# Crossing for Meat



## Ebers (Feb 3, 2016)

I have 3 young cali/nz cross does & I've recently aquired a 1/2 nz 1/2 flemish doe that I bred to a nz buck. My question is do you think if I keep a buck out of her litter making him 3/4 nz 1/4 flemish & breed him to my 3 young does do I stand to gain  anything as apposed to just breeding them to my nz buck? I'd appreciate any feedback or opinions. Thanks


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## Bunnylady (Feb 3, 2016)

A lot of people use Flemish in their meat breeding programs because the kits seem to get to slaughter weight faster. There is a compromise in that result, though - the bone structure of the kits is a bit bigger, so the meat-to-bone ratio isn't quite as good. Realistically, that's just a few percentage points; that may not matter that much to you (one production-only commercial breed, the Altex, has a significant amount of Flemish blood in it). And of course there's the question of hybrid vigor - you may or may not get better health and growth just from the introduction of different genetics. It's kind of a toss-up.


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## Latestarter (Feb 3, 2016)

If you have the cage space, why not keep the NZ buck set aside in reserve, save a buck kit from the litter and let him grow to reproducing age and give it a try and monitor the results? Then you can determine which worked better for your desired purpose and go from there.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 3, 2016)

There is a Flemish Giant breeder just abt 4 or 5 miles up the road to the North of here. If I had the space, I would definitely experiment with breeding one of my NZW does and keeping a kit that is a buck. I would then do this again and keep a doe from the cross this time. Then if I used the buck and the doe from the two cross-breedings, they would be 1/2NZ, 1/2Flemish Giant and wouldn't that create the next generation of a hybrid with potential of having 1/2 of the giant's and large breeds traits? No matter how many times I kept back a kit from the first hybrid buck and doe, wouldn't they basically still be 1/2NZ & 1/2 Flemish Giant? Can you field this question @Bunnylady ?

But alas, I do not think I have the space needed to experiment with. My original doe, so existing cage. A grow-out pen, so check on existing cage. A cage to hold back the first buck, so (1).
Now repeat process and would need a second cage to hold back a doe from second crossed litter, so (2).
And, a grow-out pen since I try to have one per doe to wean her litter into, so (3).


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## Ebers (Feb 3, 2016)

I was kinda thinkn with my buck bein 3/4 nz & 1/4 flemish depending on the characteristics of the buck I chose to keep outa the litter I could essentially get an offspring outa my 1/2nz-1/2cali does that wd possibly grow bigger & faster than my original nz-cali cross like you said bunnylady but that's a lot of hypotheticals lol. I was concerned about the increased amount of feed my 1/2 flemish doe eats in comparison to my nz does, I wonder if that wd subside as I bred the flemish out of them to the point we're talking about.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 3, 2016)

The problem with trying to do the math past the first cross is that you can't be sure how the genes will get inherited. Genes are packaged in chromosomes, and even chromosomes don't always get inherited intact. 

Imagine that you are holding a handful of pennies, and the "head" side represents a Flemish Giant gene, and the "tail" side represents a NZW gene. Toss the coins up, let them land on the floor, and then tally the number of heads and the number of tails facing up. If you do it enough times, you will get roughly 50% heads and 50% tails, but the results from a single toss could go pretty far one way or the other. That's a pretty good representation of how the inheritance could go when you cross two cross-breds together. It's even theoretically possible for an animal to inherit _all_ Flemish or _all _NZW genes in a cross like that (most people are aware that if you cross a donkey and a horse, you get a mule, and that mules are sterile. Actually, not all mules are sterile, some female (molly) mules have given birth. The foals had to be sired by either a horse or a donkey, of course, and there were some that showed a combination of horse and donkey traits, and some that seemed to be 100% horse or 100% donkey)

So if you cross your  NZW/Flemish doe to a NZW buck, you will have babies that probably inherit some Flemish genes, but just how many each kit gets is pretty random. You may get some kits that finish up exactly like pure NZW's, and some that are a lot more like their mother, and some that fall somewhere in between. If you chose a buck from that cross that grows up to be exactly like a NZW, it probably won't throw kits that show recognizably Flemish traits unless it is bred to another rabbit with Flemish in its background. Of course, the more times you breed back to the NZW, the more NZW genes you get, and whatever "hybrid vigor" advantage you may have had gets bred out, too.


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## Ebers (Feb 3, 2016)

Wow bunnylady that's deep... I'm so glad there's a site like this to gain knowledge from others experience!!!


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## Ebers (Feb 3, 2016)

It'll be worth a shot just to see what I end up with in my opinion.... it could apparently go well or horribly wrong lol


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 3, 2016)

Thanks @Bunnylady 
I appreciate your science lesson. It all sounds familiar, but so long since I had a genetics lesson. Kinda like taking a foreign language a long time ago, and can understand it when hearing it, but can't fluently speak or write it anymore.


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## animalmom (Feb 4, 2016)

Here's a consideration for you folks who itch to tinker with genetics:  do not breed a larger (flemish) buck to a smaller, in comparison (NZ) doe.  

My understanding in breeding a larger to a smaller is to always have the larger animal be the doe and the smaller animal be the buck.  

You don't want little mothers trying to birth big babies.  Not say it can't be done, but why tempt bad fate?


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## Bunnylady (Feb 4, 2016)

animalmom said:


> Here's a consideration for you folks who itch to tinker with genetics:  do not breed a larger (flemish) buck to a smaller, in comparison (NZ) doe.
> 
> My understanding in breeding a larger to a smaller is to always have the larger animal be the doe and the smaller animal be the buck.
> 
> You don't want little mothers trying to birth big babies.  Not say it can't be done, but why tempt bad fate?



Generally speaking, it isn't a good idea, but I think this caution needs to be taken into perspective. Just how "little" is a 10 to 12 lb doe? If there were a huge difference in the size of the breeders, I agree, it's not a good idea, but the weight for Flemish Giants starts at 13 lbs. When the Altex rabbit was created, Flemish Giant bucks were bred to Champagne d'Argent and Californian does, both of which are smaller breeds than the Flemish. Altex generally grow to at least 13 lbs. in size; yet for many years, they were being used exclusively as "terminal cross" sires over NZW's and Cal's in commercial operations.  I have seen does deliver "fetal giants" that were considerably larger than normal kits for their breed, so I think that, as long as a little common sense is being used, you don't_ have _to put your buck and doe on either end of a balance scale, and not do the breeding if the doe isn't the heavier animal.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 4, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> When the Altex rabbit was created, Flemish Giant bucks were bred to Champagne d'Argent and Californian does, both of which are smaller breeds than the Flemish. Altex generally grow to at least 13 lbs. in size; yet for many years, they were being used exclusively as "terminal cross" sires over NZW's and Cal's in commercial operations.



I do appreciate the concern of @animalmom in protecting the doe.
When I was a kid, we were probably getting started in meat rabbits about the time the Altex was being developed. We only had cross-bred mutts, and did ok in production and vigor. After we raised rabbits for ten years, I gave up rabbit raising for twenty years until late Summer, 2015. So to be honest, this is abt the first time I have heard of the Altex. I like the idea of a terminal cross sire. It would save me a lot of time just to research where to find them somewhat locally and invest in one. I do have an Intermediate NZW buck that I am just starting out on breeding, so it will probably wait a while because I do not have a reason to cull my Sr. Buck.
Thanks for both Animalmom and Bunnylady's help on this topic.


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## Ebers (Feb 5, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> Generally speaking, it isn't a good idea, but I think this caution needs to be taken into perspective. Just how "little" is a 10 to 12 lb doe? If there were a huge difference in the size of the breeders, I agree, it's not a good idea, but the weight for Flemish Giants starts at 13 lbs. When the Altex rabbit was created, Flemish Giant bucks were bred to Champagne d'Argent and Californian does, both of which are smaller breeds than the Flemish. Altex generally grow to at least 13 lbs. in size; yet for many years, they were being used exclusively as "terminal cross" sires over NZW's and Cal's in commercial operations.  I have seen does deliver "fetal giants" that were considerably larger than normal kits for their breed, so I think that, as long as a little common sense is being used, you don't_ have _to put your buck and doe on either end of a balance scale, and not do the breeding if the doe isn't the heavier animal.


 I agree as long as I'm not trying to breed a flemish to a dutch or something like that I think I'll be alright but it's certainly something to take into consideration. I know I  can't be sure which genetics will be transmitted to the next generation as you said in a previous post but the kits will only be 1/8 flemish


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