# Keeping a Breeding Buck Mannerly and Compliant



## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

I have had goats for about 3 years now, but have not owned my own buck before.  I have brought several in on breeding leases, and had a chance to decide what (besides breeding and conformation, obviously) is important to me in a buck that will be a permanent resident here.  I had one flighty and hard to catch, but not at all mean buck.  I had one super sweet, toddler could lead him through a herd of does on a piece of dental floss buck, and one I would not have turned my back on for love or money.  (he went home pretty quick) Needless to say, I liked the toddler-and-dental-floss buck best. 

I recently purchased a yearling buck of my own.  I am really happy with him.  He has a great, easy-going disposition and has been handled a ton.  What are your best tips for keeping the boys friendly, safe, mannerly, and fun to handle? I have had horses most of my life, and have handled/ridden quite a few stallions, so I don't think I am completely clueless, but not every tidbit of horse information translates to goats.  Some info is species specific, I am sure.  When you do have to reprimand, what is your best advice for how to do that and under what conditions? I want my 150 lb of joy to grow up into a 250 lb joy, if you know what I mean.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 12, 2012)

i'm another one that would love to hear answers to this ... i've handled stallions for years (currently have three), but the buck we raised and didn't handle much was just wild ... and the grown one we bought is sweet as pie.  we have a baby that we're likely keeping ... how much and what kind of handling does he need to keep him friendly but respectful?


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## hcppam (Mar 12, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> i'm another one that would love to hear answers to this ... i've handled stallions for years (currently have three), but the buck we raised and didn't handle much was just wild ... and the grown one we bought is sweet as pie.  we have a baby that we're likely keeping ... how much and what kind of handling does he need to keep him friendly but respectful?


X3


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## terrilhb (Mar 12, 2012)

All I can tell you what I do for my 2 bucks when they are being michevious I spray them with the water hose. But it only works so much. Interested too to see answers.


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## elevan (Mar 12, 2012)

Well...I have small breeds but some of the same stuff would apply.  
First and foremost you must be the head of the herd...meaning you take no "monkey business" from the bucks period.  You need to handle them frequently - hooves, body checks, FAMACHA scoring, etc.  I think that being head of the herd is the MOST important part of the equation - you are the boss always.
But even if you have the perfect sweet buck you should never let your guard down because one moment of extreme hormones could be dangerous in even the best animal.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 12, 2012)

Bucks can be a joy.  They are curious and sweet if you raise them right.

Handle them often,  use a halter, or a choke chain.  And handle them with confidence.  Never with fear.  (meaning don't be afraid of them.) 

Always be alpha.  DO NOT ever let them think they are bigger than you and at the first sign of them acting dominant absolutely dominate them.  (This should be done when they are smaller and lighter.  That may mean that you need to knock them to the ground and sit on them.)   

NEVER push them on the forehead or grab them by the horns if they have them.  

There are some bucks that are overly dominant and you don't want to keep one of those unless you are prepared to dominate them.  Don't buy a buck that is angry and aggressive and you won't have problems with your buck.

Breed for temperament.  

Also remember,  rutting season doesn't mean the buck is going to become aggressive.  It means that he will become single minded.  Bucks CAN be taught to be gentlemen breeders.  

He needs to understand that no matter how much he wants that doe, he has to go through you to get to her and he has to behave until you say it is OK to breed her.  That has to be an established rule from DAY ONE!  So when he is young put a halter and a harness and a choke chain on him and MAKE THAT CLEAR!  Don't just turn him out and let him chase all the girls and run them ragged.   Once he has learned to behave and you feel he is a safe buck with your girls, then you can take him to them when you want a doe bred and put him with her.

AND then you will also know you can handle him to move him where you want him during rut.


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## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> Well...I have small breeds but some of the same stuff would apply.
> First and foremost you must be the head of the herd...meaning you take no "monkey business" from the bucks period.  You need to handle them frequently - hooves, body checks, FAMACHA scoring, etc.  I think that being head of the herd is the MOST important part of the equation - you are the boss always.
> But even if you have the perfect sweet buck you should never let your guard down because one moment of extreme hormones could be dangerous in even the best animal.


See, this is the same with horses and this I already get.  What I really want to know is what body language to be looking for in a buck.  In horses, big problems start small and most greenies miss the signs entirely until the issue is a big one.  With goats, I am a greenie.  I need to know the small signs. Then what I want to know, is what is an acceptable and effective form of reprimand.  I get the being dominant and in charge part, and don't think I will have a problem with that.


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## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

It's like with a horse.  Lots of horses will come up to you and kind of push into you seeking attention.  Seeking attention is fine, until one of them actually puts his body on you and makes you take a step backward to keep your balance.  In the moment you did that? You gave up authority. Most people just think "oh how sweet, he wants me to pet him".   I need to know how to recognize this in goats, and what an effective response is.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 12, 2012)

Body language in a buck isn't obvious.  It's kind of individual.  Each one will show different behaviors.  But you pretty much know when you know.  An aggressive buck will put his head down and snort at you.  But so will a playful buck.  However it's a different "feel".  

I have three bucks.  One of them is really playful and silly.  One is very shy and quiet. One is macho.  None of them are aggressive towards me ever!  The playful silly one is Alpha with all the other bucks.  But he is a pain in the behind with the girls and has to be haltered and leashed when in rut or he chases the girls all over the field.  The Macho boy is a love and is mannerly with the girls.  The shy, quiet boy has yet to score.    

Alpha boy will hook the other boys with his horns and lift them off the ground to move them out of the way.  But he never hurts them.  They all head butt each other.  But they NEVER EVER do that to me. 

Some will tell you, "never turn your back on a buck".  I say, never turn your back on a buck you don't know.  I turn my back on my boys all the time.  But usually they will climb up on my back and lay down (if I am on my hands and knees working on something.)  Or my silly boy will put his feet on my shoulders and look over to see what I'm doing or eat my hair.  And my shy boy will poke his head between my arm and my side and look up at me with a happy face.  Mr.  Macho  (Houdini) will poke his head between my legs and look up at me and beg for food.


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## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

I think mine is going to be "silly".  Part of his name is the word "Benz".  I am calling him Benny, because he reminds me of the Benny Hill theme song.  I just like him.  A lot.  And I don't want to blow it, because as of right now he is a really good boy.  He has been handled right so far.  If he turns into a monster? It is all on me.


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## elevan (Mar 12, 2012)

I "never turn my back" on any of my animals...what I mean by that is that I am always aware of where they are and what they are doing even if I'm not looking at them.  I mean it a sweet animal can have a moment of hormones that can cause devastating problems, so especially "greenies" just need to be aware of themselves at all times.  My DH is a greenie...and he is the one to get hurt in the barnyard all the time.

Personality in bucks plays a huge roll.  You can raise them right and then their hormones take over and it's game on and everything changes...that's not your fault if that happens, but it is why you must be aware at all times.

I find that I can see a change of how things are by watching their eyes.  Queen Mum is right that there isn't any real ground rules for what every buck is going to exhibit when they cross the line.  You need to know your individual animal.  But their eyes always give away their intent imo.  I never let them touch me with their horns (mine are horned), I never let them attempt a headbutt to me when they are young.  They are never allowed to lower their head in a charge fashion with me.  Basically any aggressive action is "squashed" immediately.

I love them.  I pet them and I give them affection but it is always on my terms.


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## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

By what method do you "squash" them?


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## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

If a stallion came up to me and gave me a shove, I would haul off and smack him.  Hard enough to make my point.  He knew what he did and he knew what it meant and he would understand and respect that response.  That is what I am asking.  Is that how you reprimand a buck? A good foundation of training almost always heads things off before they get to that point, but if a stallion DID decide to try it? That is what he would (appropriately) get.  And I would feel entirely comfortable with it.  I don't know enough to feel confidant about that same decision with my buck though, even though my instinct is that it should be similar or the same. 

It may never come up. So far, he has been very well behaved and a joy to be around.  He is bred well, and was handled a lot and well.  He is mannerly and funny and fun.  And even though he is just barely a yearling, he does already have a couple of sets of kids on the ground.  So I don't just think it is because he is young. I think he is an inherently good boy who has also been handled well.  I just don't want to drop the ball.  I know a lot of folks who own stallions who shouldn't own stallions.  I have had goats for 3 years.  I don't think most folks with only 3 years of experience with horses should own stallions.  That is my frame of reference.  So I second guess myself a lot. My original plan was to wait another couple of years before getting my own buck.  But I had some really dreadful experiences with bringing in outside bucks this year, and just decided to I wasn't going to go that route again.


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## elevan (Mar 12, 2012)

I have used the water squirt method, a knee to the shoulder, a flick to the nose and taking them to the ground and "sitting" on them.  It really depends on the offense and the severity of it.  I find the water method most effective in training.  The other methods are more effective reprimands.  Reprimands are used in much the same way that a herd queen would use them.  My herd queen reprimands other goats by a headbutt to the shoulder, pushing the other goat around and sometimes a quick bite...so my methods are just a human version of those that are naturally done by the goats.


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## mydakota (Mar 12, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> I have used the water squirt method, a knee to the shoulder, a flick to the nose and taking them to the ground and "sitting" on them.  It really depends on the offense and the severity of it.  I find the water method most effective in training.  The other methods are more effective reprimands.  Reprimands are used in much the same way that a herd queen would use them.  My herd queen reprimands other goats by a headbutt to the shoulder, pushing the other goat around and sometimes a quick bite...so my methods are just a human version of those that are naturally done by the goats.


Thank you, that is what I was asking. 

It is very much the same then, as with horses.  Well, except for the water thing.


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## lilhill (Mar 13, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> I "never turn my back" on any of my animals...what I mean by that is that I am always aware of where they are and what they are doing even if I'm not looking at them.  I mean it a sweet animal can have a moment of hormones that can cause devastating problems, so especially "greenies" just need to be aware of themselves at all times.  My DH is a greenie...and he is the one to get hurt in the barnyard all the time.
> 
> Personality in bucks plays a huge roll.  You can raise them right and then their hormones take over and it's game on and everything changes...that's not your fault if that happens, but it is why you must be aware at all times.
> 
> ...


I have 7 bucks ... 4 senior and 2 junior.  When they are all together or in individual breeding pens "working", I know where they are and what they are doing.  I agree that if you are aware of that, then you are ahead of the game if they have been handled properly as a baby.  If a buck starts feeling his oats and decides to see what would happen if he challenges me (whether it is rearing up on his hind legs, or getting pushy), then he gets squirted with the water pistol.  You can overdo anything, so don't just walk into a pen with water and start hitting them with it.  It is a correction only and they learn to respect my space when I want it.   I can pet them, brush them, walk them on a leash, but when they get into my space uninvited, then they are corrected.


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## AdoptAPitBull (Mar 13, 2012)

I got my buck as a bottle baby, and I think that helped tremendously. He's a big puppy dog, and is the friendliest of all the goats. Sometimes a little too friendly, especially when he's covered in pee and wants attention. Then it's like...I'm sorry, honey, I want to pet you, but you STINK! He tried to hump me a time or two when we were building his shelter, and that's about it. He started licking me all over, then jumped up on me. I tossed him off, then put him on a tie out till we were done. Can't blame him, though, he was turned on and I'm a girl. Other than that, he's the biggest smoosh ball. Has never tried to hurt me or the other goat and alpacas he lives with. Early socialization is key. Don't get a buck and try to tame him!


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## Queen Mum (Mar 13, 2012)

A very firm shove on the shoulder is a good correction as well as a squirt with cold water.  Another correction is to take a small bit of hair on his butt and twist it.  (that's a big reminder)  If you need to you can grab his beard when he gets one and give it a fairly gentle tug.  (Goats chins are very sensitive.)


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## mydakota (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you, this is what I am looking for.  He is a yearling, and weighs about what I do right now. I don't think I would be able to throw him down and sit on him when he is another year bigger.  Those are the kinds of fights you don't pick if you are not certain you can win.  I have heard about the chin/beard thing before.  (he does already have a beard)  The butt hair thing I had not heard of.  I have heard of the water thing too, but don't usually have water available in my hand when I am in the buck pen with Benny.  A shove on the shoulder is handy and usually available, so I will probably use that a lot. I wasn't sure if something like that would be a reminder, or just invite a shoving match with an animal a lot bigger than me.  It is probably like with the horses though.  The trick is to act with such conviction that you make them believe you. 

Honestly?  I don't think he has a truly mean bone in his body. I really don't.  At some point though, he will be a fully mature, breeding male, and those are predictably unpredictable and I want to be prepared  to keep him nice. I am not looking for a reason to  wail on him. I just want to help him stay nice.


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## elevan (Mar 13, 2012)

The butt hair pull is a good one.  I have a doe that gives unruly kids a yank on their butt hair and sends them screaming the other direction!  

IMHO a bottle baby can be more problematic as a buck for some of the reasons that AdoptAPitBull mentioned...being too friendly can be a precursor to hormonal aggression.  Not always but it needs to be watched for.  And if a buck tries to "mount" you then he needs to be put on the ground immediately!

I also completely agree that if you're dealing with full size bucks, you do not want to get a fully grown one and try to tame them...you're asking for trouble if you do.


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## SDBoerGoats (Mar 13, 2012)

I am glad to see this asked, and the responses. I too have raised and trained horses for many years, and we have always had stallions of our own, or in training. So I naturally felt the way to discipline a buck was on the same order as what i would do with a stallion. We have a 2 year old that we purchased last fall, and a yearling that I bought when he was a weanling. So far both of them are good. The older buck for cranky when he was in rut. I was told to take a cattle prod in if he was chargey. I didn't care for that idea. I wouldn't do it to a stud horse and won't do it with any other animal. Our bucks are handled, brushed, dewormed, trimmed etc. I like the squirt gun idea if they got unruly, as long as I remember to carry one! I know I couldn't throw and sit on the big one, he outweighs me by a bunch but we have had him for 8 months and through one breeding season and he didn't get too bad. Now he is like a pup again. The younger one has never gotten bad yet, and he bred 2 does last year.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 13, 2012)

Mama,  my herd queen, taught me the butt hair pull.  She really only uses it when she has to "get their attention" quickly and firmly and make her point if the target doesn't get it with a firm shove.  But it works.  She also got one of the boys attention once by pulling on his scrotum.  (YIKES).  I don't think I will ever try that one.  But she just walked up to him and gave him a nip.  He didn't ever mess with her again.  

Mama has no horns and my bucks do.  She would quickly lose if the boys didn't respect her and decided to use their horns.  But they all tried just once.  And all she did was give them "the look" and they all backed down immediately.  Except, Ian.  And what she did was let Ian get on his hind legs and come crashing down to... *Nothing.*  She took two steps back, side stepped and knocked him to the ground by his shoulder.  She then laid on top of him with her full 250 pounds calmly chewing her cud.  He was so surprised that he just laid there looking shocked and chagrined.  When she let him up, he ran away and hid behind me.   

Got to love Mama.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 13, 2012)

mydakota said:
			
		

> It's like with a horse.  Lots of horses will come up to you and kind of push into you seeking attention.  Seeking attention is fine, until one of them actually puts his body on you and makes you take a step backward to keep your balance.  In the moment you did that? You gave up authority. Most people just think "oh how sweet, he wants me to pet him".   I need to know how to recognize this in goats, and what an effective response is.


mydakota, i would kiss you full on the lips if you were within a 100 miles of me.  so many people never talk about "moving the feet" even though i know it's preached in some of the horsesmanship methods. ... it's so simple and such an easy way to get across such an important concept. 

i've probably done that with our buck just by habit.  if that's the kind of thing it takes, then i will start loving on our young guy and keeping him sweet and just treat him like one of the other guys.  ... MIND YOUR MOMMA! LOL!


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 13, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> A very firm shove on the shoulder is a good correction as well as a squirt with cold water.  Another correction is to take a small bit of hair on his butt and twist it.  (that's a big reminder)  If you need to you can grab his beard when he gets one and give it a fairly gentle tug.  (Goats chins are very sensitive.)


awesome tip!  that's really good to know and something i would never have thought of.


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## redtailgal (Mar 13, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> She also got one of the boys attention once by pulling on his scrotum.  (YIKES).


I've done this with unruly bull calves and with young stud horses.  It works.  I wouldnt hesitate to try it on a goat.  But then again, I've been told that I am ruthless and savage.


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## mydakota (Mar 13, 2012)

Queen Mum?? "Mama" sounds like a gal who knows how to get things done!


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## Missy (Mar 14, 2012)

I also have a yearing buck, mounting is something to definintely watch for. I missed the early signs(following me with head cocked to the side, tongue out, snorting and snuffing). This was his first breeding season, and he was quite excited about it. Well I was bent down clipping hooves on Willow(my quiet goat) and Bob Marley made his move, before I knew what was happening, I was half under Willow with a buck on my back....go ahead laugh....

Well I quickly got up and stared him straight in the eyes and made a BBBBRRRAAWWWW noise(similar to what my herd queen does to him, he lit out in the opposite direction...right into the herd queen, who quickly picked up where I left off and broadsided him... 

From that day on, he has remained a nice sweet lovable buck, but never again did he try any funny business with me.


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## mydakota (Mar 15, 2012)

Good information here.  Thank you everyone.


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## terrilhb (Mar 16, 2012)

Missy said:
			
		

> I also have a yearing buck, mounting is something to definintely watch for. I missed the early signs(following me with head cocked to the side, tongue out, snorting and snuffing). This was his first breeding season, and he was quite excited about it. Well I was bent down clipping hooves on Willow(my quiet goat) and Bob Marley made his move, before I knew what was happening, I was half under Willow with a buck on my back....go ahead laugh....
> 
> Well I quickly got up and stared him straight in the eyes and made a BBBBRRRAAWWWW noise(similar to what my herd queen does to him, he lit out in the opposite direction...right into the herd queen, who quickly picked up where I left off and broadsided him...
> 
> From that day on, he has remained a nice sweet lovable buck, but never again did he try any funny business with me.


  I am so sorry for laughing Missy. I had my smaller buck try that to me. He did not quite make it. I popped him on his nose. They are a trip. Now he just follows me around snorting at me and sticking out his tongue. I watch him like a hawk. His brother is just happy if he can rub his head on me. And I scratch his ears.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 16, 2012)

When Ian wants a head scratch, I wash his face.  He is quite indignant about having his lovely perfume washed off, but he lets me do it.


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## bbredmom (Aug 24, 2012)

A halter does make a world of difference. We put them on all the goats, but especially the boys. It gives us something to grab onto. 

We also put pipe across their horns starting about 6 mos when the aggressiveness can kick in. We leave the horns on our goats, and more than once when Zeus was trying to establish dominance over my husband, those horns came in handy as a way to lay him down and settle him.

We never strike or whip our goats, but we don't coddle zeus's bad behavior. He has had his nose nipped and beard tugged. But at two years old, he is the sweetest, most gentle buck.

We also use olors on our bucks, so they can stay with the entire herd. Zeus (and his daddy before him) are so incredibly gentle with the babies, and I have to think that is because they know them from almost a week old.


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## allanimals21 (Aug 25, 2012)

Missy said:
			
		

> I also have a yearing buck, mounting is something to definintely watch for. I missed the early signs(following me with head cocked to the side, tongue out, snorting and snuffing). This was his first breeding season, and he was quite excited about it. Well I was bent down clipping hooves on Willow(my quiet goat) and Bob Marley made his move, before I knew what was happening, I was half under Willow with a buck on my back....go ahead laugh....
> 
> Well I quickly got up and stared him straight in the eyes and made a BBBBRRRAAWWWW noise(similar to what my herd queen does to him, he lit out in the opposite direction...right into the herd queen, who quickly picked up where I left off and broadsided him...
> 
> From that day on, he has remained a nice sweet lovable buck, but never again did he try any funny business with me.


So I've lucked out so far with the 2 bucks I have owned.  The first one who passed was the sweetest thing ever.  He never acted bucky at all.  Not even with the girls.  He was a dream.  The new buck Gauge so far so good.  He was a head case the first few days to a week he was here and I was worried.  Screaming and running everywhere he could to get away from me.  Now at about 6 months old I can touch him anywhere, open his mouth, pick up his feet anything.  He yells for me when I'm outside and follows me like a puppy.  I'm worried he could be a potential problem when he is older...

Anyways the issue I wanted to bring up is my bottle baby alpine wether has recently started the same behaviors listed above.  He has never mounted me.  He has my sister.  LOL  ok not funny sorry,  Anyways he was wethered at...I'm think 4-6 weeks?  I can't remember but it was done young.  He has never acted "bucky".  I've noticed I guess that it started after I brought more goats into the picture.  I noticed it seemed to happen when he realized I was approaching a buck we had bought at the time.  This buck was a horrible horrible buck.  He had attacked me a few times to where he had to be pulled off of me.  The alpine wether witnessed the worst of the attacks and I thought maybe his behavior was him trying to keep me from this other buck.  Well we have since sold that buck and I've noticed this behavior a few times again.  I'm pretty quick at catching it and stopping it on the spot.  However he did catch me off guard the other day and got me in the back with his front hooves.  Any ideas what this could be about?


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## CTChick (Aug 25, 2012)

bbredmom said:
			
		

> We also use olors on our bucks, so they can stay with the entire herd. Zeus (and his daddy before him) are so incredibly gentle with the babies, and I have to think that is because they know them from almost a week old.


What is "olors" ?
Laura


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## breezy B ranch (Aug 26, 2012)

I want to thank you for asking this question and for all the info!! We have a buck that we helped bring into this world after a long and horrible pregnancy. Mom was down for 3 weeks before giving birth to 2 still born does and 1 big healthy boy. Mom remaind down for 2 more weeks so we left him with her but bottle fed him as she couldn't get up to feed. Well after all that we would like to keep him intact and use to breed but were afraid to because we didn't want him to become aggressive and then have to be sent away. He is like our own child after all the work to get him into this world!! After all your info I feel much better about keeping him intact, part of the family and still productive! Thanks!!


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## redtailgal (Aug 26, 2012)

CTChick said:
			
		

> bbredmom said:
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> 
> ...


An Olor is pretty much a goat condom.  

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7648860.stm


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## marlowmanor (Aug 26, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> CTChick said:
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Alright. You learn something new everyday!


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## CTChick (Aug 26, 2012)

"We also use olors on our bucks, so they can stay with the entire herd. Zeus (and his daddy before him) are so incredibly gentle with the babies, and I have to think that is because they know them from almost a week old."

Can you post a picture or tell me how to make one of these - checked out the Africa link, that is amazing!  My boy is very sweet, I'd love to be able to keep him with the girls and not have to worry ...


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## bbredmom (Aug 26, 2012)

A quick and dirty olor is to take and old pair of mens jeans (and since i'm married to an electrician, we go thr jeans at a rapid pace), cut off at the knees, fold up the legs s the olor will be about 1-2" off the groud, and sew the bottom of the legs to the jeas. Then we sew the two legs together in the middle. We put halters on our goats-easy to grab, no chance of choking- so we attach the olor thru the jean loops. Wa-lah!

I'll post a picture when I'm at a real computer.


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## CTChick (Aug 26, 2012)

Thank you - I think I "see" what you are doing but a picture would be really great!  And this really works, eh?  Amazing!
Laura


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## bbredmom (Aug 29, 2012)

I hope these help


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