# To breed or not to breed??



## L J (May 4, 2015)

I have a 3 1/2 month old katahdin ram lamb and 2 lamb ewes (one is Barbados cross) from same farm (plus my sheep/goat hybrid who is now castrated)  My understanding is that the relation is more like 2nd cousins(if that close), not direct siblings.  Are they ok to breed with each other?

I've never raised sheep until now, but I do have experience breeding horses and cows. 

My purpose for breeding would be to sell the babies.  Otherwise these are just pets.

I am reading they could possibly breed soon (5 months??) Buyt the girls only weigh 30-40 lbs right now (ram is closer to 50-60).  If I do breed them, should I wait a full year or is this fall ok? should I keep the ram separate until I decide to breed?

Any suggestions, opinions etc is great appreciated.  I was going to castrate the ram lamb, but I got him home, and he is just so gorgeous, all I could think of is that he will make beautiful babies. The woman I got him from seemed to think he would make a great breeding ram. He does have a sweet personality. not one hint of aggression. 

I'm adding a couple pics. The white one is one of the ewe lambs. We call the ram Mr. Brown for now.  (take a close look at the 2nd pic, my geep is examining the ram, lol)


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## samssimonsays (May 4, 2015)

HAHAHAHA!!! I love the second picture. Priceless. and you are so right, he is gorgeous.


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## mikiz (May 4, 2015)

The ram does look like a sweetie, who couldn't love that face!
I think if you want to breed you should probably keep the ram separate until you know how heavy the girls are supposed to be, I think it's 80% of their mature weight? You could give him the geep for company.


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## Sheepshape (May 5, 2015)

Yes,I'd agree that it really depends on how big the ewe lambs grow by the time that you would want to breed them.

This year I had an great surprise. A little (and I mean little....probably 50% of expected weight) ewe lamb who would have been just 7 months old produced twin lambs.....unassisted on a very cold night as no=one knew of her state (thick and fairly long winter coat). She had been all the time with a group of lambs too small to consider for breeding, and never close to (or so we thought) a ram. So.....no extra food, no supplements etc. The little lambs are now two weeks old and the ewe and the lambs are looking very fit and healthy. Nature has a way of confounding.


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## SheepGirl (May 5, 2015)

They likely won't come into heat until fall anyway, around 7-8 months old. They should be fine to breed together; I've bred full siblings, maternal half siblings, sire/daughter, dam/son, and haven't had an issue. Cousins wouldn't be a problem.


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## Ridgetop (May 5, 2015)

I had only one ram until this year and he bred his daughter producing a eweling, then he bred the granddsaughter eweling producing a ram.  Both of them are fine.  I told my breeder friend that I was going to make the 3rd gen terminal, but she told me that in sheeop you can breed father  x daughter for 4 gens before you have trouble.  The problem hits in the 5th generation when the lambs will be born with a lot of genetic problems.  So I would say, if you want to breed the ram to the ewelings, go ahead.  Since the ewes and ram are only cousins and one is even an outspecies outcross, they will be fine to breed.  That is called line breeding which is how most people breed to intensify the best genetic qualities of their animals.  Once you have a couple of ewes out of him, you can even breed him to his daughters if you are trying to grow your flock.  When you get to the 3rd generation ewelings, replace the ram with an outcross.  Sorry, an outcross ram is a ram with no family ties to your sheep. 

I replaced my ram this year but am keeping my old ram for another year.  We had lost our old LGD and had some dog kills last year before we got our Anatolian.  So we bought a couple of replacement ewelings this year as well, and are exposing them to the old ram to have more unrelated ewelings for the new ram.  Then I will sell the old ram next year.  He is only 3 , and a terrific out of season breeder.  I really like him, but don't really want more than one ram on the property.


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## Bossroo (May 6, 2015)

These sheep are cute.  However , to be honest from the breeding perspective, cute does not equate to breeding  quality as  their conformation does not say anything that would improve on the quality of the next generation.  Their destiny would be best served by castrating the ram and just keep all of them as pets .


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## mysunwolf (May 6, 2015)

Honestly, he looks like a good prospect for a breeding ram. Not excellent, but a pretty solid guy. His bone structure is a little thin, but not bad. He's a little short in length, but you could always breed him over longer females. I think there's no harm in keeping him and breeding him to create some fun sheep for you. I would recommend waiting until the ewe lamb is at least 8 months, and then only if she is a good weight as @mikiz said.


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## L J (Oct 27, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> These sheep are cute.  However , to be honest from the breeding perspective, cute does not equate to breeding  quality as  their conformation does not say anything that would improve on the quality of the next generation.  Their destiny would be best served by castrating the ram and just keep all of them as pets .


  My goal is selling the lambs for butcher, you think they aren't good enough even for that? 




mysunwolf said:


> Honestly, he looks like a good prospect for a breeding ram. Not excellent, but a pretty solid guy. His bone structure is a little thin, but not bad. He's a little short in length, but you could always breed him over longer females. I think there's no harm in keeping him and breeding him to create some fun sheep for you. I would recommend waiting until the ewe lamb is at least 8 months, and then only if she is a good weight as @mikiz said.


Wow, I totally forgot this thread.  Had to tend to some medical stuff this summer, but Im tip top now.

Anyway, My intent for breeding would just be to make a little extra cash to help offset costs of having them.  Most likely will add 1-2 ewes this next spring to add "new blood."  Obviously they are meat sheep, not for show quality. Admittedly new to this, just with my own research and this message board trying to gain as much knowledge about this as possible.

I looked back at those photos and had to Laugh. Capone (formerly Mr. Brown) does look skinny, but that was 5 months ago.  Here are a couple pics from this weekend, first pic is w the ewes.  He sure is flirting a lot as I call it. The girls are squatting and swishing their tails, but I haven't seen any breeding yet. I've been home for the last month and can see them all day from my living room.  Watching their behavior has been quite interesting to say the least.


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## L J (Oct 27, 2015)

oh, btw, I haven't tried to pick him up , but I would estimate his weight now at well over 100 lbs, maybe close to 150. The girls are pushing 70-80.


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## secuono (Oct 27, 2015)

You can breed full siblings for meat, but you use the meat, since buyers will lie that they want them for meat and then turn around and breed them. All to save a penny...

But these aren't that closely related and they don't need to be perfect for selling as meat or grazers. Just make sure buyers know what they're for and then hope they are honest. 

They should be plenty big to breed now. 

What was it, 2/3 of their projected adult size is big enough to breed?


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## SheepGirl (Oct 31, 2015)

I breed my ewe lambs on their first heat, regardless of weight. Since 2013, I have had:
2013: 1 ewe, 0 dystocia
2014: 3 ewes (1 a yearling that should've lambed 2013 but didn't), 2 dystocia (but this was also a year where my mature ewes were having issues as well--I attributed it to overfeeding the ewes/big lambs)
2015: 2 ewes, 1 dystocia

And this upcoming year I am having 17 ewes lamb, 9 of them ewe lambs. We will see what happens. But I'm not worried or concerned.

As far as your sheep, I'm sure you're going to breed them anyway, even if someone says not to. But if you're using them for meat, I would use a different ram. It is always a good idea to see the ram when he would be market weight/market age to see what his lambs will look like when they go to be butchered. And while he is filled out now (but still not a lot of muscle), he looked pretty wormy and a dud as a lamb. I'm sure you're still going to use the ram because breeding season is upon us and I'm sure you're attached (who doesn't get attached to at least one of their critters?) so you'll probably end up keeping him. Eat all the babies (including ewes). But for you next breeding ram, choose one meatier and bigger to improve your flock so you don't keep going backwards.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 4, 2015)

I agree with Sheepgirl about replacing your ram.  I don't want to upset you or hurt your feelings, but if you are planning to add more ewes and start breeding freezer lambs (with all being terminal which I would recommend) then you should wether that ram and replace him with a meatier one.  It is hard to tell with wool on, but even wearing a fuzzy coat your ram has very little meat in the hind quarters. 
    Secuono is right when she says that people will lie about buying a cheap animal for a pet to save money.  People think that show standards in animals are just for the show ring but they are actually a guide to follow when breeding for meat (in meat breeds).  Wool breeds have their own guidelines.   Many people buy animals as pets and then think they can breed and sell their animals for meat without any thought to the quality of the breeding stock and it is not true.  Think about the cuts of meat you pay premium prices for in the store - leg of lamb, loin chops and shoulder roast.  Your ram has almost no leg muscle and his offspring will carry those genetics.  The breeding sheep you want for meat should be heavy muscled through the rear leg, long and wide through the loin (or saddle area) and also carry a thick shoulder.  You will not get any meat on the carcass without those 3 areas being thick and full.  When selecting for a breeding flock, good feet and sturdy legs, ability to convert feed to flesh, easy lambing, etc.  I prefer a shorter animal since nothing below the knee is edible.
     Cute will not get you repeat sales which is what selling meat is all about.  Even if you take your animals to the auction, smart buyers will not buy thin animals.  Dress out weight on a lamb or goat is only 45 to 50% meat even with a good meaty animal - your ram would not dress out to that percentage. 
    What is the feed cost in your area?  If you have pasture, how many acres do you need per animal?  There is a drought in many parts of the country and pasture is not available.  Unless you have plenty of cash for hay and grain, you are going to want the lambs to pay for at least part of their feed cost.  That includes the cost of upkeep on the ram and breeding ewes.  How many lambs can you produce in a year?  What do you intend to sell them for?  Remember that buyers won't pay much for a thin looking animal.  You will need to castrate all your ram lambs.  First, they grow better to slaughter size, second remember Secuono's warning about people buying animals and lying about what they plan to do with them.  An unwethered ram should only be sold for breeding. 
     I would also caution you about keeping a ram as a pet.  Rams that are friendly as lambs usually become dangerous as adult breeding animals.  A ram can break a man's thigh bone with a single blow.  If you still want to use your ram for breeding, be careful around him as he gets older. 
      We all love our animals so I don't want to offend you, but if you are asking for advice, listen to Sheepgirl and Secuono.


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## L J (Nov 10, 2015)

I rather not pay my vet to castrate at this point. As I have been told he would need surgery at this age.  Yes I love my sheep, but I am also practical. I am not rich, so its not like I Have an abundance of money to just rescue sheep for no reason.  If he has to go, well that's part of life.  I also know the dangers of a ram, which is why I carry the pitch fork any time I enter the pasture.

At this point nature has taken its course, So unless he is shooting blanks the likely hood of lambs in April is pretty high. In the meantime I will look at alternative options for the ram.
I appreciate the advice, not offended by any of it at all. (*yes a bit sad as I thought he was a pretty decent ram)

Last thought...is there something else I could do food wise? I give them plenty of hay, pasture is available, oats and even hay pellets, mineral block.  Am I missing something?


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## promiseacres (Nov 10, 2015)

One thought is to put him in the freezer in late winter, then get a new ram next year. We eat our rams, just do not butcher during their rutt.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 11, 2015)

if you are asking if there is something you can feed to put meat on him, probably not.  His lack of muscle meat is not due to lack of feed (according to what you are feeding now) but genetic.  You need to replace him with a ram that has a large thick leg, wide and long back with thick muscle.  The lambs he has sired now will be great for you to learn on since I think you said this will be your first experience with lambing.  You can coax a little more meat onto the lambs by making a creep so they can get extra feed without having to fight with the adult sheep.  Like Promise says, as long as he is not in rut the meat will be edible if you choose to butcher him.  Depending on where you live, some ethnic buyers prefer to buy a ram to eat.


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## n8ivetxn (Jan 9, 2016)

I think, genetically speaking, it would be just fine to breed your group....even if you line bred for a bit, the most likely problem you'd see is a decrease in fertility rates. That's usually the first thing to go wrong.

I always wait until my ewe lambs are a year old. I'm just not in that big of a hurry to breed them. I know you're supposed to wait until they are 70% of their full size....

I had 3 weanlings in a pen together. 2 rams and a ewe. Now, these lambs were 4+ months old.... I go out on Christmas eve and the little ewe is in a standing heat with one of the ram lambs mounted! I couldn't believe it. - So, now I'm waiting for the vet to get some Lutalyse in stock so I can give her a shot of it.... It does happen. (to me!)


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## Baymule (Apr 17, 2016)

@L J there is nothing wrong with starting with less than perfect sheep. I am a newbie too and started with 4 cross bred ewes, bred to a Katahdin. I thought it best to start with cross breds than registered sheep. If I kill a sheep due to starter's ignorance, I would be heart broken, but hurting over a sheep the cost $$$$$ would hurt worse. I am buying a Dorper ram to put more butt on my lambs. I am learning as I go, just like you. Buy a better ram, upgrade as you can afford it, but most of all, enjoy your sheep and have fun with them.


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## L J (Apr 18, 2016)

Baymule said:


> @L J there is nothing wrong with starting with less than perfect sheep. I am a newbie too and started with 4 cross bred ewes, bred to a Katahdin. I thought it best to start with cross breds than registered sheep. If I kill a sheep due to starter's ignorance, I would be heart broken, but hurting over a sheep the cost $$$$$ would hurt worse. I am buying a Dorper ram to put more butt on my lambs. I am learning as I go, just like you. Buy a better ram, upgrade as you can afford it, but most of all, enjoy your sheep and have fun with them.


He  made beautiful babies....although one is on the smaller size, the other ewe lamb is pretty thick and stocky.  I'll go at least one more breeding round and see what happens.


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