# REW NZ X Broken Blk NZ = What color is this thing?



## GypsyG (Nov 23, 2018)

I have a rabbit that is the result of a cross between a REW NZ and a Broken Black NZ... At first I thought she was a Chestnut agouti, but she has a blue grey belly instead of tan, and dark ear lining.  What is this coloration called?  What genes could the the REW be carrying that would result in that color when crossed with a broken blk who had nothing but but black in it's seven generation pedigree?


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Nov 23, 2018)

Sounds like a steel, which is a dominate gene but can be hidden in a REW. Pictures are more helpful.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 23, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> Sounds like a steel, which is a dominate gene but can be hidden in a REW. Pictures are more helpful.



I can't figure out how to to get pics to load in my post, but she is on my profile pic.  I don't think she's a steel, she looks Chestnut except for the dark belly, legs and ear lining.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 23, 2018)




----------



## B&B Happy goats (Nov 23, 2018)

Sorry , i haven't  a clue myself, we have NZ rabbits only. But yours sure is pretty.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 23, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Sorry , i haven't  a clue myself, we have NZ rabbits only. But yours sure is pretty.


She's 100% NZ, just an odd color because I used a REW buck on a broken black doe.


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Nov 23, 2018)

We are just starting out with rabbits, have three does one buck, waiting for them to mature so we can breed.., i have no clue what a REW is...been busy with breeding the goats, chickens and learning begins now with the rabbits


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Nov 23, 2018)

Looks like a Gold Tipped Steel to me. Some are darker and some more golden than others. Steel is a very weird gene.


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Nov 23, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> We are just starting out with rabbits, have three does one buck, waiting for them to mature so we can breed.., i have no clue what a REW is...been busy with breeding the goats, chickens and learning begins now with the rabbits


REW = Red Eye White (or some say Ruby Eye White)


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Nov 23, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> REW = Red Eye White (or some say Ruby Eye White)


Thank you, that was really kind of you to let me know


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 23, 2018)

A lot of Steels really just look like a very dark Chestnut; some even have white bellies. Since Steel can look like a self-patterned rabbit, and doesn't show on self-patterned rabbits, it's possible for a Black (or Broken Black) to be carrying Steel, and not show it - so it's possible this could have come from your doe, as well.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 24, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> A lot of Steels really just look like a very dark Chestnut; some even have white bellies. Since Steel can look like a self-patterned rabbit, and doesn't show on self-patterned rabbits, it's possible for a Black (or Broken Black) to be carrying Steel, and not show it - so it's possible this could have come from your doe, as well.



I may be completely wrong in my understanding of steel, but in order for my doe to have it, wouldn't she have to have two copies to still appear dense black?


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 25, 2018)

If your doe is a self (aa) she could have Steel (Es) and nobody would know, until she was bred to a rabbit with agout (A). Some will tell you that Steel puts ticking on a self; I do not understand how that is supposed to happen (since Steel acts by putting more black on the coat than you would otherwise see), and I had always heard that Steel doesn't show on a self. I have had rabbits that I knew were A_Esej that were solid black or just lightly ticked. My understanding is that only A_EsE will appear as the classic Steel; any other combination can have a wide range of expression from solid black through various amounts of ticking.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 25, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> If your doe is a self (aa) she could have Steel (Es) and nobody would know, until she was bred to a rabbit with agout (A). Some will tell you that Steel puts ticking on a self; I do not understand how that is supposed to happen (since Steel acts by putting more black on the coat than you would otherwise see), and I had always heard that Steel doesn't show on a self. I have had rabbits that I knew were A_Esej that were solid black or just lightly ticked. My understanding is that only A_EsE will appear as the classic Steel; any other combination can have a wide range of expression from solid black through various amounts of ticking.




ej?  That's the gene responsible for harlequins and tri-colors, right?

Please excuse my ignorance. I know horse color genetics backwards, forwards, up and down... I'm just now starting to try to wrap my head around rabbit colors though.


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 25, 2018)

GypsyG said:


> ej?  That's the gene responsible for harlequins and tri-colors, right?



Yes. The rabbits in question were the result of breeding a pedigreed Harlequin buck to a NZW.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 25, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> Yes. The rabbits in question were the result of breeding a pedigreed Harlequin buck to a NZW.


 I just aquired my first ej rabbit the other day!  Her name is Zelda. Does she have to be bred to another rabbit that carries ej in order to have visual ej kits?


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 25, 2018)

Harlequin (ej) is dominant to non-extension (e), so breeding a visual harlie to an animal with at least one copy of non-extension gives you at least a chance of harlequin/tri babies. Of course, holding fast (as they do) to "how can we drive her crazy today," I'd have to do a cross several times to get the color I want to see, and that kit would die at birth, or get pulled from the nest and die, or find some other way to not be what I was looking for after all.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 25, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> Harlequin (ej) is dominant to non-extension (e), so breeding a visual harlie to an animal with at least one copy of non-extension gives you at least a chance of harlequin/tri babies. Of course, holding fast (as they do) to "how can we drive her crazy today," I'd have to do a cross several times to get the color I want to see, and that kit would die at birth, or get pulled from the nest and die, or find some other way to not be what I was looking for after all.



Thank you for the information!  I have a big broken red buck, I'm about to retire him because he's getting old and judging by his last two litters he's sired I think he's shooting lots of blanks.  Maybe I'll try him out one more time on her and cross my fingers for a decent tri-colored Charlie!

I posted a new thread today with pics of my herd and my best genetic guesses about them.  If you enjoy color genetics and would be willing to help me fill in some of the blanks I would greatly appreciate any input!

Thanks again, Bunnylady!

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/fun-genetic-puzzles.38736/


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 26, 2018)

GypsyG said:


> a decent tri-colored Charlie!



Be careful what you wish for.

Just as there are some horse spotting genes that can cause issues that go far beyond color, the broken gene is also a two-edged sword. The gene that causes the broken pattern (En) is involved in the formation of the nerves and muscles surrounding the digestive tract. Animals with one copy of En have a few less of the nerves than enen animals, but EnEn animals have a lot fewer, so their digestive systems are downright sluggish. In addition, there is a condition called megacolon, where at least part of the large intestine balloons into a shape that is more like a pouch than a tube. A few months ago, I read a study that examined this issue, using Checkered Giants as the test subjects (I'd hunt it up and do a link to it, but it has such a high fog index it could be a cure for insomnia). The study found a 1-to-1 correlation between EnEn animals and megacolon. At minimum, animals with this condition have difficulty absorbing nutrients; Charlies in general grow slower than their siblings. Depending how badly the animal is affected, it may seem otherwise fairly normal, but they are prone to GI stasis episodes, and eventually, you won't be able to get the digestive system going again. Some Charlies don't survive long enough to crawl out of the nest box. The condition seems to be progressive; animals that seem only slightly affected as youngsters get worse over time, so just being a Charlie pretty much guarantees a shortened lifespan. The issue is serious enough, a lot of breeders just don't do broken-to-broken breedings, simply to avoid the risk of producing Charlies.


----------



## GypsyG (Nov 26, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> Be careful what you wish for.
> 
> Just as there are some horse spotting genes that can cause issues that go far beyond color, the broken gene is also a two-edged sword. The gene that causes the broken pattern (En) is involved in the formation of the nerves and muscles surrounding the digestive tract. Animals with one copy of En have a few less of the nerves than enen animals, but EnEn animals have a lot fewer, so their digestive systems are downright sluggish. In addition, there is a condition called megacolon, where at least part of the large intestine balloons into a shape that is more like a pouch than a tube. A few months ago, I read a study that examined this issue, using Checkered Giants as the test subjects (I'd hunt it up and do a link to it, but it has such a high fog index it could be a cure for insomnia). The study found a 1-to-1 correlation between EnEn animals and megacolon. At minimum, animals with this condition have difficulty absorbing nutrients; Charlies in general grow slower than their siblings. Depending how badly the animal is affected, it may seem otherwise fairly normal, but they are prone to GI stasis episodes, and eventually, you won't be able to get the digestive system going again. Some Charlies don't survive long enough to crawl out of the nest box. The condition seems to be progressive; animals that seem only slightly affected as youngsters get worse over time, so just being a Charlie pretty much guarantees a shortened lifespan. The issue is serious enough, a lot of breeders just don't do broken-to-broken breedings, simply to avoid the risk of producing Charlies.



Thanks for the info!

Darn it!   I had just read an article about how a Charlie would produce 100% broken kits when bred with a solid... The article didn't mention any of the bad stuff.  I guess I'll have to rethink that wish.


----------

