# bad doe second time around.



## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

So I'll start with the background info.

My bunnies right now are a colony style trio. Male champagne d'argent (Sir Captain Overlord Nibbler), female champagne d'argent (Alfalfa), female Flemish giant (Clover) (REW).

they will be a year in May. Back in December they both lost a litter due to the cold. Was the first time kindling for both of them. I don't think it was their fault due to a random cold snap of -40°f the week they had them... And it being their first time something was bound to go wrong. They each had 12 that time. Yeah, huge litters. I would be butchering and selling a bunch of bunnies right now.  Stupid cold weather.  (Its really strange to be on a forum that its okay to say butcher and bunnies in the same sentence.  So awesome too!)

So, fast forward to last week.  I have 2 litters again!  The does are choosing to breed the buck at the same time, which is awesome.
Alfalfa is an awesome mom this time around.  She had 6, lost 1, and has adopted two of Clovers to =7. Her nest making leaves something to be desired but she is using a ton of hay around the babies, just not pulling as much fur.
Clover made an awesome nest.  Had 9 babies, all survived.  Gave 2 to Alfalfa.  Her nest looks like she pulled half her hair to make!

Now here's the issue.
Alfalfa is feeding her babies until they look like balls with feet.  As of today (her babies are a week old today) they are huge.  Each is the size of my hand.  GIANT babies.  Full bellies constantly.
Clover...  Clover, clover, Clover.  Her babies are alive.  But they are about 3/4ths the size of Alfalfa's.  And her babies are 2 days older.  The ones I put in with Alfalfa are the same size as Alfalfa's.  Clovers babies have full bellies, but they look, well, wrinkly all the time still.  Not at all like Alfalfa's. So either her milk production is way less, or Alfalfa is feeding hers 3x more than Clover.

These ARE for meat, and I'll sell a few just for feeding themselves.  
I was already planning on keeping two of the cross breed does to breed back to the buck and have 1/4 flemish, 3/4 champagnes for butchering.

Should I give Clover another shot at mother-hood this spring?  Or should I sell her as pet-only?  How can I determine if its genetic or not without spending a year on her babies? I mean, I will do it if I need to, of course I probably WILL to see what happens. If its genetic I don't want that anywhere near my herd and future babies.  She is a really sweet bunny overall, and has no issue with me in the box checking on the babies.  Alfalfa is the one that hates being handled, hates touch, refuses to let us pick her up, but is such an awesome mother that now I know I will DEFINITELY be keeping her. Because of her behavior I actually was willing to put her on the chopping block. But I can deal with rarely handling her and having a great momma.

I wish I could just combine the two of them into a super momma.  Great hair-pulling, great feeding. Although to me right now the feeding is trumping the fur, since Alfalfa is using so much more hay to cover her babies its a non issue.


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## promiseacres (Feb 26, 2017)

Not sure the problem... are you upset the Flemish x are smaller at this time? Flemish as a giant breed get huge, eventually. They are however Very slow growing compared to meat breeds. As long as the bunnies are fat and growing I think it's a wait and see situation. Also keep in mind it can be very hard to find bunnies who accept a colony situation.


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 26, 2017)

It could possibly be a difference in milk production between the does given that the 2 fosters(Clover's kits) are keeping up with Alfalfa's kits


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## Marie28 (Feb 26, 2017)

Have you tired giving her Calf Mana or BOSS to help milk production? Maybe she is feeding them but not 
producing enough milk?

Most breeders seem to do the 3 strike method. Personally with the first litter dieing because of the cold and not because of the doe I would give her two more chances, especially because she is doing all the right things.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

Kay, I'll keep her. And since the two from her are doing great with the other momma I know it's her. I'll take pics tomorrow. Show the huge size difference.


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## secuono (Feb 26, 2017)

Have you seen her feed them? Might be possible that the other nest is being fed by both moms and the other nest is being ignored.
You can also slowly swap out all the kits to the other's nests to get them to grow better, if feeding is the only difference.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

I've seen her in there. I try not to disturb them. But because of the weather up here I made a huge hutch attached type cage, wood n wire. So I can't see her feeding them unless I open the hutch to look in, disturbing the whole thing. 
My boyfriend says if I didn't have them to compare I'd never even know. I smacked him for that lol. He's gonna get a pic of them side by side. Same momma different feeder momma's.

I did a ton of research on colony living before I did it. This trio is great due to being together since 8-10 weeks old. With leaving two babies to grow into the colony there won't be fighting. Plus they're gonna get new digs in a month. Converting a whole shed into a bunny palace!


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## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

So here's the pic. My son is holding them, adult size hands.  same momma. One on the left fed by the champagne, one on the right by Flemish.







And you can lol. Apparently they peed on him. The horror or horrors for a 15 year old boy


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## promiseacres (Feb 26, 2017)

That's quite the difference!  Usually I may get 1 or 2 that do that and they end up "fading away"... definitely alarming with an entire litter.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

Yeah, if it wasn't so drastic I wouldn't have come here.  They're getting fed, just.. wow, right?!?! At 9 days old, if they weren't being fed they'd be dead, so it must be a production thing, or she's not staying with them long enough to get a good feeding.

So I have a few options, really...

Switch litters.  Is that even possible?  Or rotate half the litter with each doe every day? They're pushing 10 days old now though.  May have the colony thing working in my favor, since both does smell the same, babies smell the same, everything is equal.

I have a smaller cage I can bring the Flemish inside with, and put her babies in a box in the smaller cage.  Negative with that though is she may completely reject the litter with me moving her. Another negative, even if I keep her in the entry way, its about 40-60 degrees warmer in there than the hutch, she may overheat and have issues with that.  I can keep her in the shed in the smaller cage...

Move ALL the babies into good momma's box.  Risk loosing a few of the small ones, but that's better than the whole litter, right?

Close the flemish into her nest box with the babies for a few days.  No light but the box is 2'x2'.  She'd have to at least interact with them.  I use crocks for water, and hay/pellets for food.  PLUS I can pick up the calf manna tomorrow, and give her quite a bit of it on her own.  She won't be happy with me, but it may get her going better?  I am home Tues-Thurs (My weekends) plus monday and friday mornings, so I have time to watch and make sure she doesn't freak out about being locked in there.

There's no aggression between the does, they sleep together in a giant pile of silver and white with the buck. If I do end up having to temporarily remove Clover, I may not beable to re introduce until its time to move them into the 'palace house',..  Which won't be done until it warms up enough for me to slap a layer of water proof epoxy down on the floor AND for it to dry.  Looking at another month or more until then.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

thought of another option that I may have to do.  Bring the babies inside.  Bring the mamas in 3x a day, Clover twice and Alfalfa once and hold them down for feeding the babies.  I was reading on here of someone else doing that with a litter.  NOT IDEAL but a least an option.  Or feed them using milk re-placers. I'd take this as a last step if I start losing babies.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 26, 2017)

The one your son is holding in his left hand looks healthy.
This being the doe's actual first successful litter, I would wait and see. I wouldn't call it a strike against her, but give her two more at least anyway. At 9 days old, they will be looking around real soon and learning to eat on their own from observation.
I haven't done colony style, but that would be be my guess.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 26, 2017)

Well, came home to one baby with no suckle left that we had to put down (it was bad. Really really bad) the rest are not good at all. Took a good look at Clover,... her nipples are red but there's no milk. I held her and put two babies to Feed, she has nothing to give. Absolutely no idea why.

For tonight the babies (13 left) are all in with Alfalfas nest. I figure by morning I'll know. All the Feed stores are closed til morning. I have the whole instruction manual on feeding babies by hand. But Alfalfa went right into the nest box and there was no sound. Heck, she was checking out the babies while I was putting them in. 

So either she'll Feed them or not. I may be hand feeding 6 bunnies or I'll have one great momma. I'm hoping I'll have a great momma. I'm not afraid of feeding them though so might go ahead and supplement if she takes them all.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 27, 2017)

Pretty Frustrating I would guess. We've all had similar occurrences if we have put any time into developing a breeding herd.
I had a doe that didn't come into her milk until after her first litter had all died. By the time I caught on, the ones fostered also died. The doe teamed up with her developed mastitis and needed her litter removed for penicillin injection treatments. I gave them to the doe that had lost her litter, but by now had come into milk. She nursed the other litter to completion and all made it.
Both mothers since then have done great!
We learn a lot as we go, and a lot of it is still just practicing as we keep trying along.
Hang in there.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 27, 2017)

Yeah, I did a lot of looking up of mastitis this morning and it doesn't look like that thankfully. 

I'm going to be checking on them in a few minutes. Hopefully it's good news.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 27, 2017)

So the verdict is in.


What a good momma!!!!!!!!
 She has taken on the task of feeding 13. Only one still looked a bit skinny but one isn't bad and I think she was about to Feed again.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 27, 2017)

That is a huge task for her. She does sound real good though. Kudos for her efforts!


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 27, 2017)

Glad to hear that she is feeding all kits!!


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## Marie28 (Feb 27, 2017)

Wow! Thats a good mama!


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## Lowstorm (Feb 27, 2017)

This afternoon I checked again. All still alive, only one at a worrisome skinny. The rest were so fat they weren't moving. On the plus side she's gotten 'aggressive ' which means she's staying in the box and letting me touch her when I check on them.  Clover will be given another chance and Alfalfa is obviously a great momma.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 27, 2017)

Just a word of caution - does can kill themselves by being_ too_ good a mom. Over the years, I have had a few does that died, apparently in convulsions, when their litters were about 3 weeks old. In each case, they had large litters that were growing like weeds. I finally got a hint about what might be going on when I was moving a Netherland Dwarf doe with half a dozen babies to a larger cage and realized that she was trembling, and not with fear. The only thing that made any real sense was calcium deficiency. Long story short, I weaned her litter (had to; it might be hard for them, but it was life or death for her) and started her on a mineral supplement. Within a few days, the shaking stopped, and she seemed brighter. She made a full recovery. Ever since then, I have made a point of giving a little extra calcium to any doe whose babies seem to be doing too well. I think it has helped - haven't lost any other does that way, at least. 

If Alfalfa was with the buck when this litter were born, chances are good that she's pregnant again. Doing as well as she is with this litter, she may be at risk; I'd say the Calf Manna would be an excellent idea for her.


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## Lowstorm (Feb 27, 2017)

Yup, it's on my list, along with the supplies to help feed too. And thank you for reminding me. Mineral blocks!!!  

Amazingly the does aren't doing back to back litters. If they had, these babies would have been born a month ago. They had the frozen litter in mid December. Thmy had these litters Feb 17th. And they've been housed with him since June when I brought them home. I had to do a lot of research before I did it, and I really am glad I'm doing colony style. I know it's against the norm, but the way they interact tells me they're happy with it too. And now that they've been in a giant hutch since August I know the pros and cons of my current set up. Hence them moving into a shed soon. Can't wait!  I can make a post about it too, but 6-7 months isn't a success yet. 

The biggest con so far is my lack of construction ability lol. 40+ lbs of bunny is what I should have constructed for, I built the cages in a standard way. Yup, wires falling apart.  I've had to reinforce the bottom in so many places. Ugh!  The second it gets warm enough the shed is going under construction.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 28, 2017)

I give a tsp of Calf Mana to my breeders everyday when I give them a tsp of BOSS. 
My lactating does and does ready to kindle get a Tb of Calf Mana. My grow-out pens also get a Tb daily. If I have any Jr's growing out to a year old, they get a Tb.
It helps with their appetite some too, and they generally eat their daily alfalfa pellet ration pretty well.


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## Lowstorm (Mar 2, 2017)

We have eyes!!!!

She will only eat the calf Mana when I sprinkle it in the hay of the nest box, she doesn't like to eat it out of a dish I got just for it lol.  Stubborn girl.

The ones that fell behind growth wise are still smaller, but not nearly as bad.  And boy, are they active!  Jumping around when I uncover the nest.  Clover goes in and tends them right along side Alfalfa.  I don't think she's trying to feed them, and Alfalfa lets her in.  Crazy bunnies.


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