# Herd Testing



## PattiXmas (Aug 24, 2009)

My daughter has 2 Nubian does.  Currently they are 6 months old and way too young to breed.  I am looking at possibly breeding them next fall, but I want to do this right.  What tests do people normally run on their goats to ensure that they are "safe"?  What type of precautions do I need to take with our does to make sure they are exposed to any diseases, before, during and after breeding.  

Any advise would help - we just want to be ready for things when the time comes and we want our girls safe and healthy  .


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## cmjust0 (Aug 24, 2009)

Not sure if I understand the question...  Are you planning to buy a buck and want to know what he should be tested for?  Or are you planning to take the girls somewhere for a breeding, or perhaps borrow/lease a buck to bring in with your herd during breeding season?


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## helmstead (Aug 24, 2009)

Most breeders that offer stud services expect CAE testing, at minimum.  Often, you need negative TB, Johnnes, CL, Scrapie and a general statement of good health as well.

You should expect the same prudence from the buck owner also.

Generally no goat under 6 mos is tested (it's just not accurate), so you're just at the age to start, altho I would wait until closer to breeding time.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 24, 2009)

I heard that the goats should be 2 years old before CL and Johnnes are accurate tests. Is this true? I want to test my goats as well when they are 6 months old.


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## PattiXmas (Aug 24, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Most breeders that offer stud services expect CAE testing, at minimum.  Often, you need negative TB, Johnnes, CL, Scrapie and a general statement of good health as well.
> 
> You should expect the same prudence from the buck owner also.
> 
> Generally no goat under 6 mos is tested (it's just not accurate), so you're just at the age to start, altho I would wait until closer to breeding time.


Thanks  .  Now I just need to see if my vet does these tests or if I will have to go to Michigan State University for these.  We don't plan on breeding the girls until next  fall, but I like to have things in order and a plan.  We are attempting to go at this to improve upon the Nubians, not to breed any bad qualities into the breed.


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## PattiXmas (Aug 24, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Not sure if I understand the question...  Are you planning to buy a buck and want to know what he should be tested for?  Or are you planning to take the girls somewhere for a breeding, or perhaps borrow/lease a buck to bring in with your herd during breeding season?


Planning on taking the girls somewhere.  Hubby says no bucks -  he's not fond of their hygiene


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## cmjust0 (Aug 24, 2009)

Yeah, me either...but we keep bucks anyway.  

Might not be a bad idea to start getting yourself lined up for next fall's breeding pretty soon..  Dunno how it is in your area, but around here, folks willing to do outbreedings on dairy goats are few and far between...  There happens to be a lot of goat disease around here like CL, due mostly to the 'churn' in the countless meat goat herds.  Goats are coming and going all the time, carrying who knows what both ways.

For instance...I'd FREAK OUT if ever I saw a CL knot come up on one of my goats, whereas a lot of the meat breeders around here might just put it in a back lot until it pops and scabs over, then send it on to the sale barn to be the next guy or gal's problem.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 24, 2009)

I would test for CL, Johne's and CAE.
I would expect that any buck you would have your service from would be over 2 years old and should test appropriately.
You can start your testing now and repeat every 6 months until they are 2.


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## ()relics (Aug 24, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> For instance...I'd FREAK OUT if ever I saw a CL knot come up on one of my goats, whereas a lot of the meat breeders around here might just put it in a back lot until it pops and scabs over, then send it on to the sale barn to be the next guy or gal's problem.


apparently your state doesn't enforce the Premise ID laws...Try that here and an animal comes up "dirty", They trace the animal back to your farm and You are shut down...anytime you move any animal it is supposed to be identified with your premise ID...at least here.


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## bheila (Aug 25, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I heard that the goats should be 2 years old before CL and Johnnes are accurate tests. Is this true? I want to test my goats as well when they are 6 months old.


With my tons of research I've had to do this last week because I had a doe test positive for Johne's, the recommended age is 18 months and older for the tests to be more accurate.  There is so much about Johne's I didn't know


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## cmjust0 (Aug 25, 2009)

()relics said:
			
		

> apparently your state doesn't enforce the Premise ID laws...Try that here and an animal comes up "dirty", They trace the animal back to your farm and You are shut down...anytime you move any animal it is supposed to be identified with your premise ID...at least here.


Shut down?...for a CL knot?  

If it was hoof and mouth or some other _reportable_ disease, sure...but a CL knot?  

Sorry, but...I kinda doubt anybody's getting shut down over a CL knot.

I wish they'd shut people down over CL knots, frankly, but there's so much of it around that I doubt it's ever going to happen.


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## PattiXmas (Aug 25, 2009)

I know of a few people here in Michigan that had gotten a wether from someone and that wether came down with CL.  Instead of notifying anyone, they just threw the goat in an auction and passed it on down the road.  I am trying to avoid having any problems, as I wouldn't want to breed an animal and spread the crap.


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## ()relics (Aug 25, 2009)

if you knowingly transport any sick animal you are in violation of the law...if you sell any animal and it is discovered that it has some undisclosed illness/disease, the buyer can report you to the USDA they will back trace your Premise ID number and they will pay you a visit...it has even been done when a trace of a legal medication was found but the animal was sold without the buyers knowledge of the previous dose of antibiotic/medicine/whatever...If you haven't read your states ID laws you better get a copy and start reading....


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## PattiXmas (Aug 25, 2009)

()relics said:
			
		

> if you knowingly transport any sick animal you are in violation of the law...if you sell any animal and it is discovered that it has some undisclosed illness/disease, the buyer can report you to the USDA they will back trace your Premise ID number and they will pay you a visit...it has even been done when a trace of a legal medication was found but the animal was sold without the buyers knowledge of the previous dose of antibiotic/medicine/whatever...If you haven't read your states ID laws you better get a copy and start reading....


See, I don't want to breed/sell/transport sick animals.  I am too attached to my "pets" and want them all in the best health.  It is good to know about the other though, as I was shocked when I "overheard" the conversation last year that this person would want to subject another farm to what they had just been subjected to.


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## ()relics (Aug 26, 2009)

When it comes to business, livestock, sometimes morals go out the window....Not being able to sell that sick wether affects the bottom line....So it is taken it to the sale barn trying to at least minimize the loss...This is why the ID laws were put into place...You and I would be considered responsible animal breeders/keepers....but now we are subject to the law put into place to control the irresponsible....thats always the way it goes....


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## cmjust0 (Aug 26, 2009)

()relics said:
			
		

> if you knowingly transport any sick animal you are in violation of the law...


So, if one of my goats gets sick and needs to go to the vet, I have to break the law to do that?

Forgive me, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.



			
				relics said:
			
		

> if you sell any animal and it is discovered that it has some undisclosed illness/disease, the buyer can report you to the USDA they will back trace your Premise ID number and they will pay you a visit...


If you're talking about a reportable disease like goat pox, Johne's, or hoof-and-mouth, then yeah...they'll pay the seller's farm a visit and probably slaughter everything in sight.  

Of course, they'll slaughter everything on your farm, too.  Not exactly a win/win.

If, however, you're talking about a disease like CL or soremouth or something like that, they're not going to do squat about it.  Reason being, those aren't reportable diseases.  If you buy a goat and it pops a big CL knot a few weeks later, that's just your problem..



			
				relics said:
			
		

> it has even been done when a trace of a legal medication was found but the animal was sold without the buyers knowledge of the previous dose of antibiotic/medicine/whatever...


Do you have a link to such a story?  Not saying it didn't happen, but I'd like to know more of the circumstances before I form an opinion..



			
				relics said:
			
		

> If you haven't read your states ID laws you better get a copy and start reading....


My state ID laws, where they pertain to goats, state that a goat must have a unique ID to be sold at a livestock market.  That ID can either be a state-issued scrapie tag or a registration tattoo.

If someone sells a goat private treaty to a neighbor, though...oh well.  No rules on that, as near as I can tell.

In fact, I think your home state of Indiana is one of just a handful in the nation that have enforced mandatory NAIS premises registration so far..  

Doesn't sound like it's very popular, huh?


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## FlightsofFancy (Aug 27, 2009)

bheila said:
			
		

> ksalvagno said:
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I would love to know more about your research. When I went for my State acreditation Ga only asked for TB, Brucelosis, CAE, CL and Scrapie. The State Vet said the Johnes tests are not accurate enough to warrent them and there are many false possitives. Usually a Goat with Johnnes is visiably sick. What do you think? PM me if you like. 
So sorry about your goat!!!


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## helmstead (Aug 27, 2009)

Blood testing for Johnnes is terribly inaccurate...fecal testing is best but is also hit and miss (they have to be shedding the thing for it to show up and it does not constantly shed, usually).  Fecal testing is arduous because it must be cultured and can take a couple months.  

No, they're not always symptomatic.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 28, 2009)

Then is it even worth it to test for Johnnes? If it is worth it, at what age should you start?


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## helmstead (Aug 28, 2009)

Well hopefully Bheila will chime back in - that was the extent of what I know...and bless her heart I'm sure she knows a LOT about it right now.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 28, 2009)

On the NMGA site, I have an article up about Johnes. There is a TON of info on the article. Take a look there. IT focuses on the disease in goats(not cattle).

http://www.nmga.net/healthdiseaseinformation.htm

If you have a herd and you want it to be proven free, it does take a number of years for the tests to prove that the herd is clean. Your looking at 5 years of negative results in a closed herd!

A goat can be born with the disease which can lay dormant in the goat for 5 years before the goat will ever shed it or test positive.
It is a rather difficult and devastating disease.

If the goat is shedding, chances are ,the goat will test positive either by blood or by stool sample through your vet.


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## bheila (Aug 28, 2009)

Sorry I wasn't around to see some of the posts.  I'll try to get some of the links I have about Johne's later tonight.  I've been talking with a breeder who dealt with Johne's who's been very informative too. It's a horrible thing to have to deal with


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## bheila (Aug 29, 2009)

Here are only a couple of the links I have about Johne's...
http://www.johnes.org/cgi-bin/ksearchgoats/ksearch.cgi?terms=Diagnosis
http://www.saanendoah.com/johnes_SG.html

It's disgusting that I'm having to deal with Johne's but I have to look at it as a learning experience  I thank god that I was smart enough to keep the new goats in quarantine away from my existing herd.  When I got the positive Johne's result I instantly went to work researching what it is and how to deal with it, obviously there is NO cure.  Then I discovered how inaccurate the testing results can be.  Not only is dealing with Johne's stressful but not knowing if you can trust the test results is even more frustrating.  I stopped my husband at the last second before he put the doe down so that we could do more tests on her.  We'll see how they turn out.....I know it's risky keeping a doe that has tested positive with Johne's but I couldn't sleep if we had put her down and not done the other tests.  

Even though her sisters tested negative I've kept them all together.  Chances are they all have it or they don't.


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## ()relics (Aug 30, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> ()relics said:
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Unfortunately the small producer/4H'ers/showmen/conscientious breeders suffer because of the unscrupulous practices of the big operators and the "people that just don't care"....TYPICAL....


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