# Diet of a Nigerian Dwarf Goat?



## Sunny & the 5 egg layers (Jul 6, 2011)

What is a Nigerian Dwarf Goats Diet? And when you first get them as kids, does their diet change at all compared to adults? 
Thank you.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 6, 2011)

I will start off by saying that most members here will give you a different answer for how to feed your Nigerian Dwarfs.

This is what I give my Nigerians, Pygmies, and crosses thereof does:

Free choice year round for everyone
Hay
Water
Manna Pro Goat Mineral
White Salt Block
Fresh Produce trimmings & "waste" from my local grocery store

**Browse available late spring through late fall**

Does - twice per day when mid to late pregnancy and lactating
1 Cup Purina Noble Goat
1 Cup Lucerne Farms Alfa Supreme(shredded and molasses misted alfalfa hay)
1 Cup Alafalfa Pellets
1/2 Cup BOSS(Black Oil Sunflower Seed)
1/2 Cup Manna Pro Calf Manna
1/4 Cup Scratch Grain
***Does get 1/2 scoop of Goats Prefer Probiotic Power, once per week during this time, and 1 scoop when in heat/being bred***

Does - twice per day when between weaning & breeding
1 Cup Alfalfa Pellets
1/2 Cup Purina Noble Goat
1/2 Lucerne Farms Alfa Supreme
1/4 Cup Manna Pro Calf Manna

Bucks - once per day
1 Cup Dumor Pelleted Goat Feed
1 Cup Alfalfa Pellets
1/4 Scratch Grain

Kids - Free choice for age 3 weeks & up
50/50 mix - Manna Pro Calf Manna/Purina Noble Goat
**kids get 1/2 scoop of Goats Prefer Probiotic Power once per week top dress if dam raised(mixed into bottles if not being dam raised)


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## helmstead (Jul 6, 2011)

Elevan has a good thread on feeding HERE


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## Sunny & the 5 egg layers (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for all your input. I will be getting 2 Nigerian Dwarf wethers eventually and I am a total newbie to goats so I am trying to learn as much as possible so that when the time comes, I am prepared. So would I feed them this:


> Kids - Free choice for age 3 weeks & up
> 50/50 mix - Manna Pro Calf Manna/Purina Noble Goat
> **kids get 1/2 scoop of Goats Prefer Probiotic Power once per week top dress if dam raised(mixed into bottles if not being dam raised)


From the time I get them from the breeder until they are 1 year (or whenever they are considered full-grown) ? 

And then feed them this:



> Free choice year round for everyone
> Hay
> Water
> Manna Pro Goat Mineral
> ...


From 1 year and up all the time? 

Also, how would I go about introducing the new feed and additional things (the minerals, the salt block ect.)?I don't know how old they are when you get them from a breeder, but would I feed them hay... Or stick to the goat feed only until one year (or whenever they are considered full-grown) ? And I read about how you should feed them baking soda? 

Sorry if I am confusing you guys...  Can you tell I am new at this? Haha!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 6, 2011)

Sunny & the 5 egg layers said:
			
		

> Thanks for all your input. I will be getting 2 Nigerian Dwarf wethers eventually and I am a total newbie to goats so I am trying to learn as much as possible so that when the time comes, I am prepared. So would I feed them this:
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> > Kids - Free choice for age 3 weeks & up
> ...


No problem!  It really depends on the breeder, regarding at what age they will release a kid to it's new owner. Some won't allow for bottle feeding(kids are weaned at the breeder's), others will let you take the kid for bottle feeding ASAP.
And yes, if you follow our(my farm's) feeding practices. They would also have constant access to hay, water, mineral, salt block, and produce, just like the rest of the herd(your's would be only wethers, unless you catch the goatie bug  ) up until the wethers reach 1 yr old.


			
				Sunny & the 5 egg layers said:
			
		

> And then feed them this:
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Under "Free choice year round for everyone", this is for all ages & genders of goat.  Ask your breeder if you can buy(or have) a couple days' worth of the grain they have been feeding, if it differs from what you will be using. This is so you can "slowly" transition them to the new feed like you would when switching a dog or cat's food to a new brand.
As far as the hay, mineral, produce scraps, and salt block go, those you can start giving them from the time you get them home with you.  I will say, since you are new to goats and may not already know, that if you get a bottle baby, do not start giving them water to drink from a bottle, as they will not learn how to drink it properly. Start with a small bowl and dip your hand in with them watching, they will put their head in it to see what you have, get water on their nose, and realize it is hydration!  

Some say that they give Baking Soda free choice in a mineral feeder(multi-compartment feed dish), other will top dress(put on-top of the feed) with 1 Tbsp per day, still others only give it when they notice signs of bloat or scouring(diarhea).  If you are bottle feeding, and the kid begins to have loose poo, it can be added to their bottles to bring their system back to normal.
We only give it to our goats if they either appear to have the beginning signs of bloat or are scouring.


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## Sunny & the 5 egg layers (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Sunny & the 5 egg layers said:
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Ok, I think I understand it better now  . What kind of hay do you feed them? And where do you get the hay? Is it something TSC carries? 
Thanks again.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Sunny & the 5 egg layers said:
			
		

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It varies, sometimes it is grass/clover mix, other times they get Timothy... it depends on what the Blue Seal or Farm store has in stock... the only hay TSC carries is compressed bales of Molassses misted alfalfa or bags of pelletted hay.


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## Sunny & the 5 egg layers (Jul 7, 2011)

Ok, is there any hay to avoid at all? Or is it something that you can't go wrong with? 
Thanks again.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

For wethers, you want to stay away from the molasses misted/treated hay & pellets. As it will mess with their calcium to phosphurous intake ratio... which will lead to UC(Urinary Calculi).
Other than that, make sure that you don't feed silage(partially fermented) hay or soy hay as both ferment too quickly for their systems and can lead to severe bloat issues.

Basically, get what you can afford that is also of good quality.


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## savingdogs (Jul 7, 2011)

Sunny & the 5 egg layers said:
			
		

> Ok, is there any hay to avoid at all? Or is it something that you can't go wrong with?
> Thanks again.


moldy, stemy or old hay! Goats can be very picky.

We followed the feeding guidelines given to us from the breeder, which was free choice hay, mineral, baking soda, fresh water and about a 1/2 cup a day each of goat grain (we use Purina). When they were done growing, we cut out the grain altogether until they started up with pregnancy/lactation. We also feed alfalfa pellets and compressed alfalfa, more as a treat, and add BOSS to everyone's treats, about 1/2 cup per goat (mine are all female). You have to be careful giving grain to wethers, if you get any, make sure you read up on feeding them.


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## Sunny & the 5 egg layers (Jul 7, 2011)

Ok, thanks. 

Would I use medicated goat feed or not? What does it treat?

Sorry for all my questions! :/


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## savingdogs (Jul 7, 2011)

We only have one goat grain available in our county, the Purina. Unless we went with a more general livestock grain. You might see what is available first before you ask that question, I learned about all kinds of great products here on BYH, but they were not available locally. I go through too much grain to have it shipped, so I pretty much have to use the Purina or find a way to make my own.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Medicated goat feed, like Purina Noble Goat, is medicated with either Rumensin or
 Decoquinate (depending on plant).  It is a good thing to feed to growing kids(doelings, bucklings, or wethers) to help prevent them from getting coccidiosis.

You will also want a feed that contains Ammonium Chloride to help prevent UC in the wethers... which Noble Goat has.


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## Sunny & the 5 egg layers (Jul 7, 2011)

Purina Noble Goat Feed is the feed I am referring to. Could I feed this to a grown Wether's too, or just kids? It is available at my TSC and is cheaper then Dumor Goat Feed.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> For wethers, you want to stay away from the molasses misted/treated hay & pellets. As it will mess with their calcium to phosphurous intake ratio... which will lead to UC(Urinary Calculi).
> Other than that, make sure that you don't feed silage(partially fermented) hay or soy hay as both ferment too quickly for their systems and can lead to severe bloat issues.
> 
> Basically, get what you can afford that is also of good quality.


I've never read that grains with molasses added are higher in phosphorous than grains without.  Can you share some references?


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## Goatmasta (Jul 7, 2011)

FYI - Noble goat does not always contain AC, it varies by region.  I used to use it, and you have to check the tag EVERY time you buy it to make sure you are getting what you want.  Apparently when I was using it the store I bought it from would get deliveries from two different plants.  One included AC, the other didn't.  I talked to purina about this and they stated that it varied by region.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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It is the amount of potassium in molasses that throws off the calcium/phosphorus ratio... not the amount of phosphorous.  Same reason why one should be careful when offering bananas to goats. It is okay every now and then, on a treat basis, but not something you want to give them every day.

ETA: this quote from a page that shared with me by another member here(can't recall which one) in a previous thread. "Molasses is a rich source of potassium which, if fed in excess, could reduce the absorption of calcium, thus upsetting the calcium to phosphorus ratio." {This could be managed by adding a vitamin D supplement to their feeding ration, but why pay more just to bring the nutrients back to a proper level, when it can be avoided by simply limiting their access to molasses and/or bananas?} 

Also, molasses is of concern when related to wethers or bucks due to an increase in the risk of the male developing Urinary Calculi. {Which I suppose one could up the amount of a.c. in their diet, but again, why pay more?}


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

*Sunny & the 5 egg layers*- See here for the Purina page on their Noble Goat feed. I think this might make it easier for you to form a conclusion on if it is indeed what you want to feed or not.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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I find this interesting.  I have never heard of molasses being the culprit, but cereal grains do to the fact that they are very low in calcium.   So, I did a little googling to see what I could find on the molasses....

http://www.fancyfeedcompany.co.uk/library:18.htm

   Many goat owners also show concern in feeding diets that contain molasses to wethers or bucks in particular, due to fear that this will increase their chance of developing calculi. Molasses is a rich source of potassium which, if fed in excess, could reduce the absorption of calcium, thus upsetting the calcium to phosphorus ratio.  However, although this may be a concern if feeding pure molasses to your goats, when molasses is combined within a concentrated ration the minerals are balanced so the complete feed is only supplying the nutrients your goat needs.  In any case, the molasses is only added as a coating and will not make up a large proportion of the end ration so is unlikely to be the cause of calculi formation.  Goats can be particular in what they like to eat, which is why goat mixes tend to be available as dry or lightly molassed to improve palatability.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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The quote reads that molasses' potassium interferes with calcium absorption, thus upsetting cah ratios AND can ALSO be a concern because it increases the risk of UC.  Where is the "and/also" coming from?  It IS upside down cah ratios that cause UC.

I've never read about potassium rich molasses contributing to UC and I'd be interested in further reading.  I have read that the high iron content in molasses can interfere with copper levels, so I'm not defending molasses here.  But I think it's important for the OP not to read this as "sweet feed is an issue, molasses-free grain rations are not."  Upside down cah due to too much phosphorous rich feed (any type of grain) and not enough calcium rich feeds (legume hays such as alfalfa and peanut, beet pulp) cause UC.


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## helmstead (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> *Sunny & the 5 egg layers*- See here for the Purina page on their Noble Goat feed. I think this might make it easier for you to form a conclusion on if it is indeed what you want to feed or not.


I've mentioned before on this forum...you have to check your REGIONAL Purina mill for ammonium chloride content - it is NOT available in all regions.  And read every tag on every bag, as they're known for switching coccistats on you between batches.  All-in-all thought Noble Goat is a good feed, and if you can't get it with AC already in there, you can just topdress with bulk AC to compensate.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> *Sunny & the 5 egg layers*- See here for the Purina page on their Noble Goat feed. I think this might make it easier for you to form a conclusion on if it is indeed what you want to feed or not.


A total newb can read feed labels until they're blue in the face, but until they learn about ruminant nutrition looking at ingredient panels and guaranteed analyses is completely useless.  That's why it's useful for folks to ask about feed here- to get the reasoning behind it from folks with experience.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> The quote reads that molasses' potassium interferes with calcium absorption, thus upsetting cah ratios AND can ALSO be a concern because it increases the risk of UC.  Where is the "and/also" coming from?  It IS upside down cah ratios that cause UC.
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> I've never read about potassium rich molasses contributing to UC and I'd be interested in further reading.  I have read that the high iron content in molasses can interfere with copper levels, so I'm not defending molasses here.  But I think it's important for the OP not to read this as "sweet feed is an issue, molasses-free grain rations are not."  Upside down cah due to too much phosphorous rich feed (any type of grain) and not enough calcium rich feeds (legume hays such as alfalfa and peanut, beet pulp) cause UC.


I am not sure what you mean by "and/also"... as I did not use this term...?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> ETA: this quote from a page that shared with me by another member here(can't recall which one) in a previous thread. "Molasses is a rich source of potassium which, if fed in excess, could reduce the absorption of calcium, thus upsetting the calcium to phosphorus ratio." {This could be managed by adding a vitamin D supplement to their feeding ration, but why pay more just to bring the nutrients back to a proper level, when it can be avoided by simply limiting their access to molasses and/or bananas?}
> 
> *Also*, molasses is of concern when related to wethers or bucks due to an increase in the risk of the male developing Urinary Calculi. {Which I suppose one could up the amount of a.c. in their diet, but again, why pay more?}


To me this infers "in addition to."  Maybe I'm just not understanding the wording.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Goatmasta: Thank you for posting the link for the page I quoted from.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

I always use the word "also" as a continuation of my thoughts... sorry if this is confusing to anyone.  But now you know.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Goatmasta: Thank you for posting the link for the page I quoted from.


I am confused then, because the page doesn't back up your ideals.  It says "although this may be a concern *if feeding pure molasses* to your goats".  It does not state that molasses in normal amounts is bad.  What is says is that people have a unfounded fear of molasses, that the culprit for UC is cereal grains, not enough forage and lack of hydration.  It is cereal grains because that they lack the calcium, which in turn cause the ratio to be upside down.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 7, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

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Thanks for putting the quote into context Goatmasta.  It does change the take home message when read in context.  Maybe there are some other references about the potassium levels in molasses being an issue, Livin?  I think this is really important to look into further, not because we feed sweet feed but because giving molasses in water as a quick energy source immediately after kidding is a common practice which we follow- a time when calcium interference is a critical issue.  The last thing you want following kidding is something inhibiting calcium absorption...


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

Goatmasta: the site also mentions that the higher potassium CAN throw off the cah balance.  As potassium blocks the ability to absorb calcium. We all have our own beliefs & reasons as to why we feed a certain way, and give our own advice. I simply gave mine, which was requested by Sunny & the 5 egg layers, with the scientific reason as to why I would not give anything with molasses to male goats(but especially wethers), except on a treat basis.  We allow limited acess to Lucerne Farms Alfa Supreme(molasses misted & shredded alfalfa hay) for our bucks... same goes for banana, only that is especially limited.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 7, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Goatmasta: the site also mentions that the higher potassium CAN throw off the cah balance.  As potassium blocks the ability to absorb calcium. We all have our own beliefs & reasons as to why we feed a certain way, and give our own advice. I simply gave mine, which was requested by Sunny & the 5 egg layers, with the scientific reason as to why I would not give anything with molasses to male goats(but especially wethers), except on a treat basis.  We allow limited acess to Lucerne Farms Alfa Supreme(molasses misted & shredded alfalfa hay) for our bucks... same goes for banana, only that is especially limited.


Sorry- I think Goatmasta's response was to my request for references.  I've never heard that about molasses and so was interested in reading more.  I wasn't so much questioning your belief as I was curious about facts behind it.  I think it's important to put into perspective whether the amount of banana required for calcium interference would have your goat scouring like a fire hose or if even the quantity that might be given as a treat can affect ratios.  I don't know the answer to that... The same goes for the alfalfa hay that is misted.  If the amount of molasses used is enough to affect cah ratios then it would be advisable not to feed it at all.  Particularly since the main purpose of alfalfa is to offset the phosphorous in the rest of the diet.  How much potassium is an issue and how much potassium is actually in molasses?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 7, 2011)

No worries N.Smithurmond(Nick, Nicki, Nikki?) I don't mind when people have questions that they are seeking clarification on... especially when it comes to something I have said. I would much rather have the opportunity to clarify my intent or meaning than to have someone assume I was meaning something completely opposite than my meaning/intent
... it is never fun for anyone involved, when meanings or intent are misconstrued/misinterpreted.  Written word is so difficult sometimes, as one can not hear the intended inflections.

I think this is an area that really needs a proper scientific study done, to see what actual difference potassium makes in a *goats* diet. Until it is verified one way or the other, I would rather air on the side of caution and limit it or remove it all together.  As I stated previously, why pay to supplement and bring the diet back into balance, if you can just eliminate the potential for the need to correct in the first place... right?

ETA: or am I just too frugal?!?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I think this is an area that really needs a proper scientific study done, to see what actual difference potassium makes in a *goats* diet. Until it is verified one way or the other, I would rather air on the side of caution and limit it or remove it all together.  As I stated previously, why pay to supplement and bring the diet back into balance, if you can just eliminate the potential for the need to correct in the first place... right?


I know you've only had a couple kiddings so you're probably still working our the details of your routine, but have you in the couple kiddings you've had or do you plan in the future to give molasses post-kidding?

Arguing that you're eliminating the cost of extra calcium supplementation by not feeding molasses is a red herring because assumes that the amount of potassium in a serving of molasses affects cah ratios.  I'd be the first to admit that just because it's a commonly accepted practice doesn't mean it's necessarily scientifically correct, but without more than a vague googled reference or two (quoted out of context) and no hard data (or ample anecdotal evidence from long-term producers) I don't think I'd feel comfortable advising others patently that molasses contributes to UC.  It's not always the case that a=b=c.  UC is a very serious concern for goat owners and misinformation (or misguided information) risks befuddling the basic crux of the issue for what's already an enormous and sometimes overwhelming amount of information.

There's nothing wrong with sharing your personal beliefs, suspicions, inklings, or gut feelings... for experienced owners/producers those suspicions are often obtained though valuable first hand experience that sometimes even vets don't have.  But I think when advising a fellow goat owner who's attempting to sort through the mountains of information available it's wise to frame the advice in the proper context, as a belief as-of-yet unverified by research.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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I was not taking about calcium supplementation, but rather what would be needed to correct the imbalance that _could_(as the page that both Goatmasta & I quoted from states that it can) arise from giving molasses: Vitamin D and Ammonium Chloride.

I am not sure why you asked about the giving of molasses to my does, since I had referenced the limiting _or_ removal of molasses when talking about wethers and bucks, as they in particular are more prone to UC.
But, to answer your question We only gave molasses to a doe once, but that doe ended up dying(Cali) due to a very young frame, stress of having the kid in her for roughly 8 hrs & the stress of the kid retreival process.
If we had been able to find CMPK in any form prior to her going into labor, we would not have given her the molasses water.  We now have one of the CMPK gel tubes that is meant for dosing a cow... but it will be cut open when Momma has kidded and the rest will get stored appropriately... at least until we purchase a bottle of injectable CMPK from the vet(now that we have FINALLY found a vet willing to work with farm animals).


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

Personally...I've very confused about this potassium causing a lack of absorption of the calcium theory.
Here is why:  There isn't a lot of research on goats but there is a TON of research on humans.  And MY calcium supplement is fortified with potassium, phosphorus and magnesium.  Why would they include the potassium if it interferes with the calcium's absorption rate???  That just doesn't make any sense to me.
Now, I know that humans and goats to each other do not equate BUT mineral absorption varies little from species to species AND we are talking about the potential for potassium to inhibit calcium.
_I just do NOT think that this is correct.  This is my personal opinion._



AND - CMPK is CALCIUM, MAGNESIUM, PHOSPHORUS, POTASSIUM (K)...why would they put those in combination with each other (for livestock) IF potassium inhibits calcium????  It makes no sense I tell you!  I do NOT believe that potassium inhibits calcium.


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2011)

I have to say I agree with Elevan, barring some sort of GROSS overdose, which a little molasses or the occasional banana won't give you.  I think Livin has misunderstood the 'jist' of the link, which is what Goatmasta was trying to point out - a MISCONCEPTION about molasses-coated feeds.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 8, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Personally...I've very confused about this potassium causing a lack of absorption of the calcium theory.
> Here is why:  There isn't a lot of research on goats but there is a TON of research on humans.  And MY calcium supplement is fortified with potassium, phosphorus and magnesium.  Why would they include the potassium if it interferes with the calcium's absorption rate???  That just doesn't make any sense to me.
> Now, I know that humans and goats to each other do not equate BUT mineral absorption varies little from species to species AND we are talking about the potential for potassium to inhibit calcium.
> _I just do NOT think that this is correct.  This is my personal opinion._


This is why I had stated previously: I think this is an area that really needs a proper scientific study done, to see what actual difference potassium makes in a *goats* diet.
When something like this is an unknown, we(I and my family) would prefer to air on the side of caution and limit or remove the item in question.... it's the whole better safe than sorry thing, for us.

In regards to humans and the vitamin supplements: It is a common practice in the industry to throw in as much as they can, so people will look at the label and go,"Hey, this has a ton of good stuff in it, it has to be good/beneficial to me!"  When in reality, several of the ingredients work against each other or cancel each other out.  They make more money out of us this way, as we all know.  In humans, an overload of calcium leads to kidney stone issues. One way to prevent kidney stones in people that eat a calcium & vitamin D rich diet is to eat a banana a day... as it is known they are rich in potassium, which does(scientifically proven) slow the absorbtion rate of calcium.


Not being said to any one person, but anyone reading this thread(that has gone a ways off it's original topic, by addressing things I wrote instead of questions made by the OP):
All of what I have posted, is what *I*(and my farm) practice... just like any other advice from other members here.  The off topic comments are also not as of yet proven for GOATS... in defense of either practice.  This was a good discussion though. I am starting a new thread for anyone to post about their supplementation practices.  Something akin to Elevan's feeding practices thread.


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## elevan (Jul 8, 2011)

Livinwright - I responded on the new thread that you created so as not to further hijack this thread.

My response can be found here:   Let's look at our different supplementation practices


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

Moved to supplementation thread.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I have to say I agree with Elevan, barring some sort of GROSS overdose, which a little molasses or the occasional banana won't give you.  I think Livin has misunderstood the 'jist' of the link, which is what Goatmasta was trying to point out - a MISCONCEPTION about molasses-coated feeds.


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