# Parasite Management - OSU Seminars (Goats & Sheep) - F.D. notes pg10



## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

If this is your first time reading this thread - please start by reading the condensed version:  http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt 

I've decided to attend a series of programs put on by my extension office.  The first one begins tonight.  They focus specifically on goats and sheep in this...although most of the talk and studies revolve around sheep I am told that I can apply most or all of it to goats as well.

They talked about the new class of medicine that has been approved in New Zealand and Australia but are unsure of when it will be available in the US.  And were cautioning that if we gain access to this new medicine that if we were to use it as we have the current classes that we've had for the past 40 years then we would develop a resistance to it in as little as 3-5 years!  So their focus is to develop management skills and techniques that will change the producers way of doing things and hopefully lessen the damage that we've already done with the overuse of chemical dewormers.


About the course:


> A series of evening programs followed by a field day that will explore parasite biology, management of drug resistant worms, and various grazing strategies (including use of chicory & other plants) to help control worms.


From their newsletter:


> Internal parasite control continues to be one of the most important and difficult to manage health issues for sheep and goat farmers.  Traditional control strategies involving preventive or suppressive treatments with dewormers have led to widespread resistance of parasites to the drugs we currently have available.
> 
> Over the last several years several Extension Educators, researchers, and farmers in Ohio and West Virginia have been involved in various projects to develop or demonstrate strategies to assist in controlling internal parasites.  During the last two years we have been funded by a North Central Region Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education grant to determine whether forage chicory might have activity against internal parasites under conditions typical of farms in our region.  We have learned a lot about chicory and made some very interesting observations about parasite survival over winter and during summer grazing as well as the potential use of non-traditional grazing strategies.  This summer we will offer a series of three internet-based meetings followed by a field day at one of our project farms to discuss and demonstrate parasite biology, management of drug resistant worms, and various grazing strategies, including use of chicory and other plants, to help control worms.


About the Field Day:


> At the field day attendees will have a chance to receive hands-on FAMACHA training, learn about using non-traditional forages in a grazing program for managing parasitism, and see examples of various forages and fencing options.


_The entire process should be interesting and I am especially interested in the Field Day, when they will be offering FAMANCHA training and of course I'll get my first taste of lamb_ 

About the classes:


> Basic Parasite Biology and Control Concepts
> 
> life cycle description focusing on H. contortus
> why/how dewormer resistance develops
> ...


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm attending it as well. Also signed up for the field day in Wooster on Aug 27. I'm looking forward to it.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2011)

Elevan - did the handout attachment come through for you? There was no attachment on my email.


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## Snowhunter (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm interested to see what you report back w/El!!!

Our Extenstion is putting one on here, but it was too pricey for us to attend


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2011)

This one is free except for the field day. The field day is a whopping $15.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 4, 2011)

Two points:

1) It's impossible to "graze" chicory because it's not grass -- it's browse.
2) Browsing instead of grazing has *always* been a way to help prevent parasite problems in goats.

Not sure how that could be a new discovery..  

Having said that, I'd be really interested to hear about their "interesting observations about parasite survival over winter," considering I've been harping on a certain aspect of this for a couple years now..  The way a barberpole overwinters (in the host -- not on the ground!) is the only real chink I've been able to find in the venerable barberpole's armor..  That is to say, they're at their lowest numbers and highest concentrations when they're overwintering *inside* the herd itself..  Once ya figure that out, controlling them should really just be a matter of finding *something* that will effect a high rate of kill on dormant larvae.

Pretty simple, really..  Or should be, anyway..

And just for the record, if they come out there and say "...so when we get these new drugs from Aus and NZ, we advise using them in the dead of winter to kill the dormant larvae of barberpole worms..." I'm going to be firstly amazed that someone else actually figured it out, and secondly, a little irritated that I've had my thunder stolen..


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## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

Karen - I just found out about it a little while ago.  The first one is being held live in Morrow County...so I'm just going in person.  The next 2 I'll attend via internet and then the Field Day of course will be in person.

And yeah, the first 3 are free and the field day is $15.00


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2011)

I signed up about a week ago but can't make it to any of the places so I will be on the internet. I'm hoping that they will resend the handouts. I would hate to miss out.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2011)

http://vet.osu.edu/extension/sare/parasite_control

CM - here is the link. I bet you could still join and listen to the last 2 seminars.


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## Beekissed (Aug 4, 2011)

> Two points:
> 
> 1) It's impossible to "graze" chicory because it's not grass -- it's browse.
> 2) Browsing instead of grazing has *always* been a way to help prevent parasite problems in goats.
> ...


I don't know that it is a new discovery, as it has been on the Sheep 101 site for quite some time, I imagine.  It sounds as if a ruminant can indeed "graze" chicory.... 




> *Alternative Forages*Some pasture plants have anthelmintic properties, such as those containing condensed tannins. Research has shown that sheep grazing tannin-rich forages have lower fecal egg counts than animals grazing traditional grass pastures. The tannins may also decrease the hatch rate of worm eggs and larval development in feces.
> 
> Forage species which contain high levels of condensed tannins include sericea lespedeza, birdsfoot trefoil, and *chicory*. Sericea lespedeza is a warm, season legume. Birdsfoot trefoil is a long-lived perennial legume. *Chicory* is a low-growing, leafy perennial. Generally speaking, trees and shrubs contain higher levels of tannins than pasture grasses, and tropical legumes contain more condensed tannins than temperate legumes./////


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## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

It was an interesting first seminar...there will be 2 more followed by a field day.

Give me a little bit to type out my notes and I'll share.  Karen, I hope you'll any observations or anything that I miss.


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## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

Here are my notes from the first seminar:

Let me start by saying that Dr. Shulaw was very specific in stating that this will / may work in OHIO and maybe our neighboring states but it is not to be construed to states further away than that.

Ok...

Today's seminar was given by Dr. William P. Shulaw, an extension sheep vet.
This seminar and Studies discussed were funded by North Central Sustainable Agriculture Research & Education - and grants are available for farmers who would like to apply.

Finding a vet who specializes in small ruminants was stressed and it was mentioned that you can use the Find A Vet option at www.aasrp.org (American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners)

The basic principal of this first seminar was:  *Parasite Management = Pasture Management* 
And it was stressed that all parasites are local.  This means that every farm is different...every city or state is different - and you must understand that.

Life of the worm:
Eggs in manure can live for a few weeks under favorable conditions.
Moisture is required for egg survival - so extremely dry conditions can kill it.
Eggs also don't do well in freezing conditions (especially freeze - thaw - freeze)
Eggs can hatch as early as in as early as 48 hours and last as long as they don't have "killing" conditions.
Rain is often the "release" factor that causes a hatch.
Stage 1 & 2 larvae aren't very hardy and can die easily.
Stage 3 (L-3) larvae keep their stage 2 shell and gain their stage 3 shell as well and are therefore very hardy and therefore harder to kill.
Stage 3 (L-3) larvae are the INFECTIVE stage...this is when they climb a stalk to seek a host to eat them (2-4 inches off the ground max)
In good conditions the egg can hatch in 48 hours and go to stage 3 larvae (L-3) at a 4 day minimum.

What worms:
Nematodirus, Cooperia, Trichostrongylus, Telodorsagia (Ostertagia)  -  These worms will cause a goat / sheep to be unthrifty, a poor doer and cause diarrhea.  They are not blood suckers and do not cause death.
Hemonchus Contortus (Barberpole)  -  This is the worst worm that we are dealing with.  It is a voracious bloodsucker and can kill the animal.  It is very small only about 1/2 inch long as "adult".  A heavy infestation can remove 1/5 of the animal's blood in 24 hours.
_
From here on we will talk only of the Barberpole..._

When are they worst (in OHIO):
From March to October
2 weeks prekid / lamb to 6 weeks post kid/ lamb

Worms start to become a problem for kids / lambs at approximately 6 weeks of age.
Around 7-9 months of age kids / lambs will begin to develop some immunity to some worms.

Just because your animals aren't dying doesn't mean you don't have a worm problem.

A study that included 40 some farms:
H. Contortus (Barberpole) was found to be resistant to the benzimidazole class of dewormers (Valbazen) on 98% of farms, levamisole on 54% of farms, ivermectin on 76% of farms and moxidectin (Cydectin) on 24% of farms.
Resistance to all 3 classes of dewormers was detected on 48% of farms and resistance to all three classes PLUS moxidectin was detected on 17% of farms!
That study was done in December 2008

Please remember that if you have a resistance to ivermectin that the worms have the gene potential to develop resistance to moxidectin (Cydectin) too.  So while Cydectin is more potent than Ivomec you need to be careful not to underdose.

In sheep there are 3 classes of dewormer available by label:
Macrocyclic lactones - Ivermectin (Ivomec) and moxidectin (Cydectin)
Benzimidazoles - Valbazen
Levamisole

For goats were have by label:
Fenbendazole (Safeguard & Pancur) approved for non-lactating goats
Rumatel Medicated Premix 88 for lactating and non-lactating goats
Use of any other labeled for cattle or sheep is extra label and should not be used without vet prescription

*All programs that rely strictly on the use of chemical dewormers will eventually fail as a result of development of resistance.*
The question is how soon it will happen to YOUR farm.

REFUGIA = That portion of a worm population that escapes treatment of a dewormer when used.  This is a NEED to have for this worm.  You want a certain % of worms left in the pasture (10-20%) while you treat the 80-90% that are in the animals...allowing for only unresistant worms to be ingested.  Remember that your dewormer will not kill them all.  You are not going to eliminate the worms - you must learn to live with them and treat them appropriately and treat only those that truly need it.

Once resistance is present on your farm it is likely to be a permanent situation.  Resistance happens when worms have a frequent exposure to a drug.

A frequent cause of resistance is UNDER dosing.
How?
under estimating on weight (a scale is recommended to avoid this...weight tapes are not always accurate for all animals)
incorrect dose calculation
incorrect dilution of product
improperly calibrated or faulty equipment (always check dosing syringes...a leaking gasket on a drenching syringe can cause an underdose)

Another problem is treating all animals and then moving them to a "safe" or "clean" pasture...as this allows them to carry resistant worms to the new pasture.
Unless you use one of the following methods that method won't work.
Options when using "clean" pasture method:
Pastures previously grazed by horses or cattle
Hayfield regrowth
Spring Planted annuals (tilling of soil will bury and kill the egg / larvae)
Crop aftermath (cornfield or other crop after harvest)

Alternatives to preserve a REFUGIA:
Treat selectively with FAMACHA and body condition score; then move to rotational graze / browse
Leave heaviest 10-15% untreated, then move to rotational graze / browse
Treat all animals with a non-persistent dewormer and leave on contaminated pasture for 3-5 days
Treat lambs / kids, but not dams, if lambs / kids are not weaned
Treat thin and twin / triplet bearing dams only (this is the best option for dam treating)

Persistent Dewormers:
Ivomec (injected)
Dectomax (injected)
Cydectin (more persistent than Ivomec and Dectomax)

What does persistent dewormer mean?
It means that the drug stays in the tissue a longer time when it is injected.  The drug settles into the fat of the animal.
Cydectin will stay in the tissues for 35 days post administration when given orally.

_Things needed to UN-learn:
Treating of adult animals when there is no real need.  DO NOT DO THIS....it causes resistance._

*Need to implement a SMART DRENCHING PROGRAM
more info at http://scsrpc.org
Know the resistance status of the herd or flock
Sound pasture management
Keep resistant worms off the farm
Administer the proper dose
Utilize host physiology
Selective treatment - FAMACHA

Make sure when drenching that your drench pipe is in the BACK of the mouth to ensure the drug goes into the proper part of the stomach.  Administering in the front of the mouth can lead to drug resistance due to the dewormer going into the wrong part of the stomach first.*

Knowing the resistance of your herd or flock:
Perform a FECRT or DrenchRite
Repeat every 2-3 years

Pasture Management:
Reduce stocking rates if you're having a problem
Use Annual plantings, Hayfield rotation or alternative species grazing
For goats - provide browse type forage

DON'T BUY RESISTANT WORMS!
Quarantine new arrivals for 30-60 days
Deworm with 2 or even 3 classes of dewormers (make Cydectin one of them)
Perform a FEC to confirm no eggs are being passed
Expose to your farms worms post quarantine - put onto a contaminated field

Remember that goats metabolize faster and therefor require a higher dosage to work - DO NOT UNDERDOSE!

Concept behind Selective Treatment:
Parasite numbers are not equally distributed in groups of animals.
20-30% of your animals are producing 75% of your worms

FAMACHA is highly recommended for selective treatment and is ONLY effective for Barberpole worm.

A note on bottle jaw:
If your sheep or goat has bottle jaw - diagnosis can be confirmed by pressing your thumb into the swollen area.  If it is indeed bottle jaw the imprint will stay for 8-10 seconds.  Bottle jaw is often a symptom of Barberpole infestation.

Body condition scoring was also discussed and may be an indicator of animals that may be harboring worms.
The Five Point Check for targeted selective treatment of internal parasites in small ruminants has been developed but is not yet available in the US.  There is a score card much like the FAMACHA for this as well.

Plants with anti-parasitic properties are being evaluated.  Along with rotational grazing with "safe" pasture plants.

Safe pasture plants would be:
turnips, rape, other brassicas
brown mid-rib sorghum, corn and millet

Plants with anti-parasitic activity:
Have either a direct or indirect effect on parasites via secondary compounds such as condensed tannins and sesquiterpene lactones
Condensed tannins have the effect on mineral or protein status of the host.  Which can get a by-pass protein effect increasing the protein that is actually available to the animals.
They also make the pasture less hospital to parasites
Examples:
sericea lespedeza
birdsfoot trefoil
forage chicory
sulla
sainfoin 
(All of these definitely grow large enough to be considered browse for goats)

Dry lotting is another option and you will have better control over your parasite load if you choose to dry lot.  But this session was devoted to pasture management = parasite management.

Question & Answer Session:

Q: Do dewormers kill all stages of worm?
A: Levamisole does not kill immature worms, Ivomec kills all stages, Valbazen doesn't kill the overwintered eggs

Q: Is there a benefit to kidding in the winter over the spring in worm prevention?
A: Not really much of a different, you'll just see the worm problem in the kids a little later of age

Q: What about mixed species grazing? ie: chickens and goats
A: It was the Doctor's opinion that goats and chickens together would result in a reduced parasite load in the pasture
Dr. Shulaw was clear to point out that the mix of species co-grazing / browsing matters...sheep and goats together will not reduce your load but may increase it.

Q: Mowing fields on a regular basis?
A: Mowing very low in hot / dry weather on a regular basis (weekly)....maybe

Q: Natural dewormers...DE, garlic, wormwood?
A: Very little scientific data...almost none behind it.  Doesn't mean that they won't find something, but it will most likely be an extract (more potent).  A friend of his did a study on garlic and found no effect against worms.

````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Ok, those are my notes and excerpts from the slides / handout.  If you attended online, please feel free to add anything to the discussion.  There will be 2 more seminars which I plan to attend online and will update you on.  Then I'll be attending the Field Day to get my FAMACHA training.


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## redtailgal (Aug 4, 2011)

x


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## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I know it doesnt apply to my area but it was still very informative.  Thanks for taking the time to type all that up.
> 
> I am interested in this 5 point check. Wonder if I will find anything online?
> 
> ...


I'm sure that there are plenty of principals that you can apply to your area.  I think the biggest thing that he was stressing with the Ohio and neighboring states thing was that if you are in the west, southwest or the south you're going to have a very different climate and climate does play a role in all of this.

I especially interested in the condensed tannins and their anti-parasitic properties.  I'm going to do a trial on my farm using that principal and see where it takes me.

I'm trying to find the exact website that he used in his slide for the 5 Point System.  I find several when I google it but I want the one he used...and the slide handout is really hard to read the web address on.  When I get it nailed down, I'll post it here.


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## elevan (Aug 5, 2011)

Here's the link to the article by G.F. Bath about the Five Point Check  (although it will cost you to view entirely).

I'll see what I can do about getting a free link to the information.


ETA:

HERE you go!!  Here's a power point presentation that explains both FAMACHA and The Five Point Check 

I'd like to get my hands on one of those HAEMONCHUS DIPSTICK TESTS! Too bad they aren't available in the US yet...


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## redtailgal (Aug 5, 2011)

zz


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 5, 2011)

Our goats are on 100% browse as their forage rather than grazing.  I'm interested to read through and see what their opinion is on the impact this component of parasite management actually has as part of an integrated parasite management program.  We've never grazed them so I don't have any comparison.  I'll see if I can catch the online stuff after work today.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 5, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> http://vet.osu.edu/extension/sare/parasite_control
> 
> CM - here is the link. I bet you could still join and listen to the last 2 seminars.


Registered.  Thanks for the link Karen!


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## Goatherd (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks Emily for taking the time to post what you learned.  It seems like a very interesting and informative conference.  Much appreciated.


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## Roll farms (Aug 5, 2011)

Elevan, I think that slideshow is the best.post.ever. on this forum.  Thank you.


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## DonnaBelle (Aug 5, 2011)

Thanks Emily, for taking time to post all the information from OSU.

I know we all need to learn as much as possible to take good care of our goats.

Knowledge is power, I forget who said that.

DonnaBelle


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## ksalvagno (Aug 5, 2011)

Looks like you got it all Emily. I think the only thing is that I got the impression that he would rather not see multiple species in the same pasture but said it could be done with the right animals. I think he mentioned that he would rather see chickens in the field after the goats and use those 2 species with rotating.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Our goats are on 100% browse as their forage rather than grazing.  I'm interested to read through and see what their opinion is on the impact this component of parasite management actually has as part of an integrated parasite management program.  We've never grazed them so I don't have any comparison.  I'll see if I can catch the online stuff after work today.


Dr Shulaw said that that is actually better than grazing because browse is usually higher than 4 inches. The higher up the animal is reaching to eat something, the less likely the parasite will be there. You are lucky that you have that. My whole property is just basically a nice level field of grass.


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## redtailgal (Aug 5, 2011)

z


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## elevan (Aug 5, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Looks like you got it all Emily. I think the only thing is that I got the impression that he would rather not see multiple species in the same pasture but said it could be done with the right animals. I think he mentioned that he would rather see chickens in the field after the goats and use those 2 species with rotating.


He believed that rotational species grazing was best, yes.  But when grazing multiple species - getting the species mix right was important. He felt that chickens with goats could be a good fit in the fight for Barberpole (we weren't talking other worms...and I know there is debate about them and coccidia)...you should never rotate goats and sheep though as they share the same worms.


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## elevan (Aug 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Our goats are on 100% browse as their forage rather than grazing.  I'm interested to read through and see what their opinion is on the impact this component of parasite management actually has as part of an integrated parasite management program.  We've never grazed them so I don't have any comparison.  I'll see if I can catch the online stuff after work today.


Keep in mind that Dr. Shulaw is a SHEEP vet and sheep tend to graze...so he kept falling back into sheep lingo.  He did say that it is important that they are eating forage that is above 4 inches off the ground...so whether that is sheep grazing or goats browsing it still applies.  He said that goats have the advantage over sheep as long as the goats have browse to eat since that keeps them out of the danger zone for the L-3 infective larvae.

edited for spelling


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## redtailgal (Aug 5, 2011)

z


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## ksalvagno (Aug 5, 2011)

Basically yes. But there are other things to consider too like how populated they are and what the weather has been like. It still comes down to no one is immune from parasites but certainly browsing helps. I don't think anyone would ever say you never have to have a fecal done or check your goats eyelids from time to time. But if that is your situation, I bet you have to worm less than I would.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 5, 2011)

Right- it's just part of our program but we still fecal and worm when necessary.


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## elevan (Aug 5, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> OK, so maybe I am in over my head.
> 
> question, possibly stupid, but a question none the less.
> 
> Are goats that are heavily browsed in a woods setting, eating off trees and shrubery etc, less likely to have a parasite problem, than say those who are grazed in a grass setting, eating grass growing on the ground where they poop?


No stupid or dumb questions in my book.  

According to Dr. Shulaw as long as they are eating at a height above 4" off the ground you're gonna experience less of a problem than when they eat things at a lower level.  The type of plant material supposedly plays a role too...which is why they were discussing the plants that have a condensed tannin level.  And weather and time of day plays an important role too.  Dr. Shulaw said that grazing or browsing in early morning when the dew is still on the plants has a higher incidence of worm infection (remember they need moisture to move).  After a heavy rain you'll have a broader area of graze / browse infection too.

Someone sitting in front of me posed this question:
They have had their farm in their family for 60 years and have never had sheep or goats on the land.  They do have wild deer cross through though.
Their question was based on the fact that they just got 5 sheep who tested negative on FEC for worm problems.  Does the fact that they have "virgin" land and "wormless" sheep mean that they won't have to deal with a worm problem?
The Dr's answer was that they would probably enjoy a 3 year period of bliss followed by a problem.


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## redtailgal (Aug 5, 2011)

x


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## elevan (Aug 5, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Bliss is nice.
> 
> The fecal came back good on my boys. Vet said if I wasnt gonna keep them on a regular worming schedule then there was no point in worming them now.   It's odd really, I have never wormed them. But then again, I havent had to worm a dog in over 5 years
> 
> ...


You can get fecals done for a third of what I have to pay!  

I'd ask the vet if he knows where you can get FAMACHA training in your area...or ask your county extension agent.

I think fecals are an important part of the process, whether they are being done by a vet or by you on farm (if you have equipment and knowledge).  Even if you're using the FAMACHA and the Five Point Check you're gonna need to do fecals every so often as verification that what you're doing is working.


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## elevan (Aug 5, 2011)

Thought I'd share some additional info that I found on condensed tannins:



> Proanthocyanidin (PA or PAC), also known as procyanidin, oligomeric proanthocyanidin (OPC), leukocyanidin, leucoanthocyanin and condensed tannins, is a class of flavanols. Proanthocyanidins are essentially polymer chains of flavonoids such as catechins.
> 
> Proanthocyanidins can be found in many plants, most notably apples (with some of the highest amounts found in the Red Delicious and Granny Smith varieties), pine bark, cinnamon, cocoa, grape seed, grape skin (procyanidins and prodelphinidins). However, bilberry, cranberry, black currant, green tea, black tea, and other plants also contain these flavonoids. The berries of chokeberry, specifically black chokeberry, have the highest measured concentrations of proanthocyanidin found in any plant to date.


So in addition to the plants already suggested you might be able to provide some of these as browse for your goats if you're implementing the condensed tannins into your plan.


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## JusticeFamilyFarm (Aug 5, 2011)

Wow.  Great info.  Thank you so much for taking the time to post all of this so that we can all benefit.


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## Ms. Research (Aug 6, 2011)

Thank you Elevan.  I too appreciate the time it takes to do the research and then put out what you found.

I think it's interesting concept regarding the worms and becoming tolerant to the drugs being used to get rid of them.  Anything will build up a tolerance.  Just look at children and antibiotics.  If medication is used wisely, like I've read in this informative thread, it will work.  Preventive, if I'm understanding right, is not MORE medicine but testing and constant vigilance.   And then applying the medication?  

I've never truly raised livestock, but hoping someday I will.  Knowing this information will help with "first hand" experience.  And every farm is different and must be looked at and treated according to that farm, right?   Learning what works best for you.    No matter how well you want to make things, it's still TRIAL and ERROR.


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## elevan (Aug 6, 2011)

Ms. Research said:
			
		

> Thank you Elevan.  I too appreciate the time it takes to do the research and then put out what you found.
> 
> I think it's interesting concept regarding the worms and becoming tolerant to the drugs being used to get rid of them.  Anything will build up a tolerance.  Just look at children and antibiotics.  If medication is used wisely, like I've read in this informative thread, it will work.  Preventive, if I'm understanding right, is not MORE medicine but testing and constant vigilance.   And then applying the medication?
> 
> I've never truly raised livestock, but hoping someday I will.  Knowing this information will help with "first hand" experience.  And every farm is different and must be looked at and treated according to that farm, right?   Learning what works best for you.    No matter how well you want to make things, it's still TRIAL and ERROR.


Yes, prevention is always the FIRST step of the battle.  You cannot prevent worms with medication, but there are other ways to accomplish your objectives.

It is VERY important to realize that each farm has it's own "climate" so to speak.  Let's say I abused dewormers on my property but my neighbor did not...I'd end up with resistant worms and the neighbor would still have drugs that work while they wouldn't for me.  So it's extremely important to know what dewormers to use and when to use them.

Knowledge is power and yes, some knowledge comes from first hand experience and trial and error is part of that.

I wish you luck in your future endeavors into livestock


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## freemotion (Aug 6, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Thought I'd share some additional info that I found on condensed tannins:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I missed the original reference to condensed tannins.....where is this mentioned?  Is it used daily in a preventative maintenance way or as an actual treatment?

These substances are part of my family supplement regimen and have made enormous changes in our health in various ways.  So I am VERY curious to know what they have to do with wormy goats.....I'm thinking that a very healthy goat is not so susceptible to parasites.


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## elevan (Aug 6, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From my notes in post #14:



> Plants with anti-parasitic activity:
> Have either a direct or indirect effect on parasites via secondary compounds such as *condensed tannins and sesquiterpene lactones*
> Condensed tannins have the effect on mineral or protein status of the host.  Which can get a by-pass protein effect increasing the protein that is actually available to the animals.
> They also make the pasture less hospital to parasites
> ...


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## Goatmasta (Aug 6, 2011)

Thank You


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## freemotion (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, thank you!  Do you remember anything else about this....was there any more detail on these sentences:  





> Have either a direct or indirect effect on parasites via secondary compounds such as condensed tannins and sesquiterpene lactones
> Condensed tannins have the effect on mineral or protein status of the host.  Which can get a by-pass protein effect increasing the protein that is actually available to the animals.


I'm only familiar with the studies done with these substances in humans...the results are pretty amazing and QUICK.  But I don't know of any studies done on humans that were wormy!


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## Roll farms (Aug 7, 2011)

Elevan, I hope you don't think I'm hopping in where I don't belong, but I wanted to comment to RTG.  Once again I thank you for posting this info.  Sorta what I've been standing on a chair and screaming here for 2 yrs but w/ a LOT more detail and explanation.

RedTail, I'm thrilled your boys are pretty clean.  

I'd have been shocked, honestly, if you'd said otherwise....w/ as much attention / time out to run and play as they get from you, I'm sure if they had been wormy you would have seen signs....Plus I doubt you're overstocking them on small pasture.  

What I want to point out is *if* they did get barberpole somehow, for instance if you took in a rescue carrying it - their FEC could literally go from 'few' to 'deadly' in less than 3 mos.  I think the fecals are a wonderful idea (great way to catch the other bugs that won't kill quickly, just cause them to be unthrifty)...but that whole 5 point thing - which eyelids are only part of, and fecals are only part of - is pretty much something I've lived by for the last 10 years....keep an eye on everything, coat, mucous membranes, body score, etc.  If you see any changes, have a fecal ran sooner.

Just didn't want you to have a false sense of security if you saw a bad sign and thought, "Well, they just had a fecal 6 wks ago and they were fine....must not be worms."

OK, done being , back to


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 7, 2011)

Not only that, but I don't want my goats to be so anemic their eyelid color is affected before I worm them.  I want to treat them well before it gets to that point.  Those relying on FAMACHA alone (IMO) are waiting until the animal's health is already compromised to do something for them.


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## redtailgal (Aug 7, 2011)

x


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## freemotion (Aug 7, 2011)

He stole your cows??


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## elevan (Aug 7, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Yes, thank you!  Do you remember anything else about this....was there any more detail on these sentences:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Supposedly each seminar will provide more information...so hopefully we'll be able to obtain more information on that in the next 2 sessions.


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## elevan (Aug 7, 2011)

Roll - no problem.  Jump in whenever you want.  That goes for everyone else too.  I started this thread to share what I was learning and to hopefully gain additional insight from others too.

```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

I personally plan to use some alternative condensed tannins within my herd on a couple who are my herd's_ 20% that carry the 75% worm load._
I'm not gonna grow additional browse as I don't have the equipment to till under my field and plant it. 
I'll share my idea here as long as no one tells me that I've lost my mind  
I'm going to brew a very strong tea (yes, tea) and drench those particular goats on a weekly basis.  I plan to add lemon to the tea to counteract tea's ability to bind iron and prevent it from absorbing.  I'll need to provide a calcium supplement as tea also leaches the calcium from the body (in humans...I'm going with the assumption in goats too).
I plan to run my trial for 6 months in only the part of my herd that I've already noticed are my "problem" and see what results are throughout and at the end.  I will, of course, share my results with you all.
Those goats that aren't part of the trial will receive a chemical dewormer only if needed.
Wish me luck


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## redtailgal (Aug 7, 2011)

z


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## elevan (Aug 7, 2011)

RTG...we are so long lost "sisters"    except I'm a hot tempered German with some cherokee and ute thrown into the mix way back...and believe me I understand dysfunctional and shared land issues (I've been told by some I should write a memoir instead of a cookbook   )


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## Roll farms (Aug 7, 2011)

Cherokee, blackfoot, German...and Irish 

Temper?  What temper?  That's just my genetics.....


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## elevan (Aug 7, 2011)

Roll...don't want to make you mad!


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## redtailgal (Aug 7, 2011)

z


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## redtailgal (Aug 8, 2011)

x


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## elevan (Aug 8, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> OK, so on the tannin stuff.
> 
> Lespediza grows abundantly around here.  Rabbits love it.
> 
> ...


The discussion was on using it fresh.  But like I said I'm gonna drench with one dried.  Mine will be concentrated though  :/  It's a good question.  You should go back to page 2 and register for the online seminars coming up.  NSmithurmond is in Georgia and registered.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 8, 2011)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I don't know that it is a new discovery, as it has been on the Sheep 101 site for quite some time, I imagine.  It sounds as if a ruminant can indeed "graze" chicory....


Animals can't graze anything but grass, because grazing is the act of eating grass...  Browsing is eating weeds, tree leaves, and other forage that is *not* grass -- like chicory.  

It's mostly semantic, but at the same time, it's not *just* semantic because goats are natural browsers and barberpole worm eggs hatch out in *grass*..  Not weeds or small trees or chicory.  

Putting goats on grass is what causes us most of our parasite problems.  If you keep your goats on browse instead of grass -- whether that browse consists of chicory or blackberries or thistle or what have you -- you're *going* to eliminate a whole lot of your parasite problem.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 8, 2011)

Ok, so I just read the synopsis.  My impression is that it's good information, but they really had no business calling it "New Ways" because I really didn't see anything *new* in there at all..  Like Rolls said, it read like a recap of what several of us have been professing for years.

I do appreciate the fact that he at least mentioned that barberpole eggs don't overwinter well on pasture.  Maybe if enough people start collectively realizing that, someone besides me will go "So hey, why don't we just deworm with an effective larvacide in mid-winter?"  It's pretty much a no-brainer, but I'm really beginning to think that's going to need to be said in some kind of a seminar by someone with a 'DVM' after their name before anyone will listen or put any research dollars into *proving* it.  

Oh well..  Thanks for typing it up, though!


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## redtailgal (Aug 8, 2011)

x


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## elevan (Aug 8, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok, so I just read the synopsis.  My impression is that it's good information, but they really had no business calling it "New Ways" because I really didn't see anything *new* in there at all..  Like Rolls said, it read like a recap of what several of us have been professing for years.
> 
> I do appreciate the fact that he at least mentioned that barberpole eggs don't overwinter well on pasture.  Maybe if enough people start collectively realizing that, someone besides me will go "So hey, why don't we just deworm with an effective larvacide in mid-winter?"  It's pretty much a no-brainer, but I'm really beginning to think that's going to need to be said in some kind of a seminar by someone with a 'DVM' after their name before anyone will listen or put any research dollars into *proving* it.
> 
> Oh well..  Thanks for typing it up, though!


I think calling it a NEW WAY is just easier for people to swallow than to look at them and say "Hey, farmers you've been doing it wrong and you need to change your ways".  People tend to respond better to something that is "NEW" as opposed to being asked to change because they've been wrong to begin with.  While I appreciate that you and Roll have been doing this type of thing already, obviously MANY others haven't or we wouldn't have the drug resistance problem to begin with.

This study was done in Ohio and West Virginia and 40 farms in Ohio took part (don't know how many in WV).  Since you're already following a lot of this on your farm, why don't you contact your county extension see if something similar is in the works in your state that you could participate in.  Or contact the funding partner to find out about grants and possibly run some trials on your farm.


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## elevan (Aug 8, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Yeah, I tried to register, but we have a cloud in the sky about 5 miles from here and it seems that my internet is terrified of clouds.  Service is not great right now (super SLOW).  I will try again tonight.
> 
> I have a large stand of Lespedizia out here.  I will have to check and see if there are different varieties (bet there are) to know what the properties of mine are.
> 
> ...


The next 2 online seminars are 8/18 and 8/25 from 7-9pm

I don't know about the lespedizia...

The chicory discussed was called Forage Chicory...the dr said it was related to the roadside blue flowered chicory.  Apparently chicory either produces good foliage or good roots depending on the type...you want the type that produces good foliage.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 8, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> This study was done in Ohio and West Virginia and 40 farms in Ohio took part (don't know how many in WV).  Since you're already following a lot of this on your farm, why don't you contact your county extension see if something similar is in the works in your state that you could participate in.  Or contact the funding partner to find out about grants and possibly run some trials on your farm.


Mmmyeah, I've contacted enough "experts" around here to know that I'm pretty much on my own..


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## Roll farms (Aug 8, 2011)

They did siminars sort of like this here in IN last year, ()Relics participated in them / posted a lot of info but not in the detail you have.  
They called them "Town Hall" meetings.


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## elevan (Aug 8, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> They did siminars sort of like this here in IN last year, ()Relics participated in them / posted a lot of info but not in the detail you have.
> They called them "Town Hall" meetings.


I'm an excellent note taker when I want to...comes from my past life as a corporate world executive assistant     Personally I like taking notes about parasites of goats much more than any subject from my past life.


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## elevan (Aug 17, 2011)

A reminder that the next installment will be tomorrow night from 7-9pm should anyone else want to sign up for it online...the link is on page 2 of this thread (thanks ksalvagno).


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks for sharing all of this with us!    I 'll be checking in tomorrow for the latest.


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## elevan (Aug 18, 2011)

Session #2 just ended.  Give me a bit and I'll type up notes for everyone.


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## redtailgal (Aug 18, 2011)

x


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## elevan (Aug 18, 2011)

Session #2 Notes (they gave us handouts that were pretty much their speech so made it easy on me)

Parasite Mangement: Lessons Learned and Farmer Applications

Speakers: Curt Cline, farmer
                 Rory Lewandowski, Extension Educator

Project:
Non-traditional Forages in a Managed Grazing System in Control of Gastrointestinal Parasites in Sheep (goats apply too)
*2-year (2009-2010) farm based study
*Non-traditional forages: Forage Feast Chicory & Brown Mid-Rib (BMR) Sorghum x Sudangrass
*Focus on early weaned lambs in a pasture based, managed grazing production system
*Goal: use alternative forages to reduce dependance on chemical dewormers
*3 Farmer Cooperators weigh in today from Athens, Knox and Wayne Counties (in Ohio)

Reasoning:
*Complete dependence on chemical dewormers is not a viable option
*Need to develop tools and an integrated strategy in the battle of the barberpole worm
*Lambs & Ewes (kids & does) are most susceptible to parasite infections
*Chicory may offer some anti-parasitic properties
*BMR could provide a safe pasture during the summer slump

Study Design:
*Each farm provided 2 groups of lambs with similar weights and ages. Each group = 20 lambs (60 day weaning age). One group for Chicory and one group for BMR
*Each farm established a 5 acre plot of chicory and a 5 acre plot of BMR
*All study lambs were weighed, FAMACHA scored and body condition scored at the beginning and end of each grazing pass.  Fecal samples were also collected each time lambs were handled.  In 2010 blood was drawn to determine packed cell volume.

Study Procedure:
*The plan: make at least 2 grazing passes through the chicory and BMR forages beginning in mid-July.
      *Each grazing period lasting 14-21 days
      *Between passes lambs would graze a cool season grass/legume pasture for 2-3 weeks
*Before and after each grazing pass chicory and BMR sampled for dry matter (DM) yield and sample collected for forage quality analysis
*Any lamb scoring 3 or higher FAMACHA was treated with a chemical dewormer
*Lambs needed to have some (preferably low) parasite level to test chicory effectiveness as an anti-parasitic
       *Therefore if a lamb was treated it meant either a delay in starting a grazing pass or that the lamb was dropped from the group

Expectations:
After using tillage to kill off any larvae - chicory and BMR were planted and then the following was expected to happen:
*Lambs enter first grazing pass of chicory & BMR in mid-July with low parasite levels
*Chicory and BMR would be high quality, provide "safe" pasture and allow lambs to gain weight while grazing
*Lambs on chicory would exhibit a decrease in parasite levels as measured by FEC

The Reality?
*There were some forage establishment problems.  One farm had a great stand of chicory, one farm was ok and one was over 50% weeds
           *Particularly a problem with the chicory
*Problems with parasite infections very early on in the lambs that weren't expected
*BMR loses quality the older it gets...the early parasite problems caused delays in getting lambs onto the BMR and therefore BMR quality was low

Chicory Issues:
Short lived perennial (3-4 yrs)
Weeds a problem in 2 of the 3 farms...ragweed in particular.
On the worst farm weeds were 52% with chicory making up only 48% of the field.
BUT...lambs grazed selectively eating off the leaves of the ragweed
       *a combined analysis of the chicory / ragweed showed 18% CP and 74% TDN
Frost heaving caused stand loss over the winter
[On one farm] there were stands of chicory that the sheep wouldn't touch...a reason was never determined.

BMR Issues:
Rapid growing, high tonnage warm season annual
Best quality at 24-36 inches height
Cannot each at heights below 24 inches due to high nitrate build up ...so must keep animals off it during this phase.
Above 36 inches and it starts to decline in quality quickly.
It's about a week to get from 24-36 inches  (7-10 days)
During that 7-10 days analysis is:  CP 14% and TDN 67%
One farmer decided to dry it and silage it...analysis of that was CP 4%...definitely not worth much more than as bedding at that point.

General Lessons Learned:
Every farm has some level of resistance
You need to do a Drench Rite Assay or Fecal Egg Count Reductions (FECRT) to determine what your resistance is
You need to understand the life cycle of the barberpole
              Review of Barberpole worm life cycle:
              [in ideal worm conditions]
              Complete life cycle in approx 23 days
              From egg to L3 (infective) larvae in 4 days
              L3 can survive on pasture for a very long time from 90-120 or more days unless a killing event happens
              5,000 eggs shed by every adult worm
Overwintered larvae are a bigger factor than previously thought.  Spring grazing of pastures used in the previous Fall should be avoided...use those from the previous summer instead.
Lambs / kids need some "safe" pastures
Nutrition is important.  Providing adequate nutrition can help keep worm loads in check because the animal is healthier to begin with.
Grazing / Browsing high is important...keeping the animal eating at above 6-8 inches will remove the problem but is virtually impossible.
In summer the majority of your worms are on your pasture (not in the animal)
Lambs / kids are VERY susceptible to parasite infections
Making more than one grazing pass across grass/legume paddocks with lambs has the potential to greatly increase the worm load
Time frame of the last time on pasture and how many eggs were shed during that time is a very important factor
Selective deworming and use of chemical dewormers as rescue should be practiced
It is important to record / track your animals FAMACHA scores
FAMACHA is a tool and must be used often and consistently to be helpful...check every 7-10 days.
Chicory could help suppress or reduce the wormload if the load is low to moderate.  But is unable to help if the burden is high to begin with.  It could be used as a piece of your integrated management strategy but it is not a silver bullet.
Lambs / kids are management intensive and you must pay attention to them.

Approaches to control:
1)Conquer [chemical dewormers]
    Since we don't have a new chemical coming out every 5 years this is impossible.  The reality is that nature will continue evolving and the parasite will always win if this
    is your strategy.
2)Co-Exist
   Understand the biology and lifecycle of the parasite and manage your farm accordingly
   Minimize lamb/kid time on pasture
   Maximize dry ewe / doe time on pastures
   Genetics - breed for parasite resistence
3)Avoidance
   Non-pasture systems
   Off season lambing / kidding in the FALL



What the farmers have decided to put into application as a result:

John Anderson
*Increase ewe numbers and wean early
*Ewes on pasture / lambs inside
*Fall lambing
*Fall forages: rape, turnips, oats
*When spring lambing: feed green chop forage [confinement dairy model]
*Market lambs inside, replacements outside
*Reduce animal numbers on pasture = more pasture management opportunity
*Use tillage strategically, increase high quality summer forages

Bruce Rickard
*Wean lambs in fall (late weaning)
*Genetics - work towards sheep with resistance
*Increase grass rest periods and use alternative species grazing with cattle so sheep do not return to the same paddock until about 140 days
*Goal: Live with parasites

Curt Cline
*Co-Exist with parasites
*Use pastures as a low cost production system
*Increase ewe numbers and decrease lamb time on pastures
*Utilize permanent grass / legume pastures
*Graze pure stands of alfalfa (see reduce risk of bloat below)
*Graze unharvested corn fields in winter (start by handfeeding corn to get them used to eating straight corn before turning to this pasture)
*Lamb in April/ May
*Lactation diet high percentage legume pasture
*Wean lambs early (60 days) and continue on to minimally contaminated pastures
*Market lambs early at approx 120 days of age.
*Never revisit pastures with lambs
*Feed only corn & hay while in barn
*Dry ewes used as bush hogs on hooves from June-December
*Hay viewed as an emergency feedstuff
*Use stockpiled forages in winter (cornfield grazing).

Grazing Alfalfa & Reducing the risk of bloat:
*Do not graze young, succulent alfalfa...wait for bloom stage
*Do not move from grass directly to alfalfa
*Do not turn onto alfalfa that has dew on it
*Do not turn a "hungry" animal onto alfalfa
*Increase stocking density to reduce selection - you want them to eat the whole plant, not just the leaves
*80-100% bloom alfalfa makes a low quality hay since it's very stemmy when dried as all the blooms / leaves fall off
BUT
*Used as grazing it is CP 21% and TDN 69%
*Leaves retain quality and most fiber is in the lower 1/3 of the plant
*Grows back very well even when grazed very low



Conclusion:
*There are no easy answers
*Each farm must use various tools and put together an integrated control strategy for their farm
*Management on your farm depends on your goals, your market and the size of your flock / herd
*Recognize economic factors: pasture is cheap feed - grains are expensive
*Worms will adapt - you must co-exist because they are not going away
*Lambs / kids are the weak link...most susceptible 
*Dry ewes / does have a good level of resistance

Additional comments:
I should add that it was noted that if you had the resources to put the animals onto pasture and move them every 3 days, never repeating a pasture until it had sat empty a minimum of 120 days that you could greatly reduce your worm burden.


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## redtailgal (Aug 18, 2011)

x


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 19, 2011)

So really you're screwed either way.  You either have to rely on chemical dewormers and use them regularly, OR, you have to do FAMACHA every week (not hard if only a few animals, but if you have a large flock that's is a HUGE time suck) and also keep lambs off pasture and feed in a confined system which we all know is NOT necessarily the healthiest way to feed animals, and those raised in confined systems don't produce the healthiest meat for us to consume.  


RTG, feeding green chop forages (like in a dairy system) just means cutting and ensiling feed like haylage/balage/silage and feeding it to the animals in a confined system.  IMO, it's a huge waste of time and money (when there is pasture available) because the farmer is having to do all the work to harvest it, then do all the work to bring the feed to the animals.  If the animals are allowed to graze the pasture, then they're doing all the work of harvesting and they walk themselves to the feed.     I think it's fine in the winter when there's not (depending on location) much pasture for them to graze, but I think it sort of puts a stop on the whole "keep costs low" kinda thought process.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 19, 2011)

What they were trying to say is that you need to implement a lot of little ways to keep parasites at a liveable level. You have to learn how to coexist with the parasites. One of the farmers is putting his lambs on alfalfa pastures. He grows them out to 120 days and then ships them off. He loses some money on weight but has added more ewes to have more lambs. He said it was much less labor intensive for him so he is making money and not losing in the long run. It really comes down to doing a lot of studying and research on your own farm to find out what works for your farm. You can't count on any one thing.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 19, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Overwintered larvae are a bigger factor than previously thought.  Spring grazing of pastures used in the previous Fall should be avoided...use those from the previous summer instead.


That statement runs contrary to the other studies I've seen, and I'd love to know how they determined that to be true..  If it was because they put low/zero FEC animals on Spring pastures and they miraculously got wormy, it would mean absolutely nothing..  

Barberpole worms primarily overwinter *in the host* through hypobiosis..  

Now, if they tested Spring grass for viable larvae, that would definitely put a dent in my longstanding argument -- but I doubt that's what they did.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

I'll answer within your quote in _italics_ 



			
				redtailgal said:
			
		

> Let me just say: THANK YOU! again.  I am loving this. I wish I could attend online, but your notes are wonderful.  I cant wait for my goat clinic (on the 25th).
> 
> anyway, I had a few questions (shocking huh?)
> 
> ...


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really don't think that point was made very clear...on how they determined the overwintered larvae.

The study put "clean" lambs onto "clean" pasture...so, somewhere it went wrong.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> What they were trying to say is that you need to implement a lot of little ways to keep parasites at a liveable level. You have to learn how to coexist with the parasites. One of the farmers is putting his lambs on alfalfa pastures. He grows them out to 120 days and then ships them off. He loses some money on weight but has added more ewes to have more lambs. He said it was much less labor intensive for him so he is making money and not losing in the long run. *It really comes down to doing a lot of studying and research on your own farm to find out what works for your farm. You can't count on any one thing.*


Exactly!

EVERY FARM is different.  While these 3 were all in Ohio they each saw things very differently and have chosen different methods of going forward but they each realize that you MUST co-exist with the worm.  You have to have an INTEGRATED PARASITE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (IPMS) FOR YOUR FARM.  How do you do that?  Some trial and error...some testing...knowing the worm...and knowing your environment.

The farm that had good results with the chicory is fairly close to where I am.  The farm that was super weedy was in southern Ohio.  Your environment is obviously gonna play a large part in what you're able to grow if you decide to add this element into your IPMS.  It was said several times that NUTRITION is very important because an animal that is getting proper nutrition is less likely to develop problems when hit with a curve ball such as worms.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 19, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I really don't think that point was made very clear...on how they determined the overwintered larvae.
> 
> The study put "clean" lambs onto "clean" pasture...so, somewhere it went wrong.


Well...if they put them there with mama, then mama's where the worms came from.  And if they weaned them off onto clean pastures, they had probably already picked up worms from mama before they went over.  

Basically, unless they pulled them at birth, bottle raised them on a dry lot with hay, THEN put them over there, and THEN they got wormy -- all of which I doubt -- then I'd say they settled on a cause/effect without enough real evidence..

But hey, I didn't do the study so I dunno..


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## redtailgal (Aug 19, 2011)

x


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They were put out as weaned early...at 60 days.  Prior to that they were kept in the barns while their dams went to pasture without them.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Thanks for the answers Elevan and aggie!
> 
> I understand about the corn.  I am pretty adament about  not feeding corn to my critters. Sure, they all end up getting some, but that is super hard to avoid these days.  *I'm not sure how society ended up so corn crazy.*
> 
> Anyway, thanks lady!


It _used_ to be super cheap...


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## cmjust0 (Aug 19, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> They were put out as weaned early...at 60 days.  Prior to that they were kept in the barns while their dams went to pasture without them.


Hmm..  So the lambs were never allowed on grass in the first 60 days of their lives..  Interesting..

Did they conduct this part of the study *specifically* to test the overwintering capability of barberpole larvae on pasture?


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No the study was done to test the anti-parasitic properties of the plants used.  There were assumptions made about the overwintering of larvae...such as that they didn't overwinter well on pasture.  They have since retracted those assumptions due to their findings in the lambs.  The study was done specifically towards barberpole worm.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 19, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well...if that's what they found and there was no pre-contamination of the kids, then that really sucks.  One of my concerns was that the idea I had in mind would simply be overridden by barberpoles as they found new ways to overwinter, but if this is true...they may have already begun doing it, even without any real 'extinction pressure' to do so..

Is there some text out there on this study?  Usually these kinds of studies come with documentation of what was done, when, what methods were used, etc..  Any information you could give me that would even help me find it on google would be great..


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## ksalvagno (Aug 19, 2011)

You could try North Central SARE. They gave them a grant. Also try http://sheep.osu.edu & http://www.scsrpc.org

I bet a search on the Ohio State website would find some results. Also search on Dr William Shulaw, Dr Jeff McCutcheon and Curt Kline. I would think they should have this study published.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

Good places to start ksalvagno!

If all else fails, here's the link  to my county extension office's info where Jeff McCutheon is at.


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## elevan (Aug 25, 2011)

Installment 3 is tonight...stay tuned for notes late this evening.


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## elevan (Aug 25, 2011)

Seminar 3

Speaker: Dr. William Shulaw - extension vet

Management Tool & Techniques:  FAMACHA, FEC, Dewormer Resistance Testing

Concept behind Selective Treatment or Targeted Selective Treatment
*Parasite #s are not equally distributed in a group of animals
     ~ 20-30% of your animals will harbor most of your worms and are responsible for most of the egg output

Achieving Selective Treatment
*FAMACHA
     ~Establish need to treat for Haemonchus Contortus (Barberpole worm) ONLY
     ~Developed in South Africa in response to widespread dewormer resistance
_
I am not going to go through the notes on how to read and fully use the FAMACHA system as you should find a place to get your training in it._

*By selecting the most heavily infected animals for treatment we can significantly reduce the # of treated animals while still reducing pasture contamination and providing treatment to the animals that need it most.
     ~This approach should slow the development of resistance to dewormers
     ~Goats treated at 3, 4, 5
     ~Non lactating ewes at 4, 5
     ~Lactating ewes at 3, 4, 5
     ~All animals with bottle jaw treated

*Note on bottle jaw...refer back to previous notes that true bottle jaw is fluid and gelatinous...so that if you press your thumb into it the indentation will remain for approx 8 seconds (5-10).  An abscess or infection will not create an indentation and may feel hard instead.

*Refer back to previous notes for a discussion on the Five Point Check
     ~Non-barber pole worms cause body condition problems and / or diarrhea BUT DO NOT cause anemia...only the barber pole causes anemia. 

*Once trained in FAMACHA you can double check yourself by having a red blood cell count ran
See table below:

FAMACHA                                Color                           Hematocrit
                                        Classification                      Range (%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1                                        RED                                >28
    2                                     RED-PINK                          23-27
    3                                        PINK                               18-22
    4                                    PINK-WHITE                       13-17
    5                                        WHITE                            <12



*Replacement FAMACHA cards can be obtained from the University of Georgia (you must have received training)

*When to begin using FAMACHA in OHIO (and other states with a like climate)
    ~Parasite life cycle ramps up in May (around planting time)
    ~Begin scoring animals in May
    ~IF  FAMACHA is the ONLY strategy that you are using it MUST be done at LEAST every 14 days or WEEKLY by mid June
    ~Helps you reduce the selection pressure of the worm to develop resistance
    ~Helps you keep costs down (you use less dewormer)
    ~May be necessary to continue scoring through early September (depending on outdoor temperatures)
    ~Lambs / kids can be difficult to score (use caution)
               *due to size of the eye and their eye lid membrane tends to be paler than that of an adult

*When you have small flocks and limited resources, these are possible options for you
    ~Utilize neighbor's fields (hay fields, cornfields)
    ~Cross species rotation
    ~Reduce stocking rates
    ~May need to treat everyone at the height of the season (mid-July)

*South African work has shown that culling animals that need excessive treatment can result in increasing parasite resilience in the flock
    ~Resilience = ability of an animal to withstand a parasite burden and remain reasonably productive
    ~Resistance = ability of an animal to prevent or suppress a parasite infection (this is an immune response and is usually evident between 6-12 months of age)
    ~Long term affects of using FAMACHA as a culling tool on overall flock productivity has not been evaluated
                *There are other things that you need to look at too (such as litter size)
                        ~Exercising single trait selection could cause you to lose other desirable traits
    ~Some breeds have been identified as being parasite resistant 
                *Sheep: katahdin
                        ~BUT a breed by and of itself doesn't mean that all animals will be resistant.  It just means that that breed has a greater # of resistant animals.
                *Selection for resistance must be an active, on going process for it to be maintained in the flock or in the breed

*Using FAMACHA in LARGE flocks / herds
    ~Examine 50 out of 300
    ~If any animal scores 4 or 5 or if FAMACHA 3s exceed 10-20% - examine all animals

*Remember that it will take a couple of weeks for an animal to gain a score back after treatment (move up on the score card)

*Record Keeping - FAMACHA
    ~Keep some kind of record of your scores so that you can track progress or decline

*Uses of FECs  (Quantitative Egg Counts)
    ~Detecting Dewormer Resistance
          *FECRT
          *Quick screen after treatment - 1 set of samples is not going to tell you about resistance if only doing a FEC
    ~Monitoring pasture contamination
    ~Selection of parasite resistant animals

*Limitations of FECs
    ~They are estimates only
    ~Vary from day to day
    ~Vary due to fecal moisture content - loose stools dilute egg count
    ~Vary due to feed withholding influences - if doing a before and after treatment test make sure circumstances are the same both times
    ~Vary due to type of forage (digestibility) - highly digestible food makes less fecal matter which results in less eggs being passed

*FECRT - Fecal Egg Count Reduction Testing
     1.  Treatment group compared to an untreated control group
     2.  Comparison of average of groups FECs pre and post treatment
     3.  Comparison of individual animal FEC pre and post treatment
     ~At least 12-15 samples are necessary to get a reliable estimate of the egg output of the group (15-20 is better)
     ~Group FEC should be at least 250-300 epg
             *Don't mix lamb & ewes (or does & kids)
     ~Post treatment sampling timelines
             *10-14 days after treating with benzimidazoles or levamisole
             *14-17 days after treating with ivermectin

*Fecal Samples
     ~Best method - invert baggie over your hand (use as a glove), insert finger into rectum and retrieve about 8 berries.  Cup hand and turn baggie right side out and close.
     ~Immediately place in cooler with an ice pack or against an ice pack.
     ~Keep at refrigerator temps right away and until they arrive at vet or lab
     ~Do not freeze

*World Association for the Advancement of Veterinary Parasitology (WAAVP) Guidelines
     ~Microsoft Exel template
             *Uses untreated control group as the comparison group
             *Automatically calculates
                      ~Variability of FEC
                      ~Estimated egg count reduction with respect to the control group
                      ~Upper and lower 95% confidence interval of the reduction estimate

*Techniques for resistance testing
     ~Pre and post treatment testing
              *Acceptable but lacks the control group
                      ~It's possible for counts to go down without being because of the drug or to go up and not be the fault of the drug
              *Use caution when sampling lactating females or lambs / kids approaching 6 months of age (due to beginning of immunity build up)

*It's important to make sure that the animal gets all of the dose of the drug and that they are not spitting any of the dose out.

*If you want to have one lab double check another it is important to make sure that both labs use the exact same technique.
       ~You cannot send 2 samples to 2 different labs that use 2 different techniques and expect accurate results.

*Some evidence that Valbazen has an effect on egg hatching (preventing some eggs from hatching)

*Drench Rite Assay or the FECRT should be done every 2 years
        ~Drench Rite Assay is done at University of Georgia
               *You must call to schedule a Drench Rite 706-542-0742

*Additional resources
www.vetslides.com
       Recordings of each of these seminars will be sent out and I will let you know where you can go to view them yourself.




Next up will be the Field Day on Saturday.  I wish I could take you all but sadly I cannot.  I will let you know how the experience goes


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## redtailgal (Aug 25, 2011)

z


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## elevan (Aug 25, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> oooh, this make sooo much more sense now that I went to my workshop. ( I made notes, cuz I wanna be cool like you )
> 
> We didnt get as much detail as you are getting, so I am still enjoying your notes! Thanks!


I'm really excited for our field day on Saturday.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 26, 2011)

I will be there on Saturday as well. 

There is another class in Wooster on Oct. 14th, details below:

Management Skills For Organic Small Ruminants Workshop is scheduled at
October 14, 2011 from 1 to 5 p.m. at Ohio Agriculture Research and Development
Center in Wooster, Ohio. Sheep and goat producers who are certificated
organic, in transition to being organic or just interested in organic methods
will benefit from attending this event.
>
> This workshop will focus on the management knowledge needed for organic small
ruminant production. Joan M Burke, PhD, Research Animal Scientist, USDA,
Agricultural Research Service from Dale Bumpers Small Farms Research Center in
Arkansas will be one of the featured speakers. Joan has done extensive work in
small ruminant parasite management and organic practices for small ruminants. 
Francis Fluharty, PhD, is a Ruminant Nutritionist Researcher at Ohio State
University's Ohio Agriculture Research and Development Center (OARDC) in
Wooster, Ohio. He will share the importance of nutrition on animal growth, as
well as animal welfare concerns. A staff person from the Ohio Ecological Food
and Farm Association (OEFFA) will discuss the new NOP Pasture Rule and the
record keeping associated with organic small ruminant production.
>
> The workshop will be held at the Research Service Building, Room 130 at the
Ohio Agriculture Research and Development Center located at 1680 Madison Ave,
Wooster, OH 44691. The cost for the workshop will be $15.00. This workshop is
sponsored by the Organic Food and Farming Education and Research Program (OFFER)
at OARDC and the Small Farm Institute. Contact Kathy Bielek for more info.


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

What a day!  I met ksalvagno...nice lady     Got to try lamb for the first time ever...not sure I liked it  :/  (DH did though)  Got my FAMACHA training and card.  And learned some more!

Give me a little while to type up my notes and I'll share what I learned.  There were 8 break out sessions but we could only attend 4 (and one of mine was FAMACHA), so you'll get notes on 3 of the sessions from me.  I know that ksalvagno attended at least 1 session that I did not and we'll hope she shares her notes on that one


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

Break out session 1 of 3

Forage Chicory in a Parasite Control Program
Speakers:  Curt Cline (farmer cooperator), Rory Lewandowski (extension educator) and Dr. Joyce Foster

Why Chicory?
	Sesquiterpene lactones may have an anti-parasitic effect
        	Order of highest content by type of chicory:  Forage Feast, Oasis, Puna
	High quality feedstuff
	Drought tolerant
	No problems with disease or pests

Chicory Planting Considerations:
	Firm, moist seed bed.  Soil prep very important
	Broadcast and culipack or drill seed at  inch depth (no deeper)
	Soil fertility:  pH >5.5 (best at 6.5-7.0
	Soil P: 20-25ppm
	Soil K: 75+ (2xCEC) generally 100-120ppm
	Nitrogen: on pure stands apply 50-100#/yr
	Seeding Rate:
       	Pure stand: 6-8#/acre
      	Mixtures:
        	chicory 3-4#/acre & red clover 6-8#/acre
        	chicory 3-4#/acre & white clover 3-4#/acre
	Yield: 3-6 ton DM per acre

Lessons Learned:
	Can be difficult to establish  lots of weed pressure  need a plan
	Different cultivars have different root structures, SL concentrations and palatability
	Frost heaving / hooving may be a problem in pure stands
        	May be related to soil type and drainage (good drainage needed)
	Pure stands respond well to nitrogen
	Chicory provided a statistically significant effect on FEC compared to lambs grazing on BMR sudangrass
	Effects attributed were not enough to overcome moderate or high worm burdens and chicory could not be counted as an effective stand alone anthelmintic
	Proportion of SL concentrations in chicory cultivar variety may be an important consideration
        	Choice cultivar would probably be a better option for parasite control than Forage Feast (which was used in study).  Choice also will not flavor milk.
        	Puna2=Choice
	About Sesquiterpene Lactones
        	Compounds stay in sheeps rumen for 8 hours
        	Flavor milk!
        	Compounds are water dense and water soluble  so they can be diluted if the animal is drinking a lot of water
        	SL concentrations are high in the spring, lower in summer and increase in the fall
        Types of SL:
	Each cultivar of chicory has a different level of each SL type
        	Lactucin
                	increased bitterness and decreased palatability
        	Deoxylactucin
        	Lactucopicrin
                	most bitter and lease palatable
                	most potent anti-parasitic properties

Chicory and Condensed Tannins
	Chicory has a very low level of condensed tannins
	Condensed tannins have a higher anti-parasitic effect than SL
        	Condensed tannins is a whole class of compounds not just one.


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

Break out session 2 of 3

Using Non-Traditional Forages Within a Parasite Control System
Speakers: Jeff McCutheon (Morrow Co Extension Educator) and Dr. Joyce Foster

In this session we were able to view the alternative forages: chicory, rape, and BMR sudangrassas well as the fields of alfalfa, naked oats and clover.

In order to make a clean pasture tillage is required.  Without tilling the soil you will have parasites in the form of eggs and larvae.

When creating a clean pasture consider items such as turnips and rape.
*While the host farm planted his rape in June for a fall grazing the heat of summer has caused some problems as well as bug damage to the crop and it hasnt been grazed by the sheep yet.  These plants would be best suited (in our area) to be planted in late August for a November-December grazing.

Some concerns with turnips and rape:
*They are very digestiblewhich means that they will go straight through the system if you dont add something to slow it down.  Crap hay was suggested.  Or you could simply seed something along with it to slow it down.  There were enough weeds in the host field that the weeds would take care of the issue.
*If grazing straight there may be an iodine imbalance develop
*Concern that plant compounds could cause anemiahas not been proven in a forage study but the compounds in the plant do have properties which can cause anemia
*You only get one grazing pass

BMR Sudangrass:
*You get multiple grazing passes
*Once it matures it loses quality fast
*A lot of stalk that the animal doesnt really eatand while it will regrow leaves it often regrows them to high, so you may need to cut the stalks to force lower growth

A 2 season option:
Plant corn for summer grazing  have animals graze while it is relatively immature (no tassels or cobs)
then replant field with
Oats  save yourself money by buying Canadian Feed Oats, this is one time where cheaper is better
Oats will outperform rye during fall growing season here.


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

Break out session 3 of 3

Basic Health Program Consideration for Shepards
Biosecurity, Quarantine, Drenching, Core Vaccines, Diseases to watch out for
Speaker: Dr. Bill Shulaw (extension vet)

Biosecurity
When you buy animals  ask about:
*Parasite Control Program
--dewormer use history
--strategy used
--dewormer resistance profile
*Scrapie
*Foot rot, contagious abscesses, Johnes disease, ovine progressive pneumonia OPP in sheep and CAE in goats

Pregnant Sheep
*Avoid mixing groups of pregnant ewes if possible to avoid mass abortions
*use isolation if at all possible
*mix groups when not pregnant
*Consider vaccines and feeding tetracycline for vibrio (campylobacter) and chlamydolphila

Quarantine procedure  preferred is 60 days isolation (30 days minimum)
*testing during quarantine
--OPP & CAE
   dont test if under 6 months of age  may get inaccurate results
--Brucella Ovis
   bacteria that affects testicles and fertility in rams (not goats)
   found mostly in western USA
*Foot rot  may be wise to assume you purchased it and foot trim and foot soak
   foot rot is a bacteria  it is not caused by damp conditions or lack of hoof care
   it is solely transmitted animal to animal
   most common disease in sheep
   there are 20 sub types of foot rot  some much worse than others
   foot rot does NOT live in the soil for years  that is a serious myth at most it is there a  
   couple of days
--foot soak:  10% Zinc Sulfate
*Quarantine Drench  to help avoid introducing drug resistant worms
--isolate animals to barn, dry lot or a sacrifice pasture not used for other sheep
--use more than one dewormer class, one of which should be cydectin and the other
    probably leamisole (Prohibit)
--manure sample worm egg counts should be negative prior to turnout with other animals
   do sample 2-3 weeks after deworming
--release from quarantine onto YOUR INFECTED pastures
    you want the animal to pick up your non selected worms
*Breeding soundness exam (BSE) for rams
-- 10-15% of unexamined rams may have some abnormality during the fall breeding
   season; many more than that in hot weather (75%)
--it takes about 60 days from beginning of sperm production to availability in the
   epididymus for breeding

Visitors
--control visitor access and provide foot covers and possibly coveralls in animal areas

Core Vaccines
Clostridium perfringens types C and D  overeating disease
*toxoid  vaccine
*antitoxin  temporary (14 day) protection

Non-Core Vaccines
Tetnus (may be core in some flocks / herds)

Campylocbacter and Chlamydolphila  for contagious abortions

Caseous Lymphadenitis  only if you have an infected animal along with clean animals
--common in sheep and goats
--draining abscesses are the primary source of the bacteria that causes the disease
    manage these infected animals carefully  isolation and disinfection
--shear animals with suspected abscesses last
--ask shearers to disinfect equipment and provide your own shearing mat
--vaccine must be combined with sanitation and management

Foot Rot
--vaccine not currently available for unknown reasons in the USA
--only works if the serotype on your farm matches the vaccine serotype
--oil based and will cause a LARGE lump
--do not accidently inject yourself  it will have the same large irritating lump in humans

Soremouth
--virus that is contagious to people
--virus will persist in the environment for a while (at least 6 months)
--vaccine is LIVE and capable of causing the disease in animals and people
--vaccine not recommended unless there is a history of the disease on the farm or in the
   flock / herd or reasonable certainty of exposure (such as a show with a soremouth 
   animal)

Rabies
--vaccines for sheep but not labeled for goats (work with your vet)
--may be required for exhibition in some states
--may be justified in some flocks / herds to protect valuable genetics and humans
--a big concern for states Pennsylvania and East of PA due to raccoon rabies


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

Some additional upcoming events in Ohio:

Ohio Heartland Sheep Improvement Association
is having a Fall Event at the Wayne County Fairgrounds October 15, 2011 from 9-2
Sessions:
NSIP selection with purebred sheep
Commercial production
Club lamb / show sheep
Handspinner / fleece production
For more information contact:  Suzie Gortner at 419.869.7353 or skg2ewe@verizon.net


2011 Ohio Sustainable Farm Tour & Workshop Series
Tours:
Grass Fed Marketing and NRCS Equip Demo (cattle) on 9/10/11 - contact  Mardy Townsend @ mltownsend56@yahoo.com
All-In-One Organic Farm on 9/17/11 - contact Ben or Emily Jackle @ milecreekfarm@gmail.com
Organic Family Dairy on 9/24/11 - contact Perry Clutts @ addyg1000@gmail.com
Year Round Growers Market on 10/1/11 - contact Jessica Eikleberry @ roots@localrootswooster.com
Living Off the Land on 10/9/11 - contact Richard Stewart @ rstewart@zoomtown.com
Raspberries & Specialty Crops 9/18/11 - contact dantrudel@gmail.com
Organic Research & Marketing 9/1/11 - contact bielek.4@osu.edu
Synthetic & Chemical Free CSA 9/17/11 - contact timcarol7@att.net
Organic Season Extension 9/18/11 - contact micheleburns409@yahoo.com
Workshops:
Raising the Salad Bar: Advanced Techniques & Season Extension for the Established Specialty Crop Grower 11/8/11 - michelle@oeffa.org  (2 sessions, limited space, registration required)
Advanced Sustainable Tomato Production 10/14/11 - contact Laura Wies @ laura@oeffa.org


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you Emily for this thread! It has confirmed a lot of our farm's practices for me. Like, not using chemical dewormers/anti-parasitics unless a fecal shows a load present - which thankfully, so far, we have only had fecals come back clean. *insert a "whew" face here* Good news, especially knowing that we have deer and moose that frequent our property.
I have copied off the various plants, fruits, etc mentioned on here as being safe and/or anti-parasitic to add to our list of things to make sure we have or add to their feed rations(like cinnamon - hopefully it makes their breath smell better too  )
I haven't scrolled all the way through yet, so it may have already been mentioned, but you can add to those natural dewormers/anti-parasitics: 
hemlock(tree, not plant), spruce, and garlic(especially helpful against ticks & mosquittoes).
Again thank you! I am always learning, and wanting to share what I learn


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## elevan (Oct 23, 2011)

Garlic was actually discussed (brought up by another participant) and we were told that there have been no scientific studies done that have found it to be anti-parasitic.  Our extension vet did say that he had a colleague who did a private study and that she claimed it was mildly effective, but that was as far as he would go with it.

There is a lot of information here and it takes a while to digest it.

I plan to do my own private study next spring as I detailed in a post earlier.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 24, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Garlic was actually discussed (brought up by another participant) and we were told that there have been no scientific studies done that have found it to be anti-parasitic.  Our extension vet did say that he had a colleague who did a private study and that she claimed it was mildly effective, but that was as far as he would go with it.
> 
> There is a lot of information here and it takes a while to digest it.
> 
> I plan to do my own private study next spring as I detailed in a post earlier.


I don't know of any official studies, but I do know that when we switched from putting Frontline on our dogs(worked well, but made the skin on their necks thick and leathery and would still find ticks on them{dead, but on them}) to giving them garlic we found no trace of ticks on them. So we figured it would have the same effect on goats. I know people that eat a LOT of garlic, or foods containing garlic, you can smell the garlic in their skin oils.


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## elevan (Nov 4, 2011)

You can now read a condensed version of this thread as an educational page:  http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt
Note the educational page does not include discussion on alternative forage.


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