# some questions about LGD and our current dogs..



## mtocih (May 14, 2013)

I am new to the herding boards as I am just starting.  We have a couple dogs we keep outside, due to one being "rescued" at the ripe age of 9 and liking to mark all his territory, as he spent his life before that outside.  At this point he (st Bernard mixed with a golden lab) named Jack and my 8 year old German Shepherd, named Libby are outside.  Inside we have a German Shepherd puppy.  I have not read that GSD are good for living with the herd or guarding the herd.  I have not read of them being a good breed...I was wondering your experience with this?  We let Libby into the pen area yesterday with both my husband and I, because she was smelling around and curious.  This was all very supervised and went well.  We are extending the pen area and due to only having 4 acres for hay, and 4 for our home, barns and rotational pastures, were not planning to put any dogs in with the goats ever unsupervised.  I do know that she is a good herder, because at one point our son let out our chickens on accident, and Libby kept them all in the backyard, not letting them go far.   Did not loose one.  (gate froze open and son, did not think to tell me, next morning snow melted and the chickens were loose)  Libby is also good at barking and letting us know when there are coyotes in the woods next door, and when the wolf-hybrids from the neighbor behind us break out of their fence. (yes they are raising wolves back there with donkeys, llamas, horses, cows, chickens all around)  And last year when we had only the one 4-h wether Libby laid on the other side of the fence with the wether pushed up next to he from his side.  She seems very motherly, but I am not sure if I want her in the larger pens with them or just walking around the pens from the outside?  What would you do?

Are German Shepherds normally good with goats?  
And as for training, how is the best to go about this?  I have the extra curious puppy also that I want to be able to wander in with the goats with us, but am being cautious with him.  He already saw the Rooster up close and personal.  Rooster won..  :/  But it was thru a fence..and I made the puppy sit and not go near it, till all was calm.  I know it is a learning curve and I am reading all I can on raising the goats.  Just never thought to train the dogs to protect.  

We are also looking at and thinking of getting a donkey. We have been gifted a 19year old horse, and she hasn't been around goats so will have her own pen till we know how she does.  A lot of this is happening very fast, and I am working hard to make sure all the best decisions are made when it comes to this.  If I have the dogs, and the donkey, and then electric fencing, will that be enough protection?  (yes I worry about the wolf hybrids, they only have gotten loose 2x and that was last year late summer, early fall.  We have spoken to the DNR, and know our rights with them, but of course would prefer to not have to enact them, so if I have deterrents that keep them from wanting to come this way, I would feel better)  

I am going to keep searching thru the boards for answers and more thoughts...and keep reading all I can.  But thank you for thoughts or if you think of something I should be thinking of feel free to mention it.


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## woodsie (May 14, 2013)

My neighbour is a goat herder and has 400+ goats and his top dog is a German Shepard. He also has Pyrs for LGD that really protect and live with the herd but his German Shep is his herder dog and guarder of the camp/farm. The Pyrs are patrollers and nannies/lamb protectors. He loves both breeds but they definitely have different strengths and you have to play to their strengths...you could never leave a GS in the field without people contact and expect them to be a LGD, but they can be fine around goats.

If you are really concerned about protection get a LGD (or better yet 2) and leave them in the pen with the livestock...and get your GS to guard the area outside the pen - a winning combination. Can't speak to guard donkey but maybe someone else can help you out.

You'll love LGD's they are amazing creatures with livestock and pretty hard to beat....my one Pyr has adopted an orphan lamb and it is amazing to watch! Nevermind we have no issues with predators with them on the property and we have large packs of coyotes feeding off the ranch calves right next door to us.


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## Southern by choice (May 14, 2013)

mtocih

Lots of great questions you have!

First let me explain a little about Livestock Guardians.

*Livestock Guardians* are generally Livestock Guardian Dogs, Donkeys, and Llamas 

for the purpose of the discussion I would like to focus on the Livestock Guardian Dog

*Livestock Guardian Dogs* are a very distinct group of dogs generally from the "working Group" LGD's (for short) are also broken down into distinct breeds of dogs that were bred for generations specifically for livestock guardians. In other words there are many working breeds but not all working breeds are Livestock guardian breeds. The most common LGD's in the states are Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd Dog, Kuvasz, Maremma, Kommondorok, Kangal, there are other rare breeds too.  So even though a Doberman or Rottie is a working dog IT IS NOT a LGD. 
LGD's have low prey drive and are focused on the livestock, living with them full time, generally moving slowly around them very laid back yet extremely protective and will kill a predator that threatens the flock. They are highly intelligent, very hard headed, regard their decisions as superior to any human instruction given. These breeds are very large to Giant. They have extreme power and size to be able to overcome larger predators many of these breeds are 100- 160 lbs and many are 30" tall

*Herding dogs* are very distinct breeds that are bred and suited for herding. Herding breeds have very high prey drive with an extreme "chase" mentality. Herding breeds are not guardians. These breeds are very focused on their humans command and will somewhat seek to please their masters. HIGHLY TRAINABLE DOGS! HErding breeds are meant to move a herd or flock, lots of running and chasing to simplify things. They do not guard. The majority of the herding breeds are much smaller and do not quite have the power to take doen a wolf, bobcat, cougar, or coyote. They may have the heart but lack physical size.

My family has been in German Shepherd dogs for 3 generations. I am very passionate about them! The GSD is rarely used for herding although they have an incredible instinct to do so. Many of the GSD's today are used for everything but herding. My personal opinion is they should be in the working group and removed from the herding group. Many today are used for seeing eye dogs, search and rescue, police, personal protection, therapy , bomb and drug sniffing, etc... they are one of the most versatile breeds of dog and can generally be trained for ANYTHING. However they are not a Livestock Guardian.

I share this because I also have LGD's . My older GSD now deceased, actually could stay in with anything, chickens goats it didn't matter she never chased and only "moved" an animal when she felt it was threatened. Never did she chase or kill any of our animals. She did have extreme prey drive. shutzhund 3 background.. with problems in holding. Within the German Shepherd world you have the AKC "confirmation" dogs- ( americanized junk IMO) then you have actual rare herding stock and bred GSD's and the actual working GSd that are from schutzhund stock( shutzhund is 3 phases of obedience, tracking, personal protection- bitework) 

The kind of GSD you have will make big difference. The hardness of a GSD really determines its drive. You can train your dogs to not chase the goats or kill the chickens. They are highly trainable. But in truth, they are not Guardians, the shepherd always wants to bond and be with its master- opposite of a LGD. Your older Gsd shows loyalty and intelligence and an understanding of what is important to you. Pups of course take awhile!  The prey drive and the endurance of a good shepherd takes about 3 years to calm down. Although they are well trained by 6-8 months.

I am breaking this down so there is a better understanding of what to expect.

A gsd will be a great gaurdian of family and property  yes, but for livestock, protection from wolves etc a gsd is not adequate. 

I also commend you on your wise choice of the GSD  

*I adore my Gsd's but for our herds- nope we entrust those to our 3 great Pyrenees and Anatolian shepherd*.

I have a picture somewhere on here of my LGD's as *pups* with my then 1 year old GSd you can see the sheer size and power difference. 

here is a pic... I believe the anatolian was 7 months old?


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## mtocih (May 14, 2013)

Thank you so much for your information!  It really just confirms what I was thinking about leaving her alone in a pen with them.  We used to also own Libby's half brother, he was a big baby, unless you were a cat, and then he had a huge prey drive.  Also took out a couple chickens because they jumped on my sons back at feeding time. So he was never allowed around the others.  He was a special GSD, as he was diagnosed with hip dysplacia at 6 months, and lived to 8 years with special care.  Libby dosent have his prey drive.  She is much more motherly, but I wasn't sure about the reliability of the breed. I know each dog is different, but there are some natural instincts in there.  And she does know all the farm animals are high priority to our family. So she protects, but will do so from the outside of the fence.  What I do from here LGD wise will have to be a discussion with my husband. He really wants a donkey.  I just worry with those wolves back there that we need to find something a bit more able to protect.   

Thank you for reaffirming my thoughts.


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