# Don't tell ME that CAE is "no big deal"



## DonnaBelle (Mar 23, 2013)

I put down a ff doe this morning.  She had give birth 24 hours ago to a single doeling.

Her udder was hard as a rock, she had severe mastitis, wouldn't eat or drink and couldn't get up.

She was starting to show symptoms of pneumonia as well.

An unscrupulous breeder just outside Tulsa, Oklahoma who raises Nubians sold me a goat 3 years ago and didn't bother to mention she had CAE.  So now every animal in my herd has it.

Some of my goats have the following symptoms of this disease:

Annie has an ongoing type of pneumonia that can make a doe barren, and cannot be cured.

Hot, large knobby knees on my Lenora, that causes her pain when she walks.

Large hot hard udder with no milk and two kids to feed.  She kidded one month ago and I have been bottle feeding the kids.

I have been trying to "manage" this disease for three years and I am so discouraged and really mad.

I am trying to decide if I want to give up goats altogether.  Which means I have to either sell my herd to another unsuspecting person who wants to raise goats, or

cull all my goats whom I love very much.

Or, keep the ones I've got, rearrange my whole barn/ranch setup and catch all the future babies.

OH, and by the way, OSU and Langston tell me that 80% of Dairy goats in the USA carry the antibodies  for  this disease and can become symptomatic (have issues) with it

DonnaBelle


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## alsea1 (Mar 23, 2013)

Oh lord. That's just awful.
Bad breeder that screwed you over.
I am taking my herd in for testing. I'm not sure what to do if anyone comes up positive.
My new buckling is cae, johnes and cl free. 
As breeders we all need to step up and try to get this scurge under control.


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## ragdollcatlady (Mar 23, 2013)

I am so sorry Donnabelle! What a heartbreaking situation! I don't have any words that will really help, but my heart is just so sad for you!


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm so sorry DonnaBelle. I really am. That's horrible!

That's what I say to people all the time! People make CL to be an evil disease and most of those people say CAE is just fine and dandy and all will be ok. CAE is a horrible disease. It is awful.


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## alsea1 (Mar 23, 2013)

I just did some research. Yikes. 
You can spend a small fortune trying to do the right thing here.
I am real sorry about what has happened to you and your herd.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Mar 23, 2013)

*Aww so sorry! How horrible. Fortunately most of the breeders out here test, and I made sure mine were all clean before I bought them. *


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 23, 2013)

Yeah, well, I did a lot of reading about dairy goats before I bought my first two.  Turns out they were CAE positive too.

They were not from the same breeder but the same NE area of Oklahoma.

Unfortunely a lot of the people in this area of Oklahoma are not all that caring about what happens to the goats, have more interest in making money than having a disease free herd, and to tell the truth, are low information goat owners.

Also, the tests for CAE are not all that reliable.  You can get false-positives and vice-versa.  A goat can be infected, but the test can show negative, and no symptoms for 2-8 years, and then all of a sudden, you have a goat with pneumonia that cannot be treated successfully, enlarged painful knees, and worst of all in my opinion, hard, no milk udder.

The doe I put down this morning had every symptom, and I have does that have no symptoms whatsoever.

The only way you can be ABSOLUTELY SURE AND POSITIVE YOU DO NOT HAVE CAE FREE GOATS IS TO FEED HEAT TREATED COLUSTRUM OR COW COLUSTRUM AND PASTEURIZED MILK.

Also, you MUST keep does and bucks separated, by a double fence, and scrub all feeders and waterers and make sure they are sanitized before you start your CAE free herd.

CAE is most prevelent in diary goats. 

I'm not posting all this to make anyone feel sorry for me, I want everyone to know about this disease as it is devestating, and for people who want to have a herd, 5-50 goats, it is overwhelming.

I'm going to work toward it's eradication in my goat herd, but it's going to take a long time, and a heck of a lot of work.

DonnaBelle


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 23, 2013)

CAE is transmitted thru ALL body fluids not just milk. That means snot, urine, etc. Any and all body fluids. CAE is not a manageable disease whatsoever.


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## alsea1 (Mar 23, 2013)

It is the aids of the goat world.
If only there were a vaccine for it.

I am now a bit freaked out about my Goldie.  Could CAE be what is going on with her.
She breaths like she has a stuffy nose.   Other than that she appears to be fine.

Yeah. Thats what I got from my reading. The tests are not all that conclusive.  It seemed to me that the testing would have to be an ongoing process and all bets are off if you brought an animal in from somewhere else.

I have decided I will not breed outside goats. Just not worth it.

I am not sure, but I think the goat dairy down the road had some cae positive goats.  I will def. not be getting any goats from there.  But this person sells off tons of kids every season.  Yikes.

Do any of you think that maybe this should be a reportable disease or anything intense like that?


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 23, 2013)

A reportable disease.

Yes, that's just what I have been thinking the past few days.  If it were something that could be so devestating to cattle, you can bet it would be reportable.

Or if it could humans.  Which of course, it could possibly do so sometime down the road.  Who knows??  It's a "will of the wisp" type of disease and since it effects goat it doesn't get as much press as a cattle disease.

Oh, and by the by, there is a form of CAE which effects sheep too.

If the only way you could get milk was from goats, you'd be hearing a lot more noise on the subject.

DonnaBelle


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## SkyWarrior (Mar 23, 2013)

Yes, it is a big deal.  And I'm sorry to hear your herd got it.  It is a pain to eradicate.

I wish I had the money to have CAE tests on my goats, but right now, I don't.  I'm planning on this in the next year or so.


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## bonbean01 (Mar 23, 2013)

Oh...I am so very sorry DonnaBelle   that is just horrible and putting down your girl this morning had to be so hard...and now thinking about your whole herd and what it will take to get rid of this awful disease...overwhelming 

And sadly, you are right...if this was dairy cows, it would be taken more seriously.  So many people have cow's milk allergies and depend on goat's milk...it should be taken more seriously.

Just wondering...can people get ill from drinking the milk from a goat with this disease?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 23, 2013)

No they can't. That's why alot of people say CL is bad and CAE is ok. They say well with CAE people don't get hurt and can't get anything but with CL people can get it. CAE doesn't do anything to people but is AWFUL to the goats. It is impossible to control and CAE goats should be culled imo. CL is not a big deal, does not hurt or mess goats up, buuut some have said it can go to people. Thing is, it gives you a little rash for a few days and that's it. It does nothing else and it is SSSOOOOO rare it's not even worth considering. Also, it only if the CL puss gets inside of you. So not a biggie and no big deal to the goats. CAE though, horrible to the goats but because people can't get anything from it, they say it's no big deal.

Wish people did research and figured stuff out for themselves instead of just thinking they are right because they said it. GAH


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## Symphony (Mar 23, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> No they can't. That's why alot of people say CL is bad and CAE is ok. They say well with CAE people don't get hurt and can't get anything but with CL people can get it. CAE doesn't do anything to people but is AWFUL to the goats. It is impossible to control and CAE goats should be culled imo. CL is not a big deal, does not hurt or mess goats up, buuut some have said it can go to people. Thing is, it gives you a little rash for a few days and that's it. It does nothing else and it is SSSOOOOO rare it's not even worth considering. Also, it only if the CL puss gets inside of you. So not a biggie and no big deal to the goats. CAE though, horrible to the goats but because people can't get anything from it, they say it's no big deal.
> 
> Wish people did research and figured stuff out for themselves instead of just thinking they are right because they said it. GAH


I think it would be wise for the different Goat associations to lobby Washington or States and the Agriculture Department to monitor and help control this disease.  If it does mutate and become multi species it would get out of control fast and then it would be like the Mad Cow outbreak in the UK were many herds had to be eradicated.
Its like Scrappies with Sheep, lets nip this thing in the bud.  It takes producers like you Men and Women to get the word out and marshal people together to get the word out and the media interested.

Just my two cents.


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## dhansen (Mar 24, 2013)

So, is there a good source to learn how to draw blood for the test for CAE and CL?  I want to learn and take care of this asap!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Mar 24, 2013)

dhansen said:
			
		

> So, is there a good source to learn how to draw blood for the test for CAE and CL?  I want to learn and take care of this asap!


*

I had the vet show me and now I do it all on my own, it's really not difficult at all, and each test is only $6 or so and another $6 for shipping.

I did pay more initially, but bought my goats from one of the best "premier" breeders down here and her whole herd is tested clean every year. I think it was worth the investment in the goats. I've also tested them since I got them just to be safe and every single one has repeatedly been negative for CAE and CL. I think it's more of an ongoing type thing, like one other poster said, I would feel secure knowing they were truly negative after repeat negative results say a few months apart.*


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## Queen Mum (Mar 24, 2013)

Oh Donnabelle, I am so sorry to hear about the CAE.   It is tragic to have to put down any of your animals and I know you really love your goats.   This must just be devastating.  CAE is awful...


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## kstaven (Mar 25, 2013)

The sad but true problem here is most goats are seen as a disposable commodity. The answer doesn't come in the form of another vaccine. The answer comes in the form of better animal management and the will to test and cull on the part of the whole goat community.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 25, 2013)

kstaven said:
			
		

> The sad but true problem here is most goats are seen as a disposable commodity. The answer doesn't come in the form of another vaccine. The answer comes in the form of better animal management and the will to test and cull on the part of the whole goat community.


Agree 100%


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 25, 2013)

Yup, and it seems like common sense but we all know common sense is not all too common.  I am so sorry DonnaBelle and thank you so much for sharing this.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 25, 2013)

I am very sorry to hear about your troubles with CAE, DonnaBelle.  I don't mean to take anything away from your post, and it truly sad you're having such difficulties with it.    Perhaps the person who sold you the goats didn't know about them being positive?  Unless your one positive doe is the mother of all the other ones, I seriously doubt she passed CAE to them just living in the herd with them.  

I have a slightly differing opinion of CAE. It CAN be managed, but some animals handle the disease differently.   I don't like the disease, and I don't think people should knowingly let CAE+ animals raise their kids, since it is so easy to prevent.  I did freak out big time when I found out my original doe was CAE+. I thought it was the end of the world.  My doe is asymptomatic, and her dam lived to be 13 and was also asymptomatic.  Not all animals who are positive (or test positive) show signs, which is why some people don't do anything to try to eradicate it.  

I pull all kids from my positive doe at birth, and I currently own her 2 year old daughter who is CAE-.  They are housed together, and I've never had a problem.  If my doe were to ever show signs of the disease that would cause her pain, I would have her euthanized and not sell her to be someone else's problem.   

Not everyone knows to test for the disease, and we all need to do our own due diligence when purchasing animals.  I didn't know about it when I first got my doe, but now I do.  

Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro.  Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.  

CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal.  CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days".  Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis.  http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf It's also MUCH, MUCH easier for animals to pass along CL than it is to pass along CAE.  

I do believe all positive animals should have their kids pulled at birth in order to prevent the spread of the disease. It's easy to do, and it works.  It's up to the buyer to inquire about health testing, because most people who have CAE+ goats don't even know it.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 25, 2013)

> Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro.  Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.
> 
> CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal.  CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days".  Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis.  http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf


No I am not. I believe you may be. Do your research and talk to vets. It IS transmitted thru all body fluids NOT just milk. As I always say, do your research. Talk to vets. It is transmitted thru all body fluids not just milk. 

Yes it is zoonotic but it does not do us harm. On the SUPER SUPER rare chance something happens it is a little rash. It doesn't do much if anyhting to you and it really doesn't hurt the animal. CAE is very bad to the animal. Very bad. And yes CL can go internal but that is not just normal plain CL. Internal CL is very serious and all animals no matter what should be culled if they have internal CL imo. All animals. Internal CL is very bad and does do harm to the goat.

Doesn't damage meat. Doesn't damage milk unless it got in it which I don't see that happening often, or at all really. 

If CL goes internal it is pretty easy to see and does not go unnoticed.

CL is just a bacteria that is in the lymph system that every once and a while the body gathers enough of it and expels it. Not a big deal. Again, really do the research and see for yourself.

ETA: CL is incredibly easy to control. Extremely easy really. CAE? No it is not. All body fluids at any time vs one body fluid once every six months to only once in a lifetime.


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## babsbag (Mar 25, 2013)

dhansen said:
			
		

> So, is there a good source to learn how to draw blood for the test for CAE and CL?  I want to learn and take care of this asap!


Where are you in California?  If you are anywhere close to Redding I have a friend that will come and teach you. You can send the blood into UC Davis for the tests.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 25, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> > Straw Hat Kikos, I do believe you're misinformed about CAE being transmitted through all body fluids. If that were the case, then pulling kids at birth and feeding pasteurized colostrum and milk would be a moot point, since it would have been transferred to the kids invitro.  Colostrum/milk is currently the only known cause of transmission, but people speculate and sometimes pass on incorrect information.
> >
> > CL, IMO is worse than CAE because it is zoonotic (which means it IS transferrable to humans), and it damages meat and milk, and many times can go unnoticed if abcesses are internal.  CL does not just "give you a rash for a few days".  Here's an article on a study done on humans with lymphadenitis.  http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf
> 
> ...


Please find me any article that proves CAE is transmitted through all bodily fluids. There is speculation that there may be a *chance* of transmission through blood, but the main transmission is through colostrum and milk shortly after birth.  It's more rare for adult goats to spread or get the disease outside of lactation.  If it was 100% positively spread through all bodily fluids, it would be impossible to prevent a kid from catching the disease by pulling them at birth and bottle feeding them.  

And CL is very commonly internal, and is not seen until slaughter.  Many sheep have internal abscesses and there are no signs.  Goats can also have CL abscesses in the udder that can go unseen.

About CL transmission from WADDL :


> Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, the bacterium that causes the disease CL, is spread from animal to animal primarily through contact with *material from subcutaneous abscesses (pus) or fomites (inanimate objects) contaminated with abscess material. The organism can survive several months in the soil and environment, remaining a source of infection*. Though much less common than visible subcutaneous abscesses, *abscesses may also form in the lungs and abdominal organs as a result of spread of the organism within the animal via blood or lymph*. When abscesses are present in the lungs, *the organism may be transmitted through respiratory secretions (nasal discharge or coughing*). In rare cases, *C. pseudotuberculosis may be present in the milk.* Although CL is not sexually transmitted, it is recommended to avoid natural breeding of animals with abscesses.


I really don't want to get into a debate on opinions of the diseases.  It's up to each owner to research it and do what's best for them. I just wanted to point out a few different conclusions on the diseases.  CL isn't something to dismiss as "not a big deal".  Both diseases are manageable, and responsible management should include doing everything possible to avoid spreading the diseases.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 25, 2013)

Conclusive studies are limited right now because it seems that the issue with CAEV has not previously been a hot topic, but it is becoming one so I bet we will start to learn more as it is researched further.   A definitive method of transfer is through milk but there is growing evidence that it is present in *saliva *and can be passed *in utero* or *during birth*.

Not that this is the be all, end all to this but here is at least something as a point of reference for this from the U.S. Department of Agriculture.  
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/emergingissues/downloads/prcaevinfosheet.pdf

I personally don't want CL or CAEV in my herd, both for my animals health and for ours.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 25, 2013)

It definitely needs to be studied further. WADDL says transmission to/from adult animals is rare.  Merck says "Unlikely methods of transmission, as indicated by experimental studies, include in utero transmission to the fetus, infection of the kid during parturition, and infection through breeding or embryo transfer."


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 25, 2013)

OK, guys, here's my delimma:

I have research from Joan Dean Rowe, DVM, PHD- Food Animal Reproduction & Herd Health
                               Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, University of California
                                Davis, California 95616.


I don't have the ability to scan this information which I received from my Vet.  It also has a lot of other reading materials recommended at the end of the article.

I will be glad to mail it to someone who can scan these articles and post them on here for references.

If someone will do this, you can PM me your address and I'll send a copy.

DonnaBelle


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 25, 2013)

Ok guys, I've got this article in an envelope and ready to mail to barred rock mamma.

She's going to scan it and post it on here for all to read.

DonnaBelle


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks


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## BlondeSquirrel04 (Mar 26, 2013)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I am very sorry to hear about your troubles with CAE, DonnaBelle.  I don't mean to take anything away from your post, and it truly sad you're having such difficulties with it.    Perhaps the person who sold you the goats didn't know about them being positive?  Unless your one positive doe is the mother of all the other ones, I seriously doubt she passed CAE to them just living in the herd with them.
> 
> I have a slightly differing opinion of CAE. It CAN be managed, but some animals handle the disease differently.   I don't like the disease, and I don't think people should knowingly let CAE+ animals raise their kids, since it is so easy to prevent.  I did freak out big time when I found out my original doe was CAE+. I thought it was the end of the world.  My doe is asymptomatic, and her dam lived to be 13 and was also asymptomatic.  Not all animals who are positive (or test positive) show signs, which is why some people don't do anything to try to eradicate it.
> 
> ...


Some observations in reading that article are that there were 12 cases in 20 years. Some of which had no contact with farm animals, and others had a little too much contact with abscesses in which they squeezed them with bare hands. None of which were from hobby goat owners.

I'll take my chances with CL. CAE....no way.


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 26, 2013)

Well, I think we can all agree that CAE and CL are both something we want to outsmart and avoid if at all possible.

I am a great believer in being armed with knowledge.  Now a lot of folks perfer to "wing it".  I realize that it may take some time to have a CAE free herd.  I'm just resolved to do the best I can for my goats.

I have one goat bred that i know her due date.  I'm going to pull her kid/kids and bottle feed them.

I have two others that were "pasture bred" and I don't know for sure when they will kid.

In future, the "pasture bred" situation will not occur.  DH is fencing in the 6 acres for my herd sire with 5 strands of high tensile hot wire electric fence on cedar posts.  If he can get through it, he's going to the sale barn and I will just rent a sire in future.  

If possible, let's listen to all sides of the discussions on these two awful diseases and help each other if we can.

DonnaBelle


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 26, 2013)

BlondeSquirrel04 said:
			
		

> I'll take my chances with CL. CAE....no way.


Different strokes for different folks.  I'd rather go with the disease that is not transmissible to humans at all and is easily preventable.


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## Mf628 (Mar 29, 2013)

So it seems that the grand majority say to pull the kids and bottle feed. 

Okay that's no problem with dairy goats... What about meat goats? I just purchased a junior doe last spring who may be CAE positive. I'll know for sure once she gets tested. I specifically bought her because the breeder bragged about the excellent mothering instinct bred into their does. What would I do with the doe if I did pull the kids? Milk her?

Would it be worth raising on prevention just to stick her back into the herd?


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## DonnaBelle (Mar 29, 2013)

You have just presented the BYH group with the BIG QUESTION to the bottom line.

I have the same problem.  If I pull kids, then let them eat from the same feeders, live in the same barn, use the same pastures, etc. WILL THEY BECOME INFECTED THROUGH CONTACT?   Even though they did not come into close contact with mom??

There are researchers who believe that this disease can be passed by means other than mother's milk and colustrum.  Such as saliva.

If that is true, and a breeder wants a CAE free herd, then they must keep the CAE positive goats in a location apart from the CAE infected goats.

There are also those that believe that the only way for it to be transmitted is from milk and colustrum. Period.

It is also known that a goat may be tested by 4 different testing FACILITIES (blood drawn and sent to 4 different labs) and 3 tests come back negative, and one come back positive.  This experiment was done by Oklahoma State University.

Plus a goat may be tested for 8 years in a row, come back negative for 7 years, the eighth year come back positive.  So the tests ARE NOT FOOLPROOF.

I'm afraid this whole situation is what they call a ROYAL CONUNDRUM, in other words, what the @#$% to do??

Each of us has to look our our own situation.  I have considered getting rid of all my goats, cleaning and scrubbing my barn, letting it sit empty for 6 months and starting over with Nubian goats that I know are CAE free, have been raised by a friend that I can trust.

Or perhaps get some Spanish Goats, meat goats, because they do have a much smaller instance of CAE for some reason.  Dr. Sparks thinks it's because milk goats are kept for years on the same farm, while the meat goat turnover is much higher.

DonnaBelle


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## alsea1 (Mar 29, 2013)

This may not be a popular stance, but if I had a goat cae positive, I would cull no matter what.
This is the only way to get rid of the disease.


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## kstaven (Mar 29, 2013)

What is the reality here?

Jury is still out on if the disease can be passed through a vector other than milk.
Testing is unreliable.
Can be carriers and never show symptoms.

Bottom line is it a crap shoot.

Personally I lean on the side of culling. Canada is bovine TB and brucellosis free because we culled everything across the country at one point. It may sound ruthless but it was effective.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 30, 2013)

I agree too. Culling is the best way to get rid of anything. Not more vaccines or ways to manage bla bla bla. Culling has been and always will be the best way to go.


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## BarredRockMomma (Apr 4, 2013)

Here is the article from DonnaBelle. If you can't read it send me a PM with your email and I can send it to you.























ok it is small so I will play with my computer to see it I can enlarge it and still post it.


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## SheepGirl (Apr 4, 2013)

When you scan it onto your computer, is it in PDF format or is it a picture (.jpg)?


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## DonnaBelle (Apr 4, 2013)

Wow, I'm so happy, techies are here to help!!

DonnaBelle


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## Queen Mum (Apr 4, 2013)

I don't think complete "cleansing" and "culling" is the answer.  It is impractical. Too many false negatives and too many false positives.  AND too many questionable people who will cheat.   

I watched Korea take 1 million pigs almost all of them negative for hoof and mouth and dump them in a big pit and fill it in with dirt.  Those poor pigs were buried alive to cull for hoof and mouth.     A bunch of people dug up the top layer and carried the pigs away to "save them".   Some for meat, some for breeding some because they were sad for the pigs.   Some of the pigs just dug themselves out and walked away.  Did the culling work?     

I think the real answer is attrition and sane culling. Along with careful testing...

Also developing animals that are resistant to the disease and finding treatment for the disease.  Our resources are precious, lets protect them...


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## kstaven (Apr 6, 2013)

Korea looks like a pretty extreme and sadistic case.


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## DonnaBelle (Apr 6, 2013)

I've been watching the TV stories regarding N.Korea.  

Lets get down on our knees and thank God we were born in the USA.

They starve their people and buy bullits.

DonnaBelle


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 6, 2013)

Thought I had something to say.  Decided not.


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## Queen Mum (Apr 11, 2013)

I was talking about South Korea when they had to deal with culling for Hoof and Mouth in Pigs!   It was awful.   

But North Korea is worse, far worse.  I pray every day for them...


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## BarredRockMomma (Apr 12, 2013)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> When you scan it onto your computer, is it in PDF format or is it a picture (.jpg)?


I have it in both forms.


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## animalcrackeracres (Apr 24, 2013)

So sorry for your loss DonnaBelle, but in my opinion I don't know if culling all goats with CAE is the answer. It depends on why people have goats in the first place. Pets or companions? breeders for business? It is not the goats fault they have the disease, so culling an outward perfectly healthy goat doesn't seem right. And some of them don't even really show any signs. Some people don't want them to breed, they just want them as pets, so culling every goat with CAE might stop the disease but would kill a lot of innocent goats. I have three goats, all does, one with CAE. I don't plan on breeding anyone, and the doe would have been killed if I hadn't bought her. She is a little stiff in the back legs some mornings but seems to be very happy to be alive, runs and plays around the pasture with the others and puts her head in my lap for an afternoon snooze. 

Geez, I sound like one of those crazy PETA people who protest KFC and I promise you I am not one of those, but to me the logic is like say if we kill all humans who have AIDS there would be no more AIDS in the world correct? Killing cattle for food production is one thing but goats are closer to dogs or horses than cows. I agree there needs to be something done but not culling.

Everything;s going to die of something: I rescue ferrets part time, and the species commonly develops adrenal disease which is a type of cancer that shortens their life to four or five years. I just love them for the short time they are here and try to comfort them when their time comes. Donnabelle if you want to start a herd over over could you maybe take a chance and sell your goats as pets only and try to educate the owners on the disease? or is there a goat rescue around? even 4H clubs or projects.  I know a unscrupulous breeder could press them back in service again anyway, that is always a risk. Maybe it's just me; when I was 12 I _did_ buy a gerbil in a pet store once just to save it from being eaten by a snake 

Goats are useful for more than just milk and meat, I havn't had to weed around my property in forever! Or waste money and time planting flowers that will only bloom one year and then die- the goats showed me that was foolish


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## alsea1 (Apr 24, 2013)

Its just my opinion on the subject.
But I think it wise to try to erradicate this disease.
As goat breeders and fanciers it is our responsibility to try.
This cannot be achieved by keeping CAE positive goats at all for any reason.
Once again this is my opinion. I am not trying to dictate what others do in this situation.
Look at the mess that HYPP has become in the horse world. All because breeders couldn't resist the Impressive bloodline. Now look.


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## animalcrackeracres (Apr 24, 2013)

this is probably going to sound really stupid but how about neutering and spaying CAE positive goats IF it is shown to only pass through breeding. Weathers make nice pets, would a spayed female (if that even has a name or can be done) be a good pet? Or even giving a female birth control so she cannot breed, like they do to control herd size with the horses on Assateague Island in maryland?
This is a pet opinion only, I am not a breeder.

I thought about having a buck but knew I could not guarantee he wouldn't figure out a way to overcome the electric fence or the pens so I decided to not risk it. If I ever wanted the CAE free ones to have a baby I would try to research to find a CAE certified free buck and pay the stud fee.


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## animalcrackeracres (Apr 24, 2013)

And about burying the pigs alive, that is horrible. I couldn't resist looking down to the 50lbs pig sleeping at my feet and waking her up to give her some of my pretzels and remind her not all little pigs are so lucky as her, and I'm not talking about her matching PJ's


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 24, 2013)

animalcrackeracres said:
			
		

> this is probably going to sound really stupid but how about neutering and spaying CAE positive goats IF it is shown to only pass through breeding. Weathers make nice pets, would a spayed female (if that even has a name or can be done) be a good pet? Or even giving a female birth control so she cannot breed, like they do to control herd size with the horses on Assateague Island in maryland?
> This is a pet opinion only, I am not a breeder.
> 
> I thought about having a buck but knew I could not guarantee he wouldn't figure out a way to overcome the electric fence or the pens so I decided to not risk it. If I ever wanted the CAE free ones to have a baby I would try to research to find a CAE certified free buck and pay the stud fee.


CAE *may* be passed thru breeding but that's not at all the only way. CAE is passed thru all body fluids and really isn't a manageable disease. 

If it were me I wouldn't spay them, I'd seel as non-breedable pets or I'd eat them. But I am a breeder and don't do pets.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 25, 2013)

animalcrackeracres said:
			
		

> this is probably going to sound really stupid but how about neutering and spaying CAE positive goats IF it is shown to only pass through breeding. Weathers make nice pets, would a spayed female (if that even has a name or can be done) be a good pet? Or even giving a female birth control so she cannot breed, like they do to control herd size with the horses on Assateague Island in maryland?
> This is a pet opinion only, I am not a breeder.
> 
> I thought about having a buck but knew I could not guarantee he wouldn't figure out a way to overcome the electric fence or the pens so I decided to not risk it. If I ever wanted the CAE free ones to have a baby I would try to research to find a CAE certified free buck and pay the stud fee.


It is not passed only by breeding.

I have pets, breeders, and freezer fillers but none of them will be kept if CAE positive.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 25, 2013)

HYPP is an inherited disease, you can't remove a foal at birth and prevent HYPP.  You can remove kids at birth and prevent the spread of CAE.


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## alsea1 (Apr 25, 2013)

There has been evidence that CAE can be spread through direct contact to uninfected goats by ingesting saliva and feces through contaminated feed and water, or by inhalation of aerosolized virus.
This is why I would not risk keeping a goat that has been positively identified.  
I care about all of my goats however I would not hesitate to cull and by cull I mean euthanize if it came up positive.  It is just not worth losing all of my goats over,


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