# Doe with swollen lip...  :/



## cmjust0 (Jan 6, 2010)

So, my wife just called and said that one of our doe's upper lip was swollen on one side.  Dunno what it is, but we suspect she may have pulled a Christmas Story on a pipegate or frozen water bucket..  

Think "flagpole."  

Yeah...that little trick.

But with the inside of her upper lip.  

We dunno that for sure, and the poor gal wasn't cooperating well enough for my wife to get a good look..  It's obviously hurting her pretty good, though.  What sucks is that it's sooooooo cold and she's not really eating very well.  Wife said she was trying to eat but it was obviously difficult..  An empty rumen = a chilly goat.  

I'll check it out more when I get home.  If there's some sort of abrasion or lacerated ( or _mascerated_?  ) looking soft tissue on the inside of her lip, she'll get a shot of banamine for pain and swelling.  

Weird.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 6, 2010)

Hopefully it will be something simple and heal quickly.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 7, 2010)

It was swollen pretty good last night, and looked like there was a little raw spot right on the bottom of her lip..  If it were summer time, I'd think it was a bite or sting..  The 'peachfuzz' was gone around it, though, so I'm sorta leaning toward it being a flagpole + 15* temp thing.  We'll keep an eye on it.

She's fine otherwise, but clearly taking it easy on the lip..  She went around to the side of the hay feeder where she wouldn't have to worry much about competition or eating too fast.  Very deliberate in picking up and chewing her hay.  Thought about a shot of banamine for pain and swelling, but I hate using banamine...it's hard on the innards..  Unless they really need it, I try to avoid using it.  She didn't reeeeally need it, I don't think.

Anyway...guess we'll just keep an eye on her.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 7, 2010)

One shot of Banamine wouldn't be that hard on the innards. At least it would probably help with the swelling and pain. If it is cold, I'd rather make sure they are eating plenty of hay.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 7, 2010)

If she were pretty bad off, I'd have given it..  I've been giving her and two others extra grain to put a little more condition on them, and she ran right over for that..  Then straight from there to the hay feeder...she's just eating more slowly's all.

If it's still swollen tonight, I'll probably hit her with Banamine.  If it's still swollen _tomorrow_...I'm calling the vet.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 8, 2010)

Okay...last night, the sore spot was leaking.  

She got a round of tetracycline.  I'm nearing the end of that bottle of Bio-Mycin, and it was oxidized.  Must have really hurt...she was already squirming halfway through the shot and bolted away when I was done..  Started picking her front leg up, stomping the ground, etc..  Not even an IM shot, either..  I'd have given Banamine too, but the oxytet made her mad enough to go stand in a corner instead of eating.  I figured it was best to leave her be.  

If I don't see improvement tonight, she may well go to the vet tomorrow for an exam and possibly a culture, just so we know we've got the right antibiotic.  

I'm thinking now that it must have been a thorn stick or something but...on the lip?  Seems really odd.  I've seen them bury their heads in thorny hedgeapples and they LOVE eating thistle in the summer...would think their lips are fairly impervious.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 8, 2010)

Hopefully nothing too serious but obviously it is starting to abscess. At least you saw it and gave her some antibiotics.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 8, 2010)

Yeah, and ya wanna hear something really cool that I _just_ realized?

I gave a shot of oxytet to an early bred doe without even THINKING about it..  Isn't that just super?!?!?



I know some folks do it routinely and there's some debate about the issues it may cause, but dang...not giving tetracyclines to a bred doe is goat 101.  

Feeling like an idiot right now.

ETA...it's not like I forgot about the issue..._I just didn't think about her being bred!_  How pathetic is that?!?

These are the days when you just wanna say...screw it...I'm not raising goats anymore.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 8, 2010)

Well, I'm sure one shot won't hurt her. You can always switch over to the Excenel. That is safe for pregnant females. It happens. You get busy and want to take care of things and just forget.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 8, 2010)

So, I just called the vet to get a pro's opinion on two things...

First, on how bad I screwed up by giving tetracycline to an early-bred doe..  I've read where some people say they'll abort, some say the kids get weird bone-related birth defects, etc...and then others say the danger is vastly overstated and really no biggie at all.  I've never done it before so I have no first-hand experience...but...like...I'm picturing skeletor with long ears or something..  That's what's in my head when I think of bone-related birth defects. 



Second thing was, I wanted an opinion on what antibiotic he thought I should switch to.  I figured for sure he'd say Penicillin, which would suck, because she'd need about 9.5ml, 2x/day for 10-14 days..  I don't personally like to put more than 6ml of any med in one spot unless it's critical, so that means 2 jabs at a lick, twice a day.  And since Pen G is a suspension with big particles, an 18ga needle is more or less required..  Ugh.  Four stovepipe jabs a day is NOT cool..

His tech called me back and goes "He said it wasn't a big deal.  _Sometimes_ the kids come out with yellow teeth, but that's all."

I was like...oh, well, that's not so bad...whew...  And just as I was about to ask what to switch her to, the tech said "So, yeah, you can use it."

I was like..."Um...wait....so, he said I could just continue her on the tetracycline?"

"Yep."



Allllllllllllrighty then.  I mean, he brought up stained yellow teeth...specifically mentioned it...so I know it's not like he's just totally unaware that there are issues..  And he's been treating large animals for a long, long time..  He's a super vet..  

Yet, even after hearing that......I'm still wary of actually taking his advice!   

What would you guys do?  Would it weird you out, too, or would you be like...sweet!

Part of me thinks it's sweet to give a scant 4.5ml/day for a few days of a broad-spectrum med that works reasonably well on more bugs than Pen G, and get to save her the annoyance of four sticks a day for a looooong time...like, 10 days..  That's *40* jabs..

The other part of me, though....   I can just see a kid coming out looking like elephant man, or smiling at me with a mouth full of bright yellow teeth..


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 8, 2010)

If you go to this page and read toward the bottom, he recommends giving Tet to preggo animals.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 8, 2010)

I've seen that advice before, on that page, and on several others that basically did a copy/paste of it....which, of course, makes it appear as though it's a widely accepted practice...which, of course, makes it nearly impossible to tell whether or not that's actually the case.

Lots of intarweb goat info is that way...  :/

I think I'll probably just switch her to Excenel to be safe.  

Still don't know what the heck happened to her..  It's like one minute she was fine, then POOF -- lip puffed up.  I saw a little sore looking spot in the middle of it, but nothing super nasty looking..  Then it's draining?!?  

Just weird.

Dang goats.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 8, 2010)

Wife called a little while ago and said she checked in on the doe again..  Said she's still acting normally, and ate some hay.  Said the wound itself looks like it _may_ be a _bit_ less grodie than yesterday, but that it's more or less the same..  

I could sorta tell by her demeanor -- the wife, not the goat -- that it's getting better.  She's obviously rolling it around in her mind, analyzing, trying to do a mental comparison between how it looks today versus yesterday, etc.  Still, I could tell by her voice that she's less concerned about it than she was, regardless of whether that registering _intellectually_ or not.  To me, that means the first round of antibiotics is working and goat's getting better.

We'll start the Excenel tonight..  

Y'all hide and watch, though.....my luck runs such that whatever's caused this abcess will be susceptible to tetracyline and not to ceftiofur, and she'll get _worse!_


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2010)

The swelling was much improved as of yesterday...seemed to be responding well to antibiotics.  Main issue now is that she had blood around her vajayginal area.....likely aborted, we think.  Could have been from the tetracycline I guess, or from a fever on account of the infection.  May never know.  Or may not have aborted...could always be incidental bleeding...  Probably need to have her blood-tested for pregnancy soon, just to be sure.

Wife went down to give hay yesterday while I was gone to buy _more_ hay (  ) and told me that it appeared there was something 'sticking out' of the wound on her lip..  She couldn't tell what it was..  

Well...when we went down later to grain and throw hay for the night, I 'rassled her a little and took a look....sure enough, it was icky stuff poking out a bit.  I pressed on her lip every so gently ( yet still much to her chagrin) and WOW..  The hole was about 1/4" in diameter and crap just started popping out like crazy.  I had to let her take breaks, then wrangle her up again for several rounds of squeezing before I got to 'bloody juice.'  I'd say we probably recovered 2-3ml of crud.  Whatever was hung up in there -- thorn, splinter, whatever -- almost certainly _has_ to be gone now.

Had it not been late already, and had it not been 6* outside with a stiff wind, were she not already royally P/O'd, and perhaps most importantly, had I not been flat out of iodine, I would certainly have flushed it.  But I didn't..  Could have gone back inside and mixed up a betadine or chlorhex solution, but...well, ultimately I'm lazy I guess.  
 

My guess, though, is that now that all the crap's gone, it'll seal over and she'll be fine.  Might go on and give her another day or two of Excenel, though..just to be safe.

I'll keep us all posted.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 11, 2010)

You may still want to flush it out a bit. Sometimes those buggers don't want to quit. I would do a full round of antibiotics to be sure.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll be picking up some gentle iodine on the way home tonight..  If it's not sealed up and/or produces anymore exudate, it'll get flushed.  

I've only ever heard three days for a duration on ceftiofur, so that's generally what I do if I have to use it.  She's had three...I'm sure I'll give #4 tonight, and may even go 5.  

Then again, I've also read 0.5-1mg/lb, a dosing regimen under which a 150lb goat should get AT MOST  3ml..  My personal dosing regimen is 1ml/25lb...so at about 140lbs, mine's getting 5.5ml.

Who knows..  

Ahhhhhh, the joys of pioneer doctorin' in goat world...  :/


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 11, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> The swelling was much improved as of yesterday...seemed to be responding well to antibiotics.  Main issue now is that she had blood around her vajayginal area.....likely aborted, we think.  Could have been from the tetracycline I guess, or from a fever on account of the infection.  May never know.  Or may not have aborted...could always be incidental bleeding...  Probably need to have her blood-tested for pregnancy soon, just to be sure.
> 
> Wife went down to give hay yesterday while I was gone to buy _more_ hay (  ) and told me that it appeared there was something 'sticking out' of the wound on her lip..  She couldn't tell what it was..
> 
> ...


Is it sick that I find it very satisfying squeezing abcesses?  Dairy cows get HUGE abcesses and sometimes when you lance them they'll squirt puss!!  

I'm strange. I know.  :/


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 11, 2010)

Yuck!  I'm a groomer and one of my co-workers just relishes squeezing anything like that on the dogs-   Different strokes, as they say.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2010)

No, it's not weird..  Too many people feel that way for it to be completely off the wall.  

My personal theory is that we're hardwired to be a little bit curious as to what's hiding in an abscess as part of an evolutionary survival mechanism.  Maybe that sounds a little far fetched and ridiculous, but imagine how many more people would have died of septicaemia throughout the history of mankind if there weren't other people standing around going...Pop it!  Pop it, you big chicken!!  Oh, c'mon...do you want me to pop it for you?!?!  I just wanna see what's in there!



Conversely, I can see whole family lines being wiped out for standing around looking at each other like....You touch it.  No, you do it, I don't wanna.  How about we just leave it alone and see what happens.........


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## Roll farms (Jan 11, 2010)

Y'all ain't right.....I'm just sayin'.  Cheese slid off your cracker 'n all that.

(kidding....you're just a little gross, is all.)


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## cmjust0 (Jan 11, 2010)

ETA -- Just talked to the wife..  She checked on the goat and said you can barely tell the area was ever swollen..  Looked at the hole -- which was a discernable hole last night -- and said it's more or less closed up and dry looking.  Doe's eating, drinking, wanting attention...generally being a goat.

All's well, except for the blood on her hiney.  Who knows what to make of that...  Vaginal bleeding during pregnancy is never a good diagnostic sign, but then again, I'm not sure it's altogether that uncommon in almost any mammal.

We shall see, I suppose..  If she did abort, my only hope is that she got it all out.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 21, 2010)

Just an update...the doe's healing up well, and everything looks fine.  Think we may have figured out what happened, though -- _new teeth_!

She's putting up her 2nd pair of adult teeth, which sorta move the baby teeth around and make things go a little wonky..  My wife noticed that the site of the injury was pretty much exactly where the new adult tooth came in on her left side, so we figure she may have just bitten her lip with a new tooth.

Go figure.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 21, 2010)

Wow, that is weird. At least she is doing fine now.


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