# HELP!!!  URGENT & QUICK!!! Read update post #20 - PLEASE!



## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

Long story made short:

I have posted some of this story here on this forum back in Oct/Nov, but just in case you don't want to go searching for it all:  We upgraded the living conditions of a miserably neglected Nubian goat.  Vet aged her as 2-3 years old.  We had her vaccinated (for 3 things which I can't remember, but the vet recommended them)...and slowly started feeding her.

She is steadily gaining weight and is doing really well.  We love her so much!

Two bits of bad news:
    1.   She is CAE positive.
    2.   She was bred by the original idiot owner (who I found out,  KNEW she was sick!).  He reports she was bred in mid to late August. 

The vet thinks she's probably pregnant (says they rarely have fertility probs - GREAT!!!)...and now - she's really looking a lot pregnant...this last couple of weeks, her sides have really popped out (I'll take new pics tomorrow)...and I believe I see changes in her udder.  Again...GREAT!

It seems likely that I will be bottle feeding babies -  as if they nurse they are likely to get CAE from her.  

I am getting ready to order udder tape (so the babies cannot nurse from her in case I'm not there) and other supplies I think I'll need...but my most important question is 

*How much of this do I need to order:*
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=cebda908-2166-4d76-998d-c343340185e5#tabs

Fiasco farms website (and my vet) both recommend it, but I don't know how much to order/administrate...and just in case - I need to order enough for two kids.

Lord have mercy!  Give me strength and wisdom...I have NO idea what I'm doing!

I've had horses my whole life.  Dogs.  Saltwater aquariums.  Cats.  Toucan.  LOTS of high-maintanance animals...but I have never had ANY pregnant animal - and never had to hand feed babies.

...and I've NEVER had a goat.  They are different than anything I've ever had, and nothing in my repetoire of experience has prepared me for this!  But we love her, and she has a home for life as long as she is comfortable!

PLEASE help - I appreciate everything!

*Do these feeders work? * http://www.hoeggergoatsupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=4241&cat=14&page=1


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## helmstead (Dec 24, 2009)

It's going to be OK!

Just use regular old human baby bottles - I prefer Evenflo - with the nipple cut open in an X shape.

Can you find goat colostrum around you?  I always keep some in the freezer (CAE/Johnes etc negative of course) for fellow breeders who might need it...

If not, use your doe's colostrum, just pasteurize it first (instructions can be found online).


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> It's going to be OK!
> 
> Just use regular old human baby bottles - I prefer Evenflo - with the nipple cut open in an X shape.
> 
> ...


OK....Full disclosure.  I have NO idea how to milk a goat.  NONE.  And no real help!  No one to teach me anything - I'm I work 45 hours a week at my "day job" then come home to our barn (3 horses, 30 chickens, 5 cats - you know the cast of characters!)

I looked on Craig's list to see if anyone had any for sale...but didn't find anything, so I thought the purchased stuff might work.

If I can find/purchase some frozen colostrum, how much should I buy?  How much to feed at each of the first feedings??


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## helmstead (Dec 24, 2009)

You're going to have to call other dairy breeders to find the colostrum - even cow dairies.  I've never been in the position to need the purchased supplement, perhaps someone else will be here eventually to advise you.

I would look for at least 30 oz.  You want the first 24 hrs of feedings to be colostrum if possible...and you can expect to get about 2 oz in at a time every 2-4 hrs (boy I hope you can get time off work!)...

My husband and I are self taught milkers...you can do this!  It's not hard, really, just makes your forearms sore at first LOL

Man I wish there was a simpler answer...if she wasn't too far along, I'd even recommend to lute her and be done with it, but this far in that's...um...yeah...


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks!  This is helpful!  I will be taking a couple of days off from work - after that, our schedule is this:

I'll feed at 6am and again at 9am before work...
My neighbor agreed to do noon feedings (kids at school).
Husband is home at 3pm (teacher)
I'm home at 6pm and am up til about 11pm

Our plan is to bring the goats home into our garage (our  barn is a couple of miles away) and set up a small, temp stall with a heat lamp (if needed) so that we all can check on them frequently.

I agree...we wish we had been able to terminate the pregnancy.  We did discuss this with the vet, but she (back in Oct.) felt that without knowing her breeding dates, that she may have been too far along and at risk for hemoraging.  

I also had initially thought I'd let her raise them and take our chances with the CAE....but I just can't knowingly inflict this on babies - especially when Gabby doesn't feel good, it's really sad.

I just posted a "wanted" ad on Craig's list - I'll keep you posted.  Thank you!!!!!


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

I just posted an ad on our local Craig's List to see if anyone has any goat colostrum to sell....I'll keep you posted! 

Thanks for your help and interest!!

PS  I have absolutely NO idea how to milk a goat....and though Gabby is VERY friendly and affectionate, she is not tolerant of her udder being handled!  And, BOY!  She is strong now that she's not starving!!!

This is her udder last month...I'll post an updated photo tomorrow - and she has put on a LOT of weight since last month!


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## helmstead (Dec 24, 2009)

Yeah even my seasoned milkers don't want their udders touched until they're fresh - then the want RELIEF!  Sometimes you DO need a helper for the first few times, then they quit kicking and settle into being milked.  REALLY it's not hard!

Your state SHOULD have a dairy goat assoc....try there, too!


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks, Kate!  You've been a great help!  I will look them up in the am and call them on Monday.  


HEY!!!  There are mini nubians????  ...off to look at your website!


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

I have my vet on the "look out" for another CAE positive goat (no billies!) to be company for Gabby....

...just so you don't think I'd expose any other goat to this disease!


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

OK.....Java Latte's little one is GORGEOUS!!!!


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## helmstead (Dec 24, 2009)

Thanks, I think they're both adorable, but that darker one...


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## Kelly G (Dec 24, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Thanks, I think they're both adorable, but that darker one...


I have to say....I'd be tempted if I didn't have CAE at my place!  That baby wants to be kissed right on its head!!!!  That darker one IS the one I like too!


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## helmstead (Dec 24, 2009)

Gosh...so sorry you have CAE!  Surely you can find someone who has a positive herd or something to get your girl a friend...

Thanks, again! I love my goaties...


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## Roll farms (Dec 24, 2009)

For what it's worth...
I've never fed a kid more than 3-4 times in 24 hours....ever.

I feed 'em colostrum when they're born, again 6-7 hrs later, then again in another 6-7 hrs....then they're fed milk at 7am, 2 pm, and 9 pm.  

I'm not advocating *my way*, just saying that it won't be the end of the world if you miss a feeding or need to adjust your schedule.  Every 3-4 hours would have been impossible for me, since I worked 8 hr shifts when I started w/ goats, and we bottle raise all our kids.

Another suggestion for when they're eating more than an 8 oz bottle, jeffers has nipples that fit on pop bottles that I love.  They pop on real easy and last.  I think they're called "Caprine nipples"....

Where are you located?  (Wondering if I could overnight you some colostrum if you're not too far...)

Good luck!


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## Kelly G (Dec 25, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Gosh...so sorry you have CAE!  Surely you can find someone who has a positive herd or something to get your girl a friend...
> 
> Thanks, again! I love my goaties...


Thanks, again, so much!  I do have my vet on the look-out for a positive companion (hoping for a polled wether!).

I will keep you posted and hug thoses babies for me!


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## Kelly G (Dec 25, 2009)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> For what it's worth...
> I've never fed a kid more than 3-4 times in 24 hours....ever.
> 
> I feed 'em colostrum when they're born, again 6-7 hrs later, then again in another 6-7 hrs....then they're fed milk at 7am, 2 pm, and 9 pm.
> ...


I'm glad to hear you say this.  My vet said feeding every 8 hours would be adequate...and it's the best many can do.  I'm still planning on taking off two days (and hoping they fall around a weekend so I'll have four days) and taking my neighbor up on her offer to help.

I'm located in Tampa, Fl.  I posted on Craig's list for colostrum last night - no responses, yet - but of course it's Xmas.  If I don't come up with some around here - I am glad to pay for and cover shipping for whatever you think I need.

I'll check out Jeffers - I love that catalog.


Thanks - both of you - you've been GREAT!


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## freemotion (Dec 25, 2009)

Kelly G said:
			
		

> I'm still planning on taking off two days (and hoping they fall around a weekend so I'll have four days) and taking my neighbor up on her offer to help.


I think you just guaranteed a Tuesday kidding...


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## fadetopurple (Dec 25, 2009)

Milking is actually pretty easy (well, the motion itself... not the part about getting the goat to stand still). 
If you just squeeze the teat, the milk will flow back up into the udder instead of coming out. You need to "close" the teat at the top by clenching your thumb & forefinger around it, and _then_ squeeze with the rest of your hand. Then, of course, release to let more milk in, squeeze again, etc. You can practice on your thumb. 

Hope that helps. There might be better guides somewhere else online, or maybe you already looked one up.

Best of luck! I'm sure everything will be fine.


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## freemotion (Dec 25, 2009)

I learned to milk through instructions on www.fiascofarm.com.  She suggests using a rubber glove to get the feel of it.  You will want to strengthen your hands in advance, though.  They give a LOT of milk shortly after they begin lactating.  

As a massage therapist and instructor, my hands were already very strong.  The best way to strengthen your grip is NOT with one of those squeezy things, it is via simple curls with dumbells, the type to strengthen your forearms.  Much of the muscle that moves your fingers is in your forearm.  Strengthening these muscles will strengthen your hands.

Putting the joints through a complete (or close to complete) range of motion is more effective in strengthening (using weights in a controlled movement, correct movement, and the amount of weight that challenges you but you do not move in a jerky way or shake when doing the movements) than isometric contractions, which are what you do with squeezy things sold for hand strengthening.  Isometric (iso=same and metric=length) exercise has little to no movement.  Milking requires movement.

Here is an example:  http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/WristFlexors/DBWristCurl.html

Do this with the hand facing up and again with the hand facing down.  The weight in the link is MUCH too big for most women, so gals, start with maybe five pounds and work up to ten if you are rather strong and big-boned.


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## Kelly G (Dec 25, 2009)

I was out feeding the horses tonight - and this is what I saw (I didn't even notice until I came home and started editing the pics...and she is NOT in heat, but acting a little odd (pressing her head against wall, hanging around in stall).  What is this discharge????!!!








I don't see much udder development, but I have noticed it has grown over the last few days - but not a TON.  As best we know she was bred in August...but the man was not really sure (we purchased her in order to "upgrade" her living conditions - so we did NOT breed her!  Here is  picture of her from October when we bought her:






Here are MORE pictures from tonight....PLEASE help!!!





















It is VERY important we catch her before she kids - she has CAE and we are going to have to bottle raise the babies.  I have the info to pasturize the milk.


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## jenjscott (Dec 25, 2009)

OK, the discharge is ok, its normal.  It looks clear, should not be green or foul smelling.  I would expect more udder development if she were birthing tonight, but that's no guarantee.  Its been a long time since I had goats, so I don't remember how long before birth this happens, but it certainly is getting closer, especially with the behavioral changes.


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## Kelly G (Dec 25, 2009)

Thanks!  We're going back to check on her in just a few minutes.


Over the last two weeks (or so) I have seen movement in the area in front of her hind legs but behind her barrel.  Does this indicate anything?

Can you use a stethescope to listen for a hearbeat?  Where do you listen?


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## JerseyXGirl (Dec 25, 2009)

I would say you have plenty of time, she doesn't appear to have dropped.  Feel her tail head for her ligaments.  Right on both sides of her tail head will be two ligs. that feel like pencils.  If you can feel them then labor isn't anytime soon.  If you don't feel them then labor within 24 hrs.


Here is a good site for labor signs:

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/prenatalcare.html


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## Roll farms (Dec 25, 2009)

That movement could just be her rumen.  The left side is the 'baby' side, the right side is the rumen side.

I've had does leak anywhere from 2 weeks to 2 days before kidding.  Can you grasp her tail head and feel if it's 'softening'...?
When you can nearly get your hand all the way around her tail base, you'll know she's getting closer.

I'm guessing her udder won't be as big as it would on a 'healthy' goat, considering the horrible conditions she was in before...so going by that alone may not be much help.  

You can also see contractions when the time's close.  It's sometimes hard to tell a real contraction from them just shifting their weight, but once the really productive ones start, they're hard to miss.  Anywhere from 1-6 hrs from when they start, you know kids are coming.

A THICK (thumb sized) rope of goo coming out is a great indicator, too.

I've never listened w/ a stethoscope...can't help you there, sorry.
Good luck!


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## helmstead (Dec 25, 2009)

Really, that looks like discharge associated with heat to me.  I don't think she's bred.  I'd have her to the vet for an ultrasound/radiograph so you can chill a bit.

Her udder is nonexistant...even emaciated goats will eat their own reserves to put on an udder.


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## KinderKorner (Dec 25, 2009)

I agree with Helmstead. It looks like heat.


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## Kelly G (Dec 25, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Really, that looks like discharge associated with heat to me.  I don't think she's bred.  I'd have her to the vet for an ultrasound/radiograph so you can chill a bit.
> 
> Her udder is nonexistant...even emaciated goats will eat their own reserves to put on an udder.


Monday seems like forever...and you're right - I'm so worried...such a big responsiblity...it would be good to chill.

I sure wish you lived closer


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## crocee (Dec 26, 2009)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> That movement could just be her rumen.  The left side is the 'baby' side, the right side is the rumen side.


I always thought it was he other way around. The left was the rumen and the right was baby.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/raisingrumens.html


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## Roll farms (Dec 26, 2009)

If you're looking at the goat head-on, it'd be your left that the babies are on....just one of those perspective things, depends on which end you're facing.


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## Kelly G (Dec 26, 2009)

Alright...I got video today.  If you have a second will you please take a look at it and tell me what you think.







She is restless today, but still no udder and no additional discharge.


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## freemotion (Dec 26, 2009)

I vote for in heat!  All that tail flagging means, "Come hither, Handsome!"

Gabby has a wonderful life, looks like!


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## Kelly G (Dec 26, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I vote for in heat!  All that tail flagging means, "Come hither, Handsome!"


Well, after a day filled with unnecesary drama - I think you and others are probably right.  It is just as likely that she is not pregnant - and that would actually be very good.

I'm going to be prepared - just in case...but after reading the input of so many, I'm afraid I have to agree with you.

Maybe she has a crush on Siggy the GELDING!  Good luck with that!


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## helmstead (Dec 27, 2009)

Very nice place you have!


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## Kelly G (Dec 27, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Very nice place you have!


Thanks, so much - that means a lot.  

Today...things are the same.  No discharge, no change in udder, and no drama


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## freemotion (Dec 27, 2009)

I think she was hoping Siggy would turn into a handsome prince if she kissed him through the fence!  Then leap the fence and have his way with her....the hussy!


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## aggieterpkatie (Dec 28, 2009)

Just an idea.....you said you're looking for a CAE positive buddy for her.  Well, if you can't catch the kids before they nurse, then THEY can be her lifetime buddies.    Just castrate the bucklings (if there are any) so you don't have any more kids.


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## helmstead (Dec 28, 2009)

You know how they have EIA horse sanctuaries?  Perhaps you can offer that for a few lucky goats so they won't have to be destroyed.  Most CAE positive goats are asymptomatic - so they'll still live long, happy lives whereas in a production setting they are usually culled.


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