# Lets make a UC thread



## warthog (Oct 21, 2010)

I have given myself a day off today and have spent some time on researching UC, this has come from my earlier posting regarding the best age to castrate a young buckling.

From the research I have done so far, there are three causes of UC.

too much:

1.  Calcium
2.  Phosphorus
3.  Silica

Important:

Getting the balance of Ca in ration.  I have read 2:1, although I have also read 2.7:.3
Making sure they drink enough water.

I have read that castration at an early age is not the cause it can be genetic, that doesn't make sense to me.

I have also found that if you castrate at an early age the urether (sp) then stops developing (hormones are reduced) and thus more likely to blockage.

Some say castrate from 48 hours others after weaning and about 4 months being the best.

It is a minefield of information/misinformation out there.

I have even read that baking soda can contribute to UC, if this is so, how many of us keep baking soda free range, I used to.

Do young bucks, after weaning actually need grain?  they are still growing, is browse/hay enough,  who can, even if it's availalbe have their browse analyised, the nutrition will certainly change with the seasons/growth stage.

One of the things mentioned was that 'show goats' are more prone to UC because they are fed lots more grain, is that so??

I don't know, but I thought that maybe if you more experiend goat owners could chime in here and let's get something together on UC, it may well save some goaties down the line somwhere.  Only the other day, someone asked the question what is UC?

I am not asking for this for me, I have hopefully enough experience now to be able to make my own choice regarding what age to castrate.

This is really something I think we should do for the newcomer, and of course I am sure we all will learn from it.

I also think we should be emphasising on the prevention, not just focusing on the cure.

What do you all think?


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 21, 2010)

I think its a fabulous idea!!!  Being a goat owner who lost a boy to it would completely support it!!  Prevention is key and sooo many people are not aware of it until it happens.  Rough way of learning about it.   

I just read a person asking the other day "what is UC"  and I believe he owns goats.  Its an important discussion. 

If anyone ask my husband or I about purchasing goats...its one of the first things we inform them about with the bucks....

Great idea.  I will gather any info I can and hope it helps!!


----------



## cmjust0 (Oct 21, 2010)

Here's a link to some really good info on UC.

In the majority of cases of UC in goats, the stones themselve are Struvite.  Struvite precipitates as sandy, abrasive crystals when the urine is neutral to alkaline (not acidic) and supersaturated with ammonia, phosphorus, and magnesium.  

Lesser volumes of urine will obviously become supersaturated more quickly, which is why providing fresh water to bucks, 24/7, is very important.

The biggest culprit of the three components is phosphorus, and it's almost always related to improper feeding.  Grains are high in phosphorus and low in calcium -- 1:4 - 1:6.  Blood calcium and blood phosphates are normally inverse; high blood calcium means low blood phosphorus, and vice versa.  The way it works is that if blood calcium is low, the goats intestines will take a lot of phosphorus into the bloodstream and blood phosphates will rise, whereas if blood calcium is high, the intestines will block excess phosphorus and it will be passed harmlessly through feces.

Blood phosphates are excreted through saliva (which is negatively impacted by high-concentrate diets, since concentrate doesn't require as much saliva), but extra phosphorus in the blood is also cleared by the renal system and excreted through the urine.  Having high levels of phosphorus in the urine (hyperphosphaturia) is what sets the stage for urinary calculi.  All it takes beyond that point is a rise in urine pH, a mildly dehydrated goat, a smaller urethra as a result of having been castrated at too young an age, etc., and BAM -- urinary calculi.

Most on-label goat grain is mixed at 2:1, Ca -- twice as much calcium as phosphorus -- to keep blood calcium elevated and take advantage of the goat's natural ability to moderate blood phosphates.  

Other good sources of calcium are legumes...alfalfa, lespedeza, clover, etc.  Timothy also has a more favorable Ca ratio, which is why my favorite "grass hay" is a mix that's heavy on timothy and clover.  

That's also why I personally mix my bucks' ration about 50:50 with alfalfa pellets, just to provide some extra calcium.  Their normal feed is 2:1, and pellets should be about 6:1, so I figure the total ration is probably 4:1 or thereabout.  Alfalfa pellets are also usually in the 14-17% protein range, so you're not sacrificing protein to add calcium.

Ok, so that's my take...  Now I'll go point by point.  



> From the research I have done so far, there are three causes of UC.
> 
> too much:
> 
> ...


There are such things as calcium oxylate and silicate stones.  Silicate -- there's not much you can do about that except limit the animal's access to high-silica forage.  As for calcium oxylate stones, my personal opinion is that the risk of struvite stones due to a calcium deficient diet far outstrips the risk of forming calcium oxylate stones from a calcium rich diet.  Therefore, I feed plenty of calcium.

Some would disagree with that, of course, but I'd have to ask those folks a simple question:

If both a small urethral diameter and high intake of calcium contributed to urinary calculi, then wouldn't a very young buck drinking milk exclusively be at the highest risk of all?  Seems to me it would...yet I've never seen a baby buck with UC.

Have you?





> Important:
> 
> Getting the balance of Ca in ration.  I have read 2:1, although I have also read 2.7:.3


If feeding concentrates, I like 2:1 or 2.5:1 grain fed in conjunction with alfalfa hay or with added alfalfa pellets..  

But, again, that's just me.  



> Making sure they drink enough water.


Yes -- very important to maintain a clean source of water at all times.  Bucks will ration themselves on dirty water, so having lots of dirty water on hand is just as bad as having very little water at all.



> I have read that castration at an early age is not the cause it can be genetic, that doesn't make sense to me.


I do think there's a genetic predisposition to urinary calculi, simply because part of the cause can be metabolic differences, differences in urethral diameter, etc..  

That, however, does not mean it can't ALSO be related to castration at too young of an age.  Castration effectively stops the urethra from growing, and the smaller it is, the more risk they have of developing **a blockage** from UC.



> I have even read that baking soda can contribute to UC, if this is so, how many of us keep baking soda free range, I used to.


I've suspected that myself, but I've never looked into it very much..  My thinking is that it *could* lead to a more alkaline body chemistry, which may affect urine pH -- but that's purely speculation.



> Do young bucks, after weaning actually need grain?  they are still growing, is browse/hay enough,  who can, even if it's availalbe have their browse analyised, the nutrition will certainly change with the seasons/growth stage.


If you were to take the entire history of man's domestication of the goat and condense it into a 24 hour day, we've only been using bagged feed for about the last 15 minutes.

And, yes, I actually did the math on it.  

Which is to say, if they *needed* grain to survive, there wouldn't be such a thing as domesticated goats.



> One of the things mentioned was that 'show goats' are more prone to UC because they are fed lots more grain, is that so??


Yes, but "pet wethers" often suffer the same fate due to overfeeding of concentrated ration.  Folks get into the "feed = love" trap and wind up with fat, dead wethers.



> I also think we should be emphasising on the prevention, not just focusing on the cure.


I agree with that, but having dealt with a case of UC myself, I can tell you that finding article after article on prevention and how it's related to improper feeding and going "OK..I'M A DUMBASS, I GET IT.  NOW, HOW DO I FIX THIS?" is disheartening, at best.

Having said that, here's my advice on what to do if you find yourself with a case of UC.

First thing, drench with ammonium chloride at 3 grams per 22lbs of bodyweight.  A 50lb wether would needs about 6 grams.  Mix it in 20-30ml of water and make him drink it.  Keep doing this once a day for at least a week.

Second thing I'd do right away, if possible, would be to get some acepromazine in him.  Ace is a smooth muscle relaxer and part of his problem may be that his sigmoid flexure -- the part of the urethral anatomy that holds back pee -- may be spasming shut.  Ace may relax it.  My UC case was barely dribbling when he got to the vet, but after a shot of Ace, he pee'd like a Russian racehorse.  If you can get Ace, use it.

Next thing I'd do is remove the urethral process, aka the "pizzle."  It's the little curly-q flappy thing that hangs off the end of his penis.  Sit him on his rump, grab the penis ahead of his scrotum with one hand and push up while simultaneously pushing down on the sheath from the top with the other hand..  This should externalize the penis.  When the end comes out, find the little flappy thing on the end of it and cut it off flush with the tip of his weiner.  It's not a huge deal -- trust me.  Sounds a lot worse than it is.  It probably won't even bleed.

Next, give a shot of banamine -- 1ml/100lbs of bodyweight.  Banamine is a pain reliever, which he'll appreciate, but more importantly it's an anti-inflammatory.  Struvite crystals are sharp and jagged and they *will* cut the urethra on the way out.  Those abrasions lead to inflammation, and the inflammation CAN AND WILL get bad enough to swell his penis SHUT.  I've seen it happen.  Banamine will help bring down swelling.

Next, start him on a round of dexamethasone..  Dosage is about 1ml/20lbs IM.  Dex basically halts inflammatory processes, which will help prevent his damaged urethra from swelling shut.  I'd recommend about a week's worth of Dex at the above dosage, then taper him off over the course of another week.

Bear in mind that dex and banamine together like to eat holes in GI tracts, so go easy on the banamine while the dex is in use.  I can't recommend more than one shot of banamine, personally..  If he's in enough pain after day one that you feel really, really bad, ask your vet about giving a shot of ketofen..  Ketofen's like banamine, but not as hard on the GI.

Accompany the dex with a round of Penicillin @ 1ml/15lbs 2x/day for a week or long as the dex is used -- whichever is longer.  One thing that can actually kick off a case of urinary calculi is a bladder infection, because bladder infections tend to raise urine pH.  If that's what cause the UC, PenG will help.  If that's *not* what caused it, dex is an immune system killer and needs to be accompanied by a preventative antibiotic anyway.

So...at the immediate discovery of a case of UC, I would:

1) Drench with ammonium chloride, 3g/22lbs.
2) Give a shot of acepromazine, if at all possible.
3) Snip the pizzle.
4) Give a shot of banamine, 1ml/100lbs.
5) Give a shot of dexamethasone, 1ml/20lbs.
6) Give a shot of PenG, 1ml/15lbs.

Then, I'd:

1) Continue the ammonium chloride for a week.
2) Continue the dexamethasone for about a week, tapering after that.
3) Continue the PenG so long as the Dex is being used.
4) Cut back the grain and add calcium to the diet.

But that's me..


----------



## warthog (Oct 21, 2010)

> Here's a link to some really good info on UC.


Useful site, thank you.



> Most on-label goat grain is mixed at 2:1, Ca -- twice as much calcium as phosphorus -- to keep blood calcium elevated and take advantage of the goat's natural ability to moderate blood phosphates.
> 
> Other good sources of calcium are legumes...alfalfa, lespedeza, clover, etc.  Timothy also has a more favorable Ca ratio, which is why my favorite "grass hay" is a mix that's heavy on timothy and clover.


There are people posting on here that cannot get a goat feed, and use horse feed.  Is this Ok for them to use?



> That's also why I personally mix my bucks' ration about 50:50 with alfalfa pellets, just to provide some extra calcium.  Their normal feed is 2:1, and pellets should be about 6:1, so I figure the total ration is probably 4:1 or thereabout.  Alfalfa pellets are also usually in the 14-17% protein range, so you're not sacrificing protein to add calcium.


Not everyone has acces to alfalfa, what else can be used to up the calcium?




> If both a small urethral diameter and high intake of calcium contributed to urinary calculi, then wouldn't a very young buck drinking milk exclusively be at the highest risk of all?  Seems to me it would...yet I've never seen a baby buck with UC.


A very good observation, makes sense to me.




> very important to maintain a clean source of water at all times.  Bucks will ration themselves on dirty water, so having lots of dirty water on hand is just as bad as having very little water at all.


How do you monitor the water consumption of one or two bucks or wethers within the herd.  Especially if the bucks or wethers run with the does?



> Castration effectively stops the urethra from growing, and the smaller it is, the more risk they have of developing **a blockage** from UC.


How do we then decide what is the correct age for castration?
At what age does the urethra stop growing?



> If you were to take the entire history of man's domestication of the goat and condense it into a 24 hour day, we've only been using bagged feed for about the last 15 minutes.
> 
> And, yes, I actually did the math on it.
> 
> Which is to say, if they *needed* grain to survive, there wouldn't be such a thing as domesticated goats.


So is it fair to say that with adequate browse/pasture and hay a buck/wether does not need grain?



> Yes, but "pet wethers" often suffer the same fate due to overfeeding of concentrated ration.  Folks get into the "feed = love" trap and wind up with fat, dead wethers.


I can understand the feed=love trap a very easy one to fall into.

Sorry CM don't want to make this sound like twenty questions, just trying to get something going to cover all bases, and obviously this is for anyone to answer.


----------



## cmjust0 (Oct 22, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> Sorry CM don't want to make this sound like twenty questions, just trying to get something going to cover all bases, and obviously this is for anyone to answer.


I love 20 questions.  



> There are people posting on here that cannot get a goat feed, and use horse feed.  Is this Ok for them to use?


I'd say it's 2nd best to goat feed, IMHO.



> Not everyone has acces to alfalfa, what else can be used to up the calcium?


Umm...beet pulp shreds are high in calcium, but they're only like 10% protein, so mixing that in would lower the protein content.  :/  I don't recall running across much besides alfalfa/clover/lespedeza that's high in protein *and* calcium.

That's the problem with animal feed products and calcium..  Most stuff that's going to work well to put condition on an animal is going to be low in calcium and high in phosphorus -- except alfalfa.



I guess I really don't have a good answer for this one.



> A very good observation, makes sense to me.


It's speculative, of course, but it makes sense to me too.  



> How do you monitor the water consumption of one or two bucks or wethers within the herd.  Especially if the bucks or wethers run with the does?


You can't -- you can only maximize it by making sure the bucks and wethers have access to all the clean water they want.  



> How do we then decide what is the correct age for castration?


What I hear is that it's related to puberty, and goats reach puberty PRETTY DAMN QUICK.  Most folks know that the average buck is fertile by 2mos of age, which is when most people castrate.  Personally, I think *some* are fertile by 2mos when others aren't, which is why I think weight might be a better indicator.

Research needs to be done on that, of course...but I'd say that whenever you see a buckling acting bucky, he's hit/hitting puberty.



> At what age does the urethra stop growing?


My understanding is that it grows fast up to puberty, then slows from there...could be wrong, though.  In any case, the idea -- and this is supported by proven reduction in rates of UC by castrating later -- is that if you let them get all the early growth in before snipping, then they've done enough growing that the risk of *blockage* from UC is diminished.

See...the reality is that castrating early doesn't predispose an animal to urinary calculi, per se -- it predisposes to *blockage* by urinary calculi.  The obvious implication there is that many more young males develop UC stones than will actually develop *blockage* from UC, with the difference being that the animal which was castrated later in life has a better shot of passing UC stones without intervention.





> So is it fair to say that with adequate browse/pasture and hay a buck/wether does not need grain?


A ruminant animal that's growing appropriately and/or maintaining condition on browse, pasture, and hay doesn't need grain, be it a buckling, wether, yearling buck, doeling, yearling doe, dry adult doe, bred doe, etc..  

If it's OK on what nature's making available, it's OK.



> I can understand the feed=love trap a very easy one to fall into.


Indeed.


----------



## KermitWC (Aug 5, 2012)

I came up on this site while I was trying to find out what to feed my 6 month old wether who has UC. He bladder burst and he now has a stoma. He drinks 3, 20 ounce bottles of milk a day. Gets 10-20 ounces of water and also gets hay. Can I gave him beet pulp?


----------



## ksalvagno (Aug 5, 2012)

I would give him alfalfa.


----------



## meme (Aug 7, 2012)

I have been trying to figure out what to feed our 6 month old Nubian Whether, Shasta. He was sharing 2 leaves per day of alfalfa and a small leaf of grass hay with our two does. We have never fed grain.  We ran out of the grass hay mix, and the feedstore only had oat hay. It is terrible quality from what I can see, and looks just like straw aside from a few light green pieces. So now they are pretty much only getting alfalfa and all the oak leaves, acorns, and any weeds that manage to survive the heat (not many). They have free choice baking soda and goat minerals. I need to but AC, but I am not sure how I would feed it to him. Should I mix it with something? Also, what kind of hay should I feed to balance out the alfalfa? I am looking on CL for a "hay guy", but so far the hay in the pics look like they have been left in the sun. I would hate for him to develop UC, but everything I read seems to have diff. advice! BTW, he was surgically castrated at 3-4 months, however his urine is always pretty yellow and slow to come out. He has plenty of clean, cool water available, but it is really hot here. any advice?


----------



## meme (Aug 7, 2012)

Just found out the mixed grass hay is available through a family friend. We will pick some up Friday, I only wish I knew what exactly is in the mix. I am thinking I should start separating all 3 goats so they all get what they need, definitely more work though.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Aug 7, 2012)

I have heard that feeding Alfalfa to bucks and weathers may cause UC because the Calcium is so high in it. I personally don't think it would be an issue but I guess it could. Food for thought...


----------



## meme (Aug 8, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I have heard that feeding Alfalfa to bucks and weathers may cause UC because the Calcium is so high in it. I personally don't think it would be an issue but I guess it could. Food for thought...


I keep hearing that too, I think the calcium to phosphorus ratio is something like 8:1! Definitely doesn't sound good, but a lot of people have fed it to bucks and wethers for years with no issue. According to Storey's Guide, a mixed grass would have a near-perfect ratio. That doesn't really make sense though, how would you know what kind of grass is in the particular mix you are feeding? I am at a loss. The high blood calcium cm was talking about does make a lot of sense, I have never heard that theory before though.

When I was a lot younger, I had two pygmy wethers for 4-H. The leader never mentioned U.C, and she had a very large herd and is well-known in the goat world. We only had them for two years, but they only ever ate alfalfa and didn't have any issues.

ETA, a random thought, but is there some phosphorus supplement I could feed him so the ratio wouldn't be too off? That could either really help a lot or pretty much doom him.   Also, does the way they are castrated have any influence on their susceptibility?

Edit again, I found this old thread - http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=14840&p=1


----------

