# Parasite infestation?



## Carla D (Nov 24, 2018)

Tanner  has some issues with his skin. I had initially thought is was lice or mites. They have been treated with Dectomax because they all had parasites. Today I went and brushed them all as I was giving them their bottles. A couple of them had crusty stuff and white specks of different sizes. I wanted to see if I could brush the crustys and specks away. The brushing helped tremendously. Except for on Tanner. The crusty was brushed off and the white specks were somewhat removed. I’m not sure if the white specks are lice eggs or not. They are in many different sizes. Some of which I think are too big to be lice eggs. But once I removed the crusted stuff from his neck I noticed some bumps on the back of his neck. At first I thought it was small scabs so I tried a bit more intently to brush them out. Tanner wasn’t tolerating it so I took a closer look at them. There was 4-6 small bumps about the size of sewing pins with very small bead as the head. To me it looked like they were just under the skin, which would explain Tanners intolerance. They must be painful. I am going to search on the internet to see if I can find anything about them. I did want to post in here before I did in case anyone had any ideas or experiences like this. There are a few pictures. You may not be able to determine exactly what you are seeing, but I tried. My eyesight isn’t as good as it used to be and neither is my husbands.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 24, 2018)

Not something i have seen, but very curious  to find out !


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## Carla D (Nov 24, 2018)

I’m finding they look a whole lot like burrowing mites. But burrowing mites don’t tend to be on a goats neck. More like their ears, around their face, testicular area, around the rear. I’m trying to figure out if lice burrow or bury eggs. That was my only other guess.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 24, 2018)

You sure have had your hands full with these guys. Hope you find out what it is...pretty  sure someone will jump on and give you some advice...


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## Carla D (Nov 24, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> You sure have had your hands full with these guys. Hope you find out what it is...pretty  sure someone will jump on and give you some advice...


Tell me about it. I wonder how long it’s going to take to get everything under control? These poor guys, I don’t know how much more they can take.i don’t know how much more I can take either.


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## Carla D (Nov 24, 2018)

I think what Tanner has is either demodectic mange or chorionic mange. Neither of them are easy to deal with.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 24, 2018)

Yikes.... i don't  know what to say....i don't  have experience  with that...keep your hands and your daughters super clean after touching him...


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## Carla D (Nov 25, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Yikes.... i don't  know what to say....i don't  have experience  with that...keep your hands and your daughters super clean after touching him...


Actually things weren’t as bad as I thought. Because I had two goats down tonight and three more that were bloated as well, I got overwhelmed and called the vet to come out to the farm. There has been so many issues these last three weeks I thought things needed to be determined and dealt with all at once.

He came out and looked them all over. They have Enterotoxemia because of the big change in temperature and they are still bottle feeding. That explains the bloating.

Then on Tanner, someone  has been chewing on his fur. He does have a growing number of patches on his back where his hair has been broken partial shaft. That’s where the scaly and bald spot on his back is from. The vet thinks the bumps and crap on his neck is due to either irritation or he’s scratching his neck on something. It got irritated and that resulted in the bumps on the back of his neck. Not mites.

Two other goats had developed dime sized abscesses on their sides. The scabby lump on their side is from when they ruptured. Not mites.

He actually took the time to explain things. What to look for. What caused it, and how to treat it if it happens again. He said it shouldn’t  happen anymore this year, unless the bacteria is blooming in a few other ones. Since they will be weaned in the next two weeks I shouldn’t have to worry about that with them down the road. That is what I need from my vet. I know there are some things I will be able to treat without the vet. But I have to learn about them first. The whys, hows, when’s of these things. I have always learned better with hands on experience. I can read and reread and still not understand. I’ve been that way my entire life. He did reassure me that I’m not killing them. In fact, he said their surgical sites look amazing, even the one I had bandaged earlier this week. He was really impressed about their appearance. He said their coats are really shiny and they’ve gained noticeable amount of weight over the nearly last two weeks. 

He even suggested how I should wean them and get them to drink water. He told me they were bottle babies. Just like a certain breed of calf that won’t drink from a dish, bowl, trough that’s what these guys are doing. He told me to start decreasing the formula a little bit each time for 1-2 weeks and adding more water to it will be the trick. He suggested I get a bucket with several nipples. Hang the bucket and let them drink their milk that way. When their milk is gone fill the bucket with water, to kind of wash the milk down and out of the bucket until they are no longer getting any formula. They should eventually learn to drink from a dish or bowl. They just aren’t ready. I feel much better now. I’m not going to kill my goats. I have a plan on how to and when to start weaning, now. And how to get them to drink their water. I also now know how to treat this type of bloat. All in all, a good visit.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 25, 2018)

Thats great news Carla, i am very happy that you got the reassurance  from your vet. I bottle fed Rocky and Lilly for ten weeks and at eight weeks started with the extra water, Rocky was still six months old and i would bring him one bottle of just water ,lol. We both enjoyed our bottle time together....but i didnt have as many at that time as you do !


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## greybeard (Nov 25, 2018)

Carla D said:


> Just like a certain breed of calf that won’t drink from a dish, bowl, trough t....


I'm curious what that cattle breed is. I'm not familiar with that.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2018)

Carla D said:


> He came out and looked them all over. They have Enterotoxemia because of the big change in temperature and they are still bottle feeding. That explains the bloating.


Enterotoxemia is not caused by weather change.
https://vet.uga.edu/news/view/enterotoxemia_in_sheep_and_goats
http://extension.colostate.edu/topi...-overeating-disease-of-sheep-and-goats-8-018/


Carla D said:


> Two other goats had developed dime sized abscesses on their sides. The scabby lump on their side is from when they ruptured. Not mites.


What exactly caused the abscesses?


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## Carla D (Nov 25, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Thats great news Carla, i am very happy that you got the reassurance  from your vet. I bottle fed Rocky and Lilly for ten weeks and at eight weeks started with the extra water, Rocky was still six months old and i would bring him one bottle of just water ,lol. We both enjoyed our bottle time together....but i didnt have as many at that time as you do !


I enjoy our bottle time as well. That’s why I haven’t been in a big hurry to wean them. But now I have a very good reason to get them weaned ASAP.


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## Carla D (Nov 25, 2018)

greybeard said:


> I'm curious what that cattle breed is. I'm not familiar with that.


I believe he said it was either guernsey or Jersey.


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## Carla D (Nov 25, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Enterotoxemia is not caused by weather change.
> https://vet.uga.edu/news/view/enterotoxemia_in_sheep_and_goats
> http://extension.colostate.edu/topi...-overeating-disease-of-sheep-and-goats-8-018/
> 
> What exactly caused the abscesses?


I did read your article. I wasn’t 100% sure about his answer pertaining to the weather. I think he said it had to do with the big change in temperatures. Because we had been really cold, mid teens for a couple of weeks, then we had about 5 days of 40+ degree temps. Giving their clostridium the chance to bloom because their rumins have not completely developed due to the fact that they are still relying on formula for a major source of their nutrition. I had kinda thought that an animals internal temperature pretty much stayed constant with only a degree or two change when sick or stressed. So, his explanation doesn’t make any sense? Because the symptoms he described and the treatment course he gave me matches the ones in the article. I’m so green about goats that I haven’t been able to determine fact from fiction or knowledge to figure some of this stuff out.


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## Carla D (Nov 25, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Enterotoxemia is not caused by weather change.
> https://vet.uga.edu/news/view/enterotoxemia_in_sheep_and_goats
> http://extension.colostate.edu/topi...-overeating-disease-of-sheep-and-goats-8-018/
> 
> What exactly caused the abscesses?


That I’m not entirely sure. Could it have been a scratch or small wound that festered?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2018)

Carla D said:


> I enjoy our bottle time as well. That’s why I haven’t been in a big hurry to wean them. But now I have a very good reason to get them weaned ASAP.



The switching of formulas and the corn husk is more your culprit. Not the bottle feeding. And if you were worried about them gaining and suddenly upped their amounts that sets them up for this.
Standard size goats are generally not weaned til 12-16 weeks.  We do not wean any of ours from milk til 16 weeks, of course they are eating hay and have some goat feed as well.
Notice in the article there are other contributing factors and you guys have had pretty much all those factors. Coccidia, parasites, change of feed, the stress of surgical dehorning and so on.


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## Carla D (Nov 25, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> The switching of formulas and the corn husk is more your culprit. Not the bottle feeding. And if you were worried about them gaining and suddenly upped their amounts that sets them up for this.
> Standard size goats are generally not weaned til 12-16 weeks.  We do not wean any of ours from milk til 16 weeks, of course they are eating hay and have some goat feed as well.
> Notice in the article there are other contributing factors and you guys have had pretty much all those factors. Coccidia, parasites, change of feed, the stress of surgical dehorning and so on.


Ok, that DOES make complete sense. I think you have most likely pinpointed every little thing that was going on with these guys.

I had switched their bottle feed for a few meals, and hadn’t thought about those reproductions. I do believe you 100% about the corn husks. I was worried about their weight and had increased their the amount of calf manna a little bit. The fact that I haven’t noticed much if any calf manna on the ground does tell me that that alone is a really big change in their diet. I’m going to take your 12-16 weeks of bottle feeding for full sized goats is the desired if not recommended thing to do. And yup, they have had all of thos very things you had mentioned, Coccidia, worms, dehorning, banding, diet change, probably a few more are the likely cause of what has been going on these last couple of days. 

I pretty much have only one question remaining that I hope you can give me some perspective about. Their feed. Things have gotten extremely tight financially, especially with all of the vetting that has been done recently. With that in mind we were running low on the alfalfa and the meat goat pellets that we had mixed all of our small remaining rations together so we would have a better idea as to exactly what we had available. We honestly can’t afford to go out and buy a $65-70 bag of calf manna right now. That’s why we mixed all of them together. So now the ratio is more like 2 parts meat grower pellets, 2 parts alfalfa, and 2-2.5 parts of the calf manna. That is a pretty big change in pellet mixture. I can also see why that may be a big issue especially since it seems like the only parts they are eating is pretty much the calf manna and some alfalfa pellets, not the meat goat. That is also a bigger change. With all of that in mind, do you think it would be ok to continue using the pellets we have that are all mixed together and then clean up the waste. Or should I be trying to scrounge up a bag of calf manna and alfalfa? I’m inclined to continue with what they have since they aren’t eating what they want out of it, then only buy the calf manna and alfalfa pellets. Is the calf manna medicated as well? Or am I going to heed to do something about the CD that they aren’t getting because they are not currently eating their goat pellets? What WOULD YOU DO? We already aren’t going to be having a Christmas. That’s another thing we may have to struggle with is buying new feed. I’m torn.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 25, 2018)

Sounds like too much calf manna to me - it is meant to be a supplement - NOT a feed.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2018)

@frustratedearthmother  is 100% right. 
I posted before with nutritional facts and info and so I will say it again. Get them off the calf -manna. It is a supplement not a feed and even as a supplement it is small amounts.
Look back at the link provided with the info about Urinary Calculi.  

You have wethers now which means they should have little grain (feed) and the grain (feed) given should be balanced with everything I already mentioned. 
They need hay and lots of it. Orchard OR  orchard /alfalfa blend is good.

I would NOT use any calf manna at all. I would get a good medicated goat feed (not sweet feed) with 2:1 up to 4:1 ratio  and give in small amounts. 

One thing I am not sure has been mentioned is if these kids are CAE positive you will have a hard time growing them.


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## greybeard (Nov 25, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> It is a supplement not a feed and even as a supplement it is small amounts.


For what it's worth the same holds true for calves on calf manna as well. 
One of he problems comes from Calf Manna's advertising........
_
*The Solution:*

Calf-Manna is an ideal first feed for kids as it provides high quality proteins, including whey, which are necessary for sound growth and development_
https://www.mannapro.com/products/goat/goats

The instructions are rather vague:
_Goats 1/4 to 1/2 lb per day_
https://www.jefferspet.com/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTQvMDkvMDgvMTMvMzkvMDAvODM3LzAwMjgzMjQucGRmIl1d

But, it doesn't mention what AGE goats.  By it's nature, it makes the animal eat more and more isn't always better for animals still on milk or just weaned.

One size (or instructions does not fit all.
It's good stuff and I've used it for years with good results but you have to be careful because of the high energy content and carbs. 

_Dairy Calves Up to 1 lb per day
Beef Calves 10% of the creep feed_
Just way too many variables to use fixed ratios...with any livestock.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2018)

greybeard said:


> For what it's worth the same holds true for calves on calf manna as well.
> One of he problems comes from Calf Manna's advertising........
> _
> *The Solution:*
> ...


Grey beard you nailed it- the advertising and use... ugh

The issue is goats. Goats are not cattle and far too many livestock vets are not savvy with goats, they may be great with cattle but far from being great with goats. The company itself is good however they are about selling their product as you pointed out. All my large animal vets that are primarily cattle vets pretty much do most things as if though goats were cattle. 

Some things add to the difficulty of a new goat owner-
The poster has little info on these goats. 
No one knows if they are CAE neg or any other disease status
No one knows their birthweight
No one knows if they had any colostrum from their dam

What is known-
They have had coccidia, parasites, "abscesses" and are very small for their age (although they look rather good) and now were diagnosed with entero... which IMO is still questionable as no anti biotics were prescribed and no anti toxin given - so there is that. Basically the kids had a sour stomach. They had no markedly high fever etc. If they had entero they'd be dead without extreme intervention. Period.  

Keeping it simple is the best thing she can do. 
High protein, switching feeds, sudden changes or increase all add up to big oopsies. Eating more just sets wethered goats up for more issues. Non wethered goats too.
Goats get thrown off metabolically quite easily. Over graining on non market animals is a huge no no. The limited research done on goats in the states are for meat goats- think market animals. Dairy goats are really quite different and if all of us dairy goat people did all the things the researchers say we would have lots and lots of dead dairy goats. Two different animals with two different functions.
Yep they are both goats but very different animals.  

Cheap goats generally = large vet bills.


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