# does anyone take the kits from the doe??



## xotatiannaxo (Feb 27, 2011)

i was reading that some people do that. and i was wondering if anyone on here did it and how does it work? is that safe? does the doe ever reject the kits after wards?  i just SOOOO tired of seeing dead babbies.... we have had three litters who all died, mainly b.c the moms are dumb and sit on them or .... chew them up? not sure, or had them on the wire instead of the nesting box... so should i do this untill they learn how to be good moms? i just want to do things right and have live litters...


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## rabbitman (Feb 27, 2011)

If the mother rabbit is very ill, dead, or exhibiting aggression towards her babies, you may have to remove them and feed them without her help. Before you take on this formidable task, consider the following:

Did the babies get any mother's milk? If not, you'll have to provide the babies with a special, immunoglobin-rich substance called colostrum. For the first few days of lactation, a mother mammal produces colostrum, which contains antibodies that help destroy foreign bacteria. Without a colostrum "starter", the babies have a lower chance of survival.
If the babies really are orphans or have been abandoned by their mother, here's a protocol that's been successful for us. 

1. Keep the babies in a warm (about 75o - 78o Farenheit), quiet place in a nest similar to the one described above. (Bunny fur is the best lining, but clean cotton wadding will do as a substitute. Just be sure the babies do not get tangled in it.) DO NOT use an electric heating pad. Two or more babies usually are able to snuggle and keep each other warm if they have a good, padded nest. If there's only one baby, a warm water bottle wrapped in a soft towel can provide an excellent artificial heat source, but be sure the baby can crawl away from the bottle if it feels too warm. 

2. The nest box should be at ground level, in a room where small children and pets are not allowed (at least until the babies are eating solid food and out of the nest). For the first few days, keep the room relatively dimly lit and quiet.

Feeding the Babies
Formula and feeding supplies
You will need: 
plastic sterilizing steam bag (available at most pharmacies, these are used by women to disinfect breast pumps and other nursing materials) 
very small nursing nipples
There are many different types, and unfortunately few pet supply stores carry the smallest nipples that are best for baby rabbits. If your local pet supply store doesn't carry nipples suitable for baby squirrels and rabbits, then the ones for kittens are the next best thing. 
nursing bottle or syringes 
The type of bottle or syringe you buy will depend on the nipples available in your store. They usually are paired. A variety of feeding supplies are available online from The Squirrel Store. Order them while you use the kitten supplies locally available, and you'll have better nipples and syringes in a few days.
Formula recipe
fresh, whole goat milk - 1/2 cup 
KMR (Kitten Milk Replacer by PetAg) - 1/2 cup 
lyophilized (freeze dried) colostrum - contents of 10 capsules, or 1-1.5 Tablespoons
This is available at most high-quality health food stores, either in bulk powder form, or in capsules. It's expensive, but will give the babies their best head start.
heavy cream - 3 cc (a cc is the same as one ml, or milliliter), equal to about 1/2 teaspoon

Mix ingredients together in a lidded container, and shake very well until colostrum is dissolved. It's best to mix this a few hours in advance so that the colostrum has time to soften and suspend easily.
Heat the formula to about 105o Farenheit (you can gauge this with a common, quick-read plastic rectal thermometer (unused, or fully sterilized!) from any pharmacy.) and keep it warm in a water bath while you feed the babies. They are generally more eager to accept warm formula.


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Feeding Procedure
The most important thing to avoid is aspiration (inhalation) of formula by the babies. The smallest drop of formula in the lungs can cause fatal pneumonia within a few hours. 

1. Steam disinfect all syringes, bottles, and nipples as per instructions on the disinfecting bag. 
2. Sit or lie on the floor to feed the bunnies, using a towel as a lap cushion for the baby being fed. Baby rabbits are wiggly, and unpredictable. They jump suddenly and unexpectedly, and you must be on the floor so that they don't hurl themselves off a chair or table and injure themselves. A drop of only one or two feet can be fatal, especially if the baby has a stomach full of milk.

3. Hold the baby horizontal in one hand, and the bottle/syringe in the other. If you wrap the bottle in a washcloth or cotton pad, allowing a fold to drape over your hand with the nipple protruding, the baby will be able to "paddle" with his front feet, as he would his own mother's breast.

4. Babies often resist feeding at first, and you must overcome the temptation to force feed. If the baby spits out the nipple, then simply wet the baby's lips with a drop of warm formula so he'll lick it off. Once he's swallowed that, repeat the procedure over and over. Be persistent and gentle. If you can keep him hydrated and fed--even against his will--for a few feedings, more often than not, the baby will start to lap or sip at the drops you provide, though he may not do this on the first feeding. (If you're lucky, the baby will quickly learn the Turbo Sucktm : this can empty 15 cc's of formula in as little as 9 seconds!) 
5. DO NOT SQUEEZE TOO MUCH FORMULA INTO THE BABY'S MOUTH! It's better to err on the side of caution than to have the baby inhale milk!

6. Baby rabbits may lose the suckling reflex in only a day or two. If the baby grabs the nipple and begins suckling, allow him to do so without adding any pressure yourself. DO NOT squeeze the nursing bottle or put pressure on the syringe plunger. The baby should be able to suckle with enough strength to empty the bottle or syringe (as long as the plunger is adequately lubricated in advance with a bit of pediatric simethicone suspension) without any help from you. If you provide extra force, the baby may accidentally aspirate formula that's coming in too fast! 

7. If the babies do not suckle, it's not a major problem. Most will learn to lap/sip from the tip of the nipple, and this is actually safer, in terms of reducing the risk of aspiration. Try to hold the nipple sideways or downpointed, relative to the mouth, to further reduce the risk of aspiration.

8. IN CASE OF ACCIDENTAL ASPIRATION. We hope this doesn't happen, but if the baby does aspirate formula, it can completely block the airway and cause the baby to pass out. This does not have to be a death sentence, but the following "Bunny Heimlich" maneuver is the only hope of saving the little one. And it's scary.

hold the baby very firmly between your palms, one on each side of the rabbit 
stabilizing the back and neck firmly so they do not move at all, raise the baby above your head, so his nose is pointing skywards. 
with a firm, downward motion (not too fast!), swing the baby downwards towards your feet, (being very careful not to come too close to the floor!) 
repeat the procedure two or three times, as necessary. The weight of the baby's internal organs pressing against the diaphragm when you swing downwards ususally provides enough pressure to expel air from the lungs, as well as the drop of milk blocking the airway. 
Once you feel the baby begin to move, STOP THE MANEUVER IMMEDIATELY. 
Consult with your veterinarian about whether or not to place the baby on prophylactic antibiotics to prevent aspiration pneumonia.
9. Until they open their eyes (at about the age of 10-12 days), handle the babies as little as possible when you're not feeding/grooming

I found this on a website called http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/orphan.html


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## DianeS (Feb 27, 2011)

Bunnylady, another poster here, removes the nestbox containing the kits and keeps it in the house. Then every day she returns the nestbox to the mom so she can nurse the kits for a few minutes. 

The thing is, removing them after a successful birth doesn't prevent things like the doe having them on the wire. You do have to have them already alive before you can remove them. And with mom or not, they don't have much chance if they've been chewed already or not warmed up properly, etc. So if the damage is being done between birth and you finding them the first time, then removing them isn't likely to help anything.

Dead litters are lousy.


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## hoodat (Feb 28, 2011)

DianeS said:
			
		

> Bunnylady, another poster here, removes the nestbox containing the kits and keeps it in the house. Then every day she returns the nestbox to the mom so she can nurse the kits for a few minutes.
> 
> The thing is, removing them after a successful birth doesn't prevent things like the doe having them on the wire. You do have to have them already alive before you can remove them. And with mom or not, they don't have much chance if they've been chewed already or not warmed up properly, etc. So if the damage is being done between birth and you finding them the first time, then removing them isn't likely to help anything.
> 
> Dead litters are lousy.


Moving the entire nest box instead of the individual kits sounds like a good idea. It disturbs things much less. Rabbits don't spend a lot of time nursing. Their milk is so high in fats that a couple minutes per day is all the nursing the kits need.
Spending time with does keeping them tame and teaching them to accept you is also a good idea. The more friendly your does are with you the less they will resent your "interference".


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## xotatiannaxo (Feb 28, 2011)

hoodat said:
			
		

> DianeS said:
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thank you both! and im sorry i was SUPER clear on the question, i did mean returning them to her so she could nurse! 

i dont want to take them from her if it seems shes doing a good job.  but i dont want them to die from cold or the mom end up killing them.  so im not sure what to do... i guess after they come judge the mom and her mother skills...  and we do mess with them a lot.  ive got two kids who want to be in there all day petting them. so they are pretty friendly, expect for the buck who is kind of a jerk.... Thank you guys so much! im sorry for the million questions!  this was going to be my husbands thing but i love the rabbits!  and i felt like he was just throwing them some feed and hoping for the best.... so.... i got involded! wrote EVERYTHING down, and hopefully we will figure this out


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## tortoise (Feb 28, 2011)

I have kits due the end of this week.  I'm going to kitnap these because it is so cold.  I hope I get it right so I don't lose this litter.


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## chinbunny1 (Mar 3, 2011)

I take the kits to the doe twice a day. I put a little feed, grain, r calf manna in the nest, behind the babies to encourage the doe to feed them. It won't prevent them from being born on the wire. It will prevent the doe from eating the bedding, and doing dumb things to the kits to kill them.


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## xotatiannaxo (Mar 3, 2011)

chinbunny1 said:
			
		

> I take the kits to the doe twice a day. I put a little feed, grain, r calf manna in the nest, behind the babies to encourage the doe to feed them. It won't prevent them from being born on the wire. It will prevent the doe from eating the bedding, and doing dumb things to the kits to kill them.


THANK YOU! i will deff do that!  my does all seem really dumb when it comes to their kits! i hope it works and we dont lose any more!


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## chinbunny1 (Mar 3, 2011)

xotatiannaxo said:
			
		

> chinbunny1 said:
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Your welcome. rabbits do dumb things to their babies. I take them out twice a day till they are between ten-15 days old. My next boxes have a low front on them. So I put a hand towel over the lower part to prevent them from climbing out to go explore. I take them out once early in the morning, and once at night. 

I have had does kicke them out of thebox, eat all the bedding, pee on them, or the babies would pee all over themselves, then they'd freeze and die. Bringing them inside solved those problems.


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## mnmommy (Mar 3, 2011)

when the temps are really cold I remove the kits and bring them in. I take the whole box in and bring them out to mom to nurse once a day. I never have had an issue with moms getting mad or babies not getting fed.


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## TheSheepGirl (Mar 3, 2011)

A doe that pees all over her babies or chews them up, etc. is not a healthy doe most of the time. A lack of vitamin D can cause her to do these things. If the feed is not adequate it can cause them to kill their babies.

Maiden does will often have problems with thier litters. She may do better the second time.

My does are given two chances. If she does the same thing twice, then she is culled out of the herd. Most of the time sold to a pet home. Not all rabbits do this. Most are good mothers and care for their babies correctly. 

Mothering ability is hereditary. If a doe is a bad mother, then her children will be as well. It is best to have a herd of good mothers. It makes it funner and easier in the long run. 

I have not had to pull a litter in quite a while since I started culling for mothering ability. It is a part of my herd managenent. All of my does are wonderful mothers and their children are as well.

Cold weather should not be your reason for pulling a litter. As long as the mother has pulled enough hair the baies will stay perfectly warm.


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## tortoise (Mar 4, 2011)

tortoise said:
			
		

> I have kits due the end of this week.  I'm going to kitnap these because it is so cold.  I hope I get it right so I don't lose this litter.


Update (sorry to hijack, I didn't want to start a thread).  My doe ate her kits.  (Ewww!)

I think it was due to a food change.  She didn't like it and was dumping her food out.  Apparently a hungry momma will eat babies.  Her first litter she did right.  She is re-bred...  see what will happen next month.


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## mnmommy (Mar 4, 2011)

TheSheepGirl said:
			
		

> Cold weather should not be your reason for pulling a litter. As long as the mother has pulled enough hair the baies will stay perfectly warm.


When I say cold weather it doesn't mean a little chilly I'm talking -30 degrees outside I live in Minnesota and we get many extreme cold days here in the winter and if I want litters all year I have to pull them for their own safety even the wild rabbits are not having litters in these extreme temps they wait until spring as well.


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## tortoise (Mar 4, 2011)

mnmommy said:
			
		

> TheSheepGirl said:
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Agreed.  I gave it a try this winter.  I thought mum would be cold enough to sit in the box with her babies.  Nope.  Babies froze to death.  She made a very be fluffy angora wool nest

My rabbits are in an unheated shed.  When it was -30 outside it was about 10 degrees inside.  Still much too cold for kits to survive - even in a big wool nest.


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## dewey (Mar 4, 2011)

xotatiannaxo said:
			
		

> i dont want to take them from her if it seems shes doing a good job.  but i dont want them to die from cold or the mom end up killing them.  so im not sure what to do... i guess after they come judge the mom and her mother skills...  and we do mess with them a lot.  ive got two kids who want to be in there all day petting them. so they are pretty friendly, expect for the buck who is kind of a jerk.... Thank you guys so much! im sorry for the million questions!  this was going to be my husbands thing but i love the rabbits!  and i felt like he was just throwing them some feed and hoping for the best.... so.... i got involded! wrote EVERYTHING down, and hopefully we will figure this out


Even the best does can have issues if stressed, and there's a lot of environmental factors to consider very seriously for that...nutrition, housing, exposure, nest boxes, handling, nearby activity, noise, routine...things not under the does control that could cause them issues. 

They're given no less than 3 opportunities _and if their environment has been ideal_ yet there's continued issues, then they're replaced. 

I do fuss over mine in regards to their care and protection from extreme or sudden temp changes, etc., but generally I expect them to be able to remain with their kits, safely.


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## a7736100 (Mar 4, 2011)

I have the nestbox indoors inside a indoor cage.  I take the mother in once daily to feed the kits.


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