# Advice needed: should I take on a 2yo LGD?



## Womwotai (Sep 24, 2014)

I'll try to keep this short.  The situation is that a friend is moving and cannot take her 2yo male GP with her.  His history: he has lived with her since he left his breeder as a pup.  She had a mixed homestead with animals that included chickens, turkeys, guineas, sheep, goats, pigs, pet dogs and barn cats.  He was described by the breeder as "the most serious pup" she'd ever bred.  As a puppy he never did some of the naughty things puppies do - from day 1, he was serious about his "job" and is especially alert to aerial predators.  Unlike some dogs, he doesn't jump fences and in fact is kept in by a single strand of hotwire placed just 5" off the ground.  If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it!  He is a large dog even for a GP, has never been off her property, never loaded in a car (other than when he was ill and had to go to the vet when he was much younger).  He allows his current owner to handle him but is wary of strangers and when I went to meet him, would not allow me to approach.  He didn't bark or charge and in no way did I feel threatened, but he also was not interested in socializing with me.

My situation: I keep sheep and goats.  I have physical fencing that contains them.  They have 7 acres full-time and an additional 3 acres that they have occasional access to (also fenced).  I have a run-in shelter in the pasture and a small pen fenced off within the pasture that I use as a nursery during lambing season, or a place to contain them when I need to trim feet, worm, vaccinate etc.

In addition I keep chickens, turkeys, ducks, cats and pet dogs.  In 2 ½ years I have had almost no predator issues, despite living "out in the country".  I believe my pet dogs are largely responsible for this.  They sleep in a dog igloo in the chicken yard at night and their presence deters would-be predators.

I've been mulling over the pros and cons for a week now.  As I see it:

Pros: 

added level of security, especially with lambing season coming up again in Jan/Feb
already mature LGD, instead of having to go through the puppy training stage
a dog known to be poultry safe
Cons:

big dog that needs fed 365/yr, shots, worming, vet care if injured.  In other words, a financial responsibility.  A justifiable expense if one is losing a lot of animals to predation but harder to swallow when that is not the case
we do have coyotes and foxes around here but I'm equally concerned about stray dogs and worry that a LGD will not chase off other dogs the way it would a wild predator
What I'm looking for from the community: feedback on factors I may not have considered, plus the ones I have.  And a question: how likely is this dog to bond with my sheep and goats, coming in as a mature dog?  The owner assures me he will keep predators out of the pasture regardless of whether or not he is bonded to the stock - and I believe that - but it would also be nice if he would bond with the stock.  Plus, how likely is it that he will bond with me once I am the only human around?  I was left feeling a little apprehensive yesterday, when he would not even allow me to approach to officially meet him.  If he maintains that reserve after he is here, how can I handle him at all?


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## BrownSheep (Sep 24, 2014)

I would be concerned about mixing such a serious dogs with your own. People have difficulty introducing 'normal" dogs let alone those whose job is to guard against other canines.

I believe he would bond with you. We once kept our dogs at a sheep out fits kennels. They kept their LGDs there as well. These are dogs that spend close to zero time with people. They only associate with the herders for food. After a couple of weeks they got use to use pulling up and some would greet us at the door to their kennels. It probably didn't hurt we brought treats. He would probably bond with your flock as well but if you did get him I would be worried about him trying to go "home"


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## Womwotai (Sep 24, 2014)

That is a really good point about trying to go "home" and one I had not considered.  My thought was to initially keep him in the small nursery pen for a week or so to acclimate to us - but if he tried to get out of it, he probably could.

I forgot to mention - the pet dogs and LGD would be largely separate.  The pet dogs have full access to the front 3 acres and I don't let them in the pasture (because I was thinking one day I might want to add LGD's so I kept that as a separation point for the dogs).  Meanwhile, the LGD would live in the pasture with the sheep.  That said, when there is only a wire fence between the two, there is likely to be some interaction between them.  At the old home, she recently got 2 chihuahua puppies and a GP puppy (but then learned she was moving and was unable to keep them) and the mature LGD apparently did fine with all of them - and she didn't keep the separation that I had planned on.  However I have wondered in the past about this: how do LGD's tell the difference between a pet dog and a stray?  Is it as simple as introducing them and they know that these two dogs belong and anything else doesn't?


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## Baymule (Sep 24, 2014)

I think God has blessed you. He shows you the door, but it is up to you to recognize the opportunity and open that door.


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## goats&moregoats (Sep 24, 2014)

How soon does your friend have to move? Maybe it's possible for you to go over on a daily basis and with her work around the dog so he starts to see you as part of his pack. Even having you feed him after you have gone over a few times. I think the more time you can spend with him now, the better chance for success in the end.
   I believe he would eventually bond to you, but long row to hoe before hand if done by just moving him. Just think many dogs are rescues and it eventually works out, some even happen just naturally.

   I also believe that he would attempt to go home, so is a hot wire possible for you to add to your fencing?

  Best wishes and good luck.  If it were me and I had the means to feed, vet and take on other financial aspects, I would definitely give it a shot.


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 24, 2014)

Where are you located?  If you don't want him give me your friends contact information.  There wouldn't be a single con here, and all of the pros.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 24, 2014)

The dog may or may not adapt to your pets dogs. Usually just takes time. Wise on the separation area. I would not recommend allowing any pets or other dogs into the fields of your working LGD's- that is their territory. As far as getting the dog to accept you... not unusual that he would not warm up to you on "his" land and territory.

Most LGD's cannot be bribed, so food is not usually an incentive like it is for herding breeds or pets. With strangers that want to try to befriend the dog especially without the owner(master) being present and giving permission, these dogs often take great offense and will view the "briber" as a forever enemy.
Of course this is the usual LGD, of course just as with any dog there are exceptions, more the rule of thumb with these dogs.

Often these dogs will adapt quite well into a new farm environment. I do want to say however the kind of livestock could be a factor. Sounds like it wouldn't be an issue in your case but sometimes if a dog has been raised with goats only and at a mature age they go with sheep suddenly, or the other way around there could be an issue. 

We have had bitches come for breeding staying an average of 3 days. Whereas on their farms they would *never *allow a stranger to pet them or really get too close, while here in a large kennel lot I have always been able to go in and pet them, feed them, handle them, lead them, etc. One I even did the nails on. 

Under your "Cons" section-  "_stray dogs and worry that a LGD will not chase off other dogs the way it would a wild predator"_
YES, LGD's will absolutely chase off stray dogs. If one didn't I would wonder how effective a dog it is and probably should not be considered for working as a LGD.

BTW- The LGD breeds do not eat a lot of food. They do as pups while they are growing but generally  after 8-10 months they slow way down. Winter they tend to eat well because they need the proteins and fats. Summer, or in the heat they pretty much stop eating. Our dogs generally have a 20-30 lb weight difference as they simply refuse to eat in the heat.

It is worth a try IMO. Sounds like a good dog!


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## Womwotai (Sep 25, 2014)

Thanks so much to everyone who replied!  I believe the situation is resolved as, while I was giving it due consideration, not wanting to make a mistake and wind up failing the dog, someone else has expressed interest in him.  This person has a larger property and runs 100 head of sheep and 25 head of goats, and is planning to come and get him tomorrow.  This relieves a lot of anxiety for me.

LOL Southern!  I've noticed that people WITH LGD's always say "they don't eat that much", but I think it is all relative.  I have two 40-lb pet/farm dogs whom I free feed.  They go through around 4 cups of a high quality feed between them, each day.  When I had a GP years ago, she ate 4 cups every day by herself - and she was only 80-100lb.  The dog in question in this case is closer to 200lb so I doubt he eats any less than the female did.  So I guess to me, that is a lot of food, but bottom line is that it at least doubles my feed bill.  I feed a high quality feed, figuring that I can buy good food and keep the dogs healthy, saving on vet bills, or buy cheap feed and spend more at the vet, so the cost of feed alone was, for me, a factor.

I think its one of those "insurance policy" type of expenses.  If you have a lot of predator losses, the cost of protection for them is something you don't blink at.  But if you are not losing anything to predators, the cost of protection they don't need….is harder to justify.  For us, at least.  I have no doubt that if LGD/s were on the property I'd bond with them and fall in love with them and the cost factor would go out the window but at this point they are still in the theoretical stage where my heart isn't involved so I can think just with my brain


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