# Choosing a goat breed, ND vs. Kinder



## chanceosunshine (Aug 12, 2020)

After studying *most* of the goat breeds I decided that I "definitely" wanted ND goats, mainly for their high butterfat content and smaller size. THEN I heard about Kinders, which also are supposed to have a high butterfat content, but have the added benefit of being better for meat as well. My original plan would be to have ND for milk and something (Boer or Kiko, most likely) for meat. Having only one breed for both seems better to me though.

So, first off, does anyone have experience with ND and Kinder and could you share what you've found to be true about the two breeds, especially how the milk compares?

Secondly, forgive my ignorance here, but how consistent is the Kinder breed at the is point? I know they are a relatively new breed and I've read on their association how to breed a Pygmy and a Nubian to create a Kinder. Once you have an F1, how do they continue to breed for consistency and what generation would you want to have the most consistent qualities. My fear is that when reading about Kinders, it says things like, "TEND to have high butterfat." I know there are variables in all breeds, but I want to avoid a goat crap shoot.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 12, 2020)

chanceosunshine said:


> My fear is that when reading about Kinders, it says things like, "TEND to have high butterfat." I know there are variables in all breeds, but I want to avoid a goat crap shoot.



This is a little bit true with most breeds -- even purebreds have variants.  But I do understand what you are asking. Genetics being what they are it isn't always easy to develop a consistent hybrid.    What you see is what you get, in that animal.  Offspring?  Not always.

@frustratedearthmother  has been working with Kiko, Nubian & Pygmy, so I believe she has some Kinder.   Hopefully, enough milking of those crosses and pures to be able to give some insight and comparison. 

Here, I milk but stick to dairy.   Raise meat types for meat....yes, I have crossed Boer bucks with Nubian does and gotten some really nice results.   Boer do have a higher fat milk than the usual dairy....but, not the length of lactation.   Those chunky Boer kids take a lot of nourishment.     Most Boer does are not kept for milking.

Others will chime in....give it a day or two.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 12, 2020)

I previously had ND's, and there's a reason for that.  A ton of people love the breed, but they just weren't for me.  I milk Kinders more than Nubians these days.  In fact, I'm phasing out the Nubians.  I have several Kinder's who will give almost a gallon a day.  Their milk is sweet, creamy and totally delicious.  They are maybe 2/3rds the size of a Nubian and eat less feed.  They are also more parasite resistant than my Nubians.  I sell quite a few wethers and/or bucklings for meat also.  Never had a complaint.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 12, 2020)

I have NDs and I have fallen in love with them. They are such sweetie pies and just want to be loved. DO NOT EVER read the”this is why you should not get NDs” one because they are stupid, and 2 no things are real. Like NDs are loud! Like all goats are loud! But anyways, I think you would really enjoy NDs.

Another things is. The babies are so small and cute! I have two 3 month old wethers and they are a bundle of joy.

NDs are super cool and they are super easy to handle and care for, if you need any tips or help, defiantly PM an Goat Advice thing with me and some people. I will defiantly give you some really good tips and tricks!

Make sure to have Baking soda, minerals, clean water, hay, pasture, shelter, and straw. Also shots, copper bullets, and a bullet gun! Have fun with goats!


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## chanceosunshine (Aug 13, 2020)

tha


Mini Horses said:


> This is a little bit true with most breeds -- even purebreds have variants.  But I do understand what you are asking. Genetics being what they are it isn't always easy to develop a consistent hybrid.    What you see is what you get, in that animal.  Offspring?  Not always.
> 
> @frustratedearthmother  has been working with Kiko, Nubian & Pygmy, so I believe she has some Kinder.   Hopefully, enough milking of those crosses and pures to be able to give some insight and comparison.
> 
> ...





Mini Horses said:


> This is a little bit true with most breeds -- even purebreds have variants.  But I do understand what you are asking. Genetics being what they are it isn't always easy to develop a consistent hybrid.    What you see is what you get, in that animal.  Offspring?  Not always.
> 
> @frustratedearthmother  has been working with Kiko, Nubian & Pygmy, so I believe she has some Kinder.   Hopefully, enough milking of those crosses and pures to be able to give some insight and comparison.
> 
> ...



I think the Boer are just beautiful animals. I love their "beefy" look. I almost don't want to use them for meat because they appeal to me so much. (I have a thing for cows too, just think they're amazing to look at...I'm odd.) Interesting to know what high butterfat they have but I guess it does make perfect sense.


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## chanceosunshine (Aug 13, 2020)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I previously had ND's, and there's a reason for that.  A ton of people love the breed, but they just weren't for me.  I milk Kinders more than Nubians these days.  In fact, I'm phasing out the Nubians.  I have several Kinder's who will give almost a gallon a day.  Their milk is sweet, creamy and totally delicious.  They are maybe 2/3rds the size of a Nubian and eat less feed.  They are also more parasite resistant than my Nubians.  I sell quite a few wethers and/or bucklings for meat also.  Never had a complaint.


Wow. Ok, can I pick your brain??
Why, out of curiosity, are they not for you?
Do you think the milk is better from the Kinder? Do you think they butterfat ratio is close between them?
Do you find that your Kinders are pretty consistent from generation to generation?

I can't find anything online really comparing the two breeds, so I'm excited to hear from someone with experience with both.


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## chanceosunshine (Aug 13, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> I have NDs and I have fallen in love with them. They are such sweetie pies and just want to be loved. DO NOT EVER read the”this is why you should not get NDs” one because they are stupid, and 2 no things are real. Like NDs are loud! Like all goats are loud! But anyways, I think you would really enjoy NDs.
> 
> Another things is. The babies are so small and cute! I have two 3 month old wethers and they are a bundle of joy.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the input. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to love my dairy goats no matter what breed we go with. I tried to talk myself out of ND to begin with because I didn't want to be lured in by their cuteness, but when I read about the quality of their milk I happily changed my tune.

It's the simplicity of concentrating on one breed for milk and meat that really appeals to me and has me considering the Kinder, which are also pretty stinking cute.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 13, 2020)

chanceosunshine said:


> Wow. Ok, can I pick your brain??
> Why, out of curiosity, are they not for you?
> Do you think the milk is better from the Kinder? Do you think they butterfat ratio is close between them?
> Do you find that your Kinders are pretty consistent from generation to generation?
> ...


I only had a few  ND's.  One was awesome, sweet and lovely.  The others were straight up demanding, psycho goats from hell, lol!  They wanted life on their terms and I don't work that way.  (Not knocking the entire breed because I know there are good ones out there.)

For me the Kinders just work.  I can get more milk from one Kinder milking once a day compared to milking a ND twice a day.   Kinder to kinder breeding's breed true.  I have one buck and he throws consistent babies in size and shape and also in milkabilty.  His bucklings/wethers make good meat animals.  

As a bit of background - I formerly raised and showed Pygmy goats.  I also milked them occasionally and a lot of people don't know how awesome Pygmy milk is.  It's like drinking a melted milkshake it's so rich.  Nubian milk is pretty awesome too.  Mixing the two makes an unbeatable milk.  ND milk is good - but Kinder milk (in my opinion) is equal or better.

I'm experimenting with crossing the Kinder's with Kiko, but I'm discovering that for milk production I still prefer the Kinder.

My sample group was small, so I can't guarantee you'll have the same experience.  But, I love my girls and they will always have a place here.


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## B&B Happy goats (Aug 13, 2020)

I have the ND and have had the nubians....love the Nigerians for many reasons but  the kinders  sound like they will give you more meat....I processed one ND wether last month and was very disappointed  with the amount of meat on him.
If you can find kinders in  your area at a decent price, that would be a great choice. ....
Good luck to you with whatever breed you choose, goats are alot of fun


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## rachels.haven (Aug 13, 2020)

A lot of my dwarves have temperament issues that have proven to be inherited. They can be harder to handle than standard sized goats despite being half sized. It's like they are a lot more goat, or goat concentrate in a tiny package. A lot of my standard goat friends don't like showing them for their dwarf loving friends for this reason. They also don't tend to milk much or as long. The breed needs more development for milking character and will to milk, imo. A few of my dwarves are more docile, but more dwarves I encounter, the more I realize they are the exception and not the rule. They do sell for more though. One of my older goat friends when I was just starting recommended kinders because they were "calmer". I disregarded this, and started dwarfing, discovered I hate them, yet can't give them up because of the rich milk.

So I offer myself up as a cautionary tale and suggest you go play with some kinders or mini nubes and see how you like their level of "fire". For me, a good goat wants to please you, or at least work with your for grain in exchange for being emptied milk. The dwarves tend to want it their way-grain always, no milking, lots of butting and biting. Brats.

Pick individuals carefully if you go dwarf.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 13, 2020)

chanceosunshine said:


> I think the Boer are just beautiful animals. I love their "beefy" look. I almost don't want to use them for meat because they appeal to me so much.



Totally agree!!  And, for all their size, they are calm if you just work with them frequently from day one.   My bucks here all very tame and mannered.  Had to be, at 275-325#, you want manners!   I tied mine to a fence and trimmed hooves, no issues....they came when called.

I'll admit -- I never sent one to butcher!   Yeah, when I had them most were sold for breeders  Back then, a new animal.   It was a time when you did  "hoorah" for every buckling born!       I had a waiting list -- but, great animals --fullbloods and registered.

Now, I would send one to butcher -- mostly, I will keep about 6 does & 1 buck, selling most of the kids to meat market.  It's where things are now.

By the way -- my Saanen does are very quiet.  Really soft spoken.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Aug 13, 2020)

Hi!!  See my avatar...that’s a Kinder!!  Yep!!  That’s my Busty!!  Go for the Kinder!!  They are the best!!  First...no one has them!!  Next..ok, let’s be real...yes, NDs are adorable..I have the, too everyone...but, we all know, they can be difficult to milk, tiny teats, they can be...a tad...prissy?  I love my ND..in fact, my buck is ND!!  Because I have 4 breeds..and I’m small..and Kinder are, kinda big....if I had kept my gorgeous wether a buck...he’d have only been able to breed with his mom...and I didn’t want two bucks.  But, now I wish I’d have kept him as a buck..😩. He’s agouti!!  Gorgeous!!  She actually had 2 Agouti...if she pops out another agouti..I’m keeping it...period.  Her doeling is her mini me....❤️  

ok, I milk my ND...FF..very difficult to milk, I even made a thread about it,..great tasting milk though.  I milk my mini oberhasli...super easy to milk...stands great...FF...more milk than my ND...now...let’s talk my Kinder.....ok...this was her F3..... but, that girl gave me tooooo much milk for he4 triplets...we had to put her in the stand to nurse, because she’d make too much milk and get engorged...we’d milk a bit off, then the kids could nurse.

plus, she makes a heavy, frothy cream...ohhh, makes the best ice cream...most of the time I keep Busty’s milk separate...because it tastes the best.

Kinders are a bigger goat.....she is maybe 70lbs?  She’s my biggest goat.  But, hands down, I love her temperament....she’s my herd leader. I’ve had other goats..actually, I had one, that came with her...I sold her..because she became a trouble maker....she was a Pygmy....she didn’t like my ND....

I tried Alpine...Alpine/Nubian, Sanaan....all too big for me.  
I’ll show you a picture of Bustys bag..I’m drying her off right now...this is her bag, while drying it off....and I’ll show you pictures of her and the two kids I still have.  I’ll also show you my 3 ND..with blue eyes❤️   I love all my goats...but, I’m a sucker for my kinders.....


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## chanceosunshine (Aug 13, 2020)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I only had a few  ND's.  One was awesome, sweet and lovely.  The others were straight up demanding, psycho goats from hell, lol!  They wanted life on their terms and I don't work that way.  (Not knocking the entire breed because I know there are good ones out there.)
> 
> For me the Kinders just work.  I can get more milk from one Kinder milking once a day compared to milking a ND twice a day.   Kinder to kinder breeding's breed true.  I have one buck and he throws consistent babies in size and shape and also in milkabilty.  His bucklings/wethers make good meat animals.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. Love the psycho goat analogy. Lol

I’m leaning heavily towards the Kinder breed at this point. I can barely wait to get my dairy goats!

ETA: I’m so glad to hear that they have bred true for you! That’s one of my bigger concerns.


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## chanceosunshine (Aug 13, 2020)

Thank you, duckfarmer! It’s really helpful to hear from real people about the differences. 
You make a great case for the Kinders!
Your goats are lovely!


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