# LGD pup killing (& eating) poultry. Help!



## bnoonan (Dec 2, 2011)

I have a 5 month old female Karakachan. She is a great guardian and has already killed (and it would appear eaten) an opossum. She is already doing quite well at scaring off things rustling out in the woods. So I realize it is best to have your pup trained by an adult dog but that is not always possible of course. I do the normal things like walking the perimeter and have her with me while caring for animals. The problem is that she seems to enjoy chasing the occasional chicken that gets frightened and runs/flaps off and it is now ending with her killing the animal. I understand how to discipline her (grab by the scruff, roll her over, NO!, etc.) but the problem is that I cant get my hands on her. When she does something like this I cant get near her. She keeps out of arms reach and if I move quickly it becomes a game to her. She is pretty quick.
So what do I do? House her in the chicken coop for a while? Get an electric collar? Please help!

Brice
N. MS


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## MenagerieMama (Dec 2, 2011)

I'm not familiar with LGD's...but have enough experience with dogs in general.  When you feed the animals, can you put her on a lead/leash to be close to you, so that if she displays aggressiveness towards your chickens (for example) you can correct her in that moment with a corrective tug of the leash?  Is she doing this when your back is turned, or you are somewhere else on the property?? 

I would be interested to see what someone with LGD experience has to say.


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## redtailgal (Dec 2, 2011)

OK, I've trained a lot of dogs in my life.  I've learned to be patient with teaching some things, like sit, heel, leave it etc.  I have also learned that some behaviors need a less than patient approach.  I get rough on dogs that kill without need.  You may be uncomfortable with my advice, and thats ok, I wont be offended.  I have used it more than once, and it has always worked.  Maybe not the first time, but I have never had a dog that I couldnt break of the chicken/duck killing habit.

I will use my hubby's Jack Russel as an example.  The dog's name is Hector.  He was quite vicious with the chickens and I was quite vicious back.

The first chicken he killed........

I scruffed Hector, and SCREAMED "BAD DOG" Right in his face.  By screamed, I mean that I screamed it at the top of my lungs.  I pulled him to his side by his scruff and continued to scream at him until he "bellied up".  Then I tied the chicken to his collar situating it so that it was on his back and would flop upside his head every time he moved.  He wore his chicken all day.

He wouldn't look at a chicken for 3 months. Then,

He killed another chicken.

I did the same thing, scruff and scream until he submitted.  Tied the chicken to his neck.  But this time, everytime I saw him, I yelled at him again. I would grab the chicken's head and Hector's collar and tell him "LOOK AT THIS! you are a bad bad dog".  He wore his chicken until it stunk......with me yelling at him everytime I saw him.  After the chicken was rotten, I had hubby take the chicken off of Hector, and then when i went outside, I completely ignored him.  Hector stayed with me, but for two days I didnt talk to the dog, nor achknowedge him.  Then a chicken approached him.  Hector laid down and showed the chicken his belly.  At this point, I praised him TREMENDOUSLY, giving him kisses and treats and telling him what a good boy he was.  For a couple days after that, we would walk thru the flock, off lead, and i would praise him everytime he was NOT looking at a chicken.  When he did look at a chicken, I went into the SCREAMING "bad dog" fit again.

Since then I have seen chickens go in and steal dog food out of his bowl WHILE HE WAS EATING.  He will leave his bowl and get in his doghouse.

I know it sounds awful.  But it works.

Good luck, whatever route you take.


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## Queen Mum (Dec 2, 2011)

I fully support Redtailgal's approach.  Her suggestions seems extreme,   It is necessary to get the killing under control FAST and furiously.    Otherwise a dog that kills small livestock has no place on a ranch.  

There is very sound reasoning behind the necessity of rapid retraining vs. a soft slow approach and it is based on the neurophysiology and neurodevelopment of a young dogs brain. One of my things is neuropsychology.  That is the study of brain/behavior relationships, i.e. neurophysiology, neurodevelopment and neurochemical responses.  This is a brain behavior issue in a dog.  What RTG is suggesting essentially changes the chemical imprint in your dog's brain. It works this way.  

The behavior your dog is exhibiting is instinctive and based on the predatory/prey fight and flight response.  Because he his young, he hasn't learned a different pattern and so he is learning an inappropriate one.   Unfortunately, dogs are linear thinkers and their linear brains work on chemical signals that become imprinted.   Once an imprint gets started it can become permanent if not corrected immediately and sometimes must be done quite drastically.  

A running prey animal, in this case a chicken triggers a predators (your dog) adrenaline rush,  who instinctively chases the chicken.  He grabs it and kills it.  That imprints the chemical pattern in the dogs brain.   

You need to change the imprint.  If you do NOT get it under control immediately, the next step will be for the imprint to move to other prey that runs, i.e. baby goats or sheep.  

If you want the research behind it, pm me and I would be happy to provide it.


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## Roll farms (Dec 2, 2011)

We put Razor, our 1st LGD pup, in w/ a group of 3 wk old chicks.  Then I'd sit and watch.  
If he so much as looked like he was going to chase / harrass / bother / be interested in them, he got scruffed and yelled at.  (Much as RTG described).
He wasn't left alone w/ them until I was SURE he had the idea.  
He lived surrounded by every variety of fowl for 8 yrs and never harmed any of them.


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## Beekissed (Dec 2, 2011)

And if all else fails...a shock collar.  But then..a smart dog knows when they are wearing them and knows to not act up when wearing. 

 I agree with the extreme, over the top reaction....it works if the dog sees you as the pack leader and doesn't want to see you displeased.

This dog is 5 mo. old..I'm wondering if you have done basic obedience training and the pup has responded?  If so, it shouldn't be too hard to get him to respond to these training methods as well.


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## EllieMay (Dec 2, 2011)

I agree with all the posts above.

The behavior has to be put under control IMMEDIATELY to be most effective to the dog.


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## redtailgal (Dec 2, 2011)

Goodness, I am glad that you all agreed, lol.  i was afraid ya'll would think I was barbaric!


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## MonsterMalak (Dec 2, 2011)

I would have to say that I do agree with all of the above post,,,, The Shock Colar can be an invaluable tool for the dog that thinks you cant get him.

I would advise to try to hide from him when you are correcting him.  Otherwise, he might figure out to only kill when your not home or outside.

Also would like to tell you to not give up.

Many LGD breeds will do this as a pup, but will get over it as an adult.  Got to admit,,, it looks like fun.

The old saying that once they have tasted blood, they are ruined,,, does not hold true for LGDs.  High prey drive dogs,,,, yes.

My Kangals have killed them as pups, or as mothers feeding their pups.  But with some correction, become completely safe with free range fowl.

My Boz have not killed any, but usually will crawl in a hole if I yell at them.  No collar needed YET!


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## peteyfoozer (Dec 15, 2011)

5 mo is pretty immature to leave the pup unsupervised with chickens. My Maremmas thought chickens were squeaky toys at that age. These dogs seem to take a while to mentally mature, but when my dogs were a bit over a year old, another chicken was killed. At that point, I made him lay down inside the coop, while I set chickens on top and let them walk all over him. It mortified him, but it seemed to also cure him. For the past year, he has been an amazing chicken guardian, keeping a close eye on them, raising 20 meaties that free ranged and setting up a no fly zone with the hawks and birds of prey  here. It can be done, but might take some work. Good luck!


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## kstaven (Dec 15, 2011)

It may sound cruel to some but the reality is that what has been suggested here is no different from what would happen in a pack situation when it comes to correction.


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## moshar (Jan 22, 2012)

Shock collar, just make sure you make them wear a regular collar all time as well.  Keeping a collar on the dog at all times makes the og think a correction could come even though you have stopped using the shock collar.  Some people think they are mean but they hurt less than an electric fence and we keep animals in those.  I have held the shock collars on myself and yes they aren't omfortable, but especially with a large breed there will be no harm done and it will correct the bad behavior right now.


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## Dozclan12 (Jan 29, 2014)

I had problems with my Golden R. in the beginning, when she was very young.  Yes, I had to yell..no chickens!  I wouldn't let her out with them until I could be out with her.  A young one had gotten into her area, and yes, she mauled it.  That's when she got yelled at.  That's her in the Avatar.  She is now very good with the chickens.  Took some time for her to be less interested in them, and getting attention from me.   I praised her when she would..." leave it"  one of the commands I've taught her.  Of course,  a great big NO worked as well.  Time, and consistency is the trick.


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## bcnewe2 (Jan 29, 2014)

I have done the same only not as far as tying the dead chicken to the collar. But when I holler NO Jesse plops down on her side quickly. If she looks at any of the farm animals with a shine or quickness in her step she gets a huge NO and falls over.  
I can now correct her with that NO from quite a distance. But you have to realize your correction has to be remembered or seen as bigger than the prey instinct of chasing that moving chicken or lamb.  That's a hard thing to beat or be bigger than.

I have learned that Jesse had to grow up. She can no longer run around like a young pup. When she does that she gets corrected, unless she has separated herself from the other animals. Then I don't say a word.  They are puppies with puppy energy. If they can burn that off away from your animals I have found it really helps.

But poor Jesse was confused for a while with the harder corrections that I had to give.  When I see or walk up to her now, she just sits down and waits for me to tell her what to do.  She has always been a soft dog. But prey instinct is strong so I had to be stronger than that. I knew I was making headway when she all of a sudden became leash trained where before I couldn't get her to walk on a leash come hell or high water.  Thank doG she has never been food aggressive.  She will guard her food from adult sheep but lambs can walk on top of her and she just rolls over food or not.  
They are worth all this training...I swear!


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