# using sport dog e collar for training



## dwbonfire (Jan 5, 2012)

my new shepherd is 18 months old and big. he was supposedly exposed to all farm animals, chickens, horses, goats etc. i was told he chases cats, but just in a playful manner. however, hes either testing the waters here, or some fibs were told becauses hes rather interested in all my poultry. hes smart and becoming more obediant of me in the short time i have had him, but i feel like this is nothing to mess around with. i got a good deal on a sport dog collar, but unfortunely didnt come with the users manual. before i subject him to this i want to really know how to use it. i think i can download the manual online which i will do.
i plan to eventually try to find a trainer to help me train him correctly. i want him obediant and protective. at this stage he is still settling in, but i want to address the "chickens and livestock are not for chasing" rule right away. id like to hear any advice and experience with e collar training if anyone out there has used one. i dont want to be flamed for going this route, please. i plan to use it humanely and just as a tool to teach my dog boundaries, because a hard tug on the choke chain doesnt seem to phase him. also i want to be able to trust him off the leash eventually and not worry about him killing my animals.
some specific questions i have are about the timing for the zap. do you get him when hes showing interest in going over to the chickens, or wait til hes run over to them and then quickly zap him before he pounces on one? hes so big theres no room for error, even if hes not aiming to kill and only to play, hes going to easily cause damage so i fear i wont get the zap in quick enough for it to register for him to LEAVE IT.
also! do i use a command to "leave it" or "no" when i zap him, or do i simply zap him and let him think it was the animal he was going after? rather than him associating me with the zap? i think it would be good for him to think the animal itself did it, but then again think he needs to be very aware of when i say "no" there might be a zap to follow if he doesnt listen. i feel like if i say a command with the zap he will better respect it when hearing it without the collar on.
also, how should i test it out to see the strength i need? i know some people try it on themselves but personally i cant bring myself to do that. id hate to really fry the poor bugger, but also hate if i give him the reins to get near my chickens and the zap doesnt phase him then hes going to follow through with getting one! to test it out i hate to just zap him for no reason to see the reaction.

again please no one who disagrees with this method give me grief, i think being used the correct way this method is totally acceptable, and i am just looking for some good advice and info and opinions!
thanks!!


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## redtailgal (Jan 6, 2012)

There is no reason for anyone to flame you over this.  You are using a humane and effective tool to train your dog, and protect your livestock.  There is nothing wrong with this.

Many training collars will have a warning tone........use it as describe below.  If you dont have one, then well, dont try to give a warning tone! 

Short version:

"dog, leave it!" sound warning beep if you have one

dog ignores you...........

"dog leave it!" mildest zap that the dog needs to establish correction  (correction is a stimulus strong enough to get the dogs attention away from the bad behavior)

dog stops bad behavior......

"dog, GOOD BOY!!!!!  YAY!!! What a good boy!!!""

Yes, use the command.  He needs to associate the collar with innappropriate behavoir, and your voice with the reward for proper behavior.  
As for the livestock, I would correct at the FIRST sign of playfulness.......or what you think may possibly, maybe be in some fasion be playfulness. To be blunt, if he has already given chase, even friendly playful chase, I would correct him as soon as he LOOKS at them.


Once you have voice commands established, and he obeys them instantly and *without question*, then move out of site but wtihin collar range.


Wait and ambush...........become a sniper..........(yeah, the flu meds have me a little silly)

He will see that you are gone and do something he shouldnt.  At this point, dont say a word, just give the warning tone (if you have one), if not then zap his butt.  DO NOT GIVE AWAY YOUR LOCATION, just zap him and see if he will self correct.  

To find the strength that you need........put the collar on the lowest setting to begin with.  Just push the button at this point, he may not even react at this point.  Just bump it up one notch at a time, and watch carefully for him to react.  The goal here is to stop "upping" the strength BEFORE it becomes uncomfortable.  You want to catch it  right at the point where he says "Hey..........something is all tingly! what is it?"

This is your starting point.  From here on, you will have to gamble a little bit.  Give him a command that he doesnt do well.  Take him to a new place on your property and give him a boundary that he is not allow to cross, put him on a long line (for now) and let him get close to the chickens.......what ever you choose, take it slow.  Follow the guidline above.......Dog, leave it (or whatever the appropriate command is)  with a warning tone if available.  then Dog, leave it, with correction.  

If he does not stop the behaviour, turn it up a notch.........and "dog leave it" with the new settings.

Repeat until he stops the behavoir with the e-collar stimulus. (may take sever times to find his "spot" on the dial).  

The goal here is to use the mildest form of correction as possible.  He may "yipe" and he may not......it doesnt matter. If he screams and uns away from where he was, you need to turn it down.  A dog that is panicking is not a dog that is learning.  You are looking for that behaviour modification.  Whatever level gives you that behavior modification is his working correction level.  

Remember, PRAISE the instant the behavior is corrected, except when you are in "stealth mode".  Be lavish with your praise and consistent.  Be firm with your corrections and consistent.

Also, get two extra collars for him, just super cheap dollar store nylon collars.  He will wear three collars for a couple weeks ( collar a, collar b and collar c).  Then, take off one, and let him wear two, but switch them out. (collars a and c one day, b and c the next, then a and b, c and d etc.....you get the point).  THis will provide some collar confusion, so you wont end up with a dog that onlyu minds when he is wearing THAT collar.  For a very stubborn and very smart dog, I recommend NEVER putting on JUST the training collar.  

For example, your dog wears collar A all the time. Collar B is the training collar.  So, you put on collar b and collar C.  Sometimes you take collar a off, sometimes dog wears all three.

You could skip over the extra collars, and just resort to it if you see a problem starting, but once a dog learns which collar makes them behave, its very hard to unlearn them.


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## dwbonfire (Jan 6, 2012)

great info! thanks a ton.. good idea about the switching of collars, i bet hes smart enough to figure that out in time so i will switch them. hes got a choke chain, and i got him a new leather collar which will prob feel a little more bulky and heavy than a light weight nylon. i will get him a nylon too. is that an ok idea? i figure maybe with the different feeling/weight of the collars and swapping them all the time he wont get too used to which is the collar that bites!

i have been trying to find some videos on youtube about using this collar and training methods. when we get to the point of off leash and free beyond the fence id like to have him obey "come" above any other command. he does well with it now, i work on that and praise and give small treats and hes happy to obey that, but can and should this collar be used for when i say "come" and if he is delayed in listening i give him a slight reminder? im just worried i will use it incorrectly and end up having a dog who fears a command or get the opposite outcome that im going for. basically, should this collar only be used for the command "no"? or can i use it for other commands too? i just dont want to confuse him and if i say "come" and he needs a reminder, than he thinks im yelling at him since before hes gotten zapped with "no".

sorry if thats confusing, maybe im overthinking it all but i just dont want to use it all wrong.


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## Mamaboid (Jan 6, 2012)

dwbonfire said:
			
		

> great info! thanks a ton.. good idea about the switching of collars, i bet hes smart enough to figure that out in time so i will switch them. hes got a choke chain, and i got him a new leather collar which will prob feel a little more bulky and heavy than a light weight nylon. i will get him a nylon too. is that an ok idea? i figure maybe with the different feeling/weight of the collars and swapping them all the time he wont get too used to which is the collar that bites!
> 
> i have been trying to find some videos on youtube about using this collar and training methods. when we get to the point of off leash and free beyond the fence id like to have him obey "come" above any other command. he does well with it now, i work on that and praise and give small treats and hes happy to obey that, but can and should this collar be used for when i say "come" and if he is delayed in listening i give him a slight reminder? im just worried i will use it incorrectly and end up having a dog who fears a command or get the opposite outcome that im going for. basically, should this collar only be used for the command "no"? or can i use it for other commands too? i just dont want to confuse him and if i say "come" and he needs a reminder, than he thinks im yelling at him since before hes gotten zapped with "no".
> 
> sorry if thats confusing, maybe im overthinking it all but i just dont want to use it all wrong.


You can use the collar for all commands.  With the come command, give the verbal command and the warning tone one time.  If he comes, HIGH praise.  If not, give the verbal command, then the warning tone, and then a "zap" on the lowest setting you know he reacts to.  When he comes, HIGH praise.  Repeat as needed until he comes with just the verbal command, OR just the warning tone.  I have mine trained to come to just the warn tone.  The minute they hear it, they come and stand by my side to see what "Mom" wants them to do next.  It only takes a very few times before they get it.


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 6, 2012)

My husband uses a "shock collar" for training his bird dogs.  He has never used it above the first setting.  He says he uses it to "get their attention."  

Some dogs like to chase deer or just want to go off hunting on their own.  The collar is a great aid in training the dogs to "pay attention to the job they are supposed to be doing."

Nobody loves their dogs more than my husband.  He bought this ranch for them. LOL.  He raises quail, sets them out to train and "work" the dogs with.  He says there's nothing more beautiful than a bird dog on point and doing his job properly.

DonnaBelle


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## Chirpy (Jan 6, 2012)

A few years ago I was also learning about using  one of those collars on a very head strong dog.  I worked with a professional breeder/shower/handler/trainer of GSD's who has trained dogs (of all breeds) for around 40 years.  The local dog shelters would send dogs to her that they couldn't adopt out because of some 'issue'.  She would work with the dogs and they would become wonderful family members.  Many, many of her dogs are used by police and military (around the world) and many others are just part of a family so she has the best experience of anyone I personally know when it comes to training dogs.   Just saying all that to give some 'quality' to my answer.

Most dogs respond very positively to an E collar when used as stated by redtailgal.   

The trainer told me to push the button (whether vibration or shock) at the first "focused turn of the head toward the chickens".  If she was sitting at the house and turned to stare at the chicken run - push the button.  You don't want the dog to fixate on the problem for even a couple of seconds.

My dog also was so smart that she figured out immediately what collar she had (changing them out made no difference) on.

My dog was one of the ones that responded very, very angrily to the collar and thus I couldn't use it on her... so be aware that some dogs may become more aggressive when the collar is used with them and so a different training method must be used.

Good luck.


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## dwbonfire (Jan 8, 2012)

yeah i was worried about him responding aggressively to the collar, not that i have had any reason to think that but its just a thought he may be the type to 'not put up with it'. if thats the case should i just persist through it? i mean hes only going to get zapped if hes doing wrong so as long as hes minding he wont have any trouble.

i think tomorrow will be the day i try it out for the first time, i just havent had time to download the manual and read it thoroughly so i will do that before i test it out! ill keep yall posted on how he does. thanks!


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## Chirpy (Jan 9, 2012)

In my situation I had to stop using the collar because of the aggressiveness of my dog.  She was transferring that aggression (because she couldn't get her teeth on that collar - though she tried) to everything around her so it was an absolute "have to stop" using it immediately... remember that I was working with a professional trainer.     No one here can tell you absolutely what to do without seeing your dog in your situation... we can give ideas and helpful suggestions that you can take and try but you can 'damage' a dog by using an E-collar incorrectly.    

Definitely read through the manual and then, if you can, see if you can find a trainer in your area that uses the collar and talk to them on the phone to help you.

Good luck!


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## goodhors (Jan 9, 2012)

I went at this a bit differently, from advice I got from a professional Dog Trainer.

We put the collar on dog, part of her "outdoor clothing" each morning.  She wore
the collar all day, every day for about a week, before I started any kind of work
with her using the collar.  Collar came off at night, neck was checked for hair matting, 
rubs from the electrodes EVERY DAY.  She accepted the collar wearing as "normal day wear" 
and never tried to damage it.  It was fastened pretty tight, neck was clipped down
to about half inch of hair length, so she got good skin contact with the electrodes.

Dog being trained was to be contained in a fenced yard of some kind, closed, empty pole barn, so 
dog could run around on a horse lunge line or long rope, according to the TRAINER.  
My line was probably 20+ feet and we were in the fenced yard.  I held
the line, called the dog and reeled her in  Praised her, let the line out again for her 
to move away from me.  She actually already KNEW this stuff very well.  But being wilfull, 
she tended to ignore direction or run wildly about, touch you, but not actully come to you 
and stop by you when called.  She was not responsive to other nice methods, which is why
I went with the electric collar.  Too big a dog, too old to be so disobedient.  We did the 
Come several times, forcing the issue with reeling in the line.  She KNEW what we wanted, 
expected from her at that point.  Didn't feel like obeying, everything was a big game.

The Trainer had told me with my larger dog, 80#, to set the control on HIGH.  If you are going
to PUNISH for not being obedient, make it MEMORABLE!!  Low settings, in her experience
with MANY BREEDS, just teaches dog to "tough it out" and run thru the punishment.
Punishing the dog harshly FIRST, to get the idea in their head that you CAN "reach out
and touch them" makes later training MUCH EASIER to the dog.  You can dial back later.

Also said to NEVER POINT your hand at the dog for a direction or punishment.  Dog will 
associate the hand with the punishment.  Can get hand-shy or snap at the hand as
training goes on.

So with the line still on the dog, controller behind my back, I called her and zapped
her when she ignored me.  She literally jumped right up, and then I quickly reeled her
in with praise!  I let the line out, wandered around the yard, then called her again, and
zapped her when she didn't move my way.  I do dog name, then the command, COME.
She just was looking,but  no movement when I did the COME and zapped her, she jumped 
again, I reeled her in and praised her.  By the third time I worked in a COME as we 
ambled around the yard with the line on her, she was slowly moving my way when the 
COME was done being said.  Reeled her in and praised her.  We worked on this for a
while, but I wasn't doing a LOT of calling, just wanted her to be moving MY WAY 
when called.  I wanted her distracted, but learning to ignore distractions or be punished
if she didn't COME when called.

We did several sessions with the line, got things pretty perfect, PROMPT response in 
coming to me.  Then I did my training sessions with the line off.  She thought she was 
FREE, could ignore me again!!  Getting zapped was a very NASTY surprise to her, and 
she ran right over to me for praise and petting.  We did a number of sessions for the 
COME to be FIRMLY embedded in her thinking, responded to IMMEDIATELY even if 
she couldn't see me!!  All done within the fenced yard, she couldn't run away from fear
or pain response.  

Trainer had one dog that just lost it's mind when first zapped.
Owner didn't have the line on it, couldn't catch it in the yard, so dog was greatly 
confused when "hit by lightning" for no reason!  Dog was not going to respond to owner 
with no line to hold dog with, reel it in for the praise/reward part.  So be aware that
dog needs the line to reel him in and be able to reward him with praise for coming.  I am
sure there are dogs who would jump your fence if not held with a line when getting 
a zap.  Such a literal and mental shock to them, not expecting it at all!!

My dog and I progressed out to the field and barnyard, getting her to come, STAY, as
directed.  She was pretty much rocketing to me when she heard her name after being
"touched" way far in the field.  I gave her a moment for the sound to travel, saw head
come up, but no moving before the zap was applied.  That did get her moving to me!!

She also got zapped for going after the cats, despite being told "NO, Leave it!"  Took 
several zaps there, one for each cat, a RUNNING CAT, and couldn't obey.  They are a
terrible temptation for a dog.  She has a high "prey drive" and wants to chase things 
that move fast  More fun than anything!  Our barn cats have no CLUE that dogs can 
be dangerous, probably wouldn't run until she was right on them.  She is VERY FAST,
so stopping her was the best idea.  I was very harsh with the cat training part. 
Just not acceptable in any way.  We also punished her for running up and down, 
up and down, barking at the cats outside the fenced yard.  She was having fun 
working herself into a frenzy, exciting the other dog, when it was totally 
unneeded.  I stood in the house for that part, she got one warning, and then when
she went back to doing it after I left, she got "touched".  She did put it together
quickly, stopped acting like a fruitloop.  She also stopped the fence running when 
husband had the horses out in the barnyard.  Yes horse needs to see the dog, but
no one NEEDS a yappy big dog racing about.  Dog CAN lie down and watch, just not run
around.  

I have to say that the dog "got it" about the cats, horses, in a VERY SHORT 
time.  She is very smart, just "didn't feel like it" before.  An odd combination of 
submissive and "I won't" before.  I do think she is happier now, has decided that 
being obedient is way more fun, gets to go places she couldn't before.  She sticks 
with me when we go to the fields for work on the fence or cutting brush.  I tell her 
FREE and she can run all over to check things out.  No livestock in the fields to bother, 
maybe some wild rabbits or mice to chase.  She can't get out of the fields to be lost.  
The training has stuck pretty well since our sessions about 3 yrs ago.  She stays put 
in the barn as cats stroll or run by her.  She comes FAST when called, in various settings.
She is a much more enjoyable dog to have around, doesn't do the stupid stuff these
days.  Kind of got herself hysterical because it was fun, but now stops and doesn't react like that.

Shepherds are DARN smart, so have your line on him, review the basic commands so he is clear
on them before letting him try being disobedient. Take your time, get him consistantly obedient,
before trying new stuff.  You have to be able to trust him around the place if you have no
fenced yard, so the out-of-sight should be helpful in him KNOWING any livestock chasing 
is not allowed.  

The Shepherds are fairly energetic, THINKERS, so make sure he is kept busy with jobs
you want done.  If you don't, Shepherds get VERY CREATIVE in keeping busy.  Usually
is a bad thing, so it is up to your family to wear him out daily!!


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## dwbonfire (Jan 10, 2012)

goodhors, thanks a ton for sharing your experience. your dog sounds just like mine so it was informative for me to read about how you went about things.

yesterday was the first day i tried the collar. it took me a bit to figure out his point on the dial and we settled at 5. he has long hair so that might be why also. he didnt seem to notice 4 that well, or at least he didnt respond to it. 5 made him scoot which is what i wanted to see. i didnt want to hear him vocalize or react negatively. he went to pounce toward the chickens through the fence so i zapped him then and he scooted the opposite direction which i was thrilled to see. i said "no" but didnt yell it or point or anything like that. then i called him back to me to let me realize it wasnt the area he was in that got him zapped, it was the chickens. in another area he looked at them and postured toward them a bit so i got him quick then. after that we went out behind the fence on the lunge line. he thought about the guineas too long for my liking so i got him then.
on our way back in my cat came out of the barn and my dog definetly got all excited and headed slowly but stalkingly toward him so i got him then a little longer of a zap. he quickly turned the other way.

today i took him out and had the calf, sheep and goat in the yard along with whatever chickens wandered through and even the cats were there.. everyone wanted to participate today lol. he got it twice only, once when he went toward the sheep and once at the goat, although the goat holds her own. so i think he gets it now, hes really doing well. he walked all around the birds and stayed right with me, and if he wandered off and found himself with a chicken in between me and him, he took the long route back to me lol. i dont want him to fear being around them, but i do want him to fear chasing or pouncing on them. hes a smart boy though to already be doing so well. i went about my business but kept an eye on him and he did great. poor bugger has no idea about electric fences, hes going to end up figuring that out the hard way but right now i dont want him to think everything and everywhere is going to zap him so im keeping him from that for now.


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