# THE SHOW RING!Is this the place to select a new sire???



## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 1, 2011)

G'day and thanks for dropping by.............Patandchickens raised an interesting question on Sheepgirls topic,IE:The differences between sheep shows down here V/S up there.

Studs down here seem to be divided into two groups ,Production Studs and Fancy Breed Studs and I almost forgot Merino Studs.In most cases Production Studs only exhibit in the show ring as a way of supporting the local Show Society,but most of the exhibitors are showing Breeds that are "not"used in commercial operations.

 Most farmers looking for a new gene line will go to Farm Field Days,where Studs "buy" space to show there stock to potential buyers.The Sheep Industry down here was built on the Merino and "my" belief is that the modern Meat Sheep is in fact a Composite,it started with the 20/24 mic Merino and was crossed out to both Bourder Leisters and Dorsets and Suffolks to produce suitable meat carcasses generally the ewe line of the first cross was joined to the sire line of the next and so on.In fact C.S.I.R.O spent a large amount of "research $" to "breed-out" the black points of the Suffolk,to reduce the contamination of "lower grade Merino Wool"and the White Suffolk is now recognized as a breed in itself(but you never see them in a show ring) .

Farmers down here go with what "works for them" on there farm and style of management,as sheep are "run" from the tropical north to the desert and the colder areas of Tasmania.Large scale breeders of sheep meats(and I mean LARGE,20,000 breeders is not unusual)are always on the lookout for "new" breeds to improve their flocks performance,they are not "hung up" on a particular breed and breed what suits there operation,so the "bulk of our Meat Sheep flock are in fact Composites and "damm" good one's at that.

As for all those Show SheepBreeds they are mainly raised by School Ag Depts and by "hobby farmers" (a term used to describe "small area farmers down here").In fact the Sheep Meat Industry is built on "what grows meat"not what looks "pretty".

I don't know if up there there is a venue where "commercial producers " can show off their stock or could it be your "best "producing meat sheep never leave the farm.

I am interested in what "your "experiences have been producing "true ' Meat Sheep as a profit making enterprise and hope some of you will respond with a story or two...............................

..................................................T.O.R................................


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 2, 2011)

In my opinion there should be 2 distinct categories of sheep: show sheep and production sheep.  Show sheep have been altered so much to win in the show ring that they lose so many characteristics of what makes a good production sheep.  You would never make any money with sheep if you had to feed them like you have to feed show sheep.  Now, I'm mainly talking club lambs/meat sheep.  IMO, if you want to produce meat sheep commercially, you should find a sire that's doing the same thing that you want to do.  Find another working flock that is raised the same way you intend to raise yours (for example, ones that do well on pasture) and get one that way.  

Just like if I wanted a working border collie or great pyrenees. I wouldn't look at show breeders who raise dogs in their home, I would look at breeders with working dogs...dogs doing what they were bred to do.


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## patandchickens (Apr 2, 2011)

It is interesting to hear about the way things work elsewhere!

*Do* North American shepherds often go to shows to select new herdsires etc for commercial flocks, tho? (I don't honestly know for sure, I'm asking)

I shouldn't think so, not for most types anyhow, since I get the pretty strong impression that things like club lamb showing it is generally agreed that it IS its own little world and not a commercial-flock proposition.

?

The same thing is true of sooooo many other things. Performance-horse people do not breed from halter-class winners. Border collies in North America are pretty distinctly divided into 'real working' lines and AKC lines (there was much controversy within the BC community about whether to even seek AKC approval). heaven knows poultry showing has ZERO to do with even normal backyard flocks let alone commercial ones. Heck, if you want a car to drive you don't buy it at a classic or 'tuner' type car show 

It's a little more in-between situation for N American cattle, I guess, since there is so much promotion of certain sires/lines based on *actual performance* data and the availability of AI. But even there, I dunno how totally that matches what Joe Dairy Farmer would go out shopping for?

(Ask me about horses, LOL - I am *so* not a sheep or cattle person )

There used to be competitions for field crops (corn, wheat, etc) where the judge would actually go and visit each entrant's farms and wander through the fields, and award prizes based on that. NOT on a little sample cherry-picked from what was grown, but on the actual whole enchilada. Too bad there isn't any good way to do that with livestock. Well, really I guess there IS -- find out who are the more-successful producers with a management program similar to yours, and go buy stock from them 

Pat


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 3, 2011)

G'day ,thanks to both of you for your thoughts on the topic.........I note with interest that when ever the subject of "studs" arises there is a "deafening " silence from most of the forum....

  I should add that at our local show there are "separate classes" for Trade or Butcher's Lambs,its a pen of 3 and they are judged on the "evenness" of the line and there suitability for the Trade.They have a separate Judge who is usually comes from a background of selling sheep at the regional selling center(auction barn)and knows what the "big" buyers are after by way of lambs for the trade............In this section of the show you"never" see any stock from the studs(funny that)..

 It would be great to hear from some "new" sheepie's as to how they go about obtaining sire's to achieve positive outcomes for there own breeding programs.

Hope to get some more views on this topic ,as where you purchase your gene pool from can make a huge difference to your progeny and "one " mistake can take "years"to correct..

.......................................T.O.R..........................


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## Bossroo (Apr 4, 2011)

The deafening silence from the forum is mostly due to most here  are just hobby farmers who are mostly brand new to sheep or just in it for the cute or hobby wool part or just in it for just enough meat for one's own table or just have one or two for pets only ( babydoll sheep). I would NEVER keep a black wooled sheep, wool with black wool fiber in the wool or much less a spotted sheep or from a backyard flock, much less any of the babydolls in my flock. Bad economics ! With the demise of the wool prices, loss of most sheep shearers resulting in meotoric rise in shearing costs, raising wool sheep in now bad economics. Raising hair sheep with high meat production characteristics is now the choice to even hope to make any profit.   Most have no idea what cuts of meat come from what part of the sheep, much less the genetics of what characteristics to select for to maximize meat and/ or wool yield. They have no idea of land and pasture management, much less sheep husbandry. Today's 4H shows are just that... shows. A joke compared to the ones of 30 years ago .  Most of these sheep wouldn't survive a year out on the range. Here is what I did many moons ago. I baught just over 1000 white faced wool ewes in 3 lots. I marked the most open faced ewes by marking them on the face with a red chalk. I then  had them shorn, then I ran them through a chute again and selected for size and marked them on the back with red chalk. Of those I seperated in lots of ten in a small pen and selected for meat conformation characteristics. This resulted in 87 ewes. I sold the rest and all of their wool. Made a tidy profit.  I baught the best purebred Ramboulet ram that I could find. Then, I baught 5 of the best purebred Suffolk yearling ewes from a very well respected purebred breeder that specialized in the yearling ram sales. Next, I baught a purebred yearling ram from UCD that had been  rate of gain and progency tested (150 -200 rams tested each year for meat conformation,twinning, rate of gain,breeding soundness) for at least 5 generations. I then bred him to the 5 Purebred Suffolk ewes for future crossbred sires and ram sales, then turned him out with the range ewes together with the Ramboulet ram. I kept most of the white face ewe lambs for breeding as yearlings and sold all of the rest of the white faces at the high end of auction prices, as well as all of the Suffolk crossbreds at the highest end of auction prices. I  again made a very tidy profit for many years. When the wool market started to evaporate , I sold off the white face flock for a  nice profit. I continued with the purebred Suffolks for ram sales for a couple more years untill the market started to dwindle once again. I sold out at a very nice profit.


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## patandchickens (Apr 4, 2011)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> The deafening silence from the forum is mostly due to most here are just hobby farmers who are mostly brand new to sheep or just in it for the cute or hobby wool part or just in it for just enough meat for one's own table or just have one or two for pets only ( babydoll sheep).


That.

There are various internet forums for actual sheep producers; this isnt one of them 

I post most of my sheep questions here because actual sheep producers on other forums seem by and large not to be terribly interested in newbie questions from someone with a flock of five (5) whole sheep. And have gotten much useful advice and support here.

But this forum hasn't much of anything to do with actual commercial flocks.


Pat, who technically has *6* sheep now, one very small and new


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## RustyDHart (Apr 4, 2011)

]I have raised Scottish Blackface sheep since 1996....I kept over 160 last year....I've sold them for both meat and wool.  No..they won't compete against a Merino for quality of wool...or a Suffolk for quanity and quality of meat.....but they were raised to survive and excel in areas of the world where other breeds would not do so well. I breed to the "Breed" standard... They have white wool...some do get a few black spots or "grizzling" in their wool.   This off colored wool is more often chosen first by handspinners than the white wool...at least here in my area of the country...and at $5.00-$6.00 a lb. for the raw wool...I'm not complaining.  I'm always trying to better my stock and improve the breed while maintaining their historic characteristics and purpose.  I believe each breed has a uniqueness and I'm thankful to the various types of shepherds that are perpetuating these breeds for future generations.  I just had another lamb born this morning...(Number 31)....one more of the breed to carry on into the future.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Apr 4, 2011)

G'day and thanks for stopping by once again.Its "drizzling rain" this morning so the "farm work"is on hold for the time being.

I for one do not presume to "judge 'one's choices in there livestock breed ,because you really have to "love" the choice you make in order to cope with the financial and emotional hurdles you will face in any "livestock enterprise".....The size of the enterprise should not preclude sound decisions based on a good economic outcome and the direction of the breeding program and the results desired should be thought about "before" any decision is made.

I believe this is a wonderful forum for those people who are at the beginning of there journey towards what they believe is a far "better" lifestyle than the one they have at the present....In our case we started where many of you are now (almost 45 yrs ago) and it resulted in a wonderful era of our children growing up respecting animals and other people as well,they learned from a young age that "every" animal born is "not" meant to survive and that Nature has a way of making sure that species survive into the future.

In all our responses I try to give "sound"advice to the questions advanced as I believe it is better to think twice and only act once,to endeavorer to gain as much knowledge as possible from every possible source to assist in your decision making process....There will be times when the "kindest "thing to do is to end a life which when all the facts are considered it is obvious that Nature has decreed that this "life" will NOT advance the species in any way.When you "part"with a substantial amount of money to a vet to try and save "said' life you are in fact degrading the future of the species and Nature will redress the balance further down the track.

I feel there is a need on the forum for "serious"topic's to be addressed that are not the usual panic situations and baby photo's which take up much of the topic space(and rightly so),but then maybe I have got it all wrong and if so I'm sure you will" all" tell me so.

Well it looks as though the rain has stopped and so I had better get back to some "real" work(today its time to "chop off" some chooks heads),so till next time ,regards from T.O.R.


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