# Too small?



## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 2, 2011)

Is there such thing as a doe which is too small to breed. I ask because my eight month old pygmy seems on the smallish side...she just now comes to my knee, and I can still pick her up without even trying, which seems small to me even for a pygmy...the little 4 month old is actually starting to catch up to her in the size department and the guy I bought her from said she was on the smallish side as well...

soooo...what would be considered to small to breed? (will get a good pic this evening...will probably get a weight on her as well)


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## elevan (Jul 2, 2011)

IMO pygmies should not be bred until they are a minimum of 12 months of age 15-18 months being better.  She needs time to grow and will not be done doing that for a while yet.  When she is mature enough to breed it's up to you to find a buck that is smaller than her to breed to.  No such thing as too small to breed imo if you can find a buck smaller than her.  But more importantly there is a "too young to breed".  Their pelvic bones are not fully developed yet...and they won't be able to pass the kid(s) through if they are not mature enough.  A mature pygmy doe weighs around 70#...surprising, huh?  I would wait until she is at least 12 months of age and at least 55-60# before breeding.

Read the story on this thread  and you'll understand what I'm saying.  I warn you it's quite tragic.


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks for the response, I agree, that thread was a little shocking...I had heard that a 2 month old could take but had never actually herd of it happening before, it breaks my heart, a little 2 month old doe having to go through being breed and carrying a baby through her young life...ultimately to the end. 

I was not really planning on breeding her till september or october...maybe november at the latest...is 10 or 11 months really to soon to consider breeding?


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## elevan (Jul 2, 2011)

I know it can be hard to wait...I've got an 8 month old myself that I've already had to lute because she found her way into the buck pen    I've got her mate picked out and am just waiting for her to turn 12-15 months.  She's a single kid so she's a bit bigger.  Her weight will determine if I go the 12 months or wait for the 15. 
<------(eta: she's the goat in my avatar)

I really do believe that for pygmies 10 months is too soon.  Keep an eye on her weight...if she gets to 55-60# (and it isn't overweight issues) then re-evaluate then.


_
Oh, and the kid in the thread took later than the OP thought...she was 4 or 5 months when bred...a tragic ending no matter how you look at it though._


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 2, 2011)

I agree, it is going to be very hard to wait, I was hoping for her to be my milking goat, but for her, I think I would wait 100 years(  ) if it would mean she wouldn't be in danger...


0.o I just weighed and measured Isabelle, she  is only 23 lbs, and about 17 inchs at the shoulder....she is in good body condition, sleek, smooth, and solid. She is neither bony nor flabby but...is it just me or is she really a small goat?


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## elevan (Jul 2, 2011)

I find that there seems to be 2 lines of pygmies...1 is shorter and a little more cobbly...the other is a little sleeker.

Can you post a couple of pictures of her?  Front view, side view and from above...


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 2, 2011)

Not exactly your front to back side to side up down photos but the best I could do at tha' moment,

the last pic was just her being silly


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## elevan (Jul 2, 2011)

She's built kind of like my Maggie...sleek.  Though I'm not entirely sure Isabelle (?) is 100% pygmy...but that doesn't matter.  Give her till at least 12 months of growing and then re-evaluate her.  She may not reach the 55-60# given her sleek build by the time she is 12 months...you can decide to wait longer or find a small buck at that time


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks,

Yeah, I have often wondered on Isabelle's "heritage"  The fella I got her from said pygmy, but remembering back at the coloration's and shapes of his goats I am thinking she might have a little Nigerian in her...(Personally I don't think he really knew what was mixed in his herd, really old nice fella though, he offered the use of one of his studs when I do finally decide to breed her, how ever far that may be down the line) Thanks for all the help...

Just out of curiosity...what tips you off that she might not be pure pygmy?


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## helmstead (Jul 2, 2011)

I think she's Nigerian, not Pygmy...


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 2, 2011)

Really...I always did kinda think she might have a little nigerian in her...if she does it would not be a bad thing considering I was hoping to use her as a dairy goat any way and Nigerians being a dairy breed an all...I always was a little worried because she seemed way too sleek for a  pygmy...I always worried that she was under weight...


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## helmstead (Jul 2, 2011)

She is pretty small still, I'd make sure she had another 10 lbs or so and gains some width through the hips before you breed her.  You can tell she's still growing - her butt's higher than her withers.  She doesn't show the maturity I'd be looking for yet.

My ND does range from 40 to 50 lbs on average.  Only my BIG girls (one ND/Pygmy who is a fatty and one hefty hoss of a ND doe who is nearly at the maximum height for the breed) weigh around 70 lbs.


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## elevan (Jul 2, 2011)

Her frame is really the tip off that she's either Nigerian Dwarf or a cross of pygmy / ND...  Although some people will call any small breed goat a pygmy   it doesn't make it so...

The second class of pygmy that I mentioned (sleek) is still stocky boned but tends to have a slightly longer neck and just look a little more refined.  

ND's have a dairy goat build...in miniature.  That's more along the lines of what your Isabelle looks like.  Helmstead raises NDs so she's very well versed in them...if she thinks it's a ND...I'm fairly sure it probably is or mostly is 

That just makes it better for you - since you want her to be a milker


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Jul 3, 2011)

Yup, I am a happy camper as far as her being a ND or ND cross,

thanks for all the advice, all really good info that I have been needing. I am definently gonna wait until she is more mature...hopefully by this winter she will put on some weight cause considering how hot the summers here are I don't want her having a summer kid...I may end up waiting a whole year before I even get a taste of goat milk *sigh...but I will say, her health is worth more to me than a couple ounces of milk every day


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