# Do herbal wormers actually work?



## Green Acres Farm (Jul 5, 2016)

Do herbal wormers actually work? Maybe just as a preventative? 
I have never used any, but I know some significant goat websites sell them and claim they do...


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## ldawntaylor (Jul 5, 2016)

Welcome to BYH,

If you put herbal dewormers in the search box - under your username at the top of the page - you will find there has been some discussion about that subject.

It seems to be like some of the herbal remedies that people use.  They work for some but not others.

Again welcome,

Lisa


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## mysunwolf (Jul 6, 2016)

We have friends that use herbal wormers for goats (Mollys) and have great success. They also keep their goats in a dry woodlot with plenty of browse. We have not had great success with herbal wormers, except as a preventative in adult animals.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 6, 2016)

To evaluate if these herbal "wormers" work, you really need to do fecals using the McMasters method.

I have had people tell me that is works great and that they have no worm issues because of the magical herbal wormer...Not realizing that having 4 goats, lots of wooded land, and being fed off the ground might have something to do with it.

Unfortunately many get swept in hearing "Natural Wormer" and don't research it, no looking at data, nothing. Glad to see you are looking around! 

I can't tell you how many times I have seen goats severely anemic and on deaths door with owners not realizing something is wrong because the goat is "wormed" weekly. Others having kids dropping dead dropping dead like flies but still think their herbs work.

I DO think that SOME of these herbs do have good properties. But, they still aren't de-wormers. _*Some*_ may inhibit parasite reproduction and feeding. I feed lespedeza to my goats and I have personally seen a reduced parasite load via McMasters fecal test. But it is not a wormer. It coats the parasite- making it hard for the parasite to suck and reproduce. I also can't expect to see results when I only throw a handful to the goats when I think their is a problem. Just doesn't work like that. You just cannot expect to toss some herbs out and then you never will have parasites in your herd.

The hardest thing with these herbal "wormers" is that very little people will continue to run fecals and check for parasite reduction. Most don't know how they work. Honestly- with most people they just have a fantasy that is works but wont look at the facts (or poop, eyelids LOL).

I hear many folks mix up some miracle "wormer" and are sure its the best thing ever... When asked what reduction % they see, or _how_ it works, I never get an answer 

Not trying to sound harsh, I am not anti-herbal at all! I just don't understand why nobody follows thru with the fecals. They are incredibly easy to run and the start-up costs are not bad. Even if you aren't doing an official study, wouldn't you want to see the affects it has on your herd?

If you decide to do this, I encourage you to do so but you still need to run fecals. Keep records, and see how it does in your herd. Just don't get swept away in it all


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## samssimonsays (Jul 6, 2016)

I know people who swear by Molly's herbals. I haven't tried them but Every area is different. Some areas are heavier parasite loads than others.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 6, 2016)

Samantha drawz said:


> I know people who swear by Molly's herbals. I haven't tried them but Every area is different. Some areas are heavier parasite loads than others.


Do you know if they do McMasters EPG counts to monitor reduction?


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## samssimonsays (Jul 6, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Do you know if they do McMasters EPG counts to monitor reduction?


They run their own fecals now but started out bringing them to the vet. We have freezing temps most of the year here... It could very well attribute to the success.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 6, 2016)

Samantha drawz said:


> They run their own fecals now but started out bringing them to the vet. We have freezing temps most of the year here... It could very well attribute to the success.


As long as they are monitoring it and aren't going in blind, that is great!


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## samssimonsays (Jul 7, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> As long as they are monitoring it and aren't going in blind, that is great!


That doesn't account for the stories I have heard of folks loosing animals due to using only herbals and not monitoring them though... Very sad.


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## Silky ma (Jul 7, 2016)

Yes herbals do work but as with any medicine -herbal or man made one cannot forget that you can do just as much harm as good if you do not monitor and keep a close eye on what you are doing. 

Too much of anything can heal or kill.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2016)

I think using the term 'herbal wormer' is too broad. Just like chemical wormers, you have different types that work different ways. They aren't all created equal. That is why its key to know what you are using and _how _it works. If you are buying from someone who is making and selling 'herbal wormer' they need to be able to explain how and why is works, and have a general estimation on what the parasite reduction should be. IMO


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## Epona142 (Jul 7, 2016)

I found them ineffective, after running fecals before and after. Granted, our location is often wet and hot, a virtual paradise for parasites, and we very rarely freeze in winter. These herbal dewormers may be more effective in other climates, but for us, they were not suitable for parasite treatments.


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## cjc (Jul 7, 2016)

I know a lot of dairy farmers use diatomaceous earth as a dewormer. But I believe it is preventative.


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 7, 2016)

Diatamacious Earth is effective on external parasites, but not internal.


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## cjc (Jul 7, 2016)

@Green Acres Farm I am not sure what you mean by that?

http://www.usesfordiatomaceousearth.com/animal-production/

Documented benefits of using food grade diatomaceous earth as a feed supplement for livestock and farm animals include the following:


  Increased general health and appearance
 *Internal parasite control*
  Accelerated growth/development
  Improved weight gain and feed conversion
  Fly control
  Increased production
  No withholding period
  Odour control
I am  talking food grade diatomaceous earth, they have to ingest it


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2016)

I will just stay away when it comes to the DE 
It is not a dewormer. It would be a preventive at most. 

I think I get so upset about it is because I see many goats stunted or even die because people call it a wormer.   

http://www.wormx.info/#!derole/cwb3


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## Epona142 (Jul 7, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Diatamacious Earth is effective on external parasites, but not internal.



I absolutely agree with this statement, and did the before/after fecals to test it. Not only on goats, but also ponies, dogs, and cats. There was absolutely little to no effect on parasite egg numbers using it internally.


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## cjc (Jul 8, 2016)

Many dairies use it in their feed as a preventative. It is not going to cure something that is already there but the idea is that mixing it with their feed will discourage things sticking around. It's like anything herbal, holistic, natural, etc., some people will see results and others will say they saw nothing. But, its not cheap and if dairies are using it, that run on tight margins, there must be some sort of benefits they are seeing from it. In my opinion.


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## Epona142 (Jul 8, 2016)

Being the stock manager at a dairy that produces commercial products, it's true, we certainly all have our own ways of doing things and I think every one of us has little regimens like that that other farms might thumb their noses at.

Like I tell everyone, what works for one farm may not work for another, but it doesn't make it wrong.


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## Latestarter (Jul 8, 2016)

First, DE is not an herb so does it even count as an "herbal" anything? It is however "organic" (used with no additives) as it's nothing more than powdered stone.

The subject (DE) has become almost as "deadly" to a discussion as religion, politics, or gun control... but for the record, and IMHO, based on what I can find/determine... I think, if you really dig, the DE (food grade ONLY) is used in the feed primarily as an anti-caking agent (absorbs moisture/abrasiveness keeps the feed from sticking?) & not to reduce/eliminate/control parasites in the intended consumer of the feed. Secondarily it is used to control the insect population/load in the feed and the associated contamination of the feed by the waste produced by same. It is used for these purposes to NOT pollute/contaminate the feed (intended for internal consumption) as typical pesticides would (harming the intended consumers). By doing these things, it may provide _some_ of the benefits stated on your link, (which just as an aside, is a website created by the producer of the product they are promoting). Could it be that the prevention of insect/waste contamination of the feed and NOT using commercial pesticides to achieve this, may have led to those benefits rather than direct ingestion of the DE?

MANY sites are quick to document that the FDA has determined that (food grade) DE is "safe" when ingested and/or used properly, or that it has been deemed "non-harmful" if ingested or handled/used appropriately.  But, that is NOT the same as stating that it is effective and suggested for use against internal parasites. (Many of these same sites also recommend/strongly suggest the use of a breathing mask while in the presence of DE powder to prevent inhalation)

There is loads of documentation on the uses of DE in a DRY environment to control insects with exoskeletons, their larva and eggs; fleas, flys, bed bugs, roaches, ants, even scorpions and the like because of how it works. (many pest applications using DE as the primary descant ALSO add pyrethrins <from pyrethum flowers natural, or synthetic> to the DE to act as a quick kill mechanism - read labels carefully) When discussed for use against internal parasites however, there are arguments in both courts, and very little actual scientific documentation to prove either as definitive. I have found links to tests proving how effective it was against worms in animals and other tests proving it was useless. There are lots of non-scientific (observations) reports about improvements in all sorts of animals (including humans) when fed DE.

However, since the primary method of it's success is the ability to dry out the intended victim (desiccation), it's use in a wet environment (internal/gut) would eliminate it's primary method of operation. The use of DE for insects is repeatedly stated as inadequate/useless in wet environments. It doesn't work when wet.

http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/degen.html http://cals.arizona.edu/urbanipm/pest_press/2006/september.pdf http://equusmagazine.com/article/diatomaceous-earth-dewormer-15880

I think that if you want to use it and believe that it works in your situation, by all means do so, just back it up with fecal evaluations of effectiveness. Document before and after to show it is actually decreasing/eliminating existing parasite loads rather than just helping prevent those loads in the first place. Because if you don't have a worm load to decrease, it may or may not be the DE that's keeping the parasite bloom from occurring in the first place. So many other factors are involved. As a preventative, how can you honestly/categorically state it's the DE that's preventing the/any increase?   I guess you could do multiple tests over time with/without DE and see if there's any document-able evidence either way... But then who wants to intentionally give their animals/allow them to develop a heavy worm load?


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## Baymule (Jul 8, 2016)

Epona142 said:


> Being the stock manager at a dairy that produces commercial products, it's true, we certainly all have our own ways of doing things and I think every one of us has little regimens like that that other farms might thumb their noses at.
> 
> Like I tell everyone, what works for one farm may not work for another, but it doesn't make it wrong.


I see by your avatar that you are in Madisonville, Tx. @Ferguson K is the manager of Tractor Supply, have you two met?


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## Latestarter (Jul 8, 2016)

This all started because Kate posted a video of their blind goat/mascot visiting her store.


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## Baymule (Jul 8, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> This all started because Kate posted a video of their blind goat/mascot visiting her store.


O-h-h-h-h-h-h-h........._now _I get it. And I watched that video.....Duh!


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## Epona142 (Jul 8, 2016)

Haha yeah - I had obviously signed up here years ago, forgot about it, then was reminded when I noticed that video got a bit of traffic from here and came to see all the nice things people said.  

So glad we have a local TSC now!


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## Southern by choice (Jul 8, 2016)

cjc said:


> Many dairies use it in their feed as a preventative. It is not going to cure something that is already there but the idea is that mixing it with their feed will discourage things sticking around. It's like anything herbal, holistic, natural, etc., some people will see results and others will say they saw nothing. But, its not cheap and if dairies are using it, that run on tight margins, there must be some sort of benefits they are seeing from it. In my opinion.



*The data does NOT support this as being effective on internal parasites. *
The same people that do this research also research other things like lespedeza that is not a dewormer but very effective on parasite control so it is not a big industry trying to make money off of synthetic dewormers.


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## Ferguson K (Jul 8, 2016)

I would have to say that I do not trust DE or organic, natural, herbal wormers. Simply because there's not science behind it. I need documented controlled tests and reports proving fecal egg count went down.

We have a hard enough time with wormers being abused and goats coming up with parasites that nearly can't be beaten.


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 8, 2016)

This is on Tennessee Meat Goat's website:


"There is currently no scientific evidence that any "natural" or "organic" product, including Diatomaceous Earth (DE), is effective against internal parasites in goats. Producers regularly receive "hype" about natural dewormers and should know that in addition to being unproven for effectiveness, these products have the additional drawback of being dangerous because effective and toxic levels are very close. Example: Wormwood is a plant-based "natural" product believed by some to be have deworming properties. However, in order for wormwood to achieve any level approaching effectiveness, the dosage has to be so high that it might kill the goat. Plants protect themselves from pests by producing high levels of toxins. Everything contains chemical compounds. Because a substance has been untouched by human hands does not mean that it is safe. Arsenic is a good example; there are many more. Unlike products made by pharmaceutical companies, "natural," "organic," and "herbal" products are not required to submit to Food and Drug Administration examination for safety or effectiveness, so product composition can and does vary."


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## Baymule (Jul 9, 2016)

Epona142 said:


> Haha yeah - I had obviously signed up here years ago, forgot about it, then was reminded when I noticed that video got a bit of traffic from here and came to see all the nice things people said.
> 
> So glad we have a local TSC now!


Don't you just love TSC!!!! I took my grand daughter to TSC when she was 2-3 years old because she could touch everything and not break anything. I would buy her a bag of jelly belly beans and we sat on the outdoor furniture and ate them. She adored TSC! Talk about great entertainment for toddlers....... and Lowes is another fantastic toddler playground. They can't break anything and for a kid being told NO in stores all the time, TSC and Lowes is pure joyous freedom.


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 11, 2016)

Thanks for the help! I may try Molly's as a preventative, but watch with fecals.
About fecals, do you have to use a McMasters slide? I just bought a microscope and flotation solution, but all the McMasters slides I looked at online were very expensive.


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 11, 2016)

The cheapest I saw was 4 for $60, not including tax/ shipping.


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## Latestarter (Jul 11, 2016)

The only way to get an accurate/actual egg count would be with them... Otherwise it's just guess work that there's; a couple/a few/some/a bunch/too many.


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## GAF (Jul 12, 2016)

That makes we sense. Where do you get yours?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 12, 2016)

We get ours from vet-slides. We ordered the kit, love it and have been using it for years. I believe ours was the $60 kit.
http://www.vetslides.com/paracount-epg-fecal-analysis-kit-with-mcmaster-type-counting-slides

When doing fecals, the McMasters method is very key. It will give the the Egg Per Gram count (EPG). This is the only method that can show how well your wormers work and the reduction %.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 12, 2016)

The slides are heavy duty and will last a very long time. It is well worth the money.


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## Latestarter (Jul 12, 2016)

Compare the $60 expense, to paying a vet that same amount every time they run a fecal for you, and owning livestock (and other animals), that at a minimum would be what? at least twice a year? most likely much more?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 12, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Compare the $60 expense, to paying a vet that same amount every time they run a fecal for you, and owning livestock (and other animals), that at a minimum would be what? at least twice a year? most likely much more?


Exactly! 

It is also nice to have it whenever its needed. Goats love to go down when its a holiday weekend and every vet & lab are closed.  No more waiting on someone else to tell you the results, you will be able to see within 10 minutes!


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## Epona142 (Jul 12, 2016)

Yup - the move to doing our own fecals here made a massive difference in parasite control. It's worth it!


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## Southern by choice (Jul 12, 2016)

We teach it to all our clients and run fecals the day they pick up an animal... that way we all are on the same page. If the clients are local they may bring a fecal back in 4-7 days so we can check for a bloom. If not local we try to find a lab they can go to etc. We stress how important this is. EVEN if a kid is on cocci prevention it may not be enough and a bloom, especially with no symptoms externally can kill.

It saves money in the long run as well. 

Example- We had a goat get some softer poo... for her she is "sensitive" so any change.... and I mean ANY- as in too much orchard in the alfalfa orchard, or too many leaves off the tree etc can cause her to get clumps or soft clumpy semi berry.  
When the next day it was the same we rolled our eyes and gave a sigh.... WAY too foo foo for my farm  

keep in mind any other goat I would have run a fecal right away, but this doe is ... this doe. 

Next day diarrhea! 
Ran fecal immediately. 
She had a 125 EPG count- which means she really has nothing ... so that wasn't it.
No cocci. 

Got worse... ran another fecal next am. Nothin'
Called my vet- Vet  told us to try anti-biotic injections.
Long story short best guess by our vet was maybe bacterial...

Gave anti- biotics and she cleared up.

I share that because many stab in the dark... they would have run to the dewormers and loaded up the goat... or cocci meds etc...
This isn't good at all- is a waste of time and money and the goat is still getting sicker.

My foo foo goat is fine... but has a hoof almost out the door with her foo fooness!


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