# Changing bottle babies milk replacer (should I?)



## animaniac (Sep 13, 2011)

Hello!

I have been lurking on BYH forum for awhile.  The amount of information is amazing!  I need advice re my 6 week old bottle babies.  When they came home with me 3 weeks ago they were on Manna Pro Kid Replacer.  They had only been on it for a couple days before they came home with me.  They had diarrhea- which I thought was due to the change of diet and getting vaccinated before coming home.  I ran out of the Manna Pro and couldn't find it, so I started them on Land o Lakes.  I also had them tested for cocci (positive) around the same time.  Before having them tested I ordered a medicated milk replacer (Sav a Kid DX).  Well the medicated came today, I still have a few days left of the Land o Lakes- I am not sure if I should use the medicated replacer or if I should stick with the Land o Lakes.  They no longer have the scours, and have a few days left of their perscription.  

If you were able to follow that- what are your thoughts?  I appreciate your input!


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 13, 2011)

Personally, I would stick with the Land O Lakes.  Any of the Save A Kid milk replacer that we have dealt with, has had mites crawling through it. 

If your kids ever require medicating, just give them the medication.  Medicated feed is hard to know exactly how much medication they are getting per feeding... one feeding may be under medicating, the next you could be over medicating. Better to keep feed and medicating seperate, in my opinion, so you can KNOW that they are getting the proper dosage.


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## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

I agree. Medicated milk replacers kept in a warehouse exposed to heat and humidity can render them virtually useless also.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 14, 2011)

I thought milk replacers gave baby goats the scoots & you were supposed to use whole cow's milk with a touch of buttermilk & polyvisol if necessary??


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## Roll farms (Sep 14, 2011)

Well, I'm not a fan of switching milk, be it replacer or cow's milk, mid-stream when feeding kids.  Sudden changes are bad.  Also not a fan of using meds in feed, as previously stated by others.

Another thing to keep in mind - DX sounds like it has Deccox in it, which won't KILL cocci, it just prevents it from developing, and then only IF they get enough of the medication at ea. feeding.  So if they still have coccidiosis, the Deccox won't do much to help the situation.  

You said they're on a prescription, I'm assuming the vet is giving them something to 'cure / kill' the coccidia?  
I would have a fecal ran before I did anything to verify that the meds the vet gave worked / are working to get rid of the cocci load they have.

Me, I would just gradually switch them over to whole cow milk....but I also understand that you've spent money on this product, and probably can't send it back....so you feel compelled to use it.  
If you really want to use the Sav A Kid, after having a fecal ran to make sure they're clear, I would gradually start mixing it in w/ the LOL until you have them switched over that way.  
1st time, use 75% - LOL, 25% SAK, do that for 2-3 feedings and see how they do...then go 50-50 for a couple and watch for a reaction, etc.  

I always give them a bit of probiotic to help ward off any upset the change may cause.

If they get a clean fecal, and still scour, I'd blame the replacer and either go back to LOL or switch to whole milk - but again, do it gradually.

I would definitely have a fecal ran again 2-3 wks after their medicine from the vet stopped, even if they're 'clean' this time...to verify they still are.

FYI - I've never added buttermilk or anything else to whole cows milk, I just feed it 'straight'.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 14, 2011)

Same here as far as the cow's milk is concerned- when we didn't have does in milk we fed whole cow's milk without buttermilk, condensed milk, yogurt, etc. added.    We did add polyvisol to their bottles occasionally.  Now that we always have does in milk when we have bottle babies we feed straight goat's milk with nothing added.  Never had an issue with scouring.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 14, 2011)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> I thought milk replacers gave baby goats the scoots & you were supposed to use whole cow's milk with a touch of buttermilk & polyvisol if necessary??


Milk replacer is not always a bad thing.  I use it and never have issues with scouring and my kids grow very well on it.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 14, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> that's*satyrical said:
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Ditto... and If you have worked hard to maintain a Johnes free herd, you don't want to use cow's milk, since that is where Johnes disease in goats came from.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 14, 2011)

wow so much conflicting info. what's a goat owner to do?? lol.


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## Roll farms (Sep 14, 2011)

If you get a kid who's on replacer, and does fine on it, I always suggest you keep it on THAT particular replacer, don't go changing it.  Constantly changing their diet can be harder on them than even the cheapest replacer.  So if you go to buy whatever you're using...and they are out...yes, it DOES matter....go to the next place and get the same thing.

I prefer to use cow's milk when I don't have enough goat milk to go around (vitamin D from the store, that's been pastuerized - which reduces the likelihood of contracting diseases, and it's homogenized, which makes it easier to digest), but I'm not going to beat up on those who don't...  

I will suggest, if someone posts that they've got a bottle baby who is scouring, that they try switching it over to whole milk....a lot of times, that alone is proven to 'fix' what ailed them.

One thing to remember - what works for one won't work for all, and you may have to modify what 'everyone' else says to get it to work for you.

My advice comes from 10+ yrs of rearing 50 or so kids a year.  Mostly on pasteurized goat milk, but I use cow milk when I don't have enough to go around.
I did a cost study on it 3 yrs ago (worthless now, the prices for everything have gone up) and if you buy the milk on sale / stock up / freeze ahead, it is cheaper than ANY of the good replacers.  Regardless on where you stand on it, cheap replacers are a bad idea - soy based, usually and THAT is where the problems tend to start.

This is my BUSINESS, not just a hobby, so believe me, I have researched the heck out of it, and I do what I have found to be best for the kids AND our bottom line.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 14, 2011)

Each person really has to decide what's best for them since there are so many factors that can affect decisions.  For me, feeding whole milk would not be feasible.  It's too expensive (over $4/gal here) and I don't have the storage to keep much more than 1 gallon in the fridge, and I don't have the freezer space to keep many gallons there. I don't have or don't want to spend the time to run to the store every few days to get more milk.  Replacer works for me because it doesn't require refrigeration, though if I have leftovers at the end of bottle feeding season I do freeze it until the next year.  I can mix up a new batch at every feeding so it's always fresh and I don't have to heat or reheat bottles, I just use hot water. 

I truly feel the problems with replacer are most likely caused by improper mixing ratios, cheap soy based replacers, or something else entirely.  That's just my opinion though.    A very large percentage of the dairy cattle industry raises their calves on replacers, as does much of the dairy goat industry.  They (the good replacer companies) have to be doing something right.

This isn't meant to be a debate on what to feed, I'm just offering another opinion.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 14, 2011)

Please don't get me wrong, I am not dissing those who use whole cow's milk for their bottle babies... I am just stating why we choose not to. Our farm hadn't know of Johnes disease until we were asked if we tested for it by a vet. We told them no, and then went home and googled what it is and how it started in goats. I am just sharing what I learned from several sources.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/johne'sdisease.html (this particular site does not mention the occurance in goats as stemming for usage of cows milk, but it most informational as to susceptability, testing, and signs/symptoms.
I completely agree that it is up to the individual farm to decide what is best for their animals, be the topic: all natural, organic, feed, medicine, chemical vs herbal, housing, etc.


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## animaniac (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks to you all for your replies!  I am going to see if I can return the Sav a Kid and continue with the LoL since they are doing well on it.  If I can't return it maybe I will sell it on craigslist.  I really appreciate the advice re medicated feed- I will avoid it for sure in the future.  In the future if I do have bottle babies, I may go with whole milk from the store as it is so accessible.  There is so much conflicting advice out there, but it is nice to get some been-there/done-that advice from you all.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 14, 2011)

I'd like to see any reference to even a remote possibility that Jonhe's is transmissible through pasteurized grocery store milk.  Unpasteurized cow's milk aside, which of course you'd never find in the grocery store anyway.  That's a pretty serious implication...


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 14, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I'd like to see any reference to even a remote possibility that Jonhe's is transmissible through pasteurized grocery store milk.  Unpasteurized cow's milk aside, which of course you'd never find in the grocery store anyway.  That's a pretty serious implication...


You would have seen that reference in at the link I posted, which again, is just one of many pages talking about the disease and though very informative, does not go into how it got presented in goats. 
 "*This bacterium is very hardy and heat resistant*. However, pasteurization can kill most (if not all) of the organisms, depending upon the concentration of the bacterium in the milk, and is a *useful technique for reducing ( but not eliminating entirely )* the number of organisms the kids receive."


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 14, 2011)

Freakin' pesky bacteria. You die when we're trying to kill you, darn it!!!


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## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

People don't test for Johne's in the U.S. or something?


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## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I'd like to see any reference to even a remote possibility that Jonhe's is transmissible through pasteurized grocery store milk.  Unpasteurized cow's milk aside, which of course you'd never find in the grocery store anyway.  That's a pretty serious implication...


You do find unpasteurized in many states off the farm and in the stores in others.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 14, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> People don't test for Johne's in the U.S. or something?


We do. And now we make sure that the sire and dam of any kid we are looking at has tested negative for Johnes, CL, & CAE. We don't want to chance any of them in our herd.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 14, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
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Yup


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## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

I guess its something I took for granted that all dairy animals are tested as a matter of course. I never worry about using cows milk from the tanks for goats because everyone is tested.


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## mkeawsh (Feb 28, 2012)

kstaven said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
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Wow, seriously?  I knew you could buy unpasteurized milk directly from a farmer but I haven't never seen it available in any stores around here.  I thought it was the law that it has to be pasteurized what you bought in the stores.


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## mama24 (Feb 29, 2012)

It depends on the state. You can buy unpasteurized milk right in the grocery store in CA and PA.


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## hannahbanana3 (Feb 29, 2012)

We use Dumor Goat Kid Replacer for our baby Pygmys and they got diahrea from being switched over from milk to replacer but if you give them Pepto Bismol and it binds them up and now their all fine. good luck


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