# Lactating doe...super hungry or just a pig?



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 25, 2010)

Oreo kidded Saturday.  Since then, she is pretty much STARVING all the time.  She has free choice alfalfa hay and water at all times.  I get her on stanchion in the mornings just to get her used to the idea (we will milk her once a day in a few weeks, once she and the triplets are well established) and give her 2/3 C textured grain with about 1/8 C BOSS on top.  This used to be all the she got for the day.  This is what my other does get per day.  She is a mini-nubian and weighs about 70 pounds when dry and unbred.

But, she is really CRYING to eat more.  I can't tell if she is really hungry or just being a little piggy.  I gave her another 1/3 C grain yesterday afternoon and she still acted hungry...well, famished, really.  She looked at the grain bins and really cried.  I don't want her to eat too much and get sick.  How do you know when it's too much?


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 25, 2010)

Adding 2/3rds to 1/8th gets me to about 8/10ths of a cup..  Unless your grain is particularly dense, that's WAY on the light side for a lactating doe.  

How much is enough....well, most milkers I know of are on a very scientifically devised ration-management program that goes a little something like this...the doe gets exactly as much grain as she can eat in the time it takes you to milk, twice a day, just so she won't get kicky or scream bloody murder while you're milking her out.



In all seriousness, though...less than a cup -- and we're talking a _dry measuring cup_ cup, right? -- probably isn't enough.  If you keep her at that level, I'd bet diamonds to doughnuts that two things are going to happen:

A) she's going to be a PITA to milk because she'll be done WAY before you are, and
B) she'll lose a considerable amount of weight in a hurry.  

There's also the possibility of C) Ketosis..  It's pretty much exactly like pregnancy toxemia, but results from a lactating doe using up all her reserves because she can't get enough to eat..  With her getting some feed and being on quality hay, I doubt this would happen....but do be careful.  


I think the general rule is like 1lb/3lbs..  As in, 1lb grain per 3lb milk..  A gallon is roughly 8lbs, so a goat that's milking a gallon a day in peak lactation would theoretically need almost 3lbs of grain a day..  A half-gallon milker would need just over 1lb..  

Of course, that doesn't take hay quality and all that into account, either..  I'm sure there are formulas and whatnot to calculate for that as well, but in my humble opinion, there's really no mathematical equivalent to the eyes of a caring, attentive herdsperson.

If you go 1lb and she's still screaming and seems to be thinning down more than you'd like...up the grain.  If she still scream but is getting pudgy at 1-1/2lbs, she's just being a hog, so cut her back..  So on, so forth.



If you up her grain, be sure to do it slowly..  An upset stummy is NO GOOD in a lactating doe with kids....unless you like diarrhea-covered kids, that is.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 25, 2010)

Ok.  Well, I guess I'll give her more then.  

I'm really not trying to starve her.  She just kidded trips and all were in great shape, and she is, too, on 2/3 C grain a day, so I don't think they were underfed or anything. She is a little goat.  I guess I am just scared of too much and bloat or something. I don't know what I'm scared of!  Just about everything, I think! 

Oreo thanks you kindly for your information.  

So, can she overeat the grain, or will she process the extra to make more milk?  And how slowly is slowly adding more?  Can you tell I've never had a milking doe before? YIKES!


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 25, 2010)

She absolutely _can_ overeat grain.  Any goat can overeat grain at any stage of life, be they bucks, wethers, dry does, lactating does...they can all overeat.  Bloat, acidosis, dietary scour, and other primarily grain-related issues are very acute conditions.  But, for the most part, we're talking about "broke into the feed room" type scenarios where they just GORGE themselves, unchecked and unfettered, for as long as they want.

Thing is...I seriously doubt that she's going to bloat up or go acidic...or probably even _scour_...if she went from 8/10th's once a day to 8/10ths _twice_ a day.  I'm not saying "DO THAT" or anything of course...that's totally your call  ...and that's not to say your concerns aren't absolutely valid.  They are valid, without question!  It's always better to be overly cautious than to be reckless.  

Still, between you, me, and the fencepost...and don't tell anybody I told you this  ... but I've pushed a hell of a lot more grain WAAY faster than that without so much as a clumpy turd to show for it.  Again -- I'm not advising that!  I'm just sayin....

Best advice I can give you is to pick a target amount and work toward it over the course of a week or 10 days.  If that seems fast, slow it down.  Splitting it across two feedings will help ease her into it, too...helps you avoid too much _all at once_, and that's important..

If I'm thinking right, though, I think your instinct will be to go to up 1C first, but split across two feedings to be safe....and I think your goat's gonna revolt at being DROPPED 3/10ths of a cup in the morning and butt you into next week.  

That's when I think you'll maybe start catching my overall drift here...to be careful, but be confident...and trust yourself...you'll be fine.  

BTW...it's clear that you care very deeply for the health and welfare of your animals, and that's about, oh I dunno, maybe 2/3rds plus another 1/8th or so of the battle.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 25, 2010)

This is a silly question I just have to ask: when folks say grain are they referring to a commercial pelleted ration (as in Purina or ADM)?  Or am I totally missing some vital piece of information...:/


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 25, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> If I'm thinking right, though, I think your instinct will be to go to up 1C first, but split across two feedings to be safe....and I think your goat's gonna revolt at being DROPPED 3/10ths of a cup in the morning and butt you into next week.


  There is NO WAY I am giving her any LESS at a time!  She'd probably eat a hole right through the stanchion and give me a good shove in the butt for good measure!


----------



## ksalvagno (Jan 25, 2010)

When most people refer to grain, they are referring to some type of commercial feed.


----------



## freemotion (Jan 25, 2010)

Unless it is me!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 26, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Unless it is me!


In which case you are referring to?


----------



## freemotion (Jan 26, 2010)

I am a big believer in whole grains.  It is slightly more work and takes some thoughtfulness and diligent observation skills, but it really works for me.

I have not had to worry about recalled feeds, pet foods, or people foods in years.  No one puts melamine in whole oats or barley or corn.


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 26, 2010)

We have a rectangular feeder on the front of our stanchion that holds one generous scoop of feed...roughly 2-3 #.

We fill it before we milk Derri, Dazzle, and Foxy.  Fill it again and Creampuff empties it ALONE...but she has lots of milk and small orifices, so it takes longer to milk her.  She also outweighs those does by a good 75#.
Then it's filled again and Missy and Hillary empty it.  
They don't give as much or weigh as much as Puff Mama does...but a bit more than the first 3.

At any point, if it's empty, the feeder gets thrown off, or they start kicking, or bellowing.  It's like "OH HECK NO, the FEEDER IS EMPTY...FILL IT NOW!!!" and whichever human isn't milking makes a mad dash to fill it before the milker gets kicked / bucket spilled / all the other does start bellowing.

Cardinal rule of milking...Thous shalt NOT let the feed pan runneth empty.

Our "grain" is a mix of 12% sweet feed, ADM 36% dairy goat ration, BOSS, and corn...the ratio of corn is dependent on the season...more in winter, almost none in summer...all top dressed w/ mineral, which is also in free-choice feeders.
The skinny girls also get a 1/2 cup of calf manna on their grain.

We mix it in empty chest freezers.  Keeps the rodents out and keeps me from having to handle 5 different bags every day.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 27, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> At any point, if it's empty, the feeder gets thrown off, or they start kicking, or bellowing.  It's like "OH HECK NO, the FEEDER IS EMPTY...FILL IT NOW!!!" and whichever human isn't milking makes a mad dash to fill it before the milker gets kicked / bucket spilled / all the other does start bellowing.
> 
> Cardinal rule of milking...Thous shalt NOT let the feed pan runneth empty.


  

A couple of times while my wife was milking, our buck jumped the gate into the barn and came running over to eat the milker's grain..  So my wife's milking like fighting fire while the doe's doing her level best to headbutt the buck while trapped in a stanchion.  

Good times.


----------



## dkluzier (Jan 27, 2010)

I agree with upping your ration of grain.  Our nursing nubian/pygmy doe gets 1 1/2 cups of grain Twice a day.  We offer free choice hay also. 

My "grain" is a mix of about 3/4 cup Dumor sweet food, 1/2 cup BOSS and 1/4 cup cracked corn at this time of year.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for the advice, guys!  I have already upped her grain (well, I have basically doubled it - I know it was too fast, but GOOD GRAVY! she was starving and CRYING to eat.  Anyway, no scours yet, so I think she can take it.  Now she is getting 2/3 C sweet grain and 1/3 C BOSS twice per day.  She INHALED it and about a flake of alfalfa hay, and about a gallon of water yesterday.  Poor dear, I WAS starving her.  I just didn't realize it.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 27, 2010)

Mini-M Ranch said:
			
		

> Thanks for the advice, guys!  I have already upped her grain (well, I have basically doubled it - I know it was too fast, but GOOD GRAVY! she was starving and CRYING to eat.  Anyway, no scours yet, so I think she can take it.  Now she is getting 2/3 C sweet grain and 1/3 C BOSS twice per day.  She INHALED it and about a flake of alfalfa hay, and about a gallon of water yesterday.  Poor dear, I WAS starving her.  I just didn't realize it.


Just out of curiosity....what's the protein and calcium content of BOSS, and how much does the total 1c ration weigh?

FWIW...most of our goats probably get varying amounts of grain everyday, as they kinda have to fight it out amongst themselves.  We have two, sometimes three, that we're pulling to the side (secretly  ) to feed extra grain, but otherwise, I literally have no way of knowing who got what on any given day.  Could be a cup, could be a few pellets..

For most of the herd, grain is just a way to get them out of our faces long enough to work..  It's just a tool, really.

We don't have anybody in milk, though..


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 27, 2010)

Sunflower seed kernels, dried Nutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)

Energy 	2,385 kJ (570 kcal)
Carbohydrates 	18.76 g
Sugars 	2.62 g
Dietary fiber 	10.5 g
Fat 	49.57 g
saturated 	5.20 g
monounsaturated 	9.46 g
polyunsaturated 	32.74 g
Protein 	22.78 g
Thiamine (Vit. B1) 	2.29 mg (176%)
Riboflavin (Vit. B2) 	0.25 mg (17%)
Niacin (Vit. B3) 	4.5 mg (30%)
Pantothenic acid (B5) 	6.75 mg (135%)
Vitamin B6 	0.77 mg (59%)
Folate (Vit. B9) 	227 μg (57%)
Vitamin C 	1.4 mg (2%)
Vitamin E 	34.50 mg (230%)
Calcium 	116 mg (12%)
Iron 	6.77 mg (54%)
Magnesium 	354 mg (96%)
Manganese 	2.02 mg (101%)
Phosphorus 	705 mg (101%)
Potassium 	689 mg (15%)
Sodium 	3 mg (0%)
Zinc 	5.06 mg (51%)

Source: USDA Nutrient database


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 27, 2010)

I wonder if that's just for grey striped (what is usually sold for humans) or for Black Oil...?  I believe I read that it's highest in calorie / fat value of the SS.

It makes up about 10% of our goat's diets...I also give it to the boys b/c I read it helps w/ urinary calculi....but the main reason I feed it is MAN, does it ever make those heifers shiny.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 27, 2010)

I think this is for the striped ones, because people don't usually eat the black oil ones, I guess.  The amounts for the Black Oil Seeds should be more than what is shown here, but I couldn't find an analysis of the BOSS.

When we first got our goats, the doe that just kidded had REALLY dry, flaky skin.  Her coat looked nice, but her skin was terrible.  You could see it flaky off when you brushed her.  We added just a bit of BOSS to their diet and it really cleared up her skin, and I think their hooves are stronger, too.  It is an important part of our diet here.  We give it to the chickens, too.

I need to research and see what else I can add to her feed to increase production.  She is nursing all three kids, and I want to make sure she has enough milk since she is being so careful in making sure that they all get to nurse.  I've heard oats are good to increase production, but I don't know how much and what kind of oats....sprouted, cut, rolled, cooked with butter and cinnamon (ok, jk on that).


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 27, 2010)

I'd have mine w/ butter and honey...

But wait...you weren't askin' me.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 28, 2010)

Roll said:
			
		

> I also give it to the boys b/c I read it helps w/ urinary calculi....


1:7 Cah ratio...  Unless it acidifies the urine somehow, I'm not sure how those numbers could help with UC.

Not saying it doesn't!!...just kinda scratchin' my head a lilbit.


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 28, 2010)

I don't even remember where I read it anymore, just remember reading it in DGJ or Goat Rancher once, there was another goat farmer who did it and said it helped, and explained why ...but it's been years...It wasn't long after our first (and thankfully ONLY) experience w/ UC, so I tried it.  
Since it makes my girls so pretty, I keep giving it to the goats.


----------

