# Help!  What's going on with this goat?



## dianneS (Dec 19, 2010)

I have a pygmy doe, she was one year old in September.  The woman I got her from said she was a preemie and almost died at birth.  She's still really small but in good health over all.

Ever since I got her she has these occasional episodes where she will reel backward, scream and fall down!  Then she hops back up and its all over, she's back to normal!  I figured she had a choking episode and that was all.

Last winter she would have these episodes, not always falling down, but screaming and bawling and panting like she's dying!  Last year I brought her in the house, tried to warm her up, she only got upset even more from being inside.  I returned her to the barn and checked on her later to find her back to normal!

Now here we go again!  Its cold out and she's screaming, lying down, panting and shivering sometimes.  I don't know if she's just really cold?  I put a sweater on her last year on the coldest days because she was born in the fall, had a rough start and didn't have a very thick winter coat.  This year, she is all thick and fuzzy and I figured she'd be fine.  I hope she doesn't need another sweater!  How ridiculous.

I just went out to the barn.  Gave her a nice warm spot to lay down, put some baking soda out just in case.  Put water nearby and plenty of hay.  I'll go out and check on her later.  Hopefully, I'll find her back to normal... but what if I don't?  What the heck is going on with her?


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## elevan (Dec 19, 2010)

It sounds to me like a mild epileptic seizure...can goats have seizures?  I have a dog that has them and this sounds like what she does...


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## dianneS (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm starting to think it might be frequent episodes of bloat.  She really loves her hay and she fills up on it big time.  Her belly is big and full and I feel sort of a "bubble" on her left side.

I got pretty worried about her so I brought her in the house and put her in front of the fireplace to warm up.  (She's so sweet, I just wanted an excuse to bring her in the house!)  

I gave her some veterinary pepto bismol and a little baking soda mixed in water.  Within minutes she was walking around the kitchen, head butting my dogs!  Then she wandered into the victorian parlor and wanted to jump up on the setee,  then into the dining room and wanted to pull the lace table cloths off the table (not good since the table is fully set with antique china!)  then off to the living room to check out the cat and send him running for cover too!  

I think she's feeling better, and I'm glad I got her house visit on video for my husband to see!  I plopped her in the pasture with the other goats and she trotted off just fine.

I guess I need to help this little girl improve her gut flora and such so she doesn't have these episodes so often  _IF _that is what is wrong with her??   Its still so hard to tell and who knows how many times this has happend and I wasn't there to see it?  :/


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## ksalvagno (Dec 19, 2010)

So it only happens in the winter or cold? Maybe it would be worth it to keep some baking soda available all the time for her.


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## tiffanyh (Dec 19, 2010)

It really does sound like seizures....maybe you can get a video....


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## dianneS (Dec 19, 2010)

tiffanyh said:
			
		

> It really does sound like seizures....maybe you can get a video....


No, it really isn't a seizure at all, just like something is making her suddenly uncomfortable like a stabbing pain or something of that nature and taking her by surprise.


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## dianneS (Dec 19, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> So it only happens in the winter or cold? Maybe it would be worth it to keep some baking soda available all the time for her.


You know its funny, I usually have baking soda free-choice for the goats, but recently stopped supplying it because I read that its only necessary in cases of bloat and goats don't need it otherwise.  Maybe I'd better reconsider and keep that baking soda available all the time!


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## ksalvagno (Dec 19, 2010)

Usually you don't need to keep the baking soda out but apparently your little girl does need it if you haven't had any trouble until you took it away.


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## aggieterpkatie (Dec 19, 2010)

What kind of hay is it? Seems odd to me she'd bloat from hay.


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## elevan (Dec 19, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

> tiffanyh said:
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Mild seizures in animals can be surprisingly different from a human seizure.  My dog has them and they are seasonally based and can be tied to certain things that she eats as well.  Indeed almost all of her seizures happen in winter.  I wouldn't rule out the condition.


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## dianneS (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't know what could be wrong, but I heard her bawling inside the house and watched her follow the other goats out to the pasture.  By the time I got out there she was lying down, almost panting for quite a while like she was having trouble breathing.  She'd get up and walk around, but she'd just bawl like she was in terrible pain.  She seemed like she was shivering and she'd sort of hiccup every now and then.  She wasn't chewing her cud and didn't have any interest in food.  I just don't understand why this happens so often with just this one particular goat?

After warming her up and getting some pepto and baking soda in her, she's right back to normal?

Last year, I didn't think to do the pepto and baking soda, I just got her warm and she'd eventually snap out of it, stop the bawling and panting and start running around as if nothing happened!  I just don't get it?


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## elevan (Dec 19, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

> I don't know what could be wrong, but I heard her bawling inside the house and watched her follow the other goats out to the pasture.  By the time I got out there she was lying down, almost panting for quite a while like she was having trouble breathing.  She'd get up and walk around, but she'd just bawl like she was in terrible pain.  She seemed like she was shivering and she'd sort of hiccup every now and then.  She wasn't chewing her cud and didn't have any interest in food.  I just don't understand why this happens so often with just this one particular goat?
> 
> After warming her up and getting some pepto and baking soda in her, she's right back to normal?
> 
> Last year, I didn't think to do the pepto and baking soda, I just got her warm and she'd eventually snap out of it, stop the bawling and panting and start running around as if nothing happened!  I just don't get it?


Is she coming around quicker when you use the pepto/baking soda than when you just warmed her up?  How much quicker?

It still sounds like an animal seizure to me.


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

It just happened again!  I looked out the window and saw her screaming, but she was being chased by one of the wethers and he kept head butting her making her scream more!  By the time I got out to the barn she was laying down screaming.  I brought her right inside.

She squirmed and wriggled and threw a fit the whole way to the house, screaming and panting like she's dying.  Then she laid down in front of the fireplace and did what looked like a burp or a hiccup and she's coming around.  No screaming, and she looks like she'll be ready to go back outside soon.

We may have to make a trip to the vet.  This is too weird.


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## Calliopia (Dec 23, 2010)

Despite the fact that the goat is stressed.. grab your camera.  You are going to want a video to show the vet if possible.  


 .... Is there ANY chance that she's just got you really well trained and if she pitches a giant fit then she gets to come sit next to the warm stove?  I'm not doubting what you are seeing, just double checking. Goats lie.   



It almost sounds like heart burn.  Not sure if goats can get this but as a person I'll sometimes get a stabbing pain in my side and it's just indigestion.  Relaxing, changing position and some tums usually takes care of it.   If she's getting a really bad case then if she's like me it will be a horrible stabbing pain that makes you not want to move at all.  I have to move very slowly to change position or major owie.  Just another shot in the dark as to what it might be.


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## ()relics (Dec 23, 2010)

Did you say she was current on her cd/t vacinations?  If she was a small kid, and possibly bottle fed she may have dealt with FKS...Now it sounds like a tetnaus/enterotoxemia issue.  If she has never been vacinated you have your solution, but she is beyond the toxoid stage right now.  If she has had the vaccine and booster, I might try BoSe to stimulate her immune system and possibly the tetnaus anti-toxin.


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Did you say she was current on her cd/t vacinations?  If she was a small kid, and possibly bottle fed she may have dealt with FKS...Now it sounds like a tetnaus/enterotoxemia issue.  If she has never been vacinated you have your solution, but she is beyond the toxoid stage right now.  If she has had the vaccine and booster, I might try BoSe to stimulate her immune system and possibly the tetnaus anti-toxin.


She was supposedly vaccinated when I got her, but I'm not so sure I trust the woman I got her from.

I took her back to the barn, and just like last year, it seems as if the cold weather is bothering her the most.  I put her in a horse stall, bedded really thick with fresh straw.  As she got colder, she started crying more and more.  I took her temp and its only 96.8!  Although I don't really trust this digital thermometer, it usually reads low, but its not too far off.  I brought her in and put her in front of the fire and she's calming down again and looking better.

I'm calling the vet.


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## jodief100 (Dec 23, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

> She was supposedly vaccinated when I got her, but I'm not so sure I trust the woman I got her from.
> 
> I took her back to the barn, and just like last year, it seems as if the cold weather is bothering her the most.


I am a little confused, please clarify.  You said she was vaccinated when you got her, but it appears you have had her over a year.  Have you given her boosters since you got her and how long have you had her?  

I hope your vet can help because I really want her to get better.


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

We just got back from rendesvousing with the vet in a supermarket parking lot!  He was too far away to get out here to the farm to see her and he wasn't going to be in the office all day, so we met half way.

By the time the little girl was warmed up, for the second time, she was pretty much back to normal.

Vet said she has a touch of pneumonia.  He said this horrible cold and wind is probably just too much for her.  She's actually running a fever now, and he said when her temp was so low earlier, she was probably going into shock.  I don't know if she had a touch of pneumonia last year too and just managed to fight it off on her own?  

The vet said she is really, really tiny, even for a pygmy.  He thinks she must not have had a good start as a baby.  She was a preemie and almost died at birth is what I was told when I got her.  I insisted that her previous owner vaccinate her and de-worm her.  Most of my goats come from chemical free, holistic breeders, except this one.  We don't typically do boosters, just baby shots and then holistic methods from then on.  Usually works well, and I've had no problems with any other goats.  But this little girl must have been compromised from day one.

She's doing fine now.  She's in the basement and she's eating, pooping and peeing.  (of course she'd have to wait until she was inside to do that!)  I've got B-12, iron and something else to give her tonight.  Antibiotics daily and a few other injections, I've got quite a list of instructions.  But over all she looks good and should be just fine.


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## warthog (Dec 23, 2010)

Glad to hear she is doing better, keep us posted.


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## ()relics (Dec 23, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

> .....  Most of my goats come from chemical free, holistic breeders, except this one.  We don't typically do boosters, just baby shots and then holistic methods from then on.  Usually works well, and I've had no problems with any other goats.  But this little girl must have been compromised from day one.


...No holistic cure or prevention for tetanus or enterotoxemia...Without, you will have this sort of problem anytime one of your goats are stressed or extra-susceptible...Tetanus anti-toxin and BoSe asap...2-3 weeks start a cd/t program give the intial dose and then booster....JMO...but a B12 injection isn't too holistic....


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

The vet sent us home with the B-12 and the iron and a third syringe he didn't even tell me what was in it.  Everything I'm giving her right now is from the vet visit today.  Just following doctor's orders.  Never said B-12 was part of a holistic protocol.  She's getting antibiotics too.  Don't have all the details since the vet gave me nothing in writing, just what shots to give and when.  Since he treated her on the tailgate of his truck while we nearly got blown away by scorching winds I had to write down what syringes to give her one what days, subcutaneous or IM, etc, as soon as I got in the car before I forgot everything he had just told me.  Thank heaven the liquids in the syringes are different colors so I could keep them all sorted out since nothing has labels either.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

I do hope your little gal get's better soon.

I'm curious though, why wouldn't B-12 be considered holistic?  I would think vitamin therepy would be considered so, but perhaps I'm missing something?

My midwives will give B-12 shots during a pregnancy when an extra boost is needed during illnesses - and sublingual B-12 is recommended for many ailments when shots aren't possible.  

Perhaps livestock B-12 is different than what is used for humans?

Just curious - not debating at all.


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I do hope your little gal get's better soon.
> 
> I'm curious though, why wouldn't B-12 be considered holistic?  I would think vitamin therepy would be considered so, but perhaps I'm missing something?
> 
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I'm curious too.  But it wasn't my call on the B-12.  We're just following doctor's orders now.  I wish I had more details on exactly what I'm giving this girl?  I hate to call the vet and bug him since I do know what shots to give her and when, but I just don't know exactly what is in those syringes?  It was an interesting vet visit... in a parking lot, in the freezing wind.  The vet fit me in between other appointments, so I'm grateful.  Its been a long day.  I've still got Christmas shopping to do!!

Bernadette is looking good though, eating drinking and very content, as long as she's out of the cold weather.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

She looks great in her snazzy sweater!!!!!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Dec 23, 2010)

> I'm curious though, why wouldn't B-12 be considered holistic?  I would think vitamin therepy would be considered so, but perhaps I'm missing something?


you would think so. but i'm pretty sure this was just an editorial comment aimed at those of us who use more holistic methods. 

Our7Wonders - you should not be nervous about asking a question here

dianneS - thanks for telling us about your little one. i would have never guessed pneumonia. not sure how you could tell unless you listened to her lungs. 

and i think its great that your vet met you where he could. with the holiday rush i'm sure it was just lucky he could meet you at all.  did he leave you with an itemized receipt? it might show what the rest of the meds are. maybe you could call tomorrow morning and have it sent over for your records? (and i'm curious to see what else was provided.)

great job springing to action and getting her taken care of!
ps and that sweater is the beez kneez


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

No, I haven't gotten a bill yet.  I'll be getting one in the mail for sure!  Maybe I can call the office tomorrow and get the total so I'm not in for sticker shock, and when I have them on the phone perhaps they could tell me what meds I'm giving her.

I've used sublingual B-12 for years and I buy it from my accupuncturists shop.  I wouldn't know why it wouldn't be holistic?  Perhaps I'm missing something too?


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## ksalvagno (Dec 23, 2010)

Maybe it is the way the B-12 was made? Who knows. Glad your girl is doing better and that is just the cutest sweater!


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## elevan (Dec 23, 2010)

How old is your goat again?

2 things come to mind when I see your picture:
1 - She looks like she probably is a nigerian / pygmy cross
2 - She does indeed look small for a pygmy or nigerian for that matter

But I do have to say that she looks sharp in her sweater!

Never would have guessed the pneumonia.  Did you vet suggest yearly vaccinations since she had this problem last winter too?


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## dianneS (Dec 23, 2010)

elevan said:
			
		

> How old is your goat again?
> 
> 2 things come to mind when I see your picture:
> 1 - She looks like she probably is a nigerian / pygmy cross
> ...


You know I suspected that she might be nigi/pygmy cross.  The woman I got her from was so clueless, she had never even heard of a nigerian dwarf!  I'd be willing to bet she has no idea what breed the buck was that she used for breeding that year.

Vet never said anything about vaccinations? 

She does look sharp in that sweater!  Last year she wore one that had been my dogs when he was just an 8 pound puppy.  It was burgundy with white trim and a hood!


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## elevan (Dec 23, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

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If it were me I would probably do a yearly pneumonia vaccine on her since this is the second year with the same problem.


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## dianneS (Dec 24, 2010)

elevan said:
			
		

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I didn't know they had a pneumonia vaccine for goats!


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## Roll farms (Dec 24, 2010)

FWIW....personally...I think the CDT vaccine is more of a "must do" for goats than a pneumonia vaccine.  Pnuemonia can usually be treated if caught early.  Entero and Tetanus are fatal most of the time.

Not saying you shouldn't use a pnuemonia vaccine if you feel it's warranted, but if you are trying to keep vaccines to a minimum, I wouldn't 'not' do the CDT.  

There's no holistic cure and the deaths from either are slow and painful.
Nobody ever 'has a problem' w/ something...until they do.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Dec 24, 2010)

_Edited for Content_


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## ()relics (Dec 24, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

> Ever since I got her she has these occasional episodes where she will reel backward, scream and fall down!  Then she hops back up and its all over, she's back to normal!  I figured she had a choking episode and that was all.


....These are not symptoms of pnuemonia....Thare are consistent with a neuro disorder or disease, ie: entero/tetnaus/toxin...pnuemonia would be a high fever, congested lungs and wouldn't have the acute appearance of being here and gone...But rather the chronic look....Pnuemonia would stick around to finish the job.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 24, 2010)

The other thing she might have is mycoplasma. Then you would need Draxxin from the vet. Draxxin is a 7 day antibiotic that you would want to give 2 shots for a 14 day coverage. The dosage is 1 cc per 101 pounds.

Mycoplasma can look like pneumonia but doesn't quite fit all the symptoms. Also it is in debate as to if once a goat has mycoplasma they have it for life or not.


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## freemotion (Dec 24, 2010)

DianneS, I have nothing useful to add except a big  for you.  

Sorry you are going through this, I hope you can get it figured out and your little goatie can get better.  I know you are doing everything you can for the good of your pet.  She is so fortunate to have you.  

She is quite the fashionista in that little sweater, too!   Give her an extra hug and a smooch from me.  Don't you just want to bring her to bed with you?


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## ohiofarmgirl (Dec 24, 2010)

D - any update on your little pal?



Free - goat in the bed? now i've heard it all....
*slaps forehead and passes out*
;-)


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## freemotion (Dec 24, 2010)

I SOOOO wanted to bring Plummy into my bed when she was in the house all alone in a dog crate at night.  Good thing dh no longer works third shift!  He vetoed that idea, even with the diaper suspenders!    She is grown up now and probably preggers and when I smooch her cute little fuzzy face, I still want to bring her in....she was bottle fed, and still gazes into my eyes lovingly whenever I give her any food from my hand, the way she did when she got her bottles.  

Imagine my panic when I found her one morning after she'd vomited all night.  I did NOT need any snarkiness, but I DID need advice here!  So DianneS, here is another  for you and your little cutie-pie!


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## Roll farms (Dec 24, 2010)

_Edited for content._


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## elevan (Dec 24, 2010)

dianneS said:
			
		

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Yes, you can get it here:

http://hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/search.php?mode=search&page=1


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## elevan (Dec 24, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> FWIW....personally...I think the CDT vaccine is more of a "must do" for goats than a pneumonia vaccine.  Pnuemonia can usually be treated if caught early.  Entero and Tetanus are fatal most of the time.
> 
> Not saying you shouldn't use a pnuemonia vaccine if you feel it's warranted, but if you are trying to keep vaccines to a minimum, I wouldn't 'not' do the CDT.
> 
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I do tend to agree.  CDT is one of those vaccines that you really just can't skip out on.

I would do a preventative pneumonia vaccine every year prior to the cold weather that seems to bring this on.  But I wouldn't skip the CDT vaccine.

I don't know anything about holistic medicine.  Don't practice it nor do I plan to...so take my advice with a grain of salt and as that of a modern medicinal user.

Hope your girl is feeling much better.


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## dianneS (Dec 25, 2010)

Thanks for all the input, I do really appreciate the advice.

I'm not 100% sure that I'm convinced that her only problem is pneumonia.  Those weird symptoms she had a year ago are much too strange and I explained that to the vet.  He did vaccinate her for everything and his main concern is getting those lungs cleared up.

I guess all I can do is focus on what the vet has me treating her for at this time, then watch and wait and see if she has any of those strange recurring symptoms.  If so, back to the vet and we'll just go from there.

She's doing great BTW, she looks and acts perfectly normal now, but I'm still not going to subject her to this cold weather.  The vet really thinks the reason she has these episodes in the bitter cold is due to the pneumonia??  But I guess only time will tell.

I'm taking her out for brief little walks with the other goats to let her stretch her legs and get some fresh air.  She wears her sweater outdoors only, she doesn't need it inside anymore.  She doesn't want to leave the herd when its time to come inside and she's getting very restless indoors and wants more company than the dogs and cat!  I think that's a good sign!

I'll keep you posted and I do appreciate _all _the advice.  I'll just keep working with the vet untill we figure this all out.  I like this vet and I did give him a pretty thorough history of the symptoms we've been dealing with.  I think he'll take good care of us if and when we need him again.  I liked that he was consciensious enough to stagger the medications so as not to overwhelm her system.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 25, 2010)

Especially with it only happening in the cold, I would really talk to the vet about it being mycoplasma. 

Glad to hear the she is doing better.


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## dianneS (Dec 25, 2010)

Little goaties temp is normal!  She's really frisky and wants to get outside to play with her friends today!


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## adoptedbyachicken (Dec 25, 2010)

Great to hear she is doing better Dianne.  I think your on the right track to treat for what is currently diagnosed and look into/watch for other things once that's cleared up.  If she has something else that is chronic going on I imagine that could leave her susceptible to pneumonia just as it does for humans.

*For the rest of you the bickering between the holistic and the medicinal crowds has to stop.  The backhand snarky comments and digs will no longer be tolorated from either side.  Consider this the last warning, if you can't present your suggestions nicely without dissing what someone presented or their husbandry method expect to find yourself on vacation from posting on this forum.*


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## mully (Dec 26, 2010)

adoptedbyachicken said:
			
		

> Great to hear she is doing better Dianne.  I think your on the right track to treat for what is currently diagnosed and look into/watch for other things once that's cleared up.  If she has something else that is chronic going on I imagine that could leave her susceptible to pneumonia just as it does for humans.
> 
> *For the rest of you the bickering between the holistic and the medicinal crowds has to stop.  The backhand snarky comments and digs will no longer be tolorated from either side.  Consider this the last warning, if you can't present your suggestions nicely without dissing what someone presented or their husbandry method expect to find yourself on vacation from posting on this forum.*


Good ..glad to hear it, most on this site are so helpful but there are some that have a bite.


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## dianneS (Dec 28, 2010)

The little girl is out with the rest of the goats today!  She's been making short trips out each day, gradually increasing her time out in the cold.  She's been out for several hours recently and did just fine.  Today, she _ran _up the driveway and all the way up to the pasture gate!

Later I was mucking stalls and saw her running across the pasture with two other goats.  I rarely see her running.  She looks really good and seems really happy.

She gets one more shot of antibiotic tonight and another shot in a week or so.  I still don't know what I'm giving her since I haven't gotten that bill from the vet yet!

I think she may be out in the barn for good now.  I can finally clean up her pen in the basement, and she sure seems relieved to be out of the house.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 28, 2010)

Good, glad that she is getting better for you.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 28, 2010)

The road to recovery is always the best road to be on!!! Good luck with her!!  Shes probally happy to be with her goat friends again!!  

Her lungs must be clearin up nicly if shes running around!!!  

It would'nt hurt to talk to your vet about pneumonia vacination at all..especially if this is'ant your first run with it.  

Personally, I vacinate all my goaties annually.  I even have the vet give them thier rabbies vaccine.  But thats my personal choice.

However I do agree with the CD&T vaccine for certain.  It is soooooo easy for goats to get and sooo horribly painful for them to die from.  I believe thats a must in my herd IMO.

But its a personal opinion how one raises thier herds.  I know alot of people who practice holistic and medicinal care...and tragically enough we all have horror stories...thats just life on the farm.  So I really dont have an opinion if one is better than the other.  I just know I looked into both and made a personal choice for what I thought would be best for my herd and what I wanted from them.  I use them for dairy and meat...and I felt this management worked for the health of the goats and my family consuming thier goods they share with us.  

And personally we try to  incorporate both..and it seems to work beautifully.    If I know something natural will work well...I will use it...but If I know this infection is'ant gonna go away...I will get antibiotics and wont think twice.  I do whats best for my goaties on an individual basis. 

I think with anything we do in life!! Balance is best!!  But sometimes its the hardest part!!!   

Again, glad to hear shes getting better!!!  Hope you fiqure out what those little fits were about???  Maybe she was so full in the lungs and she had too much pressure when the rumen was full???  Something got her going?? Very strange reaction???


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## Ariel301 (Dec 29, 2010)

That's a weird one...never heard of one acting like that from pneumonia. But then, I did have a doe once who suddenly had neurological type sypmtoms, flipping over, rolling and unable to get on her feet, and she seemed to have gone blind...we thought she was poisoned, the vet was stumped by her behavior...and then it turned out to be just bloat. Some of them are strange, that particular goat was known for being a drama queen over everything so she just reacted to the pain in a weird way. 

This certainly does not sound like a tetanus or enterotoxemia case to me. Those kill a goat within a few days usually, and it sounds as though this goat has been acting oddly for much longer than that. I would suspect something digestive, if the pneumonia is not the cause of the weird behavior. I would agree with those pushing you to vaccinate her though. We do a lot of natural/alternative/holistic treatments here as well, but there is NOTHING of that nature that will cure tetanus, and even with regular medicine there's a high chance of death, the best plan is to prevent it in the first place. We lost our favorite doeling a few weeks ago to tetanus, she was the only one in the herd who had not been vaccinated, and it was horrible sitting helplessly by her side while she convulsed and screamed in pain for hours before dying. You don't want to go through that. Vaccinate all animals with CD/T annually and then you can still do the holistic thing otherwise. I hope your girl gets to feeling better soon!


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