# Feeding Goats Corn



## jodief100 (Jan 11, 2011)

When I spoke with Dr. Pinkerton (The Goat Man) several years ago, he recommended feeding does 1 lb of corn per day in the last month of gestation to prevent Pregnancy Toxemia.  So I fed my goats corn in addition to the pelleted grain for years.  

Then I joined here and most everyone has said that their experience is that corn is BAD for goats and not to feed it to goats.

Now in this months edition of Goat Rancher there is an article by Dr. Dave Sparks reiterating that you should feed 1 lb of corn to does per day in the last month of gestation and that it almost completely prevents pregnancy toxemia.  

So I am considering going back to feeding corn, at least to my pregnant does.  

I understand the argument against feeding to buck because of UC.  What could the downside be to feeding pregnant does?  I lost one my first year to pregnancy toxemia.


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## helmstead (Jan 11, 2011)

Corn will cause acidosis in does.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 11, 2011)

Instead of feeding straight corn I prefer to feed a balanced ration, usually right around a lb per head per day.  

But I'm not exactly sure why people are afraid of corn either, unless they're just afraid of the misuse of corn and overfeeding.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jan 11, 2011)

The biggest reason why I avoid corn is because of GMO's and pesticides. Which I try not to feed my goats something I wouldn't eat. I avoid GMO's as much as possible, and Organic corn is too expensive to feed my goats. I can get local barley and oats for very cheap and they have not been sprayed or genetically modified.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 11, 2011)

I agree with Kate.  Its really has no nutritional value.  Its a cheap filler and its like candy for them...its not really good for them.  Some say its ok..and some say it is'ant.  I dont give mine corn at all.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 11, 2011)

thanks for bringing this up, Jodie. 

a pound seems like a lot. i give a little corn - maybe a handful a day..... but only because we are in the thick of winter here and not to avoid toxemia. 

did either of the articles say WHY it prevents it?


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## helmstead (Jan 11, 2011)

Corn is an inappropriate feed for goats.  The Ca/Ph ratio is WAY off, and it causes acidosis.  All other arguments aside, that should be enough.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 11, 2011)

i guess, helmstead, i would be interested in hearing what she has to share from the articles.


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## helmstead (Jan 11, 2011)

Having not had, in all these years, the first case of toxemia...I don't see the possible benefit.  A well conditioned (but not overconditioned) goat eating an adequate diet in late gestation generally won't have toxemia.  You have to increase feed intake in late gestation - ie add calories - to avoid toxemia.  THEN you have to increase feed during lactation post partem to avoid ketosis.

Clearly the reason corn is being touted is that it does the 'trick' by increasing caloric intake.  However, corn is BAD FOR GOATS...so why not use a quality alfalfa, a touch of Calf Manna...even just an increase in regular feed?


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## jodief100 (Jan 11, 2011)

If I remember correctly, Dr. Pinkerton explained it that corn is highly dense energy.  It gives a way to easily boost energy in a pregnant doe.

The article by Dr. Sparks states that Toxemia is caused by the pregnant doe's rumen being compressed and therefor unable to process enough nutrition to support both the doe and her growing fetuses.  The doe's body then metabolizes fat and toxic ketones are produced as a result.  Corn is a high energy food that can boost the caloric intake enough to compensate.  

I understand the Ca/Ph ratio is way off, thus increasing the risk of UC.  I just think that it might be worth taking that risk to prevent the more likely scenario of pregnancy toxemia.  

I am still debating which is why I opened the question.  Does anyone know what the real risk of UC in does is?  My understanding is it is much rarer than in bucks due to the shorter urethra.

I highly respect both Dr. Pinkerton and Dr Spark's opinions.  They both have done considerable research in goats.  I just really want to hear real facts on both sides.   

I am not concerned about GMO or organic, I just want what is best for my goats.  I am certain that GMO or non organic feed won't kill them, but toxemia will.


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## jodief100 (Jan 11, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Clearly the reason corn is being touted is that it does the 'trick' by increasing caloric intake.  However, corn is BAD FOR GOATS...so why not use a quality alfalfa, a touch of Calf Manna...even just an increase in regular feed?


Cost- pure alfalfa is twice the cost of mix around here.  Corn is $0.09 / lb and Calf Manna is $0.48/lb.  Sometimes things cannot always be done in the "ideal" fashion. 

I think it is pretty clear the corn is a compromise.  I want to understand better the trade offs.


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## helmstead (Jan 11, 2011)

Look into acidosis and hypocalcaemia...both of which can be caused by corn...and weigh the risks.

I don't think toxemia is at all due to rumen compression.  It happens right when the fetuses ask for quick growth.  Multiple fetuses and underconditioned dams increase the risk.  If the dam isn't getting a dense enough calorie intake from her feed, she metabolizes fat instead, releasing ketones.

UC isn't a huge concern for does.  It would take large large crystals to stop them up.  It has been hypothesized that many does have UC...and never show symptoms.

The real concern with corn are the acidosis and hypocalcaemia.


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## helmstead (Jan 11, 2011)

Alfalfa pellets are $.20 a lb give or take...doesn't have to be a loose hay.  Increasing grain, hmm...mine is $.18 per lb or so.  Calf manna...2 cups to a pound and you feed 1/4 cup per goat per day for my Nigis.


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## mossyStone (Jan 11, 2011)

I use a dry COB Mixed with alfalfa pellets ,Boss   calf mana ( for heavey milkers) and whole grains when i can get them. I dont give grain to my Buck or youngsters. Every one gets free choice alfalfa 24/7 with pasture. I have had no problems with the COB mix....

My milkers usually milk thur 12 to 15 mos before we dry off...


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 11, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Look into acidosis and hypocalcaemia...both of which can be caused by corn...and weigh the risks.
> 
> I don't think toxemia is at all due to rumen compression.  It happens right when the fetuses ask for quick growth.  Multiple fetuses and underconditioned dams increase the risk.  If the dam isn't getting a dense enough calorie intake from her feed, she metabolizes fat instead, releasing ketones.
> 
> ...


Im with you!!  Totally agree.  It is just not the best way!! IMO!!! There are other means that are healthier for your girls!!!  

Goat nutrition cannot be summed up by one Drs article!  Theres alot of info out there...everything Ive ever seen is that its cheap filler and not good for goats!! Heck its junk food filler for our food!!


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jan 11, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> I am not concerned about GMO or organic, I just want what is best for my goats.  I am certain that GMO or non organic feed won't kill them, but toxemia will.


I recently read an article on the real cause of toxemia. It's from something lacking in the diet. I'll see if I can dig it up real quick.

***edited to add: Never mind.... it was on Ketosis. :/*****


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 11, 2011)

Toxemia can definitely be caused by lack of space for the rumen due to large multiple fetuses in addition to just extra demand from growing fetuses.  Often time hay just doesn't provide the nutrients with the space allowed toward the end of gestation.  Overweight does are also at risk.  And MANY people believe the studies that show you shouldn't feed alfalfa prior to parturition due to hypocalcemia.  Now, I'm not sure if you'll have hypocalcemia issues with boers, since they're not typically very heavy producers.  

Corn is a concentrated energy source that can provide enough calories for a doe to get through the last stages of gestation. I would not feed JUST a pound of corn, because corn is good for energy but lacking in other things, especially protein.  I think a balanced ration would be a good way to provide concentrated nutrients instead of just corn.  

It's not just one doctor's article talking about toxemia and ways to feed to prevent it. It's a pretty common husbandry practice.  I've seen sheep affected by toxemia and it's not something that's fun to treat. Often times recovery takes a long time, even after parturition.  Feeding some corn will not harm the does, as long as the person feeding gives time for them to adjust to a dietary change (the same as they would do with ANY diet change).


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 11, 2011)

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> jodief100 said:
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Ketosis is preg. toxemia.     Ketones build up due to the body trying to digest body fat.


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## jodief100 (Jan 11, 2011)

Mine are meat goats, not milk goats, they do not produce as much milk. Hypocalcium is not as big of a concern.  Acidosis is essentially overeating disease correct?  Would the risk be reduced if I fed them smaller amounts several times a day as opposed to once a day?

I am feeding a alfalfa mix hay and Noble Goat mixed with alfalfa pellets.  Most of them having been keeping good condition but a few have been loosing condition in the last week or two.  I have upped the grain intake for those few but they still have been loosing.  

It is not just one article, it is the second time I have heard this recommendation. Both times by experts in the goat industry.  Dr. Pinkerton has been researching and studying goats for over 40 years  and Dr Sparks is a DVM who has worked with and raised goats for over 30 years. 

Though it just occurred to me that both of them work primarily with meat goats.  Maybe this approach will be fine for my Boers and Kikos but not my LaMancha?


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## helmstead (Jan 11, 2011)

I don't believe it has anything to do with milk production.  A goat is a goat is a goat...and toxemia is related to gestation, not milk production.  And hypocalcaemia happens in all goats, too, not just dairy goats.

I know, there are producers who feed corn and haven't had issues.  Or if they had issues, they didn't know what they were looking at.  

I'm just pointing out what I know based on my research on this.  At the end of the day, they're your goats and if you want to try it based on what you have found it's your decision.

No, acidosis isn't overeating disease (that's enterotoxemia caused by bacteria).  Acidosis is either the sudden or chronic Ph imbalance of the rumen, leading to a host of secondary problems and even death.  High starch and sugar diets lead to acidosis (ie, diets rich in corn).


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 11, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> High starch and sugar diets lead to acidosis (ie, diets rich in corn).


Starch and sugars pack on fat...because it is metabolized that way...and that what you dont want at the end of the pregnacy!  In turn too fat can cause toxiemia issues.

People do it.....I prefer not to..and everything Ive read more and more about, its just not the best way!  Its not a good goat feed.  

I slow down grain for the first three months...and at 3 mos I add more grain when the kids are growing the most and they needs to stay balanced.  

It dos'nt have to be fancy or expensive feeds to keep a goats healthy. Just well balanced!!!  

But keep reading.  I know the people you quoted are respectable people and well educated.  But you have to keep reading and fiqure out what works best for you!!!

Good luck Jodief!! You will find what works best for you!!!   

PS Thanks for the smilys!!


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## rebelINny (Jan 11, 2011)

I do not know much about this subject but there is a 900 head working dairy in our area and we know that they feed all their milking does corn silage daily as well as hay and such. We also bought our first two goats from a woman that swore by mixing a 50lb bag of cracked corn with a 50lb bag of grain that it helped her goats stay conditioned and not skinny. Another person feeds it all winter to his rabbits (I know not a goat but the same rule applies) because it generates heat during the cold season. We give our girls just a tad with their grain mixed in. Just enough to help warm them when it is so cold.


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## Ariel301 (Jan 12, 2011)

I feed cracked corn to my does. *runs for cover and hides*

There's a very low selection of feed available in this area, and most of what there is is very costly and often out of stock. We have corn, chicken scratch, and sweet feed available here, that's about it. Calf-manna costs a dollar a pound, too high to feed very much of that. Sweet feed is $13 a bag while corn is $7 a bag. Corn is cheap and always available. You make do with what you've got. 

A small amount of corn in the diet, say a pound or so per day, introduced gradually, won't cause acidosis. It takes a large volume of corn to do that, especially if it is eaten suddenly when the animal is not used to eating it. 

As for avoiding GMOs...unless you're feeding something else that is organic and even if your feed is corn-free (most commercial packaged feeds are NOT corn-free, and have corn as a major ingredient) you're not avoiding GMOs. Wheat and soy are modified as much as corn. The only way to avoid this issue is to buy organic (expensive and sometimes hard to find) or to buy from a local farmer you can trust and mix your own. For many people, neither one is an option, sadly. 

Corn is not a balanced diet by itself, I absolutely agree. I would never feed more than a pound or two to a goat at a time, and I mix it with other things when I can get them. My alfalfa has enough calcium in it to counteract the ratio in the corn, and my mineral contains extra calcium anyway. I have several older does and heavy milkers who have trouble maintaining weight through the milking season, and corn is a fast, cheap way to keep them from becoming living skeletons.

Corn is not an empty filler, it DOES have some nutritional value, even if it is not the best there is. It doesn't have much in the way of protein or calcium, which are both important nutrients for goats, but it does have fat and carbs, and sometimes you need fat and carbs.


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## Roll farms (Jan 12, 2011)

The lady I bought my first Nubian goats off of, 15 yrs ago, fed her goats corn and hay and that was it.  They were big, healthy does who had nice babies.  Monkey see, Monkey do....So....that's all I fed mine.

Once we got horses and llamas I started 'custom mixing' my own blend of feed...still had a lot of corn in it....but everyone did fine.

These were all just 'pets'...and before the internet was available here in the sticks....I was doing what the other producers I bought off of suggested, and since it was working....I saw no reason to learn more or try other things.

When I decided to become a 'full time' goat / chicken farmer 8 yrs ago, I joined message boards and bought books and subscribed to several different magazines...read a lot...learned a lot....

I read all the reasons why you *shouldn't* give goats corn....made sense to not give it to the boys...so I stopped.   
For every opinion not to give corn, I could find one that said it was ok.

I still feed corn to my does / older doelings.  We mix 15-20% corn in summer, and 35% in winter...changes made gradually, to prevent acidosis.  As the temps go down, the % of corn goes up.
I add roughly 10% BOSS and the balance is 16% sweet feed.
We mix / store feed in a big freezer.  Once the layers of corn, BOSS, and sweet feed are in, I top dress w/ Goat Power mineral and powdered probiotic.

I occasionally use calf manna on the stand for the heavier producing does who need better condition.

There is, of course, free choice mineral in all pens.

Mind, our main pen of goats is usually around 15 animals (the rest being in breeding pens or kid pens or the buck pen) and they share 2 2-quart scoops of that...it's not like they're getting a ton of grain ea.  
They get free-choice hay for the bulk of the diet.

Does in the kidding pens get probably 1/2 to 1 cup per day, plus hay.

Does that we milk get 'all they can eat' while on the stand...usually the more they eat, the more milk I get...but I milk fast. 

Kids and bucks get Noble goat w/ boss and the same top dress....and hay.

It may not be for everyone, and if you feel your reasons are well-researched and your current non-corn diet works for you, wonderful...
I have 15 yrs of proof that it hasn't hurt my girls yet.  Believe me, if I thought it was bad for them, or saw a reason to change it, I WOULD.

Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't feed an ALL corn diet, but some corn is fine, and I feel it helps my girls maintain condition during the cold winter.  They don't put on fat, they burn it staying warm.

Jodie, I would advise that if you elect to add corn, do it gradually to prevent any issues....but of course you know not to make sudden diet changes.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 12, 2011)

jodie,

my neighbors have meat goats and they had to call their vet out yesterday as one of their preg does was poorly. the vet said she may have a bit of an infection and ketosis. (the vet left rx's and instructions to treat)

the big news is... the vet said she is seeing this alot this winter. not centralized in one area but wildly spread in our county and others. she thought was that many of the goats had a very hard summer and this is one of the fall out issues. 

not sure if this helps or not (i dont think you are in ohio) but its interesting that this came up for you too. i'm glad you brought it up especially in light of my chat with my neighbors - we should all be on the lookout. 

and we totally understand that you have to work with what you have. 2 well respected herd owners around here feed corn (not so much) especially in the winter. i've started giving BOSS and a little sweet feed in addition to their ration. we are in an unusually long cold period and just keeping warm is a challenge. 

you'll figure out what is best for your goaties and we'll be eager to hear how this goes for you.

Roll probably has the best advice which is, if you choose to feed corn start small and work up.

Ariel301 - please come out from under the table, you dont have to hide.


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## helmstead (Jan 12, 2011)

ohiofarmgirl said:
			
		

> Ariel301 - please come out from under the table, you dont have to hide.


LOL Indeed!  The one true fact about goats is if you ask 10 people the same question, you'll likely get 10 different answers!


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## jodief100 (Jan 12, 2011)

Ohiofarmgirl,
Thanks for the info.  I am not in Ohio but might as well be.  I am 30 minutes south of the Ohio River in Northern Kentucky.  We are essentially a bedroom community to Cincinnati.  I work in Ohio.  We had a very dry, summer and the goats are not getting out right now to browse as much as I would like because of the snow. I added BOSS and upped the grain gradually starting about mid-November but a few are still losing condition. Others are getting fat.  

The article did mention that toxemia is seen much less frequently in goats that forage and browse than in ones who are fed hay and grain.  With all the snow the goats are not leaving the barn right now.  The door is open but they are staying put. I noticed lots of BIG paw prints in the snow out in the field but no little hoof prints.  The Pys are loving this weather.   

I am going to try and contact Dr Sparks and/or Dr Pinkerton and see if they have any info on increased incidence of acidosis and hypocalcium when feeding corn. 

The whole thing may be trade off but a huge decrease in the chance of toxemia may be worth the risk of a slight increase in the risk of something else.  I would like some numbers to show what the increased likelihood is....


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 12, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> ohiofarmgirl said:
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I disagree. You'll probably get at least 15 answers.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 12, 2011)

> I am going to try and contact Dr Sparks and/or Dr Pinkerton and see if they have any info on increased incidence of acidosis and hypocalcium when feeding corn.


great work! let us know what you find out. 

and yep sounds like its a trade off. ugh. goats = drive us crazy


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 12, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> When I spoke with Dr. Pinkerton (The Goat Man) several years ago, he recommended feeding does 1 lb of corn per day in the last month of gestation to prevent Pregnancy Toxemia.  So I fed my goats corn in addition to the pelleted grain for years.
> 
> Then I joined here and most everyone has said that their experience is that corn is BAD for goats and not to feed it to goats.
> 
> ...


Was he definitely saying 1 lb of corn IN ADDITION to pelleted ration or just 1 lb of corn in addition to hay?  

The last month of gestation is usually when grain would be added to keep enough calories in the doe to prevent ketosis and support fetal growth.  It makes more sense to me if he's saying 1 lb of corn (or grain/concentrate/pellets/ect.) in addition to hay to prevent toxemia rather than 1 lb of corn PLUS your pelleted ration in addition to hay.  The point seems to be getting enough calories in them when kids are restricting rumen expansion, right?  If commercial concentrates are your calorie dense food of choice then you're already doing that...


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## warthog (Jan 12, 2011)

Well I am no expert, and most people on here have more experience than I do.

I read all the arguments about corn and Ph balances, because we are in an area where we cannot get goat feed.  I feed horse sweet feed to mine, they don't get a lot and when it is colder I increase it with cracked corn, this is not a cost issue, it's an availability issue.

I am not saying what is right or wrong, just doing what works for me with what is available, and at the end of the day that's what we all have to do.  Good luck


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## Roll farms (Jan 12, 2011)

I am of the opinion he means *just* corn, not corn in addition to some other ration.

Dr. Pink's big on raising goats as cheaply as possible...guess I should say as inexpensively....and most of his research / expertise is in meat goats.

In most of his articles when folks write in asking about their feed mixes, he states something to the effect of, 
"You can feed your goats _____ if you like, but corn is much cheaper."
Paraphrasing, but you get the idea.

In Indiana now, corn is nearly as high as sweet feed, and pelleted feed has went up about 2$ per bag since early fall.  I don't think feeding on the 'cheap' is possible right now.

And we had an awesome corn harvest this year.

I blame ethanol.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 12, 2011)

Ok, I see.  So it's possible it's not corn specifically he's suggesting will prevent toxemia, but any concentrate and corn happens to be the most cost effective (in his opinion.)


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## chandasue (Jan 12, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I blame ethanol.


  Oh I could say something here but 
LMAO


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 12, 2011)

> In Indiana now, corn is nearly as high as sweet feed, and pelleted feed has went up about 2$ per bag since early fall.  I don't think feeding on the 'cheap' is possible right now.


our prices went out $2 a bag also - wow!


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## helmstead (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm a feed dealer and yeah...its ethanol.  The farmers get 'credits', tax breaks and better lot prices selling to ethanol manufactures.


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