# CL... It's no joke



## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 23, 2017)

Now I understand the importance of testing for CL and buying tested animals. CL is no joke. 

I had a doe develop an abcess last year; it appeared that Latte ate something prickly which had to work it's way out. It could have been, and I'm still not sure.

This year she got two more abcesses, at the same time, right next to each other. The other two girls in that pen with her also developed abcesses. Right now my doe, Latte, doesn't have abcesses that I've found, but her sister had a huge one under her chin/on her jaw. I had that one tested... It came back positive for CL. 

I'm sharing this to hopefully prevent someone from going through the same painful experience I am. I didn't think testing was something I needed to do, I guess I didn't think it would really happen. I was wrong. I have no idea where the CL came from, but now I need to eliminate it. It could have come from anywhere... Only the ones in that particular pen got it.

My first plan of action is to test those three girls. I know the one tested positive already, but I want to do the blood test and get the (titer?) number for each of them.

Then, the CL+ ones will have to go. I pray Latte comes back negative, but I can't put the rest of the herd at risk by keeping positive goats.

The boys and my two new girls have not shown any signs of CL, but I will want to test them at some point too.

Right now I have the one with the abcess separate. The other two pen buddy's are in a different pen by themselves. I wash my hands after touching them or their water dish, and feed them last.

I had started the new goat house with my brother (pics in my journal) and used some of the plywood from the pen where the doe with CL is, not knowing she had it. This morning I sprayed those boards with bleach water. If Latte and Carmella come back negative, I think I will put them there in the new house for the winter. Thinking I will leave Josie and Eliza where they are, to prevent risking them getting it.

@Southern by choice has been a big help already, I talked to her about this a couple days ago. @rosti has been there for me since the beginning too. Thank you both.

CL is real guys... 

Yes, sometimes I feel like giving up goats. But deep down, I don't want to. I'm going to do my best to eliminate CL from my herd, and look forward to having a clean healthy herd.


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 23, 2017)




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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 23, 2017)

One thing I'm wondering... What do you do with the CL+ goats? How do you dispose of them? I know you don't eat them, but I'm thinking you wouldn't want to bury them? Or does that not matter?


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## promiseacres (Sep 23, 2017)

sorry


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## Green Acres Farm (Sep 23, 2017)

BlessedWithGoats said:


> One thing I'm wondering... What do you do with the CL+ goats? How do you dispose of them? I know you don't eat them, but I'm thinking you wouldn't want to bury them? Or does that not matter?


From what I've read, you can still eat them, but obviously not the part with abscesses. Tennessee Meat Goats has some good articles.


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## babsbag (Sep 24, 2017)

You could eat them and not worry about it. According to a vet on a FB group they are starting to treat CL with Draxxin. I haven't done any research on that at all, just thought I would throw it out there.

Sorry you are dealing with this, I just did blood tests on three does for CL and fortunately all was ok. Not sure what I would have done...

The lab I used didn't do titers. They ran a ELISA test and the results came back with optical density readings...first time of I have seen that.


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## Hens and Roos (Sep 24, 2017)

sorry to hear


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## Latestarter (Sep 24, 2017)

So sorry you're having to deal with this. Hope you can get it eradicated. I believe it's going to take years...


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## babsbag (Sep 24, 2017)

If I had CL on my land and some goats that were still negative I would vaccinate my herd. It may give positive results with a blood test but it will allow you to sleep easier and help eradicate the disease.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks everyone


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## Baymule (Sep 24, 2017)

If you vaccinate for CL, I understand that goat will test positive, but what about any offspring? 

I am so sorry that you are dealing with this.


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## babsbag (Sep 24, 2017)

The offspring will not test positive. The vaccine makes the animal's immune system mount a response to the virus and the titers just show that an animal has been exposed to the virus. The titer should never go up over time, it quite possibly will get lower over time on a vaccinated animal.  The goats that have CL will still get abscesses but the ones that don't should not have any active infections.  I would probably still cull positive animals if your goal is to eradicate it from your herd and land.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 25, 2017)

That's my plan currently, to cull all CL+ goats. I sent the blood samples out this morning for the three does from that pen.


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## Baymule (Sep 25, 2017)




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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 26, 2017)

I have another question...

I had started using boards for the new goat house that were originally in what is now the CL + pen. I didn't know that Mocha had CL, and I was using what I had. I took bleach water and lightly sprayed them the other day... do you think this is sufficient to eliminate any bacteria that may have been on them, or am I risking the new girls getting CL if I put them over there?


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## Hens and Roos (Sep 26, 2017)

guess I would error on the side of caution and not use the boards from the CL+ pen- sorry that you are going through this


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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 26, 2017)

Thanks 
Problem is the boards are already over there, and possibly bacteria could have already spread, because I hadn't been washing my hands after handling the boards, not knowing that they had it, etc...  But along those same lines, pretty much anything could be contaminated. I washed my hands after treating the abscesses on the does (flushing it with rubbing alcohol in water), but I wasn't as particular as I am now that I know they have CL.

I'm thinking of just leaving Eliza and Josie where they are for this Winter at least, but it's a small pen and not quite set up for Winter. It's facing the wrong way... I could see what I can do to fix it up though.


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## babsbag (Sep 26, 2017)

Did any of your goats ever had abscesses that burst where they might have rubbed on the boards?


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## BlessedWithGoats (Sep 26, 2017)

Yes, from the goats that lived there and havent been tested yet.. I don't remember if the one that tested positive had one previously or not. I have sent the blood out for testing on all three, even though we know the one was positive.


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## Baymule (Sep 26, 2017)




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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 4, 2017)

I got the results back today... All three of those tested does came back positive for CL. The plan is to cull them from the herd.

For anyone reading this thread that doesn't already test, please carefully consider the importance of testing your herd. It's real.


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## Latestarter (Oct 4, 2017)

So sorry BWG... that simply sucks.  I hope the infection stops with those you already know about and doesn't spread to the others.


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## Baymule (Oct 4, 2017)

x2


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## babsbag (Oct 4, 2017)

I'm sorry, that is not the results we wanted to hear.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 5, 2017)

sorry to hear


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 5, 2017)

Thanks everyone 

I am going to cry when I have to say goodbye to Latte, I'm sure. 

I need to draw blood on Monday for the boys and send it in. I have to wait a bit more for the new girls.


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 5, 2017)

for the boys!


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## TAH (Oct 5, 2017)

So sorry BlessedWithGoats!


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## Latestarter (Oct 5, 2017)

Seriously hoping it's not a complete scratch for you. I hope the remainder are clear. Might take a while to verify that for sure...


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 5, 2017)

Thanks LS. I hope the others come back fine too.

I don't think I will be putting anyone in the new house we were making... That project is on hold for now, due to the fact that I used boards from the CL+ pen before knowing those goats had CL. The boys have their houses already if they come back clean, and I will have to fix up the spot Josie and Eliza are in so they can stay there for the Winter.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 5, 2017)

Hens and Roos said:


> for the boys!


Thank you for the well wishes, I hope they come back clean too...


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## hollymh (Oct 6, 2017)

Hi, we are picking up to doelings tmrw, these will be our first and Im trying to cover all my bases and found this thread. Where/how can I have my girls tested for CL? They are 8wks, will that be too early? Thank you!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 6, 2017)

hollymh said:


> Hi, we are picking up to doelings tmrw, these will be our first and Im trying to cover all my bases and found this thread. Where/how can I have my girls tested for CL? They are 8wks, will that be too early? Thank you!


You can have blood drawn and sent to a lab; I used Sage Ag lab and have had a good experience with them.
They need to be 6 months I believe, to be tested for CL and CAE. 18 months for Johnes.
Do you know if the breeder tested their goats? You can ask to see the results if they did.  It might give a better idea on what to expect for your girls.  Best wishes to you!


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## rosti (Oct 6, 2017)

@hollymh That's pretty young. As BlessedWithGoats said, you'll have better luck making sure the breeder's herd is test negative. If not, it's not worth taking the risk, as I can tell you with the stress of keeping things separate, and losing my best doe to CAE, and as blessedwithgoats is saying, with CL. It's just not worth it-there are too many breeders out there that do test, to risk it with one that doesn't.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 7, 2017)

They are gone. Latte and the two other does were put down this morning. 
Latte was a great goat; she's been here since I first got goats, was the first one I witnessed kidding for, and made it through last years rough times with the parasites etc. She was so beautiful, in my eyes. She was my girl. I will miss her.


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## frustratedearthmother (Oct 7, 2017)

I'm so sorry.  Even knowing it's the right thing to do doesn't make it any easier.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2017)

So so very sorry


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## Mini Horses (Oct 7, 2017)

I am so with your sorrow


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 7, 2017)




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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you all.

I'm doing okay, but it could possibly be that it hasn't fully hit me yet or that I'm in that numb state. Latte was second to be PTS, and that was so hard. I told her I was so sorry... My Latte


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 7, 2017)

I am so so so sorry. I can't put it into words. My heart hurts for you


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 7, 2017)

Thanks GW


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## TAH (Oct 7, 2017)

@BlessedWithGoats I have no words! I am so sorry!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you


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## Latestarter (Oct 7, 2017)

So sorry for your loss. Hard under any circumstances but exponentially more so when so many herd members are involved. Tough road ahead... Best wishes moving forward.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you LS.  I pray the rest of them are healthy and get clean results.

Maybe that's what Shaya really died from, like a friend mentioned... They said she had an abcess on her liver that ruptured. Maybe it was CL.


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## Baymule (Oct 8, 2017)

I am so sorry. It is so hard to have to make that kind of decision. We had to put down my favorite ewe because she had a ruptured pre pubic tendon, she died in my arms. I understand your pain.


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## maritown (Oct 8, 2017)

My heart goes out to you.  I can't imagine...this is a powerful reminder to all of us to not take CL lightly.


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## ragdollcatlady (Oct 8, 2017)

I am so sorry!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 9, 2017)

I got blood drawn on all the boys, except for Bergamot. I tried and tried and only got a little bit of blood from him, which ended up in the cap. Not sure if I accidentally squeezed the syringe or what. Anyhow...

He is short, and very hairy. I tried trimming his fur where I thought the vein would be. I still didn't get it. His vein was hard to find, if I found it at all. I can't put him on a stand right now... @OneFineAcre @Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer and anyone else with Nigies, do you have any advice on how to draw blood from Bergamot?

Thank you!


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 9, 2017)

Was he really tense?

I was just out on a call and needed yo pull blood on a bunch of goats. Got all the goats on the first try with no issues. The last doe was a fat (obese) yearling who was a complete spaz. Just crazed and the moment someone touched her, her who body was tense. You could feel her "crazy vibe" just from being around her. 
I got somewhat of a vein, as soon as I inserted the needle she flipped.

Sat with her trying to calm her down for well over 10 minutes. She was still very tense and could not come down. 

The doe had an obvious love for food, so I told the owner to get a small handful of pellets and let the doe slowly eat. That did the trick, as soon as she smelled the food she eased up and I got the blood right away.

I wouldn't do this all the time, but in this case it worked very well. 

If he is intact, he is in rut and their necks swell, making it much harder to pull blood. Sometimes vets can't even get blood from a rutting buck, their necks are just too swollen! 

We got this head piece, it is worth the $30 and works great for copper bolusing, blood draws, and clipping for show.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 9, 2017)

Thanks GW!

I had a hard time with Bergamot's son, who is at least 3/4 Nigie, but was finally able to get him in a position where I was able to hold his head and draw the blood. Bergamot didn't have the same result, lol. I finally had him up on a tote to add some height, and he stood more still, but I still wasn't able to get the blood. I will have to try again! Shipping one blood sample would be expensive though... Not sure what I'm gonna do there...


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 9, 2017)

I don't know that I would say he was really tense, but he was tense at times. When I had the tote he was standing on he seemed pretty calm.


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## ragdollcatlady (Oct 10, 2017)

I find that having a helper straddle the goat (works for nigis and smaller goats, not so much for larger), and use their knees to put a little pressiure on the ribs, just behind the front legs to keep them from backing up. My helper holds the goats head firmly up, but with the muzzle only angled partway up (too high and you will put too much tension on the vessels). Usually that does it. Hope this helps.


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## Jeanne Sheridan (Oct 10, 2017)

BlessedWithGoats said:


> One thing I'm wondering... What do you do with the CL+ goats? How do you dispose of them? I know you don't eat them, but I'm thinking you wouldn't want to bury them? Or does that not matter?


A couple people in my area have a herd of CL positive goats that they lease out as brush clearers.  We have black berries here that can cover an entire lot in a year if you let it.  Where the whole herd is positive and they only have does and wethers it works out OK, no unwanted pregnancies.  They make sure their customers know but most of the time they aren't clearing farm land, but construction sites.  The goats get a good life eating weeds to their hearts content and there clearing of land more than pays for their up keep.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 14, 2017)

So, the blood for 4 of the 5 boys was sent out on Tuesday. Hopefully this Wed or Thurs I will get the results back. I pray they come back with good results, especially Leo... Leo is my favorite buck I've ever had. He's so sweet!


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## Latestarter (Oct 15, 2017)




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## Hens and Roos (Oct 15, 2017)

for the test results!


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 19, 2017)

I am so thankful and happy!! Leo came back negative for all three diseases, CAE, CL, and Johnes, as did Donatello!! Praise the Lord! I'm so happy for Leo especially, he's very dear to me!
Ashton did come back positive for CL... I put him in the CL pen, and put Bergamot with him. I had a bad feeling about it when I couldn't draw Bergie's blood, and I don't feel comfortable leaving him in the pen with my sisters goat, who also came back negative for all three diseases.

So happy about those three that got a clean bill! Lord Willing I will test again in a couple of months, I'm thinking six... Safety precaution to get past the incubation period of CL, in case they had it but it hasn't shown up yet. I don't remember for certain what the incubation period was...


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## Latestarter (Oct 19, 2017)




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## Southern by choice (Oct 19, 2017)

So glad for good news! 
Incubation period I believe is 3 months. Not sure- but I think that is what it is.


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## TAH (Oct 20, 2017)

Yay.


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## babsbag (Oct 20, 2017)

Really happy for you that you got some good news. Are you going to be able to keep the negative goats away from the area that your positive ones were in? If not I would seriously consider the vaccine.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 20, 2017)

Thank you all!

Thanks SBC! I thought that's what the incubation period was, but didn't remember for sure!

@babsbag The boys were all in the same area, in two pens... I pulled Ashton and Bergie right away. I haven't seen any abscesses on them, so hopefully the other boys wont be affected at all... I'm planning on retesting, and I need to test my two doelings once Eliza is big enough. She's 4 months old right now, Josie is 7 I believe.  Josie.... She's such a sweetheart! I remember looking at her pic after she was born, and thinking/feeling that she was "my" goat. I'm so very glad she is!


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