# My friend's goats are getting skinnier and skinnier...



## PattySh (Jan 13, 2011)

My friend has a herd of about 10 goats. I told her I'd ask for advice for her. The goats  looked good this summer when at pasture but are getting skinnier and skinnier the last couple of months and does are probably pregnant as they ran with a buck this fall. She was feeding what I consider poor quality hay up until the last 3 weeks or so. The goats loved it but it was very late cut, with tons of  late milkweed (which made me nervous)and brown dried leaves in it (which they avoided).  When several goats started looking thin she  found another hay source that she could afford and this  grass hay looks very green but is 2009 hay. She had not been feeding grain but started to feed sweet feed about 3 weeks ago when switched to the new hay.  She gives them loose minerals, not sure how much but not free fed.  All have been dewormed, very recently again. Prior to the weight loss as a herd several appear to be stunted in appearance (I have some same age  goats from same source and the difference is very obvious) One young goat (7 months or so) died a month ago or so after suddenly getting thin too. Poops are all fine and no one seems feverish. No runny noses or coughs or lice. They are not gaining weight at all and several are dangerously thin. She is now  feeding lots of grain (sweet feed)so I am thinking the hay is not very nutritional or that they are just not digesting their food. I haven't seen them in a week but today she said in this week they look worse. Because several appear stunted wondering if more is going on. Two other differences in our herds other than hay, mine had Entertoxemia/Tetanus shots and hers didn't and I have heated water buckets and her's freeze. Not sure she can up the hay quality so I've suggested hay stretcher pellets and trying to get heated buckets. At a loss at what else to tell her.  I just bought extra vaccines but not sure I can offer them to her as her goats are very thin and afraid for reactions.  Any advice for her?


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## PattySh (Jan 13, 2011)

My friend has a herd of about 10 goats. I told her I'd ask for advice for her. The goats  looked good this summer when at pasture but are getting skinnier and skinnier the last couple of months and does are probably pregnant as they ran with a buck this fall. She was feeding what I consider poor quality hay up until the last 3 weeks or so. The goats loved it but it was very late cut, with tons of  late milkweed (which made me nervous)and brown dried leaves in it (which they avoided).  When several goats started looking thin she  found another hay source that she could afford and this  grass hay looks very green but is 2009 hay. She had not been feeding grain but started to feed sweet feed about 3 weeks ago when switched to the new hay.  She gives them loose minerals, not sure how much but not free fed.  All have been dewormed, very recently again. Prior to the weight loss as a herd several appear to be stunted in appearance (I have some same age  goats from same source and the difference is very obvious) One young goat (7 months or so) died a month ago or so after suddenly getting thin too. Poops are all fine and no one seems feverish. No runny noses or coughs or lice. They are not gaining weight at all and several are dangerously thin. She is now  feeding lots of grain (sweet feed)so I am thinking the hay is not very nutritional or that they are just not digesting their food. I haven't seen them in a week but today she said in this week they look worse. Because several appear stunted wondering if more is going on. Two other differences in our herds other than hay, mine had Entertoxemia/Tetanus shots and hers didn't and I have heated water buckets and her's freeze. Not sure she can up the hay quality so I've suggested hay stretcher pellets and trying to get heated buckets. At a loss at what else to tell her.  I just bought extra vaccines but not sure I can offer them to her as her goats are very thin and afraid for reactions.  Any advice for her? I will say she can't afford a vet at the moment.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 13, 2011)

First, I would have a fecal done. One type of wormer doesn't take care of all parasites. Then worm appropriately.

Second, she needs to get good quality hay. If the hay is good quality, even the 2009 should be ok. There were a couple years when I overestimated hay and had hay going well into the second year. My animals never lost any weight or had any health issues.

Third, I would consider adding alfalfa pellets and Black Oil Sunflower Seeds. Is the sweet feed for goats or just a general sweet feed? I would also use a goat specific feed.

I would consider Johnes disease but from your description, it sounds like nutrition and parasites are probably the culprits.


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## PattySh (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow wonder how that double posted!


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## PattySh (Jan 13, 2011)

Sweet feed is goat specific. Personally I think it was the original hay, wondering also if they got some toxicity from the milkweed that affected digestion. I didn't see them chewing cuds last time I was there and asked her to check for that. I am going over tomorrow and will take a good look at them. This hay looks very green  but I'm really concerned as they are still losing. She said they got so skinny they are having trouble keeping warm now so shivering isn't helping either.  I suggested she take the hay for a free analysis at a local feed store. What about soaked beet pulp would they eat it? I know she can't afford a vet bill right now. If the food wasn't being digested properly they would have diarrea right? or not because they are not  drinking alot because the water freezes?


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## ksalvagno (Jan 13, 2011)

They could probably eat shredded beet pulp without soaking it but then again soaking it in warm water and taking it out to them warm might help them a little. 

Could she take a fecal sample in and just have a fecal run? If they have coccidia, that could be destroying their intestines and you would need DiMethox to take care of the coccidia. 

Certainly the milkweed could have done something. She does also really need to make sure they have plenty of water. Unfortunately, until she really finds the root cause of the weight loss, she may lose more goats.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jan 13, 2011)

Have they been tested for Johne's? Johne's is a goat wasting disease. If after a while of improved feed and they aren't gaining any weight back and fecals come back fine they I would Definately test for Johne's.


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## freemotion (Jan 13, 2011)

Also, she needs to get those minerals out to them full-time, and the hay needs to be fed free-choice and off the ground (clean.)  Is that happening?  They will never catch up until it is.

I go through a large square bale a day for 7 goats, often a flake or two more if it is very cold.  This is in addition to grain, beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, and veggies (not everyone gets all the extras) and everyone had minerals all the time.

She cannot afford to skimp right now.  She can get a bit more oomph from her grain by soaking/sprouting whole grains, which are often cheaper, too.


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## freemotion (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh, and you can keep the water from freezing longer by insulating the buckets within muck buckets or some larger vessel, packing hay, straw, or shavings around them, putting them in a protected spot, and filling them with warm water.  I do this all winter here in New England.  I even built a great insulated bucket when I had a horse, made with a muck bucket, a five gallon pail, a ring cut from a scrap of plywood to fit on top of the muck bucket and to suspend the five gallon pail in.  I filled the space between with packing peanuts and spray foam insulation.  Rarely freezes, never solid.  Too tall for short goats, though.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 13, 2011)

My girls really like their hot soaked shredded beet pulp in the morning.  It's fairly inexpensive and a little goes a long way once soaked.  When I get up in the morning I add 1 cup beet pulp to a bowl and add 2 cups very hot water and let it "cook" for a while.  

I pack it out with me and once the hay is fed and water bucket filled with warm water I mix up their morning feed and put the hot beet pulp over the top.  They start "freakin'" for it as soon as the beet pulp is poured on top.  They kinda snubbed it at first but once they gave it a chance they LOVED it.  I had a hard time getting them to take their minerals - once I started burying them under the beet pulp we had no more problems.  I do this again for them in the evening as well.  

All this to say, it's not a big expense (I think it was under $10.00 here for a 20 pound bag - it's dried, so 20 pounds is a very good size bag), it can help add some extra calories, and it can be a nice warm treat for them and may encourage them to eat more.  More nutrtion can be packed into it if she invests in a bag of Calf Manna too.  I think it was around $15 for a 25 pound bag here (totatally going from memory, that might not be right) and a little goes a long way with this too as the feed directions are 1/4-1/2 cup per head.  A hand full of BOSS thrown in will add some good extra fat.  This isn't going to fix her problems but might help get some calories into them to help buy some time while she gets to the source of the problem.

I don't know how practical it would be with a larger herd, but I pack out 3 one gallon jugs of very warm water for them each morning.  I break the ice out, swish and rinse with a little of the warm water and then add the warm water.  One of my does, in particular, waits for her warm water each morning - I think it's like morning cup of coffee. 

I hope your friend can get it figured out soon.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 14, 2011)

Call the vet!! Really...she may think "VET $$$$$"  But my vet here in NH charges $10.00 for me to bring a fecal sample down for him to test.  It maybe suprisingly cheaper than she thinks!!!  And it may make a world of differance for those goaties if she treats for the right worms. If its a wormload that causing this issue.    

Is that hay moldey at all...That will make them very sick as well besides whats in it.   

Water , water, water is extremely important.  If they are not getting enough water...well she just needs to get out there with buckets of warm water and make sure they do...sorry to sound crass!! But there rumens need water to function properly.  They will freeze to death if they dont get enough water up here!!!  The best time for her to bring it is right after they are feed thier feed. They will be thirsty and go for it!!!  Morning and evening is when I bring mine out...ya its a chore...but its worth it!! 

Also...has she taken a temp???  Anybody have high temps???  I would give them all a Vitiamin B shot for certain!! Thats stuff cheap enough. How bout copper issues?  They will lose condition with that for sure?  Hows their hair condition??  I just bolused all mine...they were definatley low on copper...its a mineral they must have!   

But really...I cant stress enough to get a fecal...it could be something simple and they are gonna waste and die on her...and Im certain she dos'nt want go thru that!!!        And if some are pregnant well...she may have aborted babies...and that is not good either.

Im sorry...I hope she can fiqure this out!!  The only other recomendation is to call your local Univeristy Extn...they offer alot of free testing and advice...I know for cetain UNH does for sure!!!

Good luck...I hope she can find the root of the issue soon!!!  Keep us posted please..Im curious to see what the issue is..if she fiqures it out??


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## PattySh (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, I went and checked out the goats today. Everyone had nice color on their eyelids/gums, no fever, and were all pretty active but thin (3 older does not too bad, younger ones thin).  She does have them in compatible groups. Two that had been seperated out a few weeks back  and fed more (the two skinniest)were  now gaining. At that time she did start feeding grain to everyone but in small quantities. With the haircoats I think she didn't really realize how thin they all were. I had her put hands on and told her you were not supposed to be able to feel between the ribs and I think that is when she realized how thin they were. I think the bad hay (it wasn't moldy but was mulch hay)and no grain  started them losing weight but the hay looks fine that she now has, but she was still feeding the same amt and  it was agreed that they aren't going to gain weight without upping portions. The two main  issues were frozen water and lack of groceries. We did pick out a grain with an anti coccidia ingredient just incase (chose a kid grain with more calories). I think it's agreed that warm water needs to be brought out twice a day and hay in front of them at all times plus a bit more grain for some of them. I went to the grain store with her today, explained the water issue with ruminants and we agreed the feed needed to be upped. My friend is going thru alot right now and is transporting her mominlaw to chemo most days of the week so I really think she didn't notice as she was basically throwing them food and water then herself crashing. I did chores with her teenage daughter and showed both how much feed it would take to put them gaining and it was a bit more than they've been feeding. I'll keep checking on them, but it wasn't as bad as I expected from yesterday's phone call. So I am pretty confident it's all under control.


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## freemotion (Jan 15, 2011)

You are a good friend.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 15, 2011)

She's very fortunate to have a friend like you - and so are her goats!!

Good job!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 15, 2011)

She is lucky to have someone supportive who can help and educate her without being critical.


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## PattySh (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks for all the support. I think the goats will be fine as long as her finances allow which is a part of the issue. She had made arrangements to have a credit line with a local farmer for hay and pick it up thru the winter and pay as she could and unfortunately he got "horse' people who would pay more for his hay and started selling her the crap stuff and selling his better hay for top dollar. His father would NEVER had done that as she used the same farm for years. We have already had the discussion that maybe she needs to scale back OR make a switch to meat goats and sell the babies for meat *before* winter  to make a profit to feed the others. She does have access to a  local man who would buy all meat kids produced and he pays well.She loves to milk and loves goats in general but  her family does not drink the milk nor will  they use goat milk in any way so she was basically feeding pigs with it whereas my family loves the milk and milk products. We discussed possibly switching to boar goats, having fewer does and maybe keeping a few of the current goats to milk to feed her pigs (she raises a couple per year to put in freezer).


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 15, 2011)

Great looking out for her Patty.  Sorry for what shes going thru...thats never easy.  Glad to hear they are gaining a bit!! 

Nice that you got the kids to pitch in for help her too!!!


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## PattySh (Jan 16, 2011)

I went over and did chores again with my friend. I took up a 200W tank heater  that fits a plastic water tub so she has a good size water supply that won't cost a fortune to run. It's in a large pen with everyone but the wether and the buck. It will make hauling water alot easier. They all look so much better after just a couple days on more feed. THEN the both of us snuck out and bought my daughter a 26th b'day present. (PIC  on the raising baby goat section!)


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## ksalvagno (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm glad things are improving for your friend.


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