# I know, I know, I'm at it again....Ivermectin, Cylence, deficiency?



## Our7Wonders (Jan 31, 2011)

I was just going to worm them.  They've never had a chemical wormer used, if I was going to use ivermectin for the fleas/mites I figured I'd cover my bases and hit 'em for the worms too.  BUT, I decided to have the vet run a fecal first.

Clean.  No problems found at all.  

So should I just use Cylence instead of ivermectin?  Does it take care of BOTH fleas and mites?  I don't even know if I'm dealing with a bug or not.  I can't find anything on them at all except a lot of dander flakes.  But very coarse hair and alot of hair breakage.  

This could be a copper issue, right?  Or could it be selenium?

My vet seemed concerned when I suggested copper bolus  or selenium.  He was worried about toxicity.  He was very nice, however I'm concerned he isn't all that familiar with goats.  He said a "good free choice mineral for sheep or goats should suffice".   What the heck?  I said "well, I'm using a loose mineral for goats because the sheep one would be way too low in copper".  To which he said "you should be good then".  

It's mostly horses they see there.    

Should I use Cylence and dust the area just in case?

I sure wish there was a sure way to tell if copper or selenium were needed.  Or a bigger margin of error between not enough and too much.  I had been adding their mineral to their feed to make sure they were getting some - they hated it at first.  Now that they've decided to accept it (picky goats!) I've been putting it out free choice and they are blowing thorugh it.  Feed directions say to give each head up 1/4 to 1/2 ounce daily.  1/2 -1 Tbsp, right?  So that's what I was adding to their feed.  They've been burning through about a cup between the two of them daily the last three days.  Obviously deficient in something.  But now that they're getting so much of it I'm concerned about a bolus on top of all that.  Uggghhh - goats!

I'm glad worms aren't a problem.  That was good news.  And I think I saw baby or babies moving in Ariel today - little jabs low on her right side.  I had nothing better to do then stare at her while I sat their waiting for her to poop so I could collect her goat berries.  A watched pot never boils.  A watched goat doesn't like to poop either.

So, what do ya think?  Ivermectin?  Cylence?  Copper? Selenium?  Vet isn't gonna clear it up for me, that's for sure.

Sorry I'm such a PITA.  I really don't want to hurt them in my efforts to help them.  Their previous owner rarely did ANYTHING other than give them a little oats and BOSS and garlic.  They've been healthy.  I bring them hear and try to add what's been missing and they start to have problems.  It figures.  

Goats =    And these are minor issues.  I don't know how you all deal with the bigger issues!


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## elevan (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm not saying that yes, copper is the problem.  But, I had a goat that had a rough, brittle coat and he had dandruff like flakes too.  He didn't have lice or mites (I've dealt with both before).  I gave him copper and he's looking a whole lot better.  Coats looking shinier and less brittle.  It'll probably take another dose (I plan on doing it again in 4-6 months) before he's back to 100% better coat wise...but it was obvious that the copper made a world of difference.

And he too was one that blew through the minerals.


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## Roll farms (Jan 31, 2011)

You could have the vet do a skin scraping of the flaky areas and see if they have creepy crawlies...they check w/ a microscope.

It's not SUPER accurate, but I had our vet do a blood draw last year when we did our CAE testing and asked them to check selenium and copper.  
It was Purdue U that checked everything.

The doe I'd been supplementing like mad was actually showing high copper levels, the other doe's levels tested ok.

(I only checked the copper / selenium levels of the 'worst' looking and the 'best' looking two does, figuring that would give me a range to judge.  It worked.)


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## blue lotus (Jan 31, 2011)

Having just been dealing with the exact same issue ourselves, we are treating with Cylence and a copper bolus.  

I think for us it is a twofold issue of being somewhat deficient (some of the goats we got recently appear to have been malnourished in the past), as well as having lice (yuck!). We ended up brushing one of our goats who had a beautiful coat until very recently with a wire brush over a glass plate. We were able to see the bugs that were dislodged, so could compare them to photos online.

Hopefully it clears up quickly!


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

CLEAN FECALS 

I would avoid the ivermec since you don't NEED it.  The CyLence or even Sevin dust should get the creepies, if you have them.

My own personal experience was pure shock and awe as far as hair and skin condition after copper bolusing.  Even my more wirehaired Mini Silkie became soft and smooth after her 1st bolus.  That first year of finally getting a good copper and selenium program was eye opening, for SURE.  

Not just coat condition, but my harder keepers became fat and slick on less feed, and I had less trouble controlling worms.

I tend to say all over the US, copper is low.  As is selenium...and vets aren't going to tell you to bolus because they just don't know enough about it, and don't want to be held accountable if it goes badly.


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks.  I picked up Sevin so I'm going to dust the area heavily and rub some in on them too.  I'll save using the ivermectin for when it's really necessary.  

I'm so stinkin' nervous about the copper thing so I think I'm going to use it but I'm going to go very s-l-o-w-l-y.  I'll start with just a half dose, or maybe even a quarter and see how they do.  I'm a wuss, I know.  My theory is, since the copper leeches out slowly, even a small dose should help.  A person would just have to dose more often, right?  I'm hoping with them scarfing down the minerals lately they may do a little catching up on their own.

I put more thought into my goats anymore than I do my kids.  I think my kids are enjoying the break!


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## elevan (Feb 1, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I put more thought into my goats anymore than I do my kids.  *I think my kids are enjoying the break!*


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## cmjust0 (Feb 1, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Thanks.  I picked up Sevin so I'm going to dust the area heavily and rub some in on them too.  I'll save using the ivermectin for when it's really necessary.
> 
> I'm so stinkin' nervous about the copper thing so I think I'm going to use it but I'm going to go very s-l-o-w-l-y.  I'll start with just a half dose, or maybe even a quarter and see how they do.  I'm a wuss, I know.  My theory is, since the copper leeches out slowly, even a small dose should help.  A person would just have to dose more often, right?  I'm hoping with them scarfing down the minerals lately they may do a little catching up on their own.
> 
> I put more thought into my goats anymore than I do my kids.  I think my kids are enjoying the break!


I know several people who use entire calf boluses on any goat big enough to swallow them, and one of those people have been known to substitute a tobacco stick for a bolus gun.

I'm not saying that COWP isn't dangerous, but I've come to believe that it's not *NEARLY* as dangerous as people tend to believe it is.

They copper bolus _sheep_ for barberpole worms.  SHEEP.  That alone should tell you something.


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## helmstead (Feb 1, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I know several people who use entire calf boluses on any goat big enough to swallow them, and one of those people have been known to substitute a tobacco stick for a bolus gun.
> 
> I'm not saying that COWP isn't dangerous, but I've come to believe that it's not *NEARLY* as dangerous as people tend to believe it is.
> 
> They copper bolus _sheep_ for barberpole worms.  SHEEP.  That alone should tell you something.




Doing a partial dose isn't likely to do you any good.


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## glenolam (Feb 1, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I'm so stinkin' nervous about the copper thing so I think I'm going to use it but I'm going to go very s-l-o-w-l-y.  I'll start with just a half dose, or maybe even a quarter and see how they do.  I'm a wuss, I know.














Just Joking!  But I agree - half dosing isn't worth it.  The entire bottle of copasure is about $35 and will last FOREVER for those of us with a very small amount of goats.  Just imagine if you wuss out and only give partial doses... you might end up wasting the whole bottle because it takes you too long to use it all!

WO-MAN up and give them full doses!  The method of pouring the rods into a syringe and capping it with a paste worked great for me - and the goats willingly took it.  The one goat that really needed it is showing great improvement after 3 weeks - I think you'll be surprised at how much they can actually handle.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 1, 2011)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Just Joking!  But I agree - half dosing isn't worth it.  The entire bottle of copasure is about $35 and will last FOREVER for those of us with a very small amount of goats.  Just imagine if you wuss out and only give partial doses... you might end up wasting the whole bottle because it takes you too long to use it all!


I know there's an expiration on the jar of boluses, but the copper in the rods kinda sorta probably existed for a few MILLION years in the ground before someone mined it out and used it to make COWP..  Having said that, I never understood why they put an expiration on COWP to begin with, but I suspect it's got something to do with either A) being forced to do so because it's considered medication, or B) doing so to try to sell more of it..

Either way, I don't buy the expiration on copper boluses.



> WO-MAN up and give them full doses!  The method of pouring the rods into a syringe and capping it with a paste worked great for me - and the goats willingly took it.  The one goat that really needed it is showing great improvement after 3 weeks - I think you'll be surprised at how much they can actually handle.


I tried mashing them up in a banana once.  That didn't go over so well.  

Expand on your method, pleez.


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## elevan (Feb 1, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Expand on your method, pleez.


From this post:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=7238&p=3



> I don't fuss with capsules.
> I do 1 cc per 60 lbs...cut off the tip of a luer slip syringe, pull the plunger down to where I need it for that goat, pour in the rods right out of the capsule, cap the open end of the syringe with probios paste...and shoot it into the back of their mouths


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## glenolam (Feb 1, 2011)

What she said


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Feb 2, 2011)

The only way to truly know if your copper levels are high enough is to do a liver biopsy of an adult goat, which you can only do if they die. 

That said, goats can take some really high copper levels, and you have to remember, the copper in the bolus doesn't enter their system all at once. It absorbs into their systems over time.

The difference in our goats after we started copper bolusing was tremendous.


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