# Magnum- the unfolding/unravelling story of our LGD



## ChickenMomma (Aug 21, 2020)

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## ChickenMomma (Aug 21, 2020)

Anyone?


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 21, 2020)

No trainer here, but I've successfully raised several LGD's over the years.  I think he needs lots of leash time and try to take away his opportunity to fail.  I have an LGD puppy that likes to flop over (for belly rubs) every time you get close to her.  It's a challenge to get her up to walk, but you just have to be persistent.  

There is a group called Farei Kennels that has info on facebook about their training philosophy. Pretty easy to look that up - lots of people swear by their techniques.  Good luck!


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 21, 2020)

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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 21, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> Your pictures of Cowboy are like dreams of mine.


Thanks!

Cowboy is pretty darn special!    Not sure I'm totally responsible for his success - but he's the best I've ever had whatever the reason.   There can be a huge investment in time and energy to get one of these dogs to the point where it "clicks" for them.  And, shhhhh, don't tell anybody that he had a flew 'blips' along the way, lol.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 21, 2020)

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## Rammy (Aug 21, 2020)

@Ridgetop


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 21, 2020)

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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 21, 2020)

Sounds like a plan!


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## Ridgetop (Aug 22, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> I know we have done some things wrong with him, but I am willing to work with him and help him be like the stories I have read of wonderful LGDs. I know now that him coming to the house after breaking out on the first night was a bad sign, I know now that when picking him out among the litter the most excited and hyper one was not the best pick, and I know he shouldn't be in that kennel, but I cant risk him hurting the goats unintentionally or eating a chicken, and tethering him in the field with him just leads to him escaping and/or tearing the fencing off the posts trying to.



OK.  You know that you picked the wrong puppy.  You know that you made mistakes.  We all have done that so let's forget about that and move on.  

First, were his parents any kind of livestock guardians?  I mean, were they and the puppies with sheep and/or goats at all times?  What kind of livestock did they guard?  Were they _successful_ LGDs.  Not all LGDs are great guardians. Some are better at ll around ranch patrol.  They bond to the flock but are just as happy to lay on the porch and protect the family and property.  They will still keep predators from the goats.  Some are just not good guardians.  Sometimes you get one in a litter that prefers people to a flock no matter how much he/she was exposed to livestock as a pup.  this temperament can still protect the ranch.  I'm telling you this so you won't feel that you have caused his preference to people.  It is possible that he was bonded to people at his prior home instead of to livestock.  You have to understand that great LGDs who instinctively do everything perfectly come along only once or twice in a life time. They are the canine equivalent of a Mozart, Beethoven, or Einstein.  The others must be trained.  

Since your puppy loves the goats but they run away from him in terror the problem is not with him, but with your goats.   *THEY* must be trained to accept *him*.  It is no wonder he leaves their pasture to find you if they are abandoning him.  It is lonesome for him if they don't like him.  Try to understand his point of view.  At his last home the goats were his friends.  They liked him.  At your house they are mean to him and show that they want no part of him.  Why should he stay in the pasture to be with "the mean girls".  They need to be brought in one by one and introduced to him so they accept him as their herd buddy.  He can't guard a bunch of animals that run from him.  They might just run from him into the jaws of a predator!  Most flocks that are trained to accept LGDs will seek the company of their guardians.  When danger threatens they go to the LGD for protection.  If you have a small area where you can put one or two goats with the puppy so they get acquainted it will help.

Second, *HE IS A BABY EVEN AT 5 MONTHS OLD.*  HE WILL BE A PUPPY UNTIL HE IS 2 YEARS OLD.  That doesn't mean that he won't guard until then, just that he is a puppy and will have some puppy behaviors till he is 2.  Training will take care of most of this but there will be some behavioral issues that will crop up at certain ages.  Play behavior with seep and goats is one.  It occurs around 12 months.  The puppy will have one "bestie" in the flock that it *loves, loves, loves!  *This love will show up when the puppy tries to play with its "bestie".  Ears will be bitten and legs slashed.  You will think the dog is attacking the animal.  Yes, it is biting the animal but ony because that is the way puppies play with each other.  The sheep or goat will not be able to stop this behavior because it will be young.  To stop the dog doing this yu will need an older tougher animal with which to put the puppy.  The older tougher animal will butt or otherwise discipline the pup.  The pup will eventually outgrow this puppy play behavior but you will have to step in and prevent the pup from injuring the young stock or "bestie".

Third, some of the escape behavior may be the breed of dog.  We had Pyrenees for 25 years and now have Anatolians.  Our Pyrs were lovely animals, sweet and friendly towards all the people that came over.  Our children's friends could play with the baby goats without any danger from those Pyrs.  They were excellent guardians, BUT they did not stay with the flock.  Instead they all set a perimeter boundary and guarded everything inside that boundary.  *THEIR BOUNDARY WAS NOT OUR PROPERTY BOUNDARY.   *Their perimeter boundary was 100 acres. Our property is 6 acres.  You can see the problem here.  Pyrenees can *climb* a 6' fence like a cat.  They don't need to jump over it.  They can also dig out.  They can squeeze through a piece of stock panel missing one wire.  If their head will fit through they can compress their bodies like a cat and ooze through.  I have seen them so these things.  Our Pyrs were impossible to keep inside any fences.  Now that the children are grown and we don't have lots of strangers in our yard we switched to a sharper tempered dog.  We got an Anatolian, then a second, and finally when we had a terrible coyote problem after wildfires, a third.  The first Anatolian was a trained 18 month old bitch.  The second and third were puppies.  These dogs are completely devoted to their sheep.  They do not leave the property since the sheep don't leave the property.  They guard within our fences.  I will admit that because we live o a steep mountain the slopes have sloughed so the fence on the front slope went from 5' to 3'.  We attached extension posts and wire to raise the perimeter fence to 8' high when we got our last puppy.  In case of a predator outside the fence that the dogs think they need kill, we did not want them to learn that they could jump the fence.  We also put chain link to the bottom of the wire fence and spread it onto the ground on the inside of the property about 2'.  The grass and brush has grown through it and it forms an undiggable barrier.  We had a Weimaraner who spent his time digging under and out of our 6 acres so we did that for him.  It really works.  Like I said we live on steep ground and during rainstorms the ground would wash out under the fences in the gully.  The chain link trick stopped that.  Some LGD owners use a hot wire top and bottom on the fence to stop dogs going under or over.  You can try that.  For it to be successful you need to train the dog to the wire so he knows that he will get zapped by it.  

Continue working on LGD obedience with your puppy.  Remember that LGD obedience is not regular dog obedience. LGDs think about things and judge for themselves whether they should obey commands.  If they judge that you or the flock is in danger they will pay no attention to your commands.  Coming to their name when called, walking on leash, understanding the "No", "Back Off", "Drop it", etc. are all you need.  

Also, just because your puppy doesn't want to spend all his time in a boring pasture with the goats does not mean that he will not know the whereabouts of every predator near the property.  You said you have 1.5  acres.  He will be able to get to the flock in a heartbeat if there is danger.  LGDs are deceptively slow looking but can match a grayhound for speed when necessary for short bursts.  We have 6 very steep acres with our house on the ridge top splitting the property in half.  On the front we have a pasture, in the back and on the side we have a deep gully and steep pasture as well as a smaller pasture for the nursing lambs.  Our dogs can get to every inch in 30 seconds if there is a predator.  Remember that your LGD will eventually mark the territory and let predators know he is on the job by barking.  LGDs protect by letting the neighborhood predators know that they have a big fearless dog to face off to. Most predators, unless they are starving, will avoid your property once your LGD establishes himself.  Predators are too smart to risk their lives with your LGD when they can get something easier down the road.

I hope this will help you.  I haven't given much training tips, just trying to help you understand the behavior of your LGD puppy.  Understanding behavior is the first step to successful training.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 22, 2020)

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## Baymule (Aug 22, 2020)

I have 2 Great Pyrenees. Paris, the female, was our first. She was a free throw away because she killed chickens. Her owners did everything wrong, including punishing her terribly. By the time we got her, she was a 1 year old psychotic mess. She is now 11 years old and I still refer to her as the Psycho Bitch. I was planning on getting a LGD "someday" when we moved to some land. But there she was, free, and going to a bad end if we did not take her. So Paris came to our tiny back yard in the middle of town. 

Here is her story.






						My Pyrenees Doesn't Guard Sheep, Goats or Chase Bears  Hawk! post #26
					

Paris is our girl's name. She was given to us as a 10 month old because she was killing chickens. Ya'll know the story.......a youngster turned loose on 3 acres full of chickens with no supervision. Her owners would find dead chickens with no teeth marks, but wet (slobbered) and dead. So she was...



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						Paris is Calling Me With Her Eyes!
					

Every evening, Paris parks herself in front of the patio glass doors, staring intently through them straight at me, sitting in my recliner. This is after I feed her. She won't eat until I go outside and praise her. Actually, I gush praise like a broken water main. I tell her, You are so smart...



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Then we moved 160 miles north to Lindale, Tx. We had fenced the backyard for her before we moved. Several times I tried to move her to a pasture, but she would have none of it. Now, she has the backyard, we ran a fence to the back of the sheep barn, so she has the side pasture too. I can put her in the front pasture for a short time before she gets the heebie-jeebies and wants to go back to her "safe" place. Yeah, weird dog. Right now, I have 45 Cornish Cross chicks in a chicken tractor in the side pasture. She lays near it, guarding them from snakes. Love the Psycho Bitch!






						Paris Has Begun Lamb Training
					

We built a small pen in the backyard and weaned the lambs 3 days ago. We put the lambs in Paris territory. For those who don't know Paris, her post is below.  http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/my-pyrenees-doesnt-guard-sheep-goats-or-chase-bears-hawk-post-26.23771/  We no longer live in town...



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I am no LGD trainer. I am posting what I did, it may or may not work for you. You may be able to glean from my efforts/mistakes something of value to you. I chronicled our adventures and got lots of helpful ideas, also to help anyone else with puppies, so that they could possible use anything I did with my dogs. 

Now for Trip, he was an adorable cute puppy that we got 3 weeks before we moved. I know, bad timing, but there he was and we seized the opportunity. 






						New Pyrenees Puppy!
					

Last night I was looking at Pyrenees rescues online.  DH asked why. Me- I told him that we would have to have another dog, especially when we got sheep and had to keep the ram separate from the ewes. DH- Why? Me- Because you put the ram in when you want the ewes bred or else you never know when...



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						Trip Is A Sheep Guardian
					

When we finally got sheep, all Paris wanted to do was attack them and all Trip wanted to do was play with and chase them. The sheep liked neither idea and all was chaos. I tried and tried and got nowhere. Frustrated, I just had to quit trying with the dogs. :smack  In the last few months, I have...



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I tried to have Muscovy ducks. Trip ate them. He even snarled and lunged at me, protecting his kill. The Alpha Bitch in me grabbed a handy 4' pine limb on the ground and beat the snot out of him, doing some growling and snarling of my own. Trip stood his ground and i was wondering how that would play out, but didn't back down. He finally broke and ran, with me in hot pursuit, still landing blows with the pine limb. Extreme? yes. What was I supposed to do? Congratulate him and let him keep it? Aww HELL NO! I took his kills, and disposed of them. He killed a couple more and I gave the last one away. No ducks for me. Trip thinks that they are on the menu. 

Fast forward to the past few months. We added a new puppy, a female. Talk about upsetting the pack order! I need to make a thread about the anguish that caused! The 3 boys totally derailed and went off the deep end. 

I had a trio of guineas with 4 half grown chicks, plus one barn chicken, named Joy Chicken. Joy Chicken was the first to go. Trip laid beside her in the pasture, telling me that there was a problem. Who did it? No idea. Then a guinea hen, then another. I was upset. Trying to figure out who was doing the damage, I separated dogs, kept the puppy in the house, did everything I could think of, to no avail. This played out over several weeks, with me getting more and more frustrated. 

I found Trip eating a guinea chick one morning and went off on him. I put the puppy, Sheba, and her buddy, Sentry, in Pasture #1 that evening, leaving Trip and Parker (Great Dane/Labrador farm dog) in the yard (about 1 1/2 acres) for the night. I went out later and found that Trip had jumped IN the pasture and was dining on another Guinea chick. I blew up. I snatched the guinea, beat him with it and chased him. I threw a board at him. I was screaming, cussing and hurling insults. We made 4 laps around the pasture before he jumped the gate and ran to the porch. I followed, closing the porch door. My husband was inside, taking a nap. He awoke to a screaming mad woman beating the dog with a dead guinea and a flyswatter, running up and down the length of the porch. I finally got tired and my husband let Trip in, and routed him to the back yard. I kept him on lock down for 3 weeks (with Paris-we let her out for free time every day). I did not talk to him or acknowledge him in any way. I loved on Paris, but totally ignored Trip. The guinea killing stopped, I only have 2 left now, both males.

I finally talked to Trip and let him out. I walked him around, pointing out the guineas, saying MINE. I think he got the message. 2 neighbor's guineas showed up here and the fluttering of new guineas caught his attention and he "herds" them. I go out and scold him and he stops. This is where we are now.

Trip has become more of a yard/farm guard, guarding the sheep and poultry (when he isn't eating them) from predators. He jumps fences with ease and goes where he wants. I'm ok with that.

TRAINING NEVER STOPS.

And a new dog........






						Sentry, Baymule’s Livestock Guard Dog
					

We have two Great Pyrenees, Paris and Trip. Paris is 10 and Trip will be 5 in November. Now is a good time to introduce and train a new puppy. I have been wanting an Anatolian. I was on a Facebook Sheep and goat group when I saw a post for a very Anatolian looking puppy. I kept going back to...



					www.backyardherds.com
				




And a new puppy.....






						Sheba-A Marvelous Gift
					

I was contacted by a person wishing to remain anonymous, with an offer of an Anatolian puppy. As I read the generous offer to BJ, we both burst into tears. Because of Sentry’s hip dysplasia and surgery and our decision not to put him through another surgery, this person felt bad for us. Needless...



					www.backyardherds.com
				




And the story continues. Every day brings new challenges and new rewards. I have evolved from 1 LGD to 4, plus a Great Dane/Labrador (our 2nd one) farm dog, giving us a total of 5 big dogs. Yes. I am insane. 

I am 11 years into my LGD experience. No expert by any means, but I have come a long way. My dogs have taught me more than I will ever teach them.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 22, 2020)

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## Baymule (Aug 22, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> @Ridgetop thank you so much for the thorough and detailed information.  I had never looked at the issue being on the goats side of things and this brings new light to the situation.  I will start putting one or two in his kennel with him, supervised of course, for short sessions and go from there.
> Thank you for the info on the Pyrenees too.  You described him perfectly.  He LOVES people and he loves the animals, he is just so playful right now that they don't understand his behavior.   It also makes sense that he would be more of a property guardian, this has just really helped.  I can't thank you enough.  We have over 60 acres of property, but the 1.5 is the fenced in pasture portion and its right behind our home in a valley. about 7 acres is cleared land and the rest is heavily wooded. We take walks through our property and into the woods (we have a walking trail in and out of them) and he is ever on the alert, flopping around and investigating everything.  I do see instincts in him to mark his territory but there is just a lot of puppy.  Its hard to remember that when he can put his paws on my shoulders. I will keep you posted on our adventure with him and I am hopeful now that we are on the right track.  Thank you so much!



You have unknowingly contributed to his roaming instincts. Understand this; everything his feet stand on is HIS. Even further, everything his eyes sees is HIS. So by walking him around on more of your property, you are telling him that it is HIS and it ok for him to guard that too. @Ridgetop please correct me if I am wrong. GP's take ownership seriously. 

Another thing, are you letting him stand up, placing feet on your shoulders so you can give him hugs? This has nowhere to go but down. As he grows and matures, this will become a dominance issue. He will "dominate" you this way, you will become his subordinate, he will be your boss. YOU must be the Alpha Dog, strong in behavior, but firm and fair. Sometimes my dogs hump each other, not for sex, but to work out pack order and it is a dominant behavior. A snarling quick fight ensues and pack order is reestablished. I have 2 intact males that are close to losing their testicles, Parker and Sentry. I like dogs to reach full growth at around 2 years old, before neutering them. Life is more peaceful (for me) without testicles ruling the dogs brains. LOL Again, @Ridgetop correct me if I am wrong about a dog placing it's feet on shoulders. 

I hope I have said nothing that hurts your feelings. I do not wish to cause anguish on your part, but to share my feeble experiences and my own learning along the way. I am still a work in progress. @Ridgetop has over 30 years with LGDs and many others here on the forum have vastly more experience and knowledge than I do. I post dog journals to chronicle theirs and mine experiences and for the helpful comments and training ideas from others. It might be a good thing for you to make this your puppy's journal, change the title and put his name in it. Months or years from now, as you go back and read it, you can see how far he (and you) have come. Post his progress as he grows.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 22, 2020)

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## Baymule (Aug 22, 2020)

When he jumps up at you, do a quick HARD knee jerk into his belly (or any place) while sternly saying DOWN! Yes, you want it to hurt. Mean? No. Discipline? Yes. Best case scenario, you flip him on his back and stand over him reading him the riot act. Remember, the Alpha Bitch bites, snarls, growls and rolls puppies on their backs into submission. This is reserved for BAD behavior, not something that you do for every tiny offense.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 22, 2020)

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## B&B Happy goats (Aug 22, 2020)

I feel for you lol, listen to Bay and Ridgetop...you and  Magnum  will get there....with a lot of patience  on your part and earning his trust, you will become partners


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 24, 2020)

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## Baymule (Aug 24, 2020)

Patience grasshopper.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 25, 2020)

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## Beekissed (Aug 25, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> I'm having a hard time discerning when I need to be stern and what is puppy behavior that he will outgrow.  He is so full of energy and obnoxious right now, I feel like the whole training session I am correcting his behavior so much that we get nothing accomplished.  I guess repetition and consistency is the key.  Our weekend was quite hectic and I'm very tired and that's distorting my common sense right now, I love that dog to pieces but I also cant stand him, lol.



Daily controlled walks on a slip leash will help get that energy out.   If you can, make him wear a pack and load it with water bottles to give it wt.   Getting him focused on a task~walking calmly on a loose leash~just may drain some of that energy so that he can listen to you better.  

Take treats in your pocket and don't feed him prior to a training session.  I've noticed my dogs pay much more attention to me if they are hungry and they know I carry food.  Don't let him sniff, linger or otherwise have his own agenda on the walk.  Just walk briskly, pause when you want, go when you want but don't give him any cues....this will get him watching you for when you will go or stop instead of doing his own thing.  When you stop, make him sit down beside you each time, then give praise and a treat for that.   

The slip leash is sort of self correcting...when he pulls, it tightens on him and when he stops pulling, it loosens.   If you need to give a correction, a quick tug and release along with the correction word will give him the idea of what you are wanting.   Never use a harness...that gives them more pulling power and you can't correct them when they pull.  

Never allow the jumping...calmly step on his back feet each time he jumps up.   If you shove him or jerk him when he does that, often these dogs will think you are trying to play.  Stepping on his feet leaves no doubt that pain follows jumping on a human.   

Don't dwell on puppy behavior vs bad behavior....any behavior that is undesirable needs to be taken out of his wheelhouse, no matter the age. 

If you feel yourself getting angry or frustrated, he can feel it too and it will escalate his behaviors....stand up straight, take a deep breath, restore yourself to calm and go forward.   End each session on a positive note...for me this is the feeding ritual.   

I dish out the food and instruct the dog to lie down...if he starts to get up when I place the dish on the ground, I take it up again and make him lie down again.   Pretty soon a smart dog will get the message....no food unless I'm lying down.   Then keep him lying down a distance from the bowl until he is calm and his eyes are on you, instead of on the food.   Then let him go to the food and give him much praise.  I also take this time to "claim" his food by putting my hands in the bowl, while he's eating, and messing with the food...if he tries to block me or acts anxious, he gets a correction and has to step back from the food.   I repeat this until the dog automatically backs away from the food when my hand goes in the feed or near the bowl/bone/treat, etc.  

This way he learns I'm not actually taking his food from him and he gets it back, but I'm allowed to touch it, move it, remove it, etc. without him growing anxious or aggressive.   I also repeat this with my young grandchildren until the dogs know that they too can touch the food and claim it and the dog has to remain calm and polite throughout.  

Two young Anatolians in the down and wait prior to feeding.   




 

All of this training has a point....it puts you in the leadership position and the dog in the follower.   This really needs to happen if you are going to have any measure of success on bad behaviors.   Some dogs require more of this training than others....if they require too many refreshers, that dog doesn't stay here for long.  I don't tolerate a stupid or stubborn animal on the place.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 26, 2020)

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## Deaconblues911 (Aug 26, 2020)

Our Great Pyranees pup had to have a small log attached to his collar to teach him to slow down around the goats. We did that for four days...problem solved. Our Anatolian had to be short tied around the goats for one day. Problem solved. These are old, Turkish herdsman tricks used to settle their guardians. It also helps to have the pups introduced with full grown, working LGDs. They will put the pup in its place and teach it to do the job.

You can see the "log" on the collar in the pic. It's not harmful, but its clunky and heavy which slows them considerably.


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## farmer mike (Aug 26, 2020)

This may come across as negative.  If so apologies up front.  It doesn't sound like your dog has the correct temperament to be a LGD, I would cut your losses and rehome it rather than battle with it for years and years.  We sadly went through a similar experience with a service dog for my paralyzed son.  2 years of training, thousands of dollars, my son was bonded to it, >1000 hrs of professional trainer time.  The dog was spastic, wanted to play, was not calm, was excitable, would ignore commands and run off, dragged over my son's wheelchair, etc.  We cut our losses.  Several trainers engaged and determined that no amount of training would fix the dog's unsuited temperament, it should have been screened out as a puppy to be someone's pet.


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## Oakknollfarms (Aug 26, 2020)

My best advice for you would be to start basic obedience training with a dog trainer. Once you have that down, you will have gained the training tools that you need in order to complete his training for the tasks that you need from him.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 26, 2020)

Thank you all, I'll stop asking for advice.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 26, 2020)

@ChickenMomma - please don't feel you need to stop asking for advice!   There are many of us here who have worked with dogs that simply needed a bit more structure.  I have never given up on an LGD and I've never been disappointed in the end.  

LGD's are, and have been, bred for their jobs for generation upon generation.  I think your puppy is bored and has a lot of energy and is definitely worth working with.  Please don't be dissuaded.  You got excellent, detailed advice from @Beekissed.  Those are tried and true methods that will help you and Magnum.  

Service dogs are different.  They are not necessarily bred to do their work.  Basic obedience may help but not all LGD's think they should sit just because you ask them to, lol.  They are bred to think independently and that's what they do.  There may come a point where you decide he's not for you - but I think he will be worth putting in the effort.


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## Beekissed (Aug 26, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> @Beekissed thank you for so much good information.
> 
> Would a shock collar be useful in training?  We had an underground fence for an hard headed irish setter we had years ago, and that was the only way we could keep him in our perimeter.  (he was caught by animal control 4 miles away from our home, dragging a leash).  The underground wiring has since been damaged so it is no longer in use, but Magnum reminds me of this dog.  We paid a pretty penny for Magnum so getting rid of him is not an option.   He is getting to a size where he is almost pulling me on the leash instead of me directing him and I am having a very hard time controlling him. I just dont want to do anything with a shock collar if it would be detrimental to his nature or instincts that we want to keep.



I wouldn't use a shock collar as a go to first.   I'd advise that slip leash...I just pass the leash through the handle and slip it over the dog's head, keeping the whole thing high up behind his ears.  A quick jerk on that will stop that pulling of you...use your whole body, if you have to.   Every single time he barely even pulls on that, give the jerk and release.   Sounds like it will be a battle of strength and wills at first, but he should get the message.  

Not sure how long you've had him, but if you just got him, whoever sold him ought to be ashamed of themselves.   If you've had him for some time and are just now getting to training him on the leash, I'd not make that mistake with the next dog you get.   The very first time their feet hit the ground at your place is the time to start leash training....and I do mean as soon as they jump down out of the car.   

I never use a prong, choke chain or any other painful training implement with leash training....you want the walk to be as enjoyable as possible and you want him to like the leash, the walk, the experience.   So, positive reinforcement along with that quick tug and release with command sound will get you further.  Shock collars are more for stopping unwanted behaviors like chasing....the shock will stop them and move them elsewhere and you won't want them moving away from the shock while you have a leash on him.   Defeats the purpose.  You want him walking with you, moving forward, watching you for cues on where to go next. 

My then 2 yr old granddaughter, walking Ben at 6 mo. of age....





And my then 81 yr old mother.....





A good place to go for learning how to walk a stubborn  or wild dog on a leash is Cesar Milan vids on YT...he has some great success with such things and his methods really do work.


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## Beekissed (Aug 26, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> Thank you all, I'll stop asking for advice.



Don't stop asking!   That's how you learn.....you are going to get a lot of different advice from a lot of different people.   Take what you can use, see if it works, then leave the rest.    Advice is always on a take it or leave it basis.


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## MoreAU (Aug 26, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> Thank you all, I'll stop asking for advice.


Please don't! Your questions and all the great answers are teaching me my own mistakes and, hopefully, how to correct them. 
Thanks!


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 26, 2020)

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## Ridgetop (Aug 26, 2020)

*Never stop asking questions!*



ChickenMomma said:


> Our weekend was quite hectic and I'm very tired and that's distorting my common sense right now, I love that dog to pieces but I also cant stand him, lol.


I have often felt like this about my children when they were young.  Oh wait, it still happens occasionally!  LOL

Do not use a shock collar.  these don't work because the dog knows when it is on and only behaves then.  You want to be able to allow the dog to be without the shock collar and trust him to behave appropriately.  Shock collars are unnecessarily harsh.

Livestock Guardian Dogs are a completely different type of dog than any you will ever have.  Each one can be different from the next.  This difference is present between breeds, and also in the litter.  Pups in the same litter often have differences in temperament and aptitude.  That is why very experienced and knowledgeable breeders keep their pups for 12 weeks and test them for livestock, ranch, and personal pet aptitude before placing them in the appropriate homes.

You said that you chose this puppy yourself.  Since you did not have experience with grading LGD pups, you said chose the bouncy playful one.  The best livestock guardian pups are the ones that are slightly more serious.  They are not so excitable, but they don't hang back either.  Having established that you have one of the excitable puppies, your training will be harder but it isn't impossible to turn this little wild fellow into a good LGD.  Children take a long time to raise and train.  It is the same with puppies. 

As to training him, you are using time honored obedience techniques.  You can't do that with LGDs.  *Training him to watch you with his eyes and pay attention to you while you are walking him on leash in not the training you want to do with an LGD. * This is proper obedience work for normal dogs.  I have trained plenty of obedience dogs and you want their entire attention to be concentrated on you during the entire exercise.   It won't work for a good LGD because their genetics are telling them *not* to watch *YOU *but to be completely aware of their surroundings at all times looking for threats to the flock and you.  In order to do this, they have to be aware of and investigate everything around them and notice everything around them and the flock.  If you have ever watched a training film on Seeing Eye Dogs, the trainer walks along and when they pass an obstacle the trainer raps it with the cane to make the dog notice it.  Overhead branches are shaken, steps are pointed out, etc.  Those trainers are training the dog to *NOTICE* *surrounding obstacles because the Seeing Eye dog already has its attention fastened firmly on the trainer.   *The Seeing Eye dog has to be taught to look around and notice everything in order to guide his blind master.  The LGD already notices everything.  Training him to keep his eyes focused completely on you goes against his natural working instincts.  Watching *you* closely won't allow him to notice the unnatural waving of the bush near the sheep where the coyote is creeping in downwind. 

Yes, YOU must be the Alpha.  But throw away most of what you have ever learned about standard obedience training. You can teach him many things.  Other things he will never be foolproof at or even learn because they will be foreign to his LGD DNA.  This learning and teaching will go on for at least 2 years. 

Teaching the puppy to sit and wait before you give the command to eat is good.  Otherwise the 00+ lb. dog can knock the food bowl out of your hand as you pause to negotiate the step or close the door.  Bad dog!  Teach him to wait.  

The wait command is important because you don't want him to push ahead of you into a sheep pen or other space.  You are the alpha.  The Alpha ALWAYS goes first, just like they get first chance at food.

Speaking of food, just like Beekissed I train all my dogs that all food is MINE.  I take the food away while he is eating.  As pups I even pry open the mouth and take the food out of the mouth, promptly correcting any attempts to growl or snap.  I do this with all dogs since my small toddlers might decide to do this.  Now I have grandchidren and access to the food bowls by anyone is something that is to be allowed,  There will be no food aggression issues on this property.

Walking on leash.  Why?  The LGD doesn't have to learn to heel.  You only want the dog to behave on the leash in case he goes to the vet etc.  You don't walk around the perimeter of the property until you have a fence there.  Like Baymule says, he will expect to protect that great unfenced expanse since it is HIS.

Jumping on you - bring your knee up sharply into his gut.  You should hear his "oof" as you knock the air out of him.  Keep walking into him as if he isn't there,  If he persists watch closely because some smart dogs realize if the come at you from the front you will raise a knee and will start to circle around and jump on yu from the back.  Once you have knocked the air out of him with your knee, call him to you and fuss over him - do not apologize - just act like he did it to himself,  I even coax the dog to think it can jump up again and repeat the correction.  As soon as he comes to greet you without jumping up load on the praise.

Walking beside you will never happen unless there is a threat right next to you.  Then the dog ill get between you and the threat and try to drive it off by barking or charging at it.  Normal LGD behavior when yiu are outside is to run ahead of you to check for any threat in the pasture.  Having established that it is safe they will circle back to you to reassure you that all is safe.  Trained herding dogs will walk sedately at heel until given the command to work.  LGDs are already working.

You will also have to teach him to respect new mothers that are lambing or kidding around him.  Some LGDs love the newborns so much that they mistake the aggression shown by the new mothers towards the dog as aggression to the babies  They will "steal" the baby and try to drive off the aggressive mother.  Unless you kid or lamb in an enclosed pen you will have to oversee his first introduction to this.

Got to rush to an appointment.  More later.   If you IM me I will give you my phone number and we can talk.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 26, 2020)

Ask 10 people the same question and you will get 10 different answers.  As previously said: glean through the advice.

I do believe in obedience training for LGD's.  Maybe I shouldn't call it obedience - I train for respect.  Comes with being the Alpha.  My dogs all walk quietly on a leash.  My dogs will sit and "show me their tummy" on request.  Why? Because it makes it easier to medicate or trim toenails or just check them for fleas.  It's just good dog citizenship. 

I would ask Magnum to learn these simple behaviors.  They will give you both confidence when they are accomplished and help establish that bond and more importantly will establish YOU as the alpha.  My dogs are both bonded to me and the stock.  Recently they were faced with a conundrum that I think they reacted appropriately to.  I was so proud and pleased with them and know that they have MY back along with the stock.

During  a stock count earlier this year I noticed that I was missing a couple of pigs.  I found a place in the furthest corner of my pasture where the fence had been tampered with and pigs had been baited to go through.  I fixed the fence and didn't lose any more stock for awhile.  A few weeks after that I was outside and heard a couple of pops (gunshots from a small caliber - like a 22) coming from that area and all the goats and pigs were high-tailing it back to the barn with the LGD's pushing them and looking back over their shoulders.

I went ballistic.  I headed out to that part of the fence, screaming and cussing and threatening to rip the heads off of anybody who was stealing more pigs from me.  The weeds were tall and I couldn't see anything and couldn't be seen either.  DH was outside the fence reminding me that I wasn't armed and I said I didn't care - I'd get 'em with my bare hands.  Pretty stupid in hindsight, lol.

As I looked back to answer DH I noticed Cowboy standing in front of the barn, holding the goats inside.  He looked at the goats, looked at me and came charging to me.  He glued himself to my side and wouldn't leave.  A couple seconds later Missy was on the other side of me.  They literally had me sandwiched between them and they wouldn't go away even though I "ordered" them back to the barn.  They obviously were not happy with me, but I think they decided I needed them more than the goats did at that point.

I tell this as an indication of how the dogs perceive and react to threat.  You want your dog to actually think, and if needed, take independent action.  The goats were safe in the barn and they saw me going to address the threat - so they were my back up.  All's well that ends well and there have been no more stock losses, lol.  I think some folks are more afraid of 'crazy' than wanting a little free meat.

Please don't give up!


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## breezy2u (Aug 26, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> Magnum and I just had our first "come to Jesus" episode, it started when he pulled the leash so hard that it came out of my hands and he then ran from me. My commands that I was just starting to feel good about didn't work, he would turn and look at me and then bolt in the other direction.  Well, I finally caught him.  Flipped him over on his back and got on top of him on my hands and knees yelling and telling him how rotten he was and how I was in charge here.  The entire time he is looking at me with his head cocked smiling and tongue hanging out, as if he were thinking "oh she is going to wrestle with me! this will be fun!!". I got the collar and leash back on him and he got up and walked less jovial and he is now pouting in his kennel. I'm tired.



In my experience with dog training I never, ever, chase them. They think it's a game. If my puppy ever gets loose, I turn around and walk away in a safe direction while calling. They don't want to be left out. In fact with my beagles part of their puppy training is I take them out to a forested area and let them off leash. As long as they stay with me I don't do anything, but the minute they wander too far away, I will actually stop and find a place to hide. Generally, within about 5 to 10 minutes you will find a very determined and upset puppy looking for you frantically usually by scent. You do that enough times and your dog will learn to keep their eye on you. My last beagle would actually grab me by my pant leg if she was off leash and she was worried I was going to run off. 

As for the wrestling thing, next time you get him down, don't just yell and snarl, but actually bite him. And make it hard enough that he yelps. Yes, you will be picking dog hair out of your mouth, but the message will be one hundred percent clear to the puppy that you are not playing and you are in charge.


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## breezy2u (Aug 26, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> *Never stop asking questions!*
> 
> 
> I have often felt like this about my children when they were young.  Oh wait, it still happens occasionally!  LOL
> ...



I agree about the shock collars where you administer the shock but one thing I will suggest is a proximity shock collar. They come with a little fake rock and you can get as many of them as you need. the dog wears the collar all the time and gets a warning noise when he gets close and a shock if he doesn't leave. It happens if I am there or not so he doesn't associate it with me. He just knows when he hears that sound he isn't supposed to be there. I use them to make a safe area for my chickens since my current dog will chase and kill them. But he stays far away from their yard now.


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## B&B Happy goats (Aug 26, 2020)

I am not trying to be rude here, but this person has a LGD....NOT a dog,  they are looking for advice from LGD OWNERS...experienced  LGD owners.....
It's  a world of diffrence training a LGD vs a dog..., soooo, telling them to get rid of him is not helping their situation at all and is extremely discouraging  for anybody doing this without prior experience , ...let's  be  supportive of this endeavor  and hold back advice unless you've "walked in those shoes"


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 26, 2020)

Amen, Sistah!!   😍


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## microchick (Aug 26, 2020)

Off and on today I've been 'scanning' over this thread with the plan to sit down and read it in earnest later.

Amazing is all I can say and I'm hoping that I can glean out some tips for personal use. 

A year ago this past April my husband and I rescued 5-3 month old Australian Cattle Dogs/Red Heelers from a local Amish puppy mill. They were being fed a dead goat kid and dead rabbit and had no socialization at all. They were little heathens but darling and after some dealing with the owner, we loaded them all in our van and brought them home for the grand sum of 25$. We had wanted one or two pups as we had lost our much loved Blue Heeler 4 months earlier to Degenerative Myelopathy. 5 weren't in the plan but we suspected the next stop for these darling pups was a visit to the nearest ravine and a date with Mr. .22.

It has been a difficult yet rewarding journey with these 5 young dogs. We have cats. They hate cats. Well not so much hate as look at them as food and or play toys probably because of their contact with the rabbit which may or may not have been alive when it was tossed to them. 

We finally conceded that for the cats and our sake (we usually wound up wounded with ever close encounter of the cat kind along with the cats) One of them in the house with a leash and collar and they weren't too bad but 5 of them and it was 'GAME ON!'

Things are better since they have their part of the house (utility room and family/hobby room) and the cats have their section but the training goes on. They have a large fenced in back yard to run and play in along with their own mini pond to swim in. They are intelligent, eager to pleas and loving dogs but some day we would like to be able to have them in the main house without them going after the cats and the two house dogs joining the fray. 

Realistically we know that what it will take is less than 5 cats and 7 dogs to manage in order to make any progress. Two of our cats are old and our house dogs will be 8 next year.

I'm hoping to be able to take the ACDs out of the yard and on walks shortly to resume their training. I have been using a martingale collar on them for indoor lessons but these are tough dogs even though the heavies is probably close to 40 pounds and the smallest 30-35 pounds. They laugh at training collars. I have a pronged collar coming from Amazon. I've used them before in training a BIG GSD and am hoping that after a few training sessions with it I will be able to go back to using a slip collar for walks.

I can really relate to OPs situation and to how she feels when she says 'I'm tired'.  I have unleashed my red headed genes on these 5 on occasion and can safely say that 'I can relate'.

We made the mistake of expecting them to be like our first Blue Heeler. Dingo was sweet, funny, loved cats and although he had a mind of his own he was a joy to have around. These 3 boys and 2 girls are one big challenge and probably more like the typical ACD.

Thanks again for the excellent thread.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 26, 2020)

Back again.   Sorry for my abrupt departure.



breezy2u said:


> In my experience with dog training I never, ever, chase them. They think it's a game. If my puppy ever gets loose, I turn around and walk away in a safe direction while calling.



That was going to be the next thing I wrote.  Never chase a puppy when it won't come - it become s a game.  Also never call your puppy to you and then punish him.  That teaches him that coming when called will be unpleasant.  When magnum slipped the leash, turn the other way and run away calling his  name excitedly.  He will start chasing you since that is where the fun seems to be.  Then he will come up and you can step on the leash or catch him.



frustratedearthmother said:


> Maybe I shouldn't call it obedience - I train for respect. Comes with being the Alpha. My dogs all walk quietly on a leash.



Absolutely.  I say you can't obedience train an LGD because the type of obedience training we all know is the dog heeling nicely and doing an auto sit when you stop.  This isn't going t happen with an LGD.  (Although I know one Anatolian who is a pet and his owner has been working on obedience for 18 months and seems to have a trained dog.  I wouldn't take him off leash and expect that kind of obedience but for an Anatolian he does well.)  Unless as you said further on when they are protecting you from suspected danger.  My big male will walk carefully and slowly by my side as I come up from the barn particularly if I am a trifle unsteady on my knees.  Maybe because I tend to lean in him for balance then.  LOL

They can certainly be taught respect and manners.  My friend Erick refers to the dogs as being polite in their behavior.  This is basic training for any dog and particularly giant dogs. 

frustratedearthmother's experience with her dogs backing her up is definitely something that occurs.  But she did not train them to do this,  It is part if their LGD instincts.

Just because you have been doing what you term the "wrong things" doesn't mean that you can't correct them.  It sounds like you are beating yourself up too much over the training thing.  Magnum is still a baby.  He will adjust his behavior many times as he learns to be a good LGD.

I need to ask, when you talk about the goat pasture  it sounds like it is far from your house.  Is it actually that far away?  Or does the gate open out of your fenced yard?  Do you have a fenced yard around your house?  Does he escape from the pasture to come up to the house?  If you do, you can allow Magnum to have the run of the house yard.  If you keep him in the house yard, does he escape from the house yard as well? 

Magnum is a Pyrenees/Maremma cross.  The Pyrenees part may be to blame for his escapes and wandering.  If he is the type of Pyr that wanders there is little to be done.  There can be several causes of wandering on the part of Pyrs.  Some Pyrenees bloodlines are far ranging.  This type of Pyr was bred for centuries to accompany shepherds as they wandered with their flocks in the mountains  These Pyrenees had to stay out ahead of and around the flock at a distance to drive predators off before the sheep arrived.  We had several of these type over the years.  Keeping this type of Pyr inside fencing can be almost impossible.  Other Pyrenees bloodlines may not be as far ranging and will stay closer to the flock.  None of ours ever stayed with the flock constantly.  Instead they set a perimeter at what they considered a safe distance from the sheep. This was *not *our property line.  Instead they wanted more open protected space between the sheep and any possible predators.  Having the sheep pen inside the fenced property line seemed to make it better, but even that did not keep our Pyrs from leaving our property.  The type of fencing that you have may need work to keep him in. 

He may be bored.  Magnum is a puppy and a high energy dog.  8 weeks was too early for the breeder to sell him. Since he and his littermates were in a separate pen in the goat pasture he had no chance to interact with them under his mother's guidance.  He has no playmates or older dogs to interact with.  *Do not *think that adding a puppy buddy will help.  It will just double your problems.  Since  the goats do not like him, can you find someone with a couple wethers that are used to LGDs?  If you can borrow or buy a couple of these, that might help.  It will also let him know that not all goats are mean.  And the goats that are afraid of him will be calmed when they see these others interacting with him in a loving manner.  *Do Not *buy something from the livestock auction if you have a good healthy herd.  Livestock auctions are where people often unload sick or diseased animals. You have enough problems.

Definitely continue training with the knee in the sternum anti jumping training.  Continue with the sit for dinner training.  Work on the "wait"  or "back off" commands.  "Back off" is taught by walking into him and blocking his every move to get around you.  Just keep doing this and he will learn to give ground and back up.  This is a good command that can be used if he is going after another dog or infringing on a mama's comfort zone with her kid.  You only need to do this training when you are out with him for a few minutes each time.  Extended training is not really necessary for these things since he will learn these things fast.  Walking on the leash.  As long as he is willing to walk on the leash without hanging back, or lunging forward, that is all I worry about.  My LGDs stay at home with the livestock, they din;t go for walks around the neighborhood.  I teach them not to exit the driveway gate when it is open too.  It is usually closed but when we drive in or out they are taught not to go past it.  My Anatolians learned this, my Pyrs never did unless I stood there in the gateway driving them back.

Let's talk about fencing for him.  You need a high fence because Pyrs can scale 6' fences even though they may not jump them.  Pyrs are determined diggers if they want out.  You will have to address the fence bottom to avoid that. Where he digs out, coyotes can come in.  Pyrs can actually compress their bodies like cats and slide through minuscule openings.  I don;t know how they do it, but I have seen them do it.

If you have a woven wire 5' fence, he will be able to jump it.  Try using a hot wire above the fence top.  You will have to train him to a hot wire so he knows that it will burn or zap him when he touches it.  Digging can be addressed in the same way.  Use standoffs on the fence and run the hot wire along the bottom of the woven wire about 8" abot the ground.  Baymule used this effectively on Trip when he was learning to stay on property.  She can tell you how to do it. 

We took lengths of chain link and attached them to the bottom of our fences where we had problems with diggers.  We draped the chain links onto the ground and when the brush grew up through the wire it it was impenetrable.  Our fences were 5' high and we did not have any trouble with our Anatolians at first.  When we bought another puppy and were walking the fence line with her to teach her the territory, we noticed on the steep downhill slope in the front pasture that the ground had sloughed off into the fence effectively lowering the height to 3'.  Oops.  Our large Anatolians could almost step over it  We bought heavy T type posts and used hose clams to attach them to our oil pipe vertical posts.  Then we put another 4' of wire on top of our fences.  The lower wire is woven wire, we saved money on the top by using welded wire since there would be no pressure on that portion to pop the welds.  Our perimeter fencing is now 7'-8' tall.  

I am a Nervous Nelly and hate to have my dogs roam.  It drove me crazy (and gave me ulcers) the whole time we had Pyrs.  After vour last Pyr died of cancer we tried to keep the sheep safe by locking them up at dusk, but after a year we started losing ewes during the day.  We switched to Anatolians since they tend to remain with the flock rather than guard a perimeter.   We have one 6' section of fence that I am worried about that still has to be fortified and when this heat breaks we will take care of it.  It is in the baby pen and the ewes and lambs are out on the big field now.  It was overlooked somehow, but DS1 and I will take care of it.  The dogs can access that pen so predators are not my worry.  I just like heavy fortifications for our Anatolians since we live in litigious southern California where criminals sue householders if they are injured during a break in!  Of course, if someone came over the fence and the dogs got him it would be a case of SSS!  LOL  Or a case of BSS.    That means Bite, Shovel, Shut Up of course.

Anyway, calm down and do some reading about LGDs and their instinctual methods.  Remember that just like a child, magnum has to be taught his job.  An older GLD would have taught him but since you don't have one he will have to learn little by little.

By the way, did you call the breeder about your problems?  Good breeders should give you training back up.  Either way, don't get discouraged.  Keep asking questions.  We are here.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 26, 2020)

microchick said:


> We made the mistake of expecting them to be like our first Blue Heeler. Dingo was sweet, funny, loved cats and although he had a mind of his own he was a joy to have around. These 3 boys and 2 girls are one big challenge and probably more like the typical ACD.



Actually sounds like your problem is not the individual dogs, but you got too many pups at one time.  Can you put up a kennel run in the back yard where you can keep 4 at a time while the  one learns manners and house breaking individually?  By rotating them one after the other into the house and working with each one separately you will have more success.  Trying to train all 5 at once is a recipe for failure.  They need to be trained one on one.  Once they have some basic obedience training you will have control and then they can all be in the house at once.  That breed cross should be very smart, but can be hard headed and dominant to train.  Both those breeds are working breeds that need a lot of work to do to be happy.  Good luck.


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## Baymule (Aug 26, 2020)

Trip is half Pyrenees and half Maremma. The Pyrenees is dominant in him. He can leap a 4’ fence, flat footed.  We ran a hot wire around the top, that’s the only way we can keep him in. He jumps internal fences, that’s ok. He will watch Sheep for awhile, get hot, get bored, it thunders, just because, he jumps out and comes to the house, under the porch. LOL 

As @Ridgetop has said, LGDs are a whole ‘nother kind of dog. They don’t do tricks. What motivates a dog that lives to please you, won’t motivate a LGD. They are wired different. 

As far as asking for help and getting answers all across the board, you are in control, you pick and choose what applies to your dog. Never be afraid to ask for help. Just know and understand that you will get lots of feedback. It doesn’t mean that you MUST use it all. People will share what worked for them. Glean what you want. It will all be ok.


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## bethh (Aug 26, 2020)

This is the place and these amazing people will lead you in the right direction.   I had my battles with Gracie, our Anatolian/GP/Kangal, when she was getting out.   I’m sure if there is a page showing all the things not to do, you’ll see my picture.   Now, I count on Gracie to do the training of new pups.


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## microchick (Aug 26, 2020)

We were very lucky in that the pups house trained themselves with the aid of a doggie door. We had about a month of OMG! That is just too much poop and pee for 5 puppies to make before they realized that they could let themselves out via the doggie door we put in for them.  No in the house accidents for almost a year now.

I have been working with them one on one but need to start working with them again as soon as the prong collar arrives. I have a form of RA along with moderate to severe osteoarthritis/porosis and take treatments every 6 months that knock me for a loop for about 6 weeks and then intermittently for another two months after that so things have to happen in my 'window of opportunity'.

Hardheaded? Look the word up in the dictionary and you will see my avatar. That is Varn when he was about 8 months old. Definition of hard headed. If he gets in a disagreement with his brother (his brother generally starts it) and correct his brother, he will get mad at us. Hardheaded. Yep.

We would love to have at least one or two of them to eventually be able to run loose on our property to keep varmints away from our chickens. No chance of the chickens being loose but we have a large fox and other predator problem on our property. Our first cattle dog would run all over our 29 acres at night keeping the varmints away.

The challenge will be to train them to stay inside our fence line.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 26, 2020)

I'm going to relay a story about my six month old Anatolian LGD that happened yesterday.  She is a very timid dog and her breeder originally thought she might not be LGD material.  I've been working with her for quite some time and she's not exactly 'timid' but she's very submissive.  She goes out during the day with the big dogs quite often and is doing great with their guidance.

Yesterday we had a change of pace.  She stayed all day in a smaller area with chickens,  two does and a buckling.  There are no other goat kids in this area and the buckling is bored.  After a while, I noticed him trying to play with the dog.

Generally, people complain about their dogs playing with the goats - but this was just as I explained it.  The goat initiated it and every time he reared up to play with the dog she would roll over in a totally submissive posture.  Good dog.  I want her to be submissive - but I don't want her to be bullied, lol.  At that point - even though she hadn't done anything wrong I removed her from the pen.  In my opinion, to leave her there might have been setting her up for a failure.  She might have decided to 'play' back.  She might have been hurt and decided to defend herself.  I wasn't willing to take that chance so out she came.  She's good, the buckling is good and she didn't have the opportunity to learn a bad habit.

Just one of those times that it pays to stand back and watch for a minute.  Had I not noticed that the goat was initiating the game I might have tried to correct the dog.  That wouldn't have been the appropriate action under this circumstance.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 26, 2020)

@Ridgetop the yard around our home is not fenced in.  We can see both pastures from our back deck.  The smaller of the two is where the goat house is and where Magnum's kennel is, and I have to walk through the yard 20 yards to get to that gate.  Walking through that pasture, there is a gate to a much larger pasture.  The goats spend most of their day in the larger pasture and I close the gate so that Magnum can have the smaller one to himself to run around and I dont have to worry with him getting out or the goat confrontations. 

I read an article shortly after we got him, that said most GP do not make it to adulthood because of their wandering traits and that made me fearful to let him roam loose in our yard.  That is when we got the 12x12 kennel for him,  so that I could sleep at night knowing he was safe and the goats were safe. We often let him out of the pasture WITH US and roam the yard and accompany us during feed time for the chickens and goats, and in the garden, etc.   He roams around marking his territory but never ventures far from our sight. He has never just flat out ran away from us when we are out working.  The times that he runs away is when he is on the leash in training or when I am trying to put him back in the pasture and he doesnt want to go.


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## Baymule (Aug 26, 2020)

It might help to fence your back yard. Our place is totally fenced in, as our house sits 100 yards off the road. If you fence your back yard to the goat fence, it would give him the option of "visiting" his family. You could leave the gate open when the goats are in the barn and he would be able to come in at night for awhile.

Right now, we have 4 big dogs sprawled out in the floor. Hurricane Laura is sending us some rain, Trip is deathly afraid of thunder. Paris, our female GP is terrified of thunder also, but won't come in the house. She has a dog house she goes in. The other dogs come and go in the house, at their pleasure. LOL When it is so hot in the late afternoons, we usually have 1, 2 or all 4 soaking up the AC. For the most part, they would rather be outside, and they usually are. 

Don't get discouraged, you will get this and so will Magnum. There is a lot of information in the LGD forum. Read the posts there, you will be surprised how much it will help. Sift through it, pick what works for you. LGD posts used to be all over the place. I asked Nifty to please make a section for our dogs and he did.


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## Beekissed (Aug 26, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> I say you can't obedience train an LGD because the type of obedience training we all know is the dog heeling nicely and doing an auto sit when you stop. This isn't going t happen with an LGD.



ALL my LGDs have been trained to walk obediently and calmly on a leash and also heel when not on a leash, sitting automatically when I stop.   Even the most hard headed pup, a female Anatolian that I recently sold would do this.   Leash training is one of the easiest things to teach a LGD.   I've had Akbash, Anatolian, GP/Maremma/Anatolian and GP dogs and all could walk well on a leash with minimal training...and I'm no dog trainer, by any means.   

I've also taught them good recall, which  most say they can't be taught.   If they are out ahead of me in a walk, even if they spot something they want to chase, I can call them back immediately.   If they notice I've stopped, they will come back to me and sit at my feet without my even having to call them back.   None of that took months of training but just a few weeks or so for each of them....with months I could probably teach them to do  my taxes...these dogs are smart. 

Leash training isn't about walking a dog on a leash, it's about establishing a pack leader and leash walking is the easiest way to do that.   You may never have to take your dog anywhere that you need it to walk calmly on a leash, but eventually you likely will~to the vet, to another field or area, while company is in the field, etc.   When my dogs get that leash on, it's like someone flipped a switch and they are ready to go where I take them....that's pretty important when the dog is the size and wt these dogs get.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 26, 2020)

Baymule said:


> It might help to fence your back yard. Our place is totally fenced in, as our house sits 100 yards off the road. If you fence your back yard to the goat fence, it would give him the option of "visiting" his family. You could leave the gate open when the goats are in the barn and he would be able to come in at night for awhile.



*Absolutely true.*  Your puppy wants to be with animals or people that love him.  If the goats don't like him he will want to be with you.  If you fence your yard to include the gates to the pastures, he will be able to come and go between the goats and your house,  By adding a hot wire around the top of the _perimeter_ fencing - the outside fence of all the pens and yard, hopefully he will not jump or climb out and will stay inside that area but will be able to visit the goats and other pasture.  This would help keep him within your designated fenced areas.   When he is full grown he will be able to keep watch over the livestock in both pastures from the back deck.  Try to fence your yard so he can have access to the pastures and the house or at least the back deck.  

He is a baby, he gets lonesome for friendly company.  Putting an 8 week old puppy into a pasture alone with thegoats without making sure the goats acceoted him was risky.  Magnum escaped.  But a predator could have eaten him, the goats could have injured him.  Instead of coming to the porch he could have wandered off.  Has he been microchipped? Be sure to do so if he isn't already.  That way if he does wander off you can get him back.

At night after the sheep are put up, our 3 Anatolians are fed and invited into the house for some family time.  If there is something they are not comfortable with outside they will not come in.  Otherwise, they sprawl out on the floor and enjoy a couple hours with the family before asking to return outside to their duties.  It is important to remember that traditional livestock guardian dogs and their masters lived together 24/7.  Either they stayed with the flock and their masters or were with them when they returned to the village with the sheep.  At any rate the dog and humans were together more than they were apart.  Since we pen our flocks up, we are not with them 24/7 anymore.  Expecting our LGDs to stay with the flock with no human interaction is not a normal thing for either us or the dogs.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 27, 2020)

The fencing would take a lot of time and money and something we would have to think about.  Our yard isn't flat so there are hills and banks to scale and the layout wouldn't mean just a simple square fence, so it is something we will have to plan.  It is my hope that when he is older he would roam our land and stay in the perimeters without fencing but still have his own area to bed down and eat. 

If I don't start focusing on some positives and things that are going right with him I am going to deflate, so I have good news. Yesterday I started having "goat time" with him in his kennel.  I got the two girl goats who are the most easy going and we had behavior training in his kennel with him.  I got him to lay down and watch them for a bit. They came nose to nose a couple of times and he didn't snap at them!  Every time he made an advance toward them I corrected him. But after about 10 minutes, he was losing his cool, so I ended it.  I will keep repeating this every day, a couple of times a day. 

I also did the sit and wait with his food this morning.  Happy to report that he has no food aggression whatsoever! I even put a treat he likes on top of the food, took it back off, put one back in, interrupted him several times and he would stop and look at me until I said go ahead.   It was like he already knew what to do.

Leash time to me is a time where I can control him and be the alpha.  We also did that yesterday and I feel like he has a good understanding of "stop".  The only command, but probably the one I repeat the most to him lol. 

Baby steps.......


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 27, 2020)

Woo Hoo!  Baby steps are still steps in the right direction and probably the best idea for him right now.  Maybe try giving him a treat when he's relaxed around the goats.  You want him to get the idea that interaction with goats is a positive experience.  Not that you should have to do that forever - but for now it may help with the association.  I'm rooting for you both!


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 27, 2020)

I put this on Dooley's thread, but also wanted to put it here, the herding behavior you described is exactly what Magnum does with our goats.  He runs up beside them with an open mouth once they move to where he wants them, he stops.  So is he trying to herd them?  Does this change anything about how I should train?


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## Beekissed (Aug 27, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> I put this on Dooley's thread, but also wanted to put it here, the herding behavior you described is exactly what Magnum does with our goats.  He runs up beside them with an open mouth once they move to where he wants them, he stops.  So is he trying to herd them?  Does this change anything about how I should train?



My current dog, Blue, started doing that with the sheep the first time he was with them.  Not quite as aggressively, mind you, just a slow walk to get them moving and he would bring them back up from the woods, towards the buildings and such.   It was as if he was moving them from an area of what he thought was dangerous, back up to the safety of the homestead.  

I corrected his behavior, so now he moves where they move to guard them, instead of moving them to where he wanted to station himself.   

Your dog,herding aggressively, is NOT a good behavior and it needs nipped in the bud real quick.   There is a FB page from Farei Kennels that deals with training LGDs....most of their methods are those I agree with, though those ladies have some rough language I do NOT condone.   Your dog really NEEDS a lot of their methods!   https://www.facebook.com/FareiKennels/

They advise tethering a dog in the goat/sheep area on a soft tether(can't emphasize that enough...I used a regular cable tie out and one of my sheep got entangled and it permanently crippled her) so they can't chase the goats/sheep, but still have proximity to and can guard~after a fashion~for up to a month.   I used that one on a recent pup I had that was stubborn about training...tethering her helped, as I couldn't watch her 24/7, but after her month was up and more training applied, she would still do a casual lope at the sheep now and again, having to be corrected...again.   Nothing aggressive, not biting them or anything, but just a little lope to get them moving, like she was having fun.   

She no longer lives here.   Don't be afraid to call it quits if the dog never conforms to your needs after all your best training.   She now lives with a family in NY who loves her dearly and she's clearly where she was supposed to be.   These dogs are not your pets nor your family members first...first, they are your employees that you invested a good bit of money in to do a job for you.   If they don't do the job correctly, you can move them along to a new place of employment.   Don't let people guilt you into not giving up on a dog....sometimes you and the dog are not a good match and they can find a better match elsewhere and so can you.   Life is much too short to be miserable all the time, worrying about what the dog will do when you can't be watching it.  

Also, I don't hold with the waiting until they are 2 yrs old to make that judgement....I know within a couple of months if a dog is going to be trainable for the job~why wait for 2 yrs, when the bad habits are firmly set in and I've lost chickens or larger stock, had to retrieve the dog from the neighbors over and over or other undesirable behavior when I can get a dog that doesn't make me wait that long for it to get with the program?   Better dogs/breeds of dogs are out there, why wait for that long to get one started on the job?  Get rid of the problem early on before you get too attached to a dog that will give you grief all its born days, is my best advice.


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## Baymule (Aug 27, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> The fencing would take a lot of time and money and something we would have to think about.  Our yard isn't flat so there are hills and banks to scale and the layout wouldn't mean just a simple square fence, so it is something we will have to plan. * It is my hope that when he is older he would roam our land and stay in the perimeters without fencing but still have his own area to bed down and eat.*



I well understand the cost of fencing. We fenced our entire place in non climb horse wire, cross fences too. $$$$$ LOL It took us 2 years to get it all done and we only have 8 acres. 

The ONLY Great Pyrenees I know of that STAYS HOME with no fence is Fluffy, a spayed female GP that lives a couple of miles from us. She was a stray that wandered up and George fed and cared for her. She has never left. When George is home and outside, Fluffy chases cars to show him that she is protecting him from car monsters. If George is inside or not home, she barely gives cars a passing glance. For Fluffy to be lost, it means she wandered away from someone else that never found her, or they dumped her. She must be so glad to have a home, food and care, that she never wants to leave. Fluffy is the exception to the rule. 

My point is that Magnum will not stay in the borders of your farm without a firm barrier, a fence, and even that may not deter him. I don't want to sound mean here, but stop thinking in Walt Disney La-La Land of happy little animals with human characteristics that do not eat each other, and start thinking like a strong, independent dog that is claiming his territory. You may hope that he is going to stay within the borders of your land, but without a fence, that is not going to happen. Please don't think that I am beating up on you and don't get your feelings hurt.

 I further would advise to stop walking him outside the fenced area, except for your back yard area. Basically you are showing him where he can go when he gets out-and he may not come back. Someone might pick up the "lost" puppy. He might chase cars like Fluffy and get run over. ALL of my dogs race to the front fence to chase away truck monsters. They especially hate garbage trucks. Were it not for the fence, they would be dog pancakes. Why do dogs chase cars/trucks? Because it works. The monster is gone down the road, they have done their job, their livestock and people are safe-and it is just plain ol' fun. 



ChickenMomma said:


> If I don't start focusing on some positives and things that are going right with him I am going to deflate, so I have good news. Yesterday I started having "goat time" with him in his kennel.  I got the two girl goats who are the most easy going and we had behavior training in his kennel with him.  I got him to lay down and watch them for a bit. They came nose to nose a couple of times and he didn't snap at them!  Every time he made an advance toward them I corrected him. But after about 10 minutes, he was losing his cool, so I ended it.  I will keep repeating this every day, a couple of times a day.
> 
> I also did the sit and wait with his food this morning.  Happy to report that he has no food aggression whatsoever! I even put a treat he likes on top of the food, took it back off, put one back in, interrupted him several times and he would stop and look at me until I said go ahead.   It was like he already knew what to do.
> 
> ...



Yes! Baby steps! You did great on this. You are going in the right direction, it takes time and doing the same thing over and over until it clicks in his mind and he gets it. Never end on a negative, always end on a positive. No matter what you did for the preceding minutes, the last few seconds is what will be strongest on his mind. This also works with horses. LOL 

Putting with goats for supervised time is great. Doing food training is also great. Keep up the good work. He, and you, can do this.


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## Beekissed (Aug 27, 2020)

Agree with everything Bay said 100%!   GPs are known for their wandering and guarding territories for up to 5 mi. square....and known for getting picked up and turned over to the shelter, killed for trespassing on other people's farms and getting killed on the road.   Actually, most of the breeds of LGD have this tendency, as they were more bred to be nomadic in their guarding, moving with the flocks either daily or for weeks on end.   

Fencing is a must and even  then, applying an additional layer of fencing by using a Sport Dog or similar type in ground electric to your farm perimeter or offset electric at top and bottom of woven wire fencing to contain your investment.  

Fluffy is the exception and even he wandered from home at some point or he wouldn't have been out there on his own. 

If you have a very small area to guard and your goats are confined to it, you may not need a LGD unless you have cougar or bear that prey on livestock in your area.   A simple farm mutt on the premises all the time can do the trick, as long as it's the right sort.   I've used Labs and Lab mixes for guarding 1 acre plots with small livestock and they've done well, even in places with coyotes, black bear and bobcat.   They are also easier to contain, train and deal with altogether.  This can save expenses on the type of fencing it takes to contain LGDs.


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## Stephine (Aug 27, 2020)

Congrats on your training progress! Just want to add that it is important to end before he loses his patience or gets bored with anything you train. The thing is that everyone, people, too, learns their experience; so you want to avoid him failing if you possibly can. Much better to end the training session early, when you think he’s doing great, and before you see him beginning to struggle. Then you can do another tiny session later in the day. 
Also, dogs that are bred to think for themselves get bored with training repetitions. 2 successful repetitions (if you are training a command) are good enough to stop a session on, 3 is plenty. Then come back to it again in the next session. Short and sweet is the key! I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. And, like others said, it is not a terrible thing to give up on a dog that is just not the right fit, after you have put in some good work. Many, many people have dogs they adopted from shelters and rescues, or friends and neighbors and those dogs are living perfectly happy lives. It is much better for the dog, too, to live in a situation where he doesn’t fail all the time!


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## Ridgetop (Aug 27, 2020)

No one realized that you don't have perimeter fencing around your house and the goat pasture gates.  Our suggestions have all been for property with fencing.  If you can't or won't fence your property around the house, please rehome the puppy.  He will never stay on the premises without proper fencing and since he is a Pyr even with fencing that may be too much to expect. 



Baymule said:


> *My point is that Magnum will not stay in the borders of your farm without a firm barrier, a fence, and even that may not deter him.* I don't want to sound mean here, but stop thinking in Walt Disney La-La Land of happy little animals with human characteristics that do not eat each other, and start thinking like a strong, independent dog that is claiming his territory. You may hope that he is going to stay within the borders of your land, but without a fence, that is not going to happen. Please don't think that I am beating up on you and don't get your feelings hurt.





Beekissed said:


> *Agree with everything Bay said 100%! GPs are known for their wandering and guarding territories for up to 5 mi. square....and known for getting picked up and turned over to the shelter, killed for trespassing on other people's farms and getting killed on the road. . . . Fencing is a must and even then, applying an additional layer of fencing by using a Sport Dog or similar type in ground electric to your farm perimeter or offset electric at top and bottom of woven wire fencing to contain your investment.*



*Both Baymule and Beekissed are 10,000% right on this!  *NEVER try to keep a guardian dog on open land without fences unless you have thousands of empty acres, no road access, and are living with the dog and sheep in the middle of this wasteland.  Good LGD breeders will insist that you have a fenced property and refuse to sell a puppy or adult LGD to anyone that doesn't.  

*Please don't get defensive over this.  You didn't know anything about LGDs when you bought him except that you were told LGDs "stay with their animals and protect them".  *You expected him to do that, but did not understand that as a small 8 week old puppy he would not know what to do.  LGD pups require a lot more training,  The dangers to any dog are too great on an unfenced property.  Cars, predators, getting lost, and humans that pick up the cute "stray" dog (even if he is wearing ownership tags )are just some of the dangers.

*If you don't have a fenced yard, and can't put up a fence. you should rehome Magnum while he is still a  puppy and can be retrained by someone with the appropriate fencing.  You already have several strikes against you. First and most important, he is a Pyrenees.  Second, lack of fencing.  Third, he is a Pyrenees.  *

I have owned many Pyrenees LGDs over the past 30 years.  We had appropriate fencing, but they still insisted in leaving the property and protecting the 100 acres behind us as well as the surrounding neighborhood up to 3 miles away.  Bravo was killed by a car several miles away.  The police called me when they found him.  The officers said that they had often seen him trotting down the side of the road around 2:00 am while on night patrol.  He was always in the yard in the morning, never knew he was gone.  Alpha was rehomed to a large cattle ranch since she routinely left the yard, patrolled the neighboring hills and always turned up several miles away on someone's porch.  After 10 trips to retrieve her in one month, we had to keep her tied.  A guardian dog that is tied can't guard.  A guardian dog that is tied can't protect himself from predators.  A guardian dog that is tied will chew through the rope and must be chained!  Chains can wrap around legs and cause severe damage.  Any dog that is chained or tied, other than for a small period of time while a specific chore is performed, is in danger of injury. 



Beekissed said:


> *Don't be afraid to call it quits if the dog never conforms to your needs after all your best training. . . . Don't let people guilt you into not giving up on a dog....sometimes you and the dog are not a good match and they can find a better match elsewhere and so can you. *Life is much too short to be miserable all the time, worrying about what the dog will do when you can't be watching it.





Stephine said:


> And, like others said, *it is not a terrible thing to give up on a dog that is just not the right fit*, after you have put in some good work. . . It is much better for the dog, too, to live in a situation where he doesn’t fail all the time!



*Absolutely!*

You said that your property is very hilly.  Here is a picture of ours.  We have 6 acres.  We sit on a ridge top and the land slopes away steeply in front and into the ravine in back and up to the dirt road in back.

  
That ravine is 100' deep and has a 60 degree slope.   Steep slopes front and back, brush, dips, lots of predators. It is fenced with welded in place 5' oil pipe with woven livestock wire on the perimeter boundaries.  


  Front of property which is a 30 degree slope. We had to raise the fence since the ground sloughed off on the downhill areas making the fence only 3' high from the inside. Coyotes everywhere, cougar occasionally. We *NEED *our 3 guardians on our 6 acres.

We  switched to Anatolians 7 years ago, but without proper fencing you should not get a  livestock guardian dog of any breed.  Even though my Anatolians don't have the roaming gene of Pyrs, I make sure my fences are secure and my dogs contained. Any LGD without proper boundaries will patrol outside their property.  We had to teach them to remain inside the driveway when the gate was opened to bring vehicles in and out.  Our 3 Anatolians learned this, our Pyrs knew better but refused to obey.  We had to hold them inside when the gate was open. 

I think you should seriously consider rehoming your puppy now *since you don't have fencing*.  Save yourself a lot of heartache, since without fencing your LGD experience will not end well.  It would be better to rehome him while he is still young enough to learn instead of when he is older, has learned wrong behaviors and ends up in a shelter.  You say he cost a lot of money, but how much?  The amount you put into him will be more in another year if you have to rehome him, and he will have learned bad behaviors.  

Instead of an LGD, consider locking your goats up inside a shed at night for safety.  Put bells on their collars so you can hear if they are being chased.  Bells work.  Add hot wire around the top and bottom perimeter of the goat pasture.  There are other ways to deter predators.  Remember, if Magnum is not in the pasture or free to get to the goats, he can't guard them anyway.  Later,  when you have proper fencing, you can research breeds of LGDs and find one that will work for you.  Look for a trained adult LGD at that time.  The extra cost of a trained dog will be worth it.
*
Please don't take this as any criticism of you.  *You have worked hard with Magnum.  He is just not the right choice for you at this time..


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 27, 2020)

*If I understand correctly she states in her first post that she has a 1.5 acre fenced area for the goats.  Inside that area she has a 12 x 12 kennel that the dog can be put in when he needs a time-out. *

My suggestion would be to try and add electric fence to that 1.5 acre field to contain the dog.  It's not terribly expensive and pretty simple to install.

@ChickenMomma - this is totally your call!  If it were me - I wouldn't quit on him yet.  As long as you are willing to work with him a bit longer to at least get a real idea of if he can or can't improve.  He's a 6 month old puppy. This is only the beginning of his formal training.

I wouldn't give up on him after only 6 days of real work.


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 27, 2020)

I have a FENCED pasture for Magnum to be in, his kennel is also in this fence when he needs to be alone/time out.  I was only talking about the yard around our home that isn't fenced. The goats move from this pasture to a connecting bigger fenced pasture.  The bigger fenced pasture is where Magnum escapes if we let him in there.  He has never escaped the smaller fenced pasture.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 27, 2020)

It is *not* a matter of giving up on him after only 6 days, she has been trying for 4 months.  *THIS IS NOT A CRITICISM OF CHICKENMOMMA.  She has been trying her best.  It is not her fault.  

In my opinion the criticism should be of the breeder who sold a Pyrenees puppy to a family at 8 weeks old without a fenced yard.  The criticism should be of any breeder selling an 8 week old LGD puppy without proper training help.  And the final criticism should be for those who would make Chickenmomma feel guilty if she has to rehome him.  Magnum is wrong for her circumstances.  There is no guilt or shame in placing Magnum in a home that will suit him and allow him to be a successful LGD.  She has been trying to make it work.*

The goat pasture is fenced and there is a smaller attached area with a kennel in it for the dog  *BUT* those fenced areas are 600' away from the house with *no fences* connecting them to the house yard.  He wants to be with the family since he is a baby and the goats don't like him.  These goats have never had an LGD with them.  Livestock has to be trained to LGDs just like with herding dogs.  The goats run away from him and he has to chase them to be with them.  When he chases them he gets scolded.  This is learning bad behavior.  To try to provide exposure to the gots she kennels him in the goat pasture.

He is almost 6 months old.  She got him at *8 weeks*, and *immediately* put him in the goat pen alone with the goats and expected him to just stay there.  He immediately got out and no wonder, he was a baby and lonely.  She is lucky that the coyotes did not take him.  Without fences you should not have LGDs.  He is a Pyrenees x Maremma. Pyrenees are known for not remaining inside fences anyway.  He has been getting out ever since she got him.  4 months of going over, under and through any fence has taught him that he can do it without any problem.  He has also learned that as long as he avoids being caught he doesn't have to return to the kennel.  When walking him or trying to return him to the kennel he will slip his leash and be off.

She wants him to learn to stick around the house without a fence, and expects him to go into the goat pen to protect the goats with whom he can't bond because they dislike him.  *This is an unreasonable expectation for any puppy*, let alone a wandering breed like a Pyr.  It would be better to rehome him now, *and when she has more fencing*, get another LGD, possibly an older trained one. 

By keeping this 5-6 month old puppy and continuing in this way, by the time he either disappears for good or they make the decision to get rid of him in another year or so he will be ruined.  For the puppy's sake they should rehome him now.  This is not a good fit for either of them.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 27, 2020)

I've had LGD's for 30 years - and 25 of those years were with Pyr's.  Occasionally they would get out of the fence.  I didn't like it, didn't want it, didn't condone it and didn't tell them it was ok.  But, without fail after maybe an hour or so of nosing around the neighborhood they would come home and ask to go back with the stock.  Cowboy, the Anatolian, would do the same thing.  I spent months, before I got electric fencing, trying to figure out how to contain him.  But, again, without fail he would come back home on his own accord.   They never hit the road or found a new farm - they know where their bread is buttered, lol.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 27, 2020)

Then she has no worries.


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## Stephine (Aug 27, 2020)

Maybe slightly off topic but good information for anyone reading this to inform themselves on LDGs for their farm or homestead - there is the English Shepherd as a fantastic all around farm dog breed. They can work independently, are gentle with little ones, tough with predators, and generally want to please and do a good job for their human. It takes a different mindset to train one of these from training a regular pet dog, too, but I think they might be quite a bit easier. The trick to training there is to keep the dog with you for all your farm chores so they see what needs doing, what the rules are and they will start to offer their help. They can not be kept apart from their human though, to live with the livestock, but if they can move about freely, they will spend time with their humans and watch the farm. They don’t tend to roam - they are very attached to their “pack”. We have one and he was a *real* handful as a pup, then his hormones kicked in at 6 months and he became calm, caring and very serious. You will need several to protect against larger predators, but that might be a better farm dog solution for some people and set ups. Good breeding is of course key. Working dogs should come from proven working parents.


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## B&B Happy goats (Aug 27, 2020)

@Stephine, that was very helpful information  that you just shared...nice post


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 27, 2020)

@Stephine - I am also an English Shepherd lover!  I had one for 5 years (Gracie) and lost her a few months ago.   They are excellent farm dogs - not LGD's - but great all around dogs to have.  I can't live without them.  At this point I have three LGD's, one ES pup on site, another that I will pick up in a few weeks and one more that I'm on a waiting list for.   Gracie was chief exterminator, herder helper, and overall farm manager!


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## Baymule (Aug 27, 2020)

We got Trip 3 weeks before we moved. He had to stay in a chicken run in the back yard because Paris wanted to eat him. We moved. Paris had a fenced yard. Trip didn’t. We put him on a chain and brought him in at night, put him in a crate which he hated. We finally got a cow panel pen for him built. It was a pretty good while before we had an area fenced for him. Basically we did a whole lot wrong and backwards. He was a year old before we got Sheep. That was another disaster. We got through it. I never gave up. He finally made a very good dog, despite all my blunders. 

The OP has asked for help. She has made a lot of mistakes. She wants what is right for her, the goats, the dog and her family. Magnum has learned some bad habits. Now that @ChickenMomma has asked for help, she has begun to adapt to better training. She made some progress in the right direction. One thing about it @ChickenMomma, you have learned a lot in a very short time. If you want this to work, you go back to square one and start over. New you, the Alpha Bitch. New Magnum, the puppy that needs correction and training. Take a deep breath. 

Where do you go from here? It has been noted that you don’t have a fence from the goat yard to the house. I don’t know what type of fencing you have, I recommend Goat and Sheep fence with hot wire top and bottom. Yes, fence is expensive and a lot of work. You can buy a roll, put it up, save for another roll. 

In the meantime, spend good training time with Magnum. Clip a leash on him, walk him to the house for family time. Let him enjoy family time, take him back to his kennel. 

This will take time. Get ready to spend a good 2 years for him to grow up and become the dog you want him to be. 

You are at a crossroad. You can decide to rehome Magnum and put off getting another LGD until you have fencing up and have studied these dogs intensively. Or you can plunge into making him the best dog he can be. He will teach you way more than you teach him.


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## Stephine (Aug 27, 2020)

B&B Happy goats said:


> @Stephine, that was very helpful information  that you just shared...nice post


Aww, thanks!


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## MoreAU (Aug 28, 2020)

Baymule said:


> He will teach you way more than you teach him.


So very true!


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 29, 2020)

I just wanted to document that my sweet boy protected me yesterday...from a toad!! LOL He was on guard and stood in front of me barking and growling at it very ferociously!!   So if there are any toad packs that come our way, we are safe!


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 29, 2020)

That's awesome!  Go Magnum!   😍


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## Baymule (Aug 29, 2020)

I have faith in your abilities and in Magnum. Y’all can do this. We are behind you. 

Read the forums. There are lots of good posts, full of information. 

I bet you feel very safe from marauding frogs!


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## B&B Happy goats (Aug 29, 2020)

Way to go MAGNUM....you  are  learning   ...you got this chicken momma


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## ChickenMomma (Aug 30, 2020)

Magnum laid down and watched the goats eat this morning without ANY guidance from me and not on a leash!!!  I think it’s starting to click with him, I am so overjoyed!!  This gives me such confidence to know my work with him is paying off.


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## Beekissed (Aug 30, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> Magnum laid down and watched the goats eat this morning without ANY guidance from me and not on a leash!!!  I think it’s starting to click with him, I am so overjoyed!!  This gives me such confidence to know my work with him is paying off.



That's great news!   Doesn't your heart just smile when they get it?  Then you know you are finally entering into a partnership with this dog.  Please keep giving us feedback on how Magnum is progressing...I LOVE hearing about successful training!


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 30, 2020)

ChickenMomma said:


> This gives me such confidence to know my work with him is paying off.


I think Magnum is like a rebellious teenager - and as soon as Momma lowered the hammer and has higher expectations - he's responding!  Whoop!  You're doing great and so is Magnum!


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## Baymule (Aug 31, 2020)

Proud mom! It’s the little things that let you know that you are on the right track. Good job Magnum!


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