# WWYD? Questions about line breeding, a sterile ewe etc etc.



## NachoFarm (Jun 5, 2013)

So pardon my three part question in this post but feel free to chime in on one or all three.

We have two ram lambs from a different ram than the one we currently own and we would like to choose one to keep our blood mixed up a little.  Is it as simple as choosing the one who was born bigger, grew faster and is currently bigger than his brother?  

We have a ewe that we purchased last year and we weren't aware that she hadn't lambed her first season.  She's been in with the ram, who is the father of a set of our twins, since December and from what we can tell at this point, she isn't bred this season either.  Do we get rid of her?  Give her another chance? Is there any inexpensive way to determine what's wrong?  WWYD?

As for line breeding, I know that it's an extremely complicated topic but since I still have a lot of reading to do I just would like an opinion on our current situation.  I'll try to not make this a messy sentence.  Our two ewes are mother and daughter, they were both bred by their sires this season (that wasn't the plan but it's how it worked out), the one sire is gone and we have two ram lambs from him and we own the other who sired a ram lamb and ewe lamb.  I've now confused myself.    I think if I say anything else I'll confuse others as well.  So we have a bunch of half sibling lambs?  I think. Who do we breed to who next year?


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## BrownSheep (Jun 5, 2013)

As for ram selection that pretty much what I would do. Take into consideration their temperaments as well. 

I believe you have hair sheep, correct. If she is two and hasn't bred she most likely has an issue. If she's a will breed I might give her one more year.

Your line breeding a little confusing to me, but in complicated situations I keep the ewes and go buy a new ram.  My key in line breeding is  A+ B= C .it is okay to breed A back to C but I wouldnt breed A to that offspring.


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## NachoFarm (Jun 5, 2013)

BrownSheep said:
			
		

> I believe you have hair sheep, correct. If she is two and hasn't bred she most likely has an issue. If she's a wool breed I might give her one more year.


No we have wool sheep, a Finn/Gotland cross.
Now what could be the situation in that she wouldn't breed for two seasons but would breed her third though?  



			
				BrownSheep said:
			
		

> Your line breeding a little confusing to me, but in complicated situations I keep the ewes and go buy a new ram.  My key in line breeding is  A+ B= C .it is okay to breed A back to C but I wouldnt breed A to that offspring.


Hmm, I confused myself too.  What about half siblings?


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## BrownSheep (Jun 5, 2013)

First season being too young. Second if you got her too late in the season. Dcember typically isn't too late though. 


I would be hesitant to breed half siblings but I've done so before. Just remember what ever good and bad traits you have will be amplified. If you could I would just purchase a ram you can use for more than one season.


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## purplequeenvt (Jun 5, 2013)

#1 - In your case, since you have wool sheep, it isn't as easy as picking the biggest, fastest growing lamb. Those are good things to tak into consideration, but you also need to look at which ram is better in terms of fleece quality. I'd say pick out the lamb with the best fleece first and then compare them to see which one has the best growth, build, etc.... If their growth/build is similar (i.e. one is not seriously stunted or has an obvious structural fault) then pick the best fleeced ram even if he is a little smaller.

#2 - I wouldn't personally keep a ewe that skipped 2 breeding seasons, but that is really up to you. There could be a very good reason that she hasn't gotten bred yet. If Gotland/Finns are anything like Shetlands, they have a very short breeding season (October-December).

#3 - Linebreeding is also a personal choice. I know that there are some people that get very put out if you mention it, but there are also lots of people that do it with great success. I'm using a ram this year onto Shetlands that is pretty closely related to most of them. I'm using him because he has some genetics (pattern and spots) that I want to strengthen in my lambs. 

I don't think that I would do a half-sibling breeding unless I had now other options, but that's just me and I have access to more options where I am. You should talk to SheepGirl. I think she did a mother/son or half-sibling breeding recently.


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## Four Winds Ranch (Jun 5, 2013)

I would choose the ram lamb that grows the fastest, has the nicest build for his breeding, and has a mild temperment! Of course taking into concederation all the things like bad feet, crooked legs, wool quality!
I have wool sheep, and if one doesn't catch the first year, I give her another chance! If she
 doesn't lamb the second year, she is out a here! Losing profit and off setting production!


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## NachoFarm (Jun 5, 2013)

The whole line breeding issue from what I've read is necessary when dealing with a small flock and/or rare breed and other factors.  Right now everybody in the barn, with the exception of the sterile ewe of course, are related.   With the rams we have, we have no way of breeding unless we do half siblings or sire to daughter.  Our one ewe who wasn't sired by the ram we have like I said before, is our other ewes mother so any offspring from that will be half siblings with everyone.  The breeder we got the ewes from has offered us a replacement ewe or an unrelated ram lamb, we were to add to the flock does it make more sense to take the new ewe or the new ram?


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## purplequeenvt (Jun 5, 2013)

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> The whole line breeding issue from what I've read is necessary when dealing with a small flock and/or rare breed and other factors.  Right now everybody in the barn, with the exception of the sterile ewe of course, are related.   With the rams we have, we have no way of breeding unless we do half siblings or sire to daughter.  Our one ewe who wasn't sired by the ram we have like I said before, is our other ewes mother so any offspring from that will be half siblings with everyone.  The breeder we got the ewes from has offered us a replacement ewe or an unrelated ram lamb, we were to add to the flock does it make more sense to take the new ewe or the new ram?


I would get the new ram.


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## BrownSheep (Jun 5, 2013)

I would take the new ram as well


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## NachoFarm (Jun 8, 2013)

BrownSheep said:
			
		

> I would take the new ram as well


But then wouldn't I run into the same problem again because all the offspring from the new ram would be half siblings?


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## BrownSheep (Jun 8, 2013)

Yes but you can easily, and safely, breed him to his daughters then  switch out again.

My actuall breed situation involve two rams, their offspring, and combos there of.


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## n8ivetxn (Oct 31, 2013)

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> So pardon my three part question in this post but feel free to chime in on one or all three.
> 
> We have two ram lambs from a different ram than the one we currently own and we would like to choose one to keep our blood mixed up a little.  Is it as simple as choosing the one who was born bigger, grew faster and is currently bigger than his brother?
> 
> ...


1. So, you currently (or did!) have 2 half siblings and an unrelated ram? Good start! Keep all 3 for an excellent line-breeding program. - Having 3 lines keeps your gene pool from potential "bottle necks"

2. If she doesn't conceive, cull her. (in case you didn't realize it, the ewe produces twins, not the ram. However, the ram determines the sex of the lambs.)

3. Line breeding isn't that complicated, especially if you have a small flock, which is usually where it is used. I would suggest a couple of books by Phil Sponenberg (a genetics guy), A Conservation Breeding Handbook, and Managing Breeds for a Secure Future." Good reads! You start with 3 small, individual blood lines and after they get up in numbers a little you can rotate rams and manage the groups as one flock, while maintaining a separate bachelor pad.

Best of luck!


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## bonbean01 (Oct 31, 2013)

I have hair sheep...so one factor I take into consideration is how well the rams shed off...guess you have decide who has better wool?  I also look at body condition, and FEET!!!  Have one ewe that has bad feet and since our flock is a small one, and she has beautiful lambs and so far has not passed that trait on, we keep her and deal with her feet trimming often.

As for a maybe sterile ewe...we did have one...tried 2 different rams...then got shots from the vet in case she had a cyst on her ovaries, and would also cause her to cycle ...she had a shot for 5 days and was in with the 3rd ram we tried...she never cycled and then we had to give up on her ever having lambs...hard call to make as she was so sweet...but we did.

My understanding has been that you can breed for two years safely...call it inbreeding or linebreeding or as in our case...small flock with only 1 ram.  We switch out our ram every 2 years to not go past that.  Never had a 2 headed or 6 legged lamb yet.  Our sheep are not registered or anything and this would be different for people with papered sheep.

Good luck and...those shots from the vet were not expensive...under twenty dollars and certainly worth it...for that one last try!


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## CritterZone (Oct 31, 2013)

I would buy a new ram and I would cull the ewe.  As for next year, yes, you are going to run into the same issue since all of your ewes are so closely related.  There are a couple of ways you can handle that.  1.  You can choose to sell off all offspring and purchase replacement ewes to increase your herd.  2.  Next year you could buy a second ram and split the herd (this is actually what we did this year because last year one ram fathered all of our lambs, except for two ewes that we bought bred, who are also his half-sisters).


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## n8ivetxn (Nov 6, 2013)

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Our two ewes are mother and daughter, they were both bred by their sires this season (that wasn't the plan but it's how it worked out), the one sire is gone and we have two ram lambs from him and we own the other who sired a ram lamb and ewe lamb.  I've now confused myself.    I think if I say anything else I'll confuse others as well.  So we have a bunch of half sibling lambs?  I think. Who do we breed to who next year?


I'll try to answer just this one! Maybe that'll help some...

A mother and daughter, both bred back to their respective sires = ok, nothing wrong with that.
Ewe number "1" has 2 ram lambs from sire "A."
Ewe number "2" has a ram lamb and a ewe lamb from sire "B."

The sire of the 2 ram lambs is now out of the picture. - Choose the best ram lamb from the 2 and use him to breed ewe 1, 2 and the ewe lamb, when she's able. You might want to consider keeping his brother as a back up, in case something happens. - Cull Sire B and his ram lamb offspring.

Think of your animals as "parts of a whole" instead of "individuals." - When you have a lamb, it is 50% of the sire, and 50% of the dam. When you have 1/2 siblings (they share the same sire), each of them is 50% sire, but the dams provide the bulk of genetic diversity.
A + B = AB, A + C = AC. So, now you breed AB + AC = A/B/C

Is that clear as mud?!


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