# Farrier hitting horse?!?!?



## RayofHopeFarms (May 7, 2012)

I had a farrier come out to trim our horses hooves and he seems kinda cocky when he got out of the truck which I didn't like so much but just ignored it, my sisters horse went first becuase she is the most calm and she picks up her hooves very easily, well the first thing this guy did was walk over and jerk on moonshines lead and make her jump, this upset me but I gave him another chance he then proceeded to pick up her hoof, which she did no problem but when he started to trim her hoof it scared her and she went backwards and he turned around with the tool and hit her very hard in the stomach with the nippers which absolutely floored me! I was walking towards him when he picked her hoof up again and started again, she did the same thing and he hit her a few more times with the tool and then kicked her hoof where she had a small sore and made it bleed really bad and made it worse. I told him he was done because now she is bleeding and panicking. My sister got her back to the pen and got her calmed down, he told me I needed to be more firm with her so she would stop that. I wasn't mad that he was firm with her just that he didnt need to hit her with the tool, open handed I may not have freaked out as bad but with the tool that was totally uncalled for! It just seemed to me like he had a very bad attitide and now everytime you go to touch my sisters horse she freaks a little bit. Has anyone else had this problem??? 

Thank you!


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## marlowmanor (May 7, 2012)

I'm not a horse person but that sounds like animal abuse to me.


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## BarredRockMomma (May 7, 2012)

My neighbor is my farrier, he is also the one who raised the mare. He only get physical with the horses if they bite or kick him. Other than that he talks to them like misbehaving children.


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## 77Herford (May 7, 2012)

That is very unprofessional behavior and should not be tolerated.  Horses can handle a much tougher slap than any of us could but using his tool isn't the right way to go about it.  Now the mare may associate that tool with pain and not want her hooves worked with at all.  
In my area Farriers are getting harder to come by but I have learned to do a decent job of it.  Talking to them and being patient usually works better in the end, though it may take longer.

His over all attitude from the beginning didn't sound good and the horse probably picked up on it right away.  Jerking on her lead rope is just stupid as it gets them on edge.  I would work with her right away and make sure she's ok with people around her feet again.  Make her know its ok and that she'll be safe.

I hope you find a good farrier.


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## secuono (May 7, 2012)

I don't even hit my horses when they kick out or nip, I either yank the lead, yell at them or run them round until they burn some energy and stop. 
If I was you in that moment, I would of kicked him in the butt and told him to get lost. 
A farrier/trimmer needs to be a calm person who works with the horse, not a hot headed idiot.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 7, 2012)

You did the right thing.  He had to go.


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## goodhors (May 7, 2012)

Having been a Farrier, I am always a bit on their side.  However his first approach to the horse
sounds like he WANTED a fight.  Someone with skill, had done a bunch of horses, would
more likely have just sauntered over to the standing horse, tried picking up a leg, to see
how horse would react.  Then depending on how OWNER managed the leadrope, how 
horse stood, would dictate if Farrier needed to do anything for self-protection or for discipline
to encourage better behaviour.

Owners and handlers of horses put up with a LOT of bad behaviour.  What is OK by them, 
is not going to let Farrier get horse trimmed or shod without some handler work.

Does sound like THAT Farrier was overboard in his reactions.  You are not saying what YOU 
folks were doing to get horse to stand quiet.  Did you just tie horse and "let him have at
trimming her"?  Were you holding the lead and correcting her pulling back?  There are
a variety of ways this session could have gone, good or bad.  As a horse owner, I definately
would NOT have let him whale on her with tools.  But I have a lot of experience, know faster
what I am seeing, than the family horse owners would notice.  He does sound mean, but not
hearing his side, she could have scared him several ways, in her pulling away, so he reacted badly.

Having already given him the "heave ho" off the place, you won't be using him again.  I would 
now evaluate my horse's behaviour.  Was she truly unsafe to handle?  Could she have hurt him?
Would I want to trim her myself, acting the way she does right now?  If you can't tell, maybe
another person knowledgable about horses, could come over to help evaluate your horse's 
for behaviour to get their feet done.  Will horse stand square, quietly (no biting, lipping, pulling on the 
Farrier), while you HOLD THEM for the work?  Does horse quietly give their hoof, front or hind,
hold it up without leaning all their weight on you?  Horse is HEAVY to hold up!!  And will horse
hold that leg up for a time, not just a few seconds?

There is a lot more to having a horse "good" for hoof work, than just picking up his hoof for 5 seconds.
Owner MUST work with their animals to keep training current, so horse KNOWS how to behave 
well for hoof care.  Do you have any men, family or friends, who will come pick up and hold all 
the hooves so horse will handle for strangers or male people, not just females.  Not cranking 
the legs outward or hiking them REALLY HIGH under the horse, can be another problem with
larger farriers, people with body soreness, who don't get down and under the animal.  My old 
mare was ALWAYS bad if you tried to pull her leg outward, just VERY TIGHT MUSCLED and it
was PAINFUL.  She would fight that EVERY TIME.  If you just picked her legs straight up and stayed
under her belly, no issues at all.  As she got elderly, the hinds were almost toe on the ground, 
you just didn't lift it to trim off the hoof wall, kept it low when you brought it forward to smooth
off the hoof edges with a rasp.  Those hocks just didn't fold like they used to.  She was good, if 
you kept hoof way down.  Lot of horses have hidden issues, or don't like their joints cranked out, 
so a Farrier needs to be able to work on them and not cause pain during the process.

I would be doing an evaluation of my horse training levels, for hoof work.  Should be looking at
hooves for dirt, rocks, nasty stuff almost daily in this wetter weather.  Horses improve their behaviour
with practice.  Can you put the horse front hoof between your knees for cleaning, some gentle 
tapping with a small hammer on the bottom?  Rest a hind hoof over my thigh to clean and tap on?
If you don't have physical issues, then horse needs training so you can get the hooves up, held, cleaned
and tapped on for practice.  Needs to be longer than a minute, by the clock!  May seem long for you
holding hoof, but really is only 20 seconds!  Work up to a couple minutes with a clock, for each hoof.
Horse learns with practice, so it needs to learn a couple minutes holding own leg up won't hurt him!

Maybe your next Farrier visit will then go smoother for horses, you AND Farrier.  Maybe your horse
was really perfect before he got it stirred up, so a bit of practice will calm her down for that next
Farrier visit.  Jump in FASTER if problems start, to stop any escalation of bad behaviour on horse OR 
Farrier part. 

Lastly, be willing to PAY for a good Farrier's services.  Don't just call the cheapest one you hear about.
We have good Farriers who CAN manage a nervous or scared horse, without turning it into a war.  They
leave horse with a good experience, he is less reactive the 2nd visit.  Just don't expect the Farrier to 
be the horse trainer, breaking out never-handled  horses to being trimmed.  Not his job!!  A Farrier
who has been in business for a LONG time, is usually pretty skilled.  You pay for the JOB, not how long
it took him to do the job.  

We have local Farriers, experienced over many years, that can do an 
EXCELLENT trim on all the hooves in 10 minutes or less.  Horse is so surprised they stand WELL, not
bored or trying to get away in that SHORT time on each hoof.  WORTH the money for that good kind 
of work, great experience for a horse.  AND you can pay off the Farrier, saddle up, go riding as long
as you want, horse is NEVER sore or lame on that new trim or shoes.


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## terrilhb (May 7, 2012)

I say it is animal abuse. To hit it with a tool and then to kick it where it already had a sore and make it bleed. Uncalled for. That is abuse. I would turn him in. I am glad you sent him packing. I am sure a ferriers job is very hard. But I am quite sure someone else would have handled it like a professional and a human being. Totally uncalled for.


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## cluckfan (May 7, 2012)

I HAD a farrier that did almost the same thing.  The keyword is HAD.


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## sawfish99 (May 8, 2012)

I agree with everything Goodhors said. 

I am a barefoot trimmer and have worked with a lot of different horses.  Some were downright dangerous in their behaviour and the owners didn't even recognize the problem due to lack of experience.  That said, when I work on a new horse for the first time, I do a much slower approach and evalutation of the temperment of the horse to determine the appropriate response for that horse.  

As for the hitting, I only hit a horse when it is a serious safety issue for me, which does include biting.  A horse simply pulling a foot away is not addressed by hitting.  

Now that the heat of the moment is over, I agree that you should evaluate your horse to be sure there isn't an issue the farrier recognized and you didn't.  I would also recommend that you consider a barefoot specialist if you just need trimming.  I'm not saying farriers are bad, but barefoot specialists may take a different approach.  Discuss what happened with whomever you next trimmer is and ask for their feedback about if the horse was the problem.


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## DonnaBelle (May 8, 2012)

I'm not a well informed horse person, but I do know one thing.

YOU DO NOT HIT AN ANIMAL OR A HUMAN.

PERIOD, END OF DISCUSSION.

DonnaBelle


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## yankee'n'moxie (May 8, 2012)

I do NOT agree with hitting an animal for no reason. My horses get a "Love tap" if they nip or kick (which is almost never), then worked until they submit. I don't smack them because they pulled a foot away, nor would I let my farrier. I was so lucky to have a good farrier referred to me by a friend. He is great! Always firm, and demanding, NEVER harmful to the horse. 

You did the right thing to get rid of him! If you continued to let him work, you would have been saying that he was doing a good job and that is OK. Glad that you kicked him out!!


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## sawfish99 (May 8, 2012)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> I'm not a well informed horse person, but I do know one thing.
> 
> YOU DO NOT HIT AN ANIMAL OR A HUMAN.
> 
> ...


The first time you have a horse's teeth clamping down on your shoulder, instinct/self preservation may take over and give you a different perspective.


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## KinderKorner (May 8, 2012)

^^^^ Very True.

My farrier is sort of the same way. He doesn't put up with mean or dangerous horses. 

If he is trimming and they start pulling, stomping, biting, or kicking he yells "quit" once or twice. If they don't catch on they get a yank on the lead, or a smack with the rasp.

I don't condone such treatment, but I can't say I blame him for being so strict.

It usually only takes one time of them to learn it's not okay, and then they will remember and respect him from then on. 

I don't like being kicked or bitten either. It's dangerous work, and they have to keep themselves safe.

None of my horses have ever been 'hurt' by getting smacked with the rasp. (And they never got it more than once.) 

With saying that, I think your farrier was in a bad mood, and came in with an uncalled for attitude. He should have been more patient.  I would have too looked for a different person.


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## Siouxqie (May 8, 2012)

sawfish99 said:
			
		

> DonnaBelle said:
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> 
> ...


I agree totally.  When I was 17 I was picked up by the shoulder by a clydesdale draft horse and slammed against a barn wall.  In case you aren't familiar with horses, DonnaBelle, clydesdales are HUGE, and when they clamp their teeth into your shoulder and slam you against a barn wall, your life is in danger.  The friend who owned her, hit her hard in the shoulder to get her to let go.  Unfortunately, sometimes a good smack is what has to happen when the animals behavior is endangering someones life or physical well being.  In the case of that horse, we don't know what went wrong, she was well-trained, had always been well-behaved.  She was not in heat, it just happened.  I have a mini donkey now (no other equines), and even he can be dangerous if he gets startled and rears or bucks.  I've had him rear and break my toe when he landed because he got spooked.  I don't condone what the farrier did (in the original post) because that sounds like he was looking for a fight, but to say "You do not hit an animal or a human. Period. End of Discussion."  Sounds really un-educated, and un-informed.  If my life is in danger, or that of another person, "you gotta' do what you gotta' do."


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## goodhors (May 8, 2012)

Siouxqie said:
			
		

> sawfish99 said:
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> 
> 
> ...


Horses are like any herd animal, they will fight, bite, kick, to gain status in the herd.  Those "with status" get to drink and eat first in the game
of survival.  Horse doesn't care if he lives on a farm or wild, this behaviour is in his genes, so that is how they act.  Farm situations
may make YOU and horse the entire herd, and at SOME TIME the horse is going to challenge for a leadership role.  If you give way, back down, 
you COULD get hurt since horse will not allow you any "personal space" again.  He will EXPECT you to get out of his way or get run down!  
That is how herd status works.  Cattle herds work the same way.  In herds you move or get knocked over, bitten or kicked if the animal 
doesn't see you as "head horse" in your herd-of-two.

Horses are NOT people, don't THINK like people or react like any humans.  You could hit a horse as hard as you can with your hand, still not 
come even CLOSE to the power of a hoof landing in a kick.  So a slap is more like a startle reaction from the horse, no severe pain except to
your hand.  Your human body is not up to taking punishment from horses very long, before you are severely damaged.  Even Minis weigh more
than you, can pack a terrific power into kicking and biting.  You can't match that power.

In handling equines, you need to train them, then CONTINUE to reinforce that training forever, so they don't "give it a try" and hurt someone badly.
Equines are NOT PEOPLE, you can't treat them like children or reasoning persons, to get good training results.  They think and react like horses,
FAST, in situations.  More folks get hurt or ruin good animals trying to treat them like are babies, than would seem possible.  Those folks still keep
coming though, just don't get it that powerful equines are not "pets", can't be treated as pets for safety.  People need to BE IN CHARGE, 
horses look for the Herd Leader to manage situations.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 8, 2012)

I still think that your farrier was in the wrong.  I do my own horses and I know how much a good pair nippers cost.  I cannot imagine doing anything with them other than their intended purpose.  But, I have to agree with the others or training, space and overall behavior.  I have Draft horses.  They are big, weighing over 2000 lbs each.  And while they are not mean, I always reinforce my space is my space.  That may be an elbow to their chest or side or an open handed smack.  But, they must respect that.  Every horse is different and some react very differently to differents things. 

Good luck with finding a new farrier.


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## Texokie (May 8, 2012)

Wow.  That farrier was a piece of work.  Isn't it the hardest thing in the world to find a good farrier?!?!  I have a WONDERFUL young man right now, with endless patience with my horses.  If the horse pulls away, he lets go for a second and then tries again.  Eventually, since he works very hard to keep the situation low-stress, the horses come around and let him finish up the trim/shoes.  He is not one of those farriers that rushes to the next job - he takes the amount of time needed to keep each horse at ease.  I've had a few cards myself, though...I had one in Texas that came out early (before our scheduled appointment...I am ALWAYS on-site when a farrier comes out), and proceeded to sedate one of our horses without our knowledge/permission.  We came out, and Jo's head was dragging the ground.  THEN, we get a bill a week later for the shoes AND the cost of the unauthorized sedation.  Needless to say, he never came near our horses again...and in the horse community, word-of-mouth goes a long way towards "culling" those kinds of folks...


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## DonnaBelle (May 8, 2012)

Listen people, go back and read THE ORIGINAL POST.  I was replying in the context that that moron FARRIER  over-reacted and hit the horse with a tool as soon as the horse had a small reaction.

In other words, a PROFESSIONAL PERSON RECEIVING COMPENSATION was hitting a client's animal/property.

Yes, if a horse bit me, or did something awful to me on purpose I would probably get rid of the animal.

I'm sorry I don't believe in hitting an animal or a human everytime they did something minor to tick me off, ESPECIALLY WITH A STEEL TOOL IN MY HAND.

Perhaps I am ignorant or uninformed, but I don't go around hitting anything.  

If someone/something  were threatening my family or livestock, I'd use a firearm, got plenty of those.

DonnaBelle


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## RayofHopeFarms (May 8, 2012)

Thank you all for your replies! I want to clarify a few things that I did not say in the orginal post. Mooshine is an amazing younger horse (5 yrs old) I told the guy on the phone that she could be a little touchy around men but after that man is around her for a little bit and pets her and talks to her she is fine, my sister picks up her feet everyday to clean them out before riding, she was never acting in a mean way towards the farrier (no biting, kicking, or rearing) she simply pulled her leg from between his, my sister is strict with moon because she can be bossy, my sister was holding her for him and when she started to pull back my sister instantly told her to whoa and knock it off, I am NOT against giving her a smack with an open hand when she wont listen after so long she has gotten that a few times but I would NEVER hit her with a metal object!!! I agree with what goodhors said about finding a way to correct the behavior and my next step is to go and get some of the tool or borrow some just show her that these WILL NOT hurt her again. We now know that she has not had her hooves done as often as the previous owners would like to think and we can only learn from here. I have had two other males in the pen with her to pick up her feet and she was fine it just took them being a bit more gentle with her to let her warm up to them. This guy was young like maybe mid 20's and I think he was just WAYYYYY inexperienced and I made the mistake of letting him even start after feeling the way I did after getting out of the truck. I do believe she may have some soreness with pulling her leg outward to get it between his legs which we will work on and if it seems to be painful we will have to find a farrier that will work with that complication. Goodhors I really appriciate your advice and there will be more handling done with her hooves and overall education for us as well. Again I want to thank you all for your opinions and it's good to know that I am not crazy and I hate to hear that this has happened to others. We will be taking her to the vet soon to have her hoof looked at and then talk to another farrier that was recommened to us from somone with a similar situation.

Thank you all!!


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## manybirds (May 8, 2012)

i would have given him a piece of my mind demanded my money back to sent him off my property 'or else' and told locals he was not a good farrier. horses have very sensetive stomachs to. firmness is one thing beating a horse is another. A good slap on the butt is ok if the horse is being very bad, normally nothing else should be required, except in extreme cases where the ferrier is in danger, especially on a good horse.


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## spunkey daisy (May 28, 2012)

ya that is animal abuse i got a horse that that had happend to before i got him out of that fear he is the best horse for trimming feet now and i hope that your horse will not fear its feat being trimmed i am really sorry that happend


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## southernstardowns (May 28, 2012)

I have asked my farrier what he does when he has to trim an unwieldy horse. His two word response was "Have Patience". Anyone that has horses knows that they are smart enough to act on their own accord. This is what makes them trainable, lovable, and downright frustrating at times. That guy was looking for a fight, which the horse could sense, and was abusive to your animal.


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## treeclimber233 (Aug 26, 2012)

I once had a farrier shoe my mare.  When he bent over to pick her foot up he did not even touch her leg to let her know what he wanted.  He just hit her on her coronet band with the rasp and grabbed her foot when she yanked it up.  Thinking I missed something I did not say anything.  I was watching carefully when he moved to her next foot.  Again.. whack on the coronet band.  She yanked her foot up so fast she almost fell on him.  I told him if he hit her again I was going to hit him.  He finished the shooing but I never called him again.  My mare did not like men but she was so good for shooing that when he put her foot up on the thingy to file the top edges she just stood there with her foot up even when he walked away to get something.  Some people.......


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## Arabiansnob (Aug 26, 2012)

If it was me, I would have come unleashed!!  That is one thing I cant stand is when a farrier hits horses, for little reason such as that wont stand still or they pull there foot away.  I have Arabains and I know some people claim Arabains are "crazy"  but my Arabs are just as normal horses as anyothers, they may pull there foot away from the farrier, I have even had a couple that have gotten scared and back up 100 miles an hour.  But never one has my farrier hit or kick my horses!!  I remember when I was younger my grandmother had gotten a new farrier due the previous farriers retirement and a situation such as yours happened with my grandmother show mare and he hit her with the tool very hard a couple time and Keziah flew back words so fast braking the cross ties, My grandmother flew off the rocket!!!   Told that man to get his a$$ out of her barn and not to come back.  She also told him that if he dident get his "anger" under control with horses (such as hitting them)  that she knows alot of people and that she has a very big mouth.  That might have been alittle harsh.  But i really cant stand farriers that hit horses!


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## Joker_Gal’72 (Apr 27, 2018)

RayofHopeFarms said:


> I had a farrier come out to trim our horses hooves and he seems kinda cocky when he got out of the truck which I didn't like so much but just ignored it, my sisters horse went first becuase she is the most calm and she picks up her hooves very easily, well the first thing this guy did was walk over and jerk on moonshines lead and make her jump, this upset me but I gave him another chance he then proceeded to pick up her hoof, which she did no problem but when he started to trim her hoof it scared her and she went backwards and he turned around with the tool and hit her very hard in the stomach with the nippers which absolutely floored me! I was walking towards him when he picked her hoof up again and started again, she did the same thing and he hit her a few more times with the tool and then kicked her hoof where she had a small sore and made it bleed really bad and made it worse. I told him he was done because now she is bleeding and panicking. My sister got her back to the pen and got her calmed down, he told me I needed to be more firm with her so she would stop that. I wasn't mad that he was firm with her just that he didnt need to hit her with the tool, open handed I may not have freaked out as bad but with the tool that was totally uncalled for! It just seemed to me like he had a very bad attitide and now everytime you go to touch my sisters horse she freaks a little bit. Has anyone else had this problem???
> 
> Thank you!


I almost tackled a farrier and all he did was kick her belly (barely made contact) and smacked her face repeatedly with lead rope... I threw his tackle box down over the hill and chased him to the truck!!! 
You deserve a halo and consider yourself an angel for NOT going apes$$t on that fella.


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## KBauza (Sep 11, 2019)

You were definitely right to send him on his way! I would have been tempted to give him a good smack with a tool too, but that would probably been even more traumatic to poor Moonshine. Our little guy has yet to be delivered but I have watched our farrier work several time already at the rescue I work with. He and his wife are wonderful with the horses at the rescue, so patient and gentle with them, even the difficult ones. Mine is a mini and will be a baby so he will be learning from a very young age and I want to make sure he is in the very best hands.


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## KayL (Mar 5, 2020)

I know this thread has been pretty much beat to death. I’m hoping I can chime in with a few personal thoughts and not be stepping too out of place here.

Yes, there are a lot of bad farriers out there. It doesn’t take much effort to watch a few YouTube videos, pick up a Diamond rasp / nippers, and start handing out business cards. But, as some have mentioned, there are also a lot of exceptional and qualified professionals.

🌟Horse owners; if you want to keep your GOOD farrier... take care of them.🌟

A good farrier has put a lot of money, time, and real blood / sweat / tears into the science and craft of equine podiatry. They spend their “days off” attending expensive clinics held by world-class professionals, building complex shoes, entering the next step in their certification- bettering themselves and their industry for the sake of the horse. They work alongside excellent equine veterinarians who know a farriers expertise is invaluable. One farrier is often responsible for the happiness and long-term comfort / success of more than 200 horses at any given time. 

And one ill-placed injury can end their entire career.

Most farriers are more than willing to work with a horse requiring additional caution, finesse and time. If you keep an open line of communication with your farrier and do your best to provide them with a safe working environment, you quickly become a very valuable client. It doesn’t matter if you have one horse or forty. To your farrier, there is no paycheck big enough that’s worth losing their passion and their livelihood.


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