# Ramble on our mistakes with our Pyrs



## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 1, 2013)

This is somewhat rambling. I have made mistakes with my LGD's and have had some wonderful times with them. There have been moments where I wanted nothing more than to get the gun... I hope reading this will encourage people to go to a reputable breeder/trainer and wait/pay for a great LGD.

   I do not know why I never looked in this subject before. I wish I had. I have had many local farmers telling me that we have been treating our LGD's wrong. "They are only supposed to be with the animals not with humans." etc... I did quite a bit of research before we bought our two pyrs and most said the same. However, we chose to first bring the puppies into the house. We house broke them, taught them to sit and wait for permission to eat, and brought them to the goats and chickens with us among other things. I had read about how different they were from "normal" dogs. 

   Our first boy is Smith. We bought him from a goat farm (we have goats). He was very easy going with every animal we had. However, he did not seem to bond too strongly with our goats. When he was about 7 months old we would put him with the goats at night. At this point winter was coming and we felt he would be okay with the cold, we also wanted him to bond with them. However, it was not until he was 9-10 months, last Feb, when one of our does kidded. We brought the kids into the house and bottle fed them. He went from puppy to "LGD" in a day. By the end of the week, when he was outside he was with the goats, when inside he was with the kids. At that point we no longer put him in the pen at night. We no longer had to keep track of him to keep him on our property. Racoon's and MANY skunks began to die, the skunks were a mixed blessing, I hate that smell. He comes in the house sometimes but prefers keeping track of what is outside.

   Our second boy is Wesson. Wesson is 4 months younger than Smith. Here I made a mistake. I was impatient. There was only one breeder who had pyrs for sale within 6 hours of us. He was from registered stock. When I got there it was a kennel. All I could think was puppy mill. It took me about 5 min of sitting in the car thinking "no way!" before I looked up reviews on this breeder. Not one negative review. 15 min later I got out. The place was Very clean. Parents were out with their sheep and I was able to meet them. I bought him and brought him home. He was obviously going to be the dominant dog. He was a huge pain to house break. But he was a very loving and sweet dog. When he was 6 months we alternated putting him in the barn with the goats at night until Feb. I think he was too young to get that kick in the instinct that Smith got with the kids. So we had to continue to keep him in barn or on cable or in house for a while. 

   When comparing the two I think the Wesson might be from show stock. He does not seem to have what Smith has. In April we spent a fortune to remove part of his intestine to give him a 50/50 chance. He survived and started protecting my DD's rabbit. We were soo relieved! Until he fully recovered and started killing chickens..... Yes, he was killing chickens. We were furious for many reasons. However, with the encouragement of a dog training friend, we tried to show him that hurting "our babies" was unacceptable and rude after we spent so much money to save his life lol. Nothing really changed until we got chicks in May. (We were trying to do the same thing that happened with Smith and the kids) We constantly had him in the chick coop with us. We let him smell the chicks while we were holding them, correcting him with ugh-ugh when he was rough. As the chicks grew up we let him in the pen with him, continuing to correct and baby talk to the chicks while hugging them.

   Believe it or not this actually worked. We were able to let him out of the house more. We were not loosing chickens. Smith did not want to leave so Wesson staid as well. Every once in a while we lost a chicken this summer. We watched Wesson as much as we could. In August we found him eating a chicken in the barn. My DH decided to hit him with the corpse. We still do not know if it was Wesson or if the chicken was already dead. Wesson is more of a puppy than Smith, I believe that is why he killed them in the first place. He enjoyed chasing them. With a lot of hard work we have been able to make him understand that such behavior is unacceptable. For a month he was on a cable in the barn. The chickens were all around him but could get away if they needed to and he couldn't follow. Near the end the only time I saw him chase the chickens was when he wanted them away from the food bowl. He never actually touched them but he let them know the food was his. He has always done this with the goats which was fine by me. I did not reprimand him for chasing the chickens from his food, I hope I was right. 

   For the last 2 months both boys roam or nap our 32 acres all day and night. We put the chickens in the chicken coop and the goats in their pen at night. Unfortunately, we are loosing chickens. They are dead in the morning. We think it is a weasel. A few nights ago we started putting Wesson in the chicken coop and Smith with the goats and 2 new piglets. We did not loose any chickens with Wesson in there. Last night I forgot to put him in and we lost another.

   Smith sleeps in the front lawn all day, I hope because of the view, you can see most of our property from where he sleeps. Wesson now sleeps down at the barn or follows the goats around. When either of them barks the goats all appear and race towards them for protection. Unfortunately, when Wesson was still tied in the barn, I looked out the window and saw a coyote sitting in our pasture eyeing our Many happy chickens. Smith was sleeping in front of the house. I called our Dalmatian house pet and Smith and went out there. Smith disappeared halfway there so I let Wesson of the leash and tried to show them where it was. Smith found the trail first but really. I was not happy that the coyote was there at all. That was when we let Wesson of the leash. Luckily he had learned the chickens were not toys by that time. 

Our mistakes:
 1. We bought both without going to a proper LGD breeder/trainer.   
 2. We bought Wesson from a kennel instead of a farm. 
 3. We didn't spend enough time teaching proper behavior around goats and chickens.
 4. We shoved them out with the livestock before they knew proper behavior.
 5. We fed them at the house instead of the barn. This has been corrected.
 6. We made many little mistakes as well that we have corrected, we hope.

   I am sorry for the ramble but I was so glad to read that some here don't think we were Absolutely wrong in letting our LGD's in the house. I was afraid that is why we had other problems. Seems to me that we should have spent more time with them among the livestock. We are all doing well now but I would not object to more advice if you have any. I want to be sure to correct anything else I might be doing wrong. Smith is 1 and half years old and Wesson 1 and a few months. I want to be sure not to mess them up and to continue to train them correctly. I just spent a half hour at the barn watching Smith and Wesson with the new piglets. So cute! The piglets are nervous around us but love the dogs. Smith is just so tolerant he is amazing! Wesson didn't mind them much but kept moving when they started chewing on his dewclaws. lol

   The most important part of my story is that we were successful in teaching Wesson not to kill chickens. I am so grateful that we were able to save him from our stupidity.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 1, 2013)

*GREAT POST!*

*Sounds like you have done an awesome job!*  So glad you did allow your dogs to be part of your family. I get more calls and see much more behavioral issues with the "leave them in the field, and don't mess with them" training method.  That method works ONLY in a specific setting and is not appropriate for the LGD of today, there are many reasons why it is different "today".  It is a ridiculous notion to think that a LGD cannot love and bond with their humans AND their goats (or sheep).

Many who are starting out with their first LGD's or are looking for their first LGD are at a great disadvantage. You have mentioned in your post  some of the issues. When helping others find LGD's in their state and I talk to different "breeders" it is usually nothing but extreme frustration. So called breeders rarely know how to assess a litter. Many start their pups off all wrong. Few do any prenatal care for the bitch, and most have no clue of what to do with pups. Buying a pup off a farm also doesn't assure a great LGD. Most "breeders" push them out the door at 6-8 weeks with no real livestock exposure and NO imprinting from parent stock. That is very important too. 

Individual traits are very important. Picking the right dog and training properly is really the key. Some of the things you mentioned are why so many cannot "trust" their dogs til almost 2yrs. Very sad indeed. Your diligence in working with your dogs looks like it has paid off!

We currently have a pup here for training... he is WONDERFUL... but the "breeder" started the pup out all wrong so at 5 weeks this guy learned to chase, bark at, and bite goats. Shows no submission and has strong prey drive. Sold too young also. The owners are awesome and are diligent and are fully capable of training their lil guy yet he is here for a few weeks to work on specific areas to help him "re-wire" a bit.  Our adult LGD's are with him and teaching him what is and isn't acceptable. This pup has learned to lick instaed of bite, no more biting and shaking head, less running and chasing of goats, will submit to the larger goats and all adult LGD's, and is overalll growing up! He is very smart and will end up being a great dog... with work. Although I talked with the breeder, as usual... _my dogs are all fine and I never have any complaints_. Maybe so, but I think of the ridiculous hardship the new owners go through that they never should have had to. 

Not all new owners are as diligent as you have been. Many dogs end up on CL or a shelter. VERY SAD. Sounds like you didn't make too many mistakes, but did a whole lot right!  

Thanks for sharing your story!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 8, 2013)

My DD wanted me to check and see if Wesson is allowed to chase the goats from his food. He is food protective with the chickens, goats, and Smith but never with us. I am often moving his food if he is too distracted growling at others to eat. He never has issues with us touching his food. However, the goats were getting a bit pushy about trying to get to his food. He kept growling at them and chasing them away. This is the only time he does this. I have been watching him the past few days very closely. He lays out wherever the goats are. He follows them or they follow him. 

Is it okay for him to protect his food from the goats?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 8, 2013)

Because he is not showing food aggression toward humans I think it is acceptable. Of course there are parameters. 
There are different thoughts on the subject of course but I can say having a LGD that will give a warning has it's advantages. Goats for some reason LOVE dogfood and it is not good for them. Our 3 pyrs were trained to have NO food aggression whatsoever, our Anatolian (who is co-owned) was not worked with in the same way.  She (anatolian) is not human food aggressive but is dog and goat food aggressive. I find it completely ridiculous. This is where those parameters come in.... The anatolian will not eat her food right away and sometimes skip a day, meanwhile if any animal even walks by her bucket, and we are talking 5ft within that range she runs to protect her food to the point of obsession. She will not hurt or bite the goats ever but is stupid crazy over it. Lots of noise,snarls etc., she will go after another dog though. BUT the goats and other dogs will not touch her food. On the flip side the pyrs will just move out of the way if the goats want their food, which means separating them out for feeding.  This is a real PITrear!
To prevent Wesson from spending all day guarding his food, put the food out in the am/pm or however often you feed for about 20-30 minutes only and remove it. *He certainly has the right to eat his food unmolested by goats.  If he is biting the goats then it is just best to feed him separate, and work with him when you can fully supervise. That would NOT be acceptable behavior ever. Snarling , turning, growling is within the acceptable boundaries.*
BTW- When we mix the raw meat in the goats won't go near the food.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 12, 2013)

I will watch him then and not worry as longs as he does not bite. Thanks for your advice!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 17, 2013)

So, I messed up Again!  

I gave some bread to the piglets to eat, of course the chickens were right there as well. Anyway, Smith (the older good one) goes in, very gently grabs a piece, I saw him and shut the gate so he was in the pen. BTW, the piglets are in the barn, there is a 1.5' footer then the gate. We leave the gate open so the other animals can come in and out but the piglets are still too small. Anyway, I shut the gate and he started giving me that "Awww, please mom!" look, even whimpered pathetically, it was very cute. I was unsure of whether I should take the bread from him or not (This was the first part of my mistake) so I just watched him thinking he was adorable and thinking how awesome he is etc. for about 3-4 min. Then the piglets came toward him, they always climb all over him and snuggle and he lays down so they can. 

Well, not this time. This time he dropped the bread and bit at one of the piglets! This is the non-food agressive dog by the way. He always lets the goats, chickens, or other dogs eat his food. If another animal comes toward it he just leaves... I was so confused. Of course, I was in there imediately and had him on his back. He struggled a little then stopped but I did not feel like he was being submissive so I held him for a bit. The piglets came toward him again and he snapped again. This happened a few times along with growling at them. When he growled I shaked him some and told him no. In all I probably spent 10 min or so on top of him until I felt that he accepted it. When I let him up he got up and licked me and walked out, right past the bread and piglets...

So what happened here?! Smith and Wesson both always drop on their backs when they do something wrong. This whole thing was so weird! Obviously I should have either let him have the bread or taken it from him and not let him have it but I never expected the rest. If I were not strong and good with combat training I could have had an issue holding him down, he is a big tank. Smith drops on his back when he feels us pulling him towards it, Wesson drops as soon as he realizes/thinks he did something wrong (honestly, some times its hard to get him to stand up!) we do not even have to grab him, just look. 

Q 1) Should I have let him have the bread or not?
Q 2) What the heck?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2013)

You won that battle! That is good.
I don't think it was a mess-up at all, it took you off guard and by surprise. It happens.
Now here is the bigger question... what is your desired end goal?
Ultimately anything you do must be toward that goal and it must be absolutely consistent.

Don't think these are silly questions but a) when was the last time the dogs were de-wormed  b) have you been increasing food intake with higher protein/fat for the winter  c) are your dogs hungrier right now and acting in an unusual way?

Now a very possible dumb question... I know NOTHING,NOTTA,ZILCH about pigs... are they smart enough to understand to back off of a growling snarling dog? or are they oblivious?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 18, 2013)

I don't know enough about pigs to be able to answer that question. They ran when he snapped at them but kept coming back... So I am leaning towards oblivious. They did not run when he growled when I had him down.

I have never de-wormed them but I have been giving them more food because they have been acting hungrier than normal. Is this something I should be doing for the winter? Giving them extra food? Smith being hungry was the only thing I could think of but he gets 4 large coffee cups of dog food morning and night. I will increase this now if you think I should. During the summer he would not eat more than 3 but he has been eating all 4 this past month.

Wesson can not get into a car to get to a vet but Smith can. Would I have to take them in order to worm them? If not, what wormer can I use?

ETA: The vet did de-worm them, however, they have not been to the vet in about a year.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 18, 2013)

Oops, forgot the big question. 
My end goal is for both Smith and Wesson to protect our animals. I guess the reason I hesitated is because I was not sure which action was right in pursuing that goal. Smith taking something from the piglets is not something he has ever done to any of the other "babies" we have had here. He is always the surogate mother, calm and tolerant. My youngest rides him around, the goat kids always cuddle with him and jump all over him, the baby rabbits went straight to him for a warm nap as did the chicks, and the piglets climb on him and nuzzle him as well as chewing on his dewclaws etc. He is so tolerant of everything he must have been pretty hungry to snap at the piglets which means I need to figure out why he is so hungry soon.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 18, 2013)

Yes, they should be de-wormed. 
One you can run your own fecal or *you can take a sample to your vet. *Two you can de-worm your dogs yourself. There are deworming products at Walmart, Petsmart etc. We just get ours from Southern States or Tractor Supply. Our choice of dewormer is fenbendazole 10% (Also known as Panacur or Safeguard).  We get the big tubes of paste as we have alot of dogs. We run our  own fecals here. 

Feed intake increases in the cooler months and picks up greatly the colder it gets. They need the energy to pack on pounds for the cold as well as the predator issues increase and they are on high alert and much more active in the colder months. 

Also recheck their vac dates- make sure they are up to date on Distemper and *RABIES*!

When we do our yearly farm call all the dogs are seen at the same time. Our vet also lives next door.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 18, 2013)

How much of the safe guard? I just went and bought some. (I had Valbazen and ivermec but no more fenben). I also picked up the co-op's highest protein dog food and feed them both with half that and half regular. They both scarfed it even though it was more than the approx. 8 cups. I also trimmed Wesson's nails and gave him a nice brush.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 18, 2013)

Wesson was very happy to get the pedi and brush. He doesn't know that he is napping in the house until I find out how much wormer to give him. lol. Smith is next when he ambles up here. 





 

BTW, My floor was clean before the "cleaning" LOL


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## Southern by choice (Nov 18, 2013)

YAY! for good grooming! I would increase his feed yes but be careful with adding another feed and increasing as you may end up with tummy issues, diarrhea being one... too high in protein will also cause loose stool to diarrhea. 
As far as dewormer... you should ask your vet for the dosages and really get that fecal done. Fenbendazole is a pretty broad spectrum dewormer with a wide range margin of safety.
*This is the schedule we follow, HOWEVER... ALL our dogs are vet monitored and we follow our vets protocol. It is against the law to use any product off label without the direct recommendation/supervision of a licensed veterinarian*. If it is labeled for dogs follow the dosage recommendations/protocol on the bottle/tube.

http://www.msd-animal-health.co.uk/products_public/panacur_10__liquid/090_product_datasheet.aspx

I could just smooch on that face! Awwwwwwwwwww!  What a good boy for his grooming! Now- give him a deer leg for his teeth cleaning and he'll be good to go! LOL


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## dejavoodoo114 (Nov 18, 2013)

At this point I wish I had a deer so much I might not share the leg! lol!

I will keep an eye on the other things. Thanks!


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## goatboy1973 (Nov 18, 2013)

Good lookin' LGD!


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## Goatlover200 (Nov 27, 2013)

cool!!! i love 'em! great pyneers are my favorite!


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## makingshift (Nov 30, 2013)

Thank you for such an informative post, dejavoodoo! You have some beautiful dogs there. Best of luck and thanks for sharing your mistakes and successes!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Dec 5, 2013)

mikingshift, I am just hoping others will read this and learn from it. 

On another note, I have since had two deer dropped off at my house. Smith and Wesson are in heaven!


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## Latestarter (Oct 21, 2015)

@dejavoodoo114 ; It's been almost 2 years since the last/end post. I'm posting because the pictures showed up at the top of the site home page, which brought me to your thread. Your boys are beautiful! Thanks for sharing your story. How are they doing now that they have a few years experience? Love the names and wondered if perhaps you have added a Ruger or Colt... maybe a Marlin? With 32 acres, you have enough room for more dogs as well as animals <---I'm an enabler, yes... Anyway, thanks again for sharing. Always nice to hear of others experiences as I learn better that way.


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