# Extending the Grazing Season and MIG Rotational Grazing Plans



## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

Since I've been doing some planning on making the farm into a cow-calf operation that focuses on management intensive grazing (i.e. rotational grazing) as well as going year-round on grazing as well, I came across this link a while back that has helped me decide what winter grazing method to go with.

Year Round GRazing (scroll down and click on link below under "Year Round Grazing Handbook") 

Breed of cattle is also important to decide on which will do best on grass alone--and I'm caught between three breeds I'm quite partial to: Red Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn.  All three are known to do well on grass alone.  Thoughts?

Now with MIG also comes water systems to implement.  I've already got an idea of where to run water lines so that cattle don't have very far to go for water, but the types of waterers I'm a little stuck on...I'll have to do some research there.

There are a few areas of riparian areas that I want to fence off for wildlife habitat and to only use for times when grass gets low.  The more grassy areas around the part of the farm where the steers have been set to graze (the small groups that were singled out to eat down the grass), I don't know what I should do with, whether I should use that as a possible area for horses or do the same like we did in the past and have a few cattle to keep the grass down while the rest of the herd is out on the quarter.

Anyway, that's what I plan to do with the farm in half a nutshell.  

Questions? Thoughts?


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## wynedot55 (Apr 11, 2009)

heres somethings you need todo as well.decide what cool/winter season grasses you need to estb.then how big are your grazing cells gonna be.an can they graze in snow.have enough hay to feed till theres grass.have freezeproof waterers.if it gets to bad to graze you can bring the cows to the corrals.youd prolly want to go with both hereford an shorthorn cows.how much pasture an hay ground do you have.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

I've heard to go with the grasses that are best growing right now, like the two species of brome (meadow brome, smooth brome), as well as kentucky bluegrass, fescue and maybe some wheatgrass, in order of importance/commonness. 

The grazing cells can  vary in size, since they would be fenced with single-wired poly wire electric fence, but the larger paddocks themselves would range from 30 acres to 50, depending on how the water plan and the use of the fences that are around now turn out.  So in other words, it'd be like strip grazing, where within a paddock of say 40 acres the cattle would be allowed to graze 10' or 20' depending on the amount of forage available at a time, with a back fence so that they don't back graze the stuff they were just moved off of.

The snow depends on how deep it gets; bale grazing can be good for this since we rarely get a depth of snow in flat areas more than 4' deep.  There's nothing wrong with having cattle to eat snow either, there's been operations that do that; yet fresh water should be available in the mean time when the snow gets hard and crusty. 

Having enough hay to feed or enough winter feed is also important that I would have to calculate out, but of course it also depends on how much forage has grown during the year and whether I need to either buy hay or sell some animals.  I hope I would have to do neither.

The thing is is that I have two quarter sections to work with: about 320 acres at the maximum.  I want to put most of it into pasture, at least the stuff that isn't in pasture already; the other part of the 2 quarters I can't is a few acres set aside for handling facilities and the home acreage on the home quarter as well as a neighbor's acreage on the other quarter.  Right now we have about 100 acres put into pasture and feedlot in the home quarter, and about 60 or so acres set aside for hay and silage.  The rest is all cropland.  It is that cropland (as well as hay) that I want to use for pasture, as well as hay.  So in other words the part or parts that I can't get the cattle to graze in time before it all goes to seed (or flower, whichever you want to call it) I can cut for hay.  This will be apparent when I start with only 3 or 5 3-in-1 cow-calf pairs.  Perhaps it would also be apparent when I build my herd up to the projected number of 80 or more.

I know there are neighbors around that have Shorthorn and Hereford herds, so I do plan on looking into those for possible foundation stock.


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## jhm47 (Apr 11, 2009)

Just how cold does it get in Alberta?  Here in SD, we often get several weeks of weather where it doesn't get above 0, and the nights often drop to -30 to -40.  I can tell you that our cows wouldn't survive by just grazing in that.  If you get 4' of snow, your cows won't have any chance to graze.  Just walking around in 4' of snow is a challenge (believe me, I've been doing it for 60 years), let alone trying to graze in it.  Put extreme cold and 4' of snow together, and those poor cows will be lucky to be able to eat enough to survive even with the best hay.  Please be prepared with an emergency supply of hay and silage for your cows.


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## Farmer Kitty (Apr 11, 2009)

Also I have learned that while grass only can work you need your soils up to snuff-not just par. Personnally, I would recommend you keep an open mind to the fact that there maybe issues with one to all that you will need to supplement something more.

On the snow for water, I'm not sold on it and would hesitate on it. Snow contains a variety of moisture in it. Most of what we had this last winter was dry. It would take a lot more of it to keep them hydrated than a wet snow. I keep water tubs and would recommend that anyone with animals should.


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## Farmer Kitty (Apr 11, 2009)

kstavan is in Canada and I know they do some grass only feeding. He would have probably be able to help you with questions. I do know he recommends to keep an open mind about feeding supplements if your cattle are not thriving.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

I said *rarely* gets that deep, the most its gotten is 2' to 3'.  JHM, you're forgetting where I'm from: CANADA, the land of COLD and SNOW....; I live ~150 km north of Edmonton, Alberta. We're not in prairie where there is lots of deep snow like it is in SD, but even then I can't go without saying that we don't get deep snow either, nor nasty blizzards.  Which means that we get winter days where it _very rarely_ gets above 0 C, most days its -10 to -20 C with nights going below -30 C, as well as some cold snaps the days stay around -35 C with nights going below -45, sometimes getting to -50.  And yes I've walked through deep snow as well in most winters for as long as I remember, it is not fun.  But the article that I posted have producers that graze cattle through cold winters like that and are able to do so with enough planning and flexibility.  Did you read it, btw?  For some darned reason I couldn't post the direct link to the article that is clickable... :/

No silage: just hay, with minerals as well.  I thought I mentioned that I wanted to do bale grazing, and not stockpiling?  Stockpiling would only happen when the pastures have gone to dormancy and the snow is still not that deep.  When it gets deep or when the forecast calls for more snow going beyond their level of grazing its time to move them to a better area where they readily have access to feed; i.e. hay bales.  Of course this also depends on forage availability if I can afford to have a pasture ready for them to do any stockpile grazing.

But I do agree with you JHM, it is always safe to have a Plan B and Plan C, and if at all, a Plan D.


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## Farmer Kitty (Apr 11, 2009)

Temp conversion chart--We're dealing with both C and F here so I thought I would make things easier by reposting it here.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> Also I have learned that while grass only can work you need your soils up to snuff-not just par. Personnally, I would recommend you keep an open mind to the fact that there maybe issues with one to all that you will need to supplement something more.
> 
> On the snow for water, I'm not sold on it and would hesitate on it. Snow contains a variety of moisture in it. Most of what we had this last winter was dry. It would take a lot more of it to keep them hydrated than a wet snow. I keep water tubs and would recommend that anyone with animals should.


Yes, I realize that. I know that soil tests need to be done if any improvements are needed to be done on the current pastures as well as on the proposed seeded areas.

Flexibility is also important with this type of operation, that I also realize.  I am keeping an open mind to learn as much as I can and plan accordingly.  With that I can't say that I will be having an 80-head cow-calf herd (it's hard to say until I get there), because according to some calculations done the carrying capacity for a quarter section under fair grazing conditions is 15 AU. Under excellent conditions its 32 AU.  But I think that is totally off because if it was that then we wouldn't be able to sustain and have a great stocker steer herd of 80+, which translates to ~40 cc pairs on just one quarter section.  That's why I say that I can possibly do 80 pairs or more, since with rotational grazing you can have a higher # of head on a nonconventional system compared to a conventional one.

There were studies done on cattle being able to eat snow. Proof:
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq7991
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/for8666
http://www1.foragebeef.ca/$foragebeef/frgebeef.nsf/all/ccf1020



> kstavan is in Canada and I know they do some grass only feeding. He would have probably be able to help you with questions. I do know he recommends to keep an open mind about feeding supplements if your cattle are not thriving.


I hope he comes on here and gives me some pointers.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

Here's the link for the Year Round Grazing Guide:

http://areca.ab.ca/sitewyze/files/YearRoundGrazingFinal5[1].pdf 
It's a big file so it might take a while to come up, especially if you're on dial-up.  But it's worth the read.

_GRRRR...the dam link won't work...you'll have to copy and paste it to get the file to come up._


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## Farmer Kitty (Apr 11, 2009)

I know some use snow for water. Here, it could get you into trouble, not sure about areas such as jhm where there's wider open places. It's just not something I would recommend due to the varying degree of moisture in the snow. There can also be an issue of eating to much snow and cooling down their bodies to far--I would imagine this would especially apply to really dry snow.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> I know some use snow for water. Here, it could get you into trouble, not sure about areas such as jhm where there's wider open places. It's just not something I would recommend due to the varying degree of moisture in the snow. There can also be an issue of *eating to much snow and cooling down their bodies to far*--I would imagine this would especially apply to really dry snow.


:/ Never heard of that; none of the studies that I read that I linked from Foragebeef.ca said anything about the snow cooling the cattle down too much.  

Either my one post was too long or what but I think I did say that the cattle would need a water source via waterers because eventually that soft fresh stuff would turn into dry, crystally and crusty snow that is not going to be readily eaten by cattle who are trained to eat snow.  Nothing that deals with cooling their bodies down too much..:/


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## Farmer Kitty (Apr 11, 2009)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> Farmer Kitty said:
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There was an issue quite a few years ago, it was in the news but, I can't remember where it happened. There were cattle that had snow for their water source and had basically frozen from the inside out because of it. I don't know if they had had crusty snow for a bit and then fresh fell on top or what. 

I know you said you would have another water source but, remember others may read this post for info. I just wanted them to realize that there is a need for another water source. Our heifers have fillled watertubs year round and yet, we will see them eating snow too.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2009)

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
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That's why I still like to have a water source available as well.  I guess some cattle can be just lazy and eat the snow while its fresh and its there; but of course if there's water available, they'll know where it is.


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## jhm47 (Apr 12, 2009)

The biggest problem with using snow as a sole water source is that it takes a lot of energy/calories to melt it and warm it enough to be used in the digestive process.  Snow at -30 degrees needs to be heated 62 degrees to become water, and then it needs to be heated nearly another 70 degrees to reach body temperature.  That's over 130 degrees.  Can you imagine how much energy that would take?

Another thing is that a cow's rumen requires a lot of water to continue the digestive process.  The cow eats hay/grass, and this needs water to properly digest it.  This process produces a lot of heat, and if there is not enough water (at the proper temperature), the cow will quidkly go into hypothermia.


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## Beekissed (May 2, 2009)

WRB, have you read Salad Bar Beef by Joel Salatin?  He has some interesting methods for watering and winter feeding you may want to consider. 

 I'm going to implement the winter feeding method on my own small place and expect it will work very well.  When you hear his explanations for how and why he does the things he does, you will wonder why others hadn't thought of it.  Its ingenious and it keeps the cows warm, not having to fight deep snows, keeps you from worrying about water out in the pastures AND composts your manure all winter long.  All of this for 1 hour, or less, of chores per day.  

His book also has a section about calving in April, especially in the  more northern climes.  

I think you will like the book!


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## WildRoseBeef (May 3, 2009)

BK, I found a couple other books that are really good for grass-fed operations: Grass-fed Cattle  and Small-scale Livestock Farming: A Grass-Based Approach for Health, Sustainability, and Profit.  The author of the former book has a grass-fed operation up in Alaska of all places, and also tells of other folks from Grande Prairie, Alberta and Montana as well as others in the south that have grass-fed operations that do not rely on supplement-grain like corn or barley.  The only time I have been able to get my hands on that book is from the library.  The latter book is one I have already purchased, and is too for those who live both in the north and south who want to raise grass-fed cattle or other livestock.  It's an excellent book, helping those beginners and dreamers to lay out plans of rotational grazing for various livestock of interest, as well as laying out plans for marketing their meat/livestock.  I haven't quite read through it entirely yet, but I know I will in my spare time.

I haven't looked into getting that book by Salatin, but I reckon it is a good book to have.  I think I will see if I can purchase that as well.








Now there's something else I have to speak my mind about, to everyone else on here.  This is a back-yard cows forum, right?  Which means that there shouldn't be a limitation on who can speak about whatever they feel, be it conventionally raising cattle or the niche-market grass-fed approach.  I heard tell that a thread got deleted on here because of someone asking a simple, innocent question about grass-feeding cattle, and something or someone got a little offended by this post.  I really couldn't make sense of that; one, because BYCows should be for EVERYONE who is interested in raising cattle; not just for you bigger conventional producers who've got the guts to shut down a thread made by someone who was just asking a simple question on the same sort of thing that I was asking about in my OP.  Two, Back-yard cows should mean back-yard cows for those who want to raise a few cows on a few acres anyway they want, not just for the bigger producers.

Now don't take that as something to be offended by, but if you do, that's your problem, and my apologies if you do get offended by the above.  BUT, this is something that me and no doubt a few others noticed time and time again on here, and its something that I just felt needed to be addressed.  Now, if you mods want to lock this thread because of what I just said, fine, so be it.  But I should say to you folks who want to go the unconventional way of raising cattle to not be afraid to ask questions.  There are plenty of graziers like me and BK that would be happy to answer your questions.

Well, there's my rant for the day.  Have a good one.


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## Farmer Kitty (May 3, 2009)

The thread was moved not deleted. Please, don't go on hear say. It wasn't locked due to being about grass fed and there are other threads with people asking about grass fed here.


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## Imissmygirls (May 3, 2009)

On the contrary, I expected this forum to cater to back yard cows rather than commercial herds. 
AS a person who grew up on a commercial  family run dairy farm and then had a true backyard cow ( ok front yard cos my house is in the back of the property), it is really two different ways of management.
 You can take the principles of the commercial herd and convert to backyard cow, but I can't really think of any way it goes in reverse.

It's fortunate to have moderators who have commercial herds because the more animals you have, the more likely they have run into unusual situations or the more likely they can describe the normal.
IMHO the folks in charge do a very good and fair job of straddling the middle.


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## Imissmygirls (May 3, 2009)

In addition I see much more of a difference in management techniques between beef and dairy.  They may both have 4 legs and 4 stomachs, but the brain and body is very different.


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## Farmer Kitty (May 3, 2009)

Imissmygirls, thank you. It's nice to know that I've walk the line correctly!


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## WildRoseBeef (May 4, 2009)

Imissmygirls said:
			
		

> On the contrary, I expected this forum to cater to back yard cows rather than commercial herds.
> AS a person who grew up on a commercial  family run dairy farm and then had a true backyard cow ( ok front yard cos my house is in the back of the property), it is really two different ways of management.
> You can take the principles of the commercial herd and convert to backyard cow, but I can't really think of any way it goes in reverse.
> 
> ...


Well, for those points I can't really say I don't agree with you.  However, with your definition of commercial going to small-scale but not vice versa seems to be a bit misleading to me...unless you can explain it further for me.


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## Nifty (May 4, 2009)

For the record:  This forum is for anyone interested in raising cows... 1 or 1,000.   Of course those with a huge herd of cattle will probably tend not to visit this forum because they will already know what they need and probably are too busy to visit a cow community... but if they need info or want to be active here, then they are all welcome.

As long as the rules are kept, we allow the comments / discussions.    We don't allow people to belittle others even if they disagree with their opinions.


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## WildRoseBeef (May 4, 2009)

All right, thanks for that Nifty.


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## Imissmygirls (May 4, 2009)

WRB, I guess the main difference I see that the principles don't reverse is that mean old thing $$.  Commercial herds have to make money. ( OK , we all know that some are just tax deductions, but that's another story)  But the principle of  commercial herds is to make enough money so the farmer can live a somewhat decent life. That fact alone colors much of the farm life ranging from minimizing vet bills, feed bills, yet keeping animals healthy to make a profit to buying the correct breed and breeding to be profitable. No use buying a dairy cow that doesn't produce to a certain standard or a beef that doesn't produce to a standard of meat. I still can hear Pop say " We can't run this business on sympathy"
Family cows, on the other hand, have MUCH more leeway in all of these. Yes, the family wants to save/make $ on it but if it is a breakeven , they will survive, and some will subsidize.  I know we certainly did not make money on our family cow or heifers, but I wasn't raising them to make money. I had different principles leading me: feeding the family and providing education for my kids.
OK, the one thing I can say that family cow has it over commercial herd is in the teaching of children. You don't generally get the interaction/teaching with a commercial herd that is possible with smaller.  
Actually, I think MissKitty has the best of both worlds. Herd small enough to personalize and (hopefully) large enough to make a profit.


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## WildRoseBeef (May 4, 2009)

Imissmygirls said:
			
		

> WRB, I guess the main difference I see that the principles don't reverse is that mean old thing $$.  Commercial herds have to make money. ( OK , we all know that some are just tax deductions, but that's another story)  But the principle of  commercial herds is to make enough money so the farmer can live a somewhat decent life. That fact alone colors much of the farm life ranging from minimizing vet bills, feed bills, yet keeping animals healthy to make a profit to buying the correct breed and breeding to be profitable. No use buying a dairy cow that doesn't produce to a certain standard or a beef that doesn't produce to a standard of meat. I still can hear Pop say " We can't run this business on sympathy"
> Family cows, on the other hand, have MUCH more leeway in all of these. Yes, the family wants to save/make $ on it but if it is a breakeven , they will survive, and some will subsidize.  I know we certainly did not make money on our family cow or heifers, but I wasn't raising them to make money. I had different principles leading me: feeding the family and providing education for my kids.
> OK, the one thing I can say that family cow has it over commercial herd is in the teaching of children. You don't generally get the interaction/teaching with a commercial herd that is possible with smaller.
> Actually, I think MissKitty has the best of both worlds. Herd small enough to personalize and (hopefully) large enough to make a profit.


I see now.  It was really late when I asked that so I guess I wasn't thinking about what you said more clearly than you did now.  Thanks.


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## kstaven (May 6, 2009)

You have more leeway with animals when you cater to niche markets also.


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