# LGD or farm dog?



## NH homesteader (Jan 4, 2017)

I'm moving this over from another thread. @Southern by choice and other dog folks... 

I'm wondering what some considerations are for determining needs for guardian dogs.  I'm not talking about breed choices,  I'm talking about looking at your farm and determining if you need a farm dog or LGD.  Also,  what are the differences in management and training/partnership between you and the dog?


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 4, 2017)

I've had LGD's on and off for a very long time.  However, there was a time about 6 or 7 years ago when I was "between" LGD's, and lost a couple of goats - one young buckling disappeared completely - one pregnant doe was found dead and eviscerated INSIDE the front barnyard, separate from the big pasture, and within 30 yards of my back door.  Another came up with her throat torn open.  Decided then that I NEEDED another LGD. Enter Maddie.

We later determined that it was a bobcat(s?)  Neighbors still report that they see one occasionally and they are right next door to us.  However - we've never had another loss.

Certainly no expert here - but here's my observation about the differences:

I have Gracie (English Shepherd).  I consider her an all around "farm dog".  She certainly will alert/bark to let us know when someone has come on to the property.  She is a bit obsessive/compulsive that the chickens stay where they are supposed to be.  If one enters her space, they are escorted back to the fence that they breeched.  She is a great vermin exterminator.  She can kill a rat in about 1.8 seconds and is extremely proud of herself for doing so! (as she should be)  And, she is an awesome "frisbee" dog - much to the delight of my grandkiddos!  In my opinion she does everything a good 'farm dog' should do.  But, her #1 focus is NOT to soothe and comfort  or protect the stock.  She gives them the "stare" that definitely makes them nervous whereas my LGD's, even though larger and more intimidating looking, can calm the stock through their body language.

I trust Gracie to go in the pasture with me and be around the goats/pigs/horses.  But, she does NOT live in the pasture.  She is a 'people' dog.  And, if left in the pasture without supervision she reverts to her instincts which are to 'herd' things.  She usually leaves the goats alone unless I ask for her help.  But, she will pester the horses - probably because the LGD's don't really want her pestering the goats.  But if she does fixate on the goats the LGD's intervene.  They don't attack her (they know I love Gracie) - but they will divert her attention away from the goats.

Maddie (Pyr Extraordinaire!)  Sweet, loving, gentle and kind with her humans and her goats.   She will come into the yard and spend time loving on her peeps - but she doesn't want to live there.  After an hour or so she is at the fence pleading to be let back with her goats.  One of the rare times I ever had a doe try to kid in the pasture (because I couldn't catch her to put her in a kidding pen) this goat had a problem.  I found them early the next morning with a kids head out, the doe exhausted and down, and Maddie curled around her sharing body heat and quite anxious about the whole situation.  She instinctively "knew" something was wrong and while she couldn't pull that baby - she stayed right with the doe until I got there. Had that been Gracie....I know the outcome wouldn't have been the same.

Cowboy (Anatolian growing into an LGD hero!)   Ya'll have heard a lot about him.  Despite a bump or two in the road - he is turning in to a wonderful LGD.  He still likes his 'yard time' with Gracie (his bestest pal) but he likes to be with his goats.  He guards a little differently than Maddie.  Maddie is more of a stand back and watch LGD - but with NO hesitation whatsoever to jump into action.  Cowboy likes to be in the middle of everything going on with his goats.  If I'm giving them wormer, he will lick their mouths.  If they're getting an injection - he's in the way - trying to comfort the goat.

With Gracie, there's always an opportunity to try and help her get better at her job.  She listens to my every word and tries her best to do what I want her to do.  Maddie and Cowboy - already know their job.  They do it without any formal training, without being asked or specifically directed and they are quite serious about it. Do I sometimes have to ask Cowboy to calm down, do I have to redirect him at times - yep - but he's still a teenager.  Has he ever chased a goat or a chicken?  On a rare occasion - yes.  But what did he do with it when he caught up to it - absolutely nothing, lol.  Sometimes I think he just wants them back in the barn...

In a lot of ways (in my opinion) some 'farm dogs' and LGD's can have overlapping characteristics.  But as in a lot of areas - a specialist in their field does a better job!


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## TAH (Jan 4, 2017)

I have no experience with LGD but I do have experience with farm dogs.


Our farm dog is a PT/BH/BL-mix and is still a puppy in some ways (3 years old) but very well behaved.


As some of you know, he had a hard start and didn't trust humans for a bit of time so he would seek out comfort from the other animals. The goats knew he was hurt and needed love, they would let him run with them, play with them and just letting him be with them. It helped him a lot. Naomi would butt Boaz and Boaz would nip at her heels but they loved the game they would play it for a good 20-30-mins, LOL. After about 9 months of having him, he really started to come around. He started playing with us, hiking, running around and being a nut-head. I noticed he needed more training to help him thru his traumatization, I started with 15-min training and slowly worked up to where we were doing 2-3-hours of training a day. After 3 months of this, he was a totally different dog. I knew I could trust him in ANY situation to help me. I loved him to pieces. Around this time we were having issues with foxes, coyotes, and hawks trying to get our animals. We had almost gotten a GP around this time but decided it wasn't the right time so it was on to Boaz.

He proved himself just after he turned 2 (Oct-16). My dad was gone, it was 3:15 when Boaz was barking like crazy at the front door, I woke up to and let him out. He darted towards the corner of the property where a coyote was getting ready to jump a fence, I waited to see what was going to happen, next thing I know is he has the coyote by the leg and is dragging it/fighting it towards the road. When he got it to the road he let it go and came back inside. After that, I knew he was a farm dog!! He is bonded with his goats and will do most anything to protect them. On nights I would take him with me to feed the animals he could calm them down even when there was a cougar on the prop.

I know he will never be able to do what an LGD does, he is a good guardian/farm dog.

On guard, while I and Zimmy were out playing in the water




Waiting for that stick to fly



Tuggle war


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## babsbag (Jan 4, 2017)

Do I really need an LGD...I say yes, DH says no. But now I have 4 of them.   I also have two border collies that are strictly house and fenced backyard dogs. I have no doubt that they would chase a goat to its death and I have seen what they do with errant chickens and it isn't pretty. They are my house guards and do a fine job but they never go to the barn with me. If they are outside at night and hear a coyote they bark a lot and then head for the door.  

My LGDs give me the security that I need to be able to do farm chores at night. I am a big chicken and the dogs let me know that my world is safe; if they aren't barking I am confidant that I am ok. They have also cleaned kids and protected them from other goats and Francis alerted me and kept one from drowning when it was born in a water trough. 

When I used to have chickens and goats together I never lost chickens to hawks or critters and I am sure that if my LGDs had had access to the chicken yard I would not have lost the chickens this last year to the coyote. 

I have good fences, 2x4 no climb everywhere and hot wire top and bottom. DH thinks that that is enough and I am not convinced. Not to mention that if the fence is down when I go to do evening chores I don't have to worry about troubleshooting it in the dark or in the rain, I know it can wait until morning. 

I love me dogs, they just give me a wonderful sense of security, day and night. I also worry about 2 -legged predators, and they take care of that too. I will never be without them.


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## NH homesteader (Jan 4, 2017)

So what do you consider the job of a "farm dog"  to be? 

That's helpful to look at.  We have bears,  coyotes and the occasional stray dog. Of course always could be a human  issue but doubtful.  We are set back from the road and you can't get to the animals without being in our driveway. 

I have house dogs but I've never considered them "farm dogs".  Maybe I should.  One of them is very protective of me and our property.  Not so bonded with  the animals,  but protects them because they're mine.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 4, 2017)

I was trying to upload a PDF with a chart I have but I can't get it to come up on BYH.


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## babsbag (Jan 4, 2017)

I have never owned a farm dog so not much help with that one.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 4, 2017)

I use a chart while I do phone consults.
I don't like "applications".
I think applications can be very intimidating and more often then not phone inquiries help both parties.

As far as farmdogs... there is a range of what farmdogs are used for. Some do live outside but cannot do what LGD's do and are not necessarily livestock oriented.
Our farmdog ferrets out chickens when we need her to. Drives off aggressive turkeys. Kills small "rodents" like possums, moles, and field mice. She alerts to any thing on the farm that should not be there... human or animal.
She however does NOT live outside. She is out when we are and usually in when we are. She has no undercoat and therefore does not do well in cold weather. She goes everywhere on the farm but NOT in with the LGD's their fields are their fields however ALL dogs respect her and protect her.

She could not take on a coyote nor will she clean or bond with any farm animal. She is loyal to her people and does what she does out of that loyalty.

Rita, as you know is being raised as a farmdog. She goes everywhere with us. In her case however, given her cross, she is being introduced to livestock and the LGDs.
She will not live in the fields but do general property farm patrol much in the way our current farmdog does. Rita lives inside.

Some farmdogs are great outdoors but cannot cut it as far as engaging predators. They more alert or bark. Their bond is still primarily to their humans.

I was trying to put up the chart and it wouldn't transfer (not computer savvy) so I put this together- It is GENERAL not expansive.
When you look at it and see the chart if there are animals being killed by predators I will ask for more detail. 
If livestock is being taken in the day? At night? How many? How often? By what? If coyotes are they in packs? How many? 

This info helps with giving an idea of how many dogs may be necessary. Lots' of issues with underdogging.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 5, 2017)

I insist on applications.  And puppy agreement which is and can be legally enforced (courtesy of another breeder friend who had attorney draw it up), and includes mandatory spay/neuter agreement now, something I wish I'd done sooner.  You live you learn.
If someone is 'intimidated' by this process, I most likely would never sell them a dog to begin with. But then I am uber-choosy.
People will hide things.  I've been doing this too long, not to have found that out the hard way.  OUCH.
By vetting out references on an application I was able to stop a sale of two Spanish Mastiff pups to a couple involved in dog fighting.
A mere phone talk would have never found that out.
Sadly, people lie.  Integrity is not the norm anymore.  It's a whole new world out there, and a lot of it is not pretty.
As for under-dogging - a mantra of too many farms and ranches….I wrote years ago an article for sheep! Magazine about numbers.
I'll have to find it and post under separate thread as to not hijack this one.
Oh and happy new year all.


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## Alexz7272 (Jan 5, 2017)

No expert on LGD but have considered them heavily. My lab is a cuddle bug with the baby sheep/goats, my two catahoula's alert me of anything around them day or night and well, Vlad (my husky) just follows the pack. So with a pack of four farm dogs, they've kept coyotes away multiple times. But that is also the largest threat we have here, nothing like bobcats or mountain lions, a bear once but it was young and very frightened. We also sit on only 5 acres, so not 'much' area to protect. Due to the smaller acreage, the livestock is also closer to the house, if we were to move them further away I would consider an LGD but in my situation, I do not know if an LGD would be happy on the smaller acreage. Just my experience!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 5, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> I insist on applications.  And puppy agreement which is and can be legally enforced (courtesy of another breeder friend who had attorney draw it up), and includes mandatory spay/neuter agreement now, something I wish I'd done sooner.  You live you learn.
> If someone is 'intimidated' by this process, I most likely would never sell them a dog to begin with. But then I am uber-choosy.
> People will hide things.  I've been doing this too long, not to have found that out the hard way.  OUCH.
> By vetting out references on an application I was able to stop a sale of two Spanish Mastiff pups to a couple involved in dog fighting.
> ...



It is a start. I do far more than that. Phone weeds them out better than applications IMO. 
What is on paper is one thing. Certain dogs have restricted breeding rights however I am not a spay neuter fan. 


I do on site visit, evaluations, have a throrough contract as well.
Out of state clients I have photos of property, fencing, satellite, and general references.
I will travel up to 4hrs for a site visit. Vetting is extensive.

In 35 years I have seen alot... with many breeds. 
I have had ONE that ended up as a regret situation.  I also do not breed and breed and breed. 
Far too many dogs out there that need retraining and are rehomed so I focus there.


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 5, 2017)

very interesting, looking forward to learning more!


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## CntryBoy777 (Jan 5, 2017)

This is very timely for me right now and anxious to Learn.


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## babsbag (Jan 5, 2017)

I may not have much land but it is very hilly and you can't see from one side to the other at all. There is no way even two dogs could persuade a determined pack of coyotes to go elsewhere if they really wanted to challenge my fences.  Because of this I bring my dogs and goats into a smaller area at night so that there is one more fence to cross before reaching my herd. The threat is mainly coyotes but bobcat, bears, and mountain lions have all been spotted within  1000' of my land. When I get the 8 acres next to me 3 of it will be open at night, at least to the dogs, so there will be even more guarding to do. I have 3.25 dogs right now.


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## Alexz7272 (Jan 5, 2017)

@babsbag 3.25 dogs?


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## Bruce (Jan 5, 2017)

Counting your pup before Rita is even old enough to breed @babsbag ??


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## NH homesteader (Jan 5, 2017)

The breeder we got our alano from has like a 7 page application to start.  We got to skip it because we knew him personally. Dog fighters would love to get their hands on this breed.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 5, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> The breeder we got our alano from has like a 7 page application to start.  We got to skip it because we knew him personally. Dog fighters would love to get their hands on this breed.



We have people that stop by sometimes that ask questions about the dogs... I am pretty blunt. NC has a lot of fighting dogs. It is disgusting to say the least. I swear it is PB capital of the Country.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 5, 2017)

Alexz7272 said:


> @babsbag 3.25 dogs?


Yes Babs has 3.25 dogs 
She has Sig, Francis, Mia, and now her new pup! The new pup counts as the .25


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## NH homesteader (Jan 5, 2017)

Wow I didn't realize that.  I kinda (not being judgemental here) thought it was like a Chicago/Detroit...  Big city thing.  I didn't realize NC was a big dog fighting area. Alanos don't really react to pain.  Often they're very seriously ill before you know anything is wrong.  I shudder to think what would happen if fighters got them.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 5, 2017)

Cock fighting here too


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## NH homesteader (Jan 5, 2017)

Awful


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 5, 2017)

We had a guy that wanted a bunch of chickens. Didn't care what breed. Or gender. 

Asked several times why he wanted the birds. We don't care if he wanted them for meat but he never gave a clear answer. 
First it was his son or grandson wanted chickens. Then he just said he just wants chickens… was really insistent on getting them. Just seemed shady. Called constantly and wanted our address. (Never gave it to him)

He wanted them as bait birds.  

Big $ in cock fighting apparently. Our NPIP lady was involved (or folks she knew through her job) in busting a big fighting area. The stuff people put on their birds is awful and people apparently bet $1000's on some of these fights


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## NH homesteader (Jan 5, 2017)

Wow! I am so glad I live where I don't have to think of that when and if I sell birds.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 5, 2017)

Mexico has cockfighting events- it is normal.... we have a very heavy Mexican population here. 
There has always been this going on in the South but it is very different now.
Cockfighting is huge. Further South it is worse.
They tie razor blades to their feet. SICK!


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## NH homesteader (Jan 5, 2017)

I also didn't know you had a large Mexican population in NC.  I'm feeling like a sheltered country bumpkin northerner. 

I had heard that about the razor blades. Unfortunately. Infuriating!


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 5, 2017)

On the topic of cockfighting I'm sure many of you know about dog fighters using large white dogs like Akbash, Pyrs, Maremmas, etc. to use as bait dogs / training bait for fighting dogs.  I have heard about this from Pyr rescue groups and Pyr breeders, for years.   My paranoia runs deep…….there was a cockfighting ring busted in Winnemucca Nevada where I live, not long ago.  Large Mexican population here and we now have dog fighting problems here too.  Its pandemic and all over, and sad and just makes me…more paranoid.  Good strong fences, a loaded 1911 .45 by my bed locked cocked and ready to rock…and locked gates folks….my mantra.  And big dogs who trust no one outside the gate past sunset or after dark……


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 5, 2017)

Yep- folks have had lots of dogs stolen here in NC. For fighting and bait dogs. 


Just realized what thread this is on. Sorry for the hijack


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## NH homesteader (Jan 5, 2017)

Hey I just realized I was the OP and I don't like staying on topic so it's cool! Lol

If we bring the dogs anywhere in the car with us,  I worry that someone will want to steal my alano.  They'd never steal my mutt, but my alano is dumb and loves everyone. 

Do people steal dogs from fields?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 5, 2017)

I have heard of dogs being taken. I have also heard of trailers backing up stealing whole herds and the dogs jumped right into the trailer!
No one can enter a field without us and some fields I simply cannot take someone in at all.
Our dogs stopped an attempted livestock theft here. 
Outside their field if we are with them most are social but not all. I personally don't see this as a negative trait however.
I don't care for overly aggressive dogs, won't tolerate a fear biter, but a dog with discernment is a gem!

Of course there are down sides. We can never have a farm sitter. It has to be a family member.


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## Beekissed (Jan 26, 2017)

I've had farm dogs and I've had LGDs, my sister used to breed GPs on her farm as well, so over my life I've gotten to see a distinct difference in their individual abilities and traits, but have also seen where the LGDs could be used for small acreage and smaller livestock, like chickens, effectively, as I've used them that way for my own purposes.  

I think anyone who has herd animals that have any pasture situations that let them range/graze more than 2-3 acres will need a LGD to guard them effectively, particularly if you have heavy predator numbers.   You'd need a very special farm dog indeed to have one that will range out from the home place that far but still not leave the property entirely when chasing a predator and that would stay with the flock at all times.  Farm dogs guard territory more than they guard the animals in the territory...that doesn't mean they don't bond with some of their animals and nurture them, as they can and will do that, but they don't have that instinct to the nth degree like a LGD breed does. 

I think if you have small livestock on just an acre or two that are penned close to the house and they stay in smaller pens/fenced areas, you could get by with just farm dogs out there all the time.  They do an excellent job at keeping all predators away from their homestead but I'd advise they be confined to the area you want them to guard...they can't guard if they are wandering the countryside all night long.  I use wireless containment for all my dogs and that keeps them in the area I want guarded.  

Can a farm dog keep your livestock safe from black bear, bobcat, coyote, etc. on a small place like that?  Yep, the right one can, even working as a single dog.  I've seen it time and again and they are quite successful if they are not house dogs and only out there in the daytime.  My old Jake(farm mutt extraordinair, Lab/BC mix, has done that very thing for 4-5 yrs on his own, but has worked great with a LGD partner before and is working with one now.  I've had Labs that are excellent farm dogs, working alone and doing it right, keeping all those predators away from chicken flocks.  

Most people are reluctant to leave their farm dogs out there all night, which cuts their effectiveness down to nil but that was not always the way...back in the day dogs were not kept in the house much and especially not at night.  

I think it comes down to where a farm dog can be used to guard small livestock that is kept up close and on small acreage as a natural side effect of their guarding their territory.  A LGD will be needed for larger areas and flocks/herds that range out and will guard the actual animal more than they guard the area, which is great for large acreage and where herds are out all night and away from the house/barn areas.  

I once knew of a single female GP that worked out on sheep all by herself, rarely seeing the human much but the farmer would find a dead coyote left by the gate nearest the house about once a month.  You could see her out in the pasture with the sheep but you could not call her away from them at all...that was her herd, she would kill for it and did so regularly.  I don't think there are many farm dogs, if any, that are designed or inclined to live out there like that and do such things without needing any approval from their human pack.  

I think people who get LGD breeds for a suburban backyard where they keep a handful of chickens in a coop and run situation are bringing an Uzi to paintball game.  It's just the opposite story if a person has farm dogs trying to guard sheep or goats out on large pastures.  

Here I have 20 acres of mixed meadow and woods, mostly woods.  I'm surrounded by thousands of acres of woodland and I have the only chickens for miles.  My flock free ranges. I've used a farm dogs primarily and have used them very effectively for that situation for a long time, but the addition of a LGD or LGD mix breed brings an added solution to some of my biggest problems~stray dogs and aerial predators.   The LGD is more serious about guarding the chickens rather than guarding the territory, so they react more aggressively to these two most frequent threats.


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## Simpleterrier (Jan 27, 2017)

Thanks @Beekissed  that was well put. Let's go one step further as in lgd farm dog house or yrd dog. To me it's three different dogs. Lgd large scale protects livestock no matter where it is in fence out of fence any where. Farm dog to protect the farm. From people and animals. Or protect people from animals. Or your animals from wild or ferrel animals. They can handle lots of acres or a few. House or yrd dog goes in the house it is your companion. And in that case can be whatever u want or are willing to train. But alot can become pains from being spoiled. Just a few thoughts


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