# Update on the Buck with dumb owner...**UPDATE**



## allanimals21 (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't know if you guys remeber the situation I was in with the one woman.  heres a link to the origina post...
http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=21754

Anyway....long story short....I ended up getting into it with her today.  I told her that I would send her a check for $200 for him and we could be done with this.  That way I saved him from her stupidity and hopefully save her 2 does from being bred back while they are still nursing thier kids from 5-6 weeks ago.  

I've had alot going on lately with some family health issues, work, school, and the animals.  Getting him back to her was least of my priorities.  With everything about his woman I know I had planned on buying him back anyway.  I just figured if I saved him and me the headache of having to deal with her the better.  I talked to her earlier this week about him.  I told her that I had put some money into him for vaccinating and deworming and what not.  She had told me when I picked him up she would cover that.  Well, when I told her I had dewormed him, I had given him ivermec cuz I thought I saw some crawlies.  So anyway instead of trying to explain that to her because she had got all defensive saying that her goats are healthy.  Nothing is wrong with him.  He doesn't have worms.  I explained to her as best I could that all goats have a wormload of some sort.  She was just amazed.  Then she didn't believe me that they get vaccinated.  So anyways I had told her on this day that I would talk to my fiance and let her know what we would offer her.  She said fine....that if she could get $200-$250 she would just deal with it.

Fast farward to today.  I told her today I would give her $200 because on our BS "contract" as she called it we agreed that if anything should happen to him I would pay $200.  Which is what we had both agreed he was worth.  She came unglued about how she paid $250 for him and how he was worth so much more because he had beautiful babies and he has long haired babies and he is built so well blah blah blah.  Funny thing is that she knows nothing about fainting goats (well goats in general).  She told me when I was first up there how she couldn't wait to get rid of him.  He stinks and blah blah.  Now because she thinks she can make all this money on them she wants to breed fainting goats.  Funny thing is kids are not even a year.  He's got 5 kids on the ground.  only 2 of which are purebred.  I owned them...I sold them.  She has 3 pygmy crosses out of him she cant even sell.

So anyhoo today I tell her that...she gets all mad about how she wants him back and how I should have put her ahead of all my other issues and this is all my fault....well I snapped and told her she doesn't know what shes doing and shouldn't be breeding...yea she didn't like hearing that.  Then I say you don't even know how to vaccinate or deworm...why would you breed?  I didn't even say anything about her goats....she snaps at me that her goats are just as good if not better than mine and she would line them up anyday...bring it on she tells me.  What a child.  I told her I will have a check in the mail monday.  She said if its not for $250 she's coming with the sherrif...what a moron..and she apparently is a no it all about how a good goat is conformed....she was talking like Nova is a buck from god.  He's decent.  Not spectacular.  anyway...thats my rant.  He is now safe with me...

Sorry I just had to get that out to other goat people...


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## ksalvagno (Nov 2, 2012)

Sorry you are going through that. Sounds like someone who shouldn't even own goats.


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## allanimals21 (Nov 2, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Sorry you are going through that. Sounds like someone who shouldn't even own goats.


Well like I said...at least I've got him now.  I will send her a check monday.  I still think I'm only gonna send $200.  See if she actually tries to show up with the sherriff.


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## SkyWarrior (Nov 2, 2012)

allanimals21 said:
			
		

> ksalvagno said:
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You're too honest.  I would've said "he got out and got hit by a car.  Here's $200."


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## Roll farms (Nov 3, 2012)

If you have a copy of the contract saying he's worth 200$, make a copy of the check for 200$ before you send it, and show both to the sheriff IF she's dumb enough to show up w/ him.  I think that'll pretty much make your point.


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## lilhill (Nov 3, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> If you have a copy of the contract saying he's worth 200$, make a copy of the check for 200$ before you send it, and show both to the sheriff IF she's dumb enough to show up w/ him.  I think that'll pretty much make your point.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 3, 2012)

Great idea Roll!  I don't like the whole lying thing, 2 wrongs don't ever make a right.  

In the end it is the other ladies goat, sad as that is, you do not want to end up accused of stealing. If she does not cash your check then she is not agreeing to your terms and by law you would be stealing if you do not then return the buck. 

She sounds rather unstable, sure I think we all care about the goat here but definitely protect yourself first.


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## allanimals21 (Nov 3, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Great idea Roll!  I don't like the whole lying thing, 2 wrongs don't ever make a right.
> 
> In the end it is the other ladies goat, sad as that is, you do not want to end up accused of stealing. If she does not cash your check then she is not agreeing to your terms and by law you would be stealing if you do not then return the buck.
> 
> She sounds rather unstable, sure I think we all care about the goat here but definitely protect yourself first.


She will cash the check because she's a money hungry idiot.   Technically according to his papers and the registry she doesn't even own him.  The person I sold him to still technically owns him.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 3, 2012)

The whole situation is sad. It does make me think about when I need to start selling kids though. I would rather a goat come back to me then just keep getting sold over and over again and one of our kids end up like this poor guy. I know it happens a lot with bucks, makes me so sad. I love bucks, really, really love them. Except for the stank during rut  ! I'm sure it really upset you!  I'm always a bit mixed on the matter.... I think when someone buys an animal it is theirs and they should be able to do what they want with it, at the same time I can't stand to see a buck that's gone through a new place every year.  I just want anyone who buys a kid from us to have us as their first option. I like to have enough bucks as to where those who have bought does from us can come back and have their girls bred instead of buying a buck for a season and out he goes, shipped off somewhere else.  

Ideas? 

BTW- went back to look at the buck,s pic.... LOVE his color!  Yes, I am a color nut!

I really hope this ends up working in your favor.


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## SkyWarrior (Nov 3, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> The whole situation is sad. It does make me think about when I need to start selling kids though. I would rather a goat come back to me then just keep getting sold over and over again and one of our kids end up like this poor guy. I know it happens a lot with bucks, makes me so sad. I love bucks, really, really love them. Except for the stank during rut  ! I'm sure it really upset you!  I'm always a bit mixed on the matter.... I think when someone buys an animal it is theirs and they should be able to do what they want with it, at the same time I can't stand to see a buck that's gone through a new place every year.  I just want anyone who buys a kid from us to have us as their first option. I like to have enough bucks as to where those who have bought does from us can come back and have their girls bred instead of buying a buck for a season and out he goes, shipped off somewhere else.
> 
> Ideas?
> 
> ...


Have that in your sales contract.  If they violate it, you could take them to court, but it may be more money and aggravation than it's worth.


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## Oakroot (Nov 3, 2012)

SkyWarrior said:
			
		

> Have that in your sales contract.  If they violate it, you could take them to court, but it may be more money and aggravation than it's worth.


In most states things like that are not enforceable in contract. You can put it in there and it can give you some leverage and something to threaten with but it often won't hold up in court.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 3, 2012)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> SkyWarrior said:
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No, that is so not me. I stay away from breeders of ANY kind of animals that have that much of a control issue. When I see breeders that have a long list of agreements for the buyer I just laugh and keep going! Breeders like that tend to be very arrogant, super controlling  and judge everything. "Only they know what their doing" and they tend to think everyone else is a moron. I've seen this with dogs, goats, chickens, and horses. I've seen breeders who dictate feed, vet care, even down to "if you move you must notify me and update your current info and your new vets info" ....WHAT?!?!?!? CRAZY!! That is one thing if you are in a co-ownership agreement.

I prefer to have good dialog and always an open line of communication. With my poultry I always encourage free-range, however that is not always an option for all of my customers. Although I hate to see penned chickens on dirt in a little 6x10 coop 24/7, and I don't think it produces the healthy eggs that most people are keeping chickens for in the first place. I do know the people I sell to will love them, spend time with them, give them excellent care and WILL call if they need any kind of help. Still don't like them penned but just because they keep their chickens differently than I do, doesn't make them incapable or bad chicken owners. Not being preachy just trying to give an example. 

The goat world seems quite different though, it is strange how many people buy goats on a whim. This is what worries me. I'd rather put a buck in the freezer than it go through home after home.


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## allanimals21 (Nov 3, 2012)

so I found my copy of the "contract".  All its says is "i (me) agree to $50 for use of breeding through Nov1st.   If anything happens to him I agree to pay for him $200.  Then I signed and she wrote "I agree to this" and signed.


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## ksalvagno (Nov 3, 2012)

Sounds like you have your answer.


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## allanimals21 (Nov 4, 2012)

So now she calls me today and leaves a message saying that she has been having a hard time finding another goat.  She doesn't understand why she should have to find another when she has him.  She told me she feels like I'm bullying her and she talked to a sherriff and is taking me to court if I don't bring him back my tuesday.  Or she will come get him but I have to pay her gas.  I doubt it.  There has to be something I can do to protect him and those 2 does from being bred back so soon.  I mean should be allowed to own an animal you can't touch?  If she can't touch him like she told me she couldnt(and she said she didn't the whole 4 months she had him) should she be allowed to own him?  How can you properly take care of an animal if you can't handle it?  His collar is a fine example. Plus she insisted that goats don't need vaccines or deworming.  That her goats are healthy. Any ideas?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 4, 2012)

So sorry about this situation! I know it stinks but you have a contract, legally you are obligated to return the buck. I know that is not what you want to hear and there is considerable emotion involved but from a legal standpoint this may end up VERY bad for you. 
I would also take pictures of the buck and have her sign a paper stating that the buck was returned in good health yada, yada, yada.


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## SkyWarrior (Nov 5, 2012)

You're asking advice here, and perhaps I'm going to give you bad advice.  Or advice you may not want to hear.  I'm not a lawyer and I have no legal counsel here.  There aren't laws to prevent stupid animal owners.  True neglect and inhumane treatment, yes, but not stupidity.

Almost every goat owner (except one) I've gotten goats from doesn't vaccinate or deworm.  Many of the goats I've gotten have never been handled, or hardly handled.  As deplorable as we may find the situation, you can't just take an animal without paying for it.  That's theft.  You can't possibly expect to win if the person sues you.  

As for breeding those does, you can't stop her from doing that.  Those are her animals.  She can do with them as she pleases.  He is her buck too, even if you had owned him at one time.  This is the way things work.  You sell an animal and you have no control over what that person does to the goat.  The person can sell the animal, butcher it for food, breed it to whatever, send it to auction, or do whatever is within the bounds of the law.  Goats are livestock and property.  

As I said earlier, I would've told her he had gotten out and hit by a car.  I'd pay her $200 and then that would've been that.  As it stands, she wants $250?  If I were going to follow this through, I'd pay her the $250 and get a signed bill of sale, and be done with her.  Consider the extra $50 to keep her out of your hair, and keep you from having to consult a lawyer, which is much more expensive.  If the amount is off the table, then consult a lawyer and find out what you can and can't do.  I suspect you'll probably be handing the buck back.

Of course, if he were wethered...  Nah....


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## allanimals21 (Nov 5, 2012)

SkyWarrior said:
			
		

> You're asking advice here, and perhaps I'm going to give you bad advice.  Or advice you may not want to hear.  I'm not a lawyer and I have no legal counsel here.  There aren't laws to prevent stupid animal owners.  True neglect and inhumane treatment, yes, but not stupidity.
> 
> Almost every goat owner (except one) I've gotten goats from doesn't vaccinate or deworm.  Many of the goats I've gotten have never been handled, or hardly handled.  As deplorable as we may find the situation, you can't just take an animal without paying for it.  That's theft.  You can't possibly expect to win if the person sues you.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to just take him.  I told her I would send her the money today....well then she goes all nuts again and threatens to take me to court.  She is just being ridiculous.  She wanted nothing to do with him until she thought she could make money on him.  She can't even sell the 3 kids she has out of him already.  I have no problem handing him back if she is going to treat him properly.  Its just frusterating this woman can make up her mind.  Like I said we had agreed upon $200 because I told her I would pay $150 for him + $50 for using him.  Now she knows everything about breeding since I've last talked to her and he is worth so much more apparently.


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## Pearce Pastures (Nov 5, 2012)

Sorry this went so badly for you.  Coming from a family with several lawyers, I know that she would prevail if it did go to court and you could end up with your name tarnished with other charges (sorry again because I know it feels so wrong that she could treat her animals that way).  If she will let you take him for another 50 bucks, you might want to part with your money if it will mean a peace about this for you.  Otherwise, it might be painful, but returning him to her and knowing you tried to do right by him is probably the safest course.


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## allanimals21 (Nov 5, 2012)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> Sorry this went so badly for you.  Coming from a family with several lawyers, I know that she would prevail if it did go to court and you could end up with your name tarnished with other charges (sorry again because I know it feels so wrong that she could treat her animals that way).  If she will let you take him for another 50 bucks, you might want to part with your money if it will mean a peace about this for you.  Otherwise, it might be painful, but returning him to her and knowing you tried to do right by him is probably the safest course.


I have no problem paying the $250  the problem now is after our agreement on the phone the other day she has since called me and said she will take me to court.


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## BrownSheep (Nov 5, 2012)

If I were you I would a) give her back the buck but call the ASPCA and inform them of how inept she has been. I would also cut all ties. I thought this lady sounded looney when you post about the original breeding deal. She sounds like a me me me sort of person. If you can I would also consult a lawyer briefly. That breeding contract probably won't be much help in court. You purchased after you returned him to her correct?

This is such a sucky situation.


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## Catahoula (Nov 5, 2012)

SkyWarrior said:
			
		

> Of course, if he were wethered...  Nah....


You always crack me up with your 'brilliant' ideas!  

It is probably too late to say he was ran over by a car...or died in any ways... She would probably want proof of death. At best, you can up the price and try to give her one last offer to buy him. Otherwise, you really have no choice but to return him...with $50 for stud fees. Unfortunately the contract is her protection.... Yes, the situation sucks but that's part of reality. I would also cut all ties with her. There will always be stupid people who keep and abuse animals.  You can't save them all. I am really sorry.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 5, 2012)

You need to just take him back and be done with it.  Pay your breeders fee.  There isn't anything you can do about it at this point.  You are going to have to write this one off as a painful lesson learned.   

Even if you were right about what you said, you shot yourself in the foot when you insulted the lady's handling of her animals and now she doesn't want to sell the buck to you.  I've been down that road a number of times recently.  The fact is, it doesn't matter how right you are.  It doesn't matter if the woman is bad at taking care of her animals.  She is determined to  set you up to be the villain.  You can't fight people like that.  They are mean and underhanded.  They will always see you as the bad guy because they are unable to see their own participation in the problem.

Just let it go and be glad it isn't worse.  And know that you will have some nice kids to carry on your bucks bloodlines.


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## SkyWarrior (Nov 5, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> You need to just take him back and be done with it.  Pay your breeders fee.  There isn't anything you can do about it at this point.  You are going to have to write this one off as a painful lesson learned.
> 
> Even if you were right about what you said, you shot yourself in the foot when you insulted the lady's handling of her animals and now she doesn't want to sell the buck to you.  I've been down that road a number of times recently.  The fact is, it doesn't matter how right you are.  It doesn't matter if the woman is bad at taking care of her animals.  She is determined to  set you up to be the villain.  You can't fight people like that.  They are mean and underhanded.  They will always see you as the bad guy because they are unable to see their own participation in the problem.
> 
> Just let it go and be glad it isn't worse.  And know that you will have some nice kids to carry on your bucks bloodlines.


I agree.


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## ksalvagno (Nov 6, 2012)

I agree with the others. Take the male back and report her to the ASPCA. Take pictures of her animals and her farm if you can.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 6, 2012)

Reporting her to the ASPCA won't do any good.  The animals have to be nearly dead to do any good on that account.  I know, I've been there.  I reported my first landlord who took wretched care of their animals and had animals dying every single week.  The authorities did NOTHING!  They wouldn't even go take a look.  AND I sent pictures.  Plus, these people had a previous history with the SPCA.  But because they were farm animals, the standards for abuse were different.

It was terribly frustrating.


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## aggieterpkatie (Nov 6, 2012)

I'd be tempted to just send her the check for $200 and see if she cashes it. If she does, she can't take you to court. If she takes you to court, worst that'll happen is you'll have to give the buck back.  I doubt she'd go through the hassle of actually taking you to court.  And if she does, then submit a bill for all the care you've given him while you had him (vaccines and such you said she'd cover).


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## EllieMay (Nov 6, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> You need to just take him back and be done with it.  Pay your breeders fee.  There isn't anything you can do about it at this point.  You are going to have to write this one off as a painful lesson learned.   Even if you were right about what you said, you shot yourself in the foot when you insulted the lady's handling of her animals and now she doesn't want to sell the buck to you.  I've been down that road a number of times recently.  The fact is, it doesn't matter how right you are.  It doesn't matter if the woman is bad at taking care of her animals.  She is determined to  set you up to be the villain.  You can't fight people like that.  They are mean and underhanded.  *They will always see you as the bad guy because they are unable to see their own participation in the problem.* Just let it go and be glad it isn't worse.  And know that you will have some nice kids to carry on your bucks bloodlines.


.             *So true.*


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## Peep_Show (Nov 6, 2012)

Your contract was for a breeder's lease and replacement value; there was nothing in there about purchasing the animal outright.   That is not part of the contract as it's not a lease option to buy.  The only valid reason for you to send a check for $200+ is IF  something happened that rendered the animal useless (i.e. death, mutilation, contagious disease).

Let's liken this situation to something tangible of, oh, say, art.   The Deadbeat Museum has a painting that you'd like to display in an exhibit for awhile.  You agree to a renters fee of $50 and a replacement value of $200 should something happen to the painting.  You are entitled to display the picture to your heart's content.  It's a nice picture.  You like it.  In fact, you find out your grandmother painted it.  At the end of your period of rental, you want to keep the picture.  NO!  That would be depriving the person of their property.  The bottom line, it IS their property.  Just because you want it and it is in your possession does not mean it's yours.   Should the picture perish in a fire or get stolen, your contract makes the Deadbeat Museum curator whole per contract.  Keeping picture because you covet it is rather unethical, no matter how much you dislike the Deadbeat Museum's curator who doesn't keep a tidy museum and doesn't have near the appreciation of the painting as you do.

Per contract law, you need to return the animal in same or better condition than when you received him.  Sorry.  Not the answer you want to hear.   Document all the care you gave the goat, whatever you paid for medications, etc., and chalk it up to the cost of doing business to maintain the animal to your satisfaction.  When you return the animal, play nice to the owner and offer to buy it then when the animal is back in her possession and when she says "NO!" ask her to keep you in mind.  But do not act like you're entitled to the animal or you will have no chance in heck of her ever doing business with you.  Situations change and in the future she might become desperate to unload the animal....and if you leave the door open, you might get first dibs.  

Having run breeding contracts in both goat and horse circles I can tell you it's a small world and integrity is everything.  Take the high road.  You did right by the goat while it was in your possession.   Do not create a situation where you have to defend yourself (especially in court).  Those that have to deal with Madam Deadbeat have her number and really won't pay much cotton to what she has to say if they've had half the headache you have in their business dealings with her.   And, please, don't attempt any payment-in-lieu shennanigans unless the animal is damaged OR both sides agree to the purchase.   Holding onto an animal while waiting for her to perhaps cash the check (and especially if she doesn't) just reeks on your part.   Play it fair and square.  You'll probably win in the long run.


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## allanimals21 (Nov 6, 2012)

Like I said the purchase agreement was made over the phone.  Then she apparently called and bad mouthed me to some other breeders who said to take me to court.  Its funny because I guarantee she didn't mention her plan with her does.  Or that his collar was to tight, or how he was thin.  But tahts fine.  I can be the bad guy.  The last moron like her I dealt with was out of business withing a year or so.  She will learn the hard way.  We are going to discuss possible purchasing of him.  I plan on having her sign an agreement for $250 like we discussed and I will have him gone by Jan 1st like had been discussed at a different point.  Along with having a witness there to sign also.  I will be putting in some calls to some animal welfare people also.  I have been istructed to do so by a vet.  He's going back thursday and with any luck her does won't come into heat.  I didnt bad mouth her animals or really.  I just told her the facts that she doesn't know what she is doing.  She needs to learn how to properly care for them before she should be breeding.


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## Peep_Show (Nov 7, 2012)

Well, the best thing is to get any agreement in writing.   Written contract trumps oral contract every time, especially in court.


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## Queen Mum (Nov 7, 2012)

Peep_Show said:
			
		

> Your contract was for a breeder's lease and replacement value; there was nothing in there about purchasing the animal outright.   That is not part of the contract as it's not a lease option to buy.  The only valid reason for you to send a check for $200+ is IF  something happened that rendered the animal useless (i.e. death, mutilation, contagious disease).
> 
> Let's liken this situation to something tangible of, oh, say, art.   The Deadbeat Museum has a painting that you'd like to display in an exhibit for awhile.  You agree to a renters fee of $50 and a replacement value of $200 should something happen to the painting.  You are entitled to display the picture to your heart's content.  It's a nice picture.  You like it.  In fact, you find out your grandmother painted it.  At the end of your period of rental, you want to keep the picture.  NO!  That would be depriving the person of their property.  The bottom line, it IS their property.  Just because you want it and it is in your possession does not mean it's yours.   Should the picture perish in a fire or get stolen, your contract makes the Deadbeat Museum curator whole per contract.  Keeping picture because you covet it is rather unethical, no matter how much you dislike the Deadbeat Museum's curator who doesn't keep a tidy museum and doesn't have near the appreciation of the painting as you do.
> 
> ...


That is a VERY good illustration of what breeding contracts are all about.  I agree totally.


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## Stacykins (Nov 7, 2012)

*cough* too bad the vet can't give him a buck vasectomy. So he's still got his obvious jewels, but no fertility. 

But I do agree that she has the upper hand. It sucks, but you just gotta let him go, or else she may try to ruin you in court.


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## Brown Chicka Brown Cow (Nov 7, 2012)

Peep_Show said:
			
		

> Your contract was for a breeder's lease and replacement value; there was nothing in there about purchasing the animal outright.   That is not part of the contract as it's not a lease option to buy.  The only valid reason for you to send a check for $200+ is IF  something happened that rendered the animal useless (i.e. death, mutilation, contagious disease).
> 
> Let's liken this situation to something tangible of, oh, say, art.   The Deadbeat Museum has a painting that you'd like to display in an exhibit for awhile.  You agree to a renters fee of $50 and a replacement value of $200 should something happen to the painting.  You are entitled to display the picture to your heart's content.  It's a nice picture.  You like it.  In fact, you find out your grandmother painted it.  At the end of your period of rental, you want to keep the picture.  NO!  That would be depriving the person of their property.  The bottom line, it IS their property.  Just because you want it and it is in your possession does not mean it's yours.   Should the picture perish in a fire or get stolen, your contract makes the Deadbeat Museum curator whole per contract.  Keeping picture because you covet it is rather unethical, no matter how much you dislike the Deadbeat Museum's curator who doesn't keep a tidy museum and doesn't have near the appreciation of the painting as you do.
> 
> ...


I completely agree.


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## Catahoula (Nov 8, 2012)

allanimals21 said:
			
		

> Like I said the purchase agreement was made over the phone.  Then she apparently called and bad mouthed me to some other breeders who said to take me to court.  Its funny because I guarantee she didn't mention her plan with her does.  Or that his collar was to tight, or how he was thin.  But tahts fine.  I can be the bad guy.  The last moron like her I dealt with was out of business withing a year or so.  She will learn the hard way.  We are going to discuss possible purchasing of him.  I plan on having her sign an agreement for $250 like we discussed and I will have him gone by Jan 1st like had been discussed at a different point.  Along with having a witness there to sign also.  I will be putting in some calls to some animal welfare people also.  I have been istructed to do so by a vet.  He's going back thursday and with any luck her does won't come into heat.  I didnt bad mouth her animals or really.  I just told her the facts that she doesn't know what she is doing.  She needs to learn how to properly care for them before she should be breeding.


Good Luck!


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