# eye rupture



## Shepherd Moon (Jan 17, 2016)

I have a 15-yr old angora goat who has had worsening problems. (I suspect she has CAE; over the past year she's developed arthritis, abnormal hoof growth, swollen warm udders, occasional paralysis and/or seizures.) Yesterday I found her rigid on her side, and unable to stand up. When I helped her to her feet, I noticed that she had apparently banged her head so hard into the ground that she broke her horn nearly off. More disturbing, when I took a look at her, I noticed that where her eye used to be was packed with dirt. The whole area is swollen and I've rinsed it to the best of my ability, but I cannot tell exactly how much is swelling around the eye making the eyeball look sunken vs. how much is ruptured eyeball. She used to have a blue eye and there is no sign of blue anywhere in there now, so I'm sure she's blind in that eye now, even if there is something left in the socket. Today it seems to be weeping with pus. I rush shipped some "pink eye" antibacterial, anti-fungal spray which arrived today, but reading the fine print, it says not to use on a ruptured eye, so I'm back to square one with no plan for treatment. (I'm also looking for some Bio-mycin, but again I really don't know if that's what I need for her.)

I don't have a goat vet and my horse vet has no idea what to do. A normal person would probably put her down at this point, but I'm not quite ready to give up on her yet. She doesn't seem to be in pain and is eating and drinking normally, so I'm thinking that if she's willing to hang in there, I need to be willing to try to help her. I give her aspirin regularly for the arthritis and hope it's also helping to keep her comfortable right now too. Infection is my prime concern, but how to clean and treat and bandage the eye is also a question. Any ideas on what I can possibly do for her? (By the way, her horn is pressed diagonally across her skull, mostly but not completely broken off, and I don't know what to do about that either.)

I would really appreciate some advice. Thank you!


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## norseofcourse (Jan 17, 2016)

Welcome to BHY, and sorry to hear about your goat's troubles.  Have you asked your horse vet if they know of any vets around who might have any experience with goats?  Are there any people in your area who keep goats who might be able to help or advise you?

I've never dealt with a ruptured eye before, but there's lots of experienced people here so hopefully someone will post soon with some advice.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 17, 2016)

I am sorry to hear about that.  She has to be uncomfortable.  If her eye is ulcerated, it needs to be vet treated and probably removed before the infection spreads.  That is not something I would ever take on as an at home procedure.  I have to imagine that it would be a bit costly too, and you say she is 15 years old.  You might need to do some weighing of options for her and decide what would be best for her and you.  I totally understand not being ready for her to be gone so finding a vet to treat her is probably imperative.  Can you call back the horse vet to as about removal?  Or some cat/dog vets will do goats in a pinch.  You could maybe get some referrals calling around too.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 17, 2016)

Agree with PP.... it's not always about prolonging life...it's about quality.  I'm so sorry you're going through this.  I hope your goat can be helped, but if not I hope you can help her out of her pain.   Sending best wishes for the best outcome.


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## Latestarter (Jan 17, 2016)

Sorry for the reason you're here, but welcome to BYH none the less. Are we EVER really ready to let our animals go? I'm sorry, but I see it as a quality of life issue. From all that you've said, she's in really rough shape, and at 15, getting old for a goat. Just because you can keep her alive another short while doesn't mean you should... as you stated: "A normal person would probably put her down at this point..."  Whatever you decide, I hope it's what's best for her, more so than you.  

I have to agree with the others WRT getting that eye looked at by a vet. If it's infected with pus coming out, there's a direct path for that infection into her brain. I can do first aid/triage with normal cuts and even do stitches if needed, but I wouldn't even think about digging around in an eye socket... As for the horn, if it's broken at the base, that has probably/may have exposed her nasal cavity and should also be looked at by a vet. If she falls again, she may impact dirt in there as well. I've never heard of a horn being re-attached, so it will most likely have to be removed. There is at least one thread on here about a goat that had her horns surgically removed and the healing process involved (I believe it was 6-8 weeks or more).

Good luck and best wishes.


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 17, 2016)

Thanks for all the kind responses. Admittedly putting an animal down is a very tough choice for me. It will come to that eventually, but I look at an animal and evaluate, "Would she rather be dead or alive?". Right now she's still taking pleasure in being alive; she was eager for breakfast, later devoured her banana slices (with aspirin and MSM pills hidden inside), and was very curious about my camera while I took a few pictures of her to post (but I cannot figure out how to create a URL link - but maybe nobody wants to see eye injury pictures anyway). Her quality of life has deteriorated, but I don't see her "suffering".

My son washed out her eye and trimmed the blood-matted hair this morning, and it looks better than I expected - not great, but gives me more hope. I don't know "eyeballs" but there's still an orb in there (it's convex, not concave), but I really think the cornea is gone.

At least 12 years ago I found a cow vet about an hour away to work on my other goat with a urethra blockage. She was the only person I could find willing to look at a goat (and she had expected to put him down, but instead we saved him and he's still doing great!). I will try to find her again on Monday, but am concerned about the cost (and success) of eyeball surgery. 

I also found a past post here called "eyeball injury" (from July 2013) where someone (Straw Hat Kikos) suggested injections of penicillin IM and a penicillin eye flush every day. I could easily do that, assuming I can get some penicillin somewhere...


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 17, 2016)

and  that you can find the vet again to see what can be done for her


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## Latestarter (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm not sure where you're located, but you can get penicillin and some other animal antibiotics (here in CO) at animal husbandry stores like TSC (Tractor Supply Co).


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 17, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I'm not sure where you're located, but you can get penicillin and some other animal antibiotics (here in CO) at animal husbandry stores like TSC (Tractor Supply Co).


I'm in California. I'll ask at my feed store, they have some stuff, but I know they cannot carry most anything a vet prescribes. But I'm thinking my horse vet probably has penicillin - right? (Maybe my dog vet clinic, but they aren't too willing to part with medicines except for the dogs/cats they are treating.)


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## Latestarter (Jan 17, 2016)

@babsbag Can you help this lady? I know you're in CA too.


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2016)

CA is a big state so are in you anywhere near Redding? I can get you  the name of a couple of goat vets up here if you need them. I am pretty sure you can buy Pen at TSC but not positive about that.

I really don't know how I would treat an eye injury without my vet, no experience with those at all. But I do know that Terramycin is an ointment you would use for an eye infection in a cat or dog so maybe that would work. I think you can get that at some feed stores too.

Sorry I am not more help.


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 18, 2016)

babsbag said:


> CA is a big state so are in you anywhere near Redding? I can get you  the name of a couple of goat vets up here if you need them. I am pretty sure you can buy Pen at TSC but not positive about that.
> 
> I really don't know how I would treat an eye injury without my vet, no experience with those at all. But I do know that Terramycin is an ointment you would use for an eye infection in a cat or dog so maybe that would work. I think you can get that at some feed stores too.
> 
> Sorry I am not more help.


I'm at the other end of the state - near Disneyland. I found a post here on BYH about treating eye injuries, so I'm trying it...


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 18, 2016)

I've been searching websites all day, so I'm going to attempt to document my efforts, for better or worse, in case someone else ever needs help...

Quick update - I found a vet willing to put down my goat today, but not willing to work on her eye. I think my goat (by the way, her name is Peaches) is not suffering. I'd even go so far as to say she seems to be enjoying all the attention from family and neighbors concerned about her. I'm giving her 2 aspirin and half an MSM/Glucosamine pill inside banana slices twice a day and she's loving them. All this is to say, I can't put her down because she doesn't want to leave us yet. But I am very concerned about infection, so I'm going to try to fix her on my own.

Here's the post I found from July 2013 which is giving me a plan to follow:



Straw Hat Kikos said:


> Best thing you can do for any eye injury is to use Penicillin. It doesn't burn the eye and is not acidic but most importantly is it works great with eye injuries.
> 
> Right now if she is just keeping it closed and it's weeping it doesn't sound so bad right now. Did you look in the eye too? Can you see a cut or gash, etc.?
> 
> ...



Let's start with the problem that I cannot find Dura-Pen - except online and at least one more day away, but I don't want to put off medicating my goat any longer. Here's what I learned: Dura-Pen, Tandem, Twin-Pen and Combi-Pen are all the same thing (and I can't find any of them). They are 150,000 units of Benzathine and 150,000 units of Procaine, totaling the 300,000 units mentioned in the post. Benzathine is supposed to be long lasting, whereas Procaine is supposed to be fast acting, so it would have been a nice combo. But I did find several websites that said Benzathine is no longer effective against many bacteria these days. (One website said Procaine isn't effective anymore either, but most places seemed to think it is still okay.)

Happily, I found Aspen Bactracillin G (which is Procaine 300,000 units per 1mL) at my feed store, but the directions says to use 1mL per 100 pounds, which conflicts with the 1cc (cc = mL) per 40 pounds suggested in the post. And that conflicts with other websites saying 3-10mL for an adult goat - some even say double it for the first injection. This is day 4 since she injured herself - without any antibiotics yet, so I don't want to underdose, but I don't want to kill with my efforts either. I found a website specifically telling me that goats require MORE Procaine than other animals, so I'm going to guess her weight is about 60-lbs and I'm going to do a 3mL first injection. (fingers-crossed!)

Next, the instructions say to inject IM (intramuscular):
"Injected deep within a major muscle mass, such as that in the hind leg or on the shoulder. It should be given with an 18 gauge, 2.5 to 4 cm needle, pointed straight into the muscle. Before injecting the drug, always withdraw on the syringe plunger to make sure you haven't hit a blood vessel. If this happens, blood will flow into the syringe. To correct, simply replace the needle in the muscle."

but my goat research seems to prefer SQ (subcutaneously):
"Injected under the skin, usually in the neck or behind the shoulder. Usually a 1 to 2.5 cm needle is inserted at an angle through the skin. So that you do not stick yourself, pick up the skin with your fingers and insert the needle through the skin while it is pointed away from your fingers."

I learned the shot into the muscle is supposed to work faster, but the one under the skin is supposed to hurt less (and cause less "damage"?). I decided to go for the faster-acting injection into the muscle for her first dose and switch to under the skin later. No pressure, but here's the fine print, "Penicillin injections that hit a blood vein can kill an animal almost immediately". So be careful!

First problem, she is old and wasting away (did I forget to mention that in her list of ailments?), so finding a meaty place is difficult. I got the needle in and tried to pull the plunger to see if I would draw blood (i.e. hit a vein) - nope - so far so good. Next, I don't know needle sizes, so I picked the skinniest one so it would hurt less - right? Unfortunately penicillin is too thick to inject quickly through the narrow needle, so the syringe popped off the needle and 3 mL of penicillin exploded all over me. As I said, I don't know needles, but the one marked 5/8, 25G is too small. Instead, I moved to 1, 20G, and this time didn't want the stress of finding a muscle, not a vein again (that whole "instant death" thing), so I pinched up some skin from her neck and injected subcutaneously.

My (wonderful!) son flushed her eye with buffered saline solution from the drug store and then squirted about 1-2cc of penicillin into the eye, using a syringe (with no needle of course!). I still cringe when I look at her eye, so I'm really grateful for his help! I should probably post pictures if I want this to be useful to someone someday, but it's a hard thing to look at.

More later... (wish me luck!)


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 19, 2016)

Day 5 (Warning photo included)

She's still doing fine. I'm giving her 2mL injections of Penicillin G Procaine (300,000 units per mL) subcutaneously in the neck twice a day - plus I'm rinsing the eye with buffered sterile saline and then squirting 2mL more Penicillin into the eye (assuming about 1mL actually gets in).  

Here's a picture from Day 3, after washing and trimming her face:


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## Goatgirl47 (Jan 19, 2016)

Awww poor girl! I'm glad she's doing better. 

Good luck!


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## norseofcourse (Jan 19, 2016)

Sorry you haven't been able to find a vet who could help, but I know you'll do all you can for her, hope it goes well and thanks for the update.


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## babsbag (Jan 19, 2016)

Yes, you are a long way from Redding. With needles the bigger the number the smaller they are. I use 20 gauge for most stuff but as you found Pen is thick so 18 would be better. 

Good job treating her, hope that it all helps.


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## Latestarter (Jan 19, 2016)

God bless you and the goat... you both need it! I hope she's feeling better and no infection.


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 20, 2016)

Day 6

I don't feel like I'm doing a good job with the injections... In the beginning Peaches was accepting the shots pretty well, but I'm trying to find new places on her neck and it seems each shot is more painful than the last. (And I hold my breath everytime, worried about hitting a vein, even though these shots should be landing under the skin (SQ), not in her muscle (IM). I'm still a little freaked about the instant death thing, if I accidentally inject Penicillin into a vein.) So I've moved to YouTube for some additional guidance in goat injections:


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 20, 2016)

I've found that the easiest place to give a SQ injection is somewhere over the rib cage.  It's easy to use the hair to pull up a 'tent' of skin and just slip the needle in.   Of course, I didn't really factor in the 'angora' part of this goat, lol.  All that fiber might make it a bit more difficult to see what you're doing, but after you've done it a few times you can literally do it with your eyes closed...just watch out for your fingers!  Good luck!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 20, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I've found that the easiest place to give a SQ injection is somewhere over the rib cage.  It's easy to use the hair to pull up a 'tent' of skin and just slip the needle in.   Of course, I didn't really factor in the 'angora' part of this goat, lol.  All that fiber might make it a bit more difficult to see what you're doing, but after you've done it a few times you can literally do it with your eyes closed...just watch out for your fingers!  Good luck!


X2
We give most of ours there


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 22, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I've found that the easiest place to give a SQ injection is somewhere over the rib cage.  It's easy to use the hair to pull up a 'tent' of skin and just slip the needle in.   Of course, I didn't really factor in the 'angora' part of this goat, lol.  All that fiber might make it a bit more difficult to see what you're doing, but after you've done it a few times you can literally do it with your eyes closed...just watch out for your fingers!  Good luck!



Thanks - headed out to try this right now... Yes, all the hair is a challenge - can't see what I'm doing! I even went all the way through the "tent" and out the other side with one injection. Poor Peaches is my lab buddy as I learn to give goat shots. Neither of us are enjoying the anxiety of giving and receiving penicillin. She used to be excited to see me come out to the barn.


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## RN2Cowgirl (Jan 22, 2016)

Shepherd Moon said:


> I have a 15-yr old angora goat who has had worsening problems. (I suspect she has CAE; over the past year she's developed
> 
> A few things: sounds like Listeriosis, she needs prompt IM of penicillin,  also thiamin. The eye socket since it has a lot of puss, if you have the biomyocin use a cc to rinse the sole area. I have had ever issues with my alpacas. Hydration is important.  If you can tube her for force fluids do so. If not use a 60 cc syringe and slowly squeeze in the cheek so she can swallow.
> 
> ...


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## Latestarter (Jan 22, 2016)

RN2Cowgirl said:
			
		

> A few things: sounds like Listeriosis, she needs prompt IM of penicillin, also thiamin. The eye socket since it has a lot of puss, if you have the biomyocin use a cc to rinse the sole area. I have had ever issues with my alpacas. Hydration is important. If you can tube her for force fluids do so. If not use a 60 cc syringe and slowly squeeze in the cheek so she can swallow.
> 
> This site has also the of helpful info
> Godspeed!!
> http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html



Greetings @RN2Cowgirl  from the front range in Colorado  ! Glad you joined us!


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 22, 2016)

Thanks for the suggestions! Let me run down the list:

1. The injectable thiamine (vitamin B1) certainly won't hurt her, but I'll need to order it online (my feed store doesn't carry it). I'll also see if I can find an B complex pills at the "human store" tonight since it will be next week before I receive an online order. Pumping up her vitamin B isn't a bad idea.
2. I'm already doing 2cc's of penicillin twice a day (4cc's total, whereas the treatment for Listeriosis for a 60lb goat is 3.6cc's) so I've got that one covered. (I'm going in subcutaneously instead of IM because she doesn't have much meat on her bones, I can't find a good spot through all her hair, and I'm really scared of hitting a vein, which I read causes "instant death".)
3. I'm rinsing the eye daily with penicillin, rather than biomycin for two reasons: first and foremost, my feed store only had penicillin, and second, because I read (somewhere) not to use both penicillin and biomycin at the same time. 
4. More hydration. Always a good thing! It's cold (for Los Angeles) and right now nobody in the barn is drinking as much as they normally do because they aren't hot and thirsty. I'll go offer her some luke warm water in a minute, and I suspect she'll like it.

Listeriosis? I'm guessing not because she's been on a timothy pellet diet all her life, plus a bag of alfalfa available as free feed wherever she wants it. It's dry, clean, covered and off the ground, but both goats prefer their timothy pellets, which they get fresh twice a day. The only other foods she eats are bananas, apples or raspberries as "pill pockets" for her daily aspirin (325mg) and MSM with glucosamine.

Whether Listeriosis, CAE, or a stroke (which was my initial guess when all this started), with the addition of some vitamin B1, I can cover all the bases.

I'll keep you updated on my progress!


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## Latestarter (Jan 22, 2016)

Maybe a little sugar, honey, maple syrup, molasses, karo syrup in some warm water? might make it even more palatable?


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## Latestarter (Jan 22, 2016)

Now that I think about it, real/raw honey is a very good anti-bacterial... maybe some applied to that busted horn root and around the eye socket?


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 22, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Maybe a little sugar, honey, maple syrup, molasses, karo syrup in some warm water? might make it even more palatable?



A splash of apple juice did the trick! I didn't even need the syringe - both goats downed a half bucket "warm apple cider" (95% water/5% juice). Later tonight I'll put away my healthy goat and focus on hydrating just the sick one.
:/


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## Shepherd Moon (Jan 22, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Now that I think about it, real/raw honey is a very good anti-bacterial... maybe some applied to that busted horn root and around the eye socket?


BOY that sounds sticky - and it would never come out of mohair! (And might attract bugs?!?) The horn is dry and scabby, so unless someone tells me I'm wrong (?), I figured we are fighting bacteria and infection with the penicillin injections, and I'd leave the clean, dry scab alone. (?)

Another thought... Sunflower seeds? I supplement them to my chickens over the winter for extra protein and fat, so I've got 50-lbs of them in the barn right now. Turns out they are very high in thiamine too! If I'm doing my math correctly, I'd have to feed her 13 lbs of sunflower seeds to equal one 100mg injection of thiamine, so it won't replace ordering Fortified Vitamin B Complex online, but maybe a cup a day would be overall beneficial to her health? (I've always kept my goats on the plainest of plain diets because my boy-goat had a urinary blockage in his youth. I was told there's one philosophy to grow goats fast and meaty which includes lots of yummy stuff, and a completely different diet for pets that you want to keep around for the long haul, so I'm not sure where sunflower seeds sit on that spectrum?)


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## Shepherd Moon (Feb 9, 2016)

3 and a half weeks later... to finish the journal.

Peaches is doing pretty well!

1. Her eye has made an amazing recovery! I originally thought the entire eye was punctured or missing. Later I thought I could still see a rounded orb inside, but solid white. Now I'm still pretty sure she's permanently blind in that eye, but it looks almost like a normal eye again (except it used to be pale blue and looks more brown now?). Here's what I did for 5 (and a half) days:
   a. 2mL injections of Penicillin G Procaine (300,000 units per mL) (from my feed store) subcutaneously in the neck or shoulders twice a day.
   b. plus once a day I rinsed the eye with buffered sterile saline (from the drug store) and then squirted about 1mL more Penicillin into the eye using a syringe (without a needle attached).

2.  I was able to remove her broken horn with heavy duty garden shears. (It was 80% broken off already. There was a little bleeding and I put Multi+Care Liquid Wound Care on it.)

3. She still has arthritis and needs help to stand, which I do twice a day, while I'm out feeding, but then she spends several hours walking slowly around the barn. She gets a daily dose of one 325mg aspirin (from the drug store), one glucosamine HCI 1500mg with MSM 1500mg (from costco). I give her the pills inside fruit slices (banana, apple, strawberry), sort of like "pill pockets" and she loves the treats and attention.

4. I also started giving her one B-Complex 50 supplement (grocery store) in a pill pocket just for a little boost every day.

I'm hoping to get her back to being able to stand on her own again, and I think that's a reasonable goal as long as she doesn't have another major incident. She's never going to be a spring kid again, but she's doing okay!


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 9, 2016)

So glad she's doing better.  She's lucky to have you on her side!


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## Shepherd Moon (Feb 9, 2016)

BTW - thank you everyone for all the help and support! I appreciated all the suggestions and good wishes. I learned better techniques and received great ideas that I incorporated in different ways.

And a big thank you to the unknown "Straw Hat Kikos", who apparently hasn't been active here for several years. Just having his old posts available on this site gave me hope - and a plan.


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## Latestarter (Feb 9, 2016)

Hope that doesn't mean you're leaving our little community until "the next time" something comes up. Hope you'll stick around and share pics/stories/updates with us every now and again. Don't shoot me, but when I looked at the pic, first thing that came to mind was "Pet Semetary" by Stephen King.    I AM glad she's doing better! And under your care, I hope she's there for you for quite a long time to come.


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## Shepherd Moon (Feb 9, 2016)

LOL - and eww!!!

Apparently I need to contribute less gruesome pictures...


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