# hay mix



## mdoerge (Sep 17, 2009)

This is my 2nd year with goats and I am breeding my two Nigerian does this fall.  I have always just bought a grass mix hay, but have located a farmer with a second cutting alfalfa, orchard grass, timothy mix.  I know the alfalfa and orchard grass are good for the goats, but what about timothy?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 17, 2009)

timothy should be fine. My hay has some timothy in it.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 18, 2009)

Yep, timothy is okay.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 18, 2009)

Our goats love timothy.


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## kimmyh (Sep 18, 2009)

The mix is fine, straight alfalfa is better.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 18, 2009)

Straight alfalfa, if it's good, can be as high as the lower-mid 20's in terms of protein percentage, and the Ca ratio is about 6:1.  If you mix in some quality grass hay in the right proportions, it brings the protein down into that seemingly magical 16% range and throws quite a bit of phosphorus in to get the Ca ratio down to around 2 or 3:1...right where you want it.

Alfalfa/grass mix is also typically a fair bit cheaper than straight alfalfa.

That's just my opinion, though.


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## kimmyh (Sep 18, 2009)

cmjust0 I have tried the route you are recommending, and here on my farm it killed 2 goats before I figured out the problem and went to straight alfalfa. Since then, no problems. Grass hay does not have enough calcium to support good fetal growth (IMO) and if you check the links I posted in another thread about this exact same subject, you will see my reasoning.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 18, 2009)

kimmy said:
			
		

> cmjust0 I have tried the route you are recommending, and here on my farm it killed 2 goats before I figured out the problem and went to straight alfalfa.


So...what did you determine to have been the problem, exactly?

I would go check whatever other thread you're talking about, but there are a few thousand threads here..


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## kimmyh (Sep 18, 2009)

Because I feed grain, using grass/oat hay for one feeding threw the cal to phos numbers out of wack. Since I threw away all of the other types of hay, I have not had a UC problem. Unfortunately, I still hear of others who are not feeding straight alfalfa, some people get away with it for a few years, and then wham, a dead buck/wether.

Feedablity/protein values http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/33/4/228.pdf

Calcium values http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_calcium.html

Also, when I researched clover in hay, the recommendations I saw were for cattle, as clover is hard to dry, and goats are less able to handle the fermenting clover.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Because I feed grain, using grass/oat hay for one feeding threw the cal to phos numbers out of wack. Since I threw away all of the other types of hay, I have not had a UC problem. Unfortunately, I still hear of others who are not feeding straight alfalfa, some people get away with it for a few years, and then wham, a dead buck/wether.


But we were talking about alfalfa/grass mix hay -- not straight grass..  Weren't we?

I was, anyway..

A decent 50/50 alfalfa/grass mix hay should be right in that 2 or 2.5:1 Ca range.  Not sure how feeing a good alfalfa mix could throw off a Ca ratio when it carries the correct ratio itself...





			
				kh said:
			
		

> Also, when I researched clover in hay, the recommendations I saw were for cattle, as clover is hard to dry, and goats are less able to handle the fermenting clover.


I don't feed fermenting _anything_ to my goats.  The grass/clover I've been getting -- and have always gotten, frankly -- is always nice and dry.


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## kimmyh (Sep 21, 2009)

I have never seen cal to phos balanced in a grass/alfalfa mix, do you have any sites that show those numbers? I have only seen numbers that show alfalfa with grass that having reduced cal. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I have not seen any numbers from university/growers that support that position.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2009)

It does indeed reduce the calcium...but from 6:1 or thereabout, downward.  Starting that high in calcium, it takes a lot of phosphorus to go below the 2:1 target.  Given that alfalfa is so high in calcium, mixing it with grass -- which is usually heavy on P and low on Ca -- should simply work to balance it out.

I already wrote it up somewhere on this forum...lemme find it.

ETA:  Here it is , post #19.

I'd also add that, in my experience, goats do have a tendency to cherry pick the alfalfa out of even the best of grass-mix hay, so you may even wind up with a higher alfalfa intake than the ratio of the bale would be expected to provide _on paper_..  In other words, a bale that's maybe 40/60, alfalfa/grass could provide closer to 50/50 of 80% _by weight_, because they waste 20% of the bale in 100% grass..

If that makes sense..

I can't back that up scientifically or anything...just personal experience with lots of grass being thrown out of feeders so they can get at the alfalfa.


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## kimmyh (Sep 21, 2009)

If this is the link you are talking about (there were many in that thread)_ interesting write-up on Ca_ it is written by an individual, and while their info may be worthy, I don't tend to believe things I read on a web site, I need university or grower statistics.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> If this is the link you are talking about (there were many in that thread)_ interesting write-up on Ca_ it is written by an individual, and while their info may be worthy, I don't tend to believe things I read on a web site, I need university or grower statistics.


All I really used from the link were the nutritional values.  Everything I'd seen listed alfalfa's Ca ratio to be about 6:1 or higher and most grasses around 1:1 or lower...I guess I didn't really feel it necessary to question it, given how many times I'd seen the same basic numbers in different places.

Beyond that, once the numbers are established, figuring out the ratio of a mix is really just a matter of doing the math..  There's really nothing to be believed or disbelieved at that point, near as I can tell.  I mean, numbers don't lie, unless of course my math was incorrect..?

As for those numbers, here are a couple of links to back up what was in the original post....

Here's one link showing high Ca, low P on alfalfa from the University of Kentucky....table 1, page 2.  Looks to be about 6:1..  

Here's another one , also from UK, showing Ca values on Alfalfa and various grasses...table 1, page 1.  Note that all the grasses are just about 1:1..

So, like I said, I did the math as best I could..  To me, it also just makes sense that if you combine a 6:1 with a 1:1, you're going to get something around 3:1...

Help me out if I'm doing something wrong here, because for the life of me....it looks right.


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## kimmyh (Sep 21, 2009)

Okay so the first one comes up as 

Alfalfa Hayb Cal 1.28  phos 0.21 for *Kentucky hay*, the article is centered around alfalfa cubes. Most grains are not balanced, mine sure isn't, so we have to factor that in, with phos likely to be a lot closer than 2:1. If we further diminsh the cal by adding grass, our numbers are becoming a concern, unless we add cal from another source. Or am I confused?

The second one is 9.5-1.5 cal to .2-.35 phos, I find these numbers kind of useless. Its like saying the hay has .35-.50 arsenic,


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## ksalvagno (Sep 21, 2009)

Wouldn't you really have to have your own hay, grass, grain, minerals and water tested to find out if everything you are giving them is balancing out right if you truly wanted to make sure the calcium phosphorus was correct for your animals?


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## kimmyh (Sep 21, 2009)

Yes, you need the hay you are feeding analyzed. Hay grown from different parts of the country and different times of the year will test all over the place, and grains are produced across the nation, so while they bag gives you relative values, it does not have to be exact. Goats can have 3-4x cal to phos and be fine, but change that to 1-1 cal to phos and you are in big trouble.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Okay so the first one comes up as
> 
> Alfalfa Hayb Cal 1.28  phos 0.21 for *Kentucky hay*, the article is centered around alfalfa cubes.


It's not just for Kentucky hay.  If you look below the table, you'll see the following footnote for the superscript 'b' you quoted as "Hayb" above:  "Values for the alfalfa hay are taken from the 1989 Nutrient Requirements for Horses."  

And while the article is indeed about alfalfa cubes, the table itself is simply a comparison between the nutritional value of cubes versus hay and happens to include reputable numbers for alfalfa hay.  That's why I linked to it.



			
				kimmyh said:
			
		

> Most grains are not balanced, mine sure isn't, so we have to factor that in, with phos likely to be a lot closer than 2:1.


Actually, mine's balanced 2:1, Ca.  Most goat-labeled grain products are, in my experieince.  I don't think I've actually ever seen one that _isn't_.



			
				kimmyh said:
			
		

> If we further diminsh the cal by adding grass, our numbers are becoming a concern, unless we add cal from another source. Or am I confused?


That depends..  If your grain isn't balanced for goats, then...yeah, you're right to be supplementing all the calcium that comes with straight alfalfa for your particular situation.

Or...you could have switched to a balanced grain and kept the alfalfa mix.  Either thing likely would have worked to help prevent the stones you saw...

Thing is, though...it's very, very important to note -- especially in the context of a thread labeled "hay mix" -- that the stones you saw were more likely due to _unbalanced grain_ than they were to mixed hay, and that you're feeding straight alfalfa hay to counter an unbalanced grain ration.

Had you mentioned that before, you could have saved me a lot of time digging up what I thought were reputable sources for numbers I already knew..  



			
				kimmyh said:
			
		

> The second one is 9.5-1.5 cal to .2-.35 phos, I find these numbers kind of useless. Its like saying the hay has .35-.50 arsenic,


Well..  Ok.  I think I'm done..  

I feel confident that I've gotten across the point that alfalfa can safely be mixed with grass to achieve a proper balance of Ca, and you've countered that's not the case if the supplemental grain ration isn't balanced correctly...  I think most folks will know what to do with that information.

So...good enough.  


edutted fer msipeelings.


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