# KIDDING SUPPLY LIST & Kidding NOTES



## Sally Sunshine (May 9, 2017)

*ps.. after this info (same post) I posted an updated notes thoughts and things I have learned and things I would add and birth pics. 

KIDDING SUPPLY LIST & KIDDING NOTES 
What did I forget? *
Paper towels
Newborn kid coat
Hand sanitizer
Wireless intercom/CAM for keeping track of does
Unwaxed Dental floss
Scalpel and sterile scissors
Vet wrap
Heating blanket / pad / quiet blow dryer
Flashlight
Breeding Calendar
Pad/Pencils marker
Molasses in warm water for dam after kidding
Towels or puppy pee pads for drying off kids
7% Tincture of Iodine
Garbage bags
Stethoscope
Flexible tubing
kid puller
Bottles/nipples/teat cleaner
Surgical gloves
Whole-arm length plastic obstetrical sleeves
KY or OB Lube
Weak kid syringe
Nasal aspirator or straw tickle nose get them sneeze
Weigh tape or scale  to weigh kids at birth.
Rectal Thermometer     Average goat temp 101-103ish
Extension cord for heat lamps
plastic cup or dixie cups for dipping navels in iodine
Drenching syringe
Balling guns tube (feeding tube fits on end)
Clock
Surgical scrub
pritchard nipples & soda/water bottle
*MEDS/VITs/ETC*
*Probios-* Either probiotic gel designed for baby goats to pick up their appetite and get the rumen going. Or Probios powder 5 grams kids 10 grams adults
*Baking soda * -  to treat acidosis, floppy kid SEE FLOPPY KID INFO BELOW for TREAT
*Bovi Sera  *5 cc of to provide the essential antibodies the babies must have to build a strong immune system. Inject subcutaneously or intramuscularly. PREVENTION  as soon after birth as possible. Bovi Sera is an absolute MUST HAVE for any goat owner. Useful in the prevention and treatment of conditions such as pneumonia and enterotoxemia, passive immune failure in newborns and shipping fever complex in adults, Bova Sera provides an immediate boost to the immune system allowing goats to get back on their feet. Bovi Sera acts much the same as Goat Serum although goats are not listed on the label.  Dosage of 10 cc sub-Q injection for adults and 5 cc sub-Q injection for newborns
*VIT E gel caps *  Oral 1 1000 IU capsule squirted on grain daily starting 3 weeks b4 kidding
*BoSe-* (Get from Vet)- 1/4cc per new born to prevent white muscle disease or
*Selenium E Gel*  weak kids or kids with white muscle disease and more. The purpose of having selenium gel in the kidding kit is to administer an appropriate dosage to kids who display those symptoms. Newborn 2ml  ~ Adult 4ml  To be used once every 30 days.
*Colostrom* (natural/instant)To bottle feed kids for first 3 days
*Keto stix or powder *   Checks for ketones in doe for pregnancy toxemia. Signs: Weak doe, acetone breath. Administer *Propeline Gycol *if ketosis is present at freshening. Can supplement sugar or molasses in water
*Propylene glycol or a recipe* and supplies for homemade ketosis remedy to treat ketosis
*Goat Nutra Drench *Give orally. Newborns: 4 cc at birth Adults: 1 oz or 30 cc per 100 lbs of body weight
OR *Vitamin A, D, E, B12 *gel for does and kids after kidding
OR *Replamin gel* (vitamins and amino acid chelated minerals) for boosting immune systems and great for helping with side effects of copper deficiency : Replamin 2-5 cc per head depending on the weight. *This has excellent ratings!*
*CMPK gel* (Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus &Potassium for the does b4 n after kidding)
*MFO i*n case of milk fever DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION: Administer orally as a drench. The usual dose for adult cattle is 500 mL.
*Calcium Gluconate* also treats milk fever
*Chewable vit C or drench Vit C
Gas relief drops
Pepto Bismol & Baking soda *FLOPPY KID SYNDROME SEE BELOW
*Fortified Vitamin B Complex* – injectable
*Antibiotic*  – to treat illness, re tained placenta -  SEE BELOW ANTIBIOTIC CLIPS
*MAGIC MIX *Stressed or lethargic 1 part Molasses, 2parts corn syrup, 1 part Corn Oil. Always have on hand.


*Kidding NOTES & ER info*
Month Five in the Gestation Period V*accinate does for enterotoxemia ( Clostridium perfringens C&D) and tetanus (CDT)* (about 2 to 4 weeks prior to kidding.)  * 

Dewormer:* treat adult does approximately one week prior to kidding with a safe for pregnant does product. Ivermectin is safe for pregnant does but does not kill tapeworms, Safeguard is safe for pregnant does to kill tapes. PLEASE look up milk withdrawal periods. Valbazen is NOT safe for pregnant does so please do homework before worming!

At 5 weeks prior to freshening, start to *increase the doe's daily intake of grain.* The major growth formation of the kids is in the last month, it is important that the doe gets enough food for herself and her growing kids. Her daily intake of grain should double over a 7 day span and continue during the last 4 weeks of pregnancy and continue for her lactation period to keep in condition. *DO NOT OVERFEED Grains can lead to Toxemia, see PREGNANCY TOXEMIA BELOW*

*BoSe/ Sel E Gel d*ose to mom goats 4 weeks b4 kidding. Administer appropriate dosage of Selenium E Gel to weak kids or kids with white muscle disease etc.
sel e gel dosage =Newborn 2ml  ~ Adult 4ml  To be used once every 30 days.

*Fiasco Suggests: Vitamin E 1 capsule *(500-1000 IU) oral squirted on grain daily, starting 3 weeks b4 kidding.  They find supplementing Vit E before kidding aids in easier delivery.

2 weeks prior to kidding is *optional to clip/shave her udder and rear of hair.* This enables her to stay cleaner after she does freshen.

In last 2 wks of pregnancy if you put a hand just in front of udder and lift you should feel limbs. This method can also be used during kidding to feel if more kids to come.
*Pregnancy Toxemia*
Can Occur within 2  weeks of kidding and 2 weeks after kidding, also known as ketosis. The doe uses her own fat to feed her kids and herself, giving off ketones in the system, causing the doe and kids to become toxic. Ketosis is brought on by an imbalance to food intake. This can either happen if fed too much or too little grain. Be careful with how you feed during the late stages of pregnancy.  *Keto stix Checks for ketones *in doe for pregnancy toxemia. Signs: Weak doe, acetone breath. If Ketones are mild = bump grain 10-15% per day and check ketones daily if Ketones are high = give 30-60cc of propylene glycol 2-3x a day AND bump grain 10-15% Repeat urine ketone readings - when gets low to normal, discontinue use of *propylene glycol*. Administer as drench Propeline Gycol if ketosis is present at freshening.  *SEE BELOW for more INFO ON PREGNANCY TOXEMIA Treatment.*

*Getting Closer to Kidding WHEN WILL SHE KID?*
As your doe is days away from kidding, you will notice changes in her. She will start to paw her straw as if making a nest, time to place her in her own kidding pen. Restlessness, getting up and down, moving, pawing about 24 - 48 hours before kidding. Mucas plug anytime from a few weeks to days to just at kidding! This whiteish goop was well out two weeks from kidding.... 





*Signs that your doe is going into labor:*
Hollowing out of the hips. kids will drop, doe appears to have lost a lot of weight hip bones
Vulva bigger redder softer, but about 5-6 hrs before actual kidding it will suddenly look
Sunken or withdrawn,as seen in 2nd images below, soon after that the first clear liquids
images from MikeLM  *Mucas plug and later sunken look JUST A FEW HRS BEFORE LABOR NOTE THE CLEARISH GREEN LOOK? it isnt the white look as above image*





Bloodshot eyes, she is within hours of kidding.
Mucus plug that is released about 8 hours prior to kidding. It may come in short little lengths at first. A long milky string is a sure sign that the time is fast approaching. But sometimes a wk b4.
Talking to babies
Affectionate
Udder will fill slowly during the last 4 weeks of of pregnancy. Udder will fill, become firmer and may have a shine to it. If no milk in teats the teats are floppy
The teats fill about 24 hours prior to kidding but do NOT milk any out.
Tail ligaments loosen.
Kids moving. If  you can feel the kids moving within the doe, you have about 12 hours to wait. Kids can be felt or seen on the right side of the doe. When they move into position, movement becomes almost nonexistent.
Heavy breathing and a worried look. Her breaths will become very long and labored.
Off feed
She lies down and vocalizes as the tail rising and falls, the beginning of heavy labor
Water can break

*Stage II Labor*
Does will lie down or stand up and squat to contract. When the doe starts pushing, you may see a water bag protruding from the vaginal opening. The bag may burst or may come out intact. You will sometimes see a bubble come out and go back in with each contraction and is normal. A 2nd bag, filled with dark fluid, may appear. They are membranes holding amniotic fluid. Sometimes, does will throw their head backwards and "scream" all normal! The contractions will start to come closer and stronger, she will stretch all four legs out as she is lying on her side. As the contractions and pushing become stronger you will see two little feet and then a head come which is resting on the feet. As long as progress is being made, there is no reason to assist. Another good push and the kids shoulders with body following, come out. Does that take longer than 2 hours to deliver or does that have a fetus visible that don’t deliver in 20-30 minutes is a problem. Sometimes assistance is needed sooner depending on the presentation of the baby. REMEMBER 2 feet with the dewclaws toward the floor, followed by a nose, or a foot and a nose. 2 rear feet is not too big of a deal most of the time but in that position dewclaws should be pointing up toward the ceiling. Concern should be when you only see a nose, a front and a back foot, a tail, or possibly 2 feet that seem right position but may belong to different babies, possible coloring or size.

If you must assist as in a single normal birth by GENTLY pulling the kids out and DOWN. Once the first kid is delivered, the others should follow within 20-30 minutes each. IF the time between extends longer than that, assistance in needed.
SEE LABOR DELIVERY SECTION BELOW FOR PROBLEMS/CONCERNS/ASSISTANCE

*After kidding, the Dam*
She is tired and exhausted, put hay within her reach so she does not have to stand to give her time to regain her strength. Offer some grain to your doe. Once all kids are delivered, *give doe warm water and molasses mixture.* Molasses is High in iron & sugar! Dont over do it a 1/2 cup of molasses to 2 Gal warm water should be plenty! Goats love really warm water esp in winter!

Your doe will pass an *afterbirth or placenta *after all kids are delivered. Usually this will occur within 2 hours for delivery, but should happen within 12. Do NOT assist in taking the placenta from the doe. If you pull on it, you can cause permanent damage to the uterus and possible internal bleeding resulting in death. Sometimes when the placenta is passed the doe will have contractions as if delivering another kid. Some does will eat the afterbirth.  Some let them eat placenta, some do not. Some feel it's the natural thing to do for nutrients, and others say it can mess up the gut of the doe.  For a few days after kidding, your doe will will have a bloody discharge. If it is flowing and looks like hemorrhaging, call your vet STAT. After a few days of the bloody discharge, your doe will continue discharging fluids, but the color and consistency will be that of reddish-brown. All is normal and may come on and off over the next 3 - 4 weeks.The placenta should come out in 6-12 hours. Doe may need some medication to increase the involution of the uterus, such as *oxytocin and penicillin. After 24 hours, Call VET. If does become lethargic and have fever.  SEE rx OXYTOCIN INFO BELOW! Post kidding sections below.*
_image from MikeLM _* a healthy placenta


 *
*Umbilical Cords* If the umbilical cord not break during delivery, tie it off about two inches from the kids stomach using sterile dental floss and then about 4 inches past the first tie. Dip the dental floss in iodine first. Using scissors cut the cord between the two ties.  Sometimes the cord will break during delivery and be long, you can tie it off  about two inches from the kids belly with dental floss and cut the cord about an inch from the tie.  Leave the floss on the cord and trim close to the knot. Proceed to dip the cord in iodine.

*Taking care of the kids*
Make sure all are healthy and suckling from their mom. For Nigeria Dwarfs get colostrum into them within a half hour to an hour after birth. *Make sure the milk plug is released from each teat prior to getting the kids on the teat*. Do this by milking out a couple squirts of colostrum. The smell of the colostrum will help in stimulating the kid to find the teat and suckle. Within a few minutes kids are up on their feet and looking for the udder. Once the kids have had their fill of colostrum if there is time between the kids being delivered, *navels should be dipped in 7% tincture of iodine.* *The first poop*s of kids comes out in a black tarry type consistency, after a couple of days this will change to a yellow looking stool for a few days and then finally to the greenish black color and shape of the adult goat. *Give kids 5 cc of Bovi Sera or Replamin *to provide the essential antibodies the babies must have to build a strong immune system.

*KIDS LEGS*
Sometimes the kids legs are pinned in the womb in some strange positions and they the rear legs to have an almost double-jointed appearance where the hocks bend in the wrong direction. Leg problems generally work themselves out over the first week or two as they get to running around and strengthening their muscles, if they can get to a teat and nurse (you need to help them), they will be fine. Some take a day to get right, others can take a week. As long as are slowly getting straight and improving, all should be fine.  Do not splint them as it can make them weak unless absolutely necessary.

*LABOR DELIVERY Concerns & 30 Minute Rule *
*When you see real labor pushing 30 min later you should see bubble, 30 mins later fetal parts, 30 mins later birth.  Repeat each kid. If any steps go longer than 30 mins its time to intervene.* (sometimes you can't tell the pushing heavy labor part if a doe is low on Calcium or other issue)  Your doe is in hard labor, pushing with nothing happening for over 30 minutes. Time to go inside and help her or if you can not handle it yourself, call that friend of yours or the vet. A doe should not be in hard labor for over an hour. If she is, exhaustion will take over and she will not be able to the deliver the kids. There should only be about 30 minutes between multiple birth kids, if the time between extends longer then that, assistance is needed.

*If you need to enter the doe,* Wash hands and arms thoroughly with antiseptic/ disinfectant up to your elbows. When reaching in the doe, use GLOVES and lots of OB lubricant. Short finger nails. No jewelry. Point fingers straight with thumb along-side.  Keep fingers together at all times so you don't poke with a finger.  STOP pushing forward with each contraction, just stay where you are and rest until contraction is over and then continue easing forward. As you enter, she will try to push you back out. Continue in slowly until you can feel what is being presented in the birth canal. Become familiar with the anatomy of the kid so as you feel blindly, you can tell what you are feeling. Closing your eyes helps to  "see" inside.  _*If you have difficulty with kidding position and can't move the kids inside, use a hay bale and put it under doe's belly to lift her hind legs off ground so that kid slips further back into doe. Need to get both legs together along with head.*_

*Kidding Positions ~Corner Stone Farm A Great visual for Kid Presentations Normal and AbNorm!*
scroll to Illustrations HERE  http://www.cornerstonefarm.net/kidding.html

*ACV (apple Cider Vinegar w/mother) PREGNANCY*
Info from Pat Coleby Natural Goat Care: Most common result of potassium deficiency is difficult birth. In short term *Cider Vinegar has enough potassium to enable goats to kid normally. *She goes into why it helps in detail. ACV is high in potassium, which aids in keeping the blood flowing properly, an activity that is very important for our pregnant does, most especially when she is carrying multiples. It also assists with the uptake and processing of calcium, phosphorous, and copper by individual cells, another very important action for successful pregnancy. Slowly introduce and give 30 ml (2 Tbsp.) of apple cider vinegar per day during late gestation can put in water or on grain.  _There is an old wives tale about ACV making more does than bucks too. _

*Post kidding*
The placenta of a healthy birth will look like healthy organ tissue. Dark smelly placentas are associated with births having dead kids.* Use of oxytocin rx *to help the uterus contract is recommended only if the doe comes in with little or no milk, or if you believe there is partial retained placenta. Oxytocin will help in milk let down. It takes about 20 minutes to work and then 20 minutes to contract the uterus, which reduces the uterus to about 2/3 its size in about 40 minutes. USE OXYTOCIN SPARINGLY and only after 48 hours has elapsed after a bad birth.

*When can / should I use oxytocin? Oxytocin is a vet-obtained drug so should have instructions for use. *First, it can be used when the doe exhibits uterine inertia – when she is fully dilated, the kid is properly positioned, and the doe needs some extra assistance to get uterine contractions. Secondly, oxytocin can be used after kidding to have the milk “let down” – when all kids are delivered and oxytocin can be used for milk production stimulation, third, oxytocin can be used to encourage uterine contractions to expel the placenta, or as an aid to metritis treatment.






Within the first few days after delivery, make sure to *check lower inner eyelid color of DAM for signs of anemia. Why and how to do FAMACHA Scoring     https://youtu.be/I5rcuvVG56Q  *WATCH VIDEO Most don't Look at inner eye membrane Correctly! There is more to it than simply pulling the bottom of eye down!

*Fortified B Complex-*For Dam to replace the B vitamins in the rumen *ALWAYS FOR MULTIPLE BIRTHS to help dam regain health *2.5 mL per 50  pounds of body weight. May be repeated daily, if indicated. Normal weight in Nigerian dwarf adult goats after first year 75 lbs

*BLOAT? COCCIDIOSIS PREVENTION:* Starting at 3 weeks old, Feed 1/2 cc of DiMethox 40% (currently unavailable) or 1.5 cc DiMethox 12.5% ORALLY twice a day for one week, then once a week until weaned. Identify the cause – if a fever, can be infectious cause such as E coli or clostridial. The most common cause is nutritional – too little or too much milk or the wrong quality of milk.  No, kids cannot, and do not, get parasites for at least 30+ days – be it coccidia or any other parasite.

*BoSe / E Sel* dosage to mom goats 4 weeks b4 kidding, and kids if chilled at birth

*Floppy kid syndrome *(FKS) SEE BELOW FOR MORE INFO and Treatment
A ‘quick n dirty’ test I use is to rub some karo or pancake syrup on the gums of the kid to give an energy boost – if is weak, will see some reaction (usually), a FKS kid will not respond as well as there are bigger issues than lack of calories/energy.

*Tube feeding* Video links - best equipment and how to tube feed. Video by a veterinarian 



 and 



*
Bottle Feeding *
How often, how much, and how long?  Nutrition is about the kid not your sleeping habits.
Feeding is based on an assumption that 20-30% of body weight is to be consumed the first few weeks to support optimal growth and health. Use mama milk or a quality goat kid milk replacer – cow milk recipes are sub-standard and will not provide the same energy and nutrients, and the stomach only holds so much. The amount to feed is *always* going to be 4 oz (120cc) per 5 lbs of body weight (even of colostrum days 0 thru 2 or 3), the interval changes as get older and that then reduces the percentage. Small changes up or down are fine – the animal may have a faster or slower metabolism

Day 0 to 3 weeks – every 4 hours
3 wks to 6 or 8 wks - every 6 hours
6 or 8 wks to 12 wks – every 8 hours
12wks to 14 or 16 – every 12 hours, tapering down to once per day at 14 or 16 weeks, then quit

*IMPORTANT BOTTLE FEEDING INFO! *
Sudden bloat/death kid that is 7 days or younger, suspect a ruminal drinker or clostridial infection. A ruminal drinker does not get all milk to the stomach, with some of it ending up in the immature rumen and fermenting – this causes bloat. *It can be avoided with proper positioning when feeding with a bottle – head down and almost on knees like would be trying to nurse from mom – this allows the “esophageal groove” to direct milk straight to the stomach.  *



*Constipated kids in the first week *
First, are they eating enough? Little in = little out. Cow milk is one culprit (low on fat and protein so less solids to defecate) as is not nursing. Poor quality replacers are another cause  Is the anus clean? Mom licks it clean regularly and this stimulates defecating, so you can mimic this action with a warm washcloth. If all else fails, get a warm bowl of water t 100 degrees or so, add a drop or two of Dawn plain soap  and gently infuse ~1cc per lb of kid weight of water into the rectum – slowly. In a while should get a poop, and if not that is OK as well – usually the water is expelled if there is no feces. If nothing in 10-15 minutes, repeat once. Do *not* use Fleet enema or human types.

*Pellets/grains feed Start  At 4 *weeks is when most kids can be introduced to pellets. You can try as newborns (1st week), but they are just going to play with the pellet.

*INFO ON VITS MINERALS MEDS: *
*(that were listed above)*






*Replamin Gel Plus D*IRECTIONS: GOAT: 2-5 cc per head depending on the weight. Use as a supplemental source of minerals and vitamins during periods of stress (such as weaning, moving and castration) during which feed intakes may be decreased and during which supplemental nutrients may be of benefit or as a source of supplemental nutrition for animals which may have mineral and/or vitamin deficiencies. Ingredients: Magnesium, Potassium, Cobalt, Copper, Maganese, Selenium, Zinc, Vitamin A, Vitamin D, Biotin, Thiamine, Choline







*Selenium E gel Dosage:*
Weak Floppy kid Syndrome Newborn 2ml  ~ Adult 4ml  if needed 4 wks B4 delivery







Each 10 mL dose of *Vitamin ADE & B12 Gel *provides minimum:
500,000 IU vitamin A
100,000 IU vitamin D3
100 IU vitamin E
3,000 mcg vitamin B12
and probotics
One (1) dose every 7 days Directions for dosing: goats - 5 mL.





Directions for dosing* C.M.P.K. Gel:*
Give 1 tube within 6-12 hrs prior to calving
Give another tube within 6-12 hrs after calving
Administer near the back of the mouth and empty contents, allowing the cow to swallow







*MFO Solution* for Cattle
For use in cattle for milk fever, grass tetany and wheat pasture poisoning.
500 mL contains 10 g calcium, 2.76 g magnesium, 6.03 g phosphorus, 75 g dextrose and 5.25 g potassium. Give orally as a drench.  Dosage: Cattle - 250-500 mL.

*Calcium Gluconate *Solution Administer IV sometimes ORAL.
For prompt treatment of milk fever. May be used when deficiencies of these components appear.





*
Kaeco Colostrum Oral Gel*
Administer 10 mL to newborn goats as soon as possible after birth. Administer 10 mL on the second day and third day. 1 tube is 3 doses.
Contains a source of 5 probiotics, dried colostrum, vitamins A, D3, E and B12 and trace minerals. Supplies a source of maternal antibodies and protein





*Goat and Sheep Nutri-Drench*
Beneficial in any stress condition. Maximize performance and stamina in show. Delivers high energy, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, electrolytes and antioxidants in minutes.
Dramatic response for Goat and Sheep Nutri-Drench: weak newborns appetite diarrhea
multiple birth antibiotic/vaccine response travel and heat stress
*Give orally. Newborns: 4 cc at birth Adults: 1 oz or 30 cc per 100 lbs of body weight*
INGREDIENTS: propylene glycol, molasses products, calcium carbonate, choline chloride, DL-methionine, l-lysine, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin A supplement, Vitamin D-3 supplement, thiamine, niacin, zinc sulfate, ethylenediamine dihydroiodide, magnesium sulfate, manganese sulfate, iron sulfate, sodium selenite, cobalt sulfate, sugar.
*
My snips of Vit C*



*My Snips of Antibiotic*
 

*Parturient Paresis (Milk fever, Hypocalcemia)*
Early hypocalcemia in sheep, the most commonly noted signs are stiff gait, ataxia, salivation, constipation, and depressed rumen motility, progressing to hyposensitivity, bloat, recumbency, loss of anal reflex and, if untreated, death. Tachycardia may be present; heart sounds are quieter than normal. Often when recumbent, ewes are in a sternal frog-lying position, with the hindlegs extended behind. Goats have a similar presentation, although muscle tremors are more commonly seen than in sheep.
*MFO Solution for Cattle *For use in cattle for milk fever, grass tetany and wheat pasture poisoning.  500 mL contains 10 g calcium, 2.76 g magnesium, 6.03 g phosphorus, 75 g dextrose and 5.25 g potassium. Give orally as a drench.  Dosage: Cattle - 250-500 mL.
*Calcium Gluconate Solution Administer IV *For prompt treatment of milk fever. May be used when deficiencies of these components appear.
*
Pregnancy Toxemia*
This disease occurs within two weeks of kidding and 2 weeks after kidding, also known as ketosis. The doe uses her own fat to feed her kids and herself, giving off ketones in the system, causing the doe and kids to become toxic. Ketosis is brought on by an imbalance to food intake. This can either happen if fed too much or too little grain. Be careful with how you feed during the late stages of pregnancy.  Keto stix Checks for ketones in doe for pregnancy toxemia. Signs: Weak doe, acetone breath. If Ketones are mild = bump grain 10-15% per day and check ketones daily if Ketones are high = give 30-60cc of propylene glycol 2-3x a day AND bump grain 10-15% Repeat urine ketone readings - when gets low to normal, discontinue use of propylene glycol. Administer as drench Propeline Gycol if ketosis is present at freshening.  SEE BELOW for more INFO ON PREGNANCY TOXEMIA Treatment.
*Oral treatment: * Molasses & Karo syrup  2 parts Karo(cornsyrup)  to 1 part molasses.
20 to 30 ml every 2 hours.  Try this first as it tastes better than PG below. * Propylene Glycol is an appetite suppressant and it inhibits rumen bacteria, so do not use unless the doe is off her feed. Fiasco dosages* 3-4 oz (90-120ml) 2 times a day, for 2 days, and then 1-2 oz (30ml-60ml) 2 times daily until the doe is eating normally. or 10 - 20ml every 2 hours. * Nutridrench Goatdrench:* 2 oz. 2 times a day. BComplex and Probios. Give *Children's Chewable Vitamins w/ extra Calcium:* If the doe will eat them, feed her 2-4 a day.

*FLOPPY KID SYNDROME! *Kids are born healthy, and up bouncing around… But then suddenly, starting anywhere from 3 to 10 days after birth, they're down and showing signs of depression, weakness, and flaccid paralysis. Affected kids can still swallow, but can’t use their tongues to suckle. Rectal temperature is normal... There are no advance warning signs. The one obvious clinical sign is distention of the abdomen. If blood chemistry is done, an unexplainable acidosis is apparent.   
*TREATMENT SUGGESTIONS VIA Texas A&M University: *
The first thing that we recommend is to leave affected kids off milk for 24 to 36 hrs. Again, because the kids look very weak, it has been difficult to convince goat producers that the problem is due to overfeeding and not to lack of energy. However, keeping kids temporarily off milk is probably the single most important thing in treating these cases. Secondly, the acidity of the stomach needs to be neutralized by administering a bicarbonate (baking soda) solution. For this purpose, dissolve 1 teaspoon of baking soda in one glass of water and administer 10-20 ml of this solution orally. Repeat this procedure 2 to 3 times in the following 3 to 6 hours. Most kids will show clear improvement with this treatment within the following 6 to 10 hours. Treated kids first become more active and will initially pass very solid feces that subsequently turn into diarrhea. This is a good sign and an indication that the intestines are moving again. The third part of the treatment consist of administering a wide spectrum antibiotic to prevent secondary infections. After 36 hours the affected kids can be put back with their mothers if they take them. Otherwise they would need to be raised on a milk substitute. Initially, artificial milk needs to be diluted with water and small amounts of milk (100 ml) need to be given 3 to 4 times a day for the first 2 days, then follow the manufacturers instructions.

**********************************************************************************************************************************************************************
*UPDATE*
So May 25th *The Pheebe* our brown doe had Healthy Beautiful twin bucklings! 
NO ISSUES!!! Thank the Good Lord! 

*A few notes of things I learned that I didn't know SO FAR! *
(remember these are MY notes I _jotted down _and things I noticed and are for sharing my experiences)

First and foremost,* ligaments* are unreliable as I checked her a few hours before she kidded and they were solid as before, they are forever changing in elasticity and drove me insane but its true at kidding they are completely gone, by then I would assume I know she is having a kid.

Also unreliable is the ity bits of *mucus plug *white looking sometimes only a tint of green. I noticed the really clear green stuff is a bit closer to kidding. 

*Udder:* It didnt get a whole lot bigger just before or just after either lol. it filled a bit more meaning the teats had a more frontward tilt, but it wasnt an instant change either. Its really not as big as I thought it would get nor are the teats, but I am new at all this, I guess I had this image in my mind with a hand full of teat milking  perhaps I need bigger goats? more? 

*BABY CAM* in the Kidding PEN: I am so glad I put it in there! Craigslist, Ebay, local sales on FB, where ever ask a friend... WORTH the cash! I suggest you research the distance in feet to your kidding area first and if you have good wi fi you can set up a wi fi system which I wish we had, I would have one in every pen all the time! Anyways, If it wasn't for the monitor, I wouldn't have heard ONE off sounding scream? nah not really a scream just off a bit enough to make me look at the monitor and see her already laying with her legs straight out pushing and a black blob on the ground behind her.... _<insert run in oversized night Tshirt, grab basket of kidding supplies, sweatshirt, glasses, barely charged cell, no socks so opt for flip flops..... pouring, wet muddy, this cant go well right?>_

NOTE: It wont hurt to have an* extra cell charger* already in your kidding kit! I know, I know, we didn't have any of these things days gone by, but we do now and I would have liked to share this with my kids via video a bit more if I could have! 

Sooo... There is Pheebes laying there licking clean a black and white little adorable kid, I am so excited I am shaking and so happy its head is upright and bobbing! (I breed English springer spaniels so birth is nothing that new to me, but this was still extremely exciting!) I kick my flip flops into the corner and search for the nasal aspirater, duh its still in the package I forgot to clean it! Grabbed the rub alcohol bottle, cleaned inside out and dried well too, then cleaned the kid. Good thing I did because I actually got a big string of goop from the back of the throat, the nose was clear, as the kid sneezed clear just fine.

As far as cleaning the baby, she did it all. It was shivering so I did grab it and take a old bath towel that I had cut in half and rubbed him briskly as mom was still licking him too. Worked great when he was fluffy he stopped being so chilled and started to try to get up right away! I dipped his Cord in the iodine, I forgot the cheap bathroom cups so I had to use the little jar I had aready had in the basket, (the cups I think are well worth getting because we use them to dip teats after milking anyways) 

*Sooooo The pic belows says 12:15AM first born..... (next born was 12:30) *
(yes I was still in my night shirt at that time, dont ask lol) 





The puppy pads I didn't like to wipe the kids down, they are nice to put under the does behind and mine  or under the kids though! Papertowels well I think that was just wasteful on so much goop and mom tries to eat them but GREAT for my own hands. *Hand Sanitizer a BIG bottle* is great! I didnt have time to take a water bucket out to wash my hands or anything. Nor did I think to _*WASH my hands b4 I ran out! I know I am OCD but I may do a bleach teat wash recipe from fiasco, the one drop blue dawn, 2 Tablespoons Clorox to quart water and put in a container I can seal *_and keep out there so I can just open it to wash my own hands for next girl. 

Pheebe was up and walking licking the baby a bit, I was worried as I read to get the kid on the teat withing half hour of kidding, I honestly had no clue of the time. All I can say is,_* time is going much slower than you probably think it is so try to relax. *_Pheebe cried one or two times not bad at all looking at her butt and laid back down, one loud scream cry here comes the next baby legs out and just like that the baby slipped out easily, still in the sack. 

This is where I will add the VIT E before delivery does WORK! I know it does, I have delivered four of my own children and I also have found the benefits of vit e orally and _other_ before deliver, If I had known for my first kids I probably wouldn't have had as many issues and ripped so bad, sorry it is what it is, its amazing stuff! Info on Vit E is above in the Kidding list.... 

Pheebe just laid there chewing her cud, the kid was born still in its sack and she is chewing cud? like now? really Pheebe? she looks at me a baaaaahhhh just a light little lazy baaaahhh, I swear she said, go ahead I know you want to... I told her, oh no this is your deal, I had my kids, its all on you girl..... she baaahhh again this time even more pitful. I sat and waited.... 
and waited

now remember where I just said time is probably going much slower than you think? well ya, IDK I just dont know,  she baah baah one last time and it threw me over the edge, I grabbed a fresh towel and the aspirator and tore open the sack only at its head, dried its head and cleared it. pulled him halfway up to momma and made her do the rest...... she was happy to do so then  
*12:30 kid 2*





ok I had no clue if she was done or not, but cared for this kid the same and checked to see gender etc. moms privates looked fine, she was up and licking them good and urging the new baby up. All went great!

I was going to wipe moms utters off because she was so wet from birthing but noticed the kids licked her because of the amniotic fluids so I will assume that is a natural thing! cool! Anyways with clean hands I gave each teat a good squirt or two and the kids did pretty good on their own learning to stand under her and drink.... 
This is mom after birth....





Didn't do anything to the hanging out stuffs above image, it was short enough she wasn't pulling on it or anything, And I know we are not to pull on it at all or can bleed the doe. Anyways, about 2 hours later her placenta came out... 
*NOTE.. <if you have to run to go to the potty> dont let your kids watch them for you unless you explain to them that the placenta may come out and that the white things in it are not worms they are veins  or they will scream to you in the video monitor for their dear lives to come quick its the end of the world. Or you could stand and watch them in the monitor and Laugh your butt off at them....... *






 








pics of them a few hours after they were born.... AND
(I know how could somethings so cute come after such gross images eh? well because it is whut it is I guess) 




















THANK YOU FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HELPED ME AND ALL THE INTERNET FOR THE LOADS OF INFO OUT THERE FOR ALL OF US TO GRAB AND FILL OUR BRAINS WITH!!!


----------



## norseofcourse (May 9, 2017)

I'm sure others with goat experience will chime in on the list, but I hope you don't need a lot of that stuff, and most births are uncomplicated, thank heavens.

I might suggest a plastic cup instead of a glass baby food jar for the iodine - I worry about breaking anything made of glass around animals (or me...).

The whole-arm length plastic obstetrical sleeves are great, both for if you need to assist with kidding (or lambing), and for placenta disposal.  Pick up the placenta in gloved hand, invert sleeve, and the placenta is nicely contained.  Tie a knot in the sleeve and dispose.  Do NOT, I repeat do NOT toss the placenta-in-a-glove out of the kidding pen - it will break on impact.  Also do NOT EVER leave it in a sunny back porch for three days before the trash gets picked up, unless you want to breed a massive amount of flies


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 10, 2017)

norseofcourse said:


> I'm sure others with goat experience will chime in on the list, but I hope you don't need a lot of that stuff, and most births are uncomplicated, thank heavens.
> 
> I might suggest a plastic cup instead of a glass baby food jar for the iodine - I worry about breaking anything made of glass around animals (or me...).
> 
> The whole-arm length plastic obstetrical sleeves are great, both for if you need to assist with kidding (or lambing), and for placenta disposal.  Pick up the placenta in gloved hand, invert sleeve, and the placenta is nicely contained.  Tie a knot in the sleeve and dispose.  Do NOT, I repeat do NOT toss the placenta-in-a-glove out of the kidding pen - it will break on impact.  Also do NOT EVER leave it in a sunny back porch for three days before the trash gets picked up, unless you want to breed a massive amount of flies


  thank you!  I pray we dont need most of it! I have both kinds of gloves, yeppers! And ewwwwww


----------



## Southern by choice (May 10, 2017)

You'll be prepared for a lifetime! 

Typically we take out a bin of towels, puppy pads, nasal aspirator, gloves. That's it.
We take the kids in the house weight and dip cords. We don't use floss unless we have a cord so long that it needs trimmed.

Of course all the other stuff is on hand- we have a stocked cabinet but generally these things don;'t get used. 
This kidding season was our first with pregnancy toxemia.
We have had to go in and untangle kids , turn a head around etc. 

If these are your first kids be very careful that you don't go giving stuff that is unnecessary. 

Impressed with your preparation.

You should always have pritchard nipples on hand and a soda bottle in case for whatever reason you need to give a bottle! ALWAYS!
Always check the flow after kidding because if the colostrum is too thick and the kids cannot get it out you will think they are nursing... they will even look like they have but that white foam isn't milk it is just saliva from the attempt. If colostrum is super thick ( think refrigeration honey) and kids cannot get it out them milk into a jar - save that colostrum - it is like liquid gold-
Milk again 30 minutes later til you start having more of a stream. You can dilute the thick colostrum and give by bottle or wait til more milky like.



Sally Sunshine said:


> Rectal Thermometer Average goat temp 102-104


Typically you want 101-103ish. For most if a goat is heading at 103.5 and over they are feverish. like I said typically.  If we have a goat at 103.5 they are running a fever.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 10, 2017)

Yep I still am feeding three kids so I have plenty of bottle supplies too, I didnt read anything about the thickness of the colostrum thanks, great to know!  I have tons of notes and I am sure I didnt cover everything that could come up just like that thickness possibility.  I can show you them later to look over.  I hope I can trim all them today trying to figure out how as I dont yet have a stanchion made, so maybe later on.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

@Southern by choice   I updated with my notes, can you read through when you get a chance please, any wrong or any suggestions or things I need to know or tips tricks appreciated!!  I am ready for this me thinks!!  <bites nails>


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

why did it post the video links instead of just putting down the link?  sorry I just wanted links I have to show you!


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)




----------



## nstone630 (May 11, 2017)

With that list you'll be set for life! I hope you don't need more than just a few items there! You'll do great!  Let the wait begin.


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2017)

That's a lot of stuff you have.
One thing I learned from another breeder.  If you have some old newspapers and are there when the kids are born, lay the kids on the newspaper when born.
Soaks up some of the fluid and keeps the bedding from sticking to them.

Of course that maybe what you are using the puppy pads for.
But, the newspaper works great soaks in the fluid.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

can colostrum be stored for next year emergency if so doesnt that take away from kids?  if it can be stored that long HOW? Thanks!  I was just reading some of the book I got by pat coleby very interesting stuff about trying to keep does on feet to birth and also ACV (potassium) and how much it can help in the long run during labor and deliv.  The chapter is fairly small about kidding though.


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2017)

Generally speaking, most does will make more than the kids will use.
You can freeze colostrum.
We usually will milk a little out of a doe in the first day or so if we see her getting tight and freeze that.
And then maybe 36 hours after they are born, milk her out pretty good and then freeze that as well.

We have some does that do stand when they kids, but I think most probably lay on their side.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Thanks, do you know typical time periods they run colostrum?


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

Yes you can store colostrum. Freeze in ice cube trays... once frozen store in freezer zip lock and label... replace every year.
Some of our does do stand, others lay down... whatever they want to do is fine by us.
If we have a doe that is having a long labor and is tired.... for some does they may be in stage one (barely noticable) but it still affects the body, we will actually give nutri-drench. If they suck it down they need it if not then they don't.
Our goats are not raised on sweet feed or molasses so they don't like it BUT when they need it they will take it eagerly.
We have had a few does that just got wore out with second stage... we gave drench and within 20 minutes they were pushing the kid out.

Oh, make sure you have a stool, or cinder block or something for them to stand their front legs on... often several days before and all the way up to kidding they may need to manipulate the kids inside for birthing. Climbing and stretching is how hey do this. They sometimes will step on the stool wiggle and arch.... they are positioning.


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> can colostrum be stored for next year emergency if so doesnt that take away from kids?  if it can be stored that long HOW? Thanks!  I was just reading some of the book I got by pat coleby very interesting stuff about trying to keep does on feet to birth and also ACV (potassium) and how much it can help in the long run during labor and deliv.  The chapter is fairly small about kidding though.



I have her book too and love it!  I gave my goats ACV consistently before they kidded (this was two or three years ago).  First time the placentas came out so fast!  On another note, I give mine an herbal dewormer with 2 tablespoons ACV and every other week 5-6mls of Cod Liver Oil. They love that mix (well, two out of three them do)!


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes you can store colostrum. Freeze in ice cube trays... once frozen store in freezer zip lock and label... replace every year.
> Some of our does do stand, others lay down... whatever they want to do is fine by us.
> If we have a doe that is having a long labor and is tired.... for some does they may be in stage one (barely noticable) but it still affects the body, we will actually give nutri-drench. If they suck it down they need it if not then they don't.
> Our goats are not raised on sweet feed or molasses so they don't like it BUT when they need it they will take it eagerly.
> ...



Never heard or done that with the block or stool.


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Oh, make sure you have a stool, or cinder block or something for them to stand their front legs on... often several days before and all the way up to kidding they may need to manipulate the kids inside for birthing. Climbing and stretching is how hey do this. They sometimes will step on the stool wiggle and arch.... they are positioning.



How neat! Did not know that but my Lamancha has done it when pregnant!


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes you can store colostrum. Freeze in ice cube trays... once frozen store in freezer zip lock and label... replace every year.
> Some of our does do stand, others lay down... whatever they want to do is fine by us.
> If we have a doe that is having a long labor and is tired.... for some does they may be in stage one (barely noticable) but it still affects the body, we will actually give nutri-drench. If they suck it down they need it if not then they don't.
> Our goats are not raised on sweet feed or molasses so they don't like it BUT when they need it they will take it eagerly.
> ...


Wow cool stuff! I have a big bottle of drench, was thinking for kids not does so glad I got it! I breed English Springer Spaniels and that part about the pushing out after 20 sounds like the BREEDERS EDGE CALCIUM PLUS paste I use.  I swear by that stuff!  I didnt take my cell out, its pouring now but I want to get pics again of them since its a week after the last images.  I will post pics of my gang below

This is the message I sent to Mike earlier today....  NOTE THE butt part! 

_Pheebe has a tad more goop. And Pando has hay suck to snooch pulled off was sticky__She doing this weird butt tilt bouncing. Not sure what her Prol is. She was doing it while standing eating hay. Just was weird. I ivermectin all of them earlier._
_Ligaments the same_
_Gave warm water to goats thinking they would pee n could use the ketones strips of course no pee then started to rain.  _

_Both slow and waddle_
_wont jump up on anything, and I caught pandora layin on the ground.  _
_My goats have so many things out there to lay on they NEVER lay on the ground, I have never seen them do it! _


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Oh forgot to mention I have some stumps in there but they may be too high so I will take the kids stools out too.


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> _And Pando has hay suck to snooch pulled off was stickyShe doing this weird butt tilt bouncing. Not sure what her Prol is. She was doing it while standing eating hay. Just was weird. I ivermectin all of them earlier._
> _Ligaments the same_
> _Both slow and waddle_
> _wont jump up on anything, and I caught pandora layin on the ground.  _
> _My goats have so many things out there to lay on they NEVER lay on the ground, I have never seen them do it! _



Does it look kind of like she's arching her bottom? If so, sounds like she's in labor. Are you sure her ligaments are still there? Do they feel hard, super soft,  almost gone, or can you feel them at all?


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Also, have you seen her distancing herself, pawing frequently, getting up and down, or talking more? Those are all signs of labor though, every goat is different and may not follow these signs! Mine usually do show these though. : )


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Percy Pandora Pequot Pheebe I need more pics these are older
Paisley Paddy and Paige (9 week new kids)


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Pioneer Chicken said:


> Does it look kind of like she's arching her bottom? If so, sounds like she's in labor. Are you sure her ligaments are still there? Do they feel hard, super soft,  almost gone, or can you feel them at all?


    I feel ligaments hard yet this am



Pioneer Chicken said:


> Also, have you seen her distancing herself, pawing frequently, getting up and down, or talking more? Those are all signs of labor though, every goat is different and may not follow these signs! Mine usually do show these though. : )


 not really, she is spoiled she is at my side nonstop always.  Pheebe the one I think will go first is always hiding in the pens now, she never took to me like pandora, her brother Pequot was the spoiled one who still thinks he can sit on my lap and fall asleep.  So I guess she sorta got backseat to his pushiness.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

oops.. yes she seems to tilt up her butt and belly down or something its weird.  After kids get home and their dad I hope to head back out, I have the little one now and its pouring.  but if she does it will try a video.  do I need to get it on youtube before I can show you here?


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

They're cute and flashy! What do you raise Nigerians for? I have NDs too! I currently have a registered ND buck and doe along with one Lamancha doe and two soon-to-be wethers. I have them for milking purposes and hope to show sometime soon.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Pioneer Chicken said:


> They're cute and flashy! What do you raise Nigerians for? I have NDs too! I currently have a registered ND buck and doe along with one Lamancha doe and two soon-to-be wethers. I have them for milking purposes and hope to show sometime soon.


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

We have many goats that are "over achievers"... like lots of Nigie folks big litters can be a PITB!  
Our does that xarry 4-5 kids will often lay around ALOT the last 3 weeks... they are just trying to find a comfy spot where they can breathe. We have had does wide open back "there" and thinking oh my goodness they are going to go early... nope they go right on pasttheir day 145  it is just from pressure.

Sounds like she is repositioning. Goats that work at it have far less birth issues and tend to have fewer malpresentations.
Keep in mind back legs out first is a correct position. Many panic.

I would say relax, enjoy the moment.  I have a video on FB from last year I think where a ff was kidding and sh was pushing and the kid seemed stuck... I just took that little stretched out skin and flipped it and pow kid came flying out. I have had kids I have had to PULLLLLLLLLL hard on (not Nigies) .... Nigies are generally easy kidders though.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> We have many goats that are "over achievers"... like lots of Nigie folks big litters can be a PITB!
> Our does that xarry 4-5 kids will often lay around ALOT the last 3 weeks... they are just trying to find a comfy spot where they can breathe. We have had does wide open back "there" and thinking oh my goodness they are going to go early... nope they go right on pasttheir day 145  it is just from pressure.
> 
> Sounds like she is repositioning. Goats that work at it have far less birth issues and tend to have fewer malpresentations.
> ...


  I would love to see your vids!


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

BTW the goats are all so pretty! 
How many do you think she is having? What day is day 145? (I may have missed this)


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> BTW the goats are all so pretty!
> How many do you think she is having? What day is day 145? (I may have missed this)


   you didnt miss anything, <hides under a chair>  I was so worried I wouldnt get kids I left the buck with them, he was young and never seen him even remotely interested....  A big BAD on my part, oh the lessons I will learn!! Its not as simple as taking a temp and knowing when its gonna happen like I can with the dogs here, but I always know the stud is doing his job.  ughhhh


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Not the best udder pics, but these were a week ago, they are both bigger now, and the brown one is biggest, and her teats hang more straight down now.  and she is VERY very round, pandora is more out to the sides and tight.  if that makes sense!  let me see if I can copy paste from fb images of them a week ago


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> oops.. yes she seems to tilt up her butt and belly down or something its weird.  After kids get home and their dad I hope to head back out, I have the little one now and its pouring.  but if she does it will try a video.  do I need to get it on youtube before I can show you here?



I don't know, sorry! I've never posted a video before. : ) 

x2 Southern by Choice - My NDs typically have triplets or quads and rest a lot in the last month of kidding .


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Pheebe needed copper actually they all did, her spotty hair is coming in again.  I thought she had bugs, after treating for two months I realized its copperdef.  duh  anyways, I need to trim them yet, but rain rain rain ughhh 







she is much much bigger now


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

Black and white one is Phoebe?
She looks like trips/quads ... then again they can surprise you . How old is she what kidding is this?


----------



## MikeLM (May 11, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> That's a lot of stuff you have.
> One thing I learned from another breeder.  If you have some old newspapers and are there when the kids are born, lay the kids on the newspaper when born.
> Soaks up some of the fluid and keeps the bedding from sticking to them.
> 
> ...



Newspaper! You just saved me money. i usually use the adult diapers because those are cheaper than puppy pads.


----------



## MikeLM (May 11, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> can colostrum be stored for next year emergency if so doesnt that take away from kids?  if it can be stored that long HOW? Thanks!  I was just reading some of the book I got by pat coleby very interesting stuff about trying to keep does on feet to birth and also ACV (potassium) and how much it can help in the long run during labor and deliv.  The chapter is fairly small about kidding though.



I freeze it in ziplock bags, sandwich size. Dam makes enough to share. I mark them day 1, day 2 and day 3.


----------



## MikeLM (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes you can store colostrum. Freeze in ice cube trays... once frozen store in freezer zip lock and label... replace every year.
> Some of our does do stand, others lay down... whatever they want to do is fine by us.
> If we have a doe that is having a long labor and is tired.... for some does they may be in stage one (barely noticable) but it still affects the body, we will actually give nutri-drench. If they suck it down they need it if not then they don't.
> Our goats are not raised on sweet feed or molasses so they don't like it BUT when they need it they will take it eagerly.
> ...



Do you freeze in ice trays first so you only need to defrost what you need, rather than a whole bag?


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

MikeLM said:


> Do you freeze in ice trays first so you only need to defrost what you need, rather than a whole bag?


Yes trays first this way I know how much each cube is worth, thaws faster too. 
Every kidding season for the past few years someone we know needs some... we are tested every year... so it is nice to give when someone is in need.


----------



## MikeLM (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes trays first this way I know how much each cube is worth, thaws faster too.
> Every kidding season for the past few years someone we know needs some... we are tested every year... so it is nice to give when someone is in need.



Thank you. I'll have to remember that next year, too late for this year. Although, thankfully I have never had to use any.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Spoiled brats worse than trying get pics of puppies! Can't see Pandora udder she dark n hairy.  Another question does now many kids it have any relevance to parents? All my goats were in sets of quads. I'm hoping two each or one each


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Weird butt movements.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Black and white one is Phoebe?
> She looks like trips/quads ... then again they can surprise you . How old is she what kidding is this?


 No black white is Pandora, tan is Pheebe both around 1 in March


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Hmmm... that is interesting!  Maybe @Southern by choice   will have an idea??


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

Dh needs computer trying to figure out why our claws aren't working  ggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
I will be back lol


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Just looked at your website Southern by choice...you've got some fine-looking animals there!!


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

Pioneer Chicken said:


> Just looked at your website Southern by choice...you've got some fine-looking animals there!!



Thank you! I am actually in the middle of updating- UGH so many more animals and udders and babies to add. Hoping to hit the publish update button tonight.
Maybe when I do you could look at it again.. I rely on people to tell me when links are broken or something isn't right. I really haven't updated in two years... maybe a pic here and there.


Anyway A full view would have been better on the video but I am thinking it is some re positioning but could also be kids hitting a nerve. Our one doe always has issues with her one leg bur she has had Quads, Quints, Quads... poor thing the stay on that nerve.
The goat in the video has a lot of hair so it is hard to see but she looks a little sunken but hard to see if she is actually dropped.
The other doe that you had the rear shot of... keep an eye on that udder... looks like it is growing.
Sometime goats will put chest down and butt up trying to move kids around.


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2017)

If you have some clippers you may want to clip their backside


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Thank you! I am actually in the middle of updating- UGH so many more animals and udders and babies to add. Hoping to hit the publish update button tonight.
> Maybe when I do you could look at it again.. I rely on people to tell me when links are broken or something isn't right. I really haven't updated in two years... maybe a pic here and there.
> 
> 
> ...



I haven't updated our website in years
I may not renew
We keep the FB page fairly updated


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 11, 2017)

Multiples can be genetic
But sometimes not
Also I have observed that some traits skip a generation
I had a doe who had quads,triplets, quads, Triplets
Her daughter has kidded twice
Both times twins
One of her daughters just kidded for the first time with quads

Twins are always best
I would take 2 every time


----------



## Southern by choice (May 11, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> Multiples can be genetic
> But sometimes not
> Also I have observed that some traits skip a generation
> I had a doe who had quads,triplets, quads, Triplets
> ...



ME too! I don't mind trips with Nigies- they can do trips so easy.... but two is perfect!


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 11, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Thank you! I am actually in the middle of updating- UGH so many more animals and udders and babies to add. Hoping to hit the publish update button tonight.
> Maybe when I do you could look at it again.. I rely on people to tell me when links are broken or something isn't right. I really haven't updated in two years... maybe a pic here and there.



Sure, just let me know!! I only looked at the ND does and bucks you had but have no problem checking out all the other links. : D


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

Pioneer Chicken said:


> Just looked at your website Southern by choice...you've got some fine-looking animals there!!


   How do we find the website?  



OneFineAcre said:


> If you have some clippers you may want to clip their backside


  I have one, I just dont have a stanchion yet, wonder if I just leash them to the fence if I could clip them.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

MikeLM said:


> I freeze it in ziplock bags, sandwich size. Dam makes enough to share. I mark them day 1, day 2 and day 3.


  I dont know how I missed this, maybe when I was out trying to get pics and post from stupid cell.   How much do I try to get each day and only milk once a day? do I do it say six or so hours after kidding or right away?  does it matter when?


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

Pioneer Chicken said:


> Hmmm... that is interesting!  Maybe @Southern by choice   will have an idea??



She wasnt doing it this morning.  

I see the website info now, bottom of the posts!


----------



## Pioneer Chicken (May 12, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> I dont know how I missed this, maybe when I was out trying to get pics and post from stupid cell.   How much do I try to get each day and only milk once a day? do I do it say six or so hours after kidding or right away?  does it matter when?



I would let the kids nurse first (after you milk her out first to undo any plugs) and then milk her.  I'd say it depends on how much she is producing and just go on a day by day basis.  I don't know for how long the doe will produce colostrum; perhaps someone else will chime in.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

ok thank you!  

I clipped the does and gave them baths.  I have these Andis AGC Super Speed Quiet clippers and the T84 wide blades.

I am so confused, everyone said to use a 10 blade but that looked too short so I went with the T84 and that is way too close too.  ughhh  I guess I need to call the company and see if the reg width blades will fit my trimmers too, and get a normal longer length blade after a lesson in trimming blades 
<bangs head>


----------



## Southern by choice (May 12, 2017)

I would use a 5F against the grain to skirt... use the 10 to shave the udder.  OR use the 5F with grain to skirt but you'll want to brush out any underfluff first.


----------



## Southern by choice (May 12, 2017)

I say that because it looks like it is cold where you are...


----------



## MikeLM (May 12, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> ME too! I don't mind trips with Nigies- they can do trips so easy.... but two is perfect!



I had all triplets this year, usually I get some quads.


----------



## MikeLM (May 12, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> I dont know how I missed this, maybe when I was out trying to get pics and post from stupid cell.   How much do I try to get each day and only milk once a day? do I do it say six or so hours after kidding or right away?  does it matter when?



After the kids drink some (assuming you are dam raising) and she settles a bit. You don't need to take it all just a couple ounces should be enough. Or since this is hers and your first time, maybe just getting some would be good.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

ok I will get "some"


----------



## MikeLM (May 12, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> ok I will get "some"


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 12, 2017)

what size baby clothes fit a nd newborn?  0-3 or 3-6  curious?


----------



## Southern by choice (May 12, 2017)

Never dress your goats unless absolutely necessary.
It can cause respiratory issues...  Too many put goat coats on their kids and end up with pneumonia... they end up getting hot then damp then cold.
If your shelter is adequate and they are in good health there shouldn't be an issue. In larger litters 4-5 kids if kids are really small (under 2 lbs - the 2lb range) you will need to really watch them to make sure they don't get chilled.
Better to do a warming barrel or get these kind of lamps... they are NOT regular heatlamps. Regular heatlamps are extremely dangerous.

https://www.premier1supplies.com/p/prima-heat-lamp


----------



## OneFineAcre (May 12, 2017)

Not likely any kids born now would need heat 
I have lamps like SBC provided  the link to
But I pretty much just only used when kids were born in below freezing temps
But I have had a 5 lb single born in the afternoon and it got
Down to 26 that night and didn't use them
But I've had triplets and used them on a rainy day in the high 30s


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

ok I have been avoiding spending the cash on the premier ones but I will break down and have at least one on hand.  Thanks that is all good to know!


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

oh 250 reds or 175?   I think I have 250 reds and 175 whites  does color of bulbs matter?  and I have skid/pallet "cubes" inside each pen with cut areas like pop doors with a piece of plywood on top I could just hang the premier inside of the skid cube I will assume if I get little kids or if it stays cold like today? Will look for image of the cubes, I am not going out its pouring yet


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

basically each cube is like the middle of this thing I made for them outside, BUT a skid HINGED on the front yet with a hole cut in it only big enough for does to get in and out.  and I have hay inside. My guess is a skid is what 4x4 foot estimate?  and I used the tight skids for in the pens, meaning the boards are close together from shipping shingles more like the ones used as the ramps in this image.


----------



## Southern by choice (May 13, 2017)

I think the lamps would be hanging too low.
They need to clear the dam's back and you don't want kids jumping up and hitting it.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

its about the same height as a barrel?  maybe the pic seems smaller than it is? 4 foot x4 foot


----------



## Southern by choice (May 13, 2017)

But in a barrel the dam can't get in and the kids are confined to not jump.
If this is your weather now you probably won't need it.... looks like spring is fully under way.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 13, 2017)

lol no that was last summer   gotcha!  dang but I do have a barrel I have for backup ER water....


----------



## MikeLM (May 15, 2017)

I don't think you need to worry about heat this time of year. The only time I have ever used heat was an early February Kidding when it was about 0*F.


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 15, 2017)

ok but remember my area is very damp from mountain run off


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 15, 2017)

Kid was outside yesterday morning and sent me this pic, she said she tried for ten mintutes to get a pic of the white goopy stuff coming out of pheebes privates but she kept running away from her lol.  still no kids and ligaments still hard.....


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 19, 2017)

dumbest thing ever = leaving bucks free with does


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 30, 2017)

So May 25th *The Pheebe* our brown doe had Healthy Beautiful twin bucklings!
NO ISSUES!!! Thank the Good Lord!

*A few notes of things I learned that I didn't know SO FAR! *
(remember these are MY notes I _jotted down _and things I noticed and are for sharing my experiences)

First and foremost,* ligaments* are unreliable as I checked her a few hours before she kidded and they were solid as before, they are forever changing in elasticity and drove me insane but its true at kidding they are completely gone, by then I would assume I know she is having a kid.

Also unreliable is the ity bits of *mucus plug *white looking sometimes only a tint of green. I noticed the really clear green stuff is a bit closer to kidding.  

*Udder:* It didnt get a whole lot bigger just before or just after either lol. it filled a bit more meaning the teats had a more frontward tilt, but it wasnt an instant change either. Its really not as big as I thought it would get nor are the teats, but I am new at all this, I guess I had this image in my mind with a hand full of teat milking  perhaps I need bigger goats?  more? 

*BABY CAM* in the Kidding PEN: I am so glad I put it in there! Craigslist, Ebay, local sales on FB, where ever ask a friend...  WORTH the cash! I suggest you research the distance in feet to your kidding area first and if you have good wi fi you can set up a wi fi system which I wish we had, I would have one in every pen all the time!  Anyways,   If it wasn't for the monitor, I wouldn't have heard ONE off sounding scream? nah not really a scream just off a bit enough to make me look at the monitor and see her already laying with her legs straight out pushing and a black blob on the ground behind her....  _<insert run in oversized night Tshirt, grab basket of kidding supplies, sweatshirt, glasses, barely charged cell, no socks so opt for flip flops..... pouring, wet muddy, this cant go well right?>_

NOTE: It wont hurt to have an* extra cell charger* already in your kidding kit! I know, I know, we didn't have any of these things days gone by, but we do now and I would have liked to share this with my kids via video a bit more if I could have!

Sooo... There is Pheebes laying there licking clean a black and white little adorable kid, I am so excited I am shaking and so happy its head is upright and bobbing! (I breed English springer spaniels so birth is nothing that new to me, but this was still extremely exciting!) I kick my flip flops into the corner and search for the nasal aspirater, duh its still in the package I forgot to clean it! Grabbed the rub alcohol bottle, cleaned inside out and dried well too, then cleaned the kid.  Good thing I did because I actually got a big string of goop from the back of the throat, the nose was clear, as the kid sneezed clear just fine.

As far as cleaning the baby, she did it all. It was shivering so I did grab it and take a old bath towel that I had cut in half and rubbed him briskly as mom was still licking him too. Worked great when he was fluffy he stopped being so chilled and started to try to get up right away! I dipped his Cord in the iodine, I forgot the cheap bathroom cups so I had to use the little jar I had aready had in the basket, (the cups I think are well worth getting because we use them to dip teats after milking anyways)

*Sooooo The pic belows says 12:15AM first born..... (next born was 12:30) *
(yes I was still in my night shirt at that time, dont ask lol)




The puppy pads I didn't like to wipe the kids down, they are nice to put under the does behind and mine   or under the kids though!  Papertowels well I think that was just wasteful on so much goop and mom tries to eat them but GREAT for my own hands.  *Hand Sanitizer a BIG bottle* is great! I didnt have time to take a water bucket out to wash my hands or anything. Nor did I think to _*WASH my hands b4 I ran out! I know I am OCD but I may do a bleach teat wash recipe from fiasco, the one drop blue dawn, 2 Tablespoons Clorox to quart water and put in a container I can seal *_and keep out there so I can just open it to wash my own hands for next girl. 

Pheebe was up and walking licking the baby a bit, I was worried as I read to get the kid on the teat withing half hour of kidding, I honestly had no clue of the time.  All I can say is,_* time is going much slower than you probably think it is so try to relax. *_Pheebe cried one or two times not bad at all looking at her butt and laid back down, one loud scream cry here comes the next baby legs out and just like that the baby slipped out easily, still in the sack.

This is where I will add the VIT E before delivery does WORK! I know it does, I have delivered four of my own children and I also have found the benefits of vit e orally and _other_ before deliver, If I had known for my first kids I probably wouldn't have had as many issues and ripped so bad, sorry it is what it is, its amazing stuff! Info on Vit E is above in the Kidding list....

Pheebe just laid there chewing her cud, the kid was born still in its sack and she is chewing cud?  like now? really Pheebe?  she looks at me a baaaaahhhh just a light little lazy baaaahhh, I swear she said, go ahead I know you want to...  I told her, oh no this is your deal, I had my kids, its all on you girl.....  she baaahhh again this time even more pitful. I sat and waited....   
and waited

now remember where I just said time is probably going much slower than you think? well ya, IDK I just dont know,  she baah baah one last time and it threw me over the edge, I grabbed a fresh towel and the aspirator and tore open the sack only at its head, dried its head and cleared it. pulled him halfway up to momma and made her do the rest...... she was happy to do so then  
*12:30 kid 2*




ok I had no clue if she was done or not, but cared for this kid the same and checked to see gender etc. moms privates looked fine, she was up and licking them good and urging the new baby up. All went great!

I was going to wipe moms utters off because she was so wet from birthing but noticed the kids licked her because of the amniotic fluids so I will assume that is a natural thing! cool! Anyways with clean hands I gave each teat a good squirt or two and the kids did pretty good on their own learning to stand under her and drink.... 
This is mom after birth....




Didn't do anything to the hanging out stuffs above image, it was short enough she wasn't pulling on it or anything, And I know we are not to pull on it at all or can bleed the doe.  Anyways, about 2 hours later her placenta came out...  
*NOTE.. <if you have to run to go to the potty> dont let your kids watch them for you unless you explain to them that the placenta may come out and that the white things in it are not worms they are veins  or they will scream to you in the video monitor for their dear lives to come quick its the end of the world.  Or you could stand and watch them in the monitor and Laugh your butt off at them.......  
*


 

pics of them a few hours after they were born....     AND




















THANK YOU FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO HELPED ME AND ALL THE INTERNET FOR THE LOADS OF INFO OUT THERE FOR ALL OF US TO GRAB AND FILL OUR BRAINS WITH!!!


----------



## DwayneNLiz (May 30, 2017)

AHHHH!!!!! SUPER CUTE !!!!

@Turtle Rock Farm   get your butt over here!!!!


----------



## Turtle Rock Farm (May 30, 2017)

SO cute, sunshine!!!  

Congratulations on the healthy babies!


----------



## Sally Sunshine (May 30, 2017)

I promise to come over to byc when I am ready, pheebe is any time now, and its chaos here!!!!  Miss you all!!!


----------



## Turtle Rock Farm (May 30, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> I promise to come over to byc when I am ready, pheebe is any time now, and its chaos here!!!!  Miss you all!!!


Tell Chaos to go back to his own corner of PA.


----------



## norseofcourse (May 30, 2017)

Congrats on the kids, glad you were there for the kidding and all went well!


----------



## DwayneNLiz (May 31, 2017)

Sally Sunshine said:


> I promise to come over to byc when I am ready, pheebe is any time now, and its chaos here!!!!  Miss you all!!!


  we understand  happy to see this update though!!


----------



## Wehner Homestead (Apr 2, 2018)

@horseymama2


----------

