# Worming, is it really necessary?



## Iwantgoats (Mar 28, 2011)

Pretty new to goating and not sure about worming your goats.  I have a horse and know we have to worm him every 6-8 weeks.  How often do goats get wormed?  What do you suggest or use?  How old do they have to be when you start?

Also wondering what vaccines people use or recommend?  Any information would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!


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## poorboys (Mar 28, 2011)

WORMING IS VERY INPORTANT!! CHECK EYELIDS, THEY NEED TO BE RED OR BRIGHT PINK, I WORM AT 6WEEKS, AND YOU ALSO NEED TO DO COCIDA PREVENTION STARTING AT 3 WEEKS, DI-METHOX 40% IS WHAT I USE FIRST DAY 1CC PER 5# DAY 2,3,4,5 1CC PER 10# EVERY 21 DAYS, THESE TWO ARE KILLERS IN BABIES, ALSO CDT SHOTS, AND I GIVE PNUEMONIA SHOTS YEARLY, BOSE, I USUALLY WORM ABOUT EVERY 3 MONTHS, OR SOONER IF I FEEL THEY NEED IT. BUT PREVENTION IS GOING TO BE YOUR GREATEST TOOL, GOOD LUCK AND MAYBE SOMEONE ELSE WILL HAVE MORE INFO FOR YOU  PATTY


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## Roll farms (Mar 28, 2011)

Don't deworm on a schedule like you've done w/ horses...PLEASE read the info in the links provided below....

Seriously, folks, worms are the # 1 issue w/ goats (IMHO) and we've GOT to get a handle on it.

http://www.extension.org/pages/19651/goat-dewormers

The major problem encountered in controlling nematode parasitism in goats is the resistance that many worm populations -- specifically H. contortus --have developed to essentially all of our dewormers. Resistance has developed primarily because dewormers have been used and rotated too frequently and many times under-dosing occurs. Continuing to use such a dewormer will increase the selection of more resistant worms which will eventually result in a population of "superworms" that cant be controlled with drugs. There is no silver bullet one can rely upon. Resistance is genetically controlled, and once established, it is set in the population, and those dewormers can no longer be used effectively.

http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/parasites.html#ip

Smart use of dewormers

The most important aspect of using dewormers is to conserve their effectiveness. This can be achieved by using them as little as possible and only when infection levels dictate that intervention is necessary. The old concepts of treat all animals when a few show signs or all animals at regular intervals (shorter than every 3-4 months) is no longer warranted because it promotes dewormer resistance. Even if new dewormers are discovered and marketed (which is a long way down the line), they should not be used indiscriminately as that is the reason the dewormer resistance problem has evolved. 

It would be prudent to establish which dewormers are effective against a worm population. This can be achieved by conducting FEC reduction testing and should be done by a qualified professional such as a veterinarian, veterinary school parasitology lab or a diagnostic lab that offers such a service. However, FEC are not hard to do, but a microscope is required. The procedures for conducting a FEC are available on the SCSRPC and other websites. The concept is to do FEC before and after (10-14 days) treatment. If the counts after treatment are "0" (essentially 100% reduction), the dewormer is very effective. However, this should not be expected with most of the dewormers and the best one (highest % reduction) should be considered for use only when there are no other options, thus extending its useful life. Fecal egg count reduction testing may seem somewhat expensive, but it will be worth the effort and expense to know what you have. The worst thing is not knowing and continuing down the wrong path. Once the most effective dewomer has been selected, using it along with others needs to be done "smartly." Some of these "smart" concepts are:

Do not use the most effective dewormer exclusively unless it is the only dewormer that works. Reserve its use for deworming those animals which need it the most and use less effective dewormers otherwise. 

If one feels the need to rotate dewomers, do so at yearly intervals and rotate between classes. Using the most effective in each class. 

Only deworm those animals that need to be dewormed and not the whole population. As a general rule, a minority of the population harbors the majority of the worm population, thus most of the animals may not need deworming and it is not prudent to do so. By doing this, much of the worm population is not exposed to the dewormer and development of resistance can be slowed substantially. This is where the FAMACHA monitoring system comes into play. 

If there is substantial resistance to all dewomers tested, increasing the dosage may help with some or using combinations (from different classes, levamisole and albendazole has been used successfully) may improve effectiveness. Another concept that has also been reported to have some success in improving effectiveness is to take animals off feed for 24 hour before administering the dewomer. This will reduce rumen motility and the dewomer will pass through the gut slower and have more contact time with the target worms. 

Do not deworm and move to clean pasture (no animal grazing for at least 3 months) as those worms that survive dewoming are probably resistant and then the new pasture will become more highly contaminated with eggs/larvae of resistant worms. That is not what one needs when trying to combat these parasites.


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## freemotion (Mar 28, 2011)

There are areas where worms in goats are so resistant that it has become very dangerous to the health of the animals.  So in order NOT to create resistance in your goats and on your property, worm only as needed, not by the calendar.  

Use the FAMACHA chart and regular fecal exams to determine when to worm and what types of worms you are dealing with.  I am fortunate that I rarely need to worm on my property.  Goats are fairly new here, so that may change as the years go by, but so far, so good.  

Fecal exams done by the vets here cost $22 each, so I got the equipment and learned to do my own.  I can monitor things and get results within an hour if needed.  There have been times when other indicators said worms are a possibility but fecal exams ruled it out, so I did not contribute to resistance, yay!   But I will worm right away if the FAMACHA score is low.  That can happen overnight if an animal is stressed in other ways....a move (even within the property) and the like.

Skip pellets and other weak and cheap wormers that will contribute to resistance.

I use herbals, they work reasonably well here.  On my property.  I also have Ivomec in the fridge and have used it on occasion.

ETA:  Ooops, someone who knows WAY more than I do already posted!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 28, 2011)

Thank you both for posting that great info!  Worms are a huge issue in our area.  We too do our own fecal exams out of necessity.

I'm off to read through the links yall provided.  Thanks again!


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## babsbag (Mar 28, 2011)

poorboys said:
			
		

> AND YOU ALSO NEED TO DO COCIDA PREVENTION STARTING AT 3 WEEKS, DI-METHOX 40% IS WHAT I USE FIRST DAY 1CC PER 5# DAY 2,3,4,5 1CC PER 10# EVERY 21 DAYS, THESE TWO ARE KILLERS IN BABIES


This is my 3rd year with kids being born on our property, and the 4th year we have had goats. I do not do coccidia prevention and have not had it in my kids. (I do get it in my chicks, but I believe it is a different strain, please tell me if I am wrong.) 

Am I walking on dangerous ground by not doing prevention? Is it only a matter of time as our soil becomes more "goatie"? Does doing prevention for cocci increase the resisitance to drugs the same as over-worming? I am not fond of drugs and I use them sparingly, when I really need them. 

My goats have about an acre that they live on and it is dry pasture. Worms are not one of our problems, at all. Is coccidia more likely in wet/damp soil or does it care? (I know it isn't a worm)


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## Roll farms (Mar 29, 2011)

We didn't have a problem for 2 or 3 years either....and then suddenly I lost 4 kids in a couple of weeks time....BUT I had brought home a new doe who the vet said had a "virulent strain" of cocci.

Have you had a fecal ran to verify, or are you basing that on not having had any sick kids?

I would advocate doing cocci prev. only if you bring home something new, or if you start seeing problems.  
Maybe have a fecal ran on 2 kids just to get a ballpark count on oocysts.

It's possible your dryer conditions are helping out, too.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 29, 2011)

Cocci thrives during wet sprngs and summers, there is no way we would have a single goat with out treating for cocci. If we don't treat by week 3 or 4 after kidding, we would loose  most of our kid crop,   I am sure location matters, and like Roll said, the strain matters.


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## helmstead (Mar 29, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> We didn't have a problem for 2 or 3 years either....and then suddenly I lost 4 kids in a couple of weeks time....BUT I had brought home a new doe who the vet said had a "virulent strain" of cocci.
> 
> Have you had a fecal ran to verify, or are you basing that on not having had any sick kids?
> 
> ...


Same with us...we had no issues with cocci until we bought a goat with a NO FUN gram positive strain that he had sort of managed to live 3 mos with, and that pretty much instantly killed 4 of our babies, then him.  We were fairly new to goats then (was only our 2nd round of babies) - talk about a crash course in cocci.

And yes, chickens and goats don't share their strains of cocci.  Chickens CAN spread goat cocci everywhere when they're housed together tho - like into water buckets and feed troughs - with their little chicken feet.  So we don't house our chickens and goats together anymore. (this is how the above goat's happy little cocci got into our baby pen back in the day)


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 29, 2011)

Helmstead and Rolls, thank you so much for sharing that info with us.

We have not been treating for cocci.  I have brought home goats to care for that had been treated for it, I have bought goats that have been on prevention for it, but have not really had to deal with it here yet.

Are there conditions that lend to the cocci?  We're not in a dry area but I know if it can go wrong, it will with our goats so I guess I want to know what can be done to prevent it becoming a problem (other than just treatment)?


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## Roll farms (Mar 29, 2011)

If you want to click on website by my name < over there...I have some cocci info on the 'raisin' babies' page wayyyy down at the bottom of my site navigation.


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## MsPony (Mar 29, 2011)

Read this, the first part is horses, the second is goats!! It doesn't go into huge detail, but some good bits.

Btw, I don't worm my horse. Check your horses fecals monthly, worming is the fast track to a severely destroyed gut and nervous system.

http://www.holistichorse.com/Diseas...-equines-and-herbal-worming-alternatives.html


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## babsbag (Mar 29, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Have you had a fecal ran to verify, or are you basing that on not having had any sick kids?


I have not done one this year as our first kids aren't due until the middle of April. Last year no sign of it, or of any other parasites, in the kids or the does. How lucky is that?

But we have had a very very wet March so if there ever will be problems due to wet/soggy ground this would be the year.

I will just have to be super watchful and will probably be a paranoid goat mom. I dam raise my kids so what is the usual age that cocci makes an appearance?


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## Roll farms (Mar 29, 2011)

Incubation is around 21 days....I start treatment at 3 wks, just to nip the evil buggers in the bud.

Holding my sweet babies as they died was enough to convince me that it was NEVER going to happen here AGAIN.  

I don't LIKE medicating any more than the next person.  Nor do I like spending money on medication....But...I like dead babies even less.  
Now that it's here, I WILL NOT take chances.

The year after that, I tried to get by with using medicated feed....per my vet's suggestion.
It did no good...a 3 week old kid cannot / will not eat enough of the feed to get the deccox or rumensin in the feed up to therapuetic levels to prevent an outbreak.

So one of my 5 wk old kids scoured that year, and I take a poo sample in to the vet, and it's cocci...I was like, "But...Dr. P....you TOLD me to use medicated feed..."  
After that, I quit listening to her (well intentioned but no practical experience w/ it at the time) and did my own research.  
I didn't lose any kids that year, but the cocci DID stunt several of them and they just didn't grow like I like / want / need, since this is my 'bidness'. 

More power to those who can avoid prevention treatment, good for you, and I envy you.  
I know I don't have that luxury.

Since starting the stringent prevention program w/ DiMethox, my kids do SO well, most can even be bred their 1st fall.  
My current crop of yearling does have all kidded or should any day.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 29, 2011)

I read through your cocci info on your website, Rolls and will continue to read through the links you provided as well.  Thank you for those!

I've seen the results of goats with cocci out of control.  The last one I saw was anemic and we had to give it a blood transfusion from my buck.  It also had other worms but the cocci were out of control.  The iron level was registering so low our vet could not believe she was not dead (we brought her home like this as my daughter has a habit of "rescuing" animals).  We did a total of 2 transfusions, 5 days apart.  She never lost her urge to eat and never lost her "sassy".  Once she no longer had the parasite overload she was able to bounce back but it took her a bit.

I've been lazy with my goats in this herd and just been watching for an overload and thus far none.  I know it will happen.  I don't know anyone in this area who has had goats for a while who has not had a run in with cocci that has cost them at least a few goats.  I need to get a game plan together and do it before it is an issue and I'm trying to play catch-up.

We prefer all natural treatments as much as possible, but I would have to agree in that I'll treat an animal with medications before I'll put it through a torturous death so I could hang on to some principle of my own.  It's a very individual decision but our family is trying to find the balance between all natural and modern medicines and making sure we're not going overboard in either direction to the detriment of our animals.  I don't envy anyone all the deicions you have to make in this regard.  It stinks!  We've yet to figure it all out and I seriously doubt we ever will have it completely solved.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Mar 29, 2011)

In the book Natural Goat Care by Pat Coleby she says that a copper deficient goat will have worm overload. She said that when her goats had all the copper they needed they didn't not have worm overloads. I cannot say anything from experience, so take it with a grain of salt. But I thought the theory is interesting. 

Deborah at Antiquity Oaks had vet after vet tell her that her goats were not copper deficient, it was impossible because where they lived was not copper deficient. But she finally tested the liver of a goat who died and it was definitely copper deficient. So copper deficiency can occur even in places that the soil is not copper deficient.

As far as Cocci prevention. I lost a doeling most likely to cocci when I was only weeks into my goat "experience", so prevention is something I am definitely on board with, but I'm not going to use medication.

Fir Meadow has a herbal formula called GI Sooth that I bought. It is supposed to help prevent the diarrhea as well as killing the cocci and another common scours causing bacteria. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I can't wait to see how it does.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 29, 2011)

Please let me know how it does work?  

Again, I'm all for natural ways, but if that doesn't work, I will medicate before I'll let an animal suffer.  I know it is part of life to watch suffering happen, but I guess I just haven't matured enough to deal with it well.  I get downright desperate when my babies (children or animals) are hurting.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 29, 2011)

I am using Molly's herbals as preventative and am running fecals regularly (last week, 3 weeks post kidding and my doe looked GREAT, only one egg found!)  My kiddos are all on the cocci prevention protocol with the same herbs - getting weekly doses.  I'll be keeping di-methox on hand, though, just in case.  I don't want to risk my babies.

I read Pat Coleby's book as well and because of it, along with funky coat issues on my doe I decided to copper bolus - they'd never had copper before beyond the little loose mineral that they'd been given.  It's not how she recommends giving the copper but the copper sulfate makes me just a little nervous as of yet.  

I'm with you BlackSheep.  I totally believe in sticking to natural as much as possible - but not at the risk of watching my goats suffer and die.  I stand by that same philosophy for the health and well being of my family as well.  We are pro-active with our health.  We try to eat healthy, supplement naturally, and use natural preventatives.  On the rare occasion that we do catch some sort of bug that needs treatment beyond what I can do with my natural medicinals then we seek help.  I don't wait until my kids are suffering - and I think that's the key, recognizing when we need help.  We are blessed to have a pediatrician who supports our decisions and lets me know when he thinks it's time for something more aggressive.  I wish I had a vet like our pediatrician.


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