# Anybody familiar with pfizer's Glanvac 3 vaccine?



## cmjust0 (Aug 26, 2009)

I've seen references to it on pfizer's _Australian_ animal health website, and dammit...I want this vaccine in the US!

Yeah, we have Colorado Serum's Caseous D-T for sheep, but it's not currently (and may never be) approved on-label for use in goats because of all the apparent adverse reactions Colorado (and some producers) saw when testing it on goats..  

And, yeah, we have Case-Bac, which apparently works well in goats with minimal adverse reactions....but still....Glanvac 3 is a C/D-T and CL 3-in-1 approved for use in sheep, lambs, goats, and kids..  

And I want it!

Why can't we have it?!?!!!


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## lupinfarm (Aug 26, 2009)

Cm, it is because the world *sucks*, such is life really.  It's the same reason I can't get a lot of stuff here in Ontario that you can buy in the US. Lucky bums, with all your nifty vaccines, and other animal/livestock products! 

I think I'm going to go and sulk now....


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## trestlecreek (Aug 27, 2009)

The US typically has stiffer regulations regarding animal health/human safety. In the US, we like to eradicate for the most part.
How does the extended pamphlet read? What are the efficiency rates? How does vaccinated animals test out in the lab? Do vaccinated animals carry the disease? 
I'm sure there is something more to this,...just have to read more about it....
I'd rather just blame stiffer regulations, but they may be in place here for a good reason?


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## cmjust0 (Aug 28, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> The US typically has stiffer regulations regarding animal health/human safety. In the US, we like to eradicate for the most part.


Nobody seems to be working toward eradicating CL..  Few people even seem to be working toward _controlling_ CL except dairy people, which is annoying..



			
				tc said:
			
		

> How does the extended pamphlet read? What are the efficiency rates? How does vaccinated animals test out in the lab?


No access to vax = no pamphlet..  I did read a write up about a DNA-targetted sheep CL vaccine that's in development, and the control group either got Glanvac 3 or weren't vaccinated..

All the animals in the study -- 70, I think -- were challenged with a wild strain of CL 6 weeks after immunization..  Of the 10 which weren't vaccinated, 9 got CL..  

Conversely, 90% in the Glanvac group were CL-free, even after being basically injected with CL.

That's pretty good, IMO.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Do vaccinated animals carry the disease?


According to the article I read, no..  



			
				tc said:
			
		

> I'm sure there is something more to this,...just have to read more about it....
> I'd rather just blame stiffer regulations, but they may be in place here for a good reason?


I dunno..  All I know is that it's frustrating that there's an on-label CL vaccine for goats that's not available in the US..  

Kinda like the time I found out there's a Mazda 3 model in Europe that burns diesel and gets about 50mpg...but we can't have that here, either.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 28, 2009)

I agree, people don't eradicate,(hard to do when 1 goat in a backyard get's it and the owner doesn't realize what it is until the whole herd is infected) but the US would like for that to happen! 

Generally there is an extended insert for a vaccine. I'll try to find it.

There is a vaccine for Johnes for goats too and the US won't let us have it!! I find that frustrating too!!

What do ya do?

The US did do a survey of goat owners in attempts to identify what diseases(link below) were prevalent to help determine where we need to go as a nation. 
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publicati...tent/printable_version/sa_natl_goat_study.pdf 

Maybe with these results, goats will get better attention!!


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## broke down ranch (Aug 30, 2009)

Personally, I think the reason MANY things aren't approved in the US is because the cost of testing outweighs what they think it will earn in the long run. Basically, it's all about the money....at the moment they say there just isn't a lot of money to be made in goats.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 30, 2009)

Yep, that has something to do with it too. The gov. study was to see what the prevalent diseases are and it also looked at the # of producers...ideally, the results would help push pharmaceutical companies into more testing...


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## beckyburkheart (Jun 24, 2016)

>>There is a vaccine for Johnes for goats too and the US won't let us have it!! I find that frustrating too!!

It's available in the US, It is produced by Ft. Dodge Animal Health and sold by Solvay Animal Health under the trade name Mycopar®.  listed for cattle only, and as far as I can tell, available by vet Rx only. 

Does anyone have any detail or any more recent information?  I'm going to call my vet tomorrow and see what he has to say about it. 

I think I must have Johnes in my herd... these are all babies I've raised and their babies.  This has seemingly come on suddenly and it's breaking my heart.


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## Latestarter (Jun 25, 2016)

Greetings Becky... You have to take into account that you're responding to a 6 1/2 year old thread here. Much has changed over that time frame. From what I can see it is on label for cattle only, which would mean off label for goats... You can have a blood test done to determine if your herd has Johnes or not...  I hope that it's not.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 26, 2016)

beckyburkheart said:


> >>There is a vaccine for Johnes for goats too and the US won't let us have it!! I find that frustrating too!!
> 
> It's available in the US, It is produced by Ft. Dodge Animal Health and sold by Solvay Animal Health under the trade name Mycopar®.  listed for cattle only, and as far as I can tell, available by vet Rx only.
> 
> ...


How do you know you are battling Johnes? Have you actually had your animals tested? If so, what method? Necropsy? Fecal? Blood test? 

Vaccinating against a disease that you are not sure whether your herd has is a very bad idea! 

There are several things that can help Johnes, but you will need to talk to a vet or possibly a specialist about that.


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## beckyburkheart (Jun 29, 2016)

I would NEVER vaccinate without vet advice and support. I have a good equine specialist locally and they are working with me to find an experienced goat vet. 

I have talked to a several different vets now.  They don't think it's Johnes for two reasons.  1) they're saying it's extremely rare and 2) because it doesn't usually decimate a herd like I'm seeing. They say generally only about 10% of the animals will go down with it. I've had over 50% loss.

The blood test can be inconclusive and they want to necropsy.  Since I don't know in advance when one is going to die in order to take  off work to get the body to the vet during office hours, that means I have to have one euthanized to examine.

- yes, i realize this is an old thread, but it was the most relevant one i found.


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## Latestarter (Jun 29, 2016)

Truly sorry you're losing your herd to "something". I can only imagine your pain, anxiety and frustration. I can't think of any words to offer in support or diagnostic... You say you've lost 50% of your herd... What have been the symptoms? the time frame involved?

Just throwing this out there, but is there any possibility that your herd may have contracted CL which is affecting them internally? Can you take the weakest animal that you feel will be the next to go and get it to a vet for necropsy?

I really hope you'll let us know the outcome here as it could help someone else down the road if they experience the same sort of thing.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 29, 2016)

beckyburkheart said:


> I would NEVER vaccinate without vet advice and support. I have a good equine specialist locally and they are working with me to find an experienced goat vet.
> 
> I have talked to a several different vets now.  They don't think it's Johnes for two reasons.  1) they're saying it's extremely rare and 2) because it doesn't usually decimate a herd like I'm seeing. They say generally only about 10% of the animals will go down with it. I've had over 50% loss.
> 
> ...


So sorry you are dealing with this 

You may not see Johne's all the time, but I wouldn't say its extremely rare.


> In the U.S. it is estimated that 8% of the beef herds and 68% of the dairy herds contain at least one animal infected with MAP. - http://www.johnes.org/general/faqs.html#4



I know of a dairy goat breeder that lost their herd to Johne's years back.

I understand that is can be difficult to have a necropsy run. If you have a large cooler and maybe some ice, that should be okay for a little bit. How far is your state lab from you? We have several labs (not vet clinics- they are more thorough and you generally get a conclusive answer) and they are fantastic! They have coolers that you can drop dead animals off at anytime. Just make sure they are bagged properly and have the appropriate paperwork attached.    

Taking the weakest animal in to be put down & necropsied would be a good idea. Do they have any symptoms, or are you just finding them dead? 

Blood testing isn't the most accurate but I would still send out some tests, both the AGID an ELIZA tests for short term just to see what they say. At our lab its only $1.50 per test. Don't know what your lab charges.

A fecal test (culture) would be very good as well. This is more reliable then blood testing but takes time.

Have you checked for parasites?


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## beckyburkheart (Jun 29, 2016)

I really appreciate all the support.  This is so hard. 

I started a new job a couple of years ago and found it hard to maintain the stock as they needed.  In addition to severe reductions (20 horses down to 3, 80+ does down to 25... etc...) and figuring out in several ways that 'help' wasn't the way to go as care still suffered- i thought I had reduced enough and found some balance .  They seemed fine up until they freshened this spring.  we started losing a few by the time the first kids were about 6wks old and it's been a chaotic downward spiral.

they're on good pasture plus getting good hay and more grain than they will eat.  we've wormed and again, "over dosed" on the wormer, and purged, including changing wormers and updated all shots.

some have looked great through it all, fat and shiny.  many have gotten thin and somewhat recovered.  the one's we've lost have lost weight and lost the use of their back legs, and developed severe diarrhea. They've maintain a bright eye and strong appetite up until the end. 

We thought about meningeal worms, retreated with overdoses of ivermec and dmso for spinal inflammation (as iv'e used before in different cases under vet's supervision).  we had slight improvement in a couple of them and thought we had it figured out but have since been hit hard with another downward spiral. In the last week or so, i have two that i expected to have gone by now that seem to be holding steady and none of the others seem to be getting worse except we've lost several kids that seemed to be fine as far as energy and weight. - so i don't know.  

the goat vet i've found says "worms are bad this year".  he wants to necropsy ($200+), then sell me wormer and vitamins - he's already said.   So honestly, i'm not sure i'm going to do that.  if he's right about the worms, then I may not have given them enough time to recover. If he's wrong about the worms, he sounds like he's already made his mind up anyway. ...


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## beckyburkheart (Jun 29, 2016)

forgot to say - i've seen CL and we're not seeing any tumors.  i know you don't always, but i think if thats what it was, with this many, at least a few tumors would be evident.


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## babsbag (Jun 29, 2016)

Usually you won't see Johne's in kids and you can't even test them until they are 18 months old. The blood test is reliable if you have not vaccinated your animals, which you haven't.  Also, diarrhea is not common in goats with Johne's.  I would test your oldest goats in the herd and any that you have bought. If they are clean then their offspring will be clean if there is no cattle on the land.

I would get a fecal done and draw blood on the ones that look the worst and the best and send it in for a mineral analysis. If you are going to pay for a necrospy I would make certain that it is done by a lab that can run tests and grow cultures. CAE, CL, Johnes, TB, Brucellossis, and Mycoplasma. Also a full mineral workup. Texas A&M would be a good choice, you can ship it FedEx or maybe your vet would do it and send in tissue and blood samples.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 29, 2016)

beckyburkheart said:


> I would NEVER vaccinate without vet advice and support. I have a good equine specialist locally and they are working with me to find an experienced goat vet.
> 
> I have talked to a several different vets now.  They don't think it's Johnes for two reasons.  1) they're saying it's extremely rare and 2) because it doesn't usually decimate a herd like I'm seeing. They say generally only about 10% of the animals will go down with it. I've had over 50% loss.
> 
> ...



I agree with Babs about the necropsy.  A veterinarian is not a pathologist and most likely can't do all of the lab work required.

They can do a "gross" necropsy and look for obvious things


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## beckyburkheart (Jun 29, 2016)

Thank you so much!  I feel like I've been blind.  I've worked with A&M before.  I'll get some samples to them ASAP.


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## Latestarter (Jun 29, 2016)

I'd hesitate to use a vet that already has his mind made up... A state lab is many times better as a choice. Wishing you luck!


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## babsbag (Jun 29, 2016)

Mineral analysis is usually done in a blue top tube so they can test for zinc. I say do the best and the worst and compare the results.  I had a kid die last year from selenium deficiency at 4 months of age, no signs of illness at all; came home and he was dead in the feeder. Also lost a doe about the same time, results were inconclusive on her. 

I would definitely have a vet do a fecal for you, shouldn't cost that much. If you do send in an animal for a necropsy I would ask about other diseases or parasites too, like Giardia. I have no idea what the symptoms are other than scours but when you are grasping at straws grab them all. 

Hope you can get some answers.


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## babsbag (Jun 29, 2016)

BTW, I read that the suggested treatment for goats that show symptoms of meningial worm is now Fenbenzadol, (Safeguard) at 10 x the label dosage. But it also says that the damage cannot be reversed so if your goats showed improvement after the Ivermectin perhaps it is not meningial worm.  Just a thought and another straw to grasp at.


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## beckyburkheart (Jun 30, 2016)

i read ivermec, i didn't see the change to fenbenzadol.  we've used that but not at that dosage.  i can definitely do that.

i know the damage can't be reversed, but my thought was that the inflammation the worms actual presence and ongoing activity caused could be reduced to give the goat comfort and help them recover in general - if they could.


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## babsbag (Jun 30, 2016)

This is where I saw the advice to change treatment. Not saying they are right but worth a try. 

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/meningealworm.html

I know how frustrating and heartbreaking it can be to see animals go downhill while you stand back and watch after trying all that you know to do. Goats can be so complicated at times.


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## beckyburkheart (Jul 1, 2016)

Thank you for the link and again for the information. I've ordered a truckload of safeguard and will follow through with that treatment as soon as it comes in.


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## babsbag (Jul 1, 2016)

Hope it all gets figured out


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## beckyburkheart (Jul 18, 2016)

just popping back in to update.  we seem to have halted the downward spiral.  i don't know if was worms, meningeal worms or what. I don't know if we have fixed it or simply that the susceptible ones have all died.  We still have a few that are extremely thin, but they seem to be holding their own and the remaining ones are looking better in general.   

I really appreciate everyone's support here.


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## babsbag (Jul 18, 2016)

Glad things are getting better for you. Did you treat with Safeguard?


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## Latestarter (Jul 18, 2016)

Hope things continue to improve for you and them. Also hope you'll continue to let us know how they're doing.


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