# Poor kids got dehorned, problems now



## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

Hi everyone!
After I got my female bottle babies I read everywhere that you disbud with 4-10 days of age (I'm new to goats).
I called all 3 vets here, where the most common goats are commercial meat goats and 4-H meat goats that will be auctioned off. All vets (all recorded by the local 4-H) told me to wait until they are 3-4 weeks old. So I thought, if they all deal with 4-H goats, which are not allowed to have horns, they know...
I picked the vet that offered the procedure the cheapest. He told me that with his surgical method it would be very unlikely that the kids would develop scurs. I wasn't allowed in back and got my kids back looking just about butchered and miserable! The bandage was so tight around their throats that they sounded like chicken and they had lots of trouble to suck the bottle and breathed all raspy. Asked three times, was told bandage would be ok. Started to gradually cutting it to allow for more room. When I finally took the whole bandage off, it was so badly stuck on, that even with soaking it, it took me an hour to get it off and I still made it bleed, which I got to stop with lots of blood stop. The kids hat huge holes/wounds, but luckily no open sinus cavity.  They are 4 1/2 month old now and it appears that the one doeling has a swelling in the throat area since then and guess what! Both kids are getting scurs on both horn bud areas!
My new vet said to wait and see if the scurs would grow significantly or stay as little nubs and points. If growing more, he would take care of it. He also thinks that the swelling at the throat would be inflamed lymph nodes, but since no other symptoms not to worry about it yet...
Now I was thinking it would be better to get the scurs the sooner the better; waiting longer will get the kids just about butchered again...
What are your thoughts about the whole thing?
(I will try to post a video and photos)
Thanks y'all!


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

The other one...


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

Blurry pic of scur, the other one is only to be felt under the hair as of now...


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

Pic of the swelling, plz enlarge


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

Btw, sorry to upload everything separate, can't figure out how to post multiple pics from my phone.
The video won't upload, no allowed extension- whatever this means...


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## Latestarter (Sep 10, 2015)

wow... that looks horrendous and I'm sure was extremely painful   There should have been no reason to bandage after the disbudding. There should have been 2 nice, neatly burned, copper colored circles around where the horn buds had been. There should have been no bleeding, the heat would have cauterized everything. There are lots of pics here on this site showing what it SHOULD have looked like (as well as some showing what it should NOT look like).

From my research, after disbudding, if scurs start and you catch them early, they can be re-burned. If you allow them to grow out or with an older goat, they either have to stay and be maintained (trimmed) or surgically removed.

For info: http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/

Sorry I can't help with the swelling issue.


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 10, 2015)

The disbudding job looks pretty awful.

Can you move the scur?  I mean, if you grab it with your fingers will it wiggle a little?  It doesn't look to bad to me.

That lump does not look good.  Is it an abscess?


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> wow... that looks horrendous and I'm sure was extremely painful   There should have been no reason to bandage after the disbudding. There should have been 2 nice, neatly burned, copper colored circles around where the horn buds had been. There should have been no bleeding, the heat would have cauterized everything. There are lots of pics here on this site showing what it SHOULD have looked like (as well as some showing what it should NOT look like).
> 
> From my research, after disbudding, if scurs start and you catch them early, they can be re-burned. If you allow them to grow out or with an older goat, they either have to stay and be maintained (trimmed) or surgically removed.
> 
> ...


They were surgically de-horned, not disbudded. Apparently they only do goats surgically here, although they do disbud calves. I don't know why, maybe they don't want to buy a different sized iron?
Next time, I rather drive 2 hrs to a goat farm where they offer disbudding services...


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> The disbudding job looks pretty awful.
> 
> Can you move the scur?  I mean, if you grab it with your fingers will it wiggle a little?  It doesn't look to bad to me.
> 
> That lump does not look good.  Is it an abscess?



Yes, the scur wiggles a little since it got big enough to grab. Haven't noticed any significant growth since either. But I'm afraid it will all of the sudden and the other mini scurs too, and I feel the older the kids and scurs get, the worse...
I don't know what to think of the lump. It is soft and moves around, depending how the doeling holds her head. I do believe it is damage from the tight bandages, though. 
If it is inflamed lymph nodes, as the vet thinks, I'm wondering why I shouldn't worry yet; although there are no other symptoms like fever or so and the doeling acts totally fine and normal...


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## germanchickTX (Sep 10, 2015)

Oh, btw, that black stuff on the wounds is bloodstop powder (don't know why the pics are upside down...)
Needless to say, I won't be using that particular vet again. He especially told me how unlikely scurs would be with his method! 
I would love to show him that obviously something with his method went wrong, but I'm afraid he will butcher them again going for the scurs...


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## SheepGirl (Sep 10, 2015)

Swelling looks like a milk goiter.


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## babsbag (Sep 11, 2015)

3-4 weeks is WAY to long to disbudd by burning and surgical removal would be the only way and the way yours look and the description you gave sounds pretty normal for a dehorning. It is not easy or pretty and takes FOREVER to heal. I have one to do that I just didn't get done as a baby but will wait until winter so no flies. I had an adult buck done once to remove a really bad scur, it was a bad experience but the scur was gone.

I am surprised there are scurs after that procedure.

Not sure about the lump, the location would have me a little concerned. I would watch for an abscess and test for CL. Do you have a history on the herd that she came from.?


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## SkyWarrior (Sep 11, 2015)

Ugh.  Dehorning is incredibly painful, bloody, and generally awful.  Most experts recommend against it, which is why I'm surprised your vet recommended it. I guess that's his procedure.

Basically, you're stuck with what was done. It takes forever to heal, as @babsbag says. My guess isn't CL but maybe some sort of abscess. Have the vet, or another one check it out.


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## babsbag (Sep 11, 2015)

Dehorning is HORRIBLE.  I am beyond kicking myself since I have one I have to do. She is a beautiful kid, her mom milks like a champ, and she is friendly, all traits I admire. I tried to disbud her but was just learning and really didn't do much other than deform the horns. My "cleanup my mess" friend was not available until it was too late so now she has horns, and misshapen ones at that.  With an Alpine or Lamancha kid if I go beyond a week it is almost always too late to burn them off and bucklings may have to be done at 3-4 days.


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## germanchickTX (Sep 14, 2015)

SheepGirl said:


> Swelling looks like a milk goiter.


Yes it does, but she is already 5 1/2-6 month old and long weaned. They also get Noble Goat and loose goat mineral, so she shouldn't have a iodine deficiency either.
Since she has no other symptoms and acts fine, I guess I will just wait and see...
Thanks!


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## germanchickTX (Sep 14, 2015)

babsbag said:


> 3-4 weeks is WAY to long to disbudd by burning and surgical removal would be the only way and the way yours look and the description you gave sounds pretty normal for a dehorning. It is not easy or pretty and takes FOREVER to heal. I have one to do that I just didn't get done as a baby but will wait until winter so no flies. I had an adult buck done once to remove a really bad scur, it was a bad experience but the scur was gone.
> 
> I am surprised there are scurs after that procedure.
> 
> Not sure about the lump, the location would have me a little concerned. I would watch for an abscess and test for CL. Do you have a history on the herd that she came from.?


No history on the herd (meat goat breeder). All I know is, that they are a Kiko/Boer mix,an oopsie breeding of still to young parent animals and that the mother didn't get any vaccines before kidding and supposedly didn't have enough milk for the two. That's how and why I got them with 3 days of age as goat milk replacer fed bottle babies.
Thanks


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## germanchickTX (Sep 14, 2015)

SkyWarrior said:


> Ugh.  Dehorning is incredibly painful, bloody, and generally awful.  Most experts recommend against it, which is why I'm surprised your vet recommended it. I guess that's his procedure.
> 
> Basically, you're stuck with what was done. It takes forever to heal, as @babsbag says. My guess isn't CL but maybe some sort of abscess. Have the vet, or another one check it out.


The vet said "inflamed lymph nodes"; with no other symptoms or change not to worry about just yet..."
Goat is doing fine, I guess I'll just wait and see...
Thanks


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## babsbag (Sep 14, 2015)

Well the good news is that at 3 days old they aren't as likely to have been exposed to CL.  I would still be worried as CL IS an inflamed lymph node. If it is do not let the abscess rupture in your fields or pens, it will contaminate the soil for just about forever, seriously.

Many many meat goats herds have CL, I would be very watchful.


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## germanchickTX (Sep 14, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Well the good news is that at 3 days old they aren't as likely to have been exposed to CL.  I would still be worried as CL IS an inflamed lymph node. If it is do not let the abscess rupture in your fields or pens, it will contaminate the soil for just about forever, seriously.
> 
> Many many meat goats herds have CL, I would be very watchful.


This swelling hasn't changed at all, is soft and it seems you can shift it a little around. She has this since weeks, if not month...
That's why I wonder, if the too tight bandage after the dehorning may have caused some damage. I wish I could upload the video how they were breathing and vocalizing with this bandage. It was plain awful; they sounded like hoarse chicken and like pneumonia...
Like I said before, this particular vet I won't be using anymore; he seemed to be afraid even of my horses (one previously abused one with stranger issues and one spoiled brat -not your average dead broke cowboy horses )...
What do you think?
Thxs!


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## SkyWarrior (Sep 15, 2015)

germanchickTX said:


> The vet said "inflamed lymph nodes"; with no other symptoms or change not to worry about just yet..."
> Goat is doing fine, I guess I'll just wait and see...
> Thanks



Uh, does this vet know about CL?  It inflames lymph nodes.


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## babsbag (Sep 15, 2015)

CL abscesses can be big or little and grow quickly or slowly. You can get a blood test done on the kids to see if they have been exposed.

I am not saying that it is CL and I certainly don't want to make it sound like it should be CL just because I am suspicious. I would never wish this on anyone. I just want you to be aware of the possibility.

 When I first got goats I had two with lumps under their ear, a certain CL location. I took a goat into the vet for another reason and she saw the lump. She was certain it was CL. She had me come home and get my other 4 goats so she could aspirate the lump and draw blood. It was not CL  but it was an enlarged lymph node for some other infection their body was fighting off. I treated them with an herbal concoction from Amber technologies called "Life Cell Support"... this is what the company says about it._ 

Life cell immune support is a natural herbal aid to cleanse and detoxify your pet's blood, liver, lymphatic system and stimulate cell regeneration to help maintain your pet's health. _

The lumps went away, don't know if the stuff did it or time but either way they did not have CL even though a trained vet with goats of her own thought they did.

They are goats...they can keep us guessing.


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## germanchickTX (Sep 15, 2015)

SkyWarrior said:


> Uh, does this vet know about CL?  It inflames lymph nodes.


Haven't specifically asked him, but I would assume so with the 4-H goats in town and being a large animal / livestock vet. (Although as I read on other posts, that doesn't necessarily mean a thing). He is still old style with experience and a no-nonsense approach, cares for the animal good and not necessarily what an owner fancies, if you know what I mean...
But I will check some more into it!
Thanks


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 15, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Dehorning is HORRIBLE.  I am beyond kicking myself since I have one I have to do. She is a beautiful kid, her mom milks like a champ, and she is friendly, all traits I admire. I tried to disbud her but was just learning and really didn't do much other than deform the horns. My "cleanup my mess" friend was not available until it was too late so now she has horns, and misshapen ones at that.  With an Alpine or Lamancha kid if I go beyond a week it is almost always too late to burn them off and bucklings may have to be done at 3-4 days.



We are keeping Zamia's buckling from this year.  Same situation.  We are waiting for the weather to cool, but he is going to have to be dehorned. Wouldn't you know the one disbudding we botched would be a buckling we were keeping from our best doe.


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## babsbag (Sep 15, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> Wouldn't you know the one disbudding we botched would be a buckling we were keeping from our best doe.



I botched a lot of them as I was just learning but I have one that I just plain forgot. She is half boer but would like to keep her for a few years to see how she milks; she is too small to breed this year.  I had a buckling hook my ND buckling's collar with his horns. If I hadn't been there the ND would have died... Took the collar off. I HATE HORNS.


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