# adolescent with diarrhea after grain overload, what to do?



## patandchickens (May 12, 2010)

Mods, hope this is ok, if not sorry...

This is actually a sheep problem, but Freemotion suggested I try the goat section for input since not so many people may be reading the sheep posts and goats are pretty similar.

The whole story is at http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=61146#p61146
but to summarize, two ~4.5 month old ewe-lambs got into the grain two days ago. At this point one is totally normal/fine but the other has had pretty bad diarrhea (scours) ever since. She is currently acting "nearly normal" but the diarrhea is not improving and I need to know what's the best way to proceed to fix her up.

She is my favorite sheep, my huggy petting-zoo type sheep, and this is all totally my fault, and I have no clue what to do (other than I've been pushing hay; but have been letting her out on pasture during the day as she seemed unhappy at being confined)

Any help MUCH appreciated, by me and by Peace,

Pat


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## ksalvagno (May 12, 2010)

I would probably start her on some Pepto. It sounds like it is time to try and get that firmed up. If Helmstead or Roll Farms doesn't get on here, I would PM them. I noticed they aren't on as much lately.


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## patandchickens (May 12, 2010)

Ok.... doseage? I am not sure what she weighs, I'm going to guess maybe 60-80 lbs?

Should I also give her some more live-culture yogurt, as you suggested yesterday?

Pat


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## cmjust0 (May 12, 2010)

The two biggest problems with grain-bin-break-ins are overeating disease (enterotoxemia) and acidosis..  Less serious is dietary scour.

If the doe's acting OK other than the scour...and it's been a couple days already...it's probably not entero.  If it was, she'd have had a bloody, mucousy, dirty-water scour and that probably would have killed her by now.

I'd do probios and pepto..  As for the dosage on Pepto, I'd hit an animal that size with 30ml every...I dunno...6-8 hours?  Take her completely off grain, too, until she straightens up.

If this was a truly dangerous scour, I think she'd probably be dead by now...  If she's more or less normal, or even if she's just eating and drinking OK, that's even better.  Just keep the pepto to her until she firms up, and I'd probably also do probios once a day.

Is she current on vaccinations?


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## patandchickens (May 12, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I'd do probios and pepto..  As for the dosage on Pepto, I'd hit an animal that size with 30ml every...I dunno...6-8 hours?  Take her completely off grain, too, until she straightens up.


Oh, indeedy, they have had *no* grain since the day they got into it.



> If she's more or less normal, or even if she's just eating and drinking OK, that's even better.


Yup, she is a bit less "run over to greet me" than usual, and yesterday she seemed a bit hunched up, but I do not think that my husband would see anything at all wrong with her behavior (the ol' "husband test" LOL)



> Just keep the pepto to her until she firms up, and I'd probably also do probios once a day.


OK, will do. Don't know where to buy Probios in Canada, though, all I've got is live-culture yogurt.



> Is she current on vaccinations?


Yup, her dam had the C+D shot a month or whatever before lambing, and Peace herself had her first Covexin8 shot two weeks ago.

Thanks muchly,

Pat, gonna go out there with the Pepto now.


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## cmjust0 (May 12, 2010)

Wouldn't hurt to throw a little baking soda into the mix, now that you mention her being "hunched up" a bit..

What I suspect happened here is that, after she broke in and ate her little heart out, the grain fermented quickly (as grain does) and dropped the pH of her rumen, leading to rumenal acidosis.  

I'm of the opinion that acidosis can cause anything from a tummyache to _death_, and that a lot of what we see and call _dietary scour_ is actually a little touch of rumenal acidosis..  

That's just my own personal speculative conjecture, though..

Anyway...sodium bicarbonate is a base and should help neutralize acid, if she's not balanced back out quickly..  The pepto should coat the GI and protect it from the acid, which -- if left unabated -- can lead to things like rumenitis and so forth..

I doubt we're gonna get to that point here, though..  I think that with some pepto, perhaps some baking soda, and maybe something with good live cultures will do the trick and she'll be fine.



Something else you have to consider are fluids...is she drinking OK?  The way I check for dehydration in goats is to pinch their upper eyelids into a 'tent' between my thumb and index finger.  If it snaps back (or it's so fat you can't get ahold of it..  ), they're OK..  If it remains tented once released and kinda sllllllides back down into place, get fluids in her.

Best way I've found to get fluids into a goat (...or sheep, in this case) is SQ'ing a bag of lactated ringers.  Super easy to do and provides 1L quickly..  It's the equivalent of 33 drenches of a full 30ml drench gun..


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## patandchickens (May 12, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Wouldn't hurt to throw a little baking soda into the mix, now that you mention her being "hunched up" a bit..


I may have forgotten to mention it, but I did give her some more baking soda yesterday afternoon when she was like that. Today she isn't hunching. Actually this afternoon her vulva is quite clean and the surrounding fur mostly just *dried* crud; I was unable to hang around out there long enough to see her poop, but I *think* it's probably better. Gave her a dose of Pepto just in case though. 



> What I suspect happened here is that, after she broke in and ate her little heart out, the grain fermented quickly (as grain does) and dropped the pH of her rumen, leading to rumenal acidosis.


Yup, that's what I was figuring.  

So, in hindsight, did I do the right thing in giving them water/oil/bakingsoda mix when I found them, taking away their water, and having only hay in front of them for the next 18 hrs? 

(Not that I am PLANNING on having this happen again, a sheep-proof second gate is now installed on that doorway, but, you know, I should probably find out just in case...)



> Something else you have to consider are fluids...is she drinking OK?  The way I check for dehydration in goats is to pinch their upper eyelids into a 'tent'


I have seen her drink a number of times, but it is good to know that method for checking for dehydration (things that work on horses/cats are no good for these woolly critters!) and I will check her when I'm out there after dinner.

Thank you SO MUCH, 

Pat


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## cmjust0 (May 12, 2010)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> I may have forgotten to mention it, but I did give her some more baking soda yesterday afternoon when she was like that.






> Today she isn't hunching. Actually this afternoon her vulva is quite clean and the surrounding fur mostly just *dried* crud; I was unable to hang around out there long enough to see her poop, but I *think* it's probably better. Gave her a dose of Pepto just in case though.


 again 



> > What I suspect happened here is that, after she broke in and ate her little heart out, the grain fermented quickly (as grain does) and dropped the pH of her rumen, leading to rumenal acidosis.
> 
> 
> Yup, that's what I was figuring.
> ...


I never withhold water under any circumstance, but if I were ever tempted for some reason, I definitely wouldn't do it if I had one scouring..  The risk of dehydration is too high, and dehydration can be deadly.

Everything else you did gets a  from me.



> (Not that I am PLANNING on having this happen again, a sheep-proof second gate is now installed on that doorway, but, you know, I should probably find out just in case...)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## patandchickens (May 12, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I never withhold water under any circumstance, but if I were ever tempted for some reason, I definitely wouldn't do it if I had one scouring..  The risk of dehydration is too high, and dehydration can be deadly.


Well, it seemed a bit odd to me (I can't recall me withholding water from an animal before, either) but from the panicked googling  I did that evening, at which point she was bloating a bit but NOT scouring, I saw a significant number of recommendations (although mostly for cattle) to withhold water in the case of grain-overload bloat, the rationale being that the less water the less fermentation of the material.

I am totally not qualified to comment on whether that a) makes sense or b) is real-world effective; I took basic physiology in college but oddly it did not cover "what to do when your sheep eats too much" and the rest of my biology background is UTTERLY useless in this sort of situation  (But if the sheep ever need a multivariate statistical analysis done of species-diversity measures in their pasture, or something like that, I'm all set! <snort>)

So, next time, not that there IS a next time, leave slightly-bloated possibly-going-acidotic animal with water available, then?

This is a steep learning curve for me, sigh 

Pat


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## cmjust0 (May 12, 2010)

I'd leave it with water, personally...yeah.  Absolutely.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 12, 2010)

Just went through this with 2 goat.  One survived and one did not.

For a 50 ish lb Nigerian Dwarf.

40 cc / ml of Pepto every 4 hours.

In between my vet had me give him a slurry.  This slurry was made of

40 cc of soda water (Mix soda water with this proportions 1 TBSP baking soda to 1/4 cup water)
40 cc of plain yogurt to get good bacteria build back up in the stomach.

I did this for 2 days.  As soon as the poop stops being runny, stop the pepto.  Too much Pepto, she said could cause him to get bound up.

All the water they want and good hay.  No grain for a weak, then introduce it back slowly.

Like I said, I saved one but lost the other. 

Hope this helps.  Kate (Helmstead) should be along soon.  She will have more info.


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## patandchickens (May 13, 2010)

This morning she seems behaviorally 100% fine, and I would describe her stools merely as "soft and not formed" (comparable to raccoon or human) rather than diarrhea as such. So, I think it's going to be ok, thank you all for the help and education! 

Pat


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## ksalvagno (May 13, 2010)

glad to hear your girl is doing better!


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