# Your thoughts on herbal wormers



## Ariel301 (Dec 3, 2010)

Does anyone here have any experience with any of the herbal wormer products out there? If so, what did you use, and did you like it/think it was effective? 

We are trying to keep our farm as organic and chemical-free as we can. We believe in not medicating our animals unless they need it. I am seeing a lot of herbal wormers out there that claim you can use them without having to toss out the milk like you would with a regular chemical one. That seems pretty attractive, especially since looking at the ingredient list on some, it could be possible to grow all the ingredients myself and further add to our self-sufficiency and minimize our reliance on big drug companies to cure us and our animals when they have no real interest in doing that at all. (We absolutely do treat our animals with a medication if they are sick and really need treatment, don't worry!) But, I know with herbal stuff there is often little regulation and little research/scientific evaluation, and there's a lot of quacks out there selling useless stuff. 

I'm just curious if anyone is using any of these herbal wormers, and are they really working? 

Please be nice and not start a fight, I know it's a controversial subject. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


----------



## ksalvagno (Dec 3, 2010)

I used Molly's Herbal wormers. I used both 1 & 2 in the way that Molly suggested. I have 17 goats. For me personally, I was disappointed with the results. I ended up worming my goats with the regular chemical wormers. I would still like to try and find some sort of herb or combination of herbs that would work for my goats but so far haven't found that magic combination. 

I will keep looking though. I don't like the fact that more and more chemical wormers aren't working or extremely high doses are needed to work. So I would like to find a way to either eliminate or drastically reduce the use of chemical wormers.


----------



## Calliopia (Dec 3, 2010)

The only natural worming thing I have seen work was carrots on a puppy.  

 We had a rescue that was full of worms. Didn't realize it until after she ate the carrots.  She thieved the first one and chewed on it like a toy.  Next day out came a huge worm load.    I waited a couple days. Fed her 2 or 3 more.. Another large worm load.


----------



## freemotion (Dec 3, 2010)

I use herbals.  I also have a bottle of Ivomec in my fridge and I don't hesitate to use it.

In order to use herbals successfully, I felt that I needed to get a microscope and slides, etc, and learn to do my own fecal exams.  Also become very familiar with FAMACHA.  I used Molly's Herbals my first year and am now experimenting with herb formulas of my own devising.  I am hoping to find some combinations that work well on my property and with my goats, and ultimately create a sturdy herd.  We will see.  

So far I have only used the Ivomec twice this year, once with a buckling that was weaned and moved here on what turned out to be the start of a very long and very hot heat wave.  I suspect all that stress made a huge bloom of worms, so he got the Ivomec, then has been doing well on the herbals all summer and fall.  

The other was an older doe who was doing great, I was watching her eyelids get a little lighter and was working with the herbals and monitoring her closely....then a neighbor threw a bunch of white bread into my pasture  and this started a downward cascade with this doe....in a matter of a few days she got very anemic, so I switched to Ivomec, and she also became very copper deficient, and her milk production dropped overnight from over 3 quarts to under one quart.  She is back where she needs to be now, though, and back to herbals.

What I am saying is that you need to monitor your goats very closely whether you chose to go the herbal route or the medical route, and what works on your property with your goats may not be the same as what works next door or across the country.  What works with most goats in your herd may not work with all the goats in your herd.  So just keep a watchful eye and be prepared.  

My goal is to grow all my own herbs for this, too.  I will be looking for wormwood in the spring, I have everything else on the herbal lists except clove, which I will not be able to grow here in New England!


----------



## chandasue (Dec 3, 2010)

I use it too but not exclusively. It does seem to reduce the frequency that I have to use Ivomec so I continue to use the herbals. I think consistency is important. If you're going to use it ya gotta stick with it. I also give them pumpkin/winter squash seeds when I cook one up and the one goat that is almost always lower on the Famancha chart than the other two is the biggest pig on those, as if she knows she needs it more.


----------



## Ariel301 (Dec 4, 2010)

Calliopia said:
			
		

> The only natural worming thing I have seen work was carrots on a puppy.
> 
> We had a rescue that was full of worms. Didn't realize it until after she ate the carrots.  She thieved the first one and chewed on it like a toy.  Next day out came a huge worm load.    I waited a couple days. Fed her 2 or 3 more.. Another large worm load.


Yuck! I've never heard of carrots as a dewormer, that's a new one on me. 

I do have a microscope and run my own fecals, I also regularly (monthly at least) check the goats' eyelids against a FAMACHA chart. I haven't noticed a big problem with worms in any of my animals so far, though I am thinking I do have a cocci problem since I have had trouble with slow growing kids. 

I have a neighbor who grows wormwood to worm her goats, and they all look to be in really good condition, fat and shiny. She's giving me some to put in my garden. I do really like the idea of being able to produce some of my own herbal medicines, with times the way they are, and money being short.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

I've never used any of the herbals, but I have watched carefully as other people use them..  Time and again, what I've seen are people -- not just here, either -- who say they worked until summer, at which point they had to use a conventional, chemical dewormer once or twice -- but after that, it was all smooth sailing.

Thing is, summer is barberpole season.  If your wormer seems to work until barberpole season comes around, all it really means is that your wormer "worked" until it was expected to actually *do something,* at which point it failed.

In my mind, that kinda makes it a failure.  Period.

Now, on the topic of deworming foods...carrots, etc...I've also heard claim that pumpkins are natural dewormers.  A good friend of mine swears by it, and grows a big patch every year.  In the Fall, usually after the first frost, he harvests his pumpkins and tosses them out to the goats.  They go nuts eating the pumpkins and -- lo and behold -- eyelids get pinker, etc.

Notice my use of the word "Fall" in there...Fall being when barberpoles go dormant anyway.  

Coincidence?



Why, yes.  Yes it is.  :/


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> I have a neighbor who grows wormwood to worm her goats, and they all look to be in really good condition, fat and shiny. She's giving me some to put in my garden. I do really like the idea of being able to produce some of my own herbal medicines, with times the way they are, and money being short.


You could also kill worms with azaleas or wilted cherry leaves...worms can't live in a dead goat, afterall, and either of the above WILL kill a goat.  

Point being that a lot of the stuff "they" use in herbal dewormers are toxic, and that just because something's "natural" doesn't mean it can't be harmful..  Wormwood, for example, contains a chemical called 'thujone,' which is the primary ingredient in a drink called Absinthe.  

Van Gogh was blitzed on Absinthe when he cut his ear off, and yes, it's possible to fatally O/D on thujone.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Calliopia (Dec 7, 2010)

I will agree  with CM a bit on this one. 

Herbals can be DEADLY when used improperly.  


As to carrots...  Not sure if it was the texture, something in them, if they irritated her bowels enough to expel EVERYTHING including the worms... But I tested it by giving her some pretty good doses of  carrots and seeing what followed and then 2 weeks later or so tried worming with a chemical dog wormer and got next to nothing.  So something in that situation was causing the carrots to act as a catalyst for worm expulsion.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

Calliopia said:
			
		

> I will agree  with CM a bit on this one.
> 
> Herbals can be DEADLY when used improperly.
> 
> ...


Worms you can see are almost always tapeworms, so a quick google for 'carrot tapeworms' (oh, the things I google. :/ ) turns up quite a few stories.  Enough to give me some faith in carrots for tapeworm issues, actually.

Seems to be a 'mechanical' thing, though -- not a chemical thing.  That is to say...all that fiber apparently makes a tapeworm live pretty hard.

Having said that, one might speculate that all the fiber in a goat's natural diet may have something to do with why goats aren't all that prone to tapeworms in the first place..


----------



## Calliopia (Dec 7, 2010)

It was a puppy so these were round worms.. 


But I'll one up ya on the google search. 

 About 2 days ago... Let's just see what Image search brings up for goat hermaphrodite.    And let's FORGET to turn safe search on.  ARGHH  MY EYES!!!


----------



## freemotion (Dec 7, 2010)

So far herbals have been working year-round on most of my goats.  But not all.  Less so on the all-dairy goats, the ones with the light frame.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

Calliopia said:
			
		

> It was a puppy so these were round worms..


Hmm..  Interesting.  Back to the googles!



> But I'll one up ya on the google search.
> 
> About 2 days ago... Let's just see what Image search brings up for goat hermaphrodite.    And let's FORGET to turn safe search on.  ARGHH  MY EYES!!!


LMAO


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> So far herbals have been working year-round on most of my goats.  But not all.  Less so on the all-dairy goats, the ones with the light frame.


Based on fecals, or FAMACHA?

I also find it interesting that you say "all-dairy," versus...what...mutts?  Hybrids?

My experience with hybrids has been that they're FAR SUPERIOR to purebreds w/ regard to worm resistance/resilience.


----------



## freemotion (Dec 7, 2010)

Based on both.  I have three all-dairy....an Alpine doe and buck, and an Alpine-La Mancha doeling (50/50).  I have four very mixed up mutts....two pygmy crosses and two with 12.5-25% Boer and the rest a mix of dairy.  The last four have not needed any Ivomec.  Two of the dairy goats have needed Ivomec this year.

I check FAMACHA regularly and run fecals if I see symptoms other than FAMACHA, like clumpy poo or earlier this year, the vomiting doeling.  Sometimes I run a fecal on everyone just to get more experience and see what is going on with everyone who is symptomless, compared to those who have had symptoms.

I also have a large pasture for the size of my herd and land that is very, very quick to drain after rain.  I'm sure that is to my advantage, worm-wise.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Based on both.
> ...
> I check FAMACHA regularly and run fecals if I see symptoms other than FAMACHA


I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I think FAMACHA can be misleading when judged in a goat with good body condition...i.e., fat goats.  I've seen goats go from FAMACHA perfect to FAMACHA fatal -- and then actually, physiologically CEASE TO LIVE -- in less than a day.

Does that mean the goat died of worms?  No...it means the goat became dehydrated.  No fluid to eyelid means no pigment in eyelid means FAMACHA fatal score.

I'm thoroughly convinced that thin goats -- which full dairy breeds in lactaion tend to be -- are more prone to dehydration because they lack condition.  Putting two and two together.....you see where I'm going with this.

So if you're relying on FAMACHA to decide whether or not to run a fecal, you may not be getting the whole picture on your fatter goats because their condition *may* keep them better hydrated, which *may* prevent FAMACHA from demonstrating in quite such a dramatic fashion...whereas the dairies may tend to vacillate a bit more.

OR...maybe your fatter goats and/or hybrids aren't so much resistant, but resilient, in that they may have been blessed (or cursed) with a really kickass hemopoetic system that can go through red blood cells like Charlie Sheen through hookers...in which case their FAMACHA would be deceivingly OK, despite the fact that they're walking egg factories.

_Maybe._

The reality is that I can't prove any of that.  All I know is what I've seen, personally, and what makes sense to me logically.  And it's all causing me to have less and less faith in FAMACHA all the time..

Yet, on the other hand, I'm also not a fan of fecals because a goat's not always going to be shedding eggs..  Like right now, for instance...  I'm sure fecals would turn up next-to-nothing in most of my herd because most of the barberpoles have gone dormant.  Consequently, everybody's FAMACHA scores look pretty daggone great right now, too -- provided they've had the gumption to venture out to the stocktank instead of lounging in the barn all day, in which case the thinner dairy goats' FAMACHAS actually look questionable whereas the fat meat breeds and meat-hybrids still look fine because they're FAT..

Does that mean I'm doing a good job?  No.  In all likelihood, it just means the length of day has shortened to the point that the barberpoles have decided it's time NOT to molt into adults, but instead to go dormant and wait for the days to get longer so they can start laying eggs again in the Spring.

Where am I going with all this?

I dunno.  

I guess I'm starting to think it's all about 85% bullsh*t, and that we *really* need to be focusing on better ways to deworm these critters than checking...and rechecking...and rechecking...and questioning our methods of checking...and blah blah blah...and waiting for worms to BECOME A PROBLEM before we actually do something about it.

:/


----------



## ksalvagno (Dec 7, 2010)

cmjust0 - then I guess that means that you should be looking into herbs. We know that overdoing it with chemical wormers will just build resistance.  

The fact is that there are no good answers and all you can do is your best. Are you going to lose some animals - yes. Are some going to appear/be healthy and live a long life - yes.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 7, 2010)

I use chemicals when needed.  But I do not worm on a schedule at all.  It is strickly an AS NEEDED...basis for me.  I have not wormed in over a year..and thankfully everyone is great!!  I just had them all tested to make sure I was not missing something.  

I think whatever you find working to keep with it? Herbals, chemicals or both.  

But I think the key is to use them "as needed" and just not assume with them. They should not be used as a preventative..thats where the resistance comes in.

Kinda like taking asprin before going to your in laws...you just may not need it this time!!!


----------



## freemotion (Dec 7, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> cmjust0 - then I guess that means that you should be looking into herbs. We know that overdoing it with chemical wormers will just build resistance.
> 
> The fact is that there are no good answers and all you can do is your best. Are you going to lose some animals - yes. Are some going to appear/be healthy and live a long life - yes.


Preach it, sister! 

I just can't worry about it that much, cm....I'm insane enough as it is.  If a goat keels over....well, the truth is that it is likely a weaker goat and I am better off without those genetics in my herd.  The truth is also that I would weep until my cheeks are chapped, too, but hey, that is life with goats. :/


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

I think instead of looking into herbals or trying to figure out chemical dosages, what we need to do is *accept* the fact that keeping goats unnaturally on pasture, rather than the browse to which they're naturally adapted, is just a bad idea altogether.

Square peg -> round hole.


----------



## Calliopia (Dec 7, 2010)

Coppicing !!!   

Best Idea Ever    It is a long term plan though.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

Strip disking!  

Seriously think I'm gonna make a limited go at it this Spring, just to see what comes up.  My neighbors are gonna LOVE me when it comes up in purple thistle, but that's ok...I'll just sell them goats to control it.


----------



## Calliopia (Dec 7, 2010)

I can't strip disk ... only 1/2 an acre.   Hubby won't let me buy a tractor until we have 5 acres.   


But yeah for acreage..  Strip disking!!   I'm right there with ya. 


 My father just bought 14acres that has been cattle pasture for the past oh 30 years.   I sooo want to get at it and play around with forage growth options.  Right now it's under the guise that it's for his pigs


----------



## Beekissed (Dec 7, 2010)

I don't know if my methods would translate over into goats, as they seem to have more trouble with parasites on the whole than do sheep. 

Also I have a breed of sheep that is more inclined to parasite resistance.  But I've had my sheep for two and a half years now and have not used a commercial dewormer.  

I have used a drench of concentrated, freshly juiced garlic, unpasteurized ACV and sometimes a little Shaklees soap.  I use this about four times a year.  I have also used the garlic powder instead of the freshly juiced in the interest of time.  

I also feed pumpkins, the seeds of which also act as a natural dewormer. 

They all got nasal fly bots this summer and I searched desparately for a natural way to rid the sheep of these.  They hadn't been drenched since spring, so I decided to try this first. 

I just upped the garlic in my drench, wiped out their nasal passages and applied Vicks with a long Q-tip.  The symptoms were gone the next day and have never returned.  I had read the larva do not like the garlic taste in the bloodstream~apparently this is true. 

I've never actually used the herbal dewormers as I have found my own methods to be sufficient.  I check my sheep against the FAMACHA chart and gauge their general health/conditioning to measure success of these methods.  

I'm quite satisfied.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

Sheep are naturally adapted to grazing which almost certainly makes them more parasite resistant than goats.  Despite how similar goats and sheep seem to be, it really is an applesranges comparison.


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 8, 2010)

I am really glad to see this post in all honesty! I am about to give up raising goats because of this year alone! I have had such a bad time of worms and sooooo many deaths in my young goats that it is terribly distressing. My poor 8 year old son lost all four of "his" goats this fall alone. The last of his four just died this morning and he didn't even "look" sick or down or anything. Cold could have played the part in this death, he was 8 months old. I do fecal testing on my goats (just started) and they all have high worm loads. One in particular that had really high amounts of eggs I dosed on Ivomec to kill them all and she died the next day. I am thinking it killed too many off at once thus causing alot of toxicity and death. I have had in total a loss of eleven goats, only one was an adult the other ranged in age from 13 weeks to 8 months. All from this summer/fall until now. I had 40 goats in spring. I have been using Molly's Herbals since summer and though I don't think this is why I am having so much trouble I do think that I should have killed off the worms first with a chemical wormer and then maintained that with the herbs. Either way, I am ready to give up and I really don't want to because I love goats! I so need a helper/mentor and someone to finish building the barn so I can put the adult goats in for the winter!!!!


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 8, 2010)

I will also add that I had very rarely wormed AT ALL before now which is why they are so loaded. I am trying desperately to get good stock that will handle their worm loads but they are just gonna have to be wormed with chemicals right now. I have 19 goats due to kid between the first of Feb through the end of May. I have three mutt goats (all dairy breed) that are the healthiest goats ever and are thriving though they aren't hardly ever wormed. They have never been sick a day in their lives and they are 4 years, almost 3 years and the kid from the 4 year old that is 8 months now. Even though they are mutts I am thinking on keeping their kids this year. They are so much more resilient.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 8, 2010)

We maintain our herd in mixed deciduous woodland and the goats seemed to do really well on browse rather than pasture.  This decision was more out of necessity than anything else since we're smack in the middle of 14 acres of woods and don't have any grass on the property with the exception of the lawn surrounding our house.  The more I learn about parasite management the happier I am with this arrangement.

Given a choice the goats didn't TOUCH the grass until fall when the leaves had come down and it was the only green vegetation available!  Then they snarfed it.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

rebelINny said:
			
		

> I have had in total a loss of eleven goats ... I had 40 goats in spring. I have been using Molly's Herbals since summer and though *I don't think this is why I am having so much trouble* I do think that I should have killed off the worms first with a chemical wormer and then maintained that with the herbs.


I *do* think that's why you had so much trouble.  Think about it...had the herbals worked, you wouldn't have *needed* to kill anything off with a commercial dewormer.  Right?  

What happened to you was that your goats effectively didn't get dewormed all Spring and Summer, which means they were picking up more and more larvae and cranking out more and more worm eggs as time went on.  Toward the end of summer, going into fall, your goats -- and your pastures -- were incredibly contaminated, which explains the timeline for the deaths..

That's what people need to understand about the barberpoles...they're quite cyclical.  They have a pretty predictable life cycle, and they depend on certain resources (grass, humidity, certain temperatures, etc) to be able to carry on -- just like everything else that lives.  

The life cycle for a barberpole, in a nutshell, is:

Spring -- Overwintered larvae wake up, molt into adults, begin sucking blood and making eggs to contaminate the pasture.  Goats eat the new larvae as they eat grass, then those larvae molt, suck blood, produce eggs, etc..  Pasture and host contamination rise as more larvae molt and produce more eggs which produce more larvae which produce more eggs, etc. -- it's a slow rise at first, but the rise is exponential in nature.

Summer -- Pasture/host contamination continues to worsen.  Weaker goats begin to show signs of infestation.  Spot deworming begins, but goats simply pick up new larvae right away and the problem continues to worsen.

Late Summer -- Contamination is at its worst.  Some goats will require frequent dewormings to stay alive.  If your pastures are overstocked with weak goats (which, to me, means PUREBREDS), things can be **really bad** right about now.  You may start losing animals to worms, despite your best efforts.

Fall -- Worms begin to go dormant.  Weaker goats try to recover before winter; some do, some don't.  Stronger goats start pinking up..  Problem seems to be subsiding.

Winter -- The last of the adult worms are dying off naturally and any new larvae being picked up are remaining dormant in the host as they wait for Spring.  Barberpole larvae aren't good at overwintering on pasture, so the vast majority of larvae on pasture die off in winter.  Pastures aren't necessarily "clean" come Spring, but they're actually pretty close.  *The vast, vast, vast, VAST majority of barberpoles which *will* cause you difficulty *next summer* are already inside your goats as dormant larvae.*

Spring -- overwintered larvae wake up, molt, suck blood, and lay eggs.  Etc., ad nauseum.  Round and round she goes.


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 8, 2010)

So what plan of action do I have? They will pick up worms and larvae and all that crap I know but how do I manage them. I don't want to constantly use chemical wormers. I want my goats to be resilient and have constitutions to handle the wormload but I don't want to lose my whole herd either. Yes, I do have purebreds for the most part, Alpine, except the three that I mentioned earlier that were my first goats and hence mutts for sure but highly strong hardy goats.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

rebelINny said:
			
		

> So what plan of action do I have? They will pick up worms and larvae and all that crap I know but how do I manage them. I don't want to constantly use chemical wormers. I want my goats to be resilient and have constitutions to handle the wormload but I don't want to lose my whole herd either. Yes, I do have purebreds for the most part, Alpine, except the three that I mentioned earlier that were my first goats and hence mutts for sure but highly strong hardy goats.


Keep them off the grass.  Whether that means planting stands of weeds or effectively drylotting your goats and feeding hay all year -- whatever -- barberpole worms require grass to complete their life cycle, so if you can keep your goats off grass, you can effectively stop the life cycle.

I have one other plan, but all the so-called "experts" tell me it won't work..  I think they're wrong -- scratch that, I *know* they're wrong -- but I've not tested it yet, and I won't know until next summer how well it works...or doesn't work, depending.

So...for now...keeping them off the grass is the best I can do ya.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Dec 8, 2010)

I'd recommend rotating pastures/paddocks, stop being afraid to use chemical dewormers if you want your goats to live, but start making note of which goats are always worse off.  Which do poorly? Which seem to be more resistant?  Cull the poorly ones and keep the ones who are more resistant.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I'd recommend rotating pastures/paddocks, stop being afraid to use chemical dewormers if you want your goats to live, but start making note of which goats are always worse off.  Which do poorly? Which seem to be more resistant?  Cull the poorly ones and keep the ones who are more resistant.


Rotating pastures is a waste of time, in my opinion.  That's the case around here, anyway..  The only thing resting a pasture can do for ya is allow the grass to get taller again, which can help keep the goat's nose off the ground -- and that *is* a good thing...  That much, I'll concede..  

However, the problem is that the only time it's beneficial to rotate is during the summer when pastures are really becoming contaminated, but that's also usually when pastures usually aren't really growing.  So, if you 'rotate' away from a pasture and wait for it to grow back up to a reasonable height, you'll pretty much be waiting until Spring...which means you've effectively *retired* that pasture for the year.

Obviously, not most folks' idea of what 'rotation' is all about.

In fact, a certain "internet celebrity" type producer with lots of articles on what to do (many of which are poster children for what NOT to do) on her website recommends resting pastures for 9 weeks because the life cycle of a barberpole worm is only 3 weeks.

:/

The reason that's stupid is because 3 weeks is the life cycle of a barberpole *from the time it's consumed as larvae until it becomes an adult capable of producing eggs.*  That's fact, and it's not even a particularly helpful fact..  Another FACT is that barberpole larvae can live *far* longer than 9 weeks on pasture during the summer in temperate climates.  So all she's really recommending is that you give all those larvae ample opportunity to hatch out, slither up the grass to position themselves perfectly, and wait..._then_ turn the herd loose on them again.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Winter -- The last of the adult worms are dying off naturally and any new larvae being picked up are remaining dormant in the host as they wait for Spring.  Barberpole larvae aren't good at overwintering on pasture, so the vast majority of larvae on pasture die off in winter.  Pastures aren't necessarily "clean" come Spring, but they're actually pretty close.  *The vast, vast, vast, VAST majority of barberpoles which *will* cause you difficulty *next summer* are already inside your goats as dormant larvae.*


Might it be a good idea to worm the heck out of the entire herd during the winter then, regardless of the fecals (because they aren't shedding eggs) or FAMACHA (because the larvae are dormant?)  We've been doing fecals and worming as needed since late summer, but it almost sounds like I'd be missing an opportunity to knock out barberpoles if I continued to worm as needed in Winter.  We don't have pasture, just woodland browse and drylots.


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 8, 2010)

We do pasture/forage for our goats and hay during winter. We rotate as much as possible with five 60ft. portable electric fences. We do have alot of trees/brush that they always knock out first then they graze. I guess I should take them away from the pasture after they knock out the trees and brush and let the cows have the grass. May try that next year. Until them here come the chemicals. I just wormed five of my 5-8 month kids and used up all the ivomec (wasn't much left). My mother in law is picking up more from TSC when she is in town. Hoping to dose up the rest tomorrow. Thanks for the advice cmjust0. I would go crazy without goat support groups like this!!!This job is stressful!!


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> So, if you 'rotate' away from a pasture and wait for it to grow back up to a reasonable height, you'll pretty much be waiting until Spring...which means you've effectively *retired* that pasture for the year.
> 
> *Obviously, not most folks' idea of what 'rotation' is all about.*


Well then they've got the whole idea wrong.  Rotating pastures doesn't mean keep them off for a certain number of days. Rotating pastures means keeping them off until the grass has grown back to a sufficient height. If that means the rest of the year, so be it. The main idea of rotating pastures is for the health of the pasture. It's a secondary benefit that it provides better forage for the animals.  Rotating, while not totally eliminating parasites from the cycle, means that animals generally won't be forced to graze near manure piles and won't be overstocked on one area (that's the whole idea, anyways).  And if Rebel could totally keep the goats off an area for several months then switch them back to it, it'd greatly help I bet.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HMMMMMM..  YEAH... SEEMS THAT WAY, HUH?



That may or may not be the very idea I've run past more than a few so-called 'experts,' only to be told it probably won't work...but not *why* it won't work...and then encouraged to try it and get back to them with my results.

Problem is, most dewormers that will actually kill hypobiotic barberpoles have been used to the point of near-uselessness, so the trick is to find something that still works..

I think I found one, but it's not technically legal here -- but it *is* here, if you know where to look -- and if you O/D it, they go blind.

Haven't quite made my mind up yet, but I'm certainly keen on avoiding this past summers white-eyed worries..  :/


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you have enough pasture to rest several sections for an entire year, chances are that you're not stocked at a heavy enough rate to have severe parasite problems anyway...at which point rotation becomes *entirely* about pasture management.

Perhaps I should have qualified my "rotating pastures is a waste of time" statement with "in terms of parasite management."


----------



## Ariel301 (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> rebelINny said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting. With horses, I was always taught that they would have a lower wormload on pasture than in a dry lot where the manure could build up more. You're saying it's the opposite with goats, that keeping them in a drylot on hay reduces the load, at least with barberpole? (As long as they're not eating their hay off the ground, obviously that's a problem)


----------



## Beekissed (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Sheep are naturally adapted to grazing which almost certainly makes them more parasite resistant than goats.  Despite how similar goats and sheep seem to be, it really is an applesranges comparison.


I would say, if you asked any serious sheep farmer, he would beg to differ with you.  Especially in the south.  They seem to have quite a problem with barber pole worms there as well.  

Maybe, since sheep have been more marketable than goats, until recent years, more effort has been put into developing genetics that are more parasite resistant, rather than sheep just being naturally so.  

If I were all that serious about raising goats, that would be my first goal....culling and breeding towards this problem.  Goats will never be truly a cost efficient stock animal until this problem is resolved and it certainly won't be solved by throwing more chemicals at it.  It merely develops a lovely strain of super parasites that require more and harsher chemical intervention.  

Apparently the sheep guys are on a learning curve and the goat folks need to hop on the train.


----------



## Ariel301 (Dec 8, 2010)

I would agree that we need to work towards resistance, especially with purebred animals. I grew up around livestock, and the impression I got from goats was that they were about the hardiest thing around. Since getting a few purebred goats, I've learned that's not really so...

It seems that goats do really well as a livestock animal in places like Africa and Asia where they don't have any veterinary care at all. Those animals are living on almost nothing and still healthy enough to be worth keeping. I doubt many of them have ever been dewormed. I can't imagine dumping one of my dairy does out there and her even living more than a few weeks, our pedigreed stock just isn't that tough, and we need to work back towards that. 

I used to have two horses, a Barb mare that had grown up wild and a pinto warmblood gelding. The gelding was constantly thin, always needed deworming and a lot of feed. The Barb, who was pretty well lacking in "beauty" features we like in our competitive show animals, was also very healthy. She was dewormed once a year, never wore shoes or even got a foot trim, and was perfectly happy outside when it was -20 degrees. She was also extremely fat on 2 flakes of hay a day and no grain, despite being worked heavily. That's how we need our goats to be!


----------



## mully (Dec 8, 2010)

I have used the herbal wormer from Hoeggers Supply and have been using it for the past 5 years. The herbal wormer works well for me but I also use Ivermec around June when the worm load can creep up in count and i do this because I would have to increase the herbal to the point of causing scours.  I tried Mollies herbal but it is not ground fine enough as I mix the powder with molasses and make a "meat ball" and give it to the heard.  The goats love the stuff and I have to herd them into small groups to be manageable. I use the herbal wormer every week ...even in the winter.  I would not change my program for any new drug that comes on the market as I have not lost a goat to worms in 5 years.


----------



## Beekissed (Dec 8, 2010)

Now that's an "AMEN!" if I ever heard one!  FIVE YEARS!!!!  

I don't care what lab you presently place your faith in, real life situations by real people are much more convincing in my book.


----------



## ksalvagno (Dec 8, 2010)

Mully - how many goats do you have and how big of a pasture are they in? I'm just curious because I'm trying to find my way with 17 goats on about an acre.


----------



## Our7Wonders (Dec 8, 2010)

> I would agree that we need to work towards resistance, especially with purebred animals. I grew up around livestock, and the impression I got from goats was that they were about the hardiest thing around. Since getting a few purebred goats, I've learned that's not really so...
> 
> It seems that goats do really well as a livestock animal in places like Africa and Asia where they don't have any veterinary care at all. Those animals are living on almost nothing and still healthy enough to be worth keeping. I doubt many of them have ever been dewormed. I can't imagine dumping one of my dairy does out there and her even living more than a few weeks, our pedigreed stock just isn't that tough, and we need to work back towards that.
> 
> I used to have two horses, a Barb mare that had grown up wild and a pinto warmblood gelding. The gelding was constantly thin, always needed deworming and a lot of feed. The Barb, who was pretty well lacking in "beauty" features we like in our competitive show animals, was also very healthy. She was dewormed once a year, never wore shoes or even got a foot trim, and was perfectly happy outside when it was -20 degrees. She was also extremely fat on 2 flakes of hay a day and no grain, despite being worked heavily. That's how we need our goats to be!


I find this thread interesting.  I know next to nothing about goats, especially real, hands on stuff because I've only been a goat keeper for just over a week.  Your statement though, has me wondering.

Please don't anybody freak out on me, because I am new.  I realize I have a lot to learn and I know the wormer issue seems to be a hot topic here at times.  Having said all that, my two does that I just brought home have NEVER been wormed chemically.  (They've never had vaccinations or any kind of antibiotics for that matter either).  The dairy that I bought them from worms only with garlic on a lunar cycle.  Now please don't yell at me.  I know that is not likely how ANY of you would do things - BUT - the thing is, her does seem healthy.  Again, take it for what it's worth, I admit I may not know a healthy goat from a goat on her death bed, the does at the dairy are the only goats I've EVER had contact with.  I've been assisting at the dariy once or twice a week throughout the summer and fall - her does just never seem to have any issues. 

I thought about having a vet run a fecal (maybe someday I'll learn that, but, yeah, call me a baby, I'm just not ready to start playing with poop yet - baby steps) but then, as it's been pointed out on here, this time of year I likely wouldn't see a high count anyway, right?  Their coat seems healthy, their eyes look clear and healthy, their poop looks good (had the slightest bit of clumping on just one day, likely from the stress of transporting/transitioning) and they seem to eat and drink normally.  

At the dairy the goats would get essential oils and herbs for any first aid that was needed, which, from my understanding was very seldom.  

All the does on her farm have been raised holistically since she started about 20 years ago.  Perhaps some resistance runs in thier blood lines?  I dunno, I'm not even sure I'm qualified to venture a guess.  They seem healthy, they kid easily, and apparantly are pretty hardy.  My ONLY concern is that milk production seems low, but their grain rations are less than a cup of whole oats on the milk stand top dressed with a few BOSS.  I figure I can work on the milk supply in the spring after they kid - I'm working towards drying them up for now.  

The does are 3.5 and 2.5 years old.  The older doe has freshened 3 times and the younger doe once.  They are nubian pure breds, though not registered (she stopped registering several years ago since she wasn't showing anymore.)  I keep questioning the lady I bought them from about things like toxemia and she keeps telling me to relax, she's never had any problems and after years of raising goats she prefers to be more hands-off than to intervine on prenatal and postnatal care.

At this point I'm afraid to make any changes.  Don't fix what ain't broke, KWIM?.  I'll have fecals ran in the spring - maybe shortly after they both kid?.  I won't know how to use the information the vets give me, but it'll give me a starting point for research I guess. 

Now, having said all this, I'm not saying this is the right way to do things.  I'm not even saying this is the way I'm going to do things.  It's just interesting to me that her methods of animal husbandry seem crazy in contrast to everything I've read - yet it seems to be working for her.

FWIW, she has a licensed dairy in WA state.  She is subject to all sorts of regulations and inspections in order to be able to sell her raw goats milk.  Her milk and facility always passes the inspections - I guess that doesn't mean she has healthy goats, just healthy milk - but I would think unhealthy goats would have a difficult time producing good quality milk.

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all.  Please don't throw anything at me.  I'm not very good at debating - I'd rather run and hide.


----------



## Beekissed (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm sorry that you have to feel like you will get attacked for your post on this forum.  It shouldn't be that way just because someone is raising their animals holistically.  

Don't worry...there are many of us on here that do and we just don't care about "The Herd" and that mentality.  Post away and ignore the folks who don't actually do it but have plenty of disparaging things to say about it.  

I'd consult with your dairy lady about increasing grain rations to produce more milk....could be a reason she does not do this and it could have something to do with her goat's general health.  Ruminates do much better with a mostly grass diet and too many grains could start to affect their digestive system and ultimately their health.  

I'm sure, if she could safely do this and still keep her goat herd healthy, she would be feeding more grain....after all, more milk is more money and that is a GOOD thing, right?  

Sounds like your goats come from great lines!  Congrats!  Keep us posted about how you get along with them?


----------



## adoptedbyachicken (Dec 9, 2010)

I lived in an area with resistant worms for a bit, and no real winter to speak of, coastal rainforest, occasional snow and freeze but nothing that could be relied on.  The owner of the land also had goats that could run with the horses or stay in their own area because, well, they were goats and fencing was not goat proof. 

Anyway the key to horse management there was the five day fenbendazole double dose mid winter.  That's how we manged to get it under control, knock them out while dormant and I find it interesting that I have never heard this discussed for goats.  In horses you can't get the dormant worms in a single day dose, is there ever a place for that with goats?

Anyway back to her goats, which would come up to the barn if we were feeding grain (easy way to do the FBDD) and she always did them too, and i don't recall her ever loosing one, or ever worming in the summer, and those goats were always fat and healthy looking.  But true they spent all the time I can recall browsing, eating the blackberries and the scrub shrubs that were everywhere.  The horses had all the grass down to the dirt anyway.

But back on topic I have no goats around now, but have seen in horses that they are best left to develop some resistance to worms rather than treated without cause.  If your feeding a natural product that is a natural poison (as some are) I don't see that as much different than the chemical poisons.  Killing off the worms before the critter has the chance to learn to fight them it's self IMO is shooting yourself in the foot, or maybe I should say shooting the critter in the hoof.  If your feeding a natural product that is immune supportive or digestive purgative or just known to reduce the egg shedding of some worms I can see in theory how that might be helpful.  However I have yet to see enough of a change to say that it's working well for anyone that I have watched try it alone, however I admit I have not seen anyone really stick with it either.  I have seen some doing better with herbal help than those around them using chemicals only.

So there is probably little correlation between horses and goats, but I'll put this out there anyway.  That barn that I was at with the goats used to have very strict old school policies on worming.  The horses were to be wormed on the barn's schedule and it was part of the price of the board.  She called the vet every 2 months, the wormer of choice (rotation schedule) was delivered and we administered it.  And the horses got weaker and the worms got resistant, and we had to move to the winter 5DDFB to solve it, ever after only summer worming horses that looked like they needed it and never everyone at the same time.  Not a surprise, the same lesson many have learned and to me it looks like goat owners are learning it too.

Lastly I gotta say go with what works for you and your farm.  I had a great idea how to handle worms many times in my life and then I moved and found out I knew nothing all over again.  Everything else in your management will have an impact on your worming routine, as will your location and climate.  My last move, coming here and seeing wild deer belly up to my round bale feeders right beside my horses in winter, and graze right beside them in summer while moose waded in their water supply eating their browse of wetland plants I thought I'd have the worst worm issues ever.  I have had some of the least instead.  Now the external parasites, that's another story....  Lice and/or deer ticks anyone?  Yours for the cost of shipping!

And for anyone fearful of discussing this or anything here the report button is your friend.  It's on the bottom right of every offensive post.


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 9, 2010)

Well I will be dosing all my goats Ivomec right now and then they will go back on the herbal wormer every week. I will do fecal test to watch them. I just need to knock out the huge amounts first to get them manageable with the herbs. The herbs aren't meant to unload a loaded goat only to manage them from a low count from then on out.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 9, 2010)

rebelINny said:
			
		

> Well I will be dosing all my goats Ivomec right now and then they will go back on the herbal wormer every week. I will do fecal test to watch them. I just need to knock out the huge amounts first to get them manageable with the herbs. The herbs aren't meant to unload a loaded goat only to manage them from a low count from then on out.


The question then becomes...even if the herbs are meant to manage worms starting from a low EPG count, why would the goats have developed a high EPG in the first place if they'd been wormed with herbals throughout the spring and summer?


----------



## freemotion (Dec 9, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> rebelINny said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same reason they develop high counts on chemical dewormers.


----------



## jodief100 (Dec 9, 2010)

I am one who likes to stick with proven remedies and most of the herbs are not proven.  That being said, I am finding out a lot of the chemicals are not really either.  

What you said about the herbs not being meant to unload a lot of worms makes sense.   They really arent meant to do anything, they are natural substances and that is what they DO. My understanding is that the way the herbals are believed to work is they poison the worms.  In many cases, the herbs would poison the goats too, at high doses.  So you give regular, low doses.  I suspect a dose large enough to kill off a large load of worms would be detrimental to the goat.  

That is where the chemicals supposedly differ from the herbs.  The pharmaceuticals are designed to be targeting whereas the herbs are just doing what they do naturally.  

Even though I am an herbal wormer skeptic, I like to see discussions like this.  None of us will ever know what works until we try it.  This allows everyone to share their data.  I am much more inclined to believe herbs may work when someone says  I have used them for 5 years and never lost a goat than I am when someone who is trying to sell me their herbal says it works and has no empirical data to back up their statement.  

All of this is far from a scientific double blind test.  Just because it worked for one person doesnt guarantee the herbals work, just that persons goats under those conditions do not have worm problems.  They might just have worm resistant goats.  Also remember what CM said- if it works all winter but not in the summer, it might not be doing anything at all.  

I do know someone who swears that he keeps his goats healthy by turning them out periodically in a field of plants that are supposedly poisonous. He says the goats will eat just enough to kill the worms and not themselves.  He says he hasnt wormed a goat in 10 years. Maybe he is onto something; maybe all of his susceptible goats have already died and are out of his herd.  

Keep sharing your experiences.  Eventually we will get this figured out or we will get the wormy goats out of the gene pool trying.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Dec 9, 2010)

Well I'm on the fence about both purchased chemical dewormers and herbal chemical dewormers. I mean, that's all the herbs are doing right? Using different chemicals?  For example, some folks use tobacco to deworm because it's "natural", but in order for it to really have an effect you have to give high doses with is also (surprise) toxic for the goat.  

And using herbal dewormers for 5 years and not losing goats is great, but Ivermectin was also used, FWIW.  I definitely think that animals can thrive without conventional dewormers, but not in all situations/herds/flocks/areas, etc.


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 9, 2010)

They didn't develop high counts on the herbal wormer, that is my point, they already had high counts cause I didn't worm them out with something stronger first. The herbs maintain the low count.


----------



## cmjust0 (Dec 9, 2010)

rebelINny said:
			
		

> They didn't develop high counts on the herbal wormer, that is my point, they already had high counts cause I didn't worm them out with something stronger first. The herbs maintain the low count.


You said you dewormed them with herbals all spring and summer, right?


----------



## rebelINny (Dec 9, 2010)

I actually think I started the wormer in Sept. so no not spring and summer. I had used Ivomec in the spring once.


----------



## mully (Dec 9, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Mully - how many goats do you have and how big of a pasture are they in? I'm just curious because I'm trying to find my way with 17 goats on about an acre.


I have 21 goats on 2.5 acres but I split the herd... I have 9 on 3/4 acre (smaller ..younger) and 12 on about 1 3/4 acre. Mostly boer does and a few wethers as I do not keep bucks.


----------



## mrssmitho (Jan 2, 2011)

Howdy all! and a very Happy New Year!!!
I am fixing to get my first goats...so, of course I have to read everything. We have chickens, turkeys, a couple cows...and I try to be all organic. Mostly due to the fact I am cheap and it works. There is a LOT more work involved and I am NOT afraid to use commercial if I have to...but I do like knowing I can grow most of my critters "well being"...and did I mention it is cheap?

My opinion on worming: I grow pumpkins for their nutritional value and for the seeds for all the critters in the natural de-wormer field.

Cheyenne pepper is also a wonderful, immediate, de-wormer.

for those who can find the seed, a new one for me is Epazote. Check it out on this link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysphania_ambrosioides 

We do use commercial wormers for the dogs...but I am going to try the carrots. That is just way too cool!!

Thank you for the giggles and defiantly the info!!!!!


----------



## Our7Wonders (Jan 2, 2011)

Welcome!!!

I have heard of pumkin seeds as a natural wormafuge and am going to grow some specifically for my goats this next year.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out soon.


----------



## mrssmitho (Jan 2, 2011)

I had never heard of the Espazolte...but the lady I am getting my goats from gave me some seed. If I have a good seed crop, I'll offer up some to share


----------

