# Eloise is EXTREMELY hard to milk! I need help!



## glenolam (Apr 9, 2010)

I got Eloise, a 5 yr old nubian/alpine cross doe, with her son (who is a wether) a year ago with the intent of milking her and making goat milk soap.

A little background:  The prior year (2008) Eloise lost her kid right after birth.  Eloise's sister refused her kid and amazingly Eloise took on her neice/nephew (I can't recall what it was) as if it were her own kid.  The kid was eventually sold and everything went back to normal.  When she had Junior last year she was very protective of him, which is why they were sold as a pair.  (I have since become very good friends with Eloise's previous owner by the way.)  I took Eloise and Junior home when he was 8 weeks old, and tried to start milking right away, but she was very insistant that I don't touch her.  I assumed it was alot of stress going from the home she knew to mine and that she was making sure Junior got all of her milk.  I had Eloise's previous owner come to my house and help me milk her, which she was able to do, but I never was able to.

Eloise just kidded with twin does on Tuesday 4/6, and her bag and teats are completely full.  The two girls are definitely not nursing her dry, so I want to start getting her on a milking schedule.  She let me assist after the birth - I was allowed to pretty much do anything I wanted and helped the kids find the teats.  I even was allowed to milk her so there was no plug for the kids.

I put her on the stand on Wedensday, gave her grain and carrotts to entice her, but she kicked and jumped all around.  I didn't want to stress her out, so I let her off after trying for 10 minutes.  Last night I put her back on the stand and had to have my husband come out and hold her front leg up so she wouldn't have the stability to jump all around.  After a few minutes, she calmed down and while he held her leg up and petted her I milked 2 3/4 cups of milk from her as quickly as I possibly could.  She was quiet for most of the time - as soon as she started talking we let her down so we wouldn't stress her.

I have no idea what to do to make her know that the stand is my time to milk her and there's no way to get around it.  I'm nice to her, give her treats (our goats are very spoiled!) and even put the babies on the stand with me to show her that it's OK and it's milking time, but I don't want to have my husband hold her leg every time to milk.

What can I do to calm her down and let me milk her?!?  Her previous owner said she never had problems like this....

Here's a picture of her with her girls


----------



## ksalvagno (Apr 9, 2010)

Cute little goats. I don't have a lot of milking experience and recently bought a doe in milk that stands really nice for me. I would say for now to have your husband come out and hold her or else get hobbles and hobble her. I would hope in time she would calm down and just stand for you alone. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in with some other suggestions.

Maybe she recognizes your nervousness or apprehension or something and acts up. Maybe she is seeing who is boss or what she can get away with. I'm really not sure.

Do you have an actual milking stand? It makes a difference when you have their head held so they can't get away. I also used a mason (canning) jar so if she moved around, I wouldn't lose the milk and could move with her.


----------



## glenolam (Apr 9, 2010)

I have a metal milking stand, which I was so proud of when I purchased it, but now it's gotten no use!

The stand is actually behind me in the pic of me helping them nurse.  I keep it in the goat barn so she's familiar with it and it's not something foreign.

I also have a yr old doeling that I'm going to breed this year and start milking next year.

I try to calm myself before going in and milking her.  This is my first time milking anything on my own but I got plenty of practice at her previous owner's house.  I wanted to be sure I was doing it right before I did it at my house.

I tell you, it is pretty frustrating, to say the least, and I definitely don't want to make this stressfull for her when she's just kidded.  I constantly tell her her girls are OK (they are usually sleeping under the stand or under the haybale holder at this point) - I even put the girls in front of her so she can see they're OK.

I don't want to give up...yet!


----------



## Roll farms (Apr 9, 2010)

At the risk of sounding like a meanie-head....quit letting the goat be your boss.

As long as she sees that kicking, fussing, etc. will be tolerated, she will continue to do so.  Goats are a lot like dogs, you have to let them know what's acceptable and that there are boundaries...and punishment.

Spray her in the face w/ a spray bottle...pinch her ear...hobble her...find something that's not downright abusive that she dislikes and use it to make her stop showing her butt.

I've honestly never worried about a doe 'stressing' after kidding, so long as she and the kids are healthy / normal.   Mine get 1 week to shape up on the stand or they ship out...there have only been 2 (out of 40 or so) that I just couldn't train w/ patience and a firm hand...
Again, I'm not saying to beat her w/ a stick or anything, and it's not being 'mean' to let her know that her bad behavior is unacceptable.

Say it w/ me, "I AM THE BOSS"


----------



## freemotion (Apr 9, 2010)

The only way, besides what RF said, is to persist and get more proficient and confident yourself.  What you are experiencing is not that uncommon, apparently, for newbies!  Do a search on this site...there are other threads about milking and tears (ours, not the goat's!).  That the doe is good for her previous owner and not you tells me that you just need more experience.  You are doing fine, keep going!

I'd say, keep doing what you are doing, with your hubby's help.  You are fortunate in that you don't HAVE to milk her out.  You can use this time to learn and for her to get used to you and not worry about emptying her udder.

It took me a while to figure out what I was doing (besides letting my alpha doe be alpha over me) that was irritating her while I was attempting to milk.  Her single buckling got pneumonia and died, so I had to learn a lot quicker than I'd planned, and I had only books and the internet to help me.  I cried a lot!  I learned, eventually, that if I make sure to put NO downward pressure on the teat at all, she was much more comfortable.  Ask anyone who hasn't milked before to show you how to milk, and they will do a pulling motion with their hand.  Make sure you are not.  Notice that her kids push upwards and bump her udder when they nurse.

When you can milk a quart in about a minute, she won't have time to get fussy about it!  And don't worry that the twins aren't nursing her dry, it is ok.

Start working with that yearling's udder and behavior now....


----------



## ohiofarmgirl (Apr 9, 2010)

what Free and Roll said...and there is a great thread called "kicky milker" which is really helpful

and as silly as it sounds... Roll is dead on and her advice helped me tremendously.  say to yourself  "i AM the boss goat!" ... mostly i think it will come across in your body language and it will get easier. my doe was "making" me give her corn to stand there. not anymore! i AM the boss goat and baby you'll get corn when i decide!

when our 2nd doe got all hoppy-aroundy and stepped in the bucket for no reason last summer i took her food and hobble her. she did it twice. then stood there quietly. 

i'm not sure its mean... you just need to be the boss of all of them

good luck!


----------



## glenolam (Apr 9, 2010)

You both are so funny!  I don't think you are being mean at all.

I know I need to be more assertive and confident.  It's just getting difficult and I REALLY want to do this.  Eloise sure has a strong and persistant attitude.

I had to practically drag her up on the stand yesterday and then just held my hands on her hips for a while, slowly moving them towards her udder.  That's when I called the hubby in.  She was previously milked from behind (arms between her back legs) - should I continue with trying how she is used to being milked or should I just try my own way?

I'm already working with my doeling, except she and Eloise don't get along very well, Eloise just tolerates her and for the time being Eloise won't let Fudgie (the doeling) near her or the kids.  I'm going to continue working with Fudgie once the kids can spend more time outdoors.


----------



## glenolam (Apr 9, 2010)

OMG - the thread about kicky milker was absolutely hilarious!  I'm reading it at work and had to in bits and peices because I was laughing too much! 

I'm going to try the hobble - I already have the "hubby hobble" down to a science and my 5 yr old son is learning that tecnique quickly as well! 

Thanks for the help, tips and, most importantly, laughs!  I'll be sure to keep you updated on my progress.  It is funny how just when you feel all alone and that you're the only one who can't milk a fricken goat you get a whole herd of people with horror stories too!


----------



## freemotion (Apr 9, 2010)

I needed a good laugh so you inspired me to look that thread up....it was stinkin' funny!  So for all you lurkers, here it is:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2767&p=1


----------



## glenolam (Apr 9, 2010)

UPDATE!!!

I wouldn't exactly call it smooth, but it sure was successful!

As soon as I got home tonight I started saying "I *AM* the boss goat...I am *THE* boss goat...I am the *BOSS* goat!"

(Really I was like  saying Please Please Please let this work!)

I walked into the goat barn, told her how it was going to be, put her on the stand (I think she knew I meant business) and closed the stanchion.  I filled up the grain bucket and said "LISTEN.  I am the boss.  You will let me milk you."

She was looking at me like "what?"

So I gave her the grain and sat down next to her and tried to start milking.  She gave up quite a fight, and I had probably 8 oz in the bucket when she walloped a good one on my hand and I lost almost all of it.  So I told her again, "I am in charge and you WILL let me milk you!"  I pressed my shoulder against her front shoulder to hold her against the wall so she couldn't kick as easily (hubby is away with the son tonight so I had no help).  

I started singing songs to her to the tune of "I'm a little tea pot" - seems she liked that because next thing I knew she calmed down and I was milking her!  All by myself!  Had to do it one-handed but she let me switch between teats and within probably 5-10 min I walked out of there with 20 oz (for people like me that's 2 1/2 cups) of milk!!!  ALL BY MYSELF!!!

And I know I got more out of her than that because I was trying to milk as she kicked just so she could see that I meant business and alot ended up on me, the stand, her, the ground, the walls, etc!

Needless to say I am way too proud of myself!  After I stopped I gave her tons of hugs and kisses, let her finish eating and brushed her.  Then I got the best reward - her two girls romping all over me having a great time!

What a good start to the weekend!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 9, 2010)

way to go!  

I'm a professional groomer and used to train so whenever a client comes in with a matted dog and says "but she won't LET me brush her..." I just sigh on the inside.  What, you give your dog a choice?  I have to let them know that they have two choices: rearrange the power structure or have a nakey dog. 

You have the right attitude to be successful- great job!


----------



## freemotion (Apr 9, 2010)




----------



## ohiofarmgirl (Apr 9, 2010)

Great job! you ARE the boss goat! whooot!!!



it will get better each time! yay you!!!


----------



## Roll farms (Apr 9, 2010)

*applause*

Seee, you ARE the boss goat.  *woot woot*

On a side note, OFG, your inbox is full...


----------



## Mea (Apr 10, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I needed a good laugh so you inspired me to look that thread up....it was stinkin' funny!  So for all you lurkers, here it is:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2767&p=1


Oh my !!!  I laughed so hard, reading this last night, that i woke the dog... who then had to make certain that everything was alright !

  I agree wholeheartedly with the suggestions given on being "boss".  I believe that   " tentative "  is not a good  way to be with any sort of animal (and some humans).   nor am i suggesting that rushing blindly into a critters space is the way to go either.     Quiet confidence  ( even if one really does not Know what they are doing )  is a Good approach.  Just about all livestock  respond to that.

  My least favorite animals are First Fresheners !   But in time they do (usually) come around.    The first week is the worst !   Goaty fighting the 'step-up' to the milkstand  ( until they find out that Grain is up there too)....then trying to milk those itty-bitty teats !  (argh)... also trying to aim the milk Into the bucket rather than down my jeans ( not terribly successful)... trying to finish the job Before the grain runs out.... and last but not least... teaching them to pull their head Back from the stanchion and actually Turn around to exit the stand with out panicing and falling off.   Oh Yeah !!  We 'loves' First fresheners !!

  One tip that helped me a lot....   We also have the nice steel pail from TS that was mentioned in a previous post.  I love it.  But...   I have found that using a smaller plastic pail ( that is scrupulously cleaned after milking) to milk into, then dumping the milk into the steel pail has helped.  The sound  of milking into the smaller pail is 'softer' if that makes any sense and the does mind it less.      Also i had one doe, a heavy milker, who would start crouching and actually compress my wrists onto the edge of the bucket.   It Hurt !

  Good Luck to Glenolam.   Stick with it ... You will do Ok.


----------



## KinderKorner (Apr 10, 2010)

Good job! 

I want to say all of my does kicked and jumped at first. You just can't give up. One layed down everytime I touched her udder. And I would pull her back up over and over. 

You have to keep trying. I would hold a back leg out, then they can't buck as hard. After about a week of milking twice a day and struggling they figure out they can't get out of it. And they will calm down and stand nicely. 

Every once in a while they pick a foot up or wiggle. And I just say no, and pat their butt.  But for the most part they behave now. Although I am spoiled now and don't milk by hand as much. I use a maggiedans milker.


----------



## ohiofarmgirl (Apr 10, 2010)

here's hopin' for a good milking report this morning!

also Roll - yikes and thanks - got it cleaned up


----------



## glenolam (Apr 11, 2010)

Got 28 oz this time!  She still is putting up a stink, but I think we're on the right track!


----------



## freemotion (Apr 11, 2010)

Yeah!  Now don't get so excited that you forget to leave some for the kids!


----------



## glenolam (Apr 11, 2010)

Against what a lot of people/books say, I only milk once a day.  Both my husband and I work Mon-Fri so evening milkings are where I collect my rations 

She has a relatively large bag (well, what do I know, but to me it seems like she does) and I don't plan on emptying it completely until the twins are 8 wks old.

Right now I'm just trying to get in the swing of things so when the time comes I'll be able to empty her out in no time at all.


----------



## Mea (Apr 11, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Against what a lot of people/books say, I only milk once a day.  Both my husband and I work Mon-Fri so evening milkings are where I collect my rations
> 
> She has a relatively large bag (well, what do I know, but to me it seems like she does) and I don't plan on emptying it completely until the twins are 8 wks old.
> 
> Right now I'm just trying to get in the swing of things so when the time comes I'll be able to empty her out in no time at all.


Once a day milking is good.  The main thing is consistancy.   We have a doe that i milked thru for almost two years.  After the first eight months of milking, she was on once a day for the next13 months.  Worked out quite well.

  Sounds as tho You are working it out well.


----------



## glenolam (Apr 12, 2010)

Just another quick update for anyone who's checking.

Eloise and I are doing very well.  She still kicks, but settles down for a few minutes, eats, then tries to kick again.  I tell her no, she settles down again and we milk some more.  It's exciting!

Now if only she would let me use two hands.....


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 12, 2010)

Mea said:
			
		

> We have a doe that i milked thru for almost two years.  After the first eight months of milking, she was on once a day for the next13 months.  Worked out quite well.


Wow!  I had no idea lactation could persist for so long.  How common is this?


----------



## Mea (Apr 12, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Mea said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Extended lactations  are the combination of Someone wanting to milk a doe thru ...  and the Doe being willing to milk thru.

     I tried this many years ago with a doe that really was not much to look at... but the milk was the best tasting of all our goats at that time.  Rather than bring more not so great goats into the world, we tried milking thru. At that time i still used the 2x a day milking.
     This last time, i was in a position where i did not want to raise a bunch of kids, but did want some milk.  The doe was most willing to keep milking, a steady 2lbs a day, once a day no matter what the temperature.  She's a good girl .

  On another group, one of the members had a doe that they milked thru for five years.  That, in my mind, is truely the "Will to Milk"     I just don't know if 'i' could keep up my end of such a program.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm late to this thread because we just moved and have been without internet, but I just wanted to mention that I think Eloise is B-E-AUTIFUL!  I love the Bezoar coloring.  My bezoar mini-nubian is due to kid and day. I can't wait to see what her kiddos look like!  AND she is a first freshener, so I'm sure the milking will be...ahem...difficult.


----------



## Roll farms (Apr 17, 2010)

I am going to attempt to milk Penny through this year.  
She is a lovely goat and I adore her, but she has had problems kidding 2 years straight.  She is giving me a solid 5# of milk 1x a day, and doesn't appear to be slowing down at all.


----------



## Mea (Apr 17, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I am going to attempt to milk Penny through this year.
> She is a lovely goat and I adore her, but she has had problems kidding 2 years straight.  She is giving me a solid 5# of milk 1x a day, and doesn't appear to be slowing down at all.


A very good reason to 'milk thru'.  At least this way, there is some return for her upkeep, by continuing the milk.

   I can come up with reasons to keep just about Any of our goats.       But i also like to  "Challange" them to do an extended lactation.  In my 'little book of life rules'  there should be special recognition for does that can and Do milk thru.


----------



## glenolam (Apr 17, 2010)

Thanks for the compliment on Eloise!  She really is a beautiful doe - I do wish her girls got more of her coloring, but they got their colors from their dad.  The little brown one, Cara after Caramel, has blue eyes like her dad and the white one, Nilly after Vanilla, has brown eyes like mom.

Does anyone have difficulty milking when other goats are in the barn/stall?  My goats share one big room where the milking stand is as well as their hay bale feeders are since I don't have your classic horse barn.  When I started milking I kept the other two goats outside to feed, but last night it was raining so everyone ate inside.  I can't feed one goat at a time because the others will get in the way.

After a few minutes of reminding her son, Junior, where his feed bucket was and getting Fudgie, my other doe, back to hers they left Eloise alone and I ended up with less than 8 oz because Eloise kicked the bucket out of my hand several times.  I've threatened her with the hobble - guess I just have to go buy one.

Anyway - does anyone tie up their goats to feed?  I'm not sure how I feel about that, I don't see anything wrong with it, but I know it will be difficult until they learn not to pull...


----------



## Mea (Apr 17, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Anyway - does anyone tie up their goats to feed?  I'm not sure how I feel about that, I don't see anything wrong with it, but I know it will be difficult until they learn not to pull...


We have short chains with swivel clips on them.  Everyone gets clipped to 'Their' space during chores.  They Do know where their spot is, altho a couple pretend that they haven't a clue...Everytime... "What...?  Me Where ??..."

   The swivel clip is important as they Will twist around and w/o the swivel the chain can and will kink.

  This keeps down the grain theves from getting All the grain and allows us time to change water buckets and fill hay racks without the mass exodus of goats each time the gate is opened.

  So far they seem to learn to tolerate the clipping into place fairly easily... all have survived so far.     Oh and yes... they will still pull.... "Who knows there might just be a bit of someone else's feed
 if i can only streeeetch just a bit further...."


----------



## glenolam (Apr 17, 2010)

> "Who knows there might just be a bit of someone else's feed
> if i can only streeeetch just a bit further...."


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (May 5, 2010)

Resurrecting this old thread to say that I have started milking Oreo since her triplets have all gone to their new homes.  This is only our third day, but it still pretty much requires three people to get the job done, and I am not able to milk her out because it takes me SO LONG to do it.  If she didn't twist, kick, try to jump off the stanchion with her head still in there, etc., it COULD go a lot faster.

I'm hoping she settles down soon because her milk is pretty yummy.  I plan to milk her in the mornings, but right now it is taking an hour to get about a cup from her.  ugh.  She's a mini, though, so a liquid measuring cup really isn't too bad.

I tried a hobble, but the one I have won't get small enough to squeeze her tendons.  GRRR!  So, now we are down to me milking, my son petting her and talking "love" talk to her while she eats, and dear husband practically sitting on her and holding her legs still.  It's really quite a scene. lol.

Hoping it will get better...but I have my doubts.  Part is her, part is me.  I am new to milking and I'm sure it would go much better if I could just DO IT! lol.

Anyway, wanted to check and see how you and ELoise are getting along?


----------



## glenolam (May 5, 2010)

Thanks!

Since I haven't separated her and the twins, I'm getting just about 8 oz, sometimes less.  The kids are 4 wks, so in about another month or so I'm going to force a weaning by taping her teats each day after I milk.  That is, unless they miraculously wean themselves....Eloise's son from last year nursed until he was 8 mos old!  I don't have the space (yet!) to separate them and work full time, so once a day milking is where we're at.

I posted another thread about adding probios every day to her grain as she seems so much calmer and interested in her grain when I do, so for now I'm just sprinkling a little here and there since the little jar is $10!  I got a hobble from Hoeggar's the other day and have used it twice (but she's a bigger breed, mind you). Each time I've been able to practice milking with both hands!  The first time, she stood great for a while, then I think I didn't do it high enough so it ended up on the bend of her leg.  Once she was done with her grain and wanted no part she yelled out (I think) in pain as she tried to jump around. But the next day she was great, too, so I'm keeping with the hobbles.

My milk is for soap right now - I use it in coffee, cereal, etc (I don't drink milk straight anyway) but I can't convince the family to switch from 1% store milk yet.

I also have another yearling doe that isn't going to be bred until fall, so I'm getting her on the stand now and pretending.....she's kind of like "what the heck are you doing????"


----------

