# Guarding Fallow Deer?



## LoneOakGoats (Jan 12, 2017)

In the last 3 months, our fallow deer have been attacked twice by a neighbors dogs.  First attack, police shot the dog, but it killed one deer.  Neighbor brings in more strays.  Second attack happened Tuesday.  Two of her dogs got in our pasture & attacked 3 of our deer, killing one. We have fencing that keeps the deer in, but the dogs climbed over in one attack and dug under in the other. Wondering of anyone has had guardians for deer?  We have an Anatolian that guards goats at a different location, but we need something for our deer. I'd appreciate any information and or advice you may have.   Thank you!


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## Bruce (Jan 12, 2017)

I really feel for you and am sorry for your loss!! I am of the opinion that I shouldn't have to protect my property from other people's animals. Wild ones, sure. But clearly your neighbor doesn't give a damn.

The fastest immediate solution (shy of sitting outside with a gun) would be to run hotwire both above your fence and low on the outside so the neighbor's dogs are loathe to try to go over or under.


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## Alexz7272 (Jan 12, 2017)

I know here in Colorado it is a 'fence out' state, making it my responsibility to keep predators away from my livestock. I think Texas may be the same? I dont know if you can use an LGD, bit maybe that'll help? I'm sorry for your loss!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 12, 2017)

I know of someone who is working with LGDs to see if they will protect their deer and other exotics. I will ask and see how that is going.


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## LoneOakGoats (Jan 12, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> I know of someone who is working with LGDs to see if they will protect their deer and other exotics. I will ask and see how that is going.


Yes, please do. Thanks


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## babsbag (Jan 12, 2017)

I see no reason that an LGD couldn't protect deer. They protect penguins, poultry, goat, sheep, cattle, alpacas, humans, cats, and anything else that they are trained to guard. It is all about the LGD knowing that the animals are yours to protect. 

@Alexz7272 about being a 'fence out' state... it may be your job to have the fence but they are responsible it that fence is breached. Now of course I am guessing that 'livestock' and neighbor 'dog' would fall under the same law and while that is logical it may not be the case.  I just saw this same discussion elsewhere.

This is from the CO Dept. of Ag. 

_Any person maintaining in good repair a lawful fence may recover damages for trespass from the owner of any livestock that break through such fence. Refer to CRS 35-46-102. Livestock invading fenced property is not a criminal offense, but civil recourse is available to the property owner._


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## Bruce (Jan 12, 2017)

Doesn't that law say ONLY that if livestock breach someone ELSE'S fence the livestock owner is responsible for any damage? Dogs are not livestock (at least not in the USA). And that law is a bit loose to my mind. A lawful fence could be 3' high plastic picket fence that in prime condition couldn't keep out livestock.

I HOPE there is another law that says if your non livestock go through a properly maintained fence on someone else's property, you are responsible for any damage.

I am sure a good LGD could and would guard the deer but unless @LoneOakGoats is willing to pull the Anatolian from the goats, leaving them in peril, I don't see how there would be any fallow deer left to guard by the time a trustworthy, trained LGD could be obtained.


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## Alexz7272 (Jan 13, 2017)

@babsbag Unfortunately here in Colorado it is my job to keep predator out of my fence line, not others job to respect it  
In communist Boulder  they really take that seriously. Unfortunately some mindless city folk bought the house next to us & let their two dogs run wild. Our fence is not 100% on that side yet and we are still welding together our gate & building the mechanism. My friend is a cop & she confirmed that it is my responsibility to keep the dogs off my property _*BUT*_ if they do cross my property line, I can legally 'dispatch' of them if I feel they are a threat. I am obviously a dog lover but I have already warned them several times that if they cross & go after my dogs or seem threatening to my livestock, I will shoot the dog(s). That is also legal, its so weird & I live in a VERY odd place in Colorado. Odd doesn't even begin to cover it! 

@Bruce The law does say that if my livestock crosses into another property, I am responsible for any damages. From my experiences as well, companion animals (dogs) do not qualify under that same law. 

@LoneOakGoats Have you found any additional information, possibly look into an LGD?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2017)

Simple answer- Yes. 
I do think your first defense and fastest solution right now is to put hotwire to the outside of the fence.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 13, 2017)

I woke up to a dead dog this morning in my kennel house - 1 1/2 year old female SM in perfect health and shape - stone cold dead
in her sleeping bed - no signs of diddly - no blood no struggle no bloat no froth no poop - appears to be natural causes -
so my response is going to be to sound terse and the point. 

But.  Since the SM thread put up by TAH got  hijacked into chicken training 101 what the heck may as well
steer this one off course a tad too.  In my mental / shock state I'm in I should not even be posting in here but I have silently watched the
direction this thread is taking and I feel compelled to say something.

So. Fallow deer…..had to look them up to see what they look like.  Peaceful pretty creatures and sitting ducks for predators alright.
But back to the question.

What's missing here in this thread?

OP has not offered their level of comfort zone and experience rearing up LGDs.  That is my first 'gotta know'.
Rank amateur?  Struggling?  Old hand?  Wrote the book?  Barely hanging on?  Train wreck?

This is not a question of whether a dog can do this or not - it's a question of the *owner's ability to train a dog to do it.*
How does the OP plan on bonding a pup/pups to the deer?  Details?  Details?  Graphic details???????
Assuming they have the money and huge time it will take to train a pup on deer?
Have you located an EXPERIENCED, ETHICAL, HONEST BREEDER who will give you the support you will need?

In other words, Does OP have a plan?  Just because someone else can do it does not mean you can.

Although LGDs can be trained to guard just about anything, that does not mean they automatically *should.  *

A few years someone contacted me about the same situation, they wanted to buy a puppy to guard deer.
I turned them down.  No LGD experience.  How in the world…..?  I won't go there. 

What was needed there and as in this situation, as SBC and others have intimated, was BETTER FENCING and more hands-on participation, i.e. shepherding,
by the owner.  And using other means to deter predators.

OP has not told us or shown us what their fencing is constructed of.
That dogs are digging under and going over it, tells me it is probably less than adequate.

This is where I'd be bringing in your deer at night into an enclosed barn.
And as Bruce pointed out, if you pull the Anatolian out of goats - you are up the creek there.
Not enough dogs, not good enough fence. 

But personally I am not promoting you getting a dog to guard the deer.
One dog is not going to cut it.  You'll need two. 

LGDs are huge commitment of time, money, effort, and more.  Does OP have all that?

Electric fence doesn't eat or require vet bills - how about some heavy railroad ties placed at fence base where dogs are digging in -
those would be way cheaper and more effective probably than an LGD.

A puppy ain't going to do squat for you for a year or so.
An older dog who was NOT RAISED FROM PUPPYHOOD on fallow dear, could prove to be a wreck.  Would I take my dogs from cattle/sheep/goats/poultry
to guarding deer without a lot of training?  Heck NO.  And not even then would I guarantee it would work.

Too many people jumping in getting dogs where they don't really need them but what they need is to be more involved, better fencing, use other means,
bring/pen stock up at night, etc. etc. etc. 

Does OP own a gun?  Lock and load and don't miss if the dogs are on your place.  If you know their owner, go talk to him, give him fair warning,
next time - there will be no next time.  And depending on your local codes if neighbor is breaking law, start paper trail by calling local LE and filing
reports.

Please do not only resort to a dog to solve this issue.  Much more homework needed.


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## babsbag (Jan 13, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri  I am sorry about the loss of your dog. Losing them "out of the blue" is gut wrenching.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri  I agree with all you said.

Words cannot truly express my deep sadness for your loss.  
Hoping a necropsy will yield some answers for you.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 13, 2017)

So sorry for your loss.  Can't even imagine the shock of finding her already gone.


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## greybeard (Jan 13, 2017)

Texas law is pretty clear on dogs chasing livestock, and in Texas, thanks to folks like Mike Hughes of Broken Arrow Ranch, the State of Texas officially recognizes exotics as livestock.
Historically, Texas was and officially still is an open range state, meaning it is the public's responsibility to fence livestock OUT. However, the State has allowed each county the option to enact a stock law, and most have, making it the livestock owner's responsibility to keep their stock fenced IN. 
Unless LoneOkaGoats lives in one of about 15 counties that is still Open Range, he/she has absolutely no legal responsibility to fence dogs OUT. It is the responsibility of the dog owner to keep their dog out of LoneOakGoats' property at all times.
Not only can LoneOakGoats shoot the offending animal, so can anyone else that sees it happen, has seen it happen, or has reason to believe it is about to happen. (the dog has to actually be  causing a problem--it's mere presence is not always just cause*)

_Sec. 822.013.  DOGS OR COYOTES THAT ATTACK ANIMALS.  (a)  A dog or coyote that is attacking, is about to attack, or has recently attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may be killed by:

(1)  any person witnessing the attack;  or

(2)  the attacked animal's owner or a person acting on behalf of the owner if the owner or person has knowledge of the attack.

(b)  A person who kills a dog or coyote as provided by this section is not liable for damages to the owner, keeper, or person in control of the dog or coyote.

(c)  A person who discovers on the person's property a dog or coyote known or suspected of having killed livestock, domestic animals, or fowls may detain or impound the dog or coyote and return it to its owner or deliver the dog or coyote to the local animal control authority.  The owner of the dog or coyote is liable for all costs incurred in the capture and care of the dog or coyote and all damage done by the dog or coyote.

(d)  The owner, keeper, or person in control of a dog or coyote that is known to have attacked livestock, domestic animals, or fowls shall control the dog or coyote in a manner approved by the local animal control authority.

(e)  A person is not required to acquire a hunting license under Section 42.002, Parks and Wildlife Code, to kill a dog or coyote under this section.

Added by Acts 1989, 71st Leg., ch. 678, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1989.  Renumbered from Health & Safety Code Sec. 822.033 and amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1002, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 2003._

* Even in cases where the dog hasn't actually been seen harassing or running the livestock, if it's mere presence causes excitability or tension in the flock or herd, courts have held this meets the standards set forth in Sec. 822.013.
I have never heard of a case where the dog owner won in any lawsuit of this nature.


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## LoneOakGoats (Jan 13, 2017)

First off, I would NEVER get a dog to guard deer without doing tons of research. I have owned LGD for several years.  No I did not train them, I did my homework then & spent the time to get a good match.  They guard my goats.  I spoke to the dog owner about electric fencing at least 2 months ago. The electric wire needs to be on their side of the fence, so I can't just install it without their permission. The reason I asked the question is simple.  I'm just trying to cover all my options and decide what would be the best way to proceed from here.  Homework is exactly what I'm doing.  I would never simply jump & get a puppy or adult LGD to guard my deer. I research before I act.  I had never heard of deer being guarded by LGD and was wondering if anyone had. I knew if anyone had heard of it, this would be the place to ask.
I do own a gun and I know how to use it.  I have talked to the owners at least 5-6 different times about their dogs. My deer are in the barn at night.  Both attacks happened just after lunch.  We have pipe fencing 5 1/2 feet tall, with pipe railing on top. That still didn't stop the dog from climbing over once and digging under once.  I'm well aware of the time, money, effort, and love involved with LGD.  (You left out love) I have filed and have copies in hand of the police reports.  Again, just covering my bases here.  I would never take my Anatolian away from the (his) goats. OK, I think I coved it all this time. 
Thank you for your input and help to all that replied.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2017)

LoneOakGoats said:


> First off, I would NEVER get a dog to guard deer without doing tons of research. I have owned LGD for several years.  No I did not train them, I did my homework then & spent the time to get a good match.  They guard my goats.  I spoke to the dog owner about electric fencing at least 2 months ago. The electric wire needs to be on their side of the fence, so I can't just install it without their permission. The reason I asked the question is simple.  I'm just trying to cover all my options and decide what would be the best way to proceed from here.  Homework is exactly what I'm doing.  I would never simply jump & get a puppy or adult LGD to guard my deer. I research before I act.  I had never heard of deer being guarded by LGD and was wondering if anyone had. I knew if anyone had heard of it, this would be the place to ask.
> I do own a gun and I know how to use it.  I have talked to the owners at least 5-6 different times about their dogs. My deer are in the barn at night.  Both attacks happened just after lunch.  We have pipe fencing 5 1/2 feet tall, with pipe railing on top. That still didn't stop the dog from climbing over once and digging under once.  I'm well aware of the time, money, effort, and love involved with LGD.  (You left out love) I have filed and have copies in hand of the police reports.  Again, just covering my bases here.  I would never take my Anatolian away from the (his) goats. OK, I think I coved it all this time.
> Thank you for your input and help to all that replied.




Those of us that know you and remember you know that is what you were asking, that is why I left it at that.  
That sure is a pickle of a situation! 
How big is the enclosure?
What kind of dogs are these?


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## NH homesteader (Jan 13, 2017)

So... From a relative newbie on the site... Is this an appropriate time to say whoa... You have deer? Lol 

What do you keep them for, meat? 

This is an interesting conversation, although a stressful situation for you.


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## LoneOakGoats (Jan 13, 2017)

SBC, the enclosure for the deer is 3 acres. The dogs are pit mix.  She removed them & so far they are still gone.  I'm praying it stays that way.

NH homesteader, lol, yes I have deer.  They are fallow and are just the sweetest ever!  I bottle raised our Callie, she wore diapers in our house when she was a baby, slept in a play pen at night in our den.    She is 10 1/2 years old now.   She was attacked both times, and thankfully, is going to recover this time.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2017)

Glad they haven't come back around but smart of you to keep being proactive. 
That is so sweet. I am glad she will recover.
What is wrong with people? Geesh. You would think they would have no problem with wire on their side... do they realize they may end up with dead dogs.
I am a dog lover and would never be quick to shoot... but IF attacking my livestock- different story!


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## NH homesteader (Jan 13, 2017)

Aww that is sweet! I hope you're able to keep them safe!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 13, 2017)

I used to have a serious problem
I would read things on the internet that I disagreed with 
I felt that I had to debate with people' to see my point of view 
I learned that this was a lost cause
So now when I see something on the Internet that I disagree with I just keep on scrolling 
You should all be more like me and keep scrolling


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> You should all be more like me and keep scrolling


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## Baymule (Jan 13, 2017)

@LoneOakGoats we are neighbors! We live between Van and Lindale. We go to 4B Feed store in Alba to buy Martindale All Purpose pellets for our horses and try to be there at lunch so we can go to Connie's Café for lunch. So we aren't that far away from each other.

That sure is a shame about your deer. I would be hopping mad  for sure. Keep your rifle handy and sighted in.

There is a 1,000 acre ranch behind us that has Axis deer. They high wire fenced it and off set the fence by 3 or 4 feet, then hog ringed a wire skirt laid flat on the ground all the way around it. With a pipe fence, you sure aren't going to move it over! What about asking your neighbor about permission to lay a wire skirt on the ground to keep their dogs out of your property? Get it in writing.


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## Bruce (Jan 14, 2017)

You could minimally run hotwire over the top. Yes a dog could still dig under but MAYBE if it tried the top first it would fear the fence regardless???

If you ran a very low wire on your side MAYBE (I have no idea) it would hit that with it's nose as it tunnels under and back out?

Best of luck. Certainly the best situation would be if your neighbor developed a permanent and obvious sense of responsibility. Like maybe asking you if they could run hot wire or an anti dig screen on THEIR side of your fence. 

Nothing cheaper in fence building than having one already there that needs only a little modification to keep your animals on your side.


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