# Fee for renting a bull



## cjc (Jul 3, 2018)

Hi All,

We got our first bull this year and now that he has done his job on our farm we have been renting him to a few neighbors. Right now I am charging $100 per cow in their field and that includes 2 months time. So right now he is at a neighbours with 4 cows so I charged $400 and expect him dropped off in 2 months.

Just curious what the going rate is out your way? It's our first time being the bull owner and not renting a bull and I've had people charge me numbers all over the place.


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## RollingAcres (Jul 3, 2018)

Hi @cjc 
I don't have any bull so can't answer your question. Just want to say you have a nice looking bull. What breed is he?


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## cjc (Jul 3, 2018)

RollingAcres said:


> Hi @cjc
> I don't have any bull so can't answer your question. Just want to say you have a nice looking bull. What breed is he?


Thanks! He is a Red Angus. He's young...about 2 years old. I got lucky with him and picked him up from an auction that no one showed up to so I got him really cheap. He's very quiet so he has turned out to be a great asset.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 3, 2018)

No idea on fees.  It depends on what is available in your area.  What did you p ay to rent a bull last year?  How good was that bull?  Since your bull is only 2, he is a first time stud bull, and unproven (you don't know what he will sire.)  If you are satisfied with the price you are getting, and don't have to feed him, that is probably a good deal.  Do you have lots of people wanting to use him for that price?  If they are pounding on the door, price is may be a little low *but* it gets your bull out there.  If you are keeping him for another year, check on what his calves look like and maybe raise the price next year.  He will be a proven bull then, with a record of siring calves.  If you want to put him out again next year, take some pix of his calves next spring to advertise him. 

Red Angus is a good meat breed.  Also in demand for using on first time dairy heifers because Angus have lower birth weight calves - easier on the heifers.  Decent cross for beef too.  I have heard that Angus are less docile than Herefords and some of the other meat breeds.  You might decide to put a ring in his nose for easier handling eventually if you are keeping him and have to transport him.

I would be interested in what the answers are from others.


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## cjc (Jul 3, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> No idea on fees.  It depends on what is available in your area.  What did you p ay to rent a bull last year?  How good was that bull?  Since your bull is only 2, he is a first time stud bull, and unproven (you don't know what he will sire.)  If you are satisfied with the price you are getting, and don't have to feed him, that is probably a good deal.  Do you have lots of people wanting to use him for that price?  If they are pounding on the door, price is may be a little low *but* it gets your bull out there.  If you are keeping him for another year, check on what his calves look like and maybe raise the price next year.  He will be a proven bull then, with a record of siring calves.  If you want to put him out again next year, take some pix of his calves next spring to advertise him.
> 
> Red Angus is a good meat breed.  Also in demand for using on first time dairy heifers because Angus have lower birth weight calves - easier on the heifers.  Decent cross for beef too.  I have heard that Angus are less docile than Herefords and some of the other meat breeds.  You might decide to put a ring in his nose for easier handling eventually if you are keeping him and have to transport him.
> 
> I would be interested in what the answers are from others.



I've never had anyone question my price which had me thinking maybe I wasn't charging enough. Cattle people in our area always barter haha, but each time I've said $100 per cow people have instantly agreed. Which had me curious what the rate was. I have paid anywhere from $50-$200 per cow in the field for a bull rental fee.

We will see how his calves do. I have a lot of different breeds I've bred him too so we are hoping he does well. We have quiet a few dairy cows he has impregnated (Jersey and Holstein) and a lot of Angus and a few short horns. He's now over with a Hereford herd with our neighbor I rented him to. We have had issues in the past with our girls not getting pregnant but he had our entire herd pregnant with in a month. Mind you our current herd is all heifers or second time calvers.

I do have quiet a few people wanting him but he is also the only bull I have seen in our area, so it could also be the convenience of renting him.

His first calf should be born any day now!


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## Ridgetop (Jul 3, 2018)

Since his record on covering the cows and getting them pregnant seems about 100% in your herd, you know that your bull is fertile.  I would check the fertility results with the other herds he is covering.  Any cow not getting pregnant might be the cow if all your herd is pregnant.  Also record the number of heifer and bull calves he produces, both in your herd and in the other herds he services.  Since your fee seems very reasonable, he is the only bull in the area, and people seem very happy to pay $100 per cow, I would consider raising the fee after you see what his calves look like.  Knowing the percentage of heifer and bull calves too, is an important piece of information to have in his file.  Hopefully he will stay easy to handle which is another point to advertise in a proven stud bull.  The lower fees you collect this year will get your bull known and balance out next year when you raise them. 

Keeping a stud bull is a lot of work, needs better fences, plus housing and feed during the winter months when he is not working as you know.  If your bull's calves look good, and his fertility is high, it seems that you should increase your fees to pay for the added work and expense of keeping the bull year round.  On dairy cows, the lower birth weight of the calves is important too.  Next year you will be offering a _proven stud bull with the records to back up his performance_.  You can then offer him at $150-200 a cow.  Even if someone else decides to keep a stud bull and offers that bull at less money, you will have the records to prove your bull's worth and performance.  Records are very important.  Photos of the calves are good too to prove what good calves he sires. 

Hopefully this will work out.  It sounds like you have a winner there.


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## farmerjan (Jul 4, 2018)

@cjc;  hi good to see your post.  That is more than anyone gets around here so if you can get it then good. We get about $250 for a 60 to 90 day period to the few farmers that we rent/lease to.  They are also feeding the bull so figure it is worth at least another $50 a month.  
If he is the only bull in the area that might be why no one is questioning your price.  Personally, it is more than we would pay but we also do AI like you used to.  There are alot of bulls and farmers in this area and most have at least one bull of their own unless they have very small numbers, like the two that usually use a bull from us.  
We do a BSE on any bull that we lease out.  Even if he has proven fertile in our cows.  We had one we used for several years and the next year he was shooting blanks.  So it pays to have a semen evaluation.

The only problem with renting out a bull to several different places is disease.  Vibrio comes to mind.  It is something you surely don't want to get in your cows. It is a sexually transmitted disease and a bull will get infected from a cow, then give it to every animal he breeds after than.  Also Trich.  There are also others, like BVD and IBR causing some fertility issues but they are also air borne and can be vaccinated against.  If you do a search for sexually transmitted diseases in cattle, I think you will get some information.  This is not to scare you but it is a consideration.  Mostly I think it does not show up in the bull except if he becomes infertile, but with cows things like abortions and such will show up and you lose precious time and then have animals that are infected and there are basically no cures to any of the STD's that I am aware of.

How is your "baby" who isn't a baby anymore?  Bet he is getting big.


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## greybeard (Jul 5, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Since his record on covering the cows and getting them pregnant seems about 100% in your herd, you know that your bull is fertile.


Fertile, probably so. How well he passes his genetics on to calves is yet an unknown. 
I would not want to rent any bull that is not 'proven', and by that I mean live healthy, functional calves on the ground, preferably calves that have grown to at least yearling weight or maturity. And, if I had heifers, I would want some kind of assurance the bull was heifer safe, that is, CE.

And yes, trich would be my #1 concern. Most that rent out their bulls do trich testing before it leaves their pasture and again after the bull is returned, tho preferably right before the bull goes home and a stiff penalty assessed if the test comes back showing the bull is infected. 
Most of the time, there are few if any outward signs of the disease exhibited, in both cows or bull other than open cows or late bred cows.

No real treatment approved for trich  infected bulls either.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 5, 2018)

farmerjan and Greybeard raise a really good point about testing for disease.  I don't know much about the testing or cattle diseases, but your vet should be able to do it, right?  Do farmerjan and Greybeard think you should test in between each herd he goes to?  Or would be that something the herd owner should request you do?  Hearing about the possibility of disease transmission from herd to herd by the bull, I suggest that if nothing else, you have him tested before bringing him home to your cows.  If he is positive for anything, you will have to sell or slaughter him.  Since you didn't have him tested before taking him to the neighbor, you couldn't even make a claim that that is where he picked anything up.  Good to know before next season though.

With our sheep and goats, I simply don't offer stud service to anyone.  That way I don't have any animals coming onto my property.  When I did offer stud service, it was to 4-H kids whose animals I had bred so no worries there since none of them had more than a couple.


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## farmerjan (Jul 5, 2018)

We are very careful about who uses/leases our bulls. Have only a couple that do and they have basically closed herds.  We have to be careful when we buy bred cows and what bulls we use on them,  if we keep them for another calf or more.. It is easy to bring something home that even "Ajax won't wash off" as the saying goes. One reason that we have more bulls than we need in case something does go wrong like the one that was shooting blanks one year.  We luckily checked these cows early because we saw some repeat heats and as soon as we realized they were all open but 2 of the 16, we pulled him, sold him and put 2 yearling bulls in there.  They got the cows covered fairly quick but they were behind about 3 months.  I don't think the bull that was "no good" had a STD as he had never been anywhere but with ours, something could have happened over the winter...who knows.  We didn't have any problem with that group of cows breeding, calving or rebreeding the following year so felt fairly safe with their reproductive health.  But it is a consideration.


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## greybeard (Jul 5, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Do farmerjan and Greybeard think you should test in between each herd he goes to?


Absolutely!

My father always told me _"Borrowing a bull is borrowing trouble_" and trich was the reason he said it. 


 I don't rent out bulls but if I did,  I would have to have a pretty ironclad written lease agreement releasing me from any financial liability should trich become an issue in a client's cow herd. 

It is a serious issue many states.

A 2009 article:
https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/090401o.aspx


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## Ridgetop (Jul 5, 2018)

So as soon as the bull is done at the place he is at now, have the vet out to draw blood (?) and send it in to the lab, right? 

Test for Vibrio, Trich, IBC, BVD, plus anything extra prevalent in the BC Canada area and then also do a CE test before sending on to some other herd or your own - have I got that straight?  I am not a cattle person so I only understand the brucellosis bit, but farmerjan and Greybeard are so I would do what they say.  Then figure out if it is worth the cost to put the bull out to stud next year and go from there.  You may have to raise your price to cover the testing.


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## greybeard (Jul 5, 2018)

Trich is not normally checked with a blood test. It is done by first cleaning of the inside of the sheath and collecting smegma with a pipette.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 7, 2018)

Protect your herd and yourself financially by testing and having a written agreement with the other herds who use him.  Do you have a written agreement?  What if the bull breaks his leg in their field?  Will they pay for him?  For the vet costs?  
Wow!  This is getting intense.  Hopefully you already have a written service agreement.

"No good deed goes unpunished" as they say.

We loaned out a beautiful young buck with great bloodlines we wanted to keep but were not using that year. We were asked to loaned him to a 4-H family who were having some money issues and couldn't afford buying a buck.  He came back with CL and we got rid of him.  They _said_ they had a clean herd and another breeder who was very careful vouched for them but we found out later that they also had a CAE doe the were breeding and showing.  We wanted to keep that buck and use him on our young stock the following year so we were out a good buck.  The kids they got out of him were lovely too.  Live and learn.


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## farmerjan (Jul 7, 2018)

Not to be discouraging;  but we had a bull we really liked and had him in OUR pasture with OUR cows.  A neighbors bull that was a KNOWN troublemaker, busted through the fence and hit our bull while he was on a cow breeding her and broke his leg.  We didn't get any compensation, and were out a good bull we really liked.  Things can happen.
  If/when we lease a bull we have an agreement that if anything should happen to the bull, injury, sickness, whatever, the lessee (them) are responsible for this agreed on price xxxx number of dollars.  It is written right into the agreement.
  We used a bull once from a farm my son was working for when we didn't have alot of cash to buy a bull.  He "broke" his penis and couldn't breed any more cows.  We paid the difference between what they got for him at the stockyard and what he would have brought if they had sold him as a breeding bull.  We knew what they were asking because we had been thinking about trying to buy him.  He did get most of the cows bred before this accident, but they were out a saleable bull, and we were out the difference in cash.  It worked out, but ACCIDENTS HAPPEN.  It might not happen with this bull, it was maybe 10 years before we had this expensive accident happen to the leased/borrowed bull.  BUT it can happen.


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## cjc (Jul 11, 2018)

Thanks everyone for your input! I have not tested him myself but when he was sold at the auction he had to be tested prior to sale. What exactly he was tested for I am not sure. Luckily we are in an area that is just a bunch of hobby farmers so we move cows around and share fields etc., so the people renting my bull are not big time farmers by any means. But it doesn't make us exempt from issues, but it has not happen yet. I will ask the vet when he comes out next time to check my girls.

@farmerjan my son is now 13 months old! He was terrified of the cows until about 2 months ago. Thank god he changed his tone haha. We were worried there for a bit! But its not shocking to us that his third word was MOOOOOOO!


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## greybeard (Jul 11, 2018)

farmerjan said:


> We paid the difference between what they got for him at the stockyard and what he would have brought if they had sold him as a breeding bull.


That is a fairly common agreement. 
Other times, I've heard of it, 'renter 'gets' to keep the bull, pay the owner full price and renter sell him at stockyard to recoup some of renter's financial outlay' (or just eat the bull).

Some of the bigger breeders have some kind of insurance policy to cover their loss of a breeding bull, but still invoke the "you pay the difference" thing. Seems like double dipping on their part, but they are the ones that are paying the insurance premiums...
(I do not know anything about that kind of insurance)


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## Ridgetop (Jul 11, 2018)

There are livestock policies, but they can be pricey.  It would depend of the value of the bull whether it was worth it.  The problem with "just hobby farmers" is that they don't always see any reason to test their animals since they are "just hobby farmers" and have only a few.  If they are picking up animals from other places, they could bring in something unknowingly and pass it along through the bull.

If you call the auction yard, they will have a list of what tests have to be done before a bull can be sold.  A copy of tests and results should also be in the paperwork you were given at time of sale.  I recently bought an out of state ram at an online sale and he had to be tested for ovine brucellosis and a couple other things before the ram could be released to the buyer.


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## greybeard (Jul 11, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> The problem with "just hobby farmers" is that they don't always see any reason to test their animals since they are "just hobby farmers" and have only a few.


Yep, but if they don't test, they are apt to have a lot fewer.

_
(a) Test Requirements. All Texas origin bulls sold, leased, gifted, exchanged or otherwise changing possession for breeding purposes in the State of Texas shall meet the following testing or certification requirements prior to sale or change of ownership in the state:


  (1) Be certified as virgin, by the breeder or his representative, on and accompanied by a breeder's certificate of virgin status; or


  (2) If from a herd of unknown status (a herd that has not had a whole herd test), be tested negative on three consecutive culture tests conducted not less than seven days apart or one RT-PCR test conducted within 60 days of sale or movement, be held separate from all female cattle since the test sample was collected, and be accompanied by a Trichomoniasis test record showing the negative test results.


(b) Identification of Bulls. All bulls certified as virgin bulls shall be identified by an official identification device or method on the breeder's certification of virgin status. All bulls tested for Trichomoniasis shall be officially identified at the time the initial test sample is collected. That official identification shall be recorded on the test documents prior to submittal.


(c) Confirmatory Test. The owner of any bull which tests positive for Trichomoniasis may request in writing, within five days of the positive test, that the commission allow a confirmatory test be performed on the positive bull. If the confirmatory test is positive the bull will be classified as infected with Trichomoniasis. If the confirmatory test is negative the bull shall be retested in not less than seven days to determine its disease status. If the confirmatory test reveals that the bull is only infected with fecal trichomonads, the test may be considered negative.


(d) Untested Bulls. Bulls presented for sale without a breeder's certification of virgin status or a Trichomoniasis test record showing negative test results may:


  (1) Be sold for movement only directly to slaughter; or


  (2) Be sold for movement to an approved feedlot and then moved to slaughter or transported back to a livestock market under permit, issued by commission personnel, to be sold in accordance with this chapter; or


  (3) Be sold and moved under a Hold Order to such place as specified by the commission for testing to change status from a slaughter bull. Such bulls shall be officially individually identified with a permanent form of identification prior to movement, move to the designated location on a movement permit, and be held in isolation from female cattle at the designated location where the bull shall undergo three consecutive culture tests at least seven days apart or one RT-PCR test. If the results of any test are positive, all bulls in the herd of origin of the positive bull shall be placed under hold order and tested as provided by subsection (e) of this section. The positive bull shall be classified as infected and be permitted for movement only directly to slaughter or to a livestock market for sale directly to slaughter; or


  (4) Be sold and moved to another physical location under permit issued by commission personnel, and then to a livestock market or location to be resold within seven days from the date of issuance. The bull cannot be commingled with female cattle during the seven days.


(e) Herd of Origin or Unit Testing.


  (1) All bulls that are part of a herd of origin from which a bull is sold in accordance with subsection (d)(3) of this section and is found to be infected with Trichomoniasis shall be placed under hold order and officially tested for Trichomoniasis.


  (2) All bulls that are part of a unit of origin, as epidemiologically determined by the commission, from which a bull becomes separated and that bull is found to be positive for Trichomoniasis shall be placed under a hold order and officially tested for Trichomoniasis. All bulls that are part of the unit on which the separated positive bull was located, as epidemiologically determined by the commission, shall also be placed under hold order and officially tested for Trichomoniasis.


  (3) Officially tested, as used in this subsection, requires at a minimum three official culture tests conducted not less than seven days apart, or one official RT-PCR test. If the results of any test that are required by this subsection are positive, the herd shall be tested as provided by §38.3 of this chapter (relating to Infected Herds).
_


(I'm telling my age, but Never buy a bovine with a 'B' branded on their jaw)


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## Ridgetop (Jul 11, 2018)

This is excellent information.  Thanks Greybeard!  Ok so now *cjc *can find out what tests his bull has had.  Although if he was purchased as a 2 year old, he may have been certified as "virgin".  Either way, it should show up on the auction paperwork.

Not sure what a "B" brand on the jaw stands for, but it doesn't sound good . . . .


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## cjc (Jul 23, 2018)

We got our first calf from our bull! This is our cows second calf and she literally spit that calf out faster than we could notice. She was grazing and then 20 mins later boom! Calf on the ground! Her last calf was very small as she’s a small cow but this one is a hearty size. It’s a bull calf and the little guy walked right up to me for a sniff 2 mins after he got up! 

I always thought this cow was a red angus x jersey and the bull is a red angus but this calf also came out with the exact white spot his mom has. Any guesses on the cows breed?


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## farmerjan (Jul 24, 2018)

Nice sized and looking calf.  White on the face is very often predominant in crosses if one of the parents have it.  I would say that your guess could be right, she looks to have that "long" head/face that most dairy crosses/breeds have.  The lighter / yellower color makes me think that she could have some Char or simmental in her with some dairy.  The sims seem to get a little washed out in the tan color when a lighter color is crossed with them.  Actually, since you aren"t  so  "black fixated" up there like they are around here, I'd say you did good with the calf.  She seems to carry a good meaty body, so with the angus sire you ought to get a nice beefy calf if she milks good.  Roly poly in a month or 2....


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## cjc (Jul 25, 2018)

farmerjan said:


> Nice sized and looking calf.  White on the face is very often predominant in crosses if one of the parents have it.  I would say that your guess could be right, she looks to have that "long" head/face that most dairy crosses/breeds have.  The lighter / yellower color makes me think that she could have some Char or simmental in her with some dairy.  The sims seem to get a little washed out in the tan color when a lighter color is crossed with them.  Actually, since you aren"t  so  "black fixated" up there like they are around here, I'd say you did good with the calf.  She seems to carry a good meaty body, so with the angus sire you ought to get a nice beefy calf if she milks good.  Roly poly in a month or 2....



I hope so! She raised a great calf last season. I grabbed this cow for $100 2 years ago. She was just about to get slaughtered and was about a year old at the time and I thought what the heck, I'll take her. She's an ugly little cow haha, but she is a fantastic mother! The calf is up and running today. Chasing our horse around the field, very sweet. I can't wait to see the next calves. The next cow to calf is a Holstein X Black Angus. I am going to have some real interesting calves this year! All very mixed breeds.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 25, 2018)

Mixed beef/dairy cows are good mothers.  Lots of milk to grow the calves, and the sire is that nice little red /angus of yours.  Calves will be 3/4 Angus so should turn out thick and meaty.  Looks like you will have some nice beef this year.  Congratulations.


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