# sorta newbie - somewhat confused about CAE



## beckyburkheart (Feb 20, 2012)

Hello all, i've been browsing the internet and this seems like i good group ... so hopefully you can help me out.

i've had goats about three years or so and just last year decided to cull most of the miscellaneous goats and work up to a purebred lamancha herd. (we started with a few purebred lamancha does)

we've done most of that, inc buying a reg buck last year and am currently wading through all the paperwork with the registrations and such.

I've been reading about the CAE and CL testing and status.  I think two of our girls have the CL abscesses.  How bad is that?  Do we need to cull them immed?  If it's already here and in the soil and everywhere, what can be done about it?

I'm trying to figure out about the CAE testing.  The vet quoted about $400 to do the herd, but it looks like i can do it myself much cheaper through biotracking? i see where to buy the kits, but not what the tests costs or any other information.  i'm sure i'm missing some simple link or something.

How big a deal is CAE?  The reading i've been doing suggests it's very widespread.  I respect that people choose not to buy positive or untested animals, but i'm not sure i'm prepared to decimate my herd if i have it here. My herd to date is at least asymptomatic but from what i've been reading it's unlikely that it's clear. Do people deal with normally, or strictly cull?

Thanks in advance, Becky


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 20, 2012)

You can look into the colorado Serum CL vaccine and start vaccinating your new kids.  But I would try not to keep leaving the abscesses break open on your property.


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## DonnaBelle (Feb 20, 2012)

Also, make sure the abcesses are CL before you panic.

CD & T shots also cause abcesses.  I had some goats with those kinds of abcesses and really panicked before I realized what it was.

DonnaBelle


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 20, 2012)

Thanks!  

I'm not prone to panic. but i did order a bottle of vaccine.


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## Queen Mum (Feb 20, 2012)

Often when you give a CD/T shot you will get a big knot right where you gave the shot and it can abscess.  It can also happen when a fly strikes.  And when an animal gets a poke with a sharp object.  SO get the goats tested.  That is the ONLY way to tell if you have CL and CAE in your herd.  

Then you will know and deal with the issue.  Most of the time you will find that you are CL/CAE free, especially if you have been buying registered animals.    And you can sigh a big sigh of relief.  

BIO Tracking is pretty reasonably priced. (aka cheap)


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 20, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> 
> I'm not prone to panic. but i did order a bottle of vaccine.


I was recently considering vaccinating for this but read something about there being a high risk of reaction to this vaccine.  Anyone know what they meant or have any experiences to share?


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 22, 2012)

I know that *any* injection of any type causes damage and has some amount of risk.  it's a matter of weighing risks against the benefits.  I've had horses and other animals a long time and I give I guess what you would call 'minimal' vaccinations.  I analyze what's really needed and give that. - that's what i'm trying to figure out now with my goats.

I did check with bio tracking and will be going ahead with the testing and deal with it from there.

I started with registered stock, then added some others and have been culling most of the others (over about the last couple of years ...)  so i am somewhat worried I could have brought something in.  we were milking and selling the kids locally, but i really like the goats a lot and my goal now is to have a good registered quality herd, so we're trying to take steps in that direction.


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## Queen Mum (Feb 23, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> I know that *any* injection of any type causes damage and has some amount of risk.  it's a matter of weighing risks against the benefits.  I've had horses and other animals a long time and I give I guess what you would call 'minimal' vaccinations.  I analyze what's really needed and give that. - that's what i'm trying to figure out now with my goats.
> 
> I did check with bio tracking and will be going ahead with the testing and deal with it from there.
> 
> I started with registered stock, then added some others and have been culling most of the others (over about the last couple of years ...)  so i am somewhat worried I could have brought something in.  we were milking and selling the kids locally, but i really like the goats a lot and my goal now is to have a good registered quality herd, so we're trying to take steps in that direction.


Good on ya!  Sounds like a solid, well thought out plan.


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## petfarm (Feb 29, 2012)

regarding CL, I've dealt with it for over 5years now, on purpose.  I knew they had it, but wanted to buy them anyway to help cover the costs to the farm that saved them and to selfishly give me a better feeling about keeping them alive, with a place to stay the remainder of their days.  I only did it too because I did not have any other pasture animals at the time.  I called everyone I could who knew CL, even the one's who were considering making a vaccine for it.  There was a vaccine for sheep, but I was warned don't give the sheep vaccine to a goat!! I didn't know they completed a vaccine for goats yet. Glad they did if it's true by now.
 I have a good story to tell regarding the life expectancy of one. It's been a while, a good 5 years ago when I dove into this issue.  Right after I bought them, I took the goats to the vet and had them tested to make sure and see what their number count was.It was $50 a head to test. One was only in the low double digits the other was over 300.  I figured I'd loose them both with in 6 months like they advised and researched. The vet even suggested that I put them down, that they won't live long.  Coming from all sources, including the guys who were considering making the vaccine, I believed it too.  Kept them anyway, just made sure to keep an eye on abscesses/lumps, mostly around the neck, (further back from where they store the food in their mouth) and under the belly area toward the back. The one with low numbers did get a cyst behind the ear, I took her in and had it tested, but the numbers were too low to be CL, so I went and behaved as if it was anyway just incase. I kept it very clean, disinfected, iodine everywhere!, wrapped it when it seeped and bleached the helloutta everything. I also kept her isolated for about a month.  She recovered and never had an issue again.  I did not add more animals for about 2 years, kept them happy and with great room to roam and good food. I didn't move them around, or poke and prod. I didn't want to make them upset at all,  & they were spoiled rotten.  One did die about 1+ years ago, but it wasn't from the CL. the Vet confirmed it too. The other is about 10yrs old and has never developed an abscess, nor has she been sick, and her numbers were the highest., on the verge of full blown CL.  She's a very healthy, energetic goat too.  So I guess my point is, even if they contract CL, depending on how much you love that animal. There is hope, as long as you can keep them from being overcrowded and isolated from non cl exposed goats. I did for a couple years, (I was told they would develop an abscess with in 8months)  they can live a normal life, join back in a small herd and breed, (by accident, but both did well and are fine to this day)
I did clean them throughly when I got them and bleached the stalls any time I thought one was getting sick, sometimes they can develop cysts in their throat and contaminate from coughing.  I never saw any signs though.  If they do develop a cyst/abscess, it's hard/greenish/pussy, thick not like a blood cyst.  Keep it very clean, disinfected & wrapped when seeping, with complete isolation, I was told that as long as they don't re-contaminate themselves, once the cyst heals over, they develop immunity, and will not get cysts or sick anymore.  
Also another thought to consider, if they do register a CL count, don't freak out.  It could be from a vaccine, as they will always show a number below fullblown CL if vaccinated.


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## beckyburkheart (Feb 29, 2012)

thank you for that long detailed reply.  it's good to know that it is possible to deal with it. 

i'm planning to order my test kits by the end of this week and start going through the herd and testing a few at a time.  it will take me a couple of months probably to get all the testing done, and the registrations, and i'll be able to make decisions and start moving forward again once all that is done.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 1, 2012)

I don't have any experience with CL positive goats, and since mine are negative I wouldn't buy or keep (if I already had them) positive animals.  CL is zoonotic, which means it is transmissible to humans.  Since I don't have any positive animals, I'll be sure to test any goats I bring to the place to keep from getting it.  Others have it in their herds and are able to manage it though.  

Regarding CAE, I do have experience with it. I bought my doe before I really knew of CAE testing.  I tested her when I bought her, and she was positive.  I was pretty heart broken about it until I started reading more about it and talking to other goat owners.  It is pretty easy to manage, although not as easy as managing a negative herd.  My doe is asymptomatic, and her dam lived to 13 and was asymptomatic as well.  June (my doe ) was dam raised, which is why she is positive.  I breed her, but make sure to be there when she kids so I can remove the kids as soon as they hit the ground.  She doesn't even get to lick them or nurse or anything.  It's transferred through milk, so I feed cow colostrum from a local dairy, and I bottle feed the kids so they won't get it.  It's a pain to bottle feed, and I'd much rather have dam raised kids, but I don't mind the extra work to keep the kids from getting it.  

CAE is transferred through milk, and there aren't really many studies showing other routes of transmission.  My doe's yearling doe just tested negative.  If June, the positive doe, ends up showing symptoms, I'd obviously quit breeding her and just keep her comfy until it's time to make the decision of euthanasia if she's too uncomfortable.  CAE isn't a zoonotic disease, so it's not transmissible to humans.  

Also, CAE can have some pretty bad affects on some goats, but it's much more widespread than anyone knows, IMO.  I think the reason it's so widespread and so many people are nonchalant about it because it can be easily managed.  It would be pretty easy to keep it from spreading, if people would just test for it and then not let positive animals raise their own babies.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 1, 2012)

That's my concern as i've already culled the does i wasn't happy with, so cutting anyone else is going to be hard at this point.  i'm anxious to get my testing done and see what i'm dealing with. 

at this point, i don't know if i would cull any that are cae positive if it can be managed and get negative doe babies off them.  i don't mind bottle feeding (i have to watch my dad because he'll carry one off tucked in his coat if he doesn't have any little ones of his own!)

the CL i'm much more concerned about since it is transmissible and i have horses here too, but also, if it can be managed with quarantine, ... i could possibly do that. 

is the CL only infectious through the pus when the abscesses burst or does it transmit in other ways too?


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## EggsForIHOP (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm just saying...but me myself and I...I would cull the positive does.  

I've had a few buyers that seriously compared my test results to each goat present before they would leave with a kid last year.  Some people have no clue, some are on the fence, and some WILL NOT buy from a herd that isn't negative with the papers to prove it.

With the lady that seriously stood in the yard and matched tattoos to results when she same to buy a baby part of it is that in my "neck of the woods" there are breeders that teach others to make CAE negative a HUGE priority - I myself make it one if only to make dealing with the locals easier in selling. I respected her need to bring home a kid that would be healthy and disease free - she really NEEDED to know she would be okay, and I just let her do her thing as it hurt no one and then asked where she learned that and I got an honest answer.  So I try to keep it in mind and have results ready along with any paperwork and such when selling goats now.  I have only ONCE EVER recently dared bring in bottle babies from a herd I had no results on and they are in quarantine of sorts away from the other kids until tested.  I'm taking a chance I know and if I get back positive results on them they are processor bound.  Even after months of feeding and caring for them I don't want to deal with it should they come back positive.  It's already a pain to have them apart for now as little goats...I'd just rather skip it when they get bigger.

If you are looking to really build on and expand your herd...it just seems easier not to have to quarantine goats.  I already keep a 1) doe area 2) buck area 3) kid area 4) sick goat area....and I'm still building and changing fencing and redoing things just to my own liking.  but I wouldn't personally want to have to rearrange around "infected" and "not infected" because within those 2 groups you then have more you need and basically double your requirements on housing and fencing - what if a positive doe needs to be quarantined with ANOTHER illness from those does?  Or if a buck is infected, then you will have to have TWO areas for bucks...etc....it just seems to me like more work than I would want to put in if I can avoid it.

I'm just saying, with all the challenges goats already present, why keep one more on your plate?  It might be very hard to basically start over - rebuilding years are a BUMMER and we are going through one ourselves after moving and changing our focus on what we wanted, so I understand.  But better in my eyes to rebuild towards a population that won't need extra special treatment (just the special treatment they probably get anyways  )

just my 2 cents on it...it's a LOT to take in and think about when it can have such a huge affect I know.  Good luck no matter what you decide though in accomplishing your goals and building your herd too 


ETA:  when I speak/type above I mean not just CAE but also CL - I know CAE is harder to spread according to what I have found in researching it...but CL seems like it is more of an issue in that is spread easier and if that is what you are dealing with then it adds it's own challenges as well.  Sorry...just wanted to be clear...


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## sunny (Mar 1, 2012)

CL is zoonic- yes it is, BUT, since the 60's when they started looking at it and testing for it, there have been 12 cases. One from a goat and 11 from sheep. That's it 12 cases in 50 years, the odds are greater that you'll be struck by lightening inside your house.
 And pigeon fever in horses is a different causitive bacteria. There has been One case of pigeon fever in a human.

 Many of these things do get blown way out of preportion by the internet. Should we get rid of the disease yes, but we should also really have the facts of them and not believe the histeria.

 For all of the thousands of goats out there and all the people on all of these forums, who actually knows one person who got CL from their goat. Knows them personally and knows for sure that it was CL from the goat not Pseudo-Tuberculosis from other causes.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 1, 2012)

well.  the one that i think likely has it (she has a tumor like abccess) is an older girl we got at auction.  she was wild and mean and has come completely around for us and have given us lots of kids (three or four each time) and tons of milk and been a great goat.  it's going to be hard to cull her. 

i agree about having 'free' status on a herd.  I won't buy another one without testing.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 1, 2012)

Just for a good giggle, I do not know anyone who has either gotten CL or been kit by lightening  BUT  I did have a chicken get hit by lightening four years ago!!!  Okay-half a second pause to mourn the loss of Dorthy but BWAA  HA HA HA are you kidding me!  Of all the things to take out a chicken.  Killed her and the bush she was hiding under.


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## petfarm (Mar 1, 2012)

If you do have CL, it prob. is in the ground, especially if they have open sores, wet cold damp areas will preserve Cl  for months but I've heard people complain up to a year depending on conditions.  Dry clean sunny environments are harder for the CL to survive.
Sunny is right, I spoke to the people who were researching the disease, and no one had ever personally known of a human getting it, that's from both goats and sheep. They did have a story to tell of a farmer who was shearing his sheep and got CL after cutting himself and the sheep's abscess.  But that was a second hand story too, and he said the guy lived.
I am not partial to culling with CL, unless the animal is stressed, and overcrowded. I know first hand they can be just fine and develop more of an immunity to it if they don't break out with in the first 6 to 8 months. What you may not know is if they do register a CL count, how don't you know it's not from already being vaccinated? You could be killing a healthy goat, because it was not listed that they were vaccinated. If their count is past or at full blown CL, that's when you should consider separating and keeping an eye out for abscesses.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 1, 2012)

petfarm said:
			
		

> If you do have CL, it prob. is in the ground, especially if they have open sores, wet cold damp areas will preserve Cl  for months but I've heard people complain up to a year depending on conditions.  Dry clean sunny environments are harder for the CL to survive.


Well, I'm in texas, so dry and sunny are kinda our banner right now.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 2, 2012)

Well, I belong to another dairy goat forum and there WAS a woman who got CL from her goats. One of the big breeders knew her personally.  Doesn't mean it's common, but I personally don't want to take that chance.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 2, 2012)

I did almost get hit by lightening one time, it struck about 100 feet from where i was!  But I consider that to be a 'good thing' that it could be so close and not hit me!!


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 2, 2012)

ok.  i'm confused again and i hate feeling stupid.

biotracking does preg testing (which i don't need) and cae testing.

for cae testing, it says to check with the lab for the cost, but the labs are sorted by which species they do preg testing for ... ? 

and what about the cl testing?  i thought i could do that with the same blood sample, but i don't see it listed on the form anywhere. 

what am i missing?


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 2, 2012)

Biotracking fee for CAE is either $4 or 6.50, but I don't remember.  I don't think they do CL, or if they do they send it out to a different lab. You may want to look for a lab that does both though, so you dont' have to send 2 different samples.


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## sunny (Mar 2, 2012)

Give them a call, they are really nice.
 You send to Bio-tracking for pregnancy and CAE  and they wil  run it over to WADDL for the other tests. Just call and let them know that that is what you want. I think it's like $10 for that service. Since WADDL out sources it's CL tests to UC Davis, that blood sample will be all over the northwest.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks Sunny. 

I emailed them. 

I found a place that does both, washington state, but they are very much more expensive and have a lot of additional fees.



re: the CL.

my googling finds information that a vaccine is "in development" or at some point approved for sheep but not goats.  The CDT shots i give have CL listed as part of the punch.  Some googling says that the vaccine will cause an animal to test postive. ...others say "not". 

how do i know who to believe. ... i don't see any point in CL testing if the vaccine causes them to test positive since the whole herd is vaccinated.  At this point, all i'd be able to do is get rid of the one goat that I think might have it.


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## redtailgal (Mar 2, 2012)

I dont have much faith in the CL vaccine.  My breeder has used it and still gets the occasional abcess.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 2, 2012)

it's hard to figure out what's the correct current information. I've been trying to check the dates on what i read, but even some reputable sites have old articles up. 

as far as i can sift through it, it is supposed to keep clean goats from getting it and supposedly will lessen outbreaks in infected goats.  i haven't been able to find a definitive source to say if the vaccine will make them test positive or not, and i haven't been able to find a scientific article that says it's tested/approved for goats although it was simply part of the cocktail in the CDT shots I bought.

and i just disbudded my thumb so i'm likely off the internet and on the whiskey for the rest of the evening!!


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## sunny (Mar 2, 2012)

I can tell you that the vaccine manufacturer does not want their product used on goats. It had been tested on them and they were not happy with the resuts.


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## Mamaboid (Mar 2, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> it's hard to figure out what's the correct current information. I've been trying to check the dates on what i read, but even some reputable sites have old articles up.
> 
> as far as i can sift through it, it is supposed to keep clean goats from getting it and supposedly will lessen outbreaks in infected goats.  i haven't been able to find a definitive source to say if the vaccine will make them test positive or not, and i haven't been able to find a scientific article that says it's tested/approved for goats although it was simply part of the cocktail in the CDT shots I bought.
> 
> *and i just disbudded my thumb so i'm likely off the internet and on the whiskey for the rest of the evening!!*


OUCH!!!


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 3, 2012)

The CL vaccine doesn't stop them from getting CL.  I would never vaccinate negative animals, because it will make them test positive.  If you vaccinate positive animals it just makes the abscesses smaller and more manageable.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 3, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> The CL vaccine doesn't stop them from getting CL.  I would never vaccinate negative animals, because it will make them test positive.  If you vaccinate positive animals it just makes the abscesses smaller and more manageable.


well, then there is no point in me testing for it since it comes in the combo shot i've been vaccinating with ...  

which - i would have preferred to know that way back when and test and know who is what and move forward from there, but you just saved me a ton of money and frustration and headache since i know that now. 

I really REALLY appreciate this group. I wish i had found you and joined three years ago.!!!!!!!!!!!


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 3, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure the combo shot has the CL (Caseous Lymphadenitis) vaccine or is it the Colostridium types C/D?


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 3, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> beckyburkheart said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah.  i got the bottle out and went back and checked and checked the website as well.  it's listed in "sheep and goats vaccine" category and comes up under a search for "goats".  it's only in the internal documentation it says "sheep" but nowhere does it have any warning against using it for goats except it mentions that it's common to see a swelling at the injection site on goats.


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## petfarm (Mar 4, 2012)

I thought I mentioned it before but not very well.  As of the last I knew, there is no vaccine for CL goats, only CL sheep. Do not give the Cl vaccine for sheep to goats. Because this can cause a false postitive test and not protect the goat. Most of all the CL vaccines don't specify, and I don't understand that.  The CL for sheep doesn't work well for goats, and will cause them to have a positive (exposed) CL count.  This does not mean that it causes CL, the goat will develop a partial immunity but it wasn't proven to be successful in goats.  CL vaccines will and do cause a positive count of CL when tested.  Again, the last CL vaccine I knew of doesn't help goats, only Sheep.
CL can be controlled in goats, if they get an abscess, don't assume it's CL, mine was exposed to CL (before I bought them) and one ended up with an abscess that was not CL, and she did fine after and never fell ill from it for the remainder of her life. I have never lost a goat from the effects of CL, nor have I had one transfer it to another animal.  But anytime I saw an abscess  I had it tested by a vet and cleared, I still treated it as CL just incase and completely quarantineed them for months. Preventing any seeping, that is what transferrs or re-infects the goat.  The goat doesn't die from Cl exactly, but from a compromised immune system from it's body continually fighting the "infection".  CL is most likely to transfer to another animal by sharing water and feed zones. Cold,damp wet climates are havens for CL, Clean dry sunny locations help keep CL from lingering.
Once a goat with CL get's an abscess, if you can completely control the seeping and keep the goat healthy and disinfected, changing water continuously when the wound is seeping, even with it being wrapped and cleaned out daily with iodine.  Yes, clean out the abscess if it's broken open several times a day flushed with iodine and swabs, then cover to prevent seeping.  The goat will not get an abscess again and be more or less fine there after as long as it's not stressed or overcrowded. (but even then I don't know if it will get sick from it again).  Do not keep animals near one with an abscess under any condition unless a vet tests the abscess first to make sure it's not CL or that the goat could be "exposed" and is weak and getting sick from fighting the Cl.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 4, 2012)

we get abscesses from the prickly pear cactus that we have here, always have seen them in the horses, maybe one or so every couple of years or so. 

we sold the goat that i'm pretty sure probably has CL this afternoon, some people had bought some of our babies and liked her and came back this afternoon for her.  we talked about the lumps and they seemed fine with it and i made sure they know it's probably infectious, etc. So that issue is gone.  moving forward, I'll def keep an eagle eye on the herd and anyone that has a lump or a cough will be off to the vet at the first sign. 

any other suggestions on that since I"ve already given the vaccine that will cause them to test positive if i test.


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## ksacres (Mar 4, 2012)

I would not mess with goats that were positive (or I suspected were positive) for CL.  It is way too easy to spread and can linger in your soil/feeders/buildings/etc.  CAE, on the other hand, can be managed by not letting positive animals nurse their babies.  There is very little evidence of lateral transmission for CAE.

As far as the testing for CL goes, it measures "titer" levels in the blood.  A goat that has never been vaccinated or exposed will have a zero level.  A goat that is vaccinated but not infected will have a midline titer level, and come back as suspect or positive.  A goat that has a full blown case (whether vaccinated or not) will have a high titer level and come back positive.

Another thing about testing-it can take from six months to six years for an exposed goat to develop high enough titer levels to test positive.  This is why most dairy breeders, particularly those that show (since their goats are always in contact with goats from other herds) pull kids immediately and heat treat colostrum and pastuerize milk before feeding it to their babies.  

With testing, a positive is ALWAYS a positive, there are no false positives.  A negative, however, can become a positive as the infection progresses to a measureable level.

So, depending on your intended market, you could keep what you have and market mostly to backyard milkers or the salebarn, or you could make sure you are clean and your market will be a little more open.

Personally, I would NEVER buy a goat without a current test for CAE/CL/Johns.  One year I was feeding raw pooled milk to my kids and I had purchased two does from someone I knew and thought was safe, well, I sent my WHOLE kid crop from that year to the auction after the two does tested positive for CAE and one broke with abscesses.

Never again will I buy without current test results, and never again will I feed pooled raw milk.  Those kids were some of the best I ever bred, and included several very expensive purchases ($400-$800 each!) I had made that year.  I used to be a proponent of raw, but no longer.  It was crushing, and one of the reasons I sold the rest of my stock.  I don't think I will ever fully get over that mistake.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 4, 2012)

> I would not mess with goats that were positive (or I suspected were positive) for CL.  It is way too easy to spread and can linger in your soil/feeders/buildings/etc.  CAE, on the other hand, can be managed by not letting positive animals nurse their babies.  There is very little evidence of lateral transmission for CAE.


well.  i wasn't happy about letting this girl go, but they wanted her and i needed her out of my herd, so i guess it worked out.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 4, 2012)

> So, depending on your intended market, you could keep what you have and market mostly to backyard milkers or the salebarn, or you could make sure you are clean and your market will be a little more open.


i respect not buying without test results, but at this point i'm not going to dump my entire herd on the concept that i could spend $5000 or more to build a better herd and have a chance to sell my babies at $600/pop.

i'll hopefully be getting the testing started later this week and we'll see what we have and make decisions moving forward from there.

i don't mind having a 'middle' market if that's what it comes to.  i've done well here for the few years i've had goats.  i would like to up the ante, but not if it means throwing away every baby i've raised over the last three years.


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## petfarm (Mar 4, 2012)

Your saying that even if they are vaccinated, showing a low count, it's not considered a false positive?  Titers greater than 1:256 have a 95 percent correlation with internal abscesses and a peak titer of 1:64 is associated with vaccination. That was what I meant by false positive. The test does provide some indication as to whether the animal is a vaccine positive or has hidden internal abscesses. But this is only a generic assistance and can be misleading. My highest count on one goat was 25 and that one developed an abscess but it was not CL related, with numbers never going over 50 or 60? the other was in the 240 range at the highest, and never developed anything at all, for over 5years now, and she's had it for at least 7+. 
I guess I need to clarify my comment and say it's not tech. a false positive but rather a positive for traces of CL vaccine not CL. I want people to understand, just because they test for some count, doesn't mean they have full blown CL. That there's more to it.   Most don't even know the difference between Vaccinated, Exposed and full blown CL. (only the point where they are fullblown with abscess are they contagious)   Not all goats that are exposed with CL, get full blow CL (which is when they get abscesses).  Their numbers don't always increase the longer they have it.  Not knowing can get numerous goats culled that were mistakenly vaccinated with sheep vaccine.   But I also feel strongly that too many people ignore the problem and it's out of control at auctions, many slaugher their herds with in 2years, so they could care less about controlling and keeping them safe.  I guess the biggest problem for those who do care, is understanding the reality, and what to do depending on how much one desires to keep certain goats healthy or around for the long haul.
An ugly side is that if you ignore it and don't prevent spread, subjecting the herd to unhealthy conditions,  it can cause meat goats to become very devalued due to all the abscesses that can develop inside the carcus, making part of the meat worthless.  The meat that isn't full of infection is still used, including milk from CL exposed goats.  It's not a good thought that one is drinking or making fudge with CL tainted milk. That's why pasteurization is so important.  CL also lessen's the life expectancy of a goat, due to over working it's immune system.  That's why over population, stress and sloppy conditions make it worse.
There are options if you do care, and it can be controlled. formalin is also used to inject into the abscess to make them hard and not seep, it will then crust over and fall of, making the spread of the disease less likely.
If you farm goats, and think culling every goat that is suspect of having CL will work, you'll likely not end up with any goats and become overwhelmed and give up all together.  Even flies and mosquito's are known to carry CL and infect goats.  There's no way a large goat farm will be able to eradicate CL completely and forever by culling everyone suspect.  It's unrealistic.
I just googled, I agree with everything I read from this article below.  This can help farmers of large herds of CL infected goats that do not have the time or faculity to sterilize and disinfect the location their goats live.  This is also from someone like me who actually owns goats with CL and has the resources to understand CL in goats fully as one can. I was also told I could make my own vaccine, but I never ended up with any cheezy CL abscess to make it from.  I have heard this same story many times over the years, that's why I am sharing it. They also have never had any issues with it being contagious to other species or to humans that they have seen or heard of. (I am not denying it can happen, many people  also get struck by lightening, i know..) I kiss and hug my goats all the time too and my cats, dogs, pig ect. all share the same water..
If you want to know one way to manage CL in herds from someone who's doing what she's preaching.
http://clgoatcare.org/


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 5, 2012)

I really appreciate everyone's input.  I can't believe i am so far behind the ball on this.  i'm very anal about such stuff with my horses, but the goats started out so small and have somewhat taken over and now i'm trying to get it all figured out after the fact.

i'm on the run this morning, but will def come back this afternoon and read the article and continue working on trying to get it sorted out. 

we sold the goat i suspect had it (lumps on her chest) but now i'm wrangling with wondering if or how much infection is here.  i'm still checking on prices for the testing, but i think i'm going to go forward with the cae testing in the meantime. 

it sounds like the cl testing is not going to be straigthforward for me, if i have to interp the titers and compare that against sick/healthy goats. -although we're all pretty healthy out here....


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## ksacres (Mar 5, 2012)

I was certainly not telling you how to run your goats, only offering my personal point of veiw.  It's also important to note that my perspective is based only from the dairy side of goat raising, as most people purchasing goats for milk consumption (including myself) are ridiculously adamant about negative tests.  For most people this is because they intend to drink the milk raw and therefore, absolute health and purity is of the utmost importance.  The other side of that is, most dairy people pull all kids and pool the milk.  If you are going to feed raw (which I wouldn't do), you don't want to infect an entire kid crop with one infected doe's milk.  Meat herds run things very differently.

And, of course, you can do whatever you want with your own animals, and there's the cost involved with replacing all your stock, as well as any emotional attachment you may have to them.  Everyone has to do things that make sense to them and FOR them, and I would never judge someone just because their decisions were different than mine.  For every goat, there are seven different ways to raise them, and they all work.  

As for false positives, the only thing I was saying, is that a goat that has titer levels will never somehow not have titer levels, whereas a negative animal CAN develop titer levels quite easily.  So, if you have a positive animal, you can be sure there has been exposure somehow (either through vaccination or contact with infected animals), but with negative animals, it's entirely possible that they have been exposed but not yet produced an immune reaction.  You are entirely correct, my blanket statement was far too vague to be of value, but hopefully this has clarified my thoughts.  I only rely on tests to tell me about exposure, not actual infection, so for my purposes a positive is a positive.  There is still so much we don't know about goat diseases, since they are "second class" livestock the research has not been done.  There are many cases of positive CAE goats that are asymptomatic their entire lives, and goats with CL that effectively "wall off" the infection and shed it completely.  I just prefer to not mess with it, but my needs and goals are different then someone elses needs and goals.  I have heard of people running 100% positive goats that do perfectly well, and so long as goats are sold with full disclosure, I have zero issues with that.

We always used WADDL for all of our testing, but with CL, it's better (my opinion here) to have a vet culture an actual abscess whenever you have one.  My friend and I sometimes sent in all our samples together to split the accession and shipping fees.  

Learn to draw your own blood and it will save you a bundle, my vet wanted $10 a head plus the office visit to draw blood on my goats, so I learned to do it myself (and I did it for other people too).  It's really not hard at all, and you can get needles and vaccutainers from several different places.


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## ksacres (Mar 5, 2012)

Don't let it overwhelm you.  Do what you can do, and don't worry about the rest.  In this case, your best really IS enough.  The only thing I would say, if you want to have them tested, do it all at the same time, otherwise it will cost you more if you have to send in a second set of samples later.  

You already have the goats, and they are already together, so testing TODAY isn't really going to be different than testing next month or whenever you can afford it.  Unless you are adding new goats, or they are kidding soon, it's all the same.

It can be a lot to process, and there are many opinions/interpretations/viewpoints out there, and everyone's is going to be a little different.  You just have to decide what your priorities are and what you can do and go from there.  

If you can't afford the test, and someone else wants test results, you can offer a sale based on test results, and let them pay for the testing.  You agree to hold the goat pending results, and they put down a deposit or something.  If they come back clear they have X number of days to complete the sale or you keep the deposit, and if it comes back positive you return the deposit and you got a free test.  Quite a few herds operate this way.


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## Ariel72 (Mar 6, 2012)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> Just for a good giggle, I do not know anyone who has either gotten CL or been kit by lightening  BUT  I did have a chicken get hit by lightening four years ago!!!  Okay-half a second pause to mourn the loss of Dorthy but BWAA  HA HA HA are you kidding me!  Of all the things to take out a chicken.  Killed her and the bush she was hiding under.


  No really...I'm sorry for your chicken and the bush it was hidding under.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 6, 2012)

> Don't let it overwhelm you.  Do what you can do, and don't worry about the rest.  In this case, your best really IS enough.  The only thing I would say, if you want to have them tested, do it all at the same time, otherwise it will cost you more if you have to send in a second set of samples later


it does seem overwhelming and there are obviously a lot of potential for emotions to run high when you are talking about something that could potentially decimate a herd.

i'm just trying to take it one step at a time, and this honestly took me by surprise.  maybe the concern is more regional as i've had goats for a few years now and don't know a lot of goat people, but no one has ever said a word to me about testing and i've never had a buyer ask... admittedly, we're selling to the 'low-end' and pet market with our unregistered stock.

so i'm just now realizing how far behind i am.  keeping the budget in line is an issue, and i'm still waiting to get the my registrations sorted out, as that will also have a bearing on who stays and what steps we take. 

i do want to add that this is an awesome, amazing forum and everyone here has been wonderful and i really appreciate everyone's time and comments!!


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## Jenski (Mar 6, 2012)

This has been a good conversation.  Thanks to everyone who has chimed in!  

The information and insight is most appreciated.


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## petfarm (Mar 6, 2012)

I forget a lot until I hear others, and it helps keep me in check.  With regard to raw milk, OMG, I totally agree there, I don't know how anyone can do it with out that mindset. I give huge praise for everyone who does have that in them to be that dedicated.   It helps to tell each other it's not the end of the world when you think or find out your goats could be sick or contagious, it's dreadful and scary. Made me want to give up several times over the years. I did get overwhelmed from all the negative feedback, and upset that my hobby was falling apart fast. But I can tell anyone, as bad as it gets, it will be alright, and not the end of the world. If you're dealing with it, numerous other's are too.  Even with my worst case senario's mine did just fine and all was no big deal, as long as I kept it with in certain conditions.  Enjoying them is much more fun than worrying about all the bad stuff.

I do agree to do all you can on your own.  Save money and time.  But go to a good vet first who will walk you thru the basics. Have them write you out a list of what to give them each year, and keep a good relationship with the vet. Call and ask for advice.  Most vets will allow you to just pick up the needed meds/vaccines/wormer as needed with out dealing with vet visit bills as long as you've been there before.  It will make you feel better and potentially save a goats life, as mine always get sick at night on the weekends.
Follow a couple rules,: keep them with fresh water and a dash of electrolytes (most feed barns/tractor supply) when you can remember, watch the daily grain/sweet mix intake with boys powder it with baking soda half the time, or all the time if they bloat up easy Don't abruptly change their feed, gradually switch when feeding hay/fresh etc. Always worm them, never lax with that, as this is what starts most problems when they get sick. Half mine run like hell when I get the bottle out, but if I can separate them I just put it in a bit of grain that they love, and they will eat it up more panicked about another goat getting it than the not so tasty meds in their food. More often when goats get sick is because they are usually full of worms, and then they get something else that will take them out fast and harder.  Mine love pumpkin and rumor has it that it also keeps worms at bay.
Keep the mean one's separate from the weaker ones, stress from being bullied will kill a goat too.  I always keep a pocket full of treats and give them snacks everytime they see me. This helps me catch them to trim feet, medicate or check their body.  I am to the point now when I get out with them, I have to stand up and hold my buckets high, or several will try to jump on me or dive in front of my feet, knock me over and dig in my pockets and jump on my back.  But it's much better then chasing them all the time. Even if one manages to get out, they come up to the house and look into windows til I come out.  I just wish I could get them to not eat my landscaping.


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