# Baby Goat Hypothermic?



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

I have a pair of Nigerian Dwarf Bucklings that were born a month ago and they have been wonderfully hale & hearty.  As our night time temps have dropped here in NM they have grown in a nice, thick, warm coat and seemed to be doing just fine in a small pen with their mama, sleeping in a small house provided for the three of them.

Even though there are only two of them and the mama goat has plenty of milk, it seems she has rejected one of the (large) babies and we found him laying in a corner of the pen by himself and he was unable to stand.  He tried to get up with his front feet but his back feet were weak.

His eyes are bright and he is able to lie with his head held high and is observing everything that is going on around him.  We have him settled under a ceiling furnace vent with blankets piled on him.  His ears are still cold, but he does not have runny eyes or nose.

I can't find my nipple to get some warm milk into him with a bottle, but did get him to drink a small (tiny!) amount in a bowl.  He nibbled a tiny bit at some hay as well.  

Two questions, does it sound as if this baby has hypothermia?  If so, am I treating him correctly?  And, why would his mama have rejected him after a month of everything going so well?  She is a veteran mom and has only rejected one other baby, the runt out of a group of four.

My DH is running to the feed store to get me another nipple, should he pick up anything else to help this little guy?

Thanks for any and all advice you can give!

ETA: He is currently helping himself to the milk bowl and is lapping at it independently.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 1, 2010)

This sounds like something else quite serious.  Perhaps FKS?  I would want to get him to a vet...


----------



## glenolam (Dec 1, 2010)

What are his other symptoms?  Diarreah? Temperature?  Any trauma, such as playing too hard, getting knocked into something?

I agree - there may be something else serious going on, so you may want to act quickly other than wait and see.


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

Thanks for the replies!

I did a quick search for info on FKS, and I agree that this seems a more likely cause for this little guy's problems.

http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=70

He has been in a small pen with his mama and sibling and was getting all of the yummiest, high test milk he wants all day and night long.   I have already turned mama and brother out into a larger pen with my pastured hens....so mama will be better able to get away from the voracious duo!

The good news is that the baby is now standing on his own, though a little weak/wobbly he did get up by himself.

I have given him 12 ml of baking soda mixed into a pint of warm water, by syringe.  I am going to give him some more in a couple of hours.  The info says 1 teaspoon baking soda in a glass of water, so my solution may be a bit on the weak side since I used a pint jar of water.  Any thoughts?  Should I make a stronger solution?

He has pooped, normal pellets not diarrhea.

I have a bottle of penicillinin the fridge (that was never used) for an old Nanny that died recently.  If I wanted to give him some, how much would you recommend?  (Sorry if that is an inappropriate question)

Thanks again for the help and suggesting he might have FKS.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 1, 2010)

When I give bicarb, I do it with a highly saturated solution (so I don't have to drench so much, each drench you give invites an aspiration).  I make baking soda balls, and shove those into the back of the mouth or, if they're weaker, I will mix 1 tsp of soda into just enough water (maybe 2 tbsp) to get it sucked into the syringe for drenching.

I would not give him milk until he's back to 100%.  You can give him some sugar water (karo syrup or molasses in warm water) but no milk until he's improved (or he'll just crash again).


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> When I give bicarb, I do it with a highly saturated solution (so I don't have to drench so much, each drench you give invites an aspiration).  I make baking soda balls, and shove those into the back of the mouth or, if they're weaker, I will mix 1 tsp of soda into just enough water (maybe 2 tbsp) to get it sucked into the syringe for drenching.
> 
> I would not give him milk until he's back to 100%.  You can give him some sugar water (karo syrup or molasses in warm water) but no milk until he's improved (or he'll just crash again).


Excellent info, thank you!  I was worried about making too strong a BS solution, but it sounds like stronger with less water is better than weaker and the potential to aspirate.  I will give him more in one hour using a stronger solution or the balls you spoke of.  Is that basically just wetting the soda until it holds a shape?

I was also concerned about whether or not I should give him water, since he will be going without milk.  How often should I give him molasses in water?  Should I offer him hay?

When I put him back with mom (after he is fully recovered) they will all be in a bigger pen and hopefully it won't be as easy for him to pig out.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

Hope your little guy pulls thru! If it is FKS you will want to ask whoever is running for the nipple to get some C&D antitoxin and get it into him to as a preventative. And hold off on the milk..till he's better.  Give him molasses, corn syrup and water for a bit..let his belly relax.  If he is able to use his tounge okay then I would mix him a batch of 1 tblspn baking soda, 1 tbls molasses or corn syrup and warm water enough to make it drinkable...and give him that.  If not syrine it in...with just water and soda.

How long has he been down???  If the baking soda is working after a few doeses he may of just had a mild case of FKS..and consider yourself blessed!  

This is gonna so strange...but if you can pick him up and have your ear to his belly and give him a little shake. (Little shake cuz he dos'nt feel good) you can hear if it sounds like milk is just sloshing around.  That will help you tell if his guts are moving again or if he is still full with milk.  

And as for penicillian Im not sure about that.  Never had to use it???

Good luck...keep us posted..hope he does well!!


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

If you have some Vitiamin B, I would get some into him too...


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Hope your little guy pulls thru! If it is FKS you will want to ask whoever is running for the nipple to get some C&D antitoxin and get it into him to as a preventative. And hold off on the milk..till he's better.  Give him molasses, corn syrup and water for a bit..let his belly relax.  If he is able to use his tounge okay then I would mix him a batch of 1 tblspn baking soda, 1 tbls molasses or corn syrup and warm water enough to make it drinkable...and give him that.  If not syrine it in...with just water and soda.
> 
> How long has he been down???  If the baking soda is working after a few doeses he may of just had a mild case of FKS..and consider yourself blessed!
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding to my questions!  I appreciate it so much.  Sorry if any of them sound ignorant.

Do I give him the water, corn syrup and molasses in a bottle?  I am worried, now, about giving him secondary pneumonia by giving him liquids by syringe!

C & D Antitoxin?  Is that for E Coli and Clostridium?  The link from Texas A & M that I looked at said:

The third part of the treatment consists of administering a wide spectrum antibiotic to prevent secondary infections. 

That is why I wondered about penecillin.  

I just gave him a bit of baking soda mixed with water at the back of his throat and he swallowed it fine.  

When I listened to his belly, just now, it did not sound sloshy.  He passed a bit of poop, some free pellets and one knot of pellets that looked like a pine cone.  I did notice that his stool smelled unpleasant, and goat poop usually doesn't smell terrible.

He was absolutely fine last night when I went out to my late afternoon feeding before bed time.  It was this morning that we found him laying in a corner of the pen unable to get up.  He and his brother are both very tame and love to be petted and handled and he got his fair share of lovin' last night.  I would know if he had been sick last night.

Let's hope that means he just has a mild case and will get better quickly.

Can you explain to me about the C & D antitoxin?

Thank you again!


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> If you have some Vitiamin B, I would get some into him too...


I take a super B complex myself, can I grind up one of those and put it in his bottle of water and molasses, etc?


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

As for the Vitamin B tablet form for humans? Well Im not sure if any of the fillers etc would be ok at all for goats.  At this point I would not risk it.

They sell injectable B at Tractor Supply etc and thats the only one I would recomend at this point.  Its cheap for a large bottle and a must for having on hand when you have goats.  

The C&D Anti toxin injection is for Enterotoxeima (overeating disease) shot.  It also is inexspensive and avail at TSC...it will assist in elminating toxins from the gut. Which is mostly the undigested milk you hear sloushing around that is not moving thru him.   But the baking soda is the most important in this mix.  

FKS is accidosis..and the baking soda will neutralize the acidity in the belly.  Its very serious...not trying to worry you but you need to stay on top of this guy. 

You dont want to add milk to his belly right now cuz his belly is not working now..and its just making it fuller.  So thats why molasses or sugar liquids are recomended its like gatorade when you have a flu.  Yes you do want to give him some water with these sugars..but not tons..just enough to keep dehydration from happening.  

My husband just piped in about the penicillian and said its given becuase secondary bacterial infection may start in the guts after this episode.  But I truly dont know...I would ask your vet about that...not that I dont believe my husband or anything! LOL  But it makes sense.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

I missed the poop part...yes it is gonna be very stinky...I meant to ask you...is his tounge working...is he able to take the bottle??? Or lick from a bowl...and is he up and walking???


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

okay, I need a nipple, C & D Antitoxin and injectable vit B.

My husband is running to the feed store at lunch and I hope they have everything he needs.

We don't have TSC just a mom and pop place.

I will post an update.


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> I missed the poop part...yes it is gonna be very stinky...I meant to ask you...is his tounge working...is he able to take the bottle??? Or lick from a bowl...and is he up and walking???


Yes, his tongue is working and he had been lapping milk from a bowl (until I found out that he should not).

If my DH has to run to the next town to get the things he needs it won't happen until after school is out, so I think I will have to gently and carefully give him a bit of water and molasses by syringe.

He has been able to stand and once even got to his feet by himself.  He is unsteady though, like his legs are weak.


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 1, 2010)

I just went and "fed" him 9 ml of molasses and warm water mixed.  He actually suckled the narrow syringe we have as I gently pushed the plunger.

My syringe is a small 3ml one, after giving him three of them I decided that was probably enough at one time.

When I have a bottle how much should I give him at one time and what ratio of molasses, corn syrup, etc...to how much warm water?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

If his tounge is working! Than thats great. Cuz sometimes thier tounges will paralyse too which makes it very difficult.  The syrine is good..it will work..I hope he finds what you need at the local store.  But I would have him at least drop the nipple off 1st before going out on his search for the other items.  The most important is the baking soda anyway..the other things definatley help..but neutralizing the acid in that belly is sooo important. 

Good luck and keep us posted...!! 

Im sure you may know this..but make sure his neck is up like drinking from his Mom when bottle feeding..ok...you probally knew that..just sayin in case...


----------



## helmstead (Dec 1, 2010)

At a month old, he might not figure the bottle out.  I'd work on training him to drink from a bowl...and just offer the sugar water.  Until you can watch him drink a nice little drink...just give him a little (maybe 5-10 cc) every couple hrs.  The sugar water does two things - causes scours (which is actually GOOD right now because he'll be constipated from the FKS) and provides cheap energy.  Just make the water sweet like really sweet tea.

FKS causes the gut to stop...which sets up the perfect scenario for enterotoxemia and polio.  You give the C&D antitoxin to kill the entero-causing bacteria (I'd do 10 cc PO and 10 cc SQ every 12 hrs) and you give the B complex to avoid polio and provide energy and appetite.

Don't be surprised if his dam is done with him when you get him better.  This is why I'd train him to drink from a bowl so you can supplement him with milk, in a bowl.  It's pretty hard to get a month old kid onto a bottle.

Yes, just add enough water to the bicarb to form a ball...you've got it.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

I agree...if his tounge is working well and no paralyses..let him lick from a bowl...he wont aspirate if he is lapping and swollowing fine.  And I also agree he may not take to the bottle...so if not...give it to him in a bowl.

Sometimes when they are really out of it..or are either too weak to feed themselves you have to be careful when drenching..I think thats what was meant??


----------



## helmstead (Dec 1, 2010)

Any time you drench...ANY TIME...you can wind up with aspiration.  It's especially more likely in a neurologically compromised critter...or in a baby critter.  And baking soda, well, that's one thing for sure you don't want them to aspirate.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 1, 2010)

Well said Kate! About the drenching...much better explaination..  Thanks


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 2, 2010)

Just curious how your boy is doing today??  Hope there is a big change for the better!!!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 2, 2010)




----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 2, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Just curious how your boy is doing today??  Hope there is a big change for the better!!!


In spite of everything we did, the little one died early this morning at 3:00 am.  We were up with him all night and honestly thought he was going to make it.  

We gave him a shot of C & D antitoxin and penicillin yesterday.  He was lapping up water with molasses and corn syrup out of a bowl.  Every time we left the room he would cry for us so one of us was with him all night.  

All six of my children were watching as this baby was born in October and they sat with him all day yesterday, so there are some sad people kids here at our house this morning.   

Thank you from the bottom of my heart Emmetts Dairy and Helmstead for all of your help.

Do I give this C & D Antitoxin to kids when they are newborn?  I never want this to happen again.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 2, 2010)

Darn.    So sorry!

No, you only give C&D antitoxin when it's needed.  Do make sure the dam is UTD on her CD&T vaccine prior to kidding (about 30 days out) to provide some protection for the kids...and then start their vaccinations when they're 3 weeks old.

There is not always something we can do.  My gut says that the dam knew something you didn't given that she'd started to reject him.  Just know you did what you could for him, and he passed with family all around.


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 2, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Darn.    So sorry!
> 
> No, you only give C&D antitoxin when it's needed.  Do make sure the dam is UTD on her CD&T vaccine prior to kidding (about 30 days out) to provide some protection for the kids...and then start their vaccinations when they're 3 weeks old.
> 
> There is not always something we can do.  My gut says that the dam knew something you didn't given that she'd started to reject him.  Just know you did what you could for him, and he passed with family all around.


Thanks for your kind words and encouragement, Kate.  And, especially all of the good instruction and advice.


----------



## lilhill (Dec 2, 2010)

So very sorry that you lost your little guy.  Even though we do the best we can do, sometimes it's just not enough and we lose them.  Hugs to you and the kids.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 2, 2010)

Oh no...I am sooo sorry for you guys. Thats terrible news.  This is the tough part of raising animals.  You did you best by him and thats all we can do.  The rest is out of our hands.  

As Kate said..you just keep the Mom UTD on her vaccines and give her the best diet for pregnant does.  FKS can happen to any of us..no matter how healthy our herds are.  It is still kinda unexplainable at this point. But they are starting to do more and more research.

Again...I am soooo very sorry for you..and your family..I hope you find some peace...


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 2, 2010)

I will find it for you later..cuz Im off to the dentist.  But there is a listing of vaccines needed Im sure. So you can get the rest of them up to date.

Just so you know there is a differance between C&D antitoxin and C&DT vacination. 1st one is as needed and the other is a preventative vaccine. 

Im sorry again for you...I kept looking last nite to see if you may have updated.  He was in my thoughts.


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 2, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> I will find it for you later..cuz Im off to the dentist.  But there is a listing of vaccines needed Im sure. So you can get the rest of them up to date.
> 
> Just so you know there is a differance between C&D antitoxin and C&DT vacination. 1st one is as needed and the other is a preventative vaccine.
> 
> Im sorry again for you...I kept looking last nite to see if you may have updated.  He was in my thoughts.


If you would post that list or send it to me by email that would be really helpful.  I did not know there were two different C&D injections.  I looked and my husband did get the antitoxin.  I will pick up the C&DT vaccine as we get closer to my other doe's kidding.  

Or, should I get the vaccine now and give it to his sibling?

I am wondering if we just didn't get the penicillin into him fast enough.  He never did have another bowel movement after the first.  Plus, we figure he had laid out there all night and that must have given any bacteria time to take hold in his stagnant gut.   

Does FKS really hit so hard and fast?  I had just seen and held him at about 5:00 pm and he was jumping around happy and healthy.  The next morning he was unable to get up.  Could he have eaten too much of the grain I fed the mama goat?  Or is this strictly related to overeating milk?

I feed the mama's alfalfa and a variety of grains while they are pregnant and after the babies are born because they are so hungry when they are lactating.

Here in the desert SW the forage in the pastures is pretty sparse, so I give them treats (fruits and veggies) in addition to their high quality hay and small amounts of grain.  Does this sound like an adequate diet?  

Thank you again for your kind words and thoughts. 

Deb


----------



## helmstead (Dec 2, 2010)

Yes, you should get everyone going on the CD&T.  Does should also get an extra booster 30 days prior to kidding (if you're unsure of kidding date...just know the vaccine needs to be at least 2 wks before as it takes 14 days to become 'active' in the system).

Pen isn't part of the treatment I use for FKS or entero.  Really, it doesn't do any good for any of the gastrointestinal 'bugs'.  Doesn't necessarily hurt, but doesn't help either.

Yes - FKS hits hard and fast, just like any other goat ailment.  Our first case of FKS was fast and deadly - a 3 week old buck kid was all spunk and vinegar at the evening feeding and was dead the next morning.  His sibling brother also nearly succumbed, but we were successful with treating him thanks to our vet informing us as to what was going on.  

No one _really_ knows what causes FKS.  The biggest reason for its mortality is actually secondary - usually entero.

If your does appear healthy and their kids are of good weight and growth, you're doing fine on diet.  Don't overthink or over analyze, as we've said, there's not always a 'fault'...these things do just happen.


----------



## glenolam (Dec 2, 2010)

I've been watching this thread but not participating because the others touched on everything I could've thought - I luckily haven't dealt with FKS so I wouldn't have been much help anyway, but I am really really sorry to hear about him.

I thought this thread  might help you get an idea of what some people have on hand for their goats.  Both lists are huge and you probably don't need everything, but it gives you an idea of what others do.

This website's owner isn't really in the goat scene anymore so some of these methods aren't current, but the Fias Co Farm website has a great list of items needed as well as a vaccination schedule to follow.

I hope your next kidding goes well!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 2, 2010)




----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 2, 2010)

I sent you some info via email...and glenon just posted some good places for you too.  

Please dont beat yourself up to much about it. You did everything in your power to have a healthy Mom and kids.   FKS does come fast and hard.  And it happens to the best herdsman around.  It something no one can prevent..we only pray we catch it fast enough and can save them..and not all can be saved...you did you best...!!

Good Luck..with the rest..hope they all live well and grow up to be beautiful happy goaties!!


----------



## Patchesnposies (Dec 2, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> I sent you some info via email...and glenon just posted some good places for you too.
> 
> Please dont beat yourself up to much about it. You did everything in your power to have a healthy Mom and kids.   FKS does come fast and hard.  And it happens to the best herdsman around.  It something no one can prevent..we only pray we catch it fast enough and can save them..and not all can be saved...you did you best...!!
> 
> Good Luck..with the rest..hope they all live well and grow up to be beautiful happy goaties!!


Thanks so much Becky!  I did get your email and took note of the sites that Glenolam posted too.  

Everyone has been SO helpful and encouraging.  It leads me to believe that "goat people" are some of the sweetest and biggest hearted folks around.

Mega cyber hugs to each of you for your kindness!  

Deb


----------



## Roll farms (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm sorry you lost him.

We lost one to what I thought was FKS a few years ago, took it to the vet's office for a post (because I was stumped, she *should* have improved) and she ended up having a blockage in her intestines that caused her death.  She was 5 days old.  

It's hard.  Especially when human kids hearts get broken.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 2, 2010)

Yep, that's why when I have a baby go down...at all...I treat for every possible tummy trouble.  I bang out the C&D, bicarb, oil, B Complex and do enemas til they're better.  Constipation and blockages became an issue with them when I started bottle feeding...mostly in the first 3 weeks when I'd switch them to cows milk for the new owners.  I've gotten so jumpy about it, they get the whole book.  :/  Most of the time we get it, every now and then we don't...and it never is easy, ever.

All those tummy troubles seem to present with the same symptoms, so instead of guessing...blam.


----------

