# Wire pen inside barn for sheep - will this work?



## Stephine (May 28, 2021)

I am FINALLY getting sheep to help with mowing this year. 2 weathers, 1 ewe, weaned babydoll lambs. We are on a wildlife corridor (our creek at the bottom of our little farm; fenced off with 8’ deer fencing) and have cougars, bobcats, coyotes walking through, plus likely some resident foxes. Sheep need to be locked up at night. I am trying to figure out a good solution while minimizing extra expenses, and delays, since wood is so hard to come by these days. We have a barn which is half full of stickered wood. The wood is definitely dry now so we could remove the stickers and make a single compact pile and have enough - hopefully - to build a wire pen in the corner for the sheep. Sooo - how much room should I give them? Could I just put t-posts in the ground and attach hog panels? What is a good way to make a door/gate? I will close the opening in the wall to the horse stall with hardware cloth - but what is a good way to make the sliding barn doors secure? 
Is there a sliding barn door lock? I will probably also need to install some guides on the bottom? 
Would rubber mats be good for the floor? 
Finally - It’s a pretty big barn, not air tight by any means, but the only window (to the always open horse stall) is only about 3’x4’ - is that enough ventilation for overnight - considering that it’s an open pen in a big space? 
Hoping we can make this work to avoid building a whole new sheep pen, at least for now, while we are just trying out how this will all work...


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## misfitmorgan (May 28, 2021)

Assuming they are recently weaned lambs, hog panel holes are likely to big for babydoll lambs. You should be able to either do hog panels lined on the sheep side with 2x4 welded wire or just use 2x4 welded wire and forget the hog panels. Yes you will need/can use t-posts to hold the panels or wire. If you use hog panel covered in 2x4 wire, just cut the panel and wire it back together so it has a hinge...easy fast gate. With all the predators around a bigger breed probly would have been better but can't deny babydolls are so stinking cute. Depending how much land you are trying to mow you probly will need more sheep at some point. 

For size....babydolls are little, conventional lamb space for larger size sheep is 4 sqft per lamb when they are young, 6sqft per lamb when they are weaned, 8 sqft for adults, and 12sqft for ewes with lambs. This is all non-confinement sizes and as mentioned full size sheep, so could probly safely go a bit smaller for babydolls, if you just need something for them for a few months a 12sqft pen inside should be fine but bigger will buy you more time until you need to re-do the inside pen. Do not forget they will need access to water, hay and grain if you plan to grain them...even with pasture offering a small amount of hay is a good idea esp if they did not come from pasture. If they came from confinement you will need to feed hay and limit their  pasture time for a couple weeks so they dont bloat. 

When we had a barn with sliding doors we just installed really big hook and eye latches, the door on the door and the eye on the beam next to the door, one on each side of the sliding door so you latch both and the door doesnt slide either way. Depending on the side of the door, you will need a ground guide to stop the door from swinging outwards and leaving a gap near the ground.

Dirt or concrete floors with some bedding is fine, you dont need mats. Your air flow should be fine as long as it stays cool in the summer and they are only being locked in at night. 

A bit of advice from me, make sure you give or the lambs got CDT shots..they need 2 and give them Corid or some other coccidiosis treatment as soon as you get them home. Coccidia bloom when lambs are weaned or stressed, a new home is stress.


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## farmerjan (May 28, 2021)

Yes, you could use T-posts with hog (or cattle) panels if they are the babydoll sheep.  You might have to use an extra T-post or 2 if they rub or push on them.  
Yes there is a sliding barn door lock .  It is used to hold the door tight on each side where it closes against the door frame of the building.  And many people use a drop in "pin"  on one or both doors where they meet to keep them from moving in and out.  I cannot think of the proper name.  I will have to ask my son;  but if you are anywhere near a farm supply, go in and ask them and if they don't know, then if there is anyplace that builds the metal barns or buildings, go in and ask them.  We have this lock and it keeps the sliding doors tight against the building .... used to keep wind from getting behind the doors and lifting them off the tracks or otherwise having the wind damage them by them slamming back and forth against the building. 

Just did a little searching.... what we use is called a "Zinc Gate Latch"  made by National Hardware and sold at Lowe's and I am sure other places.  Read the description... It is adjustable so that if you do not get the hole in the exact place, the part that goes down into the hole to tighten can be extended or shortened... and it allows for different amounts of tension for the person closing it.  You could look it up on line


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## misfitmorgan (May 30, 2021)

farmerjan said:


> Yes, you could use T-posts with hog (or cattle) panels if they are the babydoll sheep.  You might have to use an extra T-post or 2 if they rub or push on them.
> Yes there is a sliding barn door lock .  It is used to hold the door tight on each side where it closes against the door frame of the building.  And many people use a drop in "pin"  on one or both doors where they meet to keep them from moving in and out.  I cannot think of the proper name.  I will have to ask my son;  but if you are anywhere near a farm supply, go in and ask them and if they don't know, then if there is anyplace that builds the metal barns or buildings, go in and ask them.  We have this lock and it keeps the sliding doors tight against the building .... used to keep wind from getting behind the doors and lifting them off the tracks or otherwise having the wind damage them by them slamming back and forth against the building.
> 
> Just did a little searching.... what we use is called a "Zinc Gate Latch"  made by National Hardware and sold at Lowe's and I am sure other places.  Read the description... It is adjustable so that if you do not get the hole in the exact place, the part that goes down into the hole to tighten can be extended or shortened... and it allows for different amounts of tension for the person closing it.  You could look it up on line


I think thats a pretty similar idea to the latches we had....but with adjustment lol.
We just used big daddies of these, like 7" long and thicker.


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## secuono (May 30, 2021)

Real hog panels, the short ones, they will jump out.
Cattle panels will work, tposts at each end of panel. 
Freshly weaned, 8+ weeks, they may pop out of, if they're small. You'd have to test and find out.
Carabiners can be used to attach a cut panel to another panel to make a gate.


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## Stephine (May 30, 2021)

Perfect, this is all so helpful! 

@secuono The lambs will be 4 months old, so hopefully a little bigger. How high should the panels or any fencing be? I didn’t really imagine them “hopping out”! There are so many different types of panels, I am not sure what is a “real” one and what isn’t. 

Thanks for all the door latch ideas! Our barn doors have a metal frame and corrugated steel panels - I guess I can just use bolts instead of screws to make this work. @farmerjan  - I am not certain I looked at the right latch. Does the one you are talking about include a post/pin that goes into the ground? I guess that would keep the bottom from swinging out? And that goes in the middle? Do you use one for each side? I’ll have to have another look at where the latch parts go... Maybe I can google some more pictures. 
Anyway, thanks a heap!!


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## secuono (May 30, 2021)

Stephine said:


> Perfect, this is all so helpful!
> 
> @secuono The lambs will be 4 months old, so hopefully a little bigger. How high should the panels or any fencing be? I didn’t really imagine them “hopping out”! There are so many different types of panels, I am not sure what is a “real” one and what isn’t.
> 
> ...



They should be fine at 4mo. These are all 10-11 weeks old. Cattle panel on the left.


This is what I call a hog panel, 34" tall. 100% my lambs would jump this. My adults would jump it if spooked.
Lambs and yearlings are most athletic & likely to leap out, they tend to stay grounded at 2+ years old. 


I have a row of fencing that is 36", but it's cross fencing, so no huge problem if they did manage to get out. I'd do at least 4ft for perimeter fencing.


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## misfitmorgan (May 30, 2021)

secuono said:


> They should be fine at 4mo. These are all 10-11 weeks old. Cattle panel on the left.
> View attachment 85544
> 
> This is what I call a hog panel, 34" tall. 100% my lambs would jump this. My adults would jump it if spooked.
> ...



Oh your right we normally get combo panels or cattle panels....we just call all panels hog panels which I guess isnt good lol


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## Stephine (May 30, 2021)

Wow! I am impressed!! Our Arabian *horse* is contained by a 4’ fence! 
Ok, 52” panels it is then - I like the feedlot ones @misfitmorgan. 
How much space should I give them for overnight @secuono? It does get hot in the summer so I want them to have a little extra room to spread out...



secuono said:


> They should be fine at 4mo. These are all 10-11 weeks old. Cattle panel on the left.
> View attachment 85544
> 
> This is what I call a hog panel, 34" tall. 100% my lambs would jump this. My adults would jump it if spooked.
> ...





misfitmorgan said:


> Oh your right we normally get combo panels or cattle panels....we just call all panels hog panels which I guess isnt good lol
> View attachment 85554View attachment 85555


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## misfitmorgan (May 30, 2021)

They should work out well for you I think. We are currently using some of ours the divide our sheep shed in half with a creep feeder and lambs on one side....so far no escapees. Sheep and goats have springs for legs...like how deer can jump anything less then 10' our goats have cleared 5' pipefences on the regular. Our drylot fence is only 48" tall and even in winter with up to a foot of packed snow they do not usually go over the fence...once in awhile the biggest sheep will but truthfully they get over it if they wanted. Even in dry lot with grass all around the fence they stay in, there is nothing here to spook them though as our dogs and poultry alert to everything.


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## farmerjan (May 30, 2021)

Normal cattle panels are 47-50 inches tall all according to where you get them.  The spacing is the same from top to bottom.  The combination panels have smaller spacing at the bottom and the size openings graduates as it goes up.  Most places charge the same for either the cattle panels or the combination panels.  The combination panels look like the hog panels type of spacing.  I would not go the 52" high panel for the babydoll sheep;  in the barn they are not going to have a huge amount of space to go running to try to jump over and they are only going to be in there at night.  All we use for our calves and the sheep we have are the standard 48 inch combination panels.  Our White Texas Dall sheep are expert jumpers and are a more feral breed and unless they are chased or pushed by something, do not go over the standard panel.  We pay in the 20-25 range for the combo panels at TSC or our local feed co-op.


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## secuono (May 30, 2021)

Stephine said:


> Wow! I am impressed!! Our Arabian *horse* is contained by a 4’ fence!
> Ok, 52” panels it is then - I like the feedlot ones @misfitmorgan.
> How much space should I give them for overnight @secuono? It does get hot in the summer so I want them to have a little extra room to spread out...


Four 16ft panels should be enough until you befriend them. I've used 3 in a triangle. They'll muddy up the ground quickly, though.


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## Stephine (May 30, 2021)

secuono said:


> Four 16ft panels should be enough until you befriend them. I've used 3 in a triangle. They'll muddy up the ground quickly, though.


Thanks! They’ll go in a corner so I’ll need less building material... 
Wait - do you mean 256 sqf for the three of them? According to @misfitmorgan that area could hold 32 full size sheep!? I think I need to find some middle ground here - I don’t have *that* much space in the barn...
If you think they’ll muddy up the ground I’ll put down rubber mats. We have those in the horse stalls...


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## farmerjan (May 30, 2021)

If they are going to go in a corner, then 2 panels should suffice.  Use one to cut a gate in and use the cut piece for the gate.... You can't buy 1/2 panel... and 16x16 is not all that big for 3 sheep to have space to move around, eat, lay down and not be soo crowded as to make the pen messy.  Actually, if you are only going to have them in there at night, then 8x8 or 10x10 like a horse stall size would be fine.  But you will be cleaning it out more often.


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## secuono (May 30, 2021)

Ohh, is it inside a building?
Thought it was like a little outdoor yard or something.


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## Stephine (May 30, 2021)

secuono said:


> Ohh, is it inside a building?
> Thought it was like a little outdoor yard or something.


Ha! Yes, it’s inside the barn... I am trying to put a night time shelter together for them (we have cougars) that will be easy to set up and not break the bank. Wood is hard to come by and expensive now, and I thought since we have some space in the barn, I could set up a wire stall for them there and make that part of the barn predator proof - just a matter of securing the sliding barn doors and adding some hardware cloth over the window to the horse stall and up at the rafters... cougars will not try to get in if they can’t see them from afar, so it doesn’t have to be Fort Knox.


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## secuono (May 31, 2021)

Stephine said:


> Ha! Yes, it’s inside the barn... I am trying to put a night time shelter together for them (we have cougars) that will be easy to set up and not break the bank. Wood is hard to come by and expensive now, and I thought since we have some space in the barn, I could set up a wire stall for them there and make that part of the barn predator proof - just a matter of securing the sliding barn doors and adding some hardware cloth over the window to the horse stall and up at the rafters... cougars will not try to get in if they can’t see them from afar, so it doesn’t have to be Fort Knox.



I cut goat panels, 4×4in holes, to fit in my barn to be dividing walls that I could put up when rotating sheep. I used those instead of cattle panels because of lambs being able to pop through them. 
More carabiners, eyehole screws and light chains to attach them inside. 
I wanted to buy real sheep tube panels, but I don't have thousands to spend on them. 
Point is, it's "ugly", but it works. 

Cattle panels are cheap(maybe not now because of covid) vs the goat panels. Get a couple extras in case you decide that it's not enough space later on. 

Is it a totally open barn inside?
Could attach pallets to the outside of the panels to keep them upright and test the size before committing and sinking any posts or adding hardware to the structure.


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## misfitmorgan (May 31, 2021)

For inside shelter just plan for 8sqft each and you should be fine. So min 12x12 space...that will work as they grow. Atm our 8 weaned lambs have a 6'x20' shelter with a creep feeder and our herd of 13 adults sheep and 2 calves share the other 6'x20' half of the shelter. Everyone fits in fine when they want to but honestly in summer they dont spend much time inside as we have trees for shade and they prefer being outside unless it is raining then the sheep want inside but the calves dont care. Normally the herd shares the entire 12'x20' shelter and will again when the lambs go to the auction in a few weeks. Bascially, you should be good with a 12x12 or anything bigger but may need to clean it a bit more often. Since it is panels and t-posts you can always change it in the future.


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## Stephine (May 31, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> For inside shelter just plan for 8sqft each and you should be fine. So min 12x12 space...that will work as they grow. Atm our 8 weaned lambs have a 6'x20' shelter with a creep feeder and our herd of 13 adults sheep and 2 calves share the other 6'x20' half of the shelter. Everyone fits in fine when they want to but honestly in summer they dont spend much time inside as we have trees for shade and they prefer being outside unless it is raining then the sheep want inside but the calves dont care. Normally the herd shares the entire 12'x20' shelter and will again when the lambs go to the auction in a few weeks. Bascially, you should be good with a 12x12 or anything bigger but may need to clean it a bit more often. Since it is panels and t-posts you can always change it in the future.



Thanks! 

Maybe it’s the math that’s hanging us up here: 
3x8sqf is 24sqf - an area of 6’x4’ for example or 3’x8’. 
An area 12’x12’ is 144 sqf. At 8sqf per sheep that would be enough for 18 sheep!?? 

I think what I can reasonably give them is an area of about 8’x12’ , 96sqf, and it sounds like that should work fine. Since we are in Sonoma, CA, we never need to worry about cold and not that often about rain either (unfortunately). It’s really just to keep them safe from cougars, coyotes,... I don’t mind cleaning up a bit more... What bedding is best?


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 1, 2021)

Yeah i dont know what math I was doing there lol.

We bed with straw during winter and lambing season, the rest of the year they get bare dirt. We have tried year round straw but ours seem to eat it for some reason even with free choice hay. Also tried wood chips but they dont seem to last long for us before they are just all piled around the edges of the shed and bare dirt in the middle again. We do get a lot of rain though which means they walk the chips into the dirt so you may find woodchips work well for you being you are more dry. I know some other use packing stone then straw on top as well. In our barn with the concrete floor we use straw for our pigs in the cold months.

You just have to experiment and see what works for you.


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## Stephine (Jun 1, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> Yeah i dont know what math I was doing there lol.
> 
> We bed with straw during winter and lambing season, the rest of the year they get bare dirt. We have tried year round straw but ours seem to eat it for some reason even with free choice hay. Also tried wood chips but they dont seem to last long for us before they are just all piled around the edges of the shed and bare dirt in the middle again. We do get a lot of rain though which means they walk the chips into the dirt so you may find woodchips work well for you being you are more dry. I know some other use packing stone then straw on top as well. In our barn with the concrete floor we use straw for our pigs in the cold months.
> 
> You just have to experiment and see what works for you.


That’s interesting - is the bare dirt working for you? Will it start to smell from the pee? We have a dirt floor and don’t need anything for warmth for wool sheep, that’s for sure, so bedding here would just be for cushion and to keep things sanitary. Pee is a new one for me.... our horse goes out in the paddock to pee and keeps her stall nice and clean. But she of course doesn’t have to be locked up inside. And chickens don’t pee... Ok our bunny, but that was on a much smaller scale... 😂


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 1, 2021)

No bad smell. Our sheep shed is a carport that someone built a wooden frame around so it has side walls and a roof but the end walls are not full walls, they only have wood down to the height of the sidewalls so basically just covering the peak part. In winter we close one end wall with 2 sheets of galvanized roofing tin to stop the wind whipping thru but even in winter with straw we dont have problems with smell. It stays dry inside even in winter, in the spring we scrap/shovel any build up out down to bare dirt again. As long as you have air flow you should be fine, if it isnt working for you try hay or wood chips down the road. Any setup you have can always be changed later if it isnt working for you, which is nice.

Don't over think it to much. shelter, hay, loose minerals, and occasional grain if you are breeding....thats it. You can make a fast hay feeder out of the cut off part of the cow panel if you need one just for sheep. We have done it many times and it works out great. Tons of hay feeder ideas on google just look for DIY sheep hay feeder if you need ideas.


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## farmerjan (Jun 2, 2021)

If you only have the three and you are only looking at nightime lock up, get 1 panel, bend it in half, and make an 8x8 pen in the corner.  put some shavings down and some straw on top... then you can take and shovel out the wet straw and shavings that will collect any pee....  It will keep them cleaner to have the straw on top... or if you are wanting to shear them for the wool, then just use straw a little deeper.  But the shavings underneath will collect the moisture better than the straw, that will filter the pee through it more.  Make sure the doors and all are predator proof so no cougars can get in.  And SHOOT any that are harassing the livestock.  Don't know CA laws... you can practice SSS if necessary to protect your livestock and no one the wiser.


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## Baymule (Jun 3, 2021)

I deep litter my sheep with waste hay. We park a round bale with cow panel sections on 3 sides and a hog panel section  on one side because our ram’s head won’t fit through a cow panel hole. We haven’t cleaned it out yet, since we had 100 year record breaking cold last winter, I put down lots of hay. It’s rained nearly ever since, LOL. We spread it in the garden or on the pastures.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 3, 2021)

I would say @farmerjan and @Baymule methods are probly closer to ones you will prefer as they are both in warmer climates, I live in michigan and the weather is much different here then hot//warm places so we do things different.


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## Cotton*wood (Aug 18, 2021)

We use deep litter too--old garden mulch hay, and yes, they nibble on some of it.  We basically only had them in there during the deep freeze last winter, and a few other times.  But I would just put a little more on top whenever I could see too many turds.  It soaked the pee right up.  It's always been very pleasant to sit on and hang out with the sheep.  I only cleaned it out recently when it seemed like it was getting piled too high.

Our stall barriers are made with an old wrought iron fence (which came with the barn), and I put cardboard and narrow pieces of plywood along the bottom to keep the lambs from popping through when they were little.   It's just a corner of our barn.  Here is it with our three new sheep waiting to be integrated with the rest of the flock.


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## Stephine (Sep 15, 2021)

I finally finished knocking down all the tall grass in their summer pasture (some of the needle grass in there, with the awns still on, so I broke it up with the back of a wide rake, which knocks the seed heads off). Late this morning I had their waterer, feeder etc set up and we took them up there. It was hilarious! Our neighbor came and helped - she walked backwards with a tub of hay in front of them. I had the tamest one on a leash (new for him and he bucked a few times right out the gate but did pretty well after that). I had the bucket with the pellets and called to them over and over and gave out small handfuls on the way. With one on leash, the two others really didn’t want to take off on their own - plus one of the loose ones is very very food motivated. We hit a rough spot when we came to a place where my husband had accidentally turned on the wrong hose for a while and greens had sprouted. But they quickly decided that pellets were more interesting and followed me again. The dog offered to help bit he was so excited I had to ask him to stay back and watch…. 
I wish someone had filmed us! Anyway, we got them to their pasture without major incident and after finishing their breakfast they raced around it for a while, some full stretched gallops some binkies and sproings. So cute to watch. Then they got to meet the Arabian (their pasture neighbor) and spent at least an hour with that meet and greet. Both horse and sheep were curious and friendly. They have been hanging out near each other all afternoon. Horse seems glad to finally have some company again (her very old (40yrs) mustang buddy died a couple of years ago. Now for the return trip to the barn in about an hour…. hopefully it‘ll be easy because they know their stall….?


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## Stephine (Sep 15, 2021)




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## Stephine (Sep 15, 2021)

Going back was a piece of cake! I had three helpers and the dog (who was overly excited and had to be reminded to cool it the whole time  - he really just wants to give them a good sniff and clean up….) which was complete overkill. Apparently they have thoroughly learned that sunset means dinner in their stall, and they all came along readily, with just a few stops to hand feed some pellets. It is so helpful that there are only three AND I have one on leash. When they get a little scared and want to bolt, one is staying with me and so the two others come back immediately after the initial hop. My Pip is walking on leash like a champ on his second try today. I am certain the pellet bucket helps a ton, but still. I am using a large dog collar and leash. Seemed simplest. Once they caught sight of the barn they were actually going ahead of me. No problem getting them in their stall, that’s where they wanted to go. So I am breathing a big sigh of relief. Pretty confident I will be able to do this alone within a day or two. Yay!


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