# Is it normal for male ram sheep to violently headbutt the walls?



## soarwitheagles (Jan 29, 2016)

Hi!

We recently built a new sheep house.  I attached plywood for the walls, with some 1.5" x 3" studs.  Everything was fine for several weeks and then...

About one week ago, we began to be woken up nearly every night with super loud banging noises.  Security video footage revealed the culprit...our American Blackbelly ram was violently smashing his head into the wall of the sheep pen. 

After 2-3 days of this non-sense, he managed to smash the plywood right off the studs...man, not cool at all!

I have some questions...

1. Is this normal?
2. Why does he do it?
3. Should I expect this behavior to continue?

Last, I was planning on wrapping a 2"x6" planking all around the sheep pen at the ram's head's height.

Anyone have any other ideas?

Thanks,

Soar


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## promiseacres (Jan 29, 2016)

Yes it can be normal, some are worse about than others. 
My solution is freezer camp.


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## purplequeenvt (Jan 29, 2016)

I have not found destructive behavior to be "normal" ram behavior. 

Is he by himself? If so, I would suspect boredom. Rams are herd animals too, just like ewes. They don't like being alone even if they are sharing a fence line or can see other sheep.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 29, 2016)

purplequeenvt said:


> I have not found destructive behavior to be "normal" ram behavior.
> 
> Is he by himself? If so, I would suspect boredom. Rams are herd animals too, just like ewes. They don't like being alone even if they are sharing a fence line or can see other sheep.



PQ,

This ram has been with all the other ewes for the entire time.  It appears as if his poor behavior is escalating because we keep seeing and hearing him headbutt the walls repeatedly, on a daily basis now.  If he keeps doing it, I may install a temporary electric wire.  I think that may help him amend his ways!


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## purplequeenvt (Jan 29, 2016)

He could still be bored but for a different reason. His ladies are probably all bred and aren't paying any attention to him anymore. 

We keep rams and ewes separate except during breeding season and we generally have a number of rams at one time. They tussle with each other instead of the buildings and fences.


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## luvmypets (Jan 30, 2016)

We have a Ram who is lone when the ewes are bred and he smashes his head against the stall door. He has actually broken it once, and if the stall is not locked he can break out in a second. Its our own fault cause when he was younger we socialized him a little to much. The only temporary solution we have found to this is sraying water at him. Hopefully you can figure out something a little more permanent


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## purplequeenvt (Jan 30, 2016)

luvmypets said:


> We have a Ram who is lone when the ewes are bred and he smashes his head against the stall door. He has actually broken it once, and if the stall is not locked he can break out in a second. Its our own fault cause when he was younger we socialized him a little to much. The only temporary solution we have found to this is sraying water at him. Hopefully you can figure out something a little more permanent



He's lonely and bored. Spraying him with water isn't going to help a thing. It might, in fact, end up making things worse if it annoys him too much. You could think about getting a castrated friend for him.


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## alsea1 (Jan 30, 2016)

Both of our AB rams head butted the barn. To the point there is now holes in it.
I think it is just their nature. If there are no other rams to head butt they are going to find something to butt.
Electric wire may save your structures but then they will more than likely move on to something else. Be very careful when around him. At some point he may try head butting you. Mind did.  Good luck


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## Baymule (Jan 31, 2016)

That's why they call them RAMS.......or maybe the word RAM was conjured up to describe the animal, then came to mean knocking the crap out of something with his head.


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## promiseacres (Jan 31, 2016)

Mine butt posts, sheds, each other.... some are worse than others...  while some of it might be boredom I have to agree part of it has got to be ingrained.


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## alsea1 (Jan 31, 2016)

I think it is a "I'm tough and powerfull"thing


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 3, 2016)

Well, I thought I would give a quick update!

I spent an entire half day building a "corral" around the manger to stop the ram from breaking the walls [see pic].

Male ram continued to violently head butt the manger day and night, over and over, and over again.

It got real irritating.  Local rancher offered to take him and traded a much younger, more respectful ram for this headbuttin' meanie...

New ram is so much better...yep, a real gentleman with the ladies.  And no headbutting at all.

The headbutter ram, got his butt kicked.  The very first day, he broke my friend's fence.  Second day, he was head butting many of the other rams.  Third day, he very suddenly turned into a very delicious mouth watering finger licking' barbecue.

Never a dull moment on these ranches...that's for sure!


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## Baymule (Oct 3, 2016)

There is no reason to keep a mean animal, even a chicken. You did the right thing in trading for a nicer ram. We bought a Dorper ram in June and he was 8 months old then. Now he is a year old and is still very well behaved. I keep an eye on him, but all he does is come up every so often, wanting under his chin scratched.


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 3, 2016)

Baymule said:


> There is no reason to keep a mean animal, even a chicken. You did the right thing in trading for a nicer ram. We bought a Dorper ram in June and he was 8 months old then. Now he is a year old and is still very well behaved. I keep an eye on him, but all he does is come up every so often, wanting under his chin scratched.



Yes, I totally agree with you Baymule.  Two years ago, we had super mean roosters.  They kept attacking me.  One day, they made deep scratches on the front of both legs.  I shot one.  Next one, I kicked...but too hard [forgot we were not playing soccer].  He died the next day.  Third rooster, simply broke its neck and had him for dinner.  We no longer keep roosters...only laying hens.

We just now starting to have a challenge with our rams fighting.  Several of the ewes have been going into heat.  The new ram is head butting our California Red ram as well as the younger 8-9 month old rams.  Each of the rams appears to be competing for who gets the most boom boom times with each ewe.  Today, I saw three different rams impregnate the same ewe over and over again.  I am not so sure that is a good idea...

I think it is time to separate the rams before they injure or kill each other.

So today, I worked on finishing a new paddock with a nice gate.  I hope to have it completed tomorrow, then separate 5 rams from the flock, then let the large ram have all the fun.

Please let me know if this is a good decision.

Thank you,

Soar


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## Baymule (Oct 4, 2016)

You have a lot of rams.....how many ewes do you have?


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## Bossroo (Oct 4, 2016)

The time honored ewe to ram  ratio is 32 to 1.  Any more rams and your holding costs totaly outway any perceived benefits that dig deep into profits .


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 4, 2016)

Baymule said:


> You have a lot of rams.....how many ewes do you have?



I believe we have 15 ewes and 9 rams.



Bossroo said:


> The time honored ewe to ram  ratio is 32 to 1.  Any more rams and your holding costs totaly outway any perceived benefits that dig deep into profits .



Bossroo,

Wow, I never realized that!  Thank you for sharing your insights.  To be honest with you, we were a little disappointed this year...for every lamb born, we had a ratio of 4:1.  4 ram lambs for every ewe lamb.  That was kinda disappointing because we wanted all females for breeding purposes.  I tried to sell the ram lambs during the Ramadan holiday [best prices here], but no one bought any due to being too small.  Now I am hoping to let these ram lambs fatten up another 6 months, then sell around the Easter holiday.

As a side note, I have learned that raising American Blackbellies for meat is not very cost effective [I have invested well over $6000 in initial livestock purchases, hay, grain, fencing, gates, medicine, etc.].  The only income we have received is we traded 3 lambs for 50 hours of outside labor.

I hope to sell the entire flock next year for $4000.  So this equates to a large business loss, especially when you include my own personal labor of over 500 hours.

My plan is to sell off the entire flock of American Blackbellies, then purchase 30-50 very young Dorpers at the local auction.  The Dorpers achieve selling weight at 3-5 months, whereas the American Blackbellies require 18 months before reaching selling weight.

Wow, what a painful fiscal adventure and learning experience!


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## Baymule (Oct 4, 2016)

@soarwitheagles I had the advantage of living in town and wanting. Wanting sheep, but nowhere to have them, so I studied. I studied for several years and @Bossroo was elemental in my decision to go with Dorpers. To be sure, we bought 4 Katahdin/Dorper cross ewes, bred to a Katahdin ram. It was a starting point. We kept 2 of the ewe lambs and sold 2 1/2 lambs for $6 a pound, hanging weight, plus processing. The other half of the lamb is in OUR freezer. LOL We bought a Dorper ram and put him with the flock in July. I will gradually buy up, buy better ewes that are Dorpers and improve my flock.

Cultivate customers for your lambs. Tell people that you are raising lambs for sale. If they invoke and interest, ask if they want to be put on your "lamb list". I enter their name, number and information in my cell phone on the spot. I think telling people I have a waiting list for my lamb makes them eager to be added to the list. haha My sales are small, but so is my flock. I hope to grow my customer base as my flock grows.

I would like to get registered Dorpers so I could sell the best as breeding stock and the rest for meat. That is in the future, right now I need to learn more about keeping sheep.

You and I both are in the right place to learn what is best for us and our sheep. We will go down the learning path together!

Bossroo, thank you so much for your advice on this forum. I learn something every time you post. I didn't know the ram to ewe ratio and now, knowing that, I am more knowledgeable than I was 10 minutes ago.


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## norseofcourse (Oct 4, 2016)

I have 1 ram and 4 ewes - but I'm sure Elding would be happier with 28 more ewes to chase and court and keep watch over   

There are a few reasons to keep more than one ram for a small flock, such as having two different breeds, or keeping unrelated rams so you can 'outcross' offspring and keep from inbreeding too closely.  But it's proportionately a larger expense, especially for animals you only need for a brief amount of time per year.

I have kept one of Elding's offspring so far, and I may keep another from this year's lambs.  I won't inbreed more than one generation, though, so I know I will eventually have to replace Elding, as the daughters of his that I've kept get older.  He gets stupid during the breeding season, but he's manageable, and luckily he does not get destructive.

@soarwitheagles - I wanted boys this year, for the faster growth rate - and I got 6 girls and 1 boy!  The law of averages works in mysterious ways sometimes.

If you are marketing for Ramadan or any of the other holidays, check the calendar for the next few years.  Those holidays move around, you may need to breed earlier and earlier to have lambs the right age/weight for them.  Some breeds will breed 'out of season' easier than others.  Not sure where you are, but there may be some months of the year you might not want to be lambing, if you're too far north and aren't set up for it.  Good luck!


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 5, 2016)

Baymule said:


> @soarwitheagles I had the advantage of living in town and wanting. Wanting sheep, but nowhere to have them, so I studied. I studied for several years and @Bossroo was elemental in my decision to go with Dorpers. To be sure, we bought 4 Katahdin/Dorper cross ewes, bred to a Katahdin ram. It was a starting point. We kept 2 of the ewe lambs and sold 2 1/2 lambs for $6 a pound, hanging weight, plus processing. The other half of the lamb is in OUR freezer. LOL We bought a Dorper ram and put him with the flock in July. I will gradually buy up, buy better ewes that are Dorpers and improve my flock.
> 
> Cultivate customers for your lambs. Tell people that you are raising lambs for sale. If they invoke and interest, ask if they want to be put on your "lamb list". I enter their name, number and information in my cell phone on the spot. I think telling people I have a waiting list for my lamb makes them eager to be added to the list. haha My sales are small, but so is my flock. I hope to grow my customer base as my flock grows.
> 
> ...



Baymule,

Very nice story!  And your patience finally paid off!  $6 a pound sure is nice.  I am happy to hear it is going well with you there.  Keep up the good job!  You have a small flock and that is ok.  For 5 months of the year, we have enough green grass, hay, clover, etc. to feed 50-100 head of sheep with no costs except the initial seed costs.  So that is why we are looking to populate with larger numbers.

Originally, I purchased the AB's simply because they are considered by many to be the lowest maintenance sheep on the planet.  Being a total rookie and also a full time school teacher, that is why I purchased them.  Oh, also, a good neighbor took me under his wings and he is the rancher that sold me the AB's.  Spending quality time over and over with him for the last 9 months has been a treasure, so I have no regrets.  Now he is a good friend and good friends are very hard to find these days.  So for me, he is a precious person and I love to hang out with him and he is worth more to me than all the sheep in the world.

I sure hope I do not sound mean, cold, cruel and greedy, but waiting 18 months for a sheep to obtain selling weight is simply way too long for us.  I originally purchased the sheep because I was tired of mowing the fields every year, spending upwards of 5+ hours a week doing the mowing.  So I was looking for good lawn mowing sheep at first.  Then, summer kicked in...I have had to purchase so much darn hay and clover and alfalfa and these slow growing sheep keep eating more and more and more!  We are presently over $1000 for the year in hay and feed costs.  There goes my profits.  Keeping these sheep is beginning to be more expensive than the lawn mower maintenance and the gas to run the lawn mower!  So I feel as if we are defeating one of the main purposes of keeping sheep.

So, here is my plan.  I hope to cut down another acre of Eucalyptus trees, and make it into the tenth paddock.  The local UC Davis extension professor is coming over next Monday to give me some irrigated pasture growing tips.  I think I may try to grow half of the paddocks with annual rye and clover, the other half of the paddocks with a mix of orchard grass, tall fescue, trefoil, and perennial rye.

I will experiment this fall [next week] with a much larger fava bean planting and then try my hand at making silage in April with the fava beans.  Finally, in April, I may try to plant an acre or so of corn and try my hand with the making of silage again.

Somewhere in all this plan, I hope to sell the entire flock of AB's and with the proceeds, purchase 30, 50, 100 baby Dorper lambs.

Finally, after I become very rich from selling the fat Dorpers, perhaps I can move to the Bahama's, retire early, buy a hammock, and drink lots of coconut juice.

Ok, just joking about the Bahama's part, but for real with the rest of the plan.  Please let me know if you have any suggestions!



norseofcourse said:


> I have 1 ram and 4 ewes - but I'm sure Elding would be happier with 28 more ewes to chase and court and keep watch over
> 
> There are a few reasons to keep more than one ram for a small flock, such as having two different breeds, or keeping unrelated rams so you can 'outcross' offspring and keep from inbreeding too closely.  But it's proportionately a larger expense, especially for animals you only need for a brief amount of time per year.
> 
> ...



Norse,

I kept the rams because most people would only pay $50-$75 for such small animals, and that isn't worth the time we put into them.  We did have a surprise California Red ram born here, and we may keep him.  He is a monster, very handsome, incredibly big and incredibly strong.  I think he impregnated a couple of the AB ewe's in the last couple of months, so it will be nice to see what type of animal arrives from this unusual union.

Both AB's and Dorpers will breed all year round [we are having new lambs nearly every month since January].  The weather here is such that it rarely goes below freezing, so I think the sheep will be ok dropping lambs year round.  The greatest problem we had was when a ewe gave birth to twins in July when the temps were 105F+.  Almost lost both of them.  I had to run to TS for hydration fluids, drips, etc.  Both of these lambs made it, but they each required extra special care for the first week of their life [as in put them in a cooler for hours at a time]!

Yes, I hear you on cross breeding.  We brought in a new AB ram from different stock a few months ago and he is doing his job well.

The nice thing about the Dorpers, supposedly, they reach selling weight 3-5 months after birth, but you can also sell them right up to one year of age without having to worry about the "mutton" taste.  So that makes this breed of sheep very attractive to us.  Our rancher friend tells us the best selling times are Ramadan, Christmas and Easter.

Finally, sure wish we had gotten your nice ratio of girls to boys!

Hopefully we will do better next year!

Have a great day everyone!


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## babsbag (Oct 5, 2016)

@soarwitheagles I don't raise sheep, only goats, but my cool weather born kids grow much faster than my late sping/105° kids. I also don't have as much problem with coccidia with the Jan. kids. I am on a very dry lot so parasites aren't much of a problem for me, but you might very well find that your parasite problem is less in colder months as well. That being said, it may not get cold enough where you live to make a difference either, the parasites might just be there all year long.


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## Blue Sky (Oct 5, 2016)

Head butting. I spray painted a face at ram's eye level on the stall getting hammered. He stopped but I'm not sure it wasn't coincidence.


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## Bossroo (Oct 5, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> I believe we have 15 ewes and 9 rams.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A couple things to consider.  Since Federal and State income tax season is fast approaching, the sheep, fencing , gates , feeders, barns, and equipment can be depreciated over time.  Hay, grain, medicine can be expenced. Since you now see that the Blcckbellies are not profitable.  Find a very good CPA that specializes in farm/ livestock.  Since you already made the decision to sell the unprofitable sheep,( you have no way of knowing IF you can sell them for $4,000 next year )  I would dump those Blackbellies at your earliest livestock sale asap to cut your losses.  Then recontact the Dorper breeders that you talked to earlier and make an offer on this year's lamb crop.  Better quality livestock will be more profitable than what you can get at the livestock sale.  Good luck !


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## Blue Sky (Oct 5, 2016)

Are there any horned hair breeds that can bring a little more meat than black bellies? I happen to have a good market for mine but would like to increase size and keep horns.


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## Baymule (Oct 5, 2016)

I sure hope I do not sound mean, cold, cruel and greedy, but waiting 18 months for a sheep to obtain selling weight is simply way too long for us.

No, you sound like a _sheep farmer_ who is trying to make sound business decisions.

Finally, after I become very rich from selling the fat Dorpers, perhaps I can move to the Bahama's, retire early, buy a hammock, and drink lots of coconut juice.

With Hurricane Matthew, the size of the state of Arizona, hanging out in the region, you might want to wait on that....


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 7, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @soarwitheagles I don't raise sheep, only goats, but my cool weather born kids grow much faster than my late sping/105° kids. I also don't have as much problem with coccidia with the Jan. kids. I am on a very dry lot so parasites aren't much of a problem for me, but you might very well find that your parasite problem is less in colder months as well. That being said, it may not get cold enough where you live to make a difference either, the parasites might just be there all year long.



babs,

Yes, same here.  Our 105 degree lambs are very small, and even lambs born after them have surpassed them in size and weight.  I am beginning to think maybe they were "damaged" from the extreme heat.  When I found them, they were 4-6 hours old, laying on the ground, unable to stand due to the extreme heat.  I honestly thought I had lost them.  Gave em' drench, water by hand, and removed them both from mama, placing them into a room used for cooling and storing meat.  Then I hand fed them with the lamb milk.  It took a number of days before they could manage on their own.

I am not sure about the parasites.  I simply de-worm every 3-6 months to play it safe.  One of the most well known goat/sheep ladies lives near us.  She has told me they constantly have had problems with the tape worms...another friend and rancher de-worms every 3 months like clockwork, so I figured I should do the same.



Bossroo said:


> A couple things to consider.  Since Federal and State income tax season is fast approaching, the sheep, fencing , gates , feeders, barns, and equipment can be depreciated over time.  Hay, grain, medicine can be expenced. Since you now see that the Blcckbellies are not profitable.  Find a very good CPA that specializes in farm/ livestock.  Since you already made the decision to sell the unprofitable sheep,( you have no way of knowing IF you can sell them for $4,000 next year )  I would dump those Blackbellies at your earliest livestock sale asap to cut your losses.  Then recontact the Dorper breeders that you talked to earlier and make an offer on this year's lamb crop.  Better quality livestock will be more profitable than what you can get at the livestock sale.  Good luck !



Thanks Boss!  I have a CPA friend that helped me with the Schedule F.  I think now I must show a profit within the first 3-5 years...man, I sure hope this works!  Now I am debating whether or not to keep sheep all year round.  Not sure now if it can profitable.  I am toying with the idea of simply populating during the "green" season with baby Dorpers, then selling all of em' once the green grass all dies.  I am almost certain that may be profitable.  If I find time, I will visit the auction tomorrow to see how the prices are on the baby lambs...



Blue Sky said:


> Are there any horned hair breeds that can bring a little more meat than black bellies? I happen to have a good market for mine but would like to increase size and keep horns.



Blue Sky, I have no clue at all.  Please ask the more seasoned sheep breeders here!



Baymule said:


> I sure hope I do not sound mean, cold, cruel and greedy, but waiting 18 months for a sheep to obtain selling weight is simply way too long for us.
> 
> No, you sound like a _sheep farmer_ who is trying to make sound business decisions.
> 
> ...


B

Baymule, I am trying to get out of the $7000 hole I am in right now.  I simply cannot afford to keep losing this type of money.

And according to the news, that is one heck of a mean hurricane!


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## babsbag (Oct 7, 2016)

Tape worms can be tough to get rid of; at least in goats so I would suspect that sheep are the same. You have to worm for multiple days in a row, like 3-5 and for goats we have to use a higher dosage than what is listed on the package.  I don't have a problem with worms as I have no pasture and the goats get alfalfa in feeders year round, they don't eat off of the ground, but even then I do see tape on occasion.  Worming on schedule is not really a good idea, but I understand the ease of it. The worms are building an immunity to the wormers and are getting harder and harder to kill so it is best to worm only as needed. At the least I would collect some berries from a few sheep and have them checked by a vet, that will give you a "whole flock" view; better would to be to do the entire flock, but that can get expensive.  You really need to know if you have worms and are the wormers working. It is also nice to know if some sheep handle it better than others, those are the ones you want to keep and breed. If you go to irrigated pasture next year parasite control becomes more of an issue.

Do you use a pour on wormer?

Do you teach at a high school or middle school that has a science lab? Maybe you can get them to learn to do your fecals for you.


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## Bossroo (Oct 7, 2016)

The young lambs that go to auction are those that are born in late spring or summer  or due to poor genetics, so growing them to finish weight is not cost effective. Also , they will bring in parasites to infest your pastures that would be very hard to irradicate.  Now, if you should consider to buy quality Dorper ewe lambs, grow them out and since they breed year round, I would consider to have them drop their lambs in late  Aug./ early Sept.( grass still brown so you will have to feed good quality alfalfa for a month or 2)  then wean them at 3 months of age and finish on green grass.  In the mean time rebreed the ewes as soon as possible after they give birth so that they will have their lambs  2 - 3 months after their first lambs are weaned you can  have 2 lamb  crops during your grass growing season.


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 7, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Tape worms can be tough to get rid of; at least in goats so I would suspect that sheep are the same. You have to worm for multiple days in a row, like 3-5 and for goats we have to use a higher dosage than what is listed on the package.  I don't have a problem with worms as I have no pasture and the goats get alfalfa in feeders year round, they don't eat off of the ground, but even then I do see tape on occasion.  Worming on schedule is not really a good idea, but I understand the ease of it. The worms are building an immunity to the wormers and are getting harder and harder to kill so it is best to worm only as needed. At the least I would collect some berries from a few sheep and have them checked by a vet, that will give you a "whole flock" view; better would to be to do the entire flock, but that can get expensive.  You really need to know if you have worms and are the wormers working. It is also nice to know if some sheep handle it better than others, those are the ones you want to keep and breed. If you go to irrigated pasture next year parasite control becomes more of an issue.
> 
> Do you use a pour on wormer?
> 
> Do you teach at a high school or middle school that has a science lab? Maybe you can get them to learn to do your fecals for you.



I do not think we have had any tape worms, but a lady rancher nearby has had an awful problem with them.  According to her, you can see them hanging out the rear end.

I have not yet purchased all the items to do our sheep fecal test.  I would like to purchase the items and learn how to do it one day.  These sheep were de-wormed the day I purchased them.  Then we dewormed them again in May.  And then again last month in August.  I suspect they did have worms in May due to lack of body weight, lethargy, and general misery.  Within a few days after deworming, they were like an entirely different animal.  It was amazing.

We used Ivermectin in January and in May, we then switched to Prohibit.  The Prohibit is what showed the incredible results.  After doing a lot of reading, we discovered there are three main families of dewormers, and that it is a good idea to alternate dewormer families each time we treat.  I understand the risk of building immunity to dewormers, but for now, I feel as if I have no other choice.

I am still toying with the idea of planting for silage.  Fava beans this week, then corn in the summer.  But I my biggest concern is if I can make the silage "ferment" rather than mold.  It must be done just right if it is to be usable.  Does anyone here have any experience in this?



Bossroo said:


> The young lambs that go to auction are those that are born in late spring or summer  or due to poor genetics, so growing them to finish weight is not cost effective. Also , they will bring in parasites to infest your pastures that would be very hard to irradicate.  Now, if you should consider to buy quality Dorper ewe lambs, grow them out and since they breed year round, I would consider to have them drop their lambs in late  Aug./ early Sept.( grass still brown so you will have to feed good quality alfalfa for a month or 2)  then wean them at 3 months of age and finish on green grass.  In the mean time rebreed the ewes as soon as possible after they give birth so that they will have their lambs  2 - 3 months after their first lambs are weaned you can  have 2 lamb  crops during your grass growing season.



Boss,  nice plan!  I found some Dorper lamb sellers up near Redding, but their prices were kinda high [$120 per lamb if I buy 20 or more].  Then I would need quite some time before they would be ready for breeding?  By the way, how much time do lambs need before being ready to breed?  A year or more?

I realized purchasing at the auction is a great risk.  But at $60-$80 per lamb, I was thinking I might be willing to purchase a larger flock, quarantine them for 1-2 months, and give it a try.  But I never considered the poor genetics.  Our lady rancher nearby offered top of the line ewe lambs for $150 a piece.  I feel that is way too high of a price to pay.  I also realize beginning with good stock is a must too.

Man, decisions, decisions!


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## babsbag (Oct 7, 2016)

Personally I would buy the best lambs you can get even if it means buying less. They are the foundation stock for your herd so I would get the best you can. And if you have to buy mediocre then buy the absolute top of the line ram and build up from there. I would never buy my foundation stock from an auction, they are there for a reason. If they didn't grow for the seller they aren't going to grow for you. Nobody I know takes there breeders to be sold at auction. JMO, but I understand budget constraints. Also, I would want my foundation stock to be tested for the common sheep diseases. CL and OPPV come to mind but there may be others. 

You should be able to breed your lambs the first year. My friends that have lambs born in early spring are breeding them in the fall.


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## Bossroo (Oct 7, 2016)

There is a reason for higher asking prices by quality purebred breeders which is they sell proven HIGH QUALITY animals that will produce quaIity offsping. I know that you understand the garbage in = garbage out principal especially in genetic quality.  So, buy fewer breeding stock and they will be more PROFITABLE than the poor foundation stock.  Also, the RAM is equal to 1/2 of your flock, so buy the BEST qulity genetics that you can find.  Google Dorper sheep to get ideas of the breed standard to achieve in your flock.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 7, 2016)

I've been watching  this with fascination as I want to get a few sheep in the spring. Even though I literally want  like 5 sheep,  it is in my best interest to get the best 5 sheep I can afford!


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 7, 2016)

I agree with the others. Buy the best animals you can! 

I read your post and my jaw dropped, balking at a $150 lamb price  especially if these are "quality" lambs. That would be a steal IMO
You should see the prices of some of the Dorpers closer to where we are. $150 would be a cull, from what I've seen anyway. I don't "do" sheep but I love the Dorpers. 

You might want to see if you can find a good breeder. Buying at auctions is not a good practice- at least not here.


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## babsbag (Oct 7, 2016)

I agree, $150 would be a steal. I know someone in Texas that raises Dorpers and she pays many times that for her ewes.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 7, 2016)

My Nigerian dwarf does that I'm essentially culling, I sell for $200.


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 8, 2016)

Yes, I hear you on the risks of purchasing at the auction.  And I also hear you on the importance of starting the adventure with excellent stock.  And I do not want to be stubborn or sound unreasonable, but...

I purchased the two Dorpers lambs in the pic below at the auction for $65 if I remember right.  I also picked up a Katahdin lamb at the same time for only $55. Now both Dorpers are over 200 lbs. and both are pregnant too.  I will do my best to take a pic of them now.

Perhaps I was just plain lucky.  I was hoping to purchase an entire flock of 30-100 Dorpers, and I would like to pay $55-$60 per head.  Local ranchers are asking anywhere from $150 up to $250 a head!  Ouch!  That is way beyond our present budget.  I realize purchasing from an auction is somewhat of a gamble, but so far, I have done ok there...


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 8, 2016)

Glad it worked out for you.

I'm not one to gamble.  You are bound to loose at one point or another and if/when you get something like Johne's one your land you can hang up the thought of having ruminants for a long, long time. Not to mention all the cost that comes along with it..

I don't know much about sheep, but I'd recommend finding a very nice ram to help improve the 2 ewes you have right now. @Bossroo could probably give some pointers.


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## babsbag (Oct 8, 2016)

I know that sometimes you can find good bargains at auctions, I know of a few really nice goats that have gone that way, but it is rare. I would really be concerned about disease and lack of vigorous genetics. But I understand the financial end of it but if you get burned it could take years to recover; just be very careful.


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 9, 2016)

Wow, so many warnings...so many dangers...so many risks...

Well then, I have another idea...

How about I sell off my entire flock of AB's around Christmas time, then purchase 10-15 well bred Dorper ewes that are pregnant from a reputable seller?

How's that for a compromise?


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## babsbag (Oct 9, 2016)

Perfect.   If you were buying sheep to raise and put in your freezer that would be one thing, but as breeders that is just a big risk. I talked to my friend in KY that raises Katahdins and she says the same thing, buying at an auction is just too risky for breeding stock. She takes her young slaughter rams there and her cull ewe lambs, but if a sheep is worth owning then she sells it private treaty.  In the long run you will so much happier. 

You might look at Katahdins too, they are another fast growing hair breed that you might like. Dorpers and Katahdins make a good mix too. 

Are your ABs registered?


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 9, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Perfect.   If you were buying sheep to raise and put in your freezer that would be one thing, but as breeders that is just a big risk. I talked to my friend in KY that raises Katahdins and she says the same thing, buying at an auction is just too risky for breeding stock. She takes her young slaughter rams there and her cull ewe lambs, but if a sheep is worth owning then she sells it private treaty.  In the long run you will so much happier.
> 
> You might look at Katahdins too, they are another fast growing hair breed that you might like. Dorpers and Katahdins make a good mix too.
> 
> Are your ABs registered?



Hi Babs,

Yes, most of the buyers at the auction were butchers and they were purchasing 20-50 at a time.  And they were purchasing the sheep to butcher within the next few days, so quality of stock, disease, etc. probably wasn't a major issue for them.  One man I met at the auction was purchasing lambs with the express intention of grain feeding for 4-6 weeks, then selling and making a handsome profit.  I watched him purchase a flock of 20 lambs for $55 per head.  I thought that was a very nice deal.  But he wasn't breeding or anything like that...it was all about butchering...

The AB's we purchased are not registered.  I suspect some of them are 100% purebred [and they meet the standards for registration] while others have either Dorper and/or Katahdin mix with the AB.  The rancher I purchased the AB's from is not into registering them at all.  He simply raises them to sell for meat.  His California Reds on the other hand are all registered.

Well, by Christmas time, our flock should have another 8-12 more lambs [some of the ewes look like they will drop their lambs in the next 30 days].  So that should put us up to 30-35 sheep.  I think I could sell the entire flock and then use the proceeds to switch over to Dorpers then.  The other option is to wait until Easter, and then we would probably obtain a better price for the flock, because most of our present lambs will be selling weight by then...

Dang, I so much wish I had started with Dorpers instead of the AB's now.


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## Bossroo (Oct 9, 2016)

If it was me , I would sell all of the Blackbellies ASAP and let someone else feed them out / lamb them out.  They will bring the same price now as later , however you will have much more labor as well as feed into them.  I would also go back and Google Dorper sheep and read farm information on those farms that breed from imported stock as well as embrio implants and also sell at National Ram Sales to buy a high quality RAM to build you sheep band on.   You have a few purebred Dorper farms fairly close to you bo select your ewe lambs from.


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## Baymule (Oct 9, 2016)

Bossroo is right as usual. Have you thought about the idea of selling lambs to people wanting breeding stock? You could bet a better price for breeding stock, then sell culls for meat. You sell enough breeding stock quality lambs, your initial purchase will pay for itself.

You would be better off to buy fewer, better quality ewes and a ram, then build your own flock of high quality sheep.


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## babsbag (Oct 9, 2016)

My friend sent me a list of Dorper breeders that you might want to look at. 

www.dorper.org/PDF-FindBreeder/SW.pdf


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 9, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> If it was me , I would sell all of the Blackbellies ASAP and let someone else feed them out / lamb them out.  They will bring the same price now as later , however you will have much more labor as well as feed into them.  I would also go back and Google Dorper sheep and read farm information on those farms that breed from imported stock as well as embrio implants and also sell at National Ram Sales to buy a high quality RAM to build you sheep band on.   You have a few purebred Dorper farms fairly close to you bo select your ewe lambs from.



Not quite.  Right now, I only have offers of $75 for the AB lambs, but come Christmas and Easter, I can easily obtain $150 per lamb because most will be at selling weight by then.  So that is double the money.  I am not interested in registered or show sheep at all.  I simply am looking for healthy Dorper sheep that will give birth to healthy Dorper lambs.  Several of the local Dorper ranchers are asking astronomical prices...as in $250-$400 per sheep!  In my mind, that is far too high of a price to pay for a Dorper.  I kind of wish I had purchased the 20 Dorper ewe lambs in April from a well known rancher up near Redding.  He was asking $125 per lamb.  By now, those little lambs would be well on their way to 150 lbs and soon to be ready to breed.  I suppose I will begin to look for a local rancher that has healthy pregnant Dorper ewes for a reasonable price.  The most well known local rancher offered me excellent stock Dorper lambs for $150 each but nearly all of them had the tape worm hanging out their rear end.  They told me their pasture was "infected".

People keep telling me the auction is asking for disaster.  Well, I see disasters in higher priced sheep that are not from the auction.  And the two Dorpers I purchased at the auction are thriving.

Not wanting to be argumentative, but I cannot justify paying outrageous prices for sheep.

Here is a good example of what I consider local lamb price insanity:

http://wsdorpers.com/sheep_for_sale

Notice the prices: $500, $500, $400 and the "super" deal at ONLY $475.  So sorry, and not meaning to offend anybody, but to pay that amount for a lamb in my mind is a form of insanity! 

I will either find a local rancher with healthy Dorpers or take my chances at the auction, quarantine and treat them for 60 days, and start from there.

Last, I hope to purchase the fecal testing kits so I can test on sight before purchasing sheep from local ranchers.

Bossroo, thank you for sharing your insights and advice.  I have learned very much from you.  But some of your information was not accurate.  I recently watched my friend sell his AB lambs that were only a few months older than mine, and he was getting $175 per head, and he would not drop the price even one penny, and he sold every lamb he had...as in over 100 of them.  Several of the buyers were trying to haggle him down, and he would not budge.  He got his asking price, even when people purchased 5 or more at a time.  Mine were simply too small at the time.  Give my lambs another 3-5 months, and they should be ready.



Baymule said:


> Bossroo is right as usual. Have you thought about the idea of selling lambs to people wanting breeding stock? You could bet a better price for breeding stock, then sell culls for meat. You sell enough breeding stock quality lambs, your initial purchase will pay for itself.
> 
> You would be better off to buy fewer, better quality ewes and a ram, then build your own flock of high quality sheep.



Great ideas again Baymule.  I never considered raising breeding stock.  I think it is possible that there is too much competition in my area.  I will have to look into it a little more deeply.


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## babsbag (Oct 10, 2016)

There are disasters waiting around every corner with livestock. But if you buy from a private party you can ask for some testing to be done and you can see their overall herd health. I am more worried about biosecurity than growth rate. You can always get better sheep and a great ram and breed up from there but if you bring disease onto your land you will be stuck with nothing for years and years. Quarantine will tell you somethings but it won't tell you about diseases that are lurking with no outward signs; some of them you need to test for. I bought my first goats with NO idea about goats and got lucky, but it could have gone south just as easily. Now that I know what I am looking at I only buy tested animals from clean herds.  

If you buy the ewes for $150 and she throws twins and you sell them both she has paid for herself. I would have no "profit" the first year and healthy animals than spending the first year paying a vet or culling my flock due to illness. 

Personally I would buy my breeding stock from more than one flock too, a little genetic diversity can be very nice. If you get a reputation for healthy sheep at reasonable prices you will have no reason not to be able to sell breeding stock. There are a lot of people looking for healthy animals without breaking the bank, the same as you are. 4H and FFA kids are always looking for lambs too.


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## SheepGirl (Dec 6, 2016)

Any update on your flock?

By the way -- if you buy Dorpers priced at $300+, they will produce lambs that can be sold for the same. If you buy sheep that are $50 each, then you will just be producing more $50 sheep.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 6, 2016)

SheepGirl said:


> Any update on your flock?
> 
> By the way -- if you buy Dorpers priced at $300+, they will produce lambs that can be sold for the same. If you buy sheep that are $50 each, then you will just be producing more $50 sheep.



Thank you for asking Sheepgirl.

Well, to be honest with you, I feel as if I missed the opportunity of a lifetime.  I was visiting a place and they were selling 19 pregnant Dorpers for $37.50 each.  Still kicking myself in the butt for hesitating...and I missed the deal.

I know most people here are saying do not purchase unless it is a known local...but heck, I can't see how I could have gone wrong with 19 pregnant Dorpers for $37.50 each.  I would have quarantined them for 60 days and then would have had a flock of 57 or more Dorpers in less than two months time...and all for the pretty price of $712.  That equals $12.50 per sheep and we have all the free grass they would need for the next 6 months or so.  Dang, that sure seems hard to beat.  Many people here are selling 2 Dorpers for more than $712!  Crazy world!

So, I have not populated with Dorpers yet.  We still have the two Dorpers lambs I purchased last year at the auction...and I paid $55 or $65 per sheep then.  Now they are no longer lambs...they are the largest sheep in our flock, weighing in at approximately 180lbs.  They keep looking like they are pregnant, but I think they are simply pigging out on all the free grass, forbs, etc. in our back forest.  They are nearly triple the weight of most of our other lambs.

Our American Blackbellies ewes are dropping lambs again.  We had two sets of twins within a one week period.  Healthy as can be.  Have a bunch more American Blackbelly ewes that are pregnant and getting ready to drop.  I am thinking within two months our nice little flock from last year will have quadrupled.  It is true, these sheep lamb every 8 months or so and because we are feeding them well, they should nearly all twin or triplet.

I doubled the size of our manger to accommodate all the new arrivals.  Now I am thinking about quadrupling the size of the manger...

So that is our update.  Good news, but I wish I could have told everyone I purchased 19 pregnant Dorpers for $37.50 each!

BTW, in this neck of the woods, I can easily sell well fed 4-6 month old Dorpers for $150 all day long and have a line of people at our gate.  8-10 month Dorpers here easily sell for $200+, all day long, with people lined up at the gate.  So perhaps the prices are different according to locale.  I am not sure about that, but I do know most people here do not even ask much about the sheep before purchasing them...they simply want to butcher them and eat them.

Oh, one more strange event...

One our our American Blackbelly ewes began to limp really bad.  On the second day, she wouldn't even let her left rear hoof touch the ground.  Scared the heck out of me because I thought it may be foot rot because we have never trimmed any hooves here.

Well, rounded up the flock, plucked little miss limpy out of the flock, built a sheep chair, and set her down.  Looked and looked again and again, but couldn't find anything wrong with her foot!  Since I had purchased brand new hoof trimmers, I thought I would give it a shot...trimmed her hooves even though they didn't need it that much.  Gave her a shot of penicillin just in case, and quarantined her.  Not seeing any difference.  So now, I am not sure what to do...

Anyone have any suggestions?

Thank you!


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## Latestarter (Dec 7, 2016)

@mysunwolf @Sheepshape @norseofcourse @purplequeenvt @SheepGirl   Sorry you have a limper... Hope it's nothing serious and she just twisted it or something. Sorry to hear you missed out on that sale... I'd have been kicking myself.


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## Sheepshape (Dec 7, 2016)

soarwitheagles...she may just have twisted her hoof, but did you check where the hoof meets the leg? This is the area affected by CODD (contagious ovine digital dermatitis)...if this is present the area will be swollen and hot....responds well to high doses of penicillin and anti-inflammatories.

Over here the Ministry of Ag. now says that hooves should not be trimmed. A sheep which has a painful hoof will grow long hooves as they are not putting the hoof to the ground. Cutting back the hoof will expose the sore area for the sheep to walk on and increase lameness. Once the sheep is back walking normally the hoof will wear down. Government guidelines now say treat footrot with a long acting injected tetracycline and an iodine scary locally with no trimming. I've been adhering to this practice for a while and it works.I still trim very overgrown and dehiscing hooves under which dirt, stones etc can collect who the animal has no active disease (even found a fence staple in there once).

All but the very wise have missed out on some good deal or other over the years. Always console yourself with the adage "If an offer looks too good to be true, it probably is". Unless you're sure about the folk you are buying from and the flock that sheep have come from, then you could be landed with Johne's, caseating lymphadenitis or lambs where the father was either of a different breed or was way too closely related to his lambs.You'll get what you want in the end.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 7, 2016)

Thanks for the great advice everyone!  We will keep a close eye on little limpy ewe!

A local rancher was trying to console me after missing the sheep deal.  He said, "Look at it like this: maybe all the babies would have been half miniature sheep and half pygmy goat!"  Needless to say, I didn't feel very consoled and had to buy another box of Kleenex's to wipe away all the crocodile tears...


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## Baymule (Dec 7, 2016)

Before we bought our sheep, I missed a deal of 15 Dorper ewes and a ram for $1500. The ad was up less than an hour. The people were moving and had to get rid of them.


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## Mike CHS (Dec 7, 2016)

I have seen a few of those deals but they don't last long.


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## FunInTheSun (Jun 24, 2020)

soarwitheagles said:


> Hi!
> 
> We recently built a new sheep house.  I attached plywood for the walls, with some 1.5" x 3" studs.  Everything was fine for several weeks and then...
> 
> ...


I laughed right out loud, in a sad kind of way, when I read your posts! Our American Black Belly ram has DESTROYED our pole building and metal walk-through doors.  He's knocked metal gates off their hinges and woken us and our neighbors up at all hours of the night.  We installed electric fence lines, at head butting height and put t-posts in front of every gate so he can't get a running start at them - making it more than inconvenient for us to get equipment through the gates.  Sigh.  We had a ram who died of old age and never had a problem like this with him.  The old guy was our first ram, so we weren't sure until we read your (and others') posts that the AB's behavior isn't something all rams do.  I think that little AB is set for a craigslist.org post or the BBQ.  I'm done!   Thanks so much for sharing your post!  It's good to know we're not alone in this!


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## Blue Sky (Jun 24, 2020)

Be careful around that ram. They charge people too. I stopped my battering ram by painting a big face on the wall he hit. 😡


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## FunInTheSun (Jun 24, 2020)

Blue Sky said:


> Be careful around that ram. They charge people too. I stopped my battering ram by painting a big face on the wall he hit. 😡


I don't go into the pasture with him!  As hard as he smashes into the walls, etc., he would most certainly break bones if he decided to charge me.  My husband takes a 6'x2"x2" with him when he goes in the pasture and just holds it in front of him.  The little *%$& will stop just short of smashing the 2x2, but hubby has to be real careful of those horns.  The unfortunate thing is the little guy makes good babies and hubby has gotten a bit attached to the little monster!


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## Blue Sky (Jun 24, 2020)

That’s the trade off. Be careful and take a whacking stick.


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## Mike CHS (Jun 24, 2020)

I think I will stick with Katahdin rams


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## secuono (Jun 24, 2020)

He sounds like a very sexually frustrated boy. 
Rams actually breed each other, which seems to help mellow them out. 
My rams have a loose cycle of light arguing amongst themselves, followed by several days of breeding each other. Then back to indifferent with each other.


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## FunInTheSun (Jun 25, 2020)

Mike CHS said:


> I think I will stick with Katahdin rams


Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Sheepshape (Jun 25, 2020)

Personally I'd just get rid of him if he doesn't 'mellow out'. He'll catch someone off guard and really hurt them.

Another ram (intact or otherwise) should make a friend for him.....but introduction needs to be gradual. They need a fence between them for a few days until they get used to the smell of each other and the introductions are often best done in a barn/shed etc. After a couple of days with a fence between let them out into field (enough room to get away from each other). After a couple of days they usually get to like each other's company and become lifelong friends. They may also be 'friends with benefits'.....the dominant ram mounting the less dominant.....hey, but if it keeps them happy....


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## FunInTheSun (Jun 25, 2020)

Sheepshape said:


> Personally I'd just get rid of him if he doesn't 'mellow out'. He'll catch someone off guard and really hurt them.
> 
> Another ram (intact or otherwise) should make a friend for him.....but introduction needs to be gradual. They need a fence between them for a few days until they get used to the smell of each other and the introductions are often best done in a barn/shed etc. After a couple of days with a fence between let them out into field (enough room to get away from each other). After a couple of days they usually get to like each other's company and become lifelong friends. They may also be 'friends with benefits'.....the dominant ram mounting the less dominant.....hey, but if it keeps them happy....


I'm all for getting rid of him!  Just by chance (not with any type of experience!), we did exactly what you suggested and introduced him to a wether.  But, he continues to head butt everything in sight.  The two of them are OK together in the pasture, but the head butting continues.  After reading the posts here, I now know that not all rams head butt like this, so I'm ready to try a different one.  I really appreciate all the advice!


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## Sheepshape (Jun 25, 2020)

FunInTheSun said:


> I now know that not all rams head butt like this, so I'm ready to try a different one. I really appreciate all the advice!


Most rams don't do a lot of head butting with their pals, though they will have the occasional 'bout'. Maybe your ram has an  aggressive nature
This is more usual with rams who have become accustomed to each other.



The fellow on the right is not yet fully grown, but the two on the left are serious heavyweights. I don't ever see any real aggression from them....either to each other, and certainly not to me.
In this little group the 'adolescent' is the one who does the mounting!


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## FunInTheSun (Jun 25, 2020)

Well, way to go young guy! Ha!  That's the kind of calmness we'd like in our pasture!

I have a question that I hope isn't too silly.  Another post suggested that our AB might be sexually frustrated.  I understand that ABs are year-round breeders, so does that mean a year-round breeder ram needs to be "busy" all year-round?  Or, is the year-round breeder only meaning the ewe is year-round and the rams, regardless of breed, are always ready to go if a ewe is ready?

We prefer to breed only once per year, in the fall, so we can lamb around April or so.  When we get rid of the little monster, I'm wondering whether we need to get a ram from a breed that is just a once-per-year breeder.

Hope all this makes sense!


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## Sheepshape (Jun 25, 2020)

The guys above are seasonal breeders. In August or September they get stinky, their testicles expand and they get more feisty. They are ready and waiting for the girls to come into season.
With all-year-rounders, they are ready to breed any time, and probably would like a steady stream of ewes in season.
The seasonal breeding rams are not known to miss a ewe who happens to come into season early or late, though, so I guess they are always 'ready' just sometimes more ready than others.


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## Blue Sky (Jun 25, 2020)

Might try a goat bell. Could put him off his game.


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