# Is a LGD, Llama or Donkey a good choice for my situation?



## Womwotai (Feb 11, 2014)

I've been thinking about this off an on for awhile now - hopefully it won't get too long - teehee.

I live on 10 acres.  Currently we have a 7-acre pasture that contains 6 sheep (3 of them pregnant ewes) and 2 goats (one of whom we hope is pregnant).  The remaining 3-acres is house, garden area, yard and a ½ acre "chicken yard", where we have over 100 chickens and turkeys.  The latter free-range the front 3-acres and a small amount of the 7-acre pasture during the day most days.

We currently have two 40-lb "mutts", adopted as adults, and selected because they are poultry friendly. They are outside dogs but have a dog door that leads into the garage and their food is kept there so as not to attract other dogs and wild animals.  Shortly after moving here a fox climbed the fence and wiped out a good portion of my flock in a matter of hours.  It was summer and the dogs were blissfully sleeping on the cool cement floor of the garage at the time.  Following that we moved a dog house into the chicken yard and since then the dogs have slept there every night.  In the almost two years since, we haven't had any more issues with predators killing our birds.  (Although the dogs are not LGD's, I believe their presence there acts as a deterrent and though they are not locked in the yard during the day, their scent remains).  

The sheep and goats did not arrive until last summer.  Our 7-acre pasture was fenced for horses/cattle, not sheep/goats, so initially they were contained in our lagoon fencing, while we had field fence installed around the entire 7-acres (about a month).  Two days after turning them loose in the pasture, a pack of coyotes killed one of them.  Turns out the fencers had left a 10" gap, which allowed the coyotes to simply walk through.  We were out at the time so can't say for sure whether our dogs were aware but in order to keep lambs and goats IN the pasture, we had essentially rendered it impossible for our dogs to get back there, meaning even if they were aware, there was little they could have done.  We fixed the 10" gap and in the 8 months since, have had no further problems.

The first year was an experiment to see if we enjoy raising sheep and goats.  We do.  We are excitedly preparing for lambs and kids now and eager to build up our flock/herd.  But, as the time when babies will be on the ground approaches, I'm getting increasingly nervous about keeping them safe.  Which has led to considering LGD(s).

So that's a little about us.  We do know both foxes and coyotes are around but in two years have had exactly one attack by each.  I'm concerned the predator activity is low enough a LGD would be bored here.  

Economically - have to wonder if the care and feeding of one or two large dogs year-round makes sense.  We are primarily raising the livestock to feed us.  If it winds up costing more to keep the guardians than we are eating in meat - is it worth it?  (Sorry if that sounds cold but I'm trying to think of every aspect.)

Barking.  I have 3 friends with GP's who all report the dogs bark all night long and that would drive me nuts.  Are there other breeds of LGD that aren't quite as vocal in their defense of their livestock?

What is the general consensus about one dog or two?  I've always understood that one working alone will burn out quickly but in an environment where there is perhaps not enough full time work for one dog, is having two just crazy talk?

My current dogs are dog, sheep and goat friendly, and are allowed to follow me into the pasture when I'm doing chores. I wouldn't mind them playing with the LGD's but have pictured the living arrangement being that the LGD's would live in the pasture with the sheep and goats, while the "pet" dogs would continue living in the front 3 acres by day and the chicken yard at night.  Does this sound workable?

I've been researching various LGD's.  I'm willing to travel to get pup(s) from a reputable breeder and try to do everything right as far as raising, training, etc.  But I'm still vacillating about whether it is even a realistic choice for us, so I look forward to hearing opinions and perhaps factors that I have not yet considered will be raised.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 11, 2014)

Have you considered a Llama?


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## Womwotai (Feb 11, 2014)

I did consider llamas and donkeys right after the coyote attack.  You're right - thinking back on what I wrote, they probably make more sense since they eat the same food.  I was put off both by the thought of transport (I don't have a trailer) and hoof care.  I keep horses though and do already have a farrier so the latter is not a huge deal.  My other concern with them is that they do need regular handling in order to do annual shots and worming, and I was concerned those things would be an issue.  

But I do think I need to revisit this idea - none of those factors are "deal breakers" and overall perhaps this does make more sense for this situation.

I will amend the subject of this and would welcome thoughts from people who keep either llamas or donkeys as guardians as to whether one works more effectively than another?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 11, 2014)

@goatboy1973  has guardian Llamas - a good one to talk to.

I have 4 LGDogs and work and train them. I am a big fan of the "dog" .
You post was very well thought out and you gave excellent understanding of your needs. Very few do this so it is appreciated. . When I posted I had a phone call come in so it was short without giving you the why's of the question...

The expense of a LGD can definitely add up. LGD's eat very little once they reach about 11 months but you will need to consider flea/tick prevention, Hw prevention, upkeep for brushing out that winter coat rabies and initial  shots. Once the dog is guarding are you prepared for vet bills from injuries received from coyotes etc?  Yes, and I am a big believer that pairs are best. One LGD, more often than not, can be somewhat problematic as often they can get bored and they are dogs- pack animals. I see many more issues with chasing and bad behaviors with singles. Also the level of predator intensity can also determine the need. The number of livestock to guard is another factor. Despite the ridiculous notion that has been shoved down the throats of prospective owners, they do need and want human attention. The once a day pat on the head that is preached will result in other issues later. So daily attention is required.

As far as barking.... they may or may not bark all night. I have trained mine so they do not bark needlessly. If my dogs are barking they are doing so for a reason. Very few work with training unnecessary barking. They are nocturnal so they are up when the majority of predators are ... hence the barking. While they are growing and learning they often do go through a barking stage. 

The free range poultry is another factor. Like you we have on average 250-300 various birds (chickens, turkeys, ducks, geese) our dogs are trained but it is a reality that LGDogs will kill poultry along the way. It takes diligence and great effort to train them out of this. They generally don't even touch poultry til 7 months ( some earlier 5-6  some later) it usually starts out as "play" rarely is it to just "kill and eat". But you will lose birds. 
Those that are not on the farm full time will find this very difficult as working will then on weekends (if you have a dayjob) will not be sufficient. In my case for our farm we considered it acceptable loss for our future needs. I breed 17 breeds of poultry and I am not penning them. It takes time for the dogs to understand hawks- yes, chickens-no. There are also stages of development in the poultry issue. It could take as long as 2 years to work with them. Some never are fully trained. They were not bred as poultry guardians and many forget this. When they are trained for poultry it is not that they will bond to protect them but more a matter of the by- product of the livestock they are in with. I know you said your housedogs take care of the poultry side so that is good as long as they will not be in the same field as the LGD.

The pets you have now and a LGD should be introduced and be able to play etc OUTSIDE of livestock areas though. As they LGD grows older they tend not to play with or co-mingle much with non0lgd dogs. LGD's do not play like other dogs and also training them up as pups... depending on the kind of dogs you have... they can "teach" the LGD pup things that you don't want in a LGD.

Fencing can be an issue depending on the level of training the LGD has. For many the LGD can be an escape artist.

LGDog breeds are not like other dogs and are in another class altogether. I really feel they are their own "species". I can honestly tell you that if you do not truly have the love/heart and true anticipation of wanting a livestock guardian dog then I wouldn't recommend one. These animals are smart, loyal, loving, and superb guardians yet they can try you in many ways. 

I tagged Goatboy1973 so hopefully you will get some input about llamas.


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## Womwotai (Feb 11, 2014)

@Southern by choice, thank you SO much for your detailed and well-thought out reply.  

My "job" is to run our small farm so while my attention is divided between kids, and responsibilities to friends and family, I am here most of the time and in that sense, have the time to devote to training.  That said, I have some qualms about whether I am "up to the task".  I don't want to have a situation where LGD's have failed due to my inability to "raise them right" so that is definitely a consideration.

Their being escape artists was not something I had even considered - good to know.  Our fencing is pretty solid right now having only been completed a few months ago but - it is 4' high field fence around most of it with a strand of barbed wire at the top for some of it and a hot wire at the top for the rest.  It keeps our sheep and goats contained but I'm guessing a determined escape artist could find a way out, whether over or digging under.

It is good to hear that they do need human interaction.  Our "pet" dogs are part of our family but I was prepared to allow LGD's to be more aloof, thinking too much interaction might prevent them doing their job well.  It is nice to know that wouldn't be necessary.

Good tip about bringing them out of the pasture to play with the pet dogs, vs. bringing the pets to them.

The killing of the poultry.  That is kind of a buzz kill.  I've heard so many people (either friends of in posts on various forums) mention this and while I know it is a "stage", I would find it very upsetting.  I didn't consider LGD's for the poultry because I knew they are really not bred to protect poultry, so, thinking about them in terms of the goats and sheep, I completely overlooked that I would need to consider the poultry even so.  The birds tend to hop the fence into the sheep pen, so they can scratch around and pick up any grain missed by them, or for seeds in the hay - or heck, just because they can.  The likelihood of losing some of my favorite birds - even if it is because the birds hopped into the dogs' space - gives me pause.

I'm going to spend quite a bit more time thinking about this before making any decisions.  In the meantime I've been reading up on Llamas.  It seems there is no perfect system - they certainly have their challenges as well 

But one other thing you said did draw my attention.  You said you are breeding 17 breeds without penning the birds.  Can you explain how that works for you?  I am working multiple breeds but don't pen mine either, so I'm eager to compare notes as to how that works for you.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 11, 2014)

Sure. I will draft up a post about the chicken breeding. 

Sadly many LGD's are set up for failure because breeders sell them too soon, do not evaluate, do not match dog to environment and many still do the "dump them in the field" and expect them to just know what to do. 

I truly love the LGD's they are my passion and never want to discourage anyone but I always feel it is fair to both the one seeking a guardian and the dogs to lay it all out there.


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## babsbag (Feb 13, 2014)

As someone with a 13 month old LGD I can that Southern is right on about "you will lose birds". And the fact that your birds are infrequent visitors to the goat field will make it even harder. I have a 3 year old LGD too and she does not bother HER birds, but the few chickens or guineas that come over the fence on a random visit better get out or get got.   Also, new birds have to be introduced in a pen in the goat field for at least a week before my "good" dog will accept them as hers. I have not yet tried broody raised chicks with my dog, I keep them separate and therefore safe for quite a few months.

Other than that I LOVE my dogs, but for me they are as much for my protection and sense of security as they are for my goats. I honestly could not do the night time visits to the barn without them.


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## Womwotai (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks to SBC and babsbag for the reality check 

I looked into llamas but I'm not sure they're for me. 

I'm still thinking on LGD's and reading all I can about the various breeds, training etc.  Last night a ewe surprised me by delivering this:





I mean, I knew it was going to happen sometime but she barely looked pregnant so I wasn't expecting it to happen yet.  I moved her and baby into a protected area where I knew they were safe for the night but at some point I'll have to let her back out to rejoin the flock and I'm seriously worried about predation on those tiny, vulnerable little lambs (another ewe looks ready to go any time too). 

I know there is nothing I can do this year.  Even if a puppy dropped in today, it wouldn't be ready to guard until the next lambing season at the earliest.  So for now I'll just have to have sleepless nights and hope the pet dogs continue to deter predators.  I may even move the dog house into the pasture and let the dogs spend some nights out there.

Oh - speaking of pet dogs - one of mine was beyond excited about the lamb.  I kept her out of the pasture but she stood outside trembling and whining and not taking her eyes off the baby.  Not the "I need to get at that" whining but the "oh, that's adorable, I want to love on it" whining.  Later she pushed the gate open - something she's never done before - and ran up to the lamb to sniff it all over.  Amazingly, Mum didn't mind a bit.  I've found that with this particular dog, all animals seem to sense she is not a threat.  I once watched her lie stock still while 5-day-old chicks crawled all over her - she was afraid to move for fear of hurting them.  Anyway, Mama Sheep was quite happy to have the dog explore her baby, and once she'd had a chance to officially meet the baby, she was happy.

But back to the LGD issue… Another question: we talked earlier about how its best to have two working dogs together.  But how do you do that?  In reading about training, everything references "the pup".  And picturing training a pup myself, it feels like having one at a time would be easier - less distractions for the pup and, when they are in the energetic, chicken-killing, drag everything home and chew it up stage, having two might drive me completely bonkers.  So would you recommend getting one and then a year or two later getting the second pup?  Or do you recommend to people in my situation, starting with two pups at the same time and just getting through it until they're mature?  Ideally, I would LOVE to start with an older dog who is a trained LGD, not a failed pet that needs rehabilitation, but I know they are few and far between.  However the ideal situation would allow me to "hit the ground running" and then get a pup for the older dog to help me train, so that in a much shorter time I'd have two LDG's I could trust to keep my lambs safe.


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## babsbag (Feb 13, 2014)

I did the two pups at the same time a few years back and it did have an advantage...they kept each other entertained when they wanted to play. I still lost some birds, but nothing like I am going through this time. I personally would not get sibling pups though, but some people do that  successfully, but that can bring on another set of problems.

As far as what you can do right now to protect your flock, I would put up a hot wire. Get a good charger, at least one joule, and run a wire around the top of the fence about 3 inches above the fence wire, and another at the bottom, about 4 inches off the ground. And if you really want to be sure, put one in the middle too. Think like a dog and determine where you think they would come in contact with the wire if they were climbing your fence.

I sit here right now and hear the coyotes, and then I hear my dogs. It is great to know that they are on patrol, but for the first 2.5 years I had goats we only had the hot wire; better than nothing. Also be sure to clean up all the afterbirth really well.

That is awesome about your dogs and the chick, (and lamb). You are fortunate. And the lamb is adorable.


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## Womwotai (Feb 14, 2014)

Thanks again babsbag.  Can you elaborate on the problems caused with getting sibling pups?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 14, 2014)

@Womwotai 



> But one other thing you said did draw my attention. You said you are breeding 17 breeds without penning the birds. Can you explain how that works for you? I am working multiple breeds but don't pen mine either, so I'm eager to compare notes as to how that works for you.



I started to respond and realized I'd like to give a little more detail on things we have done and tried... what we changed and why. I think it will be more informative and hopefully spare you some of the issues we have experienced. I always feel like if I can give another the bigger picture and spare them some of the issues we have faced then it helps them in the long run. 

I just wanted you to know... working on it...I will let you know when I post it. I may put it under "other animals" thread. 

Also- there are many reasons why NOT to get siblings for LGD's.... more on that later too. Babs is right on in her post!

You also may want to look through my pups thread for 2 of the pups evaluations... once you read through you may get a better understanding... it kinda all comes together.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/minnie-blurb-pup-3-pics.27247/

The thread looks "long" but mostly has pics, but through out I do explain a good bit of what I am looking for and the whys... evals are later in the thread.


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## babsbag (Feb 14, 2014)

Southern might be able to answer that question more completely for you but I have 2 border collie siblings and when I got them I had trainers go so far as to tell me that I needed to rehome one of them. The biggest problem that they said I would encounter is that the dogs would never fully bond we me as they would be bonded with each other and people would take second place. Also that they would be so tightly bonded with each other that they would never develop their own personalities and that  there would be tremendous stress if they are separated.

I worked hard with those pups to avoid that. I did 16 weeks of puppy class on 2 different nights and then I did agility with one for about a year before starting the second. It paid off. I will agree that they are a tight pair, but they are incredibly bonded to us as well. However I do think it will be very stressful on them when one passes.

There were/are some challenges in training them. They don't listen well when they are with their sister 

LGDs may not form that tight bond with people, some do, so I don't know if you would see the same issues. Southern could tell you more, she has sibling LGDs I think.


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## Womwotai (Feb 14, 2014)

That makes complete sense - thank you!  Do you think the bonding with each other is because they've been together from birth on?  In other words, if you got two 10-week-old puppies from different sources, do you think the result would be different?  Or is it better to get them a few months apart?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 14, 2014)

The issue with sibling LGD's is a little different than "pet" breeds/dogs. In the pet world like Babs said the concern is about bonding with their humans. In the LGD world very often they will continue in the pack hierarchy that they have been in since birth. This can result in issues down the road as their autonomy may not develop well and not all will develop into their full potential. 

It is true that many have sibs and things worked well but honestly most really wouldn't know. They will usually see one sib having dominance and is the "alpha" or the strength of the two. The "lesser" dog may not be a lesser dog but is overshadowed and may not preform or actually work inn  a true partnership.

I do have sib males... but I am a "retired" trainer and know how to work with sibs. My males are completely different, have developed strongly, and each have their own "partner". They are intact males and extremely independent. They are in completely different areas and protect different herds.

If sibs are the only option then m/f is best, one needing fixed- preferably the male. 

The key is understanding traits and pairing accordingly. I always pair a watcher and a patroller. 2 watchers are ok 2 patrollers are not a good team. A "rare" neutral can be paired with either but is usually best with a patroller.

More issue come from breeders not understanding what they are looking at. Most just let people pick a pup by "oh, that one is adorable... that one there..."  If I evaluated a pup and that pup was better in a hands off 100+acre farm it would not be the right fit for a small active family farm with children and lots of family interaction.

Two pups at once if matched properly is fine... if not at the same age then *2-3 months apart is best*. They can develop their teamwork best they play differently and as they are growing and playing their "play" is all about how to do their job. They practice this over and over. 

Lead dogs generally will go over the back and neck... secondaries tend to go for the back legs and pull... this is important in their play. Regardless of watcher/patroller  it is generally the male that will go over the back and the female that goes  for the grab. "Secondaries" are not lesser dogs.


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## babsbag (Feb 15, 2014)

I knew that Southern could explain it better   When I had my two LGD puppies at  the same time they were about 4 months apart in age.


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## snowk (Mar 29, 2014)

I just read through this thread and have a question about lgds also.  In a perfect world I would have a dog.  I adore them, I enjoy spending time training and working with them (so far no guard dogs just very smart and athletic dogs) I have a papillion that I think would be a perfect guard if he only weighed about 50 more pounds!  My problem is that I do not currently live on my farm.  I live about 7 miles away.  We have plans to build a house there but so far coops and barns have taken presidence.  I worry that even a trained adult or pair would be difficult to work with if I only got to see them for an hour am and an hour pm?  I am guessing that I will need to look into llamas or donkeys until we build but I would love to hear that I am wrong about that???


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 6, 2014)

My pair is about 2 months apart in age and the best thing I ever did for my farm. Much more like "pets" (albeit working pets) than I had read. Southern is spot on though, she knows her stuff!


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