# Prevention of Urinary Calculi



## Molly (Nov 7, 2011)

What can be done to prevent UC from developing in wethers?  I know not to feed grain, but have no idea what ammonium chloride? is used for or where to get it? how to administer?, or Fruit Fresh?  what does it do?  is it a preventative or emergency aid?  I have also read about apple cider vinegar helping?  What mineral lick is good for goats?  any advice would be helpful.  Thanks.


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## 20kidsonhill (Nov 7, 2011)

Ammonia chloride is very very cheap, it it looks like a coarse salt, I purhaces a couple lbs at the feed store for something like 85 cents.  It can also be purchased on-line. More than likely you will get more than you need for a lifetime, but since it is so cheap it isn't a big deal and it keeps like salt would.  

fruit Fresh isn't quit as prooven as a preventive or treatment, but technically works in the same way by disolving the stones that build up in the urinary tract. 

The same concept of running vinegar(an acid) through you dishwasher or coffee pot. Helps to dissolve the build-up by creating a more acidic invironment. 


For ammonia chloride(AC)  A preventive dosage given daily would be 1 teaspoon per 150lbs of animal per day.  

Treatment dosages are higher.

This website does a good job outlining prevention and treatment of UC. 
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm


I personally, don't feel feeding a good goat grain is a death sentence for a whether.  As long as the grain you are feeding is properly formulated with a 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorus ratio and contains ammonia chloride.   Giving you goat just straight corn would not be a good idea. Even just giving some grass hays can cause the phosphorus levels to be too high, resulting in stones. 

YOu would want to look for a mineral that has atleast twice as much calcium as phosphorus.  If available in your area, Sweetlix, meatmaker is an excellant goat mineral. But there are others that work well.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 7, 2011)

Molly said:
			
		

> What can be done to prevent UC from developing in wethers?


In almost all cases, urinary calculi is the result of improper feeding..  Either an improper feed was used (i.e., corn) or the goat was given too much bagged feed.  Graze, browse, and hay -- any kind really, even grass* -- should be the primary diet.  Bagged feed is supplemental feed -- always remember that.  Use it on an as-needed basis..  If your goat is getting along fine on whatever graze/browse/hay you're able to provide, there's no need to supplement.



> I know not to feed grain, but have no idea what ammonium chloride? is used for


Urinary calculi in goats is generally a saturation of magnesium, ammonia, and phosphorus in urine that's not acidic enough, leading to the formation of magnesium ammonia phosphate crystals..  Ammonium chloride dissolves these stones by making the urine more acidic.



> or where to get it?


You can order it from most goat supply houses, such as Hoegger or Caprine Supply, and you can sometimes find it at feedstores.  Your vet's office may be another option.



> how to administer?


The ammonium chloride we use for goats is water soluble, so it's simply mixed with water and given orally ('drenched')..  The dosage I'd recommend is about 3g/22lbs of goat, 1x/day for about a week.



> or Fruit Fresh?  what does it do?  is it a preventative or emergency aid?


Fruit Fresh may or may not help, depending on who you talk to or what you read.  I don't think anybody would choose Fruit Fresh *over* AC, though, so if you make sure to keep AC on hand, the Fruit Fresh thing becomes a moot point.  



> I have also read about apple cider vinegar helping?


Well, ACV is one of those "cure for what ails ya" type of things that some folks swear by for everything from mastitis to urinary calculi to internal parasites..  I don't personally fool with it.



> What mineral lick is good for goats?


Loose mineral is far, far superior to 'licks' when it comes to goats, if by 'lick' you mean 'block'..  If you can find a mineral that's made for goats, that's probably going to be your best option..  If not, look for one that contains copper and selenium, but avoid anything that contains 'copper oxide'..  If it contains copper oxide, it's almost certainly junk mineral that won't do your animals any good..  You want copper sulfate, or copper proteinate, or something like that..  The fewer instances of the word 'oxide' you see on the bag label, the better off you'll be.  

Generally speaking, you'll save time by picking up the most expensive bag first.  Mineral is very much a "you get whatcha pay for" item.

Other than that, **AVOID** anything labeled "Hi-Mag" or "Spring" mineral, as these are designed to help avoid something called "grass staggers" in cattle..  That's another name for a dietary magnesium deficiency, related to grazing early Spring pastures..  As such, hi-mag and Spring mineral mixes will be very, very high in magnesium -- refer back to my earlier explanation of _magnesium_ ammonium phosphate stones..  


* - As for grass hay, it's true that it's higher in phosphorus than calcium, but not as much so on a pound-for-pound basis as bagged feed..  Plus, goats are more or less designed for that kind of imbalance when it comes to eating grass/browse/hay..  They use a lot of saliva for those foods -- especially dry hay -- and phosphorus is recycled through saliva..  In other words, yes, they're taking in more phosphorus than calcium on grass hay, but they're using more phosphorus in order to do it.  

Long and short, grass hay is pretty safe.  Of course, it would be better if you could add some calcium if only so the animal can have a more balanced diet...but I've never heard a single instance of anyone ever having a case of magnesium ammonium phosphate stones in a wether because it was on grass hay.


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## Molly (Nov 7, 2011)

Thank you so much for the info.  I am going to print this off and keep it on hand for reference.


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## elevan (Nov 7, 2011)

Balancing your Ca: Ph  (Calcium: Phosphorus) ratio is important.  You want it to be 2:1

I feed my wethers grain during the winter because they eat with the rest of the herd.  I make sure the grain (pellets) that I purchase have AC as an ingredient.  My mineral mix has AC as an ingredient as well.  I also keep AC on hand as a treatment if needed.  Some people will also add apple cider vinegar to their goat's water.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 8, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Balancing your Ca: Ph  (Calcium: Phosphorus) ratio is important.  You want it to be 2:1


I've seen research indicating that it should be a 2.5:1 minimum, but they important thing is that it's *at least* 2:1..  I personally consider it a bare minimum, and that's coming from someone who has dealt with a case of UC in an intact buck who was being fed 2:1 feed w/ added ammonium chloride..


The reasoning behind the 2:1 minimum is that the goat's body will use _either_ calcium _or_ phosphorus, with a sort of "preference" for calcium..  To use them requires that they be absorbed from the GI tract into the bloodstream.  If the goat's diet -- and therefore, it's blood -- is short on calcium, it will begin to absorb lots of phosphorus into the bloodstream..  The phosphorus will be used as needed, and the excess will be pulled from the bloodstream by the kidneys and excreted through the urine..  If the urine becomes saturated with phosphorus (and magnesium, and ammonia) and the acidity drops a bit (through a mild/beginning bladder infection, or even a genetic predisposition to neutral or slightly alkaline urine, perhaps), the phosphorus, magnesium, and ammonia will precipitate into crystals and BAM...urinary calculi.

Now, as I mentioned before, the body sort of has a preference for calcium over phosphorus..  To exercise that preference, what happens is that when blood calcium reaches an adequate level, the GI tract basically stops absorbing phosphorus..  Or, _excessive amounts_ of phosphorus, at least..  So, formulating the feed to contain more calcium than phosphorus is really just an attempt to load the blood with calcium in order to stop the GI from absorbing excess phosphorus..  This practice has been found to be very effective at lowering urine phosphorus levels, which dramatically decreases the incidence of urinary calculi.. 

Having said all that, something else that's important to consider is that calcium is more expensive than phosphorus, and therefore this 'discovery' was probably bad news to feed suppliers, and likely led to some discussion about how much it would cost to feed a goat this way..  That's why I have no doubt, personally, that some thought was given to the price of feed in regard to the discovery, and that meant finding the _absolute rock-bottom minimum ratio that would usually work_.  And that, I think, is where the 2:1 ratio came from.

Like I said, I've read other research which indicates that a better ratio would be 2.5:1 -- but I still believe that's just a suggestion for a new rock-bottom minimum..  Personally...well, I felt *a lot* more comfortable when I was mixing 16% 2:1 goat grain about 50:50 with 17% alfalfa pellets, which are about 6:1 Ca: P..  The final ratio of that concoction was about 4:1, if I recall correctly.. 

That's what I fed my UC buck during his recovery and while he was growing, and he's still kickin around out there right now..


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## elevan (Nov 8, 2011)

I do mix in alfalfa pellets!  Brain just didn't click in that they add extra calcium.  Thanks for the input cm


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## esbee (Nov 9, 2011)

I put down one of my 8 month old nubian bucks yesterday because of UC .  He has been eating Purina Noble Goat that has ammonia chloride.  He was also browsing/grazing and had grass hay.  His pen mate - another 8 month old nubian buck - had the same diet.  They also had free choice loose Techmaster minerals.  Patrick had UC, Magnus did not.  I tried drenching Patrick with AC but I'm not sure much of it went in.  He was in severe pain and I went ahead and put him down.    A friend with angora goat says she uses a product called methigel.  It is for dogs/cats.  She had a line of angoras that were chronic UC.  I'll have to check into methigel.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2011)

Sorry to hear that..    And, for what it's worth, ammonium chloride isn't a surefire cure for UC anyway; it's actually just this side of a hail-Mary, once UC actually becomes a problem..  As for why one goat may develop UC while another on the same diet does not, there are any number of reasons why that could be.  Perhaps Patrick was developing a urinary tract infection which made his urine less acidic..  Perhaps his own genetic metabolic disposition was for less-acidic pH, normally..  Perhaps his urethra was of a smaller diameter than the other buck..  If they were sharing the bagged feed ration, perhaps he was just a bit more aggressive about snarfing it down and got more of it than his penmate..  Who knows..  The point is that, sometimes, it just happens, and they can't always be saved.  You tried, though, and when it became obvious that it was a losing battle and he was in a lot of pain, you put your own feelings aside long enough to end Patrick's suffering.  I *know* how hard that can be..  Just know that your effort -- and in the end, your compassion -- counts for a lot.

Again...really sorry you had to go through that.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2011)

I'm thinking this may be a good thread to re-iterate a treatment that worked for me, and has since worked for at least two others that I shared it with.  I'm going to just list out 'steps,' as it were, for the sake of brevity (which isn't normally one of my stronger suits).

1) Clip the pizzle.  It's the little curly-Q that hangs of the tip of the weenis.  I'd suggest a sharp knife, but keep in mind that if you couldn't clip off whatever you're *thinking* is the pizzle with a pair of toenail clippers, you're looking at the wrong thing.

2) Acepromazine, injected.  You'll have to consult a vet to get it anyway, so get the dose from them.  Used in this case to relax the spasming muscles of the sigmoid flexure.  I *personally witnessed* my own almost-totally-blocked UC buck let loose and pee like a racehorse about 2min after a dose of Acepromazine, as his apparent UC blockage at that time was really just that his sigmoid flexure was spasming. 

3) Ammonium chloride, drench @ 3g/22lbs of goat, 1x/day for a week.

4) Dexamethasone, 1ml/20lbs of goat, IM, 1x/day for at least a week, then tapered-down dosage for several days after that.  Long-acting anti-inflammatory.  The urethra very often becomes extremely irritated on account of the goat passing sharp crystals through the urine, and will actually swell shut.  Dexamethasone (and banamine, below) will help avoid/treat that problem.  MUCH better to *avoid* it, though, which means giving Dexamethasone right away..

5) Banamine, 1ml/100lbs.  I give it IM, but SQ will work.  Pain relief, but perhaps more importantly is that it's a fast-acting anti-inflammatory.  

6) PenG -- 1ml/15lbs of goat, 2x/day through an 18 or 20ga needle, for the duration of the Dex treatment.


So basically, there ya go.  When you realize your buck or wether has UC, ideally you'd want to have all of the above done within just a few minutes.  If you lack the meds, do as much of it as you can and consult a vet ASAFP and *demand* that they give you Dex, Banamine, and Acepromazine..  If they don't understand why -- I've known this to happen -- explain it as best you can, but ultimately you may have to simply DEMAND it..  Most vets at that point just kinda go..."well, whatever"...and give you what you think you need, provided they don't think it will necessarily *hurt* anything..  

Another thing -- DO NOT allow your veterinarian to attempt to run a catheter through the goat's urethra into its bladder.  The male goat has a hairpin bend in his urethra which *will* prevent any attempt to reach the bladder, and in all likelihood, the vet will try and try and try before giving up, which will only lead to more and more irritation and potential swelling of the urethra.  It's simply not worth the wasted effort.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Nov 9, 2011)

I agree that AC isn't a substitute for properly balanced nutrition.  Folks are sometimes under the impression that they can feed as much grain as they like as long as it contains AC and it simply isn't the case.  Balance your Ca: P ratios.  The alfalfa is going to do A LOT more for your growing weanlings than just prevent UC and often it's possible to keep non-working (mature) bucks well conditioned using alfalfa and omitting the grain altogether.


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## Molly (Nov 9, 2011)

My 3.5 yo pygmy wether Ike had a UC that totally blocked him up.  The first symptom I noticed was him straining to pee.  I feel so bad as before this I had no clue UC was even a problem I had to prevent.  I had the vet come out, and we tried a few things but in the end we had to put him down.  I have a female pygmy now and on Saturday we are getting a pair of 7 week old Nigerian dwarf twins (doe and soon to be wether)  I was very hesitant to get another wether after what happened to Ike, but am hopeful with proper feed and supplements, UC will not be a problem for him.  I will post photos when we get back from our 8 hr (one way) road trip with 4 kids (human kind) this week end.  Thanks again for all the advice


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## esbee (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks for the hug.  Have you ever used or heard of methigel?


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## cmjust0 (Nov 11, 2011)

esbee said:
			
		

> Thanks for the hug.  Have you ever used or heard of methigel?


Nope, never have..  After reading a little bit about it, though, it seems like something that's used fairly commonly to lower urine pH (make it more acidic) in the small animal world for dogs and cats..  

Could be something the goat world should explore a little more..  Next time I talk to my vets, I'll ask about dl-methionine in ruminants and see if they have any input..


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## Beekissed (Nov 11, 2011)

> URINARY CALCULI and URINARY TRACT OBSTRUCTION in PET GOATS
> The formation of mineral deposits or urinary calculi in the bladder can lead to life-threatening urinary tract obstruction in castrated male goats.  There are some steps you can take to prevent this condition from developing in your goat.  If your goat does develop urinary calculi, early recognition of the symptoms of urinary tract obstruction may save his life.
> 
> Prevention of Urinary Calculi
> ...


http://www.cotatilargeanimal.com/home.html

http://kinne.net/urincalc.htm


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## cmjust0 (Nov 11, 2011)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> > URINARY CALCULI and URINARY TRACT OBSTRUCTION in PET GOATS
> > The formation of mineral deposits or urinary calculi in the bladder can lead to life-threatening urinary tract obstruction in castrated male goats.  There are some steps you can take to prevent this condition from developing in your goat.  If your goat does develop urinary calculi, early recognition of the symptoms of urinary tract obstruction may save his life.


Incorrect -- _any_ male goat, not just wethers.



> Dietary factors play a big role in the formation of urinary calculi.  In particular, *feeding large amounts of grain and alfalfa **greatly increases the risk of developing calculi.*  This is because these feeds have an improper calciumhosphorus ratio and tend to increase urine pH to a level which favors the formation of minearl deposits.


Completely and totally wrong.  Whoever wrote this has an inadequate understanding of why the Ca ratio is important, which is that it limits blood phosphorus levels.  Time and again, I've heard people warn about feeding alfalfa to males when, in fact, the calcium provided by alfalfa keeps phosphorus levels in check and helps *prevent* UC..  It still surprises me to hear it come out of the mouths of experienced goat producers, but to see it in print coming from a large animal clinic?...*amazing*



> Providing a loose salt and mineral mix designed for goats...


I'm surprised they don't recommend against this after mentioning alfalfa, considering how sodium -- salt -- is passed out with calcium.  You'd think that if they really believed urinary calcium to be a problem, they'd tell you to keep your animals away from salt, too!



And, btw, they really shouldn't use the word "salt" in the first place, as that's a big mistake newbies often make -- providing salt AND mineral..  Providing straight salt really only allows the animal to get its salt fix from the straight salt, therefore allowing it to cut its mineral intake to insufficient levels.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 11, 2011)

ARGH!      My landlord *REFUSES* to feed his male goats any alfalfa (because he is convinced it will kill them because of UC.)       and feeds almost straight sweet feed with a little hay to his goats.   I am struggling to get him to understand that they need some alfalfa and MUCH more hay in their diet.  They have no browse or grass at all.   They have only bare rock to live on.  

I need something to back me up to change his stubborn mind.


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## elevan (Nov 11, 2011)

My vet has told me many times that while there are different types of urinary calculi the most common type found in goats is caused by phosphorus...rarely found is the type caused by excess calcium (that is normally found in humans instead).  I think that's where many people get confused in comparing goats to humans.  :/


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## cmjust0 (Nov 11, 2011)

QM said:
			
		

> My landlord REFUSES to feed his male goats any alfalfa (because he is convinced it will kill them because of UC) and feeds almost straight sweet feed with a little hay to his goats.   I am struggling to get him to understand that they need some alfalfa and MUCH more hay in their diet.  They have no browse or grass at all.   They have only bare rock to live on.
> 
> I need something to back me up to change his stubborn mind.


Dead goats tend to make a fairly strong statement that something's being done incorrectly, so I'd say if you just give it time....  I know that's bad, but some people just gotta learn the hard way.  

Also...he *does* realize that there's no "heat" in feed, right?  I've seen that mistake about as often as the calculi/calcium thing..  People talk about this or that feed being 'hotter' than other feeds...  Stupid.  :/  Come to think of it, this is usually the time of year when I start hearing about goats dying of bloat, acidosis, or UC because folks start adding straight corn to their feed to make it "hotter" because it's cold out..

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand they end up with dead goats..

For the record, what a goat -- or any other ruminant -- does best with in the cold is rough, course hay.  My personal preference is for a timothy/clover mix, as timothy's pretty stemmy and crunchy, but it's also a good time of year to put those 1st-cut alfalfa bales to use..  The courser it is, the more their rumen has to work to break it down, and the more the rumen works, the more heat will be generated..  

Which, of course, is why bagged feed generates almost no heat at all because it's been ground and pressed into pellets which disintegrate as soon as they get wet..  :/



			
				elevan said:
			
		

> My vet has told me many times that while there are different types of urinary calculi the most common type found in goats is caused by phosphorus...rarely found is the type caused by excess calcium (that is normally found in humans instead).  I think that's where many people get confused in comparing goats to humans.


I think people just assume the word 'calculi' is a derivative of 'calcium' somehow, but yes, also that UC is the "basically" same as kidney stones in people..  Couldn't be more different, of course, but having both the above ideas in one's head makes for a strong intuition _against_ feeding calcium to bucks and wethers..  It's a shame, really..  If they'd given it a name like "precipatative hyperphosphaturia" we wouldn't have had this problem because people woulda been like...wha?!? -- but would NOT have connected it with calcium in any way.


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## kstaven (Nov 12, 2011)

I have to agree with you CM. If alfalfa was the route cause all my bucks would be dead or dieing.


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## DKRabbitry (Nov 12, 2011)

I asked my goaty mentor about the whole feeding bucks thing because she feeds her bucks the same alfalfa hay as her milking does and, like every new person trying to read as much as possible, I came across that whole "Alfalfa is bad for bucks" thing.  Well she told me the the UC come about when the Ca: P in the goats gets all out of whack and said that if I am worried about them getting too much Ca, I can give them Sweetlix Magnum-Milk mineral.  I have been using the Sweetlix Meatmaker, which has a 2:1 ratio, and the Magnum-Milk has a 1:1 ratio.  The Product information on the Mangum-Milk says it is for lactating does on alfalfa diets... so they lowered the calcium in it to that the weren't getting too much as far as I can tell.  So that would be bad for the bucks, because we want the calcium to be higher than the phosphorus, even when they have a good source of calcium in their diets.  Correct?

Meatmaker Info - http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C14A34/goats.aspx?load=123
Magnum-Milk Info - http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C14A36P137/sweetlix-caprine-magnum-milk-mineral.aspx


ETA: She uses the meatmaker with the alfalfa hay and has never had any problems....


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## Beekissed (Nov 13, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Beekissed said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All this info came from a large animal veterinarian site...as in vet.    Maybe you should offer to teach them something they don't know from vet school?


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## aggieterpkatie (Nov 13, 2011)

Unfortunately, not all vets are knowledgeable in animal nutrition.  Sure, they've got a basic knowledge of it, but they're often times not experts in it.  Same way human doctors aren't always the most reliable source for human nutrition (pushing everyone to eat low fat, etc).   There are some vets who have a personal interest in nutrition and will study it more thoroughly, but not all vets are the ones to talk to about nutrition.


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## elevan (Nov 13, 2011)

[quoteKRabbitry]I asked my goaty mentor about the whole feeding bucks thing because she feeds her bucks the same alfalfa hay as her milking does and, like every new person trying to read as much as possible, I came across that whole "Alfalfa is bad for bucks" thing.  Well she told me the the UC come about when the Ca: P in the goats gets all out of whack and said that if I am worried about them getting too much Ca, I can give them Sweetlix Magnum-Milk mineral.  I have been using the Sweetlix Meatmaker, which has a 2:1 ratio, and the Magnum-Milk has a 1:1 ratio.  The Product information on the Mangum-Milk says it is for lactating does on alfalfa diets... so they lowered the calcium in it to that the weren't getting too much as far as I can tell.  So that would be bad for the bucks, because we want the calcium to be higher than the phosphorus, even when they have a good source of calcium in their diets.  Correct?

Meatmaker Info - http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C14A34/goats.aspx?load=123
Magnum-Milk Info - http://www.sweetlix.com/products/C14A36P137/sweetlix-caprine-magnum-milk-mineral.aspx


ETA: She uses the meatmaker with the alfalfa hay and has never had any problems....[/quote]
Personally I would not worry about them getting too much Calcium (wethers / bucks)  Remember that Phosphorus is the primary cause of UC in goats (not calcium).  Keep the ratio at least 2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus and as cmjust0 stated potentially even higher on the calcium side (although I wouldn't go extreme on the calcium side).


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## redtailgal (Nov 13, 2011)

Ok guys, I've been lurking on this thread with alot of interest, but now you all have my head spinning.

I am terrified of the thought of my wethers getting UC.  I feed a grain very similar to Noble goat, but not that specific brand.  The ratio is slightly better than 2:1 in this grain, and it does have AC as an ingredient.  I do however, once a week, add some extra AC to the pellets for my wethers.

They dont get most of what I had. Its a powder so it sinks to the bottom. I've tried wetting the pellets slightly, but aparently damp pellets are GROSS and my boys wont eat them damp.

In addition to my wethers, I have a young pair of does that I intend to breed.

Now, all that said, are you saying that adding alfalfa pellets will  be beneficial to preventing AC?

I would love to add some alfalfa pellets to the feed, but was under the impression that alfalfa would CAUSE ac?

Please, my head is spinning, stop the confusion!


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## elevan (Nov 13, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Now, all that said, are you saying that adding alfalfa pellets will  be beneficial to preventing AC?


That is correct.




> I would love to add some alfalfa pellets to the feed, but was under the impression that alfalfa would CAUSE ac


Nope, doesn't cause it.  Too much phosphorus causes it in goats



> I do however, once a week, add some extra AC to the pellets for my wethers.
> They dont get most of what I had. Its a powder so it sinks to the bottom. I've tried wetting the pellets slightly, but aparently damp pellets are GROSS and my boys wont eat them damp.


The only way to effectively add it to grain / pellets is to add it to sweet feed cause then it will stick.  Otherwise it sinks to the bottom of the dish and they ignore it.


I add additional to their mineral mix even though it already has some in it.


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## Roll farms (Nov 13, 2011)

I swirl some in the water, esp. after they eat when they seem to drink the most.


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## redtailgal (Nov 13, 2011)

Ok, since the ac is swirled in the water, I am assuming that it's ok for the does to have?


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## elevan (Nov 13, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Ok, since the ac is swirled in the water, I am assuming that it's ok for the does to have?


Yep.  AC won't hurt your does.  Does can get UC too, but their urethral process is less complicated and they're generally able to pass the stones / sludge.

I don't add to the water because my boys won't drink it  :/  But then my goats won't eat raisins or any of those other treats that some people will recommend either.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 14, 2011)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> All this info came from a large animal veterinarian site...as in vet.    Maybe you should offer to teach them something they don't know from vet school?


Apparently so.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Nov 14, 2011)

Alfalfa does not cause UC.  And bucks that are not working can maintain proper body condition with adequate amounts of alfalfa with very little or no grain at all a lot of the time.  Without worrying about urinary calculi.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.  For us hay and alfalfa ARE their main source of nutrition- grain is a supplement.  Not the other way around.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 14, 2011)

I think the above holds true for any class of goat, really..  That they can maintain proper body condition with adequate hay and forage, I mean..  Yes, does will get thin when they're nursing, but I've actually had to *stop* feeding grain to dams raising kids naturally because the more I fed, the more milk they made, and the more they nursed, and the thinner they got..  The only ones gaining condition from the feed I was giving were the kids, which didn't really need it.  When I realized I was only digging the hole deeper and deeper by feeding more and more grain, I backed off and eventually just quit..  Does which were formerly encouraging their kids to nurse big swollen, grain-fueled udders suddenly started running away from their young'ens, dried up, and started putting weight back on -- still without grain..

At the end of the day, the fact is that if goats could not be raised without bagged feed, there would be no such thing as a goat.


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