# Does Hot Sauce Really Work? (Pics of baby goats and LGD pups)



## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 25, 2014)

Clyde and Angel, our two LGD pups, have been remarkably good for their first kidding season.  The pictures below are how they are with the baby goats about 95% of the time...












 (usually more interested in playing with each other and the cat than chasing baby goats).  

However, the past few days, they've decided to take up chasing the newest and/or weakest additions to the herd.  Other than running them to exhaustion and slobbering on them, they haven't injured them in any way, but I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before one of the kids is really hurt.  When looking at older posts for some ideas, I came across this one: http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lgds-chasing-goats-poll.27376/.  In particular, I noticed the comment about putting hot sauce on the backs and shoulders of the baby goats. I've heard of this before and was wondering how well it works, and also whether or not the sauce hurts the baby goats' skin.

We don't keep bucks, so we can't put the pups in a buck pen.  They're very bonded with the goats and our adult LGD, Miller, so I'd prefer not to remove them.

Side note, Miller is such a great dog!  He gets after them for chasing the babies too, and this morning when they were being particularly naughty and I had to tell them "No" 4 different times (usually they stop the first time), he came over to where we were.  I was obviously stressed; I had to get to work, but I wanted to be sure baby goats were safe.  The puppies were just about to try for round 5 when Miller looked at me, then gave them the firm, alpha "knock it off" bark/growl.  They stopped in their tracks.  Then, LOL, he picked up a squeaky toy, wagged his tail and encouraged the pups to go and play with him.  They ran after him and he played with them until they were so tired, they curled up in the loafing shed with the goats and fell asleep.  I love that dog!!! 




Miller with his goats.  Best LGD ever!!!  So glad he's training Clyde and Angel.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 25, 2014)

You can try the sauce methods. This is the only place I have read of it working for someone.
@Pips recommends the tire method. We have never needed to use the tire and through our woods it would be impractical. Although it can be effective. Unfortunately these dogs are very smart and know when they are attached and when they are not.

Personally I don't like pups in with kids unless a) consistent correction from parent stock or the kids/lambs parents are good at correction. b) the pups can be pretty well supervised which requires you to be on the farm full time.

In our program we allow pups 2x daily "outside" of livestock areas. These times are just so they can get their energy out and play, we are with them and they get to run run run. Morning is about 15-20 minutes. They are getting lots of people time and by 16weeks we take the afternoon "out -time" to do basic obedience. They enjoy their obedience time and it will get their energy out. We do not promote overtraining. This prevents boredom. 

Eventually we move to evening out time only.


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

I agree with Southern.  I have never heard of Sauce working for anyone.  Some sprays on goats and chickens can work if you use other methods as well.  I am a fan of the tire, rope and harness ... seems to work every time.  You may find as Southern suggests, that you take it off after a few weeks and they start again, just put it back on.  It can't be too heavy mind, guardians can suffer from elbow and hip dyp and it is just to slow them down.  once they are 6-12 months that concern is no longer an issue however. 

I do believe that the younger of the herd teach LGDs a little better though, somehow, not sure why.  Having them around the young seems to get them to learn quicker. 

Overtraining is poor, however, corrective training by itself you can do for much longer periods.  Sometimes you need to break the "habit barrier" and it can take days if not weeks, these breeds can be really VERY stubborn


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 25, 2014)

Although I work 40 hours a week, I do work from home, so I have some flexibility with my schedule.  Thanks for the advice!  I'll try the 'outside the goat yard' play time and see if that helps, but I wouldn't mind more information on the the tire, rope, harness option.  I have an idea of what that would entail, but is it safe when you have two puppies that enjoy wrestling with each other?  Seems like they might get hurt...


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Southerns approach sounds great and worth trying although I have never done this myself.
Put a padded harness on your puppy & connect a lead, flexi-lead stops jarring (like a bungie), other side goes on a tire. Tire size and weight depending on the puppy.  You leave it on for a few hours a day while the puppy is in with the stock, not much longer.   If they are older like 10 months plus you can leave it on all day (heat corrective work for older dogs).   I would not suggest multiple dogs on tires at the same time in the same closure true.  Usually takes  a week or two for it to work, replace back on if they start chasing again.  Watch for rubbing on the fur though and younger pups should have it on for 20 mins max at the start then graduate to 1-2 hours.   Even if they have stopped chasing leave it on for an extra week and the behaviour of not running after stock should start to become habitual.  Never leave the pup with the stock without it until she has proven she does not chase.  Note with smaller animals you must consider if the tire hits one of them would it do damage.  Sometimes a heavier tire is needed to prevent this from happening, but then a shorter time on the tire, much shorter.  Chicks and lambs and the such should not be in the enclosure.  They should be able to walk pulling but running should be quite hard, almost impossible.


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