# Cocci prevention..chem free?



## RockyToggRanch (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm not 100% organic...but I try to be as chem free as possible.

I've been reading the warning labels on cocci treatments and it's not something I want to ingest. My milking does are with the kids. My bucklings will possibly end up in my freezer. 

I don't want chemicals in my meat or dairy products.

Are there alternative suppliments that can be used effectively to prevent cocci?

I didn't treat last yr at all and had no problems. I have more goats this yr and know that increases the risk.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 16, 2011)

Supposedly cloves will work.


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## helmstead (Apr 16, 2011)

I don't know because I don't play the organic game - but research anti-protozoal natural therapies (cocci is a protozoan parasite).


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Apr 16, 2011)

I bought a herbal product called GI Sooth from Fir Meadow. I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I am very pleased with the other product of Fir Meadow's that I have used.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 16, 2011)

Cool. Since Im more interested in function than ribbons my family's health comes first. I don't pretend to be organic...if an animal needs meds they'll get it. But I don't want to pump chemicals into them that they don't need and that could potentially cause us problems in the future.

I've lost too many friends to cancer. Just trying to do my part to keep chemicals out of my food when I can. 

I sold garden chemicals for many yrs. I watched many sales reps die from cancer during those yrs. I lost my thyroid during that time and my coworker had serious chemical induced neurological damage. We were also on a "Green team and safety team" at the time...coincidence?


I'm trying to go as chem free as possible. I'm not bashing anyone who uses them...it's a choice.

I'd love to be certified organic...but that's not realistic here.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 16, 2011)

I would think that if you did plan to go without coccidiostats that it would be a good idea to integrate pasture rotation into your plan.  I wouldn't dare attempt to go without coccidiosis prevention without intensive rotation to clean ground.  I've seen references to producers using calf hutches and individual pens (made from cattle panels) and frequent rotation and would imagine it'd go a long way in keeping the soil load at a manageable level where your younger, at risk kids are.


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## Ariel301 (Apr 16, 2011)

Cleanliness and good management could go a long way, but I don't know if it's quite enough. Rotate pastures, clean pens regularly, avoid having areas that stay constantly wet, change bedding often, keep waterers/feeders/minerals from getting contaminated, don't overcrowd areas. 

It isn't an instant fix, but breeding for resistance to cocci and other parasites should be a goal, to minimize the need for chemical treatment. 

Wormwood (Artemisia absinthum) is often used in herbal dewormers. I don't know if it will deal with cocci at all, you could look into it though. If so, that's something you might be able to even grow yourself.


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 17, 2011)

Molly (from Fiascofarm.com, aka Molly's Herbals) has a cocci prevention plan listed that she uses.  It's the regular herbal wormer, but on a three week rotation instead of the normal 6-8 weeks.  I've been using it with the babies.  

She originally used Di-methox and then found she had even more success with the herbals.  My plan is to use the herbals as prevention and keep Di-methox stocked in case we have any issues.  So far so good, though this is just our first season with babies, so I don't have a proven track record.  The dairy I bought the does from didn't use any chemicals and her does have all been very healthy.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 17, 2011)

I looked for di-methox or sulmet today. I found sulmet tablets, no di-methox.

I ended up buying the only bag of Corid they had  left. $23.00

As much as I hate the thought of these chemicals, not only in my animals, but also my compost, I don't want to lose my kids.

I have a 3 wk old who has been "off" for 2 days. No runs or fever, but standing funny and occasionally shaking. I gave him revitalyte in some warm water, lamb & kid paste and nutridrench. I don't think he's nursing, but I did see him nibbling hay. His belly doesn't seem empty though.

Is the corid dosage on the pkg correct or is goat dosage different?

I want to treat all of the kids. I'd prefer not to treat the does. If you all think I should, I will and I'll dump milk for a month:/


I don't feel good about this at all.


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## helmstead (Apr 17, 2011)

RockyToggRanch said:
			
		

> Is the corid dosage on the pkg correct or is goat dosage different?


The dose for liquid CoRid is 2.5 cc per 10 lbs - UNDILUTED straight out of the container...dunno about the powder.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 17, 2011)

That's all they had was the powder. I went to both local feed stores. I'll look up the liquid and try to compare. Thank you.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

I see you have some great replies. I knew a woman down the road here, that ended up with her whole herd having cocci. It's was horrible and she lost some babies. The one thing she could have done to better prevent it, was to keep the water containers and grounds, cleaner. PLUS she let her chickens run loose WITH the goats. They can cause cocci and were fouling the grouns and water. I know alot of people allow their chickens to run loose. It's makes a farm right? Well, they can cause cocci and it's down-right dirty IMO. 

I posted this to help. I sure hope I didn't ruffle anyone's feathers.

Terry


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## Goatherd (Aug 1, 2011)

> PLUS she let her chickens run loose WITH the goats. They can cause cocci and were fouling the grouns and water. I know alot of people allow their chickens to run loose. It's makes a farm right? Well, they can cause cocci and it's down-right dirty IMO.


My goodness, the horror!    No ruffled feathers here.  I do let my chickens, ducks, guineas, geese, pea fowl, and one turkey free range.  They also sleep in the barn WITH the goats.
I guess one man's dirty is another man's not-so-dirty.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> > PLUS she let her chickens run loose WITH the goats. They can cause cocci and were fouling the grounds and water. I know alot of people allow their chickens to run loose. It's makes a farm right? Well, they can cause cocci and it's down-right dirty IMO.
> 
> 
> My goodness, the horror!    No ruffled feathers here.  I do let my chickens, ducks, guineas, geese, pea fowl, and one turkey free range.  They also sleep in the barn WITH the goats.
> I guess one man's dirty is another man's not-so-dirty.


Oh I'm sure your animals are fine, for now. But unless your chickens are house-broken, to go in one spot, their feces can cause stuff. When this woman's animals came down with it, it happend fast & furious! Half her herd died and the others were very sick. She admitted to being too busy to keep things as clean as she should. Not that you aren't, just saying.

Guess I should learn to keep my info to myself. I just joined and am already making non-friends.

Terry


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 1, 2011)

Chickens can easily spread cocci by walking around on the ground (picking up oocysts) then jumping onto feeders, water buckets, into the hay, etc.  If you do let chickens have access to goat feed/water areas it's that much more important to keep soil parasite loads down and keep on top of coccidiosis prevention.  Cocci are not the only thing chickens can contaminate feed and water with either...


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 1, 2011)

1/2 teaspoon of powder will treat 40 lbs of goat at the rate of 50mg of amprolium per 2.2 lbs of body weight. This is the rate that Helmstead is using with the liquid corid. 

So You can mix the 1/2 teaspoon of powder as you wish to treat the specific size of goat you need to treat. 
Perhaps the easiest would be to mix it in 4 teaspoons of water and each teaspoon(5cc) would then treat 10lbs of goat. This is 5 times the label dosage of giving 10mg of amprolium to 2.2 lbs of body wieght. 

To make it even more confussing, I don't treat at that high of rate. At the very most I only treat at half that dosage, so for every teaspoon(5cc) of finished mix I would treat 20lbs of goat. But I prefer to treat them twice a day. 



Finished mix:

1/2teaspoon powder to 4 teaspoon or 20cc of water. Mix and treat at the rate of 5cc per 10lbs of body weight once a day. or my recommendation would be 5cc per 20lbs of body weight twice a day. for 5 days in a row.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Chickens can easily spread cocci by walking around on the ground (picking up oocysts) then jumping onto feeders, water buckets, into the hay, etc.  If you do let chickens have access to goat feed/water areas it's that much more important to keep soil parasite loads down and keep on top of coccidiosis prevention.  Cocci are not the only thing chickens can contaminate feed and water with either...


They sure can. Not to mention letting human children run barefoot, where the foul have messed. The amish here have turkeys & chickens running loose, messing all over the place. The kids run right around the same areas. Then, the kids take turns having a runny nose, and being sick. I'd suspect it's because the animals are allowed to poop any where they want. Facts are facts! 

Again, I am sorry if anything I say upsets anyone. That's not my intention at all. Just an old animal lover here!

Terry


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## Goatherd (Aug 1, 2011)

No need to apologize, least of all, to me.  Like you, I expressed my opinion concerning free-range birds and goats.  I'm also sorry if you feel that your opinion wasn't embraced and agreed upon by me.
I also am not so naive as to think that there can't be cross contamination from different species of animals and fowl.

I obviously raise my animals differently than you...doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  I've also seen goat folks raise their animals under pristine conditions without the benefit of bird contamination and have more issues than I could dream possible.

And by the way...welcome to BYHF.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> No need to apologize, least of all, to me.  Like you, I expressed my opinion concerning free-range birds and goats.  I'm also sorry if you feel that your opinion wasn't embraced and agreed upon by me.
> I also am not so naive as to think that there can't be cross contamination from different species of animals and fowl.
> 
> I obviously raise my animals differently than you...doesn't make either of us right or wrong.  I've also seen goat folks raise their animals under pristine conditions without the benefit of bird contamination and have more issues than I could dream possible.
> ...


It's not just goats that I worry about. I am possibly older than you, and worry about our health as well. We'd like to have chickens for the eggs, but I don't want to breathe the dust from them. So there's another topic. Lol..


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## Goatherd (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm older than dirt, live life on the edge and have fresh eggs EVERY DAY for breakfast.  I'll save you the time...no cholesterol problems here!


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> I'm older than dirt, live life on the edge and have fresh eggs EVERY DAY for breakfast.  I'll save you the time...no cholesterol problems here!


I'm not worried about cholesterol. I have bad lungs and don't want to get them clogged up with chicken dust.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 1, 2011)

I am not going to get into a heated arguement about which diseases are zootonic in poultry and which are not. But  if one of you can pull up an actual report saying coccidiosis is zootonic, please post the link.  

From my understanding coccidiosis is species specific.

Now I am not saying poultry don't scratch around digging up bacteria and germs that may have otherwise laid dormant. nor am I saying they have absolutly no zootonic illnesses(avian flu comes to mind), but I do beleive you will survive walking through a chicken house or having some chickens in your backyard just fine. I beleive your other livestock will survive it just fine as well. 

Not that we can have chickens or any poultry or parakets for that matter. My husband is on the avian influenza task force.  for us to consider raising eggs and having chickens around our goats isn't really a choice.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 1, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I am not going to get into a heated arguement about which diseases are zootonic in poultry and which are not. But  if one of you can pull up an actual report saying coccidiosis is zootonic, please post the link.
> 
> From my understanding coccidiosis is species specific.


Cocci ARE species specific.  But it's the goat cocci the chickens are walking through in common areas then climbing into the hay manger, the edge of the water bucket, scratching in feed pans, etc.

Personally, I'm not at all concerned with my chickens free ranging outside of the goat barn and we often let them do so.  But the mangers are mounted high enough that chickens can't get dirty feet anywhere near the hay and our water buckets are high enough that the chickens don't tend to use them.  As far as the chickens scratching around in the pens and pooping is concerned- I don't feed my goats off the ground so it's really not a concern for me.

We love our fresh eggs too, but I don't let the chickens inside kid pens at all.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Aug 1, 2011)

In case anyone is interested. I have been using the herbal formula GI Sooth very well here. This summer has been pretty rainy and yucky. I have not had any fecals so I don't know if all my cases of scours have been cocci, but I'm sure a few that were otherwise unexplained were. Anyways, at first sign of runny poo I treat each animal with a double dose of GI Sooth. I usually have to only give two doses before the runny poo is gone. I'm hopefully getting a fecal done soon (if I can find anyone who will do it for me, the vets are outrageous!) and I'll know then what the scope of things really is, but it's certainly worth having on hand to stop scours FAST.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Aug 1, 2011)

I also use GI Sooth for any running or loose stools and have yet to have any problems with cocci this yr.... 

I have had fecals done on all the dairy girls and babie so far every one is ok, in fact the vet said they look great, with all the rain and crude we have had.

So i am very happy with Fir Medows and Kats products.


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## crystal.dirty (Aug 6, 2012)

There is evidence that Coccidia can be treated by feeding something high in tannins.  So Oak and Willow would be things you could introduce into their diet, especially during wet, rainy times of the year as a preventative.


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## RamblingCowgirl (Jul 20, 2013)

What a useful topic! Thank you OP for asking 

Around here parasites of all sorts seem to be thick. We also found out that lack of copper can cause parasite issues to boom.

It's not chem free, but I've been told Toltrazuril Baycox works best, not sure of the dose. It's marketed for horses. You only have to give it once, not for five days. Some friends of mine that are more experienced goat herders started using that this year and are very happy with it.


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## rinksgi (Jul 28, 2013)

I have never used them, but I have read that if you use Corrid, supplement with Thiamine. I also read that feed high in Tannin can prevent parasites. Didn't know Oak contained it, but lespideza(sp) hay has it. Here we call it serricia grass hay. giving copper is supposed to help as well. I use the herbal wormer from hoegger's but have not taken a fecal in. i plan to do that soon. Good luck with your babies.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 28, 2013)

The problem with supplementing with Thiamine while doing CoRid is that it CoRid is a thiamine antagonist---it looks very much like REAL thiamine so that the goat's body can stop releasing enough actual thiamine.  The coccidia consume the fake thiamine and starve to death but the goat can end up with polio if CoRid is used over an extended time since it is not making actual thiamine in an adequate amount.  So the thought that giving them thiamine makes sense but then the medication won't work properly either since you would be giving the coccidia what they need to survive as well.


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