# Would you buy these rabbits at this price??



## Tre3hugger

Hey guys, I have been researching rabbit breeders in my area and am about ready to make a deal with a small rabbit farm. West Meadow rabbitry, they breed "quality New Zealands for show and meat."  He is asking 100$ for two rabbits from his "best meat production line." If I get three the 2nd doe will be a bit younger not quite ready to breed, and it would be $125 for the unrelated trio. Do you think this is a good deal? Here is a picture of the 2 I am Thinking I def want to get, the buck and the doe. 






They seem alert and their housing seems clean/adequate. Does this seem reasonable to you guys? Would you choose these rabbits? I would really appreciate any advice you can give me. I am very close to pulling the trigger on this one. This is their website.








						Home - West Meadow Rabbits
					

We supply pedigree breeding stock, show stock, and sustainably raised rabbit meat and fur. We are a small family run rabbitry located in Haverhill




					www.westmeadowrabbits.com


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## Fishychix

Personally? No. I paid $80 for both of my American Blues, meat breed also, because I knew they are a threatened breed and also dress out nicer than NZ and have blue fur, which I like. But no, that sounds way too high to me.

Edited to add: when we had Rex, we paid $30(?) each and they were from show champs.


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## TaylorBug

It's honestly up to you. I would buy Dutch or a fancy breed at that much, but I bought all of my Cals from a neighbor for no more than $25/head. They do look like really nice animals. But don't base it on my opinion only


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## Tre3hugger

Thank you @Fishychix & @TaylorBug  for the quick responses. Good information.


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## promiseacres

What is your plan for them? For the NZ most breeders I know discourage breeding the different colors due to getting non showable colors.   For a show quality trio I think that's a fair price. We paid $50 for our NZ buck, from good show stock.


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## Beekissed

I guess it depends on what area prices are for you.  They seem pretty small for a meat rabbit, especially a NZ.  And that price?  A good meat rabbit goes for around $20 here and they taste the same as the rabbits that cost $50, I'm betting.   In my area those prices would be laughable but in your area they may be pretty standard....which is a shame.  

So, hard to give you advice without knowing the prevailing prices for NZ meat rabbits in your area....but coming from where I live there's no way I'd pay that much and for that small of rabbits.


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## promiseacres

Beekissed said:


> I guess it depends on what area prices are for you.  They seem pretty small for a meat rabbit, especially a NZ.  And that price?  A good meat rabbit goes for around $20 here and they taste the same as the rabbits that cost $50, I'm betting.   In my area those prices would be laughable but in your area they may be pretty standard....which is a shame.
> 
> So, hard to give you advice without knowing the prevailing prices for NZ meat rabbits in your area....but coming from where I live there's no way I'd pay that much and for that small of rabbits.


I was assuming they were young... but yes weights of them and their parents would be great, plus how much they weighed at 8 -10 weeks would be good.


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## Tre3hugger

promiseacres said:


> What is your plan for them? For the NZ most breeders I know discourage breeding the different colors due to getting non showable colors.   For a show quality trio I think that's a fair price. We paid $50 for our NZ buck, from good show stock.


They will be for meat first, selling extras second, and showing probably never. Good to know people have paid that much for a show quality buck though of this breed. Thanks!


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

If they are show quality, then that price might be warranted. Are they old enough to breed and are you getting their pedigrees? The guy I bought my Rex from started at $40 and price went up as they aged. You might want to bring a scale to check their weight, if the seller objects they might be hiding something.


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## Alasgun

It’s a matter of opinion, id love to find a show quality trio for $125. In my area a meat trio of Cali’s is $180. And the Champagne trio coming from Washington state in April will crowd $500 with the delivery.


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## Tre3hugger

Larsen Poultry Ranch said:


> If they are show quality, then that price might be warranted. Are they old enough to breed and are you getting their pedigrees? The guy I bought my Rex from started at $40 and price went up as they aged. You might want to bring a scale to check their weight, if the seller objects they might be hiding something.


The doe is ready to breed and the buck "not far behind." He said all his available rabbits are under 6 months old. I haven't requested a pedigree yet, but he has invited me to come check out the parent stock and his rabbitry whenever I want. He lives an hour and a half away though so not exactly a convenient trip unless I know I am going to get something.


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## Tre3hugger

I think I am going to email him and basically say "look I am very interested but between the pandemic and the distance I am not going to make the trip unless I know I want to buy. When you have the time please give me via email all information you could possibly think to include about these rabbits and preferably their parents. Weights, litter numbers etc. Any applicable pictures also." If he wants to take the time to do that he will very likely make a nice sale. If not I may get them anyway! Haha but at least this may be a nice way to get some answers and judge his commitment to transparency. Appreciate everyone's input!


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

Tre3hugger said:


> I think I am going to email him and basically say "look I am very interested but between the pandemic and the distance I am not going to make the trip unless I know I want to buy. When you have the time please give me via email all information you could possibly think to include about these rabbits and preferably their parents. Weights, litter numbers etc. Any applicable pictures also." If he wants to take the time to do that he will very likely make a nice sale. If not I may get them anyway! Haha but at least this may be a nice way to get some answers and judge his commitment to transparency. Appreciate everyone's input!


Be careful how you word it. You want to come off interested and wanting information, but not wasting his time being a tire kicker. If he's a good breeder with good records, he should have that info easily available.


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## Beekissed

If you are going to get them anyway, why request all that other information as a condition of the sale?  I'd ask if he has their records to go along with and any pertinent information regarding litter size and wts of the kits produced by their parents when you come to buy them.  If he says he doesn't keep such records but still charges those prices because they are of his "best" meat lines, I'd walk away from the sale.  A person needs to be able to prove the product is as advertised and records are the way to do it...sure, they can be faked, but a serious breeder usually keeps records.


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## rachels.haven

Those rabbits look kind of oddly shaped for NZ. Can he provide pedigree and registration?


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## Longhornbreeder101

Those rabbits dont really look like New Zealand rabbits these are photos of New Zealand rabbits not my photos but some photos of reference


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## Jesusfreak101

Personally I would not pay that. I do know Californian show quality top of the line around me goes for 50$ each. I tend to buy the ones the showers sell around me for lovely discount of 25$ a head and I seen them go for a low as 15$ a piece. Nd are the same price and recs go for 30. All meat breeds. I personally would not pay that much because of the risk of losing that rabbit at that cost to a predator, heat ect. We have had even our dog open rabbit cages and have had heat be the main cause even with fans and ice packs some years.


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## Tre3hugger

He says he has all pedigrees available. @Ffagirl22 @rachels.haven Do these really not look like NZs? The red one in the pic I posted seems like a littler version of the one you posted. Even has the white toe tips and eye rings. I am not disagreeing, just struggling to see the difference. Enlighten me?


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## Fishychix

The ones in your picture have a more compact body shape. Does he cross breed with rexes? I know a lot of people do.


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## Fishychix

Beekissed said:


> I guess it depends on what area prices are for you.  They seem pretty small for a meat rabbit, especially a NZ.  And that price?  A good meat rabbit goes for around $20 here and they taste the same as the rabbits that cost $50, I'm betting.   In my area those prices would be laughable but in your area they may be pretty standard....which is a shame.
> 
> So, hard to give you advice without knowing the prevailing prices for NZ meat rabbits in your area....but coming from where I live there's no way I'd pay that much and for that small of rabbits.


Being a wanna be serious breeder, could you give me an idea of what a record should look like? Right now I just have an index card and a spreadsheet that I dont really use because I dont know what, or how often, to record.


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## Longhornbreeder101

Tre3hugger said:


> He says he has all pedigrees available. @Ffagirl22 @rachels.haven Do these really not look like NZs? The red one in the pic I posted seems like a littler version of the one you posted. Even has the white toe tips and eye rings. I am not disagreeing, just struggling to see the difference. Enlighten me?


That red one does king of look like it but as @Fishychix says their more compacted


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## SA Farm

Around here the show quality NZs tend to have that short, blocky body in comparison to the ones bred strictly for meat. I’m assuming it’s just how they’re selected for the show ring.

Pedigrees can vary on info given, but should have at least farm name and contact info, name, gender, age, colour, and weight. Most will include breeding history and updated weights, when possible.


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## rachels.haven

My mother bred NZ as their core meat breed for years.  She last had at least two lines. One she bought from an amazing breeder in MI that had a closed rabbitry and had been breeding for 40 years and was even able to supply labs because of the consistency and disease free status of their stock. That line had incredibly heavy rabbits that were as solid as a brick and built in that shape too (that rabbitry did red, white, and unrecognized, blue Nz). The other lines they've had were even longer-longer faced, longer bodied, not rounded. The pictured rabbits do look like rexes or silver fox thrown in-maybe some Nz.


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## Bunnylady

Y'know, a number of years ago, an American Rabbit Breeders Association judge did an article in their magazine Domestic Rabbits in which he showed 3 pictures, and asked readers to place the rabbits in them in an imaginary show class. Then he explained that this was a sort of "trick question," because the three pictures were all of the same rabbit, it had just been posed slightly differently for each one. It was a clever demonstration of just how a rabbit is sitting can affect how it appears; you had to look closely to see that the apparent conformation faults in some pictures were actually caused by how the animal's feet were positioned. Careful, correct posing is essential to knowing the animal's true structure, as is getting your hands on it to feel what is going on under the fur. You really can't judge the conformation of a rabbit just by looking at it, especially if what you are looking at is a photograph of an animal that clearly hasn't been posed.

(Am I the only one who noticed that the pic of the Red one is clearly a baby picture? Compare it to the size of the rabbit in the cage next door!)

Most meat breeds are very similar in type (probably because many of the modern ones were created by selective crosses of some of the others). Even within the breed, animals bred for show may look rather different from those bred for meat production. Unfortunately, most of the traits that make animals good producers don't appear on the show table, so animals from show lines often don't produce well, and animals from meat production herds frequently do poorly on a show table.

Because of the many different genes involved in producing the colors of the two rabbits in the pictures you posted, the odds of getting a baby of a showable color from that cross is pretty slim. Reds especially really ought only to be bred to other Reds if you want good Red color on the babies. As far as I'm concerned, that pair need to be looked at strictly as meat producers, and whether they could produce enough to justify the price . . . . well, let's just say that if they don't turn out to be very fecund, that's mighty expensive meat.


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## Tre3hugger

I truly appreciate everybody chiming in. I decided to pass on these. No reason to drive super far and pay top dollar if they are questionable. Thanks again.


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## Tigger19687

I've learned a lot from this thread, thank you


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## Fishychix

I found a resource regarding record keeping. Here’s the link to their website: Rabbit records templates


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## Niele da Kine

That's a good link on record keeping, Fishychix.  How to keep records may be worthy of it's own thread?


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## Fishychix

Niele da Kine said:


> That's a good link on record keeping, Fishychix.  How to keep records may be worthy of it's own thread?


I would lve that 🤣. I just posted it here since @Tre3hugger is starting a business that they may find it helpful also.


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## Tre3hugger

Fishychix said:


> I would lve that 🤣. I just posted it here since @Tre3hugger is starting a business that they may find it helpful also.


Very helpful. Bookmarked the page. Thanks!


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## Hideaway Pines

I agree with the others, the price seems a bit high. But price can vary from state to state -supply and demand playing a key role. But I would keep looking myself, and pictures are never as good as in person evaluation of rabbits and their environment. Temperament is also something that I look for when purchasing a new rabbit - if they are not friendly it can be difficult to handle them. Get more info on the weight of their parents for sure, but then visit in person before committing to that price.


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## LilTxFarmer

Seems a lil high to me! Here where I live I bought a trio of California White's,  two doe's and a buck, 8 weeks old, for $51.00, ($17.00 each). I believe they're the best meat rabbits!


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## HornyToadAcres

Tre3hugger said:


> I truly appreciate everybody chiming in. I decided to pass on these. No reason to drive super far and pay top dollar if they are questionable. Thanks again.


Perspective! I would LOVE to drive 1.5 hours to get the TAMUKs I want. I drove 5 hours each to get a pair and then a trio. Interesting convo - price does depend heavily on location.


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## HornyToadAcres

I'm using a simple Excel spreadsheet called Rabbit Tracker. I didn't need pedigrees doing TAMUKS. And I have added tabs for expenses and receipts. Trying to find links but it won't be enough if you are doing pedigrees.
Oh - they have other forms on this page as well - I just needed the tracker then. 








						Printables
					

All printables created and designed by Gryph of Edelweiss Ranch & Rabbitry © 2014-2022 If you ever have questions about any of these forms or documents, please email us at ...



					www.edelweissranch.com


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## Stephine

HornyToadAcres said:


> I'm using a simple Excel spreadsheet called Rabbit Tracker. I didn't need pedigrees doing TAMUKS. And I have added tabs for expenses and receipts. Trying to find links but it won't be enough if you are doing pedigrees.
> Oh - they have other forms on this page as well - I just needed the tracker then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Printables
> 
> 
> All printables created and designed by Gryph of Edelweiss Ranch & Rabbitry © 2014-2022 If you ever have questions about any of these forms or documents, please email us at ...
> 
> 
> 
> www.edelweissranch.com


What’s a tamuk?


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## Bunnylady

Stephine said:


> What’s a tamuk?


*T*exas* A* &*M* *U*niversity - *K*ingsville. They have a rabbit breeding program there; one of the "breeds" that they produced, which_ they_ call the Composite (because it was developed from many different breeds) has the reputation for being quite heat tolerant, and comes in almost every color in the rabbit rainbow.


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## HornyToadAcres

Bunnylady said:


> *T*exas* A* &*M* *U*niversity - *K*ingsville. They have a rabbit breeding program there; one of the "breeds" that they produced, which_ they_ call the Composite (because it was developed from many different breeds) has the reputation for being quite heat tolerant, and comes in almost every color in the rabbit rainbow.


Yes. You can't show them because no ARBA (?) standards and there are no pedigrees. Only "Did you get them from the college directly?" or "Is it a line from ______ (fill in reputable TAMUK breeder)?"

I have been happy with my choice so far. Most have good dispositions, they grow fast, the fur is pretty but shorter and thinner and the ears are large and upright. 

My goal is to become one of the reputable breeders.


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## Tre3hugger

I found a pair of year old American Chinchilla for 50 bucks. They are pedigreed and the pictures are stunning. I am picking them up on friday!


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## Stephine

Bunnylady said:


> *T*exas* A* &*M* *U*niversity - *K*ingsville. They have a rabbit breeding program there; one of the "breeds" that they produced, which_ they_ call the Composite (because it was developed from many different breeds) has the reputation for being quite heat tolerant, and comes in almost every color in the rabbit rainbow.


Thanks!


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## Fishychix

Tre3hugger said:


> I found a pair of year old American Chinchilla for 50 bucks. They are pedigreed and the pictures are stunning. I am picking them up on friday!


Congrats! 🥳


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## Stephine

HornyToadAcres said:


> Yes. You can't show them because no ARBA (?) standards and there are no pedigrees. Only "Did you get them from the college directly?" or "Is it a line from ______ (fill in reputable TAMUK breeder)?"
> 
> I have been happy with my choice so far. Most have good dispositions, they grow fast, the fur is pretty but shorter and thinner and the ears are large and upright.
> 
> My goal is to become one of the reputable breeders.


Fantastic! 
They look adorable! How is their temperament? 
I have only had pet rabbits and I can no better imagine breeding rabbits for eating than I can doing that with dogs, but better heat tolerance is very useful for a pet rabbit as well...


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## Ridgetop

Ok.  Here is my info for what it is worth.

*Bunnylady is right*.  *Pix show nothing in structure.*  Meat rabbit structure IS THE SAME STRUCTURE YOU WANT IN A MEAT BREED SHOW RABBIT!  The reason I say that is that the Standard of Perfection for meat breeds is completely based on where the meat is on the skeleton.  It is imperative that you be able to feel the rabbit when choosing a good one.  It should carry meat from the shoulders back through the loin, which should be wide.  The hind quarters should be high and rounded, since they carry the most meat on a rabbit  You should not be able to feel boniness anywhere.  Excessive shortness in body will short you in loin meat capacity.  Excessive length will also be faulted since it will make a more cylindrical shape with less meat. 

Price is dictated by the area you live in, the number of rabbit breeders in your area, and the breeds that are available.  If you have trouble finding a breeder check with ARBA.

When it comes to colors in New Zealands, you do *not* breed the colors together.  Breeding a very good black or red NZ is more difficult since the gene pool is not as large.  If you are going to show, color depth and intensity must be taken into consideration.  The red and black NZs are sometimes a bit smaller or not of as good quality as the whites since the whites have been bred as the standard commercial meat breed for many more years.  

Again, as so many others have said, you need to know the age (in months) and weights on the rabbits you are buying.  Weights at the appropriate ages is extremely important for meat breeds.  If the rabbits are undersized do not buy.  Don't expect them to catch up or have a growth spurt,  Rabbits are a very short lived species and their growth is completely finished by 10-12 months old.  If you buy an undersized young rabbit thinking to give it extra groceries to grow it out, you will just have an undersized adult rabbit at maturity.   This is the same for bony youngsters.  Don't be fooled into thinking that they just need more feed to plump up.   At the right age and right weight, the meat they carry is the meat they will produce.  Remember you are not growing roasters so you don't have 6 months to grow meat on the carcass.  Meat rabbits should be 5 lbs. at 8 weeks old.  That is the age you will butcher a fryer.  Again this is a highly inheritable gene so make sure to get rabbits that grow well early.

Breeding age for meat rabbits start at 6 months.  When buying a Trio (2 does and a buck) does should be younger than the buck.  The age of a buck at breeding can be older but breeding age does who must wait for the buck to be old enough to breed them are at a disadvantage.  Does need to be bred around 6-8 months.  Any older and they often become difficult to breed.  Commercial breeders who want a doe who will be very productive, breed at 6 months.  A good choice in finding a Trio is to buy a bred doe, a younger doe, and a buck.  The bred doe will produce a litter and her better doe kits can be kept for future breeders with the buck you have purchased.  If she does not produce a litter, you have not lost anything since you can breed her to your buck.  Bred does often cost more.    

Now some info on pedigrees and records.  
Pedigrees and registration:
Rabbits - show rabbits -are a little different from other species that you will want to get registrations papers on. First, most breeders normally do not register rabbits until they have achieved the necessary 3 "legs" for their championship.  To register the rabbit you have to get the rabbit tattooed with an ARBA number by a Registrar, submit the 3 generation pedigree, and the Registrar will register the rabbit with ARBA.  Registrars usually only work at shows, otherwise you have to find one and drive to their house with your rabbits.  There is a registration fee.  If your rabbit has finished the requirements for its's championship, then you submit the 3 "legs" - (paperwork mailed to you by ARBA after the show results are all calculated) -  to ARBA and they will issue the championship certificate for the rabbit.  Most breeders only register their champions since it can run into $$$ to register all rabbits in their breeding program.  My DH had over 100 breeding rabbits in his barn when he was showing.  We registered the Champions which meant he had about 20 *registered* rabbits, the others were does put into breeding service before finishing their championships, youngsters just starting out, or bucks waiting to finish.  Does are harder to finish since the rabbit show season stops during hot summer weather and if your doe reaches 8 months with only 2 "legs, you go ahead and breed her before she gets that last leg.  If you wait until she is a year or older to breed, she often won't breed well.  After the have a litter, most does don't show well since they lose some coat.  Also breeders prefer to keep them breeding, particularly if they are good specimens since they will produce more showable rabbits.
So we have established that the paperwork you need to get from the breeder is a 3 generation pedigree.  Unless you buy a Champion the rabbits will probably not be registered yet.  When buying stock from an established breeder they will also be able to show you the parents, possibly the grandparents, siblings, etc. of the rabbits you are looking at.  

Records:
If you are planning a meat operation you will need records - NOT ON YOUR PURCHASED YOUNG TRIO - but on their parents and grandparents.  If the breeder is thorough and keeps good records they will be able to show you several generations and produce cage cards showing breeding history on does and bucks.  The doe's histories are the most important because they will show the number of successful breedings, litter size, survivability of the kits, and number weaned.  You need to *only *buy does from does that are successful breeders and mothers.   This is a highly inheritable trait.  Bucks are also important, but any buck that does not or cannot perform will be sold or eaten.  The does' histories will give you the information you need to choose good breeding prospects - both doe and buck choices for your Trio.  

Make sure to keep good records on your own breeding operation.   Records are imperative for a successful breeding plan.  Cage cards are the best since you can not things on them right at the cage and have any info right at your fingertips in your rabbitry.   Cage cards should contain the tattoo numbers of the rabbit, and birth date.  Mine also had the parents numbers on them.  The does' cards should also show dates bred, buck used, date kindled, number of kits born - both alive and dead, and often numbers weaned.  Buck cards can just carry their number, parents info, and their birth date.  

Hope this information will help you with finding good stock.


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## Longhornbreeder101

Pics  can we see


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## Tre3hugger

Doe





Buck


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## Tre3hugger

@BooksAndChooks @Larsen Poultry Ranch @TaylorBug Don't they look great! I feel like I am lucking out. In 24 hrs they should be mine!


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## Ridgetop

The doe looks nice but the buck is really short coupled.  Could be the way he is stacked.  What breed are these, how old and what do they weigh?


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## TaylorBug

Tre3hugger said:


> @BooksAndChooks @Larsen Poultry Ranch @TaylorBug Don't they look great! I feel like I am lucking out. In 24 hrs they should be mine!


That's exciting!! And (not to steal your thunder haha) but I found out that my senior mentor just bought out a neighbor's American Chins and he may have some for me to show in the fair this year!


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## Tre3hugger

TaylorBug said:


> That's exciting!! And (not to steal your thunder haha) but I found out that my senior mentor just bought out a neighbor's American Chins and he may have some for me to show in the fair this year!


That's awesome!


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## BooksAndChooks

Tre3hugger said:


> @BooksAndChooks @Larsen Poultry Ranch @TaylorBug Don't they look great! I feel like I am lucking out. In 24 hrs they should be mine!


Excited for more pics!


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## Hideaway Pines

Ridgetop said:


> Ok.  Here is my info for what it is worth.
> 
> *Bunnylady is right*.  *Pix show nothing in structure.*  Meat rabbit structure IS THE SAME STRUCTURE YOU WANT IN A MEAT BREED SHOW RABBIT!  The reason I say that is that the Standard of Perfection for meat breeds is completely based on where the meat is on the skeleton.  It is imperative that you be able to feel the rabbit when choosing a good one.  It should carry meat from the shoulders back through the loin, which should be wide.  The hind quarters should be high and rounded, since they carry the most meat on a rabbit  You should not be able to feel boniness anywhere.  Excessive shortness in body will short you in loin meat capacity.  Excessive length will also be faulted since it will make a more cylindrical shape with less meat.
> 
> Price is dictated by the area you live in, the number of rabbit breeders in your area, and the breeds that are available.  If you have trouble finding a breeder check with ARBA.
> 
> When it comes to colors in New Zealands, you do *not* breed the colors together.  Breeding a very good black or red NZ is more difficult since the gene pool is not as large.  If you are going to show, color depth and intensity must be taken into consideration.  The red and black NZs are sometimes a bit smaller or not of as good quality as the whites since the whites have been bred as the standard commercial meat breed for many more years.
> 
> Again, as so many others have said, you need to know the age (in months) and weights on the rabbits you are buying.  Weights at the appropriate ages is extremely important for meat breeds.  If the rabbits are undersized do not buy.  Don't expect them to catch up or have a growth spurt,  Rabbits are a very short lived species and their growth is completely finished by 10-12 months old.  If you buy an undersized young rabbit thinking to give it extra groceries to grow it out, you will just have an undersized adult rabbit at maturity.   This is the same for bony youngsters.  Don't be fooled into thinking that they just need more feed to plump up.   At the right age and right weight, the meat they carry is the meat they will produce.  Remember you are not growing roasters so you don't have 6 months to grow meat on the carcass.  Meat rabbits should be 5 lbs. at 8 weeks old.  That is the age you will butcher a fryer.  Again this is a highly inheritable gene so make sure to get rabbits that grow well early.
> 
> Breeding age for meat rabbits start at 6 months.  When buying a Trio (2 does and a buck) does should be younger than the buck.  The age of a buck at breeding can be older but breeding age does who must wait for the buck to be old enough to breed them are at a disadvantage.  Does need to be bred around 6-8 months.  Any older and they often become difficult to breed.  Commercial breeders who want a doe who will be very productive, breed at 6 months.  A good choice in finding a Trio is to buy a bred doe, a younger doe, and a buck.  The bred doe will produce a litter and her better doe kits can be kept for future breeders with the buck you have purchased.  If she does not produce a litter, you have not lost anything since you can breed her to your buck.  Bred does often cost more.
> 
> Now some info on pedigrees and records.
> Pedigrees and registration:
> Rabbits - show rabbits -are a little different from other species that you will want to get registrations papers on. First, most breeders normally do not register rabbits until they have achieved the necessary 3 "legs" for their championship.  To register the rabbit you have to get the rabbit tattooed with an ARBA number by a Registrar, submit the 3 generation pedigree, and the Registrar will register the rabbit with ARBA.  Registrars usually only work at shows, otherwise you have to find one and drive to their house with your rabbits.  There is a registration fee.  If your rabbit has finished the requirements for its's championship, then you submit the 3 "legs" - (paperwork mailed to you by ARBA after the show results are all calculated) -  to ARBA and they will issue the championship certificate for the rabbit.  Most breeders only register their champions since it can run into $$$ to register all rabbits in their breeding program.  My DH had over 100 breeding rabbits in his barn when he was showing.  We registered the Champions which meant he had about 20 *registered* rabbits, the others were does put into breeding service before finishing their championships, youngsters just starting out, or bucks waiting to finish.  Does are harder to finish since the rabbit show season stops during hot summer weather and if your doe reaches 8 months with only 2 "legs, you go ahead and breed her before she gets that last leg.  If you wait until she is a year or older to breed, she often won't breed well.  After the have a litter, most does don't show well since they lose some coat.  Also breeders prefer to keep them breeding, particularly if they are good specimens since they will produce more showable rabbits.
> So we have established that the paperwork you need to get from the breeder is a 3 generation pedigree.  Unless you buy a Champion the rabbits will probably not be registered yet.  When buying stock from an established breeder they will also be able to show you the parents, possibly the grandparents, siblings, etc. of the rabbits you are looking at.
> 
> Records:
> If you are planning a meat operation you will need records - NOT ON YOUR PURCHASED YOUNG TRIO - but on their parents and grandparents.  If the breeder is thorough and keeps good records they will be able to show you several generations and produce cage cards showing breeding history on does and bucks.  The doe's histories are the most important because they will show the number of successful breedings, litter size, survivability of the kits, and number weaned.  You need to *only *buy does from does that are successful breeders and mothers.   This is a highly inheritable trait.  Bucks are also important, but any buck that does not or cannot perform will be sold or eaten.  The does' histories will give you the information you need to choose good breeding prospects - both doe and buck choices for your Trio.
> 
> Make sure to keep good records on your own breeding operation.   Records are imperative for a successful breeding plan.  Cage cards are the best since you can not things on them right at the cage and have any info right at your fingertips in your rabbitry.   Cage cards should contain the tattoo numbers of the rabbit, and birth date.  Mine also had the parents numbers on them.  The does' cards should also show dates bred, buck used, date kindled, number of kits born - both alive and dead, and often numbers weaned.  Buck cards can just carry their number, parents info, and their birth date.
> 
> Hope this information will help you with finding good stock.


What a wealth of info you just gave. I have been breeding for a few years, but you put things in here I did not know. I appreciate you going to all this work to pass along your knowledge!


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## Ridgetop

Thank  you.  

Sometimes I am afraid I might sound like a know it all, but that is not my intention.  My intention is only to pass on what I have learned over the past 40 years.  Whoever reads it can take what they want from it and discard the rest.  I am still always learning from other people that post on here, and from other breeders that I talk to around the country and state.  You can't ever know too much about anything.  LOL

I had to study and learn a lot of info about rabbits when my husband started breeding and showing.  Then I had to learn a lot more about a lot of species during my 18 years as a 4-H leader.  I signed up for and took our children to every seminar available  There are lots of seminars put on by the different County Extension agencies on all species and on cropland and pasture as well.  If you sign up at your local County extension agency you will get notices sent on line about these seminars.  Most may not be of interest to everyone, but some may be of interest.    Since our 4 children did every 4-H project in the book, if there was no leader I got the job.  That meant I had to read up on everything before I could teach the project members.  I enjoyed learning everything I could and am happy to give what I learned to anyone who is interested.  With the Fair, I had to obtain a copy of the state rules each year since a lot of people did not know what the rules and it could cause problems.


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## Tre3hugger

Ridgetop said:


> Thank  you.
> 
> Sometimes I am afraid I might sound like a know it all, but that is not my intention.  My intention is only to pass on what I have learned over the past 40 years.  Whoever reads it can take what they want from it and discard the rest.  I am still always learning from other people that post on here, and from other breeders that I talk to around the country and state.  You can't ever know too much about anything.  LOL
> 
> I had to study and learn a lot of info about rabbits when my husband started breeding and showing.  Then I had to learn a lot more about a lot of species during my 18 years as a 4-H leader.  I signed up for and took our children to every seminar available  There are lots of seminars put on by the different County Extension agencies on all species and on cropland and pasture as well.  If you sign up at your local County extension agency you will get notices sent on line about these seminars.  Most may not be of interest to everyone, but some may be of interest.    Since our 4 children did every 4-H project in the book, if there was no leader I got the job.  That meant I had to read up on everything before I could teach the project members.  I enjoyed learning everything I could and am happy to give what I learned to anyone who is interested.  With the Fair, I had to obtain a copy of the state rules each year since a lot of people did not know what the rules and it could cause problems.


Truly an invaluable resource. Thank you!


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## Tre3hugger

These are American Chinchillas. The buck is 9 months and the doe 11 months. They seem to be settling in nicely except so far all breeding attempts have been rebuked by the doe. I am going to let them settle in a bit more before I try again. Also, got my hanging scale in the mail today. Going to get a weight tonight or tomorrow. Can I just put them in a five gallon bucket and hang that from the scale? This is the scale I got. https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/All-Things-Bunnies-50lb-Hanging-Scale-Tape-Measu-p/ws104.htm


Ridgetop said:


> The doe looks nice but the buck is really short coupled.  Could be the way he is stacked.  What breed are these, how old and what do they weigh?


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## Larsen Poultry Ranch

Tre3hugger said:


> These are American Chinchillas. The buck is 9 months and the doe 11 months. They seem to be settling in nicely except so far all breeding attempts have been rebuked by the doe. I am going to let them settle in a bit more before I try again. Also, got my hanging scale in the mail today. Going to get a weight tonight or tomorrow. Can I just put them in a five gallon bucket and hang that from the scale? This is the scale I got. https://www.allthingsbunnies.com/All-Things-Bunnies-50lb-Hanging-Scale-Tape-Measu-p/ws104.htm


Hopefully the scale has a 'tare' feature. You hang the scale with the bucket on it, and tare to reset the weight so it zeroes and doesn't weigh the bucket. Then the weight once you add the rabbit should just be the rabbit and not the bucket too. 

I use a hanging fish scale I got from Bass Pro, just add a shopping bag, tare, add rabbit and it locks the weight.


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## Ridgetop

If the scale doesn't have the "tare" weight feature, weigh the bucket then deduct that weight from the rabbit in the bucket weight.

The doe might be a bit unwilling because of her age.  Sometimes when they approach 1 year without having had a litter does can get unwilling to breed.   DH used to breed Champagne D'Argents which are notorious for does that don't want to breed.  He used to load them in the car and take them for a little drive around the neighborhood.  When he returned he immediately put her with the buck and usually she would lift and breed.  I have heard others say they have also used that trick on unwilling does as well.  Worth a shot.


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## Tre3hugger

Ridgetop said:


> If the scale doesn't have the "tare" weight feature, weigh the bucket then deduct that weight from the rabbit in the bucket weight.
> 
> The doe might be a bit unwilling because of her age.  Sometimes when they approach 1 year without having had a litter does can get unwilling to breed.   DH used to breed Champagne D'Argents which are notorious for does that don't want to breed.  He used to load them in the car and take them for a little drive around the neighborhood.  When he returned he immediately put her with the buck and usually she would lift and breed.  I have heard others say they have also used that trick on unwilling does as well.  Worth a shot.


The scale is analog so instead of a tare button, it has a little knob you can use to zero it out with the bucket hanging on. 

I think the car ride will be the next thing I try. I have looked at her vulva the last 2 days. Yesterday was somewhat pink. I put her in with the buck and neither showed much interest. This morning I was going to try again but I checked her vulva again first and this time it was quite small and whitish. So I just put her back in her cage. Next time her parts get a little color to them, I will take her for a ride and see what happens. Appreciate the input!


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## Tre3hugger

@Ridgetop what can you tell me about tortoise shell NZs? Is that a thing? Hard to find much on google. Seems like they are a color, but not a showable one? I am looking at a beautiful, HUGE 5 month old "NZ" but I have never heard of this color before so I am weary. Should be just as tasty as any other color right?


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## Tre3hugger

I am picking her up on Monday. 

Born 10/12/20 







Her mom has average litters of 10 and good mothering abilities. Both parent weights look good. Hopefully she will be the meat factoyt I am hoping for. Then there will be less pressure on my shy chinchilla doe, and when she is ready she can have a litter of mostly pedigreed pets.

SHE'S SO PRETTY!


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## Ridgetop

As far as I know there are only 3 recognized colors in New Zealands - white (which is the long established commercial standard,) red, and black.  You should never interbreed the colors because it causes fading which is a big markdown in the show standard.  The show standard on fur is based n commercial marketability.  Not a big concern anymore in our PETA never wear fur culture.   A tortoiseshell color is fawn or orange with black coloration overlaying the coat in patches.  

If some one is advertising a NZ as a tortoiseshell color, it is not pure NZ.  They either do not know what they are talking about or they are - gasp! - lying.  

This rabbit will not be a pure NZ nd for that reason you should not pay much.  Because it is not a pure NZ, it will have been interbred with something else.  You won't know what the breed was that was used to achieve this color pattern. It is probably a smaller breed because tortoiseshell is not a recognized color in the large 12 lb. meat breeds. Although you are right, it will taste the same as the standard NZs.  

If you want to play around with this rabbit in a breeding situation, that is fine, and you can have fun.  But you should know that probably it will reduce the size on your rabbits if you keep any breeding stock out of it.  This is mainly because most registerable tortoiseshell colors only occur in smaller breeds.  If you just breed terminal litters out of it you can have fun, however it may not throw this color and if it does, the color may wash out considerably. If you like the tortoiseshell color, I suggest you try to locate a breed that carries this color pattern naturally as part of the standard and then you can breed this color naturally.

Looking at this from the standpoint of a breeder with limited space and depending on your goals for your rabbitry, using this rabbit in your breeding program might be wasting cage space since you will not be keeping any replacement breeders from that rabbit.  

You don't say if it is a doe or buck.  If you want to play with this color, I would be more inclined to do it with a doe rather than a buck.  You should only keep the best bucks you can for breeding since they are half your herd.  You can't take a chance on them producing under sized fryers.  You don't want to breed all your does to a tortoiseshell buck then end up with small fryers in all the litters and with no possibility of keeping replacement breeders from any of those litters.  At least if you are playing with this color in one doe you are only breeding unusable breeding replacement kits in just one cage.  They will only be good for the  pot.    Yummy!  Always remember that even though rabbits are the smallest meat production unit their cages still take up space in the barn.  

I hope this helps with your decision.  If you are only breeding at this time for your family freezer, and if this rabbit is a doe. and if it is cheap, then go for it and have fun experimenting.


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## Ridgetop

Now that you posted the picture, that looks like a Cinnamon, not a tortoiseshell.  It this is a Cinnamon, they are good meat rabbits.  She is very nice looking.


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## Tre3hugger

@Ridgetop after looking at pics of cinnamons I think you nailed it. That makes me feel a little better. Seems this lady just doesn't really know what she has. Hopefully she is right about the age etc!


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## Ridgetop

She is very pretty.  If you can eventually get a buck and like the color you might enjoy breeding them more than NZs. Cinnamons are considered a gentle and tolerant breed, more like the Californians than the NZs which can be a bit flighty.   They should do just as well for you as New Zealands for meat, with the added gentler temperament.  Even though this lady does not know what breed her rabbits are, this seems to be a really nice one.  If she has an unrelated yung buck you might consider picking him up too.  If he is as nice as she is they would be a good breeding pair.


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## Tre3hugger

I plan on breeding her with my Chinchilla buck. I do have another cage empty though so maybe I will see what she has. She is asking $60 for her.

I am definitely not set on New Zealands. I just want a decent, consistently producing meat mom. The prettier, and calmer, the better.


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## Ridgetop

She is asking a lot considering she doesn't even know what breed she has!  Does she have a 3 generation pedigree?


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## Tre3hugger

No pedigree. Was digging a bit more and it seems tort NZ is a thing. Check out this thread.








						new zealand rabbit color question
					

im new to raising meat rabbits. i have a rew nz buck and doe and also have 2 nz red does. i crossed my white buck with the to reds and got what i think are chestnuts from one and chestnuts and i think blacks from the other one. im just learning genetics so i am trying to figure out what my white...




					www.backyardchickens.com
				



The NZ in the thread looks a lot like my perspective doe AND like cinnamons, but is apparently a NZ? The genetics stuff is way over my head.

ETA mainly the last 3 posts are of interest


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## Bunnylady

If you breed New Zealand Blacks and New Zealand Reds together, one of the colors that you could get (after a couple of generations) is Tortoiseshell. And incidentally, though there is a breed that is called Cinnamon, they are Tortoiseshell in color. (But if you want to get really confusing, some people call a Chocolate Agouti a Cinnamon!)

But yes, it is totally possible to have pedigreed NZ's that are Tortoiseshell in color.


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## Tre3hugger

Bunnylady said:


> If you breed New Zealand Blacks and New Zealand Reds together, one of the colors that you could get (after a couple of generations) is Tortoiseshell. And incidentally, though there is a breed that is called Cinnamon, they are Tortoiseshell in color. (But if you want to get really confusing, some people call a Chocolate Agouti a Cinnamon!)
> 
> But yes, it is totally possible to have pedigreed NZ's that are Tortoiseshell in color.


THANK YOU


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## Ridgetop

But is Tort a recognized color?  Are they able to be *registered?* or is it one of those *"new"* colors that are waiting for recognition by ARBA?

3 generation pedigrees are well and good showing that the rabbit has come from 3 known generations, but if the color is not acceptable to ARBA as a *recognizable color in the breed *color, they cannot be considered as being acceptable.  

Most species are registered right after birth and yo need registration papers that all the info on parentage to do he registration.  HOWEVER, ARBA operated differently.  IN order to be registered, the rabbit has to be presented to an ARBA Registrar who will check the rabbit against the breed Standard of Perfection.  If the rabbit does not fit the Standard, it cannot be registered no matter how many generation of pedigreed are produced.


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## Bunnylady

Registration is usually reserved for the creme-de-la-creme show animals, simply because it's an added expense that a meat breeder just doesn't need. Most show breeders only bother with registering a rabbit after it has won a class or two, because they don't need the expense, either (plus, a rabbit has to be at least 6 months old to be registered, and most start their show careers well before that). Even people who show will often have animals that are unshowable among their breeders, because they feel those animals have something positive to contribute to the gene pool. This is especially true in the marked breeds, and "rare" colors like BEW and Chocolate. Shoot, if Harlequin breeders had to be able to register an animal to breed it, the breed would have died out decades ago (take it from someone who has bred and shown them!)!   Breeds like the English Spot, Rhinelander and Checkered Giant are guaranteed to produce at least a few solid-colored babies (which are definitely not showable), and while most of those will be culled, some become valued breeders because they will never produce Charlies (this is especially true in some parts of Europe, where knowingly producing animals with life-threatening genetic defects is a crime).

Unless the rules have changed since the last time I read them, the only animal that needs to be a showable color is the one actually standing on the judge's table. As long as all of the other animals on the pedigree are the same breed, and their weights, colors, and ear numbers are accurately recorded, nobody really cares what color they happen to be (as far as showing or registration is concerned*). Especially in the "pet" breeds, a lot of breeders love to see different colors in a litter, and such indiscriminate crossing often produces colors that I call "whoopses" - pretty, but not showable, and not always easy to figure out. There are some colors (like Red!) that really ought to be kept to themselves if you want to produce good ones, but not everyone does it. Some people enjoy the range of colors that result, some don't. 

*Edited to add - The ARBA does have a feature of their registration system, in which the number of generations of registered rabbits on a pedigree determines what color the seal on the registration certificate is. If I remember correctly, if all animals on the registration form are registered, the seal is red, white and blue. I'd be willing to bet that no Harlequin has _ever_ had a registration like that!


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## TaylorBug

Ridgetop said:


> If the scale doesn't have the "tare" weight feature, weigh the bucket then deduct that weight from the rabbit in the bucket weight.
> 
> The doe might be a bit unwilling because of her age.  Sometimes when they approach 1 year without having had a litter does can get unwilling to breed.   DH used to breed Champagne D'Argents which are notorious for does that don't want to breed.  He used to load them in the car and take them for a little drive around the neighborhood.  When he returned he immediately put her with the buck and usually she would lift and breed.  I have heard others say they have also used that trick on unwilling does as well.  Worth a shot.


I know a guy who drives rabbits half a hour to the riverbank and breeds them in the back of his truck if he has a pair that absolutely will not breed. So I guess it works 🤣


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## Kusanar

TaylorBug said:


> I know a guy who drives rabbits half a hour to the riverbank and breeds them in the back of his truck if he has a pair that absolutely will not breed. So I guess it works 🤣


I guess they like a little ambiance..


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