# Settle a Debate about weaning....



## bbredmom (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi Ya'll!

I've had goats for almost two years now, mostly just as pets/rescues. My two kids that have been born I just let them dam-feed because I didn't have the time/energy as a single woman to bottle raise and milk goats.

However.....

I have subsequently met, fallen in love with, and am now cohabitating with a wonderful man who was raised, you guessed it, on a goat farm. And since we have one alpine cross doe and one saneen cross doe, both with beautiful pregnancy udders, we both think we should milk this time.

Here is the problem. He wants to bottle feed from the start, never let them suckle on mum. milk the milk, put it in bottles, etc.

I want the babies to feed on the moms for at least a week, then switch to bottle fed. I know its harder, but the other way seems like its crueler and a lot of trouble! 

They will need to be fed at least four times a day. We both work full time! And I've read that sometimes bottle fed babies are not as healthy as their dam raised siblings.

So what do y'all think? Is my city breeding coming out in me, or do I have a valid point? Thanks!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

I understand where you're coming from in feeling like snatch rearing is cruel or mean somehow, but it's really not..  By the time you get just a few feedings in, the kids will already be craning their little necks to get at the nipple..  Within just a few days, when they see you coming with a bottle, I promise you won't be able to get it in their mouths fast enough.  As far as they know, things are happening exactly the way they're supposed to happen..

So, basically, that leaves the hassle of 3x-4x/daily feedings vs. the hassle of switching a week old kid from its dam to a bottle..  

Personally, there's little more I hate in the world than having to fight a kid to make it take a bottle..  I mean, I truly hate it.  It's very unpleasant for all parties involved.....milk everywhere, loud shrieky sounds, coughing, choking.  It just SUCKS.

That said, I'd choose snatch rearing with a few days of 3x/day feedings anytime.

But..that's just me!


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I understand where you're coming from in feeling like snatch rearing is cruel or mean somehow, but it's really not..  By the time you get just a few feedings in, the kids will already be craning their little necks to get at the nipple..  Within just a few days, when they see you coming with a bottle, I promise you won't be able to get it in their mouths fast enough.  As far as they know, things are happening exactly the way they're supposed to happen..
> 
> So, basically, that leaves the hassle of 3x-4x/daily feedings vs. the hassle of switching a week old kid from its dam to a bottle..
> 
> ...


Ditto. Some kids it is VERY hard to teach them to take the bottle. My last batch was triplets from a nanny we bought that was pregnant. I wanted to let them with mom for 3 days then take them. She got depressed, screamed and hollered all day and went off her feed. 1 of the 3 babies absolutely refused to take the bottle. I mean, completely. And at only 3 days old. I finally gave the little buckling away simply because I did not have the time (or patience!) to try and force a few ounces down his throat 4X's a day. Once he was gone and not screaming for her she quit screaming and started eating again. But of course her milk production isn't what it should have been if she would have ate like she normally would.

My first round of babies were 2 weeks old. That was even worse.

Next time around, I plan on pulling the moment they're born.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

I need to amend something I said..  There is indeed one thing I hate WAY more than trying to make a screaming kid take a bottle, and that's trying to revive a cold, lethargic, near-comatose kid and get it to the point where it regains enough suckling reflex to know what to do when you stick a nipple in its mouth.

Now _that_ sucks, with a capital F.  

Incidentally (wonder of wonders) I've never discovered a snatch reared kid in any such condition.

I'm not sayin'........I'm just sayin'.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 3, 2009)

I think you need to consider your lifestyle. If you work full time, it will probably feel like a pain to keep up with a bottle feeding schedule. Around my area, I'm finding about 50/50 with bottle raising verses mom raising. Most people who seem to let the mom raise the kids are the ones that work full time. The ones who bottle feed are the ones who do their goats full time. This is one of those things that you need to decide what is best for you.

Good luck with your goats


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## goat lady (Sep 3, 2009)

So let me get this straight because I have a doe that should kid any time now.  We will be selling off some of her babies.   Our bottle babies now were on the bottle when we got them.   But my question is: pull the babies right away and get them on the bottle or let them have a feeding or two on the momma and pull them a couple days old?


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## broke down ranch (Sep 3, 2009)

goat lady said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight because I have a doe that should kid any time now.  We will be selling off some of her babies.   Our bottle babies now were on the bottle when we got them.   But my question is: pull the babies right away and get them on the bottle or let them have a feeding or two on the momma and pull them a couple days old?


It depends how hard you want to work to get the babes to take the bottle. Remember, I had a buckling that at 3 days old would not even consider it. If you pull the babies before 2 weeks you will need to milk their mom out 2-3 times a day to get all of her colostrum and stimulate maximum milk production. I recently found out they produce colostrum for the first 2 weeks so the milk wouldn't be good for human consumption.....


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## Roll farms (Sep 3, 2009)

I have to join the choir here, and say it's MUCH easier on everyone if you pull the kid(s) right away.  

Much easier for the kid and mom to forget about eachother if they've never met.  
MUCH easier to get the kids to take a bottle right away than it is to switch them over later.

I bottle feed newborns w/in 1-2 hrs of birth (faster if I have help), then they're fed 3x a day until weaning.   Only the rare weak kid gets fed more often than that.

Between myself, my husband, and our daughter, we manage to feed them at a fairly regular schedule...with our jobs and her school included.
It's usually 7-8 am, then 1-2 pm, then again at 8 or 9 pm....later if I don't have to get up early for work.

When people tell me it's cruel to take the babies, I point out that it's much harder on them if they're together for 2-3 mos and THEN get seperated when you sell the kids.

We started 55 kids last year...every one took a bottle easy.


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## Beekissed (Sep 4, 2009)

It sounds like your hubby is speaking from a commercial point of view and you are speaking from a "we only have a few goats here" point of view.  If your aim is milk production and sale of offspring for profit, I would say that the other posts, and your husband, are correct.

If, on the other hand, you are keeping these goats for a little milk for the family and sale of offspring to offset feed and other expenses...then I would say that _you_ are correct.  

As with any baby, mother's milk and attention is the healthiest and most natural way to go if you are wanted contented, healthy animals.  It would suit your busy lifestyle more and you won't have to worry as much about digestive problems such as scours, bloat, etc. 

You could do as some do and let the kids suckle for a few weeks before you start milking.  Keep babies separate from the doe at night and take morning milk.  Let them have her all day and right before bedtime.  This works well for many families and results in nice fat weanlings for sale.  After they are weaned, all the milk can be used for the family until it's time to dry off.  

There are ways of weaning that are not as traumatic as the traditional cold turkey type weanings that won't stress your goats as much.  I know this article is mainly about cattle but it can be implemented for any weanlings on pasture:

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Livestock/FenceLineWeaning/index.html


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## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

Does the doe have a disease, like CAE, Johnes, or CL?
That is the primary reason people pull the kids at birth.
You do not have to pull them to milk the goat or to make the kids friendly.
Otherwise, the dam raises them. Dam raised kids are the way to go in my book.

I am one to go against pulling the kids at birth unless you absolutely have to. Bottle babies do have a harder time and they just don't grow out the same. It takes them a year to catch up to normal weight. Bottle babies are brats and generally grow up to be brats.
Bottle babies think YOU are their momma. You have to get up every 2-3 hours during the night for the first week.
Bottle feeding is a TON of work and mentally it can drain the human(especially when you think they are cute and need their momma, who would be you!!) 
Did you see my avatar? That would be my first bottle baby in 13 years of having goats and I pray to the good lord that will be the last!!


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## Roll farms (Sep 4, 2009)

> Bottle babies do have a harder time and they just don't grow out the same. It takes them a year to catch up to normal weight.


That's not necessarily accurate.  I have a pasture full of FAT does, all were bottle babies.  It depends on your methods.  

Several of our meat-breed kids get GCH and RGCH (raised elsewhere).
Underweight wethers wouldn't place well.

As to the brat part....I like my goats attentive, funny, loving, in the way.  
Beats the heck out of chasing the truly wild ones.  I like them annoying.
To each his own.

I've also never fed a bottle baby in the middle of the night....ever.  They get fed before I go to bed and again when I get up.

Our nubian kids avg. 6-7#, boers avg. 8-9#, and boer x kiko avg. 11#.
Big healthy kids from the start help a lot.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

"That's not necessarily accurate.  I have a pasture full of FAT does, all were bottle babies.  It depends on your methods."

Yes, I agree. Here, I have tracked the growing weights of all dam raised kids, and found that my (6 1/2 # pygmy at birth!), just did not measure up during the first 8 months. Of course I did not feed her her mothers milk.....  I fed her half/half and still was not able to put on the baby weight I like to see. Her prior year siblings whom were dam raised were remarkably much nicer and grew out better than the curve compared to other dams/w kids.
Bottle babies will/can catch up,...they just don't grow at the same rates.

Roll, have you been charting your dam raised kids to compare? I would be interested to learn of a better way..... or a trick or secret to success?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Does the doe have a disease, like CAE, Johnes, or CL?
> That is the primary reason people pull the kids at birth.


That's not true..  Most folks I know who pull at birth do so because they want the kids to be bonded to them, not to their goat-mama, and because they want to begin milking the doe immediately.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> You do not have to pull them to milk the goat or to make the kids friendly.


I can vouch for that..  We have dam-raised and bottle-raised kids who are all equally sweet.  



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Otherwise, the dam raises them. Dam raised kids are the way to go in my book.
> 
> I am one to go against pulling the kids at birth unless you absolutely have to. Bottle babies do have a harder time and they just don't grow out the same. It takes them a year to catch up to normal weight.


I disagree 100% here..  Bottle babies get a measured amount of milk on a regular schedule which, in my experience, tends them toward a more consistent growth pattern.  Whereas, in dam-raised kids, you might get one that knocks the other(s) out of the way and wind up with one big kid and one runty kid..



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Bottle babies are brats and generally grow up to be brats.
> Bottle babies think YOU are their momma.


Depends on how you look at it...  Yes, they think you're mama, but that doesn't necessarily make them 'brats'..  Personally, I think it makes them really friendly.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> You have to get up every 2-3 hours during the night for the first week.


No, you don't..  While 4x/day feedings are probably optimal, I've raised several from birth on 3x/day because that's what I could manage.  I also cut them down to 2x/day as soon as I possibly can.  Never been a problem.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Bottle feeding is a TON of work and mentally it can drain the human(especially when you think they are cute and need their momma, who would be you!!)


Yes...it's a lot of work.  

Bear in mind, though, that the OP wasn't getting opinions on dam-raised vs. bottle-raised.....she was asking about snatch-rearing vs. letting the kids nurse a week and then pulling them.  

Clearly, she's planning to bottle raise either way.  I think that's why you have so many people advocating that she snatch-rear, because it's just SO MUCH EASIER to do it from birth than to try to switch a kid to a bottle.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Did you see my avatar? That would be my first bottle baby in 13 years of having goats and I pray to the good lord that will be the last!!




That's quite an accomplishment!  I've bottle raised more than I planned to bottle raise.....  :/


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## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

Again, just my opinion on this. Good to hear things work out well for others. I'm not saying it's the end of the world to do the bottle kids, I'm just saying there is a pretty good difference between dam/bottle raised kids.

Yes, some people love the bottle kids, they do act differently, which is cute in a way, but mine reminds me of one of my own children and to me, it's a nightmare!! I have 4 "human" kids now( I add the goat in to the # now), and that's more than plenty wanting me/expecting of me all the time! LOL. Pulls at the apron more than I like. My bottle baby believes she is human and would rather contribute to a human dynamic. It breaks my heart to see that, I can pull a tear right now thinking about her.

cm, yes I'm proud to say I never did have to bottle feed!!! From where I come from, if you have to bottle raise, that means there is something wrong in the herd.  Most of my dams have been excellent mothers and have always raised beautiful healthy kids.

I was ashamed as a herd keeper to say that I had to raise this little baby due to the doe having a uterine rupture while giving birth.


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## Roll farms (Sep 4, 2009)

> Roll, have you been charting your dam raised kids to compare? I would be interested to learn of a better way..... or a trick or secret to success?


ALL my kids are bottle raised.  Started that for CAE prevention. 
Dairy breeders are big on it, and when I started there wasn't a vet around who had a clue where to send CAE tests in...seriously...I had one draw samples to send in, and 6 mos. later they sent me a refund check because they never DID send the samples in for testing.

The first question I always got from dairy goat buyers was, "Are you CAE free or do you bottle raise on past. milk?"   I quickly surmised that if I wanted to sell kids to 'serious' dairy folks, bottle raising them was the way to go....

NOW my vet can test them, but...we have some CL positive does and the only way my conscience will let me sell kids is if I catch every one at birth and bottle raise them in a 'clean' barn until they sell.

I have no choice...I bottle raise, or I kill 15 or so beautiful does and start over.

I use straight goat milk (pastuerized, of course) unless there's a shortage, then I use whole Vitamin D milk to make the goat's milk go further.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

Ahhh, okay, you're using goats milk! I follow ya now.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 4, 2009)

Wouldn't goats milk be the first choice in feeding the kids? This is the first year I have used the powdered stuff for alpacas. I have to say it has worked fine and the weight gain has been fine but my first preference is actual goat milk. You do have to make sure that the powdered is completely mixed or you will have problems. I put it in my blender every time before I gave it to a cria.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 4, 2009)

Roll farms, may I ask why you pastuerize? I haven't ever pasteurized mine and was wondering the necessity? Not saying wrong or right, just why?


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## Roll farms (Sep 4, 2009)

> Roll farms, may I ask why you pastuerize?


For CAE prevention...Here's a linkie or two.

http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/clerk/logan/index.php
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cae/cae-waddl.shtml


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## goat lady (Sep 4, 2009)

So I am gathering that is a matter of opinion to pull right away or wait a week or two.  I am home all day and out several times collecting eggs and just checking on everyone. My human kids are grown and one of them left for college and left me with two bottle babies. So I take care of them. But we have not had a new baby that we took right off the doe and started on the bottle. I have one doe that is due soon and one in Nov. I know I can't keep every little one that I have so I was just wondering what would be best on the momma and the kid if I should pull them right away or wait a week or two.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 4, 2009)

Unless you leave the kid on mom until SHE weans it, there will be some hurt feelings for all concerned. In my experience, the longer the wait the more traumatic it is. If mom and baby never have a chance to bond with each other there is not as much separation anxiety....


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## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

Yes, goat milk would be the best for a bottle baby in my opinion.

Yes,  to me, if you were going to pull, you would want to pull the kid at birth. That would avoid any of the bonding the kid/dam would have. 
If you let them bond, then pull, the baby/dam would be upset and the baby would have a hard time latching on to the bottle.

I have heard of people supplementing w/bottle while leaving the kid on the doe.  If supplementing, I would start that min-hour after born as well.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

We tried supplementing one of triplets once, at four weeks old.  Partly because we thought the mama was going to run out before they got to 8 weeks (which she didn't...not even close, but that's another story) and partly because the doe we were milking was flat layin' it down and we had more milk than you could shake a big crooked stick at.

Anyhow, first we tried doeling #1...she was having NO PART OF IT.  She slobbered up the nipple and the milk got cold, so we ditched it.

Next feeding, we tried doeling #2...she also wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with that bottle..  And, again...slobber, cold milk, ditched it.

Next time, we tried the buckling...he was like "Hey, what the heck is that!  Get that thing outta my ohheythatswarmmilknomnomnomnonom..." and scrambled for bottles with the other bottle babies from that point on.

The hell of it was, he would take a 24oz bottle while his sisters were working their mama over like a speedbag, and once he had that down, he'd run straight over and bounce one of them outta the way to strip her clean.



That, however, is something I'd consider to be a TOTAL FLUKE, at best....getting a kid to take a bottle once it's used to a teat is widely regarded as an exercise in frustration.


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## cyanne (Sep 10, 2009)

If the choice is snatch at birth or wait and then pull the kid I guess my vote goes for taking the kid right away to minimize the stress and make it easier to bottle train.

I would add, though that you want to take into consideration how much milk you actually need and how much time and hassle you want to deal with. 

I decided to go with leaving the kids on my does because I just couldn't imagine finding the time to bottle feed kids.  I went with the method described on the Fiasco Farms website where you leave the kids with mom for 2 wks (which was no loss because the milk still has yucky colostrum in it for up to 2 wks anyway), then start penning them up separately at night and milking the doe in the morning before putting them all back together.  

I found that, with this method, I had more than enough milk for us and it saved me the hassle of bottle feeding.  The doe increases her production to meet demand so I just considered the kids to be helping me out with the evening milking.  Letting the mom raise her own kids and have that bond with them was just sort of a little bonus and I enjoyed watching them play and interact.

As for the ideas that bottle babies are more tame, after having a bottle raised buck around for a little while (we sold him because he was such a pest) I decided that there was such a thing as *too* friendly.  I just make sure to spend lots of time with the kids, giving them positive attention to make friends from early on.

Now, if your family needs more milk on a daily basis than the doe can provide in 12 hours and you have the time and patience to bottle raise, then I guess the preferable way to do it would be to pull right away and start the bottle before they get used to nursing and develop the bond with their mother.  Probably less traumatic all around.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

IF I still had dairy goats I would pull kids at birth and bottle feed pasturized colostrum and milk. However, the only reason I would go that route is to increase and regulate the length of lactation, because I would still annually test for CAE. IF I was working full time, milking twice a day, and not being home to bottle feed many times a day, I would have to accept that some kids might not make it on my schedule, it would be a fact of life. So to answer the original question, pulling kids is a personal choice that needs to be made according to your lifestyle and time constraints. Pulling for some is the right thing too do, and for others, dam raising is the best.


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## username taken (Sep 11, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> That, however, is something I'd consider to be a TOTAL FLUKE, at best....getting a kid to take a bottle once it's used to a teat is widely regarded as an exercise in frustration.


cmj, I completely agree with you; but I have to lol because I've got a FLUKE kid here, a 5 wk old angora kid; I took her off mum this morning for a petting zoo show, and this afternoon and evening she guzzled a bottle! Funny lil girl


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## bbredmom (Sep 17, 2009)

cyanne said:
			
		

> If the choice is snatch at birth or wait and then pull the kid I guess my vote goes for taking the kid right away to minimize the stress and make it easier to bottle train.
> 
> I would add, though that you want to take into consideration how much milk you actually need and how much time and hassle you want to deal with.
> 
> ...


Sorry I've been away! My notification about the thread got eaten by the spammonster....

I think this is what we have decided to do-keep them on momma for a week or so, then pen separately at night, milk, and then put back together. When I pointed out there were only TWO humans in the house to drink and process all that milk, from an alpine and a sannen nonetheless, he started to come around. And we only have five goats, all rescues, who are pets, lawnmowers, and entertainment! Definitely not in it for the money....

And knock on wood, I've never had anything but single births, from any of my does.

And my dam raised babies are just as bratty as any bottle raised I've ever met. Especially if there are graham crackers in my pocket!

Now if the dang does would just drop me some babies! I swear, they do it on pupose....bag up, then deflate, bag up, then deflate, form hallows, and then fill back out, loosen ligaments, and then tighten!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

WHY DO I HAVE GOATS!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 17, 2009)

Let me know when you figure that last part out.  Some days, I can't help but ask myself the same question.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 17, 2009)

Milking once a day for milk for yourselves sounds very reasonable plus with work schedules and everything is certainly doable. Sounds like a great plan. Plus making it easier on yourselves not to have to bottle feed!


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## bbredmom (Feb 2, 2010)

Soooooo.....of course it didn't work out as planned.

January 8th was the coldest day in 25 years in Arkansas. Future Husband went out to the barn to check the does, and next thing I hear are two screaming baby kids. Momma had birthed them, half cleaned them, and was completely ignoring them. It was 14F at this point, no way they could stay in the barn, even with the heat lamps they were just too little. 

I told him to go on to work ( last week of a construction job you dont want to miss), I'd stay home warm them up and try and get momma to nurse. She'd been a great mom last year (of course, she popped in february during 60F temps..) so I thought it be no problem. Got them all bundled on the heating pad, their temp when I started was around 95, too cold!

Finally got the bigger of the two boys up to temp and screaming for milk. Both had gotten too quiet and limp for me up to this point. I also had no car, so I called my dad and asked him to run to tractor supply, buy more heat lamps and colostrum replacer just in case.

Took little man out uber bundled in my coat. It was now about and hour later, sun was up, it was all of 19F. Etta was just in the birthing pen, chewing hay, drinking. She's apparently passed and eaten the afterbirth already. I pinched the baby to make him scream more, and she immediately started screaming back. Good Sign!

I tried for fiften minutes to get her to nurse. She had NO interest. He wanted to, he would latch on, but she would immediately kick and butt him away, even getting violent with me. At this point I knew they needed colostrum so I said screw it, and milked out as much as I could into a bottle. 

As I'm finishing up I hear this faint "baaaa". I think its the wind or the baby boy, so I ignore it. Again, now in a chorus "BAAAAAAAA!!!!"

You've gotta be kidding me.

Calamity dropped twins as well, and didn't even clean them. At this point, my calm facade dropped, I said Many bad words, snatched up the older boy, the twins (who were even smaller!), shoved them into my jacket, snatched clamity and threw her into the birthing pen with Etta, and ran into the house. It was now freezing rain at this point. 

I got on the phone with my dad, who had run to walmart to buy dog sweaters. I told him to get  two more, and to hurry home!

I then called Joshua, who didn't answer, and said "So, yeah, everything just went to hell. Two more rejected babies, Calamity hasn't dropped her udder at all, Etta, just almost killed me and the baby, I need you to come home now. PLEASE!!!"

So imagine this, folks. Here I am, no transportation, frozen pipes, four screaming cold goat kids, two mothers with little to now interest in cleaning or feeding them, and I've never babysat much less bottle fed anything before.

I took what little colostrum I got out of etta, mixed it with the replacer and some butter milk, and the babies chugged down like there was no tomorrow. Dad got home sooner, his job was to hold the babies while I set them up a dog kennel in the house with the heating pad and heaters (I dont have central HVAC). Joshua gets home and immediately tries to go milk the moms. He grew up on a goat farm, I figured he would have more luck than me. Nope, there was nothing in Calamity, and next to nothing in Etta.

So between the hours of 5:30 and noon, I had four babies born and no mommas to feed them. by 1:00, everything was under control.

We kept trying every day for the next week to get the mommas to feed, but to no avail. After talking to my friend Allison the goat breeder and reading about survival methods of mammals from Grad School, I think it was just too damn cold. They didn't want to give up the calories, they knew the babies probably wouldn't make it anyway, so its better to let them die than risk themselves dieing.

They are now getting bottle fed twice a day, are happy, healthy babies. We are getting 3-4 cups per milking, so 6-8 cups a day, which we supplement with SavAKid. I've had no scours or problems except I've got three pocket bucks and a bossy nanny in training.

So there ya go. And here are videos for your viewing pleasure. These are from their first week of growth. The sweater video is the first day it was warm enough for them to be outside, and they've been ouside for the last two weeks without any problems. The moms still dont like them, the males are actually very sweet and protective. My farm is soooo backwards.

Oh, and their names are 

Zeus







Poseidon






Ares






And Athena






All those pics are from that first day after we got them fed, clean and warm.


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## cyanne (Feb 2, 2010)

Do you play Starfleet Commander on facebook by any chance?  Just wondering since all of the kids names are names of ships in game (as well as greek Gods, of course).

Very cute kids, btw, sorry to hear that the kidding went so badly!


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 2, 2010)

I loved your videos!  Poor Oscar, "Bulldozer" wouldn't leave him alone.  Your babies are too cute.  Sorry it didn't go as planned, but you've got some good little kids there!


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## bbredmom (Feb 2, 2010)

cyanne said:
			
		

> Do you play Starfleet Commander on facebook by any chance?  Just wondering since all of the kids names are names of ships in game (as well as greek Gods, of course).
> 
> Very cute kids, btw, sorry to hear that the kidding went so badly!


LOL, no the names came from the video game God of War. We were playing it the night before the kids were born. We needed names, stat, and those were easy to remember.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 2, 2010)

Congratulations! The goats are adorable and look like they are doing very well.


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## Just Jayne (Jun 27, 2010)

Hello - I am wondering if there is a device or technique that I could use to keep the kids from getting to the mama goat's udder. I do not want to separate everyone from eachother - just keep the kids from sucking. Also, how much are milk-feld wethers going for these days? I have a 10-week old wether who is huge and my husband will not let us "use" him in our kitchen.


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## chandasue (Jun 27, 2010)

Check out this post:
http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5052
She taped the teats with bandage tape and it seems to be working.


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