# So new and so confused



## madimorg (Oct 17, 2011)

Let me start out by saying that I can use all of the assitance anyone can offer me.   I currently raise chickens and turkeys.  My daughters have decided they would like to have a couple of sheep and goats as their 4H projects this year.  One daughter is going to take two sheep and the other two goats.  My husband and I spent yesterday fixing one of our barn areas to prepare it for pens.  The ground in this section of barn had been worn down and held moisture after so many years of parking grain carts.  We had 20tons of top soil spread and built this up and it looks great now.  Next we plan to top it with crushed limestone and pack it down.  From what I've read in the kids 4H books is that I will have to keep the goats and sheep separated into their own pens... that's not a problem.  So aside from that I am lost.  As far as bedding I'd read that sheep need wood shavings and the goats can have straw... does this sound correct?  We'd like to go ahead and install feeders/waterers, however we are at a loss.  I dont know if feeders are something we can build or what is required for sheep and goats... do they really need anything special?  As far as waterers I'm not sure what most people use.  The barn we are using does not have running water so we will have to haul water to this barn from our well curb in buckets or something of the sort.  If you can show me any photos of what you use for feeders/waterers and some ideas I'd so appreciate it.  Is there anything else we'll need to build into the pens or need to consider?  We are thinking that our sheep and goat raising will only consist of these few animals and only last as long as fair time which is in June... so I do not want to invest a large amount of money into this, however I do want to provide a nice proper environment for the animals.  Thank you in advance for any and all help and photos of what my setup should look like.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 17, 2011)

This is a pen we keep our show whethers in. and an example of a feeder and a block. The block is used to help build the muscle strength in the back legs and loin area. 








Time to excercise them. 






goats exercising themselves. They love to climb. 






Lambs eating: haltered and seperated. Goats are not fed like this, they eat too slow. All show animals are fed twice a day. Very little hay. Goats do better with a pelleted feed, Lambs are okay with a sweet feed. but invest in  a good show feed for each species.






Exercising: Animals should be worked up to a good jog, so until they are panting to help build muscle. We do the same for the goats. You use nylon halters to exercise the goats and sheep. this is different from when you work on setting up and actually showing your animal in the show ring. Lambs are not shown with a halter nor collar. Goats are shown with a collar. 

Lambs need to be sheared. We normally shear them 3 times through out the summer, the last time being the day before the show. Goats should also be clipped. But we only clip them one time a few days before the show.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 17, 2011)

you can do dog food bowels on the ground, but it would be best if you can feed them so atleast their heads are up.   They don't need very much hay. You don't want a market animal developing a big rumen and looking pot-bellied. So the first picture with all the hay in the little feeder is not really accurate for you. That is not a show whether, he is breeding stock.  It gives you an idea on how to get his front end up when he is eating. 

You want to feed consistant, twice a day. and make all feed changes slowly. 

You would be looking at feeding around 3.5% of their body weight in grain a day. So a 100lb lamb would be getting right at 3.5lbs of grain a day. You would go a little above that if you are exercising them really hard or need to put weight on them faster. 
So a 50lb kid would get 1.75lbs a day dividid into 2 feedings. Measure you feed well. weighing them every couple weeks, really helps to know if you are doing things right or if you need to worry about parasites. 

1 lb is right at 3 measuring cups. 

Use containers that you are sure about and can measure the feed consistantly.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 18, 2011)

Good greif!  It isn't rocket science.  It isn't about the type of bedding or the type of feeders, it's about keeping them clean!  And the animals need to be kept happy, well fed, exercised and stimulated.  

A great book to read is Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin.  

My goats eat out of tin buckets stuck on the side of the wall with holes drilled in the sides and snap rings stuck through to hold it in place.  I built my milk stand from plans I got at Fias Co farms web site.   The water trough cost $35 at the feed store.  The hay feeder is made from Cattle panel which costs about $56 at the feed store.  Or you can use 2x4's and make one yourself.  Lots of online plans available.  Straw, dirt, chips, whatever stays dry when it rains is your best bet. 

Goats will sleep on rocks.  They are mountain and desert animals.  They like straw or chips in the winter but they can do without it if they have to. They HATE rain.  Sheep are grassland animals.  They need to eat grass and they need grassy bedding.    

Hooved animals cannot tolerate wet conditions.  It ruins their feet.  So you have to keep their bedding dry and CLEAN!  

If your barn floor is concrete, and it gets cold in the winter, make sure the floor has insulation.  Straw, chips, etcetera.  And make sure you keep the bedding clean!  And did I mention that they need CLEAN, DRY BEDDING!

Make sure you feed them well and make sure they have the right minerals.  It isn't about how many pounds of feed you give them either.  You will get a feel for that eventually.  This website and others like it will tell you plenty about the food, but you can see by the condition of your animals if you are feeding them enough.  Look at their hair and wool and their eyes and teeth and their demeanor.  Pay attention to the animal.    

Don't let your animals get wormy.  They get worms from eating food that has worms.  They will avoid food with worms.  But if they don't have food they normally would eat, they will eat food with worms in it.  

Goats don't like grass.  They like fodder and forage, ie anything above waist height.  BUT if the only food available is grass (which is where the worms are) they will eat grass and they will have more worms.  Keep them wormed.  

Sheep don't like a lot of the food that Goats eat.  They like grass.  If there is no grass, they will eat forage and fodder.  They will get worms from forage and fodder.  Keep them wormed.  

Goats and sheep can be kept together if they are reared together, but not if they are raised separately.  

If you graze sheep and goats in the same field, goats will eat around the outside where the bushes are and sheep will eat in the middle where the grass is.  It will drive the LGD's nuts.  

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

Okay, a few pointers, don't get lured in by Sheep & Goat feed (will not contain any copper. Copper is toxic for sheep, but essential for goats) or all stock feeds, which will not have enough copper for the goats. Definitely get seperate sheep feed and goat feed. Same goes for minerals. This is the main reason for keeping them in seperate pens. The other reason is cross breeding. While it is rare, it CAN happen.

Purina and Dumor(which is a blank name purina mills brand) have show goat feeds. TSC carries the Dumor label: Dumor Goat Grower for show goats, and if you want to buy direct from Purina: http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODUCTS/PRODUCTS/ShowGoat/default.aspx

Disbudding is required for 4-H, so make sure you get disbudded kids/lambs. 

I find wood shavings works best with goats, it absorbs a LOT more pee than straw, and it doesn't degrade anywhere near as fast. Plus, if you have a wood mill near you, they might let you just take the shavings to get it out of their way.  Just don't do this for your chickens, because it will likely have cedar in there, and that is harmful to chickens(along with other sensitive nostrilled animals, such as hampsters).

In regards to what plants are safe or toxic for these respective critters, most of what is toxic to sheep is fine for goats. Milkweed for example will not harm a goat, but can be lethal for sheep. Make sure to google the list of edible & toxic plants for both the sheep and the goats, that way you can remove the toxic plants from the sheep's area.
What you use for feeders doesn't really matter, it comes down to what is the best(functionality) for you & your family. 

For the most part, just relax and enjoy the potentially brief journey in raising sheep and goats.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 18, 2011)

disbudding is not reguired at our fair, it is regional.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> disbudding is not reguired at our fair, it is regional.


Oh! Good to know!  When I asked around, I was told a blanket statement that if you want goats in 4-H then they had to be disbudded. Now I know, and will let others know. Thanks *20kidsonhill* !


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## sawfish99 (Oct 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> disbudding is not reguired at our fair, it is regional.


Everything I have ever read is the 4H requires disbudding.  That does not neccessarily mean every fair requires disbudding.


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## sawfish99 (Oct 18, 2011)

Our goat shed does not have running water.  Instead, I got a bunch of free 55gal drums.  Local car washes get soaps in the blue barrels and will probably give them away.  I cleaned them out, and installed a brass spigot near the bottom.  I keep 1 bung lightly screwed in to open and fill the barrel.  I removed the second bung and zip tied a piece of screen over the opening to allow venting.  Now I have 110 gal of water storage on a small stand outside the shed.  

I took another barrel and cut it in half.  The bottom is about a 30 gal water trough. The top is used to hold hay for the goats.

Our local grocery store gets icing for cakes in 2 and 5 gal buckets and they throw them away.  2 gal buckets work very well for feeding goats.  5 gal buckets are also good for watering animals in general.


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## Ms. Research (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks 20kidsonhill for posting your pics on your set up.  Really nice I have to say.  Definitely gives a newbie lots of good ideas.  

Also beautiful sheep and goats.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 19, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
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It may depend on if you are talking about dairy or meat.  I am sure most fairs or 4H programs would require a dairy breed to be dehorned. We don't have any dairy shows for goats at our 4H.  But I have been to several county fairs in our state and none of the boer goats are dehorned. THe more west you go in the USA the more likely you are to have to disbud your meat goat project.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 19, 2011)

You really don't need anything real fancy. It is important that your space for your animals are safe(can't get their heads stuck) and can keep them contained.  Feed containers can be just about anything as long as your aren't just throwing the feed on the ground.  And water containers can be a small pail or a black rubber pan.  Just so they can safely reach into it to drink and you can easily manage to clean it every day and it holds enough water in between feedings.


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## madimorg (Oct 20, 2011)

Wow...thank you so much everyone!!  You have all been a huge help and I actually feel less overwhelmed.  I think I can handle this   I love the photos and tons of advice.  I'll be heading to the local TSC and getting set up.  I should've specified... for the girls 4H they'll be taking meat animals and not dairy.  If you all dont mind I may be in touch with you all as I progress and have things come up.  Thanks again and wish me luck


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## Ms. Research (Oct 20, 2011)

Wishing you luck.    And good luck with your girls in 4H.   Let us know how they do.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 20, 2011)

sawfish99 said:
			
		

> Our goat shed does not have running water.  Instead, I got a bunch of free 55gal drums.  Local car washes get soaps in the blue barrels and will probably give them away.  I cleaned them out, and installed a brass spigot near the bottom.  I keep 1 bung lightly screwed in to open and fill the barrel.  I removed the second bung and zip tied a piece of screen over the opening to allow venting.  Now I have 110 gal of water storage on a small stand outside the shed.
> 
> I took another barrel and cut it in half.  The bottom is about a 30 gal water trough. The top is used to hold hay for the goats.
> 
> Our local grocery store gets icing for cakes in 2 and 5 gal buckets and they throw them away.  2 gal buckets work very well for feeding goats.  5 gal buckets are also good for watering animals in general.


Those 2 and 5 gallon buckets come in handy, we have a good source for them as well. We get a short 5 gallon bucket that works great for watering from my dad from where we works.   

We use the 2 gallon buckets for measuring out feed. OUrs may be 2 1/2 gallons,but it holds 11lbs of feed, so it works well when feeding a larger group.


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## daisychick (Oct 20, 2011)

Very helpful info on here.  My boys have decided to take boer wethers this year for the first time in 4H.  I have had goats my whole life, but there is for sure a difference in raising the market ones for 4H.  I am certain I will have 1000 questions when our babies get here.


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## autumnprairie (Oct 21, 2011)

wanted to share ideas for hay and feed trough. still working on one for free choice minerals and free baking soda  and my scoop is a coffee can


my hay rack I made.








my hay rack it was free, made from a tomatoe cage and a bucket to keep the hay from sitting on the ground, they still waste some but they can't climb in or on it that was my main goal






my hubby made them their feeders from 4 inch pvc pipe cut in half with a wood stand (untreated wood).








I can take close ups if you need


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## that's*satyrical (Oct 21, 2011)

We made our hay racks from left over wire fencing and a wire twister and we attached them to the fence. Got plastic tubs 2 for $15 at TSC for water. We had to dig them in a little for the nigies cuz they're a little on the tall side for them but they work well. Feed buckets they each have individual fortiflex buckets they were only about $6 each but they also sell the 4 pack for a little cheaper at the TSC. Rubbermaids at walmart are like $5 right now, make nice inexpensive feed holders.


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## elevan (Oct 21, 2011)

Lots of great info given already.

Here's a 4-H Discussion Thread for you:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=10285


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