# Thoughts on this calf’s confirmation



## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 2, 2022)

I have this heifer I plan to show, what do you think of her conformation? She is a little leggy, and she’s isn’t very deep bodied.. in my opinion. Do you think she will turn out good? She’s only 4-ish months old. Also, what can I feed her to make her look better?


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## farmerjan (Oct 2, 2022)

I am a very poor judge of show animals.  Yes, she is leggy, but many grow into their legs.  What is her sire and what was his build?  Cow looks to be pretty "deep" for a hereford and they make good stocky cows.... She also does not have alot of "butt" but again, 3-5 months is a very awkward time.  She seems calm and "handleable" and that is a BIG PLUS.  Mostly I just say to give her a little time. 
 Unless you are wanting to spend mega dollars for a " clubby show animal",  then I think you will be surprised at how well you can do with a decent home raised one.  Get her old enough to get weaned and then see how she looks.  If she is what is available to you then make the best of what you have. I think she will grow into her legs, so getting her muscled up will be your biggest challenge. Since I don't do show cattle, I cannot advise on that. 

 You may want to consider breeding AI to some of the more heavier muscled Limi bulls... there are alot of European limi's that are actually a double muscled type and that would give you some more "behind".  Also, have you considered using Gelbvieh as a bull?  Or a good strong Simmental?  They are both available in black if you want a black calf instead of red.   They tend to have pretty nice butts and muscling.  Also there are some pretty stout Charolais bulls.  A hereford cow such as your in the background of the calf should have no problem calving a bigger calf so I would not be afraid to go with a heavier built bull in the future. 

I realize you want to show her.  What is the plans for her after the shows?  Will she get sold or come back to be an addition to your herd?  Be careful of too much grain if she is going to come back to be a cow in the herd.  Too many heifers fed too much grain can sometimes get fatty udder syndrome, and they will often not make much milk.  Another reason I am not into alot of show cattle... they do not do well in the field on a day to day actual farm basis.  

There is a lady in New York that raises some awesome Simmental cattle... registered, show cattle.... that are also very practical functional cattle.  They sell for real good money... but the point being is they are very functional yet very showy cattle.... she also sponsors a couple of youth every year and the kids have to do the work with the cattle they pick out to show... My hat is off to people like that, who want to help kids get a good leg up on the showing and working of cattle.  
We sponsored my son's former gf's son and another friend with 2 steers off our cows to show.  They did all the work and only paid for the calves when they were sold.  The calves did decent, coming out in the top half of the show classes... not bad for just good decent calves.  You show for the fun and experience and learning....  it can't be all about winning....ENJOY the JOURNEY.....


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 2, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> I am a very poor judge of show animals.  Yes, she is leggy, but many grow into their legs.  What is her sire and what was his build?  Cow looks to be pretty "deep" for a hereford and they make good stocky cows.... She also does not have alot of "butt" but again, 3-5 months is a very awkward time.  She seems calm and "handleable" and that is a BIG PLUS.  Mostly I just say to give her a little time.
> Unless you are wanting to spend mega dollars for a " clubby show animal",  then I think you will be surprised at how well you can do with a decent home raised one.  Get her old enough to get weaned and then see how she looks.  If she is what is available to you then make the best of what you have. I think she will grow into her legs, so getting her muscled up will be your biggest challenge. Since I don't do show cattle, I cannot advise on that.
> 
> You may want to consider breeding AI to some of the more heavier muscled Limi bulls... there are alot of European limi's that are actually a double muscled type and that would give you some more "behind".  Also, have you considered using Gelbvieh as a bull?  Or a good strong Simmental?  They are both available in black if you want a black calf instead of red.   They tend to have pretty nice butts and muscling.  Also there are some pretty stout Charolais bulls.  A hereford cow such as your in the background of the calf should have no problem calving a bigger calf so I would not be afraid to go with a heavier built bull in the future.
> ...


Thank you for all the time you took in replying. I’m not sure how her sir was built, there were a few bulls in the field with my Hereford, but the one that I think bred her was pretty small.

When I’m done showing her, she will be in with the herd and be a breeder. I don’t know if I’ll be able to afford AI, I have thought about that before, as I want to breed better cattle. We mainly have access to Brangus, Angus, and I have seen a few Hereford bulls. That’s it of what I know of.

Her mama is a little deep, but not as deep as some I’ve seen at shows.

Also, yes, I am showing for fun, it’s my last year in 4-H, so I do want to bring something that has a little bit of chance, if that makes sense


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 2, 2022)

Here’s my cow. Hopefully when she gets bred back, I can look at the bulls and pick the one with best confirmation.


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## Mini Horses (Oct 2, 2022)

I think the heifer has potential...certainly with your desire to help her succeed.  She'll polish up good with that black.coat.😀.  Keep us updated on her -- we love follow ups.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 2, 2022)

Mini Horses said:


> I think the heifer has potential...certainly with your desire to help her succeed.  She'll polish up good with that black.coat.😀.  Keep us updated on her -- we love follow ups.


Thank you so much!! I’ll definitely keep y’all updated


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## farmerjan (Oct 2, 2022)

I would say that more than likely it was a brangus that bred her looking at the leg.  They tend to be leggier looking when they are younger.  So, there is a very good chance she will "grow into her legs"..
That said,  I also think when she sheds out after this winter, she will slick up also,  like @Mini Horses said. 
 I know that people that raise lambs for show do all sorts of walking and things to help them develop their hindquarters.  Again, I just don't have the experience. 
 I do not see anything wrong with her confirmation overall. She has a good straight back, her underline follows her back... not pot bellied or sway backed at all.  She seems to stand very good on her feet...very square and even.  I think that her legs look long partially because she is young and her body is still "calfish".... I still think she will grow into her legs. 
When are you planning on showing her?  I am thinking winter/next spring?  She will do A LOT of growing between now and then.  
The cow has a real nice topline also... like those straighter backs on cattle.  They seem to hold up better longer  when they are evenly balanced top and bottom line, with good feet under them as they stand square. 

I get wanting to have a good "last year" in 4-H.  I was a 4-H member for many years,  I only had my own horse that I rode western and the rest of the club rode english so it was an interesting thing at the shows.  But they all made me as much a part of it as anyone else.  And I also showed at the county fairs and such in all the gymkhana games, like barrel racing and pole bending... because I spent so much time with my horse she was much more tractable than some and we did good.  Had her for 27 years... 
I think that you will be able to polish up your heifer so that she shows well in her classes, especially things like fitting and showing.  That is as much YOUR skill as her confirmation... 
I want to see her in a few months too... Betcha her legs "shrink" in comparison to her body !!!!


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 2, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> I would say that more than likely it was a brangus that bred her looking at the leg.  They tend to be leggier looking when they are younger.  So, there is a very good chance she will "grow into her legs"..
> That said,  I also think when she sheds out after this winter, she will slick up also,  like @Mini Horses said.
> I know that people that raise lambs for show do all sorts of walking and things to help them develop their hindquarters.  Again, I just don't have the experience.
> I do not see anything wrong with her confirmation overall. She has a good straight back, her underline follows her back... not pot bellied or sway backed at all.  She seems to stand very good on her feet...very square and even.  I think that her legs look long partially because she is young and her body is still "calfish".... I still think she will grow into her legs.
> ...


Thank you so much!! Yes, her sir was a Brangus. I will definitely keep y’all updated on her, my fair in next summer, she will be a year old by then.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 4, 2022)

I brushed her today, was thinking about clipping her Saturday, but with cold weather coming, I don’t know if I should. Also, I feed her about 6 cups of 12% feed a day, of that enough feed? Or should she be eating more?


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## farmerjan (Oct 4, 2022)

Is she still on her mom?  I would up it a bit;  they say that at least 2% of body weight so if she weighs 300 lbs that would be 6 lbs... and the general weights are "a pints's a pound"... and there are 2 cups per pint....  so i would think that you could go to a gallon at least... maybe as much as double what you are feeding, per day. Also, my choice would be a higher protein... 14-16%.  Calves get more of their needs met with a higher protein feed .... and will convert it to body growth and weight.  12% is maintenance... I always fed mine a 14% calf feed and they got about a gallon bucket a day...for starters.  
For example, I have 9 coming in the barn now, 3-5 months old, 3 are weaned off cows that were very poor milkers...6 are on their momma's... they are getting a 5 gallon bucket a day.  The 6 on the cows are fat and sassy, the other 3 are starting to put on a little weight... but don't look that great.  There is plenty of good grass... the 3 should be getting about 3+ gallons of feed a day but it is hard to separate them out so I try to just feed extra when they are in the feed trough and sorta keep the others away from them during the feeding.    It is a 14% calf feed.
I would try upping her feed a little at a time for a week or 2 and then try to find a little higher protein feed.  
I wouldn't clip her with the cold weather coming on unless you want to just try a little bit so that she gets used to the clippers.  Let her get all wooly so that her hair will help retain her body heat.  The higher amount of protein will also help her... and you could give her a little cracked or rolled or even whole corn which would give her more energy which puts on some fat and helps to keep her warm.  At her age, too fat is NOT a concern.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 4, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> Is she still on her mom?  I would up it a bit;  they say that at least 2% of body weight so if she weighs 300 lbs that would be 6 lbs... and the general weights are "a pints's a pound"... and there are 2 cups per pint....  so i would think that you could go to a gallon at least... maybe as much as double what you are feeding, per day. Also, my choice would be a higher protein... 14-16%.  Calves get more of their needs met with a higher protein feed .... and will convert it to body growth and weight.  12% is maintenance... I always fed mine a 14% calf feed and they got about a gallon bucket a day...for starters.
> For example, I have 9 coming in the barn now, 3-5 months old, 3 are weaned off cows that were very poor milkers...6 are on their momma's... they are getting a 5 gallon bucket a day.  The 6 on the cows are fat and sassy, the other 3 are starting to put on a little weight... but don't look that great.  There is plenty of good grass... the 3 should be getting about 3+ gallons of feed a day but it is hard to separate them out so I try to just feed extra when they are in the feed trough and sorta keep the others away from them during the feeding.    It is a 14% calf feed.
> I would try upping her feed a little at a time for a week or 2 and then try to find a little higher protein feed.
> I wouldn't clip her with the cold weather coming on unless you want to just try a little bit so that she gets used to the clippers.  Let her get all wooly so that her hair will help retain her body heat.  The higher amount of protein will also help her... and you could give her a little cracked or rolled or even whole corn which would give her more energy which puts on some fat and helps to keep her warm.  At her age, too fat is NOT a concern.


She is still on her mom, but her mom doesn’t make much milk, so she mostly is growing off hay, grass, and feed. She started eating hay and feed when she was about 1-2 weeks. Now she is 3 months. I will look into a higher protein feed and feed her a lot more, what do you feed your calves? Although, when I give her more feed, she doesn’t want to eat it all, that’s why I ended up giving her a little less.


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## Stephine (Oct 5, 2022)

The headline made me crack up! Did she learn her bible verses? 
I know it’s an easy typo to make…


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## farmerjan (Oct 5, 2022)

If the cow doesn't make much milk then that is unfortunately a big strike against her.   The whole purpose of a beef cow is to make milk so the calf will grow and get real good flesh on it.  Your calf is being starved of the nutrients it should be getting from the cow.  That is in part why her coat is not slick and shiny.  
I would get the calf a higher protein feed either 14 or 16% ... feed up to double what you are feeding her and try to cut back on the hay a little so she will eat more of the grain.  I would also consider weaning her off early and just feeding the calf what she needs... she is not getting the nutrition that she needs.   They will eat more hay to "fill up the empty feeling"....but she will not get enough nutrition that way.  Or you could separate the calf for 12 hours at a time, hopefully she will want more feed, then when she goes on the cow she will get a good "feeding of milk"... but she is getting more nutrition from the grain.   That will also make weaning alot easier if she is used to being by herself... or maybe with a 2nd calf for company?


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 6, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> If the cow doesn't make much milk then that is unfortunately a big strike against her.   The whole purpose of a beef cow is to make milk so the calf will grow and get real good flesh on it.  Your calf is being starved of the nutrients it should be getting from the cow.  That is in part why her coat is not slick and shiny.
> I would get the calf a higher protein feed either 14 or 16% ... feed up to double what you are feeding her and try to cut back on the hay a little so she will eat more of the grain.  I would also consider weaning her off early and just feeding the calf what she needs... she is not getting the nutrition that she needs.   They will eat more hay to "fill up the empty feeling"....but she will not get enough nutrition that way.  Or you could separate the calf for 12 hours at a time, hopefully she will want more feed, then when she goes on the cow she will get a good "feeding of milk"... but she is getting more nutrition from the grain.   That will also make weaning alot easier if she is used to being by herself... or maybe with a 2nd calf for company?


Ok, thank you! I do plan to get her in a higher protein, she does actually have a pretty thick coat, it’s been cold here so she’s not shiny do you the winter coat she is getting in


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 6, 2022)

Also, yes, we have a second calf that she will be weaned with


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 10, 2022)

Her today, she keeps putting all her head weight in the halter, she won’t hold her head up too well, is there away I can get her to start holding her head?


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## farmerjan (Oct 10, 2022)

I have no idea how to help you with making her hold her head up higher.  I think these pictures make her look nicer than the first ones you posted... so she is "looking better" than she did in my opinion.  She seems very agreeable to being haltered so I think that just some time working with her will improve her stance....


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 13, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> I have no idea how to help you with making her hold her head up higher.  I think these pictures make her look nicer than the first ones you posted... so she is "looking better" than she did in my opinion.  She seems very agreeable to being haltered so I think that just some time working with her will improve her stance....


Okay, thank you 😊


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 22, 2022)

Update: I have been working with her everyday, tie up time, walking, trailer loading, brushing, etc. 
She is such a good girl, I’m happy with how she is coming along


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## farmerjan (Oct 22, 2022)

Congrats on the working with her and her doing good.  I think she looks a little more proportioned and not so leggy so she must be growing and filling out more.  It is great that you enjoy working with her so much.  She will be a real pet.... then she will hit her "teenage years"  (equivalent) and you will say, OMG what happened to that sweet little calf... much the same as parents say about their teenage daughters !!!!Sorry, I couldn't resist that...  Just please do not get upset if she goes through a rebellious or a STUBBORN stage....
Whatever you do, do not let her get away with bad behavior... You are the boss and you don't have to be a mean boss... but when she gets to be 2-3-5x your weight and size, she needs to always think of you as the boss and she is your next best buddy... not to do what she wants when she wants to.  You'll know when the time comes... and for some it never does.  I am hoping that she will always have this nice sweet disposition she seems to have now.  I had one that could make me threaten her with a "permanent once in a lifetime job at McDonalds",  at least once a week;  and I had one that was a sweetheart from calf to old age... she never was mean or hurtful... a little stubborn on occasion. They can show some real individual personalities just like people.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Oct 22, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> Congrats on the working with her and her doing good.  I think she looks a little more proportioned and not so leggy so she must be growing and filling out more.  It is great that you enjoy working with her so much.  She will be a real pet.... then she will hit her "teenage years"  (equivalent) and you will say, OMG what happened to that sweet little calf... much the same as parents say about their teenage daughters !!!!Sorry, I couldn't resist that...  Just please do not get upset if she goes through a rebellious or a STUBBORN stage....
> Whatever you do, do not let her get away with bad behavior... You are the boss and you don't have to be a mean boss... but when she gets to be 2-3-5x your weight and size, she needs to always think of you as the boss and she is your next best buddy... not to do what she wants when she wants to.  You'll know when the time comes... and for some it never does.  I am hoping that she will always have this nice sweet disposition she seems to have now.  I had one that could make me threaten her with a "permanent once in a lifetime job at McDonalds",  at least once a week;  and I had one that was a sweetheart from calf to old age... she never was mean or hurtful... a little stubborn on occasion. They can show some real individual personalities just like people.


Thank you, I am so proud of her! She definitely does seem to be filling out some, i make sure she gets a lot of feed. I definitely won’t get upset, she has already had some stubborn days, especially when it comes to walking 😂 I know patience is key working with these kinda animals, her mama taught me a lot, especially patience. 
I sure hope she stays sweet… if not, jeez, it will be a lot of work lol. I’m definitely ready though, for whatever it is.


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## canesisters (Dec 13, 2022)

sooooo..... How's she coming along?


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 13, 2022)

canesisters said:


> sooooo..... How's she coming along?


She’s coming along well, still haven’t been able to get her in a higher protein, I plan to do that soon, but she’s technically my parts calf, but I’m hoping to trade her for a dairy cow I’ve got.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 13, 2022)

I’m also currently working with my calf’s half brother, I plan to show him as well. He is about 3 weeks younger then my heifer.


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## Baymule (Dec 13, 2022)

Look at you go! Two calves! Now that’s how to do your last year in 4-H.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 13, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Look at you go! Two calves! Now that’s how to do your last year in 4-H.


Thank you!! They are both doing so well, I’m very impressed and proud of both


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## farmerjan (Dec 13, 2022)

She has definitely filled out alot.  I like the steer calf, he has a little more height and size.... but the males usually always do have more growth and size.  
That is great that you can work with both of them.  
Glad to see the updates.


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## farmerjan (Dec 13, 2022)

CaliFarmsAR said:


> She’s coming along well, still haven’t been able to get her in a higher protein, I plan to do that soon, but she’s technically my parts calf, but I’m hoping to trade her for a dairy cow I’ve got. View attachment 95000View attachment 95001


??? Parts calf???? I think it must be an "auto-correct" thing?


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 14, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> ??? Parts calf???? I think it must be an "auto-correct" thing?


It is 🤦‍♀️ sorry! I meant “parents”


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 14, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> She has definitely filled out alot.  I like the steer calf, he has a little more height and size.... but the males usually always do have more growth and size.
> That is great that you can work with both of them.
> Glad to see the updates.


Thank you! He’s actually a bull, I’m hoping to keep him that way, cuz I think he’d be a nice bull


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## Youngfarmer2019 (Dec 14, 2022)

One thing I would like to say that may help you in the show ring. I had a friend who was part of 4H and he showed a calf and outranked everyone when it came to controlling his calf in the ring all because he listened to one small piece of advice I gave him. Now, having never shown ANY animals (yet having spent over half my life around animals, i understand their cues)  I expected him to dismiss my advice, but he took it and outshone everyone. Not trying to toot my horn, please dont take this as bragging, I DO NOT mean it that way.

My advice is this: When training your calf to lead, ASK him/her to come with you, do not FORCE him/her. Animals can be high strung and sensitive, once you break a bond or trust, it takes a while to get it back (happens with EVERY animal, there is no exception, even humans)
It may seem like a very simple piece of advice but it works miracles, it will take a while for the calf to listen, but work with him every day. ASKING your calf to move with your step is so much more beautiful to watch in the ring than FORCING your calf.
Trust me, the judge will notice...good luck, keep us updated on how you do!


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 14, 2022)

Youngfarmer2019 said:


> One thing I would like to say that may help you in the show ring. I had a friend who was part of 4H and he showed a calf and outranked everyone when it came to controlling his calf in the ring all because he listened to one small piece of advice I gave him. Now, having never shown ANY animals (yet having spent over half my life around animals, i understand their cues)  I expected him to dismiss my advice, but he took it and outshone everyone. Not trying to toot my horn, please dont take this as bragging, I DO NOT mean it that way.
> 
> My advice is this: When training your calf to lead, ASK him/her to come with you, do not FORCE him/her. Animals can be high strung and sensitive, once you break a bond or trust, it takes a while to get it back (happens with EVERY animal, there is no exception, even humans)
> It may seem like a very simple piece of advice but it works miracles, it will take a while for the calf to listen, but work with him every day. ASKING your calf to move with your step is so much more beautiful to watch in the ring than FORCING your calf.
> Trust me, the judge will notice...good luck, keep us updated on how you do!


Thank you for the advice, I really appreciate it. That has been my goal, I don’t like forcing them to walk with me, it’s harder forcing them and definitely looks bad. The bull calf is still a bit skittish of people, so for him, it’s very important that I stay clam and control my energy (I’m a person with high energy and animals that are more quiet tend to be anxious around that type, form my experiences).


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 14, 2022)

Also, what age can I wean my calves? They are both still on their moms. My heifer is going to be 5 months on the 17th and the bull is over 4 months


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## farmerjan (Dec 14, 2022)

I've got 50+ years experience with cattle.  Not with show stock, but everyday experience.  I am NOT trying to damper your enthusiasm...
DO NOT keep him a bull.  If he is not registered, purebred with statistics behind him, all he will be is a nice bull at best.  At worst, he will be an uncontrollable male that is hormone driven and will hurt someone.

The advice given to you by @Youngfarmer2019 is fine..... and I agree that working with and asking an animal to do something is preferable to "making them" do something.  BUT...... a bull is a different ballgame. 
First off, I do not think that 4-H allows bulls to be shown by a member.  Rightly so.  You will have absolutely no way to control or stop him if he gets a notion when he is 6 months or more,  and weighs 6-8-900 lbs.  DON'T kid yourself.  Second, a bull will not respect just being nice.... It is bred into their hormones and psyche to be dominant... YOU will not be the dominant one of the two.  
Third... he is one of a thousands bulls born every day in this country.  By the time you got him big enough to be used for breeding at 15-20 months, you will have more in him than he will ever be worth.  EVER.... Who would he be bred to?  
Fourth.... a bull will not be satisfied to only breed one or 2 or 20 cows... once they are bred, his instincts will have him looking over the fence, testing the wind, looking for more cows in heat.  Their SOLE PURPOSE is for breeding.  On most farms that have bulls, if they let them run with the cows full time, then they are constantly checking them out to find some cow receptive to them.  On the farms that have defined breeding seasons, so the calves are all born in a certain time frame, then the bulls are taken away from the cows after 60-90 days, and put together in a "bull pasture" and there are no cows close by to tempt them.  They go through the dominance thing for a few days and then just exist as a bachelor group until they are needed to sire calves again. 

We had a bull that was a registered Red Poll. Sweetest disposition bull ever and I could go out in the pasture and take a bucket and load him in the trailer without anything else.  I trusted him as much as any bull I would ever trust... NEVER turned my back on him..... he loved to be scratched behind his ears, neck rubbed.... BUT he was a BULL.....at 12 or 13 his arthritis got bad and my grown son and I cried when he had to go because he would not get through another cold winter with his joints.  
Have 2 now that are pushing 10 years old.  Have had them since they were 15 months.  They are not threatening and I have bopped them on the nose for being pushing with a bucket a few times... BUT I never turn my back on them.  The are used for breeding purposes... I do not worry about being out in the pasture with them and their cows.... but I ALWAYS have an eye to a safe place if they get a notion.  I never made pets out of them.  

Every bull we have ever had is hopefully better than the stock we have and will put better calves on the ground than the cows are.  You strive for better genetics.  
We have raised about 5 bulls in the 30 years we have had a good sized cow herd.  2 were out of registered cows, by a registered bull.  It is not worth the money we put into them although one did go on to sire some nice calves.  We are better off keeping the best female calves to be replacements and spending the 2500-5,000 we spend on a bull to use as a breeder with records behinds the parents so we have an idea of what we are getting.  
We have one now; his momma prolapsed and died and I raised him on a nurse cow. She was  a nice heifer.   Nice dispositioned calf.  Until he was about 8 months, weaned off and then we had to figure out where to keep him.  Can't keep him with the heifers, he will breed them too young.  Can't keep him with the cows because he is never happy with the already bred cows because his hormones are telling him that he should be breeding something.  He is not happy with the steers because he now is bullying them.... Finally put him in the bull pasture with 4 bulls twice his size to knock him down a peg or 2.  He is not turning out as nice as he looked at 6 months and now is too big to castrate so he is basically useless.  And because he had so much time with people, he has no respect or fear and although he was not allowed to get away with anything, he still has no basic thought that we are the alpha..... and without any information behind him of what his sire and dam are as far as records, he is not worth anything but killing price because no one will want him as a breeder.  You pay for records behind potential herd sires.  He has none.  And I would not trust him because he has no fear or respect for us.  My son is 6'6" and he has some clout and he could not stop him if his life depended on it.  I wouldn't even try.  This bull is NOT MEAN.... he comes to call... when it suits him... he will go into the trailer with a bucket... if it suits him... but if he decides he doesn't want to... a hot shot is the only thing that will get him to do what he doesn't want to do.  I would not trust him as much as I trust the older bulls because he is young and too familiar with humans.  
People that show bulls not only have halters, but rings in their noses because the nose is the most sensitive part of a bull... and a freight train will not stop one that decides he is going to do something.  

Get him castrated and have an animal that has no hormones to make him cantankerous or hard to handle... and safer for you to work with and more likely to want to do things to please you.  
I don't know how many cows you have now.... or how much experience is in your family with cattle.  We are running 150 momma cows and have 7 bulls now because we rent pastures where we have to have bulls to put out to breed them.  We have had as many as 200 cows and 10 bulls.  I know guys with as many or more cows and bulls.  Some are great to work around and many are into the registered business and raise bulls to sell.  But keeping a bull because he is a nice looking calf is no good reason to keep him a bull.  He needs to be far outstanding above the other animals to even consider keeping him a bull.  With some statistics behind him to justify the reasoning.  If bulls were in short supply, it would be one thing... if he was a rare breed and no other males in a million miles to use to keep up the breed; okay;  but a nice bull is just a nice bull until he isn't.


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## Baymule (Dec 14, 2022)

@farmerjan is not being mean, she’s just telling you the straight up facts. That’s years of experience being shared with you. I know y’all have a farm, your family may have many years of experience also. Farmerjan may have brought out some points that you haven’t thought about.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 26, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> I've got 50+ years experience with cattle.  Not with show stock, but everyday experience.  I am NOT trying to damper your enthusiasm...
> DO NOT keep him a bull.  If he is not registered, purebred with statistics behind him, all he will be is a nice bull at best.  At worst, he will be an uncontrollable male that is hormone driven and will hurt someone.
> 
> The advice given to you by @Youngfarmer2019 is fine..... and I agree that working with and asking an animal to do something is preferable to "making them" do something.  BUT...... a bull is a different ballgame.
> ...


Thank you for all the advice on this, I really appreciate it. Sorry I didn’t get back to you, it has been crazy here. 

Being honest, at first, I was bummed because a did want to keep him a bull, but after reading this through and giving deep thought, I decided I will make sure he gets banned. I think it will help with his little temper he is getting (he’s been pushy and I’m assuming it could have to do with him being a bull). Again, thank you so much!


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 26, 2022)

Baymule said:


> @farmerjan is not being mean, she’s just telling you the straight up facts. That’s years of experience being shared with you. I know y’all have a farm, your family may have many years of experience also. Farmerjan may have brought out some points that you haven’t thought about.


I didn’t think of all that, so I am very grateful to @farmerjan for sharing the advice they did


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## farmerjan (Dec 26, 2022)

Hope you had a nice Christmas.... Did you get all the cold snowy miserable winter weather that seemed to hit 75% of us???


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 26, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> Hope you had a nice Christmas.... Did you get all the cold snowy miserable winter weather that seemed to hit 75% of us???


Thanks! I hope you did as well. Yes, we did. Friday was miserable, got up to 19° that’s it.


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## farmerjan (Dec 26, 2022)

I think I posted it on my thread but we were -2 and up to maybe 15??? Hasn't hit 32 in 3 or 4 days.  Not fun but at least most of the ice is off the trees... from the wind more than thawing.  Been tough to be this cold this early in the season for us here.  And the wet cold rain/sleet/ice... had some calves born but they seem to be okay so far....


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## CaliFarmsAR (Dec 26, 2022)

farmerjan said:


> I think I posted it on my thread but we were -2 and up to maybe 15??? Hasn't hit 32 in 3 or 4 days.  Not fun but at least most of the ice is off the trees... from the wind more than thawing.  Been tough to be this cold this early in the season for us here.  And the wet cold rain/sleet/ice... had some calves born but they seem to be okay so far....


Oh jeez that is cold and horrible. Here we are going to be up to 60s° by the week end, I’m getting down with this weather goin hot, cold, hot. Glad to hear your calves are okay so far, hopefully you’ll be able to keep it that way and they’ll continue to be okay during this cold weather. I just separated both mine to wean them from their mums.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Jan 3, 2023)

Question for y’all, how can I be getting more muscle on my two calves? We don’t give any shots that help grow the calves bigger faster, my parents like the all natural route. I have been told walking them will help, but how far do the need to be walked then? And does this actually help/work?


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## Youngfarmer2019 (Jan 4, 2023)

CaliFarmsAR said:


> Question for y’all, how can I be getting more muscle on my two calves? We don’t give any shots that help grow the calves bigger faster, my parents like the all natural route. I have been told walking them will help, but how far do the need to be walked then? And does this actually help/work?


I’ve heard walking uphill/downhill works for show goats and sheep to build muscle structure, but you have to be consistent about doing it (I’m not sure about calves). Have a schedule like once daily for a certain distance, or biweekly for a certain distance. It might work for calves, I’m not sure🤷‍♀️ I don’t raise cattle, just trying to help…
I’m glad your parents go all natural with animals, it’s best, although I can’t tell if your resentful of it or not


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## farmerjan (Jan 4, 2023)

I have never shown cattle so don't know the ins and outs.  I know that @Youngfarmer2019 is right that people that show lambs and goats do walking and that the uphill/downhill is supposed to help.... but with cattle there has to be the muscling in the genes too.  So, I am not much help on that either.   I am in agreement on the natural thing... we don't implant our calves either.  It helps them to gain more but I am not interested in that so don't go there.  We have a neighbor that implants his calves and they are a little bigger maybe, but I don't see the big benefit to it.  Plus it can mess up a heifer if you want to keep her for a potential replacement; some do not cycle properly and some just will not breed or hold the pregnancy sometimes.  Others do fine, but why take the chance? 
Are you in a 4-H club or anything where you can ask about things to improve musculature on the calves?
How are they doing since you weaned them?


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## CaliFarmsAR (Jan 4, 2023)

Youngfarmer2019 said:


> I’ve heard walking uphill/downhill works for show goats and sheep to build muscle structure, but you have to be consistent about doing it (I’m not sure about calves). Have a schedule like once daily for a certain distance, or biweekly for a certain distance. It might work for calves, I’m not sure🤷‍♀️ I don’t raise cattle, just trying to help…
> I’m glad your parents go all natural with animals, it’s best, although I can’t tell if your resentful of it or not


Okay thank you!! I love that my parents do all natural, it’s so much better, but sometimes I wonder if that’s why my cattle don’t look as “fit” 😂


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## CaliFarmsAR (Jan 4, 2023)

farmerjan said:


> I have never shown cattle so don't know the ins and outs.  I know that @Youngfarmer2019 is right that people that show lambs and goats do walking and that the uphill/downhill is supposed to help.... but with cattle there has to be the muscling in the genes too.  So, I am not much help on that either.   I am in agreement on the natural thing... we don't implant our calves either.  It helps them to gain more but I am not interested in that so don't go there.  We have a neighbor that implants his calves and they are a little bigger maybe, but I don't see the big benefit to it.  Plus it can mess up a heifer if you want to keep her for a potential replacement; some do not cycle properly and some just will not breed or hold the pregnancy sometimes.  Others do fine, but why take the chance?
> Are you in a 4-H club or anything where you can ask about things to improve musculature on the calves?
> How are they doing since you weaned them?


Okay, thank you. I can ask around, yes. I have a friend who shows cattle and she’s been giving me some tips, we live pretty far from each other so she can’t come help, although I wish she could. 

They are doing well, I’m trying to work them after a week off due to weaning them, I thought it would be best, especially with the bull 🤦‍♀️ but my heifer is being a bit stubborn so I’m thinking it wasn’t that good if an idea, luckily, they both picked up where we left off.


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## Baymule (Monday at 6:06 AM)

Win lose or draw, this is good experience for you and you will learn a lot. Being as natural and organic as possible is a good thing. 
My Daddy was an organic gardener all his life, waaaay before organic was even something people even heard about, much less did themselves. So I just followed in his footsteps. You are blessed and fortunate to be raised up this way and to have the benefits of what your parents teach you, plus what you learn along the way.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Monday at 10:39 AM)

Baymule said:


> Win lose or draw, this is good experience for you and you will learn a lot. Being as natural and organic as possible is a good thing.
> My Daddy was an organic gardener all his life, waaaay before organic was even something people even heard about, much less did themselves. So I just followed in his footsteps. You are blessed and fortunate to be raised up this way and to have the benefits of what your parents teach you, plus what you learn along the way.


Yes it is a good experience, which is my main reason for showing. I don’t believe I will place first or anything like that, but I do want to bring something that is worth the judge to look at if that makes sense. 

And wow, that is amazing that your Daddy did all organic. I’m happy we do, we have small gardens and have them all organic, in my opinion, the food tastes better too 😋


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## CaliFarmsAR (Monday at 10:49 AM)

I trimmed up the calves top line and brisket a little yesterday and worked with em. 

The bull calf mooves (pardon the pub, couldn’t help it ) nice, a little slower when he doesn’t want to go in the direction I’m leading him in, but overall, this fella has a nice walk. 



My heifer has to be the most stubborn lil thing ever…. 🤦‍♀️ If she doesn’t want to do anything, she will be extremely stubborn, put head weight in the halter, and throw a little fit (it’s a bit funny cuz she does this thing with her front legs, reminds me of the “Spanish Walk” in horses 🤣). She is a little “butt high” (don’t know if that tern works on cattle, but I know it’s a horse term) in this pic, the ground was a bit uneven, but I think that’s just how she is growing. 🤷‍♀️


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## CaliFarmsAR (Monday at 10:52 AM)

Also, did my dairy heifer, I don’t exactly know if I’ll show her or not because that would be 3 cows goin to fair… is it possible to show 3?


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## farmerjan (Monday at 5:38 PM)

I don't think that they put restrictions if the animals are not shown in the same class .... you are only 1 person and can't show 2 at the same time unless you have magical powers and can clone yourself for the class .  One question, did you check on showing the calf as a bull??? There was recently a discussion in one of the other cattle forums I frequent, and one of the guys was talking about his kids in 4-H and that it is expressly written into the rules that no bull over 4 months can be shown by an exhibitor in the 4-H shows... that the only bulls allowed for show are in open breed shows and must be shown by an adult over 18 and have to have halters and nose rings etc.... all that... with specific statements about any bull being immediately removed from the show and the premises if they become unruly....
It made me think of you and your calf.... I think they allowed for the 4 month rule due to some showing cow/calf pairs or something.  

Your dairy heifer is pretty nice.  I would show her over the black white faced heifer if you have to make a choice.  She has nicer lines.... I realize she is older too....


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## CaliFarmsAR (Monday at 7:52 PM)

farmerjan said:


> I don't think that they put restrictions if the animals are not shown in the same class .... you are only 1 person and can't show 2 at the same time unless you have magical powers and can clone yourself for the class .  One question, did you check on showing the calf as a bull??? There was recently a discussion in one of the other cattle forums I frequent, and one of the guys was talking about his kids in 4-H and that it is expressly written into the rules that no bull over 4 months can be shown by an exhibitor in the 4-H shows... that the only bulls allowed for show are in open breed shows and must be shown by an adult over 18 and have to have halters and nose rings etc.... all that... with specific statements about any bull being immediately removed from the show and the premises if they become unruly....
> It made me think of you and your calf.... I think they allowed for the 4 month rule due to some showing cow/calf pairs or something.
> 
> Your dairy heifer is pretty nice.  I would show her over the black white faced heifer if you have to make a choice.  She has nicer lines.... I realize she is older too....


I definitely don’t have cloning powers 😂 

Bulls are allowed in my fair as far as I know, I see bulls shown there when I go and watch the shows. 

Okay, thank you. 
I just love my beef heifer, I will still work with her (and the dairy) and see how she grows out before I sign her up to be shown!


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## Baymule (Monday at 8:03 PM)

You might want to double check on the rules on showing bulls. I wouldn’t want you to do all that work and at last minute, couldn’t show.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Monday at 8:36 PM)

Baymule said:


> You might want to double check on the rules on showing bulls. I wouldn’t want you to do all that work and at last minute, couldn’t show.


 I will definitely look it up


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## CaliFarmsAR (Monday at 8:54 PM)

I just look it up, bulls are allowed, the oldest I can show is a 2yr, from what I understand


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## Baymule (Tuesday at 6:00 AM)

I know you are experienced, but please be careful. 
Does he have to have a nose ring?


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## CaliFarmsAR (Tuesday at 7:37 AM)

Baymule said:


> I know you are experienced, but please be careful.
> Does he have to have a nose ring?


Yes, bulls are required to have nose rings.


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## CaliFarmsAR (Wednesday at 6:23 PM)

Washed, blow dried, clipped/trimmed both calves. 

Bull:








Heifer:


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