# LGDs...Help Please!



## FlightsofFancy (Jun 25, 2009)

I am moving waaaaay out onto acreage and think I need to get an LGD. Coyotes are my big concern. I have gone to the LGD site, read all about the dogs, but just can't seem to pick a breed. Then I keep hearing all the horror stories about LGDs gone bad. I have been a dog trainer for over 25 years, but this is out of my expertise.
The LGD would be housed with the goats, but I have chickens, house dogs and lots of doggie visitors. Any sugesstions?


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## okiron (Jun 25, 2009)

Great Pyrenees will be the most popular suggestion me thinks. I plan on getting 2 (at separate times) myself when I get my livestock.


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## Roll farms (Jun 25, 2009)

Try for a shorter-coated cross (pyr x anatolian) or breed (Meremma, etc.)  My pyrs get matted and miserable.  Some just won't blow a coat like they're supposed to.  In GA they'll really be hot.
There are no bad dogs....you know the drill.
I didn't know spit when I got mine and have 3 who work well.  
I just hate the coat mess every year, so we shave our male down.  The female doesn't mat and blows hers like she's supposed to.
The Anatolian doesn't mat at all but I don't like his attitude as well as the pyrs.


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## username taken (Jun 25, 2009)

I dont have guardians - at the moment I dont need them - but if I ever do end up on a property where I need them again - it wont be a dog. 

I will have a llama or alpaca or donkey but never again a dog. 

Yes, I've had very well trained ones that did a good job. 

But I have seen first hand what can happen when the dog remembers that he is a carnivore, and a predator. 

Its not such a huge step for the dog to remember. One day they are cleaning up placenta, and kid goop. The next they are seeing a nice wet bloody umbilical. Give it a little nibble, mmm, thats tasty. Your kidding percentages start going down and you are not sure why ... 

I just can never trust a dog 100%, after all, nature tells him he is a predator, and nature tells him that goats are a prey animal. Simple as that


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## lilhill (Jun 25, 2009)

I have seen donkeys, alpacas, horses and LGDs all have problems with goats, and I have friends who have at least one of them with their goats who have had no problems whatsoever.  It depends on the temperament and training.  We had a young year old Great Pyr/Anatolian that was raised with goats that went into prey mode big time and was rehomed.  We now have a Great Pyr that is wonderful with keeping her charges safe.  Just because the animal was "raised with goats" does not insure they will not hurt them.


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## FlightsofFancy (Jun 25, 2009)

Great advice....I am a groomer so keeping them groomed is not a problem. 
Lilhill......the GP seem to be SO laid back. I groom a ton of these every summer (all working LGDs) and just don't see them going after a preditor. However, they seem to have the best temperment. I would love to hear about your personal experiences? 
Also is it better to get a pair?


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## gaited horse (Jun 25, 2009)

anatolians make really good dogs


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## lilhill (Jun 25, 2009)

FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> Great advice....I am a groomer so keeping them groomed is not a problem.
> Lilhill......the GP seem to be SO laid back. I groom a ton of these every summer (all working LGDs) and just don't see them going after a preditor. However, they seem to have the best temperment. I would love to hear about your personal experiences?
> Also is it better to get a pair?


At present I only have one, a female.  Daisy won't even allow a bird to land in the pasture with her goats or our neighbor's cows to get close to the fenceline.  She charges them like a bull and chases them back, and then lays between them and the goats to make sure they don't come too close for her comfort again.  We have a man who comes by with a mule drawn wagon.  When Daisy sees him, she herds the goats up to the barn, and then stands between them and the wagon until they are out of sight.  Same with any loud mufflered vehicle on the road.  When the coyotes are howling, Daisy works the fence perimeter barking, telling them she's there and will do it until they stop howling, no matter how long it takes.  She's a great partner in providing protection.  She's a big baby when she's not "working".


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## FlightsofFancy (Jun 25, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> At present I only have one, a female.  Daisy won't even allow a bird to land in the pasture with her goats or our neighbor's cows to get close to the fenceline.  She charges them like a bull and chases them back, and then lays between them and the goats to make sure they don't come too close for her comfort again.  We have a man who comes by with a mule drawn wagon.  When Daisy sees him, she herds the goats up to the barn, and then stands between them and the wagon until they are out of sight.  Same with any loud mufflered vehicle on the road.  When the coyotes are howling, Daisy works the fence perimeter barking, telling them she's there and will do it until they stop howling, no matter how long it takes.  She's a great partner in providing protection.  She's a big baby when she's not "working".


NOW THAT"S WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!!   I would love to get a dog like that!
Did you get her from a breeder?


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jun 25, 2009)

i've been researching as well. our next dog will be an Anatolian. from what i can tell the GP's have great temperaments - but can be a little too lovey-dovey-attention-needing when not working. the Anatolian breeder i visited had the most laid back dog i've ever seen and used her size more than anything when i handling the puppies. however one goat herd owner i met didnt use Anatolians anymore b/c his kept going after the barn cats. so some of it depends on the individuals, of course.


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## lilhill (Jun 25, 2009)

Actually, I lucked up on her from a guy that lives about half a mile from me.   She was 13 months old when I bought her for $40 and we've had her 3 years.


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## lilhill (Jun 25, 2009)

There again it depends on the dog.  I was told when I was looking DO NOT let the dog bond with you, only with the goats.  WRONG!!!  That was the GP/Anatolian, and the one that started attacking the goats.  Neither I nor my dh could get near him for any reason.  My Vet advised us to get rid of him before he does more damage.  With Daisy, she's bonded with the goats, but we can handle her and do what needs to be done and she's very happy whenever she gets affection from us.  Now, she knows one of our friends very well and he's petted her often when he stops by, BUT she will not allow him in the gate where the goats are unless me or my hubby are with him.  Jimmy told us about that when he came by one day and we weren't home.  You want a dog you can control, no matter what their job is, and also knows that they are on duty 24/7.


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## helmstead (Jun 25, 2009)

For some reason I'm thinking Wanda Clark can help you find LGDs locally...


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 26, 2009)

We got a GP yesterday (traded 3 Nigerians for her).  This was a good post to read.  Although I had already decided that we would bond with the dog first and teach her to work second.  We have 6 other dogs that she will on occasion have to interact with and we won't tolerate aggression to other members of the family.  Well, 'cept for the chickens.  I hate to say it, but if a chicken gets in with the dogs then the chicken is culled naturally.  I might not be so matter-of-fact about it if the dogs ever got one of my Delawares though.  

Chris


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## lilhill (Jun 26, 2009)

Our chicken pen is right next to the goat pens, and my GP guards them, too.    At first she thought they were just any other bird and she would growl at them and keep them away from the fenceline.  Now she realizes they are also her charges, or she thinks they are.  We have a mini poodle that we never allow to interact with Daisy because we don't want the GP to decide all dogs are okay.


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## FlightsofFancy (Jun 26, 2009)

So my thought is I get a puppy. Let it interact with our new barn kitties, my house dogs(who are never allowed with the goats, but I don't want a barkfest everytime we let them outside) and my children. Do light obedience training and then just watch her in the field with the goats. Encourage the behavior I like and discourage the behavior I don't. 
I have a personal protection dog and she knows who is OK and who is not, but this is all trained behavior and only bites on command.(although if I was in a "situation" I have no doubt she would act instinctively) I am hoping that this LGD can be taught some of the same behaviors with out interrupting her natural instinct to protect her herd.
Seems a very fine line to walk.....not too much cuddling but just enough to make her managable.


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## lilhill (Jun 26, 2009)

Sounds like a plan to me.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 27, 2009)

FlightsofFancy said:
			
		

> So my thought is I get a puppy. Let it interact with our new barn kitties, my house dogs(who are never allowed with the goats, but I don't want a barkfest everytime we let them outside) and my children. Do light obedience training and then just watch her in the field with the goats. Encourage the behavior I like and discourage the behavior I don't.
> I have a personal protection dog and she knows who is OK and who is not, but this is all trained behavior and only bites on command.(although if I was in a "situation" I have no doubt she would act instinctively) I am hoping that this LGD can be taught some of the same behaviors with out interrupting her natural instinct to protect her herd.
> Seems a very fine line to walk.....not too much cuddling but just enough to make her managable.


That sounds just like our plan.  We are slowly going to legthen her time with the goats, until she is spending 90% of her time in the goat enclosure. After having only 3 days she is doing real well with the other dogs and the goats (including 4 kids ranging from 1 to 4 weeks old).  I have always shied away from purebread dogs and now we have 2 of 7 that are purebread.  I must be loosing my mind.

Chris

Chris


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## Chirpy (Jun 27, 2009)

Lots of great advice given.  I just thought I'd toss out my personal experience.   We don't have a LGD per say... we have (had) two German Shepherds who have been 100% the best dogs.  They are generally outside dogs with 24/7 free run of our 40 acres.  Since the day (over 7 years ago) that we started letting them run 24/7 we have never lost a farm animal (cats included) to any predator.  Before they had free run at night we were losing cats right and left.  We have tons of coyotes and fox, weasels, raccoons, skunks and even other dogs that we see regularly but they don't dare set foot anyplace on our property.

I agree that it's not always the breed that makes the best dog for a given purpose but the personality and training of the individual dog being used.  One of the things I love about our Shepherds is that my children are never outside alone... the dog(s) love them and are always right there with them but still keeping a close eye on everything else too.

Our neighbors have a huge Alpaca farm (over 80 animals) and have used Great Pyrs but were also frustrated with the matted hair.   They got an Akbash about three years ago... for the first year and a half (the puppy stage) they were ready to strangle her.  Now, they love her... she's doing a fantastic job of guarding but also loves people which is absolutely necessary for them as they have visitors almost daily to their place.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jun 29, 2009)

a good lesson:

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2455201#p2455201


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## FlightsofFancy (Jun 29, 2009)

ohiofarmgirl said:
			
		

> a good lesson:
> 
> http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=2455201#p2455201


YES! That is one of the posts that encouraged me to start this thread. I do not house my chickens ands goats together, but that doesn't mean a hen wouldn't go over a fence. It's very sad to hear about all the "bad" experiences with LGDs. Another story I heard was that the LGD got out of the pen and killed all the house dogs....EEEK! Can you imagine? 
I am definitly not going into this with rose colored glasses.


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