# Spreading manure



## Cindy in SD (Nov 5, 2018)

When you have cows, you have lots of poo. I knew this when I decided I had to have them of course, but the magnitude of the thing somehow eluded me...

So, what do I do about it? Harrow it in? Will spreading it around make the grass inedible to the cows? I just got them this fall (yes, I know... stupid time to buy cows, but I HAD to have them. They’re diabolically cute. It’s not my fault.)




 
I have chickens too, but possibly not quite enough of them... 17, half grown and still confined to their run. I was hoping the wild turkeys that were hanging around might help me out, but no. It’s probably too chilly/cold for yummy fly larvae to tempt them, and then soon it was hunting season so they all melted away into the deep woods. Maybe they’ll come back. They seemed fascinated with my chickens.

Should I leave the cow poo until they stop grazing and then harrow it? Should I wait until spring? Or do I spread it at all? Maybe by the time the girls get around the whole place in their progressive grazing foodie tour it will have lost the ick factor for them? I’m reading Salad Bar Beef, but so far it’s a bit light on the details.


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## animalmom (Nov 5, 2018)

Those aren't spoiled wee cows now are they?


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## farmerjan (Nov 5, 2018)

Okay, got a bunch of questions.  First, how much space/acreage/land do they have to graze/run on?  Is most of the manure because you are feeding in one spot?  Is their grazing area such that you are going to be subdividing into lots to practice rotational type grazing?  What do you consider alot of manure?  What is the condition of the ground they are on and if divided up, will any of it be used as hay growing? 

There are some ""rules and regulations"" in this day and age for spreading manure.  Not that we all follow them.... but you need to be aware in case there is any complaints of any kind.  Manure cannot be spread within a certain # of feet from any stream or body of water, and can only be spread while there is an "actively growing crop" so the nutrients do not leach down through and get into the ground water.  Okay,  any day that it gets above 45 or 50 can be considered warm enough for an actively growing crop of grass or rye or something.  What it was implemented for was to stop farmers from going out and spreading on a snow covered field so it just sat there and then as the snow melted it ran off with the snow melt.  Plus probably some aesthetics of looking as manure covered snow (LOL).
All that aside, if manure builds up with the proper amount of straw/hay/bedding mixed it, it makes a type of "compost" that will actually be a little warmer for the animals to lay on in the cold.  As long as it isn't soggy wet muddy.
Cows will avoid grass that has had fresh manure spread on it.  If spread on a hayfield as early in the spring as possible, there doesn't seem to be any adverse effect by the time 1st cutting is made  6-8 weeks later. Or spread again for a 2nd cutting crop.  In pastures, if it is not spread or dragged, then they will often avoid it for that growing season.  If it is dragged, say as soon as you rotate them into the next paddock, then by the time they get rotated back it is usually a moot point because the dung beetles and the earthworms and all the microbes will have broken it down into usable fertilizer.  Providing you get some moisture.
I am assuming that you are wanting the chickens and/or turkeys to help spread it.  They will, but only if they can find insects/larvae to go after.  And they only spread it for a foot or two in any direction.  Rotational grazing also helps that as you spread the manure throughout the field, then get them off and it will become the fertilizer.  If they are basically grass fed, then  there will be few/no grains for them to scratch around for and it will be more liquid and will break down faster anyway.

The only time you actually harrow in manure is on a barren plowed or no til type field.  Pastures and hay ground would only get a drag at most or you will be "digging up" and disturbing the crop/grass or whatever.  But then some do call it a drag harrow....


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## greybeard (Nov 5, 2018)

I drag the piles down most years, about once/month and after the first time it gets rain, the cows don't avoid any particular area other than the few piles I missed where green grass is tallest. 
I use an old 10" x 10" pole, cut down to about 10' long, chained behind a tractor.


 

Other things you can use for a drag  is a short length of chain link fence with some weight on the back 1/4th of it, or even an old beat up cattle panel or gate.

Now, back when the govt regs were dictating to the vast herds of millions  of migrating bison where they could poop and couldn't poop, I suppose one had to be careful, but I've never had anyone from the Nanny State come out here and tell me I was doing it wrong.


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 5, 2018)

animalmom said:


> Those aren't spoiled wee cows now are they?


What? Me? Spoil the wee coo beasties???


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 5, 2018)

farmerjan said:


> Okay, got a bunch of questions.  First, how much space/acreage/land do they have to graze/run on?  Is most of the manure because you are feeding in one spot?  Is their grazing area such that you are going to be subdividing into lots to practice rotational type grazing?  What do you consider alot of manure?  What is the condition of the ground they are on and if divided up, will any of it be used as hay growing?
> 
> There are some ""rules and regulations"" in this day and age for spreading manure.  Not that we all follow them.... but you need to be aware in case there is any complaints of any kind.  Manure cannot be spread within a certain # of feet from any stream or body of water, and can only be spread while there is an "actively growing crop" so the nutrients do not leach down through and get into the ground water.  Okay,  any day that it gets above 45 or 50 can be considered warm enough for an actively growing crop of grass or rye or something.  What it was implemented for was to stop farmers from going out and spreading on a snow covered field so it just sat there and then as the snow melted it ran off with the snow melt.  Plus probably some aesthetics of looking as manure covered snow (LOL).
> All that aside, if manure builds up with the proper amount of straw/hay/bedding mixed it, it makes a type of "compost" that will actually be a little warmer for the animals to lay on in the cold.  As long as it isn't soggy wet muddy.
> ...



Thanks, FarmerJan!

We have 12.5 acres plus a rented pond, all zoned “limited ag,” surrounded by USFS land. The USFS land is “leased” to a rancher for grazing his Black Angus herd in summer. Otherwise no neighbors. We’ve only had the cows since September 8th, so not that much manure yet really... but I can see it’s going to need dealing with. 

I meant a drag harrow; I’ve been looking at them on Amazon. Some are smoothish on both sides; some have a smooth and a toothy side. I’m thinking the latter dual purpose one, since we also have a gravel road to maintain. It’s good to know I can drag the paddocks as soon as the cows and poultry (if they seem interested) are finished with them, then rotate the cattle back over them in the right timing.

I do plan to do rotational/progressive grazing starting in spring once the grass gets a good start. For now I’ve got them fenced into the east 6 acres with free choice hay. It was all kept pretty well-mowed up til they got here, then the very next day after I brought them home we got hammered... the month of unending hail. The hail beat up what grass was left. Nevertheless they’re mostly grazing and doing all right so far.

We don’t have the means to make hay and for three cows plus future calves, it’s probably cheaper to buy it than to tool up. I’m too old to do much scything and bailing. If they can’t keep up with the grass, then maybe we’ll have to cut a little around the more fertile areas. Our place is mostly meadow with a little pine wood in the center and some aspen in the SW edge.

Straw here is costlier than good hay—we’re in western SD—no crops to speak of but beef—so I guess the bedding will be hay and maybe some pine straw. They (two of them anyway) are just sleeping in their shed for the first time. I put the mineral blocks in there to tempt them inside, along with some semi-icky hay to lie on and maybe nibble at if they feel inclined.

We have a springtime drainage across the NE quadrant. I’d like to dig another pond and collect some of that water instead of having it spread out all across the grass, but I’m afraid to even ask about regulations. Anyway the cows will need fencing out of that bit in spring until it dries up, and from around the pond, of course.

I think that probably covers your questions unless I missed something. So it sounds like what I need to do is drag the manure promptly when rotationally grazing and keep their shed and feed/water areas well-bedded. Then, I’ll assume, spread the composted bedding wherever the ground seems to need it?

Thanks again! I really appreciate your help!


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 5, 2018)

greybeard said:


> I drag the piles down most years, about once/month and after the first time it gets rain, the cows don't avoid any particular area other than the few piles I missed where green grass is tallest.
> I use an old 10" x 10" pole, cut down to about 10' long, chained behind a tractor.
> View attachment 54255
> 
> ...


Thanks, Greybeard! That’s a great idea. I’m going to try that as soon as the ground dries up a bit from this most recent rain/snow episode.


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## greybeard (Nov 5, 2018)

Cindy in SD said:


> We have 12.5 acres plus a rented pond, all zoned “limited ag,” surrounded by USFS land. The USFS land is “leased” to a rancher for grazing his Black Angus herd in summer. Otherwise no neighbors. We’ve only had the cows since September 8th, so not that much manure yet really... but I can see it’s going to need dealing with.


My property is surrounded on all sides by US National Forest Land. They don't care where or how often/much cattle poop.


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## farmerjan (Nov 6, 2018)

Thanks for the info.  Yes, you can buy a drag harrow or you can do like @greybeard  said.  Use what you have or can find cheap.  An old set of bedsprings is what so many used around here.  I'm talking the real old timey kind.  But a piece of chain link fence will work to break it up;  or one of the 16 ft welded wire fence panels, like from tractor supply, cut to whatever size you want/need.  We have an old one that has gotten bent up, that we use with a couple of old tires chained behind it and an old log chained on top of the panel for some weight.  A piece of chain link fence, with a little weight to keep in on the ground, will break up the patties.  It will also work for some driveway work...
If your cattle are the highlands I see in the picture, they will like the outside weather more than being inside unless it is really rough.  Their double haircoat is the greatest protection.  They are also known to be very good foragers  so should keep down some of the "brush" more than some breeds of beef cattle that only like to graze.  You can let the manure/bedding build up, then say clean it out in the spring.  Pile it to compost it and it will make great fertilizer for the next year in the garden or the pastures.  
Pine needles will be fine but remember they are very acidic as is the manure that the cattle produce.  You will have to monitor the ph of your soil and probably add lime.  That is something you should do now.  Soil sample and get a baseline of what you are dealing with to start.  Lime takes a little time to get into the soil and bring the ph up.  Usually figure a year after applying lime before you see any real good results.  ANY kind of carbon (bedding, hay, straw, pine needles, leaves) is good, you will just have to amend it so that you can soil that will grow a garden or good grass.


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## greybeard (Nov 6, 2018)

farmerjan said:


> An old set of bedsprings is what so many used around here. I'm talking the real old timey kind.


Yes, they work fine, till they start coming apart and you find springs embedded in your now flat tractor or truck tire....

There's all kinds from the 'store bought' ones to the home made ones. Tire drags are almost free and pretty common here.








And then, there's this.....


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## farmerjan (Nov 6, 2018)

I kept waiting for him to go flying off it....


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## greybeard (Nov 7, 2018)

One can only imagine the amt of dust and dried feces particles that ended up in the tire rider's airway.......


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 7, 2018)

Thanks all. We do have some old cattle panels. I’ll figure a way to use one of those. Maybe strap or chain or wire some posts to it. About adding lime... the grass is good now, but I didn’t realize having cattle on it would make the soil too acid.  Since we are in the middle of the Black Hills national Forest (nearly all pine and spruce) I’m guessing that the grass we have, whatever kinds it is, must be fairly acid tolerant. Or are all grasses more or less similar in regard to the soils they prefer? Sadly, I’ve never been much of a gardener except for a brief stint when I lived in Ohio. I had really quite a good garden there. It had to be the soil and the climate, though. It sure wasn’t me.

Is it worth-while getting a pH tester? Or is it better to just go with litmus paper? I found one called “Gain Express soil pH and moisture meter” at Amazon. (Sorry I can’t figure out how to copy or even see the Amazon link to it; the app keeps coming up and when I try to go there in my browser, that also opens the app. )


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 7, 2018)

greybeard said:


> One can only imagine the amt of dust and dried feces particles that ended up in the tire rider's airway.......


No kidding... well at least he had a dust mask on. I hope he went straight into the truck wash after that! :-o


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## farmerjan (Nov 7, 2018)

Probably you have grass that is tolerant to your soils, but if you keep adding pine or cedar or other types of  acidic bedding, the ph will drop.  If you get a soil sample done, the ph will also come back on that. And if cattle are fairly new to your specific ground, the existing grasses will change as the animals produce manure and the soil changes.  In most cases, if the ph is too low, all the fertilizer in the world won't help, so PH is pretty important.  I have never used a ph test kit, just  what the soil samples said each year.  And most grasses, weeds, and shrubs/brush will evolve over time to tolerate where they are growing... that is why there are different grasses in New England, Va. ,  Ca. and Tx.....


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## greybeard (Nov 7, 2018)

Cindy in SD said:


> Thanks all. We do have some old cattle panels. I’ll figure a way to use one of those. Maybe strap or chain or wire some posts to it. About adding lime... the grass is good now, but I didn’t realize having cattle on it would make the soil too acid.  Since we are in the middle of the Black Hills national Forest (nearly all pine and spruce) I’m guessing that the grass we have, whatever kinds it is, must be fairly acid tolerant. Or are all grasses more or less similar in regard to the soils they prefer? Sadly, I’ve never been much of a gardener except for a brief stint when I lived in Ohio. I had really quite a good garden there. It had to be the soil and the climate, though. It sure wasn’t me.
> 
> Is it worth-while getting a pH tester? Or is it better to just go with litmus paper? I found one called “Gain Express soil pH and moisture meter” at Amazon. (Sorry I can’t figure out how to copy or even see the Amazon link to it; the app keeps coming up and when I try to go there in my browser, that also opens the app. )


You can get a rough idea of your soil by clicking your county at the following link.
https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/surveylist/soils/survey/state/?stateId=SD

Altho a home pH tester is nice and handy, it doesn't tell you how much lime (or none) you might need in order to correct the pH. Get with your county agent and find out what the procedure is in SD to get a proper soil analysis done, so you can know the whole story.


Food for thought....
There IS a school of thought among some agronomists, that says conifers don't necessarily cause soil to be acidic.  That theory is, that conifers are simply a species that do well in acidic soil, so they tend to grow and flourish in areas that already have (and always have had) an acidic soil.

Get out of East Texas, and you will see no pines and the break line (especially on the south
 side) is quite dramatic and clear. I-10.  With the exception of Lost Pines out near Bastrop, the Western line is just as marked, at the beginning of the Post Oak belt..

https://texasalmanac.com/topics/environment/texas-plant-life


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 8, 2018)

LOL I was going to collect the pine needles by raking the grass. There are lots there, though you have to look in the thatch to notice them. Raking the wooded areas for bedding is too hard, with buck brush, branches, etc. 

Good point about the cause and effect, Greybeard. But if lime would help the grass grow better still, I’m all about doing that. I’ll talk to the agent and see what he thinks.  He told me earlier that our land should easily support the three Highland heifers and future calves, but we didn’t discuss soil amendments.


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## greybeard (Nov 8, 2018)

Cindy in SD said:


> LOL I was going to collect the pine needles by raking the grass. Raking the wooded areas is too hard, with buck brush, branches, etc. Good point about the cause and effect, Greybeard. But if lime would help the grass grow better still, I’m all about doing that.


But if your soil is already at or near neutral, adding lime will push pH farther into the alkaline range and can easily make matters worse.......and,you also have to consider that pH is in it's most basic form, a measurement of how much available hydrogen is in our soil. Lime, whether crushed limestone or powdered dolomite contains a lot of calcium and magnesium and both have an unparalleled  propensity to knock hydrogen ions off.(this is a bad thing)
You need to know what the micro-nutrient levels are as well as the pH. 

People tend to overdo their soils with lime if it is inexpensive and readily available in their area because of it's weight to volume ratio. Limestone, is HEAVY and therefore, 1 ton of limestone isn't much volume.

A basic soil pH analysis may come back with the reccomendation to incorporate X tons per acre to raise the pH to optimum level but if (for instance) that recommendation is less than 10 tons per acre, then  you really have to be careful about spreading it.
Let's say the recommendation is 1 ton (2,000lbs) crushed limestone per acre. That may seem like a lot, but limestone weighs 2,565 lbs per cubic yard. That, if formed into a square would be only 3ft  wide, 3 ft high and 3 ft long, (less volume than an average computer desk would take up) spread over 1 acre or 43,560 sq ft.  That is a lot of sq footage to get that small amount of lime spread evenly.
A 35' x 35' house covers only 1225 sq ft and a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood is only 32 sq ft, so you can see just how 'thin' or sparse the coverage would need to be for a recommended 1 ton lime/acre.
Limestone,crushed weighs:
2 cu yards=5,130lbs or 2.6 tons.
3 cu yards= 7,695lbs or 3.8 tons.
4 cu yards=10,260lbs or 5.1 tons.
5 cu yards=12,825lbs or 6.4 tons.
6 cu yards=15,390lbs or 7.7 tons.
7 cu yards=17,955lbs or 8.9 tons.
8 cu yards=20,520lbs or 10.3 tons.
9 cu yards=23,085lbs or 11.5 tons.
10 cu yards=25,650lbs or 12.8 tons.
11 cu yards=28,215lbs or 14.1 tons.
12 cu yards=30,780lbs or 15.4 tons.
13 cu yards=33,345lbs or 16.7 tons.
14 cu yards=35,910lbs or 17.9 tons.
(14 cu yards is what 1  standard 2 axle dump truck can hold--but they will be limited by limestone's heavy wt-to-volume ratio as to how many cu yards they can actually haul, and limestone is usually sold by the ton anyway.).


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## Cindy in SD (Nov 10, 2018)

Wow! Thanks for that great explanation. We live way out in the sticks and have a 3/4 ton pickup and a single axle flatbed trailer... If they gave us the lime (if we need it) it’d cost big time just to get it delivered. I’ll have to get with the extension office and ask about testing soils, I suppose. How does one spread lime, then?


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## greybeard (Nov 11, 2018)

Because of it's weight/ton, spreading or even hauling lime is normally not a do-it-yourself thing.
There are usually co-ops that will do it, or at least provide a lime/fert buggy for a small fee and of course, there are companies that will spread it for you.
Your extension agent can advise you on that, since he's in the loop in your area.
But, this is a lime bucket or lime spreader. The spreader is driven by the little tire you see on the side which is driven by the regular tires.





And they come in a variety of sizes. This one would probably hold close to a ton of crushed limestone. The  feed conveyor and  spinner that slings the lime can be seen on the back, and it is driven by gear and chain off the axle as the buggy is pulled along. The angled crank at the top rear is to adjust how big the opening is to drop lime down on the conveyor. Both the above pics are also used to spread pelletized fertilizer. These are usually not used to spread powdered limestone......too much waste due to the spinner being so high up..wind blows it everywhwere, even tho when a powdered lime truck spreads lime, it looks like a thich plume of white smoke is following him too.




You cannot back up with them once you have engaged to drive which only applies while you are out in the field. They are adjustable so you can spread the correct amt/acre and they will have a decal telling you how to set it and how many mph to pull it (not many....about 4mph)


Since you have a 3/4 truck, you could conceivably rent the buggy already loaded with lime, haul it to your place and spread it if it isn't muddy or the slope of the land too steep.
I have pulled the same size 2 axle spreader full of fertilize with a 2wd Chevy Silverado which is a 1/2 ton pickup, but I don't recommend it. That's a lot of weight for a truck as light as mine was.


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