# boer udder discussion



## TheMixedBag (Mar 1, 2011)

Ok, so I personally don't raise boers (not a meat goat person, sorry!), and I've only ever had one in my life, but it's still a topic that interests me, and I wanted to get other people's opinions on it, since it does in a way relate to dairy goats.

Soon, the ABGA will be changing the rules to place 1x1 teated boers over others, both buck and doe. I personally have yet to see the reason why these changes are being made, and would like to see them.
Personally, I agree with Jack Mauldin. Boer goats are meat animals. Multiple, working teats (more than 1x1) means more kids can be fed at once, meaning more money in the long run. Boers are known for throwing multiples, and with trips or quads, it's much easier to feed them all with a 1x2 or a 2x2 teated doe. 

How do I think it relates to the ADGA and other breed registries (well heck, for any animal-look at the AQHA)? What's popular seems to be what wins most, and what the standard is changed to. Often times, the standards are written because someone thinks it makes the animal look better, not because it improves performance (or at least, that's my opinion-some of the things the ADGA wants are pretty...um...questionable).

What I want to know is what YOU prefer, and why it works best for you. It might also be interesting to discuss standards that you don't agree with that seem to be a bit more low-key. I like my dairy goats, I'd like them to show well, but their performance is more important to me, and if the ADGA standard is all I have to go on, I'm going to need more insight.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 1, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Soon, the ABGA will be changing the rules to place 1x1 teated boers over others, both buck and doe. I personally have yet to see the reason why these changes are being made, and would like to see them.
> Personally, I agree with Jack Mauldin. Boer goats are meat animals. Multiple, working teats (more than 1x1) means more kids can be fed at once, meaning more money in the long run. Boers are known for throwing multiples, and with trips or quads, it's much easier to feed them all with a 1x2 or a 2x2 teated doe.
> 
> .


I don't have boers either, but I'm skeptical that additional teats (even working ones) would be all that helpful.  All four kids don't need to eat at the same time to get adequate nutrition.  There are still just two halves to the udder regardless of how many teats, right?  And boers have smallish udders anyway, so how could three or four giant headed kids fit under there to nurse at the same time?  It almost seems like if a person was raising meat goats capable of feeding multiples they'd want to be more concerned with milk production than the number of teats... 2 teats or 6 won't make any difference in the production capability.

JMO- I don't have meat goats so I'd never really thought about it until now.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 1, 2011)

I wonder if it is possible to consistantly produce good teated 2x2 animals or if you end up with a lot of non-functional extra teats and fish teats.  

dealing with a doe with non-functional teats is a hassle.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 1, 2011)

I guess I figure with multiple working teats, all the kids could nurse without fighting (much...) and get at least a fair share, without one being shoved off and getting what's left.

I've also seen plenty of boer does with ginourmous udders (I mean dragging the ground almost beach ball sized), and the upper teats (the "additional" teats) were the ones that were easiest to reach. 

Also, as far as I know, if a doe has multiple functional teats, she's probably more likely to throw multiple functional teats. Multi-teated does are natural in boers, it's the 1x1 that's uncommon (at least, for the South African lines).

I found the video Jack Mauldin made making his case for why he raises the multi-teated does. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DndvgEbtHww


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 1, 2011)

"upper teats"?  I had imagined all the teats would basically be where they should be, just a couple extra... I'd better look up boer udders!  I guess if one was sticking off the side or something she could fit an extra kid on there.  But still, "what's left" should be plenty if she's producing enough milk for multiples I would think.  No?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 1, 2011)

Eeeww!    Ok, I looked at pictures and I see what you mean... It IS sticking off the side.  Yeah I guess an extra kid might fit on there.



			
				TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> I've also seen plenty of boer does with ginourmous udders (I mean dragging the ground almost beach ball sized), and the upper teats (the "additional" teats) were the ones that were easiest to reach.


This might be a dairy perspective, but if her teats are dragging the ground why not breed for better attachment rather than for extra teats on the lateral part of the udder?  Even if a poorly attached udder has an extra teat the kid can reach and it doesn't inhibit feeding, there is still a greater risk of injury to the doe.  Seems like that might affect your bottom line eventually.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 1, 2011)

Well, I don't breed boers but in my opinion, they should place 2 teated goats above others. Yes, they are meat goats, but they have to be good milkers to nurse fast growing babies.  Supernumeraries aren't always functional, and if they're not functional they can harm a kid.  Sometimes newborn kids latch on to a non functioning teat and never do learn to properly nurse off of a functioning teat.  And like someone else said, I'm sorry but I don't see a doe having the room to nurse 4 babies at once.    Goats are supposed to have 2 teats, not 4.  Cows are supposed to have 4 teats, not 6.  I've worked on cattle farms where the cows have extras. I just don't like it.  

Now, not everyone registers their goats, especially people who are raising commercial meat herds.  It's probably not a large issue with them, but I personally wouldn't keep an animal w/ more than 2 unless it was a pet or family milker.  I had a ewe lamb born w/ 4 teats this spring. The owner of the ram said, "Oh yeah, we get those all the time!"  :/  I didn't keep her because I personally don't want sheep with 4 teats...they're supposed to have 2.


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## Roll farms (Mar 1, 2011)

I have been *trying* to breed for 2 teats (1x1) in our Boer herd for years, probably because of my dairy goat beginnings....extra teats are just *wrong* to me, even though I know it (has been) is ok w/ Boers.

I've had many 4 teated does.  I have seen does w/ up to 7 teats. 

Very few of the 4 teated does I've milked have had functioning extras...most are just dead tissue.  I call them udder wattles.

I don't know HOW many people I've had say to me, "Well, you can always cut them off." when I've lamented that there were extra teats on a doeling I would have otherwise kept.

Yes, I could cut them off and not see them....but...that doesn't fix the genetics.

I have kept some 4 teated kids (Dallas being one) because of other qualities they have that I want / like....and I'm hoping to 'fix' the teats on their kids.  
I'm hoping her extra teats don't function, as I intend to milk her.

IMHO....Extra non-functioning teats probably kill as many kids as extra functioning teats "save"....a kid latches on and starves (no milk) and the unobservant producer will lose the kid.

I think all of the "They can feed extra kids." ...um...opinions...are just a way to excuse a flaw.  

2 teated dairy does can raise triplets...why couldn't a 2 teated boer (if she had enough milk)?

I've seen retired show (but still being bred) boer does w/ nasty-huge udders, I mean dragging the ground-huge.  Kids can barely nurse b/c they can't get low enough / under the teats.
But these does make "show winner" kids...so they keep on breeding them.
It doesn't matter how many teats the doe has...dragging the ground, nobody's nursing any of them.
Her daughters may look great at 1 or 2 yrs of age...but probably won't at 7 or 8.

To me, there are 2 groups of boer breeders...those who want MEAT animals (hardy, easy to breed and kid, parasite resistant), and those who want SHOW animals....but that's for another thread...

You asked about teat opinions and there you have mine.

ETA:  I think, though, that the sudden change(s) the ABGA is 'forcing' are BS....but...that's why I don't belong to the ABGA.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

Well said Roll!

After I started looking at pics to see what the heck the extra teats looked like I starting seeing pics of those udders dragging the ground.  I had no idea!  One website had this doe with apparently big time bloodlines and her description said all her kids now had to be bottled raised because her udder was dragging and the kids couldn't get to it.  As you've pointed out Roll, show herd.  Now, I know udder aesthetics aren't all that important in the meat goat world, but that's an udder that's not even FUNCTIONAL.  There is no possible way an extra teat or two is going to offset that kind of longevity issue, or all the extra work it takes to bottle feed kids in a herd where kids are normally dam raised.

7 teats... that is just plain weird.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I've seen retired show (but still being bred) boer does w/ nasty-huge udders, I mean dragging the ground-huge.  Kids can barely nurse b/c they can't get low enough / under the teats.
> But these does make "show winner" kids...so they keep on breeding them.
> It doesn't matter how many teats the doe has...dragging the ground, nobody's nursing any of them.
> Her daughters may look great at 1 or 2 yrs of age...but probably won't at 7 or 8.


We started out with only 2 teated, thought we researched the bloodlines far enough back, we still get 2X2, 2X3, fish-teats, non-functional teats, we try to cull most of them, or the better onse we use at the 4H meat goat show, but I have pretty much given up. I have 2 or 3 know that have multiple teats in the herd, I just got so tired of getting rid of some really nice looking girls.

I just bought a doe((6 yrs old)  to produce us some show whethers and she has a horrible udder, on the ground, 1x1 teats, but poor attachment of the udder, I was nervous that she has had mastitis, but all is going well with that. But nothing like putting your self in a situation that you have to get up in the middle of the night more than one time and teach the kids how to latch on and milk her out to get some of the wieght off of it.   But I am sure looking forward to seeing her kids in the 4H meat goat show.  

Are you all aware that Boer goats used to have 4 teats? Ofcourse they still only have two halves to the udder.


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## Roll farms (Mar 2, 2011)

Hmmm...I've never seen anything that said, "Boers used to have 4 teats."

I'm big on research, I'd love to see where that info is written / read up on it.

Then I *might* change / alter my opinion that "feeding extra kids" is just an excuse to explain away a flaw.

I figure someone, somewhere (maybe all the way back to Africa during the Boer's development....) saw a doe w/  4 teats feed 3 kids, told the story enough times, and it became 'true'....

Sort of like how all goats eat tin cans and 'goats will eat anything'.

As I said, since I milk almost all my does, I've had a lot of experience milking boers...probably more than the average boer breeder...since most of the extra teats I've had experience with are blind / non producing, I would imagine that most of them everywhere are.  
So...it's just an appendage w/ no purpose...NOT a benefit.


Nikki, that 7 teated doe was a FB registered Boer my sister bought for her daughter to show in 4-H.  She paid 300$ for the privilege.  

(You know how family can be...She wanted to 'beat my goats' and thought she could 'buy' a better one.  HAHAHAHA)

When she kidded, she wouldn't take care of her kids so my sister calls me in a panic to come help her get colostrum...I grabbed an udder, squeezed...and had MILK COME OUT OF 3 ORIFICES at once.

You had to milk her into a wide bucket to catch it all.

IMHO, The breeder should have been thrown out of their organization for not only selling her as a show animal (cluster teats are a flaw), but registering that monster to begin with.


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

Personally I find extra teats on any goat, meat included, to be disgusting.  I agree with Roll, the statement that many breeders make that extra teats feed extra kids is nothing more than an excuse to turn a blind eye to a defect.  Much in the same way that some dairy people excuse a horrific udder just because it produces lots of milk, or that ND breeders excuse grossly overheight animals because of their bloodlines, conformation or udder.

In each breeding a breeder plans, the GOAL should be to improve their breed...or to produce, in some instances, a hybred that improves on its parents and contributes to the goat community in some way.  

But, in a breed like Boers, if they enforce a 2 teat rule, all they're going to get is a bunch of animals showing that have had their extra teats removed.  The show world is the show world, and where there's a way to get around a fault - people WILL employ it.  Doesn't do a darn thing to improve the breed.

We attended the local 4H show last year.  We are in BIG TIME Boer country, with high dollar breeders and high dollar show goats.  The Boer breeders here also breed a few standard dairy breeds - Obers, Nubians, and Alpines to give the 4H kids something to show in that arena.  I was HORRIFIED when the junior does lined up, butts facing the crowd, and they had EXTRA TEATS and FISH TEATS.  So, now, obviously the Boer breeders who think extra teats are fine and dandy are breeding dairy goats and don't see an issue with them having extra teats, either.  I was so pleased when the ADGA judge who was judging moved those does to the end of the line and made a special statement about teat deformities.

Obviously, some education is needed around here.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

I didn't even think you could show a fish teat animal of any breed, I thought that was disqualification and you were asked to leave the show rink.


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I didn't even think you could show a fish teat animal of any breed, I thought that was disqualification and you were asked to leave the show rink.


It wouldn't be very nice to throw a bunch of young 4H kids out of the ring, would it?  But yes, at breed shows, they check every goat on the way into the ring...extra teats and fish teats, if they ever managed to get that far, would be asked to leave.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see, you are referring to a 4H class of JR. Doelings, our area only offers a 4H Meat goat class for our youth, no dairy, and no breed type classes of any kind, but you can show doelings in the meat goat class up against the whethers.  Ofcourse, being  a meat(whether) show they don't even look at the teat count.

We have two groups of does on our farm, does that give us off-spring for the meat(whether show) and does that give us off-spring for replacement animals to be sold to other farms to be used as future breeding stock.  If the line is throwing incorrect teats it ends up in the whether production group and if it consistantly throws good teat it ends up in the replacement breeding stock group. Ofcourse there are other factors to, but I am sticking to teats in this discussion.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 2, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Personally I find extra teats on any goat, meat included, to be disgusting.


Yes, but what do you REALLY think about them Kate?  

I have to tell you, I was pretty well horrified when I googled it.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

Maybe this is what I had read?


http://www.boergoatshome.com/genetic-goat-flaws.php


Teats: Boer goats generally have four teats. They were originally bred to raise high multiple kids, and have enough teats to take care of them. There is nothing wrong with four teats, in a Boer! (Six or eight teats are not good.) However, there is a flaw where two teats are so close together that they actually come out of the body on one base, and split at the end of the teat. This is called split teats, or fish teats (because the teat resembles a fish tail). This condition is not acceptable in the show ring, and may have some repercussions in the pasture as well. The theory suggests that either kids might not be able to get their mouth around the teat at all, or they may suck on one half of the teat while the other half drips milk into their nose.


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## Roll farms (Mar 2, 2011)

So....Yeah...One person's (the author of the book that excerpt was taken from) opinion, not really historic proof that they originally had 4 teats.

(That is in no way meant to be snarky to you, 20KOH.   )

All domesticated goat breeds "started" with 2 teats.  

The Middle Eastern goats that have had so much influence on boers (and Nubians) are all 2 teated.

Nature says that a goat can feed 2 kids on 2 teats just fine....
Only when humans hop in and start manipulating things and breeding for increased litter size do things go awry...again, that's JMHO.

If someone discovered that (wild example...) a goat w/ an overbite (and a fancy pedigree) could 'more easily grasp brush and eat more / faster' they would probably try and tell me it's not a flaw, but a benefit....but it 
doesn't make it true.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 2, 2011)

I guess I just read it somewhere and assumed it was fact, hadn't really given it a lot of thought, but I do wish the genius that decided to add extra teats to the boers would have reconsidered. I find it very annoying to have nice little doeling end up with 2 teats on one side and 3 on the other, then have to cull her.  Just when I think I have a blood-line going that isn't throwing extra teats, Bam, extra teats appear.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 3, 2011)

I would think if you had a doe with well-placed multiple, functioning teats, she would throw similar, wouldn't she? I think a lot of the problem with dummy teats comes from people not caring, banding them, or just flat-out ignoring them.

I'll admit, this has been a good discussion. I do think boer breeders need to focus more on udder quality and worry about teat placement later, and it would probably stop horrific udders from popping up all over the place, and eliminating any kind of need for extra teats.

Jack Mauldin does have some videos of multi-teated does feeding 3-4 kids at once with multiple, functioning teats, however, and it worked pretty well, but then, he also makes sure that all the teats are functioning, too, which is something I don't think a lot of people do.

At any rate, I'm linking to a few things I found on a quick Google search.
http://www.jackmauldin.com/management/two_teat_question.htm
http://www.jackmauldin.com/4_teats.htm
http://www.ramhbreeders.com/clean_teat.htm
http://www.boergoat-sa.com/page6.html
http://www.boergoatshome.com/how-to-choose-meat-goats.php


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## blufftonboers (Mar 7, 2011)

We raise boer goats and I LIKE 2 X 2 teats.  The reason is that my 2X2 does produce as much milk as my 1X1 does but there udder attachments are 100% better.  And yes they are almost always all or at lease 3 teat functional.  All of my does have originated from the same lines too so I don't think that genetics have anything to do with why my 1X1 attachments are not as good.  I have been raising goat for 20+ years started with Nubians and then went to Boer.  In that time I have only had mastitis 2 times and that was with my 1X1 teated boer does. I think it was because there udders were so big and hung closer to the "Stuff" to make an udder infection.  

My double teat girls teats always travel in a strait line for you dairy breeders just think of a teat being about 3 fingerwidths higher on each side of the toward the foreudder attachment.

I think that this new rule is horrible and find it discouraging.  Many breeders have been trying to breed for double teats for up to 10 years.  Those genetics are deep in those herds and will be very hard if not impossible to breed out.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 7, 2011)

blufftonboers said:
			
		

> We raise boer goats and I LIKE 2 X 2 teats.  The reason is that my 2X2 does produce as much milk as my 1X1 does but there udder attachments are 100% better.  And yes they are almost always all or at lease 3 teat functional.  All of my does have originated from the same lines too so I don't think that genetics have anything to do with why my 1X1 attachments are not as good.  I have been raising goat for 20+ years started with Nubians and then went to Boer.  In that time I have only had mastitis 2 times and that was with my 1X1 teated boer does. I think it was because there udders were so big and hung closer to the "Stuff" to make an udder infection.
> 
> My double teat girls teats always travel in a strait line for you dairy breeders just think of a teat being about 3 fingerwidths higher on each side of the toward the foreudder attachment.
> 
> I think that this new rule is horrible and find it discouraging.  Many breeders have been trying to breed for double teats for up to 10 years.  Those genetics are deep in those herds and will be very hard if not impossible to breed out.


HOw consistant do they throw properly placed 2x2 teats, do you end up with a lot of fish teats?


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## blufftonboers (Mar 7, 2011)

We have about 75% that throw 2X2 teats and the others are 1X1 teats.  We have two does that throw fish teats or extra teats but there kids are always sold for market wethers and market does to area county fairs and they always do well so we keep the moms.  When it comes to market goats you don't eat the teats.  And these 2 moms can sucessfully feed and care for there kids. 

I wounder if they are changing the rule because alot of good breeders have been getting excused from one show for split teats and at the next show they have been winning because that judge conciders them double teets.  If there is more than a 50% division between the 2 teats they have been considered double teats.  But if they are close it comes down to the judges opinion.  I like personaly like more of a division than 50% I like to fit a few fingers between them.

I think that alot of the problem is that when people buy a buck they don't think to look at his teats because he's a boy.  A buck is half the genetic makeup of your herd and too many people have sold a three teated buck or fishteated buck and the buyer never thinks to look.  This is true for our clients.  They are ready to buy and we will point out to them that the buck they are looking at is 2 teated or single teated.  And they would have never thought to look before that.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 7, 2011)

We originally purchased 1x1 does and a 1x1 buck, yes we looked,plus we looked at the parents and we still end up with an occasional fish teat or really close to being fish teats. I got so frustrated getting rid of a nice little doeling with extra teats that I kept a couple of them and use their offspring  as show whethers. At our fair you can show does or bucks in the whether class. Or I sell them without their papers as replacement does to commercial breeders.  It seems like if you didn't keep culling them out, you would eventually end up with an entire herd of extra teated goat, some fish-teated, some really close, some with 3 on each side.   

We have mostly percentage, so maybe that is the reason why we see such inconsistancy.


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## blufftonboers (Mar 7, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with that.  If you are not breeding for ABGA standard boer goats.  And honestly we are starting to get away from that too.  We have been focusing our herd more on market wethers and less on breeding style animals.  If your doe is able to raise and feed her offspring and you are raising them to be sold and shown as market animals sometimes you have to sacrifice one thing for another.  Like a great looking, thick, long, larged muscled doe with a fish teat.  We have one this year that was going to be a 4-H project but she has one of the biggest butts I have ever seen on a doe and of course a fish teat (she is out of 1 of our 2 that throw them) but I am really thinking about keeping her and taking the risk.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 7, 2011)

blufftonboers said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with that.  If you are not breeding for ABGA standard boer goats.  And honestly we are starting to get away from that too.  We have been focusing our herd more on market wethers and less on breeding style animals.  If your doe is able to raise and feed her offspring and you are raising them to be sold and shown as market animals sometimes you have to sacrifice one thing for another.  Like a great looking, thick, long, larged muscled doe with a fish teat.  We have one this year that was going to be a 4-H project but she has one of the biggest butts I have ever seen on a doe and of course a fish teat (she is out of 1 of our 2 that throw them) but I am really thinking about keeping her and taking the risk.


Thankyou for the information and welcome  to the board.


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