# Fever and Scours



## newbiekat (Aug 22, 2014)

I have a 4 year old Nubian that has 104.5 temp and just today started with scours. Yesterday she was fussy on the stand and didn't finish her grain. Which is WEIRD, as I'm sure you all know. Today, she was fine on the stand but barely ate any grain. And when I unlocked her head she got off the stand and stood at the gate ready to go back in. SO UNLIKE HER. This afternoon, we wormed her and took her temp, and she was at 104.5!! EEEEK. She's not herself, and her scours are pretty bad. We just put out a bale of alfalfa so I'm hoping (or maybe just wanting to believe) the scours are partly associated with the richness of the hay... but I highly doubt it.

What do I do?? How do I drop the temp? What could it be???


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 22, 2014)

Is she in milk? Do you have a vet that can test her for mastitis? I would get a fecal run on her too. But with the temp, I have a feeling she has an infection of some sort.


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## newbiekat (Aug 22, 2014)

She is in milk, we test for mastitis regularly, she hasnt tested positive. 

I was thinking infection too, but what kind? Is there any way of knowing without a vet?


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## babsbag (Aug 22, 2014)

My first concern would be mastitis, my second would be pneumonia. The scours could be purely coincidental if you changed her feed; but then again it could be bacterial related scours.

Even if the milk looks ok I would try to find a CMT (California Mastitis Test) kit and test, or a vet.

A vet would probably be a really good idea anyways. There are forms of pneumonia that come on suddenly with no cough or runny nose and can actually kill pretty quickly.

bacterial scours I have no experience with...but I think I have read on BYH that you use Scour Halt, usually for pigs I think. But again, I really would get a vet involved.  If you search on BYH for treating scours I am pretty sure you will find some useful information about how to tell if scours are from feed or illness. Color and smell I believe but not sure, sorry.

I wish I could be more specific but goats are ...well goats; and hard to diagnose at times even for the pros.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 22, 2014)

If you are using the mastitis "cards" (Dr. Naylor)they are unreliable at the early stage. By the time it shows positive you are already treating it.

Babs just responded while I was typing- I agree the CMT is the best.

IMO it is a good time to contact your vet. More than likely they will tell you to start on Penicillin til they can see the goat or get more info.

The alfalfa can give loose fecals if it is just a change in feed but wouldn't give a temp.

Hope you get her temp down and find out the cause.

Do not give Nutri-drench to her with a fever.


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## newbiekat (Aug 22, 2014)

My thought was pneumonia too. We had a buckling die of it last summer. I have a CMT kit, and that's what I test with.. she's tested negative



babsbag said:


> I wish I could be more specific but goats are ...well goats; and hard to diagnose at times even for the pros.



Hah... Yep... thats what I love (and hate) about them... There are days I wonder if I should even be doing this. Some days I feel like I know what I should be looking for and how to treat it, other days I have no idea and lose goats left and right. SO frustrating. And emotional. Some days I wonder why I even have goats... but then again... I know I couldn't have it any other way..

I guess I may have to try to make a trip to the vet in the morning before I go out of town for the day. Planned trip for weeks. Of course, right?

Thanks everyone.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 22, 2014)

I have heard of this and it never crosses my mind because I have never seen pneumonia  and know of no-one in my region that has had any issues with it. Seems much more common in some regions. I hope she recovers soon.


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## babsbag (Aug 23, 2014)

Pneumonia is really common in goats from show families and since almost all of my friends show their goats I have been around it a lot, but never in my herd. It can hit hard and fast and there is more than one kind; some will kill before the symptoms ever show.  Goats are very susceptible to respiratory problems and kids are especially at risk when they are young and the days are hot and the nights are cool; I guess they have a hard time regulating their body temps.

I have started vaccinating for pastuerella pneumonia every fall and I have no more snotty noses and no more coughs so even though I have never had a full blown case of pneumonia the vaccine has certainly made a difference.

If you want to bring her temp down and you have some banamine I would go ahead and use it. My drug of choice would be Duramycin, LA200, or Oxcytetracyline if you think it is a respiratory issue. Penn if you think mastitis but mastitis usually walls itself off and will only respond to udder infusions.

Hope you can get ahold of your vet. These darn goats; this just shows you that doe code is at work not only during kidding season. Sorry about the trip out of town


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## newbiekat (Aug 23, 2014)

Babsbag- does the Pasturella Pneumonia vaccine help for pneumonia in the summer? That's the only time I've had experience with pneumonia appearing. Also, do you vaccinate everyone? Kids included?

I dont have banamine, but I did vaccinate her with Pen G this morning at 1cc/25 lbs and will continue for at least 5 days. I also gave her some Probios. She was at 103.1 temp this morning. Much better. Still high in my mind, but much better than 104.9!  I was unable to get ahold of the vet before we left, but felt better that her temp was down some... She still didnt eat this morning on the stand, so I decided not to milk her (she has twins still nursing). The scours must have just come on yesterday when I saw them because they were still wet on her backside. This morning her backside was dry, still a mess from yesterday but nothing new... I'm going to do another CMT Test tonight when we get home, and check her temp again. Maybe I was did it wrong and it is mastitis... Vet isnt open tomorrow either. Dang it.




babsbag said:


> These darn goats; this just shows you that doe code is at work not only during kidding season.


 
Isnt that the truth. It's amazing how hardy they are...  A friend of mine was commenting last year when we had a slew of things happening all within weeks (including the buckling dying of pneumonia) and she said, "Wow... Goats are pretty frail anaimals are they?" I remember commenting, "Actually, they're pretty hardy. So hardy in fact, that they arent like other animals in the sense that they show signs of sniffles etc for a while. If goats are sick that means they're pretty darn sick and thats why you have to act fast"   Not sure if she ever believed me but, oh well!


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## babsbag (Aug 23, 2014)

Goats also have a high metabolism and I think that is why things can progress so quickly. I always say that goats are the only animal that can be alive this morning and dead tonight.

Glad her fever is down and little, and maybe the scours were only from the feed and just a coincidence with the fever, may be totally unrelated. If she stays off her feed for long though that can bring a new set of problems if her rumen shuts down so glad you gave the probios.

The pneumonia vaccine is given once a year and I give mine in the fall, right around breeding time and I do kids and all. I would imagine that it would help with pasturella pneumonia no matter the time of year. I give it in the fall or (early winter sometimes) in hopes that it will pass to the kids when the doe freshens. Don' t really know if that works or not but can't hurt. I have seen the snotty nose and coughs in both summer and winter, doesn't seem to matter the time of year for the older goats; kids it is usually summer.

Hope your doe is on the mend and NO MASTISTIS


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## newbiekat (Aug 30, 2014)

Ok here's an update... We tested again with the CMT kit, she tested positive. Not completely gelled, but slightly, so we went ahead and treated with ToDAY. Both sides, morning and night just to be safe. Shortly after this, she started to get bottle jaw, and it escalated pretty fast. We had treated with cydectin about a month ago, but it must not have worked. So we went to the vet and brought a fecal in, and for some weird reason, the vet said there was no worms! Well, not enough to be concerned about. Has that ever happened to anyone??  There's no way she doesnt have worms, she's got bottle jaw!! Anyways, they gave us panacur (which they've told us to rotate between that, cydectin and synanthic). I don't like the whole rotating idea, but it seems that cydectin didnt work for Daisy... So they gave us panacur, which I later find out is the same thing as Safeguard. Lovely... They told us to dose 1cc/20 lbs for 3 days straight. We decided to dose at 1cc/10 lbs for 3 days. She also gave us (2) 1cc doses of excenel (an antibiotic), told us to give them 48 hrs apart (starting Tuesday 8/26) and start the Panacur dosage on the in between day. So we did.

I also decided, that since the bottle jaw was so evident, and the vet didnt seem to do anything about it, I'm also dosing her with 1cc/25 lbs of Iron, and 1cc/20 lbs of B12 daily. I have done that for 3 days straight now, will continue for at least another 2 or 3. Her bottle jaw was pretty bad two days ago, but since we started with the iron (and probably everything else) it has gone way down. I was planning on dosing her weekly for at least the next 3 weeks after these few days of continuous treatment.

We have stopped milking her since all of this happened (she still has her two kids nursing)... My concern is, her temperature is still fairly high (103.1 again), and she is refusing to eat. I'm wondering if worms aren't the only thing wrong... Could she have a bad tooth? Or am I just not giving it enough time? What's the deal?? I have continued to put her on the stand just to get her to eat something without milking her, but I'm worried cuz she is running AWAY from the gate and I have to go get her!  Granted we are giving her shots etc daily right now, but even that shouldnt deter her from grain! Today we got her on the stand, doctored her, but she stood while I milked two others and didnt take a single bite of grain. What's the deal?? I'm worried.


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## babsbag (Aug 31, 2014)

I would be worried too. Sorry she is not eating, that is the scary part. Can you give her some banamine and get the temp down and then maybe she will have more of an appetite? I would try some treats, not just grain, but of course go slow with anything new. Is there any browse she has access to that she might like? Mine would love blackberries and oak trees. They also like green beans and pumpkin.

Can't help with the bottle jaw as I have never dealt with that; my goats are on dry lot and I seldom have a worm problem. But I am sure the iron and B12 is helping  but why she has it and no worms is different. It is a sign of being anemic, but why is she anemic??? IDK

I wish I had some real advice, my doe that had mastitis never acted sick. Did the vet have any advice about that at all? The only I can think of is maybe systemic antibiotics as well in case she has a secondary infection.

Sorry I don't have any better advice.


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## alsea1 (Aug 31, 2014)

She sounds pretty ill.
I would def. go with some banamine.
I hope she takes starts getting better.


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## newbiekat (Oct 5, 2014)

Ok guys... Need your help. We have been struggling with her ever since this started... She has not fully recovered. Around that time (Aug 30th) we gave her 3 days of 1cc/10lbs of panacur, injectable iron, and B12 to get her appetite going. We gave her iron and B12 daily for about 3 days past the panacur days. She began to eat more, not quite back to herself though.

Two days before we were to dose with panacur again the bottle jaw began to reappear. We dosed again for the 3 days straight. It went away for those 3 days... The bottle jaw then came back within a day or two of dosing the second time. I don't know what to do!!

Her worming history goes as follows:
March- Ivomec (failed)
End of March- Cydectin
June- Cydectin
Aug (22)- Cydectin
Aug (28)- Panacur started
Sept (3 wks later)- Panacur

I guess looking back I did use Cydectin quite a bit...

Now it's the beginning of October, and apparently we can't get rid of the worms. She's the only goat that has needed wormed this much this Summer (we don't worm unless we see a need), and I can't get rid of them!! She's lost a bunch of weight, and I don't quite want to breed her until I can get her condition back up.

What do I do??? Should I go back to trying the Ivomec? I don't have Synanthic, the vet here isn't very nice to me (thinks I don't know what I'm doing... which, he may have a point , but he doesn't have to make his thoughts obvious).

HELLPPP!!!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 5, 2014)

When you de-worm her are you using a dry lot? Where is she dumping these worms?
I am wondering if she may have flukes. Flukes can also cause bottle jaw as they are blood suckers. If so there are only a few dewormers that work for this. I am not sure if cydectin does... ivermec and panacur do not. Ivermectin PLUS does.
Have you had actual fecals done? You may have mentioned this but I cannot remember.

If your herd management is good and you are not having these issues across the board with your other goats than this girl may need to be culled.
20% of your herd will be responsible for 80% of the parasites. When you can identify those goats it is best to cull as it will be best for the whole herd. Dairy goats especially she be culled hard for worm issues. No point in milking just to have to pitch the milk all the time from needing to de-worm. Parasite resistance does have a genetic factor. If she has constant issues there is a good chance her offspring will have the same issues.

That is a lot of de-worming for a goat. 
Are the goats dry lot or pasture?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 5, 2014)

forgot to ask... have you tested your herd for Johnnes?


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## newbiekat (Oct 5, 2014)

I am not dry lotting her, the only other place I could dry lot her is where I have some babies being weaned right now. 

I have had fecals done at the end of August, but we must not have grabbed new berries or not her berries because the vet said they couldnt find anything. I was thinking of bringing another sample to the vet again... **I NEED MY OWN MICROSCOPE... MAYBE FOR CHRISTMAS... SIGH...**

I may go to the farm store and get some Ivomec Plus tomorrow. I may try that.

We have talked about culling her but she's almost 5 and this is the first time we've really had issues with worms with her. We have another goat that had issues when she was younger, she is now 2 and has had no issues since then, so I'm not sure what the deal is. 

They are on pasture. We have sold off alot of goats in the past few weeks thinking maybe we were over grazing the pasture. We now have 8 on 3 acres. That CANT be too many.

I have not tested for Johnnes. We were planning on getting them tested when we got the girls preg tested this year. This is our first time getting them tested so we were wanting to get them preg tested, CAE, CL, and Johnnes tested this year. Except its really expensive from what I've researched... So we may start with Johnnes and preg tested cuz that might be the most economically feasable for us at the moment.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 5, 2014)

Testing for Johnnes on a pregnant animal can  give false positive.
LOL just about anything can cause false +. Deworming, kiddding etc.
Johnnes should be done as a whole herd evaluation. In other words if all animals are neg and you have a suspect or positive re-test on that animal is a good idea but don't panic... it is looking at the results by whole herd and consistency.

You may want to check out Rollins lab in NC
Out of state pays 2x what in state pays but CL is charged differently because that is sent out by Rollins to UC Davis and if you are out of state (not in CA) it is just $14.50

I am in state so I pay :
CAE- $1.50
Johnnes- $1.50
CL (through UC DAVIS- CA- out of state fee) $14.50

Looking at your signature line you have 13 goats

Out of state-
CAE- 13x 3.00= 39.00
Johnnes- same= 39.00
CL- 13x 14.50=188.50

There will be a charge of $20 for Rollins to send it overnight to UC Davis. If you are a first time client at Rollins there is a $10 or $20 fee (can't remember)

$306 I believe.
You may find somewhere cheaper for CL testing.
Can you draw your own blood?

If no worms are being found I would be considering other issues,
Even if you need to wait on CL testing as that is the biggest cost factor I would get the others done.  Then that would be... $98
I recommend Rollins because they are great to work with. They are patient with people, genuinely thoughful and helpful with any questions you have.

You may want to consider dry lotting them for a time and see how well they do. May cost a bit more but it allows them to eat without ingesting parasites. 
Has any cocci been found?

Most of the time everyone says let the grass grow up so they eat off the top and don't get the parasites BUT this is a two edge sword here. Tall long grasses also TRAP moisture! This creates a wonderful environment for parasites. Cutting it down to nothing in the spring summer allows the sun and heat to dry the land out which makes it an inhospitable environment for parasites. The sun bakes the land.

Kinda tricky I know. 

I can forward you the links for Rollins if you like... their site is a bit tricky to get around so I tend to just get to the exact pages LOL


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## newbiekat (Oct 6, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Testing for Johnnes on a pregnant animal can  give false positive.
> LOL just about anything can cause false +. Deworming, kiddding etc.



So what's the point, or rather, how do you know if its a true positive or not?

What about shipping? I'm in Kansas, would that be a killer? Does it have to be overnighted?

No, we don't know how to draw blood (which would be another fee from the vet to have them do it for us), but when DH and I were discussing this, we thought, well... Would the vet be willing to teach us how to pull our own blood while they're doing it? Or is that against their practice?



Southern by choice said:


> Has any cocci been found?



Well... We had one that they said there was some cocci in her fecal sample, but we treated for it, brought a fecal in just recently and they said there was no sign of cocci in the sample this time. So... I'm not sure... She had a whole slew of other issues at the time, including scours for probably 3 weeks as we did absolutely everything we could to clear them up (I'm amazed she didn't die)... But now she's scourless, and according the vet, coccidia free....



Southern by choice said:


> Most of the time everyone says let the grass grow up so they eat off the top and don't get the parasites BUT this is a two edge sword here. Tall long grasses also TRAP moisture! This creates a wonderful environment for parasites. Cutting it down to nothing in the spring summer allows the sun and heat to dry the land out which makes it an inhospitable environment for parasites. The sun bakes the land.



You know... Thinking about it, we didn't have our pasture baled this year like we normally do. We usually get 2 big round bales off our little 3 acres. But this year they said it wasn't enough to bale. So we didn't get it baled. We have been cutting small parts of the pasture at a time to get it cut down some, and the grass has grown up again in parts... It hasn't been excessively wet here... I'm wondering if not getting it cut at least may be part of our problem!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 6, 2014)

This is what is printed on the page of our results from the lab where we send our samples. Maybe this will explain it better.
We sttart testing for it when we send in samples for anything else like CAE, CL... usually by 8 months. Johnnes they want 18 m but we do it anyway. The most accurate way is fecal but that takes 4 months and is $40.

_"The Johne's ELISA was designed as a herd screening test and results should be interpreted on a herd, rather than an individual animal basis. It is recommended that diagnostic tests be used only for animals that are at least 18 months of age.
Antibodies to Mycobacterium avium subsp. paratuberculosis were not detected. Animals classified as negative by ELISA are either not infected or not producing antibodies. Re-testing in 6-12 months will increase the confidence that animals are truly free of infection. In M. avium subsp. paratuberculosis infected herds, a number of animals may be fecal culture positive but ELISA negative. A negative result on a single animal can only be interpreted when the paratuberculosis history and test results are known for the entire herd/ flock."_

Drawing blood is VERY EASY! I would ask your vet. Good vets usually will show you how. Vets that care more about the animals than their pockets want to help keep cost down. The vets I work with know I will call at the slightest concern about the goats so they also know I am not a "throw eveything at 'em" kind. I am a data person. IOW- Build a mutually beneficial relationship with your vet, it sounds like you have been doing that already.
It is very easy to feel for the jugular and very easy to draw. I will say using 12cc syringes, even though you only need 4-6 ml is easier then using a 6 ml syringe as you have less "draw". Easier on the hand. 
I have always been good at leg draws as my background is with canines so most of the time I did leg draws alone without anyone holdin- so getting it done quick and fast was important.  Leg draws you go parallel, with the jugular you don't want to go "parallel" but more at an angle but not straight in either. That way the needle doesn't pull out if the goat jumps.If it does no big deal but you need to be quick, if too slow then it can sart to clot in the needle and then that is done for... you would have to stick a new needle on. I like the luer lock syringe with 20 guage needle.
Also pulling back on the syringe first to break the "seal" then pushing the plunger back up makes the draw easier. That is done when you prep the needles/syringes not when you stick the goat LOL.
Bucks are generally more difficult. Let me rephrase that... they actually are better behaved, the difficulty comes in because their neck's are so big and the fold can be a pain. They are also very hairy! Sometimes shaving a spot may be better on the buck.

My nigie does are awful!  The little goats are squirmier and harder to hold. Easiest to back them in a corner so their butt is against the wall. Younger animals are really easy and bleed well!

When you have your vet out watch closely and hopefully he/she will let you try and give you pointers.

Glad to hear there is no cocci. I wonder if there was some bacterial infection with all the scours. 

We have really good resistance here and don't have many issues with worms but in 2012-2013 we had an unusual amount of rain in our region in NC. Almost 9 months of constant rain. The grass couldn't be cut because it would never dry out enough to mow it before it rained again. We fared ok but we did make the call to deworm everyone across the board that year before breeding regardless of EPG counts. That year farm after farm suffered. Almost every farm we know of lost kids and even adults. Cocci seemed to get the kids and worms the adults. We didn't lose a single goat but I aged 10 years worried about them!
It was so bad. Good farms that had never had an issue before... it devastated so many and then many ended up with cocci issues left on the land. A lot of breeders started cocci programs for the first time after that horrible season. 

Almost forgot... is your goat on any probiotics?


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 6, 2014)

We had a false positive for Johnnes on an ELISA once.  Out of 20 animals, only one tested positive on the ELISA.  Did a second test on that animal an "acid fast stain" test.  More accurate and more expensive than the ELISA.  You get false positives on an ELISA, but not false negatives.  If you have a herd of animals you do the cheapest test on the whole herd,  If you get positives you do the second test.  Just being in heat can cause a false positive.


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## newbiekat (Oct 8, 2014)

SBC- No she is not on probiotics. I have the tube of Probios though. What's the easiest way to give that to her She doesn't seem too fond of it when I try squirting it in her mouth, I've tried disguising it in her food, I bet she thinks "stupid human, I'm smarter than you think"... cuz she never eats it lol

Also, what's the dosage for Ivomec Plus? I read on Fiasco Farm that it was 1/50 lbs, but has been known to be successful as low as 1/34 lbs? Is it a one time dosage? Oral or injection?   Poor girl just looks so unhappy. 

I will need to look into the testing information once DH gets back into town. Of course he's been gone this week... Oh and we had one break her leg the other day too. Wonderful right??


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## newbiekat (Nov 22, 2014)

Ok, update.. Since all this, she has not improved at all... We had fecals run and a slew of blood tests... The vet decided that she had an "impressive" load of strongyles(sp?) which from what I understand is just barberpoles... I guess that's the worm that goats are most resistant to nation wide... We have one that has been battling coccidia for a little while now, so the vet decided she wanted to do a "fecal reduction test". What that is basically is when we take fecal samples from the whole herd, and decide on one fairly healthy one to become the "control". We worm everyone with a fairly strong dose of wormer (except the control), and take another fecal in 10-14 days. The goal of this is to see who is resistant to what wormer, and how to narrow down which wormers I am able to use. Right now we are on the first cycle. Everyone was wormed with a double dose of Cydectin except our control. In 10 days we will take a fecal sample in again and see what the next step is...

In the mean time, Daisy has tested positive for Johnnes as well, so I think regardless of the results of this fecal reduction test, we will cull her anyways.. Sad times... Seems like this is our point of "lets just get rid of them all, we cant seem to keep them all healthy anyways!"    I know its just a phase... I just hate that it seems like we cant do anything right sometimes.    ok... vent over.


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 22, 2014)

sorry to hear about your troubles


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## Southern by choice (Nov 22, 2014)

I really am at a loss for words. I can only imagine the emotional upheaval you are going through right now.
Just about every goat owner feels like giving it all up from time to time and we walk through it. Give yourself some cry time and definitely further investigate all your options. 
This is a very tragic situation.


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## Pearce Pastures (Nov 22, 2014)

So sorry.


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## newbiekat (Mar 14, 2015)

I know it has been a while since I've updated on Daisy, so I guess now's the time... We did end up culling her, she had lost 40 lbs from the beginning of Summer till the beginning of December when we got rid of her. Poor girl just looked so sad. I hated seeing her go, but I know it is going to help my herd... Since then, everyone has tested negative for CAE and Johnnes (even her daughter from last year, granted she was only 8 mos when tested)...

We plan to retest everyone this coming Fall for CAE and Johnnes (hopefully CL too, but that one's expensive!). We have started FAMACHA testing for worms, and in the last few weeks we have treated one or two that were borderline. We figure we would rather be safe than sorry. Hopefully this will help our worm population this Spring.

We also are having about 1/3 of an acre fenced in so the goats will have a separate area to roam. This section has never been grazed before, so hopefully that will help our wormload also.

We have decided to vaccinate for Pasturella from here on out, at the same time as the CDT. I guess my thought is, if it doesn't hurt them, why not prevent it in the first place...

We had 3 girls kid in the last 2 weeks. We should have had 4 (BioPryn tested positive at 30 days) but I think she miscarried early on and reabsorbed, because she never showed signs of miscarrying. My thought is that she was headbutted early on... Some of the other girls aren't so nice to her... So with the 3 kidding, we got 3 boys and 4 girls... I think we are planning on keeping all 4 girls and expanding our herd that way. Who knows... Baby goats make everything happy though 

Thanks for stickin' with me through this journey... I truly appreciate the BYH family I've gained so far. Look forward to many more stories to share in the coming years


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## Southern by choice (Mar 14, 2015)

It sounds though as you have allowed this tragic situation to help you  become an even better steward. I am so glad to hear you are not giving up but using all that you have to better your herd. This will help many others too. Thank you for sharing all the ups and downs.


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## bonbean01 (Mar 14, 2015)

X 2 what Southern posted!!!!


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 14, 2015)

Glad to hear that you have some new babies!!


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## alsea1 (Mar 14, 2015)

Sounds like your around the bend and things will go well.


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