# Safeguard as dewormer...any opinions?



## Mama2B&D&nowgoatstoo (Jul 9, 2011)

Thanks much


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## elevan (Jul 10, 2011)

For specific worms it's a good one...though most use it at 3x the goat labeled dose due to resistance in their area (I do as well).  But it doesn't work for all worm types.



> There are three "classes" of deworming medication _(in the US)_:
> 
> 1) Avermectin (Ivermectin). The "clear" dewormers. Ivomec, Dectomax, and Cydectin/Quest Gel fall into this category. Effective against meningeal deer worm, lungworm, and lice. Not effective against tapeworm. Although some Ivermectin is labeled for injection, it produces a quicker "kill" when given orally to goats (see below for details . Quest Gel is packaged in a plunger-style tube for use with large animals, making it both difficult and wasteful to use because calculating and controlling the dosage small enough for goats isn't easy.
> 
> ...


Source: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/articlesMain.html#Articles


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## ksalvagno (Jul 10, 2011)

I dose the liquid at 1cc per 10 lbs. You do need to know what worms you are treating as no wormer gets all worms.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 10, 2011)

I was actually going to be posting questions on Safeguard too.  We used the pelleted stuff with our older goats because we only had two, could make sure they ate the right amount, and it was very convenient.  Now we have three little doelings, all probably right around 10 pounds, and I am thinking we should deworm them next week when we give them CDT and disbud.

1.  I bought Safeguard because it was the only worm med our TSC had other than the pellets.  Should I use this on 3 and 4 week old goats or return it and get something else?  I would have to order it so it would be probably another week and I am not sure how old they really should be before their first time being wormed.

2.  Should I give Safeguard orally as per the directions or should it be injected (someone said to inject but that doesn't sound right to me)?

3.  Our pygmy is going to be three weeks and the two Nigerians will be four weeks on Wednesday.  The both weigh a bit over 10 pounds.  should I give them 1cc?

Any advice appreciated.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 10, 2011)

Here we would use ivermec (cattle pour on) and valbazen.  We have found safeguard to be ineffective.  Most other websites and producers agree with that, not saying that all will.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 10, 2011)

If you bought the liquid for goats, I would dose it at 1cc per 10 lbs. The labeled dosage isn't high enough. It really depends on your area what wormers work best. Safeguard can be used for young goats. You will also want to treat for coccidia. Usually 40% Dimethox is suggest to use. 1cc per 5 lbs the first day, then 1cc per 10 lbs days 2-5. Everything goes orally. I have NEVER heard of injecting Safeguard and would never try.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 10, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Here we would use ivermec (cattle pour on) and valbazen.  We have found safeguard to be ineffective.  Most other websites and producers agree with that, not saying that all will.


Yeah, you all have me sold-I'm taking it back and ordering Ivermec.  Is it too early to give it them?


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 10, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> If you bought the liquid for goats, I would dose it at 1cc per 10 lbs. The labeled dosage isn't high enough. It really depends on your area what wormers work best. Safeguard can be used for young goats. You will also want to treat for coccidia. Usually 40% Dimethox is suggest to use. 1cc per 5 lbs the first day, then 1cc per 10 lbs days 2-5. Everything goes orally. I have NEVER heard of injecting Safeguard and would never try.


Thank you!  I thought the injection thing sounded way wrong!  I sure wasn't about to do it and end up with some sick or dead little goats, ya know.  I am going to get something besides Safeguard though, since there are better ones out there.

Thanks again


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## Mama2B&D&nowgoatstoo (Jul 10, 2011)

gotcha...this wormin deal is pretty intricate  So much to learn! Thanks everyone for all the info!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 10, 2011)

I use the injectible Ivomec. I have heard that the pour on is fine to give orally but somehow can't do it. I buy the cattle 1% injectible. Most people dose it at lcc per 25 lbs orally.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 10, 2011)

pour on ivermec and injectable ivermec(1%) both are dosed @ 1cc/22lbs (orally)  some people do 1cc/25lbs, not that much difference.  We always round up to the nearest .5cc  You would rather over do it a little on the ivermec than under dose.


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## elevan (Jul 10, 2011)

Remember that Ivomec won't treat tapeworms.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 10, 2011)

Is there any reason I shouldn't go ahead and give them the Safeguard and then next week, when my vet is here, have them treated again with something else?  I'm going out to weight them to be more accurate with the dosage but kind of want to get something in them because the previous owners did not  treat for worms and it has me concerned.


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## elevan (Jul 10, 2011)

Melissa said:
			
		

> Is there any reason I shouldn't go ahead and give them the Safeguard and then next week, when my vet is here, have them treated again with something else?  I'm going out to weight them to be more accurate with the dosage but kind of want to get something in them because the previous owners did not  treat for worms and it has me concerned.


Forgive me if you've already said this...

Are the goats showing some symptoms that make you think they have worms?

The reason to not just throw_ any old_ dewormer at them without cause is that this type of action is what helps breed worm resistance.  Not every dewormer will work for every worm.  There is not one dewormer out there that works for all worms.  Just because the previous owner didn't ever deworm them doesn't mean that they are going to be loaded with worms.

I would suggest that if you are having the vet out next week anyway that you simply wait and have them do a fecal to find out what (if anything) that you are dealing with.  _Unless...there is a concern right now due to symptoms that they are showing that would lead you to believe that if you don't deworm them that they would be seriously in jeopardy...I would wait._


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 10, 2011)

Gotcha.  No, no symptoms, just young and new to the herd and never treated before so I was worried they might get something.  I will hold off and do a fecal first.  Thank you so much-now I'll quit being a nervous new goat parent.   So in love with these girls-can't get enough!


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## elevan (Jul 10, 2011)

Melissa said:
			
		

> Gotcha.  No, no symptoms, just young and new to the herd and never treated before so I was worried they might get something.  I will hold off and do a fecal first.  Thank you so much-now I'll quit being a nervous new goat parent.   So in love with these girls-can't get enough!


Young goats here get Coccidia prevention .  Something you may want to consider.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2011)

This is long and involved but very comprehensive and you will learn something....

http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/parasites.html


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 11, 2011)

Just had to share-I asked husband to pic up some dimethox 40% at TSC (I know they have it because I've looked at it before) and he came home empty handed.  He told the young girl at the counter he needed "meth something" and she just looked at him like he was nuts.  She asked what is was for and he said he didn't know and they had no idea what he was looking for based on that description.  I'll be making a trip into town later


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2011)

I work at the TSC in Marion, IN and...we do not and have never carried DiMethox.  I just reset the whole animal health area and I promise, it wasn't in it (I wish).
I suppose there's a chance they ordered some for a customer and it ended up on the shelf, but it's not something they stock, at least not in this region...


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

Melissa said:
			
		

> Just had to share-I asked husband to pic up some dimethox 40% at TSC (I know they have it because I've looked at it before) and he came home empty handed.  He told the young girl at the counter he needed "meth something" and she just looked at him like he was nuts.  She asked what is was for and he said he didn't know and they had no idea what he was looking for based on that description.  I'll be making a trip into town later




Around here they probably would have called the cops if someone came in asking for _METH something_!


And I've never seen Di-methox in either of the TSCs that I frequent around here


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 11, 2011)

Really?!  I could swear I picked up a powdered bag of it and was looking at the directions-it was yellow and white with a pic of a cow or something on it-maybe it was something else ( I am still kind of newbie even though we have had goats for a year and a half, especially since we have young kids for the first time).  Even still, I was giggling when he told be what had said to her-definitely not looking for meth .  Our TSC Valpo seems like they don't carry a lot of the stuff other TSC's have (like wormers).
Where do you all get your meds from usually.  I checked Valley Vet, Hoegger, and Caprine and found some stuff.


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## arabianequine (Jul 11, 2011)

@ Melissa here is a link  to some that elevan gave me http://www.jefferslivestock.com/search.asp?camid=LIV&ss=dimethox&search-submit=GO

Here is the thread talking about cocci prevention too. http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=10922&p=1


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks again!


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

I primarily use www.jefferslivestock.com  but there are times I need to use some of the other online suppliers too.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 11, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I primarily use www.jefferslivestock.com  but there are times I need to use some of the other online suppliers too.


Just ordered "Di-Methox Injection 40% 250ml and Ivomec-Pour On 250ml.  Nice that they had a promo running too and free shipping.  Was cheaper than the other feed store I called.

My medicine cabinet is starting to take shape.


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

Melissa said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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## arabianequine (Jul 11, 2011)

Melissa said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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That is great I will be too soon. I think I am going with Iver max however for 250 ml $15.95. 

Here is the link https://www.americanlivestock.com/shoppingcart.aspx if your interested for next time. 

I also seen on jeffers what you ordered says 0.5% ivermectin. 

Doesn't need to be 1% Ivermectin? Just so I get the right thing when I order and use newbies know what we need to get now and in the future.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 11, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> That is great I will be too soon. I think I am going with Iver max however for 250 ml $15.95.
> 
> Here is the link https://www.americanlivestock.com/shoppingcart.aspx if your interested for next time.
> 
> ...


Good question-I don't know-I thought I got the right stuff but now I'm going to go back and reread.  I saw injectable (though it seems others are saying give ir orally) and pour on and decided to get the pour on one but never looked to see what concentration it was.

*Just checked the site-it seems that the pour on kind is a lower concentration than the other kind.  I am also wondering now if I needed to buy a "gun" for this stuff or if I can just use a regular plastic syringe base-seems like that would be okay since I'm not doing cattle.*


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## arabianequine (Jul 11, 2011)

That is why I have not ordered or bought any yet....I want to make sure I get the right stuff. Why do things have to be so complicated. 

Did you get that blueish/purple box kind?

It says this in the description...."contains 5 mg ivermectin per mL". Hopefully some one will chime in and say that is the right dose still. 

Here is a web site I seen that the active ingredient should be 1% ivermectin. 

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/de-wormingandvac.html

Tons of info there on everything imaginable having to do with goats too. I see they are saying they give it to their goats (1cc/ml per 50 lbs). They use injectable and give it orally as well. That is what is so confusing that there are some many different ways people do things, different products to use etc.


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## arabianequine (Jul 11, 2011)

Melissa said:
			
		

> arabianequine said:
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I think a syringe would be the way to go needless of course and give it orally but now I am wondering if you double it now that it is a lower dose?


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

Ivermectin and Di-Methox are not the same thing and are not interchangeable.

You use the Ivermectin to treat stomach worms....Di-Methox for coccidia which is a protozoa.


Injectible Ivermectin is given orally and can be subbed out for the pour on version (given orally too) 1ml / 25# (some give 1ml / 22#)

You can simply draw it up into a syringe...remove the needle and squirt it into the back of the goats mouth.
You can get one of these http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=JI-FA&cn=31070  to put onto any luer lock syringe to make administering oral medicines easier.  You'll need to draw up a little water afterwards and squirt it into their mouth to make sure all the medicine is administered if you do it this way.  It'll help you get the med past their tongue and down their throat though.


And the Tennessee Meat Goats website is an awesome resource site.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 11, 2011)

The question about pour on vs. injectable...     Both are dosed orally @ 1cc/22lbs.  What you want to look for is actual amount of ivermectin delivered , i.e. 200mcg/kg of body weight = 1cc/110lbs for the injectable.   What is effective is between 500-800 mcg/kg of body weight.  So with the injectable you should dose 1cc/22lbs which gives you about 800mcg/kg of bw...  pour on at 1cc/22lbs is 500mcg/kg of bw..  Here we usually round up to the nearest .5cc  so a goat that weights 50lbs I would dose 3cc with pour on you are probably closer to 600-650 mcg/kg...  with injectable you will be higher than that.  It is ok to slightly overdose ivermec, you would rather overdose than under dose.  under dosing is what causes resistance.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 12, 2011)

@arabianequine Here is a link to what I ordered for worms and yes it contains the 5mg per ml (5ml per 110 lbs) http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=17186&cn=3701

*So if their fecal comes back as having a "clear" worm load, I'll be giving them each 0.5cc IVOMEC orally (they weigh 7, 8, and 10 pounds).
*If their fecal comes back as having a "white" worm load, they'll get 1cc Safeguard
*If their fecal shows now worm load, I don't treat at this time

And as far as the Dimethox 40%, I am going to start preventative treatment for coccidia once it arrives-give them each 2cc on the first day and then 1ccfor another four days ("1cc per 5 lbs the first day, then 1cc per 10 lbs days 2-5k"salvagno)

Yeah, the meds thing is kinda scary with this little does-just don't want to harm them ya know, especially after losing that baby last week.  But, thank goodness for this forum!


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## arabianequine (Jul 12, 2011)

I guess what I am confused on is....5mg per ml the same as 1% ivermectin?


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## elevan (Jul 12, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> I guess what I am confused on is....5mg per ml the same as 1% ivermectin?


IVOMEC 1% Injection is formulated to deliver the recommended dose level of 600 mcg ivermectin/kilogram body weight when given at the rate of 1 mL per 37 lb

IVOMEC 0.5% Pour-On applies at the recommended dose level of 500 mcg/kg when given at a rate is 1 ml for each 22 lb (Contains 5 mg ivermectin/mL)

_eta:  information obtained from Jeffers Livestock website under manufacturers labels (I did adjust the rate for the 1% as it was 300mcg / kg at a rate of 1ml/75#)_


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## arabianequine (Jul 12, 2011)

So if I get this https://www.americanlivestock.com/p-15301-ivermax-ivermectin-pour-on-for-cattle.aspx then it would be the same as this (IVOMEC 0.5% Pour-On applies at the recommended dose level of 500 mcg/kg when given at a rate is 1 ml for each 22 lb (Contains 5 mg ivermectin/mL).


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## elevan (Jul 12, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> So if I get this https://www.americanlivestock.com/p-15301-ivermax-ivermectin-pour-on-for-cattle.aspx then it would be the same as this (IVOMEC 0.5% Pour-On applies at the recommended dose level of 500 mcg/kg when given at a rate is 1 ml for each 22 lb (Contains 5 mg ivermectin/mL).


Looks like it


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