# CL :(



## newbiekat (Jun 14, 2014)

Gingerbread... she's my goat I brought home and kidded that night with triplets. We have had her since the beginning of April... Well, two days ago I noticed a lump in her cheek, looked like she had a bunch of cud she was chewing on. Yesterday I noticed the lump was still there and she was not chewing. It felt hard, so DH and I decided to take her to the vet. Vet felt around, decided to do an ultrasound, said it was close to the surface, definitely an abscess, decided to pull some puss and put it under the scope. She said it was definitely CL (Caseous Lymphowhatever)... I asked if we should send bloodwork in to test, she said there was no need. Her suggestion was to cull. I don't know much about the disease other than EVERYONE is scared of it... The vet said you can drain it, and treat it, but she suggested to keep the goat isolated, and if the abscess burst all of the other goats can become exposed. We had good timing because the abscess was close to the surface (I'm guessing that means it was ready to burst soon)... So instead of isolating her (we dont really have the facilities for that), or pawning her off on some other poor soul, we decided to put her down. I plan on having the rest of the herd blood tested once I get my red top vials in the mail. I'm freaked out now. I feel like a terrible goat mommy. I allowed all my goats to become exposed to CL  

Was that the right choice? What is so scary about CL? Does that mean my herd may have it now? What about her babies? Is it transmitted through her milk? Or birth?


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## Farmin' Girl (Jun 14, 2014)

I don't have the answers to your questions, but I am sorry to hear you're having to experience this.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 15, 2014)

Depends on whether it really was CL and if it was whether it was internal or not.  The titer levels are important.

If not internal and it had not burst on the premises than the occurrence would be extremely rare.

It is good to get your herd tested anyway.
I would add CAE  and Johnnes to the CL testing.

So sorry for your loss. 

Here is a link of CL sites and also sites that are mistaken for CL
http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/96/#.U50wefldWt8


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## newbiekat (Jun 16, 2014)

Southern- Would the titer levels be visible under the scope in the puss the vet pulled? Or in the blood?



Southern by choice said:


> If not internal and it had not burst on the premises than the occurrence would be extremely rare.


OH GOOD! That's such a relief to hear that!!



Southern by choice said:


> Here is a link of CL sites and also sites that are mistaken for CL
> http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/96/#.U50wefldWt8



I actually looked at her site when we were figuring out what to do with Gingerbread. I thought the site of the abscess was on the cheek, not quite as high as near the ear, so I didnt think it was CL... But when the vet took the sample she said yes... This is a newer vet for us so I'm not so sure of her yet. Do you think she gave incorrect information?



Southern by choice said:


> It is good to get your herd tested anyway.
> I would add CAE  and Johnnes to the CL testing.



I have been looking online, but can't seem to find any answers. Would you happen to know where I can get all of that testing done? I would like to draw my own blood and send it in. Also, should I test all of my goats? Even the ones under a year? I've read somewhere that the CL test isn't as reliable in goats under 8 mos old.

Thank you!!


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## Southern by choice (Jun 16, 2014)

The titer levels are done through serum testing.
As far as your vet being able to determine under a scope, yes, it is possible to look at under a scope.  

As far as age... many say not before 6 months but 8 months is better.

In our state we use Rollins lab (North Carolina). Rollins does in-state testing for very little. $1.50 for CAE and $1.50 Johnnes, they do have to send out the CL to UC Davis (California). UC Davis charges us $14.50 as we are out of state. 

We submit one vial of 6cc's in a redtop tube and Rollins takes what they need and they overnight the rest to UC Davis, we do have to pay a $20 overnight fee. UC Davis bills us, as does Rollins. I like that Rollins does all the packing and shipping it out for us.

Whoever you use you will need to get specific instructions as to amount, kind of tube etc. For us we are an hour away from Rollins so we generally pull the blood and keep all the vials upright, refrigerated, and take them in that day or the next morning. We don't have a centrifuge. (I am looking for one though, reasonably priced ones are hard to find- easier to do HW checks on the dogs with the centrifuge)

Since you are in Kansas look up your state veterinary division and see what lab comes up. 

Just found these...

http://www.ksvdl.org/
http://www.ksvdl.org/submission-forms/
http://www.ksvdl.org/pdf/submission-forms/Sheep-Goat-Camelid-Submission-Form.pdf

There is a good deal of controversy when it comes to CL and CL testing and titer levels. That is for another time though. 
Please come back and let us know what you find out about testing, a great resource for others in your state looking for a place to test! 

A word about Johnnes- The Elisa test ( not direct fecal) is a sensitive test and you can get false positives or Susp (Suspect) easily so don't panic if that happens.
Suspect often means inconclusive- for whatever reason the test was not reasonably conclusive either way. Some things that can affect the results... pregnant goat, recently kidded, a goat on anti-biotics, or even use of de-wormer. 
I thought I'd share that because it does happen, usually they will ask you to submit another sample 3-6 weeks later. If you come up positive 2x then I would do a direct- fecal. It takes 4 months for the results. It is the most accurate method.
Vets often forget to tell their clients this and then there is that panic, stress, worry, fear etc.... all that could be eliminated if they just said from the beginning that there are factors that can throw the test.


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## newbiekat (Jun 17, 2014)

I am looking at the testing costs, and it seems here in Kansas it is a bit more expensive than NC to test for these things... It seems they are $11 for CAE, and Johnne's, and then 14.40 for CL (they send it out to Texas A&M).

They have several CAE tests it seems like, CAE Virus & Ovine Progressive Pneumonia (OPP)- cELISA, and CAE Virus- AGID. What's the difference? Do I need the OPP being it is an Ovine related disease?

For the Johnne's Disease, she asked me if I wanted the screen or titer. Remembering your comment, Southern, I mentioned the titer. She quoted me $14.40 (per animal) + $26.00 ($10 for processing per animal and one time $16 shipping fee), so total would be 24.40 per animal + a one time $16.00 shipping fee. Should I also be asking about a screen? Or does it matter? It is called the Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis (Johnne's Disease)- cELISA.

Thank you about the information about the false positives, that would definitely have freaked me out.

Also, do these prices seem normal? I've never had testing done so I'm not sure what they run. I'm looking at around $50 an animal for these tests... Is that normal? I feel like it's a lot.

ETA: She also mentioned serum separator tubes, I've found these on Amazon, would they work?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 17, 2014)

You may want to consider just sending them to Rollins.
Out of state fees are 2x what in state is. So that should be $3, $3, and the $14.50 for CL that they send to UC Davis.

They are also very helpful in answering questions and overall assistance. They can tell you exactly what tubes to use and how much serum they need. I would call them and simply ask them you want to have your X number of goats tested for CAE, Johnnes, CL... they will conect you with exactly who you need to speak with and walk you through the what's what.

Here is a link to their fees schedule
* look at pg 2 #8
I think it will end up costing you less in the end.

http://www.ncagr.gov/vet/ncvdl/FeeBrochure.pdf


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 17, 2014)

I've experienced a false positive with the Elisa for Johnnes, but our vet told us immediately it was most likely a false positive.
Rollins did a second test an "acid fast stain" test that is more accurate and it was negative.


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## newbiekat (Jun 17, 2014)

Southern- I think you're right, it may be cheaper that way. I wonder what FedEx charges would look like... Guess I'll have to make some calls tomorrow! Thank you!

OFA- What is the Acid Fast Stain? Is that also a blood test? Would it be best to request that one first instead of the Johnne's ELISA?


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 18, 2014)

The ELISA and Acid Fast Stain are just different lab procedures.  Both are done with blood samples.

*The Acid-Fast Stain*
Bacteria with an acid-fast cell wall (see Fig 1) when stained by the acid-fast procedure, resist decolorization with acid-alcohol and stain red, the color of the initial stain, carbol fuchsin. The genus _Mycobacterium_ and the genus_ Nocardia_ are acid-fast. All other bacteria will be decolorized and stain blue, the color of the counterstain methylene blue.

Fig 1.







The Elisa test is cheap. It's cheap because it is easier and you can run an entire tray with 100 samples at once. This acid fast stain is not I think they are $30 each.  Each one has to be done individually and has multiple step and is very time consuming.

I think the better approach is to do the Elisa and don't panic if you get a positive.  Do the more expensive test only then.

At first I was worried that if you get false positives then how accurate is the Elisa if negative ?  The lab said not to worry, that was not the case.  The ELISA (Enzyme Linked Immunosorbant Assay) also uses colors but to detect for antigens.  So, other things can cause the presences of antigens and that's why you can get false positives.


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## newbiekat (Jun 26, 2014)

Thank you so much for your helpful knowledge... I've talked to my vet who said the best (and cheapest) option would be to send everything to Washington... She still doesn't think the CL and Johnne's test are worth it because of the false negatives with the Johnne's, and the CL because if a positive comes back that means they have been "exposed" and she doesn't find it as necessary to cull until it becomes clinical (I.E. Gingerbread)... I told her I would like them all done regardless. Should I be looking for another vet?

Haven't gotten the tests done yet, but we plan to soon... Once finances allow...


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 26, 2014)

I don't think you necessarily should change vets.  She gave you her opinion.  But, you get to make the decision.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 26, 2014)

I posted this somewhere else but can't remember where... testing has it's limitations for sure but it is the best that is out there right now.
Titer levels are good to know when dealing with CL. It is a very difficult decision on so many levels. One of the vets at UC Davis had done a study on CL in sheep... when the sheep were examined (after euthanasia) 3% of the sheep with titers of 16(which is low and not usually associated with internal CL) had internal CL. No external indicators. It may have only been 3% BUT that is 3% had INTERNAL CL. Those 3% if kept long enough had the potential to infect an entire herd. 
  8 is considered negative
 16 anything from here up is considered positive
 32
 64
128 here up is considered to be consistent with Internal CL 
256

I agree with OFA. Out of our 3 vets they all have different opinions on CL, and testing in general. All 3 are great vets each with their own philosophy and strengths. It is up to you to look at the info, educate yourself as best you can and go with the decision that best benefits you and your farm. 
Like many things in life and dealing with your farm you may make one decision now and over time change that decision based on need or experience. 

Wish you well in your decision.


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## newbiekat (Jun 26, 2014)

Thank you very much for you input... Both of you...

Like I said earlier, I do plan on testing regardless of what the vet says, but how do I determine to cull? I know it's a personal choice, but I don't know much about either disease. The vet says CL is not dangerous unless the abscess bursts and it's nothing to be afraid of until it gets to that point, others say when they test positive they have to go. Same with Johnne's, vet says don't worry until its clinical. Is it just personal preference for determining when to cull?


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 26, 2014)

I do not know the answers to that.  Fortunately, all we've dealt with is the one false positive for Johnne's.  I recall our vet said that if she was truly positive we would want to have her put down.  I don't know what I would have ended up doing if it had turned out differently.

I've seen some posters on here indicate that they don't think that CL is that big a deal, it can be managed.  But, again I don't know what I would do.

Good luck.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 26, 2014)

I would be asking the vet what exactly they mean by clinical.
If the vet is suggesting that clinical is when there is a visible external lump then what would be the "clinical" signs of internal CL?

If you have Johnnes, showing positive through the actual fecal culture definitely cull but also now your land is exposed.
As far as CL test and find your results with titers... If you end up with one positive then I would cull that one, and continue testing yearly. Why risk a the whole herd because of one goat? If many test positive you could keep separate herds, a minimum of 5 ft between fencelines, practice bio-security and enjoy your goats.
There are many who keep CL positive goats with CL negative goats and don't worry about it.

Test first, then wait til you have a clear mind about your decision. 

I know of someone whose goat had a titer of 16 (considered positive) she kept the goat and has had the goat for years, no other goats have shown positive, and the titers never went up. That is why these decisions are so difficult. Why 3% with titers of 16 were internal but obviously not hers?


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## jodief100 (Jun 27, 2014)

We have some goats with CL.  The first ones I bought oh so many years ago had it and I didn't know any better.  By the time I realized what we had we had too much invested to start over. So I did tons of research and consulted with my vet.  We decided to immunize with Cas-Bac.  It is not labeled for goats due to abscess problems but studies did show it was 80% effective in preventing CL.  There is a vaccine labeled for goats available now, there wasn't at the time.  Nothing can cure it.  Vaccinating will give a positive test result if the goat has it or not. 

Now, many years later, we still have a few CL positive goats.  But the new cases are few and far between. 

We raise meat goats and the meat goat industry has a different take on CL than the dairy goat industry.  you need to do what is best for your herd and your family. 

I read that sheep are much more prone to internal abscesses than goats. Just FYI.


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