# buck that doesn't know what his 'job' is?



## Pamela (Aug 17, 2015)

I have a pure bred, not papered, boar buck.  We were so excited to have him breed our nubian girls, but, he doesn't seem to know what his business is!  He spent 8 weeks with our girls, mid winter, early spring, and no kids!  He spent some time at different farms in our area, where he didn't really do his job either. Out of 34 does, he serviced 5 of them.  He is about a year and a half old, and was quite young when he went to his first studding out job.  He came back very sick, (we learned our lesson, he won't be going back there) and took awhile to regain his health.  Since then, he has been apparently healthy, but his drive has disappeared entirely.  Can a buck get sick enough to kill his sex drive and sperm count?  Do I need to be patient and let him be around my girls a bit longer?  He has been in with them for about a month, I haven't witnessed any action at all.  This is so frustrating.  In the past, we have borrowed a buck, who has promptly done his job, and 5 months later, beautiful kids arrive with no complications.  This reluctant buck is perplexing to me.  Help!?


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## babsbag (Aug 17, 2015)

Yes, bucks can get sick and no longer get the girls bred but most of the time they are still interested in trying, just not fertile. 

But I bet he was too young the first time, Boers can take FOREVER to figure it all out. And also, your Nubians are very likely seasonal breeders, they will only be bred from late summer or early fall until about Feb. and that is late. Jan. would be a better guess. So mid winter, early spring is not the time your girls are ready to breed. There are some that breed year round but it is not common and their heats may not be a strong in the "off" season and with a new buck he may just not "get it".  Right now is really the beginning of breeding season for most of us. I don't know where you live but hot summers can make even non-seasonal breeders unwilling to breed. Hang in there. 

Have you seen your does in heat? Also, I NEVER saw my Boers breed any of my does when they were roommates. They are much shyer than my Alpines and must have done it at night or when I wasn't looking. My Alpine has no shame.


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## Pamela (Aug 17, 2015)

I have not noticed a heat cycle in my nubians.  I have read and read on the subject, but until it smacks me in the face, I don't feel like I know what I am looking for. Maybe they are just on the shy side.  The buck we used last year had no shame and was quite scandalous to have around.  My poor kids sure got an education!  I will wait through this breeding season and see if our guy gets his act together. Thanks!


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## babsbag (Aug 18, 2015)

Does that are housed with bucks can be really sneaky; it is really easier if there is a fence line separating them and then the does will stand at the fence and fawn over the buck and vice versa.  Some does are very quiet, others are not. I have a lot of goats and it is still hard for me to see a doe in heat if they are living with the buck. I would bet that by the end of Nov. you have some bred does.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 18, 2015)

Babsbag is correct about breeding times.  Turning your buck in with does during spring and summer will do nothing.  Breeding seasons for dairy goats are from August (earliest) to February (latest) depending on the breed of goat (Nubians have the longest breeding season), the temperatures in your area, and even the direction your pasture faces. 
You don't have to catch your does in season, although if they are penned next to the buck they will rub on the fence, call to him, push their butts up to the fence and in general act in a very coquettish manner.  He will call to them, rub on the fence, hang out his tongue, pee on himself (buck aftershave lol) and in general moon around after the does.  It is not hard to miss.  If he is not acting this way at least part of the time between August and February, then there is something wrong with either him or the does.    

The easiest thing to do is go on line and order a ram breeding harness and marking crayons from Jeffers.  Get at least 3 different colors of crayons, 2 of each.  Put the harness on your buck while he is in with the does.  Put him in with the does between August and February.  If he breeds the doe the crayon will rub off on her butt.  Mark it on your calendar and 5 months and 5 days later you will have kids.  Change the color of the crayon every week.  That way, if the doe gets rebred in a few weeks it will be a different color and easy to tell.  If the buck doesn't mark any of the does, then he isn't breeding them.  If he is marking them the first time, but they are remarking every 3 weeks, then he is sterile and you need to replace him. 

With only 5 bred does out of 34, I need to ask:  How old was he when he was first used?  How old were the does he was bred to?  What were the times of the year he was exposed to the does?  How many does was he asked to cover during what time period?  What was he fed?  (Breeding bucks need a very high protein and vitamin count to maintain their reproductive vigor during the breeding season.)  I am interested in the time period when the kids he sired were born.  Were they all spring kids?  Were they all born within a few months of each other? 

I really don't like the idea of the buck traveling to so many different farms.  Bucks can pick up diseases and bring them back to you.  We loaned a buck to some people once and he came back with abcesses.  They assured us that they were not a problem because "all their goats got them"!  If we had known that, we would have been the better for that good buck instead of sending him to the auction with CL.  These people also had a goat they kept in spite of the fact that she had CAE!  Another little tidbit they forgot to mention when begging for the use of our buckling. 

Goats can also get venereal diseases.  If he developed one of these it may have left him sterile.  The fact that out of 34 does you only got 5 kiddings makes me think that either he has a very limited sperm count, or developed a disease that ended up leaving him sterile.  Goats can actually breed at 5 months of age but between the does being exposed at the wrong time of year, his illness, and traveling to different places where you don't know how he was housed or fed, I think I would consider a complete vet check up before breeding him this year.  Then use the harness and crayons to see if he covers the does and if they settle or recycle.  Good luck!


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## Pamela (Aug 19, 2015)

He spent last September thru December on the first place he went.  I had reservations about him going there, but we kind of 'fell into' the opportunity to get him and weren't ready for him to be with our does.  He was 5 or 6 months old at the time.  I feel like it was a big mistake to send him there.  Anyways, when he came back to us, he was underweight, had diarrhea, and just looked terrible in general.  He was in with older does, I think around 25 of them, but never could get a straight answer from my friend about the count.  The does were very dominant and I think he got bullied quite a bit.  He did sire 4 does out of that herd.  Babies were born end of March, first part of April.  All 4 does kidded within about a week or two of each other.  When we got him back, he went to my daughter's farm, she has 2 does out of the same batch that ours are. These does were all born on our place and seem to be in excellent health.  They nursed him back to health, and he has done quite well as far as overall health goes. His eyelid color is good, he has good flesh, is in good spirits.  He spent all of January and February with my daughter's does, then a couple of weeks with ours. He did go to some other places,( I know, I know).  We have shared bucks before with both places with no apparent ill affects.  He has been back home since June.  I am going to invest in a marking harness, because I am done with the guess work.  I think we will give him this breeding season and if we don't get anywhere, he will have to go.  Thanks for all your advice, I appreciate every word.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 19, 2015)

Pamela:  OK!  Good to know that he sired kids during those months since those are the months of goat breeding season.  It sounds like he did sire some kids at that place.  It was not your fault but he was much too young to have been in with that many older does and those people should have been more careful.  When starting a young breeding buckling, it is better to either hand breed him (with them both on a lead line so the doe can't be mean if she is not quite receptive) or put him in with just a couple does about his age.  If the older does bullied him it could put him off being a dominant breeder. It sounds like they did not let him get enough to eat either which older dominant herd queens are quite apt to do to younger members.   BUT, bucks being bucks, now that he is healthy, and the normal goat breeding season is approaching you can make him happy about being in rut and as long as he is healthy and fertile he will be fine. 

I am glad you are going to get a breeding harness, it will make life much easier for you in being able to check on his activity.  You can get one and the crayons at any livestock supplier in the sheep section.  Get at least 4 colors of crayons that will show up on your does.  If they are red use blue, and green, and yellow - if they are Boers any color will show on the white.  You will want to switch the colors out each week or two so you can see if he is rebreeding any does that you thought were already marked.  Don't forget to write down which ones were marked each morning.  Bucks like to breed in the evening and early am when it is cool.  I would pen him next to the does until September and watch for flirtatious behavior on their parts - rubbing the fence, calling to him, etc.  He will respond by peeing on himself and rubbing his face in it.  (Our family calls it putting on his aftershave LOL!)  Put him with about 5 or 6 does first to see how he does.  

Here are pictures of my young Dorset ram wearing his tupping harness.  In case you miss the blue marks on the ewes, the crayon he is currently wearing is blue. lol  He was separated from them for about a week and I wanted to know exactly when the ewes are bred since California is expecting the Godzilla of El Ninos this year per the weather gurus.  I want to make sure to keep the ewes in on their due dates since they like to lamb in the bottom of the steep gully.  I don't want to struggle up or down the muddy slopes or have the lambs washed away.

Ok, so the straps go around the belly and across the back with the crayon holder under his chest between his forelegs.  When he mounts the ewe (in your case doe) the crayon rubs the color onto her butt.  If you mark the date and name of the doe on your calendar you can determine when she will be due.  You need to change the crayon color in the harness every week so you can tell if he rebreeds the doe.  Some bucks will breed the same doe several times.  I use 4 colors interchangeably because if the ewe or doe recycles she will do it in about 3 weeks.  If I were only using 3 colors the third week would end up being the same color as the first week and the doe could recycle and be rebred without me noticing the color change.  This is a great help for those of us who turn our bucks and rams in with the ewes and need to know when to expect the baby.  Could be because of weather issues like me, or for some people lambing or kidding problems with a particular animal.  This is especially good for you Pamela since you will be able to see if your buck keeps rebreeding the does. 

Since you are worried about his fertility be especially watchful to see if any does that he marks rebreed.  If one or two miss it could be the doe, weather, or breeding too many in one day. If most of them recycle, it is probably him.  Since he produced kids during the normal breeding season even in poor circumstances, and did not produce kids when with your and your daughter's herd during out of season months, I think you unfortunately let the other family use him during the time he was fertile.  Bucks and rams often become infertile during the hot months, so let's hope that all goes well this season and you get some kids.


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## Pamela (Sep 26, 2015)

Well, I took my buck away from the does for most of August, and reintroduced him back into the herd, with a breeding harness on Sept 4.  He hasn't marked anyone.  UGH.  He did run with the girls on and off from June 20-Aug 4 without a marking harness.  So, I guess they could be bred, but who knows?  At this point, we are just waiting it out.  If we have babies, great, if not we will be selling this buck and getting a new one.  This whole process is driving me crazy.  On a happier note, we should be having piglets in about 3 weeks. (our boar is not shy or dysfunctional)


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## babsbag (Sep 27, 2015)

Does he smell? Were the girls ever standing at the fence looking his direction and screaming when they were separated?  My does are just starting to come into season and they seem to do it in groups. I will have a bunch standing at the fence one day and none the next. Even if he isn't breeding them they should be showing signs of being in heat. It IS possible that he bred them in Aug. but that is really early in the season.  You could draw blood and send it to Bio-tracking for a pregnancy test.

Where do you live?  Breeding season is all daylight length related.

Hope you get lots of healthy piggies.


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## Pamela (Sep 27, 2015)

we are in Idaho. He is smelly, but they have not acted interested at all.


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## Pamela (Sep 30, 2015)

Finally a sign of breeding!  I went out today and our grammy goat (we picked her up at the livestock sale in June and she seems kind of older)  had been marked! And boy does our buck STINK!  I am much encouraged and hope that this will all be wildly successful.  Now to see if our nubian girlies come into heat.


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## babsbag (Sep 30, 2015)

Glad he is being a normal buck.   Well the others could be bred and Nubians are sometimes known to be non-seasonal breeders, or at least a little outside of the norm. I would seriously get a blood test done if they aren't marked in the next month.


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## Pamela (Oct 16, 2015)

All three of my girlies are marked!  Woot! Woot!  Went out yesterday and Oreo had been marked, then today, Baby.  I am so excited! Looks like end of February to the middle of March we should be seeing kids!


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## babsbag (Oct 17, 2015)

Glad he figured it out.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 17, 2015)

That's great to hear!


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