# Gracee's about to kid! Or is she?



## Ariel301 (Jan 18, 2010)

One of my does is supposedly due on the 29th, 11 days from now. I witnessed the breeding, counted out 150 days on the calendar and marked down when she was due. But now I'm second-guessing myself! Maybe I'm just crazy with the excitement of waiting for these babies, but I'm wondering if maybe she didn't actually take on that heat, and ended up getting pregnant later...I never saw her come into heat again, but who knows? 

The thing that makes me wonder is that she's not filling up her udder. Shouldn't she be doing that by now? Or is she maybe just going to wait until the last minute? Gracee is 7 years old, and this will be her seventh set of kids. I don't know how she usually is, because this is the first time she's kidded with us; we just bought her last spring. 

I hope I don't go crazy like this with every one of these silly goats. I may not have any hair left by April! 

Here she is, Calico-Bluffs Oscar's Gracee. She's always really scruffy looking when she's not shaved, but there's nothing wrong with her, I promise! She looks like a different goat entirely when she is groomed. 







She's bred to our yearling Alpine buck...named Buck. (creative, I know) We couldn't get him registered because the lady who gave him to us disappeared and now we don't know who his parents were. Not bad for a free buckling, though.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 18, 2010)

I have a doe who is pregnant with her second freshening.  Her due date is possibly the 20th of January (previous owner says she had a buck jump the fence and gave me the date that she found the wayward buck in the doe pen. She does not have a big udder at all.  It is still high and loose.

I've heard that some wait until a day or two before.  I don't know, this is our first kidding, but I have been concerned about her lack ot udder, too.  :/


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## Roll farms (Jan 18, 2010)

My nubs tend to go on day 151 or 152 from the day I saw them bred.
I could tell more from the pic if I could see her udder / 'twee twee'...(my polite way of saying goat privates).

I've found my preggos tend to 'gnaw' at their sides a lot, like they're scratching an itch... it makes them look scruffy.  
I remember how my pregnant belly itched, I'd assume theirs would be the same way.


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## dkluzier (Jan 19, 2010)

My nubian cross doe is due January 23rd and her udder is huge already.  This is her second pregnancy and she developed her udder last year about a month ahead of time too.  Our nubian/saanen mix waited until she was in labor to fill up so I guess it's safe to say that you never know, they all develop in their own time.  

We have 2 pregnant nubian first-timers due early March who hardly look bred at this time with no udders.


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## Ariel301 (Jan 19, 2010)

I know she IS pregnant...it's just a matter of if the 29th is actually her due date, or if it's going to be later. She won't let me mess with her hind end, but here's her udder, as close as I could get. When she's in milk, her udder is huge; the ends of the teats hang just below her hocks. Obviously she's nowhere near that. 






She does scratch/nose at her sides a lot more this last month. She also keeps her tail clamped over her 'privates' most of the time now, instead of carrying it up like normal, and is really touchy about me getting near her rear end.  

I'm suspicious that the doeling sharing Gracee's pen might be nursing on her. The silly thing is 8 months old and still nurses any udder she sees, and my older does let her do it! Gracee has only been dry for about a month thanks to little Bonnie; I quit milking but she sneaks a drink any time she can get one. I guess she fits right in with my 8 year old doe who steals baby bottles! Gracee's going in the kidding pen tonight, so we'll see. Maybe she's just a last-minute type. 

She's not really, really round, but she's always got sort of a 'supermodel' figure...she's just naturally very thin. Our doe Flora who is due in March is already twice as big around as Gracee is!


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## Ariel301 (Jan 19, 2010)

Well, maybe I'm all worried about nothing. I went out to check Gracee and her ligaments are a bit soft. It figures she'll think about kidding in the middle of a freezing rainstorm. She's like that. 

The lady I bought her from says that in her experience LaManchas usually kid a week early, compared to other breeds. Anyone else think that's true? She's raised hundreds of goats of lots of breeds, so I'd think she would be a good source, but who knows?


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## Roll farms (Jan 20, 2010)

I would think with her experience, she'd know better than anyone.  I've read Nubs and Boers go over 150 days, and swiss breeds go under...since LaManchas don't fit either category, they can make their own rules.


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## helmstead (Jan 20, 2010)

I would tend to say you're nowhere near close.  I think you're faking yourself out on her ligs...esp if her udder is normally a hock-knocker.


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## Roll farms (Jan 20, 2010)

Off topic but I gotta LMBO at "Hock Knocker", Kate...I am SO stealing that one.


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## helmstead (Jan 20, 2010)




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## Ariel301 (Jan 21, 2010)

Lol hock knocker...that's a good one! 

Maybe I'm imagining things, I don't know. She's still holding out, and still no udder. She's just kind of standing in a corner of the stall with this dreamy look in her eyes, been like that all day today, and not really interested in food this morning.

These does are going to drive me crazy. I went out to check a few minutes ago and my first-timer doe was standing all hunched up and looking like she's having contractions, so I quickly dragged her over to the kidding stall. Time to go back out and sit with her now. Hopefully she's not teasing me too!


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## cmjust0 (Jan 21, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> She's just kind of standing in a corner of the stall with this dreamy look in her eyes, been like that all day today, and not really interested in food this morning.


I don't mean to panic you or anything like that, and it's probably nothing, but...well, what's her body condition like right now?  And what's her feeding situation...is she getting grain?

I only ask because depression and anorexia can be signs of pregnancy toxemia, the onset of which begins in very late pregnancy.

Again -- I don't wanna panic you or anything.  It's just that my ears pricked up a little when I pictured her as you described..  What one person may call _dreamy eyed and picky_, someone else might call _depressed and anorexic_.  Get what I'm saying?

Has she been on increased grain for the last month or two?


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## helmstead (Jan 21, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I don't mean to panic you or anything like that, and it's probably nothing, but...well, what's her body condition like right now?  And what's her feeding situation...is she getting grain?
> 
> I only ask because depression and anorexia can be signs of pregnancy toxemia, the onset of which begins in very late pregnancy.
> 
> ...


I've got to agree...that's not normal.  I have one doe who goes hypocalcaemic EVERY pregnancy right at 120 days...and she acts this way until I get a couple days worth of CMPK in her...so...?  I feel red flags, too...


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## Roll farms (Jan 21, 2010)

I have to say the same thing crossed my mind, but since I've only dealt w/ it once, I didn't want to say anything.
Propylene glycol helped my doe, almost immediately.


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## Ariel301 (Jan 22, 2010)

Her body condition is good...she's not underweight or overweight, and she is not losing any weight. She is allowed all the hay she wants to eat, and gets a couple of pounds of grain a day, plus free access to a mineral supplement. I don't grain my other does except during milking season, but Gracee gets it all the time because she just seems to have a higher metabolism than the others and stays a bit thinner than them. (Yes, she's been checked for worms) 

She ate some dinner, but didn't gobble it like she normally would. I'm keeping an eye on her, checking every hour, but she doesn't seem like she's ill at all so far. Her temperature is fine, her rumen is moving normally, pulse and respiration rates are good. Maybe a little uncomfortable; she keeps nosing at her sides and stretching. She's still got that far-off look in her eyes, but she's also curling her mouth up into a sort of 'smile' like she does when she is happy. I'll definitely keep an eye on her for toxemia though. It's a possibility. 

And false alarm on the other doe. She apparently just had a bit of constipation. I sat with her in the stall for a while, and after a little bit of straining and one big poop, she went back to normal.  I'll have to put a water bucket in her shed for her, she probably wasn't going outside to drink at all because of the rain.


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## dkluzier (Jan 22, 2010)

Had a doe last year who picked out a corner of the fence and laid there and moaned amd shewed her cud for a month straight before giving birth.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 1, 2010)

Hahaha that sounds like the doe I sold a few months ago. When she had her last set of kids, she was a drama queen! She laid around acting pitiful for weeks, and then when she finally went into labor, she screamed her head off for an hour and beat her rear end against the side of the shed, finally delivered two small babies in ten minutes, and then didn't want to stand up for two days.  I had to pull her to her feet to let the babies nurse. She was fine, just over-reacting. She was like that over everything, which is why I sold her. If dinner was ten minutes late, she'd scream like she was dying...

Well, still nothing from Gracee. She's acting normal again, and back out in the main pen. Maybe she was just acting funny because of the thunder storms we've had. 

Apparently all my recorded breeding dates were wrong...Flora, supposed to be due in late March, is bagging up now and looking like she will be first instead.


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## lupinfarm (Feb 1, 2010)

lol maybe you go the dates mixed up and this doe is actually sposed to kid in March haha. Wouldn't that be something.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Feb 2, 2010)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> lol maybe you go the dates mixed up and this doe is actually sposed to kid in March haha. Wouldn't that be something.


no lupin, no thats not funny at all. i'm here pacing around b/c i'm supposed to leave tomorrow for a couple days and my 'hocker-knocker-could-be-one-week-early la mancha-who-is-totally-bagging-up-and-they-make-up-their-own-rules' gal is giving me fits. 

i'm hoping she'll hold that bun in the oven until i get back. my hubby is under strict instructions to keep an eye on her and call the neighbors if anything funny starts happening. 

for heavens sakes. 

i've counted and recounted the days and wow this is going to be close. maybe. or maybe she'll be fine and my counting is bad and its really the first of march. 

golly.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 2, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> And false alarm on the other doe. She apparently just had a bit of constipation. I sat with her in the stall for a while, and after a little bit of straining and one big poop, she went back to normal.


            
Sorry...I'm immature, but that tickled my funny bone!


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## Ariel301 (Feb 2, 2010)

Hahaha chickie mama, it wasn't funny at the time in freezing pouring rain with the power out, but I have a good laugh about it now.

Since this was this buck's first breeding season, I expected things to go less smoothly than they should. I bred both older does on September first, which would have made Gracee and Flora due January 29th. Well, Gracee never came back into heat, so I left that date on the calendar. Flora did, about seven weeks later (yeah, weird length of time, I know...) and was bred again, putting her due date in mid to late March--I'm not sure of the exact date now, can't find the calendar. But it seems as though maybe the buck got in with them sometime in between those two breedings and mated Flora at least, but she had another false heat after getting pregnant, so now she's not due in January or March, but sometime in February....Gracee, I have no idea now. Everything says she is ready except her udder, and I keep checking her under the tail every couple of hours because she is so incredibly swollen I worry about a prolapse. And the third one, my husband's Mini-Mancha doeling, who wasn't SUPPOSED to be bred at all, was somehow, (how does a buck get over two 7 foot fences and then back into his pen without us knowing?!) and we don't know when she is due...we thought it was going to be December, but she's still keeping it a secret. But the later she waits, the better, since she's a first timer and not as old as I would like or as big. 

Just as long as none of them start kidding while I'm away from home. My husband can't handle blood and goo, and would not know what to do if he was here by himself when it happened! He has instructions to call the goat farm down the road if that happens lol.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 6, 2010)

Sad news.

We went out of town to church today. This morning I had a weird feeling and was trying to come up with an excuse to stay home, but ended up going. Checked the goats on the way out, everyone was fine, no one showed signs of kidding today.

Came home tonight at 8 pm. Gracee was in Flora's dog house, which was strange. I went to see what was going on. I saw blood on the ground. I went to look, and there were three miscarried kids on the ground. They are only about a pound each, no hair, very underdeveloped. I'm not sure what made her miscarry. There were two girls and a boy, exactly what I was wishing for her to have. I'm all broken up about it right now, going to go spend the night in the barn with the poor girl. She's crying for them. Her udder still has not filled up. I worry that there may be a fourth, but I can't seem to get a hand in far enough to check because she's so little.


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## mossyStone (Feb 6, 2010)

ohhh i am so very sorry... how heartbreaking for you and little momma goat....

Mossy Stone Farm Pygora's and Nubians


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## Ariel301 (Feb 6, 2010)

After an examination of the babies, they appear to be only about 9-10 weeks along. Gracee seems to be perfectly ok, she is eating and drinking. She's not crying or looking for the babies now; I think she knows they are gone. 

Any thoughts on what could have caused something like this? Could she maybe have been toxemic and never showed obvious symptoms? She's been acting 'off' for a couple of weeks, she had that episode where she was lethargic for a couple of days...she's been eating well otherwise, though. But the last three days she has been restless at night and isolating herself, only wanting her foster-kid from last year near her...who was also the father of these babies. I don't think anyone rammed into her; they're usually pretty gentle with each other and our buck won't let anyone mess with Gracee anyway. Would a necropsy on the kids be of any use? 

Gracee turned 7 years old this month, and this was her seventh set of kids. Maybe it's a good time to just retire her to a nice home where she can be loved on as a pet and not bred anymore?


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## Roll farms (Feb 6, 2010)

It could have been many things...most likely bacterial.

Here's the beginning of a long article on reproductive issues from Langston U.

Reproductive Disease: Infectious Abortions

General

Of all the disease problems which can affect a herd of goats, those causing abortion and reproductive failure are always the most costly. Estimates for expected pregnancy wastage in goats are in the range of 5 to 8% per year and, in abortion epidemics, could reach greater than 80%. Abortions can be due to many factors including malnutrition, temperature, genetics, hormones, stress, and trauma. However, abortions due to diseases that may spread throughout the herd have the potential to be the most devastating. 

When faced with an animal which aborts, it is imperative that appropriate procedures are followed if a diagnosis is to be made. Record the animal number, date, and any other important information about the abortion. Four samples (clearly labeled with animal number and date) always suggested to be taken include:

Fetus  fresh, chilled if delivery to a diagnostic lab is within 2 days, otherwise freeze. 
Placenta - as above. 
Blood collected at the time of abortion - if possible, allow blood to clot and collect the serum (pale yellow fluid that rises above the clot) and freeze. 
Blood collected 2 to 4 weeks after the abortion  as above. 
It is important to remember that many of the diseases causing abortion in goats are zoonotic diseases and can be transmitted to humans. Gloves should always be worn when collecting samples from the abortion and hands should be cleaned carefully after handling potentially infectious material. Pregnant women should not assist with kidding.

In general, it is safest to assume that all abortions are caused by contagious organisms. Always isolate the doe and dispose of all aborted material (fetus, placenta, and fluids) by burning or burying. Contact a veterinarian to determine a course of action and potential treatment programs. 

The rest of the article lists the various causes / signs / treatments...

http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/herdhealthII.html#repdis

eta:  I'm sorry.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks for the information. Because we still have two pregnant does close to giving birth, I am going to see about a necropsy and some tests on Gracee.


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## Roll farms (Feb 6, 2010)

I really think that's your best bet, just to be safe.  
Hope you find it is a fluke or not contagious.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 6, 2010)

Me too.

I'm wondering if maybe she just couldn't handle triplets and they did not grow properly. I never expected so many from her! Looking through my calendar of when they were bred and when the buck was in/out of her pen, I see that she absolutely had to be further along than these babies look to be. If they are at most ten weeks, she would have been bred in November, but the buck was not around at that point. He was last in with her in October, and not back in the pen she is in until a month ago. She was bred for sure September 1st, and could have been bred one more time in early October, but if she was bred then, the babies should have been more developed than this.


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## Roll farms (Feb 7, 2010)

I've read kids do 70% of their growth in the last 4 weeks of pregnancy, so they may be further along than you think...a vet would be able to tell you more.

I know it's easier to accept 'just couldn't handle triplets' than a possible bad cause, but...they're made to have multiple babies, so that's not really likely.  

Good luck w/ what you find out.


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## helmstead (Feb 7, 2010)

So sorry for your losses, and I agree with Roll...hope it's nothing.  I think I would feel compelled to treat the others with oxytet regardless just to be safe.  I know there's a certain risk in that, too...but have had to use it on preggers does myself with no ill effect to the kids.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 7, 2010)

Sorry to hear this.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, it seems a necropsy will be out of the question. No one local can do one, it would have to be shipped out of state, and we can't afford to do it that way. So we just have to hope and pray it was nothing. She was tested negative for CAE, CL, brucellosis, and TB when we got her and has not been exposed to any non-tested or positive animals. 

I gave Gracee some penicillin just in case. If I give anything to the other does as a precaution, do I give them the normal dose I would give a non-pregnant doe, or should it be a smaller dose? Should I treat the buck too? All the goats have exposure to the dead babies, they were all trying to help Gracee take care of them!


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## Marta (Feb 7, 2010)

thats 1 heck of a sad story,


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## helmstead (Feb 7, 2010)

Pen is not the drug of choice for treating abortion bacteria - it's oxytet.  And, yes,  you should treat the whole herd for the full course.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 7, 2010)

Sorry for your loss. It is always upsetting.


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## the simple life (Feb 7, 2010)

I just wanted to say that I am really sorry to hear about your doe and the babies. 
What a big disappointment and so sad for the momma


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## Ariel301 (Feb 7, 2010)

I don't have any oxytet and it's not available locally...anything else that would be ok? I have the injectable penicillin for livestock--but it is the only thing our feed store carries. I have some trimethoprim powder for horses also available. I just don't want to risk the babies I still have, one doe is due in a couple of weeks and the other I'm not sure when. 

I gave her the penicillin 'just in case' I guess less for the abortion and more because I had my hand in there quite a bit afterwards because I thought she had another kid, and she was also having trouble with the afterbirth, so I had to assist her with that early this morning. I didn't want to risk an infection from that.


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