# Tell me about navel ill.  Which antibiotic?



## Our7Wonders (Jul 11, 2011)

I have been dealing with one issue after another.  I should be due for some relief soon, but none is in sight yet.  

The littlest new guy is still having issues.  He's eating normally - playing, etc.  But still not pooping normally.  I watch him for at least an hour after his bottles.  Never poops.  His herd-mates usually poop two or three times within that time.  Him: Nada.  He pees but doesn't poop.  So I get to enema the kid at least once a day.  Just warm soapy water.  I can usually get him to produce a little after several soapy water inserts.  But it's very little.  He seems to nibble regularly on hay and on bushes and weeds when I let him out.  He also gets three 10oz. bottles each day.  His bottles are 50/50 goat milk/vit D whole milk - no replacer at all.  I've been adding a tsp of corn syrup to one bottle each day hoping it will help get things rolling - so far no go.

I noticed a smell yesterday- couldn't pin point where it was coming from.  I could smell it on my hands after I had handled the goats.  A sour smell.  Tonight, after little guy's enema I could really smell that smell again.  I checked his tummy and its swollen around his umbillical stump - and smelly - like infection.  It has been one thing after another with him.  He's three weeks old now and I was just about to start his cocci prevention.  I know it's been mentioned that cocci will occasionally present with constipation rather than scours - I was hoping treating him might get him pooping again.  Now I don't know if I should start it since I'll likely need to start a long round of antibiotics for navel ill.

So tell me, what do I need to do for this?  I have Pen G and biomycin (I think that's what it is - the one like LA-200 but without the sting).  I have a feed store close by that has some meds, though not as many as I think they should.  Can I do some topical cleaning as well?  I have a vet that I can likely get an Rx from if it's necessary.  He's not all that goat knowledgable but with obvious symptoms I think he'll be willing to help.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2011)

Bless your heart you're really running the goat gauntlet, aren't you?  

I'd be dipping the navel in 7% iodine (not gentle) and giving antibiotics.  I've never dealt w/ it (suspected but never sure).

Here's the info I found...
http://www.goatwisdom.com/ch1baby_care/navel_ill.html

http://members4.boardhost.com/goatlady/msg/1207051309.html

Both recommend treating w/ pen g...but fiasco suggests biomycin (oxytetracycline).  
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/medications.htm#oxytetracycline

Just remember you can't switch off between pen g and oxytet so whichever you go with, stick with...

Good luck!


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 11, 2011)

And when you dip his navel area make sure to really get it up all the way to the top against his belly.  You can use a film canister filled 1/2 way with the 7% iodine, and bounce it up against his stomach (holding it firmly to his belly) so it gets all the way up there.  If you're by yourself, you can hold his hips in between your knees and use one hand to hold under his chest, then use your other hand to dip.  Good luck!


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 11, 2011)

Some of what I read said PenG isn't all that effective anymore and that oxytetracycline works better.  Fiasco Farm does say to use the oxytet for navel ill - but in the same section it says to NOT use on goats who are nursing or on the bottle because milk makes it ineffective.  Aren't most cases of navel ill in baby goats who would obviously be on milk?  

Then another site says that the milk making it ineffective isn't true - does anyone know for sure?  I want to get him started on something right away but really don't know which one.  

Sorry to always be so needy!


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 11, 2011)

I've never successfully treated navel ill.  The sheep 201 website says to use long acting pen.  I'd start with that.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks - I think that's what I'm going to do - too many inconsistancies surrounding the oxytet.  

I've gotta say, though, I'm really freaked out about injecting an antibiotic.  The possibility of hitting a vein scares the crap out of me.  It's suggested that you use an 18 guage needle, which is fairly good sized.  How do you miss all the little tiny veins that run in these guys?  Eeeek - I've gotta do it because I know he needs it but I think I need a big shot of courage first.  

Any possibility of pen being given orally?  Not likely, huh?  I've never seen it suggested that way so I'm assuming not.  2x/day for 7 days - that's alot of shots.

Did I mention this freaks me out?  Yeah, I admit it, I'm a wuss.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 11, 2011)

I just found the below info.  What do you think?  Any possibility?  I've given plenty of other injections SubQ - the PenG just freaks me out.  I'm a big baby.

Brand Name:  Penicillin 
Active Ingredient(s):  Procaine Penicillin G 
Availability:  OTC 
Withdrawal:  8 days before slaughter; 48hr. milk discard 
Indications:  
 Penicillin is effective against local and systematic infections such as Streptococcus, Clostridium, Staphylococcus, and Salmonella. Also it is very effective against anaerobic organisms. Can be given IM, SQ, *PO*, as a mammary infusion, and topically.  
Dosage:  5,000-15,000IU/1lb 
Goat Notes:  Effective on gram positive and limited gram negative bacteria. Goats require larger doses than other animals. Adult goats should receive an initial dose of 10cc and follow up doses of 7-8cc. Never give more than 5cc in each injection site. Can be given IM, SQ (most preferred method) *or PO*.  
Brand Name:  Pen BP-48 
Active Ingredient(s):  Penicillin G benzathine & Penicillin G Procaine 
Availability:  OTC 
Withdrawal:  30 days before slaughter 
Indications:  
 FDA approved for gram positive bacterial infections and black leg (Clostridium Chauvoei) in cattle.  
Dosage:  2ml/150lbs body weight - IM or SQ 
Goat Notes:  5cc-10cc for adult goats (5cc IM; rest SQ)


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 11, 2011)

That is what I use, 1cc per 15lbs, twice a day. The plain Penn G, not the longer acting. 

If you are worried about all the veins, give it in her/his bottom instead of the neck, in the fleshy part of the leg. I use a 20gauge on the smaller kids, but an 18 is probably better for the Penn G. 

 I tuck them under my left arm, with their head facing to the back of me, and prop my left leg up on a chair or ledge, and lay the baby over the top of my leg so their bottom is facing toward the left, and then use my left hand to steady the back leg and stick in the needle with my right hand. 
If that makes any sense. 


I have given lots and lots of shots. You will be fine.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2011)

I have given loads of shots, pen g, vaccines, bo se, etc....and other than the ouchie stingy ones where the meds burn, I've never hurt a goat yet...99.9% of the time I do it in the 'butt cheek'.  YOU CAN DO IT!

The label you described is for short acting...Which is what I use.  If you decide to go w/ long acting, it usually has a name like Combi-Pen or some such.  
It won't have 'Procaine G' on the label.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 11, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> If you are worried about all the veins, give it in her/his bottom instead of the neck, in the fleshy part of the leg.


So do you to give it IM instead of subQ?


And I'll have to check in my fridge downstairs, but I'm pretty sure I ordered just plain ordinary Pen G from jefferslivestock.  I'll have to go look.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 11, 2011)

I've given thousands of shots to all kinds of animals and I've never hit a vein on accident (only when I was giving IV meds! ) and I've never had a bad reaction (like anaphylaxis).  Don't worry, just do it.


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## DonnaBelle (Jul 11, 2011)

We just started with the IM injections just above the back leg armpit in the big part of the leg.  I am tired of having abcesses, especially from CD & T.\

We just took Annie to the vet to have 2 abcesses lanced. I JUST KNEW IT WAS CL.  It was injection site abcesses.

We used a l/2 inch needle and stuck it straight in and went for it.  And we stuck it in that nasty tempered rescue goat who is pregnant, she's so hateful, I'll never know how she got that way.

DonnaBelle


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 11, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, IM, I just find that big thick chunk of muscle on the back leg in the the inner thigh area, and stab it into there. LIke the doctor says, bend over and then a jab. Yah, like that.  I have a tendency to go up a little too high towards the top of the leg,and my husband fusses at me and says I need to be down lower and make sure I get it in the fleshy inner part of the leg. Does that make sense???


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 11, 2011)

Well he survived his first PenG injection.  Only 13 more to go.   It was harder on me than it was on him.  18g needles seem very big to me.

My heads spinning from all the contradictory info out there on how to give the injection.  No matter what way you want to give it there's an article out there saying do NOT give it that way.

The bottle says ONLY give it IM.  GoatWisdom (I think it was that one, I read several so I could be wrong) says they don't recommend giving it IM, only subQ.  Or give an initial dose IM then all the others SubQ.  Or if you give it IM be sure to use a different spot each time.  What?  14 doses?  How do I give that in a different spot each time?  And of course watch out you don't paralyze your goat by giving it in the wrong spot and my personal favorite:  "Remember Penicillins can be fatal if injected into the bloodstream".  

I'm officially afraid of my goat.  All 13 pounds of him.

Anyway, he made it through his 1cc dose.  I'm already dreading giving it to him tonight.  I'm planning 1cc 2x daily for 7 days, sound about right?  I'll try to post a pic of his belly later.  It looks like he's got a half a golf ball under the belly button.  I cleaned it well and saturated the whole area with Iodine 7%.  How often should I reapply the iodine?

Good news?  I took his temp - no fever, 103* on the dot.  And also good news (sorta?!) is that as soon as I put the thermometer in he pooped - on his own.  Looks like the silver lining is that at least for today I can skip the enema.

Goats.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 11, 2011)

Honestly, I just grab them up and what ever end is sticking out and what ever side is the handiest is where I stick the needle.  IM is better if you want the drug to work fast. If you are sick and need a antibiotic shot, the doctor isn't going to give it to you sub-q.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2011)

Yep.  I've been poking goats in the butt (IM shots) for YEARS...then I joined here and found out I was doing it 'wrong'...
Since it has been working well for us for 12+ years, I didn't see any reason to change things now.  I continue to just jab and go on to the next one.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 12, 2011)

I give vaccines in back legs sometimes, but I prefer the neck.  If you want to sell market animals you should avoid giving shots in legs because it causes blemishes in the meat.


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## helmstead (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm one of those "SQ for Pen G" people .  For some reason I have no problem giving Pen G IM to a horse, but a baby goat (which is all I use Pen G on)...dunno...just not enough muscle/too much squirming for me to do a blood check, push the med, and feel good about not having just mainlined the dose.

The good news is, and LOL at Roll...there is no wrong way to dose Pen G except IV.  All of the delivery methods _work_.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh, and want to hear how I learned to give injections?  I was probably 11 yrs old and in 4-H, and the livestock lady had us practice on oranges.  Wipe with alcohol, then just jab.  She did tell us to pull back on the plunger to look for blood, but that's about it.    So if 11 yr olds can do it with instructions like that, surely YOU can do it, O7W!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 12, 2011)

I bet it is easier with some breeds than others, Those big meaty boer kids have plenty of back leg muscle.


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## redtailgal (Jul 12, 2011)

.


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## helmstead (Jul 12, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I bet it is easier with some breeds than others, Those big meaty boer kids have plenty of back leg muscle.


Yuh...the miniatures aren't quite so easy LOL


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