# How to stop the digging?



## LoneOakGoats (Dec 23, 2013)

We have 2 gpXanatolian cross, 1 year old, brother & sister that we've had about 3 weeks.  They are digging machines!  They dig out almost every night and fortunately, they are always there waiting on us in the mornings.  Today, we put up a hot wire around the bottom of the fenced area.  They were quickly zapped and immediately climbed/jumped over and headed for the hills.  I got them back after approx. 2 hours, but they would not go near the enclosure. I disconnected the charger.   Any suggestions on how to stop the digging?  Thanks


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## Southern by choice (Dec 23, 2013)

What do you mean they would not go near the enclosure? Are they in it? outside of it? I'm not getting a clear picture.
Hotwire on the top and bottom sound like it may be necessary.
Where are they now? What is your set up? Are they in with your goats full time? 

BTW- glad you got them back!


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## LoneOakGoats (Dec 24, 2013)

They are in a large corral, pipe pence with cattle panels, in with goats full time.  When they would not go back into the corral last night, I put them in our shop building until this morning, &  they followed me back in the corral with the goats.  They are curled up in the corner now. The corral is our only option at this time.  We plan on fencing a large area within the next few months, but we have to wait on the dozer to clear the fence line.  Hope this helps


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2013)

It does, thanks. How large would you say the corral is?
Some of this may be because they were on  larger land and now are confined to a much smaller area and are not acclimated to that.
Dogs raised in small areas can go from small to large but it is much more of an issue to go from having land and running etc down to a small corral if they were not raised to do so.

Hotwire top and bottom. They will learn. A couple of bad zaps and they get it pretty quick.

Ummmmm can't recall... did you post pics yet? Cuz pics of LGD's are a must and even if you did... please feed my addiction and post some more!


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## LoneOakGoats (Dec 24, 2013)

The corral is approx. 100 ft X 100 ft. When they touched the hot wire, the sound they made was the most horrible thing I've ever heard!  They did come from a large area and them down to our smaller one.   I've been tied up with my husband, he had an unexpected triple bypass surgery 2 weeks ago.  So, no pictures just yet.  I'll get some posted soon!  Thanks for your help


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2013)

Sorry about your DH needing heart surgery, hope he is healing well.

Yes, the sound they make when they hit it is extreme. Our chickens,geese,ducks, and turkeys hit it and they go bachk- one little sound. The goats, one little mah. The sheep, no sound. The dogs... they act like they are going to die and carry on something ridiculous!  

Merry Christmas!


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## secuono (Dec 24, 2013)

Keep the bottom wire, add a center wire offset and a top wire also offset. Otherwise, they'll go over anyway. 
They probably fear the pen for 'biting' them. 
Why can't they be out the pen? No other fenced area at all?


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## LoneOakGoats (Dec 24, 2013)

No, not yet.  We are having a dozer come clear the property lines so we can fence.  They are telling us it'll be another few weeks for them to get here.  Until then, I might could put up some temporary fences to make the corral larger.  I'm guessing even with larger areas, they will still dig out without the hot wire on top, center, & bottom?


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## LoneOakGoats (Dec 24, 2013)

What joules do you recommend?


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## Beekissed (Dec 24, 2013)

I used wireless electric fencing on mine that were on an acre and the fence covered half that space...it was very effective.  It might be easier if you let them carry their electric containment right on their necks and adjust the boundaries of the fence transmitter to suit their area.  Those systems are so incredibly easy to use, no wires to fuss with.


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## Lulu (Dec 25, 2013)

We have electric wires top and bottom, mine learned and yes dogs sound like they're being tortured!  Make sure they have toys and large bones to chew on, the bones will keep them busy for a while, hopefully they'll just take a nap after using energy on the bones.  Since your'e short on time right now, just spend a few minutes every evening petting and letting them know everythings alright and it won't always be this way.
Hope your husband is better soon and everything will calm down for you.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 25, 2013)

Beekissed said:


> I used wireless electric fencing on mine that were on an acre and the fence covered half that space...it was very effective.  It might be easier if you let them carry their electric containment right on their necks and adjust the boundaries of the fence transmitter to suit their area.  Those systems are so incredibly easy to use, no wires to fuss with.



What system are you referring to? Is t like invisible fence or something different? 

As a trainer I really do not like "invisible fence" systems. 
Collars for most LGD's are ineffective. Of course there are always the exception.
When an LGD is in pursuit of a predator a collar is of no effect. They will storm right past any invisible boundary disregarding any shock. LGD's really do have an on/off switch and when they are in "JOB MODE" nothing stops them, nothing. 
Back in the 80's these systems got alot of praise by the 90's everyone was using them and for the most part for the neighborhood family pet they were ok. The working dogs on farms these created many problems. The dog will cross the area and take the shock but would not risk the shock to return.
Invisible type fencing poses several problems. 
A) it does not prevent other animals from coming in. Big problem there.
B) for most LGD breeds their neck hair must be trimmed or shaved for the prongs to touch the skin. More than one issue with that alone. That thick ruff around the neck adds protection for the dog, and also a higher risk of infection if the dog is repeatedly shocked. Many infections go unnoticed til the smell is putrid. I've seen this many times.
C)Once the dog breaks the boundary in pursuit of a coyote, fox etc it is gone. I have seen this time and time again.

I have a picture of a broken steel T-post that happened one night when our Anatolian and our Pyr continually hit the fence to get to the predator on the other side.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lgds-and-fencing.27203/
These animals are powerful and focused and without strong barriers they will be gone and they will continue to run and pursue the threat. 

*The dogs will need to learn to adapt to their new environment.*  We have never had diggers or escape artists mostly because we train them from a young age to be content where they are no matter the size of the area. Hotwire on top and bottom are usually sufficient but adding a middle wire really will reinforce the learning process. 
What are the dogs background? What fencing type was used, animals guarded, etc.


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## Beekissed (Dec 25, 2013)

Wireless fencing systems do not shock on re-entering the system.  And, as with any electric fence, they are very wary of getting that shock and will scream like a banshee when hitting the boundary when leaving...the wireless has a more powerful correction than the in ground, wired systems.  They come with long prongs for thicker coats and once a dog is trained to it, those prongs don't really even have to be up tight to the skin because the warning beep halts them before they even need the shock. 

My dog was only half GP, and she did have the double coat and thick folds of skin all around the neck but she only had to wear her collar like a necklace...she was the biggest sissy over that system of any dog I've ever seen.  Every time I changed the boundary and she accidentally got shocked, she would remain in the very center of the boundary, refusing to come even to get food, water or to go to do her business beyond a 5 ft circle in the very middle for a good 2 wks and slowly, oh, so slowly see that the other dog wasn't getting shocked and so would finally learn to trust venturing out into the space again.

You can see in this pic, she is wearing that collar like a necklace..those prongs aren't even really touching that skin...it was the beep that kept her in check.  After getting shocked by this system, that beep ruled her world. 








Since the area was so small to be guarded, predators never came all the way in and could be warned off with a bunch of barking, running the boundary and threatening.  Now, if one had sneaked in and had to be run off, I'm sure she would have zipped right through that boundary, shock or not.  

This situation with just the 100x100ft space for her dogs seems ideal for this wireless system, as she doesn't want the dogs to go beyond that area and no predator is going to go into that small of a space with GPs.

I've used this system for 10 years with 7 of those years on this GP mix...she only went out of that barrier one time, after her battery had been run down for some time before I knew it.  Then never again after that.  

I had sheep, calves, chickens inside that system and we had black bear, coyote, cougar and the usual suspects on smaller preds.  Never lost an animal, only had a dog go across the boundary one time and that was due to the dead battery.  

I'm still using this system on the one farm mutt I have left and he is able to defend the free range chickens alone, surrounded by thousands of acres of woodland full of the usual preds.  They get used to this system and it becomes their known territory...he returns to it even when his collar is not on and once in that area, he won't come out of it unless I tell him to, collar or not.  

Now, in a bigger pasture system it wouldn't be practical, but in small areas like the OP describes, I find it to be very effective.


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## Azriel (Dec 25, 2013)

The wireless fence systems do shock when the dog tries to reenter the fenced area, try putting it on your wrist or neck and walk in, you will be in for a good shock.
Working in a vet clinic and seeing many dogs hit by cars when useing the wireless systems, we tell people not to use them because no matter how well trained to the system, given enough motivation they will go out and get in trouble. We have also treated many dogs with holes burned in their necks from testing the system.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 25, 2013)

Ahhhh, I see. Good info *Beekissed*!  I checked out the system you were talking about. As a trainer I would not recommend this for Livestock Guardians that are working but if I am getting what you are saying_ you mean inside the fencing_?    That may work in that setting.
Kinda pricey for the short term issue... The one I saw was starting $300. Maybe  I am looking at the wrong thing.

*Azriel* I agree with you but I think Beekissed was referring to using the system within the fencing. I may be wrong but as I re-read the post that was the impression I got. Everything you mentioned...* X2*   My sister has experienced serious burns and infection on one of her dogs (they have 7... labs, border collie, poodle, GSD) another was being chased by a fox (poodle) ran and ran... ended up on the highway, picked up by a motorist heading to a vacation spot, dropped the dog at a shelter 150 miles from home! If her dogs see something they are through that line. Yep, lots of dogs hit by cars, dogs coming in and a fight ensues etc. 

Maybe I am old fashioned. Fences make good neighbors! 

I do like the hotwire for more than one reason.  It teaches the dog quickly but also trains the dog to be able to stay within boundaries established by hotwire alone. Our Kiko goats are moved over a great deal of heavy woodland, very thick stuff. We have to take a machete to clear a path through new areas, set up 3-4 strands wire, for the goats to move through... with the goats go a Female Anatolian and a Male Pyr. The hotwire keeps all contained very well, the goats and the dogs respect the wire.  They are moved when the area is somewhat cleared but not killed, this way their food grows back. Depending on the area we will get 3 weeks- 6weeks before needing to move again. We also have semi- permanent hotwire out in front of the property, we use T-post with 5 wire ( because of kids and they are small, Nigerian Dwarfs, also a little taller because of the dogs) we are on a highway... contains the goats and 2 Pyrs.


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## Beekissed (Dec 26, 2013)

Azriel said:


> The wireless fence systems do shock when the dog tries to reenter the fenced area, try putting it on your wrist or neck and walk in, you will be in for a good shock.
> Working in a vet clinic and seeing many dogs hit by cars when useing the wireless systems, we tell people not to use them because no matter how well trained to the system, given enough motivation they will go out and get in trouble. We have also treated many dogs with holes burned in their necks from testing the system.




Actually, I have tried it several times to test that feature and have never gotten shocked.  Maybe the system I use is the only one that has it?  I use the Petsafe brand fence.  I've lived next to the road for 8 years of using this system and never had a dog on the road.   It was actually because I had a dog hit on the road that I got the system.  I never trust a regular fence for containing dogs, so I had a wireless system inside a regular fence.  Double insurance.


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## Azriel (Dec 26, 2013)

Inside a regular fence I think its a good idea. I don't have any kind of fence for my current dogs, but I live almost a mile off any road and both dogs are older and don't go far.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 26, 2013)

I wanna live a mile off road too!


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## Azriel (Dec 26, 2013)

I do love it, until we get hit with 2 feet of snow and 60 mile an hour winds while I'm at work so the driveway has 5 foot drifts and I have to walk home. I keep x-country skis tied to my mail box all winter now.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 26, 2013)

Ya know years ago I watched _"The Frontier House"_... on tape LOL it snowed in May or June on one of the episodes... I realized then... I would never have made it.


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## Kitsara (Dec 26, 2013)

Living a ways back from the road is nice  Our driveway is about 1/2 mile.

I  am a fan of hot wire as well. When we had a German Wirehaired/Pyr cross that we were given, it was the only thing that kept him in the fence. He didn't dig, he would jump or climb 6 foot fences. At the time we lived in town, and well. I got tired of chasing him all over. He loved to run. He touched the wire once and never again. 

Other than that, the only other dog that we had who would dig, we ran about a foot wide of small holed chicken wire around the fence. Course, that was for a smaller dog, not sure it'd work real well for a larger one.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 26, 2013)

German Wirehaired and  Pyr Cross?   

I'd love to see a pic of that!


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## Kitsara (Dec 26, 2013)

It was an interesting mix. He was tall dog. He could sit on the floor and still nose the top of table. This is him with my son. Oh my, it's been a long time. He does have a tail, it's just hidden in the picture. He could clear a side table with it in no time.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 27, 2013)

That is hilarious and adorable all at the same time!
He looks absolutely smoochable and cuddly!

and I can imagine the tail!


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## Kitsara (Dec 27, 2013)

He was the best. And boy could he jump. Again, the wire was the best thing ever.


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## Beekissed (Dec 27, 2013)

I now live a half mile back and that far from any neighbors as well, so no perimeter fencing any longer but I do still use the Petsafe wireless, though my dog is older and well trained to the place.  He has a tendency to go walk about if he doesn't have his collar on, though he would come home and no worries he most likely would be shot.  Stray dogs get a bullet in these parts.

Even on the tag on his receiver collar~just in case the battery should go down and he decide to take a stroll~it says: Hi, I'm Jake!  Please don't shoot!  Call #.....      I try to double down on insuring they don't go where they aren't wanted or where they will meet an untimely death.  

It only took one screaming dog and a $800 vet bill for me to realize that a GP mix dog still has enough GP in her to go wandering and folks can't seem to see that huge white dog standing in the middle of the road in broad daylight in a 25 mph zone.  

Now I always use double measures to keep them home, barring actually tying them up, which I would never do on a continual basis.  Wireless and real fence when next to the road, or wireless and a half mile of woods between me and the hard road and civilization.  Even then it's not fail proof...no fencing is fail proof.  One just has to do the best they can and give the rest to God.


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