# goats don't seem to be growing correctly for boers



## Jackie365 (Sep 29, 2011)

Hi ,
We bought three goats a couple months ago . The buck is supposed to be pure boer , and the does are half boer half nubian . When we bought them they were anemic , but we have dewormed them and they seem to be doing well (buck gained ten pounds and does gained 5 each  and their eyes looked pretty red although maybe not quite up to totally healthy color ) 
However the buck is eight months old and only weighs 60 p
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





ounds . One doe weighs 35 and the other is 40 pounds and are seven months old . (also the buck has a thin feminine neck compared to pictures of pure heavy south African boers) 
I know they are under weight and I was wonderig if it could be from the anemia , or if maybe t
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




he goats are mixed with Spanish or a small breed .
Thank you ! 

( I will try to post pictures , but I don't know if i can )


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 29, 2011)

photos would help. 

I think your have a good point that they may not be what they are suppose to be.  

But they could have just gotten hit hard with parasites and coccidiosis(A kind of parasite) and it may have severly stunted their growth. They may out grow it, but then again they may not depending on how damaged their stomach is from the parasite load. 

May I ask what you are feeding them?  Be specific, please. Like kind of hay or pasture or browse, kind of grain, brand and percentage of protein, medicated or not medicated, and any minerals you have provided. 


Worming one time may not fix a worm load problem, plus different worms need to be treated differently, Although if you have improved their eye lid color, clearly the wormer has been some what helpful. 

Other worms that come to mind, is the tapeworm, this can really slow down and animals growth, but not show as many other obvious problems, such as anemia or runny poop.  Only certain wormers treat for tapes.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 29, 2011)

you have to post 10 times in the comment section before posting pictures, or you can link pictures to a facebook page or photo page.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 29, 2011)

They live in a pasture with a lot of overgrown plants and varies (different young trees, long grass, and tons of briars)

We have had them approx. 3 months and wormed three times. The first time we used white safeguad (which I hope would have killed tapeworms), the second and third times we subQ injected ivermectin (and weighed them in order to dose as accuratly as possible.)

We haven't done a fecal but if really needed I work at a veterinarian's office and can take one in.

We currently feed approx 1.5-2 quarts of purina goat chow  once a day with 16% crude protein, 2.5% crude fat. (it also has calcium, phosphorous, salt, copper, selenium, vit a , vit E)

We give about two handfuls of producers pride minerals (but the goats don't like it and always leave some in the tub) which has calcium, phos, salt magnesium , potassium, zinc , selenium , iodine, vit a

Thanks!
hopefully you can see the picture , my privacy on fbook may block it.
The link is to a picture of the buck, before he gained ten pounds. 
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...45808758.55336.100000408227273&type=1&theater


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## Roll farms (Sep 29, 2011)

My vote is coccidiosis.  
http://goatconnection.com/articles/publish/article_111.shtml
They don't have to scour or act 'sick' to be carrying a cocci load that can stunt their growth by damaging the intestinal lining.
I would have a fecal ran to verify it.  

I use DiMethox 40% to treat them.  1cc per 5# day 1, 1cc per 10# days 2-7 to TREAT, then I give it every 21 days to keep it under control.  Once they get it, I pretty much treat them until after the 1st hard frost.

Without a fecal, there's no way to know for sure if the deworming is working...it could be a worm / cocci combo.

To treat tapeworms you have to give the safeguard at 2x the label dose, for 3 days in a row.

Ivermectin can be injected- We inject when treating for external parasites- but it won't work as well on stomach worms (barberpole is the main one to worry about) when injected b/c goats metabolize differently.  You can give the ivermectin orally at 1 cc per 25# very safely.

There's some really good info about goat parasites / treatments out there  - anything I do that's 'new / different' is usually from something I read at a university's website / animal health info section, based on studies they've done.  Because if you ask 25 goat people when / how to deworm a goat, you will get 25 different answers.  This thread has some good info.

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12553

Your buck is a pretty boy, but if that pic is recent he needs help.  
I have a 5 mo. old buck that weighs 60# and a 9 mo. old boy who's well over 120#.
He also doesn't look pure boer to me, his face seems dished and he's not 'heavily boned' BUT - it is really, really hard to say for sure from one pic, esp. when they are young.

The feed you're using isn't a bad one for adults, but I prefer to raise kids on Purina Noble Goat.  Some areas have medicated (to control coccidiosis)  noble goat w/ ammonium chloride added (to prevent urinary calculi in bucks / wethers), check the feed tags.  The medication will not cure coccidiosis, but if they eat enough it will help keep a low cocci load.

Is the Prod. Pride mineral a sheep and goat mineral?  
If so, switch them to Manna Pro mineral.  TSC has it in an 8 or 10# bag.  My goats LOVE it and it has the copper in it that goats NEED.  Anything listed for 'sheep' won't have enough copper.  I use that and ADM Goat Power mineral for our goats.

You can see our boer boys here:  http://www.rollfarms.com/id32.html - Bullitt is almost 10 mos, Freeney is almost 5 mos, and Saturday is a little over a year old.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 29, 2011)

Thank you so much. I will try and get a fecal done on them. I am attatched to the goats not only emotionally but also financially ince we spent a pretty penny on them.

If I give them the treatment for cocc. right away (without doing the fecal) will it hurt them if they don't have the parasite?

Thanks so much for the additional feed and dosage information, I am very unfamiliar to goats and I am attending vet school in about two years and am hoping to be a 'goat savvy' veterinarian and need to learn everything I can.

I am very worried about the girls also. I will put some more pictures of all three up once I can get them all on, it may be as long as an hour though.


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## Roll farms (Sep 29, 2011)

It will not 'hurt' them, but it may give inconclusive results w/ the fecal - if you kill off the cocci (which is the idea) you won't see the oocysts in the fecal.
If it was me, I'd treat 'em anyway and then be sure to do a fecal in 21 days to see if it's working...but I *know* we have coccidia in our soil, so I *know* to treat for it.
If it isn't, SMZ-TMP is a good cocci treatment, too...you can get it from your vet.... 1 - 90mg pill per 75# of goat.  I put them in a syringe, add water, and then shake until they dissolve, then squirt it down their throats.  You could cut them in half for the smaller goats.
You can order the DiMethox through Jeffers or any of the other livestock supply places.  TSC doesn't carry it, but a local (to you) feed store might.

Another 'helpful hint' - give dewormer / cocci meds 1st thing in the morning on an 'empty' stomach.  I've read they're more effective that way.  
Then I wait 45-60 minutes to feed them.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 29, 2011)

Sorry I won't be able to post pictures until I get back to campus internet , which won;t be until later tommorrow. 

Thank you, I will go ahead and order the DiMethox today and since we are out of feed I will try and buy some medicated stuff tommorrow for the cocc.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 29, 2011)

The DiMethox (http://www.valleyvet.biz/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e07bbe-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&gas=dimethox) is listed as being IV injectable. Can you inject it SubQ? I'm not very comfortable doing IV on goats and may have to call the vet if it has to be IV
Thanks!


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## Roll farms (Sep 29, 2011)

You give it orally.
Put the needle in the bottle, draw the DiMethox into a syringe, and then remove the needle and squirt it down their throats.   Get it as far back as possible before squirting it.
(without losing the syringe...don't ask me how I know...)

Be warned, it tastes nasty and they will slobber, spit, and make pitiful sounds.  But, it's better than a sick / dead goat.  

You can try mixing it w/ syrup or something sweet, but in my experience it's easier to get 5 cc of something really nasty down their throats than it is 10cc of something not quite as nasty.


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## Roll farms (Sep 29, 2011)

Again I'm going to point this out....there is very little medicine labeled for goats.  

You pretty much have to ignore what you see on any medicine bottle that does not have goats listed....goats are not cows, and you can't treat them the same.
DiMethox is injected in cattle, but given orally to goats for Coccidiosis.

Another example.....cattle get 1cc per 100# of pen g.  Goats need 5cc per 100#.  If you have a 200# cow, they'd get 2cc.  A 200# goat would get 10 cc.

Here's a site for you to save, it has a lot of good dosage info 

http://www.goatworld.com/health/meds/dosages.shtml

A couple others

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/goatmedications.html

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/medications.htm


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 30, 2011)

Roll Stated to treat tapes give The safeqaurd at 2x the label dose 3x a day. I am not sure if she did a typo or if that is what she is using for a dose, But We use 3x the label dosage for 3days.   

I would put them back on the safeqaurd for 3 days and put them on the sulfa-dimethoxine for 5 days.   It looks to me like cocci as well.  It hit some of our summer kids this year that were born in June and they still haven't pulled out of it.  They are clearly stunted and have that pot belly look to them.  

I would repeat all the treatments in a month.

I would also give them probios gel near the end of the treatment and for a couple days after the treatment is done. 


I didn't read everything that Roll wrote, I am being lazy. so sorry If I repeat what she says, or worst yet, make the information confussing some how.  

Okay you are feeding 3 goats 6 to 8 cups of 16% purina goat feed. Is it medicated for cocci?   IF not I would be switching feeds. Make sure it has Ammonia chloride in it for Urinary calculi for the buck.  Also 3 cups of feed is 1lb of feed. So you aren't quit feeding each of them 1 lb.  

A boer goat grows best when fed 3 to 4 % of its body weight in grain a day. So if your goat weighs 50lbs they should be eating 5 1/2 cups of feed or 1 1/2 lbs of grain a day.  I know some goats are raised on pasture alone, but I think we are past that point for you. They need to put weight on. Getting them wormed and treated for cocci and then upping their feed will help get them be on the right track. Make feed changes slowly.  increase 1/2 cup or so every 3 or 4 days per goat.  If you need to switch feeds, substiture out no more than 1/4 of the new feed with the old feed every 3 or 4 days until you have switched over or have used up all the old feed. 

With all that said, If they were mine, I would have them on free choice grain until they put weight back on and started growing. That will probably be around 4% of their body weight a day.  If you don't have a good way to keep grain out all the time. Feeding 2 times a day and feeding just enough that they have some left over when they walk away from the feeder will also work. 


I would also consider getting my hands on some Bo-se injectable.  Bo-se is a Rx from the vet. Our vets office just lets us go in and buy it from them. A bottle is around $20. It is 1cc  per 40 lbs injected. It is a selenium and vit E mixture.  If you can't get a hold of this. Try breaking open a couple soft gel vit E capsules for a few days and mixing it into their feed. Ofcourse it wont help with selenium, but vit E is good for healing. 


Well, HOpe some of this helped. Good luck with them.  They will be looking much better in a couple months.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 30, 2011)

Thank you so much ! I have gone out and gotten everything , and will start treating them today . I an increasing the food , and will try to get as close to free feeding as possible . Thanks ! If I hadn't posted on here I would just have assumed they were suppose to be small , since they didn't seem sick .


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 30, 2011)

I agree with Roll about the buck, I would be surprised if he is pure boer. Maybe he is above 90%, but doubtful he is pure. And ofcourse if the seller used the word pure instead of full-blood, it would mean he has something else in his background that wasn't registered or not even boer.  

A full-blood comes from all full-blood background, they can't ever be something none registered or none boer in the background. 

A pure can be built up from a cross breed. A doe has to be 96% to be considered pure and a buck has to be one more generation at 98%. to be pure. ATleast  I think I have that right. So he could  technically have a little something else in him. 

OR, Got to love the or part. 

He could just be stunted. 

I have a full-blood doeling from February, I purchased as a project, she has 10 enoblements in her first 3 generations. She was maybe 30 lbs when I got her at 6 months of age. Very malnurished, mom had a torn teat and the breeder didn't seperate her or creep feed her to help the babies out. She is around 50lbs right now and looking alot better. But other does I purchased at the same time from the same farm and same age are topping 100lbs.  I still have high hopes for her. Her papered name "ripmotized", but her farm name is fuzzball, because she was so malnurished she didn't shed and loose her winter coat for the summer. She no longer fits her name, since she is no longer fuzzy.  She has got the funniest personality.   We are holding her until she is closer to 2 years of age to breed her.  

You will not beable to breed your does when you had hoped, They will be too small to breed as a yearling. They should be close to 90 lbs with good flesh on them.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 30, 2011)

The buck is registered , but listed in the registry online website yet . His papers say that he is 100% boer buck , full blood herd book , American improved boer . His great great great grandpa on his dads side was enabled ( Powell / Holland 231p) 
And his great great great grandma is reported as slvr/plat .So I think he is full , just really stunted .
I feel so bad that we didn't recognize their sickness sooner


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## Roll farms (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm not saying he's NOT fullblood...he may well be.

BUT...there are breeders out there who fudge paperwork and say goats are 'this' when really they are 'that'.

For instance....I have a Togg buck who keeps escaping into other pens.  

IF he bred my other does (I will kill my husband - it's his goat) I'll not be registering them.  
But SOME people will go ahead and register kids as pure when they know better.

I have a really cute spotted buckling, Freeney....he's only 88% Boer.  I could fudge and claim any kids he sires are out of Bullitt or Saturday, so that I can register them a higher %, but I WON'T do it.

All I'm saying is....papers don't make it a fact, if ya know what I mean.  
AND - with time to grow and get better, he may turn into an awesome buck.  I hope he does.


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## Jackie365 (Sep 30, 2011)

Okay , good to know . Thank you !


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