# VERY lethargic and thin corsican sheep, fell down tonight.



## Quarterhorse (Sep 29, 2016)

I have a 4 month old Corsican haired sheep. We bought her with another 4 month old and a 7 month old from the same farm (all ewes, unbred). This one is extremely lethargic, has had scours and tonight she fell down trying to turn away from me when I went to deworm her. They have all recieved one dose of Panacur (next 2 weeks from the first dose is due this upcoming sat), one dose of ivermectin and we started 6cc of 9.6% liquid corid along with 6cc of molasses for energy on this sickly one 2 days ago. We have given her a few anem-x 100 shots (1 ml) because her eyelids were extremely pale and a few vita-jec b shots (1 ml) for energy so she will hopefully eat and drink more (we haven't given her vit B since the corid because corid mimicks thiamine and thats what coccidia feed on per internet research). We have tried electrolytes in the water, but they prefer fresh water. I drenched her tonight with some water mixed with a bit of apple juice (better taste=more drinking hopefully?), that was 36cc. Is there anything further you folks recommend? We are trying to collect a fecal, but she is stubborn. We have seen tapeworm segments in the other ewes' stool, but it sounds like tapes are normal for sheep (is that correct?). 

Thank you so much for your help! We want to save this little girl, but everything we try comes to a dead end  <3


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 29, 2016)

I am sorry, I don't have sheep so I can't help with sheep specific advice, but it sounds like you are trying to cover alot of the basics, worms, coccidia, etc. Any chance of getting a vet involved to increase the odds of finding the source of the issues and best course of treatment for them?


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 29, 2016)

You really need to to a fecal.

Are her eyelids pale? I am unfamiliar with Panacur, but I know ivermectin can cause internal bleeding if they have a high worm load and the worms are released too fast.

Have you checked her temp?

She probably needs thiamine with CoRid. You don't want her getting goat polio, which may be what she has as symptoms are acting "drunk" and fever if I remeber right... Fortified vitamin b complex containing thiamine can be found at Tractor Supply.

Tapes are treated typically with Valbazen in goats (I don't have sheep), but I would think the same in sheep. Valbazen isn't safe when pregnant. If she is bred, Safe Guard is best.

Probiotics are always good.

Hope she gets better! She is very cute!

@Southern by choice
@Goat Whisperer
@babsbag


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## NH homesteader (Sep 29, 2016)

I would call a vet.  I don't have sheep (yet)  but I have goats. Waiting for the sheep people to weigh in... 

In the meantime if there is any way you could call a vet,  she sounds very sick. I would be hesitant to give her any more medicine until then,  she's been given a lot already. 

She is gorgeous though,  I really hope you are able to figure out how to help her!


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 29, 2016)

Try and get that fecal to someone ASAP!
I don't do sheep, but goats can have tapes- you just don't want it getting to a high load. Generally if I srart seeing segments in the poo (w/out the scope) I treat.

If she were my sheep, I would keep giving the supplements you are already giving her. She is extremely thin and if she is having a hard time running that means she is already extremely weak. You are basically keeping  her  alive with the support (supplements) until whatever she is dealing with is eradicated or she passes away.

Depending on what electrolytes you are using, you may not want to leave it out.
This can grow some very nasty/bad bacteria. It is best to drench them.

Like I said, I don't do sheep. Goats and sheep are s bit different. Sorry I can't offer more help. Really hoping your girl makes it! 

@mysunwolf @norseofcourse @secuono @SheepGirl @Sheepshape @purplequeenvt
@Southdown


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## NH homesteader (Sep 29, 2016)

Yes I'm sorry if it sounded like I was saying don't keep giving the supplements.  Definitely do! I meant adding  on additional treatments.


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## DutchBunny03 (Sep 29, 2016)

The tapeworms could be the cause of the thinness, if there are a lot of them. They feed off of the sheep's food it eats, so, if tapeworms are the problem, no matter how much she eats, she will not get any better. I suggest you consult a veterinarian.


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## Quarterhorse (Sep 29, 2016)

Thank you all so much! I am amazed at the response of everyone, you are all amazingly caring people <3
I am determined to get a stool sample tomorrow (even if I have to tape a bag to her butt!) and get it to the vet ASAP. She is sleeping now, so I will let her rest until tomorrow. I was worried about overmedicating her, so I think we will stop for now til we get her fecal read.
I will drench the electrolytes from now on, I wasn't sure about the bacteria, but I was a little grossed out thinking about tea or something for myself sitting out all day or longer and still drinking it. We were dumping it out and refreshing it every other day, but that is still plenty of time for bacteria to grow!
That is very good to know about ivermectin and the internal bleeding, I didn't know that and we have goats as well!
Again, thank you so much for all your responses!


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## NH homesteader (Sep 29, 2016)

Please update us when you know more! Wishing for the best!


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 29, 2016)

I know this sounds really gross, but you can get a glove on and stick a finger in her behind to manually get pellets. 

I followed a goat around for an hour and a half before I finally gave up and did that!
And then, of course, she pooped right after.


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## DutchBunny03 (Sep 29, 2016)

Hope she gets better!!


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## babsbag (Sep 29, 2016)

Quarterhorse said:


> (we haven't given her vit B since the corid because corid mimicks thiamine and thats what coccidia feed on per internet research).



Very interesting statement and I have wondered about that as well. Sheep produce their own Thiamine on an as needed basis so if Corid mimics the thiamine then the thought is that the sheep won't make the thiamine that it needs since the body thinks it already has the thiamine. Cattle do the same, as do goats. You can ask 10 people about using Corid and get 10 different answers. But if you want to not worry about Corid and the possibility that it can cause a Thiamine deficiency you can use DiMethox 40% injectable and give it orally.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Sep 29, 2016)

Because most people do not have gloves on hand, the easiest way I have found to take a fecal sample is the flip the ziploc bag inside out and use it as the glove. Pull out two pellets, or a pellet size of diarrhea, then flip the bag the right way, seal and deliver to vet clinic (until you learn to do it yourself lol).


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## TAH (Sep 29, 2016)

I agree with what the others have said. Hope she gets well soon


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## Quarterhorse (Sep 29, 2016)

Thank you for the glove/ziplock tip! I will do that tomorrow if the hubby can't get one 'au naturale' while I'm at work. 
The corid and thiamine/vit b... I feel like every time I try to research how to treat anything with our sheep/goats, there is always a bazillion methods and every one says any other method is detrimental to your sheep/goats. That is why I love sites like this. Everyone adds to other peoples treatment ideas. It's not "pick A, B or C" but more of a group effort of what has and what hasn't worked for a variety of people. I cannot thank you all enough. I will post updates as she gets better (because I have hope she will!).
Thank you all again <3


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## babsbag (Sep 29, 2016)

And BTW...welcome to BYH. Sorry that you joined us with a problem, but hopefully this will get fixed and you will stick around and share pictures and stories with us. Please keep us updated and your sheep, she is very cute.


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## Sheepshape (Sep 30, 2016)

Only just seen this post (different time zone....same issues!).

A severe worm load would sound to be the most likely, and tapeworms use all the food whilst roundworms suck the blood. Panacur should kill the tapes. Tapes never kill on their own, but you'll never fatten a ewe with tapes.

Hopefully you'll have your faecal sample now.....even if that meant gloves and fingers!

Just a thought...Over here, where rain is VERY plentiful....liver fluke can wipe out animals pretty fast (though the sheep is often a fat and fast growing lamb). I have had to treat for fluke more often this year which has been wet and mild and encourages the snails which are the secondary host. If fluke is an issue where you are, treat her.....the medication names may be slightly different 'across the pond', but ivermectin, Panacur etc don't treat fluke.

I DO hope she pulls through, she looks a lovely girl.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

Sheepshape said:


> Only just seen this post (different time zone....same issues!).
> 
> A severe worm load would sound to be the most likely, and tapeworms use all the food whilst roundworms suck the blood. Panacur should kill the tapes. Tapes never kill on their own, but you'll never fatten a ewe with tapes.
> 
> ...



Ivermectin plus treats flukes. Valbazen claims it does...


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

I agree that a fecal is the number one thing to do so that you know what you are dealing with at this point.  On top of that I would take her to the vet and ask for a test for Johne's.  It has been known to show up in sheep as well as cattle and if it is the problem, she needs to be disposed of as there is no cure and it is highly contagious.  We had a ram that had it and he was laying down and still eating.  Had tried everything else, and finally one of the vets at the practice did the blood sample and came up with Johne's.  It is seen in cattle and some animals can shed it without showing clinical signs, but it is something you really need to rule out before you possibly infect anything else.  Worm loads will drag down the animal and even cause death, but if they have Johne's, then they are susceptible to everything else as their immune system is compromised.  Don't know if there is a fecal test for the johnes, but I would look into it as well.


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

Also, you can find gloves used for AI breeding at some farm supplies, they are long and go up to the shoulder and are great for getting  fecal samples and such without getting your hands/arms contaminated.  Or ask the vet for some.  A box has like 100 or more, but are great to just get the sample, pull the glove off from the top turning it all inside out and not having to get anything on you.  One farmer uses them to also get a silage sample since he can grab a handful and pull the glove off inside out and it is "pre-packaged" in the plastic glove.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> I agree that a fecal is the number one thing to do so that you know what you are dealing with at this point.  On top of that I would take her to the vet and ask for a test for Johne's.  It has been known to show up in sheep as well as cattle and if it is the problem, she needs to be disposed of as there is no cure and it is highly contagious.  We had a ram that had it and he was laying down and still eating.  Had tried everything else, and finally one of the vets at the practice did the blood sample and came up with Johne's.  It is seen in cattle and some animals can shed it without showing clinical signs, but it is something you really need to rule out before you possibly infect anything else.  Worm loads will drag down the animal and even cause death, but if they have Johne's, then they are susceptible to everything else as their immune system is compromised.  Don't know if there is a fecal test for the johnes, but I would look into it as well.


But she is so young. Doesn't Johnes show up when they are older?


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 30, 2016)

Put the fecal sample in the refrigerator and keep cool until you take it to the vet.


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## luvmypets (Sep 30, 2016)

Good Luck, she a such a cutie. 
Just a question, was she in this condition when you got her?


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

Normally, johne's shows up when an animal undergoes a stress to their situation....calving, moving,  ....NORMALLY.... but never rule it out until you get a definite negative....had a heifer test positive for it on a rented pasture when she was being bred.... and had a friend bring some new stock in that infected his young stock and has paid for it in spades.  Calves get it from sucking their own mothers and it is supposed to incubate for several years before actually showing clinical signs....If these are bought animals, I would get them checked.  Are you sure she is young????


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## Sheepshape (Sep 30, 2016)

Over here we don't have Ivermectin Plus for sheep, but we have plain ivermectin (for roundworms,lugworms and nasal bots) and in combination with a flukicide e.g Fasimec which is triclabendazole plus ivermectin (where the triclabendazole is the active ingredient against flukes).

Whatever you use, make sure that you have adequate fluke treatment if you are in a 'flukey area'

Good luck.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

The sheep is 4 months old so no Johne's test would be accurate.  I have thrown the medicine cabinet at a goat once or twice, better than a dead goat. Yes, the treatment "might" kill them, but not treating certainly will.


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 30, 2016)

How is she doing, @Quarterhorse ?

And where are all the other sheep people?!


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## Quarterhorse (Sep 30, 2016)

She took a turn for the worse, was laying flat when the hubby checked on her this morning while I was at work. We thought we were going to have to euthanize her. He didn't give up though and gave her 400 mls of fluids and a nutrition/calorie supplement. She got more perky and was up and walking/grazing for a few hours. We got a fecal sample tonight after she ate some (she had no stool in her earlier in the day). We are bringing the fecal to the vet tomorrow morning when they open. We are bringing her fresh grass/alfalfa/clover (she is not interested in hay). Her ears were cool to the touch, so we have a blanket on her and a board beside her to keep her sternal (she keeps laying on her side). Thank you for the Johne's thought, we will get her tested for that as well (hopefully they can do that tomorrow as well). 
Thank you all so much for your compassionate replies <3


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

She is too young for a Johne's test. And yes, I got this post confused with someone in BC...sorry. I hope she makes it through the night and you can get this figured out.


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## Quarterhorse (Sep 30, 2016)

I just finished reading all those comments. Fecal only tomorrow, hopefully it gives results. Thank you for the kind words. She has been a tough cookie so far, hopefully she pulls through!



luvmypets said:


> Good Luck, she a such a cutie.
> Just a question, was she in this condition when you got her?


She was not like this when we got her. She arrived almost 3 weeks ago, all three looked great. A week into them being here, she started having droopy ears and neck and was loosing weight. That's when we did the first dose of Panacur, she kept getting worse while the others are perfectly fine. We gave them all ivermectin a few days later, she kept declining. We started the iron and vit b injections and offered electrolytes, kept declining, so I found this site and you wonderful people to get more suggestions. We are new to sheep, and looking back I should have brought a fecal in when we first noticed her symptoms (I am kicking myself for not doing that). Our goats have always done perfect with normal dewormings, but she is a very different case.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

Make sure you ask your vet about liver flukes. It probably isn't a test they normally run but they can if you ask. Good luck; we are all rooting for her.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 30, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Make sure you ask your vet about liver flukes. It probably isn't a test they normally run but they can if you ask. Good luck; we are all rooting for her.


How do you run a test for liver flukes? I know they rarely show up in fecals... Another goat breeder/dairy owner I know said she uses ivermectin plus maybe once a year as preventative because of that.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2016)

It is in the fecal, but it looks like Barberpole so it is sometimes missed. It isn't a problem where I live as we have hot dry summers and I have no pasture. I am not sure if it will always be seen or not.

This is from Goat-Link.com   _While Liver fluke damage is often found in otherwise well-managed mature goats that despite good care continue to decline in appearance, in my experience this sudden appearance of anemia and weakness with either normal, or subnormal, temp (and sometimes swelling under the jaw as well) is not at all unusual to discover in young ruminants within the first few months of life as well. At that age it commonly shows up when they're heavily exposed to it in pastures containing wet areas, before their immune systems can get up and going to protect them. In fact, it's not uncommon for these young victims to die so fast they hardly have time to be sick.¹ This is especially true if there are any clostridial (Entero) organisms present in them, since they multiply and secrete their toxins fast in the already damaged, poorly oxygenated liver tissue .¹ 

Today, by far the most difficult problem that we as owners face with Liver fluke treatment/control is that the veterinary community in general isn't even aware that it's there. As a result, they're unable to recommend proper treatment for it. This is because the egg of the Liver fluke (Fasciola hepatica)² looks so similar to that of the Barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus)² that when it shows up on the slide in the Vet's office it's routinely misidentified to BE that of the Haemonchus contortus (or perhaps by some general term like strongyles, stomach worms, et al)._


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## farmerjan (Sep 30, 2016)

Sounds like you have done everything possible for her and that whatever it is, she had it when you got her.   Why some animals get things and others in the same group do not is always something to second guess later.  Barberpole worms are the big problem here, but after that bout with johne's we have become gun shy and anything that does not respond to 2 courses of treatment goes to a buyer that ships for slaughter if we don't dispose of it first.  I would definitely treat for liver flukes, why not since you have tried everything else.  Sometimes the cure will kill them, but sometimes it is better to try everything in the medicine cabinet  than just watch them die or put them down.  The wanting to eat and graze is what made me think johne's,  they never quit wanting to eat.  Good luck with the fecal and the vet.


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## Sheepshape (Oct 1, 2016)

Yes, just to re-iterate...if you used plain ivermectin, it won't cover for liver fluke. Ask the vet for some triclabendazole (that's the generic name...has several trade names).

Acute liver fluke usually occurs in previously healthy sheep who are exposed to wet pasture (with snails) between August and October.

Good Luck.


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## Quarterhorse (Oct 1, 2016)

Vet said with all the dewormings we havd given her, a fecal would not be reliable. She had formed pellet stool late last night finally (YAY!!!). We got more fluids at the vet and she is getting them as I type. We got a nutrical type paste used for newborns, but the vet said it can't hurt her. Drenching her with more electorlytes periodically. If she makes it she better not expect scissor cut grass delivered a few time a day and a blanket to rest under


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## babsbag (Oct 1, 2016)

She certainly will be spoiled.

I don't understand your vet. There is no way to know if the wormer worked without a fecal. At least you have been treating for cocci so that should be taken care of. I would be worried about the pale eyelids; are they getting better? Any concern about liver fluke from your vet?


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## Quarterhorse (Oct 1, 2016)

Her stool is solid now, so we are going to nurse her to build strength up and try another fecal in a few days or so (they didn't actually say how long we should wait). I think the thought is that since we had recently gave her the 2nd dose of panacur and she had ivermectin (not ivermectin plus though, that will be next if she gets worse again) a few days ago, she is probably going to show all parasites she may have had (even if they weren't a high enough load to be making her this sick I would think) that we have treated her for until they all get cleared out. It was actually a vet tech, vet was with a client, but the tech has some experience with sheep. Thankfully the hubby is a vet tech and is able to give her fluids via a line and whatnot. We are just pretty new to sheep and are learning as we go. 
She is more alert now, that's for sure.


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## TAH (Oct 1, 2016)

She is a cutie


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## babsbag (Oct 1, 2016)

Since she is doing better that does make some sense; I know that sometimes you have to worm 10 days apart to get them all.  You might try some Red Cell if she is still anemic, you should be able to get it at a feed store.  It is helpful that hubby can give fluids and such not; I have done it on kittens but never on a goat.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 2, 2016)

Glad she is doing better! 
We always try to keep a couple bags of fluids and an IV line. You never know when you might need it.

We were dealing with a sick kid a few months ago, he ended up getting very dehydrated. Those extra fluids really helped in turning him around.


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## Quarterhorse (Oct 2, 2016)

She was mostly unresponsive this morning, no energy whatsoever. We decided to euthanize her and end her suffering. We looked at her liver and lungs and they looked normal. We will be cleaning out the sheep shed and watching the other 2 for any signs. 
Thank you all SO MUCH for your help, we did all we could to save her. 
We named her Xena, Warrior Princess last night because she was a little fighter <3


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 2, 2016)

Sorry to hear this 
This is one of the hard things with raising livestock. Sometimes you can give everything you've got, but it doesn't always work the way you would like


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 2, 2016)

I'm so sorry.


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## Sheepshape (Oct 2, 2016)

I'm very sorry.

Try as we may we cannot save them all. At least we will try.

Regards and commiserations.


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## babsbag (Oct 2, 2016)

Very sorry,  you gave her the best, that is all we can do.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 2, 2016)

So sorry


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## alsea1 (Oct 2, 2016)

Bummer. sometimes no matter what you do they just can't seem to make it.
I am glad you decided to end her suffering. Its always a good thing to know when its time


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