# Ethical Carnivores



## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

Once we move to our farm, I am considering the possibility of getting a cat for mice/rats, or a dog to guard the animals. However, I don't feel comfortable giving them standard dog or cat food, since the animals in it come from industrial farms that don't treat the animals right. Since one of the reasons why I want livestock in the first place is to have animal products from happy animals, then it seems wrong to then get a cat or dog that wouldn't eat the same way. 

Do any of you feed your cats or dogs with the animals you raise? If so, how many animals do you need and how does it work?


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

I agree with you on a philosophical level, and I've tried to do that. It would have worked fine for one of my dogs but the other has very high nutritional needs and I struggled with having enough to keep weight on her. I am unsure of the exact requirements though. I started a thread about it on here.I'll try to find it but my phone doesn't always cooperate.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/dog-food.34404/


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

Of course if a dog has special needs, then we have no choice, but I would like to know if it would be at all possible. I'm not sure it would be in my case though, because I don't have the buildings to house hundreds of animals, but maybe a cat would be possible. I don't know, just an idea. I'll check out your thread, thank you!


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

She doesn't have special needs per se, she's a hunting dog with super high metabolism!

I don't know about LGD breeds, they may also have higher needs. I'm curious to hear if anyone has more experience as I feel the same way as you!


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

I just meant different needs since she needs more food. From what I found online, it would seem that I would maybe need 40 chickens per year for one cat. That is a lot of food, but maybe doable. I could do two batches of 25 chickens. But I'm thinking that maybe I should do without for now since we are just starting out. I'll just hope my neighbours' cats chase the mice . Maybe I'll get a mule to guard instead (apparently they work fairly well). I've seen a few people selling some this winter, but there are no breeders that I know of in my area. There is only one, but they are miniature mules. I'd be interested in the draft mules. I guess I have a lot of research to do! My family isn't too fond of having a dog, but I've wanted one since I was little.


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## greybeard (Feb 28, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> However, I don't feel comfortable giving them standard dog or cat food, since the animals in it come from industrial farms that don't treat the animals right.


I'd love to hear more about that statement if you don't mind. 
I'm not familiar with the term "industrial farm" either.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

Industrial farm= CAFO, I assume


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## Baymule (Feb 28, 2017)

That ideal is too hard for most of us to accomplish. I feed my dogs kibble with the occasional farm treat. I canned chicken backs last summer with rice and vegetables and they get one of those quart jars once in a while, but honestly, I just don't have the want to or the time to raise and process all their food.

I think you mean a donkey and not a mule. Even donkeys have to be trained to other livestock.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

I think the term usually used in english is factory farms? In just translated the french term since I couldn't remember the other. For example, in factory farms, the animals are kept in cramped spaces, often they are dirty, the chickens have their beaks trimmed to avoid pecking since they are so tightly packed. I also saw a hidden camera video where the people went to see a turkey slaughterhouse, and the turkeys were hung by their feet on a turning thing that passed them through a blade, but depending on how the turkey moved (since it was scared), the blade would hit something else and cause unnecessary suffering. The male chicks of the egg industry are ground up alive, etc. I do not feel comfortable supporting this type of farming. We've been eating eggs and meat from small organic (and grassfed for red meat) farms, where we actually know the animals are free range, not just the so called "free range" that just means in a fence with a cement floor outside for a tiny bit each day, or "cage free" where they are still just as cramped, just not seperated in cages.

I agree with you Baymule, I think it won't be possible to raise them with my own meat. It would be too expensive. I did mean a mule though, haha. Not a very common animal, I suppose. Usually donkeys are used to guard livestock if LGDs aren't, but I do prefer a mule. I would try to train her, but even if she didn't guard, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I'd want her for riding, and also the fact that draft mules are very big might make a smaller predator think twice.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

Oh, and 40 chickens for a cat??? Wow! Ok, so say you raise Cornish X meat birds for your cat, say you butcher them at 4 lbs, that's 160 lb of meat. It costs about $2.50/lb if you butcher them yourself with the average cost of grain (around here) so that's $400 worth of chicken. I think I would skip a cat too!


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

The 40 chickens was based off of people saying they gave about 200g of meat per cat per day. That is way too expensive! I guess I'll stick to my future goats as being "pet dogs". Anyways, they should be fine. They will be sleeping in an enclosed shed, and during the day there aren't any predators (except cats, but I would only be worried about the chickens for those).


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## Baymule (Feb 28, 2017)

I just got rid of my mule because she wanted to stomp to death everything that wasn't a horse. Make sure the mule you buy gets along well with other animals.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

Wow, really? I hadn't heard of that happening. Did you get her as an adult? (Maybe if the mule grew up with the other animals...). Have you had any donkeys before?


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 28, 2017)

I had a mini-jack that also tried to kill everything...everything!  He picked up my PGCH pygmy doe and tossed her through the air then tried to stomp her to death.  He got cut the next day...didn't help enough so he was re-homed to someone who was warned!


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

Wow! I guess I'll cross them off my list then. Not worth spending that much on an animal that might not behave. I guess I'll just stick to goats and sheep as my mammals. Those of you who have LGDs, are your animals in 3 sided shelters? Otherwise, is it because you have a lot of predators during the day?


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 28, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> Wow! I guess I'll cross them off my list then. Not worth spending that much on an animal that might not behave. I guess I'll just stick to goats and sheep as my mammals. Those of you who have LGDs, are your animals in 3 sided shelters? Otherwise, is it because you have a lot of predators during the day?



I have LGD's because they are cool too.


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## Bruce (Feb 28, 2017)

I don't think a donkey or mule will keep mice and rats away 

Raising meat chickens to feed your animals shouldn't be terribly expensive. Especially if you have them free ranging, feeding themselves and can replace from within rather than buying chicks every 8-10 weeks. BTW, you don't need to raise "can't stand on their own after a month or so" Cornish Cross meat birds like the ones you buy in the store. Don't stuff them with food so they grow fast. Let them range, they can breed and raise chicks same as a layer breed.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 28, 2017)

Yeah you can't really do that with Cornish Crosses, they can't live that long. And no, you don't need to raise them, I was just giving an example.


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## BrendaMNgri (Feb 28, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> Once we move to our farm, I am considering the possibility of getting a cat for mice/rats, or a dog to guard the animals. However, I don't feel comfortable giving them standard dog or cat food, since the animals in it come from industrial farms that don't treat the animals right. Since one of the reasons why I want livestock in the first place is to have animal products from happy animals, then it seems wrong to then get a cat or dog that wouldn't eat the same way.
> 
> Do any of you feed your cats or dogs with the animals you raise? If so, how many animals do you need and how does it work?


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I don't think a donkey or mule will keep mice and rats away
> 
> Raising meat chickens to feed your animals shouldn't be terribly expensive. Especially if you have them free ranging, feeding themselves and can replace from within rather than buying chicks every 8-10 weeks. BTW, you don't need to raise "can't stand on their own after a month or so" Cornish Cross meat birds like the ones you buy in the store. Don't stuff them with food so they grow fast. Let them range, they can breed and raise chicks same as a layer breed.



Haha, a mule chasing rats . I guess I'll have to think about it and see. Now, I'm thinking that if we don't have a predator problem (there are coyotes and racoons in the area, but I'm hoping they won't come out during the day. At night the animals are locked up in predator-proof housing), I won't get a dog. We might eventually need a cat though, if the neighbours' doesn't chase them enough. Where we currently live there are lots of rats and they are too smart to be caught. We've tried poison, cages, rat traps, sticky things that catch them (these worked well until they figured them out, and would flip them over so they no longer stick), and the sound thingy that apparently they don't like. There are a lot of mice holes on the land we will build on.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 28, 2017)

We have a saying here...."Want" in one hand and "Wish" in the other and see which one gets the fullest the fastest. The reality of the situation is limited by your "Wants and Wishes". I respect your "Desire", but it just isn't even close to "Reality". I would be more concerned about the rats, and not the cats as far as the chickens are concerned....and you can bet your sweet "Bippy" that coons will prowl during daylight hours, along with possums. If ya are going to raise animals, ya better get a better "Grip" on the real "Reality"....or ya would be better off just reading books.....IMHO


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

CntryBoy777 said:


> We have a saying here...."Want" in one hand and "Wish" in the other and see which one gets the fullest the fastest. The reality of the situation is limited by your "Wants and Wishes". I respect your "Desire", but it just isn't even close to "Reality". I would be more concerned about the rats, and not the cats as far as the chickens are concerned....and you can bet your sweet "Bippy" that coons will prowl during daylight hours, along with possums. If ya are going to raise animals, ya better get a better "Grip" on the real "Reality"....or ya would be better off just reading books.....IMHO



Don't worry, I'm not deluded. If we have too many predators, we will do what we have to, but it's good to consider options. This year we have spent a lot of time at the land, and we've never seen any predator other than the cats. However, we have been told that the are coyotes from time to time. Two streets away, there is a lady who breeds horses and she does not have any guard animal. There is also someone else with chickens nearby who also does not have a guard animal. However, there is someone else two streets away in the opposite direction who has about 10 goats and a great pyrenees guard dog. He goes from laying down to up in barking very quickly if you step on their land. However, for some reason he isn't always there. I'm not sure where they put him, but sometimes the goats are loose on the property with no dog in site. 

Basically, if it's possible (and not too complicated) to have my ideal, great. If we need a dog and can't have the ideal diet, then oh well.


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## CntryBoy777 (Feb 28, 2017)

Well that's good to hear. You won't have to be concerned about cats with mature chickens. We have had outside cats for yrs, some with chickens and some without...we have had them that never saw a chicken before we got them...and we have never ever had one to do anything but stalk them. Sooner or later the chicken will peck the cat and that is the end of the face off. A rat will devistate a flock.


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

I adore one of the neighbour's cats. He will follow us everywhere, but the others run away as soon as they see us approaching. What issues did you have regarding rats and chickens (and how big where the rats?). We don't have the huge "sewer" rats here, they are maybe the 5inches x 2 inches, but it was very hard to keep them out of the quail's cages. They ended up killing one and biting another's toe (but we saved her). We had to put thicker hardware cloth to prevent them from entering. I have read about rats eating chicken's toes, but I was hoping it wasn't the case. We have had a rat enter the chicken's coop, but other than scaring them, it didn't do any damage.


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## Alibo (Feb 28, 2017)

A couple Muscovey ducks with the chickens will keep the rats out of the coop. Be warned that they are greedy and messy, but they are my favorite


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

Alibo said:


> A couple Muscovey ducks with the chickens will keep the rats out of the coop. Be warned that they are greedy and messy, but they are my favorite



Really? Do they eat them or just chase after them? And is this specific to muscovy ducks, or can any duck breed work?


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## Alibo (Feb 28, 2017)

Not sure of any ducks, but my Muscovies will chase and eat all size rats and mice....and chipmunk....and lizards, snakes....and unfortunately all of my new rabbit kits right after mama kindled. Needless to say the ducks are now kept away from the rabbit colony


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## JoyfulGoats (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm sorry for your rabbits! I am really glad to know that they eat the rats though. There is a lady about 15 mins away from where we will live who has a flock of them. I could hatch some eggs. How many do you have?


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## Sheepshape (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm veggie, have 2 cats and a dog. One cat is a 'rodent exterminator' the other much less so.

I keep BIG chickens (Brahmas etc) and use their eggs, not being happy with the egg industry either. My cats don't trouble the chickens (even the chicks)....on the contrary, the chickens chase/peck the cats at times. Occasional cockerels (hatched here) who can't get on with the 'main man' are despatched by OH and are fed to the animals.

The dog never has dog food, eating only meat/eggs/offal from relatively ethical sources( I'm not spending a fortune on him....our own eggs, offal from herds with ethical husbandry and meat which is being sold off cheaply at the end of the expiry date). Much the same for the cats, one of whom insists on eating her own rodent kills (mainly voles).

Crikey, I never realised that Muscovy ducks were so fierce! Sorry about the rabbit kits, Alibo. I guess chicks and smaller chickens wouldn't be safe around them either.

I guess we all have to do what we are mentally content with as regards food for animals. Whatever, the diet of our cats and dog certainly helps to keep them well. Older cat now 14 and still very active, dog 10 and very fit, and cat we had to have euthanised a couple of years back was 21.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

How much do you typically spend per month, Sheepshape? Did you contact the farm for the meat or did they advertise? Most ethically raised meat around here is quite expensive. Even beef liver is almost 7$/lb. The cheapest meat I've found is ground beef tripe, 3$/lb (which might be a mistake, because the bigger size bag is 6$/lb...). How much of their diet can be eggs?


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

Don't know how it is where you live, but in a lot of areas in the states they have a roadkill list one can be placed upon.  When the police or highway department are aware of a fresh roadkill deer they will call the people on the list to see if they want it.  

Some folks feed their dogs on this bounty and, no doubt, their cats too.  

As for the ethical dog and cat food, life is just way too short to overthink things that much.  The HUGE myriad of foods produced for our own consumption that lack any ethical roots is enough to contemplate and it can't be controlled either.  GMO, non-organic, imported from other countries, etc....it can drive a person crazy trying to put up roadblocks to all the unethical farming and growing practices out there.  Too, too many.  

My advice?  Do the best you can afford to do and then just let it go.  You'll live longer and happier that way.  

Around here we scavenge for road kill deer when possible, harvest our own deer and save scraps, offal and bones for the dogs, cats and chickens.  Chickens are raised here for our own consumption, with the scraps going to the dogs and cats.  The cats hunt but are also given some small amount of cat food per day in the colder months.  The dogs are able to catch some wild game even within their boundaries here, which they consume.  All animals are given garden produce grown here and fruit as well.  We also forage for fruit elsewhere to give them.  All get kitchen scraps too.  

But, in the end, they are given formulated feeds also.  It's the cheapest form of total nutrition I can give them and I don't feel bad about that.  If, after I've done all I can reasonably do about supplementing their diet naturally, then I also feed them cheap ol' dog or cat food, I don't feel a bit bad about it.  They gotta live and I do too.  There are little kids in other countries starving right now...I can't see spending extra money on my animals in the face of that.  And, yeah, I do send the extra money to those in need.


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## Sheepshape (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats....I really don't know and suspect that it varies quite a lot month on month.

Over here offal generally is pretty cheap as folk don't seem to like it much. My dog loves all offal, so that's a bonus. We have local farmers' markets where offal can be bought in bulk at bargain prices.Also my local supermarkets all sell off their produce at less than a quarter of the original price at the end of the day and , should I happen on meat (e.g. organic breasts of lamb), then I buy as many as they have.

As my dog is something of a 'dustbin' (i.e not at all picky about his food), he'll eat pretty much anything. He loves fish (again the end-of-the day reductions).

In the summer the dog has a couple of eggs a day....any way....boiled, fried, raw etc.

I suppose I am pretty picky about what I will eat ....I'm sure some would rate me as a hypocrite as I don't eat the lamb that I raise, but that's as may be.I only buy local organic milk, raise chickens for their eggs, grow a lot of our own vegetables etc.

I hope that I don't criticise others' lifestyle choices and aim to be a  practising vegetarian and not a preaching one.


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## Alibo (Mar 1, 2017)

Sheepshape said:


> Crikey, I never realised that Muscovy ducks were so fierce! Sorry about the rabbit kits, Alibo. I guess chicks and smaller chickens wouldn't be safe around them either.


Never had a problem with them bothering any fowl, even our little bantam chicks, when we had them. We had a muscovey hatch out chickens last year too. They can sit on almost 20 chicken eggs! I have eight right now but we harvested a few for Christmas. They have the taste and consistancy of Roast Beef!


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## Alibo (Mar 1, 2017)

Quail might be a nice inexpensive way to feed some cats ethically. I bet they would not even need to be de-feathered. Mine are fat on rats but they eat all of the animals they catch, down to everything but the tip of the nose


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## Baymule (Mar 1, 2017)

The reason that sometimes you don't see the Great Pyrenees is they go lay up in a cool spot and sleep. Mine sprawl out like they are doing dead dog imitations, but spring to life when they perceive danger. Danger=hawks, garbage trucks, stray dogs, motorcycles, cow monsters across the road, coyotes, neighbors talking in their own yards, (how DARE they) gunshots, our pigs, deer and just because.


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## Bruce (Mar 1, 2017)

X2 on @CntryBoy777's  daytime coon comment. 

Last summer we rescued a hen from a coon at 3AM behind the house. We thought she was already gone as fox food or something not having seen her for a week. Turns out she was brooding non fertile eggs in the bushes. I put her in a stall coop I was planning to use for integration so she wouldn't go broody in the "Fort Knox coop" nest boxes in the next stall. There was a 4" gap above the door. I would have put her in the broody buster but I had a sick hen in it, same non predator safe coop. I started locking the other girls in the FK coop a couple of hours before dusk to keep them safe from the coon, they were not happy about that practice since they free range during the day and put themselves to bed at dusk.

2 nights later the coon got into the lower part of the barn (through a woodchuck tunnel I believe) and took the head off a hen in a non secure coop. Now, due to my failing, she was dead. And as coons do, killed for nothing, it only ate the head and crop, leaving the rest of the bird for me to find in the morning. 

The same evening that it killed Fae I went to the coop to put food in the girls' coop feeder and get some scratch to entice them back to the barn. What do I see but the @#$%^ coon going into the FK coop (open people and auto chicken door) after the sick girl in her broody buster (I moved it in there right after I found the headless hen). It was WAY WAY WAY before dusk let alone dark.

And when I have lost hens to a fox, it was always late April (maybe they have their babies then but their normal food hasn't yet started its population explosion), WELL before dark and not more than 50' from a building. One right behind the small barn in 2014, one about 50' behind it the next year. That same evening one tried to snag a hen right next to the little barn straight out behind the house. She screamed, I ran out as did DD1, fox ran to the woods, Echo to the neighbors' house 100 yards away and across the road. We found her there 2 hours later. 

Point being "nighttime predators" do not kill your animals exclusively at night.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

Ok. Not playing devil's advocate here but we do not have a LGD. My goats and chickens are close to the house. Coyotes do not like to come close to the house. If we hear them too close we go out and shoot to scare them away. Electric fence top and bottom helps a lot. Keeping them inside at night helps a lot. 

I don't think everyone needs a LGD. If your animals are close to your house and/or in a secure area where there are not as many predators, you can stick with electric fencing and good house structures. A lone LGD is not always happy. 

We have rats here. When we raised cornish crosses they bit them, because they're too stupid to do anything but sit there. They have never gone after our heritage chickens or turkeys.


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## Bruce (Mar 1, 2017)

Baymule said:


> The reason that sometimes you don't see the Great Pyrenees is they go lay up in a cool spot and sleep. Mine sprawl out like they are doing dead dog imitations, but spring to life when they perceive danger. Danger=hawks, garbage trucks, stray dogs, motorcycles, cow monsters across the road, coyotes, neighbors talking in their own yards, (how DARE they) gunshots, our pigs, deer and just because.


Yep. The 3 weeks I had Merlin you would often think he was laying dead. Not in any comfortable looking "I'm asleep" position but sprawled out like he'd been shot, even in the snow. However, though not moving, his ears were listening. He could be up and running in 1/2 second if he perceived a danger. Unlike @Baymule's GPs, he never barked at vehicles, people walking by or when the neighbor's dog barked (which is often) or at those neighbors which while about 450' away we can sometimes hear them. In fact he very rarely barked during the day at all.


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> Wow! I guess I'll cross them off my list then. Not worth spending that much on an animal that might not behave. I guess I'll just stick to goats and sheep as my mammals.




  OK others have come deliciously close to saying what I am about to say, but I'm going to be the one who actually says it.  

Whoa, Nellie.  You are setting yourself up for epic fail gal, if you are coming into ag with the mindset quoted above!
As someone else quipped in this thread elsewhere, REALITY - it WILL bite you in the arse in the end….this is not something you do after reading two chapters in a book….

I strongly suggest you find your local county Ag Extension office and see what they have in terms of materials for furthering your education.  I suggest you get your hands on 
the numerous Ag/animal/livestock/homesteading magazines available out there in the big ol' world, and start reading them, or better yet, sign up for some ag classes, livestock management courses, etc.  And if you have experienced farming neighbors GO TALK TO THEM and ASK them for help and advice.

Animals/mammals/whhhhaaaaaaahhhht ever you are going to refer to them, are living beings, not objects of stone or made out of plastic…...  
They have minds.  They have feelings.  They bleed, they die, they get happy, mad, sad, etc.

And you're darned right they will often do something that is not what you perceive to be "right" or as you call it, "misbehaving"…..

You used that term "misbehave" which _really _put me off, and infers to me you have little if any patience or grasp of this overall.

Zero patience is a sure fire way to fail in agriculture, no matter if it's raising hogs, corn, beef, lamb or fill-in-the-blanks.

Based on what you have said here, you have a huge huge learning curve ahead of you.

Sheep and goats _can_ "misbehave"…beyond your wildest dreams!  

Finally I don't understand why this whole thread is in the Livestock Guardians section because it's about everything BUT livestock guardians….can the mods move it to a more appropriate place?


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## Bruce (Mar 1, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> Ok. Not playing devil's advocate here but we do not have a LGD. My goats and chickens are close to the house. Coyotes do not like to come close to the house. If we hear them too close we go out and shoot to scare them away. Electric fence top and bottom helps a lot. Keeping them inside at night helps a lot.
> 
> I don't think everyone needs a LGD. If your animals are close to your house and/or in a secure area where there are not as many predators, you can stick with electric fencing and good house structures. A lone LGD is not always happy.
> .


I agree. Unfortunately my wife turned out to be one of those people. All the fencing I installed was planned to keep the dog inside and for him to keep the predators out. Now I have 600 hundred of feet of fence with holes big enough for fox, coons, etc to get through. Had I planned for it to be a predator excluding fence I would have forked over for the much more expensive fencing with smaller holes. Now I have to run multiple low hot wire strands on the outside (already have it on the top) controlled by switches depending on the snow depth so they don't short to ground.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> OK others have come deliciously close to saying what I am about to say, but I'm going to be the one who actually says it.
> 
> Whoa, Nellie.  You are setting yourself up for epic fail gal, if you are coming into ag with the mindset quoted above!
> As someone else quipped in this thread elsewhere, REALITY - it WILL bite you in the arse in the end….this is not something you do after reading two chapters in a book….
> ...



Excuse me, but I find your reply incredibly rude. I have an extreme amount of patience for my animals to train them. Each time I get new animals, I spend hours every day with them, teaching them, and getting them used to me. Maybe the term "misbehave" was wrongly used, but I meant that since it is very hard to get mules around here and they are expensive, if many people have had troubles with them, then I'd rather not risk the lives of the animals I already have. The mules that I've seen for sale were all mules that the owner's said had some sort of personality issue. I would rather not have to try to undo all of that. If I had a young mule, I am sure that I would be able to raise them right, since as I said, I have a lot of patience for them. I don't appreaciate you telling me that they have feelings, etc., especially since this is precisely the reason that I raise my animals.

Before getting any animal, I do a TON of research. I spend hours and hours reading on them and learning everything I can. I have posted here to know how/if some people raise their own animals FOR THEIR LGDs, in order to take advantage of the expertise of the members here, so I don't see how this isn't about livestock guardians. All animals mentioned are guardian animals. Cats and ducks eat mice and rats. Rats have killed many of our quails, so they would guard them. Donkeys and mules prevent coyote attacks. And obviously, dogs guard as well. So how this thread is about everything but guardian animals?


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

Now, to reply to the others:

@Alibo I will definitely look into muscovies, they sound very interesting to have, thanks!

@Bruce and @CntryBoy777 , thanks for letting me know what happened to your animals. Once we move, I will talk to my neighbours to see if they have issues, and if so, then we will get an LGD. 

Bruce and @Baymule , since you have a great pyrenees, would you say that they are the best to have? They are pretty much all I see as LGDs.


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

We have coyotes close by, I hear them at night. They've yet to mess with my goats. Coyotes will not generally mess with a full grown horse, it's just too big and dangerous for them. Coyotes are more opportunistic and will prey on newborn calves and smaller livestock. I do keep the goats loose with the horses and they all hang out together though, so that may make the coyotes think twice about messing with the goats. 
The goats and horses are in the pasture right behind my house, so if there is a ruckus, I can hear it. That and if something does wake me up, I have a big spot light so doing a late night head count isn't hard, just count sets of reflecting eyes. Of course, I have a 12 gauge with me to take care of anything that is where it doesn't belong too, so that helps.

Quail aren't a bad idea. I just hatched out my first batch and they are cool! They grow fast, hatch easily, and in 6-8 weeks start laying so you can replenish your flock. I got 100 eggs off Ebay for $40, they sent 110, one was broken in transit, and one split so I had 108 in my incubator. I'm not sure how many exactly hatched, but I think I have around 70 babies right now. We'll keep back 20 or so and process the rest for our family, then rinse and repeat with new eggs. Side note, you can also eat their eggs, and while it takes 4 of their eggs to make 1 chicken egg, they are higher in protein and some other stuff.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

@Beekissed I didn't know that roadkill lists existed, I will check with the township if our town does.


@BrendaMNgri I am all for having a LGD, I've always loved dogs. However, if I had one, I would like to raise it with ethically raised meat. This is not being unrealistic, it's idealistic. I am not saying "if I need an LGD, I won't get one because of the food source", I am saying that if we don't have issues with predators (which is possible since only one house in the area has an LGD, my grandparents have also had a small farm for years without an LGD), then that would need to be possible for me to get one. If we find that there are lots of predators, we will get a dog regardless of the food source. I am simply trying to get all the information and gain experience from people who have done this.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

Quails could indeed be a good idea! The need less space, so maybe it could be doable. We've had quails for a while, but only a small production. Would you guys have an idea of how many I would need to feed a dog?

@AClark , are your animals loose even at night?


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

Yeah everybody is out loose in the pasture all night, 2 big Nubian goats, 1 very young pygmy goat, and 3 horses.

ETA, they have a 3 sided shed with 8 rabbits in it and nothing has messed with the rabbits either. The only thing we've had slinking around was a neighbors dog, who hasn't come back after I cranked a round in it's general direction (didn't hit it, but it got the hint).


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> @Beekissed I didn't know that roadkill lists existed, I will check with the township if our town does.
> 
> 
> @BrendaMNgri I am all for having a LGD, I've always loved dogs. However, if I had one, I would like to raise it with ethically raised meat. This is not being unrealistic, it's idealistic. I am not saying "if I need an LGD, I won't get one because of the food source", I am saying that if we don't have issues with predators (which is possible since only one house in the area has an LGD, my grandparents have also had a small farm for years without an LGD), then that would need to be possible for me to get one. If we find that there are lots of predators, we will get a dog regardless of the food source. I am simply trying to get all the information and gain experience from people who have done this.



I admire your quest for information!  Far too many people rush into obtaining animals without due diligence on research and study on if it's feasible for them and fits into their ideals on raising livestock and other types of animals.  Most don't even have shelter or proper fences prepared when they get an animal, so I'm always pleased to see someone asking the important questions before taking on new animals.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

AClark said:


> View attachment 28608 Yeah everybody is out loose in the pasture all night, 2 big Nubian goats, 1 very young pygmy goat, and 3 horses.
> 
> ETA, they have a 3 sided shed with 8 rabbits in it and nothing has messed with the rabbits either. The only thing we've had slinking around was a neighbors dog, who hasn't come back after I cranked a round in it's general direction (didn't hit it, but it got the hint).



Your pygmy goat is very cute! I'm glad your horses help deter predators.



Beekissed said:


> I admire your quest for information!  Far too many people rush into obtaining animals without due diligence on research and study on if it's feasible for them and fits into their ideals on raising livestock and other types of animals.  Most don't even have shelter or proper fences prepared when they get an animal, so I'm always pleased to see someone asking the important questions before taking on new animals.



Thank you!  This is exactly why I started this thread, to have the information before I am forced to make a choice (if all our animals start disappearing). This summer, I spent almost all my time researching goats, now I'm researching dogs. My family doesn't want any except as a last option to protect the animals, so I need all the information I can get. Our neighbours all have tons of dogs (and no livestock). Maybe I can borrow one during the day  (don't worry, I know that's not feasable since they aren't trained to guard livestock. They would view it as a personal buffet . Thankfully they are never left to roam free without their owners.)

I found these adorable great pyrenees puppies for sale about an hour away. I'll keep the breeders number since they raise them with sheep since birth.





I guess there is no point continuing discussing the feasability of raising my own meat for them, since although it's technically possible, I think it will be more complicated than it's worth. If I get a dog, I'll do as others have mentioned - feed extras from our meat, but buy dog food.

Btw, for those who buy regular dog food, how much do you spend per month (and what breed do you have)?


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

I have an Anatolian/Maremma/GP mix and a Lab/Border Collie mix and I spend about $14 a month on those two dogs in dog food.  I also buy huge basted bones in the months they don't have deer bones, which I don't really count as food but as good tooth maintenance, so add another $10 to that for dental maintenance in some months.  

I'm going to suggest another search for your farming interests....one of my favorite livestock to ever have~Katahdin sheep!  Once you have some, you'll wonder where they've been all your life.    I don't mind peddling their wonderful attributes to other potential addicts!  

http://www.katahdins.org/


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

$14? I spend $50/month on two 50 lb house dogs...


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> $14? I spend $50/month on two 50 lb house dogs...



Are they chihuahuas?   

Yep...they only consume around 55 lbs of feed per month, sometimes much less if it's hunting/butchering season.  I can get a 40# bag of dog food for  $10.99 here at Rural King.  Since they aren't highly active dogs, I can get by feeding 18% protein for most of the year.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

That's much less than I was expecting! I had asked some friends who had dogs, and they were spending around 50$ a month for larger dogs, like NH homesteader seems to spend (if you added the two dogs into one). If I was able to find dog food that cheap, it would be doable.

I was also wondering, do LGD's get lonely? I know most are bred to be independent, but still. I feel kinda bad about leaving them outside all the time, but wouldn't be able to bring them in.


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> That's much less than I was expecting! I had asked some friends who had dogs, and they were spending around 50$ a month for larger dogs, like NH homesteader seems to spend (if you added the two dogs into one). If I was able to find dog food that cheap, it would be doable.
> 
> I was also wondering, do LGD's get lonely? I know most are bred to be independent, but still. I feel kinda bad about leaving them outside all the time, but wouldn't be able to bring them in.



They tend to bond with their flocks if you are using them for ruminants.  They also enjoy companionship of their own species...I think it increases their life span if they have their own species for socialization and play.  

They enjoy our company immensely, but at the end of the day, they enjoy being outdoors much, much more, especially if they have a job to do.  I feel that is true for all animals, if they are given a choice from birth.  

If you raise any dog outdoors from a pup and one day bring him in the house when he's a bit older, you'd soon see him wanting to get back out there.  It's their natural environment and pretty much all creatures thrive better in their natural environment.  

It's only us silly humans that think that dogs are lonely for us and want to live in our big ol' box all their lives.  Sure, they like to come in and be a part of our lives, but if given a choice they are built for outdoors and they thrive there.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

That's what my grandparents said as well. They used to have 5 large dogs before I was born. I guess I'm just a softie that way. I feel bad about not bringing them in at night.

Lol, my animals have me wrapped around their fingers. Even my pet rabbit has access to our yard almost everyday (we rabbit-proofed as much as we could our fence for him).

I just realized that I forgot to reply to your mention of the sheep, @Beekissed . I am glad to hear from someone else that they are great! I really want to get some maybe next year for meat (but the breeding stock will be "productive pets").

Thank you for all the information you guys have given me! I'll almost certainly get muscovy ducks @Alibo , eventually sheep, and definitely consider the dogs. I'll keep my eyes and ears peeled for predators during the day at first, and if we have issues, we'll get the dog. I'm too attached to my animals for them to get killed (and not even eaten. If at least the racoons needed them for food, it wouldn't be as bad. We had a cat kill a bunch of quails and just leave them there. We don't even know how since the cage was still locked and closed when we got there).

However, as I'm writing this, I'm guessing that if I needed a dog right away, it would need to be an adult? How long does it take for a puppy to be useful?


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## AClark (Mar 1, 2017)

I only have 1 dog, an Australian Cattle Dog. He's worth his weight (40 lbs) in gold though. I do feed conventional dog food, and it takes him more than a month to scarf down a 40# bag of it. I do not supplement with meat from the farm since I don't have any yet. I lost my last 2 litters of rabbits to the cold weather, and the quail just hatched. However, he will get bones and whatnot from processing rabbits and quail both. 
He's not quite a year old and I love that I didn't really have to teach him to herd, he just does it automatically. Really the only thing that we've had to teach him is to stop herding when told, because he does get over-zealous. 

Definitely not a livestock guardian breed, but very good if you want something that will alert you, and he will chase off other dogs if I let him. I don't know how he'd fare with coyotes, as he sleeps in the house at night, but he's also an excellent guard dog for the people in my home.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

I think it depends on the dog... Supposedly Spanish Alanos are good outdoor dogs that can withstand heat and cold and aren't good indoor dogs... Tell that to the one sleeping on the couch right now. I think dogs get lonely, but it also depends on the dog. Some are more independent than others.

I spend more on dog food because cheap dog food doesn't agree with my chow mix. I spend less than I used to now that my Alano is 2 1/2 and not growing much any more.

Anyway I would say you need to survey the area to see if you need a LGD. There are threads on here (some I have started even) about LGD vs. Farm dog, and how to determine if you need one or the other. In my current situation I'm good with my farm/house dogs. They are inside at night but I've had goats for 3 years with no issues. Only lost chickens when they didn't go in the coop at night.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

I didn't know there was a difference. I did some reading after seeing your comment, and I'm pretty sure then that I actually want a farm dog. If I'm not misunderstanding - LGDs = stay with animals all the time, protect only animals, and not necessarily super friendly (like for cuddles and stuff)

Farm dog = dog that stays with animals, protects them while he's there, but also comes occasionally for pets and protects humans when they are outside.

Am I right?

Because if I got a dog, I would want one that I can pet and hug occasionally (but always outside), and would sometimes follow me when I'm outside, especially at night (I hate walking outside in the dark), but would want him or her to protect the animals when we aren't outside.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

I looked at dog food prices, and found some for adult dogs at what would end up to be 20$/month. It says "for dogs under a moderate work regime". Would this be moderate? I would think so since they aren't constantly running after predators.


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> and not necessarily super friendly (like for cuddles and stuff)


I have two LGD's - an Anatolian Shepherd and a Pyrenees - and they are both big ol' cuddle bugs.  But, we raised them with affection - don't believe in tossing them out in the field and ignoring them.    Both of them 'take care of me' too when I'm in the pasture after/before dark.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I have two LGD's - an Anatolian Shepherd and a Pyrenees - and they are both big ol' cuddle bugs.  But, we raised them with affection - don't believe in tossing them out in the field and ignoring them.



Haha, that's what I thought too, which is why I didn't think there was an extra type, I just thought guarding or herding. But when I was reading (though I admit it's far from enough), I saw some people online mention that they barely handle their dogs. I want to be able to handle them, but it will all be done outdoors, and they could sleep with the goats. Out of both breeds that you have, do they have different benefits or is it just a matter of preference?


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

You really should read through the LGD forums on here. @Southern by choice has a TON of information, pictures, etc. She also cuddles her LGD's and occasionally you'll spot one on her couch


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 1, 2017)

There are definitely differences in their styles - but no difference in their affection!  The Pyr I have is more of a "watcher" with the goats.  She likes to be up high and gaze out at her kingdom.  She's always been that way.  She takes more of a stand back and (literally) watch attitude.  But - when/if something needs her attention she is always right there taking care of business.

The Anatolian is more "hands on".  He likes to be right in the middle of the goats.  If I'm doing something with a goat he's always in the way...he will try to lick wormer or supplements right out of their mouth.  He wants to eat with them and guards them while they are eating so the horses don't snatch their food.  He goes out to the pasture with them and will check the fence lines to make sure nothing is lurking.  He may or may not stay with them, but he goes out and checks on them frequently - especially if one of the goats makes any sort of distressing sound.

As far as their level of affection - Maddie the Pyr simply wants to lay her head in your lap and let you adore her, and rub her and squeeze her and pet her.  But, she doesn't let it get in the way of doing her job. 

Cowboy, the Anatolian, will run up for rubs and pets then he'll run off and do something, five minutes later the cycle starts again.


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 1, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> You really should read through the LGD forums on here. @Southern by choice has a TON of information


Absolutely - she's a wealth of information and is happy to share!

Also I have a thread about Cowboy.  It's mostly about his antics as a pup, but I think it's a pretty good read, lol.  I need to update it with a little story about an incident this week.

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/cowboy-lost-his-bestie.33592/page-28#post-465647


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> You really should read through the LGD forums on here. @Southern by choice has a TON of information, pictures, etc. She also cuddles her LGD's and occasionally you'll spot one on her couch



I will, thanks! I've started a bit, but there is a ton of information to go through. Lots of reading ahead of me!



frustratedearthmother said:


> There are definitely differences in their styles - but no difference in their affection!  The Pyr I have is more of a "watcher" with the goats.  She likes to be up high and gaze out at her kingdom.  She's always been that way.  She takes more of a stand back and (literally) watch attitude.  But - when/if something needs her attention she is always right there taking care of business.
> 
> The Anatolian is more "hands on".  He likes to be right in the middle of the goats.  If I'm doing something with a goat he's always in the way...he will try to lick wormer or supplements right out of their mouth.  He wants to eat with them and guards them while they are eating so the horses don't snatch their food.  He goes out to the pasture with them and will check the fence lines to make sure nothing is lurking.  He may or may not stay with them, but he goes out and checks on them frequently - especially if one of the goats makes any sort of distressing sound.
> 
> ...



You're dogs sound great! That is pretty much the level of affection I would want. Probably somewhere in between the personalities of your dogs. I do love the fluffy look of great pyrenees, but my grandparents have had 2 (at different times) that were scared of everything and one ended up running away a few days after they got her, only to be found years later (they searched a ton, but never found her. Someone a few streets away took her in). I've never seen those dogs, it was long before I was born, but is this an exceptional case or are they prone to that?

I will check out your thread and read the information @Southern by choice has


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## Beekissed (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> I didn't know there was a difference. I did some reading after seeing your comment, and I'm pretty sure then that I actually want a farm dog. If I'm not misunderstanding - LGDs = stay with animals all the time, protect only animals, and not necessarily super friendly (like for cuddles and stuff)
> 
> Farm dog = dog that stays with animals, protects them while he's there, but also comes occasionally for pets and protects humans when they are outside.
> 
> ...



LGDs are uber friendly when socialized properly.  Almost TOO friendly at times...mine want to be in my lap when I'm near.  I've never met an unfriendly GP yet, though the mother of this pup I have now was none too friendly to strangers or even to her owners.  She was Anatolian/Maremma and she was in working mode when I saw her...very much protecting her flock from strangers and dangers.  Therein lies the primary difference between farm dogs and LGDs...the LGDs will not voluntarily leave their flocks unguarded to get affection from all and sundry like a farm dog will.  

Farm dogs don't really stay with the animals like a LGD will,  but will protect the farm from predators and trespassers if allowed to live out there all the time and in their area.  They can bond with their livestock in many ways but won't often live out in the fields with them independently and on their own instincts.  They tend to see the humans as their pack/flock rather than the flock and tend to guard a territory rather than a flock.    

LGDs will stay with their flocks if trained properly...it's more in their instinct to bond with and stay with their four legged flocks than it is with their human pack if they are given the proper exposure and training with the livestock.  They will do this instinctively more than other types and breeds of dogs, so their training is usually on good behavior around the young stock and living with their flocks.  Most don't tend to bond with their chicken flocks like they do with ruminants but they do mind the chickens and will respond to threats there if that is their place to guard.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

Beekissed said:


> LGDs are uber friendly when socialized properly.  Almost TOO friendly at times...mine want to be in my lap when I'm near.  I've never met an unfriendly GP yet, though the mother of this pup I have now was none too friendly to strangers or even to her owners.  She was Anatolian/Maremma and she was in working mode when I saw her...very much protecting her flock from strangers and dangers.  Therein lies the primary difference between farm dogs and LGDs...the LGDs will not voluntarily leave their flocks unguarded to get affection from all and sundry like a farm dog will.
> 
> Farm dogs don't really stay with the animals like a LGD will,  but will protect the farm from predators and trespassers if allowed to live out there all the time and in their area.  They can bond with their livestock in many ways but won't often live out in the fields with them independently and on their own instincts.  They tend to see the humans as their pack/flock rather than the flock and tend to guard a territory rather than a flock.
> 
> LGDs will stay with their flocks if trained properly...it's more in their instinct to bond with and stay with their four legged flocks than it is with their human pack if they are given the proper exposure and training with the livestock.  They will do this instinctively more than other types and breeds of dogs, so their training is usually on good behavior around the young stock and living with their flocks.  Most don't tend to bond with their chicken flocks like they do with ruminants but they do mind the chickens and will respond to threats there if that is their place to guard.



So basically I do indeed want a LGD, not a farm dog, right? Since I would want them with the other animals 23.5/7 (not quite 24/7, lol).

I just realized - I have the contact information of the person who has goats near us! They have a great pyrenees, so I will email them to ask about their predator situation.


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## Bruce (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> Bruce and @Baymule , since you have a great pyrenees, would you say that they are the best to have? They are pretty much all I see as LGDs.


There are several common LGD breeds (such as GP, Maremma, Anatolian) and other less common though you may not have a breeder of a specific one nearby. And not everyone offering LGD breed puppies should be doing it, be very selective on where you get one (should you do so).

I had Merlin for only 3 weeks, my wife couldn't tune him out when he was working at night. From my perspective he was the perfect dog for my needs. 15 months old and raised working with sheep, always been around chickens. I don't believe he ever barked at anything that didn't need to be warned off. Well OK, I don't mind the deer being in the field beyond the fenced area but some people do  Though with only 2 alpacas and a dozen chickens in a fenced acre which includes a pond he didn't have a lot to guard and yes I think he was bored during the day. He had 4 other dogs at his prior (and again current) home so I think he really would have liked having another dog around. Had I been able to keep him my plan was to get a female pup this spring for him to train and for company.

The only problem I had was with the chickens. They are bird brains don't you know and feared the big hairy critter. Even after I took him in the coop and he just looked around and smelled then walked out. If they were out in the run (barn alley) and he came in they would scatter to the winds and he would run with them. I really don't think he was chasing them but they did. Playing "where are my chickens" (he never told me) got old. They would bury themselves deep in some crevice or whatnot (in or a good distance from the barn) and not answer when I called, even with a can of scratch. They never came out of the coop when he was in the barn so I felt bad for them about that. Six were 4.5 years old, six were 1.5 years old and they have never known a time when they couldn't come and go from the coop and barn to outside the barn except at night and they put themselves there by choice. But they jailed themselves. What I needed him to learn was that the threat the girls were running from was HIM and just stay still. They'll freak and run if I move too fast or shake something near them but as soon as I stop they look around and say "back to your regularly scheduled programming girls, it's just the big funny looking chicken". I'm sure they would have eventually figured out Merlin wasn't going to eat them.



JoyfulGoats said:


> I was also wondering, do LGD's get lonely? I know most are bred to be independent, but still. I feel kinda bad about leaving them outside all the time, but wouldn't be able to bring them in.


There are many breeds of LGD all with their own traits but they are all designed to be outside in weather we think is unbearable, especially the double coated breeds (which may be all of them??). I think one thing you will hear that is common to them all is that they are "independent thinkers" and generally instinctively know that they are to guard animals and property. You don't tell an LGD to go out and guard. You don't teach them to bark at threats (their primary guarding method, attacking is a last resort) to tell them "I am BIG, stay away". You don't tell them "Go out to the north pasture and check for predators", they will go there if they think there is a reason to do so. You tell a trained herding dog to go round up the sheep/goats, etc and they generally need to have been trained how to do that. With LGDs (as I understand it) you only need to train them when they are young that they aren't to play with the lambs and kids and chickens. Young dogs like to play and when something runs, it must be play time!

I seriously doubt Merlin would have wanted to be in the house at night. When he was not perceiving a threat he would sleep in the barn alley opposite the chicken coop or outside even when it was snowing. Those dogs have a coat that just doesn't quit, the snow doesn't melt off them any more than it does off the alpacas. The 2 alpacas have the north end of the lower part of the barn and an "always open" door so Merlin could be outside in seconds if he heard anything he didn't like. Shortly before I gave him back I was out at night with him (so I could talk to him and he would stop barking if he was 'kinda sorta' warning as opposed to "there is something bad out there!!") so my wife could sleep. One night about 3 AM he had been "dead" on the alley floor for a couple of hours then sprang to life and was at the fence within 10 seconds. His path was ~30' north through the alley including through a wooden gate that separates the alpacas from the rest of the lower barn (and through the 2 alpacas who choose to sleep in the alley rather than the stall), 15' east, out the alpacas' door and 150' to the west fence line. Whatever it was, he heard it and didn't like it. It wasn't coyotes, I would have heard them (and had when he and I were out earlier that same night, 3 packs at various distances). I can tell you it took me a LOT longer to get out to the fence as "back up dog".

My suspicion is that he would have been happy to hang around with people in the house during the day when the predator threat is pretty much nonexistent (here anyway) as long as he could come and go as he felt the need. That was the "farm dog" aspect of this particular dog. He surely isn't a "don't care about people where is my herd?" LGD. And, again to my mind, is what made him the nearly perfect dog for me.

SBC will tell you that LGDs SHOULDN'T just be tossed out in a field and never receive any human attention. Most of us aren't running a thousand sheep on land so large we only see some of it every few weeks and rely on the dogs to protect all that time without someone around   When they are working, they are working and you can give them some ear scrubbing (apparently all GPs love this) when you go in the field and then go about your business. They SHOULD be socialized so that, for example, you can take them to the vet, or the vet can come on the farm. But you aren't going to take them to the dog park to play with other dogs, to the family's annual picnic, etc; they stay on the farm. You can bring them out of their field for "family time", they will let you know if they need to be back in the field. Heck, they may go back when you aren't looking. As I said, if they perceive a threat, they are a rocket going to where they think there is danger. From "dead on the ground" to "gone" in the blink of an eye. Watching their normal "I'm working by laying down 'asleep'" level of activity you wouldn't guess they can move that fast. From what I have read they run the gamut. Some REALLY don't want to leave their flock, ever. Others will happily come out for plenty of "recess" time. Some LGD individuals are more on the "farm dog" side and some are more on the "leave me to my flock" side. And the same can be said of some non LGD breeds that people have as "farm dogs". In the end, if you have good fences, most any good "farm dog" will guard your animals whether it bonds with them or not simply because they are guarding their territory and the animals happen to be part of that area. And if you DON'T have good fences, you will likely find your LGD guarding a lot more territory than you own. So you need good fences either way 



JoyfulGoats said:


> That's what my grandparents said as well. They used to have 5 large dogs before I was born. I guess I'm just a softie that way. I feel bad about not bringing them in at night.


You would feel bad if you trapped the poor dog in the house at night (being kind and all) and it wanted to be outside guarding its charges and property though, right?  Great way to make the dog neurotic. I think you really need to see just how "weather-proof" these dogs are to understand that they DON'T need to be inside. Merlin could have been in the barn 24x7 (and the alpacas pretty much are when the weather is foul as are the hens) if he wanted to but it was not uncommon to see him laying by the gate up toward the house laying in snow, snow falling on him. Go to the gate and he would get up looking for ear scrubs. Great location to warm your hands, nothing but dry and warm down inside that layer of fur.



JoyfulGoats said:


> I didn't know there was a difference. I did some reading after seeing your comment, and I'm pretty sure then that I actually want a farm dog. If I'm not misunderstanding - LGDs = stay with animals all the time, protect only animals, and not necessarily super friendly (like for cuddles and stuff)
> 
> Farm dog = dog that stays with animals, protects them while he's there, but also comes occasionally for pets and protects humans when they are outside.
> 
> ...



See above 

I don't think farm dog = "stays with animals" but "guards the territory and everything on it" by virtue of keeping everything else out. It might also specifically guard it's humans, but not necessarily specifically the flock. An LGD will guard its people as well as its animals AND its territory. In the absence of the owner, nothing gets in that the LGD doesn't want in. You'll find posts here that say something like "if my LGD is suspicious of someone that comes to the property, *I* am suspicious of them, the dog knows". I think one "general" difference is the bonding between an LGD and its individual flock members. If one is lambing/kidding, the LGD might very well want to be RIGHT there protecting whereas a "farm dog" isn't necessarily wired to do that. If there is a threat, a "farm dog" might go after it because it is trying to enter the property whereas the LGD, especially the watcher, will go TO the flock and guard from close by, possibly herding them to a safer area. Barking/growling rather than chasing is the LGD's MO.

I don't think I've seen a post on BYH that said "my LGD wants no attention from me". I think all of them will come for some attention, they don't just grudgingly put up with it but really enjoy it. If you come across a dog that is antisocial even with its owners, maybe it was one that WAS tossed into a field as a pup and ignored.

I think one needs an LGD vs a "farm dog" when they have a lot of animals and a lot of acreage/pastures and a lot of predators and the animals aren't brought in, or at least close to, the barn at night. You really want at least 2, one a watcher that stays with the flock and a patroller that will be out at the fence line checking for/warning off threats. And if you have herds in different pastures, you need more dogs unless the pastures aren't too big AND the dogs can go between them at will AND the predator load isn't too high.

Now you must understand that I am about as far from being an expert on LGDs as one can get, my knowledge is based on:

3 weeks of having and observing ONE that was already a working dog pretty much past his "youthful indiscretions" when I got him
research
following (with great interest) the experiences of those that do have LGDs
talking to SBC
etc
not years of experience with them.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 1, 2017)

Good reply Bruce!


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## Baymule (Mar 1, 2017)

I have 2 Great Pyrenees and they are the only LGD's I have ever had. So I can't really tell you how they compare to other breeds. But I can tell you that they are both good dogs. LGD's are a little quirky, they are not your regular dog. Yes, they want to please you, but not at the expense of their independence. They won't fetch a stick or a ball for you, but I have a farm dog, black Lab/Great Dane mix for that and his sidekick, a female Australian shepherd. They are both house/farm dogs. LOL

There are lots of threads here about LGD's. Read them all. There is a wealth of information in this forum, so you sure came to the right place to do your research and homework.

Here's my dogs. I got them before I got sheep....it just kinda happened that way. I would definitely tell you to have your sheep or goats before getting a dog, it would make training much easier. LOL

https://www.backyardherds.com/threa...heep-goats-or-chase-bears-hawk-post-26.23771/

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/new-pyrenees-puppy.30587/

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/trip-is-a-sheep-guardian.32758/

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/paris-has-begun-lamb-training.33844/


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

Thank you both for taking the time to write such long replies!

@Bruce , I get what you mean about the chickens running away. I had my rabbit out with them, and it took maybe 4 months for them to accept him (an 8lb vegan animal). They would run away like crazy at first, then peck him, then finally accepted him. If you decided to get another dog, they will most likely calm down, but it might take a while.

 You convinced me not to feel bad about leaving them out. I never thought a dog would choose to sleep in the snow . I've heard a few bad stories from people who have purchased lgd breeds from people who didn't raise them as such, so I'll definitely ask them a ton of questions and observe the dogs. I quickly looked online and saw a few pyrenees breeders within 2 hours driving distance of me, and found a few maremma breeders as well, but no anatolian dogs. However, it's not really the birthing season at the moment. There are usually more puppy ads in the spring or summer.

@Baymule I'm not interested in a dog that will fetch. The level of affection/playing is basically like what you would get from a goat. Just sitting near me to be pet, putting their head on my lap, etc. I would like them to come when called though and trust me. As in, not freak out if I'm relaxed about whatever is going on. I will also be planning to leave the animals out of the fence when we are home, so I would need the dog to stay on our property. I've always hated that people leave their dogs going everywhere, so I don't want to do that (just yesterday I got chased through the park by a dog with no owner in sight. Thankfully it was a medium sized dog instead of a larger one, but still. I ended up saying a firm NO and it ran away ). 

Btw, I assume with LGDs, you don't take them on walks, right? They exercise by themselves? I remember reading a long time ago that dogs need walks for mental stimulation, but I don't think they would like leaving their flock. I'll go read your threads tomorrow, thanks.

Also, from what I've seen around my area, people only sell puppies. If once I have my animals I see that I need a dog, what do I do? A puppy won't exactly scare a coyote, so how long does it take for them to be big enough to be intimidating? I saw on a thread, I think it was @frustratedearthmother 's dog? I can't remember, it was an anatolian, who was huge a 2 months! I expected the dog to be much smaller. 

I have zero experience with dogs of my own. Never had any, but everyone else's dogs love me, so I'll take that as a good sign.


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## Baymule (Mar 1, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> @Baymule  I will also be planning to leave the animals out of the fence when we are home, so I would need the dog to stay on our property.



Do I read this that you will let your animals out of a fenced area and your outer parameter is not fenced? Great Pyrenees own the land they stand on. It is THEIRS. They also own the land they see. It is THEIRS. If they see it, they own it. If they own it, they WILL go there. A good fence is paramount in keeping a LGD of any breed contained. So if you need the dog to stay on your property, fence it and fence it with a darn good fence.

My dog Trip will climb the fence to get from the sheep pasture to the yard area. He has never climbed the fence to get out and off the farm, but if he decided he wanted to, he could. If the front gate is left open, he goes through it. I am fanatical about keeping our gate CLOSED.

If I have gotten this wrong, please accept my apology. If I have gotten this right, I do not mean to irritate or hurt your feelings, but merely to explain why you must have a good fence.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

Don't worry, I'm not offended. It's better to know now then after my dog is 5km away! That is what I was planning to do with the animals, but we won't if we get a dog then. Our animals fence will be holes 2"x4", 5 feet high. Would this be enough?


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## Baymule (Mar 1, 2017)

Yes, that would be good wire. We used the 2"x4" wire that is 4 feet high. I like it because it even keeps the chickens in.  How many acres do you have?


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 1, 2017)

I got the 5' on sale for the price of the 4', so I jumped on the offer. We have 8 acres, but will start by fencing off only about 80x120ft. It might be a bit longer, but we don't know by how much. We are hoping to find some wood pallets to use along the back of the fence (as to not block the view of the animals), to be able to use as much of the fencing as possible.


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## Baymule (Mar 2, 2017)

We have 8 acres too. Fencing is a lot of work! For setting your corner posts, you might want to get an auger, we got ours from Harbor Freight.

http://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-gasoline-auger-powerhead-with-6-in-bit-63022.html


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## Beekissed (Mar 2, 2017)

Some folks will augment their woven fencing with electric at the top, as these LGDs are very adept at getting over and under fencing if they feel they need to...and they like to guard a mile square of territory, so it's quite often they feel they need to.  You'll want to keep them at home...GPs are especially prone to go walk about. 

Anatolians are supposedly more prone to stay right near the flock...they are often used in places where fences don't exist and are reliable enough to stay with the flocks.   I'm not sure about Maremmas, I've not researched them as much. 

My LGD is used more in a farm dog capacity, as he only has chickens to guard and is contained via the use of a wireless fence to a certain area.  He is also leash trained, which was laughably easy...he came naturally calm and eager to please, and is more attuned to seeing humans as his pack/flock, which is natural considering he doesn't have a real flock to guard and we all live close to one another.   He works with a non LGD breed mix and they are quite compatible, both are very quiet dogs and rarely ever bark unless something real big is out there....mostly everything real big(coyote, bear, bobcat) has learned to avoid this meadow now but they do occasionally get to do the whole guard thing around the meadow. 


Mostly his job could be and has been done by a farm dog in the past, but I needed his breed tendency to be dog aggressive, which represents one of our larger predators here and my farm dog was much too friendly towards them~Jake was fine on coyote, bear and cat but a stray dog wander in and he wanted to be friends.  So far Ben has done his job in that regard, which gives me great peace of mind. 

If you have flocks that are close up to the residence, are only in pasture of a few acres there, and you don't have heavy predator presence at your place, then you could probably do with a farm dog.  If you have flocks that are going to be out in the pasture that is up to 3 acres or more, and you have coyote packs in your area, you'll need a LGD.

My LGD likes to sleep out in all weathers also...they have a heavy double coat of fur that makes it easy for them to live with sheep, as their coat is much like a sheep's...heavy guard hairs on the outside, fine and dense on the inside...practically impermeable to all weather, no matter how long they are out there they never get soaked to the skin.


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## Bruce (Mar 2, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> I got the 5' on sale for the price of the 4', so I jumped on the offer. We have 8 acres, but will start by fencing off only about 80x120ft. It might be a bit longer, but we don't know by how much. We are hoping to find some wood pallets to use along the back of the fence (as to not block the view of the animals), to be able to use as much of the fencing as possible.


Woven not welded wire I hope.

Don't even think about getting an LGD when the fenced area is only 80x120. I fenced 1 acre before I took Merlin, 4' high with the posts at 5' high. Hotwire at 5' and a ground wire at 4.5' (*). The area is big enough for the 2 alpacas but Merlin would have been much happier if I had fenced the entire 5 acres of field but no time for that. Lots of rocks, every wood post was a struggle. It took me weeks to fence what I did. 

People take dogs for walks for mental stimulation when they are trapped in the house all day and maybe have a small yard. If your 8 acres is fenced to keep the LGD in, it doesn't need to go for walks on a leash  I did take Merlin for a walk, on leash, in the woods the day before I returned him. He had never been formally leash trained (like heeling and sitting when you stop etc ) but the only problem I had was he didn't understand that a 6' 2" human doesn't fit under things like a log 2' off the ground 

My chickens are deathly afraid of the wild rabbits as you can see: 


 

* in really dry places or where the ground freezes, the ground does not conduct well so you carry the ground wire near the hot so even when the ground can't conduct, they will hit both the hot and ground wires trying to go over the top


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 2, 2017)

I like extra butter on my popcorn, by the way guys……who's hoarding it this morning?


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 2, 2017)

It is woven, but is welded really that terrible? As in, if I only had goats, would welded work? The stores here almost only sell welded. Our 8 acres are almost all pasture. There is maybe 0.5 acres of wooded area. I just got a reply from the lady near us with the goats and LGD. The dog is actually a Komondor (I had only seen it quickly while driving from far away). She says that she doesn't think an LGD would be necessary if the animals are locked up during the day. They never had anything other than hawks during the day, even before getting the dog. The animals are free to roam, including the dog. She says that he will just climb the 5' fence if she tries to keep him in, so she just lets them loose. She says they stay close to the house, but occasionally go on the neighbour's property, who doesn't mind. They have 10 acres. Is it possible to train the LGD to stay on our property if we wanted the animals to have access to the 8 acres without fencing it all?

@Bruce , my chickens would have been out of there in seconds, screaming


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## NH homesteader (Mar 2, 2017)

I wouldn't rely on that, and depending on where you live, if your dog is on someone else's property and they feel it's threatening their animals, they have a right to shoot it. And if they provoke your dog and end up being bitten (god forbid) they can sue you for every penny you have. So no, not a risk I would take.

I have welded. It's awful. I'm donating it to my chickens and working on getting better fencing for the goats.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 2, 2017)

Yea, I agree. I'd rather the dog be femced. I guess we will see how it goes when we move. What are your issues with the welded? I've seem a lot of people who have it and are fine, and a lot who have issues. Unfortunately, the only farm store in are area almost exclusively sells welded. This whole year, they had it in stock twice (I get their emails everyday with the flyers and specials). Also, it's about double the cost of welded. We have some woven and some welded fence, so I'm hoping it will work. I guess if there was an electric wire around it, it would prevent the goats from rubbing on it. 

Our township has strange rules regarding electric fencing though. They say you only can if it's within another fence, because they don't want people accidentally getting hurt. I called to ask if we can use electric on the outside or by itself if the fence is well within the property line (so it's illegal for them to be there in the first place), and they gave vague answers "yea...maybe...I don't know..., perhaps". 

Also, @Baymule , sorry, I forgot to reply to you. Thanks for reminding me about the auger. It would make things much easier, for sure. I want to try and see if there is anyone I can rent one from, since it's not something we would regularly use. I'm hoping I will find somewhere, but otherwise we will probably buy one. We have a manual post pounder, but it only works for t-posts, not for the big wooden posts.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 2, 2017)

Yes you need electric inside to keep the goats from rubbing or putting their feet up on it. Mine is broken in many places from them doing just that. I am going to put my bucks in cattle panels because they would break welded wire quite promptly! Lol


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 2, 2017)

Woven is better than welded
But if you run a strand or two of hot wire to keep them from rubbing on it then welded can work
You need the hot wire even with woven because even though they won't break the welds they still will
Stretch the fence


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 2, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> I like extra butter on my popcorn, by the way guys……who's hoarding it this morning?



I didn't get that
Must have missed something
Or maybe I'm just dense 
Or maybe your effort at passive aggressiveness just fell flat


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 2, 2017)

Ok, thank you for all the help everyone! I will keep reading about LGDs in case we end up needing one, but now I think it is mostly up to seeing how it goes once we move and to see if we need one. Thanks again!


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 2, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> Ok, thank you for all the help everyone! I will keep reading about LGDs in case we end up needing one, but now I think it is mostly up to seeing how it goes once we move and to see if we need one. Thanks again!



Sometimes you just figure out things as you go along
About 8 years ago we lived in a subdivision but had a wooded area on the back that was about an acre 
We got 3 Nigerians to keep the brush cleaned up and that's how One Fine Acre was born
Got a buck had some babies
One year at the fair we talked to some folks who had a dog that needed a home 
He was a GPx Border Collie ( Gasp that's a terrible combo  so I heard when I joined the forum
We moved to 5 acres have 39 goats 
Still have Mikey the mix and 4 more GPs that came to us in their own time
Have even had a litter of pups


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## Baymule (Mar 2, 2017)

Welded wire comes apart. It is not worth the effort to put it up. A dog can bite it and tear it apart.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 2, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Welded wire comes apart. It is not worth the effort to put it up. A dog can bite it and tear it apart.


The original One Fine Acre was all welded wire and one strand of hot wire kept it in place


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 3, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> *I wouldn't rely on that, and depending on where you live, if your dog is on someone else's property and they feel it's threatening their animals, they have a right to shoot it. And if they provoke your dog and end up being bitten (god forbid) they can sue you for every penny you have. So no, not a risk I would take*.



Thank you @NHhomesteader


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## AClark (Mar 3, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> Yes you need electric inside to keep the goats from rubbing or putting their feet up on it. Mine is broken in many places from them doing just that. I am going to put my bucks in cattle panels because they would break welded wire quite promptly! Lol


Story of my life with the rubbing and standing on the fence! I'm glad I have a steel welded fence. Welded wire is a joke if it doesn't have something really sturdy holding it up or something else to make them respect it. We are lining our fence with it, but it is not a supportive measure, just a preventative since the goats can slip through our fencing (5 "strands" of welded pipe). That is about all it is good for.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's pretty imperative you keep your dog home, I shot at one a couple of weeks ago for slinking around being naughty. Had it been harassing or killing my livestock, I would have aimed at it instead of in front of it. Not everyone will warn your dog off with a shot that doesn't hit it.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 3, 2017)

AClark said:


> Story of my life with the rubbing and standing on the fence! I'm glad I have a steel welded fence. Welded wire is a joke if it doesn't have something really sturdy holding it up or something else to make them respect it. We are lining our fence with it, but it is not a supportive measure, just a preventative since the goats can slip through our fencing (5 "strands" of welded pipe). That is about all it is good for.
> 
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's pretty imperative you keep your dog home, I shot at one a couple of weeks ago for slinking around being naughty. Had it been harassing or killing my livestock, I would have aimed at it instead of in front of it. Not everyone will warn your dog off with a shot that doesn't hit it.



Yes, I would absolutely need the dog to stay home. I don't like when people leave their dogs to roam, so I don't want mine to be. 


So if I understand correctly, I should return the welded that I have? It's getting shipped to the store so I can return it then. The woven cost about 230$/100ft, the welded I got on sale for 100$/100ft (the regular price isn't that far off from the woven, it's just that the woven is never in stock.


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## Baymule (Mar 3, 2017)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/non-climb-horse-fence-48-in-x-200-ft?cm_vc=-10005

This is what we have fenced our 8 acres with.....and the 100'x70' garden and the pastures we have divided it up into.


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## Bruce (Mar 3, 2017)

What is the $230/100'? That sounds pretty expensive.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

Baymule said:


> http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/non-climb-horse-fence-48-in-x-200-ft?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> This is what we have fenced our 8 acres with.....and the 100'x70' garden and the pastures we have divided it up into.





Bruce said:


> What is the $230/100'? That sounds pretty expensive.



The 230$/100ft is for the same type of fence that @Baymule linked to. I looked a bit on this forum and saw that people were buying theres for much less, but where I live this is the cheapest I can get. The hardware stores only sell welded, and fencing companies charge much much much more. There are only 2 farm stores that I know of in the area, and the other only sells welded 2x4". Woven starts at 4"x4", which I don't want. So basically, am I better off spending less and getting 5' high fence for 100$/100ft welded, or should I get the woven at 4' (for 5' it's 299$) for $230/100ft, even if that means the animals will have a lot less space for a while?


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## Bruce (Mar 4, 2017)

Wow, I know the Canadian $ is less than the USA $ but not almost half! I suppose you wouldn't make out going down to NY (or MI if you are on the western side of Ontario) to a TSC and bringing it back, they would probably charge some sort of import duty right? Stuff is heavy too. $1.25 US ($1.67 Canadian)/ft for the 4' @Baymule linked vs $2.30 (Canadian)/ft for the equivilent you found. Does the price of what you found include sales tax? The stuff Bay linked would be $1.34 US/ft here in Vermont with tax.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 4, 2017)

Wow, that is pricey! 

Honestly though, if you can spend the extra money and invest in a good fence! We started with welded wire, but have had to replace it. It gets costly to put a fence up twice! 

We were never able to get a good stretch on the welded wire. The welds pop when trying to stretch it!


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

Bruce said:


> Wow, I know the Canadian $ is less than the USA $ but not almost half! I suppose you wouldn't make out going down to NY (or MI if you are on the western side of Ontario) to a TSC and bringing it back, they would probably charge some sort of import duty right? Stuff is heavy too. $1.25 US ($1.67 Canadian)/ft for the 4' @Baymule linked vs $2.30 (Canadian)/ft for the equivilent you found. Does the price of what you found include sales tax? The stuff Bay linked would be $1.34 US/ft here in Vermont with tax.



I actually never even considered purchasing it in the US. I would have to see how far the store is and how much they charge at the border, but it's worth considering. The cost doesn't include tax. With tax it ends up being 2.60$/ft. The store told me that most people don't buy the woven, they either get welded 2"x4", or the ones with bigger holes (which the chickens would easily pass through, as would my rabbit.



Goat Whisperer said:


> Wow, that is pricey!
> 
> Honestly though, if you can spend the extra money and invest in a good fence! We started with welded wire, but have had to replace it. It gets costly to put a fence up twice!
> 
> We were never able to get a good stretch on the welded wire. The welds pop when trying to stretch it!



I was surprised at how expensive it was too. I can get 500ft of welded for the price of 200ft woven. But if the welded won't last, then it is even more expensive. I guess I'll probably return what is on it's way (I don't have it yet, and have 60 days to return once I do, so it gives me time) and hope there is a sale for the woven. Last summer they had a lot of sales for fencing, which occasionally  included woven. We weren't ready at that time, but now we will be.


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## Bruce (Mar 4, 2017)

As @Goat Whisperer said, put enough (meaning proper) tension on the welded wire and some of the welds might pop even if the animals never touch it. Then they can make their own 4x4 holes in a 2x4 fence. Of course it would take them some time to find those weak spots. 

But I feel the pain of your decision. I went with woven sheep and goat and woven field fence because it only needed to keep the dog in and was about the same price as the no climb horse fence but for 330'. Had I known that I would not be able to keep the dog and was actually fencing predators out, I would have spent the money on the 2x4 woven fencing.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 4, 2017)

How many and what kind of animals are you keeping? I don't love my welded wire but, if you put up electric top and bottom and are keeping fewer/smaller livestock and not keeping bucks or rams, it might be ok.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

I would be keeping 2 ND goats and maybe 10 chickens (+one pet rabbit) in the fence this year, but eventually I would like maybe 6 nigerian dwarf goats and a few sheep for meat + the chickens and a few ducks (possibly). The goats will also have their horns left on, so I don't want them getting stuck. I looked at electric fencing, but didn't find any single wires available. They sell it as an actual fence with 4"x4" holes for $390/330ft which is 40" high. Also, the township wants the electric fence to be within another fence, so I'm scared the goats will get their horns or heads wrapped around it.

I think I will go with the woven. I spoke about this with my parents, and my mom said she will keep the welded that I ordered for her garden, and they offered to pay for some of the fence (the animals will be mine, but we are all going to be using what they produce eventually), so it will work out ok. We will purchase 400ft of woven, but wait until either it goes on sale or until we have to buy it. Right now it's on sale at 200$/100ft instead of 230$, but there is only one roll left, lol.


Should I splurge for the 5' or is 4' enough? Every ND goat breeder around here uses 4', but online some people say their goats are able to jump it. I really need them to stay in when we aren't home, since we will be gone for many hours during the day, and they could easily get lost in the many acres of forest our neighbours own behind our land. Also, if we get a dog, he would have to be contained as well. The 5' is 299$/100ft


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 4, 2017)

We use 4ft for all our fences.

Only goats that have jumped it was a 38" (@ withers) lamancha buck and a Kiko buck years ago.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> We use 4ft for all our fences.
> 
> Only goats that have jumped it was a 38" (@ withers) lamancha buck and a Kiko buck years ago.



Ok, perfect. We probably won't be getting a buck for at least 3 years, so by then a lot of things will have changed.


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## greybeard (Mar 4, 2017)

I think you are making the right choice. It comes down to the old "Pay me now or pay me later" thing too.


> The woven cost about 230$/100ft, the welded I got on sale for 100$/100ft


Even as old as I am, (much less time left on the planet than what I've already spent here) I still take the long view on anything I build.
 If you went with the less expensive welded wire and replaced it later with the woven wire, you will have payed $330/100ft of fence instead of $230/100ft. (plus the extra time & labor involved)

I don't use much field fence, but when I do, I prefer Bekaert Hi-tensile knotted or fixed knot wire.
However, Rangemaster also makes a very good wire, and Canada's Home Hardware carries it.

homehardware

One example of their products at an Ontario location.
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/cat/i...upplies/RANGEMASTER/_/N-ntjl8Z1z140m6/Ne-logj

You will have to use HomeHardware's store locator to find a distributor near you.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

greybeard said:


> I think you are making the right choice. It comes down to the old "Pay me now or pay me later" thing too.
> 
> Even as old as I am, (much less time left on the planet than what I've already spent here) I still take the long view on anything I build.
> If you went with the less expensive welded wire and replaced it later with the woven wire, you will have payed $330/100ft of fence instead of $230/100ft.
> ...



I didn't find it at homehardware, thank you so much!! It's $260/330ft there!!


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

Haha, false alarm, it's cattle fence. The horse is the same, but thank you anyways!


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 4, 2017)

Is there a reason you prefer those brands over others?


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## Alibo (Mar 4, 2017)

My mini nubian mixes jump a five foot fence like a deer. Gorgeous and graceful to watch but I would invest in the higher fencing. Like greybeard said pay me now or pay me later lol. I am hoping once they fatten up this summer they won't be as nimble


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 5, 2017)

Alibo said:


> My mini nubian mixes jump a five foot fence like a deer. Gorgeous and graceful to watch but I would invest in the higher fencing. Like greybeard said pay me now or pay me later lol. I am hoping once they fatten up this summer they won't be as nimble



Animals just love finding ways to escape . My heaviest chicken is the only one who can fly 8' high,no problem. I think I wouldn't stress as much with a fence higher than 4' for the goats, so I'm leaning more towards the 5'


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## Baymule (Mar 5, 2017)

We had 16 acres at a previous property. We fenced it in field fencing. Oops. We had horses and they pawed the fence, catching their hooves in the just-big-enough-holes in the wire and they tore it up. Dogs wiggled through the holes, it was a learning experience in what not to do.

We moved to 8 acres and a doublewide. Nothing else. We had to put up fence and coughed up the money for a one-time fence. We paid $220 for a 200' roll of the 2"x4"x48" woven wire. Like @greybeard we take the long term view on what we build and cheap, crap wire wasn't in the picture.

Do it right the first time and you will be glad that you did.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 5, 2017)

Yea, I'll get the 5' woven 2"x4" fence from homehardware, the one that @greybeard linked to. It's $250/100ft, so $40$ cheaper than the one from TSC. I don't want to have to make the fence again, it's hard enough to do it once . This way, all the possible animals will be kept inside.


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## greybeard (Mar 5, 2017)

JoyfulGoats said:


> Is there a reason you prefer those brands over others?


Performance
Experience.
Availability.
Cost per mile in purchase and maintenance.

Red Brand is a great brand, but no better than Bekaert or Rangemaster. 
RedBrand got it's good reputation many years ago, when the competition was of less quality and often made in S. America, while Redbrand touted itself as being American wire. In the last couple of decades, Bekaert (Made in Ky USA)and a couple others have met and exceeded the performance of Redbrand, is much more available and affordable. Like a lot of other things in the world, when you specify Redbrand, part of what you are paying for is just the name. 

The original Redbrand woven was 12ga low carbon steel, top and bottom (as well as on the barbed and barbless twisted wire) and a good tensile strength, but it would rust, had a lot of stretch to it, and would get loose after a few years. Bekaert came out with a quality high tensile wire w/high zinc content that didn't have any stretch, wouldn't rust and once pulled tight--stayed tight. Now, Redbrand has come out with it's own high tensile wire to try to regain some of the customer base it lost. 
When you buy wire no matter what kind, look close at the specs. Tensile strength. 
I can't have a wire that gets loose every time a cow pushes against it or when the river gets out and debris piles up on one side of it. 
I put up lots of 12ga Redbrand in the mid 60s and a smaller quantity of 14 ga high tensile- sometimes called 'gaucho wire'. The high tensile is still just as shiny as it was the year I put it up but the 12ga Redbrand is rusty, loose, and sagging. I have to go around and tighten it up every couple of years. 
I helped my b-i-l put up Bekaert knotted 2"x4"x6' horsewire fence around his pea and melon field a few years ago, to help keep the critters out of it. Coons rabbits and skunks. A single 12ga HT hot wire at midway up. It worked well. His health has gone downhill since then, and he now keeps hair sheep, chickens and turkeys where his melons used to be.


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## Bruce (Mar 5, 2017)

You will have a hard time finding a chicken that can't fly a 4' fence. At that point the question is "how far from the coop is the fence?". I don't know if my girls are "normal/average" but they pretty much self limit to about 100' from a building. Thus, in theory, if I have a fence a chicken can go through/over but it is much farther than 100' from a building, they won't likely go through/over it. Theory is untested 

When people here are talking about an electric fence, they are generally referring to one you string yourself, not the available electric net fences that have integral light weight posts. Same amount of work putting in posts as for woven wire fence but stringing the wire is very easy and it is cheap. Clip on (T-posts) or nail on (wood posts) the appropriate insulators and run the wire/tape through. You can use galvanized wire or poly wire/tape that come on spools. They are considered to be more or less permanent whereas the net fences are used to make portable/reconfigurable pastures that you DO plan to move with some frequency. 

With both you need to keep growing plant life off the wires. This is easier with an electric wire fence (where you can use a string trimmer under the wires) than a net fence where the wires are more likely to be closer to the ground and the string is more likely to hit them (not good for the string or the fence). I think it is common for the "new" fence line to be mowed short then the net fence put in. When you want to move them, do it again. If the net fence is to stay in the same general configuration more or less permanently, it is moved away (disconnected from the charger of course!) a few feet, the fence line mowed, then the fence moved back.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 5, 2017)

I have used the net fence with my chickens but not my goats. My goats could hop right over it, but I assume the point is they are afraid to try, lol. There is a goat farm near me that uses it for their alpines and LGD, but they have perimeter fencing too. I do intend to try it with them sometime, just haven't done it yet.


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## greybeard (Mar 5, 2017)

Bruce--your livestock don't keep the vegetation eaten down under and around the fences? 
Except on the National Forest side, I never have vegetation growing anywhere on a fenceline. 
B-i-l's poultry eat every green sprout shoot and leaf that comes up so he doesn't have that problem either.


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## JoyfulGoats (Mar 5, 2017)

@greybeard I will buy the brand you recommend unless the other one becomes much cheaper through a sale. How do you know the tensile strength though? I don't see it listed...




 

@Bruce , thank you! I kept hearing "a wire of electric fence" everywhere, but I thought it was a plastic thing specially made, haha.
My chickens _can_ fly over the fence, but they never do. We've had them for almost 2 years, and they will go under or through one if the holes are big enough, but never over. The only time my chickens flew over a fence was when we had a fence in the garage to seperate a "chicken area". My one hen can fly 8' up, but so far hasn't outside . I'm planning to fence 80x120ft. So far I've noticed that as long as they have enough interesting things to find, they don't try to escape. But I will get the 5' just in case.


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## greybeard (Mar 5, 2017)

JoyfulGoats--you usually have to go to the manufacturer's website to find the more detailed information.  If you are just going to be using the fence to detain smaller stock, then tensile strength will not be much of an issue. (I sometimes forget where I'm posting at, and that what my requirements are will be overkill for most backyard herds and livestock--I have no stock as pets here, just horses and roughstock cattle, brahma and charolais influnced breeding--the wilder ones tend not to go over fences--they go thru them just from brute force. On the rare occasion that I end up with a jumper, he/she is gone the next sale day--I won't tolerate a jumper)

Buy, what works for you and your livestock's requirements.


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## Bruce (Mar 8, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Bruce--your livestock don't keep the vegetation eaten down under and around the fences?
> Except on the National Forest side, I never have vegetation growing anywhere on a fenceline.
> B-i-l's poultry eat every green sprout shoot and leaf that comes up so he doesn't have that problem either.



I'm pretty sure the alpacas wouldn't want to clear the weeds under a hotwire once they hit it the first time. Could be wrong. Plus, since I no longer have the dog to keep critters out (*), I need to put low HW on the OUTSIDE of the field fence so the predators can't dig under. or go through. The boys definitely won't be keeping that clear since they can't get on the outside. My chickens wander all over eating whatever seems best to them at the time. They have way more than enough space so the only area that is denuded is around the lilac by the pool deck. It is one of their favorite afternoon places to hang out and they have made dust baths there. 

* I had a low HW in case HE was going to dig, the boys wouldn't likely keep that clear. I will be moving that to the outside.


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