# Boer breeders, I need some sanity please (Update with photo)



## chickenrunnin (Aug 31, 2009)

When I purchased my Boer Doe, I was told that she was to kid the last week of July or the first week of August. Well that has come and gone. I am certain they were off in their dates. She is just fine and progressing nicely. I just wish I knew exactly when she was going to do it. I find myself everynight going outside to check on her at least 2 times a night. I decided that I was just going to quit expecting and she would have them (doesnt help me much, as I have only tried at night to forget). We had always had whethers growing up so this pregnant thing is driving me nuts. My hopes in this post is that anyone with experience in Boers could give me some signs of what a Boer looks and acts like prior to. I understand that the dairy goats will bag up prior too, but I have heard that the Boers really dont. I have been checking under the tail daily when she gets her hip rub (which she really enjoys) and her vulva in the last week isnt lets say as tight as it was before. If anyone could give me a piece of mind, you have no idea, how much you are actually saving my sanity. I hope I wasnt this bad when "I" was actually "kidding".


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2009)

Our boer bagged up forever before kidding out...I think that mostly depends on the individual animal.  

Check the ligaments on her tailhead..  When they soften, you're generally getting pretty close.  Sometimes, though, they soften, then come back, then soften again, then come back, etc..

Goats are really, really good at hiding pregnancies and impending labor, btw...like, ninja good.


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## lilhill (Aug 31, 2009)

Kidding season is the most stressful time for us humans.  No matter how many times I've done it over the years, it still drives me nuts and I hand breed so I know the exact date to expect the kids!  And cmJust0 is absolutely right ... these girls are pros at hiding pregnancies and impending labor.  The last month or so, I check so often they have gotten to where they see me coming, group up, look over their shoulders at me and say, "OMG, here she comes again!"  Ligaments softening tells me the time is near.  When they totally disappear (and don't pop back up) and the tail seems to be broken, it should be within 12 hours.


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## chickenrunnin (Aug 31, 2009)

Please believe me when I say I am not dumb when it comes to animals. But could you possibly take a picture and point to exactly where you are talking about on the tail. She has softened on all areas around the tail area and likes her multi time a day massages on the rump.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2009)

The ligaments basically run from the hipbones to the pinbones..

There's a decent illustration about 1/3rd of the way down this page  from Fiasco Farm.

Hope it helps!


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 1, 2009)

Perfect!!! thanks for the link. Okay, so here is the deal, I had so errands to run this morning and didnt go check on them when I got up. Came home and went to see them. Momma goat as we call her looked very thin today. I looked around to see if she had babies and I didnt see them. Went to give her the daily tail rub and her tail is down when it is normally up. She wouldnt even let me touch it to observe. Maybe today is the day. I am really really trying not to get to excited becuase I felt everyday since the end of July has been the day. Wow, I know I am rambling, you should hear me in person. The excitment is here. I have a gut feeling. I will let you guys know what the verdict is. Thanks so much for easing me through the excitement. 

Kel


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## helmstead (Sep 1, 2009)

LOL You sound like me...!

The only sanity I can offer is...a preggers goat will kid eventually - they DO have to come out of there!!

Good luck!


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 1, 2009)

Helmstead, You crack me up in all of your posts....You always have the best words of wisdom 

cmjusto: that link was the best. It was very informative. We should put that up for all first time pregnant goat parenters.

Thanks again "everyone"


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2009)

Glad I could help.  

Best of luck, and keep us posted!


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 3, 2009)

Well, nothing yet. But this morning I let them all in the back yard to eat and I was in the kitchen and heard goat chatter and looked, momma was on the couch on the porch looking through my kitchen window. I thought I would share the picture. It is sideways due to my phone but you can see anyway. I thought it was funny and wanted to share. 
Kelly


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

Uh oh..  Looks like she's going downhill fast.

  


I gotta say...I'm one of the funniest people I know.


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 3, 2009)

Yes you are


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 15, 2009)

Still no babies yet. She has lost her mucous plug over a week ago, her bag is by no mean big, but she has milk, her vulva is enlarged and she twitches it alot, some days she looks thin like she had the babies and then the next they are sideways again. I tell you what this waiting game is horrible. I purchased her pregnant from a friend who purchased her pregnant and the first owners said she was due last week of July first of August. Well that has come and gone. Her other doe was 3 weeks later than the date too. I am sure they were just off on dates. 

I have been looking for all the signs you guys have told me to look for. She hangs her tail on the days she looks like she had them and I cant find the ligs, and others she has her tail up. Many times I think its time, because she is so restless and uncomfortable. She used to go to bed on her own when it got dark and now she is up all night long and keeps my other babies up. Sometimes it looks like she is having braxton hicks contractions too. I keep daily notes on how she is changing. I think she enjoys making me crazy. She doesnt even want me near her rear end checking on things anymore..lol. But this is killing me.


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## freemotion (Sep 15, 2009)

chickenrunnin said:
			
		

> I think she enjoys making me crazy.


Well, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the fact that you have goats in the first place is a sure sign that you already were crazy....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 15, 2009)




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## chickenrunnin (Sep 15, 2009)

thanks for the reminder...I totally forgot I already was. Its so nice to have friends in the "SAME" boat.


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 19, 2009)

I have come to the conclusion, she is just not pregnant. 2.5 weeks ago, she lost her mucous plug and had a little milk. This last week she is thin in the loin as if the baby were to have moved into the birthing position, I cant feel the baby/ies and now she has no milk. She has had no discharge and seems a happy, healthy non pregnant goat. Was told her due date was last week of july first week of august. Her sister who was bred at the same time had hers 2.5 weeks late. I was sure that they were really off in her dates. Her body when I got her was huge sideways. However, when I look at her belly you can still see it move and it is always uneven when it moves. If I believe she is not pregnant, which I am pretty close to doing, maybe she will have them.


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 20, 2009)

Here are pictures of Momma Goat only moments ago...
This is obviously today but she was due the last week of July/first week of August. I honestly believe they were off on dates.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 21, 2009)

chickenrunnin said:
			
		

> Still no babies yet. She has lost her mucous plug over a week ago, her bag is by no mean big, but she has milk, her vulva is enlarged and she twitches it alot, some days she looks thin like she had the babies and then the next they are sideways again. I tell you what this waiting game is horrible. I purchased her pregnant from a friend who purchased her pregnant and the first owners said she was due last week of July first of August. Well that has come and gone. Her other doe was 3 weeks later than the date too. I am sure they were just off on dates.
> 
> I have been looking for all the signs you guys have told me to look for. She hangs her tail on the days she looks like she had them and I cant find the ligs, and others she has her tail up. Many times I think its time, because she is so restless and uncomfortable. She used to go to bed on her own when it got dark and now she is up all night long and keeps my other babies up. Sometimes it looks like she is having braxton hicks contractions too. I keep daily notes on how she is changing. I think she enjoys making me crazy. She doesnt even want me near her rear end checking on things anymore..lol. But this is killing me.


Is it possible she really isn't pregnant and the discharge you were seeing along with her swollen-ness and nervousness was just her being in season?


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## helmstead (Sep 21, 2009)

She doesn't look anything near to being close.  Maybe a month or 2 out, even, based on her udder.  When is the last possible chance she could kid (ie 150 days from when you purchased)?


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 21, 2009)

july 24th.


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## helmstead (Sep 21, 2009)

So you've had her since February?


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 21, 2009)

No, I got her July 24th very pregnant. Due last week of July/First week of August. Mid August she had milk and lost mucous plug. No there is no milk at all. Her stomach moves unevenly and pokes out on various sides. When I got her you could see her belly moving all of the time, it was very busy, there was no doubt in my mind she was pregnant.


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## helmstead (Sep 21, 2009)

I would tend to say she wasn't very pregnant at all back in July - perhaps she was drying her udder off, not building it?  You probably were seeing her rumen moving, not kids.  Bellies change shape all the time based upon fill...  and you _might_ have just seen her in heat rather than a mucos plug.  

Can you feel anything if you palpate?  Just going off her udder, I'm guessing late Oct or early November, if she is bred.

I could always be wrong...but she just doesn't look anywhere near close.  Really, she could be due anytime between now and December if you purchased her in July...or she might not even be bred.  It's so darn hard to say with goats, most of whom look preggers all the time.


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 21, 2009)

I totally agree. I am very disheartened though. I was so wanting babies. My buck who is 7 months old and very much a boy was not interested in her at all. You think her stomach could move that much moving the rumen around? I am tending to believe that she is not and was just heavy. But that doesnt explain that she had milk for a week. The lady I bought her from said that when she purchased her and her sister that they were both due around the same time. So that would mean that they were bred Feb/Mar. Her sister had hers 2 weeks late. Oh well, another time. Bummer deal though, that I bought a "pregnant" doe on purpose and we didnt have any. Thanks Kate for all your help and support. I think I need a support group for miscarriages for goat moms.


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## helmstead (Sep 21, 2009)

Well don't give up on her yet.  Did the individual you purchased from own a buck?  How long had she owned her?  Take each date and run it through the calculator...

I've had several does lead me on.  Some I swear are bred, turn out open.  Some you can't tell they're bred at all until their udders build in ernest.  I have a few that build little precocious udders when they're in season...ya just don't know until you've had the doe awhile and know their ways.

And, if she is open, your buck being 7 mos old is just to where we'd expect one to be starting to do his job.  I'm sure this fall, he'll fall into a good rut and help you out for spring kids!

This is why (well one of the reasons why) I don't sell bred does.  Sure, I might be willing to expose a doe before it leaves here, but I won't sell on as 'bred'.  Heartache, headaches.  I have purchased a few myself who were supposed to be bred and weren't (or weren't bred to what I was told they were, etc)...I don't want to put someone else through that.

By the way, she is a beautiful lady!  I love her ticking/roaning!


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 25, 2009)

So guess what, after all the weirdness of last week with my goat, this week (today) I saw dried dirty goo on her butt cheek. So I decided after a week of giving up on her I would check it out. Her belly on one side was soooo hard. Like there was a critter in there and the other side was soooo soft and no hard spots. Then being as thorough as I am decided to check her bag. While its a little more full than previous days I decided to do a gentle/firm tug and I got milk in my hand again. So I called my mom and had her come over to make sure I wasnt crazy and she felt the same thing suggesting maybe her belly was really full from the grass...then...I showed her....watch this mom I say and checked her bag again and _*filled*_ my hand with milk cuz she jumped and made me pull harder. So, if she wasnt pregnant and was in heat would that cause her to still milk up? I asked my friend again when she got her and she said a couple of weeks before the other goats had babies she was purchased with. So it could be that she got bred toward the end of April and not February as she was told. See Momma goat was bred when she purchased her. So the hope is back that I can still be a goat momma


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 25, 2009)

Goats are weird, wonderful little creatures, aren't they?


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## bheila (Sep 25, 2009)

Good lord chickenrunnin, too bad you aren't a little closer or I'd come down and palpate or pull her blood for you.  This is driving me nuts and she's not even my doe....


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 25, 2009)

LOL I wish we were closer too bheila. Ya know of all my animals in my life having babies and what not, this has been the most difficult, most interesting, most frustrating. In all my other animals I have _*ALWAYS*_ been able to tell. Animals have always been my life. Then I get this crazy goat, and all of my knowledge has suddenly disappeared. Its driving me crazy, grantide its not a far drive. I had to laugh at the statement Good Lord, because when I tested her milk supply that is exactly what I said to her. So now, I dont know what to think. I tried for a week to believe that she wasnt pregnant and now I think she is again. But maybe like my original belief they might have been completely off on their dates.


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## chickenrunnin (Sep 29, 2009)

Guys she still has milk, I am positive there are no kids. Could it have been a fasle pregnancy?


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## broke down ranch (Sep 30, 2009)

Perhaps a failed pregnancy....


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## Roll farms (Sep 30, 2009)

There's just no real way to know for sure what happened.  

We had one boer doe, bought "exposed" due in Jan.   I had at one point thrown our 'clean up buck' in the pen w/ all the does many months after I got her.  So she goes into labor one night in early January, I wait w/ her and all I see her pass is just tons of red fluid, and I mean bucket fulls.  This was years ago when we were still fairly new to kidding, but I knew something wasn't right.

I thought she was 'due' and couldn't get the kids out, so I called the vet.  She comes, knocks her out, does a C section and....pulls out this small (no way near full term) uterus, feels around, and...nada.  Nooo kids.

Even the vet is confused so we go looking around in all the places she'd squatted and passed all the fluid and find 3 - 6" long (roughly 60 day) fetuses.  

Turns out she wasn't bred when I got her, our clean up buck had gotten her.

Vet's best guess was placental previa, fluid build up caused the doe to look huge / due, and when she finally passed all the fluid / kids she was fine. 

Our vet still laughs about the 'only time she ever did a C section on a doe who WASN'T pregnant....

The point of the story...sometimes a doe who looks hugely pregnant can lose the kids w/ out you realizing it.

If I hadn't been there and seen her passing all that fluid that night, I'd never have had a clue what really happened.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 30, 2009)

There's also something called a "cloudburst," which is where the doe appears to be bred and can go through a complete pregnancy cycle...just without kids.  At delivery, she delivers water, hence the term..


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