# Update on flip-over crisis, doeling is fine now, thanks for the help!



## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

My little doeling was upside-down in the big rubber feed tub that the smaller goats like to curl up in.  I went out about an hour ago, calling as I approached the barn, and the other three came to the gate but not the baby, but I could hear her calling.  I peaked in the window and saw her belly and legs, perfectly still, and she was crying.

Her neck and head were completely to one side, and she was in a puddle of urine and poops, unable to move, and not even struggling.  I thought her neck must be broken.  I picked her up and got her out of the tub, setting her on her feet, and she stood shakily in a crouch, then she shook (imagine how I smell right now....) but mostly just her head and ears, poor little thing.  

I put my hand under her chest to steady her, and half guided and half carried her to her stall so she could be safe while I called the vet.  It took me some time to actually speak to a vet, and was told that she was probably just disoriented and to wait an hour and call back!  Sheesh!  This is why I left that practice years ago.  Usually it was the desk help who would tell me such things.  I returned to this practice after my horse was put down by my wonderful horse vet, who was useless (and outrageously expensive) in my last goat emergency.  This practice is no better, but at least is about 1/4 the cost.  And one of the many vets just got four baby goats, so there is hope.  Of course, she was not in today.

Now the baby is mouthing some hay, she had a couple of pees and a poop, and the pee did not look bloody.  I didn't think to catch some of the urine until she was done, but I got a good look at the stream, and to the eye, it was clear yellow and normal looking.

She is standing and moving about a tiny bit, not so shakey.  I gently palpated her, she tolerated it well, seems to have a sore spot around her lumbar spine and iliac crest (not sure what it is called on a goat) but does not appear to be a bad break, if it is fractured at all.

She is not shaking.  I am.

What do you experts think?  Username?  Helmstead?  Rolling?  Anyone I've forgotten (my brain is addled right now.)


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## Farmer Kitty (Jul 8, 2009)

It sounds, to me, like she had been there for a while and is exhausted. She probably struggled when she fell in but got to tired to fight anymore. I've had heifers get on their sides in the wrong spot and be to tired to fight anymore when we find them. Time to rest and extra TLC is what I would say is needed. 

 for you.


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

Goat cannot be upside down long as it impedes rumen function, much like a horse cannot be down long.

I would give a dose of C/D antitoxin asap along with some vit B complex injection and Probiotics, and baking soda balls.


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## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

She seems better now, not 100%, but no longer looks like she needs to be......given the greatest kindness.....  She is eating some leafy branches I put in her stall and I walked her around the yard and washed some of the urine off her.  She was moving much better, still a bit slow and slightly unsteady.  Me, too.

Boy, they can twist your insides into a tight little pretzel and squeeze all the moisture out of you through your eyes, can't they?


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

While I'm glad she's doing better I must recommend you not skip the C/D antitoxin at minimum...it would be a shame if she were to develop entero.  It's so preventable.


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## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

OK, now I'm confused.....why would I re-vaccinate her for being on her back for an unknown period of time?  Actually, I saw her outside around 1 PM, and I found her at 3:30, so if she flipped or got bonked onto her back into the feed tub, it was 2.5 hours max....a looooooong time, but....vaccinate her?


eta:  I do have some cd&t in the fridge from vaccinating everyone, half a bottle left over....is it ok to use?


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

It's not a vaccination, it's a treatment.  C/D antitoxin is different from what you have which is C/D & T _Toxiod_.  The antitoxin goes to work immediately, and has no residual.

Even vaccinated animals get entero...

Yeah I know, a bit confusing...LOL.


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## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification, but..... why would she need it, she didn't overeat, she was upside down, so probably underate, if anything.  Still don't get it......just did a google search, and still am mystified.

Explain, please?  I wonder if TSC is still open....do they carry it?


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

Entero is overproduction of Clostridial bacteria, which are always present but when they go into hyperdrive they will kill the goat.  The misconception is that the ONLY cause is overeating (the name gets people).  ANY gut slow down from constipation to stress to scours to general illness to being upside down where the motility changes can bring on this overproduction.

SO...you give the antitoxin whenever you FEEL the gut might have been comprimised, regardless of vaccination.  Acidosis?  Give it.  Bloat?  Give it.  Floppy kid?  Give it.  Feed room break in?  Give it.  It will NOT harm if it wasn't needed, but will make the difference if it WAS needed.

Yes, TSC carries C/D antitoxin and all goat owners should have a bottle in their fridge because it always seems when you need it, you can't get it.


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## username taken (Jul 8, 2009)

I have never given the antitoxin (I vaccinate though) simply because it is not available here. However, I know a LOT of US folks use it all the time, and as Kate said it wont hurt. 

Now, what you described is a very normal reaction to getting stuck upside down or on their side - we call it _cast_. Generally after about 5 or 6 hours the prognosis is grim for cast animals, even after you sit them up normally. 

Confusion, belly upsets leading to bloat and/or scours (diarrhea) is common after being cast, you need to keep an eye on her. Your vet was absolutely right about just watching her and calling back a little later, so dont be too quick to judge  perhaps they didnt explain it very well to you

Cast animals can be pretty scary, especially since after a few hours they dont move, and you are convinced they are dead. This morning I walked all the way across the neighbour's paddock convinced one of his ewes was dead (my ram is in there with his ewes mating them), well when I got there I realised she was cast, rolled her over, she stood up, had a piddle and poo and then took off across the paddock doing a funny running jumping wobbling gait!

Your girl should be just fine


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## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks for all the input.  I'm familiar with horses getting cast, not goats.  It never crossed my mind when I found her, I thought her neck was broken when she called but didn't so much as twitch!

UT, would you give the antitoxin if it were available?  I realized that I would not be able to get to TSC before it closed tonight, but I can go first thing tomorrow.

The doeling is bright and cheerful and moving around normally now.  I just checked her a few minutes ago.  There are no signs of bloat...yet.  Now you guys have me back in a panic!


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

Don't panic, it won't do any good LOL (my husband tells me this all the time and I still don't believe him, but it's worth a try).

In the AM, go get the antitoxin so you have it.  At least give her some orally...if you don't want to go full bore and do the injections.  Entero has symptoms to watch for, so read up and keep an eye on her.


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## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

I've given hundreds of injections....to horses.  I did all the goaties IM this spring, so I am comfortable with the idea.  Which is best and how much to give a doeling about 3.5 months old?  Maybe saanen/nubian cross, growing well?  Given IM?


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## Thewife (Jul 8, 2009)

Wow Freemotion, that is scary!
I hope she is ok!

I don't know anything about goats, so I can't help you there!


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## username taken (Jul 8, 2009)

if I were in US, I'd probably give the antitoxin, because a lot of my US friends recommend it and have good results. If I could get it here in Aus, I probably wouldnt use it, because I know I've never had problems with not using it before. Make sense?

Dont panic, chances are she will be fine. Just keep bloat and/or scours quietly in the back of your mind to watch for. 

Dose rate kate will have to give you, I'm no help there


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

If she weighs about 30 lbs, I would do 12 ccs _SQ_ (6 each side) and 12 cc _orally_.  I would do this a couple days in a row now, and continue it if she begins to scour or bloat until the symptoms had passed.

Most of the time I'm dosing 10 lb Nigi kids...and I give them 6 ccs SQ and 6 cc orally as often as every 12 hrs. depending on severity of symptoms.  I've only needed it twice, once for a kid with FKS here and once to help treat a customer's kid...thank goodness it was in the fridge!

It really stinks and doesn't taste good (ask me how I know) so be ready...they don't appreciate the drench.  Just drench it slowly to prevent aspiration.


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## freemotion (Jul 8, 2009)

Oh, I did mean I gave them SubQ injections this spring!  I did IM for another baby buckling...

Are you saying to dose her BOTH with injection AND orally?  It seemed that earlier you suggested one or the other, not both.  And what are baking soda balls?  Something you make?


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## helmstead (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes, correct application is both orally and SQ...but you seemed to be balking so something was better than nothing.  I was unsure if you would be comfortable with the shots 

Baking soda balls you make yourself - paste it up so you can mold it into a ball with water, and feed it to the goat.


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## freemotion (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes, I was balking a bit, I am not one the throw pharmaceuticals at my animals unless absolutely necessary.....or at myself, either.  

For example, certain B vitamins cannot be utilized when injected, they MUST spend some time in the digestive tract, so oral B's are much more useful.  (I work with nutraceuticals and doctors and take courses alongside MD's in this.....B injections are a last resort, if you cannot get them in orally.)

But when necessary, I have no problem giving an injection, I just need to know that it is necessary.  I appreciate your patience in reassuring me in this regard.


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## mully (Jul 9, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Baking soda balls you make yourself - paste it up so you can mold it into a ball with water, and feed it to the goat.


Great idea ...how large do you make the balls and how long will they keep after you make them?


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## helmstead (Jul 9, 2009)

I don't know if the oral rule applies to ruminants the same way it does to single stomached mammals, like us.  The fermentation process changes the effects of so many things...

As far as how long the baking soda balls last, I have NO idea...I make them on an as needed basis.  I would imagine they would dry and crumble pretty quickly.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 10, 2009)

OK, here's what happens...

Clostridium Perfringins is naturally present in the goat's gut.  The goat keeps the numbers in check naturally, and things are fine unless and until _something_ changes and the gut stops working right.

What happens then is that the Cl.Perf. bacteria "blooms" in the gut, and the numbers run out of control.  The waste of the Cl.Perf. bacteria is toxic to the goat, and it will basically cause the goat to scour the lining of the gut...it starts crapping out bloody gut chunks, in other words.  It's called enterotoxemia and it kills very, very quickly..

C/D antitoxin works fast to neutralize the toxin, but it wears off quickly...  If you're giving it for an accute enterotoxemia, you gotta really lay it on'em, early and often, but it's still a precarious situation to say the least.

The key is to administer C/D antitoxin _prophylactically_ whenever you think there's a possibility that the gut stopped working for a while...bloat, for instance...or being flipped upside down for hours...whatever.  The point is to try and avoid the whole "crapping out their innards" scenario...a stitch in time, you might say.

Bear in mind that we're not talking about C/D toxoid vaccine..  The vaccine is the stuff you get in little 20ml bottles for like $4 at tractor supply.  C/D _antitoxin_ at TSC is a 250ml bottle and it's closer to $40.

I went round and round with a vet once who just couldn't get why I'd need C/D antitoxin, after two of our kid goats bloated mildly..  He kept trying to push C/D toxoid or tetanus antitoxin -- didn't even seem to know what C/D antitoxin was!  Never was it harder to find than when I needed it.

So, if you don't have it on hand, get it.  Even if you have to order it and wait a week for delivery only to stick it way back in the fridge and shut the door on it...get it.  You might not be able to find it when you need it.  

Hope this helps..


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## freemotion (Jul 10, 2009)

VERY clear, thank you!!!!!  I still can't get it locally, so I am hoping and praying, and will be putting it in my fridge asap.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 13, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> VERY clear, thank you!!!!!  I still can't get it locally, so I am hoping and praying, and will be putting it in my fridge asap.


Glad I could help.


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## freemotion (Jul 13, 2009)

Well, today is day five, so from what you all have told me, I'd say she is out of the woods now.....thanks!!!  I can rest easy now, until the next crisis!


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## Farmer Kitty (Jul 13, 2009)

Great! I'm glad she came through okay!


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## cmjust0 (Jul 13, 2009)

Yeah, I'd say she's fine now..  Glad to hear it.

It's always something....I've got one at the vet's right now with urinary calculi.


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