# Remember my lumpy goat? It's spreading to others!



## Ariel301 (Aug 10, 2011)

I posted a while back about a goat with an odd hard lump on top of her head. I've tried repeatedly to drain it, and found that it is not an abscess (hence not CL) but is solid...whatever it is. I haven't found a vet who will do anything for me. I have been planning to remove it myself and just haven't gotten around to it...well now it's happening on more goats!

Two does have solid masses on the flank, right in front of the stifle joint. Again, they are not abscesses and won't drain, they're more like tumors or something solid. They pop up literally overnight to about an inch or two in diameter and then grow and grow, the biggest one is as big as a grapefruit now in only a few weeks. Two more does have them on the front edge of the shoulder blade, and a buck kept in a completely different area with no contact with these does has one on his chest. We've checked them all, and they are all the same, none of them are CL. These are showing up in my herd and also in the herd I bought the doe with the head lump from. 

Any thoughts on what is going on/where to go from here? We don't have a local goat vet at all.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 10, 2011)

I would be calling a lab and seeing if you can send them some kind of sample, or calling the vet even a couple hours a way that is good and driving a goat to them to look at, and take samples.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 10, 2011)

Fast growing lumps on the flank, right in front of the stifle, are **HIGHLY** suspect for CL..  That's a well-known site for a CL abscess, for sure..

ETA -- Sorry, posted this before I read the rest of the post about where all the other lumps are popping up.  If I'm thinking right, when you say 'front edge of the shoulder blade' and 'chest' also sound like CL sites..  And by CL sites, I mean they're lymphadic sites..

What are the chances that your goats are popping knots at lymphadic sites and it's NOT related to lymphadic swelling..?  And if that's the case, then what are the chances that a goat would have something that would swell the lymph nodes like this but NOT be caseous lymphadenitis, which is among the most common diseases in goats these days?

Me and Occam will be shocked if this isn't CL..


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## Ariel301 (Aug 10, 2011)

The problem is, these don't have pus in them like CL knots. I've stuck a needle in to drain them, and there's nothing there. The first goat has a lump on the very top of the head (not a CL site) that has been there for months now, and shown no indications that it's ever going to burst. The second doe to become affected, the one with the grapefruit sized lump on her flank, feels like there's blood vessels in there feeding this thing, it doesn't feel like CL at all. I'll look for a lab to send photos and samples to, there's not even a vet within a four hour drive that will touch goats. The local livestock vet, when asked what it would cost to get him to do a biopsy, asked me what I paid for the goat, when I told him $100, he told me to just save my money and buy a new goat! The herd this is originating in does have some CL affected animals, but these lumps are completely different from the CL. My goats are all vaccinated against CL, but one of my does (housed with the head-lump doe) has suddenly got a lump on her flank pretty much underneath the stifle joint--even though she's vaccinated and has never been exposed to a goat with an active CL lump. :/ The doe with the lump in front of the shoulder--it's on top of the shoulder blade towards the front (not really where CL shows up in that area, or farther back where vaccine lumps show up) and is about the size of my fist. I've tried draining all of them, which is usually pretty easy to do with CL, but there's no fluid in these at all. Really weird, but with several animals getting it, I'd think it's got to be contagious. 

Here's the head lump again.


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## Ariel301 (Aug 10, 2011)

Anyone know where would be a likely place to send a sample? And what to send them...since there's nothing in there to collect with a needle, I imagine I'd have to cut off the lump and send them that!


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## Hillsvale (Aug 10, 2011)

we had a doe with a lump on her neck, I tried to cut it but it seemed solid...squeezed it a bit and a bit of pus came out.... filled it with iodine and drained that... a day or two later it seemed to be back so this time I filled with iodine and left that there and gave her a shot of LA pen ... lump disappeared and hasn't returned... no one else has had any though.

we have vets who deal very little with goats as well..... hope you figure it out,


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Aug 10, 2011)

Ariel, where are you located?


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## Ariel301 (Aug 12, 2011)

Northwest Arizona. I'm going to cut into Juniper's head lump in the next few days and see what's in there, hers is the only one that doesn't feel like it has veins in it.


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## PattySh (Aug 13, 2011)

Does there look like a small center hole? We had a steer years ago that had botfly swellings  all over him. Some of the lumps got really big. I remember taking a scapel and being so grossed out when I thought there would be pus and a huge maggot thing came out.


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## Hillsvale (Aug 13, 2011)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Northwest Arizona. I'm going to cut into Juniper's head lump in the next few days and see what's in there, hers is the only one that doesn't feel like it has veins in it.


you might be better off trying a syringe to draw out anything.... it would give you a better idea if you need to cut into it.


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## Livinwright Farm (Aug 13, 2011)

Is there a possibility that there is some form of bee, wasp, hornet, fire ant nest around, and that these could be really bad stings or bites?  I figure if people can have anywhere from a BAD reaction to almost no reaction at all, it has to be possible in animals too, right?

ETA: potentially even what PattySh said about botflies..


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## Ms. Research (Aug 13, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Is there a possibility that there is some form of bee, wasp, hornet, fire ant nest around, and that these could be really bad stings or bites?  I figure if people can have anywhere from a BAD reaction to almost no reaction at all, it has to be possible in animals too, right?


You know what I think Livinwright has something there.  My dog Jake was bitten by something (wasp, spider) and had a lump on his side.  We thought it was a growth, and had it biopsied.  Found out it was NOT a tumor but a spider bite that was infected.  Maybe something is getting to your goats.


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## Ariel301 (Aug 13, 2011)

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> Ariel301 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have already done this. In fact, multiple times. That's how I know it's not CL.

No, there is no appearance of a wound or hole or anything like that with these lumps. The first one to appear, the head lump on Juniper, I thought maybe was a splinter or something that got in there and was infected, but it would have worked its way out by now. I had her on a course of penicillin and that didn't do anything either. I tried Oxytetracycline after that, and still no improvement. (I injected right into the lump and also a regular IM injection) 

It could be bite reactions...but would those likely stick around for over two months?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 13, 2011)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> It could be bite reactions...but would those likely stick around for over two months?


I highly doubt it.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 13, 2011)

MY husband took the time to read the thread and look at the photos and he thinks it is CL.  I would arrange to get some testing done. Doesn't mean he is always right, but he has been around a lot of livestock.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 13, 2011)

I did read recently (perhaps here?) that CL abscesses can actually occur in atypical locations where the bacteria enters the body via a cut or abrasion.  Take that with a whole tablespoon of salt, since I can't even recall where I read it... but FWIW I did read it somewhere recently.


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## damummis (Aug 14, 2011)

When I tried to aspirate my goats CL lump, I got nothing.  The "pus" is too thick to suck up in the needle.  Just my 2 cents.


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## PattySh (Aug 14, 2011)

Ariel What about Scorpion stings?


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Aug 15, 2011)

Is there any reason not to have a vet biopsy one and test for CL just to totally rule it out?


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## Ariel301 (Aug 16, 2011)

There's not a vet within a hundred miles who will biopsy it, otherwise I'd have done that already. Vets here don't know anything about goats, they don't even know what their normal temperature should be! I've been looking for a lab I can send a biopsy to if I could get one myself, but haven't had too much luck so far other than doing a CL test if there were pus in there. In my experience, CL lumps can usually be drained through a large needle (I use an IV needle meant for horses and cattle, it's huge, leaves a big hole)...but I guess there are probably super stubborn ones. I've never seen one take 2 months and still not break open...I'm going to cut into one this week and see what's in there. I feel weird saying it, but I HOPE it's CL...at least that's something we can deal with and not a new problem in the herd this is originating in. 

It wouldn't be scorpion stings. I've been stung a few times by the scorpions around here and it's not really any worse than a fire ant bite.


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## Livinwright Farm (Aug 18, 2011)

Sting lumps can stick around for a few months IF the stinger is still in there...

I know the plight of not having a vet near by... I am glad that we finally found one within 2 hrs drive... but if they weren't willing to work with us, I don't know what we would do.... Do you have a college in your state that has an agricultural extension? If so, they might be able to take and test whatever you are able to get to them...  I know UNH's Ag. Ext. can do stuff like that... just a thought.


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## Ariel301 (Aug 18, 2011)

Well, we got brave and cut into one of the lumps last night, this one was on top of the shoulder blade of a yearling doe. The skin had cracked on it and started to bleed, so we got in there with a scalpel, and found...something. It was deep, down inside the muscle itself instead of under the skin, once we got it out we were pretty much down to the bone of the scapula! We got a big ball of dark gray stuff out that looked and felt about like modeling clay, nothing like what I've seen before from CL lumps. Unfortunately I forgot to take a photo, but I'll cut open another one and document it, and I'm going to send a sample of this stuff off. Yuck!


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## Goatmasta (Aug 18, 2011)

I would cut another one out and not cut it open and send the whole thing in.  That will give you the best possible test results.


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## elieugene6 (Aug 18, 2011)

I don't know to much about goat problems and I don't know if this is it.  I have been watching this post for awhile now.  I just happened to think of this old book I have had for years.  1984 yearbook of agriculture animal health.  I looked in it and under abscesses is this is listed as the most common cause of abscesses.  Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis (ovis) when googling these pages came up:  

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/10801.htm    ---I like this one best

http://web.mst.edu/~microbio/BIO221_2010/C_pseudotuberculosis.html


http://www.johnes.org/handouts/files/Manning_CLA_JD_ELISA.pdf


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## redtailgal (Aug 18, 2011)

z


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 19, 2011)

Was the gray stuff a lymph node?


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 19, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Was the gray stuff a lymph node?


x2 That is what I was thinking too (flashback to college dissecting lab).


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## arabianequine (Aug 19, 2011)

I surely hope they are not in pain from you cutting on them, I would leave that job up to a vet myself.


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## Cornerstoneacres (May 31, 2012)

I know this is a SUPER old thread, but wondering if the OP is still around and wondering what they found out?


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 7, 2012)

Cornerstoneacres said:
			
		

> I know this is a SUPER old thread, but wondering if the OP is still around and wondering what they found out?


*

X2.

Also I don't see why you couldn't just send it to UC Davis, I send all my blood/ tests/ etc there.... I know your in AZ, but still....*


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