# What are my babies



## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

Color and pattern? I have an idea, but curious on if I'm right or wrong


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## Simpleterrier (Dec 15, 2016)

Does the mostly white one have color on its feet and tail


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

Simpleterrier said:


> Does the mostly white one have color on its feet and tail



No she does not


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## DutchBunny03 (Dec 15, 2016)

Second one is broken-patterned.


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> Second one is broken-patterned.



Right, was thinking a Broken Orange?


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## samssimonsays (Dec 15, 2016)

The mostly white one is a broken orange considered a "Charlie" as it does not have 10% or more in color pattern. The one with more color is a broken orange. Do not breed these two together if you are wanting to breed for show or to sell for show/brood animals, only breed charlies to solid patterns to avoid too little color. A rule of thumb is that 75% of kits will be born broken if you breed broken to broken but they can also be charlies which are broken with too little color. Breeding a charlie back to a solid will produce 75% brokens in theory as well. And a broken/solid crossing will give 50% solid 50% broken. In theory this is the percentage that you can expect. Of course you can always end up with more or less in any breedings.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 15, 2016)

They look to have nice textured coats! Are they Mini or Standard Rex?


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> The mostly white one is a broken orange considered a "Charlie" as it does not have 10% or more in color pattern. The one with more color is a broken orange. Do not breed these two together if you are wanting to breed for show or to sell for show/brood animals, only breed charlies to solid patterns to avoid too little color. A rule of thumb is that 75% of kits will be born broken if you breed broken to broken but they can also be charlies which are broken with too little color. Breeding a charlie back to a solid will produce 75% brokens in theory as well. And a broken/solid crossing will give 50% solid 50% broken. In theory this is the percentage that you can expect. Of course you can always end up with more or less in any breedings.



Deff not doing show, so no worries there and perfect, I thought that was the case. Thank you so much!


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> They look to have nice textured coats! Are they Mini or Standard Rex?



They are mini


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## samssimonsays (Dec 15, 2016)

welcome from northern Minnesota! A good friend used to raise mini's and another friend raises Standards. They have nice heads and ear placement along with beautiful coloring. I have a weak spot for orange


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> welcome from northern Minnesota! A good friend used to raise mini's and another friend raises Standards. They have nice heads and ear placement along with beautiful coloring. I have a weak spot for orange



I have a weak spot for color hehe


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## samssimonsays (Dec 15, 2016)

I did too. I had 42 rabbits and I hardly had any that were duplicate colors in does and bucks. I raised French lops so a bit bigger but I had orange, blue, steel in silver and gold, blue steels in silver and gold, creams, opals, blacks, seals, chins, chestnuts and squirrels all in solids and brokens.  Orange was my favorite.


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> I did too. I had 42 rabbits and I hardly had any that were duplicate colors in does and bucks. I raised French lops so a bit bigger but I had orange, blue, steel in silver and gold, blue steels in silver and gold, creams, opals, blacks, seals, chins, chestnuts and squirrels all in solids and brokens.  Orange was my favorite.



Oh my  <3


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## samssimonsays (Dec 15, 2016)

You have to look at them every day so why not enjoy the variety, right?


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> You have to look at them every day so why not enjoy the variety, right?



Exactly!!


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## Bunnylady (Dec 15, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> Breeding a charlie back to a solid will produce 75% brokens in theory as well.



Breeding a Charlie to_ anything_ will result in 100% brokens, because the Charlie will give the broken gene to all of its offspring and broken is dominant.

A lot of people get confused about what those percentages mean. Basically, saying that a cross will result in a 50/50 ratio means that, if you could do the cross enough times to get 1000 offspring, approximately 500 would be the one, and the other roughly 500 would be the other. In something as small as one litter, or even the entire lifetime production of a particular pair, the numbers could be widely skewed from 50/50, and it is still quite normal because your sample group is so small. It's like tossing a coin. If you toss a coin 10 times, you aren't guaranteed that it would come up 'heads' 5 times and 'tails' 5 times; it could even come up 'heads' 10 time or 'tails' 10 times and, while unexpected, that would still not be abnormal simply because you did it so few times.


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## Therry (Dec 15, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> Breeding a Charlie to_ anything_ will result in 100% brokens, because the Charlie will give the broken gene to all of its offspring and broken is dominant.
> 
> A lot of people get confused about what those percentages mean. Basically, saying that a cross will result in a 50/50 ratio means that, if you could do the cross enough times to get 1000 offspring, approximately 500 would be the one, and the other roughly 500 would be the other. In something as small as one litter, or even the entire lifetime production of a particular pair, the numbers could be widely skewed from 50/50, and it is still quite normal because your sample group is so small. It's like tossing a coin. If you toss a coin 10 times, you aren't guaranteed that it would come up 'heads' 5 times and 'tails' 5 times; it could even come up 'heads' 10 time or 'tails' 10 times and, while unexpected, that would still not be abnormal simply because you did it so few times.



Makes sense


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## TAH (Dec 16, 2016)

Welcome!
I am in alaska. 
Cute bunnys.


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## Therry (Dec 17, 2016)

TAH said:


> Welcome!
> I am in alaska.
> Cute bunnys.



Thank you so much! I'm from Texas!!


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## SableSteel (Dec 19, 2016)

Top one is Charlie castor, bottom is broken harlequinized castor. Breeding charlies can never create solids, but it doesn't create all brokens... You can get charlies too. Charlie x Charlie = 100% Charlie, Charlie x broken = 50% Charlie, 50% broken, Charlie x solid = 100% broken. Even if you are not breeding for show, Charlies often have a slower growth rate than other varieties, so I would avoid breeding charlies to anything but a solid (because that is the only combination that will assure that you don't get any charlies in the offspring). (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0093750)


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## Therry (Dec 20, 2016)

SableSteel said:


> Top one is Charlie castor, bottom is broken harlequinized castor. Breeding charlies can never create solids, but it doesn't create all brokens... You can get charlies too. Charlie x Charlie = 100% Charlie, Charlie x broken = 50% Charlie, 50% broken, Charlie x solid = 100% broken. Even if you are not breeding for show, Charlies often have a slower growth rate than other varieties, so I would avoid breeding charlies to anything but a solid (because that is the only combination that will assure that you don't get any charlies in the offspring). (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0093750)



Thanks for the heads up!


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## Therry (Dec 20, 2016)

She was bred before I got her, she's due Jan. 3rd. What problems arise with Charlie's? Anything? Or just slower to mature?


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## SableSteel (Dec 21, 2016)

As they get older, some charlies have trouble keeping condition and are prone to digestive issues (mainly megacolon). However, some charlies never develop problems - it varies largely on breed and line (for example, English spot charlies have problems more often than, say, new Zealand charlies).


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## Bunnylady (Dec 21, 2016)

The same gene that causes the broken pattern affects the development of the digestive system, Broken patterned rabbits have lower gut motility (in other words, their digestive systems run slower). A single-copy broken's digestive system runs a little bit slower than a similar, solid color rabbit, but it isn't as much of an issue. A Charlie's gut runs a good bit slower. One of the banes of the rabbit keeper is GI stasis, where the digestive system shuts down completely. Because the Charlie is running slow anyway, it is more susceptible than most, so it is absolutely critical that the rabbit keeper make sure that a Charlie has plenty of fiber in its diet and never runs out of water. Even with good care, a Charlie may have "episodes;" when I first got into rabbits, I had a Charlie Mini Lop doe that had one every time I bred her. She would kindle, then spend the next day sitting in a corner, grinding her teeth in pain. Fortunately for us both, things got moving for her a day or so later. I bred her 3 times before I finally learned what was going on; then I never bred her again. We were both lucky - rabbits often die of GI stasis; when a digestive system shuts down, it can be hard to get it going again.

Charlies almost never have enough color on them to be showable, which is one reason not to breed them. The GI stasis is another. To make sure that I don't create Charlies, I make it a point to only breed broken to solid. Some people will tell you that broken to solid breeding will create booted brokens (which have too little white to be shown) and that is sometimes true. However, if a solid has good broken relatives, it will probably have inherited the genetics for good broken patterns, even though it isn't a broken itself.


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## Therry (Dec 21, 2016)

Thank y'all!


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## Therry (Dec 21, 2016)

She was actually bred before I got her. It's nice to know this though


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