# The slip up was real!



## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 14, 2019)

So I went to the barn this morning and saw a bit more fur in the corner of my puffy little grey and white doe’s bunny box....the one who was living with her younger bonded buck..that I thought was oh too young to think those thoughts.   So, I started the thread the other day about a possible slip up and should I separate them?  Well...lol... I think, in the back of my mind, I hoped this would happen.  Oh, come on.. I knew this would happen, I am just trying to convince myself that it was a slip up so my hubby doesn’t catch on..ugh?  Anyways..I reached in and felt...yep, a tiny warm..sausage!  So I started popping them out, and out and out, etc...13!  One, was passEd.  But, this was her first liter!  Can you imagine after a few more times!?  They all look good.  Nice little spotted, one black.  My hubby prefers the black rabbits.  This is why we have a coveted chocolate New Zealand buck. .   She is sitting back, relaxing, and chewing her hay.  Good job mamma.  Nice surprise!


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## Mini Horses (Dec 14, 2019)

Holy cow!  13?   That's huge.   Well, congrats.  Hope all goes well.


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## Xerocles (Dec 14, 2019)

13 with 12 survivors! Incredible. Wonderful "surprise". Now, you already know I'm a newby, so forgive the question, but is she going to be able to nurse 12? I've heard crazy things like taking half out in mornings to rotate nursing, and surrogate moms (which you don't have at the moment). But, bottom line. Can one mama handle nursing 12 kits?


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 14, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> 13 with 12 survivors! Incredible. Wonderful "surprise". Now, you already know I'm a newby, so forgive the question, but is she going to be able to nurse 12? I've heard crazy things like taking half out in mornings to rotate nursing, and surrogate moms (which you don't have at the moment). But, bottom line. Can one mama handle nursing 12 kits?


Oh yes, no problems.  She will eat more.  It’s like with piglets.  The kits will kind of rotate..basically fall off her and another takes its place.  Does nurse early morning and after dark so predators don’t see the babies.  So, she is full of milk.  Her body will make what it demands.  I’ve only ever had one issue Wuxi this a doe drying out..it was due to worms...but these guys all got wormed right bef going into the barn.

anyways...the mammas also stay away from the kits during the day to not attract predators.  If one gets close, she’ll charge, but she tries to stay back.
it’s a nice process to watch...does this inspire you???


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## Xerocles (Dec 14, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Oh yes, no problems.  She will eat more.  It’s like with piglets.  The kits will kind of rotate..basically fall off her and another takes its place.  Does nurse early morning and after dark so predators don’t see the babies.  So, she is full of milk.  Her body will make what it demands.  I’ve only ever had one issue Wuxi this a doe drying out..it was due to worms...but these guys all got wormed right bef going into the barn.
> 
> anyways...the mammas also stay away from the kits during the day to not attract predators.  If one gets close, she’ll charge, but she tries to stay back.
> it’s a nice process to watch...does this inspire you???


Inspire, impress, amaze, dumbfound.


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## Baymule (Dec 14, 2019)

Congratulations on the nest of pinkies! They are lovely! What about a picture of proud Momma and Papa?


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 15, 2019)

They’ve been fine all day, getting plump all ready...so here’s the pictures of the mom and dad...proud darents of 12 living kits!  Wwe to Christmas party today and Chris wait to tell everyone how the expert made a mstake...I simply explained...it was planed the whole time...nooooo...that’s not it all, but he did I tease and I sailed I did not this this 4 mth buck was old enough...well, then conversation changed a who,e new,, and it wasn’t pretty.  Fella..ladies don’t want to know that spend time wasting looking at naked ladies...be are immune to that way of thought.  So, just don’t break her bubble by telling the truth...because so of us true ladies are not ready!     Anyways...theses are my iliigimitagrandbunnies..  I think I should start a support group...lol. The buck on top and y doe is bottom


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## Baymule (Dec 16, 2019)

They sure are pretty! What breed?


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Baymule said:


> They sure are pretty! What breed?


They are broken California with New Zealand...a lot of kids like the spotted ones..lol. I tell people if the kids gets tired, just bring them back...   I’ve only ever Actually  sold two, the rest I gave away


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## Bunnylady (Dec 16, 2019)

Well, now how's that for an early Christmas present? Congrats!



Xerocles said:


> 13 with 12 survivors! Incredible. Wonderful "surprise". Now, you already know I'm a newby, so forgive the question, but is she going to be able to nurse 12? I've heard crazy things like taking half out in mornings to rotate nursing, and surrogate moms (which you don't have at the moment). But, bottom line. Can one mama handle nursing 12 kits?




Maybe she can manage it, maybe not. It's not uncommon to lose a few, especially with a litter this large. Some does have more milk than others, but a doe only produces so much each day. Studies have shown that litters as a whole seem to gain the same amount of weight, regardless of how many kits are in the litter - so the individual kits in a numerically large litter grow slower than kits from a litter of just a few. As long as each kit is getting enough, being born in a large litter is actually better for the kits than coming from a small one; when too few bunnies get all the milk intended for a mob, they may grow too fast, and wind up with skeletal and digestive problems. Commercial breeders believe the optimal number to balance kit growth to feed consumption by the doe is about 6 kits per litter, and often cull or swap around to get litters near that number. One thing I've learned to be wary of is a doe that has a large litter, and the kits grow like mad in spite of their numbers - does like that may wind up dying when their kits are only 3 to 4 weeks old due to hypocalcemia (supplemental calcium and/or alfalfa hay can help head that off).

Sometimes bunnies get out-competed in a litter like this; buns who are smaller than their siblings at birth are the most likely to lose out when (literally!) push comes to shove. There can be other issues, too. Since it appears that both parents are broken patterned animals, it is likely that there will be some Charlies (nearly all-white bunnies that got the gene for the broken pattern from both of their parents) in this litter. Just how bad it is varies from rabbit to rabbit, but Charlies have sluggish digestive systems and trouble absorbing nutrients from their food, so they tend to grow slower and can lose out as their siblings become bigger  and stronger. It's not unusual to lose Charlies in the nest box, even in numerically small litters where competition isn't an issue.

But as to the sire of this litter being only 4 months old - yeah, that's quite normal. Rabbits become fertile as young as 12 weeks of age, which is why most breeders separate by gender at 8 to 10 weeks.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 16, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> Well, now how's that for an early Christmas present? Congrats!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmm. Guess I should’ve joined this for a few months ago....   geez, everything you read says bucks..six months!oh well.  Charlie’s, huh?  Good to know.  I’ll watch out and supplement if needed.


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## Bunnylady (Dec 18, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> geez, everything you read says bucks..six months!



I started with rabbits over 30 years ago, a time when "reading" still meant "books." Due to the time and expense involved in the whole process, there was plenty of opportunity for fact-checking before the books made it into print. These days, an awful lot of reading involves the internet, a place where misinformation flies around the planet at the speed of light. Some of the worst places are the "rabbits only" websites, where some of the posters are bunny-owner-wanna-be's that have no experience at all, but are just parroting each other. 

Rabbits of either gender should not be bred until they have stopped growing. That is usually at about 6 months in most breeds, but it may not be until 8 months or so in the giant breeds. But, as is the case with a lot of animals, adolescence frequently comes before the genetically-determined final adult size is achieved. I have had more people argue with me online about at what age a rabbit becomes reproductively viable, but I have known enough people who have had 4-month-old does give birth to babies sired by their brothers (or adult does that got impregnated by their junior sons) to believe that a rabbit can become fertile at 12 weeks. There are other considerations besides fertility, of course; you want the animal to be physically and psychologically mature enough to deal with the stresses of breeding. A very young doe may give birth, but then have no clue what to do about the babies, which at minimum is a lot of unnecessary stress for the owner and the rabbit (and result in the death of the litter). Likewise, a young buck may get attacked by an aggressive older doe and get injured, and even get put off the subject of breeding for life.  It is generally held as a better idea to wait until they are fully mature, which is typically thought of as happening at around 6 months of age. Of course, there are a lot of people who are meat rabbit breeders who start does younger than that; which may or may not work for them.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 18, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> I started with rabbits over 30 years ago, a time when "reading" still meant "books." Due to the time and expense involved in the whole process, there was plenty of opportunity for fact-checking before the books made it into print. These days, an awful lot of reading involves the internet, a place where misinformation flies around the planet at the speed of light. Some of the worst places are the "rabbits only" websites, where some of the posters are bunny-owner-wanna-be's that have no experience at all, but are just parroting each other.
> 
> Rabbits of either gender should not be bred until they have stopped growing. That is usually at about 6 months in most breeds, but it may not be until 8 months or so in the giant breeds. But, as is the case with a lot of animals, adolescence frequently comes before the genetically-determined final adult size is achieved. I have had more people argue with me online about at what age a rabbit becomes reproductively viable, but I have known enough people who have had 4-month-old does give birth to babies sired by their brothers (or adult does that got impregnated by their junior sons) to believe that a rabbit can become fertile at 12 weeks. There are other considerations besides fertility, of course; you want the animal to be physically and psychologically mature enough to deal with the stresses of breeding. A very young doe may give birth, but then have no clue what to do about the babies, which at minimum is a lot of unnecessary stress for the owner and the rabbit (and result in the death of the litter). Likewise, a young buck may get attacked by an aggressive older doe and get injured, and even get put off the subject of breeding for life.  It is generally held as a better idea to wait until they are fully mature, which is typically thought of as happening at around 6 months of age. Of course, there are a lot of people who are meat rabbit breeders who start does younger than that; which may or may not work for them.


Two days ago I went in to check on the kits...there were only 8...I checked everywhere for the past two days.  Four are completely gone.  She must’ve eaten them.  I’m so upset.  These 8 are doing well though, now.  I’m going to add BOSS and some alfalfa hay for her.  She has always had plenty of pellets and Timothy hay, but must’ve felt she didn’t have enough milk.  The Charlie is actually fine...he’s nice and fat.


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## Bunnylady (Dec 18, 2019)

Sorry about your losses. Though we know these things happen, it still hurts. Even after all this time, dead baby bunnies totally take the shine out of my day.

My experience with does eating live babies (which, thankfully, is very little, in spite of  hundreds of litters over the years) is that they make a ghastly mess when they do it. If you didn't find a lot of blood in the nest area, I'd give the doe the benefit of the doubt and think that the babies got dragged/wandered out of the nest and "something else" happened to them. Of course, if they died of exposure and the doe disposed of the bodies by eating them, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a mess, though there might be some small body parts.

Wishing you the best of luck with the rest of them!


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## Baymule (Dec 18, 2019)

A rat could have taken them.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 18, 2019)

I didn’t pull the nesting box out because the cages are up four feet.  But tomorrow I will do that.. I have to see.  I said to my husband..maybe I just miscounted...but, I countEd three times because there were sooo many.  And you know how they jump around but... I can’t imagine that I screwed up that bad.  I doubt a rat because I just mentioned that I have no sign of mice in my barn...bebecause I have some feed bags....in another thread....so...first, I think I would see mice droppings, rat droppings..second..they would go for the feed.....at least this is my thought.   I’m going with the theory of self doubt and that I miss counted...I can’t allow myself to think she..or anything else hurt those babies...ugh...breaks my heart.

We lost three babies during a bad storm last spring...before the barn...two hopped out and then the nest got wet when the rain shifted.  Anyways..that was awful.  They were only a few days old too.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 20, 2019)

There’s no way a rat could get in or out...the hardware cloth is 1/2” and the wood is solid cherry hard wood, except for 2x4, which are intact.  I searched the nest..no sign of blood..clearly, I miss counted?  I pray.  But here are some great new pictures


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 30, 2019)

These little guys are jumping around like crazy!! I almost forgot how fast they are! Eyes have been open for a few days. I’ve got some pellets in a shallow dish for them, but I don’t think they’ve found them yet.. I think the Momma is the eater!! . And, the “Charlie”. Is my biggest..he’s as  long as he is plump..so, no worries there!


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## Ridgetop (Dec 30, 2019)

When I count a very large litter, I remove the nest box from the doe's cage.  Then I remove the bunnies from the nest into another receptacle for a correct count.  Sometimes, after counting the litter, bunnies will later die and the doe buries them in the nest under fur and shavings or straw.  They get flattened out under the bedding and you have to remove all the bedding to find the tiny bodies.  In the winter there are no flies to draw attention to the bodies.  In the summer flies and ants can be drawn to the decomposing bodies, then attacking the survivors.  

Depending on your cages, if you do not have "babysaver" cages (1/2" x1/2" wire around the bottom of the sides about 6" up) kits can crawl around and fall through the wire (standard cage wire is 1" x 2") out of the cage.  With large litters kits can still be nursing when the doe is disturbed and jumps out of the nest, causing them to be knocked off onto the cage floor.  Then the kits crawl through the wore and fall out of the cage.  If you have manure pits under the cages, no cats or dogs to grab the kits, you can sometimes rescue them.  Manure pits are warm due to the composting action so the kits won't freeze if you are lucky to find them in time, but can get eaten. 

*Bunnylady *is right - does that eat kits make a mess.  Usually you will find the skulls, and sometimes a few body parts.  Does do *not* eat live kits - this is a fallacy.    They do eat dead kits to clean up the nest and not draw predators to the smell near the nest.  Partially eaten kits were usually dead before the doe ate the bodies.  Does eat the afterbirth, just like other animals  do after giving birth.  Rabbits do not relocate their babies like cats and dogs, so they will clean up the dead ones after birth by eating them  Sometimes a kit will be missing a foot or toes due to the doe trying to assist the birthing process.  If the doe kindles "on the wire" instead of inside the nest, the kits will just crawl around looking for warmth.  The doe will not bother to gather them together.  That is the purpose of the doe making her nest.  If you have given her a lot of straw in the box, she will usually dig out a deep hole to line with fur for her nest. 

It sounds like you have a very nice doe with excellent maternal instincts.  Pretty babies too.  The one that appears to be a "Charlie" looks to have Californian coloring.  If the parents are broken Cals, I would not worry that he is a "Charlie" but assume that he is a straight Californian.  Probably due to a recessive straight Cal gene coming out.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 30, 2019)

Yes, thank you for the tips..a lot of which I sort of know...like..the wire is all 1/2” hardware cloth...no way for anything to get in or out.  I did not know that they will not eat live kits.  So thanks.  I typically do separate to count the liter, but my cages are 4” high in the barn...and I can’t reach into the nest box easily.  So I just fell around.  Later. Dug around and inspected ebpvery inch for blood or dead babies.  It was clear I miscounted due to just putting them aside and them bouncing around at eye level.  We are down to 6 out of the original 9.  One born dead.  One out of the nest at far corner of cage...her cage is 4” long.  And one got stuck behind the nest box somehow.  I hate when that happens.  But, the rest are spunky And I’m happy to have them.  In my other cage...where I have my three young does...I was concerned tonight.  My girl I have picked to be my new doe to breed was trying to mount my other young doe.  I was very concerned...but...phew...she is stil, really a she...just, a little...you know.....hmmm.  And the young bucks I had to step from all the young does so I didn’t have anymore oopsies, all are fine...which is quite a relief.  And as for my Charlie...since these are no show quality rabbits, and purely for fun, I’m not worried about a broken breed.  Plus..this wasn’t supposed to happen!!  Yikes!  But, when I normally do it, I match them up to get pure breeds..or, at holidays, brokers, because kids like the spots!! . I hope to actually sell more than two this year instead of giving them all away,   But..we do intend to tell every person who takes a bunny, chick, duckling, that if it doesn’t work out...please bring the animals back..no questions asked!


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 31, 2019)

I’ve got some new pictures of these little buggers...they are sooo funny. Eating pellets like champs.  They like that 4’ cage!


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## Nifty (Dec 31, 2019)

Too cute not to add to the new homepage.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 1, 2020)

Nifty said:


> Too cute not to add to the new homepage.


Ok, I’ll get some better pictures


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 4, 2020)

Some new pictures of the kits...so cute!!


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## Xerocles (Jan 4, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Some new pictures of the kits...so cute!!View attachment 68528


I have a question. And this is a part of the learning curve for me. Nothing else.
I recall you saying you had Californias and NZs. 
I can see Cali influence in markings...but isn't Mama's nose too "smooshed" for either of these breeds? Teach me?


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 26, 2020)

So, these little guys are flourishing!!  Getting sooo big...they are almost ready to wean...we have the cages set up, they will be next to momma on either side...3 on the left, 3 on the right.  They are sort of old enough to sex?  I think we have 3 of each?  Could be wrong, it’s pretty early.  The little girl who came to see them a coup,e weeks ago, still calls...she knows she has to wait., she’s fine with that.  There’s one little one, I think I’m keeping, nice coloring, just like momma.


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## Xerocles (Jan 26, 2020)

Ducks....just remember the title of this thread. Ya might want to get a second opinion on those sexes!


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