# Banding & Debudding



## Mitransplant (Apr 23, 2012)

Just called my vet and asked if they did castrating and the girl said yes. I then asked at what age and she said it didn't matter, any age. Well on different sights is says NOT to band them before 2 months of age to make sure everything is working right and the "wether" won't have urinary problems. I asked if they dehorned them and she had to ask but came back and said yes but not till they are two months old or horn is about half an inch.    Does all this sound about right?      Dummy me forgot to ask what they charged but since it has to be done guess I will have to pay what they want. Should be in and out on both things within 30-45 minutes I would think.    THANKS.


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## AdoptAPitBull (Apr 23, 2012)

I can't speak as much for banding time, but I do know that you should wait a few months so that their urethra has the chance to grow to prevent UC.

As far as the disbudding, that is waaaaaay off. Disbudding should be done no later than a few days or when you feel the horn buds and the hair makes a little cowlick on their heads. Definitely do NOT wait till they have broken through the skin! I think the vet must be doing de-horning surgery which is cruel, bloody, and dangerous.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 23, 2012)

No, because I have asked those same questions many times, since this year I had 15 babies for the first time. I've been told by mostly everyone, goat people, my vet and the vet tech who raises Boer goats and LaManchas, to NOT band before 2 months of age, because they can get Urinary calculi, and to disbud at anywhere from 3 days old, to about 12 days old, depending on when the little buds come out. Of course, there are some that can be disbudded later. I saw one done at the Goat Clinic I went to this weekend. His horns were about an inch long. They burned his horn 3 different times, peeling off the skin in between each time, and taking nippers and cutting off the little nubs. He was given pain medication and iodine on his burns. When I saw him in the truck a while later he had blood running down his face and the owners were going to take him home. 

I personally don't want my goats to go thru that procedure, so I have them disbudded as soon as I can feel the little nubs showing, and I castrate them when they are 2 months old.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 23, 2012)

I knew about the castrating at 2 months because of what I read at different sights, but was told that the vet waited till the "buds" were about a half inch before he would dehorn.  I may just let him have his horns if I can't find someone to do it like you all say you do yours.  I will NOT go in for the cruel part and have him crying and "screaming". There is NO reason to put a baby through that.  I would do it myself but not sure I could see through all the tears.  I would be crying right along with him.  How can someone do that and listen to them cry?  Are they really that cold hearted to hurt a little baby like that?


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## Mitransplant (Apr 23, 2012)

Just talked to hubby and he said we are NOT having Oreo's horns cut off and causing any discomfort to him. We will be doing the castration AFTER he is 2 months old.  If I thought I could do it I would get the stuff and try but why spend the money for just one goat?The vet must be doing the surgery and there is no reason for it. The only reason I was going to have it done was because the mother is but hey, what are a couple of little horns (big ones later).  Can always get some sort of tips for them so that he can't hurt me or himself or other goats with them.   THANK you all for your input on this subject.


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## Missy (Apr 23, 2012)

At tractor supply you can get the whole banding equipment for around 15-20 bucks(or about).

At the vet it costs about 35 dollars for the office visit, then usually since it is a quick procedure, they either have a set price of 5-10 bucks or charge by the minute(usually around 3.00 a minute from the time the vet walks in the office room till the time the vet finishes. It may be cheaper to buy the bander and do it yourself. Or find someone reasonably close to do it for you. Call around.


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## SassyKat6181 (Apr 23, 2012)

I have seen posts on Craigslist for local farmers offering small people like us to come to their farm and have them disbud for us.  I think I would prefer to go and watch than try it out by myself the first few times.  Try checking around you and see if there is anyone with goats that could do it for you.  If you have other goats without horns, then Oreo probably shouldn't have horns either.


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## Mamaboid (Apr 23, 2012)

We have a mixed hornless and horned herd with no problems at all.


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## purplequeenvt (Apr 23, 2012)

In regards to the dehorning question......I'm not super qualified to answer, but here are my 2 cents.

I think the ideal would be to disbud when they under 1 month old, but it is not necessarily cruel to dehorn later. For example, I just got 2 little girls (8 weeks) and they were not disbudded so they had horns that were an inch to an inch and a half long. I really don't like horns and I feel that, given the number of "city-slickers" and kids that come to visit us, it is unsafe to have horned animals. We took the girls to the vet (just this past Thursday) to have it done. The goats were knocked out, lidocaine (sp?) was injected at the base of the horns, and then the vet took the nippers and snipped the horns off as close to the base as possible. She (the vet) then took the iron and burned around the edges to cauterize (there wasn't much blood) and to kill any potential regrowth. The whole procedure took about 10 minutes per goat. The goats were groggy for a day and a bit tender for a couple more days, but they are back to normal now.

I would ask your vet what their procedure for dehorning is. If they knock the goat out completely, your baby shouldn't feel anything. In the end though, it comes down to whether or not you are comfortable with having a horned goat around.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 23, 2012)

Wow, I've never heard of any vets around that do it like that, knock them out. I would so go for that rather than the screaming when they get disbudded with the iron. I absolutely hate to have to do it, but the kids can't show their market wethers with horns. I personally don't LIKE horns on goats, our buck gets his caught in the fence all the time. The first does I ever bought ( I did NOT have a clue.....) all had horns, they were like 4 months old. SO I started out WITH horns, I remember the first day I put them in their large pen, I would hear a baby screaming bloody murder and I picked them out of the fence at least a dozen times a day.   They've all learned now to NOT do that I guess, I haven't had to get anyone out of the fence, except for the buck.


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## elevan (Apr 23, 2012)

I would seriously consider looking for another vet...

You should be able to find another goat owner close to you to do the banding for you or just buy the stuff (under $20) and then sell it afterwards.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and input.   I have decided to disbud the little guy.  There is a guy not to far from here that says he does it and has his own goats but he is busy with doing hay right now so in a week or so I am to call back and he will make arrangements to disbud Oreo. He said for his own personal reasons he won't disbud till they are 1 month old. BUT IF I am sure I want it done at one month then he will do it. OR I can call the vet back and talk to them about the procedure.  
I have been reading so much the past few hours about banding and it not being the best way now. I don't know what to do there. I know he has to be fixed but what is the best and least painless way for him.   ANY thoughts?   PROs    CONs      I really need some help here for my little Oreo.
Hubby said that if mom doesn't have horns then why should he. Just to be safe so that he can't hurt her or anyone else he needs to be disbudded.    Can I just go to bed and pull the covers up and all this go away????

I really need everyone's idea as the best and most painless way to castrate him. I know it is my decision but all replies are welcome and I will consider all your answers before I make up my  mind.     THANKS!


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## manybirds (Apr 23, 2012)

for banding i normally go 6-7 weeks and for disbudding about 4 days for bucklings and 1 week for doelings


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## Mitransplant (Apr 23, 2012)

Not sure IF I could do the banding my self and I can't get the vet to touch Oreo till he is  1 month old.  Now what do I do?  I WILL NOT burn my baby myself.  I am going to call the vet tomorrow and ask if they put them to sleep like someone else mentioned. If not guess I am stuck having someone do it and listening to him and ME cry!


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## BlondeSquirrel04 (Apr 24, 2012)

Disbudding is not as bad as you think. Once you do it, you'll realize it was much easier than you thought.

Waiting till one month? That will be cruel. You will essentially be doing it for nothing. I learned this the hard way waiting 2-3 weeks for some doelings while I found someone. If you can feel his buds growing, it's time. The longer you wait, the more likely it'll be that he'll need it done again, or that it will have been for nothing because he'll still have horns.

I'd say to find someone else fast or buy an iron before it's too late. Good luck!!


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## Mitransplant (Apr 24, 2012)

I know I CAN'T do it myself and I am going to call a couple of other vets about 20 miles away and see if they will do it. IF not, I have no other choice but to wait a month.  The draw backs of living in a small town 30 miles away from the big city but who's to say there would be a vet there.  Will do some calling today and hopefully I can find someone.


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## SassyKat6181 (Apr 24, 2012)

Here's a Craigslist post for a farm in Springfield......they offer disbudding and banding.  You should give them a call

http://springfield.craigslist.org/grd/2930074181.html


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## nomad (Apr 24, 2012)

Horn disbudding is the same process no matter what age it is performed.  No matter the process chosen to stop the horn growth---If the process is painful at 1 day of age it is just as painful at 1 year of age.  Pain has nothing to do with age.   

Are there 'less' painful ways of performing this task?  Does anyone truly know this answer---for I have never heard a goat speak.  I do know by the goat's body language that they are not enjoying it.  You could have the vet put them 'to sleep' but also recognize that being put to sleep and being disbudded is still very stressful on the body.  

I performed this task one year many years ago when I first started with goats.  From that day forward I never chose to disbud another goat.  (Neither I nor anyone else for me)

Yes, I have had horned, polled, and disbudded goats on the same farm in the same herd.  In fact, in my herd of of 20 dairy goats today, only two are disbudded.  One disbudded is herd queen (14 years old) and the other is lowest rank of the older does.  The rest of the horned does are somewhere in between or lower in rank.  I allow my bucks to run with my does and the bucks are horned, too.

I have learned that a mean goat is mean no matter if they have horns or not.  The non-horned mean goat will 'pick' on a horned goat just as easily as a non-horned.  Mean is mean.  .   Mean goats left my farm directly---regardless of their horn disposition.

Most of my goats butt heads and don't use the horn as a spear.

And, my goats have used their horns to scratch their backs and flanks.

I hope I have given an example that horned, polled, and disbudded goats can live together well in a herd.

Good luck in your decision.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks, this did help.  I really don't want to have Oreo disbudded or castrated. I worry about him trying to breed with his mother later on if he isn't. Want to sell Nutmeg and use that money to buy another black and white doe so that he would have someone to breed with. Hubby wants to keep him as well, loves his coloring. We have SO many decisions to make and lots to think about.   THANK YOU for all your input and I really do appreciate it, good or bad.


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## nomad (Apr 24, 2012)

> I worry about him trying to breed with his mother later on if he isn't.


_I do not understand your meaning in the above statement._

I have used sons to breed mothers, fathers to breed daughters, brothers to sisters, etc.  If the goats contain the genetics I want to continue onward, then I continue to use line breeding. 

If a goat possesses unhealthy genetics it doesn't matter who is bred to whom---those genetics are passed onward no matter the family or non-family link.  Genetics are influenced by nutrition and environment.  Many people believe in the principle of genetic determinism which states that genes are not influenced by nutrition or health.  (I have studies that support this statement)

_Or, was your statement pertaining to the following:_

If you were worried that he would breed her when you didn't want him to do so.  Then separate him from her during her breeding season.  If she is a 'tropical' goat and able to breed all year---then it would be best to sell the buck and buy a doe for a companion goat---as you already stated.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 24, 2012)

I was told NOT to inbreed family members. That is what I was talking about.   Like you mentioned you breed fathers and daughters, etc.  I was told I would end up with strange or deformed kits. THAT is the only reason I was thinking about castrating him.    IS it alright for him to breed his mother?  I am NOT after a perfect herd, just a few goats for my own personal entertainment AND for the milk. Not going to show or raise kids and sell for high prices. Just pets and fun.
I didn't think any animal should breed with a sibling or parent like humans shouldn't because of mental and other problems. I don't want a stupid goat (LOL).  Why would people say you can't breed them if you do and have no problems????

That was my only reason for not wanting him to breed his mother later on. I do have another doe he could breed with when they are ready. I love the black and white coloring on him and his mother and would like more black and whites.

Don't think I could sell him now. I have already fell in love with him. I would sell Nutmeg before Oreo.  Don't want a hole lot of goats but just enough to keep me in milk.  I am keeping Oreo but I don't have another fenced off area to put him to keep him away from the does.


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## elevan (Apr 24, 2012)

It's *not *likely that you'll end up with "strange or deformed" kids.  But you have to understand that inbreeding enhances both good *and *bad characteristics because they carry similar / same genes.  Do people inbreed?  Yes.  When it works out good they call it linebreeding.  When results are poor it's usually referred to as inbreeding.  Linebreeding and inbreeding are the same thing, just different end terms depending on results.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks for clearing that  up for me.  I am still torn as to what to do.  I don't want to hurt him in any way so might just leave him and see how the horn thing works. Guess I could get plastic tips or use a bag of padding and duck tape it to his horns, LOL    But I seriously would just like to leave him be like  as mother nature or what ever higher power made him. They didn't mutilate animals back in the day so why do it now?    THANKS for all your help.


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## nomad (Apr 24, 2012)

Mitransplant said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that  up for me.  I am still torn as to what to do.  I don't want to hurt him in any way so might just leave him and see how the horn thing works. Guess I could get plastic tips or use a bag of padding and duck tape it to his horns, LOL    But I seriously would just like to leave him be like  as mother nature or what ever higher power made him. They didn't mutilate animals back in the day so why do it now?    THANKS for all your help.


The development of a fertilized egg into a complete organism is not merely following the genetic instructions carried by the egg and sperm.

_Not so many years ago, people believed that traits were determined by genes, and that the development of an organism was the result of--was caused by--the sequential expression of genes in the nucleus of the fertilized egg. When B.F. Skinner in the 1970s said a gestating baby isn't influenced by what happens to its mother, he was expressing a deeply rooted bio-medical dogma. Physicians insisted that a baby couldn't be harmed by its mother's malnutrition, as long as she lived to give birth._ *(Dr. Ray Peat - PhD - Academic authoritarians, language, metaphor, animals, & science)*

_An ovum doesn't just grow from an oocyte according to instructions in its genes, it is constructed, with surrounding nurse cells adding substances to its cytoplasm. Analogously, the fertilized egg doesn't just grow into a human being, it is constructed, by interactions with the mother's physiology. At birth, the environment continues to influence the ways in which cells develop and interact with each other.

Even during adulthood, the ways in which our cells--in the brain, immune system, and other organs--develop and interact are shaped by the environment._

We have all been exposed to families where the mother and father had absolutely no relation to each other and yet had a Down Syndrome baby or one possessing some other type of deformity.   Certainly, inbreeding does not explain this situation.  How many families do have parents where they are related to some degree and have what appear to be perfectly normal children.  Animals are no different.  They are now diagnosing babies at birth with cancer.  How can this be if the mother had no cancer in her body until her 30's or 40's?  It could not be argued that she "had it in her genes" as most think about genes since she did not herself possess the cancer at birth.  Again, it is an acquired characteristic showing up in the baby due to the mother's poor health.

An example:
_Our brain grows into our culture, and the culture lives in our nervous system. If a person grows up without hearing people speak, he will have grown a special kind of brain, making it difficult to learn to speak. (Genie, wolf boy, Kaspar Hauser, for example.)_

I can't specifically answer your question about whether it is OK to breed the son to the mother since I do not know their state of health.  I am trying to give a framework for you to be able to determine if they are both suitable.   I also know from previous years experience that registered stock can be "junk".  I have learned not to trust paperwork or the conformity of the ram or buck alone.  The doe and ewe are actually more important to the end product (offspring) since she is the one providing the growing environment during gestation.  Her health has everything to do with whether you will be successful going forward.

We are guilty of linebreeding all the time.  Not because we don't have motivation to change up our stock, but rather because we trust our stock and know that they are quality and healthy.  We closed off our herds/flocks several years ago and will not buy anything off the farm again due to the prevalence of sickness in many herds.

_When we ask a question and find an answer, we are changed. Thinking with learning is a developmental process. But many people learn at an early age not to question. This changes the nature of subsequent learning and brain development._  An inquisitive mind is a healthy mind that will ultimately find the correct answer.

Hope this information helps in your decision.  Many of the decisions we make are not easy, but our character is shown by the framework by which we arrive at our answer.


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## dhansen (Apr 24, 2012)

I just spent the afternoon clipping hooves and banding 7 bucklings.  No fun!  ANy of you use an emasculator rather than banding?  I am wondering if the bucklings have less pain and/or it isn't for as long of a time.
The boys are all crying.


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## elevan (Apr 24, 2012)

dhansen said:
			
		

> I just spent the afternoon clipping hooves and banding 7 bucklings.  No fun!  ANy of you use an emasculator rather than banding?  I am wondering if the bucklings have less pain and/or it isn't for as long of a time.
> The boys are all crying.


I've heard too many times of emasculator castrations having to be redone...not a method that I would use for that reason alone.  

Cutting is the quickest method.

No way is pain free.  A quick shot of banamine prior to the castration will ease the the discomfort.


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## Bedste (Apr 24, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

> No, because I have asked those same questions many times, since this year I had 15 babies for the first time. I've been told by mostly everyone, goat people, my vet and the vet tech who raises Boer goats and LaManchas, to NOT band before 2 months of age, because they can get Urinary calculi, and to disbud at anywhere from 3 days old, to about 12 days old, depending on when the little buds come out. Of course, there are some that can be disbudded later. I saw one done at the Goat Clinic I went to this weekend. His horns were about an inch long. They burned his horn 3 different times, peeling off the skin in between each time, and taking nippers and cutting off the little nubs. He was given pain medication and iodine on his burns. When I saw him in the truck a while later he had blood running down his face and the owners were going to take him home.
> 
> I personally don't want my goats to go thru that procedure, so I have them disbudded as soon as I can feel the little nubs showing, and I castrate them when they are 2 months old.


This is exactly what I do.  Disbud at 10 days ------and when I need to I will band after 2 mo (have not kept a wether yet) 

I have a friend who disbudded later and the goat suffered and it now grows a little bitty horn on one side that she has to trim off every month...  I think the 10 days is important... right before they break through the skin


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## Siouxqie (May 2, 2012)

We had a pair of twins disbudded once, and I will never do it again.  I just don't have the stomach for it.


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## Missy (May 3, 2012)

All of my goats have been disbudded, the last one almost 9 weeks ago. The next one is going tommorrow. I am hoping it goes as well for for my little girl as it did for my buckling. Personally, if my first 2 goats were not disbudded, I wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the herd.


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## redtailgal (May 3, 2012)

My guys and gals are not disbudded.  I dont have an issue with horns, so I left them alone.  The only way that would remove horns is by the burning method, but I am too much of a wuss to do it myself, lol.

We band.  I dont trust a emasculator, heard of it having to be redone too many times.   Sure, if you do it right, it works, but a squirming large frightened critter makes it hard to get it just right.  
I have attended and assisted with the cutting method a couple times.  Its quick, and they get up and get over it quickly, and when done correctly there is very little blood.  I dont use this method either, because as I said before, I am a wuss.  I cant handle the crying.  And I've now seen two kids get an infection in their scrotal sac after the cutting method was performed.

We banded our boys, just like we have banded calves for years.  It went smoothly, they didnt cry and neither did I.  I did give a little ibuprofen to them afterwards (I will do it 30  minutes before the procedure from now on).  They were up and feelin froggy again in no time.


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