# Need suggestions for problem with LGD



## GLENMAR (Dec 10, 2012)

My girl Nala:








She is 14 mos old. She has tried to play with the goats before. I will yell NO and usually she will settle down. She is very stubborn. I am not out there all the time to watch her etc... I know she is getting bored. I have given her chew bones out there also. 

Here's the latest problem: She got after one of my does and chewed on her leg to the point it was slobbery wet. The doe jumped up on a spool to get away from the dog. She would not come down to eat, and was holding the leg up.  She was fine the next day. The dog has not been put back in with the girls.

OK I am open to ideas.


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## CocoNUT (Dec 11, 2012)

Does Nala have a buddy? Just a thought - cause everyone recommends getting more than one - for backup and a playmate. 
I'm working on getting Gus a buddy to keep her busy...


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2012)

up to this point, has Nala always been submissive to the goats? 
Where was she growing up? separated or always with them? As she was growing up did the goats ever butt her and assert dominance over her? (That is a good thing BTW) If they did butt her did you ever stop them (the goats) or interfere with them?
What size/kind of goats is she in with? Also the goat she grabbed the leg of, is she "new" or has Nala always been with her?


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## Shelly May (Dec 11, 2012)

I have heard this more then once, buy two they are better in pairs, If she is not fixed I would get a breeding age
male, bred her and sell the puppies. this will help settle her down and the money from the puppies will help cover
the cost of the male and his needs. If she is fixed by a neutered male around the same age she is and she should
do the same, Settle down that is, the male will have all her attention then. Not the goats. Make sure the male has 
been with goats already so no problems with him.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2012)

The problem with just adding another dog for the possible boredom is the other dog can and often will pick up the undesirable traits the first dog is displaying. I am in great support of two dog teams, however if the first dog, Nala, is NOT submitting to the goats this has to be corrected. The order for an LGD is to never be "over" or alpha to the livestock. This is a big mistake new or inexperienced LGD owners make with their dogs. Breeding her will not make Nala stop chasing or grabbing a goat. It is always great to have an experienced LGD teach a younger LGD all these things, however that is just not always an option for most people.
 Any livestock that fears it's LGD is going to be stressed and it will increase discontent in the herd/flock, stressing animals sometimes putting themselves in danger because of it. 
LGD's are there to bring comfort and protection, if they are causing stress they are NOT doing their job. Correct this behavior immediately by "ramming" the LGD as a goat would, when she is down hold her and scold harshly...she needs to understand this is not a play-thing you are doing with her. At 14 months this is a rather unusual behavior to just suddenly start. If "playing " with the goats was tolerated by you as she grew up and was not corrected this could take a bit of time, as it is very difficult to "undo" problem behaviors in LGD's.


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## Shelly May (Dec 11, 2012)

get her a buddy around the same age who has been around and lived with livestock, keep them 
together for a few days, then return them back with the goats, and you will see a big difference.
I have 5 males (LGD) and they jump on each other and bite on each other (no blood drawn) all the
time. just playing and burning off energy. they will also play tug a war with objects, just trying to do
anything to get the other dogs attention to join in. THERE FORE NOT PLAYING WITH LIVESTOCK


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## Roll farms (Dec 11, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> The problem with just adding another dog for the possible boredom is the other dog can and often will pick up the undesirable traits the first dog is displaying. I am in great support of two dog teams, however if the first dog, Nala, is NOT submitting to the goats this has to be corrected. The order for an LGD is to never be "over" or alpha to the livestock. This is a big mistake new or inexperienced LGD owners make with their dogs. Breeding her will not make Nala stop chasing or grabbing a goat. It is always great to have an experienced LGD teach a younger LGD all these things, however that is just not always an option for most people.
> Any livestock that fears it's LGD is going to be stressed and it will increase discontent in the herd/flock, stressing animals sometimes putting themselves in danger because of it.
> LGD's are there to bring comfort and protection, if they are causing stress they are NOT doing their job. Correct this behavior immediately by "ramming" the LGD as a goat would, when she is down hold her and scold harshly...she needs to understand this is not a play-thing you are doing with her. At 14 months this is a rather unusual behavior to just suddenly start. If "playing " with the goats was tolerated by you as she grew up and was not corrected this could take a bit of time, as it is very difficult to "undo" problem behaviors in LGD's.


I agree wholeheartedly.

People who don't have experience w/ LGD shouldn't breed them...at this point she's not proven she's a "good" one, you want dogs who've proven to be good LGD's making puppies.  (And frankly not just anyone 'should' breed dogs to begin with, esp. if you're not sure you can find GOOD working homes for 10-12 huge animals.)

We start our pups out w/ Penny, a dehorned doe who takes no poop from nobody...she teaches the pups what is and is not acceptable, basically 'trains' them for us....Gus, our 3 yr old Pyr x Anatolian, still sits politely when she approaches him.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 11, 2012)

I agree with Southern too. Completely.



> People who don't have experience w/ LGD shouldn't breed them...at this point she's not proven she's a "good" one, you want dogs who've proven to be good LGD's making puppies.  (And frankly not just anyone 'should' breed dogs to begin with, esp. if you're not sure you can find GOOD working homes for 10-12 huge animals.)


I agree completely again. Too many people breed just because they have the dogs (and they think they know everything) when they should not be breeding. And half the time it's not the dogs but the owners that are the reason they shouldn't be breeding.


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## Shelly May (Dec 11, 2012)

people always forget about the original post, IT SAID SHE WAS TRYING TO PLAY WITH GOATS, there fore she needs a play 
mate, its not that she is a bad guard dog, and this is why so many end up on adoption list or kill list, because people don't
understand even dogs need a companion. They don't have to bred them, the option to buy a fixed male is there also, The 
original post never mentioned all the good she has done, keeping preditors away. who knows she may have 10 coyotes killed
under her belt. Beating the dog is what I would concider not a option. Buying another guard dog is a good idea to me, if that
doesn't work!! And the new dog doesn't play with the goats, then they have the option of keeping it and making a pet out of 
the other guard dog.


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## Pearce Pastures (Dec 11, 2012)

Shelly May said:
			
		

> people always forget about the original post


Offering alternative advice and polite perspective on the advice given by others posters does not mean that "people" are not addressing the post.


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## Pearce Pastures (Dec 11, 2012)

> Where was she growing up? separated or always with them? As she was growing up did the goats ever butt her and assert dominance over her? (That is a good thing BTW) If they did butt her did you ever stop them (the goats) or interfere with them?
> What size/kind of goats is she in with? Also the goat she grabbed the leg of, is she "new" or has Nala always been with her?


As one who is about to get an LGD, I am curious about the answers to these questions too.  If a dog is raised with its charges, does that make a difference in whether or not the play with them?  I would imagine it does but hope this conversation continues so we us newbies and those with experience can learn about this issue


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## GLENMAR (Dec 11, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> The problem with just adding another dog for the possible boredom is the other dog can and often will pick up the undesirable traits the first dog is displaying. I am in great support of two dog teams, however if the first dog, Nala, is NOT submitting to the goats this has to be corrected. The order for an LGD is to never be "over" or alpha to the livestock. This is a big mistake new or inexperienced LGD owners make with their dogs. Breeding her will not make Nala stop chasing or grabbing a goat. It is always great to have an experienced LGD teach a younger LGD all these things, however that is just not always an option for most people.
> Any livestock that fears it's LGD is going to be stressed and it will increase discontent in the herd/flock, stressing animals sometimes putting themselves in danger because of it.
> LGD's are there to bring comfort and protection, if they are causing stress they are NOT doing their job. Correct this behavior immediately by "ramming" the LGD as a goat would, when she is down hold her and scold harshly...she needs to understand this is not a play-thing you are doing with her. At 14 months this is a rather unusual behavior to just suddenly start. If "playing " with the goats was tolerated by you as she grew up and was not corrected this could take a bit of time, as it is very difficult to "undo" problem behaviors in LGD's.


This is what I was thinking too. She is with 3 full grown Nubian does. She has been with them full time since she was big enough not to squeeze through the fence.
I put her alone at night, and out with them during the day. When she was a young pup, my herd queen did try to roll her a few times. A friend of mine stepped in to "protect" the puppy. I told her at the time that I thought that was a mistake. She is not yet spayed. It is hard to correct her because she knows that you are coming for her and she runs from you.    Maybe I should get a male that is older with lots of experience. That way she could have a buddy and maybe he would not tolerate her trying to play with the goats??
What do you all think of that. I don't want to compound the problem with more dogs that may develop a pack mentality against the herd.

I bought her from a goat/sheep farm where she was born in the barn. I got her at 6 weeks old. I was told to put her with the goats and not play with her. I played with her anyway. I also brought her in the house some. She also knows how to walk on a lead and sit. I am willing to teach other basic obedience if needed. The running from me when she knows she is in trouble, or being hard to catch, seems like a pyr trait.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2012)

*No one talked about beating a dog!* EVER!  If you were referring to the ramming then you clearly have no clue what I'm talking about. And trying to link or equate the two is absolutely ridiculous. Hitting/beating any animal is stupid and counterproductive.

As one who proffessionally worked with animal behavior issues I understand the "laymans mentality". That is why in the end, I had a business.  

The original post was not forgotten... playing with goats.... hmmm, *grabbing the leg of a goat and chewing on it*. This is actually HOW a LGD goes after it's prey. Often grabbing the back leg, pulling the animal down. If there is a team then one generally goes for the hind leg, while the other comes up over the back to crush the spine. That is not playing this is never acceptable with the livestock.

Honestly 2 are better than one, I agree. However I have seen over the years people try to fix a problem by doing exactly what YOU are suggesting, only to end up having now..twice the trouble!

Dogs ARE pack animals, therefore having 2 is always ideal.  The behavior that NALA is displaying is unbecoming of an LGD. I am sure the op can work with Nala in a good positive way. There was a specific order to the questions I asked, seeing how the op has not been able to respond yet it is very difficult to really assess the situation. 

The fact that you believe your dogs should be alpha to the livestock gives me pause to taking you seriously. Your recommendations are for "pet dogs" not LGD's.


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## GLENMAR (Dec 11, 2012)

She does run the fence line and bark at possible threats. I have 25 acres behind my goat field. Sometimes I can hear hunting dogs back there. She lets them know she is there.
She is good in the house. She is bad about being caught outside if out of her field. She does not escape the goat field due to the electric fence. I am nervous about returning her unattended to the goat field, but I don't have another yard for her, so she has been staying in a 12x12 horse stall with daily visits to the house for a few hours. Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

I used to show and breed dogs, so I have lots of "dog" experience, but no LGD experience.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2012)

GLENMAR said:
			
		

> Southern by choice said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was an important phase for the pup, although there are times you do need to interfere with a goat "learnin' the pup" so to speak.


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## GLENMAR (Dec 11, 2012)

Shelly May said:
			
		

> get her a buddy around the same age who has been around and lived with livestock, keep them
> together for a few days, then return them back with the goats, and you will see a big difference.
> I have 5 males (LGD) and they jump on each other and bite on each other (no blood drawn) all the
> time. just playing and burning off energy. they will also play tug a war with objects, just trying to do
> anything to get the other dogs attention to join in. THERE FORE NOT PLAYING WITH LIVESTOCK


Maybe I can call the breeder and "borrow" a dog to see how it goes.


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## Shelly May (Dec 12, 2012)

Talk with your breeder and ask them advise, If they have livestock with their dogs they will know 
or have good ideas for you on what to do. Please come back in the future and let us know how it
all worked out. Good Luck with your Girl and have a happy holiday


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## whr (Jan 1, 2013)

I agree with her having a playmate to get rid of excess energy.   From my research of talking to many owners, this is what they recommended to me also.  Good luck.


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## treeclimber233 (Jan 4, 2013)

When my LGD started "mouthing" the babies (3-4 months old) on their shoulders/neck area I just applied some hot sauce to the area.  be very careful to just get it on the tips of the hair.  He stopped real quick.


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## GLENMAR (Jan 25, 2013)

Update. Here's what I did. So far it is working out great. She has been a very good girl lately. 

I bought a shock collar. When she started chasing the goats, she got a "correction" from the collar. She immediately stopped. I was able to use just the tone sometimes to distract her. I did not let her know where it was coming from. I still did not trust her when I could not watch her. She started chasing and grabbing at them again a few days later. The girls were getting closer to kidding, so I decided to put her in with my buck. He would rear up at her and come down a few times. I have her a shock, so she would think that he did it. He did not run from her. I actually think they bonded some. I tried her in with the girls and she was better. The other day she started chasing one again. The stupid collar stopped working.    I paid almost $300 for that thing. I took it back. I put her back in with the buck. So far NO PROBLEMS. I think it is because he does not run from her when she gets wild. The other day, I saw him chasing her all over the place. She was submitting to him.   I know I still have more work to do on her. She is 15 mos old. I am planning on breeding her. I will keep a pup or two for dog company for her. I want to get her doing her job well first. 

Thanks to Southern for all your advise. I am sure I am on the way to having a GOOD dog.


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## GLENMAR (Jan 25, 2013)

Here she is a few weeks before the training started.


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