# ahh genetics...input please?



## PinkFox (Mar 26, 2012)

so i have a black otter rex buck...i have a 5 gen ped on him thats ALL black otters
and i bred him to my broken Opal rex Doe...i only have 3 gents on her momma and 2 gens on her daddy but shes got black blue, and opal going throguh what i do have.

she had a litter fo 6...i was especting mostly broken castors...

i GOT

2 broken castors
1 broken "black" (im assuming broken black otter)
1 black otter
1 self opal
1 broken opal
(im hoping either of the opals are female)

so if im doing my genetics right (trying to get the hang of it but its a combination of math and french to me lol)  this means somewhere along the line my buck must have dilute and carries for dilute..right?


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Mar 27, 2012)

PinkFox said:
			
		

> so i have a black otter rex buck...i have a 5 gen ped on him thats ALL black otters
> and i bred him to my broken Opal rex Doe...i only have 3 gents on her momma and 2 gens on her daddy but shes got black blue, and opal going throguh what i do have.
> 
> she had a litter fo 6...i was especting mostly broken castors...
> ...


If you got anything other than agouti (castor, opal, etc), your doe carries a (self). If you are sure it's a black and not a black otter, your buck is ata (otter/tan hiding self). 
So for the black otter buck you're probably looking at something like this: at_B_C_Dd_E_  (underscores are unknowns...opal is a blue agouti so he must carry dilute). You probably don't see anything but black otter on his pedigree because none of the other genes had a chance to dominate AND you don't know what color his parents have thrown either. 
Your doe would be something like: AaB_C_dd_E_ (hiding self because the otter gene -at- had a chance to dominate...the A series, in order of dominance, goes A (agouti), at (tan/otter/martin), and a (self)). 
What do you mean by a "self" opal? Opal is agouti, can't be anything else. Are you thinking of a blue otter maybe?
Hope that helped! It's always fun getting a litter of surprises!


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## PinkFox (Mar 27, 2012)

i mean no white..."1" color rather than broken.  sorry still comming to terms with the descriptions. lol.  i know it would realy just be opal...but writing broken opal and then just opal for the other makes my brain angry for some reason.
its very definatly an agouti the under color is a light orangy tan but HEAVILY silver/blue over the top, you can see the lighter color under on the entire body but that blue overlay is very prominent too.

as the fur is starting to come in (there only a week) im fairly certain that the solid black kit is an otter, it has a lighter ring around the eyes and neer the mouth thats not very visible in person but clearer in pictures.  with the broken black one its harder to tell, i think i see a faint light ring around the eye, but its a broken so the markings arnt as clear.

i was mostly suprised at the 2 opal babies lol, wasnt expecting the dilute to show up as it didnt on any of the calculators i played with, but then i didnt account for him carrying the dilute. 
i do know his mother has always had all black otter litters, but has only been exposed to black otter bucks, the breeder was breeding specifically for black otters so was breeding only black otter to black otter.  im actually realy happy with him, i think hes gorgeous, but realy wanted more blue/opal in the rabbitry so have been debating getting a second buck.
i probbaly should anyway so ive got a back up...but bonus that he throws the dilutes! *woot*


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Mar 27, 2012)

Ah, I didn't think about it being a solid!! That actually sort of makes sense! 
Anyway, in lines that are predominantly one color (like all black otters), recessives don't usually pop out. Throw in a new color and tada, you find them! It's a pretty cool thing if it's something you want, like a buck carrying dilute. 
Good luck! Hope your babies are doing well


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## PinkFox (Mar 29, 2012)

Well now theyve got me wondering if there chinchilla instead of Opal...

(ther not even 2 weeks yet lol)  when they were born and up untill about yesterday they both had a distinct light orange/fawn undercolor with a light blue overcast.
But yesterday i noticed that they seemed "lighter" and way too light to be either blue or opal, they look more silver blue than a true blue...
So is chinchilla even possible with a black otter buck and a broken opal doe?!  obviously it must be but none of the calculaters ive played with have ever listed t as a possible outcome...
and ive never seen such light chinchilla colored kits
they both have black lacing on the edges of their ears, and the "solid" colored kit does have some black ticking.

heres some pics.





you can see the 2 in question on the right side of the pic...

the broken baby, whos lighter than the other one,





and the solid baby





and a semi closer pic of the fur...sorry my camera doesnt do well with closeups so this is as good as i could get wihtout it going fuzzy





from what i can tell, base color is dark, then a Wide Band of White, the bun a wide band of a light blue/silver hairs.  on the solid colored kit the shaft is tipped in a very tiny band of black with solid black hairs sparsely mingled too.  on the broken kit only the fur between ears and down the spine have the black tipping, the fur on the sides is not tipped in black.
Belly is white.

so yeah im thinking chin and am now very confused again LOL!

Obviously 
buck is: at_B_C_D_E_enen
Doe is: A_B_C_ddE_Enen

other kits in the litter are
1 Black otter
1 Broken black otter
2 Broken Castor


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Mar 30, 2012)

THEY ARE SO CUTE. I have serious baby envy right now!!! Anyway lol

I think the only thing that would make 2 chins pop up out of a seemingly "chin-less" pedigree on both sides is that at least one carries it. It could be that one of the rabbits carries "c..." which takes all pigment away from the rabbit and is the least dominant gene in the C series. So if just one rabbit has cchd (chin dark) and the other has a c, it would make a chin! The 2 chinchilla genes (light & dark) are both recessive and recessive genes can hide for many many generations. I had a chin pop up out of a chocolate otter and b/o tri cross. I was like...where did you come from....lol. They are cute little guys, looking like they will have good color. I LOVE broken chins...so pretty!!! 
Here's a little info about chins...it's about mini rexes, but the genetics are the same  Chinchilla genetics 
Congrats on your babies!!


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## PinkFox (Mar 30, 2012)

thank you, im realy impressed wiht this girl as a momma and that not broken kit is a JUMBO baby...its always been large and looks like a little sausage next to the others.
So from those pics, not great i know would you say they would be light chin, or dark chin? or possibly blue chin?  or will i have to wait a few more weeks...
i wasnt expecting chin at all and must admit not a clue how to distingush between the different types of chin colors.

Gonna run off and check that link thanks 

this females previous litter was to a broken black and produced broken black, broken "blue" (not sure if they were blue or opal as this was with her previous owner) and 2 "white" (cant be sure if they were REW or simply just Charlies from a broken to a broken.  Bluebell isnt the heaviest marked broken in the world and from what the lady told me the buck was "lightly marked" too. so i assume the "white" were just charlies...
this male hasne been bred before and as i said its always been otter to otter in his bloodlines so its kinda fun to see whats popping up.  got him bred to a black doe sue next week, expecting all black otters and blacks form that but hey, who knows LOL!


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Mar 30, 2012)

I'm not really familiar with the C series, so I'm not sure what's dominant...I do know there's some incomplete dominance going on the series, but that's all I recall off the top of my head lol. I think there's a fair amount of info out there on it too. 
I think it sort of helps to think of chins as other agouti colors...like castor, choc agouti, opal, etc. because all the cchd/cchl is take the orange/red color out. So you can have regular (or black) chins, blue chins, choc chins...etc. Those two both look like regular chins, though. It's such a pretty color! They have awesome patterns too.
Maybe talk to the breeder of the doe and see what the doe's ancestors threw if possible. It helps a lot to see littermates/relatives...you get a much better idea of what both parents carry and what the offspring may carry. It could be that the doe has the c gene and the buck carries chinchilla...it would have almost never had the chance to dominate in his case, so there's very little chance they would know it's there. If she's thrown REW before (and you could be right, could just be a charlie or really lightly marked broken), she def carries the c gene. 
LOL!! Every litter has a little sausage baby!!  I just loved that analogy!!


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## PinkFox (Mar 30, 2012)

thanks, thats a huge help, its difficult to tell from the online pics sometimes!

coolness...the entire litter was starting to stretch thier legs today lol. i checked on them and they all started marching about.
momma came over for ear scritches and just gave me this look like "help" LOL.  shes doing such a good job though.


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## PinkFox (Apr 5, 2012)

well...same black otter buck to a broken black doe has resuleted in 9 healthy kits 4 of which seem to be REW...
blink blink...

so right now im thinking because REW is a cc gene (both parents have to carry right?) that the buck carries for REW and the opal doe is the one that added the chinchilla...and my black doe obviously carries REW too...

so im thinking the Bucks code looks something like this:
at_ B_ Cc D_ E_ enen

the broken opal doe mabe something like this:
A_ B_ Cc(chd) dd E_ Enen

and the black doe something along these lines
aa B_ Cc E_ enen

does that look about right for the results ive seen and can i fill anythign else in there from what ive got so far
I do know that the black doe was from a black self and a broken black

Buck to opal doe =
2 broken castor
1 broken black otter
1 broken chin
1 chin
1 black otter

Buck to black doe =
4 "pink" (REW)
5 "black" (born today so cant yet tell if otters as i just wanted to get a head count without stressing her too much as this is her first litter)


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Apr 5, 2012)

That sounds about right. REWs can pop up almost anywhere, but when you get the chance check to see if they are just lightly marked brokens because that's a possibility too. 
Congrats on such a big litter! Gives you a lot to choose from!!


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## PinkFox (Apr 15, 2012)

definatly REW (or possibly himis? i know points wont show for a couple weeks but there pink eyed)

the older litter...there definatly not standard chinchilla coloration...

im wondering if the color even has a name, ive tried to look up pcitrues of Blue chinchilla (squirrell) online and am not finding much to go by...but
the not broken kit its most obvious on now...his under coat is slate blue.  his next band is White, his next band is a lighter blue followed by a fawn color. theres also dark blue hairs on the ears. but there deinatly not black...
Im callhing them blue chins for now, but to me it seems like there almost an opal chin with the fawn band  i wish my camera was better but ill try and get soem pics. its realy cool and ive decided to keep back one of them to see what i get out of him later down the line.

but where a regular chin would be a more silver and black, these boys are defiatly more blue...their eyes are blue/grey too...

so that would mean daddy would have to carry dilute too right?


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Apr 16, 2012)

Isn't it fun when a bunch of recessives pop out in a litter? LOL!! 

Examples of c(chd)_ rabbits 

c(chl)_  (shaded) rabbits 

Hopefully those two links will help a little bit if you haven't found them already.


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## PinkFox (Apr 16, 2012)

OMG thank you sooo much, thats exactly the kind of page ive been looking for and yup, judging by those pictures they are blue chins! 
im a very "visual" person so being able t see pictues of the colors is realy helpfull but google wasnt comming back with anythign realy solid...that is an awesome site and ive now got it bookmarked.

so yeah looks like daddy carries a dilute...
Will be interesting to see if this other litter ends up being red eyed white or Himi, one of the babies has a slight grey-ish tinge to the nose and very tips of the ears but the other 2 look pure white...but there also only 11 days old today so lol
this younger litter is the same black otter buck to a self black doe.

This gentics stuff is so cunfusing but actually realy kind of fun...kind of like suduko...youve got the basic information, now you have to fill in the missing spots lol.


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## PinkFox (Apr 18, 2012)

well it looks like my REW are actually himilayan/pointed theyve all got little dove grey noses and that same dove grey color is comming through on the feet and ears too.

your right when you said the otter could hide pretty much anything LOL!


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Apr 18, 2012)

LOL, well it's not really the otter that's hiding anything (other than self), it's the C-gene and his all black otter pedigree. 

Ooooooh I bet those little popples are so cute!! You should post more pictures


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## PinkFox (Apr 18, 2012)

so i know for the rew both parents have to at least carry for REW, is it the same for the Himi?

heres that little hint of grey...this was on sunday, MUCH more visable now






and one of her black otter kits





and from the "older" litter

the black otter Doe




(shes going to be a spoilt "little" hosue bunny...shes stilthe smallest of the group, id say shell be lucky to hit 9lbs full grown)

the Blue Chin Buck




(he realy does look like someone glued bunny ears to a chinchilla in this shot)
hes the biggest, hes staying and his new name is "silver" gonna see what he brings me and mabe try him on the show table. hes a BIG boy, wouldnt be suprised if he hits the 10 1/2lb mark like his momma.





Aint he a pretty little Sausage of a bunny! hes a monster.  you can also see his eyes are lighter in this pic, there a slate grey/green color (reminds me of storm clouds)

Broken Blue Chin Buck and Broken Black otter Doe




(these 2 are going to a home together, he is getting "the snip" and they are going to be spoilt rotten kids pets! lol)





(you can kind of see the orangish color on the inside of his ears, thats the color thats on the very tip of most of the blue hair shafts, not enough to give a distinct fawn cast, but enough to see it...it almost reminds me of a blue otter crossed with an opal, but theres a white band on the hair shaft





and this is what it looks like Under lol. not a great pic. but you can see theres no black and that slight fawnish/orangy color cast on the sides...its realy pretty!

Broken Castor Buck




hes a good sized boy and the only one of the group that im not keeping that doesnt have a deposit yet.  shame because he is REALY sweet...definatly PET material)

Broken Castor Doe




My keeper doe from this litter, Strawberry


Momma bluebell (broken opal) and baby broken black otter doe...
I love this pic






k think i flooded you with enough pics lol


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 18, 2012)

So stinkin' cute!!


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Apr 18, 2012)

> k think i flooded you with enough pics lol


LOL No such thing as too many popple pictures 

They are an awesome looking litter!! Loving little Strawberry's face, so sweet!!


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## PinkFox (Apr 23, 2012)

Well my "red eyed whites" are DEFINATLY himis lol.






so
if im going my reading right

in the first litter 
black otter buck x Broken Opal Doe
i got:
2 broken castors (expected)
1 Black otter (expected
1 broken black otter (expected)
2 what im certain is Blue chinchilla

Now i know in order to get the dilute given momma is a diute, my buck MUST be carrying for dilute

And if im understanding my reading...Chinchilla can only express when paired with anything other than a CC...
meaning one bunny has to be Cchd and the other can be Cchd, Cchl, Ch or C_

I KNOW the broken Opal had REW for her previous owner (bred to a broken blac she had broken black, charlies and "white with pink eyes" as the woman put it) so id assume shes Cc, meaning the buck then has to be the one with the Cchd gene right?

So im thinking my Broken Opal Doe looks someting like this:
A_ B_ Cc dd E_ Enen

Now...
then i bred him to my self black doe.
there litter turned out with 5 Black otters and 4 (though we lost 1) Himilayan

so im at a complete loss as to what my black doe and my Otter Bucks codes look like
can you fill in some of the blanks?

Black Doe:
aa B_ C_ D_ E_ enen

Black Otter Buck
at_ B_ C_ Dd E_ enen

the C is REALY throwing me off and im trying to learn but cant seem to wrap my brain around the C...lol
im one of those people who wants to know WHY?


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## crazyturkeydesigns (Apr 23, 2012)

Rabbit Smarties explains self chin 
Three Little Ladies on the C-series 

^^ There's some more detailed info on the C-series, two great articles. 

You'd have to go through a lot of testing to determines who carries what, like does the black otter buck carry "c" or another c gene? Is it the does who carry the chin gene? Hard to say, but we can say one or both carries cchd and/or ch and one or both may carry "c."

Hope that helps a little bit, lol. If only there were a way to test this stuff with certainty!!


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## Bunnylady (Apr 27, 2012)

Question: you have said this buck is a black otter. I'm curious - any possibility that he might actually be a black silver marten? what color is the triangle at the base of his ears?

If the triangle is buff/reddish, he's a black otter. If it's silvery/white, he's a silver marten. Silver marten is basically the same as otter, with  cchd as the most dominant allele in the C series. If he's a silver marten, that would explain how he can have chins with a doe that is known to carry REW, and himis with another doe. For him to sire himis, he _must_ be carrying either a himi allele (ch) or REW (c). 

Every rabbit can only have two alleles in any series, of course. If the broken opal has had REW's, she must be Cc. 

The two odd colored offspring in the broken opals litter do look like chinchillas. The fun thing about the C series, is that C is fully dominant, and c fully recessive, but the alleles in between are expressed to varying degrees, depending on what they are paired with. For example, siamese sable is cchlc, and seal is cchlcchl. The best Chins have cchdcchd. If the two kits are cchdch, their coats would be lighter than the ideal chin, because they would have wider light bands on the hair shafts. A cchdc could have a white underlayer as well, which could result in a really light chin.


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## PinkFox (May 1, 2012)

hes definatly otter, hes red behind the ears


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## PinkFox (Jun 2, 2012)

thought this would be a fun update.
the broken opal doe to the black otter buck (same breeding as last time) that gave me black otters, the diluted chins and the castors...
well i rebred the same pair and this time got
1 black otter
1 broken black otters
1 broken blue chin
3 broken castors
1 "not sure" im thinking possibly broken seal, its Too dark to be chocolate, too light to be Black and has a slight orangish undertone (looks almost like black rabbits do after theyve been in the sun for a day or 2...

itll be interesting to see what that one turns into LOL.
there 10 days old and eyes will be opening soon (i love it when they "get eyeballs" lol.  bluebell is always such a good mother.

unfortunatly i lost both mini rex litters that came this past week, holly whent 3 days early and had 5 all were unsavable, and hazel had 9! babies in the middle of a serious thunderstorm and didnt build a nest at all (despite having materials) we tried to save them but lost all 9   amazed at the litter size though, shes not a "big" mini rex and the bucks a first timer too and they were together once!  aparently hes doing it right lol.
going to breed them both back this week comming hopng they do better second time around.
got another first timer due (standards) (broken black doe to my black otter buck) in about 2 weeks so im a little antsy about that one too...
loving trying to figure out the colors to expect though lol.


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## Bunnylady (Jun 3, 2012)

Your "not sure" may be a self chin. The chinchilla gene removes the yellow/red from the coat, and a little bit of the black as well. On an agouti patterned animal, the black band still looks fairly black. With a tan patterned animal, the Silver Marten looks black until you sit it next to an Otter, then you can see that the black is a bit less intense. The same is true with the self-patterned chin. A self chin looks black, but not quite as black as  the full-color black self.

Seal is not one of the possibilities, because Seal requires two shaded genes. If the buck has had Himi babies with another doe, he MUST have either the Himi gene or the REW gene, so he can't have a Shaded gene (or he'd be a Sable Marten, not a Black Otter). One possibility is that this baby is actually a Siamese Sable. The gene causing Siamese Sable takes a bit more of the black pigment out of the coat than the Chin gene does, resulting in a dark brownish rather than not-quite-so-black color. If that's the case, then the two Chins in the first litter would be Siamese Sable Agoutis rather than Chins.


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## PinkFox (Jun 3, 2012)

coolness, will get some pics when there a little bigger.
it definatly looks black untill you hold it next toeither then balck or broken black otter babies then its the color of dark chcocolate (the food item not the rabbit color choolate obviously)  the past chins and this one sem to be diluted as the tips of each hair shaft are dark slate blue rather than black (so i asume that must mean the bucks carrying a dilute too?)


in unforutnat news i lost my mini rex doe this morning, after her litter of 9 babies in the storm she refused to eat then yesterday stoped drinking, vet ran a blood test bt couldnt feel anything, nothing untowards on the blood test either but she passed away this afternoon from what the vet thinks could have been a retained kit (after 9 she would have been exhausted) or just shere stres to the body...
realy upsetting, its been a bad few weeks for rabbits around here


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## PinkFox (Jun 9, 2012)

the black otter next to the "realy dark chocolate colored one"

right now im calling it a Dark Chocolate
when you look at the baby on its own youd say black...but next to the black otter and the broken black its very obviously not black.  the color continues fully down the hair shaft (not agouti and not "faded" on the tips)

and the whole litter





they were 2 weeks old on 6.7.12
momma is a broken opal, daddy is a black otter...
So would you say dark chocolate is possible?

does previous litters before i got her were with a broken black and she got charlie broken blacks and Ruby eyed whites...
previous litter for me with this buck were that same blue/chin color, black otter and castors and the chins through me off...
this litter she gives me another suprise with this "not quite black" one lol.


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