# Swollen Feet



## Tiss (Mar 9, 2013)

My MiniMancha got up this morning with swollen feet. She is due March 30 and is as big as a house! The previous owner said she's had triplets before and I wouldn't be surprised if she is carrying them now. 

Of course, I go google swollen feet in goats and get all this stuff about toxemia which has first-time-goat-mama me freaking out. She got up for her grain this morning and again for alfalfa this afternoon. She even walked across the pasture to be pet, but I can see that it is paining her. She'd rather be lying down. 

I know I was swollen when I was expecting my twins. Is this normal?

Thanks!


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## Roll farms (Mar 9, 2013)

I've only had one doe w/ swollen feet, and she had toxemia...ended up having to treat her.

I would get a test ran to see if she's getting toxemia, and keep propylene glycol on hand.

Good luck!


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 9, 2013)

x2


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## Tiss (Mar 18, 2013)

Well, it's been another week. Trixie has 12 days to go. She doesn't want to get up, but will get up and shuffle around a bit. 

She's still been eating which leads me to think it is not Toxemia. I did some more research and found periparturient edema. 

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/periparturientedema.html

I'm pretty sure that's what she has going on. Her eyelids are still pink. I gave her some herbal wormer, but am hesitant to give a chemical wormer during pregnacy. Yesterday, she started eschewing her grain, but she is still eating plenty of good hay and veggies I am bringing to her. 

I feel so bad for her. She just seems miserable.


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## Renegade (Mar 18, 2013)

Tiss said:
			
		

> http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/periparturientedema.html
> 
> I'm pretty sure that's what she has going on. Her eyelids are still pink. I gave her some herbal wormer, but am hesitant to give a chemical wormer during pregnacy. Yesterday, she started eschewing her grain, but she is still eating plenty of good hay and veggies I am bringing to her.
> 
> I feel so bad for her. She just seems miserable.


I'll keep my comments about that sight to myself.

If I were you I would treat that doe for pregnancy toxemia ASAP. Just because she's eating doesn't mean it's not preg. tox. The average doe with toxemia has it either because she is underweight, overweight, and/or carrying multiple kids. You say this doe has a history of triplets.* If this doe has toxemia and remains untreated she and the kids could easily die. *You can't hurt her by treating her. I would rather be safe then sorry.
I'm not a fan of propylene glycol. I use the recipe below.

Revive:
500ml 50% Dextrose
50ml Amino Acid Concentrate
200ml Calcium Gluconate

we also add the following but it's not a must
2500mg Thiamine

Mix in clean Mason jar and store in dark place. We give 100ml orally 3X daily until symptoms subside or does kid. We know others that mix 50/50 with water at time of use and give 200ml 3X daily.
Good luck with her.

Donna


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 18, 2013)

If I were you, I'd listen to Renegade, she knows her goats.

DonnaBelle


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Mar 18, 2013)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Tiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


x2


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 18, 2013)

I would be treating her for pregnancy toxemia.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 18, 2013)




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## Tiss (Mar 19, 2013)

Okay, I'll start on that. This is so stressful!

Where can I get all that stuff?


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## Renegade (Mar 19, 2013)

Tiss said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll start on that. This is so stressful!
> 
> Where can I get all that stuff?


Most any feed store. My Tractor Supply carries them.

Donna


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## Tiss (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks, I'll stop there now. My poor girl.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 19, 2013)

you can also just get goat drench or power punch for livestock. It is pricey. follow directions on bottle and give twice a day for 5 days. 

Or you can make this drench or a combination of the drench Rengade suggested and this drench. 
1 part corn oil, 1 part Corn(light Karo) syrup, 1 part black strap mollasses and 1 part 50% dextrose  mix well in glass quart jar and can warm some to thin.   
use a 30 or 50 cc feedign drenching syringe and give 3 ounces twice a day. 
Can add some Calcium gluconate (15 cc's per drench)
B-complex injectable 3 cc's per drench
vitamin E gel cap or injectable AD&E to drench as well. 

Drench twice a day for 5 days. or alternate the two recipes.  

Calcium is very important.


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## Tiss (Mar 19, 2013)

Thanks y'all. I drenched her with the Dextrose/Amino Acid/Calcium solution. The vet recommended the B-complex subcutaneousy 2x/day. Would adding it to the drench be more effective?


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## doxiemoxie (Mar 19, 2013)

Give the B vits subQ.  Most ruminants normally produce their own B vits in their digestive tract so she could be having a slight absorption issue if she's low.  You want her to get as much as possible. Everyone reading this needs to know that it is NOT HARMFUL treating for preg tox if an animal is not having that problem, but NOT TREATING when needed is life threatening.  I hope she does well and keep us posted!


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 19, 2013)

Absolutely, follow the directions given to you to the letter.


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## Tiss (Mar 20, 2013)

I feel like such a failure of a goat mama. I should have listened to my gut and you guys and not the advise of my breeder/friend even though he's been in the business for years.  

I have been dosing Trixie for 24 hours with the dextrose/calcium/amino acid drench. She's had 3 injections of B-complex and 2 doses of probios and she shows no sign of wanting to eat. Per the vet's instructions, I started her this evening on Proylene glycol as well. She hated that!

She is 10 days from her due date. She is still getting up and moving to a different bed in her stall several times a day and is still taking water. I am totally new to this, but I can only feel a little ligament on one side and none on the other. Her back end has been bulging out for a couple of days almost like there is a kid right there. No discharge or anything though. 

I have been talking with my vet. She hasn't been out, but is thinking we can make it another day or two before we need to think about inducing. How early is the earliest they can go and have viable kids? 

Trixie is a 6 year old 1st gen minimancha and was bred to a minimancha.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 20, 2013)

I don't know, but I am rooting for her. Good luck.


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## alsea1 (Mar 20, 2013)

How is Trixie this eve?


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## Queen Mum (Mar 20, 2013)

GET HER STARTED ON SOME PEN G.  1cc per 40 pounds of weight.   for 10 days.  It won't hurt the babies...

Pregnant goats are also subject to a form of hoof infection that can set in if they have toxemia.  My older doe gets it and it cause them a LOT of pain. 

When the feet swell they get soft and things get embedded which can result in infections to the feet.  

Get her up on the milk stand with some grain and soak each hoof (one at a time, obviously) in hot water with betadine, and salt mixed in.  *Each hoof* for about 10 minutes in water as hot as YOU can stand to put your elbow in.  SHE won't like it at first, but will eventually find that it is soothing and will tolerate it.  THEN clean her hooves and check for cracks and sores.  Trim out any icky stuff even if you have to dig it out.  

After you are done spray with some hoof rot spray (prevention) and dab with honey.  The honey is a natural antibiotic.  You can also paint the hoof with iodine to toughen them up a bit.


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## Tiss (Mar 21, 2013)

I gave her another dose of PG and B-Complex this morning- man she hates that. She's not taking any other food. I'm going to go up in a couple hours and give her another drench and some warm molasses water. 

@Queen Mum- Do they make it 10 days on only the drenches and PG? I have my concerns about that. As for her feet, I know they need a little work. 

I did them about 8 weeks ago. I usually do feet every 6 weeks. I tried putting her on the stand about a week and a half ago and she was just too big to balance well while I worked on them. I got 1 foot done, started on another and she nearly fell off the stand. I decided then they could wait until she delivered. At this point, I don't think I could get her on the stand anyway. She's only getting up to relieve herself, shuffle to another corner of her stall and sit back down.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 21, 2013)

Inducing might have to be the solution if you don't want to lose her if she is not responding to treatment.  I am not sure on the viability of the kids.


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## marlowmanor (Mar 21, 2013)

Tiss said:
			
		

> I gave her another dose of PG and B-Complex this morning- man she hates that. She's not taking any other food. I'm going to go up in a couple hours and give her another drench and some warm molasses water.
> 
> @Queen Mum- Do they make it 10 days on only the drenches and PG? I have my concerns about that. As for her feet, I know they need a little work.
> 
> I did them about 8 weeks ago. I usually do feet every 6 weeks. I tried putting her on the stand about a week and a half ago and she was just too big to balance well while I worked on them. I got 1 foot done, started on another and she nearly fell off the stand. I decided then they could wait until she delivered. At this point, I don't think I could get her on the stand anyway. She's only getting up to relieve herself, shuffle to another corner of her stall and sit back down.


Just a thought, but couldn't you try to work on her hooves while she is laying down? It'd be worth a shot and if she is comfortable laying down and would stay still for you it could work.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 21, 2013)

Just tie her whereever she will stand.  

The key first step  is to soak those swollen feet in hot water with betadine and salt.  (It helps with the pain and the swelling cleans the hooves and does a little antibiotic action at the same time, getting at the infection.) 

Then do a good visual inspection and get them cleaned up and remove any foreign objects.   

The next step is to treat any sores and use a topical antibiotic  (honey).  

And the last step is to work on prevention.  (iodine and hoof rot solution)

Do it religiously three times a day for the first 3 or four days and then twice a day till the end of 10 days.

She probably could use some banamine as well.   


My doe, Mama, gets this when she is heavy with kids and if I start the MINUTE she limps, it clears up very quickly.


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## Tiss (Mar 21, 2013)

The vet and I have decided to induce her with Dex tomorrow. I just can't see her being strong enough to go through labor if I wait any longer and don't want to lose her _and _the kids. Hopefully this way she'll make it and there's at least a chance for the kids. She and the sire are both half Nigerian Dwarf, so I'm holding onto a little hope that she would go before day 150 anyway. I know that's grasping at straws, but I need all the hope I can get right now. 

I brought a bucket of hot salty water out and was able to wash and trim two of her feet. She was laying on her other side so I'll have to try to get the othe feet when she changes position. She seemed to like the warmth on her feet.


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## ragdollcatlady (Mar 21, 2013)

I just thought that I would mention that the honey needs to be raw and unfiltered to have the antibiotic effect. It will be a cloudy honey as opposed to the "regular" honey in the grocery store. That stuff has been heat treated and usually has corn syrup/ Karo syrup added to stretch it. Honey from any beekeeper or farmer has a lot more natural benefits....

I used raw honey on a severely infected spider bite on my leg and in 2 days it was nearly completely healed. A chicken that had a band cut through her leg all the way to the bone, had a near complete recovery in 3 days...the flesh was filled in and healthy, no sign of infection....

Back to the topic, I hope your girl is OK. My NDs delivered on days 146, 147 and 148....


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## Tiss (Mar 21, 2013)

I am a beekeeper so I used some of my fall harvest


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## ragdollcatlady (Mar 21, 2013)

It is great that you keep bees! We have a natural bunch of bees keeping our yard company and I am going to put some waterers out for them because they are drowning in my goats water buckets. One of these days we will get some hives. 

I wasn't sure if everyone reading this would understand the difference between honey from the store with little to no healing properties, and the raw honey hat does miraculous things sometimes.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 21, 2013)

ragdollcatlady said:
			
		

> It is great that you keep bees! We have a natural bunch of bees keeping our yard company and I am going to put some waterers out for them because they are drowning in my goats water buckets. One of these days we will get some hives.
> 
> I wasn't sure if everyone reading this would understand the difference between honey from the store with little to no healing properties, and the raw honey hat does miraculous things sometimes.


Thanks for mentioning that fact Ragdollcatlady.  I am so used to using raw honey that I didn't even think about it.  Honey is a great tool.  My vet told me about it and my does' feet.  it made a HUGE difference.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 21, 2013)

kids woudl have a better chance if the vet gave your doe a small does of dexamthazone and then a bigger dose 24 hours later, the dex helps stregthen the lungs of the kids,  Lutalyse is a better way to induce once dex has been given.  
keep drenching her, 
and add some water to it.   Hydration is important.
you might want to ask the vet to give her a bag of IV fluid, if she hasn't been drinking well.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 21, 2013)

EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA good luck!


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## GLENMAR (Mar 22, 2013)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> EXTRA, EXTRA, EXTRA good luck!


X2

You should have heating pads or warm towels on hand too. 
What ever you need to do to get the kids going.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 22, 2013)

I would make sure I have a bottle and some back up colostrum.  colostrum replacer is better than colostrum  supplement. 

Also, kids may need to be tube fed.  Get your vet to show you how, and get a tube feeding kit. They are cheap.  

There are really good instructions on-line
here is a link: 
http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1998/eb1998.pdf


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## Queen Mum (Mar 22, 2013)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I would make sure I have a bottle and some back up colostrum.  colostrum replacer is better than colostrum  supplement.
> 
> Also, kids may need to be tube fed.  Get your vet to show you how, and get a tube feeding kit. They are cheap.
> 
> ...


That link took me to some other report...


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## GLENMAR (Mar 22, 2013)




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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 22, 2013)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oops, fixed it.


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## josellers (Mar 23, 2013)

Sorry if I'm not doing this right but trying to figure it all out....
My question is, how do we approach worming???
we have 2 goats. both female. sisters (1/2 Togg/ 1/2 Alpine)
They are growing like weeds!
I have seen various worming methods and gotten so many opinions...
what is best???
Also, is there a way to stop them from jumping on me???
my son doesnt mind it but I'm afraid if they catch us the wrong way they 
could really hurt someone (ie hoof in eye, etc). I know one day they boxed my
ear really good.....It was painful (maybe a worse blow to my pride?!?! I got my 
ears boxed by Sassy!!! name appropriately (at least that day).

Any other advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated!!!

Already went through $300+ vet bill d/t one of the goats was nibbling on plastic shrink 
wrapped fence material before I realized what was happening.....she almost died but is fine now!

It seems alot of folks (even vets) dont know alot about goats....
we desperately searched for help until an angel sent one vet our way by sheer accident! and
saved Sassy's life!

Thank God! my son loves his goats so much!!!

I have to say, i don't know much about goats but every time I get mad at them...
I take one look at those faces and can't stay angry no matter how I try!
jo
thanks!


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 23, 2013)

How is the doe doing?  Did you give her the dexamethazone?   

In a nut shell, some wormers work better than others and some wormers don't treat all the same worms so you have to know what you are dealign with, try doing a couple fecals or try a couple different wormers.  

Ivermectin does not work reall well in some areas. 

Have you looked at the does eyes and gums for anemia?   Anemia would make them feel like crap and go off feed, Also a sign that your wormer may not be working well and you may need a stronger wormer.  

Ivermectin 1 % injectable for cattle is often being used at 1 cc per around 20 to 30 lbs given orally, sometimes every 10 days for 3 times in a row.  
Ivermectin paste for horses can also be used,  At 3 x the dosage for a horse, so you would give a 100lbs goat a dosage for 300 lbs. 

cydectin 
VAlbazen
synanthic and 
Prohibit
Are other common wormers.  

Notice I didn't mention SAfegaurd or Panacur(same thing)  In my opinion it is a waste of money and doesn't work well.  

Coccidiosis is another type of parastits, works different than worms and needs to be treated for 5 days in a row with a the right medication.  



Oh, and you are doing fine.  Keep reading and asking questions.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 25, 2013)

Any updates??


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## Tiss (Mar 25, 2013)

I am sorry for leaving you hanging. I'll start with the outcome before the details... 3 stillborn doelings and a recovering mama. Here is a picture. It's not gross, but some people may not want to look at the beautiful dead kids. 

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/...6B269C7-9501-00000C3E77522536_zps4d1fb87b.jpg

The brown one was 5lb, the other 2 were 4.5lb. All had teeth so they weren't overly premature. 

The details....

Gave Dex about 3:00 on Thurs. By 2:00 Sat, Trixie began pushing. She pushed the first bubble out then stopped pushing! A friend's husband drove an hour and a half round trip to the vet to get Oxytocin. That got labor going again quickly, but perhaps not quickly enough. First doeling presented me with a back knee and a hip. I had to do some serious manipulation to get her out. 

Second doeling came breech. Third doeling came frontward but with only one leg out. I had to push that leg back in to find the other and pull her out. We rubbed and swung and cleared airways, but there was just no life in them. All three were delivered by 6:00. I suppose a bright spot is I have now delivered almost every possible presentation. 

Then the afterbirth didn't come. I had to meet the vet Sunday morning to get antibiotic and more Oxytocin. Gave .25ml a couple hours apart. She was still pushing some out when I went to bed last night and this morning seems to have cleared it all out. 

My sweet doe has started eating a little again and even got up and wanted out of her stall to visit the other goats for a few minutes yesterday. She's also been vocal again. It's nice to hear her talking. 

Her milk didn't seem to be letting down so last night I massaged and massaged and bumped and rubbed with Molly's Herbals udder salve and did that again this morning. I was finally able to get a few tablespoons of thick colostrum out. I'm about to go out and see if I can get any more. 

Thank you everyone for your advice, your concern, and your prayers.


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## SkyWarrior (Mar 25, 2013)

I'm so sorry to hear this.  They were beautiful kids.    

I'm glad your doe is okay.  And yeah, manipulating them is amazingly difficult.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 25, 2013)

SkyWarrior said:
			
		

> I'm so sorry to hear this.  They were beautiful kids.
> 
> I'm glad your doe is okay.  And yeah, manipulating them is amazingly difficult.


x2   Glad your doe will be OK.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 25, 2013)

Those are some good sized babies.  I am so sorry you lost them.   I wonder if they succumbed to the effects of the toxemia? 

You might want to ask your vet some other questions as well for future reference...  Is there is a prevention for toxemia?  Are some does more susceptible?   How much does age play a factor?   Criteria for early induction?  These would all be questions and considerations in evaluation of this pregnancy and others to come, I would think.

Again, I am so sorry for your loss..  Glad your doe is doing OK...

Congratulations on a good delivery, though....


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## Tiss (Mar 25, 2013)

At this point, I can't second guess myself. Trixie was in good condition when she was bred. The vet thinks the toxemia was just the stress of the multiples. She was curious what the outcome of her last triplet birth was but I don't know...that was for the owner prior to the family from whom I bought her. 

I'm totally new to this so even though I suspected triplets, I had nothing to base that on. In the future I will recognize the signs better. I have also learned to listen to my gut about my goats and not just trust friends even if they have much more experience. 

The vet and I made the decision to wait a couple days after she went off her feed to induce labor to try to give the kids a fighting chance. I'd read that kids born much more than a week before their due date don't generally survive, so we waited until 10 days prior to induce. I kept Trixie going by shoving a turkey baster in her mouth 6 times a day to give her Propylene Glycol and the Dextose drench on page one. I also gave her B-complex shots twice a day and probios daily. 

Seeing how developed the kids were, now I think we should have induced sooner. The vet thinks the toxins probably killed them. Again, now that I've seen the kids, I think that Trixie being a mini made a difference to her gestation period. But I had no way of knowing that before. 

Now my focus is on getting her healthy again. She's started eating and has wanted a little social time with the other does each day. I've been able to milk a little colostrum out of her a few times today. I was truly worried yesterday that she wouldn't have any milk after this whole ordeal! She was my best milker last year. 

I have 3 more goats due to freshen in the next month. They are all fiesty and going strong. I feel like we'll have a much different outcome from all of them and if we do run across something strange, chances are I've seen it and know how to handle it now.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 25, 2013)

Good for you Tiss!  You are an awesome goat owner.  Sounds like you did a great job!   Hindsight is really helpful in evaluating what to do "next time", but hopefully there won't be a next time...   Keep on milking that girl.  She might come in with a load of milk ON her due date.  You never know.

And her system has to clear all the toxins as well... I am guessing....


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## ragdollcatlady (Mar 26, 2013)

Wow! So sorry about the rough delivery.  Congrats on your doe surviving and recovering.


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## GLENMAR (Mar 26, 2013)

I would not have known what to do either. 
That is the great thing about this forum. We can 
learn from folks with more experience.


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## Tiss (Mar 26, 2013)

She was actually chewing cud this morning! So good to see her getting turned around.  She wanted out for a good romp with the other girls. I was afraid they'd knock her right off her feet, but she held her own through all the head butting. Then I put her back in her stall with a heat lamp and a blanky- I've never seen it so cold here this time of year. I have to leave her separate or the others will eat all the alfalfa I have out for her and I want her to get plenty of rest to recover. 

I continue to get a small amount of colostrum out with each milking. I know she doesn't have the energy to be making much but I want to keep her flowing.


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## Tiss (Mar 26, 2013)

Double post. Please delete.


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