# Feeding a buckling....Hey, cm!!!  Yoohoo!



## freemotion (Jul 7, 2010)

Just got my buckling for breeding this fall.  He is two months old and cute as a button.  Last year I got a 6-7 month-old La Mancha within a month or so of breeding season, and sold him afterwards.  Fed him on alfalfa hay and a handful of sprouted barley.

Now I have a boy for the first time that I will have for many months....maybe longer.  For the first time, I have to really pay attention to the urinary calculi potential.  

Shoulda waited and bought an older buckling this fall, but....I went to look, knowing he was only 2 months old, and.....well, you know how it goes.  He was too stinkin' cute!  And his mom was just gorgeous.  And they had ears. 

So......he was on second cut grass hay as his primary weaning food.  The lady said he got a handful of grain now and then, but he is on the thin side and she was in her nineties and I think she forgot to feed him mostly, so he just had the grass hay free choice.  I brought a bale home to ease his transition.  I started him on alfalfa pellets until I can get some second cut alfalfa, soon I hope.

Will alfalfa mix hay and a handful of barley be ok, or do I need to gets some ammonium choride to add?  He won't be getting much browse, just a little that I will cut and bring to him.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 7, 2010)

Since he is thin and only 2 months old, I would probably buy a goat feed with AC in it and feed it to him. My little guys get 1 measuring cup per day. The other thing you can do is get hydrangea root and give it to him twice a week. That is what I'm doing with my big boys. One of the boys wasn't doing a steady stream all the time and since he has been on the hydrangea, he now does. Did he have UC? Not really sure but the hydrangea seems to be working. I give my boys 1 teaspoon twice a week but they are Nigerian Dwarfs.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 7, 2010)

Hydrangea root?  Where do you buy it?  Or do you dig up some in your yard....I have some hydrangeas that could spare a few roots.  He is itty-bitty still, so the Nigi dose should be about right.

I hate manufactured feeds.....sheesh....I have never worried about recalls like my friends have to panic over....but if I must, I must.  I'd rather add some AC to the grain myself, though.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 7, 2010)

I recall a former member saying that she fed improperly balanced grain and alfalfa MIX hay, and had problems with urinary calculi.  When she went to STRAIGHT alfalfa, her UC problems went away, despite the fact that she was still feeding improperly balanced grain -- and apparently quite a bit of it.

What she essentially did there was get her goats' blood calcium levels up with straight alfalfa to the point that their bodies (their intestines, actually) were rejecting a lot of the phosphorus that was coming in through the grain.  With blood phosphates running on the low side and the body actually using it, her goats stopped filtering so much excess phosphorus through their kidneys into their bladders where it was combining with ammonia and magnesium to form struvite stones...AKA, urinary calculi.

Having said that...and I fear I'll regret saying _this_, but.....if his diet's primarily 2nd cut alfalfa hay, a handful of something with practically no calcium and a good bit of phosphorus probably isn't going to hurt much.  

STILL...what I'd recommend for supplementing a young buckling is properly Ca balanced feed, in pelleted form, with added ammonium chloride -- fed according to body condiiton -- and a legume hay that's good enough so that he doesn't require very much supplementation to begin with.

That's what I'd say.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 7, 2010)

That's what I figured, or hoped, you'd say.  I didn't want to change his feed too suddenly, but still am not sure if he is in danger already from his grass hay diet.  He was still nursing when I picked him up but only for part of the day, most of the time he was separated from his mama.

It is pretty close to impossible to find second cut alfalfa or to even buy alfalfa at all here unless I am filling my barn, but I may be able to get a single bale of first cut if I plead and beg.  That will hopefully get me through until I can fill up with this year's hay.   We are in a drought so it may be a while before anyone gets a second cutting. 

I'll go buy a bag of goat food to get him through.  If I can find it here.  Sheesh.  Anyone know if TSC carries anything useful?  I'm not generally impressed with their offerings.  I buy fencing, buckets, and injectibles from them, not feed.

Meanwhile, he is showing a fair amount of interest in the alfalfa pellets and eating the grass hay.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 7, 2010)

I bought the hydrangea root from a friend who orders from Frontier (online). I don't have hydrangeas here and just don't have the time to figure out how to "process" the root for consumption. I bet if you did a search online, you may find out how to use your own roots.

Even if you just use bagged feed for a little while just to get him where he should be and then switch him over to what you normally feed. Or if you are going to use the hydrangea, then go ahead and feed him what you normally feed.

I would keep up with the alfalfa pellets though.

Our Tractor Supply has Purina Goat Chow which is ok and does have AC in it. Not sure what other TSC's carry.


----------



## Henrietta23 (Jul 7, 2010)

I'll keep my eyes open for what's available down here. If we were to meet half way it might not be too bad!


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 7, 2010)

I wouldn't worry so much about the grass hay in terms of calculi.  Yeah, it's lots of phosphorus and very little calcium, but there's supposedly something about eating long stems that uses phosphorus.  Something about them having to make a lot of saliva?  I don't remember...

If you combine the grass hay with lots of grain, though...calculi.  Basically, if you're going to feed lots of grain -- even if the grain's balanced -- you really should be feeding good alfalfa hay.

Ask me how I know that.  :/

Personally, I also really like alfalfa pellets for bucks.  If the alfalfa you get isn't great, or isn't very nearly straight alfalfa...and if you find that he needs quite a bit of bagged feed supplementation to gain well and keep in good condition...then you might consider mixing alfalfa pellets with a goat ration like 'Goat Chow' or whatever..  That should keep the Ca ratio way above 2:1.

Heck, if you could find a good clover/timothy mix hay...that's good stuff.  Not _alfalfa_ good, but good..  Timothy is one of the only commonly baled grasses that has a favorable Ca ratio, and clover is a legume...analog to alfalfa in terms of Ca, but with a tad less protein.  I can get "grass hay" here that's got a whole lot of clover and timothy in it, and at grass hay prices..  Me likey.  

Overall, the goal is to keep plenty of calcium in the total intake.  Still doesn't guarantee he won't get UC as there *will* be phosphate in the blood (alfalfa has as much phosphorus as corn, pound for pound  ) but the chances will be much slimmer.  Every goat's metabolism is different, and there's always the possibility that something comes along (bacteria, for instance) and raises his urine pH to the point that he precipitate some struvite...or he decides he doesn't really like drinking water when it's HOT...things like that happen.  

Still...adequate calcium intake goes A LONG WAY toward preventing UC.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 7, 2010)

We are in a drought/heat wave here and I wish he were still with his dam.  I just went out with a bottle and not much hope that he'd take it, but he did suck a lot of it out of my cupped hand when I dribbled it into my palm, surprisingly.  I mixed 2 oz of pastuerized milk from my CAE doe (I'm still bottle feeding her daughter with it, she is within two days of the buckling's age) with 4 oz warm water and he sucked it down.  Of course, about half went on the ground through my fingers, but......

Waddaya think of bringing him bowls of watery milk?  I would never wean in a heat wave myself, but he is still no worse off here than where he was, with the sweet but very forgetful old lady who owned him.  I really think he skipped a bunch of feedings....comparing him to my dam-raised singleton and even to my bottle-raised singleton.  She needed him out right away as he had accidentally knocked her down recently and she lives alone.

So if I bring him watery milk to help him through, what schedule would you start him on so as to avoid feed-change scours, yet help him through the heat wave?  My thermometer in the sun says 108 right now, and yesterday peaked at 110.  We have so many babies of several species here for the first time and I am a nervous mama.  I want to get more fluids into him, but don't want scours!  I am thinking maybe 2:4 or 2:6 oz milk:water four times a day.....sound reasonable?  Or too much?  If he will drink it.

His poops are perfect now.  Lovely little separate black beans.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 7, 2010)

I've never liked the idea of bucket feeding milk, simply because of a little thing called 'the esophageal groove'..  

Sounds like a 70's disco group, but it's actually a little slot in the esophagus that either opens to allow food/water to drop into the rumen or shunts it right on past into the...omasum, I think?  One of those other stomachs...

The esophageal groove is stimulated to close when the kid nurses..  That keeps milk out of the rumen.  The question then becomes one of whether or not his esophageal groove will close if he drinks from a bucket.....and if it doesn't, and milk/milky-water goes directly into the rumen....what happens to it?  Does it do what it's supposed to do, or do the rumen bacteria have a hayday with it?

I dunno, honestly, but I have a feeling nature made that groove to keep milk out of the rumen _for good reason_.


That's me, though.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 7, 2010)

Got it!  NO MILK!  Thanks!!!!!!!!!

He really seems fine, I am always a bit OCD with any babies, especially the new ones.  I don't know him well enough yet to read his subtle signs.  Adding heat to moving stress to weaning stress to....whatever else is going on in that little goatie head of his.....

I'm probably the most wilted of anyone on this property.


----------



## mdoerge (Jul 7, 2010)

TSC carries Noble Goat feed - it is made by Purina, but it is pelleted and contains AC.  I have used it for my wether.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 7, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry so much about the grass hay in terms of calculi.  Yeah, it's lots of phosphorus and very little calcium, but there's supposedly something about eating long stems that uses phosphorus.  Something about them having to make a lot of saliva?  I don't remember...
> 
> If you combine the grass hay with lots of grain, though...calculi.  Basically, if you're going to feed lots of grain -- even if the grain's balanced -- you really should be feeding good alfalfa hay.
> 
> ...


I CAN get first cut timothy here quite easily, high quality horse hay....and one bale at a time.  The goats don't really care for it, though.  Horses are generally high-priced here and the feed stores and hay dealers cater to them.  As they should, they deserve to make the highest profit that they can, don't get me wrong.  But finding good second cut straight alfalfa is very, very difficult as it is not the best hay for horses.  And alfalfa has to be replanted often here, as the grass takes over,according to a farmer who kindly educated me as to why it was so hard to get.  He took pity on my last year and brought me 60 bales when he only sells by the tractor-trailer load.  The only advantage of living right on a major road that goes through many towns....I can sometimes talk people into dropping stuff off as they go by with stuff for a bigger client.

Sooooo....I think I'll try him on a handful of the bale of timothy I bought to get me through some rainy days (did we actually have rain in 2010???) without too much whining from the does.  He can choose between 2nd cut grass and 1st cut timothy and alfalfa pellets until I fill my barn.  Sigh.

Anyone here know anything about "CropSaver" treated hay?  The guy I was going to buy my good alfalfa from this year just bought a unit and was all excited about the chemicals he is spraying on his hay to make it dry in 2/3 the time and stay greener....So far I've heard "don't give it to babies" and "colic in horses!"


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I've never liked the idea of bucket feeding milk, simply because of a little thing called 'the esophageal groove'..
> 
> Sounds like a 70's disco group, but it's actually a little slot in the esophagus that either opens to allow food/water to drop into the rumen or shunts it right on past into the...omasum, I think?  One of those other stomachs...
> 
> ...


Thousands of calves and even kids and lambs are raised by bucket feeding.  Most dairies bucket feed because it's quicker and easier.  The calves grow just fine.  

Even bottle feeding improperly can cause "pot bellies" by not holding the bottle low enough (which is what causes the groove to close).  

IMO, bucket feeding doesn't hurt, but if this boy is already 8 weeks he should be fine being weaned.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Anyone here know anything about "CropSaver" treated hay?  The guy I was going to buy my good alfalfa from this year just bought a unit and was all excited about the chemicals he is spraying on his hay to make it dry in 2/3 the time and stay greener....So far I've heard "don't give it to babies" and "colic in horses!"


CropSaver is just propionic acid and citric acid.  Propionic acid is produced in the rumen of ruminants and in the intestines of horses.  There are NO issues with feeding hay that's been treated, as long as the hay is properly dried and does not mold after being baled.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 8, 2010)

Yeah, but that is what they said about Round Up.  Perfectly safe, breaks down, all natural!

Substances that occur naturally and those created in a lab or extracted with chemicals are not the same.  I am suspicious of this.  Call me a cynic.  I am one.

We bucket fed our calves when I was a kid, after a few days on the bottle.  They grew up big and strong and delicious!  I wasn't so much worried that he was weaned too young, just that the stress of the move was combined with ridiculous heat and I was thinking it would be good to get more fluids into him.  The milk was more to flavor the water to get him to drink more.  It is not a good time to stress his systems in any way.....so the debate I am having is....which is the worst/better of the evils?  Hmm...


----------



## jodief100 (Jul 8, 2010)

I do not know anything about Cropsaver specifically.  I do know the stuff they spray on tomatoes and bananas to "ripen" them only causes color change, no actual ripening.  

I would do more research but I suspect anything they spray to make it "stay greener" is just camouflage and nutritional value is still the same as it would be were it less green.  

Back on topic, sort of: 
I just put my bucks and wethers out in a new pasture that does not have as much browse as they have been getting, mostly grass (tall fescue at that).  I have been considering giving them some alfalfa or timothy hay to supplement.  Would anyone recommend that?


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 8, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Sooooo....I think I'll try him on a handful of the bale of timothy I bought to get me through some rainy days (did we actually have rain in 2010???) without too much whining from the does.  He can choose between 2nd cut grass and 1st cut timothy and alfalfa pellets until I fill my barn.  Sigh.


Timothy and alfalfa pellets sounds nice to me.

Bear in mind, though, that I said timothy was _favorable_ in terms of Ca...meaning, it's generally pretty close to 2:1 -- not >5:1 like alfalfa.  Sooooo, if you combine lots of grain with it, you may very well wind up in a bad way with him.

But, ya...timothy + alfalfa pellets should be good.  



			
				atk said:
			
		

> Thousands of calves and even kids and lambs are raised by bucket feeding.  Most dairies bucket feed because it's quicker and easier.  The calves grow just fine.
> 
> Even bottle feeding improperly can cause "pot bellies" by not holding the bottle low enough (which is what causes the groove to close).


I knew that was coming...from somebody.

I've seen at least a little research indicating that the esophageal groove is almost pavlovian in nature, and has less to do with the physical stance than is commonly believed..  What I read showed that, in some kids (or lambs, maybe?), the groove closes when they *see* the bottle and realize it's feeding time -- not when they latch on or crane their necks in a certain way.

Same thing could happen with bucket babies...when they see the bucket and realize it's milk time, the groove closes.

I dunno what to believe, frankly.  The _not knowing_ part is why I've never liked the idea of bucket feeding milk.  

Regardless, with freemo's new buckling, his esophageal groove almost certainly would NOT close in response to milky water, because it's nothing like what he's been doing in the past to make his close -- whether it's the physical stance of nursing or the stimulus of closing in on mama's teat or whatever.  The bucket, in his case, would be a totally different experience.

As such...I personally don't think it's a great idea to offer _this buckling_ milky water in a bucket.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

CropSaver doesn't *make* hay greener, it makes it dry quicker so it can be baled sooner.  As hay sits out in the sun drying it fades, just like it fades in storage.  

It's certainly your choice to not buy treated hay, but propionic and citric acid are certainly non-toxic as hay preservatives.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Yeah, but that is what they said about Round Up.  Perfectly safe, breaks down, all natural!


Who said that about Round Up?  And besides, Round Up isn't created to spray on hay meant to be eaten!


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 8, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> CropSaver doesn't *make* hay greener, it makes it dry quicker so it can be baled sooner.  As hay sits out in the sun drying it fades, just like it fades in storage.


Just read a bit about 'CropSaver'...it's not what you think it is, apparently.

What I see is a sprayer that's an add-on to the baler itself, meaning the preservative isn't being sprayed on the hay until juuuuuuuuust as it's going into the throat of the baler.  

It also said it allows you to bale up to 30% moisture...

My guess is it's called "CropSaver" because it allows you to bale when the hay's a little "casey," as they say around here....contains too much moisture.  

Like, either when it hasn't yet cured thoroughly and the weatherman just changed the forecast to include RAIN....or when it's already raked into windrows and starts collecting moisture out of the air in the evening, because the baler broke at 2pm and you had to run to town and talk the local farm equipment establishment into letting you "test drive" one you were "thinking of buying."  

Soooo...maybe the acid keeps it from molding.  

Thing is, unless it's baled and ricked in such a way that it can continue drying in the barn, I'm not sure that mold is the ONLY problem with hay that's baled up casey.

I dunno...


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 8, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True...it's sprayed on the corn and soybeans we eat, though.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Right..the hay is able to be baled quicker.  Maybe I worded it wrong.  Either way, I've known people who personally use it and feed it and it's never caused a problem.  The acids are naturally occuring acids, and not toxic (in this case at least, I guess an animal could OD on citric acid ).  The acid basically cures the hay after baling.  

We looked into it when I lived in Vermont, but that land was certified organic and it wasn't allowed for organic crops.  The product we wanted to use was straight propionic acid.....the acid that occurs in the rumens of animals, but it wasn't organic. Go figure.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

Here's  some good info on CropSaver in case anyone cares to read it.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 8, 2010)

atk said:
			
		

> The acid basically cures the hay after baling.


Well, no...not based on what I'm reading.  

What I just read here says these products basically keep hay from molding or heating..  That's it.  In other words, they just give the hay a chance to sweat and cure on its own without molding or heating up -- but they don't speed the curing along at all.

In fact, the article I read even mentions that the stuff "may" dissipate 4-6mos after the hay is baled, and -- if I'm reading correctly -- that they hay may begin to mold and heat up THEN if it's not sufficiently dry.  If you rick it tight like folks do around here, that would seem to be a real possibility.

I dunno...if my hay guy ever started using this stuff, I'd have to check it out a little more to know whether or not I'd be comfortable with it.  

All in all...I'd probably try it.  I'm no stranger to consuming copious amounts of preservatives myself, so what the hell.  Truth be told, I doubt I'll need embalming when I die.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's sprayed on corn and soybeans when the plants are fairly young, and it doesn't go on the direct grain we eat.  

Besides, propionic acid and citric acid are naturally occuring acids.  Glyphosate is not.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 8, 2010)

Just because something is naturally occurring does not automatically make it safe in every form.  I keep hay far longer than 4-6 months.  I'll let someone else experiment with it.  I tend to keep my animals for life, mostly.  I want it to be a long and healthy life, and far too many chemicals are tossed around like water.

As for Round Up....the manufacturer says it is safe.  They finally had to remove deceptive wording from the label in this country, then immediately marketed it in Europe with the same lies on the label.  Once that idea is imprinted in people's minds, they tend to believe it forever.  What about GMO alfalfa?  That'll be doused in Round Up, no doubt.

I don't eat soy nor do I feed it to my animals.  Corn is eaten in extreme moderation in my house, mostly organic, and is only given to animals who will have a very short life anyways.  Not to my goats.  Pigs and poultry, and again, in moderation.

CM, I hope to not be using a lot of grain with this buckling, but we will see.  His poo is ever so slightly clumpy today, so he is not getting the ounce or two I'd started him on anymore until it is cleared up.  Just free choice alfalfa pellets.  Wormed him today.  I started cutting leafy branches for him and will work him up with those....they can really put the weight on.  It is more work, but hey, that is what I signed up for.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jul 9, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Just because something is naturally occurring does not automatically make it safe in every form.  I keep hay far longer than 4-6 months.  I'll let someone else experiment with it.  I tend to keep my animals for life, mostly.  I want it to be a long and healthy life, and far too many chemicals are tossed around like water.


Well, you asked what it was so we explained it.    It's always your decision what you feed your animals.


----------



## freemotion (Jul 9, 2010)

I wasn't really clear on my CropSaver question.....I'd already done the google thing and read all the promotional materials that the company selling the products and equipment put out.  Of course they are going to say it is wonderful and safe.  I'd also researched propionic acid and already have some concerns about the way citric acid is produced (they don't squeeze wholesome and refreshing oranges and lemons to make it in the lab) and no longer use it in cheesemaking.  I would imagine the formula used on hay is even less pure than what I can buy for use as a food additive.

Two people told me already of vets who said don't give it to baby goats or alpacas, and another said it may be linked to increased incidence of stomach ulcers in horses, already an epidemic.  That was enough of a red flag for me, seeing as there are other choices available....so far.

What I wanted to know about it was....has anyone else come across anything about it that is of concern?  And the idea that the chemicals remain on the hay for months before evaporating, then when they do dissipate the hay can/will then mold is a MAJOR concern in my mind.

Anyhoo, I do appreciate the discussion on how to feed my buckling.  His appetite is picking up today, as is his enthusiasm....it was a few degrees cooler last night and early this morning, but it is gonna be another scorcher!


----------

