# My 2 Goats are coughing...



## Chicos Mama (Sep 19, 2010)

I have my 2 Nubian Kids around 9 months old now. 
Violet my dry doe has had a slight cough for about 3 weeks now...(she only coughs after running) with no temp. and eating and drinking fine. She has been having very soft poop (kindda like a cow patty!) on and off as well. I take her off grain for a day when this happens and it seems to clear up the poop issue but her cough remains.
Now her Brother, my wether Chico has begun coughing as well, and today he had scours...a couple doses of pepto seemed to help.
I checked for dusty hay...nope. They have been eating  Alphalfa Hay since day one, so i doubt its an allergy.
I also worn them regularly with Mollys Wormer.  I did give them each 1 dose of GoatGuard about 2 weeks ago, but i didnt know i was supposed to do it for 7 days straight, rest and repeat. WOW...that could get expensive!
Does this sound like *Lungworm*? 
I live in Arizona where its very dry and hot. I havent been able to located a vet who knows diddly about goats either to request a fecal float...people here just seem to "wing it" or simply dont give a rats behind! 

Ive read ya`ll recommending Ivomectin... Is it safe to give them this with all the other wormers they have had? Can you "Over Worm" your goat?
And all i can find here is Ivomectin for Cattle/Swine or for Horses... can I use either of these and at what dose?
Violet weighs in at a _chubby_ 80lbs. and Chico is a _rotund_ 110 lbs.


Thanks for any advice!


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## babsbag (Sep 19, 2010)

I have only been raising goats for 3 years but I have a great vet that has her own goat herd and she told me that if you treated a goat everytime they coughed they would be on meds most of thier lives. Last fall I got a new buck and wether and they both coughed for months. I did convince my vet to give me an antibiotic for the buck but it didn't help at all. If finally went away. Then one of my does started doing the same thing, and she hacked all winter, but not a wet cough, it finally went away too.

This fall I have 2 of this year's kids that are coughing. So now I just look at the other possible symptoms. No fever, stiil eating, acting ok = not sick with a cough, just being a goat. They seem to have very sensitive respiratory symptoms.

As far as the worms, I don't worm unless I see the worms. Any vet should be able to do the fecal float for you. I live in a very dry part of California and my goats are not on irrigated pasture and eat their hay up off the ground and my does that are 1.5 years old have no worms at all. I did the fecal and then had it done by a good friend that is known as the "poop lady" in the goat world around here and there were no worms to be found. And I have never wormed her. I also tested my chickens, and no worms there either.

I have never been concerned with lungworm because wet, low-lying pastures and cool, damp weather favor the development of lungworm and where I live we just don't have that problem. I would think that the same would be true of most of Arizona. I wouldn't be too quick to treat for worms. There is an ever increasing problem of worms becoming resistant to the medication and it is because of the constant use. It really needs to stop unless there is a clear indication of worms. IMO

I would just keep watching your goats and if they act fine in other regards then I would just wait it out. Mine occaisionally get scours, but it has always been food related. Then can get cocci though, even as an older goat so that is something to think about when you see scours.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 20, 2010)

Maybe it could be becuase it is just very dry?  Lungworm is definatley from wet and moist areas...the "slug" my least favorite animal!   carries it in our parts...which thrive in a very moist enviroment...so in NH we give them beer and they go away!! LOL....

And yes you can over worm...the worms can and will become resistant..its always best to get a fecal done.  Im sorry you cant find any vets in the area...thats too bad...I would keep looking...any colleges around that have vet programs...they usually have programs avail..call...we have UNH which has a coop ext, they will even test our hay to give us feed ratios in it...its a nice service...they offer alot of help..I would keep looking...

Good luck with the goaties...hope thier cough get better soon!


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## ()relics (Sep 20, 2010)

Goats cough...usually nothing to worry about but to eliminate any potential "bad" causes I would:  
Take a fecal sample to a vet for an fecal float exam.  If there is a harmful level of any parasite, treat with a parasite specific dewormer. 
Take the goats temperature.  If there is large elevation some sort of infection is a possibility.  Treat with an antibiotic.
Some goats have allergies just like people.  Certain times throughout the year they cough nothing you can do about it except Benedryl and then only if the coughing was REALLY bad.
Just to add ANY vet can do a fecal egg count...same process as dogs and cats...They may not know they can do it But they can.
Rereading the previous post let me clarify something...Every Goat In The World Has Worms or at least eggs present in their systems at one time or another.  You only need to worry if the eggs present are at or nearing overpopulation levels.  Your vet may very well find eggs in your fecal sample, and he should, but the population levels and species will determine your treatment route.  If you don't find worm eggs in a fecal float you didn't do the test the right way.   Always a FAMACHA color test is an option just to insure your goats aren't too anemic.

_Edited for flaming_


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## Chicos Mama (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks so much for the fast replies!  It all makes sense too...We haven`t had rain in over 65 days here, so DRY is an appropriate word for it...and dusty too.
And speaking of Dusty...I forgot to mention that my goats share a very large pen with 13 chickens and a duck (who thinks shes a chicken) they like to sometimes bed down in with the chickens in their shed at night as well and not in their own goat shed. 
All chicken feed it put away before they are allowed to go in there for the night, so I dont worry about them eating it. BUT...this morning was chicken coop cleaning day... and O.M.G. the dust was unbeliveable as i raked!  Between Pine shavings, D.E. , Sweet Stall and just plain ol` chicken dander... I WAS COUGHING! And they sleep in there! So my guess is this is my "cough-culprit!"

I am relived to hear that its probably Not Lungworms, but I will find a Vet and ask for a fecal to be done. Is it also a fecal check for Lungworms as well? 

Also, Im pretty sure i found the reason for Chicos poop "situation"...I found an Brand new *EMPTY* box of Vanilla wafers in his sleep stall this morning  (sneaky lil` bugger!) His poop isnt watery like yesterday, now its more like a soft cow-patty, so it seems to be working its way out...so to speak. Another dose of Pepto cant hurt i suppose...he sure likes the chewables (bet he thinks its candy, lil` piggy!)

Can anybody address the Ivomectin question please... Which is safe for goats...Cattle/Swine or Horses? Both are the injectable kind. Those are the only 2 choices my feed store has or I can order the appropriate one.
And dosage reccomendations please.

I will keep you posted on the coughing, lets see if it settles down once it cools down here and rains some 

Thanks again everyone!


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## jodief100 (Sep 20, 2010)

Ivomectin injectable for cattle- NOT SWINE.  You may have to order it.  I use 1cc/ 25lbs.   Give it to them orally, not injected.  

If the poopies don't clear up soon, try scour-halt for swine.

Try to get a fecal, using wormers when you don't need to can be very bad.  If you can't get a fecal check the underside of their eyelids.  If they are bright pink or red, they are probably fine.  Light pink they need worming.  White, they need worming badly but carefully.  Search bottle jaw and follow the advice for that.  I doubt they are bad if they are eating and going potty fine.  

With it that dry I doubt there are worms at all.


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## babsbag (Sep 20, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Rereading the previous post let me clarify something...Every Goat In The World Has Worms or at least eggs present in their systems at one time or another.  You only need to worry if the eggs present are at or nearing overpopulation levels.  Your vet may very well find eggs in your fecal sample, and he should, but the population levels and species will determine your treatment route.  If you don't find worm eggs in a fecal float you didn't do the test the right way.  For anyone to say that there are/were no signs of ANY WORMS present in a fecal sample, Is absolutely wrong. For anyone to say there were "no worms "in a fecal float is , not only wrong but idiotic,  except maybe a lung worm.   Always a FAMACHA color test is an option just to insure your goats aren't too anemic.


Sorry to disagree. I did my own fecal and no worms, and I know how to do them. Being an unbeliever in the results, I collected fresh poop and took it to someone that teaches people how to do them, and guess what, no worms. All we found was a thread off a tarp, 1 cocci, and some undigested grain. She did a fecal at the same time on one of her goats that has irrigated pasture, and low and behold, there were worms. She asked me when I wormed last, and I said "never". She was a little surprised so we did another float, and no worms or eggs.

So is it possible that my doe has worms and decided not to pass any in her poop that day or the day before? I don't know. Will I check her again in a few months? Of course. Will I worm her since after all, all goats have worms? Not a chance. Do I know how to do fecal floats and know what worms look like? definately. Do I appreciate a complete stranger implying otherwise and saying that I am being idiotic? I'll let you decide.


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## ()relics (Sep 20, 2010)

babsbag said:
			
		

> Do I know how to do fecal floats and know what worms look like? definately. Do I appreciate a complete stranger implying otherwise and saying that I am being idiotic? I'll let you decide.


If you know how to do a fecal float then why in the world would you say you know what a worm looks like?  I always thought a fecal float calculated parasite eggs per gram.  Also fairly sure you don't need a microspcope to see a worm...Now You decide


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## babsbag (Sep 20, 2010)

You are correct, I don't need a microscope to see worm segments in the poop, but it is something I look for when I do the float. I usually don't get that up close and personal with my goats pellets so it is a good time to dig through and look. I also look for undigested food so I can quit wasting my money on food they aren't processing, such as whole wheat. I should have said "eggs" and oocysts for the ccocci that we found

Believe what you want as I know what I saw; the same results twice, no eggs.  But do you think it is polite to imply that people are idiots for not seeing any eggs in a fecal float, especially when you weren't around to watch and say differently? Sorry, I am just a tad offended.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

babsbag said:
			
		

> Believe what you want as I know what I saw; the same results twice, no eggs.  But do you think it is polite to imply that people are idiots for not seeing any eggs in a fecal float, especially when you weren't around to watch and say differently? Sorry, I am just a tad offended.


To be fair, that's not what relic said...what relic was expressing, I believe, was the opinion that anyone who would look for actual worms in a fecal, and who wouldn't deworm because they don't see any actual worms, is an idiot..  Reason being, they should be looking for eggs -- not worms.

Is it true that we need to be looking for eggs instead of worms?...yes.  Would I call that person an idiot?...probably, but I'm pretty reknown for being cranky and obnoxious.  If I did call that person an idiot, though, you can rest assured that I'd have done so knowing I could have said something less offensive but chose not to...probably because I had my panties in a knot over something totally unrelated.

Now...let's get to the truth of the matter.

The truth of the matter is that you're both right on some points, and wrong on others..  Period.

For instance, it's not true to say that if you don't find worm eggs on a fecal, you screwed it up..  Some goats will have clean fecals..  If they're on a drylot, being fed grain and hay exclusively from an elevated rack, I'd _expect_ a FEC of *zero*.  Anything more than zero that would be baffling, frankly.  And there are also times when worms should be dormant in the host...those times could very possibly reveal a FEC of zero as well.

As for whether it's possible that a goat can decide when to pass worm eggs in their feces, as one of you kinda sorta sarcastically mentioned...well, of course not.  Unfortunately, though, that question's not quite as rhetorical as it was intended to be because the worms themselves _can and do decide_ when to lay eggs and when NOT to lay eggs.  Oops..  So can it really be said that a goat with a FEC of zero is worm free?...nope.  Without cutting the goat open to do an actual worm count, there's literally no way to distinguish between a goat that's worm-free and one that's overrun with _dormant_ worms.

So, you're both wrong and you're both right.


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## savingdogs (Sep 21, 2010)

This thread interests me because I've been researching worming in goats as well.

While I'm no expert and I'm here to learn, the veterinary text that I am currently reading very clearly states that in the presence of no worms, the goat is succeptable to an infestation of worms when it does encounter them because it will have no resistance to them. It states that seeing a low egg count is best because it shows that the goat has a few worms but has built up its own system to offset them, and THAT is what you want to see. 

It said goats without any worms need to be very carefully introduced to other goats as wormy goats could make them very sick. Not saying to GIVE them worms, but to be careful!

Perhaps one of you goat experts can let me know if this would apply to Chicos Mama. I hope everyone on this thread can remain polite so this does not become a thread about who insulted whom, can we keep the topic to coughing goats and lungworms?


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## adoptedbyachicken (Sep 21, 2010)

savingdogs said:
			
		

> I hope everyone on this thread can remain polite so this does not become a thread about who insulted whom, can we keep the topic to coughing goats and lungworms?


Excellent idea!  Yes, let's review the rules that include:

3. No Flaming (verbally attacking people or groups of people - e.g. a profession, an organization, a company.)

5. No teasing, mocking, ridiculing, or otherwise making fun at other member's expense. 

And then carry on with the thread on topic.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Sep 21, 2010)

Edited to remove moderated material


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## ()relics (Sep 21, 2010)

...Big Hats No Cattle...take advice from whoever you like...and just a quote from one of our favorite unmentionables :


> Now, the big question, how many eggs can the goat have and be OK. How many mean an infestation? ALL GOATS HAVE SOME WORMS, so, do not panic if you find worm eggs in the sample, that is normal. There is no shame if your goat has worms. You just don't want lots of eggs. It's hard for me to tell you exactly what number is OK and what number of eggs is bad. Every situation is different. A healthy goat that has built up natural resistance to worms can handle a larger wormload than an unhealthy goat. The goal is not to have your goats be totally worm free, but just to maintain a consistent low wormload, with the goat showing no signs of parasite infestation. It this way, the goat builds natural resistance/immunity to worms. I do not worry about anything under 10 eggs. If I count in the teens, I still may not worry too much, depending on the health of the goat. If I counted over 20 eggs, I would probably treat the goat with a double dose of wormwood wormer for 3 days.


http://fiascofarm.com/goats/fecals.htm
Personally I question my own source but Everyone else seems to think this person has all the answers...on this statement we agree, not much else.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2010)

Some goats can manage worms better than other goats, either through outright resistance or through resilience to the detrimental effect of the worms.  

If I had to choose between purchasing two goats -- one on a drylot w/ a FEC of zero, and another on pasture who's rarely dewormed yet maintains a low FEC even during peak worm season -- I'm taking the low FEC goat.  Reason being, it's going to have access to pasture (and, therefore, worms) when I get it here, and it's already proving to have some resistance.  If I were going to put it on a drylot and feed it hay and grain exclusively, though, it wouldn't really matter either way.

So as for which is better, I guess it really all just depends on what you intend to do with the goat..  

As for the OP's coughing goats, I wouldn't suspect lungworm simply because she's not in lungworm country.  Goats have to eat snails and slugs in order to get lungworms, and the hot, dry conditions of Arizona wouldn't *seem* to lend themselves to an abundance of snails and slugs.  You see that sort of thing more in the Pacific Northwest and other places where it's temperate and rains a lot.

My guess....dust+heat+exercise->cough.  _I do that myself._

As for the scour, who knows..  Most cases of scour can be traced back to a handful of conditions:  dietary, bacterial, coccidia, intestinal worms..  

If it's a simple dietary scour, the goat should act more or less normally -- maybe a little blah, but not overly depressed -- and the scour will often be really green in color..  The only dietary-related scour that would really concern me would be due to acidosis from grain overload, but usually those scours aren't green, are more profuse, and the goat won't act normally..  Acidosis can be deadly, not to mention painful, and the goat will demonstrate its discomfort by looking 'roached up,' grinding teeth, etc..

A bacterial scour is like dysentary, basically..  It's analogous to true food poisoning in humans, which goes far beyond simply making an ill-advised "run for the border" at 1am after a long hiatus from spicy food.  What that 'run' gives you is *a case of the runs,* which is basically the simple dietary scour mentioned above..  It's totally different from actual food poisoning, from which you get fever, the chills, profuse "dirty water" diarrhea, and basically feel like you wish you'd just go ahead and die to get it over with.  _That's_ a bacterial scour.  Bacterial scours -- e.coli or salmonellosis, for instance -- kill both humans and goats alike.  They're nothing to be messed around with.

Coccidia?...two fat goats at 9mo of age with no obvious stressor having loose-ish poops doesn't scream coccidiosis to me.  If we were talking about two kids under 6mo who weren't thriving and who were having dark, foul, watery, bloody, and/or mucousy poops, then yeah..  This particular situation, however?...not so much.  Possible, I guess, but I wouldn't bet on it..

It's been my experience that there are intestinal worms out there which can lead to diarrhea, and I don't just mean tapeworms.  I've never seen a tape, but I have seen on-again/off-again scours in FAMACHA-awesome goats that clear after a "uhhh, maybe it's worms?"-based deworming.  I can also tell you that some instestinal worms actually do thrive in the bedding of stalls or simply in the dirt, unlike the barberpole which requires grass to complete its life-cycle.  So, even if the goats are off pasture, intestinal worms are something I'd probably still at least consider to be a possibility here..

Would I deworm them?...probably, if they haven't been dewormed with much other than herbals.  I don't believe in herbal dewormers, though, and that's just me..  But I'd probably give an ivomec 1% injectable med orally at a rate of 3-4ml/100lbs of goat, just to be on the safe side.  I'd also consider treating them with another class of dewormer -- a white dewormer like Safe-Guard or Valbazen, for instance -- just to cover any kind of worm that isn't covered by Ivomec..  Tapes are a good example..  The dosage I use with Safe-Guard these days is 1ml/10lbs of goat, 1x/day for 3 days.

Will deworming solve the problem?...hell, I dunno.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Could be strictly dietary, which should resolve on it's own, or perhaps with the help of a little pepto and being kept off grain for a few days and then re-introduced slowly..  Or it could be a really mild bacterial scour that looks more dietary than anything else...I've had that happen, too, at least as evidenced by goats that kept a "dietary" scour for DAYS only to clear up with a short round of oral antibiotics.  Or it could be a very minor coccidia flare up for some reason, which looks dietary and will be cleared up by the goat with no intervention..

The bottom line, unfortunately, is that raising goats can be a real PITA and sometimes you just kinda have to throw something at the wall to see what sticks.


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## reinbeau (Sep 21, 2010)

Yet another goat thread closed due to unnecessary sarcasm.


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