# Spay/neuter



## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2016)

First tail docking needs to be done within days after birth. When done at this time it is no more of an issue than removing extra dewclaws. Although I am not a fan of banding tails. I prefer cut and suture or surgical glue. 

We had considered having our mutt Lucy's tail getting docked. She was older and it would require anesthesia and would have been far more of an issue so we didn't. I will say however this dog (Lucy's) has broken more blood vessels in people's legs than I can keep track of, as well as she has broken her tail 3 times. She has cut it and spat blood everywhere, she has smacked herself in her face so hard she has yelped and given herself welts. Her tail is truly a whip. 

I have seriously bad veins and when she hits mine the spot will blow up as big as a golfball and I am down for days. Obviously I am very careful around her tail. The list could go on but this dogs tail should have been done as a pup! She is half boxer and half lab. It boils down to many "breeders" don't have a clue what they are doing, don't want to spend a dime on a litter and then , and then claim they don't do those things because it is cruel. There are a host of other reasons that this has now become "cruel" in the people's mind. I have watched the whole dog world evolve into something quite disturbing really. 

There are certain breeds I think are best to not have tails and some breeds best suited to having their ears cropped. However I am also a fan of dogs having a job and purpose as they were originally domesticated for. 

The weird thing is all the boo- hooing and whining about how cruel ears/tail being done are but have no problem doing a spay or neuter.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> First tail docking needs to be done within days after birth. When done at this time it is no more of an issue than removing extra dewclaws. Although I am not a fan of banding tails. I prefer cut and suture or surgical glue.
> 
> We had considered having our mutt Lucy's tail getting docked. She was older and it would require anesthesia and would have been far more of an issue so we didn't. I will say however this dog (Lucy's) has broken more blood vessels in people's legs than I can keep track of, as well as she has broken her tail 3 times. She has cut it and spat blood everywhere, she has smacked herself in her face so hard she has yelped and given herself welts. Her tail is truly a whip.
> 
> ...



i missed the spay/neuter part.....according to them spay/neuter is for the health of the animal...which i dont really buy.



NH homesteader said:


> The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like  and avoid the drama.  The vet didn't allow them to tell anyone who did their ears for fear of backlash.



If we ever cropped ears or adopted a crop eared dog we wouldnt lie about it. That seems a little odd but i know how people can be i guess. DH would tell them right where to go, if they tried to give us drama over it. We have had a very very few people try to bring up the tails being docked in a negative way...DH sets them straight. Also not to many people are gonna try to start anything with a man who is 6'4"


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

Lol this area is full of the type of people that you will hear it from!


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like  and avoid the drama.  The vet didn't allow them to tell anyone who did their ears for fear of backlash.



Years ago one of the vets I was close to was one of the only ones left doing the ear crops. The real reason back then had more to do with the vets NOT knowing how to do ear crops & tail docks for the specific breeds.  Some of these vets really missed the mark on the ears. Pretty bad seeing a Doberman with Pit ears.

Schnauzers are another that many just couldn't get right and IMO theirs need done good golly the ear infections on those dogs were horrible.... rarely did I see one have ear infections with cropped ears.

One really needs to look at the development of breeds... sadly some development also meant drop ears. Many LGD breeds have cropped ears in other countries and it makes sense. Far less trauma and issues for the dogs that actually work. 

@misfitmorgan  Agree! so much bs out there about spay/neuter and it is so sad. Of course it takes two.... when people just do things blindly without questioning, without educating themselves and just do as they're told that is when we have an entire culture completely brainwashed and I see this all the time. If you are 40 and under for the most part you never have been around intact animals, never been around a female in heat, don't know what to do, don't know how to manage your own dogs. I was around before all this spay/neuter junk and saw what was happening. I have watched this evolve into such crap I can't even go there. I get so mad and so frustrated. This didn't have anything to do with "too many" puppies... never did and still doesn't. If vets would take the 10-15 minutes or hand out a brochure on reproduction and heat cycles instead of bulling people into spaying and neutering for 10-15 minutes then and only then will we see a reduction. Before the spay/neuter programs we had far less dogs, far fewer shelters and far fewer nutjob crazy dogs. I have hundreds of pages of documentation but no time to compile it. When I tell people the truth about it they are kind of in disbelief at first, then comes the look of nahhhhhhhh, then comes the look of wheels turning, then come the questions. 
The only time I consider doing such is when it is actually medically necessary.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 6, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> After all we do dock our sheeps tails



Because most breeds of sheep don't have sufficient tail muscles to lift them high when they poop. Then you get a big mess back there. IIRC, Katahdin is one of the few breeds that have decent tail muscles and people don't dock them.  



NH homesteader said:


> The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like and avoid the drama.



Sorry, I have zero respect for that breeder whoever they are. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen ... and choose a different breed to own or sell.

I agree that there are specific dogs that are working and should be cropped/docked for their safety. Doesn't apply to a lap or foot warmer. Plenty of "drop ear" dogs get ear infections whether they are a breed that is typically cropped or not. Yes it is easier to keep them "aired out" if they are up. 

I don't understand why we would have more shelters and more dogs after the neuter craze started. Fewer dogs getting out and making puppies without the owner's consent or knowledge should result in the opposite.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2016)

Bruce said:


> I don't understand why we would have more shelters and more dogs after the neuter craze started. Fewer dogs getting out and making puppies without the owner's consent or knowledge should result in the opposite.



That is the point Bruce. 
When you stop teaching people HOW to be responsible this is exactly what happens.
Owning a dog use to be a very serious thing and people sacrificed to have the family dog. There certainly wasn't one in every household and even rarer for a family to have two.  

Most have no idea how much big money is in the "shelter" industry.
 The largest money maker in the vet industry is spay & Neuter.... then add all the health problems that,the bitch especially, end up with after the spay. This is why we now have "cancer centers for dogs". 

Not hard to understand really, look at today and how many people have no clue about how their food is even grown. 

As far as lap pet dogs... I suppose it is how you see dogs. Because of my background and working professionally with dogs I respectfully disagree with not doing ear cropping or tail docking because they are housepets.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 7, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> @misfitmorgan  Agree! so much bs out there about spay/neuter and it is so sad. Of course it takes two.... when people just do things blindly without questioning, without educating themselves and just do as they're told that is when we have an entire culture completely brainwashed and I see this all the time. If you are 40 and under for the most part you never have been around intact animals, never been around a female in heat, don't know what to do, don't know how to manage your own dogs. I was around before all this spay/neuter junk and saw what was happening. I have watched this evolve into such crap I can't even go there. I get so mad and so frustrated. This didn't have anything to do with "too many" puppies... never did and still doesn't. If vets would take the 10-15 minutes or hand out a brochure on reproduction and heat cycles instead of bulling people into spaying and neutering for 10-15 minutes then and only then will we see a reduction. Before the spay/neuter programs we had far less dogs, far fewer shelters and far fewer nutjob crazy dogs. I have hundreds of pages of documentation but no time to compile it. When I tell people the truth about it they are kind of in disbelief at first, then comes the look of nahhhhhhhh, then comes the look of wheels turning, then come the questions.
> The only time I consider doing such is when it is actually medically necessary.



I agree, most people have no clue about dog heat cycles and assume that because they had a dog for 4 months and it hasn't bleed on anything...well it must be spayed already. I have met many people who ended up with pregnant dogs because they thought they were spayed already and never checked for a scar or if they came into heat etc. I have also met people who did not realize that non-spayed female dogs actually bleed...you know like every other mammal on earth...and were disgusted by it so had the dog spayed. I have heard of people with long haired dogs not realizing/checking their sex and ending up with fully intacted males and females together and assuming by their "looks" they were all one sex only. Some of the things people think are really crazy. On my grandparents farm they never ever had a dog who was fixed and they only had litters when they wanted them. 

If we educated people about the heat cycles and the signs of them etc, i think we would have less dogs for one big reason. Many many many people do not get their dogs/cats fixed because "they can't afford it" but they have no clue how to prevent them from getting knocked up or knocking up someone elses dog.



Bruce said:


> Because most breeds of sheep don't have sufficient tail muscles to lift them high when they poop. Then you get a big mess back there. IIRC, Katahdin is one of the few breeds that have decent tail muscles and people don't dock them.
> 
> I agree that there are specific dogs that are working and should be cropped/docked for their safety. Doesn't apply to a lap or foot warmer. Plenty of "drop ear" dogs get ear infections whether they are a breed that is typically cropped or not. Yes it is easier to keep them "aired out" if they are up.



Hair sheep do not need their tail docked. You could also avoid docking wool sheep's tails by keeping the tail/rear area shaved down but that's only feasible for a small herd. We long dock our sheep so they retain slightly less then half of their tail.

Our mini dachshund is a house dog, pet dog, lap/foot warmer....but he is also a working dog. He herds rabbits, any smallish furry critter, and cleans rabbit warrens, under building, etc. He used to go down badger holes and drag them out etc. He is mostly retired now cause he is like 10yrs old. Of course the breed has no cropping/docking but when he was younger he got frostbite on his ears and tail which made the hair in the frostbite area grow back white on his ears and his tail to forever have bald spots....so yeah cropping and docking him could very well have been better for him.


----------



## Bossroo (Dec 7, 2016)

With all of the spay and neuter going on for decades now, has anyone asked where the shelter dogs come from ? Since the rescue business is a money maker for the top ranking folks that run the well managed  rescue organizations and in order to continue their revenue stream, seems that the rescue groups instead of closing their doors, they now transport dogs from LA  which means  that they come from their own puppy mills in Mexico, imported street dogs from the Caribean islands,   local strays, confiscated dogs from dog hoarders, and now dogs bred for their meat from S. Korea.   Then they get free labor from volunteers and operation capital from public donations and telethons, adoption fees and overpriced toys , equipment and feed. Hmmm ?


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 7, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> With all of the spay and neuter going on for decades now, has anyone asked where the shelter dogs come from ? Since the rescue business is a money maker for the top ranking folks that run the well managed  rescue organizations and in order to continue their revenue stream, seems that the rescue groups instead of closing their doors, they now transport dogs from LA  which means  that they come from their own puppy mills in Mexico, imported street dogs from the Caribean islands,   local strays, confiscated dogs from dog hoarders, and now dogs bred for their meat from S. Korea.   Then they get free labor from volunteers and operation capital from public donations and telethons, adoption fees and overpriced toys , equipment and feed. Hmmm ?



The US also transfer thousands of dogs from kill shelters here up to canada, has been for quite some time now. Seems like any other "charity" corporation that makes millions...move the goods from a place with to many to a place with to "few" and keep new "stock" coming in thru other avenues.


----------



## TAH (Dec 7, 2016)

I would like to hear more on this on spay and neuter and heat cycles? 

Our pit mix was neutered at 6 weeks old I personally think that is way to young.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 7, 2016)

SIX WEEKS!!!!!!! Yeah, way too young.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

That's what a lot of the shelters do... Amazing isn't it? Ugh.


----------



## TAH (Dec 7, 2016)

Yea it is really young.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2016)

@Bruce  I had an associate business with a vet that was in the original pilot program for early spay/neuter  ranging from 5-8 weeks. I will never forget one day he was standing there doing the surgery and said this is BS! This is wrong and I am not doing this, far too young. He went on to say quite a few other things which I won't repeat here. LOL 
He discontinued his services.

I am also not a fan of no kill shelters. Not every animal should be adopted out and not every animal should be "saved". I really tired of laymen and rescue people that have no clue and think everything should be. I hear often about how "I don't know what this poor puppy went through before we "rescued" it" and many dogs that are freaking nuts were never even abused.  People have a ridiculous notion that every psycho dog was abused and that just isn't so.

Spay and neuter also affects brain function and temperament NEGATIVELY.

LOL @soarwitheagles  I just realized what this thread was under! 
We have hi-jacked your thread 

Sorry ... this should continue elsewhere I suppose.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

Could we start a new thread? I am interested in this topic. I'd like to hear about the concept that spay/neuter has a negative affect on temperament.  My dog had major issues before he was neutered...  Then again there was a medication issue that was resolved at the same time...


----------



## Bruce (Dec 7, 2016)

Xanax?? Valium???


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

Ha no,  when we got him he had demodectic mange.  The medication we had to give him was a topical flea/tick treatment that of course I can't remember the name of...  But it made him like psychotically aggressive.  When we neutered him he only needed one more treatment and it finally cleared up.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Ha no,  when we got him he had demodectic mange.  The medication we had to give him was a topical flea/tick treatment that of course I can't remember the name of...  But it made him like psychotically aggressive.  When we neutered him he only needed one more treatment and it finally cleared up.


Back in the day Pyrethrum (the real stuff not permethrin the synthetic stuff) was used for this... several treatment also for sarcoptic mange. Nowadays usually ivermectin at certain dosages are given for demodec. At least last I am aware of. Don't have much to do in that world anymore. 
It can make any dog nuts really it is pretty unbearable. Some dogs may have a small spot and it doesn't get too bad before treatment. Some dogs it is so awful it is amazing how they make it through.

When you see these under the scope they are amazing. Sarcoptes are really freaky looking. At least the demodex looks "cleaner"


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

Holy cow...  This conversation made me discover something interesting.  My husband remembered the name of the medication and it was discontinued a few months after we stopped using it. 

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...ontinue-promeris-flea-and-tick-treatment.aspx


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Holy cow...  This conversation made me discover something interesting.  My husband remembered the name of the medication and it was discontinued a few months after we stopped using it.
> 
> http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...ontinue-promeris-flea-and-tick-treatment.aspx


Start this thread over in the other forum... I don't want to keep it going here.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

@Southern by choice @Bruce @TAH 

Moving this conversation to a new thread to avoid hijacking any longer! 

Continue...  Spay/neuter health issues and benefits.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 7, 2016)

And to all others… a reminder to please keep it civilized. I know this can be a hotly debated subject. I know I can be a hothead about some things and I'm not excluded


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

Sorry I can't remember who else was part of the conversation and it's hard to maneuver around much on my cell phone! (like the random formatting that I can't get rid of) 
And no I'm not trying to start an issue,  seriously.  I am not strongly opinionated on the subject,  just curious!


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 7, 2016)

I know, it is a good discussion over on the other thread!


----------



## Mike CHS (Dec 7, 2016)

I think there is a lot reading and those that are participating will pick it up on new posts.


----------



## CntryBoy777 (Dec 7, 2016)

Well I never had a dog that was spayed/neutered...the main reason was the difference that I saw in those that were....have had many female dogs...just my preference and knew there was Responsibility with that decision...with the average normal dog it was easy to get....but, go to a registered dog and they won't sell one that they won't 'Show' without it being done....I just wanted the dog, but they wanted to control the 'Bloodline'....so, I just settled for unpapered dogs.....it is like they loose their 'Spirit' when it is done....and most will lose their 'Aggressiveness' and become placid....of course I only have my observations to rely on, but it certainly is my opinion....it is very interesting to follow here so will be on the sidelines 'Watching' and learning.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 7, 2016)

I am young enough that I've always had spayed and neutered dogs and was always told that is what you do.  Always was told intact male dogs are mean! Ha well our friend has an intact male Spanish Alano,  big tough dog.  That also likes to cuddle with his head in my lap.  He's a doll. 

I also think people expect dogs to act like humans...  And people expect them to all be perfectly calm and well behaved and friends with other dogs in dog parks...  Well I appreciate that my dog guards the property and stands in between me and strangers.  But other people think he's got behavior issues.


----------



## CntryBoy777 (Dec 7, 2016)

I wouldn't have one that didn't...for sure.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 7, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Ha no,  when we got him he had demodectic mange.  The medication we had to give him was a topical flea/tick treatment that of course I can't remember the name of...  But it made him like psychotically aggressive.  When we neutered him he only needed one more treatment and it finally cleared up.


When our dog had demodex mange, we were told to give him ivermectin daily...for awhile.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 7, 2016)

My aunt's cat who was neutered at a young age had some sort of urinary stones problem, also at a pretty young age. He had to have very expensive surgery and the vet said, "Even though no one will tell you this and will deny this, I think that the standard neutering of neutering so young is what is causing more and more of these problems." I'm wondering if it is similar to urinary calculi in goats- you wait until they are more mature before wethering to prevent it.

We neutered our male GSD, but waited until he was a year. 

My Schnorkie is not spayed and it is not a big, messy problem when she is in heat, despite what the vet told us it would be.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 7, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I'm wondering if it is similar to urinary calculi in goats- you wait until they are more mature before wethering to prevent it.


Wethering later has shown to have less issues with UC. But if you keep everything balanced you shouldn't have an issue with it anyway


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 7, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Wethering later has shown to have less issues with UC. But if you keep everything balanced you shouldn't have an issue with it anyway


Right.
I know people who whether at 2 days old!


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 7, 2016)

I have posted a lot of info on this over the years I will try and retrieve some of them.

LOL guys I am a 2 finger punch typer (or is the term now keyboarder  ) I used a NON electric black ribbon typewriter to type with in middle and high school so I still think of it as typing!
Anyway it takes me forever to post something. 

Thanks for moving this thread  @NH homesteader


----------



## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2016)

There may be some overlap posts with tail docking and ear cropping because they involved both subjects so I copied to both threads when I moved them from Soar's thread. Hope it's not too confusing...


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 8, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> I am young enough that I've always had spayed and neutered dogs and was always told that is what you do.  Always was told intact male dogs are mean! Ha well our friend has an intact male Spanish Alano,  big tough dog.  That also likes to cuddle with his head in my lap.  He's a doll.
> 
> I also think people expect dogs to act like humans...  And people expect them to all be perfectly calm and well behaved and friends with other dogs in dog parks...  Well I appreciate that my dog guards the property and stands in between me and strangers.  But other people think he's got behavior issues.



Both of our male dobies were not neutered and we had no mean problems at all they were big babies, Issac still is a big baby. He loves to cuddle, and has no aggression towards any of our other dogs at all.



Green Acres Farm said:


> My Schnorkie is not spayed and it is not a big, messy problem when she is in heat, despite what the vet told us it would be.



I have heard many vets telling people the same thing. If you dont spay them they will bleed all over everything and it will be a giant mess and you wont want to deal with it.



TAH said:


> I would like to hear more on this on spay and neuter and heat cycles?
> 
> Our pit mix was neutered at 6 weeks old I personally think that is way to young.



Way to young, that is insane. General practice is to wait until 6 months old.


----------



## samssimonsays (Dec 8, 2016)

With our first pyr we were told to remove his double dews and have him neutered at 12 weeks old at our first vet appointment at 8 weeks old. I felt that was not right. went home and got in contact with great pyrenees people I had met on Instagram who had raised and owned them for many many years and every one of them said NEVER remove the double dews unless they are causing issues. And do not neuter him until minimum of a year. I called to cancel and the vet made it sound like we were putting his health at risk by not removing the dewclaws for him... We changed vets and he reassured us we were correct in not wanting to remove them and that we should wait to have him neutered. I am not exactly for it but it is just what people do and everyone in my family believes it as irresponsible  to keep an intact animal.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 8, 2016)

samssimonsays said:


> With our first pyr we were told to remove his double dews and have him neutered at 12 weeks old at our first vet appointment at 8 weeks old. I felt that was not right. went home and got in contact with great pyrenees people I had met on Instagram who had raised and owned them for many many years and every one of them said NEVER remove the double dews unless they are causing issues. And do not neuter him until minimum of a year. I called to cancel and the vet made it sound like we were putting his health at risk by not removing the dewclaws for him... We changed vets and he reassured us we were correct in not wanting to remove them and that we should wait to have him neutered. I am not exactly for it but it is just what people do and everyone in my family believes it as irresponsible  to keep an intact animal.



In all honesty some people are not responsible enough to own an animal let alone an intacted one, it is a fact of life. Not saying your family specifically is, just an observation. I think i would keep my animals intact just to annoy my family if they tried to be like that lol. Luckily my family learned many years ago i am going to do what i want with my livestock and pets and house and etc and they can talk all they want they are not changing my mind to suit their "needs."


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Way to young, that is insane. General practice is to wait until 6 months old.


Way too young still



samssimonsays said:


> I am not exactly for it but it is just what people do and everyone in my family believes it as irresponsible to keep an intact animal.


That is because you were given a line of BS and it became a mantra it is the "shaming" tool used by the ignorant.

Then the blind lead the blind.

No, what is irresponsible is tearing out the endocrine system of a dog without any medical reason to do so. 

I think it is a real tragedy that we choose to not educate about the subject and our culture has become so "the dr said so" minded. When we go blindly along we are foolish. I mean really, we have a whole culture that never has scratched their head and asked WHY?


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 8, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Way too young still


Thats why i said general practice. i dont spay or neuter.


----------



## samssimonsays (Dec 8, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Way too young still
> 
> 
> That is because you were given a line of BS and it became a mantra it is the "shaming" tool used by the ignorant.
> ...


I completely agree. I have clashed with multiple vets multiple times on the subject. I always find it funny that if a woman wants a hysterectomy in my state you have to have a minimum of 3 children and be 30+ years old. And anyone I have known who has had one at any point in life needs hormones supplemented to keep their body working correctly, or am I just imagining things? But that is not an option for the animals, right?  Am I the only one who put it together and finds this odd? Why are there not more people, I mean "sheople", questioning this?   The way the world has gone is to follow along and not rock the boat, give into what someone else says is right.


----------



## CntryBoy777 (Dec 8, 2016)

It is all about the $$ and not the animal...and certainly not on the 'Responsibility'....most just want an 'Ornament' for their house or yard....I have a daughter that is in that 'Boat'...even having the front 'Claws' removed from her cat....that she ended up giving away....she wasn't 'Raised' that way, but most just don't Care to listen to reason.


----------



## samssimonsays (Dec 8, 2016)

CntryBoy777 said:


> It is all about the $$ and not the animal...and certainly not on the 'Responsibility'....most just want an 'Ornament' for their house or yard....I have a daughter that is in that 'Boat'...even having the front 'Claws' removed from her cat....that she ended up giving away....she wasn't 'Raised' that way, but most just don't Care to listen to reason.


The declawing is another thing I cringe about.... I would rather not own a cat if I needed to have that done. But I was raised with indoor/outdoor cats and our first one was declawed and taken by an owl. However, THOSE need to be spay and neutered in my house. I can handle the dogs intact, a female cat on the other hand... NO THANK YOU! And the males who more times than not begin to mark in the house.... in hidden places. We had females who did also, because cats.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

@samssimonsays  I remember sharing that with you some time ago. It is the example I have used (one of many) for about 30 years now. There are a whole host of issues.

I was  just outside and @Goat Whisperer was talking about this and I was sharing a few things with her... I was telling her about the history of all these subjects we have been discussing on the (now) various threads. There was a progression of events that led us to where we are.

Truthfully it is a tough subject. I say that because even now, most people that I take the time with and give much info to are still clueless. People LOVE their dogs but loving dogs does not make a person skilled, knowledgeable, responsible, or capable. 
Experience of being in canines for as long as I have of course makes me more critical. 

Those that have always had de-sexed animals and then try the intact way because of the info often fail. Not fail as in their dog got bred and had an oops litter, but fail in being patient and learning and working with it.
One heat cycle and if they have an intact male, is like the end of the world for some. It ends up being too much "work". 
Getting through the first one helps the person to know how their bitch is it also helps them to know, if they have an intact male, will react. Not all dogs are the same. Some females give off a VERY powerful scent where another may not.  Some males respect fencing and hotwire some don't. 
Sometimes it is a PITB! Especially when you have multiple females and good golly the heats just go on and on as one after another cycles. Trust me- I know this one well! 

People have also done some really terrible things when their dogs "tie" and they are trying to get them apart. Sometimes I go
     
it takes me some time to get over my initial anger reaction and the thought of why the &*^*&%^#&%#&^$# do you have a dog!
Eventually I calm down and remember most just have never been told or taught about the subject.

I also think that in the end people need to do what is best for them. I do think they should have all the info first so they can at least make an informed decision!


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 8, 2016)

We had dew claws removed on one of our dogs but they were really unstable and begging to be ripped off.  I trust the vet that recommended it. 

It costs more to register a dog (with the town) that is intact.  People here look down on intact dogs. I would be afraid that if I had an intact dog get out of my fencing it would be shot more quickly than a neutered one. Either way I'm investing in solid fencing before I get a LGD!


----------



## Bruce (Dec 8, 2016)

It is $2 more for "unspayed" dogs here. By definition that means intact females and ALL males, right?  It is pretty nominal, $11/$13. +$2 after April 1.

In our prior town a neutered dog is $21, intact it is $25. That is if you do it between Jan 1 and April 1. Then it goes up to $39/$49 until May. Then $54/$60  So what happens if your birthday is in June and someone gives you a dog, you have to pay extra for being "late"?

And they register cats. Same dates $12/$16, $25/$31, $40/$46.

We have 3 cats. The ONLY time they go outside is when the go to the vet. I said 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




that. I refuse to pay a "cat tax" on animals that never leave the inside of the house. I just looked at their registry. Looks like a lot of scofflaws. Few cats registered in the city and at least a few unregistered dogs that I KNOW live in my old neighborhood.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 8, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> .....
> Either way I'm investing in solid fencing before I get a LGD!


Me too!


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 8, 2016)

Holy cow those are insane numbers. It's $6.50 for spayed/neutered dogs. $9 for unaltered I think.  Registering cats??? 

I never pay on time because I always forget! They don't charge extra.  They usually just get me when I go in to register one of our vehicles.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 9, 2016)

Thankfully we have no registration unless you live inside of city limits...which i of course do not. Also any LGD is considered livestock here so dont need to be registered even if your in city limits. You do however require rabies...but i give that myself so its cheap.


----------



## samssimonsays (Dec 9, 2016)

Wow, registering pets?! We don't even have a noise ordinance or leash law where we are at! That doesn't mean we can't call and complain and a sheriff will come and investigate. It takes a LOT for anyone to call. We have only called due to some very, very dangerous logs stacked poorly next to the road and they hung out over into the road a good 5 inches as well as being a very unstable 10-12 foot tall pile of 15-20 foot long logs...  The "usual" person around us who has an unaltered dog is the one who does not keep track of them. They go wandering and looking for other unaltered dogs. We always have to be careful here and keep our animals home but also everyone else's away which can prove to be more of a hassle than dealing with our own pets. 

My parents had an incident several years back with their unaltered Golden Retriever male. My dad came home to find him tied together with a female. She got onto their property and it ended up with an unintended pregnancy. That pregnancy ended in an emergency c-section/spay, one giant puppy who didn't make it and almost losing the female due to lack of containment of the dog for whatever reason. They came to my parents and asked if they would split the cost of the surgery as it was their dog who impregnated her. My dad made it very clear that if HIS dog had broken into their property and gotten her pregnant, he would have no problem with that. However, it was the other way around so he refused. Maybe it was the right call, maybe it wasn't but his reasoning is completely understandable and I would have done the same. He was responsible for his animal.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 9, 2016)

Noise ordinance? I appreciate ours... No obnoxious noise after 11. I live a mile away from a racetrack so I'm happy they are required to shut down after then! 

No leash laws here either,  we really used to have much more trouble with wandering dogs.  Not so much anymore. I have to admit what happened with your parents' dog is one of my main concerns about having an intact dog. Someone showed up at my parents house one day when I was there with my dog (and her dog was there also)  and said their dog was pregnant and they wanted to know if our dogs did it so we could pay half her vet bills....  Umm no they're both neutered and good luck with that!


----------



## samssimonsays (Dec 9, 2016)

That is crappy.


----------



## Bunnylady (Dec 9, 2016)

$10 altered/$20 intact, cats and dogs. We don't 'zactly have a leash law, but if your dog/cat has a litter and animal control finds out about it, you have a limited amount of time after the birth to obtain a "breeding permit," or you get fined. 

I have had unaltered female dogs, and not having a roofed, chain-link kennel, found it impossible to prevent either them getting out or male dogs from getting in (one female destroyed a large cage that had on previous occasions been enough to contain a rather frantic goat). Over the years, I have regrettably had to have several (found abandoned as puppies) female dogs spayed while pregnant rather than allow them to produce yet more mixed-breed-really-no-purpose-but-pets dogs. Call me lazy, or slack or what you will, but dealing with the issues of a female in heat just wasn't worth the extra expense and hassle to me.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 9, 2016)

We have no noise ordinance or leash law either. We also have documented cases where critters have broken into people property and gotten something knocked up and the critter that broke in's owner has always shown to be liable...so legally for my area your dad made the right legal choice. We also have a law that you have to fence animals out of your property though...mostly pertains to livestock. If you dont want my livestock on your property  then you have to fence your property off but i dont need too...thank you range laws. Though to keep happy neighbors we try to keep critters on our own property.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 9, 2016)

Yeah there is something wrong with "must protect yourself from other people's animals".


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 9, 2016)

Well yes.  But for people who buy land in the middle of farm land that's  been established for eons...  Maybe it's nice to have the liability on the newbie.  There are places in the country where animals can roam free and hey I can appreciate that. 

I would never not secure my animals,  BTW.  Just playing devils advocate


----------



## norseofcourse (Dec 9, 2016)

In my county dog licenses are $18 per dog, double after January 31, and no discount for altered animals.

I volunteered many years in animal rescue.  IMHO, around here, increased altering, and altering at young ages, helped with the overpopulation problem tremendously.  Although personally I think 6 weeks would be too young (the typical vet/rescue was/is altering between 2 and 3 months).  Also IMHO, the average pet owner in my area is too irresponsible to have an unaltered animal.  Way too many 'oops' litters, animals running loose, and poorly educated owners with outdated beliefs (I actually had someone call and say his purebred male Pit had gotten a dog of another breed pregnant, and he wondered how long it would be before his dog could 'breed pure' again.  I soooo wanted to tell him 'never'....).

I don't remember which thread it was on, but someone asked if there was so much more spaying/neutering because of doing it at earlier ages, why do there seem to be so many more animals looking for homes?  In my area, again IMHO, it's because increased spaying/neutering coincided with the trend towards 'no-kill' rescues.  In the last 20 years, over a dozen rescue groups started up, and because they were all 'no-kill', they quickly filled up and stayed full.  So anyone needing to find a new home for their dog/cat/kittens/puppies would call all these groups and constantly get told 'sorry, we're full'.  The more desirable ones would be more likely to get into rescue, or they sometimes got in through volunteer connections.  Eventually even the county pound got on the no-kill bandwagon, which is not entirely bad, as it means they are getting fewer dogs through their system, and they have cage space to keep them longer to find homes.

It's difficult to have a civil spay-neuter discussion, this is a good thread.  People often feel very strongly on both sides.  Being involved in animal rescues, I tend to come down more on the side of pro-altering.  Before the early age altering became common, there didn't seem to be much research on aspects of altering - what age was optimum?  Were there differences depending on gender?  On breed?  Did a female actually need to go through a heat, or have a litter, to 'get her hormones in order'?  People believed certain ways, but based on feelings, not research.  Seems there has been more research done on such subjects lately, but honestly I haven't had the time or need to get into studying it.

It's nearly midnight, so I'll end here and hope my post is somewhat coherent...


----------



## promiseacres (Dec 10, 2016)

I have to agree with Norse too many uneducated  (some really don't want to be educated ) people out there. Altering dogs and cats is really best because of it. Personally I won't have an unaltered dog or cat. I am not against responsible breeders of either but it's a huge commitment I choose not to make. Does early altering cause cancer?...would lean that whatever is causing it in humans might just be a source. 
We do have a leash law in Indiana and recently got my lifetime permit to carry. While wild predators exist usually it's someone precious pet that causes problems.


----------



## Calendula (Dec 10, 2016)

I agree that too many people are uneducated, myself included. Does anyone have links or advice about dog breeding and keeping unaltered dogs? I would prefer to not alter my dogs in the future and possibly breed them (responsibly, of course!) but a quick Google search brought up nonsense and an AKC link that had very little helpful information.
That is, if I can even find breeders that don't have contracts specifying that you have to neuter and spay.

As for the topic at hand, I found an article at some point that had information regarding several experiments find with several different breeds of dogs regarding spaying/neutering. The unaltered dogs led longer, happier lives while the altered dogs were more prone to disease and anxiety, particularly thunderstorm anxiety. It said that the best age to fix a dog was after six years because of the affect of hormones that they received.
In my own experience, I have only owned two dogs. One was a chocolate Lab that we kept unaltered for six years before finally fixing her. She lived until fourteen without any major issues.
My other dog was fixed soon after we got him and his balls dropped. I want to say about four or five months? Now, he did have some separation anxiety but no fear of thunderstorms in the least bit. After he was fixed, HORRIBLE separation anxiety. And then at some point, he developed thunderstorm anxiety! Maybe it's something that shows up later in their life, but I somehow highly doubt it.


----------



## samssimonsays (Dec 10, 2016)

We had an oops litter with our female and male as many of you followed. She had gone through two prior heats with zero issues and then all of a sudden she nearly broke my fingers to get to our male, we kept them separate and they would howl and scream for each other which is totally normal but the male also marked everything in the house and became a little too possessive after that point. We were not irrisponsoble as we had been doing everything correct. Circumstances changed and the dong became dead set she would be getting to the male. For us, with her and that specific male we were better off to neuter him. He quit marking. He also went back to being ok when any other dog approached her. He went back to being himself pre breeding. Some dogs it is in their favor to spay and neuter and I do agree that most people should as they are clueless or want to make a buck off of puppies. We requested the oops litter we had be spayed and neutered due to them being crosses with herding and lgd breeds. one owner did not but she is able to handle it responsibly. Two of the females that I know of became extra possessive of "their" things and were much more on the dominant side that lead to uneasyness in the home with the other dogs. Once spayed, everything evened out and normalcy was achieved. Two of the males became much easier to handle and mellowed in their anxiety (car rides were bad for one and separation for another) and they are much more even dogs. some dogs it is in their favor and I feel it should be done. Others, there is no need. I grew up with a collie who was never altered. We had wanted to breed her but she was dominant so never did. She didn't get spayed until age ten when she ended up with a uterine infection which we were told was common in older dogs. I also grew up with a mini weener dog. She is 14 now? And still not spayed. One get wanted to spay her and remove the mamary tumors from her as well but for a 7 pound dog that old we felt it was more of a risk than a possitive and my mom was made to feel like she didnt want her dog to live a happy healthy life when she left there..... She's 14,will spraying really make her live that much longer? No, it won't. We still get cards in the mail stating Stella is over due and to call and make an appointment to get her spayed from our Vet.  they can waste the time and money to ship those all they want.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> It's difficult to have a civil spay-neuter discussion, this is a good thread. People often feel very strongly on both sides. Being involved in animal rescues, I tend to come down more on the side of pro-altering.



To me it is a matter of HOW it is being done. The way it is done here has horrible effects on the animals. That is what is infuriating. 

Not too long ago there was a vet (I think Alabama) she did lots of spay/neuters especially for shelter animals or those that got animals for the shelter. Her procedure was different. It was FASTER, SAFER, and LESS EXPENSIVE! She ended up before the vet medical board.
Why?
Basically all the other vets were pissed because she was "undercutting" them. Yep, that was part of the complaint. I forget what they called it ... price undercutting or something or other. The board actually sent out a team to see her procedure. They also concluded it was faster and safer etc.... however that was NOT the procedure she was taught in vet school so they had a problem with it. 

As far as uneducated and people not responsible enough to have intact animals... 2 sides to look at here.
Look at all the uneducated people that know nothing about the disastrous health effects of spay and neuter (referring to the desexing way that we do here in the states). I also find it disturbing that so many look at a person and remarks made and think they are obviously to uneducated to get it.
Not so.
With anything there are things we are all ignorant about... until we become educated about that particular subject.

If we look on this forum and how many people get goats or sheep and are new and don't know much... they come here and lots of people walk them along, share with them, teach them, educate them. It is no different with dogs. Yet who is taking the time? Rarely anyone unless you are passionate about it. 

People who really care about the spay & Neuter programs should be demanding better ways and safer and not the desexing as we do here. It is appalling that we care so much about unwanted litters yet we care nothing of the dogs health lifelong. Dogs in shelters are not all because of unwanted puppies. Many dogs are nutjobs plain and simple. Shelters used to be far better IMO years ago. Dogs were allowed to be kept at the shelters and put up for adoption if they met certain criteria. With all the no kill nonsense we have serious problems. There really are dogs that should be put down. If you notice people adopting from the shelters must sign waivers. These waivers protect the shelters from getting sued. 

All this info has been there but those who over the years spoke up were hushed, quieted, and suppressed. I am referring to veterinarians here, not laymen.

There are more vets starting to stand up now and more studies are being done. 

Even with the current way we do spays here now. Procedure called for the cervix to be removed as well, yet that went by the wayside.

Leaving the ovaries and removing the uterus and cervix would allow for proper body balance.




Calendula said:


> The unaltered dogs led longer, happier lives while the altered dogs were more prone to disease and anxiety, particularly thunderstorm anxiety.



*Yes, that is correct.
Also they found this to be the case in MALE dogs and it didn't matter at what age they were neutered! young or older had no baring. Fear of thunderstorm and anxiety developed after castration. CASTRATION is the key here.
This is very critical info for LGD owners especially.*

There are also lots  of myths around spay/neuter.

As far as temperament and aggression- 
Females tend to become MORE aggressive after spay
Males do not lose their aggression* if they are an aggressive* dog.
It is not a cure all for marking (lifting leg) males. Most male dogs will  mark if a female is in heat... I am referring to males that mark constantly
Females have more bladder issues when spayed especially when young.

There is a whole long list.


----------



## Bossroo (Dec 10, 2016)

While the no kill shelters are full of "un-adoptable" dogs, and they have telemarketing events at the tv telethons as well as mail out letters  asking for money ad nosium.  We have spayed and neutered dogs for decades now, and the shelters are still overflowing . WHY ?    The more national rescue groups have turned to IMPORTING street dogs from other countries as they say there is a shortage of dogs to adopt and more recently dogs from S. Korea that are from dog meat breeders.  These dogs are the dogs bred as fighting dogs originally from Japan.Big dogs with more meat but NO MANNERS . About a year and a half ago the Portland , Oregon rescue group that imported just over 100 of these dogs then had several full page articles on this "fabulous " rescue.  After several months of rehabitating these dogs, they adopyed out about 5 of these dogs and again they had newspaper and TV news releases of their "successful" adoptions.  But nary a word of what happened to the rest of them. W H Y  do the "rescues" need to go out of the USA to "rescue " dogs other than to line their own pockets with our hard earned money ???????


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 11, 2016)

Bruce said:


> Yeah there is something wrong with "must protect yourself from other people's animals".



Not really. Large livestock can often break fences without to much trouble and we are a range state. Free range poultry are another problem. The law came about because of city folks moving into the middle of farm land and trying to sue farmers when their livestock got loose and say dug up their lawn or made hoof marks in it. It was really getting out of hand so they made the laws mostly for the city folks. the law does not cover you for damages in neighboring property to other livestock, buildings , vehicles, fencing, etc. Mostly its just for "damage" to grass, flowerbeds, trees, you know things that will usually always recover with time so that the courts are not backed up with frivolous lawsuits about someones grass getting messed up but it has its limits. If your pastured pig herd gets loose and digs someones entire lawn they can still sue and would likely win. Most people that live in farming areas now are pretty understanding when livestock gets loose unless it is a repeated issue. 



Calendula said:


> I agree that too many people are uneducated, myself included. Does anyone have links or advice about dog breeding and keeping unaltered dogs? I would prefer to not alter my dogs in the future and possibly breed them (responsibly, of course!) but a quick Google search brought up nonsense and an AKC link that had very little helpful information.
> That is, if I can even find breeders that don't have contracts specifying that you have to neuter and spay.
> 
> As for the topic at hand, I found an article at some point that had information regarding several experiments find with several different breeds of dogs regarding spaying/neutering. The unaltered dogs led longer, happier lives while the altered dogs were more prone to disease and anxiety, particularly thunderstorm anxiety. It said that the best age to fix a dog was after six years because of the affect of hormones that they received.
> ...



My chihuahua mix is unaltered and is perfectly fine at 12yrs old. Our mini dachshund was neutered at 2yrs old after DH ex-wife's complained for 6 months that her mother said they should neuter their dogs and according to DH he became immediately more of a little butthead and whiney as well as picking up the habit of marking in the house..he is now almost 10yrs old and still marks in the house and we can not break the habit. So no i dont think fixing him "because its what you do" was the right decision in his case. Our dobie before Issac lived to be almost 10 and that dobies mother lived to be 12yrs old..which is old for a large bred...both were intacted.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 11, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> While the no kill shelters are full of "un-adoptable" dogs, and they have telemarketing events at the tv telethons as well as mail out letters  asking for money ad nosium.  We have spayed and neutered dogs for decades now, and the shelters are still overflowing . WHY ?    The more national rescue groups have turned to IMPORTING street dogs from other countries as they say there is a shortage of dogs to adopt and more recently dogs from S. Korea that are from dog meat breeders.  These dogs are the dogs bred as fighting dogs originally from Japan.Big dogs with more meat but NO MANNERS . About a year and a half ago the Portland , Oregon rescue group that imported just over 100 of these dogs then had several full page articles on this "fabulous " rescue.  After several months of rehabitating these dogs, they adopyed out about 5 of these dogs and again they had newspaper and TV news releases of their "successful" adoptions.  But nary a word of what happened to the rest of them. W H Y  do the "rescues" need to go out of the USA to "rescue " dogs other than to line their own pockets with our hard earned money ???????



Locally we have almost no shelter dogs because everyone uses craigslist or facebook to get rid of litters now. We do however have a lot of cats in the local shelters. Literally the town north of us has currently 30 cats and 3 dogs, our local shelter has 21 cats and 2 dogs...even shelters in detroit have 54 cats and 29 dogs. This is far less then there used to be but there is a far greater number of private shelters/rescues in the state then there used to be as well as a shipment of 97 pets just went from a detroit shelter to canada approximately 6 months ago.


----------



## Ferguson K (Dec 11, 2016)

We have 10 dogs and 4 cats. The only "altered" or "fixed " animals a have came out of rescue groups or shelters. We have not had an accidental litter in a while. One cat last year, but that's because I totally missed the signs of her going into heat due to being stressed and overwhelmed at work.

I am more careful now. Our 2 unaltered females are monitored carefully and our tom cat is kept away from him during "those" times.

Our three unaltered dogs are also females. Our LGD girls are not fixed and my Chihuahua isnt. We monitor and move them according to heat cycles , but with our unaltered male dog dead now we dont stress as much as we did. Joker was a total sweetheart and wouldn't harm a fly, and he was an intact pit bred for hog hunting. He had an amazing ability to take down a hog, but he was a total love bug at home.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 11, 2016)

We have 4 dogs, 2 neutered, 2 intact. The GP's are intact, the Australian Shepherd (female) and black Labrador/Great Dane (male) are both neutered. The neutered dogs are both happy, healthy and have no problems. The Aussie is 10 years old, the Lab/Dane is 6 years old. The Aussie is terrified of thunderstorms, but was found after a hurricane, so is it the spay or being lost during a hurricane that did that to her? The Lab/Dane loves to play in the rain and thunder doesn't faze him one bit. Both had been neutered before we got them. Both were so-called "rescue" animals.

The Great Pyrenees are intact. Paris, female, is terrified of thunderstorms. Absolutely around the bend scared slap to death, she goes to pieces. Trip, the male doesn't care if it is raining, but acts uneasy in thunderstorms. Both have always had a safe shelter. Paris went mad dog crazy last time she was in heat. It made me want to spay her. I don't want her bred. The spay that @Southern by choice mentioned that leaves the ovaries might be an option.

When I used to have cats, they were always neutered. The howling of a cat in heat is not something that I want to deal with. As my cats were indoor/outdoor cats, I was not going to contribute to the unwanted kitten population. Since our son-in-law is terribly allergic to cats, we don't have them any more.

I don't think spay/neuter is necessarily a bad thing. I do believe that a dog should reach a certain age or be allowed to mature before being neutered. I cut my ram lambs at 2 weeks old and will cut the one on the ground now, next weekend.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 11, 2016)

We have 2 altered and 2 unaltered. Chihuahua and dobie are unaltered, mini wiener dog and doberdoodle are altered. Chihuahua is scared of thunderstorms and old unaltered dobie also was, current dobie, mini wiener and doberdoodle could care less. Doberdoodle came altered and DH ex-wife had mini wiener altered.


----------



## luvmypets (Dec 14, 2016)

My whole life I have been drilled that you MUST fix dogs from a shelter. When we got my Mom's dog Maggie as a four month old pup, we had to promise we would fix her. At my barn we have a tenant who does dog agility. They are also Aussie breeders, and I know they do not fix any of their dogs. I haven't noticed much "bad" from these dogs, except every once and a while a little hormones. However, the one male bred a nine year old female, they had no idea until they did an ultrasound and she had 11 pups . They ended up spaying her for her health. They are very responsible breeders. I feel like unless the dog has serious hormone issues you should leave it as it is. My dog Shadow was nuts when we first got him. He is an aussieXcollie and before he was fixed he was crazy, he was just wild and hard to control. He was trained basic obedience. After he got fixed he calmed down a lot.


----------



## cjc (Dec 22, 2016)

Just to add to this conversation, I have not read the entire post but it looks like they are about to/have banned tail docking and ear cropping the province I live in:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-tail-docking-ban-1.3842230

Ear cropping has already been ban and I don't know if this means breeders can still do tail docking but vet's cannot.

A few years ago we were going to buy some what of a "guard dog". Really a dog that just looked scary so people would stop coming onto our property, somewhat of a deterrent. I was looking at getting a Presa Canario and talked to my vet about cropping the ears, this was about 5 years ago. She said she would never do that and that it was cruel. I was surprised by that but it made me second guess my decision.

I am not sure what I believe. We have a farm dog with a cropped tail, we got him that way from the breeder.

About the whole spaying and neutering topic. We have a lot of people around us that try to make money off of their dogs and cats. Literally just breeding all year long no matter the dogs or cats to try and get some extra cash, I know this exists everywhere. As everywhere we have thousands of stray cats in shelters and a ton of feral cats out in farm land. I always thought it would be an interesting concept to charge people to not spay and neuter their dogs and fine them if they don't pay some what of a licensing fee to have them in tact. I know that could bring a lot of opinions but it may help some of these people that have no business breeding stop. I didn't feel bad when I neutered my male dog but I did feel bad when I spayed my female for some reason. I had no idea they remove all of her lady parts inside! But makes sense.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2016)

cjc said:


> I had no idea they remove all of her lady parts inside! But makes sense.


It actually does not make sense and it is unnecessary and adds so many health issues long term. There is generally no need to fully de-sex. There are better and safer ways to spay. 

As far as a law for intact animals. Hmmm.... so because we have some idiots lets punish all those who are responsible. Doesn't work that way. You are still going to have idiots.

Ok- so I know I am opening this up for a LOT of people to get really PO'd and that isn't my intent but much of this "cruel" mentality has come about with the rise in female veterinarians.  

This was mentioned to me some years back when I saw how vet med was changing and the disturbing trend I was seeing. I kind of scoffed and took it as a "slam" toward women and just rolled my eyes. 
BUT after some time I realized it was true. Recently in one of the veterinary mags I read they actually had a study on the subject.
I was very surprised to see it.

We also see today that many people are not having children by choice and their pets are their "children". This is feeding into a very dangerous and very disturbing mentality. First pets are NOT children. EVER. They never will be. Those that have children know this and have a general healthy respect for their pets. This mentality is actually hurting the animals.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 22, 2016)

As much a I hate puppy mills, I don't think charging people with intact animals would have any benefit. They will still mill their animals and find a way around the fee.
Dogs in NC are all supposed to be vaccinated for rabies (as an example) but I can tell you many of these mills don't. They just don't care.

It would only hurt those that know the problems associated with spay/neuter and keep their animals intact for those beliefs. You can have intact animals not not breed them or have "oops" litters. One just needs to be educated on a heat cycle. 

You are right, over population is an issue in the pet world. I do think if people were educated about animal reproduction there would be less. Wouldn't eliminate it, you will still have people who just don't care. People are so used to having "fixed" animals they have no clue how to handle a dog in heat. Kinda sad really. NOT trying to start a war, just throwing different ideas around 

Many will argue that ear cropping and tail docking are cruel, but don't give spay/neuter a second thought. I don't think either are cruel… but I have seen several spays and it isn't gentle! One would be SHOCKED at the force needed to pull out the ovaries and uterus. A lot of pulling goes on so that the vessels snap (you have less bleeding when a vessel is pulled & "snapped" vs cutting. ).


----------



## cjc (Dec 22, 2016)

Well I guess to a point they already do charge people that have intact animals in our area. We have to pay a license fee for every dog/cat. $25 for a spayed/neutered dog, $100 for in tact.

I personally would never not spay or neuter my pets but like I said I did feel bad for spaying my female. I almost felt like I failed her. But I am just never interested in having puppies.

After reading about cropping ears I decided I wouldn't do it. But tail docking at birth we did decide to do with our last pup.


----------



## luvmypets (Dec 22, 2016)

Interesting points, I personally have never had a intact dog.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2016)

cjc said:


> I personally would never not spay or neuter my pets





luvmypets said:


> Interesting points, I personally have never had a intact dog.




Why?


----------



## luvmypets (Dec 22, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Why?


I was never educated. Its just what they told us to do. After reading I know there is a lot they dont tell us. I have had five dogs in my lifetime thus far and all of them were fixed.


----------



## cjc (Dec 22, 2016)

I would never not spay or neuter because I would not be interested in having a litter of puppies...ever. We tried to hold out on neutering our last dog but he was hump crazy, we made it to just past his first birthday. We were just told by the breeder he would be a better dog if we left it longer. I don't like putting my dogs through surgery but I am that lady that cries when I drop off my dogs at the vet for any kind of surgery. Another reason i cant have puppies, because i cant keep the whole litter. Even with my cows the local cattle guy says to me weekly "you can't keep them all...because literally i do. My dogs are pure pets. I guess it has been embedded in my head that it's the right thing to do. Whether that's right or wrong I don't know but it's just what we have always done in our family.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2016)

Thanks for both of your replies.

I am a big believer in questioning everything! Seriously... been doing that since I was 3 according to my mom. 

I have always questioned and investigated and searched for truth in just about everything in life. It has served me well.
Without that drive my daughter would not be alive. 

It bothers me that we are in a culture of not really educating but just being programmed to do as we are told and not question. Logic seems to be a thing of the past and thinking skills are not encouraged. Personally I don't care what people do I just want them to be able to make educated decisions and when people are not given a real opportunity and not told the whole truth it makes me quite angry. 

All my dogs in life have been intact. Never had an accidental litter.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 22, 2016)

cjc said:


> Well I guess to a point they already do charge people that have intact animals in our area. We have to pay a license fee for every dog/cat. $25 for a spayed/neutered dog, $100 for intact.
> 
> I personally would never not spay or neuter my pets but like I said I did feel bad for spaying my female. I almost felt like I failed her. But I am just never interested in having puppies.
> 
> After reading about cropping ears I decided I wouldn't do it. But tail docking at birth we did decide to do with our last pup.


I would guess there are a LOT of unregistered animals where you live given those prices. Where I live now there is no registration for cats and neutered/intact dogs is $11/$13 through March 31. I looked up my old city because I know they also have a "cat tax" as I call it. If you register there by March 31 the prices are $21/$25 for dogs, $12/$16 for cats. I noticed that they have a registration list on line. I looked at it for my old neighborhood. There are quite a number of unregistered dogs there. If many people there aren't registering at $25, I can't imagine how many aren't doing it in your city for $100.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 22, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> It actually does not make sense and it is unnecessary and adds so many health issues long term. There is generally no need to fully de-sex. There are better and safer ways to spay.
> 
> As far as a law for intact animals. Hmmm.... so because we have some idiots lets punish all those who are responsible. Doesn't work that way. You are still going to have idiots.
> 
> ...



@Southern by choice i value your opinion and thoughts as always but our dogs are our children. No in a sense that we baby them and dress them up and let them eat at he table....we are not crazy but we are unable to have children and atm do not have the 10k to adopt a child and the county turned us down at this time for fostering because we only have a roughly 700sqft 2 bedroom home. In a few years when we build our new house it will be 3 bedrooms and approx 1200sqft plus a full basement to build more bedrooms and then we can re-apply to foster. Until then our dogs are our kids 

We also give our own rabies shots.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 22, 2016)

I don't think there's a problem with that...  Because you have rules and structure and remember that they are your dog kids!


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2016)

I refer to my dogs as my "babies" as well but make no mistake- they are not and never will be an equivalent to children.

I just lost Callie, our Anatolian. Has hurt to the core.
But lets put it in perspective.
As much as this has devastated me and actually made me physically ill, that loss is not the same.

Once I move I will get another Anatolian. In other words she will be replaced. No another dog will not be like Callie but she will be replaced. The lifespan of our beloved pets is short 10-13 years on average. I have lost several children due to miscarriage and I lost a twin. I have also had a child sent home to die and had to look at the reality of picking out her casket. I can assure you the grief and pain is nowhere the same.

I have lost a sister as well. I have friends in life hat have lost their child to cancer & accidents as well as birth defects. You can't go out and just get a "new" one. 

The grief and pain of the loss of a real child is not comparable.

If my child and my dog were both in a situation of peril ... well seriously ... no brainer any human in there right mind would save their child. A dog is never the equivalent to a human.

Our dogs do communicate with us, we have relationships with them but the best dogs are dogs that are allowed to be dogs. 
Anxiety, stress, neurosis have been on the rise in canines for several decades now. Most of these issues are directly related to the fact that these incredible animals are not allowed to be dogs, they are being turned into something they are not. The increase of psych meds for dogs has skyrocketed ... this should tell us something.

Most separation anxiety is from owners not recognizing early signs and generally not knowing any better they end up feeding into it.
Sometimes you just have a nutjob dog too!   They happen!

 So yes, they are our "babies" but we must remember that if we love these creatures we must respect what they are and not try to make them something they are not. I believe in respect. I respect and appreciate my "babies" enough to allow them the dignity of being what they are... INCREDIBLE dogs! 

They sure are my heart!


----------



## cjc (Dec 22, 2016)

Not that this has anything to do with backyard herds but I feel you ladies. My dogs are my babies because I also struggled. So I totally understand @misfitmorgan. I love my dogs a lot and although different there is a lot to be said about a fur baby. But I am FINALLY expecting my first human baby. I now have a Chihuahua who is the most undesirable family pet that is about to be one. My cows also don't understand why the boys are holding them down now and I have been watching them from the sidelines!


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 22, 2016)

Congrats @cjc! I'm struggling to have my 2nd (which I have not told a soul so hey let's spill the beans here)so I get it too.


----------



## Mike CHS (Dec 22, 2016)

Congratulations to all of you and we appreciate being among the first to know.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 22, 2016)

Well no congrats to me needed...  Yet...  Haha maybe someday.  But congrats to  @cjc

Edit: I jus realize how poorly worded my post was lol. I hadn't told anyone I was trying... I was commiserating with having difficulty.  Not with being a big pregnant farmer.  Yet.  But you guys will be among the first to know if that happens!


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 22, 2016)

Oh how wonderful!


----------



## cjc (Dec 22, 2016)

Thank you! I am culturing my baby to country music and the sounds of mooing! This baby will come out a country bumpkin. I cannot wait.

But if I can ever offer any support to any of you ladies always feel free to message me. I have been through it all, losses, surgery, IVF, literally hell and back. My bottle calves and my dogs filled a void for me, and I think fur babies are a wonderful thing to have. My dogs have been through a lot with me and they are my babies. That's why I can't leave them intact haha! I would literally have a zoo on my hands I could never part with a single one.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 22, 2016)

Congratulations


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 22, 2016)

Congratulations!


----------



## TAH (Dec 22, 2016)

Congratulations @cjc!!!!!


----------



## Baymule (Dec 23, 2016)

@cjc congratulations on the pregnancy. I pray that all goes well with you and that you are blessed with a healthy baby. What a blessing!

@NH homesteader don't pressure yourself because you don't immediately become pregnant when you think you should. Our DD and DSIL had a 7 year old girl when we started out process of moving here. They had practically given up on having another child. We got the great news that we were going to have another grand baby. She was born the day we closed on selling our old house, we made it to the hospital with 45 minutes to spare before she was born. She'll be 2 in February and is such a joy. Then Lo and Behold! They had another daughter September 1 of this year. So they went to one child with little hope of another, to three! Maybe the timing was so that we would be here?


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 23, 2016)

Thanks Bay.  My only rush is that I don't want to deal with  the whole "advanced maternal age"  stuff.  Which BTW is 35, and doesn't seem very "advanced"  to me! Lol. But the risk of many complications increases and I want to avoid that. But,  as a former special education teacher I am far more worried about  things than the average person because I've been surrounded by disabilities and medical complications for so long.


----------



## Devonviolet (Dec 23, 2016)

I have read this thread with great interest.

My pets were always spayed or neutered until we got our LGDs. I had always been told it was "the responsible thing to do". My sweet Maine Coon mix was abandoned, by his mother at the age of 3 weeks. I found him on our local shelter's website at 5 weeks & they wouldn't let me take him until he was neutered at six weeks.

I signed an agreement, when we got our pure bred Maremmas, that I would have the male neutered since they were siblings.

Then I had a private conversation with Southern. She changed my way of thinking about spay/neuter. Two major considerations, for me, are growth plate development (which is slowed when neutered, and can lead to hip displasia) and hormonal imbalance. As a nurse, I am aware that, in humans & animals alike, removing hormone producing organs (i.e. thyroid, pancreas, ovaries, testicals, etc), causes an imbalance in the hormonal synergy, that we were born with. Ultimately, that imbalance can wreck havoc in our health, in varying degrees.  BTW, when I told the breeder that we weren't going to have Deo neutered, she was really upset with me, since I had agreed to do so. I told her I had concerns about his health and assured her we would be diligent about preventing a pregnancy, but she was still upset with me.

Violet didn't have her first heat until she was 11 months old. The _second_ we realized she was in heat we separated them. There is a 6' high fence between the goats & chickens. Deo does better with not chasing the chickens, so we put him in with the birds and two of our 4 goats. In the beginning there was a bit of angst over the separation. But, they eventually relaxed & spent a lot of time laying next to each other with the fence between them.

About five months later, knowing that another heat could be imminant, I started worrying about preventing an oops litter. Then one day it occurred to me that I could have the Vet do a vasectomy, which would prevent a pregnancy, but leave Deo's hormones intact.

So, when we took the dogs to the Vet, for annual vaccinations, I asked if he would do a vasectomy. He said he had never done one, but he wouldn't have a problem doing it. The cost was a little more than $200, which is what he charges for neutering.

Southern told me something that the Vet either didn't know, or forgot to tell me . . . when a vasectomy is done, there is a six week period, in which a female could still get pregnant. So, we continued to watch Violet very carefully for signs of heat. It turned out, that she didnt go into heat until six months later - 2 weeks before her 2nd birthday.

We had thought about breeding Violet, at some point. But, now that we have seen how much work is involved, in breeding purebred litters, and having a lot on our plates, with DH recently turning 70 and slowing down, we decided not to breed her.

Violet is rather subdued & doesn't seem to attract other dogs when she is in heat. So, at least for now, we will leave her intact. I would be surprised if Deo would allow another male to get anywhere near her, if she had a heat with strong pheromones. If it ever does become a concern, with her becoming pregnant, we will likely do a partial hysterectomy, leaving her ovaries intact.

One more thought on a comment early on in this thread, about spay/neuter causing FLUTD (Feline Lower Urinary Tract Disease) aka urinary crystals. I have had 2 cats with FLUTD. it is extremely painful and can kill a cat if left go for too long.

In doing research online, I learned that the general concensus is that a high carb/grain diet is what causes the crystals to form & build up as sludge in the cats bladder. That leads to a painful bladder infection.  Some cats are more susceptible than others. 

Since cats are obligate cornivores, their system isn't set up to use all the carbs in a diet that includes daily grains. Since commercial cat food started including grains, we have seen a huge increase in the incidence of diabetes in cats. Prior to that, diabetes was virtually non-existent.

For that reason, we feed our two cats a grain free dry food. We also add liquid & canned food, to keep their stool soft and prevent constipation. My experience had been that when we feed strictly dry food our cats get constipated. When we went to adding plain kefir (a good source of probiotics) and canned food to their diet, they both stopped having hard, stools with pieces of undigested food.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 23, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Thanks Bay.  My only rush is that I don't want to deal with  the whole "advanced maternal age"  stuff.  Which BTW is 35, and doesn't seem very "advanced"  to me! Lol. But the risk of many complications increases and I want to avoid that. But,  as a former special education teacher I am far more worried about  things than the average person because I've been surrounded by disabilities and medical complications for so long.


So how old are you? I was 27 when I had my son and 31 when I had my daughter. I fully understand the concern over disabilities and birth defects.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm 32. Had my daughter at 28.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 23, 2016)

Lots of women that have trouble getting pregnant get pregnant when they stop trying


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 23, 2016)

ok a little humor here... just noticed we are all talking about age of having kids and women being moms on a spay /neuter thread!


I love this group!


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 23, 2016)

Yeah see how good we are at hijacking... In very strange directions! 

Back on topic...  Embarrassingly on topic.  I always assumed if you had intact dogs it would be constant breeding.  The wife of the breeder we got Clara from was like...  Uh do you know how often a dog goes into heat? Yeah...  I didn't.


----------



## Devonviolet (Dec 23, 2016)

Southern by choice said:
. . . we are all talking about age of having kids and women being moms on a spay /neuter thread!

* * * * * * * * * * * * 


  

​


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 23, 2016)

It is very possible to have intact dogs and not have puppies. 

SBC has a 10 year old mutt that is intact (female) who has never had any pups.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm good with whatever way a thread floats. It is more conversational and more "family like". '

@NH homesteader  this is why I feel it is so much better to educate others. Truth is many don't know.
Years ago on here a poster put up pics because her and her husband didn't know if the dog they just got from a breeder was m/f.

There were a lot of people that did get kinda mean.
I saw it different, she asked a genuine question and really didn't need to be insulted over it. Long story short she was told the dog was a male... she didn't think it was. She was right!

It really is like anything... we don't know something til we know ... it really is that simple. People should not feel ashamed or embarrassed because they don't know something. Sometimes it is funny like when people think that brown eggs are brown because the chickens poop them out.  

I have always had intact animals. The females would go into heat we'd keep them separate and no big deal.

Except cats- CATS GET DONE! The weird thing is the studies with cats do not seem to coincide with the findings in dogs. Night/day difference.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 23, 2016)

I've heard cats can get urinary crystals if neutered too young.  Which,  is common as our humane society neuters at like 6 weeks. But I don't (and won't)  have cats so I don't know all that much. 

Haven't we all had to ask questions that we look back on and go...  Seriously,  I asked that? I like this forum more than most,  I've read some judgemental answers to questions on some others.


----------



## Mike CHS (Dec 23, 2016)

This thread has my interest and I'm curious what you would do with a herding dog that has a testicle that hasn't dropped.  He is a champion blood line that is an awesome herding dog but we aren't planning on breeding.  Would you castrate or ?????

This is obviously off topic so we can disregard if needed,


----------



## Bruce (Dec 23, 2016)

Questioning whether a dog with a testicle that hasn't dropped should be neutered on this thread IS on topic. Even if there is a general "don't neuter" philosophy, medical conditions might dictate otherwise. Where better to ask?


----------



## Mike CHS (Dec 23, 2016)

Thanks Bruce.  We did not neuter because this dog could potentially be one of the best in the country but no matter what we want to do what is the best for the dog.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 23, 2016)

What has been confirmed?
Is it truly an undescended testicle or is he monorchid?


----------



## TAH (Dec 23, 2016)

Most of my dad's dogs were intact and he never had an oops litter, so he has never been into spaying and neutering dogs. He plans on having all our dogs intact except for our pit who is already neutered. Now I have some questions on health issue I have been told about if you don't spay your dog. My friend has had many dogs and she is all about spaying if you don't breed. She has told me that if you don't ever breed a female dog then they will have cancer and will only live to be 7-8? I have also heard about female dogs being aggressive with other male intact dogs but after spaying are fine, is there a hormonal thing that causes this? 

Another question that a friend asked me a while back is spaying a dog at 6 cause lots of health problems?


----------



## Mike CHS (Dec 24, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> What has been confirmed?
> Is it truly an undescended testicle or is he monorchid?




That is something we weren't asked and we had not heard of.  We will have to follow up with a with this or another vet.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 24, 2016)

@Southern by choice, you were saying (I think) that dogs can only get pregnant during certain parts of their heat cycle? When our vet was telling us to get my dog spayed and warning us about all the dangers of having an intact dog, he said that she could get pregnant a week before, during, and a week after her heat cycle.


----------



## Bossroo (Dec 24, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> @Southern by choice, you were saying (I think) that dogs can only get pregnant during certain parts of their heat cycle? When our vet was telling us to get my dog spayed and warning us about all the dangers of having an intact dog, he said that she could get pregnant a week before, during, and a week after her heat cycle.


This vet was asleep during the "birds and the bees " class or out and out to pocket your $$$s.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2016)

TAH said:


> My friend has had many dogs and she is all about spaying if you don't breed. She has told me that if you don't ever breed a female dog then they will have cancer and will only live to be 7-8? I have also heard about female dogs being aggressive with other male intact dogs but after spaying are fine, is there a hormonal thing that causes this?
> 
> Another question that a friend asked me a while back is spaying a dog at 6 cause lots of health problems?



Your friend is very wrong on all accounts.
Spaying a female after 5-6 years of age lowers the probability of the cancers that early spay cause.
I have always had intact animals as well as many others, this is simply not true. This is part of the mantra that has been repeated for so long that people just believe it.

A vet told a client that had a dog that was recently diagnosed with cancer that the dog got cancer because it was never fixed. One of the employees asked if that is true then why did the other 8 dogs that were here this week (all diagnosed with cancer) have cancer and they were all "fixed". 



Green Acres Farm said:


> @Southern by choice, you were saying (I think) that dogs can only get pregnant during certain parts of their heat cycle? When our vet was telling us to get my dog spayed and warning us about all the dangers of having an intact dog, he said that she could get pregnant a week before, during, and a week after her heat cycle.



Either there was a misunderstanding or your vet needs to go back to school.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 24, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> A vet told a client that had a dog that was recently diagnosed with cancer that the dog got cancer because it was never fixed. One of the employees asked if that is true then why did the other 8 dogs that were here this week (all diagnosed with cancer) have cancer and they were all "fixed".



Um, does that employee still have a job? Hope the question made the vet think hard about his/her "intact = cancer" belief.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2016)

Bruce said:


> Um, does that employee still have a job? Hope the question made the vet think hard about his/her "intact = cancer" belief.



Yep. 

Years ago when I had a business in a vet clinic (separate) I challenged the vet on several things as well. The difference was this vet wasn't threatened and listened... after that for specific issues I would be called in to consult with... some dogs were referred out to a specialist and the clients loved the vet for it. The vet had not heard of the specialist... this was back in the day when specialist of any kind were rare. It was a great situation and helped the animals over health and life. 
Behavioral issues and training went to me. We had a great relationship and mutual respect. I think the difference is when you have a vet that isn't arrogant and doesn't think they know everything. You would be surprised at how little time if any is given in vet school for certain things... yet people don't know this ans vets end up giving advice on stuff they know nothing about. Most often the advice is from limited experience in the vet office setting.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 24, 2016)

I believe it.  I've tried many pet vets.  Exactly one of them knew how  act around my dogs.  One of which is over excitable and the other is leery of strangers. I was told by two vets that  I needed to muzzle my dog so he  wouldn't bite ME while I held him still for his shots. One vet and one tech were smart enough to come in the room,  hold their hand out for him to smell and ignore him while he  did so.  The rest would just come in and grab him and wonder why he seemed uncomfortable...  BTW he was fine with those two.  Unfortunately they've both moved elsewhere..   Grr.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 24, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Either there was a misunderstanding or your vet needs to go back to school.



He seemed pretty clear that that was the case...


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> He seemed pretty clear that that was the case...



Sounds like the moron that tried to say my 19 week old pup had pyo.


----------



## Green Acres Farm (Dec 24, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Sounds like the moron that tried to say my 19 week old pup had pyo.


The vet I was talking about recently retired. 

Pyo?

Our (different) livestock vet tech wants me to deworm my goats with Cydectin every 4-6 weeks. I said, "Won't that lead to parasite resistance?" And she said she's been doing this for 30 years.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 27, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> The vet I was talking about recently retired.
> 
> Pyo?
> 
> Our (different) livestock vet tech wants me to deworm my goats with Cydectin every 4-6 weeks. I said, "Won't that lead to parasite resistance?" And she said she's been doing this for 30 years.



Then they should know how bad that schedule is for parasite resistance. They just had a conference on it for pig farmers up here back in August where MSU was trying to get the old timey pig farmers to understand that  some of their practices were hurting more then helping their pigs. Most larger scale pig farmers up here have a strict schedule of worming with ivermectin every 12 weeks. It's pretty much no longer effective.

We also have a lot of farmers who use ivermectin for heartwormer in their livestock dogs...which is fine at the right dose but they use the same dosing as they do for their other livestock. So 1cc per 100lbs or 0.5cc per 100lbs or whatever it is per their main critters which is way way more then a dog needs for heartworm "prevention" let alone heartworm treatment. We treat our dogs with ivermectin for heartworm on July 1st and again on October 1 and thats it, the dose we use for our little dogs is 1 drop and for our big dogs we use 0.3cc and that is of 0.08% sheep drench ivermectin not the full strength stuff.


----------

