# Sheep vs goat..



## secuono (Sep 21, 2011)

In the future I want to get sheep or maybe goats, I cannot decide. Both break/jump/squeeze through fencing, ugh! Mini goats are adorable, but I also love the Ole English Southdown Babydoll sheep. 

W/sheep I'd breed to sell, sell wool when possible and meat from any extras that just won't sell or too many rams. _Not sure, you can drink their milk, no?_ We aren't much of milk drinkers, I've heard wonderful things about raw milk, so who knows. 

Goats seem to sell all the time for $150 female, $100 males all the time. But I really wouldn't use them for much else. They could be just pets and eat the brush I don't get to and such. 

I'm not sure where I would keep the breeding ram, we do have a fenced easement that I could add a shelter to and he could live there. Again why I'm waiting, not sure if the easement is ours, the evil neighbors or is no longer an easement but one of ours actual property. 

They will live along side the horses, seems like either will be fine if they leave the horses alone. _Which would be closer to the horse's diet? I think sheep cannot have minerals w/copper b/c of overdose or something, was that true for horses too?_

The fence we have is 4ft field fencing. I would rather not add or redo the fencing. Already started adding boards along the fence line that divides the backyard and the field. The pony loves to see if he can squeeze his fat butt through this or that, lol. Also not interested in getting a guarding dog, he would be an issue with my dogs and other animals that may get into the field. The Dober likes to patrol the field when I let him out to the backyard. He keeps hawks and other birds he doesn't know from landing. Nearly 5 acres, big barn, lots of trees and shade, mountain and flat valley. Biggest thing that is out there is red and/or gray fox. Horse farms all around, cows in the back, yam farm in the back and the back/left neighbors have mounted fox hunting from time to time. Yep, mounted on real horses with real guns and real 20-30 hound dogs! My mare is always scared furless over them, lol. 
_Would goats/sheep more readily graze on the hilly and more steep areas?_ Horses just trot up or down to the flatter areas and make paths. 

Right, so my biggest issues are them jumping/escaping and predation. But I'm not sure if foxes go for goats/sheep, maybe their young, though. 

Help, insight, ideas?


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 21, 2011)

as far as I know, there is absolutly now value in wool these days.  Not saying you should  have sheep, just saying I wouldn't expect a market for the wool.  

I see fox all the time in our pastures, hasn't been a problem for us. 

Goats will go to the highest point to graze. We are having to  fence off the highest point of our property to force them to graze the lower points, otherwise they will overgraze one area.   So the answer to you question is yes, they will graze the steep areas, not exactly sure about the lambs.  Probably more so than a horse.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 21, 2011)

The American wool market is increasing!  I just read an article today about how there is a higher demand now for American wool and lamb, and there is a desire for everyone to increase their flock numbers!  That being said, if you have to pay someone to shear you can kiss your wool profits out the window if you only have a small flock.  

As far as escaping goes, sheep are MUCH easier to fence than goats.  Field fence is a pretty good fence, and you'll have an even easier time keeping any animal in if you can add a hot wire to it, but you don't have to for sheep. They may stand on the fence though (with their front 2 feet) and cause it to sag. A hot wire would prevent this.  

You are right that sheep should not have added copper in their diet, in any form (minerals or grain). Goats would be a better choice if they'll have access to the horses' feed.  If they're separate, sheep would be fine.  

Sheep are great for grazing hilly areas.  If you keep a small flock, you may be able to "rent" a ram for breeding each year.  It's really not very nice to keep a single sheep, so if you kept a ram you really should keep either 2 rams or a ram and a wether (castrated male) so they have company.  Or, you could always buy a ram lamb each fall and them sell him or put him in the freezer after his services have been provided.  

If you want sheep but don't want to deal with shearing, look into hair sheep breeds like Katahdins, Dorpers, etc.  They're hardy sheep and don't require yearly shearing.  

Good luck to you!


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## secuono (Sep 21, 2011)

I choose the babydoll for several reasons, their size, dual purpose and their personality. I'm learning how to trim my own horse's hooves, so learning how to shear, even w/some bad hair days, is fine with me. 
I've only found 2 farms with this breed, I'm not sure if either would have a ram to borrow. How would you introduce him to the ewes, for how long? Wouldn't catching a strange ram be hard? 
The wool is just an extra, but I'm sure some people will buy it. I'm also hoping to make pelts from my rabbits, even though they will only fetch a small price. I'm thinking of making blankets out of them like I saw one lady do. 
At what height would they bend the fence, I'm guessing they are trying to get the plants on the other side or above the fence? If I trim them back, will they not bother the fence? I could put up a wood board where they lean on to help the fence last longer. 
The only food the horses get is the grass they graze on and then hay in the dead months. Aren't there feeds for horses w/no copper and such? I gave my horses rolled oats, when I could find/get them, when there was a bit of drought. Sheep can have that, no? 
I want to avoid hot wire, my pony is bound to get caught and really F himself over w/it. He's a total nut when it comes to borders...lol.


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## elevan (Sep 21, 2011)

I believe that your sheep's milk question has not been answered yet.

You can milk sheep.  You can drink it - but I believe that most make cheese from the milk.


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## Beekissed (Sep 21, 2011)

Sheep will flock better, which makes them more unlikely to "squeeze through or jump over fencing".  A good loose mineral for all livestock that can work for sheep as well is kelp meal and coarse salt free choice.


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## kstaven (Sep 22, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I believe that your sheep's milk question has not been answered yet.
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> You can milk sheep.  You can drink it - but I believe that most make cheese from the milk.


Most sheep breeds are very low volume milk producers so you would need to milk many to get a small round of cheese. Not worth it in most cases.



			
				secuono said:
			
		

> I want to avoid hot wire, my pony is bound to get caught and really F himself over w/it. He's a total nut when it comes to borders...lol.


If this is the case I would worry about your pony running sheep or goats to death.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 22, 2011)

kstaven brings up a good point about the pony.  Some ponies or other equines (like donkeys or even horses) will think it's great fun to chase (and/or bite) your sheep (or goats, or cattle), and it can be very dangerous.  Not only is it not fair to the sheep to be chased, they can panic and run into fences or other objects in their panic and really hurt themselves.  

The sheep will most likely stand on the fence if they're waiting for food, kind of like a "Hurry up!!" thing.  They may not hurt it, but just bend it a little. You can always see how they do and then go from there if you need to make changes.  

Feeding a whole grain (by that, I mean an actual grain and not a feed blend) would be fine for the sheep.  Babydoll southdowns and standard southdowns are pretty easy keepers, so they probably won't need much in addition to the pasture or hay unless they're raising lambs.  

And yes, you can milk sheep but it won't be worth it if you're milking the babydoll southdowns because they're going to be difficult to milk and won't produce much.  If you think you want to go with dairy animals you may want to consider a different breed or just go with goats, which are (in general) MUCH easier to milk and produce more than a sheep....unless you're specifically wanting sheep milk.

Introducing the ram wouldn't be hard.  Usually rams are MORE than willing to go meet new ewes.    You'd want to keep him in with the ewes for at least 2, preferrably 3 heat cycles (a heat cycle is 17 days) in case they don't get bred on the first try.  Catching him should be no harder than catching your ewes.  It would be good to have some sort of small pen inside the pasture (perhaps a feeding area?) so you can close them in when you need to work with them.


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## secuono (Sep 22, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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He doesn't go after other animals. If they give him space, he will just sniff them over, maybe nibble some wool and then go back to grazing.

We also don't drink milk often. Even half gal cartons never see their half full days.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 22, 2011)

I've been back and forth regarding the sheep that I want on my Livestock Adventure.  I'm now considering Baby Dolls because of the wool.  I think I can handle learning to shear the few that I will have.  And a small profit is just that.  Profit to be put back into the Livestock Adventure.  My base is self sufficient.  And I strive to be that.  Not anti-social, just self sufficient.  

Goats will be used for milk.  Sheep for meat and wool.  Chickens for eggs.   I think with a small project that we will be going into, will be able to justify the livestock costs.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 22, 2011)

One thing to remember with small animals is that they're not always easier to handle!  I have sheared a couple of babydoll southdowns and they were much harder than my standard size sheep.  The same way lambs are harder to shear....you have to bend over much farther and they don't seem to conform to my legs as well when I'm holding them.  But I shear with the sheep on their rump, and if you stand your sheep up it may not be as big of a problem to you.  Plus, one thing to remember if you're going to market the wool (especially to handspinners) is that it needs to be a nice, even, no second-cuts shear job!  Hand spinners won't buy it if it's choppy.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 22, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> One thing to remember with small animals is that they're not always easier to handle!  I have sheared a couple of babydoll southdowns and they were much harder than my standard size sheep.  The same way lambs are harder to shear....you have to bend over much farther and they don't seem to conform to my legs as well when I'm holding them.  But I shear with the sheep on their rump, and if you stand your sheep up it may not be as big of a problem to you.  Plus, one thing to remember if you're going to market the wool (especially to handspinners) is that it needs to be a nice, even, no second-cuts shear job!  Hand spinners won't buy it if it's choppy.


Thanks Aggieterpkatie for this valuable information.  I was looking at smaller because of space, but could look at the larger breeds because I don't plan to have a huge herd.  Good to know about what handspinners who are in the market for wool needs from the product.   Thanks again.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 22, 2011)

Ms. Research said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
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I'm still not at the point where I'd feel comfortable selling a fleece of mine to spinners.     I may use it myself or give it away, but it's not quite at the "sellable" point.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 22, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Ms. Research said:
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I guess it takes a lot of practice to get it to the "sellable" point.  I think your idea of giving it away or using yourself is an idea I would consider when starting.  The more you do it the more experience you get to get to the "sellable" point.   I understand that it's not as easy as just taking a shear tool and zip zip you are done and the wool is perfect.  Again, thanks for the valuable information.


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## elevan (Sep 22, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

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Which would explain why sheep's milk cheeses are sooooooo expensive.


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## kstaven (Sep 22, 2011)

Especially when you consider cheese is a good way to take 80 lbs of milk and turn it into 5 lbs of finished product.


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## secuono (Sep 24, 2011)

Are there any quirks or things I need to know about sheep? Like things I wouldn't know until I have them and they suddenly show up and I'm back here again asking you guess what's going on?

I'm going to go w/sheep. I had a breeder and 2 lambs lined up to come here, but I had to back out. If I want to breed this breed to their standards and all that, not just as pets/meat/etc, what would have to be different? Would I need to keep a ram then?


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## Beekissed (Sep 24, 2011)

You need to house/fence your ram where he cannot see, hear or smell your gals....he can and will jump about any fencing you can provide to get to the rest of the flock.  You may prevent this by keeping a wether ram in with him but I don't know.  

Sheep just don't like to be alone.


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## secuono (Sep 24, 2011)

I would build him and his buddy a shelter. How much time can he live with the ewes? If I get young lambs, 2 ewes and a ram, how long would they be able to stay together w/o breeding or would he breed as soon as he realizes he is a male? Would the ewes be too young? My thought would be to wait until the next spring for them to breed or would breeding them in the fall for spring babies be best? I'm guessing the ewes would be 6-8mo at the breeding time, no? 
Could the ram live with the ewes all the time and just be separated during lambing season? Would he have to be separated from the ewes w/lambs until they are weaned? 

I've read this website fully last winter, I guess I need to read it some more because I'm not recalling the answers to the Qs I have above. 
http://www.sheep101.info/sheepproduction.html


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 25, 2011)

Which breed are you going with?  I would not trust a ram past 3-4 mos of age.  Really you just never know, and individual rams can breed earlier than "the books" say they could.  Ram lambs are frequently used to breed ewes, so they mature pretty quickly.  Your ewes won't be ready to breed so early, since they have to have the frame and ability to carry lambs.  Some breeders breed ewe lambs, as long as they reach a certain size before breeding, but I like to wait and breed them as yearlings.  I maybe would do a very late breeding on an older ewe lamb, but so far I haven't felt that need, and I'm not a commercial sheep producer, so the "bottom line" for me isn't as much profit as successful lambing.  

A good option for you may be to go ahead and get your ewe lambs this year. Then wait until next year for your ram.  Then you won't have to house a ram for so long before he's able to breed your ewes.  You can also get a ram lamb for next year's breeding, and after he breeds you could either sell him, or put him in the freezer if you don't want to keep a ram year round.


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## secuono (Sep 25, 2011)

The mini babydolls. 
I want to get the ewes in spring when they are weaned and I can better bond with them. Getting them now they will be older and more sheep like. I can wait until the spring after this coming one to get a ram lamb and raise him up to breeding. I read sheep breed in the fall naturally, don't Babydolls also do this or are they southern made so they breed year round?


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 25, 2011)

Ms. Research
    Herd Nerd On A MissionLMAO!!! How did you get the custom label??  

Sorry to hijack....


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## boykin2010 (Sep 25, 2011)

None of my sheep have ever gotten out. They respect boundaries unlike goats. 
sheep like to graze more than goats. Goats need more weeds and brush. Wool is increasing in the USA but is better in some areas rather than others.
If you plan on raising something for meat, i would definately go with sheep. Some people like the taste of goat but some dont. Ive never met anybody that doesnt like lamb!
You dont have to keep a ram year round if you dont want to. Some people buy a ram, let him breed the ewes then when the deed is done eat the ram. That way you dont have to a separate place for him to stay almost all year.


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## melody (Sep 25, 2011)

I have 2 sheep (Kat/Dorp mix) and 2 Nigerian Dwarf goats. They are my yard maintenance crew and it seems to have worked. I have only had the lawn mower out once this year and that was late spring just after I bought the sheep.
They forage everywhere and my youngest sheep is as good a browser as the goats.  They consider my sister and I their herd leaders so the only fencing problem we seem to have is them trying to get to us. As long as your fence opening is small enough that they cannot just go through, and you have enough pasture for all to wander and eat  freely, you should be OK with either.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 25, 2011)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> Ms. Research
> Herd Nerd On A MissionLMAO!!! How did you get the custom label??
> 
> Sorry to hijack....


   Just a title.   Been called worse.   Glad it gave you a chuckle.


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## SheepGirl (Sep 25, 2011)

If you want a dual-purpose sheep, do not go with the Babydoll Southdowns. I have some crosses, but they are not that meaty. If you want a dual-purpose sheep (one to be raised for both meat and wool), get some Columbias, Corriedales, Finnsheep, Panamas, Polypays, or Targhees. These are all breeds primarily used in commercial production because they produce good carcasses and good wool. Because they are used in commercial production, you can usually find a farmer with some aged ewes (five or six years old) for sale that are still otherwise productive, but not suited for their operation anymore.

There really is nothing special about Babydoll wool. They are Southdowns, but American Southdowns are bred for their meat quality and Babydolls are primarily bred now just for novelty with no regard to carcass quality or production characteristics.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 26, 2011)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> If you want a dual-purpose sheep, do not go with the Babydoll Southdowns. I have some crosses, but they are not that meaty. If you want a dual-purpose sheep (one to be raised for both meat and wool), get some Columbias, Corriedales, Finnsheep, Panamas, Polypays, or Targhees. These are all breeds primarily used in commercial production because they produce good carcasses and good wool. Because they are used in commercial production, you can usually find a farmer with some aged ewes (five or six years old) for sale that are still otherwise productive, but not suited for their operation anymore.
> 
> There really is nothing special about Babydoll wool. They are Southdowns, but American Southdowns are bred for their meat quality and Babydolls are primarily bred now just for novelty with no regard to carcass quality or production characteristics.


Thanks so much SheepGirl for your list of dual-purpose sheep.  As much as I love Southdowns, and maybe one will find one on our Livestock Adventure as a sweet pet, I'm really looking at the Corriedales.  I think that would be the best dual-purpose sheep for our Adventure.  Do you know anyone who is successful with this breed?


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## secuono (Sep 26, 2011)

I am stuck on Babydolls and that is what I'm getting. 
I'm not selling their meat nor selling their wool for a fair price. If I do sell it, it's for cheap so it's out the door and not just sitting around taking up space. Ram lambs will be sold, if they won't sell they will be eaten. Our rabbits are for food. I went with Babydolls because of their size, I don't want a big ugly thing wandering the yard...


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