# Holding tail off to the side...does that always indicate heat?



## amysflock (Jul 28, 2008)

Our 4-year old, presumably bred Scottish Highland has been periodically holding her tail off to the side (and a bit up) off her she-parts since Friday afternoon. It's not all the time...I'd say probably 2/3 of the times I can see her out there, though. I went out for a combing session last night and she did it then, too.

Does this always indicate heat, or can it be something else? We plan to have the vet out to palpitate both she and our 2-year old heifer in the next two weeks; if Sheila (cow) is due, it couldn't be any earlier than November (unplanned 14-day encounter with breeder's bull on his property) or as late as March (arranged encounter with him after we bought her).

Thanks!


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## Farmer Kitty (Jul 28, 2008)

I would say no. 
Is she slimy (drainage from privates)? If so, is it clear or cloudy? Overley friendly? Wanting to ride the other(s)?


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## amysflock (Jul 28, 2008)

We only have the two girls, and she hasn't tried to mount the other. She also hasn't seemed more aggressive or friendly. We had company all weekend, though, so they stayed more in the pasture than the paddock until everyone left yesterday. She doesn't seem slimy or moister than normal or anything, although the hair around there was a bit wet. I didn't see any blood or anything. I'm still not entirely sure what to look for, though.


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## Farmer Kitty (Jul 28, 2008)

Well, for drainage, clear means coming into heat or in heat. Cloudy is pregnant. With white stuff or chunks, infection.

Mounting is a good indictor. If the one being mounted stands she is in heat. If she first stands in the morning then breed in the aft. If first stands in the aft. breed in the morning. Watch the tailhead and see if it gets roughened. If you have a paint stick you can mark her by going down the tailhead. This will help tell you if they are riding. 

Sometimes they get overly friendly or start bawling/bellowing. 

You can also put your hand on their tailhead and gently rub back and forth. If in heat they really raise thier tail and like the rub. It is different than if they are itchy. You can alos gently pinch the bottom of her privates. If she raises her tail right up she is probably in heat.

I hope this helps you.


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## amysflock (Jul 28, 2008)

If the lead cow was in heat, would the other (a heifer) dare try to mount her? I haven't seen this behavior, but I'm wondering if it would ever happen at our place, since our heifer is half the age (and about 2/3 the size) of the cow.

I'll try the scratchy/pinchy thing tonight and see what happens. (If you don't hear back from me, send a search party in case I've gotten my head kicked in.)


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## allenacres (Aug 13, 2008)

I dont know the answer to your question but did you get your girls checked for preggers?  I saw you had Bruce out to trim your cow on your web site blog.  Isnt that cool how they do it? 

Oh and my garden is VERY similar to yours. And Ive had the same thoughts as you.


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## amysflock (Aug 18, 2008)

Exciting news...

We had a vet out Friday afternoon for palpitations, and both girls are pregnant! Sheila is still holding her tail out occasionally, but she's most definintely not in heat!

Bridgit, the heifer, is about 7 months along, so will calve probably in late October.

Oddly, the vet thinks Sheila is only two months pregnant at the most. That doesn't make any sense, since the breeder swears the accidental bull encounter was from Feb 14-28, which would put her at 6 months, and our intentional exposure from May 27-June 28th would put her at 4. The breeder said her first calf was a bit large coming from a heifer, so unless the breeder is incorrect, she's carrying a tiny little calf.

Any thoughts on this, guys? Incidentally, if she was carrying twins (shudder), the vet would have been able to tell, right?

(I will add that our "halter broke" cows are a dream when not haltered and being combed, and Sheila was pretty well behaved when haltered for her hoof trimming, but they must know "vet", and Bridgit was a wild nightmare!!! We will definitely be investing in "real" containment measures before we have to do this again.)


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## Farmer Kitty (Aug 18, 2008)

If you are postive that her last exposure to a bull was 4 months ago she has to be at least that along. But, do any neighbors have a bull that could have jumped the fence for a visit? A vet won't necessarily be able to tell if it's twins or not. I would watch her close. First, incase something is wrong and she aborts the calf. Second, in case it's twins. A second calf can cause more complications during freshening.


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## jjanekelly (Dec 5, 2008)

Hi I have a question. I have a yearling scottish highlander bull, with a young scottish female, the last 2 days, the bull was making this god awful calls, not his normal call, almost sounded like a low growl.  I could not get into feed him, he'd chase me with his head down, digging and popping around really aggressive. He was trying to mount the female who's tail was off the the side. At times she would try to mount him. This morning, the female, was completely exhausted and her hind end was soaked, tail not up and off to the side.  The bull was back to his usual self, mellow and sweet. He let me in to feed them, wanted his jaw and ears scratched. Obeyed my, "back, move" command. Is this normal behavior for a bull when the female is in heat. How often does a cow go in heat? Does this behavior only happen when the female is in heat? Help. For the last 2 days, I was thinking I had to get rid of him for he was too much for me to handle, I'm not that familiar with cows, I ended up with him for the mother could not feed him and he's was starving, so, I took him in, bottle fed him and haltered trained him. Obviously, he's too big for me to walk around like a dog anymore, but he understands voice commands and was wel-mannered up until 2 days ago.
I understand, he's a bull and not to be trusted. Any suggestions. Thanks
Jane


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## wynedot55 (Dec 5, 2008)

yes the cow/heifer was in heat.you never an i mean never go in with a bull when a cow is in heat.because he will try to get you.they come into heat every 21 to 28 days if she isnt bred.so id stay clear of them the next heat cycle.


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## Farmer Kitty (Dec 5, 2008)

I would have to agree with wynedot. And your right NEVER trust a bull. Hopefully, she settled and you won't have to worry about it for a long time to come.


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## amysflock (Dec 6, 2008)

Yeah, wow...sounds like if he's old enough, you probably just witnessed your first breeding!

I'm very careful even with our cows...I don't have any real experience with bulls, but would definitely watch myself around them. We'll be needing to bring a bull in to breed back our two girls in the next few months probably, so I'm going to read up on bull behavior and make sure DH and I are both ready.

Hope your girl is bred! How exciting!


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## Thewife (Dec 6, 2008)

I don't trust bulls at all! When I am out and about, my dogs are with me. If we are doing a round up, I let the guys deal with the bull.  
When I was milking, the boss brought in a big bull. The barn scraper and the first two milking shifts didn't have a problem with him. When it came to my shift, he stood at the end of the pit and screamed at me! Then he started going up and down the holding pen, only stopping at the end of the pit, to scream at me! When it got to the point I had to go into the holding pen to bring up the slacker cows, I called the manager and told her if she wanted these cows milked, she had better get her #### out here! I still goose bumps thinking about that!


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## wynedot55 (Dec 6, 2008)

your story reminds me of our 3000lb bull years ago.id be in the truck an percey would walk up to the truck stick his head in the window an beller.


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## jjanekelly (Dec 10, 2008)

Thanks all, Rusty the bull is back to being himself. As I've been reading, I guess I'm not out of the woods, unless his companion is pregnant. Hopefully, that's the case. He's an amazing animal to look at. Take care


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## allenacres (Dec 11, 2008)

jjanekelly said:
			
		

> Thanks all, Rusty the bull is back to being himself. As I've been reading, I guess I'm not out of the woods, unless his companion is pregnant. Hopefully, that's the case. He's an amazing animal to look at. Take care


How old is your heifer?


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## jhm47 (Dec 13, 2008)

Hello:  I'm concerned about something that I feel is important.  First of all, I've raised cattle for my entire life 60+ years.  When I was pre-school, I helped my father with his dairy herd by feeding the baby calves (Holstein).  When I was older, I took over all the chores, and still have a herd of beef cattle.  

I am also a paramedic.  I have worked on an ambulance crew for nearly 20 years now, and have had to treat and transport several people who were attacked by bulls and even some who were attacked by cows.

Here is a bit of advice to all of you.  I realize that some of you will strongly disagree with me, but I am posting this for your own safety and well-being.

DO NOT pet bulls on their heads.  They love it, but it leads to aggressive behavior.  It's cute to see them come up and want their heads scratched, but when they get larger, they become demanding, and many will also start to play with you.  Their play is very dangerous, and can injure or kill humans.

Second, I will never understand why people will allow cattle to have the large, sharp horns like Highlanders/Longhorns (or any other breed) have.  These are weapons that are just as dangerous to people and other animals as is a gun in the hands of an irresponsible person.  These horns interfere with being able to safely restrain an animal (headgate or holding chute).  They also are a danger to their herdmates.  Many cattle defend their space at the feeder with their horns, and they have put out eyes and otherwise injured their fellow cattle and owners.

I post this not with the intent to criticize anyone, but I felt obligated to warn all of you about this.  I would feel terrible if someone was injured or killed, and I hadn't warned them about this.  

Oh----There are several ways to safely and humanely "dehorn" cattle.  In my opinion, the best way is to "breed the horns off".  Good luck!


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## Farmer Kitty (Dec 13, 2008)

I agree with you! Bulls are not pets! You should always keep a watchful eye on them-at all times! 

I also feel that horns are dangerous and should come off. There are some here that do not feel that way or leave them until they cause problems-that is their choice and I believe it has been talked about here on the forum.


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## Thewife (Dec 13, 2008)

I alway heard, the tamer the bull, the higher the chance he will hurt someone.
I always like the pasture raised, afraid of people, bulls!


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## amysflock (Dec 14, 2008)

I have also read that one should never pet any cow/bull on the head. Good to know.

As for horns and headgates, scissor-close headgates do work for the Scottish Highland; the more common kind that are meant for the polled breeds don't work as well (but can still work...just takes more doing). I personally am no more careful working around my girls than I would be a polled animal...a bovine is a bovine, most are large, and all can do serious damage. I guess for me the horns just make a slightly wider "safety" circle...a good visual reminder to watch it.

I believe (and am postive my DH would agree) that any animal we have (horned or polled) that goes balistic and gets dangerous for no identifiable/correctable reason (i.e. not the result of a stupid mistake/misjudgement on our part or the result of the animal being spooked for by something) wins a one-way ticket to the slaughter house. Whether I "love" them or not. We're not here to breed dangerous animals.


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## wynedot55 (Dec 14, 2008)

i to have been around bulls all my life.an ive been around killer bulls as well.so i know what they can do to a person.an i do not trust any bull tame or mean.all of my bulls are gentle.an thats only so i can walk an be around them when i have to.all of my cows are the same way.but they are not pets.a friend of mine goes with  me or does my cattle buying once a year.because he knows the bulls an cows temperment.an he wont let me buy anything thats wild stupid or crazy.that being said i have a cow or 2 that hates dogs but thats it.


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## COUNTRYMAN (Dec 29, 2008)

thewife said:
			
		

> I alway heard, the tamer the bull, the higher the chance he will hurt someone.
> I always like the pasture raised, afraid of people, bulls!


truth is the tamer the bull the more you/we tend to trust them...BIG MISTAKE! a grown bull can kill you without trying to do so. One sling of that big head (horns or not) you will take a trip thats not gonna be fun

Been there done that , in my occupation no matter how hard we try ....we get complacent and at times take short cuts that we full well know could get us hurt or killed

9 outta 10 times i have ever been hurt by cattle, it probably could have been prevented, not proud of that but it's a fact

hind sight is 20/20


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## Farmer Kitty (Dec 29, 2008)

COUNTRYMAN said:
			
		

> hind sight is 20/20


Oh how true! 

You're right on injuries. A good portion of them are our mistakes. The cattle are just doing what comes naturally to them and it's us that goofs up by letting our guard down.


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## wynedot55 (Dec 29, 2008)

my running buddy wont let me buy a bull unless he picks the bull out.because he says i have to have gentle easy to handle bulls.an the bull i have will come in wanting feed.an stand by his feed pan.an i can walk around him without fear.an i raise all my bulls the same way.they come to the trough wanting feed.


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## Farmer Kitty (Dec 29, 2008)

You may not fear them but, you know what they are capable of and respect them. There is nothing wrong with having them easy to work around-I really don't like wild cattle either-but, one needs to respect them and remember what their nature is.


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## wynedot55 (Dec 29, 2008)

yes i know what they can do if they have a mind to.an i dont fear them.if that happens the bull goes down the road.


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## COUNTRYMAN (Dec 29, 2008)

wynedot55 said:
			
		

> my running buddy wont let me buy a bull unless he picks the bull out.because he says i have to have gentle easy to handle bulls.an the bull i have will come in wanting feed.an stand by his feed pan.an i can walk around him without fear.an i raise all my bulls the same way.they come to the trough wanting feed.


55 not doubting one second a gentle bull is better to have around than a flat nasty bull .....ive had them both and been on both sides of the fence litteraly 

i flat footed would rather have a gentle bull but i know very well that doesnt meen they are weaker or any less dangerous

i wont keep a mean bull and i dont trust a nice one  but thats just how i survive in my little world


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## wynedot55 (Dec 29, 2008)

ive kept a few mean bulls around only because they threw great daughters.an we always knew how to handle them.


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## COUNTRYMAN (Dec 29, 2008)

wynedot55 said:
			
		

> ive kept a few mean bulls around only because they threw great daughters.an we always knew how to handle them.


ok ,,,,,i'll jump off now


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## Imissmygirls (Jan 4, 2009)

For what it's worth, I've a dairying family friends whose female members could not be near their herd bull while menstruating. He would go ballistic. He has since been replaced but it's worth noting that some bulls can be that sensitive to hormones of all species!

My  4 yr old grandson who is autistic gave his mom a heart attack the other week by wandering into the beef cow pasture. Mom says it almost seemed like the head bull was intentionally calling for her to let her know *something* wasn't right. I can't say she isn't correct in her interpretation of the bulls reaction, but that boy has to learn to stay on the correct side of the fence!
I am personally more worried about the 1 1/2 yr old granddaughter who talks to the animals already. Keeping her out of the pasture may be impossible this summer! ( I know it was impossible to keep me away from the cows as a baby- I recall sneaking in.)


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## wynedot55 (Jan 5, 2009)

as far as your grandson goes some animales can sense when something isnt right with human.an protect them in their own way.ive worked with cattle all my life.an ive seen that happen a time or 2.


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## Imissmygirls (Jan 10, 2009)

I agree, wynedot, and that's why I really don't worry about my kids when they are around the animals. I was never afraid of them when young. My parents began dairying when I was a baby and always said if I got lost, all they had to do was look with the cows and there I'd be.
I get the biggest kick outta the Granddaughter. 15 months old and already she has the kittens coming when she calls and has a fit if she can't help Dad with the chickens and cows. My youngest daughter was the same way. The cows would always work well for her, even as a small child. She trained many of her siblings calves for them. It's such a gift some have and it's so special to see.


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## wynedot55 (Jan 11, 2009)

my oldest neice was cap trained when she was 4 months old.if she seen us with caps on she would either crawl to the door we go out of or start crying.an we would have to take her with us.


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