# Info on starting a goat farm



## glenolam (Jul 1, 2010)

I know that many of us have goats as pets or for milking, but I am considering starting a breeding farm that's more directed to the "backyard farmer" like my family is.  

To be honest (and please don't put me down for this, it's just my preference), I really don't want a registered herd of one particular breed - I would love to produce quality mixed breeds that could be sold to families who would love to have a goat, but can't afford the $200 - $300 it costs for a single full blood registered goat.  I'm not saying anything negative about registered herds by any means, I'm only thinking of targeting a different group - one that's not necessarily out for just meat or dairy.

That said, I was wondering if any of you have farms such as this and what you did, what worked, what didn't work, if it was actually worth it, the legal portion, etc.  I should also say that I'm not looking to make a profit, as we all know there's little money to be made doing this, but I am looking to have my animals help out their feed bill a little (such as selling chicken eggs, if you will).

Thanks!


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 1, 2010)

I haven't sold any kids yet but I have an Alpine/Nubian mix that I milk now. She is an incredible milker. When I breed her, she will be bred to my Nigerian Dwarf. I plan on marketing her kids for homesteaders. Her daughters should be good milkers and will be good for someone who just wants personal milk. The kids will also be a little smaller in size than a full size dairy goat which I'm hoping will be attractive to someone with a small amount of acreage.

If I were to really promote a meat/dairy type of goat for homesteaders, I would probably have a high producing dairy goat bred to a boer goat for a mix. You are getting a little less meat and milk but should be fine for personal use. I would also consider offering buck services and make some money on that side of it. People may be more interested if they don't have to own the buck.

I would research to see if it is something that would be of interest in your area. Some areas have more people trying to be SS than others. We have "developments" in our area that people have 3 acre plots and can have one or two livestock animals on them. So a dairy goat or two might be attractive for some of those people who want to be more self sufficient but don't have a lot of land.


----------



## Henrietta23 (Jul 1, 2010)

Can't offer any advice but I can say as someone who lives very close to you that I'd have been (and may someday be) someone interested in the goats you'd be offering.
Any chance you'd offer stud service when I'm ready to breed my does?


----------



## glenolam (Jul 1, 2010)

Henrietta23 said:
			
		

> Any chance you'd offer stud service when I'm ready to breed my does?


Absolutely!  I do have a buck that I could get for free if I wanted him; however I think for next year I might just bring my does to bucks this fall.  We're not really set up for a buck pen just yet   Of course, things change very quickly around here....we all know that!

Karen, your doe is the same as mine and I absolutely love her.  She's the reason I want to get into this.  I know my focus would be more dairy, but IMO people can do what they want (of course, nothing harmful!) and if they want to buy from me for meat that's their prerogative as long as they understand my goats are not primarily meat goats.

I know you started your farm a while ago, but can I ask if it's really hard to start or keep going paper-work wise?  We don't have a tax ID # or anything like that for farming - the only experience I've had with starting a business is for my husbands side business.  I'm familiar with what I'll need as far as selling, meaning sales tax, fed tax ID, etc., but I'm not sure how difficult it is to sell live animals.  I also know you're in a completely different area with different laws and I need to contact my local people, but I'd like to hear about how it actually works from others who are doing it, not the people you need to get the licenses from.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 1, 2010)

It really isn't too hard to do paperwise. I have an accountant who takes care of all my accounting things and I do have an attorney that did my incorporation and helps me out with that end of it. The cost of having the accountant and attorney is minimal as there isn't much for them to do. You have to save all of your receipts. You have to record all your income.  I use Quickbooks for my invoices and stuff. I do have a website that I maintain myself. I also keep medical records for all my animals and record any time that I do something to them.

Probably the biggest thing is that you have to look like a business. You can't own 3 goats and call yourself a business. The IRS considers that a hobby. I am still doing alpacas and added the goats. I have 19 goats and most of them are registered. I have bucks to use myself and offer buck services. So I was already an established agriculture business that just added goats. But I did get enough goats that it looks like a business and not a hobby. How many goats do you need to own to look like a business? Not really sure. I just know only a few goats don't qualify.

Selling live animals is not easy and you have to put a lot of time into it. No way around that no matter what kind of animal you are trying to sell. If you just want to take them down to the local auction then it is probably easy but if you want to sell to individuals, you do have to "pound the pavement" and get out there and get  yourself known. My first few years in alpacas we attended every show, fair and festival we could to get our name out there and let people know what alpacas were all about. By the end we were exhausted and burned out but we did establish ourselves. Now I'm known for my birthing services and don't have to get out there like I used to. There is no way I could keep that pace going.


----------



## glenolam (Jul 1, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Probably the biggest thing is that you have to look like a business. You can't own 3 goats and call yourself a business. The IRS considers that a hobby.


You know, it's kind of funny you say that because the woman I got my first doe from said the same thing.  I have talked to her about this a little because she was/is doing something similar to what I want to do (I say was because she's slowly getting out of it) but she couldn't help much in the way of the logistics because her accountant was an idiot when it came to agricultural stuff.  I have an accounting background, but I don't have the confidence in myself to start doing all that alone right now.  I've looked at the CT business websites and pretty much think I know what needs to be done, but I really enjoy hearing/learning about other's experiences more so I can fully prepare myself.

I currently have 7 does, 3 that I can breed this fall and all 7 will be ready next year, so I was really thinking about waiting until next year to start all of this (plus I want to get better at making soap so I can sell that too!). Not to mention the lady I got my first doe from (who is now a good friend) pretty much begged me to take 3 of her does and 1 buck from her because she's tired of it all!


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 1, 2010)

I started out w/ unregistered goats, some were mixed breeds...they were just pets and I didn't really care what they were, I loved them.

When I decided to be a 'real goat farmer'...and started breeding / selling kids, the question I got most often from potential customers was, "Are they registered?"

In our area, people wanted registered goats for their kids for 4-H and other shows.  

I hung on to a few unpapered favorites and have 'bred up' their offspring, which I usually sell a lot cheaper than I do the registered kids...
And I have many registered / purebred goats now.

The wisest words of advice I was given was:  "It costs the same to feed, maintain, and care for a registered goat as it does an unregistered goat."

Meaning, why not get a bigger return on your output (feed, meds, etc.) by selling kids that are worth more than 'mutt' kids.

I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN 'mutt' kids, I adore them...but if I gotta choose between selling a pb for $250.00 or a mutt for $75, when I spend the same amount of money to feed the parents....well, yeah...it make sense to sell them for more when I can.

I do spend more on pedigreed parents, but make up for it in 1-2 years worth of kidding.

I have a few customers who want 'cheap' goats, but where I live, most folks want 'good' goats, and I can try until I'm blue in the face...but some folks just won't accept that a goat w/ out papers (even though the goat  can't read them) is a good goat.

I don't agree w/ that concept...I judge the goat (health, production, etc.) but this is my business and I have to go where the money is....

Just food for thought.


----------



## glenolam (Jul 1, 2010)

I see your point 100%, Roll, and I'm really glad you chimed in.

When I first started looking for goats, like you I didn't care about pure, papered or anything like that.  But that's mostly what I found and it turned me off because I wasn't able to afford those types of goats.

I may change my mind later down the road, but for now I wanted to focus on providing families in situations similar to ours with the ability to own these animals without having to spend a week's paycheck (or less).  I know it costs the same to feed and maintain, but if I can't sell the kids because they're too expensive then it's all useless anyway.  Of course, that could bite me in the behind when no one wants the kids because they're not pure/papered....

I'm thinking it also depends on the crowd you attract.  If you have great reputations as professional breeders (as I believe you and ksalvagno do) people expect to pay more and get - what they believe is - much better quality goats.  _Just like you, I'm not saying either one is greater than the other, it depends on the person buying the goat._  If I can start out small and work up....

I imagine this as buying a purebred dog vs. going to your neighbor who's mutt just had puppies.  Example - My sister and her fiance bought a boxer for $1200 - he is a show dog and they wanted nothing but the best.  We paid a total of $150 for our two dogs - $50 for one and "donated" $100 to the humane society for the other.  They've had to spend over $3000 in two years on vet bills and we've spent $1000 in 5.  That's purely their choice, too, and I respect that completely.  I just don't think I would do that - not at this moment anyway

(Side note....our uncles purebred setter is going to whelp any day now and we have the chance to get a great bird dog who's grandfather is a national champion and father is on his way to being one, too, for about $200 or less - talk about temptation!)


----------



## patandchickens (Jul 2, 2010)

I would suggest approaching it as a hobby, at best... not something you'd expect to profit or even 'break even' from. 

If you just want to own some good-milking nonregistered goats and see how hard or easy it is to sell their offspring, sure why not. You might offset some of your feed and health costs.

Doing it as a *business* is a pretty dicey proposition though. As others have said, you will have virtually the same operating costs but half (or less) the income, and I do not believe that a whole lotta purebred goat breeders make an actual profit on THEIR herds (if you do the accounting noncreatively I mean).

It depends a huge amount on your area. In a lot of areas, it is hard to find non-freezer homes for kids *period*; but if you happen to be in an area with lots and lots of people who want goats, and relatively few people who already *have* them (who'd be your competitors, in the marketplace), I suppose it could work at least for a while. If your selling point is going to be "cheap goats", then remember you will not have the advantage that purebred breeders have, of attracting interest from people more than a car drive away, since once you add transportation to the price or a cheap goat it isn't a cheap goat anymore 

If you are interested in testing the waters AS A BUSINESS, you might consider seeing if you can find someone (presumably somewhere else) selling young good-milking unregistered goats, buy them, truck them to your place, and then advertise them for sale right away (either in milk, or bred with a kidding guarantee - you will probably have to keep a buck if you want to do this project). See how much interest there is. If you find them selling well, maybe there's a market to warrant breeding more. If you have trouble finding anyone who wants them, then that may be a sign.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat


----------



## mamaluv321 (Jul 2, 2010)

Well fwiw, here's my idea: you could start breeding mini-Nubians. To my knowledge there are -0- breeders within a 6 hour drive of me. Or kinders, (not sure exactly what that mix is but ppl seem to LOVE 'em) just a thought, but if you were to have good smallish milkin mutts, I'd buy one! And I checked, I'm only about 2 hrs from you...


----------



## glenolam (Jul 2, 2010)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> I would suggest approaching it as a hobby, at best... not something you'd expect to profit or even 'break even' from.
> 
> If you just want to own some good-milking nonregistered goats and see how hard or easy it is to sell their offspring, sure why not. You might offset some of your feed and health costs.


This is very much the idea.  It's not to mass-produce goats, for lack of a better term, but to help offset my costs a little and be able to help people reach their goals of having a small farm like we do.  



> Doing it as a *business* is a pretty dicey proposition though. As others have said, you will have virtually the same operating costs but half (or less) the income, and I do not believe that a whole lotta purebred goat breeders make an actual profit on THEIR herds (if you do the accounting noncreatively I mean).


My concern is if I treat this as a hobby and sell the kids w/out approaching this from the business side, the IRS will come a-knocking at my door wanting their cut and end up costing me more than if I just started a business.  I'm not in it for profit at all and know that if I wanted to be rich, "farming" in any sense is not the best way to go.



> It depends a huge amount on your area. In a lot of areas, it is hard to find non-freezer homes for kids *period*; but if you happen to be in an area with lots and lots of people who want goats, and relatively few people who already *have* them (who'd be your competitors, in the marketplace), I suppose it could work at least for a while. If your selling point is going to be "cheap goats", then remember you will not have the advantage that purebred breeders have, of attracting interest from people more than a car drive away, since once you add transportation to the price or a cheap goat it isn't a cheap goat anymore


Understood and agree 100% - I know I need more geographical research as to whether or not this would benefit the needs of local families.  Cheap would not be my selling point - let's call it reasonably priced for what you get.   I mentioned earlier that this type of breeding/selling is how I got my goats and the only reason my friend is now getting out of it is because she's too tired to keep doing it.  But if I don't try then I won't ever know if it did or didn't work....



> If you are interested in testing the waters AS A BUSINESS, you might consider seeing if you can find someone (presumably somewhere else) selling young good-milking unregistered goats, buy them, truck them to your place, and then advertise them for sale right away (either in milk, or bred with a kidding guarantee - you will probably have to keep a buck if you want to do this project). See how much interest there is. If you find them selling well, maybe there's a market to warrant breeding more. If you have trouble finding anyone who wants them, then that may be a sign.


You've hit the nail on the head here - this is actually where I've already started and plan to elaborate on.  As I mentioned, if people want freezer kids, they'll be fully aware that meat goats are not my focus due to the breeds I have and would get.  HOWEVER, if I find that people are looking more for meat than dairy, I might change the direction.  

Trial and error I guess - but something needs to give because soon it'll either be contribute or find another home! 

I really, really appreciate all the comments and feedback, by the way.  Please keep it coming as it's helping me determine if I really do want to do something like this.


----------



## patandchickens (Jul 2, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> My concern is if I treat this as a hobby and sell the kids w/out approaching this from the business side, the IRS will come a-knocking at my door wanting their cut and end up costing me more than if I just started a business.


My fairly strong understanding -- although I have not lived in the States in eight years now, so you should definitely doublecheck me on this!! -- is that at least with livestock, there is no problem with selling a few for money, as long as your expenses equal or exceed the proceeds of the sales you do not owe any taxes on those proceeds. 

The main difference, AFAIK, between doing it as a hobby vs doing it as a business is that if it's a hobby, you can only deduct expenses up to to proceeds of sales; whereas if it is a business there is no limit, i.e. you could potentially deduct more expenses than there are profits (i.e. a loss year). It doesn't sound like you're requiring the ability to write off losses, so, I don't see that it needs to qualify as a business. 

(To keep all i's dotted and t's crossed you should still file the long form and actually report your profits and expenses, although frankly if they are small I doubt there would be any issue as long as you can produce receipts in the case of an audit)

Good luck, have fun,

Pat


----------



## glenolam (Jul 2, 2010)

Thanks for that info, Pat!  I do much better with people actaully talking and coaching me on stuff until I get a clear understanding.  Right now I'm in the process of trying to talk to people with a good understanding of this process to help me along the way - with respect to both the legal portion and the physical portion.  I can read the IRS or local DRS websites/information until I'm blue in the face, but _comprehending_ it is a completely different thing.


----------



## Henrietta23 (Jul 2, 2010)

Just to throw it out there, I'm leaning towards breeding my Nubian to a Nigi.


----------



## glenolam (Jul 3, 2010)

mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> Well fwiw, here's my idea: you could start breeding mini-Nubians. To my knowledge there are -0- breeders within a 6 hour drive of me. Or kinders, (not sure exactly what that mix is but ppl seem to LOVE 'em) just a thought, but if you were to have good smallish milkin mutts, I'd buy one! And I checked, I'm only about 2 hrs from you...


Things are starting to look better! 

And to you and Henrietta - Mini Nubians/Kinders are what I was thinking, too, but I would be afraid to label them as such because I don't want to promote something I don't _really_ have.  I'd feel like I was jumping on a train I didn't have a ticket for....

However, there is nothing wrong, in my mind, for advertising that I have Nubian/Pygmy or Nubian/Nigerian crosses and just give very good descriptions!  I actually PMd another member quite a while ago about how to start a mini nubian/kinder herd and I have two does that I can definitely start out with.  They're not full nubian, but if I breed both to a nubian buck, their offspring will be that much closer.  Or I could just buy another goat.....


----------



## Mea (Jul 3, 2010)

Just a little "for what it might be worth"....

  Kinders are a cross between a Nubian and a Pygmy goat.  While they might milk more than a straight Pygmy they are more a "meatier" animal.

  Mini-Nubians are a cross between a Nubian and a Nigerian.  These are  dairy animals.


----------



## glenolam (Jul 3, 2010)

And I have access to both types of bucks! 

I keep talking to my *ahem* better half about this and so far he's liking the idea.


----------



## AdrieeC (Jul 6, 2010)

I am VERY new to goats. What you are talking about is what I really wanted. All I want is to have enough milk for my family to make our own dairy products. I really was not concerned with the papers and showing or anything at all. In my particular area it would seem there is a sore lack of dairy goats of any kind. I decided on Nigerians because of their small size and ability to breed year round. I am looking for them to be registered for kid selling purposes. In my area also, so many people who have goats have closed herds and I would have to drive for a full day to get to someone who offers breeding services, not to mention I would have to notice when she is in heat etc. So I decided to keep bucks too. I happened to have found an excellent deal on the two of them, so I snatched them up. I am still looking for does, but no one is selling at the moment. I think I will buy a couple of my mentor's does in the fall.  I intend to start them out at the prices they are worth, but if it gets down to a point where I have to move them I will sell for less. I'm not looking to make money, just looking to have milk for our family, and I want other families to enjoy showing, have that joy of being more self sufficient or having pet goats, whatever their goals are. 

In Texas I used to work for the state, and my understanding was that each year a farmer would fill out a schedule F and as long as their total income after expenses was $200 or less, no taxes were taken.


----------



## glenolam (Jul 6, 2010)

I've been looking on-line at the IRS site as well as other things I found and it seems like if you have a "hobby farm" you don't need to fill out sched F, you just put your additional income on your 1040 and include your expenses in your itemized deductions.  The itemized deductions are classed into 3 categories - 1st includes things like property/real estate taxes and mortgage interest.  2nd includes things like insurance premiums and every day expenses.  3rd includes expenses that affect the basis of property.  

Doing the "hobby farm" method means you can only deduct your expenses up to the amount of your revenue.  If I was really trying to make a profit and creating a business for this, I would be able to deduct ALL expenses related to the farm and report losses on schedule F.

Here's a good short article I found 

Now, my thought is that if I make $1000 revenue and add that to my income as a hobby farmer, we won't be able to deduct ANY of the actual expenses it cost us to run our farm for 2 reasons:

1 - Our deductions in category 1 will definitely outweigh this "income" 
2 - The total 'other misc' expenses for running our farm (I am assuming) will not reach the 2% of AGI limit as we both have full time decent paying jobs.  Therefore, we won't be able to claim any of them as a deduction.

But - I'm not really worried about that because at least if I am showing my revenue and providing all receipts for the expenses, I can legally sell my goats, even chickens and eggs, and not worry that I'll get that knock, knock, knock on the door.  After all, my goal right now is not to make a profit, but to not get in trouble for selling some kids to help my feed bill.

I may even file the form 5213 which says that I'm not sure if I have a business or hobby.....

Ahhhhh.....  This is exhausting!

I did find this thread over on BYC too.  Great info here!


----------



## sammileah (Jul 6, 2010)

i would love to find a mix breed breeder.  i went into sticker shock when i started looking for a dairy goat.  i'm still looking. so i wish you where in iowa.


----------

