# Barberpole - bottlejaw - Safeguard dosage?



## Shiloh Acres (Jul 19, 2010)

Sigh - ok I have my answers. I just hope it's not too late. (Vet was out of town, I guess an emergency)

One of my doelings is doing great. The other goes up and down. She is loaded with barberpole. 

Last night I guess she had bottlejaw?  Jaw was filled with fluid. Today it is normal. I don't think it goes down while sleeping, normally?  Her appetite is good. Her poo is starting to clump up. Temp is normal. Eyelids (I finally got this and want to slap my head and say "Duh!") are very slightly grayish-pink off of white. Definitely anemic. Just not bright-white. She's moving slowly and one step was unsteady but maybe it was ground uneven. Last night she had "tear-stains" on her face. Gone today. 

I've read the various protocol here, and I THINK what I want to do is give her Safeguard for a week or two and then step up to something stronger if needed. I'll give her Red Cell in the meantime. 

I also found recommendations for "Magic" online, though not seen it here?  1 part each of molasses and corn oil and 2 parts Karo syrup, given a couple ounces 4x a day. I'm going to mix that up as soon as I post this and give it to her, then head to the feed store for the rest. 

I need to know dosage for the Safeguard, and how much Red Cell?  And how the Safeguard is to be administered?  I will weigh her before I dose her, but I expect she's around 18 pounds. 

And should I pull her from grain?  I've been giving her a goat sweet feed mixed with calf manna and with loose mineral added. She also gets lots of tree prunings (I think it's pecan but all the goats LOVE it). 

I'm debating on other things, but this is my best guess for how I want to proceed now. I'd be so appreciative of anyone's experience or other advice And thanks cmjust for your other post on the subject -- that's mostly what I used to arrive at this decision.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

Shiloh Acres said:
			
		

> Sigh - ok I have my answers. I just hope it's not too late. (Vet was out of town, I guess an emergency)
> 
> One of my doelings is doing great. The other goes up and down. She is loaded with barberpole.
> 
> Last night I guess she had bottlejaw?  Jaw was filled with fluid. Today it is normal. I don't think it goes down while sleeping, normally?


It can, actually...the reason the head/jaw area fills with fluid in the first place is because they spend all day with their head down, grazing.  Nothing particularly special about the head/jaw area for collecting fluid, except that there's some loose skin there....otherwise, it's purely a 'gravity' thing.

Then they lay down on their brisket with a cud and nod off for the night, and gravity pulls the fluid back out of their head/jaw area..  

Worse in the evening, better in the morning.



> I need to know dosage for the Safeguard, and how much Red Cell?  And how the Safeguard is to be administered?  I will weigh her before I dose her, but I expect she's around 18 pounds.


3x the label dosage is what I shoot for when I use Safe Guard, and I suspect I overshoot it most of the time.  It's very safe stuff...I don't think I've ever heard of anyone O/D'ing a goat on fenbendazole.

The Safe Guard I use is a 10% oral suspension labeled for goats...I just draw it up in a syringe (minus the needle, of course) and shoot it down their throats.  They don't like it, but...well, I'm way past caring what they like and don't like.  They just get it.

As for the Red Cell, it's so far off label that I'm not sure there's really a dosage per se..  I've seen everything from 3ml to 15ml/day for adults.

I'm hitting 30lb+/- kids right now with 6mls.  They're on day 4 of that.  They might die tomorrow, or they might be the grandest goats the world's ever seen.  I may be doing them a huge service, or I may be killing them slowly.

I dunno.  

If this doeling were mine...which, of course, she isn't...which, of course, makes it totally your judegement call...but if she were mine, I'd probably load up like 3mls.

Whether that's right or wrong...helpful or dangerous...I can't say with any certainty.

Sorry..  



> And should I pull her from grain?  I've been giving her a goat sweet feed mixed with calf manna and with loose mineral added. She also gets lots of tree prunings (I think it's pecan but all the goats LOVE it).


That's tough...I wouldn't personally, but I don't have a good reason for that, either.  If she'll eat, I'd let her eat..  

I guess I'm just not sure how it would be beneficial to pull her at this point..



> I'm debating on other things, but this is my best guess for how I want to proceed now. I'd be so appreciative of anyone's experience or other advice And thanks cmjust for your other post on the subject -- that's mostly what I used to arrive at this decision.


Bear in mind that I've never treated a goat that progressed to true bottlejaw..  I suspect I'd proceed the way you're about to proceed, but that's mostly based on how Roll Farms told us that she was instructed to proceed by a veterinarian..


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 19, 2010)

Thanks cm, and my thanks to roll also. 

I'll take the info any way I can get it. No need to be sorry -- I appreciate you offering what you have. Certainly way better than I could have done on my own. And I'm glad you haven't had to deal with bottlejaw. Actually, I can't seem to find many people who have. Seems it gets talked about but hasn't often HAPPENED. Which makes me feel a bit worse since this little doeling is one I've put my breeding hopes on (the rest are only so-so and basically I'm just giving them a home). It always happens to the best one or your favorite, huh?  But then again I'm encouraged because she's ACTING better, which is more than I might expect for being so ill. So ...  I'll do my best of course and we'll see. 

It makes perfect sense for the swelling to be down in the am. I had thought of that, but in all the talk of bottlejaw I found online, no one mentioned it, so I thought maybe I was wrong. 

I'm learning though. I'm learning that offering Magic in a dish is a good way to get the tips of a Nubian's ears coated with molasses. And giving it repeatedly with a too-small syringe is a good way to 
get ME covered in molasses. Luckily I learned that before going to the feed store so I picked up a 20mL for the Magic
 and Red Cell.


And I learned goatlings can scream AND drool out meds AND poke you in the stomach with sharp little horns all at once, but forgive pretty quickly afterwards. I'm glad these two were bottle babies!  I'm not looking forward to dosing the little bucks later if they need it. I held them tighter and pushed the meds slower after that. Later today I will learn if Red Cell stains clothing. Luckily it doesn't matter since I 
am already at least smart enough to wear old clothes when 
dosing goats.

I'll wait and see. Keep up with the worming and Red Cell and Magic. I'm going to add Probios too for a few days. I've got the little girls in their own pen. I guess I'll up the calf manna and cut down the sweet feed but not cut it out. I dunno, they seem to be eating well. They favor browse. The other doeling is pale eyelids too so I'm treating her alongside the bottlejaw one, but she's obnoxious and frisky and ramming her head into things and trying to climb on me, so I think she's feeling a bit better.


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 19, 2010)

Hmmm, connection did something funny and posted before I meant to, but that's most of what I meant to say. 

I did learn one more thing and I hate to admit it but I was amazingly far off with their weights. They actually come in at 30 and 36 pounds. Which DOES make me feel better. Never would have guessed the bag of bones doeling to be 36 pounds! At least I had little enough confidence in my guesstimate to actually weigh them so no harm done. 

I gave the 36# doeling 2.6mL of 10% Safeguard and the 30# doeling 2.2mL. I am debating switching the stronger, smaller doeling to Ivomec or something soon but I was just focusing on the bottlejaw one. I also gave 6mL of Red Cell. I hope that's about right. If it's too much, they leaked a bit out anyway. I am going to see if I can find out about Selenium in this area though, since that's what the Red Cell says. 

Thanks SO MUCH for the info. I'll keep it up, keep watch, and keep praying!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 19, 2010)

I do Safeguard at 1cc per 10 pounds.

As far as that "magic" stuff, all you are really giving them is sugar. I'm not really sure that is needed here unless you have a hypoglycemic problem.

Personally, i would stick with the red cell and the Safeguard. You could always add probios or some type of probiotic too.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I do Safeguard at 1cc per 10 pounds.


Ok...well, that's my new dosage.  

I tend to adopt higher dosages whenever I hear of someone else using it without killing goats.  


(but really...I do...   )


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 19, 2010)

LOL!

Thank you then, Ksalvagno. I will up it a bit for the next dose. Won't they just bet thrilled - they hate it already!  

I wasn't sure about the magic. I know, high sugar. Molasses has iron as well. And I'm not entirely sure about coating the insides with oil. That's the only part of this treatment they don't mind. I've heard a few goat folks swear by it. You'd think it WAS magic. I'll take a look at what the molasses provides compared to the Red Cell. It probably isn't doing anything extra. And they've both got wonderful appetites. They inhaled the morning feed with extra calf manna. So it's probably unnecessary. Thanks!

Oh, and I guess I forgot to mention the Probios, but I got that too. 

So far so good, is all I know right now. The bottlejaw girl still has no jaw swelling today (4pm) and her poo went back to normal. I don't know if that's really good or bad, since we HOPE to be killing off worms, but it's not clumpy now. 

I really, really, REALLY hope she makes it!

Thanks again!


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## cmjust0 (Jul 19, 2010)

> So far so good, is all I know right now. The bottlejaw girl still has no jaw swelling today (4pm) and her poo went back to normal. I don't know if that's really good or bad, since we HOPE to be killing off worms, but it's not clumpy now.


Barberpoles don't generally contribute to diarrhea -- in my experience, anyway -- and they're pretty tiny little "suckers."  In a 30lb goat, it really wouldn't take all that many of them to be dangerous.....I've seen studies which indicate that as few as a couple dozen in full-bore, egg-laying mode can be of clinical significance with regard to anemia.

That being said, I wouldn't necessarily expect that the goat's going to scour and turn loose of hundreds of these things..  What I'd expect is that her intestines are going to mascerate them (extracting what they can in terms of nutrition, which -- to me -- is actually a rather pleasant thought  ) and what's left over will become an indiscreet part of a pellet.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 19, 2010)

That is the dose for alpacas which was actually studied and found to be the proper dosage for alpacas by Dr David Anderson quite a few years ago and when I asked my goat vet about it, he said it was the same as alpacas. So, if I need it for the goats, then that is what they get.

If you have a meningeal worm problem, then it is 1cc per 7 lbs for 7 days.

By the way, try giving a 200 lb alpaca Safeguard! That is 20 cc's. Keep in mind that they spit!


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 19, 2010)

So they digest the dying worms?  A bit gross but I like the idea too. Some small (VERY small!) benefit from a parasite. 

Ummmmm, I'm trying not to think of dosing alpacas and such. I have a llama that's a good-sized girl. She's fairly even tempered but I do NOT expect her to just LET me dose her. At least they don't spit as bad as alpacas. She's never spit at me. Well, not EXACTLY at me. There have been times a greedy goat got too close while I was handfeeding her ... 

And my little girl RAN a ways when she saw a leafy branch fall within her reach!  Off to poke more stuff down goatie throats!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 19, 2010)

Actually, my llama is easy to dose. She is much better about the stuff than the alpacas. Although I have to say the alpacas I have right now don't give me a problem. But in the past.....

I use a dosing syringe. It makes it much easier. Of course for the larger animals, you need the 50cc one.


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 19, 2010)

I suspect I'll have to find out soon. So far she's had the pour-on. But now with the goats I've been wondering if she's not going to be exposed to more parasites. I let her go almost everywhere, they are often in the same pasture, and one goat or another ends up going all over whether I intentionally let them or not. Especially the s
smallest one. She's usually at my heels unseen and is a whiz at sliding through gates as iclose them behind me. Shoulda named her Shadow. 

The good news is that the little bucks are in pretty good shape. One's a bit thinner than ideal but both have nice red eyelids. Which is good since I'd REALLY have a time dosing them. Their moms are looking too light though and definitely need treatment of some sort. Both does (lactating too) are on the thin side and of course I want to breed them in the fall so I need to get then in better shape along with the little girls.


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