# Daggone it...urinary calculi



## cmjust0

Went out to top off our little bucks' water tub last night and noticed the boer/nubi cross standing stretched, straining a bit to pee...but just dribbling.  The only thing I could think to do for him was drench with apple cider vinegar and wait until the vet's office opened.

He made it through the night, and his dribbles were a little more productive this morning...but he was hurting.  I got him to the vet, they did an ultrasound and said his bladder was pretty full and that there was some kind of 'mass' echoing...  Could be cells (infection), could be tissue (fibrin), or it could be calculi.  Gave him a shot of pain med and a tranq to get him to keep still.

The tranq actually did him some good...once he calmed down a little, he actually let loose an honest to goodness stream and relieved himself quite well..  Knowing he still wasn't out of the woods, the vet advised that we flip him up on his rump and 'externalize the penis' for a look.

So, out it came.  Sure enough, the 'pizzle' was clogged...urinary calculi.  Vet clipped the pizzle off and proceeded to do a backflush w/ a small catheter and a saline/lidocaine solution.  Emptied about 60ccs into his bladder.  Vet then went back inside for a little bit of quick research and returned with a saline/vinegar solution...backflushed again with about 60cc of that, right into the bladder

As you might imagine, the goat is none to happy by this point.

Ugh..  He's still at the vet right now.  They were planning to drench him with ammonia chloride -- yikes..burny..but oh well...little other choice -- and I happened to run across a local stash of something called "Acid-Pack 4-way 2X"..  If he lives till this afternoon, we're going to try drenching him with a teaspoon of that in 60cc of water 3x daily.  

IF he lives.

I always though urinary calculi were "stones" -- like kidney stones -- where once you got the stone out, you were fine.

Not the case..

A better name for this would be "bladder sand."  You might clear what's blocking him right now, but there's still a bunch waiting to come down...

Now, here's the really scary part:

He was on a feed formulated specially for goats, mixed 2:1 Calcium to Phosphorus and it has added ammonia chloride to prevent this very thing from happening..............

I think I just fed too much of it...  I think this guy got used to two servings a day and I think he just sorta said "screw the grazing and browsing...we'll just wait on the next tub of feed!" -- and I didn't notice.

Anyway...wish us luck.  We're going to try our level best to bring him back around.


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## Farmer Kitty

Good luck.


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## cmjust0

Thanks...

I just got a call from the feedmill...they have the "Acid Pack 4-Way 2X" ready to pick up..

I don't have time to go into it right now, but suffice it to say that I've somehow managed to mobilize two multi-national corporations so far, and they've gone well above, beyond, and totally out of their way just to get my little goat about $50 worth of product to maybe save his life -- and it all happened within the span of about 2 hours.  And it was unbelievably _easy_...everybody involved actually seemed really eager to help the little guy!

Alltech Biotechnology Corporation, ltd.  -- 
Hallway Feeds, Inc.  -- 

Boggles the mind...


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## cmjust0

Picked him up yesterday from the vet...showed the "Acid Pack 4-Way 2X" to the vet and he couldn't advise one way or ther other.  He did, however, manage to find a tub of water soluble ammonium chloride and drenched him with that..  He advised that I continue that for the next three days.

Anyhow, he was still alive and kicking this morning.  Seemed to be peeing like normal, too.  I was supposed to give him some Acepromazine and a shot of Ketofen, but he only got the Ketofen...most of the Ace wound up being a yellow spot in his hair, since he jerked just as I was pushing the plunger.  I got a tiny bit in him, but that was really aggravating.  I think Ace is what made him pee yesterday and I debated on giving him the other syringe....I wish I had, but this morning it made more sense to reserve it just in case he spasmed again..  Now I wish I'd just given the other one and called the vet for more...or something, I dunno.

Man...I really, really dread drenching him with ammonium chloride this evening.  I know it burns their throat and is really rough on their lungs and sinuses..  

Oh well...gotta do what I gotta do, I guess.


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## Farmer Kitty

I'm glad he's doing better. Yes, sometimes the treatments are not pleasant but, need to be done.


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## helmstead

Ask your vet to order Uri Care tablets.  You can bolus these in tablet form to avoid the liquid drench...altho I disagree that it burns - if it did, they wouldn't be willing to just eat a bolus ball of the crushed tablets out of my hand twice a year!  Perhaps the stuff you're getting your hands on is different than what I have used?


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## cmjust0

I looked up the Uri Care...appears to be some type of herbal supplement.  

Ammonium Chloride, on the other hand, is ROUGH...  It's basically water-soluble ammonia...ya know, that stuff that burns your nose and throat when you clean out the stalls?  It's also an 'irritant to gastric mucosa,' which basically means it burns your guts if ingested...  All the literature on urinary calculi calls ammonium chloride drenching a "desperation treatment," meaning that if the goat's gonna die anyway.....why not give it a try?

Oh, and if I accidentally get it in his lungs....  

Needless to say, I'm not at all looking forward to this evening.

But, again....he's peeing OK for now, so I can't complain _too_ much.


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## helmstead

Sorry I had to go grab my bottle as I spelled it wrong - it is _UriKare_ made by AmVet and it IS AC...and AC is not IMO any kind of 'drastic treatment' and has had absolutely no ill effect on any of my goats, or fellow producer's goats that I'm aware of.

It is salt of ammonia, used for it's acidic qualities and is even used in human medicine.


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## cmjust0

By golly...now THAT'S helpful!

The vet mentioned some kind of tablet they used to try for cats with struvite stones, but said they didn't really work for cats because they had to be given with every meal...and cats eat like 10x a day.    Anyway, he said he didn't think he could get it anymore.

Here's the kicker...the animal sciences headquarters of Neogen, the company that makes UriKare, is literally on my way home from work!  In fact, the A/C powder tub I got was made by NeoGen..  I may just call the vet and see what he thinks.

Thanks very much!

ETA:  I just noticed you said it was made by AmVet...the site I found it on listed it as NeoGen, then it said "formerly an AmVet product..."  Betcha that's why the vet didn't think he could still get it!


ETA (again):

Well, maybe that won't work afterall..  According to some literature from Texas A&M, the dosage for a goat is somewhere around 250mg per kg of bodyweight..  This guy weighs probably a little over 20kg, which means he needs somewhere around 5000mg/day of AC..  At 400mg/tablet of the UriKare 400, he'd need to eat about 12.5 tablets a day to be helpful.  I guess it could be done, but the UriKare page recommends powder for anything over 40lbs...he's probably closer to 50.

I'm going to have to look more closely at the tub of AC I got...they stuck a big vet's office label over the front, and the label may very well be concealing a "UriKare" label...afterall, it did come from NeoGen.  All I really knew was that it was Ammonia Chloride, and that the vet said "he didn't like it very much."  

On the bright side...we have a cat with struvite problems.  Maybe I'll cram a few UriKares down her gullet one day.  

ETA (one more time  )

Ok, so...no, my tub is 99.5% pure ammonia chloride...not UriKare.  And I remembered that the vet said 6g/day, not five...so they're using a bit higher dosage.  The UriKare 400 powder makes 1600mg of AC per teaspoon..  So...two teaspoons drenched twice a day would actually be about 400mg too much (which would probably only account for what he spits back out, etc)..

Two teaspoons of powder fills a 10cc syringe...  That's a lot of powder..  Would require probably a 30cc drench...

The straight AC, on the other hand, is a 3cc syringe full of powder, once a day, with just enough liquid to mix it..._maybe_ 20cc..

So...lots of less-irritating liquid twice a day, or a little bit of really rough liquid once a day.....tough call.

Why does everything have to be such a PITA?  

Again, thanks very much...I might get some UriKare to keep on hand, just in case I have a smaller kid go down with this one day..


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## cmjust0

Well, the little guy's still doing well so far today.  Peeing like a racehorse whenever and wherever he wants, so that's good.  He actually seems to be peeing a bit more than usual, though I'm not entirely sure what to make of that.  

I figure that could either be due to the fact that he had his urethra manipulated six ways from Sunday and was catheterized several times, making him a little sore "down there" and less willing to hold it...or perhaps it could be the AC drench making him want to drink more than usual.  Pure speculation, either way.  

The bottom line for me is that his urinations are now frequent, start quickly and easily with no apparent straining, are nice and clear to pale yellow, and seem to flow quite nicely.  I can't ask for much more than that right now.

The ammonium chloride drench wasn't nearly as horrific as I thought it was going to be, either.  The powder is 99.5% pure AC, and I had it in my head that it was going to be super strong and really caustic...nah.  Mixing 6g of AC powder with a mere 20cc of water yielded a crystal clear, odorless solution.  Once the drench gun was behind his teeth and I started squeezing, he actually drank it right down without too much resistence at all.

Of course, he foamed a bit at the mouth and slung a little snot when it was over...but then he went right back to his old self.

Vet said he should get another drenching today and again tomorrow, but I'm going to call and ask if I could continue for an extra three days to make a solid week of treatment..  Texas A&M recommends a week or more to help ensure there's no blockage from leftovers of the 'batch' of stones which caused the first round...so if the vet OKs it, that's what I'll do.

I know there's such a thing as Ammonia poisoning, though, so if the vet says no....I guess I'll just be nervous for a few days.

Once the drenching stops, though, I'll be adding Acid Pack 4-way 2X to the bucks' water to bring the pH down as a preventative measure.  Hopefully that will prevent us from seeing this again.

Man...I never, ever wanna see this again.


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## ksalvagno

Glad to hear your goat is doing better. I hate it when any of my animals are sick!


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## Roll farms

One of our bucks got UC on a Friday night several years ago.  My vet was out of town, no others were interested in helping, so I got online, read as much as I could in a short time (he was nearly dead by this point) and my dh and I plopped him on his rump, got him to extend the pizzle, cut it off, and drenched him w/ Fruit Fresh, of all things.  
(Some site I researched at that time suggested it in a pinch.)
4 yrs later he's still doing the buck job for me, peeing fine, and gets AC sprinkled on his feed daily...as do our other 4 bucks.
Am I right?  Dunno.  
Is it working?  So far.


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## cmjust0

Well, the little guy was doing really well until Saturday afternoon, but he plugged up again.  I had reserved a 0.2cc syringe of Acepromazine, so he got that and 4 gelcaps of Ibuprofen (anti-inflammatory) emptied into 20ccs of water..   He got Ammonium Chloride, as well..  No help...just dribbly.

I drenched him again with Ammonium Chloride late that night, though I was beginning to get concerned about ammonia toxicity..  Didn't feel like I had a choice, though..  A friend happened to have something akin to Ace, though we weren't entirely sure of the dosage nor if it would work.  It was pretty much a desperation attempt, so I shot him with a scant 1mg of it...I won't say what it was, but he stood there high as a kite and drooled for about 15min afterward.  He got a good night's sleep, too.

By mid-morning Sunday (we were up 'till 4am, didn't rise till after 11am), he was dribbling much faster.  When he strained, he could get a pretty decent stream going for a second or two.  He'd do that four or five times over the course of a minute or so until it was visibly less productive, then go back to eating like he felt fine.  He was obviously emptying his bladder -- with difficulty --  but that was a HUGE improvement.  That morning, he got more Ibuprofen (3rd dose of 4 caps, I think) and I drenched him with 1tsp Acid Pack 4-Way 2X in about 60ccs of water.

He spent the rest of the day just kinda lounging...eating hay, laying down with a cud.  Didn't seem to be hurting at all.  He got another tsp of Acid Pack last night and we saw him do the dribble/strain/stream thing again, but the drips were getting even faster and the stream was more persistent.  Again, he we saw that he was able to empty his bladder.

When I got up this morning, he was already out and about and didn't seem to be in pain.  I hit him with Acid Pack again before I left for work.  Didn't see him pee, but didn't see him strain either...tells me he's not full, which is good.

My wife asked how long I was going to drench him...my response was "Until he either dies or gets better."

We'll see which comes first.  

btw...I think I know why he plugged up Saturday:  we had a cool snap..  I think he'd been drinking copious amounts of water through the week, and I think that kept everything rolling.  On Saturday, however, temps barely hit 70 and they hardly touched their (clean, frequently changed) water...BAM...plugged up.

Dang fickle weather..


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## cmjust0

He was about the same last night..  

Stretch...dribble...strain...make a stream...dribble...strain...make a stream...dribble...repeat until bladder is empty and goat is comfortable enough to find something else to do with his time.  Takes maybe a minute or so..

My wife drenched him yesterday at 4pm and I hit him again at midnight and then at 8am this morning.  I got him with some more ibuprofen last night, too..  My wife will be hitting him again at 4pm today, and I'll probably continue 3x/day acid drench and 1x/day ibuprofen until he either gets better or dies.

Something of interest...I was reading up on ammonia toxicity, and apparently one of the early symptoms is muscle tremors.  The little guy laid down and trembled a bit after the very last dose of Ammonium Chloride we gave him Saturday night-- which made 2 doses in a day.  At the time, we didn't know why he was doing that.

Now we do.  :/

Needless to say, I'm glad I found the Acid Pack..  I thought I was being a little overly cautious in switching him to the Acid Pack from the Ammonium after only seven doses, but now I'm thinking I nipped a case of toxicity in the bud.

Since we have both Acid Pack and A/C, I may even alternate if this goes on long enough..

Anyway...bottom line...he actually seems fairly normal..  Happy, even..  He yells for hay and comes over to be loved on..  He strains and carries on to pee, sure, but he doesn't really seem to be in the kind of constant, searing pain and discomfort you would expect from a condition like UC..  It's hard to guage, but his dribble drips seem to be more frequent and his streams may be getting longer in duration...which would be excellent.

All in all, we're still hopeful.


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## TxMom

Wow, you're doing a great job taking care of him.  I've been worried about my wethers and UC.  I don't see AC listed as an ingredient in their food or their minerals, even though they're both for goats.  I need to find some, at least to have on hand in case of emergency.


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## ksalvagno

I hope your little guy continues to improve. Good Luck with him!


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## cmjust0

TxMom said:
			
		

> Wow, you're doing a great job taking care of him.  I've been worried about my wethers and UC.  I don't see AC listed as an ingredient in their food or their minerals, even though they're both for goats.  I need to find some, at least to have on hand in case of emergency.


Neogen  makes the AC I have (link is PDF) ..  It's water soluble and 6g (3cc's, volumetrically) will dissolve clear in a scant 20cc's of water.  No odor, no fumes..  The dosage we were running was somewhere around 300mg/kg of bodyweight, 1x/daily.  Your vet can get it for you....maybe even your feedstore, but I'm not sure.

The Acid Pack 4-Way 2X is made by Alltech..  Your feedstore should definitely be able to get this for you, no 'script required.  The Acid Pack is typically used as a preventative, to acidify their water.  If and when this little buck pulls through, we'll be doing that for sure.

As for your feed...would probably be a really good idea to switch your wethers to something that has a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio with added ammonium chloride..  As you can see from my experience, though, even that's not a guarantee...my feed was good feed.

My mistake was not noticing that this guy was taking the lion's share of the feed and skimping on browsing, grazing, and hay, so watch your wethers closely even after switching to a safer grain...if you have one or two that are really hogging it and taking it easy while the others forage or eat hay, you could still have a problem.

Best of luck to you!


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## cmjust0

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I hope your little guy continues to improve. Good Luck with him!


Thanks very much!


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## cmjust0

The U/C diary continues...

Had a really experienced herdsman out at the house yesterday for something totally unrelated.  He's been keeping up with the little U/C buckling's saga, so we stood and talked and watched the little guy for a minute.

This time when he pee'd, it was....fastdrip.. strain.. stream.. stream.. strain.. stream.. stream.. repeat until it basically faded off in drips..  If not for the intermittant straining and somewhat weakened stream, you'd think he was just flat out whizzing..  He had a sustained stream going for probably 15-20sec at one point..

I looked at my buddy and noted the improvement even since yesterday...my buddy was surprised, never having personally known anyone with much luck saving a U/C buck -- especially not one that was _twice_ reduced to a very scant drip..

I believe his words were "Dang, man...he very well could make it!"


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## cmjust0

Rainy and cool all day yesterday...  Like most goats, my little guys just kinda hung out in their hutch/mini-shed all day.  I didn't think much of it until I went out last night and found the little U/C guy standing humped up with his head low, trembling and twitching, acting a little "drunk," looking back toward his belly occasionally..

I had another dose of Acid Pack in my hand, but I dumped that right away.  He was in no shape for having more acid dumped down his throat.

I studied on him for a minute, just trying to get a best guess as to what it was..  First thought was...maybe he finally burst his bladder.  Second thought was...toxicity to something in the Acid Pack..  

My wife said she saw him pee at 5pm, though, and he hadn't had much water all day.  He had pee on his sheath, too, so I knew he was still moving fluid..  I ruled out a busted bladder.  (we saw him grunt out a decent little pee later to make me even more sure that the bladder was still intact...)

Gotta be toxicity, I thought...  If that were the case, there's nothing much to do except let it run its course and hope it doesn't kill him..

I was just about to leave him be and then it occurred to me...acid drench...not much water...not much activity...ACIDOSIS.

I looked up the symptoms:  hunched stance, head low, drunken behavior, muscle tremors, and a few other things..  

I went back in the house and put about 8tsp of baking powder in about 100cc's of water...enough to be fairly thick...and managed to get about 70cc's down his throat before he decided he'd rather choke to death than take anymore.  I'm usually pretty good at getting liquid in a goat, but he was DONE with that.  Almost choked him out twice, so I was done too..

We left him alone for a few minutes and when we came back...no more twitching.  Head was up..  He was still obviously feeling pretty blah, but he seemed better, and I didn't necessarily expect it to work miracles.  I actually considered trying to put even more baking soda down him, but I knew he wouldn't take it.  By this point it's about 2:15am anyway...I had to get up in a few short hours, so I thought I'd just re-evaluate him in the morning.  

Woke up early enough to treat him with...whatever, I dunno...again this morning..  When I looked out the window, he was out of his hutch and seemed to be acting fairly normal..  I smiled and went back to bed for a while, thinking that if he were going down with acidosis, he wouldn't probably be out walking around.

When I got back up, he was back in his hutch looking a little humped up again!  Grrrrr..  So, I got ready for work, went out to check, and he was laying down...  More grrrrrr..  He didn't necessarily look rough, though...just sorta looking up at me like "What?  Here to waterboard me again, jerkface?"  

I had thrown some hay, so I literally dragged him out to it just to see if he was interested..  If he wasn't, I was gonna hit him again with baking powder.  

He started eating hay, though..  At this point, I don't know up from down but...whatever...if you're ok enough to eat hay, I'm going to work.  

Then I noticed that he had blood and urine on his sheath...but it couldn't possibly be a burst bladder because we'd seen him pee himself empty late last night.

At this point, I become unsure if it was even acidosis at all...  Almost everything fit, it made perfect sense at the time, and I'm glad I hit him with Baking Soda..no harm in it, anyway, because he didn't take nearly enough to make him alkaline to the point of obstructing his urine flow or anything like that..  But some other symptoms of acidosis are diarrhea and bloat, and there was no evidence of diarrhea and I _know_ he never bloated..

So now I'm kinda wondering now if what we thought was acidosis was actually a big UC stone on the move....or if it actually was toxicity..  

Who knows...I don't...all I know is that he's had a lot of crap shoved down this throat over the last 10 or 11 days, and he's got every right to not be feeling the best ever..  I also know he had some pee -- albeit bloody -- on his sheath, so he's still moving urine.  And I left him eating hay.

Good enough for me...for now, anyway.  

I'll have him off the acid for 24hrs, at least...if he gets better and the daggone sun comes back out tomorrow (sun = water intake) I'll try it again.  If he trembles again, I may switch back to ammonium chloride and see what happens..  If he can't tolerate that either...I'm pretty much out of options except to slightly -- ever so slightly -- acidify his water and hope he doesn't plug up again.


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## Farmer Kitty

Oh, man, the poor little guy. It just keeps going doesn't it. 

With the blood, could he have an infection in the tract somewhere? Kidneys, bladder, etc. I know in people and cattle one can get blood with these type of infections so, I'm throwing it out there for you to consider. 

You've been through so much with him. I'm hoping and praying he makes it!


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## m.holloway

prayers and hope is all I can send. Hope is gets better soon for ya.


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## cmjust0

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> Oh, man, the poor little guy. It just keeps going doesn't it.


Lucky for us, he seems to have a pretty hard bark on him..  Lots of goats would have laid down by now, but he keeps on truckin'.



			
				FK said:
			
		

> With the blood, could he have an infection in the tract somewhere? Kidneys, bladder, etc. I know in people and cattle one can get blood with these type of infections so, I'm throwing it out there for you to consider.


When he first started all this Sunday before last, I hit him with about 2.5ml of Bio-Mycin, hoping that's all it was.  At the vet the next day, we took off his pizzle and the vet later hit him with Penicillin..  I hit him with Bio-Mycin for three days after that.

He's had blood occasionally, and with that much "activity" in his bladder/urethra...not entirely surprising, I guess.  There's a lot going on down there.

If he keeps bleeding, though, I may well do another round of Bio-Mycin just to be on the safe side.





			
				FK said:
			
		

> You've been through so much with him. I'm hoping and praying he makes it!





			
				m.holloway said:
			
		

> prayers and hope is all I can send. Hope is gets better soon for ya


Thanks, everybody..


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## Farmer Kitty

> If he keeps bleeding, though, I may well do another round of Bio-Mycin just to be on the safe side.


Yeah, he could have developed since with all that is going on. Especially with not being able to empty correctly.


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## cmjust0

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> If he keeps bleeding, though, I may well do another round of Bio-Mycin just to be on the safe side.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, he could have developed since with all that is going on. *Especially with not being able to empty correctly*.
Click to expand...

Good point..  I'll probably hit him with Bio-Mycin this evening, just in case.


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## cmjust0

Wife just called...said he was back to dribbly with no defined stream.  Looked to be in a fair amount of discomfort, also..  I managed to wrangle up .3cc of Acepromazine, which is waiting at the vet's office; she's running to grab that now.  Ace did the trick once before, and is actually part of Texas A&M's recommended therapy along with anti-inflammatory meds and ammonium chloride drenches.  She already drenched him with the contents of 5 advil gelcaps a little while ago, so that may help.  Plus, he'll almost certainly get an ammonium chloride drench tonight, acidosis or not...which, I'm thinking it's not because he never scoured nor bloated.

Who knows...maybe this is the last big chunk, right?  Maybe he'll be home free after he gets past this little hump, right?  :/

Doubt it, but...it could happen.

We're just trying to keep up hope for now.  Wife didn't seem too keen on her first ever shot being an IM of Ace at such a crucial juncture, but she does what needs doing when it comes to the animals.  



ps...getting a little tired of having to end every post on this subject with a   :/


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## Farmer Kitty




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## cmjust0

Back to the vet this morning..  There's good news, and there's bad news.

The good news is that according to the ultrasound, the little guy's bladder is intact and totally clear of urinary calculi.  The Ammonium Chloride/Acid Pack drenches apparently worked well.

The bad news is his penis is badly, badly inflamed.  _That's_ why the urine isn't flowing like it should.  We did see him appear to empty his bladder at the vet's office (after Ace and a moderately successful attempt to catheterize with .05% lidocaine solution), so that's good.  

They had been planning to do surgery and put in a foley catheter up until that point..  Since he did urinate and relieved some pressure, though, they decided to try a drug -- can't think of the name, but I'll ask again and lock it in my brain -- that's supposed to relax the muscles of the GI tract..  That, plus something stout for inflammation, plus something for pain, plus penicillin in case we're looking at an infection..  Hopefully, all that will be enough to cause him to stop straining, and if he stops straining, we're hopeful that the swelling will go down and that all will end up well.  

All I know is that, after he urinated, he seemed really bright and went straight over to a little pile of leftover hay in the vet's stall and commenced to chowing down like there wasn't a thing in the world wrong with him..

We're still hopeful that he'll make it out alright.......who knows.  The vet didn't even seem to have a good idea as to how it all would turn out, and I trust this vet implicitly..  I guess it could go either way, but again...hopeful.

Here's what really sucks, though...had I known that his bladder was clear, I would have stopped the AC/Acid Pack drenches.  After seeing the ultrasound, I suspect it's probably been clear for days now and that I've been treating the wrong thing....inflammation of the penis looks exactly like the original urinary calculi symptoms and it faded right in as the calculi disappeared, so there was no reason for me to suspect anything had changed before seeing the ultrasound..  Even the vet was puzzled for a second..

Oh well..  I guess even if my several hundred dollar investment doesn't save this little guy, I feel like it will at least serve to educate and perhaps yield a better course of action for UC for me and all the folks I know raising goats in this area..  Next time I'll know to ask for plenty of Ace, a longer course of anti-inflammatories, whatever the GI relaxer is, and an appointment for another ultrasound no later than 3 days after the first visit to evaluate whether to keep drenching with ammonium chloride/acid pack..

Still...I just hope our poor little guinea pig of a goat makes it.  

So, there we are..  Nothing more to say, so it much be time for the perfunctory


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## Farmer Kitty

Poor little guy. From one thing to the next.  Hope he gets better!


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## TxMom

I really hope he gets better...and I'm glad you've posted all the updates, we've all learned a lot from your little guinea pig


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## ksalvagno

I sure hope your little guy does well. Sometimes I just hate learning something new. Last year I had lots of opportunities to learn new things and saw one heck of a lot of the vet.   Needless to say, so far this year things have been quiet (knock on wood). I hope this is only new thing you learn this year.


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## cmjust0

Thanks, all..  

Speaking of learning something new...I looked at one of our adult Nubian does the other day and was like...dang...she's just FAT.  I dunno what happened, but she just went POOF..

She looks like a million bucks, don't get me wrong, but...suffice it to say that she's going on a diet, lest I have to learn about pregnancy toxemia this coming Spring.  

:/

It's always something, ain't it?!??


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## cmjust0

Went to the vet's office on Friday evening to speak with the vet..  The little goat was in a fair amount of pain again, and I could see a knot above his testicles...right where his hoosiwhatsit wraps underneath his body.  Plus, he had quite a protrusion just under his anus, where a doe's vajayjay would be.  Lots of swelling..

The vet didn't seem as concerned as I was about the amount of pain he seemed to be in...  The little guy would grunt and strain and make a tiny stream, but the vet seemed to think that wasn't too bad...  Not life threatening, I guess..  

All in all, on Friday, he got:  

Acepromazine IM
Penicillin IM
Baytril SQ
Ketofen IM
Dexamethasone IM
Penicillin again SQ
and then drenched with a drug called Dibenzyline, which is supposed to relax the urinary sphincter..

He's still living..  He got another 2.5cc's of Dex yesterday..  The Dex helps with the inflammation -- the knot above his testicles is all but gone, and the protrusion is decreased dramatically -- but it doesn't help _feel better_ like the Ketofen..  Without the pain relief from the Ketofen, he seems to just want to lay around -- doesn't eat, doesn't drink, doesn't try to urinate until he absolutely has to..  To me, that's not good.  I don't want him to go forever with a full bladder and then have to really grunt and cry out to get it moving..

I'm thinking today that I'm going to see if the vet will let me hit him with Dex and Ketofen together for a couple of days, then go to Ketofen alone for another several days..  

Problem is, we're risking damage to his kidneys and liver if we go too long like this..

I got him up for his daily 22ga stabbing this morning and was pleased to see him stretch and yawn like a normal little goat..  I gave him his penicillin and he fought me like a little devil...once again.  When that was done, he stretched out and pushed just a little...but got a stream going.  Nothing like the eyeball-popping, lip curling, fart-inducing grunting he was doing before, so he seems to be getting better..

More Dex...more ketofen (or banamine, whatever)...


----------



## ksalvagno

I sure hope your little guy does ok with all of this. It is so rough when you have a problem that takes a long time to cure. Good luck.


----------



## bheila

Oh my goodness, you must really love this guy  The things we'll do for our goaties


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## cmjust0

No real change last night..  Went home and found him laying down with a cud, but he didn't want to move around much.  He's just uncomfortable.  I hit him with another shot of Ketofen and bam...he's up and moving and eating hay and having a big ol' time.  

This morning, he was laying down with a cud again.  Even though the vet is a little worried to give him so much NSAID -- liver, kidneys, abomasal ulcers, etc -- I'm actually thinking he's not getting enough because it wears off within about 12hrs.  I might actually ask for .75cc's 2x/day till the end of the week, along with a dose or two of Dex.  Vet also said he'd give me famotidine (pepcid) injectible, just to be proactive about ulcers...kinda worries me, though, because I don't want to drop his overall pH...that's what got us here to begin with.  

Calling the vet back today...at this point, I think he'd do just about anything I asked him to do.

Little guy's still living, though...


----------



## ksalvagno

What about Sucralfate Tablets (we also call it Karafate)? They are tablets that you dissolve in water and give orally. For alpacas the dose is one tablet per 50 pounds (don't know what it would be for goats) twice a day for 14 days. Basically all it does is coat the stomach and put a "bandaid" over any ulcers to give them a chance to heal. I use it for alpacas and it works great. We use Gastroguard to change the ph in their stomach.


----------



## cmjust0

Well...crap.

My wife just called and said he wasn't too interested in hay when she brought some out..  He got up, strained to pee, walked around a bit, picked at the hay a little, then went and laid back down uncomfortably.

I think it's probably just pain since his last Ketofen was at about 7pm last night, but I'm probably going to start him on the famotidine injectible just in case..

Something's gotta give here..  The vet's supposed to call me back this evening, and I'm going to suggest:

Today, PM -- dex, ketofen, penicillin, famotidine
Tomorrow AM -- ketofen, penicillin
Tomorrow PM -- dex, ketofen, penicillin, famotidine
Thurs AM -- ketofen, penicillin
Thurs PM -- ketofen, maybe dex again, penicillin, famotidine
Fri AM -- ketofen, penicillin
Fri PM -- ketofen, penicillin, famotidine

And if he's not showing any improvement Saturday AM...he may go back to the vet.  I wonder if we can do an X-Ray to see if maybe, just maybe, there's one last big stone stuck in his urethra somewhere or something like that..  

Heck, I dunno..


----------



## Farmer Kitty

Poor little guy!


----------



## cmjust0

Just talked to the vet..  He's loading up 3 doses of Dex and 6cc's of Ketofen.  I'm going to hit him with the Dex three days in a row, and switch him to .5cc Ketofen 2x/day.  

My wife drenched him with dibenzyline just a few minutes ago, so we'll see if that helps or not..  

Vet thinks he should have responded by now..  Noted that we could be looking at a few of the larger stones remaining in the urethra, and even that if we manage to get those cleared, he may very well wind up with scar tissue that either A) makes it just as difficult to urinate as the stones themselves, or B) causes this to be a recurrent nightma...er, problem.

Frankly, things just aren't looking so good for the little guy at this point..  

Still hopeful, though..could still just be inflammation.  By no means does he have "the look," where you just kinda know it's time to let him go or send him on over to the other side.  I can't help but think he's shown too much will and resiliency for too daggone long to just up and kick off at this point.


----------



## cmjust0

When I got home last night, he seemed to have responded to the dibenzyline..  He was still hurty, but we saw him stretch out and get a thin but persistent stream going without too much trouble...it was actually the best we've seen out of him in more than a week.

Needless to say, we were pretty stoked!

I went ahead and hit him with about 0.6ccs of Ketofen, 2.5ccs of Dex, and about 2.5ccs of penicillin.  When I went to run some hay out there for them late last night, he literally RAN across the kid pen and practically attacked me for it.



I went out this morning and gave him about 0.3/0.4ccs Ketofen, another 2.5cc penicillin, and another drench with 7.5mg dibenzyline.  It was raining a bit, so he was laying in the shed/hutch when I went out..  Then he saw that I had hay and jumped right up..  I had to skewer and waterboard him before I laid the hay down, but in the meantime I saw him pee again....another low-ish effort/high-ish production whiz.  

So, he got his meds and promptly attacked the hay.

I haven't seen him this peppy in the morning since...jeez...I don't even know when.

I'm going to call the vet back today and get more dibenzyline..  I only have enough for one more dose, which he gets this evening..  I'm going to try to get enough to take him through the end of the week, if possible...they may not have enough...he gets 3 caplets 2x/day, which means he'll burn through in a week what would last a cat forever..  I don't think they keep too much of it on hand.

I'm also going to basically ignore the fact that he *seems* to be doing better (knock on wood) and hit him with at least one more shot of Dex -- I have two left -- and I'm going to put all 6ccs of Ketofen through him..  My fear is that if I don't get him to the point of effortless or near-effortless urination before stopping the meds, he may kick off more inflammation.

I don't wanna jinx anything, but I feel more positive today than yesterday...but more than that, I'm just glad to see the little guy acting like HE feels ok!


----------



## Mini-M Ranch

Sending you good vibes 

I have been following your story with rapt attention.  Everytime I see that you have posted again, I think, "Oh, I hope it's good news!"

Hopefully you are nearing the end of this crisis.

You're a good goat dad!


----------



## cmjust0

I was just reading another article about urinary calculi in goats, and it was talking about the shape of the 'sigmoid flexure,' the location of the bladder, etc..  Apparently, the bladder is up high in the back and the penis makes a pretty severe S bend at the sigmoid flexure...

No wonder the catheter wouldn't run all the way to the bladder!  I'm sure the vet knew this, but I sure didn't...  I actually thought we were in the bladder for the initial catherization, but we must not have been..  Oh well..  

For future reference...and in any future events (none, hopefully)...I think I may skip the catherization/backflush unless they're TOTALLY blocked..  Seems like the risk of rupturing the urethra is greater than the value of the backflush, considering that you really can't get into the bladder anyway..

Instead, I'd go straight for a hard knock of Acepromazine to really loosen things up, a pizzle-snip whether he needed it or not, a shot of Baytril, penicillin, and a big shot of Dexamethasone with some Ketofen to finish..  I'd follow that with ketofen @ about 1.5-1.7mg/kg twice a day, dibenzyline @ +/-15mg/100lbs twice a day, 2x/day penicillin @ 1mg/15lbs, and daily drenches of ammonium chloride @ 300mg/kg -- all for about a week..  I'd add Dex @ 1mg/20lbs probably every other day or so after the initial blockage, too...plus fairly regular ultrasounds (every 3 days, at least)  to monitor the progress of the dissolution of the calculi.

That way you're physically removing that last stricture, treating for pain and inflammation, preventing further inflammation, relaxing the sigmoid flexure, and dissolving the crystals -- and there's really nothing in all that's superduper expensive.

I know it wouldn't be successful all the time, but I really think a lot of bucks could be saved with the information that's come out of all the time and $$$ I've put into this little guy.  I hope so, anyway..

I haven't heard any updates from my wife today..  I feel pretty good about it, though..like he's probably pretty OK out there.  I'm by no means "cocky" about it, mind you...he could turn off bad, plug completely up, rupture his urethra or bladder, and wind up irretrievable at any moment, I know that...it's just that he seemed to be in rare form when I left him.  

Little goat's name is Frank, btw...dunno if I mentioned that.  He kept that newborn blue tint in his eyes for a long time, so we named him after ol' blue eyes...  

Go Frank, go!



Edited to revise my plan of attack...got to thinking about all that Dex and all that Ketoprofen and decided that was probably a surefire way to start battling a GI bleed in the middle of the UC war.


----------



## cmjust0

Little guy was doing pretty well yesterday evening when I got home.  Not too much effort, decent little stream.  

I didn't get to see him pee this morning, but he was out and about and came for hay.  He's looking a little rough around the edges at this point, and has lost a fair amount of condition...he's getting a lot of meds, though.  He's also had two or three shots of dex and has been on penicillin for a long time.  Dex really screws with their immune system..

I'm thinking he needs to be dewormed, could use some probios, maybe some b-complex, and probably needs some better quality hay..  I helped a buddy load a bunch of nice alfalfa a few weeks ago and he said he'd give me a few bales....might collect on that this evening.  

Other than that...not much to report.


----------



## cmjust0

Wife just called and said she had a chance to go visit the little guy..  Brought them out some hay and he came running over and attacked it, as he's been doing the last few days..  She watched and watched, but never saw him make any attempts to pee.  That's good, I think, because when he's full and blocked up, that's all he does.  She did see him drink some water, so he's clearly moving liquid.

Said she left him eating hay and went to get the mail, then came back and sat a little longer...just wanted to see him try to pee.  Instead, he decided he wanted to eat the mail.  

Seems to be doing pretty well.  

Ya know...It occurs to me that they need a big rock out there in their pen, or something like that..  Something to climb around on and play king of the mountain..  There's just nothing "interesting" in their lot, and I think that might do him some good...cheer him up, so to speak.

I think I'll see what I can scrounge up this evening, if it's not raining.


----------



## cmjust0

Went back to dribbling/straining again last night..  I'm just not sure what's going on anymore.  

Gave more ketofen, and went ahead with another shot of Dex..  Drenched him with ammonium chloride, too, just in case it's a remnant stone.  I'm out of dibenzyline, but there's more waiting at the vet's office.  That helped him last time.

I saw him get another tiny stream going again this morning, but I'm really starting to think this is a losing battle.  Can't keep him on meds forever, afterall..  What sucks so bad is that he was improving nicely, then BAM..

Still...part of me says he's come too far to go down now.  Just doesn't seem right.


----------



## cmjust0

No real change over the weekend..  He's still moving urine, but it's drippy.  I'm out of everything but dibenzyline..  No more Ketofen, no more Dex..  No more ideas..

Almost out of hope, too.  

He still eats...he's still active...  That's something, I guess.


----------



## Farmer Kitty




----------



## m.holloway

hang in there


----------



## cmjust0

Seems to be struggling more day by day without anti-inflammatory meds, but the meds didn't exactly seem to have him on the road to recovery either...  I think they were just keeping him in limbo...no better, no worse.  He can't stay on them forever..

Not very hopeful at this point.


----------



## Farmer Kitty

It's a hard situation.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch




----------



## cmjust0

No real changes, except that he seems to be persisting even without pain meds..  I suppose that's a teeny improvement, considering that if he went more than a few hours without pain meds before, he'd get really depressed and didn't want to eat or anything.

I'm going to call the vet today for one last thing...a round of Dexamethasone to be given for several days in a row..  I was hesitant to do that before because he was on so much NSAID, but he's not now..  So, I figure we can give a whole bunch of Dex a whirl and see what happens..

If that doesn't work, we've more or less decided that there's no sense in putting him down so long as he still eats and wants to be scratched and loved on..  If he grunts and strains and dribbles, but still eats hay and grazes and does other goat things...I'll let him be.  Heck...maybe he's just got some scar tissue in there that he'll grow out of.  Never know.

If, however, at any point he gets depressed and won't eat, or acts like he's in constant pain, I'll put him down.

We'll see.


----------



## FarmerChick

I feel for you.  I had 2 bucks do this to me.

Both I put down after  treatment on the farm with all I knew.   I would never take one of my goats to a vet.  I do this as a business and the money involved would outweigh the use for me, but I learned alot about your adventures at the vets office.  Interesting.

I know putting them down is never easy and I hope he makes it.  But good chance he will always have problems.  That is another reason I have to move forward when I farm animals.

Nothing "alive" is ever easy to farm.  I know and I hope the best for him.


----------



## cmjust0

First off, thanks.  I know you mean what you say, and I do appreciate the fact that you're pulling for him..  I really do.

That said, I hope you won't take the rest of this as an attack...it's not meant to be.  It's just something I feel like I need to get off my chest..

I know a lot of folks wouldn't take a goat to the vet, and I understand the economics of it all.  Bottom line, goats are cheap..  I could have knocked this little goat in the head the moment he started dribbling, thereby saving myself the vet bills and only have been out the value of the goat...which would be maybe $50.  I even could have put him in the freezer and recovered that..

Problem is, that "too cheap to save" attitude only contributes to the health problems and difficulty in raising goats. 

These days, when a goat starts going south with something that can't be treated cheaply on the farm using whatever techniques have already been devised, it's pretty much dead.  People only know to do what they've been doing for decades, and if that doesn't work...oh well.  Few people will call a vet for a $50 goat. 

Not only is that kind of a shame for the goat, but it perpetuates the same problem on to the _next_ goat because nothing was learned..  New techniques are not -- and may never be -- forthcoming, because it's basically a given that nobody's willing to spend very much money to keep a goat alive.  

I mean...why would anyone waste their talent for veterinary medicine trying to figure out ways to save goats from particular illnesses when "goat economics" dictate that nobody's going to call and ask for help anyhow?  It's futile...a vet would do well to learn about cattle or horses or dogs instead, if they want to earn a living.  

The irony, of course, is that they'll probably be criticized by goat people who bemoan the fact that so few vets knows how to treat a goat..  

I'd like to see those attitudes change, personally..  I'd like to see it such that goat owners are expected to afford their animals the level of care that's afforded, say, to cattle or horses..  I'd like to see things change to the point refusing to provide veterinary care for goats is frowned upon, and those who refuse to do it are not enabled to continue raising (and killing) goats....instead of simply being looked at as smart business people who are just doing what they have to do to keep up the bottom line.

Reason being, if that paradigm shift came to pass, there would be a lot fewer people raising fewer, healthier, higher quality goats..   If there were fewer people raising fewer and better goats, goats would command more money.  If goats were worth more money, putting them under the care of a qualified veterinarian would be more easily justified..  If veterinary care for goats were more common, more veterinarians would have experience with goats..  If more vets had experience with goats, their ability to care for goats and to be innovative with treatments would be enhanced dramatically..  As new treatments became available, raising goats would get easier, and less goats would have to die.

All in all, it would be an _upward_ spiral for all involved...  

I can't say that I expect it to ever happen, but I certainly wish that it would..  That said, I feel like I'm doing my part..and, I'm learning...and my vet is learning..and maybe some folks here are learning..

If nothing else good comes from my little buck's plight, at least I'll have that.  

Ok...I feel better now.


----------



## lilhill

Thank you for saying that so eloquently.


----------



## FarmerChick

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> First off, thanks.  I know you mean what you say, and I do appreciate the fact that you're pulling for him..  I really do.
> 
> That said, I hope you won't take the rest of this as an attack...it's not meant to be.  It's just something I feel like I need to get off my chest..
> 
> I know a lot of folks wouldn't take a goat to the vet, and I understand the economics of it all.  Bottom line, goats are cheap..  I could have knocked this little goat in the head the moment he started dribbling, thereby saving myself the vet bills and only have been out the value of the goat...which would be maybe $50.  I even could have put him in the freezer and recovered that..
> 
> Problem is, that "too cheap to save" attitude only contributes to the health problems and difficulty in raising goats.
> 
> These days, when a goat starts going south with something that can't be treated cheaply on the farm using whatever techniques have already been devised, it's pretty much dead.  People only know to do what they've been doing for decades, and if that doesn't work...oh well.  Few people will call a vet for a $50 goat.
> 
> Not only is that kind of a shame for the goat, but it perpetuates the same problem on to the _next_ goat because nothing was learned..  New techniques are not -- and may never be -- forthcoming, because it's basically a given that nobody's willing to spend very much money to keep a goat alive.
> 
> I mean...why would anyone waste their talent for veterinary medicine trying to figure out ways to save goats from particular illnesses when "goat economics" dictate that nobody's going to call and ask for help anyhow?  It's futile...a vet would do well to learn about cattle or horses or dogs instead, if they want to earn a living.
> 
> The irony, of course, is that they'll probably be criticized by goat people who bemoan the fact that so few vets knows how to treat a goat..
> 
> I'd like to see those attitudes change, personally..  I'd like to see it such that goat owners are expected to afford their animals the level of care that's afforded, say, to cattle or horses..  I'd like to see things change to the point refusing to provide veterinary care for goats is frowned upon, and those who refuse to do it are not enabled to continue raising (and killing) goats....instead of simply being looked at as smart business people who are just doing what they have to do to keep up the bottom line.
> 
> Reason being, if that paradigm shift came to pass, there would be a lot fewer people raising fewer, healthier, higher quality goats..   If there were fewer people raising fewer and better goats, goats would command more money.  If goats were worth more money, putting them under the care of a qualified veterinarian would be more easily justified..  If veterinary care for goats were more common, more veterinarians would have experience with goats..  If more vets had experience with goats, their ability to care for goats and to be innovative with treatments would be enhanced dramatically..  As new treatments became available, raising goats would get easier, and less goats would have to die.
> 
> All in all, it would be an _upward_ spiral for all involved...
> 
> I can't say that I expect it to ever happen, but I certainly wish that it would..  That said, I feel like I'm doing my part..and, I'm learning...and my vet is learning..and maybe some folks here are learning..
> 
> If nothing else good comes from my little buck's plight, at least I'll have that.
> 
> Ok...I feel better now.


LOL I won't take it as an attack.  Views from all sides are always a good debate.

For me, the first line of defense is the owner.  You either are a farmer or not if you own livestock, and a responsible owner knows their livestocks ailments and cures.   So  most of it can be vetted at home easily.

Second I am lucky that my large animal vet does goats.  I had him here only once in the beginning 10 years ago when I had a sick preggo doe.  She died but I learned the problem, what to look for and never had another one pass away from that.

And I can call and get meds and shots and all if needed from him.  Describe the problem and pick up meds.  So again, I have a vet that helps and doesn't hinder.  Keeps costs down while getting best for the animal.   This is rare that I use this service cause healthy maintenance of livestock means less nasty problems.  BUT remember I am a farmer that researched all the signs of problems to look for, I can do my own fecals, I know what bottlejaw looks like when most think a goat might have been bitten by a snake and all the other  mistakes and no knowledge that people have on goats.   So for me to say in general, you have an animal, if you want to save money know how to farm that animal inside and out.  That way you are as responsible as you can be and save money at the same time.

A business is a business.  My goats were worth considerably more than $50.  I don't have $50 goats....LOL---but don't get me wrong, a cheap or expensive goat should get the same care.  It would from me.

But what I can't handle is when backyard owners won't take the time to learn true info. on care and ailments and fast home remedies to save the life...don't look for the signs, don't have good feeding skills etc.  (not saying this about you at all---just in general)

So I say if you don't know what you are doing, hit the vet and spend.  If you do know how to handle problems, know the outcome of most ailments like this and what the future is for the animal etc....then that is responsible enough for me.

Goats are considered cheap because they are not a major food in this country.  If it was it would be right up there next to the ribeye and chicken if it was.    The few places you do find it is expensive per pound but I doubt it will ever be readily accepted as table fare for the masses in US.

I know this is a biggie question--take animals to vets or not, but I just mentioned in my post that I don't.  I never said you shouldn't...LOL

just my view on it.


----------



## cmjust0

FarmerChick said:
			
		

> For me, the first line of defense is the owner.  You either are a farmer or not if you own livestock, and a responsible owner knows their livestocks ailments and cures.   So  most of it can be vetted at home easily.


I understand that, but you have to consider that folks around here believe urinary calculi to be totally incurable.  One of the most experienced herdsmen in the state gave my goat 3 to 4 days to live...said he'd never seen one live more than a week after plugging up with UC..

That was about a month ago.

Without a doubt, he'd have been right if I'd only done what's normally done around here...which apparently means snipping the pizzle and maybe drenching with some apple cider vinegar..  That's it.  That's the only "cure" anybody knows of, and even that's not really expected to work...just a 'hail Mary.'

Things would have stayed that way, too, had I simply taken his experience as gospel and not gone to the vet...  As it happens, though, folks -- lots of folks -- are now aware that you absolutely must treat for inflammation right from the get go if you're to have any chance at all of saving the goat..  

Folks also know now that the "expensive" vet in town isn't that expensive on goats afterall..  I've seen a few jaws drop when I tell folks that an ultrasound, snipping the pizzle, two catheterizations, four syringes of Ace, four syringes of Ketofen, a whole day in the vet's stall under his care, a pound of ammonium chloride to take home, and a pretty good education on UC cost me all of $137 at the "expensive" vet..

Thing is...now that I've been through all this, it wouldn't have to be nearly so expensive next time around..  I mean, Dex is pretty cheap.  Lots of cattle people have Dex on hand.  I wouldn't probably have had to use so much NSAID had we started the Dex early, but we didn't know it would become so important...  If the Dex is started right away, Banamine would work as the NSAID instead of Ketofen, and lots of folks keep Banamine.  Ace helps relax the smooth muscles, which helps...lots of folks have a little stash of Ace.  Better perhaps than Ace, though, is dibenzyline...it relaxes the urinary tract specifically, and it's not terribly expensive..  You just have to know to ask for it..  Water soluble ammonium chloride isn't that expensive either, and we have a local source for it..

I dunno...I'd say a week's worth of the treatment with NSAIDs, Dex, and ammonium chloride should cost...what, maybe $20?  Pizzle snip is free, if you know how to do it...which I do, now that I helped the vet.  I believe I could even catheterize one, if I had to...though knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't recommend it.

That's my point; "cures" -- even "_on the farm_ cures" -- should evolve, but with everybody using the the same ol' timey remedies and being scared to death to spend a dime to give the vet an opportunity to hone his goat working skills...they don't.  

Anyway...I didn't mean to start a debate on it, per se.  I know a lot of folks are watching this thread, so I'm going to stop right there so it doesn't get closed or anything..  



So I called the vet yesterday and arranged to pick up 5 syringes with 2.5ml/ea of Dexamethasone..  Office was closed when I got there, but they hid them around back for me.  Cost was $2/ea, which I'll pay whenever...they don't care.  I'd say most of the cost there were the syringes, needles, and someone to fill them.  I'm probably going to buy a 50ml of Dex at some point, as it's handy for lots of things (the dreaded listeriosis being one)..  I'm also going to see if they would possibly sell me a 50ml of Ketofen, too...that would be pricey, but worth it.

I gave him his first Dex of this series at about 7pm yesterday..  I was up late, so I took them some hay around midnight..  He was really interested in it, and seemed to be dribbling a tad faster.  At the very least, he seemed a little brighter.

He's going to get his next one today at around 4pm..  Saturday, I'll probably give it at about 1pm..  Sunday, maybe 10am or so..  Monday, he'll get it at about 7:30am..  I'm sorta retarding the dosing time...dunno why, but my gut tells me that's the thing to do.

We'll see.


----------



## ksalvagno

I sure hope your little guy pulls through. He seems to be quite the little fighter. 

I am very glad you are posting this because it could potentially save a life down the road. While I realize everyone wants to keep their vet bills down, sometimes the vet just has to be called. When you learn something and can take care of it own your own later, all the better. I'm one for trying what I know how to do and then calling the vet if it doesn't work. There have been years when I have learned quite a bit from the vet and my knowledge base keeps growing and growing. Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.

Good luck!


----------



## Farmer Kitty

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I sure hope your little guy pulls through. He seems to be quite the little fighter.
> 
> I am very glad you are posting this because it could potentially save a life down the road. While I realize everyone wants to keep their vet bills down, sometimes the vet just has to be called. When you learn something and can take care of it own your own later, all the better. I'm one for trying what I know how to do and then calling the vet if it doesn't work. There have been years when I have learned quite a bit from the vet and my knowledge base keeps growing and growing. Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.
> 
> Good luck!


----------



## cmjust0

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Plus it is nice to keep up with current research. Better drugs and treatments for things are happening all the time.


Yep...Ketofen is a perfect example.  I'd never heard of it and didn't really know what it was when the vet gave it.  When I researched it, I found that it's just like Banamine but better, because it's much easier on the GI..  

Who knew?


----------



## cmjust0

Thanks again, everybody.


----------



## momto5lilrascals2angels

Okay this might sound like a really dumb question as I have never raised goats, but am considering it.  Couldn't you add some ACV to the water so that it helps with the calcifications and quite possibly could in turn help with the flow? I know that when my husband had stones it was suggested that he drink some water with acv in it. I also add it to my dog's, chicken's and cat's water so as to help with any uti's or stone problems. As I said I have never raised goats so I do not know if acv would be fine for their water or not.  Might be something to look into. 
I sure hope Frank pulls through. He obviously is a fighter, maybe you ought to add 'Ali' onto his name.


----------



## helmstead

ACV might well have some preventative properties, but is not nearly strong enough to treat, and IMHO really isn't strong enough to prevent UC, either.  The one good thing about ACV is that it isn't going to hurt anything...so when you're throwing the book at an animal you can also throw in the ACV.


----------



## momto5lilrascals2angels

Is this problem common in male goats?  We are considering getting two a doe and a buck, but after reading this, I'm really concerned about doing so. I know with any animal you can run into medical problems/issues but not knowing a whole lot about goats, I worry about not being able to care for them properly. Are there any good books out there that talk about the care as well as preventative type measures for various goat ailments, diseases etc?:/


----------



## FarmerChick

Here is info on the problem.


 URINARY CALCULI IN GOATS

Urinary Calculi, commonly called known as "Water Belly," is a urinary-tract disease in goats. Urinary Calculi prevents both urination and breeding in males. Female goats can but seldom do contract Urinary Calculi because of the straightness and shortness of their urethra. The twists and turns of the longer male urethra make passing solid particles difficult at best and impossible at worst. Urinary Calculi is a disease that can and does kill goats quickly. 

Urinary Calculi is almost always the result of improper feeding by the producer. A proper calcium to phosphorus ratio in feed, hay, and minerals is critical; this ratio should be 2-1/2 to 1. Although the disease is called Urinary Calculi, the real culprit is phosphorus -- specifically too much phosphorus in relation to the amount of calcium in the diet. Feeding too much grain concentrates and/or feeding grain concentrates with an improper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio is a major cause of Urinary Calculi. Overfeeding or improper feeding of grain concentrates causes solid particles to develop in the urine; these solid particles block the flow of urine out of the goat's body, causing great pain, discomfort, and oftentimes death. Producers who have experienced urinary-tract stones themselves will understand the seriousness of and pain associated with this condition. 

Besides grain concentrates, there are other factors affecting the calcium-to-phosphous ratio in the goat's diet. If the minerals being fed have the proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratio and the goats are not being fed a diet heavy in grain concentrates, then the producer should have both water and hay tested for mineral content. Many types of hay (Bermuda is one example) are high in phosphorus. Hay fertilized with chicken litter will be even higher in phosphorus levels. Adding calcium carbonate (ground limestone) to goat minerals can help bring the calcium-to-phosphorus ratio back to the 2-1/2 to 1 range. However, it is essential to work with a goat nutritionist to find the right amount of calcium carbonate to add to the mineral mixture to get these ratios on target. 

Goats used for show purposes are prone to Urinary Calculi because their owners tend to over-feed them with grain concentrates. Young wethers (castrated males) are especially susceptible to Urinary Calculi. Castration stops both testosterone production and the growth of the urethra. Solid particles cannot pass through a urethra that has not been given the opportunity to grow to its normal diameter. The chance of contracting Urinary Calculi in male show goats can be reduced by not wethering (castrating) them until they are five to six months of age -- giving the diameter of the urethra time to grow. Castration of a goat of this age should be done under sedation by a veterinarian. The addition of hay or some other type of long fiber to the goat's diet is absolutely critical to help avoid Urinary Calculi. This is a big problem with some show-goat producers because they tend to take goats off long fiber and push grain concentrates. This is asking for major Urinary Calculi problems. 

Urinary Calculi requires immediate medical attention. This condition will not correct itself and if left untreated, the goat will die. Symptoms of Urinary Calculi include tail twitching in males, restlessness, anxiety, and a "hunched-up" body posture as the goat strains to urinate. Sometimes the producer mis-diagnoses the problem as constipation or bloat because of goat's behavior and body stance. The producer should closely examine any male exhibiting these symptoms. Watch for signs of difficulty with urination. 

To examine the penis by extending it out of the urethral shaft, sit the goat on its rump for easier handling and manually work the penis out of the shaft for visual examination. This can be impossible to do in goats wethered very young because the penile shaft may still be adhered to the urethral process -- one more drawback of wethering at a very young age. (A sign of sexual maturity in a buckling is his ability to extend his penis out of the shaft.) Before a male can be catherized to relieve a build-up of urine,the pizzle must be cut off. An experienced producer can do this, but most folks should have this procedure performed by a qualified veterinarian. The pizzle is the "curley-qued" appendage on the end of the penis. Oftentimes the pizzle of a goat with Urinary Calculi is black and crusty in appearance. Removal of the pizzle does not affect breeding ability. If this treatment is unsuccessful, the goat must be taken immediately to a qualified veterinarian; the need for surgery under sedation is likely. If the producer waits too long, surgery won't save the goat. Surgery is no guarantee that the goat can be saved. 

Do not force a goat with Urinary Calculi to drink lots of water; if fluids can't leave the body because the exit is blocked, the only alternative is for the bladder to burst. A burst bladder cannot be fixed and is fatal. In many cases within 24 to 48 hours after the onset of Urinary Calculi the untreated goat's bladder will usually burst and the flow of urine into the sub-cutaneous tissues on the underside of the body ("Water Belly") will precede a quick and painful death. Administer Banamine (1 cc per 100 lbs bodyweight daily) for the pain that accompanies Urinary Calculi. 

Vets recommend that ammonium chloride be used to treat Urinary Calculi. Ammonium chloride can be purchased in small quantities (four-pound packages) from Pipestone Vet Supply at 1-800-658-2523. Here are the dosing instructions provided to me by a producer who has been successful in using Ammonium chloride to cure Urinary Calculi. Mix the following in 20 cc water and orally drench: One (1) teaspoon Ammonium chloride per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for 2 days, then 1/2 tsp AC per 75 lbs bodyweight every 12 hours for the next 3 days, then 1/2 tsp once a day for 3 days, then 1/4 tsp daily as a preventative. Dosages are based upon 75 lb liveweights. Ammonium chloride burns the throat, so stomach tube it into the goat. 

Some producers have had good luck using a product called Acid Pack.  Regardless of the treatment used, the goat must be taken off all grain concentrates and offered only grass hay, fresh green leaves, and water during this treatment regimen. This is not usually a problem since the goat is so sick that it is struggling to live and isn't interested in eating or drinking. Producers without these products on hand might consider trying -- in the short term until they are obtained -- "Fruit Fresh" from the canning aisle in the grocery store. Again this writer has no personal experience with this product but hears from time to time of producer-reported success using it. Immediate veterinary assistance is highly recommended when Urinary Calculi is suspected.

Occasionally -- very occasionally -- Urinary Calculi may be the result of the mineral content of the water that the goat is drinking. The local county extension office should be able to test the water to determine mineral content. The producer can easily test the pH of the goats' water supply by purchasing a fish-tank testing kit. The water's pH should be neutral (a pH of 7). 

The key to avoiding Urinary Calculi is feeding the goat a proper diet. Producers experiencing Urinary Calculi in their goats must change their feeding regimens. Carefully read feed labels for proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratios (2-1/2:1). Some prepared goat feeds contain ammonium chloride in the formulation, but this is no guarantee that Urinary Calculi will be avoided. Most importantly, offer lots of free-choice forage/browse and good-quality grass hay and reduce the amount of grain concentrates being fed. Both the health of your goats and your financial bottom line will improve.


----------



## cmjust0

momto5lilrascals2angels said:
			
		

> Okay this might sound like a really dumb question


No such thing.


			
				mt5lr2a said:
			
		

> Couldn't you add some ACV to the water so that it helps with the calcifications and quite possibly could in turn help with the flow?


ACV contains acetic acid, which is produced by fermentation bacteria..  Since the rumen is basically a mini fermentation vat, goats produce tons of acetic acid all on their own.  

Lots of folks mix ACV with their goats' water and claim it works because they've never had a case of urinary calculi, but that's difficult to guage.  It's like elephant spray for your living room; does it work?  Well, I don't see any elephants, so........ 

I think a lot of it has as much to do with the individual buckling as anything else..  Are they prone to fill up on grain?  Do they have a lower baseline body pH?  Do they drink less water than most?  Is their urethra smaller than normal?  Does their sigmoid flexure have an especially weird crook in it?  Lots of variables...

We had two bucklings in one pen eating the same hay and grain and drinking the same water...one got UC, the other is fine.



			
				mt5lr2a said:
			
		

> I sure hope Frank pulls through. He obviously is a fighter, maybe you ought to add 'Ali' onto his name.


He's definitely got a hard bark on him..


----------



## cmjust0

Well, he got his last round of Dex today..  Not much change.  I started him back on AC drenches a couple days ago, and I did notice that his pee got cloudy...maybe he's breaking down stone again.  Who knows..

At this point, my gut tells me that even if he does have a large stone or two that's gonna eventually break down, I think we're probably still looking at permanent, irreversable damage to the urinary tract..  

At some point, I've just gotta stop treating and say...OK...whatever happens, happens.  So long as he continues eating normally and looking bright, I'll let him be, even if he grunts and strains.  I wouldn't want to live that way, but then again, I wouldn't grunt and strain to pee yet simultaneously eating like a horse...which he does pretty often.

I also wouldn't run from one end of my pen to another, which he does when you bring hay to him...he literally gallops over and you can't get the hay set down before he's ripping at it..  That tells me he's still got at least some quality of life.  

I'm not a goat; it's hard for me to know what he's going through.  For all I know, this could be like a hangnail to a goat..  

We'll see.


----------



## cmjust0

Little guy seemed to be dribbling faster last night..  I've been drenching him with ammonium chloride just in case there was a large stone or two still stuck in there, even though I doubted it..

Now that I see faster dribbles, though...could be.

Or, could be a fluke.


----------



## momto5lilrascals2angels

I hope your little fellow will be fine. Obviously he isn't ready to give up yet.


----------



## cmjust0

Yeah, I think he's still got some quality of life at this point.  He still trots over for hay and starts eating before you can even get it out of your hands.  Given what little it seems to take to put a goat off its feed, I take that to mean he feels pretty ok.  Still likes to sniff your face while you scratch his chin, too..  

Still, he's fooled us before...  I mean, he got to where he could almost keep a stream going and then BAM...he was humped up again, hurting, barely dribbling, all seemingly out of nowhere.  Did that a couple of times, actually..

It's basically just a waiting game..  He does seem more zen with dribbling now, though, like it doesn't bug him as much as it once did.  Who knows...dribbling pee may wind up being his version of normal.  So long as he's ok with it, who am I to judge?  

I'd still like to see a little stone fall out and have him bust loose a big ol' stream, though.  Could happen, right?

Prolly not, but...it could.


----------



## ksalvagno

Anything can happen. I never rule anything out. It is great that the little guy keeps on going!


----------



## cmjust0

I think we should have named him Timex.


----------



## vaden boers

if you check my web page   www.freewebs.com/vadenboers , or conni ross's web page ( a boer breeder ) there is a recipe for a drench that will help disolve those stones and do exactly what the vets is doing , i trust connie ross and her years of expiernce in goats , she has saved more than one of my goats with her advice , know this doesnt help now , but maybe someon in the future , i have been told white viniger is better for this than apple cider i have used the white viniger beofre and just added it to my bucks water and used it with water as a drench and it worked , but i caught it  early , sorry about your goat .


----------



## cmjust0

We were successful at getting the calculi to dissolve...what we didn't do well enough was treat the inflammation, which should have been done with dexamethasone.  We treated with Ketofen (a muscle relaxer/NSAID/analgesic like Banamine) but it wasn't enough to keep him from swelling up and making the problem much worse..

If I had it to do over again, I'd have had him on dex and AC drenches for about a week..  I think we'd have been over it by now if we'd have done that.

Live and learn..

Little guy was attacking the crap out of the hay last night, and I stood for probably 10 minutes and never saw him even try to urinate.  I palpated around on him and didn't feel a full bladder.  I'm about 99% confident that he didn't pop it, so either I couldn't find it because I'm an idiot (entirely possible) or it wasn't super full....like he'd been able to empty it.

If he's eating, he's OK...that's my working theory at this point.  He's on zero meds right now, except for continuing AC drenches.  Nothing for pain or inflammation, though.  He's had too much already...maybe he'll have to go back on dex after a while, but we'll see.


----------



## cmjust0

Little guy's still living, btw...  No changes, still dribbly.  You would think he'd be all depressed and ready for someone to put him out of his misery, but no...he still attacks his hay with a vengeance and likes to be scratched under the chin..  The dribblies actually seem to be a fairly minor annoyance at this point, and he seems to kinda be living around it.

Noticed last night that his voice is changing..  He's going from the little kid 'baaa' to a really weird grunty 'baaa,' sometimes in mid-'baaaa.'  

So long as he doesn't go downhill from here, I'll keep watching and waiting and feeding and scratching his head.  What else ya gonna do, right?


----------



## lilhill

Nothing else.  Just keep lovin' on him.


----------



## trestlecreek

Sounds like he's hanging on real well for you!
How does the vet feel about him dribbling? Have they considered doing some further x-rays and tests?


----------



## cmjust0

The vet would pretty much do anything I asked.  We considered an x-ray, but the doc didn't know how well it would show even a single big stone through the soft tissue of the penis.  May not be much diagnostic value.  At this point, though, I sincerely doubt we're still looking at urinary calculi _per se_..  Chances are, we're looking at permanent damage to the urethra...  Scar tissue, that sort of thing.

As for the vet's take on the dribbles, he seems to basically consider that to be urination...period.  A couple of times he'd ask "Is he urinating?" and I'd say "Well, he's dribbling."  He'd say, "Well, that's good..." and move on..  He realizes -- as I've come to realize -- that he's not gonna die so long as he can dribble.  Might take him 5 minutes to dribble himself out, of course, whereas it takes the other buck 10 seconds, but hey...whatever works for him I guess.

Put it this way...  If I went to the doctor and all I could do was dribble, and the doctor said "Yeah, that probably hurts.  Let's just go ahead and euthanize you..."

Um...no, I'm OK, really.  I'll just dribble.  It's fine, really, I'm OK.  Forget I was ever here...........


----------



## trestlecreek

Yep, I see what you are saying.

There are other surgical ways to go about helping him without euthanization though.

They can also run tests to determine the type of stone so that they can accurately prescribe the right medications......

Just some thoughts,...

If he can dribble through life and be fine, than that is good, but dribbling to me says infection is on the way!!! I hope I'm not right, but that is what dribbling tends to lead to....


----------



## cmjust0

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Yep, I see what you are saying.
> 
> There are other surgical ways to go about helping him without euthanization though.


What other surgeries do you know of?  Urethrostomy -- turn him into a girl, basically -- was all the vet mentioned, and he said they usually have problems down the road.  

I don't wanna do that.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> They can also run tests to determine the type of stone so that they can accurately prescribe the right medications......
> 
> Just some thoughts,...


The UC itself cleared up pretty quick, actually...we're pretty sure it was the swelling that got him.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> If he can dribble through life and be fine, than that is good, but dribbling to me says infection is on the way!!! I hope I'm not right, but that is what dribbling tends to lead to....


Yep...especially as wet as it's been here lately.  It's been an excellent year for bugs and bacteria so far.


----------



## trestlecreek

Yes, they can "turn him into a girl", which could be one of the last options if he blocks again or gets an infection. 

They can also surgically open him up or drain him, look for stones, test the stones and find out what they consist of.

Yes, scar tissue may be what is causing him to dribble.

Dribbling means retention of urine. When they retain urine, bacteria tends to grow......

If I have this problem happen here with one of mine, I honestly may be happy with a dribble if the vet gave me that as the only option.  I do understand that further tests/procedures do cost $$$ and one may not want to spend it or can not rationalize it. 

I'm just pointing out some options and insight......

Has your vet talked about life-long antibiotics?


----------



## cmjust0

tc said:
			
		

> Yes, they can "turn him into a girl", which could be one of the last options if he blocks again or gets an infection.


Not an option, really..  I'd put him down before I'd do that.  It's not the money, either...vet said they tend to have complications down the road.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> They can also surgically open him up or drain him, look for stones, test the stones and find out what they consist of.


We "saw" the stones, in a manner of speaking, through an ultrasound.  His bladder was literally about 1/2 full.  We actually caught some from the urethral process and it was like sand.  

Whatever they were made of, they were gone in a week or so after ammonium chloride drenching and using Acid Pack 4-Way 2X..  

Also, he more or less drains himself...I should point that out.  More on that in a second..



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Yes, scar tissue may be what is causing him to dribble.


Pretty sure that's what's going on now.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Dribbling means retention of urine. When they retain urine, bacteria tends to grow......


Ok, so as for the dribbling...he doesn't walk around dribbling anymore like he used to.  He did that when we had him on dibenzyline, which I'm fairly certain prevented him from being able to hold his bladder at all..  He walked around and dribbled about all the time, but he was also on Dexamethasone, and therefore penicillin.

Since he's been off all his meds, though, he doesn't dribble as he walks.  Usually, he just does his thing without any noticable dribbling until he decides he has to pee, at which point he stretches way out and starts dripping..  The drips tend to start out slow, then increase in frequency to the point of a split second, near-stream at times when he pushes a little...then they sorta taper off to infrequent drips toward the end.  When it's just the occasional drip or no drips at all, he usually walks off and goes back to doing whatever he was doing.  It takes him several minutes at a time, but I'm pretty sure he's able to empty himself adequately.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> If I have this problem happen here with one of mine, I honestly may be happy with a dribble if the vet gave me that as the only option.  I do understand that further tests/procedures do cost $$$ and one may not want to spend it or can not rationalize it.
> 
> I'm just pointing out some options and insight......


I totally appreciate it, too..

FWIW, money's not the thing..  Not that it isn't a thing in my life -- it is, believe me -- but the vet and I pretty much came to a point where we said "Now what?" and the only logical answer was to wait and see what happens..

I sorta expected that he'd plug back up and either kick the bucket, or have to be put down...not so.  Instead, he seems to be adjusting to it and moving on with his life..

SO FAR, anyway..

I may well revisit his condition with the vet down the road, but for now...I'm just feeding him and petting him and letting him enjoy not getting stuck with needles and having the cold steel of a drench gun stuck down his throat every...single...fricken...day.

He seems to appreciate that so far.  

But, seriously...I'll take all the ideas I can get.


----------



## trestlecreek

You're welcome.
 If it were me and this point, I would talk to the vet about a low dose oral anti-biotic(like smz-tmp) just to be safe while you watch and wait.


----------



## cmjust0

Wow, so it's been about eight months now since the last update here..  Time flies, huh?

Frank's still kickin.  His bout with UC, I think, has left him with some general, overall health issues..  Or, at least, prone to other issues..  

He got mites/lice/fungus/funk/Chinese-creeping-crud whereas the herdsire he's in with...nada...he's picture perfect.  (Ivomec and better housing cured him, btw)

Frank's coat is rough and dull and dry and course..  The herdsire is slick and shiney.  Same resources for both...only thing different is the goat.

Frank's got big fat horns and the herdsire's 'bawlhettit...yet, guess who gets shoved around?  Franklin, of course.

Frank should be bigger than he is too, I think.

BUT...all that said...the complications from UC have lessened considerably.  We'd all but stopped bothering to watch him pee, but I noticed recently that he kinda stretched out and made a pretty decent little stream!

Not a huge stream, and not a fast stream, but a stream nonetheless..  The stream gets a little dribbly at times, and he'll occasionally _push_ a bit to get it going again, but it's a vast improvement over the fart-inducing grunts he used to have to crank out to get even a fast dribble going.

Overall, I'd have to say Frank's doing A-OK.  Sure, he's got issues, but hell...we all gots issues...and he seems _happy_.  I'll take live and happy any day of the week, considering how incredibly close he came to the big dirt nap.


----------



## ksalvagno

Glad to hear Frankie is still doing fine. Hopefully that will continue.

I'm going to be starting my boys on Hydrangea as soon as it comes in. That is supposed to work well on UC both getting rid of current and prevention. I know humans who use it and swear by it. Even having proof that it worked as they were already seeing a doctor for it. Of course there probably won't be any proof if my boys never get UC since they may not  get it anyway but I don't want to take that chance after reading what you went through.


----------



## cmjust0

I actually just went back and reread the whole saga, from the very first post.  Wow..  What a PITA the whole thing was for everyone involved..

BTW...if anyone ever wonders why I seem so INCREDIBLY CONCERNED about urinary calculi....read this whole thread.


----------



## cmjust0

So, more than a year has passed since Frank's bout with the dreaded urinary calculi...and he's still living.  He pees pretty good streams now, actually, and can aaaaaaaalmost spray his face if he tries really hard.

Aside from that...I'm seriously about to double tap him and throw him in a sinkhole somewhere.    

He's a "man in full," as it were, and as my former bottle baby, he has no fear of me whatsoever.  When I walk into the buck pen, he's ready to do one of two things -- and they both start with a capital F.

One's fighting..  The other?  Take a guess....

He actually rammed me last night, so I stuck the end of a gate handle in his right nostril and imparted 6kV directly to the tenderest of mucous membranes.  That ended the fight -- but the war shall continue, I'm sure.

Funny how one can go from being so concerned about whether a $40 goat lives or dies to seriously wanting to send it away to freezer camp.

 

He's getting really mean, though.  Like, seriously.  I really might have to send him A) down the road, or B) across the rainbow bridge if he doesn't learn to get his countr'ass away from me when I have to be in the buckpen.

No good deed -- or $300+ vet bill -- goes unpunished.  :/


----------



## ksalvagno

Isn't he a wether? I'm surprised he has gotten so bratty if he is! :/


----------



## Roll farms

You can't really blame it on the bottle baby part (at least not fully...).

I have had 2 MEAN bucks, both dam-reared and w/ horns.  I've never had one of our bottle baby dehorned bucks come after me...ever.

I really think it's got as much to do w/ attitude as anything.

One of the mean ones is back here visiting our does....he's busted a tube gate and rammed a cattle panel to pieces, trying to get at the buck next to him.  He doesn't challenge me, just my property.

The other one was a kiko and he got blood in his eyes when he saw me.  I hated to, but HAD to, sell him, because one of us was going to die if I'd kept him. 

I've had one horned, dam reared buck who was 'ok'...not friendly but didn't offer to kill me or tear stuff up, either.

Rider, Chaos, Hurricane, and Buddy are all dehorned sweeties who I raised (and taught some sense to as youngsters) and we get on fine.

(That's not to say they don't get a bit frisky when in rut....but frisky I can live with...mean / destructive, I can't.)


----------



## Hykue

Wow, I just read through this whole thread.  It was very informative, thank you for posting through the whole saga.  As for the meanness - sounds to me like he remembers that drench-gun you used on him so many times, no?


----------



## cmjust0

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Isn't he a wether? I'm surprised he has gotten so bratty if he is! :/


Nope...he's still got all the tackle in his tacklebox.

I never really got the chance to decide what to do with Frank; to wether him and sell him as a pet, or leave him with his tackle and sell him as a buck..  Before I could decide, bang...UC.  

After he got UC, I knew I had to leave his nuggets with him or he'd have no shot at outgrowing the UC....if that was even a possibility.

For the sake of _his_ life, leaving him intact has proven to be the right thing to have done because he pees pretty good now that he's all grow'd up.....but for _my_ life, maybe not such a great idea.  





			
				Roll said:
			
		

> I really think it's got as much to do w/ attitude as anything.


You're probably right...but...when you get one that gets REALLY rutty and has been handled a whole lot, I figure you kinda get into that "dairy bull" situation so many cattle people talk about..  Handled, handled, and handled some more...big sweet hearts...and then they grow up and try to kill you because A) they don't see you as a threat and B) you sorta get used to them being sweet, so it comes as a bit of a surprise when they decide to grind you into the gravel one day.



			
				Hykue said:
			
		

> sounds to me like he remembers that drench-gun you used on him so many times, no?


Could be!  Maybe he's like "Remember all those times you waterboarded me?  Well, take THIS!"


----------



## Lisa Beck

Hi I am a certified herbalist that specializes in animal wellness.  I also have raised Nigerian dwarf goats for 16 years.  I have used herbs for this condition for years with GREAT success.  Historically for the animals with the urinary tract stones you want to add hydrangea to their feed.  I have a client that used this on her rescue gray hound.  This gray hound had 3 large stones in his bladder that would not pass.  The vet wanted to do surgery and remove part of the dogs penis.  Unfortunately this is normally only a temporary fix. The owner gave the hydrangea for 3 weeks and took the dog back to the vet and the stones were totally gone.  Goats, cats, dogs, and humans are just a few that can suffer from kidney or bladder stones.  You can purchase the hydrangea in capsule form or buy it by the pound.  You add it directly to their food. The goats are the easiest ones to take it, because they do not taste it in the grain.  I have had a few bucks in my time to start to strain and have crystals in the urine.  The hydrangea not only can work as a preventitive but also when your animal is having signs of the slow stream and pain.  If you would like any other information on this, please contact me.  Thanks


----------



## cmjust0

Lisa Beck said:
			
		

> Hi I am a certified herbalist that specializes in animal wellness.  I also have raised Nigerian dwarf goats for 16 years.  I have used herbs for this condition for years with GREAT success.  Historically for the animals with the urinary tract stones you want to add hydrangea to their feed.  I have a client that used this on her rescue gray hound.  This gray hound had 3 large stones in his bladder that would not pass.  The vet wanted to do surgery and remove part of the dogs penis.  Unfortunately this is normally only a temporary fix. The owner gave the hydrangea for 3 weeks and took the dog back to the vet and the stones were totally gone.  Goats, cats, dogs, and humans are just a few that can suffer from kidney or bladder stones.  You can purchase the hydrangea in capsule form or buy it by the pound.  You add it directly to their food. The goats are the easiest ones to take it, because they do not taste it in the grain.  I have had a few bucks in my time to start to strain and have crystals in the urine.  The hydrangea not only can work as a preventitive but also when your animal is having signs of the slow stream and pain.  If you would like any other information on this, please contact me.  Thanks


When one of our posters began commenting on hydrangea root, I went and did a little searching around..  It seems as though it's one of those "centuries old" secrets that cure kidney stones.  Claims are that it dissolves them.

That's fine.  I won't disagree with that because I don't have a dog in that fight..  

The reason I don't have a dog in that fight, though, is because kidney stones and urinary calculi are completely different types of stones that form from different elements under different circumstances.

About 80% of the time, kidney stones in huans are calcium oxalate stones..  A far greater percentage of urinary calculi in goats is the result of struvite, which is magnesium ammonium phosphate.

Calcium oxalate stones are extremely difficult to dissolve, as they're basically rocks.  Struvite in goats, on the other hand, is more like a sandy, crystalline...stuff...that dissolves readily in fairly mild acid.  

In my experience, and based on what I've heard from A LOT of other peoples' experience, the biggest problem with UC in goats isn't necessarily getting the struvite to dissolve...it's keeping the goat's urethra from becoming inflamed and/or stopping muscle spasms of the sigmoid flexure.

Now...having said that...I'm actually about to give hydrangea root some credit.  For all of you out there who are like ...O....M....G... yeah, you read that right.  

Some things I've read recently -- like, actual studies done by actual clinicians -- indicates that a certain compound (halofuginone) in hydrangea root has the ability to turn off one of the body's cellular immune system's t-helper (TH17) cells, and the nasty, pro-inflammatory stuff (interleukin-17) it produces.

I've also read a few things indicating that hydrangea root can help with urinary tract infections, and urinary tract infections have long been known to be one of the causes of UC in goats.  Indeed, I've actually come to believe that when you see ONE GOAT of a whole bunch develop UC while all his male herdmates are perfectly fine, there's quite likely some bacteria to blame.

See where I'm going with this?  Anti-UTI + anti-inflammatory = possibly helpful.

_POSSIBLY.._..helpful.

If you have a goat that starts straining a bit to pee, it's entirely possible that the straining is from a UTI, or UTI/UC combo..  If you catch it early enough, it may be possible that the hydrangea root could take care of the infection and turn off a t-helper cell and it's production of pro-inflammatories..

If there was struvite present, the struvite may dissolve on its own as the urine pH rises in the abscence of the infection, and the hydrangea root may keep inflammation down juuuust enough to prevent the whole works from locking up (which, btw, mimics UC perfectly -- even after the stones are long gone).

Still...there are a lot of "mights," "mays," and "it's possible" in there..

What I KNOW is that:

1) Banamine WILL reduce pain and inflammation
2) Dexamethasone WILL halt inflammatory processes
3) Liquid ammonium chloride drenching WILL dissolve struvite
4) Antibiotics WILL cure UTIs.
...and, most importantly...
5) When a goat is in trouble with UC, I don't personally have time to "try" something that may or may not work.

 ( <-- that's real, btw....not sarcastic. )


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