# Two of our American Blackbelly ewes appear to becoming skinnier, and skinnier.



## soarwitheagles (Feb 17, 2016)

I am not sure if this constitutes an emergency...

Two of our American Blackbelly ewes appear to becoming skinnier, and skinnier by the day...

To be 100% with you, they are starting to look totally emaciated.

When I look toward their rear end, their sides are beginning to indent in quite a bit.  Also, it seems as if their ribs are sticking out.

The strangest thing is, these two sheep appear to be out eating all the other sheep!  I am giving all sheep unlimited hay, lots of greens daily, and super healthy grain every other day.

It makes no sense to me at all.

We see no signs of diarrhea [scours].  All sheep were dewormed the day we purchased them.

I have no clue what it could be.

Please help us figure out what is happening here before we lose them.

Thank you,

Soar


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## norseofcourse (Feb 17, 2016)

Have you checked their eyelids lately?  The inside of the lower lid should be a nice medium to dark pink.  Too white (or light) can be a sign of anemia which can be a sign of a heavy worm load.  Taking a fresh fecal sample in to your vet for a worm check would be a good idea, too.  Not all worms cause anemia.

Diseases can cause weight loss, too - the ones that come to mind first are Johnes (yo-nees), scrapie, and ovine progressive pneumonia.

I would be contacting my vet.  You may have some sheep with worms resistant to whatever they were wormed with, or you may have something more serious going on.  Good luck.


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## promiseacres (Feb 18, 2016)

Parasites is the first thing I think of


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## purplequeenvt (Feb 19, 2016)

My first thought would be parasites. A big tape worm or coccidia load possibly. 

Another possibility would be one of the more serious contagious diseases like Johnes or OPP.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 19, 2016)

Local rancher recommended Corid in the water, so that is what we did.  He also mentioned that American Blackbellies are kind a skinny by nature [body shape ] compared to most other sheep.

So perhaps I have been too worried again...

Will check the eye lids and do the body score asap.

So sorry!


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 19, 2016)

First I'll say that I don't own sheep but I do have goats. Some by nature look thinner than others in comparison by breed. However, if they are looking totally emaciated I think you have a problem on your hands. 

Are these the ewes that recently lambed? Lambing/ kidding can cause a parasite bloom. Can you have a fecal run on them?


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 19, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> First I'll say that I don't own sheep but I do have goats. Some by nature look thinner than others in comparison by breed. However, if they are looking totally emaciated I think you have a problem on your hands.
> 
> Are these the ewes that recently lambed? Lambing/ kidding can cause a parasite bloom. Can you have a fecal run on them?





Goat Whisperer said:


> First I'll say that I don't own sheep but I do have goats. Some by nature look thinner than others in comparison by breed. However, if they are looking totally emaciated I think you have a problem on your hands.
> 
> Are these the ewes that recently lambed? Lambing/ kidding can cause a parasite bloom. Can you have a fecal run on them?



Thank you for your concern Ghost Whisperer!

These two ewes weren't pregnant when we purchased the flock.  About 6 weeks after purchasing this flock of AB's, the ram began to chase after and mount these two ewes.  I think they are pregnant now.  Two of the ewes already gave birth to singles.  A few more of the ewes appear obviously pregnant.

It's these two ewes that seemed skinnier than normal.  I do see the ribs showing, but that may be normal for this species of sheep.

I will do my best to do a body score tomorrow and also check the eye lids as suggested.

We went to a friends house yesterday and a few of his AB's also appeared kinda skinny, so we are beginning to think it may be normal for this type of sheep.

I hope you do not mind my asking, how do we do a fecal run on them?

Is this the test that I purchase a microscope and slides, then examine for eggs/worms?


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 21, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Thank you for your concern Ghost Whisperer!
> 
> These two ewes weren't pregnant when we purchased the flock.  About 6 weeks after purchasing this flock of AB's, the ram began to chase after and mount these two ewes.  I think they are pregnant now.  Two of the ewes already gave birth to singles.  A few more of the ewes appear obviously pregnant.
> 
> ...


Yes. 
You do not have to buy a scope and slides, although its a great asset to any farm with livestock IMO. Because a parasite issue is suspected it would be best for your sheep vet or lab to look at a few samples until you are familiar with it. 

I don't know how it is over in CA but over here in NC lots of classes are taught on running your own fecals. You might want to look around for something like that. 

@Southern by choice did a few articles on it, I'll see if I can pull it up.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 21, 2016)

Corid would be for cocci. Although cocci can affect adults it is usually much more dangerous to lambs/kids. I would suspect a parasite bloom. Diseases like Johnes are an issue but before testing for Johnes, considering you are not at a scour stage... I would just run a fecal to your vet... 

Just because they were dewormed doesn't mean they do not have a parasite issue. You have to know what dewormer was used and also its efficacy. Often with a high load several treatments 10days -2 weeks apart are required.

Without running a fecal you have nothing to go on. You must know what kind of parasite. If cocci then no dewormer would help... they are two different things.

You can always start looking into scopes and methods later for now- vet! 

Ny the way- most sheep breeders test for nothing ever! But I advise you to draw blood send test out to UC Davis for Johnes (serum- PCR) and OPP.

Here are the 3 articles I wrote...
UNDERSTANDING what it is all about-
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/understanding-famacha-fecal-analysis.56/

Part1-
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/the-mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis.55/

Part 2-http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis-part2.57/


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## Southern by choice (Feb 21, 2016)

I forgot to add CL in sheep is often internal and not external. Again, sheep people just don't seem to care as much about disease and few test... symptoms for internal CL in sheep are as follows...

from goat-link
_The Clinical Signs of CL in the Visceral form are long term emaciation, coughing, and general poor health. The internal organs most affected are the lungs, kidney and liver- mostly in sheep, but can appear in goats. _


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## alsea1 (Feb 21, 2016)

I would def. have  some fecals done by a local sheep savy vet.  That will tell you if you have a parasite issue and what they are. It will also tell you if your worming program is effective or not. Trouble with parasites is that some have developed resistance to some of the  meds. So if you used xyz wormer and you still have a problem then the vet can help you determine which wormer to use.  I have AB's and they are not an overstuffed breed with huge body mass, but none of mine are thin either.


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## SheepGirl (Feb 24, 2016)

May not be an issue with parasites. Could just be they are in late gestation and they aren't getting the nutrition they need. Feeding only hay may not be adequate -- you may need to feed grain.


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## alsea1 (Feb 27, 2016)

I have to feed grain as our hay is sub par. My pasture is not that big either. So I supplement with livestock grain and alf pellets.
I get a mineral that is designed for our area as well from my vet.
If two of your sheep are looking bad but the rest look fine I would think two of them have some kind of issue. If all the sheep look thin then after you rule out parasites you could step up on the feed and give it a month or so.


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## bareback90 (Mar 1, 2016)

We have experienced a barber pole worm infestation in my area.  I tried deworming but it had no effect on them so I turned to diametaceous earth a little in their feed every day took care of them and now I have one of the healthiest flocks in the county . And my husband is using it on the cattle


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 1, 2016)

Just curious @bareback90 - did you run before and after fecals when using the DE.  Also, what wormer did you use before resorting to DE?

Thanks!


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## bareback90 (Mar 2, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Just curious @bareback90 - did you run before and after fecals when using the DE.  Also, what wormer did you use before resorting to DE?
> 
> Thanks!


Yes. And tried ivomec and safe guard neither worked on the barber pole worm.  My sheep had healthy appetite s and yet they continued to lose weight and I lost a few before I turned to the DE. Now I use it daily and  follow up with Noromectin on the odd one that might need it for nasal bots or such. And my eyelids and gums are quite rosy now. This year I have 30 lambs on the ground 3 ewes yet to lamb and 3 losses 2 stillborn and 1 ewe proposed


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 2, 2016)

Thanks!


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## purplequeenvt (Mar 2, 2016)

bareback90 said:


> We have experienced a barber pole worm infestation in my area.  I tried deworming but it had no effect on them so I turned to diametaceous earth a little in their feed every day took care of them and now I have one of the healthiest flocks in the county . And my husband is using it on the cattle



Are you using food grade DE?


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## purplequeenvt (Mar 2, 2016)

bareback90 said:


> Yes. And tried ivomec and safe guard neither worked on the barber pole worm.  My sheep had healthy appetite s and yet they continued to lose weight and I lost a few before I turned to the DE. Now I use it daily and  follow up with Noromectin on the odd one that might need it for nasal bots or such. And my eyelids and gums are quite rosy now. This year I have 30 lambs on the ground 3 ewes yet to lamb and 3 losses 2 stillborn and 1 ewe proposed



Are you sure you had Barber Pole and not tapes?? Normally with BP, they get skinny at first, but then they get wicked anemic and weak. Unless you are able to knock out the worms before they get bad, chances are good the sheep will die.

Tapes will make a sheep skinny, but don't usually kill them. 

You may not have been seeing good results with the wormers because you were under-dosing or you had a resistant worm. I routinely double or triple the SafeGuard dose and worm 3 days in a row.


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## bareback90 (Mar 3, 2016)

purplequeenvt said:


> Are you sure you had Barber Pole and not tapes?? Normally with BP, they get skinny at first, but then they get wicked anemic and weak. Unless you are able to knock out the worms before they get bad, chances are good the sheep will die.
> 
> Tapes will make a sheep skinny, but don't usually kill them.
> 
> You may not have been seeing good results with the wormers because you were under-dosing or you had a resistant worm. I routinely double or triple the SafeGuard dose and worm 3 days in a row.


I definitely had barber pole confirmed by my vet and dewormed as prescribed by my vet .I know my vet does not agree with the DE but I credit it with the success of eliminating the worms .All I a m saying is it worked for me, It will not harm your animals as long as you get the food grade DE, If your out of options it's worth trying


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## purplequeenvt (Mar 4, 2016)

I'm glad it's working for you! How much are you feeding per animal? How do you give it too them?

Where do you find your DE? I think our TSC sells it, but I'm not sure if it's food grade.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 4, 2016)

I would LOVE to see a study of DE working. 

Do you know how it kills the parasites? 

So far all of the farms I have seen that uses the DE still have awful worm issues.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 5, 2016)

I just put this thread up of the most recent studies on DE.

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/diatomaceous-earth-parasite-control.32666/


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## bareback90 (Mar 7, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I would LOVE to see a study of DE working.
> 
> Do you know how it kills the parasites?
> 
> So far all of the farms I have seen that uses the DE still have awful worm issues.


I think it crytalizes the worms some how.
I bought my first bag of DE at a health food store @ $80 Then I found a pond supply store that carries the exact same food grade DE but the cost was considerably better@$55/bag Both places sold me De in 50 lb bags and a bag lasts me a year. I feed it at the recommended rate of 2% of their daily feed.each day. My show animals get grain and DE very day My pasture flocks only when they are off pasture and getting grain. I believe the DE eradicated the Barber Pole worm in my flock.


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