# worms



## goat lady (Jul 20, 2010)

It seems that everyone is having trouble with worms and are deworming a lot as read daily on here. We have 3 separate goat pens/houses. Two of the pens are connected and we have them running together right now. The one goat house has a concrete floor and the other has a dirt floor. All of our goat houses have hay racks inside so they don't get wet cause we are in Florida and have lots of rain sometimes. I don't have grass on my property, so I always keep the hay racks full for the goats. Of course all goat owners know about waste under the hay racks. My husband and I rake out the pens each week of wasted hay and dispose of it. Hubby's question is on the pens with the dirt flooring. Should we do anything special to the ground to keep from worms growing and breeding?  We lost a 2 month old a about a month ago to hook worms. Well that is what the vet said. Long story there cause she went in for pink eye.  

We haven't seen worms in the ground. Hubby wheels in his head were just turning the one night and he asked me. We have had goats for about 18 months now and several kiddings on our little farm, but I still consider us newbies. I feel you can learn something new each day about something in our lives.  Thanks and Happy Tuesday!


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## cmjust0 (Jul 20, 2010)

goat lady said:
			
		

> I don't have grass on my property, so I always keep the hay racks full for the goats.
> ...
> My husband and I rake out the pens each week of wasted hay and dispose of it. Hubby's question is on the pens with the dirt flooring. Should we do anything special to the ground to keep from worms growing and breeding?


The barberpole worm is the most pathogenic of all...it's the one that keeps goat folks up at night.  The life cycle of the barberpole -- in a nutshell -- is as follows:

Adult (L4) barberpole worms attach to the lining of the goat's abomasum, suck blood, and produce a gazillion eggs.  The goat craps out the eggs in its poo.  The eggs hatch, and the larvae eat bacteria in the goat's poo.  The larvae molt a couple of times on the ground, shimmy up a blade of grass, and wait to be eaten.  Goat comes by, eats the grass and larvae, and the larvae make their way into the abomasum.  They molt again into the adult stage, where they attach to the lining of the goat's abomasum, suck blood, and produce a gazillion eggs.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

Note the 'shimmy up a blade of grass' part...  Drylots are inhospitable places for barberpole worms, as they don't grow or breed in the ground.  They absolutely REQUIRE grass to complete their life cycle.

If you put a barberpole infested goat on a drylot and feed it nothing but hay, it'll eventually "deworm" itself as the barberpoles die off naturally without the ability to to re-infect the goat.

Having said that, you should actually be in pretty good shape....so far as barberpoles are concerned, anyway.



> We lost a 2 month old a about a month ago to hook worms. Well that is what the vet said. Long story there cause she went in for pink eye.


When a vet says hook worms, they're almost always barberpole worms...it usually turns out to be the mark of a vet (or vet tech) who primarily deals with dogs and cats.  

How your kid got infested with barberpoles on a drylot is...well, I dunno how that would happen, really.  Especially at only 2mos of age.  I'd be more suspicious of coccidiosis -- acute or subclinical -- or perhaps bacterial enteritis..  Those problems are generally more frequent in drylots than goats on pasture.

Not to reopen any old wounds, but what were the little goat's symptoms before it passed?


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## glenolam (Jul 20, 2010)

Pretty good question as I have a dirt floor as well so I'd love to hear the responses.

I've owned goats as long as you, but thankfully haven't lost any.


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## goat lady (Jul 21, 2010)

She had pink eye, so we treated her and it seemed to have cleared up. One day after her last dose of meds. she seemed weak, so I called the lady I got her from to see if she had an ideas of what to do with her. She gave me the name of a vet that owns cows and works on goats. So we took her in to him. He said her pink eye came back and that she needed Vitamin B and calcuim shot. He did all that and gave her some fluids. Next day she would not even get up and walk around. Called vet again. he said said to give her pdeylite (childrens) with brown sugar three times a day. Did that and the following day was Sat. morning. She seemed worse and would not even stand. Could not even pick up her head. Took her back to the vet and he said she had hook worms. Never had a fever the whole time. Hubby was a little upset he did not do a full check on her the first day and we ended up spending $225 in two vet visits. I got a sympathy card from the vet.  He did give us a cow dewormer that is suppose to be really good. Said to deworm all the herd (12) and in two weeks deworm again. He gave me cydectin dewormer. 

Since then talking to some new goat people that I am finding in my area and several say they put corrid in the water for everyone daily.   I don't have any and the closest tractor supply is 45 minutes away so I am going to go pick some up and give it a try. I figure it can't hurt.    It was just heart breaking cause I sat out with that little girl doing all the vet said to do to keep her alive and it was my husband's goat. The only one out of the bunch he picked out and bottle fed. He had a class that weekend and when he got home I had to tell him that he had to bury his little girl.  Sorry this got long.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2010)

goat lady said:
			
		

> She had pink eye, so we treated her and it seemed to have cleared up. One day after her last dose of meds. she seemed weak, so I called *the lady I got her from* to see if she had an ideas of what to do with her.


Ah...so this was a fairly recent import.  Might make sense, then, how she could have come to be infested with worms despite being on a drylot -- she probably came with them.



> She gave me the name of a vet that owns cows and works on goats. So we took her in to him. He said her pink eye came back and that she needed Vitamin B and calcuim shot.


Uhhhhh....  

Pink eye is a bacterial infection.  If the vet thought she had a bacterial infection, he should have started her on antibiotics -- either injectable, or topical/ophthalmic.

I literally have NO CLUE why a vet would give a calcium shot for pinkeye..  Seems absolutely senseless to me..



> He did all that and gave her some fluids. Next day she would not even get up and walk around. Called vet again. he said said to give her pdeylite (childrens) with brown sugar three times a day. Did that and the following day was Sat. morning. She seemed worse and would not even stand. Could not even pick up her head. Took her back to the vet and he said she had hook worms. Never had a fever the whole time.


Apparently, hook worm eggs and haemonchus contortus (barberpole) eggs look very similar under a microscope.  I was once told that one of my goats had hookworms by a vet tech who was used to looking at dog poo..

EDIT:

Hookworm egg:






Barberpole egg:




Or, wait...was it the other way around?  

END EDIT

So, provided this diagnosis was the result of a fecal examination, my guess would be that the goat was actually shedding barberpole eggs -- not hookworm eggs.

Speculation, of course, but that's apparently the way these things tend to go.

Now, having said that...if the diagnosis was NOT based on results of a fecal exam, but was just the vet speculating, I'd actually say it could either have been barberpole OR coccidiosis that brought her down.



> Hubby was a little upset he did not do a full check on her the first day and we ended up spending $225 in two vet visits. I got a sympathy card from the vet.  He did give us a cow dewormer that is suppose to be really good. Said to deworm all the herd (12) and in two weeks deworm again. He gave me cydectin dewormer.


Cydectin is a good dewormer..  



> Since then talking to some new goat people that I am finding in my area and several say they put corrid in the water for everyone daily.   I don't have any and the closest tractor supply is 45 minutes away so I am going to go pick some up and give it a try. I figure it can't hurt.


CoRid only works in high doses.  Like, REALLY high doses.  And it's for coccidiosis, not worms. 

Frankly, there are better ways of preventing/treating coccidiosis than putting CoRid in the water...if you haven't left for TSC yet, I wouldn't bother.

Look into DiMethox for coccidiosis.  I've been using it at about 25mg/lb of bodyweight for 5 days on three week intervals with this year's crop of kids, and I've yet to see any coccidia-related issues.  





> It was just heart breaking cause I sat out with that little girl doing all the vet said to do to keep her alive and it was my husband's goat. The only one out of the bunch he picked out and bottle fed. He had a class that weekend and when he got home I had to tell him that he had to bury his little girl.  Sorry this got long.


That really sucks..  I hate to hear that.  

Given that she was an import, though, and not on your drylot for her entire life...worms would be a possibility.  Coccidiosis would also be a possibility, if she wasn't on a preventative program for it.  

I highly doubt you lost her to 'hookwoms' though, despite what the vet said.  

Again...really hate to hear that.


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## goat lady (Jul 21, 2010)

Look into DiMethox for coccidiosis.  I've been using it at about 25mg/lb of bodyweight for 5 days on three week intervals with this year's crop of kids, and I've yet to see any coccidia-related issues.


I have DiMethox %.  Someone new that I just met over the weekend that has had goats for years. Said to put that in the water for new ones untill the age of 2 months.   I have a buck that I am keeping for a new herd buck that was born on May 30th. He is still running with his momma, but I don't see him nursing unless it is early in the am. 

We thought we found a God send when we finally found a vet that would look at goats. Even thought he was 30 minutes from us. Since then I found another vet that is a horse vet, but she sees goats also and works up the street from our place. Once I can save up some money we are going to have out to just look at everyone and give us her opinion on how things are.  I won't be heading to Tractor supply till the weekend. I get lost easily and so my husband does the driving. I am blonde. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in. 

Speaking of blonde..... there are just so much out there and everyone has their own opinions and ideas on how things should be done.  I look at it as trial and error most of the time, but when one doesn't make it. It is hard. My adult children are in their 20's and I am not asking for grandkids, but goat kids.  They thought their father and I had lost our minds when we got the first two goats, but being self employed and a construction business in the state of Florida in this economy these days it is very relaxing to go out and just take care of our goats and chickens.  We have had 4 kiddings on our little farm and I have been lucky to have sold all of them, but the one we wanted to keep.  
Thanks CM, and have a GREAT afternoon.


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## ()relics (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok my take...Too much sulfadimethoxine...I only like to use it a when a kid is REALLY in bad shape.  All my does that are in late pregnancy stages are fed a pelleted feed .  It is a pelleted feed that is medicated with either, rumensin or decox.  This builds up a low level of resistance against cocci that is passed to the kid as soon as it begins to nurse.  I begin offering a creep feed to my kids at a couple of weeks old.  Again medicated with a coccidiostat, again to build up a resistance.  These medicated pellets will not "cure" a full blown case of coccidiosis but will help prevent the build up of harmful amounts of the organisms...Occasionally a kid will not be able to fight off the cocci and then when stressed will show the results ie: scouring,lethargic,off feed,bloatlike symptoms.  The Immediate action is to medicate with a sulfa product.  When administered properly results will be seen almost right away....I use a 12.5% sulfadimethoxine at the dose rate of 1cc per 5# for 5 days.  This insures, for me anyway, that when I give this drug at this dosage the results will be Immediate....I am afraid if you dosed every goat for multiple times a resistance could be built up in your herd and eventually you would be looking for another answer to your goat kids dying....
       I would agree hookworms weren't the killer...I would guess cocci build up due to the stress of a new home, weaning(?), and some sort of low grade infection, pinkeye....
....FYI everyone lose a goat kid once in awhile. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do fast enough....
...FYI AGAIN  everyone has an opinion....some base their opinions/posts/knowledge on something they have read, while others _Try_ to base these things on personal experience....YOU have to decide what is best for your animal.....JMO


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Ok my take...Too much sulfadimethoxine...I only like to use it a when a kid is REALLY in bad shape.  All my does that are in late pregnancy stages are fed a pelleted feed .  It is a pelleted feed that is medicated with either, rumensin or decox.  This builds up a low level of resistance against cocci that is passed to the kid as soon as it begins to nurse.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this..  So far as I know, there's no milk withdrawal period on either Deccox or Rumensin,  because they're both undetectable in milk even at REALLY high doses..

In other words, the kid's not getting any kind of coccidiostatic medication from the milk.

Having said that, if you're talking about the mama passing along 'coccidia antibodies' in the colostrum...not really sure about that either, considering the immune response to an invader like coccidia or worms is generally TH1-mediated.  A cellular response, in other words -- not a TH2/humoral response, as though the doe's been _vaccinated_.

That's my understanding of the whole situation, anyway.



> I begin offering a creep feed to my kids at a couple of weeks old.  Again medicated with a coccidiostat, again to build up a resistance.


I'm speculating, but that's probably the primary reason you don't see much touble with coccidia -- medicated feed, started early.  

Our kids this year came late, and we didn't push them on feed at all..  They got milk and pasture, and we did the DiMethox prevention regimen of dosing every 3wks..

So far, so good..  



> These medicated pellets will not "cure" a full blown case of coccidiosis but will help prevent the build up of harmful amounts of the organisms...Occasionally a kid will not be able to fight off the cocci and then when stressed will show the results ie: scouring,lethargic,off feed,bloatlike symptoms.  The Immediate action is to medicate with a sulfa product.  When administered properly results will be seen almost right away....I use a 12.5% sulfadimethoxine at the dose rate of 1cc per 5# for 5 days.  This insures, for me anyway, that when I give this drug at this dosage the results will be Immediate....I am afraid if you dosed every goat for multiple times a resistance could be built up in your herd and eventually you would be looking for another answer to your goat kids dying....


As for the sulfa-resistant coccidia...the same could be said for deccox/rumensin-resistant coccidia on account of it being present in low levels in the feed.

Indeed, that's pretty much already happened with Amprolium -- "CoRid."



> I would agree hookworms weren't the killer...I would guess cocci build up due to the stress of a new home, weaning(?), and some sort of low grade infection, pinkeye....


Sounds right...and the more I thought about it, the more I wondered if the vet didn't just say "Hookworms" because there was haemonchus contortus eggs _present_ in the fecal sample..  Not necessarily in huge numbers -- just _present_.

Kinda like how the tech told me my goats had coccidiosis because there were coccidia oocysts _present_ in the fecal sample..

Who knows..  



> ....FYI everyone lose a goat kid once in awhile. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do fast enough....


Agreed x10.  



> ...FYI AGAIN  everyone has an opinion....some base their opinions/posts/knowledge on something they have read, while others _Try_ to base these things on personal experience....YOU have to decide what is best for your animal.....JMO


You forgot a category...those who read a lot _and_ have experience, and who use their experience to inform their reading and vice versa.


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## ()relics (Jul 21, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> ()relics said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok but give at least give me the fact that the doe would shed less coccidia into its potential kidding area....just so I can believe that feeding this "High Dollar Feed" is worth the extra money...


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## Roll farms (Jul 21, 2010)

Here's my take on it....since you asked....

(My understanding is that) Adults are / get 'immune' to cocci, meaning they 'have it' in their system but (unless stressed / sick) usually they don't get sick from it, b/c they build up immunity to it over time.

Giving medicated feed to adults (to me) seems a waste, since they fight it off on their own / keep it in check / pass less eggs anyway.

(However, I see your logic, Relics, that feeding it to preggos / nursing dams *might* reduce the amount of eggs shed around kids...) 

And like CM said, if using DiMethox, corid, or Sulmet is going to build resistance, then why wouldn't repeated low-level doses of Deccox and Rumensin do the same???  
I've read reports in Goat Rancher that show some feed mixers are upping the amount of Deccox they use b/c it's not as effective as it once was at the previously used levels.

My theory for using it every 21 days is, I'm constantly killing it off before it has a chance to make them sick, so they're not passing the oocysts / spreading the funk around as much as they would untreated.

I don't treat for a full 21 days (like the 'treatment'), I'm doing the 'prevention' dose....from what I understand, it doesn't kill it all off, just keeps it from reproducing / getting to the point of illness.

I can't *prove* any of this w/ charts, data, or anything fancy....

All I know is that I lost kids my first year w / boers, so the second year I fed medicated feed and kids still got sick, so the rest of that year the vet had me use SMZ tablets, which worked, but was a pain (she had me crushing it / mixing w/ applesauce, and drenching them).....after that I read up and I started the DiMethox rotation and...haven't had a kid get symptomatic / sick since then....and fecals show few oocysts.

(The vet had told me they couldn't eat enough of the medicated feed as kids to get the medicine up to therapeutic levels when I asked why they were still getting sick, even though I was giving them the 'good' feed.)

It (medicated feed) will prevent it *if* they're 'clean' (not already carrying a heavy load) and they eat enough to keep the meds at effective levels.

But it won't 'cure' it or 'treat' it.

I've never tried a feed w/ rumensin (none around here / cheap enough for me to be willing to try it) but the deccox feed doesn't do it for me, alone.

This is either my 4th or 5th year using DiMeth every 21 days on kids and...at 90, 85, 76, and 71# for 6-7 mo. old doelings, I'm thrilled.

So while it may not be scientific, it's proof enough (for me) that so far, it's working.  I'm not saying it always will or that it's the 'right' thing necessarily...but for our farm, and for now...if it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 22, 2010)

FWIW, I've been breeding and raising sheep for what I consider to be a good while now (started when I was 10, I'm now 29).  I've feed medicated feeds (with both Rumensin and Bovatec (Lasaolicid)) and sometimes I fed non-medicated feeds.  I've only had ONE case of Coccidia that I've ever had to treat (of my own personal sheep).  I have treated sheep once or twice with Corid at one particular farm where I worked.  I also treated calves once or twice because we *suspected* coccidia.  Nobody I know (or I worked for) ever treats every 21 days or on a regular basis at all.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Ok but give at least give me the fact that the doe would shed less coccidia into its potential kidding area....just so I can believe that feeding this "High Dollar Feed" is worth the extra money...


I feed medicated grain to adults...not because I'm worried about them getting coccidiosis, but because it's the 2nd cheapest ($7.50) pelleted feed I can get, and they'll actually eat it.  

Unlike Purina or 'Dumor', both of which are expensive and apparently not very tasty to my goats...or Kent, which we all like, but which is like $12/bag.

Our bucks get alfalfa pellets with no medication.  They're big boys now, so I don't worry about coccidiosis with them.  No problems so far.

Honestly, if I could get an unmedicated version of the $7.50/bag pellets, I'd LOVE it...but they don't make it.  


The reason we did a coccidia preventative this year is because we kidded late, and because I didn't necessarily wanna push them on grain when they were teeny tiny.  Plus, it just seemed easier this way than having to worry about it..


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## goat lady (Jul 24, 2010)

A couple of people put the dimethox in the water so they are drinking it. Hubby  was wondering.... if you are giving fresh water then is that not a waste of meds and money?    We have gotten rain from TS Bonnie so I am still working on cleaning out the three pens we have. When it rains they go in there and do their business. :/  I have a couple of adult does that won't come out in the rain not even to eat their grain.


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## Roll farms (Jul 24, 2010)

IMHO, putting meds in water is wasteful, not only because they generally don't drink every drop, (so some is wasted) but some goats drink more than others, so there's no way to guarantee they get 'enough' of the medicine...or, they won't drink as much b/c it tastes funny...therefore they get underdosed, so it was all a waste.

Yes, it's easier on the producer...but when people tell me, "I tried DiMethox (or another med) in the water and it didn't work." ...I already know why.


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