# Hubby said "Yes" to goats, but...



## Briard'nSheep (Jun 4, 2013)

my hubby said yes we could get a goat, but it needs to have many characteristics...so what breed?

We don't have much grass, mostly forest, shrubs, etc that the goat would help clear. It needs to get along with our 5 kathadin ewes as they would be housed together. (We'd  place a mineral block out of reach for the sheep). Not attack my dog when he's herding the sheep and easy on our fences. 

We are currently in the process of fencing our entire property with page wire. and don't want to see the goat finding a tree to get over our 5ft fence.

It needs to be weather tolerant as it goes down to -31F (plus wind chill) in the winter. 

I don't care for size of the goat, milk would be an added bonus, so what breed do you suggest?

Is there a breed more common that would be easier to find here in the middle of oil country?


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## DonnaBelle (Jun 4, 2013)

If the weather is that extreme, you will need to have heated water buckets, and a good shelter/barn for the goat to be in in the winter.

What do your neighbors do for their animals?  Climate dictates a lot as to what kind/size animals are good for your area.

Goats need good hay, minerals free choice, and in an extremely cold climate some feed supplementation with a 16% goat ration twice a day.

Have you done research on goats and their requirements?  Goats love brush and are great foragers in summer, but in dead of winter need clean, fresh hay on a daily basis.

DonnaBelle


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 4, 2013)

Donna Belle, We have a friend who is giving us good grass hay off his own fields, he feeds it to his cattle in the winter. The winter before last was only 4 months, but this year it was about 7 months. Our sheep have a simple shelter with 4 walls, tarp roof, and a small door so we can lock them in at night. Keeps the predators and neighbours dogs out. They are protected from cold winds, etc
In the winter I plan to bring in straw for better insulation and warmth.

I am just starting on my goat research, so thought I'd get some input on breed to better understand their needs.  I do understand they are better foragers then sheep! which is why we are thinking of bringing in 1 or 2. 

Thanks


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 4, 2013)

If you don't have a specific preference, look at various breeds and see which one strikes your fancy.  
Find a breeder in your area.
Everyone could preach the virtues of their particular breed.
Where in "oil country" are you located?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 4, 2013)

I agree with 1 fine-

also goats prefer brush and trees, heavy forest..not really pasture but yes they will eat the grass to. They tend to like a variety.
Mineral block is not good for goats...losse mineral. put it up high as goats will jump up and climb sheep won't so no worries there.

I have 2 sheep that were brought into my herd of Nigerian Dwarfs and (Full size) Lamancha. Our goats NEVER bullied or hurt the sheep. Over time though the sheep have become very mean to the goats...not the Lamancha, I think because she is so big. They continually rammed my goats...pregnant ones at that. They are now separate from my goats.

Sheep run and ram. Goats can rear up but usually its a warning, or playfullness. I would worry much more about your sheep hurting the goats rather than the other way around. 

Goats do not chase dogs either, they are usually very intimidated by herding dogs especially. Goats do very well with LGD's and most dogs that are NOT chasing them. None of our dairy goats or Kiko Meat goats have ever chased any dog.

Goats are however very social. A single lone goat may not fare well as it more than likely will not be accepted by the sheep. That isn't always the case but the old saying "birds of a feather flock together" is something to consider. Goats are very "people oriented". Of course some breeds are less so but generally goats want to be loved on, petted, they are curious etc.

Fencing.... the abuse on fencing I think has more to do with breeds. We have 3 breeds here and none are hard on fencing, our Lamancha and the larger goats will get their heads stuck because of their horns though.  Our bucks in rut can really rub hard on the fences... hot wire does the trick.

We have field fencing but we also use 4-5 strand hotwire that we rotate through the woods and fields for our goats. The sheep freak out and run through the wire. :/  

I get the impression you have heard alot of negative stories about goats. 
Goat people get all the negatives about sheep too! 

Having both, there are things I really like about the two species. I will say I love the playfullness and interaction with the goats. They come when you call them, know there names and usually don't need a herding dog because they generally want to be with you and follow you around. Our sheep come up to us and we can scratch them on the chin... that took a long time... but they do not want you to pet on them or kiss or hug on them at all. Our sheep spook easily and take off running, kind of scary a few times as they will bulldoze anything in there way. Sheep seem a bit more aloof whereas the goats are always very aware..knowing their people and seem generally a bit "smarter" in a social way with humans. There smarts can get them into dutch though!


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 4, 2013)

We are located in the northern part of Alberta, Canada, quite a bit of cattle up here too.  

Are there certain breeds that would be hardier then others?

We have lots of trees, and under brush  on our property, not ideal for sheep, better for goats. 

Would there be a gender preference since we already have 5 kathadin ewes? (one being a lamb)


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## Southern by choice (Jun 4, 2013)

I think looking at purpose might be a place to start.

Is the goat/s intended for brush clearing?
Meat supply?
Dairy supply?

A wethered goat may be ideal. Although IMO you spend the same amount on feed and care etc with no real benefit.
Depending on the goat some are seasonal and some cycle year round.

For an excellent dual purpose the Kiko goat is great... the history of the kiko is top dairy crossed in with "feral" goats of New Zealand.
The kiko does well in harsh climates. extremely parasite resistant, low maintenance.
Does produce a great deal of milk , have very high wean weights. Good for producing meat goats with the benefit of great milk production.


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## woodsie (Jun 5, 2013)

I am familiar with the "oil country", you speak of Fort Macish? It does get really cold up there and I think if you don't have a heated barn you are going to want something crossed with a meat goat for the added bulk...I can't imagine a really dairy type Nubian doing very well in those harsh winters. Make sure you talk to local people that are running a similar set up so they have bred for goats to thrive up there....that being said it is certainly possible...my neighbour is from Beaverlodge and they had a herd of 600 goats up there doing weed control/brush clearing. I think he mostly used Kiko, Spanish, Boer and Sannen goats and crossbred them to get a herd that performed well in the north with little pampering.

I like Southern's idea of using a Kiko, seem to be a fantastic hardy breed that is very veratile...and that same neighbour is switching all his bucks out this year and bring in Kiko bucks so that should tell you something. Be sure to get two though and preferably from the same place...they seem to adjust best with a buddy and definitely need another goat live with (they are quite social).


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 5, 2013)

The purpose of the goat (s) would be for brush cleaning. 

Dairy would be a bonus, but not a requirement. 

We are about 2 hrs south of fort macmurray. Kiko is a good start, I'll look into that breed if there are any available in this area. 
Any other suggestions?

Would there be a gender preference to get along with our sheep?


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## SillyChicken (Jun 13, 2013)

Don't goats also require minerals (loose) with a high copper content - that is bad for sheep?


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## cjhubbs (Jun 13, 2013)

Yes  goats require minerals with a higher copper content then is healthy for sheep and actually could poison them. Also, just putting it out there that any of the Swiss breeds, such as alpines, saanens, toggenburgs and oberhaslis,  are more suited for leaving in a cold climate and can do quite well in them. However, like everyone else said I wouldn't suggest breeds that are more accustomed to warm climates such as Lamanchas or Nubians.


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 15, 2013)

Great advice, thank you all!

So what is the big hype about dwarf goats? there is a local farm that is selling Dwarf goats, are they as effective eaters as the big goats?


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## cjhubbs (Jun 15, 2013)

If by effective eaters you mean that the miniature breeds eat as much as the big goats then the answer is no. In terms of the general feed to milk ratio Nigerian Dwarf Goat's actually have one of the best if not the best feed to milk output ratio. However, you do need to keep in mind that many of the NG's will tend to browse on ground shrubs, plants and the lower areas of trees, compared to the larger breeds which will tend to focus more on larger shrubs, tree leaves and bark, and mid level plant. Also, this is of course a general thing because the saanen goats that we have will eat *any plants* in their reach whether it is higher up, mid level or towards the ground. Just keep in mind that the dwarf breeds, Nigerian Dwarfs and Pygmies, will almost always produce less milk then non dwarf breeds although your *top of the line * Nigerian Dwarf Doe has been known to produce 1/2 gallon a day. I have read and talked with friends that have had NG's and they tended to only get around 1 pint of milk at peak, which quickly depleted to around two cups a day at milking.  How much a gout outputs in milk really is contingent on quite a few factors though, such ad breed, quality of the animal itself and its conformation, genetics and the quality of care the animals receive. Okay I'm done, sorry if I blew your question way out of proportion I tend to get carried away answering questions .


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 15, 2013)

Cjhubbs, that was the answer I was looking for. Thanks for explaining the foraging difference, makes sense too. 

I think we'll leave the dwarfs to other people, we got ~3acres of forest to be cleared of brush. I did find a Kiko breeder within reasonable distance to us, but he never responded back to my email


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## cjhubbs (Jun 16, 2013)

That's interesting, I would actually be interested in seeing how well kikos would do in such a cold climate, saying they are based off of feral goats from NZ. If for some reason you can't find any kiko breeders nearby I definitely would look into some of the Swiss dairy breeds or perhaps a boer/ dairy goat cross. However, with dairy goats you would have to supplement the browse and/or hay with some grain. At the moment I feed my two full sized goats and my milker's twin bucklings hay twice a day and 6 cups of grain for the milking doe, 1 1/2 for the non-milking doe and 2 cups for bucklings although they do not tend to completely finish of their grain. With my two goats I typically go through 1 fifty pound bag every threeish weeks. So if you are not opposed to supplement browse and hay with some grain then definitely look into the diary breeds. The other question about getting dairy goats is how much milk would you be interested in having? For instance my Saanen doe gives us around 1 1/2 gallon every day (which is fine for my family of 11) but  might be way to much milk for others opposed to a friends alpine that gives around 3/4 a gallon a day. As a side note, although I live in a much warmer climate, New Hampshire, I have noticed that the Swiss breeds could care less about the snow and how cold it gets compared to the Nubians. My Saanens actually like to go out and play in the snow if it doesn't get to deep, in the ccase that it does I shovel out their pen for them and then they go outside and have more fun.

PS. I actually am experimenting with my non-milking doe on feeding her a browse/hay only diet along with minerals. So far things have been great and she is healthy and in a great body condition. However, I haven't been doing it for long enough to say that it is a good suggestion to follow and would say others input on that matter would be best.


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## meme (Jun 16, 2013)

Our goats clear a lot of alfalfa hay and grain.  The only "brush clearing" they do is grabbing any oak or manzanita leaves they can reach. A lot of people expect goats to eat everything, but in my experience they really don't. However, some people have had good success. Not trying to be harsh, just giving fair warning!


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## cjhubbs (Jun 16, 2013)

As meme said how much browse and what browse a goat will eat really does depend somewhat on the breed but more on the individual animal. I personally have had great success when opening the goat area into a more heavily planted area and have had the goats clear all of the browse within a couple days. Although I have the freakish goats that will even eat the straw bedding I put down with zeal.


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