# Joey's crooked legs, pics.



## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

So I milked Penny and put the colostrum in a bottle and the first baby eagerly ate about 4 ounces. They don't try to nurse their mom, he sucks at the walls of the stall. The youngest one, the weaker one, was trying to nurse when he first was born, by crawling on his belly to his mom, but he never latched on. She never cleaned him well at all. Just his head. 
Now he won't try to nurse on the bottle at all, and there is rattling in his lungs. 
I have given him 5cc of B Complex, and am putting Nutrical on his tongue. I don't know what else to do. I have brought him in the house to keep him warm and to offer him colostrum every little while. Any suggestions?


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## ksalvagno (Apr 15, 2012)

Did the kid get any colostrum? Maybe he got some in his lungs. Do you have Banamine? I would give him a shot of Banamine. That can help with any inflammation.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

We tried to squirt some in his mouth with a syringe. I hope to God that we didn't do it! I think I do have some paste Banamine, would that be OK? I just hate to lose him, he is gorgeous. But he is rattling and just doesn't even try to drink the bottle at all anymore. He did try to suck when he was first born. If he has any colostrum in his belly, it is only an ounce or so.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm not sure about the paste. I have only used the injectible.


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## Jenni (Apr 15, 2012)

You need to go slow with the syringe. I used a 3cc syringe on Lily's weak baby and gave him 1/2cc at a time.  Give him time to swallow before giving more.  He will wear most of it, but you will get some in him.  Try every hour.  Keep him very warm.  When he's a little stronger you can work on his suck reflex.  Good luck.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

Here is the first buckling born when he was about 15 minutes old.....








Here is the second baby born, she left him this way. I toweled him down and took him inside and used the blow dryer on him.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

Jenni said:
			
		

> You need to go slow with the syringe. I used a 3cc syringe on Lily's weak baby and gave him 1/2cc at a time.  Give him time to swallow before giving more.  He will wear most of it, but you will get some in him.  Try every hour.  Keep him very warm.  When he's a little stronger you can work on his suck reflex.  Good luck.


I can use a syringe since he won't drink. I just want colostrum in him. He's giving up I think, he just won't suck at all. Did you save your weak baby? And what about the rattling in his lungs? He's in a dog crate in the house and there is a space heater close to his crate. He's warm and snuggly right now.


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## Jenni (Apr 15, 2012)

Does he have any discharge coming out his nose?  Coughing?  I would keep trying dribbles of milk from Mom and give him lots of stimulation.  Get him up and walking, rub his body.  Is he with his brother?


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

No he isn't with his brother now, I brought him in the house cause he was so cold and weak. I just gave him about 1cc of colostrum one tiny bit at a time. He kind of fought me but he did swallow it. I make sure he is not laying flat and I rub him and talk to him. He has no discharge but he does try to cough. And I can hear the crap rattling when he does. I think she didn't take the sack off him, and he got some liquid in his lungs. I don't know if he can win this. 

how long can I keep the colostrum we milked from the doe before I have to freeze it? I got about a quart out of her to give to the babies, I am heading back out now to see if his brother will drink some more but I sure don't want to waste any of it.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 15, 2012)

As he warms up he should get more of a sucking reflex, Instead of milk, give him warm strong black coffee mixed with corn syrup, 5 to 10 cc's,  just add enough coffee to make the corn syrup a little thinner. I normally let them rest for 30 to 45 minutes after that, while they warm up some more, and then try again. 


I always just use a 3cc syringe on a weak kid, instead of a bottle. 




Do you have Bo-se?


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## Jenni (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm sorry he's having such a hard time. He might need some antibiotics if he keeps the rattle.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 15, 2012)

After the first shot of corn syrup and coffee, I normally mix some corn syrup with some mother's milk and work on getting 10 to 15cc into the kid using a 3cc syringe, and just dripping it into the back of his mouth, hopefully he decides it tastes good and starts sucking it right out of the syringe. When I have 1/2 ounce or 15 cc into him( abouat 10 of milk and 5 of corn syrup) I then give him around an 1 hour or 1 1/2 hours to rest and digest,


Good luck. Going to be a long night for you. I wouldn't give up putting him back on mom tomorrow and getting him nursing on her. She may have tried to get him up but couldn't, but she could already be bonded and more than glad to have him back once he is a little stronger.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

She's not paying much attention to the one she still has. I just went out and fed him another 4 oz of colostrum, he ate it like crazy. He was kind of chilled, even with the heat lamp so put a sweater on him. If he cries she kind of baahs to him, but she doesn't go look for him or anything so I am sure he hasn't nursed off her. 

I will try that 20K, with the corn syrup and just keep offering it to him. I'm going to milk her again and make sure I have enough colostrum to keep them both going since I don't think the one I left with her is nursing. Ahhh yes..... a long night indeed. I just want to save him is all. I hate to wait all this time and lose them. Thanks for your help, it's like I'm starting all over again, after the kidding rush in January, and this is with an older doe that is supposed to be such a wonderful mother! My first timers did better.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 15, 2012)

When I was trying to feed him he blew snot out of his nose.....  I have some SMZs and I have him 1/4 of a tablet. I figure any antibiotic is better than none. I wish I knew how to tube a baby goat, to get colostrum in him.


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## mydakota (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't have any advice to offer, but I am sure pulling for you.


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## drdoolittle (Apr 16, 2012)

I hope both babies are doing o.k. now.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 16, 2012)

Hopefully, things are going better this morning. But her is directions, just in case.   If anything I would copy and save them for the future. 


Tube feeding
Goat kids are fun to raise, but like any animal they do sometimes get sick. When a young kid is too sick to nurse or suck a bottle, sometimes you have to feed him through a feeding tube that is put directly in their stomach. Sometimes they are found just to weak to swallow, and need warm fluids to revive them. Tubing a kid if done correctly is preferable to using a syringe to squirt the liquid in their mouths. This keeps the kids from aspirating any medication or milk, which could lead to pneumonia or death. Aspirate means to inhale into the lungs. Without intervention a kid that is too weak to nurse will not survive long. 
There are several different diseases and conditions that can cause a kid goat not to be able to nurse. The first is finding a newborn that has been chilled, or gotten to cold before it could be dried off and nurse. This is an emergency situation and steps must be taken immediately to warm the kid and prevent death. E. Coli is a disease that causes severe diarrhea and dehydration. Goat kids are also susceptible to Coccidia, and other parasites. Sometimes kids have oxygen deprivation due to dystocia, which is misrepresentation at birth. These kids need to be tube fed to provide essential nutrients until the kid has time to heal. Thiamin deficiency polio, Enterotoxemia, and Floppy kid also leave a kid unable to nurse. 
First step is to gather your supplies. Decide what you need to tube your goat with. Does the kid need Colostrum? Electrolytes, B Vitamins, probiotics, goat milk or milk replacer can also be used. For a newborn kid, I would not suggest giving more than 2-4 ounces of any fluid at one time. An older kid you can give 4 - 6 ounces of fluids at a time, depending on his size. You will need a feeding tube and 60cc syringe with an irrigation tip. These can be obtained from the vet or anywhere they sell veterinarian supplies. The tube enables you to put the fluids directly into the kid's rumen. The Syringe is used to hold the fluid before it travels down the tube. You will also need a cup of clean warm water, and a small syringe 3 cc or 12 cc work fine. Finally you will need a bowl or something to clean your equipment up in, disinfectant, and hot water. 
The first step, after assembling your supplies is to measure how far you need to insert the tube. Measure from the kid's nose, to the center of the ear, and back down to the chest floor. Mark the tube at this point. This is the maximum depth you need to insert the tube. Hold the kid securely, and dip the end of the tube in water to soften it. Insert the tube from the center of the kid's mouth, over the tongue, and down the throat till you reach the mark. You should be able to feel the tube pass down the esophagus. You can feel it down the side of the trachea or windpipe. The kid should be still able to cry with the tube inserted. If the kid is awake and crying, and suddenly stops while you are inserting the tube, withdraw the tube until it can cry and try again. It is very important that you get the tube in the correct spot. If you pour fluids in the kid's lungs, he will die. 
There are several different ways you can make sure the tube is in the right spot. Smell the end of the tube; you should smell stomach smells - like old milk. Remember a newborn is not ruminating so you will not smell rumen smells. Listen at the end of the tube; you should her little crackles, not breath sounds. If you hear breath sounds withdraw the tube. Another way to make sure is to stick the end of the tube into a cup of water. If it blows bubbles you are in the lungs. A similar check is to blow lightly into the tube. Watch the kids and make sure the lungs don't inflate when you blow. 
Before you add the syringe. Pour 3-5 cc of water in the tube. A small 3 cc or 12 cc syringe works well for this. If the tube is in the trachea the kid should cough. If it is in the esophagus he should still be able to cry. But, be extremely careful if the kid is completely flat or comatose. A comatose kid can not swallow, cry or may not even cough. His reflexes are not working. Rely on checking for breath sounds and bubbles. If the kid is comatose he needs to be revived quickly, such as the case of a chilled down kid. Time is an important factor, if you don't get warm fluids and sugars into the kid quickly he will die. 
Attach the syringe to the end of the tube. I like to just use the outside of the syringe and let gravity push the fluids into the kid's rumen. This prevents you from pushing the fluids in too fast. When you have completed your checks and are sure that the tube is in the correct place, add 5cc of water in the syringe. The water should flow freely down the tube. If not withdraw the tube about a 2" and push it back in. The tube may be against the wall of the stomach or kinked. If the water flows down the tube without resistance, slowly add 2 -3 ounces of fluid into the syringe. Let gravity push the fluid down the tube, hold the syringe up above the kid's head. This is easier done with two people until you get accustomed to the procedure. 
After all the fluids have flowed out of the syringe, add 10 cc water to rinse the syringe. This prevents any medications or milk from accidentally being aspirated by the kid when the tube is being removed. A kid can survive if he aspirates a little water it will be absorbed by the lungs. Milk in the lungs is likely to cause pneumonia. Remove the syringe from the end of the tube. If you cover the end of the tube while it is being removed it will keep any fluid left in the tube from leaking out and being aspirated. Just like if you hold your thumb over a straw and remove it from your soda. The soda stays in the straw. Remove the tube slowly, don't pull it out fast or jerk it. This can damage the soft tissues. Place the kid down on his brisket, sitting up, never laying on its side. If the kid is flat, from floppy kid, or is comatose from being cold, roll a towel or rag up to prop his head on. This way if they cough up any fluids, they will not aspirate any into their lungs. 
Gather all your supplies immediately place the tube and syringe in a bowl of soapy hot water, we use a disinfectant such as Nolvason or betadine. Clean all equipment and rinse well. We wash all of our tubing equipment in a stainless steal bowl, then pour boiling water on it to help sterilize it. Be careful not to burn yourself. 
Newborn kids need to be fed every 2 - 4 hours. Especially if they are sick. Frequent small amounts of nutritious fluids are preferred over large amounts more infrequently. This is especially for kids that are sick


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 16, 2012)

How is it going?


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

Morning! Well, I have to say so far better with the little guy in the house. last night around 10:30 he finally drank 2 oz colostrum from the bottle. He woke up in the middle of the night and had about that much again, this morning at 6 he drank 4. He is still rattling but I honestly even think that sounds better. I am calling my vet this morning for some liquid antibiotics the tech told me about last night. 

Thanks for the tubing instructions, I will print them. I think in a situation like this, tubing would be the best. His mom didn't clean him, I think he had the sack on too long. We were outside checking on her every hour because she was staying in the barn, but she most likely decided to have them right after my last check! But we were in the next pen and heard the babies crying right away, so were right there. 

His little legs appear to be bowed over at the knees. Makes it hard for him to stand. I think the doe should have had another shot of selenium. I gave her one the day we picked her up because all of their coats were rough and they could all use weight. I am thinking now I should have done another. I will do that today with the other 6. 
Thanks for all your help here. This forum is a wonderful place! So many knowledgeable people and so willing to help others out with their information and support. 
I will keep updating, as the day goes on. I am mostly concerned now about the rattling in his lungs, as now he wants to eat at least.


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## AdoptAPitBull (Apr 16, 2012)

If you have the Selenium paste, you can give him a little of that mixed in his bottle.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 16, 2012)

I would for sure be giving those other does another shot of selenium.  Are you saying the other 6 are all from the same farm?  If that is the case and they are due with in the next 6 weeks or so, I would put them on a round of tetracyclene in the water, or 4G in the feed or oxy-tetracyclene shots(5 days worth).


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## ksalvagno (Apr 16, 2012)

If you can get meds from the vet, I would be getting a bottle of Banamine, BoSe and Nuflor or Excede. The Banamine will help with the rattling in his lungs if the problem was colostrum going down the wrong pipe.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I would for sure be giving those other does another shot of selenium.  Are you saying the other 6 are all from the same farm?  If that is the case and they are due with in the next 6 weeks or so, I would put them on a round of tetracyclene in the water, or 4G in the feed or oxy-tetracyclene shots(5 days worth).


yes, we bought all 7 does from the same place, all bred to the same buck. The younger ones aren't in as poor of shape as Penny but still rough coated and thin compared to my does. We got them a month ago, gave them all Bo-Se and wormed them the next day. Also gave them the pneumonia shot. 
Planning on giving them the Bo-Se shots this afternoon when the kids get home to help. What is the tetracyclene in the water for?


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> If you can get meds from the vet, I would be getting a bottle of Banamine, BoSe and Nuflor or Excede. The Banamine will help with the rattling in his lungs if the problem was colostrum going down the wrong pipe.


I have Banamine paste, will that work? And I have Bo-Se, gave him 1 cc sub-q last night when he was born. My daughter works at the vet clinic so if there is anything else that would help him, she can get it for me.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

This is the house baby, last night after I got him to eat a little from the syringe. 









This is the barn baby this morning. He is doing really well, but will only eat from a bottle. We hold him up to his mama and it's like her nipples are too big for his mouth or something. He won't nurse but chugs a bottle right down.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 16, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

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It is for treating kidding diseases like chlamydia and enterotoxemia, but we have found that it really helps with overall health of the kids and having more evenly sized kids at birth. Even if they don't have a kidding disease(bacteria) it may help with the kids overall health and weight. 

It is also common for big farms that bring in new stock to treat all new animals with tetracyclene.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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Awesome! I will run to town and pick some up and get it in their water.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 16, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

> This is the house baby, last night after I got him to eat a little from the syringe.
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They are nice thick kids, unfortunately her udder problems are probably why they sold her. Sounds like she has blown teats. I would look for a repeat of problems next time she kids.  At least she has lots of milk for them. keep milking her and trying to get the kids to nurse on her. Unless you don't mind bottle babies.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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Aha....that makes sense. We bought 6 does and she kind of threw this one in the group. Said she has nice big kids and they always make good market wethers but she has a sister of hers so she could let her go. But you are probably right. None of mine have teats like that and I had never heard of it before. I don't MIND bottle babies, had 3 the first set in January, but it sure does take up a lot of your life. I'd much rather she would nurse them but i think after i'vbe had them on the bottle, that's not gonna happen. We keep trying though. Gonna take the house baby to the barn so she doesn't turn on him, and try to keep him with his brother. They are in the barn in a stall and have a heat lamp so I think he'll be ok, if not he'll have to come back in.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 16, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

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I purchased a 6 year old doe with blown teats, knowing I would probably have to bottle feed.  Hoping to get a couple nice does out of her. So far I have Gotten Little B out of her, it is Aunt B in some of my recently posted photos of does yet to kid. She has a terrible udder, I am hoping from poor management and not from genetics, I guess I will find out. Little B is expecting her first kids this month or next. Thought she would make a nice wether maker.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

Took Joey into the vet, the vet tech there raises Boer goats also. They listened to his lungs and said they are clear. He has sinus congestion, sucked some stuff into his nose but didn't make it to his lungs, thank God for that! He weighs 8.8 pounds. His brother is bigger. They said he is ready to go back out to the barn with his mama and brother, just keep an eye on him. Well, he isn't going to nurse, I already know that. His brother won't either, so I guess I will milk her and feed them. Last night I wasn't going to hold out much hope for him making it. But getting him warm and getting some colostrum in him sure helped. When he wanted the bottle at 10:30 I knew we were seeing a little daylight.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 16, 2012)

So glad he is doing better and things are looking  up for you. Thankful that you didn't loose him and it wasn't anything worse. Congrats on the babies and now you have some experience under your belt.  I am still waiting for my first time mom and me to go through this.   Beautiful babies. Congrats again!


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 16, 2012)

Thank you! Joey just ate 4 ounces so he is getting an appetite. I just get so scared I am going to do something wrong or not know a situation is bad when it is. This forum is great, so many people help with their experience. Looking forward to hearing about your babies, every single one is so exciting to me!


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## Jenni (Apr 16, 2012)

Glad to hear he's doing better!  You're doing a great job!


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 17, 2012)

Here's a pic of Joey's front legs. I didn't get one from the front, and this morning he can stand up a little taller and is trying to walk around and I noticed that one seems to be also bowed out sideways. This was taken last night. If I can get more today I'll post them. 

I gave him Bo-Se the night he was born. He's back out in the barn so he can move around more, with his brother and mom. I don't know what else to do. The tech that looked at him said they should straighten up in a day or 2, but I don't know. They seem pretty bad to me.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

The tech is right, they will straighten up, but I have had a couple that took a couple weeks to really start looking better. One of our kids on Dancer had very crooked front legs and even at 4 or 5 weeks old we were still doubting if they would straighten up enough for him to ever be used for anything other than meat. He is now scheduled to be weighed in as one of my son's show wethers, he is really looking nice.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 17, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> The tech is right, they will straighten up, but I have had a couple that took a couple weeks to really start looking better. One of our kids on Dancer had very crooked front legs and even at 4 or 5 weeks old we were still doubting if they would straighten up enough for him to ever be used for anything other than meat. He is now scheduled to be weighed in as one of my son's show wethers, he is really looking nice.


Seriously? Did you do anything for him other than Bo-Se? I have read where people put toilet paper rolls on their legs but then how on earth do they bend their legs to lay down?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

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We do on occasion, wrap thick shop paper towels around their legs and add an extra thickness right by the joint that keeps bending the wrong way and then duct tape it in place. Honestly I don't know if it helps or not or just makes us feel like we are trying to do something for them. Our vet said it is best to leave it alone and just let them use it and the tendons will strengthen, I just can't stand watching them drag it around and struggle to walk. 

Wondering if I have some photos?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

I am searching for photos, so far I came across this one, they are around 5 to 7 days old, it is the buckling in the back of the photo. We had already taken the tape off his front leg.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

I had forgotten how weak his back legs were also. He is 3 or 4 days in this photo and still barely getting around.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

He is the buckling on the right and you can see how knobby his front legs are. 







Here he is laying down, His front legs looked huge, like they were deformed.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

and here he is a couple weeks ago, So maybe 6 weeks old, still maybe a little knobby-kneed looking, but this weekend we were looking at them, and my husband didn't recognize him and his legs look pretty much normal.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 17, 2012)

Awww, the pics of his back legs make me feel so bad for him. Joey's are just in the front, although one of his back legs looks really straight up and down through the hock area but only once in a while. I think it kind of pops out or something depending on how he stands. Now that I see yours in the last photo, his knees look like Joey's brother, his knees are a little knobby kneed looking. I would have trouble watching him try to move with casts or wraps on his front legs and see no way he could fold his legs to lay down, and he has to lay down. 

Joey was still kind of weak last night and when he'd try to stand, his little shoulders would sink down and his shoulder blades would stick out so bad they looked deformed too! Today he is stronger and holding his body up better. When I look at the pic I took of him in the house when he was only a couple of hours old, his eyes looked so tired and there were wrinkles in his facial skin. He really wasn't doing good and needed some fluids. He looks so much better now. 

But neither kid will try to nurse. We take them both to mom before we offer them the bottle, Zach walks around her and sometimes ACTS like he is feeling some instinct to bump on mom but he never does. She is a good mom and talks to them all the time, but he just won't nurse. We hold him to her nipple and he won't try but latches right onto the bottle. 

Thanks for the pics, they look so much like what Joey is dealing with. So maybe he will straighten up too. I know with young colts we used to have born with crooked legs, my husband always gave them Bo-Se and then trimmed their feet on whatever side it needed it, kept toes low on the ones with contracted tendons and I have pics of knocked knees colts that almost touched when they were born, and as yearlings you never knew they had a crooked leg!


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 17, 2012)

As far as getting them to nurse, you will pretty much need to let them get hungry,and then stick the nipple in their mouth and squirt the milk into their mouth, It is a frustrating job, my husband is better at it than I am. You have to get them down on their front knees, to do this. They often figure it out after a couple different tries, We go out every 2 or 3 hours and keep repeating this until they are nursing. They just have to be convinced that is where the milk is. It is instinct for them to attach to the first thing that is in their mouth. So for them it is now the nipple, but it is very possible to get them to nurse still, but would take some work and patients.


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## Jenni (Apr 17, 2012)

My little guy had the same problem with his front legs.  Knees were bent, bowed out, shoulder blades stuck out.  As he used them they straightened out, took a few days.  Now they look pretty normal. The tendons were tight and needed to stretch out.


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## SDBoerGoats (Apr 17, 2012)

Oh yes, yesterday afternoon when I took him to the barn, poor little guy was excited to see his brother and trying to walk. His shoulder blades stuck up so far I thought there was something wrong there too! And yep, it looks like he's walking on tippy toes. BUT even this afternoon, they are improved from this morning and he was shuffling around on his toes. PLUS and this is a HUGE plus to me, he was really hungry, so we held him to mom and put the nipple in his mouth and he started nursing! Only got it for a few seconds at a time, but at least 4 times we got him to suck. His brother Zach, who has been with mom the whole time, refuses to try still, but grabs right on to the bottle. I might have to make him really want it! He is plenty strong to stand up and nurse, his legs are not crooked at all.


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