# Electric fencing and kids (human)



## Mini-M Ranch

We have a bit of chain link fencing that we can tie in with the neighbor's chainlink, but it isn't enough to enclose the whole space, as I want to make sure the goaties have plenty of space to roam.  

The lot is rolling with lots of dips (besides me and DH) and depressions, so we were thinking of going with woven wire and wooden fence posts.  We thought of adding on hot line at the bottom and on at the top, but am concerned about my 4 and 5 year olds getting buzzed.  I'm not sure they will learn as fast as goats.


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## helmstead

Oooh yeah, they will...

Mine each have touched our 1.5 joule horse fence once...and never again.


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## wynedot55

ive been aroud hotwires all my life.an they do have a kick to them.an they could seriously hurt a 4 an 5yr old.so i would not use them around kids.


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## Farmer Kitty

My girls have grownup with electric fence surrounding our yard. I taught them from little on that the fence "bites" and will hurt if touched. We have never had an issue.


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## jhm47

The newer fence chargers send out a very fast, powerful jolt about every second or so.  They are not like the older chargers which sent out a long, drawn out charge for about a second, and then were off for a second.  

Believe me, your children will learn quickly, and the discomfort will be only a tiny fraction of a second.  I've been shocked dozens of times, while it's never pleasant, it's not dangerous.  

Just be very careful never to "pee" on a charged wire.  lol!


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## 2468herdsrgr8

It's a jolt but they wont touch it again....I have personally learned that but it took me twice and both times it involved water....one with my finger in the horses water trough and the other  hand put on the wire ...the other time dumping a bucket of water and then bending down and touching it with my big butt ! .....Like farmer Kitty says ....its all in the teaching that it " bites" ....I think everyone that has grown up on or around a farm has been jolted at one point in their life....


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## wynedot55

ive been jolted alot over the years.ive even grabbed aholt of the hotwire,an had sparks shoot out my elbows.been knocked on my belly a few times as well.


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## Farmer Kitty

wynedot55 said:
			
		

> ive been jolted alot over the years.ive even grabbed aholt of the hotwire,an had sparks shoot out my elbows.been knocked on my belly a few times as well.


That sounds like the old style fencers. 

I've been zapped a time or two by fencers. Usually, because I thought they were unplugged and they weren't. I no longer take anyone's word that they are unplugged and check it myself!


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## cw

did yall ever play the game of gabbing the person then the fence so it shocks them instead of you? is was one of our favorites growing up


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## wynedot55

yes kitty it was the old fencers that would pop the snott out of you.


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## wynedot55

no but we had a cousin that you could trick into peeing on the hotwire.an he would get a good jolt from it.


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## cw

lol  (as i hold myself imangining what that would feel like)(the volts jumpin around inside your  love stick)


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## freemotion

I would just make sure the kids were not exposed to the fence for the first time (human kids, that is) when the grass is wet and make sure they don't touch it with their heads.  That is too risky.  

Once they get that first jolt, they will never touch it again.

When I was a kid we would "test" the fence by holding a long grass blade against the wire and slowly inching it up until we could feel a faint jolt.  You can teach them to do this, too.  A four-year-old should be able to grasp this.  And they probably can't reach the wire anyways....unless they are inside the fence, then they are closely supervised anyways.....right?


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## Farmer Kitty

freemotion said:
			
		

> I would just make sure the kids were not exposed to the fence for the first time (human kids, that is) when the grass is wet and make sure they don't touch it with their heads.  That is too risky.
> 
> Once they get that first jolt, they will never touch it again.
> 
> When I was a kid we would "test" the fence by holding a long grass blade against the wire and slowly inching it up until we could feel a faint jolt.  You can teach them to do this, too.  A four-year-old should be able to grasp this.  And they probably can't reach the wire anyways....unless they are inside the fence, then they are closely supervised anyways.....right?


Why would you want to teach kids this? What purpose does it serve? Maybe it's because I'm super sensitive to the electricity but, I personally can't see teaching a kid to "test" the fence. They do make testers to do that with.

Kids can reach through woven fence to try to pet the animals inside. I'm assuming that is where the OP's concern lies as well as when inside with the animals. You can't always be right there to keep them from grabbing the fence. Hence the need to teach them that it will hurt.


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## freemotion

Because children are intelligent and can learn things, even 4 and 5 year olds.  There really is no need to jolt them hard to teach them about the fence, they are not animals.  Like all of us adults, they will accidently touch the fence eventually and get smacked.  But until then, they can be taught about it in a gentler way, and be taught some cool stuff about electricity and conduction.  

My dad was brought up on a working farm and milked four family cows by hand twice a day.  Then he went to Northeastern University to become an electrical engineer, and worked for a while at MIT testing rocket guidance systems for NASA.  So we kids got lots of lessons when we moved back to the rural area and had farm animals.  The most important one was to always hunger for knowledge.  

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to teach your kids some basic science.  The suggestion was made because it was fun and interesting and it left me with good memories.  We also had a fence tester to determine if the fencer was working properly.  The grass blades did not replace this.  

If the kids reach into a metal fence and touch the wire, they will be grounded and really get socked.  If the grass is wet and their heads are touching the fence, they can be seriously injured.  I think the grass blade technique will be a safe way to teach them without risk of injury.


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## Farmer Kitty

Ahhh, I see where you are coming from. Yes, kids are smart. Smart enough that just telling them something will hurt if they touch it will probably be enough without them touching it with or without the blade of grass. I know it was with my two and they were a lot younger. I still say it's not necessary but, it is a science experience that they could learn, depending on the children and if they are ready for it. Like I said, I'm extremely sensitive to electricity and feel these kinds of things are not necessary. If they are sensitive, like I am, then it could be like a non-sensitive person touching the fence directly.

Touching today's fencers will hurt but not seriously injure unless they have a medical condition that it would affect i.e. a heart condition.


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## Beekissed

> Smart enough that just telling them something will hurt if they touch it will probably be enough without them touching it with or without the blade of grass.


I beg to differ on that point.  Most inquisitive kids have to find out for themselves eventually.  Oh, they may listen to you while you are standing there, but the moment your back is turned, they just have to see for themselves!    At least, with boys its like that, I don't know about little girls.  

I think the blade of grass thingy is how most country kids try it on for size....  I know I did!


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## Mini-M Ranch

Okay, I'm not so much worried that they will just go about willy-nilly touching the fence.  If I tell them it bites and not to touch it, they will try not to.

I am talking about accidentally touching the fence when we are visiting the goats, or when they are trying to open the gate, etc.  Yes, they would be supervized, but I still can not anticipate their every move.  My 4 year old is a firm believer that our animals are to be loved and petted (she even pets our rooster) and I am sure she will forget and try to reach through the fence.

Of course, the safety of my human kids is of the utmost importance.  However, I will have a responsibility to keep my goats safe as well.  Considering that our neighbors have labradors, I need to keep the goats as secure as possible.  The dogs are actually very sweet and don't even both my cat, but that doesn't mean that they will always behave with such good manners.

Would the fence still be effective if I just turn it off whenever we are outside and back on when we go in?


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## username taken

Mini-M Ranch said:
			
		

> Would the fence still be effective if I just turn it off whenever we are outside and back on when we go in?


yes, that would be fine, and put your mind at ease too, I'll bet


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## 2468herdsrgr8

username taken said:
			
		

> Mini-M Ranch said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would the fence still be effective if I just turn it off whenever we are outside and back on when we go in?
> 
> 
> 
> yes, that would be fine, and put your mind at ease too, I'll bet
Click to expand...

Totally agree ! Gee whiz we do that all the time when we have young ones over here...!!!!   Just remember to put it back on


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## username taken

2468herdsrgr8 said:
			
		

> Just remember to put it back on


Very important!


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## Mini-M Ranch

username taken said:
			
		

> 2468herdsrgr8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember to put it back on
> 
> 
> 
> Very important!
Click to expand...

Oh, dear...something else for my tiny brain to remember...


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## Farmer Kitty

username taken said:
			
		

> 2468herdsrgr8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember to put it back on
> 
> 
> 
> Very important!
Click to expand...

Yes, very important. They don't work if not plugged back in.




			
				Beekissed said:
			
		

> Smart enough that just telling them something will hurt if they touch it will probably be enough without them touching it with or without the blade of grass.
> 
> 
> 
> I beg to differ on that point.  Most inquisitive kids have to find out for themselves eventually.  Oh, they may listen to you while you are standing there, but the moment your back is turned, they just have to see for themselves!    At least, with boys its like that, I don't know about little girls.
> 
> I think the blade of grass thingy is how most country kids try it on for size....  I know I did!
Click to expand...

With young kids, unless someone shows them the blade of grass trick, are they really apt to think of it themselves? No. If someone shows it to them, a probability. With the fencer we have, I would have known. They would have screamed loud enough to wake the dead. It's a strong fencer as it covers a lot of territory and believe me, it BITES!


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## freemotion

I read about a small child actually being KILLED by a modern fencer, the child's head touched the wire when the child was well-grounded on wet grass.   Extremely rare situation, but why risk it?

Not every child learns by simply being told.  You know your own kids.

I don't let young children open gates or doors around animals.  It creates an unsafe situation for both.  Unless, of course, I am so close I am touching the child and can block the animals with my body or scoop the child up.

Creating safety for children is always my first concern and motivation.   No, you can't control everything, but if something bad happens, at least you can know you did everything in your power to prevent it.

I have spent thousands of hours teaching kids to be safe around animals, as a riding instructor and farm manager/trainer/teacher for a wealthy family with young children.  Sorry if I come across as itchy-b, but I will always chime in on child safety issues when I can!


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## Farmer Kitty

freemotion, you didn't come across as itchy-b. I still can not figure out why anyone who is concerned about child saftey would teach them to touch it with grass. It is cruel! Maybe it's just me because of my sensitivity to it but, I would never harm a child and to me that is harming them. I've inadvertently touched via grass and it hurt. 


BTW-While we are on the subject of children's saftey around electric fences, if a child grabs a hold of the fence and doesn't let go and keeps getting zapped. Grab them. Be ready to receive the jolt yourself but the child will usually let go then and be safe once again. It's the person at the end of the chain that gets the jolt. That is why when you grab them you get it and they can then let go.


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## Farmer Kitty

> I read about a small child actually being KILLED by a modern fencer, the child's head touched the wire when the child was well-grounded on wet grass.   Extremely rare situation, but why risk it?


That probably falls into a health issue situation. But, it does show why they need to be taught not to be near the fence.

I've had other kids over that all I've had to do was tell them that the fence will bite and they leave it alone. Of course, there's always those who you tell not to do something and they will (my brother comes to mind).


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## freemotion

FK, I am also ultra-sensitive to it, the zap will jump the wire and get me long before I touch it, even on a very dry day at about an inch away!  But when you use a REALLY long piece of a flat, broad grass such as a footlong leaf from a spear of timothy, you can touch the end to the wire and get NO zap, then move up a centimeter at a time until you feel the faintest zap.  It only hurts if you move closer and closer and hold the grass very tightly.  That way the kid can experience the electricity in a way that they can control without it even hurting.  But the first little buzz usually startles them into jumping and dropping the grass, even though they then have to admit that it didn't really hurt.  The bold ones will pick up the grass again and experiment to see just how much they can take, and the sensitive ones will leave it alone forevermore!


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## Farmer Kitty

freemotion said:
			
		

> FK, I am also ultra-sensitive to it, the zap will jump the wire and get me long before I touch it, even on a very dry day at about an inch away!  But when you use a REALLY long piece of a flat, broad grass such as a footlong leaf from a spear of timothy, you can touch the end to the wire and get NO zap, then move up a centimeter at a time until you feel the faintest zap.  It only hurts if you move closer and closer and hold the grass very tightly.  That way the kid can experience the electricity in a way that they can control without it even hurting.  But the first little buzz usually startles them into jumping and dropping the grass, even though they then have to admit that it didn't really hurt.  The bold ones will pick up the grass again and experiment to see just how much they can take, and the sensitive ones will leave it alone forevermore!


Uh, maybe no zap for you but, I would feel it. I've felt the currents on electrical stuff when I've been told that there's no way I should be able to. It's not fun.


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## mully

My son at age 11 was told not to "play" with the electric fence because it would bite him.  We had a long conversation about it and I run a 50 mile fencer on about a mile of wire so it will hurt. Few days later he cane in all scared and said he touched the fence, when I asked him why he replied to see what would happen ..he saw alright, never touched the fence again...There is an old Chinese proverb that I like " Children that can't hear must feel" Maybe your girls will not be so inquisitive as to touch the fence.


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## freemotion

FK, I hear ya.  I was at the Museum of Science in Boston some years ago and I put my hands on one of those glass tube things with the "lightening" electricity that follows your hands....and I got a jolt that went straight to my heart, hard, that scared the $*&%^ out of me....I had to go sit down for a while.  I was a young adult, and should've reported it, but for some strange reason I felt foolish so I said nothing, just my family knew.  The family members I was with had no trouble with the exhibit.  Glass should not conduct electricity....thick glass, too.


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## lilhill

I was one of those kids that, when told something would hurt, I had to check it out for myself.  I mean, what did adults know anyway.  :/


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## cmjust0

freemotion said:
			
		

> I read about a small child actually being KILLED by a modern fencer, the child's head touched the wire when the child was well-grounded on wet grass.   Extremely rare situation, but why risk it?


I'd like to see a link to such a story, if you would..  I googled around to see if I could come up with anything and found two stories..

One was from Texas where a little girl was killed by an "electric fence" that was literally just a bare wire out of a 120v/20a wall socket..  That would kill anybody, and the guy who put it up should be punished by having it shoved up his rectum and plugged in -- IMHO..

The second was from South Africa where a 4yo tried to chew through an electric fence to get into the factory where his mother worked...  They said the fence was "designed to deliver a non-lethal shock," but that it was erected to ward of 2-legged intruders....  My guess is that it wasn't your typical TSC buzzbox, but I could be wrong.

Other than that...I didn't find anything.


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## freemotion

I don't remember where I read it, but I was shocked (pun intended!  )  I was researching fencers when I found the article.  I do remember it seemed reliable.  It was a matter of all things coming together just right....or just wrong, I should say.  Not the normal circumstances.  The child was very young, the grass was wet, the kid touched the fence with his/her head, forehead I think.  

Keep looking, let us know if you find it.....


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## Beekissed

Wet grass and bare feet sure do amp up the bite, I can tell you this!  Ouch!   

Love this little cow, BTW.....  

And this one......  :bun

and, of course, this one.....


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## Farmer Kitty

Oh boy do they ever! Or at least the amount you get.


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## jhm47

In my job as an EMT, we occasionally get called to people who have been tased.  One guy who was particularly beligerent was tased 4 times.  His blood pressure was extraordinarily high, but he was pretty well "tased out".  The cops said that these tasers put out 50,000 volts.  Stops them in their tracks though.


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## cmjust0

jhm said:
			
		

> The cops said that these tasers put out 50,000 volts.


A fence really only needs a few thousand volts to be effective..  Personally, I like to keep mine running 5,500V at a minimum -- enough to peg a cheapo 5-light tester -- though my experience has been that most "real world" electric fences aren't often that hot.

Point being...a taser puts out 15 or more 50kV pulses per second.  My fence puts out one 5.5kV (or so) pulse per second..  Even though they're much more aggressive, tasers rarely kill people...I just can't see an electric livestock fence killing anyone short of some sort of malfunction.

Put it this way...I've seen 25lb goat kids stick their wet noses directly to it while standing chest deep in wet grass, and all they ever do is go BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!! and run the other way......well, except for the dumb ones that freak and run _through_ it, then stand on the other side and scream because they got seperated from mama.


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## Andrew C.

The problem with small children and electric fence's, is that a sall child has a high likelyhood of touching the fence with it's head which would put a shock through the childs brain maybe, probably not likely too kill with a single shock but the chance is there for some kind of neurological damage, or heaven forbid if the child became entangled in the fence and was shocked repetedly who knows. If my kids were young I would not allow them near an electric fence at all, even supervised, thats my opinion. 

I havn't been shocked through the head yet, don't want to either, wet grass and bare feet with my small fence give's me muscle pain afterwards, a well insulated and grounded electric fence as they should be "hurts".

Regards

PS the path of current from human head to ground is markedly different from a four legged animal.


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## cmjust0

Andrew C. said:
			
		

> ...probably not likely too kill with a single shock but the chance is there for some kind of neurological damage, or heaven forbid if the child became entangled in the fence and was shocked repetedly who knows


If electric fences could cause neurological damage or death in small children, I doubt they'd be UL listed and sold at Lowe's and TSC..  Underwriters Laboratories tests things for fire and shock hazard, specifically..

That's not to say they couldn't malfunction and hurt someone badly, but the same could be said for a lamp or laptop or cellphone or anything else that runs on electricity.



			
				ac said:
			
		

> PS the path of current from human head to ground is markedly different from a four legged animal.


How is it different?  I'd actually say that it's remarkably similar...charger to head to foot, then through the earth back to the charger.  Doesn't really matter if it's a cow or sheep or goat or horse or human.

I've seen goat kids weighing less than 20lbs get an 6,500V jolt right though the nose...they go "BAAH" and run away...then go right back to eating.


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## Andrew C.

> How is it different?  I'd actually say that it's remarkably similar...charger to head to foot, then through the earth back to the charger.  Doesn't really matter if it's a cow or sheep or goat or horse or human.
> 
> I've seen goat kids weighing less than 20lbs get an 6,500V jolt right though the nose...they go "BAAH" and run away...then go right back to eating.


I have no proof of any possibility of neurological damage, but I have drawn a simple picture to show what I mean. 

A goat will usually investigate things with thier nose, hence the current would go from nose to hooves, where as if a  child was to be shocked on the head, the child would most likely touch it with the top of the head.

 I have drawn the locations of the brain spinal chord and heart in each as closely as I know in blue, the current path in red, as you can see if a goat touches the fence with it's nose the current would not pass through its brain, brainstem, spinal chord or heart. I see my goats touch the fence with thier nose mainly the first time.

On the other hand if a child or any human for that matter touches the fence with the head the current path would pass through the brain and possibly the brain stem and the heart.







I am definately no expert but thats how I see it. As I wrote "maybe neurological damage" It would be very difficult to know if any subtle neuro damage was done to a goat such as learning difficulties. A goat dosn't need to learn to read and write.  Better to safe than sorry.


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## cmjust0

I dunno...looks pretty speculative to me.

The real question here is whether or not +/- 6KV with practically zero amperage pulsed for a fraction of a second can impart lasting neurological damage..  

I know it imparts psychological damage, because if it didn't, I'd go home and try it.  Problem is, I've been in the fence before and it's not something I wish to do ever again.

Or...actually...that's not a problem -- indeed, that's the goal!


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## kimmyh

I guess it is possible to do brain damage. I have seen many children shocked by a hot wire, most of them by touching the wire even after being told not too. None of them has suffered permanent damage to anything other than their pride.


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## rebelcowboysnb

Its not an issue. The brain can take way more than that. The hart is more of an Issue an for it to get zapped it would have to zap them in the chest an they would have to be grounded somehow in the middle of the back. Electricity does not like to go in to the body it tries to follow the skin around it. (AED 101)

On a side note, I think every boy I know including me peed on one at least once as a kid.


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## Andrew C.

> Electricity does not like to go in to the body it tries to follow the skin around it.


I have heard that too, but how then does the fence induce a quick and strong muscle contraction ? 

For it to induce a muscle contraction, surely it must go deeper than the skin. If your skin is wet yes, electricity will always follow the path of least resistance. Again I am no expert thats for sure and I don't mind to be wrong either.

 If somebody is shocked repeatedly and continuously they will become unconsious then die if not removed from the fence. Would they become unconsious from the problems caused to the heart or brain ?


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## cmjust0

Statement:



			
				ac said:
			
		

> If somebody is shocked repeatedly and continuously they will become unconsious then die if not removed from the fence.


Question:



			
				ac said:
			
		

> Would they become unconsious from the problems caused to the heart or brain ?


You just posed a question based on your own statement, though the statement isn't something that's universally agreed upon..  It's kinda like saying "The sky is neon green.  Is that a result of man's influence, or is it naturally that color?"

Here's the thing...  Where electric fencers are concerned, the words "repeatedly" and "continuously" are diametrically opposed.  Old fencers used to shock continuously, whereas new fencers will shock repeatedly in a pulse..  There can be no "and" there.

I wouldn't argue too much that if someone were shocked continuously by an electric fence, they may become unconscious and die, depending on the strength of the fence...  That is, afterall, why they don't make those fencers anymore.

However, I'm just not convinced that a repeated pulse shock would kill you.  It might make you wish you were dead, but _kill_ you?  I'd need to see some evidence....


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## Andrew C.

> Where electric fencers are concerned, the words "repeatedly" and "continuously" are diametrically opposed.  Old fencers used to shock continuously, whereas new fencers will shock repeatedly in a pulse..  There can be no "and" there.


I agree I worded it wrong, I meant shocked repetedly for a long period as in, entangled in the fence.

I copied and pasted the quote from the linked page. Visit the link for the full safety document.

You may need to copy and paste the web address, the link won't work for me.

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/21412/ElectricFence_202331_web.pdf 



> In most cases, such contact results in a relatively harmless shock, and
> usually the force of the first shock triggers awareness of the electric fence
> so that contact is broken and other shocks do not follow.
> However, there is a risk of serious injury or even death if you receive
> multiple shocks over a long period (minutes to hours rather than
> seconds).
> Entrapment and being rendered unconscious while in contact with an
> electric fence are two situations that can cause serious injury or death.
> Physical entrapment can occur if you:
> become entangled in the fence (electrified barbed wires pose a higher
> risk of this and must not be used),
> are trapped between an electric wire and a physical barrier such as a
> water trough, a building or another part of the fence.


I don't want to seem argumentitive and I did consider the contradiction of terms you pointed out, but I couldn't think of how to put it at the time.:/


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## cmjust0

Ok, fair enough.    

Here's a working link to the document , if anyone wants to read it.


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## username taken

Andrew C. said:
			
		

> How is it different?  I'd actually say that it's remarkably similar...charger to head to foot, then through the earth back to the charger.  Doesn't really matter if it's a cow or sheep or goat or horse or human.
> 
> I've seen goat kids weighing less than 20lbs get an 6,500V jolt right though the nose...they go "BAAH" and run away...then go right back to eating.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no proof of any possibility of neurological damage, but I have drawn a simple picture to show what I mean.
> 
> A goat will usually investigate things with thier nose, hence the current would go from nose to hooves, where as if a  child was to be shocked on the head, the child would most likely touch it with the top of the head.
> 
> I have drawn the locations of the brain spinal chord and heart in each as closely as I know in blue, the current path in red, as you can see if a goat touches the fence with it's nose the current would not pass through its brain, brainstem, spinal chord or heart. I see my goats touch the fence with thier nose mainly the first time.
> 
> On the other hand if a child or any human for that matter touches the fence with the head the current path would pass through the brain and possibly the brain stem and the heart.
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/1016_current_path.jpg
> 
> I am definately no expert but thats how I see it. As I wrote "maybe neurological damage" It would be very difficult to know if any subtle neuro damage was done to a goat such as learning difficulties. A goat dosn't need to learn to read and write.  Better to safe than sorry.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but this made me giggle. 

Anyone who has small children, and watches them for a few minutes, knows the child is more likely to reach out and grab/touch the fence with their hand first, rather than their forehead.


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## Bil

About girls being curious about electric fences, the statistics show that 66% are curious and 33% are not.  

I have 3 daughters.  The oldest and youngest "just had to try it out" to see what it felt like.  Our middle daughter took our word for it.  

That's our scientific study.  

Bil


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## chandasue

freemotion said:
			
		

> I read about a small child actually being KILLED by a modern fencer, the child's head touched the wire when the child was well-grounded on wet grass.   Extremely rare situation, but why risk it?


I actually know someone whose child died from a new electric fence just a couple years ago. He was 3 years old I believe at the time. They found him face down under the fence. It appeared that he tried to climb under the fence and the wire zapped right across the top of his head. Scared the doo-doo out of me and I won't have electric fencing on our property until my kid is much older. Not worth the risk. Just my opinion though...


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