# Cobalt deficiency - thoughts?



## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

There has been a lot of chatter lately about thin goats and goats with white lids, we had the same problem with some recently. I'll go into more detail later.

I recently stumbled upon a very knowledgable bet that has many years experience raising and dealing with goats.

We talked in detail about mine. 

It's easier for me to vocalize tha  it is to type. I'm not very good at putting wording together as it comes to me.

Anyways she mentioned that we were in an area deficient in cobalt. Cobalt deficiency symptoms include, but are not limited to, weight and appetite loss, loss of hair coat, energy loss, anemia, and much more. In goats at least.

We ordered cobalt bolusand crammed the recommended doses down the throats of the goats looking bad but had good fecals.

In a matter of DAYS the four affected goats have begun eating better and putting on weight. They have more energy. They're looking healthier. I would have never thought of this.

Anyone else hear of this?


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## babsbag (Sep 16, 2016)

I know that cobalt can affect the flavor of milk, but I didn't know about the rest. I guess I should add  a cobalt block and see if they are interested and if it helps with their coat. No idea if I am in a deficient area or not.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 16, 2016)

Great point @Ferguson K 

I really like a mineral analysis done every other year on a % of the goats for this reason.

We have high iron which causes it's own set of issues

This site has a great chart on pg 4- It shows the interaction of minerals! Very cool! Pg 5 on explains what each mineral does! Also gives what is required! 
http://www.uaex.edu/farm-ranch/animals-forages/docs/ANSC_GSEnews_may_june2011.pdf


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## babsbag (Sep 16, 2016)

@Ferguson K   Did you just find another way for me to spend money on my goats?  I did some reading on a site that sells individual minerals and mixes and found this.

https://www.abcplus.biz/categories17.aspx?Id=Sheep_Goats_Minerals_TS-K-Mix

*Cobalt* is needed to enable rumen bacteria to synthesize Vitamin B12. Cobalt deficiency causes loss of appetite, weakness, anemia, decrease in fertility, and lowered milk production.

I have been meaning to try these minerals so maybe now is the time.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

Out here we're high in sulfur.

My does get free choice salt and this mineral:






I talked with Anne for a long time. She mentioned several years ago she went through the same thing as is. Fecalswere OK but still deathly anemic. If the body can't absorb b12 then it can't absorb iron. Cobalt is a needed mineral, in controlled doses, to absorb some of these essentials. She mentioned to me that she tried the bolus we ordered after much debate and it was almost instantanious.

she wasn't kidding. Zinnia and Annabelle have never looked better. They have muscle again. Damsel and shooter are coming back around, too. It's been four days.

We're going to do the entire herd.

A cobalt deficiency could be confused with Johnesor worms in many cases.

When she started talking about it it was like a light came on overhead. I'm glad I did it.

We're going to get out minerals tested in our hay meadow as well.

I'll post before and afters next week.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 16, 2016)

@babsbag  you have been talking about the individual minerals for awhile... my question is about the iron. It seems everyone has iron mixed in. I don't need iron.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 16, 2016)

@Ferguson K  where did you get the cobalt from?
Have a link?


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## Roving Jacobs (Sep 16, 2016)

I bought some cobalt boluses from a company in Ireland called Mayo Healthcare, that a sheep person recommended and had free international shipping, and have seen a huge difference in my angora goats. I'm also in a high sulfur area and I've seen better color, better coat, and no worm issues all summer. The bolus I got came with cobalt,copper, iodine and selenium and can be repeated every 6-8 weeks if needed (I haven't needed to redose that often). Next time I order I'm going to ask them about ones they have that are supposed to last all year.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

Uh.... Santa Cruz animal health I think.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 16, 2016)

Has anyone used the block and liked it or are the boluses a better choice? 
We have very high sulfur and my goats eyelids aren't SUPER pale, but not red either, even with a fine worm count.


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## babsbag (Sep 16, 2016)

@Southern by choice they have Cu by itself. They say that copper works with iron but the mix doesn't include iron. The selenium and trace minerals mix does not include iron either.
https://www.abcplus.biz/categories17.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Minerals_Cu-Mix


The Manna Pro minerals do not have added iron, neither does the SweetLix

Calcium, Min   7.50%
Calcium, Max   9.00%
Phosphorus, Min   8.00%
Salt, Min   10.00%
Salt, Max   12.00%
Magnesium, Min   4.50%
Cobalt, Min   240 ppm
Copper, Min   1,750 ppm
Copper, Max   1,810 ppm
Iodine, Min   450 ppm
Manganese, Min   1.25%
Selenium, Min   50 ppm
Zinc, Min   1.25%
Vitamin A, Min   300,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D-3, Min   30,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E, Min   400 IU/lb


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 16, 2016)

I know a few lamancha breeders that use a cobalt block. I'm not a huge fan of blocks but I would consider using it. It is not easy to bolus goats. I'd feel safer using the block for day to day use.


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## babsbag (Sep 16, 2016)

I just updated my post above to include the analysis of the minerals I use. They have cobalt in them.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

The cobalt bolus is about 3xthe size of the copper.

It's huge.

Doesn't go down easy in the smaller goats.


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 16, 2016)

I'm liking the block even more.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

I'll post some pictures.

Like @Roving Jacobs said it's the subtle differences that are more and more obvious with every passing day.


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## babsbag (Sep 16, 2016)

http://championschoicesalt.com/product/cobalt-iodized-salt/

Here is link to loose salt containing Cobalt.


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 16, 2016)

I'm glad you found the problem!


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

@Goat Whisperer 

Although I'm sure that shooter and Anabelle are permanently stunted, at least Zinnia will look like a normal goat again here soon.

Annabelle is currently the size of a two month old go, and shooter is about the size of a 3 month old. I can't wait to see them next month and see how they're doing now that they've had the Cobalt supplement.

I wish I had seen the loose version before I bought the bolus, that looks like it may be easier to distribute. I made by some anyway.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 16, 2016)

What if you crushed some of the block up for them to lick? Turn it into loose minerals? I've done that with mineral blocks...

Oh, and can you overdose on cobalt? Because it's really hard to with the vitamin b complex stuff and cobalt is a component of vitamin b12...


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

In theory I'm sure that would work.

I don't like blocks. I usually crush them up real good... well my husband does.

I'm allergic to iodine which is a huge component in most mineral blocks.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 16, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Great point @Ferguson K
> 
> I really like a mineral analysis done every other year on a % of the goats for this reason.
> 
> ...



Really good articles!


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## Southern by choice (Sep 16, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @Southern by choice they have Cu by itself. They say that copper works with iron but the mix doesn't include iron. The selenium and trace minerals mix does not include iron either.
> https://www.abcplus.biz/categories17.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Minerals_Cu-Mix
> 
> 
> ...



 FERROUS SULFATE, FERROUS CARBONATE, are listed- they are both Iron sources


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 16, 2016)

babsbag said:


> The selenium and trace minerals mix does not include iron either.
> https://www.abcplus.biz/categories17.aspx?Id=Organic_Beef_Minerals_Cu-Mix



I was just going to say that Ferrous sulfate listed in that product provides a source of iron.... you beat me to it @Southern by choice


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

I really like the picture of what minerals correlate in that article. Really gets you thinking.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 16, 2016)

ragdollcatlady said:


> I was just going to say that Ferrous sulfate listed in that product provides a source of iron.... you beat me to it @Southern by choice



LOL Yeah I learned to read all ingredients not just the values chart because we are so ridiculous in iron.... and like a dolt I wasn't reading it and one of my vet's said, "did you read the bag?"

 no


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## Ferguson K (Sep 16, 2016)

My one regular vet, who knows a few of our goats by name, will be unhappy if this fixes all my problems. 


I started really reading bags and researching a few months ago. I was surprised at how "complete" my feed already was and how badly I was breaking down minerals by supplementing with alfalfa pellets and beet pulp. Really throws off the values. 

I should know better on percentages. I studied poultry nutrition heavily and knife how badly little things can throw them out.

Goats are worse. Metabolism so fast two days can cause so much loss .

About a month ago, maybe longer ( @samssimonsays  may remember ? ) I added lose salt to the mineral bins. The goats have eaten 20+lbs to date. That's just SALT. The loose minerals they tend to ignore, but they really enjoy their molasses mineral buckets. Poppy especially, she's usually stained from it.

We have a new hay source for alfalfa, higher density and more palatable. The goats waste less. The juniors have free access, but only my milkers have access to it otherwise. 

Yet we were still seeing goats looking terrible. Full coats lost, fish tails, anemia, you name it. I changed diets two times in the last three months, saw no change. Put out an iron block all crushed up and about 50lbs worth gone within days. Bought anither, lasting a little longer now.

Zinnia ate a full 3lbs of grain tonight. I've struggled to get her to eat 1lbs worth for two months. It's funny how quick a correct diet plan and finding the deficiency can change them. Karma, a normally plump goat, has even improved. 

Of course the boer girls look the same to me. Big, fat, sassy.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 17, 2016)

This is great stuff ! I didn't realize Cobalt had such a big impact. 
I knew B-12's would increase appetite and always keep Rx on hand.
This is pretty interesting.

We are at the top of the charts in iron. 
It can really cause issues as it can bind the other minerals.
Also the top of the chart in Sodium, Manganese, Titanium, Aluminum, Copper,

Great levels for Calcium
Lower end on Phosphorus
Middle for Magnesium, Zinc, Selenium

As far as NC goes we are in a GREAT County for forage based goats!
Just that iron causes issues.

I guess that is why the goats are always so healthy and robust during the forage months. Winter is tough because everything is dormant here.


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## babsbag (Sep 17, 2016)

So why do the bags not list iron on the mineral analysis? That is a little misleading. 

@Ferguson K  My goats used to ignore the loose minerals, until I changed brands. They LOVE the sweetlix and my herd of 40 go through a 20 lb bag in a few days.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 17, 2016)

@babsbag I have thought about changing brands, but the manna pro is all I can ever seem to find. If I could find another brand they could have shipped to me, then I would do that. Right now we've got about ten pounds left, so they're going to have to deal with it.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 17, 2016)

Another thing to think of, which I think has already been mentioned, is cobalt is essential for the body to metabolize b12. A defficiency, or an excess can cause the body to create a foul tasting milk. Often times when people say my goat's milk tastes terrible, do we stop and think about what minerals they may be lacking? What does terrible mean? Is it thick & Hearty like they're deficient in Cobalt? Or is it heavy and start like they're deficient in iron? Different deficiencies can cause a change of taste in the milk. And since goats have such a high Cobalt need, and nobody really ever paid attention to it, it goes unnoticed. It can also change the texture and color of the milk.

Okay maybe saying nobody really ever paid attention to it is a bit overboard. But it's something that's often overlooked. What are you feeding your goat is always the first question asked when somebody mentions they're having an issue with a thin or skinny goat. I think the role that minerals have should be something we all consider a little more heavily. The poultry nutrition side of me has me doing a lot more researching than I ever thought I would, and doing a lot more talking to a caprine nutritionist than I ever thought I would. She has opened my eyes to a lot of doors.

I am by no means well versed in this topic, but it is something that I plan on researching further. I need to find somewhere that might let me make my own mineral, or has different options free choice, like the ones bad to use because I need to be able to offer my goats what they need in my area. A generic bag that has the same minerals that every goat across the country get it's not exactly what my goats are looking for.

If changing Brands can make them go from hardly touching it to eating a 20 pound bag and just a matter of days, what can changing brands for me to? It's like when I introduced the block that was high in iron and cut it up into smaller easier to lick and chew  clumps. We pretty much pulverized it. The goats eat the snot out of that stuff, and they turn their nose at the other. But they also love that protein bucket, and I've never really paid attention to the label aside from the fact that it's minerals. The protein and mineral bucket gets eaten really really quickly, and I don't know if it's the Molasses or what's inside of it. I need to look. 

The goats that have been in my head for over a year all look fine and I'm doing great, it's mostly the new additions that we are having all the problems with. And they come from a bit further south than us and I wonder what they were walking down there but they were not aware of. In some cases most of their goats were affected, and and others none. They too had tried everything under the Sun including switching out workers  was like they were a never-ending timepiece.

Don't get me wrong when I see it's getting up my first thought is always going to be is it for me? But my second thought will be what is it lacking.


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## Ferguson K (Sep 17, 2016)

@Southern by choice here is the link to the huge bonus

UltraCruz® Goat and Sheep Cobalt Bolus is an excellent source of slow-release Cobalt designed to provide all goats and sheep with this essential trace mineral in order to support growth, fertility, and a healthy hair coat as well as aid in the prevention of Cobalt deficiency.

http://www.scahealth.com/ultracruz-cobalt-bolus-sheep-and-goat-supplement.htm


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## samssimonsays (Sep 17, 2016)

It was just under a month ago! You told me about the salt when rumely was having his seizures. Wow. This is crazy!


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## Southern by choice (Sep 17, 2016)

From Nutritional Requirements for Small Ruminants
_(Excerpt)
"Cobalt toxicity will look just the same. 
Failure to grow, unthriftiness, loss of weight, anemia, fatty liver.

Sandy soils in the SE and Atlantic Coast - parts of Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Missouri, & Nebraska are deficient.

Legumes are higher in Cobalt."_


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## alsea1 (Sep 17, 2016)

I am very interested.  What type of blood work should I ask my vet to do in order to find out what is what before I start mixing and matching minerals and what not.
Water soluable stuff does not worry me but I am fearful of overdoing the others.
I am thinking some testing may save a lot of money in the long run.  What have the rest of you done in regards to finding this out about your herd.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 17, 2016)

x2


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## Southern by choice (Sep 17, 2016)

We had done mineral analysis through PADDL
I will see if I can find one of my reports...

I have files and files (paper) that I am redoing/reorganizing and many are in bins... cannot believe how much stuff I have for goats.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 17, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> We had done mineral analysis through PADDL
> I will see if I can find one of my reports...
> 
> I have files and files (paper) that I am redoing/reorganizing and many are in bins... cannot believe how much stuff I have for goats.


I googled PADDL, but couldn't find an online site. Do you mean WADDL?


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## Southern by choice (Sep 17, 2016)

No 
it is PADLS
Pennsylvania Animal Diagnostic Lab System
http://www.padls.org/


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## Southern by choice (Sep 17, 2016)

pgs 60-65


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## Ferguson K (Sep 20, 2016)

This is the size of the bolus


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## Southern by choice (Sep 20, 2016)




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## frustratedearthmother (Sep 20, 2016)

x2


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## babsbag (Sep 20, 2016)

I would buy the gelatin capsules and divide it up, that is the way I do copper.


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