# New to goats and milking - keep up production?



## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 30, 2010)

Hi all

my first post here -- was on byc for years and glad to see byh!  (forgive typos, brevity, and shorthand pls -- we are too far out for Internet and I only have access via cell phone)

got my 1st 2 goats yesterday. Yearling Nubian was bred accidentally and lost kid so she's been milked for month or two. She was giving little over a qt with single am milking. Also 6-day fowling bottle baby - Nubian/alpine/oberland. 

Kid doing well on uni-milk so far. She's been receiving goatimilk. Transition was rough for doe. Arrived late so thought it safer to overnight in trailer w food water and bedding. Turned her into very large fenced yard overgrown w clover, grasses and weeds. Have very old dog that normally barely gets around and she surprised us and managed to chase the doe. Put dog at front and finally managed to calm doe - she was shaking for over an hour. She's VERY tame though and has been following me all morning  doesn't want the fowling too near so I keep doeling in house so she won't hurt her. She    Finally nibbled some feed - Dumor 16% goat sweet feed

I've never milked before. Read about it a lot. No milking stand but the doe is used to one. Waited till she was calm and I took care of all other animals (hectic morning with 2 new goats and few new chicks along with all the other animals) so she didn't get milked till 10am. First few ounces were rough lol then I collared her and clipped her close on a hayring while dh held feed for her. Not sure how much ended up on the ground or running down goats legs (guessing I lost abt 4 oz cuz she kicked when I had a little in the bucket too) but I ended up w 20 oz. 

She normally gives 32 to 35 maybe -- I'm told -- single am milking. I was told to feed 14 or 16% feed andimilk twice a day to get up production

and yes I think I emptied her and had gotten a small second letdown. Nothing when I stripped  my technique surely needs work. I have to concentrate hard to move my fingers that way

am I doing ok for first time?  Do the factors I mentioned cause decrease in supply?  Am I on right track to increase?  I don't want her to dry up

thanks!!!


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## freemotion (Mar 30, 2010)

Don't worry too much yet, she is stressed.  Don't strip like you would a cow.  The technique is a bit different.  I find that my doe behaves better if I hold the teat up and don't put any downward pulling pressure at all.  Don't slide your fingers down the teat to strip, just milk out as completely as possible.

Give her some probiotics a couple times a day to help her adjust.  Give her the best hay you can get your hands on.  If she came from a place where she had no access to fresh, growing plants, then seriously limit her access, allowing her just a few minutes here and there throughout the day and gradually increase the time so she can get used to it.

My doe gave more milk when I finally found some alfalfa hay.

Not sure what you meant by "fowling???"

Oh, and


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 30, 2010)

Hi 

And thank you. Sorry but "fowling" was supposed to be "doeling". It's the autospell on the cell phone. I missed it -- no time to proof and correct since that post took about an hour to type on this thing lol

thanks for encouragement. I'll go for hay this afternoon. Feed stores were closed so I got other stuff at tractor supply. I don't think she grazed much there.  limiting might be a problem unless I tether her. I have tons of growth here. She is barely nibbling though. I kept trying to encourage her but she only grazed a few minutes when she finally did. I'll watch her though -- thanks. Don't want her sick!

She mostly just stands very close to me. At least I can keep an eye on her. She runs back and forth and cries when I leave the yard. 

Thanks again!


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## cmjust0 (Mar 30, 2010)

She's stressed from shipping, first of all, but more importantly -- if I'm reading correctly -- is that she's now in a lot all by herself because the 2nd goat is but a 6-day old bottle baby.

She wants you out there because goats NEED a herd...they're herd animals.  She feels very, very vulnerable all on her own and having a chasy-bitey dog as her first experience in the new place probably didn't help matters at all.

You need to get a 2nd goat with her ASAP.  Like, right now.  And it really needs to be something of roughly equal age and/or size so they can scrap out a pecking order without anyone getting batted around too unfairly.

Bottom line...don't be surprised if her appetite remains poor and her milk production continues to drop until you get her a companion.  Stressed goats are very unproductive goats, but more importantly, stressed goats are far more vulnerable to illness..  You may wind up with more problems than a poor appetite and small milk yield if you don't get the herd situation worked out pronto.

Same goes for the baby, btw..  If you can't be with the baby 24/7, then you should really consider looking for another bottle baby as well.  Leaving a bottle baby all by itself is to invite stress-related illness and problems.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 30, 2010)

Hmmmm .....

Not good -- sigh. I had wondered about that

The dog did not try to bite her btw and couldn't keep upwith her -- but I doubt that mattered to her. I was surprised and never would have let it happen if I had realized the dog COULD do that. She's 14 years old and had a stroke last year. Was paralyzed for some time and did not fully recover as far as running -- or so I thought. She sure gave it a try today

btw the doe met our pup -- 3 months old but nearly as large as the dog -- through the fence briefly. He was frightened of her size and barked at her and she lowered her head and stomped. They will not be officially meeting for a long time -- until and unless he is trained and trustworthy

I had asked about the goats being alone. I am getting an older female llama and a male weanling within a week or so. I had wanted to have them before I got goats but these were headed for the sale barn due to a family's tragedies and were the first I'd been able to afford as well as seeming to have some potential

I can have them together as long as I am there -- just the doe seems to get annoyed with the baby nosing around. I don't think the baby is trying to nurse. The doe lowers her head. If the baby persists -- and she does -- the doe bumps her lightly. After a few times she will bump a little harder. The baby does not cry or fall but was pushed back a step. I don't know if that's serious but I don't want the baby hurt

off to give 2nd bottle and walk with them both and work on the yard. I was outside with her while typing other posts

thankyou -- and I'm not sure what to do. I considered getting a little buck since most everyone seems to run closed herds BUT ... I really don't think I'm ready for that and I don't want her pg too soon

I wonder if I can soon leave them together or if the llamas will help? This IS a problem -- she wants to come in the house. Poor girl 

Thank you again


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## ksalvagno (Mar 30, 2010)

The goat and the llama should do ok together. DO NOT put the male llama in with the goats. Also the male llama really shouldn't be in with the female llama. He could get her pregnant.

It sounds like the doe really isn't doing much harm to the little one. I would monitor but you could probably leave them together at least during the day.

If you could get the llamas home soon that would be good. 

Of course now you will have the problem of the male llama being by himself. I would not have an intact male llama in with a goat and this little guy can't be gelded until a minimum of 18 months. You may need another llama buddy for him.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks. 

I had wondered if it's too rough on the baby. I've been with them now and it's much the same except she did knock baby down once. Baby is maybe slowly getting the idea. I don't know if doe is establishing a social order or doesn't like her. She will go out of her way a few steps to push her head at her but often doesn't actually touch her. Then again she looks at me and I think she may stop because I am looking at her. I'm still not sure if they will be ok ornot but I guess I'll spend a lot of time with them. At the moment she's doing it often but stopping short of touching her. 

I am supposed to get the llamas in a few days. Probably Saturday need to call. 

I have enough pasture and some cross fencing but I had been told he'd be ok till old enough to geld. Sigh again ... But I think more weanlings are available. 

Thanks again.


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## freemotion (Mar 30, 2010)

People who are anxious to sell you an animal are not the best sources of information, as you and I and many others have discovered the hard way!  You might consider skipping the llamas and getting more goats.  Just a thought.  Sounds like you will need a gazillion animals to keep everyone healthy and happy.

No good deed goes unpunished!


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## RockyToggRanch (Mar 30, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> People who are anxious to sell you an animal are not the best sources of information, as you and I and many others have discovered the hard way!  You might consider skipping the llamas and getting more goats.  Just a thought.  Sounds like you will need a gazillion animals to keep everyone healthy and happy.
> 
> No good deed goes unpunished!


I second that...at least for now. Get another doeling around her age. Around her size and if yours is hornless...the new one should be too.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 30, 2010)

Please keep posting if you have more questions. You can post in the alpaca & llama section for the llamas. There is probably a lot more to their care than you have been told. Weanling males are hard to get rid of and people may say anything so that you will buy one. 

The llamas will need to be shorn annually no matter what other people say. Their toenails need to be trimmed on a regular basis. They do need CDT shots annually and they need Ivomec shots at minimum once a month September through January to help prevent meningeal worm (which is deadly for them).


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I probably will have tons of questions so thanks for your patience. Too bad it's so difficult to participate online -- I wish now I'd done more research talking to other owners and less from reading books!

Spending all this time with the goats gives me a chance to post although I have far too much work to do to keep this up for many days. 

The llamas are paid for, else I would get another doe and baby. I'll look for a way to do it anyway  I think I need the llama anyway because of coyotes and other predators. 

I think I accidentally made it worse lol. (I say lol cuz things seem settled and they are getting along better). Baby kept climbing on an old well cover and I didn't want her to so I stacked some pallets with solid surfaces. Baby was thrilled, hopped up and lay down. Later doe decided she wants up so she keeps knocking baby off. I'm tired been a long day already so I sat in lounge chair and let baby lay on the end. Now doe keeps making little noises around my head and trying to lick my arms. She rests her head againt me -- kinda like when she lowers her head to tell the baby to go away but she seems to want to be petted. 

This is really more affection than I wanted from a goat. I have two dogs and two cats for pets. I expected the farm animals to BE farm animals. 

I've been reading some archives but I have tons to learn about goats!

Oh and my doe has horns -- that's why she was sold I think. 

Thanks all


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## cmjust0 (Mar 30, 2010)

Lil-patch-of-heaven said:
			
		

> This is really more affection than I wanted from a goat.


If I had a nickel....  

Seriously, I know what you mean..  Then again, I've also had to chase wildassgoats around to give shots and so forth, and it's WAAAAAAAAAAAY less fun than having one follow you around like a puppy.

All things considered...I think super friendly goats are easier.  

But just barely.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 30, 2010)

As far as protection from coyotes, if the llamas are actual guard llamas, then you are fine. If not, then they will probably run away faster than the goats. There is no way to tell if the weanling llama male will be a guard. They need to be adults and you witness them protecting their territory. A true guard llama is at least 3 years old and has been proven to be a guard. 

I speak from experience. I bought 2 weanling llama males years ago from someone who assured me they would be guards. Well, they were the first ones to run away. Now I have actual guard llamas but they are adult females who had already proven to be guards. Learned my lesson.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 31, 2010)

Glad to know it's not TOO strange that this girl has fallen in love or something LOL. I admit it made it easier to -- ok now I hope no one will tell me this is bad for her in any way because I really DO want to do right by them all -- but until I can do something else I had to use duct tape and attach a small stick to her horns because she kept getting her head stuck through the fence. I am aafraid for her to hurt her winpipe or something plus she IS exposed if there WERE any dogs or anything out there. I do think maybe she has learned that I rescue her so she might be doing it on purpose. But it was easy to put her away last night, easy to get her up on my makeshift temporary milking stand, etc. She comes when I call lol. Actually she pretty much comes when I don't call lol.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 31, 2010)

And regarding the llamas I was afraid that was true. I had read it somewhere. A seller told me any llama would but ... 

I know the little boy is still a baby. I tried to see how the female acted. The man I bought them from doesn't get to watch them a lot I think. I can't tell except that she seemed very confident and she is huge. 

The pasture runs longwise near the house. The fences are four to five foot with some chain link and some wire pasture fence  most of it has buried sections of hog panel to prevent digging under. Our outside dog is useless due to age. I'm training up a pup but only to alert us. I don't have an Lgd yet.  I do hear coyotes singing in what sounds like a congregated pack often. There are a few roaming dogs but the neighbor has mostly scared them away by shooting them with pellets. Only one used to come but I have not seen it again since I chased it with a stick. I lock down poultry at might but had hoped to give the lllamas and goats an open shelter. 

I guess I'll have to see. Thanks for confirming that for me. Makes the search harder if the female won't do -- and I can't wait on the little male


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## ksalvagno (Mar 31, 2010)

Unfortunately, a llama is no match for a pack of coyotes or dogs. If you have a real problem with them, you will probably want to lock up your animals at night. Really, even a single LGD is no match for a whole pack of coyotes.

Since you already paid for the llamas, you can see how it goes. If there is a rescue in your area, then maybe you can find one through them. I know SELR would be very honest with you about the llamas.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks again. 

I'll ask around some more. I know most people here with lgds have three to five. I did talk to dh about securing ALL the animals at night. This place came with an old barn and several pasture bldgs we can adapt. If nothing else pasture fence on an open wall should work. I've heard stories of panthers and jaguars which would require lockdowns anyway without a pack of lgds. 

Thanks!  At least the llama will keep the goat company and I wanted them anyway.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Mar 31, 2010)

Oh and the two goats are getting along much better in the yard. She only pushes the baby in the place I put her in at night and if I am with them and sitting down. The second case seems to be the doe wants attention and doesn't want the doeling coming up to me to get any. 

I'm learning -- slowly lol. Gotta see abt a healthissue in the baby tho ... Will post new thread for that. Thanks all!


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## RockyToggRanch (Mar 31, 2010)

I visited a goat dairy recently that has a guard Llama. That thing scares the hell out of me. The owner assures me that he's harmless as he's running the fenceline like a giant muppet, growling and snorting at me. Awesome thing to watch...but I wouldn't want to be the one who trims his nails

I've had goats for 2 yrs now. They are the most effectionate pets I own. And SMART! Best dogs I've ever owned


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## cmjust0 (Mar 31, 2010)

RockyToggRanch said:
			
		

> I've had goats for 2 yrs now. They are the most effectionate pets I own. And SMART! Best dogs I've ever owned


You only say that because you've never had a Sarplaninac LGD.


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## RockyToggRanch (Mar 31, 2010)

You're right! I have a crazy silky terrier and an awesome unknown breed barn dog who unfortunately is afraid of his own shadow. 

Put their brains together and they're still not as smart as my togg does.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 3, 2010)

I told dh I read goats are smart. This doe seems to be. Unfortunately that's not so good with her being essentially in the backyard and wanting to come in the house. She's persistent too!

Fortunately I am going tomorrow tp purchase a herdmate of hers that she grew up with. That doe has a buckling onher that is unfortuately about 5 weeks old where my doeling is less than 2.  She could use a buddy too. But with a fence between them when alone, or together when I can be with them, the yearling doe is somewhat accepting of her. I wonder if that will end when her buddy shows up ...

I am also bringing home the female llama. Boy is not weaned yet. The gentleman has 2 2-yo males for me to pick a replacement for the  original "guard". I wonder if their reaction if I take my dog along will tell me anything?  One is halter trained and has nice fiber at least and  might keep the female llama better company. Or the weanling male when he comes. 

And there's the buckling. I could use him to breed my 1st doe but he's related to the other two (son to one and half-brother to the doeling). I may wether him and let him be company for someone -- but I don't thinkhe was disbudded so I probably won't keep him. 

I know dh will ask me if he can service a doe then become goat steaks ...

Tomorrow should be a busy day but at least I can stop being a sitter for TWO goats.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes, you can take your dog and see what the llamas do. They should come right over to the fence and look kind of "mean."


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 3, 2010)

I now have four goats and a llama. 

The first doe (Dakota) was getting along well with the doeling (Amelia).  I was afraid when Dakota saw her buddy Sierra (another yearling doe -- they were raised together) that Amelia would not be "needed" anymore and Dakota would revert to butting her again. 

Instead it seems as though Sierra, though she clearly remembers Dakota, accepts Amelia as part of the herd in this place?  I'm not sure but both Sierra and her buckling (who is about a month older than Amelia) are both being very nice to her. 

Both Dakota and Amelia were on cloud nine. The yearlings and the buckling moved around as if all joined at the hip grazing together. Amelia now has THREE goats to run with and jump around. Dakota is wagging her tail and actually cavorting and eating everything in sight. 

I never knew it would make SUCH a difference. Though now Dakota is still trying to come inside and bring her buddies with her. And things are tense at the moment. I think they had an open shelter before. But I put them in for the night in a porch-type room that's about 8x8 or maybe a little larger and Sierra is shoving Dakota sometimes. Neither of them are lying down. I think Sierra is upset because of her buckling?  

I don't know if I will get much sleep but I am glad they were happy earlier. I wonder if I will need stalls. I hope not -- seems it would defeat the purpose. I was planning to build a pen for Amelia with them so she canbe safely in with them. 

I just hope Sierra can't hurt Dakota ... I keep checking on them. I do NOT feel better about leaving them outside.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 3, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Yes, you can take your dog and see what the llamas do. They should come right over to the fence and look kind of "mean."


ah.  Unfortunately I could not take him. I was in a hurry (bad idea) which somehow leads to everything taking LONGER than it normally does (especially backing the trailer put of our long curved driveway!). 

I do wish I could have seen the males with him. 

However the female I brought home is standing tall and stomping her feet at dogs. I hope that's a good sign ... I posted more about her under llama handling.


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