# Which breed should we get?



## Janice (Oct 12, 2012)

My son is trying to decide which sheep breed would be best for him to raise.  He needs to make a profit.  He is looking mostly for meat sheep, but he wouldn't mind if he could also use the wool.  His favorite, he thinks, are Jacobs and Tunis.  Appearance is important to him.  As well as a Heritage Breed, not production.  They will be on a small pasture.  He wants to start small, but get some that he would be able to use for meat the first year and also buy some for breeding so that he could continue his herd.  Suggestions?


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## BrownSheep (Oct 12, 2012)

Both of those sound like a good breed to work with. If you want some butcher lambs for that first year I wouldn't bother getting them with your breeding stock. I would get just a standard meat breed for the first wethers and uses your own ram lams after that.


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## Janice (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks.  I saw some negative comments about Tunis on one of the forums.  We want to visit farms that have both breeds and taste the meat too.  I also wondered if he should look at hair sheep?


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## Four Winds Ranch (Oct 12, 2012)

I have raised Tunis and  Hair sheep!
The Tunis have awesome wool! They finish very well, but their finish weight isn't very high, maybe around the 90-100lb mark! So are a little bit smaller than some breeds! They are awesome in terms of temperment, good mothering instincts, very thrifty eaters, and lots of milk! They don't always have twins or triplets though, in terms of profit. Their meat is very mild, even the mutton has no"sheep" taste! I love the tunis as they are cheap to feed and can be bred to many different breeds!
The hair sheep in my experience, take a little longer to finish, but do finish around the 90-100lb mark as well! They are easy to get along with, but you better have good fence because I find they are escape artists, and are very agile! Lol, once they find out the pasture is greener on the other side, good luck keeping them in! They have a "no-shear policy" which is very nice. Their lambs are tough when first born, and the meat is also very mild! I find they are not quite as thrifty on the feed as the tunis and don't have the milk volume!  Their appearence is much more colorful as they come in many different colors and the Tunis is just white wool and red face and legs!
 Sorry, I don't know anything about Jacob Sheep!


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## Janice (Oct 12, 2012)

Thanks a bunch.  Keep the information coming.  Next we'll need to figure out where there are farms to visit.  I'll take suggestions on that too.


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## purplequeenvt (Oct 13, 2012)

There will be negative comments about every breed, but you shouldn't count on too heavily on them. Picking a sheep breed is really just a matter of taste and preference. 

I personally don't care for Tunis or Jacob sheep. I haven't raised them before, but I have several friends who do. One thing to watch out for in the Tunis breed is leg structure. They are well known for being down in the pasterns (at least around here). The Jacobs I don't have too much against, but the ones with 4 horns are a bit scary. They also are a small primitive breed so they won't produce a very large carcass for you.

Has your son looked into one of the "dual-purpose" sheep? We raise Border Leicesters and they are great sheep. They have a striking appearance, beautiful wool, and they also grow quickly to make good market lambs. The rams are known for their gentlemanly personalities (we've raised Border Leicesters for 12+ years and we have never yet had an aggressive ram of this breed).


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## Roving Jacobs (Oct 13, 2012)

I love my Jacobs but I'm not sure they're a great breed for wanting to make money off of meat. You would really have to advertise and upsell them as a heritage breed to make up for their small carcasses and long grow out time. If you lived in the right location and were able to make the right connections you could do it but otherwise I would suggest finding a more traditional duel purpose breed.


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## Janice (Oct 13, 2012)

Four Winds Ranch said:
			
		

> I have raised Tunis and  Hair sheep!
> The Tunis have awesome wool! They finish very well, but their finish weight isn't very high, maybe around the 90-100lb mark! So are a little bit smaller than some breeds! They are awesome in terms of temperment, good mothering instincts, very thrifty eaters, and lots of milk! They don't always have twins or triplets though, in terms of profit. Their meat is very mild, even the mutton has no"sheep" taste! I love the tunis as they are cheap to feed and can be bred to many different breeds!
> The hair sheep in my experience, take a little longer to finish, but do finish around the 90-100lb mark as well! They are easy to get along with, but you better have good fence because I find they are escape artists, and are very agile! Lol, once they find out the pasture is greener on the other side, good luck keeping them in! They have a "no-shear policy" which is very nice. Their lambs are tough when first born, and the meat is also very mild! I find they are not quite as thrifty on the feed as the tunis and don't have the milk volume!  Their appearence is much more colorful as they come in many different colors and the Tunis is just white wool and red face and legs!
> Sorry, I don't know anything about Jacob Sheep!


My son wondered if you were comparing the size of Tunis' finish weight to market breeds or other Heritage breeds?


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## Janice (Oct 13, 2012)

Roving Jacobs said:
			
		

> I love my Jacobs but I'm not sure they're a great breed for wanting to make money off of meat. You would really have to advertise and upsell them as a heritage breed to make up for their small carcasses and long grow out time. If you lived in the right location and were able to make the right connections you could do it but otherwise I would suggest finding a more traditional duel purpose breed.


My understanding is that the British Jacobs have a much larger carcass.  If we could only import that size we'd be great.  I know he is set on getting one of the breeds listed on the American Livestock Breed Conservatory list.  They will be pastured and he prefers not to go with the faster growing market breeds.


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## Bossroo (Oct 13, 2012)

Reality of today's sheep 101 !   Nostalgia and appearance in raising a "heritage" or "exotic " or "rare" breed of sheep and making a PROFIT  do not equate in todays's marketplace. Now they are nothing more than pasture pets ( hobby loss to the IRS and any production costs are NOT deductable unless  one proves one is in business for profit).   In the US today, we can't compete with Australia in price recieved for wool as it costs way more in sheering costs as to the sale price of wool, therefore it is not profitable to raise this type of sheep even for a limited niche market. Wool with any colored fibers in it will sell at a discount at the auction marketplace,  which means even less income  $s.  Some may claim otherwise, however they do not include their true costs of production as calculated by one's knowledgable CPA that is familiar in animal husbandry/ agriculture.  As for meat production, Suffolk, Hampshire, Dorset,  or standard type of Southdown are the most productive for money invested. However, the high cost of grain and hay as well as their need to be shorn, so the cost of sheering just may eliminate any profit from the sale of meat.   For the hair sheep (sheds wool), one would get the most bang for the buck with the Dorper.  If I was still in the sheep business, today  my choice would be the Dorper.   I say this from first hand experience as I have raised hundreds of sheep commercially ( purebred Suffolk for ram sales, Ramboullet and Corriedale ewes for wool bred to Suffolk rams for meat market lambs)  for many years and I have since sold out due to annual ever higher production costs and shrinking profits.


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## Janice (Oct 13, 2012)

Thanks!  Keep the comments coming.
What about St. Croix or Khatadin?
What are some other dual purpose breed possibilities?


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## Janice (Oct 13, 2012)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> Reality of today's sheep 101 !   Nostalgia and appearance in raising a "heritage" or "exotic " or "rare" breed of sheep and making a PROFIT  do not equate in todays's marketplace. Now they are nothing more than pasture pets ( hobby loss to the IRS and any production costs are NOT deductable unless  one proves one is in business for profit).   In the US today, we can't compete with Australia in price recieved for wool as it costs way more in sheering costs as to the sale price of wool, therefore it is not profitable to raise this type of sheep even for a limited niche market. Wool with any colored fibers in it will sell at a discount at the auction marketplace,  which means even less income  $s.  Some may claim otherwise, however they do not include their true costs of production as calculated by one's knowledgable CPA that is familiar in animal husbandry/ agriculture.  As for meat production, Suffolk, Hampshire, Dorset,  or standard type of Southdown are the most productive for money invested. However, the high cost of grain and hay as well as their need to be shorn, so the cost of sheering just may eliminate any profit from the sale of meat.   For the hair sheep (sheds wool), one would get the most bang for the buck with the Dorper.  If I was still in the sheep business, today  my choice would be the Dorper.   I say this from first hand experience as I have raised hundreds of sheep commercially ( purebred Suffolk for ram sales, Ramboullet and Corriedale ewes for wool bred to Suffolk rams for meat market lambs)  for many years and I have since sold out due to annual ever higher production costs and shrinking profits.


Part of my concern is what he wants as opposed to what will be profitable and practical.  We will be utilizing a local and direct marketing approach in order to build up the business slowly.  We may have the opportunity to sell some of the meat to someone who is established and can't get enough lamb.  This is not his only enterprise and will be part of a diversified business.  He also has chickens, ducks, and turkeys.  Plus we have a grain operation.  And he is an artist.  So, I'm hoping that with this diversity he will have some freedom to experiment for a while (he's just 16).  I appreciate your expertise.  Reality is always helpful.  Thx.


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## Janice (Oct 13, 2012)

purplequeenvt said:
			
		

> There will be negative comments about every breed, but you shouldn't count on too heavily on them. Picking a sheep breed is really just a matter of taste and preference.
> 
> I personally don't care for Tunis or Jacob sheep. I haven't raised them before, but I have several friends who do. One thing to watch out for in the Tunis breed is leg structure. They are well known for being down in the pasterns (at least around here). The Jacobs I don't have too much against, but the ones with 4 horns are a bit scary. They also are a small primitive breed so they won't produce a very large carcass for you.
> 
> Has your son looked into one of the "dual-purpose" sheep? We raise Border Leicesters and they are great sheep. They have a striking appearance, beautiful wool, and they also grow quickly to make good market lambs. The rams are known for their gentlemanly personalities (we've raised Border Leicesters for 12+ years and we have never yet had an aggressive ram of this breed).


Can you tell me more about Border Leicesters?  My son says he's knows nothing about them.


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## Alice Acres (Oct 13, 2012)

We had the Suffolks and Hamps, etc too, many years ago. They are not cheap to raise, and have so much specialty breeding in them they've lost out on practical things - they can't get by on grazing or plain hay, they have difficulty with birthing and poor mothering too. All they have is a large carcass and ability to really grow with lots of food thrown at them.

We now have "mutt sheep" - and they are amazing. We add in a different ram to the flock every 2 yrs - always looking at our ewes and adding in a ram that improves on weaknesses in our current flock. It has been a total success. Our last ram was a super built Dorper, the one 2 yrs before that was a smaller grade Dorper. Before that was a Cheviot cross (my husband wanted the mothering this sheep had behind him, and a smaller size - he's had back surgery and the ewes were getting bigger than he preferred). They have also in them a smaller % of Suffolk, Rambouillet and a few other breeds.

Our new ram for this fall is a polypay/finn cross - as the Dorpers added nice build, but we lost a bit of our multiple birth rates. So this round should improve on that. It's actually kind of a fun balancing act.


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## Four Winds Ranch (Oct 13, 2012)

Janice said:
			
		

> Four Winds Ranch said:
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I am comparing to the meat market breeds (Suffolk, Texel, ect). usually, at 6 months mine are about 100lbs, on grass, and the last 2 weeks I give them a half a lb of grain each. The katahdin, on the same feed I found to take at least 2 weeks to a month longer to finish.


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## Janice (Oct 13, 2012)

Alice Acres said:
			
		

> We had the Suffolks and Hamps, etc too, many years ago. They are not cheap to raise, and have so much specialty breeding in them they've lost out on practical things - they can't get by on grazing or plain hay, they have difficulty with birthing and poor mothering too. All they have is a large carcass and ability to really grow with lots of food thrown at them.
> 
> We now have "mutt sheep" - and they are amazing. We add in a different ram to the flock every 2 yrs - always looking at our ewes and adding in a ram that improves on weaknesses in our current flock. It has been a total success. Our last ram was a super built Dorper, the one 2 yrs before that was a smaller grade Dorper. Before that was a Cheviot cross (my husband wanted the mothering this sheep had behind him, and a smaller size - he's had back surgery and the ewes were getting bigger than he preferred). They have also in them a smaller % of Suffolk, Rambouillet and a few other breeds.
> 
> Our new ram for this fall is a polypay/finn cross - as the Dorpers added nice build, but we lost a bit of our multiple birth rates. So this round should improve on that. It's actually kind of a fun balancing act.


Great!  More info please  How do you decide what breed to start with?   As you read, he really likes the Jacob and Tunis.  I wonder if he could find a Jacob cross and get a ram that would breed some size into them?


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## Alice Acres (Oct 13, 2012)

Janice said:
			
		

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You sure could 
What I would do is look around and see what sheep are available in your area (or the distance you are willing to drive). If some sheep appeal, then get them. This time of year you also could be looking at getting bred ewes - we've done that and rarely gotten a bad deal. And with the drought - there are farmers culling because of feed costs, and getting rid of sheep they otherwise would have kept. (Sadly, that was us earlier this summer ) A truly good time is upon us if you are looking at getting or increasing your flock. 

My birthday is in November, and one year my husband went to the local livestock auction and brought home 4 bred ewes (and said - Happy Birthday!!). They were sturdy girls, and all except one turned out to be fantastic moms and actually their offspring became the ones we loved and kept every year - and led our pursuit in the branching out from purebred stock. We have had black faced, speckled faced, red legs, dotted legs, etc. Now with 3 consecutive white faced rams (1 Cheviot, 2 Dorper), we are mostly a white faced flock - but still have some pigment and dots.







Oh, and we went with the smaller sheep because my husband does the shearing (yes, it's great!), and after back surgery he needed some smaller sheep. I've noticed we are creeping up in size again (the 2 Dorper rams)...and the new ram is smaller...so next spring we  should have smaller sheep again.


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## boykin2010 (Oct 13, 2012)

I raise Katahdins and turn a profit.  They are very easy to work with and the purebred/registered ewes and rams bring pretty good money in my area. 
They finish nicely and taste delicious. Plus, they are good hardy sheep with no parasite problems and are excellent mothers. I really don't think you can go wrong with Katahdins.


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## BrownSheep (Oct 13, 2012)

I actually never ha an issue with my Suffolk and Suffolk cross ewes. They gained weight and were verrrrrrrrrrry attentive mothers. I really support Alice's crossbreeding suggestion. All of our ewes a cross bred now mainly Suffolk x horn Dorset x Ramboulliet and what ever sneaks in with the ewes we buy.  They gain weight pretty well ( suffolk and dorset )and the wool is nice ( Rambouillet and Dorset). With your son being 16 I would suggest he find an FFA chapter. It's a great program can't brag on it enough.


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## purplequeenvt (Oct 14, 2012)

Janice said:
			
		

> purplequeenvt said:
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Border Leicesters are a dual-purpose breed, but they are most often raised for their wool with the side benefit of meat. They weigh between 150-250 lbs, give 7-8 lbs of wool annually, the ewes are generally good mothers, and the rams are easy-going and gentle.

Here are some pictures to give you an idea of the breed.....

My sister (several years ago) with Otis and Arlo, 2 of of first lambs ever. Both were bottle fed and didn't have a mean bone in their bodies.





2 year old ram





Natural colored yearling ewe





Border Leicester ewes in full fleece


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## kstaven (Oct 14, 2012)

Stepping outside the breed part of the equation for a moment. Some consideration to the quality and nature of your pasture should be considered also. It pays huge dividends to match animals to the available pasture and this is an area where many just starting out neglect and thus pay the price in having to bring in more feed.


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## Cornish Heritage (Oct 15, 2012)

> Nostalgia and appearance in raising a "heritage" or "exotic " or "rare" breed of sheep and making a PROFIT  do not equate in todays's marketplace. Now they are nothing more than pasture pets ( hobby loss to the IRS and any production costs are NOT deductable unless  one proves one is in business for profit).


Sorry but I have to disagree with the above statement. We are a heritage breed farm and this is certainly not a hobby farm. We specialize in selling registered breeding stock - Large Black hogs & St. Croix hair sheep.  Now I do realize that there are many many hobby farmers out there that are just "playing" at farming & not making money but they & many others are helping keep us in business & there is nothing wrong with that. There is a huge demand for heritage meat!

Marketing is a HUGE part of a business, no matter what line of business you are in. It is very unlikely that folks are going to come knocking down your door for animals. You have to put yourself out there & make yourself visible. It takes time & investment. 

As to what breed is best, as has already been said, everyone will have a different answer & opinion. You need to research your potential market, see what is already out there. For us, it was the St. Croix hair sheep. We wanted a hardy breed, that did well on grass/hay alone, parasite resistant, good mothering instincts etc. AND we did not want to have to shear each year. They are definitely not as big as Kathadin so cannot compete in the meat market as well but are excellent for folks wanting to raise their own meat - hobby farmers etc. Input is small, output is good. St. Croix are not seasonal breeders so you can get 3 lamb crops in 2 years. 

Hope this helps & all the best in your research, 

Liz


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## boykin2010 (Oct 16, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> > Nostalgia and appearance in raising a "heritage" or "exotic " or "rare" breed of sheep and making a PROFIT  do not equate in todays's marketplace. Now they are nothing more than pasture pets ( hobby loss to the IRS and any production costs are NOT deductable unless  one proves one is in business for profit).
> 
> 
> Sorry but I have to disagree with the above statement. We are a heritage breed farm and this is certainly not a hobby farm. We specialize in selling registered breeding stock - Large Black hogs & St. Croix hair sheep.  Now I do realize that there are many many hobby farmers out there that are just "playing" at farming & not making money but they & many others are helping keep us in business & there is nothing wrong with that. There is a huge demand for heritage meat!
> ...


I agree with you. I have purebred and registered Katahdins. I also specialize in raising rare and exotic breeds of chickens from all over the world. It is a hobby, but there is a huge demand and I do make money. Can't go wrong with any type of hair sheep. Excellent mothers, parasite resistance, meat, temperment etc.


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## Dieds (Oct 16, 2012)

We have two Baby Doll lambs, and they are a hearty breed of miniature sheep and are so cute. I have read that their meat is delicious but we are raising ours for pets mainly. However there are farms that rent their herd of Baby Dolls out to vineyards because they are too short to reach the grapes but will take care of all the weeds and grass. Their fleece is also excellent.

http://www.oldeenglishbabydollregistry.com/about_the_breed.htm

They are easy to handle since they are so small so might be a good breed for someone new to sheep (like my wife and I) and your son.  



			
				Janice said:
			
		

> My son is trying to decide which sheep breed would be best for him to raise.  He needs to make a profit.  He is looking mostly for meat sheep, but he wouldn't mind if he could also use the wool.  His favorite, he thinks, are Jacobs and Tunis.  Appearance is important to him.  As well as a Heritage Breed, not production.  They will be on a small pasture.  He wants to start small, but get some that he would be able to use for meat the first year and also buy some for breeding so that he could continue his herd.  Suggestions?


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## Janice (Oct 16, 2012)

purplequeenvt said:
			
		

> Janice said:
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With Border Leicesters being primarily wool and secondary meat they would probably not be high on our list.  I think we need to switch those qualities for our needs.


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## Janice (Oct 16, 2012)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Stepping outside the breed part of the equation for a moment. Some consideration to the quality and nature of your pasture should be considered also. It pays huge dividends to match animals to the available pasture and this is an area where many just starting out neglect and thus pay the price in having to bring in more feed.


One concern we have includes a breed that does well on grazing and foraging with less need for grain.  Pasture is one thing we are working on before we actually purchase any sheep.


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## Cornish Heritage (Oct 16, 2012)

> One concern we have includes a breed that does well on grazing and foraging with less need for grain.


Our pastures here are in BAD condition. What little good we had practically got wiped out in the drought this past summer. We grow lots of "lovely" weeds here! LOL! Our St. Croix get no grain - they are out on a large pasture through the day & then when we bring them into the smaller pasture at night they do have access to hay. We also feed Redmond Conditioner mixed with kelp - 2/3 redmond, 1/3 kelp.

Sheep really do not need grain IMO, they are ruminants so whatever breed you decide on make sure you purchase from someone that raises them on pasture as you want to. My advice would be to not purchase from a breeder that feeds grain as you will have to wean them off of it which takes time. (Not pointing fingers at anyone here, we each have to raise our animals as we see fit.)

Liz


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## Janice (Oct 17, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> > One concern we have includes a breed that does well on grazing and foraging with less need for grain.
> 
> 
> Our pastures here are in BAD condition. What little good we had practically got wiped out in the drought this past summer. We grow lots of "lovely" weeds here! LOL! Our St. Croix get no grain - they are out on a large pasture through the day & then when we bring them into the smaller pasture at night they do have access to hay. We also feed Redmond Conditioner mixed with kelp - 2/3 redmond, 1/3 kelp.
> ...


In truth, my comment about grain should have been a duh moment.  I'm so used to dealing with poultry that I hadn't thought about grain and sheep.  Rest assured I would have and my son probably already has.  My primary thoughts, I think, were about hay and keeping costs down and having sheep that were more self sufficient.  I'm assuming that weaning them off feed grains is a little bit like weaning a bird off just bird seed and onto pellets which have much more nutrition.  (We have a cockatiel and that's one of the things we learned before getting her).
Thanks a bunch for your input.  I appreciate all the information!


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## Cornish Heritage (Oct 19, 2012)

> I'm assuming that weaning them off feed grains is a little bit like weaning a bird off just bird seed and onto pellets which have much more nutrition.


All I can speak from is our own experience. Our herd were used to some grain & so when we got them last winter we did feed a little corn. They were very pregnant, had had a stressful long trip to our farm & were not in the best of conditions. Hay was hard to find last winter so quality was not what we would have necessarily chosen but we had to  do with what we had. They lost condition & were not in good shape when we weaned the lambs. Needless to say they took a while to breed back by which time we were headlong into the hideous drought. This time though we brought hay in from out of state so they were getting good nutrition. They are looking fantastic now - like what they should & we are looking forward to a good lamb crop here soon. 

This herd was out of California in an area where they rarely get pasture due to the climate so being on grass 24/7 was a completely new experience for them not to mention a totally different climate. They had a lot of adjusting to do but they have done it 

I also know from experience that grain fed cows have a hard time adjusting to living on pasture. Someone once told me that it can take 2 years for an animal to adjust from being grain fed to grass fed & I can believe that in some instances. In pigs if you were to put a commercial, confinement pig on grass the chances of it even surviving is slim. Their genetics have been SO "played" around with that some of these animals can no longer survive outside. Of course a pig does need some grain input each day as it has a digestive system like our own but the genetics for grass on the whole still need to be there. 

SO depending on the animal & how it has been raised, it can be better to purchase from a breeder that is raising them on pasture alone.

Liz


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