# Looking at cows to buy - newbies



## BeanJeepin (Apr 20, 2012)

We've wanted for quite some time a family dairy cow.  Recently we've begun to get serious about this purchase and are looking at two cows that have come available.

The first one is local.  Pics https://plus.google.com/photos/1142...96143054811016/albums/5733282703342014913here.  We went and met her.  She's unknown age (between 15-20 months) and from a local dairy farm (husband of the family used to work there) and came home as a pet.  They don't really have a place to keep her, so want to sell.  She was... frisky.  Came when called, stood and ate out of hands, but when my husband got in to look her over she was interested in head butting him - sort of hard and often.  Neither of us felt comfortable really having our hands all over her.  We're told mostly jersey/some holstein mix.  Not bred.  I couldn't get a good look at her udder.  Noticed her hooves looked sort of long and her nose had copious snot running out - but I really don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for (I've heard well attached and formed udder, but have no idea what that really means).  

The other one we're driving a few hours (7, roundtrip actually) to meet this weekend.  She was bottle raised from 6 weeks on as a family pet, follows them around, walks on lead well - so they say.  Biggest issue is we have yet to see a full body picture of her and I am hesitant to make the trip without at least one.  She's 15/16 months old (Christmas day '10) and not yet bred.  They're finding they don't have as much time as they thought for her due to family obligations.

Anyone have a link to questions I should be asking, things I need pictures of, things I should be looking for specifically?  I'm not real comfortable with the first cow's demeanor.  We have 4 boys (human) and the oldest is 8.5 - not something I want a "frisky" thousand pound animal around.  I know any animal that large can cause a lot of damage, calm all the time or not, but I'd like to reduce the risk.  Ready to hear your thoughts.  (We've had dairy goats for 2 years now, as "practice".  We're not new to the milking thing, nor the animal keeping thing.)

Jean

(3 LaMancha does, 2 kids (one buck, one doe), 9 chickens of assorted types, 1 dog, 4 human children and a husband.  Coming soon - ducks, geese and a cow, oh, and bees.)
"Do you live on a FARM?  Nah, that's just our backyard."


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## BeanJeepin (Apr 20, 2012)

shoot, don't think that work link worked.

https://plus.google.com/photos/114220096143054811016/albums/5733282703342014913


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## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

Right click on the photo and choose "copy image url"


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## redtailgal (Apr 20, 2012)

Is this the right link?

https://plus.google.com/photos/114220096143054811016/albums/5733282703342014913


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## BeanJeepin (Apr 20, 2012)

that's the one.


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## mangus580 (Apr 20, 2012)




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## redtailgal (Apr 20, 2012)

I would pass on the cow that was pushy.  If she is that way on her home turf, it will get worse when she is stressed with a new place.  Also, she had some pretty serious conformation problems.  Normally, on a family cow, conformation is not a huge concern, but her legs are horrible. Esp the front legs, the bow in too much at the knee and her feet point outwards.  This could cause some major problems and heartache later.

To be blunt, I wouldnt take a cow with that conformation AND a bad attitude, if someone gave her to me.  She's definately not a good cow for a beginner or a seasoned cattleman.  

You'll want to look for a cow that is calm, one that will not kick out or act aggressively when you touch her udder.  Nervousness and sidestepping is OK, IF she is not used to having her udder handled.  Let her see your kids, and let her see them being kids, but respectful kids.

You'll want decent legs on her.  Straight, not knock kneed or bowed out and set under the cow....not at a strong angle.  If the hooves look bad, dont buy her.

Eyes should be clear and bright. Ears should be up and attentive to her surroundings.  Nose should be moist and without drainage (some times a cow will drip a clear "water" from there nose occasionally, this is not an issue)

Hair should be clean (healthy cattle keep themselves relatively clean), and somewhat shiny, depending on the color.

Ask for a shot record, health record or something on her.

If ever you have a doubt, come and ask here, we have lots of opinions!


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## BeanJeepin (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank you so much for the well thought out reply.  I really appreciate the patience and willingness to educate!  

I don't know much about what a cow "should" look like but I had serious reservations about the one photographed - especially the legs.  Thank you for confirming that.  And yes, I wouldn't have been comfortable trying to touch her udder in her own pasture, so that gave us pause as well.  In fact I chose to not even get in with her after seeing her with my husband in there.  

The one we're meeting Sunday we've only seen a head shot of, something that makes me nervous as well (especially since we've asked for pictures) but just from her description it's worth a look.  We're not taking a trailer with us to meet her so we won't make any snap decisions.

Jean


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## redtailgal (Apr 20, 2012)

I just noticed that her tail was docked and wanted to comment.

Please, everyone understand that I am stating my opinion, not passing judgement on anyone else's practices or beliefs, and I am in no way wanting this to be a debate.

I dont like to see dairy cattle with their tails docked.  It's often done to prevent annoyance, such a getting slapped in the face with a poopy tail.  Cows will do this, and many will do it INTENTIONALLY.  And it is annoying to say the least.

However, they use their tails to combat bugs.  I see dairy cattle around here, tail-less and COVERED in biting flies.  I've helped treat sick cattle that had open wounds from these flies that they were not able to swish off because their tail had been docked.

If you end up purchasing a cow that has been docked, please be kind enough to help her combat those flies in the summer by using some sort of fly repellent.

oh and by the way, when I used to milk, and had one of those lovely cows that loved to slap my face with a wet slimy poo covered tail, I would take a piece of baling twine and loosely tie her tail to her leg.  After a couple weeks of not being able to swat me, they all learned to quit trying.

Thats my way.  Others may feel differently, but the way I see it, if two people agree on everything, then one of them is not necessary!


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## BeanJeepin (Apr 20, 2012)

This cow was born on a dairy farm.  We asked about the docked tail, they said it was done as a matter of course there.  I mentioned after we'd met her the number of flies on her and asked my husband if that was normal.  Ha, I remember now that he said to ask here.

We are for-sure passing on the one photographed here.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 20, 2012)

That heifer is in some SERIOUS need of some groceries, i.e., mineral like copper.  We've had Angus steers like her and they were just as brown as her all because they had no copper in their diet.  Putting out a mineral block fixed that.  

But regardless if she's dairy, I've seen dairy heifers in better shape than her and she's in pretty rough shape, IMO.

And Red's spot on about her feet and legs.  She's too pigeon-toed (toed-out) at the front and pretty cow-hocked at the back.  Not good for a heifer like her.  The angle of the hock has to be angled so that the lower leg (cannon bone) is straight up to her hip. Toes on all four feet should be turned in so that they're facing forward on an equal plane. Front knees should be straighter.

Also, her temperament tells me she's been spoiled rotten.  She needs to be taught some manners, that's for sure!

Now, a question: are you dead set on buying a heifer as your first family milk cow?  Because if I were you I'd look for an older cow, more because they're already trained to accept some hands on her udder and, when you get her bred, she'll be easier to handle and calve out.

As for udder conformation, the teats need to be small (not coke-bottle type) and evenly spaced apart. The rear quarters should not be hanging down low (which is what well-attached means) so that they're at risk of dragging on the ground.  Overall, the udder should be nice and tight up to the body.

Here's a good link to read regarding conformation in cattle:

http://www.wikihow.com/Judge-Conformation-in-Cattle (comes with lots of pictures and not just words)

And some tips/sites on judging udder conformation in cattle:
http://beef.unl.edu/learning/udder_score.shtml
http://www.hereford.org/static/files/udderscoringfactsheet.pdf

Mammary anatomy:
http://classes.ansci.illinois.edu/ansc438/mamstructure/anatomy_1.html


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## redtailgal (Apr 21, 2012)

I agree with Wildrose, if you can get a trained milker that would be great.


 However, remember, most folks are not gonna part with a trained milker unless there is a problem.  If you find one already in milk, proceed VERY cautiously.  I've seen "mad" milkers (ones that are really not fun to milk) get a little sedative before being seen, or lame cattle given pain meds so they dont limp.  Cows in milk sold because they routinely prolapse when bred, the list goes on and on and on.  Anyone willing to sell a cow in milk immediately puts up red flags for me.

Ask a lot of questions, go over the cow thoroughly, and take an experience milker with you.


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## mangus580 (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for all the input!  We really appreciate it.

We finally got a couple pictures of the one we are going to look at tomorrow...

Here is probably the best full body shot sent.







Here is what we were told about her....



> Leonna Noelle (born on Christmas Day 2010) was bought by us as more of a "pet" cow when she was only 6 weeks old. We fed her by bottle and then continued on milk replacer until she was mature enough to be outside free range....feeding on the grass. We have also spoiled her a bit and given her grain each night as a treat (just 1 standard scoop).
> 
> She has been trained to walk out to our pasture by a lead (fancy dog leash of sorts) and since our pasture hasn't been fenced she is tied up to a stake which we move daily to change up her scenery.
> 
> ...


Mike (beanjeepin's other half)


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## redtailgal (Apr 21, 2012)

She was born in 2010?  Is this right?  She looks younger than that.

That would put her over 2 years old and only 700 pounds?


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## mangus580 (Apr 21, 2012)

She is guessing the weight - honestly I dont think she knows how much she weighs...

She does look small - but we dont mind small, as long as its not a problem (actually prefer it)


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## herfrds (Apr 21, 2012)

Need to have those stickers on her head removed.

She does look better then the first one though. Would like to see more pics of this second one.


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## redtailgal (Apr 21, 2012)

Small could be a problem, actually.

You'll have to bred her periodically to freshen her, and her small size could lead to birthing problems.

Are you sure that birthday is correct?  If not, it may not be a big deal.  I think that its not right, I'd expect her to have larger horns than that if she were born in 2010.  Could it be 2011?  It would make more sense.

Her attitude sounds great, and as for conformation, she looks OK.  Just OK, but good enough to be a family cow.

The muck in her hair does concern me.  I cant tell from the pic if its mud or poop.  If she has poop in her hair, something is wrong.  If its just mud, well, she's just a slob, lol.

She is also too thin, in my opinion, and would need to get some more condition on her, and would possibly need a fecal exam and a worming, but thats not terribly expensive and really should be a standard action when bringing home any cow of any condition.

I'd go give her a look.  If she was in fact born in 2010, I'd have to pass on her too, I'm afraid.  I would be terribly afraid to breed her.  IF she is, indeed, a 2010 calf, she is not only small, but underdeveloped, and that could lead to some problems.

If she is actually a 2011 calf, then check to make sure that it's mud on her, and not her own runny poop.  Take a close look at her eyes.......bright and clear and attentive.

She should be curious about you, and should allow you to touch her udder without making you afraid (if she's never been milked, she may side step a little, thats ok, just no kicking or headbutting).

Since she is horned, pay close attention to how she uses her head.  She should have been trained to keep her head still and be careful of those horns.  Of course, you'll have to train YOURSELF to be careful and watchful of the horns, no matter how friendly she is.  She could hurt you by swatting at a fly without realizing you are in the way.

In short, if she was born in 2010, run away and keep looking.

2011,  maybe a good cow for you to have.


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## peteyfoozer (Apr 21, 2012)

.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 21, 2012)

peteyfoozer said:
			
		

> the very FIRST thing I would do, is joint the KeepingAFamilyCow pro boards forum and let them know what area you are in and what you are looking for. It would be SO much easier to get an experienced milked for your first cow, otherwise it might sour you on the whole deal...... I would get on those boards and find the RIGHT cow for you...


 Are you saying that this forum isn't good enough for someone looking to buy a family milk cow, or practically any cow for that matter?  I think you need to read the forum rules about this site before you go ahead and start advertising about another forum on here, no matter if don't think you're doing it intentionally or not.

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/misc.php?action=rules



> 9. Do not promote other similar websites that could be considered in competition to BackYardHerds. Sometimes it may be appropriate to link to another site that has specific information relative to a question, but moderators have to right to remove links and posts at their discretion.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 21, 2012)

Once again, I have to agree with Redtail with this girl.  She does NOT look like a 2 to 3 year old cow, she's a heifer that's gotta be less than 15 months old.  I'm also raising the BS flag on the statement that "Over time she will gain more weight, but I don't expect her to get much bigger in size."  Because she's got Holstein in her she will get to a bigger size than she is now.  I've seen Holstein-Jersey cross cows before and they're not small cows.  I would think a Jersey-Holstein may reach a mature weight of 1200 lbs, and that's a fair size for a family milk cow.

The angle of the pic is off, too much that I can't see much of her conformation.  Her back legs don't look that improved from the first heifer, and I think she also still looks toed-out on all four feet. IMO, no better than the first one, just her hair coat makes her look a little better, but not really good enough (again, IMO.) And once again, it may be the angle of the pic, but that's what I'm seeing. 

Like Petey mentioned (aside from the unnecessary urge to go to another forum about this... ), we'd probably need a little more information to help you out here, but then again you have a much better idea of what to look for than we do, since all we can do is give you a general idea of what's best to look for.  Even the folks over at the *other forum* will still give you a very general basis and outlook of what to look for. 

And of course I asked before: Are you that set on buying a young heifer, or are you willing to consider getting an older, more experienced cow?  What size of a cow are you looking at (i.e., what are your limitations in terms of weight or even size of frame)? Are you needing a cow that is a high producer (or a heifer that will potentially be a high producer), or a cow that is just going to give enough milk to feed your family (however many family members you have to feed)?  Are you looking to raise this cow just for milk, or going to have her for raising freezer beef as well, like for the chances that she drops a bull calf if/when you get her bred to calve out? 




(If I were you I would really take petey's advice about going to another forum with a grain of salt.  This forum is just as good as any for good sound advice.  We may not get as much traffic here as on the other one aforementioned, but there's still a number of members on here, not just me and Red, that are willing to take the time to help you out.)


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## 77Herford (Apr 21, 2012)

Since your experience level with cows seems low, I would go with a mature milking cow.  I am concerned with you and your children especially getting injured by a flightly younger cow.  So maybe an older cow from a dairy or a small dairy.  I like Jerseys myself and they are a bit smaller than the many Holsteins you'll find.  Either one will provide more than enough milk for a family.


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## peteyfoozer (Apr 21, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> Are you saying that this forum isn't good enough for someone looking to buy a family milk cow, or practically any cow for that matter?  I think you need to read the forum rules about this site before you go ahead and start advertising about another forum on here, no matter if don't think you're doing it intentionally or not.


My apologies. I only brought it up because it specializes in family cows and there are a LOT of people there with cows for sale. I was trying to help her find more choices than just the 2 cows she has looked at. I was in no way diminishing this forum, and it was not my intention to do anything that was against the rules or offensive. I just assumed this was a place people come to try and get information and share their knowledge or experiences. I never considered any of these forums to be competition to one another. I frequent them all and find all of them to be very helpful, and have made recommendations to all of them, including this one.
Please forgive my ignorance. It won't happen again.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 21, 2012)

peteyfoozer said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
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This forum certainly is a place people come to get/share information, knowledge and experiences, for sure, but according to the rules, it's not allowed to be directing folks to another forum.

Apology accepted.


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## mangus580 (Apr 21, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> She was born in 2010?  Is this right?  She looks younger than that.
> 
> That would put her over 2 years old and only 700 pounds?


Born xmas 2010, makes her about 16 months old now.  Does that make a little more sense?


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## redtailgal (Apr 21, 2012)

peteyfoozer said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
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Petey........stuff happens.  We get defensive of our forum cuz we just love it so much here, lol.  

I look forward to hearing your input again!


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## redtailgal (Apr 21, 2012)

mangus580 said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
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I've had a hard day.  I get to have a stooopid moment (or two).

Yes, that makes more sense.  lol

SORRY!


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## Royd Wood (Apr 21, 2012)

Nowt wrong with stooopid moments and pour another vino gal 

wildrosebeef - so harsh towards peteyfoozer - it might look different from your armchair but perhaps the info given was appropriate  Never been a supporter of  protectionism 

Sometimes it may be appropriate to link to another site that has specific information relative to a question


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 22, 2012)

Royd Wood said:
			
		

> Nowt wrong with stooopid moments and pour another vino gal
> 
> wildrosebeef - so harsh towards peteyfoozer - it might look different from your armchair but perhaps the info given was appropriate  Never been a supporter of  protectionism
> 
> *Sometimes it may be appropriate to link to another site that has specific information relative to a question*


Well see I wouldn't've jumped on her like that if she did that.  But I admit, I get a bit too blunt at times, so my bad.

Petey, if you're reading this again, please don't take my comments as something to chase you away from the forums about.  I admit I can be a bit of a hard-arse at times, but I really mean no harm by it!


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## 77Herford (Apr 22, 2012)

http://ithaca-ny.americanlisted.com/garden-house/dairy-cattle-for-sale-cortland-ny_20826719.html

This looks promising.  I don't know how far away they are from you but seem to have alot of mature and experienced milk cows.


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## mangus580 (Apr 22, 2012)

So we made the trek to look at Leonna today.  I have to say, I have never met such a friendly cow.  Well, if you can call her a cow, if you ask her, she is just an overgrown DOG!  She is very sweet, gentle, and seems to understand how to behave.  She has probably the EXACT demeanor we want in a cow.  I don't think that even if we hand raised one ourselves we could pull off such results.  If we could go on just this alone, i would have found a way to strap her to the roof of the Jetta wagon!  (there is a reason we didnt bring the suburban/trailer LOL).

Sadly, we cant base our purchase solely on that.  I will say, that we hope that her personality may be able to help to overlook and trump some of the issues we found visible....  We don't mind a cow who is not perfect.  We dont even mind a few problems...  We just don't want to put ourselves in a position that may require costly vet bills in the future or other similar problems that could be avoided.  So with that said, as we pick apart her problems, keep all of this in mind.  As you point out things that could be a major issue in the future, please try to explain why, and what can possibly be done to work with it.

What we saw....

She clearly looks a little thin.  We suspect that coming off of winter has helped to cause this, as well as the current owners location is currently paying $10 a bale for hay!!!  Not sure if you remember the heavy floods that parts of NY got a little over a year ago, but this is the area.  He was saying that most of the hay fields in the area had to be reseeded, and they are trucking hay in from as far as Canada.  She does not appear IMO to be 'starved', but certainly not 'well fed'.  I think the combination of winter and low food supply caused this, and I don't feel it will be a long term issue?  I presume she will fill in quite nicely with adequate feed.  (yes/no?) 

She is on the smaller side.  We learned today that she is not Jersey/Holstein, but rather Jersey/Ayrshire.  I suspect this makes her look a little smaller than originally anticipated.  She measures exactly 48" at her back, in the pictures for size reference the kids are average height 8 and 6 year olds and the woman is 5'11".  We are very happy with her size overall, as its roughly what we had in mind when we first started considering a cow.  If determined she might be too small for breeding, we have considered the concept of breeding with a smaller breed like a Dexter?  I am sure bred in that manner it would create potentially desirable smaller offspring for family cows? Thoughts??  Also, if she is smaller because of the aforementioned possible lack of nutrition (which we really don't know if she's supposed to be this size or larger) we are aware that might impact calving, looking for thoughts on that.

We also noticed she seems kind of dirty.  I am not sure if I am too worried about this, given her living conditions.  During the day, she lives tied to that post you see in her pictures.  At night, she lives in a stall, that's probably 12'x12' give or take.  I know from my experience on a dairy farm as a kid, that cows can get dirty during a long winter of being kept inside (all winter).  I would also suspect that being tied in the same general area when not in the barn certainly isnt going to help.  We feel that she will clean up nicely, and living happily in a fenced pasture, lean-to/barn with free access, she will be able to keep herself clean as usual.

I took the time to wander around her area some and look at her manure.  I was looking to see if there was any signs of long term diarrhea.  I did not see any, most her cow-pies were normal as far as I could tell.  I did discover one that looked like it was softer than it should be and its pictured.  It looked semi fresh, and I suspect she just had an off day.  I presume just like humans, cows have off days from time to time too....  Eyes seemed bright, clear and attentive, nose clear with just some wetness (not running like the other) and she was certainly interested in her surroundings.

I did my best to get a decent picture of her udder...  its in the album listed below.  I made a couple of minor attempts at checking her reaction to touching her udder.  She was obviously uncomfortable, but didn't attempt to knock me on my ass... She did pick her foot up a little, but then decided to just sidestep instead of kicking.  I can tell you that she behaved MUCH MUCH better than any goat I have attempted the same with!!

We paid close attention to how she managed her horns.  It was very clear that she knew to be careful with her horns.  She had a playful attitude like the previous cow we looked at, but she handled it totally different.  She didn't bash me with her head and push me around... she just put her head down, with her forehead flat on me, and just a gentle nudge.  She was very careful to make sure she didn't have her horns involved when she did it.  I did note once or twice where she scraped me with them by mistake, but that was probably more my fault than hers.  The current owner talked like he had intended to 'band' the horns soonish?  His comment was they have to be a certain size or the bands just fall off?  The method of de-horning I am used to, is to burn them off as a baby.  I had not heard of banding them before.....  Thoughts???

So here we are at probably my BIGGEST concern.... Her front foot stance.  Her front hooves point outward at a reasonable angle.  Many of you have pointed this out as something to look for, and sadly we found it.  Now... We need to understand what this means.  What kind of long term problem will she have because of this?  What causes it?  Is it correctable?  Is it hereditary (will offspring have similar problems?)  What will aggravate future problems (concrete, gravel, general terrain), and what can help minimize problems?  This is probably the biggest thing we are worried about at this point, and hope that its the kind of thing that can be worked with....


With all that said, we REALLY like her.  I don't think a better personality can be found.  I wish I had a camera with me that could do video, as it really would show much more than I can describe.  While being a very loving cow, she was not in our face, and bashing us about trying to get our attention.  She made herself known, and left it at that.  Unlike the other one, who would take a step back at first when approaching her, Leonna actually meets you halfway.  Like I said.... don't tell this overgrown dog, that she is a cow!!  As far as she knows, all dogs get milked, right???



Some thoughts we wanted to share on purchasing a mature milker.  Honestly, this scares us more than purchasing a very well behaved new milker... for different reasons.  MOST people that sell a mature milker do it for a reason... (like someone stated in a post above...)  We are more worried about a dishonest seller than we are about having to patiently work through teaching a cow how to milk.  We are currently working through 2 new milking goats, and while I understand cows attitudes can be a bit different, I am confident we can manage quite well.  I would be more concerned with getting a mature milker that someone has masked a kicking problem or another serious issue simply to get rid of her....


Because Leonna loves the camera, and I took somewhere around 48 pictures, I am just going to provide the link to the album...  I cant tell you how many times she tried to take it from me!!  Every time she heard the shutter when I finally got away from her, she came running...

https://picasaweb.google.com/114220096143054811016/20120422?authuser=0&feat=directlink


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 22, 2012)

I don't think you should not consider her because she's imperfect as far as conformation is concerned.  For most of us producers, legs and feet are important if an animal has a long way to travel from food to water. Improper structure can lead to issues like arthritis, worn joints, lameness, etc. But I believe in your situation you don't have this issue to contend with since it sounds like you don't have a big farm where she has to travel a half mile or more from pasture to water and back again, so I really would not worry about it.

It's not correctable, it is hereditary, and what causes it is poor genetics. Again, it will aggravate when she's a mature cow if she's got a long way to travel, and I believe even if she's on a hard surface all her life (like the concrete floors most dairy cows in conventional systems have to live with).  It also may cause issues with her hooves, since she probably won't wear them evenly and may need trimming regularly, particularly when she reaches adulthood. But generally if she's not on concrete, doesn't have far to travel nor has to be on her feet most of the time, it may be just another fault to live with. 

Her back legs sure look a bit better than the other heifer, that's for sure! 

Udder doesn't look too bad, nice ligament structure in the back, but the rear teats a little too close together for my liking.  But since, I believe, she's not being put on a machine this also shouldn't be something to worry too much about.

And though she is in not the greatest condition, IMO she looks a little bit better conditioned than the first heifer you looked at. 

She should be bred to a calving-ease bull, being either Jersey or Dexter, or if you're looking for freezer beef, a proven calving-ease Angus bull.

And certainly she will fill in with some good feed, not to mention good grass!  

The fact that she's really docile is a huge plus for you folks.  But those horns do need to be tipped, regardless if she is or seems really careful or not.  I've never heard of banding then, just dehorning by cutting, sawing or burning.


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## BeanJeepin (Apr 22, 2012)

You're right, we don't have far for her to go.  We have 4ish acres and with some of it woods, the grass, hay, water and shelter (and attention) for her will all be in a smaller area (that we're hoping to expand as we cut back the woods some, but not too far, certainly not a half mile, and it'll be her choice how far she goes, not something she HAS to do).  I like to think she might have it sort of good here.  

We've discussed machine milking, but do not have a machine.  We've been hand milking the goats.  It'd be nice if we could eventually machine milk, but we do have the ability to hand milk.  If we have to machine milk two teats at a time, that's an option too.

She is careful with the horns, but we ARE looking into getting rid of them.  It was easy to see how she could even accidentally hurt someone with them, good as she is.  

Thank you, we really appreciate you looking over the pictures and your input.  Honestly we've fallen in love since she's what we'd hoped for and are trying to distance ourselves from that to look at the whole picture.  It's a huge investment of time, money and heart as you well know so we do want to make a good decision.


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## 77Herford (Apr 23, 2012)

For a family cow she looks fine.  Those front legs won't be and issue as I don't think you plan on showing her.  She could certainly use some more weight on her but with a few month of good food and care she should improve.  Those hooves certainly need some attention and her coat a good brushing at least.  
Since you have to breed her to get milk, I would go with an Angus with a proven low birth weight.  It will make a good freezer beef and a little profit on the side.


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## Bossroo (Apr 23, 2012)

Just a word of caution for those milking a family cow, goats, or sheep.   In a TV broadcast in N Oregon, an organic farm was selling RAW milk to their customers for a number of years.  It seems that there are now quite a few of their customers and their children are now infected with e-coli and in hospitals, some in very serious condition.     The State Labs have tested the cows udders, milking equipment and housing that were found to have  high concentrations of e- coli.            State officials are always recommending pasturization of all milk from all family cows, goats, sheep.


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## redtailgal (Apr 23, 2012)

My hubby, both my boys and I all grew up on raw milk, and not once did we get sick.  If you milk a clean udder and use clean equipment, you'll be fine.  Use HOT water to wash your equipment, and remember that the udder is below the pooper, so clean it well and keep the skin from drying out and having open sores. 

I have a buddy in Kansas who was infected from E-coli, and end up in ICU.  He got it from a bag of salad that he bought at the Grocery store.

Coon's are smart enough to wash it before they eat.  It's that simple.

As for the cow:

I'm so glad that you liked her.  The fact that you like her so much, tells me that you need to seriously consider getting her.

A few thought for you to consider:

Her feet look awful.  I HIGHLY recommend that you locate someone who can trim her feet.  I've looked at and studied her feet and legs, and I honestly think that a foot trim would correct some of the legs issues that we are seeing.  Her hooves are grown to the point that she can't stand properly.  SHe hasnt been able to wear them down properly because she's been tied to the same area that is obviously soft and muddy by the looks of her coat.

Do you know what sort of worming routine her owner follows?  If she is wormed regularly and has been tied to a post, you are looking at some resistant worms for sure.  It's not a big deal, but requires a little planning on  your part.  Find out what the previous owner worms with, and DONT use that.  When you bring her home, put her in a place that she will not be permanently, tie her out for a day or two if you  need too.  WOrm her and let her shed out her resistant worms there, THEN put her in your pasture.  This way you dont infect your pasture with resistant worms.  You could possibly tie her in this location each time  you worm her, to help keep your pasture "clean" from resistant parasites.

As for her being thin, yes, she does need some groceries, but I think she is more in need of some muscle development.  Tied cattle dont move around enough to develop the large muscles and often look thin.

Just so you know,  I think that these problems, the feet, the worms, and the thinness all go back to being tied.  Once her feet are timmed properly, and she is given pasture to move around on, you will likely  not need to trim her feet again.

At her age, with some proper care and a good pasture, she should fill out enough to give you some calves, if you are careful in your sire selection.

I would probably giver her a go.

ETA: horns.  I dont like the banding method, but mostly because I'm not good at it.   I would call the vet, price having him removed the horns and decided from there.  I'll earn some grief for saying this, but I'd keep a horned cow before I'd band a horn.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 23, 2012)

I must've missed the part where she was actually tied up and not in an fenced area... :/  But yeah, that's part of the reason for her bad feet, so with some hoof trimming like everyone else encourages and room around to walk on your farm, she'll likely feel a lot better.  I know she'll love the extra room to run around in! 

So if I were you I'd go ahead with the purchase.  She seems like she'll do well for you.


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## mangus580 (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks for all the input! 

One other question...   What do you think about the $700 asking price?


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 23, 2012)

I dunno about what the others would think, but that sounds reasonable...doing some quick math it seems like the owner is asking for $1/lb, which is a little less than the going price for beef heifers about the same weight.  So yeah, sounds reasonable for a dairy heifer.

See what the others think though.


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## redtailgal (Apr 23, 2012)

I'd give 700 for her.  Sounds fair enough to me.


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## mangus580 (Apr 23, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> I dunno about what the others would think, but that sounds reasonable...doing some quick math it seems like the owner is asking for $1/lb, which is a little less than the going price for beef heifers about the same weight.  So yeah, sounds reasonable for a dairy heifer.
> 
> See what the others think though.


Thats exactly what they are working from.

I am considering offering a little less, just as she originally listed her as 'best offer'...  

Also debating, they have a surge milker in the barn... debating asking to have that tossed in the deal as well...  Not sure I want to mess with it for just one cow, and 2 goats though.


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## BeanJeepin (Apr 23, 2012)

mangus580 said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, and we're not really certain she's actually 700 lbs.


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## clarmayfarm (Apr 23, 2012)

Hi, I will throw my two cents in, hope it is worth something.  I am a long time dairy farmer, we milk Holsteins in Virginia.


I would be a bit nervous because this heifer sounds too cheap...is she possibly a freemartin (twin to a bull?), which can never become pregnant?  If she was purchased at a livestock barn by the person who owns her now, I would be afraid of this...$1.00 / lb sounds cheap to me.  It is very common for dairy farmers to sell heifer calves soon after birth that are twins because 95% of them will never breed.

She looks fairly nice, and her feet, while needing a trim, are fine. Lots of cows "toe out", is perfectly normal.  She is a little thin, but this could be partly genetic. Some dairy cows and heifers are naturally thin, and they will keep that thin look ,especially when lactating.  I agree, worming her is a good idea.

The horns need to go, and banding will not work.  Horns are made of "fingernail" material, and banding them will do nothing. As large as they are, they will have to be cut with a large dehorner, def. by someone with experience, or a veterinarian. Horns that large will bleed after being cut and the vet will often cauterize them and clamp off the veins at the base to prevent too much bleeding.



I read your information about a mature cow being sold for a reason...that is true, but often the reason can be minor for a family cow.  Most dairy farmers, especially a respectable family farm owner, would work with you to get a cow that works. A cow that may be low for a commercial producing herd (for example, 40 lbs day instead of 70), but would be perfect for a family.  Sometimes, herds become crowded and the herd must sell some for dairy purposes. Cows may be sold because of low milk production, lameness, difficulty walking on concrete, reproduction, mastitis, etc. too. 

I would recommend you check into her breed-ability...a veterinarian can likely check her for you. Or go with a bred heifer or a milking cow, this way you know they are fertile.


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## mangus580 (Apr 23, 2012)

Ok, so on the freemartin topic...

I know its POSSIBLE, but whats the LIKELIHOOD, that a freemartin would show a consistent heat cycle?  

Owner had stated how she had been cycling for a bit now, and she was quite obvious about it.  He even mentioned he was pretty sure she was just coming off a cycle, which may be why she did take one opportunity to attempt havin her way with me!


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## mangus580 (Apr 24, 2012)

So I did a bunch of research on the freemartin thing last night, and tossed & turned a bunch thinking it over.  This morning, it hit me... Leonna CANT be a fremartin.  Clearly stated in everything I read was that the freemartin problem only plagues cattle.  Since its clear that Leonna is of canine persuasion, its IMPOSSIBLE for her to be a freemartin.  I am more worried that she will have a large litter of puppies(calves)... like 4-5!!  than I am of her being a freemartin.....






Actually I heard back from her current owner....



> The farm she came from was small they only breed the females to sell the calves. They were mostly into raising pigs. She was not a twin.


Also, I asked her what she uses to worm with... and she says they have never wormed her!  So based on that, I am going to ask that she be wormed shortly before we pick her up.

Thanks again for all the help!


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## Bossroo (Apr 24, 2012)

x


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## mangus580 (Apr 24, 2012)

Bossroo,  we understand your concern, but we did not say anything about using raw milk.   This thread is about a particular cow.   I would appreciate it if you would take your concerns to a more appropriate thread.


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## mangus580 (Apr 26, 2012)

Just put a deposit down on Leonna 

managed to negotiate $600 

Cant wait to bring her home in a couple weeks!!!


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## redtailgal (Apr 26, 2012)

Yay!  Good job on negotiating!

Cant wait to see pics......(hint hint)


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## Bossroo (Apr 27, 2012)

x


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## Icp7147 (Apr 28, 2012)

I think you made a great purchase! A few thinks that I Want to add Just my two cents. I have been on dairy farms My whole life so I am no stranger to dairy cattle. She is normal in size for being a jersey cross if anything she is on the bigger side. As far a young cow vs old one? younger is better you will have her a lot longer and chances are that if you buy a aged cow she will not be around long before she will not breed back or has some other health issues. even under the best of care dairy cows seldom live past ten. I have known a lot that have but more often thatn not that is not the case. The horns need to go. I have had a nice old cow catch me with her horn just trying to swat a fly. also regardless of her size she will calve in just fine to a jersey or angus. and as far as her body condition goes she is a little then but that is fine in a dairy cow because if she was to fat she would be hard to breed. I hope at least some of this is helpful to you.


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