# Whether Stabbed Nanny



## rodriguezpoultry (Jun 22, 2018)

Well, I believe I saw the reason my LaMancha doe was injured. A few days ago, I saw a "hole" in her side and assumed bot fly. I squeezed and very little pus came out but the area was severely swollen. I opted to take to the vet. The vet thought maybe a snake bite. Yeah....

After watching her behavior the last 2 days, it looks like one of the wethers may have hooked her with his horn. She used to be the top notch on the rung and today, I saw her run when one of the wethers lowered his head at the food dish.

The injury happened when there was no food other than browse so this shouldn't have been an aggression injury.

My questions are:
1. Is there anything I can do to prevent her from being injured other than separating her from the wethers? 
2. Can I have the horns removed on year old wethers? I'm betting not.
3. If nothing can be done, is it too early/ late in the season to have the wethers processed/ slaughtered or should I wait until the fall? 

Thank you!


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## greybeard (Jun 22, 2018)

https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/how-old-is-too-old-to-remove-horns.142036/

Your results may vary...


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 22, 2018)

We dehorned an adult doe. 
One of the best decisions we ever made. 

At this time of year you need to be careful though, you don't want your goat to get fly strike.

Here is the thread. Some of the pics are graphic but you can see the if this is something you'd be willing to do.
https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/de-horned-2yr-old-doe-week-3-update.28257/


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 22, 2018)

If you can find a processor open?  Around here they tend to shut down until fall due to grass being abundant and folks let animals grow.  I would not want to do any myself in heat of summer due to having to do it outdoors in heat/flies.  But a processor has indoor set up, etc.

You could try duct tape on horn ends so they are not so sharp.  Don't have to be about feeding when they spar over pecking order.


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## goats&moregoats (Jun 22, 2018)

They will look funny, but I put pieces of pool noodles over one of my nanny's while she was penned with other nursing mom's. I just cut the noodle down so it just came over the end of her horns. Use duck type to secure. 
I only had to do this temporarily until the babies figured out how fast to move. Once babies were older she was less aggressive with them as well.


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jun 22, 2018)

Hubby suggested Expanding foam instead of the pool noodle. Thoughts on this?

Would it be possible to separate her from the 2 wethers. Keeping them in separate pens but allowing them to see and hear each other through the chain link fencing? Or will that be too stressful?

I can't see doing the horn removal in the summer in Oklahoma. No way on that for the 1 wether. Even then, if my favorite guy is doing the damage to her, he'll have to go. When she does have another kid, I don't want the baby to be hurt because he's being aggressive.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jun 22, 2018)

Is there a reason to having the wether? 

If he were here, he’d be eaten. Goat meat is delicious


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jun 22, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Is there a reason to having the wether?
> 
> If he were here, he’d be eaten. Goat meat is delicious


One wether, McDerp, will be eaten. I hate that goat and I'm really hoping he's the cause of the problems. The other wether, Espresso, is super sweet, loves to be pet and cuddled. 

The whole purpose for the two wethers was as weed control. The doe though, she is for milk and weed control. I can't have her getting hurt as I rely on her. She's also the escape artist of the 3 so have to keep them all confined or move the wethers to another area.

If it winds up I have to eat both wethers, I can but I will say I'll enjoy one MUCH more than the other.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 22, 2018)

One goat alone is a very nervous, unhappy goat.


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## Latestarter (Jun 22, 2018)

Sorry she got gored... Glad it wasn't you or a family member. Only way to know if processing is available is to call around. Processors here work year round and are hard to get into during hunting season. So fall is a particularly bad time to try and get stuff scheduled.


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## Latestarter (Jun 22, 2018)

You may be able to find a replacement wether or (s) that has been disbudded by searching Craigs list. I just sold two more and have one more left for sale. They are still out there and may be a better bet and just eat the 2 you have. Hope your girl's wound heals up OK. Punctures are the worst for infections...


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jun 25, 2018)

She's healing up just fine thanks to the antibiotics. Just have to wait until this Saturday before I can drink her milk again. 

If I get another goat, it would be another LaMancha doe or LaMancha wether. I'm completely sold on them. Calm, docile and very friendly. Plus they're BIG. I like big goats! 

They are processing goats right now. I already have a butcher planned out but was just hoping to get them through this summer before doing it. Ah well. I'm highly doubtful my "favorite" boy did it. He's not at all the fighting kind. McDerp I can see doing it as he thinks he's the cock of the walk.


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## hilarie (Jun 27, 2018)

Agree with what's been answered so far.  In addition, I have some experience with removing horns on an adult goat.  It *is* possible, even in summer - I've done it - when warped scurs were growing into the goat's head on an ongoing basis.  I loved the goats and I wanted those scurs gone.  (The bad disbudding job wasn't done on my watch, but I had to pay the price.) It helps to find a vet with experience/comfort with removing adults' horns (I have such a fantastic vet) and it means you have to keep those fresh defects covered while it heals to prevent the dreaded fly strike. I found a wound care product for human medicine called Adaptic to be the BEST wound dressing ever for not sticking and keeping the wound clean. Wrapping a goat's head isn't the easiest thing in the world, but you can do it pretty easily with an accomplice. In addition, the second goat to be dehorned on my watch benefitted from the vet's new procedure of pulling the skin around the defect to be sutured across the middle and eliminating the need for a head dressing beyond the first day or two. It healed beautifully and - presto - no more horns and everybody's happy.


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## hilarie (Jun 27, 2018)

And BTW, I love LaManchas too.  Big goofballs.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 27, 2018)

Yes, you can dehorn adult goats.  The open horn roots will need more attention because of flies but it can be done easily with a wire saw.  But why bother to dehorn them?  Save the money and time and put them in the freezer.  Then look around for another (disbudded) LaMancha _doe_ to keep your doe company.  You can get one in milk, or a dry yearling.  Summer is here - Fair time!  Graduating 4-H kids will be selling off some or all of their milkers.  Many herd owners will sort out their show string and keep only their best milkers.  You might get a nice LaMancha with the promise of the seller breeding her back in August or September.  I wouldn't bother getting another wether, try to find another milker.  Milkers make plenty of wethers!  LOL

To avoid this goring problem next year disbud your goats at 7 - 10 days old just when you can feel the horn buds.  Bucks develop the buds earlier than doe kids.  It only hurts for a few minutes, and the benefits outweigh everything IMO.  We had 100 dairy goats and Boers, and I disbudded all of the doe kids.  The dairy buck kids I sold at 2 months through the local auction.  Our ethnic buyers wanted them with horns and with testicles.  It saved me work and they brought more $$$.  Win, win!  The Boer bucks were disbudded, castrated around 2 months old, and grown out for sale as project animals (or the freezer).

Horns injure children, other animals, tear up fences, and on one occasion a goat got her horns caught in the feeder and pulled it over on herself almost breaking her neck.  I soon sold her, nice as she was.   They make nice handles, but with milk goats you are milking they are so friendly and tame, you don't need anything but their collars to hold on to.  Actually, instead of having to catch the goats we practically had to beat them off when we went in their pens!  LOL


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jun 28, 2018)

Now I'm wondering if the abscess came from the wethers at all. I just got results back from the vet that she had positive titers for both CAE and CL. The wound was in an area where a lymph node was but that doesn't explain the very positive "hole" I found that traveled throughout or the quick way it appeared. Wasn't there the night before, all of a sudden there and dried out.

The pus was more toothpaste in consistency and looks and was not greenish like what I've been reading.

The vet said that it did not look like CL and that he had had multiple false positives this year even from closed herds. That being said, if I do purchase another animal, I would need it to be from a herd that does not have CL or CAE. Is there a CL vaccine?


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 28, 2018)

There is a CL vaccine.  I have had friends who used it to clean up infected herd.  They vaccinated and culled all with symptoms.  When we showed we vaccinated as sheep used same show pens as goats.  

CAE there is no vaccine.  You need to keep testing for at least four or five years after you close your herd. Best test is ELISA for the actual virus itself.  Washington State is best to talk to about sending samples to test.  It is now known that virus is in fluids of reproductive tract of both sexes.  So, pulling kids at birth does cut down on virus in kids, but they can still be infected.  

If you want dairy goats, I would suggest joining ADGA as you will get membership guide so you can find breeders near you.  Don't take anything at face value when it comes to diseases, be careful, do your homework.  

My  herd has been closed for years except for bringing in a buck.  My bucks come from a friend who is also quite obsessive about keeping his goats healthy.  His are tested and kids raised CAE prevention, just to be safe.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 28, 2018)

I am so sorry to hear this really bad news.  Follow Donna R Rayburn's advice and join ADGA.  Also, read up on dairy goats, not just the pet guides, but the ones that deal with disease, etc. 

Since your doe has tested positive for both CAE and CL my suggestion is (sorry) to cull her and eat both wethers.  Then replace her from a CAE and CL free herd.  CAE is contagious and there is no cure or vaccine.  The only prevention with CAE is to heat treat all colostrum and pasteurize all milk you feed to the goat kids.  Then do blood tests every year.  Get rid of all animals that are positive for CAE since it can be transferred between herd members in some cases.   

There is a vaccine for CL but since your doe already tests positive, she already has it and the vaccine will not cure it.  The vaccine will prevent it in new animals, but since your goat has it she will continue to produce abscesses.  The pus is contagious and eventually in spite of vaccinations, other goats can catch it.  CL pus looks very thick like firm cream or cottage cheese.  It is not really green and runny.  Again get rid of CL positive animals.

I am so sorry to tell you this, but I kept a very large herd free of CAE and CL for 18 years in spite of constant showing in youth and senior shows.  I did it by being strict in _getting rid immediately_ of any animals testing positive for those diseases.  You really don't want to fool around with this.  All animals should come from clean herds.  A reputable breeder who tests will be glad to show you the test results on the herd  before you buy.  CAE and CL are 2 big reasons for "closed" herds and why most breeders will not breed to goats they don't know (i.e. have bred and sold).


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jun 29, 2018)

Honestly, the CAE is not a big deal for me. The CL I am concerned about but not to the point of destroying them. These are brush eaters, first and foremost. The doe is there for my own milk intake. All doe kids will either be pulled and made into a bottle baby or eaten. All males will be freezer. I just won't sell to the public until I have a CL free herd when she passes naturally. 

She is a completely healthy doe and with the false positives I've been reading about from other breeders in the area, I'm not concerned enough to destroy the doe. She'll just be my own personal milk goat and pet.

Treating the abscesses is not a huge ordeal for me, if it winds up she does have CL. I'll have to check the titers that the doctor has at the office for their levels. They do not offer an ELISA test at the clinic around here. 

Meh...such is life.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 29, 2018)

rodriguezpoultry said:


> Honestly, the CAE is not a big deal for me. The CL I am concerned about but not to the point of destroying them. These are brush eaters, first and foremost. The doe is there for my own milk intake. All doe kids will either be pulled and made into a bottle baby or eaten. All males will be freezer. I just won't sell to the public until I have a CL free herd when she passes naturally.
> 
> She is a completely healthy doe and with the false positives I've been reading about from other breeders in the area, I'm not concerned enough to destroy the doe. She'll just be my own personal milk goat and pet.
> 
> ...




Retest before you cull... I would never cull a non symptomatic goat on just basis of a single test.  And, there are labs that I will not trust with so called negative results either.  Washington State University is the absolute gold standard IMVHO for CAE and CL testing.  
CAE virus is shed in milk and your body produces antibodies to the virus.  So your immune system is reacting to virus.  Not a good thing, as virus 'jump species' by this very pathway.  It is horrible when goat does develop symptoms to either CL or CAE.  You just don't know how nasty it is.   I would not drink milk, even pasteurized from a CAE or CL positive animals.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 29, 2018)

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word "cull".  It means to remove her from your herd and breeding stock, not necessarily kill her.  I suggest you retest her for both diseases with Washington State University.  I also suggest you look up in detail what Caprine Arthritc Encephalitis and Caseous Lymphadema are.  Read up on the advanced symptoms of the diseases as well as the minor symptoms. 

There is a reason why breeders are strict about not wanting these diseases in their herds.  If this doe continues to test positive for either disease, and you want to keep this doe, you may need to buy a buck since few breeders will knowingly breed to a doe that has either of these diseases.  Most will not want the animal on their property.  This is why many breeders close their herds and will not breed to strangers' animals.


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jul 3, 2018)

Yes, I've made the person I'll be breeding her too later on aware of the test results. She is one of the ones that has had a false positive result as well for both diseases. She sent the kid off for necropsy to confirm and the animal had no signs of either illness. 

As far as the term "cull" for me, it would be kill. I will not send her to someone else knowing that she has tested positive and I do not have a separate area that she can stay. So, I will not cull her from my herd unless she starts showing some of the other symptoms.

She's going on 5 to 6 years (according to previous owner) old and has not shown symptoms of either illness with the exception of this isolated incident with the wound.

Which, I saw the wether try to do gouge her again today. He is slated for Camp Kenmore sometime next week. The other wether is not showing any aggression at all towards her and runs from the other wether as well. It will be nice to have peace in the yard.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 3, 2018)

It sounds like you have it all under control.  Next kidding, keep a doe kid for company with her mom.  If the doe is 6 years old, you will want to replace her soon and raising her replacement will be fun for your children and you.  *Please disbud. * Would your breeder disbud the kids for you?  We used to do it for the 4-h kids in my project.  It really is safer without horns, especially with children.  Sometimes a goat will toss its head in a hooking motion and can take out a child's or stab them eye.  That hooking motion is not necessarily them trying to gore on purpose, it is rather a sort of backward toss over the shoulder hook with their horns sort of telling anyone alongside that they are in the lead and in charge.  But that action can accidently hurt a child.  I got hooked in the leg by a pet dwarf goat and it was not fun.  The wether hooked back with his head as I walked alongside to feed and got me in the thigh.  OUCH!  Luckily I was wearing heavy jeans, so just tore them and not too much damage to me, but a child?  Please disbud.


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jul 3, 2018)

Oh yeah, disbudding is an absolute necessity. These 2 wethers were always destined for the freezer so didn't think it was that big of a deal. Then I got attached to one. The other has always been a jerk so he'll be going. The other will have preventatives in place. 

Even if the breeder won't disbud for me, I will find someone who can and does a good job of it. No more horns.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 3, 2018)

Good - so relieved to hear it.  Some people don't like removing horns, but I think the danger outweighs the few minutes of discomfort.  Just cuddle the babies and give them a bottle afterwards and they are immediately over it.


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## rodriguezpoultry (Jul 3, 2018)

Also just found out that even wethers will mount a doe in heat. Guess that means she's in heat... great.

I don't even need her bred. She's still giving me over a half gallon of milk with 1x per day milking. Am I good to keep skipping having her bred?


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## Latestarter (Jul 15, 2018)

If you're using the milk, by all means you can keep milking her as long as you wish and she provides. Some does are naturals and will continue to produce milk as long as you keep milking. You don't have to breed her if you don't want to.


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