# CL in pregnant doe?



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 20, 2013)

I have a pregnant doe with a swollen spot by her lymph node. I haven't had it tested yet but I am just assuming CL so I can either be prepared for the results or extremely happy with the results. She is about 2 months in, Due on July 14. Is there anything I can do? Will it affect the babies? I know there's no treatment but I'm not sure how to be better prepared. She's separated from the rest of our herd until we get the results.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 20, 2013)

Anyone?


----------



## alsea1 (Apr 20, 2013)

If the results came back positive if it were me I would choose to cull her. 
I know we get attached to them, but the task of keeping her from infecting the others is monumental. Especially when considering the antics that are common with goats and their social nature.
I know some folks would choose to make adj. and deal with it.
My understanding is that once a goat has it that's it. No cure.
I hope your results come back just a silly infection and nothing more.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 20, 2013)

She is pregnant. We will not be culling her.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Apr 20, 2013)

alsea1 said:
			
		

> If the results came back positive if it were me I would choose to cull her.
> I know we get attached to them, but the task of keeping her from infecting the others is monumental. Especially when considering the antics that are common with goats and their social nature.
> I know some folks would choose to make adj. and deal with it.
> My understanding is that once a goat has it that's it. No cure.
> I hope your results come back just a silly infection and nothing more.


I'd be doing the same here.


----------



## Canadiannee (Apr 20, 2013)

Rose N Lynne... I know the advice being given is very difficult to accept... NO ONE wants to have to cull an animal, especially an animal they care about so deeply. Do know these posters are giving you their best advice from experience... if it is CL, it is not something you want to infect your herd... There are many years of posts on this forum talking about experiences with CL and perhaps searching thru those topics might help you to understand why most believe culling is the only answer... sadly, as of yet there is no cure.

Now I have heard of a few breeders who have set up strict quarantine on does with CL and have delivered the babes under strict guidelines that do not allow any exposure to the doe's birthing fluids (inluding not allowing the kids to ingest colostrum and milk from the doe)... but from my understanding, it doesn't always guarantee the kids will come out CL free... 

I have been fortunate not to have come across a case of CL in my herd, however,  if I did, I have to agree with the other posters... I'd have to cull the infected animal because 1) I could not put the rest of my herd in jeporady, and 2) morally and ethically, I could not sell any of their off-spring... Respectful goat breeders are trying to eradicate CL and CAE from their herds, and for many, it is costing them large dollars financially, the loss of good breeding animals and the years of offspring that these does/bucks would produce. Nothing can be more devastating even to a seasoned breeder to make this decision, but they do it for a good cause...

My heart goes out to you, and I hope your tests come back with something as silly as an infected splinter or something like that... please keep us updated, 'cause we care


----------



## Southern by choice (Apr 20, 2013)

There is a great deal to this subject, and it gets very heated. A goat with CL may have 1 lump that appears and does burst open and never have another. A goat that does have a lump should be quarantined until the abscess bursts or is lanced and cleaned and the wound MUST be healed up completely before going back to the herd. When lancing the abscess it should be done over a tarp that can be disposed of and quarantine area should be a place where no other goats will ever be. A goat that has lump after lump should be culled. 
If this is a dairy goat and you show, the goat should never be shown again IMO. CL can take a while to show up. Average time is 4-6 months before showing a symptom.

It is more about management.  Would I want it in my flock...no , of course not. 
Of course this is just a snippet to consider, the subject is much bigger than a few sentences can sum up.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 20, 2013)

Rose N Lynne Farm said:
			
		

> Hi y'all. I have a pregnant doe with a swollen spot by her lymph node. I haven't had it tested yet but I am just assuming CL so I can either be prepared for the results or extremely happy with the results. She is about 2 months in, Due on July 14. Is there anything I can do? Will it affect the babies? I know there's no treatment but I'm not sure how to be better prepared. She's separated from the rest of our herd until we get the results.
> 
> Please help. I'm absolutely distraught over this.


Pull the babies at birth and raise them on the bottle.  If you manage to get them as they're popping out, you have a greatly reduced chance of CL spreading to them.  I've done the same with very good results.

After she has kidded out, you can choose to cull her or keep her, and deal with the symptoms.


----------



## Southern by choice (Apr 20, 2013)

It is not transmittable by milk, like CAE is.


----------



## Canadiannee (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for the correction Southern... we don't hear about it much in our parts, and those I know who have experience CL have said it is passed thru milk... glad to learn otherwise!


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm not even going to read this thread because I know I'll have to sit here again to the hundredth time and type up all about CL.

I WISH people would do the research before they tell "facts".

CL is ONLY, ONLY, transmitted thru DIRECT oral contact with the puss. Only other way it can be passed is thru an open cut; in other words it must enter the body. The CL puss is help in an abscess until it bursts. So lets think about this a second. A goat with CL can't pass it on until the puss has left the abscess be it thru it bursting or it being lanced by you. Can't be passed thru milk unless somehow some of the puss someway got to where a kid was nursing or drinking milk. Not passed thru milk people, ONLY thru direct oral contact.

DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU START STATING FACTS. PLEASE!

It drives me crazy to see so much misinformation about everything.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 20, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I'm not even going to read this thread because I know I'll have to sit here again to the hundredth time and type up all about CL.
> 
> I WISH people would do the research before they tell "facts".
> 
> ...


Not sure which comment you're referring to so I'll expand on my suggestion to catch the kids at birth and bottle feed.  I wasn't suggesting that CL was transmitted via nursing.  My reasons for pulling kids from CL positive does is to reduce the chances of physical contact that will end up transmitting CL to the kids.  Apologies if I wasn't clear.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Apr 20, 2013)

sprocket said:
			
		

> Straw Hat Kikos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Southern by choice (Apr 20, 2013)

*Straw *your post was rude.... I know you have written over and over on the subject but sometimes when a subject isn't on the site for awhile then that info gets lost.

It does not help the original poster either. 

One Fine- not called for either.

We all have good and bad days.... Straw works almost 15hrs a day 6 days a week...he is grouchy and tired. Just forgive him and move on...


*For the poster-*  Once the lump starts to lose the hair on it , it will soon burst. It is much better to do a controlled lance then a burst only because you can keep the contents confined easier. Clean it easier too. I gave your situation some thought as to how you might confine in an area that would be safe for the future. The only thing I could come up with is  maybe 4 cattle panels to form a pen. Tarp down before lancing.  Gloves, bleach bottle, iodine.  I have dealt with many abscesses in the canine world...it is kinda gross but you will get through it. When the skin is real stretched and it is about to burst the animal doesn't feel the lancing...so no worries there. Having another person help you would be good so you can squeeze the caseous out the other person can hold something to catch it in and wipe it off.

I also know this is probably very stressful for you right now. Take a breathe, it will be ok.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Apr 20, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> *Straw *your post was rude.... I know you have written over and over on the subject but sometimes when a subject isn't on the site for awhile then that info gets lost.
> 
> It does not help the original poster either.
> 
> ...


Southern, I like your style.

Your a good person


----------



## alsea1 (Apr 20, 2013)

With all that has been said, for me peace of mind would be to not have a CL positive goat to deal with.

If you missed a lump and it burst before you found it. Oh my.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 20, 2013)

She is one of my favorite does and I will do everything I can for her until she kids, and once she kids she has a good home to go to as a pet only. The people understand what CL is and they will lance the abscess if it appears again, and when it is ready. I refuse to cull any of my animals unless they are in pain and/or terminal with a illness that causes a slow and painful death. I do not just cull because a goat has a few contagious lumps, I would at least try to find her a good home with caring people, and people who understand what is wrong with the goat.

I will lance the abscess once it is ready and inject it with formalin, and then once she kids the kids will be pulled and we will send her to her new home after a few days. 

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I just have the best interest in mind for her. I don't see why she can't live as long of a happy life as she can. *This shouldn't be her death sentence.*


----------



## Southern by choice (Apr 20, 2013)

Ok..gonna step out a bit here. Please do not use the formalin. It is used more often in the lump to dry it out and it is *extremely painful*, it is also a poison.  Lance then use alcohol and iodine. 

I agree with you... this is not a death sentence nor does it mean she will ever have another lump.

 So sorry you are having to deal with this.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 20, 2013)

Hey not trying to slam anyone. Just wish people would do the research on more stuff.

Ok for your CL issue. CL is NOT a big deal. It really isn't a big deal. It's easy to care for and does no harm really.

Real quick, no injecting it with anything esp. formalin. 

Let me go read all your posts so I can help you out with this CL issue.


----------



## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 20, 2013)

Rose N Lynne Farm said:
			
		

> She is one of my favorite does and I will do everything I can for her until she kids, and once she kids she has a good home to go to as a pet only. The people understand what CL is and they will lance the abscess if it appears again, and when it is ready. I refuse to cull any of my animals unless they are in pain and/or terminal with a illness that causes a slow and painful death. I do not just cull because a goat has a few contagious lumps, I would at least try to find her a good home with caring people, and people who understand what is wrong with the goat.
> 
> I will lance the abscess once it is ready and inject it with formalin, and then once she kids the kids will be pulled and we will send her to her new home after a few days.
> 
> I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I just have the best interest in mind for her. I don't see why she can't live as long of a happy life as she can. *This shouldn't be her death sentence.*


*
Just from what I've heard/ read and how I understand it, the word "cull" doesn't necessarily mean to kill. It means to remove from your flock/ herd/ ownership etc. So in a sense by finding a new home for her you are culling her from your herd.*


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 20, 2013)

Okay I will research more on formalin, and will be prepared with alchohol and iodine.

Hmm interesting..I was sure cull meant kill. Maybe I was mistaken, sorry if I was! 

I'm sorry if that was mean I didn't mean it to be. I'm really tired and stressed.  (Yes I know that's no excuse :/)


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 20, 2013)

> I have a pregnant doe with a swollen spot by her lymph node. I haven't had it tested yet but I am just assuming CL so I can either be prepared for the results or extremely happy with the results. She is about 2 months in, Due on July 14. Is there anything I can do? Will it affect the babies? I know there's no treatment but I'm not sure how to be better prepared. She's separated from the rest of our herd until we get the results.


If it's on a lymph node then it more than likely is CL. Sucks but it's the truth.

Ok, nothing you can do for her. The abscess will do it's own thing, just get bigger, lose the hair, and then burst. Can't do much about it but you CAN keep it from going to anyone else. There is no treatment but there is a vaccine but I am not a fan of it and won't be using it ever. No CL vaccine for me. Also she does not need to be away from the herd right now. Go ahead and put her back with them.



> She is one of my favorite does and I will do everything I can for her until she kids, and once she kids she has a good home to go to as a pet only. The people understand what CL is and they will lance the abscess if it appears again, and when it is ready. I refuse to cull any of my animals unless they are in pain and/or terminal with a illness that causes a slow and painful death. I do not just cull because a goat has a few contagious lumps, I would at least try to find her a good home with caring people, and people who understand what is wrong with the goat.
> 
> I will lance the abscess once it is ready and inject it with formalin, and then once she kids the kids will be pulled and we will send her to her new home after a few days.
> 
> I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but I just have the best interest in mind for her. I don't see why she can't live as long of a happy life as she can. This shouldn't be her death sentence.


Ok no formalin. It's poison and will hurt and sting. It will cause it to shrivel up and fall off basically. The only person I know that promotes that and talks about doing that is SWG and trust me, she does it the way I do it. She does the lancing and cleaning in a way close to the way I'll let you know about in a minute.

You are right in that this shouldn't be a death sentence.


Ok so CL is just some bacteria in the lymph nodes. That's all it is. No biggie. Once the bacteria builds up to a certain level the body deposits it to a lymph node. That's when it gets a lump. The CL puss is in a hard shell basically so it's not going anywhere and isn't inside the goat. If you feel the lump at the later stages you can see that it is set off the body. CL is transmitted only by direct oral contact or by entering the body thru a cut or some other way. Really it's only going to infect another goat if they ingest it. A CL+ goat can NEVER EVER give CL to other if they don't have a lump at that time and even if they do have a lump, if it's not open then they can't give it away.

It ill be a small lump but will get bigger and at around 14 days most times it will lose the hair. That's when it will burst and she must be taken from the others. You shave around it and clean the area around the lump. Be sure the goat is away from everyone else and in an area that nobody (goats) goes. Be over a tarp so you don't ruin the ground. (CL can live in soil for 3 years) Lance from the very top to the very bottom. Unlike what you hear this will not hurt. Because the lump has stretched the nerves so tight the goat will not be hurt be cutting the lump. You cut top to bottom and squeeze all that nasty puss out. CL puss is yellow to white most times and stinks alot of times. Squeeze it out and save it for testing. Once you do that use your fingers to get every bit of it out. Make sure it is all out and use water to help you out. Once done spray about 10cc of alcohol into it. May or may not hurt. Leave it sit for at least five minutes. Clean it again and put about 10cc of iodine in it. Be sure no puss is on the goat or anywhere else. The lump should be empty. Do not put her back until it has healed all that way which takes 10-14 days sometimes longer. Put iodine in and around it everyday.

The kid(s) will be fine and it's better she has it now then when they are on her. CL is strange in that you never know when or if they will get another lump. Some have one and never another. Some get it often like every 5 months. Your goat will be fine and doesn't need to die. CL doesn't hurt the goat so what's the big deal. Won't kill them and causes no pain.

Now I do need to say a few things. CL and Internal CL are different things. CL is no big deal. Internal CL is really bad and all animals with it need to die ASAP. Also imo a goat that gets alot of CL lumps should also be culled. More than 1 in a year and the goat goes is what I would do. 

I'm tired and don't know if I missed anything. Ask anything you wish and I'll help you out. I'll give you good Cl info.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 20, 2013)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> Rose N Lynne Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's exactly how I'd meant it - removal from the herd - when I wrote it, and I'm sorry if it was upsetting.  I can understand that this is a very stressful time - I remember the despair I felt when I found our first abscess in our herd. 

I share similar feelings with Straw - I don't think that CL is as big an issue as many make it out to be.  That being said, I'd prefer not to have it, given the choice.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 20, 2013)

Of course. I think all of us would rather not have it than have it but it's no big deal. Really.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 20, 2013)

Thank you for all the information. I am able to breathe now..er until I get the results heh heh. 

I am going to draw blood on all my does and send it into biotracking. I will also send in some of the puss from the abscess for a culture. So it will be when the abscess bursts.

When the abscess starts loosing hair and is tight I will drain it.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 21, 2013)

I took a nap so my mind is more clear and I can think more about things. The veterinary center where she is going is a very good place where she will get good care. She will be boarded there until the results come back. Then I have the choice of boarding her for a certain amount of money a month, and all her needs will be taken care of, or putting her down.

I am considering boarding her there until she has her babies. If she does have CL it is not advanced enough to affect the babies in utero right now. And she's at a large animal veterinary center so she would have a little paddock to herself, and not be in a metal cage. I think for the last three months it would be a good quality of life. Also there are people there 24/7 so the babies would be caught and pulled off of her as soon as they're born. If she suddenly declines and is doing very bad, I will choose to have her put down. As it would be the best choice for her. After she has her babies I will see how she's doing and go from there. Its also nice that the place where she will stay is right across from my school so I can hopefully go see her once in a while.

So all in all I would board her for the next three months until she has the kids, and then I'd pull them immediately and bottle raise them. Then I will see what too do after that. The reason I am willing to do this is because the kids could be perfectly fine, no CL, but if we kill her & them now. They would never have a life, and I would always question if they would've had CL.

What are the pros & cons of this decision? Do you think this will be okay?


----------



## BlondeSquirrel04 (Apr 21, 2013)

I think it is a little extreme to quarantine a goat in such a manner when you are only looking at CL. It would be in her best interest to stay where she is comfortable and not be isolated for such a long time. That stress is much more detrimental than a CL abscess.

The goat seems to have no clue that there's a lump on its body and cares even less if it ruptures. It's not a debilitating, paralyzing disease that CAE can be. This is why it's treated as nothing more than a cold in other countries. But in America, every little lump/bump/cut/sore/cough/sneeze is scrutinized and blasted with an arsenal of Western medicine.

Take advice only from those who have dealt with it first hand, not just the random blogger spewing out misinformation.


----------



## Southern by choice (Apr 21, 2013)

*Each person should make the decision they are comfortable with.*

I am not understanding the boarding for 3 months though. The entire ordeal will be over in under 30 days.. if ready to be lanced now than probably 2 weeks. 

I do wonder about the stress of a goat being alone. Fine hospital or not, it is not the same and a goat alone for 3 months. Sounds like you are going to euthanize her anyway so why not now? Why put the goat through the stress of 3 months of being alone, not on pasture or any forage in a paddock, for the possibility of a few kids... 
Sorry I think that is selfish. 

I think people have screamed "EEEK CL"  for so long yet few people research it or know anything about it. Therefore the instant response is always the same. My goat has a lumo- CRISIS- no research and it is panic time. 

If one of my goats somehow ended up contracting CL I may not make the same decision as you. CL is much more serious in sheep because you cannot see it under the wool, it bursts and infects everyone. In goats it is easily managed. Meat Goats are rarely ever tested for this.


----------



## BrownSheep (Apr 21, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> *Each person should make the decision they are comfortable with.*
> 
> I am not understanding the boarding for 3 months though. The entire ordeal will be over in under 30 days.. if ready to be lanced now than probably 2 weeks.
> 
> ...


And sheep are also far more likely to carry it internally where it affects the internal organs and does cause death.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 22, 2013)

Boarding her? What's the point? She may likely have one lump in her life.  Maybe one or two a year. No need to kill, cull, or board her. If you are that worried about it then let her have the kids then eat her get so she doesn't go to waste. 

You said its not advanced enough to affect the kids yet. Not sure what you mean. Only way they could get CL is if they ingest the puss. If she has a CL lump then it will all be over in a few weeks. I'm not sure I'm getting all this.

Edited because the stupid Swype on my phone was being an idiot! lol


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 22, 2013)

BrownSheep said:
			
		

> Southern by choice said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, Internal CL is very rare in goats and while still rare in sheep they are much more likely to get it.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 22, 2013)

I didn't read all the comments,  

To the poster:

After the abscess is cleaned up and healed the kids should not be at risk. Since you have a lot of time until she kids, that is really good.  

There is a vaccine for CL, and I have read some people suggetion its use on CL positive animals and if used every 2 to 3 weeks 3 or 4 times in a row it has been reported by some that it will cause the abscess to fade away with out lancing it and cleaning it out. I have no experience with this, but I have had actual goat farmers tell me that they have done this several times with success.  

New CL for goat vaccine is available through Jefferslivestock.

You could clean up the abscess,  let her kid out,  and then vaccinate her and the kids for CL.  
I would of course consider getting a CL test before goign through the trouble of vaccinating. 

Many goats will just develop one abscess to never get another one.  It is important to NOT let any of the infection spread on your property to keep it under control.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 22, 2013)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> There is a vaccine for CL, and I have read some people suggetion its use on CL positive animals and if used every 2 to 3 weeks 3 or 4 times in a row it has been reported by some that it will cause the abscess to fade away with out lancing it and cleaning it out. I have no experience with this, but I have had actual goat farmers tell me that they have done this several times with success.


My experience with the CaseBac/Caseous DT vaccines is that they do not provide 100% immunity, though I believe they will lessen the severity of the outbreak.  I have not tried any of the other vaccines due to limited availability in Canada.  (I have, however, heard nothing but good things about Glanvac, though it's apparently been pulled from the North American market and is only available in Australia.)

How long have you had this doe?  Have you tested the other goats in your herd?  Do you know if any of the others are carrying it as well?


----------



## sprocket (Apr 22, 2013)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> You could clean up the abscess,  let her kid out,  and then vaccinate her and the kids for CL.
> I would of course consider getting a CL test before goign through the trouble of vaccinating.


Also, you can't vaccinate the doe after the fact - vaccinations are for prevention, not treatment.  The CL abscess itself, will have hopefully stimulated the immune system enough to prevent further outbreaks.

You can vaccinate the kids, though you should wait several months until their immune systems are developed enough to respond to the vaccine.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 22, 2013)

My recommendations (based on my own experience with CL) would be as follows:

- Do you know if the rest of your herd is actually CL negative?  If they test as positive, then the whole boarding point might be moot.

- Most of my does who have had CL in the past only have one, maybe two abscesses.  Most get over it and are fine and lead happy, healthy lives.

- A very select few are repeat abscessers.  They should be culled (and by cull, I again don't necessarily mean 'kill').

- If the rest of your herd is indeed CL negative and you have decided you don't want to reintroduce the CL+ does into the herd then:
  * Isolate the CL+ doe.
  * Deal with the abscess as previously stated.
  * Pull the babies at birth and bottle feed
  * Make the hard decision as to what you're going to do with the CL+ doe.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 22, 2013)

sprocket said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


not saying the doe will be cured of the disease, saying the repeated use of the CL vaccine for Goats has been reported to reduce the CL Abscess with out have to lance it.  

Your doe will remain CL Positive, but some farms are reporting a good result by vaccinating positive does with the CL VAccine and thus helping to reduce the occurance of CL Abscesses in positive animals. This is off label, of course.   

No vaccine is 100% affective. 
In the united States there is a goat vaccine that has very goat results and very good reports that is available commercially, some states still require it to be subscribed by your vet, other states are not requiring a vet RX.  You can look At Jefferlivestock to see the list of states that are allowing the sale of it. 


People use to use the CAsBac Sheep vaccine, but that was reported to have more reactions and not quite as good results. We used the sheep vaccine for a couple years, with no problems, but we are know switching our farm to the Goat vaccine. We have been happy with it so far. 

really, just was sharing options with you, since you clearly don't want to cull her.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 22, 2013)

sprocket said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many farms are using the New CL vaccine on positive animals,  including some of the people that were originally using the new Goat vaccine before it was even marketed to the public.  I have talked to them personally, it is not being labeled for this use however.  I am not a vet, just passing on some information that I have heard from other Goat farmers about the use of the new goat vaccine available in the United states. 

Lancing the abscess and not allowing it to get in your soil is still your first priority and ofcourse confirming if you are even dealing with CL.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 22, 2013)

sprocket said:
			
		

> My recommendations (based on my own experience with CL) would be as follows:
> 
> - Do you know if the rest of your herd is actually CL negative?  If they test as positive, then the whole boarding point might be moot.
> 
> ...


I agree with all you said but why bother bottle feeding if there is no abscess? No risk of paying it on so why do that? Now if she had kids on her and an abscess that makes sense.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 22, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> sprocket said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For us it's a precautionary thing, just in case there's an abscess we haven't found (ie. under the belly around the udder) or in the case there's any residual seepage from the abscess (which if it's been cleaned properly and it's healed up, there shouldn't be).  We're also doing a CAE prevention program which entails us putting the kids on the bottle regardless, so it's not any additional steps to our normal routine.

If you're able to do a routine inspection for abscesses on the entire goat on a regular basis to ensure there are no other abscesses, and you don't have any CAE worries, then sure, let the kids nurse.  We have 60+ does and doing regular checks takes a significant amount of work.  I was just erring to the safe side.

For us - where it's more of a disease management issue - this might not be as big of a deal.  For someone with a smaller, clean herd, I would tend to go towards the disease elimination route.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm glad you joined this forum. From the posts I've read by you and the little time I've had to check out what you say you seem to bring alot to the table. Glad you're here.



> For us it's a precautionary thing, just in case there's an abscess we haven't found (ie. under the belly around the udder) or in the case there's any residual seepage from the abscess (which if it's been cleaned properly and it's healed up, there shouldn't be).  We're also doing a CAE prevention program which entails us putting the kids on the bottle regardless, so it's not any additional steps to our normal routine.


CL is most commonly on the shoulders and is rarely in the udder and belly area though it can present itself there too. I can see having so many goats that could be rather difficult (though I'd find bottle feeding 120+ kids even harder) but as you said, for a smaller scale there should be no reason to miss a CL lump on a goat. I do not see the point in bottle feeding them ever unless there is a lump at the time kids are on the dam. This is also coming from someone who is very anti-bottle feeding unless NEEDED. 



> If you're able to do a routine inspection for abscesses on the entire goat on a regular basis to ensure there are no other abscesses, and you don't have any CAE worries, then sure, let the kids nurse.  We have 60+ does and doing regular checks takes a significant amount of work.  I was just erring to the safe side.


I have one doe with CL and evry once in a while I just look over her to see if there is a lump. You may not spot one at first but by the time that lump is a week you should see it easily even without having to put your hands on the goat. 



> For us - where it's more of a disease management issue - this might not be as big of a deal.  For someone with a smaller, clean herd, I would tend to go towards the disease elimination route.


I agree there too. If you can why not cull the goat? Or even for large operations? idk I guess it depends on how you view it. I personally see CL is a non issue. It doesn't hurt the goat and doesn't mess with us. Once in forever you may need to do a little extra work but hey, now I get to keep this goat. Win win imo. If you see CL as an issue then get rid of it. That simple. I just don't see it as a big deal.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 22, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I'm glad you joined this forum. From the posts I've read by you and the little time I've had to check out what you say you seem to bring alot to the table. Glad you're here.


Thank you, I appreciate that.  In my short time here I've already learned and gained a lot.  This is a very valuable resource. 



			
				Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> CL is most commonly on the shoulders and is rarely in the udder and belly area though it can present itself there too. I can see having so many goats that could be rather difficult (though I'd find bottle feeding 120+ kids even harder) but as you said, for a smaller scale there should be no reason to miss a CL lump on a goat. I do not see the point in bottle feeding them ever unless there is a lump at the time kids are on the dam. This is also coming from someone who is very anti-bottle feeding unless NEEDED.


I have only seen about 2-3 abscesses either on the udder itself, or under the belly around the udder/between the hind leg.  Udder abscesses are 100% non-negotiable for us and the doe gets shipped out ASAP.

As we're 100% dairy goats, we have to bottle feed regardless - I make more money selling the milk than feeding it.  That said, I do occasionally leave male kids on their moms since they're going to be sent for processing by the time they hit 50-60lbs anyways.  Typically, this is young enough that CL won't have presented itself yet.



			
				Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I agree there too. If you can why not cull the goat? Or even for large operations? idk I guess it depends on how you view it. I personally see CL is a non issue. It doesn't hurt the goat and doesn't mess with us. Once in forever you may need to do a little extra work but hey, now I get to keep this goat. Win win imo. If you see CL as an issue then get rid of it. That simple. I just don't see it as a big deal.


At some point, I would like to be able to sell breeding stock and guarantee them as CL and CAE free, which is why we tend to the side of caution with dealing with things.  While I agree that CL isn't as big a deal as it's often made out to be, I'd like to prevent as many people in the future from having to deal with it as possible.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Apr 24, 2013)

Did you get test results?

I read your first post, where was the lymph node?


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 24, 2013)

Not yet, they said it will take 3 - 5 days.


Here's a photo.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 24, 2013)

Rose N Lynne Farm said:
			
		

> Not yet, they said it will take 3 - 5 days.
> 
> 
> Here's a photo.
> https://sites.google.com/site/rosen...11488/home/photo (8).JPG?height=300&width=400


Based on the photo, I would say that is very likely a CL abscess.

Was this doe born on your farm?  If not, did you obtain other goats from the same source?  Are you having them tested as well?

If you have not done so already, definitely isolate her until the test results come back.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 24, 2013)

Yes that is what I think.. We traded our buck for her. We knew the guy was not honest and that we couldn't trust him, but she was so skinny and sick we had to take her to see if we could rehabilitate her. I kept her separated for 30 days and by that time she had gained weight and was treated for pneumonia, coccidiosis, and anemia. She was healthy so we let her go back with our herd. It's been about 2 months since she was introduced to our herd. 

Our other goats are all being tested for CL, and Johne's in a few days. We just had them all tested for CAE this year, so I'm only testing for CL and Johne's. She is at the vet's place waiting for the abscess to ripen and then it will be lanced, and treated and the puss will be sent in and tested for CL.


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 25, 2013)

I called today and the results will be in tomorrow..I'm so nervous.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 27, 2013)

Rose N Lynne Farm said:
			
		

> I called today and the results will be in tomorrow..I'm so nervous.


How did the test results turn out, Rose N Lynne?


----------



## Rose N Lynne Farm (Apr 29, 2013)

They came back positive :/


----------



## alsea1 (Apr 29, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear. that. I was hoping it would not be.


----------



## babsbag (Apr 29, 2013)

Rose N Lynne Farm said:
			
		

> They came back positive :/




I hate decisions like this.


----------



## Marianne (Apr 29, 2013)

The decision is NOT can you treat the goat...you indeed can do that.  You MUST quarantine the goat and get your formalin...the formalin proces is not that difficult and does work.  However, the decision is can you keep the remainder of your goats healthy?  You will always have to watch for an absess to appear and be certain it does not release bacteria to contaminate your pasture, barn, pens, etc.  Monitoring and treating ONE goat may not be a problem, but treatment for multiple goats gets trickier and is a forever deal.  At this stage, I vote for completing the pregnancy, a careful delivery of bottle baby(ies), and having those kids tested.   I would also consider the new CL vaccine.  However, the valuable 80% protection afforded by the vaccination has a downside...your goats will always test positive for CL.


----------



## babsbag (Apr 29, 2013)

Marianne said:
			
		

> The decision is NOT can you treat the goat...you indeed can do that.  You MUST quarantine the goat and get your formalin...the formalin proces is not that difficult and does work.  However, the decision is can you keep the remainder of your goats healthy?  You will always have to watch for an absess to appear and be certain it does not release bacteria to contaminate your pasture, barn, pens, etc.  Monitoring and treating ONE goat may not be a problem, but treatment for multiple goats gets trickier and is a forever deal.  At this stage, I vote for completing the pregnancy, a careful delivery of bottle baby(ies), and having those kids tested.   I would also consider the new CL vaccine.  However, the valuable 80% protection afforded by the vaccination has a downside...your goats will always test positive for CL.


I would rethink the Formalin injection. This is from the Merck Vet. Manual

_The practice of injecting abscesses with formalin should be strongly discouraged because the FDA has zero tolerance for extra-label use of a potent carcinogen in a food-producing animal._

I would also be afraid of it getting in the milk if you intend to milk her. And last but not least, I would consider the possibility that it is very painful for the poor goat. If it were a cure that would be one thing, but it simply a way to make the abcess go away faster.

IMO. Formalin is not worth it.


----------



## sprocket (Apr 29, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> I would rethink the Formalin injection. This is from the Merck Vet. Manual
> 
> _The practice of injecting abscesses with formalin should be strongly discouraged because the FDA has zero tolerance for extra-label use of a potent carcinogen in a food-producing animal._
> 
> ...


Agreed.  I would not go with formalin - lancing and cleaning with iodine is equally as effective, with much fewer downsides.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 29, 2013)

Do NOT do the Formalin injection. Also can someone PLEASE tell me why people keep saying to bottle feed? THERE IS ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO BOTTLE FEED, unless there is an open abscess at time of kids being on dam, which there will not be.


----------



## BlondeSquirrel04 (Apr 30, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> Do NOT do the Formalin injection. Also can someone PLEASE tell me why people keep saying to bottle feed? THERE IS ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO BOTTLE FEED, unless there is an open abscess at time of kids being on dam, which there will not be.


Because everyone lumps (no pun intended!) CL and CAE into the same category out of ignorance!


----------



## sprocket (Apr 30, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> Do NOT do the Formalin injection. Also can someone PLEASE tell me why people keep saying to bottle feed? THERE IS ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO BOTTLE FEED, unless there is an open abscess at time of kids being on dam, which there will not be.


These would be my reasons:

1) Do you know the CAE status of the goat?  If no, or yes and it's positive, then bottle feed.
2) Is the rest of the herd CL negative?  If yes, then cull the CL+ doe and bottle feed.
3) Do you sell goat's milk?  If yes, then put the babies on replacer and bottle feed.

I know we've touched on this briefly in other parts of the thread, but why are you so adamantly opposed to bottle feeding?


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 30, 2013)

I'm not against bottle feeding but I can't stand how people who don't know just lump CAE and CL together, as Blonde Squirrel said. I know you know and are smart on this subject but this "you must automatically bottle feed with CL"

Everyone is saying to bottle feed. She has no reason to bottle feed.


----------



## nightskygazer (Apr 29, 2014)

So just a couple quick newbie questions here. All due respect to you Rose N lynne for what you are going through. Does a CL abscess always have that life span of the number of days/weeks till it bursts? Or is it possible for a goat to have an abscess long term that just never bursts? Last part to the question is there ever any other reason a goat may get an abscess?


----------



## BlondeSquirrel04 (Apr 30, 2014)

nightskygazer said:


> So just a couple quick newbie questions here. All due respect to you Rose N lynne for what you are going through. Does a CL abscess always have that life span of the number of days/weeks till it bursts? Or is it possible for a goat to have an abscess long term that just never bursts? Last part to the question is there ever any other reason a goat may get an abscess?



Sort of. Most abscesses grow for a few weeks, then the hair on it falls off, then it ruptures. Usually the time frame is around a month, but every goat is different.

Goats may get abscesses from injections, injuries, insect bites, etc. There are common places for a CL abscess to appear (google image it). If it ruptures and the pus is toothpaste thick, yellowy-green, and odorless, chances are that's what it is.


----------

