# Nigerian Dwarf/ Pygmy cross -  conformation..? Help please!



## Livinwright Farm

Is there a breed conformation check list that I can run through for checking over my 2 bucklings and 1 doeling?
I have gone through the check list with Momma & Maude who are supposedly pure bred Nigerians, and after running through the list, they appear to be just that. But don't know what to look for when it comes to my 50/50 kids.  Please advise!


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## Livinwright Farm

Also, please evaluate Maude for me.  She is 3 yrs old, and due the end of this month/beginning of next month. I promise to be quiet and thank you ahead of time for your experienced critiques


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## Roll farms

You're never going to get a cross bred animal to 'conform' to a standard of one or the other breed, if they're a mix of both 'types'.

Consider this.....Cross a poodle to a labrador, and the pups would pass neither breed's AKC Standard of Perfection (or whatever the doggie equivalent is).


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## Livinwright Farm

Roll farms said:
			
		

> You're never going to get a cross bred animal to 'conform' to a standard of one or the other breed, if they're a mix of both 'types'.
> 
> Consider this.....Cross a poodle to a labrador, and the pups would pass neither breed's AKC Standard of Perfection (or whatever the doggie equivalent is).


I thought there were distinct accepted cross breeds. Like Mini Toggs, Mini LaManchas, etc. ..? Did I get something wrong somewhere?


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're never going to get a cross bred animal to 'conform' to a standard of one or the other breed, if they're a mix of both 'types'.
> 
> Consider this.....Cross a poodle to a labrador, and the pups would pass neither breed's AKC Standard of Perfection (or whatever the doggie equivalent is).
> 
> 
> 
> I thought there were distinct accepted cross breeds. Like Mini Toggs, Mini LaManchas, etc. ..? Did I get something wrong somewhere?
Click to expand...

Those are both DAIRY breeds.  That means they can be judged by the dairy goat registry score card the same as every other dairy breed.  The only exception would be breed character which is distinctive between breeds.  The udder on a Saanan, Alpine, Nigerian, experimental, etc are all judged by the exact same linear traits.  You can't really expect a pygmy cross to conform to the standard of dairy breeds.


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're never going to get a cross bred animal to 'conform' to a standard of one or the other breed, if they're a mix of both 'types'.
> 
> Consider this.....Cross a poodle to a labrador, and the pups would pass neither breed's AKC Standard of Perfection (or whatever the doggie equivalent is).
> 
> 
> 
> I thought there were distinct accepted cross breeds. Like Mini Toggs, Mini LaManchas, etc. ..? Did I get something wrong somewhere?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those are both DAIRY breeds.  That means they can be judged by the dairy goat registry score card the same as every other dairy breed.  The only exception would be breed character which is distinctive between breeds.  The udder on a Saanan, Alpine, Nigerian, experimental, etc are all judged by the exact same linear traits.  You can't really expect a pygmy cross to conform to the standard of dairy breeds.
Click to expand...

:/  Well, crud! I was hoping, because of 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation lines of mini breeds, that there would be some form of checklist that I could go off of. :/

Well, scratch the first part of this thread.... how about critiquing Maude?


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## SDGsoap&dairy

What do you mean by a checklist?


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## Goatmasta

That is not a purebred nigerian.  Boer cross.


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> What do you mean by a checklist?


Like a middle ground conformation list for the Nigi-Pygs that I go go over piece by piece with the almost yearling kids.


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## Livinwright Farm

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> That is not a purebred nigerian.  Boer cross.




  Can you explain what makes you say this?
PS: If you are only going off the thumb size image, click it to see it full size.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

If you were evaluating a purebred dairy goat you could use the ADGA scorecard.  I'm sure it's somewhere on the website.  But it's not a checklist, per se... There are a couple things you might "check off" like making sure they have the correct number of teats and orifices, no horns, no obvious disqualifying faults, etc.  But the scorecard isn't something you check off, it's a standard for evaluating the animal's structure that takes a trained eye to see.

If you have a grade goat that looks like a dairy goat in type, why don't you post stacked pictures both in profile and from the rear?


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## helmstead

I think she's % Boer also...the neck, brisket/chest and overall thickness lend more to a meat type cross.

I have personal experience with 3/4 Nigerian 1/4 Boer kids and they looked just like that doe.

I don't understand what you're saying you did in reference to a 'checklist' either???  There's a scorecard, but you'd have to have a pretty thorough understanding of the conformation you were scoring to go through the scorecard.


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## Goatmasta

If you cover her head and look at the body only, she looks just like a boer.  She is too thick and meaty to be a nigerian.    google boer goat and look at a few and compare.


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> If you were evaluating a purebred dairy goat you could use the ADGA scorecard.  I'm sure it's somewhere on the website.  But it's not a checklist, per se... There are a couple things you might "check off" like making sure they have the correct number of teats and orifices, no horns, no obvious disqualifying faults, etc.  But the scorecard isn't something you check off, it's a standard for evaluating the animal's structure that takes a trained eye to see.
> 
> If you have a grade goat that looks like a dairy goat in type, why don't you post stacked pictures both in profile and from the rear?


Okay, you have me on a technicality.  When I say checklist, I mean a list of things to look for, make sure are within acceptable parameters, etc. So, not literally a list to check off. 

What do you mean by stacked pictures?


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## Roll farms

FWIW, every pic you've posted of her, I've just assumed she's a boer X.  How tall is she at the shoulder?


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## Livinwright Farm

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> If you cover her head and look at the body only, she looks just like a boer.  She is too thick and meaty to be a nigerian.    google boer goat and look at a few and compare.


Okay, I tried explaining her thickness with the post that has her picture. She is a little over conditioned(we tell her that she is in overly good condition  ) and she is pregnant due at the end of this month/beginning of May. 
Here is another picture of her(She is the one at 11 o' clock) from when she was 4 weeks post kidding.





Momma is the one in the center of the pic.


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## helmstead

They both look Boer cross.  I have overconditioned Nigerians (the judges tell me all the time  ) and they're not nearly that thick.


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## helmstead

Even look at their leg bones...VERY thick and round - more of a meat goat quality.


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## Livinwright Farm

what does FWIW stand for? I see it all the time on here, but haven't the foggiest idea!


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## Goatmasta

I concur with helmstead


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## Roll farms

For what it's worth....
In my case, I mean that as someone who raises boers for a living.

She, her mama, and the kid in the background all look like % boer.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> When I say checklist, I mean a list of things to look for, make sure are within acceptable parameters, etc. So, not literally a list to check off.
> 
> What do you mean by stacked pictures?


Determining what acceptable parameters are exactly takes a whole lotta experience.  That's why we've started showing, to better understand the breed standard.


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## Livinwright Farm

I am utterly confused right now... I was expecting responses that she didn't completely conform to the Nigerian standards, but not that she might be a boer cross.... man.  What to do with this input..? Is there some kind of goat breed dna test that can be done(like what they have for dogs)?


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## Livinwright Farm

Roll farms said:
			
		

> For what it's worth....
> In my case, I mean that as someone who raises boers for a living.
> 
> She, her mama, and the kid in the background all look like % boer.


This is what Marly aka "the kid in the background" looks like now(he has a very thick medium length coat that he inherited from his Pygmy dad).






I'm thinking that I will shave the lot of them down(once it is safely warm enough to do so) and take new pics of all of them once that is done. To make sure that what is being viewed as thick legged, isn't the thick or longer hair.
I will also take new measurements(height at withers, thickness of legs, body length,... anything else?) tonight or tomorrow, and post them up in the morning. 
_*Edited to add: * the pic of Marly!  ... kind of helps if I actually do that, eh? _


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## Goatmasta

No DNA test....  What does it matter if your just looking for "a family milker"???   If your looking for something in particular you should consider buying  registered animals that have proven genetics to back up the traits you are looking for...   For example show results and/or milk test....    

   I think you secretly want show animals...  Admitting is the first step.


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## Livinwright Farm

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> No DNA test....  What does it matter if your just looking for "a family milker"???   If your looking for something in particular you should consider buying  registered animals that have proven genetics to back up the traits you are looking for...   For example show results and/or milk test....
> 
> I think you secretly want show animals...  Admitting is the first step.


:/ My family can't afford show quality animals. 
I would love it if we could, but it just isn't gonna happen, unless someone wants to give one away. And how likely is that?


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## helmstead

You don't need to shave them to prove anything.  I look at hairy Nigerians all day long ...I can just tell you that the bone on your goaties is heavier than the bone on a full Nigerian, as is the 'meat'.  

You had posted on another thread that you were really only interested in breeding for home milkers, am I right?  Well, if that's the case...and you LIKE these does - then what does it matter if they're % Boer?

I had a grade Nigerian doe that was accidentally bred to a Boer buck before I bought her.  Her doe kid, while OBVIOUSLY half Boer, milked like a cow (the dam also milks like a cow).  Then that half Boer was bred back to a full Nigi buck and made buck and doe twins JUST like your goats here.

There are things you should aim to improve if you're breeding for milk production with these does....which will require a milky-bred buck whos mammary genetics are top notch.


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## Goatmasta

I was there once.  After a few years of raising grades I realized that show quality goats take the exact same amount of money to keep per year but have 3-4 times the reward $$$


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## Roll farms

All I'm saying is it seems your fretting over things you needn't fret over.  As long as you're happy w/ them / the milk....what difference does it make whether they fit a standard you're never going to have to compete with, anyway....?

I don't know the measurements of my goats from stem to stern, and don't intend to go measuring them...Feel free to measure all you want to, but it's not going to prove / disprove anything.

I just wondered if they're taller than the avg. Nigerian or not....around 20".  Each generation you breed back mini (if there IS any boer in there) will / should revert back to a smaller size.

Traditional boer coloring is very strong, genetic-wise...white body, colored head.  You can cross them to nearly any breed and still get...white body, red head.  
Boers are generally the only breed (w/ a few rare exceptions) colored that way, so it's not *just* her build throwing 'us' off...her coloring fits, too.

There's just no way to "know" for sure what they are, and you can stare at conformation descriptions until you're blue in the face, it won't change what you've got or lessen their value to you.


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## Livinwright Farm

helmstead said:
			
		

> You don't need to shave them to prove anything.  I look at hairy Nigerians all day long ...I can just tell you that the bone on your goaties is heavier than the bone on a full Nigerian, as is the 'meat'.
> 
> You had posted on another thread that you were really only interested in breeding for home milkers, am I right?  Well, if that's the case...and you LIKE these does - then *what does it matter if they're % Boer*?
> 
> I had a grade Nigerian doe that was accidentally bred to a Boer buck before I bought her.  Her doe kid, while OBVIOUSLY half Boer, milked like a cow (the dam also milks like a cow).  Then that half Boer was bred back to a full Nigi buck and made buck and *doe twins JUST like your goats here*.
> 
> There are things you should aim to improve if you're breeding for milk production with these does....which will require a milky-bred buck whos mammary genetics are top notch.


It matters because I was told that they were pure bred Nigerians, and that all 3 kids were Nigerian/Pygmy crosses. If they are indeed Boer crosses, then that woman flat out lied to us, which makes me   

How JUST like my goats are we talkin'?  Like, could they be the same ones?  I know Maude at least had had a tag in her ear. See pic below(that dark spot/line on her ear is the circular hole & tear out line.





I get what y'all are saying about their frame work, honest, I do... I just don't get how they can have the typical Nigerian ears and be Boer crosses.  I mean, their ears are never down. How can that be?


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## Goatmasta

F1 crosses have 2/3 drop or airplane ears.  F2 will have erect ears.  As long as they are bred back to nigerian or pygmy.   
   By the way your not the first person who has been lied to.


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## helmstead

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> How JUST like my goats are we talkin'?  Like, could they be the same ones?  I know Maude at least had had a tag in her ear.


No way possible, they were born in GA and I believe sold to pet homes.  I'll have to email her owner and see if she can post pics of them...


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## Livinwright Farm

Roll farms said:
			
		

> All I'm saying is it seems your fretting over things you needn't fret over.  As long as you're happy w/ them / the milk....what difference does it make whether they fit a standard you're never going to have to compete with, anyway....?
> 
> I don't know the measurements of my goats from stem to stern, and don't intend to go measuring them...Feel free to measure all you want to, but it's not going to prove / disprove anything.
> 
> I just wondered if they're taller than the avg. Nigerian or not....around 20".  Each generation you breed back mini (if there IS any boer in there) will / should revert back to a smaller size.
> 
> Traditional boer coloring is very strong, genetic-wise...white body, colored head.  You can cross them to nearly any breed and still get...white body, red head.
> Boers are generally the only breed (w/ a few rare exceptions) colored that way, so it's not *just* her build throwing 'us' off...her coloring fits, too.
> 
> There's just no way to "know" for sure what they are, and you can stare at conformation descriptions until you're blue in the face, it won't change what you've got or lessen their value to you.


Not really fretting or worrying, just confuzzled/perplexed.  I mean, if you showed one of your Boers to someone and asked them what they thought of your Boer and they told you that it didn't look like a Boer, but rather an Alpine X, wouldn't you be a bit, "What the heck?!" ?
And I am happy with them, for the most part... Maude still has attitude problems and overly flighty instincts, but we are slowly working on those issues with her. I wouldn't know how they are to milk yet, just got them last September when the kids were already 4 weeks old... and we were all new to each other.  I wouldn't want some stranger just up and groping me either! 

I think if I go through and find the breed standards for height, length, etc. for the different breeds, I might have a chance of figuring how much of what is in the two 3 yr old does(Momma & Maude).  And want to post my findings, because you asked about the height, and others might be interested too(maybe not, but oh well). 

Question on Boer coloring: Can Boers have dalmation spots on their bodies too? or just solid white?

I know that I can breed in for better milkiing lines, but knowing that I am now starting further off than I thought I was, does lessen their value a little for me. It means that no matter how much Calf Manna & Alfalfa I give them, they won't produce anything near what I had been counting on in my planning.  I guess that is where the whole, "don't count your chickens before they are hatched" thing comes in, eh?


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## elevan

You have to suspect that when you buy an unregistered goat that you may have the full truth withheld from you.

I have to say that I do slightly agree that your goat looks to have % boer in her...although I also feel the need to say that the pygmy blood can lend a thicker legbone as well...they do not always translate to short and cobby when mixed.

I am purposely setting up a cross breeding program for the pygmy and nigerian dwarf crosses.  You are not going to find a standard for a cross breed unless it has been developed into a recognized breed.  Also ND are dairy and Pygmies are meat so you really cannot go by either one of those standards to judge your goats.

I would encourage you to love your goats for what they give you and not get caught up in an "I was lied to" tornado.  You want home milkers and these goats can provide you with a reasonable amount.  They will also provide you with meat potential...for which you should welcome the % boer possibility.

Best of luck to you!


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> You have to suspect that when you buy an unregistered goat that you may have the full truth withheld from you.
> 
> I have to say that I do slightly agree that your goat looks to have % boer in her...although I also feel the need to say that the pygmy blood can lend a thicker legbone as well...they do not always translate to short and cobby when mixed. * (Okay, and good to know) *
> 
> I am purposely setting up a cross breeding program for the pygmy and nigerian dwarf crosses.  You are not going to find a standard for a cross breed unless it has been developed into a recognized breed.  Also ND are dairy and Pygmies are meat so you really cannot go by either one of those standards to judge your goats.
> 
> I would encourage you to love your goats for what they give you and not get caught up in an "I was lied to" tornado.  You want home milkers and these goats can provide you with a reasonable amount.  They will also provide you with meat potential...for which you should welcome the % boer possibility.  *I DO love them, even when they are bull headed. And no tornado, I just hate it when people feel they need to lie about anything(not to mention something so rediculously small, like what breed the goats are). When we first got them we thought we were going to go more for brush eaters, so if she had told us that they were boer cross, it really wouldn't have mattered.*
> 
> Best of luck to you!


I messaged the woman I got them from and asked her a few key questions that have been in my mind for a while. 

1) Do all 3 kids have the same dad? - Need to know for breeding purposes.

2) Are Maude & Momma sisters?

And 3) I was wondering where you got them from(farm's name or name of auction house)?


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## Roll farms

Boers can have other colors...the boy in my avi is a % Boer...but I was speaking of traditional, which was the only accepted boer color for a while.  
Now they'll allow spots / paints / solid red / black, etc.  Anything but all white.
I bred a solid black buck to a paint doe and got 4 traditional kids...white body / red head.  It's just  a strong genetic trait.

As far as if I showed a boer to someone who said it looked alpine, I'd probably think they've been hitting the crack pipe, b/c I know boers / boer conformation / etc.

Since you're still learning about your breed(s), and don't 'know' boers, it's easy to see why you're befuddled.

I've had people over the years say, "that's a funny looking Nubian" when looking at my boers, because all they're seeing are floppy ears.  It takes a while to get an eye for different breeds, and when they're crossed it's nearly impossible to be sure what's what.


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## elevan

Roll farms said:
			
		

> and when they're crossed it's nearly impossible to be sure what's what.


  x2


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## AlaskanShepherdess

Just to throw another possibility in there. I have two purebred, dual registered Nigerians who are very meaty. They do not look very dairy, yet they are purebred Nigerians.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I think if I go through and find the breed standards for height, length, etc. for the different breeds, I might have a chance of figuring how much of what is in the two 3 yr old does(Momma & Maude).  And want to post my findings, because you asked about the height, and others might be interested too(maybe not, but oh well).
> 
> 
> I know that I can breed in for better milkiing lines, but knowing that I am now starting further off than I thought I was, does lessen their value a little for me. It means that no matter how much Calf Manna & Alfalfa I give them, they won't produce anything near what I had been counting on in my planning.  I guess that is where the whole, "don't count your chickens before they are hatched" thing comes in, eh?


Nah, it doesn't really work that way on either count.  Measurements aren't going to tell you anything about their parentage.  And good nutrition can help your animals produce at their full potential but it doesn't alter their potential.

Roll and Kate are right, if you're breeding pets then it doesn't much matter.  What's important is that you set out your breeding goals and be informed and honest with yourself whether or not your breeding stock further your goals.


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## FlightsofFancy

Here is a picture of Ivy, who is half Nigerian/Boer cross. 








Then her kids that are 3/4 Nigi, 1/4 Boer cross


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## Livinwright Farm

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> Just to throw another possibility in there. I have two purebred, dual registered Nigerians who are very meaty. They do not look very dairy, yet they are purebred Nigerians.


Would you mind posting a body pic of them, or PMing it to me? (Which ever you feel most comfortable doing)


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think if I go through and find the breed standards for height, length, etc. for the different breeds, I might have a chance of figuring how much of what is in the two 3 yr old does(Momma & Maude).  And want to post my findings, because you asked about the height, and others might be interested too(maybe not, but oh well).
> 
> 
> I know that I can breed in for better milkiing lines, but knowing that I am now starting further off than I thought I was, does lessen their value a little for me. It means that no matter how much Calf Manna & Alfalfa I give them, they won't produce anything near what I had been counting on in my planning.  I guess that is where the whole, "don't count your chickens before they are hatched" thing comes in, eh?
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, it doesn't really work that way on either count.  Measurements aren't going to tell you anything about their parentage.  And good nutrition can help your animals produce at their full potential but it doesn't alter their potential.
> 
> Roll and Kate are right, if you're breeding pets then it doesn't much matter.  What's important is that you set out your breeding goals and be informed and honest with yourself whether or not your breeding stock further your goals.
Click to expand...

Gotchya!


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## helmstead

FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> Here is a picture of Ivy, who is half Nigerian/Boer cross.
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/537_img_1594.jpg
> 
> 
> Then her kids that are 3/4 Nigi, 1/4 Boer cross
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/537_image1229.jpg
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/537_image1233.jpg


Thanks for posting, Kel...these are the goaties I was mentioning earlier.  I know it breaks Kelly's heart to think about Miss Ivy - she was one of those goats that says in your heart.


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## AlaskanShepherdess

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to throw another possibility in there. I have two purebred, dual registered Nigerians who are very meaty. They do not look very dairy, yet they are purebred Nigerians.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you mind posting a body pic of them, or PMing it to me? (Which ever you feel most comfortable doing)
Click to expand...

Sure I can post them here. I'm planning on hopefully trimming hooves tonight so if that happens I'll take pic's tonight and post them.


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## Livinwright Farm

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just to throw another possibility in there. I have two purebred, dual registered Nigerians who are very meaty. They do not look very dairy, yet they are purebred Nigerians.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you mind posting a body pic of them, or PMing it to me? (Which ever you feel most comfortable doing)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure I can post them here. I'm planning on hopefully trimming hooves tonight so if that happens I'll take pic's tonight and post them.
Click to expand...

 YAY!!


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## AlaskanShepherdess

Sorry I didn't get them up last night. Here they are.

Here is Cinnamon. She is the great granddaughter of Millie. But she has poor conformation. I hope to at least get a decent amount of milk out of her. She is 4 months preggo here. She is still overconditioned.







This is Winterdust who just gave birth Saturday. She is a perfect weight/condition.


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## Livinwright Farm

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> Sorry I didn't get them up last night. Here they are.
> 
> Here is Cinnamon. She is the great granddaughter of Millie. But she has poor conformation. I hope to at least get a decent amount of milk out of her. She is 4 months preggo here. She is still overconditioned.
> 
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...810135747628_1667030501_1677947_6113730_n.jpg
> 
> This is Winterdust who just gave birth Saturday. She is a perfect weight/condition.
> 
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...810140067736_1667030501_1677948_6340131_n.jpg


That is more than alright, I understand that things happen.

I must say that I love their shaggy coats. 

And they look about the same "thickness" as my girls... except for Momma, she has lost some of her over conditioning.


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## Goatmasta

imho...  If these 2 does were shaved they would look nothing like the Boer cross we have been discussing...


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## elevan

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> imho...  If these 2 does were shaved they would look nothing like the Boer cross we have been discussing...


I tend to agree...their shaggy coats seem to be what is giving them their "meaty" look and not an underlying meatiness.

I could be wrong...


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> imho...  If these 2 does were shaved they would look nothing like the Boer cross we have been discussing...


I agree.  Fleshiness from overconditioning is not the same as meatiness and round bone.


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## AlaskanShepherdess

I've talked with local breeders about this line of goats and they have said that they ended up culling most from this line that they had acquired because they are big boned and meaty. If I posted a comparison pic of my girls that have good conformation I think it would show how much of a difference there is. I have one girl that has really good conformation and yet is WAY over conditioned, but you can still really tell the difference in the meatiness and the bones.

I do have to agree that Livinwrights girl looks like a boer kind of meaty though.


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