# Last straw, last chance.  Can't contain my goats.  Any ideas?



## Pinecones (May 22, 2019)

I LOVE my boys.  I bottle raised them, they've been my pack goats for 5 years.  They are polite and friendly and affectionate and quiet.  Intelligent, excellent foragers.  They come when I call.  The best goats I've ever seen!

But I'm at my wit's end.  It's rehoming time if I can't find a solution.

Currently the only fence that will "keep them in" is woven wire fencing with logs tied to the bottom perimeter, and 2-3 strands of hotwire to keep them away from it.  The problem is only our smallest enclosures have solid wire fence.  Enclosures less than 1000sq ft.  Or the one around the orchard.

For several years now hotwire has been a dream come true.  The miracle fencing I always hoped for.  I was able to totally phase out solid wire fencing and pay pennies per foot for electric wire.  Worked like a charm!

They've been in a 2~ acre wooded pasture for a year now.  It's 12 strand 6' tall hotwire (alternating hot/ground), with additional strands ran where needed (dips in the ground, etc.)  It's on a 6 joule charger pumping out 10,000 volts.  The lowest lines are as close to the ground as I can get away with.  It worked like a dream.  Until now.
Now, they don't care about the shock.  I've been patching, amending, and tightening the hotwire everywhere I could see any potential escape route, trying to figure out how they constantly get out.  So today I stalked them through the woods and watched.  They literally just WALKED through the fence.  Right next to the charger where it's blasting electricity out.  The shock doesn't phase them anymore. It's apparently worth enduring to get out.

They have a goat paradise; several acres of forest with a fresh mountain creek running through it, all you can eat hay, mineral blocks, loafing sheds they share with 3 other goats...  And they want to LEAVE.

Anyway.  I refuse to make them live on a lead or lock them up in one of our little pens.  I'm also confident that neither would contain them.  They can get out of a halter if they try hard enough, no matter how tight I make it.  Forget collars, too, they'd strangle themselves.  And they're experts at hog tying themselves with their leads.  If I lock them in a solid wire pen with hotwire combo I have NO DOUBT that they would someday manage to get out.  One of these boys has climbed vertical chainlink.  And OSB.  He can untie knots from rope and undo gate latches.

And there's no way we can afford to hard-wire several acres of rugged terrain pasture.  We were about to fence in a new pasture that's like 4 acres and turn them loose on that!  But now... what's the point?

I don't know what to do.  I watched my boys walked through 10,000 volt hotwire that has no more than 3-5"  between alternating hot and ground lines.  Any closer and they'd start grounding out, I can't add more lines :/  And I don't want to.

Any ideas?  My next option is rehoming them.  I can't have them destroying my gardens and orchards and greenhouses or sheds, dancing around in the road, or getting eaten by dogs or cougars...


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## Baymule (May 23, 2019)

That is why I have Sheep. No help for your frustrations, but when I was trying to decide which one I wanted, posts like yours steered me to Sheep. I’ve never been sorry, I love my sheep. 

It sounds like you have the best fence, the only alternative is a cage with top and bottom. I have no doubt those crafty creatures would tunnel out.


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## B&B Happy goats (May 23, 2019)

I'm  sorry,  i love our goats and they don't  try to escape  ever .....they are ND, little girls.....mabey your boys need a distraction....lady goat ?


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## greybeard (May 23, 2019)

The old adage around here is:
_If you have a fence that will hold water, it will hold goats_
History has shown I do not.


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## Pinecones (May 23, 2019)

Haha.  Most of the sheep owners I know have a "no goats allowed" policy on their farm 

I know that some part of this is probably the fact that they're Lamanchas.  I'd read plenty that Lamanchas tend to be a love/hate breed.  My boys are unbelievably smart and keenly aware of their surroundings.

These two boys are brothers.  Wethers.  I've had a few different herd setups and they've had does come and go.  They've never 'liked' any other goats.  They're "two musketeers".  They mostly just bully other goats away and try to be aloof together from the others.  Right now I have these two standard Lamanchas and 2 mini lamancha does (why do I do this to myself?)  The mini's are almost just as bad, but I can more easily justify penning them up because they're so tiny. Penning a 40lb goat in a small-ish pen seems more humane than penning a 230lb goat...

I had Angoras for awhile.  They NEVER tested the fence.  There were times I left the gate open and they couldn't be bothered to come out!  They were excellent milkers and did well in the mountains with me.  Problem was they were screamers.  I don't like screaming livestock.

I thought about trying another breed.  I've always pined after alpines as milkers and packers, but it's really hard to read about 'typical' breed dispositions...


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## Goat Whisperer (May 23, 2019)

Have you tried clipping them? They may feel the jolt a bit more....

We've had hundreds of goats and it's pretty rare for them to escape, though I do understand your frustration! We had this happen with our sheep. Couldn't keep them contained, they were always getting out. The left a bad impression on me- I'll never have sheep again.

Lamanchas ARE smart. Ours can unlock gates. If they wanted to get out, they sure could. 
Has anything changed recently? Our goats are creatures of habit. If the routine gets thrown off they are pretty sure the world is going to end 



Pinecones said:


> It's on a 6 joule charger pumping out 10,000 volts.


Did you put a fence tester on it to double check? How is the ground? How many rods? Is the soil damp or dry?


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## Sheepshape (May 23, 2019)

Now I'm remembering why I no longer have goats.....I have never had a problem with my sheep.....they don't wander off even if I leave the gate open (I think they know my neighbour doesn't treat sheep in the same way). Actually, that's not 100% accurate....my rams have jumped the fence a few times, but, even then have come back when I offer them their favourite treats.

I'm thinking along the lines of Goat Whisperer, though. Have they still got their 'bits', and have any nannies come into pheromone-sniffing range? Any paradise for the male will include access to the female....so....any ladies around?


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## Pinecones (May 23, 2019)

I appreciate the intelligence of goats.  All the sheep I've worked with are DUMB.  I'm not fond of that.  To each their own 

New changes; the does just kidded and are in a small pen up the hill since their tiny 1lb kids are like crunchy coyote snacks.   Other than that, not really.

Charger; We've got 4 long copper rods by the charger in a stream bed that's wet year-round, as well as a second set of copper rods a few acres away in a moist area by the greenhouse.  Plus our ground lines attach to dozens of fence posts and probably a hundred trees. The fence pops very hot, I just got hit again the other day  >______> 

My boys don't run away.  I would actually be more okay with that.  They escape and come straight to my living area and start destroying everything.  One ate the corner off of a vest on the clothes line the other day, part of a 5 gallon bucket, some of the greenhouse, ran off with a shoe, got into the greenhouse and topped the asparagus, several shrubs, and ripped out a few tomato plants...  this is his MO.  "Make the humans mad at least once per day".  It's what fuels his soul.  That is literally the reason he escapes.  Not to explore, not to find more food, not to run away or go elsewhere.  But to find ways of upsetting me e_e  And They're happy to come right up to me when I call and let me lead them back to the pen because they know they can just get right out again and do it all over!

Yes, the boys are wethers.  They were surgically castrated at 4 months old.


Sooo.... I was wondering about hobbles?  At first I found the idea abhorrent.  But as I think about it, it might be my last compromise.  Any experience hobbling goats?


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## lovinglife (May 23, 2019)

I think a field fence outside your hot fence is your only option at this point.  If they can't shove their way through the hot wires fast they should learn to stay put and be good.  LOL  Also if you can, get them good and wet, make sure you fence is good and hot, maybe keep some moisture in the ground around where they like to go through.


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## greybeard (May 23, 2019)

Learned behavior. You aren't going to change it at this point. I'll put up with lots of things from an animal, but continual escape artists aren't one of them. 
A cull factor of high degree. They get out, a vehicle hits one and it's a financial liability you just don't want. With so much plastic on the front of today's cars, it don't take much to have a $3000-$5000  body shop bill or insurance claim.


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## B&B Happy goats (May 23, 2019)

Hobbles.....nope, I would send them to freezer camp first., and if you can't  eat them , get the feild or horse fence, or shave them so they relearn to "respect" the hot wire......again.


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## Pinecones (May 23, 2019)

I would be looking at $1,500 to fence this smaller area and over double that for the larger pasture :/  That's not doable for us.  This is steep terrain and it sucks up the linear foot with fencing.

I know I'm not going to change them, just hoping I can adapt to contain them somehow.  It would be an easier decision if these weren't pack goats with 5 years of training and conditioning.  Replacing them with new packers means new bottle babies and another 3-4 years before I can put weight on them.  
We've been through this almost every spring.  They up their game, I have to up mine.  I really thought electric had solved the problem.

Sooooooo....  For the hell of it I made some hobbles today.  I feel guilty about it but also...  it was so satisfying watching the naughty boy try to bolt towards the house but only manage a fast shuffle.  His hackles were flared up and he was not pleased with the new incapacity!  He will take it as a challenge and spend every moment learning how to manipulate them so he can master using them.  I've already watched him practicing a goofy sprint up and down slopes and over logs, seeing how far he can push them.  
The theory is that if they can't STEP through the fence, they can't do it quickly or without touching a lot of wires in the process.  I'm keeping a sharp eye on them, it's been a few hours and so far they haven't tried it.  I hate the idea of leaving them in hobbles all the time, but maybe it could be a happy medium for when w're not on walks or hikes...


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## Pinecones (May 23, 2019)

I will also think about shaving them, that's a good idea.  They're fairly fluffy...


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## B&B Happy goats (May 23, 2019)

Pinecones said:


> I will also think about shaving them, that's a good idea.  They're fairly fluffy...



Please  shave them...I have had to shoot a goat with a very broken leg....not fun (broke 3 places)
Probably would be worse if I thought I had done something that contributed  to a broken leg.....


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## AmberLops (May 23, 2019)

I agree with shaving them....I think that's worth trying before anything else.
Since they're so confident now about walking right through the hot wire, the 'new' shock might just hurt enough to make them not want to try it again for quite a while 
And I agree with @B&B Happy goats ...my neighbor once hobbled one of their goats and when it tried to run down the hill at feeding time...it went rolling down the hill and broke its neck. I wouldn't hobble!


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## B&B Happy goats (May 23, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> I agree with shaving them....I think that's worth trying before anything else.
> Since they're so confident now about walking right through the hot wire, the 'new' shock might just hurt enough to make them not want to try it again for quite a while
> And I agree with @B&B Happy goats ...my neighbor once hobbled one of their goats and when it tried to run down the hill at feeding time...it went rolling down the hill and broke its neck. I wouldn't hobble!



Poor neighbors  goat


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## B&B Happy goats (May 23, 2019)

My neighbor broke a goats neck basically  the same way.......thankfully  it was before  I moved here,


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## B&B Happy goats (May 23, 2019)

@Pinecones, my comments are in no way ment to criticize  you, I respect your time and training you have put into getting them trained for trail., and I understand the fustration of them getting out ! I would be pissed off at them for sure., don't  think you CAN'T  change them...you can retrain them to respect the hot wire fence, give them a show cut, short, so they feel the fence......they will change with a few good reminders shocking them ...
Please let us know what you decide to do and how it works out....best of luck to you and your boys, Barb


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## Baymule (May 23, 2019)

I've seen cattle wearing a yoke on their neck, basically a "Y" shaped wooden contraption with a cross bar at the top. They can't get their head through the fence. Maybe make it out of metal to light 'em up?


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## greybeard (May 24, 2019)

Baymule said:


> I've seen cattle wearing a yoke on their neck, basically a "Y" shaped wooden contraption with a cross bar at the top. They can't get their head through the fence. Maybe make it out of metal to light 'em up?


Yep, and often, they basically have to lay down or at least get down on their front 'knees', turn their heads sideways to graze. Yokes used to be really common and I've seen some that looked torturous. Still, they work. Seen some made out of lightweight PVC on dogs too. Those were 3 sided, kinda in a 3 sided star shape.


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## Ridgetop (May 29, 2019)

I have seen pix of those too.  But when they hit the electric fence with them, the PVC will not transmit any charge and will probably pull the fence down so it will ground out  Now you have to repair the fence as well as recapture the goats.

What kind of posts do you have supporting the hot wires?  Is it a battery charger?  Could you put up a short woven wire fence 30-36" tall along the bottom with hot wire above it?  That would cut the cost, and they couldn't go through that so quickly.  Also you mentioned that you have to put logs at the bottom of the fence.  Are they crawling out?

I don't think it is the breed.  All goats are escape artists.  So are some horses and mules.  They have prehensile lips that can maneuver locks!  Electric wire fencing is really not effective on goats, other than as a top and bottom line and to stop them rubbing on it. 



greybeard said:


> Learned behavior. You aren't going to change it at this point. I'll put up with lots of things from an animal, but continual escape artists aren't one of them.
> A cull factor of high degree. They get out, a vehicle hits one and it's a financial liability you just don't want. With so much plastic on the front of today's cars, it don't take much to have a $3000-$5000 body shop bill or insurance claim.



Sadly I agree with Greybeard.  If you can't re-fence your entire area, fence a smaller part with no climb and keep them in that small area.  If they still get out, rehoming may be the only way to go.


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## Jan Lyon (May 29, 2019)

I have one large Boer male goat that I adopted because his owner couldn't contain him.   I have nylon ropes running from tree to tree, t post to tree, tree to basketball hoop, etc. all over his head by three feet or so.  I have a big collar on him and a lead that runs from that and is clipped onto the overhead lines with hardware that allows it to glide along the ropes.   He moves freely along the lines and is able to run, eat, and lay down.  (The length of the lead is important here.)  At night he is in a pen constructed of three rail fence with hardware cloth, and an overhead roof.  He is happy on his "zip Lines" because he can move around, run and play without hobbles.  Not sure how many you have to secure, but thought I would offer my solution. It has worked for me for two years now.


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## Baymule (May 30, 2019)

Welcome to the forum @Jan Lyon we are glad to have you here!


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