# Buck is Hunched w/ Stiff Legs



## mikayladawn (Feb 15, 2013)

One of our bucks has stiff back legs and is slightly hunch backed...? He is perfectly healthy otherwise. He has been tested for CAE and he eats normally. In his area he doesn't have much foraging, but he gets plenty of hay. He gets free choice Manna Pro goat mineral, and he has been dewormed one a month (or as needed). What is wrong? Oh, and he is up to date with CD-T.


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 15, 2013)

Is he peeing normally?  When is the last time you had a fecal test done?  (P.S. You should really rethink your worming practice---worming monthly or on any kind of schedule is an outdated practice that has led to resistant parasites).


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## mikayladawn (Feb 15, 2013)

Sorry, I wasn't very clear Our goats typically start to get paler gums in about a month and that is when we do it. Sometime we do before, sometimes a little after depending on the goat.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Feb 15, 2013)

*I too was going to ask if you had recently seen him pee.




I too also don't deworm without doing a fecal first. That way I know which worms it is and which de-wormer to use! *


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 15, 2013)

I get what you are saying, but again, that frequently and without testing has led to parasite resistance for all of us.  It sounds like you may have resistant parasites that you are battling actually seeing as your goats are getting pale in the gums.   There are only a handful of dewormers on the market and the problem is that a lot of folks have given them on a rotation or because their animal's eyelids or gums look pale.  They sometimes are not even using the correct dewormer for the parasite that causes pale gums/lids.

Without testing, it is not possible to know 1) if a goat is carrying parasites, 2) in what quantity, or 3) what kind so the correct medication can be given---like you can't treat barbepole with Safeguard for example.  It not only wastes money (a lot of goats rarely need to be treated), but giving dewormers that are not needed has created parasites that do not respond to those medications when they are needed.

Just something to think about.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 15, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> I get what you are saying, but again, that frequently and without testing has led to parasite resistance for all of us.  It sounds like you may have resistant parasites that you are battling actually seeing as your goats are getting pale in the gums.   There are only a handful of dewormers on the market and the problem is that a lot of folks have given them on a rotation or because their animal's eyelids or gums look pale.  They sometimes are not even using the correct dewormer for the parasite that causes pale gums/lids.
> 
> Without testing, it is not possible to know 1) if a goat is carrying parasites, 2) in what quantity, or 3) what kind so the correct medication can be given---like you can't treat barbepole with Safeguard for example.  It not only wastes money (a lot of goats rarely need to be treated), but giving dewormers that are not needed has created parasites that do not respond to those medications when they are needed.
> 
> Just something to think about.


Yep. Well said and 100% right.

Also don't go by gums, go by eye lids. Gum don't really work well for that kind of thing.


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## mikayladawn (Feb 16, 2013)

Oh my gosh I keep typing the wrong thing  sorry guys. Ok. So, I do check eyelids (not gums, what was I thinking? Do people even check the gums? Should I be?) The resistance thing makes sense, so I googled it. I found fiasco farms, that shows how to do your own fecal testing. It seemed the best route in the long run cost-wise. How do you all do yours?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 16, 2013)

You would need a microscope, slides, slide covers, fecal solution ( My simple recipe is under supplies and equipment) strainer 2 small cups and a good book showing you pictures of the eggs. Parasitology books can be very pricey. You want actual pictures and not drawings.

We do our own fecals here. It is worth the cost of the supplies.  I will say that there is a bit more to just looking at a slide though. Just because you see eggs on the slide DOESN'T mean you worm. A simple fecal test shows you what kind of parasites you have, it does not tell you the load. For accurate load level you would need to do the McMasters Method- of *E*ggs *P*er *G*ram count.
However, using a simple fecal test will still tell you  a lot and with experience you will learn when to worm and when not to.

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/parasit06/website/mcmaster.htm

http://www.salecreekvet.com/724987.html

It is best if you have someone local to help teach you what to look for.


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## mikayladawn (Feb 16, 2013)

Ok. Thanks, I will definitely look into that. I just found something. Could it be White Muscle Disease? Does anyone have any experience with this? Can it occur in adult goats?


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 16, 2013)

It isn't likely White Muscle Disease.   Does he have access to loose minerals---EDITED because you say he does in the first post so no on the WMD.

   Here is the run down I would go through, in order:
1) Does he have a high parasite load determined by a fecal test (cost about $15 from a vet)
2) Is he peeing normally (suspect a urinary blockage or infection)
3) Does he have normal poop
4) Does he have a fever
5) Is he eating normally (YES)
6) Is he grinding his teeth


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## Southern by choice (Feb 16, 2013)

Well, from what it looks like it can. This is caused apparently by Selenium deficiency.

Many people will ask the vet (it is by prescription) for Bose. Or vet can give an injection. More and more vets are not keen on doing this unless the animal is in a dangerous condition. As there are reactions and overdose issues.

Although you may be giving minerals, which is good, only about  30% is utilized.  Kelp is organic...plant based, and so *80-90% *gets utilized.

Try this..stop with worming til you get a fecal.
My VEt (sheep/goat vet) doesn't like doing selenium injections etc..she recommends this recipe to build up the body when there is evidence of deficiency...because often times its more than just selenium.

*Cook up some oatmeal  (use the one serving amount)
once cooked let it cool a little bit
Add 1 tsp of Molasses
Add  1/2 Tablespoon of kelp
Stir together thoroughly
Give a nice ball size in am save the rest for pm
Do this everyday til you see improvement*

This takes a few minutes to make up.

From there you can add the kelp straight in with the minerals  fed "loose"

Kelp is $$$$ and you do not need a big bag... so look in the "horse" section...there is a small  1/2 gallon size bucket but it is heavy...so it is a 5 lb bucket - that will last your forever!

We use "Source" it has a seahorse on the front of it.   It cost us $28 but will last forever.  If this is deficiency you will see improvement in a short period of time.

We are not in a Selenium deficient are yet our water is very high in iron which binds the Selenium/copper. So we have started using this. It is safe and healthy.  When you add it to your free-choice minerals you only add a little bit.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 16, 2013)

how long has he been acting like this?


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## mikayladawn (Feb 16, 2013)

1) Does he have a high parasite load determined by a fecal test (cost about $15 from a vet)
I suppose I can get one done, but his eyelids (not gums  ) are very pink, so I'm pretty sure he isn't wormy.

2) Is he peeing normally (suspect a urinary blockage or infection)
I'm pretty sure he is, I will pay a little more attention to that.

3) Does he have normal poop
Yes

4) Does he have a fever
I will check when I get home.

5) Is he eating normally
yes

6) Is he grinding his teeth
I'm not sure of this either although I'm pretty sure he isn't. Would it be obvious? How do you know if he is grinding his teeth or if he is just digesting?

I will look for the kelp at... southernstates?


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 16, 2013)

mikayladawn said:
			
		

> 1) Does he have a high parasite load determined by a fecal test (cost about $15 from a vet)
> I suppose I can get one done, but his eyelids (not gums  ) are very pink, so I'm pretty sure he isn't wormy.
> 
> _Only one worm (Barberpole) has been noted for causing pale lids.  There are a plethora of other parasites that you should be testing for via a fecal (coccidia, tapeworm, roundworm, hookworm, whipworm....)_
> ...


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 16, 2013)

> I suppose I can get one done, but his eyelids (not gums  ) are very pink, so I'm pretty sure he isn't wormy.


The FAMACHA method (using eyelids to determine parasites) tells ONLY the Barberpole worm load. If they are very pink then more than likely he doesn't have a high BP load but he could have a high load of the many many other worms out there. Again, that tells you only one kind of worm so do the fecal.

Also the kelp can be found at most SS, yes.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 17, 2013)

Menengial worms causes problems with the back legs first and works its way forward. But not sure if you would be seeing stiffness compared to weakness in the back legs.  It progresses failry slowly.


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## mikayladawn (Feb 17, 2013)

It has come on pretty slowly. I'll look into that. Thank you!


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