# Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) Vaccine for goats



## Aped (Jul 20, 2009)

I was looking at vaccines online, specifically on jefferslivestock but also on google, and I can't find a CL vaccine for goats. I found one for sheep which also has CD/T but no CL. Do people give the goats the sheep vaccine? Or just not vaccinate goats against CL? I read somewhere you could give them the sheep vaccine then I read somewhere else that goats have an adverse reaction to the sheep vaccine for CL and the FDA has no approved it's use on goats. Should I even be worrying about this?


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## username taken (Jul 20, 2009)

here in Aust we use the sheep vaccine


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## jambunny (Jul 20, 2009)

Have you ever had any problem using the vaccine on goats?  My goat mentor, who is also paranoid, talked me out of trying it.  I would like to try it if you haven't had problems.


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## username taken (Jul 21, 2009)

no problems whatsoever


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## Roll farms (Jul 21, 2009)

I use it as well, w/ no problems.  I've read it will cause false positive test results.  Better a false positive test than a real case of CL, IMHO.

They're supposedly working on a vaccine specifically for goats now...
in the testing phases.

Worry about it if you plan to buy, show, or travel with your goats, breed them to outside sources, etc.

In other words, the producer w/ 3 pets who'll never leave their farm...probably doesn't need to worry about it.
Those who will be exposing theirs to outside oogies...need to do their research and decide if it's worth the risk....but I'd say yes, do it.


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## Aped (Jul 21, 2009)

Okay so this is the one that I was planning to buy 

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc...=FQ8KPRK76SL68HHF8W6XE2EGB3MG0NCD&pf_id=16738

but then I noticed that there is no Type C Cl. Perfringens.

So now my question is what is everyone else giving to their goats for annual vaccinations?


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## Roll farms (Jul 22, 2009)

Your link expired...

I use the case-bac and Essential 3+T seperately.  

I know they make one w/ CL and CD and T combined, but I prefer the 2 I use.  Essential 3+T can be given in the muscle and I get no shot lumps that way.


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## Aped (Jul 22, 2009)

I got the Caseous D-T for sheep but next time I will probably get the 2 separate vaccines. I actually didn't see the Case-Bac the first time I looked. Thanks.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2009)

Last I checked, Case-Bac was still considered a no-no, but that was a while ago..  Glad I saw this thread, because a lot of the anecdotals seem to have changed from "No!  For the love of pete, don't do it!!!!" to "We've done it a thousand times with no side effects..."

I'll probably order some Case-Bac soon...not that I expect to bring any goats in, but ya never know what someone's bringing in on their boots.  Lots of goats around here..


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## broke down ranch (Aug 30, 2009)

Can these vaccines be administered to pregnant goats? What about milk withdrawal?


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## trestlecreek (Aug 30, 2009)

Don't give CL vaccines to goats. There is not one that is recommended yet. *hold your horses on this one!*
We don't want to cross species specific diseases/antibodies.


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## crazygoatlady (Aug 30, 2009)

I won't give it to my goats--I don't want to have a positive, even if it is due to the vaccine-- and I won't buy a goat that has been given the vaccine.  JMO


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Don't give CL vaccines to goats. There is not one that is recommended yet. *hold your horses on this one!*
> We don't want to cross species specific diseases/antibodies.


CL isn't species specific...it can affect both sheep and goats.  

Actually, it can also occasionally infect horses, cattle, camelids, water buffalo, wild ruminants, primates, pigs, and fowl, according to Merck.

I'm checking around locally for Case-Bac, and if I can't find it, I'll be ordering from Jeffers this week.  Like someone else said, I'd rather have a false positive than a real incident or outbreak.  There are just too many CL infested meat goat herds around here for me to be able too keep my animals 100% safe with biosecurity alone..  

Afterall, what's to keep a whitetail from tromping around in CL at one infected farm and then carrying it to my place?  Nothing.....can't exactly expect a whitetail to bleach its hooves at the gate, ya know?


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2009)

And, as for those false positives....

What I've read so far indicates that a goat might have a positive titre for CL for a short period of time after the vaccination, but that it will go back to negative relatively quickly.  

I've yet to hear of a goat that tests positive forever after getting the Case-Bac vaccine..


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## broke down ranch (Aug 31, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> trestlecreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. I'd rather have a false positive than a "positive" positive.....

ETA: there are a lot of products that aren't recommended or are used off-label for our goats. The biggest one I can think of is ivermectin. If we all relied only on labels instead of someone's experience then we'd have some sickly animals indeed....


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## trestlecreek (Aug 31, 2009)

CL actually does have species specificity and there are different strains. You can create more virulent strains by giving vaccines to animals that the vaccine has not been approved for. 

You don't have to convince me of your own personal use. I just personally could not recommend it from my educational background and experience.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2009)

tc said:
			
		

> CL actually does have species specificity and there are different strains. You can create more virulent strains by giving vaccines to animals that the vaccine has not been approved for.


To my knowledge, there's no such thing as a "live" CL vaccine..  

I'm not saying you're wrong here, but perhaps you can enlighten us as to how vaccination with a killed bacterin can give rise to even one live cell of the target bacteria within the vaccinated animal, let alone a more virulent strain of such..

Again...not saying it doesn't happen...just looking for info.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 31, 2009)

When a goat is vaccinated with a vaccine that has NOT been proven for the species or strain of CL, the goat can contract a related strain and with the antibodies to the strain vaccinated for, these cells create a newer, different strain...the goat can then become virulent as the mutant has evolved.
Does not have to be a live vaccine for these to evolve.

Think about how the swine flu appeared?....it's a different situation, but the example shows us how much we yet have to learn.....

Diseases are smart. That is why drug trials HAVE to go on for specific strains and species.

Testing is not complete for the goat and CL. Scientists are still  unsure of whether or not the strain is related to Johnes in goats.
I personally wouldn't touch that vaccine with a ten foot pole. IF and when they are done with trials and experiments is when I would be willing to consider it.

We're not talking about Ivomec possibly being toxic, we are talking about creating new diseases with this vaccine. Not something I want to do.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> When a goat is vaccinated with a vaccine that has NOT been proven for the species or strain of CL, the goat can contract a related strain and with the antibodies to the strain vaccinated for, these cells create a newer, different strain...the goat can then become virulent as the mutant has evolved.
> Does not have to be a live vaccine for these to evolve.


So...how exactly does a particular strain of bacteria plus an _antibody_ to a different, but related, strain of bacteria give rise to a whole new strain of bacteria?  

I don't see how that can happen..



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Think about how the swine flu appeared?....it's a different situation, but the example shows us how much we yet have to learn.....


To my understanding, "swine flu" is the result of an antigenic shift, which is basically where a single host becomes infected with two or more different strains of a particuluar virus..  Inside the host, pieces of each of the different strains combine to create a strain that's similar, yet totally different from the strains that combined to create it..

Thing is, CL is caused by bacteria -- it's not viral.  But even if it were viral, giving a vaccine that contained pieces of a different strain of a *killed* virus wouldn't allow for an antigenic shift, because there's no live virus..  And even if there was one live virus and several dead virii, it's not as though a new virus can be created with parts of a live virus and parts of a dead virus..  

If that were the case, everyone who was vaccinated for a certain strain of influenza who then contracted a different strain would become a breeding ground for viral reassortment..  

To my knowledge, it doesn't work that way...but I could be wrong!  And, again, I'm not trying to wag my finger and say you're wrong here...I'm just trying to understand, because I truly don't get how what you're saying could be the case.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Diseases are smart. That is why drug trials HAVE to go on for specific strains and species.
> 
> Testing is not complete for the goat and CL. Scientists are still  unsure of whether or not the strain is related to Johnes in goats. I personally wouldn't touch that vaccine with a ten foot pole. IF and when they are done with trials and experiments is when I would be willing to consider it.
> 
> We're not talking about Ivomec possibly being toxic, we are talking about creating new diseases with this vaccine. Not something I want to do.


Colorado Serum tested their sheep CL vaccine in goats...the same one they use for sheep.  

The only reason it wasn't released was because it caused a higher incidence of injection-site reactions and associated lameness in goats.  They believed the lameness would be unacceptable to the USDA, so they bailed..

SUPPOSEDLY they started working on one specifically for goats....but it never comes.  Ever.  If you'll notice, Colorado's CL goat vax is always right around the corner..  Yeah..right.

Anyway, it had nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccination, per se...it was just the lameness and injection-site reactions.

Colorado Serum posted as much on their website...  You can check it out right here ..  Here's the thing, though..._you gotta read between the lines!_  At a glance, it seems like they're saying "Don't do it!"...but read it a few times.

To me, what they're saying is:

"We're legally obligated to discourage you from using Case-Bac in goats, but what we hear from the real world is a bit of post-injection lethargy, maybe an injection site reaction, and maybe some reduced feed intake and milk output.  The USDA won't ok that, so we can't recommend it.  

However, since we're the only CL vaccine commercially available in the US, and since we're already making great off-label money on goats, there's really no reason to work extra hard and spend a ton of money to get Case-Bac _on-label_ for goats..  Soooo, tough titty, goat owners!  You're stuck with off-label Case-Bac..  



Oh, wait, that's right....you could always try the super-expensive autogenous vaccine...(snicker)...and, good luck with that!  We don't think it works very well, but you could always roll the dice with your animals.. :/ "

But...maybe that's just how I'm reading it..  YMMV.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 1, 2009)

If you keep learning about how vaccines work and how virus/bacteria grow and proliferate, drug testing protocols and trials, etc .....then you will understand what I am saying.

Not to sound mean or argumentative at all, I just can not continue to explain this ten different ways. There is too much base information needed to lead up to what I am saying.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 1, 2009)

OK, we all choose to do what we think is best to keep our herd healthy. Can anyone tell me if either of these vaccines can be given to a pregnant or lactating goat? I am planning on ordering some Equimax from Jeffers and if these can be given to my pregnant girls then I would like to include them in my order (to justify the shipping charges....lol).


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## trestlecreek (Sep 1, 2009)

I wouldn't....


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## broke down ranch (Sep 1, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> I wouldn't....


Yes, I know. Thanks for your input, tho....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2009)

tc said:
			
		

> If you keep learning about how vaccines work and how virus/bacteria grow and proliferate, drug testing protocols and trials, etc .....then you will understand what I am saying.


Well...that's kinda what I was trying to do.  



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Not to sound mean or argumentative at all, I just can not continue to explain this ten different ways. There is too much base information needed to lead up to what I am saying.


I'm not looking for 10 ways, and I'm not looking for an argument either..  Just good information..  You seem to have a good deal of experience with how this all works, and I for one would truly appreciate it if you could share that with us..  Afterall, if there's a sound scientific explanation for why I shouldn't be vaccinating goats for CL -- aside from it simply being off-label -- I'd surely like to know..

I can't help but wonder.....had the injection-site reactions not been as severe as what Colorado saw, Case-Bac would probably be labelled for sheep _and_ goats right now..  Would you feel differently about it then, even though it would be the same vaccine with the same CL antigen that's available right now?

Again...not trying to argue..  Just trying to learn.


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## helmstead (Sep 1, 2009)

My 2 cents, FWIW...

I would NOT use the commercially available CL vaccine.  

The information I have gathered leads me to this point:  IF you have a goat test positive for CL in your herd you can have a vaccine made _for that specific strain _and vaccinate the negative goats in your herd _for that specific strain_.  This is all IF you wouldn't rather just cull the positive animal and continue regular testing.  Labor intesive and costly?  Yes...but what about animal husbandry isn't one or both?

IMO the best thing to do is avoid CL altogether, buying from clean herds, never even attending auctions, don't allow human visitors into your pens, etc.  I know the dairy and Pygmy people feel differently than the meat goat community on this at large...but it's pretty clean cut to me.

If you avoid the risk, you avoid the need for a vaccine.  I relate it to vaccinating horses for Strangles.  If your horses stay home (no shows, no off site trail rides, no nearby horses who are in these activities), aren't in a show/sale/boarding barn with high turn over...generally if the risk factor is low - you don't vaccinate for it.

Vaccinations for organisms that are found in soil or ever present - like rabies, C/D and tet...now those should be non negotiable as they are a constant risk.  Sort of like how my horses are always vaccinated for rabies, enceph, tet, WNV, etc...environmental hazards.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> My 2 cents, FWIW...
> 
> I would NOT use the commercially available CL vaccine.
> 
> The information I have gathered leads me to this point:  IF you have a goat test positive for CL in your herd you can have a vaccine made _for that specific strain _and vaccinate the negative goats in your herd _for that specific strain_.  This is all IF you wouldn't rather just cull the positive animal and continue regular testing.  Labor intesive and costly?  Yes...but what about animal husbandry isn't one or both?


Labor intensive and costly is one thing, but PHL Associates -- the ones selling the autogenous vaccine -- seem to be taking that to an extreme.

For instance, they now have a minimum order of **20** 100ml bottles of their CL vaccine, which is enough to treat 1,000 adult goats..

Yes...ONE THOUSAND GOATS.

The collection kit alone costs $98..  Even if it only cost $0.55/head like Case-Bac (highly unlikely -- _they don't even list the price of the actual vaccine!!!_), you're still looking at about $650 -- minimum -- just to get your feet wet..  Probably much, much, much more than that.

That said, there are a few other things about their system that strike me as odd...

For instance, once you send in your collection, they say they'll develop _and test_ the vaccine within 4 to 6 weeks.  Not sure how that works, considering a goat can incubate CL for 90 days or longer before it begins to show physical symptoms...  Makes me wonder what they mean by "test."  

Also, check this out from their FAQ page:



> *What if my herd has infected goats from different areas?*
> Most ranchers choose to have a vaccine made from one isolate.  Chances, this vaccine will protect the entire herd.  But, if abscesses continue to occur, you can take separate samples from up to three different goats and have up to three isolates made.


:/  I think they just let the cat out of the bag here...

What I mean is...*if*, by their own admission, a single isolate will most likely protect _the entire herd_ from _different strains_ of CL, then what's the point of a custom-cultured autogenous vaccine to begin with?

Frankly, I don't buy it..  

I'm not gonna come right out and say that I think they're selling straight-up snake oil, because I don't necessarily doubt that the vaccine works...I just happen to believe that Case-Bac works, too, and probably just as well.

So, compared to a $5.47 bottle of Case-Bac, maybe the PHL vaccine just _looks_ like snake oil...





			
				helmstead said:
			
		

> IMO the best thing to do is avoid CL altogether, buying from clean herds, never even attending auctions, don't allow human visitors into your pens, etc.  I know the dairy and Pygmy people feel differently than the meat goat community on this at large...but it's pretty clean cut to me.


I agree -- avoid it if you can.  

For me, though, in my particular situation....I'd consider CL to be basically endemic to my area right now.  To not vaccinate my herd against it, to me, is like playing Russian roulette with _their _health -- not mine.  

I will continue to practice good biosecurity, but I just can't help but feel like someday, at some point, CL's gonna make its way to my farm on a boot or tire or a whitetail deer and I'm gonna regret not having vaccinated against it.

It would be one thing if there were some kind of serious potential downside to vaccinating, but I'm just not seeing it at this point..  All I see is upside, apart from the same basic risks you run with any other vaccine (injection reactions, anaphylaxis, etc)..

That said, I'll be ordering Case-Bac soon.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, in my case we brought home a Saanen billy. He was isolated. Acted fine, ate fine, showed no problems of ANY kind. We decided he was the wrong direction for our next round of kids. We had him for a little over a month (isolated this whole time) when we sold him. The new owners had him 2 weeks when he had an abcess come up and burst, seemingly overnight. What would have happened if he had not shown any of this and I integrated him into my herd then he had a abcess burst? It's bad enough this woman now has to deal with this problem. And it wasn't even something I knew about.... 

So my worry is if that stuff is here, if he shed it somehow and we just didn't see it. I haven't had any of my goats develop this and I would prefer to keep it that way.


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## Roll farms (Sep 1, 2009)

Long story short, or at least as short as possible....I bought a goat from a well-known and well-reputed breeder (Not a sale barn) that had vet signed health papers that... brought CL into my herd 2 mos. later.
*gasp*
Called the vet, had the suspicous lump tested and sure enough it was CL.
(This was 6 or 7 yrs ago...)

She advised me I could:
A) cull / kill my herd as they got lumps, 
*or*
B) I could have a vaccine made that was from *my* herd (strain).

Because I LOVE my goats, I couldn't cull them, and I wasn't going to send them to the sale barn for some other person to deal with.

360$ later, I have 2 bottles of vaccine....and CL went rampant through my 'herd' of 10 goats in the next year.   ALL of them had it.  
(My suspicion now is that the vaccine was mishandled en route OR wasn't made properly...)

But...hmmm...none were dying or 'sickly'....just icky lumps that I have to lance / drain.  Inconvenient?  Yes.  The end of the world?  Nope.
(Again, keep in mind we don't show so I didn't have to worry about that aspect of it...That would be a whole other ball game.)

I vaccinated all the new kids I kept for breeders, my older carriers, etc.  Still kept getting it in anyone here longer than 6 mos.  It took nearly 2 yrs to use up all of that vaccine.

I don't sell adults, and anyone who's been exposed to the older carriers is here for life, period.

(I catch every kid at birth, the newborns leave at 7-10 days of age from a 'clean' barn, and not ONCE has a kid I've sold ended up w/ CL....Not once.  That's close to 200 kids as the herd has grown. )

Once that vaccine ran out, I did more research and thought "Why not try the Case-Bac?" ....so we did....and suddenly the number of new cases of CL dropped.  We've been using it on all of our keepers for the last 3 yrs.

8 of the original 10, plus 5 others from the 'custom made vaccine' time frame, are here and are still CL positive.  They don't break out often, and usually it's not long after they've been given a booster shot of the Case-Bac vaccine.

1 of the does born 2 yrs ago (Case-Bac) is positive.  I'm not sure if the vaccine failed or if I did (when I administered it), but for some reason, it didn't work on her.

We have an isolation pen for 'lumpy' does to go into when I see or feel one coming on.  They are there until they've been drained and heal over.

It's not common for anyone to admit they have CL but it's a LOT more common than folks think.  Most practice the "sell 'em at the sale barn as they break out and lie through your teeth" route.  

I admit we have it, I admit it's a pain in the hiney to deal with.
But do I feel like I'm part of the problem?  No.  

My "sick" goats are healthy, beautiful, productive...I'm GLAD I didn't cull them.  I'm proud of myself for not sending them off to the sale barn and helping to spread the disease....for dealing with it here.

None of our bucks have it / have ever gotten it.  When people ask for buck service here, I tell them we have CL in our herd, and how we deal with it, and let them decide if they want to 'risk' it.  I scare some folks off, but even they tell me they appreciate my honesty.  
Some have been back 5 yrs running w/ no issues.

Most people would tell you "You'd never know she has CL in her herd."

It's not the best way, or the easiest, but it's the only way I could find to deal with it and not hate myself for either spreading it or killing them.

I would LOVE it if my boer kids could nurse off their moms.  I caught / bottle raised (for 7-10 days) 55 kids last year alone!  

I agree, people SHOULD stop the spread of the disease...it starts w/ being HONEST about it.   I'd give anything to NOT have to deal w/ this...


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## trestlecreek (Sep 1, 2009)

I commend you for your honesty and I agree, if I were in your situation, I'm sure I would have done as you are doing. I too love my goats and I know they are my responsibility.
I despise people that sell goats knowing they have a disease and do not tell it. It takes a good heart and a good mind to deal with these things correctly. I just wish there were more of us around.


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## lilhill (Sep 2, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> I commend you for your honesty and I agree, if I were in your situation, I'm sure I would have done as you are doing. I too love my goats and I know they are my responsibility.
> I despise people that sell goats knowing they have a disease and do not tell it. It takes a good heart and a good mind to deal with these things correctly. I just wish there were more of us around.


I agree and commend you for the way you have handled the whole situation.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

roll farms said:
			
		

> 360$ later, I have 2 bottles of vaccine....and CL went rampant through my 'herd' of 10 goats in the next year.   ALL of them had it.
> (My suspicion now is that the vaccine was mishandled en route OR wasn't made properly...)
> 
> But...hmmm...none were dying or 'sickly'....just icky lumps that I have to lance / drain.  Inconvenient?  Yes.  The end of the world?  Nope.
> ...


And there ya have it, folks...  

As for it being mishandled, consider that Colorado Serum's statement on Case-Bac/Caseous D-T use in goats noted that people could *try* the autogenous vaccine, but they stated that they didn't think it would work very well in goats....maybe it wasn't mishandled at all.

Maybe it just straight-up doesn't work..

Maybe that's why they now require **20** bottles at a minimum, so they can still make $$$.



			
				roll farms said:
			
		

> It's not common for anyone to admit they have CL but it's a LOT more common than folks think.  Most practice the "sell 'em at the sale barn as they break out and lie through your teeth" route.


I know what you mean..  We don't have CL in our herd, but I've seen it first-hand, and I had an interesting conversation with a Vet one day that really worried me a lot...  This vet's since moved out of state, but when he was here, he was considered to be THE goat vet for this area..

Anyhow, we got on the subject of CL and he said that he really didn't think it was that big a deal..  I was surprised, but he went on to say that a lot of folks who claim never to have had it in their herd are liars, and....now, this is the part that really worried me....that "if you run goats long enough, you're _gonna_ get CL eventually."

Of course, my mind immediately ran to biosecurity, closed herds, clorox foot baths, etc...  That's all well and good, but you have to buy a new buck every now and again..  There's an opportunity to bring something in..  Sometimes a friend calls and says "Hey, come help me with my goats"....there's another opportunity for CL to come back on boots and tires..  Sometimes a goat friend just pulls in the driveway to say hey...what's on his tires?  What about the whitetail who just ran with CL goats down the road then came to visit my farm?  

Unfortunately, the vet's right..  In my opinion, anyway..  Somehow, some way, I can't help but think that it will eventually happen.  It's just too daggone prevalent around here.  

That said...I just ordered Case-Bac from Jeffers, and my herd will be vaccinated for it this weekend.  I'm simply not gonna mess around anymore..


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## Aped (Sep 2, 2009)

Wow this thread really took off. Obviously, I am all for vaccinating with CL for sheep. I think a lot of the people saying they wouldn't touch this stuff and just practice good husbandry is like a person saying they wouldn't get a polio faction back in the day by just deciding not to get the virus. Viruses and Bacteria aren't exactly something you can physically dodge. They're invisible and you can't see them. If you do take your goat to shows it's something that you really have to worry about. You don't know how other people care for their goats.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

Aped said:
			
		

> Viruses and Bacteria aren't exactly something you can physically dodge. They're invisible and you can't see them.


I agree..  As the saying goes, "life will find a way"..  Whether we like it or not, bacteria and virii are forms of life, and they will find a way to replicate and keep their kind moving forward.



			
				Aped said:
			
		

> If you do take your goat to shows it's something that you really have to worry about. You don't know how other people care for their goats.


That's a fact..  They all look the picture of health when they're freshly clipped, fitted-up, and placed in their cute little pens at the state fair..  

On the other hand, I was also asked a while back if I wanted to watch or help drain a CL knot off a goat that was already committed to what was then an upcoming show..  Didn't want to pull the goat from the show, so they were going to lance it a little early and give it a chance to heal before she had to be fitted up.

Um, no....thanks anyway.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

So, hey...I have a question for those of you who are vaccinating with Case-Bac:  Where do you stick'em?  

Colorado apparently directs you to inject in the 'axillary space' (flank), but then they talk about associated lameness and whatnot..  Seems like a bad idea.  

I've also read about SQ'ing over the ribs on one side for the first dose, then the other side for the booster..  That sounds better, for some reason.

And, for that matter...do you guys do the booster right at 30 days, or is that different for goats too?


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## Roll farms (Sep 2, 2009)

I always stick mine in the rump area, sub q.  Boost in 3-4 weeks, same place, opposite side.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

Hmm..  No lameness or anything to speak of or anything like that?

All I ever read is "could cause" or "reports of" with respect to the potential reactions to Case-Bac, but I've never once run across a "OMG! HELP ME" post on it.


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## Roll farms (Sep 2, 2009)

None that I can recall.  At least none that were bad enough for me to have noticed enough TO recall, if you know what I mean.

I've gimped them up worse w/ Nuflor and hoof trimming, for sure.  THOSE, I remember....


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## Roll farms (Sep 2, 2009)

I happened to be in our vets' office picking up the first vaccine I used, and THE "big time" boer breeder from our area was also there.  
These folks charge thousands for some of their goats, show all over, etc.
The vet tech hands me mine, looks at her and says, "Oh, since you're here, do you want to pick up your CL vaccine, too?"
I thought she was going to fall through the floor....
And yet, their site STILL says, "CL free".
Yet it was the same type vaccine as mine, made from a sample from your herd.
:/


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

Yep...CL is far more prevalent than anyone likes to admit.  What I've found is that the deeper you get into the goat world and the friendlier you get with other people who own goats, the more you start hearing about goats with suspicious lumps that (supposedly) get sent right off to the salebarn, or of a CL goat over at such-and-such's farm, etc....  

Pretty soon, you realize it's actually a lot of folks' "dirty little secret."

Roll farms.....not sure if I said this before, but I do applaud your openness about CL.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Yep...CL is far more prevalent than anyone likes to admit.  What I've found is that the deeper you get into the goat world and the friendlier you get with other people who own goats, the more you start hearing about goats with suspicious lumps that (supposedly)* get sent right off to the salebarn*, or of a CL goat over at such-and-such's farm, etc....
> 
> Pretty soon, you realize it's actually a lot of folks' "dirty little secret."
> 
> Roll farms.....not sure if I said this before, but I do applaud your openness about CL.


I have read on other threads and/or forums where people talk about "culling" animals that are less-than-perfect so they will no longer carry on that bad trait in their herd, flock, whatever. Yet, they cart them off to the sale barn. What the heck it THAT?!?! "Our animal isn't good enough to breed or carry on a bloodline so I'm gonna let it be someone else's headache."? If an animal has issues the owner doesn't want to deal with or traits that shouldn't be carried on thru their progeny then they should put that animal down or put it to pasture. Period. Why let someone else, who may or may not be totally new to goats (or whatever), deal with it? THAT is why CL and CAE and all those other little nasties are such a concern. Because some people couldn't pull their big boy boots up and do the right thing.

IMHO, if an animal is not worthy of breeding the owner should put it down or, if they can't bear to do that, put to pasture and never bred again.


 (off my soapbox now)


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

bdr said:
			
		

> I have read on other threads and/or forums where people talk about "culling" animals that are less-than-perfect so they will no longer carry on that bad trait in their herd, flock, whatever. Yet, they cart them off to the sale barn. What the heck it THAT?!?! "Our animal isn't good enough to breed or carry on a bloodline so I'm gonna let it be someone else's headache."?


A lot of goats that get put through the sale barn never make it to anyone else's farm.  For a good number, the sale barn is merely a layover on their trip to the big briar patch in the sky.

Some may make it to other farms, but....well, anybody with a lick of sense ought to know that even if a goat enters the salebarn healthy, it's coming out the other side with who knows what..  Likewise, anybody with a lick of sense should know that if they buy a goat from the salebarn, it's going to bring who knows what back to their farm with it..  

So, I guess the logic goes something like this.....  If you cull an animal by sending it to the sale barn, you more or less expect that it's about to get 'ett.'  If someone is dumb enough to buy your problem, then that's quite literally _their_ problem.

I've got much less problem with that than with someone looking folks right in the eye and selling their problem animals as replacements in private treaty, complete with a handshake and a smile..  At least at the salebarn, everybody knows they're taking a risk..


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## Roll farms (Sep 3, 2009)

Selling a CL postivie goat, IMHO, is just as bad as selling a 6 teated boer doe kid WITH PAPERS to some kid for 4-H....Or selling a crossbred doe as purebred WITH PAPERS....KNOWING you're doing it.

Some of the "reputable" sellers / breeders should stop seeing dollar signs and do what's right!

I have an Oberhasli doe here now to be bred to our Ob buck...wide face, short and squat, white star on her head.  OBVIOUSLY crossed to either pymy or Nigerian....but by golly her "Purebred Oberhasli" papers from ADGA look squeaky clean.

There's a 6 teated boer doe here to be bred...I told the folks she shouldn't be but...they don't seem to care.  It's not my doe to cull, but she's not going to be bred to our buck.  I told them to come back and get her.  They're not happy but I'm not having kids out there w/ 6 teats w/ my buck's name on the papers.  (I didn't notice her teats til after they'd dropped her off.)
They seem to think the fact that she has papers and they paid 300$ for her is good enough....arghhhhh!

Anyone who goes to a sale barn should know "You get what you pay for"...but the 2 goats I described above were bought from breeders...
who should KNOW BETTER!

They just look for the suckers and dump the crap off on them.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

Unfortunately not everyone knows to be leary of the sale barn. There are folks (like my next door neighbors) who have lived in the city their entire life then decide "what the heck" and move to the country. Then they start thinking "let's have a FARM...!" and bam, they're at the sale barn because they see the word "livestock"....

So, while it may be obvious to those with common sense to not buy from a sale barn, not everyone comes equipped with such a desirable trait.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

I know Boer breeders who are quick to point out the supernumary teats on their does and say things like "Hey, how do you like _that_!"...like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

We're primarily dairy...more than two teats is a flaw in my mind, regardless of the breed.  I know it's not a flaw on paper as far as Boers go, but to me, it's still a flaw....a flaw against nature, if nothing else.

I often wonder if some of these folks realize that even if a doe has multiple teats on each side, _those teats still draw from the same chamber!!_  So, yeah, maybe you can get four kids under her, but if one teat works better than the other or is located in a superior position -- which is almost always the case -- the kid on the _sub_optimal teat is STILL being shorted...

Ugh...  Sorry... </rant>


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

Oh, and just to show you how knowledgeable one man we know is - his daughter is big into showing boers. Says he knows everything there is about goats - he tells us our girls are NOT dairy goats because EVERYONE knows dairy goats gave 4 teats!


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## Roll farms (Sep 3, 2009)

> our girls are NOT dairy goats because EVERYONE knows dairy goats gave 4 teats


*spits coffee on the screen"

Bwuah ha ha ha ha ha ha...mebbers he means COWS.

4 teats, as hard as it is, I can live with...but 6??  Not registerable, period!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> Unfortunately not everyone knows to be leary of the sale barn. There are folks (like my next door neighbors) who have lived in the city their entire life then decide "what the heck" and move to the country. Then they start thinking "let's have a FARM...!" and bam, they're at the sale barn because they see the word "livestock"....
> 
> So, while it may be obvious to those with common sense to not buy from a sale barn, not everyone comes equipped with such a desirable trait.


In my experience, most problems begin somewhere in the interval between the "Let's...." part and the "bam!" part.  Generally speaking, the brevity of that interval is inversely proportionate to the magnitude of the resulting problem.

Goes for almost every idea the human mind can concoct...sort of a "life in general" principle, I'd say..  The interval doesn't seem to widen for a lot of folks past about 15 years of age, and there's not a whole hell of a lot you can do about it.

Except, that is, make money off of them at the salebarn...and most everywhere else.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> broke down ranch said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is why it's up to the person who KNOWS there's a problem to do something about it instead of letting it become someone else's problem. I know there is nothing to do about those without the common sense God gave a lemon but a responsible breeder could have the integrity to not contribute to their stupidity....




> our girls are NOT dairy goats because EVERYONE knows dairy goats gave 4 teats
> 
> *spits coffee on the screen"
> 
> Bwuah ha ha ha ha ha ha...mebbers he means COWS.


I told DH either he's a total idiot or he thinks we are. Probably the latter but he's the one breeding his show does to unregistered billy's...


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> Which is why it's up to the person who KNOWS there's a problem to do something about it instead of letting it become someone else's problem. I know there is nothing to do about those without the common sense God gave a lemon but a responsible breeder could have the integrity to not contribute to their stupidity....


Just as I learned long ago that if I endeavored to dole out an asswhoopin to everyone who deserved one, I wouldn't have time for anything else...I learned that saving people from their own stupidity is an exercise in frustration and futility.

Don't get me wrong...we agree, in principle.  If things were as they should be, everyone would look out for everyone else -- and for goats -- and CL+ animals would be humanely destroyed..  

As this is far from a perfect world, however, this goat owner has decided to buy Case-Bac and move on in an effort to avoid the whole issue coming and going..

I don't like it anymore than you do, I promise.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey, speaking of the Case-Bac - you remember the woman I was telling you her vet said her goat had white muscle disease because of worms? I was thinking about her this morning and remembered she has CL from that Saanen billy that was here for a short time. The vet lanced the abcess then *vaccinated* the goat. He also gave her an antibiotic shot but he did administer a vaccine for CL. THEN he sent out the culture to confirm CL..... 

I think I'll give her a ring and see if she can find out exactly what the vaccine was called.....I know he charged her like $40 for the one shot!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> Hey, speaking of the Case-Bac - you remember the woman I was telling you her vet said her goat had white muscle disease because of worms? I was thinking about her this morning and remembered she has CL from that Saanen billy that was here for a short time. The vet lanced the abcess then *vaccinated* the goat. He also gave her an antibiotic shot but he did administer a vaccine for CL. THEN he sent out the culture to confirm CL.....
> 
> I think I'll give her a ring and see if she can find out exactly what the vaccine was called.....I know he charged her like $40 for the one shot!


Hmm...  So, are you saying that the doe with "white muscle" also had a CL knot lanced _that day_, or were you talking about the buck getting lanced and vaccinated for CL a while back?

Either way...if the vet administered a CL vaccine without having that particular knot cultured, he either had an autogenous vaccine handy (unlikely) or he vaccinated with Case-Bac or Caseous D-T, since that's the only other CL vax available in the US....even though it's off-label for goats.

Not that I'd doubt a vet to go off-label.....any vet who would treat a goat would have to go off label pretty frequently, given that so little is actually labeled for goats.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

No, no, it was an entirely different female than the one he said had the white muscle. 

OK, it's kind of a long story. Last year I had 6 girls (4 of breeding age) and no billy so in August 2008 I traded a doeling for a MASSIVE Nubian billy. Well, he did his job so we sold him (no place for a full-time billy at that time). Well, back in February I see the doeling I had traded on Craigslist only now she was HUGE pregnant. I contacted the guy and we got her back. After he heard of the disaster that happened to us while we were gone picking up his billy he says "everyone needs help once in a while" and just gave her back to us. She kidded but was a total PITA to milk so I got tired of having to hobble her every single time just to get a few cups of milk. I sold her to this woman we're talking of. Well, a few weeks later we get a call from the "everyone needs help" guy saying he's getting out of goats and the lady who bought up all the rest of his goats didn't want his 2 billys (one Nubian, one Saanen - both registered) so did we want them? Well, by now we had a place to keep them so they lived here for about a month at which time I put the Nubian with my girls and sent the Saanen on down the road. The woman who bought my PITA milker also got this Saanen billy. Well, he wasn't at her place for more than 2 weeks when I get a call saying he had an abcess that burst and the milker has a lump on her jaw/neck. OK, now I feel like I am being accused of passing on diseased goats when I had NO CLUE about their hidden condition. I think the guy we got them from KNEW he had something going on in his herd and got out fast. Yes, I was suckered BUT he has a CLEAN place, all the goats were fat and slick and bright-eyed. Still, I did quarantine but I am scared as hell my goats will come down with CL. 

But anyway, the PITA milker is the one who got the CL shot the very day she was drained. I need to ask the woman when she calls back if the vet advised shots for everyone and if he also gave one to the Saanen.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> No, no, it was an entirely different female than the one he said had the white muscle.
> 
> OK, it's kind of a long story. ....
> 
> But anyway, the PITA milker is the one who got the CL shot the very day she was drained. I need to ask the woman when she calls back if the vet advised shots for everyone and if he also gave one to the Saanen.


_And_ ask what the shot was!

It would be interesting to know if a vet was using Case-Bac on goats..


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## username taken (Sep 3, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I know Boer breeders who are quick to point out the supernumary teats on their does and say things like "Hey, how do you like _that_!"...like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
> 
> We're primarily dairy...more than two teats is a flaw in my mind, regardless of the breed.  I know it's not a flaw on paper as far as Boers go, but to me, it's still a flaw....a flaw against nature, if nothing else.
> 
> ...


Actually cm, I've milked several four teated boer does, and after I'd milked out the two main teats, I then had to milk out the two supernumeries. Those does had four quarters with a teat for each. 

On the other hand, I've also had some four teated does with only 2 chambers. 

And I've had four teated does with 3 chambers. 

I've had a 6 teated doe with four chambers, and 6 teater with 3 chambers. And yes, as ridiculous as it sounds, a 6 teater with 5 chambers. 

Weird stuff, huh? lol


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## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

Wow..

Well, ya learn something new every day.  I never would have thought that a supernumary teat would actually be a supernumary chamber..

In a way...that's almost worse, in my mind.  

Thanks for the info.


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## Roll farms (Sep 4, 2009)

CM...it says your inbox is full, when I tried to send the informative reply to your PM....I'm short on time now but suffice it to say, I think your vaccine should be fine.  I read once that it takes 1-2 days at room temp to ruin a vaccine.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

That's good news... 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go flush.

My inbox, that is.


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## bbredmom (Feb 6, 2011)

Sorry to bring up a dead thread, but we have also successfully used case-bac in our goats with just minimal lameness. 

Well today we brought home two nursing nannies who have never shown cl lumps and I checked them alllll over for any lump scars. All checked out ok. Can I vaccinate nursing moms and what is the withdrawal time? We want to start milking them later this week once the babies are a bit older. 

Thanks!


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## Roll farms (Feb 6, 2011)

I typically vaccinate our does 4 wks pre kidding, but...I don't see why you couldn't.

You'd have to check the label / contact the maker to see what the withdrawal time is.


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## bbredmom (Feb 6, 2011)

I use Colorado Case-Bac, and the only withdrawl time they have is meat, which is 21 days. I would think milk would be faster. Roll Farms, your family drinks milke from your CL+ goats, right? wouldn't this essentially be the same concept?


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## Roll farms (Feb 6, 2011)

Well...Yes, we do....but somehow it sounds nasty when you say it like that.

We milk 2 of the 4...They might get 1 lump a year.  It's just not a big deal to me, as far as worrying about the milk.  

AND...we pastuerize.


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## bbredmom (Feb 6, 2011)

I didn't mean it as a bad thing, I'm sorry! I think its great you are dealing with your CL goats so awesomely.

We will pasteurize too.

Thank you, sorry if I was offensive ....


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## Roll farms (Feb 6, 2011)

I wasn't offended, it just wasn't a pretty picture in my head.  "Milking" and "CL" in the same sentence...


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## bbredmom (Feb 6, 2011)

Oh, lol, I guess I should have worded that better.


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