# How precise does copper dosing need to be?



## Our7Wonders (Mar 4, 2011)

I know some of you use a gram scale and get it down to the exact amount.  Is this really necessary?

I hope not, don't want to end up with a dead doe.  Here's my theory, tell me what you think.

Copasure 12.5 grams is meant for a calf 150 to 500 pounds.  That's a HUGE weight variation.  Goat dose seems to be recommended at about 1 gram for 22 pounds.  So a goat at 145 pounds (what my goats weigh) should need about 6.6 grams each.  The bolus, split, in half is 6.25 grams.  So I emptied the contents and eyeballed half - split it and then recapsuled it into 4 smaller capsules.  Nothing exact - but that shouldn't be a problem, right?  If 12.5 is for 150 to 500 pounds then 6.25ish SHOULD be good for 75 to 250 pounds - does that sound ok?  

So two of my new capsules each.  I wanted to try Helmstead's syringe/probios paste method but I don't have any slip syringes.  Next time. 

While we're at it, how do you know if you've overdosed?  I mean, besides an obvious dead goat.  Has anyone here heard of a goat EVER overdosing at 1 gram per 22 pounds of copasure?


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 4, 2011)

From what I have been reading on it. Some people give the entire bolus to each goat and some people divide it up. Doesn't sound to me that it needs to be very precise.

I am going to the feed stores this weekend to buy Copasure for the first time. I am looking forward to adding it to our routine.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 4, 2011)

I started doing what Helmstead does, put the copper in a syringe that I cut off the end and give them 1cc per 60 lbs. So that isn't exact and I haven't killed any of my goats yet.


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## Roll farms (Mar 4, 2011)

I keep trying the syringe thing, and all that's happening is they're chewing it up b/c I can't seem to get it far enough back.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 4, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I keep trying the syringe thing, and all that's happening is they're chewing it up b/c I can't seem to get it far enough back.


Great, I was going to try this over the weekend, I was hoping it would be easy.  I was going to try to give a couple of them the whole thing and try the syringe thing as well.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 4, 2011)

I did the same with the paste and rods as Karen.  But I did weigh mine. And wieghed all the goats and got as close as I could.

They can get too much which will give them copper toxcity.  It will kill their liver and then in turn..kill them.  

Its 1 gram per 22 pounds of goat.  So if your goat 145 and you give 6.5 grams.  Your on pretty much on!!!   

I think it would be better to underestimate on copper than overestimate.  
IMO...and I would just forget about the range of dosing for cows.  Its differant and to big a span for goats.  I would stick to 1 gram per 22 lbs of goat.  

Good luck!!


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## chandasue (Mar 4, 2011)

Does anyone have Natural Goat Care book? I think in there it talked about dosing copper and something along the lines that they kept upping the does to "lethal" levels but it seemed there was no limit that would kill them. I'm NOT saying it's good for them to be so overdosed but maybe they have a very high tolerance to copper. Selenium was a different story though and that needed to be more precise. Anyone else read that?


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## cmjust0 (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm one of the gram scale people, but that's because I'm one of the first people I knew of in my area who bit the bullet and bolused with copper...and I had quite a few people telling me I was about to kill my goats.  Figured I may as well kill them as accurately as possible. 



Since then, I've come to be far less squeamy about exactly how much copper a goat's *actually* getting from the boluses -- and likewise, how dangerous it *actually* may be -- because I came to learn just how poor copper oxide's bioavailability really is..  Which, of course, is next to zero..

Not to mention, who really knows where the 1g/22lbs (aka 100mg/kg) dosage came from.  The only actual trials I've seen indicated that 0.5g worked well for kids, and 5-10g worked well for 'older goats,' but that the higher you got, the more it started to impact things like packed cell volume..  

And generally speaking, 100mg/kg works out somewhere on the low end of "between 5-10g" for an "older" (aka, adult) goat, and it's a good round number, soooo...yeah, that's where I figure it came from.  But who knows, yanno?!?  I'm speculating, as are we all, and the point is that dosage -- no matter where you happen to read it -- is strictly empirical anyway.

Moreover...  ...I personally know a guy who poked an entire 12.5g bolus down a wormy doe's neck with a tobacco stick, and not only did she live, but she *improved* quite a bit, and pretty rapidly.

That's also empirical, of course, but at this point...it works for me.


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## elevan (Mar 4, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've tried this and over all I liked it.

I have 1 doe that if you come at her with an oral syringe she sucks the whole thing into the back of her mouth as if it were a bottle no matter what you got in it...to another who you have to pry her mouth open and fight the whole time with her...but overall it was easy.

I didn't have any slip syringes...just used a pair of scissors to cut off the end of a lock one and it worked fine.

eta: I found that using a much larger syringe than was necessary allowed me to get it further back into their mouth.


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

I'll get argued with here - but it really doesn't matter if they chew the rods...you might have noticed they're already ranging in size from a rod to little teensy balls in the bolus?  I have several who manage to roll the rods up their tongue and chew 'em down...but the bolus still gets the desired result...

As far as being dead on accurate...not important.  A good portion of the bolus comes right out the business end, anyway.


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## mogolady (Mar 4, 2011)

From what I understand when using the copper rods it is pretty hard to overdose (not that I would purposely give to much). They embed in the lining of the stomach(s) then, since they are "slow release", the copper levels should rise slowly.


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## freemotion (Mar 4, 2011)

I don't remember anyone saying how OFTEN they bolus?  And do you bolus everyone, or just those who show signs of deficiency?  I ask because 3 of my 7 are black, two show signs of deficiency and will be bolused, and one does not.  All get minerals.  I wouldn't know about the others, as they are all light brown or light grey or cream-colored.  Unless I hear otherwise, I plan on just bolusing everyone....but what about the black doe who is jet black?  She was very deficient last winter but looks great this year.  Not a speck of rust on her.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 4, 2011)

Please forgive my ignorance, but can you tell me what signs you see that indicate copper deficiency?  

I swear the more I read on this board, the more paranoid I become AND the more educated!

Thanks everyone for all the wonderful information!


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

I bolus everyone.  Beginning at 6 mos of age, too.  In GA I needed to bolus every 6 mos.  Here in Indiana, available copper is better - I can do it less on MOST of my goats, around every 8 mos.  I do have a few that have needed it still on the 6 mos. schedule...

Once you start, you'll see the 'change' then you can see the subtle hints that they need it again.  Product directions indicate every 8 mos.

Signs are rough coat, poor weight gain/maintainance, fish tail, fading of color at flank, high worm load/recurring worm load despite deworming, conception issues, low birth rates (small litters) and slow kids.


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## chandasue (Mar 5, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I'll get argued with here - but it really doesn't matter if they chew the rods...you might have noticed they're already ranging in size from a rod to little teensy balls in the bolus?  I have several who manage to roll the rods up their tongue and chew 'em down...but the bolus still gets the desired result...
> 
> As far as being dead on accurate...not important.  A good portion of the bolus comes right out the business end, anyway.


Thanks for saying this. I sort of thought it was odd that they couldn't chew it considering the copper in the loose minerals is finely ground...


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## cmjust0 (Mar 7, 2011)

chandasue said:
			
		

> Thanks for saying this. I sort of thought it was odd that they couldn't chew it considering the copper in the loose minerals is finely ground...


The copper in loose minerals is probably copper sulfate or copper proteinate.  Totally different from copper oxide.  The forms of copper used in *good* mineral have a much higher bioavailability than copper oxide, so they're not designed to stick in the folds of the abomasum and slowly release over time.

COWP boluses are designed to do just that.

I'm big on making sure the COWP goes down the way it was intended to go down, but there's actually some emerging research showing COWP's equally effective in reducing FECs of barberpole infestation when included *in the feed* versus being dosed via gelcap...and yeah, they're pretty much gonna chew it up if it goes in their feed.

Now, having said that, reducing FECs and increasing copper stores in the liver are two different things!  I haven't seen any research to indicate that liver stores go up whether they chew it or not, so the jury's still out on that one..  

And having said _that,_ since there's no true *benefit* to tossing it in their feed other than not having to bolus...given the bolus and feed methods work equally well, I mean...I'll continue to bolus because I don't mind bolusing.  And, to me, that's what people seem to get stuck on the most -- a fear of bolusing.

:/

And having said *THAT* (  ) if someone can show me research indicating that liver stores come up even when they chew the rods, well...I'll just pitch it in the feed, too.


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## chandasue (Mar 7, 2011)

Thanks for clarifying... I think.   I don't know which copper is in my loose minerals so I'll have to check on that.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 7, 2011)

well, I didn't bolus - tried but it didn't go down.  I tried the peanut butter thing to see if I could sneak it in there - they chew peanut butter.  After repeated attempts I gave up.

I poured a little molasses in a bowl and put a little water on top to see what she'd do.  She licked and slurped.  No chewing.  So I then put just a little more molasses and poured out the copper rods - she licked 'em all down and about attacked me for more.  

So next time I won't bother putting them in the capsule - that was the most time consuming part.  (aside from experimenting out how to get her to take it).  

I did read about a marshmellow thing - the gal packed the rods inside.  I'm assuming her goat must chew it at least a little - I don't know, maybe not.  But she did have her vet x ray the goat afterwards - and sure enough their were little rods all over showing.  It would be interesting to know if they chewed much.

I didn't want to risk it - so I found a semi easy way to get her to take without much chewing.  And she's still with me a couple days later - no OD so far.  Then again, since the copper slowly leaches out it might take some time to see issues.


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## RainySunday (Mar 14, 2011)

Where do you get copper to give them?


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## jodief100 (Mar 14, 2011)

Copasure for cows.  You can get it from Jeffers, valley ect, etc.


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## RainySunday (Mar 14, 2011)

thanks, and yikes that's pricey!  Since I think one capsule would take care of my little ND does!


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## jodief100 (Mar 14, 2011)

I am certain somone here can supply you with a single capsule if needed.  I just bolused and have half the jar left, I think I can spare one.


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