# Bottle jaw



## cariboujaguar (May 29, 2009)

This should be 'emergency or vet' not 'disease'... anyhow

*Age/Sex:* 2 yr old doe

*Breding status:* first freshener as of Mar 22nd this yr (2 bucklings)

*Condition:* decent weight, a little light, heavy milker

*Work load:* Milking a gallon and a half a day

*Feed ration/routine:* free choice pasture browse on 5 acres, free choice local hay, free choice baking soda, free choice water of course, free choice salt, alfalfa pellets/16% grain/14% wet cob/BOSS.

*Last wormed:* April 19th then May 4th with Valbazan

*Meds on hand:* Valbazan, Corrid, Ivermectin, Safeguard, Dectomax, B-complex, (the list goes on)

This is the second time this doe has come down with bottle jaw, she is such a weak animal, noone else has problems like this... last time we treated it with levimasole, redcell, bcomplex and a horse vitamin supplement... (we knew nothing back then) what do you guys suggest?

thanks


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## lilhill (May 29, 2009)

Bottle jaw is usually caused by worms or liver flukes.  You might want to add Vitamin B12 injectiables to your treatment plan.  Continued problems may mean that there's something else going on there and maybe a Vet check would be in order.


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## cariboujaguar (May 29, 2009)

I know all that, I am going to treat her with levamisole... I was asking for any more advice, not a definitian LOL my vet has killed 4 of my goats and cost me thousands, vet visit is a no go.


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## helmstead (May 29, 2009)

If you already knew what to do, why bother to ask?  She was only trying to be helpful.  

Obviously your deworming program isn't getting the liver flukes/barber pole worms OR she has a deficiency somewhere making her more suceptable to infestation.  I would want bloodwork and a fecal, if she were here...so I'd be on the hunt for a new vet.


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## Farmer Kitty (May 29, 2009)

cariboujaguar,

I agree with helmstead. If you know the answer, don't ask the question. lilhill was trying to help. 

Do you recall these words?


> what do you guys suggest?


They are your's.


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## freemotion (May 29, 2009)

If you read the original post, it is clear that cj had been fairly thorough and wanted input above and beyond what was already done.  If it exists.  If not, don't reply.  When her own words were repeated back to her, she was polite about it.  And it seems that there are not any goat vets available (I feel your pain!  In some places they just DON'T exist!).  It is obvious to me that cj was hoping for some further insite......not snippiness.

Be nice, ladies.  Come on.  Sheesh.


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## Farmer Kitty (May 29, 2009)

No, she clearly stated what was done last time, not what she was planning to do this time.


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## freemotion (May 29, 2009)

I am taking exception to the tone.  Lighten up, ladies.  That's all.  She wanted insight, not a  and it was uncalled for.


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## Beekissed (May 29, 2009)

You could try something a little unconventional....like some Basic H from Shaklees, as a drench or in her water bucket.  Salatin tells a story about a cow he had that had liver flukes and did not respond to vetting, traditional de-wormers, etc.  Said she responded within 3 days and did very well.  

I've also heard a 50% unpasteurized ACV/50% water drench can do wonders.  See link:


http://www.sheepmagazine.com/issues/24/24-1/Laurie_Ball-Gisch.html

I know its different species, but its worth a shot when all else fails.  

If it were me, I'd try once more to get her better and, if I did, I would cull this one from the herd.  Parasite resistance is something to shoot for in your herd characteristics if you want to avoid costly treatments in the future.  

Hey, free!  Good to see you!


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## freemotion (May 29, 2009)

Hey, Bee, missed ya here!    Glad you could offer some insight on this.  Thanks for the reminder.  I will be putting some acv into my water tubs every Sunday from now on.  Do you have a recommended ratio in all your research?  I am thinking once a week, then plain water the rest of the week.  

I am also thinking Mya could use a drench, just not sure how to do it....doesn't sound like fun....Drenching a horse means either a naso-gastric tube or a thorough drenching for the handler, mostly!    Will that much acv taint the milk?


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## Beekissed (May 30, 2009)

Free, I think they make a special apparatus for drenches....sort of like a dosing syringe for sheep and goats.  

Here's a link and pic of just such a thing:

http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-...pgoat/sheepgoatdrenchingsyring.html?E+scstore

I do the ACV whenever I think about it but will probably do more once I have made my own supply of UP/ACV.  The store bought is better than nothing but I really want the probiotics affect of the UP vinegar.  

I have found that ACV has made the flavor of my eggs so much better!  I've gotten an increase in compliments on the flavor since I started remembering to put ACV in their water more.  I'll let you know if it tends to come out in the milk, as I put several glorps in Blossom's water each week.  BTW, glorps is the official measuring unit that I use!


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## kstaven (May 30, 2009)

ACV will not flavor the milk at all. What you may notice is an increase in milk volume. That has been very consistant with every dairy animal I have given it to. Likely because it helps balance body PH.


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## reinbeau (May 30, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> If you read the original post, it is clear that cj had been fairly thorough and wanted input above and beyond what was already done.  If it exists.  If not, don't reply.  When her own words were repeated back to her, she was polite about it.  And it seems that there are not any goat vets available (I feel your pain!  In some places they just DON'T exist!).  It is obvious to me that cj was hoping for some further insite......not snippiness.
> 
> Be nice, ladies.  Come on.  Sheesh.


I have to agree. CJ indicated everything that had been done (but did forget to omit the fact that they were going to try levamisole).  Be kind and respectful to each other, it goes a long way to make forum communications go smoothly.


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## Farmer Kitty (May 30, 2009)

It's due to the balancing of PH that ACV works to correct so many illnesses. 

Will it work for liver flukes? I do not know. 

I know for cows there is a separate wormer just for liver flukes and you may need to look into seeing about one for goats. Some areas liver flukes are just at a high concentration and need more treatment than other areas.

IMO, you really won't know, if a treatment worked thoroughly, unless you can find a vet that will run tests for you. Blood and stool samples are pretty basic, maybe you can find a vet that will do that much for you. I can understand not wanting to deal with a bad vet. Been there, done that and forbid him to step foot on the place again.


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## cariboujaguar (May 30, 2009)

Well I know who is chomping at the bit to jump down your throat and I know who's truelly out to help now. 

 I'm deffinately culling her after this is resolved, she can't make it in a herd of 30 is routine care isn't enough I dont' have the time to be watching her so closely, smaller pet herd seems more logical for her.... besides she is obsessed with the LGD's dog food and they have to chase her out of it, she won't stop going after it, they won't eat outside of the pen! UGH! I wouldn't mind saying bye bye to this gal LOL

Thanks to those who had an open mind and weren't negative/jumpng to conclusions. The rest of you can kindly refrain from replying to my posts from now on, I meant no offense and I really don't like cat fights, I'm not that kind of woman


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## helmstead (May 30, 2009)

Touche...


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 9, 2009)

All that said and I am way behind everyone else...  You didn't tell us what breed she is.  That is kind of important, cause what might work for a Nubian might not work for a Boer or even a Kiko or an Alpine.  I would suggest Cydectin (quest) for worming.  I really want to know what kind of goat is putting out a gallon and a half a day... I just want one thats all just one...

Chris


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## bheila (Jun 9, 2009)

I think caribou's on a roadtrip right now so you might not hear back from her for a while. I thought she was going down south to get more goats


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## KareyABohr (Jun 12, 2009)

I was VERY interested in this topic, but to be quite honest, it is going a little over my head.
I have a nanny goat that just never quite seemed to keep up with my other nannys. I wormed two weeks ago with cydectin and she has come down with that fluid filled face too and scours. I treated the scours and now I would LOVE to know what products exactly you think I should use to treat her. 
BTW she is the only goat out of 60 that has this problem.


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## KareyABohr (Jun 12, 2009)

I just went online and checked out pics of "bottle jaw" and my nanny does not have a hard lump. She actually has a smooshy fluid filled lower jaw and neck. Kind of like she has a double chin.

Any ideas?


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## jojo@rolling acres farm (Jun 12, 2009)

I have goats - but no experience with this type of thing.  I wonder, does she have an issue with her teeth? Do you have a vet in your area that sees/treats goats?


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## helmstead (Jun 12, 2009)

KareyABohr said:
			
		

> I just went online and checked out pics of "bottle jaw" and my nanny does not have a hard lump. She actually has a smooshy fluid filled lower jaw and neck. Kind of like she has a double chin.
> 
> Any ideas?


Yes it's bottle jaw.  You need to deworm with 4 different classes of wormers, 10 days apart.  Also treat with B Complex and Red Cell.


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## KareyABohr (Jun 12, 2009)

What brands specifically do you suggest, and should I use the cydectin again?

Thank you for all the good info!


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## username taken (Jun 13, 2009)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> All that said and I am way behind everyone else...  You didn't tell us what breed she is.  That is kind of important, cause what might work for a Nubian might not work for a Boer or even a Kiko or an Alpine.  I would suggest Cydectin (quest) for worming.  I really want to know what kind of goat is putting out a gallon and a half a day... I just want one thats all just one...
> 
> Chris


Really top producing Swiss breeds will do that easy ... there is a brilliant breeder of Saanens here in Aus, her FF yield 6L (1.59 gallons) on the first lactation and the second and subsequent lactation they yield 8L (2.11 gallons)


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 16, 2009)

I am still behind!  I just lost a Jacob to what I think was Barber pole worms.  I am now going to try the Cydectin labled for sheep(oral drench) and give it to the goats and sheep (ordered from Jeffers).  The lambs will be spotted with the pour on cattle Cydectin and given the oral drench.  I am not sure if we will give the milkers the pour on spot or not.  All the kids will get the oral drench.  I also changed feed to a medicated sheep and goat feed to fight coccidiosis (several of our milkers have had scours).  We are way to wet here this year.  Rain is 4" above normal for our area and the worms and tics are having a feast!  We have treated with oxytetracyline for scours, but it only works for short periods.  Also look up the FAMACHA worming technique and find the color chart for the lower eyelids.  That might shock you!  We are going to base our treatments on the Famacha method from now on and give up the microscope except for extreme cases.  I did a real laymans necropsy on our lamb and she had almost no blood.  I believe that she died because she got scared by barking dogs and her heart started beating to fast for the amount of blood she had in her system.  Worms are bad!

Chris


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## currycomb (Jun 26, 2009)

read somewhere to ivermectinPLUS, the plus is what gets the tough worm, liver-fluke i think is what was posted. haven't had to do that yet. prior to this episode, how long had it been since you last dewormed this particular goat? i am lucky and have 2 goat vets in our town, and have helped us a bunch with our nubian herd. do know several people that tried boer goats got out because there was no natural immunity to our worms. we found giving cydectin and ivermectin was like giving water, had to go back to the old cow wormer levasole. dont know what to do when that stops working. good luck. also get her vitamin shots, iron because she is anemic, and general vitamins as well


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