# In the real world news today Thurs, November 29 2018



## greybeard

*NO POLITICS!*
I will, but probably not daily, post interesting news stories here. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-carjacker-steals-car-kids-inside/760671002/

_
A woman pulled a gun from her glove compartment and shot a carjacker in the head as he drove away in her SUV with her and her two toddlers inside in North Texas.

The incident took place late Wednesday night at a Dallas-area Shell Station, police said, when the suspect, identified as 36-year-old Rickey Wright, approached the vehicle. The mother, Michelle Booker-Hicks, was out of the car paying for gas while her 2- and 4-year old sons sat in the vehicle's back seats, Dallas' Fox 4 reported.

Before she returned from the store, the mother saw a man enter her vehicle and attempt to flee, per CBS 11. But before he drove away, the mother jumped into the back of the car herself.

Booker-Hicks told the man to stop, she told Fox 4, before reaching over to the vehicle's glove compartment and retrieving the gun inside. She fired a single shot to his face, she said. 

“I’m not a killer, but I do believe in defending what’s mine,” she told Fox 4. “I hope that woke him up.”_

Yep, I reckon he is woke now.
DMWT


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## promiseacres

what I don't get is  that he was only charged with unlawful restraint and unauthorized use of motor vehicle. WHAT ABOUT ATTEMPTED KIDNAPPING???


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## greybeard

Primarily, because unlawful restraint is easier to prove in court. 
Remember too, that in Texas (and I presume some other states) the State of Texas recognizes your vehicle to be part and parcel to your 'castle".
If you or your kids are abducted FROM your home (or vehicle) only then is it kidnapping. If they forcefully confine you within your home or vehicle, (or a place of business or your job)  then it is unlawful restraint.


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## promiseacres

A good reason in any case to keep the gun on your person. Thankful she was able to save her kids.


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## Pastor Dave

Sounds like this could have went way different. I agree. Keep arms on person.


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## greybeard

Pastor Dave said:


> Sounds like this could have went way different. I agree. Keep arms on person.



It very well could have Dave, and I am glad she had the intuitive thought process to jump in the car. Too often I hear, or read of people who attempt to thwart this kind of thing by standing in FRONT of the vehicle...never a good idea.

It is possible, she had no concealed carry permit and therefore didn't have a weapon on her person. Most convenient stores around here have a sign on the door saying it is illegal to enter the store armed, as they usually sell alcohol and it is illegal to have a weapon in any place that does sell booze.

I never, leave my keys in the ignition when entering any place of business, and especially at the gas pumps. It's pretty common to have 'people' hanging around convenient stores and they do often steal vehicles exactly that way.


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## Pastor Dave

Indiana carrying permit/personal protection permit allows you to open carry or concealed. Post offices, schools, and other federal institutions are the only definitive off limit areas for firearms. Of course a lot of businesses lately including hospitals have their warnings up of no firearms on premises. If found to have one at those locations, one would be asked to leave and would be subject to trespassing.

 If one has no permit, to carry legally between abodes, firearm has to be unloaded and if ammunition is present, stored in a separate area of tbe car. 

Restrictions are getting a little ridiculous for the legally armed citizen. Even as a pastor, I carry a majority of the time. Probably my law enforcement background. I want to be able to protect my family or innocents around me in public as this world keeps getting crazier. We have even tightened entrance to the church, have sentinels at main entrances that conceal carry, and those on the rotation often conceal carry in the Sanctuary when not assigned to post. Trying to be proactive rather than reactive.


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## RollingAcres

Pastor Dave said:


> Restrictions are getting a little ridiculous for the legally armed citizen. Even as a pastor, I carry a majority of the time. Probably my law enforcement background. I want to be able to protect my family or innocents around me in public as this world keeps getting crazier. We have even tightened entrance to the church, have sentinels at main entrances that conceal carry, and those on the rotation often conceal carry in the Sanctuary when not assigned to post. Trying to be proactive rather than reactive.


Agree! The ones who want to break the law will find ways no matter how tough the restrictions  are. The restrictions just make it tougher for law abiding citizens to protect themselves and their families.


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## OneFineAcre

greybeard said:


> *NO POLITICS!*
> I will, but probably not daily, post interesting news stories here.
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-carjacker-steals-car-kids-inside/760671002/
> 
> _
> A woman pulled a gun from her glove compartment and shot a carjacker in the head as he drove away in her SUV with her and her two toddlers inside in North Texas.
> 
> The incident took place late Wednesday night at a Dallas-area Shell Station, police said, when the suspect, identified as 36-year-old Rickey Wright, approached the vehicle. The mother, Michelle Booker-Hicks, was out of the car paying for gas while her 2- and 4-year old sons sat in the vehicle's back seats, Dallas' Fox 4 reported.
> 
> Before she returned from the store, the mother saw a man enter her vehicle and attempt to flee, per CBS 11. But before he drove away, the mother jumped into the back of the car herself.
> 
> Booker-Hicks told the man to stop, she told Fox 4, before reaching over to the vehicle's glove compartment and retrieving the gun inside. She fired a single shot to his face, she said.
> 
> “I’m not a killer, but I do believe in defending what’s mine,” she told Fox 4. “I hope that woke him up.”_
> 
> Yep, I reckon he is woke now.
> DMWT



Ricky Wright played a stupid game and got a stupid prize.


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## Bruce

She was FORCED to shoot him in the head? I think it would be more correct to say she chose to shoot him in the head. I wonder how fast the car was going when she shot him. Could have been ugly if he involuntarily stomped the gas and ran the car out into traffic when he was shot.


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## OneFineAcre

Bruce said:


> She was FORCED to shoot him in the head? I think it would be more correct to say she chose to shoot him in the head. I wonder how fast the car was going when she shot him. Could have been ugly if he involuntarily stomped the gas and ran the car out into traffic when he was shot.


I would have made the same choice she did
And I would have chose to pop.about 3 or 4 rounds when I did
And he and Jesus or Allah or whoever the f..k he believes in would be sorting out the bad choices he made


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## Goat Whisperer

Bruce said:


> She was FORCED to shoot him in the head? I think it would be more correct to say she chose to shoot him in the head. I wonder how fast the car was going when she shot him. Could have been ugly if he involuntarily stomped the gas and ran the car out into traffic when he was shot.


He forced her to make the decision she chose

I saw this a few days ago. Good for her.


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## OneFineAcre

She only shot him once
That was her only mistake 
She should have shot him with ever how many rounds her gun had


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## greybeard

Hindsight is 20/20 but you only do what is needed to eliminate, mitigate or diffuse the threat. 

Other than leaving her kids in a car with keys in the ignition, she reacted as I probably would have.


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## OneFineAcre

You only do what is needed to mitigate the threat ?
I agree 100 percent.
The way you do that is to fire every round you have at the threat
.My CCW holds 10.rounds
You are getting all of them
If I have to shoot you once I'm going to shoot you 10 times


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## greybeard

OneFineAcre said:


> You only do what is needed to mitigate the threat ?
> I agree 100 percent.
> The way you do that is to fire every round you have at the threat
> .My CCW holds 10.rounds
> You are getting all of them
> If I have to shoot you once I'm going to shoot you 10 times


I don't 'disagree' with that at all, but I'm also remembering the pharmacist from a few years back, that shot a robber, then turned to pursue another out the door, returned inside and found the 1st guy still moving and emptied his pistol into the guy. Pharmacist is now serving a prison sentence for homicide.



> An emotional jury Thursday decided pharmacist Jerome Jay Ersland was guilty of first-degree murder for fatally shooting a masked robber two years ago inside an Oklahoma City drugstore.
> 
> Jurors chose life in prison as punishment.
> 
> Two female co-workers at Reliable Discount Pharmacy told jurors Ersland was a hero who saved their lives on May 19, 2009. But prosecutors called him an executioner who shot a wounded, unarmed robber five more times after the robber fell to the floor unconscious and was no longer a threat.
> 
> The eight women and four men were solemn as they filed back into an Oklahoma County courtroom after wrapping up deliberations in three hours and thirty minutes. Some had tears in their eyes. Each answered, “Yes,” in a quiet voice when the judge asked them one at a time if that was the verdict.



Of course, there's also the old "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" philosophy..


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## Soon2Be

"The gentleman" ... 
I don't think I would be quoted as saying that, if it happened to me.


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## Bruce

I feel sorry for the pharmacist. No leniency for "heat of the moment" and adrenalin? I bet the whole thing didn't take 2 minutes. No time for thinking "is that guy I shot who is moving down for the count?"


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## greybeard

How aggressive the DA is, how good the defense attorney is, how the presiding judge directs the courtroom, and of course, the make up of the jury all play a big part.


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## greybeard

Moving on.......
We would be remiss if we didn't pay some attention to the Thai boys soccer team that has been trapped in a flooded cave in that country along with their adult coach  for 16 days.
News says that 4 boys have now been brought out by an international team of divers but rescue attempts have temporarily been suspended for the night while air tanks are being refilled. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Internationa...removing-boys-cave-thailand/story?id=56435582


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## Southern by choice

One of the divers died rescuing some of the kids. I believe he ran out of oxygen.


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## OneFineAcre

I haven't been following the story very closely
How did they get stuck in the cave ?


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## greybeard

Long story. It was a recreational outing and the cave, a popular tourist attraction is not the usual type we see here in the US. Evidently, the mountain where the cave goes into is alluvial and permits rainwater to filter in thru the overburden  soil and rock. It's monsoon season there and rain farther up the mountain range  caused portions of the cave to flood, trapping the soccer team.


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## Bruce

Southern by choice said:


> One of the divers died rescuing some of the kids. I believe he ran out of oxygen.


Not precisely. He died while moving tanks into staging areas. This was a couple of days ago, they just brought out the first 4 today. Not sure how he ran out of air in his tank, being a trained and seasoned diver. But from the sounds of it, that is what happened. I used to dive some, eons ago. Tanks have gauges on hoses thought he might have had a tough time seeing it in the murky water but they also have a reserve air valve. Sad no matter how it happened.


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## greybeard

4 more are out. 4 boys and the coach left.
My hat is off to those divers. I don't want to sound crude, but My thought is they must have gonads the size of beach balls.
My hat is off to them...........I couldn't do it and I've always considered myself pretty tough.


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## OneFineAcre

greybeard said:


> 4 more are out. 2 boys and the coach left.
> My hat is off to those divers. I don't want to sound crude, but My thought is they must have gonads the size of beach balls.
> My hat is off to them...........I couldn't do it and I've always considered myself pretty tough.



Aren't they like Thailand's version of the Navy Seals ?


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## greybeard

OneFineAcre said:


> Aren't they like Thailand's version of the Navy Seals ?


Some ARE Thai Navy Seals..others are from other nations..US, GB, Australia, other Asian nations..it is an international operation. 

I was unaware until today, that most children in Thailand don't know how to swim..less than 20%. There is lots of water in Thailand, but mothers have long believed that knowing how to swim simply puts their children at a higher risk...believing they would be more apt to enter dangerous water. Seems counter-intuitive to us, but that's the way it is there.


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## Bruce

All boys and the coach are out as of ~7:50 AM EDT.


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## greybeard

Yep. 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/09/asia/thai-cave-rescue-mission-intl/index.html


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## OneFineAcre

That's great that they all got out.
Very sad that one of the rescuers died.


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## Pastor Dave

greybeard said:


> Of course, there's also the old "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" philosophy..



First thing I learned in Law Enforcement program at Vincennes University 25 yrs ago.


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## greybeard

In the news today, (July 15) It's National Ice Cream Day, which means (among other things) that some retail establishments are giving away or making great discount (buy 1 get 1 free etc) deals on ice cream.
http://fortune.com/2018/07/15/national-ice-cream-day-2018-deals-discounts/

PetSmart even has one for doggie ice cream in the folowing list.
http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2...day-where-to-score-free-scoop-on-july-15.html



> At Pet Smart, yes, Pet Smart, your dog can get a doggie ice cream at locations that have a Pets Hotel on both Saturday and Sunday, July 14 and 15.



Unlike previous years, many now require you give up a little more privacy, see a few more ads on your phone and make you download the ever-present 'app' to get the free or discounted item. Ever sneaky they are, and some more so than others.

For Texans: You 'could' have gotten $3 off HEB brand creamy creations, but you had to grab the cupon before midnight this morning.
https://www.facebook.com/HEB/photos/turns-out-today-is-national/10151032727187439/

when you follow the link to get the coupon, as I just did, here's what you see:


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## Bruce

Sure, post the link for the $3 off AFTER you snagged them all! 
You are making me wish we had HEB stores here.


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## greybeard

In The News Today, July 20..
People are getting sick, (salmonella) from handling and EATING raw turkey......



> Of 61 people interviewed, 37 reported preparing or eating turkey products that were purchased raw, including ground turkey, turkey pieces and whole turkey before they began experiencing symptoms, according to the CDC.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/19/health/salmonella-outbreak-raw-turkey-bn/index.html

I don't like hearing about anyone getting sick but.....who are these people that would eat raw poultry? On second thought, I do not want to know........


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## Bruce

Cheap sushi? 
Yeah, I'm not into raw poultry. Not into raw fish either.


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## Latestarter

I'll second that Bruce...


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## mystang89

I can do the sushi thing but who in their right mind would eat raw chicken. That's about as smart as eating raw hamburgers.


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## RollingAcres

No thanks on raw meat or fish. I eat medium rare steak but that's just about as rare as I can get.


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## Latestarter

Hey... what's wrong with eating raw steak? (or ground into hamburger)? I've found it's a very good way to determine the quality of the hamburger. A little salt and YUM! No raw poultry, pork, or fish for me though...


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## greybeard

Latestarter said:


> Hey... what's wrong with eating raw steak? (or ground into hamburger)?


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## RollingAcres




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## Bruce

greybeard said:


> View attachment 50495


Yeah, but besides that!


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## Latestarter

I've been eating raw hamburger since I was a knee high lad standing at mom's side watching her to learn how to cook. Give or take 50 years or so. I started cooking before I was 10 yrs old... Cooked my first entire thanksgiving meal with all the trimmings at ~13. Mom was sick and nobody else to do it. Mom always took a small sample, sprinkled a little salt and tossed it into her mouth. I've done the same, basically all my life. Never had anything bad happen from it that I'm aware of. Yes, there's always a first time, but that can be said about getting run over while walking across a street... I have gotten food poisoning from eating at restaurants, but never from my own kitchen/food/cooking. Don't really see how the danger is all that much greater compared to eating rare cooked beef, or even medium rare that's red in the center. Or eating sushi...


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## goatgurl

don't you think that if someone doesn't have any more sense than eat raw turkey or chicken they should sort of expect a little salmonella or e-coli. I realize the same could be said for raw beef but like @Latestarter I have eaten raw beef for the better part of 60 years am still kickin', I want my steak to beller when i stick a fork in it but in that same 60 years I have never snacked on raw chicken or turkey.  makes my mouth sweat just thinking about it.  sushi, yup I can do that and smile.


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## greybeard

Latestarter said:


> Yes, there's always a first time, but that can be said about getting run over while walking across a street...



I'm betting tho, that you don't just close your eyes and walk off that curb figuring the cars and trucks will all stop...


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## mystang89

I don't know about anyone else but I can say that, back when I was much younger, I are very undercooked (read barely warm) hamburger meat. I don't the next hour in the latrine with my bowels confused about what came out of which end.  Everyone who eats raw meat has stomachs of steal. This stomach learned it's lesson lol. Charcoal for me please! Lol


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## greybeard

dysentery, sitting on the toilet while 'stuff' comes out both ends,  is definite not fun, especially when it lasts very long at all.


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## Mini Horses

Grandad & I ate raw ground beef & onion sandwiches.  And I still taste raw ground … like my steaks, on the rare side... but, NO raw poultry.  BAD taste.  NO fish.  I don't like it cooked, so never raw.  Pork needs to be well cooked.   I run the chance on the beef  but, I've never had a problem.  Clean handling helps.

So, I drink my goat milk raw, also.   Eggs MUST be cooked dry, I hate the loose yolk, etc.  Scramble or squish and fry hard.


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## Bruce

Mini Horses said:


> Pork needs to be well cooked.


Your taste? Used to be you could get trichinosis from commercial pork so it had to be cooked well done. But that is a thing of the past and medium, even a bit medium rare is OK.



Latestarter said:


> Never had anything bad happen from it that I'm aware of.


We'll just blame whatever health issues you have now on eating a bit of raw ground beef for 50 years


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## Latestarter

Yeah, the trichinosis threat has pretty well been eliminated and pork at medium vice cooked to the consistency/taste/texture of a piece of wood, is sooooooo much better. I like taking a thinner pork chop, frozen, and broiling it with a little season salt on it then picking it up and eating it right off the bone medium-medium rare.   I really like all my "red" meats cooked medium or less depending on animal. (I consider pork a red meat). White meats need to be fully cooked; poultry, seafood, shellfish...


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## Bruce

Latestarter said:


> (I consider pork a red meat)


Don't tell the pork lobby! They have spent decades trying to convince us it is a white meat!!


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> Your taste? Used to be you could get trichinosis from commercial pork so it had to be cooked well done. But that is a thing of the past and medium, even a bit medium rare is OK.



Even recently, until I interceded and explained that to wifey, she insisted pork be cooked until it was dry and tasteless and we had to have apples or applesauce anytime she cooked pork. Applesauce was reputed to kill worms that might be in pork.
There are fewer than 20 cases of trichinosis reported in the US each year.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> We'll just blame whatever health issues you have now on eating a bit of raw ground beef for 50 years


What ya thinking Bruce...he should tell the VA on his next visit that a good pour-on plus a dose of ivomec administered via both ends would fix him right up?


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## Mini Horses

Pork...my taste.  Don't want it dry but, no pink in center.  I use thick cut chops, so dry hasn't been an issue.  Thankfully.  Plus, my have been from home grown piggies….not white meat. 

Seems odd since I can eat almost raw beef


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## mystang89

I was talking to a friend at church today and he was telling me that the USDA recently changed the coming recommendations for coming pork. It was 175f(I believe, maybe 165f) and they changed it to 145f. Still cooked though.


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## goatgurl

until I got married and started cooking on my own I had no idea that a pork chops didn't have to have the texture of boot leather.  I have a hard time not over cooking the muscovie duck breast.  don't care that it looks like beef steak my mind knows that its poultry and don't want it rare.  and I agree with you @Mini Horses, not sure why raw beef is fine with me but raw pork or poultry is a no go.


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## Bruce

greybeard said:


> Even recently, until I interceded and explained that to wifey, she insisted pork be cooked until it was dry and tasteless and we had to have apples or applesauce anytime she cooked pork. Applesauce was reputed to kill worms that might be in pork.


That is my wife as well. And she has to have sauerkraut with it. 
Applesauce kills worms  Musta been a lot of pork with no worms to get that believed.


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## greybeard

In the real world news today, July 25...
*Over 200 salmonella infections linked to backyard chickens, CDC warns*
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...linked-backyard-chickens-cdc-warns/832091002/

Just over 1/4th of the reported cases were children that had come in direct contact with the birds or their habitats prior to showing symptoms, meaning about 75% were adults or teens.
I believe this was in a lot of states cumulatively (40+ states IIRC) , not centered in one area and was over a time span of 4 months.



> Proponents of backyard chickens remind critics and those concerned about illnesses that the problem is easily handled with handwashing and proper hygiene, and they say the number of people who own backyard chickens makes the number of those who have gotten sick an unimportant statistic.*
> 
> One Facebook group for backyard chicken owners has more than 25,000 members.
> Another online forum, Backyard Chickens, has more than 360,000 members. Estimates of the number of backyard chicken owners are as high as 1 million in the U.S.



*What a silly thing to say. 
Oh, I'm sure it is 'unimportant', right up till the point YOU or your kid becomes one of those 'unimportant' statistics.


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## Latestarter

Never a good thing to be a statistic... That being said, statistically, that number of infections is the equivalent of zero... 200/1000000=.0002 or .02% chance of infection. I would wager a guess that there are substantially more than 1 million households with backyard chickens as well. I would guess better than 10 times that number, which would make the chances correspondingly low at .002% 

Sorry, but CDC or not, it really is a non-issue. It really is a very unimportant statistic. People get sick from lots of things.


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## Bruce

Out of curiosity, is there a way to test your LIVE birds for salmonella?


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## greybeard

Latestarter said:


> Never a good thing to be a statistic... That being said, statistically, that number of infections is the equivalent of zero... 200/1000000=.0002 or .02% chance of infection. I would wager a guess that there are substantially more than 1 million households with backyard chickens as well. I would guess better than 10 times that number, which would make the chances correspondingly low at .002%
> 
> Sorry, but CDC or not, it really is a non-issue. It really is a very unimportant statistic. People get sick from lots of things.


It's always easy to rationalize or minimize any risk as long as it is someone else's ox being gored. 

I can just imagine what would befall me if I were to walk into a hospital room of a child being treated for salmonella and tell the parents they & their child were a meaningless statistic. I better be ready to have my old butt drug outside by the father to see what I was really made of.

I saw the same kind of comments made by more than a few cattlemen when the mad cow thing originally came up. They changed their tune quickly when FDA/USDA/FSIS imposed serious regulations and instructions on that sector even tho today, out of about 350million US population, only 5 cases have been reported and only 231 in a global population of 7.6 billion.

FDA and USDA does look to the CDC for guidance re restrictions and regulations, and one of the things all 3 look at is the attitude of producers. Blowing this off indifferently is not going to go far in prevention of regulating the home egg business.


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## greybeard

The map:
https://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/backyard-flocks-06-18/map.html


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## OneFineAcre

Back to the meats, I like ahi grade tuna seared medium rare.  Steak medium rare, pork chops medium.
I love raw oysters.


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## frustratedearthmother

OneFineAcre said:


> I love raw oysters.



OMG!    I'd eat a dozen of 'em right now if I could...


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## mystang89

My dad loves them. I can handle them. My wife throws then up lol


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## Latestarter

Not rationalizing or minimizing anything in the least. Just being realistic. If you want to quote statistics, then you have to do so statistically and statistically, that percentage is zero. As I said, sucks to be a statistic and I don't wish that on anyone or anyone's kids. I would never go in to an ER and tell some parent that their kid can die because statistically, they don't matter.  I mean, where did that even come from?  No matter what you do or espouse to do, you will NEVER achieve zero (true zero) risk in life. Just aint gonna happen. You can minimize and mitigate, but not eliminate. Risk is a factor in all of life. 

Over regulation and further government expansion/meddling/regulation is NOT the answer either. There are too many laws and restrictions/regulations on EVERYTHING right now. We are no longer a free society in any stretch of the imagination. 

I think based on statistics and sheer numbers, all moving automotive vehicles should be banned and done away with based on the number of highway deaths caused by/in vehicles. Lets ban cigarettes and liquor as well. There are so many other statistically deadly things we should regulate further or eliminate. You yourself brought up the mad cow issue.

Education is the key and helping folks who are doing things wrong/improperly to "fix" those issues. Identify the problem and FIX it, not regulate it.


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## goatgurl

good point @Latestarter.


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## Mini Horses

Looking at the map on the site referenced, it shows NC to be the top state for such infections reported (a total of 27).  I would like to mention that they also have a  HUGE number of large chicken producers --  even tho this report says "backyard flocks".   I believe we had that many people shot around here in the past month.....even though we had zero backyard chicken salmonella cases.     Maybe they could work on reducing that?


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## greybeard

Latestarter said:


> I would never go in to an ER and tell some parent that their kid can die because statistically, they don't matter. I mean, where did that even come from?


I didn't say 'they didn't matter', I said 'a meaningless statistic' which is equivalent to 'very unimportant'. There is a difference in the syntax, but it won't be picked up by the parent as he's dragging me out into the street.

CDC/FDA strives for zero risk, that is their goal, and when they see people publicly state that the risk is 'very unimportant' they are more likely to conclude that the given demographic is question is unlikely to self regulate themselves, just as they did when so many cattle producers blew off BSE when it first became an issue, just as so many smokers and the tobacco industry did with cigarettes.

The odds of being killed in a US aviation accident (or even being in one) are said to be 1 in 11 million, (.07 per Billion passenger miles) and even in infancy, was considerably safer than an automobile, yet the industry, both private and commercial is heavily regulated regarding safety, maintenance, and health. It did not get that way in a vacuum.  Any sector that ignores or pooh poohs risk to themselves or the public is shooting themselves in the foot.

2. Hypothetical questions .
Mary Poppins is and has been for many months, selling backyard flock produced eggs at the weekly flea market.
The guy in the next booth selling Chinese widgets, puts up a sign saying





1. Compared to previous weekends, did Mary Poppins sell more, less, or an equal quantity of eggs that weekend?
2. Do the members of the general public reading that sign believe the backyard producers are serious or just 'blah blah blah' about their own and the public's risk of infection?

Try, to look at the world thru it's eyes and not thru your's. See the world as it is, not as we are or as we would like it to be.

If home egg producers and home producers of any kind want federal regs, and fewer permits to keep backyard flocks and herds, then continue to minimize/rationalize risk factors, because that's how you get regulation.
Again, it was a silly thing to say, but from what I've read here and everywhere else, it is being repeated over and over again.


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## mystang89

So what you're trying to say is that the higher powers that be are saying that much of the salmonella cases are caused by backyard flocks and because the higher powers that be are saying this many people take it at face value without doing the proper research?

Sounds like how fake news gets spread around.  One person shares something and no one does the homework on it so it gets passed around for more people and eventually its right up there with real news.


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## greybeard

mystang89 said:


> So what you're trying to say is that the higher powers that be are saying that much of the salmonella cases are caused by backyard flocks and because the higher powers that be are saying this many people take it at face value without doing the proper research?
> 
> Sounds like how fake news gets spread around.  One person shares something and no one does the homework on it so it gets passed around for more people and eventually its right up there with real news.


If you are talking to me, I can assure you that CDC 'does it's homework'. It's not the regulators or public health investigators that are living on the banks of _'da nile'_...

Look at some of the pics that have been posted of backyard chicken pens across the web. The pics of children holding and hugging live poultry in some of those pens. The texts describing kids and adults getting 'kisses' from poultry.


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## Goat Whisperer

greybeard said:


> Look at some of the pics that have been posted of backyard chicken pens across the web. The pics of children holding and hugging live poultry in some of those pens. The texts describing kids and adults getting 'kisses' from poultry.


This!! 

Most would be surprised with how many people kiss their chickens. Or eating while/right after touching chickens. It doesn’t surprise me that NC had the most cases. Lots of crazy chicken people here (I say that nicely!). Backyard flocks are huge here. 

Several years ago all our feedstores had to put fence panels around their chick brooders. People were handling chicks and then getting ill. If I remember right, there were several deaths. 

A little off topic, but still similar. 
I was just at a goat show. So many people are eating snacks while going through touching the animals. Made me crazy. 
City slickers petting livestock, and then eating with bare hands. 

Our state fair has closed off all livestock from the public. People were getting E. coli from the petting zoo.


----------



## greybeard

Goat Whisperer said:


> This!!
> 
> Most would be surprised with how many people kiss their chickens. Or eating while/right after touching chickens. It doesn’t surprise me that NC had the most cases. Lots of crazy chicken people here (I say that nicely!). Backyard flocks are huge here.
> 
> Several years ago all our feedstores had to put fence panels around their chick brooders. People were handling chicks and then getting ill. If I remember right, there were several deaths.
> 
> A little off topic, but still similar.
> I was just at a goat show. So many people are eating snacks while going through touching the animals. Made me crazy.
> City slickers petting livestock, and then eating with bare hands.
> 
> Our state fair has closed off all livestock from the public. People were getting E. coli from the petting zoo.



This too, will all be written off via some kind of blind rationalization. 
The whole thing is rather sad, but if the public comes to the logical conclusion that 'if they don't even care about themselves or their own, what expectation can we have that they would care about us?'


----------



## greybeard

The 1st 9 months of last year, CDC reported :
_From Jan. 4 to Sept. 22, 2017, the live backyard poultry-related outbreaks reported by the CDC affected 1,120 people in 48 states and the District of Columbia. Of those who became ill, nearly 250 were hospitalized, with one death reported in North Carolina._
https://health.usnews.com/health-ca...-20/are-backyard-chickens-bad-for-your-health


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/04/health/backyard-chickens-carry-a-hidden-risk-salmonella.html
_
Outbreaks have been reported for several years now, but case numbers shot up sharply last year and are expected to continue to rise.

“Over the years, we’ve accumulated a pretty serious health issue,” said Dr. Megin Nichols, a veterinarian at the C.D.C. who tracks outbreaks. “Ownership of live poultry and the interest in raising backyard chickens and ducks is really growing.”

They give the birds clever names, like Oprah Henfrey and Sir Lays-a-lot, Mr. Schneider (The Chicken Whisperer) said. “They hug them, kiss them, put clothes on them, bring them inside the house,” he added — all behaviors that increase the risk of infection.
_

Those of us that raise livestock and poultry can ill afford to give the public more cause to mistrust us or the safeness of our products.


----------



## mystang89

> The 1st 9 months of last year, CDC reported :
> _From Jan. 4 to Sept. 22, 2017, the live backyard poultry-related outbreaks reported by the CDC affected 1,120 people in 48 states and the District of Columbia. Of those who became ill, nearly 250 were hospitalized, with one death reported in North Carolina._
> https://health.usnews.com/health-ca...-20/are-backyard-chickens-bad-for-your-health
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/04/health/backyard-chickens-carry-a-hidden-risk-salmonella.html
> _
> Outbreaks have been reported for several years now, but case numbers shot up sharply last year and are expected to continue to rise.
> 
> “Over the years, we’ve accumulated a pretty serious health issue,” said Dr. Megin Nichols, a veterinarian at the C.D.C. who tracks outbreaks. “Ownership of live poultry and the interest in raising backyard chickens and ducks is really growing.”
> 
> They give the birds clever names, like Oprah Henfrey and Sir Lays-a-lot, Mr. Schneider (The Chicken Whisperer) said. “They hug them, kiss them, put clothes on them, bring them inside the house,” he added — all behaviors that increase the risk of infection._



I'm not going to be so blind as to believe that there are and have been cases of salmonella because of backyard flocks, however I'm also not going to live with my head in the sand about some of the unsanitary hen houses that are so called "regulated".

IMHO, the more people hear about the "unsafe and unregulated" backyard herds, then the more the government is going to regulate the allowance and tolerance of having chickens unless you conform to what the government issues as a safe way to keep animals.



> Those of us that raise livestock and poultry can ill afford to give the public more cause to mistrust us or the safeness of our products.



^^This
What people need to do and be taught is to simply be smart about animal raising. CLEANLINESS! There is a reason soap was invented. Once finished with my animals, wash myself. This is what needs to be posted.


----------



## Latestarter

Last comment from me on this, but it's also once again a disconnect of people from their food sources. People think that food comes from the "grocery store" and forget the stages before the end product goes in the cases and on the selves. They have no idea about farm life and farm precautions and some simply lack common sense. Again, an education issue vice regulation (grow government, regulations, restrictions, loss of freedoms, add taxes/fees to support it). Punish (regulate/tax) the many for the idiocy of the few. Sure would be nice if everyone did things the right way without having to pay big brother to watch over them. It's not just backyard "farmers" either... there have been issues with vegetables and fruits as well.


----------



## Sheepshape

Latestarter said:


> but it's also once again a disconnect of people from their food sources.


 I've only just come to read some of this thread, but, Latestarter, I SO agree with where you are coming from.

Now I'm a strict veggie who keeps sheep/chickens etc. Maybe there's a bit of hypocrisy here, but the animals have a very good quality of life. The sheep (and to a large extent the chickens) are treated as sentient beings. I don't try to fool myself that the ram lambs go anywhere other than to be food, and the ewes are producers of more sheep to be slaughtered for food.I therefore knew I had to go to the slaughterhouse to which we directly sell our sheep to make sure they were treated compassionately. So....I spent a day there. It goes like this......you grade your lambs who are to go for slaughter (we use the EUROP classification). the lambs then go to the slaughterhouse. They are stunned and killed, then you see the sheep after it is skinned and prior to butchery to check your accuracy.

Our local slaughterhouse has good standards. The animals are treated in a proper fashion. No panicking, no bellowing.....quiet and efficient.

Most of my non-veggie friends and relatives seem horrified that I have seen all this, and I'm seriously weird.  I think it's them that are in denial....some of them  think their meat comes on trays covered with cling film from the Meat God.I'm honestly not meaning to mock my omnivorous friends....what a person chooses to eat is entirely their own choice, but everyone ought to take a reality check.


----------



## Mini Horses

Sheepshape said:


> what a person chooses to eat is entirely their own choice, but everyone ought to take a reality check.



You and LS are right -- many people do NOT know or even THINK about their foods being from a tray or rack in the store -- nothing bore they got there.   The issues with growing, feeding, collecting, handling -- BEFORE the grocery store are not even known by many.    A farmer somewhere had to raise, breed, feed and milk that cow to get milk to go to a factory where even MORE people & machines put it into the nice gallon jug!    No -- they only know milk "comes" that way!  

It is also why livestock are petted with no thoughts about what dirt they carry.   Even your dogs &  cats carry their own challenges.   We should not be a population that does not realize this, yet sometimes playing in such "dirt" makes our immune systems stronger.     Play in the dirt and then wash up!


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## Bruce

OK, so I have to ask again:

Is there a way to test your flock for salmonella while they are still living breathing sentient beings? 
Were the cases of Salmonella in people who had processed their own birds? I know if you aren't careful you can cut into the digestive tract and let loose bacteria. Proper cleanliness is mandatory.


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## Mini Horses

https://www.tractorsupply.com/know-...uestions-about-salmonella-and-backyard-flocks

Basically, all birds can carry the bacteria.  Testing fecal suggested.   Etc.  Other links in article

I haven't looked to see if the reported cases were from/after butchering or otherwise.   Certainly you could search & find some of that info.  Maybe from State sites?

Obviously a test can be done -- swabbing for samples and/or blood draw.  Then there's the proper handling, packaging, etc.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Bruce said:


> OK, so I have to ask again:
> 
> Is there a way to test your flock for salmonella while they are still living breathing sentient beings?
> Were the cases of Salmonella in people who had processed their own birds? I know if you aren't careful you can cut into the digestive tract and let loose bacteria. Proper cleanliness is mandatory.



I didn't read all the articles @greybeard posted, so can't say.

NPIP is a great resource when it comes to disease testing poultry. It's been many years since I looked at the site, I think all our old books on testing types/methods are now gone. Back when we were a poultry breeding farm, I spent more time researching. We had regular testing of AI, and pullorum-typhiod and even did MG.
Different tests:  http://www.poultryimprovement.org/Salmonella.cfm

Now the breeding farm is gone. We just have a few old birds left, and I don't watch/read much about poultry.


----------



## Bruce

Thanks GW.


----------



## greybeard

Bruce said:


> OK, so I have to ask again:
> 
> Is there a way to test your flock for salmonella while they are still living breathing sentient beings?



You simply assume they all do, as salmonella is so common in any farm environment, just as I assume all my cattle are dropping salmonella and E Coli every time they poop.


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## Mike CHS

I assume we all take hygiene seriously doing what we do.  We have several school teachers that bring their classes out to see how animals are raised.  Even though we are a rural area the town people have no idea how food is raised so the schools have some involvement with 4H.  Tennessee has a pretty good program going that shows the real world of how food is raised.  We don't let any of the children touch any of our animals since we don't want them thinking small farms are petting zoos.  They enjoy the visits it seems and we make sure they at least get to pet those vicious Livestock Guardian Dogs.


----------



## Bruce

Mike CHS said:


> and we make sure they at least get to pet those vicious Livestock Guardian Dogs.


ACK! They'll never guard anything if you let them interact with humans!!


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## Sheepshape

Maybe safest to assume that all chicken /eggs have Salmonella and cook eggs so that the albumin and the yolk are fully solid, and chicken meat 'over 140F for over an hour' after making sure that there's no trace of guts in the body cavity. Probably leaves a pretty dried out piece of meat....but, then again, you'd expect such 'sage' advice from someone who hasn't eaten chicken for over 30 years! I believe that one of the worst problems is when chicken meat is held at fairly low temperatures e.g in mass catering.

I THINK my own little chicken flock is Salmonella-free. If any birds are killed (and that is a rarity), they are eaten by the dog, but my family and friends  eat eggs from the birds which are cooked pretty soft. To date they remain well......


Mini Horses said:


> yet sometimes playing in such "dirt" makes our immune systems stronger.  Play in the dirt and then wash up!


 I think there's fairly good evidence now that keeping babies and young children in too clean an environment means that they don't develop such a good immune system. So when toddler drops food on the floor and immediately returns it to his mouth, he MAY be doing himself more good than harm.


----------



## mystang89

Sheepshape said:


> So when toddler drops food on the floor and immediately returns it to his mouth, he MAY be doing himself more good than harm.



5 second time exists here but it's normally cut shorter, not because of safety it anything, but if the children don't get down there quickly the dog already has it. Maybe that's why my dog hardly gets sick.  I may need to rethink my lifestyle and start living like dogs.


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## Bruce

You could just skip the plates and serve the food on the floor.


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## Latestarter

Think of the eco savings doing so Bruce... electricity &/or gas (hot water/dishwasher), water, soap, manpower/hours with doing dishes, savings with not needing to clean the floors as the kids and dogs will wash them for you. Better health for all involved... I mean it sounds like a good plan to me for many reasons!


----------



## Sheepshape

Soup would be a bit of a problem methinks.......


----------



## frustratedearthmother




----------



## mystang89

LOL! Some great ideas!


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## Bruce

Sheepshape said:


> Soup would be a bit of a problem methinks.......


Since you have to heat it in a pot anyway, just put the pot on the table and give everyone a spoon.


----------



## greybeard

Mike CHS said:


> I assume we all take hygiene seriously doing what we do.



To a point, that is possibly true, but there is an anomaly in human behavior that goes along the lines of 'It's never happened to me, therefore it won't."  We're all guilty of it, as is indicated in the comments of this thread and most I've seen elsewhere regarding the same subject matter.

My complaint about the initial article is not so much that it happened, but that a back yard farmer or flock keeper made the silly and ill thought out public comment to a news agency, basically blowing the numbers and potential risk off. We see the same thing here (this thread's comments) to a great extent. CDC didn't go to the trouble to issue that report for no reason. They're watching..and, they're watching our response. 

And, as I've said, regulatory agencies, local, state, and federal have a very long and inexhaustible history of not only protecting the public domain from "us" but are equally adept and ready to set standards and protocol "protecting 'us' from ourselves".  (those federally mandated seat belts and air bags you pay for when you buy a new car aren't there  to protect 'the other guy')


----------



## Sheepshape

Bruce said:


> just put the pot on the table and give everyone a spoon.


 Too many dirty spoons...... pass the pot around the table either share the spoon or drink from the pot....you've heard of car sharing? Well this is germ sharing.


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## Bruce

Oh, yeah, who needs spoons (as long as you let the pot cool appropriately first).


----------



## Simpleterrier

So if u wash your hands and change your clothes after working with animals do u also not take coffee to the barn with u in the morning?

Just a question.


----------



## greybeard

Circa 1965-1966-1967 Vocational AG class.Don't eat or drink while actively feeding or working with livestock. It's one of the 1st learned basics.


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## Mike CHS

I can remember our Ag instructor beating that into our heads when I was in High School and he had some real graphic illustrations to push the point even though that part of the industry wasn't as advanced as now.


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today July 29, Today is  National Chicken Wing Day.

Get 'em free or reduced:
http://time.com/money/5351093/free-chicken-wings-deals-national-chicken-wing-day-2018/
https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/national-chicken-wing-day-deals-2018



And, we would be remiss not to mention that 60 years ago today, President Eisenhower signed the bill that created NASA. 





The successes and failures in space exploration over the last 60 years have been both heartbreaking and astounding and I and those my age are very lucky to have lived in these interesting times. When Grissom, Chafee and White died in the capsule atop the Apollo One rocket, the whole country mourned. The same when Columbia and Challenger were lost.  But, things have progressed....Re-landing rockets vertically and re-using them again......something that used to only happen in sci-fi books, magazines and 50s movies.


----------



## Latestarter

I watched one of those re-landing rockets about a month ago following a launch. Blew me away! I had no idea they were doing that let alone capable of doing it.   Just amazing. So what does everyone think of the premise that we already have a (secret/undisclosed) space base on the moon/mars?


----------



## greybeard

Latestarter said:


> So what does everyone think of the premise that we already have a (secret/undisclosed) space base on the moon/mars?


Not much.
Too many eyes/ears in the world today to hide such a thing.


If this was the landing you saw, it was indeed impressive. 2 of the three 1st stage  boosters From Falcon Heavy landing side by side at the same time. (the 3rd one was to land on a barge in the Atlantic--it was unsuccessful due to heavy seas.)


----------



## Mike CHS

Our daughter and son-in-law work for Tessla so we have been able to see some really awesome design work during the SpaceX development.


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## greybeard

I am less than impressed with the flying water heater looking thing that New Origin/Blue Shepard has thus far flown, even tho they were the 1st to land vertically.


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## Bruce

Latestarter said:


> So what does everyone think of the premise that we already have a (secret/undisclosed) space base on the moon/mars?


Conspiracy theory at best.

That SpaceX display was awesome. Not only reusable but the 2 stages self recovered on land back at the launch site. That has to save some big bucks.


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## Latestarter

The one I saw landed on a barge at sea... I was absolutely amazed! I was flipping through channels and just happened to stop there as they were minutes from launch. After the launch and booster separation they started talking about booster recovery and I kept watching as I'd never heard of it. I didn't know they were doing that and was completely caught off guard & very impressed! Seeing both of these land simultaneously back at the launch site is even more impressive. wow.


----------



## greybeard

Some early failures. First successful drone ship landing was in 2016.




The speed at which they come down, (watch at 1:58) then decelerate at the last moment was amazing.


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## mystang89

I'm looking forward to when space flight will be cheap enough for the common person to be able to save up enough money to go into the deep beyond and see this beautiful planet from above. 

I'll probably be so old be that time they better have a wheel chair accessible rocket though lol.


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## greybeard

I won't live long enough to see that, or at least the 'cheap enough' part. 
Several people are trying to get passenger/'edge of space' tours ready tho. Branson, Bigelow Aerospace, and SpaceX being the front runners with ticket cots being somewhere between the cost of a super sports car and an entry level 2 bdr home in the suburbs of Cleveland Tx.

Several other companies have already gone down the tubes and filed bankruptcy..


----------



## greybeard

For those that like to live on the edge and equally like a really nasty burger...........an upcoming/advance notice (for you Bruce) of something "free". 



> The Big Mac has been a McDonald’s staple for 50 years now, and to celebrate the iconic sandwich’s golden anniversary, the chain wants to share one with the world. Starting August 2, customers will receive a cool limited-edition collectible metal coin with the purchase of every Big Mac *while supplies last*.
> 
> 
> Then, from August 3 through the end of the year, diners can redeem each coin for one free Big Mac.



Better get your 'coin' quick. World wide, there will only be 6.2 million tokens given out, tho it is unclear if they can/will be re-issued to new burger buyers on a revolving basis, or how many coins each franchise will get.. (Globally, McDonalds sells 15.2 million Big Macs each day)


----------



## Latestarter

When I eat there, the big mac is my go to. It has declined over the years and seems like it's more of everything else except burger. Now it seems the 2 burgers are like burger chips as opposed to actual burgers. Haven't had one in a while, maybe I'll go there for lunch on the 2nd.


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## greybeard

BigMac changed over the years to make it more 'healthy'. It doesn't help that they squash 'em down flatter than a single burger either. Same with Burger King. Of course, neither bother to show that in any of their advertisements.









6 yr old Big Mac, as fresh as the day it was made. ("Ja", he answered when asked "
Þú vilt fries með það ?". )
(You want fries with that?)

https://www.today.com/food/mcdonalds-burger-fries-shows-no-sign-rot-after-6-years-t60026


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## mystang89

I guess that could would simply be a collectors thing. I'm more of a pragmatic person. If I can't use it for something I need them I have no use it want for it. Now if I get a free burger if I turn it in them I'm game.


----------



## greybeard

mystang89 said:


> Now if I get a free burger if I turn it in them I'm game.


You do get a free Big Mac when you turn it in.


----------



## mystang89

Ah, I didn't see the rest of that statement. I'm in! Who turns down free food!?


----------



## Latestarter

Those pics of the ad vs reality are pretty much accurate... I haven't received a big mac that looked like the ad in many years.


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## Bruce

One would think there should be some "truth in advertising" requirement. Same with packaged foods, picture on the front looks nothing like (and of course WAY better) than what you get. Glutino pancake mix comes to mind. Light and fluffy, like the artists rendering? Um how about paper flat.  

So @greybeard, why was I specifically singled out? I go to McDonald's maybe twice a year and only when it is lunch time and I'm out doing stuff so I have to eat. I've never said, gee I'm hungry, guess I'll go drive to McD's. Same with Burger King. Personally I prefer BK burgers and McD's fries.


----------



## greybeard

Bruce said:


> So @greybeard, why was I specifically singled out?



The National Ice Cream Day thread..


Bruce said:


> Sure, post the link for the $3 off AFTER you snagged them all!



Wanted to make sure you got an early heads up...


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, It's SHARK WEEK! (and I'm tired of hearing about it)
but, some people take it way too seriously.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/07/3...by-stroller-suspect-reportedly-confesses.html

_
Two men have admitted to stealing a shark from a Texas aquarium over the weekend and using a baby stroller to smuggle the animal out of the building, officials revealed in an update on the bizarre case.

Leon Valley Police Chief Joe Salvaggio told reporters Monday night that the men confessed to taking the 1.5-foot-long horn shark from the San Antonio Aquarium after officers showed up at one of their homes with a search warrant.

The female shark, known as Helen, was brought back to the aquarium Monday evening and received a hero's welcome from employees. Salvaggio said the animal was in "very good condition."_

More at the link..


----------



## Mike CHS

Our Nashville TV station seemed to be fascinated by that shark story so I didn't watch as much as normal.

I thought the piece about no smoking being allowed in public housing starting Tuesday was interesting.  I never thought about it but I always assumed public housing was owned by the city/state it was located in.  Evidently much of it is Federally owned.  I'm not sure how enforceable it will be.


----------



## greybeard

The majority of tenants (clients) will be non-smokers. They'll keep it enforced.

In keeping with strange/interesting/trivial things in the news, The latest 'make-me-feel-good about myself' thing is getting rid of plastic straws and replacing them with paper straws. I think the last time I used or saw a paper straw, it was stuck in a little 1/2 pint paper container of milk in the school room cafeteria. 

I'll just leave this right here tho....


----------



## Bruce

greybeard said:


> Wanted to make sure you got an early heads up...


Ah, thank you, you are a considerate man!


----------



## mystang89

I saw somewhere online that the servers were going to be fined or face prison time for it. Ridiculous. Edit.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-jail-time-for-defying-plastic-straw-ban.html


----------



## Latestarter

@mystang89 Lost me with your previous... I am getting


----------



## greybeard

_

 

Psst, hey buddy, you cool...right? wanna buy a plastic straw? It's the real deal, not any of that flimsy paper stuff. $1 each. yeah, here ya go..thanks.Tell your friends. I'm here on this corner every day this time._

Just conceal carry.





mystang89 said:


> I saw somewhere online that the servers were going to be fined or face prison time for it. Ridiculous. Edit.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-jail-time-for-defying-plastic-straw-ban.html



The idiosyncrasies I spoke about in another thread.......


----------



## Bruce

I seriously doubt any server would be fined or jailed for giving out plastic straws. They wouldn't even be in the restaurant to give out. You really think they are going to conceal carry plastic straws ala Greybeards picture that they purchased themselves?


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, comes an advance notice of cosmic proportions.
Yes, it's that time of year again, the Perseid meteor shower is fast approaching and it should be a good one since the moon won't be a factor.
Friday night (August 10th-11th) and Saturday night (August 11th-12th) should give the best shows, with late Saturday night marking the expected maximum. By late, they mean any time after midnight, tho a spray of meteors can come at any time.
Where to look...
Well up of course, and you FB addicts/twits, leave your dang phones in the house...the light from them ruins your night vision.

You will be looking for the constellation Perseus, as that is the region the meteors appear to be radiating from, hence the name Perseid meteor shower. Problem is, Perseus isn't real easy to see or find, but a nearby constellation called Cassiopeia is. That time of night, Cassiopeia is in the shape of a W, tho since it is circumpolar to our eyes in this hemisphere, it never really sets below the horizon, but just sits 'up' there and rotates around, sometimes looking like a W, and E, then an M and eventually back to a W. At that time of night, tho it rotates as well, Perseus is just to the left and a little below Cassiopeia, but doesn't matter. Once you find Cassiopeia, you're so close you probably won't miss any but the most maverick of meteors. (the center star in Cassiopeia is kind of dim, and the W is a little crooked) Remember, more than one of these constellations are circumpolar, so their positions won't be exactly as seen in the below photo, but you get the idea.


----------



## greybeard

Bruce said:


> I seriously doubt any server would be fined or jailed for giving out plastic straws. They wouldn't even be in the restaurant to give out. You really think they are going to conceal carry plastic straws ala Greybeards picture that they purchased themselves?


My wife would carry her own, probably in her purse. She never drinks from a glass and pretty sure she isn't going to forego her plastic bendy straws for anyone. 

Obscure laws are used all the time for a reason to hold someone if the authorities think they may have committed another/different  crime but don't yet have the evidence to arrest them on that suspicion.


----------



## Bruce

I have an EE named Cassiopeia, I pretty much always know where to find her year round 
But yep, the constellation by the same name is one of the easiest to find in the summer sky, at least in the northern hemisphere. I doubt I could find Perseus so thanks for the picture and description. So away from the "lazy" leg of the W.


----------



## Bayleaf Meadows

I wish I could see the Milky Way.  Haven't been able to in years because of the light pollution.


----------



## greybeard

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> I wish I could see the Milky Way.  Haven't been able to in years because of the light pollution.


"Progress" comes with a price. I haven't seen it on a nightly basis since I left West Texas and it's only on rare occasions here that I can ever see it..like after a hurricane when electricity is out for several counties nearby.
1/3 of the earth's population can't see it and the great majority of at least the most recent generation of Americans have never seen it.

As a kid, I thought I had seen a full sky of stars, but once I went into the military and saw the sky from far out at sea, I realized I had not.


----------



## Latestarter

Have to echo GB on his last. You haven't seen the heavens till you see them on a moonless clear night a thousand miles from land. I used to look at the sky from an aircraft carrier, miles away from any other light source. When steaming "blacked out" if there were no flight ops, you could go up on the flight deck and just lay on your back staring up. There were so many stars, the sky was almost solid white. I was out there at sea when the last real comet went by and there were published pictures showing the tail behind it, but you could barely see the comet or its tail on land. I did see it and some tail driving across the Arizona desert on I-10. But, out in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, the tail went almost entirely across the sky to the horizon. It was amazing to see.


----------



## Bruce

I know what you are saying but if it makes you feel any better, everything you see in the sky is the Milky Way, it is our galaxy.






OK, everything that isn't man made


----------



## mystang89

When my family and I first moved out here to the country the night sky looked like a deep velvet blanket with beautiful diamonds printed in it.  Still looks that way, although I'm already seeing "progress" creeping its stingy little claws closer and closer to my heaven.  We had the fortune of being able to see Mars a few nights ago when the moon was at its fullest.  That was really awesome!


----------



## greybeard

> I know what you are saying but if it makes you feel any better, everything you see in the sky is the Milky Way, it is our galaxy.




Not exactly true Bruce, as we can see objects, (some with just the naked eye), beyond our galaxy, and we don't even know for sure what our galaxy (Milky Way) actually looks like.  All the pictures we see (like the one posted in your reply) are what we 'think' it looks like, based on nearby galaxies.
The nearest galaxy to us is Andromeda Galaxy (visible to us) and below Earth's equator, we can see the Magellanic spiral galaxies. (or Large and Small Magellanic Cloud galaxies)
Both are in huge elliptical orbits around our own galaxy.
Andromeda Constellation tho, IS in and is part of the Milky Way.

With a relatively cheap backyard telescope, you can see many dozens of objects outside the Milky Way.
https://www.amazon.com/Celestron-21049-127EQ-PowerSeeker-Telescope/dp/B0007UQNKY


----------



## Latestarter

Actually Bruce, that's not entirely true... Many of the "stars" we see are actually other galaxies, not stars from the Milky Way...


----------



## Bruce

OK, I will reword it. When you are looking at the night sky you are looking at or through the Milky Way


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, a 73rd anniversary.
Aug 6, 1945:


----------



## goatgurl

even though the dropping of that bomb hastened the end of the war I still find it hard to celebrate the anniversary of that event.


----------



## greybeard

Observe, not celebrate, tho I can easily remember my parents and uncles telling how it was indeed a celebratory event at the time. 

When I was quite young (maybe 6-7 yrs old), I can remember being in my father's auto shop listening to men who had been back from war not much longer than I had been alive.


----------



## Bruce

True @goatgurl, for those innocents that died, were maimed or permanently sickened. But from the WWII documentaries I've watched, those bombs likely saved millions of others both Japanese and Allied had the Allies gone on to invade Japan proper. At least at the time the Japanese were "no surrender, ever". It took that huge action to replace "no surrender" with thoughtful consideration of what continuing the war would mean to the people of Japan.

These days we get wound up about "collateral damage". Target drone on a compound with enemy fighters, kill some innocent women and children and there is a big uproar. That was not a "thing" in WWII, the devastation of the occupied countries was immense. Destruction of London in the Blitz, even though England was never invaded, lots of innocents killed.
"How many people died during the World War *Two* Blitz in Britain? During the Blitz *32,000* civilians were killed and *87,000* were seriously injured. *Two million* houses (*60* per cent of these in London) were destroyed in the Blitz."
http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/war/blitz.htm

I'd be willing to bet that if we had the A bomb 18 months earlier and dumped it on Berlin, DDay and everything that followed in Europe would have been unnecessary and the Japanese would have bailed at the same time. Hopefully the world will never get to that point again.

I've never thought about it before, Hiroshima was destroyed on my mother's 17th birthday.


----------



## goatgurl

i'll go with observe guys.  I certainly realize how those events changed the world and I agree with you both, it saved millions of lives.  but as you said @Bruce, it also cost so many innocent lives.  but when you look at the millions of lives that hitler and his followers took you kind of wish we could have dropped it on his head years sooner.


----------



## Bruce

Yeah, in hindsight, 1939 would have been an excellent time.


----------



## greybeard

We tend very much, to focus on the war in Europe and always have, perhaps because of our historic ties to that continent,and our familiarity with the name places and countries but by far the most difficult part (tho not the most deadly) of WW2 was the war in the Pacific, but for the dropping of the 2 bombs, that could have easily been reversed. 
Depending who you ask,
 In the Pacific, rounded, the US took about 360,00 casualties total. 

The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: Casualties

In Europe, and North Africa, it works out to about 750,000 casualties in total. 

But, the assault on Japan alone, (had it taken place) was projected  to cost more than what we lost in Europe. 
"A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley *estimated* that invading *Japan* would cost 1.7–4 million *American casualties*, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million *Japanese* fatalities."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall#Estimated_casualties

_In March 1945, there was only one combat division in Kyūshū. Over the next four months, the Imperial Japanese Army transferred forces from Manchuria, Korea, and northern Japan, while raising other forces in place. By August, they had 14 divisions and various smaller formations, including three tank brigades, for a total of 900,000 men.[59] Although the Japanese were able to raise large numbers of new soldiers, equipping them was more difficult. By August, the Japanese Army had the equivalent of 65 divisions in the homeland but only enough equipment for 40 and only enough ammunition for 30.[60]



In addition, the Japanese had organized the Volunteer Fighting Corps, which included all healthy men aged 15 to 60 and women 17 to 40 for a total of 28 million people, for combat support and, later, combat jobs. Weapons, training and uniforms were generally lacking: many were armed with nothing better than antiquated firearms, molotov cocktails, longbows, swords, knives, bamboo or wooden spears, and even clubs and truncheons; nevertheless, they were expected to make do with what they had.[62][63]One mobilized high school girl, Yukiko Kasai, found herself issued an awl and told, "Even killing one American soldier will do. ... You must aim for the abdomen."._

They wouldn't need much in the way of weapons. Numbers alone could overwhelm even division strength units.
Fight 28.9 million or drop the atom bombs? 
No brainer.


----------



## greybeard

goatgurl said:


> i'll go with observe guys.  I certainly realize how those events changed the world and I agree with you both, it saved millions of lives.  but as you said @Bruce, it also cost so many innocent lives.  but when you look at the millions of lives that hitler and his followers took you kind of wish we could have dropped it on his head years sooner.




Oh, no problem..you did say you realized why it had to be done.
Look at it this way too....those 2 bombs probably saved up to 29 million Japanese lives. 

Regarding Germany, I probably should not go into what I would have done at the end of the war, with that country and it's people.


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, comes a herd of cows, helping Seminole County Fla Sheriff's Dept corral a guy that stole then crashed a car. (I guess I'm supposed to say "allegedly stole and crashed a car")


----------



## Southern by choice




----------



## mystang89

LOL


----------



## RollingAcres

Hahahaha


----------



## Bruce

greybeard said:


> (I guess I'm supposed to say "allegedly stole and crashed a car")


Correct. No one is ever guilty even when caught red handed.

That video  Nothing like a herd to help the cops follow you.


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, Thursday Aug 9, North Korean honcho Kim Jong Un ate a fish pickling factory..while his minions looked dutifully on and took notes......







nom nom nom










Those are the biggest hats I ever saw for military...you could hide a whole infantry division under each one....or a nuclear missile.


----------



## Bruce

Those are some oddly designed hats. Maybe they carry their lunch in there (when there is no missile).


----------



## mystang89

greybeard said:


> Those are the biggest hats I ever saw for military...you could hide a whole infantry division under each one....or a nuclear missile.


LOL ditto


----------



## greybeard

The young lady in the pics btw, is his wife..N. Korean first lady I suppose she might be called. 
When I see pictures like these, I always wonder how many of the military officers in the background may not 'be around much longer', since that seems to be the way that regime works...assuming the news reports are anywhere near accurate. 
One was allegedly fed to starving dogs, another (as well as a group of young musicians) was reportedly stood in front of a rather large anti-aircraft gun, but interestingly enough, there have been other reports, that after these alleged executions, the victims have mysteriously 'returned to life', that is, been seen alive and well long after they were supposedly blasted or torn to bits. 
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...ngyang-execution-secret-weapon-return-to-life

Such is life in a hermit kingdom..


----------



## mystang89

greybeard said:


> reportedly stood in front of a rather large anti-aircraft gun



Well, at least their executions are "original".


----------



## greybeard

In the Real World News Today, is this the beginning of the end for Wrangler and Lee jeans?

Looks like yoga pants are the new official American pants, especially (but not limited to) women.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ay-exit-jeans-business-report-says/962379002/

One thing about yoga pants on women and men....the pants never lie.
I haven't worn anything but Wranglers for over 40 years now, so hopefully someone will buy the brand and continue making the same good product.


----------



## mystang89

If yoga jeans are the future of pants in going to do everything I can to make kilts a fad.


----------



## Southern by choice

YES!  Jury reaches verdict on Monsanto case.


----------



## greybeard

I'm not surprised by the verdict considering where the lawsuit was filed and case was heard, but it will be appealed and even if he lives to a ripe old age, he'll be lucky to ever see a dime of it.  And still, there is no definitive proof that glyphosate causes cancer.
A jury's emotional opinion doesn't replace science or scientific studies. 

In the infamous McDonalds hot coffee case, the plaintiff was awarded $200,000 in compensation for her pain and medical costs, a figure that was reduced to $160,000 because the jury found her 20 percent responsible. They also awarded her $2.7 million in punitive damages, which the trial judge reduced to $480,000, even though he called McDonald’s behavior had been “willful, wanton, and reckless.” The final settlement after appeals was even less.


----------



## Southern by choice

Actually Greybeard there is a lot of proof. The problem is that Monsanto has bullied every independent researcher and has the money to do so.
These things are coming to light as well as their internal emails.

Just like pharma companies. They do so much damage and are so big and powerful they just get away with it.

This has nothing to do with emotion.


----------



## greybeard

Juries tend to work on about 10% evidence and 90% emotion.  It's why the judge has to instruct them to avoid emotion and consider only the presented evidence; an instruction which juries very rarely bother to listen to, much less adhere to.

Had that trial been held in the Midwest, I suspect very much, the results would have been different.


----------



## Southern by choice

True, but at this point I am just glad.  I hope they lose every one of the 5,000 lawsuits against them.


----------



## mystang89

I completely agree with both though I do really hope that even with the appeal he lives long enough to see it through our his relatives continue. Someone needs to!


----------



## greybeard

This is actually a day late, the Real World News for Aug 17, 2018 is actually a tweet from a NHC meteorologist named Eric Blake.



 


As it happened to Texas, hour by hour:
(watch the date and hour change at lower left)

http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/tropics/harvey17/Harvey_25-31Aug17_regional.gif


----------



## greybeard

In the Real World News Today, (well, not actually 'today' or even this month) in a shocking development, a woman gives birth to twins right at the checkout counter of a brick and mortar store..somewhere.
Combined weight of the newborns was about 60 lbs!!


----------



## Bruce

Wow, she's strong to be able to carry both those batteries under the clothing.


----------



## mystang89

that's what I was thinking when I saw two of them. I know most of the weight was supported by the wrap but still.


----------



## greybeard

In the Real World News Today, Sept 2 2018 is.weather. The wet, salty, windy kind.
https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/91L-Likely-Become-Gulf-Mexico-Tropical-Cyclone-Tuesday

*91L Likely to Become a Gulf of Mexico Tropical Cyclone by Tuesday*
Invest91L is what this wave is currently being called.
Here's where it is, and where it is 'thought' to be going:

_
Thunderstorm activity associated with a tropical wave located
between north-central Cuba and the central Bahamas is gradually
becoming better organized, and upper-level winds are also becoming
more favorable. A tropical depression is likely to form during the
next day or so while the system moves west-northwestward across the
northwestern Bahamas, southern Florida, and the Florida Keys. The
system is forecast to emerge over the southeastern Gulf of Mexico by
early Tuesday and move toward the north-central Gulf Coast Tuesday
night and Wednesday. This system will produce locally heavy rains
and gusty winds across the central and northwestern Bahamas,
southern Florida, and the Florida Keys during the next day or two. A
tropical storm watch could be issued for portions of the northern
Gulf Coast tonight. Interests in these areas should monitor the
progress of this system. There is a high chance for tropical cyclone
formation within 48 hours.



 

A different look at it's future:


 

Who else (besides coastal Louisiana) may it affect this week?
Lots of folks:


 

And, as a reminder:

The latest rainfall guidance from the National Weather Service predicts that 91L will bring widespread rainfall amounts of 5" to the U.S. Gulf Coast. The coast along the Texas/Louisiana border is already experiencing heavy rains due to a separate weather system; some areas had already gotten 3" of rain by Sunday afternoon, according to the NWS in Lake Charles.  From the NWS in Houston: "Our local flash flood decision tree is indicating a high risk of flash flooding with maximum rainfall totals by Monday evening between 8-10 inches. What is worrisome is that the TT WRF is showing a boundary and training cells over Galveston/Brazoria and southern Harris counties Monday morning (09-18z). A Flash Flood Watch will be required tonight and Monday for a large part of SE TX."


*More African waves to watch this week*
The African tropical wave factory will kick out at least two more systems worth monitoring this week, with the European model showing the potential for development of new tropical waves emerging from the coast on Monday and on Thursday. It’s that time of year!


It's just a big poop samich and some of us just gonna have to take a bite of it........again._


----------



## greybeard

In The Real World news Today, something is killing Kentucky livestock.....3 ponies and a dog. 
https://www.wbko.com/content/news/N...led-three-ponies-dog-on-Sunday-492442851.html

Sounds a bit suspicious with conflicting reports regarding what Ky wildlife dept did or did not say.



> MONROE COUNTY, Ky. (WBKO) -- Questions still linger after three ponies and one dog were killed in Monroe County in the early morning hours on Sunday. The Department of Fish and Wildlife assisted the Monroe County Sheriff's Office with the investigation.









> Now, both agencies have varying views on what or who was responsible for the attack.
> 
> On Sunday, the Denton's, Sheriff Ford and even the biologist on scene, noticed peculiar animal footprints, but not enough to make a conclusive determination as to what kind of animal it was.
> 
> The following day, Fish and Wildlife told 13 News that "the animals' wounds are inconsistent with a large predator attack." They said they did not have conclusive answers as to what caused the attack at this time.
> 
> "We're devastated that's all we can say," said Janet Denton, owner of the ponies and dog that died Sunday.
> 
> It's been two days since the Denton's lost their four animals.
> 
> "We have had the animals buried at this point for the simple fact that they were deteriorating and we had to bury them," said Denton.
> 
> Still, the question remains -- who or what is responsible for their deaths.
> 
> "We've got cameras out hoping to catch some pictures and we made the community aware of what's going on for their safety," said Sheriff Dale Ford with the Monroe County Sheriff's Office.
> 
> The answer to that question stirring up a lot of controversy in this small town -- as Kentucky fish and wildlife sent me this statement saying “A wild animal played no role in the deaths of three horses killed in Monroe County"
> 
> "How they come to that conclusion? asked Denton.
> 
> The owner of the animals, as well as the sheriff, don't seem to agree with fish and wildlife.
> 
> "Fish and wildlife sent three people down here. They took pictures like we did. There was no DNA taken, no blood samples, no tissue no hair samples," said Sheriff Ford.
> 
> Fish and Wildlife said "Investigators reached their conclusion after a careful evaluation of the wounds and the scene. A husky found dead nearby suffered no visible wounds."
> 
> Denton said she's been ridiculed on social media -- even accused.
> 
> "What's the motive? What do we have to gain from any of this besides a financial loss?"
> 
> While Department of Fish and Wildlife, the sheriff's office is keeping all options open.
> 
> "I want people to understand that I'd rather by made a fool of and it be nothing than someone get hurt or killed and me not let them know," said Sheriff Ford. "My priority is the safety of the people of Monroe County."
> 
> Sheriff Ford says Fish and Wildlife reached out to him, and asked that they update their Facebook post to say the animals suffered apparent gunshot wounds. Kentucky's Fish and Wildlife statement does not say anything about gunshot wounds.



another article, with a little different info:
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018...ssibly-killed-by-large-cat-officials-say.html


----------



## Wehner Homestead

greybeard said:


> In The Real World news Today, something is killing Kentucky livestock.....3 ponies and a dog.
> https://www.wbko.com/content/news/N...led-three-ponies-dog-on-Sunday-492442851.html
> 
> Sounds a bit suspicious with conflicting reports regarding what Ky wildlife dept did or did not say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> another article, with a little different info:
> http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018...ssibly-killed-by-large-cat-officials-say.html



This is about 2.5 hrs from me. There’s reports of cougar on game cams less than 30 miles away so I could definitely see one being in that area.


----------



## Bruce

Except that they said it wasn't a large predator. I bet someone slashed them hoping it would be seen as a cougar attack. And the dog had no visible wounds? Cougar scared it to death? Not a cougar, probably blunt trauma to the head.


----------



## Wehner Homestead

I don’t trust news outlets.  It’s hard telling what really happened.


----------



## greybeard

In the Real World News Today, Sept 17 2018, something from a different storm. Typhoon Mangkhut  that hit Hong Kong over the weekend...winds up to 100mph and most of Hong Kong is built right on the water's edge.

I saw this 'After the storm'  picture of Hong Kong today, and wondered what the deal was with all the bamboo in the middle of the streets.






https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/17/world/asia/typhoon-mangkhut-hong-kong.html

Had to look for the reason.
Seems bamboo scaffolding even on high rise buidings in Hong Kong is 'a thing', and sometimes they wrap it all in plastic sheeting....or, silk. And, tho it will support a lot of weight, it evidently can't survive 100mph wind. 




https://www.featureshoot.com/2014/0...&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=peter-steinhauer













https://www.pinterest.com/pin/749216087980557855/

anyway, as always,  I found it interesting how they do things in the rest of the world...


----------



## Mike CHS

That is mind boggling and I can assume OSHA would not approve.


----------



## Bruce

Yeah, kinda scary looking.


----------



## RollingAcres

Definitely not OSHA approved...however bamboo is very strong


----------



## Bruce

Clearly. It isn't like they just decided to try this today.


----------



## greybeard

No, they've done things this way for thousands of years...just not as high.


----------



## farmerjan

Wow, just wow.  I cannot having no fear of heights with so little under you.  Give me TERRA FIRMA  any day.   I used to climb to the top of the 70 ft Harvestor silo on the dairy I worked on in CT but it did have a  ladder  with metal framing to give you some semblance of safety.  Not anymore.  Heights scare me now but some of that is from the accident I had that has thrown my depth perception off. 
God Bless them.... but it was very interesting to see.  And I have read that bamboo is very strong.
All what you are used to.

Looks like pick up stix in that picture....


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, Oct 22 2018, NASA has posted pictures of a big iceberg from Antarctic that looks to be precision cut in the form of a big rectangle, with perfect 90 degree corners.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevor...a-as-if-it-was-deliberately-cut/#6110c9f95b90

(This is an actual real photo, not photoshopped or "artist's rendition")




Why..how.......by who.......?


----------



## Bruce

That is pretty weird.


----------



## RollingAcres




----------



## OneFineAcre

Looks fake


----------



## greybeard

"





> Looks fake


"
Which is why it made the news and why it is so interesting.
Evidently, tabular icebergs aren't all that unusual. What IS unusual is 1st finding, then being able to get a picture of one before the wind and waves wear off the sharp corners and steep sides. (the ocean is a really really big place)
https://www.businessinsider.com/nasa-photo-rectangular-iceberg-antarctica-2018-10?r=UK&IR=T

https://www.routard.com/photos/canada/144874-iceberg_tabulaire.htm


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today Oct 26 2018, some not-so-real news.


----------



## Bruce




----------



## RollingAcres




----------



## mystang89

....... That man seriously just spent three minutes talking about milking a nut... And didn't crack a smile or laugh once....I seriously just spent three minutes watching a man talk about milking a nut..... I'm, going back to sleep. I must be real tired.


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, an online business from one of our more illustrious trading "partners" smashed their own record of single day sales.
Alibaba, an online 'far east' company 'similar' to Amazon, had made $25,300,000,000 in sales and there were still several hours of the day left. In the first 85 seconds of the day, they made $1,000,000,000 in sales.  $25.3 billion in less than 24 hrs and $1 billion in 1 min & 25 seconds. Just over 1 hour into the day, they had sold $10 billion worth of goods. And, they don't actually sell any physical product...Alibaba is just a pimp, for other companies. A facillitator of sorts, but they are raking in a ton of $$$

Is this an everyday occurrence for this company?
No.

It is the anti Valentines day in that country, called Singles Day or Double 11 day for the date it falls on. 11-11
 On November 11, that country's singles celebrate being single and proud, especially by treating themselves with presents. Singles day tho, is catching on in other parts of the world including our own country and Europe.

Was all of it because of single's day? No, a portion of it was part of everyday sales.
How much of that was sold to US buyers? We won't know for about a week, when Alibaba releases the general sales data. How big of a chunk did that take out of US online sales? We won't know that either but it will be a significant amount.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/alibaba-smashes-25-3-billion-093900389.html

(BTW, Singles Day, was created by...........drum roll please.......Alibaba. Sorta.
_Originally called “Bachelors Day,” the holiday was invented in the 1990s as a sort of response to Valentine’s Day. Alibaba took the reins in 2009, changed the name, encouraging retailers to offer steep discounts in what would eventually morph into a weeks-long shopping event that peaks on Nov. 11._
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/thetell/2013/11/10/china-enjoys-its-own-hallmark-holiday-on-steroids/
In 2014, Alibaba and it's offspring Tmall did business in 220 countries worldwide. (Tmall allows other nation's businesses to do direct  business-to-consumer sales within China and vice versa.)
Alibaba also facilitates supplying much of the non-China world's import needs/wants to those nation's businesses. 

I suspect this is not one of Jeff Bezos' favorite days. 
Happy Singles Day!


----------



## Bruce

Talk about conspicuous consumption.


----------



## mystang89

Wish the sales I have on eBay and CL would do as well...


----------



## greybeard

This weekend:
undocumented immigrants


----------



## Bruce

Leonid meteors that may manage to make it through the atmosphere are undocumented immigrants?


----------



## greybeard

I think it is an apt description.
1. Weren't invited.
2. Most are never seen by anyone or anything and therefore,  only a very tiny % are ever documented meaning there is no record (official or otherwise) of their arrival.
3. We (humanity) have no idea where the hundreds of thousands (tens of millions?) of meteors that previously passed thru our atmosphere presently are.
4. There is a school of scientific thought, that life itself originally hitched a ride to Earth via a meteor or comet.
5. The title piqued your curiosity enough to click the link didn't it?


----------



## Bruce

It did!

Is Trump gonna send the armed forces to intercept these alien invaders charging our borders?


----------



## Rammy

They will get in. Goodbye USA.


----------



## greybeard

Bruce said:


> It did!
> 
> Is Trump gonna send the armed forces to intercept these alien invaders charging our borders?


To answer that would require breaking the BYH "Prime directive" rule.


----------



## greybeard

So Let it begin again..


----------



## Bruce

Furry beaver friends?


----------



## greybeard

Bruce said:


> Furry beaver friends?


yes.
They are covering some old collapsed tunnels that lead from the water over to some sweetgum trees so they can travel underground & undetected  instead of out in the open above ground.
I have to be careful where I drive in that area.


----------



## Carla D

This is a really cool thread. I don’t know how I stumbled upon it. I’m glad I did though. Thank you @greybeard .


----------



## farmerjan

Rammy said:


>



OKAY  NOW,  let's think animal kingdom, water swimming RODENT, flat tail, .......


----------



## Bruce

I think Rammy is projecting her proclivity for such things on ME!

And yes, I was asking about the kind @farmerjan described.


----------



## Rammy

My apologies. I will delete said offensive post.


----------



## Bruce

We are just kidding around with you Rammy! It was not offensive.


----------



## B&B Happy goats

Rammy said:


> My apologies. I will delete said offensive post.


 save the beaver !


----------



## Rammy

I know. But I admire you and many others on here and would rather just delete something than to think I hurt someones feelings or offended someone. Sometimes I dont think how it may come across to someone else on here. Im glad I didnt offend you.


----------



## greybeard

too late


----------



## Bruce

Rammy said:


> I know. But I admire you and many others on here and would rather just delete something than to think I hurt someones feelings or offended someone. Sometimes I dont think how it may come across to someone else on here. Im glad I didnt offend you.


I can honestly say I don't think I've read any posts that were offensive. Of course we do get more "edgy" with some people who we have figured out enjoy that sort of thing.


----------



## B&B Happy goats

greybeard said:


> too lateView attachment 54951


Nice job !


----------



## greybeard

No one on the internet and very very VERY few in real life have ever offended me. For them to be able to do so means I must first _choose_ to BE offended. I have and will continue to choose not to be.

In today's world, it appears  people can and often do choose be offended by anything and anyone at any time for any reason. Any news webpage will confirm that on a weekly basis.

I tend to take heed of the advise given in Nifty's Rules post.
_2) If you ever feel a post is directed to you personally and that someone may be "attacking" you, by no means respond publicly. Hit the report button on the bottom of that post and the forum staff will review and take action if needed.

3) Express your differences of opinion as such.

4) Remember there are lots of challenges with communicating by text only. So much is lost (tone, body language, etc.) which can cause a HUGE miscommunication problem. Per wikipedia:

"Some researchers put the level of nonverbal communication as high as 80 percent of all communication. More reasonably it could be at around 50-65 percent. Thats exactly what Mehrabian discovered in his communication study. He found that only 7 percent of communication comes from spoken words, 38 percent is from the tone of the voice, and 55 percent comes from body language."

So, you can see that in cases where people are reading and then posting replies to a comment, especially one that has a lot of emotion, a TON of information can be lost or miscommunication. This is usually responsible for 90% of the problems on forums which cause threads to be locked or removed.

We encourage everyone to be VERY careful as they read AND reply to posts on a forum  (i.e., have a thick skin when reading and be very friendly and clear when posting)._

https://www.backyardherds.com/threa...cked-topics-freedom-of-speech-trolling.17190/


----------



## farmerjan

@Rammy   I am sorry, I WAS TEASING..... I thought it was funny and I was just coming back at you in a teasing manner.  I WAS NOT OFFENDED!!!!!!!!  I enjoy most all of your humor and get a kick out of how you can bring something to mind in the simple shifting of words....  I am not very good at some dry humor sometimes.  

It really was meant to "get back at you" in a fun way.  PLEASE DON"T DELETE POSTS.... I won't have anything to smile about..


----------



## Rammy




----------



## Rammy

Happy thanksgiving, everyone!


----------



## Latestarter

Back Atcha!


----------



## greybeard

In the real world news today, Nov 24 2018, Some university researchers have presented a different way to handle 'climate change/global warming'....
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/23/health/sun-dimming-aerosols-global-warming-intl-scli/index.html
They propose to spray sulfate particles into the upper atmosphere to dim the amount of sunlight that gets thru our atmosphere.
(Isn't that what burning coal and hi sulfur diesel was doing a few decades back?) 

Guy: Will it rain today?
Scientist:  Well, weather is an extremely complex matter, with thousands of unpredictable variables. The best I can do is give you an educated guess with only medium  odds of accuracy.
Guy: that's the best you scientists can do?
Scientist: Yep.
guy: Dude, don't *%@!* with the sun!


----------



## Bruce

greybeard said:


> They propose to spray sulfate particles into the upper atmosphere to dim the amount of sunlight that gets thru our atmosphere.


Yeah, brilliant idea. Maybe we can build a giant umbrella and put it into orbit between us and the sun.


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## Latestarter

And cover it in photovoltaic cells that can send the pwr back to earth as microwaves.


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## Bruce

Oh, great addition to the project @Latestarter ! We could beam it directly to each building do we don't need any transmission lines.


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## greybeard

Nikola, is that you?


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## Latestarter

Oh, hadn't considered the loss of revenue from "free power for all"... skip my idea.


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## Bruce

There's always something!


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## greybeard

In The Real World news Today, ......Nov 29 2018......*The Dead Sea Is Dying.*
(Yeah, I had always thought it died many centuries ago too--hence the name)
But fear not, there is a plan, financially sponsored in great part (50%) by a grant from the RATs ( Rich American Taxpayers) to turn the now Dead Sea into something called The Red Dead Sea.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/dead-sea-dying-1-5-billion-plan-aims-resurrect-it-n926066


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## RollingAcres

Hmmm don't we have other more important things in life to worry about? Like saving a chicken and her sisters from being murdered for human consumption...


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## greybeard




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## RollingAcres

Dr. House is in the house!


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## mystang89

So they take from the Red Sea, give to the Dead Sea. Ok. Then they say the Dead Sea is receding because of all the dams and diverting of the rivers which feed it and they have no intention of stopping this..... Wouldn't it be logical to think that they will be in the same situation they are in now down the road? Like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound if you ask me.

Also a quote from one of their elected officials, "Saving the Dead Sea is the responsibility of the entire world."
Wait, wut? I didn't make your problem. You did. You deal with it. Going on the logic of this man, if I become obese because of my own fault then it's my neighbors responsibility to pay for me to have liposuction.


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## greybeard

mystang89 said:


> Also a quote from one of their elected officials, "Saving the Dead Sea is the responsibility of the entire world."
> Wait, wut? I didn't make your problem.


Well, the explanation/rationalization for that comment would greatly require us to go into the P&R issues we cannot/will not address on this board.
But, the economic part we can discuss. Every developed and every developing country uses potash and few produce enough for their own needs.

*10 Top Countries for Potash Production*

*Canada*. Mine *production*: 12 million MT. ...
*Russia*. Mine *production*: 7.2 million MT. ...
Belarus. Mine *production*: 6.4 million MT. ...
*China*. Mine *production*: 6.2 million MT. ...
*Germany*. Mine *production*: 2.9 million MT. ...
Israel. Mine *production*: 2.2 million MT. ...
Jordan. Mine *production*: 1.3 million MT. ...
*Chile*. Mine *production*: 1.2 million MT.
*Spain*. Mine production: 680,000 MT
*United States*. Mine production: 480,000 MT
(Mine production takes into account any production method)


Meaning of course, that much of Europe and the rest of the world imports a lot of potash from those 10 countries,  (except those producing countries that produce a lot but use way more than they are capable of producing..like the USA)therefore, it is the users of the potash that bear some of the burden for depleting the water from the Dead Sea.........that's 'their' thinking anyway. (The USA is over 90% IMPORT reliant for potash as of 2017..I do not know how much we import from Jordan, Israel or the Palestinians)


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## mystang89

greybeard said:


> Well, the explanation/rationalization for that comment would greatly require us to go into the P&R issues we cannot/will not address on this board.
> But, the economic part we can discuss. Every developed and every developing country uses potash and few produce enough for their own needs.
> 
> *10 Top Countries for Potash Production*
> 
> *Canada*. Mine *production*: 12 million MT. ...
> *Russia*. Mine *production*: 7.2 million MT. ...
> Belarus. Mine *production*: 6.4 million MT. ...
> *China*. Mine *production*: 6.2 million MT. ...
> *Germany*. Mine *production*: 2.9 million MT. ...
> Israel. Mine *production*: 2.2 million MT. ...
> Jordan. Mine *production*: 1.3 million MT. ...
> *Chile*. Mine *production*: 1.2 million MT.
> *Spain*. Mine production: 680,000 MT
> *United States*. Mine production: 480,000 MT
> (Mine production takes into account any production method)
> 
> 
> Meaning of course, that much of Europe and the rest of the world imports a lot of potash from those 10 countries,  (except those producing countries that produce a lot but use way more than they are capable of producing..like the USA)therefore, it is the users of the potash that bear some of the burden for depleting the water from the Dead Sea.........that's 'their' thinking anyway. (The USA is over 90% IMPORT reliant for potash as of 2017..I do not know how much we import from Jordan, Israel or the Palestinians)
> View attachment 55362



If that was the main source of the depletion of the Dead Sea then I would be inclined to agree however, according to the source himself..."Ali Subah, general secretary of Jordan’s water and irrigation ministry, said the flow of the Jordan River has dropped by more than 90 percent from its recorded peak.  The river has been diverted by Israel upstream, while Syria built dams along the Yarmouk River, substantially cutting off the flow that converges with the Jordan."

Yes, the mining industry is affecting it but if they had water going into the Dead Sea then perhaps there would be water to take out.  On top of which, I'm not sure the economic income they get from exports really justifies the pipe project. We need to take into account the upkeep of such a pipe along with the simple fact that there is ALWAYS some kind of conflict happening in that area which means that the pipe becomes a high value Target, then you have to replace which is more money.

Basically, money could be spent better elsewhere since there are things that can be done on their home front to shore up the damage.


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## greybeard

In The Real World News Today, a solemn tribute........
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/03/672852640/george-h-w-bushs-service-dog-stays-by-his-casket


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## RollingAcres




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## Latestarter




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## Bruce

What are y'all crying for? The man was 94 years old and had a pretty good life all tolled!


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## Latestarter

For the poor dog who no longer has his master.


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## Bruce

Ah, I should have known. Yep the dog doesn't understand such things.


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## RollingAcres

Latestarter said:


> For the poor dog who no longer has his master.


Yes, for that @Bruce


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## greybeard

In the Real World News Today,.........
Dec. 4 is a made-up holiday for one of the most popular desserts. It's National Cookie Day, which is the perfect excuse to search for sweet savings. (It also happens to be National Dice Day and National Sock Day.)

(there are a few places you can get 'free' cookies, but most I wouldn't bother with just for 1 'free' cookie)


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## Bruce

Latestarter said:


> For the poor dog who no longer has his master.


This was discussed with some dog behaviorist guy on the radio. He said dogs are more malleable than people. They can generally adapt to a new human/family in a couple of weeks. Being a trained service dog, it has already likely lived with a breeder family until weaned, a "foster family" to get to training age and possibly with the trainer during training. So GHWB was likely it's 3rd and possibly 4th "human". 

This one will now go work in a hospital setting.


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## B&B Happy goats

I read that Bush only had the service dog for six months.....hope he finds another job


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## Bruce

The radio spot said he will be going to a hospital setting.


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## RollingAcres

greybeard said:


> In the Real World News Today,.........
> Dec. 4 is a made-up holiday for one of the most popular desserts. It's National Cookie Day, which is the perfect excuse to search for sweet savings. (It also happens to be National Dice Day and National Sock Day.)
> 
> (there are a few places you can get 'free' cookies, but most I wouldn't bother with just for 1 'free' cookie)


Did you at least make some more chocolate chip cookies or some other type of cookies?
I didn't make any but I did receive a free box of cookies from a vendor.


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## B&B Happy goats

Bruce said:


> The radio spot said he will be going to a hospital setting.


Good, now he can have a new job....


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## greybeard

RollingAcres said:


> Did you at least make some more chocolate chip cookies or some other type of cookies?
> I didn't make any but I did receive a free box of cookies from a vendor.


No. Made brownies.
(you didn't get a free box of cookies. You got a box of cookies that didn't cost 'you' anything....just like the 'free' bottles of Crown Royal and Jack I used to get from vendors. They all cost someone somewhere...something. There are no free rides.)


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## RollingAcres

greybeard said:


> (you didn't get a free box of cookies. You got a box of cookies that didn't cost 'you' anything....just like the 'free' bottles of Crown Royal and Jack I used to get from vendors. They all cost someone somewhere...something. There are no free rides.)


That's very true.


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## greybeard

In the Real World News this last weekend...an amazing bit of girl's softball scheming, practicing and teamwork payed off to win a championship. The "Hidden Ball Trick" is pretty old, but usually happens with the 1st baseman holding/hiding the ball in his/her glove and tagging the runner at 1st out as soon as they take a leadoff step off the base.

This, took it to a whole different level. 5 different players had to act on this play, to convince the runner at 2nd that the pitcher had overthrown the 2nd baseman and that the ball went out into centerfield, while in reality, the pitcher never even threw the ball to the 2nd baseperson. She hid it in her glove, and the runner, seeing the fielders all scrambling to retrieve the "wild throw" ran for 3rd. The pitcher had the ball concealed in her glove the whole time, ran over and tagged the runner out between 2nd and 3rd base to win the game and the championship.  Imagine the amount of practice involved in getting this down pat and the coaching to decide when to use it. Watch carefully at 0:04, as the catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher...The fielders made this work with their superb acting, chasing a non-existent wild throw. Your eyes will want to watch the action in the field, but keep your focus on the pitcher and the runner. The team on the field had to fool both the runner at 2nd and, the base running coach at 3rd. Flawless.
Good job girls!


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## frustratedearthmother

That's awesome!


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## Mike CHS

That did take some serious planning to pull that off!


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## Bruce

How the heck do you call that play??? It isn't like a quarterback in a huddle telling everyone "OK, we've got to make a hail mary move or we lose. We practiced this, now do it"


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## mystang89

That's pretty amazing getting them all to coordinate affectively like that. I showed it to my wife without telling her what is was about and she couldn't see the trick.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> How the heck do you call that play??? It isn't like a quarterback in a huddle telling everyone "OK, we've got to make a hail mary move or we lose. We practiced this, now do it"


Sign from the pitching coach to the pitcher I would imagine, tho it could also have come from the catcher, relayed to the pitcher and she did some secret something to alert the rest of the team..




It doesn't hurt, that Trine U is an Engineering school..


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## CntryBoy777

What a Thrill!!....those girls, parents, and adults that were there, will always remember and talk about that.....I had a team one year that had some girls that had never played competitive ball and I was working with them to better the high school program....well, we hadn't won a game all year and scoring runs was difficult....we played a team that hadn't won anything either and we were comparable as far as "talent" was concerned....it was the last inning and we were in the field....the tieing run was at 3rd and the winning run was at 1st.....we had 2 outs and I called timeout....I told the pithcher to hit the mitt....the batter wasn't going to swing....but get that ball to the catcher.....the catcher couldn't throw the ball to 2nd on a Good day........but she could sling it to the 1st basegirl, so I told the catcher to throw it straight to her and told the girl at 1st to throw it right back to the catcher....told her to expect contact and block the line.....they pulled it all off and the catcher tagged the girl out at homeplate and we won.....that was a really great feeling....and I think on it from time to time and wonder whatever happened to all the girls that have played for me thru the years....


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## greybeard

A different kind of news and it's not good for a very large % of us here..or anywhere else.
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/22/...ad-tracking-data-collection-privacy-nightmare


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## mystang89

You know, people who wanted to spy on you used to be kind enough to do so clandestinely. Now they are so brazen that they have no need to hide it. I think it's repulsive. You have Edward Snowden who released how the gov was spring on us and it created shockwaves.... For a couple months... Then it became old news. "Yeah, I know the gov uses my personal data but that's ok. It's not like I do anything wrong" that's missing the entire point. This news article is the same thing just in different trappings. 

How free are people who are constantly watched?


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## greybeard

mystang89 said:


> You know, people who wanted to spy on you used to be kind enough to do so clandestinely. Now they are so brazen that they have no need to hide it. I think it's repulsive. You have Edward Snowden who released how the gov was spring on us and it created shockwaves.... For a couple months... Then it became old news. "Yeah, I know the gov uses my personal data but that's ok. It's not like I do anything wrong" that's missing the entire point. This news article is the same thing just in different trappings.
> 
> How free are people who are constantly watched?


but but but, 'we're just tying to make your online experience more tailored to your interests and we can't do it without snooping into what you say, do and watch"...
(of course, the fact it often helps to make someone's  purses and wallets fatter is simply incidental and yes, always remember.."if you're doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about")


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## greybeard

In the Real World news Today...
cows break into brand new house and trash it

This, is mostly the owner's fault for not securing his investment better. (read comments under the pictures)


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## B&B Happy goats

greybeard said:


> In the Real World news Today...
> cows break into brand new house and trash it
> 
> This, is mostly the owner's fault for not securing his investment better. (read comments under the pictures)



Now that was funny.....stupid owners  they deserve that cow $hit for leaving it open.....cattle crime  is on the rise .....they better mooooooove outta town....


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## Bruce

They think it is the cattle guy's fault simply because he owns them?


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> They think it is the cattle guy's fault simply because he owns them?


Depends...they better hope it isn't a free range county or non-herd district.
(In Mt. herd districts,the fencing laws are a little different, but not much.



> At one time, 23 Western states had open range “fence out” laws, but as time passed and more and more of the open prairie was transformed into farms and private residences, most of the West adapted its laws to require livestock producers to “fence in” — keep their cows, horses, sheep and pigs at home on a “closed range.”
> 
> Today only Montana, Wyoming and Colorado maintain the open range system, where if your cow crawls under the fence and ruins the neighbor’s corn — or gets onto the highway and causes an accident — in most cases the livestock owner doesn’t have any legal liability.



https://azdailysun.com/cow-shooting...cle_448bf076-fea5-55c8-baec-5f60c2537c1c.html

On a different discussion board (automobile related) a few years ago, one of the members stated he found his newly built "alternative/self sufficient/survivalist/hobby 'farmer/newage lifestyle" homestead with cows all over it..in Arizona. Was told by the local rancher he would have to put up fences around the homestead and the new age homeowner was in disbelief.
I told him, "Welcome to the real world..you chose to move to and live in a free range state..You may as well learn how to build fence and lots of it. you can fight it but you're going to lose".


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## greybeard

On a personal newsy type note. 



 
Rode with my sister to take our oldest sister to her first (of most likely..many) chemo infusions yesterday. 
On the drip, 4hrs once per week for undetermined length of time going forward. She's a trooper, strong and ready for anything.


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## mystang89

Good of you all to be there for her. She's going to need all the stregnth you can offer her.


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## B&B Happy goats

That is wonderful  that you all went together,  your support  as a family is admirable...wishing her the best


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## Bruce

Same here!


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## greybeard

In the real world news today..........Lufkin Texas.
I really don't know what to say about this, except that someone didn't get their butt whipped enough when younger.
Someone opened a 1/2 gallon tub of sacred Blue Bell ice cream, took a big lick out of it and then put the lid back on and placed it back in the store's freezer while someone video the whole thing. Yuck!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/blue-b...cked-ice-cream-tub-in-viral-video-2019-07-05/ 


(there's a video there..the language is fairly offensive..just read the text of the article if you want to avoid hearing it)


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## mystang89

.... Just...why?


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## Bruce

I wonder if she'll get her butt whipped enough now. Can't put her in jail, she's a juvenile.


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## farmerjan

Someone ought to take some of that ice cream, let a dog or cat pee in it them make her eat it. And I can tell you that the parents ought to be made to suffer some consequences, since she is a juvenile.  Yes it is a prank, and there are worse things/destructive things that they could have done.  But SOMEONE has got to start making an example of bad/thoughtless /inconsiderate/unsanitary/disgusting behavior. She needs more than an a$$ whipping. 
I commend Blue Bell for their diligence.  They will probably be adding the little plastic seal around the edge of the cartons, or something now to stop another STUPID and Disgraceful act by an inconsiderate, immature, thoughtless, spiteful idiot,


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## farmerjan

On another note, what about the 2 earthquakes in Calf.  Sure many of us wish that Calf would just disappear with all the "Democratic Socialists" there.  But the second one was 7.1 and was recorded here in Va at Tech.  There are some good decent people there in the "farming-country" areas.


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## B&B Happy goats

California  will seperate from the mainland , just like Florida will........the earth evolves,
 the idiots FRACKING are not helping mother earth at all....


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## CntryBoy777

There are "forces" far greater than human kind, at work that is destroying the earth....if one's "beliefs" are Bible based, that is...we have to "hold on" just a little bit longer.....


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## greybeard

farmerjan said:


> On another note, what about the 2 earthquakes in Calf.  Sure many of us wish that Calf would just disappear with all the "Democratic Socialists" there.  But the second one was 7.1 and was recorded here in Va at Tech.  There are some good decent people there in the "farming-country" areas.


For perspective, the Richter Scale is logarithmic..it's not a 1 for one increase. Richter is amplitude..what you feel..what the sensors feel. That means for instance, that a quake on a scale of 7.1 is not 1x  more powerful than a 6.1, ...it's 10x as more powerful. So the 7.1 last night was about 7x as more powerful in amplitude than the 6.4 the day before.

There is another scale called the moment magnitude scale that indicates the energy that is released. It's the one scientists use to really find out just how powerful the forces are in the plate movements.


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## farmerjan

Although what you said is still a bit "greek" to me, I did know that there was a "times factor" as the numbers went up.  Meaning that I had heard  what you were explaining @greybeard about how the second 7.1 was alot more powerful than the 6.4 of a couple days before.  Also read that there still could be a more powerful one but most likely they will be smaller aftershocks.  They can keep 'em;  the one we had here in Va several years ago was enough to convince me that I do not like feeling the earth move.  Too weird feeling for me.


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## farmerjan

Wondering how @babsbag  @jumpingthe moon dairy is fairing from the shaking? Is she very close?


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## Mini Horses

Dunno?  Ragdolly reported it at her place.


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## lalabugs

Babsbag is not close. She is 2 1/2 hours north of my sister. My sister did not feel it.

I am 40 miles from Ridgecrest. Where it hit. Ridgecrest has a lot of damage. Thankfully no deaths. The 6.4 was not bad here. Everything shook but we had no damage. Nothing off walls/shelves. The 7.1 hit, different story. It shook hard, knocked everything off counters & shelves. We lost power. Lots of after shocks.
The stores had the most damage locally. Lots of product loss. Ridgecrest is a different story. On facebook the "kern county first responders" has pictures of some of the damage. There is also a video on youtube "ridgecrest albertsons" showing the aftermath. My brother in law lives in Ridgecrest. They were out of town when both hit. We are waiting to hear from them when they get back home. We are praying for everyone affected. My husbands store sent people down to Ridgecrest to help with clean up. Lots of businesses are coming to Ridgecrest to cook for the first responders.


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## Bruce

I can only imagine the carnage at a grocery store with all the cans and glass jars falling to the floor!


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## frustratedearthmother

I can't even imagine the huge mess.  Just saw a news clip showing the absolute chaos.  DH  asked me last night if I'd rather have a hurricane or an earthquake.  My answer - neither!  But, at least I get a warning when a hurricane is on the way.


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## CntryBoy777

Even some thunder will make ya "jump" when it shakes the ground and rattles windows....and going thru a tornado will get your britches "dirty" if they ain't sucked off ya with the vacuum....always had the New Madrid fault on my mind back around Memphis....glad there wasn't anything major while I was there, but couldn't imagine living out there with the circumstances.....I remember the live scenes from the one that hit and collapsed the expressways and people were stranded at one of the major league ballparks....that was really bad....and the broken gas lines ignite fires....terrible...


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## ragdollcatlady

I felt 3 of the bigger strikes at my place, but really just some rolling, no damage here, not particularly rough either. I did fall into the fence as I was walking when the 7.1 hit, but I figured out pretty quick what it was. Here in the valley we aren't right on any actual fault lines so most of the ones we feel are more waves and less hard shakes, if that makes sense? Quakes don't bother me much, but I was born and raised here. I have been in a few big ones and tons of smaller, as I grew up in the bay area. 

I am roughly 200 miles northwest of Ridgecrest. @babsbag is about 350 miles north of me. 

@lalabugs , hope you, your family and friends are all OK!


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## babsbag

No earthquakes felt in my neck of the woods this time. But like @ragdollcatlady I have been in some big ones and some small ones and they honestly don't even faze me. I was living in the Bay Area during the Loma Prieta quake and it rattled pretty good.  At least if my house falls down I know where everything is and I don't have to look for my goat stuck in some tree a mile away.


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## Bruce

Good point Babs. I don't know the stats but I think more people in the USA have died in tornados or hurricanes than earthquakes. And likely a lot more structures decimated by them as well.


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