# new breeder- lost all first and second litters



## nawma (Feb 4, 2013)

I am a new breeder. I started with five NZ does and three NZ bucks. My first try was with Casper and was a disaster as babies were born on day thirty five one day after I removed nesting box thinking she wasn't pregnant. Next time I bred all five does at once.  Casper's litter was fine for about a week and kits were even beginning to get hair. Then one morning all kits were dead. Other four does kindled in same week and all lost their littters within a few days. Then I bred all five does again. Casper was found dead in her nesting box the day she was due to deliver. No signs of any external trauma owr reason for her death. Within a few days other does all delivered between four and six kits. Kits survived for two to three days and then all died within a day or two of each other.

I understand it not being abnormal for first litters to not survive. But is it normal for ALL my second litters to die? Last week I bred four does again telling them all that this is their last shot at being moms. My bucks seem to all be doing their jobs well and all my rabbits appear healthy.

Thought if I posted my procedures you guy's experience might be able to point to something I might be doing wrong. 

I feed once a day with 15% protein pellets . Each rabbit gets a little more than one meadured cup of pellets. In evening I give a treat of a little carrot or celery stick. I use metal nesting boxes with remove able wooden floors which I
replace after each litter. We are in West Texas and our winters are not harsh. Last four weeks have been average of 55-60 degrees in day time and high 30's to low 40's at night.


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## nawma (Feb 4, 2013)

I use a little bit of wood shavings in box with some coastal hay on top. My does have all made beautiful nests. First day the kits are born I checked to make sure no dead kits in box which meant I touched kits to see that they were alive. Second day I felt of each kit to insure bellies were full. They appeared to be full. 

Wind blows a lot here and metal roof of rabbitry makes some noise. But these rabbits have all been in

 this building since Sept of last year so would assume they are accustomed to that noise.

Vet told me to move does to back of rabbitry. I have two rows of five cages each back to back. 20 cages in all. It a flush clean system with washable trays between rows. I was told to keep my does and bucks on separate sides so last week I moved all does to back in top cages and moved bucks to front of system in bottom cages. Same vet told me not to check for dead kits and to just let the does remove any dead kits. Another vet told me that domesticated rabbits are used to human scents and it would not hurt anything for me (their only care giver) to touch the newborn kits.

Am I overfeeding? All my rabbits are large and heavy but not sure they would be considered fat.
All rabbits came from a huge breeding farm and I was assured they all had separate pedigrees although I received no paperwork on them. Breeder will not answer my phone calls or text messages no so that make me suspicious. Is it possible they all have some onherent breeding problem?


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## nawma (Feb 4, 2013)

I breed each doe three consecutive days and count 30 days from first breeding day to put in nesting boxes. Each doe uses the  same nesting box with new wood floor each time. I did not scour metal boxes as they appeared clean after each lost litter and I knew I would use new wood floor each time.

After three unsuccessful litters (if that is what happens this time) would you all replace the does? I will not go back to same breeder again even though they are registered and have good reputation because they are apparently too busy to answer my calls at this point. 

Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 5, 2013)

Sorry to hear about all your problems with your rabbits 

we are new to rabbits ourselves, currently waiting for our 3 does to have babies any day now 

the first thing that comes to my mind is there a possiblity that the rabbits have some type of infection that they are passing on to the babies?  Also could it possible be a genetic problem both does and buck are carrying a lethal gene that is causing the babies to only live so long?

hopefully someone with more knowlegde will post.


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## alsea1 (Feb 5, 2013)

I feed my does and bucks five to six ounces of feed per day.

When I breed a doe I put her in with buck. They breed, I take them out. I do not breed them again the next two days. 

It is strange that they make it a few days and then die.  It may cost you a bit but you may want to see if your vet has the facility to do necropsy so you know what is going on.


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## nawma (Feb 5, 2013)

I will check with my vet to see if she could look at next kits if I loose them again. One of books I read when I was getting ready for my rabbits said to breed three days in a row. But if that is unnecessary  I will certainly stop doing it. Thank you both for your replies. I've got my fingers crossed that this third time will be the charm. But I am already looking at another breeder to replace my does if the unthinkable  happens again. I guess there is a chance I may need new bucks too.


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## secuono (Feb 5, 2013)

Are you using different bucks to each doe, are the bucks not related to each other? 
Try bringing the nests in for the night and day, only bring them out to feed. See if that changes anything.


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## nawma (Feb 5, 2013)

I use all three of my bucks to breed the five (now four) does. I was told they were not kin to each other but I have no paperwork to know for sure. I will try taking the boxes away from the does next time. Would I put them back with the does twice a day? Does the time of day matter?


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## alsea1 (Feb 5, 2013)

The kits are fed once a day by their mother. As to when the one time is I have no clue.

It is a frustrating mystery for sure what is going on.  

Rabbits can be confounding critters.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Feb 5, 2013)

*Sorry your having such a rough time! I haven't had that many problems in the YEARS I have been raising rabbits.

The only time I have ever lost a litter like that is when they got too cold. Is there any chance they aren't warm enough; not enough hair or hay in the nest? (I pack my nestboxes to the top with hay and let the doe tunnel out a nest). Is there a draft? is there water leaking in somewhere making them wet? etc...

That is the first thing I would look at. It would be HIGHLY unlikely that they would all have the same genetic problem. It sounds cultural/ environmental to me. 

Also, I never breed three days in a row, it's just not necessary. I breed my does in the morning and again that same evening. (I make sure the buck "gets" her two to three times each). That's it. I have one doe who regularly gives me 10 kits each time. With all 10 making it to weaning. 

The only other thing I can immediately see is that it doesn't look like they are being fed enough.... this is what I do; about halfway through the pregnancy I start free feeding the does. They get all they can eat until the babies are weaned.

I also leave the nestboxes in from 2 weeks before kindling to when the babies are weaned. Never had a problem.

Hope this helps and you figure out what the problem is!*


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## nawma (Feb 6, 2013)

My does are all 5 days into gestation today. I will definately begin to free feed them. I did free feed them once they kindled and strangely enough none of the does consumed that much food during the two to three days they had live kits.

I did not fill their nesting boxes all the way to the top. All does made a thick nest of hair for their second litters. Two of my does were completely  in the dark about making a nest the first time and threw most of the nesting materials out of their cage. I replaced it and they all pulled hair. The babies were never cold to the touch until the last day when they were gone. The second litters all had full bellies.

The building I have them in is cinder block walls with metal corrugated roofs. Last week when I lost all four of my second litters our temps were 35-45 at night and 60-70 during the day. I have inside thermometer that got down to 45 degrees on average all week. There is a "breathing" in the building but you cannot feel a breeze. Also last week during the period the kits were still alive we had a horrible wind  
storm. A roof blew off a dog pen not far from rabbitry. Could this have scared all four does enough to abandon their litters? If so why would kits die with full bellies?

I was completely prepared when none of my first litters lived. I was even prepared for the possibility that some of second litters might not succeed. I was totally unprepared when one of my does died the night she was to kindle and all four of my other litters died.


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## nawma (Feb 6, 2013)

Forgot to add that everything in rabbitry stays nice and dry. Unfortunately we get an average of 4-5 inches of rain a year around here and we have not had any rain in 2013 yet. I do spray the trays under their pens each day to wash out poop. The rabbits don't seem to care they are used to it and I use a fine stream setting on nozzle that does not spray them. The kits are not effected by this in their nest.

Thank you everyone for your comments. I have learned a lot that I can change to improve the care of my rabbits. Talking to experienced breeders that care about the details of my situation has already proven invaluable to me. 

I will implement all these suggestions, pray for no wind storms, and hope that this third round of kits goes much better.


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## brentr (Feb 6, 2013)

nawma said:
			
		

> I breed each doe three consecutive days and count 30 days from first breeding day to put in nesting boxes.


Not sure it will help with your kit mortality issues, but I would encourage you to reconsider your breeding practice.  Breeding a doe three consecutive days is not a good practice, in my opinion.  Think about it: gestation period is 30-31 days, on average.  If your doe conceives on first breeding, she's got kits 10% through gestation when bred on day 3, and you run the risk of conception on day 3.  When she kindles, now you've got kits being born potentially too early (day 3 conception).

A lot of breeders (and this is my practice) breed a doe through two sessions with the buck in the same day, spaced by about 8-10 hours.  I never breed more 12 hours apart.  If I breed on Saturday morning, for example, and forget/can't breed Saturday evening, then that doe only has one session with the buck. I don't put her back in Sunday morning. Each session with the buck is ~30 mins, or 3-5 successful matings.  I do observe the breeding to make sure mating occurred.  Nest box goes in day 28 after breeding.

If you got your rabbits from a large commercial operation, you likely did get less than "Class A" stock.  They were likely culls for some reason, and it could be breeding/reproductive challenges in their genetic history (not saying they are, but it could be one reason).

Three strikes and you're out is not uncommon for breeders large or small.  You can't afford to have a rabbit that doesn't earn it's way.  Unless you just want pets, you might want to start thinking about replacing any of your stock that fails on litter #3.

I hope your rabbit endeavor has  a positive outcome for you!


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## nawma (Feb 6, 2013)

I agree completely that my breeding three days in a row is NOT the way to do it. I will not do that again. I am looking into other sources for replacement rabbits once I get thru this gestation cycle with my does.

Again I am so grateful for everyone's responses. I feel I have a place to go now where I can get experienced support.  Thank you all.


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## secuono (Feb 6, 2013)

Some rabbits only feed once, all of mine have fed twice or even three times a day. It's best to feed in early morning and right before twilight, when rabbits are naturally most active. 
Also, don't just toss the nest in and walk off. Stick around and make sure the doe doesn't smother them, potty in there, ignore the nest or tear apart the nest. 
They feed them for 30 seconds up to 2min for some.


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## sunshine43 (Feb 6, 2013)

I am sorry for your loss I hope you have better luck this time


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## nawma (Feb 6, 2013)

Thank you secuono. I will try putting the nest in cages in early morning and twilight. Thanks for pointing me in right direction.

Thank you sunshine. I feel like I have a better chance now after all the good advice I received.


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## treeclimber233 (Mar 20, 2013)

I am wondering if a wild animal could get into your building.  You did not mention that it is animal proof.  Could a possum or coon get anywhere near your mothers.  If they get stressed at all they will not take care of the babies.  Since all the babies have died at the same time I would think something is going on that is scareing your rabbits.


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## Citylife (Mar 20, 2013)

nawma said:
			
		

> I breed each doe three consecutive days


Stop breeding them  3 consecutive days!

  Good chance your does are in labor for 3 days and that will take a toll on all kits.  They could easily have kits stuck in uterine horns at different stages of development.  In other words a rabbits gestation is 31 days, so 3 days is 10% of her total gestation time.  That would be like a human getting pregnant and then getting pregnant again in a month and then pregnant again in another month.  Only breed one time, nest box goes in at 27th - 28th day.  You can put the does back in with the male at 10 days, if she starts growling and is obviously not interested get her out of there.  You do not want her to get bred and have that issue.
Also, pregnant does need higher % of protein.  Once kits are born I free feed for at least the first 3 weeks.  

I now see I am not the first to talk of some of these things now that I have read down the page after I wrote the first part.  We are all here to help each other.

Good luck to you.  Hang in there as it does change.


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## nawma (Mar 20, 2013)

Thank you city life. I have changed quite a bit about my care with what I have learned here on this forum. Check out my pics on thread titled "two litters" a bit further down the page. Currently my rabbitry is full of buns!!!


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