# Loving my dogs again! Pics



## woodsie (Feb 20, 2013)

My husband and I are really fighting regarding the training of our two GPs, my female is 1yr and male is 2yr old. My husband thinks that they just need the strongest shock collar on the market and blast them to kingdom come when they do something we don't like (crossing the fence line when we cross the fence, chasing chickens etc). 

These dogs (esp. the female) did not care about the shock while crossing the fence with her 'stubborn dog" invisible fence shock collar as she figured out that the pain was worth it and short lived, I trimmed her hair short on her collar and had it so cinched down she was getting holes in her neck from the probes ....still have zero affect in keeping her in when she wanted to leave. I can't see how more, yet inconsistent power (it only works if we see something happen and have the zapper with us) is going to fix the problem and I am worried that I am going to be left with shells of what an LGD is supposed to be. I do not want to ruin these dogs but we are really fighting about it.

The local farm store gave him a website where you can order a collar system that literally makes the dogs sh#% themselves and I can't bear to do that to my stubborn but sensitive Pyrs. I don't want a dog to be so insecure that he is afraid to make a move....am I being completely softhearted and the shock collar method will work the best? 

I am hotwiring the sheep pen and pretty confident that they will be contained there and they are great with the goats and sheep... they are not all bad. The pen is only about 1/2 acre though and much smaller than they are used to patrolling, but better penned with the sheep than dead on the highway. I am prepared to leave them with the sheep for a few months until I get more fencing complete. Then there is my mother who is also the property who is a COMPLETE softy who thinks it is so mean to keep them in the small pen and wants to get the whole perimeter fenced tomorrow with a gate that automatically opens when you drive through....great idea mom, but she's not going to do any of the work.  ARRRRR! I am totally caught in the middle and need some EXPERIENCED LGD owners to weigh in on what is best. 

Thanks, you have no idea how much I appreciate all your advice!


----------



## Grazer (Feb 20, 2013)

I personally would never recommend shock collars. 
The risk of forever mentally damaging a dog is too great. 

These two websites here: http://www.inetdesign.com/wolfdunn/wolfdogfaq/containment.html & http://www.wolf-to-wolfdog.org/chapter3.pdf 
explain really well how to build a proper containment for dogs prone to roaming. The articles were written for owners with wolf hybrids, but it is just as useful for anyone who has LGD's with wanderlust.
So if I were you, I would look into these articles and follow their instructions, rather than getting a stronger shock collar.
Shock collars may be a cheaper solution short term, but the damage they can do is just not worth it.

As for your dogs chasing chicken....there is no quick fix for that.
You will have to spend a lot of time correcting the bad behavior and rewarding them every time they ignore the chicken. 
It is also very important to never leave the dogs you can't trust with poultry when you are not there to supervise. 
You may want to take a look at this article about LGD's and chicken: http://www.anatoliandog.org/poultry.htm 

There is no quick fix because chasing is a self-rewarding behavior, but if you put enough time and energy into training your dogs, you will be amazed at how much they are going to improve.


----------



## Southern by choice (Feb 20, 2013)

This would be a terrible abuse of what a training shock collar is used for. Yes your husband WILL ruin the dogs. 

LGD's NEED FENCES actual fences. Your DH is trying to subvert the nature of these dogs.  It is clear, and no offense here, your DH has no business in this matter. Clearly there has not been a good understanding at least on his part of what LGD's are their use their instincts etc.  

Either put up solid fencing OR re-home these dogs before they are rendered useless. 
Sometimes you have to suck it up and realize the dogs didn't fail you...you failed the dogs.     I say that with great compassion. I can see how upset you are. Stand your ground, do not let him do this. 

You can always pm me and if you need help re-homing I'll do what I can. Don't remember what part of the country your in.


----------



## woodsie (Feb 20, 2013)

thanks...I knew in my heart that the big shock collar was not the answer....just needed some reassurance...thank you! There is no way I would let anyone do that to do my dogs, it just makes me so mad being accused of knowing what needs to be done, when I am the one who reads up and tries to be educated regarding LGDs. It is so difficult to reason with someone that is truly ignorant on the subject....it doesn't help when he goes to the feed store and the staff encourage the behaviour either. 

In fairness to my DH he did agree that putting them in with the sheep was the best answer and dropped the shock collar issue when I told him how upset I was....and he spent all day finishing the hotwire, straightening some wobbly posts and even installed a DRIVE IN gate!!! YAY! So the fence should be very solid and LGD escape proof. 

I think they will be fine in the pen for the short term...they seem to really enjoy their time with the sheep and goats and I would like them to be living with them when it comes lambing time anyhow. The rest of the fencing will come in time, but until the snow melts there is not much of anything useful to be done. 

Southern, we are in BC, Canada but I know that we will get it worked out for the dogs...but I sincerely appreciate teh offer...I would rehome them before letting them be damaged. I was literally on the verge of tears almost all day at the idea of such a shock collar. They really are incredibly sensitive dogs, a lot of love goes much further with them than any amount of pain...I just wish my husband would have a little more patience and understanding with them sometimes. I keep telling him that chasing chickens when they flapp is NORMAL....most of the time they are really awesome with them, even when they are free ranging outside the chicken run. Good dogs...he just sees the bad incidents instead of all the good they have done. We have had very little trouble with them for 6 months and it has just been a bad week....kind of like when your really good kids go through a new phase, that is incredibly frustrating but very normal. Hopefully in the good fencing we can start to truly APPRECIATE their qualities and sweet nature instead of chasing them and pulling our hair out. 

Thanks again for the support!


----------



## sunflowerparrot (Feb 20, 2013)

I DO have a shock collar for my GPs and use it only for chasing chickens. I had a puppy that started chasing chickens and used to collar twice - never had a problem with her after that. I have another puppy who I put the shock collar on and have never had to use it. I just got a new puppy yesterday - yes, the shock collar will go on her too. I don't leave the collars on and only put them on during the time the chickens are out of the coop. I don't think you need to zap them to kingdom come - (my device has a vibrate, low and high shock). The one pup I had to use it on twice... I did the low shock the first time and she just jumped a bit and looked behind her like "what was that!" but when she went again to chase, I used to high shock. She literally jumped up off the ground, yelped and that was the end of it. I never had to use it again on her.. she got the message loud and clear the 2nd time.

I think if used right, the shock collar is the same as an electric fence - but - you have to be on top of the situation and consistent (just like the electric fence). It's hard if you don't have the time to devote to the training. I literally looked out of every single window for almost 3 straight days watching every interaction with puppy/chicken.


----------



## Southern by choice (Feb 20, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

> thanks...I knew in my heart that the big shock collar was not the answer....just needed some reassurance...thank you! There is no way I would let anyone do that to do my dogs, it just makes me so mad being accused of knowing what needs to be done, when I am the one who reads up and tries to be educated regarding LGDs. It is so difficult to reason with someone that is truly ignorant on the subject....it doesn't help when he goes to the feed store and the staff encourage the behaviour either.
> 
> In fairness to my DH he did agree that putting them in with the sheep was the best answer and dropped the shock collar issue when I told him how upset I was....and he spent all day finishing the hotwire, straightening some wobbly posts and even installed a DRIVE IN gate!!! YAY! So the fence should be very solid and LGD escape proof.
> 
> ...


 I hear your heart. I am curious why they weren't in with the sheep and goats to begin with... maybe I missed something here.

Also, this is for you...not Dh   the use of a shock training collar is acceptable when trying to work with a dog to correct chicken issues and chasing goats or lambs etc.  I sense you have discernment of the proper use of a collar.

 If it makes you feel any better there have been so many people that have also thought the invisible fence would work, just like those that swear _their _LGD will _never_ kill a chicken etc... no matter how many times experienced LGD owners or trainers tell em....  
I think it's human nature   Chalk it up to another experience of "learned lessons" in life. DON'T BEAT  YOURSELF UP ABOUT IT!

I like your analogy of the good kid that goes through a phase! 

If you notice the only thing I have in my signature is about the Pyrenees! I   them! I can tell you do too! You should post a picture of the naughtisome  two!


----------



## babsbag (Feb 20, 2013)

sunflowerparrot said:
			
		

> I DO have a shock collar for my GPs and use it only for chasing chickens. I had a puppy that started chasing chickens and used to collar twice - never had a problem with her after that. I have another puppy who I put the shock collar on and have never had to use it. I just got a new puppy yesterday - yes, the shock collar will go on her too. I don't leave the collars on and only put them on during the time the chickens are out of the coop. I don't think you need to zap them to kingdom come - (my device has a vibrate, low and high shock). The one pup I had to use it on twice... I did the low shock the first time and she just jumped a bit and looked behind her like "what was that!" but when she went again to chase, I used to high shock. She literally jumped up off the ground, yelped and that was the end of it. I never had to use it again on her.. she got the message loud and clear the 2nd time.
> 
> I think if used right, the shock collar is the same as an electric fence - but - you have to be on top of the situation and consistent (just like the electric fence). It's hard if you don't have the time to devote to the training. I literally looked out of every single window for almost 3 straight days watching every interaction with puppy/chicken.


Ditto on the collar, but it took mine more than twice. 

That is the only thing I have ever used it for. My neighbor wanted me to put it on the male and then give him the remote and he would train him not to bark. I wanted to put the collar on the neighbor.  Neither happened.


----------



## woodsie (Feb 21, 2013)

Where to start...last night I went out and my husband put the dogs in the pen that had been much reinforced...good solid 5" fence...but he did not have the hot wire on yet. Well they escaped AGAIN went to the ranch across the highway and this morning our female was found eating a day old calf. They claim she killed it but no one actually saw it....Samson made his way back home with no blood on him. The ranch is not well run (we know people that used to work there) and it there is no protection for the cows and calfs so it is possible that the calf was killed by a predator and she was just eating the remains....but I don't know? She was chasing eagles off the carcass.

Has anyone heard of a Pyr attacking/killing a calf? I have such a hard time believing she could do it...our neighbour no more than 100 yard away has 350 goats kidding right now (you can hear the babies) and they have never even gone to investigate. She has killed a chicken before but has never done ANYTHING to our sheep, goats, cats, etc. The hotwire is going on today and will be sure to go through training to respect the fence so I am sure she will not be escaping again, but is she "ruined" as an LGD if she is killing babies?

Sure need some good news, I am beside myself with fear and frustration.


----------



## sunflowerparrot (Feb 21, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> sunflowerparrot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------------------

I wanted to put the collar on a friend of mine during Halloween and told her she could go as a bad puppy and me as the owner... lol.. she didn't want to - I don't understand why not!


----------



## redtailgal (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm sorry Woodsie.  It's got to be frustrating.

However, if I were the farmer that found her eating my calf, I would expect compensation ESP since you've been having trouble with this dog getting out.  

BUT, if I were you, I'd argue that the calf could have been killed by predators, or even died on its own.

What's the RIGHT thing to do here?  Perhaps you could offer to pay half the value of the calf for the sake of maintaining a good relationship with your neighbor?

I hate to say it, I know it sounds cruel..........but if it were me, I'd have to re-home both dogs and start over.  I just wouldnt want the liablility of having a known escape artist, and possible livestock killer.


----------



## ksalvagno (Feb 21, 2013)

It sounds to me like having LGD's may not be for you. It may be best to rehome these guys. if you have to shock them so hard that they poop, then it is time to move them on. That would just be too cruel.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 21, 2013)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> It sounds to me like having LGD's may not be for you. It may be best to rehome these guys. if you have to shock them so hard that they poop, then it is time to move them on. That would just be too cruel.


Did you read it all? Because she saying they don't want to do that. Her husband wanted to but I think they both realize that's not the way to go.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 21, 2013)

My heart aches for you.

Unfortunately LGDs are know for being escape artists. If you re-home these and start over you will quite likely have the same escape problem. I put up an electic fence that HURTS and they learned about it as pups, and I mean little guys, 8 weeks old. They are now over 2 years and they don't even touch the fence. My boy won't even go through a gate that is near the hot wire. The wire is at the top of the fence and about 12-15 inches off the ground. My fences are 4' high.

As far as her killing a calf, you will never know. It could have been her, it could have been a game of chase that got out of control, but typically these dogs don't have a prey drive that will chase and kill and eat, but it does happen. 

But also, part of an LGDs job is to clean up the pasture of anything that would attract predators, and for some dogs that means cleaning up "eating" dead animals. 

There is a lot of variances in the possibly scenario. Does she think she needs to protect that pasture as well as her own? If not, then she might not see the calf as something she needs to protect but rather as a toy and then she could have done the deed, most lkely by accident. My dogs kill chickens, but they don't hunt them down and slaughter them; they play with them and kill them by rough handling. Then the female will eat them, never the male. But, my male be very well be the one chasing the chicken to its death.

I don't know what I would do next. If you can keep her home I would probably just keep a very close eye on her behavior around your animals. I wouldn't leave her alone with them for a while until you know what she will do. I am very very sorry and I don't think there will be an easy fix. But personally, I don't think that your dog is ruined as an LGD, if you can keep her home I would give her a chance. 

Unfortunately you will have the deal with the calf owner and pray that he doesn't get nasty about it and call your animal control. They might make you get rid of the dog.


----------



## woodsie (Feb 21, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> My heart aches for you.
> 
> Unfortunately LGDs are know for being escape artists. If you re-home these and start over you will quite likely have the same escape problem. I put up an electic fence that HURTS and they learned about it as pups, and I mean little guys, 8 weeks old. They are now over 2 years and they don't even touch the fence. My boy won't even go through a gate that is near the hot wire. The wire is at the top of the fence and about 12-15 inches off the ground. My fences are 4' high.
> 
> ...


Thanks, you pretty much described to a tee what I have been thinking. I did offer to pay for the calf, but the rancher was gracious, refused but made it clear that if the dogs were up there again that they wouldn't be coming home alive....fair enough, I'd do the same and I don't blame him for saying so in the least. 

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that she didn't actually kill the calf....the coyotes in the area have been very aggressive recently, all the dogs in the area have been going nuts over them encroaching into the fields...plus the eagles that were aggressively trying to get at the carcass, probably because they were eating at it before she showed up...but unfortunately I'll never be certain and it is a horrible thing not to trust your dog. I'll talk to the lead ranch hand there tonight and have a heart to heart...and see if they have been losing other calfs to coyotes/predators, because I would honestly put her down if she was indeed a livestock killer....as much as that would break my heart (we've had her since she was a pup). I wouldn't want to rehome a dog that was just going to cause someone else this hardache. 

This picture is her and is so accurate of who she is...always licking and lovin on the lambs and sheep. I can't fathom that she would ever hurt a helpless animal. 







For now they will be chained to their shelter in the hotwired 5' tall sheep pen....the chain will be just long enough for her to touch the hotwire and learn to stay away. I'll keep a close watch on with the sheep although she is acting totally normal with them so far.


----------



## BrownSheep (Feb 21, 2013)

I am sorry this isn't working out for you.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 21, 2013)

Cute pictures; she doesn't look like a killer.

 I wouldn't give up on her yet. But I understand the fencing issue and the time and money. I have about 4 acres I would love to fence for the goats. Have the supplies, just don't have the time. Plus not relishing Poison Oak. 

BTW, my female climbed out of a 6 foot high chain link kennel. She knew there was no hotwire on it. They are smart smart dogs.


----------



## BrownSheep (Feb 21, 2013)

Also, like the others have said, just because she ate it doesn't mean she killed it. My dogs aren't killers but are constantly bring home dead things. If they find it dead they'll eat it.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 21, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

> For now they will be chained to their shelter in the hotwired 5' tall sheep pen....the chain will be just long enough for her to touch the hotwire and learn to stay away. I'll keep a close watch on with the sheep although she is acting totally normal with them so far.


How will do their job if they are chained in a pen? I understand the reasons, but just wondering if this is a temporary setup?


----------



## treeclimber233 (Feb 22, 2013)

My GP ate a baby goat when he was 6 months old (or so).  My doe had twins and I could tell the one baby was born dead.  It was still laying in a puddle of water (where the sack broke) and was all twisted.  The mother was still trying to get it up so I left it there while I ran to the store.  When I came back the  baby was gone and Drift was carrying the head around in his mouth.  Other than him wanting to play with the babies since then he has never hurt any of them.  And other than the dead chicken I found in the pen the other morning he has never hurt any of the chickens with him either.  Sometimes when I go to the barn he runs thru the flock sending them scattering (screaming and flapping) and all he does is stop to see what all the comotion is about.  I don't think he killed the chicken I found.  I think something else got it and he chased it off. He did not eat the chicken which surprised me.  Good to know he is supposed to "clean up". I have a doe due now with nowhere to put her so I hope everything goes alright.  He is 2 now but his big feet look pretty dangerous to me.  They are larger than the babies heads!!!!!


----------



## ylevitin (Feb 24, 2013)

Sometimes you need to realize that not every dog of LGD breed is suited to do LGD work.
Good LGD dog has instincts that make them invaluable in a farm environment - they develop bond with their charges and property, they recognize their territory and stay within boundaries, they would never chase or hurt an animal they are in charge of (especially baby animal). If you have to "train" your dog to do these things - you don't have an LGD.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 24, 2013)

ylevitin said:
			
		

> Sometimes you need to realize that not every dog of LGD breed is suited to do LGD work.
> Good LGD dog has instincts that make them invaluable in a farm environment - they develop bond with their charges and property, they recognize their territory and stay within boundaries, they would never chase or hurt an animal they are in charge of (especially baby animal). If you have to "train" your dog to do these things - you don't have an LGD.


Unfortunately many many many LGDs won't stay in a fenced pasture if they can get over the fence. Mine respect my hot wire, but I am sure that that is all that keeps them in. I don't agree that a fence issue makes a dog a poor LGD.


----------



## EllieMay (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm so sorry for the issues you are having.
I agree with the others about the necessity of good fencing.
So far we've spent about $10k on fencing and cross fencing.
We use the woven wire field fencing.

I just had an incident last night.

I have three LGD's and had to remove my intact male from the pasture because I noticed my female is coming into heat.
I put my male in the pasture near my house and the female along with a neutered male are up at the large barn.
My goal was to keep them as far apart as possible.
Well, during the night the two dogs up at the barn really, really wanted to be with their buddy here at the house, so they dug underneath four pastures to get down here.
I kept hearing my male howling throughout the night and when I looked out the window to check on him, he seemed fine, so I went back to bed.
This morning at 5am I got up to check on him since he was still howling. That's when I noticed my other two dogs leisurely strolling down the driveway and out to the street.
I called them and they came running to me and I figured I'd put them in another pasture; that's when I noticed the huge hole they had dug under the fence. 
Fortunately, I had one more pasture way behind the barn that I could keep them in for today.

Our fence is new and the fence guys are still here finishing up.
Basically the fence is completed with all the gates and they are just finishing up the installation of the electric wire along the bottom (to prevent digging).
Now I wish they would HURRY!  

I was so furious that my dogs got out, and then I read your post about your dog and the dead calf.
My neighbor has a bunch of cows that are calving and I would be mortified if one of my dogs did anything to his calves.

The only advice I could give you for your dogs is GOOD FENCING with a hot wire along the bottom to deter digging.


----------



## woodsie (Feb 25, 2013)

EllieMay said:
			
		

> I'm so sorry for the issues you are having.
> I agree with the others about the necessity of good fencing.
> So far we've spent about $10k on fencing and cross fencing.
> We use the woven wire field fencing.
> ...


Yup, they are climbers AND diggers!!! So over the past week we have really improved our fencing and installed hotwire on the top and bottom. I had my female (the digger) chained at night until we installed the bottom hot wire which my husband finished up yesterday. I can't see how they can get out now....they are not too excited about having their territory greatly reduced and getting major zapps when they try to get at the  "threat" but they are SAFE!!! and now mommy can sleep at night!  The other night I was out at 3:30am making sure everyone was still in the pen. I am really hoping to get more pasture fenced this spring but the dogs are always going to stay with the sheet and goats in the hotwired pens...I just can't chance it. I can't fault the dogs for my poor fencing situation...they were just good for so long that I was lulled into complacency. We are happy to have them safe at home, especially during coyotoe breeding season.

Oh, and after talking with many LGD people, reading and most importantly watching my dogs I am fully convinced that they did not kill the calf. They are acting COMPLETELY normal with my goats, sheep and chickens - indifferent to them or licking at their face and butts. There has been zero aggression from them, and even are very patient with the sheep that keep trying to steal their food (I am not feeding them on top of the run in shelters). I can't possibly see how they could kill a calf when all their typical LGD qualities are intact.

Here are some pics of the rascals.






[/url]


----------



## woodsie (Feb 26, 2013)

Well I am falling in love with the dogs again. Everyone is perking up and seems be adjusting to their new living arrangments. They get so excited to see me and actually want to "play", Winnie (female) will actually fetch a stick...well kinda as much as a Pyr will fetch a stick. She runs and grabs it and then tears around the pen (my kids taught her this game), Sampson is much too dignified for such foolishness though. He does enjoy a good belly rub though. 

It is such a relief to have them safe and actually have enjoyment and appreciation for them again, instead of a source of frustration. Unfortunately, I think my new perfume is "eau d' big hairy outside dog", with all the doggie hugs I permanently smell like them too.


----------



## Southern by choice (Feb 26, 2013)

can't even tell you how happy I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## WhiteMountainsRanch (Feb 26, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I think my new perfume is "eau d' big hairy outside dog", with all the doggie hugs I permanently smell like them too.


----------



## woodsie (Feb 26, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> can't even tell you how happy I am!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THANKS SOOOO MUCH FOR YOUR HELP AND REASSURANCE! I'll send you that email I promised, just haven't drawn up a map yet... I think my dad might have a topographical one that I can scan.


----------

