# Back with Questions about Dotti and kids



## Louannx (Dec 10, 2018)

So, Dotti FF in mid November, some of you are aware of the long story. I pulled Coco a brown doeling and Brawn a white buckling. They will be a month in two days. By almost two weeks old, I realized Coco was knocking Brawn off the teat. So for the last couple of weeks, I go out and put one on each teat for 15-20 minutes 3 times a day to make sure Brawn gets his share. 

I have cameras setup, so I see everything. Brawn is always on the teat, so I thought everything was good. Last week, they were 3 weeks old and Brawn looked bad. He would stand for 20 minutes or so hunched up several times a day (I thought, thats weird) and I really noticed how sunken in the sides he was. So I weighed them, which I should of done at birth.  Brawn weighed 10.6 and Coco was 18.4. I had a homemade sweater on both of them so I did not notice. As I stared at him, I realized he looked barely any bigger than the day he was born, how did I not notice how much Coco was twice the size of him now. 

So five days ago, I treated them both with selenium paste, started them both on Corid for coccidia (today was day 5). I have given Brawn 2 doses of MultiDrench, an enima, and I supplement him 3 times a day with Cows milk mixed with just a little of Goat replacer to sweeten (he takes about 6-8 ounces thoughout whole day) and still continues to nurse on Dotti while I now for the last few days, give him his own private session with her while keeping Coco away. They also get alfalfa and regular hay, free choice along with a few bites of grain they will eat. He is doing better as far as not hunching up his back and has never looked sickly, but still not fat like Coco. Next weekend they both will be getting their worming and CD&T shots. Just trying to space these medications out.

What do you think I am missing here. Those that are familiar with me and my story know that I am a newby. I am concerned because of his growth is not at the level of Coco's. But again, he is lively, energic, talkative, alert. Can goats be runts? I will weigh him again later, but just looking at him, I'm not expecting too much gain.  
http://www.corid.com/


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## Louannx (Dec 10, 2018)




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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 10, 2018)

@Goat Whisperer  just got power back on after snow storm...i think her and SBC were helping you with advice, I have ND goats, yes some can be smaller but i would either  pm them with a message or wait  a little for them to catch up with life, animals and BYH, ...best of luck with your kids


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## Louannx (Dec 10, 2018)

Thank you @B&B Happy goats.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 10, 2018)

You might try penning Coco, allowing her to nurse but, not at will.  At same time leave Brawn with mom to nurse at will.  For a week. Weigh both first, then weigh at end of week.   Hopefully it will put a little growth on him.  She won't lose from this, obviously a guzzler!     Goat milk will have more fat in it than cow, so if buying supplement look for that...or milk mom & use that for extra bottle.   Be sure he is being allowed to nurse! 

I had a doe kid trips last pring … great mom, not FF.  #3 was born after other two had been cleaned & nursed.   While she cleaned, loved on and cared for #3, she would not let her nurse.    Would not fight me when I placed her on teat, stood nice, just not approach by kid & stand.   Others she nursed.   I used her milk and bottle fed that little girl, she was with other two & mom all the time.  WEIRD!

However it works, just keep milk going in!

My trips -- buckling sold, 2 doelings still with mom, both weaned, all three together and mom cares for both.


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## Baymule (Dec 10, 2018)

Don't beat yourself up over this. In time, you will learn to have a sharp eye for the little things. Observation is a powerful tool in keeping your animals healthy. Easy to say, harder to learn, but you already observed something amiss and have taken steps to correct it.


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## Louannx (Dec 13, 2018)

Ok, I believe we are on the uphill again. Brawn has gained 2 1/2 pounds this week and coco gained 4. It has been a challenging week with Brawn on the bottle supplementing. He would only take an ounce or two up to 3-4 times a day. I give him the bottle and afterward I put him on Dotti to finish him off. So in all I would supplement him about 6-8 ounces a day.

Well, I found a recipe to give him with a gallon of milk, butter milk, yogurt and evaporated milk and a little of the land of lakes goat replacer to sweeten. I do not know if he has learned the bottle or likes the recipe but he drunk about 12-13 ounces throughout the whole day plus being on Dotti. He looks more filled out and not starved looking. I am feeling hopeful again. 

I am wondering if maybe he is not a strong sucker. He has always been on Dotti since birth way more than Coco so I could not figure out what was going on with him and his weight. Coco is a strong sucker, she latches on and goes at it just guzzling. With the bottle, he takes it from the side of his mouth and cannot suck hard from the front of it. Maybe that has been the problem?


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## Mini Horses (Dec 14, 2018)

He may have a problem in his mouth, tongue tied, etc.   If he had a pallet issue he would have milk regurgitation from mouth or nose.  It can happen.   If he will take the bottle keep giving it.   Glad he is doing better !


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## Louannx (Dec 17, 2018)

I have made the decision to pull both kids off of Dotti. They will be 5 weeks old in two days. I feel like I have become crazy goat lady over the last couple months. Dotti has had teeth marks above her teats were it joins with the udder. I have been treating it with peppermint oil and Vitamin E, I guess this started when they were a week or two old. It would look bad and then I would get it good again. I guess as they are growing it is getting harder to heal it back up. I started using Vetericyn and that helped but the other day she would not let either of them nurse and she kicked Brawn right in the face. So I got ahold of her and looked up under her udder and one teat is terrible. They nawled on her good and it was bloody about an inch wide right up under their were it is hard to see. It is both kids, they both had blood on their face, or it is Coco trying to take it from Brawn and they are fighting.

They have always been rough and I am so thankful I am not a goat! I separated them and Dotti and the kids screamed for hours. They were separated by a fence and could see each other. So I came up with an idea to make her a goat bra so she could still be with them and to go ahead and just dry her up and I started giving her sage tea a couple times a day. We would go cold turkey and her udders were full. I believe Dotti's health is more important and I do not want her to get that mastitis or gangrene. 

Well everything went good for two days, goats were happy. I came and fed the kids 4 times a day (they have bit through 4 nipples already on the bottles. These are supposed to be heavy duty). I felt comfortable so I went to town and when I got back, Dotti's cloth was off and they done drained one udder and the other was still full and bleeding bad. It looked really BAD. She was all lopsided, so I got her down on her side and I gently milked that one out half way. I sprayed her down with iodine and completely separated them again. They are all three screaming again, so I go out and pet Dotti and talk softly to her and love on her a bit. They will all lay down together at the fence and Dotti looks heartbroken. 

Today her udder looks 80% better and is scabbing back over. The sage tea must be working because her udder is not full and tight. She is walking and getting around comfortably and does not look like in pain like before, she looks depressed and wants her babies. But she is looking good. Am I doing the right thing? Has anyone else had kids that just nawled on their mom and had to be removed?

I am bottle feeding them 4 times a day along with goat developer and Calf manna grain. Hay and alfalfa hay, vitamins b complex, minerals. I did not want to bottle feed the kids and tried everything to make this work. Other people say they have goats and leave them in the pasture and dont tend to them and the goats pretty much take care of themselves and their babies. I have the high maintenance goat and I just love her so much. Me and her have been through so much, I am just so exhausted.  

Brawn is doing really well and really starting to feel out. He is looking really nice and has a good tummy going now. He is a side bottle drinker and I have tried repeatedly to correct this, but it is his mouth. Coco is a natural but stubborn. 

Some family said I should just let them be, what did goats do before owners? Well I'm not going to knowingly mistreat any animal and I will always find a way to ease it's suffering. Anybody ever been through this?


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## Louannx (Dec 17, 2018)




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## Baymule (Dec 17, 2018)

Poor Dottie. You sure are a good goat mommy and you are taking good care of her and the babies. I have sheep, none have ever knawed at the teats like this. I'm sure your Dottie isn't the only one to experience this.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 17, 2018)

I wonder if her udder getting chewed up has anything to do with Brawn sucking out of the side of his mouth?  Have you ever checked his bite?


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## StarSpangledNubians (Dec 17, 2018)

IMO, I think you are definitely doing the right thing. I am planning to pull all my dairy kids next year due to this reason(Well, one of many reasons) I've had to sell 2 does due to this reason. With a dairy goat, if the udder is destroyed she can't do much other then produce kids, and even then you won't have milk for them. So normally they are culled. Even with meat breeds, as they would no longer be able to raise kids with no udder. Most goats are fine with kids on them but sometimes, especially with multiples, you can end up with problems if they favor one teat. As far as what that family said to you. These are not wild (goats without owners) goats. They have been domesticated, bred to look and produce a specific way. Wild goats adapted and evolved to live and survive in the wild. And these problems do occur in the wild, but they are wild. We don't normally see the deaths, we don't see the problems. Normally if these things happen the animal dies, or you just can't tell because they don't want to show weakness. We have changed goats in many ways. I find goats have more problems then people say. Like 99.9% of kidding do fine naturally. I find it is more of 60%. Anyways, If you left them on her, you could have risked infection, issues with future kidding, etc. Just my 2 cents.


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## Louannx (Dec 17, 2018)

I am so overwhelmed by all the support of you all. @Baymule @frustratedearthmother @StarSpangledNubians 

I’m probably like a lot of others that said “hey let’s get some goats”, not knowing all the work that goes into it. But I am so attached and cannot image not having them now, but i was NOWHERE prepared for not knowing much about them. 

Dotti did look infected yesterday and they took another layer of the skin off that her scab was covering. It was just hanging so I went straight for the iodine. Today, she looks totally better. I just got through with their last bottle and checked Dotti, her udder looks nice and healing up well. It is not swollen tight or full and she is letting me feel around. It is a nice warm to the touch, so I believe again I was blessed and fortunate to a good outcome. I did slip her a handful of Cheerios while I praised her since I have her on grass hay and water. 

With Dotti, we have just had one thing after another happen, which none of it was her fault. She could not help two kids tried to come out at once or that I waited so long to go in and get them or that the littler one was not getting enough to eat or that they tried to nawl off her teat. This is all my fault and a good learning experience. I think it is my ignorance and lack of knowledge that has lead a change of events. Unfortunately, I don’t know anyone with goats, so google and this forum is all I have. And by the way, google sucks with information. Lol

Again, thank you for all the support, and patiently listening to a beginners frustrations.


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## Louannx (Dec 17, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I wonder if her udder getting chewed up has anything to do with Brawn sucking out of the side of his mouth?  Have you ever checked his bite?


I do not know how to check his bite or what that means, but I will google it. Lol


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## Baymule (Dec 17, 2018)

We all had to start somewhere. 

do you know how many friends I have around here that have sheep? ZERO. BYH is a blessing!


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## Carla D (Dec 17, 2018)

Have you tried raisins for Dotti? I discovered tonight my kids go more crazy over raisins than they do for Cheetos. Brawn is a complete heartthrob! I have not tried breeding any goats yet. I’m pretty green about goats. But I’m learning. I have found this group has a lot better information than anything I’ve googled as well. Good luck on your goats. You have beautiful goats.


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## Louannx (Dec 17, 2018)

Carla D said:


> Have you tried raisins for Dotti? I discovered tonight my kids go more crazy over raisins than they do for Cheetos. Brawn is a complete heartthrob! I have not tried breeding any goats yet. I’m pretty green about goats. But I’m learning. I have found this group has a lot better information than anything I’ve googled as well. Good luck on your goats. You have beautiful goats.


Thank you so much! Yes Dotti loves raisins, carrots and apples. 

Googling is a lot of misinformation. Half the stuff is do and half the stuff is don’t.


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## Louannx (Dec 18, 2018)

@frustratedearthmother 
I am sad to write this. I did some reading up on the bite and parrot mouth. After looking at Brawn this morning, he has an underbite that completely misses the top gums. But what is even more concerning is I discovered he has maybe a cleft palate. His is curved and the last half is deep caveous line. I believe I have found the problem and they say it is unfixable. He does get a runny nose at times and milk does come out but I figured it was because he had a cold. 

Looking at Coco, her mouth is normal and there is no denying that Brains is deformed. I am not sure if I should put him down at this point. I need to do more reading. I think maybe I should put Coco back with Dotti, her udder looks great. Suggestions? What should I do at this point with both of them?


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 18, 2018)

I  am so sorry to hear this - but there had to be an explanation for how he was always trying to nurse and how Dotti's udder was getting chewed up.  I've never had any personal experience with this so I have no words of wisdom...   I'm sure others will chime in with ideas.  If not - maybe a call to your vet just for some advice?


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## Louannx (Dec 18, 2018)

Thank you, it all makes sense now. Not once during all my reading for Brawn ever mention this. I never thought to check. Now i know to always check after birth. I am thinking to put Coco back with Dotti before she dries up. I just thought if i could get Brawn caught up with his sister than everything would be better. My kids (my boys) will be devastated, but from what I am reading, there is no good outcome. Cleft Palate goes hand and hand with heart defeat as well as pneumonia. I just see it continuing to be one thing after another. Please someone that has experience chime in, cause I am really leaning on just putting my little guy down.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/cleftpalate.html


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## StarSpangledNubians (Dec 18, 2018)

I'm so sorry. I've never dealt with this other than on a deformed kid. I don't really have any advice either. Maybe try and find some old threads I'm sure there are some on here. Maybe read them while waiting on a response from someone who has dealt with it.


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## Louannx (Dec 18, 2018)

I understand. We have made the decision to put him down this afternoon. I looked up in there in the sunlight and I can see into his nose cavity really well. Honestly, I have kept him alive and put a belly on him, but he has gotta heavier but not growing and flureshing like he should. When you google”why would you put down a goat kid” this pulls up along with them being born with no anus. 

Dotti was pregnant when we got her and it said it could be heritary, selenium defiency, or eating poisonous plants, medications, ect. 

He would not have a normal life and would continuously battle pneumonia. The gap gets larger as they grow, it would be different if I could get him past this and it actual closed. But he is a little fighter and will always be with me, as bad as this is, I know it is the right thing to do.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Dec 18, 2018)

That's a good decision. I have heard of people keeping them alive but it can be very difficult and expensive. And in the long run, they might end up suffering. It's a hard thing to do, but it the right thing. So sorry you have just had one problem after another. Learn from it and next time you will be more prepared.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 18, 2018)

I am  so sorry for you , you did the very best that you could do  .....having goats is a joy...please don't  give up ........you had a rare situation  and have done a excellent job. ..... you are a great goat mom and we all feel your sadness.


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## Louannx (Dec 18, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> I am  so sorry for you , you did the very best that you could do  .....having goats is a joy...please don't  give up ........you had a rare situation  and have done a excellent job. ..... you are a great goat mom and we all feel your sadness.


Thank you for your words of encouragement!!! It is very sad and heartbreaking, I delivered my little guy. I am so relived to actually know what is going on. I have giving Brawn all kinds of treatments, supplements, vitamins and minerals thinking it could be worms or deficiency. Again, this is where inexperience comes into play. I have looked at his teeth and looked down his mouth but without knowledge, I didnt know what I was looking for. I did read about nursing issues and tongue tied but nothing fit, till I started investigating his bite and cleft palate kept coming up. I thought, no way he has that, and here we are.

He is such a sweet little guy, I apologized to him for not catching this earlier and putting him through all this.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 18, 2018)

We all have to start at some point of learning, you did a fine job. Now next time when a doeling won't  nurse, i bet you will check that kid from head to toe. I haven't  had a kid with a cleft palate, but a puppy in a litter i had to put down. And I have had to put goats down also, its  always sad, but it is the kindest thing you could of done for  Brawn


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## Louannx (Dec 18, 2018)

Thank you, I will let you know how it goes. I am waiting for my husband and we will do it this afternoon or this evening. I'm dreading it, but I know it has to be done.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 18, 2018)

I am so sorry you are faced with such a tough decision.     It does seem that this really is what needs to be done.  You gave him the best life he could have had under the circumstances and I commend you for deciding to do what's best for him.


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## Louannx (Dec 18, 2018)

Brawn is no longer with us. It is much easier to talk about something than doing it. I am taking this pretty hard.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 18, 2018)




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## StarSpangledNubians (Dec 18, 2018)

It'll be alright. Just focus on the ones you have that are alive and well. Take in everything and learn from it. You have an experience now. Maybe one day you can pass it on and possibly save others, or point them in the right direction as for what to look for.


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## babsbag (Dec 18, 2018)

You made the right decision, albeit a very hard one. I have had two with cleft palates, the first one got pneumonia twice before 4 months and she was very small. I came to the barn one day and she was gone. Other birth defects are common when a cleft palate presents. The second kid I had with a cleft palate I put down immediately, hers was very very bad and she couldn't eat at all.


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## goatgurl (Dec 18, 2018)

i'm so sorry you've had to deal with this with your first goats.  as hard as it way you have made the right decision for brawn.  had a buck kid born with a cleft pallet some years back and you are so right, it never gets any easier or better for them.  thank you for sharing this experience so that others can learn from it. 
in my opinion I would not put the other kid back on mom simply because as they start to dry off their udder goes thru changes and it wouldn't be good for her to start making milk again.  throw the whole chemistry thing off.  good luck and enjoy them both.


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## Baymule (Dec 18, 2018)

Big hugs. It is a measure of the person that you are, in your decision, hard as it is. A weak person would dither about, professing "love" for the poor thing, letting him suffer and finally die, but you pulled strength from somewhere deep and did what had to be done. Grief is real, it hurts, he was just an innocent little baby goat. What did he do to deserve this? There is no satisfactory answer to this. It just happens and there is nothing you can do to prevent it or fix it. Sometimes it really sucks being a strong person.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 18, 2018)




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## Latestarter (Dec 18, 2018)

Tough decision, but the right one, and you done good kid! The little guy no longer needs to suffer, and in return, you'll hurt for a while because he no longer does. All part of owning animals. Move forward with your new found knowledge and experience and enjoy the living animals that remain with you and those new ones to come!


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## Louannx (Dec 19, 2018)

In loving memory of Brawn (Nov 14th - Dec 18th)

We made the decision to put Brawn down yesterday when we discovered he had Cleft Palate. I hope this story can help someone else. When you know something is not right but cannot put your finger on it, keep reaching out, asking questions and reading all you can. 

He was such a sweet little soul and no longer has to suffer.


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## Latestarter (Dec 19, 2018)




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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 19, 2018)

You were brave and did the right thing, though it wasn't easy.


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## Carla D (Dec 19, 2018)

You did really good by Brawn. You kept him comfortable, gave him love, helped his momma heal


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