# UPDATE ON THE CREEK



## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 1, 2018)

G’day and welcome, I seem to remember somewhere in the past there was a thread on “The Creek “and its repair.

The fact is that it is 18 months since we had any worthwhile rain on the place, but in the last month we have had about an inch, which has done nothing for our stock water reserves, but as the photos show the response from our management and restoration of the creek itself has been quite encouraging.

The lack of recognition of our efforts along with a string of “patronizing comments” from mostly academics and experts who for some reason cannot grasp the concept and why it works but in the same breath cannot fail to “acknowledge “ the results in front of them.

“Henry” is our new ranch hand, he is a CASE XC 1.7 ton excavator and one of his main tasks is to replicate the original concept further up the catchment which feeds into our restored creek line. As I see it we hold way more water in the substrate than we do in our dams (ponds) and the levels in these storages are in fact “controlled” by the pressure of water moving through the landscape from the upper catchments. I have over the years observed in large rain events that a given dam will fill to overflowing only to have it drain away to the “rising/falling “ water table which is controlled by the upland volume and pressure. So Henry’s task will be to install new underground weirs at the toe of the rising land with a slight difference from the first one, where the sheet of gal iron was laid horizontally in the new ones it will be vertical because Henry can “dig” two meters in depth and this should hold back a sizable amount of water and slow the discharge into the creek. His other tasks will be to assist in habitat destruction of rabbits and foxes which by regulation we now have to undertake on an ongoing basis.

At this point a lot of this concept is assumptions based on the past performance of the first one. Of course I will record in text and pic’s how it all progresses.

The other thing we are about to undertake (approval permitting) is a bore to ensure that at all times we have stock water available because as everyone keeps telling us we are going to get “drier not wetter” into the future

I am really looking forward to the next phase, once I have got familiar with “Henry”....T.O.R.


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## Latestarter (Nov 1, 2018)

I'll be following this... I have a young boy's fascination with heavy equipment... I have "Henry envy" at the moment . I hope your plan achieves the desired effect.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 2, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> The other thing we are about to undertake (approval permitting) is a bore to ensure that at all times we have stock water available because as everyone keeps telling us we are going to get “drier not wetter” into the future


 Water management is paramount in our ever-changing climates. I'll be following this thread to watch your efforts.

Over here ,Wales, generally known for rain, mist and a bit more rain, we had a summer drought which left us with scorched pastures and no winter feed cut. I know that half a world away you have suffered much worse conditions.
The drought broke here in August and we have had a fair amount  of rain since. Enough to cut for silage and to have our familiar green back, but a real concern at the time.

We are not on mains water, relying on a spring which comes from a couple of miles away.The source is on a neighbour's land (and related to some old agreement),and involves the water going uphill for a stretch to reach us. Over the summer a fair number of folk on spring water lost their sources. Ours limped on through.....but we were ultra-cautious with the water and expected it to give out at any time.Neighbour was having to go to a local river source to fill water containers for his cows as their stream dried up. It  meant we decided to look at a different supply for water, and contacted a small (and, due to the demand, very busy) bore hole company. Man with divining rods came and found underground water....fascinating stuff.....I could feel the pull of the rods over the designated areas when handed the rods. Drilling went down to 240 feet and took about 36 hours to complete through sandstone bedrock.The water was then sent for analysis and apart from being 'a bit hard' was found to be perfectly fit to drink (via our particle and u.v filter already in place). We now have a dual water supply. Oh and a sexy red version of Henry did quite a bit of channel digging about the place. He had an amazing (if not rather dangerous) driver who used the bucket to lever Red Henry up onto very steep slopes to lay channels......pursued, as always, by Border Collie who will try to herd anything. Red Henry driver had several play sessions with the dog .....quite hilarious...nearly 12 year-old Collie versus Red Henry.

 The bore hole has just a manhole cover over it and  leads to a pressure vessel in the outhouse which supplies the water to the house and some of the water troughs. A 'comfort blanket' for some years to come with these changing climates.

So....I look forward to reading your water management story.


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## Latestarter (Nov 2, 2018)

Over here, an outhouse is a little different than an out building... It's used to eliminate bodily waste when no indoor plumbing exists...   I don't think I'd want to drink anything that went through an outhouse at any point...  Glad that you now have a second and reliable water source SS. I would continue to use the historical water source though for fear of loosing it through non use... No clue how water rights work over there.


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> The other thing we are about to undertake (approval permitting) is a bore to ensure that at all times we have stock water available


Is that Australian speak for a water well?

Yes, the substrate usually holds more water than the surface and topsoil....and move more (plus from and across longer distances) because there usually isn't anything down there to prevent movement.

Nice machine. One of my friends has one about that size and he does a lot with it.
(You do realize in the picture, that you are traveling (or at least facing) reverse?)


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## Sheepshape (Nov 2, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> an outhouse is a little different than an out building


 Oh crikey......no our little projection of a building contains only garden tools, general tat like half-finished tins of paint which will never be used, a lawnmower and the dog's day bed. It doesn't have an outside 'privvy' 'thunder box' or anything of that type.

The 'water from over the hill' has been provided via an historical agreement for which there is a contract written into the house deeds, so it would be foolish for us to lose this.


Latestarter said:


> No clue how water rights work over there.


 I have no idea, either, but certain things can lapse due to lack of usage, so always best to use. An example of this are so called "Rights of Way" which can go across private land and can be lost if folk don't use them. Ramblers groups aim for little used ones just to maintain this privilege. Incidentally our local signs say "LLwybr cyhoeddus", so a knowledge of local language helps! There are also strange rights which mean that if somebody puts their livestock onto your land and you don't remove them, then they can claim grazing rights after a certain period of time. Thankfully we don't have that kind of neighbour!


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2018)

Sheepshape said:


> "LLwybr cyhoeddus"


Brings back bad memories of an ex...originally from Cardiff, tho she didn't pronounce it that way. More like 'Kay-ertaf'.

Thankfully,  the rest of the world realized the frequent use of vowels was not evil after all.


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2018)

Sheepshape said:


> I have no idea, either, but certain things can lapse due to lack of usage, so always best to use. An example of this are so called "Rights of Way" which can go across private land and can be lost if folk don't use them. Ramblers groups aim for little used ones just to maintain this privilege. Incidentally our local signs say "LLwybr cyhoeddus", so a knowledge of local language helps! There are also strange rights which mean that if somebody puts their livestock onto your land and you don't remove them, then they can claim grazing rights after a certain period of time. Thankfully we don't have that kind of neighbour!


Glad I live in Texas.
'Rule of capture'.
Taking another's grass=theft of resources and more than likely, legal and or  physical loss of the trespassing livestock after the sheriff's dept sends them to auction...unless it happens in one of the open range counties.


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## Mike CHS (Nov 2, 2018)

Straying animals here won't be seized (at least not the first time) but the stock's owners can be charged with a misdemeanor.  It gets stiffer penalties for repeat offenders.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 2, 2018)

If there's folk like that in the neighbourhood just put out the word that your sheep had resistant scab and that's why you removed them from that particular pasture.


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2018)

It's left up to the landowner much of the time. The deputies generally won't have a trailer with them when you call them out, and the leo will ask if they can stay where they are till the stock owner can be found or until the deputies can get back out with a trailer. The deputies have better things to do and more to do than drive around the county trying to find out who might be missing an animal so they leave that up to someone in the office, as the county keeps a rough list of who is a stock owner and where they are located. 'rough' meaning i complete, not updated very well, and lots of the ph #s are no good any more since so many dropped landlines and just use cell phones. 

Either way, it's against the law for the landowner to find an estray and NOT call the sheriff's dept, and he sure can't keep it on his own property  or haul it to sale.

I have more than once,seen entire herds seized when a stockowner couldn't show the deputies he had adequate fencing to hold them in.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 2, 2018)

greybeard said:


> Is that Australian speak for a water well?
> 
> Yes, the substrate usually holds more water than the surface and topsoil....and move more (plus from and across longer distances) because there usually isn't anything down there to prevent movement.
> 
> ...



G'day and well spotted GB.I had in fact just reversed it out of the shed and asked Jenny to get a pic...T.O.R


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 3, 2018)

greybeard said:


> Is that Australian speak for a water well?
> 
> Yes, the substrate usually holds more water than the surface and topsoil....and move more (plus from and across longer distances) because there usually isn't anything down there to prevent movement.
> 
> ...



G'day GB, not really a bore in our case will be a drill head of about 6 ins and it will be cased in steel pipe until it hits bed-rock.I'm hoping it will not be that deep and at about 300 ft their should be enough "ground pressure" to establish a reasonable flow.BTW its costing $150.00 per mt to construct...T.O.R.


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## greybeard (Nov 6, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day GB, not really. a bore in our case will be a drill head of about 6 ins and it will be cased in steel pipe until it hits bed-rock.


That, is what we call a water well here in the US. 
Most use PVC pipe nowadays tho.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 6, 2018)

Pretty sure we'd call your new potential water supply a well, too.

Our bore hole is 80 metres down and has a small pump right down at the bottom. The pump has a cable fixed to it such that it can be pulled up if it malfunctions (which I'm told is rare). The water then goes to a pressure vessel to feed the house and the water troughs. As we have the original supply from a spring still intact the two supplies run into our outhouse (lean-to). Here we can have either spring or bore hole water on by adjusting the in-line  taps..


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## greybeard (Nov 6, 2018)

What most wells look like here. (far left of the picture, with the diagonal pipe leading to a pressure tank....the only picture I seem to have of it)


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 11, 2018)

G'day and thank you for defining the difference.In our local village (which was settled in the mid 1800's) every house was required to "dig a well" for fresh household water,it was about 4 feet across and generally lined with local bricks.You dropped a bucket down it and that was your household supply.

You are right in that in the US this is described as a water well.Today I got all of the rules applying to the sinking of a bore on our place and they are clearly stated out as to what we can and cannot do with the water from the bore.The location will be logged on a map at Water NSW and I think I can expect to have it inspected "without warning" to make sure we are not contravening any of there rules as to its use.It is possible that we will need a submersible pump to draw enough pressure (I think we need about 800 gallons an hour to fill a nearby stock water point )as we are limited to a 8 inch steel case for the lift....T.O.R.


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## greybeard (Nov 11, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> It is possible that we will need a submersible pump to draw enough pressure (I think we need about 800 gallons an hour to fill a nearby stock water point )as we are limited to a 3 to 4 inch steel case for the lift.


Usually depends on how deep the well is, where the water table within the casing comes to, and how fast you need to fill the tank (flow vs pressure)

Most people in my area now use a sub pump, including myself. My casing is 4" but production pipe (pipe that the pump hangs from) is 2" diameter 185' total depth IIRC with the production sand being 145' thru 185' thick. 

You shouldn't have any problem getting 800gph out of a 1-1/2 hp sub pump depending on your total dynamic head.


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## Baymule (Nov 11, 2018)

Outhouse.... @Latestarter explained that....we will cover the well with a wellhouse, generally to keep things from freezing up. It does make things difficult if major work needs to be done to the well.


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## Baymule (Nov 11, 2018)

@The Old Ram-Australia are you building berms or terraces to catch the water as it runs downhill, thus containing more water on your property versus letting it all run downhill and draining away? 

In the 1930's as many already know, there was The Great Depression. The economy tanked all around the world. The government here formed the Civilian Conservation Corps made up of young men age 18-25. They were paid $30 a month, most of which was sent home to their families. The men were given room and board and did a remarkable amount of work. Here in my area, they built terraces to slow the flow of water downhill and help prevent erosion. Those terraces are still here, and can be seen in the pastures. They also planted trees, built schools, national park buildings and much more, from readily found materials in that local area. Many of these buildings are still in use.

We have one of those terraces here on our own property and maintain it. Our driveway crosses it, so it was washing out. We built it up with some clay and covered it with wood chip mulch which stopped the erosion. 

When we were looking for a place to buy, we found the headquarters buildings for the CCC. It was fascinating, we loved the history and stone buildings, but they were in such disrepair that we would have had to spent many times the asking price to restore them. Sadly, we passed on it. I took pictures if anyone would like to see them. I looked up what I could find on it and the CCC was here starting in 1934 for several years thereafter..

https://texasalmanac.com/topics/history/civilian-conservation-corps-texas


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 11, 2018)

G'day, you may have noticed I have corrected a couple of things in my last post.The local village was settled in the mid 1800's,otherwise we would have been here before Cpt Cook,I also checked our approval and we can use up to an 8 inch case for the bore.

Down here BM we call these "swales" and yes we have quite a few they were installed about 30 odd years ago as near as I can tell to try yo repair "raging" erosion on our sloping ground.But subsequent owners did not manage them (at all)) and so by the time we purchased the farm they were in fact ineffective.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 13, 2018)

Is that how your land is looking now TOR (largely brown and dry)? If so, I hope you get more rain soon.
I live high amongst the Welsh hills (just short of technically being mountains) where water usually gushes down in torrents. Last summer we had an uncharacteristic drought. Anyway, we have thin and sandy topsoil which is subject to constant erosion and is not highly water retentive.
Most of us in 'these here hills' live on a flattened out (terraced) bit of hillside. We have planted lots of saplings and have reinstated hedgerows as a way of keeping the soil stable. The added bonus is that the diversity of birds and wildlife is improved as well as the tree copses providing shelter for the animals both summer and winter.
Our bore hole has a 4 inch pipe.....is working nicely and produces about 7 gallons/minute which is more than enough for our usage.
What is your local village like TOR?. I love local history. My local village is about 2 miles away and consists of a farm, a church, an artisan bakery and about 8 other houses. It was settled in very early times (maybe pre-Roman) and the history of the church is fascinating. looks medieval, but said to date from 11th century. It is the church of the local saint who lived in a cave on the local hill where he had his head lopped off by an enemy. He is said to have picked up his head (as you do) and bought it down the hill, where he placed down the head. He walked about 30 yards and died. Where his body lay, the church was raised, and the head was marked by a yew sapling.  Well there's an old church and an enormous yew tree....and a lovely bit of 'history'.
Anyway.... I hope the project is coming along well.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 13, 2018)

G'day SS,actually the farm looks more like the third pic (BTW there is a 4 year time span in the three photos).In the last month we have had about 30 mm of rain ,it topped up our house tanks and put a little in some of the dams,but has only produced enough feed for the "rabbits and the kangaroos " in reality.The BOM is suggesting that we will get some more in the next day or so (here's hoping).

Our local village(the locals call it  a town),the whole town and surrounds is Heritage Listed is Braidwood NSW,you can Google it and will see lots of stuff.The town was used for the movie "Ned Kelly" and gold was discovered in many parts of the region nearby.

Henry and I are getting along "famously" and once we have conquered the vacant Wombat holes and the rabbit warrens,work on the next stage of the concept will begin,but it will have to wait until the rains come so we are using a stable environment to work in.

It may be that you could use at least part of the concept to slow the rush of water down the drainage lines.Does your land cover the "top of the catchment" that is above your gullies?....T.O.R.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 13, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> Does your land cover the "top of the catchment" that is above your gullies?....T.O.R.


 The hillside above our place is owned by a neighbour and is just bare fields with mesh fences. The surface water forms into a deep ravine on our land... magical little place really. Here it slows off and goes onto fairly flat land. We've added 200-300 saplings around here.





 

We've reinforced the hedges on our land with natives 'mix', so, as well as helping to stop the erosion we have wild roses, blackthorn and hawthorn flowers.

Interesting stuff about your local village...'Ned Kelly' town.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 13, 2018)

G'day SS,from the photos it would appear that the water course is running over bed-rock.At the top is there a "head-cut" developing? I assume the land of your neighbors is used for cropping? How close to the gully is your boundary? On your side of the boundary is there a hedgerow? If I was on the receiving end I would be concerned about fert/chemical runoff onto my fields.

At the bottom of the gully does the water travel down an existing watercourse or flood onto your fields? How great is the fall (in feet) from top to bottom,roughly.The height is important as it will give some indication of the speed generated by the falling water.

If you have a satellite photo of your farm (from say Google) and its surrounds showing your fields ,the position of the gully/gully's,hedgerows and field boundary's and indicate the general  fall of the land.From this distance I can only apply a "common sense" solution and suggestions,but I guess anything can assist.....T.O.R.


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## Baymule (Nov 13, 2018)

They are called swales here too. My grandfather had them, built by the CCC, on his family farm, he called them terraces, so I did too.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 14, 2018)

T.O.R we have the typical (around here) 'run off' which starts at the top of the hill as field drainage, gathers drainage from other fields  where it eats through the topsoil down to the bedrock and ends up in a deep valley which winds down to the bottom of the hill. These may or may not flatten out along the course of the stretch and vary between dried up on the summer and raging torrents in the event of heavy and persistent rain.
This particular one drains off about 3 large fields of our neighbour and starts to form a gully on our land. The sides of the gully get steeper and steeper on our land (as shown in the pic above), then it starts to flatten out behind our sheep shed. It then falls gently for a while, goes through a very large culvert which we placed there, runs slowly downhill through our field, through a second very wide diameter culvert, across a gently sloping area by the side of our drive, enters our man-made mini lake and then goes on to form the tributary of a river. So generally we have steep areas interspersed with relatively flat areas.
Before we inserted the culverts and before the water course dropped away in one area we had flooding regularly of one field, occasionally of another, and flooded our old sheep shed after we had constant rain for 4 days and nights.Following the natural erosion, culvert insertion and a bit of cleaning up, the water 'stays put' even in the worst of downpours, but varies between dry and a torrent. We have had no field flooding or shed flooding at all.
We own the whole of the stream below the neighbour's 3 fields and the hedgerows.
As regards to fertiliser contamination, then I'm sure that there will be some. However, both we and our neighbour belong to a land stewardship scheme which demands that we use very little fertiliser in the fields which are part of that scheme. As there are trout and otters a short way down from us, the water  of that river which starts on our land must be pretty clean.
It's rather strange here that an area known for it's heavy rainfall is starting to get droughts.....probably a graphic demonstration of climate change.
Well, TOR, after my rather complicated explanation of our drainage problems, I'll be interested to see how you and Henry go on with alleviating yours.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 18, 2018)

G'day SS,how have you approached the "head-cut" at the top of the gully? Would it be possible to post a photo? If the head-cut is growing year by year then I would make this a "priority" as I think this will eventually impact not only your farm but your neighbors as well.

The work done previously on the creek solved almost all of the problems we had,if I was to do anything else it would be to replace the original weir as the gal iron has "rotted away" in the 10 years it has been in place.What I do want is to place some "new weirs" further up the catchment to reduce the pressure at the creek and spread the moisture sideways in the higher slope.When I advised our local chap about "Henry" he almost "fainted" and then asked if "before" I do anything could he do a new series of radar scans so the impacts can be measured,to which I agreed.I intend to wait until the current "dry spell" has broken before I look at this project as I have lots of rabbits and wombats to attend to first. 

Henry and I have almost completed our first task which was to collapse the set of old Wombat tunnels and existing rabbit burrows, the site was about 1 ac in area with the tunnels crisscrossing the area which was covered in Bracken Fern ,which added to the difficulty.I must say that I have learned quite a lot in this task ,even how to get the machine out of a trench which "gave way" under the weight of Henry.We sat there for quite a few minutes as I considered just how I was going to get us out of this predicament.In the end I used the bucket and the grader blade to lift the machine "clear " of the trench and with a little "back and forth" using the tracks we got clear(another disaster avoided) and carried on with the task......T.O.R.


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