# how do you get yer ewes bred if you don't have your own ram??



## patandchickens (Mar 24, 2010)

OK, so I have sort of arrived at wanting to get 2 ewes for milking (though I may have to get ewe lambs and wait for them to grow up, am still phoning 'round).

But I do NOT NOT NOT want to keep a ram, for a variety of reasons on which I am pretty inflexible at this point.

Surely people with just a few sheep MUST have ways of arranging for them to get bred without actually owning a ram?

Options that have been suggested or considered include:

--rent a ram for a few wks, or send my ewes to someone's ram for a few weeks. Problem: not sure anyone around here will do that. (I don't know for sure, but dairy-sheep lady I spoke with this afternoon did not sound especially optimistic).

--buy a ram in Nov., run it with ewes for a month, then sell it or convert into freezer mutton. Problems: health risks, upfront cost, lack of vehicle/trailer in which to transport full-grown breeding ram.

--AI. Problem: am under impression it works poorly with sheep and is pretty expensive as cannot be done the same way as with cattle or horses.

--just give up on whole sheep idea :/

What do YOU do?

Thanks for any info/suggestions,

Pat


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## lupinfarm (Mar 24, 2010)

Most small farm owners here rent-a-ram or rent-a-buck with goats. Call around, most breeders are fairly flexible on this you just need to do some blood testing usually. The most common thing to do is driveway breeding here. 

We're hesitant to buy a buck for the goats, so we're talking to the lady we're buying our two new doelings from in May about bringing them back at a year for breeding to one of her other bucks.

Ask around, just because the woman you spoke to wasn't into the idea doesn't mean others won't be. In my experience its a lot easier to find all these services for goats despite the relatively small population of goats in Ontario (its getting bigger every day it seems though lol). You may have to look outside your area for a ram or breeding services. For instance, our area is exploding with sheep, we have great sheep land and its very easy to find a ram to breed to. 

Have you thought about the fact that sheep graze on the same grasses as horses? I know you probably won't put them together but one thing that is suggested around here is if you have horses, buying goats instead of sheep, because the goats for the most part will eat the stuff the horses don't like.


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## Beekissed (Mar 24, 2010)

You find a breeder that has a healthy flock and you borrow or pay stud fees.  I will eventually buy a ram this year, but until then have had the offer of the loan of two different rams from two breeders.  No cost.  One is the breeder from whence I bought my ewes, so I'm not too worried about disease from his flock.  

I may take one up on the offer until I find the ram lamb I want.  

I don't know why you don't want your own ram, they don't taint the milk like bucks do....but, if you really don't want to keep one around, most folks buy a ram lamb and do the deed.  Then sell or butcher.


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## miss_thenorth (Mar 25, 2010)

What I would do, if I can't find a ram next time around is -a)while driving around, when ever I see a sheep farm, stop in and ask about renting a ram, or- b) put an add in kijij, looking for one.  Infact, I have seen ads in kijiji  of people offering stud services.  i have no desire to keep a ram either, but worst case scenario for us is to buy one, use him and then butcher him.  (Although I have never had mutton, I have had lamb before--mutton is supposed to be stronger flavoured.)   Regardless, I'm not sweating it.

You could also ask around at your feed store of names of other sheep farmers, and talk to them--(not just the one lady who didn't seem all that encouraging. )


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## jhm47 (Mar 25, 2010)

My children used to show Columbia sheep in 4-H.  I would have never allowed anyone to "borrow" one of our rams.  There are several diseases that can be passed around, and when you get a clean flock, be very careful to keep it clean.  Foot rot, soremouth, and several other contagious diseases are readily passed from one to another.  

As to butchering a ram mature enough to breed ewes---good luck!  We tried it once, and wound up feeding the resulting meat to our dog.  Tough, and strong tasting stuff.  There is a reason that cull rams only bring a few cents a pound.


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## miss_thenorth (Mar 25, 2010)

Well, if we got a ram I would have no problem feeding it to my dogs either, since I make my own dog food.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 25, 2010)

You can always buy a ram lamb and use him to breed, then send him to freezer camp.


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## lupinfarm (Mar 25, 2010)

Pat, I know of a sheep farm here that transports their full grown meat ewes in the back of a ford focus sedan (the older ones)  We took a full grown Newfoundland Dog (an intact male!) in the back of our Ford Focus Station wagon across Ontario. I tihnk you could make it work.


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## Beekissed (Mar 25, 2010)

Ram lambs are called lambs because they are still considered lambs up until one year of age.  For most breeds of sheep, they are sexually mature around 6-7 mo. of age, which makes them still pretty tender fare if you wish to butcher or sell for market.  

There are some cultures that prefer young rams and like the stronger flavor of their meat.   Some folks don't even bother banding their ram lambs anymore before selling to market as their meat doesn't tend to start getting strong until later on.


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## jen6265 (Apr 9, 2010)

I would be very careful bringing a ram in from a farm that rents or leases a ram, we don't do it.  Its risky for our flock and yours, many possible problems with disease, liability etc.  If I were in your shoes and you aren't looking for a high quality registered ram, I would find a local breeder and arrange to purchase an unregistered ram, use him, and then send him to auction.  I usually get anywhere from 50 - 75 at my local auction for the rams.

We did AI this year, it is a little pricey, requires some coordination, and we had a 66% success rate (we did 3 ewes).  Its a surgical procedure, sheep cant be AI'd with a turkey baster.

Good luck!
Jen


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## patandchickens (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks guys! Update: I am trying to purchase an unregistered shetland ram lamb (and a shetland ewe to go with him), although have not heard back from the breeder for a bit of a while but maybe he's just busy with lambing.

So hopefully that will work out, and the ram lamb will not turn out too 'rammy', and hopefully that will take care of my problems 

Thanks,

Pat


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## miss_thenorth (Apr 9, 2010)

Thaks alot Pat!   Now i am considering keeping my ram lamb.  But now I have questions for you...  How do you plan on keeping the ram--separate quarters? Or do you plan on running him in with the ewes all the time?  I know technically they can be together for the whole time they are pregnant, but what about during the time you are milking?


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## patandchickens (Apr 9, 2010)

I thought that most sheep folks don't like to breed a ram back to his mama? But I guess if you just want milk and lambchops maybe it doesn't matter so much.

Honestly I have not really settled on a plan for housing. I was kind of figuring on seeing what happens. I *can* pen him separately (2 different possible areas) if need be, and indeed I assume I will HAVE to do that for a while next fall because I do not want the ewe-lambs bred til Nov or so. 

I have NO CLUE about keeping the ram with the ewes when milking. No clue at all. Whatsoever. I am as clueless about this sheep thing as a person who has read multiple books can possibly be. Which is REALLY clueless. But I guess something will work out. I can always sell or eat the ram, if all else fails 

Pat, Queen of the Clueless in this particular case


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## jen6265 (Apr 9, 2010)

Two things  
When we started out with 4 ewes and a ram, they all lived in the same barn and were fine.  This particular ram didn't have any problems with the lambs.  The ram we used this year was in with the ewes right up to lambing.  We let out the first lamb while he was still in with the ewes, and at the first exposure to the lamb, he tried to attack it.  I think he thought it was an invader.  We promptly removed him from the pen and put him in with the other rams.  He is pretty gentle.  My point is you never know.  Safest thing is to separate the ram from the lambs.  If you are leaving him with the lambs, keep a close eye on them.

If you are going to separate him, he will have to have a companion or he will do anything to get at the ewe pen.  He will wreck fencing, barn, himself in the effort to get with others.  If he is in the same barn but another pen, he will get out and get in with the ewes.  For some reason if he has a companion he won't try to get out. 

This is based on our experiences and those of other shepherds we know.  You may get lucky and have an unusual ram, but in general, expect what I described above.

Another thing, electronet fencing is not safe with rams if they have horns.

Hate to be cassandra here, but just want to share our experience.  Check with the guy you are getting the lambs from, see what he says.

Oh yeah, one other thing, we transport our shetlands in dog crates, and usually the kind for labs.  I've put them in the back of my van with a tarp underneath, back vents open, works great!

good luck!
Jen


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## patandchickens (Apr 9, 2010)

jen6265 said:
			
		

> Safest thing is to separate the ram from the lambs.  If you are leaving him with the lambs, keep a close eye on them. If you are going to separate him, he will have to have a companion or he will do anything to get at the ewe pen.  He will wreck fencing, barn, himself in the effort to get with others.  If he is in the same barn but another pen, he will get out and get in with the ewes.  For some reason if he has a companion he won't try to get out.


Yup, my intention is to pick up "something" else, sometime before Fall, to keep the ram lamb company. Will figure this out as time passes 



> Another thing, electronet fencing is not safe with rams if they have horns.


That is good to know. This ram-lamb is described as having natural scurs, but I do not as yet know what size we are talkin' here.



> Hate to be cassandra here, but just want to share our experience.


No no no, by ALL MEANS tell me things like this, it's exactly what I need to hear!!! 



> Oh yeah, one other thing, we transport our shetlands in dog crates, and usually the kind for labs.  I've put them in the back of my van with a tarp underneath, back vents open, works great!


Would a wire dog crate be ok, do you think? (like the ones often used for housebreaking, as opposed to the mostly-plastic airline-style ones)

I am hoping so, as I have 2 of them but 0 of the airline-style ones; but if this is not the case, tell me NOW so I can try to scare up one or two of the right kind! 

Thanks,

Pat


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## jen6265 (Apr 9, 2010)

Ha!  You are so funny!  The wire crate is what we use, more ventilation.  Plastic ones work also.  

Glad I can help.  Can't wait to hear how things progress for you!  
Jen


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## patandchickens (Apr 9, 2010)

I just had a thought. (Usually a dangerous thing, LOL). 

As far as a companion for the ram, any chance that when it's the time of year that the dairybred ewelambs are likely to start coming into season, I could separate them thusly: dairy ewes in one place, shetlands (ram-lamb and 2 yr old ewe) in another place. And just let him breed the shetland ewe whenever she comes into season, and keep them together til I want to reintroduce both to the dairybred ones to get *them* bred. 

I realize this would resulting probably in midwinter shetland lambs (but I do have a barn, and a heatlamp if necessary, and could put sweaters on the lambies or whatever) and then springtime dairybred lambs, but I think that is ok with me if it would be ok with the sheep?

That way I would not need an extra companion for the ram.

Would this work, or am I nuts? (Feel free to tell me I'm nuts )

Thanks,

Pat


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## lupinfarm (Apr 9, 2010)

*Pat the wire crates would be fine!* Thats what I used to bring home my goaties, except I neglected to put down a tarp LOL and Cissy laid down a huge pee, of course they were also on the back seat of the truck but miraculously the pee missed the seat entirely!


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## Hillsvale (Feb 22, 2011)

good posting,

I have two bred katahdins now and have the opportunity to get a 12 month old katahdin ram.... I am not sure whether I can keep them seperate or whether there would be a need to, my barn is only 12x16 seperated into two pens 6x12 with the ability to make them into 4 pens .... learning learning, I want to breed my katahdins pure...

So could it be feasible to just seperate the ram for the few days the ewes are in heat or is that just not a fool proof methed?

ETA: Pat I put the bred ewes in the back of my Envoy with no cage (with tarp)... they were fine! lol... I didn't want to put them under stress in the freezing cold in a fairly open trailer.

My friends transported their goats in the back of little matrix's


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## Aped (Feb 23, 2011)

I just went through this whole thought process around fall of last year. I ended up finding some people on craigslist who raised katahdins and would take my katahdin ewe and put it with one of their yearling rams. They also had a 2 year old ram and once I saw that thing I knew I could never have a ram where I am now. It was the size of my car and it looked like a lion. I can't imagine what kind of damage that thing would do. 

Anyway, before taking my ewe they came to my house and looked at where I kept her and looked her over to see if she was healthy and I had to vaccinate and worm her a couple days before they took her. The whole process worked out pretty well and they are willing to take my lambs in exchange for another round of breeding this fall. 

As for the crates, I also use them and just wrap the middle with a tarp leaving the front and back open. The shepherds that bred my ewe actually built some sort of crate into the back of their truck. It's made out of wooden boards, it is removable and very useful. They also have a decal on the back of it that says 'ewe-haul' which I found pretty funny.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 24, 2011)

Aped said:
			
		

> The whole process worked out pretty well and they are willing to take my lambs in exchange for another round of breeding this fall.


I have a question if you don't mind.     You said they're willing to take your lambs in exchange for breeding your ewe again?  Do you mean you're going to give them any lamb(s) your ewe has?  Or are they buying them from you?   If they're taking them to keep them, all they're going to do is then breed your ewe for you?   If that's the case, they're getting a WAY better deal.


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## Aped (Feb 25, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Aped said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


well you wouldn't say that if you knew that they basically charged me the cost of a full-grown sheep just for breeding! Yeah they were way overpriced but it was close and convenient. I actually posted on a different forum about the cost and some people said it was expensive while other people said I should be paying that much for the privilege to use another person's ram and that they were purebred, which would mean nothing if I had a different breed than they had. 

They initially tried to charge me $200 for a 6 week visit with their ram, way too much. But then I said I would buy one of their pregnant ewes as well and it worked out to $175 for the pregnant ewe and $125 for the ram service for my other ewe. Still a bit expensive but then again I see Nigerian Dwarf stud service around $75 to $100 and sheep people are much less willing to stud out their ram so I just have to deal with the $125. 

Aggie I would have gone with you but the distance just wasn't good for me. Also I initially wanted purebred katahdins in case I kept some but I am definitely not keeping any. 

I haven't worked out details for the lamb/stud service trade but I figure one lamb per stud service and the younger they can take them from me, the better because I have no space to raise so many lambs and goat kids. I'm really only in it for the milk.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 25, 2011)

I understand now...if they were charging that much it does make sense to trade a lamb.   I definitely understand wanting a purebred ram too, because it makes your lambs more marketable.  I'm going to be in the market for a good ram this year. It's probably a good thing you didn't go with my ram, because he didn't manage to get the job done on one of my ewes. Not sure if my ewe was just too tall or not, but I don't think that was it.  I would have felt terrible.


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## Aped (Feb 26, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I understand now...if they were charging that much it does make sense to trade a lamb.   I definitely understand wanting a purebred ram too, because it makes your lambs more marketable.  I'm going to be in the market for a good ram this year. It's probably a good thing you didn't go with my ram, because he didn't manage to get the job done on one of my ewes. Not sure if my ewe was just too tall or not, but I don't think that was it.  I would have felt terrible.


Oh well that's good to hear for me I guess haha But not so good on your end. I hope you get some babies somehow. If you are looking for a katahdin ram I don't know if I will have an extra to sell this year but then the breeders I work with deal only with katahdins and I am sure they will have plenty of new rams for sale this year. They are in Elkton, MD.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 27, 2011)

I'm in the market for a ram, but I'm looking for a Romney or Southdown ram.  Thanks though!


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