# So upset - long story / pics - new pics / question pg. 4



## Roll farms (Sep 16, 2011)

I don't even know where to start...I'm going to try to make this make sense to newer members who don't know the backstory (and to those who've forgotten the details).

2008 - I sold Mandy and Hannah to a friend, Rick.  Mandy is 75% Boer, Hannah is her daughter, sired by a Nubian.

Mandy - pictured in 2009







Hannah - pictured in 2010






They came back in 2009 to be bred, the breeding fee was a kid back from one of them...then the following spring Hannah gave birth to Peyton, my spotted doe.  She was the kid I chose as my fee.  

They came back again in 2010 for breeding, again the 'fee' was a kid back.  (I noticed then they looked a bit rough, and spoke to Rick about getting them some better mineral and feed.)

When we went to pick up our kid after Mandy kidded this spring, (Austin - a black doe I've posted pics of this year) and I mentioned again that Mandy and Hannah didn't look so good...Rick confessed that he was overwhelmed - his 2 yr old daughter was in and out of the hospital (she has a rare disease and it's taking several trips to a children's hospital to get her treatment(s) lined up - his wife was pregnant, and he was having some health problems.  He asked if I knew anyone who'd consider taking them.

We came home and I called a guy I was buying hay from to see if he'd be interested, Josh.  Josh had bought a few goats from us and sold us a batch of really nice hay.  
He picked them up from Josh for $150.00 and I assumed they were doing fine.  
We bought another batch of hay from him that we found out later was over a year old and not from the farm we were told it was from originally.  We had some goats get pretty bad looking on that hay, and I wasn't a happy camper.

About 6 wks ago - late July -Josh calls me in a panic because Mandy had just kidded, her udder didn't fill, and he had sold his house and had no supplies (all packed away) or milk and was staying w/ a family friend - would I take Mandy's twins and bottle raise them for him.  

I did the math...Mandy had JUST had Austin back in January.  Here 6 mos. later she's given birth again.  He explained that all of his goats were being kept as his dads, and all running together...bucks and does.

I was supposed to get to keep the doeling, and he'd get the buckling back.  After the little doeling died I called and asked him to come and get the buckling, and last week he showed up to get him.  
He mentioned he was selling most of his goats.  I asked if he still had Mandy and Hannah.  He says yes.  He said he'd sell them to me for $100.00, and give me a Boer doe to make up for the little doeling who'd died.

Tonight he delivered them. 

This is the boer doe, "Freckles" - a bit thin, but her eyelids look good and she acts pretty hearty.  






This is Hannah.  Very thin, it's hard to see in the pics, but she is.











And my poor, sweet Mandy....
















Granted, kidding 2x in 6.5 mos would take a doe down, but this is awful.  Sickening.  Pathetic.  

I'm just sick over it.  I promised Rick that Josh would give them a good home - and obviously he didn't.

He says his father has been feeding them hay daily, but no grain.  He blames their condition on the fact that Mandy and Hannah don't get aggressive at feeding time.
Hanna's eyelids are medium pink, but Mandys are gray, very pale.  She also doesn't act like herself, very skittish and jumpy.

All 3 of them have been running w/ an Oberhasli buck, so as soon as Mandy looks better, they'll be getting luted in case they're pregnant.  I want all 3 in better shape before trying to carry babies.


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## manybirds (Sep 16, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I don't even know where to start...I'm going to try to make this make sense to newer members who don't know the backstory (and to those who've forgotten the details).
> 
> 2008 - I sold Mandy and Hannah to a friend, Rick.  Mandy is 75% Boer, Hannah is her daughter, sired by a Nubian.
> 
> ...


I never got why people keep unhealthy unhappy animals. whats the fun in that?


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## elevan (Sep 16, 2011)

Wow...I really don't know what to say that wouldn't get me into trouble for saying it out loud.


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## terrilhb (Sep 16, 2011)

Oh Rolls I am so sorry. Those are beautiful goats. What a monster he is. At least they have you to get them back into shape. I know you can do it. Those pictures make me want to cry.  Good luck and please keep us posted as how they are doing. Your Hannah looks just like my doe Sara except for the ears. My does ears are solid black. I also can not believe he let her get pregnant that soon.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 16, 2011)

Poor girls  Hope you can get them back into shape quickly. Maybe they are sick & he didn't know how to treat them??


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## kstaven (Sep 16, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Wow...I really don't know what to say that wouldn't get me into trouble for saying it out loud.


x 10,000


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## ksalvagno (Sep 16, 2011)

OMG, I can't believe how bad they look. Sounds like Josh is someone not to deal with anymore including hay. Obviously doesn't care. I'm so sorry. I hope you can get Mandy back to her original state.


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## Roll farms (Sep 17, 2011)

I just feel so awful that Mandy got to this point.  What if I hadn't asked if he still had her?  I seriously think she was less than a week from death.  
And you can feel every rib on Hannah.  

Also, Mandy has a nasty case of mastitis.  I'm betting when she had Austin / Rick sold her to Josh, he didn't bother to milk her at all (and she was one of my 'milking boers', so needed it) - just let her udder go...and that is why she had no milk for the twins.

Treating her udder w/ Tomorrow as soon as I get her a bit stronger.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 17, 2011)

Don't understand people anymore.  Truly glad they are back in your capable, compassionate hands.  Hoping they all bounce back real soon.


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## RareBreedFancier (Sep 17, 2011)

For you and those girls. Thank goodness you got them back! So sad the condition they are in.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 17, 2011)

If anybody can turn them back into fat happy goats you can.  Just tell the girls they need to channel some of that Levi energy for a while.


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## freemotion (Sep 17, 2011)

I'd missed that he'd sold you year old hay....this is not someone who is honest or ethical or gives a hoot about the health and welfare of animals.  Someone who deals in hay has goats that are thin?  What's up with that?  Disgusting. 

Glad you got them back.  Now they have a chance.


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## DonnaBelle (Sep 17, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


x 100,000

DonnaBelle


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## 77Herford (Sep 17, 2011)

Wow, I'm shocked at their condition but happy their back with you instead of the other option.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 17, 2011)

They all look rough and mineral deficient, but Mandy's condition is appalling.    Thank goodness you were able to get them back and I hope they respond quickly to your excellent care.


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## Goatherd (Sep 17, 2011)

Glad to hear they're back with you.  Coincidence?  I think not.


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## Year of the Rooster (Sep 17, 2011)

Mandy looks horrible!  Good thing you got them back now.


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## jodief100 (Sep 17, 2011)

I am sorry they were not taken care of.  Very glad you got them back.  I am sure they are happy to be home.  

I hope this was due to ignorance.


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## chels24 (Sep 17, 2011)

They do look bad, but they are in good hands now. I've seen pictures of your goats and I have no doubt that in a couple months they will be unrecognizable.


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## doxiemoxie (Sep 17, 2011)

Makes me want to cry!  However, I am very glad that they are back in your care.  And I totally agree with luting them,  they are soooo skinny, the poor dears.  Please keep us posted on how they are doing.

And everyone, remember it doesn't take much to get overwhelmed.  Neglecting your animals is a slippery slope.  Make a plan now for what you will do if your life circumstances change so your animals don't end up in this situation.


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## nmred (Sep 17, 2011)

doxiemoxie said:
			
		

> And everyone, remember it doesn't take much to get overwhelmed.  Neglecting your animals is a slippery slope.  Make a plan now for what you will do if your life circumstances change so your animals don't end up in this situation.


Great advice!  I would hate for my girls to end up in a situation like this.

Good job, Roll!


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## terrilhb (Sep 17, 2011)

What is Luting?


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## elevan (Sep 17, 2011)

terrilhb said:
			
		

> What is Luting?


To lute is to give Lutalyse - a hormone that will abort the pregnancy.

Lute is also used to cycle the doe for heat or to induce labor.


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## mydakota (Sep 17, 2011)

I do volunteer work in equine rescue.  Sadly, this kind of thing is just all too common.  I wish I could say I am surprised that a hay dealer would have skinny animals, but I am not.  I guess I am jaded, but I have seen this kind of thing altogether too often before. I am so glad they are back with you, and wish you all the luck in the world in their rehab.  I bet they are glad to be home.


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## Roll farms (Sep 17, 2011)

Even though I know we can't, dh and I have both said something to the effect of, "I just want to stand there w/ a feed bucket in front of them."

I'm letting them have all the hay they want, and limited amounts of grain (upping the amount a bit at ea. feeding).  Since they haven't had grain in months (probably since Josh bought them) I don't want to make them sick on too much, too soon.

I just hate how skittish and unfriendly Mandy is now.  She was a LOVE.  

She looks 40 yrs old...she's 4!

You guys have *no* idea how many good deals I've given this twerp over the years...nice goats for cheap trying to help him get started, free meds / wormers, advice, etc.  He commented yesterday that "Once I get settled I'll want to buy some more."  I made noncomittal noises b/c we were still unloading them at the time, but....

FAT CHANCE.


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## Roll farms (Sep 17, 2011)

Also, have any of you ever luted a preggo doe?  The vet told me to give them lute and Dex both.  I've used Lut only for inducing labor 2x.
I've never used Dex.
I can look it up, but I'd like some personal experience / advice, if any of you have any, re: dosages, things to look out for, etc.
Thanks....


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## elevan (Sep 17, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Also, have any of you ever luted a preggo doe?  The vet told me to give them lute and Dex both.  I've used Lut only for inducing labor 2x.
> I've never used Dex.
> I can look it up, but I'd like some personal experience / advice, if any of you have any, re: dosages, things to look out for, etc.
> Thanks....


I've only luted a prematurely bred doe (unsure if she took - but taking no chances).  The dose the vet gave me was:  2ml IM at least 7 days post exposure - repeat in 3 weeks

I wish I could help more.


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## Roll farms (Sep 17, 2011)

Well, what I'm reading has me sort of scared.  

Retained placentas, uterine infections, complications, problems breeding later - I'm wondering if maybe the cure isn't worse than the sickness, in this case.  I don't think Mandy's body would have let her get preggo (too weak to cycle) and the other two, with good nutrition, may do fine....and may not even be bred.

I don't want to abort them just b/c they're having ob crosses, and I am just not sure that using lut / dex would be 'good' for any of them in a weakened state.

UGH!


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## kstaven (Sep 17, 2011)

Things like this are never an easy decision and realistically you are the best judge of their overall condition and the best one to weigh the risks of potentially stressing them more in the immediate.


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## elevan (Sep 17, 2011)

How long would it take to get a blood test done to check if she's even pregnant?


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## Roll farms (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm going to talk it over w/ the vet when I see him Monday....when I asked for the stuff (lut / dex) I knew they were coming but hadn't yet seen how awful they looked....


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## ksalvagno (Sep 18, 2011)

My experience is with alpacas and I do use Estrumate. With the alpacas, they got 1cc, 3 times in a 24 hour period. I have to admit that I don't remember the times since it was about 4 years ago. We were timing it so it would coincide with the vet appointment as it was a scheduled C section. Also, I was involved in a llama rescue several years ago and they aborted several older females with Estrumate. For all of them, it went fine and there were no retained placentas or infections. If I recall correctly, a shot was given twice a day for 2 days but I could find out for sure. The alpacas that I have "aborted" were at the end of their pregnancy and there were problems and we needed to get the cria out. Estrumate was the only thing given.

I have Estrumate and have used it on the goats but only for newly pregnant (like 2 weeks). For the Nigerians, it is dosed at 1/2cc.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do. You certainly have a good reason to abort these pregnancies, especially for Mandy. You could always have an ultrasound or xray done or have blood drawn and send to BioPryn before you do anything. Even the blood test results you could get back pretty quickly.


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## currycomb (Sep 18, 2011)

sorry about your goats, no excuse for that. that said, my only experience is with luting mares to bring into heat. after doing a few on vets recommendation, i quit doing it. did not like the intense sweating and the mares just were miserable. i think they were having extreme "hot flashes", not fun i can tell you. if mandy is not too far along in the pregnancy, i would think you could get her up to snuf in time, and then pull the kids and bottle raise to take that strain off of her. guess the best thing to do would be the blood test to see if you have pregnant goats, then make the decision. (i have used alfalfa cubes and beet pulp, soaked for several hours in warm water. it makes a slop, but boy do the goats love it, and gain weight and shine, and without grain and the upsets it can cause. also might use rice bran. i have not with goats, but did with horses, made a thin horse bulk up pretty fast)


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 18, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'm going to talk it over w/ the vet when I see him Monday....when I asked for the stuff (lut / dex) I knew they were coming but hadn't yet seen how awful they looked....


I would have to agree to chat with the vet before aborting them. I never had to abort...but I too have read some horror stories and was not thrilled about the thought of ever having to do that.   Goats have an amazing way of bouncing back quickly from poor nutrition.  I think they may suprise you...really.  They are pretty hardy creatures as you know.  I would probally hold off of using the lut / dex.  But thats just my opinion.  I would do the old stand bys...vitamin B, good grain, good quality hay and loose minerals. I always add goat balancer to the grain too...it helps alot when they need the extra nutrition.  I personally would wait and see how their condition changes over the next few weeks. But thats me..you have a much better idea of what their condition is.  Its hard to tell in pics. 

Im sorry this happened to you..and especially to them.  It make me mad that people can do this.  I think he should just keep balen hay and stay away from raisin goats...he's obviously not good at it.

I had a dairy goat get pregnant 6 mos after she delivered...it was obviously a fence jump...and I learned my fencing lesson then...she did great...but she was in great condition...which made a world of differance.  I do know of some farmers that will breed a couple times a year.  Personally...I like to wait and give them time...but its not impossible or a mandatory death sentence.

Good luck..you have alot to consider and some decisions to make. Hope it works out great for your girls..Im thrilled you got them back and have no doubt they will be in great condition soon enough!!!!


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Sep 18, 2011)

OMG......This just makes me sick.........


Good luck Kim on bringing your Girls back to health!!!!!!


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## doxiemoxie (Sep 18, 2011)

It is so hard not to just want to stuff them full of food!  Be strong.   Sometimes I keep out a portion of their grain to offer as hand fed treats  just so I don't overfeed.

My experiences with lute are with horses and cows, mostly cows,  and out of dozens of lutes to end misbreedings there was never a complication.  That doesn't mean goats are the same or that those aren't very real risks.   In your shoes I might want the vet to evaluate the animals before I luted them and then to treat  them when he/she can be on call for complications.  I think testing for preg before treating is a good idea.  I suspect the dexamethasone is primarily to help with pain and inflammation, making it less likely they'll have complications.  When you ask, please let us know.

And don't worry about Mandy, she'll come around soon.  As she feels better she'll remember how good it is to be home and all the other stuff will become a vague memory.


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## Roll farms (Sep 18, 2011)

Well, they're pooping dog logs, not sure if that's from the deworming, the grain reintroduction, or stress of the move.

Mandy came to me on purpose tonight *just* for a pet.  Progress!

The boer doe isn't lead trained.  She may be skinny, but that girl is STRONG, and she's wearing me out bringing her in 2x a day to eat.  She's in the best shape but she's not willing to elbow her way into the feeder to eat, so I have to feed her seperately.

Mandy and Hannah are in one of the kidding stalls, let out 2x a day to exercise a bit.  I'm honestly afraid that one good hit will break their ribs, since they're sticking out so far.  They aren't finishing the 1 cup of grain they're up to each, when I go back to feed in the PM there's still some leftover.  I honestly think their stomachs have shrunk so much they can't eat all of it, and the hay...and they prefer the hay.  

I'm gonna talk to the vet tomorrow, see what he thinks.

Doxie - When the vet explained why I needed Dex as well as lute, he said that depending on how far along they are, that w/ out the dex, the lute alone might not be enough to induce a full abortion.  Something about the CL (corpus luteum or whatever it is - what feeds a fetus before the placenta takes over) vs. placental development.  Whatever it was, the dex is supposed to make sure *everything* is passed, not just the fetus alone, causing a retained placenta / uterine infection.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 19, 2011)

I think I'd send out a blood sample to Biotracking.  If you mailed it today you may have the results by Friday.  Actually, the tests might be done on Tuesday, so you may have to overnight it or just send it so you get the results next week.  The "good" thing about the condition Mandy is in is possibly she won't be bred.  You never know.  And the other thing is how far along they are if they are bred.  Don't you wish they could tell you when they were bred?   

And I'd never give any animal to that jerk again, and I'd tell him exactly why too.  Jerk.


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## Roll farms (Sep 19, 2011)

Here's my problem w/ preg testing now....they *just* left the buck.  So I could get neg. results when they're just not far enough along to get a positive.  Gonna ask him 'bout that, too.

Fittin' to go down and get more pics of Mandy.  She has these wierd...lumps of bone..? that I have never seen on a goat...and I've seen a lot of goats...ugh.

edited to add more pics - any ideas what the lumps are?  They're on both sides....DH thinks it's part of her 'bones' (ribs?) but...none of my other goats have anything there...?  These aren't CL / cysts, etc.  They are HARD, bony knobs.

Front 'armpit' area

















Also, more pics of Mandy taken today.  I'm wanting to see miraculous results and it just ain't a happening....

For comparison these are Foxy, my 'skinniest' Nubian doe, and Levi...who Mandy used to be nearly as big as....my hand measures 7" across stretched out.  Look at a ruler.  Hannah and Mandy are *barely* 7" across folks.  I could kill this man.











Hannah






Mandy






More pics of mandy






This is not me pushing in, I'm just illustrating how sunk in she is.


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## RPC (Sep 19, 2011)

Kim, this is just horrible I am so sorry this happened to those pretty girls but I am sure if anyone can turn them around it is you. I was worried Ruby wouldn't be up to your standards but I can not believe someone would return these girls thinking they were fine. I feel bad for all the other goats he may have and I would almost call the ASPCA on him so that he can never do this to another living animal. I hope they turn around for you with a little time.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 19, 2011)

Aww, every time I come back to read this it gets worse & worse. I'm so sorry   I would say since they are SOOOO thin it probably is their rib sticking out.  Hopefully they weren't injured when they were there on top of being severely malnourished, my second guess would be they were injured in some way & the bone is jutting out because of that. But, since it is on both sides I'd go with the rib sticking out.


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## RPC (Sep 19, 2011)

Could it possibly be part of the sternum? Maybe because she is so thin you are seeing it where as you wouldn't on a healthy goat?


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## Roll farms (Sep 19, 2011)

Roger, Ruby was returned in fine shape.    Trust me, you have NO worries!

I don't know if it's ribs, healed break, etc...I have felt every other goat, including Hannah, and she doesn't have them.  The only difference is Hannah doesn't have the frame that Mandy does.  Another "hey doc" question for me to ask tonight.

BTW, Roger, I asked and Fecals are 23.50 at our vet.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Sep 19, 2011)

My God those poor babies..... I want to deck this idiot who would do such a thing to these poor girls.... 
I just can't believe some one would sit there butts down for a meal( and probaly not miss one) and look at these animals  and not think gezzz maybe they'er hungery too..what an A&&

there's a place for people like that i hope they enjoy the heat!!!


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 19, 2011)

Those poor girls.  Those lumps are odd. Maybe they're old vaccine sites/dried up abscesses (not necessarily CL)?  Maybe they didn't know how/where to give vaccines?


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## ksj0225 (Sep 19, 2011)

Gosh Kim... They look thinner with the new pictures although I know they aren't...


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## elevan (Sep 19, 2011)

Those poor girls.

I'd really like to give that guy a piece of my mind  


And I'm really gonna hope that due to their poor condition that any attempt by the buck to breed them was unsuccessful


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## ksalvagno (Sep 19, 2011)

If the buck breeding was very recent, then it really shouldn't be a big deal to lute them. According to my vet, you just have to wait 2 weeks to be sure the CL (corpus luteum) is present. 

It just makes me sick how bad those girls are, especially Mandy. There is no way she could carry a pregnancy. Hopefully she is in such bad shape that she wasn't able to get pregnant.


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## RPC (Sep 19, 2011)

I was just looking over the pictures and from what I can tell Freckles looks pretty good once you get some weight on her. I know we are really concerned with the other 2 but I just wanted to tell you that.


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## Roll farms (Sep 19, 2011)

Roger, when he bought Freckles, her daughter, and her sister last summer, he stopped by here on his way home to show them to me.  She was a fine looking doe then...so when he asked if I'd take her, I said sure.  She is NICE when she's got weight on.

Aggie - these lumps are bone.  Connected to her ribcage some how.  
We're just not sure if it's some sort of odd growth pattern or healed-funny injury or what.

So the vet was shocked / appalled at the pics I showed him on my camera.  He wants to wait 1.5 mos and then do ultrasound.  By then they'll A) be stronger and B) the kids will still be small enough to abort them w/out problems.  
He said he's going to stop here next time he's out this way and feel Mandy's 'lumps'.  From the pics he couldn't tell much but he says maybe it's just 'frame' and it's sticking out since she's so darn skinny.


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## RPC (Sep 19, 2011)

I wonder if Freckles + Freeney = Spots? I think it sounds logical.


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## Roll farms (Sep 20, 2011)

()Relics was offered Freckles last fall by her original owner and was kind enough to forward this pic to me, when I was telling him how bad she looks now.  This was her 1 yr ago.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Sep 20, 2011)

I know under your care these girls will be back to there healthy selfs in no time!!!! 
Still can't wrap my mind around those pictures shame on there so called Owner..


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## wannacow (Sep 20, 2011)

Rol, I am a complete newbie and you have probably forgotten more than I know, but I had a skinny nubian.  I bought her in milk last Mar.  She had been well cared for and her provious owner has been my mentor.  However, Apple was just bone skinny.  She did not like the grain I was feeding and ate very little.  Her milk production dropped from over a gal a day at her last farm to barely a pint/day at my place.  I tried everything to get her to eat.  I read on here somewhere, that a goat person tried calf manna to up production.  I tried that.  Apple LOVED the calf manna.  She ate it mixed with the grain, so she ate the grain and the minerals too.  (I feed purina goat chow)  She still stayed very skinny until about a month and a half ago.  She has put on weight and has a shiney coat.  She has also grown hair back where she had lost it in spots.  She looks great.  I only fed the calf manna for the time it took to go thru 2 bags.  By then she was used to the new feed.  You said your goats aren't eating very much.  Calf manna would be my suggestion to try to get them to eat.


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## Roll farms (Sep 20, 2011)

Thank you for the suggestion.  Calf Manna was already on my list o' stuff to pick up when I go to work today, but I can *always* use reminders.


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## RPC (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow she looked like she was super thick and deep. She looks like she could make some awesome kids but after seeing that picture you can really tell how much weight she has lost. How is ()relic I have not seen or heard from him in a while. I actually am not sure if its a he or she because I don't know their first name. How they are doing well.

Try not to be home when I come get Freeney and don't be surprised if Freckles happened to jump in the truck with Freeney. Oh and I bet Levi will break out and come too. I am really going to need to save up some money so I can get a doe out of Levi if she is bred to bullett sometime.


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## Roll farms (Sep 20, 2011)

Boy, be glad you're getting Freeney w/out me pulling out a shotgun.  I'd shoot ya over Levi.  Freckle's is growing on me, too.

I have found a super home for Hannah to go to when she recovers enough.  I mean a really wonderful pet home where she'll be babied like she needs.

Mandy's staying here forever.  Jury is still out on Freckles long-term chances.  Her horns say no but her attitude says yes.  Let's see how she behaves when she weighs 200# again.

eta, I assume Relics is fine, he hasn't said otherwise...and he is a he.


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## redtailgal (Sep 21, 2011)

x


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## Roll farms (Sep 21, 2011)

Well thank you.  That's the first explanation that's made any sense to me....

And that tells me she has been in bad shape a lot longer than he said, too.


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## RPC (Sep 21, 2011)

I don't blame you if Levi was mine I would shoot anyone that would try to take her. I bet I wouldn't be able to get past edge and gus either.


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## RPC (Oct 3, 2011)

If you decide horns are no good for you you can send Freckles my way. This is a horn friendly herd.


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## Roll farms (Oct 3, 2011)

The pickle I'm in - Freckles is supposed to go back to him.  
Yeah, that ain't happening.
BUT - I won't get her papers.
:/


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## redtailgal (Oct 3, 2011)

Why will you not get her papers?

what a crock.

grrrrr


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 4, 2011)

Just a thought on the papers, if you got the before pic of her when she was offered for sale previously and know who owned her, can't you get papers for her from her old owner/breeder?

I'm sure they would be willing to help if they knew what happened to her. I know it's possible to get replacement papers over here, not sure what your rules are over there. 

You have photo evidence of the condition those goats came to you in, poor babies.  No way I'd be giving him any goat.


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## helmstead (Oct 4, 2011)

I just found this thread.  KIM!  WOW.  I can't imagine how devastated you are to find your girls like this.    I don't think I've seen one as skinny as the red doe above the ground.


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## Roll farms (Oct 4, 2011)

Kate...she staggered off of the open trailer he hauled her here in.  Staggered.  I honestly think she'd have died w/ in days if he hadn't brought her home.

I'm so glad I asked if he was getting rid of them...I doubt she'd be on the planet if I hadn't.

The people Josh bought her from transferred Freckles to him.  He would have to transfer her to me.  I doubt he'll do it when I refuse to give her back.  Ah, well.  It won't be the first time I can't register a goat's offspring as a fullblood even when it is.

The deal we made was I was buying Hannah and Mandy back, and he was 'loaning' me Freckles until he's settled where he's moving and can take her back.  Any kids born between now and then were mine to keep for my 'trouble'.
I didn't get Mandy and Hannah's papers back, either....they're 'packed away'. :/


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 4, 2011)

What a bunch of BS.  It's a bummer to get burned like that, but the important thing is what you've done for the goats.  They were doomed without you!


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## Roll farms (Oct 4, 2011)

I was going to save this for Friday's updated pics, but I'm going to go ahead and ask opinions....

I have tried every 'good' goat feed / supplement I can get my hands on.  
The only thing Mandy and Hannah will actually eat much of is corn.
If I give them goat chow, they turn their noses up.  Same w/ noble goat.  Same w/ calf manna...and goat conditioner from Manna Pro.  I have tried adding different things to entice them....no go.  I've tried the calf manna strait (small amount) and I've NEVER had a goat refuse that stuff.  They don't want it.

I gave up and dumped a scoop of our 'regular mix' - 40% goat chow, 40% noble goat, 10% alf. pellets, 10% corn) in their trough (to see if they'd eat that) and they picked all the corn out, leaving 90% of the 'pellets'.

Is it better to give them what they want (corn) in moderation, of  course.... or keep forcing them to pick at the 'good stuff' and not eat much.

I guess I know the answer (something's better than nothing) but it's aggravating.

They are starting to get bellies, but NOT putting on weight over those bones.  I'm topdressing their feed w/ probiotics, and Mandy's still pooping dog logs.

It's very frustrating b/c I want them to look GOOD.  I still feel sad every time I pet Mandy / feel her bones.  BUT - she (and Hannah) are back to their sweet loving selves.


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 4, 2011)

IMO, corn is great for putting on weight because it's a high energy feed.  If they're getting alfalfa hay (is that right?) they're likely getting the protein they need from that as well.  As long as they're introduced to corn slowly (which I'm sure you're doing already), I think it's fine.  I agree that it's better for them to eat corn and gain weight than to pick at the mix and not gain.  Once they're at an ideal weight then you can make them "eat their veggies" so to speak.


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## Roll farms (Oct 4, 2011)

I know it's good for weight.  And they're getting good, leafy 2nd cutting alfalfa.
But...it makes me feel like I'm giving in and letting a 5 yr old (human) kid eat candy for dinner just b/c it's easier than arguing w/ them.

I feel like I'm being manipulated by a couple bratty children,


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## Ms. Research (Oct 4, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I know it's good for weight.  And they're getting good, leafy 2nd cutting alfalfa.
> But...it makes me feel like I'm giving in and letting a 5 yr old (human) kid eat candy for dinner just b/c it's easier than arguing w/ them.
> 
> I feel like I'm being manipulated by a couple bratty children,


Let them be bratty for a little while.  They've been through hell.  And you are getting them back on their feet with your loving attention.  Once they hit the weight you want them at, then I would start being FIRM with them.  Maybe I'm a softie, because I do root for the underdog and hate to see any animals suffer like that from mistreatment of a human.  These girls have been through hell, almost to the brink of death, I'll let them be bratty just a little bit.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Oct 4, 2011)

In my group competition makes for much less picky eaters.  Once they are out in Gen pop they'll figure out pretty quickly they need to gobble down their veggies too or they'll just be munching on hay that day.  A couple days of somebody else stealing their dinner should make a difference in food attitude.  


 I still can't believe that they are being picky with how hungry they must be.  Just goes to show that goats will find a way to be brats in any situation.


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## helmstead (Oct 4, 2011)

It probably seems counterproductive in writting, but I'd almost nix the grain products entirely and just go with that alfalfa hay until they've put muscle on.

When I rehabbed starved horses...it was hay only for about 4 months, then start adding concentrates.  We'd do hay pellets, alfalfa hay, and add in soaked beet pulp about 1 month in.  Concentrates tend to stress liver and kidneys on starvation cases...so we just went with the best available hay and hay pellets.  Sometimes really good alfalfa wasn't available, so I'd use hay cubes (which goats sometimes have trouble eating).  The beet pulp, later, was a great way to add in topdresses, and eventually a high fat/rice bran senior feed.

It might not be a bad idea to seek out a Senior horse feed (a nice one) that has rice bran in it - mix in some of that corn they're loving, at some point.  But I'd back off the grain for now...

I KNOW they're not horses...but this has worked for me on several "sow's ears" goats we've rescued that today are silk purses.


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## redtailgal (Oct 4, 2011)

Thats how we handle starving rehab horses.  Ease them up to all they can eat of high quality hay , and leave them at it four a couple months.

It is good to see someone else does this, it has amazed me how many people think we are cruel for not giving them grain!


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## Roll farms (Oct 4, 2011)

I agree that competition helps.  If I give Creampuff something, suddenly EVERYONE wants it (she's my 'mikey' - "hey, she likes it.")

See, that's where I was sitting on the fence - because obviously, if a starving HUMAN wanted only candy, we wouldn't let them eat it.  It's not 'good' for them.  

Part of me thinks, "Something's better than nothing" but the (smarter) part of me knows it won't help in the long run.  They are going through about 2 flakes of alf. 2x a day between them.  If I give them more than that they waste a lot of it.  I know they're bored, being kept in a 10 x 10 stall...but I know the fatties would beat them up.  I'm going to give them 2 more weeks in confinement and then try them.

Jaz is in the barn (loose) b/c of her sore foot.  Mandy hopped off the milk stand after I brushed her and went over  to Jaz w/ her ears all stuck out like she was gonna whoop her.  It was sorta like watching a chihuahua challenge a Doberman.  I said, "Yes, Mandy, you're tough..." and led her back to her stall. 

I spent a lot of time grooming them this morning, feeling them all over, etc.  Mandy has bugs.    That probably explains why she's still anemic, eh?
Near as I can tell, Hannah doesn't (and talk about DARK eye membranes, folks, that girl has 'em.   ) but I'm going to inject both w/ ivo since they'll probably leave Mandy and go to Hannah.

I put my hands on their butts and 'measured' again, like I did in the earlier pics, and I can now see goat on either side of my hand.  So I guess they are improving...it's just not as fast as I'd like.  

Why is it that if I start eating a ton of good stuff, the pounds just pile right on? NO FAIR~!


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 4, 2011)

I think either way would be fine.  It's definitely not cruel to not feed grain, but there's nothing wrong with wise feeding of grain either.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 4, 2011)

I'd be leery of too much grain as well.  I'd be pouring as much alfalfa into them as possible and go heavy on the beet pulp.  Let them gain slowly for a while, give the chance for the rumen to adjust, then start working in the concentrates.  I have a doe who was really thin when I purchased her- we've been slowly but surely putting weight on her with free-choice alfalfa, lots of beet pulp, and a very moderate amount of high-fat performance horse feed.  Even without going heavy on the grain she has put on flesh.  Not overnight by any stretch of the imagination, but in a way that is healthy for the rumen.  The difference in her overall appearance has been pretty dramatic.


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## doxiemoxie (Oct 4, 2011)

I'll second, third, fourth, whatever the recommendation to mostly go with the alfalfa and not stress about them eating a good mix of grain.  It can take 6-8 weeks for a digestive tract to get back to some sort of normal, producing berries instead of logs.  As long as they aren't getting looser, having mucus, turning odd colors or odors and you're treating for parasites, don't worry it too much.

When you are ready to try offering other grains again you might try sprouting some of them.  The starches will turn to sugars as they sprout becoming sweeter and maybe more attractive.  Yes, goats are brats and I can gain weight just eating fruits and veggies, so I understand your pain!  

I also would like to think that if you sat Josh down and had an honest heart to heart about the condition of the goats without getting angry at him (even though what he did is infuriating) and ask straight forward for outright ownership and papers on Freckles he might just give in.  He isn't so stupid that he didn't know he was over his head; just stupid to not ask for help when he needed it.  He may not get his act together enough to get you the papers so offer to help him (I don't know what different ways getting her papers can be accomplished...is she tattooed?).  

Lastly:  





> It was sorta like watching a chihuahua challenge a Doberman.


  goats


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