# Deworming question.



## GLENMAR (Oct 25, 2011)

Since I am new to goats I will ask:

I want to deworm with Safeguard. I have the chart from Fias Co Farm to figure out the weights.

Do I just squirt the dewormer directly in their mouths without diluting it?

Do I need to withhold feeding grain?

this will be my first time.


thanks


----------



## elevan (Oct 25, 2011)

It is used full strength (no dilution) and I try to separate oral meds and feeding by a couple of hours if I can.

My question is why are you deworming?  

If it's due to a positive fecal, then you might want to discuss another dewormer.  Safeguard is ineffective in many areas due to resistance.

If you want to put your goats on a schedule then I'd encourage that you rethink it and read the Parasite Management thread in my signature.


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 25, 2011)

I did not understand all of it beause I am new. I have had them since June. One girls lower eye lid looks pale, so I thought I should deworm them.


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 25, 2011)

I am so confused on how to take care of them right. I read several books.  

I trimmed their hooves the other day. I think I did ok with that.  The breeder I got them from did not believe in vaccines or dewormers other then herbal.

I paid $1100 for these 3 goats, and I want to keep them healthy.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Oct 25, 2011)

I am also doing my 2 new does tomorrow morning before I feed them. They have big round bellies and a dull coat & I checked the older ones eyelids this evening after I fed and milked her they looked pretty pale pink. I am going to do it in the morning before feeding because I think they work better on an empty tummy. I did my other 2 new goats with Ivermectin 2 seperate doses 2 weeks apart and they are doing SOOO much better. That is what I'll be giving the new girls too. The 2 new does were on the herbal dewormer & did not get CD&T for 2 years kind of like your new goats I think the owner thought since they were coming from a closed herd that was tested & were not coming into contact with other goats they were ok. The 1st 2 goats, a doe & a buck, were only being given the Safeguard. After they are all wormed (the 2 new ones got their CD&T yesterday and I'll give them a booster in 3 weeks) I will not be doing it again unless they have a poor fecal sampling or appear to physically need it. I'm spreading diatomaceous earth out in their pen on all the feces & in their bedding. Between their new healthier diet & hopefully lower parasite load I hope the new girls do as well as the first 2 goats did after their deworming.  I'll be running fecals & having the vet out to run some tests next month. May even splurge for pregnancy tests for my 2 older does. I also put electrolyte booster in their water for 2 days after worming it has vitamins & pro-biotics in it. They love it. Good luck! There seems to be a lot to learn


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 25, 2011)

Should I use Safeguard or Ivomec?   Which Ivomec to buy, and what are the dosages???


----------



## that's*satyrical (Oct 25, 2011)

Ivermectin 1% injectable & I gave it orally. I don't remember exact dosage I look it up. Err on the side of a little too much rather than too little as they will more than likely spit some of it out no matter how hard you try to get them to swallow it & you will help to cause resistance if you don't use enough. Not a lot too much, just a tiny bit. Goats need more dewormer per pound than most other animals so make sure you are looking up the right dosage.  To weigh your goat you can weigh yourself then weigh yourself holding the goat & find the difference. It can be tricky with larger goats but I have minis lol. Safeguard has its uses but as a dewormer most worms in the US are resistant due to overuse. Ivomec is also safe for pregnant does a lot of wormers aren't so be careful about that. This may seem silly but make sure you take the needle off of it before you administer it orally so you don't poke their mouth with it. Fias Co farm I think has dosage listed on their site.


----------



## Bedste (Oct 25, 2011)

I too am new to goats and I am taking the advice of a friend who has been in goats for more than 20 years.  Here is a link to the weekly wormer that I am going to start using.  It is safe for pregnant goats, milking goats AND kids.

http://www.hoeggerfarmyard.com/xcart/Herbal-Wormer.html


----------



## Roll farms (Oct 25, 2011)

There is a lot to learn / know...believe me, none of us started out w/ all this knowledge.  It takes time and the ability to make sense out of 100 different opinions, and then modify what makes the most sense / works for your particular situation.

FWIW, I tend to trust what I read in / from University studies the most.  Especially ones in my region (what works for some in dry AZ will not work for someone in the hot, wet south.)  Having fecals ran and learning the FAMACHA method will help.  Talk to experienced goat producers in your area who have had goats more than 1-2 yrs.  

(My 1st two years of goat ownership were completely issue-free....I thought I had this goat raisin' stuff licked....boy did I learn... )

If they live near you, have healthy animals, and have owned them for 3+ years - they probably have their poop in a group and would be worth listening to.

Elevan's parasite thread is a good one, but it's a LOT to digest at once.

FWIW, the only thing I have any luck killing w/ safeguard is tapeworm (1cc per 10# of goat, for 3 days in a row), which typically will not cause anemia - pale eyelids.

That can be a sign of barberpole.  For that I use ivomec at 1cc per 25#, then repeat in 14 days, and again in 14 more days.*

*If a goat is seriously anemic (bottle jaw, white eyelids) I will start w/ a double dose of safeguard to (hopefully) kill some, but not all, of the barberpole worms.  You don't want all the worms to die off at once and risk the goat bleeding out internally.  I deworm the next day w/ ivomec and again a week later to gradually kill them off.  You will want to follow up w/ the vet w/ fecals to see if the dewormer is working - even ivomec is losing it's effectiveness in some areas.
If the goat isn't bred, I may use valbazen - not safe for preggos, though.

You're doing the right things - learning to trim hooves, paying attention to their condition.  I know it's overwhelming but you'll do fine because you want to learn.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Oct 25, 2011)

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/wormer.htm

Just be careful about the wormwood.


----------



## elevan (Oct 25, 2011)

GLENMAR said:
			
		

> Should I use Safeguard or Ivomec?   Which Ivomec to buy, and what are the dosages???


You should have a fecal done.  Until you become more comfortable with "knowing" your goats.  

The eyelid thing takes practice and if you're going to do that you need to know that it is only good at detecting ONE type of worm - the barberpole.  Once you're ready, you may want to take a FAMACHA training to learn how to properly check them that way.

Goats are a serious learning curve.  You're never gonna know everything.  Reference books are helpful.  Finding a local breeder / farmer to mentor you would be even better.

I know you want to keep them healthy but deworming when it's not necessary will cause worms to build up a resistance to the chemical and then it won't even work...then you're in a heap of problems.

Run a fecal.

Also know that different parts of the country (and the world) need different strengths of chemical dewormers due to resistance already built up.  In my area Safeguard is 1ml / 10# for 3 days in a row.  Ivomec is 1ml / 25#

Ivomec is quickly becoming ineffective in my area due to improper use along with Safeguard.  Get a fecal...it'll only cost you $10-20.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Oct 25, 2011)

Goats moving to a new place and/or just having kidded generally will have a parasite load because of the stress of these events. Most people would probably recommend worming in those 2 instances. Especially since you don't really "know" exactly how they were taken care of before they came to you. I don't necessarily think that worming brand new goats is a bad thing leading to resistance as long as you're using a broad spectrum wormer & using an accurate dose. Once you get the goats on a good nutrition plan & know they are being well cared for with appropriate goat feed, minerals & hay, etc. and they are used to the new place and have less stress they should have their own higher resistance to parasites. You can get a good idea of what your healthy goat looks & acts like & from then on know when you might want to go ahead & run some fecals and begin to follow the FAMACHA.


----------



## elevan (Oct 25, 2011)

The OP brought them home in June (4 months ago) and didn't say anything about them kidding.  Unless there is more going on here than we've been told.  Then I personally don't think that deworming without a fecal is warranted. YMMV

Do they have diarrhea?

Are they losing weight?

Is there something that's happened in the past 4 months to concern the OP that there is a problem?


----------



## that's*satyrical (Oct 25, 2011)

ahh, didn't realize it was 4 months ago. sorry.... I thought she had just gotten them...


----------



## elevan (Oct 25, 2011)

GLENMAR said:
			
		

> I did not understand all of it beause I am new. I have had them since June. *One girls lower eye lid looks pale, so I thought I should deworm them.*


Eye color is individual to the goat...so one doe may be naturally a little lighter...which is another reason to get to "know" your goats.



Unless, they're (eyelids) white then a fecal will save you a lot.  Those dewormers cost money, right?  And deworming with the wrong type won't do any good.
(If they're white then yes, deworm right away)


I know it's hard but don't overly worry  

Oh, and everyone on this board takes a slightly different approach to herd management, so you just wade through it and figure out what's right for you and your farm.


----------



## Bedste (Oct 25, 2011)

OK....... let me get this straight....... are you saying that we do not need to worm our goats unless we have a fecal done?  Is it NOT necessary to worm>?


----------



## elevan (Oct 25, 2011)

Bedste said:
			
		

> OK....... let me get this straight....... are you saying that we do not need to worm our goats unless we have a fecal done?  Is it NOT necessary to worm>?


No, I am saying that a new goat owner who doesn't know the signs to look for should have a fecal done.


----------



## wannacow (Oct 26, 2011)

Bedst, I'm new too.  I am using the Hoegger herbal wormer in the summer, like my mentor is using.  One of my doelings had scours this summer and her fecal was clear.  I think the herbal wormer worked this summer.  My mentor only uses it when she is milking so she doesn't have to "dump".  In the fall she uses a chemical wormer.  I'm not sure what just yet, as I'm still in "herbal mode" but when my does get back from the breeders, I will probably have a fecal done just because they have been off my farm.  All this info keeps rolling around in my head.  I think I change my future worming plans weekly.


----------



## DonnaBelle (Oct 26, 2011)

Is there a vet in your area that has knowledge of goats?

The one thing you will need is a vet that does have knowledge of goats, and is willing to learn some new things too.

I would suggest a fecal, take at least 3-4 nannieberries from each goat.  Make sure they are fresh out of the goat.  My husband fishes them out of the rectum, and they go in the same day in a clean plastic bag with each goat's name on it.

It is usually $15.00 per fecal around here.

The veternarian will tell you WHAT KIND of worm you have on board, and the appropriate wormer and what dosage and what method of delivery to use. 

Call some people in your area that have goats and find the best vet for goats.  A lot of vets DON'T DO GOATS.

As Elevan said, it's a learning curve, but as I have stated, I may be old, but I'm not stupid.

DonnaBelle


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 26, 2011)

I got them in June. One was a yearling. The twins were about 8 weeks. (not related to the yearling)
I was bottle feeding them a little when I got them. They were eating hay and grain well.
No one is bred. I was saving that for next fall after I am used to them a little more.
I joined Commonwealth Goat Club. I hope to get some info from the other members, but they have not met since I joined.
I have a really good Nikon Microscope. I work in a medical lab and was trained in parasitology. I am sure I could do my own fecal testing.

For now I would like to try the Ivomec 1% injectable orally  1cc per 25lbs. Then run a fecal in 14 days. How does that sound???


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 26, 2011)

Ivomec comes with or without 10% w/v clorsulon. I have some at home for my dogs that is 1% without clorsulon. Is this what you guys are using?
It is in a brown box with a cow on it.


----------



## Roll farms (Oct 26, 2011)

I acutally use the cheapo version 'normectin' from Jeffers rather than the name brand, but yes, the one w/out clorulson.  
That one (the 'plus') is to treat for liver fluke...which is a whole OTHER ball of wax, parasite-wise.

See what I mean about 'never stop learning'....?

You really are doing all the right stuff. Fiasco has some good pics about doing fecals / what to look for.

The twins could very well have a coccidia issue....wouldn't hurt to check fecals for that or just go ahead and treat w/ DiMethox or SMZ-TMP for 5 days, then repeat in 21 days.


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 26, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I acutally use the cheapo version 'normectin' from Jeffers rather than the name brand, but yes, the one w/out clorulson.
> That one (the 'plus') is to treat for liver fluke...which is a whole OTHER ball of wax, parasite-wise.
> 
> See what I mean about 'never stop learning'....?
> ...


So Ivomec will not help with coccidia?  Their poops are fine. They seem to have big bellys, but the could be just eating well. The pale eyelid is what I am worried about.


----------



## DonnaBelle (Oct 26, 2011)

If you have a microscope and know how to use it, you are way ahead of me.  

I just purchased a microscope and have printed out Fiasco's Farm's way of doing fecals.  I am in the process of learning how to do my own.  

Partly to save some money, but partly because it's very interesting, and I love to learn new stuff.  I have had trouble getting really good pictures of some of the types of worms, but I do have some black & white photos of the little buggers.

In fact, I took the boys out and got fresh samples this afternoon.  I'm going to do some fecals tomorrow morning.

I don't have anybody with pale eyelids, but I still want to do a fecal tomorrow, I know I gotta practice.....

For cocci you need Di-Methox 40%.  1 cc. per 15 lbs of goat weight, for five consecutive days.  It is administered orally.   You can call Hoegger's Goat Supply  and see if they have the 40% in stock now.  If not, you can use the 12.5% and adjust the dosage.  

I like the 40% because it is the concentrate and you don't have to use so much.  THE STUFF TASTES AWFUL AND THE GOATS HATE TO HAVE IT STUCK IN THE BACK OF THEIR MOUTHS.

If you don't have one, I suggest getting a drench gun.  It will hold more cc.'s and is shaped in a way to make getting it down their throats a little easier.  

There is another product called Albon that is dosed at a higher amount, but IT TASTES GOOD.  It's pricey, but I keep it on hand for Lenora who hates me when I give her the Di-Methox.

DonnaBelle


----------



## Roll farms (Oct 26, 2011)

Nope, coccidia is a different parasite.

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-coccidia-goat

Pale eyelids, if caused by a parasite, could be barberpole worm or coccidia...only a fecal would tell you for sure.


----------



## GLENMAR (Oct 26, 2011)

Ok.  Thanks for all your help. I am going to deworm with Ivomec since I have it on hand. Then try to do my own fecal test in 14 days and take it from there. If I can get a clear 

microscopic picture with my i phone of any parasite eggs. I will post them on the forum.


----------



## elevan (Oct 26, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Nope, coccidia is a different parasite.
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-coccidia-goat
> 
> Pale eyelids, if caused by a parasite, could be barberpole worm or coccidia...only a fecal would tell you for sure.


Yep.  Definitely consider testing / treating / preventing coccidia.


If you find that you have barberpole worms and your goat is anemic due to it - I add Red Cell as part of the treatment on my farm. 
More info here:  http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-goat-med-chest


----------



## Roll farms (Oct 26, 2011)

I don't mean to scare you, but if cocci is an issue, 14 days waiting to check fecals could do a LOT of damage.

F'real.  Cocci is nasty.  It kills.  When it doesn't kill, it damages the intestinal lining to the point where some goats *never* reach their potential because they can't absorb nutrients from what they eat.  And a big belly can be a sign of it.

If you are going to 'treat and then check later' for worms, I would do it for coccidiosis, as well...


----------

