# Nutritional info on hay



## mlw987m (Dec 7, 2010)

OK, real new on goats, I have two - not dairy, just for pets and I honestly love them to pieces.............Checking for hay for them, they seem to like everything I give them, but is orchard hay the best for them? I bought two bales of hay that looked more like dried straw, and they eat it like candy. But, do I want them as the goat version of 'Supersize me'? Should I search for orchard hay only? Or, does it matter long term nutrition-wise?
Thanks


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## ksalvagno (Dec 7, 2010)

You want your overall hay/feed to be 2:1 calciumhosphorus. Do you have a loose goat mineral out for them to eat? Copper is also important for goats. A lot of people feed grass hay to their goats because of economics. You would have to have the hay analyzed if you wanted to find out the nutritional content of the hay.  You could always give them alfalfa pellets if you need more calcium in their diet. You do want to be careful not to overfeed the goats.


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## mlw987m (Dec 7, 2010)

Thanks. Yes, I have a mineral supplement out for them. They get two cups each of grain a day plus free choice hay. I found someone locally who sells hay, but he said it's a mixed grass type, so I was tossing it around with some other local hay sellers. I only buy two bales at a time, so it's harder to find someone who wants to take the time to sell a few bales. THough, the mixed grass person is actually the only one who told me to come and take a look at his hay! Nice guy, though he said it's only mulch hay, I guess not really good for goats, just for bedding.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 7, 2010)

You still want your hay to be quality hay whether it is grass or alfalfa. The bulk of the goat's diet should be hay/browse/pasture and grain should only be supplement. If your goats aren't used for breeding or milking, you could even potentially get away with not feeding grain. As long as their body condition is good.


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## mlw987m (Dec 8, 2010)

Thank you!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

The Ca thing isn't quite as important when it comes to hay as it is for concentrated feeds..  Goats naturally recycle phosphorus through saliva, and hay requires a lot of saliva -- concentrated feed doesn't.  

Having said that, yeah, I still try to get hay that I know has at least *some* calcium in it..  Alfalfa, clover, and lespedeza are good for calcium, and timothy has a favorable Ca ratio..  

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times...my all-time favorite cold weather hay is clover/timothy.  The timothy is "crunchy" and stemmy, and the stemmier the hay, the more heat it generates, and the clover is going to provide good calcium and is usually in the 16% protein range..  Overall, I'd guesstimate a good clover/timothy hay to be in the  13-14% protein range with a Ca ratio of at least 1:1..  

The best part is that it's usually still sold as "mixed grass" hay because there's no alfalfa in it...which means it's pretty cheap.


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## mlw987m (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> The Ca thing isn't quite as important when it comes to hay as it is for concentrated feeds..  Goats naturally recycle phosphorus through saliva, and hay requires a lot of saliva -- concentrated feed doesn't.
> 
> Having said that, yeah, I still try to get hay that I know has at least *some* calcium in it..  Alfalfa, clover, and lespedeza are good for calcium, and timothy has a favorable Ca ratio..
> 
> ...


WOW - Thank you !!! That's what he's selling!!


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times...my all-time favorite cold weather hay is clover/timothy.


Would clover/timothy be a good hay for pregnant does?  My does get an alfalfa/grass mix.  I read in a couple goatie books and I think I read a post (or maybe multipe posts) on here that said we should consider backing off alfalfa towards the end of gestation.  I'm looking for a good hay to use for the last 4-6 weeks.  I'm such a goat newbie and a completely hay incompetent - I need a little direction.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
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I personally know a goat producer who lost *a bunch* of does to 'milk fever' (hypocalcemia) because he intentionally fed lots of straight-alfalfa hay in late gestation..  What happens is that blood calcium levels get so high from dietary intake that the body sorta forgets how to mobilize calcium from bones, which is how blood calcium is normally balanced.  When the body begins lactating, blood calcium levels fall rapidly and the body has to try and re-learn how to mobilize it from bones...sometimes it can do it in time, sometimes it can't.  

That was high-quality, straight-alfalfa hay he was feeding, though..  But the point is, yes, high levels of dietary calcium fed just before lactation begins *can* cause milk fever.

I wouldn't worry much if it's alfalfa/timothy, though, because it's most likely going to be mostly timothy..  If your alfalfa/grass is half grass or more, I would think that would be fine too..  

If you want, though, you could always feed a less legume-heavy hay for the last couple of weeks to give them a chance to re-learn how to mobilize calcium, just in case their bodies have forgotten, and then switch back to a heavier legume mix in early lactation.  Might be overkill, of course, but it wouldn't necessarily hurt anything.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

mlw987m said:
			
		

> WOW - Thank you !!! That's what he's selling!!


It won't look very good...stemmy and course...the timothy will likely be pale yellow and dry looking...all the clover will be BROWN and ugly.  That's just the nature of clover/timothy, though.  

When it's cold, though, my goats go NUTS for it.  If I happen into a bale that's got a lot of bluegrass or orchard in it (both of which are 'finer' grasses), they'll root through that to get to timothy stems and clover..  Few things in life please me more than throwing timothy/clover hay when it's about 5* outside, then just standing back and listening to the 'crunch crunch crunch' of umpteen goats going to town on "cheap" hay -- and knowing they'll be nice and toasty afterward, not to mention well-fed.


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## mlw987m (Dec 8, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
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Me, Too


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry much if it's alfalfa/timothy, though, because it's most likely going to be mostly timothy..  If your alfalfa/grass is half grass or more, I would think that would be fine too..
> 
> If you want, though, you could always feed a less legume-heavy hay for the last couple of weeks to give them a chance to re-learn how to mobilize calcium, just in case their bodies have forgotten, and then switch back to a heavier legume mix in early lactation.  Might be overkill, of course, but it wouldn't necessarily hurt anything.


Thank you! 

The hay farmer that sold me the two tons of hay said it was approximately 75% alfalfa 25% grass - what kind of grass?  Beats me.  Thing is he could of told me it was premium pure alfalfa and sold me all crabgrass and I wouldn't have had a clue.  I do *see* LOTS of alfalfa leaves all throughout so it's at least SOME% alfalfa.

I think I'll mix up their hay a bit - giving them the alfalfa grass mix in the mornings and perhaps a clover and/or timothy in the evenings.  I'll rest easier knowing it may be a better hay choice for the growing babies over the next two months.

I appreciate your insight!!!

Debbi


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## ksalvagno (Dec 8, 2010)

Clover is a legume just like alfalfa.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 8, 2010)

> Clover is a legume just like alfalfa.


Figures.......

But perhaps it's not as high in calcium???  

Makes me wonder how goats have made it to modern day?  How did you guys ever learn how to care for goats without killing them all?

Reminds me of my mother, after I had my first baby and read EVERYTHING in print on taking care of a newborn.  She told me it was a wonder any of us ever survived - she smoked throughout pregnancy,  put us to sleep on our tummies, and painted our nursery with lead based paint.  And I lived to tell about it..........


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## jodief100 (Dec 8, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> > Clover is a legume just like alfalfa.
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> Figures.......
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Goats made it the same way people have.  A lot more used to die and the strong ones survived.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> > Clover is a legume just like alfalfa.
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> Figures.......
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Not *just* like alfalfa..  I kinda think of it as a "poor man's alfalfa"..  

Alfalfa is usually managed pretty intensively for hay, and it generally cures and bales pretty easily..  Clover?...not so much.  Clover usually either comes up naturally in grass hay fields or is sown in lightly to improve the grass, and it's NOT easy to bale successfully..  Clover cures more slowly, so it's prone to mold when a bunch of it gets baled up together..  Hardly anybody manages for straight clover hay.  Pure clover bales are pretty hard to come by, actually.

I got a few straight clover bales once from a guy who just happened to have had huge, contiguous patches of red clover one year in his grass hayfield.  I knew what they were as soon as I saw them stacked off to the side in his hayloft, so I asked about them and he was eager to do a little show and tell..  He said he had to bale the grass around the clover and let the clover sit an extra day or something like that to fully cure, if I recall.  Probably had 40-50 bales of it stacked off to the side, which he said he was saving for his cattle.  He was proud of that hay, but man...they were the ugliest bales I've ever seen in my life.  Seriously -- pitiful looking.  Poop brown...the entire stack.  Kinda floppy looking, too.  Looked like somebody'd set fire to *real* hay and put it out with a hose.  But since I thought they were as cool as he did, he actually grabbed one and told me to grab another, and we threw a couple in my truck.  

Goats didn't leave a stem nor flowerhead behind when they were done with it, either.  They *loved* it..  No mold.  He did a good job baling it!

Anyway...the point is that you'll generally find a higher quantity of alfalfa in 'alfalfa mix' than you will of clover in a grass mix hay, even if there's quite a bit of clover in it.  What I like is a bale that's about half timothy, maybe 20% clover, and the balance in whatever else...orchard, bluegrass, fescue, weeds, sticks, sycamore leaves, dirt clods, old baseball skins...I don't really care.  I can usually tell by looking at the side, where the baler cuts it to width, to know whether or not it's what I'm looking for..  

Good clover/timothy looks looks like a bunch of sharp stems sticking out with some dark brown streaks mixed in...the dark brown being clover.  If its really spikey and brown-streaky like that...oh yeah...that's the good stuff.    If it's really cold, I've been known to pick through my stack until I find a bale that looks super sharp and streaky and split that one up special for the goaties.  



Jeez...I'm rambling a lot.

Anyway...I don't think you're going to calcium overload anybody with clover/grass mix hay.  Unless someone's intentionally managing for an inconvenient amount of clover -- which is unlikely -- I just don't think there's going to be enough clover in an average bale to be problematic in terms of milk fever.



> Makes me wonder how goats have made it to modern day?  How did you guys ever learn how to care for goats without killing them all?


I've killed a few.  



> Reminds me of my mother, after I had my first baby and read EVERYTHING in print on taking care of a newborn.  She told me it was a wonder any of us ever survived - she smoked throughout pregnancy,  put us to sleep on our tummies, and painted our nursery with lead based paint.  And I lived to tell about it..........


Lots of kids didn't, though.  Lots more than today, anyhow..

The question then becomes...where, in all this research, do you hit the point of diminishing returns?  I mean, if a person could read 10% of what's out there and gain an understanding of, say, 90% of what they *really need* to understand, is it really worth reading the other 90% to gain an understanding of that final 10%?

Probably not.  

If I were "normal," I wouldn't, but I'm not normal...and part of my not-normalness is a gift/curse for "special interests."  I enjoy this stuff, but a big part of my enjoyment is because it satisfies what some might deem to be a compulsion.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 8, 2010)

The trick then becomes figuring out which 10% to read.  And I'm so worried I might miss the correct 10% that I have to read 100% so that I can then sit, with my eye twitching and my brain hurting, trying to figure out which is the 90% to call crap.

Then, because I've spent ALL my time researching what I should do, I have no time left to implement what I've learned.  There have been times where I have spent hours on end trying to figure out the healthiest way to feed my family, soak my grains, grind my own flour, etc, etc, only to realize it's way past dinner time, nothings been taken out of the freezer and I end up ordering a pizza.  

I do appreciate the info, I will look for a few bales of something to alternate with the alfalfa hay just to be on the safe side.  The variety is likely better for them anyway.

Thanks,
Debbi


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## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I do appreciate the info, I will look for a few bales of something to alternate with the alfalfa hay just to be on the safe side.  The variety is likely better for them anyway.


I *really* hate to say this, but alternating probably isn't a good idea. 



They kinda need the same ol' same ol', since their digestion is pretty much dependent on having a little ecosystem of bacteria in their rumens..  If you shift around too much, the bacteria can't adjust and you're liable to end up with what's known as a "dietary scour."

I'm *really, really* sorry to say that...if I didn't know what it's like to want to rip my hair out over a bunch of stupid goats, it might be comical...but...yeah...I know.

:/


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## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 9, 2010)

In my area we have a University Coop Extn that will test your hay and give you the info of whats in it.  Its free here.  We have alot of dairy producers here and they want all the info they can get.  

We have nicknamed our own state "cow hampshire"  cuz when you get to the farmland in NH..you will always see dairy cows!!  :bun  (and yes..they dance just like this  )  

I use timothy/clover mix...and never had issues        I buy 1st and 2nd cut and mix the bales in the manger.

And again...as was said...we hope we are getting what we pay for...cuz you can look at it and hope your getting what you asked for..but unless its tested we really wont know for certain what the make up really is.  
At least I cant anyway.


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## mlw987m (Dec 9, 2010)

So, to sum it up, I can use a clover/mixed grass hay in the winter, then back to the timothy mix in the spring? Wow, so much to learn, so few goats............


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## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 9, 2010)

Personally I use timothy/clover....timothy is stemier...and you want that!

And as stated I dont think the mix is enough to cause problems.  

Anything straight may not be the way you wanna go...I always mix my hay in the manger...I buy 1st and 2nd cut and mix it.  And the 1st will always have a bit of alfalfa mix in it...

2nd cut is a very grassey...so..I want them to have a stemie 1st cut too. Especially in the winter.  

Dont panic to much over the hay...if you were running a 300 head dairy production herd...than you would be testing the hay often etc for exact nutrients.  Its important its clean hay.. thats not moldy..and is dry!  

Its kinda hard for a backyard herdsman to be that percise with the nurtient values in the hay unless tested.  So buying a mix is good so you dont get too much of one thing..thats my opinion anyway.     

I would recomend a mix...if you bought straight alfalfa...then buy some timothy or grassey second cut and mix it.  

Important...as with any change in goats feed..gradual..what I do is mix the new purchased hay with the stuff they have left so the sudden change dos'nt upset thier tummies!!   

Good Luck with all that information!!!    Now run with it and go buy some hay!!!     Just kidding!!! 

Sometimes things do get overwhelming when it comes to goaties...but remeber goats have been around for a long time..and many differant farmers have differant practices and they do it becuase it works for them...so take it all in and make decisions on what best works for you...


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