# Where did this little guy come from?



## Lorelai (Feb 28, 2011)

Okay - here's what we know. Papa rabbit is purebred Californian. Mama rabbit is a bit more questionable - NZ/FG cross of some sort. She's black all over. This is our second litter from her, and we expected black babies, and white ones with Cali markings. And then this little guy turned up:












Any guesses about possible parentage? Regardless, it's cute. Thanks!


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## rabbitlady4433 (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't know enough about breeds to even have an opinion, but what a cutie!


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## cattlecait (Feb 28, 2011)

Er...I think someone snuck a Cinnamon into the nest box!


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## dbunni (Feb 28, 2011)

Cute tort!


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## Lorelai (Feb 28, 2011)

Cinnamon? Tort? Translation please! What does that mean?


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## therealsilkiechick (Mar 1, 2011)

by Cinnamon i think they were refering to the breed. tort is what color ur baby is but i don't think any of those breeds have tort as a standard color for the breeds. i've never seen or heard of them comeing in that color before. my guess is momma is more mixed than u thought she was and there is another breed in there u don't know about...... it is a cutie!!


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## tortoise (Mar 1, 2011)

It's a blue tortoiseshell. 

The D gene is dense (black or chocolate) versus dilute (blue or lilac).

This kit shows that doe's genotype for the D gene is Dd.

Tortoiseshell pattern is on the E gene (extension).  Tortoiseshell is ee.  This is recessive demonstrating that doe and buck are both Ee.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 1, 2011)

Lorelai, the color of your bunny is tort. There is a commercial-type breed called the Cinnamon, that only comes in that color, but there are plenty of other ways of getting the genetic combination that results in that color without having to breed to a Cinnamon to get there. Sorry to disagree with you, tortoise, but I don't think this bunny is a blue tort. IMO, that nose looks too black for it to be a dilute. 

The critical genes involved in producing tort are the self (aa) and non-extension (ee) genes. "Self" means that it doesn't have either agouti or tan patterning. Californians aren't supposed to have agouti markings on their noses or ears, and the bottoms of their tails are supposed to be black, so they are considered selfs. The doe is black, which is (obviously) a self color. Nothing odd about that; Flemish can have the self gene, as do a lot of NZ's (as in, New Zealand Blacks). That this bunny got self genes is in no way remarkable. 

The puzzler is the non-extension gene. New Zealand reds have non-extension genes; there are non-extension colors in the Flemish standard too, so that the doe carries a non-extension gene is not really surprising. However, the non-extension gene is fully recessive, which means that the rabbit has to get it from both parents for you to see it. As tortoise said, the kit has it, so the buck has it; where did the buck get it? Somewhere in this buck's background is an outcross to something other than a Californian. It may be many generations back, but the non-extension gene is not a normal thing for a Californian to be carrying (non-extension himi's would be pretty washed-out looking on the points, so it wouldn't be a desirable thing to have in your lines).


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## Lorelai (Mar 1, 2011)

After reading this, it's sounds like it's a really good thing we're not breeding for show bunnies! So our Cali is not purebred after all, even if the cross is many generations back - sad, as he's our only buck who likes the ladies! Our NZW buck is totally uninterested, even after two months of strict diet and multiple tests. We knew mama rabbit's genetics were pretty questionable; she's a good producer for us, but we won't keep her genetics in our herd when the time comes. 

I'm not gonna lie, I'm getting attached to the little guy (boyfriend calls him the freaky little mutant bunny, but affectionately)... maybe I will try to sell him as a pet or something. He's just so calm when I pick him up! (And I'm calling him a him because it seems better than an it).


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## cattlecait (Mar 1, 2011)

Sorry, yes, I was referring to Cinnamon as in the breed Cinnamon 

I was being sarcastic, but Cinnamons are essentially big fat tort rabbits. It's definately a black tort. 

I'm throwing a guess out there, but maybe back far away in the bloodline he might possibly potentially in fact have some Cinnamon in him, maybe someone was outcrossing for some body type in their Cinnamons?

Just a thought. Cute baby!


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## terri9630 (Mar 1, 2011)

Lorelai said:
			
		

> After reading this, it's sounds like it's a really good thing we're not breeding for show bunnies! So our Cali is not purebred after all, even if the cross is many generations back - sad, as he's our only buck who likes the ladies! Our NZW buck is totally uninterested, even after two months of strict diet and multiple tests. We knew mama rabbit's genetics were pretty questionable; she's a good producer for us, but we won't keep her genetics in our herd when the time comes.
> 
> I'm not gonna lie, I'm getting attached to the little guy (boyfriend calls him the freaky little mutant bunny, but affectionately)... maybe I will try to sell him as a pet or something. He's just so calm when I pick him up! (And I'm calling him a him because it seems better than an it).


How old is your NZW?  Mine wasn't to interested in the girls until he was almost a year old.   He prefers the does to be held.


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## tortoise (Mar 1, 2011)

Lorelai said:
			
		

> After reading this, it's sounds like it's a really good thing we're not breeding for show bunnies! So our Cali is not purebred after all, even if the cross is many generations back - sad, as he's our only buck who likes the ladies!


That's not completely right.  As long as an outcross is 4 generations removed or more, it is a purebred rabbit.  Breeders cull out mismarks and other DQ's after an outcross.  You can know your buck carries a recessive allele, but if you bred him to a more pure Cali doe who does not carry the allele, you will never see the expression of the recessive allele in their offspring.

If you have a 3 generation pedigree you are good to go for show breeding.  Cull tightly, go to shows and get your hands on the winning rabbits to feel their body type.


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## therealsilkiechick (Mar 1, 2011)

totally agree w/ tortoise i have a friend who had that prob with her ND's but with hers they come out w angora wool. they are darling and look like miniature angoras. hers r purebred w/ 4/5 generation pedigrees and bred to other does they have never produced any mutated ones just the neetherlands. together with this one doe they have thrown at least 3 dwarf angora babies that i have seen. she will not breed the pair together again because of it.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 2, 2011)

therealsilkiechick said:
			
		

> totally agree w/ tortoise i have a friend who had that prob with her ND's but with hers they come out w angora wool. they are darling and look like miniature angoras. hers r purebred w/ 4/5 generation pedigrees and bred to other does they have never produced any mutated ones just the neetherlands. together with this one doe they have thrown at least 3 dwarf angora babies that i have seen. she will not breed the pair together again because of it.


Hmmm, sounds like somebody's ND's have some Jersey Woolies in their backgrounds! Other than a little difference in showable weights, Wooly type is Dwarf type. A Jersey Wooly is essentially a Netherland Dwarf with a French Angora coat. Woolies tend to have problems with a lack of flesh on the back, so if the outcross was done with a purpose in mind, I'm guessing it was to improve type on someone's Woolies. Or, someone might have bred a Wooly and a Dwarf together because they didn't have anything else to breed them to. Either way, the Angora coat is recessive, the only way you would see it is if the rabbit got the gene from both of its parents. 

I had some Holland Lops that did the same thing. The Holland has a longhaired twin called the American Fuzzy Lop. Every once in a while, I'd get a longhaired baby in a litter of Hollands; it didn't take a detective to figure out what was going on! I haven't seen one in a nestbox for several years, but I have also brought in a lot of new bloodlines. I have no idea whether the Angora gene may still be lurking in my Holland lines anymore. Fuzzies are cute, but 5 breeds are enough, I'm not going to add another!


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## dbunni (Mar 2, 2011)

Just to clear up ... AFLs came from HLs ... many lines still carry the long gene.  And many breed for it.  There are a lot of AFLs on the table that are actually HLs and cannot be registered because of this ... Some of the top breeders have done this.  HLs have the gene ... if both parents carry it, oops!  But then, you can get awsome show babies that way too!  Just breed the long to a smooth and you are back on tract... if the smooth is clear of the long gene.  One of the top in our area in AFLs would look for a "fuzzy" HL to work with.  If I remember correctly he even won nationals with a fuzzy holland!  God bless his soul ... It's all in how you play the game.


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## ChickenPotPie (Mar 4, 2011)

Thanks for clearing up the HL/AFL thing, Dbunni.  It's the same way with ND/JW.  NDs do not have _any_ JW in them.  It's just an odd, recessive gene that shows up in them from time to time.  I had a Fuzzy French Lop once.    Cute as can be but not crossed with an Angora...ever.



			
				Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Other than a little difference in showable weights, Wooly type is Dwarf type. A Jersey Wooly is essentially a Netherland Dwarf with a French Angora coat.


Them's fightin' words around the JW tables, Missy.    JWs are most definitely not a ND with wool.  

ND have round heads and extremely short ears.
JW have very blocky, square heads (aka "mugheads").  Their thick ears are longer (sometimes, twice as long) as a ND.  
Note: A fuzzy ND head, even hid by longer fur, is still round.  

Both the ND and JW both have compact body type.  But to say that they are the same, is to say that Dutch, Mini Rex, Mini Lop, Polish, or English Angoras are just NDs with different ear lengths, ear carriage, weights, and fur.  They're not.  They are very different and unique breeds.

ND are posed upright like HL.
JW are posed with a natural, high head mount.  It is very un-natural for a JW to stand up like a ND.  Never mind my avatar.   There's a story behind that.

*BUT*... you are right that JW breeders turn to NDs sometimes to cross into their breeding program to fix a problem.  They're easier to work back to the JW standard from but that project is multi step and not as easy as most think.  It takes patience, culling very hard, and a few years to work out the problems using a ND brings into a JW program.  

People do show Fuzzy NDs as JWs just as they do with Fuzzy Hollands.  The judges know what they are.  No one is fooled.  But if you show a Fuzzy ND, it better have a JW body, head, and wool or it just doesn't do as good.  Sure, I've seen some Fuzzy NDs that, going by JW standards, were darn good "Woolies" but they are very few and far between and, if they didn't have the wool, they would make poor NDs.

And, ahem, back OT.  *blushes*

I'm glad I read this thread - especially the color genetics of it.    When I saw the kit, my mind went to blue tort, too.  It looks to have blue ear lacing, undercoat, and it looks to "clean" to be black tort.   But that nose bothered me.  So, here's my question.  Might that be the beginning of a point from dad?  I have no idea but would love to hear thoughts on that.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 5, 2011)

ChickenPotPie said:
			
		

> I'm glad I read this thread - especially the color genetics of it.    When I saw the kit, my mind went to blue tort, too.  It looks to have blue ear lacing, undercoat, and it looks to "clean" to be black tort.   But that nose bothered me.  So, here's my question.  Might that be the beginning of a point from dad?  I have no idea but would love to hear thoughts on that.


No, the Himi gene (ch) is fully recessive to the full color (C) gene, which this kit must have to have the yellow/orange of the tort. All of the other genes in the C-series take the yellow out of the coat. Besides, look at the color of the eyes. Blue torts have blue-grey eyes; this kit's eyes are the brown of a full-color (D).

I wasn't saying that ND's in general have JW in them, I was saying that the ND's that are throwing longhaired kits have an outcross to a longhair somewhere behind them. (By "longhair," I mean anything with an angora-type coat, whatever its actual length)


> It's just an odd, recessive gene that shows up in them from time to time.


No such thing! Longhaired genes in a shorthaired breed have to come from somewhere, the Wooly seems the best fit with the least change in size and type in this case. In fact, the better the wool on the surprise longhair, the closer the outcross probably was. A good wool coat comes from the input of several genes. If someone has been breeding away from the Angora coat for generations, it is rather unlikely that their breeding animals randomly have all of the right genes together to produce good wool. 

The Fuzzy Lop was the result of a deliberate outcross between a Holland Lop and an Angora. A breeder was trying to get denser coats on his Hollands, and what has a denser coat that a wool breed? The longhaired kits were at first just a by-product of this; it was only later that someone had the idea to create a whole new breed from them. While it is _possible_ that a Fuzzy that pops up in a Holland litter may be the result of Angora genes that have been floating around in Holland lines since this long ago outcross was done (30-plus years ago), it is also possible to hear hoofbeats and see a zebra coming toward you. 

And yeah, I know that "Dem's fightin' woids," but that's because some people have short memories. Check out your breed history. When Bonny Seeley created the Jersey Wooly back in the '70's, she started by crossing a Netherland Dwarf to a French Lop. When the Jersey Wooly was accepted into the ARBA standard, it _was_ a French wooled ND. I've been piddling around with Woolies since not long after that, and I did put Woolies on the table that had round heads and really short ears (and won with them, too!). I once owned a couple of grand-get of the original Mughead (a REW with chocolate genes; boy, did they give me some funky colors!). And c'mon, the posing thing is meaningless; you don't have to look far from a show table to find Dwarfs that you couldn't get to pose "up" if your life depended on it! You can also find Dwarfs with really big, blocky heads, particularly in German lines. The differences between the two breeds are of fairly recent creation and too subtle for anyone but a fancier to spot, other than the wool/normal fur. Give me a break!


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## ChickenPotPie (Mar 5, 2011)

Okay on the color pattern genes.  Got it.

Now, calmate......   I did not mean to offend.  

Yes, of course I know our history. *smacks forehead*  Nancy Hinkston is my best Wooly friend, pattern project partner, and mentor.  She was there before the breed ever was and gives me great history lessons on a regular basis.   The breed has come a long way in 25 yrs.  

I am in the breed and know it.  I know t


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## Bunnylady (Mar 6, 2011)

ChickenPotPie said:
			
		

> Okay on the color pattern genes.  Got it.
> 
> Now, calmate......   I did not mean to offend.
> 
> ...


No offense taken. I know how defensive Wooly breeders can be about their little "fuzzballs." I once had the goal of winning BIS at Nationals with a Wooly - think that would gain them some respect? Now I think maybe I'll just try to win the lottery instead, lol!

Nancy Hinkston - now, there's a name to conjure with in Wooly circles! I had Helen McKie and Kitty Lynch to teach me what to look for in a Wooly. They live clean across the state from me, so I don't see them very often, but we still catch up with each other at shows now and again.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic . . .


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## Lorelai (Mar 6, 2011)

Okay, I'll admit that you all lost me a few posts ago, but I will say that the little guy is definitely developing the little black Cali nose, right alongside his more "traditionally Cali" looking siblings. I'm not sure if that's relevant.

Anyway, regarding our buck (aptly named Romeo), we're just glad he likes the ladies, and sired a big litter his first time on field duty.  I was more interested in what other breeds might be lurking in our mama rabbit besides NZ black and FG...


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## Bunnylady (Mar 7, 2011)

Lorelai said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll admit that you all lost me a few posts ago, but I will say that the little guy is definitely developing the little black Cali nose, right alongside his more "traditionally Cali" looking siblings. I'm not sure if that's relevant.


What you are seeing is just his junior coat coming in. A baby bunny has a rather thin coat to start with; it gets a second coat that comes in a little thicker and with slightly stronger colors at about 6 - 8 weeks. The new coat comes in at the nose first, and works its way back to the tail. Torts have dark faces, just how dark can vary quite a bit. The mask that this kit is developing has everything to do with the fact that he is a tort, and nothing to do with the fact that his dad is a Cali. The tort offspring of two blacks would do just the same. 

Sorry, but there is nothing to deduce from this kit as regards your doe. The genes that create that color could easily have come to her from either the NZ or the FG, so I guess you'll have to keep on wondering!


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## Ozark Daisy (Mar 20, 2011)

Beautiful rabbit.
I can't wait till my doe has hers.


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## Lorelai (Mar 20, 2011)

Ozark Daisy said:
			
		

> Beautiful rabbit.
> I can't wait till my doe has hers.


Thank you! I think he (and we think it really is a he) will be going to live with my family, because we can't bear to process him! I have brothers and sisters who are much younger than I am, who would enjoy having him as a much loved pet, and possibly a future 4H project.


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