# Herdsire Qualifications - DNA testing



## Green Acres Farm (Nov 16, 2017)

What are your qualifications for bucks born on your farm to leave intact as a herd sire?

I don't feel any of my does are herd sire quality yet, but would be interested to hear what other farm's policies are.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 16, 2017)

Because we tend to keep so many bucks, we watch them grow out.
We often will use a young buck, if we think they are good enough to use, in our own herd first. 
This way we KNOW what that buck can do.

Mostly, I go by eye. I trust that more than anything.
Sometimes a pedigree and or a LA score may be fantastic but the buck over "there" that doesn't have all that may still be the better buck.

If I wouldn't use the buck in my herd than it gets wethered.  

There are great brood does that produce incredible animals. The ability to retain and know your goats IMO makes a big difference.


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## Bayleaf Meadows (Nov 17, 2017)

Mother Earth News has an article on "How to Pick a Herdsire"- https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/selecting-a-herdsire-part-1
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/choosing-a-herdsire-part-2
https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/choosing-a-herdsire-part-3


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2017)

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> Mother Earth News has an article on "How to Pick a Herdsire"- https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/selecting-a-herdsire-part-1
> https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/choosing-a-herdsire-part-2
> https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/choosing-a-herdsire-part-3



good article but a couple things come to mind.
None of these goats are set up or standing properly.

When looking at rear angulation if the the back legs are stretched out behind the animal it either is set up wrong or actually has poor back legs.

Pins, hocks, pasterns should be in a complete straight line... then look at angulation.
The last buck was set on a downward slope... so it makes it's rump look higher and this may be where it looks like it has a dip in the chine.

It is important to understand HOW people set an animal up.
We see this all the time... someone will set up a goat and take pics from behind and spread those rear legs a mile apart.
First, it looks like they are doing the splits, second, it looks stupid, third a new person or someone not knowing what they are looking at will think WOW great width between hocks where as the goat may NOT have good width at all.

Learning to critique your goat takes time. The other aspect is instead of the goat "set up" how does the goat look just natural? Out in the field?

In the second pic of the gold ND - he is to stretched out getting food to actually see his good qualities. This affects the rump and those rear legs. 
The first ND "looks" very uphill but again look at the placement of those rear legs... way behind the goat. If they were in the right place would he look uphill? Would his rump be level? Would he be high in the rear?

I have a series of pics of Kenji- that I think are good teaching pics- if anyone is interested.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 17, 2017)

I know some people who sell just about every buck born as a herd sire, and others who wether bucks out does who have appraised 90 and with CH status. I guess it comes down to what you feel comfortable with having your herd name on.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 17, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> We see this all the time... someone will set up a goat and take pics from behind and spread those rear legs a mile apart.
> First, it looks like they are doing the splits, second, it looks stupid, third a new person or someone not knowing what they are looking at will think WOW great width between hocks where as the goat may NOT have good width at all.


That is my absolute pet peeve!


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 17, 2017)

@Southern by choice we would like to see the pictures


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2017)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I know some people who sell just about every buck born as a herd sire, and others who wether bucks out does who have appraised 90 and with CH status. I guess it comes down to what you feel comfortable with having your herd name on.


One of our mentors entire herd is 90 or better and all on test, doesn't show anymore but- yes she wethers and sends almost every buck to market- they are exceptional animals but there is no point in having so many ... she keeps out about 2 bucks a year.
Again, LA is just a tool... never the whole picture. 


Green Acres Farm said:


> That is my absolute pet peeve!


Mine too!

The article is good.

I also think there are some herds that are so established and so consistent that they can find that "not buck worthy" one and wether whereas the rest of their bucks are quality. 

I also think people need to keep in mind. A Lucky Star or Rockin CB Buck is going to be awesome but also big $$$.
For many people that are starting out or breeding they cannot afford that nor can they get their $$$ back out of it.


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## babsbag (Nov 17, 2017)

When I was looking for a new herdsire  for my Alpines a few years back I had a hard time finding one that wasn't related to Tempo Aquila Freelance or his offspring. I know he was a great buck and all but I wasn't impressed with what that line was bringing into my herd. So I found a buck who's dam was a *milker, he wasn't a Tempo prodigy, and he looked good. He has been an awesome buck and brought some different bloodlines into a very crowed gene pool. AI doesn't always do the breed a favor. 

My new Alpine herdsire was bought strictly because of his Alpha S1 Casein variants. He is a French Alpine, first one I have ever owned. He is young so we will see how he fills out. I have been told that French Alpine are usually narrow across the chest and so far he is that.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 17, 2017)

I think it's really important to retain animals and see how they do. Clover's buckling is staying here right now to see how he develops, his dam is very nice doe with a great udder. 

Just something to think about- one of my best Nigerian Dwarf bucks came from a "no name" farm. They don't show, LA, or participate on milktest. But we saw the animals and waited for two years to get animals from a particular lineup. This is how we have Lil Joe. He has produced 15 (?) kids now and he has really stamped on some great things. 

A goat that came from the same farm was heavily related to Lil Joe and did some great things as well. His daughters had substantially better udders than their dam. This little "no name" buck did wonders. 

I have seen CH does that I would never even consider getting kids out of. Does that score 90 that just didn't strike my fancy. The numbers are great, but I want to breed something I like. 

Right now I have 5 kids out of my other ND buck. They are all kids so it's a bit early to tell how they'll turn out. I am very excited to see how they do and expect good things.  

Knowing the breeder is really important too. 

Hopefully we will be doing LA and Milktest this year. Right now my goats are doing quite well in the show ring and are milking great.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2017)

I think too many bucks are left intact and sold as herdsires.  We have been guilty of that ourselves.
So, I can tell you what our plan is for next year.
We are only going to offer bucks out of Zamia, Clarabelle, Rosemary, and Taffy.  All appraised over 90 with E on udder.  Zamia and Clarabelle have the SGCH (superior genetics) designation and Rosemary and Taffy have the GCH.  All have milk stars.  Probably not going to keep bucks out of Cocoa since she didn't get E on udder.
And one other thing,  I think that if Taffy and Rosie's aren't sold by the time they are 10 weeks old we will go ahead and wether them.

That's kind of where we are trying to get with our herdsires.  Zeus, Jupiter, Valiant, and Vivald all of their dams are SGCH.  Big Brown's dam is GCH with 90 and E on udder.  Rocky will be the only one that doesn't meet that criteria, but he isn't going anywhere.
I like the numbers.  Avoids "barn goggles"

I saw something that someone wrote on this with a flow chart on a facebook page but I can't find it.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 17, 2017)

I'm getting to the point now where I know what I like and what I don't. There are certain lines that get a ton of attention, but I wouldn't want a herd sire from them.  

Often, I see goats with 'E' udders I wouldn't give an 'E', and others with 'V' udders that look better than a lot of 'E's. So I wouldn't personally wether or not wether because of someone else's opinion through an LA score on my goat.


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 17, 2017)

For us the 2018 kidding will hopefully show us if we made any improvements from our original does- Coco, Maggie and Obie with our buck Chester.


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## rosti (Nov 17, 2017)

I've only sold a few intact bucks, and have only retained one, which was this year, since we first started breeding in 2011. First, I need to _need_ another buck, and he must be able to cross with a few of my does. (For example, the one I kept was an AI kid so I could use different genetics, though he's still related to a few of our does.) 
Obviously, his dam and sire must be "made of the stuff I like" and come from high producing lines, with no background of genetic problems/diseases. 
It's hard to list it all, really, because I might choose a buck that may be lacking in one area but will greatly improve our lines in another area. No goat is perfect and you kind gotta lean the teeter-totter back and forth without going to far either way. 
More related to buying than retaining, but one thing I don't go by when choosing any goat is show wins. So what if they won every class at the fair for years in a row if the competition was lousy and classes were small.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2017)

rosti said:


> I've only sold a few intact bucks, and have only retained one, which was this year, since we first started breeding in 2011. First, I need to _need_ another buck, and he must be able to cross with a few of my does. (For example, the one I kept was an AI kid so I could use different genetics, though he's still related to a few of our does.)
> Obviously, his dam and sire must be "made of the stuff I like" and come from high producing lines, with no background of genetic problems/diseases.
> It's hard to list it all, really, because I might choose a buck that may be lacking in one area but will greatly improve our lines in another area. No goat is perfect and you kind gotta lean the teeter-totter back and forth without going to far either way.
> More related to buying than retaining, but one thing I don't go by when choosing any goat is show wins. So what if they won every class at the fair for years in a row if the competition was lousy and classes were small.


Agree with most of what you say 
And you are right about show records in shows with lousy competition
But if a doe has been best of breed 9 times or a doe has been a grand champion multiple times in a show with 80 milkers then chances are all of the other parts are there too


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2017)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I'm getting to the point now where I know what I like and what I don't. There are certain lines that get a ton of attention, but I wouldn't want a herd sire from them.
> 
> Often, I see goats with 'E' udders I wouldn't give an 'E', and others with 'V' udders that look better than a lot of 'E's. So I wouldn't personally wether or not wether because of someone else's opinion through an LA score on my goat.


We have had 3 Linear Appraisals and every one confirmed what we already thought about our animals
The ones we thought were excellent were excellent on appraisal
The ones we thought were very good were very good on their appraisal
In fact if we listed our goats in order from top to bottom on appraisal score I would place them in the same order.
Cocoa got V on udder and her udder is a V 

We have learned so much from participating in LA its unbelievable
We were a host herd this year
I got to watch 2 other herds be appraised before mine and heard their questions and the answers
You can ask questions
They explain
There is no better tool for evaluating your animals
We have sold animals and are selling animals based in their appraisal
Not necessarily based on their total score but something the appraiser pointed out
Do you know what a tilted chest wall is ?
A linear appraiser can tell you what it is
Or is your animal narrower at the pins than the hocks
They will point that out with no barn goggles


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## rosti (Nov 17, 2017)

[QUOTE="OneFineAcre, 
But if a doe has been best of breed 9 times or a doe has been a grand champion multiple times in a show with 80 milkers then chances are all of the other parts are there too[/QUOTE]   

True. And if a doe wins at the Nationals, or even places high in her class, I will look into her more. It's just so often I see ads or on breeders' websites that the animal has been BIS or BOB x amount of times, but no indication of where that was and the amount/quality of competition.


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## Bayleaf Meadows (Nov 17, 2017)

I've only been to one appraisal.  I didn't have any goats there, but I got a lot out of watching the process.  And I could tell that what the appraisers were saying really opened the eyes of the owners about what to look for and what to avoid.  I certainly was looking at some traits the wrong way and will be better able to choose a goat in the future.  Show performance can vary from one judge or group of goats to another, but consistent placement is significant.  What I like best is adding milk test to the mix and voila- a detailed picture of the dairy performance.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2017)

IMO LA is a good tool.... but again it was taken from the dairy cow industry and modified for the goats and again just like all things... people have determine what is perfection and what is not.
The other critical things are not measured by LA, Milktest, or show wins.... that is hardiness, parasite resistance, kidding ease, ability to live and thrive as a goat and longevity.
Nigerians are the hardiest of all breeds hands down, so this may not apply so much to them but I can say the more fru fru the goat it seems those other categories are very important.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2017)

You can't independently, quantifiably evaluate parasite resistance, hardiness, kidding ease
You can only go by what the person selling the goat says
And you run into the whole " barn goggle" issue


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2017)

There was a thread recently on a FB page asking why 4 times as many ND bucks were registered each year than any other breed
A very prominent ND breeder cracked that because most ND breeders felt that blue eyes and moonspots were a valid reason to sell a buck
He had a point
But he made another post that said that he was guilty as anyone because he would sell a buck from any of his does to anyone who wanted one.
So there you go
Those top farms will sell a buck out of every single breeding to anyone who will buy it


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 17, 2017)

I think when selecting a herdsire you need to do what's best for your situation.

I wouldn't leave a goat intact _just _because he is hardy.
I also wouldn't keep a goat intact just because is has a certain color etc. (we all know how I feel about that!)

I personally love looking at the numbers! I think it's a great tool. OFA- you are right when it comes to you are just going off of the seller is telling you. For us, we are retaining so many of our goats we will at least know our herd. 

We have a lamancha who's dam is a 92 EEEE. She is a hard keeper (I think part of it was gut infection) 
I want to cross her with an animal who is not only quality (LA, milktest for example) but hardy/easy keeper as well.

I have a buck who is out of a 2010 spotlight sale doe, his grandam is a SGCH LA 93EEEE, her Sire's dam is a SGCH 94 EEEE- the highest lamancha ever. His whole dam line is spectacular. 

The sire to my boy is a CH LA 91 EEE and is all Mint Leaf.

Just an amazing pedigree. 

So I can most definitely appreciate those LA's. 
*But this buck is a hard keeper.* He is growing good, I think part of it is that he is putting all his growth into growing TALL. But I have a hard time keeping good fleshing on him. He is only in with 2 other bucks- a nubian (dam LA 90, sire 91) and a Not so Mini Nubian who is 125#. The Nubian buck gained almost 15# a month for the first year. Management is not an issue- this boy just needs to be pampered.

But I can honestly say if his kids are like this I will not use him. Yes the pedigree is great, the scores are great, but it isn't worth the stress on my end. If my animals don't look like I think they should, it causes me to stress. I don't want super fast growers that end up being "over mature" but I also don't want super slow growers either. We have some, they end up great but takes a long time to grow them. Talking about the Lamanchas of course. I am getting firmer and firmer and when we retain kids we are keeping the most correct kids that are the hardiest and grow at a good rate consistently.        

Disease testing is another aspect. It can be very difficult to find someone who tests for the same diseases we do (CAE, CL, & Johnes). Some folks are more trustworthy than others, but at what point do you decide that it's worth the risk of getting an "untested" animal. Just about every dairy goat breeder tests for CAE, but not the other two diseases. I'm not wanting to turn this into a testing debate, just laying out some thoughts. 

I know of a breeder who sold an Oberhasli that scored either a 90 or 91. 
The breeder gave full disclosure that the doe cannot kid on her own and basically needs an epidural.
Someone snatched her up immediately because on paper she looks great. 
I can honestly say I would't do this.

Now obviously this is pretty rare.  

I am NOT trying to be argumentative here! Just laying out some thoughts


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> You can't independently, quantifiably evaluate parasite resistance, hardiness, kidding ease
> You can only go by what the person selling the goat says
> And you run into the whole " barn goggle" issue



Absolutely- you can't measure those things. That is why you deal with a breeder that you can trust. 
Yes, and some breeders don't have a clue what they are doing, what they have, how to evaluate their own stock.
Barn goggles is a term slung around often and it is real, I agree, but it is usually by people that don't know what they are looking at in a goat.

The issue with only going by the numbers is that some genetics just don't line up well and even though the LA's and the pedigree is awesome you can still have a train wreck. We know of many breeders that have experienced this a time or two and it set their program back by a few years... but they know that can happen. 

This is why you see many farms that buy "named farm" goats... high scoring LA's, starred etc... but then they don't know how to put the animals together and you see within 3 generations all that down the drain. 

We went to look at a goat once, told it was a slow growing goat a little small etc, but would be highly competitive in the ring and had it's dry leg already. They just needed to reduce numbers.
Went to see the goat.
Ummmm.... really.
That's why I don't go by numbers, wins, or any of it exclusively. 
No way would I ever have bought that goat. Some sucker looking for a name sure did though.

This past year there was a lot of chatter about appraisals. 
Different appraisers see things differently yet it is suppose to be all mathematical. I don't know. 
Goats that drop 5-10 points or jump 5-10 points in a year or whole herds that have always appraise in the range of 89-91 and suddenly getting 83-85... that leaves me scratching my head. 
It seemed like people were either really happy or really upset... 
This year one of the biggest complaints was the appraiser that marked goat after goat after goat with tilted chest wall.
Reminded me a bit of the stories of the appraiser that marked a whole bunch of goats as having twisted udders. Do you remember hearing about that? That was horrible. 

I do believe it has value. I still think it is a good tool, but a tool nonetheless. We will do LA when we can afford to... it is a good learning experience.


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## Bayleaf Meadows (Nov 18, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Nigerians are the hardiest of all breeds hands down, so this may not apply so much to them but I can say the more fru fru the goat it seems those other categories are very important.


So, SBC, what you really mean to say is that everyone should raise Nigerians?  Lol


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 18, 2017)

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> So, SBC, what you really mean to say is that everyone should raise Nigerians?  Lol


YES!


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 18, 2017)

I saw a farm advertise a "soaking wet buckling" sale
First freshening does kidding in November and December
"You are buying pedigree so what you see is what you get"
Once posted you have a week to pick up at the farm
You get an application for registration
You disbud, tattoo and vaccinate


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 18, 2017)

I saw that too…


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 18, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I saw that too…


X2

And the same person complains about the number of buck sales when they do the exact same thing...


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 18, 2017)

Somebody will probably end up with a real gem
Most probably will not


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## lalabugs (Nov 19, 2017)

Thank you all for this thread. I'm still learning what is good. Honey is registered. She has from my understanding good lines. Her udder needs improvement. We have gone back and forth on keeping/selling her. I am still learning what to look for. Everyone has an opinion on what is good to breed. I've talked to people who only go off of LA numbers, milk test, and lines. For someone who is new to goats trying to learn how to breed up. It really does get confusing! What IS good quality? Depending on who you talk to, you will get a wildly different response. 

Our main purpose having dairy goats is to have milk for our family. We got registered to get our children into showing. Out of our goats bred for next year Honeys kids are the only ones who can be registered. Also realized using the ADGA calculator to calculate inbreeding when pedigree is not 100% due to AGS registered goats. ADGA is not an accurate % of inbreeding. 

I downloaded a program called Kintraks. It's an animal breeding program. You enter all the information. On ADGA Honey is 4.93% inbred. Putting all of her pedigree into kintraks it shows she's actually 7.03% inbred. At this point I do not feel comfortable enough to keep any intact bucks out of our goats. I do not want to sell anyone a buck that would not help breed up the breed. Our unregistered goats I do not want to sell any bucks. Learning what to look for in an adult buck is hard enough for a new breeder. Let alone looking at a kid and deciding if he will be an improvement to your herd. All the local breeders will sell ALL bucks. How does that help new breeders learn what is and is not an animal to improve the breed?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 19, 2017)

I think retaining, using a buck on a selected number of does and waiting to see what they do is important.
Sometimes a buck can be not a whole lot to look at but does it do good things?
When we started out we bought registered bucks and we had unregistered does. When we got registered does the bucks had already been used on the unregistered does, this way we could see what they were doing.
Example-
Caleb - registered 18 m -24m buck  Not much to look at (plus he was real fuzzy here) but excellent rear legs, dairy length.
This pic is when we first got him- he was in kind of rough shape




Heidi- UNregistered doe- she produced alot of milk but very weak udder attachment - yet distance from vulva to top of udder arch was very good... her fore udder was very week, causing sag
This doe was sold.


Yet, look at what the buck did for the daughters-


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 19, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> I think retaining, using a buck on a selected number of does and waiting to see what they do is important.
> Sometimes a buck can be not a whole lot to look at but does it do good things?
> When we started out we bought registered bucks and we had unregistered does. When we got registered does the bucks had already been used on the unregistered does, this way we could see what they were doing.
> Example-
> ...


Very nice!


ETA: Is that the daughter of the previous doe?


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 19, 2017)

Yes.

First pic was of the buck "Caleb", second "Heidi", third was the Heidi/Caleb kid.


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## goatgurl (Nov 19, 2017)

logged in and saw this thread so you know I had to throw my two cents in.  I've raised goats for a lot of years and had registered goats, show goats for a long time.  I still have purebred animals for the most part but no longer register them.  some times I think I should but now that I no longer show I just don't want to deal with the aggravation and expense.  with all that said I agree that looking at numbers, both la and milk tests is important but that isn't the whole picture.   as @Southern by choice said you have to look at the whole picture.  the buck I am using almost got sold young because his kids are slow to mature, he is long and lanky and so are his kids, they don't really mature until 2-3 years old but when they do they are lovely, have nice udders and milk well.  I've had him for 7 years now and have only sold 1 buck from him and that was because the lady was desperate for a lamancha buck and she happened to call the day the buck was born.  I also kept a buck out of him this year simply because he is getting older and I wanted to make sure I was covered.  I just don't sell bucks.  yes my animals are nice but so are lots of others are too.   imo there are just way to many animals kept intact when they shouldn't be.  in the long run that is your name your putting out there and people who it matters to will remember whether the goat they got from you was good or not so much.  mediocre matters.   castrate those boys...  ok, quietly stepping of soap box now.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 19, 2017)

I will say far too many go off of names and scores but really can't look at a goat.
In a Nigerian Buck we pay very close attention to that front end. Way too many may be square on their feet but you need to know what else to look for.

One of our Lamancha does we brought in is NOT the best confirmation wise- she is steeper in the rump than she should be, her front end is good except for her shoulder assembly... hips are a bit wonky. So why do we have her?
I wanted her- it is as simple as that. The goat is rugged, no fru fru about her. Her genetics are great, scores are great, milkers are great... but she is NOT great. All her bucks will go to the freezer. Her does will hopefully be better than her because we use the bucks we use.
She should have a really nice udder and she should be a high producer. 

I make no bones about her faults, nor with any of our goats.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 19, 2017)

We are going to have a lot of babies this spring just like last year
I can't keep them to see what they all look like or what their daughters look like
We wethered most of them this year but we still have 2 bucklings to sell
I think for our farm since we have been participating in LA for 3 years and milk testing for 2 years that just offering bucks from our proven top does with the SGCH and GCH designation is best for us
I'm sure that a buckling outside of that criteria would make a great herdsire for some but I don't have the time to find out So next year just Zamia, Clarabelle, Rosie, and Taffy


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 19, 2017)

How much would you ask ?
Taffy x Zeus
Rosie X Vivaldi
Clarabelle X Big Brown
Zamia X Vivaldi


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 19, 2017)

I think what you are doing is smart.
If you have 20 buckling born, it would be crazy to sell all 20 as breeding bucks.
Obviously, as with any other farm, you are going to sell bucks from your top does.
You would be crazy to wether a C.B. buckling and sell a buck out of one of your "other" does who do not have the accomplishments (/not as nice). I don't think anyone is arguing and it is silly to go back and forth at this point.

I think you should be the one to price your animals.
If you are doing LA, milktest etc. than you should know their worth and charge what you think is reasonable. I don't think anyone on the forum knows your animals better than you (& Maurine) do, so you should be able to calculate that.

I don't think she is suggesting that others sell every buckling born as a breeding buck.
We would never do this. I am a huge advocate of castrating your bucks.
Look at your boy Rocky. You still use him and like him but as you said, he doesn't meet your own requirements but he has produced good kids and you like him.
Did anyone hear the story about that "National Ch get of sire" this year?
If you did, you know what story I'm talking about.

I think she is just saying that a score is not everything.
If you read my other post you will see we have goats from the top lamancha genetics.
Some of these Lamanchas have highest ever LA in their genetics.

BUT that is not the whole goat.
I think they are quite nice, but know the areas that are lacking.

As you progress in goats, you start to develop different goals and see things differently.
Example- This will be your first year of wethering all you bucks except out of the 4 does you mention.

I do not want this to be an argument. The back and forth is just starting to be silly.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 20, 2017)

Actually I have not been going back and forth with anyone
Just answering the OPs question as to what we are doing not responding to what anyone else is doing or saying.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 20, 2017)

Great


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2017)

Looking at a herdsire and deciding what should or shouldn't stay intact etc... If you can retain enough does from a particular buck and then you see what that buck does and you know what the doe is doing then your have a better idea of what the buck can do. When you see what you are looking for then that is a buck you may want to keep intact.

The pics from my earlier post show how improvement was made- that  same buck the following year was bred to that same doe.
This is a FF udder. different kid same parents.

Unfortunately the pic isn't great - as most goats about to be milked like to squat a bit and spread their legs out so it is easier to milk... so in this her back legs are spread way apart but you can still see the attachment is good- far superior to the dam's. The udder floor is higher, the attachment tighter, better medial, teats are long... although a bit flaring to outside... yet it is a FF udder. With more capacity from 2nd and 3rd udders the teats should sit a bit better.

 
Sadly the buck that improved these udders died from a heart issue. He had a heart issue when we bought him, we found out after buying him... What is worse is we never got to put him over any of our registered does. 
Unregistered goats are IMO still worth trying to make improvements on... doing your best to improve on what you have is not contingent on reg or unregisterd animals- you can learn so much.

The LA, Production stats, maybe  even show wins... ARE important. There is no discounting that. The animals doing well in those areas generally will be more expensive- understandably so. There is much that a breeder has put into those goats. I don't want it to come across that I don't think those things matter. They absolutely do.
However, the majority of goat owners are not doing those things, don't know how to look at those stats and many can not afford pricey bucks for a few backyard milkers. Yet they are going to need bucks to breed their does.


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## lalabugs (Nov 21, 2017)

I see what you're showing. Both does have great improvement because of the buck. 

If honey has any does, we plan to keep at least 1. We have not decided on Marshmallow. We will have to purchase a new buck for any does retained, as we only have scooby. He's the sire to all of the babies. Except pumpkin, her babies will be mini manchas. We have not decided on Pumpkins either.

Willow will not be staying, she's going to my sister. My kids hate her milk. They love Nigerian milk. We're really hoping that they will like the mini manchas milk. That will be a huge factor into what kids we will retain. 

I need to get pictures of the does udders once they kid. Honey has no fore udder attachment. She has a pocket. 

Here is honeys full pedigree. I had to do some researching and input in information from goats that are ags registered. I did not add any of the stars or anything, just the names so I could calculate when breeding her.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 21, 2017)

The Rosasharn goats are beautiful... love them   but we do not think the style will mesh with our type goat. The Rosasharn goats have a very locked in type.  I can't wait to see what you have! 

Something we have noticed on some of the well known lines are the capacious udders... I also notice that on many goats with these huge capacious udders the teats are below the hock. Capacious doesn't always mean production.... it can but not always. I don't like teats below the hock. 
I can't put pics up because they aren't my pics but sometimes these real full capacious udders don't always have the best attachments... I saw a  pic of a doe recently that scored a 90EEEV.. the pic was just at a normal fill time-she did not have that show fill udder ... no way, I couldn't believe it. I could put my whole foot between the vulva and the escutcheon. 
I often see side udder shots and rear, or both... but what about that foreudder? Like you mentioned ... that is important too.

I like high and tight. I like when you milk a goat and you go where is she storing all this milk?


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## Daxigait (Nov 23, 2017)

Do you guys have suggestions on resources for studying confirmation?  I need one with good descriptions and diagrams/pictures.  I am just beginning to learn.


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## lalabugs (Nov 23, 2017)

Honey produced 5 cups being milked twice a day as a 4F. I do not know what a Nigerian should produce, to be considered a good milker. Her milk is delicious though. She's also a super sweet goat, everyone is attached to her. 

I have seen some really horrible attachment. We went and looked at a Nubian. They were selling Dam and her quads. The dams udder was almost dragging the ground! It was horrible! 

I will post pictures in my kidding thread once she kids with udder pictures. Along with Willow & Marshmallow. I would love all thoughts on udders and how to improve.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 23, 2017)

lalabugs said:


> Honey produced 5 cups being milked twice a day as a 4F. I do not know what a Nigerian should produce, to be considered a good milker. Her milk is delicious though. She's also a super sweet goat, everyone is attached to her.
> 
> I have seen some really horrible attachment. We went and looked at a Nubian. They were selling Dam and her quads. The dams udder was almost dragging the ground! It was horrible!
> 
> I will post pictures in my kidding thread once she kids with udder pictures. Along with Willow & Marshmallow. I would love all thoughts on udders and how to improve.



Wonder if we should do another thread about udders and improvements. I know @Green Acres Farm  started this as herdsire qualifications- and it has taken a few turns... but good info anyway.  Whatcha think @Green Acres Farm


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 24, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Wonder if we should do another thread about udders and improvements. I know @Green Acres Farm  started this as herdsire qualifications- and it has taken a few turns... but good info anyway.  Whatcha think @Green Acres Farm


Go on ahead!


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 24, 2017)

@OneFineAcre, @Goat Whisperer, @Southern by choice, @babsbag do you have any nice udders you could use to demonstrate?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

Green Acres Farm said:


> @OneFineAcre, @Goat Whisperer, @Southern by choice, @babsbag do you have any nice udders you could use to demonstrate?


I was looking at more of what happens when... I am a big believer in breeding up and looking at the whole goat... so if I do the thread it will be the good & Bad... far too many only want to show perfection... but that doesn't help others understand what they can do.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2017)

All my udder pics are on my laptop which is off limits this weekend

I will post some next week


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> In a Nigerian Buck we pay very close attention to that front end. Way too many may be square on their feet but you need to know what else to look for .



Sorry I haven't had time to read through these posts entirely and I just caught this
What you said is true there is more to look at than being square on their feet 
But if the feet aren't square the front end can't be good it's not possible
And when looking at a kid if they aren't square when they are young its just going to get rougher when they get older.


That's why most judges line them up side by side and watches each individually walk towards them
If a judge doesn't do that they aren't a very good judge


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2017)

I don't even need to show you a pic of a goat to show what I'm talking about
Stand up and put your arms out straight in front of you
Now move your hands together in front of you
Feel how it tightens your shoulders
Now imagine being on all 4ers and walking like that and how much the shoulders move
That's what it's like when a goat stands with their feet together as opposed to square underneath them


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> Sorry I haven't had time to read through these posts entirely and I just caught this
> What you said is true there is more to look at than being square on their feet
> But if the feet aren't square the front end can't be good it's not possible
> And when looking at a kid if they aren't square when they are young its just going to get rougher when they get older.
> ...


Exactly



OneFineAcre said:


> I don't even need to show you a pic of a goat to show what I'm talking about
> Stand up and put your arms out straight in front of you
> Now move your hands together in front of you
> Feel how it tightens your shoulders
> ...



Yes, BUT you can have a goat set exactly square and yet still have an issue - I can't post pics of goats that aren't my animals but lots of Nigerians have the issue in the front- it is where the point of elbow is and the point of shoulder... more at the point of elbow yet it isn't exactly what one would call out at elbows.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2017)

Lots of goats have issues
None has ever gotten 100 eeee 
But if them feet are together them elbows are sticking out


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 24, 2017)

Have you ever noticed that when people are selling a goat and the post udder pics very few post a pic of the udder milked out ?
If a doe goes GC when she goes back out for best in show the judge wants to see the udder milked out but very few post pics of their doe milked out?
Actually its as important than a full udder so it seems odd to me


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> Have you ever noticed that when people are selling a goat and the post udder pics very few post a pic of the udder milked out ?
> If a doe goes GC when she goes back out for best in show the judge wants to see the udder milked out but very few post pics of their doe milked out?
> Actually its as important than a full udder so it seems odd to me



Yep! Had a big discussion on FB about this. I asked why no one doe this.LOL 
 Also I see many pics of side view udders, that look great 1/3,1/3,1/3 but no foreudder shots and some don't put up rear udder shots. I also like to see how a doe looks on a normal overnight fill.. not always a show fill.

Sometimes you see these really capacious udders but like OFA is saying, are they really producing or are they meaty? The other thing is I personally don't like teats that go below the hock. I like a high and tight udder... 
I think it is normal for one or two shots but I agree those other shots are important!
Same as feet and being square... any one can set a goat up to look square. 
Then you have the silly goats like my Raina- she is very square, yet she likes to criss cross and be silly- she acts like a dressage horse. 

I agree, there is no perfect goat... picking what is important to you and working up is something that takes time.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 24, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> Have you ever noticed that when people are selling a goat and the post udder pics very few post a pic of the udder milked out ?
> If a doe goes GC when she goes back out for best in show the judge wants to see the udder milked out but very few post pics of their doe milked out?
> Actually its as important than a full udder so it seems odd to me


I was just talking abut it this! 
Maybe this is something we should include 
I think we have only had a handful of people ask for those pics. 
Nobody seems the give it much thought- people seem to want pics of huge, full udders. 

This is important to us. Just about everyone of our does "milk out like a glove". 
I know some people just don't care. 
There are goats with meaty udders that can be a finished CH, but will never be a BIS doe because of it. 

When I see these huge capacious udders I often wonder how they milk out. 
Same thing when people post udder pics of a goat that is a week fresh- full of edema. 

Right now none of our goats have meaty udders. I was worried about CG and Clover since they were rather heavy as kids. But they milk out great, so that was a relief.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

@OneFineAcre  that is something I like about some of your does... the udder floor is high! I also like that you show by your milk records that those udders can milk! 
At a show those capacious udders are already picked and placed before that milk out yet they may not be the best udders when all things are considered.
Some of those huge udders that are real "capacious" aren't really producing what they look like they should.
You know Ruthie has a nice udder and great teats and teat placement- not capacious though- BUT that goat milks way more than what she looks like... When I milk her when GW is gone I am always thinking where the heck is she storing this milk!


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 25, 2017)

I just saw the first soaking wet buck kid posted
$200 and sold in 1 hour


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## babsbag (Nov 25, 2017)

I can post some pictures of horrible udders.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 28, 2017)

Can you put this on the udder thread?


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Can you put this on the udder thread?


Oops, thought this was that thread!


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 20, 2018)

This was a hot topic a little while back with the ADGA goat world a little while back, but I’m wondering what everyone’s thoughts on mandatory DNA testing for all bucks is?

Personally, I wouldn’t mind it as I’m already planning on DNA’ing all my bucks. I think the extra registration cost would help curb the sales of lesser quality bucks as registered herd sires and prove parentage from “oops” breedings. But I think there are some valid arguments for both sides.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 20, 2018)

I look for a strong, deep family.  I have found it better to have a average animal out of a deep strong family than an exceptional animal from a weak family.  

GCH are nice, but I put more stock in LA and milk production.  And, temperament is important, too.  Twitchy, high strung touchy animals pass on those traits.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 20, 2018)

Donna R. Raybon said:


> Twitchy, high strung touchy animals pass on those traits.


That describes 90% of my Nigerian herd. Lol.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 20, 2018)

Green Acres Farm said:


> That describes 90% of my Nigerian herd. Lol.



Seems like that is almost all Nigerians  and probably Alpines! 

So funny how many people come to see Nigerians and end up getting minis or lamanchas after they've been around them.  

I'll comment later on the subject.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 20, 2018)

It depends on the purpose. Why? I like that bucks who are collected have to have DNA on file.

The reality is that people will still cheat.
Unregistered goats will somehow end up in the ADGA herdbook.
Unfortunately I have seen this first hand.
From people in our “backyard” (NC). People that you thought would be ethical breeders.

We have had wonderful people needing good bucks but aren’t far enough into their breeding program to justify paying $800+ for a good buck.

You remember Lil’ Joe? How fantastic he was? He came from someone with a few goats in their backyard. No way he would have been DNA’d or registered.

If you want a CAE negative goat, buy from someone who tests for CAE. If you are worried about DNA typing, buy from someone who does that.
Something people have missed is that just because the goat is DNA typed, it doesn’t mean it is parentage verified.

I started small. Didn’t pay a whole lot for my first goats, but it gave me something to work with. Could we be pricing ourselves or others out? Why kick the ladder out from someone else?

Yes, the fee is not outrageous. But look at show fees. Blood testing fees. Feed and hay costs. Vet visits. It’s expensive. 

I see people who won’t bother to register kids, but are in favor of DNA typing. Sometimes I think it’s a popularity contest 

Many who have ADGA goats do not show. Do not participate in milktest. Do not do LA.
Some of us do. Why make it mandatory for those that have no interest in these programs?


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 20, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> We have had wonderful people needing good bucks but aren’t far enough into their breeding program to justify paying $800+ for a good buck.
> 
> You remember Lil’ Joe? How fantastic he was? He came from someone with a few goats in their backyard. No way he would have been DNA’d or registered.
> 
> Yes, the fee is not outrageous. But look at show fees. Blood testing fees. Feed and hay costs. Vet visits. It’s expensive.


Those are good points. 


One thing I see a LOT is bucks advertised as being from “CH lines, show lines, great milking lines” etc. because their sire’s grandam’s was a nice animal.  Especially coming from people who don’t participate in any ADGA programs, sometimes not even milking their goats. If you don’t do anything but breed your goats, you aren’t qualified to judge whether or not a buck is herdsire quality IMO. Newbies who don’t know any better think they are getting something fantastic because that’s what they are told, when they really aren’t getting anything near to what they think. The extra cost of registering a buck might encourage people to either sell without papers and maybe improve a grade herd, or wether to improve the breed overall by keeping only the best intact.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 20, 2018)

Green Acres Farm said:


> you aren’t qualified to judge whether or not a buck is herdsire quality IMO.


But where does one draw the line? At what point is one qualified? Why should I (or you) tell someone what they can or cannot do with their bucklings?
I am not disagreeing with you. I have had the same thoughts as well.

I don't like moonspots. If someone wants to buy moonspotted goats and breed for it, then it is their right to do so.
Why should I tell them how to raise and breed their animals? The market is swamped right now. Are people pushing for DNA typing so they have a better chance at selling their bucks? Hoping to have less competition? Go on FB, you have a huge range. People can have their choice on what they want to buy.

I don't like being forced into anything. Heck, I may go to ADGA Plus over the next few years and start typing some of my bucks. But it will be MY choice. Not something I am forced to do.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 21, 2018)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Those are good points.
> 
> 
> One thing I see a LOT is bucks advertised as being from “CH lines, show lines, great milking lines” etc. because their sire’s grandam’s was a nice animal.  Especially coming from people who don’t participate in any ADGA programs, sometimes not even milking their goats. If you don’t do anything but breed your goats, you aren’t qualified to judge whether or not a buck is herdsire quality IMO. Newbies who don’t know any better think they are getting something fantastic because that’s what they are told, when they really aren’t getting anything near to what they think. The extra cost of registering a buck might encourage people to either sell without papers and maybe improve a grade herd, or wether to improve the breed overall by keeping only the best intact.



I get it. We see it all the time. For does and bucks.
People have choices.  BUT it's their choice. 
I do think the statement about being qualified is very elitist. Who then is qualified?  What criteria is used to determine if that person is qualified?
Keep in mind it was dog breeders and their registry that have ruined many dog breeds. There are great dog breeders and those that were "so qualified" because of bells and whistles that we have entire useless health ridden breeds now.

Transfer that over.  Minimize the genetic gene pool by making it harder to register bucks and then lets see what happens. Personally I think it is all to silly and all to elitist.
The overwhelming majority of goat owners owning registered goats are not showing, on test, or do LA.
When refering to improving the breed... hmmm. Like the Lamancha? Where they are now being bred to be more like a Swiss breed and losing the character of the Lamancha? Getting bigger and bigger and longer and tubular? Is that improvement? The Lamancha is suppose to be a medium size breed, not huge like the swiss breeds.  What styles are popular in the show ring come and go. 


Goats are goats. You may have a great buck with all the bells and whistles and it not mesh with the doe lines being bred to. Is that a bad buck? Not necessarily. Genetics don't always line up.

GW is correct all the DNA will get you is the genetic markers for that goat. It verifies nothing.  Now, if you need to verify parentage then at least those markers are on file but you are also limited as closely related animals may not be ruled out. The parent verification is ruling out possible sires. I don't think many understand this. You also to truly verify do need the dam as well. 
That is all a slippery slope.
People will cheat. Will lie. Will do whatever they can if they are so inclined to.

This year on the FB groups it seemed like there was almost this contest of who was going to wether the most bucklings.  Whatever.

This breeding season our recorded grade doe had buck/doe twins. The goal was to wether the buckling as he can't be registered anyway. As he grew we thought wow he is really nice. Great legs, flatness of bone, great spacing of rib... just really nice... I wonder if a homestead that just needs to breed their does for milk would want him. A good home and at least it would be passing on something good. Listed him for $75.  Now keep in mind... his dam has had best udder 2x, (she is a FF) she will qualify for her star in all 3 categories. She has earned 2 milking legs. As a jr she went GCH and RCH but numbers were short by 1 so no restricted leg. If she would have had that she would be finished now.  He could have at least brought something to the homestead goat. Instead he was loaded into the back of a van and was dinner for a family. he was sold for $2 # on the hoof. $132.   He sure was a sweetie. His sire has an impeccable pedigree. You see the people that scream about only having registered stock has screamed this for so long now that people are leary of an animal that isn't registered... because this is what they were told. So... for those that are now out of time and can't find a goat to breed their does... missed out on a disease tested herd. CAE, CL, Johnes neg herd, with a nice buckling. 

I say all that to say newbies read alot of stuff and do get taken. Most get taken by thinking "it has such and such name in the pedigree" it must be good.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 21, 2018)

LA is the best!!!  And, while concept is borrowed from dairy cow, make no mistake the judges and breeders of the best of the best dairy GOATS hammered ADGA program out!!!

If you can not figure out why a V udder is not an E udder???  Ask appraiser and you will get a point by point explanation.  Sometimes it is as simple as doe is too young.

Also,  You might want to dig into pedigree research and see quite a few bucks that stamped E udder on daughters had momma with only V.

I have found it easier to improve udder generation to generation, but really hard to keep E udder.  Finding a buck that keeps E udder consistent is hard.  

With Nubians I keep to lines that proved consistent...High Caliber Marvin's Big Max,  Cadillac Piejar being my two favorite buck lines.  Being neighbors to Cobble'sValley and Foxwood helped.  And, I sure miss Patti Dean.  Willow Run genetics were deep.  Willow Run Pippin's Hesperos proved a great outcross buck.
    My current herd sire is Cobble's Valley Geneson Jeeves.  He goes back to my original doe on dam side, Simple Life Farm Kasey , as well as my first buck, Foxwood McCay's Doubled Up Max.  He is THE standard to which I measure all others!  Sweetest boy to ever draw breath and passed that on to daughters.


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