# Need Advise On Types Of Hay



## stano40 (Jan 30, 2011)

Recently I bought 2 round bales of hay which was supposed to be good for cattle.  It was a good deal but I should have paid attention to "What was a Good Deal" vs buying horse hay.

This time of year (Winter) is an  expensive time to buy last years hay and I had to travel an hour and half up northern Maine for this great deal.

Whenj I got home with the hay my son said it smelled funny.  When we cut open the wrapped bales the odor was over powering and I noticed white patch's on the hay.  The bales were frozen almost solid.  So much for a good deal and a waste of money.

I have 10 goats and would like to know how everyone goes about deciding what type of hay is good for their goats.

Another thing I would like to learn is what types of hay is on the market today in square or round bales.   What is the difference in hay.  I understand what mulch hay is and it's use's, I got 2 huge round bales sitting in my driveway now stinking up the place.

bob


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## helmstead (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry!  I never buy cow quality hay - I wouldn't even feed that stuff to a poor, innocent cow!  

Lucky me, my brother in law produces our hay for us now, but I can tell you in GA we paid through the NOSE for good hay.  Rolls ran anywhere from $60 to $100 and were only about 500 lbs.  Squares of grass (orchard fescue) were around $6 for a 40 lb.  And alfalfa, in GA...UNGODLY expensive.  Usually $15 to $25 for straight alfalfa squares, never more than 50 lbs.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 30, 2011)

You will want to stick with horse quality hay. I buy orchard grass hay for my alpacas. I did get grass/alfalfa mix for the goats. I buy squares because I have to store hay in my hayloft. I paid $4.50 per bale. I don't have anywhere to store round bales. 

If you can, buy for the year. My hay guy bales his second cut hay usually in August but this year was done in July. I ordered 600 bales and am good to go for the year. Too hard to find good hay around me in the winter.


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## elevan (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

I bought my first round bale recently cause it was a good deal.  The hay was good, but my plan to just pull off what I needed turned out to be a real pain.  So if it's to fill hay rack, I recommend square bales.

I am lucky enough to have 2 suppliers that I trust - 1 is right across the road from me, but if they are out or low on stock then we have another that delivers to us.

Depending on which supplier, our hay is either alfalfa/ orchard grass mix or alfalfa / clover / orchard grass mix.

When getting hay you should always smell it...if you've got a cold and can't smell bring someone with you.  If it smells musty, moldy or bad don't buy it.

Also instead of buying because they label it horse hay, cow hay, goat hay - ask them what it consists of instead, they should know - if they don't then don't buy it.

When you find a good supplier build a relationship with them.

Good luck.


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## stano40 (Jan 30, 2011)

It was my fault not to check out the hay.  It was so cold out when I picked them up, plus when he pulled the bales out of the snow, it was then bells should have rung out ..... (DON'T BUY THIS HAY), but I trusted the person I was buying the hay from to have good hay.  The bales were costing me $30.00 each bale.

From what I learned from going there is not to buy hay that is stored outside.  Wrapped hay seems to hold more moisture, especially if it's baled wet.

I will have to start asking what type of hay from suppliers.  

Is there grades of hay out there for different types of livestock?

bob


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## elevan (Jan 30, 2011)

I try to skip first cuttings and go for the later cuttings.

Content is what I look for - I like alfalfa / orchard grass (but the clover mix is good too).

I also look for baled dry and stored dry hay.  It should also be green and smell sweet (imo)  As it fades in color to brown it loses nutrients.

My supplier across the road did give me 25 bales one time free that had been baled dry and then got rained on.  They were left to bake in the hot summer sun for a week after that.  They still smelled sweet so I took them, intending them for bedding only as long as I didn't see mold.  They never molded, but I used them only for bedding anyway.  Goats ate about half of what I put down.


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## patandchickens (Jan 30, 2011)

Sorry you had this experience, although I think everyone runs into it at some time or another. Pile the hay outdoors somewhere for a year or two and it will make good garden mulch and then (when it composts down more) good garden soil amendment). Or you can use it for  mulch right away but it is likely to seed a lot of pasture weeds and grasses into your garden.

Just checking, but you're sure this was a mold problem, rather than a fully-wrapped ensiled bale (haylage)? (Which DOES have an overpowering weird odor, not moldy though, and frozen bits in it would look white). If it was not fully-wrapped ensiled hay then definitely it does sound 'bad'.

I am leery of buying big bales (round or big square) from suppliers I haven't dealt with before or gotten consistent good references from other people, because it is just too darn hard to know what's on the inside of those big bales. Even if they are stored indoors they can be nasty and moldy inside and seem fine outside.

"Good for cattle" is often a danger sign, I know_ cattle _people who won't buy hay advertised as cow hay 

So if you must buy from an unknown supplier, small squares are a lot better idea IMO even though obviously they cost more per weight of hay.  Not only can you break a random one open (paying for it of course) to see what's inside, but you can also tell from the feel of them as you load 'em up whether there are some that are ominously heavy. The heavy ones are very often the ones that have moisture/mold issues inside, either from being baled that way or acquired in storage. 

Pat


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## stano40 (Jan 30, 2011)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> Sorry you had this experience, although I think everyone runs into it at some time or another. Pile the hay outdoors somewhere for a year or two and it will make good garden mulch and then (when it composts down more) good garden soil amendment). Or you can use it for  mulch right away but it is likely to seed a lot of pasture weeds and grasses into your garden.
> 
> Just checking, but you're sure this was a mold problem, rather than a fully-wrapped ensiled bale (haylage)? (Which DOES have an overpowering weird odor, not moldy though, and frozen bits in it would look white). If it was not fully-wrapped ensiled hay then definitely it does sound 'bad'.
> 
> ...


So, by what you've written I could have bought a silage type hay.  But what would the frozen white spots be?  

I looked up on Wikipedia about silage and this is what I found.

_Silage is fermented, high-moisture fodder that can be fed to ruminants (cud-chewing animals like cattle and sheep)[1] or used as a biofuel feedstock for anaerobic digesters. It is fermented and stored in a process called ensiling or silaging, and is usually made from grass crops, including corn (maize) or sorghum or other cereals, using the entire green plant (not just the grain). Silage can be made from many field crops, and special terms may be used depending on type (oatlage for oats, haylage for alfalfa  but see below for different UK use of the term haylage).

Silage is made either by placing cut green vegetation in a silo, or by piling it in a large heap covered with plastic sheet, or by wrapping large bales in plastic film._

I'll tell you one of my neighbors is not fond of the odor and I can't blame her.

From readng how silage is produced I don't think this farm did just that to produce silage.

I just don't have a use for it on my 1 acre backyard farm.  I have enough hay waste from the goats and chickens to rototill into the ground.

My goats do pick at it on their way to the pen in the morning I hope that won't hurt them.

bob


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Jan 30, 2011)

I can get square bales across the street for $5 a bale, and they're leafy and green, however sometimes it has prickers. I'm pretty sure it's mixed grass/ weeds  BUT..... The chickens like it!


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## julieq (Jan 30, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> And alfalfa, in GA...UNGODLY expensive.  Usually $15 to $25 for straight alfalfa squares, never more than 50 lbs.


When we lived in Alabama we had trouble even finding alfalfa hay and usually had to have it shipped in.  Apparently it doesn't grow well in the south as it's just too wet.  Here in Idaho in the high desert they grow it locally for the cow dairies.  We've paid anywhere 4.50 to 11.00 per small bale of alfalfa, depending on the weight, for the past two years.


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## patandchickens (Jan 30, 2011)

stano40 said:
			
		

> So, by what you've written I could have bought a silage type hay.  But what would the frozen white spots be?


Frozen moisture, frost, ice. Ensiled hay is a lot wetter inside than normal hay.

You should be able to easily resolve whether it's frozen dampness, or mold, by bringing some into the house to warm up.



> I looked up on Wikipedia about silage and this is what I found.


No, regular silage is from chopped stuff and usually done in a silo. Ensiled hay is hay that is put up *as hay* (at the correct %moisture) but the bale is wrapped airtight and it then ferments inside the wrapping. It is fed to cows (who I gather do well on it) and occasionally to horses (but with horses, b/c they are not ruminants, there is a botulism risk)

If the plastic wrapping on the bale was airtight (no gaps) it may well be ensiled hay. Take some with the white parts indoors and see if they disappear on melting, or turn out to be genuine mold.

If the bale was only wrapped on the outside faces, with parts of the ends of the bales not wrapped, it is definitely not ensiled and it does not really matter what the white stuff is b/c if there is white stuff inthe bale you do not want to be feeding it IMO (even if it's just moisture, if there is that MUCH moisture it is almost certain you've got mold)

Pat


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## stano40 (Jan 30, 2011)

With all the great answer's which got me looking in the right direction and Pat's post I'm understanding what I bought.

Both round bales where covered which would start to produce silage.  That's the odor.  Bales are still pretty frozen the further you get in.

I'll have to post on Craigslist to anyone looking for this type of hay.
_
Free - 2 round bales of silage hay.  Cash and Carry as I do not have a tractor to load them onto your truck._

Thanks to everyone and still learning about hay.

bob

PS

Anyone who says goats are easy to care for - "Doesn't Have Any"


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## patandchickens (Jan 30, 2011)

Can you not feed haylage to goats? I would have thought that being ruminants like cows they'd be fine with it? (But I do not know.)

Pat


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## adoptedbyachicken (Jan 30, 2011)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> Can you not feed haylage to goats? I would have thought that being ruminants like cows they'd be fine with it? (But I do not know.)
> 
> Pat


That's what I was just wondering too!  You say they have been eating a bit of it, have they had any issues?  That type of hay is great for cattle, compared to the same grass put up dry and open it is much higher nutrition.  Again _properly done_ the fermenting is beneficial.  If I were you I'd look into it more before I dumped them off.  

There must be some information on the feeding of this to goats, and if you can get someone local to look at it and tell you if it appears to have been put up right.  Just some thoughts.

Pictures of the bales would help too, with the wrapper, I can compare it to what we are used to here.  But still, I only know of feeding it to cattle too, hope someone with goats here has more information for you.


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## stano40 (Jan 31, 2011)

That hay is right outside their door, so when we let them out for the day they go right for it until they see the good horse hay and switch to that.  They've only nibbled at the hay and I too am wondering how good it is for them without harming them.

bob


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 31, 2011)

Here is some information I found about silage.  I don't have any experience with silage, but remember hearing a conversation about a couple goats getting sick and aborting. 

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/listeriosis_gwmf.shtml

Listeriosis - caused by the bacteria Listeria monocytogenes, found in soil, water, plant litter, silage and goat's digestive tract. Brought on by feeding silage, sudden changes in kind of feed, parasitism, dramatic weather changes and advanced stages of pregnancy. 

Symptoms - Depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck, facial paralysis on one side, slack jaw, and drooling, abortions. 

Treatment - Administration of Procaine penicillin every six hours for three to five days, then daily for an additional seven days.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 31, 2011)

Here is a link to a thread about haylage,  

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2924


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 31, 2011)

I get 1st and 2nd cut horse hay for my goats.  I get the 1st cut for the winter time cuz its stemier and its good in cold weather so I mix the 1st and 2nd in the winter.  

Its sounds like you did not buy silage..its sounds like you bought improperly stored hay in a round bale to me.   If it got wet and stinks, it sounds like its full of mold..and I highly recomend NOT feeding it to your goats.  Its not worth the risk. You should NEVER feed your goats moldy hay, wet hay or wet grain.  They can die from it very quickly!!  They get very sick fast!!  Not good.   

Moreover storeing wet hay in a barn will start a fire fast!!!  It ferments and combust and will burn fast.  I would'nt even give that away.  IMO

I would call your local highway dept...or landscapers that may want that for drainage issues this spring.  Thats what Id do.  I would be afraid of someone taking it and feed their animals with it or burned thier barn down! 
Eeeeekkss!!  

Im sorry you took that hit with the hay.  Better luck next time.  I buy enough for the winter in the Aug/Sept and Im all set till April/May...works for us.  We store it dry all winter and works well!  And my goaties are happy!!

IMO take the loss..its not worth the guess...Good Luck!

I wanna add that once hay is wet and moldy...it is bad..and cannot and should not be used as feed.  There is no resolving that issue.  If you bring it in a dry area it is impossible to dry that out effectively...it will hold moisture ferment and be a serious fire hazard.   Again, just take the loss...


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 31, 2011)

stano40 said:
			
		

> That hay is right outside their door, so when we let them out for the day they go right for it until they see the good horse hay and switch to that.  They've only nibbled at the hay and I too am wondering how good it is for them without harming them.
> 
> bob


IMO...Dont feed it to them...get it out of path and dont let them eat it.

Its is horrible for them and can be extremley dangerous.   Read up on moldy hay!! Please...


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## julieq (Jan 31, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> stano40 said:
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Moldy hay around here gets used as compost in the garden!


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## stano40 (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks to all those great links on silage and hayage.  I've learned more about hay with those links and wikipedia.

Emmett's Dairy (Becky), I agree now on the poor quality of hay I bought.  I have no intention of feeding this hay to my goats.  We spent today digging out some pallets from the snow and lined them up in front of the bad hay so the goats can't get at it.

Putting that hay up on Craiglist as Mulch hay if anybody wants it.

Does anyone think giving my goats Probios treatment would help get their gut flora in shape from any effects of picking at that bad hay.

They have been getting good horse hay and their grain at night.  I'll keep an eye on them for any problems in the near future.

bob


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## julieq (Jan 31, 2011)

We feed vitamin/mineral supplements with probiotics to our goats and horses and really feel it helps to keep our livestock healthy.  (Love probiotics for us two legged animal care givers also!)


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 31, 2011)

Probios would not hurt.  But moreover what I would do is give them all a shot of Vitamin B complex.   Cuz what happens with moldy feed is it inhibits thiamine.  B1. They need that.  Important.

Watch for funny behavoir..not eating properly, staggering, staring...but I would give them all a shot tommorrow for sure.  Its avail at most feed stores and I know TSC has it for sure.  And its cheap for alot...so I would get it before this storm hits us...I heard 2 feet of snow!  So I dont think your gonna wanna run out in it for an emergency tues or wed.

Good luck and hope all fairs well in the storm!


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## julieq (Jan 31, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Probios would not hurt.  But moreover what I would do is give them all a shot of Vitamin B complex.   Cuz what happens with moldy feed is it inhibits thiamine.  B1. They need that.  Important.
> 
> Watch for funny behavoir..not eating properly, staggering, staring...but I would give them all a shot tommorrow for sure.  Its avail at most feed stores and I know TSC has it for sure.  And its cheap for alot...so I would get it before this storm hits us...I heard 2 feet of snow!  So I dont think your gonna wanna run out in it for an emergency tues or wed.
> 
> Good luck and hope all fairs well in the storm!


Great advice.  We keep B injectibles on hand, but we give them orally.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 31, 2011)

Silage and haylage (which is baled at a high moisture content, not dry like dry hay) can be fed safely to animals if the person feeding does it properly and knows what to look for.  It needs to be fed quickly, and not exposed to air for longer than a few days.  If you're going to feed a bale of haylage to goats, it needs to be eaten in just a couple days.  When feeding silage, the area exposed to air needs to be thrown away (if it's been exposed to air longer than a day or so) and only the fresh stuff should be fed.  Once it contacts air, then aerobic bacteria take over and start causing mold which can cause listeriosis.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 31, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Silage and haylage (which is baled at a high moisture content, not dry like dry hay) can be fed safely to animals if the person feeding does it properly and knows what to look for.  It needs to be fed quickly, and not exposed to air for longer than a few days.  If you're going to feed a bale of haylage to goats, it needs to be eaten in just a couple days.  When feeding silage, the area exposed to air needs to be thrown away (if it's been exposed to air longer than a day or so) and only the fresh stuff should be fed.  Once it contacts air, then aerobic bacteria take over and start causing mold which can cause listeriosis.


Agreed but I dont think he bought silage...


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 1, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
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Haylage is essentially the same thing as silage, but made with hay instead of corn.  Same concept, fermented the same way, etc.


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## stano40 (Feb 1, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
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What I bought was supposed to be wrapped bales of hay suitable for ruminants.  

I am assuming that the way it was wrapped, most likely still somewhat wet, and stored outside in the snow it began to ferment and freeze.

So, what I bought at the time I picked them up was fermented hay suitable only for cattle.

bob


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## patandchickens (Feb 1, 2011)

> I am assuming that the way it was wrapped, most likely still somewhat wet, and stored outside in the snow it began to ferment and freeze.


Yes, haylage is SUPPOSED to be fermenting and wet (and can freeze to produce icy areas).

If goats shouldn't get haylage, then don't feed it to them; but it is not clear to me this has anything at all do do with 'bad hay' 'moldy hay' as a lot of posters are still saying.

Pat


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## stano40 (Feb 1, 2011)

It goes back to my original post of buying 2 round bales of hay and opening them up to a strange odor, finding the bales frozen and seeing frozen white patch's on the hay which I thought was moldy hay.

I don't know if the hay was wrapped to produce haylage.  All I was told from the farm that I bought the bales from was the hay was not horse quality and was good for ruminants.

If I knew about the type of hay I was really buying I would not have bought those bales.

Reading all these posts here has increased my knowledge of hay and gave me the type of questions I should be asking about the hay I'm buying.

A question for Emmetts Dairy - Do you produce goats milk?

bob


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 1, 2011)

I do...I currently wont have anyone lactating til Aprl...I like to schdl my breeding so I am not out in FEB delivery babies...I dont mind April/May births...much warmer then...and they have the whole spring/summer/fall to grow and get hardy for the next winter.

Are you milking????


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## stano40 (Feb 1, 2011)

I only have 1 adult saanen cross doe which we were hoping to have bred this past Dec. but we couldn't find another saanen or boer to breed her.

To make matters worse she was bred for the first time last year and she kept letting her 8 month old continue to nurse from time to time.

Now that she's finally drying out we'll have to wait until next year when we can breed her and possibly 3 to 6 other does that will be ready for the first time.

I have 3 more saanen cross boer does and 3 alpine cross nubian does to breed if I find the right male for them.

So no milk darn it.


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