# Day 34 and no babies- is vet intervention needed?



## DianeS (Apr 27, 2011)

It's day 34, and my doe has not delivered yet. So I know to expect the babies to be dead when she does deliver. 

She seems to be miserable. She's normally active, but the last two days she doesn't move around but lays on her side in the nest box. She has eaten very little (if anything), and drunk just a tiny bit. 

Since it's so late, do I need to intervene in some way? Does she need a shot of something to force her to deliver? My vet doesn't "do" rabbits, but will prescribe whatever I need if I tell her what it is. 

Advice appreciated. Thanks.


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## Bossroo (Apr 27, 2011)

Any Vet that would "prescribe whatever I need if I tell her what it is " ... WOW just WOW!!!           Just who is the Vet here ???  Certainly NOT the vet !


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## Legacy (Apr 27, 2011)

I think it's great that a vet would be that understanding. In rural areas where there aren't many vets and certainly not vets that do small animals, it would be great to have that resource.

I'm sure the vet has some common sense and can tell if what is requested rings true against his own knowledge of animal medicine.  

Maybe I just have more faith in people knowing things even if they don't have a degree.

And I certainly appreciate it when a doctor, any doctor, doesn't just assume "average" people are beneath knowing things.


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## DianeS (Apr 27, 2011)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> Any Vet that would "prescribe whatever I need if I tell her what it is " ... WOW just WOW!!!           Just who is the Vet here ???  Certainly NOT the vet !


She is the perfectly awesome veterinarian I have had for my animals for 14 years. She and I work together as a team to keep my animals healthy, and respect each other's knowledge and dedication to animal health. She is aware of a handful of things that rabbits can need, but has done no studying on them whatsoever. Because I am her only client with rabbits, and because she knows and believes that I do appropriate study and know my animals well, she would certainly believe me if I walked in and said "I have a pregnant rabbit that is 3-4 days overdue, the babies are almost certainly dead inside her, and I need X ml of Y med in a syringe to force her to deliver so I don't lose the doe too." After all, it's certain to be a medication similar to ones for cats and dogs that she has in stock. 

And remember, most of the medications I would want to use can be purchased over the counter. Getting them from my vet eliminates having to wait for shipping.

And now back to the original question - does a doe that has not delivered on day 34 need intervention?


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## Bunnylady (Apr 27, 2011)

My vet has admitted that, since I have been breeding rabbits for upward of 20 years, I know more about rabbits than she does. I appreciate her candor, it's much nicer than the omniscient attitude that I get from some doctors!

The shot you are referring to is pitocin (oxytocin). (Just FYI, it is not available OTC, it is too dangerous to be in the hands of the public. I do know rabbit breeders with their own little bottle that was supplied to them by a Vet that felt that they were knowledgeable enough to know when to use it and when not to.) You have to be very careful when giving it, to be sure that the animal is actually ready to give birth. A tiny amount will trigger strong contractions in an animal that is dilated but not "doing anything serious."  A large dose can induce contractions in an animal that isn't really ready, but that risks rupturing the cervix and, well, we don't want to go there, do we? 

Excuse me for asking, but I feel like I have to, are you sure this doe is pregnant? As in, palpated her and felt the babies inside? The Vet will probably want to examine the rabbit as well, just to make sure. If the doe were playing at a false pregnancy, she most likely would have quit before now, but rabbits seem to make up their own rules sometimes. If she isn't actually pregnant, pitocin shouldn't do her any harm, but I'm sure you'd rather not go through the bother and expense if it weren't necessary. 

The doe may yet deliver on her own. The usual pattern for overdue litters in only one or two huge, dead kits, but sometimes there are pleasant surprises. Most does do eventually get the job done. A peculiar feature of rabbits is that babies that don't get born sometimes mummify inside the doe's uterus. These mummies act like IUD's, interfering with the ability of the doe to conceive (at least, on that side). I have seen a couple of these mummies get passed with later litters, and they are weird looking, to be sure!


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## DianeS (Apr 27, 2011)

Ah! I knew there was something that would trigger the contractions.

I believe the rabbit in question is pregnant, yes. I am not an expert at palpating, but my guess is a small number of kits - maybe three. And it's definately day 34, I've checked my calendar, checked my records, and she was only with the buck one day. She lives in an elevated hutch with no chance of having conceived at a later date than the one in my records. (Of course false pregnancy is possible, but I don't know how to determine if it's false when it feels like there are kits.)

So if I understand correctly, these are the possibilities:

A - I do not intervene:
1 - She delivers on her own. (Or stops being falsely pregnant on her own.)
2 - She doesn't deliver, and the kits mummify inside her, keeping her from conceiving again.
3 - She doesn't deliver, and ends up with an infection she dies from or that keeps her from conceiving again.

B - I do intervene:
1 - She receives the shot, all goes well and she delivers.
2 - She receives the shot, but her body does not cooperate and she dies.

Am I missing any possibilities? I'm not seeing too many positive outcomes.

You said most does eventually get the job done, even when late like this.  Is there a number of days overdue you would wait for, before deciding to administer picotin? Are there signs that something is internally wrong (like an infection from deceased unborn kits)? 

Thanks for the help! She looks so miserable and is not acting like herself - nor is she acting like she's going to deliver. (Not nesting, etc. Just laying still.)


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## Bossroo (Apr 27, 2011)

My Dad was a Vet.  I have worked at UCD Vet. Teaching hospital for many years. I have also worked with about  600 senior Vet students on Necropsy rotations where we necropsied everything from a Killer Whale to a shrew. Also on my own ranch with those students on Ambulatory rotation.  There is a Graduate Vet + 5 senior Vet students that travel to all types large and small rances and farms as well as a Zoo and an Amusement park with exotic and aquatic animals (such as lions, tigers, killer whales, sea lions, swans, etc)  on call. Thruout the visit all of the Vet students are asked to examine the ill or injured animal, report their findings and then answer any question that is asked by the Vet, fellow students and owners. Present a diagnosis and other possible causes for that case as well as mode of treatment and any alternatives then provide the treatment and medication. The Vet students have been exposed to all types of livestock and wild animal during their 4 years of Vet School, and certainly they have to study for the State Boards where they will be asked all kinds of questions on any livestock, wild animal, marine and fresh water animal and fish,  their deseases and treatments. They have to pass those tests if they hope to get their license to practice Veterinary Medicine. If DianeS had this vet for 14 years and she is relying on her for her to figure out what medication to prescibe, she is just out and out lazy and   not doing DianeS any favors. Just because she doesn't see many rabbits in her practice is of NO excuse.  Would you have your family Doctor write you a prescription for a powerful drug just on your say so ?   I am NOT impressed.


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## terri9630 (Apr 30, 2011)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> My Dad was a Vet.  I have worked at UCD Vet. Teaching hospital for many years. I have also worked with about  600 senior Vet students on Necropsy rotations where we necropsied everything from a Killer Whale to a shrew. Also on my own ranch with those students on Ambulatory rotation.  There is a Graduate Vet + 5 senior Vet students that travel to all types large and small rances and farms as well as a Zoo and an Amusement park with exotic and aquatic animals (such as lions, tigers, killer whales, sea lions, swans, etc)  on call. Thruout the visit all of the Vet students are asked to examine the ill or injured animal, report their findings and then answer any question that is asked by the Vet, fellow students and owners. Present a diagnosis and other possible causes for that case as well as mode of treatment and any alternatives then provide the treatment and medication. The Vet students have been exposed to all types of livestock and wild animal during their 4 years of Vet School, and certainly they have to study for the State Boards where they will be asked all kinds of questions on any livestock, wild animal, marine and fresh water animal and fish,  their deseases and treatments. They have to pass those tests if they hope to get their license to practice Veterinary Medicine. If DianeS had this vet for 14 years and she is relying on her for her to figure out what medication to prescibe, she is just out and out lazy and   not doing DianeS any favors. Just because she doesn't see many rabbits in her practice is of NO excuse.  Would you have your family Doctor write you a prescription for a powerful drug just on your say so ?   I am NOT impressed.


Not everyone has acess that that many vets.  Out here your lucky to get a farm call and it costs $$$  There is one small animal vet and a small animal vet that treats large animals.  Neither will work on chickens or rabbits other than to charge $40 to euthanize and one won't work on unmanageable or "wild" animals.   The next closest vets are over 60 miles away.


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## Holachicka (May 4, 2011)

I'm curious to know how it all turned out?


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## Delighted (May 6, 2011)

yeah, me too!


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