# Correct Way to Train LGD *Updated 2 years later



## KinderKorner (Nov 11, 2013)

Alright. I need some answers. I've heard so many different things and I'm just not sure what is the correct way to train my Anatolian anymore.

He is 6 months old. (I thought he was older, but nope I just counted. WOW.) 

I got him at 2 months and as per advice from the breeder I put him directly in with the goats. Everything worked great. He was the sweetest little pup and very submissive. He never played too rough with the goats, and he loved them. If he got too hyper or was running around one of the older does would head butt him gently and knock him down. Which gave him a good respect.

He walked on a lease fine, listened to scolding, and if you said "back off" he would drop anything and move back and expose his belly. All good. I was so impressed.

Well around 4 or 5 months old he grew bigger than the goats. And he was now rowdy and no longer intimidated by the does. 

Instead of the sweet pup, he started chasing, tackling, and mauling all the goats who were now terrified and running from him making it worse.

He stopped listening to verbal cues, and I tried using loud voices such as bagging paper rolls together or clapping which worked for a while, then it only started working every once in a while.

He got to the point where he would listen and stop when I was around, but as soon as I went inside I could see him chasing the goats over and over.

I took him out and put him in with my old horse until he settles down.The fences are up against each other, so Kuzco is right with them, just can't get to them.

While everyone is happy now, I'm not sure where to go from here. 

Kuzco the dog is no longer timid. If the horse tries to eat his food he will even threaten and snap at him. And more than once I've had to break up a fight between them. 

I know it's just his age, and he will grow out of it. But I want to make sure I do the right things at this time, so he matures and learns correct behavior.

I've tried walking him in with the goats and he does fine. A couple weeks ago I was going to be outside for a while, so I decided to let Kuzco interact with the goats and see his reaction. I played with him a bit to wear him out. Then I put him in the goat pen.

Almost instantly he began chasing them. This was no longer harmless chasing, but full out running and tackling. I was in the pen with him and I was yelling and telling him to disengage but he just ignored me. It was a circle of the goat running for his life, Kuzco running after him, and me chasing as fast as I could to grab his collar. I thought he was going to kill the goat right there in front of me. He tackled the goat, and I managed to snag his collar. 

But he didn't settle down. I flipped him over and pinned him to the ground. But he just rolled around, and scratched, and thrashed. I had him by the neck and he was tossing his head so much and biting at me. He drew blood. And even though I was sitting on him he nearly outweighs me and I didn't think I could hold him much longer. Luckily my mom was visiting and she heard me screaming. She ran to my aid and also helped me pin him down. It took both of our full strength to keep him down. At this point I held his mouth closed to prevent him from biting me anymore. We held him until he settled down.

I was so upset and angry. I'm ashamed to say I hit the dog more than once with a stick. (This was while I was chasing him, not after I caught him.) He didn't even flinch or look up form his pursuit, at that point it was out of desperation because I honestly thought he was going to kill the goat. Oddly his chasing wasn't aggressive, it was playful. But much more powerful than I've ever witnessed. Even when he bit me it wasn't aggressive. He was just spazzing out and thrashing. 

Since then I've been a little wary around him. I felt his strength that day, and while he's never been aggressive to me, I have enough sense to know if he went after an animal and I tried to stop him and he turned on me I don't think I could restrain him. 

Where do I go from here. He's the sweetest pup. But he can get riled up and play too rough. Do I just leave him with the horse for a year until he matures and then slowly reintroduce him with the herd. 

Do I muzzle him and put him back in with the goats sooner?

I've heard so much conflicting information. 

How to I get his respect back? Right now he barely listens at all anymore. Yesterday when I had to put a new collar on him he did the roll and thrashing again and it hurt me. It's completely disrespectful, but I don't know the correct response. He isn't afraid of verbal cues anymore.


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## KinderKorner (Nov 11, 2013)

I think he will make a great dog one day. Sometimes I'm so impressed by him. He is so different than any dog I've had, his personality is so unique and amazing. And he loves the goats, I don't even think he realizes he is hurting them. 

But he has got to learn some boundaries and respect. I'm just not sure how to handle a dog who doesn't listen. Kuzco has such a mind of his own.

Even the basics like sitting and coming when called are a 50/50 if he will actually listen now. 

Since the incident he hasn't been as loving and friendly to me. If my husband and I are both outside he will completely ignore me now and go to my husband. Even if I have a treat or I'm calling him. I think I hurt his feelings, or it's just a lack of respect.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 11, 2013)

There are many things I see here.
First- your breeder gave you bad advice and this is the beginning of the issue.
second- LGD's need training- the imprint stage is from birth thru 16 weeks. Breeders often place their dogs at 8 weeks. Big mistake, the reason is they need parents stock to teach proper behavior. 
third- training, human interaction and training plays a big part. 
Now for the rest-
~ I often hear " I know it is a pup and will out grow it". This statement is not true. Often the role of alpha was not established and therefore the dog decides what they will do and what not. You can train this out of him but they do not just outgrow chasing biting. You will need to work with him.
~Dogs that have been put in the field and breeders that teach they must bond with the goats and never humans are missing it completely. These dogs are fully capable of bonding with their humans and their livestock. This idelogy came from when LGD's were first brought over and land was 1000 acres or more and humans were not traveling with the herd/flock. It was meant to prevent dogs running off. This is no longer farming in America, now we are looking at smaller farms and LGD's that are in a much different environment.
~ Training and bonding that develops between you and the dog is how the dog learns to and always will respect you. 
~ The breeder ... most do not assess pups for the environment they are going to and have the attitude all my doogs are fine... maybe however more often than not the new owner goes through a great deal of working with a dog because it wasn't properly matched, or reared.

Yelling no and noises  are not the best form of correction for a pup that chases or nips. It is an immediate neck to back roll, must be swift fast and forceful... everytime.  

The fact your dog put his mouth on you already says  he doesn't respect you, although I believe he may know this wasn't good.
At 6 months old he should be fully trustworthy with the livestock.

You will need to retrain him. I would recommend a training collar with tone pulse and shock. The collar must be used properly, not just shocking the dog. Use the minimal amount of correction possible. 

The thing that really disturbs me in this is when you tried to flip him he freaked out and put his mouth on you. As a trainer, this is a serious problem to correct, and raises many flags. He has already determined you are not alpha. 

A few things to consider... does he do this at the same time of day? Do you take him out for out of field "playtime"?... this helps dogs with excessive energy to get that energy out productively and not in unacceptable ways.

Without knowing how he was raised up and what "training" he has had it is difficult to say where things need to change. I would however not allow this I'm staying away from you and going to Daddy thing.  

I am so sorry you are going through this, it breaks my heart for you and your LGD.  

If you have some very large powerful bucks start there put him in with the bucks.


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## KinderKorner (Nov 11, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> ~ I often hear " I know it is a pup and will out grow it". This statement is not true. Often the role of alpha was not established and therefore the dog decides what they will do and what not. You can train this out of him but they do not just outgrow chasing biting. You will need to work with him.
> ~Dogs that have been put in the field and breeders that teach they must bond with the goats and never humans are missing it completely. These dogs are fully capable of bonding with their humans and their livestock. This idelogy came from when LGD's were first brought over and land was 1000 acres or more and humans were not traveling with the herd/flock. It was meant to prevent dogs running off. This is no longer farming in America, now we are looking at smaller farms and LGD's that are in a much different environment.
> 
> 
> ...



I know he "just won't outgrow it." While I think he will calm down and mature with age, I agree that correct training at this stage is very important. Which is why I'm asking for help. 

I also don't believe that LGD can't bond with humans and goats. Kuzco loves me just as much as he loves the goats. And I try to play with him everyday.

I use verbal cues first. But I also do the back roll if the verbal doesn't work. Which is what has alerted me. The back rolls aren't working anymore. He just struggles now. 

It doesn't matter what time of day. I often see him playing by himself several times a day. He has several toys, and we give him bones and things to chew on to keep him occupied. That is one of the first things I tried when he started playing with the goats. He will throw one of his toys and go "fetch" them, or he will just run around crazily goofing off. It's pretty funny. We also try to walk him at least every other day, but the past 2 weeks we have been really busy so he's only got a walk a couple times.

I'm not sure if I can get my hands on a shock collar.  I don't have the cash to buy one right now. But I'll look into it, and maybe ask around. My friends had a rowdy lab and they still may have his shock collar.

I also don't have any large bucks at the time. The goat he actually tackled was a buck. My big buck is at my mothers, but I may see if I can borrow him. They have never seen dogs before, so they are usually just scared and run, which is what happened with this buck.

Kuzco has also began invading my space. When I'm playing with him he will mouth me as he runs past, or he will be jumping around and knock into me.

I may work with him again today and just try to reestablish my dominance. Maybe I need to be a little more forceful and intimidating with my flipping. I can go inside his pen and if he mouths me, I can do the back roll. 

What do I do though if I flip him and he thrashes? I'm completely at a loss of what I can do to stop the behavior.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 11, 2013)

Well it sounds like you have done some great things with him so that is a real bonus!  

I know he is getting very large and very hard to roll.  
*Can you describe the average day with him from am to pm and where he is overnight?*

Yes, no mouthing at this point would be best.
If he thrashes YOU MUST WIN! This can be very difficult so weigh this option carefully. *If you cannot win don't do it*. Putting him in a lockdown and shaming him everytime you see him for a day or two often gets a message across. 

At his age he is coming into sexual maturity, which can present it's own set of issues.

Can you describe exactly when he started chasing, was it gradual, overnight, slow, playful at first, etc
...and also exactly how he does it.
When he is doing this what is his goal? Can you tell?

Lots of Q's I know, honestly the Anatolians are usually alot less likely to behave this way. Pyrs are usually the ones misbehaving!


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## KinderKorner (Nov 11, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Well it sounds like you have done some great things with him so that is a real bonus!
> 
> I know he is getting very large and very hard to roll.
> *Can you describe the average day with him from am to pm and where he is overnight?*
> ...



I'll give the rolling and shaming a try tonight.

I feed him every morning at about 8.30 and pat his head. Then I'm at work until about 4 pm, and he just stays with the horse. Husband used to walk him nearly everyday when he got home at 5pm, but now with the time change it's dark by that time.  So he's only been walked on the weekends. Husband usually just pets him and gives him a treat in the evening now. I try to go in and play fetch with him when I get home a couple times a week. He has a house to sleep in, but he prefers to sleep outside in the open. Even if it's raining. I've seen him sleep under the horse shelter once or twice, but I've never seen him in his own house.

When he was living with the goats he slept with them inside their barn, curled up against "Tippy" one of my wethers. Who even now is the only goat who isn't scared of him. 

He started chasing about 6-8 weeks ago. It was gradual, with him becoming more and more less submissive to the goats. Getting in their space, snapping playfully at them. The chasing really kicked off when I brought in a new goat who hadn't been around dogs. She was afraid and ran from him. He chased her in fun, and then started chasing the others as well within a few days. If he "catches it" he just romps on it, and mouths and slobbers on it. Just general mouthiness, not tearing into it or anything. He just wants to play honestly.The last time with the buck is the only time I've ever seen him grab ahold of the back and actually knock it down. Usually he would just run up and mouth at it's sides, not actually grab them. 

I picked Anatolians specifically because all the pyrs I've met have been more playful and misbehaving. Just goes to show you it's not all just about breeds.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 11, 2013)

KinderKorner said:


> I'll give the rolling and shaming a try tonight.
> 
> I feed him every morning at about 8.30 and pat his head. Then I'm at work until about 4 pm, and he just stays with the horse. Husband used to walk him nearly everyday when he got home at 5pm, but now with the time change it's dark by that time.  So he's only been walked on the weekends. Husband usually just pets him and gives him a treat in the evening now. I try to go in and play fetch with him when I get home a couple times a week.
> _*The break in routine can be part of the problem, routine is good and over time a break in routine and changing it up is good, sudden interruptions can cause some issues.*_
> ...



*You are so right! I hear so much about toli's and pyr's and usually I just shake my head. Lgd's in general really...* 

*Do you have an ajacent run or something small but not too small where he can be put beside the goat fencing? I understand you needing to seperate him of course, but I do not think putting him in with the horse is going to be of any benefit and may be very counterproductive in the end.

When he was a pup from 2-4 months you said he was pretty submissive, what did he do to show submission? What was his body language.*


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## Southern by choice (Nov 11, 2013)

you will need to expand your quote ... did not know it would do that so the post is in the quoted section as well. GRR


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## treeclimber233 (Nov 11, 2013)

When I first got my LGD I was also told to put him in with the goats immediately.  At around 6-8 months he was larger than the goats and mouthing them around the neck and shoulders.  I put some tabasco sauce on the tips of their hair.  That behavior stopped immediately.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 11, 2013)

That's a first! Never heard of that one before! Glad it worked!


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## KinderKorner (Nov 13, 2013)

Kuzco was introduced slowly to the new goat. 

When he was younger he wouldn't get too close to the goats. He was respectful to their space, because if he touched them they would butt him. As he got older he started grabbing their legs gently. Such as he would hide under their feeder where they couldn't reach them, then when they came to eat he would mouth their legs. He snapped mostly at their legs, or rumps. 

I don't understand why there is a problem keeping him with the horse? I think they like each other, even if they fight sometimes. While Toby the horse is eating, Kuzco will curl up in his hay pile so he can be close to him. It's rather sweet. 

He was submissive because if a goat would look at him with head lowered as a challenge he would back off and roll over. Same if I scolded him. 

The other day I did go in his pen. The second he tried to mouth me I flipped him to the ground rather firmly and held him down. He did thrash and scratched me up pretty good. 
I let him go when he calmed down and whimpered.

As soon as I let him go though he jumped up and starting coming at me even more, I thought for a second he was going to jump and knock me down. So I instantly flipped him again.

I think he seemed to take the message the second time because he calmed down considerably and keep a little distance between us instead of crowding my space.

I played with him a little and when I saw him coming towards me to mouth me I spoke in a harsh tone and he instantly dropped to his back. 

He didn't try it again.

The next day when I went to feed him as I approached his bowl he flipped onto his back again. I hadn't said anything.

So a little progress. I think if I keep re establishing my dominance he will quit challenging me. Then we can start working with the goats again.


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## KinderKorner (Nov 13, 2013)

Once I think he is ready I can move my biggest goat, a wether into the horse pen with him. (The wether is supposed to be in with the horse anyway, but I had to separate him from Kuzco.)

I think he would be less likely to put up with rough behavior, and I can work on them one on one, without fearing that Kuzco will hurt some of the littler goats or my does. 

I think this time I will tie Kuzco on a light long leash. That way the goat will be able to get away from him, and I won't have to fear that he will hurt it before I could get to them is he starts chasing again. 

Oh course it will be a while before we are that far.

And firstly I will just walk Kuzco in with the goats on a tight leash and correct any bad behavior and praise the good. This is for Kuzco, and so the goats become more confident around him as well. 

I'm hoping we can work through this, and he will be a great guardian yet. He really can be a great dog, he's just going through a rough patch.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2013)

I think with your diligence and perseverance he will be able to overcome his faults. 
Sounds like you are doing a great job with reminding him of his manners!  



> As he got older he started grabbing their legs gently. Such as he would hide under their feeder where they couldn't reach them, then when they came to eat he would mouth their legs. He snapped mostly at their legs, or rumps.



how did you work with this to correct it?



> I don't understand why there is a problem keeping him with the horse? I think they like each other, even if they fight sometimes. While Toby the horse is eating, Kuzco will curl up in his hay pile so he can be close to him. It's rather sweet.



I bet it is a beautiful picture too! It isn't so much of a problem but ultimately you want him with the goats for protection. The concern is that, too long and he may "bond" only with the horse. Anatolians are very "bondy" I think much more so than many pyrs, maremmas. Once an anatolian deems something His/hers it _*IS*_ his/hers.. period.   LOL!

I have been meaning to ask... what kind of goats do you have? I don't remember. 

For working with the larger herd, if you have a smaller area... like a lot or quarantine area, take a few does in with Kuzco and work with him in the smaller environment. This will help you to be right there for any misbehavior and it also forces the goats to take a stand if they don't have the room to run.

*There is clearly progress and hopefully you are encouraged*.  

My one male pyr decided to jump up and say Hi... farm partner started this (I was not happy)... anyway the dog is huge and so when I grabbed his collar..._ he helps me in his correction_... he flails _himself_ down :/ and gives the look... Love you mommy!


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## KinderKorner (Nov 13, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> how did you work with this to correct it?



Anytime he played rough with the goats I instantly said "Kuzco! Back off!" in a authoritative voice. Usually (well used too) that was enough for him and he would stop and move away from them and roll onto his back. If he didn't listen and continued, I would flip him.




> I bet it is a beautiful picture too! It isn't so much of a problem but ultimately you want him with the goats for protection. The concern is that, too long and he may "bond" only with the horse. Anatolians are very "bondy" I think much more so than many pyrs, maremmas. Once an anatolian deems something His/hers it _*IS*_ his/hers.. period.   LOL!
> 
> I have been meaning to ask... what kind of goats do you have? I don't remember.
> 
> For working with the larger herd, if you have a smaller area... like a lot or quarantine area, take a few does in with Kuzco and work with him in the smaller environment. This will help you to be right there for any misbehavior and it also forces the goats to take a stand if they don't have the room to run.



I do worry a little that he will bond with the horse more than the goats. But he still loves them at this time. Their manger is close to "his" fence, and he will lay up against the fence to be close to them. He also has about a dozen holes dug where he tried to squeeze into their pen. I've got them blocked up, but I am worried one day he will dig under while I'm gone and hurt one. I will make sure to begin talking him for walks in their pen for supervised visits right away. So he continues bonding with them.

I have Kinder goats. They are a Pygmy and Nubian cross. So they aren't tiny, but they are smaller than normal sized goats. They weigh around 100 - 120 pounds. And about 24"-26" tall.

I do have a smaller pen I can set up, so I can start working with them. Good idea!


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## KinderKorner (Nov 13, 2013)

When he was in with them, before the chasing started he was great. When they went out in the pasture, he followed them even as a little puppy, and always stayed close to them. I was impressed from the very beginning. 

Even now he is still protective of them. If the cats climb through the window into the goat barn he will bark at them when he can't see them anymore. They are fine in the pasture but as soon as they go inside and they aren't visible anymore he will barn until they come back out. 

Or yesterday we drew blood samples and moved goats around. They were all crying and hollering. He paced the fence and was on edge. When my mother left with a goat in her car that was screaming of course from being taking away from her friends Kuzco chased the car down the drive way, (inside his pen) growing and barking. I almost thought he was going to jump the fence to go after "his baby."

So he does have some guarding instinct in there. He wants to protect his goats, but it's like he doesn't understand that they need protected from him.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2013)

Well he *clearly* has his instinctual guarding abilities! That is good news! 
As a pup when he first started, and I only share this for others (nothing you can do about it now), first time "no"... 2nd time flip each and everytime. Usually within 3-4x max... it is permanently nipped in the bud. 

Your Kuzco ( i love the name by the way) is obviously very smart and has good instinct... just a little misguided at the moment. 
I like working with a 30 ft training lead, however, when they get too big and too much weight a 30 ft lead can put you on the ground when they "take off" . When working with him right now, put him on the ground and really get in his face. Of course praise is even more important.


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## CentexSweetheart (Nov 16, 2013)

So you seem like you're figuring it out now, but I thought I'd just mention a few things I've picked up while working with dogs. (I haven't worked with LGD's specifically so I could have this all backwards, but I have several years experience working in kennels, shelters, and as a self employed dog care provider, I thought I'd at least say something and if you already knew that, or it's not right for LGD's then you just wasted five minutes reading a post from a newb that doesn't know what she's talking about.) Anyways, I've helped people with their pet dogs, and I was thinking, if you'd like there are a few things you can do to give him a better understanding (in his language) that you are the alpha. 

Firstly, when you're being assertive and scolding or trying to call him off and he's ignoring you, what octave are you speaking in? Dogs don't speak human, they judge by our tones and inflections how they should react to whatever comes out of your mouth. So if you speak in the deepest voice you can, to him you should sound bigger badder and in charge.

Second, I understand you can't always have your attention on him when you're tending flock, but if you can catch him getting ready to do something wrong, and "warn" him before he does it, you might have an easier time getting the message across if he goes ahead and goes through with it. Best way I've found to do this (I usually did this to stop a dog fight before it started, the kennel I used to work in had community play yards even for the bigger dogs and sometimes the brattier ones would try to crown themselves king). If I saw a dog getting ready to challenge another I'd put myself between them, and square up to him. If he attempted to move around me, I would block his path, and make a low "buh" sort of sound in my throat to better get their attention (it sort of mimics a growl) so they knew I was in charge, and it wasn't going to happen on my watch. If they continued to try to ignore me, then it was time to remove the instigator from the yard, for a little time out. So it's not fool proof, but most dogs got the message the first time.*

Third, when you accompany him in or out of any enclosure, who goes first? Even if he's on leash, you should be the first one through every door (or gate). The alpha literally goes first in every aspect of pack life. The closest he should ever be to in the lead is at your heels. On a similar note, when you feed him, make him sit before you set the bowl down, and make him wait until you give him permission to eat. I always rattle my dogs food around in the bowl and try to make it look like I'm eating my fill first, to remind him that I'm the alpha, every morning. (It works for my dog, he whines like he's worried he won't get any).

Fourth, I'm sure it's hard when you're worried you're giant dog is going to maim or kill one of your little ones, but stay as calm as possible, tiny subtle changes in your body language can tip your dog off to the fact that you're anxious. It'll make him anxious and he won't know why or what to do, which can easily cause the situation to escalate, which may be what happened the one instance you mentioned where he actually seemed to be aggressive.

Two other small things, if you play tug-of-war or anything similar, never let him win. If he's too strong, let it go and walk away like you don't want it anymore, and if he always seems to win, I would recommend not playing at all anymore. The other thing is while he's still young, another way to correct him (similar but much less dramatic than y'alls backflip technique) is to quickly and sharply grab at his snout, ears, top of his head, scruff, or hind quarters, basically you're using your hand as his mother would use her mouth to tell him to cut it out.

That's all I can think of at the moment, but I hope it's at least somewhat useful. I know they're little things, that seem trivial, but if you can incorporate even just one of them, it may surprise you.

*also I feel I should probably mention, there was always at least one other kennel worker in the community yards with me, I would never recommend standing between two dogs about to go at it, if you're alone, and definitely not when you don't know the challenger and challengee. I was familiar with the dogs that stayed at the kennel, and I always always had back up.

PS kudos on the flipping thing. I imagine as long as you keep that up, it should do wonders for reasserting your dominance. I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought it was silly, I totally agree with it, I was just saying that my physical scold technique seems small in comparison.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 16, 2013)

@CentexSweetheart  really liked your post and for the pet world all you have recommended are right on!  

LGD breeds are a little different in how you play, train and work with them. I share this with you as you clearly have a passion for working with dogs! A few things about LGD's that will help you to understand these breeds better....


CentexSweetheart said:


> _Two other small things, if you play tug-of-war or anything similar, never let him win. If he's too strong, let it go and walk away like you don't want it anymore, and if he always seems to win, I would recommend not playing at all anymore._


Playing tug of war with a LGD breed is *never *recommended. This promotes unwanted behaviors in the livestock guardian. As well as ball throwing/fetch type activities.
If I was working with a GSD in Schutzund they *ALWAYS* get to win. Training for different purposes and individual breeds there are different rules so to speak.



CentexSweetheart said:


> _The other thing is while he's still young, another way to correct him (similar but much less dramatic than y'alls backflip technique) *is to quickly and sharply grab at his snout, ears, top of his head, scruff, or hind quarters*, basically you're using your hand as his mother would use her mouth to tell him to cut it out._



These are not typical techniques for the LGD, to the LGD this is challenging and promotes mouthing and biting. For some LGD's that are having a problem with prey drive (undesirable quality in LGD) it will exacerbate the problem. These are the techniques in which the LGD uses to take down it's prey so it is promoting that behavior, they will do it more as this is play... some lgd's depending on age find this to be "striking" at them which they do not do well with. Can also make them handshy.

The nature of the LGD is very different from all other breeds. I hope you one day (I read your post about your future farm) get to experience these incredible amazing stubborn pig-headed intelligent majestic dogs!


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## CentexSweetheart (Nov 17, 2013)

Thanks for the pointers I'll keep them in mind. As I said in the post (I think... I know I meant to) I was just mentioning a few of the ways I knew to assert dominance over a pet dog. I figured they were probably at least a little different, but with as much as I've seen you post about LGD training yourself, I figured you'd be around shortly to tell people not to listen to me if I was wrong (and you did!) haha. 

And I do look forward to the day I'll be able to work with them as well. Thank you so much for the correction I really do appreciate it. It really shows me I have a lot more research to do before I'm ready to dive in.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2013)

CentexSweetheart said:


> Thanks for the pointers I'll keep them in mind. As I said in the post (I think... I know I meant to) I was just mentioning a few of the ways I knew to assert dominance over a pet dog. I figured they were probably at least a little different, but with as much as I've seen you post about LGD training yourself, I figured you'd be around shortly to tell people not to listen to me if I was wrong (and you did!) haha.
> 
> And I do look forward to the day I'll be able to work with them as well. Thank you so much for the correction I really do appreciate it. It really shows me I have a lot more research to do before I'm ready to dive in.



Oh please don't take it that way.    If you ever have the privilege of owning a working LGD you will see just how much your current training abilities are applicable! You will use many of your observation techniques and training skills, but will learn to modify them for the LGD breeds. They are working dogs, but not like most _working breeds._ You will be amazed at also how different these dogs are. I always say they really are their own species! I am amazed daily with these dogs, never worry about my livestock and always know that I can trust these dogs to know what to do and when to do it. No one really owns a LGD... they "own" you, they have this incredible way of changing your life. When they get injured or hurt it is devastating. The loyalty of these dogs is unsurpassed. I look forward to your journey into farming and livestock, it is an adventure for sure!


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## CentexSweetheart (Nov 17, 2013)

I didn't take it negatively at all! I'm so sorry, re-reading my post now, I was a little negative and I apologize. As I've said before I'm here to learn, and constructive criticism is one of the best ways. I truly appreciate your input, I've not been here long and you've already helped me learn and shown me that even in areas I may think I know there's still a lot for me to learn. Even if I sound a little put down, I probably don't mean it that way. I can't thank anyone enough for any information that might help me be as successful as possible.


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## KinderKorner (Nov 18, 2013)

Oops! I've been playing tug of war and fetch with  Kuzco all along. Although he has gotten to the point he doesn't care for fetch anymore. 

If I can't do that with him, what other ways can I play with him and stimulate him?

I've been working with him a lot. It's still a work in progress. I took him in with the goats for a long time Yesterday. I even let him "off leash." (I left a 10ft rope dragging behind him so I could grab it if need be) 

He is perfectly fine being in with them and he doesn't bother them. Such as they will eat out of the hay manger when he is laying beside it.  But if something spooks them and they run it instantly triggers a chase for him. 

I had to flip him a couple more times. Although now when he does something naughty and he sees me coming at him he just flips himself. 

He was okay with the goats but the worst thing he did is corner the cat inside the fence. Every time she gets inside he chases her. She turned on him when cornered and scratched his nose, then she tried to dart through, and he managed to catch her back end when she got half way though. 

He didn't clamp hard, and he let her go as soon as I got close and flipped himself, but she was quite slobbered on.

I think a shock collar would be the way to go on him. I'm still waiting to hear back from my friends. Otherwise I'll just have to buy one myself.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 18, 2013)

We run our dogs and wrestle all in fun, we play "hide" and we find most of the time they just like to show off for us... by that they will run as fast as they can and dart around and come barrelling back straight for us and stop or turn on a dime to just avoid knocking into us. This can be dangerous... LOL... we "brace" our selves because every once in a while they will miscalculate.
Fetch and tug of war are big no-no's... now if they pick up a flower pot of log and run with it that is ok, they are self entertaining, sometimes we say "I want that - give me that" the dogs know our voices are playing and it is in no way a command so they take off and them run up like they are giving it to us just to run again... they LOVE this. then they tire and crash in our laps and get loved on. This also promotes that bonding and love/respect for the master. Now if they knock into us they are scolded- "watch out- what are you doing- bad boy- be careful!"

The next part you mentioned if the goats get spooked and they run he chases.. not being ignorant here, could you describe in detail exactly what he does. Better, if you can video it you can always e-mail it to me. I am wondering if there is confusion.
Typically if goats get spooked the dog will leap into action to find the threat, and boy can they move fast. Some dogs will immediately try to hold back the animals to keep them in place so they can investigate. We have teams so it makes everything easier when  something is causing the goats to spook.

The cat- well you might not be happy with this BUT the cat is fair game if it goes in his field. That is how we handle it here. Our dogs are all ok with the cats BUT not in the fields. The cats do not go in the fields. They have learned. We have an area sometimes used by goats and dogs where the cats go but they are less intense about the cats being there because it isn't really "their" field.

Be careful with giving too much slack... you can seriously hurt  by grabbing or stepping on the lead when he takes off. Ask me how I know.  I was working a GSD on a 30 ft lead, suddenly she took off, I was not prepared (my own fault) and she had been right beside me so she had power, strength, and momentum.... I flew through the air, landed face and shoulder first.  

Robbin had a good recommendation for a collar!


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## Robbin (Nov 18, 2013)

KinderKorner said:


> I think a shock collar would be the way to go on him. I'm still waiting to hear back from my friends. Otherwise I'll just have to buy one myself.


Collars have a great advantage over all other physical correction means. You can correct instantly, from any distance. So the behavior you want to stop is occurring when the correction is given, not 30 seconds later after you have caught up to them.
Another HUGE advantage is you don’t have to overpower an adult Anatolian to correct him.  Mine is a brute and strong as a bull, I really don’t want to physically fight with him and I couldn’t catch him if my life depended on it.
One thing to watch out for, the dog must KNOW it is correction coming from you. If you yell NO, just before the correction, they figure it out really fast. But I've read that they can associate the shock with another animal or person and be dangerous. So the first time you mildly shock them, you don't want them to have their mouth on a goat. Start with very short, mild stimulation. Not even painful, but it gets their attention and work up if needed. You need to be sure the dog understands the correction.  And a collar can't fix everything.  Toli grew up chasing cats, they are his cats, he doesn't hurt them unless he steps on them. The cats loved it and teased Toli into chasing them and I allowed it without realizing how detrimental it would be in the long run.  Now that he can catch them and he weighs 120lbs, they don’t like it anymore.  So I’m training him not to chase them. So now he will stop when I say stop (no collar needed), but he chases them when I’m not there. So even the collar can’t fix behavior that is ingrained. It’s not magic, it sure won't correct my stupid mistakes.

I’ve shocked Toli 2 times, twice chasing deer, and I’ve used the vibrator function twice chasing cats and twice chasing deer.  But Toli is use to correction by a collar because I have an ingound fence.  So it takes very little to get his attention.  He knows what the results are if he doesn’t react to the warning.

There is a place for an e collar training on an LGD, but treat it like you would hitting your dog. I love my dog and would risk my life for him. I don’t want him living in fear of me. But just like my kids, they know there is a point where things are going to start going badly for them, and they didn’t (usually) go there. :/

With LGDs there are things that MUST be stopped, and an e collar can make a difference.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 18, 2013)

As a trainer I avoid collars and feel they are more of a last resort. I much prefer working with the individual to make them re-think and re-program. _*I DO agree that they can be effective when used properly and when there really isn't time to keep working.*_ Most behaviors are started at the 6 week mark-and incorrect correction and/or lack of proper training during imprinting stage results in many unwanted behaviors. Certain _"hard" _dogs will benefit from it's use.
These dogs are very smart and also know when the collar is "off".
Robbin is 100% correct, overuse will be counterproductive. Honestly most people think if they just shock the crap out of them that will solve it. It doesn't. 

KK I know that isn't you or what you'd do.  
Robbin you have great advice on the use of the collar.


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## KinderKorner (Jan 23, 2015)

I wanted to post an update!

We tried many things, including a shock collar but nothing seemed to correct his bad behavior. Kuzco lived with the horse up until summer of last year I believe. So he would have been around 1.5 years old. Then he began digging holes under the fence and getting in with the goats while I was at work. I was always alarmed, and would catch him and put him back, and check everyone over. Well it kept happening and happening, and I just couldn't stop it.

All the times he got in there, he never chased, or hurt anyone. But I was still scared. I talked to my local LGD mentor and she told me that he was just acting on instinct to be with his goats, and that I should show him a little trust. So cautiously I did. I allowed him to stay with the goats. He rest is history.

Almost over night he has turned into a wonderful guardian dog. Not had any problems since, except a little bit of food aggression towards the goats. He loves them, and does a fantastic job protecting them from an abundance of coyotes. I have personally watched him saved them more than once, and I am so thankful I didn't give up on him. He is truly amazing, and he really loves "his" goats.

Interestingly enough he hasn't dug out of a fence since moving back in with the goats. It seems as that is all he really wanted. I am so enamored with him that I actually have since gotten another puppy, because our predator problem is so bad. I worry Kuzco can't defend against all. (I can see up to 8 coyotes in broad daylight.)

Now we are struggling with the same things with her. Oddly enough she is almost the exact same age as Kuzco was when I first posted this. But going back and reading this post has given me great hope. I'm optimistic that she will mature and be a fantastic dog. 

Very pleased with both of them, and it's very cool to see their different personalities. They will make a great pair.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Jan 23, 2015)

That's great news!  The best thing about getting a puppy when you have a good adult LGD, is that the adult LGD becomes your partner in training.  My experience has been that it's MUCH easier than training a puppy all by yourself.  Best of luck!  I look forward to hearing how it goes.  Also, I think I speak for a lot of us when I say, pictures please!


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## KinderKorner (Jan 23, 2015)

Brand new pictures posted in my new journal!


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