# If the eyelids are white looking, does that mean they need wormed???



## Speedy94c

Ive checked alot of my goats lately and most are a white looking inside the eyelid, some are pink up to red looking but most are white. I did worm  60 days or so ago, ivermectin inj oraly 3x recomended dose for the weight, then 30 days ago safeguard paste 3 times the recamended weight.
Should I do it again?  How often does everyone worm your goats?

Do I need to worm certain ones until the inner eyelids turn pink? How long does it take them to turn after a good worming. 

Most of my goats are adults about 40 of them and about 20 young 3-6 month olds. They are on about 10 acres with plenty of fresh water and I feen 16% goat feed twice a day.

Thanks STeve


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## ksalvagno

I would have fecals done before I would do any more worming. Usually you wait 2 weeks from the last dose of dewormer before you have a fecal done. Have a few fecals done on the ones with the white eyelids. Also make sure the vet checks for coccidia too.

You could always give the ones with the white eyelids some Red Cell too.


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## cmjust0

Yes, the ones with white eyelids need to be dewormed.  Ivomec is OK -- but just OK, usually -- and dosing them @ 3x the label is a little light..  I've been using it @ 1ml/25lbs of goat, given as a drench (orally).

If I were you, I'd repeat what you did 60 days ago (which was mid-May, before barberpole season was really in full-swing) and then go back in about 2wks and re-treat with something stronger like Cydectin...or even Levasole, if you can find it.   

(Bear in mind, though, that killing too many worms at once in a severely anemic goat can actually kill the goat...  Do your homework.  I'm just saying what *I'd* do, but you should be aware that I'm just an ignorant hillbilly who don't know no better.   )

But, yes...if they're white, they're anemic.  Badly anemic.  And when they're anemic, that means barberpoles are making eggs..  And when barberpoles are cranking out eggs, the infested goat is shedding HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of barberpole eggs per day.

Which, of course, means you're gonna have to stay way up on top of this through the Fall, because your pastures are probably extremely contaminated at this point.

As for frequency of deworming...most of us deworm as-needed.  Right now, for me personally, that's gonna end up being pretty dang frequently on some of my goats.


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## glenolam

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> ...and then go back in about 2wks and re-treat with something stronger like Cydectin...or even Levasole, if you can find it.


Like this cydectin ?

Or one of these ?


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## cmjust0

glenolam said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and then go back in about 2wks and re-treat with something stronger like Cydectin...or even Levasole, if you can find it.
> 
> 
> 
> Like this cydectin ?
> 
> Or one of these ?
Click to expand...

Any of the three can be used on goats..

The pour-on is used as a drench.  It's 5mg/ml, and a 500ml bottle is about $60.  Works out to $0.024/mg.  I've drenched with it before, didn't like doing it, and won't recommend it to others.  Stuff contains a chemical called "aromatic 100," which is an industrial solvent.  It's used in paint thinner, varnish, jet fuel, stuff like that..  To me, that's not a good thing to put down a goat's throat.

The dosage breakdown on it, though is about 1ml/25lbs...so at least we can work off that to figure other drenching dosages..  About 1mg/5lbs of goat.  

Now, compare the pour-on to the Cydectin sheep drench...it's 1mg/ml.  To achieve the same dosage level as the pour-on, you'd have to give 1ml/5lbs -- twice the sheep dosage.  A 1000ml bottle costs about $65 -- $0.065/mg.  Not a bargain, obviously, considering a 150lb goat would need **30ml**..  

But, it's safer going down the gullet.  

Then there's the injectable..  It's about $80/200ml, and it's 10mg/ml.  Works out to $0.04/mg -- right between the pour-on and the drench.    It's twice as strong as the pour-on, and ten-times as strong as the drench on a mg/ml basis.  The recommendation in this area -- at this point in time, anyway -- is administering is SQ at the label dosage of 1ml/110lbs..  Believe it or not, it works...takes FOREVER, but it works.  

Frankly, I don't think I like using it that way.  

I think I may actually switch to using it orally..  The advice that's being given now, as far as I can tell, is based on a conclusion reached by the southern consortium for small ruminant parasite control (SCSRPC)..  The SCSRPC had previously stated a belief that parasite resistance would develop more slowly if the drug were injected because "moxidectin has a superior pharmacokinetic profile in goats when administered by subcutaneous injection as compared to when administered orally.   This means that a much greater proportion of the drug administered remains in the body at high therapeutic levels, but is no more persistent over time."

To me, that made no sense whatsoever..  What they're essentially saying there is that when injected SQ, the blood levels go way up....and then crash.  I don't buy it.  And that's not what I've seen in terms of the slooooooow results.

My suspicion has always been that it would remain in the body for a longer period of time when given SQ..  My thinking is that as it's filtered out of the system, the levels are constantly falling...which would mean they're running around on "low-dose" Cydectin for a period of time, and we ALL know that's bad news..  Low doses of anthelmintic are a really, really good way of building resistance.

Hell, Fort Dodge is apparently even developing a sheep injectable called 'Cydectin LA' which is a slow-release formulation dosed at **5 TIMES** the current injectable dose.  The whole idea behind it is to slow down resistant parasite selection by keeping the blood levels high for a longer period of time...which, to me, indicates that FORT FRICKEN DODGE is thinking exactly what I'm thinking...

Still...I went with the experts' recommendation from SCSRRRSPISCSP or whatever, because, ya know, they're the smartest people in the room..

Right?

_Right??!?_

Well..  :/

A little linkless, explanationless blurb on their homepage now reads:



> Due to recent developments, the SCSRPC is revisiting the use of injectable Cydectin in goats and, until further notice, the oral route of administration (sheep drench) is preferred.


  

Having said that...ya...think I'm gonna refer to my gut and actually DRENCH the injectable from now on, and probably at a dose equivalent to 1mg/5lbs bodyweight.  So, 1ml/50lbs.

Still, not too bad...a 3ml drench for an adult.   Cheaper than the drench, safer than the pour-on.

That's just me, though.  And, as y'all have probably heard by now, I'm just an ignorant hillbilly who don't know no better.


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## Speedy94c

OK IM CONFUSED.   

THINKING BACK, AFTER I WORMED WITH THE SAFEGUARD, I DID LOOSE SOME OF MY GOATS. THEY DIDNT APPEAR SICK ITS LIKE THEY WOULD JUST LAY DOWN AND DIE.  I AM THINKING NOW I KILLED THEM BY WORMING THEM.

HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT WORMING AND NOT KILLING THE GOAT IF THEY ARE LOADED WITH BARBERPOLE WORMS? 

I SURE DONT WANT TO LOOSE ANYMORE OF MY GOATS. 
ONE OF THE ONES I LOST WAS BY BEST FRIEND, SHE WOULD FOLLOW ME EVERYWHERE. 

WHAT TO DO?????


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## cmjust0

speedy said:
			
		

> OK IM CONFUSED.
> 
> THINKING BACK, AFTER I WORMED WITH THE SAFEGUARD, I DID LOOSE SOME OF MY GOATS. THEY DIDNT APPEAR SICK ITS LIKE THEY WOULD JUST LAY DOWN AND DIE.  I AM THINKING NOW I KILLED THEM BY WORMING THEM.


Not likely to have been the case using Safe-Guard...it's pretty harmless stuff.  

Even to worms.  :/



> HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT WORMING AND NOT KILLING THE GOAT IF THEY ARE LOADED WITH BARBERPOLE WORMS?
> 
> I SURE DONT WANT TO LOOSE ANYMORE OF MY GOATS.
> ONE OF THE ONES I LOST WAS BY BEST FRIEND, SHE WOULD FOLLOW ME EVERYWHERE.
> 
> WHAT TO DO?????


Well...I had a kid who was whited out pretty good just the other day.  He got an injection of Cydectin (which is *supposed* to be fast, but apparently isn't) along with three days of Safe-Guard (very mild) followed immediately by a drench with 2mls of Ivomec.  

In the meantime, I was also treating with Red Cell...it's a product designed to help with anemia in horses, but seems to be very helpful in treating goats, too.

So far, he's getting better by the day.

Soooo...that's what _I_ did.  

Bear in mind also that had I realized he was whited out before I injected the Cydectin, I may not have done it..  Luckily, it didn't seem to work quite like it's said to work.  

(yay? :/ )

So, take all that for what it's worth..  If you want to apply it to your herd, be my guest -- but I'm going to stay juuuuuust on this side of the fence from actually _suggesting_ it to you.  Reason being, I don't wanna be responsible for the outcome -- I get enough of that with my own herd.

See, what you have to understand is that when they get to the point of being WHITE in the eyelids, you're in _fatal_ worm burden territory...for some, a shot of Cydectin plus three days of Safe Guard at 3x the label dose, followed by a drench of Ivomec, all accompanied by a week's worth of Red Cell may be too much, too fast, whereas for others it may be too little, too late.  

Which is to say, you're at a point where you may very well have losses here _either way you go_.


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## ksalvagno

I would still have a fecal done first. I know most people here say that adults probably don't have coccidia but I can say from experience that adults can have a large enough load of coccidia to affect them. Find out what parasites they have first and then treat appropriately. If you are worming them for barberpole worms and they have coccidia, then you are doing nothing for them. I'm not saying your problem is coccidia. What I'm trying to say is find out what parasites you are actually dealing with.


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## Speedy94c

SOUNDS LIKE THERE IS NOT AN EASY ANSWER OR FOR SURE THING TO DO. 

THANKS FOR ALL YOUR REPLYS.

STEVE


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## cmjust0

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I would still have a fecal done first.


I wouldn't.



> I know most people here say that adults probably don't have coccidia but I can say from experience that adults can have a large enough load of coccidia to affect them. Find out what parasites they have first and then treat appropriately. If you are worming them for barberpole worms and they have coccidia, then you are doing nothing for them. I'm not saying your problem is coccidia. What I'm trying to say is find out what parasites you are actually dealing with.


Occam's razor; when you hear the beating of hooves, it's probably horses -- not zebras.

1) It's mid/late July.  
2) He's got 60 head on 10 acres..  
3) They haven't had any meaningful deworming for 60 days.  
4) A few are pink or red, but most are _whited out_.  
5) Study after study that I've read finds that, upon the necropsy of worm-burdened goats, barberpoles routinely accounts for about 80% of the total burden.

*This is barberpole.*

They probably have other kinds of worms, too...who cares.  Kill the barberpoles, you'll kill them too.  That's not just me saying that, either; that's studies that basically ignore all other worms on account of them being well controlled as a consequence of trying to control barberpoles..  

The time's right.  The conditions are right.  The symptoms are right.

Screw the fecal -- TREAT FOR BARBERPOLE.

ETA:  If you're now worried that some of this might be coccidiosis, that's fine.  If your feed isn't medicated, treat the kids for coccidia with some kind of sulfa drench.  DiMethox is good.  I like the 40% injectable, but the gallon jugs are probably cheaper for that many head in the long run.  Dosage is about 25mg of dimethox per pound of goat, 1x/day for 5 days.  Repeat treatment in about 3wks.  Gallon jugs are 125mg/ml and the 40% injectable is 400mg/ml...you can do the rest of the math easily enough.

If your grain is medicated..._which it probably is_...I doubt any of this has anything to do with coccidiosis, save perhaps for the errant kid or two who get it despite being on medicated feed.  It happens.

So, there ya go...

But seriously...TREAT NOW for barberpole.


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## ksalvagno

How does doing a fecal hurt anything? Why not find out what you have. If you have a vet that is good at doing fecals, you find out the same day what you have. If they send it out, you usually find out within a few days.

If you want to start treating for barberpole go ahead but I would still have a fecal done before you treat and find out. Sometimes you can be surprised with what you have. It may be the typical thing but it doesn't hurt to find out for sure.

Get some red cell into them like CM said.

I had a case this spring with my alpacas. Typical coccidia time of year. I treated for coccidia but still had loose stool. Turned out to be strongyle. So, even though it was the typical time in my area for coccidia and that would have been everyone's guess as to my problem, it turned out that strongyle was my problem. Treated with appropriate wormer and problem solved.

I'm not saying barberpole isn't your problem. It may very well be. I'm just saying to find out for sure.


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## Speedy94c

I WENT TO THE CO-OP AT LUNCH AND GOT THE STUFF TO DRENCH THEM THIS EVENING. I ALREADY HAVE IVERMEC SO THAT IS WHAT IM GOING TO DO. I DONT HAVE A VET THAT WILL DO FECALS AROUND HERE THAT I KNOW OF. NOT A GOOD GOAT VET HERE ALL SEEM TO JUST DO DOGS AND CATS.  WHERE CAN YOU SEND IT OFF TO GET DONE AND WHAT SHOULD THE COST BE?
THANKS AGAIN 
STEVE


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## cmjust0

ksal said:
			
		

> How does doing a fecal hurt anything? Why not find out what you have. If you have a vet that is good at doing fecals, you find out the same day what you have. If they send it out, you usually find out within a few days.


Ya know I love ya, but I really think you're SERIOUSLY underestimating the gravity of the situation here.  

:/



			
				ksal said:
			
		

> had a case this spring with my alpacas. Typical coccidia time of year. I treated for coccidia but still had loose stool. Turned out to be strongyle. So, even though it was the typical time in my area for coccidia and that would have been everyone's guess as to my problem, it turned out that strongyle was my problem. Treated with appropriate wormer and problem solved.


So, I have a question....

Why did you treat for coccidia when you knew you actually had strongyloides?

That doesn't make any sense.  

(btw...answer carefully, because when you tell me you treated based on the season and clinical symptoms without first running a fecal, I'm going to ride you incessantly _from this point forward_ every..single..time you suggest someone else run a fecal while _their_ animals are in crisis.)

     



			
				speedy said:
			
		

> I DONT HAVE A VET THAT WILL DO FECALS AROUND HERE THAT I KNOW OF. NOT A GOOD GOAT VET HERE ALL SEEM TO JUST DO DOGS AND CATS.  WHERE CAN YOU SEND IT OFF TO GET DONE AND WHAT SHOULD THE COST BE?


Excellent question, speedy.

Ksal?  Where can Speedy send his bags of poop, and how much will it cost?  And when can he expect them back?


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## cmjust0

Speedy94c said:
			
		

> I WENT TO THE CO-OP AT LUNCH AND GOT THE STUFF TO DRENCH THEM THIS EVENING. I ALREADY HAVE IVERMEC SO THAT IS WHAT IM GOING TO DO.


You already have the ivermectin, so what "stuff" did you get?  Another additional dewormer?  A drench gun?  Syringes?

I'm a little confuzled.


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## ksalvagno

Actually, I didn't know they had strongyle. I'm like everyone else who has owned livestock for a while, since it was early spring and coccidia is the typical culprit, I treated for coccidia. When the loose stool didn't go away, then I had a fecal done. The fecal showed strongyle.

I actually have been running fecals on the goats since I don't know their patterns yet. So there! 

I don't know where you live but in Ohio, we can send them to state lab. They actually do an excellent job on fecals. You get the results back in a few days. Cost is about $40 per fecal. You could call your state lab or see if there is a vet lab in your area that runs fecals and find out cost from them.

My one vet does run fecals and they run about $20 per sample. One of these days I will start doing my own. But for now I just pay it.

I suggest fecals a lot because so many people  on here are new to goats. Then you can find out what is on your own property and learn the patterns of those parasites as to when they tend to rear their ugly heads and then you can treat on your own once you figure that out. May be expensive initially but you sure do learn a lot. Getting on the computer and asking for suggestions is fine and can be very helpful but no one is physically standing on your particular land and no one knows which parasites are typical for your particular land. What is typical on my property may not even be typical for someone a few miles away from me.


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## cmjust0

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Actually, I didn't know they had strongyle. I'm like everyone else who has owned livestock for a while, since it was early spring and coccidia is the typical culprit, I treated for coccidia.


Ok, well, prepare to be ridden incessantly for not practisething what thou preachesetheses.  



(oh, alright...I'll let it slide -- THIS TIME.   )



> When the loose stool didn't go away, then I had a fecal done. The fecal showed strongyle.


See, to me, that's logical; pick the low hanging fruit first...if that's not enough, _then_ you go get a ladder.

I actually had a fecal run at the vet's office..._once_.  The vet tech came back and said she found 'hookworm eggs and coccidia'...and then proceeded to tell me that my goats were dying of coccidiosis.

:/

The actual DVM laid the smackdown on her pretty much immediately.  Basically said she didn't know what she was talking about on the hookworm thing, and that he didn't either.  Pretty much, he said it would take a parasitologist to really nail it all down...and he's not a parasitologist (...this is about when she walks away...  )  

And he blew the coccidiosis diagnosis off immediately, based on the fact that they were fat, slick, healthy adults on deccox-medicated grain.

Aaaaaaaand then he promptly agreed with my suspicion that it was probably bacterial and gave me Naxcel -- without so much as laying a hand on the actual goat herself.

Too little, too late...she still died.  

Anyway...



> I actually have been running fecals on the goats since I don't know their patterns yet. So there!


I do...know the patterns, that is.

The patterns of the ones that matter, anyway.  Or, rather, the ONE that matters most -- barberpole.  

And trust me when I tell you that this is primetime barberpole season.

So _there!_ 



> I don't know where you live but in Ohio, we can send them to state lab. They actually do an excellent job on fecals. You get the results back in a few days. Cost is about $40 per fecal. You could call your state lab or see if there is a vet lab in your area that runs fecals and find out cost from them.


$40 x 60...$2400?  



> My one vet does run fecals and they run about $20 per sample. One of these days I will start doing my own. But for now I just pay it.


That's cheap..

I think I paid like $35 for the coccidiosis/hookworm diagnosis that was dead wrong and proved to be of ZERO diagnostic value.

FWIW....I actually took another sample in to the university disease and diagnostic laboratory and had it cultured for pathogenic bacteria after the vets drew a blank.

It was clean, according to them.

Yet...a few ml's of oral spectinomycin -- literally pennies worth of Scour Halt -- saved several more that eventually came down with the same illness.

:/



> I suggest fecals a lot because so many people  on here are new to goats. Then you can find out what is on your own property and learn the patterns of those parasites as to when they tend to rear their ugly heads and then you can treat on your own once you figure that out. May be expensive initially but you sure do learn a lot. Getting on the computer and asking for suggestions is fine and can be very helpful but no one is physically standing on your particular land and no one knows which parasites are typical for your particular land. What is typical on my property may not even be typical for someone a few miles away from me.


Barberpole worms are on everyone's land -- even yours.  That guy a few miles from you?...he has them on his land, too, if he has goats.  If you have goats, you have barberpole.  They're like potato bugs...they come with the potato.  

And the pattern is "dog days of summer," pretty much.  


In all seriousness...barberpoles are very, very serious.  Like, deadly serious.  When a goat goes white, you're out of time to ponder and consider and run tests.  You gotta do something, _right now._  It only takes a few dozen worms to bleed a goat of up to 50ml/day, and when it gets to the point where they don't have enough iron and other...blood building stuff (that's totally the proper scientific term -- look it up)...in reserve to make more blood, they spiral out and can die in a heartbeat.

In severe cases -- like full-blown hyperacute haemonchosis -- the goat can be drained of up to 500ml/day.  

So, needless to say, barberpole aren't to be trifled with.


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## Speedy94c

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Speedy94c said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I WENT TO THE CO-OP AT LUNCH AND GOT THE STUFF TO DRENCH THEM THIS EVENING. I ALREADY HAVE IVERMEC SO THAT IS WHAT IM GOING TO DO.
> 
> 
> 
> You already have the ivermectin, so what "stuff" did you get?  Another additional dewormer?  A drench gun?  Syringes?
> 
> I'm a little confuzled.
Click to expand...

A good drench gun and syringes.

When I got home most of the ones I checked had good looking pink eyelids. I did have a few that were light and a couple that where white. I dosed them with the ivermectin and hope for the best. I will be putting them all in the barn this weekend and check them all one at a time and do what I think needs to be done. I just didnt have the time and my barn isnt set up yet, but this weekend ill get the barn done and be ready. 
The one small goat that I was so worried about had already expiered when I got home so I was too late for him. Hopefully 
I got the rest in time.
Thanks again for all you guys help.
Steve


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## Hillsvale

so what dosage of injectible ivomac is every one using orally becuase I have gotten so many different amounts its insane! Same with the sheep dosage...


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## Livinwright Farm

Have your vet run a fecal, and get some RedCell into the pale ones.


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## cmjust0

Ivomec is very safe to use on mammals, and when given orally to goats, so little of it actually gets into their bloodstream that I personally believe it would be *really, really* difficult (read that, virtually impossible) to overdose one.  And I say that having once 'accidentally' *injected* a goat with about 5-6x the label dosage, _all _of which went straight into the bloodstream.  No harm done.  Well, except to the mites, which were **OBLITERATED**.  

What I'm getting at is that you can pretty much give as much as it takes (and/or as much as you can afford to use) in order to get the job done.  Within reason, of course.  If you're not in dire straights, you might consider starting at about 3ml/100lbs and move upward from there.  I've dumped entire 6ml syringes of injectable ivomec into stubborn kids before, which easily translates to 1ml/10lbs.


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## elevan

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> so what dosage of injectible ivomac is every one using orally becuase I have gotten so many different amounts its insane! Same with the sheep dosage...


I use it orally at a rate of 1ml / 25#


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## honeyb12

Now someone told me never to use Ivomec orally because it can make them bleed internally..God Im sooo frikin confused on what to give and how to give it..even after reading the info on here regarding worming..Some one told me also that cydectin is the best thing to use where we live (which is in Fl). All I ever see is the pour on..can u give that SQ or orally and if so how much and how often. Please tell me what wormers I need to have on hand and what the schedule is for worming them. I have also seen wormers in the form of pellets. How effective are these or are they a waste of money? There are so many things to choose from its overwhelming to say the least. I just want a scheduled worming routine..is there a such thing?


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## Hillsvale

elevan said:
			
		

> Hillsvale said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so what dosage of injectible ivomac is every one using orally becuase I have gotten so many different amounts its insane! Same with the sheep dosage...
> 
> 
> 
> I use it orally at a rate of 1ml / 25#
Click to expand...

for both goats and sheep?....


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## elevan

honeyb12 said:
			
		

> Now someone told me never to use Ivomec orally because it can make them bleed internally..God Im sooo frikin confused on what to give and how to give it..even after reading the info on here regarding worming..Some one told me also that cydectin is the best thing to use where we live (which is in Fl). All I ever see is the pour on..can u give that SQ or orally and if so how much and how often. Please tell me what wormers I need to have on hand and what the schedule is for worming them. I have also seen wormers in the form of pellets. How effective are these or are they a waste of money? There are so many things to choose from its overwhelming to say the least. I just want a scheduled worming routine..is there a such thing?


Do not give a pour on SQ...it's not sterile.

Cydectin is currently the best dewormer available in the US.  Caution should be used that it doesn't get overused and end up with the same problems with resistance that the other drugs do.

Scheduled deworming is a bad idea as it is what has helped create the problems we have with drug resistant worms.  That and underdosing.

Read more about deworming here:  http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt

Deworming should be done as needed and not on a schedule.

Pelleted dewormers are worthless imo.  A complete waste of money and time.

As to Ivomec given orally and causing internal bleeding?  I suspect that someone had a goat with a very heavy wormload and gave them enough Ivomec to dump the entire load at once...which can cause internal bleeding.  But it's not the dewormer that's the problem in that case it's the method.

Here on my farm we keep on hand:  Ivomec, Safeguard and Valbazen.  Others are easily purchased if needed.


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## elevan

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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> Hillsvale said:
> 
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> so what dosage of injectible ivomac is every one using orally becuase I have gotten so many different amounts its insane! Same with the sheep dosage...
> 
> 
> 
> I use it orally at a rate of 1ml / 25#
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> for both goats and sheep?....
Click to expand...

I don't have sheep


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## Hillsvale

elevan said:
			
		

> Hillsvale said:
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> elevan said:
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> I use it orally at a rate of 1ml / 25#
> 
> 
> 
> for both goats and sheep?....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't have sheep
Click to expand...

too bad... they taste great!


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## elevan

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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> Hillsvale said:
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> for both goats and sheep?....
> 
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> I don't have sheep
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> too bad... they taste great!
Click to expand...

My one and only experience with eating them, I didn't like it.  But I'll withhold judgement until I try 2 more times.


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## honeyb12

what would be the dosage for cydectin..and basically are we saying to treat symptomatically? How do u know if its worm infestation or mineral deficiency..some of the symptoms seem similar in comparison.


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## honeyb12

also if i were to use the cydectin orally..could I use the paste wormer (Quest) and if so what's the dosage?


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## elevan

honeyb12 said:
			
		

> what would be the dosage for cydectin..and basically are we saying to treat symptomatically? How do u know if its worm infestation or mineral deficiency..some of the symptoms seem similar in comparison.


Yes, treat symptomatically or when a fecal shows a worm load that needs treated.

Many use Cydectin at the same rate as Ivomec (they are in the same chemical family).

True that many symptoms of worms and deficiencies can be similar.  I would suggest having fecals done until you're more familiar with your goats.  And even then you need to do fecals as needed.  Often a goat that is deficient in minerals is more susceptible to worms...so the 2 will at times go hand in hand.




> also if i were to use the cydectin orally..could I use the paste wormer (Quest) and if so what's the dosage?


I've never used Quest.


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## cmjust0

elevan said:
			
		

> Cydectin is currently the best dewormer available in the US.  Caution should be used that it doesn't get overused and end up with the same problems with resistance that the other drugs do.


I personally don't think Cydectin's all that much better than anything else at this point..  Barberpole worms seem to have already developed a fierce resistance to it, just as they've developed resistance to everything else.  The SCSRPC (now the ACSRPC, with 'A' being 'American' -- they've expanded past just being a 'Southern' organization) couldn't even do a study on whether oral or injected Cydectin worked best because they couldn't find a farm with moxidectin-susceptible worms to test on.  I believe the words they used to describe Cydectin were that it was "on its last legs."  

And that was like 3-4 years ago.




			
				elevan said:
			
		

> As to Ivomec given orally and causing internal bleeding?  I suspect that someone had a goat with a very heavy wormload and gave them enough Ivomec to dump the entire load at once...which can cause internal bleeding.


x2


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## sunny

It's been my understanding that Moxidectin only kills the first 3 larval stages of Barber Pole and the Ivermectin kills the fourth adult stage when arrested for the winter. Worming with this in mind I seem to have good results. If your goats are coming out of the winter with living aduts to become active and start laying eggs, you'll be able to knock down the population of larval stages but, nothing will kill those egg laying adults until they arrest again the next winter.
 I also have to deal with liver flukes which can be nasty and make for very sick goats with no evidence from fecal and no symptoms until they are going down at times. If you have deer and slugs or land snails, you also have liver fluke IMO. With this in mind I do Ivo-plus on my 100 day bred does and it seems to help keep populations of both parasites lower.

The dosage for Quest that I use is: 1cc per 100lbs. always going a little over if they're a weird weight. If you weigh 92 lbs. here you're getting the full cc.
There have been reports of mini horses ODing from the drug not being properly mixed in the tube so I squirt it into a bowl and stir it up before putting it into a syringe for dosing.


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## cmjust0

sunny said:
			
		

> It's been my understanding that Moxidectin only kills the first 3 larval stages of Barber Pole and the Ivermectin kills the fourth adult stage when arrested for the winter.


Dormant worms aren't adults yet.  The L3's (1 stage shy of adult) go into dormancy (hypobiosis, to be technically accurate  ) and just kinda hang out over the winter as larvae, not really doing much.  When they get the green light* that it's OK to start laying eggs, they molt again into L4 adults.  I don't know of any dewormers which do not target L4's, but there are some which won't kill anything _less_ than an L4.  Some, however, are designed to kill all stages, and my understanding is that both Ivermectin and Moxidectin fall into that category.  If you read the label for Cydectin, it mentions 'adult and immature' stages for haemonchus contortus...aka, barberpole.



> Worming with this in mind I seem to have good results. If your goats are coming out of the winter with living aduts to become active and start laying eggs, you'll be able to knock down the population of larval stages but, nothing will kill those egg laying adults until they arrest again the next winter.


That's a really good strategy to employ, but perhaps not for the reasons you're employing it.  If you deworm heavily in the early spring, what you're actually doing are killing the earliest adults and some of the L3's, which effectively 'front loads' your deworming schedule for the year.  Let's say you kill 10 (totally arbitrary number) of the very first worms of the season..  Those 10 could potentially have laid 5,000 eggs/day for about 3wks.  That's literally 1-million eggs you just took out.  Assuming even a 0.5% egg survival/re-infestation rate, you just effectively eliminated 5,000 worms out of generation 2, which would have been sucking blood and laying 100,000 eggs a piece in a few short weeks.  You could keep doing the math until you figured generations all the way through, say, late September, and your numbers would be astounding....which is most likely why you're having success with this strategy.

Like I said, it's a very good one, in my opinion.  The best one we have available to us right now, so far as I'm concerned..

Down the road, I think what's going to happen is that someone, somewhere, is going to find something that effects an extremely high kill rate on these little b*stards as L3 dormant larvae, and it's going to be something we do mid-winter to effectively *RID* our goats of these things once a year...and not really have to worry about them after that.  Oh, what a day that will be. 

But until then, your strategy is -- again, in my opinion -- spot on perfect as the very best that we can do at the moment.


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## treeclimber233

Does everyone think pelleted wormers are a waste of money???


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## Roll farms

Only way to KNOW would be to have an FEC ran, deworm w/ the pellets at the correct dosage, and then have another FEC ran.

*I* personally don't bother w/ them b/c I don't have time to hand feed 40 or so goats their correct dosage.


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## 20kidsonhill

treeclimber233 said:
			
		

> Does everyone think pelleted wormers are a waste of money???


I do


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## sunny

The only misconception being that my goats are 100 days pregnant in January and Febuary to kid in March and April. So this is their mid-winter worming.

 Not to argue (too much) but the L4 is the blood sucking young adult and the L5 stage is the egg laying adults that they turn into. L4 is the stage that causes the most damage to the host and hibernates in the stomach wall. At least that is what I was taught. Ivermectin is still killing a lot of these arrested worms here. Cydectin never did work well on that form for me.

.  So, let's find this miracle wormer, I really could use the money    While we're at it let's find something, easy to apply, that kills eggs, larvae, and cocci in the pens with out being poisonous to the goats and sheep, killing beneficial insects. or creating resistance.


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## treeclimber233

If I have fed Pelleted wormer how long should I wait to worm with Quest.


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## sunny

Which pellet wormer did you use? I can look up the drug interaction for you.


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## that's*satyrical

I have heard diatomaceous earth is good to sprinkle in the pen. I do it in their bedding & high traffic areas. I also sprinkle it on them externally about once a month. They still will get fecals & wormed when they need it. They were all wormed recently when they came to me (Ivermec) but I will be having the vet out at some point soon & running fecals on everyone. We are taking baby steps I just now got all their hooves looking pretty good & they all are up to date on their CD&T & baby has gotten her cocci preventative. I probably will have the vet out in January after the Christmas bill is taken care of lol. I'll also be sending in my goaties' bloodwork then I assume.


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## treeclimber233

the pellet wormer I used is called Positive Pellet by Manna Pro.  Says it is Goat Wormer  medicated and has supplimental copper.  Active ingredient is partially hidden in a crease and partly cut off.  What I can see is ....rantel tartrate.   Instructions say feed once a month.


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## Roll farms

The active ingredient in that is Morantel Tartrate.


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## cmjust0

sunny said:
			
		

> The only misconception being that my goats are 100 days pregnant in January and Febuary to kid in March and April. So this is their mid-winter worming.


Why would that be a problem with regard to deworming?  Im aware that *some* dewormers cause abortion, but not all.  Or maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here...?



> Not to argue (too much) but the L4 is the blood sucking young adult and the L5 stage is the egg laying adults that they turn into. L4 is the stage that causes the most damage to the host and hibernates in the stomach wall. At least that is what I was taught.


Yeah, you're right about them molting from L4's on into L5's -- but it's definitely L3's that go into hypobiosis..      But yes, when they come out of hypobiosis, they actually do molt _twice_ more, not once as I said previously.  That's my bad. 



> So, let's find this miracle wormer, I really could use the money


I've actually already found one that I think would be really close to "miracle" level, but it's a bit dangerous and it's not supposed to be available in the US..  Let me stress that -- it's not _supposed_ to be..    The fact that it's not technically available here, and therefore hasn't been exposed to "our" barberpoles, and that it's reallysupergood at killing dormant barberpoles is why I think it could be darn near miraculous as a mid-winter dewormer here in the USA..  I've been saying I was gonna try it for the past two winters, but I don't have the money for a livestock scale nor the nerve to do it without one..  I'll eyeball weights for almost any med, but when one of the O/D side-effects is BLINDNESS...yeah, even I'm not that crazy.


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## cmjust0

Morantel and Pyrantel are nicotinic agonists, just like Levasole, and Levasole's pretty good stuff..  I suspect they must have worked _at some point_, and -- like Levasole -- they may have been neglected long enough to work again..  Now, why they -- Morantel, specifically -- are relegated mostly to pelleted feed, I don't know, but I *suspect* that they're probably the two most underutilized commonly available dewormers out there.  I've never seen recommendations on 'hyper-dosing' like we have with other dewormers (1ml/25lbs with Ivomec, for instance, versus the label dosage of 1ml/110lbs) though the margin of safety is supposed to be really high..  Makes me wonder if you could find it in drench form and give A LOT of it, if it might just work..

I'd like to see a study on these two dewormers, but with a drench, and at about 4x the label dose to start..  They might very well turn out to be something we could use.


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## sunny

Morantel Tarrate=tetrahydropyrimidine

 Morantel is promply motabilised, peak activity is 4 to 6 hours after dosing and it leaves the body with in 96 hours.
 It interacts with Pyrantel, Levamisole, and Piperazine.

 So, in 8 days it's gone. Just to be safe you should be good to go with Quest at 10 days after treatment.


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## sunny

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> That's a really good strategy to employ, but perhaps not for the reasons you're employing it.  If you deworm heavily in the early spring, what you're actually doing are killing the earliest adults and some of the L3's, which effectively 'front loads' your deworming schedule for the year.


I'm just saying that this isn't quite what's happening. The Ivermectin is getting the arrested worms in the winter whether they be stage T5 or Z27  BUT, I've always been extremly careful with Ivermectin trying not to create resistance.
 The Valbanzen that they are given early spring for liver fluke may be killing the adults and doing what you're saying. 
 The fact that they are never put out on wet grass helps also. The larve can't crawl up dry grass as well.

 It might all come to naught soon anyway. My neighbor just turned a small herd of the skinniest most pitiful goats loose right across my back fence. You can look at them and see the cocci and stuff oozing out practically. If he's not being careful or just not bothering to worm, his parasites may find their way to my yard. Luckily the creek flows from my place to his, that will help.


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## Roll farms

I'd be tempted to lay a strip of 7 granules along the property line....


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## cmjust0

sunny said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's a really good strategy to employ, but perhaps not for the reasons you're employing it.  If you deworm heavily in the early spring, what you're actually doing are killing the earliest adults and some of the L3's, which effectively 'front loads' your deworming schedule for the year.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just saying that this isn't quite what's happening. The Ivermectin is getting the arrested worms in the winter whether they be stage T5 or Z27  BUT, I've always been extremly careful with Ivermectin trying not to create resistance.
> The Valbanzen that they are given early spring for liver fluke may be killing the adults and doing what you're saying.
> The fact that they are never put out on wet grass helps also. The larve can't crawl up dry grass as well.
Click to expand...

If you're lucky enough to still have ivermectin-susceptible worms on your place, then yep, you're killing a lot of hypobiotic worms if you're deworming post-hypobiosis.  Which, for many of us is happening right about now.  Like I said, it's a really good strategy, and I'm encouraged to hear that it's working for you.  I've heard from some others who worm really early in the Spring that they don't have the kind of worm problems many other folks see..  I wish the "experts" (as in, universities and county extension agents, etc) would recommend it to more people.

As far as wet grass..  ..we used to have a member here who would give out all kinds of deworming advice to folks based on her deworming strategies, despite the fact thta her goats were dry-lotted.  I made the point one day that goats on a dry-lot really shouldn't have *any* barberpole worms since grass is an integral part of a barberpole's life cycle, but of course, I was told that was just wrong wrong wrong..  



> It might all come to naught soon anyway. My neighbor just turned a small herd of the skinniest most pitiful goats loose right across my back fence. You can look at them and see the cocci and stuff oozing out practically. If he's not being careful or just not bothering to worm, his parasites may find their way to my yard. Luckily the creek flows from my place to his, that will help.


Unless they poo across the fence, I wouldn't think you'd have much to worry about..  Goat berries roll, tho. :/  I'd be more concerned about them sniffing noses through the fence..


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