# agouti/steel genetics



## promiseacres (Sep 13, 2016)

have 4 10 day old kits. Out of my blue buck Sam. (Out of a blue tort and black) & Naomi (broken opal and broken black) no otters, chins, or steels in pedigrees. Naomi did have a lot of frosting as a kit.
  this is naomi


----------



## DutchBunny03 (Sep 24, 2016)

Your rabbits must have had a recessive otter gene. The gene was recessive for the entire pedigree, and then showed itself when the rabbits bred.


----------



## promiseacres (Sep 24, 2016)

Well from my research otter cannot "hide" behind self. BUT agouti can be hidden by 2 steel genes (EsEs) causing the agouti to appear self. So at this point suspect Naomi is a super steel, and the kits most likely are Opals (hard to tell due to being brokens) the outlines are very tan and should start showing their undercoat soon. 1 of the broken blues has the frosty look like Naomi did as a kit.


----------



## DutchBunny03 (Sep 24, 2016)

Cool.


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 18, 2016)

Kits are 6 weeks
Now wondering if the 2 I am questioning are gold tipped blue steel.


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 18, 2016)




----------



## animalmom (Oct 18, 2016)

I don't have any answers on your genetics, however those are some beautiful rabbits.


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 18, 2016)

A steel gene expert might confirm but here is the best explanation I have found. 
1. Self (aa) x self (aa) cannot result in an agouti (AA or Aa) rabbit. But an agouti which carries 2 steel genes (Aa---ESES) will look self, known as a super steel 
2. My broken blue almost has to be a super steel to get any agouti kits when bred to a self buck. (Knowing his background plus offspring of his from an agouti doe, he is definitely self) 
3. The 2 kits that appear opal would be Aa ____ES- making them gold tipped blue steel. They can't be simply opal bc mom doesn't show her agouti gene.  The other 2 should be aa ______ES-  because we know the sire is Ee (out of a tort and black) 

My head is spinning.


----------



## DutchBunny03 (Oct 18, 2016)

The picture is pretty small on my screen, so I'm not sure. But are you completely sure that those are steels? I have a few steels, and they look a lot different.


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 18, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> The picture is pretty small on my screen, so I'm not sure. But are you completely sure that those are steels? I have a few steels, and they look a lot different.


In Dutch steels only come in black. These  would be blue based plus being a rex fur won't look the same.  If you've any insight on how 2 selfs would create agouti bunny, let me know. But haven't found any other explanations.  I don't even own an adult agouti buck. So absolutely know the sire. I am definitely keeping the buck so will keep everyone updated.  But from a conversation with another vlop breeder these can't be simple opals.


----------



## DutchBunny03 (Oct 18, 2016)

In Dutch, steels actually appear in two colors; gold-tipped and silver tipped. Genetics are an intricate thing. Your rabbits could be a mutation, or they are not actually the color you think they are at all. Some rabbits go through a very dramatic coat change when they molt.


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 19, 2016)

Yes genetics are intricate, BUT tons of people have studied and published their findings on the topic. To say it's just a mutation and they aren't an actual color means I should cull the entire line as i am raiisng show bunnies that have to fit a standerd. Which I think would be quite the loss. Maybe that's what you would do, I would rather research and become more educated.     www.arba.net/district/9/lop_color_genetics.htm
Here is a good overview on lop color genetics if interested in understanding the genetics.

BTW in any breed there's gold or silver tipped steel, AND can be any variety such as blue, chocolate, black, ect. The gold or silver is based on the "C" genes.


----------



## Hens and Roos (Oct 19, 2016)

Will be watching to see how the color turns out for you!


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 19, 2016)

Ugh, incomplete steel or Aa_____ ES e also can appear self.... but atleast I think I am getting closer to figuring it out. One key that these 2 aren't "normal" opals is very little ear lacing.


----------



## Bunnylady (Oct 19, 2016)

So can Esej - I once bred a NZW to a Harlequin and got a whole litter of solid black bunnies.


----------



## DutchBunny03 (Oct 19, 2016)

@promiseacres , the litter would not necissarily have to be culled. Most rabbit breeds and varieties came from mutations in the rabbit's genes. The Rex breed came from a mutation in the fur. So did the Havana, Satin, and Tan. Lops are a mutation from the normal pricked-up ears. If it is a mutation, and not just an unmolted coat(which it very well may be), the rabbits could be used to develop a new coat variety in Lops. But, not many people have the time or money to try to create a new breed/variety. I toyed with the idea of a Satinized Dutch, but my bank account said no. Show rabbits must be culled judiciously. I dont kill the kits, like some very serious show breeders, but i sell them as pets. Dutch are a pain in the neck to get a well-marked one, so a litter that is all well-marked is very rare.


----------



## Bunnylady (Oct 19, 2016)

promiseacres said:


> Ugh, incomplete steel or Aa_____ ES e also can appear self.... but atleast I think I am getting closer to figuring it out. One key that these 2 aren't "normal" opals is very little ear lacing.



The lack of a lighter inner ear on one of them was one thing that stood out to me, too. Even "normal opals" would have that. Colors look a little different on a Rex coat- the banding is harder to see because the bands are so short. It could be hard to tell the difference between the ticking on a steel and the banding on an opal. One has light eye rings and the nose lacing and it looks like the inside of the ear is light colored; that one looks more like an opal to me.



DutchBunny03 said:


> Dutch are a pain in the neck to get a well-marked one, so* a litter that is all well-marked is very rare.*



 You have just won the "understatement of the year award." I have bred two marked breeds, Dutch and Harlequin, and I think your odds of winning the lottery are better. If you are lucky, you will get a couple of good rabbits in a litter; there are so many faults and DQ's it's often not a case of "which one is best," its more like "which one is least bad." Did you know that at one time, Dutch came in harlequin color? They wanted a good harlie pattern as well as the Dutch markings. I'm not surprised that color is no longer shown - I think anybody who tried it wound up in the funny farm!


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 20, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> The lack of a lighter inner ear on one of them was one thing that stood out to me, too. Even "normal opals" would have that. Colors look a little different on a Rex coat- the banding is harder to see because the bands are so short. It could be hard to tell the difference between the ticking on a steel and the banding on an opal. One has light eye rings and the nose lacing and it looks like the inside of the ear is light colored; that one looks more like an opal to me.
> 
> If I breed the mother to an agouti should that tell me if she is incomplete or super steel?
> 
> ...


Still see some of the Harli dutch on some fb groups.


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 20, 2016)

@Bunnylady if I breed this doe to an agouti would that help tell me if she is an incomplete or a super steel?


----------



## promiseacres (Oct 20, 2016)

Perso


DutchBunny03 said:


> @promiseacres , the litter would not necissarily have to be culled. Most rabbit breeds and varieties came from mutations in the rabbit's genes. The Rex breed came from a mutation in the fur. So did the Havana, Satin, and Tan. Lops are a mutation from the normal pricked-up ears. If it is a mutation, and not just an unmolted coat(which it very well may be), the rabbits could be used to develop a new coat variety in Lops. But, not many people have the time or money to try to create a new breed/variety. I toyed with the idea of a Satinized Dutch, but my bank account said no. Show rabbits must be culled judiciously. I dont kill the kits, like some very serious show breeders, but i sell them as pets. Dutch are a pain in the neck to get a well-marked one, so a litter that is all well-marked is very rare.


Personally would cull the line if I couldnt come up with a plausible explanation. I do not have time, or $ to create at this time. Plus it would be shady if I didn't disclose a genetic issue even if it's only color. 
Dutch were my 4H project, got best 4 class with them 1 year. Yes a challenge but not impossible.


----------



## Bunnylady (Oct 20, 2016)

promiseacres said:


> @Bunnylady if I breed this doe to an agouti would that help tell me if she is an incomplete or a super steel?




Theoretically, breeding her to a straightforward agouti like a chestnut or opal could get you at least one baby that was clearly a steel and answer your question as to whether she's steel or not. If she was a super steel, she couldn't have, say, an opal, because every baby would have to get steel from her. But there are no guarantees with genetics; I like to joke that whatever it is you are hoping to get in the way of color is going to be the last thing you see. I think I have mentioned this one - I had a rabbit that wound up with an ongoing role in the series "One Tree Hill." She was a broken tort Holland Lop, which is an extremely common color; I'd be willing to bet that 80% of the Hollands you see at a show are either tort or broken tort. Knowing how easily rabbits can die on you, I really wanted to have an "understudy" on hand in case the unfortunate happened, but of all the rabbits born in my rabbitry during that time, not one was a broken tort! The genetics were all there, but that combination just never came up.


----------

