# How to move forward with training



## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 19, 2015)

Hello! I have an almost 2 year old Great Pyrenees/Anatolian Shepherd mix that I am hoping you can give me advice on. 
First I must say, I've made a mistake by not getting him in with the stock asap.  But I have faith in him, that he can be trustworthy with the goats in the future, my question is how to get him there... one of our members had an LGD that hated chickens, and now she is a loyal guardian... I believe 'Padre can be this way too!
The other morning, I went out to milk the goats, and I had left Compadre in with one of my does, Cookie, overnight. (I've had him in with them on and off, at various times, supervised and unsupervised.) Both of them seemed calm, which I thought was good on his part! He wasn't in a playful mood, so no chasing goats, etc. I went to tie up Cookie's daughter while I was milking (she was outside the pen), and Compadre came over near us. Cookie must have felt threatened by 'Padre being near her baby, as she came and head-butted 'Padre. He then turned and attacked her. She got one scrape on her side, which I cleaned with Iodine; I think this was from his claw. Other than that, her fur just looked wet. How can I get 'Padre to resist the urge to fight back when one of the goats head-butts him? I _know_ it hurts, as I've been butted before too, but this is so dangerous for the goats! What can I do?
@Southern by choice and @Beekissed, I appreciate reading your posts on how you train your dogs, and Southern, on how LGD's are different from other dogs.  So thank you for that!
Thanks in advance!
BWG


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2015)

Sorry to hear that you had this happen....I have no idea, hopefully others will!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2015)

I will be honest here... dogs not raised with livestock can and often do often go into livestock homes and are great mostly because they need a job. On the other side dogs that have had livestock around but were interfered with in the process of acclimating are much more difficult. 

First- how much time has he been with the goats? Has he been with them then something he did caused you to bring him out away from the goats?
What did you do when he attacked your goat?
What did the goat do?
Where does he live?


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## secuono (Oct 19, 2015)

They should fight back from a violent goat. As long as they don't keep at it, there's no issue. Goat needs to learn to not attack the dog, too easy for them to break dog ribs, legs or even kill them if they hit the dog's skull.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2015)

secuono said:


> They should fight back from a violent goat. As long as they don't keep at it, there's no issue. Goat needs to learn to not attack the dog, too easy for them to break dog ribs, legs or even kill them if they hit the dog's skull.



"Fight back" has many variants.
If a dog is being aggressively charged by a goat then the dog should do one of the following.
*-move away from the goat*
-after "aggressive" hit MAY let out a growl, snarl or a sharp snap
NEVER should the dog put its mouth on the livestock in a manner that is an attack. 
LGD's do NOT fight back by attacking they do what is appropriate in setting boundaries.

I do agree with secouno in the sense that dogs should set boundaries. We have several goats that can be real stupid and 2 dogs will never give a snarl. They do move away which is good but some of the goats chase the dogs . I tell the dogs you can let out a snarl. They won't.

LGD's learn their jobs by submitting to livestock. This starts as young pups. The doe in the posters thread was protecting her kid. This is a dog that has not grown up or been utilized as a LGD so that establishment of trust between goat and dog is not there yet. It is appropriate for a goat to butt a dog to protect its offspring especially since this dog isn't "it's" dog.

Don't know all the details but the dog should have been abruptly corrected. The dog has not learned submission. Dogs  that do not learn submission to their charges should not be trusted with livestock.

Working with your dog will mean you must think and treat him like a mature LGD would treat him. If he were here and being retrained... ALL of my LGD's including the 9 month old pups would be on him in a second and he would be down with teeth on his neck. You do not have teeth like a dog and LOL I sure wouldn't want to see you try to do what a dog would do (picture that)  but the principle is there. It would be a quick to the ground movement and hold by the neck with you "all up in his face".

If you try again- keep a lead on him and any indication of him trying to do anything to the goat yank that lead back til you knock him off his balance and scold him. 

Ruby (Nubian) came from a farm that had lots of dogs and their pyr was certainly no LGD.. she was wild. Ruby was terrified of the LGD's when she came to our farm. She also came at a time we had 5month old pups with our adults... 30 days in quarantine where she was right on the fenceline the dogs would lay up against it. When she was finally turned out to the field she was scared- She would butt the dogs if they got too close. They would just move away- which was appropriate- it didn't take long and Ruby was in love with them. Now Ruby spends all her time with the dogs she now thinks she is one.

If the dogs would have attacked her because she was butting them then there would never be trust.  Allowing bad behaviors from a LGD will escalate. 

Remember you have the dogs FOR the livestock.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 19, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> Sorry to hear that you had this happen....I have no idea, hopefully others will!


 Thank you Hens and Roos!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 19, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I will be honest here... dogs not raised with livestock can and often do often go into livestock homes and are great mostly because they need a job. On the other side dogs that have had livestock around but were interfered with in the process of acclimating are much more difficult.
> 
> First- how much time has he been with the goats? Has he been with them then something he did caused you to bring him out away from the goats?
> What did you do when he attacked your goat?
> ...


Hi Southern,
He has been with the goats a few times; usually only for a couple of minutes or more while I can watch him. I did have him in with another doe, Basil, before, until he started chasing her. Then he's been with Basil again more recently, but I've found her outside of her pen in the morning, so I don't know if he was still chasing her? (She's scared of dogs though, so he may not have.) I've practiced mostly with him being with Cookie, so I tried the two of them together. 
When Compadre attacked the goat, I climbed over the fence and took him off of her. I scolded him (I don't remember if I downed him though), and then ignored him for a while, as a "punishment". I got that idea because I've read where it's not the same for each dog, and sometimes the corrections themselves didn't work. (One member took the dog away from him flock, and that fixed the problem; with Compadre, I thought maybe removing my attention from him might help.)
Cookie, after I got 'Padre off of her, just stood there I think; I eventually took her outside of the pen until I was ready to milk her.
Compadre has been living in a doghouse/kennel with animals in various places around him, and then lately I've had him in the smaller girl goat pen at night. During the day he's been tied out near the goat pens, but he cannot reach the pen.

Thank you secuono for your input as well!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2015)

BlessedWithGoats said:


> but I've found her outside of her pen in the morning, so I don't know if he was still chasing her? (She's scared of dogs though, so he may not have.)


Pretty good indicator



BlessedWithGoats said:


> I've read where it's not the same for each dog, and sometimes the corrections themselves didn't work. (One member took the dog away from him flock, and that fixed the problem; with Compadre, I thought maybe removing my attention from him might help.)


Yes, but you ,ust understand the foundation work was already done and the dog was raised IN with the livestock. Correcting puppy issues. Very different application here. He hasn't been raised with the livestock- there is no bond and therefore there is no lesson being learned. He wouldn't care if he wasn't in with them. Dogs that have been raised with LGD's do hate being separated. It is a method used after the initial training and correction.



BlessedWithGoats said:


> I've had him in the smaller girl goat pen at night.


Then the girls should be locked up so he cannot chase and make them nervous. He is not trustworthy yet and every action that is not appropriate needs to be corrected. Keeping him in the field but separate from the goats where they can lay up by the fence etc is better.  It is a great first step.

How much time does he spend in his kennel? Too much confinement could also be contributing to the issues. If bored and needing to get his energy out then he may just see the goats as something he wants to play with.
 If possible move his Kennel right up against the goats fence.
Small goats are not the best to "correct" an untrained dog... but it's what ya got.
Big more powerful no nonsense goats are great for teaching a large powerful dog.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 19, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Then the girls should be locked up so he cannot chase and make them nervous. He is not trustworthy yet and every action that is not appropriate needs to be corrected. Keeping him in the field but separate from the goats where they can lay up by the fence etc is better. It is a great first step.


 Okay! Thank you! I think I can make it so that they are separated by a cattle panel; separated, yet still right next to each other!


Southern by choice said:


> How much time does he spend in his kennel? Too much confinement could also be contributing to the issues. If bored and needing to get his energy out then he may just see the goats as something he wants to play with.


 He has often only been spending the night in his kennel; usually during the day he is out on his run, where he can run if he wants to, and he can often see the goats (unless I have them grazing where he cannot see them).


Southern by choice said:


> Small goats are not the best to "correct" an untrained dog... but it's what ya got.


The biggest goat that I have is either Basil or Ashton; probably Ashton. He is an Alpine/Oberhasli mix... would it be best to train him with a goat that is scared of him, or one that will try to head-butt him occasionally? And boy or girl goat, would that make a difference? I'd prefer not to use the boys if possible, since that is way too close to my milking station...  The other two does that I could use are Alpine/Saanen and Alpine/Saanen/Nubian... both are medium sized, but would be more likely to correct him than Basil would.

So when I get him right next to the goats, should I additionally work on having him in with one or two of them, but only when I'm watching him? Or is just having him near them what I need to do for now?


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## secuono (Oct 19, 2015)

How is a goat supposed to know that a growl or snap is a warning if it never experienced the next stages of it? Goats don't speak dog, they learn it over time.
It's like assuming someone knows that a dog may bite based on posture alone. Which we all know, most people have zero idea on body language of dogs, some even ignore growls and teeth showing! =0

If a dog needs to touch with his teeth to get the point across, then so be it. They should not, though, keep at it, chew, draw blood, chase down and otherwise continue their correction of the goat. 

I've had sheep that ignored my adult's posturing, growling and then snapping. So dog went to the next step of a well placed bite. Worked like a charm, they all started to better pay attention to the dog's warnings. 
The same dog lets lambs jump on her, rub their heads on her, adults pawing her to move out of their way, allows lambs to sniff her food, etc. 
Dog knows when she needs to use more force or no force or simply step between lambs being too rough with each other. 

If your dog doesn't go through the steps and always goes right for serious aggression and beyond, then it should be corrected to let the dog know it went too far and to take it down a notch or two. 

Most of an LGDs knowledge and actions is from instincts, but not all of it. Most need some assistance or guidance at some point.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2015)

secuono said:


> How is a goat supposed to know that a growl or snap is a warning if it never experienced the next stages of it? Goats don't speak dog, they learn it over time.


Most goats do speak dog in a way. I have trained many many dogs and never had to have one "attack" a goat. Same way goats learn the different barks a LGD makes. One kind of bark and the goats never lift their head, another bark and the goats look up and freeze, another bark and they run like the wind to the barn. Dogs will move goats in seconds to where they want them for safety. This is where that bond comes in.



secuono said:


> If a dog needs to touch with his teeth to get the point across, then so be it. They should not, though, keep at it, chew, draw blood, chase down and otherwise continue their correction of the goat.


I do see what you are saying I was under the impression you literally meant "attack" - which I don't think you are saying.  I try  to be careful with anyone asking that may be "new" as that work "attack" an be taken quite literally and often is.  If a dog has to go further where by lunging at but NEVER actually biting then that is acceptable in cases where the goat is just flat out stupid and abusive.



secuono said:


> So dog went to the next step of a well placed bite. Worked like a charm, they all started to better pay attention to the dog's warnings.


 By this do you mean actual bite or "hold"? 



secuono said:


> If your dog doesn't go through the steps and always goes right for serious aggression and beyond, then it should be corrected to let the dog know it went too far and to take it down a notch or two.



Absolutely agree.
The posters dog however isn't a LGD at this point and really hasn't ever bonded or understood these were its charges. When a doe is protecting her young she has the right to butt especially when the dog is not it's guardian.

From the posts the poster is trying to introduce and acclimate the dog to the livestock. So there is no trust there the goat is doing what it should really.

BWG- Having him alongside the goats as much as you can and you having him in as much as you are able- under supervision- is best.
If he is chasing a lunge lead works great as a start. 
Do not put him in with goats that easily run from him. That increases his desire to chase. Goats that are scared is not a good idea as he must learn. A  strong goat that won't tolerate much from him is best.

If possible make sure he has gotten his energy out before you take him in with the goats this will help. If you take him in while he is in his high energy playful time you will really be working against so much and it is setting you both up for failure. 

He will need to learn that the goats are your babies and they are the priority. When you are in make sure you really smother the goats with lots of attention. When he tries to get the attention and acts jealous that is when you let him know- no, get back I am with my goats. Move etc.

Patience will be necessary ... but I think you have that  Make sure to praise him at every opportunity. Everything he does right. Good dog! Keep it simple but praise him. As stubborn as these dogs are they really can be so sensitive. When you praise alot and correct when it is a real correction needed the dog will pay attention.

A mistake many make is so many "No's"- no no no no no no no is all the dog hears- they just tune you out. Understandably so!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 19, 2015)

Thank you @secuono and @Southern by choice!!  I know these dogs are smart, and the dog, goats, and myself all need to learn to trust each other! 
I'll keep working with him Southern, when I'm able to supervise him, and then hopefully get a pen set up for him right against the goat pen! 
He did make me proud of him the other day too though, because he started barking when he saw a blackbird flying past; he hasn't done this of his own accord that I've noticed/remembered before, so I was very pleased with him!  I love this dog, and I believe in him! Thank you!!


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## Beekissed (Oct 20, 2015)

I agree with Southern on all counts.  I also think it would be a good idea to set aside some time each day or several days a week, if you can manage it, wherein you put Compadre in with the goats...any and all goats...and you monitor his behavior, giving correction when needed.   He will never know if he's making a mistake if he isn't given the opportunity to do so and this gives you training opportunities.  

You might need to attach a long line on him for this kind of training~if you have not already trained him to recognize your verbal corrections/cues~ so you can correct him from a distance and do it quickly enough that he equates action with reaction. 

He needs to learn to give space to mother and kid at all times unless there is already a trust relationship established...and sometimes even then.  If at any time that doe shows warning signals that she is not trusting this dog around her young, he needs to be able to recognize that and back off.  Might be a good idea to expose him to the same situation in which he attacked and then seize the moment to train him on it.  Anticipate the goat's actions and his, which should be easier now that you've seen it play out before, so you can correct him before it escalates.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 20, 2015)

Beekissed said:


> I agree with Southern on all counts.  I also think it would be a good idea to set aside some time each day or several days a week, if you can manage it, wherein you put Compadre in with the goats...any and all goats...and you monitor his behavior, giving correction when needed.   He will never know if he's making a mistake if he isn't given the opportunity to do so and this gives you training opportunities.
> 
> You might need to attach a long line on him for this kind of training~if you have not already trained him to recognize your verbal corrections/cues~ so you can correct him from a distance and do it quickly enough that he equates action with reaction.
> 
> He needs to learn to give space to mother and kid at all times unless there is already a trust relationship established...and sometimes even then.  If at any time that doe shows warning signals that she is not trusting this dog around her young, he needs to be able to recognize that and back off.  Might be a good idea to expose him to the same situation in which he attacked and then seize the moment to train him on it.  Anticipate the goat's actions and his, which should be easier now that you've seen it play out before, so you can correct him before it escalates.


Thank You @Beekissed!  Those both sound like good ideas for helping 'Padre to get better behaved around the goats!  I appreciate your advice!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 20, 2015)

'Padre update:
Tonight I put a cattle panel between Cookie's house and 'Padre, so she is inside the house, and he is in the outdoor pen. I stayed with them a few minutes to be able to correct any negative behaviors, but I don't believe I saw any.  Hopefully they do well tonight being near each other.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 26, 2015)

So I had to move pens around again, as I think there were coyotes near the other end of the goat pen... hopefully that will help deter the coyotes!
'Padre's growled and snarled at the goats through the fence a bit, but this morning I was very pleased with him.  When it looked like he was going to go growl at the goats again, I verbally corrected him, and he didn't growl at the goats! 
It gets frustrating when you think he's learning, and then he goes back and does something unacceptable, but as Southern said, this will take patience! I believe in him!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Nov 13, 2015)

Compadre has been staying near the goats, but the last two nights I've let him go back to his doghouse for the night. He still snarls at them through the door that separates them.  I think it's mostly when it comes to food, affection from me, or something else like that,that he feels that the goats are "threatening". He has been responding better to my verbal corrections though... 
I'm having a harder time laying him on his side in that submissive position now for corrections... is there anything I can do alternatively?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 14, 2015)

Well a few throw downs is all it should take so I would not continue.
What is Compadre crossed with? Sorry BWG I cannot remember ...
There are a few things that come to mind but I will pm you.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Nov 14, 2015)

Compadre is Pyr/Toli.  I think half of each, but not sure.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Nov 25, 2015)

Yesterday I went in the goat pen with Compadre. First I had him leashed while I was cleaning out their pen, and then when I was done, I let him off leash. (The goat pen is relatively small by the way.) There were three goats in there with us, which were Cookie, Latte, and Buttercup. Latte's the boss out of those three; at first she stayed away from Padre, but then I think she wanted to go and headbutt him. She kept going over near him, but I wouldn't let her hit him with her horns. She was doing the innocent "I'm just standing here chewing my cud" thing, but I think she had ulterior motives...  Anyway, he didn't growl at them, and they didn't headbutt him. I didn't really give them a chance to. Armed with my squirt bottle, I'd squirt them if they were invading "his" space, or if I thought he might go after them.
I'd really love to have Padre in with the goats by kidding time, which is in April; I'd like to have him there for the winter too, but... we'll see.


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## babsbag (Nov 25, 2015)

Goats can be so mean to the dogs, even when they know each other. I am glad none of my goats have horns. My Female LGD, Sigueme, was getting a drink after a long run and she was getting crowded by about 15 goats. I heard her growl at them, twice. It took her "I am not joking" growl before they would let her drink in peace. Poor girl. I have never heard or seen her go from a growl to a snarl with them but who knows what goes on when I am not there. Most of them time they respect the dogs, but not always.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Nov 25, 2015)

Aww! The dear girl!  Glad everyone was okay, and the goats finally respected Sigueme's space! 
I'm thinking about dehorning my goats, but I'm not sure yet. It would solve a couple of different issues I think, but I like them with their horns too, and that's their "line of defense"... :T


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## babsbag (Nov 25, 2015)

IMO horns are overrated for defense. They can be down right dangerous and have no place in my herd. I did let my boers keep them because they had to have them to be shown and I never knew who my customers were, but now that they boers are gone so are the horns.  A few months ago I put my new nigi buckling in with another LM buckling that hadn't been disbudded as he was freezer bound. Within minutes the LM had hooked the collar of the nigi with a horn and he would have choked to death if I hadn't been there. I also can't imagine the damage the horns could do to my dogs, or to other goats at the feeders. They learn how to use them as weapons, and they need to go.  I have my nigi buckling with horrible scurs and I doeling that I "disbudded" and didn't really that need to be done. But I have done adult goats before and I hate it.

But if the horns were really a defense we wouldn't all be worried about dogs and coyotes; in the long run they do nothing for that kind of protection. JMHO


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## BlessedWithGoats (Nov 25, 2015)

Thanks @babsbag!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 2, 2015)

So today I spent probably about 45 minutes with Compadre, in the goat pen. I thought he behaved pretty well. He did try to go after Cookie one time when she head-butted him, but I had him on a leash, so had better control of him. But other than that I think he did pretty good.


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