# What we do as goat breeders....



## Southern by choice (Oct 18, 2014)

These are some of the things we do...

We first find out what the person is looking for and their goals.
We tell people about our goats.
We have registered and unregistered.
We provide pedigrees on our registered goats and lineage on our unregistered goats.
We provide our most current CAE, CL, Johnes test results (whole herd)
We explain limitations, strengths, weaknesses of individual goats

_Example_ – we have a great doe with great pedigree with heavy milklines as is apparent on her pedigree yet her weaknesses – she doesn't have the best confirmation. Beautiful udder and teats but her front and shoulders are a bit “wonky” if you will. As far as a milker awesome, but as a FF she did go down in production earlier than she should have. Unregistered doe has been in milk for 16 months and has no indication she will be dropping off anytime soon.  I have one unregistered Nigie that only gives 1 qt a day (next freshening we think she will do better) but her milk is soooo good she is a keeper if not for any other reason than I like her milk for my coffee LOL Another registered Nigie FF is giving 1 1/2 qts day. Her milk is great! 

Of course we do Lamanchas, mini manchas and Nigerians. We also have 1 Alpine and 1 Nubian (both will be bred for mini's). So it really depends on what a person is looking for and what their goals are.

We rather engage and answer all questions and offer answers for questions that people don't know to ask. If we do not know what a particular goat will produce (FF you just don't have history on that goat to know) we let people know that the doeling is from a first freshener and we don't know what output will be. Our FF offspring are usually sold at a lower price. Exception is if the doeling is retained long enough for the dam's history to be established.

If we know a person is serious about one of our goats then we go further.
We will run a fecal and give them a brief overview of what we are doing, show them how we run them allow them to look through the scope etc.


Sidetrack for a funny story- we had a couple travel a considerable distance, we were going over the goats and when the goats they were looking at pooped we picked it up off the ground and ran fecals- we were trying to show the ease of it and also to get a count. There were 0 parasites on the slide. We ran the next one – 0 parasites on the slide. Now that is great BUT when you are trying to show someone you want to see at least 1 so they can see what they would be looking for! LOL I finally pulled my book out as I had just run 13 fecals a few days before- 1 of the goats had 2 eggs the other we never ran a fecal on. Finally I said here is my book She really did have 2 eggs (50 EPG)
They got a chuckle out of it that I was irritated that I had nothing to show them.
Yet they could also see from the book that we had 2 goats that _did _need dewormed (one was due to kid in a few weeks- they tend to have a bloom at this point due to the hormones).

Now that is not always the case- The point is we will do a fecal right there and we get to see together what that count is. We do regular monitoring and if a goat has a high load than we will deworm- record it and tell the person when, how many (EPG counts), dewormer etc. If it is a kid we look for cocci.

We go over every inch of he goat. We use our own checklist (on our website)
http://www.winginitfarms.com/buyers-checklist

We give a sheet on what we expect from them as far as a new owner- these are recommendations.
We do FAMACHA with card in hand.
We send home the goats history- CD&T dates, fecal EPG counts, cocci counts, dates, weights etc. just about everything on the list.
Our goats are bathed and “dipped” before they leave our farm- why? Because mites are microscopic and if a goat gets mites it may be awhile before there is evidence so we feel that doing that is the best way to prevent any kind of issue.

Often experienced goat owners don't need as much time but we have also found even those experienced will learn something. We also get to glean from other owners too!
We look at our goats as a bigger picture. We believe pedigrees are great but a pedigree is not the whole goat. We want good parasite resistance. Good milkers, long lactation, steady lactation, healthy, no environmental allergy issues, well mannered and overall a solid goat! We also look at feed conversion.
We explain what these things mean and why they are important. A goat with poor parasite issues will not be great as a dairy goat. Who wants to get lots of great delicious milk that they have to pitch all the time from chronic worm issues.

Each goat we have on our farm is different. Looking at the overall goat is key.
Management is also important. Environmental factors are big contributors to the health of a goat. Wet humid hot regions will have more issues.

I think support is a big thing too. Will the breeder be there? Is the breeder knowledgeable?
If it is a new breeder they may not be knowledgeable and that is ok, it does mean you will need to be smart about what you do. Often relationships develop through buying/selling goats.

There are times we get so busy we will fail to send something or get back to a person in a timely manner – for those times I feel like I failed. Yet I know everyone we have ever placed a goat with are great people and would just call if it was real important.

Hope this helps. We know of very few breeders that go as far as we do but we do it because we LOVE what we do! Health is the most important thing to us. We want to know that we are sending out a healthy goat, we want our clients to walk away educated, confident, comfortable in their decision.

Above all we stress the importance of finding a good vet in their area. Building a relationship with a good vet is critical when owning goats!


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2014)

thanks, this is great information especially when one is just starting to consider adding goats.  Will continue to read and see what others add!  Thx Southern


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2014)

I have another question, if we are looking at breeder websites in our area before traveling to look so we can inform ourselves with knowledge, is there specific information we should be looking for?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2014)

Websites can be tricky. Many breeders we know do not have websites. Great goats- no website. Websites are not always up to date and may not reflect availability or all the info you are looking for. (like mine )

Sometimes you can get a feel for the farm's philosophy or focus.

Many websites have pics of goats, breeding dates, and cost. Some may have pedigrees online. Websites take a lot of time and they are not always reflective of the level of commitment from the breeder.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2014)

That makes sense about the websites, I know it doesn't take place of talking to the breeder and visiting the animals before making a purchase but I would like to go with as much information/knowledge as possible to make the best decision possible.  

The couple of sites we are looking at list about the CAE and Johne's dieses test results/year but nothing about CL- so this is one question we would need an answer on.

Does a breeder typically test every year for CL, CAE and Johne's disease? 

Is it a good idea to request a health certificate on the animals even if the breeder is in the same state?  The last thing we want to do is offend a breeder but given the prices of the animals we want to make sure it is healthy.

We are in the process of reading Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats and working on figuring out pens/pasture/fencing. We have the ability for them to live inside when needed and especially at night.  At this point we are thinking of 2 does.  We are also researching the idea of AI (last weekend the University system had a day long seminar about goats and one of the topics was on AI- of course we had a full schedule and wasn't able to attend-I will be watching to see if they hold another one at some point).

we would like the goats for milk and our kids would show them as 4-H projects(hence the 2 does), at this point we really aren't planning to go to bigger shows.    We want goats that are healthy as this is of 1st importance to us and of course that they produce milk.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2014)

The CL is a bit trickier - the number one reason is expense.

Some breeders simply do not do CL because they have never seen a lump. Not a great indicator.
Some will do CL testing for a few years in a row and not continue after that.

Many breeders say they do not need to continue as they have a "closed herd".
*There is a BIG problem with this terminology*.
CLOSED herd means just that! CLOSED!

Any breeder that takes goats off their property to show, lease a buck out, take a doe out for breeding etc IS NOT CLOSED!
A closed herd means no adding of goats, no going offsite either. 
All those scenarios listed above create risk, "bio-security" is no longer secure.

 In a TRUE closed herd a breeder may test for a few years for CL and then discontinue. 
This is understandable. If you are out of state and send serum to UCDavis it is $14.50 test. 
20 goats= $290 plus overnight shipping
30 goats+ $435 Plus overnight shipping
That is just for CL

Our state lab is very reasonable for CAE and Johnes- $1.50 per test. Their out of state is $3 per test. Our state lab doesn't do CL so they ship it to UC DAvis
20 goats for CAE & Johnes (in state) =$60
30 goats= $90

This can really add up. If you cannot draw your own blood and need a vet to come out there is the farm call and blood draw fees and if they handle all the rest MOST jack up the price.
Recently had a lady in VA whose vet was going to charge $178 for testing on *2 *goats- mind you no farm call she had to take the goats to the Vets!


We also recommend that even if the goat is coming from a clean tested herd it is best to test the goat when it gets to 8 months of age. If it is an adult test while in quarantine. This way you have records for YOUR goats not the herd they came from.

The health certificate is usually unnecessary. It is an added expense. When we bring a new goat it we do have our vet come out for an exam. We are a bit over the top though, most simply do not do this. I don't think it is always necessary, most of the time it is not. We do it because I don't have a stethoscope. 2 of my vets are constantly bugging me to get one so I can check heart, lungs, rumin. BUT I LIKE having our vets check the goats, it is an added assurance for me. You may need a certificate to show in 4-H.. I am not sure.

If you plan on showing for 4-H then I would ask your local 4-H leader  if they have any recommendations. Find out the requirements at least and that gives you a start of what to look for. 

AI is becoming more popular in goats. Personally I rather just have a buck! Did AI in canines years ago, hated it and that was far easier than in  goats. Certainty has it's advantages though especially if there are lines you really want.

I am biased though- I LOVE BUCKS!


You cannot be worried about "offending". 
Believe me you can put yourself in a very bad position by NOT asking the right questions or requesting to see the test results. 
Just because a breeder may have an awesome reputation doesn't mean you shouldn't ask.

We had a recent experience with this which I will share on a different thread. IF we would have followed our NORMAL protocol when buying a few goats this year, not only us, but the breeder would have discovered months and months ago that they had a problem. Absolutely wonderful people and awesome breeders had their whole world shook. So many of us in the goat world were devastated for them - our hearts are still broken for them.  The most honorable people.

When we visit a farm and we are considering an animal we usually will grab a fecal take it home and run it. This gives us good info.
Doesn't mean we won't purchase the goat but with the data we can ask the right questions. When was the goat dewormed? Any cocci preventatives? What dewormer etc. If the goat was dewormed recently yet has a super high load that isn't a good thing. If they do a cocci preventative and I see oocysts we may reconsider that goat. We know once the animal is move there will be a bloom so if it is already super high we could end up with a newly purchased goat that ends up going down and maybe even die if that load  explodes.

I want to add that there are some vets that are simply "anti-testing". We purchased 2 goats over the years from a breeder that does what her vet tells her and she doesn't test, the parent stock of the animals all come from tested herds. When we got the first animal from her (we really wanted the lines) we purchased the animal with the condition if the animal was positive for anything it would be returned for full refund. For these animals we do 2 series of testing 6 months apart for  consecutive Neg results and thereafter they are tested yearly.

This year we changed our whole farm around so we added and sold some goats. We will do several years of CL testing after we are again closed. We are getting one more buck so not closed yet.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2014)

once again, thanks for sharing all the above information, it defiantly gives us some more points to consider and other items to research.  I also bookmarked your website to read over and learn from too!


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 19, 2014)

We test ours once per year for CAE and Johnnes. We don't do CL testing for a. the cost b. no indications that any have it.  Most of the people we know don't test for CL, some do.  Some just test for CAE and not Johnnes.  We know one who tests for CAE, TB and Brucelliosis.  Not sure why they test for TB and Brucelliosis from what I understand there hasn't been a case in livestock since the 40's.  That breeder is also a large animal vet. I guess I need to ask him why?

We get  fecals run at the state lab twice per year on every animal we have.  So, we can provide that documentation.  We like to do that because we have such low numbers we can show the parasite profile on the entire herd from an independent lab.  We do other fecals ourselves as needed, mostly kids looking for coccidia.  While we have never had a worm problem, we have had an issue the last two kidding seasons with coccidia.  But, that is really more of an environmental factor than anything else it's been so wet, and overstocking which is our fault.

Most of the animals I sell are from referrals from our vet.  Second, referrals from breeders we know who don't breed Nigerians, but standards.  Third, referrals from other people who have bought animals from us, or a repeat sale to a previous buyer.  Third, website.  Fourth, Craigslist. 

We know someone  here in Wake County who got burned.  Not going to say the breed other than they were standards from a supposedly reputable breeder in VA.  These were their first goats. Bought 3 does from them. And then paid $1500 for the son of an ADGA National Champion from western part of NC as a herd sire.  Does, had CL, gave it to the buck.  He had them all put down.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2014)

that's sad to hear OFA, I know how quick we get attached to our critters so can only imagine how hard that was to go through.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 20, 2014)

I have been inspired
We have been doing this for 5 years
Going to do a thread on my farm journal on the entire " strange trip" it's been going from a "keeper" to a "breeder"
Been ups and downs, started with 3 does
We've had as many as 30
It would be informative to those just starting oit


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## Southern by choice (Oct 20, 2014)

OneFineAcre said:


> We test ours once per year for CAE and Johnnes. We don't do CL testing for a. the cost b. no indications that any have it.  Most of the people we know don't test for CL, some do.  Some just test for CAE and not Johnnes.  We know one who tests for CAE, TB and Brucelliosis.  Not sure why they test for TB and Brucelliosis from what I understand there hasn't been a case in livestock since the 40's.  That breeder is also a large animal vet. I guess I need to ask him why?
> 
> We get  fecals run at the state lab twice per year on every animal we have.  So, we can provide that documentation.  We like to do that because we have such low numbers we can show the parasite profile on the entire herd from an independent lab.  We do other fecals ourselves as needed, mostly kids looking for coccidia.  While we have never had a worm problem, we have had an issue the last two kidding seasons with coccidia.  But, that is really more of an environmental factor than anything else it's been so wet, and overstocking which is our fault.
> 
> ...



That is why I don't understand the thinking behind not testing for CL. Not having lumps is not really a great indicator. For a little bit of $ it would have spared them thousands. 



OneFineAcre said:


> I have been inspired
> We have been doing this for 5 years
> Going to do a thread on my farm journal on the entire " strange trip" it's been going from a "keeper" to a "breeder"
> Been ups and downs, started with 3 does
> ...



Glad you have been inspired! 
I think the first 3-4 years there is so much you  learn and end up tweaking and adjusting  and like you said "Ups and downs", lots of goats, reducing #'s etc I think it is VERY helpful for those starting out to understand sometimes your goals, needs, or focus may change but those experiences along the way are worth it! 

That is what I am explaining in my part 2 update about our entire re-focus. 
I just need to find the time! UGH
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/southerns-long-overdue-update-part-1.29977/


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## babsbag (Oct 20, 2014)

Time...what is time? Why is it I am retired and still don't have time?  I used to own a resale store for kid's stuff and my mom worked with me. I used to tell her I can explain things to you or I can just do it. I don't have time to do both. 

I would love to keep a journal and document the building of my dairy, but I can either spend my time working on the dairy, or document it, I don't have time to do both.

We will patiently wait for part 2


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 21, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> That is why I don't understand the thinking behind not testing for CL. Not having lumps is not really a great indicator. For a little bit of $ it would have spared them thousands.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think the biggest reason most don't test for CL is the inaccuracy of the blood testing.  Not the same issue as false positives like the Johnnes tests, but false negatives.
Our vet didn't think it would be beneficial, and the vets we know who breed goats didn't either for that reason.

If someone doesn't want to buy a goat from me because I don't test for CL, that would be  fine.   I've managed to sell every one I've ever wanted to sell, and even some I wasn't even planning to sell.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 21, 2014)

Funny how 1/2 the vets don't recommend and 1/2 do. 
2 out of the 3 I have do recommend it because at least if it is "positive" you can have an idea and monitor the titer levels.
My one vet has goats and the attitude is don't test if you aren't going to do anything about it anyway.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 21, 2014)

So for those of you who also have chickens, how do the goats get along with them?  How do you think goats would get along with peacocks?  Could they share the same area provided the feed for the peacocks is out of goat range?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 21, 2014)

Don't know about peacocks 
Our Chickens, geese, ducks all live together with the goats.
Years ago some of our goats got lungworm...we treated them and that is about the time we added Geese and ducks. We have never had an issue since. We never find a snail in the  whole area... we have lots of little streams too. Geese did the trick!
I was going to have the last of our geese slaughtered when I remembered how they solved that problem. Geese are staying.
Outside of those fields... unbelievable number of snails and slugs.
I believe the chickens also contribute to parasite management.

We do have an area that is hotwired so the chickens can go under and get to their feed _without_ the goats getting to it.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 21, 2014)

Hens and Roos said:


> So for those of you who also have chickens, how do the goats get along with them?  How do you think goats would get along with peacocks?  Could they share the same area provided the feed for the peacocks is out of goat range?


Goats get along fine with chickens.  I don't know about peacocks. Probably ok.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 21, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Funny how 1/2 the vets don't recommend and 1/2 do.
> 2 out of the 3 I have do recommend it because at least if it is "positive" you can have an idea and monitor the titer levels.
> My one vet has goats and the attitude is don't test if you aren't going to do anything about it anyway.



I don't know what that means about " not testing if you aren't going to do anything about it anyway"

I see what you mean about if it is positive you can monitor.

That's not the issue.  The issue is the fact that it is not particularly reliable at identifying positive animals.

You said yourself, the CL testing is expensive and I still see no reason for the expense of just annually testing the herd if the test isn't accurate. 

If you have CL you will have an abcess.  If you have any abcess you test the pus on that animal.

Cocoa had an abcess on a salivary gland this year that we had to have vet sedate her to lance.  Vet said it wasn't CL by the appearance of the pus and the odor.  But, we still had that pus tested.  We did that for our own peace of mind, not for sales purposes.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 21, 2014)

OneFineAcre said:


> If you have CL you will have an abcess.  If you have any abcess you test the pus on that animal.



INTERNAL CL may never show lumps externally. 
However internal CL can be passed on to all other animals in the herd. Much depends on where those internal "lumps" are. That is NOT my OPINION,  comes from the vets at UCDavis.

I agree the testing is not the greatest but it's all we've got and it should be a concern to any dairy goat breeder as there is suspicion that it can affect humans. Hopefully better testing will be developed.

Some time ago I posted about the vet from UC Davis that had a test group. 3% of the animals with titers of 1:16 had NO LUMPS yet at time of slaughter were found to have internal CL .  

We know someone that bought a $1500 buck on the condition the animal test negative. Blood was drawn sent out and while awaiting the results the buck developed a large lump. It did test positive for CL buck was sent on it's way of course but it also had come from a breeder that said we've never had a lump.

Monitoring one's herd is individual. To each his own.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 21, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> INTERNAL CL may never show lumps externally.
> However internal CL can be passed on to all other animals in the herd. Much depends on where those internal "lumps" are. That is NOT my OPINION,  comes from the vets at UCDavis.
> 
> I agree the testing is not the greatest but it's all we've got and it should be a concern to any dairy goat breeder as there is suspicion that it can affect humans. Hopefully better testing will be developed.
> ...



I guess this is just one of those things that you and I will have to agree to disagree on.

You agree the testing isn't the greatest but you think you should still do it.  I don't.  Pretty black and white.

With the current blood test animals can test negative and still have CL i.e. false negative.  I think false negatives are much more troublesome than false positives.

You are right, we each have to do what we think is best.  We certainly try to be responsible.  But, I can't justify the expense when no one that I know besides you does this testing, and 3 vets tell me to not waste the money.

Again, it would be perfectly fine if someone did not want to purchase an animal from me because I don't test for CL.  I would wish them good luck. That was the original topic of the thread.  I was just trying to add to the topic with what we do as a breeder regarding trying to provide some assurance to potential goat buyers as to herd health.  I was not making a statement that I was right or wrong with what we do.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 21, 2014)

I think it's great that different ideas and thoughts are being shared, it helps give insight into possibilities and that there is no one way to do things. thanks


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2014)

I test for CL since I live in CA it doesn't cost much. I have two goats that show a positive titer, but neither have had lumps and one titer actually went down. They tested at 1:16 and 1:32. The next time I tested, two years later,  they were both 1:16.

 When I first tested they told me that anything over 1:8 was considered positive. In 2012 UC Davis published the article below in the _CAHFS Connection_ so now I don't know if my goats have CL or not. Can they be exposed and have the antibodies and yet not be a carrier or be considered positive?   It seems that it is any bodies guess. I have many many off spring from those original 2 does and they all test <1:8 so until I see an abscess I am going with the " I don't have CL attitude", not much else I can do. If the titers go up then I guess I will have to reevaluate the situation.

So what the article is telling us non statistical geeks is that when using the SHI test 87% of the positive diagnosis are correct and 80% of the negative diagnosis are correct. So 13% could have false positive and 20% a false negative.

*Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) diagnostics
*
_*Caseous Lymphadenitis, CL, *caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, can present a diagnostic
challenge in sheep and goats. Abscess material collected via syringe or surgical drainage (external abscesses) or at necropsy (internal abscesses) can be submitted for bacterial culture.

Serum samples are tested for CL antibodies with a synergistic hemolysin inhibition (SHI) test. CL abscesses, particularly external ones, can be very effectively protected from the animal’s immune

system, resulting in low SHI titers. A 2-fold rise in paired serum samples taken 3-4 weeks apart indicate recent infection.

Titers ≥1:256 are rarely seen in animals without internal abscess. Titers
1:8 to 1:128 can be found in both infected and uninfected animals; however, the higher the

titer, the more likely an animal is infected. For diagnosis of internal abscess, the SHI test has a sensitivity

of about 87% and a specificity of about 80%.
_


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 21, 2014)

Hens and Roos said:


> I think it's great that different ideas and thoughts are being shared, it helps give insight into possibilities and that there is no one way to do things. thanks



Very true.
Different stokes for different folks.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 22, 2014)

You are more than welcome to disagree but INTERNAL CL is not an opinion. 

*Nobody but us tests for CL? really? Just us? seriously? *

The thread is "what WE do as goat breeders” not “what do you do as a goat breeder”
I am glad you are inspired to do your own thread, input on threads is wonderful.
However your combativeness is unnecessary. This is part of _our_ herd management.
If you do not feel it is necessary in _your_ herd management, than so be it. I see no need for you to get so defensive about a practice that you don't subscribe to.

There are many vets out there and each one has their own ideas and opinions on any given matter. All may be equally good vets but have differing opinions.
~Some will simply not band a goat, they only cut.
~Some will not wether til 16 weeks. Some 20 weeks, some 2 days-2 weeks.
~Some will not disbud with out sedation or nerve block, some feel that method is dangerous.
~Some believe testing is unnecessary, some do not.
~Some vets think goats should be vaccinated for blackleg. Some do not.
The list goes on.

It is up to us to look at what WE believe to be best for our herd. I certainly do not always see eye to eye with any of our vets yet I have enough relationship with them to respect their input, and they respect that I do not always agree.
Some nod and do whatever their vet says, some will question.
Some will take the time and look at the method, research, pro's and con's. Etc and determine whether it benefits their herd or not.
Johnes testing by serum is the not the most accurate way to test but many still do it. 
Johnes testing isn't even recommended til 18 months of age yet most people test way earlier.
I have many years in human medicine and vet medicine. I am not a doctor or a vet but have enough experience to evaluate a given matter and decide what is best for me and my animals. There are times vets are wrong. Years ago a drug had come out for canines, I refused it based on the fact there were not enough trials run and not good enough data, the vet (new vet I was using) was furious and reminded me "HE" was the vet. etc- Less than one year later the drug was pulled because of the number of deaths it had caused. A vet I worked with many years ago misdiagnosed an ear issue, in private I told him he was wrong- LOL- we had a bet for lunch- I said it was scabies (_Sarcoptes scabei)_ he said_ NO WAY! _
I ran the slide-  I got a free lunch!  I had a vet tell me my 19 week old pup had Pyometra, I knew she was wrong. Perhaps though I should heave just listened and had her uterus ripped out.
Maybe when my goat got listeria and was mis-diagnosed by our first vet I should have not sought a second opinion. 
As layman we rely on our vets but vets are human and are fallible.
It is our responsibility to receive their input, look at all the info and ultimately do what WE feel is best. The vet you show with is a vet we recommend to people in that region, we know he is a really good vet, but I can still disagree.

We are not hobbyist.
We LIVE off of our farm.
As a “homesteader” our management and goals may be different than another persons. 
I still have a responsibility to do all I can to ensure I have a healthy herd and kids leaving my farm are healthy.

Compared to other tests CL is more expensive.
As far as cost... a person could test 20 goats for the cost of approximately the price of one kid @ $300. Depending on the average price of a kid. @ $250 a kid that would be 17 goats tested. If out of those 17-20 goats and 10 kid, with an average of twins- 20 kids at $250 each, well that is $5000. That is 5% of revenue brought in by kids alone, IMO that is rather an insignificant expense.

Like all other testing it is just a "tool" used for monitoring our herd.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 22, 2014)

No, *I* was not being defensive or combative at all.
It does seem to upset you if I disagree with you though.  And this isn't the first time I've seen this.  In fact, it seems like almost everything I say you take exception to, unless of course I'm complimenting your new animals.
Even though I state that I'm not saying that I'm right or wrong, you seem to have a need to prove that I am in fact wrong.  And that's not the first time you have stated in a condescending fashion that you are not a "hobbyist", that you make a living off of your "farm"
But, you are right this was your thread about what you do.
Perhaps it would be best if I just not disagree with you going forward. That way you can spend less time arguing with me and have more time to work on your farm.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 24, 2014)

okay, there is talk about having loose minerals available for the goats, is this a  mix or individual minerals that are bought separate and put out in separate piles?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 24, 2014)

It is a mix.
We use Manna Pro Goat Minerals
http://www.mannapro.com/products/goat/goat-mineral/


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## Southern by choice (Oct 24, 2014)

Oops- meant to add there are blocks also we don't use them as they can wear teeth down, as so we've been told... BUT we have heard of "softer" blocks. There are also blocks that may have more copper or selenium etc. Many with meat goats put blocks out. I am concerned about the high level of salt.
No all too familiar with blocks, many report great success with them though.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 24, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> It is a mix.
> We use Manna Pro Goat Minerals
> http://www.mannapro.com/products/goat/goat-mineral/



good to know, was hoping it was a bagged mixed, their website shows it can be gotten at our local Farm and Fleet store


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 22, 2014)

Has anyone had issues with more fleas, mites and such this year on their animals?  I know our dogs have been more itchy this year and we aren't the only ones it seem dealing with this issue.


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## norseofcourse (Nov 22, 2014)

There is an ad on my local craigslist, offering goat stud service (driveway breedings only...).

Apparently their only criterion is that the doe 'must be healthy looking'.

I wonder who is taking the bigger chance, the owners of the bucks or the owners of the does?  Either way, not sure it's a risk I'd want to take.  Although I know many breed this way rather than keep a buck, and I'm guessing it does usually work out alright.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 22, 2014)

norseofcourse said:


> There is an ad on my local craigslist, offering goat stud service (driveway breedings only...).
> 
> Apparently their only criterion is that the doe 'must be healthy looking'.
> 
> I wonder who is taking the bigger chance, the owners of the bucks or the owners of the does?  Either way, not sure it's a risk I'd want to take.  Although I know many breed this way rather than keep a buck, and I'm guessing it does usually work out alright.



_healthy looking   _Just WOW!

Glad my goats can't read   I don't want them knowing that there are goats out there like that!


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 22, 2014)

maybe an on-line dating service...


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 22, 2014)

saw an ad for this on CL advertising it for goats...does this even work?  Figure the cattle panels or similar would be a better choice.

ElectroStop 10/42/12 fencing


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## Southern by choice (Nov 22, 2014)

"Driveway breeding"  is generally a term used.  Some maybe mean that literally but more often than not there is a small pen where the doe and buck are put together for their 15 seconds of "love" 
But yes, some people keep them on a lead and bring the buck on a lead. Nigie and mini bucks are one thing, I cannot imagine a 200 lb buck on a lead trying to mate. I know often our goats do this whole courting, dancing, and romancing before they get around to it.
A few times our does have been like "uh... yeah, I'm standing- get on with it" and the buck is still trying to woo her. Goats


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 26, 2014)

So a friend who also has goats asked me why we are feeding whole milk to our 5 week old baby ND instead of the goat kid milk replacer...they use it and feel that the goats do better on it then whole milk.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 26, 2014)

I think the answer to that is simply what has worked for the individual person. IMO sheep need replacer. 
We don't have much experience with it but I can share our experiences.

We got a 2 day old buckling and bottle fed him whole milk, that was after asking MANY people beforehand. LOL  We had a little bit of goat milk but not enough to spare. He did great and gained like crazy. We never had any scour, soft poo, nothing.

This year our Kiko doe got bluebag mastitis days after giving birth. Sad! We had her euthanized. We started out with replacer our vet had given us (our vet is very generous) we kept them on this for awhile... they always stayed skinny and were not growing well. We SHOULD have switched them MUCH sooner than we did but after we switched them to whole cow's milk they grew and gained great. No poo issues at all. Pood less on replacer more on whole milk... 
They didn't seem to like the replacer that much either because RARELY would they finish a bottle, and that is highly unusual for a bottle baby as they scream for more no matter how full they are.
The two were definitely a little stunted and they are still small for Kiko's. I do think they will mature and catch up. Their weights are great now but they are really short! LOL almost "mini" Kiko's 

Not much to go on... but those are our 2 experiences.


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 26, 2014)

that's make sense...everyone has to do what works for them!

okay for those of you who also have chickens, would it be possible to post pictures of how you keep the chicken feed safe from the goats. 

Also do you have problems with the goats eating the chicken poop?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 26, 2014)

I had the door closed.. my goats would be having a fit if they heard that last line! 
We use to have a rail up high where the chickens fly up on the rail and eat out of a long feeder rail out of goats reach... of course that was Nigie reach... Standard goats required us to change it up...
We have a long rail behind a section of hotwire in the woods... chickens can go under the wire and get to the section that has the feed rail ...goats cannot.
We tried hog panels etc. we had 40 -45 lb goats fitting through the 6 inch squares... Still cannot believe they can squish through but in a goats mind they can do anything, for the potential to kill themselves, for chicken feed. 

I'd love to hear what others do too!


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