# Opinions Please



## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 3, 2019)

My family lives on 12 acres with another family. They have ~12 goats and a Pyrenese. We have ~6 sheep and were going to get an Anatolian to be with them at all times. We were told not to get the Anatolian and that they would get another Pyrenese to run free and gaurd the whole property. We do not feel like our sheep will be protected because 1) the Pyrenese is accustomed to staying with their goats and 2) with ferral dogs, coyotes, and bobcats, we don't think response time will be fast enough with just the two of them running 12 acres with two seperate herds. We think even with the two Pyrenese gaurding the whole property, we need an lsg to stay with our sheep. Are we being unreasonable?


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## Baymule (Feb 3, 2019)

Your sheep need your dog. That's my opinion. But you do have to respect the landowners.

A lot depends on the terrain of the property. Is it flat and can be seen from corner to corner? Is it hilly, cut with deep gulleys that you can't see into without standing on the edge? Since this is not your property, is there a reason that the landowners only want their breed of dog on the property? Are they afraid of mixed breed puppies? You may not want to rock the boat, if there is a squabble over dogs, do you have somewhere else to move your sheep? Do the land owners live on the property, do you? 

Asking questions to better understand your situation.


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## Rammy (Feb 3, 2019)

Are your sheep and thier livestock in the same pasture? Id go ahead and get the Tolie if your livestock are not in an area thier dog would protect yours.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 3, 2019)

If they will be running together you will need to make sure they get along.

What @Baymule said.

IMO that is too much land for 2 dogs.


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## Rammy (Feb 3, 2019)

Maybe three or four dogs?


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## greybeard (Feb 3, 2019)

MyFather'sSheep said:


> My family lives on 12 acres with another family. They have ~12 goats and a Pyrenese. We have ~6 sheep and were going to get an Anatolian to be with them at all times. We were told not to get the Anatolian and that they would get another Pyrenese to run free and gaurd the whole property. We do not feel like our sheep will be protected because 1) the Pyrenese is accustomed to staying with their goats and 2) with ferral dogs, coyotes, and bobcats, we don't think response time will be fast enough with just the two of them running 12 acres with two seperate herds. We think even with the two Pyrenese gaurding the whole property, we need an lsg to stay with our sheep. Are we being unreasonable?


Whoever owns the property usually gets to make the rules unless there is a legally binding partnership/contract of some kind. Loose family farm endeavors often result in disagreements. btdt.


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## SonRise Acres (Feb 3, 2019)

I guess my first question is, what type of agreement do you have with them? Do you have a lease or other contract? If so, do they allow you to have dogs? If so I would provide a dog for your livestock. If not, you are at their mercy.


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## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 3, 2019)

Thank you for your replies. Both families live on the land and both herds are seperate. There are lots of trees on this land, only the center few acres are cleared. There is maybe an acre or two between the two groups. These are our close friends, so we could have another conversation about it, but I want to make sure our concerns are valid before attempting another conversation. He said his dogs have to be the dominant dogs on the property in case we leave. We explained that the dynamics of dog packs are such that even if the dominant dogs leave, others will take their place. We have had a Belgian Malinois out here with us, so we were surprised by this decision. Our biggest issue is that we have lost birds from the dogs from a neighboring property and we are much closer to that property than where they are.


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## Rammy (Feb 3, 2019)

Id say if your fences are separate to keep each in their properties, Id get a dog to protect your flock. Since you have already lost livestock to stray dogs, a LSG seems appropriate.


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## Latestarter (Feb 3, 2019)

Without a lot more detail on the "living arrangements" between you and the other family that owns/lives on the land, there's no real way to answer or help you. 

Fencing should be your first and primary line of defense IMHO. LGD's might benefit you, but to be "told" what you can and can't have and all the other stuff you intimated... Gosh... just not sure about all that. Could be the downfall of a friendship if not handled well. The LGD's really need to possess/own their field and the animals they are protecting. That's what they do. There really should be dogs with each group, not one or two dogs having to cover separate groups that may be at opposite ends of the property. Since you just got the sheep, the existing LGD's being with goats, may or may not accept the sheep as part of their flock/herd to protect...

You're kinda between a rock and a hard place. Hope you can get it figured out in a workable fashion amenable to all involved.


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## Baymule (Feb 3, 2019)

Put up a good fence and hot wire it. That will keep YOUR dogs in and THEIR dogs out. Their dogs can be the alpha dogs over their own domain and since they don't like shocking experiences, they will stay out of your sheep pasture.


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## Bluekat2u (Feb 6, 2019)

Get a llama. It will protect the herd in the pasture with it, and the landowners concern might be alleviated with this solution. My llama keeps the neighbors dogs out of the pasture, otherwise we would have no birds left at all, and you cant allow neighborhood dogs back into your birds area again, once they kill birds they will never ever stop. Ever.


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## Rammy (Feb 6, 2019)

What about a donkey? I know the farmers around here have alot of them. They sure will stomp a dog or a coyote after the baby calves.


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## Ron Bequeath (Feb 6, 2019)

MyFather'sSheep said:


> My family lives on 12 acres with another family. They have ~12 goats and a Pyrenese. We have ~6 sheep and were going to get an Anatolian to be with them at all times. We were told not to get the Anatolian and that they would get another Pyrenese to run free and gaurd the whole property. We do not feel like our sheep will be protected because 1) the Pyrenese is accustomed to staying with their goats and 2) with ferral dogs, coyotes, and bobcats, we don't think response time will be fast enough with just the two of them running 12 acres with two seperate herds. We think even with the two Pyrenese gaurding the whole property, we need an lsg to stay with our sheep. Are we being unreasonable?


 I don't  have either of the large breeds but do have cows, goats and many other live stock. I live on a farmette of 7.75 acres nestled in tbe heart area of 400 acres. My animals roam at least 10 to 15 acres. The dogs i use are a pair of Australian shepherds. They keep the 14 or more coyotes that my neighbor from Pittsburgh feeds all winter at bay til my friend has time to come in and take care of the wild doys, coyotes, opossum, raccoon and other varmine. They not only drive the animals in at night they cover all twenty close acers and the vermine stay clear of my place. They even hear things that I never hear and are out in a flash after them, between them and me we have put a number of vermine to their demise. They follow commands readily, and of course herd readily. They clean the kids when born and watch the herd with out being told. Although they don't mix with the herd their speed and agility gets them were their needed quickly. Even yo the fact that they clear a 39 inch fence if needs be. Hope this opens up another track of thought. And mine are not what the books say. At my age 67, they are loving and focused, yes do play hard, do shed amply, but if brushed regularly are manageable, they are laid back and easily managed. Make nice bed partners also, on the friged nights.


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## Ron Bequeath (Feb 6, 2019)

Bluekat2u said:


> Get a llama. It will protect the herd in the pasture with it, and the landowners concern might be alleviated with this solution. My llama keeps the neighbors dogs out of the pasture, otherwise we would have no birds left at all, and you cant allow neighborhood dogs back into your birds area again, once they kill birds they will never ever stop. Ever.


 i had a dalmation  cross and an aussie purebred, both killed the dalmation was his nature aussie was for sport. Broke both of them. The dalmation became the best groundhog dog wiping out 76 in one summer and never would even look at my geese, ducks, guienies, quail, or chickens, after the incident. The aussie now just herds all the animals even after being kicked by the cows a few times.


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## jsteph3919 (Feb 6, 2019)

MyFather'sSheep said:


> My family lives on 12 acres with another family. They have ~12 goats and a Pyrenese. We have ~6 sheep and were going to get an Anatolian to be with them at all times. We were told not to get the Anatolian and that they would get another Pyrenese to run free and gaurd the whole property. We do not feel like our sheep will be protected because 1) the Pyrenese is accustomed to staying with their goats and 2) with ferral dogs, coyotes, and bobcats, we don't think response time will be fast enough with just the two of them running 12 acres with two seperate herds. We think even with the two Pyrenese gaurding the whole property, we need an lsg to stay with our sheep. Are we being unreasonable?


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## jsteph3919 (Feb 6, 2019)

I have 10 acres with 7 goats, 2 cows, 6 chicken and 3 geese with one labradoodle to watch them all. 3 of my goats just had babies. I have never had any issues. There is wooded land all around me.


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## Dee Mini Pigs (Feb 7, 2019)

Hey, hi,
Are you aware or have raised an anotolian shepard dog? Cause if you do not know the breed, be very careful with who you source your pup from. As an experienced Anatolian owner they are hard work and. Although they will protect, they need extreme guardianship, meaning, unless they are to 3 to 5 years of age,even then they depend on direction from you!  you got to watch them. These dogs have served as guard dogs for the Gallipoli War and still serve. There nature is very dependant evenmore  than that of a wild Australia dingo.  I owned one.a bitch. She was loyal, subjective would also command. But....... as soon as they can’t see you they will engage in hunt or very sneaky behaviour, rip clothes up off the line, steal food, jump fences, they are particularly good at jumping fences up to 6 feet. This bitch I had from a pup was not a working dog,just a pet living with  all the rest of the heard. She tried eat my pigs and Then at 7 months , after living with her and teaching her the rules, she decided to go my daughters 11 year old pure bred rag doll cat, owned by her since she sold her motor bike for 1000 dollars. Her love and joy ,, gone, the antonlian got her in a silent kill whilst I was around the corner hanging washing.  I heard not a thing....Your Shepard must be kennelled when not working! I am a lover of all dogs and animals but would really recommend unless you you are in full master ship of your Anatolian and are always home and they are in sight and in control, I would not get one! They are  very sneaky breed with a mind of their own, love Dee


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 7, 2019)

Oh wow - my experience with raising an Anatolian puppy was totally different.  He came to me at 10 weeks and stayed mainly in the yard with another dog for a few months - going out with me to meet the herd and the other dog - a pyr - under supervision.  By 4 months of age he was pretty much full-time in the pasture with his supervisor - the Pyr.  He got rolled a couple of times by mama goats only because he LOVED his goats and wanted to be near them.  He learned which goats loved him back and which didn't in a short amount of time.  He is 100% trustworthy with the babies and will do anything it takes to keep them safe.  He barks at the cats next door just to let me know they are there and then goes back to his goats.  I can honestly say that the only negative behavior was that he didn't respect the fence line and wanted to add acres and acres to his "territory."   An electric fence stopped that and now I couldn't ask for a better guardian for my herd.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 7, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> If they will be running together you will need to make sure they get along.
> 
> What @Baymule said.
> 
> IMO that is too much land for 2 dogs.



Depending on the amount of brush cover and the topography of the property - flat, hilly, wooded - I think that 2 dogs work better and get less stressed when they have back up.

Now, why do you want an Anatolian instead of anther Pyrenees?  We had Pyrenees LGDs for years, a total of 5, and 1 Sar Planinetz.  We did not lose any livestock, they were good workers, friendly with children, sweet tempered with family, good watchdogs, and easy going. 

Now we have 3 Anatolians.  I did a lot of research before buying an Antolian since many have very sharp dispositions and can be aggressive if not trained or socialized.  Properly bred and trained, Anatolians are not any worse than many other LGD breeds.  We have found them to be superior to our Pyrs because they stay with the sheep and do not leave the property.  They all came from one bloodline - a Basque sheep man in Bakersfield who ran his flock on leased government land.  He and several other Basque herders would take a trailer into the mountains and live with about 2000-5000 sheep for the summer.  They had at least 12 Pyrenees to protect the sheep.  These dogs needed to set their own perimeter.  I think this is why we had trouble with our Pyrs roaming - genetically that bloodline wanted to establish further perimeters than our fences.  Our Pyrs were impossible to keep inside our fences.  30 years ago our neighbors did not mind our Pyrs guarding their property from the coyotes, but the neighborhood has changed. Where our other Pyrs climbed over the wire fences, our Anatolians patrol inside them.  They are excellent guardians, and we have had them inside the house at night for family time where they are quiet and relaxed until they hear a threat.  (Our Pyrs resisted coming inside as though being dragged to torture.)  Our first Anatolian had never been around children, she was 18 months when we bought her.  She bonded with the children and adores them.  The others have been raised with my grandchildren and would die to protect them.  Our male used to chase our old barn cat up into the loft - we thought - then we found them cuddled up sleeping together one day.  Apparently the chasing was a game they enjoyed.

The only negative behavior we have had with our Anatolians has been the killing of several hoses, and the destruction of our patio furniture cushions, all by puppies.  They no longer kill hoses, nor do they chew up cushions. We foiled the cushion chewing by purchasing deck boxes and putting the cushions away when not in use.

We do have a large kennel run where we incarcerate our male when strangers are on the property doing work.  Occasionally the female joins him when necessary.  Bubba  has "true Anatolian temperament" which means he doesn't trust strangers, doesn't want them on his property, and may decide to chase them off the property.  Locking the dogs up is for our protection from litigious workmen.  Our dogs are loose on our property with the livestock at all times other than when strangers are working here, which is seldom.  They need to be loose to protect our livestock.  They have never attacked any of our animals.

*However, having said all that, WHAT IS YOUR RENTAL AGREEMENT WITH THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY?*  Are you living in another house on the other side of the open space, or are you all occupying the same house?  Are your sheep in a separate pasture from their goats and is theIr LGD penned with their goats?  

First, ask if the owners will allow you to fence off your house and the pastures and woods that you want your LGD to guard.  If you do this at your own expense, and do it correctly, the owners will probably be agreeable.

Second, all Anatolians want to be dominant.  You can run 2 females of _different_ ages together, or 1 male and 1 female together, but you cannot run 2 males of the same age together or even 1 male Anatolian with another male dog if medium or larger size.  You also cannot run 1 female Anatolian together with another female dog of medium to similar size.  While I love my Anatolians,  they are spaced by several years and gender - Bitch - 6 years, Male - 3 years, bitch - 3 months. You can run more Anatolians if they have their own pastures to patrol.  (You can have a miniature breed as a pet along with your Anatolian.  I don't think Anatolians recognize tiny dogs as dogs!)  Pyrenees, on the other hand, in our experience are not as aggressively dominant as Anatolians and will co-exist with same sex Pyrenees in the same pack.

Third, since the other family has offered to obtain anther Pyrenees LGD, why don't you accept their offer, but ask that the new dog remain in the pasture with _your_ sheep instead of just running loose on the perimeter.  That way you do not have to front the money for a guardian dog yourselves.  Dominance in a dog pack (any number of dogs over 1) is a normal situation that they will establish among themselves.  Pyrenees usually will live alongside each other fairly well.  However, by adding an Anatolian, you increase the risk of fights for dominance.  It is not unknown for Anatolians to fight to the death to establish dominance.

I really suggest that you discuss the possibility of fencing off your portion of the land from theirs, and consider getting a Pyrenees which would decrease the possibility of any antagonistic interaction between the two guardian dogs.  If you move to your own place in the future, you can get an Anatolian then.


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## Rammy (Feb 7, 2019)

Wow! Im impressed! Good post!


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## Dee Mini Pigs (Feb 8, 2019)

Okay, so it comes down to never judge a book by its cover, and thanks friends, after my experience with my anotolain and  having a child loose her best friend  to one, It stil baffles my husband and I as why she did it, she has now on been given to friends that have a bigger property. Thanks for the great reading, Love Dee.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm so sorry @Dee, about your bad experience with your Anatolian.  As with all animals, some are not good specimens, some have poor temperament, or physical problems.  Many breeders (of all breeds and species) are not concerned with breeding for temperament, reliability, and working ability.  That is why I so strongly recommend that people find a_ reputable_ breeder who stands behind their dogs, and who can supply names of satisfied buyers.  These breeders supply advice, back up, and help to the owners who buy their dogs. 

So sorry for your daughter's loss of her special kitty.


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## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks everyone. We had another talk with our friend, and the answer is no on the dog, no to a donkey, no to the other dog being with our animals. In short, we are now looking for our own land.


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## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 11, 2019)

Thanks everyone. We had another talk with our friend, and the answer is no on the dog, no to a donkey, no to the other dog being with our animals. In short, we are now looking for our own land.


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## Rammy (Feb 11, 2019)

MyFather'sSheep said:


> Thanks everyone. We had another talk with our friend, and the answer is no on the dog, no to a donkey, no to the other dog being with our animals. In short, we are now looking for our own land.


I think thats a good idea. If your nit even alliwed to protect your own flock by getting a dig for them, its time to move on. Im sorry you have to move.


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## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 11, 2019)

Rammy said:


> Wow! Im impressed! Good post!


Impresed with what Rammy?


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## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 11, 2019)

Rammy said:


> I think thats a good idea. If your nit even alliwed to protect your own flock by getting a dig for them, its time to move on. Im sorry you have to move.



Yes, it is very surprising to us, as it has been our goal to have sheep and a dog since we got here AND we had a male BelgianMalinois previously while he had his Pyrenese. I just pray the Father leads us to what He has for us!


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## Rammy (Feb 11, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> Depending on the amount of brush cover and the topography of the property - flat, hilly, wooded - I think that 2 dogs work better and get less stressed when they have back up.
> 
> Now, why do you want an Anatolian instead of anther Pyrenees?  We had Pyrenees LGDs for years, a total of 5, and 1 Sar Planinetz.  We did not lose any livestock, they were good workers, friendly with children, sweet tempered with family, good watchdogs, and easy going.
> 
> ...


Im impressed with @Ridgetop's post. She really gave some good info amd advice in this post. I should of quoted this originally. Sorry for the confusion.


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## MyFather'sSheep (Feb 11, 2019)

Rammy said:


> I think thats a good idea. If your nit even alliwed to protect your own flock by getting a dig for them, its time to move on. Im sorry you have to move.



Yes, it is very surprising to us, as it has been our goal to have sheep and a dog since we got here AND we had a male BelgianMalinois previously while he had his Pyrenese. I just pray the Father leads us to what He has for us!


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## SonRise Acres (Feb 11, 2019)

MyFather'sSheep said:


> Thanks everyone. We had another talk with our friend, and the answer is no on the dog, no to a donkey, no to the other dog being with our animals. In short, we are now looking for our own land.



Wow! Well now you know this is not a workable situation. I am sorry it came to this, but glad you are formulating a plan.


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## Baymule (Feb 11, 2019)

Your own place, you can do what you need to without having to ask permission. 

It has been my experience that life throws up roadblocks, but our Father will clear the way.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 11, 2019)

Just as well to find out now before you invest in fencing property that is not yours.  Save your money for your own property and your own fencing.  You will find a place where you are meant to be, and your experiences with your sheep will be even more valuable there.

In what area of the country are you located?


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## Daxigait (Feb 22, 2019)

if they want to add the second dog and you want to put in a llama that might be a good choice. I like my llama's because they eat the same thing as the animals and stay with them.
I said llamas cuz I have a gelded male with each group.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 25, 2019)

If you go the llama route. make sure that they are gelded!  We adopted 2 male llamas some years ago to help our LGDs.  One was gelded and the other was not.  The adoption society assured us that ungelded llamas were safe to handle and that the ungelded male would not act any different than the gelded male.  After kidding season the ungelded male tried to mount our dairy does!  The smell from giving birth made him think they were in heat.  Luckily we saw him chasing them and trying to mount them in time to prevent serious injury.  We shoved him in the trailer and whisked him off to the vet for castration.  He could have seriously injured our does instead of some slight bruising and scratches.  First introduction to llamas.  Also, make sure they are halter broken.  The gelded male had been a 4-H project and was a delight.  The other required more work to capture and restrain when the vet came or we needed to confine him.  Once caught in a small pen and haltered, he led and trailered.  The 4-H project would allow you to walk up to him and pet him, halter him, etc.  The adoption society made us adopt 2 - they would not allow us to just take the friendly one.  Probably because they knew that no one else would adopt him.  Since we did not know anything about llamas we did not know that the 4-H pet would have been fine as the only llama in with our goats and sheep.  LOL


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