# Nibbles had Quads again!  Help needed re: LETHARGY...



## shepherdO (Mar 17, 2019)

After almost a week of intermittent labour, Nibbles the Katahdin had quads unassisted.  I walked into the shed this morning to the sight of 2 ram lambs (4.5 and 5 lbs) and 2 ewe lambs (2 and 3.75 lbs).  Super cute and lively as heck.  Gotta love katahdins...

Anyhoo, ewe has a huge udder, but is extremely thin - far thinner than last year.  I don't think she was aggressive enough at the feeder, and I didn't really notice until this week.  Stupid me.

I've been supplementing with frozen colostrum (yay for me!), but the ewe is looking pretty lethargic, after initially being extremely energetic and doting.  I presented her with sheep text feed (molasses in it, etc.) and she's not interested.  I'm a bit worried...

Can sheep have 'twin lamb' post lambing?  Is she just tire?  Should I be giving her propylene glycol or whatever it is?

Thanks, 
ShepherdO


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## shepherdO (Mar 17, 2019)

Also, any suggestions re: how to manage quads?  My initial thought is, because they're so small, she's a katahdin and she has a great udder, I will leave them all with her and supplement them.

That way i don't have a full-time bottle lamb, they get the benefit of being with their mum and I can just watch to see their progress.

They're all drinking well, but it seems like the poor girl always has a lamb hanging off her and she's pretty wiped...


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 17, 2019)

I don’t have sheep, but I do raise dairy goats. You can certainly have ketosis after kidding/lambing. 

If she were a goat I’d start slowly increasing feed and giving the best hay I can find. 

Dyne is a good product, a little pricey but worth it.


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## shepherdO (Mar 17, 2019)

I'm going to get some alfalfa pellets tomorrow when the feed store opens (it's nighttime here now), but I have some alfalfa hay.  A bit stalky, but there's lots of good leaf in it, even it kind of falls everywhere... I'll put it in a bin beneath her regular hay feeder to the leaf is collected and she gets as much as possible until tomorrow.


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## Baymule (Mar 17, 2019)

I had a ewe have triplets and she never missed a beat. The littlest one died, but she raised the other two and had a bag like a Jersey cow. She always twins and always has LOTS of milk. I feed the ewes a 14% pellet and plenty of hay, I also keep mineral in front of them. I buy Dumor sheep mineral at Tractor Supply, they eat it like candy.


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## shepherdO (Mar 17, 2019)

Here is the little two lb ewe.


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## Sheepshape (Mar 18, 2019)

A ewe is equipped to feed two lambs. Fit, young ewes with good body score and excellent appetites can sometimes manage triplets (personally I always take one off her as the smallest is not likely to thrive). Quads will not do.

Ewes, particularly older ones, are often tired and lethargic the day after lambing (giving birth is exhausting and the hormonal changes after giving birth often causes a  down feeling!).

Personally, I'd take two lambs off her and feed the ewe copiously. .

The little lamb is gorgeous! (She's a whole lot bigger than my little lamb in my avatar was, though. LLeila weighed under a pound. She now weighs nearer to 150lbs).


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## promiseacres (Mar 18, 2019)

shepherdO said:


> Here is the little two lb ewe. View attachment 59721


Love her freckles... 
I would probably let them get a few days of colestrum then pull the ewes to bottle feed. Watch the ewe for diarrhea as you add to her diet.


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## shepherdO (Mar 18, 2019)

Hmmm... I plan to buy one of those bucket multi-lamb feeders today and see how it goes.  I'm going to try supplementing all 4, particularly the little ones, for a week or so and see how things go.  I have two weeks' holiday starting today, so my son and I will be able to feed multiple times per day, so I think it's worth a shot just to be around the mum all the time.

Well, time to go outside and supplement.  I hope her milk comes in better.  Her udder feels more like a bicep than a milk bag... hope it's not 'milk bag' or whatever, and rather that the babies had just kept her 'milked out' all the time and she was having trouble replenishing...


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## Daxigait (Mar 18, 2019)

I had a doe have quads last year and now I have several.  I fed them extra twice a day to take the stress off mom and I ended up selling one early on.  She produces over 12 lb of milk a day so she could have raised her own kids, but why put that much stress on her when I can add extra milk and she doesn't have to be stripped as bad and it helps them stay with a mom.
I would agree it's quite possible it's time to ketosis treat her with a little bit extra you can use propylene glycol or you can make some magic with corn syrup and creamed corn.


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## Daxigait (Mar 18, 2019)

shepherdO said:


> Hmmm... I plan to buy one of those bucket multi-lamb feeders today and see how it goes.  I'm going to try supplementing all 4, particularly the little ones, for a week or so and see how things go.  I have two weeks' holiday starting today, so my son and I will be able to feed multiple times per day, so I think it's worth a shot just to be around the mum all the time.
> 
> Well, time to go outside and supplement.  I hope her milk comes in better.  Her udder feels more like a bicep than a milk bag... hope it's not 'milk bag' or whatever, and rather that the babies had just kept her 'milked out' all the time and she was having trouble replenishing...


did you give her something like mfo solution to help prevent milk fever and to supplement her?

she was one of those bucket feeders for goats the caprine feeder and can have them on it by day three for all the babies I raised. That's a great idea for your supplement and then you can just put some out there once they're trained to it and if they're hungry enough they will go there.
  By the way, if you are just starting them out or if you need to ration your milk putting a quart jar at each hose instead of filling the bucket is a whole lot easier to clean change and keep a higher level of milk for them to suffer from without having to fill the bucket so much.


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## shepherdO (Mar 18, 2019)

Sigh... so it looks like Nibbles is a step away from death...   She went down HARD and FAST.  This morning she was lying own and not really producing milk.  I had given propylene glocyol last night and have been giving more all throughout today, along with peniccilin, and syringed water as well.

She hasn't been eating, couldn't stand - or at least, she tried once or twice, and tumbled over like she was drunk.  I had to carry/drag her into her own stall, and I've been bottle-feeding the quads since this morning.

Super sad, as she's such a nice friendly little gal and obviously gave everything for the babies.  Looks like it did her in, and hindsight being 20-20, I should have separated her and given her more feed.

At this point I'm going to bottlefeed them until they're strong enough (a week maybe) and then try to hook them onto one of my ewes whose lambs died.  Assuming she doesn't make it of course.  And it's not looking good.

*sigh*  Lambing season 1 - 14 living lambs from 8 ewes - 6 rams, 8 ewes.  3 dead ewe lambs, 1 (likely) dead ewe.  

ShepherdO


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## promiseacres (Mar 19, 2019)

sorry.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 19, 2019)

so sorry


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## Daxigait (Mar 19, 2019)

Be advised too much propylene glycol can be toxic.that is why I suggested the magic too, but if it didn't work within 24 hours you need a vet if you're going to save her there's some people if they're still eating can transfer cud  and all the other stuff here's an article about it.
*Treatment:* Treatment consists of increasing the energy density of the diet. This can be accomplished by feeding good-quality roughage and increased concentrate in early stages. Administer propylene glycol or Ketoplus two to three times per day. _Propylene glycol may be toxic at high and repeated doses_. Limit to 60cc/dose in a dam that is eating, and discontinue if she goes off feed. Supplement with a mixture of sodium bicarbonate given twice daily. Alternative treatment may consist of Calf Pac/Probios mixed with 100cc Revive (one bottle 50% dextrose, 20cc B-complex, 5cc B-12, 2cc 500 mg/ml thiamine), and 100cc of water. Corn, molasses, sweet feed and/or corn syrup can also be administered to increase caloric intake. If there is no response to treatment within 24 hours, a veterinarian should be contacted for more aggressive treatment.

Aggressive treatment consists of inducing labor or delivery of kids via C-section; the kids are often non-viable, but this may be the only treatment of choice for saving the dam. Force feeding and maintaining appetite are critical. Snatching a cud from healthy goats to feed to sick goats can be useful. Boer goats may be predisposed to this condition.


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## shepherdO (Mar 19, 2019)

Daxigait, thanks for the advice.  I don't think I'll be able to follow that protocol this time, as I think I missed the window and it's too late.  But I'll definitely keep this for the future.


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## Daxigait (Mar 19, 2019)

So sorry, I didn't know if you were bad had given you further options ivy or tubing her or if you've already lost.
Here is the full article though this one is for goats because that's what I raise so I had the link handy
https://articles.extension.org/pages/29494/goat-ketosis


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## AmberLops (Mar 19, 2019)

I would use Dyne and maybe some sugar water, just to bring her energy levels up


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## babsbag (Mar 19, 2019)

Calcium.  Calcium.  Calcium. Take her temp.  If it is low she needs calcium. Not sugar.


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## babsbag (Mar 19, 2019)

Actually if her temp is low she needs a vet.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 19, 2019)

I agree! Sounds like calcium issues. 
What’s her temp?


It is not too late to at least try. I’ve pulled goats back from the brink of death. Goats that “shouldn’t” have survived. I’ve lost some over the years but saved many. I know it is an uphill battle, but for me, I have to try.


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## Sheepshape (Mar 20, 2019)

Sorry to hear of the problems, but it may yet be solvable. Get the vet....first and foremost.

As others have said, subcutaneous calcium (about 60mls, warm and in 3 or more sites) can save the day if her serum calcium is low. small doses of propylene glycol, then food, food , food ....high carbohydrate and then protein.

The strain on the body of a ewe who has produced quads is enormous....they cannot physically cope with feeding quads after the birth.

Here's hoping that you can turn this around, but as our vet delights in saying 'Sheep are white things which lie around in fields trying to think of a way to die'. Though not TOTALLY correct, sheep care is difficult and hard work. As a prey species, they only show illness when it is advanced and severe. 

Good Luck.....and don't be too hard on yourself about the lambing figures. I have been keeping sheep for years, and my first 5 lambs this season were all dead. The fact that the ewes are still alive from two of the 'dead' births is a minor miracle and required a vet visit. One of these two ewes is still touch-and-go and hasn't even stood for a fortnight......she's now getting 'physio' ....standing between two of us after we have lifted her to her feet......I'm not thinking things will go well. However, as with your ewe, if you do something she may well die, if you do nothing, she definitely will.


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## shepherdO (Mar 20, 2019)

So we thought Nibbles was a gonner last night.  After pumping her with penicillin, propylene glycol and water via syringe, it seemed too little too late.  She spent most of the day unable to move, not eating or drinking, etc.  Being in intermittent labour for 4.5 days, along with carrying quads and being thin to start with appeared to have taken its toll.

Everything came to a head last evening, when she was laying down with her head completely outstretched, glazed over eyes, barely breathing, legs sticking out, etc.  I expected a dead sheep this morning, and we’ve been bottling the quads since their first day.  Then I find out that propylene glycol in extreme quantities can be toxic.  Oh dear, the perfect storm.

Well, this morning I find Nibbles up and bleating, and she drinks a lot of water when I pour it.  I doped her up with molasses and Aunt Jemima (I didn’t have any corn syrup) and we headed out to H2O for the day.  When we arrived home, she was up and nibbling (no pun intended) hay, and so I thought I’d put the lambs in with her.  At first she seemed to be rejecting them all, head butting them and shoving against the walls.  However, after about 30 minutes she had re-adopted them, and they were all taking turns nursing – she has a huge udder but basically no milk, so I think it’s just for comfort on their part.

Anyhoo, I separated them again to give her some peace, but she wouldn’t have it, racing around trying to get to them, so I gave them back and she’s not nibbling alfalfa, etc.  I’m still going to bottlefeed them as she regains her strength and possibly gets some milk back.  But the family is rejoined and I’m pleasantly shocked and hoping for the best. 

What a roller coaster...


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 20, 2019)

Are you testing her urine with ketone sticks?


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## babsbag (Mar 20, 2019)

I would still give her some calcium. If you don't have the liquid I would give her some tums. Ketosis and happen, but more common before lambing. The calcium issues are more common after lambing.


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## Baymule (Mar 20, 2019)

I give my ewes dolomite lime, free choice. During pregnancy and lactation, they inhale it. Dolomite lime is usually found in the garden section. The lambs eat it too.


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## shepherdO (Mar 21, 2019)

I got some calcium from the vet.  Took forever to inject.  I'm assuming (hopefully) I should see an increase in milk production?  I also gave penicillin, some more PropGlycol and corn syrup, and syringed in some water as she's not drinking now.

Basically, she's recovered and taken back all her lambs, but has no milk in her huge, hard udder.  Nice.  Well, technically her right side has nothing, and her left side has a bit.  I'm leaving her lambs on her to increase the demand, but if/when her milk comes in I'll be leaving her with the two tiny lambs (2 and 3 lambs) and finding another way to fed the two 'big' 5 pounders 

I think I'm going to give one more calcium injection today, along with penicillin and hope I see something happening...


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## Baymule (Mar 21, 2019)

I hope she continues to improve.


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## shepherdO (Mar 22, 2019)

Seems she's well on her way to recovery.  She even nibbled a bit of grain yesterday (something she's been avoiding).  I put her with the other sheep yesterday b/c I think psychologically she needed to get away from the jug she's been in since lambing/labour.  I still keep the quads in at night, although they're my healthiest most vigorous lambs!

She's producing a very consistent dribble of milk in one side, and though I am supplementing all the lambs, the constant suckling of 4 lambs on one teat should keep up the 'demand' part of the supply-demand equation!


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## Mini Horses (Mar 22, 2019)

Glad to hear she's better.   Praying it continues to improve!  Hey, 4 healthy lambs for you.  Give her a hug!


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## Sheepshape (Mar 22, 2019)

shepherdO said:


> the constant suckling of 4 lambs on one teat should keep up the 'demand' part of the supply-demand equation!


Try to discourage this or she is likely to get mastitis.


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## shepherdO (Mar 23, 2019)

Hmm... good point.  I had wondered about this.  

I'm in the process of figuring out the best route to take.  Nibbles (mum) is now back eating hay and grain after a very long 6 days 'on the edge', so that's great.  She's only producing milk on the left side - the right is a hard mass.  Thinking back to last year, her one living lamb (his 3 siblings perished) only ever seemed to drink on one side, so I'm wondering if she had mastitis in the past...

Anyhoo, I think she could probably raise the littlest 2 of the quads with her one working side - they were only 2 and 3.5 lbs when born.  At this point I've been leaving all the lambs with her, but putting the two males on other ewes 2-3 times per day, so they haven't really been getting anything from their real mum.

Should I just remove the two big guys, seeing that they're very healthy, and raise them on a combo of mooching off my two lambless ewes as well as bottlefeeding to top them off?

This would leave Nibbles to concentrate on her two littlest lambs, and I'll be at the ready with a bottle if necessary to keep them going?

I think this is what I might do...

Thanks for the tips!


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## Mike CHS (Mar 23, 2019)

I won't be critical since I haven't read the whole thread but you are asking an awful lot from a ewe that is past her capacity to do even more.


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## shepherdO (Mar 23, 2019)

Mike CHS - hence my asking for advice 

I'm trying to make it easier on her - she loves her babies and I'd like to give her a chance to raise the little two - they were only 2 and 3.5 lbs at birth, so they're not a significant drain on her.  I'll bottlefeed them to top them up, so she's not doing that much work, and still enjoying her lambs.

I'm leaning towards removing the two big guys completely and having them raised by surrogates who've lost their lambs, so that should save $$ on milk replacer as well ensure they're getting milk designed for sheep by sheep.

Hopefully a happie(est possible) ending for the quad drama.  After this Nibbles will be retired from breeding.

ShepherdO


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## Mike CHS (Mar 23, 2019)

shepherdO said:


> Mike CHS - hence my asking for advice
> 
> I'm trying to make it easier on her - she loves her babies and I'd like to give her a chance to raise the little two - they were only 2 and 3.5 lbs at birth, so they're not a significant drain on her.  I'll bottlefeed them to top them up, so she's not doing that much work, and still enjoying her lambs.
> 
> ...



That is a hard one to respond too since you are doing good with a whole lot of negatives.


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## shepherdO (Mar 23, 2019)

Right - it's definitely not an ideal situation, but the lambs need to live, and the ewes have to do their part as well.  So finding a way for the sheep to do as much feeding as possible is ideal, to save on replacer.

Trust me, it's not fun, and takes a long time to hold the surrogate ewes and make sure all the lambs have had their fill, but I'm on spring break, so what better way to spend a vacation than catching and holding ewes and lambs 3-4 times a day, right?


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## Sheepshape (Mar 24, 2019)

Make it easier on yourself and her....take the two big guys off her and bottle feed them exclusively.  The little two could stay with mum, but be largely bottle fed. It will cost more in milk replacer, but save you lots of backache and fighting getting reluctant ewes to allow another ewe's babies to feed.

She's probably already had an anti-inflammatory, but this may help her udder......an udder which has been the site of previous mastitis will swell and become hot, but little or no milk may come out.

I had an old girl who had had mastitis who was impregnated by the neighbour's ram paying a night visit to her (unintentional). She had triplets which I largely bottle fed....they all did fine.


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