# Need some help with Nigerian Dwarf bottle babies



## m700 (Mar 15, 2017)

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## norseofcourse (Mar 15, 2017)

Sorry you're having so much trouble with the little ones.  I have not bottle raised anything yet, so I'll tag a few folks who can hopefully help
@Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer @babsbag @OneFineAcre and hopefully others I can't think of at the moment see this, too

And welcome to Backyard Herds!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 15, 2017)

I saw this right after you posted but did not respond as I don't really know what is a good amount of milk for the small sized goats. All I can tell you is that, when I was sure they were not drinking enough, I insisted they drink if they were weak or let them get hungry if they were alert and active. Hopefully someone else chimes in.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 15, 2017)

First, welcome to BYH! 

How much do these kids weigh? Are they from large litters?
I do think you need to increase each feeding. The kid might have over ate on the 6oz feeding. 
It is normal if they take a lot of milk on the first feeding, they might not want as much on the second feeding. But, the appetite should come back by the third or fourth feeding.
Are these guys in your house? Have you taken their temp?

I would look at giving a B complex injection, this will help stimulate appetite. If you can get JumpStart Plus gel from TSC that might be good too. This year we had a mini kid that was just stubborn. She didn't want to take the bottle, I finally got her on the big, clear nipples from TSC. She didn't have the vigor that her 2 siblings have/had. We gave some B vit (thiamine actually) and she seemed a bit better. I have her on 5oz, 4x a day (not a dwarf). 

I had a set of quads born 10 days ago, these are their birth weights:
1st doe (Dot) 3lb 1oz
2nd doe (Not Dot) 2lb 13oz
3rd doe (Splash) 2lb 9oz
Boy 3lb 5oz

The first few days they were on 2oz every few hours (as they told me when they were hungry LOL). A few days after that they were put on 3oz 4x daily and a late night feeding if they cried for it, sometimes I'd give the big boy some extra if I thought he needed it. Now they are 10 days old and are going to 4oz 4x daily. It's not good that they've haven't eaten in 12 hours, but not critical at this point. You just don't want it to continue.

Are they able to run around and play? Kids that are in dog crates or penned up might not want to eat because they don't use and energy. When we have kids in the house (we have 8 in some large crates due to the cold weather!) we need to let them bounce and play before they eat. This is very important for the larger breeds especially. 

The breeder really should have had them fully trained to a bottle before they were sold. The breeder might not be experienced, but it is not good practice to just sell young kids who haven't been on the bottle.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 15, 2017)

Everything  @Goat Whisperer said but she forgot to mention- sometimes if all conditions are met- playtime, vitamins etc and it is strictly she won't take a bottle you can train her to drink from a bowl. 
Also make sure the milk is very warm VERY! If it is cool or lukewarm they usually don't take it.  Milk cools very quickly in the bottles.

The jumpstart is a real good thing to give.
Not having any background info the kids may be somewhat deficient or birthing issues could have made them weak.

NEVER try to feed any kid if the mouth is cold. If you put your finger in their mouth and it is cold DO NOT FEED. Warm the kid first check mouth and then try to feed.

The doeling may benefit from having some goat drench (available at tsc) rubbed on her gums.


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## m700 (Mar 15, 2017)

The buckling is 4.5 lbs and the doeling is 5.5 lbs. 

They were part of triplets but I only took the two. 

I do think the buckling ate too much yesterday and that is why he is laying off today. 

Yes, they are living in my house. I have them in a pack and play with puppy pads and tons of warm blankets. Then I have a larger puppy pen that offers them room to walk around with puppy pads and blankets. I also take them outside a couple times a day, and bring them around the outer part of my goat paddock (so that they aren't directly in with each other) which seems to comfort them. 

They are acting normal otherwise, running around, hopping, nibbling at the ground.

I took their temps about an hour ago, the boy was 101.6 and the girl was 102.1

I got them both to suck down a couple of sips but nothing major or anything that would make me feel better, it wasn't even a full ounce. 

When I asked the breeder just about how many times and how many ounces should I feed, she told me every four to five times every 3-4 hours but not overnight. Then when I asked how much she told me as much as they want. I was confused, I mean I know as babies they need all they can get but I know overfeeding can be a huge issue. I asked again and she just kept saying just let them eat and eat until they don't want it anymore. So, I never got a definitive amount, that's why when they were only taking about 1-3 ounces each feeding I was freaking out because I was never told how much these types of goats intake. Also, when she told me no overnight feedings and they were only two days when I got them, that concerned me... maybe I'm wrong but I just felt like those tiny little babies needed something overnight, so I was offering it and if they took it I obviously allowed them to have it. 

I had been searching for a buckling to add to my herd for a while, this wasn't just a whim decision. I had done my research and talked to people, but the funny thing is everyone told me "Bottle feeding baby goats is such a joy and so easy, they will be super friendly in the end so it's definitely worth it." No one tells you that it may go downhill and that sometimes it doesn't always work out with the bottle right away. Obviously, I took all that into consideration, just like any animal that you may purchase, but the breeder made me feel super confident that it would go smoothly. Like I said I have bottle fed many puppies, I felt like with my experience in that, that I could handle this. Which I can, it's just been kinda scary and very stressful. 

It was kind of odd to me that she didn't take them off the bottle once she had an inquiry. She listed them on a site saying they were born last night and when I contacted her she told me they were ok to go the next day. So, they were with their mom for 2 days. I assured her that I was very interested and would be coming out to get him, that's why I'm wondering why she didn't take him off mom then and start him on the bottle. If it didn't work out when she tried it, she could have told me he doesn't have the handle of it yet and to wait. I recall every other breeder I talked to telling me that if I was interested to let them know ASAP so they can pull the baby off mom and start them on the bottle for me. 

The boy still hasn't pooped today that I have seen, may have to do an enema as the breeder suggested. I have been using baby wipes to stimulate the area to make him go, no luck today.

Anyway, thank you very much for all the information, it has been very helpful and I will probably be making a run to TSC tonight to try some of those things out.  Breeder told me to wait until 8-9 pm to try and feed again but don't exceed 4 feedings. We'll see how it goes!



Goat Whisperer said:


> First, welcome to BYH!
> 
> How much do these kids weigh? Are they from large litters?
> I do think you need to increase each feeding. The kid might have over ate on the 6oz feeding.
> ...


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## Southern by choice (Mar 15, 2017)

What kind of milk are they on?


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## LocoYokel (Mar 15, 2017)

Hi m700. I've only raised two kids but I would say if they are acting normal you need to relax a bit.  I do know that sometimes bottle babies can get a bit constipated if you mix up their milk too strong. I had that problem with a bummer lamb last spring (my avatar, Marvin). 
If I may make a suggestion... instead of baby wipes find the roughest washcloth or rag, terrycloth type, and use hot tap water to wet it. The cloth will cool some when you shake it out, but make sure it is still warm.  It is much more similar to the mother's actual tongue and will help stimulate them better.  Rinse and repeat.
As Marvin got older this process turned into washing his face, ears and dirty spots. He LOVED bath time!
Best of luck to you, keep us posted!


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## m700 (Mar 15, 2017)

They are on goats milk and whole cows milk mixed in because once I run out I will have them on whole cows milk only. Only because there's no where close enough to me that sell goats milk. I was able to purchase 2 gallons from the breeders friend. Some were frozen I'm just getting to those ones now, I noticed when I heat it up it has a sour smell is this normal? I don't remember that last time I used goats milk. The breeder also said maybe stop putting the cows milk in for now (it's only a tiny bit to help trainsition)

QUOTE="Southern by choice, post: 482947, member: 6771"]What kind of milk are they on?[/QUOTE]


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## m700 (Mar 15, 2017)

That's actually what I was using at first, because they didn't poop the first two days i had them. Then someone said try something less rough because it may be irritating them. I think I should start listening to my gut a bit more LOL. I'm going to start using a wash cloth again. Thanks guys you all have been so helpful!

QUOTE="LocoYokel, post: 482957, member: 15885"]Hi m700. I've only raised two kids but I would say if they are acting normal you need to relax a bit.  I do know that sometimes bottle babies can get a bit constipated if you mix up their milk too strong. I had that problem with a bummer lamb last spring (my avatar, Marvin).
If I may make a suggestion... instead of baby wipes find the roughest washcloth or rag, terrycloth type, and use hot tap water to wet it. The cloth will cool some when you shake it out, but make sure it is still warm.  It is much more similar to the mother's actual tongue and will help stimulate them better.  Rinse and repeat.
As Marvin got older this process turned into washing his face, ears and dirty spots. He LOVED bath time!
Best of luck to you, keep us posted![/QUOTE]


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## LocoYokel (Mar 15, 2017)

I think you should really, REALLY look into a goat milk replacer from the feed store.  Baby goats need goat milk and nothing else. Cow's milk is for baby cows only.  Other types of babies are not born with the proper enzymes to break it down. 
The lady probably left those two on the mom so they could get the colostrum, which is in the first few days of milk supply.  Colostrum carries the needed enzymes to help their gut start working, along with a bunch of antibodies to help the babies fend off illness until they can start making their own.
Baby goats may be different, and I may be all wet on what they can eat and how soon, but you might want to research that some more.

insert my edit here:
(Yep I'm all wet when it comes to cow's milk for baby goats, you got me curious so I looked it up. Sorry  )


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 15, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> I think you should really, REALLY look into a goat milk replacer from the feed store.  Baby goats need goat milk and nothing else. Cow's milk is for baby cows only.  Other types of babies are not born with the proper enzymes to break it down.
> The lady probably left those two on the mom so they could get the colostrum, which is in the first few days of milk supply.  Colostrum carries the needed enzymes to help their gut start working, along with a bunch of antibodies to help the babies fend off illness until they can start making their own.
> Baby goats may be different, and I may be all wet on what they can eat and how soon, but you might want to research that some more.


I have to respectfully disagree. I've seen many time where milk replacer work well for lambs, goats not so much!

I raise 20-30 bottle babies a year. Most are raised on goats milk. The ones that aren't (like if I bought a kid during the dry season) are raised on cows milk. 

I've raised a few on milk replacer with terrible results. Mind you, I fed the best replacer on the market, spent BIG $ on it. 
They were never as thrifty and had terrible growth. After dealing with this for some time, I switched to cows milk and the kids really started turning around! Just better all around and started gaining well. Once I had does in milk I put them on goats milk and they flourished. I've raised big healthy kids off of just cows milk. That is also what I recommend to others and they have grown kids very well with it. I know many others who have also raised kids on whole cow milk without a problem. Only time there is an issue is when it is an abrupt change. 

Kids can also get colostrum without being dam raised. I pull my kids at birth. As soon as the dam is finished and has recuperated, she gets milked out and the colostrum is fed to her kids.


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## LocoYokel (Mar 15, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. I've seen many time where milk replacer work well for lambs, goats not so much!
> 
> I raise 20-30 bottle babies a year. Most are raised on goats milk. The ones that aren't (like if I bought a kid during the dry season) are raised on cows milk.
> 
> ...


As I edited in... I am all wet when it comes to goats! I should have checked Before I posted. 
It is nice when you have a dam to milk for the colostrum but in most of my bottle experiences the reason we had to bottle raise was because of losing the mother.  I see that they make a colostrum replacement. Have you ever used that @Goat Whisperer?  Inquiring minds.... and for future reference!


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## Green Acres Farm (Mar 15, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> As I edited in... I am all wet when it comes to goats! I should have checked Before I posted.
> It is nice when you have a dam to milk for the colostrum but in most of my bottle experiences the reason we had to bottle raise was because of losing the mother.  I see that they make a colostrum replacement. Have you ever used that @Goat Whisperer?  Inquiring minds.... and for future reference!


Now I might be making this up, but I think does pass specific antibodies that they have developed because of their specific environment to their kids that are not in milk replacers. I have heard of a lot of stories of kids getting enterotoxemia from milk replacer because even though it is formulated for goats, it ISN'T goat's milk.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 15, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> As I edited in... I am all wet when it comes to goats! I should have checked Before I posted.
> It is nice when you have a dam to milk for the colostrum but in most of my bottle experiences the reason we had to bottle raise was because of losing the mother.  I see that they make a colostrum replacement. Have you ever used that @Goat Whisperer?  Inquiring minds.... and for future reference!



They do make it however most breeders will freeze colostrum by putting it in ice cube trays then putting it in a bag in he freezer. They label who it is from and the date so that when somethig tragic happens they have it for anothers kid. We had to give colostrum to  a friend last year whose goat had a large litter and wasn't making colostrum yet and was a ightmare on the stand... she had a traumatic birth as well. Getting colostrum from someone can be risky so making sure the herd test are for all goats across the board and are negative for CAE, CL, and Johnes, (TB/Brucellosis too). This is most ideal.

Of course when someone doesn't have that option you can only do what you can do.

@m700  the milk should NOT smell sour - the milk may be bad.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 15, 2017)

That she said 

And no need to apologize! All good


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## purplequeenvt (Mar 16, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I have to respectfully disagree. I've seen many time where milk replacer work well for lambs, goats not so much!
> 
> I raise 20-30 bottle babies a year. Most are raised on goats milk. The ones that aren't (like if I bought a kid during the dry season) are raised on cows milk.
> 
> ...



X2. I have a Jersey milk cow and whenever we are feeding bottle babies (and she's in milk), they are fed her milk. They do so much better than on replacer.


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## m700 (Mar 16, 2017)

Update:
I went to TSC last night and picked up the Jumpstart gel and the Goat drench, we tried the Jumpstart gel last night, and they perked up a bit and were ready to eat, we got two feedings in after this. 

The buckling seemed to be back to normal, the doeling however, was still laying off. The fact that they were getting something in them was a huge relief. I woke up this morning at 7 am to feed again, the buckling greeted me at his pen excited and had no issues eating. The doeling gave me trouble again 

Guys, ever since I brought her home she has acted very odd to me. I watch her brother willingly walk up to a bottle, eat no problem, hop around, do little flips, get random bursts of energy and start jumping and going off the walls.. But her, she has never done this. I kept telling the breeder that I was concerned about her but she didn't seem to be. I just assumed maybe she had a different personality, but I feel it's pretty clear now that something isn't right. 

She NEVER wants to eat, every feeding we have done the past 9 days since we've had her has been forced. I understand that her being with her mom for 2 days, and then being taken away and immediately expected to transition to a bottle is hard on them and can take a while .. but she doesn't even show the littlest bit of interest in eating. 

We will get the nipple in her mouth and she will scream then settle down and allow it to sit in her mouth while she chews on it or tries to push it out. Sometimes if I get her in the right position she will suck a little bit and then all the sudden she completely stops and almost freezes. Sometimes it freaks me out because it almost looks like she's not alive! She will just pause completely and leave the bottle in her mouth. I remove the bottle give her a break, and try again.. still the same situation the next try. I'm barely getting anything into this poor girl and it's driving my family and I nuts.

Today we were about to feed them and we noticed she was slightly hunched over kind of straining. Finally, she pooped but after pooping my mom said she still looked like she was uncomfortable. We took her to the tub and did an enema. Some more came out and after that we let her relax, then they had some play time outside. She did not move at all her, while her brother was running around the yard having the time of his life. I offered her a bottle and managed to get an ounce in or so, when she did decide to suck for the minute or less. Since then she has been very sleepy and hasn't cared to do anything, all she ever does sleep, stand up and just stare off blankly or fall asleep standing up. She does nibble on everything but appears weak, this is probably due to her not wanting to eat, but WHY doesn't she want to eat?

She has been grinding her teeth since we brought her home. I know that that can be a sign of discomfort. 

She's a 9 day old Nigerian Dwarf
Her mouth isn't cold 
Her temperature is normal 
She has been pooping and peeing normally. 
When she does intake food she is on goats milk with a tiny tiny bit of whole cows milk to help aid in transitioning. 
I'm feeding 4 times a day every 3-4 hours.
The only nipple she really is ok with in her mouth is the clear one from TSC.

I don't know what to do at this point. I'm going to research some vets in the area and hopefully have her seen ASAP. Not sure what could be wrong? I don't think it's bloat or constipation, dehydration is possible since she is always refusing food but I don't know how else to get her to take the bottle. I tried feeding her from a very small bowl with a tiny bit of milk in it and she drank that but I wasn't sure if this was ok for her to keep doing at such a young age.

Sorry for the long posts, just a really concerned first time baby goat bottle feeder lol.


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## NH homesteader (Mar 16, 2017)

I think she should see a vet, for sure. Doesn't sound right. Have you taken her temperature?


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## NH homesteader (Mar 16, 2017)

Oops sorry, apparently I can't read. Regardless I think a vet would be a good plan


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## Southern by choice (Mar 16, 2017)

A couple of things- One she may need thiamine
Goats not wanting to eat or sluggish may be deficient in this... yes you can have 2-3-4-5 goats in a litter and only one have this issue.
Sometimes a goat that was exposed the meconium may have ingested and they end up sick from it... many die within the first few ays
Sometimes there is an internal issues, a birth defect, that you cannot see but is causing the problem
Sometimes a cleft pallet will cause them to be unable to eat

When the breeder sold you the goats did the breeder already have them trained fully to the bottle ( you may have already said this but refresh my memory)

Lastly- there are some goats born that are just a "failure to thrive" goat- they do happen. 

Years ago we had a doe kid twins- first was big and robust, 2nd was tiny and NOT robust. There was meconium as well.
The second doe was just sluggish, not lifting head etc... no matter what would not take a bottle... 
We knew she would not make it.
Day 3 she died in our arms.

We immediately took her to Rollins Lab ( our state diagnostics lab) for $10 we had her necropsied to find out why.
Sometimes they can tell and sometimes they can't (like the failure to thrive- nothing comes up)
In our case the meconium did cause aspiration and that was the cause BUT the vets said she would have died anyway!
What!
They said anywhere from 3-6 weeks she would have died because she had underdeveloped kidneys. 
They put that in a worldwide database... no known genetic /heritable cause.... just one of those "crap happens"

I was very glad I had the necropsy done, one it gave me idea of what was wrong.... but two if the meconium never happened and she was "normal" but died 3-6 weeks later I would have been mortified.

I was glad it wasn't a deficiency or something that I could or MIGHT have been able to have corrected with the pregnant doe.

Anyway I share this because sometimes people need to know that despite our best efforts sometimes goats don't make it. 
Sometimes it just devastates a person and leaves them wondering and feeling some kind of guilt.

I sure hope things work out for you. This is a great community and we really care about goats, their humans, hardships, joys, etc. 
Hope you stick around regardless of outcome.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 16, 2017)

If she is drinking from the bowl keep giving her milk from the bowl. I usually start my kids on a bowl around 2-4 weeks depending on my schedule. If I weren't in school I might not have started doing so. I have never had a problem with my kids drinking from the bowl instead of the bottle. I am not sure if any one else has? I would think the important thing is to get her to drink the milk however she wants. Of course, SBC has excellent points and more milk may not be enough to save her.


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## Green Acres Farm (Mar 16, 2017)

Shouldn't you tube feed if they refuse a bottle? I have not experienced this, but do have a tube feeding kit in case I should ever need it.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 16, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> If she is drinking from the bowl keep giving her milk from the bowl. I usually start my kids on a bowl around 2-4 weeks depending on my schedule. If I weren't in school I might not have started doing so. I have never had a problem with my kids drinking from the bowl instead of the bottle. I am not sure if any one else has? I would think the important thing is to get her to drink the milk however she wants. Of course, SBC has excellent points and more milk may not be enough to save her.


We have trough fed before - same principle  I think it was @babsbag  that sent me an article and then I saw another on the affects of it and there is some suggestion it causes growth issues. Yet  I know many people that bowl/trough feed and no issues so I don't know 


Green Acres Farm said:


> Shouldn't you tube feed if they refuse a bottle? I have not experienced this, but do have a tube feeding kit in case I should ever need it.


No not necessarily.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 17, 2017)

Wow, @Southern by choice, you wouldn't know how to find that article now would you?


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## m700 (Mar 17, 2017)

Another update: (Sorry if I'm annoying you guys.)

After this morning of her not having any interest in eating again and acting extremely sluggish, I knew if this went on any longer we would lose her. I had enough of stressing and trying all types of things to get her to eat with no progress. Finally, I just reached out to the lady once again and asked her if it was ok if I stopped by so she could take a look at her. She said she would see if she was able to latch on to mom, and see if mom would take her back. If so, she'd hold onto her until she was weaned OR see if she would latch onto a bottle for her. 

Well, as soon as we got there she tried to bottle feed her and she did the exact same thing she does with us. Immediately the breeder said she was shocked at how stubborn she was, and said there was probably no way we would have ever got her on the bottle. She also said if it went a couple of more days we probably wouldn't have been able to get her back.

She put her in with mom and her sister and all the sudden it was like a whole different goat! Her little tail started wagging like crazy. She immediately went for mom and got a little bit of nursing in before mom realized she didn't recognize her and started butting her. She had to hold mom down and force her to allow the baby to nurse as mom wanted nothing to do with her. She also tried leaning the bottle underneath mom and the baby sucked on the bottle like crazy! Never seen her do that before. She says it's all mental with her, and she wouldn't have thrived with us, because she truly just wanted her mom  I felt so bad watching her get so excited over seeing mom and realizing she can finally eat. 

Anyway, the breeder said she will be working with mom to see if she'll take her on again. She'll be putting her on at the same time as her sister, hopefully distracting her from noticing that the other is nursing.  If that doesn't work she is going to keep leaning the bottle underneath mom to get her to eat. 

I just feel really bad all around. Everyone has always told me it's ok to take them from their mom that early, and being that she allowed it I figured it was not a big deal. After all, she was basically just depressed, missing mom. I hate to put that burden back on the breeder but then again, why would she sell a bottle baby without seeing if she had a latch on a bottle first?

By the way, her brother is doing great, eating about 6 ounces each feeding, greeting me with a wagging tail and jumping all over the place. 

Thank you so much for all the information guys!! It has been really helpful and greatly appreciated!


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## Southern by choice (Mar 17, 2017)

So glad you updated!

That sounds good! Normally most breeders pull the kid from birth and never let them on the dam so these things don't happen.
Some breeders will allow the goat on for the first few days then pull but USUALLY they give a bottle FIRST then allow them on a teat. These kids usually do just fine on both.
When a person sells a goat kid as a bottle baby the goat should be FULLY on the bottle with no issues.... they should not have any hesitation.
Maybe both learned from this experience.

I read on another group a few years back a lady was going to sell her kids at 3 weeks as bottle babies.
Ummm.... they had NEVER even had a bottle and were on the dam
Everyone tried to explain finalyy a bunch of people just laid it out and said yhose kids will die and what about the new owners and what you'll put them through.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. 

Glad your breeder asked you to come back with the kid and no she/he should not have let the kid go without being fully on bottle so it is good that she/he is working this out. Shows they care about the kid and you.

So- just because you have been having difficulties and that led you here we sure hope you stay with us. We love goats, kids, antics etc.... 
and a bit overdue but welcome to BYH!


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## babsbag (Mar 17, 2017)

Really glad that you took her back to the breeder. I have pulled kids at 2 or 3 days and not had any problems so it can be done. I also had one to train to a bottle at three weeks when the mom died and THAT was tough. I would never sell a bottle baby that wasn't on a bottle at my house before I sold it.


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## babsbag (Mar 17, 2017)

@dejavoodoo114  I am not sure where the article came from, that was too many years ago, but this is basically what it said. Trough feeding should not take place for about the first 3 weeks.

_If your baby is a ruminant, the milk needs to bypass the rumen, which is undeveloped in newborns. It must go to the abomasum, or true stomach. Fortunately, Mother Nature takes care of this process for us. 

When the baby holds its head in the natural nursing position, straight out and extended, and maintains the tension in its throat necessary to nurse, a fold of skin in the esophagus — known as the esophageal groove — closes, causing the milk to bypass the rumen and go straight into the abomasum. Why is this a big deal? In order to properly digest, milk must form clots, removing the water part of the fluid, and then make its way to the small intestine where it can be absorbed. The abomasum contains rennet, the digestive enzyme that helps all this take place; and helps to make great cheese. If it goes directly into the rumen instead of the abomasum, it has to clot up there, which can take up to three hours longer, and make its way back to the abomasum anyway.

The rumen is pretty much nonfunctional in the first couple weeks of life. In the ruminant baby, the abomasum is the larger of the two compartments, and the rumen is a small percentage of its mature size._


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 17, 2017)

So glad the baby is doing better! Thanks for the update! Unfortunately, many will come to BYH with a problem but never come back to update anyone. We are a caring group here and love to get updates!

Boy she was a stubborn lil' thing! Sometimes I've had to toss a towel over there eyes- similar to how a kid were to rub its head against the dams udder to find the teat. 
Years ago I had to train two kids to the bottle- the dam had gotten a very bad strain of mastitis and was going down hill- just like the breeder did, I started by holding the bottle right against the dams udder and gently guided the kid to the "right" nipple. The wouldn't start on it any other way. 

Some goats are so stubborn, I've had several Nigerian bucklings that refuse to let me put them on a bottle. They scream, flail, kick, if I try to put the nipple in their mouth, they are the ones that have to figure it out themselves 

Hope the little one thrives from here on out!


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## Latestarter (Mar 18, 2017)

Heard of stubborn old goats (mirrors come to mind) but that's one stubborn baby goat! Hard to understand why it would starve to death rather than take a bottle. Thanks for the update (as others have said) and I hope this solves the issue and you get back a fully weaned goat, ready to become a productive part of your goat society.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 18, 2017)

I am glad you kept bothering the breeder and that she is willing to keep your little girl until fully on the bottle or weaned! We also pull the kids immediately when we plan to bottle feed. Things are far easier that way on the kids and dam.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 18, 2017)

@babsbag , I did know that they needed to have their heads up. That is why I waited until 2-3 weeks. Sounds like I need to do so no earlier than three weeks. Thanks.


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## m700 (Mar 18, 2017)

Unfortunately, the buckling is now doing the same exact thing the doeling was doing. He is refusing to eat, rejects the bottle and is acting like he doesn't know how to nurse anymore. He has been moping around all day since his sister has been gone and has not eaten. I am seriously at loss ... I am really upset. Don't know what to do at this point. Breeder said the doeling is nursing off mom and another dam, don't think mom will take on her other baby. I hate to say this but at this point I am just done with it. My family is upset about it all and taking it out on me as if I asked for them to be "difficult" The breeder offered for me to take the other sister who hasn't left mom yet and I refused. I don't need to take that risk a third time. I don't see any other way to get him back to normal other than bringing him back to his family.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 18, 2017)

I am so sorry this has been your experience. This should have been joyful and exciting for everyone.
Sadly I think the breeders inexperience perhaps has made this far less than joyous.

It is not your fault that this turned out this way. 

I hope this does not ruin you on goats forever. I suspect your breeder will have learned from this as well.


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## norseofcourse (Mar 18, 2017)

What SBC said.  I'm sorry it's been so tough with the little ones.  I'm sure the buckling is affected by his sister not being there, maybe tomorrow he will be acting better and enjoying the extra attention from you.  And I also hope it doesn't put you off goatkeeping, they can be such fun to be around.


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## m700 (Mar 18, 2017)

I own 4 wethers that I've had for about 2 years. I got them when they were about 3 months so they were already eating on their own. They are hilarious and part of the family. I enjoy their company that's why I wanted to add two more. I just feel bad all around. I am actually in dog rescue and currently have two chihuahua siblings, one male one female. He seemed to take to the female for comfort, they are passed out together right now. Maybe this will help him get back in the swing of things... hoping maybe he will eat a little bit after realizing he is not alone. *fingers crossed*


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 21, 2017)

Yikes, I agree with SBC. Sorry for this experience. How is the buck doing now?


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## m700 (Mar 22, 2017)

Update: He laid off a day or two after his sister left, I had to syringe feed him because he just wouldn't eat. I didn't want to give up on him and have to bring him back too, so I had the idea to introduce Peanut the Chihuahua to him. It took a day or so and he perked back up. He started taking the bottle again without issue, started jumping, head butting, and running around like crazy again. They spend all day with each other playing, and snuggle to sleep at night. They are pretty much inseparable now, they're always cuddling in a little dog bed together, it's pretty cute. Peanut even thinks she is supposed to get a bottle now. 

This morning, he has decided to not take his bottle. I'm not sure why he does this, but I try not to freak out so much as long as he's still playing and acting normal. I've learned with him and his sister that their personalities are very stubborn and particular. 

He is 14 days old now. He is eating 6-8 ounces 4 x a day. He sucks down 6-8 and then acts as if he wants more but never really does. I keep offering until it's clear he's full and then I wait until the next feeding. When he's outside he nibbles on grass and has dipped his nose into water a couple of times. I know I need to introduce hay and grain in, but how much?

Also, the sister is still at the breeder and still won't take a bottle. The breeder is keeping her on the mother and another goat to nurse until she is weaned. We've been thinking it over, and the main reason we got bottle babies was to have them raised by us from the beginning to bond with them. Since we had such a rough experience with her, and now that she is not with us, we really don't have a connection with her. (I hope that doesn't sound harsh) I am ok with taking her back when she is weaned, but it doesn't really make sense to. We bought her as a bottle baby to bottle feed her and be a companion to her brother, not to be raised with the breeder and then weaned.  My family member thinks that it's right that the breeder refunds us the $200.00 we paid for her if I do decide to tell her that we won't be taking her back. I'm not sure how the breeder will go about this.. do you guys think it's ok to ask her for a refund? I don't know how any of that works or if she'll even do it. I don't want any issues with the breeder, I feel like she is eventually going to get aggravated.


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## Latestarter (Mar 23, 2017)

Defer to those who may have experienced this... @OneFineAcre @Southern by choice @babsbag @ragdollcatlady @Ferguson K @animalmom @frustratedearthmother And I'm sure there are others.


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## animalmom (Mar 23, 2017)

I'd put out hay for your boy now.  If he is sampling grass then he will probably sample the hay too.  I don't offer grain to my kids until they are weaned, but that's just the way I do it.

I don't have any advise on the doeling.


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## ragdollcatlady (Mar 23, 2017)

I would put hay and a small bowl of goat pellets out for the kid to start on as soon as he wants to try it. 

As for the doeling, your other kid will need a friend anyway so you need another goat one way or another. Alot of holding and attention makes for great friendly goats, preferably started younger than older, but when she is 8 weeks or so and comes back to you, you will have the chance to bond. When my human kids were home, we regularly "tamed baby goats". Basically we held them on our laps for one or 2 tv shows or movies at a time. They would fuss for the first 10 minutes or so, but usually by the 4th time or so, they realized we were just gonna hold them and watch the shows so they would settle down and would be tame as can be out in the yard. 

I know you are stressed right now, but if you can get your kids through the here and now and try to settle into things in a few weeks when they are both home, you will find they are wonderful little creatures! I am a fullblown goat addict. They are the naughty children of the animal world, but so worth the antics and the fun. They are a wonderful distraction from everything you ever wanted to be distracted from.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Mar 26, 2017)

I would give a refund myself if something like this came up especially to be sure the kids went to the right home. However, I also make sure nothing like this ever comes up... I agree with @ragdollcatlady that even weaned the girl will be able to be attache to you. BUT, if you no longer feel as if the girl is a good fit, ask the breeder if she would refund you the money. They can only say no. Just don't forget, you really need more than one goat for them to be happy! (and you )


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## Jenn27 (Mar 28, 2017)

I start putting out grains as soon as I notice them being curious about what mom is eating. I also put the hay on the ground a few times a week for all of my goats and at some point the kids will start to eat it, as well.


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## Kathi Davis (Apr 12, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Everything  @Goat Whisperer said but she forgot to mention- sometimes if all conditions are met- playtime, vitamins etc and it is strictly she won't take a bottle you can train her to drink from a bowl.
> Also make sure the milk is very warm VERY! If it is cool or lukewarm they usually don't take it.  Milk cools very quickly in the bottles.
> 
> The jumpstart is a real good thing to give.
> ...



@Southern by choice is correct about the feeding out of a bowl.  I had one kid last year that nothing I did would get him to eat.  I finally just dumped in a bucket and stuck his nose in it.  He went to town from there.  Sometimes the nipples just don't feel right or they just don't like the rubber taste.


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## Kathi Davis (Apr 12, 2017)

When we bottle fed last year we made a mixture of store bought milk here is the recipe we got from a local breeder. 
1 Gallon Whole Milk
½ Gallon Buttermilk
1 12-ounce Can Evaporated Milk

Here’s how to mix the ingredients:

Pour out 2 cups of Whole Milk into a bowl. Add 1 cup of Buttermilk and 1 can of evaporated milk to Whole Milk jug. Put cap back on Whole Milk and shake to mix ingredients. Pour appropriate amount of milk into bottle and place bottle in pot of warm/hot water to warm up milk. Refrigerate remaining Whole Milk mixture and unused ingredients.

If this causes the babies to start to scour a little bit, we found that adding one egg to the mixture helps quickly.  If scouring continues for more than just a few days, consult your local vet! Scouring should not be taken lightly.

Ours loved it and I was told that it is just as good if not better than some of the replacements that you buy.  Ours never had a problem except for one did get scours but once we added an egg he was good as gold.


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## Kathi Davis (Apr 12, 2017)

m700 said:


> The buckling is 4.5 lbs and the doeling is 5.5 lbs.
> 
> They were part of triplets but I only took the two.
> 
> ...



m700 believe me it will be well worth it.  You will have shadows that never leave  your side.  LOL.  Ours followed us everywhere and were so noisy.  They even loved helping me weed the garden except they loved to taste everything so I had to scold them every once in a while.  Just remember to breathe.  It will all work out in the end.


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