# BOSS



## Renegade (Feb 20, 2013)

I have noticed that a lot of people on hear add BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds) to their goats feed and wondered if anyone has looked up the calcium/phosphorus ratio. It is *extremely* out of balance. The ratio is 1 to 13. See below. 
 I have a friend that started givinga handful of BOSS to all of his show goats along with their regular feed. Within a week all of his bucks and buck kids were suffering from a major case of UC.
I'm not saying BOSS is bad just to be careful.

Each cup of BOSS has:

Calcium 117mg

Phophorus 1538mg 

Donna


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 20, 2013)

Never been a huge BOSS fan myself but after seeing that...wow...people better know what their doing for sure. Great post and thanks for putting that up here.


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## Catahoula (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes I have. I only give mine maybe about a tablespoon a day and I balance the ration with alfalfa pellets.  I found this awhile back on grass hay nutritional value. Some grass Cah ration are not 2/3 to 1...like you would want to prevent UC. 
http://bunniesinneed.net/hay-nutritional-value-chart/


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## Tmaxson (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks for posting this.  I was wondering about giving my goats boss.  I had heard so much about it, but wanted to do some research first.  What about giving it to chickens?  Any benefit?


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## madcow (Feb 20, 2013)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I have noticed that a lot of people on hear add BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds) to their goats feed and wondered if anyone has looked up the calcium/phosphorus ratio. It is *extremely* out of balance. The ratio is 1 to 13. See below.
> I have a friend that started givinga handful of BOSS to all of his show goats along with their regular feed. Within a week all of his bucks and buck kids were suffering from a major case of UC.
> I'm not saying BOSS is bad just to be careful.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on what nutritional analysis you reference.  Here's the one I found: http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/black-oil-sunflower-seeds.html (I know it's concerning horses, but I was referencing strictly the nutritional analysis not the information  pertaining to horses)

Mineral Amount 
(per 1 lb) Mineral Amount 
(per 1 lb) 
_Calcium 527.43 mg _
Copper 7.96 mg 
Iron 30.82 mg 
Magnesium 1609.57 mg 
Manganese 9.22 mg 
_Phosphorus 3205.50 mg _
Potassium 3132.75 mg 
Selenium 270.53 mcg 

This would make the Ca(calcium) to pH (phosphorus) ratio 1:6 (527.43 mg divided into 3205.50 mg) .  Recommended is 1:4 to 4:1 and goats can tolerate up to 7:1.  Still seems low to me.  My goats have had no ill effects from feeding about 1 cup a day of BOSS.  It's mostly fiber with a good dose of extra calcium for lactating does. I did ask my vet about it and he says it would be fine and won't upset their digestion as would grains, since there's so much fiber in it and the seed is more protein than carbohydrate. It has a helping of selenium also.

Source referenced:  http://www.goatworld.com/nutrition/majorormacrominerals.shtml

I've feed it to my chickens for years and they love it.  What the chicken eats nutritionally affects the eggs themselves in a miniscule way.  Dietary inconsistencies affect the animal and their ability to reproduce in some cases, such as with chickens.  Lack of calcium can be a big problem for laying hens.  BOSS can be a good source of extra calcium for laying hens.  But if you are feeding a balanced diet to begin with a little extra calcium won't make that much difference one way or the other, unless you have deficient birds to begin with and are attempting to bring them into better condition through dietary optimization.  

You never want to throw the balance of your feeding program out of proportion by giving too much of a good thing with any animals.  My chickens get it more as a treat, because their diet is easy to throw out of wack.  You can upset the balance of a good feeding program by giving too many treats of any kind.  I would think the same would be true of goats also.  

I believe that any dietary changes you make with animals, albeit goats, chickens, or whatever, especially those that have very easily upset pH, should have dietary changes made slowly so that the body can assimilate and purge excess minerals and toxins gradually.  I would think that if you make changes too quickly you may be asking for trouble in the beginning until they adjust to it.  Probably depends on the goats and what they are used to at that point.


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## babsbag (Feb 20, 2013)

I thought it was 2:1 that we are shooting for?

So is a higher calcium better than higher phosphorous?


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## madcow (Feb 20, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> I thought it was 2:1 that we are shooting for?
> 
> So is a higher calcium better than higher phosphorous?


Recommended is 1:4 to 4:1 and goats can tolerate up to 7:1. Per goatworld.com


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 20, 2013)

In the area of 2:1 is best for goats. If anything give higher Ca NOT higher P. High P is what causes UC and goats can take higher amounts of Ca but not higher amounts of P.


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## babsbag (Feb 20, 2013)

madcow said:
			
		

> Recommended is 1:4 to 4:1


??  Those two ratios are exact opposites. 

I was feeding my wether and buck wheat hay which turned out to be 1:2. I lost the wether to UC. Put the buck back on alfalfa


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## DonnaBelle (Feb 20, 2013)

I have Nubian dairy goats, big ones, LOL.

I only feed my buck and wether a dairy goat high protein feed.  They each get two cups twice a day.    And lots of hay and brouse.

I take 3 gallon bucket of dairy goat high protein feed, mix 2 cups of calf manna and 2 cups of BOSS in and feed this to my new Mothers who are nursing kids.  Each doe gets 4 cups of this feed twice a day.

Of course, the Moms are getting plenty of good hay, free choice and fresh water.

I monitor the condition of all my goats closely.  I feel them all over, and sit and observe them, twice a day.  I lurv my goats and this is a joy for me so I make sure they have what they need to keep them healthy.

In August of 2012 I gave each one of my adult Nubians one Copasure bolus, and they really look great.  Of course, free choice Manna Pro minerals every day.  They are eating a lot of mineral right now. A LOT.

DonnaBelle


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## Renegade (Feb 20, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> In the area of 2:1 is best for goats. If anything give higher Ca NOT higher P. High P is what causes UC and goats can take higher amounts of Ca but not higher amounts of P.


Exactly. Thank you Straw Hat.
Anything lower then 2:1 is never recommended for goats. You usually will not see a problem when feeding high phosphorus to does but when fed to bucks/wethers it's a disaster waiting to happen whether it's 1:4 or 1:13. Since BOSS is a natural product each bag will vary with it's analysis but will always be too high in phosphorus.

Donna


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 20, 2013)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Straw Hat Kikos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. I'm not sure about all this 4:1 and 1:4 stuff but to make things simple. IDEALLY goats should have 2:1 Ca to P ratio. It's ok and fine to have more Ca in their diet (that's why Alfalfa is so good for them and does not mess with goats even though it's real high in Ca) but it is not ok to have higher P. As said above, does can take more of it but it is still not ideal but for bucks it is very dangerous to have high levels of P in their diet. So if feeding BOSS be SURE you can balance it out because that ratio is a disaster waiting to happen. And if you feed very little feed (as I do) and only grass hay (as I do) then BOSS is the worst thing in the world for you because you have no way to balance it out and your goats will get UC and could die.


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## Renegade (Feb 20, 2013)

madcow said:
			
		

> babsbag said:
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> 
> 
> ...


I went to Goatworld and what I found was:

_Feed rations that contain a calcium to phosphorus ratio of at least 2:1 (up to 4:1) and never below 1:1
High calcium diets are effective at reducing absorbtion of phosphorus from the GI tract_



Donna


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## DonnaBelle (Feb 20, 2013)

Donna,

What do you feed your wethers?

Also, at what age do you wether them?

DonnaBelle


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## Renegade (Feb 20, 2013)

Hey DonnaBelle,

I pretty much deal exclusively with show and breeding stock so it's been forever since I've had a wether. When I did I used the same ADM Meat Goat feed I use now.

Donna


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