# Rescue LGD persnickety...



## TMChickensLGD (Jul 13, 2018)

We adopted a GP (mostly if not all GP). Sweetest most affectionate dog. Probably 4 months old. He hates a leash, won’t walk on a leash. Can’t stand being tied up. We made him a nice bed & stall in barn with a small pool & a fan. He prefers that. We can’t progress towards any training, he just lays down, not food motivated. Tried training without a leash, he runs off. Literally. Always comes home. He will walk around with you all day as long as he is free to do what he wants. First time he wants to chase a guinea he takes offf and then keeps going. Any ideas? We live in a very rural area with NO trainers nearby. Send him to a trainer? We only need him to guard chickens and someday guineas.


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## Bruce (Jul 13, 2018)

@Southern by choice has a lot of experience with LGDs and GPs in particular. Perhaps she (busy as she is) will see the tag and comment.


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## Latestarter (Jul 13, 2018)

Greetings and welcome to BYH from NE TX! So glad you joined us. Sounds like you're going to have your hands full with your new dog. Since you have no history of parentage or where he came from/background, there's no guarantee he even has LGD traits... It could prove even worse depending on what bred he is crossed with. Sorry, just the truth. I suggest a very well fenced area for him to stay in. It will need to be very secure as he's already demonstrated that he's a wandering spirit. There's a wealth of info, knowledge and experience shared in the multitude of threads. I suggest the LGD threads specifically. Browse around and see what interesting stuff you can find. By all means post away when the desire strikes you, especially if you have questions (provide as much detail/info as possible and pictures truly help)... With all the great folks here, generally someone will respond in no time at all. Please make yourself at home!

PLEASE put at least your general location in your profile. It could be very important if/when you ask for or offer help or advice. You know, climate issues and such. I recommend at least your state as most folks won't be able to figure out where if you put anything more specific (county, town, street, etc) by itself.  Old folks like me  will never remember & look there first. To add it, mouse hover over Account top right and a drop down will appear. Click on Personal Details and scan down. You'll see the spot for Location. Then go to the bottom and save changes.  Thanks! Hope you enjoy the site!


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## BrendaMNgri (Jul 13, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


> We adopted a GP (mostly if not all GP). Sweetest most affectionate dog. Probably 4 months old. He hates a leash, won’t walk on a leash. Can’t stand being tied up. We made him a nice bed & stall in barn with a small pool & a fan. He prefers that. We can’t progress towards any training, he just lays down, not food motivated. Tried training without a leash, he runs off. Literally. Always comes home. He will walk around with you all day as long as he is free to do what he wants. First time he wants to chase a guinea he takes offf and then keeps going. Any ideas? We live in a very rural area with NO trainers nearby. Send him to a trainer? We only need him to guard chickens and someday guineas.


First of all, welcome to this forum, I think the Admins require you to do an intro post over on the "welcome" page first so you might want to
check that out and say hi and where you are from.

I have many questions for you:

Did you adopt this dog from a rescue/shelter or individual?
Did they say why the pup was being given up?
What is your prior experience with dogs? And LGDS if any?
Is your place fenced, as in dog-proof fencing? If it isn't you are probably going to be in for some issues because you can't keep an LGD
home without some kind of fencing (as in, if the dog decides to chase off a predator, there is nothing to stop him.)
Did you know that? Do you have plans of fencing your property if it is not?

You say you "can't progress towards any training because he just lays down." Explain to me please, what you mean by that? What you
are expecting the dog to do? If it is hot, he's probably uncomfortable, and wants to lay down to cool off, yes?

Training LGDs to guard poultry is a very big commitment. I don't know if you've taken the time to search term this forum to read
the many other threads about LGDs guarding poultry or not. I will post an article from a magazine I did some years back.
You should read it.
I am not attacking you so don't take this the wrong way. But I'm hearing a lot of expectations out of you for this pup, that are not in line
with where he's at. You just brought him home, he needs time to adjust, to get to know you and the farm/homestead/whatever, and to
toss him into guarding fowl right away is not acceptable.

I'm also curious as to how much you asked the people about him before you decided to bring him home, as in were the parents working
LGDs or not? Why was he given up? Etc. Etc. Were they informative, or did they just look the other way and basically say nothing or ?

A lot for you to digest. But these dogs take that. They take thinking, patience, more patience, and time. Lots of it. No quickie training tricks.
And guarding fowl is one of the hardest to do especially if the pup is already 4 months old and had no prior poultry training, or came out of non-working stock.
I could go on but won't. I will leave you with the article. Please read it. I just sense that you bought this pup home and have unrealistic expectations of it.
I hope you will slow down, read what I post here, and really take a step back, a deep breath and approach this responsibly and seriously. No regular dog trainer
is what this pup needs, no.
You are the trainer.
What this pup needs is for you to "empty your cup" and learn how to understand him and make him your partner, and trust you.

Brenda

A preface to this article: the woman written about has four LGDs from me. They all came from proven, working lines.
The first pair of pups I started on fowl here on my ranch. The second pair she got (due to a divorce) were also bred by me, but she
took them and furthered their poultry training, as they'd already shown great aptitude and interest in guarding flocks in their original home.

She was a first time LGD owner. She leaned heavily on me for advice and support.
And she succeeded. It can be done. But it takes time and work and dedication.

Hope you will read what's here and continue your learning adventure!







*Buckeye Enthusiast Keeps Heritage Hens Safe
With Livestock Guardian Dogs*


*By*

*Brenda M. Negri with Barbara Judd*
Copyright 2015 Backyard Poultry Magazine


You can hear the dedication and sound reasoning in Washington farmer and heritage Buckeye breeder Barbara Judd’s voice when she says why she uses Livestock Guardian Dogs to keep her rare breed of poultry safe from depredation:


“Buckeyes were once in the Critical Category established by the Livestock Conservancy. Thanks to their Buckeye Recovery Project, the breed moved from the Critical to Threatened category on the Conservation Priority List. I am committed to always protecting all my charges, and the fact that this chicken breed is still considered “threatened” gives the importance of their protection even heavier weight.   I decided the best protection I could give them would be Livestock Guardian Dogs.”


Using Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs) to keep sheep, cattle, goats, alpacas, and other mammalians safe from harm is an age-old practice, although relatively (approximately 30 years) new in North America.  Some of the more common LGD breeds in use are the ever popular Great Pyrenees, Akbash, Maremma, Kuvasz and Anatolian Shepherd.  Rarer breeds such as the Spanish Mastiff, Pyrenean Mastiff and Karakachan are increasing in popularity and use.  Putting LGDs to work to guard poultry, ducks, turkeys, geese and guinea fowl is more of a recent movement in line with the increased number of hobby farms, small family ranches and homesteaders.  It’s a commitment of time, patience, and more patience, but LGDs can be successfully trained to guard poultry, and many have come to depend on their dogs to keep their flocks safe from depredation.


Barbara Judd agreed to share her story as to how she came to raising Buckeyes on her Washington farm, eventually choosing two sibling LGD pups and two adult siblings from my ranch and kennel operation in Northern Nevada.


“I had decided I wanted to breed Buckeyes.  I had fallen in love with their personality, and their story is intriguing as well,” says Judd.  “Buckeyes are a notably personable breed, very active and noted for being especially vigilant in the pursuit of mice.  They also are very friendly with people and lack the tendency to feather-pick ach other. The males emit a full range of sounds beyond those typical of many other chicken breeds, including a dinosaur-like roar!”


Judd subsequently got on a wait list for chicks from Laura Haggarty and Pathfinders Farm in Kentucky, and received her hatchlings in spring of 2014.  Recently Judd moved to a 55 acre farm she calls Froghaven near Salkum, about an hour north of Portland.  Here she plans to increase her Buckeye flock.  “My goal is to become the go-to person for Buckeye chicks and pullets in Western Washington.  I love this breed; they are a great dual-purpose chicken for homesteads and fit in well with a back-to-the-farm sentiment.”  Barbara further adds, “The cocks can grow to 8 or 9 pounds and are good meat birds.  While as layers they are not quite as productive as a White Leghorn, for example, I understand them to live and produce for a longer period of time than the breeds that were developed for their egg-laying ability alone.”


Barbara’s new farm has a host of predators and wildlife, as did her previous one.    She admits to not having given much thought to predators at first, but one day commented to a friend, “If I lose a bird to a predator, it will be that one”, pointing out one of the gold sex-links she had.  Less than a week later, she discovered a pile of gold feathers, not 20 feet from her house, in the afternoon.  Her dire prediction had come true.  She immediately began researching how to keep her chickens safe. “My chickens were not raised to be coyote food,” she quips.


Judd read about Livestock Guardian Dogs, “But I was extremely put off by the prevalent and popular descriptions of hands-off training and minimal human interaction. Any dog I own is a part of my family, and I felt the hands-off, do-not-touch descriptions I read just didn’t make sense for us.”


Later that summer she lost another hen to a coyote.  Now, she was determined, as well as furious, and bound to find a solution.  Judd spent the evening researching LGDs on the Internet.


She continues: “This time, as I looked I discovered another perspective to owning LGDs, living with them and training them, one I had not run across before.  I found Brenda Negri’s website for her Cinco Deseos Ranch in Nevada where she’d been raising LGDs since 2009.  On her site were several articles she’d authored wherein she expounded at great length about socializing LGDs with people, about LGDs being part of the family, a component of a team, not just a disposable tool or something to be kept at a distance.  She reared litters in a huge pack of working LGDs and spoke of how they were mentored and shepherded along by her older, seasoned dogs, and spoke of the continuity and consistency this produced in working pups. Her website was full of information on having LGDs as part of a small farm, small acreage, as well as the rare Spanish breeds she specialized in, being more suitable for this type of duty.”


As it happened, I had a litter of LGD pups on the ground at the time, sired by my trusted old Great Pyrenees, Peso, and a rare Italian import Pyrenean Mastiff female, Atena. Barbara sent me a puppy application, “The stars aligned,” she chuckles, and the Judds became proud new owners of Lucy and Patty, nick named “The Pockets” as they were the two smallest pups in the huge (16 puppies) litter.  As if predestined, they also hung out together and were inseparable.  Barbara took the pair home at about ten weeks, and LGD Chicken Guarding 101 began!


Patty and Lucy’s litter had already been exposed to my own mixed flock of 40 Cochin, Brahman and Polish layers, with daily visits into the coop and chicken yard.  Barbara wisely took my advice, and bought two siblings who roughhoused with one another and wore each other out playing instead of taking out their young energy on livestock and fowl.  The pups had also been exposed to neighbor children, cattle and sheep and were showing great promise as guardians.


“Which brings up another point,” Judd adds.  “The importance of selecting a knowledgeable and reputable LGD breeder.  I had always had rescues as pets….these dogs were to be working dogs, not pets.  They were to be socialized and part of the family but I needed them to be LGDs – guaranteed – not maybes.  I needed to be certain, and not risk they’d turn out to be chicken killers instead of protectors.  So I bought LGDs from a reputable breeder, who had both parents, who were working parents, descended from working lines.  And she had references, and many, many clients who came back time and again to buy dogs only from her.  That was how reliable and trustworthy her dogs were.  Actually, the price I paid was not significantly more than which the rescue organizations ask, and in the large scheme of things is an insignificant cost when you consider the lifetime cost of caring for a pet – or as I’ve heard in poultry circles, ‘It costs the same to feed a breeder’s chick as it does a feed store chick.’”


Once settled in at the new home, Patty and Lucy’s training continued with older, calm hens who were less flighty and thus, less inclined to tempt the pups into chasing.  Judd made the training time a “treat time” by positive reinforcement.  Each pup received a treat before each short, 10-15 minute “class”.  Soon, they were reminding her it was time for “school”.


“I knew this process would take weeks, if not months,” Judd adds.  She kept the chickens and pups in a small, very manageable area, and sat with them.  No distractions were allowed: no pet dogs, no children.  “We spent time just hanging out with the chickens, and always ended on a positive note before they got tired.”  As time progressed, “The Pockets” became calm and confident around the fowl, remaining alert and interested, but no inappropriate behavior. Judd increased the time the pups were with the flock gradually.


“I came at training the pups in a slow and systematic, careful manner.  I learned from Brenda, from previous dog trainers and read the books by noted dog behaviorist, Turid Rugaas that Brenda insisted I read.  The pups became part of the daily chicken routine. As puppies, they needed protection too as they were far too young to fend for themselves, so they were never left alone overnight, for example.”


Judd was also learning about unique LGD behavior, which is markedly different than non-LGD breeds. “I can say they are nothing like other dogs I have had.  They won’t fetch, they don’t play tug o’ war.  They DO seem to notice every detail around them.”


Judd’ observations are accurate.  LGD breeds guard on ingrained instinct, not so much training, although the owner will enable, foster and encourage that guarding instinct with positive reinforcement and gentle reprimands when a pup makes a mistake.  Tying a dead chicken around a pup’s neck is an oft-quoted “solution” for problems but only encourages confusion and distrust in the pup and shouldn’t be done.  There are no short cuts to doing  “Chicken 101” with LGD pups, and the owner has to commit to the time and patience it takes.


One night, Judd woke to one of the pups barking at a bookcase.  “I had moved a large photo onto that bookcase, and Lucy noticed – something’s not where it belongs!”


A more telling incident happened a week or so after Barbara brought The Pockets home:


“We’d spent a lot of time around the chickens, in their run or out foraging.  One early evening we walked by the run and no chickens were in sight.  Patty was immediately stressed!  She sat down, whining at the run.  The chickens had simply put themselves in the coop for the night, so when the hens poked their heads back out to see what the commotion was about, Patty relaxed and was immediately satisfied.”  Judd continues, “You could see the wheels turning in Patty’s head – ‘_Oh that’s where they are.  OK, everything is fine now!’  _I was amazed and impressed.  These were certainly the right dogs to protect my chickens.”


From the time I began raising and using LGDs, I have always understood the importance of running these dogs in the right numbers – just as they are in Spain and other countries where the pastoral life is still alive and very much a fabric of their society. I’ve continually lectured my clients about the advantages of running enough LGDs to properly cover the acreage, terrain, predator load and stock they have.


Dogs, like humans, must sleep and rest too, and one LGD cannot last long if it is expected to carry the load of three or four dogs.  In addition, should one dog become ill or injured, by removing him from duty, an operator’s flock or herd becomes immediately more vulnerable to attack. Where predators can easily take down one LGD, a pack of three or four dogs will present a much more serious deterrent to threats.  On my ranch, my several dogs work in  “shifts”, so there is always coverage, 24/7.  Some dogs may do a “perimeter patrol” farther out at the edge of my 5 acres while the others stay closer to the flock, barns, and my house. Although my closest neighbors continually lose goats, sheep, horses, calves, pet cats and chickens to packs of coyotes, feral dogs, mountain lions and birds of prey, I have never suffered a single loss here.


Barbara Judd was a willing and capable pupil and took my advice about “enough dogs” to heart.  A few short weeks after the move to the larger farm, Barbara brought in two young adult Spanish Mastiffs I had bred who had to be rehomed due the owner’s relocation.  Agostin and Argenta were from my first purebred Spanish Mastiff litter, who had been guarding horses and chickens in Montana.  When she got wind of the pair being up for rehoming, and their proven experience as fowl guardians, Judd seized the opportunity to add two “chicken broke”, mature guardians, dubbed “The A Team”, to her larger acreage with its more serious predator load.


“My plan is to eventually add a small herd of goats to forage the brush and weeds, and perhaps a heritage breed of wool sheep,” Judd says.  “I knew with the larger farm acreage and more livestock, that I needed more protection than just two dogs, and the sibling pair Agostin and Argenta fit the bill to a “T”.”


As introductions currently progress at Froghaven Farm,  “The A Team” is getting to know “The Pockets” and all is going well.  The Judds will keep their heritage flock of Buckeyes safe and sound from depredation with four very devoted Livestock Guardian Dogs. “Since we brought Lucy and Patty we have never lost a single bird,” Judd says, and with the addition of two more dogs, they won’t be losing anything in the future, either.



*Sidebar/Bullet Points*



·     Buy pups who are only purebred or crosses of purebred, recognized LGD breeds.  LGD breeds crossed on non-LGD breeds are unpredictable and high risk.

·     Buy from established breeders who will give references, customer support and have a proven track record of producing good guardian dogs.

·     You get what you pay for. Quality LGD pups typically start at $500 and go up from there. Quality going adults can cost $1,000 on up.

·     Never bring a pup home younger than 8 weeks of age and make sure all puppy vaccinations are complete, as well as several de-wormings.

·     If possible buy pups that have been started on and exposed to poultry and fowl.  Make sure they have been regularly handled and socialized with people and are not skittish or frightened when approached.

·     Make sure your fencing is puppy escape-proof and secure.

·     Remember that rearing LGDs to guard poultry is a labor-intensive endeavor with no magical short cuts.  Patience, time and persistence are key to success.

·     LGD pups take up to two years or more to fully mature.  Don’t expect adult work from an immature dog.



*Recommended reading and related Internet links:*


The Livestock Conservancy: http://livestockconservancy.org


_Protect Your Poultry With Livestock Guardian Dogs_, by Brenda M. Negri, Nov/Dec 2015 issue of *Countryside Magazine*


_Sibling Success!  Advantages of Littermate Guardian Dogs,_by Brenda M. Negri, Sept/Oct 2015 issue of *sheep! Magazine *


_On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals_, by Turid Rugaas, Copyright 2006 by Dogwise Publishing


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 13, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> Greetings and welcome to BYH from NE TX! So glad you joined us. Sounds like you're going to have your hands full with your new dog. Since you have no history of parentage or where he came from/background, there's no guarantee he even has LGD traits... It could prove even worse depending on what bred he is crossed with. Sorry, just the truth. I suggest a very well fenced area for him to stay in. It will need to be very secure as he's already demonstrated that he's a wandering spirit. There's a wealth of info, knowledge and experience shared in the multitude of threads. I suggest the LGD threads specifically. Browse around and see what interesting stuff you can find. By all means post away when the desire strikes you, especially if you have questions (provide as much detail/info as possible and pictures truly help)... With all the great folks here, generally someone will respond in no time at all. Please make yourself at home!
> 
> PLEASE put at least your general location in your profile. It could be very important if/when you ask for or offer help or advice. You know, climate issues and such. I recommend at least your state as most folks won't be able to figure out where if you put anything more specific (county, town, street, etc) by itself.  Old folks like me  will never remember & look there first. To add it, mouse hover over Account top right and a drop down will appear. Click on Personal Details and scan down. You'll see the spot for Location. Then go to the bottom and save changes.  Thanks! Hope you enjoy the site!



Thank you for the tips. I updated my location which is Southern IL. 
We do know that Mom “was reported” to be full blooded as her & her pups were “dropped” off at the shelter. He does have the double dew claws and seems to have a lot of the same temperament from all of the literature I’ve read.

He is secured now in the barn in a fenced in 12 x 12 stall with neighbors of mini Donks-no access. We have a fenced in area we are hoping he will “patrol” of about 1.5 acres. It is not dog secure, just more of a defined perimeter. We have the Llama’s in there the chicken coop. We installed a containment center (controlled by collar)...we are working vigilantly 3 times a day to drag him out there and teach him the boundaries. I cannot stress how much he hates a leash! We were following the video exactly for training but we literally have to drag him. I have to admit he is minimally improving but still a challenge. Because he is so reluctant to train we have the collar on 3/8 for correction cause we don’t want to scare him. Since he does kinda stick close to us we tried w/o a leash and he runs right through it and off into the woods. 
Now I am reading electronic correction should not be used. We are getting so many mixed messages between all of the threads, books and websites that is why I reached out directly. The one thing that will remain consistent is that we will  never experience any regrets! We have faith in his guy and know together we will be successful!


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## Bruce (Jul 13, 2018)

You really need a dog proof perimeter fence. What is it now, 4' field fence? Would adding a hot wire on the top keep him in (until he tries to dig under)?

e-fence is tough with a GP, lots of fur on that neck. 

I doubt the "regular dog" training regime will be particularly successful. Not that they can't be taught some basic "obedience" but understand that "commands" might be more like "suggestions" to him. "Yeah, OK I guess I'll do that now". Forget the food training, scrub his jowls and ears. Praise is reward to GPs.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jul 13, 2018)

Excellent points @Bruce.
Please...take the shock collar off this pup ASAP. You'll never get him to go with you if that is what you are doing.

Don't drag him anywhere. Work on gaining his trust.

So this is your first LGD I take it, you didn't say, and you didn't say what kinds of dogs you've owned.
But LGDs are not like other dogs.
@Bruce  is right, dump the mindset about "dog training" as you think you know it.
These dogs work primarily off of instinct. They are independent, and not push button dogs like herding (Border Collies and others) dogs,
who you can micro-control their every step and move. Toss that idea out. Again: You have an LGD. LGDs are not like other dogs.

Going to say it again: stop trying to train, first start getting your pup's trust and getting to know him.
The rest will come later. And get your fences secured or this will be all for nothing.
Search outside of this forum for fencing ideas such as Premier 1 Supplies. Look at what they have.
I'd put the link up but typically the Admins take links off.
Google it. But if your pup is already taking off into the woods, yikes...
You gotta go back to square one here. Put your fencing as your first priority, please.
That is something every shepherd should do before they even bring home an LGD, but its too late for that. Keeping him penned up all the time will result in issues later. So you need to work on fencing fast....
Also search term fencing in this forum. You'll find plenty of posts. But check out Premier 1 too.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 13, 2018)

Thank you so much. The collar is for a perimeter fence but has literally been on him for less than 2 hours in the 2 weeks we have had him. We will abandon that idea. We have a nice fence that could be reinforced but that would take time and lots of money, we have 70+ acres we would let him roam if he wants to. Ideally he would keep the chickens safe during the day and at night he could roam. 
Yes my first LGD, not my first dog though. We are not even comparing the two for how we are attempting to train them. We have a fenced in area but not where we would like him to stay forever. 
So all LGD are fenced in completely? We didn’t get that impression in the literature. If we were to do that we could have secured it for the chickens. We thought we could teach him his perimeter..guess not. 
So, fence ASAP. It would have to be pretty tall then? We want to do whatever we can to make this successful. 
So if the chicks fly out he can’t go get them? We were hoping he could keep control of them. Sounds like no? 
I know I sound naive but I really am trying to do whatever to train him and make life good for him & the chickens.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 13, 2018)

BrendaMNgri said:


> First of all, welcome to this forum, I think the Admins require you to do an intro post over on the "welcome" page first so you might want to
> check that out and say hi and where you are from.
> 
> I have many questions for you:
> ...


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 13, 2018)

Thank you so much! In all of my excitement in receiving replies, I missed this one. 

Thank you for your attention to detail, I will do my best to respond to all questions.
I already added my location to my profile; Southern Il. 
There was no reason given why the dogs were in the shelter; heck they thought the boy dog was a girl. 
We have multiple fences on the property. We have Llama’s, Donks and Goats who take care of themeselves. We were looking for a LGD to help us with out poultry. Did we install a specific dog fence? Nope. Unfortunately the books I read were about LGD’s in areas where fences were not required. They specifically referenced letting their dog(s) roam the property and “patrol” the perimeter. 
Ultimately, I can see us fencing in another area that is specific for the poultry & LGD, per the advice received. 
I really wanted a gentle giant who would protect the poultry and roam the property at his own will. 
Goals change and we will adapt to make sure all our Dolly, Tina, Marsha, Rhonda, Billy, Molly, Cora, Tracy, Frances, Daisy, Maggie, Ollie & Coty! are Safe and Happy!


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## Bruce (Jul 13, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


> I know I sound naive but I really am trying to do whatever to train him and make life good for him & the chickens.


Not at all, everyone starts at square 1!!



TMChickensLGD said:


> I already added my location to my profile; Southern Il.


Didn't work. When it does it will show up in the data under your userid on the left. It goes in the "Personal Details" tab of your profile.

LGDs, and some breeds more than others, see their territory as anything they can see. And of course the farther they move from the barn, the more they can see and thus the more they have to guard. When people talk about their LGDs guarding the perimeter, they mean the inside of the perimeter fence (of whatever enclosure you have defined for them), not some arbitrary invisible line demarcated by a surveyor that you teach the dog and it respects. 

So yes, you need to fence him in. That fence can also be the first line of defense keeping predators out. You said you have 1.5 acres fenced now. What is that fence? You can get by with a 4' field fence topped with hot wire so he won't climb over. Some have done it with pure electric but that isn't a good option with chickens. Also note that LGDs can be "trained" to guard poultry but it isn't their natural "herd animal" to guard. Your dog is young, most likely he will want to chase squawky chickens that are running (in a panic from the dog or for other reasons because they ARE chickens after all). Expect to spend a lot of time with training him to chickens, and sadly as I understand it, plan to lose a few in the process. 

But ... the dog will guard his territory (young for that yet) and if the chickens are inside a fenced area that is inside a larger perimeter fence, they will be guarded (other than agains avian threats) even he doesn't go inside their area.


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## Latestarter (Jul 13, 2018)

I personally applaud the fact that you are approaching this with an open mind and willingness to do right by the dog. Those of us with LGDs can attest to the love bond that will grow between you over time if you grow together properly! There is NOTHING like an LGD in the dog world... They are special and unique. They are independent thinkers and will only work with you, not for you. You have to form a partnership with the dog and build trust both ways. Initially, he will need boundaries. It will take time for him to learn what you expect of him and learn to trust you as you learn to trust him. I would suggest a minimum 4' (5' is better) woven wire fence perimeter to "keep him" where you want him with a hot wire on top and ~12" up from the ground to prevent digging out. These dogs don't really reach maturity until 18-24 months, though they can and will do their jobs quite effectively by 6 months. Some are patrollers (seems like yours) and some are watchers who will stay close to the herd they are protecting and watch.

Again, there is a wealth of info here on this site and I'm sure you'll learn a lot. Don't be afraid to ask questions! Many here will help as best they can.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 14, 2018)

@BrendaMNgri 

Thanks you for the article and the input. So much of the literature contradict itself we are having to take bits and pieces and hopefully make up a whole picture. 



BrendaMNgri said:


> One night, Judd woke to one of the pups barking at a bookcase. “I had moved a large photo onto that bookcase, and Lucy noticed – something’s not where it belongs!”



This article implies that the LGD was in the House; which goes directly against everything I’ve read. They either bond to us and the pups inside OR the animals outside. Either way is fine depending on what you expect their role to be; the inside LGD could get bored but could also become content. 
We have people wondering our property at all hours of the day, we own cabins and many people come and interact with our pets. There was hot wire around every fence and we deactivated it and will not be using it. We cannot risk children coming into contact with it. 
It is very perplexing to me that it would be acceptable to put hot wire up to keep a dog in but not use an electric collar to contain him. Also the guidance not to “drag” him on a leash is confusing. If he doesn’t want to be on a leash but will NOT stay with us on a routine walk or play/sit with us quietly AND we are not to keep him confined to12 x12 stall when we are not interacting with him; What Are We To Do With Him to gain his trust? We didnt get him from a trusted breeder and we knew there would be challenges as he was a rescue with an unknow past. We can’t let him just run free. We can’t let him not be on a leash. We can’t not put him up in a confined area to keep him safe. This is all very confusing. 
We will have a lot to consider with all that’s been shared and we thank you all.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 14, 2018)

Here’s  Scout at his very best. One of our best nights with him was a few friends hung out in a big field around a bon fire and he stayed with us (or within eyesight) the entire night. Patrolling around all of us and the fire periodically and completely content. 
He absolutely loves Dolly (our llama) and she loves him.


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## Baymule (Jul 14, 2018)

On the inside the house thing, our male GP, Trip usually comes in the house every night for a nap. He asks by peering in the window from the front porch. We let him in, he slinks in like a big white lion, sprawls out in the floor and is out in seconds. He wakes up, is antsy and we let him out. 

He is an independent dog. He jumps in and out of the pastures at will. He jumped out of the property once, which resulted in a series of Come To Jesus meetings. I walked him in the outer fence, stopping between T-posts, shaking the fence and scolding. I called him to me, petted and praised, went to the next section and repeated. For 3 weeks! He got the message. 

We have our 8 acres and all cross fencing in non climb horse wire. It is 2”x4” and 4 feet high. We have Sheep, chickens, horses and occasionally feeder pigs. 

We also have a female GP, she never comes in the house and was uneasy when we tried. She doesn’t jump fences, but will dig out in a heartbeat. Likewise she had to be taught her boundaries. She stays with the Sheep, fiercely guards chickens, and kills every snake she finds. 

A good fence is a must. Electric fence/collars won’t work. The dog sees a predator, blows through the non existent fence, but then won’t come back in because he remembers the shock. They must have a visual barrier. 

Your dog OWNS EVERYTHING. He owns the dirt under his feet. He owns everything he sees. He owns everything inside his territory. He must have a fence barrier to keep him from owning everything for miles around. Make sense? 

Some day, he may casually place his foot on top of your foot. Rejoice when this happens. For he now OWNS YOU. He is not yours, you are his.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jul 14, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


> @BrendaMNgri
> 
> Thanks you for the article and the input. So much of the literature contradict itself we are having to take bits and pieces and hopefully make up a whole picture.
> 
> ...



I have bred LGDs for a decade, other dogs before that, my whole life.
I have some LGDs who spend time in my house when it's too hot for them outside. 
In no way, shape or form has it dulled their guarding instinct. In fact, it seems to intensify it.
Anyone who thinks letting an LGD in the house now and then will ruin it obviously either has some very inferior LGDs or cannot understand
how smart these dogs really are.

Confused? This is why, I encourage people to not just read forums.
This my dear is where you get to learn how to practice discernment. As to what information you take as bonafide and good, and what you do not. And you
should consider the source, always. Which is why I always encourage people to read books, not just spend their learning time online. Books and magazines.
There are lots of ag magazines, journals, quarterlies etc. you can subscribe to and even access to some point online but get off social media and go to more
sources that are based on magazines, some of which have been around for decades.
Typically authors who write for them are vetted out and are experienced sources of good information, not rampant speculation or bad info.
Yes, very few people have time to wade through all the stuff on a forum this big, which is why I say, open yourself up to other venues as well.

Kids and hot wire - hey, it only takes one zap to teach them to leave it alone. They learn quick. Like dogs. Put signs on it, "electric fence" and tell their
parents to read the signs. I know I sound brutal but out here in the Big Nasty Desert idiots on ranches don't last very long... (wink)

Slow down, slow down. Your mind is going a mile a minute and I appreciate your zeal to learn but take a breath and stop and just be with that
pup. Learn to just sit with him, without expectations or training or do this, do that all the time.

I have a blog, it's listed on my signature. Spend some time on it. There is a post about introducing LGDs to guests and visitors on it.
Read about the canine body language and communication signals that my customer used to effect a seamless intro of his family
visitors to his LGDs, and what he did to make it work. 

And don't forget to breathe!


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## Bruce (Jul 14, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


>


That is SO *P*icture *O*f the *W*eek worthy!!

It is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when learning, especially now with the internet where there are more "experts" than you can shake a stick at. There is one lady that tells you your hens will lay every day if you feed them cracked corn, whole oats and bread  And sadly many people follow her site, I seriously doubt they have the healthiest chickens around. 

Certainly learn from those here that have LGDs. People that have them AS guardian dogs, not backyard pets, know them best.


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## Mike CHS (Jul 14, 2018)

Great post Brenda


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## Mike CHS (Jul 14, 2018)

Bruce said:


> That is SO *P*icture *O*f the *W*eek worthy!!
> 
> It is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff when learning, especially now with the internet where there are more "experts" than you can shake a stick at. There is one lady that tells you your hens will lay every day if you feed them cracked corn, whole oats and bread  And sadly many people follow her site, I seriously doubt they have the healthiest chickens around.
> 
> Certainly learn from those here that have LGDs. People that have them AS guardian dogs, not backyard pets, know them best.




_I'll second that!  Great pictues_


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 14, 2018)

Thank you everyone! 





BrendaMNgri said:


> Confused? This is why, I encourage people to not just read forums.



There are several books to name a few; Livestock Guardian Dogs by Jon Mitchell, New Improved Great Pyrenees Dog Training and Understanding Guide Book by Vince Stead and Life with Livestock Guardian Dogs by Barb Dickenson. Researching through the website Livestock Guardian Dogs  which also has a wealth of information. I can’t wait to read more of your blog too! 

Thank you for realizing we are working really hard to do the right thing..and need to just relax. He is so easy to love and such a free spirit. Great advice. 

@Baymule 

Some day, he may casually place his foot on top of your foot. Rejoice when this happens. For he now OWNS YOU. He is not yours, you are his.

This was so powerful and went straight to my heart for he is like this silent, powerful force that has been so patient with our stupidity. I picture  him shaking his head after we leave him for the night...saying to himself  “tomorrow they might get it”...

We have 7 pastures and we are going to fence one in for him & the chickens. We have a few that would keep him in but not the chickens; that’s what we were hoping he would help protect them by not letting them run amuck. 

If we keep him in a pasture with the chickens how will we ever get to socialize like you all do; letting him come in if wants, or roaming the property or just hanging out with us and the other 3 dogs? We literally can’t let him out of the pen; if we do he stays close and lays in the shade while we work ourside. But after a bit he is gone to play in the creek in he middle of our property and wonders home when he wants. No leash either as he hates it. 

Thank you all for the kinds words about his pictures. He is vey playful and photogenic. We are just going to enjoy him the best we have a put his job on the back burner for now until we earn his trust!


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## Baymule (Jul 15, 2018)

What other animals do you have besides the chickens? When we bought this place, there was no fence at all, so I opted for the non climb horse wire with the 2"x4" holes in it. I figured it would keep everything we had, down to the chickens IN and it has. There is one pesky armadillo that has a permanent hole dug under the fence on the outside parameter on the south side, that comes and goes. The sheep and dogs are blocked out of that pasture at night, so Mr Armadillo gets to come and go in peace. LOL

Our entire place is fenced. It gets to be a pain at times, always having to get out to open/close the gate, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Coyotes are bad here and it helps keep them from coming up to the house. They could jump the fence, but with the two Great Pyrenees barking a warning, they don't. When I was coming up here working on the house before we moved, coyotes came right up to the house at night.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 15, 2018)

@Baymule
What other animals do you have besides the chickens?
We have 2 Llama’s (very docile), 2 mini Donkey’s, 3 goats, 4 barn cats and 11 guineas (free range day-cooped at night, they were missing in the am, we think from coons).

We do run a recreational cabin “resort” on our property. People & kids coming day and night especially for the pets, so any electric fencing is out. Also, one more caveat is that all of our cabins are dog friendly which means people walk around with dogs on leashes all the time! 
I included a pic of the property that have the “pasture” circled. We have 4 in x 4 in goat pasture that we could re-fenced  in 2 x 4; buts it the most highly visible of all the property. We also have a pen in the back that is 4 x 4 that we could refence to 2 x 4 but it backs up to the forest and at any given time in the evening there are 15-20 deer in it. Also I think it is more predator ridden due to the forest. Small predators like coons, opossums, skunks and fox. Coyotes don’t get to close. All cabins have fire pits and they  are going all the time.No worries for any of the pets except the Poultry. 
We spent time today with him just hanging out while we did some landscaping and he was great. Still struggling to get him to come to us. One of our house dogs helped with that, she came up to  us when we called and when we heaped praise on her he wanted some of that action so he came to us too. 
We are just going to be patient and let him come to trust us and build our fence and let him be himself. We have the rest of our lives. The chickens are alive and safe so ther is no hurry. We are pretty determined for us all to be successful, whatever that looks like. There is no one size or rule that fits every situation. 
I love all of your stories, examples and helpful suggestions! I can’t imagine finding a better group of folks to discuss this situation. All of your encouragement is so appreciated as well!


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## Bruce (Jul 15, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


> I picture him shaking his head after we leave him for the night...saying to himself “tomorrow they might get it”...


I think you figured him out! Eventually you will get over your "stoopid" and he will be able to work with you on his terms 



TMChickensLGD said:


> No leash either as he hates it.


I think you'll just have to work on that slowly. At some point you will need to take him to the vet or something and you sure don't want to have to pick him up and stuff him in the car. 

I am a bit concerned about a bunch of random unknown people and their dogs wandering around, even on leash. If he is guarding his animals he won't likely be happy to have all those potential threats too close to them without you being present as well. Perhaps the more knowledgeable folks will have an opinion.

And yes, I think we do all appreciate how much you are willing to learn and work with him. He will be worth it I'm sure!!


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 15, 2018)

@Bruce 

Thank you for the kind words. We are worried about the people and their pups too. We share information with everyone before they arrive and we will include an except about Scout. It is also the reason I would prefer the more “hidden” pasture but worry about the predators in the forest and the deer that hop that fence. I’m not sure how would he react but that is the deer highway through the property. We have a lot of bonding and thinking to do about where is the best location.


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## Bruce (Jul 15, 2018)

If Scout is out in that pasture, you won't have deer in it any more. And if the hidden pasture is "off limits" to the guests, you can hot wire it to help keep predators out.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 15, 2018)

It does sound pretty ideal except that the wildlife is a big pull to our visitors and keeps many coming back. At night you can walk the gravel road and shine your flashlights out in a field and see 30 glowing eyes of the deer resting out here. Nothing off limits to the guests as we have a 2 mi perimeter trail around the property but the pasture is off the beaten path.

Kinda sounds like I want to have my cake and eat it too . 

If we did 5 ft high 2 in x 4 in fence would we still need electric?


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## Bruce (Jul 15, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


> Kinda sounds like I want to have my cake and eat it too .


That isn't unreasonable 

Regarding the fence, I don't know. "No climb" for a horse isn't necessarily "no climb" for a dog. Good running start, paws make it to the top, he might be able to scale it.


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## Latestarter (Jul 15, 2018)

Perhaps instead of a leash/collar, a harness might prove a better tool... My toli/pyr mix has a very big head but a correspondingly large neck... I can't keep a collar on him. He'll slide it right off unless I make it so tight it defeats the purpose of the neck padding/hair (damage prevention from biting animals) or would choke him. He doesn't mind the harness and the leash attaches at the top back so not pulling on his neck at all. I only put it on him when I need to take him off property so when he sees it, he knows he's going for a ride. Introduce slowly and with lavish praise and get him used to the harness first, leash later.


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## Baymule (Jul 15, 2018)

My male GP, Trip and female GP, Paris are two different dogs. Paris would be a raving lunatic at the people and pets walking around on HER property! Trip might bark at particular dogs if they came too close, but he is pretty laid back. He jumps the fence when people come over, to greet them. They open the gate, he stays in, they drive in, close the gate, and he follows them to the house. Then he pees on their tires and poops somewhere near their car/truck. He marked it as "his" and the poop is a warning to varmits to stay away.  So their vehicle is safe.

One of our neighbors has a French bulldog that comes to the fence to bark at Trip. They run up and down the fence barking at each other, it is a game they both love to play until they almost drop. Paris will play too, but she really means it. LOL

To train your pup to a leash, clip it to his collar and let him drag it. Maybe link several together for a long leash. Take it off when you are not with him, for obvious reasons. Maybe gently apply steady pressure on it from time to time. When he starts to resist, slack up. Follow him around, holding the end of the leash. Brilliant move to have your house dog help to train him!  

If he starts barking inappropriately at guests or their pets, go acknowledge him. Talk to him, tell him that it is ok. When mine are just barking stupid, I tap on the window, that is their signal to shut up and most of the time, they do. If they don't, it because there is SOMETHING. To train them, I tapped the window, then went outside and talked to them. If they started stupid barking again, I tapped the window, then went out and scolded them. I didn't yell or threaten them, just gave them that "I'm so disappointed in you" voice and they were crushed. It is very east to hurt their feelings.


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## Baymule (Jul 15, 2018)

We have chickens, Muscovy ducks, 3 horses and 10 hair sheep. From time to time we have feeder pigs.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 16, 2018)

Baymule said:


> To train your pup to a leash, clip it to his collar and let him drag it


This is a great idea and one we will try. We already switched to a harness, which he doesn’t like either. I think he may be part magician...one second he’s in it and the next second out. We only put it on him whe. We take him out of his area. 

I love Hair Sheep!! That will be our next project in a year or so. They are so cute and you don’t have to shear them. 

I love it that you all have such a bond with your pups; more of a mutual respect. Thank you for sharing your stories. 

Husband is stressing about where to put him and now I get to tell him to relax.


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## sfgwife (Jul 18, 2018)

This pup might have double dews... but his face, ears and legs make me think he has a lot of lab in him. If that is the case you are gonna have interestin times with him in with birds. 

The leash thing... let him drag one around with him attached to it. A long long one so he might feel “free”but really is not. When you do your chores every single day take him and his leash along with you. Do not pull and drag him. When he drops down make it a game to get him to come to you on it and praise him and find a treat he loves to keep in your pocket for when he comes. Use the same words every time you do this so he learns basic commands as well. Draggin him will only make him hate the leash more. A harness or gentle leader might work better for him than a collar. 

But before any real”training”of you happens on his part... he NEEDS trust you. Spend as much time with him as possible. In his enviornment not yours might help as well. But if he doesnt trust you and yours he will never be the lgd you want/need. One day he will own you not the other way round.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 18, 2018)

Thank you @sfgwife!

We let him drag the leash from his harness yesterday and he did better but still was hesitant. He’s not food motivated but he sure love a good jowl rubbing and praise. He loves people and man do they love him. He like no puppy I have ever seen. He doesn’t nip, jump up on people, he’s not hyper; just laid back and chill. Like a loose rubber band. 



sfgwife said:


> ears and legs make me think he has a lot of lab in him. If that is the case you are gonna have interestin times with him in with birds.



Lab would make me nervous. He has half heartedly chased the guineas but not caught any yet, thankfully! We are keeping much closer eye on him to try to prevent any future chasing. 

The trust is building everyday and we are really focusing on consistency and just hanging out. Yesterday when we took him for a ride in the side by side he put his big ole paw on my leg . He still needs help up in but likes to “go for a ride”. 

He is just full of personality and love but as stubborn as donkey! Prolly the most photogenic pup I’ve ever had. So regal.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 18, 2018)

I think the reason you may have gotten the wrong idea about Livestock Guardian Dogs is that some of the literature out there dates from 30-40 years ago when these dogs were first starting to be used to control sheep predator losses on large ranches.  The dogs were dropped in the middle of 1,000 or more acres with the sheep and the owner would return every week or so to leave feed in self feeders.  The dogs had no socialization, and owners were warned not to socialize them or interact with them.  The belief behind this was that they would bond to people instead of to the flocks.  This caused some problems, in some cases when the owners returned the dogs attacked them since the dogs did not recognize them.  The owners were unable to vaccinate the dogs, or supply vet assistance if they were injured.  On the other hand, the dogs protected their charges against both 4 legged and 2 legged predators. 

Times have changed, and now we know that LGDs need social interaction between both the owners and the flocks. Most  LGDs are on small holdings like yours and ours.  There are more neighbors, and more danger out there from traffic. You need to train your dogs to walk on a leash in an emergency or to restrain the dog while you are working with or moving your stock. You need to be able to interact with the dog and not get bitten.  The first LGD we bought 30 years was a Shar Planinetz x Maremma out of Montana.  On the day the dog was supposed to arrive at the airport the owner called to say that he had not been able to get the dog on the plane.  Apparently he went out to the 6 month old pup and managed to corral him in the barn.  When he went to catch him the dog bit him badly in the arm.  He was going to drug the dog and then ship him to me the following day.    He was a "Do Not Interact With the Dog" person because that is what _everyone_ believed at the time.  I told him I would wait another 3 months for a pup from the newborn litter.  When we got that pup my kids socialized him, but we kept him in the barn with the goats and sheep.  He turned out to be a great LGD even though I thought we had ruined him!  

Our next 4 LGDs were Great Pyrenees we bought from a Basque sheepman in Bakersfield.  Bakersfield is famous for its Basque population of sheepmen.  Naturally they have Pyrenees.  Mr. Ansolabahere used to take 5,000 sheep into the hills on leased government range land every year.  He had 10 Pyrs and 3 other Basques and they camped out for weeks at a time in the hills.  THERE ARE NO FENCES ON LEASED GOVERNMENT RANGE!  His dogs ranged free, around the outlying sheep.  They kept them safe by keeping all predators far away from the flock.  In one case his favorite male and best dog disappeared for a month.  Just as he decided that it had run afoul of a bear or cougar, an acquaintance saw an ad for a lost Pyrenees dog 50 miles away from where the dog disappeared!  When he went to claim his dog the people said they had thought it was lost and wandering so picked it up and took it to a shelter.  Luckily they put up a sign advertising the found dog.  This is one reason why Pyrs often have a reputation as roamers.  It is how they guard.  All the Pyrs we had were roamers, they could not be kept inside our fencing.  They could climb over a 6' chain link fence, and squeeze through a piece of stock panel missing 1 wire.  That is a 8' x 12" hole.  They are like cats and their loose skin and hair are an asset there. 

Our current dogs are Anatolians.  They are close guarding LGDs, sticking relatively close to their animals.  BUT if there are too many predators too close in they may decide to leave the property to drive them back to an acceptable distance.  Our bitch did this several times after the California wildfires in December.  Normally she stays inside the fence.  When she got out under the fence, she would come around and wait by the gate to be let back inside.

Quite frankly, I am in accord with Latestarter when he says he would be wary of letting the LGD loose among casual visitors and their pets.  Right now your pup is young but when he has attained full maturity he will not want any other dogs on his turf.  This is going to cause a big problem for your business if he goes after a client's dog.  Especially if one of your guests' dogs decides to chase your poultry or other animals.

Along with everyone else, I suggest that you fence the 1.5 acre field for the dog and poultry  Can you fence the back of your house to enclose an acre or so?  This way, you can socialize the dog and still have him in a fenced area.  Maybe you can relocate part of the walking path so as to avoid your fenced field. It is hard to know what to suggest without knowing your property layout. 

It sounds as though you are making some progress with the leash training and bonding of the puppy.  Yay!


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 18, 2018)

@Ridgetop Thank you for taking the time to share your stories. 

50 miles! I believe it! Our little guy wonders around too but stays close. 




Ridgetop said:


> It is hard to know what to suggest without knowing your property layout.



I attached another picture. You are correct that 2 of the books I read were larger areas and they did not fence. We have a livestock fence for our Llama’s (4 metal strands) that we were hoping to use as his perimeter. We mistakenly thought we could train him to stay in any fence if he knew his boundaries.  We also have a 4x4 in fence for our goats but that will not keep in the chickens. 

We really haven’t had any issues with guests dogs but you are right; it would only take one playful pup off a leash to chase the chicks and Scout would do his job. I’m not too worried about the people, he is super friendly and hope that we can ingrain that people are good. 

We are thinking to fence in the perimeter of the small field in the back of the barn. It’s off the beaten path, it will prevent all of the deer from roaming the property but it may be the safest for all. We hope a 4 ft fence 2x4 in works. We want him, the chickens and the guests pets to be safe AND happy.


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## goats4us (Jul 18, 2018)

Our LGD hated the leash when we first got her; breeder had never put a collar or leash on her. We left the collar on 24/7, but eventually switched to a harness as it gives us more control and doesn't choke her. She is not food motivated at all, but we found she is motivated to get out of her kennel. She is also very smart, so it didn't take her long to figure out that I was not going to let her out of her kennel until the leash was on. The first couple days I let her lead me around so she could get used to the leash. Once she got to know me better and trust me a little, I began to teach her a couple simple commands: sit and come. I use lots of praise. If she doesn't do something right I try to redirect her to the correct behavior rather than scold or punish. This method has been pretty successful (except for "sit", she will only do that one when she chooses,lol.) Within a couple weeks she was doing great on the leash and overall is very well behaved, though she is still only 5 months old. I celebrated, when during the second week and it was time for her to go back in her kennel, I went in it and called her and she actually came in of her own accord after only a little hesitation. Before that I had to pick her up and carry her in or haul her in with the harness, but I hated doing it. Patience and praise will get you a long ways with and LGD. It may take you a little longer before he learns to trust you and realizes he won't get shocked, but stick with it and you'll get there. As for poultry, I'm told not to expect to trust a dog with any poultry until they are at least two years old, and some are never trustworthy with them. So you have some work ahead of you there! We are also working on that. While ours isn't in with poultry, chickens are kinda silly and sometimes get in where they don't belong, so want to have her poultry-friendly.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 18, 2018)

I stoopidly thought we could have a gentle giant roaming the property keeping predators at bay, accepting guests and their pets and keeping the chickens safe. It is discouraging to have to pen him up for his life. Especially when he likes people so much.


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## Latestarter (Jul 18, 2018)

My Anatolian/Pyrenees (50/50) is equally a companion dog as well as a LGD. When I first got him, he had been living with the goats, his brothers, parents and other experienced LGDs. He was selected because I didn't have my goats at that time and therefore needed a companion capable animal as well as the potential LGD. I didn't get the goats until Mel was 2 years old. He is now staying with them but boy does he love to come inside for the AC when it's hot, for the warmth when it's blisteringly cold (used to be in CO), and just for GP when I have folks over. He knows @Devonviolet and her DH quite well and always greets them by front paws up on the fence so he can say hi face to face. There's always the possibility that your boy will be successful at ALL of the things that you wish from/for him.

They are extremely intelligent animals and are so eager to please once that trust is established. However, there are some things that are bred into them. Protection of their charges being #1. If a client's dog starts chasing or even looks cross eyed at your livestock, as an LGD, your adult dog will put himself between the potential threat and the livestock and escalate to whatever level is required to mitigate that threat. That also include any perceived threat against you or your family members. The dog owns y'all too remember... Most all of it will depend on his training.


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## Latestarter (Jul 18, 2018)

Just as an afterthought, I wanted to add that some LGD's seem to be "territory" fixated where others (like mine) seem to be "possession" fixated. The wanderers IMHO are the territorial ones and what they see, they believe is theirs to protect and defend. The problem with that being as they move, their territory expands, hence the fencing requirement. Mine started out in a fenced small area and initially he learned to open a door latch and escape to travel, but once I fixed that, he never tried to escape by going over/under fences. His area is now much larger, almost an acre with sight lines covering almost 10 acres (he will have access to those over time as I repair/replace fencing/gates). He has accepted his new space and does not challenge fences over or under, so I have not installed a hot wire. I recently had several of my kids, one's wife, and grand kids here and several times they allowed Mel to blow past them to escape his fenced area. He would then "run the perimeter" fence line smelling and marking and stay ahead of me until he felt he had checked enough, at which point he would "let" me catch him and lead him back inside the fenced area. Mel seems more attached to the goats, me, and my family members as well as my other dog and my son's 2 dogs which he brings here with him. I do NOT allow any other dogs into the fenced area that he is confined within to protect. He does come into and through the fenced back yard where he can play with the other dogs.

So this is to say that your boy may be capable of learning to be possession oriented vice territory oriented.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 18, 2018)

@goats4us 



goats4us said:


> I went in it and called her and she actually came in of her own accord after only a little hesitatio



Bet that was great moment! Love when they meet & exceed our expectations. Although it has actually lured me into a false sense of security several times.


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## Baymule (Jul 18, 2018)

You mentioned a 5 foot tall fence. What about putting up a 5' fence with a hot wire set at 4 feet with warning signs for the campers? People would have to reach over and in the fence to get hit by the hot wire. Yeah, I know, people are stupid, but tell them when they get there and put up warning signs.


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## TMChickensLGD (Jul 18, 2018)

@Baymule 

One thing we have learned is that no one is happy with what we do. It is such a catch 22..if we protect the guests dogs they feel we are abusing the pup by keeping him in a pen and then if we let him loose we putting heir dog at risk. Sigh. We are still thinking about the fence.


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## Baymule (Jul 18, 2018)

What about posting a print out about LGD's and your dog in your office for guests to see when they sign in/out? People are passionate about their pets and think their way is the only way, some are open to being educated about working dogs.


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## Bruce (Jul 19, 2018)

Baymule said:


> What about posting a print out about LGD's and your dog in your office for guests to see when they sign in/out?


Better to hand them a copy. More likely to read something they take with them.



TMChickensLGD said:


> We hope a 4 ft fence 2x4 in works. We want him, the chickens and the guests pets to be safe AND happy.


Consider the size of the dog as an adult when on his hind legs. A 4' fence without hot wire will not keep the dog in. A 5' might not either but you have a better chance.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jul 19, 2018)

Mike CHS said:


> Great post Brenda



Thank you @Mike CHS . I've been refraining from saying much more in this thread for fear of stepping on toes as I see it becoming
more and more complex. But here goes. For the OP:

1. Negative forecasting - guarantee that mindset will set you up to fail every time. I hear this with the constant "people are going to do this that blah blah."
How do YOU know what they will or won't do? Stop predicting what kids will do/won't do with the hot wire. Ditto for parents. Get hot wire. Get taller fence
as others have told you to do. 4ft will do nothing in the end. 
2. Guests coming and going from property with their dogs - ugh. I could write a book on that one (in fact it _will _be brought up in the book I'm doing now.) 
Defeats the entire purpose of having an LGD and sends major mixed signals to your dog...bad ones. In fact, makes me wonder why you got an LGD!
3. Others WISELY have pointed this out too - there is a high probability your "LGD" is a mix. Is there a reason you went this route instead of contacting a reputable breeder
of LGDs with proven bloodlines and low-risk pups? Why did  you feel you had to adopt this pup? JUST ASKING!
4. Guests are guests, period. They don't call the shots on your place, you do.

OK - that's it for my input!  I'm out of here and back to finishing my book. (I recommend you read it when it comes out. I'll post in here when it is available. Soon!)


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## AllenK (Jul 19, 2018)

All of our LGD's are naturals. We are fortunate to possess such wonderful animals. Our oldest is a 55 pound pitt/rottweiler mix who can make the ground thunder when running off a bobcat at night(Wise County Texas). I have been blessed to have such great animals. Even the lab takes perimeter defense seriously.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 19, 2018)

Please don't think I am judging or criticizing you in any way.  I just see some probable problems here.  We all want to help you be successful which is why we are all telling you that you have to fence to keep _any_ LGD in.  Wow, reading this back it really seems very negative,  but believe me I do not mean it that way. 

First, I have not found any of our LGDs to be food motivated.  In fact, they will receive the treat after sniffing it for a long time, then often drop it on the ground as they turn away.  At first this gave me serious self esteem issues!     They are affection motivated, but do not train like any other dog.  Not only do they train differently, but even when trained, only obey if they decide to.  If there is a predator they will not pay attention because they know their job is to drive it off.  If an animal is injured they will not leave it, even for their dinner.  They will come and get you if they feel it is safe to leave the injured or lambing animal. *Latestarter* is correct when he says that LGDs that are territorial protectors will widen their territory until they reach what they recognize as the maximum they can protect.  Our Pyrs protected 120 acres which we did not even own! 

Looking at the aerial picture of your property, is there any way you can extend the fencing up to your house so you can access the fenced area from a side door.  That way you can let the dog have some personal family time inside with you.  Maybe you can also extend the posts on the 4 strand wire fencing you already have and add taller no climb wire.  Our dogs come in in the evening after the sheep are locked up ad they enjoy several hours with family.  I assume (?) that you use the front of your house for the check in of cabin guests, so you can't fence it off completely.

With regard to the customers, I know it is business speak to say guests, but these are customers and I assume that this business income is necessary.  I am sure you have rules for your paying guests, just add those warnings into the rules.  Definitely hand out the LGD info and also a printed warning to your paying guests that if their dogs are running loose and enter a rancher's field they could be shot if they chase livestock.  If they have to sign when they come in that they have received a copy of the rules and agree to abide by them you will have some protection in case of a problem.  Also, put up laminated or weatherproof signs on the LGD fencing explaining what LGD dogs are and what they are used for.  A little education never hurts.   Right now he is a cute puppy, think about 2 years into the future when he is 100 lbs or more.  His size alone will be threatening.  If one of the guests has a dog that decides to go after the Pyr, he will defend himself.  I had my 80 lb. Weimaraner on a leash at a dog show years ago.  Another dog, up to then very quiet, lunged at him.  It was all I could do to hold my dog as he tried to protect me.  To protect yourself, you need to keep your gentle giant safely fenced.

This is a business, these are paying guests, not friends.   What policies and insurance do you have in place in case one of the guest's dogs bites some one or takes out any of your livestock?  Without fenced enclosures at each cabin are the guests letting their dogs out to do their business at night off leash?  That dog might decide to head off after the smell of your goats or chickens, or worse the neighboring rancher's animals.

I hate to be a downer, but the problem I see is that you expect the guests to be able to ramble freely with their dogs off leash (it sounds like) throughout your property and through the surrounding woods, etc.  Are you surrounded by private property or public land?  There are leash laws for some state and federal parks.  If you are surrounded by private land, are your perimeters posted so the guests will know when they are leaving your property?  In addition, if your dog runs loose on someone's land he could get shot.  If he decides to take out someone's animals, you could have major expense and legal problems.

Do you have experience living in ranch or farm territory?  Wanting your LGD to run free may sound like a great idea but it can cause a lot of problems for you.  Pyrs are usually sweet and friendly to people when socialized.  That is why we chose them in the beginning when we had 4-Hers and children's friends coming over all the time.  But they can be vicious in driving off predators.   This will include any dog belonging to a guest that tries to get poultry or other animals under the protection of your LGD.  In addition, adopting a cross breed means you have no idea of what the dog's temperament or guarding style is.  if you bought from a breeder you would have been able to find out.

We have 5'  oil pipe fencing with no climb wire around our property BUT there is a steep drop to the back of the property and a steep drop from the front of the property.  We are only accessible by cars and walkers for about 100 feet and there we have 6' fencing.  The slope of our property means that when we have our torrential tropical rains (yes we do have them in So Cal) it means that the steep surfaces slough off and end up against the fence on the downside of the property.  in a couple places the fences are now lower than 4'.  We have added taller poles to the existing poles and are in the process of raising the wire fencing to 7'.  We live in a very litigious society, and we don't want any trouble from neighbors.  We loved our Pyrs, but couldn't have them wandering the outside of the property like they did 30 years agur Anatolians were chosen this time because the stay with the flock.  When we have guests other than family, we kennel the dogs and put the sheep up in the fold.

I don't think there is any dog you can buy that will fulfill your hopes of having a dog that will stay within your boundaries _without_ a fence, mingle with your guests and their dogs, and still protect your animals and property.  You are making progress with the training, so keep up the good work and good luck.


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## goats4us (Jul 21, 2018)

TMChickensLGD said:


> @goats4us
> 
> 
> 
> Bet that was great moment! Love when they meet & exceed our expectations. Although it has actually lured me into a false sense of security several times.


It was a joy and relief. Before that I was wondering if any of the training was working at all, or how we were going to do this since she didn't respond to treats. But she's doing great; so responsive to praise and attention.


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## AllenK (Jul 21, 2018)

To me dogs just train themselves if you care just a bit about them. It is really hard to believe that I have a Chocolate Lab that thinks she is is German Shepherd. Please do not trespass on my property, as this dog will take action. She trained herself I never did, I just gave her love.


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## Beekissed (Jul 22, 2018)

Been spot reading about your pup and I have different experiences with LGDs mixed with Lab and also LGD mixed with LGD...VASTLY different experiences than are detailed here.  

Yours is just a pup, so this should be easier than getting an adult dog already trained/set in his ways and untrained.  If he's not food motivated, you are likely feeding too much...I've not had a dog of any breed yet that wasn't food motivated and that's a natural thing.  Especially Labs...haven't met one yet that wasn't food motivated.  

My current LGD~Anatolian/Maremma/GP mix is VERY food motivated.  

I wouldn't put him in a harness...harnesses are for pulling and gives him much more power, as it lets him pull with his chest instead of his neck.  Any time you see any animal pulling something, they are in a harness and that's the reason why....it helps them pull stronger.  

Teaching leash training is as easy as passing the leash through its own handle and placing that loop on the dog, making sure it's positioned up high behind the ears.  When they pull back, this tightens, when they move forward it loosens.  First lesson?  Move forward when there is a tug on the leash...this is his first lesson of all.  Don't drag, just a steady pressure until he takes a step forward...small piece of bacon if he does.  He'll get the idea. 

Here's a few pics of Ben as a pup leash walking with two individuals who had never walked a dog in their life, my very old mother and my very young granddaughter.  LGDs CAN learn to walk on a leash and do so very nicely, just have to have the right kind of teacher is all. 




 



 


 

Here's a thread documenting how I trained Ben up for guarding chickens, including leash training, obedience training, etc.  Even keeping him on an electric containment system.  https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/the-education-of-ben.31911/

The worst thing you can do is penning him next to the chickens where he can get by with all manner of bad behavior towards them~barking, lunging, pacing~while unsupervised and without anyone to correct the behaviors, so I wouldn't do that move...I see that a lot on BYC and such and it takes them YEARS to train a dog on chickens after that, if they ever really do succeed at all.  Especially as a pup...his first contact with the chickens needs to be very supervised and with an eye towards correcting any overt attention towards them, no matter the provocation.  

I wish you well with your new pup...it sounds like you are in it for the long haul, so don't give up, be strong, and enjoy the breed!  They are really cool dogs.


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## AllenK (Jul 22, 2018)

OMG you are so lucky to have an Anatolian. I wish I had one. I would trade almost anything I own for one.


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## Bruce (Jul 22, 2018)

You could buy one!


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## AllenK (Jul 22, 2018)

There are too many dogs to rescue down here. I could never buy one.


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## Bruce (Jul 23, 2018)

But if you have a specific need for an LGD, getting one from a reputable breeder is best. If you feel badly about doing that, adopt a pet dog as well.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 23, 2018)

Absolutely true.  Remember you are getting a _working ranch animal_, with a job of its own to do.  An LGD is not a "pet", it is a co-worker and companion.  As livestock raisers and animal producers we depend on our LGDs to do a specific job.   I rely on them to do it properly and they rely on me to do my part.  I recognize the change in my dogs' barks if there is a real problem and I go outside to see what is happening.  

Of any livestock, the most important investment is your LGD.  If you get one that you cannot depend on or trust, you will lose money, time, tears, and end up replacing the dog.  If you get one who is a cross breed that is unreliable, or has behavior problems that cannot be retrained, you will lose a lot of animals and have to get rid of the dog anyway.  So now your kind impulse has come to nothing and maybe the dog has learned some death penalty behaviors if it has learned to kill stock. 

You wouldn't buy a goat if you wanted to produce eggs.  If you need to pull a plow or a brush cutter, you are not going to tow it with a Volkswagen some stranger offers you.  If you need a working cow horse, you are not going to buy a lame pony because it needs a home.  Buy the best you can afford in any species since choosing something just because it is cute or the runt will only leave you with heartache, and bills. 

Now, if you want to adopt a pet dog for the family too, that is fine.  One of our favorite dogs was a mini dachshund that was an abandoned adult female rescue from a puppy mill.


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## Beekissed (Jul 24, 2018)

I agree 100%.  Specific dog breeds were bred for a purpose and that purpose is usually a good one.  Those dogs are work partners, not pets, and a valuable asset to anyone doing the purpose for which they were intended.  If you hunt, you get hunting dogs...not a rescue hound of unknown parentage and/or traits.  If you need to herd something, you don't adopt a pitbull mix from the pound...you get a herding breed from working parents that are proven in that job.  

Same with LGD breeds.  Go to where they have the pups and see if the parents are on the premises, if they are working, how well they do their job, their temperament, etc.  You can pick up LGD breeds from rescue and you may just luck out...many do...but it's a roll of the dice each time you do that.  You could just end up with a very large, hairy dog that you have to keep indoors so it won't cause too much noise or trouble outside in your neighborhood.  

One thing I've found about all these LGD breeds...it takes a strong willed owner to work with them.  They don't respect anything less and if they don't respect you, you won't get the most out of your time together.  I think that's why so, so many LGD breeds are rehomed, due to having the wrong direction given as pups and growing confused about their job.  

Pets are one thing and you can pick up a fine pet from unwanted sources...I've had three such dogs and they were the best dogs I've ever had, but if you want to guard livestock, you'll want to get the best dog for that purpose.  I doubt if you'll find it at the pound.  It's possible, but not probable.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 24, 2018)

Great advice BEEKISSED!!!


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