# 4 Wk old Boy & Girl Siblings having sex?



## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 3, 2011)

I just looked out my window and saw my 4 week old boy on his twin sister. Sure he can't get her pregnant yet, right?  Could he just be imitating my buck mounting my oldest doe? If he really can get her pregnant, what can I do? The twins aren't weaned so I don't want to separate the boy with the wether and buck. We tried to sell the kids but haven't had any luck.

Background:
5 year old doe, CC, nigerian dwarf, kidded for 2nd time June 3 2011, both sold, giving 3 cups of milk per milking
1 year old wether, Hawkey, nigerian dwarf
1 year old doe, Honey, nigerian dwarf, (hawkey's twin), kidded for 1st time June 6 2011, kids kept for now.

4 week old buckling, Polka (half niggie, 1/4 alpine, 1/4 nubian)
4 week old doeling, Dot (same)

New buck, 1-2 years old, half niggie, half la mancha)

As you may know, I'm also on BYC and SS so I'm no stranger, but just now getting around to registering on here. 

Thanks for your help.


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## elevan (Jul 3, 2011)

It's a combination of imitation, practice and dominance.  Make sure you separate him at 7 weeks and wether him (if you intend to) at 8 weeks.  Right now it's harmless...but that'll change before you know it.


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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 3, 2011)

7 weeks.

Got it.  Thanks.  Whew. Can't imagine something that tiny and young already pregnant.


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## elevan (Jul 3, 2011)

The boy is fertile at 7 weeks...the girl is fertile at 8 weeks.  While it's unlikely to become pregnant at 8 wks, it is possible.  And consequences are tragic.

The boy will try to breed back his mom once he is fertile...granted it's gonna be hard for him to "reach" it is possible.

eta: fyi- in the case of accidental breedings there is a hormone you can get from the vet to abort the pregnancy...it's called lutalyse (lute)


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## Ariel301 (Jul 4, 2011)

I had a doeling accidentally bred at four months old a couple of years ago. I didn't terminate the pregnancy and she carried it full term but it was stillborn. (nothing to do with her age, it was an infection) It was really hard on her and stunted her growth. It's not a good situation to be in, so even though it is unusual for doe kids to be fertile so young, I separate the boys from the girls at the first sign of actual attempts to mate (the buckling actually figuring out how to use his equipment, usually about 2-6 months old depending on the buck--they will play-mount starting even at a few days old, and the does will mount the bucks as much as the other way around, that's no big deal until it becomes the "real thing") At four weeks old, he is probably still unable to fully function, so unless you see him actually getting his "equipment" out and using it, it's ok.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 4, 2011)

The young buckling must make the action required for intimacy in order to break a small piece of skin the attaches his penis to his underbelly.  Don't worry, not yet at least.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 4, 2011)

I am so glad that I saw this post, it reminded me that I have to seperate both of our little bucklings this saturday. Even though HighNote is only going to be 4 weeks old, Jack will be 7 weeks.. and since we don't want either of them to seprated by themselves, it seems only right to seperate them both this coming saturday.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 4, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I am so glad that I saw this post, it reminded me that I have to seperate both of our little bucklings this saturday. Even though HighNote is only going to be 4 weeks old, Jack will be 7 weeks.. and since we don't want either of them to seprated by themselves, it seems only right to seperate them both this coming saturday.


Is HighNote bottle fed, or do you mean you're going to wean him?


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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 4, 2011)

So basically I have 3 weeks to neuter the buckling or sell, and 4 weeks to spay, move or sell the doeling. 

I had a separate pen for the boys but using it right now as a cornfield which means it won't be available again for boys for 3 months.

Er, anybody need some goat babies?


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## currycomb (Jul 4, 2011)

where are you located? we are so. illinois


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 4, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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All 4 of the kids are bottle fed(bought 3 kids, Maude{Olivia's mommy} was sold).   boys will be put into their own stall, while the girls will be with Minnie in the common area.  Eventually(before fall) we will have a connected, but seperate, barn for our does.... big enough to accomodate 10 does plus a kidding stall and milking area.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 4, 2011)

FWIW I never worry about separating until 12 weeks (heck, I wean at 8 weeks, and it's not like people rotate buck and doe kids on their mom so they're never together), and even then I'm not panicked about it.  Even if buck kids "try" to breed their sisters or other goats then, it's not likely that they're actually going to be successful AND that the doe kid would be in heat.  Unlikely, IMO.  I'm not saying everyone should feel that way, but it's how I feel.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 4, 2011)

It's not common to spay a doe.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 4, 2011)

After the accidental breeding of our doeling Cali(due to not having the sexes seperated in time), resulting in her & her buckling dying... We prefer to make sure to seperate them at the 7 week mark.  Always better to air on the side of caution, IMO, than to end up losing the resulting kids and/or even worse, the doeling. :/ Ya know?


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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 4, 2011)

currycomb said:
			
		

> where are you located? we are so. illinois


Colorado, on the eastern plains south of Denver.


I really don't have the time or energy or money to build yet another pen to put the buck, wether and now the 4 week old buckling in there.  Maybe closer to the 7 week mark. Will have to see how finances go.


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## elevan (Jul 4, 2011)

MyKidLuvsGreenEgz said:
			
		

> So basically I have 3 weeks to neuter the buckling or sell, and 4 weeks to spay, move or sell the doeling.
> 
> I had a separate pen for the boys but using it right now as a cornfield which means it won't be available again for boys for 3 months.
> 
> Er, anybody need some goat babies?


I don't think I've ever even heard of anyone spaying a doe...

Here's the thing...they both have to be fertile...the doe has to be in heat to be bred...all in all things aren't likely to come together like that completely until they are 12 weeks old or older (like aggieterpkatie said).  If you're unable to separate them and you believe that they have truly bred each other and you're not opposed to animal abortions, then you can take care of the issue 3 weeks after it happens with lutalyse.

4 months old (16 wks) is the youngest that I have "personally" known someone's doeling to be that was bred...the 8 wks fertile imo is possible but highly unlikely.  You'll have to decide what level of risk is acceptable to you and how you plan to deal with the youngsters.  For now, don't panic and enjoy the little troublemakers 

eta:  I didn't separate my twins...just banded the boy at 8 wks.  They are almost 5 months old now and everything is fine.


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## DonnaBelle (Jul 4, 2011)

Golly, I'm sure confused.  Don't wether before 3 mo. if possible.  So gotta keep em away from the girls......

Separate doelings and bucklings at 7 weeks.

I've got a doe that kidded May 21st. with 1 buckling, and 1 doeling.  Can I pull the buckling when he is 7to 8 weeks old and put him in the buck pen with 3  four month old bucklings??

I've also got one more buckling born May 25th also with a sister.    Can I pull him when he is 7 to 8 weeks old and put him in the buck pen with the rest of the boys??   I only feed the bucks in the evening and then only about 2 cups of goat developer before bedtime.  They all brouse all day.

Should I supplement those 2 little boys with a bottle in the am or pm until they are 12 weeks old??   I am supplementing with an evening bottle one little doeling that was really small when born, she took right to the bottle, no problems.

DonnaBelle


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## elevan (Jul 4, 2011)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Golly, I'm sure confused.  Don't wether before 3 mo. if possible.  So gotta keep em away from the girls......
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> Separate doelings and bucklings at 7 weeks.
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It really depends on the attitude of the 4month old bucklings on whether I would put an 8wk old buckling in with them.

The longer you can wait to castrate the better yes...but they can be done at 8 wks and be just fine - I wouldn't castrate any earlier than that.

Goes back to this:  _Ask 10 different people and you'll get 10 different answers.  You have to figure out what you want to do and what risk is acceptable to you._

I just band my boys at 8 wks even though I'd like them to go longer before doing it - I'm just not set up to accommodate separating so many different stages of goats.


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## RareBreedFancier (Jul 4, 2011)

MyKidLuvsGreenEgz said:
			
		

> So basically I have 3 weeks to neuter the buckling or sell, and 4 weeks to spay, move or sell the doeling.
> 
> I had a separate pen for the boys but using it right now as a cornfield which means it won't be available again for boys for 3 months.
> 
> Er, anybody need some goat babies?


Does that mean you have the buck running with both newly kidded does? From what I read on here I thought it was bad to let the doe be re-bred right away?

(Please don't take the question the wrong way, I'm new to goats and just learning here  )


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 5, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> After the accidental breeding of our doeling Cali(due to not having the sexes seperated in time), resulting in her & her buckling dying... We prefer to make sure to seperate them at the 7 week mark.  Always better to air on the side of caution, IMO, than to end up losing the resulting kids and/or even worse, the doeling. :/ Ya know?


It really was a sad thing you lost Cali and her kid, but didn't you find out she didn't get bred when you originally thought?  Wasn't she accidentally bred at a later date?


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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From what I understand Cali would have been more like 4 months at breeding.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 5, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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She settled at a later date than originally thought, but we still believe that she had been bred previously... as she had not gone back in heat for 30 days after she allowed Marly to mount the first time.

Again, we feel it is better to air on the side of caution and seperate at the age of 7 weeks, than to lose another doeling. Especially since bucklings can successfully do the deed at 7-8 weeks old.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 5, 2011)

I've never read 7 weeks... 8 and 10 weeks are pretty common times to separate, but 8 weeks is still pretty early to wean completely.  Why push it by shaving off another week?  For those who dam raise and separate at 7 weeks do you supplement with something?  A bottle, milk pellets, etc.?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 5, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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I think what you're saying actually supports what aggie is pointing out.  As you've said, although there were attempts at breeding the doe didn't actually settle until she was 4 months.  We separate at 8 weeks, but since we bottle raise we don't actually wean the kids at 8 weeks.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 5, 2011)

I will say, after looking at the calendar, that this Saturday will mark 8 weeks for dear little Black*Jack* 

FRor us, weaning will not happen for Jack for another couple of weeks, and HighNote will be roughly another month & 1/2.


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I've never read 7 weeks... 8 and 10 weeks are pretty common times to separate, but 8 weeks is still pretty early to wean completely.  Why push it by shaving off another week?  For those who dam raise and separate at 7 weeks do you supplement with something?  A bottle, milk pellets, etc.?


I dam raise.  I don't separate I just band the boys at 8 weeks.   I'm "willing to risk the week" because I just don't see it as a high risk.

My vet tells me that the males are sexually viable at 7 weeks and the females are sexually viable at 8 weeks...but the next sentence out of his mouth is that he's never seen it happen before and that it seems to only be textbook "lore".  Ergo...I'm not real worried.  Just because it's possible doesn't mean it will happen. But everyone has a different level of risk that they are willing to accept.  Let's say it happens 1 out of 1,000 times (don't know if that's an accurate # or not, just throwing it out there) to me those odds aren't worrisome with a small herd...to someone else they may be.

My boys are all intended to be wethers when born...so they just go to 8 weeks and get banded.  I don't ever remove them from the girls.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I've never read 7 weeks... 8 and 10 weeks are pretty common times to separate, but 8 weeks is still pretty early to wean completely.  Why push it by shaving off another week?  For those who dam raise and separate at 7 weeks do you supplement with something?  A bottle, milk pellets, etc.?


We creep feed and like to see them eating atleast 3% of their body weight in 16% protein pellets before weaning, normally at 8 weeks. Have weaned at 7, but you need to make sure they are eating and independent on hay and grain before weaning this early. Keep in mind, boer goats weigh near 50 to 70lbs at 8 weeks, maybe a couple only at 3o or 35, but I would say the average is 50lbs, so they are eating 1 1/2lbs of creep feed a day.  or about 4 1/2 measuring cups per 50lb goat.  

Perhaps different breeds would need more time.  I just would rather stop dealing with feeding all those does, put them back on pastaure or hay and just put all the feed into the babies.  that is why we wean so early.   And I have seen no difference in weight gain by keeping them on the mom longer.  


We don't remove them from their sisters, either and band sometime between 4 weeks and 8 weeks, we are in debate on how early we should band, it was really hard on them banding this year at 8 weeks and weaning all the same weekend.  I felt bad for them.  We will probably band sooner next year, like 6 weeks. so they have time to recover and then get weaned.  Plus we could barely get the bander on some of them.  They were miserable.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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Yep, and my doe kid was "allowing" her brother to mount her from 4 weeks until they were separated. That doesn't mean she was in heat, it means she didn't know enough to not allow it.  LOL.  They play mount all the time.   And I've seen young buck kids mount and thrust and by golly you'd think they were doing the deed, but there's no extension of the penis. They're just practicing.


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

2 of my does were in heat this week...so everyone was mounting everyone...does, wethers and kids alike...hormones!


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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 5, 2011)

Yeah, I noticed my wether also likes to practice. Guess he's not so weird after all!


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

MyKidLuvsGreenEgz said:
			
		

> Yeah, I noticed my wether also likes to practice. Guess he's not so weird after all!


He'll be a good heat detector for you


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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 5, 2011)

Not really. His favorite practice friend is the buck!


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

MyKidLuvsGreenEgz said:
			
		

> Not really. His favorite practice friend is the buck!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 6, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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Atleast he likes other goats and not other species.  Just saying.    Just incase you haven't had enough visions of that billy humping on the side of me. oh, don't forget the flappy tongue thing they do.  That is attractive from about 6" away.


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## elevan (Jul 6, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 6, 2011)

And then me trying to stand really close to the doe whom was standing rock solid, begging for some attention, trying to slide him off of my side onto her back.When he figured out what I was doing he got back on the ground, stood back about 3 feet, stomped his front feet at me in protest.    

Clearly that important part working,since by this point, it was at  full extension. 

Not a single one of those does with him got bred, I had to cover them a month later with another buck.


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## elevan (Jul 6, 2011)




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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 7, 2011)

OMG ... the pictures in my head!  And yeah, the tongue hanging out to the side is VERY unattractive! First time I saw it, I thought the buck was, er, mentally challenged. That's the PC word, right?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 7, 2011)

My husband kept saying he is 6 months old, he will breed them.  How was he going to breed them, standing in the opposite corner of a 2 acre pen?  The only time he would come out of the corner was when I went in there and he would start acting like I was the love of his life.  So brilliant me gets the idea, that I would encourage him to come closer by using myself as bait.  that didn't go as planned.  A better plan would have been a collection cup and  him and I off in a corner by ourselves then a turkey baster thingy. Sorry for that image, I couldn't help myself. 

 I was so annoyed with him. Went 5 hours in one direction through the West VA mountains to go get him. Paid plenty of money for him and  then I had to inbreed 5 does anyway, because he was not into goats.  


that was in beginning of september when we tried him the first time, we tried him again in December with some yearling does and he had since figured out what his job is on the farm. A late bloomer. 

My husband with a smerky smile on his face, "Man that goat really likes you."


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## MyKidLuvsGreenEgz (Jul 7, 2011)

STOP! Really, this is NOT helping my migraine!


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## genuck (Jul 13, 2011)

And I thought my billy was off for wanting to breed nothing but my ewe...


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 17, 2011)

We had a bottle baby nubian buck that really liked the does, but he couldn't understand why he couldn't sit in my lap as he grew.  I could not let anyone in his pasture with him because he really liked to greet me by putting his front hooves on my shoulders so he could rub cheeks with me.  He thought all people should be properly greeted and my 5'2" wife was not really happy with his zeal and excitement while he was standing on her chest...


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