# Weaning my 'dolls' Q. Help please!



## secuono (Feb 8, 2012)

I have a potential buyer for 2 lambs and I don't even know what they will have! Yay!
Anyway, at 8 weeks, I've read they could be weaned. 
I'm wondering; 
when I should start the process?
How should I? Do I really need to creep feed? I rather just have them out with mom on the grass.
In that grass state, how would I try and dry mom up?
I've read about the Australian nose weaners and emailed them. If I can get them, I'll use them 1-2 weeks before they are 8wks old. Or would that be too soon?
Anything else I should do?
If I have a 3rd or 4th lamb, if the ewes have twins, then I would leave them with mom to wean naturally at 6mo. Would that signifigantly complicate things if they are from separate moms?


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## SmallFarmGirl (Feb 8, 2012)

If sheep are like goats I can A your Q!!!!


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 8, 2012)

You can wean them at 8 weeks. If you don't want to separate them, they won't wean.  I mean, yeah, *maybe* by 6 months they'll self wean, but they may also drag the ewe down until she's in poor condition.  Can you fence them separately at all?  Another thought is to just sell them at 8 weeks, and voila, they're weaned.  I've never used the nose thing, but if you do, do it at 8 weeks and not before.  You don't have to do creep feed unless you want to.  And I don't think I understand your last question.  What do you mean about the separate mom thing?


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## SheepGirl (Feb 8, 2012)

secuono said:
			
		

> I have a potential buyer for 2 lambs and I don't even know what they will have! Yay!
> Anyway, at 8 weeks, I've read they could be weaned.
> I'm wondering;
> when I should start the process?
> ...


Congrats on having a buyer for your lambs! 

We wean at 60 days, which is roughly 8 weeks.

What we do is move the lambs into the ram pasture. Sometimes we will move the ewes into the ram pasture and then the rams are moved into a pen in the barn. However, after two to three weeks, we put the ewes and lambs back together and the lambs attempt to nurse for the first day or two, but their moms won't have it so they give up and continue eating grass and grain. 

As for creep feeding, the main reason why people do this is to have faster growing lambs and (if they are a wool breed) to have better quality wool. Better nutrition = better wool. If you want to leave them just out on pasture, that's fine.

By the time the lamb is 60ish days old, the ewe is still milking, but not as much as one month prior. We've never had any problems with mastitis. We find weaning them "cold turkey" is better for both the ewe and lamb, rather than weaning them gradually.

I've never used nose weaners and I don't know of anyone who's used them, either. So I don't know anything about them.

If your ewes both have twins, I would wean both lambs at the same time. And I wouldn't sell the lambs right off the mom (unless they're to be slaughtered directly after the sale for milk-fed or hot-house lamb). They already have the stress of not having mom around plus going to a new home? I think that's a bit much on a lamb. I would wait until they are three or four months old, so you can see if they're growing good without their mom to guide them.

And don't forget vaccinating them and worming them before you sell them


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## Beekissed (Feb 8, 2012)

I didn't wean my lamb and the ewe weaned him all on her own at around 3-4 mo.   She didn't lose condition and he benefited from the extra rich milk, though he was only getting it in snatches after the first couple of months.  This is mom and ram lamb at around 4 mo.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 9, 2012)

It's not ideal maybe, to sell the lambs right at weaning, but if she doesn't have anywhere else to house them it may have to do. 

And we didn't know any better with our first lambs, and thought they'd self wean (twins) and they dragged the ewe down because both of them kept trying to nurse. Self weaning does not always work, and if you're looking to be more efficient (with money and feeding) it's not efficient to keep the lambs on the ewes (if you're having to supplement feed the ewe).  If you have more pasture than you know what to do with, it may not matter as much.


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## secuono (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm only feeding the ewes pellets until they lamb, there will be plenty of grass when little ones are here. I don't feed them otherwise. 
The sale also depends on whether or not there are any rams to sell, if they are all girls, I'm keeping them and will let the moms wean them.


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## Beekissed (Feb 9, 2012)

I wouldn't keep a ewe that lost condition over feeding her own young...and I don't supplement except for a few days before the birth and a few days after, if that.  Any sheep that can't even sustain her own young is a cull in any flock of mine.  I would want hardy, thrifty sheep and the offspring produced by those ewes.

I know that sounds like a way to lose money in the short term but I see it as a long term solution to a self-sustaining flock that can produce and thrive on very little intervention from me.  After putting in the time and years of selective culling and breeding, a person should be able to have a flock that is less expensive in the long run.   

Sheep's milk has been the optimal food since time began for seeing that young lambs are healthy and have good growth, weaning them off prematurely and then replacing that milk with grains seems like going against all things healthy for a sheep.  

Grains are not optimal nutrition for ruminants...oh, it may get an animal fat in a shorter amount of time, and if all you are concerned about it getting an animal to market and gaining a quick profit, then it seems a good solution.   But...grass is free and a little more time on the ewe and a little more time on pasture can produce a market size lamb also.  

No wonder we have flocks that are so susceptible to parasites and diseases~the sheep that don't thrive naturally are being allowed to live and produce more of their ilk.  Means more money spent, more time spent, more worry in the long run.


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## secuono (Feb 9, 2012)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I wouldn't keep a ewe that lost condition over feeding her own young...and I don't supplement except for a few days before the birth and a few days after, if that.  Any sheep that can't even sustain her own young is a cull in any flock of mine.  I would want hardy, thrifty sheep and the offspring produced by those ewes.
> 
> I know that sounds like a way to lose money in the short term but I see it as a long term solution to a self-sustaining flock that can produce and thrive on very little intervention from me.  After putting in the time and years of selective culling and breeding, a person should be able to have a flock that is less expensive in the long run.
> 
> ...


I'm only adding pellets because all the sheep sites said to do so. They surly do not need it, the fat boogers, but if it helps, why not. I'm only using one bag and then they are on their own again. They just won't eat hay, too much grass they are somehow finding.


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## Beekissed (Feb 9, 2012)

That post wasn't directed at you, Secuono, nor anyone on this forum but merely towards the prevalent methods of raising stock in America today. 

 I see the current and most accepted methods to be the downfall of many breeds that used to be hardy and come from more hardy ancestors.  With the change in agriculture standards, the desire to get stock grown and on their way to the market has taken over older animal husbandry practices that encouraged the natural hardiness and thriftiness of the flock instead of favoring animals that~with the aid of supplemental grains and medicine~ merely turned a profit as quickly as possible.


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## secuono (Feb 9, 2012)

Sorry, my fat cat keeps kneading my stomach and biting me for attention, its a bit distracting. 


I think a lot of people add feed when they have more sheep than their land can support all year long. No? But I much rather not feed mine, I'll see how it goes. They are on the older side and this bag won't last another month.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 10, 2012)

I'll give my personal opinion on feeding grain.  I feed grain to my pregnant (last month of gestation) and lactating ewes because I want to do everything I can to ensure they have enough energy and protein to support growing lambs.  Lactating is the single most demanding thing an animal can do.  Lactating ewes need more nutrition than growing animals, and more than pregnant animals.  Their diet (here) is supplemented with alfalfa for protein, but I supplement grain to increase energy.  IMO, if I need to add some grain to their diet to ensure multiple lambs that grow well, I'll do it.  If I need to supplement a little grain at flushing time to produce multiple lambs, I'll do it.  I don't want to chance a ewe only having a single lamb, because that's a waste.  I want animals that pull their weight, and a ewe who has a single lamb isn't doing that.  I would not keep a ewe who had a single lamb after her first year of lambing.  I even expect first time lambers to have twins, and I've only had one ewe who didn't have twins her first time lambing.  If I have to provide grain for ewes who are lactating and feeding multiple lambs, I'll do it.  The majority of my animals' diet is forage, and I don't go crazy and do like club lamb feeders do and only provide the bare minimum hay to keep the rumen functioning, because I don't agree with that.   If you're responsible with your feeding, the animal isn't compromised because of grain.  

I personally don't have the acreage needed to provide all the feed for my sheep.  Therefore I need to supply additional feed for them.  Sheep have high energy demands when lactating, and energy is often the hardest to meet.  It's great to select for ewes who can maintain body condition while feeding lambs, and selecting for ewes who don't need grain thrown at them every day to maintain condition.  That being said, it's up to me to provide proper management to help the ewes reach their fullest potential.  If my ewes can get by with no grain, that's great, but it's even better if they provide good quality wool, and multiple lambs who are fast growing. My goal isn't to turn a profit as quickly as possible, but if someone wants to be sustainable they need to think about profits.  You can't maintain something that doesn't give you back your investment plus some.  

Now, I will say I have a bred Southdown ewe who's due at the end of the month who has gotten fat off of hay.  I have not given her any grain and I may not give grain until a week or due before she's due, but I will give her grain when she lambs so I know she's getting her energy requirements met.


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## boothcreek (Feb 10, 2012)

at 8 weeks I see my lambs actively eat hay and the grain I feed to put them in their night pen, so I know they know how to feed themselfs on things other then mothers milk and are not dependant on it anymore.  So when I sell my lambs I generally go by 9 weeks old people can pick them up and their pick-up is their weaning. My Ewes aren't even upset for more then 2-3 hrs, and the lambs stop calling for mom after a day according to the people I sold to.


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## SheepGirl (Feb 10, 2012)

I will add in my thoughts on the subject, as well.

In my opinion, losing condition while feeding her lambs is a _good_ thing. It means that the ewe is willing to sacrifice herself for her lambs. And then she is required to gain back all of her lost weight before the next breeding season on grass alone. Personally, I think those characteristics make up a good ewe. A profitable flock, for me, at least, is a ewe that can survive--and thrive--on the nutritionally balanced ration _I_ provide her with. Personally, what makes a cull for me is a ewe that can't/doesn't want to raise her lambs, has a bad udder, can't survive at least four breeding seasons, inability to produce twins every single time, etc. A person should cull their sheep to fit _their_ operation and _their_ goals. Who cares what other people want in a flock of sheep. Ultimately, you are breeding to sell market animals. As long as your lambs have quality carcasses as their end product, don't worry about trying to fit into what other people want. Because other people's wants in a sheep are different than what you may need in a sheep.

Sheep's milk _is_ an optimal feed for lambs...for the first two or three months. After that, it becomes inefficient for a ewe to need to eat more feed to produce milk to feed her lambs that are already primarily sustaining themselves on pasture and supplemental feed (if provided). To me, it is a waste of resources to continue to feed a ewe for lactation longer than 2-3 months. Those same feed sources can be used more efficiently by going straight to the lamb, be it pasture or grain.

Grain is a term for the seed or fruit of a grass or legume, respectively. My sheep will regularly eat the seeds (grains) from the grass in the pasture every June. It helps get the ewes that have weaned their lambs back into condition so they can maintain their condition over summer when the grass is at it's low-nutrition point, much like in winter. When September/October come around, the pasture gets green again and the ewes are able to continue to gain weight to prepare their bodies for the breeding season. Personally, I see no difference in feeding harvested grains, such as corn, soybeans, oats, etc to my sheep than them eating the seed straight from the pasture. I think feeding grain to livestock is important; for example, there isn't enough room in a heavily bred ewe to meet her needs with just roughage. You can take up less space by feeding her a ration consisting of roughage and concentrates.

My sheep are on a grain-supplemented ration during late gestation and lactation--just like any commercially-managed flock. However, we rarely have to deworm them. We only check for internal parasites once per year...and usually 80-90% of the flock does not need to be dewormed. We also vaccinate for CD/T. We don't have any health problems, either (knock on wood). My neighbor's philosophy--who has been breeding & raising sheep for over 70 years--is survival of the fittest. Sheep that do need to be dewormed are, but then they're are sent to auction after they wean their lambs. Sheep that need to be dewormed between yearly checks aren't--if they die, they die. It sounds harsh, but that's how you produce a parasite-tolerant line. Honestly, we have not dewormed anybody in the past three years. We have also not lost a sheep to any health problem in four years (excluding the two that died during shearing and three lambs in 2010 to a suspected selenium deficiency).


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## Cornish Heritage (Feb 13, 2012)

> Sheep that do need to be dewormed are, but then they're are sent to auction after they wean their lambs. Sheep that need to be dewormed between yearly checks aren't--if they die, they die. It sounds harsh, but that's how you produce a parasite-tolerant line. Honestly, we have not dewormed anybody in the past three years. We have also not lost a sheep to any health problem in four years (excluding the two that died during shearing and three lambs in 2010 to a suspected selenium deficiency).


This is good advice & how we hope to be. St. Croixs are naturally more parasite resistant anyways but our aim here is to not to worm our herd. We are new to sheep & have a lot to learn but breeding for health & hardiness is one of our main aims. Of course conformation etc is also important when dealing with registered stock. 

Thanks for your input.

Liz


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## Beekissed (Feb 14, 2012)

SG, I wish more stock men held with that philosophy...might be much hardier flocks out there than there are today.  I don't find it harsh, I find it to be more sustainable in the long run.  I bet if you told someone in my area that you haven't wormed in three years they would call you a liar....


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## SheepGirl (Feb 15, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> > Sheep that do need to be dewormed are, but then they're are sent to auction after they wean their lambs. Sheep that need to be dewormed between yearly checks aren't--if they die, they die. It sounds harsh, but that's how you produce a parasite-tolerant line. Honestly, we have not dewormed anybody in the past three years. We have also not lost a sheep to any health problem in four years (excluding the two that died during shearing and three lambs in 2010 to a suspected selenium deficiency).
> 
> 
> This is good advice & how we hope to be. St. Croixs are naturally more parasite resistant anyways but our aim here is to not to worm our herd. We are new to sheep & have a lot to learn but breeding for health & hardiness is one of our main aims. Of course conformation etc is also important when dealing with registered stock.
> ...


No problem. I'm glad you will be able to benefit from it 



			
				Beekissed said:
			
		

> SG, I wish more stock men held with that philosophy...might be much hardier flocks out there than there are today.  I don't find it harsh, I find it to be more sustainable in the long run.  I bet if you told someone in my area that you haven't wormed in three years they would call you a liar....


I agree...not just with sheep, but with other animals, as well. Two of my friends that have horses deworm them EVERY month. Personally, I think it's a waste of money, especially if they're not showing signs of being wormy.

Well if they don't believe me...they'd believe my neighbor if he told them!  He's this cute little old man that really knows his stuff.


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## secuono (Feb 15, 2012)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> Cornish Heritage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was told to deworm in late Spring, early Summer and then again in late Fall, early Winter. Summer for I forget what, but Winter is for Bots. So we worm 2x a year, that's it. I read somewhere that some people worm every month and I thought it was crazy!


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## bonbean01 (Feb 15, 2012)

We don't use the chemical wormer at all and other sheep people in the area use it regularly on their hair sheep and give us a "look" when we tell them that.  We mix up garlic barrier (or garlic I've put through the blender) with apple cider vinegar and a little molasses, liquid vitamin B's, opened probiotic capsules,  and drench them with that to prevent worms.  Also a few rows of the garden are for yellow crook neck squash and I let those get bigger and older and I feed them those for the vitamins and the large seeds also for worming.  We've been doing that now for four years and we've not had a problem.


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