# Guardians for Goats in woods



## River Farm (Sep 19, 2020)

I was wondering if their were a livestock guardian that would do well in our situation. We cannot have dogs. we are in a forested area. And we have mountain lions, coyotes, bobcats, and foxes.


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## BellaM (Sep 19, 2020)

Donkeys? They are quite fierce and will put up a good fight. They also make one helluva racket making human intervention possible. Having said that, we don't have large predators other than the two legged variety - stock theft is a real issue where I live - but the donkeys are a big deterrent! Always have two or more, for company but also so they can back each other up.


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## River Farm (Sep 19, 2020)

I had thought that if you had 2 donkeys, they would bond together and not protect the herd?


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## BellaM (Sep 19, 2020)

Mmmmm? I think that's correct up to a point. They are very territorial and mine seem to think the goats are part of their territory 🤔. Regardless, they've definitely stopped attempts to steal my goats and/or break into sheds etc.


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## River Farm (Sep 19, 2020)

I need to be a very careful because we have many big predators out here.


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## River Farm (Sep 19, 2020)

I have also heard they do not keep out smaller predators like foxes. Is this true?


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## BellaM (Sep 19, 2020)

To be honest, I have absolutely no experience with big predators. The largest I have to worry about are jackals and donkeys are very effective against them. 
Let's hope someone with experience or firsthand knowledge weighs in?


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## BellaM (Sep 19, 2020)

River Farm said:


> I have also heard they do not keep out smaller predators like foxes. Is this true?


I don't have foxes so I can't answer that. Sorry 🙄. Although I haven't had mongoose since I got the donkeys but that could just be a coincidence or because the environment is changing so they've moved on.


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## Beekissed (Sep 19, 2020)

River Farm said:


> I was wondering if their were a livestock guardian that would do well in our situation. We cannot have dogs. we are in a forested area. And we have mountain lions, coyotes, bobcats, and foxes.



Curious as to why you cannot have dogs?  Donkeys are iffy....if they are raised with the goats from a young age and it's a single donkey, they may protect the herd though not likely against mountain lions~there's a thread on mountain lions here right now that was testifying to that fact.   They are death on anything canine, even smaller canines, like foxes.   

If not raised with the goats, they are just as likely to attack the babies when born, as I found when I got a donkey to guard sheep here this spring....about lost a lamb and its mother, who was trying to protect it from the donkey.  She also tried to stomp a LGD pup.   She got sold in a hurry.   Sweet as can be to humans, tried to kill any lambs or puppies she could.   

In a place with mountain lions, the only good protection at night is a pack of LGDs and many agree that Kangal, Anatolian or Akbash are the best against larger preds like bear and lions.   If I had mountain lions here I'd have at least 3-4 dogs in my pack and they'd all be wearing spike collars.


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## WeegMisty (Sep 19, 2020)

I would purchase predator replenant lights on Amazon! They work great for me! You could purchase predator pee to and put ti around the perimeter of your property to ward off foxes. What big predators do you have? I don't think there is a pee to ward off cougars, but cougar pee would ward off wolves, coyotes, bears, etc. Hardware cloth is a great way to predator proof your run or pasture too! Good luck, Avery


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## River Farm (Sep 19, 2020)

We need something that would protect them during the day. Which might mean deterring mountain lions (it would not be as hard as they are not as determined as at night) and fighting everything else. As to why we cannot have dogs, we are not able to provide enough maintenance for them so we want something a little easier.


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## Beekissed (Sep 19, 2020)

River Farm said:


> We need something that would protect them during the day. Which might mean deterring mountain lions (it would not be as hard as they are not as determined as at night) and fighting everything else. As to why we cannot have dogs, we are not able to provide enough maintenance for them so we want something a little easier.



How often will you be checking your flock?  Many people keep LGD out in the flock at all times, with continuous feeders in jump cages so the dogs can self feed and the goats can't eat their food.  I'll be doing the same setup with my dog as soon as I get the time to get his jump cage done, so I won't have to feed him daily.  Will still be checking on him and the flock daily but won't have to worry about getting out there at the same time every day.


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## River Farm (Sep 19, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> How often will you be checking your flock?  Many people keep LGD out in the flock at all times, with continuous feeders in jump cages so the dogs can self feed and the goats can't eat their food.  I'll be doing the same setup with my dog as soon as I get the time to get his jump cage done, so I won't have to feed him daily.  Will still be checking on him and the flock daily but won't have to worry about getting out there at the same time every day.


Most likely we will be checking them every day or every other day.


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## Beekissed (Sep 20, 2020)

River Farm said:


> Most likely we will be checking them every day or every other day.


That's often enough to maintain dogs well.  My dog works out in the woods, out of our sight quite frequently for days at a time, but I feed him daily and check the stock then.   Soon he'll be working even further away from the house and will be doing so all winter long, so we are looking for a partner for him...too much to expect a dog to work alone when you can't be there for support at any given time.


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## River Farm (Sep 20, 2020)

Okay, I will look into having an lgd.


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## Baymule (Sep 20, 2020)

Please educate yourself on LGDs before getting one. A good place to start is reading the threads in the LGD forum. There is lots of good information there and we will be happy to help you.


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## River Buffaloes (Sep 20, 2020)

River Farm said:


> I was wondering if their were a livestock guardian that would do well in our situation. We cannot have dogs. we are in a forested area. And we have mountain lions, coyotes, bobcats, and foxes.



A female with a colt is your best bet if you can't have dogs.


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## River Buffaloes (Sep 20, 2020)

BellaM said:


> Donkeys? They are quite fierce and will put up a good fight. They also make one helluva racket making human intervention possible. Having said that, we don't have large predators other than the two legged variety - stock theft is a real issue where I live - but the donkeys are a big deterrent! Always have two or more, for company but also so they can back each other up.



Huh, we called it cattle raiding. It used to be a problem here upto few years ago.


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## River Buffaloes (Sep 20, 2020)

River Farm said:


> I need to be a very careful because we have many big predators out here.



I tell you, donkeys will runaway leaving your goats to fend for themselves.


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## River Buffaloes (Sep 20, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Curious as to why you cannot have dogs?  Donkeys are iffy....if they are raised with the goats from a young age and it's a single donkey, they may protect the herd though not likely against mountain lions~there's a thread on mountain lions here right now that was testifying to that fact.   They are death on anything canine, even smaller canines, like foxes.
> 
> If not raised with the goats, they are just as likely to attack the babies when born, as I found when I got a donkey to guard sheep here this spring....about lost a lamb and its mother, who was trying to protect it from the donkey.  She also tried to stomp a LGD pup.   She got sold in a hurry.   Sweet as can be to humans, tried to kill any lambs or puppies she could.
> 
> In a place with mountain lions, the only good protection at night is a pack of LGDs and many agree that Kangal, Anatolian or Akbash are the best against larger preds like bear and lions.   If I had mountain lions here I'd have at least 3-4 dogs in my pack and they'd all be wearing spike collars.




Albais (central asian shepherd) is also very good for protection against large predators.


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## River Farm (Sep 20, 2020)

River Buffaloes said:


> A female with a colt is your best bet if you can't have dogs.


A female what?


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## River Buffaloes (Sep 20, 2020)

River Farm said:


> We need something that would protect them during the day. Which might mean deterring mountain lions (it would not be as hard as they are not as determined as at night) and fighting everything else. As to why we cannot have dogs, we are not able to provide enough maintenance for them so we want something a little easier.



Shepherds dog don't need much maintenance. They eat what the shepherd's eat, ours can also hunt.


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## River Buffaloes (Sep 20, 2020)

River Farm said:


> A female what?



Donkey


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## Ridgetop (Sep 23, 2020)

Donkeys can become feral quickly.  Llamas are also helpful guardian animals, but against cougars neither donkeys or llamas would be a match.  (Llamas are actually the favorite prey of cougar in South America - which fact we learned after getting 2 llamas to protect our sheep and goats from a cougar!  LOL  Oops.)  

LGDs are the best deterrents against cougar and bears.  If you have a pack of wolves in the area, you will need a larger amount of LGDs - at least 4-5 - to safely protect your livestock from wolves.  Cougars are stealth killers and often are deterred by barking of two or more Anatolians.  Bears are also able to be run off by several LGDs.  BUT this is only with normal predators.  If the predator is starving or very determined to kill livestock, it will take at least 4-6 LGDs to kill a large cougar or bear, much less fight off a pack of wolves.


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## Ridgetop (Sep 23, 2020)

By the way, you can *not* get a couple LGD puppies and expect them to survive, let alone defend your livestock.  You need to buy fully trained *adult *LGDs with experience in protecting livestock to be successful in this venture.  You will have to bond them to you so that you can safely approach, handle, and feed them.  You will need a minimum of 2 LGDs, probably more like 3-4 if you have cougar and wolves.  Once the adult LGDs are working, you can add 6-8 month old puppies to their pack for the older dogs to train and have for backup.


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## Baymule (Sep 23, 2020)

What @Ridgetop said. Putting a puppy in a field with apex predators around would be like tossing them a Scooby Snack. LOL


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## Beekissed (Sep 23, 2020)

Then one has to weigh the cost of all of that....are keeping the goats worth the price of the fencing and dogs?  I often see people investing a lot of money in dogs and fences to contain them, but it's just for a handful of miniature goats or a tiny flock of sheep that they are keeping for personal use.   

In some areas, the price of LGDs is just ridiculously high and there's no guarantee the dog will work out, won't wander and get killed or stolen, etc.   That's sort of like the people on BYC who brag that their first chicken egg cost them $2k and you have to wonder why they invested all that money for some eggs.  Not even close to being worth it.


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## Baymule (Sep 23, 2020)

Since you brought it up @Beekissed, my first egg cost me $732


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## Beekissed (Sep 24, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Since you brought it up @Beekissed, my first egg cost me $732



 I hope it tasted good!


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## Ridgetop (Sep 24, 2020)

I try to balance my expenses with what I get in return from the sheep.  Loved the dairy goats, but now they would be too much work for us without small children actually living her 24/7.  I know it seems like they are here constantly, but not enough to buy more dairy goats and milk every 12 hours.  To do the job we need - completely denude our 6 acres of every burnable weed or twig, they are worth it financially.  It would cost us a minimum of $5,000 annually to cut this property to our fire safety standards (not the fire departments' 200' rule).  We have almost been burned out twice and completely denuded earth is the only way to protect yourselves here in Fire Central.  

The money we would spend on clearing the property will buy a lot of hay for the sheep.  Granted the sheep take work, but now that we have our equipment set up and multiple enclosures, they are less work to care for.  Particularly since they are trained to come in at night to their fold.   They produce lambs easily and regularly which helps to offset their cost and puts meat in our freezer as well.  Having 3 LGDs to protect them works well and the sheep recognize their protectors - again training.  Lastly, we enjoy seeing our sheep on the fields.  During the short hiatus between our youngest selling off in preparation for college and us bringing back sheep, we really missed small stock on the property. 

However, we do have our small acreage fully fenced and have night enclosures, hay sheds, and and a small barn for lambing.

We are considering moving to another state and more acreage.  The main cost of that move will be fencing.  We will have to *perimeter fence *at least 5' high with stretched woven wire for the dogs and sheep, possibly adding another foot or so above that..  Most agricultural fencing is 3-4 strands of barbed wire which will not hold in our dogs or young lambs.  Inner enclosure fences can be 4' high.  The second main investment will have to be barns.  One will need room for hay, straw, and feed storage and lambing jugs.  Another will need to house equipment, tool shop, and other storage.  

Good fencing is always the priority in keeping livestock.  Forget the house renos, budget most of your money for fencing and outbuildings if you plan on keeping livestock.


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