# clumpy poo with white dots



## NaturesPace (Aug 31, 2013)

one of my 6 month old doelings has slightly clumpy poo and today i found little slimy dots between the berries. They are about the size of a piece of rice. i poked it and it seems like it was mucus-like. I'm guessing it's some sort of worm or egg. Any ideas. I'm going to get a photo now and will post soon. I want to be sure to use the correct medicine. I have Ivermecin, safeguard and stuff for cocci.

breed - Nigerian Dwarf, 6 months old, eating chaffhaye, grass hay, alfalfa pellets and foraging on grasses. Free choice, baking soda, loose minerals and kelp and water.


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## NaturesPace (Aug 31, 2013)

Older poo with worm on it. I'm thinking that is something that hatched from the poo or something that got laid on the poo and hatched??? the poo didn't look too old so i'm not sure what those are.






Fresh Poo - I'm doing a fecal float right now. I'll update with what I saw. No white worms on the fresh poo.




Oynx - I don't think she is looking or acting sick.


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## NaturesPace (Aug 31, 2013)

Fecal sample showed cocci... again. this will be the third time i'm treating her. I'm using Toltrazuril (bay cox)
dosing: 1cc/5lbs is what i'm going to use.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2013)

Cocci isn't a worm. More than likely the "white" segment is a tapeworm. Because the photo is a close up it isn't giving an accurate size, tapes come apart into segmants, they are "flat" and small (usually) like a grain of rice.

Tapeworm will produce stools like that in your picture. Clumpy, and soft.

You will need a dewormer for tapeworm.

With the cocci- I see the dosage, how often have you treated? Days apart etc?
Have you been using the toltrazuril or a different cocci treatment drug?


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## NaturesPace (Aug 31, 2013)

Southern,
I think the worms were from the poos sitting for awhile. I saw both of them poo in person and both were clumpy with no white specks. I did a fecal float on the fresh sample and saw lots of cocci. I didn't see a lot of anything else.

I used Dimethox the first time for 5 days (June 30) and then Toltrazuril once (july 27)
I was going to do Toltrazuril today and again in 10 days no matter what their fecal shows. what do you think?

We have had a lot of rain this year and they are on pasture. I'm wondering if that is the issue. Also, i should say that i adopted them in June. I have no other goats and learning as i go.

any ideas what the worm is? it is about 1/8 inch long in the photo. I think it must be from another source, hay, fly...
that poo was not this this morning so i know it wasn't there for days incubating a worm.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2013)

The tape could have been "inside" the poop and crawled up. I wouldn't be overly concerned with it. If the eggs have hatched which is evident by the worm then you may not see any eggs. Are you familiar with tape eggs in goats? They are somewhat strange in shape.

You must live somewhere in the southeast. The rain has created a mess this year, parasite wise.

How many oocysts are you seeing?
Are you do straight fecal or McMasters? Do you use salt or sugar solution?

I think it is smart to treat and then the follow up 10 days later.  Definitely keep in contact with your vet, which I am sure you are. Anything off label must be prescribed.

If there is a way you can dry lot them in a small area and literally SCOOP the poop every day , several times a day if you can will help in breaking the cycle. MAke sure you have precise weights also... no tape measurements. It would be best to get them off pasture right now and keep hay and feed up off the ground. They sound like they are reinfecting themselves. 

Cocci has to be ingested. So if they are on pasture all it takes is for them to eat out of the "wrong" clump of grass. 

Also you may want to treat them at least their feet for mites. Most mites are microscopic, so you really can't see them, just the evidence of them being there. If it is the foot louse (L pedalis) it can be on belly and scrotum... population peaks in spring. The egg cycle is longer 3weeks.... this one is common in sheep and a louse not a mite.
The* (Chorioptes bovis) Chorioptic Scab mite-*   on goats... they stay around the hoof area and very lower legs.The foot mite doesn't cause many issues and often goes completely unnoticed. Occasionally if they get bad enough you may see a little crust right at the hoof. Anyway... if they "chew" at their feet they will continually reinfect themselves with the cocci.  Just a FYI 

Great you do your own fecals to monitor!


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## NaturesPace (Aug 31, 2013)

I'm just north of you in Virginia. so yes, lots of rain. rain as i write.
I am doing straight fecal (fiasco method) in salt. On the slide i made today I saw over 30 cocci eggs. I think I saw one nematode, but nothing else stood out. i don't have a good place to dry lot them, but i guess i can put them on cut grass. they tend to only eat the grass that is at least a foot tall. i'm using electronetting, but everything has some pasture.

We did an exact weight today. 30# and 25#. I treated 6cc and 5cc.

Can i treat their feet with DE or do i need something else for mites?

I put DE under their straw bedding when we clean out the "shed".
Here is what our shed looks like. it's a chainlink cage with a 3 sided inclosure and a tarp over the top on 2 cattle panels.



If anything seems 'off' for keeping goats, let me know. I'm very new and thick skinned, so any info is helpful.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2013)

The DE is great in the bedding however it will not stay on the feet and it needs time to work. I like the permethrin 10% from TSc.  It is labelled for goats, so no off label usage. I kills on contact and is very mild. IMO better than the pyrethrum.  It needs repeating in 10-14 days, for eggs that hatch.

How long do you let the fecal set up before putting the cover on the slide and reading it?

Your shelter area is perfect for "lotting".... if you choose to do that.

The cocci count is nowhere near danger levels but after treatment you may want to consider medicated feed.

Personally I have never had a cocci preventative program or fed medicated feed. Not a big fan of "medicating". Yet this year the conditions have been like something out of a bad movie! I found oocyst on my slides  ( I use McMasters), never having them show up I went a "little" over the top you could say!  I did decide (agonizing actually) to do a preventative with Di-methox. Then I started a medicated feed. Mostly because 90% of the people we know in goats in our region have lost animals this year either from cocci or barberpole. My vets kind of laughed at my numbers with the cocci but they also know how I can be  ...LOL... they knew it would at least make me feel better. July 25, 2013
Current results-
*Heidi (adult)  cocci- 2 
*Katie (adult)  cocci- 1
*Millie (adult)  cocci- 6 
Coco (adult)   cocci-3
C-1 (11 months) cocci- 4 
*Naomi (5m)  cocci-14 
Bo-Peep (<3m)  cocci-6 *
Mini-Mancha (4 wks) no count yet

Running Aug fecals this weekend- 

As you can see the adults are no big deal... but I have always had 0.  The two kids were very low but still.......
In June we had none.

We ran the medicated feed for 1 month and now we are going back to our regular feed. The fecals I have done so far look good. 

Really hoping the winter isn't rain, rain, rain, again.
We don't really get the snow. We are moving the building because it is still just UGH! 
My vets ( I use 3)  said to do the preventative and recheck fecals in 30 days. So far so good! 

A whole new experience for me.  :/


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## NaturesPace (Aug 31, 2013)

thanks so much for the detailed info. It was funny to read the names of your goats being my name is Heidi. I guess I should get used to it. My parents had a friend who named their dog Heidi, well after I was born. It's a good name for Alpines. 
Thanks again.
Heidi


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2013)

Your welcome... and IMO heidi is a great name... Heidi is my prettiest and most elegant doe.   

Hopefully you'll update after the next treatments. Would really like to hear how the toltrazuril works for you... or you could pm me.


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## Moonshine (Aug 31, 2013)

I agree with Southern, its tape. I just dosed my girls with ivermecin and my youngest girl had tape in her poo for 3 weeks. I dosed 3 times 10 days apart. Her poo was dog logs but it had the white spots in it and when I wouldn't see any tape I'd take a stick and break it apart and found tape. 

I have a question. If her doe is passing tape worm, would that mean she passing them naturally due to them dying from a natural dewormer or could she just be overloaded with them and that's the cause for passing without worming?

Also I found this thread very interesting and helpful. I didn't know that Cocci was from mites being digested.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2013)

Uh. oh...* Cocci isn't from mites being ingested.* Cocci needs to be ingested... therefore goats walking around and cocci is on the ground, in the fecal etc, the goats walk through that. It is more about the goats licking and chewing their feet that can cause the ingestion cycle. If the feet have mites etc then the chewing and licking can just keep the cycle going. Goats are always going to have some fecal matter on their feet. Hopefully that explains it a little better.

Usually you can see tapes moving in the fecal, that means it is alive. 

Natural dewormers do not kill... they act as more of a barrier not allowing the reproduction, different herbals will cause a coating etc that prevents the reproduction or feeding. That is why with natural/herbals it needs to be given on a regular basis so they eventually die off. Some stun etc  we have lots of Lespedeza here, that is a natural "preventative".

Anthelmintics- or de-wormers, depending on the class, act differently. Some stun, some paralyze, some kill.  I know that was simplifying it a bit.

I think you know this but I will say this just in case... cocci are not worms they are (single-celled) protozoan parasites. De-wormers do not effect cocci.

Here is a good animation... http://www.goatbiology.com/animations/coccid.html


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## treeclimber233 (Sep 2, 2013)

Tapeworms attach to the side of the intestine.  They release egg segments that are passed out in the poop as a means of reproduction.  The actual mature tapeworm is still attached inside the intestine. So the small white things you are seeing in the poop is actually a segment and not the worm.  The most interesting thing about these segments is they can move on their own until they dry out.


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## NaturesPace (Sep 3, 2013)

Just to confirm Southern and Tree, you think that the white bits are parts of the tapeworm and Ivermectin works well on tapeworms?
do you know the dosing off the top of your head? I will look it up otherwise.
thanks everyone for the help.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 3, 2013)

I like the Safeguard for goats. The dosage is on the label and FOR goats. The nice thing is it is not an "off-label" drug so you donot need supervision of a vet, although it is always good to update your vet. 
Safeguard (fenbendaazole) for goats- 10%suspension (100mg/mL)
25lb=0.6ml
50lb=1.2ml
75lb=1.7ml
100lb=2.3ml

Below is all bout tapes in sheep and goats. It will help you understand more about these parasites.

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/tapeworms.html


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