# Help - new goat we found has some issues



## pippy (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment.

Today my partner picked up a young goat/kid from where he works that had been hanging around the site for the last day or so.

Two big things about it that we need help with.

- Front legs are obviously not working as they should. Similar to a calf that you splint when the pastern are to weak at birth.
When we first looked at him he was essentially resting on his knees at all times to eat, and the were bowing outwards. We have put a splint on both front legs as a temporary measure to see if there is any improvement - and there is a little bit. He is now walking on his tippy toes, but I'm still a little concerned as he doesn't fully extend the knee joint either. I'm doing some stretchs on the knee because clearly it is tight.
Has anyone come across something similar and do you think I'm heading along the right path. Essentially we are giving him a chance to hang in (he is rather healthy looking good shiny coat bar the next issue and in good weight) however if he doesn't seem to do well we will put him down.

The next thing about him (i have horses) is that he appears to be covered in what I would call rain scald was he a horse. Exception being - its around his ears on the edges near the base of the ears, a little on the back of the neck, all 4 legs have it, and worst is around the nose - where it looks quite bad and had cracked through the skin surface - almost wart or sarcoid looking. Any clue theres?? I'll give him a wash in some betadine tomorrow as a start, and I put some vit E cream on his nose tonight for the crack.

The other plans we have in the pipelines for him is to de-horn as soon as we feel it is the right time (get him in better health) and to de-worm. 

I have no idea how old - he stands about 40cm, and has tiny nobules of horns probably about 4-6mm up from the skin.

We have tied him up near the old doll house and put a bunch of hay in the house and he seemed happy walking around eating grass and bit an peices earlier, he is asleep in the house for now.

I would really appreciate any help. He doesn't scream vet to me, and I am quite capable of animal husbandry etc. so am confident in that assesment. But I do believe in quality of life and if he doesnt have it I will PTS.


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## Roll farms (Oct 13, 2010)

Could you post a couple of pictures, standing near a human or something else that would give us an idea of his size and breed (a rough guess is better than no idea at all...).
If he's a 2 week old standard breed, he'll need different care from a 6 mo. old mini breed.

First off, the knee issue *could* be a selenium deficiency.  I would get a shot of Bo Se in him ASAP and probably follow up with a second in a few days...dosage depends on weight...ask a vet.

Unfortunately, it could also be CAE.
http://www.goats4h.com/CAE.html

Also, goats are notorious for hanging themselves.  
I never recommend tying them, especially to something they could climb up on / jump off of.  JMHO....You may have extraordinary good luck with it....but I've heard too many horror stories.

The rain-rot-looking condition is more than likely mites or lice.  Ivermectin should clear that up, but it won't be quick or go away with just one application....keeping the area clean and moist will help after treating w/ ivermectin.

There's a recent post on this site about it:
http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6537
And more info here:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ig129

If he's under 1 mo. of age I would supplement his diet w/ milk...although it may be hard to determine his age.  Again, pics would really help. 

I would start him on some GOOD goat starter feed ASAP....offer him goat mineral....get him vaccinated w/ CDT ASAP.  Take a fecal in to a vet to evaluate for Coccidia and see if he needs dewormed.

I've found *usually* the only goats who get infested that badly with mites have a compromised immune system.  It sounds as if he's really young and if he's lost his mama, been upset, etc. that may have been enough to wear him down, and most goat parasites are opportunistic, they'll attack when goats are at their weakest because it's easy....so he needs good care now to help him overcome.

Good luck, please post a pic and keep us posted.


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## glenolam (Oct 13, 2010)

Agreed with Roll - pictures would help determine more.  If he's got little nubs for horns you wouldn't want to wait too long to disbud.

Did your partner or anyone else look around to see if they could determine where the kid came from?  If he's only a few days old, I'd suspect his mother would be around somewhere unless someone dropped him off for no good reason.

Welcome as well!


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## stano40 (Oct 13, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about dis-budding right now it would be more stress for the little one to handle with all his issue's.

I was told once that it's best to dis-bud during the first week of birth.  anything beyond that runs the risk of scur's developing after he is dis-budded.

Best of luck with him and welcome to BYH.

bob


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 13, 2010)

I would definately get a vet on board asap.   With the immune compromised you just never know. I agree with a fecal asap.  You dont want to flood with drugs.  Best to find out what your dealing with. I would get some milk (can be whole milk if only thing avail) and good goat feed and minerals asap.  And it does sounds like mites or lice for sure.  Treat asap.  And like Roll said...it will take time for that.  

Get pics if you can...it will help with age etc.  Also how are the poops?? Solid or runny??  And can you get a temp??  Are the joints swollen?  Somtimes when they are soo sick...they cannot walk very well...but it definatley could be something else for sure??? Hard saying without more info.  

I would also give some molasses mixed with water and baking soda...just incase it browsed on something it shouldnt of ate while wonderng.  That will settle the rumen a bit.  Not alot...just a small bowl of water, tablespoon of molasses and a tablespoon of baking soda.  It will also boost a bit of energy.  

Please keep us informed...Also...I wouldnt tie a goat either.  I too have heard horror stories.  Never a good idea.  They can definately hang themselves.   

Good luck...hope things get better soon....


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## pippy (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks for the welcome!

I'll answer as best I can - I have only got one picture from last night because it was getting dark and I wanted to get him in the doll house to keep warm - it was exceptionally windy last night (gusts up to 100km/hr) at least it wasn't snowing.

Tieing - I don't really have a choice about the tieing until we can secure him in another way - we have a big hydrangra (sp) garden that he already took a nibble on last night before I berrated the SO. Because of that I syringed a small bit of my normal concontion I give my horses (bran mash with epson salts and mineral oil) it may not have been the best thing - but it flushes them out quickly and I then mixed in some pro-biotics with some milk this morning. Lots of runny pops last night, and he drank plenty of water, he was eating last night - but he wouldn't eat this morning although he had the milk.

I was planning on de-budding/de-sexing once his health is in better condition. I'll treat with ivermec tonight.

Is calf feed a suitable alternative to A goat mix?? I already have some of that and it will be some time before I can get to town to purchase some, the supplies truck won't make it out for another 2 weeks either.

CAE - does anyone know if that is applicable to New Zealand. I've never heard of it (but then i've had very little to do with goats).

Vet can't make it out for a week, and same scenario taking him in. I have liquid Se for oral dosing - would you guys recommend giving a mL or so every second day. Than taking bloods to see the level when the vet comes to see if he still needs a shot? The Se also has Vit E in it (for easier uptake to blood stream).

The one picture I got last night:

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/2/7/6/2/0/cimg1968.jpg

(sorry I don't know how to get it up here)

Thanks all
Pip


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> You dont want to flood with drugs.


I've never understood this kind of thinking...  

Ok, so he stands 40cm high....that's, what, like 18 feet?  And his horns are 6mm, which I think means they're actually negative-4 inches into his skull.   No, wait...40/2.5 = about 16 inches w/ quarter-inch horns.  I'm an American, sorry.  :/

That's actually pretty tall to only have quarter inch horns, so I'm guessing that height's measured to the top of his head instead of his withers..  If so, I'd say this guy's probably a standardish breed and somewhere around a month old.

Pics would be handy.  An accurate weight to go along with those pics would be *super* handy.  

Sooo, his legs aren't working right...if I had to guess, I'd say he probably had contracted tendons at birth and gave up trying to walk on his front feet.  Bo-Se is good for that sort of thing, and splinting/physical therapy is an excellent idea.  He's a lil' feller yet, so I'd say he's got a good shot at growing out of it.

As for the rain rot...yeah, goats can get that.  Could also be lice/mites.  Who knows?  Given that it's cracked through, I'd do some antibiotics if only to cure/prevent a secondary infection.  I'd give PenG @ 1ml/15lbs 2x/day for about a week through an 18 or 20ga needle..  18 would be best, but 20 usually works if you're squeemy about sticking babies with sharpened stovepipes.  And if it turns out that it really was rain rot and not parasites, all the better that you gave antibiotics.  

Since he's already grazing, I'd probably also just assume he's wormy and dose him orally with some ivermectin.  Then I'd *inject* him with about 1/4 to 1/2 a ml of 1% injectable ivermectin, in case what looks like bacterial rain rot actually *is* an external parasite like lice or mites..  Some folks have luck just giving it orally and having it work for externals, but I'm in the "better safe and QUICKLY than sorry" camp on that one, so I inject.

I might go ahead and hit him with some Safe-Guard, too..  I do the 10% suspension at 1ml/10lbs for 3 days in a row.  Safe-Guard is good for tapeworms, if he has any, and even if he doesn't...still good to hit a new goat w/ at least two different classes of dewormers to ensure a decent worm kill.

I'd probably also go ahead and get this guy on some dimethox, as he's probably somewhere close to being in the right range to come down with coccidiosis..  Dosage is 25mg/lb of bodyweight on day 1, then 12.5mg/lb of bodyweight on days 2-5.  You can find DiMethox in boluses, powders, drinking water solutions, injectables, name-brand Albon, etc. -- whatever you find, break out the calculator to figure out how much of it contains 25mg of sulfadimethoxine and multiply that number by however many pounds he weighs.  Give it as a drench, regardless of what the package says..  Repeat every three weeks to monthly until he's big enough to hold his own with coccidia...usually 6mo or so.  If you can't get dimethox, see if you can get Sulmet...it's a close 2nd, and the dosage is exactly the same.  

So that's bo-se + splints + physical therapy for the legs, antibiotics for possible rain-rot and/or secondary infection, two classes worth of de-worming, treatment for external parasites, and treatment for coccidia..

After that...groceries, I guess.  Since he's male, strongly consider incorporating some alfalfa into his diet.  Alfalfa's high in calcium, which is good for boys; helps *prevent* urinary calculi, despite what other people will tell you.  

Aaaaand that oughtta just about do it.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2010)

I missed the last reply...

From the pic, he looks like a standard breed..  As for the liquid Se w/ Vit E....uhhh...I really dunno.

What I can tell you is that Bo-Se contains 2.19mg of Sodium Selenite, which is apparently the equivalent of 1mg of Selenium, plus 50mg/68iu of Vitamin E.  The dosage we use on Bo-Se is 1ml/40lbs of goat, but I've been known to put about 1/2ml in 10lb babies with no problem.

Figure out what 'strength' your Se/E stuff is..  If you can determine how much of it to give to equal 1mg of Selenium for every 40lbs of goat....well, if it were me, I'd use it.  People use selenium gel here in place of Bo-Se sometimes, and I don't recall hearing anything *bad* about doing it that way.

As for the calf feed...goat feed is usually balanced to have twice as much calcium as it has phosphorus.  If you calf feed is balanced that way -- which it probably is NOT -- then it should be safe.  If he's taking milk, feed him milk and hay...that's all he should need until you could get some on-label goat feed.

As for de-sexing him, wait until he's at least 8wks old to do that.  Any earlier and you'll increase his risk for urinary calculi.  I know you don't know his age right now, but I'd estimate it on the low end (like, 2wks) and wait another 6...or just wait 8 weeks from now to be absolutely sure.


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## pippy (Oct 13, 2010)

Maybe my horse feed would be a better alterntive than calf.

Its pre-formulated with Se in it (a bit safer than direct dosing), has 2x calcium than phos.

We don't have alf here, its either meadow chaff or lucern (damp with molasses or dry). I'm all out of either - so its going to have to be plain hay until supply truck. 

As to height - if you look at the weatherboards behind it - the bottom board is a 8" board (probably about 7" exposed there), so you can gauge height a little better off that. I was taking the 40cm from the wither - but that would have been holding the goat up so the front legs were as they would be if not "bung". 

I'll have to jump on the scales with it tonight  SO will love me bringing another animal inside.


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## pippy (Oct 13, 2010)

Is there way of aging by teeth?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 13, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cm,

Granted you are very helpful and knowledgeable about goats.  Dont get me wrong I appreciate your input and humor your share!   

But I personally feel when an imune system is compromised and you have no idea whats going on without real facts ie blood test/fecals,  I wont flood my animals with drugs. I only worm when they have worms.  I call my vet and find out whats going on and treat them with the proper drugs for the aliments they are having and/or worm load they are carrying.   Theres nothing wrong with that????   I am not a vet and I am just not comfortable with making treatment judgement on some aspects of their care. 

I also feel when an animals is sick with a compromised immune...I would not recomend vacinating them til they are well.  ie Cant get a flu shot when your sick....compromised immune...it may kill you....(not saying you said that but just trying to make a point of being careful when immunes are compromised)

This is the way I feel...so its a personal choice and thankfully we still have one!!!  

I hope Pippy your boy gets well soon!  Good luck with your choices..whatever they may be!    This is a good place to get differant points of views and make decisions that work best for you!!!


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## pippy (Oct 13, 2010)

Any comments on the horse feed vs proper goat feed vs calf feed?

I don't think vacc's will come for a couple of weeks once i know what we are dealing with. And i'll have to get the vet to show me where how - I do my own horses/cattle but not comfortable doing the goat!


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## Roll farms (Oct 13, 2010)

Goats need 'around' 16% protein in their feed, especially when they're growing...so whichever feed has a good calcium / phos. ration AND the higher protein % is the one I'd go with.

As far as knowing his age by his teeth...anything under 1 year will look the same, be it 2 weeks to 6 mos...only maybe a bit longer.

http://www.sleepyzfarm.com/toothchart.html

Everything I've read about selenium says that goats don't absorb it orally as well as they do when injected...so orally now, if it's all you've got, is probably better than nothing, just don't go crazy with it...but when / if you get a chance to get some from the vet, I'd still consider giving him an injection as well.

I'd happily come to NZ and help you out w/ the lil feller....send me a ticket.  

(Only teasing, but I'd love to visit NZ some day.)


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## pippy (Oct 13, 2010)

I recommend everyone should visit NZ if they get the chance - its a long flight, but so much to do in such a small space. 

Is there anything against feeding oil (like soyabean or flaxseed oil) as I have both and they will up the protein intake. The horse feed has 11% protein off the top of my head. 

I rang the local feed supply store and asked them if they knew anything of goats in general and explained the reasoning.

They seemed to think that given the season and weather we have had the skin condition is just from not having any shelter and being looked after. Recommened a Vit B shot, and given its colouring think its a wild one off the hills be left behind from mum. Said they are extremely hardy little buggers. Foot rot may be another issue - i looked at them and thought they seemed ok - but not indepth.


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## Roll farms (Oct 13, 2010)

I wouldn't feed oil to a goat.... that young especially. 

If he's a feral goat, then I'd imagine he'd do fine on a lower % feed....pampered dairy goats need more than a boy who's going to lose his luggage and be a pet.

That and grass hay should be plently....

I do like to add a bit of black oil sunflower seed to our goat's feed to help shine up their coats.  Make sure you offer him loose mineral.

Goats aren't as prone to footrot as sheep, but again, that's just what I've read.  

Best of luck to you and the little fellow.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 14, 2010)

Our goats sometimes get horse grain and do fine, I'd go ahead and feed it. 

The Ivermec was a good thing to do. It will help if he's wormy and also if he has lice or mites. I would also spray him down with fly spray or a good livestock sray to help with the mites if that is what it is. 

I agree with you on not giving a ton of medictions to a goat until you know what they have. All of the goat people I know treat for every little problem and then ask later if it was alright to do.

Grain is probably better than hay when he is so young. I'd limit the hay and feed only a small bit of grain.

40cm high is a little under a foot and a half and 6mm's is like less than an inch and a half just so that everyone knows. I'm a smart American!

His size is pretty small and his horns are pretty short as well. He sounds and looks pretty young. He needs a lot of protien and fiber while he grows.

As for tethering him out, it should be fine as long as you do it right. 

Tie him to a post with a loop so that it will swivel around the post instead of getting wrapped around it. I would also tie him in the middle of your yard so that there is nothing to get tangled around. You also want to use a fairly loose collar that is as low on the neck as possible to put less stress on the neck if he gets scared and bolts to the end of the line. 

Tethering can be perfectly safe as long as it is done correctly and in a safe manner. He will learn to untangle himself when he runs into trouble.

I love New Zealand. I've never been, but it is a place i would like to go. I wrote a report about the endangered wildlife there. I was completely fascinated by the diversity of living things that are found there. 

Not to sound stupid or stereo typed here, but have you seen a kiwi? I've heard that they are rare. They are my favorite animal and I thought I'd ask you if you'd seen any.

Your little goat is pretty cute. I love the floppy ears.

Out of curiosity how big are the ferrel goats? In terms of hieght.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2010)

pippy said:
			
		

> Maybe my horse feed would be a better alterntive than calf.
> 
> Its pre-formulated with Se in it (a bit safer than direct dosing), has 2x calcium than phos.


YES!  Absolutely!  



> We don't have alf here, its either meadow chaff or lucern (damp with molasses or dry). I'm all out of either - so its going to have to be plain hay until supply truck.


Lucerne = alfalfa.  Same thing.  

(I remember that because there's a car called the "Buick Lucerne," and it always struck me as odd that someone would name a car after a legume.  )



> As to height - if you look at the weatherboards behind it - the bottom board is a 8" board (probably about 7" exposed there), so you can gauge height a little better off that. I was taking the 40cm from the wither - but that would have been holding the goat up so the front legs were as they would be if not "bung".


Sooo, he's 16" at the withers and only has 1/4" horns?  Hmm..  I would think he'd had more horn than that, but...well...either way, you're talking about a pretty good sized kid here.  Almost certainly not a mini/pygmy breed..



> I'll have to jump on the scales with it tonight  SO will love me bringing another animal inside.


An accurate weight will be really helpful.   



			
				roll said:
			
		

> I'd happily come to NZ and help you out w/ the lil feller....send me a ticket.
> 
> (Only teasing, but I'd love to visit NZ some day.)


AGREED X1000.  

We had a travelling vet in this area for a while who sorta specialized in goats..  Cut his teeth on goats here, then when he got good at it, he moved to Texas where there are more goats..  :/  

I learned recently that his wife is actually a Kiwi and the two of them had moved back to her native NZ..

Sooo...congrats to that guy for living *my dream* I guess.  



> They seemed to think that given the season and weather we have had the skin condition is just from not having any shelter and being looked after. Recommened a Vit B shot


That makes sense to me, and if it's correct, it would only reinforce the argument for starting him on an antibiotic..  Rain rot's technical name is "dermatophilosis," and it's caused by a particular dermatological bacterial organism..  I had a goat who got a few little "strawberries" on her skin once and the vet recommended PenG or Tetracycline.

Like I said before, I'd probably just use PenG on this guy.  



> given its colouring think its a wild one off the hills be left behind from mum. Said they are extremely hardy little buggers.


That's too cool.  



> Foot rot may be another issue - i looked at them and thought they seemed ok - but not indepth.


If it was *rot* you'd probably know it by the smell..  Foot rot smells HORRIBLE.  Now, if it's foot *scald* you may not recognize that right away.  Trim the excess hoof wall down to the sole and see if that squares his foot up..  You can take off some of the sole to see if there are any pockets of infection or anything like that, but with him being so little, he's probably be quick to bleed if you took off much sole at all..

Next, check the skin on the underside of his foot, up between the claws of his feet.  If you see white powdery stuff or raw looking skin, he may have foot scald.  It's kinda like athlete's foot in humans..  

If he's got scald -- which he may, since he's been out in the elements -- you can treat him with something you'd use on a case of thrush in horses..  Topical products containing copper napthenate (Kopertox, Pritox, etc) are my favorites, but I know of people who've had success using products like ThrushBuster, Thrush-XX, different products containing zinc sulfate, etc..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Cm,
> 
> Granted you are very helpful and knowledgeable about goats.  Dont get me wrong I appreciate your input and humor your share!
> 
> But I personally feel when an imune system is compromised and you have no idea whats going on without real facts ie blood test/fecals,  I wont flood my animals with drugs. I only worm when they have worms.  I call my vet and find out whats going on and treat them with the proper drugs for the aliments they are having and/or worm load they are carrying.  Theres nothing wrong with that????


Who said we had no idea what was going on?  I feel like we have a pretty good idea of what's going on..



But you're right -- there's nothing wrong with going to the vet.  I'm a big proponent of proper veterinary care for goats, so I totally get what you're saying.....but here's what you have to understand:

I learned a lot of my methods by paying careful attention to veterinarians and other healthcare professionals.  The reality is that they're the world's worst for "trying" things until either something works or the patient dies.


Having said that, if a vet suspects that a given condition *could possibly* include -- or even just predispose the animal to -- some type of bacterial infection, they go for antibiotics.  In this case, the OP said the little guy had cracks in his skin..  Even if the skin condition wasn't *caused* by bacteria, the cracks still opens him up to the risk of secondary infection -- BOOM, he gets antibiotics.  Run that scenario past any vet you want...I *gaurantee* you won't find a single one who thinks an antibiotic in this situation is uncalled for.  

Now...can we rule out external parasites?  No, not really...not without a skin scrape.  Would a vet likely recommend a scraping over a simple shot of ivermectin?  Well, that all depends on the vet...if they like taking people's money every chance they get, they'll probably do the scraping.  If they're pragmatic, then I doubt it...they'll just give the shot.  Personally, I *appreciate* a pragmatic vet who won't demand that we run a $$$ test to determine whether to give an otherwise harmless $ shot -- just give the $ shot, please, and I'll keep my money.

Same with DiMethox...we could run a $35 fecal to determine whether or not to give $0.50 worth of Dimethox, but the reality is that lots of people raising goats -- myself included -- give DiMethox regularly as a preventative anyway.  I see no reason to hold off on that for this little guy simply because we haven't run a fecal.  Let's just call it a preventative and save ourselves $34.50...  If it turns out he was about to go into accute coccidiosis, we just saved $34.50 *and* a baby goat.  Where's the downside to that?...I don't see it.

And deworming?....good gravy....I've yet to meet a vet who knew the first thing about goats and did *not* immediately think of worms as the problem -- regardless of the symptoms.  I'm pretty sure I could bring a three-legged goat to my vet and say "This goat's leg fell off, doc!!" and they'd say "Hmmm..  When was the last time you dewormed?"



I guess what I'm getting at here is that I don't think I suggested any kind of "shotgun" approach to the OP, nor do I feel like I make a habit of suggesting that people flood their goats with medication *irresponsibly.*  As I typically try to do, what I suggested in this case is what I feel like my own vets would have suggested.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2010)

TheSheepGirl said:
			
		

> 40cm high is a little under a foot and a half and 6mm's is like less than an inch and a half just so that everyone knows. I'm a smart American!


Hate to break it to ya, but....FAIL.  

40cm = 15.7480315 inches and 6mm = 0.236220472 inches.

Also known as 'about 16"' and 'about 1/4"'.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 14, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cm,  Just so you know...when I said "I would'nt flood with drugs" you did not respond to this post as of yet.  So please don't take that statement as it meant for you...it definately was not.  It actually had nothing to do with you!!!    Its not all about you!!!   LOL  (Kidding)   It was a generally statement.  Almost a stop, look and listen before you go forward!  Thats all! 

That was my personal feeling about people with new "ill" goats.    I dont think you give "irresponsibly" advice with drugs by any means.   I was responding to your quote..when you said: 

"I never understood this kind of thinking"

So I went further to explain what "that" kind of thinking meant to me.   It was more to bring to light that its important to be more direct in the approach of medicating.  We agree!!! LOL  The OP is unfamilar with goats... so lets slow down and get the decision tree growing!!!     Was my thought process in saying that...best to make some decisions about whats going on
before "Flooding."

I have read some post were people would just give and give and try so much..and I never thought that always the best approach..unless you have sound advice and expirence! 

Believe me Ive had my share of bad advice...I actually listen to an old farmer who had goats for years (against my better judgement) and put cayene pepper on bleeding horn once... I learned goats are not a pot of chili!!   So really...you did not have to clarify yourself at all!!  I just feel its better to get a good grip on the situation (as you do) and move forward.  I learned the hard way when cleaning pepper off my goat!!  LOL   

Its all good!!  Keep on keepin on!!!  

Sorry Pippy. Did'nt mean to take your post up on this!!  Hope things are well for your boy!!!!!


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 14, 2010)

okay, so I was off on the mm's cause I forgot what mili means, but give me a break on the cm's. about 16" is about a foot and a half. I could have said 16" which is what it came out as for me, but I thought that saying 1 1/2 feet would make it more relatable and plus I was being lazy. what's acouple of inches anyway when you're guessing age.

You cheated and used either a calculator or a measurement converter didn't you?

1/4" is technically less than 1 1/2" even though it was kinda off.

I was just going off the top of my head, so I think that was pretty close.

That's better than guessing 18 feet and negative 4.(knew you were joking FYI)


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## jodief100 (Oct 14, 2010)

TheSheepGirl said:
			
		

> okay, so I was off on the mm's cause I forgot what mili means, but give me a break on the cm's. about 16" is about a foot and a half. I could have said 16" which is what it came out as for me, but I thought that saying 1 1/2 feet would make it more relatable and plus I was being lazy. what's acouple of inches anyway when you're guessing age.
> 
> You cheated and used either a calculator or a measurement converter didn't you?
> 
> ...


You will have to forgive CM, he is one of those engineer/science types.  Not exactly know for social skills.  That and most of us have that 1mm=.03937, 1=25.4mm in our heads. I did not have to look it up; I use that conversion on a daily basis at work.  I suggest trying to remember 1 ~ 25 mm, that is easy and close enough for government work.  
Disclaimer, I am one of those D!@#$ engineers too.

Back to the original post, I concurr with CM, deworm, delouse, Bo-Se, good protien and lots of TLC.  

I wish I could go to NZ, I have heard Christchurch is the most beautiful city in the world.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Cm,  Just so you know...when I said "I would'nt flood with drugs" you did not respond to this post as of yet.  So please don't take that statement as it meant for you...it definately was not.  It actually had nothing to do with you!!!    Its not all about you!!!   LOL


I've never understood THAT kind of thinking, either.  

 

I know it wasn't about me...afterall, I hadn't even chimed in until after you said it.    I also didn't really mean to make it sound like you were dogging me on 'shotgun' a shotgun approach in this case, either, though looking back I think I probably came off that way..  

I was just kinda explaining own way figuring out how I come to the conclusions I come to in terms of treatment, and how I didn't think it was shotgunning if you've got reasons for what you're doing.

That's all.  



> I have read some post were people would just give and give and try so much..and I never thought that always the best approach..unless you have sound advice and expirence!


My experience has been folks do that when they're in "it's gonna die anyway" mode, and I've been there/done that/got the t-shirt.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2010)

TheSheepGirl said:
			
		

> You cheated and used either a calculator or a measurement converter didn't you?


I knew that 40cm's = about 16" by memory the *first* time, just because 1" is about 2.5cm..  I coulda done the mm conversion, I guess, but I Googled that one.

The *exact* numbers were total Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V, straight from der Googles.  



			
				jodief said:
			
		

> You will have to forgive CM, he is one of those engineer/science types.  Not exactly know for social skills.


  

Guilty.  

I'm actually starting to really suspect that I'm an Aspie.  I've *kind of* suspected it for a long time, but I'm *really* starting to suspect it lately.  I found a battery of online Aspie-related tests the other day and took a bunch..

Umm...yeah.  :/

My "AQ" (autism quotient) score was 39.  Normal is 16.4.  The researchers who designed the test say 80% of people *diagnosed* with either straight-up Autism or Asperger's score above a *32*.

My "emotional IQ" is just over room temperature.  

My "systemizing" score is 130...normal for guys is about 60.

My "empathizing" score is 32...normal for guys is around 40.

My "highly sensitive person" score is 21...normal is like 14.

I did a regular IQ test, but it was just one of those hokey online things, so it's probably bogus...130.

In any case, I think it's just a matter of making an appointment to get a clinical diagnosis.....for whatever difference it would make.  I think it might actually be a huge relief.  



> That and most of us have that 1mm=.03937, 1=25.4mm in our heads. I did not have to look it up; I use that conversion on a daily basis at work.  I suggest trying to remember 1 ~ 25 mm, that is easy and close enough for government work.
> Disclaimer, I am one of those D!@#$ engineers too.


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## pippy (Oct 15, 2010)

Hokey pokey all. A Update.

The morning after the ivermectin - dead lice and/or mites were just falling off in droves.

Kinda gross.... couldn't touch him without coming away with a handful of iodine colour mites.

Not sure where I updated last - he got a wash in betadine, blow dried (it was bad weather that night and i didn't want him to catch a chill and he took it like a dude) then dosed with ivermect.

That evening (last night - I won't go into what days because I'm sure I'll confuse the rest of you if merely using mm/cm has confused some of you  ) I brushed him off, and had a bit of a good scrub on his legs to try get some of the scabs off and they were soft from the damp ground (I left him tied to the washing line pole and he had a pretty good free range of the majority of the back yard minus my gardens).

He won't eat the horse feed... grass it is. I tried a bottle of milk and wasn't interested - he took about 100ml (yes i'm confusing everyone again - that works out to be 3.4 ounces or 0.1 of a quart). Hay hasn't been going down to well either. Lettuce was good though - very very good.... 

So yesterday - when I checked on him at lunch - something was off so picked him up to have a good look, one of the splints was either too tight, or because it got wet underneath had irritated the leg and was swollen.. so off came the splint. A bit of raw skin and def quite swollen.
I re-did the other leg at the same time. My partner had put the splints on the goat before I had seen him and it was just plastic against skin (he has yet to learn good bandage and splint practices) . So we now have some gamgee, followed by vet wrap and 1/2 cast type splint with more vet wrap over top with the gamgee protuding above the vet wrap (let hope no accidents occur on my horses until i get to town because I've stolen it all for the goat). So the swollen leg went "naked" over night and the swelling was down this morning - no 100%. 

I also trimmed (after googling) his feet so the hoof wall was level with the sole - it had started to curl under. At the same time a good inspection was had on all feet and inbetween the toes the skin is a little flaky but not stinky (yay) and pink looking. So i've got copper sulfate which I'll make a solution out of to dip his feet in morning/night to get them healthy (er). 

As for the bent legs - the swollen one - I can now stretch out to 90% of full use, the other (right leg) is worse and is about 70%, an improvement. He got a small dose of sodium selenate given on the low side of recommended dosage for his size. And I think that has helped along with splint.

The right leg when naked - still bends at the fetlock when walking, but not fully - so he ends up walking on the front of his hoof. The left leg flexes but he walks on the toe and lifts the heel still. 

I'm going to give another bath today/tomorrow in betadine to wash off the dead lice, and then start applying topical salve to the worst of the sores (nose/ears and backs of legs between hoof and what ever the next peice is - relevant to the ergot on a horse).


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## helmstead (Oct 15, 2010)

To see what severe selenium deficiency looks like...click here
http://helmsteadstables.com/LG.htm

This is our sweet LG.  We received her at 3 weeks old, after a network of calls led the 'breeders' to us.  They dumped her in our arms and tore out of the driveway.  

I know I listed calcium deficiency on the website...but that was not the _only_ case (I just dunno...I need to change that!).  Our vet gave all sorts of BoSe and a whole slew of other meds...but it was too little too late.

Happily, LG is going strong in her 3rd year.  Winters are a bit rough on her, she tends to walk as a biped when it is really cold.  She is our bottle baby-sitter...she LOVES those babies and tends to them until they're about a month old   She also loves all of our dogs, and often has run of the farm when we're there to supervise.

I just wanted to post this so people can see that even a severely affected goat can live a happy and meaningful life...crooked legs and all.  (and also to show the importance of a good selenium program!)


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2010)

Pippy...sounds to me like you're doing a great job.


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## pippy (Oct 17, 2010)

At a bit of a loss today.

Thumper(as we have named him) doesn't seem to happy.

The other leg was swollen this morning - whether its from being wet and bandaged, or because I nicked a blood vessel when trimming his feet and its infected - I don't know he won't put weight on the leg. - So the bandage is off for the meantime.

Yesterday was wet and cold - he was tied where he could get under the lean-to off the house, and out on the lawn to eat. Thumper however decided to spend the day in the rain, and when i got back to the house he was cold and shivering - so wrapped him up and dried him off with a towel and put him back by the doll house (which he stayed inside) he then continued to call out for some time - so i got him back out and he went on to eat grass - i assume he was hungry as there isn't much grass around the doll house any more (despite the hay inside it). 

Today I've put a plastic bag over him while he is out eating grass to try avoid getting to wet with the cold wind we have, i'll post a pic soon of it (i thought it quite clever). I've used a stretchy head band of mind to help hold it in place. So I hope he doesn't get cold again.

I'm not sure what else to do now - it break my heart when he starts bleating when i walk away....  

I guess the vet is the next best option I think if there is no improvement i'll make a special trip to town tomorrow. Or the SO will bullet it if not any good tonight. :'(


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## Roll farms (Oct 17, 2010)

If it was me....I'd take his temp.  

Anything over 102.5, I'd probably give him Pen G for 5-7 days.
I'd offer some form of a probiotic, and maybe even give him a B shot.

I'd be real tempted to treat for coccidia as well, based on his age / weakened immune system...but I dunno how big of an issue it is there in NZ.

Can you get him a buddy goat?  He's going to be somewhat upset being alone, since they're herd animals.


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## pippy (Oct 17, 2010)

Head desk - why did i not think of taking a temp. Will do that asap. 

I took a nit comb to him at lunch today..... hordes of eggs EVERYWHERE. So many I can't get them out - any ideas?? 

Worst place I'm finding them are around the ears and face... I can scrub and loosen some up but argh - so many still stuck there. Never mind the ick factor - good for weight lose I don't seem very hungry afterwards for some time... never mind every time I feel a itch or tickle what I'm thinking! 

Another wash??? 

Of to do a google on coccidia in NZ and will ring the vet in the morning about it.

I am considering ringing the goat farm 100k down the road to see if once I have him lice free they will look after him until he is old enough to go in with the mini - good idea??


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## pippy (Oct 17, 2010)

Another question - how do you treat Coccidia??

After doing a NZ search it appears expensive/lengthy and involved? I would have assumed - being a parasite treatment is relatively straight forward for a small burden? 

Would you still suspect Coccidia if the fecae are normal?


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## Roll farms (Oct 18, 2010)

The fastest way to get them all would be to shave him down....but since it's getting cold, that's not the best idea.
Nit picking will have to do I suppose, I'm sorry, I don't know of anything else that will remove them.
You may have to wait until they all hatch out and give the ivermectin again to kill them....?  (Dunno if it 'kills' eggs or just the crawly ones.)

And there's nothing like dealing w/ animal creepy-crawlies to give you a case of the wiggles.  Once I find a tick on me I am convinced I feel them all over me for the next while.  

I use DiMethox to treat coccidia....I treat for 7 days then repeat at least once in 14-21 days, treating for 5 days.  If it's really wet / humid, I'll treat the lil buggers all summer.  It's pretty cheap and easy to administer as a drench.

I don't suppose you'd want to get a baby goat from the farm up the road to keep him company....?  
Being a young, new fellow (with no mama goat to protect him) put into a new environment, he's liable to be picked on if taken there.

In situations when I'm bringing in a single new goat, I try and pick out the least aggressive, same-sized goat I have and put them together to bond.  Then after they have, I'll reintroduce the pair to the group.  At least then, if both are picked on, they still have eachother to lean on / get comfort from.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 18, 2010)

Coccidiosis is a protozoa, so the treatment is different than for other parasites. It is treated with any medication called a coccidiostat. This is given in gradually reduced doses over a period of ten days. Another round of treatment is then given about a month later.

If the feces are normal I wouldn't think he has it, but the coccidiosis treatment won't hurt him, so you can treat just in case with no worries. Just go to your feed store and ask about anything that will treat it and they can point it out. There should be a few different kinds and the bottles generally treat about 100 gallons of water.

It can be given in an oral dose or in his water.

As for the lice eggs you can use a spray or a dust that treats mites. This will coat the eggs in the medicine. They will then die and fall off. If you can't get any dust, you could always just bath him again, but all these baths might be hard on him.

How are his legs? Is there any improvement?


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## cmjust0 (Oct 18, 2010)

TheSheepGirl said:
			
		

> Coccidiosis is a protozoa, so the treatment is different than for other parasites. It is treated with any medication called a coccidiostat. This is given in gradually reduced doses over a period of ten days. Another round of treatment is then given about a month later.
> 
> If the feces are normal I wouldn't think he has it, but the coccidiosis treatment won't hurt him, so you can treat just in case with no worries. Just go to your feed store and ask about anything that will treat it and they can point it out. There should be a few different kinds and the bottles generally treat about 100 gallons of water.
> 
> It can be given in an oral dose or in his water.


First of all, subacute coccidiosis doesn't present with scours, so a goat can have coccidiosis and *not* scour.

Second, everybody I know who's put coccidia meds in drinking water has only served to reduce the herd's water consumption.  Plus, when diluted that much, it really only works as a preventative -- and not very well at that, as I understand it.

If using sulfadimethoxine (aka DiMethox; albon) or sulfamethazine (aka Sulmet) the dosage for goats is 25mg/lb (that's 25 milligrams of medication per pound of goat) on day one, then 25mg/2lbs on days 2-5, given as a drench.



> As for the lice eggs you can use a spray or a dust that treats mites. This will coat the eggs in the medicine. They will then die and fall off. If you can't get any dust, you could always just bath him again, but all these baths might be hard on him.


That's the first I've heard of lice eggs just falling off from a dust or spray..  

You've had this experience before?


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 18, 2010)

It all depends on the type of coccidiostat you use. The ones that are made for drinking water are made to be diluted to the correct strength. The oral ones cannot be diluted. There is a difference between the two, generally. I have seen dramatic improvement when using both.

There are also other signs of coccidiosis besides scours. True, it doesn't always present with scours, but that is the main and most noticeable sign. Other signs include having a rough coat and acting lethargic, dehydration or lack of interest in food and water. These other signs would be hard to notice with this goat I think, since he has the other problems.

It is also a good idea, because some coccidiostats treat other parasites as well.

As for  the lice eggs, they will not fall off right away, but once they die, they dry out after a while and then they fall off. Given, they don't just fall off right away, but eventually after a few weeks, they do just fall off. It takes a while is all. 

So, yeah, I guess I have had this experience before. It just isn't as sudden as overnight or anything like that. The eggs did fall off eventually though.

A spray wouldn't hurt, though and might be better than another bath. If the eggs were killed by the bath before then they will start to dry out and die soon anyway.

I guess I should be more clear about things later on, sorry.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 18, 2010)

TheSheepGirl said:
			
		

> It all depends on the type of coccidiostat you use. The ones that are made for drinking water are made to be diluted to the correct strength. The oral ones cannot be diluted. There is a difference between the two, generally. I have seen dramatic improvement when using both.


The ones I'm talking about are Sulmet and DiMethox, and you can buy either one in a "12.5% drinking water solution" that's made to be diluted..  

With goats, though, folks generally dose those right out of the jug without diluting.



> As for  the lice eggs, they will not fall off right away, but once they die, they dry out after a while and then they fall off. Given, they don't just fall off right away, but eventually after a few weeks, they do just fall off. It takes a while is all.
> 
> So, yeah, I guess I have had this experience before. It just isn't as sudden as overnight or anything like that. The eggs did fall off eventually though.
> 
> ...


I just always heard that eggs take forever to fall off...just thought you might have known of a better way to get them off more quickly.  My experience with goat lice is limited, fortunately, so I didn't really know..  

Worst I've ever dealt with was a couple of day-old kids who were already EAT UP with them...pyrethrine dust killed the bugs, though, and there were no eggs to speak of.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 18, 2010)

I once found a drinking water solution one that was cherry flavored. I wonder if that would work for them. I'm always overly cautious with my medication, so I dilute when it says to dilute.

Generally when you dilute it the goats are getting the same dose of it, just at a slower rate. The treatment needs to be almost constant for ten days the first treatment set. The dose also decreases halfway through the treatment, so I used the dilution to help me with the decrease. 

I never use drinking water solution for a drench. It always seemed risky to me, but to each their own method.

I never had a problem with them drinking the water with the treatment in it. Some goats are pickier than others, though.

I have had some experience with goat lice and eggs. I was a newby and I didn't know what it looked like then. By the time I realized what it was it had gotten pretty bad.

I've also dealt with rabbit lice as well which are similar.


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## jodief100 (Oct 18, 2010)

If he is getting cold, you could make a warming area for him.  A small enclosed place he can choose to go in that has a light for heat.  

I made one out of a plastic 55 gallon drum.  I cut the bottom off, cut a little door in the side and hung a light from the top.  

If he is cold he can go in and get warm.  

I would recomend getting another small goat about the same size to keep him company.  They can snuggle to keep warm.  He may be hanging out in the rain and crying because he is lonely.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 18, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> If he is getting cold, you could make a warming area for him.  A small enclosed place he can choose to go in that has a light for heat.
> 
> I made one out of a plastic 55 gallon drum.  I cut the bottom off, cut a little door in the side and hung a light from the top.
> 
> ...


That what I was thinking too...he may be lonley


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## pippy (Oct 18, 2010)

He got a bath last night - it didn't do much good to get rid of the eggs, but it washed a lot of the dead lice out of his coat and he smells yummy now (tea tree oil and lavender wash). After the wash - a lot of fresh pink skin was showing where scabs had come away - they are clearing from his mouth/nose/ears. I'm a little worried at just how much skin/hair has been lost off his legs - but assuming it was the mites it will grow back soon.

He absolutly loves the blow dryer... rather amusing. 

He and the cat (well older kitten) we have slept together last night and I didn't hear a peep from him - so i think he got some comfort from that. 

Couldn't find the thermometer so have rung the neighbours to run up and grab theirs a bit later today. 

Its a lovely warm day today so he is about loose on the lawn, I fenced off the hydrangea and rose garden.

The leg is still swollen - although he is walking on it this morning.


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## TheSheepGirl (Oct 18, 2010)

Glad to hear he's walking better today. 

My goats always smell like grean apples after their baths.

My goats hate the cat. They chase her when she walks unknowingly into their pen.

I'm glad he found a new friend.

If he's walking on the leg then it sounds like it's getting better.

Those lice eggs can be almost impossible to get off. I would just leave them be and they should just go away once they dry up.


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## Griffin's Ark (Oct 23, 2010)

So as I watched this thread and read along, I am thinking, "Americans are trying to diagnose something in NZ, with standard American problems."  Has anyone done the research to see if NZ is selenium deficient?  Giving a selenium overdose is not a good thing.  And we have a tendency to stay with what we know rather the research all of the possibilities.   My First thought would have been chlamydial poly-arthritis (the problem seems to affecting the front legs)  and I would have suggested treating with 5 to 7 days of Oxy-tetracycline.  Also, treating an already ailing goat with Pen G is asking for rumen problems.  Why cause more potential problems?  Also if Coccidiosis isn't a real problem in NZ then the little guy could have a bacterial infection which again would be better treated with a tetracycline IMHO.  And yes I know that there are a lot of issues that can be caused by tetracycline, but quite often the good part outweighs the bad part.  The Skin issue seems to be taken care of and I would suspect the goats over-all health will improve just by getting rid of the parasites.  And lastly, if you are in an area not normally serviced by a vet, my first option would be to De-Worm.  Other that that I agree with just about everyone... 

Have a great day everyone!
Chris


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