# Cow with calf to thinI think    ?



## foot (Oct 10, 2012)

I have a cow that has a calf on her and In the am she seems to thin to me ....So If I get a picture of her can you tell me If you think she Is thin like I do ??

 She has free choice minerals/hay two times per day and fresh walter.and Is on gras In the daytme.


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## Cricket (Oct 10, 2012)

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=236-bcs-of-cows
This is from Wild Rose Beef's page and you may find it helpful


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## WildRoseBeef (Oct 10, 2012)

That page that Cricket posted will help indeed, but I also think it would be alright to post a pic of her on here.

How old is the calf? Perhaps the calf is pulling her down or else the calf is at an age where you can consider weaning it as soon as possible.


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## foot (Oct 10, 2012)

Her calf is about 10 weeks old.  There is also a 8 week old bull calf that sneaks a drink when his momma is not close enough by.  She doesn't seem to mind and we wonder if that isn't dragging her down a bit too.  The bull calfs momma is not thin.  Here is the cow in question.  It is mostly that rear end of hers that looks so sharp.


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## Cricket (Oct 11, 2012)

What breed is she?  Could you separate her and her calf so that she's only feeding her own?


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## greybeard (Oct 11, 2012)

Not starving but yes, too thin especially for going into winter. 
How old is this cow?
What kind and how good is the grass she is on?
When you put out "free choice" hay, how much do you put out and how much does she eat?
If you have distressed pasture/forage, free choice needs to be all the time--day and night.  She has to be able to take in more than what is going out to her own energy consumption plus that of her calf's.
When was she last dewormed?


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## foot (Oct 11, 2012)

..Shes a Mini Zebu and she Is 3 years old and Its her seconed calf....Like I said Its her rear end the sharp end that has me thinking ......heres her rear end pic


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## WildRoseBeef (Oct 11, 2012)

To be honest, she doesn't look terribly thin, like emaciated-thin.  On a scale of 1 to 5, I reckon she is at a BCS of 2.75 to 3, which is actually considered almost normal for a cow.  I don't look at the rear lines of her body, I'm looking at the hooks and pins, the spine and how many ribs and how sharp the ribs are showing.  To me she is at adequate condition, not too fat nor too thin.  

If you want to know what a thin cow is, you should be worried when cows get like this:








When that triangle from the hooks to the ribs is sunken in and the thurl gets that sunken-in look, that's when you should be worried.  Your cow does not have any sunken-in-ness in those areas and her ribs clearly look like they are covered in some fat, so I really would not be worried.  Be careful about over-feeding with the grain, because you may do more harm than good by making her more fat than she needs to be.


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## foot (Oct 12, 2012)

..Thank you for looking and puting my mind at ease WRB ..I did look at what Cricket sent of yours and I am happy that she does not  look like the picture that you posted WRB ..I am making sure that she and the others have good hay to see them through the night as well.


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## greybeard (Oct 12, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> To be honest, she doesn't look terribly thin, like emaciated-thin.  On a scale of 1 to 5, I reckon she is at a BCS of 2.75 to 3, which is actually considered almost normal for a cow.  I don't look at the rear lines of her body, I'm looking at the hooks and pins, the spine and how many ribs and how sharp the ribs are showing.  To me she is at adequate condition, not too fat nor too thin.
> 
> If you want to know what a thin cow is, you should be worried when cows get like this:
> 
> http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s235/IluvABbeef/Cattle Diagrams/BCS1pic.png


And it's a cinch that BCS1 scored cow didn't always look like that. At some point, she looked like Foot's cow, and went downhill from there. Worry about 'em when they begin to show signs of decreased condition--not after they get to BCS1. 




> When that triangle from the hooks to the ribs is sunken in and the thurl gets that sunken-in look, that's when you should be worried.  Your cow does not have any sunken-in-ness in those areas and her ribs clearly look like they are covered in some fat, so I really would not be worried.  Be careful about over-feeding with the grain, because you may do more harm than good by making her more fat than she needs to be.


Foot's momma cow is a 2-2.5 at best imo, and in poor condition to be going into winter, which is historically the season cows need more energy and more protien--especially nursing cows.  (some breeds handle cold better than others--I wouldn't know about mini zebu)
Hard to tell by photos, but using zoom function, I see little or zero fat in the loin area.
From your own link (BCS-2)


> Though cows are still deemed thin at this point, I can assure you that the SPCA and the animal rights folks won't be as worried and concerned about malnutrition and sickness as the cow with a BCS of 1.  She still will have reproductive problems; both calving and breeding back in time for the next calving season. She will also eat more when she is in cold weather, or in times when she is in need of energy.  This cow has a body fat content of 11.3%.


If any of mine looked like that this time of year, even here in E. Texas, I'd be finding out why. A couple of them did this time last year after the worst summer drought in 60 years--I shipped 'em. They would have never made it thru winter.
But--what do I know?  Others here have more experience raising cattle than I have in my 62 years so


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## redtailgal (Oct 12, 2012)

greybeard said:
			
		

> Worry about 'em when they begin to show signs of decreased condition--not after they get to BCS1.


Yup, precisely.  If she is on a good ration and good pasture, I'd worm her.  And that bull calf would have to stop.  Cold weather hits and she'll drop more weight from trying to keep warm.


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## WildRoseBeef (Oct 12, 2012)

greybeard said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
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Don't say that GB, I appreciate and thank you for pointing out something that I completely missed, so it's my turn to un-sarcastically   to you. 

And you do have a point, and one that I might have been too tired to even consider until you brought it up. I certainly wouldn't want my cows to be looking like that going into the kind of Canadian winters we have up here.  They either wouldn't last, or would cost considerably extra feed to keep and to increase in weight, which is difficult when it's often -20 C. 

So, unfortunately foot, I will have to retract my statements and say that it *is* and should be something to be worried about, especially going into winter (well duh, why didn't I think of that??   ).  I also realize that I over-estimated the body condition score too.... BCS of 2 to 2.5 sounds a lot more accurate than the sugar-coating of 2.75 to 3 I gave you, now that I take a second and albeit refreshed look at the pictures. The thurl may not look sunken in but then again it could because of the angle and lighting of the pics themselves.  Same deal with the loin area; bad angle/lighting of pics making it look better than it really is.  A refreshed look at the pics this morning reveals that those hooks and pins are a bit sharper than they should be.  

So once again, me being tired + not the greatest pics = misunderstanding/misconceptions/underestimation/overestimation etc., etc., etc.,

So my apologies.


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## foot (Oct 12, 2012)

...Rememder that I,m In Florida and Its not as cold as In Canda although the winters here do get down to freezing sometimes........ This picture was taken this morning about 11am after Id fed them and put the out to graze...



                      I will post anouther picture of the Mini Zebu that we are talking about A,S.A.P


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## Cricket (Oct 12, 2012)

Plus you aren't supposed to have to think on your birthday, WRB  (hope you had a happy one!)  So while we're on condition, did either of you look at "Random pics of Fiona" under Everything Else Cattle.  I mentioned that they may want to watch she doesn't become over conditioned and I got the impression that everyone thought I was accusing Fiona of being fat and picking on her.  I'd like to see both of your comments.


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## foot (Oct 12, 2012)

..Heres the other picture that I said I would put on here and If I knew how ?? I would post them altogether ...It would save us all alot of time.


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## WildRoseBeef (Oct 12, 2012)

The latest picture is an even better indicator of how thin she really is (and how far off I was!  )  Definitely at a BCS of ~2, for sure.


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## foot (Oct 12, 2012)

Okay so the cattle were all wormed on July 29th.  We wormed this girl again tonight and seperated her and her calf from the rest of the herd.  They have their own full hay feeder, fresh water and fresh loose minerals.  We feed this skinny lady a bit of bread and a little sweet feed and a tiny bit of calf manna.  The calf is a little stressed about being away from her little friends but momma is settling in nicely.  We'll keep on her.  I think for her it was really a matter of her not being 100% when she was bred back last year.  Her calf last year had to be weaned early when momma injured herself and the treatments for the injury seemed to be worse than the injury itself.  She lost weight then and lost her milk and eventually got pneumonia.  The vet later said she was fine and could be bred back.  In hind sight we probably should have waited a little longer and got her in great condition rather than good condition.  All the other cows seem fine.   And she will be back to great soon I am sure.  We will stay on her she is our favorite here.  thank you all


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## redtailgal (Oct 12, 2012)

Ya know, I think I add a little nutra-drench to her feed for a week or so, to help her get a little bit of a boost.


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## Symphony (Oct 15, 2012)

She's pretty thin for the up coming winter months.  Seeing the rib cage is not good and I would have ample hay available for her 24/7 and possibly start graining her more.  She is a mini Zebu so that explains her hips as the Zebu is a hardy desert breed in Africa and have a dairy look to them.
Its good you weaned her calf and put her in another pasture alone.


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## greybeard (Oct 15, 2012)

foot said:
			
		

> ...Rememder that I,m In Florida and Its not as cold as In Canda although the winters here do get down to freezing sometimes........ This picture was taken this morning about 11am after Id fed them and put the out to graze...
> 
> [url]http://s9.postimage.org/4robi2ml7/100_1319.jpg[/url]                      I will post anouther picture of the Mini Zebu that we are talking about A,S.A.P


Not knowing what part of Fla you reside in, I can't say it for a fact, but I suspect you and I are located on about the same latitude. If I fly due East from my house, I'll be over the gulf in 30 minutes and won't see land again till I reach Florida's west coast so our winters aren't going to be all that different..
The word "Winter" really doesn't mean a lot in of itself--as a word. It's a season--primarily associated with shorter days--less sunlight/24 hr period and that manifests itself primarily in daily forage growth and forage quality. It's this lesser quality and abundance of forage that we prepare our animals  for more than anything else--as well as the  temperature drops.  



> I think for her it was really a matter of her not being 100% when she was bred back last year.  Her calf last year had to be weaned early when momma injured herself and the treatments for the injury seemed to be worse than the injury itself.  She lost weight then and lost her milk and eventually got pneumonia.  The vet later said she was fine and could be bred back.  In hind sight we probably should have waited a little longer and got her in great condition rather than good condition.


The history you've provided helps a lot. She's been stressed by calving, injured, stressed again by the medical treatment, stressed both mentally and medically by pneumonia, and never really came back to what she was before calving and injury.  Pneumonia is so common, that many people just take it for granted, but it's an illness that can take down even the strongest man or beast--never under-estimate it. The cow has likely lost both muscle and fat. The fat can be replaced fairly easily and quickly with higher fat and good  protein content feed regimen. Don't rush it--she lost it slowly--bring it back the same way.  Muscle replacement tho, will take some extra  time.  If mine, I  would not let her be bred back right away.


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## redtailgal (Oct 16, 2012)

greybeard said:
			
		

> foot said:
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Greybeard.........I wish there was a like button for your post!


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## Sugarbushdraft (Oct 16, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Greybeard.........I wish there was a like button for your post!


We need one like on BYC... IMO...


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## foot (Oct 16, 2012)

Its good you weaned her calf and put her in another pasture alone.*Symphony* She Is not on her own , She Is In another pasture with another calf  There are thee In that pature I have not seperated her from her calf, There Is  her/Her calf and a Third calf, that I,m weanig But I did like your coments.


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## foot (Oct 16, 2012)

by the way the little bull calf (not hers) that was sneaking milk from this cow is not in the same pasture as she is.  He is left to feed off his momma only...and doing just fine.


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## Cricket (Oct 16, 2012)

Thanks for clarifying that--I was kinda scratching my head!


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## foot (Oct 17, 2012)

Okay so yesterday it seemed this cow was looking a bit better already but now today she looks really thin again.  We have been feeding her (and her calf eats some too) Sweet feed and Calf Manna, all the hay they can eat and they still have green grass to graze on.  What is the best thing to feed her to put weight back on her?  We were thinking adding some cracked corn to the rations.  Tonight I gave her some B-complex gel I had on hand hoping it would increase her appetite.  I have seperated her from her calf for a little while...we will see how long that last without her stressing out.  Right now they are both content to eat hay across the fence from each other---maybe I will get lucky and she will at least have a break for tonight.  The calf is doing just fine.
I also ran a ketone strip under her urine. It tested out at a small amount of ketones.  Is this a bad sign and how do I correct that?  Gosh feeding cows is such a science.  All the info we can acquire from you old time cow hands is appreciated.  We are going to blood test her and hope she has not been bred back already we have to wait for the calf to be 75 days old before drawing blood though so it wont be for another week though. She weighs approx 350 pounds.  Yes, she is only 36 inches tall measured behind her hump.


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## WildRoseBeef (Oct 17, 2012)

The only thing that comes to mind when I hear about something like this is that she is putting all her resources that she is gaining from what you are feeding her into milk production.  It's obvious to me because she does have a 10 week old calf at side, she's not dry at all.  If she were dry I think she may be gaining more than what she can gain now.  I hope I'm not repeating what someone else has said already, but regardless it's just something I thought I'd mention.

You might want to look at this link for information on ketosis: http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/80900.htm


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## foot (Oct 17, 2012)

..I here and have read all that you say thank you ...We are now considering weaning the calf early or controling the number of feedings that the calf gets per day.We are open to any and all surgestions we just do not want her to go downhill anyfurther.


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## greybeard (Oct 18, 2012)

foot said:
			
		

> Okay so yesterday it seemed this cow was looking a bit better already but now today she looks really thin again.  We have been feeding her (and her calf eats some too) Sweet feed and Calf Manna, all the hay they can eat and they still have green grass to graze on.  What is the best thing to feed her to put weight back on her?  We were thinking adding some cracked corn to the rations.  Tonight I gave her some B-complex gel I had on hand hoping it would increase her appetite.  I have seperated her from her calf for a little while...we will see how long that last without her stressing out.  Right now they are both content to eat hay across the fence from each other---maybe I will get lucky and she will at least have a break for tonight.  The calf is doing just fine.
> I also ran a ketone strip under her urine. It tested out at a small amount of ketones.  Is this a bad sign and how do I correct that?  Gosh feeding cows is such a science.  All the info we can acquire from you old time cow hands is appreciated.  We are going to blood test her and hope she has not been bred back already we have to wait for the calf to be 75 days old before drawing blood though so it wont be for another week though. She weighs approx 350 pounds.  Yes, she is only 36 inches tall measured behind her hump.





			
				greybeard said:
			
		

> The fat can be replaced fairly easily and quickly with higher fat and good  protein content feed regimen. Don't rush it--she lost it slowly--bring it back the same way.  Muscle replacement tho, will take some extra  time.  If mine, I  would not let her be bred back right away.


(This might get long)

You won't see a big change or improvement overnight or even over a 2-3 day period. That doesn't mean tho, that change or improvement isn't taking place. Again--This will take some time.
Be careful about separating cow and calf for too long if you have never seen the calf drink water. Even in mid Oct, dehydration can come on quick--even with a drought hardy breed such as Zebu. And, I'm sure you know you shouldn't wean 'too' early, even if you can get the calf on grass, feed, and hay, because it's rumen hasn't had time enough to fully develop so it can properly process all it eats. 

If already bred, Don't worry about it. The first 90 days of fetal development aren't all that hard on a momma cow--even a nursing momma. 

I think calfmanna is 25% protein-3% fat- ~4% fiber. Additionally, you are already feeding sweet feed. 12-14% I imagine.  That should be more than adequate to meet "high protein-higher fat".
Cracked corn is not going to add much to that--if anything at all. Low fat (3%)and low protein (3%) and high in starch.  She will only eat what she has room for, and unless you are feeding only a limited amt of sweet feed and manna, you may actually be decreasing her fat and protein intake by substituting cracked corn. And about 1/2 of that protein in cracked corn is the type that has to be digested in the intestine--not broken down in the rumen as with other feeds.  This is why corn is always a supplement and not a substitute.

Pneumonia is hard on any system--harder than most people think, and is hard to get completely over. It's one of those illnesses that I personally believe nothing ever completely recovers from--people or animals. Things 'recover' from it, but I believe it simply has lasting effects, whether it's viral, bacterial or both. 
Give this some time Foot. And..

This, is a trap we all fall in to. We watch something everyday, whether it's a plant, a tree, a cow, or a child and we see no change. Done it myself way too many times. The change is taking place, but because it is so gradual and in such a minute amt/day, our little pea brains often don't recognize it. But let someone who hasn't seen the object of our concern for a week or a month come by, and they see it right away. (Parents don't think their infant son is growing much or properly but the grandparents come visit and it's "Oh MY how he has grown!!"
It works both ways, both on improvement of conditions and on decline. Anyway give this reovery some time and if you really don't see improvement over the next few weeks, and  have to, even tho they like to get in our wallets deeply, get the vet to take a look at her. 

Not directly related to your cattle, but a little about grass and winter forage in the Southern US:
Keep in mind, that this time of year, the coastals, Tiftons, Bahia grasses are already beginning to shift their energy into the root systems instead of the leafy parts. I'm not a scientist or a biologist, so I can't explain how the plants know, but it has something to do with the shorter days and the less direct path of the sun's rays. The grass still looks green here, but on close examination, it's more stemmy, and the tips of the leafy parts are very dark. Not near the protein and nutritional value of that same pasture when 2nd cutting of hay time came. This is wqhy so many folks like 2nd cutting hay instead of first or 3rd. 1st cutting is mostly water and 3rd is too much stem.  It's for this reason too, that we need to have our cattle in good condition already (or nearly so). If you watch your cattle, you'll probably see they spend more time foraging now and less time layin around. That's because it takes more lbs of late fall grass to provide their nutrition than it did in late spring on the same pasture. Later on, even if we don't have a hard frost or freeze, it gets even worse. The grass may still be there, but nutrition wise, there ain't much to it. 
Further North, it may be different, but that's what happens here at my latitude.


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## foot (Oct 18, 2012)

Greybeard---thank you!  You seem a very knowledgable cattleman.  We just love this little cow.  We haven't seen her yet this morning since it is so dark but I did shine a flash light and can see her and her calf side by side on the fence line.  There was no mooing and crying last night from either of them.  Now I know from experience that the calf well could have nursed through the fence.  But we just wanted to see momma have at least a little break.  This calf, though she eats the feed and hay and drinks water is still quite demanding on her momma.  More so than any of the other calves we have here IMO.  Momma was content to eat and not be bothered I think.  Today we will let the calf and momma back together and maybe continue to separate them at night.  We will continue feeding as we have been and practice more patience.  We are probably overly protective of this particular cow since we have seen her at her worse and do not want to go there with her again.  We'll skip on the corn and stick with the calf manna and sweet feed and all the hay she can eat.  Thanks again.  We will try to post a pic of the fat little calf later.

Foot....


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## greybeard (Oct 18, 2012)

Well, I don't know about "knowledgeable"..and I don't consider myself a 'cattleman' either. I'm just someone that has cows, been around 'em most of my life, and probably always will have them. A good year is one I don't lose any $ on 'em--a great one is one I make a little. Most years are just good years.  I know much  more about forages than I do about cattle and their ailments--never had much problem with 'em as long as I kept the pastures in pretty good shape, vaccinated and practiced good parasite control.  Cattle are just  mowin machines and amazingly efficient at what they do--and they really rarely have problems compared to other livestock.  I've heard lots of people over the years say it, and I believe it and try to practice it:
We're grass farmers first--livestock owners second.


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## foot (Oct 18, 2012)

Great stuff We have only been with these Mini Zebu for five years now and have found them easy to maintian with the exception of this on great little cow.  She does throw beautiful calves with ease and is really easy to handle.  Before the Zebu we had meat goats and I tell you they were alot of work every day.  We love the cattle.  We dont have a ton of land so the mini's worked well for us.  We would love to learn more about pasture management in this area.  We seeded with Bahia last year and felt we had pretty good pasture this year.  We were getting ready to lime the pastures and usually sow some rye a little later to give them all some green year round.  Any tips will be appreciated.  We are new to the south and learning everyday.  and GreyBeard tell us about the Chinese Tallow.  We have one on the front of our property.  Dont know where it came from it was just there one day.  It is not very big and is a very pretty tree but alot of people say it is really bad news.  Why??   Oh here Is a picture of the little calf that I said I would post


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## greybeard (Oct 18, 2012)

Nice looking calf and does look healthy. 

As far as tallow trees----I've diluted and deflected this thread from the original subject too much already. I'll try to get time tomorrow to start a new thread in the proper section and we can discuss invasives and how to (try) to control them, tho from my experience in the past, there isn't much appetite here at BYH for talking about herbicides. We'll give it another  shot tho.


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