# First kids born, but no milk from mom?



## VKat (Jan 28, 2015)

My one year old doe gave birth to twins yesterday. My first time and hers! 
Nigerian Dwarfs
One baby boy at 2.95 lbs
One doeling at 3.55 lbs

But mom's udder never did get full and tight. She had some development, but not much more than a handful. There is hardly any milk in there it seems. The kids are having a hard time, especially the smaller boy. He cries a lot and tries to nurse, then drops off, and tries and stops... 
I checked their little stomachs and they are not round. 
I checked mom's udder this morning hoping her milk may have come in overnight- feels just like it did a day or so before she went into labor- some development but not full. 

I am worried about the kids. I do have MannaPro "kid colostrum supplement", and also "Kid milk replacer". Both of these are powdered form. I have no experience with this, but grabbed some when I found out my goat was pregnant just to have in hand in case.
Should I give this to them?

Just for background info- I got this mother doe already pregnant. She is basically a rescued animal that came from someone's small backyard and was being fed nothing but corn and rabbit pellets. So I worried already about the babies being at risk for health issues. We had no way of knowing how far along she was since they had her running with a buck all the time there. 
I have had her eating Dumor goat pellets, loose minerals, and second cut hay, plus some alfalfa.

And just so this post isn't all questions- here's a look at them


----------



## Southern by choice (Jan 28, 2015)

Have you milked out the teat? Are they "clogged" or is the colostrum just too thick for them to get out?
Try all you can to get that colostrum out of her and give to the kids.
Replacers are not great. IMO Better to use whole cows milk from the grocery store. Heat to 100-105 degrees. Bottle feed them. But I would still try to work on moms udder.


----------



## Sweetened (Jan 28, 2015)

What beautiful babies! Sorry youre having trouble.

If you have it on hand, id start supplememting the colostrum. Maybe keep them on her in case she comes into milk, but id supplement. Sounds like one is taking all the milk, perhaps she doesnt have enough to raise both?

Ive read a couple posts here over the past couple years of people who have goats or lambs the kid and dont get milk for a week! I havent had that trouble save for a doe who aborted late term twins and she didnt bag up until a day later. Milked her out once and she never made another drop.

Good luck, keep us posted and follow the mix instructions carefully!!


----------



## Sweetened (Jan 28, 2015)

Also forgot to mention, when we bottlefed our lambs, the lady told us she wont use powdered replaver because they always bloat up and she loses them. I used 3% milk mixed with whipping cream (the liquid stuff) as whole milk isnt sold in stores here, 1 egg to a 1 liter bottle and some honey.


----------



## Bucking Adoeable Fainters (Jan 28, 2015)

Many congratulations on your twins. And well done helping this poor mama! 

Agreed with southern and sweetened. Milk MAY come in. She is young and a FF, she may need time. But i would supplement also. Especially that buckling. I would also give him some nutri-drench if he is weak. Idk if you are B or Selenium deprived in your area, may need also.

Best of luck, keep us posted. And again congratulations!


----------



## bloonskiller911 (Jan 28, 2015)

They are great looking kids.  Good luck.  I hope everything works out.  could her bag have still be small because of the larger kid drinking the milk and her not producing enough.  We give our nursing nannies, an oz of calf manna pro pellets the first four days and we up their feed ration by a half cup to help with milk production, it takes a lot out of them.  Keep us posted on how they are doing!!


----------



## goats&moregoats (Jan 28, 2015)

Southernx2.  Good luck and please keep us posted


----------



## VKat (Jan 28, 2015)

First off, THANK YOU guys so much! I am brand new to all of this, and your input is so valuable!



Southern by choice said:


> Have you milked out the teat? Are they "clogged" or is the colostrum just too thick for them to get out?
> Try all you can to get that colostrum out of her and give to the kids.
> Replacers are not great. IMO Better to use whole cows milk from the grocery store. Heat to 100-105 degrees. Bottle feed them. But I would still try to work on moms udder.



I did give them a nice squeeze and saw milk come out easily after the babies were dried off yesterday. So there should be no clogs. I also tried to express milk since then, and only got some going on one side.



Sweetened said:


> Also forgot to mention, when we bottlefed our lambs, the lady told us she wont use powdered replaver because they always bloat up and she loses them. I used 3% milk mixed with whipping cream (the liquid stuff) as whole milk isnt sold in stores here, 1 egg to a 1 liter bottle and some honey.



That's why I hesitate so much to just give them some bottle and let them keep trying to nurse with mom. I read that some people say the powdered stuff can cause more trouble. It's all I have on hand though 

Do you guys think I should give just a little bit of the powder colostrum supplement for now?
Or wait until I can get some whole milk and additional supplies tonight?
I hate the idea of them going hungry and getting weak! Poor babies! But I don't want to cause them any extra issues either.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Jan 28, 2015)

We bottle feed almost all of ours here on whole cows milk alone.  If she has no milk, get a few ounces of warm whole milk.  If you have NONE and say can't get to the store until tomorow, the powder might do but I too have tried it and had scours---a baby with diarrhea is scary.  Plus, the supplement is not the same as a replacer and honestly, doing whole milk is so so much easier and worked better.  No need to do any mixing either.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Jan 28, 2015)

Oh yeah--and x2 and checking that udder.  Should be milk if her udder is tight.


----------



## babsbag (Jan 28, 2015)

What cuties. I need to ask a question...do you know how to milk? Getting the milk out can be a trick if you have never done this before, especially if she has little teats. If you don't know how to milk, look online, you will find descriptions a lot better than what I can tell you.

x2 on the whole cow's milk. Skip the replacer. If you don't think they got any colostrum at all I might be tempted to give some of that to them, but not the milk replacer. If you know any other goat or sheep people sometimes you might find someone that has some frozen colostrum.

Good luck with them.


----------



## bloonskiller911 (Jan 29, 2015)

Any update?


----------



## VKat (Jan 29, 2015)

Hi guys! Wow it's been busy here's an update.
Her udder is not tight. It hasn't filled with much. I do know how to milk, and did manage to express some by hand. It came out very easily, but there's hardly any. 
I gave a very small amount of that colostrum supplement to the small boy kid. He was not looking good, and that was all I had. My husband found organic, grass fed cow milk. It's "cream line" whole milk, and was low temp pasteurized so it still has some enzymes in it. The same store does sell goat milk that is also like this, but you have to reserve a bottle. There is goat milk at another store but it is ultra-pasteurized so maybe not as good. 

The boy took to the bottle, and I fed in very small amounts at first. He eats some and stops on his own, so I think he is regulating himself. After the third feeding he became a different goat!
He stopped crying and falling over. He became steadier on his legs and even was playful! It's amazing!
He still suckles on mom, and I think that's good. I keep hoping it will help stimulate her to produce, and anything they can get from her is better than anything I can put in a bottle.
I was offering the bottle every few hours. I also was showing it to the doeling and getting her to swallow a mouthful just in case. She wasn't very into it. 

Today mom goat still has a small udder.  The baby boy is looking better, taking bottle feedings and also still trying to nurse from mom.  Although he seems to spend more time head butting her udder than nursing. 
When I offered the doeling the bottle, she guzzled down milk like a starving beast. 
I feel bad for them because I don't want them to go hungry, but keep hoping their mom can take care of them... I'm starting to wonder if her milk will ever come in.

People on another forum told me that if the babies take the bottle that means they are hungry. If they were getting fed from mom they wouldn't be interested. I felt their tummies and they are not round. 

I'm not sure what will happen around here. I guess I am going to continue offering the bottle every 3 hours or if the kids cry, and leave them with mom and hope for the best. She is very attentive to them and it is very sweet to see how she cleans them and lays down next to them. 

I am starting to think this momma goat may be at a disadvantage from past improper care. She is a rescue goat that was already pregnant when we got her. The people were feeding her on corn and rabbit pellets. So I was worried about nutritional deficiencies causing problems with the kids.  Maybe it caused a problem for mom?  Her rumen is not what books describe as well developed either.  She is sort of svelte for a goat. Could lack of proper feeding during her first year have done her damage?

Is there anything more I can do to help mom make milk?
And are there any more things I can give the kids to ensure they are as healthy as possible?

Thank you guys so much for the help!


----------



## babsbag (Jan 29, 2015)

Good for them taking a bottle, that is a huge step and if they are still trying to nurse on mom then they are probably getting some colostrum so that is good news too. 

I don't know what you pay for creamline milk, but honestly the stuff that most people drink, homogenized and pasteurized, is just fine and this can get to be expensive if you end up feeding them for the entire 8-10 weeks.

To increase milk just make sure she is getting a good grain supplement, maybe some BOSS, and if you want there are some herbal supplements you can try. Fir Meadows has one called Mo-milk (I think), but I can't vouch for it.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 1, 2015)

Babies are very cute and sounds like mama is doing the best she can.  Good job in feeding them and they should do fine with your help   Mama may never be able to feed them with her history this go around.  You are being a good goat nanny!


----------



## jodief100 (Feb 1, 2015)

I would feed just plain pasteurized, whole vitamin D milk.  A baby will need 30-40 gallons to get to weaning and creamline milk will get very expensive fast. Feed 3 times a day,as much as they want.  They don't need every few hours, 3 times a day is fine.  Good luck with them.  It may be best for the momma to not feed the babies and hopefully get her in better shape.


----------



## VKat (Feb 4, 2015)

Kid and Mom UPDATE:
Wow a lot has happened since my last post!
First off, the kids are doing great 
Also worthy of note, we built our own milking pump for mom. Remembering my experience as a provider for a newborn, I used a pump and it helped a lot. Anyway, it was slow going at first. We were having trouble with mom not wanting to eat much. She wanted pellets, but was not eating hay, then wasn't finishing pellets and that had me really worried. Her temp and everything is okay. I'm giving her alfalfa along with a calcium supplement. She just didn't want to eat :/

Then she was ignoring one the kids, the smaller boy baby, and stopped cleaning the doe.
I put her outside for a bit so I could clean, and behold! She was eating hay!
Since then I have let her stay outside. She started eating more normally, and I am slowly increasing her grain ration to help make milk. I also got some calf manna upon suggestion.
She is getting fed twice daily, and I milk her twice daily. Her milk is increasing! Yesterday I got 2 cups from her total. A vast improvement over the 1/2 cup total the first day.

The pump is based on the Henry Milker I saw online. We made sure to use food rated plastic tubing, and the milk goes directly from mom into a clean mason jar. Which makes it easy to store and have on hand to pour into bottles. I've been mixing the whole milk in just to bulk it out and fill tummies.

I feel weird about having her away from the kids, but it seems to be working out better this way.
The kids are being offered bottles every 3 hours, sometimes more if the boy is crying. He seems to not eat much at one time.
I also realize that all babies need affection and touch stimulation to thrive. So I have been spending a lot of time with them. I rub and pet them. I take a warm washcloth and clean them like a mom animal would. (I picked up this up working with abandoned kittens) The boy has instantly bonded to me I think. He loves to be rubbed and leans into my hand. It has taken coaxing to get him to toilet. He has initially seemed to strain to go, but that has improved.
The girl eats like a machine! It is amazing how much more energy she puts into nursing than her brother does.
When I leave, they spend most of the time hunkered down and napping. I assume this is a survival instinct. So I try to make sure I spend time after some of the daytime feedings staying with them so they feel safe to play. I feel like I give them a protective presence. They run and jump and try to climb. Watching them get stronger is really neat. I also gave them a heat mat which they like to nap on.
I know that I can not replace all a mother goat would do. But I am hoping it's okay for now.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 4, 2015)

You are doing great and going above and beyond. They are very lucky to have you to care for them. It is great that the doe's milk supply is increasing. A lot does depend on her food and the demand so the more you milk the more she will try and make.

 As far as cleaning them so they go poo, you don't have to do that. They go on their own with not help from us or their mom. Thank goodness for that.


----------



## VKat (Feb 4, 2015)

Really?  *insert my sigh of relief here* 
I worry I'm not doing the right things since this is all new to me. I really appreciate the advice and feedback. Thank you!
Now that the boy is going no problem, I haven't been cleaning him as much. 
The doeling's eyes get crusty a little. I think it is from dust from the bedding. So I clean her little face.
And of course, they get lots of petting and scritches. 

I just finished their noon feeding and stayed with them while they played like crazy! 
The boy is starting to eat more per meal.  We weighted them yesterday since that was one week. 
boy was 2.95 lbs, now 4.6 lbs
girl was 3.55 lbs, now 5.2 lbs

Are there guidelines for healthy weight gain? I'd love to be able to know if they are on track.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 4, 2015)

I don't really know how much a goat should gain as I never weigh mine. As long as they are eating and playing I am good with that, I also raise Alpines so they are much bigger than yours so of course they eat more too. I don't feed mine as often either, but again, they are bigger kids. I only feed 3x a day. I usually dam raise, but there are always those times.

Here is an article by one of the best when it comes to bottle raising. You are doing great but more information never hurts.
http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=586


----------



## VKat (Feb 10, 2015)

Thanks! Yes, the more info, the better.


----------



## VKat (Feb 10, 2015)

Here's an update. Thank you all so much for the advice. I do have another question again.

The kids are doing great. Eating well, and nibbling on hay. 
Mom goat is eating better and giving us about 2 and 1/2 cups of milk for them a day.  I have started adding a handful of calf manna to her pellets and she seems to like it. 

I am keeping them both, and we have agreed to castrate the male so he can continue to grow up and run and play with his sister.  I think it will be better for them since otherwise she would be the only baby around here, and besides I've gotten kinda attached.  The boy continues to be really affectionate with me and love to sit in my lap. How can I not keep him? 

Question time: at what age do you castrate?
what method do you use or recommend?
I am thinking of the Emasculatome method that doesn't involve cutting or a band. 

This question about when is a big one on my mind since the boy has already begun chasing his sister around, making chittering noises at her, and trying to mount her.  I know his equipment can't be functional at only 2 weeks of age (they are 2 weeks today! yay!) but the behavior is a little disturbing, and I don't think it's nice for the poor little doeling to have this unwanted attention. 
I'm reading quite a range on what age is considered best. 
So any input on this would be really appreciated. 
Thanks!


----------



## Sweetened (Feb 10, 2015)

We will castrate this year at 2 months. Last year we left the boys until 6 months and it was hell. Kept them out on tethers to stay away frpm the girls and OH the stink. One or two bucks is one thing but 4 is a plague cloud!

We also band. I cant bring myself to use a burdizzo or enasculator, i would want them sedated out of their mindd, but thats a vet visit and i might as well have her cut them off. We banded successfully at 6 months, though fitting them in the calf bander was a chore and a half. Its easy, they mope for a day and walk funny for a day or two and then are fine. If they wdre done younger, it would have been faster, but we had no issues.


----------



## Sweetened (Feb 10, 2015)

Also, dont emasculators involve blood? Theyre a burdizzo and a cutter in one if i remember correctly. Testes are slit, nuts are pulled, crunched and cut. Burdizzos do it through the sack, which i feel like theres more trauma and room for error but some people swear by them.

Bands are bloodless, and we watched and checked them weekly to make sure bands were still attached as thats where issues arise.


----------



## madcow (Feb 10, 2015)

I've banded all my wethers at 2 weeks with no problems.  Just did a whole batch of bucklings with a friend and they were all around a month old.  They've done fine.  The only problem we had was with them pulling a single testicle into their groin area, simply because it was cold outside, and not being able to retract it to get it into the band along with the other.  Usually one person holds them upside down by their hind legs and another person then has easy access to the groin area and the testicles and is able to band them quickly.  This time because of the testicular retraction problem we had to hold them down on their side and that would make everything be in it's proper place for banding.   I too think banding is the way to go.


----------



## VKat (Feb 10, 2015)

Emasculators don't involve cutting. At least according to Fiasco Farms info.  People have directed me to their site for good care info a lot, so I thought I'd see what they do.  i'd love to read more info if you guys have recommendations? 
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/buck-wether-info.htm#burdizzo

What is the safest method for the animal?  We were thinking banding could run risk of issues if a band breaks or something. 

I do want to take care of this early, but not so early he may have the higher risk of urinary issues. 
We are thinking maybe between 4 and 6 weeks?
Does that right for a Nigerian Dwarf?


----------



## babsbag (Feb 10, 2015)

I band them at about 8 weeks or sometimes 12 weeks, just depends on when I get around to it. Banding is quick and easy; just make sure you get both testicles in there before releasing. I sit down on the ground and I grab the kid and sit them down on their butt between my legs. They can't move, and everything is easy to find and close at hand.


----------



## jodief100 (Feb 11, 2015)

We band and it is the easiest.  You should wait until he is at least 8 weeks, 12 is best.  The longer you can wait the better.  Wethers are very susceptible to UC and the larger the urethra is allow to grow the less chance they have of getting UC.   It will stop growing once he is castrated.   His equipment isn't functional till at least 12 weeks and then only in very rare ases.  The chasing her around is normal.  All kids do it, even the girls.  It won't hurt her any, to them it is just play.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Feb 11, 2015)

jodief100 said:


> We band and it is the easiest.  You should wait until he is at least 8 weeks, 12 is best.  The longer you can wait the better.  Wethers are very susceptible to UC and the larger the urethra is allow to grow the less chance they have of getting UC.   It will stop growing once he is castrated.   His equipment isn't functional till at least 12 weeks and then only in very rare ases.  The chasing her around is normal.  All kids do it, even the girls.  It won't hurt her any, to them it is just play.



x 2.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Feb 11, 2015)

VKat said:


> Here's an update. Thank you all so much for the advice. I do have another question again.
> 
> The kids are doing great. Eating well, and nibbling on hay.
> Mom goat is eating better and giving us about 2 and 1/2 cups of milk for them a day.  I have started adding a handful of calf manna to her pellets and she seems to like it.
> ...



Banding is best.  Wait until about 12 weeks.
The chittering noises and mounting the sister is normal.  It would be the same with two boys.


----------



## norseofcourse (Feb 11, 2015)

An emasculat*or*  is different from an emasculat*ome*.

An emasculat*or* involves cutting and crushing both, and is used after the scrotal sack is cut open, to both cut off the testes and crush the cords and blood vessels to prevent too much bleeding.

An emasculat*ome* is also known as a Burdizzo, and involves crushing only, and is done without cutting the scrotal sack.  It disrupts the blood supply to the testes and they shrink up.

I plan on using an emasculatome this spring to wether any ram lambs I have.

Very similar names, which make it confusing.


----------

