# Updated: Ketonic doe had 2 full term bucklings



## Oakroot (Apr 18, 2013)

So my Nubian doe is due in 12 days. I have noticed she has become very quiet and dreamy. Normally she is the jump up and yell for you type and gets very excitable about things. Today she did not even leave the barn when every one else went out to graze. After I led her out there she just stood in the field for a while and fell asleep. I later found her snoozing in the barn by her self. She is nor very hungry just sort of picks at feed. When she is awake she just sort of stares off wistfully.  I moved her into the kidding stall since she did not want to be with the herd anyways.  No colostrum or anything so I think she has a bit to go still but anyone else found that some of their does do this before kidding. The best example I can give is someone who is high. She is acting very blissfully stoned.  Definitely not acting sick vitals all seem to be normal just off in her own world.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 18, 2013)

Hmm...I'm not sure that's normal.  Normally when I've seen animals act like that there's something wrong....like pregnancy toxemia.  I'd be concerned if she's not eating.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 18, 2013)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Hmm...I'm not sure that's normal.  Normally when I've seen animals act like that there's something wrong....like pregnancy toxemia.  I'd be concerned if she's not eating.


*
X2, google ketosis and pregnancy toxemia, somewhere to start. My does were completely normal up until they kidded.*


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 18, 2013)

Keep an eye on her and make sure you have on hand things to treat hypocalcemia.  If she is not eating or if she seems to have any trouble moving about, treat her.  If you suspect ketosis, get in touch with a vet so they are on notice.  Could be nothing more than a tired, pregnant momma but better to be safe and prepared.


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## Oakroot (Apr 18, 2013)

I am keeping a very close eye on her, she seems to move around just fine.  But looking at some info I think there may be some Ketosis starting. Going to give my vet a call and see what he recommends.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 18, 2013)

You can buy strips to test for ketosis.

not sure if we got from Tractor supply or if we had to order them.


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## Oakroot (Apr 18, 2013)

So had a chat with my vet, we gave her a shot of Vit A & D and Calcium drench,  started syringing her with the corn syrup, oil and molasses blend, she also got b12 and probiotics. Then she got a shot of Nuflor (poor thing) and she is going on Predef every other day for a while. We are going to nip anything in the bud and get her back on track. I KNEW she was acting odd the past couple of days but there was every chance she could have been just acting normally for goats,  so I am glad I asked you guys. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Renegade (Apr 18, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> So had a chat with my vet, we gave her a shot of Vit A & D and Calcium drench,  started syringing her with the corn syrup, oil and molasses blend, she also got b12 and probiotics. Then she got a shot of Nuflor (poor thing) and she is going on *Predef* every other day for a while. We are going to nip anything in the bud and get her back on track. I KNEW she was acting odd the past couple of days but there was every chance she could have been just acting normally for goats,  so I am glad I asked you guys.
> 
> Thanks everyone!


If you're talking Predef 2X it is a steroid. This will terminate the pregnancy.

Donna


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## Oakroot (Apr 18, 2013)

Renegade said:
			
		

> If you're talking Predef 2X it is a steroid. This will terminate the pregnancy.
> 
> Donna


THANK YOU! I have not given this yet and am very glad I did not. This was not made clear to me at all. In the vet's defense I think there was miscommunication. I think he may have thought the doe was in a bad way which I am sure many are when people call him. You could also tell it was one of those days at that vet office. I don't know what happened and everyone looked like they where trying to be bright and smiley but ya something. I am glad to have the predef on hand and if she takes a turn and spikes a fever and such I will start her on it but there is zero reason to right now. I also would not have given the Nuflor if I had known it was going to hurt as bad as it did. With the horrible weather that was going on and her being off he wanted to make sure pneumonia was not setting in but I do not think I would do that again with out very good reason too. 

As for miss doe she is perking up. About an hour after giving her the syrup/molasses/oil she was looking much more interested in food so I gave her some soaked beet pulp with a good dose of that mixed in. She has been nibbling that and hay all evening. I have seen her drink and take some loose minerals as well. I really think the antibiotics where superfluous but I have them on hand now if I need it. 

It is so hard to learn that balance. Do to much to early and you make things worse do to little or to late and you make things worse. Next time I see a doe acting like this I will be going for the sugar and vitamins first. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Oakroot (Apr 19, 2013)

So the doe is now worse this morning. She is on her feet and moving ok but when I first came in she coughed for a bit. This has stopped now. She keeps grinding her teeth (once a minute or so not constant). She also is stretching her neck just a little bit and moving her jaw sideways (like stretching it) and pulling her lips back a bit. She is acting a lot like that time she had a bit of apple she was chocking on. She is also off food.

As for syringing her with anything if I try no mater how small the amount she shakes her head back and forth makes wild faces. She is not reacting to the taste it is like she feels like it is going down the wrong tube but she is not coughing it back up. She did a bit of this last night but not to this level at all. She has a little bit of foamy spit in the corners of her mouth after all this. It is possible she has just been jabbed in the mouth so many times at this point she is just mad about it. But I am having a hard time reading all this.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 19, 2013)

Have you used a tried doing a ketone test?  I am pretty sure they have them at TSC and are not too badly priced.


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## Oakroot (Apr 19, 2013)

I have not seen them there. 

So I figured out the problem. She was just sick of big syringes and thick paste. I switched from syrup mix to dextrose with water and used a tiny 3ml syringe. Over the span of an hour and a half I was able to get 120ml in her with out any of the violent reaction. I am going to try diluting the syrup and trying again with some of that as well. 

The sugar and water is definitely helping. I am going to keep it up and try and get at least 60 ml if not more in her every hour today and through the night. I am giving her 24 hours. If she can make a big turn around by then and be back to near normal I will let her carry but if by 24 hours I have not seen a huge difference I am going to start the Predef and abort her to see if we can save her.


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## Renegade (Apr 19, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> I have not seen them there.
> 
> So I figured out the problem. She was just sick of big syringes and thick paste. I switched from syrup mix to dextrose with water and used a tiny 3ml syringe. Over the span of an hour and a half I was able to get 120ml in her with out any of the violent reaction. I am going to try diluting the syrup and trying again with some of that as well.
> 
> The sugar and water is definitely helping. I am going to keep it up and try and get at least 60 ml if not more in her every hour today and through the night. I am giving her 24 hours. If she can make a big turn around by then and be back to near normal I will let her carry but if by 24 hours I have not seen a huge difference I am going to start the Predef and abort her to see if we can save her.


You need to treat this doe aggressively with either Revive or Magic. She needs Calcium along with the sugars for energy. She won't like it but it needs to be done.

The Revive recipe we use can be found on post #5 here: http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=25025 

Donna


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## Oakroot (Apr 19, 2013)

Donna you are doing nothing but try and be helpful. So please do not feel like I am upset with you in any way about your post. It helped me narrow down some things but I do have to post a bit of a rant about verbiage. My vet did even worse to me and I see lots of people do it. So it's not you. I am just going to post this and hope it helps someone/anyone down the line. (and this is 90% a rant at my vet)

When a person has a sick animal. Every thing that animal does is in super focus. They won't like, or it will hurt a bit, is not the same scale they may have a total fit when you give this to them. They will absolutely hate this but they need it anyways.  So when my doe was having fits this morning every time I gave her the magic drench I was rightfully pretty concerned. I was unable to get it into her she was having such a violent reaction to receiving it. That is why I switched her to Dextrose and water. Because that I was actually able to get into her. It was not until you said she won't like it that I decided to taste a tiny drop of it. Even in small quantities the calcium stuff is horrendous. It is way worse then "they just won't like it" it practically turns your face inside out is so bad. Now that I knew this I was able to make up a new batch. Dose her with the calcium first and then give her a full dosage of Magic. HUGE difference. So my rant is people if you have experience with a product and you know animal truly hate something or a drug truly burns. Don't sugar coat it when giving advice. If you had a doe that throw her self on the ground because they where so upset at getting a drug. Share that. You can make someone have a much better chance of success if they are forearmed with the knowledge of how the animal will react.  If my vet or heck even the stupid bottle had mentioned a strong reaction to the flavor of this stuff I could have had this doe so much father along in recovery because I would have understood what was going on. There was no way for me to just know that her horrible reactions this morning where caused by the calcium. 


I still am flabbergasted my vet gave me nuflor and said "Ya she will probably squirm at that one." Understatement to the point of lies that. 

So anyways now that I know a bit better how I need to go about this (thank you again Donna, your advice is already making a huge difference) I can hopefully get her on track. I have a plan, and sometimes just having that is infinitely comforting.


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## Oakroot (Apr 19, 2013)

Seeing slow but steady improvement every time I go out.  (She never spiked any sort of temp for anyone wondering) She is starting to pick at hay, she is much more bright eyed and alert when you come into the barn and even called to me this time. She is worried about where her heard mates are again.


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## Renegade (Apr 19, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> Donna you are doing nothing but try and be helpful. So please do not feel like I am upset with you in any way about your post. It helped me narrow down some things but I do have to post a bit of a rant about verbiage. My vet did even worse to me and I see lots of people do it. So it's not you. I am just going to post this and hope it helps someone/anyone down the line. (and this is 90% a rant at my vet)
> 
> When a person has a sick animal. Every thing that animal does is in super focus. They won't like, or it will hurt a bit, is not the same scale they may have a total fit when you give this to them. They will absolutely hate this but they need it anyways.  So when my doe was having fits this morning every time I gave her the magic drench I was rightfully pretty concerned. I was unable to get it into her she was having such a violent reaction to receiving it. That is why I switched her to Dextrose and water. Because that I was actually able to get into her. It was not until you said she won't like it that* I decided to taste a tiny drop of it. Even in small quantities the calcium stuff is horrendous. It is way worse then "they just won't like it" it practically turns your face inside out is so bad.* Now that I knew this I was able to make up a new batch. Dose her with the calcium first and then give her a full dosage of Magic. HUGE difference. So my rant is people if you have experience with a product and you know animal truly hate something or a drug truly burns. Don't sugar coat it when giving advice. If you had a doe that throw her self on the ground because they where so upset at getting a drug. Share that. You can make someone have a much better chance of success if they are forearmed with the knowledge of how the animal will react.  If my vet or heck even the stupid bottle had mentioned a strong reaction to the flavor of this stuff I could have had this doe so much father along in recovery because I would have understood what was going on. There was no way for me to just know that her horrible reactions this morning where caused by the calcium.
> 
> ...


 _Sorry about that. I never really thought about how bad it would taste. I just know how much goats hate having anything shoved in their mouth. I highly recommend getting a drench gun. That way you can get the tip of it way down the side of her mouth past most of her tongue. It's much easier then using a regular syringe._

_Nuflor stings really bad. It's an excellent antibiotic but really tough on goats. The vet should have told you that._

_I'm very happy to hear she is feeling better. Keep medicating her for a few days until she either kids or goes back to eating normally. Add a few handfuls of corn to her normal feed. She needs the carbs for energy. _

Glad I could help. Good luck with her.

Donna


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## Oakroot (Apr 19, 2013)

Thanks Donna. 


So what do you guys think. She made a small bit of progress to day. Not nearly as much as I would have liked though. I just got back in from giving her nutrient drench and miracle and a bit of probiotic. She had more fight in her then I have seen the past two days, and I HAVE been seeing some signs of her brightening back up (She was on her feet most of the day, did some calling to me and the herd) but at the same time she is not really eating she will occasionally take a nibble here and there but it seems like a sick person nibbling some crackers not having a meal. I have pumped a ton of water and sugars into her today though so she may simply not feel hungry. The most promising news is she has never shown any signs of fever. She has held steady at about 102.6 all day with out any problems. I am really hoping this means we do not have true toxemia and she just got way too ketonic and is having a hard time shaking it. 

How long should I keep this up before I say it's time to terminate the pregnancy. I understand that is a personal choice, and not something I am going to decide until I see how she looks tomorrow at minimum but I could use a bit of a more experienced persons insight.   I would assume that as long as she continues to make steady progress I can keep this up, and if I see her take a turn or spike a fever it is time to end things. But how many days is fair to the doe to keep doing this? For those of you who have dealt with this how many days sans food but on miracle and nutrient drench is sustainable? Just trying to get a bit of a bigger knowledge base so I can be a bit more informed to make a choice.


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## babsbag (Apr 19, 2013)

I hope you get up tomorrow and see a huge improvement in her and you don't have to make any choices. I can't  answer your questions but I have been told that if a kid is more than 10 days early the odds are very slim that they will survive. I am sure that your main concern is saving your doe, but if you are hoping to do both (and who wouldn't) then IMO you need to hold off for at least another 2 days, provided that doe is not in a life threatening condition. 

Hopefully someone that has been down this road will come along and answer your real questions.


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## Oakroot (Apr 20, 2013)

She is at 10 days now, but to be honest I am not holding out much hope for the kids right now. I have strong doubts they will make it. But she had even more fight in her at 3 am and again at 7 am. She also had a very small amount of white mucus discharge from her vulva this morning. No sign of any blood or greenness to it. I will temp her again in a few hours and see how she is doing.


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## Oakroot (Apr 20, 2013)

So she is not progressing as fast as I want but I don't know how fast I should expect progress. (I have seen other posts where it took people several days to get blood sugar really back up to normal) I was able to get ketosis strips and test her. Slight to small amounts of ketones detected. Temp is still staying steady and normal. I have seen her have three normal bowel movements today so I hope that means she is eating SOMETHING. She has been interested in coming out and grazing. This morning she did not want to actually eat anything but this afternoon she had probably 15 smile bites of grass. The husband also said she had a bit of warm water on her own too.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 20, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> So she is not progressing as fast as I want but I don't know how fast I should expect progress. (I have seen other posts where it took people several days to get blood sugar really back up to normal) I was able to get ketosis strips and test her. Slight to small amounts of ketones detected. Temp is still staying steady and normal. I have seen her have three normal bowel movements today so I hope that means she is eating SOMETHING. She has been interested in coming out and grazing. This morning she did not want to actually eat anything but this afternoon she had probably 15 smile bites of grass. The husband also said she had a bit of warm water on her own too.


*That sounds like progress, I would make sure she has her favorite feeds available and just keep doing what you are doing and hope she keeps improving.*


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## alsea1 (Apr 20, 2013)

I hope this goes well.
Keeping my fingers crossed for you


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## Oakroot (Apr 21, 2013)

So this is day three of heavy care and day 5 or 6 of her being sick and while I keep seeing promising signs she really is not progressing. For every good moment she has just as many bad. I am pretty sure I am going to start her on Predef in the next 24 hours. She is a really good doe and important to my program. I think I need to put her first. If I was hearing strong heat beats from babies that would be one thing but they have always been very faint with this doe so she probably has a mess of small kids in there which means there chances where never great anyways. At this point I am trading hope in babies for straight hope in getting her better.


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## alsea1 (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear things are not looking better.


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## Oakroot (Apr 21, 2013)

Predef is not induction just much increased chance of early labor. So there is a chance she could still go full term. Not great but a chance. To much more of this and she won't have enough in her to go through labor.  It sucks but I think it is probably the right call at this point.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 21, 2013)

So what's the reason for Predef? I'm not familiar with that.  

If she has ketosis, it's likely because she does not have enough room in her rumen for enough feed to support her and the growing babies.  The babies grown and compress the rumen, which doesn't allow her to take in enough food, even if she ate all day long.  If you haven't treated her with propylene glycol, I'd start and keep her on it until she kids.  This isn't something she can likely pull out of...she'll need treatment until kidding and likely after for a few days or so.  It's a vicious cycle...one she stops eating she gets weaker and the weaker she gets the less likely it is that she'll start eating again.  

Propylene glycol isn't my favorite thing in the world, but it's good treatment for ketosis.  Karo syrup and molasses aren't enough to treat her.  You'll need to drench her with it several times a day, and make sure she doesn't aspirate it because it burns like heck. Here's  a good article on treating.  She's going to need aggressive treatment and don't stop treating until she kids!


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## Oakroot (Apr 21, 2013)

She is already on propylene glycol several times a day. 

Predef is an adrenal steroid that returns blood sugars to normal levels and stabilizes them. It also increases appetite and is anti inflammatory and prevents them from going into shock. It drastically increases the success rate of treat ketosis. However it comes at a cost of a much higher chance of early delivery. Effectively the same as Dex but with a slightly lower chance to induce it seems. Predef 2x is what my vet liked better.


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## alsea1 (Apr 21, 2013)

Prolly should go with what the vet suggested.  
There is always next season for kids


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## Renegade (Apr 21, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> She is already on propylene glycol several times a day.
> 
> Predef is an adrenal steroid that returns blood sugars to normal levels and stabilizes them. It also increases appetite and is anti inflammatory and prevents them from going into shock. It drastically increases the success rate of treat ketosis. However it comes at a cost of a much higher chance of early delivery. Effectively the same as Dex but with a slightly lower chance to induce it seems. Predef 2x is what my vet liked better.


Propylene Glycol is not a good choice for goats. If you want good success throw out the propylene glycol and go back to using Revive or Magic. The doe will hate it but it works when used aggressively. There are two things that doe needs. Sugar or carbs for energy and *calcium*.
We had a doe a few years ago that would not get up at all and would not eat. We gave her 120ml Revive every 2-3 hours around the clock and made her get up and walk. We also put apple juice in her water for the extra sugar. After 4-5 days she would nibble at food and was at least walking around. We continued to treat her 4X a day until she kidded 10 days later. She had 5 kids and raised 3 of them on her own. She lived to be 10 years old and never had another problem.
You should know if you're planning to terminate the pregnancy the Predef alone will not do it. I personally would not give the Predef without also giving Lutalyse 12 hours later. I have a friend who's vet gave his doe Predef but not Lutalyse. The doe died 3 days later. 

JMO

Donna


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## Oakroot (Apr 21, 2013)

alsea1 said:
			
		

> Prolly should go with what the vet suggested.
> There is always next season for kids


We ARE going with what the vet suggested.


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## Oakroot (Apr 21, 2013)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Propylene Glycol is not a good choice for goats. If you want good success throw out the propylene glycol and go back to using Revive or Magic. The doe will hate it but it works when used aggressively. There are two things that doe needs. Sugar or carbs for energy and *calcium*.
> We had a doe a few years ago that would not get up at all and would not eat. We gave her 120ml Revive every 2-3 hours around the clock and made her get up and walk. We also put apple juice in her water for the extra sugar. After 4-5 days she would nibble at food and was at least walking around. We continued to treat her 4X a day until she kidded 10 days later. She had 5 kids and raised 3 of them on her own. She lived to be 10 years old and never had another problem.
> You should know if you're planning to terminate the pregnancy the Predef alone will not do it. I personally would not give the Predef without also giving Lutalyse 12 hours later. I have a friend who's vet gave his doe Predef but not Lutalyse. The doe died 3 days later.
> 
> ...


She is getting both. She gets magic/miracle drench every 2 hours and every 6 she gets a half dose of goat drench which is propylene glycol first ingredient along with B12, A, calcium and other vitamins. At this point the doe is still not showing any signs of toxemia just ketosis so no point in forcing termination just yet. Predef at the dose my vet recommended may cause her to go early but should not cause her to terminate right away. If she starts showing signs of toxemia and we need to get babies out asap I will contact him about inducing. I can understand if you need to get babies our right away that predef alone is not the way to go. It cattle this drug is rather low risk for termination compared to other ketosis treatment options.  It is not that I am planning to terminate I am just realistic that predef has greatly lowered my chances of her going full term. I weighed the pros and cons of giving the predef and decided at this point stabilizing her is more important then risk to kids but I am not ready to terminate just yet. 

She seems to be perking up a bit after starting the Predef though it will not be until tomorrow am before we should expect to see full results.


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## Renegade (Apr 21, 2013)

Nutri Drench is a bottle of propylene glycol with a minute amount of vitamins, calcium, and coloring. You can't get enough calcium into her using that product.

Donna


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## Oakroot (Apr 21, 2013)

Thanks Donna, I can work on getting some more calcium in her as well.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 22, 2013)

tried to take my time and read through all of this.  This is spring time and I didn't read anything mentioning fecal samples or worming.  I would get a fecal sample done on her. 

Did you mention or check eye lid color?  

Have you been giving her the Nuflor?


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## Oakroot (Apr 22, 2013)

Big improvement this afternoon! Ketone strip was extremely slight. Still no signs of any fever. She really wanted to be out in the pasture with the other goats so I let her out (with me right there) she was much improved by that. Tail is up, looking a lot more brite eyed. She is moving around with the herd and taking tiny bites of grass and dried leaves all along the way. She is drinking lots of her own too. She has colostrum in both sides as of this afternoon too and her udders are filling. Still not holding out much hope for kids but if they do survive then at least there will be real colostrum from mom. We will see what happens but things are definitely looking a bit brighter for her.


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## Oakroot (Apr 24, 2013)

Still improving everyday. If I am with her she will spend a long time grazing in the pasture. Not interested in much other food but hey I will take it. Still no signs of any toxemia (no fever, swelling or overt distress). She will hit 145 days tomorrow and while she is starting to bag up she is showing no signs of wanting to kid just yet. She will get her third dose of predef 2x tomorrow. It seems to be providing a big help to her and kids are still moving around so I am seeing no signs it is terminating her pregnancy. 



20k she did start looking anemic a few days ago and we started treating for that as well. Seems to have helped. She was only given a single does of nuflor.


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## babsbag (Apr 26, 2013)

How is your doe?


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## Oakroot (May 6, 2013)

It was a loooong night (to tired to post everything yet) but look what we have to share! 







ETA: Two boys


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## dhansen (May 6, 2013)

Beautiful outcome to a "not-very-fun pregnancy"!  I had a goat with toxemia last year and it is NOT fun at all.  She also delivered twins, but I thought she and/or her kids would die.  Glad to hear the outcome was AWESOME!


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 6, 2013)

Very nice looking boys.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 6, 2013)

*Congrats! I've been following this thread hoping everything would work out! Glad everyone is alive and well!!! *


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## babsbag (May 7, 2013)

Ahhh, so cute. Just goes to show what a little (a lot in this case) of TLC can do and that nature sometimes has a different plan than we do. I am so glad she was able to carry them to term and deliver. Good job mama goat, and you.


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## Pearce Pastures (May 7, 2013)




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