# Lenora is CAE positive, I need advice.



## DonnaBelle (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello all,

Well, Dr. Glover just called.  Lenora is CAE positive.  She's my 4 yr. old pregnant doe.

I called the breeder and he said he would take her back and give me my $300.00 back.

I am not "in love" with her like I am Annie and Felecia.

I don't know what to do and I would sure appreciate some advice from some more experienced goat people.

DonnaBelle


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## ksalvagno (Mar 9, 2010)

If you don't want to deal with the disease, I would take her back. it isn't worth the hassles and you can probably find another goat that is disease free.

You are looking at taking her kids away from her and heat treating her colostrum and pasteurize her milk for the kids. Definite bottle babies. 

So I guess you will want to consider how much work you want to do. I don't believe the other goats will catch it from her but other experienced goat owners may know differently.

By the way, how is Annie doing?


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 9, 2010)

Annie is doing much better.  She still has a bit of a cough, and her nose is a little snotty, but her symptoms have modified some.

I have her on a regimin of 1.1 cc of Draxxen antibiotic once a week for 4 weeks.  Then I have to call Dr. Simpson at OSU and she will decide if we should continue the Draxxen.

But she is definately much better.

We had rain all day yesterday, another inch.  This place is so waterlogged.  Today the sun is shining and DH is working on the new goat barn.  

I really wish El Nino would just go away already.

DonnaBelle


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## lupinfarm (Mar 9, 2010)

I *think* other goats can get CAE from a goat if they have an open wound, and blood gets mixed, etc etc. But I could be wrong. Good luck with whatever you choose to do!


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 9, 2010)

It's definitely a personal decision.  Some people freak out about CAE, and some don't even test for it (because most likely they're heat treating everything anyway).  My doe is positive, and I just pulled the babies right after they were born and am bottling them.  I love my doe too much to get rid of her for something that isn't that much of a hassle for me to control.  The milk is still fine to drink.  It's fairly difficult for a goat to "catch it" because it's transmissible though colostrum/milk, so unless you have goats that nurse each other, I'd think you should be fine.  

Are you going to or do you bottle all the babies anyways?  If so, it might not be a hassle for you.  You'd either need to find a source of colostrum or heat treat it.  If you feed milk replacer, then it's no big deal.  If you hate bottling babies and don't want the hassle of having to do that, then you might want to return her.  

I had a small freak out when I found out my girl was positive, but after talking with several other goat breeders, I decided that for me, it wasn't a huge deal.  

Good luck with your decision, and I'm sorry she's positive.


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## lupinfarm (Mar 9, 2010)

> The CAE virus is primarily transmitted to kids via colostrum in the first few feedings after birth. Blood (e.g., contaminated instruments such as needles, dehorners, etc, and open wounds) is regarded as the second most common way of spread.


From WADDL 

It also says that transmission between adults is rare, but possible. If you like her, keep her. Bottle feeding isn't that big a deal


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks to all of you who posted about Lenora.

Yes, we really like Lenora, plus we are retired and do have time to bottle feed.

I talked with DH about it, he says we'll keep her and bottle feed the kid.

I also called the breeder I got Annie and Felicia from.  She's a very dedicated goat person and told me to chill out and just be prepared and bottle feed the kid/kids.  She is bottle feeding 15 of them right now.  OMG.  But she's had goats for about 15 years and is really knowlegable. She said she will give me all the advice/instruction I need via phone anytime.  

She really made me feel better, and I can do this.  In fact, she told me she really enjoys feeding the babies.

So, there's the decision, hope I've made the right one.  

Lenora's knees are not nearly as swollen as they were the day after we brought her home.  She doesn't have any symptoms now, the lady I spoke with yesterday said she may have been stressed from being moved.  She gets around really well, and climbs goat mountain every day (concrete blocks stacked up 2 high, cemented in place too)

Thanks again everyone for your support.  

DonnaBelle


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## ksalvagno (Mar 10, 2010)

That is great that you decided to keep her. Everyone has to make their own decision about things and there are always plenty of options.

Good luck with Lenora and her kids. I'm sure you will truly enjoy them.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 10, 2010)

If one of ours came up positive, I'm sure we'd keep her.  We're "weird" like that, though...would hate to think of one of ours going off to the butcher, or into someone else's herd where they may be neglected to the point that they became totally lame and in constant pain.

I'll tell you this, though..  If I got a positive CAE, the very next phone call I'd make would be to the vet to inquire about carprofen...generic Rimadyl.  It's an NSAID, like banamine or ketofen, but it's designed specifically for long-term use.  I wouldn't wait for the knees to get any worse, either, as inflammation is kinda how that happens...the earlier you stem the inflammation, the slower the damage occurs, and the longer the knees hold out.

I would think, anyway..

My vet actually has a client's goats on Rimadyl because they have, as he put it, "really bad arthritis in their knees."  I'm sure it's CAE, though he didn't specifically mention it being CAE..  Point was, he indicated that they were doing well on it.  Reason he mentioned it was that we were thinking of putting a UC buck on it for a while, though we ended up not having to do that.

Anyway, just a thought..  Might be worth a call, if you're going to keep her.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks CM for the suggestion about the Rymadyl.

I have given that to my dogs as a pain killer after surgery.

I'll ask Dr. Glover if I should start her on it.

Funny thing is, right now she is jumping on and off "goat mountain" and her knees are not swollen.

I just put a call into Dr. Glover, the vet who did the CAE test.  I asked his nurse to ask him about a regimen of Rymadyl.

We'll see what he says.

DonnaBelle


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## lupinfarm (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm not sure I'd start pumping my animal full of drugs though, cmjust0...

As you've said many many times they can develop a resistance to certain drugs. I mean, look at people who have to switch drugs because one they'e been taking for their whole life isn't working so great anymore. Perhaps starting off with a supplement would be best. I know horses and goats are drastically different, but my pony has arthritis in her hocks pretty bad and she's on a joint supplement at the moment. We give her Cortaflex and I have noticed a considerable amount of difference in the way she walks, turns, and even all her gaits. When we first got Luna she couldn't do anything more than turn on the haunches very awkwardly because she was in so much pain. We got her weight up, and she's on a supplement now to help with her joints. When the time comes I'll look into a long-term medication, but for now supplementation is a good option, and it might be a good option for the OP.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 10, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Thanks CM for the suggestion about the Rymadyl.
> 
> I have given that to my dogs as a pain killer after surgery.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure Rimadyl's been around long enough that there are generics now...  Be sure to ask about that, too...no sense in paying for name-brand when you can get a generic.  

I found this , too...only thing I could find suggesting a Carprofen dosage for a goat.



> Carprofen
> 1.4 mg/kg, 1 ml/35 kg s.c. or i.v. q3648h
> 1.4 mg/kg, 0.5 sachet/75 kg orally
> 
> ...


In the big table in the back of the doc, it lists the drug as:  "Carprofen 50mg/ml"..  I'm assuming that's the preparation from what they're pulling their "1ml/35kg" _injectable_ dosage from.  50mg/1.4mg = 35....kg, which is the recommendation.  The math works out.  Notice also that the 'q' value is 36-48h..  

Treatment could end up being as simple as a 2ml sq shot every 2 days, for a 150lb adult.  And, frankly, I'd do the shot before I'd do tablets if I had to to it on a regular basis.  Sounds counterintuitive, I know, but...well, I hate bolusing.  

Also, according to the document, Carprofen is approved for use in cattle....in the UK, at least.  Approved use in cattle is usually about as close as you can get to approved use in goats.   :/ 

Hope this helps.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 10, 2010)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I'd start pumping my animal full of drugs though, cmjust0...
> 
> As you've said many many times they can develop a resistance to certain drugs. I mean, look at people who have to switch drugs because one they'e been taking for their whole life isn't working so great anymore. Perhaps starting off with a supplement would be best. I know horses and goats are drastically different, but my pony has arthritis in her hocks pretty bad and she's on a joint supplement at the moment. We give her Cortaflex and I have noticed a considerable amount of difference in the way she walks, turns, and even all her gaits. When we first got Luna she couldn't do anything more than turn on the haunches very awkwardly because she was in so much pain. We got her weight up, and she's on a supplement now to help with her joints. When the time comes I'll look into a long-term medication, but for now supplementation is a good option, and it might be a good option for the OP.


May very well be the case, and a good suggestion..  I hadn't really thought about it, frankly.

I can tell you that when we were asking the vet about sources of glucosamine/chondroitin for our LGD, he mentioned looking at horse products.  So, I know they're out there..

I would think that if it's fit for a horse, it's probably fine for a goat too.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks for the good advice.  I'm going to do some more homework, and see if the Dr. can recommend a treatment should her knees become swollen.  Or I should say more swollen.  It seems they are a bit spongy.  I did get her to hold still while brushing her. She goes into a "trance"  with her eyes closed when I brush her with the stiff bristle brush.    Anyway, I felt them and they seemed a big "soft" and a tad swollen.  

I am going to keep an eye on those knees and her behaviors and if anything changes, I'll be sure to attend to it.

DonnaBelle


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 10, 2010)

Hmm.....Rimadyl for long-term use, CM?  Does it metabolize differently in goats than dogs?  Many times long term use in dogs results in liver damage.  My dog is on a supplement (not Rimadyl), but only a low dose and I have his bloodwork done yearly to make sure there are no long-term ill effects.

And I'm not sure rushing to medicate just from a positive result would be needed.  I mean, my doe is positive and she's not showing any signs of arthritis.  And would you also medicate your older animals when they start getting arthritic?  

I think providing a calm enviromnent and preventing stress (even such as lack of food, water, etc) will go a long way in preventing CAE flare ups.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 10, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Hmm.....Rimadyl for long-term use, CM?  Does it metabolize differently in goats than dogs?  Many times long term use in dogs results in liver damage.  My dog is on a supplement (not Rimadyl), but only a low dose and I have his bloodwork done yearly to make sure there are no long-term ill effects.
> 
> And I'm not sure rushing to medicate just from a positive result would be needed.  I mean, my doe is positive and she's not showing any signs of arthritis.  And would you also medicate your older animals when they start getting arthritic?
> 
> I think providing a calm enviromnent and preventing stress (even such as lack of food, water, etc) will go a long way in preventing CAE flare ups.


I have no idea how it metabolizes in goats...  All I know is what I was told by my vet about his experience with using it successfully with another client's goats, which seems to be backed up (impirically, anyway) by what I read in the link I posted above.

Liver damage?  Maybe...really can't speak to that.  Given that it's an NSAID, and that NSAIDS are known to be hard on the guts, I certainly wouldn't doubt it.

Personally....I'd use it if I had a goat with painful, swollen knees.  If that meant she developed liver problems later in life, so be it.  Reason being, I'd personally choose to have an animal in my care live a shorter life that was _better_ rather than a pain-filled life that was _longer_.



ETA:  As to rushing to medicate based on a positive alone, I should probably clarify...  I'd CAE test if I had a reason to suspect it or someone requests it in a goat they're purchasing.  Which is to say, a positive result around here would be from a goat that gave me reason to test...with that reason most likely being lameness.

So that's the point where I'd make the phone call...for a lame goat with a CAE+ diagnosis.  

In the OP's case, this goat's knees are inflamed.  They've been worse, and she seems to be doing OK for the time being, but this isn't a case where you get a CAE+ on a goat that's totally asymptomatic.  There are, or at least _have been_ symptoms.

So, you're right...rushing to treat on a diagnosis alone in an asymptomatic goat probably isn't the thing to do.  

That's not exactly the case here, though, which is why I suggested the OP investigate carprofen.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 10, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand your reasoning.  I'm just wondering why your vet said it's ok for long term use when in dogs it's not really ok.  I mean, sometimes liver damage is worse than what the rimadyl was treating. 

I understand medicating if a goat is sore, but your first post made it sound like you'd start treating right away.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 10, 2010)

atk said:
			
		

> I understand your reasoning.  I'm just wondering why your vet said it's ok for long term use when in dogs it's not really ok.  I mean, sometimes liver damage is worse than what the rimadyl was treating.


It's _designed_ for long-term use in dogs...that's precisely what it's for.  I have a hard time believing that something designed specifically for long-term use in dogs isn't considered OK to be used long term in dogs.

Consider that it's an NSAID, akin to Banamine.  We all know that Banamine pretty much has about a 3-day maximum use in goats, and that if you go much longer than that, you can pretty much burn a hole in their GI and run the risk of destroying their liver and/or kidneys.  

That's precisely where carprofen differs from flunixen and other NSAIDS...it's made to be used long term without -- or with a *substantially* decreased incidence of -- those types of issues.

Bear in mind, too, that certain breeds of dog apparently seem to have more problems with carprofen than other breeds.  For instance, carprofen is especially rough on Labs if I'm not mistaken.

How does that translate to goats?  Well, again, all I can tell you is that my vet has real-world experience with using it successfully to treat arthritic goats..  

Someone else's vet may have had real-world, negative experience using it on goats...but I haven't heard it.  Most vets, I suspect, have ZERO real-world experience using it on goats, and could probably only proceed on hypotheticals..

Ultimately, it's up to all of us to do what we think is right, and I wouldn't suggest any different for the OP.

In suggesting that she investigate carprofen...well, I was just saying what I'd do.  That's all.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 10, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Consider that it's an NSAID, akin to Banamine.  We all know that Banamine pretty much has about a 3-day maximum use in goats, and that if you go much longer than that, you can pretty much burn a hole in their GI and run the risk of destroying their liver and/or kidneys.


  That's funny because on another forum, members specifically say they've had great success using it long term, even though "they" say not to.  

Welcome to the wacky world of drugs and opinions.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 10, 2010)

Yep, Dr. Glover said if I gave an anti-inflamatory I'd also
need to give Zantac at the same time.   Well, for me, that would be at a later date, and maybe not at all if she doesn't get a lot worse than she is presently.

Again, I'm going to monitor Lenora and take it day by day.

Right now, she seems OK.  She is getting good quaility hay and supplemental feed and is current on her CD & T.

Dang!!  Having these goats is for sure not a piece of cake.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 10, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Yep, Dr. Glover said if I gave an anti-inflamatory I'd also
> need to give Zantac at the same time.   Well, for me, that would be at a later date, and maybe not at all if she doesn't get a lot worse than she is presently.
> 
> Again, I'm going to monitor Lenora and take it day by day.
> ...


I think famotidine is the more common recommended coupling with NSAIDs in animals...Pepcid A/C.  That's what I've heard the most, anyway.

I dunno how it works in goats, to be honest..

Next time I talk to the vet who mentioned carprofen and goats, I'm gonna drill him for a little more info.  He might even tell me who he prescribed it for, and I'm not shy about picking up the phone to call other goat people.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 10, 2010)

Sounds like a plan.  I try to post any info from vets on here, even if I don't like the sound of it.

Dr. Glover is a great guy, but he's a horse and cow man.  His bread and butter, so to speak.  

However, he is not above treating a goat, and will make house calls as he did when he came out an drew blood from Lenora.

Thanks again, CM

DonnaBelle


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## LostNation (Mar 10, 2010)

I'd be inclined to contemplate Mycoplasma as a possibility if the joint swelling is coming & going - icky, nasty stuff but it's at least treatable (w/ antibiotic), whereas CAE isn't.  In my experience, when a CAE goat "blows up" w/ the joint swelling . . . it's all downhill from there.    (Mycoplasma can be tested for by drawing fluid out from the swollen joints & sending it in for analysis - seems like this is one of the tests that MSU offers, if I'm remembering correctly)

Kind regards,
Sarah/Lost Nation Farm/MI


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## LostNation (Mar 10, 2010)

Follow up stuff that might be helpful (I don't know if these Merck Vet Manual links will come thru, properly, but . . . trying, anyway!):

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/90600.htm&word=mycoplasma,goat

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/90609.htm

Myriad of testing that MSU offers:
http://www.animalhealth.msu.edu/Misc/AD.ADM.REF.005.pdf


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## lupinfarm (Mar 10, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> lupinfarm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are they are they are! There are more generic versions of Cortaflex in a liquid that is MUCH cheaper than Cortaflex. I can't remember the name, but I believe Farnam makes a product that comes in a liquid that is good for dogs and humans and is far cheaper than the $60/bottle for the horse product. I didn't have much luck with just MSM, so the vet suggested trying Cortaflex and my pony is super picky about supplements and it came in a nice little alfalfa pellet which worked for us. Donnabelle might consider talking to her vet about a Cortaflex type product, since it comes in an alfalfa pellet she could add it to her goats feed if her vet thinks its a good idea. She'd have to lower the dose as the horse one is based on 1000lbs of weight, but its possible!


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## Jody (Mar 11, 2010)

Bottle feeding baby goats is awesome.  I have a baby that I'm bottle feeding and it's joyful to do it.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 12, 2010)

Hi all,

Well, getting ready to call Hoegger's and order some nipples, a kid drencher, a themometer to get the temperature on the colustrum.

When talking to Annie and Felicia's breeder yesterday she said that she uses a double boiler and heats the colustrum to exactly 135 degrees and then puts it in a good pre warmed thermos and then leaves it there for one hour before giving it to the kid.

I'm reading everything I can about bottle feeding.  I'm trying to have the proper items on hand before the happy day.  Which who knows when that will be, but not for a while, after April 11 said Lenora's breeder.

I only wish DH would get the new goat barn ready ASAP.  He is volunteering at the State Park this week, and is not here doing my bidding, much to my chagrin.  However, I am keeping my discontent to myself.    

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 12, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> Well, getting ready to call Hoegger's and order some nipples, a kid drencher, a themometer to get the temperature on the colustrum.


I've always wanted to say this...  

Might I recommend this  nipple?



We've tried a bunch of different ones, but have had the best luck with these.  

I also highly recommend starting kids out on bottles using an old-school thick glass pop bottle, preheated in hot water..  Holds the milk temp much better so you can fight longer.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 12, 2010)

Thanks CM, I just added a couple of those to the order.

DonnaBelle


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## RockyToggRanch (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm not a soda drinker...where do you find those old pop btls these days? an antique store? I should have some on hand as well.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 12, 2010)

You can usually find them in antique or junk shops.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 12, 2010)

Wow, you girls are right.  I stopped by an antique shop in Checotah this morning, I found three old thick glass pop bottles in there for $2.00 each.  

The woman at the counter said "oh you collect old bottles"  says I, nope, they're for my baby goat that's on the way.

They had several coke bottles, but they were the newer ones and very thin.

The ones I got today are thick green ones.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Mar 12, 2010)

DB said:
			
		

> The ones I got today are thick green ones.


Jackpot.  

A tip for ya..  When it comes time to put the grey nipple on the bottle, run some water over the "bottle end" of the nipple..  Just get it thoroughly wet, because lemme tell ya...trying to stuff dry rubber over dry glass is an exercise in frustration.  



If you happened to maybe get a little bit of milk on the rim of the glass bottle...that works even better!


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 12, 2010)

CM, what would we do without cha??

DB


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## cmjust0 (Mar 12, 2010)

NOBODY ANSWER THAT.


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