# Breeding for Color Question



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 28, 2011)

From what I have read, Nigerian Dwarf Goats have such various colors and patterns, it really is not possible to predict color of offspring. Is this a correct statement? While certain people are breeding for spots, I prefer solids, and am wondering if it really matter what the buck looks like. For example, one of my does is buck skin, one is black with white spots. The dam was solid chocolate and the sire was mostly black. 

Is it all really just up to mother nature?


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 28, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> From what I have read, Nigerian Dwarf Goats have such various colors and patterns, it really is not possible to predict color of offspring. Is this a correct statement? While certain people are breeding for spots, I prefer solids, and am wondering if it really matter what the buck looks like. For example, one of my does is buck skin, one is black with white spots. The dam was solid chocolate and the sire was mostly black.
> 
> Is it all really just up to mother nature?


Typically it is the buck that determines wht the offspring look like.  This guy , for example, has proven to throw Buckskin kids.  My buck, Marly , has proven to throw chamoise/chamoisee kids like Olivia
I have been doing quite a bit of research on this subject myself.

I will let you know how much of what I have read actually holds true.  One of the things I read, says that if you breed one white with black spots/markings goat to another white with black spots/markings goat, then you will either get primarily black with some white spots/markings or you will get solid black, or you will have a litter with one or two solid black and one or two black with some white spots/markings.  
I will be finding out in December if this is acurate or not, as I bred the pair, *pictured below* , to find out if this is true or not.


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 28, 2011)

So if these are my girls.......











What if I breed them to this little guy? Any guesses?






He's got some freckles!


----------



## that's*satyrical (Sep 28, 2011)

Well, solid might be a long shot with that combo  but like you said with Nigies you never know...


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 28, 2011)

Wow - your Olivia is BEAUTIFUL. And I'm dying to see the kids from the pair in your picture. I love their markings too. It's not that I'm against spots, I just like a solid or an even pattern better. For example, I could never own a dalmation.  I may have a little undiagnosed issue with patterns and balance/evenness.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Sep 28, 2011)

I gotcha, I prefer a pattern that is more pleasing to the eye than too busy myself...   My buck clinton is mostly white with a few small gold spots but out of 13 babies with different dams most of them were mostly gold with a little cream.  Even with Enya who is mostly black he had 3 gold babies out of 4 (they all had a touch of cream on thier sides & some had frosting) Then he had a tri-color with her that was much lighter than her with a pretty pattern, not too busy & blue eyes. It's so neat I think that you don't know what to expect. It's like opening a present on Christmas morning when you're a kid!! 

Sample kid:








http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13847

link to pics of mom & dad


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 28, 2011)

OOOOOOO - your goats are very pretty too! I love the gold color! She reminds me of those caramel candies with the cream in the middle.  I just love the solids. But I guess if I loved spots I'd be fighting Rolls and Red Tail Gal for spotted babies.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Sep 28, 2011)

thanks  I have to say I would love to get one of those caramel cream babies with the blue eyes. I think that would be gorgeous!! If you look close in that pic you can see the twin behind momma with the same coloring.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 29, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> So if these are my girls.......
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/3869_p5290504.jpg
> 
> ...


Okay, so for breeding that male to the top female, your odds of getting solid buckskin or buckskin with a small white star here and there will be quite high.
With the second female, your odds of getting solid black or black/chocolate kids would be higher if you bred her to another black or black/chocolate.
Paired with that male, you stand the chance of getting buckskin w/ white spots, doberman coloration(cant recall the terminology), or you might even get chocolate brown to a nice mohagany with white, black, or both markings.


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 29, 2011)

> Okay, so for breeding that male to the top female, your odds of getting solid buckskin or buckskin with a small white star here and there will be quite high.
> With the second female, your odds of getting solid black or black/chocolate kids would be higher if you bred her to another black or black/chocolate.
> Paired with that male, you stand the chance of getting buckskin w/ white spots, doberman coloration(cant recall the terminology), or you might even get chocolate brown to a nice mohagany with white, black, or both markings.


So if I breed him to my black doe I'll get anything BUT solid white!  The only guarantee with this buck is four legs and two ears! 

I can't afford to purchase a buck this year, so this little spotted fellow will be used. Next year I may be able to purchase a herd sire of my own.

Thanks Livinwright.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 29, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> > Okay, so for breeding that male to the top female, your odds of getting solid buckskin or buckskin with a small white star here and there will be quite high.
> > With the second female, your odds of getting solid black or black/chocolate kids would be higher if you bred her to another black or black/chocolate.
> > Paired with that male, you stand the chance of getting buckskin w/ white spots, doberman coloration(cant recall the terminology), or you might even get chocolate brown to a nice mohagany with white, black, or both markings.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but yeah, that's pretty much it. Even breeding white to white, unless you are talking Saanens, there is no guarantee of getting solid white kids... you could end up with caramel, red, or heavily dalmation spotted.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 29, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Typically it is the buck that determines wht the offspring look like.


That has not been the case on our farm.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 29, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Squirrelgirl88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you please explain what you're basing this on?  I've never seen any research showing such a high degree of predictability  in ND color.  Even anecdotally I've never encountered such a high degree of predictability.  I know your experience with NDs is limited so you must have some reference materials to share?  There's one ND color/genetics website routinely referenced, but I don't recall that it discusses heritability in any hard-and-fast terms.  

Phenotype and genotype are NOT the same thing, remember.  I just had the perfect example born on my farm earlier this week.  Dam is a light (classic) buckskin, sire is a broken chamoisee with roaning and moonspots: the kid is an unusual red/cream buckskin traceable to his maternal grandsire.  Do either of the parents show red in their phenotype?  Absolutely not!  I was flabbergasted when he hit the ground!  But my doe carries her sire's color genetics in her genotype.  Breeding NDs is like Christmas morning every kidding- even experienced breeders just don't know what they're going to get.  The genetics of color in NDs are just not that well understood yet.  I'm sure some of the seasoned folks can back me up on that.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 29, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting... could you share some pictures, or links to pictures, of the pairings(and their parents) and resulting kids for us? I am curious and would like to see where colorations are coming from.... recessive or dominant.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 29, 2011)

Actually, this doe actually did the same thing her last kidding- she is a light buckskin, was bred to a heavily moonspotted classic buckskin buck, and produced a chocolate silver buckskin doe kid.  This color was easily traceable to the dam's paternal grand dam.  But again, on the maternal side.  Not to say that dam line color genetics are more highly heritable- her twin brother is the spitting image of his sire's color pattern.  But it's another example where a) the sire did not determine color and b) the kid showed a coloration outside of both parent's phenotype.

A quick glance at my website will show you the dam (www.smithurmonds.com/sandy), last season's doe (www.smithurmonds.com/pony), and the buck kid born earlier this week (www.smithurmonds.com/goats_for_sale).  The sire of the buck kid can be seen here: (www.smithurmonds.com/merlot).  Although both kids' pattern is buckskin there are obviously other factors involved.  Neither the chocolate nor red colors are expressed by either parent.

I'm not an expert on genetics by any stretch of the imagination.  I just wanted to point out that a) phenotype and genotype are both going to contribute to color, so what you see may not be what you get and b) it is well-accepted that this subject is poorly understood.  Those predicting heritability are far more confident than I!


----------



## that's*satyrical (Sep 29, 2011)




----------



## elevan (Sep 29, 2011)

Our Snickers is a ND / Pygmy Cross.  Dam was a lovely peach color with cream spots ND and sire was a typical caramel pygmy.

This is what Snickers looks like:








IF sire determined color then Snickers should have turned out looking like a caramel pygmy.  The breeder that I purchased Snickers from had a large quantity of registered NDs and registered pygmies.  The breeding that resulted in Snickers was an accident.  All of her ND breedings were a collage.  None of those kids looked exactly like their sire or their dam.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 29, 2011)

Your Snickers is a classic buckskin.   It seems like the buckskin pattern is pretty highly heritable- I have had a buckskin doe produce a solid kid before when bred to a solid buck, but by and large it seems like buckskins tend to produce buckskins in some form or another.  But it's not the case 100% of the time.


----------



## rascal (Sep 29, 2011)

Does anyone know if black is a dominant trait? My gut says yes, as one black buck gave us all black (or mostly) kids for the years we had him. Years later we're still getting black kids out of at least one black parent...


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 29, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Actually, this doe actually did the same thing her last kidding- she is a light buckskin, was bred to a heavily moonspotted classic buckskin buck, and produced a chocolate silver buckskin doe kid.  This color was easily traceable to the dam's paternal grand dam.  But again, on the maternal side.  Not to say that dam line color genetics are more highly heritable- her twin brother is the spitting image of his sire's color pattern.  But it's another example where a) the sire did not determine color and b) the kid showed a coloration outside of both parent's phenotype.
> 
> A quick glance at my website will show you the dam (www.smithurmonds.com/sandy), last season's doe (www.smithurmonds.com/pony), and the buck kid born earlier this week (www.smithurmonds.com/goats_for_sale).  The sire of the buck kid can be seen here: (www.smithurmonds.com/merlot).  Although both kids' pattern is buckskin there are obviously other factors involved.  Neither the chocolate nor red colors are expressed by either parent.
> 
> I'm not an expert on genetics by any stretch of the imagination.  I just wanted to point out that a) phenotype and genotype are both going to contribute to color, so what you see may not be what you get and b) it is well-accepted that this subject is poorly understood.  Those predicting heritability are far more confident than I!


So if I'm trying to breed for a more solid color and I have Nigerian Dwarf Goats, I might as well try to breed for a unicorn. I'd have as much luck. Is that the message here? It really goes so much deeper than what color the dam/sire and grand dam/grand sire were. 

So you do like any "parent" you just pray for healthy babies and take what you get!


----------



## elevan (Sep 29, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> So if I'm trying to breed for a more solid color and I have Nigerian Dwarf Goats, *I might as well try to breed for a unicorn*. I'd have as much luck. Is that the message here? It really goes so much deeper than what color the dam/sire and grand dam/grand sire were.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 29, 2011)

I have a solid buck and he has produced solid kids.  It's not totally random- you will certain increase your chances of producing solid kids if you have two solid parents.  But it's not guaranteed because color is not specified in the breed standard.  Breeders don't routinely breed for color, they breed for mammary systems, conformation, production ability, etc.  Yes there are people out there breeding pets exclusively for blue eyes and flash, but that's certainly not the case with the majority interested in improving the breed.  So each animal will have a variety of colors and patterns in its pedigree.  This may be OT as far as this thread is concerned, but I think it's important to note that if you're breeding for color alone then you aren't breeding for anything more than pets.  If pets are what you're after- qualities such as ease of keeping and temperament are good selection factors.  IMO they far outweigh the importance of color.  I love all the gorgeous colors and variety of patterns I see in the breed, but it's just the icing on the cake.


----------



## MrsDieselEngineer (Sep 29, 2011)

Does anyone know if there is a color test for goats like they do with horses?  Horse colors are so much easier when you know if the sire or dam has a dominant or recessive color gene.  LOL  Goats just seem to be all over the place unless you're breeding Saanans, Boers, or the like.


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Sep 29, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I have a solid buck and he has produced solid kids.  It's not totally random- you will certain increase your chances of producing solid kids if you have two solid parents.  But it's not guaranteed because color is not specified in the breed standard.  Breeders don't routinely breed for color, they breed for mammary systems, conformation, production ability, etc.  Yes there are people out there breeding pets exclusively for blue eyes and flash, but that's certainly not the case with the majority interested in improving the breed.  So each animal will have a variety of colors and patterns in its pedigree.  This may be OT as far as this thread is concerned, but I think it's important to note that if you're breeding for color alone then you aren't breeding for anything more than pets.  If pets are what you're after- qualities such as ease of keeping and temperament are good selection factors.  IMO they far outweigh the importance of color.  I love all the gorgeous colors and variety of patterns I see in the breed, but it's just the icing on the cake.


We do not show our goats and while I understand breed standards and why they exist, I am primarily breeding only for milk production for my family. I have registered the girls with ADGA only to make the process of selling the kids easier and maybe more profitable since we have to breed to get milk. My goats are my pets, and they get to live out their lives here rather the milk production is record breaking or not. I'm not going to choose a poor producing doe just because she has blue eyes or I like her markings. That being said, if two does have equal conformation, mammary systems etc., I'm going to pick the cutest one!


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 29, 2011)

MrsDieselEngineer said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there is a color test for goats like they do with horses?  Horse colors are so much easier when you know if the sire or dam has a dominant or recessive color gene.  LOL  Goats just seem to be all over the place unless you're breeding Saanans, Boers, or the like.


If not yet, I am sure someone will come out with one... 
I know someone told me(within the year) that "there is currently no DNA testing for goats to know what breeds are in a mixed breed anima"l, however, if you read the ALBC page for Arapawa goats, it mentions that they have done DNA testing on the breed and have found that the specific markers in the DNA of Arapawa is so close to what was the Old English goat, that it is highly possible that Arapawa are the lone reminants of the Old English(thought to be extinct).

So, anything is possible.

Smithurmond: There are cases of breeders who are able to successfully produce goats with blue eyes and/or flash that also have good conformation, production levels, and mammary systems. It just takes finding just the right combination of goats to pull it off.
As you well know, Rosasharn has been able to produce flashy goats that also have splendid conformation, production levels, and mammary systems. So has Stonewall, Goodwood, Dragonfly, Proctor Hill, and NCPromisedLand... all of which have multiple *M's and multiple ARMCH's in & from their herds.

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is breeding for coloration alone. Any of the members here that I have gotten to know are all for improving the breed.

As to the breeding you mentioned of the light buckskin doe to the heavily moonspotted classic buckskin buck... in any animal color genetics that I have seen, that is quite possibly what cause the "chocolate silver" buckskin to come to the surface.  The direct to direct will commonly cause recessive to come out... Personally, I would term the coloration inverted buckskin or red silver. Inversion(red/black to black) creates blue in birds(IE: blue laced red wyandottes) or rodents(blue/lilac agouti gerbils), but goats' color genes operate slightly differently where red is the more common occurance.
It could come from either side, I just mentioned that in my experience it has been the males that determine the coloration. Regardless of where the color comes from in who's herd, I feel it is important to have a picture pedigree in addition to the standard pedigree. It definitely helps to have some idea of what may be lurking & waiting to come out(good and bad).


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 29, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ditto  I now make sure to see pedigrees and get visuals of parents and grand parents whenever possible, and if all looks as it should then I start selecting which is more "WOW!"  If at all possible I like having substance * & *flash... otherwise, no insult to those who raise them, but I might as well just raise Saanens.  Of course, they do make animal safe hair colorants..... hmm...   Just joking, I don't believe in dying any animal's hair, unless it is after it has been removed from the animal.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 30, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Smithurmond: There are cases of breeders who are able to successfully produce goats with blue eyes and/or flash that also have good conformation, production levels, and mammary systems. It just takes finding just the right combination of goats to pull it off.
> As you well know, Rosasharn has been able to produce flashy goats that also have splendid conformation, production levels, and mammary systems. So has Stonewall, Goodwood, Dragonfly, Proctor Hill, and NCPromisedLand... all of which have multiple *M's and multiple ARMCH's in & from their herds.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone here is breeding for coloration alone. Any of the members here that I have gotten to know are all for improving the breed.


You don't have to tell me this- I HAVE Rosasharn animals in my herd (although I dare you to try to find any blue eyed animal with the Rosasharn herd name.)  Beautiful colors are a given with the breed- of course you're going to have all kinds of flash in successful herds.  It's not as if by selecting for something else you're going to eliminate the wide variety of colors in the gene pool.  Arguing that successful show herds must have selected for color just because they have bred flashy goats doesn't make any sense.  NDs are colorful goats!  When you select for mammary systems, conformation, production, ect- you're going to get colorful goats!  It would be worded more appropriately, 'Rosasharn has been able to produce goats that have splendid conformation, etc... and they HAPPEN to be flashy.'  Yes, it's part of the deal with ND and one of the things I love about the breed.

If the OP or other folks reading the thread aren't breeding for color then that information need not apply, but I stand behind the value in pointing it out.  I'm not criticizing anyone's program.  I'm merely addressing the very title and subject matter of this thread, "Breeding for Color."


----------



## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

OOOhhhh, was that a dare??  I'm off on a wild goose chase now for a Rosasharn with blue eyes. Not because it actually matters that much to me, just because it's a dare... lol


----------



## lilhill (Sep 30, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## helmstead (Sep 30, 2011)

I stand behind what Nicki is trying to get across here.  I don't CARE what color my goats are, really.  They could be yellow polkadotted purple...as long as they milk and show.  "Color Breeders" are a bit of a joke in the goat world (and the horse world, for that matter).  I get emails all the time, "I want to place a reservation on a blue eyed, moonspotted, polled goat," and it makes me gag.  It's BLING.  Yes, I'm excited when I get something pretty, but that cannot be the goal.  If I'm TRYING to produce that elusive blue eyed, polled, moonspotted thing...I've taken my eyes of the prize.

As far as color goes...certain things are *generally* true.  Black and red are *generally* dominant.  The agouti locus is *generally* dominant.  Patterns, such as buckskin, cous, chamoisee, moonspots and pinto markings are of varying dominance depending on the parentage, and as Nicki said - sometimes you have to go WAY back.

One can speculate expected colors on kids - but it's nothing like a horse where you breed a chestnut to a cream and get a palomino (and even that is not so straightforward).

My red buck, you would think, would produce mostly reds since red is dominant.  I think he's produced 3 or 4 true reds for us.  He mostly produces golds and buckskins!  With the occasional black, and the occasional heavy broken pattern.

My taupe bezoar produces a ton of gold, and then chamoisees.  He also throws in the occasional white.

My buckskin buck has produced almost all buckskin kids - I would have thought he was homozygous, except he's also allowed the doe's color to come through once, producing a gold.

A black agouti buck I once had threw a huge percentage of black agouti kids.

I have black does that have NEVER produced a black kid, but those doe kids that are colored tend to produce black offspring that mirror the granddam.  Chocolate carriers tend to not often reproduce the color, but it skips a generation.  My white doe hasn't ever produced a white kid.  Heavy moonspotted does tend to produce solid kids LOL and pintos are just hit and miss.  My dalmation doe cloned herself once, with twins that were crazy colorful and didn't look anything like the sire.  

Hit and miss.  That's what's fun about it.


----------



## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

> Hit and miss. That's what's fun about it


x2!


----------



## elevan (Sep 30, 2011)

Years of experience and many, many NDs bred and born with n.smithurmond and helmstead.  Thank you ladies for sharing your color experiences.


----------



## BarredRockMomma (Sep 30, 2011)

I have two ND does and thinking about breeding. If I want cream or gold colored. (they have full and half siblings that are cream) What color buck would give the best chance of this coloring. I know it is not a sicence with goat coloring just want to try and stack the deck in my favor. Of couse the first thing I will look at it milk records and color second.

Rosemary (Rosy)

Her body is the color of her head. And she won't stand still for the camera. 







Jasmine (Jazy)


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks Kate for giving some information on the genetics.  It's interesting to note- the daughter of Kate's black doe (a buckskin) produced a solid black doe kid for me.  She was the spittin' image of her grand-dam.    It certainly adds a wonderful, surprising element to these awesome little goats.  

Double dog dare you *satyrical...


----------



## ksalvagno (Sep 30, 2011)

This is the exact thing that goes on with other animals. Even in alpacas, it is hard to predict what colors will come out. There are very few farms that have done extensive line breeding to guarantee black or gray (the hot and wanted colors in alpacas). It is really hard to breed specifically for color and keep the true qualities of what the animal is really bred for. Most new breeders are drawn to the colors but the longer you are in it, the more you tend towards the original qualities that you got into the animal for. Like in alpacas, breeding for quality fiber and not color. In dairy goats, breeding for quality mammary. This is just the very basics. I get excited about a "flashy" goat like anyone else does but their other more important qualities like udder and milking ability come first.

Luckily in ND's there is still enough of a pet market that you can focus on "flashy" goats and not worry about mammary. Me, I'm all about the milk and the flash is just a really really nice bonus.


----------



## Goatmasta (Sep 30, 2011)

BarredRockMomma said:
			
		

> I have two ND does and thinking about breeding. If I want cream or gold colored. (they have full and half siblings that are cream) What color buck would give the best chance of this coloring. I know it is not a sicence with goat coloring just want to try and stack the deck in my favor. Of couse the first thing I will look at it milk records and color second.


If you want the deck stacked in your favor (to get a specific color) Buy the color of goat you want.  There are no stacked decks when it comes to color in goats.

PS: In Nigerians.  obviously some breeds have color standards.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 30, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, that is why I said "as you well know"  
I know that I have seen *1* blue eyed goat that bore the herd name Rosasharn.....  I know at least the sire of the blue eyed doe I was checking out recently was Rosasharn... The doe being Blue Eyed Betty.
I will have to google to try and find that 1 bearing the herd name Rosasharn... I know there is at least the *1* out there.

I think some things were mutually misunderstood.
To clarify, I was not "arguing that successful show herds must have selected for color". I was simply stating that there can be flash *&* production, conformation in show quality herds... since you had stated earlier that "Yes there are people out there breeding pets exclusively for blue eyes and flash, but that's certainly not the case with the majority interested in improving the breed."


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Oct 1, 2011)

So how do you know if your goats come from good lines if you can't talk to the original breeder? My girls have parents from Tiny Tubbies (ADGA) and Forget Me Not (AGA). Should I contact the original herd owners and see what they can tell me?


----------



## ksalvagno (Oct 1, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> So how do you know if your goats come from good lines if you can't talk to the original breeder? My girls have parents from Tiny Tubbies (ADGA) and Forget Me Not (AGA). Should I contact the original herd owners and see what they can tell me?


Absolutely! If they are good breeders, then they would be happy to talk to you.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Oct 1, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> So how do you know if your goats come from good lines if you can't talk to the original breeder? My girls have parents from Tiny Tubbies (ADGA) and Forget Me Not (AGA). Should I contact the original herd owners and see what they can tell me?


Yup, definitely talk with them  , and I assume the (AGA) is a typo which was meant to be (AGS)..?  Since a quick google search didn't bring up any AGA dealing with goats.


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Oct 1, 2011)

yes - AGS, sorry.


----------



## Roll farms (Oct 2, 2011)

I will admit that I am breeding for color - with boers.  BUT I am also trying to improve the colored boers, the teat structure and size..
Some breeders will breed any 2 colored goats and sell the offspring for big $, even if they're a truly inferior animal.

I tried to argue w/ a lady reserving a Nubian a few weeks ago.  She insisted she wanted a 'spotted' kid.  I agreed my spotted doe foxy's kid would be a good choice, but argued about making Derri her second choice.  I don't care for her udder and she has a really short lactation for a Nub - I keep her for sentimental reasons and b/c her wethers (I never sell her buck kids as breeding bucks) do well in 4-H.

I suggested a blue roan doe as her 2nd choice - she has a nice udder and milks well for a long lactation, since she wants a doeling to milk.  
She insisted, no, I want Derri for my second choice.  

I pointed out that Foxy and Derri could both have UNspotted offspring, and that 'no spots' wasn't a legitimate reason for not buying a kid when they arrive, her reservation would be lost.

She still chose Derri as a back up.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 2, 2011)

Kim- anyone tackling the freakish, multi-teated boer situation with the level of commitment that you are gets a little leeway with the color thing in my book.  The point is- you're not going to compromise on your main objectives just to get that spotted baby.


----------



## Squirrelgirl88 (Oct 2, 2011)

I will admit that when I started this thread - and opened a can of worms - that I was thinking only of the color aspect. I guess because I won't be entering any shows, I didn't think about the other factors. 

I don't own registered dogs. I don't get into all of the breed hype, breed standards etc. I want a good dog that will bark when someone is at the door, and not eat my shoes. Why should I care if they are over height, or don't have the correct body shape/color?

I carried that attitude over to the goats and that was not the right thing to do. I bought pure bred registered goats and since I intend to sell any offspring as auch, then I need to take responsibility for maintaining breed standards regardless of the color or spots. Thank you nsmithurmond for the "tough love" post. I hit hard and that is what I needed. 

I have found the Dam's breeder and have her pedigree as well as some other information. She had several half sisters that were shown and won. I'm still trying to find out about the Sire. AGS doesn't list the herd owners on their website like ADGA does.

I promise to research before buying a herd sire and make the decision based on his lineage, not his looks. We may only be using our goats for our family's milk needs, but I have to think about any offspring that will be sold.


----------



## helmstead (Oct 2, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I will admit that I am breeding for color - with boers.  BUT I am also trying to improve the colored boers, the teat structure and size..
> Some breeders will breed any 2 colored goats and sell the offspring for big $, even if they're a truly inferior animal.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 2, 2011)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> I don't own registered dogs. I don't get into all of the breed hype, breed standards etc. I want a good dog that will bark when someone is at the door, and not eat my shoes. Why should I care if they are over height, or don't have the correct body shape/color?


Form and function go hand in hand.  I think if you give it some consideration that it would also be important to you that your favorite mutt dog be healthy, not prone to trips to the vet for frequent illness, not difficult to keep in good flesh, etc.  You probably don't want a dog that has the prettiest color but costs you a fortune to maintain.  If it was simply a pet goat I was after then ease of keeping, hardiness, parasite resistance, not prone to udder injury because of poor attachment, ability to kid without needing assistance due to structural defects, etc would be at the top of my list.  And breeding a goat like that is a tall order whether color is on the top of the list or not on the list at all.  Like Kim pointed out- it's not to say it can't be on your radar, simply that it can't be the first priority at the expense of others.


----------



## kstaven (Oct 2, 2011)




----------



## spanish goatee guy (Oct 6, 2011)

ihave a strain of spanish goats that are a coco chocolate color , most spanish goats from TX are black some are multi, any way ibred my nigerian dwarf nanny to my red coco spanish buck and he came out just like his daddy coco , and most of his offspring,come out with his colors and his blue eyes , even when bred to non spanish , ive had white spotted nannys bred to him and they too come out solid coco or black.


----------



## RareBreedFancier (Oct 6, 2011)

Just curious, since it's a color discussion and I know many of you have Nubian x Boers, which color pattern is dominant in the first cross? Do you get Nubian looking coats or the colored head and white body of the Boer or a mix of both? I'd prefer the Nubian color pattern so I can look at registering them as section D and grade up a my milkers but I'll be milking and culling the same regardless of color I get.


----------



## Roll farms (Oct 7, 2011)

If a traditional red headed buck is used, I'd guesstimate about 75% of the kids we've had that were boer x Nub came out white w/ a red or lt. brown head.


----------



## RareBreedFancier (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks Rolls.  The traditional red headed Boers are the only kind available here I believe, certainly the only kind I've seen that were pure. I like the idea of the pretty colored ones you have but I think they be a 'DIY' project here. One of the reasons I'm thinking about this cross.  Pretty milkers and pretty wethers for pets and the freezer. I like the idea.


----------

