# Plans with my Bottle Calves



## cjc (Feb 21, 2017)

Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on what you would do if you were me for next breeding season.

I bred 4 of my cows last year. 3 of my 4 girls died. Yes, 3 of them! I only got 2 calves out of the 4 (both bull calves). The only girl I have left standing seems to be almost stunted, she's TINY but she spit out a really big calf! Her calf is 8 months old and already bigger than her, so I am going to keep her regardless as she's a great mother and took really fast.

I have 4 heifer bottle calves, they will be 1 year old in June. They are Angus X Holsteins but they are good looking, big girls. The story I got from the dairy as to why he didn't want to keep any calves and crossed his girls to an Angus is because he just has no interest in raising calves. So he crosses all calves with an Angus so people like me or veal raisers will pick them up. I have also heard dairy farmers cross their dairy cows with a beef cow when they have cows that don't take easy because they don't want their calves, so of course I worry a bit about genetics.

So I am asking myself a few questions.
- Should I keep my 4 bottle calf heifers and just breed them early fall?
- Should I suck it up and buy a few good beef heifers/cows and breed them instead and sell all my bottle calves? (I have 4 bull calves as well)
- Should I just not breed at all, sell everything (other than my pets of course) and just buy more bottle calves this season? I am pretty discouraged because of my year last year.

I also have a Jersey, she will be a second time calfer. I wonder if I take my stunted girl, my jersey, my 4 bottle calf heifers (when they are ready) and breed them all to a black angus bull. I have only ever bred to a shorthorn. But, I think if I breed my Holstein x Angus girls to a Black Angus it may hide the Holstein a bit as we all know the dairy cow in them brings down their value. The vet told me my girls would probably make great mothers because of the dairy gene. They are all pure black with only a tiny white mark on their udder.

What would you do if you were me?


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## farmerjan (Feb 21, 2017)

cjc;  since we have "become friends" with all the posts about the jersey way back....here's my take
First to address the hol x angus heifers.  There are a couple of reasons why many dairies use beef.  # 1 - the calves are more saleable to the public to raise for beef.  # 2 - they breed the bottom end of their milking cows to beef so they don't even consider raising a heifer that might only be a mediocre milker.  This is getting quite common in some areas, in fact the jersey breed is promoting that to "add value" to the calves from their less than great milkers.  And since the jersey breed is a very good "marble-ler" they add to the finished beef carcass in the right markets.  # 3 - they often will use a beef breed or another breed  (say jersey semen on a holstein)  on a cow that is hard to get bred.  Often it is a cow that for whatever reason just won't settle and so it's the attitude of  "get her pregnant to anything, get a calf, and get a clean start next lactation" .  For some reason, maybe due to the stresses of high production on a dairy, often a cow may go cystic, or just doesn't settle.  One of my hol x jer cows is just that result.  
I have not seen any evidence of the resulting heifers being anymore difficult to get settled than any other of our beef heifers.  I do believe that the "last ditch" chance breedings are more a nutritional thing for the cow than a real big reproductive problem.

Let me ask one thing.  You are expecting also right?  How will having the baby affect you with the time and/or help to take care of the calves?  And when are you due and when are you wanting to have the calves?  Timing can be manipulated if you think it through as to when you do and do not want to deal with calves, and milking your jersey.  But you gotta plan that 9 months in advance....easier to plan the cows than the people 

I have put all my dairy animals with the angus bull this fall and will have all cross bred calves next year.  Several reasons.  They have been open longer than I originally wanted but I was in the midst of trying to decide on the possible knee and also ankle replacement surgeries and KNEW  I would be out of commission for awhile and my son does not do good with the nurse cows.  Since I have opted to go the prolotherapy route and know it will take up to a year to repair the ankle damage if it works, decided that they needed to be getting bred.  If it doesn't work then I will have to do surgery and that will be in 18 months or 2 years.
I will get them calved out in the fall, get additional calves grafted on them and then I will not be milking unless I want to lock the calves away from one overnight.  Then I will be more in a place to know where I am going from there. 

The 3/4 angus calves you will get out of the 1/2 heifers  you have will look more angus than the heifers.  They will raise VERY NICE calves due to the dairy in them and the milk they will produce.  In fact you will have to watch them as sometimes they will make more milk and a second calf may need to be put on some of them.  The size of the udder at close to calving will determine your decision on that.  The jersey will be able to have the angus calf with no problem, and if a heifer will be the same as your bottle x girls as far as future potential.  

If it were me, I would not sell the animals I know, the dispositions and all are established, the one cow and the jersey have done fine and sometimes it is just the odds for the bad luck you had this year.  I am well acquainted with loss too this past year.   If you breed them angus, there are no guarantees.. but in nearly every case the calves are easy to be born.  The hol x girls will have a little more frame so should be able to handle the calvings and the jersey is 2nd time so should be of no concern.  If your other one had a big calf with no problems then I wouldn't worry about her either.  

Realize that if you were to buy breds, there is no guarantee that there won't be problems and you won't have any idea if the bull they are bred to will throw big or small calves or what.  At least with these animals that you know, god forbid there is a problem, you will be more likely to be able to work with them than an unknown animal.  

Black is "the only color" around here, and the 3/4 angus calves usually do pretty good and will often fit in a "group" with the straight angus feeders when we sell.   I keep all my heifers from the crosses and use them as "beef" cows unless they have alot of udder and then they might wind up in the barn to raise 2 calves.  The dairy cows will each raise 3-6 all according if I put a second group on them, but at least 3 each.

I've got 5 dairy cows being bred now 1 - hol/jer;   her 3/4 jer/ 1/4 hol daughter; old guernsey; and her 1/2jer-1/2 guernsey daughter;  and the straight jersey.  I also have 4 jersey/ angus cows out in the beef herd;  and 4 yearlings - 2 jersey heifers and 1 guernsey/angus and an angus x  out of the 3/4 jersey x.


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## cjc (Feb 21, 2017)

farmerjan said:


> cjc;  since we have "become friends" with all the posts about the jersey way back....here's my take
> First to address the hol x angus heifers.  There are a couple of reasons why many dairies use beef.  # 1 - the calves are more saleable to the public to raise for beef.  # 2 - they breed the bottom end of their milking cows to beef so they don't even consider raising a heifer that might only be a mediocre milker.  This is getting quite common in some areas, in fact the jersey breed is promoting that to "add value" to the calves from their less than great milkers.  And since the jersey breed is a very good "marble-ler" they add to the finished beef carcass in the right markets.  # 3 - they often will use a beef breed or another breed  (say jersey semen on a holstein)  on a cow that is hard to get bred.  Often it is a cow that for whatever reason just won't settle and so it's the attitude of  "get her pregnant to anything, get a calf, and get a clean start next lactation" .  For some reason, maybe due to the stresses of high production on a dairy, often a cow may go cystic, or just doesn't settle.  One of my hol x jer cows is just that result.
> I have not seen any evidence of the resulting heifers being anymore difficult to get settled than any other of our beef heifers.  I do believe that the "last ditch" chance breedings are more a nutritional thing for the cow than a real big reproductive problem.
> 
> ...



Thank you for all this info! Yes I am expecting a baby around late April early May. My girls will all be out in pasture until my baby is about 3 months old, then the bull would need to be added. My mother would need to raise the bottle calves if I got more this year without any promises from help from my end! First baby, who knows haha. That's another thing too...there is only so much I can ask of my mother, she's getting older and the bottle calves can be pretty rough on her to say the least.

So you are thinking what I was thinking, take all my girls and breed to a Black Angus. You're so right about knowing these cows and working with them. All but one is halter trained. I raised them by hand so they come up to me no problem. I guess if I leave a bull with them for 4 months who ever doesn't take care be sold with my bull calves.

I am actually pretty excited to see how my dairy cross girls are with calves. I see some of the Holstein X Angus girls out on a dairy by our place with their calves and they look fantastic. BIG udders on those girls. Maybe I wouldn't have to bottle fed any calves I bought at all...hmmm...


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## farmerjan (Feb 21, 2017)

If your hol/jer heifers will be a year in june, I would not push putting them to a bull before sept  at least.  Let them get to 15 months minimum.  We breed for 2 calving seasons here, bulls go in june for  starting calving in march.  And bulls go in the other group in late nov for starting calving in late aug/sept.   The weather has been real "off" this year, lots of 40's to 70's days here in Feb is not normal...but it has been this year.  So you don't know what to do any more, but I don't want Jan/feb calves in a normal year.

Sorry, I meant to say "your  hol/ angus heifers"  not hol /jer.


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## cjc (Feb 21, 2017)

farmerjan said:


> If your hol/jer heifers will be a year in june, I would not push putting them to a bull before sept  at least.  Let them get to 15 months minimum.  We breed for 2 calving seasons here, bulls go in june for  starting calving in march.  And bulls go in the other group in late nov for starting calving in late aug/sept.   The weather has been real "off" this year, lots of 40's to 70's days here in Feb is not normal...but it has been this year.  So you don't know what to do any more, but I don't want Jan/feb calves in a normal year.




I think September will be a perfect time for us to throw the bull in the mix


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## jhm47 (Feb 22, 2017)

I'm OLD!  In fact, after reading the previous posts, I started to reminisce.  Here is what came back to me: 

In the mid 1960's, I helped a neighboring farmer who was constructing a dairy barn.  He had 40-50 Holstein cows, and had borrowed my Angus bull to "clean up" those who didn't take AI.  Of course, cash was tight for them, so he offered to pay me in Angus/Holstein heifer calves.  I eventually wound up with about 12 - 15 of them, and winded up selling all but 5 of them, which I bred to an Angus bull.  These heifers were tremendous mothers, they milked well, and each raised 2 calves for me that first year.  The problem that I had was that it was difficult to get the half-bloods to rebreed.  I am sure that was because they were putting too much emphasis into producing milk, while they also were still growing. 

The five heifers (now cows) did begin to cycle regularly after I weaned the calves, so I started to wonder what I should breed them to.  A guy who lived about 35 miles away from me was an AI tech, and he sold semen for a company called Carnation Genetics.  He suggested that I learn AI, and breed my cows to German Fleckvieh bulls.  I liked the Fleckvieh cattle, and bought some semen (it came in the old glass ampules at that time).  The gentleman had several audio tapes that described how to AI cows, and he kindly loaned them to me.  I listened to them several times, and decided that I would try it.  If I remember correctly, I got two of the five bred on the first time, and felt pretty good about that.  The calves were outstanding.  Low birthweight, fast growers, and moderated the frame, which was much needed.  I used an Angus bull to clean up the ones that didn't breed.  So--I would up with 2 50%Fleck/Simmental heifers, and 3 - 75% Angus calves.  I really liked the Fleck/Sim calves, so bred more cows and heifers to them.  Over the years, I kept using Simmental exclusively, and now have built up quite a herd for us.  Of course, the original Simmentals were red and white, and over the years I've gone exclusively black.  We do have a very few with white faces, but not many. 

The moral of this story is that the Angus/Holstein cows can work very well, but you MUST keep them in good condition.  They just milk too much to breed back while nursing calves.  They require grain, and most people don't like to buy grain to feed their cows.  However, in my opinion and from my past experiences, it's a necessity. 

It's scary for me to think back on those days.  We lived on virtually nothing, and worked from sunrise to sunset for very little.  I remember stacking flaxstraw bales for 90 cents an hour.  Backbreaking work, and dangerous.  Took the money that I earned from that seasonal job and bought feed for my little herd of cows.  And now, nearly 50 years later, I'm still working off the farm in order to feed the darn things (I work for Genex, and breed cows for other ranchers)!

Then, In 1972, I met this young lady.  She stole my heart, and I soon liked her nearly as much as I liked my cows.  We married in 1973, and are still married.  We had our first daughter in 1976, and she's now a doctor.  Our older son was born in 1978, and he's a doctor too.  Younger daughter (1980 model) is a school teacher, and our younger son has a BS in sociology, but works in a factory.  Kids turned out nearly as good as my herd of cows, but they were a lot more work!

Now, my wife of 44 years wants me to sell the cattle so we can travel.  I spent my whole life building up a pretty good herd of cows, and just can't do it.  They are like my family to me.  My Dad is going to be 101 next month, and he still loves to tinker around with his tractors and help with the cattle a little.  I think that keeping active and having something to live for is important.  Every day I see someone who has retired, and doesn't stay active.  He/she soon seems to lose the will to live and dies quickly.  It's not that I'm afraid of death, just having too much fun with my wife, kids, grandkids, and cattle to cash out yet.  I do need to get my knees fixed soon though.

A few years ago, our older daughter got us tickets to go to Maui. They got our room, rented a car for us, and we had a pretty good time.  We went there with them and their daughters, and watched the little girls while my daughter and her husband (he's a dr. too) went to medical classes.  We stayed there a week right on the beach.  I was amazed at how many cattle there are on Maui.  The hills around the volcano had a lot of cows grazing on them.  I am not much of a swimmer, but liked to walk along the stony beaches and find shells and other stuff that floated up.  I had a good time, but am still kind of disgusted that our daughter didn't offer to pay us for babysitting!


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 23, 2017)

That's an awesome story @jhm47.   Nothing like reading a good success story - both with your cattle and with your family.  Congrats on doing an awesome job with both!


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## farmerjan (Feb 23, 2017)

Loved reading "your Story"  jhm47.  Your daughter did pay you for babysitting;   tickets to Maui, room, rented car.....sunshine, warm air, change of scenery, beach combing, enjoying real "grandpa time with your granddaughters"....

I have found that the 1/2 crosses  may need a little extra but seldom  have trouble getting them bred back.  Maybe 1 out of 5 some years which isn't too bad.  My jersey/angus x  ones seem to have a harder time if they are not supplemented.  Now, if I put a second calf on them then they automatically get fed grain so they will milk enough and then breeding back isn't too big an issue since they are getting extra.   And yeah, weaning the calf off will get them back into shape to breed quickly.   I am going to do a little experimenting this next year with some piedmontese and maybe some Aubrac.  Both are a "double muscled" breed, but they have the gene for the double muscling to not "kick into gear" until after the calves are born so there is little or no calving difficulty.  Had a few bred to Belgian Blue years ago and really liked the calves, got 2 bull calves, but they were big blocky calves and they are known for difficult calvings due to the size of the calves.  Have been spending alot of time looking at different breeding possibilities;  since black is the "only color" here that brings any money, any experimenting I do will be with a few select cows of mine.  But the piedmontese will put some "rumps" on them and if I use it on black cows might just get the black that I want with some "kick a$$" butts. We have almost all angus and crosses, a few red polls and some charolais and hereford cows but use only black bulls.  Don't like the couple of lim-flex bulls we've had...used a Braunvieh and the calves were okay, and simmentals are not liked here at all.  Take too long to put meat on due to the frames....no one likes anything with "chrome" or color or splotches or anything.  Shame they can't see past the hide, but when you are getting .20 less a pound for an otherwise real nice calf because it is not black, you can't afford to have very many that way.  There is a niche for my jersey steers,  but even then, you can put the time/money into them or into a black calf that will bring more.  The  jer/angus crosses do pretty good for family beef.

We also tend to keep "smaller" beef cows, most in the 1000 to 1200 lb size.  The calves seem to grow more uniformly for us and the cows just do a good job of rustling their own grub.  There are alot of bigger cows around but when we cull cows they are usually in the 1100 lb size.  They don't require so much inputs to maintain their body weights and breed and raise a calf.  It is just the whole thing of finding what fits your environment and your management style.


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## Baymule (Feb 23, 2017)

@farmerjan I don't have cows, used to have a few, but don't any more. I am amazed by your knowledge and the help you give to others here. You are awesome! I love reading your posts.

My husband had knee replacement last year and it went well for him. Number one important thing to do is NOT to take therapy from home health care, take your therapy in a regular facility as you will receive a better level of care. There are only so many small gadgets that a HHC therapist can carry around in their vehicle. For those that are home bound, HHC is a God-send, my own mother benefitted from HHC. But for really good care and recovery, go to a therapy facility as an out patient.

DH just had shoulder replacement on Feb 8, and is in his first week of therapy, 3 times a week. This one will be a longer recovery and he will be out of commission for a longer time. Knee replacement ain't no walk in the park, but it isn't as bad as people who love to share their "worst experience ever" horror stories love to tell others about with all the embellished gory details. Don't listen to them. If it was all that bad, people wouldn't have it done. A year later, he is fully recovered, he can RUN again and has NO PAIN.

He was up on his feet walking the same day that he had knee replacement surgery. You will be unable to carry on as usual for about 6 weeks. then will be able to add more and more to what you can do. But even during the first 6 weeks, you will be able to do some things. What helped his recovery was that he was in good physical shape and healthy. Now I haven't laid eyes on your conformation, but due to your level of activity that you talk about, I'm pretty darn sure that you are healthy, in good shape and will recover lickety-split. Just from reading your posts, I know you will be chomping at the bit to get back into the swing of things, but mind what the therapists tell you!


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## Baymule (Feb 23, 2017)

@cjc I didn't mean to high jack your thread. 

Edited to add; you make me want bottle calves, but I am not set up for them ......yet...... So if I get any--it will be ALL your fault!  Especially since a neighbor sent me a post yesterday that had Jersey bull calves, 2 weeks old, for only $50!! Bottle calves around here are stupid high, as much as $200!! Then I'll be the one on here asking for help. But we still have a long ways to go before I'd feel comfortable with bottle babies. We bought 3 pigs Monday and brought them home, I can do that--but bottle babies? Sure is tempting......


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## cjc (Feb 23, 2017)

@jhm47 thank you for sharing your story! I love it. Well I think you all have helped me make up my mind. I am going to try and breed my 4 Holstein X Angus heifers in September to an Angus bull. We will see how they do. Luckily I am a massive sucker and I feed all my cows grain all year round. I will use that same bull and breed my other girls to him too. May as well just try out an Angus cross this year after my epic Short Horn fail last year. Black cows are also an easier sell for us so we will see how we do.

I will still add 8-10 bottle calves this year but will buy mainly bull calves so I am not tempted to keep more!

@Baymule I will take the blame for your future bottle calves haha! You will curse me with your first batch and praise me with your second haha. They are delightful to see everyday. We put one of our bottle calves out with a mom and bull calf beef pair we have in one pasture a few weeks ago. The pair is really not friendly. Well after two weeks of being with my bottle calf girl they are finally letting us touch them. They are learning from her its really sweet.

Totally off topic but we didn't really mean to put that bottle calf in the pasture. We got hit with some wicked snow 2 weeks back and when my mom went out to check the calves in the morning the fence must not of latched all the way because of the ice. She went into the house and a few hours later is standing in the kitchen making lunch looks out and sees 9 of my calves starring back at her in the window. She said she ran out and they all came galloping over to her excited to see her! I told her to throw them in the front pasture where our beef herd was and I would help her move them the next day. Well they cried so much because they are so spoiled and wanted back to their warm houses she had to move them on her own. She just opened the gate and they all went running back to the other pasture. I think they were quiet shocked to see how normal cows live haha. All but 2 went back. 1 bottle calf, the girl in with the pair realized that the cow had milk, so she's staying haha. 1 other calf, my first bottle calf I got as an orphan from one of our cows decided he wanted to go into the barn stall I raised him in when he was sick and refused to leave. They are a funny bunch! If 9 of our beef herd cows got out I would be crying. But when the bottle calves, even now that they are grown get out, it's pretty darn cute.


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## Baymule (Feb 23, 2017)

I don't have the room to raise cows, but I might would raise up a steer for the freezer.....nah....I'd better not. Maybe I'll just buy one ready to go to freezer camp. I really miss having cows.

Be sure to post pictures of your herd!


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## cjc (Feb 28, 2017)

@Baymule Here are a couple cute pictures I snapped on the weekend of sleepy babies.


Thing 1 and Thing 2. Holstein X Angus Bull Calve Twin bottle calves, born in August.






Stew, Jersey Bull Calve born in September. He is not a bottle calf we let his mama raise him. We are going to give them 10 months in total together before we separate them.


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## Baymule (Feb 28, 2017)

I love calves! That pic of the Jersey calf in the hay ring is priceless!


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## WyndSyrin (Aug 3, 2017)

Here is my Murray


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