# Xerocles rabbit thread



## Xerocles

I like titles that are "catchy" but I can tell already that this is gonna be a long, exciting (for me at least) adventure. So I thought I'd make the title simple and easy to remember.
IT HAS STARTED!
Any of you who know me, remember I've been saying for weeks and weeks that my goal for having my rabbitry ready to receive rabbits is mid-December. Today is December 10, 2019, and I consider it GOAL MET! Technically, not quite. Still need to connect a few pieces of chain to the grow-out cages and would have that done if I hadn't forgot to pick up chain while running errands today. Tomorrow, probably. Even though it means an extra trip to town.
Pictures to follow. Just want to have those chains on before I show. Oh, there is a sneak preview under the thread "why didn't you guys warn me" if you just HAVE to see pictures now.
Anyway.  Preview of coming attractions. Pictures, of course. I actually have rabbits already. It's Tuesday. I got them Sunday. Swore I wasnt going to name them, but two have already been named....kinda named themselves. Going from hell to heaven. Breeding through the wire? Stewed rabbit, anyone? Guess I won't have rabbit poop for the garden after all.
Stay tuned. See you tomorrow.


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## Baymule

What? That's all? No breed, no color, no age, no nothing?


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## Xerocles

Well. I wish I could say all finished, but I'm never "all finished" with things. Still need to install fencing around, don't have water/food containers in the grow-out cages (but won't need them for a coupla months.) Let's just say I'm finished enough to start.
So, on to some pictures.





Front view. Don't know why it appears to go "up" at each end. The level says it's level.



Grow-out cages. 18" tall, 7 ft long, divided into 3 sections each, with doors between for full use or segregation if needed. (And what appears to be something inside is excess roofing on the ground behind.



The "grown-ups table". 24" tall, 1@36", 2@42"



End view, showing the double row of cages with walkway between. And that rusty yellow thing is an old flail mower which was supposed to be grabbed by a neighbor 3 weeks ago.



Close-up of the buck's cage.
Whew, this picture thing is time consuming. Taking a short break. Will return shortly with some pics of the bunnies, for impatient people like @Baymule 
Oh, it is hard to see in the first picture but there is a 3 ft gap between the growout cages and the breeders cages, to allow passage right now, but reserved for future expansion.


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## Xerocles

Potty break is over. Back to more pictures.
"




"Salvador" (see if you can figure out why that name. Tell you later.) Californian, buck, 18 months old.




No name. But calling her "Hunny Bunny" for now 'cause she appears to be a real sweety. New Zealand Red broken. Doe, 6 months in 4 days.




"Cruella" (pretty obvious on the name, but I'll tell you later. Stewed rabbit anyone?) Californian, doe, 18 mos. The bowl is because she hasn't figured out her water bottle yet. Its different than the type she had at her old home.

So. Enough pics for now. The stories start tomorrow.


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## promiseacres

I have discovered that rabbits that don't do well with a water bottle can have teeth issues (you can't see their molars...) Not always, but something to watch. Especially if you keep any of her offspring.


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## Xerocles

promiseacres said:


> I have discovered that rabbits that don't do well with a water bottle can have teeth issues (you can't see their molars...) Not always, but something to watch. Especially if you keep any of her offspring.


?don't know. She used a ball bearing bottle until Sunday. Her bottle here is a needle type.  And, trust me, I don't have a prayer of examining her teeth unless I do it while they're inside my hand. See her name and the reference to stewed rabbit.


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## promiseacres

Xerocles said:


> ?don't know. She used a ball bearing bottle until Sunday. Her bottle here is a needle type.  And, trust me, I don't have a prayer of examining her teeth unless I do it while they're inside my hand. See her name and the reference to stewed rabbit.


We use ball bearing too, so probably just the change.  Even if she was nice you would probably have issues seeing her molars. This past Spring I had a new buck who refused a water bottle, then 3 of his 4 kits had bad teeth . I actually culled him before I discovered the bad teeth on the kits due to a chronic unresponsive snot nose. Looking back I am betting it was his molars.


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## Xerocles

promiseacres said:


> We use ball bearing too, so probably just the change.  Even if she was nice you would probably have issues seeing her molars. This past Spring I had a new buck who refused a water bottle, then 3 of his 4 kits had bad teeth . I actually culled him before I discovered the bad teeth on the kits due to a chronic unresponsive snot nose. Looking back I am betting it was his molars.


I'm trying to learn here. When you say "bad teeth", could you elaborate a bit on that? What was going on with the teeth?


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## Baymule

Nice bunnies. Californians and NZ are good meat rabbits. Do you know any good rabbit recipes?


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## promiseacres

Xerocles said:


> I'm trying to learn here. When you say "bad teeth", could you elaborate a bit on that? What was going on with the teeth?


Rabbits should have an overbite. Any misalignment with their incisors is not good. They could have an under bite, or teeth that don't meet and curl to a side. Google "maloclussion in rabbits". They won't grow well if they have any issues. Obviously they can still be eaten as long as they can get some nutrients.


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## Baymule

promiseacres said:


> Rabbits should have an overbite. Any misalignment with their incisors is not good. They could have an under bite, or teeth that don't meet and curl to a side. Google "maloclussion in rabbits". They won't grow well if they have any issues. Obviously they can still be eaten as long as they can get some nutrients.


Ever have to cut their front teeth to even them up? Crunch.


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## Xerocles

Ok. I see whats going on. You guys are trying to scare the new guy. Maloclussions and tooth trimming. It's working. What's the best method of calming the rabbit to accept such ministrations? Probably a quick rap to the base of the skull?
And @promiseacres. You said something about molars. What do incisors have to do with molars?
@Baymule no recipes yet (gosh thats MONTHS away....unless Cruella refuses to change her ways.) All I know so far is low and slow, with a sauce and covered.


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## promiseacres

Not trying to scare you just something to watch for. You can only see the incisors, bad molars you won't know until there's offspring or problems in the bunnies health. You should not have to trim teeth unless there's a problem.


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## Xerocles

DISCLAIMER: what I am about to write may sound like I am upset or disappointed with the deal I made. I'm not.
I hope the guy I bought my rabbits from is not a member of BYH. I haven't seen anyone else from SC on here, so maybe I'm safe. If not, I'm about to pi$$ somebody off. Well, if the truth hurts, maybe you should change the truth.
Got to his farm. Nice respectful largish, well maintained acreage with several pretty respectable outbuildings. And he invited me to drive behind the house to the rabbitry. Aghast! 
Now I am of the mindset of "if its not broke, don't fix it" and I suppose his cages kept his rabbits inside. But what a mishmash of ancient, dilapidated, amaturish looking collection of cages. I made better looking hutches, alone and without help, when I was 9 years old. He had maybe 50 or 60 hutches.
I suppose if I had the experience of many of you (or I already had rabbits) I would have thanked him for his time and trudged back home at this point. But I suffered from the newby affliction of "I got empty cages, and I don't have experience and I want a rabbit NOW!
I went for advertised NZ red does, 6mo, solid and broken, registered. $25. I only wanted one, preferrably solid. He told me, via phonecall, he only had two left, both broken.
I asked, since 6 mos is prime breeding age and I don't have a buck, how much would he charge me to have her serviced. No charge, but no promises. Fair enough.(later he told me no luck on the breeding).
He showed me the does, both to my unexperienced eye, well put together, blocky, rounded, alert, with big backends. Meat rabbits. I still hold to this assessment, but will admit my ignorance on this, and an experienced eye might tell me I have culls.
Anyhow, back to housing. We made conversation, a quite congenial young man, while I looked around, assaying the environment and asking all pertinent questions I knew to ask. He was relaxed, ready with answers, and seemed honest and sincere. Yes, his rabbits were full time caged, no "ground time". Had been doing this since a teenager (late 20s/early 30s now). Only diseases he had ever had and had to treat for was ear mites. No coccidosis ever. Shared that he did no showing, and very little in the pet market, but dealt with mostly one or two "processors" and one had recently passed. Only time he had major losses was a couple years ago when we had two weeks of temps above 100f (I remember that year). Said he lost a lot. His information was straightforward.
The cages. Small. Only about 24" wide. Would have pushed to be 16" tall. Barely enough room for these meat rabbits to turn around. Wire bottoms, many were 1X1 wire. No resting pads. No sign of hay or hay racks (" we just throw it on top of the cages"). But again, none visible. This was noontime.
Each cage did have a tag attached with pertinent info; breed, sex, age, some codes I didn't decipher.
Now I have been accused of being somewhat callous about animals and their place in the scheme of things. And, giving credit where credit is due, I think this guy was honest and aboveboard, but even more callous than I. Meat is meat. You raise it. You eat it. You don't pamper it.
Anyhow, to the deal. I know this is long and likely boring.
We had not agreed on a deal. And I had casually mentioned that I was also trying to find a Californian, cause I wanted to compare growout, etc. So, he said his buyer who had passed away was a Cali buyer, cause he needed white pelts in addition to meat. He (my seller) was not fond of Cali, just liked the color of his reds, and had gotten rid of most of his Cali stock. He had one pair left and IF I bought the red doe at $25, he would sell me the pair of Calis @ $10 each. $10 for a 10 lb stewing rabbit isn't bad, even if all you do is cook it. And these were 18 month registered breeding stock. I stuck my hand out and reached in my pocket.
Now, I only brought one transport cage, which the does could go in. He found a cardboard box for the buck. Scruffed only, not even back feet support. Buck in the box. While I taped the box and placed it in the truck, he loaded the does into the carrier, so I didn't see him interact with them. That's important, and I'll tell you why, tomorrow. Your eyes are probably tired by now, anyhow.
OMG. I just looked back and this is LONG. I should have broken it down, but I don't see how.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> I'm trying to learn here. When you say "bad teeth", could you elaborate a bit on that? What was going on with the teeth?


Bad teeth means they don’t line up for the short version.  Rabbits teeth constantly grow.  They need to line up otherw they will get an abscess. We have been raising rabbits a long time.  My buck came to me with an abscess but didn’t realize it..just thought he was great looker.  We spent a ton on surgery. Because we invested so much, we didn’t want to cull him.  His kits never had that issue, luckily..but his issues have never quit.  I’ve not giving up!  I have spent sooo much money on rabbit vet bills though.  We have an expanded farm now and, unfortunately..my hubby will not allow me to spend that sort of money on my sick ducks..which I much prefer.  We do not have an avian vet close...but...anyway..this is where you need to pick and choose who you you what to invest the money on.  
also with those water bottles..I realize you are in SC and the climate is a heck of a lot better than NW PA..but, once they freeze..you’re done...I mean...it’s a pa in the waahoo.  So, I have elected to get the large dog bowls..the kind that won’t tip..and not the chinsey plastic type.  The heavy duty round plastic.  You’ll end to bang them when they freeze and they will break if they are the thin plastic..trust me.  They will tip if they are thinner at the base..trust me.  So get the sturdy kind that can handle a good bang.  My rabbits..32, New Zealands And California are in my barn, above my ducks...don’t worry there is great ventilation..but it’s much warmer and it still freezes.  Rabbits do much better in the cold than heat so don’t worry about them.  But they do love a good bunny box to jump on...maybe that’s down the road...mine are quite spoiled.
 Im so sorry for interrupting the thread, but I did want to let that important question get missed.  I can’t wait to keep reading!  Congratulations on your new bunny family!  Warning you..we thought we would eat them..we have eaten four. I mostly give them away.

oh, also..very important..read, read, read up on GI stasis and buy baby gas reliever now.  It is a silent killer and comes on in a day, with no warning..caused by stress..a loud noise even.  Rabbits are more fragile than you think..  I have lost 21 rabbits this way before I knew how to treat it.  Now I have a care kit, etc.  if you ever have questions..keep my avatar at hand..I know how to tube feed, how to sub q fluids, etc...it takes work.  I don’t mean to scare you.  But rabbit owners should have an emergency kit on hand...like most animal farmers do for every animal type.

once again..congratulations and I can’t wait to read more!


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## Baymule

Beautiful kits @Duckfarmerpa1 I raised rabbits many moons ago, I had Satins. At any one time, I had around 300 of them. My husband doesn't like rabbit meat or I would have them again. 

@Xerocles to check a rabbit for a good full butt with lots of meat, place on a table and get the rabbit to "set up". That means to set still in  a normal resting position, then run your hands over their body, over their butt and to their feet. A good body will have a full butt, a not so good will cup your hands inward, what I used to call a hatchet butt. 

No table? Make one, preferably with a slick top so they can't get traction, dig their claws in and JUMP off. Then you use a carpet sample for a pad so that they feel secure. This will come in handy when they are blowing their coat in a seasonal molt. Then you wet your hands and rub the rabbit up and down, the loose fur will come off, stick to your hands, you rub your hands together and the fur comes off. Rinse. Repeat. If you don't help clean up their fur, it can matt up and make a mess. A small torch is great for burning the fur off the cages and for disinfecting the cages. I suppose you have the good sense to remove the rabbits first. LOL


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Baymule said:


> Beautiful kits @Duckfarmerpa1 I raised rabbits many moons ago, I had Satins. At any one time, I had around 300 of them. My husband doesn't like rabbit meat or I would have them again.
> 
> @Xerocles to check a rabbit for a good full butt with lots of meat, place on a table and get the rabbit to "set up". That means to set still in  a normal resting position, then run your hands over their body, over their butt and to their feet. A good body will have a full butt, a not so good will cup your hands inward, what I used to call a hatchet butt.
> 
> No table? Make one, preferably with a slick top so they can't get traction, dig their claws in and JUMP off. Then you use a carpet sample for a pad so that they feel secure. This will come in handy when they are blowing their coat in a seasonal molt. Then you wet your hands and rub the rabbit up and down, the loose fur will come off, stick to your hands, you rub your hands together and the fur comes off. Rinse. Repeat. If you don't help clean up their fur, it can matt up and make a mess. A small torch is great for burning the fur off the cages and for disinfecting the cages. I suppose you have the good sense to remove the rabbits first. LOL


I love the info on the table..my hubby will not be ha with the news though..I’m always bugging him for something new! . And she is sooo right about the molt..but to warn you..burnt rabbit hair stinks!  Oh, thanks for the compliment on my litt ones!


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## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Im so sorry for interrupting the thread, but I did want to let that important question get missed.
> 
> Now I have a care kit, etc.  if you ever have questions..keep my avatar at hand..I know how to tube feed, how to sub q fluids, etc...it takes work.  I don’t mean to scare you.  But rabbit owners should have an emergency kit on hand...like most animal farmers do for every animal type.


Thats not an interrupting! That's the WHOLE PURPOSE of this thread. I don't know what I'm doing. I tell you guys what I AM doing and you put me on the right path. Please, keep it up. And thank you.
Any chance you might give me a more formal list for that emergency kit?
Oh, and LOVED the pictures.


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> set still in  a normal resting position, then run your hands over their body, over their butt and to their feet. A good body will have a full butt, a not so good will cup your hands inward, what I used to call a hatchet butt.


Wow. I had to stop and make sure I wasn't on my OTHER site for a minute there. Hey, maybe this is one suggestion I'll be good at; already got a modicum of experience. 
Could I use my processing table with formica top for this, or too much chance that some residual blood smell could panic them?
And when I got to the part about a small torch to burn the fur off, and before I read cages, my eyes got REALLY big. I mean, you do some things that sound pretty wild, to me. Hands up sheeps butts and cutting teeth!    
As always, thanks for your help and guidance.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Thats not an interrupting! That's the WHOLE PURPOSE of this thread. I don't know what I'm doing. I tell you guys what I AM doing and you put me on the right path. Please, keep it up. And thank you.
> Any chance you might give me a more formal list for that emergency kit?
> Oh, and LOVED the pictures.


Well, definitely the the Simethicone drops...in the baby isle..gauze, peroxide, etc. saline solution.  You need to deworm them every three months like clockwork.  Albon...it’s expensive..buy the big bottle and suck it up.  Buy kitten baby formula..there’s always going to be a kit, here or there, that needs a little help...so, with that you’ll need a little dropper..usually can ask pharmacist and they’ll give you one if you know them.  Some rabbits do well with mineral wheels, some don’t even pay them attention.  That’s just for regular health and maintenance.  Nail clippers.  It’s best..when you are first handling your new rabbits to wear long sleeves.  The more you handle them the better it is for breeding...you’ll have a more calm doe, I’ve found.  Some does will get territorial with the kits if they don’t know you as well...I’ve found.

Theres a lot more you need IF the rabbits get the GI Stasis..but I don’t want to overwhelm you..if it happens..keep my avatar..I’m always online..I don’t watch TV...and I can give you great websites.  

keep a water spray bottle solution with white vinegar...it doesn’t need to be a perfect mix...we used to measure it all out.  If they get sick you do..but for regular cleaning it can be more relaxed.  But clean the cages regularly because of germs.  We got one of those sprayers that you usually spray for weeds..works great.  Definitely spray nesting boxes.

oh, if one of them gets the sniffles...VetRx is good to use..but..be careful as the sni are contagious...but..VetRx is great for ear mites..and you do not need to run to the vet for that!  It’s so simple..the rabbit will love you after a few days because it will feel so much better!  A sign is an ear droop.  Or a lot of scratching.

The urine can be a vari of colors..so dont panic..I did.  It can be from feed change...hay difference, anything.  Even red is ok.  Every seven poops is stickier and they eat it for their digestion.  Don’t be alarmed when it looks different.  You won’t see them eat it.  

Ok, I probably went wayyy overboard and told you tons of stuff you already know.  Sorry.  But rabbits are more tricky than people realize.  Oh, when we lost some, the guy at our feed store told us not to use rain water.  I have no clue if that was an issue.  But we never used rain water again.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Wow. I had to stop and make sure I wasn't on my OTHER site for a minute there. Hey, maybe this is one suggestion I'll be good at; already got a modicum of experience.
> Could I use my processing table with formica top for this, or too much chance that some residual blood smell could panic them?
> And when I got to the part about a small torch to burn the fur off, and before I read cages, my eyes got REALLY big. I mean, you do some things that sound pretty wild, to me. Hands up sheeps butts and cutting teeth!
> As always, thanks for your help and guidance.


Hey, last week I had my finger up my goats, lady parts..you should’ve seen my hubby’s face when he walked in the barn!


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## Baymule

I used mineral oil for ear mites. A few drops a month kept the mites away. 

Yes you can use the Formica table for grooming your rabbits. Any/Everything I use to slaughter gets a Clorox bath, there should not be any residual blood on your table.


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## Baymule

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Hey, last week I had my finger up my goats, lady parts..you should’ve seen my hubby’s face when he walked in the barn!


Sheath cleaning a horse’s hanging down part is worse. LOL LOL


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## Baymule

Speaking of violating a sheep’s Butt, I’m on track for running them through the chute again tomorrow. Need to do a worm count on a few of them. While I’ve got them in there, might as well drench them all with Garlic Barrier again. 

@Duckfarmerpa1 ypu should move to Texas, we’d make great neighbors!


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## Xerocles

It's cold outside and so I'm stuck inside, so let's get back to the story. Everybody got your popcorn ready?
One thing I missed yesterday that I forgot to mention. Since we live only about 25 miles apart, we have very similar weather patterns. He uses water bottles for watering. I asked what he does about frozen water bottles.  He said....don't have many days where it stays below freezing all day...... They.....usually......thaw out by mid morning.... 
Only had a few tubes to burst from frozen water!
Baymule would drive all the way from Tx to kick my butt if I said something like that!
So, anyhow, I'm home with the rabbits. Started with the buck. Scruffed just enough to get his front feet up, then hand under the chest and other hand under the butt...with fingers between and around back feet to stop any kicking. Then into a "hug" on my left forearm with head at the crook of my elbow. Just went into great detail there so you guys know ive learned SOMETHING.
I looked like a freakin professional and everything went beautifully. Eased him butt first into a SPARE doe cage on the back of the run because I wanted to put a spreader bar on his cage (buck cage vs doe cage. Doe cage has baby saver wire). Done, and done. Proud of myself. Then the does. Red first. Kinda skittish, (after all, a lot was happening in her world) but I caught her in a corner, trapped her down, and carbon copy of buck. Into her cage and all is well.
Then Cruella, Cali doe. Transport cage was about 16" X 20". It was like trying to catch the Tasmanian Devil. Finally trapped in a corner. Light scruff, left hand under chest, and it was like trying to hold a....well...Tasmanian Devil. Finally gave up, scruffed her with hand under back feet, and on to her cage. 
I had already decided to give them a week, routine feeding and watering only, with observation, to allow them to settle into the new environment.
One of my previews mentioned "hell to heaven". Here it was. HUGE cages compared to what they had before. They used a large portion of that first afternoon on their hind feet. Oh to be able to stretch up to full length! And rest pads to get their feet off the wire. Several minutes before they discovered this. Food and water of course, but also hay.  I was a little suspicious, because they nibbled some pellets, sniffed the hay and turned away. This guy didn't keep them supplied with hay. I KNEW it!  So, stressful day, what the heck, a small treat. One carrot stick, each. Through the wire, no interaction yet. They ignored the carrot sticks. Still in their cages the next morning.
I spent a couple hours near them, training Nyx, the dog, that they were new family members and not to be messed with. She caught on pretty quick with only a few verbal corrections, that she could look, but not touch. She is fascinated by them, and so far, minding her manners quite nicely. I also putzed around the shed with little things so they could see me and learn I was not an immediate threat.
Dusk came on. Final check of food and water. Nyx got to sleep inside because, why take a chance.
And tomorrows another day. Nite-nite kiddies.


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## Xerocles

@Duckfarmerpa1 and @Baymule 
You guys KNOW you're pretty disgusting, right?
And you revel in it. Thanks ladies, I appreciate you.
Oh, and ducks. About your emergency kit. I realize I'm asking a lot of your time, but you don't teach someone to walk by saying just put one foot in front of the other. Much of that kit went right over my head. I know simethicone. I used gallons of it for my daughter.  Now there's a long and interesting story. But when, and to whom, do you give it, and what are the signs that its called for? Surely not because they scream nonstop and sleep less than 2 hours in a row for 4 weeks?


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> DISCLAIMER: what I am about to write may sound like I am upset or disappointed with the deal I made. I'm not.
> I hope the guy I bought my rabbits from is not a member of BYH. I haven't seen anyone else from SC on here, so maybe I'm safe. If not, I'm about to pi$$ somebody off. Well, if the truth hurts, maybe you should change the truth.
> Got to his farm. Nice respectful largish, well maintained acreage with several pretty respectable outbuildings. And he invited me to drive behind the house to the rabbitry. Aghast!
> Now I am of the mindset of "if its not broke, don't fix it" and I suppose his cages kept his rabbits inside. But what a mishmash of ancient, dilapidated, amaturish looking collection of cages. I made better looking hutches, alone and without help, when I was 9 years old. He had maybe 50 or 60 hutches.
> I suppose if I had the experience of many of you (or I already had rabbits) I would have thanked him for his time and trudged back home at this point. But I suffered from the newby affliction of "I got empty cages, and I don't have experience and I want a rabbit NOW!
> I went for advertised NZ red does, 6mo, solid and broken, registered. $25. I only wanted one, preferrably solid. He told me, via phonecall, he only had two left, both broken.
> I asked, since 6 mos is prime breeding age and I don't have a buck, how much would he charge me to have her serviced. No charge, but no promises. Fair enough.(later he told me no luck on the breeding).
> He showed me the does, both to my unexperienced eye, well put together, blocky, rounded, alert, with big backends. Meat rabbits. I still hold to this assessment, but will admit my ignorance on this, and an experienced eye might tell me I have culls.
> Anyhow, back to housing. We made conversation, a quite congenial young man, while I looked around, assaying the environment and asking all pertinent questions I knew to ask. He was relaxed, ready with answers, and seemed honest and sincere. Yes, his rabbits were full time caged, no "ground time". Had been doing this since a teenager (late 20s/early 30s now). Only diseases he had ever had and had to treat for was ear mites. No coccidosis ever. Shared that he did no showing, and very little in the pet market, but dealt with mostly one or two "processors" and one had recently passed. Only time he had major losses was a couple years ago when we had two weeks of temps above 100f (I remember that year). Said he lost a lot. His information was straightforward.
> The cages. Small. Only about 24" wide. Would have pushed to be 16" tall. Barely enough room for these meat rabbits to turn around. Wire bottoms, many were 1X1 wire. No resting pads. No sign of hay or hay racks (" we just throw it on top of the cages"). But again, none visible. This was noontime.
> Each cage did have a tag attached with pertinent info; breed, sex, age, some codes I didn't decipher.
> Now I have been accused of being somewhat callous about animals and their place in the scheme of things. And, giving credit where credit is due, I think this guy was honest and aboveboard, but even more callous than I. Meat is meat. You raise it. You eat it. You don't pamper it.
> Anyhow, to the deal. I know this is long and likely boring.
> We had not agreed on a deal. And I had casually mentioned that I was also trying to find a Californian, cause I wanted to compare growout, etc. So, he said his buyer who had passed away was a Cali buyer, cause he needed white pelts in addition to meat. He (my seller) was not fond of Cali, just liked the color of his reds, and had gotten rid of most of his Cali stock. He had one pair left and IF I bought the red doe at $25, he would sell me the pair of Calis @ $10 each. $10 for a 10 lb stewing rabbit isn't bad, even if all you do is cook it. And these were 18 month registered breeding stock. I stuck my hand out and reached in my pocket.
> Now, I only brought one transport cage, which the does could go in. He found a cardboard box for the buck. Scruffed only, not even back feet support. Buck in the box. While I taped the box and placed it in the truck, he loaded the does into the carrier, so I didn't see him interact with them. That's important, and I'll tell you why, tomorrow. Your eyes are probably tired by now, anyhow.
> OMG. I just looked back and this is LONG. I should have broken it down, but I don't see how.


As far as the 1x1 hardware cloth for cage bottoms..that’s the route you want to go.  Larger holes will get the long nails of the rabbits stuck...paws/tow gets stuck..this way they bounce on top.  16” high is short but many breeders don’t care that rabbits love to jump.  I breed rabbits for fun..not money..an we only ate four out of...a ton!  So...our regular cages are very big and nice...but..I’m glad you got your new bunnies out of there!


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## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> As far as the 1x1 hardware cloth for cage bottoms..that’s the route you want to go.


Shhhhhhh! Don't say that too loud. I was on the "other site" when I started building my cages. I had about 200 ft of 1X1 wire, for free and was going to use it all around. When I announced that, it was like I had committed high treason against the state or something. I think they burned my avatar in effigy. 1X1/2 was the only thing acceptable. 1X1 and babies (100% they made it sound like) would break legs, and adults would develop horrendous sores on their feet. I didn't know what I was doing, and the outcry against 1X1 was so strong that I relented and BOUGHT 1X1/2 for the bottoms, letting much of my 1X1 languish in the "future use" pile. I don't know. I'm a novice. So when I have a large group telling me sternly that I'm doing something wrong, I accept their opinion and change plans.


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## Xerocles

Well, lets get back to story time. Now where we? Oh, yes. Hay. Well, I pretty much was certain of the answer to my next question. If they weren't used to hay, they probably never got GREEN STUFF. I have wild violets on the west side of my house, which are the only thing growing (and blooming) right now. Not wanting to upset tummies not used to such stuff, I grabbed 1 handful of violets to share between the three, a bare nibble for each. I began with Cruella....shes my test case. Now, when I pulled the violets, a few dead leaves had fallen on them, and so the dead leaves came along also. Cruella approached my offering, and nibbled on one of the dead leaves. Didn't even sniff the violets. Same with the other two. They didn't even recognize the green sruff as food. Later in the day, C did discover the violets cause they were gone. As was Salvador's. But Hunny bunny never ate hers. They just wilted away on the cage floor.
Oh. Salvador's name. Anybody figure it out? Look carefully at his picture. Not as obvious in a picture as in real life, but see the little "handlebar mustache" he has coming out from the dark markings on his muzzle? The instant I saw him in his cage when we got home, I said "you look like Salvador Dali!". I just hope his offspring don't look like Dali's work!
While I'm on the subject of Salvador. We've got a problem. Actually two. These rabbits are wild. They've never been handled. At all. Being the eternal optomist, I think I can calm them (well, two of them at least) enough at least for normal functions. But Salvador has ear mites. Pretty sure. Head shaking and scratching. I got the mineral oil. Trying to give him the week's acclimatazation before I start messing with him. But even then, not sure how to hold a rabbit who doesnt want to be held, and still have a hand free to put drops in the ears. But thats not the worst. You should see his nails! They're horrendous. I mean they don't even point downwards anymore, kinda go out to the side. NO IDEA how I'm gonna deal with that. Do they make sedatives for rabbits? Can I "swaddle" him like a newborn, wrapping him tightly with one foot at a time sticking out? Suggestions are appreciated. 
This looks like a good time to take a break. With the nasty weather, and me being stuck inside, I might continue in a bit.


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## Baymule

1”x1/2” is the proper bottom wire and up the side baby saver wire for rabbits. 

Ear mites. Get eye dropper ready, hold down rabbit firmly with other hand. Squirt. Squirt fast! Rabbit takes off shaking head, flinging droplets on you. Ick. Get over it. Get eye dropper ready and do other ear. Repeat every day. The crud will loosen up, q tips help dig it out. 

Toenails on a wild rabbit. Good question. It’s been a LOOONG time, mine were handled and tame. I would get a good hold on ears and scruff of neck, sit in chair, put rabbit in lap, trim with other hand. It would probably be a good idea to do a few dry runs but have clippers ready just in case it goes ok. 

Anybody else?


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## promiseacres

Baymule said:


> 1”x1/2” is the proper bottom wire and up the side baby saver wire for rabbits.


I definately agree! 
You can use a towel to wrap them up to trim nails, or holding them as Bay said. If they are pink just cut until the color, have cornstarch on hand if you get them too short. Might take a few trims on a regular schedule before they get to looking good so don't feel like you have to take them back all at once.


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## Xerocles

promiseacres said:


> Might take a few trims on a regular schedule before they get to looking good so don't feel like you have to take them back all at once.


Kinda like dogs? Trim, and the "quick" will receed gradually?


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## promiseacres

Exactly


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## Xerocles

*YOUNG LOVE!*
Quick recap. Bunnies came home Sunday afternoon. Buck went to a temp cage.
Monday morning I put the spreader bar on the buck cage. And moved him to his permanent home. Which just happened to be right next door to the 6 mo old NZred. Now this is the same doe that the breeder said refused to breed the day before.
I was ASTONISHED!  It was like the high school cheerleader and the star quarterback! Very quickly she approached the wire and sniffed noses. Then it was ON. The brazen little hussy! They would sniff noses for a few minutes, then she'd RUN (she had never been able to run in her old cage)full speed in a full circle around her cage, two laps. Then back to the buck, turn her backside to him and twitch her cottontail. The buck, being older and experienced, was glued to the wire, sniffing at every oppoortunity. They used the rest of the day in the same fashion. Sniff,run,offer. With a little time out raising as high in the cage as possible to explore for a way to get through. I had some good laughs at her running episodes.
Now, I still don't buy into that breeding through the wire stuff, but if its possible, those two got it on Monday night. Anyhow, this made me break my vow of no intervention for a week. Tuesday morning they were still acting like a couple of love struck bunnies, practically joined at the wire. So.... I retrieved the doe from her cage and introduced her to the buck cage. 4 falloffs in about 20 minutes. Well, in all honesty in his case it was more like 4 roll offs. But completions in any case.
Now let me defend myself upfront, because I can already hear the chides coming in. Yes, I am aware that I just set my doe up to deliver in the coldest month of the year. I put a great deal of thought into this, based on the information I have. First, she is turning 6 months old. True or not, info I have read indicates a doe should be bred at six months, and delays will lead to smaller litters subsequently throughout life. If I waited until Feb, (a much saner month for breeding) she would be 8 months. Also, first time mamas also often have problems with the first litter anyway. And lose some or all the kits. So, a double whammy. First timer in the coldest month. But if it goes bad for Any reason, she's got that "new mama" thing off her. If I waited til Feb, and she lost the litter to "new mama oops", I'm waiting until April or May for a reasonable surviving litter. Now, cold hearted maybe, but I figure if you're gonna gamble, go big. Lo
se the first litter in January, at least I'm ahead for a spring litter. I don't Want the kits to die, but it just feels like a reasonable gamble to me.
But bring it on. I'm ready. Tell me how I screwed up this time.
Oh, and for questions, yes I have the nest box. Kindling date is Jan 11, and nest box goes in on 7th
She's on open feed already. And full time hay rations. Gonna hold off on black oil sunflower or any other supplements because her system has never had anything before.
Hmmm. Tomorrow maybe we should talk about Cruella.


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## Baymule

I started breeding rabbits in September through April. Summer time was no-breed time. Heat kills. Fat, pregnant, wearing a fur coat, 90+ to 100 degrees guarantees a heat stroke dead doe. 

No flack, you did good. You did your homework and yes, breeding her at 6 months was the right thing to do. I know you don't have electricity to your rabbit barn. Can you run an outdoor extension cord to it? Go up a post, over, then drop down over the nest box. Use a 60  or 100 watt regular light bulb and place the aluminum shield over the nest box on freezing cold nights. Just keep the cord UP off the cage or you'll get fried rabbit sooner than you wanted, but you already know that.


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Go up a post, over, then drop down over the nest box. Use a 60  or 100 watt regular light bulb and place the aluminum shield over the nest box on freezing cold nights. Just keep the cord UP off the cage or you'll get fried rabbit sooner than you wanted, but you already know that.
> ​


Good stuff! I knew I kept you around for some reason!  
And maybe I'll slide a piece of pvc over the cord from the cage top to the light fixture "just in case".
Thanks... For thinking FOR me.


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## Xerocles

Xerocles said:


> Good stuff! I knew I kept you around for some reason!
> And maybe I'll slide a piece of pvc over the cord from the cage top to the light fixture "just in case".
> Thanks... For thinking FOR me.


And, in fact, I am planning on running electric out there....want to use electric fence. But that won't happen before January I don't think. But a drop cord...I've got one long enough.


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## Hens and Roos

Sounds like you are off to a good start with your rabbits!


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## Xerocles

Hens and Roos said:


> Sounds like you are off to a good start with your rabbits!


Thanks......and maybe. Wait'll we talk about Cruella before we make that call.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> *YOUNG LOVE!*
> Quick recap. Bunnies came home Sunday afternoon. Buck went to a temp cage.
> Monday morning I put the spreader bar on the buck cage. And moved him to his permanent home. Which just happened to be right next door to the 6 mo old NZred. Now this is the same doe that the breeder said refused to breed the day before.
> I was ASTONISHED!  It was like the high school cheerleader and the star quarterback! Very quickly she approached the wire and sniffed noses. Then it was ON. The brazen little hussy! They would sniff noses for a few minutes, then she'd RUN (she had never been able to run in her old cage)full speed in a full circle around her cage, two laps. Then back to the buck, turn her backside to him and twitch her cottontail. The buck, being older and experienced, was glued to the wire, sniffing at every oppoortunity. They used the rest of the day in the same fashion. Sniff,run,offer. With a little time out raising as high in the cage as possible to explore for a way to get through. I had some good laughs at her running episodes.
> Now, I still don't buy into that breeding through the wire stuff, but if its possible, those two got it on Monday night. Anyhow, this made me break my vow of no intervention for a week. Tuesday morning they were still acting like a couple of love struck bunnies, practically joined at the wire. So.... I retrieved the doe from her cage and introduced her to the buck cage. 4 falloffs in about 20 minutes. Well, in all honesty in his case it was more like 4 roll offs. But completions in any case.
> Now let me defend myself upfront, because I can already hear the chides coming in. Yes, I am aware that I just set my doe up to deliver in the coldest month of the year. I put a great deal of thought into this, based on the information I have. First, she is turning 6 months old. True or not, info I have read indicates a doe should be bred at six months, and delays will lead to smaller litters subsequently throughout life. If I waited until Feb, (a much saner month for breeding) she would be 8 months. Also, first time mamas also often have problems with the first litter anyway. And lose some or all the kits. So, a double whammy. First timer in the coldest month. But if it goes bad for Any reason, she's got that "new mama" thing off her. If I waited til Feb, and she lost the litter to "new mama oops", I'm waiting until April or May for a reasonable surviving litter. Now, cold hearted maybe, but I figure if you're gonna gamble, go big. Lo
> se the first litter in January, at least I'm ahead for a spring litter. I don't Want the kits to die, but it just feels like a reasonable gamble to me.
> But bring it on. I'm ready. Tell me how I screwed up this time.
> Oh, and for questions, yes I have the nest box. Kindling date is Jan 11, and nest box goes in on 7th
> She's on open feed already. And full time hay rations. Gonna hold off on black oil sunflower or any other supplements because her system has never had anything before.
> Hmmm. Tomorrow maybe we should talk about Cruella.


My husband gets a kick of watching and so cheers them on..I tell him he’s 12...he hears that a lot...


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## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> My husband gets a kick of watching and so cheers them on..I tell him he’s 12...he hears that a lot...


Ahhhhh.....to be 12 again. Go on. Go ahead. Make my day! Tell me I'm 12. I was definitely cheering them on.😊


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## Baymule

I used to breed 20-30 does at a time so I only lost a few nights sleep. I was out in the barn every 2 hours checking on them and had drop lights over every nest box. The barn had a welcoming warm glow. LOL


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Use a 60  or 100 watt regular light bulb and place the aluminum shield over the nest box on freezing cold nights. Just keep the cord UP off the cage or you'll get fried rabbit sooner than you wanted, but you already know that.


I couldn't stand it. Had to get out in the sunshine for a bit. Besides, I didn't want to be struggling with this on the night of. And it has to get the Baymule stamp of approval.

Of course I have to replace the chick lamp with a "normal" 100 watt. And of course no hay in the box. Just put it in to make sure everything fit. Is the placement right or do I need to reposition?


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## animalmom

Good job on the love birds!

I'm of two minds on the heat lamp issue... use them with my goats kid and it is cold but have not used a heat lamp with the rabbits.  Usually the moms pull enough fur to make a very cozy warm nest and I try to have extra fur stashed away for the few times I though she needed more fur in the nest.

I save fur from the summer time when I brush the rabbits... put the brushed out fur in a ziplock type bag.  When the rabbits molt I grab fur by the handful and add it to the bag.  Occasionally a doe will pull tons of fur and I grab some of the extra and pop it in the bag.  Comes in handy.

Regarding free feeding... the only time I free feed (keeping feed, which I define as rabbit pellets in the food dish 24/7) is 3 or 4 days after the doe kindles.  This gives her the time for her milk to come in before you ramp up the groceries.  Otherwise my Calis get fed in the late afternoon and get about 1/2 each... unless the night is going to be in the 20-30's then I give them another 1/4 cup.

Now about Cruella... poor thing, find her a better name, something cheerful and nice like Jessica.  You want her to be a good bunny, a nice bunny, a pleasure to have around and that may be difficult with her current name.  Just saying.  She apparently has had no contact with nice people, does not know about the nice things in life and has a bad attitude.  She is in self-defense mode.  Start with just talking to her kindly, work up to finding something she reallllllly likes to eat and treating her with a little piece in the morning.  For example, if you find out she likes apple then save her a little piece in the morning just for her.  I have some rabbits that go crazy for grapefruit peel, some are junkies for bananas or melon rind.  She needs to feel safe.  You can do this... you already care about her welfare.  1,000 Bravos for getting her out of that environment.  Given time she will be a calmer bunny.  She may retain a degree of alertness but she is a bunny and prey and prey is always alert.

I have some rabbits that love being touched at any time, some like it on their own terms but I have never had a rabbit that did not get to the point of greeting me at the front of the cage any time I was near... in expectation of something nice.

I think you are doing just fine.


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## Baymule

Lamp on top of the cage. No heat lamp. Is that cardboard? 

Like @animalmom said, it may not even be necessary, but you’ll have it if you need it.


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> Lamp on top of the cage. No heat lamp. Is that cardboard?


Lamp on top of cage. Got it.  But you said "place the aluminum shield over the nest box". Please remember, you're not dealing with the brightest bulb on the tree, here. Take me by the hand and lead me, please.
No heat lamp. Check. That's just what was in there from the brooder box.
Yes, that's cardboard. (SIGHHHH.) yes, I know it will be shredded and destroyed. Cardboard is free. It's single use and compost. No worry about pee and poop. Toss it, dunk the wire in disinfectant, and set it aside for next time. I just make sure the cardboard has as little printing as possible, and was originally used for things such as paper products and not chemical things.
Glad I took this picture now. I knew you needed to preview it, and I'd feel bad about calling you at 2:00a.m. on Jan 11. (Though you'll probably be up, birthing a sheep or something anyhow.)
Ya know, in spite of my being a misogynist, I gotta say, you're a great lady.


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## Xerocles

Alrighty then. Lets talk about Cruella. I didnt give her that name. She gave HERSELF that name.
Quick recap, she was nearly impossible to get out of the transport cage. But I won't hold that against her. Stress and all.
Well. Let's start by talking about me. Now I don't know rabbits, but I know animals. So whenever I am around a new animal, my voice is lowtone and soothing, my movements slow and deliberate, with no "from overhead" movements (predation fear and all). Basically, I am as non-threatening as possible. Yet I know enough to not show fear (unless it is truly called for).
So, she's in her cage, food, water, and hay pre-installed. Door latched, and I left them alone for the evening to settle in.(well, I peeked a couple of times before dark, just because.
Next morning, after basics, I was going to offer fresh violets (see, showing love). I opened Cruella's cage door (first time I'd opened it). Not even a hand inside. She growled and charged me. Not a foot stomping, or a "hopping forward", but a full on charge, from 3 feet (remember her cage is 3 feet deep) away, stopping AT the cage door. Now, I was NOT expecting this, and almost as quickly as she reached the door, I jumped back about a foot. Reflex. Realizing what I had done (acting scared/submissive) I immediately stepped back to the open cage, fully expecting a maddened bunny on my chest. But she retreated. I dropped the violets into her cage and closed the door, moving on to the next pen. She charged again. I was prepared this time. I stood my ground and slowly raised my hand and placed it, palm flat, on her cage, at her face level. (Against the 1/4 inch baby saver wire...I'm no fool). She retreated.
I had several reasons to be near the cages that morning, putting the spreader bar in the buck cage, moving him, etc. Every time I got near C's cage, she charged me, even when I wasn't directly approaching her cage. Every time, I slowly pressed my palm to the cage, to allow her to sniff if she cared, or allow her to try biting if she felt necessary. This has continued from Monday through today (Saturday) although the frequency and fervor has abated a little.
She hasn't figured out the water bottle (she had a ball bearing one before, and has a "needle" type now) so I gave her a bowl with water. Oh, she charged. I was wearing leather gloves, so stood my ground and braced myself (for the bite I knew was coming) She got to my hand and turned away.
Next day, of course she was out of water. I had a gallon milk jug with water (apple cider vinegar added, of course). And I was still wearing leather gloves of course. Her bowl was about half way across her cage. To minimize my hand exposure by grabbing her bowl, I slowly reached the milk jug into her cage to pour. She jumped from the back corner, in the air, hitting the jug with front feet, then kicking it with rear feet....nearly knocked the jug from my hand.  Luckily, she also knocked her bowl closer to the door. Now I started slowly pouring the water before it even entered her cage, until I reached her bowl. Closed the door, she charged again, and then turned to drink. I continue giving her "love offerings"...a couple carrot sticks, a bud branch from the pear tree, more violets. Open the door, place them gingerly just inside, close the door. She doesn't charge the open door anymore, but usually as soon as I turn to walk away, she charges.
Now, if this were a rabbit I had owned for some time, she would have been dinner the day after the first charge. I don't want aggressive rabbits, or aggressive genetics passed on. But I don't know what has happened with this rabbit and if the aggression is heredity or learned. She is a registered Californian, and I would like to get at least one litter out of her, just to see if the aggression shows up in her kits, and to potentially get future breeding stock.
Of course, I am beginning to rethink this also, because even if I bag her to take her to the buck....I have no idea what I would do if she attacked him.
So...one rabbit doesn't eat THAT much. I'll give her a few more weeks to see what happens. But I seriously think I will eventually be changing her name to hassenpfeffer.
And that's how Cruella named herself Cruella.
Tomorrow, why xerocles thinks he will never have rabbit poop for his garden.


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## Baymule

My nest boxes had wire bottoms, plywood sides, open top and were packed with hay. No solid bottoms. Does sometimes pee on their kits. The kits get ammonia pneumonia and die. Wire bottoms, the pee doesn't puddle up on the solid wood/cardboard bottom. Never used cardboard. When done, toss on compost heap. If it works, go for it.

*Ya know, in spite of my being a misogynist, I gotta say, you're a great lady.*​
what good does one do, if they know something useful and don't share it


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> My nest boxes had wire bottoms, plywood sides, open top and were packed with hay. No solid bottoms. Does sometimes pee on their kits. The kits get ammonia pneumonia and die. Wire bottoms, the pee doesn't puddle up on the solid wood/cardboard bottom. Never used cardboard. When done, toss on compost heap. If it works, go for it.


Hmmmm. Food for thought. Cardboard will absorb the moisture pretty fast, and also dry pretty fast. But amonia fumes are still amonia fumes. But the same could be said of the hay. Did you change hay much when they were tiny?
The cardboard is only for winter. Remember I have an open shed. (BTW. will have the tarps installed by mid-week. Just had to wait for justification for a trip to Harbor Freight. Going Monday.) Help to protect from chilling wind. Summertime, no cardboard. Maximum air circulation.
You've given me something to ponder. Easy enough to omit the floor cardboard.


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## Baymule

I seldom had to change the hay, but I did change some out. I started out with a wood box with a top and that was a disaster. Finally got to the wire bottom box with no top and that one was the winner. If you find a cold kit out on the wire, tuck in your shirt, put the kit inside next to your belly and warm it up, turn it over to warm the other side, you can save them and put them back in the nest.


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## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> . If you find a cold kit out on the wire, tuck in your shirt, put the kit inside next to your belly and warm it up, turn it over to warm the other side, you can save them and put them back in the nest.


 
The only advice I had read before was to tuck it in your bra. Wondered what someone would tell me, especially since I don't wear whitety tities.
Yeah, heard before, they're not dead til they're warm and dead.


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## Baymule

I stuck them in my bra, but since you haven's shown any affinity for cross dressing, I felt that advice was useless.


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## promiseacres

Cruella may need bred...some mellow when bred, but keep your hand high and watch her. Some are very territorial. They seem to born that way and not much you can do to change them. I have a couple...they respect and get thumped if they jump at me...they all are sweet as can be when bred. I don't tolerate nasty bucks...they tend to be less predictable. And since my kids help feed and show the rabbits... not going to tolerate much. One territorial doe is a homebred mini rex who got a BOB for my daughter out of about 35 rabbits. She and I have worked out things for the most part, kids know not to mess with her too much. She's a sweetie when bred...


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## Xerocles

The rabbits have officially been here for more than a week. So, its time to start working them into the family a little. They're still standoffish. No touching. But the red actually approaches when I open the door, and Cruella seldom charges anymore. The buck? He's just kinda there. No touchy, but otherwise just a laid back rabbit. I start with him. Gotta get mineral oil in those ears. I know he's gotta be miserable, from the head shaking and scratching. Hey, question. How many days do I treat, and is it necessary to dive in with q-tips? This early on, and with them not accustomed to handling, I want to keep it as non-obtrusive as possible while still doing what I need to do. They're all loving the pear tree chew sticks I give them. I'm guessing they haven't had much to keep those teeth worn down with.
But, I said I was gonna talk poop today. One week, and I challenge anyone to find more than 6 bunny berries under my cages. Oh, the rabbits are doing their part. But, as I said, they're there for poop, meat is a byproduct. I'm starting from less than scratch on my garden, and wish I had a literal ton of rabbit manure.
NYX. (The dog, for those who don't know) VERY quickly caught on that the rabbits belong and are not to be bothered. She has adopted them as "her" pets. Spends a huge amount of time on the uphill side (which puts her nearly on eye level) just watching them. She learned they were "good" really quickly, but I'm kinda paranoid so I spend a lot of time watching her watching them. She's a dog, and in spite of what I think she knows, better safe than sorry. So, I noticed from time to time, she would go under the hutch and stand there staring up. I wouldn't correct until she overtly misbehaved (made a move on the rabbits). She never did, but I observed occasional quick head bobs from her. Working closer so I could see better, I finally figured it out. She was catching poo in mid drop! She keeps the ground vacuumed of poop.
Some of you have ridden me pretty hard about fencing or enclosing the shed to prevent predation. Well, you win, but in this case to prevent predation ON THE POOP by my own dog. Oh, lest you think "poor dog she must be starving". She's on free food. I dump it in the bin, and she uses her nose to open a flap and feed at will. She just likes the taste of rabbit pills. Has cut down on the dog food consumption, but I'd rather have the fertilizer!
And tomorrow's another day. Bring it on!


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## Baymule

Rabbit poop=dog candy. And goat, sheep, chicken poop too. My dogs LOVE new baby lamb poop, all yellow with colostrum  and milky. They lick the lambs butts clean.


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## Xerocles

Cruela is improving. Don't get me wrong. I'm not ready to change her name to "cuddles" or anything. But maybe I'll have to forgo hassenpfeffer for Christmas. 10 days in. She has stopped charging the cage whenever I approach. She even hops (HOPS, not charges) to the front of the cage when I walk up. I even reached my ungloved hand in to the midpoint of her cage to retrieve her water dish (still can't figure why she won't use the bottle) without a growl or attack. And I'm sure it's my charm, and not the fresh violets, pear limbs, hay or bananas I've been bribing her with (in very small amounts since her system isn't used to it).
We'll see. I know one day I'll have to have the confrontation to decide just who is the head rabbit, but since she's doing so well, I think I'll put it off a bit longer.
Other two are doing fine. Still no touchy feely, but the NZ is sniffing my hand routinely....until I extend a finger to touch her.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Good stuff! I knew I kept you around for some reason!
> And maybe I'll slide a piece of pvc over the cord from the cage top to the light fixture "just in case".
> Thanks... For thinking FOR me.


Don’t you think if he’s going to do that he’d be better


Baymule said:


> I started breeding rabbits in September through April. Summer time was no-breed time. Heat kills. Fat, pregnant, wearing a fur coat, 90+ to 100 degrees guarantees a heat stroke dead doe.
> 
> No flack, you did good. You did your homework and yes, breeding her at 6 months was the right thing to do. I know you don't have electricity to your rabbit barn. Can you run an outdoor extension cord to it? Go up a post, over, then drop down over the nest box. Use a 60  or 100 watt regular light bulb and place the aluminum shield over the nest box on freezing cold nights. Just keep the cord UP off the cage or you'll get fried rabbit sooner than you wanted, but you already know that.


if he’s going to do that....don’t you think he’d be better, putting it a tad further away from the nest but using an actual heat lamp bulb?  The red one?  I have a very very sick duck.  He’s been in the house barn for three weeks...for the first two I thought I had the heat lamp on him and I kept asking Chris to make sure it wasn’t too close to his hay, the blanket, etc...he kept saying it was fine.  Then the other day he comes in and called me a moron because that was our grower bulb for plants...not heat...but I said you were supposed to check it..so he’s the moron!  but..anyways...those give off more heat, but you have to just back it up..since it’s not an inside coop, etc..there’s not much risk for fire.  Just a thought...I’ve never needed to use anything besides the mother’s warm fur


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## Duckfarmerpa1

animalmom said:


> Good job on the love birds!
> 
> I'm of two minds on the heat lamp issue... use them with my goats kid and it is cold but have not used a heat lamp with the rabbits.  Usually the moms pull enough fur to make a very cozy warm nest and I try to have extra fur stashed away for the few times I though she needed more fur in the nest.
> 
> I save fur from the summer time when I brush the rabbits... put the brushed out fur in a ziplock type bag.  When the rabbits molt I grab fur by the handful and add it to the bag.  Occasionally a doe will pull tons of fur and I grab some of the extra and pop it in the bag.  Comes in handy.
> 
> Regarding free feeding... the only time I free feed (keeping feed, which I define as rabbit pellets in the food dish 24/7) is 3 or 4 days after the doe kindles.  This gives her the time for her milk to come in before you ramp up the groceries.  Otherwise my Calis get fed in the late afternoon and get about 1/2 each... unless the night is going to be in the 20-30's then I give them another 1/4 cup.
> 
> Now about Cruella... poor thing, find her a better name, something cheerful and nice like Jessica.  You want her to be a good bunny, a nice bunny, a pleasure to have around and that may be difficult with her current name.  Just saying.  She apparently has had no contact with nice people, does not know about the nice things in life and has a bad attitude.  She is in self-defense mode.  Start with just talking to her kindly, work up to finding something she reallllllly likes to eat and treating her with a little piece in the morning.  For example, if you find out she likes apple then save her a little piece in the morning just for her.  I have some rabbits that go crazy for grapefruit peel, some are junkies for bananas or melon rind.  She needs to feel safe.  You can do this... you already care about her welfare.  1,000 Bravos for getting her out of that environment.  Given time she will be a calmer bunny.  She may retain a degree of alertness but she is a bunny and prey and prey is always alert.
> 
> I have some rabbits that love being touched at any time, some like it on their own terms but I have never had a rabbit that did not get to the point of greeting me at the front of the cage any time I was near... in expectation of something nice.
> 
> I think you are doing just fine.


ive. never had to fiddle around with the hat much in the nesting boxes.  I try to treat it a sacred for the kits.   I feel through...if it’s damp..I clean it..I smell it, I clean..but if it’s ok...I leave it be.  You need a lot of hay, though.  That’s how she makes her nest and keeps them safe..then they dig all through it.   I agree with herd master...if you give care and a new name to Cruella..she will be a new rabbit.  Many of my animals are rescues that had no contact with humans.  Now..they have a great life!!


Xerocles said:


> Hmmmm. Food for thought. Cardboard will absorb the moisture pretty fast, and also dry pretty fast. But amonia fumes are still amonia fumes. But the same could be said of the hay. Did you change hay much when they were tiny?
> The cardboard is only for winter. Remember I have an open shed. (BTW. will have the tarps installed by mid-week. Just had to wait for justification for a trip to Harbor Freight. Going Monday.) Help to protect from chilling wind. Summertime, no cardboard. Maximum air circulation.
> You've given me something to ponder. Easy enough to omit the floor cardboard.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Cruela is improving. Don't get me wrong. I'm not ready to change her name to "cuddles" or anything. But maybe I'll have to forgo hassenpfeffer for Christmas. 10 days in. She has stopped charging the cage whenever I approach. She even hops (HOPS, not charges) to the front of the cage when I walk up. I even reached my ungloved hand in to the midpoint of her cage to retrieve her water dish (still can't figure why she won't use the bottle) without a growl or attack. And I'm sure it's my charm, and not the fresh violets, pear limbs, hay or bananas I've been bribing her with (in very small amounts since her system isn't used to it).
> We'll see. I know one day I'll have to have the confrontation to decide just who is the head rabbit, but since she's doing so well, I think I'll put it off a bit longer.
> Other two are doing fine. Still no touchy feely, but the NZ is sniffing my hand routinely....until I extend a finger to touch her.


Do you pick them up and hold them?  That puts you as the one in charge


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Baymule said:


> I stuck them in my bra, but since you haven's shown any affinity for cross dressing, I felt that advice was useless.


I totally stick new kits in mine...that works great for any that need warmed up, etc


----------



## Baymule

The lamp may not be needed, but if there is a sudden cold snap, better safe than sorry. His rabbitry is open with no solid sides. He is in the south, so can go from 80* to freezing in a day/night. Like we just did, it was 82* on Sunday, 28* Monday morning. LOL He is a good Bunny Grand Daddy and wants his kits to be warm and cozy. 

I never used a heat lamp, just a 60 or 100 watt light bulb. When I had rabbits, I lived in Baytown, right on Trinity Bay, which emptied into the Gulf of Mexico. While warm and balmy most of the time, temps would drop and I kept those aluminum drop lights on top of the cage, over the nest box.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> The rabbits have officially been here for more than a week. So, its time to start working them into the family a little. They're still standoffish. No touching. But the red actually approaches when I open the door, and Cruella seldom charges anymore. The buck? He's just kinda there. No touchy, but otherwise just a laid back rabbit. I start with him. Gotta get mineral oil in those ears. I know he's gotta be miserable, from the head shaking and scratching. Hey, question. How many days do I treat, and is it necessary to dive in with q-tips? This early on, and with them not accustomed to handling, I want to keep it as non-obtrusive as possible while still doing what I need to do. They're all loving the pear tree chew sticks I give them. I'm guessing they haven't had much to keep those teeth worn down with.
> But, I said I was gonna talk poop today. One week, and I challenge anyone to find more than 6 bunny berries under my cages. Oh, the rabbits are doing their part. But, as I said, they're there for poop, meat is a byproduct. I'm starting from less than scratch on my garden, and wish I had a literal ton of rabbit manure.
> NYX. (The dog, for those who don't know) VERY quickly caught on that the rabbits belong and are not to be bothered. She has adopted them as "her" pets. Spends a huge amount of time on the uphill side (which puts her nearly on eye level) just watching them. She learned they were "good" really quickly, but I'm kinda paranoid so I spend a lot of time watching her watching them. She's a dog, and in spite of what I think she knows, better safe than sorry. So, I noticed from time to time, she would go under the hutch and stand there staring up. I wouldn't correct until she overtly misbehaved (made a move on the rabbits). She never did, but I observed occasional quick head bobs from her. Working closer so I could see better, I finally figured it out. She was catching poo in mid drop! She keeps the ground vacuumed of poop.
> Some of you have ridden me pretty hard about fencing or enclosing the shed to prevent predation. Well, you win, but in this case to prevent predation ON THE POOP by my own dog. Oh, lest you think "poor dog she must be starving". She's on free food. I dump it in the bin, and she uses her nose to open a flap and feed at will. She just likes the taste of rabbit pills. Has cut down on the dog food consumption, but I'd rather have the fertilizer!
> And tomorrow's another day. Bring it on!


Dogs eating rabbit Pooh is quite common.  My shi tzu does it.  He hates the farm...never comes out..but if he does..it’s only to go to the hutches.....little stinker...don’t worry.  A dog cannot get sick (Typically) from eating the dropping, but will get sick if it eats a dead rabbit.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

What’s going on with the bunnies?  Haven’t heard about them??


----------



## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> What’s going on with the bunnies?  Haven’t heard about them??


Sighhhh. I've been retired for 18 months. I want my job back. I need the rest!
The bunnies are on the back burner. I firmly work on the premise of "crisis management". My garden prep elevated to crisis this past week (see my thread "my garden" to learn more).
The bunnies aren't getting the attention I WANT to give them. They're in "maintainence mode". Food, hay, water....catch you later. Gotta get back to them by the 7th. That's nest box day.
I only wish I were as efficient and productive as many on this site, accomplishing a dozen things a day. But then, I'm starting from scratch, instead of maintaining an established enterprise. Today and tomorrow I have "rain today, drenching rain tomorrow". So its inside chore days. Gosh, why does one person even OWN this many clothes!
Be back to rabbits ASAP.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Sounds good...no worries..you’ll get into a rhythm with with the rabbits just like with..you said before about chickens..or at least you gave me chicken advice so I believe you have them...but, once you learn the ropes..you’ll get the routine down, and yes, many animal breeds will become easier.  I was soooo overwhelmed when we got my goats...because they take a TON of work...but..I’ve got it down down..until kidding time..in mid February...just around the corner!  I’ll have to read about your garden..I hope it’s all good things.  We are getting seeds ready and we’ve deci to devote 5 acres to sunflowers and 5 to pumpkins.  They were our biggest seller at our farm Marketo and they last a long time and all of our animals eat them.  BOSS is great for most of our animals and not that hard as far as equipment.  So..if you ever have grain growing tips..let me know!


----------



## Xerocles

Rabbits are NOT receiving the close attention I'd hoped to be giving them. I'm making _some_ time for them. Salvadore and the broken red are enduring a little petting each day....but only after avoiding me a couple of tries first. The first couple of times rubbing Salvadore, felt like rubbing a stone. I have never experienced an animal as hard from stress as his body felt. But he's at least relaxing a _little now. _It actually feels like flesh and blood under that fur coat. Cruella has completely quit grunting and charging. I can do most anything in her cage that I want......except pet her. One finger touch is all I can manage without her freaking out.
@Baymule I'm finally within 10 days of kindling so I can see the extended weather forecast. The entire week of.... Highs mid to upper 50s and lows higher 30s to mid 50s. But SO glad you taught me about the lamp thing. Its there if I ever DO need it. 

I HAVE A QUESTION. Duh! Anybody shocked by that information? Sunflower seeds. Yesterday I was offered a 1/4 acre field of sunflowers for the taking. Now I have no idea of the variety. Free, so it didn't feel appropriate to query. Pretty sure not BOSS. So, as I usually do, I researched on the internet before I bothered you guys. Improves coat appearance, creates body heat, so good for winter treats, excess causes weight gain. But the recommended amount for a 10 lb rabbit is about *8 *seeds, 3X a week. IS THAT RIGHT? I know they're lightweight and all but only 8 seeds at a time? I'd be thinking "Hey, that's go...HEY, that's all I get??? That wasn't even a good taste". 8 seeds would just pi$$ me off. For anybody who offers sunflower seeds. How much do you give?


----------



## animalmom

I give my rabbits BOSS every other day.  They adore it; they crave it; they would fight hades for it.

They get about a tablespoon's worth.

Your chickens would love the sunflower seeds too.  Just throw the whole dried head in their pen and let them amuse themselves with pecking and scratching.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

We are planting 5 acres of BOSS this summer for our farm...all our animals love them..but, sadly, yes...the rabbits can only have small amounts...it’ll make them gain too much an could mess up organ issues, I’ve heard...not sure on that part...I give them to my mommas to help with their milk..and they get more than 8    But the seeds last a long time?so take full advantage of this offer!  I know you’re busy..but even a gentle daily stroke goes a looong way with making a rabbit come around your way....so try to add that to your daily  routine while changing water, hay, feed...


----------



## Xerocles

It's been awhile since I updated on the rabbits. Lots of stuff getting in the way, and, quite thankful, nothing of consequence has been going on with them. 
HOPEFULLY that will change tomorrow. It's day 31! Time to find out if Salvador, with his lazy "rolloff" is shooting blanks. I'm pretty sure red's preggers. She's got a little "pot belly" thing going on when she's walking around, and a head on view shows a little broader in the middle than before. We'll see.
She DOES NOT like my idea of home decor. Two days ago I filled a nesting box with hay. It was a thing of beauty! Nice little padded foyer with a tunnel leading into a spacious, well formed "hole" in the back. Gracious handfull of hay on the floor for her to make "personal" touches with. I came back two hours later to check on the rabbits. The inside of the nest box was cleaner than my kitchen floor, and the rest of her cage had converted to the "deep litter method" of rabbit keeping.   Of course, almost all has sifted to the ground now. I refilled the nest today. Forget the "beauty" thing. Just grabbed a bunch of hay and stuffed in there.
Oh. Cruella (doing better but still not ready to change her name to "cuddles"). She would not attempt to use her water bottle. It was the "pin" type (less leakage than the ballbearing type). Her one from her old home was the ball type. So, I had been watering her in a crock bowl. I would even let her bowl go empty (not for long) put it under the bottle, and activate it, so it dribbled into the bowl. NOPE. She would rather go thirsty than try something new. She won! Last week I was in TSC and picked up a ball type waterer. I couldn't even get it attached to the wire before she was drinking out of it, like she hadn't had water in a month.
And apples! Today was the first time they experienced apples. They've had carrots,(so-so with), bananas (they eat them, but without gusto), violets (they like pretty well, but its such a small patch), and pear twigs and branches (amazing, but their favorite so far). Sunflower seeds were a bust. No interest. Wanting SOMETHING really distracting to give red while I examined her kits (if she ever has them), so I bought apples yesterday (golden delicious if the variety matters). This morning each got a slice. Sniff, and turn away. I left them on the cage floor. 5 hours later, they're still there, untouched.
Keeping fingers crossed for tomorrow.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

O


Xerocles said:


> It's been awhile since I updated on the rabbits. Lots of stuff getting in the way, and, quite thankful, nothing of consequence has been going on with them.
> HOPEFULLY that will change tomorrow. It's day 31! Time to find out if Salvador, with his lazy "rolloff" is shooting blanks. I'm pretty sure red's preggers. She's got a little "pot belly" thing going on when she's walking around, and a head on view shows a little broader in the middle than before. We'll see.
> She DOES NOT like my idea of home decor. Two days ago I filled a nesting box with hay. It was a thing of beauty! Nice little padded foyer with a tunnel leading into a spacious, well formed "hole" in the back. Gracious handfull of hay on the floor for her to make "personal" touches with. I came back two hours later to check on the rabbits. The inside of the nest box was cleaner than my kitchen floor, and the rest of her cage had converted to the "deep litter method" of rabbit keeping.   Of course, almost all has sifted to the ground now. I refilled the nest today. Forget the "beauty" thing. Just grabbed a bunch of hay and stuffed in there.
> Oh. Cruella (doing better but still not ready to change her name to "cuddles"). She would not attempt to use her water bottle. It was the "pin" type (less leakage than the ballbearing type). Her one from her old home was the ball type. So, I had been watering her in a crock bowl. I would even let her bowl go empty (not for long) put it under the bottle, and activate it, so it dribbled into the bowl. NOPE. She would rather go thirsty than try something new. She won! Last week I was in TSC and picked up a ball type waterer. I couldn't even get it attached to the wire before she was drinking out of it, like she hadn't had water in a month.
> And apples! Today was the first time they experienced apples. They've had carrots,(so-so with), bananas (they eat them, but without gusto), violets (they like pretty well, but its such a small patch), and pear twigs and branches (amazing, but their favorite so far). Sunflower seeds were a bust. No interest. Wanting SOMETHING really distracting to give red while I examined her kits (if she ever has them), so I bought apples yesterday (golden delicious if the variety matters). This morning each got a slice. Sniff, and turn away. I left them on the cage floor. 5 hours later, they're still there, untouched.
> Keeping fingers crossed for tomorrow.


h noooo!  Theyre soo expensive too!  Mine love them and we have apple trees!!  Wait until the summer when you have dandelions..I highly recommend that you no longer weedwhack if possible around stuff people wont see..let them grow big...the leaves..the flowers..they love them!!  We pick them daily..cheapest treat out there and they are sooo happy!    Plus..our grocery store has a shopping cart where they put the slightly old veggies.  There’s always good stuff in there.  Like kale!  I was paying $2 a bag until I  Found the cart..now I can scoop it up for $1 sometimes..  ours like strawberry but that’s not in season...green beans fresh out of the garden!  And the real lettuce out of the garden..once again..we sell our veggies..but, what does go that day, we take down and give to the animals...no waste...Take those apples and make yourself a pie or applesauce, unless you like to eat them..hate to see anything not be enjoyed!!  But I’m glad to hear the bunnies are doing well and it’s almost middle time!  I want to see lots of pictures!!


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## Xerocles

Day 31. 7:am. No kits, no nest building, no fur pulling.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Day 31. 7:am. No kits, no nest building, no fur pulling.


Bummer....be patient...remember..this doesn’t alway go by the book.  You don’t have to put a nest box in on an exact day...take cues from your girl...she may pull for a week..she may do everything in one night.  They are alll different.  Both my girls who started pulling at the beginning of the week have settled down now...but, I’m trying to be patient.  I don’t even let that stupid word false pregnancy enter Mt thoughts at this point...nothing  you can do but enjoy the process...if in a few more days, nothing, you can rebreEd your doe..... I’m pulling for you!


----------



## B&B Happy goats

My Flemish giant goes on day 35 and the NZ  any time they want.....I stopped waiting..


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## Baymule

Just remember, THEY ARE FEMALE. Does that make it plain and clear to you? LOL LOL


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## Xerocles

QUICK HELP! Kits are here. Zero fur pulled. No hay in nest box. She had them in the nest box, ripped off a piece of cardboard to cover them and thats all. Do I intervene and add something? I didn't even count! Temp is mild. Its 59f right now and supposed to hit 79s today.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Ok


Xerocles said:


> QUICK HELP! Kits are here. Zero fur pulled. No hay in nest box. She had them in the nest box, ripped off a piece of cardboard to cover them and thats all. Do I intervene and add something? I didn't even count! Temp is mild. Its 59f right now and supposed to hit 79s today.


, so I put on the coffe thread to add the hay in the nest box and put he4 cardboard on the top of the kits.  That’s what I...not an expert...but definitely experienced with lost kits from exposure....would do.  Get them off the wire grate.  Maybe give her some BOSS if you have it, she might be tired.  Plus, some new moms jump when you do in at first...just don’t act scared..but don’t get scratched...ugh....it’ll be fine..congrats!!


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Xerocles said:


> QUICK HELP! Kits are here. Zero fur pulled. No hay in nest box. She had them in the nest box, ripped off a piece of cardboard to cover them and thats all. Do I intervene and add something? I didn't even count! Temp is mild. Its 59f right now and supposed to hit 79s today.


Just put some hay in there for warmth, underneath them ..(in their nest box) ..kinda like a bird's nest.....you will have to wait see what happens....I would suggest not to use the cardboard on the bottom . ...best of luck to you and your kits .


----------



## Xerocles

She had 5. 4 clustered in the back with no hay, only a piece of cardboard to cover them. One nestled up front in a little spot of hay. I built a nest hole of some really soft grass hay and put all five into it. Right now all wiggling and squirming, so we'll see how it goes.
Females! Guess she figured she wasn't gonna mess up her pretty red and white fur coat by pulling fur out!




What I found. Notice one in lower right.





Snuggled in new hay.


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## B&B Happy goats

Xerocles said:


> She had 5. 4 clustered in the back with no hay, only a piece of cardboard to cover them. One nestled up front in a little spot of hay. I built a nest hole of some really soft grass hay and put all five into it. Right now all wiggling and squirming, so we'll see how it goes.
> Females! Guess she figured she wasn't gonna mess up her pretty red and white fur coat by pulling fur out!
> View attachment 68806
> What I found. Notice one in lower right
> Snuggled in new hay.


They need a box over them to keep drafts off them as mom didn't  pull any fur, it needs to be big enough for her to get into and nurse the kits , and have a "lip" at the opening where she goes in to keep the kits from crawling out of the nest or being attached to her while nursing...
We made ours out of wood and leave them in the hutch all the time so they also have extra shelter from rain or wind.... congratulations  on your first kits  .


----------



## Xerocles

B&B Happy goats said:


> They need a box over them to keep drafts off them as mom didn't  pull any fur,


Do you mean kinda like this?


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Well, we are in Florida and these pictures that I just grabbed  for you may help explain.....


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Yepper, still getting used to my new tablet, sorry for the duplications ...
The big brown rabbit is a Flemish giant and has a larger nest box  and hutch, but she has 11 kits in there with her....


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## Xerocles

B&B Happy goats said:


> Well, we are in Florida and these pictures that I just grabbed  for you may help explain.....View attachment 68811
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm. Here in SC we have more hot and steamy than frigid (will be in 70s today). So, nest boxes were built more FOR draftiness to avoid heat deaths. How do you prevent kits overheating in Fl summers? Cardboard is just winter inserts.
> Didn't expect this dumb bunny to not pull ANY fur, OR to take all the hay OUT of the nest box.
> Initial nest is just emergency shelter. Didn't want to futz around too much with them and a first time nervous mom. I will reinforce the cardboard soon. But not toooo worried. Lowest low for the next week is 57f.
Click to expand...


----------



## Baymule

Congrats on the new babies! You are a Bunny Grand Daddy!


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Mine will go inside the box in the summer also......and it's  about as hot and humid here as you can imagine, but we do get 33 degree temps in the winter also. Sooo I leave the box inside year round, mine like their little homes  and use them for lots of bunny reasons 
My hutches are all built 4 foot off the ground in the chicken yard under a overhang of lush green tree limbs to protect them from the direct sun...it has been working great for two plus years.


----------



## promiseacres

Some of mine don't pull hay until afterwards... I have extra fur (collected from previous litters)  on hand if I feel the does need help.  Some people will pull some from Mom if need be.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> She had 5. 4 clustered in the back with no hay, only a piece of cardboard to cover them. One nestled up front in a little spot of hay. I built a nest hole of some really soft grass hay and put all five into it. Right now all wiggling and squirming, so we'll see how it goes.
> Females! Guess she figured she wasn't gonna mess up her pretty red and white fur coat by pulling fur out!
> View attachment 68806
> What I found. Notice one in lower right.
> View attachment 68807View attachment 68808
> Snuggled in new hay.


Oh they’re sooo cute!!  black too!!  How sweet!!  Was the nesting box made of cardboard and she chewed it up?  I’m glad you have them snuggled..


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

B&B Happy goats said:


> Well, we are in Florida and these pictures that I just grabbed  for you may help explain.....View attachment 68811View attachment 68813View attachment 68811View attachment 68813View attachment 68814


Yes those are great pictures..we have even more simple ones...by now we’ve made them all dimensions, with lips, etc...but...I know you spent a ton of money on the wire...however..it won’t hold up to weather...and..she needs shelter for the kits..plus the moms jump on top as a way to protect...


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

B&B Happy goats said:


> Mine will go inside the box in the summer also......and it's  about as hot and humid here as you can imagine, but we do get 33 degree temps in the winter also. Sooo I leave the box inside year round, mine like their little homes  and use them for lots of bunny reasons
> My hutches are all built 4 foot off the ground in the chicken yard under a overhang of lush green tree limbs to protect them from the direct sun...it has been working great for two plus years.


The box actually keeps it cool in the summer...


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

B&B Happy goats said:


> Mine will go inside the box in the summer also......and it's  about as hot and humid here as you can imagine, but we do get 33 degree temps in the winter also. Sooo I leave the box inside year round, mine like their little homes  and use them for lots of bunny reasons
> My hutches are all built 4 foot off the ground in the chicken yard under a overhang of lush green tree limbs to protect them from the direct sun...it has been working great for two plus years.


I give my bunnies regular sleeping boxes too...just different ones..with no bottoms so it’s easier to clean.  I still put hay in for cozi, but then its just not as messy.  And since the boxes are so easy for a Chris to make...he doesn’t mind just making me more...


----------



## JHP Homestead

Congrats on the babies! I think your nesting boxes look good. With those temps, they should be fine as long as there’s hay (and ideally fur). A decent nest of hay will block the wind as much as wood does. 

If she’ll let you, you could try to lightly pull some fur from her sides, belly, or neck. The fur usually loosens is quite a bit so it should be easy to pull. And it might help give her the right idea.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Yes those are great pictures..we have even more simple ones...by now we’ve made them all dimensions, with lips, etc...but...I know you spent a ton of money on the wire...however..it won’t hold up to weather...and..she needs shelter for the kits..plus the moms jump on top as a way to protect...View attachment 68819


i was just showing you some ideas of what we have found works...but, the kits are absolutely adorable that’s all that really matters...how’s momma being with you being in there?  and the rest of the bunnies?


----------



## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> i was just showing you some ideas of what we have found works...but, the kits are absolutely adorable that’s all that really matters...how’s momma being with you being in there?  and the rest of the bunnies?


She's as nervous as a cat in a room of rocking chairs. All over the cage when I get within 20 ft.
Learning new stuff. Mom only goes in nest 2X a day. WRONG. I caught her in there 4 times today. 
4 of the kits wiggled to the front of the nest box, twice. After that, I left them there. Hope Mama doesn't squish them getting in and out. One stayed in the back....so just before dark I pulled him into the others, for warmth and nursing.
At least she didn't take the hay out this time. She emptied it 2X before the kits. Never pulled ANY fur.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Well, looks they, and you had an adventurus day....now—-did you take notes?  This key for the next tine times you do this won’t rem.  Writer down how r she kindred after outing in the big, writer down that she ripped up the cardboard..that she pulled no fur.  I give her some BOSS, jus a bit each day as a treat...wgphen she earns a reward with her kits...etc.  I write their daily habits, because it’s differen each time ...you need to record this so rem it for the future.  Living traditions. Homesteading has it on utube...a bookkeeper to coptand write the same info yourself.

but, keep track off of everything...because with so. Much learning goin game on.youll forget so,ethinh...goog luch


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## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> .now—-did you take notes?  This key for the next tine times you do this won’t rem.


What? Are you suggesting I have a bad memory? Why, I'll have you know that I never for.......dang, now what was I saying?
Yes, I've reached that age where I start thinking a lot about the "hereafter". Like I walk into a room and stop to think "now what am I here after"?
Good points you make. Ahead of you on this one. Excel spreadsheet for pertinent facts and comment section for trivia.
And yes, I do follow "living traditions homestead".


----------



## Mini Horses

AWWWWH.   Adorable.  They finally arrived.  Congrats!!  

Yeah, you need to make notes.  I used to just keep a spiral notebook with breeding/foaling notes when I had all the horses going full steam.   I could see how long gestation, foal quirks, time of day, etc.   Most often a lot of close repetition year to year.   Then -- try to keep the book where you can find it.

Now, I do same with the goats.  But they are generally right on time!    Only rabbits for me were pets but, my DH did breed a pair one year, for the grankids to have something to play with.


----------



## Xerocles

Mini Horses said:


> Yeah, you need to make notes.    Then -- try to keep the book where you can find it.


I was going to do the spiral notebook thing, but...
1. Even I can't read my writing.
2. I have trouble even finding my pants, much less a notebook.
It took me about 30 minutes to design an Excel spreadsheet, and it's hard for even ME to misplace my desktop computer. I make 4 entries-date bred, date kindled, # born, # weaned. Everything else (due date,re-breed date,  wean date, etc) updates automatically, so I don't even need to use my fingers to know (or remember) when I need to put the nest box in and such. Even keeps a running tally of avg litter size and mortality rate from birth to weaning. 
Gotta love computers.....except when you hate them.


----------



## Xerocles

OK. I dragged (more like swam) my candya$$ out there. All five in one hole, covered in hay. Nice round fat bellies so I guess Mama is doing SOMETHING for them.


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> I was going to do the spiral notebook thing, but...
> 1. Even I can't read my writing.
> 2. I have trouble even finding my pants, much less a notebook.
> It took me about 30 minutes to design an Excel spreadsheet, and it's hard for even ME to misplace my desktop computer. I make 4 entries-date bred, date kindled, # born, # weaned. Everything else (due date,re-breed date,  wean date, etc) updates automatically, so I don't even need to use my fingers to know (or remember) when I need to put the nest box in and such. Even keeps a running tally of avg litter size and mortality rate from birth to weaning.
> Gotta love computers.....except when you hate them.


Geez...I used to be A whiz with computers..it was one of my degrees...but now it’s useless...and I couldn’t get Excel to move the tabs to save my life   But, I Just figured out those little critters


----------



## Baymule

Glad your babies are snug and warm. Sometimes you just have to give the mom a little help. 

 One of our ewes had a ram lamb yesterday, of course it dropped to 26 degrees that night. We had cleaned out the sheep barn and filled it with leaves. When I checked on sheep this morning, I didn't see him. I went in the barn looking and there he was, the ewe dug out a nest and he was buried in leaves, sung and warm.


----------



## Xerocles

This is a non-entry entry. Just an update. NOTHING happened today. Kits still alive, fat, and wiggly. Mama still a little nervous but not too much. Salvadore offered me a cigar.
Gosh, I never DREAMED I would be so happy about boring, nothing happening days.


----------



## Xerocles

My poor confused bunny! Today is Wednesday. She kindled Sat night/Sunday morning. No fur pulled. None. Now this morning there was a good sized clump of fur (about 1 handful) in the nestbox, but on the other end from the kits. I moved it to cover the kits. But not sure a handful of fur, three days after birth is very significant. Well, maybe she is learning for next time. Luckily the weather has been really mild.


----------



## Mini Horses

Isn't this her first litter?    Next time may be more text book.  Sounds like she's on chapter 4 now...….why didn't she get to read it last month???


----------



## Baymule

Nothing days can be good days too. We go from work, up early, run hard all day at warp speed, home at night, trying to shut our brain down so we can sleep, to AALLLLLLL day with whatever we want or don't want to do. It gives you that precious time to look in a nest box and smile at fat round tummies, warm snug little bunnies in their nest. Isn't life grand?


----------



## Xerocles

Well, the kits are dead. All 5. They were 5 days old.  Last night the temp got down to 33f. Mama never pulled any fur to speak of, but they were in several inches of hay, nice & dry. But for some reason, they always stayed in the front part of the box, and not in the covered back. I suspect that with the temps dropping, Mama stayed in the box, and suffocated or smashed them.
I am right now taking advice I heard on here. They're in my bathroom, with the space heater turned up. They're not dead til they're WARM and dead. But I don't hold out any hope. I did catch them before rigor had set in.
But, this was my (and the doe's) training litter. We'll do better next time.
Thanks for following along and for the advice and support.


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## thistlebloom

Bummer. Sorry to hear that.


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## B&B Happy goats

Sorry .....


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> My poor confused bunny! Today is Wednesday. She kindled Sat night/Sunday morning. No fur pulled. None. Now this morning there was a good sized clump of fur (about 1 handful) in the nestbox, but on the other end from the kits. I moved it to cover the kits. But not sure a handful of fur, three days after birth is very significant. Well, maybe she is learning for next time. Luckily the weather has been really mild.


Pictures please


----------



## Duckfarmerpa1

Xerocles said:


> Well, the kits are dead. All 5. They were 5 days old.  Last night the temp got down to 33f. Mama never pulled any fur to speak of, but they were in several inches of hay, nice & dry. But for some reason, they always stayed in the front part of the box, and not in the covered back. I suspect that with the temps dropping, Mama stayed in the box, and suffocated or smashed them.
> I am right now taking advice I heard on here. They're in my bathroom, with the space heater turned up. They're not dead til they're WARM and dead. But I don't hold out any hope. I did catch them before rigor had set in.
> But, this was my (and the doe's) training litter. We'll do better next time.
> Thanks for following along and for the advice and support.


Oh my goodness.  That’s sad. That’s how I found the kits I lost this week too   I’m sorry dear


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Hey there...haven heard from you...how are you?  Seems like you’re taking this kind of rough.  I’m really sorry.  I know how hard it is.  The first time we got sick kits I nursed them and tried everything...sometimes...we just can’t fix it. I’m sorry.


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## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Hey there...haven heard from you...how are you?  Seems like you’re taking this kind of rough.  I’m really sorry.  I know how hard it is.  The first time we got sick kits I nursed them and tried everything...sometimes...we just can’t fix it. I’m sorry.


Not taking it too hard. Yeah, disappointed, but I just take a different tac than a lot of ppl on here. They were animals that were going to die in 8-10 wks anyway. Life sucks sometimes, but that's life.
At least there was no worry or fretting over them. Last night they were fine. This morning they were gone. Oh, I tried the warm them up thing, but from the way they were flattened, it was obvious Mama squished them.
Thanks for your thoughts and concern. I haven't been online all day cause I had to go out of town to rescue a friend from an abusive boyfriend.


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## Baymule

I have ram lambs that I castrate and name Dinner. When I lose one, it doesn’t make me sit down and cry, but I still don’t like it. I get where you are coming from. Better luck with the next ones.


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## Xerocles

Well, well. It's been a whole month since I came here. Winter kinda got me. I've been in a holding pattern. Lets catch up.
Cruella is cuddles now. Not quite "please pick me up and pet me" cuddles, but so far from the attack rabbit she was when I got her that she deserved a new name.
Honey Bunny is pregs again. Hopefully she'll get it right this time and no more squished babies.
I have two new additions. Drove to NC and picked them up today. Champagne d'Argents. My dream rabbits. He is 10 weeks and she is 8 weeks. So, they'll be pets, spoiled and pampered for about 4 months until they get breeding age.
His mama is a grand champion. And her daddy is a grand champion. They're prouder of their ancestry than I am of mine.
For those who don't know Champagnes, they are born black and shed to a beautiful silver. These guys are in transition.


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## Baymule

Your dream rabbits!!!! They are gorgeous!!! I'm so happy for you, those will be some very loved and spoiled rabbits.


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## thistlebloom

Very nice!  They are in the shedding process? They're gorgeous!


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## B&B Happy goats

Congratulations,  they are beautiful


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## Duckfarmerpa1

I see the trip went well!  They are sooo cute!!  Congrats!!  Any names yet?  So they will be totally silver?  I didn’t know you had ‘dream’ rabbits....is the 8year old little girl coming out of you?


----------



## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I see the trip went well!  They are sooo cute!!  Congrats!!  Any names yet?  So they will be totally silver?  I didn’t know you had ‘dream’ rabbits....is the 8year old little girl coming out of you?


Names? The buck is BB (buck B). As, in my official paperwork, the Cali buck is BA. Names (like Salvadore) are nicknames acquired by the individual animals themselves. Not enough time for that yet. Thus the doe is DC.
I often ACT like an 8 yr old (so I am told) and it's "the thing" for us guys to get in touch with our "feminine" side......so yes, I suppose the 8yr old girl IS coming out in me.  But, Champagnes have the traits I want in meat rabbits-terminal weight, grow-out rate, meat to bone ratio, etc., and unlike MOST "purebreds" near me, these have been bred selectively, with strict culling, to have repeatable genetic characteristics. Plus, yes, I do find  their color to be more aesthetically pleasing (yes, by adulthood they are totally silver)than most meat rabbit breeds. AND they are somewhat difficult to find. Thus the "dream". Kinda like your mini pigs. Before I found these (2 hours away) the closest I could find (through the ARBA) were in Jersey...a  two DAY trip. Lucky for me, this guy "retired" from Jersey (he's been raising this breed since the 1950s) to escape that self- same weather you're enjoying.


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## Baymule

I love to see dreams come true, especially when channeling one's inner Disney Princess!  Any names such as Unicorn and Rainbow coming up?


----------



## Xerocles

Baymule said:


> I love to see dreams come true, especially when channeling one's inner Disney Princess!  Any names such as Unicorn and Rainbow coming up?


Unicorn......hmmmmmm. Kinda like that. Hmmmmm. But, the gf brought them in inside yesterday. Took two hours to catch the doe again. I was thinking maybe Houdini. (Or should I reserve that for a future goat?)


----------



## Baymule

Houdini sounds like a goat name to me!


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## Xerocles

So....the two new bunnies got to spend 3 nights inside. So GF could "tame" them. They weren't bad. Just not used to that level of attention.
My justification for allowing them inside is they were born in,and accustomed to, a completely enclosed shed ....and home here is a covered shed with no walls. Fur coat or not, 27f last night seemed a little extreme for bunnies accustomed to an enclosed space. But they're in a main growout cage now, but with a nice bunch of hay to snuggle into.
Oh, they have names now. Elie and Arsene. 30 mins of GF looking up French names.
AND Cuddles (formerly Cruella) finally reached the point that I could pick her up and transfer her into Salvadore's cage without fear of losing any of my digits. Only TWO MONTHS of acclimatization. Not sure how the breeding went. Wish I had more experience. After first mounting and falloff, she screamed twice. She never seemed "into" it....couldn't really tell if she raised or not. But Salvadore was really giving it the ole college try! About 20 mins together and I observed over 7 mountings. Let you know in a month. Entered it in the computer as a breeding.


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## Baymule

Yeah, I think that qualifies as a breeding! It sounds like your GF really likes the rabbits, that's great.


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## Xerocles

Well! Day 31 for Hunny, the NZred, who squashed her 1st litter. 7:15 this morning. No Nest, no fur. No kits. Belly dragging pregnant. Grrrrr. 
1st litter...newby, confused. Got a pass. Second litter, she's beginning to look a lot like barbeque. Unfortunately the Champagnes won't be old enough to breed until June. And depending on the weather, it might be too hot. This rabbit program is getting off to a slow and rocky start. At least I'm getting a good supply of cold fertilizer.
10 days to go for Cuddles (former Cruella). She's so long of body (great backstrap), pregnancy isn't obvious. And while she has calmed down a lot..still not friendly enough for inexperienced me to try palpatation. Patience!


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## Jesusfreak101

Lol i know that feeling my doe was due last week and yesterday she began pulling fur (tried to palpat. Her but nothing i could feel). Funny part is i rented her thinking she just didn't take. Go figure.


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## Xerocles

7:15 day 32 for Hunny. No nest building. No fur pulling. Belly still dragging. ???


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## Duckfarmerpa1

I have two rabbits...old timers at this...they are on like, day 34-36?  I’m not stressing....they are as fat a houses...definitely pregnant...perhaps they are just taking there good old sweet time?  Only problem is, these bunnies were supposed to be ready around Easter...that’s shot.  Oh well....  I have one..1st time false pretenses...neext...five dead kits...this time...still nothing and she was due on Sunday.  She’s grumpy too.  If she doesn’t deliver a big healthy liter, I told Chris he can eat her.  I have at least 40+ rabbits right now and wayyyyy too much work right now.  I want to buy 4 ducklings.  But I don’t even have the time for that??  What?  No time for ducklings...me?!  Hopefully tomorrow, or soon you’ll wake up to a nice liter..plus, they don’t always go at night...so check throughout the day.  I had one go during the day and she needed help.  It was lucky I had checked.  A big kit was stuck.  Not sure how long.  He didn’t make it, but after he was out, the rest come flooding out just fine!


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## Mini Horses

Xerocles said:


> . I was thinking maybe Houdini. (Or should I reserve that for a future goat?)




Reserve it!!!


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## Xerocles

WE HAVE KITS! Day 33. 7 born, sometime between 7pm and 7 am. All apparently healthy and SUPER squirmy (had trouble collecting and counting). Mama showed zero interest in nest building as of dark last night, but made a beautiful nest, and pulled copious quantity of fur (unlike last time with no nest and no fur.....she's learning). Now if she just avoids squashing them. Fingers crossed.








Yeah, I know that last one isn't a rabbit. One of the Runner ducklings I got on Thursday. Just because.


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## B&B Happy goats

you got your bunnies ! ....and your honey is very pretty too ! Congratulations to you


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## Mini Horses

Woohooo…..new babes!!  Lovely.  Bunny, duck & human.   LOL


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## Baymule

That's a really big runner duck holding that baby duck. LOL LOL She's lovely, how does she feel about getting closed up in the garden to eat bugs?

The kits are adorable, congrats on the litter!


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## thistlebloom

Yay! Kits at last! Nice pics of all your buddies.


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## Xerocles

So far so good. Day 11 for the bunnies. Eyes open. Active as heck. All 7 made it so far. We are in day 32 for cuddles. I had my doubts from the first, and now I just don't think she took. No signs of Nest making.
I don't care because they're all destined for freezer camp, but Papa is a Californian, Mama a New Zealand Red. Looky what we got. Think I should ask for a paternity test?
Papa


Mama
Babies


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## B&B Happy goats

Very handsome kits you have there !
Don't  give up on Cuddles, my NZ didn't  kindle till day 35 and pulled fur just a hour before


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## Xerocles

Yep on Cuddles. She's Californian, long of body, and hard to tell visually (the NZ looked like she swallowed a softball). But the nest box is still there. Still giving her hay on the cage floor in addition to her hay rack. Nothing to do but wait a few more days to a week and then try again. I entered a note that she didn't seem very cooperative, but I'm new...what do I know?


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## B&B Happy goats

You know more than you give yourself credit for


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## Baymule

Those are some cute kits.


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## Xerocles

SHUDDER! Am I becoming "one of those"? I admit to being a rank novice and asking a ton of questions, trying to get it right the first time. But I swore to myself to never be one of those "My bunny blinked three times in a row, should I call the vet for an emergency house call?" people. Animals are animals. They did fine for eons without us doting on them. Yes, we introduced selective breeding and created certain problems. But Mother Nature its still in charge as far as I am concerned. If an animal can't cope with routine happenings in life, then they don't need to be in my life. Ex..... Everytime someone leaves my house, Nyx, the dog, escorts the car to the end of the driveway. They always roll down the window and ask if she is clear of the car. I tell them not to worry about it...if she is too stupid to get out of the way, then she's too stupid to live anyhow.
And yet, here I am, about to ask a question that quite frankly, I am ashamed to be asking.
My Californian doe was placed with the buck on 2/22/20 (NOT memory here, because mine is lousy..I entered it into the computer as soon as I came inside). So by Thursday or Friday, it was apparent that the breeding didn't take. No big deal. We'd try again this week.
Today, as I was near the cages, I noticed she was lying on her side, which has become habit in the last couple week's, as opposed to stretched out on her belly as she used to do. As I approached the cage, I noticed that she had prominent nipples. As in, sticking out above her fur. Red, her next door neighbor with 2 week old kits, raised up in her cage, and NO NIPPLES SHOWING. (She's feeding well, 7 kits, all keeping fat tummies).
Hmmm....so I watched awhile. Her breathing was regular, and she is especially lethargic....but it HAS been in the upper 70s & 80s this week. Appetite is normal. Water intake is normal. Hay intake is above normal, because I have been putting extra in her cage for nest building and she eats most of it before she shuffles it through the cage bottom. As I watched her ribcage and abdomen rise and fall rhythmically, occasionally I would notice an extra little "bulge" move across her abdomen. Not rhythmically, but sporadically.
It's been 37 days. I don't think she can possibly be pregnant. Thoughts? Observations? Panic?
Oh, in the early AM she is NOT lethargic. Bouncing around the cage like a six month old (she is 21 months).
On a happier note, of the newest kits, I have one precocious little Muppet who has learned to explore his (?) World. He was out when I approached the cage, but scrambled over the front of the box upon my approach. Saw him outside 4 different times today.....each time clambering back to "safety" upon my approach. The other 6 are quite content to "shelter in place". Guess they got the word on the Covid restrictions.


----------



## Baymule

Maybe. Maybe not. It may be time to call the vet. Just joking. She will or she won't.


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## Mini Horses

So -- here's a thought 

I do NOT do rabbits but, this is true for some animals and I may suggest that rabbits can be a part of this group.  Don't know.  there are times when the sperm lives more than the few hours you think.  And there are times when the eggs are not released as fast as you think  Then, they float before attaching..  This can lead to a delay in the "normal" gestation date.    Maybe.....   I mean....you are saying 30 days would be 3/22 and yet, Feb was a couple days short (29 not 31), so if you add that, you are at 3/24 or 3/25....she would now be 1 week over.   It's a stretch but, they don't get nipples for nothing.

Whatever the case, the other kits are adorable!!   No matter their color.  LOL


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Put her in with the buck tommrow for 15 minutes, see if that stimulates  her into labor....


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## Xerocles

Cuddles obviously was NOT preggers. I havent re-bred her OR Red yet. Standard chores and big push for garden infrastructure have left me a little short on getting some "should be done things" done.
But, I have some "newby" questions that I need some advice on.
Red's litter is due to be weaned on Monday. They are eating pellets with gusto for several days now. Plus hay. Plus some of the grass that I put on top of the nest box for Mom, which she spills onto the cage floor. I've read conflicting and confusing opinions about weaning and how to accomplish it. My plan is "cold turkey".  Monday, all 7 go into the growout cage. Period. No "tapering off". Will this hurt Mom?
Next, they have gotten a little grass as I said. I would like to "tractor" them....at least to a limited extent. How long/ how much supplement of hand pulled grass before dumping them pell mell into an "all you can eat" buffet?
And, we all know baby bunnies are cute. But I am sooooo glad these are bound for freezer camp. They are NOT cute. Well, only marginally cute, but certainly not "I'll love you and cherish you always" cute. Blotched up black and white, indeterminate patterns, with some reddish brown undertones in a few places. Kinda like Jack Skellington would come up with if they did a "Nightmare Before Easter".


----------



## thistlebloom

Well we definitely need a picture of your "not cute" bunnies. Trust but verify you know.


----------



## animalmom

I wean in batches, and by that I mean I'll take two kits and put them in the grow out cage, wait a couple days and take two more and put in the grow out cage, and repeat until done.  

Taking all the kits at one time will put your doe in a world of discomfort.  Removing the kits over several days will allow her body to slow down and stop the milk making process.

Will she survive if you take them all at once, yes.  Will she be happy, no.


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## Xerocles

@thistlebloom here ya go. And remember, in the right setting, a good photographer can make even a poor model look good. And I chose the most photogenic one.
Can you say "Waiter, there's a hare in my stew?"










@animalmom. Suggestion taken. 2 moved today, 2 Monday, and 3 about Wednesday.


----------



## Xerocles

Frustration. Not defeat. Just Frustration.
1st litter...Mom crushed. Second litter. (F is supposed to be purebred NZ, 9 mos old, M purebred Californian, 20 mos old). This litter, at 6 weeks, are only weighing abt 1 3/4 lbs. NEVER gonna see 5 lbs at 8 weeks. I've started GIVING the kits away. Oh, not exactly unlimited feed, but feeding (Manna Pro Pro 16%) (and I am still learning-they should have been on Grow @ 18%) 2-3 times a day, and they ALWAYS feel like their bellies are about to pop. Mom has been bed again....so definitely last chance time.
Other doe, Cruella/Cuddles. Didn't take her first breeding at my house, though she is supposedly a proven breeder. Put her in with the buck last week. Definitely not in the mood, but at least not trying to fight the buck. So, what the heck. They got an "overnight" experience. Either she kindles this time or she's history too.
Bargain rabbits. $45 for the trio. Live and learn. They have worked well as learning bunnies. Only 1 more month until my Champagnes are breeding age. At $40/ea. I am expecting great things from them.


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Don be in a rush to give up on them ...it took three kindles for one of our FG rabbits to get her stuff together, now she has twelve to fourteen kits per kindle...and none are even close to 5 lbs at 8 weeks.....


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## Xerocles

Kits born last night/this morning.  Honey. Sparse fur pulled. Temp@ 7:00, 55f. Kits scattered all over the box- cold to touch but still alive. Thank goodness no really cold temps. Put them in a pile & covered with fur and hay. .
Her last litter is almost 10 weeks. Still not close to a harvest weight. Since they're mutts, and not even attractive ones....they're probable give-always. If this next litter doesn't REALLY impress me with growout, Honey isn't long for the rabbitry. At least the Champagnes will be breeding age next month. I haven't weighed them lately...they're HUGE. _maybe _my meat program will finally get some kind of decent start. Oh well...only 5 months into this...and I've learned a lot. But I was sure hoping to be enjoying rabbit for dinner by now.


----------



## Xerocles

Update. Most of this already went into an emergency help thread, but I like to keep this thread up to date for my future history lessons.
It's a little chilly today, low to mid 50's. Sparse fur, an extra layer of hay, thought they'd be ok. Had to go out of town. Back around 5. Kits cold to the touch and moving less than this morning. Into the bathroom with a space heater, the weakest three under my shirt on my belly in the recliner. Couple hours later, bathroom bunnies squirming like crazy. One in my shirt squirmy. Two Warm, but lifeless.
They're back in the nest box. Base of synthetic cotton, extra hay, every scrap of fur I could collect. Not ideal, but out of options.
Mom immediately went into nest box, but not long enough to nurse. At this point, que sera sera.
Mom is history. After weaning, or as soon as I have time if the kits don't make it.


----------



## JHP Homestead

That momma rabbit sounds like she’s going to be delicious.

I’ve only had one first time doe lose her little and it was because I wrote the dates down wrong and she kindled a week earlier than I thought she was supposed to. Never had any issues with does not making a good enough nest to keep kits warm on a 50 degree day either, that’s pretty warm when you’re in a fur blanket. Anyways, just wanted to say that not all first time does are failures and there are lots of good momma rabbits out there. Hopefully your Champagnes will be on board with the program.


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

Do you just have the one meat buck? The buck can make a difference in the kits reaching weight by 8/10/12 weeks too. The litters I've had haven't made it to 5 lbs by 8 weeks, but they are usually there by 10-12 weeks. If your does aren't being good mommas then it might be time to cull, but if it's only their first litters they should get another chance.


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## Xerocles

1 buck I've been using, 20 months old, was in a commercial program that lost its market. Purebred Californian.
1 buck, unproven, 5 months old, pedigreed Champagne d' Argent out of Grand Champion, with lots of hope for the future.
Doe in question, bought at 6 mos, now 1 yr. Supposed pure New Zealand Red (broken). (Planning on "hybrid vigor" for kits. Also have pure Californian doe). Still only about 6 or 7 lbs. Kits are black&white.(pics on previous page) ??? 
Terrible Mom. 1st litter crushed. 2nd litter, almost 3 months, less than 3 lbs. 3rd litter almost no fur pulled, dns, hypothermia in 50f weather.
Mom on the way to the crock pot soon as I have time.
No worries. These were "learner" rabbits. Made my mistakes. Future hope on the QUALITY Champagnes I acquired. Onward and upward.


----------



## Xerocles

Cuddles kindled this morning. 33 days and I was beginning to think another false pregnancy. Her first litter here, though she is an experienced breeder.
9 kits. All healthy pinkies....look exactly like They should, as purebred Californians.
So finally a bright spot for the rabbitry.
Honey It's still hanging out because I've been too busy to dispatch her. Can't even give away her only surviving litter. At only about 2 lbs on the "hoof", looks like they will make "light snack" rabbits.


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

Do the small kits look pretty? Might be able to try to sell them as pets? Otherwise I bet they'd make a good soup or crock pot meal even though they are small. 

Congratulations on the new litter! I'm jealous of your number of kits, the highest I've had is 7, and that's for standard Rex. Hopefully Cuddles is a great mom and keeps those kits fat and happy.


----------



## Xerocles

Larsen Poultry Ranch said:


> Do the small kits look pretty? Might be able to try to sell them as pets? Otherwise I bet they'd make a good soup or crock pot meal even though they are small.
> 
> Congratulations on the new litter! I'm jealous of your number of kits, the highest I've had is 7, and that's for standard Rex. Hopefully Cuddles is a great mom and keeps those kits fat and happy.


There's a pictue on post #145 of this thread. They're ugly. As I described them in that post, they look like they'd be Jack Skellington's pets if they ever made a "Nightmare Before Easter" movie. I've even tried to GIVE them away on social media, and no takers.
Yeah, I've about decided to debone, grind, and make a rabbitburger steak.


----------



## Larsen Poultry Ranch

Xerocles said:


> @thistlebloom here ya go. And remember, in the right setting, a good photographer can make even a poor model look good. And I chose the most photogenic one.
> Can you say "Waiter, there's a hare in my stew?"
> 
> View attachment 72393View attachment 72394View attachment 72395
> 
> @animalmom. Suggestion taken. 2 moved today, 2 Monday, and 3 about Wednesday.


Umm, spotty rabbits are actually desirable as pets. These guys are cute. Let me see if I can tag someone who can maybe help/give pointers for selling as pets.


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## Jesusfreak101

Personally I thought they were cute. But all I have is Californian rabbits  so i like some color.


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

I think it's @Duckfarmerpa1  who is raising rabbits for pets? I've been reading a few different threads recently so I'm hoping I tag the right person.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

Ok, sorry that I’m late to the party...in post #145...what breed?  They look like very very dark magpie..but I know you don’t breed those.....if they were close to magpie, they don’t have the Perf3ct spilt face but they are definitely adorable..and I cannot believe you would say people did not want to buy these bunnies..where the heck are you trying to sell them?  In window stores...where people are not shopping??  Do you do FB?  I can literally walk you through setting up a page to simply sell bunnies...if that is a goal...if not..never mind.  But those are adorable animals!!and you are right...backdrop is key!  Sometimes I put mine in a milk pail, or an egg basket..etc...

ok..how to make spotted rabbits...if you know this..ignore this.  Spots are HIGH,Y DESIRED AS PSETS FOR KIDS!  You need a solid rabbit...like a NZ...,and a California....breed together..and bammmm...all spots!  Now...if you breed a spotted rabbit to a solid...you should get 50% solid, 50% spots...  I could go on with ratios..bu5 it will bore you....color is different..I’m learning about genes and color...you don’t need to worry about genes..but kids and other breeders want color...blue is a desirable color...chocolate...rare..and very desirable....if you get those..keep one.  Oh, the spots ‘lingo’ in the rabbit world...which..I know you know, because I saw the stuff you’ve been reading..but, just in case...it’s called ‘broken’.  
if you want to learn about color in a fast way..got to ARB.com...it’s like a rabbit color cheat sheet🤣. It has all breeds and will teach you how to determine all the fancy dance names, etc...
so you can sound like a smarty pants!  Also..if your getting more into breeding rabbits..buy pedigree...it costs more now...but each one rabbit you buy will multiply..quick and you can sell a young bunny for almost as muc( s a breedin* age rabbit.  If you want a dual purpose..meaning you’d like to sell and eat..look into Flemish giant...as I’ve said, I haven’t been able to read lately, so I’m totally sorry if you already know this, etc. another tip...befriend breeders in your area..,they are very glad to help another breeder..make it someone about an hour away...then there’s really no worry in hurting their business.  I’ve. Even getting a ton of help from other breeders....plus, they have sent other buyers my way when they don’t have a bunny but I do!  I also offer discounts to breeders that i know I want to work with again...and I tell them that....it has really worked to my favor.  Find a good rabbit transport.  I find all of this stuff on FB.....  I don’t have time to run a few hrs for rabbits, etc.  I hired a girl to bring me four Rabbits.....the6 were two hrs away..cost me $30 ...can’t beat that!!  Saved us all that time!!  These are just a few tips.  If you have Facebook...look at my page...C&D Rabbitry.....I just started it about two weeks ago?  And I don’t remember to post daily...but, it’s doing really well!  I, glad you’re kits are doing well...but don’t dare call the kits in post #145. Ugly..they are adorable!!  If you sell Holland Lop..they sell fast..they are a great breed..but you can’t eat them..too small..strictly for breeding purposes.  I’m really glad you are having good luck..oh, hey..don’t give up...as you’ve found out in your reading..rabbits store sperms..like my doe in the winter..and the6 can take up to 40 days to kindle.  I actually wait 17 days to rebreed after a nightmare on day 46.  Take more pictures!! 🤣❤️🐰👍😀👍❤️


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## Xerocles

@Larsen Poultry Ranch and @Duckfarmerpa1 
Thanks for the concern AND help.
I have the rabbits for MY peace of mind and to put some meat in the freezer. I don't want to deal with "pet people".....or pet rabbits. I don't sell. If I need to make money, I'll go back to work. I had someone call me yesterday, practically begging me to come back.
These were "learner rabbits". I got done by their breeder. Oh well. That's part of the learning too. I will eventually eat these little mongrels....it will just cost me more in food than it should.
The other learner Rabbit, Cuddles/Cruella. Someone told me months ago...SOME does Mellow out when they kindle. NOT CRUELLA! She has gone berserk. As in vicious. As in, I'm literally scared to put my hand in her cage, even with leather gloves. As in, I'll let her wean this litter, and will dispatch her INSIDE her cage. Maybe not the most humane dispatch, because accurate shot placement will not be possible, but seriously, I am afraid of that rabbit.
I spent much of today with the rabbits. Originally, I had both rows of cages facing West, facing front to back as it were. It worked, but I never enclosed the rabbitry. Suddenly, between my dog and chickens, I realized I was getting NO rabbit poop for my garden. And that was a big reason for wanting the rabbits in the first place. So Now, the cages all face each other, to the center walkway. BIG job alone. Tying each cage at each corner, lowering each corner 4 inches at a time, then, turned around, same process back into the air. Also installed a gravity feed water system. The kits alone were going through a gallon and a half a day, so I was filling 2/3 times, and feeling guilty when I'd check and they were out.  Now, 5 gallons each morning and I shouldn't have to worry.
Tomorrow, I wrap it in wire, and should be good to go for awhile.
Two more weeks and I can breed the Champagne doe. And I may keep a doe from Cruella's litter. She's big and meaty....and the kits LOOK like pure Californians, so far. Hopefully they won't inherit her bad temper.


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

Temper seems to be hit and miss. I've got a doe who is super friendly and her kits seem very curious and friendly. A second doe is skittish and hands off but I can pet her occasionally; the kits from this doe are also skittish, but this last batch I fostered two to the first doe and while they are still more skittish than the foster siblings, they are a lot more friendly than the ones raised by the birth mom.

Maybe try handling the kits a bunch after you wean and hopefully they will be more friendly than the mom. I've found oats are good motivation to kits and make them tolerate being petted. Plus the oats help them gain weight.


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## Duckfarmerpa1

I use the rolled oats too...big help!  I also wear a nail pouch..for my phone, etc..I put a kit in the pouch while I’m doing bunny chores...they don’t move an inch..they ge5 used to being held a bit.  So you got the gravity watered...lucky you!  I want one...but Chris put me in charge of look8ng up all the materials..and I simply keep forgetting...maybe I’ll remember after reading this?  Ducks eat rabbit Pooh too..🤣🤣


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## Xerocles

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I use the rolled oats too...big help!  I also wear a nail pouch..for my phone, etc..I put a kit in the pouch while I’m doing bunny chores...they don’t move an inch..they ge5 used to being held a bit.  So you got the gravity watered...lucky you!  I want one...but Chris put me in charge of look8ng up all the materials..and I simply keep forgetting...maybe I’ll remember after reading this?  Ducks eat rabbit Pooh too..🤣🤣



Waterer. I bought a complete kit on Amazon. 20 BRASS nipples with tees, etc, plus connector for the water source (5 gal bucket in my case) plus 100 ft of black hose. I had to get the bucket and a garden hose to get to the bucket. Otherwise. One shot, one kill. $55 +free shipping. From rabbitnipples.com funny thing though. They didn't offer a "plug" for the terminal end. I squeezed it together with a pair of needlenose pliers and melted it with my lighter. No leaks anywhere so far. Only one day, but totally pleased.
One "add-on" I want to do. Install a large diameter tube for a "sight glass" on the bucket, so I know at a glance how much water I have.


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## Finnie

Does anybody know where @Xerocles has gone? I miss reading about his rabbits, runner ducks and garden.


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