# Question about pedigree & conformation



## lalabugs (Oct 9, 2016)

We are trying to decide on when or if to breed two of our doelings. 
We have chocolate who is a ND she was born 5/4/16. 
Willow Mini Nubian born 5/8/16. 

I have searched on BYH and googled, but the information on when to breed it seems is very controversial. 

Willow will not be bred until we have her G6S results back, if that comes back negative then we will consider it. Then we will be sending off her blood test for Cae, Cl & johnes next month. We will be sending chocolates blood off next month as well. 

Everything I have read some people wait for a certain age or age and weight. Then look at width? However I have no clue how wide they should look? 

Can you all give me some insight on this topic?


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## luvmypets (Oct 9, 2016)

For sheep I wouldn't breed anything under 8 months. I would think goats are around the same, but I will let someone with more experience confirm or deny my claim. Another thing to look at is size, do you have any adult does to compare them too? If it was me I would wait a year to breed.


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## lalabugs (Oct 9, 2016)

I do have an adult ND I can look at. I was told I could breed both in december. Just not sure if we should breed in december.


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## TAH (Oct 9, 2016)

I don't have any Minis or Dwarfs so I am not any help but I will tag people who are.

@Goat Whisperer 
@Southern by choice 
@OneFineAcre


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## lalabugs (Oct 9, 2016)

I weighed both today, Chocolate is 39.3 lbs, Willow is 59.8 lb


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## lalabugs (Oct 9, 2016)

I just found out that Chocolate was bred by the same people as honey. I have been in contact with the breeder to get Honeys paper work. However chocolate has not been tattood or papers sent in yet. Not really sure what's going on with it. I just wrote the breeder today, hopefully we will find out soon. 
We have a buck lined up for chocolate, however he came from the same breeder as honey & chocolate. Want to make sure they're not related. 
Also i'm new to ADGA and have no clue on what is considered great lineage for goats. Would anyone be willing to look at Honeys lineage and give me some insight? Would greatly appreciate it.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 9, 2016)

They are too young to breed right now
They are only 5 months old
A ND should weigh at least 40 lbs
We usually wait a year
I have had an accidental breeding at 7 months old
We have purposely bred 1 at 7 months old but she weighed 50 lbs


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## lalabugs (Oct 9, 2016)

oh no, i would never breed them right now. I meant in december, like I was told I could.


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## lalabugs (Oct 10, 2016)

Here is honeys pedigree. Chocolate is also bred from the same breeder. She is trying to find out who last had the papers. Also found out that the buck that we had lined up for december breeding was also bred by the same breeder. Once I can get chocolates pedigree i'll be checking to see if they are related at all. Any opinions on Honeys pedigree?


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## Fullhousefarm (Oct 11, 2016)

lalabugs said:


> oh no, i would never breed them right now. I meant in december, like I was told I could.


 
I've bred most of our Nigerians around 12 months and that has worked very well for us. I'll be breeding one at 10 months this month- but she was a big single doeling and weighs about what her Dam weighed full grown (at least before her Dam was heavy bred like she is now.) She was probably big enough at 8 months. I've also have 8 month olds that were still very much "babies" that I wouldn't have bred.

We breed our Lamanchas around 18 months, though I've had one I would have bred at 12 months if the timing would have been right.

Also, think about your climate and when you want babies. We aim for November-March, with an occasional April from a doe that didn't settle as planned. December is my favorite. Here in Florida our weather is cooling off, but not the coldest and the babies have all winter to gain well when parasites aren't as bad as they are in summer. If I lived up north I probably wouldn't like kidding in the middle of winter unless I had a really nice, big, warm barn! We also know that we can take vacation in August-October with no babies, less does in milk, and no one kidding. Makes it easier to find house sitters. Most of our shows are in Feb/March.

So, there is a lot to think about with kidding besides your does just being old enough. I've known some first time goat owners who didn't think at all about the fact they leave for two weeks every June and their doe kidded two weeks before that. Oops! They ended up paying me to dam/baby sit because they didn't think their normal house sitter would notice it something wasn't right.

As far as Pedigree Rosasharn is a very will known her in the ND world. They've been around a long time and many breeders use their lines. I'm not overly familiar with pedigrees in general. If you are looking for milk I'd try to find animals with a pedigree that shows milk stars and such. LA scores and show wins are nice, but much more subjective IMO. @OneFineAcre may be able to help you more with the pedigree.


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## babsbag (Oct 11, 2016)

I try to breed all my Alpines and LaManchas at about 8-9 months. This year for the first time I have some Minis and I am having a hard time judging their readiness as I don't know what to expect from them when they are full grown. I know the mini bucks are willing and able at 8 months and most likely much earlier. I also have a few late LaManchas that I got from a friend and I think that they may have to wait a year.


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## lalabugs (Oct 11, 2016)

We're breeding for milk production. I don't want babies born in heat. The heat gets so bad here. This year has been so off compared to the previous years. Everything I have been reading says to have babies when it's cool not cold, not hot either. For our area, come may it's HOT. 
Just went over our yearly weather report, I would not want babies born in the heat. November-April would be preferred kidding times.  Anything after April would just be to darn hot. With thinking about the weather. I wouldn't want to breed the girls until next year. Or else we're going to have babies born in the heat. Not what we're wanting. 

Vacation is not a problem. We don't vacation. If we get out to do anything we're always back home before it's dark. Everything would be revolved around our animals and kids. 

I did look up some of honeys lineage. They do have stars and LA, but honestly i'm just getting into goats. I see the numbers and everything, what exactly does it mean though? Have not looked into it. 

We have two minis and my husbands buck is now 8 months old. He's a big stinky guy. But to me his hips look narrow compared to his frame. Maybe i'm just over thinking this but i don't know. haven't had a full size goat either. Would anyone be willing to look at him? I can get pictures of him when I go out to top of waters. I'll get some recent pics of the girls. However with the weather, we'll just wait until next year with them. I know my husband will be disappointed. All he can talk about is learning how to make cheese. He's crazy about cheese.


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## lalabugs (Oct 11, 2016)

First three pics are of our 8 month old Mini Alpine buck. He's an F3.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 11, 2016)

I assume you are wanting to breed your ND girl to your mini buck? I think breeding a mini buck to a dwarf would be okay if the doe was a good size and easy kidder, but not for the first breeding. But, I am new to this, so I can't say.

If you want to know if they are related and they are ADGA papered than just type in their info here:

http://www.adgagenetics.org/PlannedPedigree.aspx

It will tell you what % of inbred offspring would be and if so who is contributing and you can decide from there.


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## babsbag (Oct 11, 2016)

A  mini buck would not be on the ADGA site.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 11, 2016)

babsbag said:


> A  mini buck would not be on the ADGA site.


Even if recorded? Sorry, don't know too much about this...


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## NH homesteader (Oct 11, 2016)

Minis can't be registered with ADGA. Hence the MDGA. I only know because I have two Mini Alpines.  Since he's an F3 you would have to go back a few generations to look him up on ADGA, assuming there's something  there to be found.


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## lalabugs (Oct 11, 2016)

No my husband was wanting to breed him to Willow who is a Mini Nubian (once G6S comes back and we do blood work after she's 6 months old.) That has changed to next breeding season, as Willow will not be old enough to breed. Plus don't want her kidding during the heat. 
Will be getting a Mini Alpine, but that's not until next breeding season. His parents are registered. We did not purchase his paperwork, but we can if we change our minds. Not sure who he is registered through though. 

I thought I had put the other pics up. Here are Chocolate & Willow.


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## lalabugs (Oct 11, 2016)

Pedigree questions was more about Honey (registered name Bay Breeze).


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 11, 2016)

Okay, so I am new to this to, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Honey's sire, Rosasharn SP Almond Roca, earned a +VV (85) on his LA as a yearling buck. http://auraacres.com/bucks.html 

Roca's sire, Sapporo, earned an EEE 91 on his LA!!!! 
http://www.oldmountainfarm.com/Bucks-Ref-RFSWSapporo.html

Honey's sire's dam, Rosasharn P Pennsylvania, earned a VEEA on her LA as a 4 year old. Here is a link to her page: http://auraacres.com/Goatpictures/AlmondRoca/Penny.html 

Honey's dam's sire, ROSASHARN SP HONEYS' CYCLONE, earned a ++V (83) as a yearling buck. http://auraacres.com/bucks.html

Cyclone's dam, Buckwheat Honey,  is actually pretty famous. She earned EEEE 91 on her LA as well as winning AGS national Senior doe and best udder. http://rosasharnfarm.com/wordpress/about/why-buy-from-rosasharn

I couldn't really find anything on Honey's dam or her lineage.

Here is a helpful page on LA's: http://www.betterhensandgardens.com/dairy-goat-linear-appraisal-2/

And pedigrees: http://www.betterhensandgardens.com/understanding-goat-pedigrees-2/


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## lalabugs (Oct 11, 2016)

The only thing I find for milk production is for the rosasharn does. Couldn't find anything other than Aura HC Toffee placed Grand Champion in the 2012 mid state fair. Other than that i'm not finding anything.


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## Fullhousefarm (Oct 11, 2016)

I'd also suggest thinking about if it's worth it to register the minis too. (MDGA) We had two mini-manchas this year and I didn't register them. Dam and Sire's are ADGA registered. However, they can't be shown in any shows/fairs around here and aren't really worth any more than an unregistered clean doe from good lines. We bred two Lamanchas  with a Nigerian because they didn't get bred to the Lamancha we borrowed but we wanted them to kid last year. The doeling sold to a repeat customer who wants home milkers for $200 and she was really nice!

I'd say the exception is if you are really looking to breed up to F3/4 minis and making a name for yourself in the niche market if minis. They are cute!


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## babsbag (Oct 11, 2016)

I am raising mini Alpines to try out in the dairy, but also hoping that they are easier to sell than the Standard sized Alpines.  I am registering them just because I can. Here is my buckling (one of two ) that I kept from this year to breed my minis too. I also bred an Alpine doeling yesterday...that wasn't on the agenda, but oh well.


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## lalabugs (Oct 11, 2016)

At this point we are not registering the minis, the breeder we bought our buck from did. We did not purchase his papers. We have talked about it. We do plan to breed up. I sent the pictures I posted on here, to the breeder. She gave me his highs and lows of conformation and what she would suggest to improve the breed. I am beyond appreciative for her to give this insight.

She has a couple does who are bred right now, that she feels the offspring should bring what we're needing to add to his conformation to improve the breed.
Right now we're really trying to decide what breed/s we really like the most. My husband is absolutely smitten with the Mini Nubian. He loves his mini Alpine buck, but so far he favors willow over all of them.

I love the ND. I also have a soft spot for boers.

@babsbag your buck is gorgeous.


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## babsbag (Oct 11, 2016)

Thanks @lalabugs   I think he turned out pretty nice. His sire is from another BYH member @ragdollcatlady and I am thrilled with all of the minis he sired. I am a little hesitant to breed too many of them until I know how well they will milk but I am definitely interested in a smaller goat to feed and to manage.  I was perfectly happy to raise standard Alpines and LaManchas...I can blame this new venture on @Goat Whisperer   I have another Nigi buckling, also from ragdollcatlady, waiting to grow up and he will help me with some genetic diversity if I breed more minis. 

I haven't bred any mini LaManchas, the vote is still out on that; I like to keep my ears segregated.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 12, 2016)

It's fun to find out what breeds you like best! So far I like my Nigies but I really adore my mini alpines.  I think they're going to be the future on my homestead.  Will know for sure when I breed and milk them.  Full size goats are too much for me,  and my Nigies are a bit...  Prima Donna like. 

I would imagine minis would sell better than full size goats.  The person I got my minis from had an easier time selling Nigies and 75% Nigies than minis. Like me,  she didn't  want to keep a buck bigger than a Nigie.


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## Fullhousefarm (Oct 12, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> It's fun to find out what breeds you like best! So far I like my Nigies but I really adore my mini alpines.  I think they're going to be the future on my homestead.  Will know for sure when I breed and milk them.  Full size goats are too much for me,  and my Nigies are a bit...  Prima Donna like.
> 
> I would imagine minis would sell better than full size goats.  The person I got my minis from had an easier time selling Nigies and 75% Nigies than minis. Like me,  she didn't  want to keep a buck bigger than a Nigie.


 
I think in many cases you are correct. We sell a lot of animals to 4-H/FFA show homes here, though, and for most shows including out state fair they have to be ADGA registered- so the "minis" don't work for a big portion of our customers.

OTOH, I've sold unregistered Nigerian doelings and mini doelings for $200 and never have enough- so there is a great market there too- and I've never been stuck with a bunch of boys since they are great pets and cute. We keep a CAE negative herd, so that also attracts buyers that have done a lot of research. A lot of the unregistered mini goats of any type come from untested herds.


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## misfitmorgan (Oct 12, 2016)

We had nigies and we have mini manchas and we tried mini alpines....so far they have all retained the nigie attitude which i dont like. Nigies are so cute and adorable and all but all the ones i have ever meet are like cats. They will come and hang out if you have food or might have food or if you wanna scratch them but if you need them specifically for something no way they will run like wild goats until you wanna scream. So like a cat wants attention when they want it and if they dont...forget you ya evil monster. I'm sure not all are like that but as i said the ones ive met were. Thats why we tried breeding mini alpine to see if they would have the super sweet alpine personality and while they were better they still werent sweet like my alpine girls.

For all of our mini's and nigies we did breed at 8 months - 10 months old. As far as the hot weather i wouldnt worry to much we have had ours kid with weather in the 90s and no issues. Course i also notice most goats kid in the evening, night or early morning. You have to decide what works for you though. We also have kids in febuary with temps to -45 so lol...maybe we live on the edge.


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## babsbag (Oct 12, 2016)

I too have had kids born in the heat...over 100° will no ill affects, but I don't have the humidity out here. I see the biggest problem with newborn kids that are born during the time of year when the temperature has dramatic swings, like 90+ during the day and 50° at night. 

My mini Alpines that are bottle babies are in my face all of the time, I see no difference between them and the standard sized kids, we'll see as they get older. 

I keep a clean CAE/CL/Johnes herd and soon it will be TB and Brucellosis tested and clean too. I also keep all my goats registered. It doesn't cost me to keep the paperwork straight and the buyers pay for the actual registration so no problem. I started with registered stock so I have just kept it that way; I figure it is one more selling point. I don't show or do LA or milk test and that would probably help move the kids out of here but no time or desire for showing.


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## frustratedearthmother (Oct 12, 2016)

We have a huge problem with kids born in the heat because of our ridiculous humidity.  For months this summer our temps were in the high 90's and with our humidity we had many, many days (weeks and months) of heat indexes over in the 110 - 120 range.  It is a recipe for disaster with newborns.   I try to kid in March (spring break). In fact, I need to get busy and arrange some conjugal visits.


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## babsbag (Oct 12, 2016)

Yes, I agree that there is hot and then there is East of the Rockies hot. One big reason I'm still living in CA.


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## lalabugs (Oct 12, 2016)

@babsbag Have you had any problem with kidding issues or parasites due to the heat? Want to make sure what we do is good for the girls. Being able to breed them to kid would be preferable. However don't want any issues for doe or babies.

The heat does get bad here. Once it hits 110 it's just plain miserable.  I'm not sure i'd want them to kid in that heat. How do yours do?


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## lalabugs (Oct 12, 2016)

@misfitmorgan Our ND are pocket babies. They're so sweet, always wanting attention. Have not had a problem with catching them yet. Not for feet trimming, giving medicine, nothing. This is what I love about them so far. I have a 3/4 ND 1/4 Boer buck, who is the sweetest buck here. He loves people. Even sweeter than the Mini Alpine. He will be bred to our boer doe, but that wont be until next year. We were suppose to get a 50/50 ND/Boer doe to breed him too, but she got killed. 
I think the mini manchas are adorable. We have not owned a La Mancha or Mini Mancha yet. We also just found out that the 4H here only shows Pygmy goats. I can't seem to find them locally either, as we were going to put our youngest daughter in 4H. She loves helping with the goats. Was hoping she could show a ND, but they don't do that here. 

Our alpine is sweet, intelligent and the first one to figure things out. Not in a good way either. He's destroyed countless chicken coops to get to the feed. 

Our Mini Nubian loves attention, she's sweet but VOCAL! Take any of her friends away and she SCREAMS. She's also our alarm if any one gets out.


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## lalabugs (Oct 12, 2016)

Here is chocolates Pedigree. Now the breeder says the ADGA website is not working to show who the registered owner is? We're currently not apart of ADGA, so i'm not sure how that works exactly. 

With the spots being left open like they are, can you register offspring with only one registered ND? With knowing chocolates actual birthday that makes her a bit younger than we thought.


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## babsbag (Oct 12, 2016)

You can register offspring with one registered parent; the offspring is called a "Recorded Grade".  However, I don't think that ADGA allows that with the ND. They have what is called a closed herdbook, meaning no outsiders or unknowns allowed. But ADGA didn't always recognize ND so there was probably some leeway in back generations in getting them registered to start with. 

I have not had problems with the heat or parasites, but I don't live where it is humid. Parasites are seldom a problem for me and I deal with cocci no matter what the temps are. I had 3 born in May last year and 3 in June. I was ready to put up fans if needed but they did ok. I think it could be way different with humidity.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 12, 2016)

The places missing on the pedigree were animals that were not registered with ADGA, but instead were registered with AGS.

ADGA will accept an animal that is registered with AGS into it's herd book.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 12, 2016)

Oh that is super helpful.  That's why my dual registered doe has like three things on her pedigree.  I couldn't figure that one out!


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 12, 2016)

I have a doeling registered to the NDGA who I want to register to the ADGA, but in order to do that I have to register her to the AGS. As of now, they can't trace what is on her pedigree to the AGS, so I probably won't be able to do that. I guess her kids will all be registered grade.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 12, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I have a doeling registered to the NDGA who I want to register to the ADGA, but in order to do that I have to register her to the AGS. As of now, they can't trace what is on her pedigree to the AGS, so I probably won't be able to do that. I guess her kids will all be registered grade.


There are no recorded grades for Nigerians.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 12, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> There are no recorded grades for Nigerians.


Great


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## NH homesteader (Oct 12, 2016)

Can you register the buck to NDGA and sell kids as such? Do you want to register with ADGA for showing purposes?


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 12, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Oh that is super helpful.  That's why my dual registered doe has like three things on her pedigree.  I couldn't figure that one out!



I have several that have nothing on one side of the pedigree, because when we got Ginger, she was just registered with AGS.  With her first two or three kids, we never took the step of presenting Ginger herself for ADGA registration, just her kids.  We had to send her original AGS registration paper with the ADGA application for her kids.

We finally paid the money and registered her with ADGA, so her later kids at least show her on the pedigree, but none of her ancestors.


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## lalabugs (Oct 12, 2016)

Thank you all for the information. Lots to think about.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 2, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I have a doeling registered to the NDGA who I want to register to the ADGA, but in order to do that I have to register her to the AGS. As of now, they can't trace what is on her pedigree to the AGS, so I probably won't be able to do that. I guess her kids will all be registered grade.


I did hear back from the AGS.

She can be registered.

For $113.

I told them I wanted to wait and see how he freshened and decide if it is worth it. Don't want to pay that much if she has a horrendous udder.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 2, 2016)

I wonder how much my buck would cost to register under AGS, then NDGA...


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## babsbag (Nov 2, 2016)

$113 to register a goat....that is criminal and crazy. Why so much?


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 2, 2016)

"_So we finally got all the background and were able to trace back far enough to get Magnolia registered.  The fees to get her registered are going to be $113 at member rates.  There is quite a bit in her background that has to be registered in order to get her registered.  If you would like to proceed please let me know and I'll let you know the next steps. Thank you!"_


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 2, 2016)

It sounds like I would be paying for the registry of her unregistered pedigree.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 6, 2016)

$113 is a large chunk of money, but it isn't _that _bad. I mean for an "unregistered" goat to have the opportunity to become registered with AGS/ADGA I think it would be worth it IF she is a good doe. 

The AGS has always been very reasonable, I don't think they are gouging the price. It takes $ to to do what they do. It takes time to go back and find all the info needed. By the looks of your above post, it looks like they worked hard to find and trace back all the info.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 6, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> $113 is a large chunk of money, but it isn't _that _bad. I mean for an "unregistered" goat to have the opportunity to become registered with AGS/ADGA I think it would be worth it IF she is a good doe.
> 
> The AGS has always been very reasonable, I don't think they are gouging the price. It takes $ to to do what they do. It takes time to go back and find all the info needed. By the looks of your above post, it looks like they worked hard to find and trace back all the info.


I know and I feel really bad that they did all that, I just can't afford it right now. 

If she looks really good when she freshens, they said they can save her info and register her then.


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