# Johnes Disease



## Scooby308 (Oct 12, 2015)

I've been very conscious of disease prevention as I've visited several farms. Take my boots off and bag them before I get inthe car to come home then clean them with bleach solution. The more I read on the disease the more worried I get. We have a huge deer and turkey population here that roam from farm to farm.

While the rate of disease in wildlife is lower, what are the real odds? From what I've read, I believe that wildlife has a lower probability due to their ability to browse on different matters of forage and not being pinned in the same area. That said, there are lots of cattle farms in the area so they are coming into contact more than likely.

My land was a cattle farm that had a huge die out about a decade ago. When we bought it and started tinkering we found lots of dead cows. The land has lain fallow for at least 8 years with the exception of hay cutting in the last 2 years.

Am I being overly concerned?

http://www.johnes.org


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## Latestarter (Oct 12, 2015)

I know from your postings that you are, or seem to be, primarily interested in Nubian/mini Nubians. Since Nubians and their crosses seem to be the only goats affected by this possible genetic defect, why not choose a different breed? There are mini Alpines and mini Lamanchas (my personal fave), or I would guess even mini Saanens... All of which produce excellent milk... Just a thought. It might also open up additional opportunities for excellent stock, closer to home.


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## frustratedearthmother (Oct 12, 2015)

@Latestarter - are you perhaps thinking of G6S?  That particular defect is indeed more prevalent in Nubians than other breeds.   Unfortunately Johnes disease is an equal opportunity offender and can strike any breed of goat/cow/sheep/deer/bison/elk... or other ruminant.


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## Latestarter (Oct 12, 2015)

So sorry... cross thread ineptitude... I WAS researching G6S (for another post), not Johne's... My apologies!

"All ruminants are susceptible to _Johne's disease_." from many sources


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## Southern by choice (Oct 12, 2015)

You can have the soil tested.

Do you know why the cattle died?
The threat by wildlife is extremely low. You would also have guardian animal, I suspect, which will keep deer out. 

Johnes.org should be able to tell you where approved labs are for testing.

So glad you are doing your research. 
I am just shocked out how much old info and inaccurate info many vets  have about this. I think Johnes org even did an article about vets not giving accurate info on the subject. 
I don't really blame the vets, they are responsible for so many species and so much new info.
I am thankful for their work.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 12, 2015)

An Anatolian is in the future. I'm hoping that hot wire along the top of the fence will help till then.

The previous owner was letting a fellow rent the pasture before we bought it. We found 2 dead calves in the barn and 5 dead along the woodline and another near the pond when we bought it. There were syringes all over the place. He thought he could stop whatever it was but failed.

The paddocks are nowhere near the barn or pond.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 12, 2015)

Scooby308 said:


> An Anatolian is in the future. I'm hoping that hot wire along the top of the fence will help till then.
> 
> The previous owner was letting a fellow rent the pasture before we bought it. We found 2 dead calves in the barn and 5 dead along the woodline and another near the pond when we bought it. There were syringes all over the place. He thought he could stop whatever it was but failed.
> 
> The paddocks are nowhere near the barn or pond.


    

UC Davis just sent out their newsletter... says that the Johne's Test manufacturer has changed the limits for positive and suspect to increase the sensitivity of the test. 

The big thing here is every goat owner really does have the potential to have this in there herd. Cannot wait til we are completely closed. We use the testing as a management tool. So far every year we test whole herd negative... but you know the new stock you bring in might have it and it just hasn't shown up yet. Always nervous.

This year (actually 2016) we are moving to all fecal tests.

Wonder if it was severe respiratory that just went through or blackleg with the cattle. I know Kentucky went through some ridiculous weather with rain snow ice that was unusual for them last year. May have been the year before... Any neighbors know anything?

You will love an Anatolian... but get 2.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 12, 2015)

The die off was before we bought the property,@ 10 years ago. It was way over grazed and he was feeding hay in summer. When we got it we used dad's tractor to drag all the dead into the feed lot. There was tons of hay we rolled over them and burned. The guy leasing it disappeared after we bought it. No clue? We still find bones from time to time cleaning around the woodline.


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## secuono (Oct 12, 2015)

Based on the website, no test is 100%, other than necropsy. 
=/
So testing is kind of meh. If even animals with active symptoms come back negative, why bother? 

Are they working on a better test that is more accurate?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 12, 2015)

Yes, necropsy is great- when the animal is dead and it has already been spreading it through your herd or flock. 

No test is 100% that is why you do whole herd/flock testing.
If I have been testing for 5 years , whole herd, consecutively and every animal every year is negative that is a greater indicator than that of single one time test.

The majority of any kind of testing has its flaws but when used as herd management you certainly will have a better understanding of where you stand health wise. 

Seeing how it can be passed through the milk this also affects breeding does, ewes. 

Johnes is also zoonotic.  

Affects _all_ ruminants.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 12, 2015)




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## secuono (Oct 13, 2015)

What if you show? 
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a closed flock and all that intense and expensive testing? 
You can't QT for 5 years and keep testing or set up a separate flock just to show them...


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## secuono (Oct 13, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> View attachment 11871



That's the whole point of a forum, though.
To constantly ask questions, learn and hopefully gather new info.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 13, 2015)

so if you close your herd, what kind of protocol would you follow when you need to add new bloodlines?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 13, 2015)

secuono said:


> What if you show?
> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a closed flock and all that intense and expensive testing?
> You can't QT for 5 years and keep testing or set up a separate flock just to show them...


We don't show, and that is one reason why. For now anyway.  
We can do virtual show with the minis and still do LA and DHIR testing which is wonderful. 

I know you have sheep and I think, if I remember right you do the testing for the Q & R (forgot what it is called... but some people we know do their flock of 250-300 sheep... the lab made an error... long story short some of their RR's were QQ's.
It was a nightmare for them... they got it all worked out called who they needed to etc.  but even though that is a DNA test I would still do at least one repeat to confirm. 

With the other tests it really is so individual. I am aware of several herds that have CL rampant they will never get rid of it because they don't "believe" in testing so they just cull the ones with lumps. IMO that could have been nipped in the bud years ago through monitoring titer levels and keeping a closer eye on it. More than likely they have internal CL at this point.  

A lady I know had a positive Johnes from one animal, it has gone through 2 levels of testing at 1.50 each and is now on the fecal culture test. Meanwhile she will not send any goats off her land period because she know s that if positive her kids from last year may have been exposed- she doesn't want anyone to end up with this in their herd. She had a closed herd for years... then she brought in a wether for a short period of time. 
Whats really annoying is her results should be back by know... her vet keeps saying they haven't gotten them yet. The advice from her vet was to place the animal as a pet somewhere else.

IMO the hardest thing is it is getting harder to find stock that does do yearly consecutive testing. So any animal you buy is a risk really. Kinda stinks. 

The testing may not be perfect but at least I know I have done all I can to send off kids to their new homes and spare someone the heartbreak of disease coming in.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 13, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> so if you close your herd, what kind of protocol would you follow when you need to add new bloodlines?



Only purchase from tested herds. Avoiding single test but whole herd and at least several years of consecutive negatives.

AND SEE THE Paperwork. 

We purchased a few goat kids from a great breeder, breeding for 30 some years. Wonderful people. I never asked to look at the paperwork... honestly didn't not feel the need they were honest, good people. Got a call a few months later... they had just found out they had CAE in their herd. I won't go into details but it was heartbreaking for them for us for everyone. We sent the goats back. Fortunately they were kids and never bred etc. and had them for a short period of time. Regardless we still retested our whole herd although no  real risk... 
if I would have asked, it wouldn't have changed the  outcome for them but it would have spared us the agony of giving the does back, it also would have given them the knowledge  sooner rather than later. 
It all boils down to the vet having the paperwork and was looking at the wrong test results. All could have been avoided from the start if both parties. VET AND OWNER had results. The error would have been found. Herd owners have a responsibility. 
There are many farms I ask if I can see a copy of the paperwork... I hear all the time, "My vet has it". Some people THINK their vet is testing for one thing and they end up finding out the vet isn't. Usually when someone gets the persons animal and while in quarantine they test and the test turns out positive. I cannot tell you HOW MANY times this has happened to people in the goat world. IMO it is a* shared responsibility* not just the vets not just the owners. 

A mini buck I was looking at was so called "tested' when I asked for test result copies (they were FAR away out of state) they said it would take a few days as they would have to get it from their vet. 
When the person did send the results it was clear this was no goat vet. NOT one test for goats was done... just some cattle test.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 13, 2015)

When we purchased our 3 does- we were given a copy of the test paper work to show they were neg.- the owner had it done directly.  We tested our 1younger doe once she turned 6 months old and she only joined the herd once the results were back(she was neg. too).  We plan to test everyone- 6 months and older- within the next 2 weeks.  We pull the blood ourselves and send it in so all results are sent back directly to us.


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## secuono (Oct 13, 2015)

SouthernbyChoice- Codon 171 for scrapie resistance. 

I've had only one person ask about Johnes and OPP testing.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 13, 2015)

secuono said:


> SouthernbyChoice- Codon 171 for scrapie resistance.
> 
> I've had only one person ask about Johnes and OPP testing.



I have noticed very few sheep people test for anything. 
Any thoughts as to why?


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## secuono (Oct 13, 2015)

Your guess is as good as mine!

I'm hoping to have my flock tested for Johnes and OPP next year, just have to find a vet that is experienced with sheep and not just putting me on hold to "Google it"!     I can do that myself...lol.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 13, 2015)

secuono said:


> Your guess is as good as mine!
> 
> I'm hoping to have my flock tested for Johnes and OPP next year, just have to find a vet that is experienced with sheep and not just putting me on hold to "Google it"!     I can do that myself...lol.



Drawing your own blood is very easy. First step ... where are you sending the testing?  
Sheep may be harder if they have their full fleece. Best time is after shearing. Also if they are real flighty. But once you have hold of them it is't bad. Actually may be easier to tip them. Still will take 2 people.

Will you do serum check or collective fecal for Johnes?


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## secuono (Oct 13, 2015)

I could never get it right, blood drawing that is, that's why I need a good vet. Plus, it's just me, DH would make things worse. =/


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## Southern by choice (Oct 13, 2015)

Have you checked with your closest vet school? Maybe even your extension service can do it or recommend someone.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 16, 2015)

The wife has been in the medical field for over 25 years. She's done it all. I think she could draw in animals,now actually getting her to do it is a goat of a different color. I have done it in dogs.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 16, 2015)

Scooby308 said:


> The wife has been in the medical field for over 25 years. She's done it all. I think she could draw in animals,now actually getting her to do it is a goat of a different color. I have done it in dogs.



Draws on goats are easier than in dogs. LOL 
How is your search going? If you find some good ""clean" herds you will have to let me know.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 16, 2015)

At this point in thinking of raising horses. No money in it, but at least I know what I am doing and can find good ones. Plus I have an Amish community here to trade with. Lol. Still waiting for a date to visit a lady that has Nubians and a supposed dairy setup.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 16, 2015)

No money it... yep same with goats. 
Difference= goat vet bills < horse vet bills.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 16, 2015)

I know there's no money in any if it. Seriously considering turning the whole farm into a hayfield.  At least i can make money off that...until the machinery breaks down, I have to re seed, build hay sheds,...is there any money in farming? Not on a small scale. Just looking at something that will help self sufficiency. Thinking full sized Nubs but that may be too big.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 16, 2015)

So... if you get Nubians I can get offspring from you.  Then I can breed for minis and have does to breed to my mini buck... See its a plan! 
That is why we have goats... milk, cheese, and meat. I wish I had the land to hay.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 16, 2015)

Sitting at the doctor now. See, you always have something that keeps you away from farming. 

I've actually been really lucky with my hay field. I didn't cut it the first couple of years. Then I bushhogged it 2-3 times a year. Then 3 years ago a guy offered to cut it on the halves, he roll baled. So I said take it all. The next year farmer down the road told me what a roll of bad hay brought and I thought, I could have made money... So the last 2 years my neighbor has been baling and selling it and I get half the profits. Win win for me. 

The lucky part is it hasn't needed to be reseeded in all this time. It is getting some problem spots that need to be dealt with. But it has never been chemically treated for weeds or fertilized. I'm actually thinking of cutting it short this year and reseeding with more alfalfa and timothy.


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