# Nueral Tube Defect  - no tail - Pics pg. 1 Vet results, pg. 3



## Roll farms (Dec 6, 2011)

I never thought to check a kid to see if it had a tail / twee twee / anus before.....She ate fine, acts fine, is up walking around...
When I went to check this kid to see if she'd pooped, I couldn't find it's tail.

I look closer and there's an opening but I'm not sure if it's an anus, vulva, or penis.

Unfortunately we'll be putting 'it' down tomorrow.  The vet is going to let me know what he thinks after he's done some reading / examined it.  
And...Patch was never given Valbazen during her pregnancy.  The lady I bought her from told me she aborted last year, though.  Hmmmmmmm.

Her sister seems / looks normal.

This is it's 'butt' - no tail







The 'opening' - seen from behind






The 'opening' again, seen from the belly.


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## elevan (Dec 6, 2011)

Sometimes deformities just happen.

I'll be interested in what the vet has to say.

Some questions for you:

Was Patch ever sick during her pregnancy?  Ever have a fever during?

I can't remember...was she bred to one of your bucks or was she bought bred?


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 6, 2011)

We have a doe that has kidded twice, both times had triplets, first time, she had two badly deformed kids and second time she had one badly deformed kid. Had to pull babies both time. This will be her 3rd time being bred, We gave her a copper bolus this spring,  and by the amount of minerals I am going through, doesn't seem likely that anyone should be deficient this year, if that was even the problem. This will be her 3rd and final chance. She is going on 4 years old.


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## MenagerieMama (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh I'm sorry to see this.   This is an eye opening reality for a newbie like me who can't wait to get into breeding.  My mind seems to think only of birthing difficulties, not necessarily birth defects!  Please keep us posted when you hear from your vet.  I'm trying to learn everything I possibly can to better prepare myself.  As heartbreaking as this is, I truly appreciate you sharing this with us.


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## redtailgal (Dec 6, 2011)

I guess its not much consolation, but this is a tremendous learning opportunity for us newbs.  Thank you for sharing.  I would imagine that its not a pleasant thing for you to have to do.


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## jodief100 (Dec 6, 2011)

Thank you for sharing this difficult and educational experience with us.  

Does she have elimination organs at all?  It doesn't look like she has any way to eliminate or deficate.  

That is so sad, to be doomed from birth.  Putting her down is the right thing to do, eventually she will be in pain.  I am so sorry. 

She also looks like she has an extra teat "nub"  so you wouldn't have kept her anyways.


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## Roll farms (Dec 6, 2011)

Right now she's peeing out her cord, which is what they do in the womb.  I imagine that would keep it wet and keep it from closing properly  - and open her up for infection -if it went on for long.

I'm curious to see if the 'thing' she has is male, female, or the anus.   I'm thinking if it was 'female' she'd be peeing out it.  Could be she'll poop out it and could 'live', but we're going to put her down anyway.  

I'd take her to the vet today but he's 30 min. away and I have to be at work in....36 minutes.  I'm going to feed her again tonight (I can't let her 'suffer' feeling hungry) as long as she's still perky / acting like she's hungry.  If she seems to be in pain, I'm going to have DH put her down tonight.
My vet is anxious to learn what he can about goats, that helps a lot.  He's only been out 3 yrs but is great.

Patch went bald last summer, he said she had staph dermatitis or something (I'd have to look in that thread about her and Penny and I don't have time) and she was on Pen G for a week, then cleared up / got her fur back.  I also treated her w/ selenium, copper, vitamin E, and Zinc in case it was a deficiency sooooo???

Literally hundreds of kids born here, this was our first 'major' birth defect..... it had to happen sooner or later....odds say so.  

Still stinks, though.


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## aggieterpkatie (Dec 6, 2011)

So sorry about that. What a shame.


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## Stacykins (Dec 6, 2011)

Does the vet want to do a necropsy? To see what was really going on with the kid? Sorry that it happened, I hope the other kid is healthy and robust, and the doe doesn't have any more kids with issues.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry. It stinks when it happens. Like you said, when you are in livestock long enough, you see a lot and it is bound to happen. Have to admit that necropsy results would be really cool to hear.


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## terrilhb (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh Roll I am so sorry.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 6, 2011)




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## Roll farms (Dec 6, 2011)

Yeah, the vet's gonna do a necropsy, that's what I meant by "examine it" in my first post, sorry.

Update - still alive / alert / etc. 

Now I'm sitting here wondering if I should sell the sister.

She's normal (looking) and the person I bought Patch from said she'd never had a deformed kid before, just that she aborted last year.  I briefly owned one of Patch's other kids and she was fine.
Saturday's the sire and he obviously makes ok babies, no deformed kids last year.

That leads me to believe it's a fluke.... And I'd be ok to sell her.

Opinions?


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## neener92 (Dec 6, 2011)

I'd keep her! Because she is adorable that is.


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## Queen Mum (Dec 6, 2011)

I wouldn't give up on her mama just yet, or her sister.  It is more likely a random event in the millions of possibilities, I think you would be doing yourself a favor to give the mother another chance.  If she proves to have another bad pregnancy, pass her on to a goat owner who is not looking for premium stock.  I know I would.  BECAUSE up to this point, you have invested quite a bit of time and money, not to mention emotional energy into this doe.  That would be good news for your doe.  And good news for the twin.  

Not to minimize the seriousness of losing livestock and how shocking this is for you, but from what I know of cell physiology, the fact that she has an opening tells me that her cells missed a step while dividing in utero during development.  My guess it that this is not necessarily a genetic linked issue.  And I think, it's a relatively minor defect as defects go.   In humans there would be surgery done to correct the problem.


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## RPC (Dec 6, 2011)

I am sure that there is no reason you should look at the red doe any different just because it had a deformed sister/brother/thing. I am sure she will make a fine doe for someone. i bet it is just one of those things that happens. People have deformed kids and then more normal kids and those kids never have any deformed children. Good luck and I am sure it will all be fine.


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## redtailgal (Dec 6, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> That leads me to believe it's a fluke.... And I'd be ok to sell her.
> 
> Opinions?


Well, you asked for it. I'm gonna show my nerdy side. Sorry.

I know this applies to humans and dogs, I dont see why it would be any different for goat.

Fetal development starts out a female(ish). All fetus's have mullarian (female) ducts and wolfian (male) ducts.  As the hormones are secreted themallarian  ducts will (a)  form into the female sexual organs (including vagina, cervix, fallopian tubes, and uterus) or (b) these ducts will regress allowing for the formation of male sexual organs.
Which way it goes, is determined by the hormones secreted, males would secrete an antimullarian hormone.

This anti mullarian hormone regressed the mullarian ducts, thus preventing the growth of female organs. There would also be a secretion of androgens,that would allow the male ducts to form into male organs.

In some cases of twins where one is male and one is female, the hormones get "confused".  The anti-mullarian hormone is secreted and caused the female organs to regress but the hormones needed to make the male organs form (androgens) is not secreted.  This leaves you with a fully formed and normal female twin but a "male" twin that has no sexual organs, often having only the lower half of what would have been a vagina.  Often, the urinary system my empty into this vagina, as will the bowel on occasion.

It is my opinion that your sexless baby is, in fact, an androgen poor buckling.  This is not genetic, nor does it have a known cause (or it didnt 15 years ago).  Its just "one of those things".

edited: for spelling


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## Ms. Research (Dec 6, 2011)

Sounds like two healthy kids but one just isn't completely formed.   It happens.  Doesn't mean there is anything going to be wrong with the completely formed twin.  

I think you should wait and see how Red grows.  And what happens with Patch on her next kidding.  Also what the Vet says after researching.  Lots of things to find out first before you worry about if she could be sold.  

I think you are jumping way ahead of yourself on this.  It's been a very traumatic day for you with this Paint.  This is a first for you. 

Big Hugs.  

K


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## Queen Mum (Dec 7, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Well, you asked for it. I'm gonna show my nerdy side. Sorry.
> 
> I know this applies to humans and dogs, I dont see why it would be any different for goat.
> 
> ...


That is kind of what I was trying to say, but RedtailGal said it WAY better than me with much more detail.  

My vet, Sarah Jane Owens told me that one of the reasons that goats have such a high rate of androgeny is because the kids are very sensitive to the hormones secreted in utero.  And while in human species it is much more rare to have male and female twins, in goats it is highly hormone dependent as to whether or not one is male and one is female.  

She also said, that it is very possible to have same sex twins where one doeling is much more female than the other, or one buckling is much more male than the other. (I have a pair of bucklings like that.)  One of the twins looks like a buck, has testicles like a buck and yet, is not really a buck.  He's almost girly.  I'm going to wether him.


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## autumnprairie (Dec 7, 2011)

I am probably wrong on this but does either parent have polled genes? It is supposed to be nullified if either parent is born with horns but double polled parents create hermaphadites (spelling?)
could this be what you are seeing?


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## hoosierchick (Dec 7, 2011)

Awww, I'm sorry about the deformed kid. At the vet we had a breeder bring in a kitten that was sort of like this. A Persian, it had no tail and the anus was slack, no muscle tone and it just dribbled pee out of the rear end where a females normal organs would be.   On necropsy, the colon,urinary tract,  reproductive organs  and spinal area were all deformed.  The kitten was normal till the rear third of her body than it was undeveloped.  No reason and all the other kittens in the litter were normal.

I'm sorry your kid wont make it, I know how you treasure each one and do your best for them and the mommas.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Dec 7, 2011)

Agree w/ RTG.  This looks like a perineal raphe defect.  If you check back on the Thelma sheep kidding photos one of her kids was born with one.  He was split open instead of being shifted.  

I think that this is just a random freak occurrence and wouldn't yet blame the doe.   If you are going to sell her because of this and prior to another kidding, then I think that since your brain is considering it a maternal issue that you would need to be clear with buyers that that is the reason for sale.


Edit for a misread.  I thought you were talking about selling Patch.   Agree that selling the sister is a non-issue.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Dec 7, 2011)

I think your are good to sell the sister and not feel guily about it.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 7, 2011)

Congenital defects do happen. It is random and no really good explanation. I would feel fine selling the sister. I would probably keep the mom one more year and see how she does though. Just to be absolutely sure she doesn't have something more going on. I know you aren't the type to pass on problems. Coming from the other person with the abortion, you have no idea how well she was fed or anything. Was this the first kidding with you?

I have a goat right now that is due tomorrow. She has had 2 stillborn births. Never even bagged up. Went early. This year she is bagging up beautifully and she is almost to her due date. I'm hoping for live kids. I know for a fact that this female didn't have the proper nutrition all the way back to in utero. She has been with me about a year and a half and I think nutritionally she is finally there. So I think that may be something to consider for you if the nutritional was in question at all.


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## Roll farms (Dec 7, 2011)

Okee dokee....  I had to replay the message he left me 3 times to get all this written down...bear w/ my spelling / usage, I'm paraphrasing someone w/ more education than I have 

The kid was female, had a uterus and the nub / opening in her belly was the vagina...it just didn't lead anywhere, he said it was full of air and urine, the uterus was full of air.  
The colon was (obviously) full of meconium (newborn poop).  "No outlets" is how he put it.

The pelvis was formed to about the 1/2 way point and just stopped (again that's how he put it).

He's calling it a "Nueral Tube Defect" and said there was no toxicity, viral, or bacterial cause so to 'not be concerned' on that front.  "Happened way back 5 mos. ago during the embryonic phase" - in other words, not something caused by poison, dewormer, environmental factors, etc.

Other than that, he said there are a multitude of causes / contributors for NTD's and not to worry about it, they do "just happen sometimes".  He said that in his opinion, there's very little chance it's genetic or something I need to worry about when selling her sister, or mentioning it to the buyer.

As far as selling the dam....I didn't know I'd said I was gonna....???  
(But the woman I got her from did say to me yesterday that if I decide to, to let her know...she wants her back.)

I have to sell the other kid.  This is my 'business' and, esp. now w/ her sibling gone, I have to recoup the 'loss' of that one and feeding her mom for a year....so she will be sold.
I 'budget' for ea. doe I own to produce 2 kids per year.  Usually the singles are balanced out by triplets, so it works out ok.  

It probably sounds cold to those of you who have goats for pets or are just starting out.  Believe me, I hate the 'cold' part of it.  But I have to pay the bills / feed the rest.

I used to be a lot more prone to making emotional choices over smart ones.

10 years ago I'd have probably paid for the kid to have colonoscopy surgery.....


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## redtailgal (Dec 7, 2011)

It's not cold at all, Rolls.  It's good business sense.

Thanks for the update.


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## SheepGirl (Dec 7, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> It's not cold at all, Rolls.  It's good business sense.
> 
> Thanks for the update.


X2


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## Mamaboid (Dec 7, 2011)

It's not cold, it is what anyone who raises animals has to make every day.....A HARD DECISION.      WE don't like em, we wish we didn't have to make em, but it is part of the job of being mommy to any kind of critter.  Just concentrate on the good, look at all those beautiful healthy babies you got.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 7, 2011)

You can't keep everything and the ones you do have, have to eat. So can't see anything bad in selling the doe kid that is left. Glad the necropsy confirmed that it was congenital.


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## RPC (Dec 7, 2011)

How interesting thank you for the update. Good luck selling that red girl I am sure she will make someone very happy.


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## autumnprairie (Dec 7, 2011)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


X3 thanks for the update


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Dec 7, 2011)

Well, you learn something new everyday.  Thank you very much for sharing.

I have not had goat kids yet, but I know with raising chickens, the weak have to go, because I need the feed and housing for the girls and boys who pay the feed bill.


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## Livinwright Farm (Dec 7, 2011)

Note to staff, please remove this post. thank you.


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## PattySh (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks for the update. Interesting for sure the twinning thing and mixed up hormones. You couldn't have done anything for that kid so educating others makes her short life purposeful. You did good, sleep well, you made the right choice.


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## elevan (Dec 7, 2011)

A sound business call...not a cold decision at all.

Thank you for updating us with what the vet had to say.


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## Ms. Research (Dec 7, 2011)

Thanks for the update.  Very interesting.  

Sometimes when that fertilized egg is splitting, a small glitch happens.   Amazing how life starts and forms.  But sometimes like the Vet says, it happens.  Nothing anyone did.

Seems you got your answers to help make your Business decisions.  Nothing cold about business.  Sounds like you are making very sound decisions for your business.  

K


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## Hillsvale (Dec 8, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Okee dokee....  I had to replay the message he left me 3 times to get all this written down...bear w/ my spelling / usage, I'm paraphrasing someone w/ more education than I have
> 
> The kid was female, had a uterus and the nub / opening in her belly was the vagina...it just didn't lead anywhere, he said it was full of air and urine, the uterus was full of air.
> The colon was (obviously) full of meconium (newborn poop).  "No outlets" is how he put it.
> ...


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## jodief100 (Dec 8, 2011)

This has been very educational.  I thank you for sharing it.  I am sure it was difficult.  

The decsion is nto cold at all.  Just the opposite.  If you expend all your resources on an unprofitable animal, you will not have what you need to care for any of them.


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## aggieterpkatie (Dec 8, 2011)

Thanks for the update, and good to know it was just a "freak" occurance.  And it's not cold to sell the sister. We can't keep/feed them all!


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Dec 8, 2011)

Good to know it was a freak thing.  Yeah I totally read the selling part wrong about which doe you were getting rid of.  But I think you are in the clear either way now.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 8, 2011)

Neural tube defects in humans (spina bifida, primarily) are generally considered to be caused by a maternal deficiency in folic acid.. That's why pregnant women are so strongly encouraged to supplement their folic acid during pregnancy..  Folic acid is a b-vitamin..  Perhaps next time she's bred (if only to make ya feel less worried/more confident) she oughta get weekly shots of b complex or something..?

Glad ya found out what happened, though..  And, no, it's not cold to sell the sib..  It's what I'd do if I were you.


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