# Deep litter for sheep...



## Beekissed

....anyone doing it?  

_Now, by deep litter I'm referring to a composting type of litter, not merely deep bedding that gets cleaned out in the spring and piled up to compost.  I know a lot of folks use deep bedding in the barns for wintering livestock and that's not exactly what I'm wanting to do.  That's a pain to clean out and try to keep dry...I have no desire to work that hard. _

I've been using a composting deep litter in my coops for some many years now with huge success...keeps the coop smelling fresh, no flies, added warmth in the winter months and keeps the coop drier in the rainy and winter months, even though I have established a rain barrel to catch moisture and ADD it to the bedding under the roosts.  I don't clean it out every year, though I do remove some of the well composted material in my "sink" or "mass" under the roosts to side dress garden plants.   By then it's composted down to a fine powder or fine particles that is lightweight, easily moved and spread...sort of like Salatin's deep manure pack for his cattle, which he works into a fine and composted mass with the use of pigs.

I'd like to try something similar for the sheep to get a jump on the muddy seasons and how that all works in the pens.   Each year I collect many, many bags of leaves to use in my coops, so will be utilizing leaves in the sheep pens as well.  Right now I'm cleaning out the garden and a lot of the items from that will be placed in both coop and sheep pens.  Twigs, bark, pine cones, weeds, vines, corn stalks, shucks, cobs and such will be added as the season goes along.

Since the sheep pens are much larger than my coop, I'll really have to be on top of scrounging enough material to layer in there, as well as adding a good mix of stuff that will create the right air spaces in the mass.


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## Baymule

I don't know if my lack of pick-up-every-poop-berry energy is deep litter in the way you describe it or just because it is vastly easier to throw in some more hay, pine needles or pine shavings. But basically I have a round bale under the roof with access to it from two pens. There is waste hay, short pieces they won't eat, and what they drop, poop and pee on. I scatter the dead hay in the barn. It is coming time to dig it all out, lime the bottom and bed with pine shavings. I clean it out before lambing starts, lime the dirt and deep bed with compressed bales of pine shavings. Most of the ewes lamb outside, only a couple of them lamb in the barn. I like a fresh floor for the lambs. I have hens that scratch up the floor of the barn. There is no smell, few flies and what we dig out goes directly on the garden or pasture.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> It is coming time to dig it all out, lime the bottom and bed with pine shavings.



That's the part I don't do.   I don't do a yearly clean out, but allow things to compost in place until they are fully composted.  Fully composted material should have good bacteria and fungi going on and nothing that should affect the livestock negatively.  

It's a good preventative to overgrowth of coccidia in coops and pens, allows the soil underneath to drain and absorb moisture better and provides cleaner footing as the microbial life, bug and worm life in the soils underneath are constantly consuming the manure and excess urine.  

I did this a little with my last sheep but lacked the ability to build the litter as deeply as I had wished...didn't have access to all these leaves, sticks, pine and such then.  

I can't find any info on anyone doing this...just info on some Swedish folks using deep bedding type housing in winter, but not composting in place like I'd like to see.  They also are using just a few things for material, not varied particle sizes and density of carbon like I find to be useful.  

Bay, is your barn floor cement or dirt?


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## Baymule

It is dirt.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> It is dirt.



Does your litter get pretty moist over the winter months?  Do you think it would get moist enough to keep the litter/bedding wet enough for composting?  

Most of the area I'm using it in will be exposed to the outdoors, so I'm hoping I'll get enough rain/snow to encourage good composting in the areas that are adjacent but under cover.  With only three sheep this winter, I doubt they will pee enough to keep the DL moist enough for composting.


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## Baymule

Yes, even with the dry heat we’ve had, it is moist underneath. The barn hens scratch it up looking for tasty tidbits. The top layer is dry hay. I just throw more on top. It’s getting pretty deep, waiting on cooler weather to clean it out. Lambing should start in mid October and I want it fresh with deep pine shavings. I have places for that Sheep compost to go!


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## Beekissed

Got a start on building some DL in the part of the pen that will receive the most runoff from rain and the most manure and urine.  I cleaned out the garden and placed corn stalks, sunflower stems/stalks, tomato vines, pepper plants, small sticks, weeds and grasses of all kinds in that portion of the pen.  


All these bulky, dense and not easily composted items will help create air spaces in the litter pack and will greatly help moisture exchange , which will help with composting.   Also placed some in the coop, as per usual for this time of year.   

That stuff will make walking through there for watering and such a tad hard until I get the leaves, hay, bark and wood chips added to the pen but they will,ultimately, make for a better DL.  

The chickens stayed busy moving that stuff around in the pen, helping to spread it more evenly across the space.  They will be instrumental in turning a good bit of this DL for me throughout the year, especially when the bugs and worms move into the soils there to work on the manure and carbonaceous materials.


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## mysunwolf

Yes, we did DL last season with a wood floor (bad news for the floor lol), and it worked great. The trick was to use mostly 100% sheep poop with a light layer of wood shavings at the bottom, then minimal bedding. The majority poop did all the work and started to ferment at the bottom, and all I did was stir a thin sprinkling of shavings in every couple months. The sheep stirred it up enough for us. Almost no smell and minimal ammonia.


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## Beekissed

I've got a good start on the main pen, just from a lot of garden waste and hay waste from the round bale I got for that pen....a whole layer of the outside had to be peeled off to get to usable hay.   

Soon I'll be collecting leaves to put in there.  It's been REALLY dry here, dryer than normal, so haven't got the chance to see how the run off meeting this new material will act.  Will it go under it or will it push it along with it?   Remains to be seen.   Most of the runoff has been diverted by a slanted sill at the gate and a trench extending off that.

If our winter is as mild as they have been lately, it's a good chance the sheep will get to range a good bit on pasture and browse, so they won't be subjected too much to penned conditions.  If I had more sheep and less meadow, I'd keep them in winter pen to let the pasture rest, but right now that's not the case.


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## Baymule

My sheep barn needs cleaning out and starting over. I'll be doing that when it cools off. Too hot right now! I have plenty of hay to rebed the barn.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> My sheep barn needs cleaning out and starting over. I'll be doing that when it cools off. Too hot right now! I have plenty of hay to rebed the barn.



Ever thought of doing the Salatin method in that barn, Bay?   Lace it with oats and corn when you add new bedding and just layer it up all winter, then let the pigs in there in the spring to search for all that grain and work it up for you.  

I've seen Salatin's manure pack after the pigs have been in it and it's light as a feather.  Much easier to move all that bedding when it's that lightweight.


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## Baymule

I've read about that. If I had pigs right now, I might try that. The chickens are trying though.


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## Sheepshape

Are folk just adding new bedding to used bedding without cleaning out the old? 

This is my set up.




 

Area around the sheep race is concreted and has just been washed after having sheep in for drenching. Areas to the sides of the sheep race have compacted earth floors ....the one on the left has lime on it. When sheep are coming into the shed overnight at lambing time the left area is converted into lambing jugs and the remainder of the shed is for the main 'bunch'. The earth areas are covered by a fairly thick layer of straw which is changed daily......sodden and pooped up. 



 

I think that what kind of floor covering used and the frequency of changing will depend a lot on the number of sheep that are coming in. The second pic. shows sheep first thing in the morning. A total of 40-50 come in from about a week prior to expected start of lambing. They do tend to sleep fairly close together, so there's a large area on the other side of the sheep shed with only a few sheep, including the ones who are sorting out quiet corners to lamb. Most go out and remain out 2 days after lambing.

The smell of ammonia is quite strong first thing in the morning! It soon smells better after the girls have gone out for the day and the dirty bedding changed.


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## Beekissed

Sheepshape said:


> Are folk just adding new bedding to used bedding without cleaning out the old?



It's a little different in that when cultivating a composting deep litter, it's more effective if a variety of materials are used so that there is no matting down of materials and the use of different particle sizes allows airflow in the mass.  

It's more of a planned system rather than just letting things build up and cleaning it out in the spring...there's intention in the design and nature of the manure pack.   Not just the use of one material as is traditionally used in what commercial systems refer to as deep litter...that's merely deep bedding~that's rather like a large diaper instead of the working DL, which is a living community of healthy microbes, insect and worm life.  

Another thing of great importance is good ventilation, with good air coming in at the bottom and a way for it to escape at the top.   None of that matters much in my pens as they are uncovered, for the most part, and only offer shelter around the hay and watering, so have adequate ventilation at all levels.  

It's best if the DL has a soil floor but it can be done on cement if one is careful to add moisture when it's too dry and keep a bottom layer of compost at the level of the cement, and use it to inoculate the next start of building the DL.   

Salatin does the traditional cattle barn setup in the winter months, confining his cattle to one area and allowing the manure pack to mount up, covering it each day with dry materials of a variety of types but his also has grains in the dry matter....he runs his manure spreader through his cattle barns to cover the daily manure and urine.   The grains ferment inside the mass and the mass composts in place, providing heat for the cows in the winter months.  In doing so, his cattle have to eat less to stay warm and are also not walking around in a soup of manure and urine like most cattle in a winter feed lot.  

In early spring he brings pigs into that area and they root through the deep manure pack, searching for the fermented grains.   All their rooting and moving of the material aerates it...he calls them his Pigaerators...and allows more composting of the materials.   By the time the pigs are done in there, the whole mass is composted fully enough to be spread directly on the fields without any worry of too high nitrogen...it's bound with the carbon and is balanced and ready for use.  

I don't have pigs but I have chickens and they do an excellent job of moving the top layers, but I have to provide air into the bottom levels with large, woody materials like sticks, corn stalks, sunflower stalks, wood bark, etc.  

The DL in my coop has been in there for around 6 yrs now, never fully cleaned out.   There is no smell, no flies, no messy feet...I clean out some each year to side dress the garden with, but I never fully remove all of it...I use it to inoculate the next year's layering of materials there.  I don't turn the bottom levels at all and I just cover the feces under the roosts every other day or so, using the dry materials at the front of the coop to cover feces at the back of the coop....takes a few seconds to flip some dry stuff with the pitchfork and that's all the maintenance I do to it other than keep adding more materials as the old breaks down into rich soil.  

I intentionally pipe rainwater into the bottom layers of the mass with a catchment system, but the top stays totally dry.  

If it's working right, there should be no smell at all except for whatever was deposited freshly that night and has yet to be covered.  

With sheep it could be more simple as the feces and urine are not in one package, like with chickens.   Their urine should be wicked into the bottom layers of the pack and dyer feces remain at the top...if their feces are healthy, dry and formed pellets they shouldn't create too much moisture there.  Using a variety of particle sizes will help the pellets to sift down into the pack and the chickens working the surface will implement that as well.  

If one had no chickens and had a larger barn such as yours, they could run a small cultivator through the top layers to move the feces into the pack and thus eliminate the herd walking around on feces.  Each layer of new materials would also facilitate that.  With hay being the majority of the bedding, one could easily create movement and air spaces by covering the manure pack with something of different density of carbon and a different particle size~I'll be using leaves, wood chip, bark, etc.  

Sounds like a lot of work but the actual work comes in small doses and is brief, ongoing maintenance whereas the traditional barn clean out is not...it's a tough, smelly job that no one likes to do.  If we can let animals and microbial life do most of the work and we~and the sheep~provide the materials, it becomes much more simple.  

I've only ever done it small scale but people like Salatin does it large scale and has figured out how to render perfectly composted material by spring that has no smell other than the smell of dirt.  The added benefit of having no flies and no smell is a wonderful thing.   I've been in sheep barns and they NEVER smell good, even after being shoveled out and hosed down...that ammonia smell lingers.  

If I can find the right balance I'll give updates and detail mistakes made, things learned and the final results.  Should take awhile to build up a working pack in those pens, as I need more material there than in my coop, but I'll be working on it all the while.  It's soooooo worth it in my coop, so I imagine it will be worth it in the sheep pens as well.   

When I listen to how folks are doing their yearly or biannual clean out, about how they are constantly having to fight odor and flies~and illnesses in the flocks or herds~it gives me some satisfaction to know I don't have those issues to worry about.  I'd like to create the same system in my sheep barn so that I can have that same satisfaction of having a self cleaning system that's healthier for the animals.


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## Baymule

My sheep barn actually only has one side, the other 3 are open. There is a small plywood shelter in there, 8'x8' that was my original shelter. The roof is 20'x24' and has a metal roof with heat barrier under the metal. I throw the dead hay, what they won't eat, on the ground. I have 5 barn hens that scratch and turn it daily. I clean a great deal out when needed for compost, then throw down more hay, leaves or pine shavings.


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## Beekissed

@Baymule , here's a vid about using the pigs to aerate your barn bedding pack...I've seen it in person and he's right.  No smell, light to move and easy to spread out later on.


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## Sheepshape

I think that I have too many sheep for not cleaning daily. As my sheep often give birth overnight in the shed, there are areas of straw soaked with blood/amniotic fluid/afterbirths  etc  which are a potent bearer of infection if left to lie around and are my first clean up task in the morning. The sheep area has CCTV (lamb cam) which relays to the TV in the house about 150 yards away and has reduced by about 90% my previously many nightly trips to the shed to check on ewes who may have gone into labour. ( A costly but very useful addition!)

We had our 'shed' purpose built. It is divided into two sides....one for the sheep and the other for wood/logs, machinery, workshop area etc. The 'workshop side has a mezzanine floor which houses all types of 'stuff'.....old coops, aquaria, bikes etc etc.
The sheep side (shown above) has concrete panels at the bottom to stop the biting winds of early Spring and a slatted wall above to give good ventilation. It is only smelly first thing in the morning before the straw change. All the barn 'sweepings' go into a pile and rot down for a high nitrogen garden compost. 

About 20 of my chickens have decided to adopt the sheep shed as their home and perch up at night on the hurdles. It seems to work out fine . Several hens use the little hay feeders which slot over the hurdles to lay their eggs in. 

The system that I use means that, though there is a high throughput of sheep  and quite 'close quarters' overnight, infection and smell are minimised.


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## Baymule

When the girls are lambing, I deep bed with pine shavings and I do clean out the birthing mess for the very reasons you mentioned @Sheepshape.


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## Sheepshape

Baymule said:


> I do clean out the birthing mess for the very reasons you mentioned @Sheepshape.


.Though the stuff is sterile when deposited, the presence of blood and protein-rich fluid makes it worse than faeces for infection. A few of the girls eat the afterbirths, but most go onto my compost heap from which they are taken by crows mainly. This source of meat deters them bothering  newborn lambs.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> When the girls are lambing, I deep bed with pine shavings and I do clean out the birthing mess for the very reasons you mentioned @Sheepshape.



I'm wondering what would happen if you had a good composting DL going~not just deep bedding~ and you just buried that birthing mess in it each time it happens.   Putting it underneath where it can't touch the sheep would give it a chance to be consumed and incorporated into the bedding without it affecting the sheep.  

If I did that here the dogs would just dig it up and eat it anyway, so likely I'll be letting the dogs clean up the mess.  They did last time and were quite effective at getting all of it out of the way.


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## Beekissed

I haven't found anyone on the net that is talking about using a composting deep litter in sheep shelters or even in goat shelters.  I guess I'm going to have to be the guinea pig on that....which isn't new territory for me, so it should be fun.  

The only info out there is using deep bedding, which is vastly different than a planned, intentionally built for good composting, deep litter.  Deep bedding is just a huge diaper, which is why it always presents problems, particularly to clean out in the spring.  Ick.


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## Sheepshape

Beekissed said:


> I'm wondering what would happen if you had a good composting DL going~not just deep bedding~ and you just buried that birthing mess in it each time it happens. Putting it underneath where it can't touch the sheep would give it a chance to be consumed and incorporated into the bedding without it affecting the sheep.


 I think that there would be just too much of it. If they are in for any length of time, there's just a heap of excrement. They're not small sheep and seem to poop many times in the day. When the maximum number of 50 or so are in, then the smell of ammonia is strong before cleaning out in the morning, and that wouldn't be solved by deep litter system. Most of the girls have twins and that's a lot of placentas, too.

I accept that a daily 'clean up' in lambing season, though hard work, has resulted in avery low infection rate even with a high stock density. Nothing goes to waste, though. The sodden straw rots up very fast and is the best  organic compost ever.


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## Baymule

A ewe had twins today, in the barn. Usually they lamb in the pasture. I got a shovel and scooped up the afterbirth and goo and buried it in the garden. Then I laid down fresh hay. Just this morning I told my husband that we need to clean out the barn, lay down hay and deep bed with pine shavings. I like to start fresh when the lambs are due, these snuck up on me. This ewe lambed in the barn last year too. 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/ringo’s-lambs-baymule’s-5th-lambing.40081/#post-625774


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## Beekissed

Why don't you let the dogs clean it up instead of burying it?  Is that some big no-no with LGDs that I haven't heard about?    Good and good for them, my dogs loved it.  

I intend for the sheep to be lambing in the pasture, so no issues with afterbirth and blood in the DL I'm building in the pens.  The dogs can't reach down there, but the chickens will clean it up pretty quickly.  

I take it from the lack of responses on this thread about composting DL for sheep that no one has actually done it , so it will be interesting to see how it goes.  I'll post pics and such as I build it and then start to use it effectively.  

I can't find anyone or info out on the web about anyone using it either, but not surprising.  It wasn't too long ago one couldn't find anything about using it for chickens either but it's slowly catching on with a few people and becoming a growing practice, though I think people still can't grasp the concept of not cleaning it out every year.   Maybe they haven't yet achieved true composting yet and so it is still more deep bedding than working compost.


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## Sheepshape

Beekissed said:


> Is that some big no-no with LGDs that I haven't heard about?


 I can't think of any problems with dogs eating placentas. In my case there are way too many for the dogs and I use them as 'bribes' to the crows/foxes/kites/buzzards (our main lamb predators), so that they are less hungry and more likely to leave the lambs alone. Crows are the main consumers here.

Actually there's a lot of 'old wives' tales about eating placenta....from those ladies who eat their own to those folk who think placentas are somehow taboo even to touch. Admittedly if a ewe has toxoplasmosis and aborts then the abortus and placenta are teeming with organisms, but, beyond that, it's like any other piece of meat. In the case of sheep it looks rather like a disjointed bunch of grapes, but that's about the length and breadth of the 'creepiness factor'. My neighbour, mid-seventies, and a life-long sheep farmer says he would never knowingly let a ewe eat her placenta. To me, this vegetarian animal has an instinct to get a protein boost at a time when she most needs it, and I have no problem with her or any other animal eating them.

Beekissed, keep us updated with how you get on. 

My girls are out by day, but quite a few of the ewes choose to come back to the shed to lamb as they feel safe there. My girls who are expecting singletons do not come in at night, so they always lamb outside, but, as sheep do, choose an area along the hedge line to lamb in order to avoid the gaze of predators.


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## Beekissed

Sheepshape said:


> To me, this vegetarian animal has an instinct to get a protein boost at a time when she most needs it, and I have no problem with her or any other animal eating them.



I agree!  And, it seems that some will and some won't, so I figure it's all about their individual nutritional needs at the time.  

I'll definitely let you guys know about how the DL goes, the good, the bad and the ugly.   I figure I'll never know until I try it, so may as well give it a good try.


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## Baymule

The only dog with access to the sheep barn right now, and lambing ewes is Paris, due to the new puppy that doesn't need to be running rampant with the ewes at this time. Sentry, the puppy has a part of the barn, is next to the ewes in the lamb's weaning pen, and can see, smell and hear all the goings on. 

Paris doesn't sleep in the barn, preferring her dog cave or dog house in the back yard. She is very respectful to lambs and new moms, sometimes she eats the placenta, sometimes not. Trip will ask to go in with the ewes so he can eat the placenta. So, sometimes it is a dog treat, sometimes I bury it.


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## misfitmorgan

I think what we do every winter is a sort of composting floor. It is intentional but we do still have a big spring clean out so we can let our cement floors breath thru the summer and powerwash then bleach everything.

We let our bedding build up hay, straw, wood chips, spilled shell corn, spilled chop, minerals, etc. Then we house our poultry in the barn so they turn everything and our pigs turn everything. Then we keep adding dry bedding on top. It all ferments and makes heat. By spring it is mostly all composted and go outside next to the garden. It doesnt really have any smell until we start cleaning it out in the spring ten it does smell but i believe that is mostly due to the cement floor not allowing the urine to drain away. After the barn gets cleaned out and powerwashed them bleached sweet lime is put down and we use minimal bedding until late fall.

So i would say it isnt exactly deep bedding because it is turned and aerated and particle sizes vary as well as grain fermenting but it isnt exactly a carefully planned compost floor either. I think the only problems we have found is sheep/goats eatting the bedding.


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## Baymule

We were talking about dogs and placenta...... LOL Miranda Lambed twins last night in the side pasture. Paris claimed her prize.


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## Baymule

Lily lambed a single tonight-in the pasture, in the sand. So if they have the choice of where to lamb, most choose outside. They go away from the others to lamb, that does help keep the barn cleaner


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## Beekissed

Added leaves and twigs to the sheep pens on Sat.  Will continue to add things that are large enough to add air spaces and things fine enough to compost down as the fall season progresses.  

Got some good rain last night and today and that was sorely needed.   Have some cooler weather coming up and that will bring down more leaves to gather.


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## Baymule

We got an inch of rain last night and it cooled off.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> We got an inch of rain last night and it cooled off.



We got rain too and are just as happy! Cool and lots of steady rain to soak deep into the soil.  I was needing that to get our fall forage going....this is the month our chickens grow fat on mostly fall bugs, legumes and tall fescue and the sheep are needing it as well.  

Sept. was dry all month and horribly hot for this region, so it slowed all that good fall vendor way down.   The sheep still got good and fat anyway and so are going into breeding season with a good body condition and no need for flushing.  

Bay, I sure wish you could watch some of Greg Judy's vids on YT...he's got some of the same ideas I've had for years and never got to implement, but he's proven they work and that's a huge win for me to see that it does work if you work it right.  He doesn't worm, vaccinate nor flush his sheep, nor his cattle and you should see them and their offspring...simply amazing!


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## secuono

Isn't there a risk of fire?

I did the yearly, let them build it up themselves with all the waste hay, until this year. This time, they managed to make it into a bizarre concrete-like layer that I still haven't fully removed...
I also hated how much they wasted. Hay is too precious and dollars too few to buy straw for it. 
Easier to regularly sweep it out.


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## Beekissed

secuono said:


> Isn't there a risk of fire?
> 
> I did the yearly, let them build it up themselves with all the waste hay, until this year. This time, they managed to make it into a bizarre concrete-like layer that I still haven't fully removed...
> I also hated how much they wasted. Hay is too precious and dollars too few to buy straw for it.
> Easier to regularly sweep it out.



It's a moist compost pile, so I can't imagine any fire taking hold there...it would merely smoke or just fizzle out.  

It's not a simple let the bedding build up kind of thing...this is a planned, layered, composting bed of a variety of materials and air spaces to promote good composting.    It's adding more dry on wet areas and flipping wetter stuff into the dry areas until it's a uniformly moist but not wet bed of composting materials.   The top layer would be dry, but underneath all kinds of good things are happening.  

I'm not buying a thing but their original hay and even that I fix so there is minimal wasting going on, by keeping cattle panels tight to the bales.  There will be some hay, mostly leaves, garden waste of corn stalks, sunflower stalks, tomato and squash vines, twigs, sticks, bark and wood chip from our getting in firewood.  I'll even be emptying some ashes from the wood fire in there in thin layers so the carbon can be added to the mix.  

It's not hard work but more of a monitoring, adding carbon, and building it right.  I've been doing this for 6 yrs in my coop now and haven't had to take out anything but finished, rich soil/mulch that's fine as powder and fluff.  No smells, no flies, no cakes, no heavy lifting and no ammonia.  

Since sheep give more and better nitrogen, well scattered and not concentrated under a sleeping area, it should be a snap to build a good, composting deep litter.  It requires a lot of ventilation at all levels, which I have, and just the addition of all sorts of carbon and some moisture.  Creates a thick sponge that wicks moisture to the bottom and leaves the top layer like a forest floor...good smelling, good footing, and a healthy digestor of fecal matter.


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## Beekissed

Did a little fork work in the pens this morning, placing wet stuff over bare soils and dry stuff over wet stuff until it's all evenly distributed.  I put some of the build up that accumulates near the hay bale over by the fence where the sheep tend to pace or scratch themselves when in the pen.  

Right now there's a lovely breeze that will dry out the upper layers but I've trapped all that lovely moisture below a cap of carbon, so now good things can happen there.   

In one pen the waterer has a slow leak and I was going to fix that...but have found it adds some much needed moisture in that corner so that the material there can compost downward.  That part of the pen stays pretty dry but I'd like it to have a bit more moisture if it's going to do what it needs to do.  

A few minutes of light fork work now and again verses huge removal of urine and poop impregnated bedding that smells foul and has to be piled up to compost...it's an easy decision for me.


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## Beekissed

Placed some charred logs in the sheep pens yesterday...the ram lamb immediately gave it a nibble~he'll try anything to see if it's food.  I'll place the rest of the charcoal from the apple butter making into the pens as well....that will make a great moisture wick and the charred wood is something animals will eat to rid themselves of parasites.  

My grandmother used to give her pigs charred wood and also gave them her dishwater(she used lye soap), said it kept them healthier.  She didn't know that both things work to rid them of worms.  Anecdotal things but if they work, they work.


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## B&B Happy goats

Our goats go to the wood burning pit and nibble on the chared wood also , great idea about putting the charred logs in the pens to wick up moisture.


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## mystang89

I'm a bit late to the party but I recently (within the past 2 months) replaced the dirt and hay I was using in my girls stall with wood chips.  I have 4 full grown Awassi Ewes who stay the night in their stall every night.  Before I replaced the dirt and hay I was cleaning it out at least 2 to 3 times a week.  On top of that it was wasting much of my hay and it still had that ammonia smell by the end of the week.  

My children and I dug down about 2 feet deep and replaced ALL the dirt with wood chips.  This is an area of about 15' x 8' (I'm ball parking it as I'm not in there nor have I ever measured it.)  Since that time, I have only dug up a small spot, literally about a 3' in diameter spot, put more wood chips down, and that was it.  I've done this one time in all the time it's been since I've replaced it.  I have no smell, I walk through without feeling like I'm walking through a sloggy, marshy, mess.  I'm happy, the children are happy, (they were the ones who had to clean it) and the sheep are happy plus they don't look like they've slept in their pee and poop anymore.

I'm sure sometime in the spring I will go through and replace it, but the day it takes me to dig it out and replace is WELL worth it.


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## Beekissed

Sounds like a vast improvement!   Could be you won't want to take it out in the spring but just let it compost in place and just add fresh layers now and again.  A couple of years of that and you'll be taking out some of the best compost you'll have ever made.  I have a feeling you won't have any problems with smells or flies either.  

With a composting deep litter it's not like they are walking around on a foot or two of poop and pee, as that all gets digested into the mass and is never seen or smelled again.  As long as it's kept moist under there and not disturbed too much in the bottom layers, one can flip dry stuff on the top in a thin layer and let the poop just be digested by the various bug, worm and microbial life in the mass.  

I'm going to do a little experiment this winter if I can get my paddocks built and hotwired.  I've got a 2-4 in. layer of mulch hay in most of the paddock space and I think I'll move the sheep over sections of that this winter so they can trample that into the ground, add poop and pee and then move on to the fresh stuff and do the same.  Before spring I can move them back into the pens to let those paddocks rest and start growing some good grass.  By lambing time I should be able to put them out in those paddocks again. 

It would be sort of doing deep litter in a larger area and letting it compost right on the ground as the rains and bugs work on it and bring it into the soils.  

Just need to work on a portable hay/water/mineral bunker to move along with them.


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## Beekissed

Still building the DL in the sheep pens, with good results.   Have lately placed large pieces of bark from our wood splitting for the year, wood fragments, corn stalks/shucks, and leaves in the pens.   Put the bark in the higher traffic areas that will be churned to mud by the end of winter...will continue to place larger bits there to prevent that.  

It's starting to get that springy mass feeling to it, with dryer stuff on top, wet stuff at the bottom.   The chickens help with distributing things more evenly, as do the ducks.   I also take the pitchfork in there on sunny days and take wet stuff and spread it in the thin areas so it can dry and dry stuff tossed onto the wet stuff.   

It's starting to look, feel and act GOOD.  Will continue to add leaves and woody debris, and redistribute the hay so as to create a thick, even sponge of composting materials.  

Far better than a mud slick mess with poop everywhere or a sodden mess of hay that stinks of urine.  No smells thus far in this DL.


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## mystang89

Glad to hear you're not having the smell. It's been over 6 months since I put mulch down and I'm just now starting to smell anything but it still "looks" dry and clean. By spring I'll have to get in there and clean it. We'll see how bad that is. 
Hope yours lasts just as long.


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## Beekissed

mystang89 said:


> Glad to hear you're not having the smell. It's been over 6 months since I put mulch down and I'm just now starting to smell anything but it still "looks" dry and clean. By spring I'll have to get in there and clean it. We'll see how bad that is.
> Hope yours lasts just as long.



I don't have as many sheep as most and they aren't in the sheep pens very often, so it's likely I haven't had the full effect of manure/urine that most have.   Time will tell.


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## Baymule

Mine love their barn so much that when it is hot and they are in a pasture not connected to the barn, they go to the gate and yell at me to go back home. They want to ruminate in their barn! It's not really a barn, it's open on 3 sides, but they love it. I put radiant heat barrier under the metal roof, it cuts the heat by 10 to 15 degrees. 

So I get a lot of poop in the barn! I scatter the hay they don't eat in the barn. Chickens scratch and turn it, it stays dry on top and it doesn't smell. I am tossing the hay stemmy parts they don't eat, daily on the floor.


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## Coolbreeze89

I have a 10x20 shelter for my 7 doelings that I am trying to work out a bedding plan for, so I love this thread! They have access to their shelter and a large corral area at night, and they range on 3-4acres during the day.  I have sandy ground that seems to hold the pee (and the girls insist on peeing right in front of the hay rack, so it really builds up).  Even with 3x a week cleaning and PDZ, it always smelled like urine (when mostly closed up - always some airflow). Based on this thread, I’ll try just leaving the soiled hay, and I’ve already started adding pine shavings to try to help with the urine. Has anyone used the compressed pellets to better absorb the urine? They should compost down easier than the shavings, I’d think.  I don’t have a ton of tree leaves to add to the mix, but I’ll put in what I can. Just to be clear: I SHOULDN’T thoroughly mix the layers (once bulit up), but more just “surface mixing”? I can let my chickens/pigs in to root around, too (I like the idea of spreading some corn to “target” their work.  I already do this in the chicken run to get them to turn the areas that aren’t breaking down as fast).


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## Baymule

You are in central Texas, the climate is the same as mine. Can you take down part of the wall and replace with wire? The wire would still close them up and keep them safe and it would allow air flow to carry the ammonia fumes away. No, don't stir it up. If there is still a urine smell, sprinkle garden lime over it. Garden lime can be found in the garden department at Lowes or feed stores. I buy the dolomite lime and offer it to my sheep also. They need it when pregnant and lactating. You can put other lime on the urine places, but I only offer the dolomite lime to my sheep. 

If you let pigs in there for a day, they will root it up and turn it for you. If you are wanting to clean the shelter, it is a good way to loosen everything up, making it easier to shovel. Chickens will keep the top layer turned and dry.

If you are going to use it on the garden, I wouldn't use the pellet stuff in the barn. I guess it would be ok, but I try to be as organic as I can. My thought is, whats in the pellets and do I want it to wind up in my vegetables. 

People are raking their leaves now, drive through town and ask if you can have the bags of leaves. People will think you are nuts, but will gladly let you have them.


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## farmerjan

One thing that you might want to consider, is to make the shelter on some sort of "runners" so it can be moved around the lot/field that you have them in.  It will not accomplish the deep litter that is being discussed here, but like a chicken tractor, it will spread out the manure and such more evenly across an area.  Several farmers have shade cloths in the pastures for their cows.  They can be moved so that the cows are not constantly doing their manure and peeing in the same spot all the time to make a muddy and smelly mess.  It can still be pretty much animal proof but something that you can pull with a garden tractor, or small all purpose tractor, or your pickup.... You would pull it from the "solid side" so the manure, bedding etc., would just be "left behind";  and you could make the doors on that "open side" with fairly heavy bottom boards  so they would withstand a predator.  

One thing I have found with the "chicken tractors" is the varmints don't bother them as much if I move them frequently than they do when they stay in one place for awhile.  Especially foxes, coyotes, even coons.  I think that the change of places makes them feel less familiar.  Possums are another story, they will do anything because their brain is not smart enough to equate with a different spot as a possible "trap" for them.  I would think that the Moveable sheep shelter would be the same principle.   Sure would save on the shoveling and pitchforking.....


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## Beekissed

Coolbreeze89 said:


> I have a 10x20 shelter for my 7 doelings that I am trying to work out a bedding plan for, so I love this thread! They have access to their shelter and a large corral area at night, and they range on 3-4acres during the day.  I have sandy ground that seems to hold the pee (and the girls insist on peeing right in front of the hay rack, so it really builds up).  Even with 3x a week cleaning and PDZ, it always smelled like urine (when mostly closed up - always some airflow). Based on this thread, I’ll try just leaving the soiled hay, and I’ve already started adding pine shavings to try to help with the urine. Has anyone used the compressed pellets to better absorb the urine? They should compost down easier than the shavings, I’d think.  I don’t have a ton of tree leaves to add to the mix, but I’ll put in what I can. Just to be clear: *I SHOULDN’T thoroughly mix the layers (once bulit up), but more just “surface mixing”? I can let my chickens/pigs in to root around, too (I like the idea of spreading some corn to “target” their work.  I already do this in the chicken run to get them to turn the areas that aren’t breaking down as fast).*



You are right...just surface mixing....you'll want to trap the moisture of the manure and urine under a top layer....sometimes that means taking a fork and lightly flipping dryer bedding on top of the areas where they like to poop or moving the top layers of that into dryer areas and capping both the moved moist and the moist left behind with a dry layer.  

Only takes a few moments if your bedding is deep enough and has different particle sizes so that it's easy to move, toss, layer.  

Anything you can use to create air spaces and break up heavy matting like one would get with just straw or hay bedding will help you be able to move it for these distributions of moisture.  Wood chip, woody stems or stalks, leaves, straw, hay, etc.   I've found the more varied the mix, the more successful DL is.  

You can turn the pigs in there in the spring when the goats are out on pasture more and let them toss it until all layers or more dry and easy to move...or to just compost more in place.   I usually take out some in the spring and apply it directly onto the garden if it's composted enough....you'll know if it is, as it will have no smell but the smell of soil/mulch/dirt.   That gives me more room to build it deeper.


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## Coolbreeze89

Baymule said:


> You are in central Texas, the climate is the same as mine. Can you take down part of the wall and replace with wire? The wire would still close them up and keep them safe and it would allow air flow to carry the ammonia fumes away. No, don't stir it up. If there is still a urine smell, sprinkle garden lime over it. Garden lime can be found in the garden department at Lowes or feed stores. I buy the dolomite lime and offer it to my sheep also. They need it when pregnant and lactating. You can put other lime on the urine places, but I only offer the dolomite lime to my sheep.
> 
> If you let pigs in there for a day, they will root it up and turn it for you. If you are wanting to clean the shelter, it is a good way to loosen everything up, making it easier to shovel. Chickens will keep the top layer turned and dry.
> 
> If you are going to use it on the garden, I wouldn't use the pellet stuff in the barn. I guess it would be ok, but I try to be as organic as I can. My thought is, whats in the pellets and do I want it to wind up in my vegetables.
> 
> People are raking their leaves now, drive through town and ask if you can have the bags of leaves. People will think you are nuts, but will gladly let you have them.



Hubby and I keep going back and forth on our best plan for long-term animal housing, so for now they have a vinyl fabric “carport” that is located within their corral space (surrounded by 6ft high panels).  They can come and go from their shelter into their area, as it is never sealed up completely.  Every time I read about you and other experienced people’s animals happy with a minimal shelter, I chuckle at my over-protection!  Days like today (81 and sunny), every side is opened up.  Heavy rain days or days below 40, I keep the sides down. Even when all sides are down, there is still airflow, I just notice the smell more.  The last few days, since finding this thread, I’ve spread out the wet bedding a bit, then added more spent hay or pine shavings, and it is smelling better! I’ve got a ways to go before I’d call the litter “deep”, though.  With this wind today, I’m finally getting some leaves off my post oak trees, so I’ll add those in, too.

Thanks everyone!


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## Baymule

@Coolbreeze89 this thread has pictures of the first pitiful little shelter I built, it still stands, they love to lay inside it, cold or hot weather. It has pictures of the "roof" that has one solid side. We rolled out radiant heat barrier over the tar paper, under the metal. It keeps the barn cooler by 10 to 20 degrees. 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/sheep-barn.37581/



Later, I built a small night pen that has a share of the "barn" for shelter. It currently houses our new puppy at night. He is 6 months old, he is "with" the sheep at night, but not able to chew on or chase the lambs. 

The bag of animal crackers was in preparation for the arrival of Ringo, our ram. 
 
​






I put the round bale under the barn with a cow panel square around it. One side is the night pen pictured above, I have two half panels on the inside of the barn and a cow panel that forms part of the barn fence is the other side. So the hay bale is accessible from the barn, the small night pen and the front pasture. You can see part of it in the background of this picture.

 
​


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## Sheepshape

Deep litter with infrequent changes sounds great, but I think it would depend on the number of sheep to be housed being relatively small. Though I lamb outside as much as possible, ewes expecting multiples come in overnight and I may have up to 60 in the shed in lambing time. Ewes who are have had more than one lamb stay in the shed for about 48 hours.
  The shed  floor is mainly compacted earth over which I lay bedding straw and change daily (traditional, a lot of work, but keeps them disease-free in a 'tight' environment).


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## Baymule

We all use what works best for us. Most of my ewes lamb outside. I give them the choice by opening the gate to a side pasture. There are a few that choose the barn, then I clean up the birthing fluids and afterbirth. Deep litter works for me, I have 10 ewes. I would love to have 60, but I don't have the room for that many.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

G'day,my understanding of D L is its the depth of the litter that effects the outcome and i suspect that you would need some sort of a "starter" to get things going.As i understand it in the "old days"the litter was just "topped up" for the whole of winter and cleaned out in the Spring to be spread onto the pastures....Unfortunately straw bedding is expensive,but i recall years ago a Goat dairy who used it as the goats were held overnight for the mornings milk and were on pasture during daylight hours,the barn was open on one side for ventilation and the bedding was the height of a small square bale which were tightly packed on the floor area before the strings were cut.It appears that once decomposition started the heat generated kept the smell down and killed all of the "bad bugs".anyway it seemed to work for them.In another goat dairy the whole barn floor was elevated steel mesh and a person could work underneath it to top up and keep air-rated and topped up...T.O.R.


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## Beekissed

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> my understanding of D L is its the depth of the litter that effects the outcome



Definitely.   I've also found that it's not only depth, but particle size and density, as well as air spaces in the pack that determine if it composts well in place.   I think the reason so many people have poor results from DL with livestock of all kinds is due to using the same type of litter throughout the building of the manure pack.    This creates an anaerobic litter pack that not only smells but isn't healthy nor composting.  

Using a variety of carbonaceous materials will help create natural air spaces and different rates of binding with manure and urine, thus increasing the chances of composting and the heat that results from it.   Good ventilation at all levels is key for letting the humidity that arises from the pack to be wafted up and out the top of the structure so it doesn't settle on the animals and create a chill that wouldn't otherwise be there.  

In the coop, when the DL is working properly, I can read temps of 10* warmer at roost height than ambient temps, with heat up to 98* inside the litter pack itself on days in the single digits and teens outside.   And I have a VERY open air coop, so I'm not trapping any of that warmth, but rather letting passive fresh air in at the bottom to send the warm air from the pack upward and out the top of the coop....with the chickens benefiting from that warm air flow.


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## Coolbreeze89

Baymule said:


> @Coolbreeze89 this thread has pictures of the first pitiful little shelter I built, it still stands, they love to lay inside it, cold or hot weather. It has pictures of the "roof" that has one solid side. We rolled out radiant heat barrier over the tar paper, under the metal. It keeps the barn cooler by 10 to 20 degrees.
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/sheep-barn.37581/
> 
> 
> 
> Later, I built a small night pen that has a share of the "barn" for shelter. It currently houses our new puppy at night. He is 6 months old, he is "with" the sheep at night, but not able to chew on or chase the lambs.
> 
> The bag of animal crackers was in preparation for the arrival of Ringo, our ram.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I put the round bale under the barn with a cow panel square around it. One side is the night pen pictured above, I have two half panels on the inside of the barn and a cow panel that forms part of the barn fence is the other side. So the hay bale is accessible from the barn, the small night pen and the front pasture. You can see part of it in the background of this picture.


We go through quite a few animal crackers here, too.  My pigs (and dogs) love “pig newton’s” as well! (I get the HEB branded fig newtons. Cheap treat that’s good for motivating them to go where they don’t wanna go!).


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## Beekissed

I use dog biscuits.


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## Baymule

Pig treats here are boiled eggs. They will load themselves in the trailer for boiled eggs!


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## Coolbreeze89

Baymule said:


> Pig treats here are boiled eggs. They will load themselves in the trailer for boiled eggs!


I chuckled when I read your post about luring your big boar with the eggs (darn neighbors!). I told my husband we’d have to remember that trick.


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## Beekissed

The sheep were penned up for 5 days and you can barely tell they were there....the addition of the leaves to the DL allows the sheep pellets to fall into the litter pack and even though we had rain during that time, the surface is light, fluffy and dry looking.  

Will continue to add leaves, bark and twigs to the pack there, as it's looking GREAT and I see no runoff from the rains moving any of the litter at all...tells me it's absorbing into the pack but not saturating it enough to wash it away.


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## Beekissed

We've had some hard rains followed by some light ones, but the DL is holding up thus far.   It's light and spongy to walk upon, no areas of too much mud except in front of one pen....I'll fill in there with some bark to hold the soil and top it with some leaves.   Even there it's not real muddy....just a little.  

No smells, though the sheep have been penned in for several days  now, the poop and urine seems to be working its way down into the DL rather than lying on top or saturating it to the surface.   That's what I wanted to see...the air spaces created by woody items at the bottom should allow for good drainage there, while the hay and leaves should help keep the top dryer and fluffier.  

The next windy day we get I'll go up there and toss a  little of the wetter  litter material into thin, dry areas and dry stuff onto wetter areas so that the DL gets a chance to be evenly moist in all areas.   Usually just takes a minute to do that and regular maintenance of the DL in that manner makes for an even, thick, spongy layer that is moist on bottom but able to dry out and stay dryer on top.  

So far I'm pleased with how it's working.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

G'day Bee,just out of interest how deep is the litter layer?If you scoop out a hole in the middle does it feel "hotter' as the decomposition of material starts to take place?This is great information you are providing and should encourage others to try this type of system out...T.O.R.


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## Beekissed

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day Bee,just out of interest how deep is the litter layer?If you scoop out a hole in the middle does it feel "hotter' as the decomposition of material starts to take place?This is great information you are providing and should encourage others to try this type of system out...T.O.R.



Not deep enough for that yet, but it should get that way when it reaches a foot or more deep.  In the coop I can get temps up to 98-100 at those depths on days that are in the teens and 20s.   If I build steadily, I may be able to reach that depth in their most frequent lounging area by the time it gets cold enough to need that extra heat.  

Right now I'm around 8 in. deep in some areas and only 4 in. in others.  It's a pretty large area to build up, so it creates a challenge.


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## Beekissed

Added several more bags of leaves to the sheep pens today, both wet and dry leaves.   Mostly placing the dry where the bedding would tend to get more wet from urine, under shelter, and the wet anywhere out in the open areas where there is the most foot travel.   

It has rained here for two solid days and nights and the DL seems to be absorbing that well, considering it's all on a slope there and the water tends to run towards the building.  It used to wash whatever ground cover that was there further down the slope, but now it just seems to either be absorbed into the mass or runs beneath it, as it's not moving any litter, though the rains were very hard. 

There's only one muddy looking place leading into the most used feeding area right now but even then it has a good base of cypress  mulch in that area to keep it firm....that's where all the water wants to run to on that slope, so it's no surprise that's the muddiest area.   

In the hoop shelter where they had already consumed a 5x5 round bale...I didn't mind letting them waste a bit of hay in that area to establish a base for lounging.  Added dry leaves there today, with the added benefit of giving them some additional variety to their diet.   










In the other side of the run with the most foot traffic....the leaves are dry on top, though we've had all that rain, so it makes for a springy but still solid footing for the sheep, who have been confined to these pens for the past 3 wks or so.  









The other side of the pen has more depth to it, as it was the place I added the most material earlier on, so it's even more dry on the surface.   Now I'm starting to concentrate on getting some depth in this side...right now it's no more than around 3 in. at best.  

All in all I'm pretty pleased with how well it's keeping down the mud and smells of urine and feces...can't really smell those at all.  Don't know how well it would perform for the same in hotter weather, but hopefully I'll not need to find out.   It will take a few years of building a good base there for it to do well in all seasons, I figure.


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## The Old Ram-Australia

G'day Bee, can we see some more "detail" of the log barn?Using old pallets as dividers is another great use of a "waste" material....T.O.R.


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## Beekissed

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day Bee, can we see some more "detail" of the log barn?Using old pallets as dividers is another great use of a "waste" material....T.O.R.



TOR, that's just an old storage shed my Dad threw up around 20-25 yrs ago, but we don't use it as a barn.   I do use part of the front porch of it for one of the feeding stations/pens but that's all just temporary.   We'll be building a barn/multipurpose shed down towards the front of the place this year for the pens and sorting pens.  

Until then, the pallets and CP came in handy to erect a temporary holding pen and shelter for the flock until I can get everything the way I want it here.  

Will be using some supersized pallets(10 ftx 4-5 ft) to help in building the permanent pens and barn....got those for free also.   I like recycling free materials whenever I can.  

Hay feeder in the porch of the log shed...





This whole pen was from free and recycled wood, even the gates.    It ain't pretty but it gets me there until I can build the other barn/shed and then put this one back into a multipurpose pen....used to be an extra broody pen for the chooks.


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## Coolbreeze89

THANK YOU for the DL info.  All my oaks finally shed their leaves, and the wind blew piles up against my fencing.  I’ve been wheelbarrowing them into my goat “barn”, and I’ve had zero smell issues ever since!!  I mix in the dropped hay as well as some sticks, etc to keep the texture varied as you suggested. I’m so pleased. Thanks for this fabulous thread!


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## Beekissed

Coolbreeze89 said:


> THANK YOU for the DL info.  All my oaks finally shed their leaves, and the wind blew piles up against my fencing.  I’ve been wheelbarrowing them into my goat “barn”, and I’ve had zero smell issues ever since!!  I mix in the dropped hay as well as some sticks, etc to keep the texture varied as you suggested. I’m so pleased. Thanks for this fabulous thread!



I'm so glad it's working out well for you!   I've found that varied materials work so much better than just one....it keeps it from matting down into a big, sodden mat of urine soaked mess.   Right now I'm seeing the sheep pellets sort of disappearing into the leaves, which is kind of cool.   The bugs and worms will find them under that good ground cover and utilize them more quickly now.   

The chickens love to scratch in all of that, so that too helps the poop disappear and scratches dry material over the wet spots.   They help tremendously to keep it all balanced.


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## Beekissed

Finally found someone who had been doing this with goats and the heat readings on that litter pack were amazing!!!  That's in temps -7* F ambient temps!


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## Baymule

I am eyeing all the oak leaves on our ground. I am waiting on Monday, DH goes back to the doctor, after have cataract surgery on both eyes. He'll get turned loose on Monday, then we have a list of chores to do. On the list is dig the sheep compost out of the barn, spread on the garden, then fill the barn with leaves. I deep littered for years in the chicken coops. It is a great way to keep the barn "clean" instead of raking and cleaning constantly. It is also a great way to make garden gold.


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## Beekissed

The DL is working great....2 wks of solid rain, day and night, really put it to the test and it held steady.   Spongy, absorbent and no strong smells at all.   We'll see if it will hold out for the winter with the same results, as I add layers of material along the way.  

The chickens are keeping the manure pellets worked into the DL, which is pretty nice.  The pic below is in the highest traffic area, where they get water and move from one feeding/mineral station to the other.  





On our coldest day I sat down right next to this hay bale, to see if the DL there was damp, to see if I could smell any ammonia smells down there, etc.    Dry as can be, very cushy and soft, not a pellet to be seen or urine smell to be sniffed.   This area is downhill from the rain runoff, so I expected there to be WAY more moisture there, but there wasn't.  I guess the DL had absorbed it before it got that far, but this little shelter is warm, dry and sweet smelling.  The DL there is over a foot deep, so any moisture is way down there and capped off with the leaves and wasted hay.


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## Baymule

That is awesome. Deep litter provides good bedding for sheep. In turn, the deep litter provides rich compost for the garden. Bee you are doing a great job for your sheep.


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## Beekissed

Thank you, Bay!  But....it's likely due to only having a few sheep, you think?  When I get an actual herd, things like that won't be so easy to manage.   Not at all.   Hopefully, by then, it won't be an issue, as they will never be in pens for any length of time, but out on stockpiled pasture for winter time.


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## Baymule

Haha, you will just rake up some more leaves! My sheep barn is deep with reject hay, almost hate to disturb it, but I need compost for the garden. LOL


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## Beekissed

Spent a little time today shuffling around things in the sheep pen, tightening down panels against depleted bales and moving DL around to cover high traffic areas and take some thickness off areas that need it less.  

Only took a couple of minutes of fork work to even things out, which I love.   The DL is performing very well, with no strong smells or areas of mud or excess poop.   Just a nice, spongy floor of leaves, hay and other woody matter underneath.  

Also raised a gate that's been needing raised to clear the thickening layer of DL, so that I could build the DL thicker by that gate, which gets the most traffic of all.  Got a couple of weeks of rain every day coming up and want to be ready for it.   I'm pretty satisfied with the results and now have plenty of room to build that thickness I so need there.  

Wish I could send some of that rain to the land down under, where they need it most.  

Let two sheep out on the land to browse in the nearby thicket, left two behind to insure they don't wander too far from the flock.    Will switch those pairs out tomorrow or the next day to let them all get some fresh soil under foot and some good browse to their diet.   

Fences can't be built too soon around here.


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## Baymule

Yesterday we raked out 2 huge loads of loose dead hay from the sheep barn and piled it in the Kawasaki mule. We raked up a couple of swales of wood chips from having the forestry mulcher in the horse pasture. There being bare dirt between them, we scattered the sheep hay over the bare dirt. That took most of the day. Then we dug out another piled high mule load of manure from the sheep barn/lot. What we dug out yesterday was outside the barn, where it got rained on, it was HARD packed! The mule is parked in the garden, ready to unload. It started drizzling, we were pooped out on shoveling poop, so we quit for the day. LOL 

We are going to shovel and scrape out the sheep barn and spread it on the garden. Then we have 2 other pens that have a small piece of the barn to pitchfork the loose hay out of, then dig out the poop and start over. I have tossed hay out in the pens also, so may pitchfork that into the mule too.  The dead hay piles up really fast. I take their reject hay and put it in tubs where they riffle though it and find more to eat, then I dump it on the floor of the barn. 

After we get the barn cleaned out, we'll be raking up leaves, piling in the mule and pushing them out in the barn/lot.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Yesterday we raked out 2 huge loads of loose dead hay from the sheep barn and piled it in the Kawasaki mule. We raked up a couple of swales of wood chips from having the forestry mulcher in the horse pasture. There being bare dirt between them, we scattered the sheep hay over the bare dirt. That took most of the day. Then we dug out another piled high mule load of manure from the sheep barn/lot. What we dug out yesterday was outside the barn, where it got rained on, it was HARD packed! The mule is parked in the garden, ready to unload. It started drizzling, we were pooped out on shoveling poop, so we quit for the day. LOL
> 
> We are going to shovel and scrape out the sheep barn and spread it on the garden. Then we have 2 other pens that have a small piece of the barn to pitchfork the loose hay out of, then dig out the poop and start over. I have tossed hay out in the pens also, so may pitchfork that into the mule too.  The dead hay piles up really fast. I take their reject hay and put it in tubs where they riffle though it and find more to eat, then I dump it on the floor of the barn.
> 
> After we get the barn cleaned out, we'll be raking up leaves, piling in the mule and pushing them out in the barn/lot.



That is going to be one worm laden garden!   Just think of all the nutrients soaking into the soils in all those places you've covered....should be worth all the work to see the green growth in the spring.  

Maybe you should take some before and after pics of those places, just to keep a record of what happened? I'm doing the same here, as well as vids of changes in the paddocks where hay is rolled out, before and afters on the silvopasture, etc.  

Always good to see where you started and how far you've come.


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## Baymule

We unloaded the mule in the garden this morning.







I took a picture of the lot that we shoveled out yesterday and didn’t realize it, but got a 3 generation picture! From right to left is Ewenique, due this month with twins, Domino, her daughter and Checkers, her two week old granddaughter. 





We cleaned out the sheep barn today. I have deep littered it since last fall. The top layer stays loose and dry with no smell. We started digging. The bottom layers were hard packed. I could see the layers of litter. I used pine shavings, hay, pine needles and leaves and more hay. We used pitchforks to loosen the hard pack and  load it on the mule. I raked the loose composted manure and BJ used a wide scoop shovel to load the mule. We dug out 6 loads today, the last one is still on the mule. We are tired! 

We spread this treasured stuff on the garden, it went quite a ways. 





We spread it in the tomato trellis. 





We spread it in the short tomato trellis too. 





Then we started on another part of the garden.  What is on the mule now and what is left to do in the barn should finish this section. 





We. Are. Whupped. 
We came in, took showers and collapsed. LOL


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## Beekissed

Just look at all that garden gold!!!!!    I know y'all will understand when I say if I were going to covet anything another woman had, it would be a manure pile like that one!   Serious poop envy over here.....

How cool is that mule?   Handy piece of equipment, as well as a tractor with a bucket.  I've always wanted one of those mini Cats....imagine how fun they would be to use to clean out barns and stalls? 





I love the generational pic, Bay.  I also notice your black sheep are black~instead of carpet brown~ and I have a theory about that....do you have copper in your mineral mix or good copper levels in your hay/grass?


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## Baymule

I have deep littered since we got sheep. It works for me and we always work it into the garden. The top layer stays loose and dry with no smell, the bottom layers compress and come up in flat chunks as you can see in the back of the mule. Since putting the hay bale under the barn, there is always plenty of waste hay to deep litter with. 

Sharp eye, Bee. I changed feed. I had been buying All Purpose pellets at TSC. I have fed my horses Martindale All Purpose 14% pellets for 20 years. I drove to a feed store an hour away when we lived in Livingston and now we drive to Sulphur Springs, an hour away. LOL I looked at Martindale Sheep and Goat feed and the copper level in it was the same as the horse feed. So I started giving it to the sheep. My black sheep always had brown hair. If you will look close at Ewenique, there are still a few tufts of brown hair. She looks the best I have ever seen her. In fact, the chickens always ran to eat the sheep feed, so I started feeding the Martindale All Purpose 14% to the chickens too. I recently gave them 16% layer pellets and the chickens didn't want it! LOL When we raise feeder pigs, I give it to them, it is $3 to $4 a bag cheaper. It doesn't have lysine in it, an essential pig nutrient, so I toss them boiled eggs. 



			http://martindalefeed.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/MFM-14-All-Purpose-Pellet.pdf


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## Beekissed

Tells you something, doesn't it?  That just that small amount of trace copper can yield such a difference in coat color is astounding to me....imagine what is also effected by being just a little copper deficient?  

It irritates me when they take copper out of sheep mineral mixes.


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## Sheepshape

Bay....that was a wonderful pile of 'scrapings' you had....big veg and lovely flowers guaranteed. Squashes, alliums (leeks and onions), potatoes and the like grow huge in my garden, all down to sheep 'output'.



Beekissed said:


> It irritates me when they take copper out of sheep mineral mixes.


Some copper is necessary for sheep, but too much over a prolonged period can lead to liver failure/haemolysis and sudden death. Some sheep are more sensitive to too much copper (e.g Texels and Suffolks) whilst others are less sensitive (e.g Scottish Blackface). Addition of large amounts of pig or poultry manure, feeding distiller's grain(copper stills), cattle minerals etc can cause toxicity pretty rapidly particularly in growing lambs in areas where water/land copper levels are quite high. Low copper levels in shop-bought fields makes sense.


Baymule said:


> I recently gave them 16% layer pellets and the chickens didn't want it! LOL


That must have been odd feed.....my chickens seem to eat just about anything. The sheep will eat layers pellets/crumbs and love poultry corn. They also wolf down the oatmeal porridge which I make for the chickens in the winter. My chickens are first into the feeding troughs when I'm giving the sheep concentrates near to lambing and some of the sheep head-butt them quite hard. Doesn't seem to deter them, though. Animals love junk food as much as their human owners.

Ah, the joys of animal ownership.


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## Beekissed

Sheepshape said:


> Some copper is necessary for sheep, but too much over a prolonged period can lead to liver failure/haemolysis and sudden death. Some sheep are more sensitive to too much copper (e.g Texels and Suffolks) whilst others are less sensitive (e.g Scottish Blackface). Addition of large amounts of pig or poultry manure, feeding distiller's grain(copper stills), cattle minerals etc can cause toxicity pretty rapidly particularly in growing lambs in areas where water/land copper levels are quite high. Low copper levels in shop-bought fields makes sense.



Yep....this I know.   But I'm not finding low copper mineral mixes for sheep in the stores....I'm finding NO copper mixes.   I've noticed that the minerals sold for sheep have none, zip, nada.   Turns black sheep brown in a short amount of time, which is just a weather gauge for the flock as to how copper deficient they are.  

I get around that by feeding kelp meal and salt as my mineral mix, but it's real pricey to feed compared to feed store minerals.


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## Sheepshape

Beekissed said:


> But I'm not finding low copper mineral mixes for sheep in the stores....I'm finding NO copper mixes.



Over in my part of the world, copper is present in small amount in most ewe feeds. Are the feed producers omitting it on the assumption that there's enough occurring naturally?  It's not that copper is an expensive additive.
Copper is needed by all animals in varying amounts for blood, hair, bone etc, it's just that sheep aren't good at excreting excess. 
Copper deficiency in sheep can lead to sway back in lambs and 'steel wool' fleece/depigmentation etc etc in adults., so getting the balance right is important. 
I go for ewe feeds with low or absent copper as our 'tap water' is sourced either from a bore hole or spring (we switch between the two) and a bathful of the stuff is slightly blue in colour (all alkathene piping) due to natural copper. We have had the water analysed and it is deemed to be perfectly safe to drink....though I cannot remember how much copper in ppm there was in it. The animals are supplied with the same water.. Nobody in the vicinity has developed copper poisoning to the best of my knowledge. That may be because some of the local farmers appear to drink only beer........ I'm not aware that their stock have been affected, either. However, we all tend to avoid feeds with much copper. 

Like all of these things...you can have too much of a good thing.


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## Beekissed

Sheepshape said:


> Over in my part of the world, copper is present in small amount in most ewe feeds. Are the feed producers omitting it on the assumption that there's enough occurring naturally?



I don't know about copper in sheep feed, as I don't feed any.   I'm just discussing sheep loose minerals.


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## Baymule

I bought Pat Coleby's books Natural Goat Care and Natural Sheep Care. In it she said to keep dolomite lime out for goats and sheep while pregnant and lactating. She said it also has the benefit of canceling out the overload of copper. I am paraphrasing here, don't remember her exact words. 

I feed a Purina Sheep Mineral, keep Dolomite lime out for the sheep and also I keep Azomite out for them, it is mineral from an ancient lava flow from Utah. They eat it all. I observed my first lambs eating dirt from a fresh gopher mound, so I offered them Azomite and they ate it like me eating chocolate. I had got the Azomite for the garden, so I was glad I had it around.


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## Baymule

I get dolomite lime in the garden section at Lowes.


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## Baymule

We worked yesterday and finished cleaning up the sheep barn. We took 10 mule loads out total piled high. There is one section of the garden that didn’t get any, so I’ll clean out chicken coops and spread that section with it. 

Today we let the ewes and lambs out in the yard to graze while we raked leaves. We put 10 mule loads in the barn, in some places it is 3’ deep. It won’t take them long to stomp them down. We quit at 1:00 for lunch. BJ is asleep in his recliner now. LOL


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## Beekissed

Wowza!!!  And this is only the middle of winter!   Imagine how much litter you'll have by spring?    I bet the sheep will LOVE the leaves.   Mine do....first they sort through to see if any tastes good, then they lounge on them.   

Should be able to plant dimes and grow dollars in that garden this year.       He deserves a nap after that!


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## Baymule

We just raked around the yard. We got a lot of trees here. We look at it as the sheep will make the compost for our garden. If they stomp this down pretty soon, we'll load up some more.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> We just raked around the yard. We got a lot of trees here. We look at it as the sheep will make the compost for our garden. If they stomp this down pretty soon, we'll load up some more.



That's how I see it too....why waste the leaves when we can recycle them through a paddock, barn or coop and make them useful to us in other ways?   It's sort of like wasting food by throwing it away when folks throw leaves away or don't utilize them as well as they could.    That's free bedding right there.


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## Sheepshape

A thought just went through my head (and not so many do these days). Over here bracken can be something of an invasive pest. Large parts of the local moorland were cut and baled a few summers ago and the bales were apparently used for animal bedding. Seems it was much used before straw became the norm.
The areas which had been cut have far less bracken now, too. Seems to me a 'return to the Old Ways' would be very beneficial.


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## WolfeMomma

wow! looks great Bay! 
I never thought about deep bedding sheep, It gets so wet here, especially in the spring their stalls are a disaster even over night. We have ours on rubber stalls mats then bedded with shavings that I pick out everyday. This is a really cool idea, I have done this with the chicken coop though!


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## Baymule

I took a picture of Lady Baa Baa belly deep in leaves. I deep littered the chickens for years. When we got sheep I deep littered them too. Never thought about starting a thread about it, glad that Bee did!


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## Beekissed

DL is perfect for wet conditions and is one reason I chose to use it, as most of my sheep pen has no shelter.  AND the rain runs right down into that area, as it's at the bottom of a slope with a nice little funneling gully to aid with the runoff....right into the pens.  

I put directional diversion for the bulk of the runoff but mostly that area generally stays pretty wet all winter long, even when sheep are not there.  

Now, even though the bedding stays wet beneath, on dry days the top dries out pretty quickly as the moisture is wicked towards the bottom.   This area also drains better now because worms are coming up from below to feed on the manure and litter material and those tunnels helps the ground absorb the rain.  

Even on wet days, the DL is spongy and springy to walk on, so the hooves are not immersed in wet mud all the time but are bouncing along on the top of the mass.   A few minutes of fork work now and again redistributes dry matter from under the shelters to wetter, more high traffic areas out in the open.   I'm finding my sheep are not lounging in the dry hay under the shelters where you would expect to find them on a cushy bed of hay....instead they are lounging outside on the leaves in the pen unless it's pouring down the rain.  

I credit the groundwork of sticks, stalks, vines, etc. for keeping air spaces under the DL and then the addition of leaves for creating even more air spaces in the mass, along with the hay fibers.   Without one or the other in place, neither one seems to work well on its own.   Without those air spaces it all would turn into an anaerobic mat and not compost at all but just sit and be slimy or cake into bricks.  

When I get it thick enough, I'm going to measure internal temps on the DL to see if the composting is generating any level of heat.   I know the chicken coop is, as per usual, but it's a more enclosed space.


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## Baymule

Coolbreeze89 said:


> THANK YOU for the DL info.  All my oaks finally shed their leaves, and the wind blew piles up against my fencing.  I’ve been wheelbarrowing them into my goat “barn”, and I’ve had zero smell issues ever since!!  I mix in the dropped hay as well as some sticks, etc to keep the texture varied as you suggested. I’m so pleased. Thanks for this fabulous thread!


How is your deep litter progressing?


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## Coolbreeze89

Baymule said:


> How is your deep litter progressing?



It’s still going well, thanks.  I’m wishing I would have put even more leaves, as they’ve already trampled the 18”or so down.  The pigs/chickens go in periodically to clean up wasted hay/feed and they aerate a bit. I’ll probably add some pine shavings if/when a smell starts to creep back in.  It’s been so wet lately that it’s hard to get a sense of how soon it will need it.  I’ve temporarily got my girls spending the night in a shelter closer to my house: it has power to run my “baby monitors” as I await kidding (and heat capability for the babies, if needed).  They’ll all go back to their usual shelter with the DL once everyone has safely kidded.  I’m already seeing the difference: the temp shelter has hay down for bedding.  Even with me spot-picking poop, it’s already got more of a smell than their DL did after a month.


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## Beekissed

Took advantage of a pretty day to move some DL around to even out the moisture, cap off any places that were too moist and move moist bedding to dry areas.  

Mom added some sticks picked up out of the yard, which will be trampled into the DL and layers of material added on top of them, to create good air spaces in there.  

The ducks helped sort out the wet material for me....not sure what they were eating in there but it seemed pretty tasty, they worked over those areas GOOD.   









After the next rain I'll put a layer of leaves over this area and so it goes....sticks, leaves, hay, rinse, repeat.   

All the black spots are where the ducks are billing through the DL, uncovering tasty things and opening up those areas to the air....all good for the DL.   What's amazing is that it barely got into the low 30s today after being 9* through the night, so that DL should have been frozen.... if it weren't creating a warmer layer of composting materials under there.   It's most definitely generating some level of heat, even in areas like in the pic, where the DL is only around 6 in. deep.


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## Baymule

We got a total of 6 inches of rain over the last week and a half. Today on the news it was announced that we are still in drought mode. We haven't had rain like that since last spring! Part of the sheep lot is not covered by the barn roof and it has got a little sloppy. I just tossed down more waste hay, the sheep will stomp it in and I'll toss in some more leaves. This stuff is gold in the garden and in the pastures where we are trying to get grass started.


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## Coolbreeze89

Ok, I need insight. 5 of 7 does have kidded, so I have 15 goats living in the area without DL.  I’ve been using a layer of compressed pine pellets under pine shavings (no more leaves).  The smell of urine is strong after just a week, even with trying to spot-clean.  I know they’re pretty condensed, but 8 of the 15 are babies. They have a nice big run, but with a lot of rain recently, they huddle in their 10x20 shelter more than just at night. I’ve tried sweet pdz on the wet spots, but haven’t noted much difference.  Once I work through the goat-only food, I’m going to let the goats and 3 lambs intermingle 24/7 and they can have, combined, (2) 10x20 shelters to spread out the stink!

 I’ve been cleaning it out every week trying to combat the ammonia smell to avoid lung issues. Just putting clean bedding on top only hid the smell a day or two.  What am I missing? This is getting expensive!


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## Baymule

Is it well ventilated? I have a 20’x24’ barn. Two sides are wide open. I have 10 ewes and 10 lambs, there is no stink. Their round bale is under the barn too so I have a steady supply of waste hay.


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## Coolbreeze89

Baymule said:


> Is it well ventilated? I have a 20’x24’ barn. Two sides are wide open. I have 10 ewes and 10 lambs, there is no stink. Their round bale is under the barn too so I have a steady supply of waste hay.


Not really - with our “frigid” lows in the 30s, I’ve kept it relatively closed up due to the 1 month old babies. I throw everything open during the day though.  Their hay feeder is in the shelter, so they have that “extra” bedding added continuously, too.


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## Beekissed

Coolbreeze89 said:


> Ok, I need insight. 5 of 7 does have kidded, so I have 15 goats living in the area without DL.  I’ve been using a layer of compressed pine pellets under pine shavings (no more leaves).  The smell of urine is strong after just a week, even with trying to spot-clean.  I know they’re pretty condensed, but 8 of the 15 are babies. They have a nice big run, but with a lot of rain recently, they huddle in their 10x20 shelter more than just at night. I’ve tried sweet pdz on the wet spots, but haven’t noted much difference.  Once I work through the goat-only food, I’m going to let the goats and 3 lambs intermingle 24/7 and they can have, combined, (2) 10x20 shelters to spread out the stink!
> 
> I’ve been cleaning it out every week trying to combat the ammonia smell to avoid lung issues. Just putting clean bedding on top only hid the smell a day or two.  What am I missing? This is getting expensive!



It's the density and particle size of your carbon you are using that is the issue.  Pine shavings and pellets have a very slow compost time and produce a lot of ammonia on their own as they compost, let alone adding the urine to it.    That mass can't breathe due to the particle sizes not letting in any air.   Got to get some larger, woody things in there to introduce air into the layers....sticks, twigs, woody weed stalks, vines, straw in moderation, etc.   In the absence of that, you may have to aerate that mass manually with whatever you have....tractor, skidder, chickens, pitchfork, etc.  

Another thing is ventilation.   Everyone feels they have great ventilation but mostly in the winter months people are trying to keep animals warm, so they don't want air to flow through the structure....but it just has to in order to move the humidity and gas up and out of there.   Passive airflow is key, with good air in the bottom and bad air out at the top or sides.   Animals get more sick from stagnant, moist barn conditions in the winter months than they do from drafts of fresh air.  

There are two kinds of DL~one is a huge diaper that soaks up poop and pee until it stinks so bad it has to be cleaned out and one is a working, breathing and living thing that absorbs excess moisture, digests poop pellets as they fall into the carbonaceous materials, and are turned into composted material as they bind with the carbon.  

I know that's all harder to do in larger barns and spaces unless you have access to and have stored plenty of various bedding materials with varying particle sizes and density....sort of what Salatin does with his barn.   If you garden or know someone who does and grows quite a bit of corn, squash and pumpkins, all those stalks and vines are wonderful to put down in the base of the DL at the end of summer so you can build your layers on top of it.   They let air into the bottom of the mass.   Ramial wood chips are another good thing to store for mixing things up a bit...they have various sizes and density, so layering them in with spent hay, straw or corn stalks and shucks are helpful as well.  Everything in moderation, in good measure and balance with one another.   

It's a process, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to go back to the dirty diaper.


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## Coolbreeze89

Beekissed said:


> It's the density and particle size of your carbon you are using that is the issue.  Pine shavings and pellets have a very slow compost time and produce a lot of ammonia on their own as they compost, let alone adding the urine to it.    That mass can't breathe due to the particle sizes not letting in any air.   Got to get some larger, woody things in there to introduce air into the layers....sticks, twigs, woody weed stalks, vines, straw in moderation, etc.   In the absence of that, you may have to aerate that mass manually with whatever you have....tractor, skidder, chickens, pitchfork, etc.
> 
> Another thing is ventilation.   Everyone feels they have great ventilation but mostly in the winter months people are trying to keep animals warm, so they don't want air to flow through the structure....but it just has to in order to move the humidity and gas up and out of there.   Passive airflow is key, with good air in the bottom and bad air out at the top or sides.   Animals get more sick from stagnant, moist barn conditions in the winter months than they do from drafts of fresh air.
> 
> There are two kinds of DL~one is a huge diaper that soaks up poop and pee until it stinks so bad it has to be cleaned out and one is a working, breathing and living thing that absorbs excess moisture, digests poop pellets as they fall into the carbonaceous materials, and are turned into composted material as they bind with the carbon.
> 
> I know that's all harder to do in larger barns and spaces unless you have access to and have stored plenty of various bedding materials with varying particle sizes and density....sort of what Salatin does with his barn.   If you garden or know someone who does and grows quite a bit of corn, squash and pumpkins, all those stalks and vines are wonderful to put down in the base of the DL at the end of summer so you can build your layers on top of it.   They let air into the bottom of the mass.   Ramial wood chips are another good thing to store for mixing things up a bit...they have various sizes and density, so layering them in with spent hay, straw or corn stalks and shucks are helpful as well.  Everything in moderation, in good measure and balance with one another.
> 
> It's a process, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never want to go back to the dirty diaper.



ok, this helps. So much of what you said is exactly what I’m doing “wrong”. In the original goat barn, I had great DL going with leaves, wasted hay, little bit of pine shavings, and twigs. I was out of all the goodies by the time I moved everyone to the “baby barn” so I just used the bagged pine stuff. I can definitely add in a bunch of smaller branches, because I cut Yaupon for my goats almost every day. I’ll make it a point to add in those smaller branches to the base to aerate. I’ll search around for more leaves and other stuff I can mix in (I have leaves left, but they’re out where the deer are adding their poo! I don’t want to add in their parasites). I’ll also quit babying everyone...  I have two does who are definitely pregnant but I have no idea about dates...so I’m keeping everyone in the area where I have the birthing pens with lights/heat available, and with things fairly tightly closed up (there are two areas for venting at ground level that the goats come and go through, but I’ll make bigger).  There’s been a lot of condensation inside in the mornings, so I suppose that’s further proof I have inadequate ventilation.

Thanks a lot!!!


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## Baymule

We spread waste hay on future pasture today. Some of it was quite wet underneath from the 7 1/2" of rain over the last two weeks. Part of the sheep lot is not under the roof and rain blows in under the roof in a few places. In the barn, there was no smell. In the lot where it was a little soggy, there wasn't any smell. Your nose will tell you if you are doing this right or not! LOL


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## Coolbreeze89

Well, my barn is already smelling better!  I managed to rake up enough wheelbarrows’ worth of leaves (and lots of small twigs!) to completely cover the barn floor. I then pitchforked the whole mess to mix in the shavings/pellets, waste hay, and the leaves/twigs. Now, 48 hrs later, zero smell even after a day of near-full confinement due to rain!  I’m aerating a bit with the pitchfork every couple days since I still have pine stuff mixed in, but it’s just a precaution, not due to outright smell. 

Thanks to you all!!!


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## Coolbreeze89

Quick clarification: now that I have my nice heterogeneous bedding, do I still “flip it” to manually aerate? It didn’t smell at all, til I mixed things around. Should I just leave it be? I was mixing just a bit each day, but then had newborn twins I was about worried about and skipped a couple days. I don’t let my chickens or pigs in that area yet due to my newborn kids.


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## Beekissed

Coolbreeze89 said:


> Quick clarification: now that I have my nice heterogeneous bedding, do I still “flip it” to manually aerate? It didn’t smell at all, til I mixed things around. Should I just leave it be? I was mixing just a bit each day, but then had newborn twins I was about worried about and skipped a couple days. I don’t let my chickens or pigs in that area yet due to my newborn kids.



I don't flip mine as I have aeration into the bottom layers.  I just toss dry stuff onto wetter areas, capping off the moisture and ammonia into the mass.   Do the same in the coop....each morning I toss dry leaves on top of the poop dropped under the roosts at night, which caps the moisture and smell under the top layer and allows any bugs in there to ascend to eat the poop without being detected by sharp eyes.   

If you do choose to do some flipping to get overly moist areas some air, just toss some dry stuff on top of the stuff you turned over to cap the smells under there.  

With the sheep pen I go in about once a week and redistribute the bedding.  When I can't find any dry bedding to cap the more moist areas with, I add new, fresh bedding.   I like to keep things dry on top, moist in the middle where sleep and walk the most.


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## thethinkingweasel

I'm curious about this, because we've been trying to do deep litter with our sheep in pretty much the same way we do with our chickens. We bring our sheep into the barn at night in their own stall (this year we have 7 sheep). We use mostly pine shavings, though you're inspiring me to try lots of other things in there too. Unlike the chicken litter, which stays loose and dry and basically turns into dust, the sheep litter has stayed pretty moist and quickly becomes packed and dense. When I turn it over with a pitchfork it looks like mud and often has a smell. Are we doing it wrong? 

I throw scratch grain in the sheep stall pretty much every day to encourage the chickens to scratch through it, but they can't seem to get below the top layer. Whenever I turn it over, they're all over it, but then it just packs down again in the next day or two. Is this what you're talking about when you say you're composting it? Do you let it stay moist and packed, or are you adding enough carbonaceous material to keep it loose? I feel like it would take a bag of shavings/leaves every day to accomplish that with what we have going on.

Any advice for this newbie??


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## thethinkingweasel

P.S. We have dirt directly under the litter. We used to have stall mats over the dirt floor, but we took them out at the beginning of this experiment.


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## Coolbreeze89

thethinkingweasel said:


> P.S. We have dirt directly under the litter. We used to have stall mats over the dirt floor, but we took them out at the beginning of this experiment.



There is a more in-depth explanation in an earlier post, but I think the key is to add varied, non-pine material. I was using compressed pine pellets and shavings and the smell was strong, even adding more each day ($$!).  I raked up multiple wheelbarrows’ worth of dried leaves along with small sticks and mixed this into the pine. The difference is insane! I do not mix it up, as that just makes it smell. I sprinkle on more shavings maybe once a week? And just a light layer, not bags at a time.  Next year, I’m stockpiling all my fallen leaves!  I am a true believer in this method!


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## Beekissed

thethinkingweasel said:


> We use mostly pine shavings, though you're inspiring me to try lots of other things in there too. Unlike the chicken litter, which stays loose and dry and basically turns into dust, the sheep litter has stayed pretty moist and quickly becomes packed and dense. When I turn it over with a pitchfork it looks like mud and often has a smell. Are we doing it wrong?
> 
> I throw scratch grain in the sheep stall pretty much every day to encourage the chickens to scratch through it, but they can't seem to get below the top layer. Whenever I turn it over, they're all over it, but then it just packs down again in the next day or two. Is this what you're talking about when you say you're composting it? Do you let it stay moist and packed, or are you adding enough carbonaceous material to keep it loose? I feel like it would take a bag of shavings/leaves every day to accomplish that with what we have going on.
> 
> Any advice for this newbie??



As mentioned before, one has to create air spaces in the mass with the use of different particle sizes and density, so having the pine shavings make up the bulk of the mix is always going to produce a sodden, packed down mass that smells highly of ammonia.  

The chickens can't move it, as you've found, so they can't really help.  The packing down is not composting....it takes a long time for pine shavings to break down and they don't bind well to sheep pellets, so you'd have to move all that out to a pile and let it sit for a year or so to get it to compost completely.   

I have 4 sheep in a pretty confined space, as far as space goes, but it's not a barn....one side has a cattle panel hoop shelter and the other is part of a lean to that is open to air on all sides, so I have excellent ventilation.   That added ventilation helps with the moisture and smells a lot, but it also helps that I started building this mass way back in the fall when I cleaned out the garden, when I added big vines, corn stalks, branches, woody flower stems.   As I built onto the layers, I added large pieces of bark, branches, leaves, hay, etc.   

For what you have right now if you can throw some small branches down on top of all of that, then layer in leaves, wasted hay, wood chips(not shavings....bark, twigs, chipped branches, etc.), and anything else that will break down but still create spaces in the mass for air.  I'd not try to stir it, but rather cap the moist areas with dry material.   That's what I do the most.   If I have areas that are overly moist and I have a windy day, I'll turn those  moist areas up to the sun and wind for a bit, but since we are in the middle of rain, rain and more rain, I just throw dry material onto the wetter areas and just keep things evenly moist with a layer of dry on top.   

If you can cap the moisture and poop, you can cap the smells, while also giving the sheep cleaner footing and dry places to rest.  If you don't have a lot of air moving through, I'd make sure you do, with good air coming in at the bottom and stale air moving through and out the top...that will help a good deal on keeping things from being overly humid in there.  

Next year, see if you can contact some folks you trust who rake up all their leaves and bag them so you can get you some free bedding that didn't cost you anything but picking it up.   Don't even have to do the work.   There have been years I've picked up over 250 bags of leaves in a season, but you need a place to store them out of the weather and that gets difficult.


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## thethinkingweasel

Thank you! Yes, the pine shavings are so expensive!! After posting I realized there were 11 pages' worth of posts, so I did go back and read through all of them. We will be trying lots of sticks and leaves and such very soon! 
So do you think I should clean out the muck that's in there currently before we start layering more stuff on top? Or will the lower layers compost effectively underneath?


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## thethinkingweasel

Never mind, I see your response above! Thanks for all the helpful advice! I'm excited to try something that actually works!


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## Beekissed

It does work, it just takes a change of thinking, away from the traditional way of doing bedding.   We were putting large slabs of bark down in the high traffic areas today, forking out overly damp material by a gate and replacing it with wood chips/bark from our splitting area.   Spread all that overly damp stuff out in the sunshine and put a light layer of wasted hay on top of it.    Covered all poop piles with dry stuff from other places and now it's all evenly dry, covered and smelling nice, even in the 70* day we got.  

Let the sheep out of the pen for the second time only since Nov.  Let them eat some of the new grass(very short, so not much of it there) and gave them some hay to balance it, which they sampled well until it was nearly gone.  Loved seeing them eat grass for awhile, then come back to the hay, then grass, and hay again, etc.   Smart sheep.  Means I won't have sheep with a bellyache tonight.   Put them back in the pen after 4-5 hours out on the grass, but it was sad to have to do so.   Can't WAIT to get the fencing done.  

Took pics of the DL in the pens today and other days, just haven't downloaded them yet...will post them when I do so.


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## Beekissed

Thus far, with the tons of rain we got this winter, I'm pretty pleased with the nature of the DL and have been all winter long....it's kept the girls from moving around in the mud and kept the smells, the poop and pee all under wraps.


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## Baymule

I rotate my sheep from the barn to the lush spring grass. I started out with 1 hour, then slowly increased it to 3-4 hours. They yell at me to go out on the fresh grass. LOL LOL I make them eat hay first, and put out baking soda for them to avoid bloat. 

We have mined the sheep barn for the garden and tilled in the manure compost. We have mined the dead sheep hay to spread on the new dirt where I will soon plant bahia grass seed. I have mined one of the chicken coops to spread the compost on a pasture. Deep litter is a valuable resource!


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> I rotate my sheep from the barn to the lush spring grass. I started out with 1 hour, then slowly increased it to 3-4 hours. They yell at me to go out on the fresh grass. LOL LOL I make them eat hay first, and put out baking soda for them to avoid bloat.
> 
> We have mined the sheep barn for the garden and tilled in the manure compost. We have mined the dead sheep hay to spread on the new dirt where I will soon plant bahia grass seed. I have mined one of the chicken coops to spread the compost on a pasture. Deep litter is a valuable resource!



It sure is!   That's one reason I can't wait to get the girls out on pasture full time....I want all that valuable litter that's been composting all winter long for the raised beds in my garden and for bare spots in the yard, for around the apple trees, etc.  

Now more than ever folks need a more sustainable routine for farming that doesn't rely so very much on outside resources and deep litter is one of those things....take something free and unwanted by others and turn it into food for all.  It's a good solution for an ongoing problem of hygiene on the farm.  

Hopefully, this will be the last year I need to build deep litter in a shelter for sheep, as they will be spreading the goodness on each section of paddock as I move them all winter long....each year that will lead to more and more grass, to be stockpiled for winter grazing.   Deep litter benefits without my actually having to build and tend to deep litter....it's a win/win!


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## Baymule

People in towns and cities should be allowed to keep hens for their eggs and manure. It would encourage people to raise gardens for fresh vegetables.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> People in towns and cities should be allowed to keep hens for their eggs and manure. It would encourage people to raise gardens for fresh vegetables.



In towns, maybe....in cities, no.  And that's if those towns have good ordinances set up to prevent abuse of the situation.   I can see a whole lot of problems with town and city folk trying to raise an animal they know nothing about, won't house or contain properly or in healthy conditions, and then can see the shelters overrun with a problem they can't handle.   It's already happening in many places....animal control out to capture feral chickens, having to remove those in abusive conditions, noise complaints, not being able to cull your flock for food due to neighbor complaints of cruelty, etc.    

Living in a town or city comes with certain luxuries that rural folks don't have and vice versa....there's a trade off for both places, but trying to have your cake and eat it too rarely pays off the way you expect it will.  When rural areas get urban advantages, the city moves out to the farm and pretty soon you can't farm any longer....too much zoning and complaints.  When cities get the right to farm, then pretty soon you have folks who live in the city for a reason complaining about the noise and smell of farm animals, the cruelty of eating said farm animals, etc.  Can't even keep honeybees in most towns and cities now due to complaining city folks.   They like their stinging insects to be out in the country.    

That's why God made farmer's markets, so city folks could trade for goods they can't grow and farmers can make money they can't make unless they move to the city and get a city job.


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## Baymule

There was a push for chickens in Houston some years back, called Hens for Houston. To my recollection, it was successful for hens only. There were stipulations, but people could keep a few hens for eggs. There needs to be more of that.


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## Beekissed

The chickens really worked up one of the winter pens these past few days....looks completely different in there.   I can pick up handfuls of that DL and put it right up to my face and not smell anything but a dirt smell....and those sheep have been in there since November.   It's all fine and fluffy in that area now.  

I can't WAIT to spread all this DL into raised beds, out on pasture bare spots, flower beds and such.   Once I get that whole winter pen cleaned out and dismantled, I'll throw a little clover seed in there to mix with whatever seed was already in that hay and let it all grow back to grass.  Should be a nice stand of grass in that area.


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## YourRabbitGirl

Beekissed said:


> ....anyone doing it?
> 
> _Now, by deep litter I'm referring to a composting type of litter, not merely deep bedding that gets cleaned out in the spring and piled up to compost.  I know a lot of folks use deep bedding in the barns for wintering livestock and that's not exactly what I'm wanting to do.  That's a pain to clean out and try to keep dry...I have no desire to work that hard. _
> 
> I've been using a composting deep litter in my coops for some many years now with huge success...keeps the coop smelling fresh, no flies, added warmth in the winter months and keeps the coop drier in the rainy and winter months, even though I have established a rain barrel to catch moisture and ADD it to the bedding under the roosts.  I don't clean it out every year, though I do remove some of the well composted material in my "sink" or "mass" under the roosts to side dress garden plants.   By then it's composted down to a fine powder or fine particles that is lightweight, easily moved and spread...sort of like Salatin's deep manure pack for his cattle, which he works into a fine and composted mass with the use of pigs.
> 
> I'd like to try something similar for the sheep to get a jump on the muddy seasons and how that all works in the pens.   Each year I collect many, many bags of leaves to use in my coops, so will be utilizing leaves in the sheep pens as well.  Right now I'm cleaning out the garden and a lot of the items from that will be placed in both coop and sheep pens.  Twigs, bark, pine cones, weeds, vines, corn stalks, shucks, cobs and such will be added as the season goes along.
> 
> Since the sheep pens are much larger than my coop, I'll really have to be on top of scrounging enough material to layer in there, as well as adding a good mix of stuff that will create the right air spaces in the mass.


Optimization of farm nutrient balance is important, especially in organic production, but knowledge of plant nutrient content and loss of nitrogen in deep litter manure from sheep is scarce.


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## Kusanar

I'm going to try this with horses hopefully starting this winter. 

I have a big open shed we just built, just need to get fencing done so the horses can get to it. I'm going to try to get a chipdrop delivery and heavily mulch it in with the chips, they will stand under there and poop and pee in the chips as well as trashing some hay into it. I will fork it over a little as needed. The entire place is on a slope so it will be almost impossible to keep water from running into the shed, so I would like to build up the deep litter to the point that they step up onto mostly dry footing when they enter the shed. 

No worries about ventilation, it's a polebarn with no walls, just a roof to keep the rain off (they have spent the last few years without even having that so they won't have a problem with the wind as long as they can stay dry when it rains in winter. 

Next year I can start cutting random weeds and stuff and adding that into it as well.


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## whinneysfarm

I am so excited to find this thread, I really want to use a true deep litter system for my goats' next dry lot location but I haven't seen many people doing it. Do any posters here have updates on how your deep litter system is going? 

One concern I've had is fencing/siding - as the deep litter piles up, the barn sides and pen fence becomes "shorter". I've been building up the deep litter in my chicken run and I just started hitting my head on the roof because I didn't account enough ceiling height for the floor becoming a foot higher! Besides making the barn/fence taller, I'm wondering if the moisture from the deep litter will rot wood siding or rust out metal fence. I'll be building a new permanent dry lot for my goats, chickens, and future sheep to share and I'm trying to think long-term for a barn/fence setup. I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this!


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## Baymule

I’ve moved twice, have a cow panel lot with little Quonset huts for shelter. It’s getting cold so I’m throwing hay in the huts for the sheep and dogs. Previously I put down hay and just kept adding to it through the winter. It got cleaned out in the spring. Makes great garden fertilizer.


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## Mini Horses

That's the key....deep litter MUST be cleared out on occasion and restarted.  As @Baymule  has said, great for garden!   Think a compost pile another has attended for you. 😃 Fertilizer is expensive ... This is a byproduct, already paid for.   If you don't garden, spread it on a lawn...sell to a gardener, etc.

I have goats and chickens.  Goat pellets can be used right away, like rabbit pellets.  Chicken manure can be hot, so composted is safest for plants or it can burn them, 🙂 as you probably know.

Yep, heads can get bumped if we don't do clean out.  Its a job!! I'm planning to lightly till in my goat barn, to shovel out and start over!!!   Cool enough this time of yr but, too cold this wk.  I'm seeing several front end loaders full.  Awesome garden 2023! 👍


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## whinneysfarm

Oh definitely, I look forward to harvesting the wonderful compost under the deep litter! But before it's ready there is still a good amount of litter built up, actively yet slowly breaking down. I'm sure the moist decomposing litter will affect wood/metal fencing over time so I'm thinking maybe lining the bottom of the barn/fence with metal siding would prove to be a good long-term protection option. I don't mind clean out/harvesting compost, but I do mind rebuilding barns and fences!


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## Mini Horses

Metal will rust, leave sharp edges.  Try heavy plastic or rubber  type material -- vinyl siding, vinyl flooring on side walls or along those lines?  To be honest, an extra layer of wood inside is easier to remove & replace.  It will protect the outer & frame.  Works here. 😃


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## whinneysfarm

Those are all great ideas, much better than metal! Even just an extra layer of wood would probably be much more economical... thank you!! I'm really looking forward to trying this out in the future.


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## Baymule

What about horse stall Matt’s, cut in strips? They are made for poop and pee.


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## whinneysfarm

I thought of those when rubber was mentioned. Heavy... but heavy duty for sure! I think they would attach to the wall pretty well. I am day dreaming about this setup as I painstakingly pick up each goat berry and add it to my growing compost pile.


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## Finnie

If you are still in the planning stage, my suggestion, which is what I hope to do someday, is to make the doorways to your deep litter area wide enough to fit a tractor in. I don’t know if I have another decade or two left in me for hand shoveling out the manure.

In my case, I only have poultry, so it’s all chicken coops or pens with regular size doors. They are not even wide enough to get my wheelbarrow through. That means every shovelful has to be carried to the doorway to dump into the wheelbarrow. Future coops and pens will be designed to fit a tractor with front loader, or at the very least, an ATV so I can skip the wheelbarrow.

I realize that with larger livestock folks have barns and corrals that are more accessible to equipment, but it’s still important to make sure you plan for whatever equipment you think you will be using. I’ve read lots of times in here where people wish they had put in wider gates to their pastures. The same idea goes for whatever buildings you put up. For instance, goats are pigs are short, so they don’t need a full height roof, right? But how short is the person shoveling out their manure?


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## Finnie

Oh, and one idea for preserving the wood of your buildings that you do deep litter in: On BYC, it’s popular to paint chicken coop floors and a foot or two up the walls with a product called Black Jack 57. I think this would be ideal to use in any deep litter area.


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## Baymule

Right you are @Finnie !  A high enough roof for a tractor to fit under, wide enough gates and wide enough doorways. If a tractor has a canopy, that can come off, but you still have to think about banging your head.


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## Finnie

Baymule said:


> Right you are @Finnie !  A high enough roof for a tractor to fit under, wide enough gates and wide enough doorways. If a tractor has a canopy, that can come off, but you still have to think about banging your head.


Yup, that’s my dream. 10 giant chicken coops in a row with huge honkin’ Tractor size doorways!


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## Baymule

Finnie said:


> Yup, that’s my dream. 10 giant chicken coops in a row with huge honkin’ Tractor size doorways!


Or just get a small Bobcat. Those are fun!


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## whinneysfarm

Great thinking!! I have been considering the extra wide entryways but I didn't think about tractor height. I'm definitely planning for the long term including old age, so convenience and ease are very important for the next builds. That's part of the reason I want to go with deep litter in the next dry lot, instead of everyday sweeping it will be a couple compost harvestings a year. Right now I sweep the poop, cart it over to the compost pile, then shovel out compost when ready - the deep litter helps take out a couple of those steps! The black jack is a great idea, I've seen that a lot on BYC and it seems to hold up great to moisture.


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## SageHill

whinneysfarm said:


> Great thinking!! I have been considering the extra wide entryways but I didn't think about tractor height. I'm definitely planning for the long term including old age, so convenience and ease are very important for the next builds. That's part of the reason I want to go with deep litter in the next dry lot, instead of everyday sweeping it will be a couple compost harvestings a year. Right now I sweep the poop, cart it over to the compost pile, then shovel out compost when ready - the deep litter helps take out a couple of those steps! The black jack is a great idea, I've seen that a lot on BYC and it seems to hold up great to moisture.


Tractor height VERY IMPORTANT !! When we designed our barn we made the aisle wide - 16ft. And the front door higher than the tractor with the roll bar up - now the hay guy can back in with his truck and unload.


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## farmerjan

This is why when they built barns long ago, the doors were "cavernous" ... for accommodating a huge wagon piled high with loose hay.  Granted, with the machinery of today, those barns with their huge hay lofts don't always work as well... but the doorways were made for anything to be able to get it in and out.  Plus, you were working with horses and you had to figure in maneuvering room.
One of the biggest mistakes people make when building things on the farm... NOT allowing enough room.  Gates need to be 16 ft unless it is just a small walk through gate from the yard... 10 ft seems big until you realize you have 4 inches on each side to squeeze a pickup through... 12 seems great until you have to make a bit of a turn on a corner and the truck and trailer just can't quite fit.  If you get into bad weather situations, especially muddy conditions... having a wider hole to go through allows for a little leeway if it gets slick and you slide.  
Also,  so it works great for a 12 ft gate now... and you get a tractor and bushhog... okay that works... then you can't do some of the work and you need to hire someone to come in to do something... most farmers that have any acreage nowadays, have bigger equipment.. and it won't fit in these 12 ft gates.  Shoot, my OLD ANTIQUE Farmall H with the side delivery rake has to be at the right angle to go through some of the 12 ft gates on one place we make hay...DS has to fold the discbine directly behind the tractor and ease his way through several gates on this place.... all because they built it to only accommodate their equipment at the time... a horse farm that they used a 6 ft bushhog to mow with.... nothing very big or wide....
But it is the one time that you need to get in there that you will be LITERALLY "up against it" and not be able to get a truck/trailer combination through... or the truck load of hay they are delivering....

As was stated also, thinking about height with tractors that have roll bars overtop...and something tall enough that you can stand up in it to be able to clean it out;  scoop it out with a front end loader.... or even like a chicken coop that you want to be able to at least walk upright in or a sheep shed that you can stand up in....just because they are only 3 ft high, doesn't mean that you are going to want to try to get in there to catch them or clean it out all bent over....


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## Baymule

Huge agreement n 16’ gates! And don’t forget swing room! Our driveway gate in Lindale was deep inset for truck and trailer room, in order to open and close the gate and not be out in the road. We had two 40’ culverts at the road for swing room-and we used it. 

Here, driveway is narrow, entrance is a hard 90 degree turn, no swing room, can’t get a long trailer in this place. It will have to be reset and reworked to more of a 45 degree angle and widen the entrance.


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## whinneysfarm

I'm loving this discussion on setting up the farm for success! I'm actually going to start a new thread so I can hear everyone's ideas on other important farm features, and so I don't derail this thread too much.

To get back to deep litter, I hope it's okay if I tag some of the experimenters I've seen on here!
@Beekissed
@Coolbreeze89
@thethinkingweasel
@Kusanar

How has your guys' deep litter been progressing these past couple years?


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## Baymule

Some of those are no longer on here or not here very often. Don’t want you to get discouraged by no response. 

I’m starting all over and will be taking this deep litter journey anew. I will definitely go with deep litter, I like low maintenance. Scooping poop daily is not on my list of things to do!


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## whinneysfarm

You are sweet for looking out, thank you! I was hoping a ping might awaken them from their deep slumber 😂

I'm so excited to follow your deep litter journey, please don't forget to share some details every now and then! I'm still some years away before I can start the process, so I will continue looking on in envy and learn from everyone else.


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## Baymule

whinneysfarm said:


> You are sweet for looking out, thank you! I was hoping a ping might awaken them from their deep slumber 😂
> 
> I'm so excited to follow your deep litter journey, please don't forget to share some details every now and then! I'm still some years away before I can start the process, so I will continue looking on in envy and learn from everyone else.


I was a member here for several years before we moved and I got sheep. I used that time to read past posts and study. Lots of information on the forums!


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## Finnie

whinneysfarm said:


> You are sweet for looking out, thank you! I was hoping a ping might awaken them from their deep slumber 😂
> 
> I'm so excited to follow your deep litter journey, please don't forget to share some details every now and then! I'm still some years away before I can start the process, so I will continue looking on in envy and learn from everyone else.


Me too.


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## Finnie

Baymule said:


> I was a member here for several years before we moved and I got sheep. I used that time to read past posts and study. Lots of information on the forums!


Again, me too.

We are planning to move to the actual country (as opposed to 4 acres in the middle of suburbia) when my husband retires in 5 or so years. I’m told I am not allowed to add any new species. We’ll see.


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## Baymule

Finnie said:


> Again, me too.
> 
> We are planning to move to the actual country (as opposed to 4 acres in the middle of suburbia) when my husband retires in 5 or so years. I’m told I am not allowed to add any new species. We’ll see.


Not allowed! Hahahaha!!!!! What makes him think you will ask? Hahahaha!!!


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## Finnie

Baymule said:


> Not allowed! Hahahaha!!!!! What makes him think you will ask? Hahahaha!!!


I have a history of not asking!!


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