# Disbudding goats - How'd I do?



## glenolam (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm excited and a little scared.  I've watched it a few times before in person and also watched stuff on-line. I have dehorned my cow before, but that was my first and so far only time dehorning/disbudding anything.  He turned out to have scurs, but I know it's because I didn't keep the iron on it long enough.  I wanted to hit him again and for a longer period, but DH (who had to put all his weight on the calf to hold him still) didn't want me to. :/

Anyhoo - any tips or pointers?  I know the standard stuff....count to eight, look for the copper ring, wear an ove glove or something like that...it's a buckling that was born 1/22/11 so we're already 2 weeks out.  I'm not sure what his buds look like at this point (he's my friend's buckling) and she was debating on keeping his horns, but has since decided not to.  He's either nubian/alpine or nigerian/nubian/alpine.  The doe (nubian/alpine) was supposed to be bred to the nigerian, but the kid has floppy ears and I guess is a little bigger than what she thinks he should be.  I said the floppy ears could've come from the nubian in the doe.

We're going to be using an X30.

Thanks!

Edited to update the thread title.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

Good luck, hope it goes well!! I have no pointers cuz  my husband does that!!!  Im a chicken  and I cant handle that part!!  

Although I understand how important it is to get done cuz our new buck we bought was not done that good and we deal with his scurs all the time!!  

Hope it goes well!!   One of those necessary evils to me!!!


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## poorboys (Feb 4, 2011)

Hope all goes well, I did my first disbudding last year, everyone had 1'' scurs, I know I did'nt hold the iron on long enough, and that is what caused it, I've done three this year and held for a count of about 15 seconds, the caps came off and i burn the top of the horn where the cap came off, I just hope for NO SCURS also you need to kinda rock the burner around, is that what I mean to say?????


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## glenolam (Feb 4, 2011)

I believe so - with the calf I "rotated" or rocked the iron around in circles...I think that's what you're talking about.


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## 4hmama (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't think an 8 count is long enough...but that's just me.  We use a 15 count and have never had scurs on doelings - some of them done as late as 2 weeks.  Bucklings - 15 count may not be quite long enough, especially if they are 2 weeks old.  We are doing nigi bucklings at just a few days now, and it is working better.  Make SURE that the tip on your X30 is a standard tip and not a mini tip - or it won't be big enough for the horn buds.  Our X30 mini tip wasn't big enough for our nigis, and my DH took and drill and make the hole larger.

As far as the age on this baby - if it looks like it's too late to burn - don't burn or you will just have a mess to deal with.  Good luck!!!


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## glenolam (Feb 8, 2011)

Luckily his buds hadn't even started to come to the surface.  I went for a count of 8-10 on each side (depending on my counting ability), then went back again and reburned each side for probably a count of 5ish...

The hardest part was not being able to feel how hard I was pressing on his head. I mean, I took the iron, put it to his head and it started burning.  I rocked it around for the 'counts' but couldn't really tell how much pressure I was putting on him.

He was fine afterwards - got a drink from mom and off he went.

She's going to let me know how he looks in a week or two and if he needs a touch up I get to go back and do it again.  She has the x30 with the standard tip.

Her daughter helped me; she's seen it done before but has never done it herself (only been the attendant) so I left it up to her to decide if he needed a third burning.  My friend thinks the right side (his left) will end up with scurs and I have no idea on either side.  Practice makes perfect, though!

Here's a pic...be (sorta) nice - it was my first time and it's a cell phone pic!








PS - notice the brown spot on his ear....that's what you get when you jump as they wiggle!  Live and learn!


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## helmstead (Feb 8, 2011)

I guess no one mentioned the figure-8 burn for bucks?

Looks good tho!  Congrats!!

I have to gasp at holding the iron on for 15 seconds.  Eeps.  Our doelings are done (_both sides_!) in 10 seconds, and bucks maybe 12 seconds total to get the figure-8 done.  We hate to leave that iron there any longer than absolutely necessary.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 8, 2011)

Way to jump in the deep end glenolam! 

If you shave their heads first you won't get all the stinky smoke in your eyes, BTW.


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## glenolam (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks - I knew about the scent glands, but thought that if you burned the top-inner portion a little longer that would take care of that.  However, if you didn't care about the scent glands a regular circle would suffice.

Does anyone else have any pics to share?  I'd love to see them! I'm going to do the kids my goats have this year so I'm trying to expose myself as much as possible to it.

ETA - I knew about the shaving part, but her clippers were broken and to be honest, the smoke or "smell" really didn't bother me.  I'm sick like that, though!  I just blew the smoke away if it got too bad.

I must say the only thing I would have done differently is wait longer in between sides/burns.  I took a little bit of time in between, but looking back I would have let the iron get super super hot again.  I'm sure it was fine anyway.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 8, 2011)

What do you mean scent glands?  Are you referring to Kate's figure 8 comment?  It's common to do a figure 8 burns to make sure you get the entire horn base.  And I do 8 seconds each side first, then look and see if I need to touch up with few second intervals. 

Just be sure to remember how you did these so you know what to do next time if there are scurs!  I was nervous last year wanting to make sure I did them well enough so there would not be scurs. I did 4 kids last year and no scurs!


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 8, 2011)

Here's the thread  from the spring where I posted the link to my video.  You can't really see detail, but it gives you an idea of what I did.


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## glenolam (Feb 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> What do you mean scent glands?  Are you referring to Kate's figure 8 comment?


Yep - I thought her comment meant that if you did a figure 8 on a buckling it would get rid of their scent glands as well as disbud them...am I thinking wrong?

Congrats on the 4 from last year!  I can only hope I get at least one good one in!


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## helmstead (Feb 8, 2011)

No, the scent glands are SO FAR back behind the horn that you'd have to burn again behind your first burn to get them...and really, the URINE smells way worse, so what's the point?!

The figure-8 is to get the whole base.  You do the usual burn around the 'main' bud, then another half burn down and to the inside to get the foreflutes of a buck's horns.  Usually by the time you disbud, you can actually FEEL these flute buds.  I'll get a pic next time I'm photographing out in the barn!


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## glenolam (Feb 8, 2011)

Oh, I see!  Pics would be great.

When we felt this little guy's nubs they felt like plain ol' nubs to me - but then again I don't really know what I'm feeling for!


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## KellyHM (Feb 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Here's the thread  from the spring where I posted the link to my video.  You can't really see detail, but it gives you an idea of what I did.


Just a random question after watching that.  Do you always burn across the top of the bud?  I've always just done the ring and it seems to have worked fine for the girls, although some of the boys have grown scurs (didn't know about the figure-8 either).


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## glenolam (Feb 8, 2011)

From what I've been told/read/heard some people burn the top and some don't.  When I disbudded this little guy (and my calf, for that matter) I took the iron and burned the bud right off.  I took the edge of the iron and sorta scraped it off, for lack of better words.

I can't view YouTube where I'm at so I'll be watching this as soon as I get home, you can be sure of that!


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 8, 2011)

Yeah, I think some do and some don't.  I did because I didn't want any scurs!  And that's what I've seen done before.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 8, 2011)

Congratulations!!!  I wish you a Scur free burn!!! I hope it works out great for you!!!!


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## redfarmhouse (Feb 8, 2011)

The thought of doing this makes me nervous but I am just starting this week with goats.  Hopefully, when the time comes, I'll be up to the task.


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## RoeDylanda (Feb 9, 2011)

Glenolam, nice job jumping in and learning! I'm going to want to see it done well a bunch of times before I try, because I don't want to cave in to the goat's distress and stop before it's really done. It'll be at least a year before I have to do it myself. 

Good for you!


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## glenolam (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks for the props everyone!

I'm more of a "I have to do it to learn it" person.  I can read and watch all I want, but until I actually do it nothing really sinks in.

Now that I've got two goat kids of my own (hee hee!) I'll be doing this again in a few days/weeks!


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## glenolam (Feb 16, 2011)

So, helm....I'm know your busy birthin babies, but any chance I can see a pic of that figure 8?

Or does anyone else have any disbudding photos?  I'm going to do my 2 "nuberhasli" doelings this weekend so I'm prepping.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Feb 20, 2011)

I've never done it before, but I will probably have to do it this Friday or Saturday, since that is when Debbie (One of my leased goats) is due. We're also going to be tattooing them  

One thing I haven't seen in any videos or pictures on here.... Why didn't you guys make/buy some kid restraint boxes so then they don't wiggle and you might be able to disbud by yourself? 
Here's a page on how to build one from a kit


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## helmstead (Feb 20, 2011)

When DH gets back from GA we have several to do...I'll get pics and a video, promise!  Prolly Weds or Thurs,


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## glenolam (Feb 26, 2011)

Here's a bunch of pictures of my two doelings that I did on 2/17/11.  Let me know what you think.  The doeling with the white ears moved while I was disbudding her right side so I ended up burning hair.  I had cut the hair off around the nubs, but she really jerked her head so I ended up frying some of the hair I didn't cut off.  Upon inspection, it looks as though it's the same as the left side (meaning, copper rings).




























And...just because I don't want to leave you on a bad note...


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 26, 2011)

I don't know a thing about disbudding, but that last picture sure is adorable!


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## glenolam (Feb 28, 2011)

Thanks O7W - anyone else with disbudding experience have any thoughts?


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## msjuris (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm waiting for Helmstead to share pictures of the figure 8 that should be done on bucks.


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## glenolam (Mar 2, 2011)




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## mistee (Mar 2, 2011)

i hate disbudding,,,lol.. I hold while hubby burns.. we have did it the last 2 years and still get scurs.. Last year I thought we had it,, thought we had a nice copper ring but NOPE,, scurs!  fingers crossed this year things go better,,,sigh!!


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

I'll take my camera out to the barn this morning!  Our last disbuddings were at 11 pm, and I forgot to video them...but luckily we just had buck/doe twins so when they get done, I'll video it...


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## helmstead (Mar 2, 2011)

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=102729#p102729

There's my pics.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 3, 2011)

Sometimes the black marks are just soot from the iron, but sometimes it indicates skin that didn't get cauterized enough..  My experience has been that if you get lots of black like that and can't quite get the copper no matter how many times you hit it, you're not letting your iron get hot enough..  

The hotter, the better!  Let that baby GLOW.  Don't take the edge off of it on a piece of wood right before hitting the baby goat, either...let it get so hot you're afraid you're going to go straight thru to the brain and then let'er rip.  That's where your best disbudding will happen.

Thing is, though...you did it!  It's a horrific process that nobody wants to endure, and you did it!  Was it perfect?...who knows...pictures can be misleading, and ultimately only time will tell.  Even if it wasn't absolutely perfect, big deal.  Who cares..  Scurs happen, yanno?

Still proud of ya.


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## glenolam (Mar 4, 2011)

Thanks, CM!  I appreciate you pointing out that stuff on the pictures.

FWIW, I let the iron heat up for about 45 min prior to disbudding.  The brown doeling was first - I can assure you the iron was glowing red before I did her.  I don't recall if I did the wood test or not; I don't think so because I remember looking at it saying "Geez....that's gotta be hot..."

(ETA) I also waited long in between sides and in between doelings.  I know I can't just go from side to side, kid to kid without the iron getting tired and cold so I was sure to leave some 'warm up' time in between.

If I read your notes correctly, then the left side of the brown doeling's picture (her right horn bud) is how both sides should look.  Is that right?

Last night I inspected the girls again and it appears as though the burns are starting to "cap off" for lack of a better term.  I can feel the scabs starting to lift off in a circle type pattern.  Both scabs on both girls seem to be lifting off in circles, BTW.  I just don't know what I should be looking for on the outside of the circles or even under the scab as far as scurs.

Now, I am worried about the right side of the white-eared doeling where I got mostly hair due to her jolting.

It's been 2 weeks since I disbudded them - if I have any worries about them is it too late to hit them again or should I just sit tight and wait and see if they get scurs?  I'd hate to just leave them be and really don't mind disbudding them again, but also realize I shouldn't burn them again unless it's absolutely necessary.

I have a local vet I could bring them to - maybe I'll stop on by with the girls and see what they think...


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## freemotion (Mar 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=102729#p102729
> 
> There's my pics.


The link didn't work for me.  Is it just me?  Can't wait for the video.  I haven't done any disbudding but I think about it all the time....   I like horns on my goats but know that most people don't and I'll be selling all kids this year.  Trying to get brave.


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

My thread has been removed.  I will happily discuss disbudding via PM but due to some of the membership here calling open season on me, will no longer be posting about it.


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## glenolam (Mar 4, 2011)

Not that I'm a pro, free, and definitely can't guarantee anything but I'll gladly help you just to get the experience!!! I have an X30 ready and willing to go!  I do understand, though, that you may want to have someone more capapble handle this if your plan is to sell them to people who are expecting no scurs, but keep it in mind.


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## freemotion (Mar 4, 2011)

Thanks, glenolam!  I'll seriously consider it.  We have time, as my does were bred late.

OK, everyone, PM helmstead to petition her to post and not let the inmates run the asylum!  Post a tutorial and then get the thread locked right away so this doesn't happen again.  I want a video link, too.


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## chandasue (Mar 4, 2011)

Arg... I wanted to see the video too!


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

Well, now that I've seen the sister to this thread over on Sufficient Self...I'm not terribly motivated to be of any further assistance.  Quite rude.  So...you ask our opinions here, and then run over to another board and make fun of us?  Nice.

I have never said the method I employ is the only way to disbud, but it does work - and well.  I am done with this subject.


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## glenolam (Mar 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Well, now that I've seen the sister to this thread over on Sufficient Self...I'm not terribly motivated to be of any further assistance.  Quite rude.  So...you ask our opinions here, and then run over to another board and make fun of us?  Nice.
> 
> I have never said the method I employ is the only way to disbud, but it does work - and well.  I am done with this subject.


I never once made fun of anyone specifically and if you took it personal, I apologize.  I mentioned it already, we made light of a tense situation.  If that offends you, I'm not sure what to say.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> So...you ask our opinions here, and then run over to another board and make fun of *us*?


Got a mouse in yer pocket?


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

I guess you did alright....  personally, we prefer our goats with horns, it makes it easier to lead them... and my stomach usually isn't queasy... but something about burning the bloody horn makes my stomach all swishy swashy.   Just bring myself to do it.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 4, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> helmstead said:
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I disbud the same way as Kate, so maybe by "us" she meant herself and other producers who "massacre heads" and whatnot.  Like us.


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## Lady Jane (Mar 4, 2011)

Like glenolam, I just disbudded my first kids a few weeks ago. If the job was not done properly enough when would I be able to tell? And as glen asked, would it be too late by now to heat up the burner again?


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

I come carefully with advice...

If they're going to grow scurs...it will be noticeable between 3 and 6 months of age.

You should wait at least 9 weeks before reburning, if they need reburned.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I come carefully with advice...
> 
> If they're going to grow scurs...it will be noticeable between 3 and 6 months of age.
> 
> You should wait at least 9 weeks before reburning, if they need reburned.


agreed


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## Lady Jane (Mar 4, 2011)

Thank you helmstead. That advice sounds great to me and is very much appreciated.


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## glenolam (Mar 5, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I come carefully with advice...


No need to hide or come carefully - I prefer full force.  



> If they're going to grow scurs...it will be noticeable between 3 and 6 months of age.
> 
> You should wait at least 9 weeks before reburning, if they need reburned.


Glad to get that info, too.  My girls' buds are starting to "chip" off aorund the edges and it looks like the buds will soon fall off.  I was wondering when is the time to really investigate.

BTW, Livinwright - it's really not THAT bloody IMO.  Granted I've only done a few but all that I've seen in addition to done weren't bloody at all.  Maybe a little bit here and there, but a touch of the iron where the blood was stopped that right up.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

glenolam~
Two things made me decide not to disbud my herd:
google-ing images for disbudding 
and the fact that my 3yr old does have horns. 
I don't want any defenseless kids with these two, or anywhere near my bucklings.. I swear Marly was born butting heads!


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## helmstead (Mar 5, 2011)

Give it time, I bet EVENTUALLY you'll start disbudding.  I started with a horned herd - and was actually STAUNCHLY against disbudding.  I thought it was cruel and unusual.

Until:
1) I got my first peri puncture wound on one of my goats delivered by an alpha doe (poor LG!)
2) I started having trouble selling horned kids
3) My DH took a horn to the eye while trimming hooves
4) My children took horns to various body parts (not being butted, just accidentally) and became scared of the horned goats
5) I got my nose broken!  Total accident, I bent over, doe stood up.
6) We spent over $1000 replacing fences that those horns easily tore holes through

So, when we finally broke down and went to get disbudding lessons...I was amazed how fast it was, how the kid acted like nothing had happened...and compared to deHORNING my adults (which I was in the process of doing and have now dehorned well over 20 adults) it was MUCH better to disbud.

I think horned goats are beautiful.  I DO see both sides of the fence here...but for most dairy producers, especially...horns usually have to go.


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## mossyStone (Mar 5, 2011)

I am a wimp i can NOT do the deed..... But i have a no horn policy here, just not worth the risk to me, my family or our fences.....  One day i may have to learn to do it, but as long as i have friends who can ( i do pay a small fee)  worth every penny to me  thats how i'll do it.....


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## glenolam (Mar 5, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> and the fact that my 3yr old does have horns.


As I was reading this the first thing that popped into my head was the terrible toddler stage and your human kid running around like the devil.....



I do agree with helm - and to each his own.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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his... or *her* own...


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## ohiofarmgirl (Mar 5, 2011)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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i had to think about that one for a second also... kids with horns.. hum...

last year we did not disbud. this year we will with our keeper doeling. 

our doeling from last year figured out that if i grabbed her up by the collar she could quickly twist her head, catching my wrist between her horns. that ended the discussion for me. and as Helms said, i think its easier to sell a "horn-free" goat. 

but to be fair, my earless (lamancha), hornless goat got stuck in the fence. that was a head scratcher for sure. 

and yes, everyone to their own


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Mar 5, 2011)

I really don't think it was that bad, but I just watched a friend do it..... and I'm a pre-teen! It just smelled REALLY bad, since he didn't shave his heads.


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## glenolam (Mar 5, 2011)

His/Her S/He......you all knew what I meant! 

Dreaming.....the first goat I disbudded I did not shave his head.  Stunk to high heaven forever.  I didn't mind it, but it got a little annoying.

I cut the hair around my two doeling's buds (I didn't have any shavers that held up to their hair) and it was a dramatic difference.  Blades or scissors I'll always be trimming up their heads prior to disbudding.


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## TheSheepGirl (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm glad and amazed at how civilized you guys are about this conversation. I mentioned Dubbing combs once and it started a debate that got the thread shut down.

Thank you all for being so calm and kind about your advice and opinions and for all the helpful information.

Mom and I may be disbudding later. We had twin bucklings born last night. We know someone with an iron. 

I'm certain it looks and sounds worse than it actually is. I've only seen disbudding scabs that were a week old and they looked like just regular scabs. 

Mom had a hard enough time with castrating pigs, so I'm not sure how the pair of us will do with disbudding. More out of pity than anything else I suppose.


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## Chickenfever (Mar 5, 2011)

I appreciate all this input on disbudding.  We (and when I say we I mean DH) will be disbudding our first goat kids this week.  Not looking forward to it but realize it will be much easier to do it ourselves if we have several goats having kids every year.  We at least got to watch it done to our triplets last year and no scurs on our doe that we retained.  He got a good copper ring, scraped the bud off with the tip of the iron and then burned an X where the horn bud was.  
I did want to add to the debate on the topic of whether or not to disbud that we did keep one of the bucklings from last year to slaughter as a meat goat. We did not disbud him since we knew he would well...become dinner.  Big mistake.  He bullies with his horns.  He has hurt our buck that is almost twice his size and really I don't even think he would try to butt if he didn't have horns, they know when they have a nice set of weapons on their head. He will be gone soon


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah, NEVER keep a horned goat(or goats) with the dehorned or naturally poled.. they WILL injure those without!

I will add, that having a herd *with* horns makes it a LOT easier to grab them and lead them!  when you have one of their horns(instead of their collar) they are more than obliged to follow your lead. They will dip their heads, so horns are going first, and walk along right behind you! 
Whether or not to disbud is a personal choice, and every goat's temperment is different. Having two 3yr old does, two 7 month old bucklings, and one 7 month doeling all with horns... I am not going to waste the money now with the vet, more than likely leaving my herd with open/bleeding sinus cavities... If at some point we have another area fenced in and obtain a small herd of dairy breed does, then if they are poled or disbudded it would be okay. Right now, it is not do-able


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## glenolam (Mar 7, 2011)

Good luck Sheepgirl and Chickenfever!  Just remember to take your time (but not take forever).  And then come here and post pictures/updates!!

Livin - you're correct on how it's a little easier to handle horned goats.  My friend kept her two bucks as is and when she had to handle them to do hoof trimming and such it was much easier for her to control them by holding on to their horns to calm them.


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