# Buckling Issues *Pics Page 2*



## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

I posted this on another forum, but haven't gotten any responses, so I figured I'd try here too.  

*(This was written Sunday)*
My March born Oberhasli buckling is having some issues.  Yesterday he went out to browse with the lambs, they ate mostly mulberry with a bite or two of Rose of Sharon (before I could move him from them).  They didn't browse for longer than normal, and he didn't eat an exceptionally large amount of leaves.  I noticed some slight bloating yesterday afternoon, so I gave some baking soda.  He was still acting totally normal and still had a good appetite.  
This morning he seemed fine, ate fine, peed fine.  This afternoon he was bloated again, this time bigger than yesterday.  I felt air in the rumen, but he was acting normal.  He ate a good bit of hay (grass hay).  I checked on him a couple hours later, and now he's still bloated, I can feel air in the rumen before I hit solid hay in there.  I just gave him 6 oz of  bloat treatment (Docusate Sodium - 240mg (in emulsified Soybean oil), though it was hard to get him to swallow it all.   I also noticed he urinated afterwards and it was dark-possibly dark blood?   

He is alert, doesn't seem very uncomfortable, and ran away from me easily.  WHat are some possible issues and treatements for him?  I appreciate any help.  

Oh, his normal diet is free-choice grass hay (it's Max-Q Fescue) and a small amount of grain per day, probably not even 1/4 lb.  
*
*Ok, update from this morning... *This morning he was acting fine still.  His bloatyness has gone down, but he's still a little fuller in the right side than I'd like to see. His rumen felt normal, like a hard but malleable mat of hay.  He's still acting totally normal.  I skipped grain this morning.  

Now, they did load up on hay yesterday.  Normally the three of them (2 lambs and the buckling) eat about 2 flakes per day.  Yesterday they sucked down their afternoon flake in no time  flat, so I gave them a third flake in the evening. Perhaps he was just full? But I definitely felt air in the rumen.  

He's just not acting like a typical bloat case, and if it was UC I'd think he'd be depressed/lethargic and not peeing.  

Any thoughts? Sorry for the mile long post.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 30, 2010)

What about just keeping baking soda out free choice for a little while to see if he freely eats it and the bloating goes down. Hopefully someone else has some better answers.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 30, 2010)

The dark colored urine is weird..  

I notice he's running with lambs, and I know you're no dummy, so I feel fairly certain that whatever they're all eating is probably devoid of -- or contains very little -- copper.  

Is he being supplemented with copper on an individual basis?  If so, what kind of copper is he getting and how often is he getting it?


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

He's getting offered a goat mineral every day...not free choice, but I offer it to him.  Sometimes he eats a little, but mostly not.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, that's good, considering what I was thinking about..  My thinking was goat w/ lambs -> supplementing goat with copper -> acute copper toxicosis -> hemolytic anemia.

I'm sure if he'd had b-complex right before the dark urine, you'd have mentioned it....right?

I can't think of anything in the field that would stain urine...



I dunno why I'm transfixed on the dark urine, either, but I am.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

No Vit. B has been given.  

And I saw him urinating and just about stuck my hand under to catch some, but he ran away. I needed to get a closer look.    It wasn't really dark, but tinged.  But if it was UC, the flow would probably be interrupted, right?  Or he'd be acting down?


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## jodief100 (Aug 30, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I dunno why I'm transfixed on the dark urine, either, but I am.


I think you should be concentrating on the dark urine.  Anything  "different" is always cause for concern.  Asparagus can darken urine, is there any wild asparagus in your field?  

I am going to suggest a copper bolus.  If he isn't getting free acess to mineral he might not be getting enough.  It is a random shot in the dark though- not certain copper deficency is the problem here.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

No wild asparagus.  The only thing he ate Saturday was mulberry, rose of sharon, and grass (fescue, crabcrass, bermuda grass, clover).


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## cmjust0 (Aug 30, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> No Vit. B has been given.
> 
> And I saw him urinating and just about stuck my hand under to catch some, but he ran away. I needed to get a closer look.    It wasn't really dark, but tinged.  But if it was UC, the flow would probably be interrupted, right?  Or he'd be acting down?


Yeah, you'd know it if he had UC..  Nothing here indicates UC to me..  

Tinged, as in _reddish?_  Or tinged as in, _not perfectly clear._


Is it possible that he took a hard knock from someone?  Wouldn't necessarily *think* that would cause his abdomen to be swollen, but ya never know...and I've had my kidneys rung a time or two and made "pink lemonade" for a while afterward

I'm just spitballin' here..


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

Well CM, he does happen to be in with my ram lamb and the two like to butt heads and rough house.  It's possible the ram lamb could have caught him in the side.  :/  The ram lamb isn't all that huge though, but it's certainly in the realm of possibility.

And it was tinged like still translucent but brownish (but bloodlike brown, like old blood) yellowish.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 30, 2010)

Hmm..  

So, would you describe the way he's looked in the past few days as being "potbellied?"

I've seen the potbellied look before, and it's usually accompanied by a fair-to-middlin' level of parasitic anemia.  I don't know *why* they get potbellied with parasites sometimes, but they seem to..  

I do know they launch an immune response to parasites, and any kind of immune response to something like that would be a cellular response...which means inflammation...so I personally take those things to indicate that the potbellied appearance is some type of gastroenteritis due to an ongoing immune response intended to expel barberpole worms.

That's just me thinking, though..  

But if that's it...could this be some other form of gastroenteritis?  And if so, could it be due to some kind of toxin or poison plant which also may have caused him to be a little bit hemolytic?

Toxins and poisons do that sort of thing...  

Not that you can get a goat to pee on cue -- and I know you've already tried this -- but is it completely unreasonable to expect that you *might* be able to catch a little pee and run it to the vet for a urinalysis?


I'd check his eyelids, too..  Only problem with that is that if they're way pale, you won't necessarily know if he's anemic/potbellied because of parasites, of if he's anemic/potbellied because he's hemolytic from some kind of toxin..


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

I doubt it's worm load.  I dewormed him with tramisol a couple weeks ago.  I always check eyelids, and his aren't very pale at all. Do you think there would be a delayed response if it was worm load?  

I was also thinking toxin, and I was going to give him some charcoal last night, but it was a fight to get that god awful bloat treatment in him, and I didn't want to add anything to interfere with the bloat treatment.  

And I know tricks to get cows to pee on cue, but I'm not sure about a buck.  

I guess I could always deworm him again, and give him some charcoal just in case.  I really don't like to be a "throw everything at them", I'd rather keep trying things and eliminating possibilities.  I'll re-evaluate him when I get home from work today.  It's not like he's weak and lethargic.  If he's still acting like he was this morning (normal) then I'll one thing at a time.


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## jodief100 (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, my experience in humans would indicate an internal injury of some sort.  Don't know about goats, just transfering here.....

A good swift butt to the side could cause a minor internal injury with a little bleeding and some swelling.  Is he point tender? Is his breathing shallow?  If it is mechanical and not pathological he might be sore in the sides.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Well, my experience in humans would indicate an internal injury of some sort.  Don't know about goats, just transfering here.....
> 
> A good swift butt to the side could cause a minor internal injury with a little bleeding and some swelling.  Is he point tender? Is his breathing shallow?  If it is mechanical and not pathological he might be sore in the sides.


He's not acting tender. I've really been prodding and massaging his rumen.  No shallow breathing.  

Yesterday he did do some yawns/jaw stretches, but that was after I gave him the bloat treatment.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

Got a reply on the other forum and she said it sounded like just a full rumen. She said the urine could be because of something he ate. She said her girls are eating lots of oak leaves and the tannins cause dark uring.  Hopefully that's the issue.


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## Roll farms (Aug 30, 2010)

I haven't seen anything posted yet that would set off alarm bells.

If he's peeing ok and acting ok and eating ok....I wouldn't worry.

If he were down / lethargic / teeth grinding AND seemed bloated / had odd colored urine, then I'd worry.

But if he's acting ok, no evidence of a worm issue, and pooping ok....I'd stop fretting.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Aug 30, 2010)

Im with "Roll"  It dos'nt seem like there is any alarming issues...I lost my buck to UC and he was not a happy guy...he was down, grinding his teeth and when he would stand up to try to pee...it was really obvious he was distressed.

I would just keep an eye on him.  You can get a PH urine test and test his urine. Or like "CM" said catch it and bring it to the vets for tests.

My guys seem to fill up on too much hay sometimes..and I just message the air out and then chase them around to mix that rumen up.  Excercise  helps when they get a little bloaty..  I must look like a crazy person running around with my goats...but they love it!!!  Its a game to them...Good Luck...hope his belly goes down for you?


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, he seems normal this afternoon.  He just had a ginormous rumen I guess.    Thanks for all the replies.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 1, 2010)

Well, here are some pictures I took a few minutes ago.  See why I worried?  I still don't think he's quite normal.  The urine is back to clear though, I tried to take a picture but you can't see it (second pic).   

He looked fairly normal before I gave him grain, and I only gave him a handful.  Could he be sucking air when he eats or something?  I've never heard of them doing that, but it makes sense that he might while gobbling down the grain.  I dewormed him again today, just in case.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 1, 2010)

My goats look like that after they have been out on pasture and I have a couple girls who like their hay and look like that most of the time.


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## ()relics (Sep 1, 2010)

Couple of years ago I had a doeling get really big, sounds similar to what you are seeing.  I thought , like you, bloat and treated it as such. She seemed ok for a couple days then I found her one morning scouring terribly.  I called the vet, as she was a Very Valuable doeling.  He came out took some blood and a fecal sample, gave her some B complex and Iron and left.  Later he called me back to start her on a coccidiosis treatment.  Apparently she had run into a harsh strain of it somewhere in the pasture.I had never seen cocci come on with "bloatlike symptoms" before then..Don't know if thats you bucklings ailment but it might be worth a test and try if he has a set-back.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 1, 2010)

I can try treating for coccidia. It's worth a shot!


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## ()relics (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't think I would start treating him just yet.  Maybe wait and see what happens in  the next few days and then if he does scour you will be ready for it.  I hate to treat when it may not be needed.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2010)

That looks abnormal to me, especially for a buck or buckling..  We have does that look that way, sure -- but they generally don't until after they've had kids.  My theory there is that they kinda 'stretch' a bit during pregnancy, which helps develop the rumen..

Anyway..

Doesn't look like the 'potbelly' think I'm talking about with worms, either..  Something's making lots and lots of gas in his rumen..

Generally speaking, the gas that builds up in a rumen -- and forgive me for saying this, but -- are bacteria f.arts.  I mean, pretty much that's what it is, right?  Methane...it's the byproduct of bacteria breaking down the stuff the goat's eating.  

Total shot in the dark here -- and I'd probably go right on ahead and do the coccidia treatment, as suggested, while pondering what I'm about to say -- but my shot in the dark is that there may be some kind of bacterial imbalance going on in this guy's rumen..

Problem is...I have *no clue* what kind of bacteria I'd be fighting, nor what I'd fight them with..  

Being me, though...if he were here...I'd be reeeeeeeeally thinking about giving him a dose of Scour-Halt.  I know he's not scouring, but Scour-Halt is really just an antibiotic designed for the gut that happens to have a really symptom-specific name..  Forget the name for a minute and think with me..  

See, my *hope* would be that some antibiotic to the gut would kill off some gut bacteria...enough, perhaps, that a shot of probios shortly thereafter would effect some sort of "reboot" of the system and possibly bring everything back online in the correct proportions.

Does that sound reasonable to anyone but me?

Probably not...as we all know...I'm really just an ignorant hillbilly who don't know no better.


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## Heavenly Springs Farm (Sep 1, 2010)

I don't know if you have tried this or not. I didn't read all the postings.

One of my bucks bloats up alittle but not as much as yours. I just give them some baking soda and it goes away the next morning. I guess it is worth trying on your guy.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 1, 2010)

I do know that sometimes my animals will have a full rumen after grazing a new area or something, but he's not been on pasture or browse except for Saturday.  I know this isn't normal for him, and he's only been doing this since the weekend.  I'm pretty sure it's not just a normal full rumen.  And he can't be acidotic, because he's just not getting enough grain to be.  And it's not really bloat, because he's not acting uncomfortable at all.

Tomorrow morning I'll skip grain.  I'll take pics before and after grain just to see if I'm crazy or not.  I'm going to hold off on the coccidia treatment for now, because I just dewormed him and I want to rule that out first.  If he's still doing this in a few days, I'll try the coccidia treatment.


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## glenolam (Sep 1, 2010)

Just chiming in for another thought/question....

Have you given him probios at all?  If it is a bacteria war as CM suggested, the probios may give the better bacteria something to sharpen their knives with, so to speak.

I'm not sure if this is right or not, but if he's got something in there that's giving off gasses (and, yes, he doen't look normal to me, either FWIW) wouldn't that want him to continue eating more so whatever is in there can keep eating?  Similar to worms/parasites?


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## warthog (Sep 1, 2010)

OK Just thinking out loud.

You say it's only after the grain.

Is he eating the same grain that he usually eats.

Is it what you feed to all the others.

Has the manufacturer changed any ingredients. Could there be sometyhing new in there that he just cannot tolerate.  Like us humans have tolerance issues.

Could it be an old/contaminated bag.

I think it might be an idea to keep him of the grain for a day or two then if he seems OK reintorduce it slowly and see what happens.  If he reacts the same way, then it's got to be something with the grain.

I'm sure you have probably thought about all these things, but just thought I would throw it out there.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

Thanks for all the suggestions.  He's on the same grain he's been on, it's not old, the amount hasn't changed, and everyone else is fine.  I don't think it's the actual grain causing it, but more of how he's eating it (he's a fierce "competitor" and horks it down as fast as possible, which was making me think he was somehow managing to suck air).  I don't even really think that's the issue though, because what animal doesn't hork their grain down as fast as possible?    I've never had another animal do this.  And he's not even getting enough to have to stop and then re-introduce it.  I've cut him back from what he was getting, and now he's not getting more than a handful twice a day. That's really not enough to cause an issue.  

I haven't given Probios...but I guess I can add that to the list as well.


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## ()relics (Sep 2, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I haven't given Probios...but I guess I can add that to the list as well.


Probios is a waste of your time right now and actually may make the problem worse.  Adding more "live culture" stimulants to an already over stimulated rumen?  Wait with that until after you have him 'running" right, then use the probios to restart his rumen...JMO...


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
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> ...


Honestly, that's exactly what I thought, I just didn't want to be rude.  I rarely ever use Probios anyways.  Plus, since he's not in immediate danger, I'm trying on thing at a time so I can try to pinpoint the issue.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

First of all, questioning someone's "shot in the dark" isn't rude...it's normal.  I don't mind.  

Now...question..._is he burping at all?_


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2010)

Do you feed him separately from the others? Do you have a large (wide) feed pan that you could use? What about putting large rocks in the feed pan and then spreading his grain around. It will force him to slow down. Also, I feed some animals by themselves because they eat too fast with others around and when they eat alone, they figure out that they don't have to scarf it down.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

CM, I guess he's burping.  I haven't heard him burp, but every time I'm in with him he just wants to be in my face and is too busy smelling and nibbling my lips/hair/ears/chin/etc to act normal (yanno, like he's too preoccupied to ruminate).  

And K, he's got a metal hog pan for feed, and he has to chase the grain around the bottom of the pan. I'm going to try to tie him up to eat today.  Actually, I'm going to skip graining him and see what happens.  Luckily I'm off work for the next 4 days (WOO HOO!) so I have time to play around with things (instead of rushing off to work).


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

Type I vagal indigestion?


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## jodief100 (Sep 2, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Type I vagal indigestion?


I read over the description.  It says the animal probably won't be eating well. The OP said he was still hoovering his food.  

I wouldn't rule it out but I have my doubts.....


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Type I vagal indigestion?


I'm not sure about that.  I'll keep it in mind. Though it'd be pretty cool to have a rumen fistulated goat!


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## ()relics (Sep 2, 2010)

I recall when I was in school, there was a cow that had a rumen fistula.  It was fun to look into the rumen to see the food that the cow had eaten being digested....I don't think the cow enjoyed it though.  It was a chronic bloater and had the surgery "to futher the study of an active rumen"...It never really grew or gained any weight, it just kind of stayed around as a living science experiment that would ocasionally be wheeled out for some "new test"...It died when I was a senior...they took the fistula assembly out, it had a plate glass viewing window, and that was the end of that.  It probably still sits in some laboratory today, the assembly that is.


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## jodief100 (Sep 2, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> I recall when I was in school, there was a cow that had a rumen fistula.  It was fun to look into the rumen to see the food that the cow had eaten being digested....I don't think the cow enjoyed it though.  It was a chronic bloater and had the surgery "to futher the study of an active rumen"...It never really grew or gained any weight, it just kind of stayed around as a living science experiment that would ocasionally be wheeled out for some "new test"...It died when I was a senior...they took the fistula assembly out, it had a plate glass viewing window, and that was the end of that.  It probably still sits in some laboratory today, the assembly that is.


Most Ag colleges have "cows with windows".  I know Kentucky State and University of Idaho do, I have seen them.  It is pretty standard for studying cow digestion.  

And yes, it is COOL!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

I'm usually not a proponent of feeding processed foods to ruminant animals, but I think I would almost HAVE to feed one of those a handful of goldfish crackers one day...just for the irony.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

Yep, I worked at the University of MD farm and we had 2 cows with cannulas.  We were in charge of handling the cows for the labs and stuff (student labs).  They're pretty neat.  The cows were retired dairy girls and they lived a great life.  I also worked at a large dairy in MD that had a fistulated cow in the milking string.  They used her a lot when they had cows go down or their rumens would need jump-starting.


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## ()relics (Sep 2, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> ()relics said:
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...but when I was in school it was considered almost unheard of and very experimental.  IA st.  198...let say late 80's


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## ksalvagno (Sep 2, 2010)

Ohio State has a cow like that too. Many an alpaca has been saved from getting rumen juice from that cow.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

Well, y'all clearly have quite a bit more experience with this than I do...I'd never heard of a vagal indigestion -- let alone a rumen fistula -- before this morning.  This is all new territory to me, so I'm just kinda using the power of logic and reasoning to try and figure it out..._definitely not experience!_ 

With that in mind, it simply occurred to me that if he's just got gas in there -- not trapped frothy gas, but just a big pocket of gas -- then he _should_ very simply burp it out.  That's what they do..  So, working under the assumption that it was just a big free-gas pocket, I made the logical jump that he must *not* be burping, else he wouldn't have that big gas pocket, right?...so then I gotta go try to figure out how to tell google that I want to know why a goat can't burp..

That's not easy, btw..  

And that's how I landed on type I vagal indigestion, resulting from "eructation" failure.  

Having said all that, the whole idea is predicated on the animal NOT burping...which is why I asked if he was burping.

Unfortunately, to "guess he's burping" because he's a goat, and goats burp, doesn't really get us anywhere in determining whether suspecting vagal indigestion is a waste of time..  If we're gonna rule it out, we gotta figure out if he is -- in FACT -- burping...or not.

If he is burping...I'm out.  No clue beyond that..  

But...well...if it is, indeed, a free-gas pocket as you described, then I can't see how it's even possible that he's burping normally, else he'd be _normal_...which he clearly isn't.

So...the burning question in my mind..._is he burping?_


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 2, 2010)

Well, I don't typically hear my ruminants burp when I'm feeding them, and lately I haven't had a ton of "hanging out" time with them.  I'll try to monitor him a bit closer this weekend.


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## jodief100 (Sep 2, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Well, y'all clearly have quite a bit more experience with this than I do...I'd never heard of a vagal indigestion -- let alone a rumen fistula -- before this morning.  This is all new territory to me, so I'm just kinda using the power of logic and reasoning to try and figure it out..._definitely not experience!_
> 
> With that in mind, it simply occurred to me that if he's just got gas in there -- not trapped frothy gas, but just a big pocket of gas -- then he _should_ very simply burp it out.  That's what they do..  So, working under the assumption that it was just a big free-gas pocket, I made the logical jump that he must *not* be burping, else he wouldn't have that big gas pocket, right?...so then I gotta go try to figure out how to tell google that I want to know why a goat can't burp..
> 
> ...


It is a very good thread of logic you are following here.  I think the OP should investiage this burping thing.

We just got carried away about the really cool cows with windows.


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## jodief100 (Sep 2, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> ...but when I was in school it was considered almost unheard of and very experimental.  IA st.  198...let say late 80's


I am not too far behind you there, IA st.  must have started what quickly became the norm.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

You guys and yer fancy pants college ag experience... ...I have a piddly little AAS in computer information systems, from "way back" in 1999.  :/

In the IT world, I'm "pre-Y2K" which is practically _ancient_...a veritable wizened sage, if you will.

But yeah...no...my degree?...NOT SUPER HELPFUL IN GOAT WORLD.


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## ()relics (Sep 2, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> ()relics said:
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I think they tried them regularly...I don't think many of the early ones were successful, at least not for the cows.  I got there in 86 and the window cow was the first thing everyone had to see....then it was put back in the closet.  I remember they did a few while I was there but never had windows just valves, and I wasn't a cow person, and had much better things to do that stare into a cows stomach...As I recall.


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## jodief100 (Sep 2, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> You guys and yer fancy pants college ag experience... ...I have a piddly little AAS in computer information systems, from "way back" in 1999.  :/
> 
> In the IT world, I'm "pre-Y2K" which is practically _ancient_...a veritable wizened sage, if you will.
> 
> But yeah...no...my degree?...NOT SUPER HELPFUL IN GOAT WORLD.


My degree is BS Mechanical Engineering, not too helpful in the goat world either. One valuable thing this degree gives for "Goating" is the ability to think through a problem logically and scientifically.  CM, you seem to have learned the same thing .

I also have a BS in Biology which is somewhat helpful.  I am planning on buying a microscope next year to run fecals and put that degree to use finally.  My college Ag experience is because my Ex's Dad taught at the Vet school at UI and I would go pester all the Ag guys when I got the opportunity to.  I have done some pestering of the Ag guys at KY State too.


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## jodief100 (Sep 2, 2010)

Wait, I just reread the first post.  This goat is eating fescue hay.  Is this possibly fescue toxicity?  I am not familiar with it, so I don't know the symptoms.  Just throwing it out there.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> I also have a BS in Biology which is somewhat helpful.


I'd give my right arm to have a BS in Biology right now...


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Wait, I just reread the first post.  This goat is eating fescue hay.  Is this possibly fescue toxicity?  I am not familiar with it, so I don't know the symptoms.  Just throwing it out there.


Fescue toxicosis is commonly called "summer slump" around here...if you see cattle on fescue standing around in ponds all summer, that's one of the symptoms I've heard of..

I've never heard of bloat associated with summer slump.  Not to say that's not it, of course, but I haven't heard of it...


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## Ariel301 (Sep 2, 2010)

I majored in Equine Science at Colorado State University, and they had a fistulated Holstein too. Sassy was a freemartin (sterile female twin to a bull calf) that was bound to the ground beef factory and they bought her for that purpose. She would be brought out for all the freshmen ag students to stick their hand inside of. She had a magnet in her for preventing "hardware disease", so we would find the abomasum by fishing around for the magnet. They neglected to tell anyone that despite shoulder length gloves and lab coats, you would smell like the inside of a cow's rumen for several days. Yuck!

I think I would hang out with this goat for a while and see if he is burping. He does look full of gas. I'd be tempted to poke around in his rumen with a stomach tube, but that's the vet student in me talking...And this one is a little weird, but you can treat frothy bloat by drenching with plain Dawn dish soap, just a few tablespoons for a kid that little, it is supposed to help make the foam break down into more burp-able gas. I've done it before, saved a doe's life, because she was so bloated she could hardly breathe and didn't know up from down to try walking around,but she was sneezing soap bubbles for a few hours after lol!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 2, 2010)

How is your Boy doing???  That pic look like a FULL rumen....I would spend some time with him and hold your hand on his rumen and make sure its contracting ok..Is he's burping?????  Its important to know thats theres movement... There is a definite point of no return when the rumen stops functioning.   You can also try positioning him at an incline..making sure his feet are higher than his rear...that sometimes helps to remove gas....

If he got a bacteria in there or ate hay or grain having any mold he may have indigestion...milk of magnesia will detoxify and reduce the acidity of the rumen.  It will also help encourage rumen contractions.  He will scour in about 12/24 hr...it will clean out the rumen...and it will be foul smelling.    *heed my warning its bad!!   

You will definatley have to give him 1/2 c to a c of plain yogurt or probios for a few days..know your not a fan of probios..but if your clearing out the rumen like that your gonna wanna crank it up again...

Hope something helps...Poor guy..what a beer belly he has gotten for himself!! 

PS I believe fescue toxicity is from a fungas being on it??  I think?


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 3, 2010)

It's not a fescue issue.  This hay is Max Q fescue which has a novel endophyte which doesn't cause any issues.  Also, fescue issues don't cause bloat. 

He's doing fine.  I skipped the grain yesterday evening and this morning.  No huge belly.  I'm going to feed him a small amount of grain this afternoon and see what happens.

I was thinking about the whole eructation thing.  I think he has to be burping, because he doesn't bloat up like that when he just eats hay.  Unless he's farting everything out...but I really don't think the burping is an issue.  I really think he's somehow swallowing air or something.

This afternoon I'm going to feed him a handful of grain from my hand and see if I get the same results (balloon boy).


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 4, 2010)

Well, yesterday afternoon I fed him a small amount of grain from my hand and he didn't have any issues.  This morning I fed him his normal amount, but fed him grain in a bucket and by himself.  No issues.  This afternoon I'll try feeding him normally (with the lamb) and see if he has issues.  If not, maybe it was a weird fluke.


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## warthog (Sep 4, 2010)

These wierd things just sometimes happen, but glad to see things seem to be improving.  Keep us posted.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 4, 2010)

It is nice to see things are improving!  Im glad for you...they have a way of sending on some wild goose chases huh!!


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## ThornyRidge (Sep 5, 2010)

I am gonna chime in here because I have a goat (pygmy) who is now 7 years old and has looked like this often.  There is no official diagnosis for her and she has been examined by vet.. the conclusion is she has some issue (from birth) almost like a reverse reflux where she does seem to suck in air and become very gassy you can see too something in her throat/trachea quickly going up and down like maybe something is not sealing properly. She sounds like a pig snorting and such hence was named Miss Pyggy.  and she is full of gas all the time!  Her digestive sounds are sooooo loud you can hear her gurgling, belching and churning especially after meals when all are laying around relaxing.   She also puffs up like that and even when you tap on her sides it sounds like a kettle drum.  The amazing part is that once she belches or farts (yes she does that often too!) the swelling instantly goes down! I have on occasion even have lifted her front end up ( not sure that would be recommended with a buck) and that quickly aids in dispelling gases (usually in my face) and she reduces in roundness. I might add at times she has been so round it looks like she might pop, or at least tie a string to her and use her as a balloon if she would float!  It is an interesting issue with her and does not seem to hamper her at all. I keep baking soda out free choice to help all other goats.. This particular goat is spunky and has been healthy, I have had no issues with her other than her "gas".  Oh and I might add most goats have smelly belches especially if you happen to get one in the face but man alive this particular goat is a whole new level at times!  sometimes it is best to be "upwind" if you know what I mean.. anyway goat belches, farts and all I love this goat she is truly special!  I might see if he has any of these similariities and when he is puffed up tap those sides to see if they sound hollow. and then see if you can get him to belch and see if those sides go down at all.  as stated earlier my goat has been healthy and is in good body condition otherwise.. so your goat may be some type of gas goat like mine!  Just wish I could bottle it and use it for my car!


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 5, 2010)

Ok, so yesterday afternoon I fed him just like normal.  I put the feed in 2 pans (one for him, one for lamb) and they both gobbled it up.  And whatta ya know, he "blowed up"  again.  Just like I suspected, he must be in such a rush to beat her to the grain that he's snarfing up air or something.  

Really now I'm not too worried about it.  It does go down after a little while and it doesn't seem to bother him.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 5, 2010)

Good work....!!     It must be a relief to fiqure that one out...

Im happy for you!!!


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## MysticScorpio82 (Sep 5, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Good work....!!     It must be a relief to fiqure that one out...
> 
> Im happy for you!!!


x2


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