# More scour issues in littlest guy. Scours and Sloshy.  *MONDAY UPDATE*



## Our7Wonders (Jul 2, 2011)

I've finished my cocci treatment round in the older kids - and they've been on specto-guard as well - I think we're on day 4 of that.  Pooping slowed down but I suppose that's to be expected since they've been on a cocci med, a wormer, AND an antibiotic.  I've been giving 5cc of milk of magnesia twice a day just to keep things moving.  The three older ones seem to be passing pellets again now.

The littlest guy was only 10 days old when we brought him home - so 17 days today.  He was the one with the worst scouring - mustard yellow, slimey, frothy/foamy.  Could have been dietary due to the milk change when he moved but it wasn't slowing down after two days so I took action.  He started specto guard and after two or three doses of that he stopped scouring.  I did NOT treat him with the cocci meds (DiMethox/Safeguard) like the others since he was so much younger - still not 3 weeks old yet.  Although he's been getting Milk of Magnesia twice daily I hadn't actually seen him poop so last night I gave him a warm soapy water enema.  Oh my goodness, the poor little guy!  He was squatting like a dog and crying as he strained to go.  After SEVERAL enemas he finally passed a large yellow mass of poo.  I'm sure it was a relief.  It was all still mustard yellow though.  I gave him another enema today just to make sure he's not backing up.  It's very yellow and is runny frothy again - though, some of the "runniness" could be due to the fact that I was squirting diswater up his bottom.

It concerns me that it's still yellow - color hasn't improved at all.  He refused a bottle or two when he was really scouring but has not refused one since and hasn't been sloshy at all - poor guy, I pick him up and shake him before each bottle just to make sure he's digesting all of his previous bottle.  

He had just goat milk at his former farm and then just goat milk here.  He's been getting (3) 8 ounce bottles each day - I haven't increased his beyond that just because he's not pooing yet.  Is it really likely that he'd still be having issues with the milk?  The other three obs that I bought are doing well now on the same milk.  I'm not opposed to gradually switching him to whole milk if it's advised - but I'm afraid to change anything at this point.  

Bacterial?  If so it's obviously something that needs a stronger antibiotic - or maybe just longer on the scour halt?  At 17 days he's still too young to start dimethox, right?  

He is not missing a beat when it comes to eating and he's playing, running and bouncing at every opportunity.  He tires easily when I let him out to run around outside - but it's pushing 90*.  I tire easily outside too. 

You guys have been great with the advice - I hate to keep bothering you all.  Without a goat vet nearby you have been such a huge blessing to me (and my goats!)


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## helmstead (Jul 2, 2011)

Yellow = milk poop.  When he starts eating something solid regularly, it'll turn green/brown to regular brown.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 2, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I pick him up and shake him before each bottle


I know you have been having a hard time and are really trying to get these guys healthy but I had to laugh at this. I pictured you shaking him like you would a piggy bank with money it. 

I hope they all get better for you in no time.


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## Roll farms (Jul 2, 2011)

Yup, yellow's normal.  As long as the poop is solid / he's eating  ok and eyes are not pale, I think you're doing fine.  

Don't give him shaken baby syndrome!


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## elevan (Jul 2, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Our7Wonders said:
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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Yup, yellow's normal.  *As long as the poop is solid* / he's eating  ok and eyes are not pale, I think you're doing fine.


That's just it - the poop isn't solid.  He was constipated - but after the enema he began scouring again.  It's been 24 hours now since the enema and it's mustard color *AND* consistency.  And I'm glad I shake the poor little thing each time because last night before his last bottle he was sloshy.  Instead of his bottle he got oil and baking soda - he wasn't much pleased with that. 

This a.m. he got another dose of oil and baking soda and about 8 ounces of electrolytes.  

So still runny poo (not completely watery -  but mustard like).  And now sloshy belly.  

How long do you give baking soda for and how long do you with-hold the bottle for when they've been sloshy?  When I do start his bottle again do I start with a couple ounces and build each bottle up from there? Should I stick with goat milk in his bottle or should I work him towards cow milk since his poo isn't firming up?  And in light of his runny poo do you suggest I continue the scour-halt or try something different?  My plan was to start him on dimetox in another three days, when he's three weeks old, should I still plan on doing so even though he has the other issues?

I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again:  goat babies are WAY more work than human babies!

eta: if it matters, he still has a hearty appetite - he tries to push the others off their bottle so he can have them - and he slurps his electrolyte water mix out of the bowl without me having to coax him at all.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 3, 2011)

Isn't Scour Halt Neomycin?  If I suspected something bacterial and Neomycin didn't clear it up within 24-48 hours at most I'd start giving SMZ-TMP.  My goat vet has said that Neomycin is ineffective against everything except e coli.  That said, if I had on/off scouring and a sloshy belly in a kid that age I'd most likely be throwing the kitchen sink at him, so take that with a grain of salt and I'll defer to those with more experience with scouring kids.


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## Roll farms (Jul 3, 2011)

Unfortunately, we don't get many scouring kids so I'm not much help, and when we do, scour halt has always fixed it in itty bitties / di methox in older kids....BUT, I have to (gut instinct) agree w/ Nikki, I'd switch him to SMZ-TMP (our vet suggests 1 per 75#).  Cut it to whatever size he'd need, dissolve it in a bit of water, and squirt it down his throat...preferably on an empty stomach...don't let him eat / drink anything for a little while afterward, so the medicine will have time to hit his system.  The reason I'd switch is - it will also 'kill' cocci and at this point we're not sure what the little dude's problem is.  Give it for 5 days, just like di methox.

Also, I really, really like this gelling electrolyte TSC carries called Revitalyte.  It helps firm up their poo and hydrates them.  Honestly, I've never had to give more than a bottle or two of that before they've firmed back up.

Never had a problem w/ kids getting constipated, either...and we've fed a lot of cows milk over the years.

It boggles me that you're having all these problems w/ just a handful of kids and I sure hope it smooths out for you soon!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 3, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, we don't get many scouring kids so I'm not much help
> 
> It boggles me that you're having all these problems w/ just a handful of kids and I sure hope it smooths out for you soon!


x 2

I would suspect that whatever it is it's something they have in common, whether it's bacterial or protozoal... It seems unlikely that you'd have concurrent illnesses that weren't related.  Forgive me for not knowing this, but was a fecal done confirming coccidiosis in the older kids?  If not, perhaps it was something bacterial going around.

After almost losing our yearling buck we won't hesitate to go for the SMZ if the fecal comes back clean.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 3, 2011)

O7W, are you expecting the poo to be solid as in pellets?  Because my young kids always have yellow pudding-like poo.  It's solid enough to not puddle, but not at all solid like an adult goat's poo.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> O7W, are you expecting the poo to be solid as in pellets?  Because my young kids always have yellow pudding-like poo.  It's solid enough to not puddle, but not at all solid like an adult goat's poo.


He was drippy and puddling, though as the day has gone on it's becoming a little more pudding like.  He hasn't had any food though, so if the milk is causing the runs then it would make sense that the runs are decreasing.  The sloshy belly really concerns me though.  He had his afternoon bottle yesterday but that was the last one.  It's been over 24 hours since his last bottle and you can still hear liquid in his belly.  Otherwise he seems energetic and happy.  Twice today I've offered a bowl of 8 ounces of water along with electrolyte powder and he's drank them up each time.  I listen to his belly BEFORE giving the electrolytes - sloshy every time.  If it were just the poo alone I might not be as concerned.

Once his belly no longer sounds sloshy is that when I start him on a couple ounces of milk?  It worries me that he's gone so long without any.  He definately wants his bottle - and he's been bumping my legs looking for food.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 3, 2011)

The sloshy belly would concern me... sorry if you've been through this already in the other thread, but have you given him c/d&t antitoxin?  If there's milk sitting undigested in his belly it could set him up for entero/acidosis.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

I haven't been able to give the antitoxin - it isn't available anywhere.  I tried to have it rush shipped earlier this week when I was having issues with the doeling but everyone was out of stock.  I've been treating her instead with an alternative treatment for entero and will be starting him on it as well tonight.  Good news is she's doing great.  While she doesn't seem 100% yet her legs seem to be working better - she no longer stands stiff legged - she's able to manage a squat when she goes potty now - and gives a little skip and a hop when she's running.

As for this little guy, the pudding poo is no longer pudding poo.  It's like he's peeing out his butt now.  He's only had water and electrolytes for the past 24 hours so I suppose there isn't anything in him to cause firm stools.  He's still active and seems hungry.  I'm worried he's going to go down hill quickly though.  I've given baking soda, veg. oil, and electrolytes several times today.  He's still getting the specto-guard and I've given him 3cc of vitamin B.  He sips water from a bowl as well.  He'll get all the above again this evening along with the slippery elm bark entero mix.  He's now in the kennel in my living room.  I no sooner got the other goat out of here and now there's another one in here!

I'd I'd only known how much work these babies were going to be!    It doesn't help that we have a mild, yet annoying tummy bug making it's way through our family as well.


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## helmstead (Jul 3, 2011)

Bicarb can cause scouring...dunno about the slippery elm.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Bicarb can cause scouring...dunno about the slippery elm.


that's good to know - maybe I'm actually causing the scours while working on his belly.  Figures. I need to continue the bicarb for his belly, right?  Good grief - I really don't know how you guys do so many babies each year!

He hasn't had the slippery elm yet, though it's indicated in herbal medicine for scouring, so I doubt it would cause it.  

I'm less concerned about the runs than I am the sloshy tummy.  He's drinking both electrolytes and water willingly, so he's staying hydrated and he's peeing plenty - at least hourly.  I guess at this point I'll keep up the bicarb for the sloshy belly and hope it resolves soon.  Then perhaps when the bicarb is stopped the runs will too.


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## Roll farms (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't *know* this, but this is just going on what I 'know' (ha ha...do we ever know anything) from dealing w/ goats...but there's nothing in there but liquids, seems to me he's GOING to slosh until he gets something inside that will form solid.  I'd quit w/ the baking soda *until / unless* he's back on milk and THEN gets sloshy.

I would really, truly, seriously consider getting some revitalyte gelling mix (I mix 1T to 1oz water) and give him that for 3 bottles...Get him on SMZ / TMP....then put that boy back on milk...it's what nature intended.

All this other stuff isn't 'normal' for a kid to have...milk is...granted, you have to stop milk until he stops scouring...but I've never given a kid anything like the mix you're using.

If the SMZ TMP doesn't fix it, nothing will....best of luck w/ him.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 4, 2011)

reading through the entire post, I think that you have done just about everything that you can do. I would keep him on electrolytes for a total of 48 hours, then start him back on the goat milk with about 3 ml of vegetable oil added to each bottle. Or add about a table spoon of plain yogurt, but not the fat free type if you can help it.  Sometimes with kids I wish they had a reset button....


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## NDgal (Jul 5, 2011)

Why is he given veg. oil?  I'd cut that out. And is he still on MOM? I'd cut that too. Kids are sensitive at this age and his system needs time to recover.  If he's acting and playing well that's a good sign.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't even take mine off of milk.   Take that for what it is worth.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 5, 2011)

So here's another update.

Little guy is still in my living room.  I think he's ready to be with the goats and I'm ready for him to be with the goats but I've not seen a normal poo yet and so in my living room he stays.

The specto-gaurd (scour-halt) was stopped.  He's had a 6 day course and I figure it had done all it was capable of doing.  His tummy was still quite sloshy, despite not eating for 36 hours.  He'd been so long without food so I gave him a bottle.  I've read over and over to never give a baby with a sloshy tummy a bottle - but right or wrong he got it. 

I don't want anyone to think I was randomly just throwing things at this kid without careful consideration.  He was scouring yellow frothy poo.  Yellow poo can be dietary.  Yellow squirts can also be bacterial.  I didn't want to run a risk and lose hime quickly and without the help of a good goat vet it seemed prudent to start scour halt just in case it was bacterial.  Scours stopped.  He continued eating and seemed frisky.  Then I noticed he wasn't pooping.  It had been at least 24 hours since I saw him poop.  Hence the Milk of Magnesia.  Still no poop.  So the enema.  It took alot of warm soapy water but he finally, with great effort, passed a mass of yellow poo.  Then he started scouring again.  At around the same time, or shortly thereafter (it's all a blur now, I should have kept notes) he started sounding sloshy even 8 hours after his previous bottle - so I skipped his evening bottle.  Even going all night long without a bottle he still sounded sloshy the next day.  Based on the warnings to never feed a sloshy baby I stopped his bottles.  It's also been said sloshy baby = bloated baby.  So that's the reason for the oil and the baking soda.  Because of the questions in the above posts I just want to be clear that there was, at least what seemed to me based on many, many posts in the archives from this board, to be good reasons for the course of treatment I tried.  

Now, I've also seen it stated several times on here as well as on other websites that entero can set in quickly in an already compromised baby.  For that reason the herbal conncoction.  Which wasn't something I just threw together - slippery elm bark is known for treating gastrointestinal issues and was specifically mentioned for entero in a natural goat care book as well as for other tummy issues in two other resources.  It was specifcally for entero that I was using it - and I figured it's a bonus that it can regulate bowel movements as well (helps with constipation AND helps with scours).

He also had B shots and probios daily for supportive care.


Just clearing up the record. 

As for little guy:  I started him on a 4 ounce bottle Monday afternoon.  8 hours later, despite still hearing the liquid in his belly I gave him another 4 ounces.  If he'd have been bigger than me I really think he'd have knocked me down and beat me for more.  He had one more herbal dose yesterday.  I've increased him to a 6 ounce bottle today.  He had one this a.m.  by noon time when I took him outside to run around he FINALLY seemed less sloshy - could only hear it a little.  So I'll gradually increase ounces in each of his bottles until he's back to normal.  

Here's the thing though, he's not pooping yet.  Now I realize he didn't eat anything for quite some time so it may take a while to get him going again but until I see at least semi-formed poo I'm going to consider him still at risk.  I take him out several times each day to run and play with the other little ones - and he seems to be doing well.  We just need to get him pooping again.  I haven't given him anything for it  yet (like M.O.M.) because I don't want to start another cycle.  

Under these circumstances at what point should I be concerned that I'm not seeing him poop?  Do you think it's ok to let him ride out today before taking any kind of action?  I'll likey give him an enema again before I try any other treatment simply because I don't want to mess with his gut any more than I already have.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 5, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Under these circumstances at what point should I be concerned that I'm not seeing him poop?  Do you think it's ok to let him ride out today before taking any kind of action?  I'll likey give him an enema again before I try any other treatment simply because I don't want to mess with his gut any more than I already have.


Well, I don't normally pay close attention to when/how many times a kid poops just because they're normally out in a pen and I don't stay out there for extended lengths of time (if the kid was in my house I would notice. LOL).  I normally only worry about constipation if a kid refuses a bottle (which is odd, so I know something might be up).  And I agree w/ trying an enema before any more feed-through treatments.


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## NDgal (Jul 5, 2011)

How long has it been since you've since a BM? If this guy practically emptied out his bowels I wouldn't think it would be unusual to see no poop for awhile. He's been through a lot - and no I don't blame you for the treatments, but I might just see how it goes with just the milk now. You might try what mom does - taking a warm wet cloth and rubbing his rear end.


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## Roll farms (Jul 5, 2011)

I'd give him til tomorrow night to poop (as long as he's acting normal) and then give the enema.  If he refuses a bottle / acts 'off' do the enema sooner.

Glad he's improving!


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