# Maremma / Border Collie X ??



## Azriel

I can get a 5month Maremma/ Border Collie male pup free. His owners are giving him away because he is killing  chickens and chasing the goats, they caught him mouthing one of their day old kids yesterday.  I have not met him yet, but it sounds like he is totally untrained, and just allowed to run wild. I think that 5 months is still young enough to break from the bad habits, but I'm unsure about the LGD/Herding dog cross.  
I have trained several high in trail obedience and herding trial champions, but have never worked with a LGD, but I do think that teaching a puppy manners is pretty much the same for any breed. I was told by his owner  " Oh we have never had him on a leash, that would be cruel for this breed"  Really!! Are you crazy.
So, what do you all think. I would like to give this pup a chance.


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## BrownSheep

For a pet or herding dog, sure, but I would not trust it for LGD purposes. It sounds like its inherited more of the border collie than the LGD. I also wouldn't trust it with any livestock alone.


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## Four Winds Ranch

X2!!!


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## Southern by choice

No WAY!

The nature of a herding dog is very,very  (let me emphasize the _very_ different part) from a LGD' nature.
Herding dogs are awesome.
LGD's are awesome.
They have distinct abilities. When crossed it makes for a really terrible dog in probably 99% of the cases. 
LGD's are worked with in a very different manner and truly they are not like any other dogs out there. Sadly this dog is set up for failure as any kind of guardian. 

The Maremma is also one of the smallest of the LGD breeds and crossed with a BC I honestly do not see it being an effective guardian, setting aside the other obvious issues. There is a reason LGD's are massive in size, they need to be.  

All of our LGD's are lead trained with basic manners so it is of course... not cruel.
This dog would be better as a pet for a family that has some land.

I wonder if this was another knucklehead that thought "oh, wait let me cross my LGD with a herding dog and I can get a herding Guardian".     

LGD x LGD no problem
LGD x HD


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## fluttervale

Expect to get the worst possible combination of traits, and then be pleasantly surprised when that assumption is wrong.

You could well get a very large, seriously assertive dog with the energy level and intelligence of a BC.  That's a lawsuit waiting to happen, IMHO.  Or you could get the best of both worlds--something very laid back but willing to learn and work with you.


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## babsbag

I agree that this is a bad mix, but ANY pup at 5 months will kill chickens and mouth and chase livestock, even an LGD if they are left to their own entertainment. It isn't the mix of breeds that makes him do those things, it is just that he is a pup. Puppies paly.

Would I bring him home as an LGD? No way, not ever, ain't happin'. Can he make a good pet, sure. My male LGD is maremma x Pyr. and I would never call him big or assertive. He is basically a big chicken so he barks at everything. It works so what can I say? I think that in the right environment he could do ok.


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## bcnewe2

I think it's a nightmare waiting to happen. 

I own both border collies, and an LGD pup and other lgd's in the past.  
So lets think about this....Dog grows up a bit it's out in the field, lamb dancing starts.  The prey drive of a border collie kicks in. 
Just so you know the herding instinct of a border collie is honed and specifically bred for advanced prey drive with the Kill part usually bred out. But they are drawn to work moving things. So they go after the dancing lambs or goats.  
But then their guarding side kicks in so they need to protect the little baby that they just mauled about to death.

Poor dog would forever be confused. If you don't have other stock it could work but with livestock I think you are just asking for trouble.

And yes any dog untrained might go after chickens or livestock but this mix is certain to get it's self in trouble.

Do you want it cause it's free or the challenge?  

Free= go down to the shelter and grab a big dog that looks similar to a guarding dog and you'll probably do better than this cross

Challenge- take this dog but don't make him a guard.  Please don't make him a guard.

I have been training border collies for 15 years to work livestock.  They are great in the right hands, you have trained them yourself. 

Do you have any or have you ever had any that would make a good LGD?


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## Grazer

I agree with everyone else. Getting this pup as a future LGD would be a very, very bad idea.
Best livestock guardians are to be found in these breeds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog#List_of_breeds 
And after one decides which LGD breed they are going to go with, one should try to only get a puppy from proven, working parents. 
Mixing an LGD with a non-LGD and especially a herding dog should never be done. I think the posts above mine explain really well why not exactly, so I have nothing more to add


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## Azriel

Well, I went and met the pup tonight, and OK brought him home. He is a nice boy, but totally untrained as in no training at all, doesn't even know his name. I'm not even sure he had a name. How sad. He is small, about 50#, very high energy, and shows more herding traits than gardian to me. 
The first thing he tried to do when I got him home was to go after my house cat. My Belgian Tervuren put him in his place right away. No one touches her cat. 
A friend of mine that works with dogs for handicapped people came over and evaluated him, and thinks he has great potential to be a helper for a young man that is in a wheelchair. She took him home and will start his training tomorrow.
I'm glad we could save his life.


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## BrownSheep

Yay! Sounds like a pup that was just left to his own devices!


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## babsbag

Azriel said:
			
		

> Well, I went and met the pup tonight, and OK brought him home. He is a nice boy, but totally untrained as in no training at all, doesn't even know his name. I'm not even sure he had a name. How sad. He is small, about 50#, very high energy, and shows more herding traits than gardian to me.
> The first thing he tried to do when I got him home was to go after my house cat. My Belgian Tervuren put him in his place right away. No one touches her cat.
> A friend of mine that works with dogs for handicapped people came over and evaluated him, and thinks he has great potential to be a helper for a young man that is in a wheelchair. She took him home and will start his training tomorrow.
> I'm glad we could save his life.


What a rewarding job that would be to train dogs for that purpose, many hats off to your friend. I think that is awesome. Even some LGDs make better "pets" than working dogs. My border collies only herd themselves so even they are just pets. I think it is great that you gave him a chance and hopefully a purpose in life. It could be a great fit.

That is funny about your cat.


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## Stubbornhillfarm

Great job Azriel heeding advice, yet still making a way for this working dog to have a job.  There are always places for different dogs.  But we as compassionate people can't give in to the, "it's cute,  I want to help save it"  but rather,  actually think about what situation is best suited so that the dog can succeed.  Nicely done!


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## Grazer

This is such good news. I am happy to hear that this puppy will remain a working dog, but in a field where his instincts & intelligence will truly be appreciated.
I hope he becomes an amazing helping/guiding dog one day. 
This pup was so lucky that you found him Azriel


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## Azriel

I stopped to see how the pup was doing tonight, and my friend is unbeliveable with these dogs. He met with the young man that will be owning him and was named Dax, and it looks like he will be a good fit with this young man.  He is already comming to his name, fetching a ball,  has learned watch me, and is pretty good with stop, which she uses to actually stop movement and either stand or sit still. My friend will be working with him for about 2 months, then another month or 2 with the new owner. 
I will be taking him in to the vet I work with to have him nutered next week.


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