# My whether has started bullying me-have to get rid of him



## chicks & ducks (Jan 12, 2012)

Hi folks
I'm here because I'm at my wits end. 1 of my 2 whether goats has turned pretty mean! He's so aggressive that it's to the point where I had to squirt him with water yesterday just to be able to walk from the house to my truck and back. Otherwise  he tries to ram and gorge and jump on  me.  He can be very sweet and used to be SUCH a cuddler but it's getting dangerous now and he hurt me pretty bad last night. Bad enough that I'm considering selling him off. 
His brother(who is the more dominant between the two) doesn't behave like this unless he sees it happening already-then he just joins in. We're going to try and keep that one(the nicer one)  as company for our alpaca but I think Benny-the aggressive one, has to go. 

I've obviously gone wrong somewhere.  We tried to discourage jumping up but that hasn't seemed to sunk in. My son, who is 10, is scared to death of the goats. To be fair they weigh more than him and they are not dehorned.  He would run away from them-which I think they interpreted to be playing. Then they'd jump up so he'd grab them the only way he could-by the horns. I told him not to do it but he would panic and now that I've been in the same situation myself I can understand it.  Getting hooked hurts! 

I guess what I'm saying is-does anyone have any advice as to what I can do differently this time.  Here's what I'm thinking

1. Smaller goats! We just got 2 regular male goats from a milking farm for $10 each to start out with-I don't like to invest a lot of money in an animal until I'm sure I can take care of it health wise. Now I'm more confident with vaccines/copper and all that I'm happier to invest in something smaller/more expensive

2. although I HATE to do it... we will dehorn.  It sounds so cruel but I think maybe there are just some instincts that I can't conquer with them.  

3.-what else? I had these guys leash trained and bottle fed them from babies and everything. It makes me so sad that it's got to this point-I really was trying to do everything 'right'(if there is such a thing).

Any suggestions? I can even take some constructive criticism -emphasis on CONSTRUCTIVE. I want to learn. What about breeds? are there some I should stay away from all together? Dh is asking about a fainting goat now but they still look pretty big to me-I was thinking DS might not be so afraid if, say, the goat was smaller than him? He's only a little guy himself. 

Sorry my thoughts are a bit scattered, it's shaken me up a bit... Thanks!


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## Beekissed (Jan 12, 2012)

> 3.-what else? I had these guys leash trained and bottle fed them from babies and everything. It makes me so sad that it's got to this point-I really was trying to do everything 'right'(if there is such a thing).


I've read repeatedly that bottle/hand feeding male goats, sheep, cattle, roosters, etc. is a recipe for disaster, even if they are wethered/castrated at a young age.    They get confused about herd structure and their place in it and your place in it.  

If you simply must bottle feed male offspring or orphans, I'd set up a bucket nipple feeding for those animals.  I'd also set up the feeding where they can't see you doing it and then let them into that area once you have the feed in place.  I wouldn't pet or fondle them during the feeding process or near the time they've been fed.  I'd reserve socialization to humans in the form of halter training, handling, etc. for times not associated with feeding/nurturing.  

In the end, any animal that still gets rowdy after using this method, I'd cull.  Wethers have no use except companionship for other animals and for eating...if he can't be one, I'd make him the other.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 12, 2012)

They're just being brats.  I have never had an aggressive wether, even when he's been bottle fed (I've had several wether goats and sheep).  Wethers normally make the sweetest pets.  I'm guessing these two just got out of control for whatever reason.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Jan 12, 2012)

I have two whethers and they get along really well.  Now mine live with 2 draft horses.  So there is never a question as to who is in charge in the field.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jan 12, 2012)

I would be tempted, if they aren't too huge to do it, to try the sitting on them thing.   When he goes to charge you, grab his horns and take him to the GROUND.  Whole body down and straddle him and sit in him until he no longer struggles to get up.  Wear yucky clothes as you will get covered in goat while doing this.  It is the one benefit to having horns as I once had to do this to a buck by only his ears.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 12, 2012)

We purchased a bottle raised buckling to use as a herd sire, the owner left the buckling follow him around and he played head pushing games with him. It wasn't very nice having to retrain him to stay down and not rush through the gates. He has gotten better. But when his potential size is going to top 200lbs something had to be done.  

you would pretty much need to carry a hot stick or a club with you when you go in there and teach him to stay back. the same for your son, it isn't easy breaking a habit like that. 

I don't think dehorning him is going to fix the problem. He will probably do it anyway, and they have pretty hard heads, so not having any horns isn't going to make it a whole lot better if he jumps on you and hits you with his head.


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## TTs Chicks (Jan 12, 2012)

I have a buck that can be a pain and when he won't back off I take him to the ground and hold him there telling him that we aren't going to play that game.  Usually he gets the idea and will quit being a butthead.


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## Mamaboid (Jan 12, 2012)

The others have covered the problem with this goat, but I would like to address the fainter goat comment you made.  I have fainters, my one buck is tiny, the other much larger.  I find the fainters to be wonderful sweet natured goats.  They come in all sizes and colors and hair lengths, and I would think they would make wonderful pets and companions for a smaller child.  My bucks both have their horns, and the one's are huge.  I have never had any problems with them using them.  The little one lowers his head when I pet him so I can reach over them as he was taught really early that "Mom" doesn't like those pointy things anywhere near her.  Here is a picture of my little guy.  He is a year old.


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## HB Sheep & Goat Farm (Jan 13, 2012)

Here's my advice. Do NOT bottle feed any male animal. They get very very aggressive when they get grown. And as far as the one you have now, invest in a cattle prod. When he acts like he's going to hit you, give him a good dose of it. If that doesn't solve the problem Id sell him.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jan 13, 2012)

Oh and if you don't want to deal with a cattle prod we use a gate hook on an elastic electric strand that we would zot one of our buck with when he got fence testy.  Sometimes he'd get very protective of just the gate and didn't want to let you in.  We rigged up an extra line and would zing him with it when he got pushy. He learned to back off the gate after about 4 days.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 13, 2012)

I just want to say it's not common for bottle fed *castrated* males to be aggressive. I don't want people to be scared off from bottle feeding pet wethers.


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## ksj0225 (Jan 13, 2012)

HB Sheep & Goat Farm said:
			
		

> Here's my advice. Do NOT bottle feed any male animal. They get very very aggressive when they get grown. And as far as the one you have now, invest in a cattle prod. When he acts like he's going to hit you, give him a good dose of it. If that doesn't solve the problem Id sell him.


I would just like to say with all due respect, that disagree will all points.  My buck was bottle fed after his mother died.  And a cattle prod is not meant for goats and will make them meaner.  There are other ways to discourage bad behaviour.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 13, 2012)

I would not sell a problem animal. Better off in the freezer. That is unfair to pawn off a problem to someone else. Especially if you don't disclose the problem.


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## Chirpy (Jan 13, 2012)

First, I've never had to retrain such an aggressive adult goat so I don't think I have much to offer.   I don't know if an e-collar would work on a goat or not.  

Second, I agree with ksalvagno - unless you tend to completely disclose all reasons for selling him it's unfair (wrong) to sell/give him to someone else.  A new owner should know exactly what his bad issues are so they can make an informed decision on taking on those problems.

Third - wethers normally make the BEST pets.   Most wethers (whether they are bottle raised or doe raised) are the sweetest, best choice for a companion animal for both people and other animals.    When any male (and females for that matter)  is bottle raised there should be some basic rules followed by the person so that the boy does not ever feel he is 'ruler' over people.  Animals HAVE to understand that they are lower on the totem pole than all humans... always.  The biggest negative with bottle raised babies is that they weren't taught to respect human space... that's just a failure on the person who raised them (and a really easy failure I might... they are SOOOOO cute and adorable you tend to let them get away with everything!!!).

Some things to remember with all goats:  
   1)  Never push against or pet them on the top of their head.   Pet them behind their ears (neck side) or under their chin or elsewhere on their body.  When they feel pressure on their heads they naturally want to push back.. that encourages butting.
   2)  Never allow goats (even cute, adorable babies) to jump up on people.  (So, I've been guilty of sidestepping this rule with my Nigerian kids... SO cute and I love to have them on my lap...   BUT, that means that I have to retrain them later and that's harder.  I learned that with my first doe - she's 80 some pounds now and loves to sit on my lap.)  I, personally, never allow a full size goat breed to jump on my legs, my lap, my back, etc. even when they are only a few days old... don't let the behavior start.   
   3)  Don't let a goat rub against your leg with it's head (horned or disbudded) - again, that's a dominant gesture.  They should always respect your space.  My goats all come up for my attention but they stand next to me... not against me and I pet and rub them all over their favorite spots.
  4) Don't let a goat 'paw' at you for attention (another mistake I made with my first girl).. it hurts when they are adults, they can dirty up your clothes real quickly and it's dangerous when they do it to a small child for attention.).
When you are training or working with any animal as a baby think about the behavior when they are an adult.  If you don't want that cute, 2 lb. kid jumping against you when he is 120 lbs.   Don't let him jump at 2 lbs.  If you don't want that baby sucking on your fingers when they are an adult and can 'crunch' then don't allow it as a baby.    Make sense?

Good luck.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 13, 2012)

First, I would NOT leave my son near him. 

2nd, if you can't figure a way to fix him, I would take him to the stockyards.  Anyone buying there is buying for meat most the time, and if they are buying for some other reason, they shouldn't be shocked to end up with a problem animal. Unless you really don't mind butchering him or eating him, or just having him put down. 

Just my opinion, You are going to get a huge range of opinions on such a topic.  

Good luck with everything.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Jan 13, 2012)

I would never use a cattle prod on a goat! However a sharp slap across their nose, spritz of water, with bucks you can even kick them a little if they're being bad. If it's really bad you can trip them/get them to the ground,  or you can carry a horse riding crop which, with a loud NO, will indicate something bad. If all else fails, you can always sell him.


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## HankTheTank (Jan 14, 2012)

I never found that bottle feeding did any harm as long as they were raised right. The farm I work at bottle raises every goat that is born (to prevent CAE) and they all turn out fine, even the boys. Chirpy has some really good advice, and depending on how bad the situation is you might be able to correct his behavior. Good Luck!


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## currycomb (Jan 14, 2012)

i think just putting them in a pen away from the house and people for a start. then you get to pick your battles with them, and your son won't be afraid to walk outside. i have been given several "mean" goats. just never stood still for them to ram me, or butt me, and if they did i had a big stick to whack across the nose. this is where you getting to pick the time and place for the encounter is crucial. arrange your pen so they can be safely fed and watered from outside their encloser.


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## melody (Jan 16, 2012)

Hey Chicks and Ducks:
I had a similar problem with a ewe this summer/fall. She suddenly got aggressive and dangerous. I am just writing to let you know that I see many of the same names posting here that helped me. We ended up separating the older lamb and she went back to her original farm, and mama ewe had to be sent back to the void.
Sometimes, just like in parenting, you may do EVERYTHING right, and your desired outcome does not manifest.
I know the feeling of hurt ...almost betrayal, you may be feeling with all the love you gave . I miss my ewe..she was a real cuddler to start too.
As I was advised...they teach each other behavior and this is not a trait you want to pass on. I already see one of my little nigerian dwarf goats doing this to the cat...and she learned it from the sheep this summer.  
I'd say give the wrestling to the ground and pinning him as your last resort, if you are up for it.
If not or if there is no improvement....I agree, he will probably need to be relocated here or..'eleswhere.'


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## melody (Jan 16, 2012)

And thank you again to all of you who helped me.


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## HB Sheep & Goat Farm (Jan 17, 2012)

For those of you who thought I meant bottle raising made them mean, I just mean it as in when they are little, they are gentle and sweet, when they get big they get rough. As far as the best bottle raised kid I would choose a doe. Now with the cattle prod being "cruel and not meant for goats" I DISAGREE. Ok maybe it might hurt, but so will a slap on the nose or a kick. And they are used on livestock which includes goats. Don't use them in excess, just a zap when he acts up. I'd much rather try to correct him with this method rather than just say heck and off to the slaughter house he goes. This isn't meant to contradict anyone, it's just my opinion.


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## redtailgal (Jan 17, 2012)

One of my wethers was bullying me for awhile.  I was contemplating freezer camp for him, until he just pushed me too far one day.  I got mad......um, VERY mad.

He ended up on the ground with me on top of him, and I pretty much beat the snot out of him. I held him down and just smacked him all over and I yelled at him.

Yup, it sounds awful. It looked worse. BUT, he is a sweetheart now.  He hasnt made an ill move towards me since. He goes where I tell him to go, and is respectful with his horns and feet.  

I did feel bad for going off on him like that, but it did save his life, lol.

This goat was dam raised, but I have raised plenty of calves on the bottle.  They do get pushier than dam raised critters, but if you will be consistant with the rules and teach them that certain behavior is unacceptable from the beginning MOST of the time there is not a problem.  The very few calves that cannot adapt and accept my rules make excellent meat.


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## peachick (Jan 19, 2012)

my background in dog training had me constantly studying animal behavior  and reading every book.
In my humble opinion, What redtailgal did was the absolute right thing to do.  And here is why....

If you watch how animals interact with each other when someone is out of line, guess what...  it aint nice or kind...  We as humans,  need to react the way another animal would in their language.....  so that they understand  humans are the alpha.

If an animal in a heard or a pack gets too far out of line,  the alpha herd/pack member  will chase it down, and pin it to the ground, and pound it,  until the animal submits.

Think of how a mama dog corrects her puppy...  she imediatly chases the puppy, pins it to the ground, mouth around its neck, and holds it there.  Then just as quickly as she reacted, she will walk away and go on with her day...  no nagging..  she made her point firmly the first time.  IF  the puppy continues the behavior  she will react with more intensity, roaring at it and shaking it, until the baby is so scared  it pees.  LOL  Pretty much  the puppy will avoid mama after that   

So  my advice with an obnoxious goat (or any animal) would be to act like an alpha dominant pack leader / herd master... growl, knock them to the ground, and scare the living pee and pooh out of it....

If you do it firm enough the first time,  you wont need to do it again.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 29, 2012)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> I would be tempted, if they aren't too huge to do it, to try the sitting on them thing.   When he goes to charge you, grab his horns and take him to the GROUND.  Whole body down and straddle him and sit in him until he no longer struggles to get up.  Wear yucky clothes as you will get covered in goat while doing this.  It is the one benefit to having horns as I once had to do this to a buck by only his ears.


That is what I was thinking, not because I have ever had to do it but our friend has a whethered Togg he had trouble with when he first got him and that is what he did.  After he pinned the big boy to the ground a few times, he took on a whole different demeanor.


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## redtailgal (Jan 29, 2012)

peachick said:
			
		

> my background in dog training had me constantly studying animal behavior  and reading every book.
> In my humble opinion, What redtailgal did was the absolute right thing to do.  And here is why....
> 
> If you watch how animals interact with each other when someone is out of line, guess what...  it aint nice or kind...  We as humans,  need to react the way another animal would in their language.....  so that they understand  humans are the alpha.
> ...


Works with teenagers too. (except I dont knock my humans kids to the ground. they are taller than me!)


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## cutechick2010 (Feb 6, 2012)

I agree with one of the PPs, you should not sell or give him away unless you tell the buyer exactly WHY you are selling him. And once that is disclosed, the only buyers you will get are meat buyers, which IMO is where he probably ought to go. I NEVER leave horns on my goats, even a sweet gentle goat can hurt you by accident with a big rack of horns. A couple down the road from me has had goats for something like 30 years and they never leave horns on their goats either. They actually did buy a huge (250 plus, easily) Boer buck with horns, and he is super gentle and still managed to knock the husband down just by turning his head a little too fast. 

 I have never had a problem with bottle feeding any goats, even the buck is still sweet. He wants to rub against you and "cuddle" especially when he is rutting, but it's all love LOL. The one wether I had that turned mean on me wasn't bottle fed.

  I understand completely what an awful idea it is not only to sell this guy for meat, and how hard it is to disbud the kids, but I will never have a horned or aggressive goat especially with small children around. They only hurt for a few minutes with the disbudding, and it saves a lifetime of possible problems. I just won't take the chance of my children getting hurt, or the goat getting caught in the fence and found by coyotes, etc.


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## chicks & ducks (Feb 18, 2012)

HI all! WOW you guys are great.

Just wanted to clarify-wasn't going to sell him as a pet, was going to sell him to be butchered. I'm not a big meat eater myself and even if I was I can't eat pets that I've raised from babies(even the chickens get buried at my house!   Don't worry-I'd never sell a bad animal(or car or house or anything else for that matter) without full disclosure. Above all else I believe in karma! 

Things have gotten better...as long as I have my squirt bottle with me! There were so many replies here I can't remember who suggested it but I do like to go with a pain free route whenever possible. (though with this stubborn fella I had my doubts ANYTHING would work. ) 

Anyway I went out to do chores(packin my spray bottle of water) and when he came runnin at me lookin to jump he got squirted. OMG you'd think I'd just shot him! He was so upset. At first he obviously got mad and went for me again, with a vengeance, but as he got closer he got squirted again. That was it! He ran away.  Now he's getting better. He doesn't charge at me like that so often and I always have my squirt bottle just in case I need to remind him.

You guys have been VERY helpful! It seems, without realizing, I was making a couple of rookie mistakes.  All with good intentions-as most mistakes are-but I WAS scratching their heads! Right between the horns.  You see I thought that'd be the most difficult area for them to rub so thought I was doing a favor-kind of like rubbing behind a dog's ears, ya know?  Anyway-lesson learned for sure!

Also I wanted to say that I appreciate everyone being able to give advice without really being criticized. Everybody's got different opinions but I think we all handled it well!   I've been on other forums where if someone disagrees with someone else all hell seems to break lose.  Totally ruins the whole forum for me so I'm glad that doesn't really happen here.

And Melody! Specifically-thank you! Deep down I couldn't help but think everyone was reading this and shaking their heads at me.  I know it's rare-this behavior, so felt I obviously must have done it all wrong.  I DID learn a couple things, but it's good to know that maybe it wasn't ALL me!  That helped a lot too.


THANKS EVERYBODY!!!!


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## Queen Mum (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm really glad it worked out for you.  None of us is shaking our heads at you.  BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE! Really.  We all have been kicking ourselves in the buns at one time or another.  That is why this is such a good forum.


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## Mamaboid (Feb 19, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> I'm really glad it worked out for you.  None of us is shaking our heads at you.  BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE! Really.  We all have been kicking ourselves in the buns at one time or another.  That is why this is such a good forum.


Yup, I bet there isn't a mistake that can be made raising goats that someone on this forum hasn't made at one time or another.  Isn't it wonderful that we have all that knowledge at our fingertips.


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## BrownSheep (Feb 19, 2012)

Are you certain that both testicles were removed when he was castrated.  I bought a "wether" was actually a ram. The breeder,his first time castrating, only cut of the scrotum


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## 77Herford (Feb 20, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> I'm really glad it worked out for you.  None of us is shaking our heads at you.  BECAUSE WE HAVE ALL BEEN THERE! Really.  We all have been kicking ourselves in the buns at one time or another.  That is why this is such a good forum.


Ditto and for men you may of been kicked other places and that animal is still alive.


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## Queen Mum (Feb 20, 2012)




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