# TAIL DOCKING:not normal practice,but an alternate approach.



## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 24, 2011)

G'day and thanks for dropping by....................CAUTION:This topic contains concepts and approaches that will irritate the "hell" out of the "breed society's".

   This concept was developed to overcome what "I" saw as management issue IE, the need to 'pull lambs'.................As I see it the factors that are the root cause of the problem are several.

                           The severing of the muscle and ligaments from the hip to the tail proper.

                            The build-up of 'fat' in the area of the 'birth canal.

 It is 'normal practice' to keep the ewe's condition 'going forward' in the latter part of the pregnancy,so the ewe is 'strong' enough in herself and to ensure adequate milk supply....If you look at the "old breeds" and especially the Hair breeds" from the Middle East and North Africa,you will see that excess condition (ie:fat) is stored in the Tail..........When you sever the tail the animal responds to this by storing the fat as close as it can to the normal storage area..IE: Externally between the 'tail butt and the pin bones'..Because of this the 'birth canal is "obstructed",in the normal course of birthing the 'muscles" relax and stretch to allow the passage of the lamb down the birth canal............Now the storage of external fat (which does not relax or stretch) narrows the birth canal increasing the risk  of slow progress and thereby exhausting both the ewe and the lamb...This has been exasabated by breeders who produce "square shouldered" rams.I am sure that over the years most of you would have come across a ewe lambing and found the head and front legs out .but the shoulders have halted progress.

 When you remove the tail you also take away the ewe's ability to direct the lambs head down to follow the 'line' of the birth canal,you may have noticed that as soon as a lambs head is out it tends to 'lift it',which restricts progress of the rest of the lamb.

 Some years ago I started using the practice of 'docking ewe's tail long,up to 5 ins(much to the 'disgust of my wife,who says its not normal to dock them this way)on our ewe lambs(rams are a bit shorter) and along with the breeding of "smooth-shouldered rams"has meant that we 'do not' have to pull lambs and in the event we do that ewe and any lambs  are 'culled'...................We lamb in open paddocks of around 10/15 acres in size and the disruption caused to the rest of the flock by having to 'catch' a lambing ewe (bearing in mind our sheep are NOT pets),our sheep do not rush up to us when they see us but usually head in the opposite direction and I muster with my to Kelpie Dogs.

 I have developed these systems to overcome what I saw as a management and economic issue .There is no scientific basis for this approach except it "works" for me and our flock......Another point to remember is that our stock are only "Grass Fed" and only tend to store 'fat' internally a point which is 'much' appreciated by our 'ethic' customers because 'grain fed' fat,especially Corn produces what they consider an 'offensive smell' during cooking.

 That concludes another "novel",as always, comments ,questions ,positive or negative will be answered to the best of my ability.(be aware I do not have a Degree in Agri or Science ,so be gentle LOL)

 ..........................................................T.O.R...............................


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 24, 2011)

That's an interesting concept that I've not heard before.  I hadn't really thought about the fat being stored in the tail, though I do know that overweight ewes are much more likely to have issues.  

I hate the ultra short docking being done by many people, mainly those who show sheep.  I prefer to dock at the end of the tail fold.  I really do think sheep were created with tails so removing them does affect them, so if we can dock them at a reasonble point that still allows for normal functions to occur we're (and they're) better off.  

I definitely think docking too short increases prolapses and also prevents them from being able to direct manure away from their body.  

I do think that docking is important (at least in my area) in wooly breeds because of the fly strike issue.  


So I have a question for you, TOR.  I'm not arguing at all, just wondering about a few things.  You crutched your ewes because of fly issues, but do you think that if you'd docked shorter you wouldn't have those issues?  Or was it a particularly bad year?  

And do you think the time saved by having fewer dystocias is worth having to crutch every sheep?  If you don't have to crutch every year, I could see it being beneficial to do long docks, but if you're having to crutch every year, that certainly takes longer per sheep than docking does.  

Just curious.


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## Bossroo (Feb 24, 2011)

When I was in High School then College, I worked at University of California Davis.  I worked first in the Sheep Ag. Dept.We had over 1000 ewes of different breeds,Suffolk, Hampshire, Southdown, Ramboulet, Corriedale, Targee, and other exotics. I also had a herd of 120 rams of diffferent breeds for behavior/ fertility research., then Vet. Pathology Dept. performing/ teaching necropsies of all animals and research/ surgeries. I also had my own sheep herd of 200 ewes, Suffolk, and Ramboulet. I was also a partner in a Blood/ Serum/ Antibody production  research lab including Dr. Clyde Stormont where we  did the original research leading to blood typing first in sheep, then cattle, horses, and finaly humans. The only birthing problem we ever experienced was with the broad shouldered Hampshire ewes.  We always used a 1/2 inch board as a spacer placed firmly against the lamb's butt ( lamb held by it's 4 legs and it's butt placed on a table) and a hot iron to dock the tails of lambs- newborn  up to a week old. The best ram lambs from the best producing ewes we kept intact , while most of the ram lambs were castrated at this time too. We also used a Burdezo rubber band placed about 1/2 inch from the butt if we only had just a few lambs to dock at a time. The tail stubs grew to only about 2+/- inches when mature. This was plenty long to raise the tail stub to deficate/ urinate. This leangh helped to limit messy rear ends and flystrike in most but the longest wooled and therefore messiest individuals on new/ rich pastures which we then crotched.  No lambing difficulties to speak of except with some broad shouldered Hampshire or with a few ewes when they were  bred to a Hampshire ram, which we had to pull out. I have never seen any extra fat buildup in the birth canal or rump external fat with this practice. Over fat ewes , Yes, Fat rumped Eastern Sheep, Yes. Long tailed ewes, quite a few, Yes. Extreamely short docked tails, Yes in quite a few. All others short docked 1-3" , No. The short tails also makes it much easier to ID the ewe lambs from the weathers/ rams when sorting  them down the chutes at weaning/ sale time. My Kelpie ( too much Dingo) worked great in corrals, not so much in the pastures.The Border collie, and Mc Nabb worked very well in both. My McNabb was also a very good pheasant hunting dog, fabulous guard dog, and also had his very own pet cat  as well.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 24, 2011)

G'day again and thank you both for your posts.I will endeavor to answer your questions  and most likely ask Bossroo a few.

  Katie first,Thank you for your reply and I would never take a question as an augment.My reason for crutching is that our pastures respond very quickly to a rain event.This 'flush' of fresh feed usually results in a loosening of the bowel movement in "some" of the stock and this attracts the 'flys' ,but the majority of 'strike' is in the hip and shoulders and the 'runs' are down to the flanks............Our sheep tend to be very 'broad' across the rump and moisture has a habit of collecting in this area and so makes it an ideal spot for 'strike' to occur...........Because we 'winter shear',by the time we get to summer the sheep are carrying 6 mths wool ,so regardless of tail length we would have to crutch them.

  It may be of interest to you that in the 'tropic's they shear twice a year in an effort to reduce the flystrike problem rather than "shower spray/dip " the sheep which leaves 'chemical residue in the wool.

 Bossroo:I should have know that you would be the one with the "scientific ' background.LOL....One of the reasons I started down this path was that I noticed when handling the sheep that the tail area was a pretty good indicator of the animals condition ,I found that in 'good feed times'it was hard to feel the bones in the tail ,but as soon as conditions started to "go off" this extra condition was the first to go...... One of the things I have noticed over the years is that the "bare area" on the underside of the tail 'varies ' quite a deal and I am tempted to start to select 'for this trait' of a larger than normal stretch of bare skin.(but at nearly 69,I fear the research may take a few more years than the time I have left "sheep farming")

 The problem with wool stain does not seem to be at the anus ,but on the 'leg wool 'lower down the hock...Your other point about the 'back fat ,I did not infer that the fat was" in " the birth canal,but was between the muscles and the skin and that is why it restricted the muscle relaxing process.

 Your comment on lambing were interesting ,but if you compare the structure of 'modern sheep'(take the Suffolk as an example) in an effort to produce 'bigger body's of meat',they have not only put 'far' to much leg under them ,but have increased the forequater width to such an extent that if you speak to stud masters they may admit(if you are lucky)that they pull a lot more lambs these days......

 I'm glad you are a 'fan ' of the Kelpie,but there are two distinct types of Kelpie,one is a "casting dog" like the Border Collie,but the other is 'bred for ' "Yard/Corral work",I have taken advantage of this trait of 'working behind the stock and there great 'covering ability' to help me in a paddock situation ,as I said before our sheep 'hate ' me and will run a mile,so the 'driving and cover works great for me especially at 'gateways ' and in forcing yards/paddocks.







Thank you both again for taking the time to respond,I'm hoping for some more comments/responses on this topic...............T.O.R...........


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## TheSheepGirl (Feb 24, 2011)

A friend of mine docks long, about 4" on some ewes. My ewes are docked long as well. I've found that the only part that needs to be removed is the fluff at the end of the tail on up tot he skin section of the underside of the tail. If you remove the tail up to the skin section, the ewes should be just fine. 

Crutching should be done regardless around lambing time. It is a common practice among sheep raisers and is very important if your ewes have any amount of wool around the rump. to keep them clean and increase visibility at lambing time.


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## Beekissed (Feb 24, 2011)

Another reason I love the hair breeds, which leave both docking and crutching problems of the woollies.  

I noticed just how much my hair sheep used their tales~much like horses and cattle~ to swish away flies.  I couldn't imagine removing that ability and making them suffer through the summer.  

I also noticed how having an intact tail helped them direct manure away from their peri area.  

Another great thing about having hair breeds was the ability to control breeding/lambing times to better coincide with spring lambing/good weather vs. lambing when it is still cold enough to even need heavy wool growth.    

Great post, TOR...quite well thought out and informative!


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 24, 2011)

G'day and thank you SheepGirl for "coming out"(so to speak) on this topic ,your reply has really lifted "my" spirits as in the past I have been subjected to "all manner" of strange looks  from other 'sheep people' down here,when I told them about this practice.......................Years ago before we started Spring lambing,I used to 'belly shear and crutch' at 12 weeks in,so the lamb could easily find the 'teat' and keep the rear end clean and tidy............We changed to "full shearing" at 12 weeks because if the weather turned 'sour' the ewe will seek shelter and take her lambs with her,because its the wind more than the rain which "kills " new lambs.

 Hey Bossroo,found a photo of a pup I bred ,who,at 16 weeks was quite capable of handling young ewe's in the yards.












Hope you enjoy ,hoping some other members will submit a view on the topic,regards ..T.O.R..............


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 24, 2011)

Hey Bee kissed,you are SO right ,if I was 40 again(I WISH)I would convert the whole flock over............T.O.R.

PS: Thank you for the kind comments about the posts....................


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 25, 2011)

Bee, I know you love your hair sheep, but those problems of the wool breeds you mentioned are easily avoidable.   Many people lamb early because of the market, but it's absolutely possible for wool breeds to lamb out in late spring. Heck, my darn southdown didn't lamb until June last year because of issues out of my control (and hers ).  They can be sheared before lambing, which would fix the need to crutch. Some breeds (like TOR's Suffolks) don't have very valuable wool, but in a lot of wool breeds the wool is equally important as the lambs (well, almost equally important) because it can be marketed many ways...as whole fleeces, as roving, yarn, blankets, sheepskin, etc.  There's a farm near us that sells lamb, and then turns around and sells their lovely hides for upwards of $100!  

I like hair sheep too, but I love my wool sheep.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 25, 2011)

TOR- I'm loving the pictures of your dogs!  There's nothing like the look of satisfaction on a worn out working dog's face after a hard day's work.  They're grinning from ear to ear. 

I don't have sheep, but interesting thread folks!


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## Bossroo (Feb 25, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day again and thank you both for your posts.I will endeavor to answer your questions  and most likely ask Bossroo a few.
> 
> Katie first,Thank you for your reply and I would never take a question as an augment.My reason for crutching is that our pastures respond very quickly to a rain event.This 'flush' of fresh feed usually results in a loosening of the bowel movement in "some" of the stock and this attracts the 'flys' ,but the majority of 'strike' is in the hip and shoulders and the 'runs' are down to the flanks............Our sheep tend to be very 'broad' across the rump and moisture has a habit of collecting in this area and so makes it an ideal spot for 'strike' to occur...........Because we 'winter shear',by the time we get to summer the sheep are carrying 6 mths wool ,so regardless of tail length we would have to crutch them.
> 
> ...


Other than the very obese or very thin sheep... I found that when we run the sheep down a chute , we could very easily reach for the 2" tail stump/ tail base area, we could very rapdly tell how much fat the sheep was carrying. Also run one's hand along the backbone and over the rib area. Many of the Suffolk here have very little wool on their bellys so they only need to be tagged on their rear ends only. Your comment regarding the "bare area" on the underside of  the tail. I assume that you are referring of the fecal matter that then acccumulatess on the tail wool of the lower portion of the tail.  I would think that that would be solved with a shorter docking of the tail resulting in about 2".                    Other than in obese or very thin ewes, I see very little cooralation between the layer of fat between the muscle and skin to the muscle relaxing process.  However it is a function of hormones to relax the muscles then to start the uterine constrictions to expell the embryos. Most difficulties in birthing is often due to the size difference (in volume and weight  and shoulder structure) of the fetus and the birth canal volume. Several years ago a friend baught a Suffolk ram that was head and shoulders, long and lean and  larger than all of their other rams and weighed over 350 pounds. All of his offspring were then noticably larger that from the other rams and the ewes had more difficulty lambing. Other considerations would be the forage type the ewes are eating that may influence their hormone production influencing the muscle raxing process.The amount of body fat in the ewe is actually a store reserve for milk production to nurish the rapidly growing lambs especially if the grass/ forage production is lower.             3 years ago, my accross the street neighbor, owns 35  range Suffolk ewes and 12 Ramboulett ewes, 1- 2 year old Suffolk ram and baught 1 Dorper yearling ram. He ran all of them together in one breeding group.  90% of the lambs turned out to be Dorper X. They were born almost 2/3  the size of the Suffolk sired ones, with no lambing problems at all. He also had a 20% increase in the number of twins born over previous years. These lambs ran circles arount the Suffolk sired ones. He noticed that these lambs not only ate the pasture grasses but the weeds as well that the other sheep wouldn't touch. Also, much more docile and easier to handle. Man was he disappointed at first, untill weaning time when the Dorper sired lambs out weighed the Suffolk sired ones by about 10+ pounds each. He butchered many lambs on his ranch eather himself or by the Arab buyers who did their own ritual killing/ butchering. Their carcasses had a much better meat to bone ratio and a very good marbling. Then his smiles became even broader when his customers of Mexican and Arab decent prefered the Dorper sired lambs and then told their friends who then put their names on a waiting list for these crossbred lambs for the following year. He sold the Suffolk ram and baught 10 ( and looking for more)  Dorper ewes as he had to satisfy the new additional customer demands.                                                               My Kelpie was a light sandy color ( Dingo) with white markings. She was a great corral dog.  My McNab ( Tom) resembled your dog on the right.  He was the smartest and best working  dog I ever owned. I was given him by a sheep sheerer when he was only about 4 weeks old. He started out as Tom, then as he got older and started to display his smarts/ working ability and then worth, he started to acquire new names untill he became known as Thomas, J. McNab, Esquire !


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 28, 2011)

G,day Bossroo,in the short time we have been on this forum I have learned to expect and respect your opinions and views ,thank you ,again for a well thought out and considered post.

 Your obvious  scientific background comes through and on more than "one "occasion you have had me reaching for the dictionary,so I can get an understanding of your words.

On the topic of Mineral Mystery's,it would be of value to me if you could put forward an opinion on the subject.

  Thanks again .................................T.O.R.


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