# Not sure if I'm worrying for no reason or not...



## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 6, 2011)

5 of the doelings are 10 weeks old and go out during the day now.  They are kept in a good sized pen when it is nice out and they go in their pen in the barn when it is cold or rainy, and at night.

We just did fecals on each of them Monday and found absolutely nothing.  We took stool samples to the vet yesterday to have them double check as I've never dound absolutely nothing in their samples before so I was worried I'd managed to somehow goof up something so simple that I've done so many times.  The vet found absolutely nothing in their fecal samples either.  

This morning, 2 of the doelings only drank half their bottles.  They get 2 cups, twice a day.  Tonight they both only drank around a 1/4 cup.  They have all the hay they can eat all day long, fresh water they drink plenty of, and mineral and baking soda, free choice.  I did notice they have been nibbling on their straw in the pen too.  

They show no signs of bloat.  This morning their temps were 101.8 and 103.3.  Tonight they are at 103.2 and 103.4.  They show no signs of bloat and no signs of anything being wrong.  No odd behavior beyond not wanting their bottles when typically nothing can get between them and their bottles.

Any ideas on what might be going on?


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## ksalvagno (Apr 6, 2011)

Did they get their vaccinations? Normally I wouldn't worry about that slight temp but I guess just keep watching them.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 6, 2011)

They all get a CD&T vaccination.  It's the only vaccination we give.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 6, 2011)

I would say since it is only one day and they are acting normal otherwise, see what tomorrow brings. I have had bottle babies not eat good for a day. Then the next day they are back to normal.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 6, 2011)

Thank you.

I'm hoping they bounce back to typical eating habits with no issues as of tomorrow and I was just being silly to worry.


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## elevan (Apr 6, 2011)

Ok, first let me say that I don't bottle feed...

You said they are 10 weeks old and they are munching on other stuff...could they just be filling up on the other stuff and starting to wean?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 6, 2011)

I suppose it is possible.  I've never had one wean itself or start to.  I typically start to wean them by 12 weeks old.  I've been lazy with these guys but thought we'd go down to one bottle a day over the course of next week and then ease off that last bottle over the course of the following week.  The other 3 that are this age are all still eagerly eating their bottles 2x a day.

The 5 in this group have been eating stuff since 4 weeks old, and quite well.  They started really nibbling good by 3 weeks old.

I split the babies into small groups so I'll be able to better tell what is going on with each.

It would be wonderful if they were simply just weaning themselves.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

Both doelings have a higher temp this morning 103.9 and 105 and are acting sluggish.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 7, 2011)

Sounds like it is time to give them some antibiotics.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 7, 2011)

Yup, antibiotics right away,  The changing spring weather, got them sick. I had one last weekend I had to treat.

He responded very quickly To just Penn G twice a day. I pretty much give 1cc regardless of the kids weight and size, until they are near 40lbs,then I go up to 1 1/2 cc.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah, that is what I was afraid of.  I'm not real sure which one to go with because I've no clue what the problem is to begin with.

I'll be watching their rumen activity as well in case we're going to need probios, vitamin B, etc.

Oh the joys of goats!


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## ksalvagno (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't have any advice on the antibiotic because I happen to have Exceed on hand and usually start with that.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

Haven't decide on antibiotics.

Right now we're working on bringing down the fevers and gave a shot of Vitamin B Complex along with Probios.  The one has a rumen still going, but the other's is getting sluggish.  

If they won't take electrolytes, I'll tube them.

There should be no reason either of them are sick (other than the fact that they are goats and like to keep us on our toes for giggles, I think).

We know we don't have internal or external parasites due to fecals just having been done and we do daily examinations for critters in the fur when they are babies.

No cuts or scrapes on either.  I even checked for bug bites in case it was simply a reaction they were having.


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## PJisaMom (Apr 7, 2011)

Sorry they are feeling icky.  

I would have to third and fourth the others on giving anti's, though... sounds like with the fever there is some sort of infection process going on... and treatment with anti's is the *last* thing I'd want to delay on... I had a 9 month old wether go down quickly with a fever and no other signs... guessing it was pneumonia due to significant changes in the weather, but no other real symptoms.  Started with PenG (on hand on Sunday morning) and got Nuflor the next day.  It took a WHILE to get him back into shape, but he's out there right now bullying everyone around.  

Just thinking out loud!  Hope you figure this out quickly!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

I don't give antibiotics for just any little thing but when they are babies, they are spiking a fever, their rumen is shutting down, and we've no clue what is going on, I will give antibiotics without hesitation.  My only problem is knowing which antibiotic to give.  Called the vet and she is out working cattle so no help there.

I have PenG, Nuflor, and Oxytetricyclin (sp?) on hand, I believe.  I just don't know which one to use considering we don't know what the problem is.  Oxy is out simply because they are on milk so can't really use that.  That narrows it to PenG and Nuflor.


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## Roll farms (Apr 7, 2011)

Me, I'd go w/ the Nuflor.  

Use a big needle (I know, I hate to on kids but it hurts less through a big needle than a little one).

My reasoning....If the Pen G isn't strong enough, you're going to have to end up using the Nuflor anyway, so why not start w/ it and not risk it wasting time by being less effective...?

Good luck!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

Thank you, Roll!  Nuflor wasn't even an option back when, so I'm still not thoroughly comfy with it so I wasn't sure.  I've used it for pneumonia and liked the results but wasn't sure if it is broad spectrum or not like Pen G.

Nuflor it is.  Thank you, again!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Yup, antibiotics right away,  The changing spring weather, got them sick. I had one last weekend I had to treat.
> 
> He responded very quickly To just Penn G twice a day. I pretty much give 1cc regardless of the kids weight and size, until they are near 40lbs,then I go up to 1 1/2 cc.


I JUST saw this.  I think I was posting when you posted it and mine went on to the 2nd page and yours was on the 1st page so I never saw it.  Sorry!  Thank you so much for that.  It is frustrating not knowing which to give.  

I suppose I need to get more familiar with my antibiotics and what to give when and for what.  I spend so much time trying to avoid having to use them that I guess I should spend some of that time learning more about them as well.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 7, 2011)

I think most people honestly try not to use antibiotics. But when an animal needs it, they need it. When you have seen a young animal die quickly for no apparent good reason other than starting with a temp and then went downhill from there, you are pretty fast to give antibiotics. I have seen alpaca crias go from a fever or a little sluggish to dead in less than a day.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 7, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have never used anything besides Pen G or Oxytetracyclene, and since oxy is out of the question with that young of a kid, I use Pen G, Have never had a problem with a kid not responding with it. 

but the first sign of being off feed and sluggish I treat, 2 shots the first day, no matter how late in the day they get the first one, but atleast 4 hours a part and then a shot at 7 am and 7 pm, the rest of the treatment cycle. I use way more than the Penn G label recommends. Using almost 10cc for an adult standard size doe, 5 on a younger yearlling, (80lbs to 100) and starting with 1 on a 10lb kid. 

I use Pen G on all kids nursing or younger, goats with enjuries, or scours, and I use oxytetracylcene on all adult goats with other issues like birthing  or respitory(sp?). 

But Roll is no doubt right, about the Nuflor being a stronger more affective antibiotic, so if you don't want to take a chance you should start with that.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I think most people honestly try not to use antibiotics. But when an animal needs it, they need it. When you have seen a young animal die quickly for no apparent good reason other than starting with a temp and then went downhill from there, you are pretty fast to give antibiotics. I have seen alpaca crias go from a fever or a little sluggish to dead in less than a day.


I think some people use it like candy and then wonder why it is not effective, but I think most on here do not.  I've been thrilled to find a lot of really good common sense on here and it's great!

I get a lot of flack over the fact that we run an organics feed store, feed our family organically as best possible, etc. yet we will use antibiotics when needed.  Most of our animals never need them, but when they do, I will use it as long as I know what and how is best for them.

The reason you gave of watching a young animal die quickly for no apparent reason is why I will use antibiotics when absolutely needed and give the CD&T shots to my goats.

It is my humble opinion that overuse is a real problem but so can underuse be.  We're blessed to have them as long as we use them wisely.  You all have been fantastic in helping advise on that.  Thank you.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

We gave 1cc of PenG to each doeling, 1 cc of Vitamin B Complex, and 5 units of Probios each.  They weigh just over 20lbs each (22 and 23)

If no significant response to the PenG by this evening, we're going to Nuflor.  Then tomorrow we'll go to once a day Nuflor for a total of 5 days.  My Daddy-in-law has the Nuflor right now or I'd have given it this morning.  I didn't realize he had it till I went to use it.:/

Thanks bunches yall.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 7, 2011)

Hopefully they will be feeling better soon. 

I know the big farms use it like candy but I think small farms like most on here really do try not to. I don't like antibiotics for myself or my animals unless needed. I can't even remember the last time I had to take antibiotics. I've just had enough experiences here that I learned to make quick decisions when it comes to young animals. It truly is amazing how fast they can go downhill and die, even when having meds on hand and getting the vet involved quick.

It is a shame how most people want antibiotics for just a sniffle. It really has created a problem, I think more so for the humans than the animals. But you can never leave out the factory farms that use it so they can overstock.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 7, 2011)

One of the girls, Lyda, is back to normal with her temp and activity level.  She had the lower temp of the 2 of them. 

The 2nd girl, Kashmere, is still running a 104+ fever but doing a lot better energy wise.  She had the higher temp so I'm assuming she is just going to take longer to get better.

The Lyda won't touch her bottle, but Kashmere drank half of hers.  They both continue to drink water from their bucket.

They both at a handful of grain earlier today and again tonight and they are both munching on hay.  That is encouraging.


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## Roll farms (Apr 8, 2011)

Great news!

Good for you for catching it early, too...


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 8, 2011)

For future reference: 

Did you end-up using Nuflor, or did you stay with Penn G, at 1cc twice a day?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 8, 2011)

We stuck with PennG since it was seeming to work.  

Both of their rumens seem to be going again, nice and strong, but watching them just in case.

The one with the lesser fever drank her whole bottle this morning.  The one with the higher fever drank half hers last night but none this morning.

We're hopeful this will be fine in the long run.

How many days would yall give PennG at 1cc 2x a day?


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## ksalvagno (Apr 8, 2011)

I would give it for a minimum of 7 days and probably go 10 days. You always want to go the full course time with antibiotics. 

Great that they are doing better!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 8, 2011)

I found 2 charts with doseage recommendations.  One said 5 days and another said 10 days so I wasn't sure.  10 seemed like a long time.  So I'm glad you knew or I would have just done the 5 days and probably caused a problem.  Thank you again!


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## Roll farms (Apr 8, 2011)

The thing w/ Pen G is if you DON'T do the full course (7-10 days), and then if the bug comes back, Pen G probably won't touch it...b/c the bugs that survived / come back have built up a resistance to it.

That's exactly why Pen G isn't as effective as it once was...too many people under dose, then the 'ick' comes back, and it won't work at all.

I guess another reason, that I didn't really even think about until your thread, that I don't use it often (but it's my 'go to' for wounds) is b/c we've dealt w/ Tetanus and Listeriosis here in the past.  

Pen G is the recommended drug for both.  And it worked!

Subconsciously I guess I'm 'saving' it for that, b/c I'm afraid if I use it for other stuff, it won't work when I really, REALLY need it.

Seems sorta silly but...well....I'm saving it in the unfortunate event that I ever need it again for either one...


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 8, 2011)

That doesn't sound silly at all.  It sounds like good common sense.  I keep them here and hope not to have to use them, but I have and will when needed.

My Daddy-in-law absconded with the Nuflor and didn't think anything of it because we typically don't use it.  So we started off on the PennG and just stuck with it.  I was thinking of it differently in that if the PennG didn't kick the ick's hiney, then I could step up and use the Nuflor.  I didn't think of needing PennG down the road.  Thanks so much for sharing that!

Around here, when something goes wrong with a goat, folks come to us for help.  Believe it or not, they think we are goat-wise despite us telling them otherwise!  I kept a fair sized herd years ago and folks remember that still.  So, they come to the "goat-family".  BUT on this board, I am constantly learning and absolutely loving it.  It's truly a comfort to have a place to go and ask questions, bounce ideas, request help.  Thanks everyone!


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## ksalvagno (Apr 8, 2011)

I don't use Pen G much either but it is the drug of choice for uterine infections in alpacas. For some reason the Pen G works the best in that situation. Not sure if the same would be true for goats.


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