# Stuck baby procedure question



## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 15, 2011)

So as you all know we had a truly stuck baby.  I have been mulling it over in my head and I think one of the issues we had is that not only were we lacking room but we were lacking a way to shift the baby inside the uterus without tearing the uterus itself.   Basically when you pulled the neck/head it would catch on the uterus and get stuck. It wouldn't slide around because partially it was too bit and the uterus was kind of collapsed on the baby.   


This is a wish I'd tried it kind of thing but has anybody ever done a sterile douche basically  to replace the amniotic fluid to give you more maneuvering room?  I feel like (after the fact of course) if we had taken a lactated ringer and attached to a cut tube. Guided the tube to where the head was and had one person squeeze the bag to create a flood of fluid as the other was pulling the head it may have released that tension we couldn't get past.  We could hook the neck but simply could NOT get the head to flip. It's like it was kind of adhered to something. We assumed it was a uterine elasticity/size issue but I have to wonder if we didn't have things a big more slidey right at that moment if it wouldn't have shifted a bit.    



Anyway.  Just curious if anybody has tried something similar. If it worked/didn't work.  It's clearly a last minute thing because of the risk of flooding the babies lungs but at that point everything is kill/cure.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 15, 2011)

Hmm... not sure about effectively douching for replacing amniotic fluid, but I know that the vet sort of douched our little doeling Cali with this stuff to try to make it easier to remove her dead buckling.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 15, 2011)

There is never much room in the uterus. You might have been hitting the pelvic bone. Experience also makes a difference. My alpaca vet has gotten some large crias out of some very small uterus. I had a small doe that had one large kid this year. I got my alpaca vet out who is a petite woman with small hands and years of experience with maneuvering babies around. She was not able to get the kid out vaginally because the kid was literally too big. I had to take her in for a C-section. I suspect the car ride to the vet office is what ripped the uterus. We were able to save the kid but he tore the uterus in half. I had to put the doe down.

If you add liquid or even OB lube when the head is still in, you run the risk of it getting down their throat and they drown. I do keep a gallon of OB lube here in case I do need something to help lubricate but I have used it more for alpacas than goats.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 15, 2011)

Yeah the surgery vet is a good 60-90 min away and our vet strongly suggested not attempting a c-section due to the transportation requirements.   This was one of those "what if we had tried x" ideas and I'm trying to gather info for next time. The lady vet that came out was small arms/hands. Much smaller than mine. I'm from good German/Irish stock.  If I didn't have this stupid heart condition I'd be the wife that's hooked up to the plow when the horse is lame. 

I wanted to throw this out there since it popped into my head as a what if. Basically just in case it was a possibility for next time.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 15, 2011)

We are planning on a very strict breeding plan to (1)Prevent small framed does from kidding average to large kids, and  (2) make it easier on first timers by breeding them to either a smaller breed or buck that has provent to throw small kids.

We are also trying to find a 4-h group near by to work with when it comes time for ultrasounds... if we know in advance that a doe is going to have a larger single kid, then we can set up with a vet to have a C-Section done... Basically once her ligs are gone we would get her in the vehicle or trailer and drive to the vet(roughly an hour & a half away).  Don't want to lose any more goats(doe or kid) to kidding.


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## SheepGirl (Sep 15, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> We are planning on a very strict breeding plan to (1)Prevent small framed does from kidding average to large kids, and  (2) make it easier on first timers by breeding them to either a smaller breed or buck that has provent to throw small kids.
> 
> We are also trying to find a 4-h group near by to work with when it comes time for ultrasounds... if we know in advance that a doe is going to have a larger single kid, then we can set up with a vet to have a C-Section done... Basically once her ligs are gone we would get her in the vehicle or trailer and drive to the vet(roughly an hour & a half away).  Don't want to lose any more goats(doe or kid) to kidding.


I know in the cattle industry, farmers will breed first year heifers of a large-framed breed to an Angus bull because they are a relatively small-framed breed.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 15, 2011)

And clearly breed older, to a smaller male is the ideal.  However there are always unanticipated circumstances and right now I'm trying to plan for the worst and hope for the best.  Sometimes even if you take all the right steps, stuff happens and I'm looking for more straws to grasp when we hit that point.

I would like to avoid the experience gained by a string of dead goats. I kind of feel like I'm more interested in learning more about what other things we can try, etc.  I do NOT want to repeat what happened earlier this week, ever again.


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## PattySh (Sep 15, 2011)

I agree that petite hands are imperative to manipulating a kid in a goat especially a small one. My vet luckily has small hands and lots of experience. She will not let her husband  who is her partner come out on a goat delivery, she says his hands are too big.  Sasha(alpine/oberhasli) has needed her help 2 years running. Luckily tho quite scary the outcome has been good both times, once with a huge buckling and this year with large   twin doelings. This fall I am breeding her to a Nigerian buck with the hope that she can deliver on her own.  If not she won't be bred again. I intend to use the Nigerian on some of my first timers. Sasha was not young when bred for the first time she was about 2 nor very small. She just has big kids.  I have a powdered lube that mixes with warm water. We used that liberally with our twisted kids and it worked great to get them moving in the uterus. I also bought an OB snare after our first scary delivery and have had to use it twice since. Very handy item. 

Don't beat yourself up second guessing. You acted very compassionately,  did everything you could have for her, got her vet assistance when needed and removed her from agony. The ultimate in good care.


edited to add, we put the lube on our hands not infused into the uterus.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 15, 2011)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> And clearly breed older, to a smaller male is the ideal.  However there are always unanticipated circumstances and right now I'm trying to plan for the worst and hope for the best.  Sometimes even if you take all the right steps, stuff happens and I'm looking for more straws to grasp when we hit that point.
> 
> I would like to avoid the experience gained by a string of dead goats. I kind of feel like I'm more interested in learning more about what other things we can try, etc.  I do NOT want to repeat what happened earlier this week, ever again.


Unfortunately, that is what we have to do here in NH... there are so few vets that will take even 5 minutes out of their day to deal with you injured/sick/needing help goat.  We are filling our computer with so many files on worst case scenarios and how to treat the emergencies. Up here, you have to have backup plans for your backup plans... and sometimes you even require a backup plan for backup backup plan. Thankfully I think we finally have a vet to help us, but time will tell. We spent 3 months being passed around by vets... apparently they don't believe that there are NO livestock vets within a half hour from us  .  It never hurts to ask questions and build as many worst case scenario plans as possible, cause unfortunately, in today's world, you just can't rely on a vet to be there when you need them most.


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## PattySh (Sep 15, 2011)

I hear you on the waiting for a vet. My livestock vet is currently great and gets here within a 1/2 hr in an emergency, they always have a vet on call. I cross my fingers it's the  female vet if it's a kidding issue.  My small animal vet is challenging for availablity especially  for emergency surgeries currently.  The large animal vet will also step in for pain control or minor farm issues with dogs etc and did a rabies clinic for me for my dogs this year. I breed dogs and have to rely on the VERY expensive small animal hospital for emergency csections, orthopedics  etc. You can't walk in there without $1200-$1500 cash on hand or a way to get some cash quickly!Luckily that doesn't happen often.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 16, 2011)

I can see your point about smaller hands, but I will have to say, I have seen my husband pull kids and work with does and do a really good job.  But He has a lot of experience.  We have large breed, but the doe the OP has is the same breed we are working with. 

you were in the worst case situation. A too young doe carrying a single  buck.  Plus I didn't want to mention this on the other thread, I read that you said you were feeding her grain up until the middle of August, then you stopped feeding her grain.  In my opinion when feeding a meat bread, Feeding grain in the middle of the gestation(3rd and 4th months) can add to the problem. Dairy breeds don't seem to be quit as sensitive to this. Taking her off of grain the last month, may have helped slow down the growth rate, but by that time the kid was already huge, and it is unlikely the kid would loose weight, maybe gain a little slower, but mom will give everything for the kid(s) to keep gaining. 

I also wanted to ask if the vet came out with a ring type thing to hook over the kid to assist pulling the kid?  I can't remember the specific name. 

The uterus does feel small around the animal, The kids are positioned in Horns of the uterus, it isn't one big open space. Perhaps you new this, and I do beleive your idea of adding some lubrication fluid around the animal is a good point. Jsut wanted to make sure you were aware of that. 

Our rules are to not breed before 9 months of age and only if the animal has near 90-100lbs on them. We take them off of all high energy feed after breeding and feed only pasture or grass hay until 5 weeks before kidding then we only feed around 1 cup per doe to start with, slowly working our way up to 3 cups right before kidding.  Our exception would be if I have a thinner doe that needs to put weight on, I may breed her and then pull her out and feed her extra for a month or so, this wouldn't be my first timer, since I wouldn't breed them under weight. 

My disclaimer:  Things happen and you shouldn't beat yourself up about it, The biggest problem is this animal shouldn't have been bred so young.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 16, 2011)

We stopped w/ grain sometime in early august, I don't remember the exact date.   I have an appointment for her friend on Tuesday for an ultrasound and evaluation and is nearly completely off grain. I have her tied up while I feed everybody else and she gets about a 1/4 cup to keep her from totally freaking out about not being fed.  

I know about the uterine horns.  I'm pretty good on anatomy, I'm just not always good on the terminology. 


She has a loop thing with her but couldn't get it placed anywhere useful. We were able to hook the neck but his head was totally back and down and basically nose to belly button over his right shoulder.  We could get finger, etc around his neck but not get his head to flip.  We were down past the pelvic bones. I could feel the head on the outside at about the mid point of her belly on the lower side.  I was thinking after the fact that even though hands were lubed we didn't have lubrication at the point of "stuck".  We couldn't actually get to the head, just the neck, he was bent so far in half. 

 I know that there are a million, should have dones that probably should have been done. We should have had an ultrasound in June to find out exactly what she was carrying.  Next time we will.  From here on out ALL first time does will be scoped to find out just how many buns are in the oven.  If they have one, then they get hay, water and minerals until they kid.  

She was a chunky butt when we first got her in May because the previous owner gave them lots of grain so we really thought they'd be carrying multiples because of the thorough flushing.  

Good to know about the effect of grain on meat baby size.  I have dairy experience but these were our first meat goats.  We've butchered extra dairy kids before but have not specifically had a meet breed.   She was pulled off of grain around the beginning of August.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 16, 2011)

I hear what y'all are saying about large hands, but even the largest man's hands I've seen are smaller than a goat kid, unless it's a ND.  If it's an emergency I'd rather a large handed man go in and try to help than do nothing (if nobody else is there).


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 16, 2011)

And just my $.02, it's not practical to have to jump through hoops (ultrasounds and such) for kidding.  If I had a doe that had a single for more than 1 year in a row, I probably wouldn't keep her, especially if she's a meat goat!  Multiples are what I want, and I want animals that can kid on their own (or with minimal assistance).  If I had to spend money on ever goat to do an ultrasound or other stuff, I would lose so much money.  It's just not worth it for me.  I'd let a single from a first-timer slide, but if she kidded (or lambed, because I have sheep) a single more than once, she's gone.   I can't afford to keep animals who don't pay their own way.  And why breed in genetics that are not hardy?  Why keep breeding females that need so much assistance for kidding?  Not worth it to me.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 16, 2011)

We made a couple calls to other farms we know and found somebody that has an ultrasound and will take a looksee if I bring the doe there. So sonograms on future does won't cost more than a car trip.  I already have the vet appointment for next week so we are going to bring her in and have her evaluated to see if we should abort or let her go.  Decided to get things checked out before just Luting her.




And with only 7 animals I can't afford NOT to ultrasound if I'm in a situation like this again.  Not only am I out the emergency vet call, I am out the sale of both the animals. That's nearly $650.00 gone that could have been avoided with a $40 office visit.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 16, 2011)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> We made a couple calls to other farms we know and found somebody that has an ultrasound and will take a looksee if I bring the doe there. So sonograms on future does won't cost more than a car trip.  I already have the vet appointment for next week so we are going to bring her in and have her evaluated to see if we should abort or let her go.  Decided to get things checked out before just Luting her.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can understand you being concerned with this next doe, because you didn't have control of her breeding.  Plus, it's good that you know someone with an ultrasound, because you won't have to pay for it.   I just personally couldn't set up my breeding program knowing I'd have to get ultrasounds, know what I mean?  There's a difference if you suspect a problem with one doe, and definitely a difference to take a doe to get ultrasounded if you know someone with an ultrasound.  

But what will your vet be able to tell you at the consult? Are you going to have the ultrasound info on whether it's a single or multiples?  Because I'm pretty sure if I took my goat to the vet (or had him come) he wouldn't be able to tell me much other than, "Yep, she's bred."   It's not like they can palpate like with cattle, though it would be nice if they could!  We'd need someone with teeeeeeny arms.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 16, 2011)

My understanding was that with an ultrasound you can see the individual baby sacs and count. Not a preg tone which in my book is useless and I've heard 1/2 the time people hit the bladder instead of baby.  

With this doe I would like to know if she is carrying more than one. And based on the size of the baby determine if she was bred to the boer buck back in April or my buck in August when I had him back for a couple weeks.  If she is bred to my buck I will let it go as she's going to be about 14/15 months when she delivers.  If we can't determine based on ultrasound then we'll move on to xray.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 16, 2011)

I would think if your vet has the ultrasound wand that goes in rectally, there shouldn't be a problem seeing how many kids are in there. All my vets only have the wand that goes in rectally and it is amazing what can be seen with ultrasound.

I'm also guessing that you meant 14 to 15 weeks instead of months. Even alpacas only go 11-12 months pregnancy.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 16, 2011)

I agree about not worrying about it so much if she is going to be 15 months, we kid out at 13-15 months all the time.  Although we do make sure before we breed them that they are 90 plus lbs.  Not sure on what weight your does were when first bred.  

I have 7 february doelings right now, 4 of them we will be trying to breed beginning of October, the other 3 haven't made weight and we will holding them back until we breed next summer. We don't breed for summer kiddings, so if they aren't big enough to breed by October they are held over until next summer for a late fall or winter kidding.  


Good luck with your next doe.  didn't you get some new smaller breed goats? How are they doing? Don't over do it, take care of yourself.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 16, 2011)

I don't know what they weighed when they were bred. We think they were about 80/90lbs when we picked them up because we literally "picked" them up to get them in the transport cages.  That would have been at around 2 months along for Louise. 

Oh, I meant 14/15 months old for the mom, not a fetal age  L.   I think people would give up on goats if we had to wait that long for babies. 


 We did pick up the smaller goats. This week has not qualified as a "don't over do it" week. L.   4 of them are very sweet and are already making friends with me. One is rather wild and skittish and had a HUGE set of horns and will probably be goat stew.


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 16, 2011)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> My understanding was that with an ultrasound you can see the individual baby sacs and count. Not a preg tone which in my book is useless and I've heard 1/2 the time people hit the bladder instead of baby.


I have used the Pregtone quite a bit and like it, although it's pricey.  If you angle it correctly you're pretty guaranteed not to hit the bladder, plus most times you catch the ewes (we were using it on sheep) they pee anyways.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 16, 2011)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> One is rather wild and skittish and had a HUGE set of horns and will probably be goat stew.


Do the other members of your herd have horns? If so, try working with this skittish one. I have found that if you can get them to be food driven(in regards to coming to you), then you can get them on a stanchion with a nibble of food and slowly start getting them used to being handled. Once they know that you are not going to harm them and that you are their source of food, they become much friendlier... I'm not saying that this will happen within a week, but I know from experience with a couple of our does(and even one of our bucks), that this does work.

If you have a disbudded/poled herd, then obviously you can't keep the horns intact goat with them. It just doesn't work(unless you have horns intact bucks in one barn and disbudded/poled does in another).


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## BlackWatchLady (Sep 26, 2011)

I have only attended to one birthing, but, both of the babies had to be helped..... I am not sure how long she laboured, she was checked that night and was fine, when I came out to feed in the morning she had a foot and head clear, but thats where baby stuck. She wasn't down and pushing, and she was ready to eat. I left it for about 10 min, then I decided I needed to help. got a finger or two in and found he had a tucked back foot, and helped get it untucked. 
Second baby did the same deal, tucked back foot. I untucked itbefore his nose came out. I also lent her a hand by pulling the babies, with contractions of course, and pulling them down not just pulling.


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