# (In)Breeding Question



## Meaghan (Feb 17, 2015)

Some of you know we purchased four doelings a few weeks ago, and they were both a pair of twins with the same father (Curley) but different mothers (Me Too and another doe).

I spoke to the breeder this week, and she has a buckling available from very good lines. However, he is related to two of our does as essentially a "half uncle". He is out of Skip Too (dam) and 8 Second Ride (sire). Skip Too is also Me Too's dam. 

If he is bred to Emerald or Sapphire, the resulting kids would have Skip Too as a grandmother on the sires side as well as a great grandmother on the dams side. 

The breeder isn't afraid to inbreed and has done it before, however, she isn't recommending we do this pairing. I'm meeting with her on Friday to see the buck kid and to hopefully get a better explanation of why she doesn't think we should pair this buckling with the doe kids we have. 

I was hoping to get a bit of clarity on this. I don't distrust the breeder, but I am open to other input as well. We are in no hurry to purchase a buck kid and ultimately she has many more babies on the way all the way through April, so there won't be a shortage of buck kids. We just want to make the right choice for the does and future babies, and don't want to miss a good buck if it will be a good pairing.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 17, 2015)

You can put in all the info through the ADGA and find out the % of inbreeding and the animals involved.
A really good place to start as you may be ok with 3% but not 10% or 30%.

You might want to see if the breeder wil breed the does for you when they are ready and then look for an unrelated buck... just in case you choose to retain anything from their FF. Believe me when I say it is reallllllly hard to give up your very first kids and you will find every excuse in the world to justify keeping 1 or 2.


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## Meaghan (Feb 17, 2015)

We will definitely be keeping all of the does we get, so... Lol

The breeder won't breed our does, as she'd rather sell her buck kids. The next closest Nubian breeder, two hours south, that we've found reputable won't "rent" a buck either. The only ones we have found in the area that do aren't ADGA registered. 

I tried doing the planning thing through the ADGA website, but the girls just got registered last week and the buckling isn't registered until he's named and sold. Is there a way to do it on their website without the kids being registered yet? Their parents are on there, but I'm new to the software so I'm not sure if I'm just on the wrong page.


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## SheepGirl (Feb 17, 2015)

I have bred dam x son, sire x daughter, maternal half siblings, and twin siblings. I currently have the two ewes out of a twin sibling breeding in my flock (25% COI). Both are nice ewes, one is more productive than the other.

As far as your dilemma, I wouldn't have a problem breeding an uncle to a niece. The COI of the kid would be 6.25%. However, if the breeder advises against it, I wouldn't do it. She likely knows her animals and knows how the genetics mesh with each other.


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## Meaghan (Feb 18, 2015)

So, normally 6.25% wouldn't be bad as a cross?


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2015)

I too have bred daughter x sire with no problems. I have also done it and seen an over abundance of nuisance undesirable traits show up, like ears that fold wrong and entropion. I am sure it was because that genetic trait was present in both dam and sire.

You can get the very very good, but also the very very bad. If the breeders suggests that you don't do it then perhaps there is genetic predisposition lurking that she doesn't want to see amplified. I would certainly ask her why and what that is. Even if you don't by a buck from her what is her hesitation in that breeding.


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## Meaghan (Feb 18, 2015)

@babsbag: That's why we are meeting with her on Friday, because she isn't exactly tech savvy and can be hard to communicate with online.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 18, 2015)

Meaghan said:


> So, normally 6.25% wouldn't be bad as a cross?



That's not particularly closely bred.  Like babsbag and Sheepgirl said, I would want to know why the breeder wouldn't recommend it.  She would know her animals better than anyone.


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 18, 2015)

Before you buy any Nubian buck, be sure your goats are tested for G6S.

If you do decide to do the above breeding, be sure you know every teat defect, eye issues, ear issue, allergy's etc etc.

I saw your girls on the other thread...... SO ADORABLE!


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## Meaghan (Feb 18, 2015)

I hadn't heard of G6S, so thank you for making me aware of it. We unfortunately are not in a position to spend $50 per kid at the moment (newly bought house + motorcycle troubles for the SO + disaster with chicks needing replacing means we are low on cash for the next two or three months). 

I'll ask the breeder if we can test whatever buckling we do decide to buy from her before we decide to buy. I'm not sure she knows of it, she never mentioned it.


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## goatboy1973 (Feb 18, 2015)

I am going to breed my herdsire to all his daughters (both commercial and pure). This is a quick way to get a 3/4 blooded group of commercial kids without buying another herdsire and in a sense, stretching your herdsire's use as far as you can. Once I breed my herdsire to his daughters, I will find another herdsire. My herdsire has been a very fertile, hearty, and fast growing goat so breeding him to his daughters might, might lock in these good traits, but like others have said, there may be some bad genetics surface as well. It can be the roll of the dice when you are dealing with genetics. If it were me, I would consider buying a good herdsire and then when you are finished with his services, either sell him or castrate him and sell him as a pet or a pack goat to people that hike. Nubians are an athletic goat and can be used to carry up to a certain percentage of their body weight.


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## Meaghan (Feb 18, 2015)

As we will likely be bringing in more kids from other lines next year, we won't run out of use from the buck we buy this year. 

I have not seen any reputable (ADGA registered and of good producing lines) full grown bucks go for less than $500-600 around here, either, which as I previously mentioned just isn't affordable at this point when a buck kid is $200-250 and we have our other expenses to consider.


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## Fullhousefarm (Feb 18, 2015)

You're in Archer?

If you're willing to drive 2 hours I can recommend several breeders to you for bucklings. Are you on Facebook?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 18, 2015)

I just _wish_ I could find a buckling for that!


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## Fullhousefarm (Feb 18, 2015)

Just gotta know the right people....


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## Meaghan (Feb 18, 2015)

@Fullhousefarm: I am, but I don't know how to message you on my cell phone, my computer internet is satellite internet so it doesn't like the server. That's why I haven't been as active compared to before I moved out here, and my cell phone internet is limited. If you message me a link to your Facebook I think I can get it from my computer. 

I'm not opposed to going a few hours for a buckling, but the other breeder I considered near Orlando was selling their buck kids from anywhere in the $350-500 range. That, and the breeder we are buying from is quite literally 10 minutes from our house! 

@Southern by choice: You'd probably hate how much (rather, little) we paid for the girls. She sells does for $300 a piece normally, but since we bought 4 we only paid $1000.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 18, 2015)

Meaghan said:


> As we will likely be bringing in more kids from other lines next year, we won't run out of use from the buck we buy this year.
> 
> I have not seen any reputable (ADGA registered and of good producing lines) full grown bucks go for less than $500-600 around here, either, which as I previously mentioned just isn't affordable at this point when a buck kid is $200-250 and we have our other expenses to consider.


Sometimes you have to do, what you have to do.  $5-600 for a good proven buck is cheap.  I've know people who have paid 3 times that for a buck kid.
I sold a 3 month old Nigerian buck for $750 last year from a champion doe, but I'm a long way from having a big farm name or reputation.
They sell for *$Thousands.*
You might just have to get an interim buck to freshen your does, and get your dream buck later.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2015)

@OneFineAcre has a good point; you might think about waiting on that perfect buck. I personally wouldn't put a lot of money into a buck until you find out if your ladies are worthy of that kind of courtship. It will be much easier to sell high quality kids if your does are proven and you can show them, milk them, and sell their kids as family milkers no matter what you breed to while you are working on their champion status.


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## Meaghan (Feb 18, 2015)

@OneFineAcre: That's sort of my point. We cannot afford a full grown proven buck as was suggested. In the mean time, we can afford to take a chance on a buck kid from the local breeder. None of her does have gotten more than one grand championship, but she doesn't show except at a local level. 

We aren't going to get our dream buck at this point, or any full grown bucks even. That's why I said we can't afford even the cheapest full grown proven buck as it's 2-3x the cost of a buck kid. More risk with the kid, of course, but we simply do not have the extra money to spend.

@babsbag: We likely won't be showing them enough to get a champion status anytime soon. I'll be lucky to be able to participate in 2-3 shows this year, if any at all. 

Since Nathan works full time plus 12-16 hours overtime every week, and I am a full time Masters student at the local university as well as working part time, and on top of the goats we have 16 indoor pets, chickens, and a guard llama for the girls coming next week... We are a bit busy! 

Although showing is a dream goal, it would also be somewhat pointless to us to be established here in Florida. We are only here so that I can (hopefully) attend veterinary school after I finish my Masters degree. After that, we will be moving either back to the West Coast (near Portland), or to the Midwest (Indiana/Illinois area). 

Don't get me wrong, I love Florida's weather, but I do miss the winter snow a tiny bit.


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## babsbag (Feb 19, 2015)

Miss the winter snow...talk to some of those poor people who are buried 10' under right now. Have you ever taken care of livestock in the snow? That would make me stop farming for sure. I live in sunny, we don't have any water, California and I love our weather. No midwest life for me, no snow and no humidity.

My mom and sister live in Lebanon OR. It is beautiful in the summer, my goats would love it. I am not too fond of the damp cold days  of winter though. I really am a CA girl through and through.

Be sure and let us know what the breeder says about the breeding. I am really curious. I bred a doe back to her sire this year and her doelings are beautiful. I don't show either, opening a dairy instead


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## Meaghan (Feb 19, 2015)

@babsbag: I have, actually. Although Oregon doesn't typically get much snow west of the Cascades, we got a ton of it the three years I was there in undergrad. Sure you have to have more buildings, but I prefer snow to 100 degrees and 60% humidity for 3 months during the summer. The heat index frequently got over 120 this past summer, which is equally hard on livestock. 

I grew up in California... And I left for a reason!  

No way we could have afforded to buy a house there, especially not with land. Well, unless we went to parts of California so partched for water that the ground is cracking beneath the loose grass. 

Our house here in Florida is just over 2200sqft with the garage included, about 10 years old, and sits on 5 acres of mostly well developed pasture given the soil, and cost us less than $200k. Meanwhile my parents house 75 miles east of the Bay Area on 1/4 acre (granted, it's about 3600sqft) cost almost $850k. Just not something we could ever afford on a nurses+veterinary salary. Not for what we want, anyway. 

I will definitely let you know what she says regarding this particular buckling, even if we probably won't be buying this kid. This isn't her last kid for the year either, she'll likely have plenty more bucklings between now and April.


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## babsbag (Feb 19, 2015)

I am in Redding and I love it here. The summers are HOT, but dry. I don't like the humidity and don't envy you the Florida weather in the summer.

I lived in Fairfield (you probably know where that is) for 23 years and then abandoned ship to come up here where the prices are a little saner. Was so happy to get out of the city. Just wish it would rain. Being on a well with not much rain is frightening, it makes me very aware of leaks and such.

CA weather is the best,  wish I could say that about its politics.


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## Meaghan (Feb 20, 2015)

So, I met with the breeder today and finally understand what she was trying to explain online. 

Basically, if you take a sheet of paper and lay out the family tree side by side away from each other (like this: >buck doe<), and label the sires on top and dams on bottom, her ideal she learned from another breeder is to find common lineage diagonally (paternal side of the doe and maternal side of the buck, or paternal side of the buck and maternal side of the doe) between 5-15% COI so to keep certain traits from certain lines strong on both sides. 

The reason why she was saying she wouldn't herself do this breeding is due to the common lines being on the maternal side of the doe and the buck. But, after looking at the upcoming breedings, the rest don't have any inbreeding COI at all.

Since she just was inundated with pet grade buck kids, and she doesn't want to bottle raise this buck kid (largest of the triplets) and she's going to have more bucks later, she offered to cut us a deal on this buck if we take and raise him ourselves. Since its a low cost, I think we are going to take the chance and see how he does for our does this year. He looks solid despite only being 5 days old. His head confirmation is amazing and he has a set of straight legs and back. 

She may have an older buck that would be good as well, as it seems like a buyer from out of the country has flaked after putting a deposit down. We'll have to wait on that info until March.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 20, 2015)

Meaghan said:


> So, I met with the breeder today and finally understand what she was trying to explain online.
> 
> Basically, if you take a sheet of paper and lay out the family tree side by side away from each other (like this: >buck doe<), and label the sires on top and dams on bottom, her ideal she learned from another breeder is to find common lineage diagonally (paternal side of the doe and maternal side of the buck, or paternal side of the buck and maternal side of the doe) between 5-15% COI so to keep certain traits from certain lines strong on both sides.
> 
> ...



That approach to line breeding is pretty standard now that she explained it.  But, keep in mind even if you follow a specific approach, sometimes you get a kid from a breeding  and say "where did that come from".  And sometimes, when you just "throw something against the wall and see what sticks" (outcross)  with your breeding you sometimes get something special.
Sounds like your breeder friend has been doing this for many years.  My family has only been breeding goats for 6 years now.  The first couple of does we got were pet quality.  When we got our first buck, we did more research and purchased an animal with a more proven back ground, but totally un-related to those does.  The second breeding of one of those does is the best animal we have bred on this farm.
When we purchased a couple more does from another breeder, we looked a lot closer at common lineage and they are about the same percentage COI, but related on both sides.
Got 4 great bucklings last year out of it, will let you know how it turns out if we ever get any does.
I don't think there is any problem with getting this buckling


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## Meaghan (Feb 20, 2015)

It made perfect sense when she explained it in person, I just didn't understand what she meant by diagonally and top to bottom online because I wasn't picturing the lineage in the right direction. I'm used to seeing them vertically (kid on bottom, parents above, grandparents above parents, etc) so the directional terms just didn't click!  

Good to know you think the breeding may turn out well, I figured it was worth the shot. We would only be out $30+registration costs+raising costs. And if he turns out not to be so great, he can always go to be a buck on another farm.  

Here are a few pictures of the buckling taken  two days after birth.


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## luvmypets (Feb 20, 2015)

He's cute!


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 20, 2015)

Meaghan said:


> It made perfect sense when she explained it in person, I just didn't understand what she meant by diagonally and top to bottom online because I wasn't picturing the lineage in the right direction. I'm used to seeing them vertically (kid on bottom, parents above, grandparents above parents, etc) so the directional terms just didn't click!
> 
> Good to know you think the breeding may turn out well, I figured it was worth the shot. We would only be out $30+registration costs+raising costs. And if he turns out not to be so great, he can always go to be a buck on another farm.
> 
> ...



The point is, the breeding might turn out well, it might not.  You could breed him to the same doe and the first couple might be duds and the third awesome.

Are you going to show?  What is your goal?
Even if you are going to show, I love my goats who come in last place just as much as my finished champions. 
They all can't be champions.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 20, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> The point is, the breeding might turn out well, it might not.  You could breed him to the same doe and the first couple might be duds and the third awesome.
> 
> Are you going to show?  What is your goal?
> Even if you are going to show, I love my goats who come in last place just as much as my finished champions.
> They all can't be champions.



So true!


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## Meaghan (Feb 20, 2015)

I definitely would like to show, but it's the time constraints for me, plus transportation. We have an SUV with a bumper hitch, but it only can pull around 5klbs so once you add any trailer it goes down to about 1-2klbs capacity depending on the trailer. That, and we don't own a trailer, so renting them adds up. 

Realistically until we can afford to buy a trailer any shows that are more than a few hours away aren't going to be feasible for us to attend, and we would only be able to attend while the goats are relatively small. 

I definitely know what you mean about the non winners. I love Sapphire to pieces, but she's never going to be a winner because her size just isn't there!  

Our main goal is just good production. All of the does are from good lines that produce a lot of good quality milk, and that's really all that matters at the end of the day.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 20, 2015)

Meaghan said:


> I definitely would like to show, but it's the time constraints for me, plus transportation. We have an SUV with a bumper hitch, but it only can pull around 5klbs so once you add any trailer it goes down to about 1-2klbs capacity depending on the trailer. That, and we don't own a trailer, so renting them adds up.
> 
> Realistically until we can afford to buy a trailer any shows that are more than a few hours away aren't going to be feasible for us to attend, and we would only be able to attend while the goats are relatively small.
> 
> ...



Hey, just take your time.  Enjoy your goats.  Build up slowly.  We have.  Been doing it for 6 years, but we have friends who have been doing it for 30 years. 
Get that buckling that you can afford now.  Breed your girls and see how they look. And see how the kids look.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 20, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> Hey, just take your time.  Enjoy your goats.  Build up slowly.  We have.  Been doing it for 6 years, but we have friends who have been doing it for 30 years.
> Get that buckling that you can afford now.  Breed your girls and see how they look. And see how the kids look.



Plus, he's pretty


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## Meaghan (Feb 21, 2015)

Thank you @OneFineAcre. His color isn't my favorite, but that's the least important aspect of his looks! I love his little face.


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 28, 2015)

He's cute!  Good Luck!


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