# FDA Regulations for Vets and Sheep Producers - VCPR



## Legamin (Mar 16, 2022)

After looking on the FDA web site I am more confused that ever.  It seems that by 2023 all farm producers will have no other choice for antibiotics and some NSAIDS for pain control but the Vet…not just any vet but one that has submitted to, been licensed specifically for this purpose by, the FDA.  My first response was aggravation because many of us are already registered with the FDA Scrapies Program and they have a working knowledge of the size of our operations yet with this ‘law’ bearing down on us NEXT YEAR not one Federal appointee or employee has thought to send out a general letter of compliance to sheep producers…
The expectation of compliance without information creates the usual Government SNAFU in paperwork and last minute requirements, finding a vet that is part of the FDA program (evidently most are not and do not intend to comply so finding a vet will be harder….than it already is) and actually complying with new laws of which no one has bothered to inform us.  Annual inspections of every farm and a report of the conditions for animals must be submitted to the FDA annually…how many vets do you know are looking for more government paperwork to fill out?
Most of us have fewer than 100 sheep.  We are not major producers.  This new law gathers up everyone with farm animals and requires a once per year vet inspection and yet we know nothing about it until a local sheep producer group drops the bomb on us one year in advance of mandatory compliance…
Anyone else just want to take all of their sheep down to the Washington Monument and turn them loose to graze?  (poor things would end up in Gitmo for INSURRECTION!….a sheep fence would be built around the Capitol and Nancy Pelosi would fall into her usual hysterics)
If anyone else out there knows more than I do or knows of a list of Vets in compliance that are willing to take on new farms….let me know!


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## mysunwolf (Mar 17, 2022)

Locally, most vets that I know have already signed up in preparation for the new laws. It's very similar to when medicated feeds moved to the status of only being prescribed via VFD. Can you show the legislation for 2023 where they say the vet must fill out some kind of assessment of the farm annually? That's a new one for me.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 17, 2022)

Yes! get whatever you need NOW since in 2024 you won't be able to get anything over the counter!


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## Legamin (Mar 18, 2022)

mysunwolf said:


> Locally, most vets that I know have already signed up in preparation for the new laws. It's very similar to when medicated feeds moved to the status of only being prescribed via VFD. Can you show the legislation for 2023 where they say the vet must fill out some kind of assessment of the farm annually? That's a new one for me.


This was the assessment of the totality of the law which was sent out by WASP - ‘Washington Association of Sheep Producers’ - as one of the topics of their most recent national convention.  I did not see this specifically on the FDA web site so I don’t have a specific reference.  WASP is generally very accurate and informative.  This is the reason I was actually surprised to hear it from them first before being alerted by the FDA themselves who has my records on hand.  I will look at this again and contact the WASP rep. Locally to see how this regulation fits in and where to find it.


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## Legamin (Mar 21, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Yes! get whatever you need NOW since in 2024 you won't be able to get anything over the counter!


I’m probably stocked for the next 12 months.  The question will be whether vaccines and antibiotics can be frozen.  I would guess some can and some can’t depending on the application.  our vet mentioned that most basic antibiotics can be frozen for many years but to buy many small bottles as once they are open they will not last for the normal period of 6-12 months.  Worming meds will also depend on the type.  But I will have to start pulling white papers to see which ones are freeze tolerant.  Just one more regulation specifically designed to push out the smaller producers in favor of mega-ag producers that can afford to pay off politicians…I mean…hire a lobbyist.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 21, 2022)

I need to order another 100 3cc syringes for my basic CDTs.  Eventually probably will need vet prescription for those as well so better stock up.  I seem to go through them pretty fast since I use 2-3 per lamb every lambing, and 1-2 per adult annually.  With 35 ewes and 4 rams breeding it adds up.  

How do I find out which vaccines and antibiotics can be frozen?


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## rachels.haven (Mar 21, 2022)

Oh no.


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## Legamin (Mar 22, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> I need to order another 100 3cc syringes for my basic CDTs.  Eventually probably will need vet prescription for those as well so better stock up.  I seem to go through them pretty fast since I use 2-3 per lamb every lambing, and 1-2 per adult annually.  With 35 ewes and 4 rams breeding it adds up.
> 
> How do I find out which vaccines and antibiotics can be frozen?


The manufacturer puts out white papers on their web site.  Also there are some really good resources like Linesa Farms on You Tube who are suppliers of many products and I think he is a vet and is willing to answer questions through his web site.  I will be asking my vet and will post answers as I get them.  As for syringes bought two of the repeater syringes for $50 each.  They each have a different range of adjustable dose from .5cc to 10cc and 6cc to 60cc.  I ordered a couple hundred IM and SC needles for mature and young sheep (1/2”/3/4”/1”/1.25” and these will last me many years.  The syringes come with replacement parts that I put in a vacuum sealed bag in a fine machine oil preservative.  I just give the injection and jab an alcohol soaked rag between each sheep To avoid cross contamination.  I think it’s important to use single use syringes for those sheep that are obviously sick or diagnosed…that would be a quick way to spread a blood born disease through a flock by including them in the mass injections.  I don’t think I will ever surpass 40 sheep unless I get a larger bit of land and can grow my own hay.  As it is I can sell what I have where I am and buy 20x the land and house and buildings where I want to go….so the temptation is real.


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## Baymule (Mar 23, 2022)

This will hit small producers hard. Why can't these non farmer politicians keep their grubby fingers OFF our farms? GRRRRRR..........


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## Ridgetop (Mar 23, 2022)

When we first started with livestock, we had an old vet here who could diagnose and treat farm animals as well as horses and small animals. He died and we started learning how to doctor everything ourselves because no other vets would do any work on our dairy goats or sheep. If we needed a vet for something very serious, we had to drive 2 hours and often the animal would die in the trailer.    This included setting broken bones, stitching up skin tears, testing for mastitis, etc.  We had to learn about medicines available, treatments, etc. and luckily you could still buy the antibiotics etc. over the counter.  But since you had to have most things shipped, we started keeping a complete pharmacy in the garage fridge.  We were really careful with hygiene in milking, and I used diluted Iodophor for udder washing, following the final washing with a teat dip.  Iodophor is now a controlled substance!  I routinely treated my dairy animals with Tomorrow when drying off from the final milking.  I used Today after testing if I suspected a case of mastitis starting.  This meant ordering and keeping several dozen boxes of those treatments in the cabinets.  Now you can't even get them without a prescription here!  Next year you won't be able to get Penicillin, and I wonder how long it will be before you need a prescription for the routine livestock vaccinations!  DS1 says this is all part of the "libs" trying to do away with eating meat and do away with meat producers!  Gates has bought up a huge amount of farmland as have other wealthy vegetarians.  The pasture for meat animals can be controlled by those who don't want the rest of us to eat meat.  Either they want all the the good stuff for themselves, or they want to enforce their restrictive life styles on us.  BTW did you hear the latest in the "control emissions" rules from the "greenies"?  "Don't drive on Sunday" and "Drive Personal Cars Only Every Other Day" to control gasoline prices!  Since most of the lawmakers pushing this idea have government limos and drivers, this would not pertain to them!


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## Legamin (Mar 24, 2022)

Baymule said:


> This will hit small producers hard. Why can't these non farmer politicians keep their grubby fingers OFF our farms? GRRRRRR..........


I think once these petty tyrants get addicted to living off the Tax Payer’s Teat they are unable to digest anything other than Red Tape Spagetti….once they hit that point it is useless to talk to them.  I went in to the Tax office and asked for the papers to fill out for disability discount on Land Tax.  I got the blank stare and the flat answer: “There is no discount.  Everybody pays their fair share”.  And she turned back to the phone.  I showed her the print out on the State and Federal Web Site directing me to come to HER office and pick up SPECIFIC FORMS # XYZ and she got a nasty “I HATE YOU!” Look, walked over to a cubby where the forms were kept, quickly sorted out the three forms That I specified and brought them over to me.  Then said “I don’t think they use those forms anymore…everyone just pays their taxes when the state sends you the amount.  I smiled and left with the papers.  Her hatred of anyone that asks her to DO HER JOB was palpable.  She was nasty and condescending.  When I fill out the papers and have to take them back in I’ve asked my lawyer to go with me to ensure they will get turned in properly and not round filed. 
These people actually cannot care less if you die….as long as your taxes get paid and their paycheck cashes at the bank.  They have no connection to our reality or to what it is like to work an honest day’s work and actually PRODUCE something.
Frankly, I would love to be there next Christmas when she looks at lamb prices as sees that they have tripled in one year but her Gov/t check only went up 4.6%….maybe I wouldn’t….I know how I feel when that happens.


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## Legamin (Mar 24, 2022)

mysunwolf said:


> Locally, most vets that I know have already signed up in preparation for the new laws. It's very similar to when medicated feeds moved to the status of only being prescribed via VFD. Can you show the legislation for 2023 where they say the vet must fill out some kind of assessment of the farm annually? That's a new one for me.


One of the big things here is that vets are in shortage for farm animals and getting an on site appt is like pulling teeth….except it’s easier to find a dentist.  Often a critical emergent appointment can be had within three weeks.  By then you have gotten out the backhoe and dug the hole and buried the carcass below the predator dig line.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 24, 2022)

It is very important to have a vet that you can form a good doctor/patient/owner relationship with.  When we go back to TX this year, I am going to visit the vet that was recommended to me to talk with him and his office staff.  Even though we will not be moving for another year, I want to make sure that he will be on board for my flock.  Most flock owners don't rush to the vet or call him out for every little thing, but it is important to have a vet that will recognize your name when you call with a true emergency.  Also necessary to get prescription drugs for your flock.  I am lucky since our vet lives about 2 miles away, I taught his preschoolers, and have known him since he went back to vet school.  He knows if I call with an emergency it is a true emergency.  His new wife is as a vet and lucky for me she did her work in sheep!  He refers all the flock work over to her!


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## Baymule (Mar 25, 2022)

Legamin said:


> One of the big things here is that vets are in shortage for farm animals and getting an on site appt is like pulling teeth….except it’s easier to find a dentist.  Often a critical emergent appointment can be had within three weeks.  By then you have gotten out the backhoe and dug the hole and buried the carcass below the predator dig line.


Boy, did this hit me where I live! I recently moved here, just weeks ago. Then I promptly got sick, I think it was Round #2 of Covid. I had a registered, pregnant ewe go down. I called @Ridgetop and she told me in great detail what to do. Great! Except that I was so sick and so weak that I barely made it out to even feed and water, no way I was going to take a ewe down with a flying tackle, I didn't have my sheep working equipment set up, nothing, nada. I started calling vets. For some reason, if you have an emergency and you are not already a client, vets don't want you-at all. If it is a weekend they won't even take a message and call you back. And if it involves a sheep, it's like you just arrived from another planet.

*By then you have gotten out the backhoe and dug the hole and buried the carcass below the predator dig line.*

This. I was watching her slowly die. She was 45 days out from lambing. Even if I could get a vet out, I could still lose her, lose the lambs and have to dig a hole for a big vet bill. So I salvaged what I could. I called a friend with 4 kids and told him to come shoot her, take the carcass, dress it out and put meat in his freezer. A total loss to me, somebody might as well get some good out of it. And that is what happened. I was in pajamas, carhart overall over my PJ's and I had him and his brother take her out of the pen, bring her up front and shoot her in the back of the head. Much more merciful than slowly dying. With a bad taste in my mouth, I went back to bed. 

Sometimes you have to make those hard decisions. Sometimes, no matter what you do, you still lose.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 25, 2022)

Baymule did the smart and merciful thing by having someone come out and take the ewe to use the meat.  Sometimes euthanasia is the best option.  I have had to go that way several times and it is always harder on you than on the poor animal who is suffering.  Not only is it a big monetary loss if you are a rancher, but a big emotional loss as well.  We all have an attachment to our animals, and usually by the time we have to put them down we have tried everything to save them.

As soon as you move to a new location you need to find a vet for your large livestock.  If you get a recommendation from a current client that is the best thing because you can tell the vet that he was referred by a client.  (Hopefully one who is a good client and has paid his bill!  LOL).  Set an appointment - NOT AN EMERGENCY CALL! - either to talk in the office or a ranch call for a general health evaluation.  Take your dogs in for health evaluation and shots if needed. Once you are on his books, you will be able to talk to him/her on the phone and will be able to get an emergency call out.  It is really important to do this even if you do it before moving into the new property.


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## Baymule (Mar 25, 2022)

I’ve picked out a vet in Crockett, there is 2 vets in the office and they do large animals. My dogs are coming up for shots and I’ll go introduce myself.
And thanks for being my support in such a losing situation.


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## Legamin (Mar 25, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> When we first started with livestock, we had an old vet here who could diagnose and treat farm animals as well as horses and small animals. He died and we started learning how to doctor everything ourselves because no other vets would do any work on our dairy goats or sheep. If we needed a vet for something very serious, we had to drive 2 hours and often the animal would die in the trailer.    This included setting broken bones, stitching up skin tears, testing for mastitis, etc.  We had to learn about medicines available, treatments, etc. and luckily you could still buy the antibiotics etc. over the counter.  But since you had to have most things shipped, we started keeping a complete pharmacy in the garage fridge.  We were really careful with hygiene in milking, and I used diluted Iodophor for udder washing, following the final washing with a teat dip.  Iodophor is now a controlled substance!  I routinely treated my dairy animals with Tomorrow when drying off from the final milking.  I used Today after testing if I suspected a case of mastitis starting.  This meant ordering and keeping several dozen boxes of those treatments in the cabinets.  Now you can't even get them without a prescription here!  Next year you won't be able to get Penicillin, and I wonder how long it will be before you need a prescription for the routine livestock vaccinations!  DS1 says this is all part of the "libs" trying to do away with eating meat and do away with meat producers!  Gates has bought up a huge amount of farmland as have other wealthy vegetarians.  The pasture for meat animals can be controlled by those who don't want the rest of us to eat meat.  Either they want all the the good stuff for themselves, or they want to enforce their restrictive life styles on us.  BTW did you hear the latest in the "control emissions" rules from the "greenies"?  "Don't drive on Sunday" and "Drive Personal Cars Only Every Other Day" to control gasoline prices!  Since most of the lawmakers pushing this idea have government limos and drivers, this would not pertain to them!


Absolutely!  Let’s all return to the ‘Blue Laws’ of the Bible Belt so that they can control our lives a bit further.  Every time they open their mouths they scream “LET’S MAKE AMERICA A COMMUNIST COUNTRY!!!” With all the poverty, food lines, shortages and unseated homes… Only when they have dragged all but the Billionaire Elite down to the lowest levels of poverty and subsistence can they feel that they have reached their goal.  It is not about the environment, it never was, it is about the destruction of America and Democracy.  For some reason they don’t want to leave but they feel it absolutely necessary to destroy THIS Republic.


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## Legamin (Mar 25, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Baymule did the smart and merciful thing by having someone come out and take the ewe to use the meat.  Sometimes euthanasia is the best option.  I have had to go that way several times and it is always harder on you than on the poor animal who is suffering.  Not only is it a big monetary loss if you are a rancher, but a big emotional loss as well.  We all have an attachment to our animals, and usually by the time we have to put them down we have tried everything to save them.
> 
> As soon as you move to a new location you need to find a vet for your large livestock.  If you get a recommendation from a current client that is the best thing because you can tell the vet that he was referred by a client.  (Hopefully one who is a good client and has paid his bill!  LOL).  Set an appointment - NOT AN EMERGENCY CALL! - either to talk in the office or a ranch call for a general health evaluation.  Take your dogs in for health evaluation and shots if needed. Once you are on his books, you will be able to talk to him/her on the phone and will be able to get an emergency call out.  It is really important to do this even if you do it before moving into the new property.


Agreed, but if there is a critical shortage of vets in the are where you live….but wasnt when you moved there….getting insta-appointments is basically demanding that they leave 20 patients and their busy office to come to help your animal..around here it just doesn’t happen.  What has happened is that city people are traveling further out to find a vet that isn’t too busy.  That means that our rural vets are getting bogged down with ‘depressed cat syndrome’ when they formerly had whole days to set aside for emergency patients.  It’s just something to work around.  I will be looking into more ‘home remedies’ for the less dramatic illnesses.  There are many people doing it so the information is out there.  It’s just so easy to pop a shot of something into the animal and watch it jump up and run away happy!  The old saying “By the time a sheep shows symptoms…it’s dead” is not that far off.  So there really still is a need for vets.  This may be the issue that pushes me to move to a different area.  But I still have a year to finish many projects before that can happen.


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