likely it won’t all fit in one bucket. When I needed two buckets, then I alternated them, which allowed them to get a longer ferment time, too. But never feed out the entire bucket. As long as you keep some starter, you can keep adding more feed and water daily (or every other day), and you can keep this going indefinitely.


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## Finnie (Nov 24, 2020)

One more thing, about you question on leaving it outside overnight. Your profile doesn’t have your location, so I don’t know what kind of climate you are in. But if the nights are cold, then the fermenting process will be slowed down. I think any temp below 40F will be the same as putting your starter in a fridge, so even though it will still grow, it will be a much slower rate. And if it freezes, no growth at all.
In fact, it would be a bit difficult to feed it out if it’s frozen. I don’t doubt that birds can peck bits off of frozen food, but it’s probably best not to let it freeze.


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## Baymule (Nov 24, 2020)

When I raise Cornish Cross meat chickens, I keep 4-5 three gallon buckets going at a time.


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## Nao57 (Nov 25, 2020)

It kind of sounds like a lot of you go through a lot of feed each month? 

Is that the case?

How much feed do most people use in a month?


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## Baymule (Nov 25, 2020)

I haven't done all the math on my Cornish, or anything else this year. All the receipts are thrown into the drop front secretary desk. I shudder every time I open it to stuff more in there.   Cornish Cross eat a LOT, they poop a LOT, they grow fast and make a LOT of meat. They are a good way to pack the freezer in a short time, but beware! Read up on them, they are labor intensive for those few short months.


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## Beekissed (Nov 25, 2020)

When the flock is at high numbers, I'll go through about 60-80 lbs of feed per month.  When I get it down to winter numbers(15-20), I'll go through about 40-60 lbs per month.   My layer mash cost a little over $10 per 40#.   So, somewhere between $11-$22 per month, depending on the season and flock size.


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