# Elderly Ram (UPDATE)



## Queen Mum (Oct 14, 2011)

I have a very elderly ram.  He's all by himself in a big herd of goats.   Any suggestions from you sheeple  (sheep people) about what I can give him to keep him happy and well fed.   He doesn't like hay and the grass is about gone right now because we have a drought.   He likes sweet feed, but it seems I should be giving him some supplemental feed.   Can I give him alfalfa and how much?    Apples, oranges, veg scraps?  I know he loves bananas.  Other feed supplements?   

Also he has NO wool left except his undercoat.  Does he need vitamins and supplements?   

Sara
Queen Mum


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## SheepGirl (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm confused as to what you mean that he has no wool left except his undercoat...what breed is he? Can you post a picture?

What kind of hay are you feeding? Alfalfa is good, but it is better to just give rams just plain old grass hay. You don't need to give him any sweet feed. Figure out how much he weighs and then give him about 2% of his body weight in hay. (If he weighs 200 lbs, give him 4 lbs of hay.)


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## Queen Mum (Oct 15, 2011)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> I'm confused as to what you mean that he has no wool left except his undercoat...what breed is he? Can you post a picture?
> 
> What kind of hay are you feeding? Alfalfa is good, but it is better to just give rams just plain old grass hay. You don't need to give him any sweet feed. Figure out how much he weighs and then give him about 2% of his body weight in hay. (If he weighs 200 lbs, give him 4 lbs of hay.)


Here is a picture.







He has grass hay.  I was thinking I should ADD alfalfa to bring his weight up.   He's not getting any alfalfa now.   He weighs about 100 pounds.     He just recovered from pneumonia and lost a TON of weight but he is very old, about 13, I think.  As you can see from the picture his wool is about gone.    

He's a love and deserves a great retirement.  Also, despite 10 days of antibiotics, he constantly has a runny nose.

Any suggestions?

Sara
Queen Mum


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## SheepGirl (Oct 15, 2011)

He looks like an American Blackbelly, which is a hair breed. So for him to look like (wool-wise) that is normal. If he has a runny nose, I'm thinking he's got nasal bots.

Sheep 201 states:


> The sheep bot fly is a fuzzy, yellowish-gray or brown fly that deposits tiny larvae on the muzzles or nostrils of sheep. The larvae migrate into the nostrils and head sinuses and develop. A snotty nose is the most common symptom. Animals will hold their heads down or in a corner to escape the flies. Weight reductions of up to 4 percent have been attributed to bot infestations in some studies. The highest bot levels are seen in November and December. A systemic insecticide formulation containing ivermectin is effective against larval stages of the nasal bot.


About his weight...I would continue giving him grass hay, and because he has a very low body condition score, I would give him about a 1/2 lb per day of sweet feed in addition to 2 lbs of grass hay. The sweet feed is extra feed, since the hay counts towards his entire ration, so it will help get his weight up. Also make sure you have sheep-specific loose minerals available to him and make sure there is plenty of fresh water.


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## Ms. Research (Oct 15, 2011)

Hoping you find a way to make this " love" have a great retirement.   

Feel the same way about those "loves" too.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 15, 2011)

Nasal bots,  who knew?   That makes sense.  I hope that is the problem.  I would love to clear up whatever is making this old fella so miserable.   And thanks for the breed info.   I'll get on it right away to learn more.  

Sara


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## goodhors (Oct 15, 2011)

You may want to check his teeth.  If his teeth are bad, worn to nothing, then the best feed is 
not going to improve him much.  And much as you like him, it may be time to let him go.

You can try going to a pelleted feed, adding water, see if he can eat and gain condition on 
that softer diet.  Wet beet pulp (sold as pellets or shredded) when used as part of the forage needs
in grazing animals seems to make almost every animal improve to a point.  Perhaps a mix 
of wet beet pulp and wet alfalfa pellets, or wetted hay cubes, would allow him to get more 
nutrition into him.  

I used the wet beet pulp and wetted hay cubes for some elderly horses
with lost teeth, and they held their weight well, had a nice shine to them.  Grazing animals 
NEED to have roughage going thru their digestive system to keep it working correctly.  The
addition of the wet hay cubes to diet helped a lot, horses improved after adding them to the meals.

Check his teeth first, see what you are dealing with there.  Check the fronts and molars, to 
see if he can actually bite off and chew hay, to make small enough pieces to digest.  If elderly, 
he may be down to stumps, not much to chew with, so the wet feeds will not choke him. 

I use hot water to wet the feed things.  Hot softens faster, plus the animals seem to like warm feed,
so they eat it better.  I put the hot water in an insulated drink cooler, put in the feed things, leave
the lid on for about an hour or until mushy.  Doesn't matter if barn is warm or cold, the cooler
keeps the water warm and softens the feed stuff for you.  Squeeze the beet pellets with your 
hand, should be no lumps when ready to eat.  Pellets do soak up a lot of water, shreds usually
get mushy faster, but can cost more to purchase.  Some animals can take a little time to get 
used to eating wet beet pulp, so start with tiny amounts if they are not enthused and mix with 
a bit of grain they like. 

You need to kind of experiment with amounts of water in the mix, each kind of dried item, 
pellet feed, pelleted beet pulp, hay cubes, will need a different amount of water
to get to the mushy stage.  Some animal like the feed wet but not runny.  Others don't care how 
runny it is, just love the flavor!

After the teeth check, you will know what you have to work with, to go to the extra measures
of feeding if needed.  It can be work, you have to set stuff to soak way before feeding, so it
gets soft and edible.  If animal can't chew, the stuff is softened enough to just swallow without
choking him.  Hay cubes wetted, break apart, with fibers very short, easier to swallow.  Some 
of those complete diet feeds, made mushy with water, will contain the needed grains and 
vitamins, while the wet beet pulp and wetted hay cubes give the roughage needed to help him
bulk up a bit more with a working digestive system.

Good luck with him.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 15, 2011)

He eats dried hay cubes if I break them up.  I mash them with a hammer.  He likes sweet feed and seems to have no trouble chewing them but just doesn't seem enthused about dry hay.  He does have teeth in the front.  (Not down to nubbins yet.)  He loves grass, but with the drought, we just don't have any on the ground right now that he can eat.  There are patches of it, here and there, but it's hard to take him out, because he doesn't lead well.  He also eats cactus.  I'm definitely going to add beet pulp and some of the other things to his feed to bulk him up a bit.  

He's a survivor.  He's never been really bulky.  (He came to us as a "reject".)  But he's got such a hearty soul and is a real sweetheart.  He can't mix with the goats anymore because he can't compete with the younger bucks for feed.  So we have him with a couple does for company.  

Thank you so much for the help.   I'll keep you all posted.  We have reserved a "retirement center" for our older animals in one corner of our ranch.  I'm kind of taking over the husbandry.  But it's a learning experience.

Sara


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 16, 2011)

I agree with goodhors.  I was going to suggest he may not be able to chew hay well enough to digest it.  His front teeth don't really help much for that, since the molars do all the chewing.  I'd recommend getting a pelleted feed and wetting it, and also give him lots of soaked alfalfa pellets or cubes.  It needs to be really easy for him to eat.  goodhors had some great tips.


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## SheepGirl (Oct 16, 2011)

I didn't even think about the teeth, goodhors. That's a very good point.

But since he's about 13, he's more than likely a gummer and doesn't have any teeth. Wet feeding will hopefully make it easier for him to eat. Unfortunately he will have a harder time eating roughage since you can't wet feed it...and sheep need forage at least four inches long in order to keep their rumens working properly.


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## zzGypsy (Oct 16, 2011)

we had a ram who made it to 16, so I've got a little experience in elderly sheep.
teeth are definitely an issue - you can run your finger inside his cheek back along his molars to see what he's got to chew his food with... if they're sharp, or missing, or you feel lumps or sores he may have abcesses or spots where the teeth cut the inside of his mouth.  a vet can help you address this.

if he's got a tooth problem, he won't or can't chew what he eats and can't get much nutrition from it.  hay cubes help, but if he really has no teeth soaked pellets may be better because they're competely pre-chewed.

on our old man ButtHead (yeah, I know, but he earned it...) we fed this:

soaked alfalfa/grass hay pellets (these are 50% alfalfa) with a small amount of steamed oats, a little molasses (because he likes it), and a quarter cup of corn oil or 1/2 cup of rice bran.  the alfalfa gives protien for him to build muscle with, the corn oil or rice bran ups the calorie count.  sometimes the problem is they don't have enough appetite to eat all the feed they need to rebuild.  adding fat calories can help up their calorie intake without risking the bloat issues that can occur if you increase their sugar intake.

if he's got treats he likes, things like carrots, add some of those grated up too.

we set up pellets to soak at the previous feeding - so in the morning we filled a bucket with pellets and water for the evening feed, etc.

other things we did: 
probiotic powder to make sure his gut flora was up to snuff.
B vitamin shots can help stimulate appetite (talk to your vet about dosing)
whatever weeds we had that he found tasty (he particularly liked mallow and bamboo)
SweetLix protein block for sheep - this is a protien, mineral, sweet pressed block they can free feed on to suplement what they need.  get the sheep block, the goat block is too high in copper. if he's got front teeth he'll be able to eat this.  your goats will make short work of this as well, so you'll either need to separate him or plan on buying these regularly.  we do keep these for our goats as well.
white salt block available free choice.
offer electrolyte water and see if he's interested.
offer water with a little molasses and see if he's interested.  small amounts of molasses won't hurt, and if they like it, it can encourage appetite.  large amounts aren't good as they can cause bloat (as with any sweet feed.)  molasses has minerals in it as well, so that's good.
if it's hot, cool water is good, but if he's got tooth problems, tepid water may be more comfortable for him to drink.

sometimes a few doses of sheep drench will help get them feeling good enough to eat.
sometimes a twice daily shot of banamine will help supress any pain they have so they feel good enough to eat.  it's hard on their liver, so it can't be used long term, but in an older guy, giving them a few days pain-free can perk them up enough to start on recovery.

since he's been sick and is under weight, keep an eye on his wool growth, he may not put on the wool he should for winter.  if he doesn't put on some wool for the cold season, you may want to blanket him at night.  sheep are remarkably cold-tollerant, but they are designed to have winter wool so that you'll have to make a jugement call on.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 16, 2011)

Wow,  that's great!  Thanks.  I'll start right away!  It sure pays to ask.

Sara
Queen Mum


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## Queen Mum (Nov 8, 2011)

Remember this guy...
*Rambo*







Here he is now.   






Ten days on Penicillin.
B vitamins
Iron
Banamine for Arthritis
Extra High Quality Hay
Lots of treats - carrots, bananas, vegetables, a day or two of grazing when we could find it.
extra alfalfa, 
minerals, 
probiotics
Convinced the landlord to STOP FEEDING sweet feed with copper
Cleaned his teeth,  (That was a challenge.) 
Wormed him.
Ivermectin for Nasal bots  (took some convincing to get the landlord AND the vet to consider that as a possibility)  I had to actually catch a couple bot flies to show them that YES we do have bot flies here.)  AND I irrigated his sinuses for a week.  (boy he did NOT like that, but you  should have seen what came out!) 

Cleaned up ALL the poo out of his paddock and stopped feeding him on the ground.


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## SheepGirl (Nov 8, 2011)

He looks great. Good job!


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## bonbean01 (Nov 8, 2011)

WOW!!!!  What a difference!!!  You did great


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## aggieterpkatie (Nov 8, 2011)

wow, huge improvement!  He looks 100 times better. Great job!


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## Queen Mum (Nov 8, 2011)

He needs to gain a LOT more weight but I think he can do it.  I'm working on it.   I was amazed when I looked at his latest picture (taken today) and compared it to the first ones just a couple weeks ago.  I think (am pretty convinced,) that years of getting sweet feed and protein blocks meant for cattle and goats, contributed to his problem.  Just TOO much copper.  It says right on the package.  DO NOT FEED TO SHEEP!  My landlord said "But I've been giving it too him for YEARS! He's always been thin."       I hope, he gets the point now.


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## zzGypsy (Nov 8, 2011)

WOW! excellent job!  he's looking quite fabulous, relatively speaking!
heroic effort, you get an A+ !

it's possible to keep elderly sheep healthy - I had a retired herd ram that went to maybe 16 (we were never quite sure of his age) - so I know it can be done.  great job!


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## goodhors (Nov 8, 2011)

WOW, give yourself a HUGE pat on the back!!  What a great change in
his condition!  And in such a relatively short time.  Just amazing what 
some personal attention, and all of us cheering you on, can do!

I am sure that it wasn't easy, especially facing down the Vet in talking
"weird theory of problem cause" with the nasal bots, but you did it and 
treatment helped.

Dealing with the Landlord and old time theories, lazy care taking in only
buying one kind of feed for various animals must be frustrating.  Have you
shown him the two photos?  He may not have actually NOTICED the 
improvements because he sees the ram daily.  Having photos to compare
has to make him start believing other methods ARE good ideas.

I am really glad that things have come together for you and the old boy.
We want to see another photo in a couple weeks!!


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## Queen Mum (Nov 8, 2011)

I showed the landlord the pictures and told him great job, because he finally came around to changing his feed.  (I haven't told him that I've been feeding him all the other stuff.)  But will eventually work on getting him to come around.  I did finally convince him to give him better hay and more of it, though.   He loves the old ram and was eventually willing to see what was best for him.  He's not lazy about the care, just stubborn.  Ultimately he's relieved that the old fella is better and really wants him to be a happy sheep.


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## goodhors (Nov 9, 2011)

I meant lazy in only having to deal with one feed.  Not having to mess with 
"this is horse feed, next trip is cow feed, and after that is sheep feed.  I will 
do the chickens last with this other feed.  And sheep needs a little of this and
some of that, while the horses need the OTHER stuff____"  Guys HATE having 
to deal with the picky details of mixing extras to take care of the  body condition 
issue.  

And while landowner is a nice guy, resistance to changes in feed is probably because
it is JUST EASIER to use only one kind for everything.  Same with various hays.
He may feed animals plenty, but not hay they NEED for best nutrition.  Other 
animals may do fine with hay A, but other animals need hay B for growth or because
hay A is not working for them.

I worked in a supply warehouse and while there it changed from a "guy job" 
to having almost all women inside while the guys did deliveries.  Males were
as a group, totally unwilling to do the details like counting out nuts and bolt, 
measuring stuff to cut ACCURATELY, charging out the correct quantity of items
so it would get reordered.  Women moved into those detail oriented, bean-counter
postions because they WOULD go count items in question EVERY time it 
was needed, measure to find an accurate count on other items that needed
tracking.  Just not for many guys, "too hard, unneeded" in their opinion.

And that is why I said he is lazy, doing things HIS way doesn't let him 
learn better methods, so he feels justified staying in his rut.


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## redtailgal (Nov 9, 2011)

yeah, would you come splain all that guy/gal mentality to my hubby?

He gets so annoyed with my attention to detail "hang up"


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## Queen Mum (Nov 9, 2011)

goodhors said:
			
		

> I meant lazy in only having to deal with one feed.  Not having to mess with
> "this is horse feed, next trip is cow feed, and after that is sheep feed.  I will
> do the chickens last with this other feed.  And sheep needs a little of this and
> some of that, while the horses need the OTHER stuff____"  Guys HATE having
> ...


Doing things HIS way is the Order of the day around here all right!  OYE VEY!  

If I don't do things HIS way, I catch holy heck!   What is it with men and doing things THEIR way!   





> I've done it that way for years!


It makes me want to SCREAM!

Animals suffer from that kind of thinking.   They need things done differently when things don't work out one way.   I have spent my life learning that you need to adjust!   Constantly change your thinking to fine tune.  Go with the flow!  Rigidity is death to a farmer.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Nov 9, 2011)

You should be very proud.  He looks great.


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## neener92 (Nov 9, 2011)

goodhors said:
			
		

> I meant lazy in only having to deal with one feed.  Not having to mess with
> "this is horse feed, next trip is cow feed, and after that is sheep feed.  I will
> do the chickens last with this other feed.  And sheep needs a little of this and
> some of that, while the horses need the OTHER stuff____"  Guys HATE having
> ...


That sounds like my dad!

He looks a lot better Queen Mum!


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## Ms. Research (Nov 10, 2011)

Queen Mum,  Good Job.  You can see it in his eyes from the first photo to the second how much he has come back to life and he looks very content in the second photo.

Outstanding!  Their eyes tell it all.


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## that's*satyrical (Nov 10, 2011)

Wow! He looks WAYYYYY better


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## Queen Mum (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks everyone.  I'll keep you posted.


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## Fluffy (Jan 9, 2012)

I realize this is sort of an older post... how's he doing? I love the before and after pics  What a great turnaround!

I wanted to suggest an "all stock" sweet feed for your landlord. They are formulated to be safe for numerous species - particularly by having copper levels that are safe for sheep and goats but adequate for horses as well. We feed an all stock sweet feed by Crossroad, it is labeled as a feed for maintenance cattle, horses, goats and sheep. The tag says to feed with hay or pasture but that's the same on pretty much all livestock feeds. I like it because we can feed it to our horses without worrying that the alpacas will get too much copper if they munch up the leftovers. I guess it makes sense that if all those species can thrive on the same quality hay there should be a formulated feed that works for everybody.  I wouldn't feed it to kids or lambs though (creep feeders!) and don't forget your mineral blocks


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## Queen Mum (Jan 9, 2012)

Thanks Fluffy.  I moved from that place about three weeks ago.  I came home one day from a five day trip and found out that about 9 goats had died from what looked to me to be exposure.  I felt they just didn't have enough body fat to keep them warm.    We had a big argument because they had stopped feeding the goats hay and I offered them mine which they refused!  They were just cutting down juniper bushes and giving them that to eat instead.   Then I suggested that their goats needed copper because they were getting fish tailed and copper tinged hair.   

They got mad at me and told me I knew nothing about goats and said copper was too expensive.  I had to move.  I couldn't take it any more.   I am hoping and praying they are doing the right thing by those animals.   I did what I could while I was there.   I hope Rambo is fine now.

I moved to a much better farm where the animals are healthy and happy and well fed.  I wake up every day and feel glad to see well cared for animals.


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