# I hate cheaters!!



## swiss.susan (Jul 21, 2012)

We took our steers in to the county fair yesterday and I noticed a holstein feeder there, correction, it's a maine cross I know it is.  Now I didn' t bring any feeders this year so I'm not just being a poor sport.  I hate it when people cheat!  That is a dairy barn and why is 4-H so important to parents?  If winning is so important they need to take thier butts to an open show where a win means something.  I was talking to the dad ( yes, civily) and he asked me if I thought he would make weight to be in the feeder steer class.  I said I would be more worried about trying to pass off a maine cross than I would about weight and he thought it hysterically funny.  No denials.  The show is tomorrow, can't wait to see if it fly's.


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## manybirds (Jul 21, 2012)

swiss.susan said:
			
		

> We took our steers in to the county fair yesterday and I noticed a holstein feeder there, correction, it's a maine cross I know it is.  Now I didn' t bring any feeders this year so I'm not just being a poor sport.  I hate it when people cheat!  That is a dairy barn and why is 4-H so important to parents?  If winning is so important they need to take thier butts to an open show where a win means something.  I was talking to the dad ( yes, civily) and he asked me if I thought he would make weight to be in the feeder steer class.  I said I would be more worried about trying to pass off a maine cross than I would about weight and he thought it hysterically funny.  No denials.  The show is tomorrow, can't wait to see if it fly's.


so its a maine/holstein cross? if its part dairy and its a good judge it probably won't fly at least. if its feeder dson't that mean they market it off? i feel bad for the person who bids on it and spends there money on it only to find its more bone and less meat than they wanted.


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## goodhors (Jul 21, 2012)

Our 4-H Market animals were weighed as they arrived.  Weight is posted on 
the sign over their heads.  So if the Prospect Beef, 500# and under (feeders), doesn't 
make weight, the kid knows before his animal gets stalled.  Steers have to start weight  
at 900# or you can't sell at Auction.  Beef breeds have a lower weight to start than
the Dairy breeds of steers.  If the feeder size animal is over the 500#, they 
can show, but not sell it at the Auction.  There are often some VERY SMALL animals
in the Prospect Beef classes, which can be fine with small children showing them and
managing them well.  Kids are not required to sell the small ones if they don't want to.

Breed doesn't really matter, all our 4-H classes are shown as a Beef or Dairy animal, 
then by weight.  Crossbred could go either way, exhibitor chooses.  Not really possible
to "cheat".  Cattle Board might come up with a request to change, if something quite 
obvious was going on.

This particular Fair is 4-H or FFA, kids are 19yrs and under.  No open classes for anything.
Space is limited, not really any room for expansion.  I think they get about 200 head of cattle
in to show, with Prospect, Steers and Dairy animals.  Horses usually have about 150 showing.
Very nice and friendly Fair, which we have enjoyed over daughter's 4-H career.

Everything in showing depends on your local Fair Rules.  If breed or crosses show in 
their own classes, get mixed together depends on the rules.   Having shown at various 
Fairs myself, it does seem like a LOT of Fair rules are made to prevent certain behaviour, 
favor others.  They were written AFTER someone made other folks angry, so they didn't want it to 
happen again!  Exhibitors NEED to read the Fairbook, get ALL the details spelled out
clearly for understanding.    

Unwritten rules can't be enforced, though good Sportsmanship type things are "expected" of 
people.  Part of the 4-H way of doing things for good experience and learning.  Everyone 
can't get first, which is a big lesson to learn for a kid.  Sometimes hard work will pay off, the 
practice and preparing an animal can get you first in Showmanship, even if you don't win
the Steer or Dairy cow class.  Our various 4-H Leaders were a huge help in daughter learning
the correct way to show various species and do well.  Very encouraging to all the kids, who were
willing to put in the practice needed in working with their animals.  You can TELL BY LOOKING who
has done their homework over summer, by how well the animal responds in a strange place,
ring conditions that are upsetting.


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## kfacres (Jul 21, 2012)

does it say that you must be purebred dairy.


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## swiss.susan (Jul 21, 2012)

yes, we have two separate barns, one dairy and one beef.  They don't show together or even on the same day.  All steers in the dairy barn must be 100% dairy.  Our weight rules are also different, 750# and under is a feeder and they are allowed in the auction.


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## kfacres (Jul 22, 2012)

swiss.susan said:
			
		

> yes, we have two separate barns, one dairy and one beef.  They don't show together or even on the same day.  All steers in the dairy barn must be 100% dairy.  Our weight rules are also different, 750# and under is a feeder and they are allowed in the auction.


does it state that in the rule book?  Can you post a copy of that rule book, in all my days of showing, and in the 40 some odd county fairs that I used to attend to show at in a summer-- I don't ever remember seeing it stated that they must be purebred.. and I read every fair book cover to cover almost.


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## swiss.susan (Jul 22, 2012)

sure can, I will do it as soon as I locate one.  It does't say purebred tho, it says it must be 100% dairy.  Can be a cross between any dairy breed.  So your dairy beef show allows beef breeds, or beef crossbreds??  Now that's something I'v never seen, otherwise it wouldn't be a dairy beef show


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## swiss.susan (Jul 22, 2012)

You showed in 40 counties??  Here in Indiana, you can only show in one for 4'H.  It doesn't have to be the one you live in, but it can only be one.


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## swiss.susan (Jul 22, 2012)

go to this website   www.in.gov/statefair/fair/contests/files/dept403(r2).pdf



This is the Indiana State fair rule book.  Says for both market and feeders, must be 100% dairy blood.  I never said purebred.


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## kfacres (Jul 22, 2012)

I showed in the 4H show in three counties.  In IL, you can join, belong, and show in as many counties as you want- as long as you follow their rules-- which usually means attending a certain number of meetings each year.  You can only collect premium money in one county though.  Matter of fact, I was also on the Federation in two counties. ( I would be willing to bet money that IN is the same way). I also showed at three state fairs each summer (IL, IN, IA), plus two national shows (Louisville and the All American).  Not to mention, hitting and consigning to 4 or 5 show/ sales each year as well.  

In my prime of showing, I would hit 30 county fairs a summer, and show in the open and junior shows both of multiple species usually.  The fair books always had open, junior, and 4H in them-- so I would read each county's just to see what all was going on there, to help make my county better as they all respected my opinions since I traveled quite a bit more than anyone else.  At many of these counties, I would also get roped into helping show for the many friends I had.  The rules stated that someone of age had to be in the ring-- and so I was one of the only other people there, not showing myself, or of age.  We always traded favors quite a bit.  I at the time, was getting paid working and trimming for people outside of IL at state and National shows pretty regularly, so you could say I was a professional-- in a 4H'ers body age group.  

During, and after i graduated college from being on the judging team, I also began judging many county fairs and officiating judging contests...  I then became a supt. at our county fair, until my job forced me to relocate.

So, yes you could say I've been to a few county fairs.

PS, the link you provided me with- is from IN State Fair, not your county fair.  Even though most county fairs choose to follow the rules set forth- most do not actually state such is a rule-- it's more hearsay... and as has already been stated above- you cannot enforce a rule that is not stated in writing.  

In our county fair, we have a dairy bottle bull calf class- must weigh under 200 pounds or so, don't remember exactly what the weight is.  All feeder calves have to show against each other, regardless of breed- beef or dairy.  A feeder calf at our fair is anything under 800 pounds.   We do not have a separate division for dairy fat steers either.  Now, with that said, I have been to plenty of fairs that show the dairy and the beef steers separately- which is probably the right way to do it.  I have never seen anywhere state that the dairy steers must be 100% dairy blood, nor have I seen anywhere state the same for beef steers.  It's a vocal rule-- something not in writing which cannot be expressed.  

if someone had a dairy/ beef steer-- which many do-- my family for one-- since we breed all of our dairy heifers to Red Angus bulls-- then what do they show in?  Can't show dairy, can't show beef, so discriminant against them and tell them they can't show?  It's just as 'unfair' as you say it to show in the dairy, as it would be in the beef?


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## swiss.susan (Jul 22, 2012)

LOl well i can also post our local fair rules, just didn't have them handy.  We do follow the state fair rules in that regard, all dairy steers must be 100% dairy blood.  I have never shown or been involved in the beef barn so I don't know if they allow dairy/beef crosses in thier crossbred show, but if they did I don't know why someone would want to compete against beef breeds with a cross dairy breed.  I really don' t know what Illinois does, but I do know that in our little barn, bringing a maine/holstein cross is cheating and breaking the rules.  It sends a bad message to the 4-Hers and creates bad feelings all around.  

It did fly today and was the CH feeder steer.  Like I stated in my original post, I wasn't being a bad sport or a sore loser, all we brought were fats.    On a brighter note, my son had the CH Brown Swiss and the overall GCH dairy steer today  

I don't understand why you are so quick to prove me wrong.  You have no idea what is acceptable in our county, but I live here, did my 10 years plus i'm on an additional 12 with my children.  I was the barn superintendent and club leader.  I DO know what is acceptable in our county.  I understand if you are trying to point out simply that other counties have other rules, that I concede to, but it seems as though you have jumped up on a soapbox and are desperate for me to understand what is or isn't cheating. At my county fair...lol.   Either way, I still hate cheating.


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## Symphony (Jul 22, 2012)

At our state fair a few years back someone tried to cheat but they were caught.  We use nose prints now.


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## kfacres (Jul 22, 2012)

swiss.susan said:
			
		

> LOl well i can also post our local fair rules, just didn't have them handy.  We do follow the state fair rules in that regard, all dairy steers must be 100% dairy blood.  I have never shown or been involved in the beef barn so I don't know if they allow dairy/beef crosses in thier crossbred show, but if they did I don't know why someone would want to compete against beef breeds with a cross dairy breed.  I really don' t know what Illinois does, but I do know that in our little barn, bringing a maine/holstein cross is cheating and breaking the rules.  It sends a bad message to the 4-Hers and creates bad feelings all around.
> 
> It did fly today and was the CH feeder steer.  Like I stated in my original post, I wasn't being a bad sport or a sore loser, all we brought were fats.    On a brighter note, my son had the CH Brown Swiss and the overall GCH dairy steer today
> 
> I don't understand why you are so quick to prove me wrong.  You have no idea what is acceptable in our county, but I live here, did my 10 years plus i'm on an additional 12 with my children.  I was the barn superintendent and club leader.  I DO know what is acceptable in our county.  I understand if you are trying to point out simply that other counties have other rules, that I concede to, but it seems as though you have jumped up on a soapbox and are desperate for me to understand what is or isn't cheating. At my county fair...lol.   Either way, I still hate cheating.


just pointing out that not all counties are the same, not all counties fall the same rules, most counties don't even have 'written' rules.

Seems to me this person won what they were after- champion feeder steer today..  Either you'll change the rules for them next year, or they'll be back with champion fat steer.  

I can't say that I would blame them, if it's not in the rule book- how can you enforce it.  

Can you post a picture of this cheater calf?  I'm thinking it must be interested to get you all worked up.  

On a side note, i was actually a 'real' 4H member for 11 years.  My DOB is Sept- and when I joined you had to be 8 by Jan 1-- which I was.. then in the middle of my time in 4H they changed the rule to 18 by Sept 1.. which I was not... landed me an extra year of eligibility-- which only worked for a year or two on either side of my age.


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## redtailgal (Jul 22, 2012)

It's like that in our county fair......dairy class must be 100% dairy breed.  It's considered cheating to breed beef blood into the diary line because it's added weight onto that steer.  They would have been disqualified if they'd been caught here, and if there was any doubt to the dairy-ness of the steer in question, they simply wouldnt have placed at all.

I dont show, not interested in it, but I've helped with a few shows, it's considered VERY poor sportsmanship to try to do that, and those that try usually only try once.  It really is just bad sportmanship.  Anything that goes against the rules is cheating, esp if it offers an unfair advantage over those who have followed the rules and put forth the effort to win appropriately.

I dont blame you one bit for being irritated.


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## kfacres (Jul 22, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> It's like that in our county fair......dairy class must be 100% dairy breed.  It's considered cheating *to breed beef blood into the diary line because it's added weight onto that steer.*  They would have been disqualified if they'd been caught here, and if there was any doubt to the dairy-ness of the steer in question, they simply wouldnt have placed at all.
> 
> I dont show, not interested in it, but I've helped with a few shows, it's considered VERY poor sportsmanship to try to do that, and those that try usually only try once.  It really is just bad sportmanship.  Anything that goes against the rules is cheating, esp if it offers an unfair advantage over those who have followed the rules and put forth the effort to win appropriately.
> 
> I dont blame you one bit for being irritated.


what if it's NOT in the rule book that the steer must be 100% dairy.

Kinda like it doesn't say in the rule book that you must enter the show ring with a halter on your animal.  It's just a logical method.. However, one year in 4H, I 'led' a jersey heifer into the showmanship ring with nothing on but her birthday suit.. needless to say, i got quite the look with no halter on.

Are you saying, I was cheating?  If it does not say you can or cannot have this or that-- again, it's not breaking the rule.

One more question to the *BOLDED* part above-- do people not show feeder and market animals based on weight?  If the  Holstein/ Maine cross weights 725, should be not fall into the same class as one who weighs 730?  

Let's see how good you rule enforcers are.  Pick out the dairy influenced, straight dairy, and straight beef bred animals.  










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we'll see how you do on this one before I post the next round of pics...


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## Royd Wood (Jul 22, 2012)

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## redtailgal (Jul 22, 2012)

I guess each county has different rules, but around here if someone were to intentionally walk into the arena with an unrestrained animal, they and their animal would be promptly removed and probably not invited back.  We would consider that a pretty serious safety violation.

It does state clearly that animals must be restrained at all times, as well as the restrictions on what is show-able in each class.  Most of the 4-h k folks are further limited because sportsmanship is a MAJOR issue with our local 4h groups.

As for your pics, I am not a judge and never claimed to be, so I see no point in trying to do anything with it.

We just have differing opinions, and that's ok.  I do agree with the OP.  Even if something is not written out in plain black and white, there are just some things that display poor sportsmanship.


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## kfacres (Jul 22, 2012)

My point of taking a heifer in the ring without a halter on-- was to prove I had worked with my animals- and could control them-- even without a halter.  i won showmanship, but then again, i was the only kid in my age break.

Here's more picture, that didn't get attached to the last one.  













The point of the pictures, is that you cannot tell me which one is pure dairy, pure beef, and half n half.  Nobody but me knows that, and so to describable against someone for thinking, or knowing you what you do.. Is crazy talk.  Doesn't matter if you are a judge or not-- b/c you are judging someone for having a non- dairy, or partial dairy animal in a dairy class.  I'm simplify asking you to pick from these pictures, which animal belongs and which does not.  Visually, it is nearly impossible to tell.  

Matter of fact, I have sold some very competitive club calves- that were 1/4 dairy... and have some recip cows on the place that are half.  

You seem to want to talk about enforcing the rules, but nobody has posted their direct rules yet that clearly state that non- 100 percent dairy animals are not allowed in the dairy division.  

case in point.


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## HankTheTank (Jul 22, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Even if something is not written out in plain black and white, there are just some things that display poor sportsmanship.


kfacres- ^^That is the point of this. Some things should go without saying..
I am not a cow expert by any means, but I think it would be wrong to show an animal that wasn't technically dairy, in a dairy class.


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## swiss.susan (Jul 23, 2012)

If you have a holstein with all 4 feet black, you can just about bet there it isn't 100% dairy.  And it IS in the rule book.  Putnam County 4-H fairbook, all dairy steers must be 100% dairly blood.  

If I breed a swiss heifer to an angus, there are dead giveaway's on the calf to tell of it.  They are always, always born with some white on the underside of the belly, usually under the arm.  So you can tell crosses if you know what to look for.  

If you google putnam county Indiana 4-H fair handbook you can find on page 33 where it is written that all steers must be 100% dairy blood.

I am also not an expert by any means but when something jumps out at you...lol well that doesn't take an expert.


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## kfacres (Jul 23, 2012)

If there are dead give away-- what are they?  You mention Swiss/ Angus cross having white under the belly.. I call natta on that.. For many years, we bred a huge percentage of our Holstein cows to Swiss bulls, and got solid coal black calves-- matter of fact, when we took the bulls to the sale barn, we called and sold them as Angus.  

Back to my pictures posted-- which ones are pure dairy, half dairy, and pure beef/  You can't tell.  

To throw another wrench into the socket-- what do you do about dual registered animals?  Animals that are registered as both beef and dairy, but still purebred?

Here's another couple of pictures.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 23, 2012)

I feel your pain...when people enter a competition with a deception, it cheapens it for everyone whether they win or not.  You don't need to defend that to those that just want to brag on themselves instead of offering friendly advice.  This, after all, is NOT a competition but good sportsmanship should still apply.


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## Cricket (Jul 23, 2012)

I guess if nothing else it will serve as an illustration to the kids of the kind of person they don't want to be.  Maybe 4H will teach that man's child the importance of respect and fairness and save the world from yet another egotistical buffoon.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 23, 2012)

There will always be cheaters, and it's especially sad when it's for 4-H.  Parents get so whacked out about their kid having the best of the best, that they will stretch, bend, and break rules.  Pretty sad when an adult has to show kids it's ok to lie and cheat in order to win a ribbon. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.   Heck, even some breeders out there will crossbreed their animals and lie on registration papers saying it's a purebred.  That's how some breeders have to operate to try to get the "winning" animals.  Not sure how they can live with themselves...must be awful knowing that's what kind of person you are.  

I'd rather my kids show ethically, and not win, than lie and win.  What does that teach them?  Nothing.


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## kfacres (Jul 23, 2012)

I see everyone is still on the cheating rant-- however, few have actually proven that what this person did was cheating, or other similar circumstances.  I live a whole state away from this place as posted by the O.P., and I do not doubt one bit that the calf is question was probably crossbred with a club calf type animal...  I do not have an connection with the ordeal, nor do I really care.  

but the fact remains, nobody has yet to explain to me what you do with dual purpose, dual registered animals, and I've yet to read anyone having the knowledge to point out in my pictures above-- which animals are which by the naked eye.  

So, I guess my point is, everyone is going to gripe and complain about cheaters, yet nobody can prove anything about cheating, nor can they actually implant the rules to deal with it.  

So, what good does it do to get on here and complain?


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 23, 2012)

People can complain if they want to.  Just like you have the right to go in an pick apart people's threads if you want to.   My advice, if you want to do something besides complain, would be to talk with the fair board and ask that the rules be chanced to allow crossbred animals.  If they won't change the rules, then those with crossbred animals won't be able to show at the fair, or they'll have to get purebred (or pure dairy, whatever) animals to show in the fair.  Just like some kids can't show if their animals don't make weight, others won't be able to show because they did not follow the rules about what animals can  be shown.


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## redtailgal (Jul 23, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> There will always be cheaters, and it's especially sad when it's for 4-H.  Parents get so whacked out about their kid having the best of the best, that they will stretch, bend, and break rules.  Pretty sad when an adult has to show kids it's ok to lie and cheat in order to win a ribbon. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.   Heck, even some breeders out there will crossbreed their animals and lie on registration papers saying it's a purebred.  That's how some breeders have to operate to try to get the "winning" animals.  Not sure how they can live with themselves...must be awful knowing that's what kind of person you are.
> 
> I'd rather my kids show ethically, and not win, than lie and win.  What does that teach them?  Nothing.


Well said.  The 4h around here has three main goals when it comes to teaching kids to show.......honesty, husbandry and sportsmanship.  They expect the same from the parents.

One of my good friends is an ag extension agent, and a leader in 4h.  She helps kids show goats and calves. She is pretty strict with her kids, requiring them to help one another, even if they are competing against one another.  It's yielded wonderful results from the kids, even the teens.  If another child defeats them, they can still take some pride in the winning critter, because they helped the winning handler.  LOL, last year there were three of "her kids" competing against one another in one of the show classes.  When the 1st place winner was announced, the spectators were a little confused because ALL THREE of the kids (the other two didnt even place) were happy and clapping as thought they had won themselves.  They were all so happy that the audience needed a minute to figure out which one had actually won.  It was DELIGHTFUL.  

On the other hand, she had someone several years back who tried to "bend" the rules.  She reported them to the judges, and not only were they disqualified, but the teen competitor and his parents were escorted off the premises.  

I wish that all 4h clubs would be as strict.


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## kfacres (Jul 23, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> People can complain if they want to.  Just like you have the right to go in an pick apart people's threads if you want to.   My advice, if you want to do something besides complain, would be to talk with the fair board and ask that the rules be chanced to allow crossbred animals.  If they won't change the rules, then those with crossbred animals won't be able to show at the fair, or they'll have to get purebred (or pure dairy, whatever) animals to show in the fair.  Just like some kids can't show if their animals don't make weight, others won't be able to show because they did not follow the rules about what animals can  be shown.


so you recommend that 4H DQ kids with crossbred animals?  What good will that do, since the basis of a good percentage of the nation's livestock herds are built upon crossbred genetics?  Is that discrimination?  

I'm not picking apart any thread, just helping everyone look at it from another angle.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 23, 2012)

kfacres said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I recommend kids (or parents with kids) with crossbred animals try to get their local fair rules changed so they can show.  If the board won't change the rules, then I guess the kids can't show.  This is silly anyways, since those kids with dairy/meat cross animals usually KNOW they're going to be at a disadvantage when showing in a meat class (which is USUALLY all meat breeds). This is a little tricky in this case, because it's a dairy beef class. IMO, the kid with the dairy/maine cross needs to show the animal in the non-dairy meat class.  

And it's not discrimination is the rules are clearly posted. If kids/parents can't follow the rules, they'll learn better for next year I guess.  

Once, when I was about 22 or so (so out of 4-H at the time), I brought my commercial ewes to the county fair. I was new to the county, so it was my first time showing at the fair.  I got there and checked in, and they asked for the registration papers for my entries. I told them only 2 of my 6 or 7 animals were purebred and registered.  They told me they did not have any classes for any crossbred animals.  I was pretty bummed out, but those were the rules.  The judge overheard them telling me this, and she said she usually judges crossbred classes too, so I was allowed to enter in a "new" crossbred category they created just for me that year. Now this fair allows crossbreds.  I'd never heard of a fair having purebred ONLY shows, so it was news to me when they told me.    I didn't create a stink when they first told me it was purebred only, and I was prepared to show only my purebred animals, but I was really happy when they made an exception.  Sometimes all you have to do is ask.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 23, 2012)

kfacres said:
			
		

> If there are dead give away-- what are they?  *You mention Swiss/ Angus cross having white under the belly.. I call natta on that.*. For many years, we bred a huge percentage of our Holstein cows to Swiss bulls, and got solid coal black calves-- matter of fact, when we took the bulls to the sale barn, we called and sold them as Angus.


I doubt that's what she was referring to, from the way I read it.  She was stating about how all PB Swiss are always born with the white or cream under their belly and under the fore- and hindlegs, and that it's a dead give away that they don't if they're an Angus-Swiss cross, which is the example she used and which come out a solid colour being Black.

That's all I have to contribute to this thread.


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## kfacres (Jul 23, 2012)

Back to the OP..

After this year's stunt.. I wouldn't be suprised of a "Milking Shorthorn" steer shows up at your fair next year and sweeps show.  And then it wouldn't shock me to see the entire dairy show switch to "milking Shorthorns", and the kids with real dairy animals get tired of getting beat by the beef steers in a dairy class- and they'll all quit-- and pretty soon you won't have a dairy steer show anymore.

Won't be anyways for you to kick out the "milking shorthorns' either...


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## kfacres (Jul 24, 2012)




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## elevan (Jul 24, 2012)

This thread has run it's course.  Thank you for participating.


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