# Holland Lop Color Help Plz.



## bunnyperson (Jun 15, 2012)

I purchased a blue doe from a breeder that was closing his doors. She had been bred to a black tort male. There are 5 babies! Two I know their colors (black and sable point). The other 3 are torts. However, one is darker than the other two. I'm curious if anyone can help me figure out if they are Black torts or Blue torts. Also, because the mother and father both carry the sable point gene as they produced a sable point kit. Does this mean his brothers and sister carry the gene too? 
I have named them EWOK 1 2 and 3 EWOK two is the Darkest and EWOK 3 is the lighest.  Since I'm new a user I can't post the pictures D;


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## pennylove (Jun 15, 2012)

Can you upload pictures to tinypic.com or photobucket.com and post the links? We can take a look that way.


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## bunnyperson (Jun 15, 2012)

I will try agian.  Ewok 1 






Ewok 2 





Ewok 3






 It worked  thank you for the advice. Sorry for large images >.<


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## pennylove (Jun 15, 2012)

I can see why you would be confused--they're very lightly colored for a black tort and a bit dark for a blue tort! The middle and bottom look like black torts to me. The top one seems a bit lighter, but I think it's mostly from the direct sunlight in the photo? Based on these pictures, I would say they are all black torts. Do they all have brown eyes? A blue tort should have gray eyes.

God, they're cute though! Makes me wish I raised lops: )


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## bunnyperson (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, as far as the lighting goes. The pictures were all taken at the same time of day at close to the same spot on the top of the cage. Their eyes look brown to me. However, I'm confused about that because I read that "blues" should have a greyish eye as well, and their mother's pedigree says she is blue but her eyes look brown like the babies. What would be the best lighting to take pictures to better show their color differences?

*edit* Took a few group shots and some face shots still outdoors but it's not high noon like the last set. However, Photobucket is not letting me upload them will try agian in the morning


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## Bunnylady (Jun 15, 2012)

Blue rabbits are supposed to have gray eyes - brown eyes are a disqualification. I don't know how it works, but I do know that there is something running around that causes brown eyes on a blue (dilute) rabbit; I have seen it in both Holland Lops and Fuzzy Lops. I have seen blue torts with brown eyes, as well. 

There is no single gene that causes Sable Point. Sable Point is aaB_cchlcD_ee. Blue is aaB_C_ddE_, Black Tort is aaB_C_D_ee.  Sable Point could be thought of as a combination of Siamese Sable and Tort in the same rabbit. A Siamese Sable has a shaded gene/light chinchilla gene (cchl) and either a Ruby-eyed White (c) or a Himi (ch) at the C locus. The father of this litter is a tort (ee), so you know that all of his offspring had to get a non-extension gene (e) from him. The doe must be carrying non-extension as well, since 4 of her babies (3 torts and a Sable Point) inherited it from her. Both of the parents are expressing a full-color gene at the C locus, though each is carrying something more recessive, since they have produced a Sable Point. Without a pedigree, we can't be sure whether the Shaded gene (cchl) came from the doe, or the buck, but whichever one it came from, the other is carrying either REW (c) or Himi (ch). All,  of the Sable Point's siblings has a 100% chance of carrying non-extension (3 of them got non-extension from both of their parents). Each of the Sable Point's siblings has a 25% chance of having inherited a Shaded gene, and a 25% chance of having the REW or Himi gene, whichever is involved here. Obviously, none of them got both the Shaded and the REW, or they would be Siamese Sable or Sable Point, too!


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## bunnyperson (Jun 17, 2012)

Here is a group shot of them, and this is a link to the photo bucket album with all pictures I have of them. http://s1058.photobucket.com/albums/t418/Creativelops/









Thanks Bunnylady for trying to explain that to me. The bunny genetics confuses me. 
Heres a little more on their pedigrees: 






                                                                    Sire Tortoise

                                         Black                                                              Tortoise

                       Tort                                Brkn Black                       Tort                           Rew

        brkn Tort         Black         Brkn Black      Black           Tort         Tort       Sable Point    Sable Point 



                                                                     Dam Blue
                                       Tort - Blue                                                     Self Chin Seal- Black

                           Tort                    Tort- Blue                              Steel Black                                                        Seal
            Tort- Blue       Tort          Tort         Brkn Tort            Brkn Black     Chincilla- Black             Siamese Sable           Seal


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## Bunnylady (Jun 17, 2012)

Ok, here's what you know about your doe:

Blue is a self color, self is the most recessive in its series, so at the A locus (which is where you have Agouti (A), Tan(at), or Self(a) pattern to choose from) she only has self genes (aa)

Blue is a black-based color. Black(B) is dominant to Chocolate(b). There aren't any Chocolate-based colors on her pedigree, so she probably isn't carrying chocolate, but you can't be sure, so we'll just say she's B_  

There are a total of 5 (some say 6) possibilities in the C series. A rabbit can't have more than 2 (since it only gets one from each parent). Blue is full-color, so we know she has one full-color(C) gene in the C series. That came from her Blue Tort parent, by the way. Her other parent could have given her either Chin (cchd) or Shaded(cchl). Since she has a Sable-Point(shaded) baby, we know she has the shaded gene. So she's Ccchl at the C locus.

Blue is dilute(d), which is recessive to full-color(D), so we know she's dd at the D locus

Blue is a full extension(E) color There is that puzzling word _steel_ a couple of generations back. If you do indeed have steel(Es) going on here, it might be a bit hard to track, because it would look like full extension on a self. It could get a bit weird if you ever breed animals of these lines to Agoutis, but we'll assume it's the more usual full-extension gene (E) that you're dealing with. One parent is a Tort, which is non-extension(e), so we know she has one of those, so she's Ee (or possibly Ese) for the E locus


This is the buck:

aaB_CcD_ee

Once again, there aren't any Chocolates on the pedigree, but we can't absolutely rule that out. Likewise, there aren't any dilutes showing on the pedigree, but that doesn't mean that the recessive dilute gene isn't present, either. There is a REW grandparent, since you have that shaded baby, you know the buck got the REW gene(c) from its parent on that side.

Whether you have Blue Torts or Black Torts is still up for debate. Nothing says that the buck _doesn't_ have a dilute gene,  just as nothing says that he does. Baby colors can be significantly lighter or darker than the adult color, particularly when you are dealing with Torts. Actually, Tort is a frustrating color generally, because it seems like every time the rabbit molts, it comes in with a slightly different shade. 


They are a cute bunch, congrats!


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## bunnyperson (Jun 17, 2012)

Thank you for breaking that down for me.


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