# LGD Questions from a First Timer



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 22, 2022)

Hi everyone! I have a few questions about raising an LGD. 
A little backstory: I started homesteading on a handful of acres last October. I knew I wanted goats to help with brush management—and an LGD to protect them. I did a ton of reading on just about every LGD resource I could find. I searched for an adult dog (rescues, Facebook groups, Craigslist) but the only adult LGD breed dogs in our area were being rehomed for killing livestock, fearing livestock, were failed house pets, or were $2000+ each and bonded. I have $100 worth of goats, so even if I could afford $5000 worth of dogs, it just doesn’t make sense for my level of operation. At that point, I’d have a dog farm with goats for ambiance. 
I settled on a 5 month old female that came from a working home with goats, children, and other dogs. She’s an incredibly sweet dog with a mean bark. We do not expect her to “go to work” or actually defend her herd at this age, but we want to raise her correctly so one day she will. The goats are locked up at night and they are not left together unsupervised. Pup is 9 months old now and has hit her devilish teenage phase. 

She had free roam of the pasture, but the spring season hit us hard. We bought our property in October and had no idea that it was actually five acres of foxtails. After thousands in vet bills (over the course of 3 days) to have them removed from her ears and nose, she is confined to our dog run (about 20’ by 100’) which is as foxtail free as it can be. I brush her and check her paws everyday. She leaves the dog run multiple times a day for walks/runs down our long driveway (on a leash to keep her safe from any lurking foxtails) and we play with her a lot, but she’s still going stir crazy. Any advice on protecting from foxtails and burrs or keeping her mind busy as we ride out foxtail season? 

Additionally (and I’m sure relatedly), she’s picked up an idle bark at night. 1 am, 4 am, it doesn’t matter and sometimes it’s nonstop. We don’t want to “reward” this behavior by giving her attention for it. It’s very different than her “alert” bark. I’m surprised our neighbors haven’t started taking potshots at her (and us). We’d like to end this behavior as soon as possible, before it does get ugly, but I’m at a loss for how. As it is, I cannot afford another foxtail bender or another dog cooped up in the dog run for company. 

One last thing. She’s generally sweet with the goats and we never leave them unsupervised. However, she’s picked up this horrible habit of following the goats around and licking their bums like they are walking treat dispensers. She has never been aggressive towards them, but she locks into this behavior. We firmly tell her no, and she’ll stop for a minute, and then immediately go back to it. Even if she’s on the lead, if a goat cruises by, she locks in. Has anyone experienced and stopped this before? 

Thanks for all your help!


----------



## Finnie (Jun 22, 2022)

Hi, I can’t help you with LGD advice, but I wanted to say hello and welcome to the forum! What general part of the country are you in? You can add it to your profile, and then people who want to give answers to your questions can see what kind of climate affects the answer.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 22, 2022)

Butt licking and sniffing is how dogs, and other animals, identify and bond to their pack members.  If she is just licking, leave her to it.  If she is nibbling or biting, then correct her.  Otherwise, she is learning the smell of her flock/pack members.  Since she is not allowed to run freely with the goats, she needs to check them over and make sure that these are *her* goats each time she encounters them.  As we move our ewes in and out of the breeding pen, main field, and lambing barn, our 3 trained adult LGDs check over every sheep when it is returned to their particular field.  New lambs that are turned in with the main flock also get a rigorous smelling and licking to make sure that our dogs will recognize them as pack members.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 22, 2022)

Finnie said:


> Hi, I can’t help you with LGD advice, but I wanted to say hello and welcome to the forum! What general part of the country are you in? You can add it to your profile, and then people who want to give answers to your questions can see what kind of climate affects the answer.


Thanks Finnie! I am in Northern California. I will add it to my profile as well. 😊


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 22, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Butt licking and sniffing is how dogs, and other animals, identify and bond to their pack members.  If she is just licking, leave her to it.  If she is nibbling or biting, then correct her.  Otherwise, she is learning the smell of her flock/pack members.  Since she is not allowed to run freely with the goats, she needs to check them over and make sure that these are *her* goats each time she encounters them.  As we move our ewes in and out of the breeding pen, main field, and lambing barn, our 3 trained adult LGDs check over every sheep when it is returned to their particular field.  New lambs that are turned in with the main flock also get a rigorous smelling and licking to make sure that our dogs will recognize them as pack members.


Thanks for your response! This definitely goes beyond an identifying sniff. She is eating the poop out of their bums as they as they drop it, and excitedly following them in circles waiting for more. A delicious snack for her, I am sure. She is not “aggressive” about it—meaning I don’t think that she is going to hurt at all—but she is fixated on it, and will disregard commands until I physically pull her away.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 22, 2022)

Idle barking….. get ready for some sleepless nights. I’ve used this method on different breeds for 40 years. It works. 
Dog barks. 
Tap window glass with fingernail 
Open door, HUSH! 
Dog usually stops barking…. Until you just went back to sleep. 
Dog barks.
Tap window. 
Open door, HUSH! 
Go to pen, call dog to you. Pet and firmly say HUSH! Several times. You may have to do this 5-10 times. 

If unwanted idle barking continues, you escalate your correction. 

Dog barks.
Tap window.
Open door, HUSH! 
Go to dog pen with rolled up newspaper. 
Slap pen with paper, HUSH! Each time you slap the pen with the news paper. Slap pen 6 times. 
Before you go back to the house, call dog, pet and reassure that you are not upset any more. You want to correct behavior, not make him scared of you. 

Dog barks. 
Tap window. 
Open door. HUSH!
Go to pen with paper, slap pen 10 times, yell HUSH! each time. 
Call dog to you, give reassurance. 

This usually takes a week or two. If dog is too far away to hear window tap, think of another warning noise the dog can hear, that you can use again easily. In time, the window tap will be all that is needed. 

Sometimes there is the real stubborn dog that just won’t shut up. This is when Monster Mom comes out. If slapping the pen with newspaper doesn’t work, go in the pen and slap your hand. Be mad. If that doesn’t work, yes, slap the dog with the newspaper. More than likely, you won’t have to do that. This is after a couple of weeks of correction and it’s time to escalate. 

I stopped my Anatolians from chasing and catching chickens with a rolled up feed sack. I found chickens laying all over the place. Luckily just in shock, not dead. I made it an event to remember. I put dogs in the coop, tossed chickens on them to make the chickens flutter their wings. Yelling NO over and over, I beat the coop, roost, my leg and I whalloped the dogs with the feed sack. I scolded, I shoved chickens in their faces and yelled some more. I shut them in the coop to think about it, standing where they couldn’t see me. After 5 minutes, I went back, went in the coop and called them to me. I reassured them that I wasn’t mad any more. Then calmly caught a chicken and offered the hen to each of them. They wanted NOTHING to do with the chicken. Problem solved. 

My point is, mostly a simple correction works. Sometimes you have to correct over and over, patiently until one day, they get it. For real bad behavior I bring out the rolled up paper. For terrible never do that again behavior, I rain rolled up paper all over. That is the only time I whalloped them with a paper sack.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 22, 2022)

It is important with a young dog, when the barking is real, whether it’s a bobcat or anything your dog sees as a threat, go outside and back him up. Go talk to him, pet and praise him. This lets him know he’s not alone. You don’t have to do this every night, just once in awhile or when he is seriously barking. You may actually find a predator. It could be a possum, or anything. 

There has been a pesky turtle invading the sheep pasture. My male Anatolian hates the turtle, barks and paws at it. I’ve put it over the fence 3 times, a few days later, it’s back. Sometimes you have to help them fight their battles. LOL


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 22, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Idle barking….. get ready for some sleepless nights. I’ve used this method on different breeds for 40 years. It works.
> Dog barks.
> Tap window glass with fingernail
> Open door, HUSH!
> ...


This is great advice, thank you! I will definitely try it. It has been high seventies here at night lately and I’ve been considering sleeping outside on the deck (where I can see her but she can’t see me) to correct her consistently (day job be damned lol). If she sees me, or if I hush her, she stops immediately, which makes it hard to find the right balance with correction. She would stop barking long before I made it down the stairs to slap the pen—which is a good thing, I guess—but she’ll start up again 5 minutes later (as soon as i’m back in bed!). Is it okay to go down and slap the pen even if by that time she is no longer barking? She is attention-motivated, so I am worried about reinforcing the behavior by going to her (and she learns “I bark, mom comes” even if mom is angry, because bad attention is still attention). Often when I hush her (sternly), her tail is wagging to see me.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 22, 2022)

Baymule said:


> It is important with a young dog, when the barking is real, whether it’s a bobcat or anything your dog sees as a threat, go outside and back him up. Go talk to him, pet and praise him. This lets him know he’s not alone. You don’t have to do this every night, just once in awhile or when he is seriously barking. You may actually find a predator. It could be a possum, or anything.
> 
> There has been a pesky turtle invading the sheep pasture. My male Anatolian hates the turtle, barks and paws at it. I’ve put it over the fence 3 times, a few days later, it’s back. Sometimes you have to help them fight their battles. LOL


That is so funny about the turtle! We don’t have turtles around here, so I imagine everyone would be really surprised if we found one.

I or my partner go outside with a flashlight when she barks seriously. She has a very serious and deep alert bark. We don’t praise her, but we stand with her and investigate. She can hear the neighbor dogs and I am sure she is often discussing the latest hot gossip with them. It’s a bigger deal for her to bark all night though, because we are at the top of a hill and sound travels like crazy from our house to the neighbors.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 22, 2022)

Yes, it is ok to go slap the pen. Make yourself BIG. A strong posture, raise your arms, be intimidating. Even though she has stopped barking, follow through with slapping the pen. Make lots of noise. A paper feed sack, rolled up makes lots of noise! 

Her tail is wagging glad to see you because she doesn’t know you are not happy with her. It’s not her fault, she just doesn’t get it. It will take time, patience and more patience. 

The breeder chose me for the female Anatolian I have. Sheba is unbelievably stubborn. Smart, but stubborn. Breeder said it would take someone with lots of patience to train her. Breeder wasn’t wrong. I’ll go find her thread, I was so excited when she finally got it that I was scolding her that I took a picture! She even looked sorry! BRB


----------



## Baymule (Jun 22, 2022)

Sheba’s thread. The picture of her looking scolded is on page 16. 






						Sheba-A Marvelous Gift
					

I was contacted by a person wishing to remain anonymous, with an offer of an Anatolian puppy. As I read the generous offer to BJ, we both burst into tears. Because of Sentry’s hip dysplasia and surgery and our decision not to put him through another surgery, this person felt bad for us. Needless...



					www.backyardherds.com
				




Your dog is young, with consistent training, positive reinforcement and correction, she will suddenly come into her own and you’ll be thinking somebody switched dogs on you. LOL LOL


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 22, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Sheba’s thread. The picture of her looking scolded is on page 16.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! I will check out her thread!


----------



## Ridgetop (Jun 23, 2022)

I don't think you mentioned what breed your LGD is.  Also, how many acres is she guarding?  

One thing to remember is that you need to be sure it is boredom barking before punishing or reprimanding her since many times your dogs will bark at a threat that you can see or hear.  It is important to acknowledge the warning bark even if you can't see it since the dog needs to know that she has backup.  You are currently keeping her penned away from your animals.  When you bring them in at night can you let her run over your acreage?  Is it fenced for the dog?  If she is bored at night and barking, allowing her access to the entire property will give her more to do.  This only works if the property is properly fenced.  Since it is covered with foxtails, maybe you could get a neighbor to cut it for you.  Foxtails laying on the ground are much less likely to be picked up in ears and nose.  Mowing will also encourage new growth of grass and forage for your herd.

As to eating the poop, it is possible that your dog is eating it to provide her with some missing vitamin or ? in her diet.  Try adding 1/2 cup of rabbit pellets to her food.  That is what we did in the olden days when our dogs would eat grass.  Maybe she is eating the poop for that reason.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 23, 2022)

Ridgetop, thank you so much for the advice! She’s a great pyr. We have about 5 acres. The whole property is fenced and then the pasture is fenced within. All no climb, about 5 feet high, I’d say, minus the dog run which is 10 feet on one side (previous owner put it in—I’m not sure why so high there, but it’s nice fencing and I’m very grateful for it!). The pup can see the goats 90% of the time as they LOVE the dog run and hang out close by. The goats come into the dog run for a couple hours a day while I play and fuss with everyone and do chores. Yesterday the goats hung out in the dog run for a while as I watched from the house window, and the pup was great! She followed them around a bit, but mostly laid down in the middle of them. 
She does accompany them down to goat shed. We let her wander a little bit in the meadow, but mostly keep her close as the burrs are attracted to her long fur. After we lock up the goats we run and play with her back up the hill and then play with her until she is exhausted. 
I’ve weedwhacked a ton of the pasture myself—probably 4 acres of it—over the course of the last couple weeks, trying to make it safe for her and for fire season. We are super hilly so mowing is a challenge.   Foxtails go to seed again after cut, just a little shorter this time. Next year I will know, and will seed the pasture with something native and get to weedwhacking much sooner.
The past two nights, the goats have refused to go in their shed. We encourage them in with a handful of grain in a bucket, but lately they just don’t want to. One is a little weird and has been a bit skittish, and has led the herd to a bit of a bedtime rodeo. I’ve been thinking it’s the heat and the long days lately. So for the past two nights, I’ve penned them in the chicken run (which shares a fence with the dog run). Pup can see them and they are close to the house, but I don’t have to worry about her chewing on their legs or something (she never has but I’m worried she will escalate if not supervised).  
I stayed up last night to reprimand her idle barking as baymule suggested, but most of her barking was sporadic and serious (not the steady arf-arf-arf-arf-arf it sometimes is). I’d march outside and look around and talk to her, but never saw anything. Come to find out, our next door neighbor had a bear hit their chicken coop last night. Their chickens were fine, thank goodness, but still very scary. Not sure if the goats are safer up by the house and dog tonight or locked in their barn away from the house. I’m sure a bear could peel open the barn like a can of sardines if it really wanted to. But I will definitely be camping out and staying up tonight. 

Also, that’s great advice about rabbit pellets. She does eat grass when out in the pasture, but I always thought she was mimicking the goats (as they’ll all stand around and munch together). I’ll see if I can pick up some supplemental feed today.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 23, 2022)

Yes a bear can tear into your goat barn. Stop and think about it….. your goats don’t want to go in it. They are happy to go in the chicken run next to their protector. Listen to your animals. They are talking to you the only way they know how. You can bet they know the bear is prowling about. Maybe the 5’ fence and a barking dog is a deterrent and the neighbor’s chicken coop was an easier target.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 29, 2022)

About the foxtails: We got a mask for our dog, from OutFox, online, that covers the dogs entire head and keeps out foxtails. It is fantastic. Before we got it we would have 3-4 trips to the vet with sedation to remove foxtails from the nose or ears, now we have had none for years. Bennie sniffs the ground intently, so just mowing was not enough to keep him safe.
That blasted foxtail barley does come back shorter after mowing so mowing early will not do much, and weed whacking will distribute the seeds everywhere. Mowing when the bottom of the seed head has turned yellow but the seeds are still firmly attached and then picking it up and composting to reduce the seed load will help. When replacing with native grasses beware of the needle grasses! Their awns are just as problematic. Also native grasses have a hard time competing with foxtails. I would look for anything that grows well here and is unproblematic for livestock. To compete with foxtails it has to come up early and grow fast so it shades the ground where foxtail seeds lie. The wild oat grasses around here do a good job with that, but they also have somewhat annoying awns, nowhere near as bad as foxtail barley or the needle grasses though… Where in Northern California are you? We are in Sonoma County. Nightly brushing and paw checks and the mask are our routine, until the first rains turn things green again.


----------



## secuono (Jun 29, 2022)

It sounds like simply mowing would fix the problem.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 29, 2022)

secuono said:


> It sounds like simply mowing would fix the problem.


It sure helps, but you still get a dog covered in awns if they lay down. And the awns travel so they can still get into ears and eyes and sniffing will get them into the nose. Once the seed heads are mature you’re not safe until the next good rain (often November) which will drive the seeds in the ground and make them sprout.


----------



## Bruce (Jun 29, 2022)

Goatsincoats99 said:


> If she sees me, or if I hush her, she stops immediately, which makes it hard to find the right balance with correction.


I wonder if a shock collar set to the warning tone would allow you to correct her without her seeing you. Not sure how you get her to equate the tone with "BAD DOG!!!" though.



Baymule said:


> Breeder said it would take someone with lots of patience to train her.


Not to mention as stubborn as the dog


----------



## Bruce (Jun 29, 2022)

Seems like if you mow early and often the sprouted foxtail generating plants will have to die off because they won't ever go to seed. Shouldn't take more than a season or two?? Do you have a tractor with a flail or rotary cutter?


----------



## murphysranch (Jun 29, 2022)

Reminds me of Star Thistle. It was ALL OVER the Sierra Nevadas. I see it up here too, way north. Very invasive and nasty.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 29, 2022)

Bruce said:


> Seems like if you mow early and often the sprouted foxtail generating plants will have to die off because they won't ever go to seed. Shouldn't take more than a season or two?? Do you have a tractor with a flail or rotary cutter?


Hi Bruce. We don’t have a tractor, or even a mower. We moved in a few months ago and only have a weed whacker we inherited (for now). We are working on getting a no turn or an atv with brush hog or mower attachment… but our property is a steep hill, so we’re not sure how useful any of that would be. Thats why we initially wanted goats as brush/weed control (not knowing the property was a lot of unmunchables like foxtail and burrs.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 29, 2022)

Stephine said:


> About the foxtails: We got a mask for our dog, from OutFox, online, that covers the dogs entire head and keeps out foxtails. It is fantastic. Before we got it we would have 3-4 trips to the vet with sedation to remove foxtails from the nose or ears, now we have had none for years. Bennie sniffs the ground intently, so just mowing was not enough to keep him safe.
> That blasted foxtail barley does come back shorter after mowing so mowing early will not do much, and weed whacking will distribute the seeds everywhere. Mowing when the bottom of the seed head has turned yellow but the seeds are still firmly attached and then picking it up and composting to reduce the seed load will help. When replacing with native grasses beware of the needle grasses! Their awns are just as problematic. Also native grasses have a hard time competing with foxtails. I would look for anything that grows well here and is unproblematic for livestock. To compete with foxtails it has to come up early and grow fast so it shades the ground where foxtail seeds lie. The wild oat grasses around here do a good job with that, but they also have somewhat annoying awns, nowhere near as bad as foxtail barley or the needle grasses though… Where in Northern California are you? We are in Sonoma County. Nightly brushing and paw checks and the mask are our routine, until the first rains turn things green again.


I’m in el dorado county, near Auburn. It seems like the small patches of Clover push out the foxtails pretty well, and keep things low to the ground. The goats don’t eat the clover, though, but they don’t eat the foxtail either and there’s plenty of other forage for them. We have very little water in this area, so something drought tolerant would be great. 
I’ve looked into the Outfox, but I was hesistant to believe that the pup would keep it on for any length of time, as she has a keen ability for destruction. Maybe I will order it and give it a try anyway. The foxtails seem like less of a problem lately and the hitchhikers, goats head, and burrs are worse. If we walk through the pasture, she’s just an insane mess within seconds. The goats are completely unaffected. Has anyone tried horse show-sheen (that real slippery stuff) to keep burrs off?


----------



## Stephine (Jun 29, 2022)

Bruce said:


> Seems like if you mow early and often the sprouted foxtail generating plants will have to die off because they won't ever go to seed. Shouldn't take more than a season or two?? Do you have a tractor with a flail or rotary cutter?


One would think, but these things make seedheads even directly on the ground, if you cut them over and over while still green. So you end up with plants too short to mow. Also they are perennial in California, coming back from the crown. Seeds stay viable for a very long time and tilling makes things worse, because it brings more seeds to the surface where they can sprout. It’s really awful stuff and all you can do is: pull out when still green or mow just before seeds are mature (only works if rains stopped a while earlier and soil is nice and dry, so there can’t be any regrowth that seasons) and remove the cut plants (or sow something that germinates earlier and grows faster than foxtail barley to keep it from coming up in the first place. Not sure what that would be though).


----------



## Stephine (Jun 29, 2022)

Goatsincoats99 said:


> I’m in el dorado county, near Auburn. It seems like the small patches of Clover push out the foxtails pretty well, and keep things low to the ground. The goats don’t eat the clover, though, but they don’t eat the foxtail either and there’s plenty of other forage for them. We have very little water in this area, so something drought tolerant would be great.
> I’ve looked into the Outfox, but I was hesistant to believe that the pup would keep it on for any length of time, as she has a keen ability for destruction. Maybe I will order it and give it a try anyway. The foxtails seem like less of a problem lately and the hitchhikers, goats head, and burrs are worse. If we walk through the pasture, she’s just an insane mess within seconds. The goats are completely unaffected. Has anyone tried horse show-sheen (that real slippery stuff) to keep burrs off?


Do you know what kind of clover? We have lots of burr clover (of course! 😂), but our sheep like it very much, so it’s becoming less of a problem. Most burr and sticker producing weeds around here (hedge parsley, velcro weed, burr clover and stork’s bill) can be easily managed with mowing and composting. It’s just the blasted foxtails that keep coming back. 
I don’t know if your dog would be able to destroy the mask - I taught ours very early that things aren’t for ripping apart, so it’s not an issue here - but at least when he’s supervised on a walk it would probably help a lot.


----------



## Bruce (Jun 29, 2022)

If you have steep slopes my understanding is that a zero turn isn't for you. They do make gas powered rotary mowers you can pull with an ATV if you already have one or a garden tractor (though the latter would have a mowing deck). I can't even imagine string trimming 5 acres!!!!!

OK, here is an off the wall thought. They make baggers that attach to sub compact mower decks. I wonder if you could rent same for a day so when you mow all the foxtails would get sucked up rather than just tossed on the ground? Then you could dump them in a fire pit and burn the damn things.


----------



## Baymule (Jun 29, 2022)

I’ve never used it, but @farmerjan does, a product for pastures called Grazon.  It is a weed killer.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 29, 2022)

Bruce said:


> If you have steep slopes my understanding is that a zero turn isn't for you. They do make gas powered rotary mowers you can pull with an ATV if you already have one or a garden tractor (though the latter would have a mowing deck). I can't even imagine string trimming 5 acres!!!!!
> 
> OK, here is an off the wall thought. They make baggers that attach to sub compact mower decks. I wonder if you could rent same for a day so when you mow all the foxtails would get sucked up rather than just tossed on the ground? Then you could dump them in a fire pit and burn the damn things.


Only, you’re not allowed to burn anything… 😬


----------



## Bruce (Jun 30, 2022)

I don't know about YOU but *I* am allowed to burn brush. Just need to let the fire department know and make sure it is a non wind day and has rained recently. Or there is snow on the ground, no sparks light anything then.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 30, 2022)

Bruce said:


> I don't know about YOU but *I* am allowed to burn brush. Just need to let the fire department know and make sure it is a non wind day and has rained recently. Or there is snow on the ground, no sparks light anything then.


Yeah, I meant “you” as in “one”, not you personally, of course! The OP is in Auburn, CA, not all that far from me. It’s bone dry here, we have wildfires daily and one can’t get a burn permit at all during the dry season.


----------



## Bruce (Jun 30, 2022)

Unfortunately it seems that the "dry" season in Cal is pretty much 12 months a year now


----------



## secuono (Jun 30, 2022)

Stephine said:


> It sure helps, but you still get a dog covered in awns if they lay down. And the awns travel so they can still get into ears and eyes and sniffing will get them into the nose. Once the seed heads are mature you’re not safe until the next good rain (often November) which will drive the seeds in the ground and make them sprout.


Can they not be mowed as it grows, preventing seedheads from developing in the first place?
Guessing, from your previous reply, that it's too late to do that now?


----------



## Stephine (Jun 30, 2022)

Bruce said:


> Unfortunately it seems that the "dry" season in Cal is pretty much 12 months a year now


Close.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 30, 2022)

secuono said:


> Can they not be mowed as it grows, preventing seedheads from developing in the first place?
> Guessing, from your previous reply, that it's too late to do that now?


No, they will start maturing anyway and keep pushing out seed heads until dried up and dormant, even if they are on 1/8”stems. Truly ridiculous this plant… I am dreaming of animals who will actually consume the green seed heads. That would be the solution. I have even considered guinea pigs! (too hot here for them…)


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 30, 2022)

secuono said:


> Can they not be mowed as it grows, preventing seedheads from developing in the first place?
> Guessing, from your previous reply, that it's too late to do that now?


That was my plan for next year… to start my weed whacking / mowing marathon much earlier. But if you mow the foxtail grass, it still goes to seed just an inch long (in my experience). I would prefer not to use herbicide as we have animals… and a creek that runs through our pasture and into the neighbor’s property (would rather not poison them as well). I tried spraying vinegar and soap on the foxtails in the dog run, but it did nothing. I pulled them all out by the roots (so much pulling I had blisters for days), and now there’s only a small patch that’s returned. But we’ll see come next spring. I might try to spray the dog run with herbicide if I can move the dog off property for a while. But that’s a whole thing. 
Here are some pictures: 

1. Foxtails after “mowing;” pencil for scale. First round they were maybe 10 to 12 inches high. After cutting, they reseed just a few inches tall. 

2. The boys hard at work in the pasture today. 

3 and 4. The pasture at the peak of spring. 

Last pic is for steepness reference. 

(The goats do not eat the lupin, but it is preventing me from getting sheep.)


----------



## Stephine (Jun 30, 2022)

Goatsincoats99 said:


> That was my plan for next year… to start my weed whacking / mowing marathon much earlier. But if you mow the foxtail grass, it still goes to seed just an inch long (in my experience). I would prefer not to use herbicide as we have animals… and a creek that runs through our pasture and into the neighbor’s property (would rather not poison them as well). I tried spraying vinegar and soap on the foxtails in the dog run, but it did nothing. I pulled them all out by the roots (so much pulling I had blisters for days), and now there’s only a small patch that’s returned. But we’ll see come next spring. I might try to spray the dog run with herbicide if I can move the dog off property for a while. But that’s a whole thing.
> Here are some pictures:
> 
> 1. Foxtails after “mowing;” pencil for scale. First round they were maybe 10 to 12 inches high. After cutting, they reseed just a few inches tall.
> ...


I forgot you have goats! So the goats don’t eat the green seed heads either?


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 30, 2022)

Stephine said:


> I forgot you have goats! So the goats don’t eat the green seed heads either?


They’ll nibble it here and there… but they definitely won’t eat acres of it, especially with so much other forage available. We’d need about a couple dozen more goats to effectively mow the pasture that way… but that’s more goats than I can handle. I talked to a guy to have his herd of mobile goats come clear the pasture—he quoted $1500 an acre… I’d get out there and eat it myself for that much. I’m sure that’s a fair price for his services, but I’d rather put that money towards more of my own goats, or fencing, or a tractor, etc. We’ve thrown around the idea of fencing a small patch for them to eat at a time and then rotating spots (chicken tractor style) and we may try that early spring next year in the high-density foxtail patches before they go to seed. Fence panels themselves are so expensive, we’re really trying to be as effective as possible with our resources.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jun 30, 2022)

Bruce said:


> If you have steep slopes my understanding is that a zero turn isn't for you. They do make gas powered rotary mowers you can pull with an ATV if you already have one or a garden tractor (though the latter would have a mowing deck). I can't even imagine string trimming 5 acres!!!!!
> 
> OK, here is an off the wall thought. They make baggers that attach to sub compact mower decks. I wonder if you could rent same for a day so when you mow all the foxtails would get sucked up rather than just tossed on the ground? Then you could dump them in a fire pit and burn the damn things.


I love the bag idea—I’ll have to look around the area for some rentals. We wouldn’t be able to burn it until November or December… but we would be able to burn it eventually. I haven’t had the gumption to get out there with a rake just yet.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 30, 2022)

Goatsincoats99 said:


> They’ll nibble it here and there… but they definitely won’t eat acres of it, especially with so much other forage available. We’d need about a couple dozen more goats to effectively mow the pasture that way… but that’s more goats than I can handle. I talked to a guy to have his herd of mobile goats come clear the pasture—he quoted $1500 an acre… I’d get out there and eat it myself for that much. I’m sure that’s a fair price for his services, but I’d rather put that money towards more of my own goats, or fencing, or a tractor, etc. We’ve thrown around the idea of fencing a small patch for them to eat at a time and then rotating spots (chicken tractor style) and we may try that early spring next year in the high-density foxtail patches before they go to seed. Fence panels themselves are so expensive, we’re really trying to be as effective as possible with our resources.


I am glad to hear that they at least nibble it! Yes, you don’t have a lot of goats for the amount of greenery that needs to be beaten into submission 😂, they have a lot to pick and chose from. But if they do eat some, definitely fencing in smaller areas and rotating to make them eat the stuff is worth trying. I am so tempted to get some goats, too, but just can’t deal with animals that get out of their enclosures and goats are of course notorious, especially if you are trying to make them eat stuff they don’t care much about, with better stuff in full view…. I would love to read updates of how it works out for you!


----------



## Bruce (Jun 30, 2022)

Goatsincoats99 said:


> We’ve thrown around the idea of fencing a small patch for them to eat at a time and then rotating spots (chicken tractor style) and we may try that early spring next year in the high-density foxtail patches before they go to seed. Fence panels themselves are so expensive, we’re really trying to be as effective as possible with our resources.


Premier 1 electric goat fence

Not cheap but a 164' roll costs the same as just two 16' goat panels at TSC, you might need 2 rolls for the number of goats you have. The solar energizer will be another 3-4 panels equivalent.  If you go this route pay the extra $20 for the double spike posts.

This is much easier to move than a goat panel fence since you only need T-posts on the corners because the stepin posts the net is connected to need to pull back to a sturdy post at those points. Premier1 has a "FiberTuff" post that can be used on corners.


----------



## Stephine (Jun 30, 2022)

Bruce said:


> Premier 1 electric goat fence
> 
> Not cheap but a 164' roll costs the same as just two 16' goat panels at TSC, you might need 2 rolls for the number of goats you have. The solar energizer will be another 3-4 panels equivalent.  If you go this route pay the extra $20 for the double spike posts.
> 
> This is much easier to move than a goat panel fence since you only need T-posts on the corners because the stepin posts the net is connected to need to pull back to a sturdy post at those points. Premier1 has a "FiberTuff" post that can be used on corners.


Second that recommendation! I have the premier1 poultry fencing for my sheep, with driveable posts and pos/neg option (to get a shock going in our super dry summer soil). Get some extra fibertuff posts if your terrain isn’t completely flat and straight, helps to keep fence from sagging, lets you make extra turns between fence posts and keeps the fence taut through corners.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jan 4, 2023)

Hey everyone! It’s been a few months and I thought I would update and ask for some more advice. The puppy is now 15 ish months. She settled down briefly and the barking subsided. I took Baymule’s advice and angrily marched to the pen and smacked the fence with a newspaper. It made a big commotion and the behavior stopped. Still no night barking save one or two “alerts” every now and then which I will go outside and look around and tell her “okay, go to bed” and she will. 
She was able to roam the pasture for a while and it was so rewarding to look out the window and see her lying down in the middle of the grazing goats. Now with the winter weather, things have become more chaotic again. I am able to spend way less time outside with her, as I did in the summer when I was working outside all day. She is generally cooped up in her house to get out of the weather, so she has a lot of energy when it clears up. I think she has hit another naughty teen phase—at least that’s what I’m hoping it is. We found bite marks on two of the goats and immediately separated them. She can see them from her dog run but she is not in with them unsupervised (mostly—will get to that). I know this causes her boredom and I’ve tried to give her bones and toys to help. She will generally just bury the bone anyway.

She is VERY clever and knows when we are watching and when we are not. She will ONLY “play” with the goats when she thinks we are not watching. She will not do it when I am outside with them. She clearly knows it is bad behavior and will sulk and pout when she gets caught. She looks up at the house windows and searches to see if anyone is watching. I am sometimes standing in the window (if she sees me she’ll act nonchalant and lay down or sniff around). I am a sometimes hiding and watching, like a lunatic—this is how I know. If she doesn’t see anyone watching she’ll start to harass the goats trying to get them to play. We have a vibrating collar on her and I will buzz her when I catch this behavior. She will immediately stop, go lay in her house, and sulk.

The problem is I know I am not catching all of this behavior because she has started digging out of the dog run when I leave the property. This has happened 3 or 4 times since Christmas. I know she is bored and wants to be with her goats—but it was after she dug out that I found the second bite marks. Obviously this is unacceptable behavior but the challenge is stopping it when it only happens when I’m not home. I have never even seen her dig when I am home.

Just yesterday, I left the house for a few hours for a dr appointment. I had filled in her latest hole with a massive log that I could barely lift. When I returned, she had moved the log and dug out and the neighbor had left a note on the door saying she is barking for hours and I need to stop her barking as it is very annoying. She does not bark when I am home (maybe one or two barks over the course of the whole day) so this behavior MUST be when I leave. I assume she dug out of her dog run and stood at the far end of the pasture barking. I do not know what she is barking at or why. The goats were locked in their barn the whole time, so no biting thankfully. Just to clarify she has never left the property or tried to dig from the pasture. But I am anxious she will escalate soon. 

I know I need to put up hot wire to stop this digging entirely and that’s my next step. Problem now is getting to the store to purchase a charger because the nearest store will be over an hour long trip and I know she will bark while I am gone and annoy the neighbor. I can order online but I’d like to take care of this today or tomorrow, not in a couple weeks. 

I’m not sure what to do beyond that. Do you have any advice? I really want to quash this and get through this teen phase. I am hoping to set up a “sting” and get a friend to drive away in my car while I hide in the house so I can catch the behavior and use the buzz collar when she thinks I’m gone. But it’ll be a little while before I can recruit someone to do this.

95% of the time she is behaving very well. Her other behavior has stopped and foxtails have not been an issue lately. As I’ve said—when I’m home she rarely barks and does not dig. But this other 5% will be a real challenge to break.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 4, 2023)

Bark collar when you are gone? 
Clue the neighbor in on the challenges you are experiencing and thank neighbor profusely for letting you know what is going on when you are not home. Tell the neighbor your plans and that you are working on your dog not being so annoying. 

You may have to wire the bottom of the kennel she is in. 

Watching the windows! Oh what a smarty!


----------



## SageHill (Jan 5, 2023)

Baymule said:


> Bark collar when you are gone?


If you do get a bark collar get a good one. Don't waste time and $ on cheap ones - they don't work or only work a little and quit. A reliable brand is Dogtra. Just sayin'.


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Jan 5, 2023)

Sounds like a plan. Thank you guys for your help and encouragement. I really appreciate it!!


----------



## Goatsincoats99 (Monday at 11:40 PM)

Hey everyone. Just got the hot wire hooked up this afternoon. It’s about a foot off the ground. I grabbed it a few times and it’s a shock, but not as strong as horse fencing, in my experience. One goat touched it and trotted off, no big reaction. She sniffed it and shocked herself shortly after and has since been upset. She is hiding in the far corner and seems sad and scared. I’ve gone out to play and cuddle and give her some chicken. But it makes me really sad to see her so upset. Has anyone else experienced this? How long did this last? I don’t think she understands what is shocking her or why it happens. I know that it’s necessary because she cannot disrespect fences, dig out, get hit on the highway and get hurt, or hurt someone else’s livestock or animals—god forbid. But I just really hate to see her so dejected.


----------



## Baymule (Tuesday at 5:56 AM)

My female Great Pyrenees got mad the first time she got shocked. She blamed it on my husband, standing outside the fence, because he called her. We believe she would have bit him if he had been inside the fence. She snarled, barked , picked up a piece of rebar and flung it. But she was psycho crazy anyway. She learned to respect the fence. He went out later and loved on her, she forgave him. That ended her digging out. 

Your dog is confused, she doesn’t understand the hot wire. Give her extra attention and praise. You can build her confidence while respecting the fence. You might even touch or pretend to touch the wire and yelp like a puppy. Then go to her for comfort. Lead her into the pasture and play in the open. Teach the fence to her.


----------



## Margali (Tuesday at 8:15 AM)

@Goatsincoats99 Love on her till she perks up some. Then take her on a walk with you (leased or not). When she gets close to fence warn her verbally and call her back. If she ignores you and get ZAPPED, say no and call her back to you. That's what I did with my farm dog and it worked pretty good.


----------

