# 4 of 6 babies born with deformations.... please help!



## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 28, 2015)

I have an excellent purebred registered doe from very good bloodlines... I've bred her the last two years, to two different bucks. Problem is is that a lot of her babies are coming out with genetic deformations and I don't know why...

First kidding was two doelings, which we kept and are now yearlings. 1 normal (hopefully) and one with an underbite and crooked possibly wry tail.

Second kidding she had quads, two boys two girls. One of the boys was so deformed he didn't live after I pulled him out, and the doelings are now 4 months old, and one for sure and possibly both are Hermies, fourth boy was sold as a meat wether, normal that I know of.

Doe is on a dry lot, freefeed alfalfa, sweetlix meat maker lose mineral, and bagged goat grain on the stand. UTD on cd&t, BoSe, and copper bolus.

Doe is a very hard keeper and in milk.

All the rest of my goats and all the rest of my mothers are perfectly fine no other deformations at all.

I've talk to the breeder that I got her from, and she did say that she got one hermie in the past from this does dam, but no other deformations or problems.

What on earth could be causing such a high number of deformations with this does babies? I would chock it up to genetics if it was just one every now and then, but two thirds of all her babies is crazy..

Are there any tests? What can I do to
check and see if there's something wrong with her? What would you do?

Thanks in advance...
-Cari


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## promiseacres (May 28, 2015)

Is she linebred? I am not an expert but would say genetics are the culprit.  Especially hearing that from the breeder  and your other does aren't having issues. I would cull the whole line...


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 28, 2015)

She is only 2.4% inbred.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (May 28, 2015)

This really puzzling...


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## Goat Whisperer (May 28, 2015)

Seeing that it is two thirds of her kids and all the others are fine I *WOULD* chock it up to the genetics. Especially because its not across the board and you have used 2 different bucks. 

I would not breed the doe again and I would cull her line heavily.   

Even with the great lines, you can still get a "dud". 

You can call your vet or even UC Davis and ask about testing.

It is very odd indeed  I know it had to be disappointing


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## Southern by choice (May 28, 2015)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:


> I would chock it up to genetics if it was just one every now and then, but two thirds of all her babies is crazy.



Every now and then?  Um that would be enough to suspect a heritable problem... but 2/3  yeah... you are more than likely looking at a genetic issue.

If all other does under same management (IOW same feed, care, minerals, environment etc) are not having these issues and it cannot be linked to a buck issue than the doe should absolutely be slaughtered or sold as a "pet" only with full disclosure or kept as a pet. 

Some defects can be explained by nutritionally compromised animals but this sounds as if it is well beyond that scope.  

Very sorry you have gone through this repeatedly. It is so heartbreaking.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 30, 2015)

Thank you guys, it is very heartbreaking! I bought her as a very prized show doe for some good money, the part that is so puzzling is that the breeder isn't having any problems with her dam or aunts or anything! Would you guys go back to the breeder at this point? Attached is a pic of the doe. :'(


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## Southern by choice (May 30, 2015)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:


> Would you guys go back to the breeder at this point?



Not sure what you would expect the breeder to do really.
It stinks yes, but there is limited responsibility and a breeder cannot  or should not be responsible for fertility, production, or a doe producing anomalies IMO.

Chalk it up to dumb luck.

Our first registered Nigie was infertile... go figure. Not the breeders fault. Her twin sister had no issues. Dumb luck.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 30, 2015)

Personally, I would go with the 'three strikes' and you're out rule.  Breed her to a totally different buck... things happen and it could just as easily be attributed to the buck or simply a fluke.   Hermies can be a result of placement within the uterus.  If a buckling and doeling occupy the same horn of the uterus they can 'share' hormones and can lead to a freemartin or hermaphrodite with no fault attributed to the dam.  Granted - this is more common in cattle than in goats - but I've personally owned a feemartin which was a doeling born with two brothers.  She was a beautiful doe that we showed and won two grands with.  We never finished her because she never had a kid - never came in heat.  But, her mother had plenty of other kids with nary a problem.   Are there any polled goats in her family tree?

If she strikes out a third time - cull her and her offspring heavily.


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## OneFineAcre (May 1, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Personally, I would go with the 'three strikes' and you're out rule.  Breed her to a totally different buck... things happen and it could just as easily be attributed to the buck or simply a fluke.   Hermies can be a result of placement within the uterus.  If a buckling and doeling occupy the same horn of the uterus they can 'share' hormones and can lead to a freemartin or hermaphrodite with no fault attributed to the dam.  Granted - this is more common in cattle than in goats - but I've personally owned a feemartin which was a doeling born with two brothers.  She was a beautiful doe that we showed and won two grands with.  We never finished her because she never had a kid - never came in heat.  But, her mother had plenty of other kids with nary a problem.   Are there any polled goats in her family tree?
> 
> If she strikes out a third time - cull her and her offspring heavily.



I found this when I searched "hermaphrodite".
We *think *we may have one this year.
Did her vulva look "odd" ?


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## frustratedearthmother (May 1, 2017)

It was small, very small.  I even had a vet do an internal exam to verify my own.  He kept saying that I was wrong in my suspicions until he tried the exam.  He could barely get one finger in her, her vagina was very shallow and it ended in a blind canal.   Beautiful doe...


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## OneFineAcre (May 1, 2017)

This one's vulva is large and has an odd shape.
If you take your fingers and pull it up it has an "odd bulb" shaped thing inside.
No polled animals in parents or grandparents. I haven't checked all of the great grandparents, but I don't think any of them are either.

Maurine is milk testing for our vet this week.  She's going to take her with her and get him to look.  Maybe ultrasound to see if there are testicles in the abdomen.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 1, 2017)

Oh wow - it'll be interesting to find out what it is.  My doe was very stocky ('course she was pygmy so it was a good thing, sorta).  She showed well until she got to be around 2 - then she looked a little too masculine...   Gave her away to some kids for a pet.  It's always the nice ones...


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## OneFineAcre (May 1, 2017)

This one is very pretty and very feminine and dairy.

I'm not 100% convinced she is.

Animals can have different "shapes" to their private parts and the "odd bulb" could be just a normal lady part (not going to say the word ) that's just larger than normal.


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## Goat Whisperer (May 1, 2017)

She is just fine!!


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## OneFineAcre (May 1, 2017)

If "she" is just going to count as an "anomaly".
Not that critical, dam is a FF.
If "she" is, probably have a home for her.


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## OneFineAcre (May 2, 2017)

Maurine didn't take her this morning when she went to do our vet's milk test.
He told her there really wasn't a reason to bring her.
He said he's had some with some odd shaped vulva's before that were fine.
He said probably will not be able to tell if there is a problem until she's 6 months old.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 2, 2017)

Interesting... hopefully she's all good!


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## OneFineAcre (May 2, 2017)

@frustratedearthmother


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## frustratedearthmother (May 2, 2017)

Hmmmmm... it is rather...large.  The doe I had was almost the opposite.  She looked very underdeveloped everywhere.  Very tiny teats that never grew at all after birth.  Very small, flat lady parts.   I think mine was a true freemartin and yours might be a hermie...?    How old is she?


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## OneFineAcre (May 2, 2017)

She's 12 plus weeks old
Very growthy
The only thing masculine about her is she has a big scur and a big horn base


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## frustratedearthmother (May 2, 2017)

Be interesting to see if she cycles...


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## Goat Whisperer (May 2, 2017)

Did you disbud her late? I know you don't generally have scurs on your doelings.


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## OneFineAcre (May 2, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Did you disbud her late? I know you don't generally have scurs on your doelings.


No


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## LocoYokel (May 3, 2017)

just lurking but I find this thread fascinating 
I had a Nigerian Dwarf  doe years ago that had that same pronounced shape to her "nethers".  Her buddy was a wether of the same age and breed, 4 months, and in the following 6 years I never noticed an estrus cycle per se nor any interest in the wether due to an odor change in the doe.


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## Southern by choice (May 3, 2017)

following....  this is very interesting.  I wish it was in it's own thread though... 

Amazing really that there aren't more issues... the miracle of conception- through birth with so many things that can go wrong yet rarely do.... just amazing

Thanks for sharing and looking forward to updates.


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