# Need Counsel...



## AmberRaif (Mar 9, 2019)

Hey, I need some counsel, fast. Situation: A young doe of ours just kidded (first freshening) this morning. This is also my first time assisting a goat birth. She had one doeling, that was breech presentation, both back hooves presented first. There was no further progress for an hour, and contractions slowed, and almost seemed to stop. I went ahead and pulled..baby was big and tight, with head and both front hooves still stuck in birthing canal/(pelvis?) Body was born, cord broke, head was stuck...due to the emergency of the moment I went in for the baby, had to move one hoof at a time out, and finally had to work hard to remove head. Outcome: It took some upside down swinging and such to clear lungs, and at first we were afraid we had lost her, but she started breathing and coughing and seems very healthy now. Both mom and baby doing great. Question: Does mom absolutely need antibiotics because I had to go in so deep? I did not have gloves and had scrubbed up about and hour and half before...but not right before. I don't have access to a livestock vet until Monday, and even then it's iffy.  Is there something I can buy from the feed store? Or a natural option like calloidal silver? Help please!  Mama goat is doing great right now...and I don't want it going downhill.


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## Baymule (Mar 9, 2019)

I haven't had that situation.....yet.
@frustratedearthmother 
@Goat Whisperer 
@goatgurl 
@Sheepshape


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 9, 2019)

I generally don't give antibiotics "just because."   Did she pass the placenta?  If she cleaned out well then you probably are ok.  I would watch her and if she goes off feed or just doesn't seem interested in the baby I'd certainly take her temp.  If elevated, antibiotics might be called for.

But, I also want to mention that if you ever have that situation again where the baby's head is still inside the doe - don't spend time going in for the feet - snatch that baby out of there as fast as you can.  That is one situation where I don't wait for a doe's contractions, I don't fiddle-fart around - I pull that baby.  Not violent about it - but it is an emergency situation because while the head is still within the doe - as soon as that cord breaks the baby tries to breathe.  As you found out - it's a challenge to get them going again.  Congrats on reviving the baby - you did good!


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## AmberRaif (Mar 9, 2019)

Thank you! Yes, she passed placenta, from what I could tell it was in good shape, didn't look like she retained any. Her bleeding levels are low but consistent. She seems very normal, good stools etc. And thank you for the tip! Acnd to clarify...the time that the babies body was born to the time the head was born was definitely less than one minute...more like fifteen to twenty seconds, it just felt soooo long. I started pulling when there was only an inch to two inches of hoof and hock, then body came quickly, then even with hard pulling, nothing else came, felt up inside and there was a hard ring, and the babies head was still inside that ring, and so were both front hooves. But this was all felt and dealt with very very fast....and at that point I was moving legs, and yanking babies head and neck...without contractions. But the head came, it just took some panic. Baby's dad was part Nubian, mama is a little Nigerian Dwarf. Thinking some size discrepancy happened here.


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## rosti (Mar 9, 2019)

Just keep an eye on her, the discharge she passes, and her temp. As long as she's acting fine, discharge isn't stinky, and she doesn't have a fever, you are fine. I haven't had to give antibiotics yet, even in cases just like you described.


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## Carla D (Mar 9, 2019)

I don’t have anything to add other than a huge pat on the back. Great job keeping your head on straight. But most of all congratulations! You have a doe and a strong baby to brag about after all of your hard work.


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## AmberRaif (Mar 9, 2019)

Thank you all so much!


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 9, 2019)

AmberRaif said:


> Thinking some size discrepancy happened here.


I think you're right.  That pic of the two of them resting - baby looks huge!


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## luvmypets (Mar 9, 2019)

Holy wow, no wonder she had trouble that is a big baby for the size of your doe. Props to you for noticing something was wrong and going in to help her. Congrats and enjoy your new addition.


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## ragdollcatlady (Mar 9, 2019)

I second what @frustratedearthmother said. I also don't hesitate to assist with normal births if I happen to be present, but anything out of the ordinary, I move and make it fast. Also, listen to your instincts. More than once, my instincts have been spot on. When I am not comfortable with a goat taking so long to produce another kid or placenta, it is usually because there is something awry. A couple times a placenta looks eminent, but another kid comes instead. Or one kidding this year with a seasoned, fantastic producer. She looked ready for the placenta and was acting done. no kid for probably almost an hour. I wanted so badly to go in the house for a little break, had other urgent situations going on simultaneously, but my gut said something wasn't right. She had another kid that had been taking too long, there was meconium in the sack when the kid was born. Everything turned out OK, but glad I paid attention to my intuition. 

Good job on the delivery, just keep an eye on everyone! Mom and baby look good!


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## AmberRaif (Mar 10, 2019)

She came to us already bred. She had been bred young, about seven months old.  She's about 1 year now. I don't know if some of those circumstances could have effected this outcome...she was still growing as she grew a baby too! I'm just so thankful they are both okay!  And thank you all for the validation that we did the right thing intervening and going in. First timer here with kidding....and instinct kicked in but I was still second guessing if she really needed help or if I was just messing it up and introducing infection.  So thank you much for the confidence boost!


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## Sheepshape (Mar 10, 2019)

Well done for the delivery.....too big to come out unaided, I'm sure. If babies get stuck in the birth canal they will die, and the mother may do so, too.

Breeding early isn't ideal as the baby may be too big to be born (dystocia) and mothering may be less good than an older animal, but most do fine.

Over here we are told always to give antibiotics after assisted delivery, but doe and kid are likely to be fine.

Again....well done.


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## Baymule (Mar 10, 2019)

It looks like your midwife abilities have the official stamp of BYH approval. Well done.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 13, 2019)

Congratulations on pulling and saving the kid!  It is always a frightening thing having to pull a kid even if you are experienced.  Then you actually did the whole swinging and reviving thing!  *Yay AmberRaif!!!
*

 I always gave an antibiotic when having to go into a doe or ewe and rearrange kids/lambs.  This year I did not have to go in deep and did nit give any antibiotics and ewe was fine.  If you don't have anything, don't bother calling out the vet.  Check at the feed store for penicillin.  Feed stores usually carry that and also disposable syringes.  Unless an infection develops I only give 1 injection unless the doe looks pretty beat up.  Then I continue the course of antibiotics for several days.  As long as your hands were scrubbed and disinfected, you are probably ok.  Keep an eye on her, and unless she starts to look off, or there is a bad smell from her vaginal discharge, don't worry.


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