# Here we go again, she's screaming...



## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I have been having trouble with this one goat since her first winter.

I just had her to the vet right before Christmas, he said it was pneumonia, gave us tons of shots to give her, wrote down nothing, I have no idea what I was giving her or what shots the vet gave her when he examined her.  I waited for the bill to come, all it had was balance due, nothing about medications administered or what was sent home with me to administer to her myself.

She's been great since then, perkier than ever.  Now today, she's outside bawling like she's dying and panting.  Her temperature is really, really low like 99 degrees.  Its not even cold outside.  I can't bring her in to warm her up because its warmer outside than it is inside!

She lies down from time to time and rolls on one side occassionally.  She'll jump back up and walk some more but just keeps screaming like she's in pain!

The vets office is closed.  I can't get a hold of anyone, not even to find out what we treated her with last time she was in to see the vet.  I'm not sure if this is an emergency or not since this has happened so many times before and she usually just snaps out of it?

She's screaming right now, and I'm at my wits end as to what to do with her this time?


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I put in an emergency call to the vet and I'm waiting to hear back.

She's still bawling, her temp is 97.7 and she's panting and her heart is racing about 175 bpm.

I'm trying to warm her up in front of a space heater.  Usually that works and she snaps out of it, but I don't understand what this is or why it keeps happening again and again?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

I wish I had some advice to give you.  I hope your vet calls soon.


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## helmstead (Mar 5, 2011)

the low temp and high heart rate, along with thrashing pain...say abdominal pain/bloat/etc.  This sounds like an emergency to me.


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## terrilhb (Mar 5, 2011)

I don't know the answer but prayers being sent.  Hope all works out.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

give her Baking soda!!  it won't hurt her, and it might solve her problem(if it's bloat)


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I talked to the vet and we've eliminated all other possibilities.  He thinks its a heart defect.

She came from a real ding-bat breeder and I really just rescued her because I felt sorry for the poor little thing.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if this woman is breeding goats with congenital defects.

I don't know what else to do because she's not "snapping out of it" like she has in the past.  The vet said there is not much he can really do for her other than suggest an ultrasound of her heart.

I think she may have to be put down, but the vets office is closed this weekend.  The vet suggested that I wait and see how she manages the weekend before we decide what to do, but she really seems miserable right now.

The bawling is a panic type of reaction since her heart is messed up and she's breathing so hard.  She's not really in pain at all just terrified and she just won't stop screaming.  Its horrible.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

the temperature drop would say something else to me... not an infection(she would have a fever instead of chilling)... possibly a secondary illness brought on by the pnumonia she had previously?


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## helmstead (Mar 5, 2011)

GADS how terrible.  I'm so sorry!  I hope she settles down and you're not forced to do a 'farm' euth...


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

The vet today said that she probably never had pneumonia in the first place.  The heart defect probably caused some temporary fluid in her lungs making it sound like she had pneumonia.

Since she's had these episodes in the past and they pass on their own without medication, seems to indicate a defect.

The last time I had her to the vet, the behavior had already surpassed and she was back to normal.  No vet has witnessed this behavior since she snaps out of it relatively quickly.

The vet said even if we did an ultrasound of her heart there wouldn't be much that could be done other than prescribe lasix to keep the fluid from accumulating in her lungs.

I actually think she is snapping out of it again.  She seems to be coming around or else she's dying.  Her heart rate and breathing are slowing down and she seems more calm.

If this does pass, how much longer do I continue to do this with her?  Do I keep her until this condition kills her or do I have her put down because she's got a defect that there is no cure for?


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

After reading more on pneumonia, I'm sure that she never had it in the first place.

She's crying again.

Anything I can give her to alleviate her anxiety, calm her a bit?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> If this does pass, how much longer do I continue to do this with her?  Do I keep her until this condition kills her or do I have her put down because she's got a defect that there is no cure for?


Im so sorry she has this condition.    But I really dont think anyone can answer that question but you.    Im sorry


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> After reading more on pneumonia, I'm sure that she never had it in the first place.
> 
> She's crying again.
> 
> Anything I can give her to alleviate her anxiety, calm her a bit?


Does she calm a bit when you with her???  If so...I would spend sometime out there with her.   I dont know anything medications to calm a goat with except for mild sedation drugs a vet would have.   Give the vet a call back.  Maybe he can give you something??  So she can get thru this.


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I gave her a dose of banamine in case she is in any pain.  It seems to have calmed her down a bit, she's not screaming like before.  I have her wrapped in a blanket and she's not panting as hard, but her heart is still racing but feeling weaker.

I think she may be dying.  Her eyes roll back in her head from time to time but then she'll come around and appear as if she's completely alert!  I don't know what is going on?


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 5, 2011)

I am so sorry.  How awful for her and you to have to go through this.  I agree, if it soothes her at all to have you with her I'd spend as much time with as your able to. 

I hope she snaps out of it again.


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

She's crying again.  I'm going to go sit with her.  I don't think she's going to make it, but you never know with this one.  I wish I had a sedative for her.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> She's crying again.  I'm going to go sit with her.  I don't think she's going to make it, but you never know with this one.  I wish I had a sedative for her.


I wish you did too    Im glad your going to sit with her thru this...I am soooo sorry    Poor girl.....


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I just talked to the vet again.  He's out on farm calls right now and won't be back at the clinic for about 3-4 hours.  I'm going to meet him at the clinic this evening and if she's not any better, he's going to put her out of her misery.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

Im sorry...thats never ever an easy call...awwww  

Only you know whats best for her...I hope she pulls thru for you!  

If not...I think your making the right decision.  I would probally do the same thing...its hard and I am very sorry


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I've been in panic mode up until this instant.  Its starting to set in now.  I'm upset.  She's my favorite little goat and I guess I've always known that she wasn't quite right.  There has always been something a little off with her ever since birth.  She's an adult pygmy and only weighs about 25 lbs.  She's so tiny, and the prettiest face of all of my goats.

I got her from an idiot breeder and always considered her more of a "rescue" since her previous owner was clueless about goat care and breeding practices.  I'm not surprised if this little girl has a congenital defect.  At least she got almost two good years of life and wasn't forced to have babies at her small size.  Her previous owner planned to use this little one for breeding!

I'm really upset.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

Im thankful you got her away from them...Im so sorry your hurting...


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## Roll farms (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry.


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## elevan (Mar 5, 2011)

I am sorry that you have to go through this


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

Okay, does banamine cause drowsiness?  I gave her a slightly larger dose than she would need (because I figure she's dying anyway) and now she's calm and sleepy.

She's very peaceful now, no longer panting but her heart rate is still about 175 bpm.

Now that she's no longer screaming I figure she'll pass on peacefully or she'll snap out of it when the drugs wear off or she'll be worse when the drugs wear off?

I'm debating if I should take her to the vet on a saturday night (and pay twice as much) or if I should go back to plan A and see how she does over the weekend?

Now that I am able to manage her comfort level we're not really in a dire emergency anymore.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

Ive never seen it work like that? But who knows when there is a heart condition involved???  

Hang in there.  Its so hard when it comes to this point.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry you are going through this. She is so lucky to have you. She has known love and care. You have done everything possible for her.

Banamine does help calm animals. It could be that she isn't in pain and therefore feeling sleepy. I really hope things work out for you. She sounds like one special goat.


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

I just took her temp.  Its come up a bit but still low, 98.3.  Her heart rate is still super fast, her respirations are more normal and she's not panting anymore.

I gave her some warm water with molasses a few hours ago, so she's hydrated.  She's wrapped in a blanket and she's in a heated room.

I still have to wait for the vet to call back since only the answering service is in on the weekend.  I don't think I'll drag her to the vet's office on a weekend evening since she's not in any visible discomfort at this time.

If she makes it the weekend, I'll schedule an appointment next week and we'll see what the vet suggests at that time.  I was ready to give up, but now that she's peacful, I'm hanging on to hope.  I don't want to lose her, she is such a special girl.

Thanks everyone for all of your support.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)




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## terrilhb (Mar 5, 2011)




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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks for all of your support.  The prayers must be working.  She's on her feet eating and drinking and pretty much her old self besides a little lethargy that I can only assume is from the banamine and/or sheer exhaustion.

I put her sweater on her in case temps drop tonight, but its pretty warm here, the frogs are chirping tonight.  She's in a horse stall with fresh thick straw bedding, water, a bowl of sweet feed and a flake of horse hay.  She's gobbling down both her hay and grain.  I'd be willing to bet that she'll be back to her old self by morning.

How many more times is she going to do this to me?  

Her episodes have ranged from lasting only a matter of seconds (where I thought she was just choking, to a few minutes, to an hour or so and today was the worst... taking all day to come around and quite a bit of drama in the meantime.

She's no longer suffering and I can't put down an animal that isn't suffering.  I don't know how I'll be able to guage when the time has come to let her go?  I guess I'll only know that when we get there.  But for now, my little girl is going to be okay!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 5, 2011)

I am so sorry you are going through this!  

If she is still there with you, has her temp come up or not?  Is she still eating?  Is her stomach sounding sloshy?  Is it firm and larger than normal?  Is the left side (top part of the stomach) larger than the right?  Does she have a blank look to her eyes?  When she is throwing herself on the ground is it normally on her left side?

Is there any chance she got into another type of animal feed or the goat feed?

Please understand I am not a goat expert.  In fact, as of late, I've spent a LOT of time googling and begging for answers from the wonderful people on this form.  We just recently got back into goats after having been without them for a number of years.  We are absolutely LOVING having them again but I swear they will be the death of us yet!

If I were in your shoes right now, I'd be looking for any sign of bloat or enterotoxemia.  However, if she is still eating regularly, probably not the problem.

The one goat we had with a heart issue would have heart palpatations and the temp would dive and then go right back up to normal suddenly.  However, it did not just stay low.  The temp would dive when the heart was racing and then come back up as she calmed down.  

I know it sucks going through this with her, but she is SOOO lucky to have you!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 5, 2011)

OOps!  Nevermind!  I must have been typing my reply when you were posting yours.

So glad she is doing better!


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## dianneS (Mar 5, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> The one goat we had with a heart issue would have heart palpatations and the temp would dive and then go right back up to normal suddenly.  However, it did not just stay low.  The temp would dive when the heart was racing and then come back up as she calmed down.
> 
> I know it sucks going through this with her, but she is SOOO lucky to have you!


You know, when she had her first few episodes, they only lasted a matter of seconds, then increased to minutes, then an hour or so and today was the worst.

She really doesn't seem to have any digestive distress.  So far, the heart condition is the only diagnosis that really makes any sense.  It just seems as if she's getting progressively worse each time this happens to her.

What did you do for your goat with the heart condition?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 5, 2011)

An older gentleman who had had goats for years told us to give her Benadryl when she was having the episodes.  Problem was she would have choked if we had.  

We kept her until she died of old age (12 yrs old).  Vet had told us she wouldn't live to see 6.  HA!  She was too ornery to die.  We did not breed her for fear it would kill her and so she ran the yard with our yellow lab.  He had no clue he wasn't a goat and she was clueless that normal goats don't sleep in a dog house with a dog.

When she would have what we called one of her "fits", we would just sit with her, taking turns and calm her down.  Sometimes we would have a series of them but typically they would be few and far between.  We learned they had a lot to do with what she had been up to that day.

Is your girl's temp back to normal now?


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## dianneS (Mar 6, 2011)

She's 100% back to normal now.

I found her this morning with her sweater off and she had squirmed into an adjoining horse stall and was exploring.  She had eaten quite a bit of hay during the night and just enough sweet feed.  She had taken several nice poops.  One poop was clumpy, but I think that's probably from her lying down and not pooping at all for several hours.

She's back in population this morning muching hay with the rest of the goats.  She seems perfectly fine.  I guess we'll just treat the situation the same way each time and eventually when she no longer comes out of it, we'll have to put her down.  If I find her dead some day, at least I'll know what did it.  I have time to prepare for the inevitable, so that's comforting to know it won't be a shock when she goes.

You know, benadryl does make sense.  I may try that next time.  I think I could get benadryl into my girl without her choking, or I could crush it up and mix it with something and syringe feed it to her.

NSAIDS like banamine can cause fluid retention (my husband is a PharmD) and we don't want that!  Benadryl is a calmative too.  

I'm glad we didn't run off to the vet to have her put down, but that day will probably come eventually, but for the meantime, we'll manage the situation to the best of our abilities.

Thanks everyone for the support!

P.S.  She's back to chasing cats and head-butting them.  That's her job "Cat patrol".  The cats are the only thing smaller than her so that's who she picks on.  She keeps the goat pasture totally cat-free!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 6, 2011)

Happy to hear shes up and about!!  Im glad for you!! Love good news!!!


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## Roll farms (Mar 6, 2011)




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## elevan (Mar 6, 2011)

I mentioned in your previous post that her "fits" sound like seizures and the fact that you say the time they last is escalating sounds even more like a classic animal seizure.  Her "reaction" to the calcium drench several hours later also sounds like a seizure. I know this "diagnosis" was discounted in your previous post, but this post still has me thinking that is what it is...take it or leave it.  I'm not sure if Phenobarbital is safe for goats...but that is what I'd consider.  But if it is seizures then she needs to be on a regular preventative plan.

*****************************************************

And if you decide to try the Benadryl (for heart) then I'd recommend a children's liquid formula rather than pills.

I am glad that she is doing better.


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## dianneS (Mar 6, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Her "reaction" to the calcium drench several hours later also sounds like a seizure. *****************************************************
> 
> And if you decide to try the Benadryl (for heart) then I'd recommend a children's liquid formula rather than pills.
> 
> I am glad that she is doing better.


I never gave her a calcium drench?

I'm glad to hear benadryl comes in liquid formula, I will keep that on hand.

A seizure would not explain the presence of fluid in her lungs though, would it?  Does a rapid heart rate, respirations and drop in body temperature come with seizures?  I'm just wondering because I really don't know?

The vet said that the presence of fluid on her lungs that was misdiagnosed as pneumonia is eveidence of a heart problem.  The fact that the problem clears on its own without medication is what has him thinking she's got a defect of some sort that causes it to come and go.

Usually when she's in this state she can walk and stand and her eyes are clear and focused, she just screams and bawls and pants with a rapid heart rate and low body temp.  Only once in a great while when she gets really "bad" does she lay down.  She seems panicked and scared rather than in pain.

Another thing that crossed my mind is that she never has these episodes in the spring or summer only fall and winter when the grasses are dead.  We've eliminated feed issues, she gets super good quality hay (too good for goats!).   I always thought it was triggered by the cold weather since her body temp would get so low and warming her by the fire always seemed to get her to snap out of it.  But yesterday was so warm that this theory has been proven wrong.  Now I'm wondering if she's eating something like dandilion (a natural diuretic) during the spring and summer that is helping to keep the fluid from accumulating?  She's a real weed eater and very specific about the weeds she chooses.  Maybe she instinctively knows which weeds she needs?


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## elevan (Mar 6, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First...sorry about the calcium drench...my mistake on confusing a couple of posts  

Now, the fluid in the lungs could be caused by a seizure if she aspirated during one (saliva would be enough).  Heart rate and respirations could be explained with a seizure disorder as well.  I don't know about the temp as I've never taken the temp of an animal having a seizure.  Fluid on the lungs can be evidence of any number of problems not just the heart.  Some animals can get fluid on their lungs with cancer...so just because it's evidenced in heart disease or disorder doesn't mean that it absolutely is...I just trying to give you another route to look into.

Seizures don't always take the typical fall over and shake route.  I had a dog that did just as your goat is doing...acting freaked out and scared.  I've also had one that does the typical fall over and shake.  I have a human cousin who stares into space and makes a funny noise.  And I've had a cat who just screamed.  So as you can see seizures take many forms.

They also usually don't have a "regular" pattern.  Sometimes environmental or food can bring them on.  Preservatives in food were a trigger for one of my dogs.  Weather was a trigger for the one who acted freaked out...colder weather usually.

If she were my goat and given my experience with seizures I would see if the vet would prescribe Phenobarbital 64.8 mg and give 2x a day (12 hours apart).  Granted I've never checked to see if it's safe for goats, so you'll probably want to do some research there.  Phenobarbital also comes in liquid form and can be administered during an episode...you could try that and if it brings her "out" immediately then you would know for sure...

If it's a seizure disorder, it should be treatable.  Unless they go into a prolonged seizure and cannot be brought out...

I hope this helped and didn't confuse.


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## dianneS (Mar 6, 2011)

That all makes sense.  I'll see what the vet says.

I used to have a dog that had seizures.  He did the typical fall down, go stiff, shake and sometimes pee on himself.  There was no treatment for his problem and there was no pattern to the episodes either.

I'm just glad that we've eliminated all contagious illnesses at this point, that's a relief.  I wouldn't want this condition spreading to any of the other animals.  I can manage a physical problem, whatever it might be.


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## elevan (Mar 6, 2011)

If you decide to look into seizures and ask for Phenobarbital then have your vet call in the script to a (human) pharmacy instead of getting from the vet's office - you'll save yourself 50% in cost I guarantee it!

Good luck with your girl!


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## dianneS (Mar 6, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> If you decide to look into seizures and ask for Phenobarbital then have your vet call in the script to a (human) pharmacy instead of getting from the vet's office - you'll save yourself 50% in cost I guarantee it!
> 
> Good luck with your girl!


I'll do that!  I have him call it in to my husband.  He's a pharmacist!

I just made another trip to the barn to check on her.  Its raining and she's inside with the rest, just chewing her cud!  She's next to her favorite LGD.  He's flat on his back with all four legs spread.  I wish I would have had a camera for that one!


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## Roll farms (Mar 6, 2011)

J'ever notice you *never* have the camera when the animals are being cutest??

We had a dog who had seizures the last 8 yrs he was alive, the phenobarb did wonders for him...greatly reduced the frequency and severity.


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## hermityfarmer-women (Mar 6, 2011)

I don't have any experience with the goat aspect of this but we did have a dog that did have a similar problem.  Her episodes progressively got worse over several years and then she never did come out of one and we had to have her put down.  It was terribly sad, it was like the lights were on but nobody was home at the end.  One thing that everyone needs to remember is that animals don't anticipate death and worry over it like we do, but they do know suffering. So even though its and excruciatingly difficult decision if you think she is suffering during the episodes, it might be her time.  I hope that didn't come out as being insensitive, I have just known many people who held onto suffering animals because they themselves couldn't handle the death, and I don't think thats fair.  But until her episodes become extreme I think you can enjoy some great time with her.  And think about the life you gave her, she is happy and rescued!


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## dianneS (Mar 7, 2011)

For the most part she's fine 95% of the time.  She hasn't had one of these episodes since before Christmas and never has them at all during spring and summer.

I'm going to watch her this summer and see which weeds she prefers to eat and research what medicinal properties they might have.  Perhaps she's self medicating during the summer?

There is one type of weed that occassionally turns up in a bale of hay or two and she seeks out that particular weed.  She's the only goat that does that.  I can't figure out what kind of weed it is though because its dried?


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## Roll farms (Mar 7, 2011)

An Ag extension person might be able to help you sort that out or point you toward someone who can.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> For the most part she's fine 95% of the time.  She hasn't had one of these episodes since before Christmas and never has them at all during spring and summer.
> 
> I'm going to watch her this summer and see which weeds she prefers to eat and research what medicinal properties they might have.  Perhaps she's self medicating during the summer?
> 
> There is one type of weed that occassionally turns up in a bale of hay or two and she seeks out that particular weed.  She's the only goat that does that.  I can't figure out what kind of weed it is though because its dried?


my girls will occassionally eat mullein(aka: Aaron's rod). I am not sure what they are attempting to fix by eating it, but every once in a while they go nuts for it.


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## hermityfarmer-women (Mar 7, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> For the most part she's fine 95% of the time.  She hasn't had one of these episodes since before Christmas and never has them at all during spring and summer.
> 
> I'm going to watch her this summer and see which weeds she prefers to eat and research what medicinal properties they might have.  Perhaps she's self medicating during the summer?
> 
> There is one type of weed that occassionally turns up in a bale of hay or two and she seeks out that particular weed.  She's the only goat that does that.  I can't figure out what kind of weed it is though because its dried?


That would be a good thought, maybe a nutrient that she gets more in the summer.  I hope you are able to figure it all out. I wonder if an allergy could make it worse too.  We had a cat that had seizures when she had catnip. Took a while to figure out because you would assume all cats can have catnip.


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## MsPony (Mar 7, 2011)

Animals self medicate all the time. I purposely add in certain weeds/plants to pasture mixes so if needed, they can medicate. I'd carefully look at what she's eating, plant it all over and also dry some for winter. If its a native plant then you can go foraging I'm sure. I used a dry flower/weed herbal mix in the winter for my horse since everythings dead.

Glad she's better!!


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## PattySh (Mar 7, 2011)

Not sure where you live or if she's outside  but could she be browsing on something she shouldn't because other plants have lost their leaves. Just a thought.


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