# Two goats, or one sheep and one goat?



## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

I'm wanting to get a dairy goat to produce milk for me and my family. I have heard it's best to have at least 2 or either another hoofed animal for a friend.  Would it be better if I had two goats or would one sheep and one goat be okay?  And as far as the pen how big would it need to be?  I would be raising the young for meat BTW.


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## Alexz7272 (Jul 11, 2016)

I have both sheep and goats, I would recommend 2 goats. While they get along, it is not exactly the same. I am no expert, but would get 2 goats & 2 sheep if you want both 
The rule of thumb I've been told is 10-15 sq ft per a standard goat for a shelter, depends on how you'd like to feed them as well, in pasture or confined?


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

How large of a pen should I have for the 4?(if I go that route)  I will be letting them out to graze often.


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## Alexz7272 (Jul 11, 2016)

Do you want a fully enclosed shelter? I use a 3 sided hoop house like structure for 3 (soon to be 4) goats, 3 sheep and 2 alpacas. Made with 2 cattle pannels and a tarp. Will be expanded soon to 3 cattle panels as I am growing, but I've had no issues with it!


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

How large is your pen? I was thinking for 2 goats I would do an 8 x 16 pen with a 6x8 enclosure attached would that be to small?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 11, 2016)

I would not run them together. It may work out at first but with everyone I know, they run into issues down the road unless they have so much land where they can stay away from each other. You will also run into mineral issues too. 

You are on very limited space so that is something you want to look at. 

If you are planning on have goats for dairy products, I would encourage you to test for CAE, CL, and Johnes at least. Most sheep breeders don't test or don't care- putting your goats at risk. Sore mouth is another issue that is common in sheep. This can spread to goats and you too. You will be touching the goats nose, face, and udder on a regular basis opening you up to a possible greater risk of orf.


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

I wasn't not aware of all the issues brought on mixing the two thanks for the info.  Do you think a 8x16 pen with a 8x6 house would be suitable for 2 dairy goats? They will be able to graze often.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 11, 2016)

B3NZ0 said:


> How large is your pen? I was thinking for 2 goats I would do an 8 x 16 pen with a 6x8 enclosure attached would that be to small?


That is a bit small. The entire area would need to have a good layer of grit to prevent mud. Mud=parasites and hoof issues. 

Their pen would need to be raked and swept daily. You would need to to feed lots of good quality hay and feed. Even then, they still wouldn't be able run and play. 

Waisted hay will also need to be picked up daily. 

What breed are you looking at getting?


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

What would you recommend?  Any suggestions on particular breed of dairy goats?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 11, 2016)

How much milk will you be needing on a daily basis?


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

I'd probably be fine with a quart or two really anything over would go towards butter, cheese and livestock.


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

And I was thinking on Alpine dairy goats.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 11, 2016)

Alpines can be big goats, if you freshen 2 decent does you will be looking at least 2 gallons a day by their 2 or 3rd freshening. Because you will be on a dry-lot, you are going to have to feed them. Big goats will eat a LOT. Does can get to 160 pounds... That is a lot of goat in such a small area. This will be a lot of poop to clean, water to supply, and free choice alfafla and lots of feed will be necessary. 
I wouldn't put 2 full sized alpine does in an area that small. 

Have you looked at Mini-Alpines? They are a cross of Nigerian Dwarf & Alpine. They are much smaller, eat less, easier on the land, have better feed to milk conversion, and will still produce more than a Nigerian. 

Where are you located?


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

Wichita Kansas

I have thought about the Nigerian dwarfs but, never thought about a cross of the 2


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 11, 2016)

Another think you need to think about is kidding. If each doe gives twins you have 6 goats in such a small pen for at least 8 weeks (I like large breeds on milk for at least 16 weeks). That is too much. You could pull the kids at birth and sell them as bottle babies after they get colostrum- but you have guarantee that they'll sell that fast. You also need to really know goats before you start pulling and bottle feeding.  

As I mentioned before, you will absolutely need to have some sort of grit that packs down nicely. Here in NC we have a grit called chapel hill grit. Others call it rock dust. It packs down like concrete but allows urine to drain thru. It is easy to clean and maintain. We have 2 pens with the grit and as long as you keep it swept it looks and smells fine. You can't leave them on grass or dirt in something that small. It's a disaster waiting to happen. If you'd like, I can post some pics of our pens with the grit.


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

Yes please post some pics!

I can go bigger with my pen.(I have yet to build it)  I trying to find out how large it needs to be before I build one.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 11, 2016)

I'll have to see and get some pics 

It may take a few days


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 11, 2016)

Right on


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## chiques chicks (Jul 12, 2016)

I have 2 mini nubians and a Nigerian in a pen roughly 16x40. They did fine in that area for several months.

I recently got movable electric netting and cleared some paths around my wooded/brushy area. I now let them out in anywhere from 1000- 2000 square feet to browse. They spend about half their time browsing and half lounging in the pen (they are free to come and go all day).

Their shelter is 8x10. They seem fine and actually lay there during the day during hot weather even though they have lots of outside shade.

Just as an


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## B3NZ0 (Jul 12, 2016)

chiques chicks said:


> I have 2 mini nubians and a Nigerian in a pen roughly 16x40. They did fine in that area for several months.
> 
> I recently got movable electric netting and cleared some paths around my wooded/brushy area. I now let them out in anywhere from 1000- 2000 square feet to browse. They spend about half their time browsing and half lounging in the pen (they are free to come and go all day).
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## Ponker (Jul 12, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Most sheep breeders don't test or don't care-



This isn't true. Many sheep breeders test for OPP, Johnes, and Scrapie resistant gene at codon 171 and more people are starting to test even further for Scrapie resistance. I belong to the Finnsheep Breeders Association. In the Finnsheep community testing is primary. Sheep don't leave home to enter another flock without blood tests, and flock tests negative for OPP since that test isn't accurate in young lambs. 

As for the size and of the shelter, I'm with @chiques chicks I use portable electric netting and regularly move the herds around. At night the sheep come to the barnyard which is a permanent fenced area closer to the house. It is a smaller area meant for lambing and working the herd. I feed them in this enclosure depending on body condition and check each one. It isn't hard, I'm stroking each ewe and giving scratches. I use this time to make sure everyone is healthy and has correct body condition. In this small area, it is easier to give medicine, drench, shots, trim hooves ... So while this enclosure is smaller, they are out on grass all day. It is more work and they mess the place every night which means cleaning it every morning.  But I have peace of mind they're all in good shape. 

The goats have an 80'x100' area where their shelter is permanently fixed. It is an 18'x20' converted carport. The buck and his wether are handled separately.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 12, 2016)

Ponker said:


> This isn't true. Many sheep breeders test for OPP, Johnes, and Scrapie resistant gene at codon 171 and more people are starting to test even further for Scrapie resistance. I belong to the Finnsheep Breeders Association. In the Finnsheep community testing is primary. Sheep don't leave home to enter another flock without blood tests, and flock tests negative for OPP since that test isn't accurate in young lambs.



Gene testing for scrapie is relatively common with serious sheep breeders but OPP and Johnes are  not.
As a matter of fact you are the only sheep breeder I know of that does test for these. However you do not test for CL. CL is a serious issue and sheep generally have internal whereas goats show the lumps and are more "external". 
CL is not something you want in dairy goats as it zoonotic. 
Most sheep breeders and meat goat breeders do not care about CL because the animals are terminal and are slaughtered between 4-6 months.


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## Ponker (Jul 12, 2016)

@Southern by choice Some sheep breeds are not terminal because they're kept for their wool. As I was looking around for a breed of sheep to settle upon, I found Shetland, Icelandic, Karakul, Southdown, and more breeders who test, and many other top shelf breeders who do test for Johne's and OPP. I respectfully have to disagree about


Southern by choice said:


> Gene testing for scrapie is relatively common with serious sheep breeders but OPP and Johnes are not.


It is a requirement for many sheep breeders who acquire sheep from other herds. I won't buy lambs that don't come from a tested herd and I know most of my buyers request the results of testing. I must be in a different circle of breeders than the serious sheep breeders you know.

I agree that CL needs to be included in the testing of both sheep and goats. My goats come from a tested herd and I know people who won't buy goats from a vaccinated herd because a vaccinated herd will test positive so there is no way to discern a real positive from a vaccine positive without visible signs of the disease. I know people who show and do vaccinate because acquiring the disease is a worse outcome than a false positive test result. So there again, it boils down to what someone personally is comfortable with.

I will add Cl to my testing regime. I use Genecheck and they don't offer a CL test right now. I'll have to email them and see if they'll add it or I'll have to find a different lab. Sent them a mail... we'll see what they respond.

Sorry for the thread hijack. Didn't mean for this discussion to turn into something about disease testing for sheep but I feel the need to speak up when a species is painted with a broad brush, especially my beloved sheep.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 12, 2016)

@Ponker I am so glad to see that there are breeders that do test! That has really encouraged me! 

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anyone who tests 
I see so many that say they don't have disease, but don't test to prove it. 

I'm sorry if you were offended, that was not my intention. 

I had looked for a very long time at getting meat sheep... Long story short that will probably never happen  I can't find anyone that tests and it seems to be laughed at.  

My other issue was with the sore mouth. I don't know if you have seen it, but everyone I have talked to just says its part of having sheep and its no big deal. In my case, because I raise dairy goats that are ALL OVER me it would be a big deal. We also have people that visit and play with the baby goats, I was/am worried that somebody could possibly contract it. Have you seen these same issues with the sore mouth?


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## Ponker (Jul 12, 2016)

@Goat Whisperer I was not offended. I'm sorry if my response came across as such. I have not seen sore mouth except in photos on the internet. At one time, I wanted to show my sheep but the diseases that are spread at shows and fairs scared the crap out of me and I decided it was not going to happen. 

My quest for healthy sheep was a long one. The more I read and learned the more I started to realize that I'd rather not have sheep or goats for that matter if I couldn't find tested healthy ones. Most breeders I found were out east, a long way from Arkansas. But I found one in Northern Missouri who was willing to meet me so I had to drive only four hours (one way) to pick up my first sheep. I was hooked and joined facebook groups that many breeders belong to who DO test, and not just Finns. I had two Katahdin cross ewes that I tested to make sure they were healthy.  It's not easy to find commercial flocks who test 100% most who do test, only test a percentage. 

As Southern by Choice mentioned I am scared of CL, soremouth, and foot rot. I have a four year old granddaughter who cuddles the sheep. Soremouth would kill me as would foot rot and CL. My farm wasn't used for stock for many years so I have a relatively clean slate. I'll pay more and have fewer animals if that is what it takes to make sure I only have healthy ones but there is still a risk. I'm getting sheep by transport on the 15th of July. Anything could happen along the way. I pray that my sheep arrive in good health. With these final four lambs, my flock is finished and closed. I won't need any new blood for years. I hope the deer stay far away... but not too far. I want one or two for the freezer LOL


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## Southern by choice (Jul 12, 2016)

Encouraged me as well @Ponker! 

It would be a fun thread for the sheep forum. Curious who else is testing.

As far as getting back to the poster... We are a dairy goat farm but we did have some sheep. We had the sheep in with our goats all went well UNTIL they matured. One was a ewe one was a wether. They became very nasty towards the goats and started ramming them.
It got bad. Goats rear up and will come down and butt sheep runn forward and ram. It cause a lot of stress for our livestock guardian dogs as well. They were always trying to interfere and keep the peace. The dogs were highly bonded to the goats so they were always more protective of them.

Long story short the ramming put our bred does in danger of aborting. The dogs began to really stress. Another dog in another field, NOT even in with this group, started going ballistic. To this day she HATES sheep. When we finally put the sheep in a huge pasture( yeah for two flipping sheep) they would break out of the wire go in the woods trot back "home" and stand in our driveway.  We knew when they were out because our one dog from her field could see them... she would go nuts.

We eventually rehomed them... no matter what they just went through any fence.... we live on a highway and the last straw was them down the road and stopping traffic.

Ours did not work out being together. I have heard from sheep people that it is the two goats they got that were making life miserable.... so that is our experience.

It doesn't mean that it will be everyone else's. Just make sure you have a back up plan if they don't do well together.

BTW sheep can really graze! It is amazing how they can "mow" the grass so fast! Goats don't do that. IMO sheep aren't as picky about the land and what they eat. Keep that in mind.

I would love to have a few sheep on pasture and put lamb in my freezer. Ponker has renewed my faith that it may be possible after all.


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## norseofcourse (Jul 12, 2016)

I agree that either goats or sheep would be preferable to one of each.  I don't have firsthand experience with goat behavior, but I've read more than one post here that speaks of difficulties between the two getting along.  And there's the mineral difference to consider (sheep need less copper than goats do).

It's interesting reading about the testing.  Testing in sheep must vary a lot, maybe by region? Breed? Breeder?  I admit I didn't know much about sheep when I got my first two, and I didn't ask about testing.  But I do know my sheep's parent stock came from a farm that practiced a totally 'hands-off' approach, sort of like a survival of the fittest philosophy.  Which meant no wormings or vaccinations, so I would guess no testing either (they may not have sheep now, they sold them and moved, but I have met them and chatted, and they said they realize now the hands-off approach was not the way to go).

Since I am milking my ewes (not much this year tho), I may test mine for some things, I have still been reading up on it.  And I'd have to learn how to draw the blood, or pay the vet to come do it (he is good but I know testing my five would run quite a bit).  Anyway, it's slightly off the subject of the thread, but good info and I'm glad @Ponker brought it up.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 20, 2016)

B3NZ0 said:


> Yes please post some pics!
> 
> I can go bigger with my pen.(I have yet to build it)  I trying to find out how large it needs to be before I build one.


Sorry it's been a while. Snapped some pics today, would you like me to post them?


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## SheepGirl (Jul 21, 2016)

As for soremouth, I have found it is mainly in show flocks. Everyone I know with commercial flocks seems to not have issues. In 2013, I thought my flock had soremouth as I had some bumps pop up on little lamb noses. Haven't seen anything since then. The vet I talked to (the breeder of the ram I bought) said it could've been fungal, not necessarily soremouth. That must've been it since nothing has popped up since then.

As for testing, I don't test my flock. The added costs of testing don't seem worth it. Being as I sell mainly meat sheep and my buyers are looking for animals to eat, not breed, testing doesn't matter to them anyway. If I were selling seedstock, then sure, I might test.

And goats and sheep, I have a single goat with my flock. She is a nice little goat. She and the ram butt heads frequently but that is the only one I seem to see she doesn't like. She has gotten comfortable with the sheep, she doesn't like being a part from them.


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## chiques chicks (Jul 21, 2016)

And of course we want pictures! Always, any time!


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 21, 2016)

Finally got a minute to post 

I'm pretty lucky, the guy we order from is pretty close so I bought this last truckload for ~$130 with delivery included  

Here its called chapel hill grit, other places call it rock dust, grit, etc. Many horse farms use is in their barns.
We use the grit in 2 pens, walkways, barn, and other heavy traffic areas. You just need to keep it clean. 
loose...







 
Messy pens














Easy to clean with a broom.


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