# doe kindled on the ground- all kits froze and died. help!!!



## EmilyClick28 (Mar 17, 2016)

hi i just recently got into breeding rabbits and this was my first time breeding. i bred my mini lop buck with my mini lop doe about a month ago and this was day 31 of the pregnancy. just this morning i went out to check on the doe to see if she had kindled, but all the kits were on the ground in her cage and they all froze!!!! im really sad about it. i put a nest box in her cage on day 22 but i noticed she wasnt really nesting in it... i asked a breeder and they said to just go out and if u see the babies on the ground, scoop them all up and put them in the nest box. but when i went out there they were all froze and had died! she could have kindled during the night but im not sure. please is there some way i could prevent this from happening again??? i plan to breed one of my other does soon and hopefully this time it will go better... please if anyone could help that would be great!


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## Latestarter (Mar 17, 2016)

@Bunnylady @Samantha drawz @chiques chicks @Shorty @Pastor Dave ?

Sorry you lost the litter.


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## samssimonsays (Mar 17, 2016)

There is really no way of knowing if she will do it again until she does. Sometimes first timers (I am assuming she was) don't know what they are supposed to do. I always place my nest boxes in on day 28 unless they show nesting signs sooner. You could remove her from her cage and place her in a solid bottomed cage or carrier or pack the flooring full of hay to prevent it next time. My best suggesting is breed her back within 4 days. I like to wait 3-4 days after they loose a litter for some recovery. Then, when she is close, bring her in the house although, with the temps warming up there should be no concern in a month or so of freezing. I used to breed year round when my rabbits were inside. Once they moved into a barn, however, I had to compromise and breed seasonally to avoid the freezing temps.


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## LukeMeister (Mar 17, 2016)

I'm really sorry about that.  Most of the time first time mothers lose their litter, but learn from their mistakes. If you breed her again she may or may not get it right.


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## EmilyClick28 (Mar 17, 2016)

yeah she was a first time mom. the thing is she started pulling fur on day 20 so thats why i put the box in so soon. i definitely like the idea of putting her inside to avoid that happening again!  thank you so much ill try that next time. i went ahead and bred one of my other does today in hopes of her being a better mom. thank you so much for all the help! i will try bringing her inside when shes close. thanks! 



Samantha drawz said:


> There is really no way of knowing if she will do it again until she does. Sometimes first timers (I am assuming she was) don't know what they are supposed to do. I always place my nest boxes in on day 28 unless they show nesting signs sooner. You could remove her from her cage and place her in a solid bottomed cage or carrier or pack the flooring full of hay to prevent it next time. My best suggesting is breed her back within 4 days. I like to wait 3-4 days after they loose a litter for some recovery. Then, when she is close, bring her in the house although, with the temps warming up there should be no concern in a month or so of freezing. I used to breed year round when my rabbits were inside. Once they moved into a barn, however, I had to compromise and breed seasonally to avoid the freezing temps.


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## samssimonsays (Mar 17, 2016)

You are so welcome. Solid bottomed dog kennels saved many of litters of mine for sure. Also, if you breed multiple does at the same time, if one is a bad mom you can usually foster the babies out to the other.  Good luck!


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## EmilyClick28 (Mar 17, 2016)

really? well thank you very much!  ill probably be posting on how this pregnancy goes. lets hope this one goes better.


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## samssimonsays (Mar 18, 2016)

I can't wait to see how it goes!


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## chiques chicks (Mar 18, 2016)

Everyone pretty much covered it!  Unfortunately it happens. Animals can be so rewarding, yet at times so frustrating.

I put the nest boxes in at day 28 as well. If I had space, which I don't, I think I would use under cage nesting boxes ( in a hole in the floor). Seems more "natural" to me after observing wild rabbits.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 18, 2016)

chiques chicks said:


> Everyone pretty much covered it!  Unfortunately it happens. Animals can be so rewarding, yet at times so frustrating.
> 
> I put the nest boxes in at day 28 as well. If I had space, which I don't, I think I would use under cage nesting boxes ( in a hole in the floor). Seems more "natural" to me after observing wild rabbits.


I've heard people who have used them say that does hardly ever kindle outside of the hanging nest boxes, and if a kit does accidentally get pulled out, it usually finds its way back just crawling around, Never tried them myself, though I have been tempted. 

One further note - if you find live kits that get born somewhere other than the box, you can usually put them in the box where they belong (along with whatever fur and other nest material you can salvage) and the doe usually will accept that and go on to use the box in the future. 

Good luck!


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## Latestarter (Mar 18, 2016)

That's a pretty solid observation chicks... How would you arrange it or set it up? I thought most folks had their cages elevated... Would you make like a ramp/enclosed tunnel leading down to the sub floor nesting box or move the entire cage down to the ground to sit on top of it?


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## samssimonsays (Mar 18, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> That's a pretty solid observation chicks... How would you arrange it or set it up? I thought most folks had their cages elevated... Would you make like a ramp/enclosed tunnel leading down to the sub floor nesting box or move the entire cage down to the ground to sit on top of it?


Usually they are in wire bottom hanging cages and just connected to the floors. They look pretty convenient! The ones I have seen are a permanent fixture to the cage.


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## EmilyClick28 (Mar 19, 2016)

thank you guys this helped a lot!  hah i dont know where i read it but somewhere i read to put the nesting box in on day 22!!! so should i do day 28 instead??? i have another pregnant doe so it would be great to know what day is best to put it in!!!  and okay yeah i guess my problem is getting to the kits before they freeze so i can put them in the box... thats why this time im bringing the doe inside on like day 26  oh and hey btw, is there like a specific temperature that kits can handle? like, if i have the doe outside and once the kits are born and in the nest box... should i bring the box in the house if it gets like below 40 degreesF? or like below freezing? i tried googling it but couldnt find anything....


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## EmilyClick28 (Mar 19, 2016)

also, i was wondering if maybe my nest box's size could be the problem and maybe thats why the doe didnt use it? shes a mini lop and the nest box is roughly 14 inches long, 8 inches wide, and 8 inches tall.. is this an okay size for mini lops? what would be a good sized nest box to use?


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## Bunnylady (Mar 20, 2016)

Samantha drawz said:


> Usually they are in wire bottom hanging cages and just connected to the floors. They look pretty convenient! The ones I have seen are a permanent fixture to the cage.



Like this:






Temperature tolerance for the kits seems to be rather subjective. I have seen a lot of people who say they have litters born at sub-freezing temperatures, and as long as there is plenty of hay and fur in the nest, the kits do fine. All I know is that I have lost litters when the temp's are in the 40's.  If I am concerned about losing a litter due to cool temperatures, I put the babies out with the mom only during the warmer parts of the day, or maybe just take them out to the mom a couple of times for feeding - yes, yes, I know; but I have found that my rabbits are much more tolerant than I ever thought possible. Some does might abandon their litters or savage the kits with all the interfering that I do, but in all the years I have had rabbits, I have only had 1 that I know intentionally savaged her kits, and 1 that simply refused to have anything to do with them (there have been a few that didn't have any milk, and I would have assumed that they simply weren't feeding if I hadn't been so involved). I have had quite a few that had to "adjust" to this way of doing things, but by and large, they did just that, and we have raised a lot of babies that experience makes me believe would not have survived without all my messing about.


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## chiques chicks (Mar 20, 2016)

I'm rather hands off. I've had kits born in early March that survived. Temps in the 30's. 

My best boxes are 12x18, I think, but are for meat rabbits. I don't know if I said it, but I prefer wood with hardware cloth bottom. I cover the cloth with cardboard in the winter. They don't last forever as the rabbits chew the wood, but they aren't expensive to make and i make several at a time while I have the saw set up.

That picture is exactly what I wish I had for nest boxes.

As I've looked at various people's methods with different animals, I've learned different things work for different people. It all comes down to the time available, what are acceptable losses for the individual, and time available. Unfortunately, some losses are unavoidable. There are times I wonder why I keep animals, then I have a bad day at work and go out with them and remember.


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## EmilyClick28 (Mar 20, 2016)

okay well thanks a lot guys this was super helpful!  i think ill play it safe and go ahead and if the temps are going below 40 ill bring the nest box in at night. and i was thinking maybe if its super cold, i might just move the doe into a big cardboard box in the house (shes litter box trained, luckily) and that way the kits wont freeze for sure.  and yes i TOTALLY agree they can really help cheer you up!  and i have plenty pets to cheer me up  a horse, dog, cat, 4 rabbits (at the moment), 3 fish tanks, 4 chickens, 7 chicks, and 2 ducks.  love all my pets!


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