# help please ... need advice regard young LGD and older aussie mix



## use2bwilson (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi There,
I am very concerned about the safety of my 11 year old male aussie / heeler mix around our 1.5 year old male LGD. 
I am considering re-homing the LGD but really really hate to do that. 
They are both great dogs and the LGD is turning out to be an awesome guardian and super sweet great dog in general. (But to be fair the aussie mix is my *absolute favorite dog* I have ever owned. I would not forgive myself if something happened to him that I could / should have prevented).
The tension between the 2 dogs began about 6 months. But shortly after I noticed this growing tension, my aussie mix and I moved away from the "family" while I started a new job in CO. During this 6-month transition, I had my aussie mix with me while my husband stayed behind with the rest of the critters while the house sold, etc. We have been together at our new place for just over a month and have been very cautious to keep the 2 dogs separate. Our new place is fenced and cross fenced and we are able to manage this separation pretty well. Both dogs are relaxed when they are separated by the fence and there is no attempts to rush the gate when gates are opened. Both dogs listen very well. 
However, the other day we had an incident with another dog nearly killing a chicken (we have 5 dogs total and typically they all have been fine with our chickens and goats). However, in the last week one of them has killed a chicken and was caught in the act of eating it. This was a 2nd attempt.
In the drama of another chicken assault, our young LDG got out of his pasture and attacked our aussie mix. Somehow, miraculously, our aussie was unharmed ... everyone was unharmed. But it took both my husband and I to separate the two and had the fight *not *occurred right next to our tack room where we could put the aussie for safety once they were finally separated, I do not think it would have ended so well. If this had happened away from the buildings where we could not have put the aussie behind closed doors ... I do not wish to imagine what might have happened.
My husband is a super strong athletic dude and he is barely able to control the LGD "pup" when he goes "full akbash" as we call it. Our LDG "pup" is in general very sweet and submissive and pretty darn obedient in the realm of LGDs. He LOVES to play with our female LDG and our female bc/heeler mix. He also gets along great with our 11 year old male akbash. He also plays really nicely with our neighbor's female dog. He is truly an amazing dog that I do not want to re-home. 
He has not yet been neutered. I wanted to let him mature a bit before I had him neutered but I will be making an appointment ASAP.
On a day to day basis, the situation is very manageable; however, there is always the potential that someone makes a mistake and a gate is left ajar. I would not forgive myself if something happened to my aussie mix.
I do not want to over react and get rid of an amazing LGD. He really is amazing. (He only barks on an as need basis!!)
But I do not want to *under *react...
I feel like I am crazy to keep them both ... THOUGHTS !??!!? 
I do not expect that neutering him will change anything over night ... but perhaps in a few months as a 2 year old LGD, his intensity will subside a bit (as I type this I know it is wishful thinking).
Before the recent incident, I had taken them on a short "run" together while the aussie is off leash and the LGD is on leash. I thought this time together would be positive and relaxed and it might help improve things. It went well and was very relaxed. They are fine together on many levels yet I DO NOT TRUST IT.
Perhaps with continued controlled positive interactions, we can work through this ...?!??!
I truly want to work this out somehow ... but my heart tells me it is too risky ...


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## Bruce (Dec 12, 2016)

@Southern by choice is your best bet with this. 

 

sorry it was a near disaster that brought you here.


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## Baymule (Dec 12, 2016)

I have practically your same situation. I even have an 11 year old Aussie!! How's THAT for coincidence?  I have a female Great Pyrenees named Paris, the female Aussie is named Polly. They absolutely loathe, hate and despise each other. And to make it worse, Polly will attack Paris, which is never good. The last fight took a trip to the vet to stitch Polly's head up. It is scary when dogs fight and I don't blame you for being concerned and worried about doing what is right for both dogs.

Your two dogs don't get along. Just like there are people you don't like, dogs don't always like each other. You will have to keep them separate. Since your LGD is a working dog, it shouldn't be too hard. Keep him in his world, and keep the Aussie in his world. Do you have a fenced back yard? If not, seriously consider one, it would give you a double layer of protection for the Aussie and still allow him to be outside. Let the Aussie accompany you when you are outside, keeping him out of your LGD's territory. House or farm dogs should never be allowed into an LGD's work space.

If you want to let the LGD out into the common area, first put the Aussie in the house or back yard. There is no need to get rid of the LGD, he sounds like a good dog and an asset to your farm.

The good part about my dog's dislike for each other, is that Polly became a house dog. A spoiled, sleeps in our room on her own bed, gets special treats, super spoiled house dog. We call her Princess Polly. 
Paris is a good sheep and chicken guard. I would not get rid of her because of the friction between her and Polly.

That is my experience with 2 dogs that hate each other. I hope it helps. But as previously mentioned, @Southern by choice is our premier dog trainer and perhaps she will have a better suggestion.


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## Latestarter (Dec 12, 2016)

Greetings and welcome to BYH. I'm sorry that you are having this issue that brought you to us. As has already been mentioned, @Southern by choice has been our resident LGD expert for quite a long time. We have recently had a new person join BYH who has been a long time breeder of LGDs who may also be able to help or provide input/guidance; @BrendaMNgri  I mention this because just this evening Southern lost her top LGD female and I'm sure is in mourning. 

Much will depend on why and where your LGD attacked your Aussie. Was the Aussie involved with the chicken killer or come between that dog and your LGD? Was the LGD in his area when he attacked the Aussie? It sounds to me like the LGD should be predominantly kept in his area and the Aussie should be kept out of the LGD area. As Bay stated, a securely fenced back yard area for the Aussie to use would probably help.

Hope you'll stick around. If you have some pics you could share, we're all very addicted to pics here. There's also quite a bit of information shared in the LGD section. Browse around and make yourself at home.


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## use2bwilson (Dec 13, 2016)

Thanks for the welcome greetings 
After the recommendations, I messaged Southern By Choice for input.  Then realized she was SBC in the very sad posting about Callie.  I am just catching up but it is clear what a special dog Callie is ...  loved and cherished by all.  My heart goes out to SBC.

I will provide some more detail on my situation ...
My Aussie (Quigley) was not near the chicken incident at all.  He was near our house and not at all involved.  The female akbash (Loretta) who has been around our chickens for 2 years has just started killing (and eating) them in the past week.  Perhaps this is a result of our transition to our new farm ?!?  
Since my aussie has not been around our young LGD (Hitch) for that past 6 months (Quigs was with me during my new job transition in CO while my hubby was back in AZ until we got a new place here).  We have been in our new place for about 6 weeks and we have been very careful with the reintroduction of Quigs and Hitch.  Hitch spends most of his time in the goat pasture.  If he is out of the pasture, Quigs is not around or Hitch is on leash.  Our female akbash (Loretta) spent the majority of her time in the pasture too (up until the recent chicken killings).  Hitch and Loretta are very bonded and definitely enjoy lots of play time together.  
FYI ... we also have an older akbash male (10 y/o) - Willie and a precocious 5 y/o female bc / heeler mix _ Cassie.
Willie is "semi-retired."  He has been a great mentor to Hitch and they get along great although the youngster will sometime play a bit too rough for the old man.  We are careful at this point to only put Hitch and Willie together when we are right there so we can remove Willie if Hitch gets too rambunctious.  
Luckily we have good fencing and multiple pastures.

One theory I have is that the drama of the chicken killing "set off" Hitch.  I may have over reacted in my correction of Loretta.  Hitch very well may have been reacting to me.  As my husband and I ran out to intervene, the "back yard gate" was left open where my Aussie was hanging out.  And, the pasture gate too was left open as we rushed in.  There is about 50-70 between the two areas ...
Anyway, suddenly Hitch was out of the pasture and on top of Quigs.  I jumped right into the mix and managed to get Hitch off of Quigs but was unable to keep control of Hitch for long.  I think he out weighs me and he certainly out powers me.  Luckily Quigs ran closer to the house where Hitch attacked him again.  If he was not next to the house where we were able to separate them again and quickly shove Quigs into the safety of the garage ... I truly do not know how we would controlled the situation.  I am terrified to think of what could have been the outcome.  We were very very very lucky.
During this time the two female also got into it.  We are always on eggshells with the two of them.  However, the heeler mix is the aggressor out of the two.  It was pretty much complete chaos and mayhem.  Yet lucky ... I got a few minor punctures in my one hand.  Very minor ... and yes, I know how stupid I was in how I intervened!!

I am trying very hard to be fair to all our dogs.  I DO NOT want to re-home Hitch.  He is on his way to being a magnificent LGD and he is truly a complete love (other than the hatred for Quigs).  But to be honest, Quigs is my absolute buddy.  He is my running, biking, hiking buddy.  He has kept me safe in the wilderness for years.   We have countless miles and adventures together.  He as guarded my campsites. He has alerted me to a mountain lion, a protective mama moose and countless coyotes.  I want to be clear in my bias ... he is my absolute #1 dearest-to-my-heart dog.  He deserves to be safe in his own home in his golden years.  He is not quite in his golden years yet (still running, hiking and biking with me).

I have fostered a lot of herding dogs over the years and I do not take re-homing any animal lightly.  Willie is a rescue, Loretta is a rescue and so is Cassie.  I am very committed but I do not want to be blind in my devotion on either side of this coin.  I am willing to work through the situation but I am also a little terrified that a mistake will happen and I will never forgive myself ...
I am glad I found this forum.
All input is welcome.  I truly want to make the best decision ...


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## Baymule (Dec 13, 2016)

Bad manners on my part, WELCOME to BYH!!! We moved almost 2 years ago to a doublewide on 8 acres in the Tyler, Texas area. Yup, we left the big brick house on a tiny city lot and haven't looked back. Having the time of our lives. So glad you joined us and hope you can work out the dog dynamics. Check out the forum, join in the conversation, and post pictures!!


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 13, 2016)

My mutt farm dog Emma and my GP Angel can't stand each other.

We have to keep them separate.

You just have to manage the situation and keep the dogs apart.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 13, 2016)

We had rising issues with our Great Pyr/Saint Bernard male with other male dogs near "his" girls. a female he was fine with but it was once he hit that year mark and really matured he got more dominant and growly (never harmed anything but asserted himself more and more). In *our case,* neutering him brought back the easy going dog he was. Same went for our female, his daughter. Once we spayed her, her entire demeanor changed towards everything. She was more laid back and has relaxed around people. She will react if "her" goats are outside when people or other dogs come over which we want, but when they are locked up or we go places she is a very calm and loving dog which is what we want in our dogs. I do not have any advice, just what worked for us in our situation.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 13, 2016)

Maybe i'm misunderstanding but, i dont think Hitch hates Quigs.



use2bwilson said:


> Both dogs are relaxed when they are separated by the fence and there is no attempts to rush the gate when gates are opened. Both dogs listen very well.





use2bwilson said:


> Our LDG "pup" is in general very sweet and submissive and pretty darn obedient in the realm of LGDs. He LOVES to play with our female LDG and our female bc/heeler mix. He also gets along great with our 11 year old male akbash. He also plays really nicely with our neighbor's female dog.





use2bwilson said:


> Before the recent incident, I had taken them on a short "run" together while the aussie is off leash and the LGD is on leash. I thought this time together would be positive and relaxed and it might help improve things. It went well and was very relaxed. They are fine together on many levels....



None of those points indicate that he "hates" Quigs.

I hope i dont offend you and could be totally wrong but have you considered that you might be causing the conflict? If hitch senses your anxiety, tension, fear, and worry anytime he is around Quigs it would likely make hitch on edge and liable to snap at anything "out of step" Quigs did....no? Over time hitch would learn Quigs is not a trustworthy dog, because obviously any time he is around you your fearful, agitated,  full of anxiety, etc.

When i trained dogs before i have seen the owners fears directly influence what the dog does to the point of the dog acting exactly how they are afraid they are gonna act simply because of the owners signals, emotions, negative thoughts, etc. Remove the owner with the worries and the dog was fine.

Even up to the point of a dog that had killed another dog so the owner would never let it around other dogs and kept it in her house or on a very short leash when walking it. It got worse and worse, the dog would lunge and try to attack any other dog it could see. Remove the owner and walk the dog on the same exact route and the dog was walking with a loose lead and other dogs passing by without so much as a grumble after 10-15 minutes of minor corrections. Took the same dog to a fenced area and took our larger personal dogs at the time along with us. Let our dogs loose in fenced area then brought the "offender" in and they played for hours without a single problem. The dog went home that evening, the owner was excited her dog was "fixed" the next morning when the owner was walking the dog, he was trying attack other dogs again. The owner decided to have the dog neutered to end the problem.....guess what...that didnt fix it so she ended up giving us the dog. We owned that dog for 6 yrs and he lived in a house with 3 other dogs and we didnt have anything other then minor squabbles like dogs do. We explained the issue to the owner by she couldnt let go of her fears.

SBC says LGD's a different critters so maybe i am wrong but from what your saying it doesnt feel like they hate each other but it does feel like your emotions may be creating the situation.



use2bwilson said:


> I am very concerned about the safety of my 11 year old male aussie / heeler mix around our 1.5 year old male LGD.





use2bwilson said:


> I would not forgive myself if something happened to him that I could / should have prevented).





use2bwilson said:


> We have been together at our new place for just over a month and have been very cautious to keep the 2 dogs separate.





use2bwilson said:


> I do not wish to imagine what might have happened.





use2bwilson said:


> On a day to day basis, the situation is very manageable; however, there is always the potential that someone makes a mistake and a gate is left ajar. I would not forgive myself if something happened to my aussie mix.





use2bwilson said:


> They are fine together on many levels yet I DO NOT TRUST IT.





use2bwilson said:


> I truly want to work this out somehow ... but my heart tells me it is too risky ...





use2bwilson said:


> I am terrified to think of what could have been the outcome.





use2bwilson said:


> I am willing to work through the situation but I am also a little terrified that a mistake will happen and I will never forgive myself ...



By your own statements it sounds like your emotions go into over drive just thinking about a possible injury to your Quigs, i dont know how you could possibly remain calm with Quigs actually there. It's very possible you were stressed about your move and hitch picked up on and it started picking on Quigs a bit which you noticed and started to quietly worry about, then you moved away and took Quigs for 6 months with the thought of hitch seriously hurting Quigs in the back of your mind for those 6 months. Then came time to bring the two dogs back together and the worry about how the dogs would get along and how best to re-introduce them, etc. On and on and on...

I could be wrong but this feels like the case to me. The dogs i have seen that hate each other do not act calmly and fine on opposite sides of a single fence, or go on walks/runs together and be fine.

Maybe the new dog trainer person will chime in or SBC will after some time mourning.


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## babsbag (Dec 13, 2016)

My house dogs and my 2 of my LGDs cannot be together. I think that they probably do hate each other. My pasture and my house are over 100' apart and I have good fences on both yard and field. When I go from one to the other I always close the gate behind me. You just have to make it a habit. But I also know that if a gate gets left open there is still a fence line to protect the dogs. There may be a lot of posturing going on outside of the fence but the dogs are safe.  

And welcome to BYH from California. You found a great place to hang out and "meet" some great people.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 13, 2016)

babsbag said:


> My house dogs and my 2 of my LGDs cannot be together. I think that they probably do hate each other. My pasture and my house are over 100' apart and I have good fences on both yard and field. When I go from one to the other I always close the gate behind me. You just have to make it a habit. But I also know that if a gate gets left open there is still a fence line to protect the dogs. There may be a lot of posturing going on outside of the fence but the dogs are safe.
> 
> And welcome to BYH from California. You found a great place to hang out and "meet" some great people.



The lack of posturing and aggressive nature on opposite sides of the fence and their other behavior is what makes me think hitch doesnt actually hate Quigs.

Opps i forgot


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## babsbag (Dec 13, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> The lack of posturing and aggressive nature on opposite sides of the fence and their other behavior is what makes me think hitch doesnt actually hate Quigs.



I would have to agree. Also, if Hitch wanted Quigs dead he would be dead. Period. 

Here it has always been the LGDs getting out and running to the fence where the BCs are. There is always a lot of barking and tail wagging from the LGDs and the BCs are the ones growling and being obnoxious, but it is their yard that is under "attack".  If they were on neutral ground they may be just fine but right now I just don't have the time or the need to find out. If I ever have to evacuate in a hurry due to an emergency I guess I will find out their real feelings.  I have done agility with the BCs and they aren't dog aggressive elsewhere. And the LGDs have been to the vet and they are big love bugs so I figure that most of their grouchiness is environmentally related.


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## Latestarter (Dec 13, 2016)

@misfitmorgan brings up some really good points. Especially where an LGD is concerned as they bond with you as well as the herd and if they sense fear, they might well try to eliminate whatever is causing the fear in/to you.


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## use2bwilson (Dec 13, 2016)

Thanks for all the feedback.  I am very happy I found this forum.  I’ve been on a number of different “farming” forums and this one is super friendly and very helpful.

“MisfitMorgan” I do agree with some of the things you are saying and I have seen very similar training issues in my experience as well.  I hiked with a friend for years and her male red heeler could be reactive to other dogs.  When we were on a busy trail with other dogs off leash, I would often take her dog for her while the other dogs passed.  He was a different dog with me than with her.  I was not nervous about him and was confident that I could time my corrections appropriately and only as needed and he was not a problem at all.  She was always amazed.  So I totally get it.

And, I have seen small changes in the interactions between Quigs and Hitch before we moved at the beginning of the summer.  And yes, it has been on my mind over the last 6 months.  All of that is true.  I also am very aware of the power and intensity of these livestock guardian breeds.  And, yes … I am extra protective of Quigs since he is older and much smaller and as I admit my “bestest bud.”  Also, Hitch and Quigs have never been buddies.  They co-exist and tolerate each other but that tolerance is waning and some tension is growing. 

I am also aware that Quigs is very possessive and protective of me and often puts himself between me and the other dogs.  But the other dogs all ignore him and there is no tension.  I usually try to ignore Quigs when he does this and pet the other dog first, then make Quigs sit and then pet him.  I am aware of his neediness and blocking behavior and do not reward it with pets and attention.  This is the change that I started to see in AZ in the spring.  When Quigs would block and growl at Hitch as he matured, Hitch would challenge him and start to go after Quigs. I would correct both of them and tell them both to knock it off.  And yes, I became nervous at this point that Hitch would put an end to it.  Perhaps I should have let them work it out on their own at that point, but I do not trust that Hitch would or could control that potential power and intensity.

So this is good feedback for me and something I will definitely work on.  I do not feel stressed when I am actively with both dogs.  I often will pet both dogs together on each side of the fence when we are all relaxed.  I will not pet Quigs if he tries to wedge himself between me and the fence and Hitch.  We will continue to work on training with Hitch so that I gain more trust of him.  Like I have said he is a sweet dog but I do see that side of him when he gets really fired up and that switch is thrown and he kind of “goes full akbash” as we call it.  I’ve had to pull him off of Loretta a couple times when he gets really fired up about other dogs being too close to the fence or something.  I trust his relationship with her (those 2 LOVE each other) but still worry that we will accidentally hurt her.

Do others see this behavior with their working pairs?  I feel like it is somewhat common behavior but am not totally sure.


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## Bruce (Dec 13, 2016)

Seems to (uneducated) me that both dogs are protecting you from all danger, including the other dog. What a challenge! I agree that keeping the apart is your only option at this point. Best of luck!!


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## Latestarter (Dec 13, 2016)

These dogs, and really any pack of dogs, will sometimes have "squabbles" which normally are quickly settled and over with. But sometimes, especially with powerful and dominant breeds, things can go a little over the top. I'm sure you know and understand that you are supposed to be the pack leader and they are all supposed to recognize this. With the LGD breeds however it's more of a partnership/team between you and them rather than a pure "you're the head dog and in charge" like with a typical pet breed.  Even SBC has had things happen. They are very powerful animals, and since designed and bred to take down wolves, a pet dog is generally no big effort for them if they decide to do so:

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/emergency-vet-trip-for-blue.34786/

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/emergency-vet-trip-for-pete-ugh.34858/

There's still a wealth of info and experiences shared in the various LGD threads. Browse around and make yourself at home!


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## babsbag (Dec 13, 2016)

@use2bwilson   Just a tip for posting on the forum. If you want someone to be notified that you mentioned them in a post put an @ before their name.  I noticed that you put misfitmorgan in " " so I thought I would share just in case you didn't know this.


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## Bruce (Dec 14, 2016)

And you need to choose the name from the list that comes up, just typing it all out with an @ in front doesn't work.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 14, 2016)

use2bwilson said:


> Thanks for all the feedback.  I am very happy I found this forum.  I’ve been on a number of different “farming” forums and this one is super friendly and very helpful.
> 
> “MisfitMorgan” I do agree with some of the things you are saying and I have seen very similar training issues in my experience as well.  I hiked with a friend for years and her male red heeler could be reactive to other dogs.  When we were on a busy trail with other dogs off leash, I would often take her dog for her while the other dogs passed.  He was a different dog with me than with her.  I was not nervous about him and was confident that I could time my corrections appropriately and only as needed and he was not a problem at all.  She was always amazed.  So I totally get it.
> 
> ...



Glad i could possibly help. I just dont see hitch's actions as hating Quigs. They very likely have an un-settled dispute between the two of them on who is dominant which normally i let my dogs sort out but admittedly if my dobie went after my 12lb chihuahua mix to settle a dominance issue i to would stop it and be very scared for my chihuahua mix. I completely get that Quigs is your favorite best bud ever and you wanna keep him safe but i dont think hitch is trying to kill him Quigs as mentioned if Hitch wanted Quigs dead he would be.

One of the best methods i have used to keep a dog from "blocking" other dogs is to make the blocker stay behind the owner and let the the owner greet the other dogs and then when the owner is ready, to call the blocker dog to the front and pet them. Turning your back to your dog is a pretty good sign that hey i am not giving you attention right now. Also making Quigs stay behind you(seated or laying down normally) while your at the fence giving attention to Hitch or any other dog should help him stop the blocking behavior.

The blocking behavior on Quigs part isnt really a good thing, think about it in human terms. If you and a friend were walking some place together and you saw say your hubby and walked over with your friend to talk to him but when you got there your friend got between you and your hubby and started a non-stop stream of chatter while you tried to look around them and talk to your hubby. It would be ridiculous, frustrating to both you and your hubby and obviously very rude but your friend would feel like they are the center of attention. That is pretty much what Quigs is doing, the fact the other dogs have just dealt with it doesnt mean it wasnt still frustrating for them. Some dogs handle frustration better then others.

Quigs is trying to be dominant and tell Hitch nope this is my human and Hitch is pretty much telling Quigs "wanna bet?" Getting Hitch fixed may or may not help but if it means you get to keep him on the farm it could be worth a shot. Is Quigs neutered?

Like i have mentioned i have never worked with LGDs just regular dogs so wait for a final verdict from SCB perhaps? She generally has really good insights or suggestions the rest of us dont think of and many many years of experience with LGDs.


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## Baymule (Dec 14, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> One of the best methods i have used to keep a dog from "blocking" other dogs is to make the blocker stay behind the owner and let the the owner greet the other dogs and then when the owner is ready, to call the blocker dog to the front and pet them. Turning your back to your dog is a pretty good sign that hey i am not giving you attention right now. Also making Quigs stay behind you(seated or laying down normally) while your at the fence giving attention to Hitch or any other dog should help him stop the blocking behavior.



Haha, Trip "blocks" me but makes it hard to turn my back on him, as he wraps around my legs like a big white furry snake.  He especially does this when I am holding our 3 month old grand daughter or anything else he thinks he should protect. Gotta love these dogs!  He does unblock when I tell him NO. QUIT.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 14, 2016)

Baymule said:


> Haha, Trip "blocks" me but makes it hard to turn my back on him, as he wraps around my legs like a big white furry snake.  He especially does this when I am holding our 3 month old grand daughter or anything else he thinks he should protect. Gotta love these dogs!  He does unblock when I tell him NO. QUIT.



i ment blocking other dogs 

My tiny chihuahua is the boss of the other dogs and tries to do the same thing but i kick her off my lap if she does it and ignore her. She is getting better about it slowly but she is 12yrs old and can be a butt. She doesnt like getting kicked off the couch/me, she sits on the floor and looks at me like i murdered her.


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## use2bwilson (Dec 15, 2016)

@babsbag - thanks for the tip ... 
and thanks again for all the stories, examples and input.  
I totally agree that if Hitch wanted Quigs dead, he would be dead.  Maybe that is why I am so nervous.  But then on that account, Quigs is not dead and it was a warning.  I see a small change in Quig's behavior so hopefully, hopefully, hopefully he will be more respectful of Hitch.  I will continue to not allow Quigs to block and will utilize the suggestions.  I've also talked to my husband about us teaming up for some short structured trainings with both dogs together.  We are more than willing to work through this ... but I don't want to jeopardize one dog's safety while we do if others with more experience think the situation is too risky.
One day at a time ... I guess.
I have a pre-op vet appt today for Hitch to be neutered.  Our plan was to let him mature and/or until it was a problem.  He has matured and now is the time.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 15, 2016)

use2bwilson said:


> @babsbag - thanks for the tip ...
> and thanks again for all the stories, examples and input.
> I totally agree that if Hitch wanted Quigs dead, he would be dead.  Maybe that is why I am so nervous.  But then on that account, Quigs is not dead and it was a warning.  I see a small change in Quig's behavior so hopefully, hopefully, hopefully he will be more respectful of Hitch.  I will continue to not allow Quigs to block and will utilize the suggestions.  I've also talked to my husband about us teaming up for some short structured trainings with both dogs together.  We are more than willing to work through this ... but I don't want to jeopardize one dog's safety while we do if others with more experience think the situation is too risky.
> One day at a time ... I guess.
> I have a pre-op vet appt today for Hitch to be neutered.  Our plan was to let him mature and/or until it was a problem.  He has matured and now is the time.



I wish you the best of luck and please keep us updated on how your progress goes.


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## Baymule (Dec 15, 2016)

X2!


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## Latestarter (Dec 15, 2016)

X3


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## TAH (Dec 16, 2016)

x4


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## use2bwilson (Mar 4, 2017)

It's been a while since my original post so I thought I would give an update. 
Since my last post, we have had Hitch neutered and continue to focus on general obedience training a few times a week and as opportunities present themselves. 
I also feel like I understand our situation much better. Hitch (almost 2 y/o LGD) and Quigley (12 y/o Aussie healer mix) have been getting along okay. We still keep them apart for the most part. They are near each other every day (separated by the fence with no tension) but I do not allow Quigs into the pens. I have been taking hitch and Quigs on runs together a few times a week and they are totally fine - sniffing the same patches of grass together and running along relaxed. I have Hitch on leash and Quigs off. 
However what I have realized about Hitch is his extreme reactivity to some stimulations /situations. So I am now pretty sure that the big fight that prompted my original post was caused by the chaos of the other dog killing a chicken. It is clear to me now that "that bad energy" and our reaction to the situation is what set off Hitch and Quigs just happened to be in the line of fire. 
We have had a few occasions that are somewhat similar with Hitch becoming very very aggressive with his buddy Loretta when someone walks past our property with another dog. Hitch will get super worked up and literally jump on Loretta.  This does not happen every time a dog walks by but it doesn't happen rarely and unpredictably. It looks very aggressive and intense yet she has never been hurt or bit.  This has happened a handful of times (maybe 3 times in 4 months) and because of it we do not leave them together in the same pen when we are not home. They have a few hours in the morning and again in the evening that they get to romp and play and wrestle but only when we are home. 
Any way it is this reactive behavior that is becoming very concerning.  Each time we have witnessed it, we jump the fence and discipline Hitch and separate them for a while and sometimes throw Hitch in a barn stall. Basically we get in Hitch's face when this happens with a firm no and maybe grab him by the collar to get his attention and correct the behavior.  Nothing overly physical yet a very firm clear NO!!
Because of this behavior I have recently stopped taking him on runs. If we see other dogs he will sometimes escalate and lunge at my other dog that I have on leash. There are times where I can keep him calm however other times when he is less controllable. I do not trust the situation any longer. I do not want to stop taking him on runs yet he weighs nearly as much as I do and I struggle to keep him controlled. 
As I had mentioned in my original post we just recently transitioned from 20 acres surrounded by national forest on 3 sides to a 3-acre property more in town. Hitch is currently guarding a pasture / pen area less than an acre. So I am concerned that he is bored and frustrated by the much smaller space. We are almost finished fencing the remaining property with the intentions of expanding his space. However I am not sure if I will give him access to the back pasture with his behavior. Most likely he will have access to the additional 2 acres when we are outside with him so we can train and correct unwanted behaviors. 
So I guess I have a few questions...
1.  What corrections to you recommend for this behavior?  
2.  Is 3-acres too small of a space for his intensity?  I do not want to re-home him at all ... but I want what is best for him and wonder if this transition is not a good fit for him. He is a really great dog just his intensity is some times over the top. 
3.  With continued training and management (separation from other dogs when we are not home), will he mellow out in another year or so. He turns 2 in April so I realize that right now he is like an 18- old boy and needs continued training. 
I am open to thoughts and suggestions...


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## Bruce (Mar 4, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri @Southern by choice 

I don't think you should be taking a working LGD for runs off the property. Its job is to STAY on the property guarding it and the animals other than necessary things like trips to the vet. I don't know enough to say if being away from his property caused "internal consternation" that contributes to his behavior. However I think you are doing him no favors by treating him like a pet. 

Yes he needs human interaction and socialization but on HIS turf, not out on the road, at dog parks, etc. He can be a "combo" companion/working LGD and spend time in the house.

And yes I would say he needs more space. I don't know where you live (you can post it in your profile) so I don't know if you can doubletime the fence building or need to wait for the ground to thaw but I would make that a top priority.


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## BrendaMNgri (Mar 5, 2017)

_As I had mentioned in my original post we just recently transitioned from 20 acres surrounded by national forest on 3 sides to a 3-acre property more in town. Hitch is currently guarding a pasture / pen area less than an acre. So I am concerned that he is bored and frustrated by the much smaller space. We are almost finished fencing the remaining property with the intentions of expanding his space. However I am not sure if I will give him access to the back pasture with his behavior. Most likely he will have access to the additional 2 acres when we are outside with him so we can train and correct unwanted behaviors. 
So I guess I have a few questions...
1. What corrections to you recommend for this behavior? 
2. Is 3-acres too small of a space for his intensity? I do not want to re-home him at all ... but I want what is best for him and wonder if this transition is not a good fit for him. He is a really great dog just his intensity is some times over the top._

You requested my input, so will say this: I think you need to work on finding him a new home.  No amount of correction is going to solve this problem.  The shrinkage of acreage is just too much and less than an acre is not enough room for an LGD, intense or not.  That is just too much of a shock.  His behavioral issues are and will continue to stem from his frustration.  He does not have enough to do.

On another subject you brought up, I do not take my dogs off my ranch for runs or romps.  I would occasionally let two of my old Pyr girls ride into town in the back seat of my F250 but they stayed in there during the errand.  Taking a dog off it's ranch and away from it's stock to play with strange dogs or go to a dog park, is sending confusing mixed messages to it.  The dog as others pointed out, is supposed to stay put on his property (which does not happen automatically of course this is achieved with good fencing that keeps the dog there), guarding livestock, performing it's function.  Socializing can be accomplished at him on your ranch by introductions to guests and family.  Thus your dog is acclimated to meeting people under a controlled circumstance that enables him to be a healthy socialized dog without removing him from his job site.

Your LGD and your herding dog are together.  Although herding dogs can safely mix with guardian dogs please remember folks they are apples and oranges.  One moves stock.  The other protects it.  Plain and simple.  Herders are more intense and hyper.  I would not want a herder mingling all the time with an LGD, for fear out of it's possibly corrupting the LGD if it is young and impressionable, to chase or herd stock.  You never want to cross or breed an LGD to a herder and vice versa.  You respect their genetics and understand they don't work the same.   Sadly this is going on in spades now and people are creating dogs who don't know what to do and/or are inferior guardians.  Most large commercial sheep outfits I know and occasionally work with or for and help, do not let the herder dogs mix with the guardians.  In some instances the guardians will try to attack a herding dog if they see it nipping a sheep's feet or trying to move it, so precautions are taken.  When we work a band of sheep or dock and vaccinate lambs or shear, the guardians are locked up in a gooseneck trailer off away from all the commotion so they don't stress out.

One of the biggest challenges in anything in life is to be able to take a step back, say oops I may have made a mistake, own up to it and do what needs to be done and move on, hopefully wiser.  We all do this.  No one is perfect.  You have choices to make and hopefully you can do so and the dog can be re-homed into a loving, caring and more suitable home.


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