# Have you had a Kid with CAE?



## Greendecember (Feb 17, 2011)

Hello, 
I posted on the kidding area about one of our kids whos hind feet are not looking right. We took him to the vet and had him looked at and given a vitamin cocktail shot. That was Monday. He hasn't seemed to change any in his status. He likes to sleep in the most difficult place in the barn to get to him. I did manage to get him out today to observe him though. 

We were hoping and still are it is just weak legs from birth but there is a chance it could be CAE. He wants to play with the other Kids but you can tell watching him it is painful for him to get around. He lasts about 3 min then goes back to his hideout. One "ankle" is flexible but the other is stiff and a little swollen. We have put him on a pain shot and antibiotics in the hopes that will clear it up. 

Vet says he is too young for the antibody test so I plan to have his Mom and her sister tested ASAP. They are Mom, Aunt, or Grandmother to everyone in our herd that now numbers at 9. 4 are brand new kids. 
After Queenie and Brooke are tested I plan to have the rest of the herd tested as we can afford it. I have also put off any plans of buying a buck for breeding until I know the herd is clean. 

My Question is, have any of you had a kid who ended up having CAE? What symptoms did it present with before you knew what it was?

Thanks 

Pic is of Goliath and His Mommy Queen on his birthday Feb 3, 2011







Bellow is a pic of his feet as of Monday. It is a pretty bad pic though sorry


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## helmstead (Feb 17, 2011)

CAE in kids from what I understand shows as encephalitis.  I suspect this is just from being cramped in-utero and needing some BoSe.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 17, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> CAE in kids from what I understand shows as encephalitis.  I suspect this is just from being cramped in-utero and needing some BoSe.


I agree, and I would splint the kid.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 17, 2011)

I also agree. The arthritic form of CAE is what you see in adult goats, kids tend to have neurological symptoms and then die. 

Weak legs are common with selenium deficiency (give him some BoSe) or if the kid was too cramped before birth. I see it fairly often in a smaller second kid that was born after a large sibling, the smaller kid ends up with not enough room to move normally before birth and not as much nutrition as the bigger kid. They normally will straighten out within a few days. I've never had one bad enough to need splinting, but you may need to do some splints with your kid and maybe a couple of sessions a day helping him to stretch and strengthen his muscles.


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## Roll farms (Feb 17, 2011)

When you said the vet told you not to splint it, and gave him a cocktail shot...I didn't want to sound discouraging or like a know it all....but....
I disagree w/ him.

I would splint the legs, remove the splints every 24 hrs and do therapy like I described in your other thread, and re-splint as needed.

I usually make my 'funky legged' kids get up and move around...they need to use the legs to help alleviate the problem.   I also move the stiff / non-working joints (therapy) as often as I remember / can when I'm in the barn when they're not splinted.

I would also give him a "just" BoSe shot, 1/2 cc.  

Good luck!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 18, 2011)

I was thinking the same thing I was trying to ignore the thread so I wouldn't get on it and say how much I disagreed with the vet. And what do you mean my a vitamin cocktail, Did it include The Bo-Se?

The longer this kid goes without splinting the harder it is going to be to fix, but I have had a couple deformed kids born that we could not save, where the joints seemed fussed in the wrong direction. Always with high-multiple births, cramped quarters, and possibly a vitamin deficiency from the doe carrying multiples, even though I always give Bo-Se shots before kidding I don't know which one of my does are carrying singles or quads and I feed and treat them all the same. I know some high-end farmers will preg-check their animals and seperate their high multiple births from their singles so they can feed them differentlly.  


Good luck with your decisions and I hope this little guy gets feeling better.


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## Greendecember (Feb 18, 2011)

The "cocktail" had selenium, vit B, B complex, and E I know for sure I am unsure what else was in it. 

What exactly is in the BoSe shot?

I called the OUS Vet teaching hospital they said they would splint too. Their Vet said try a soft newspaper splint. 

Having worked in a HUMAN ER I should have known better. Doctors are humans too and sometimes a person just needs to take what the Doc says, what they have read, and form the best opinion they can on their own. 

I appreciate all your posts! I am not offended in the least by someone disagreeing with the Vet. Goats are a whole new world to me. 

BTW I know the vet is not a complete idiot  He and his co vets treat all 4 of my dogs and several friends I know take all their animals there. Yes it is a *large* and small animal hospital. There are ALWAYS horse trailers in the parking lot with critters of every make and model inside  
I think about the only thing they don't see there are reptiles.


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## Greendecember (Feb 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> The longer this kid goes without splinting the harder it is going to be to fix, but I have had a couple deformed kids born that we could not save, where the joints seemed fussed in the wrong direction.


He is on a pain shot and antibiotic now. The pain shot seems to be helping him BUNCHES! He actually came out and played without prompting when I was out there this morning. I am going to splint the one leg but the other is so swollen I can't bend it. I'm not sure how I would splint it. 

I try to flex the joints for him when ever I catch him, once or twice a day. More if I can. Defiantly when he gets his shots. 
I'm giving the shots in the evening when my husband is home to help me hold him. Hubby is leaving for work at 5:30am right now so when he gets home is easier on the humans anyway. I think it will be good for Goliath too because then he can have a good nights rest.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 18, 2011)

*Bo-Se is 1mg of selenium and 68 IU of vit E per ml.  *(Thats not the dose thats the product values)

Sounds like he added some B Complex..which is fine.  So he got his some.

I hope he does better for you.  I would keep playing with him and keep him moving and active.  I agree with moving those joints.  Important. 

I dont think its CAE...it shows differantly in kids.  IMO

The pain meds will help with movement for sure!!  Good luck..I hope he gets better soon.   I dont think it would hurt at all to splint.  I have learned over the years.  Vets are great for information...but talking to people with years of practical expirence help to.  

They have made the mistakes and know from expirence..where the vets are sometimes just book smart.  Sooo...take it for what its worth???

I dont always agree with my vets decisions...but I hear him out and keep getting info if I dont feel comfortable.  

Good luck with him!! I love his name!!! Sooo cute!!!  Great name for a buck!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 18, 2011)

Greendecember said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am just wondering if the swelling is from the original deformity or problem or if he was stepped on, and since his legs are down on the ground so much it made it easier for someone to step on a foot and injure him even more.  Just a thought.  If he is on mom, I would confine her at night or most of the time,  so he doesn't have to follow her around. Can't remember what you said your situtation was with that. 

good luck with him.


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## Greendecember (Feb 18, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> *Bo-Se is 1mg of selenium and 68 IU of vit E per ml.  *(Thats not the dose thats the product values)
> 
> Sounds like he added some B Complex..which is fine.  So he got his some.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I figured the SE was Selenium but I was not sure if Bo was vit B, a version of B, or something else. That clears a lot up. He got both in the shot the vet gave him. 

You summed up what I was thinking exactly about the book smarts. 

After doing more reading on CAE you all are correct. I was applying the ADULT symptoms to a baby. I am still going to have the herd tested before I get a buck for breeding just in case though. I could not live with myself breeding an animal that I KNEW had a large chance of making a baby that would be in pain. Goliath's Mom is already out of our Breeding program because she has 3 nipples on each teat. All my does came to be bred unknown to us. 


On the name Goliath... He is our first Kid. His mother is the Herd Queen and a TOTAL pain in the RUMP. My husband's name is David. We were married in 2009 and concord a lot more than newlyweds should in those two years but (both of our parents in the hospital with poor health, moving twice, selling and buying a home, starting a ranch, on and on LOL). When I saw my husband cuddling him on the babies birthday just after a blizzard I knew his name was Goliath.

NOT to say the little guy is a monster that needs to be downed with a rock but his birth was another reminder of how wonderful and strong our marriage is and will be through all the tribulations hehe Maybe on that note we should have named him Job hahaha


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## Greendecember (Feb 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I am just wondering if the swelling is from the original deformity or problem or if he was stepped on, and since his legs are down on the ground so much it made it easier for someone to step on a foot and injure him even more.  Just a thought.  If he is on mom, I would confine her at night or most of the time,  so he doesn't have to follow her around. Can't remember what you said your situtation was with that.
> 
> good luck with him.


I thought about his getting stepped on too. Who knows. They are pretty confined right now as it is. Our barn is only 3 medium to large horse stalls with a small attached barn yard. We are working on fencing off a larger area for them to roam in but it is still in the works. Before they had the babies I sometimes let them out into my house yard which is VERY large. It is fences with cattle 4x4 fencing and wood on most of it and 2x4 welded wire on the rest. I don't have the funds just yet to replace the 4x4 so I am keeping them to the barn yard which I put chicken wire over the 4x4 squares to keep the babies in as a cheap short term fix. 

Here is a pic of the barn when we first moved in in September before the goats did some weed eating and we did some repairs LOL
Their portion is only 1/2 to 3/4 front to back and from the fence at the tack room to the other end. On the back where you can see another door is a long open area they do not have access to.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 18, 2011)

Are those boots decorating the barn?   


when we started with our first 7 goats, 4 came bred, we had our 5 acres fenced in with neighbors field fencing, the front part, we had 3 strands of electric fence to keep them out of our yard and no shelters, no feeders, no barn.   NO KIDDING.    I have no idea what we were thinking. 

You all will get there and I know you will really enjoy those goats, even during the frustrating times.


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## Greendecember (Feb 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Are those boots decorating the barn?
> 
> 
> when we started with our first 7 goats, 4 came bred, we had our 5 acres fenced in with neighbors field fencing, the front part, we had 3 strands of electric fence to keep them out of our yard and no shelters, no feeders, no barn.   NO KIDDING.    I have no idea what we were thinking.
> ...


Yup the barn came with the boots and skulls LOL.

We really lucked out. The place was a repo. We got 5 acres, a 3 BR 2 bath house with the barn, outbuildings, well, and most of the fencing for $43k I think it was. As with any old place it needs work and TLC but it is a wonderful place. The man who lived here before had horses. I am sorry for his misfortune but I am very happy with the landscape though the house is a bit vexing at times haha.

We bought the place in September and started with 

*2 does with them both having 2, 5 month old kids. One of their kids was a buck but I sold him 3 days later. 4 of those does ended up being prego. 2 were too young to have babies. If the second one does not kidd this week I will have to make sure the babies are still alive in her  the last time she saw a buck was her twin brother and that was Sept 15, 2010. 150 days would have been Feb 12. That is assuming he is the father and not one of the bucks on the farm she was at. We brought them home Sept 11, 2010. I'm going to give her till Monday but I'm keeping a watch on her. I am 99.9% sure she is prego and not just fat but she hasn't grown an utter or had any discharge or other signs she is about to kidd. She does look a little bigger in the mid section this week though...
I suspect she is 3/4 Pygmy and 1/4 Boer. I pray it was not the Togg that settled her. We are pretty sure that is who is the father of her Aunt's kids. The only other bucks that they said had access to her were her father who they say is Pygmy and her brother who is from the Pygmy buck and her Mom who is 1/2 pygmy 1/2 boer. 

*12 "pullets" which ended up being 10 pullets and 2 roosters! We got our first eggs recently!

*24 Guinea fowl

*4 dogs (3 we already had 1 we got for the goats)

*2 Cats

*1 Lizard

*and 2 humans! LOL

yup it is a Zoo!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 18, 2011)

Not that I am challenging your zoo or anything, but we have

12 pregnant does(7 due at the beginning of march and 5 due in June)

9 does that just kidded with 18 kids on them

3 breeding sires(full-blood boer)

4 show lambs,

1 show heifer

3 meet rabbits, one of them just kindled but lost her litter, one is due in 2 weeks (My 9 yr old sons project)He loves butchering.

2 dogs(house and yard)

3 human kids( ages 17,15 and 9)

and 2 human gown-ups

all on a cozy 6.5 acres.


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## Greendecember (Feb 18, 2011)

LOL I don't see that as challenging   You have had more time to accumulate than I have! 

I raised rabbits when I was in High School in California but they were pet breeds. I thought about getting some fiber rabbits. I REALLY want fiber animals! I'm still having trouble getting friendly with my food.

That said, the rooster that has decided I'm fun to attack this week is not making a good case for staying off the dinner table! If it weren't for the fact my kitchen is out of commission until (I hope) this weekend when hubby can get the busted pipes fixed I would have wrung his neck and scalded his feathered bum in a heart beat yesterday!


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