# Nevermind...Issue resolved, Thanks



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 25, 2010)

*ETA: Problem was below but the issue was resolved by the responses I received.  Thank you to all that replied.*
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Let me start by saying, I know NOTHING about horses, I don't own any and don't have a clue what normal would be.  That said, my neighbor's horses are looking pretty bad.  The female had a baby about two months back and he/she seems pretty healthy I guess, but mom is VERY skinny.  I can see all her ribs as she's walking around over there.  Wherever the feeding area is must be out of my eyeline as I don't see anything, but it could easily be hidden.  I don't know how often he feeds or what he feeds, but I see the horses munching on the wild grass "pasture" (not seeded) all day long and they have reached over the fence to snag a few plants from our side including two juvenile palm trees that I can't imagine tasted very good.  I don't mind getting a bale of hay for her though I don't know what kind to get.  How skinny is too skinny for a horse. I don't think she's all that old either as he just brought her here about a year ago.

The male (I think) horse is fleshed out and not skinny, but he looks like he could have problems with his back legs.  All I could think was that his hooves need a trim, like the front is overgrown, but again, what do I know.

At what point do you say something either to your neighbor or to animal control?  I am NOT a nosy neighbor truly, but I did call animal control after their dogs were in our yard every day and night (sleeping on our deck) and started knocking me down while trying to play.  Poor things were starved for attention!  I don't want to get involved but I can't stand to see animals being mistreated.  I'm not on speaking terms with the neighbors, I don't even know their names, but is this normal and if not what should I do?


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## freemotion (Jan 25, 2010)

It is impossible to really tell by the description...can you post a picture or two or three?

Sometimes a mare will lose condition as the nursing baby demands more than she can keep up with.  I worked at a breeding farm where money was no object and the horses got the best of the best, and with a few mares, it was still a challenge to get them in good flesh if they had a big colt.  We did our best until the colt was weaned...it was only then that we could get the mare lookin' good again. 

It is not unusual to see a little flash of ribs on a fit horse, especially a Thoroughbred or Standardbred.

On the other hand, if she is being neglected, I would be the first to take action!  But I can't tell from here, so it would be unfair to advise you either way.


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## ()relics (Jan 25, 2010)

water is impotant too...maybe a trip to the neighbors house, just as a neighbor interested in horses....I hate people looking over my fences as I'm sure most everyone else does , but I am always happy to talk to someone that is interested in horses that happens to stop by... I agree a lactating mare needs extra feed and she may not be getting enough or any concentrate...Without a concentrate a mare will lose condition quickly while her colt seems to be doing well....If you stopped by my house and asked if you could throw some hay over the fence so you could watch the horses eat; I would be glad to let you....FYI all my horses are fat and you would have a hard time luring them away from their ever present round bale of hay.


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## fadetopurple (Jan 25, 2010)

http://www.habitatforhorses.org/rescues/bodyscoring.html
I couldn't find a completely illustrated one, but that's a good starting point. A perfectly healthy, average horse is generally considered a 5. Some breeds' ideal weight is closer to a 4. You won't be able to get a completely accurate score without touching the horses (which I would obviously not recommend, for several reasons), but you can at least get an idea of what's normal. 

Are the horses noticeably fuzzy? Winter coats, even light ones, can do a lot to hide poor condition. 

Between the possibly underweight mare and the hooves, it does sound like something iffy is going on. Animal control may or may not be able to do anything. I would definitely keep an eye on the situation, but I wouldn't feed them. 

By the way, if anyone ever tries to give you the excuse "my horse is thin because he's old," they are wrong. A horse with well-maintained teeth, a good diet and no major health issues should be a healthy weight no matter how old they are.


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## ()relics (Jan 25, 2010)

I disagree...but age doesn't appear to be a factor in this case....But what do I know?


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## lupinfarm (Jan 25, 2010)

But since she had a baby not long ago, it's not uncommon for mares (and other females) to become a little (and in some cases a lot) underweight with the baby continuously nursing. Sometimes it can be difficult to feed enough to make up for the nutrients the animal is losing through nursing. 


That said, there are lots of nursing momma feeds out there.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 25, 2010)

Weather permitting I'll take and post pics tomorrow.  For the record, the fence is just about a 4' high, poorly placed, barbed wire fence I think 4 strands (without looking out my window to check), so I was just observing this while we were constructing a goat shed the last two days as I was outside a lot.  Oh, and "mama's" coat looked dingy for lack of a better term.  It has been excessively rainy here lately (very unusual) and their "pasture" has become a shallow lake with grass popping through.  I doubt she is dingy from laying down, but it almost looked patchy.  I really don't know how to explain it well.  As I said, I'll post pics tomorrow if there is enough light to take the pic without rain obstructing the view.  Based on the link I'd assume she's a weak 3, but I wouldn't touch her with a relatively new baby around.  I have touched her muzzle (forehead, whatever the term is high on the face) when she stretched over the fence, but that was only a few times last summer and that is the extent of our acquaintance


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## freemotion (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks for caring!


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## ducks4you (Jan 26, 2010)

I going to catch it from THIS group for posting this, BUT, the first year that I owned horses, I bought a TB mare that was a really "hard-keeper."  Everybody else in my small herd was QH or QH cross, or grade, and younger, so the rest did great on just hay, but not this mare.  I had a real problem keeping weight on her, and she got really skinny.  Finally, I had a vet out to look at her.  The vet suggested isolating her and feeding 1 bale hay/day to her to start bringing her back.    I didn't keep her, for a variety of reasons.  
I just lost my Arab--I've posted about him before here.  I bought him at 4 years old when he was skinny as a rail.  Over the 23 years that I owned him he weight was up and down throughout his life with me.  I believe that he never developed enough fat cells when he was young--he was NEVER overweight when my other same age horses were putting on rolls.  But, in his last years, after straight alfalfa hay free choice in the manger year round, plenty of grazing and 5 pounds daily of 16% pelleted feed I was able to keep his chest and back side filled in.  SOOO...sometimes weight issues are due to the individual horse.  HOWEVER, I kept his feet trimmed his whole life.  It bothers me that your neighbor has spent the money to breed a mare, but won't spend it to keep up with the feet.  I have seen untrimmed horses stuck in stalls that have hooves that look like elf shoes because they curl up if they grow too long.  Those hooves can be brought back, but they pull on a horse's tendons and overstretch them--imagine wearing shoes too large everyday that you couldn't take off!  I've also heard of a horse owner who honestly believed that their horse could survive on table scraps.
If there are ANY other neighbors who see these horses, call animal control--that way, you won't necessarily be approached by these neighbors later on.  People at animal control aren't monsters, but they will educate if possible, rather than spend money from their budget relocating animals.  If you don't know your neighbors well, you won't know if they are neglectful on purpose, or because of ignorance.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 27, 2010)

ducks4you said:
			
		

> If you don't know your neighbors well, you won't know if they are neglectful on purpose, or because of ignorance.


I'm still hoping to get a picture today since we seem to actually have that thing...oh what's it called...sunlight, yeah haven't seen it in a while.  Anyway I'll get the pic and let everyone here decide, hopefully I'm just overly nervous.  I would like to think it's ignorance and not a lack of concern for an animals real needs.  Animal control had to go to their place 2-3 times about the dogs from my calls but it worked and I haven't seen them over here since but I hope they still have them.  Animal control told me then that they had been over there before and knew the couple...I don't know what that means exactly.  I had spoken to the wife shortly after they moved in (don't remember her name) and she had mentioned that they were "city" people and she was not happy about the move.  "He thinks he's a country guy just because his uncle lived in the country" or something I forget exactly what she said.  Basically they didn't know what they were doing.  I do like seeing the horses back there so I hope if it does come to calling animal control again (which I really don't want to do!) then I hope they are just educated on proper care.  Maybe she just needs to be wormed...?


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 7, 2010)

Here are the pictures.  Sorry it took so long.  I had to get a combo of a bright enough day and them being close enough. Pic Heavy.  Please tell me what I should do.
"Mama"













hip bone




ribs and back bone

Baby (maybe not her baby, on closer inspection I'm not even sure if he's a horse or a donkey!  see how much I know?)





"Dad" his feet seem better now but the stance still seems off.


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## Roll farms (Feb 7, 2010)

Yeah, baby horses do look a bit different when they're young...what strikes me is that one looks younger than '2 mos.' old.  

And the mare is definitely under weight...could be she's a hard keeper who's also nursing and lost condition from that, but she definitely needs more weight.

Looks like she's been rubbing her tail, too... could use a deworming.

I hate to, unless someone's out and out abusing a critter, get in anyone's business because I don't like folk's to get in mine.

I don't see this as 'abusive neglect'...more as ignorance / laziness on the part of the owner.  Kind of hard to tell on their hooves by just seeing his, but they don't look HORRIBLE.

I've seen folks lose their critters who didn't need to, and seen folks who needed to, get to keep them.   I don't trust most 'rescuers'...

JMHO.


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## helmstead (Feb 7, 2010)

Looks like a case of nursing dam who didn't get enough nutritional support through pregnancy and lactation.  She needs help, the problem is getting her the help, as Roll has said.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 7, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Yeah, baby horses do look a bit different when they're young...what strikes me is that one looks younger than '2 mos.' old.
> 
> I hate to, unless someone's out and out abusing a critter, get in anyone's business because I don't like folk's to get in mine.
> 
> I don't see this as 'abusive neglect'...more as ignorance / laziness on the part of the owner.  Kind of hard to tell on their hooves by just seeing his, but they don't look HORRIBLE.


Okay, whew.  I'm very glad I asked.  It looked to me like she needed immediate attention but like I said, I don't know anything about horses so I don't know what an acceptable range is.  The young one is at least 2 months because I remember seeing him after Thanksgiving but I'm not sure how long before that.  I really didn't want to stick my nose in it unless they are being abusive and since you say they aren't I guess I'll just pipe down.  Ignorance or laziness I can believe from what I've seen from this side of the fence, but I'm not about to start a neighbor war over it if she's actually okay.  If she's still "sickly" looking IMO come spring, maybe I'll print out some info on horse care regarding acceptable weights, worms, ect and discreetly mail it to them without a return label.  Thanks for all your help.  I hope she starts looking better!


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## freemotion (Feb 7, 2010)

I have to disagree....the mare's condition is bad.  Notice the muscle loss along the topline.  I can't see the feet enough to know if they are bad or not, but I suspect they are not horrible...if barefoot, she may be wearing them down.

She is VERY underweight.  It worries me more that she is nursing a two month old colt, as he will continue to deplete her.  She is giving him everything, he looks ok.  She has no room in her condition for any further neglect.

HOWEVER......from the pictures, it does look like the grass is starting to grow there.  If this is true, she should pick up condition if she has full access to plenty of green, growing grass.  So this makes me a little less worried for her.

Either way, the owners seriously need some education.  Although I do not know ALL the facts, I'd be inclined to call the authorities and state that these people need help, not prosecution.  Then it would be out of my hands.  They would get a visit, a lecture, and if all goes well, the horses would get checked up on another time or two.  A little accountability can be a good thing.

JMHO.


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## LauraM (Feb 7, 2010)

I agree with freemotion, the mare is in bad shape.  IF the grass is growing now in your area (unlike here where we are buried under three feet of snow), then the mare may pick up.....though with a growing baby, she may not.  As he gets older, he takes more milk,....some mares may simply not be able to recoup the weight loss on forage alone. 

If you do have grass growing now, then maybe keep an eye on her and see if she starts to improve.  If she does not look better in a month or so, then I'd probably take action of some sort.


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## helmstead (Feb 7, 2010)

I would be ashamed to have a horse in that condition...just to clarify in case someone mistook my comment.  She scores out at or under a 2...her body is eating her muscle mass and she's clearly infested with worms (as is the foal).

Thing with reporting them is that if there are other animals in 'good condition' in the pasture, AC won't do anything...rescues are all pretty well boiling over, too.

Its a real shame.


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## Roll farms (Feb 7, 2010)

That's the thing, it's just at the border of "call them now" and "leave it be and hope for the best"...

Yes, she looks bad.  I'd feel pitiful for her, too.

We had a guy north of us get 37 horses removed from his place, 19 of them were scored at 1-1.5.  Maybe seeing that on the news several times has desensitized me, because compared to those horses (who weren't fed for weeks at a time and there was NO grass in their 3 acre pasture...) that mare looks better.

Maybe you could buy some horse dewormer and a small bag of treats, then offer it to them, say something like "We won this in a gift basket from (insert farm store name here) and we don't need it...thought maybe you guys could use it since you have horses."

Or write a letter to animal control anonymously (or a phone call) so they can't *prove* it was you.

You're in a heck of a spot, and I have to congratulate you for caring...


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## freemotion (Feb 7, 2010)

Animal control won't respond to anonymous calls.....one way to weed out their tasks.

If animal control stops by to look and doesn't remove any animals, it puts them on notice and starts a paper trail.  The goal is to get that mare fed and taken care of.....maybe a visit is all it will take.


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## ducks4you (Feb 8, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Animal control won't respond to anonymous calls.....one way to weed out their tasks.
> 
> If animal control stops by to look and doesn't remove any animals, it puts them on notice and starts a paper trail.  The goal is to get that mare fed and taken care of.....maybe a visit is all it will take.


I agree.  My previous vet--too far away to go to now --who does ONLY equine, told me that broodmares often get fed up to 20 pounds of grain/day before and after they foal out to keep their weight up.  She needs more calories.  Grass alone won't do it.  It is SSOOOO  hard to put weight back on once they lose it.  My gelding never got this skinny, even as an "Old Man."
Like I said before, Animal Control aren't going to "pistol whip" these people.  They are probably going to educate them.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 8, 2010)

Hmm.  I like the idea of saying "Oh I just happened to win this from a raffle.  Thought it might come in handy for you."  I don't really have much extra money but I'll see what I can do.  Maybe a thing of dewormer, some of those medicine treat things, and a bag of grain won't look suspicious...  What kind of grain is best?  If I got a bale of hay too, what hay do I get?  The grass has been growing since around late November but really came in in December.  These are the only three in the pasture.  I don't think they own any other animals.

My husband wants me to butt out and I don't want to cause problems, so I'll try a few nice approaches before resorting to AC and asking them to educate them.  I would hate for AC to take them away, I'm sure they are full of animals with the way things are.  Hopefully if it comes to that then they will just give them a lecture as you said.


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## KinderKorner (Feb 8, 2010)

This is a hard thing.

The mare does look pretty bad. Her body don't body me but the way her back bone is sticking up so far is just awful.

But I also know for a fact, that my gelding whom I love dearly. Only scores a 3 on the chart. He used to be a fat little paint. But in the past few years his condition especially in the winter has dropped off. He looks awful. I'm ashamed. But after having a vet look at him, and after giving him grain and weight gain I don't know what else to do. He's wormed, and fed lots of food. His pasture buddies are all obease. I'm not sure what is wrong with him. It really saddens me, but it's defiently not neglect. We haven even left 800 pound round bales out for free choice. And 3 horses ate them down in 2 weeks.  He still didn't put on weight.

I also saved a rescue and she looked like that for months until I brought her weight up. 

It's hard to say if it's neglect or not. I would say if the other horses in the pasture look good it's probably not. But it would be a good idea to maybe knock on their door and just mention she is kind of skinny. And maybe offer to buy her some hay or grain.

Note: It also looks like there is nice grass starting to grow. So I wouldn't really call it neglect, because there is food there. But they is for sure something wrong.


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## freemotion (Feb 8, 2010)

I seriously doubt AC would take them away.  I also wonder if these people would know what to do with a tube of paste wormer, and how to safely introduce grain.  AC would work to educate them first.

Even if they won't take anonymous reports, they are supposed to keep your identity from the person you report on.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 9, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I seriously doubt AC would take them away.  I also wonder if these people would know what to do with a tube of paste wormer, and how to safely introduce grain.  AC would work to educate them first.
> 
> Even if they won't take anonymous reports, they are supposed to keep your identity from the person you report on.


Well that's comforting!  I don't want to be a bad neighbor and them end up hating us, but if they can get a little education I'd feel better.  I'd walk over there and talk to them myself if I had a clue what I was talking about.  I'll find a way to help.  Thank you for all the suggestions.


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## big brown horse (Feb 9, 2010)

Yup, I've had to call animal control on a man who kept his horses in the same stables as me. (It was an inner-city Sanford and Son's-type of stable that was only self care and a terrible manager.  99% of the horse owners took very good care of their horses, but there is always "that one".) 

His horses were two doors down from mine.  The horses stayed locked away in a couple of dark, back stalls that weren't easily seen from the aisleway.   He let his horses wither away to skeletons after he lost his job and couldn't afford to feed them anymore.  He was a dark, nasty man and for a second I was afraid to call due to retaliation...I did it anyway and took my chances.  I couldn't NOT do it.  As soon as I saw those poor horses I ran to my car and called.

Animal control did show up and I was so afraid he would find out it was me who called them.  He never did.  He was given so many days to show the horse's improvement and clean up the stalls (which were knee deep in manure and mud) etc.  He did get his act together believe it or not.  The horses never did look 100%, but they looked much better.


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## dianneS (Feb 9, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> ducks4you said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like a case of ignorance.  I wish people would educate themselves better on how to care for and raise livestock _before _they move to the country and try it!  Livestock are not pets!  They're not like cats and dogs.    Its only the animals that end up suffering as these people learn by trial and error!  It drives me crazy!    I did live in the city for a while when I was young and stupid, but thank God I'm from farming country folk background on both sides of my family for generations.  Farming and country living is just in your blood some times.

I hope these people can get some education on proper care for their animals or come to the realization that they just bit off more than they can chew and let some animals go to better homes and care for the ones they can handle.  Let us know how it works out.


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## LauraM (Feb 10, 2010)

Please don't give them a bag of grain.  It has to be introduced gradually and carefully, or can cause colic.  Sounds like these people would be more likely to just dump several pounds into a bucket and let her have at it.    That would cause far more problems.


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## freemotion (Feb 13, 2010)

That mare is in deplorable condition.  The picture shows more than just unthriftiness after foaling and the demands of a nursing foal.  I define "deplorable condition" as severe muscle loss.  I define the latter as a little ribby and loss of fat.  That mare is metabolizing her own flesh to feed that baby.  She is in danger.

I have been a horse professional for all of my adult life (several decades) and I stand by that opinion.  It is not a humble opinion.

Only the OP knows that neighbor.  I have had neighbors that I would have a conversation with, and neighbors that I would secretly make a phone call on.  Only the OP knows.  I suspect that most who replied recognize that we have limited knowledge of the situation.  The problem is, how can the OP have a conversation about horse care when she admits that she knows nothing about horses?

She knows enough to recognize skinny, though, and I applaud her for coming here before jumping to conclusions.  I still say she needs to make a phone  call and let the experts handle educating the owner.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 13, 2010)

Sorry to sound like a gossip when I'm trying to determine if any intervention is even necessary.  I'd rather offend some person on the board and possibly help this animal, now that it has been determined that she needs help.  Had everyone said that she was fine and looked normal I would have left it alone.  Also, as far as neighbors go, the few dealings I've had with them were less than pleasant.  These aren't the kind of people you ask for a cup of sugar or to keep an eye on your place if you leave for a day.  These aren't the kind of people who say "hi" when you pass them in the market.  I'm sure they are nice people but either have different mannerisms or have found a reason to dislike me.  Either way, I can't stand by if I suspect an animal is in distress.  I didn't want to go sticking my nose in their door when I wouldn't know the first thing about horses.  I came here to ask people who _*DO*_ know what good and bad condition is to determine IF I should do anything and if they said yes, then what I should do.  I feel that I was given many helpful replies and that I now have a reason and a way to walk over there and have some aid.  By the same token I wouldn't just assume someone's dog was overly skinny or something, some dogs just look very thin but realistically they are just bred to be streamlined I guess.  I didn't want to walk over and say "Hey your horse has issues" when I didn't know if that was legitimate.  Thanks to the wonderful responses I am going over there today with a bucket of goodies including wormer and a print out on how to use it and on proper condition of a horse and I just pray it is well received and the horse improves.  I don't want to sound snarky or rude to the person who called me a gossip, I am just stating the facts.


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## adoptedbyachicken (Feb 13, 2010)

Lets stay on track here, the OP stated she did not know horses and has not approached the owners YET.  No one is jumping to conclusions about why the mare is in that condition.

I had 2 mares and foals in that condition in my place 3 years ago.  I resucued them in much worse shape, and mid pregnancy.  While they did gain prior to foaling they lost big time again afterward and all I could do was support them best I could while the recovered.  They came from starvation and neglect and were just 2 of 103 that were taken on in a big effort by many.  I was proud to be a part of it, but honestly embarrased that they looked like that for so long.  You can only do so much, feeding too much can hurt too.

Please approach these people carefully and respectfully.  I'm sure your intentions are good and if they are caring they will see your intent.  Best to go with someone just in case they are not as friendly as we hope.

Good luck.


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## Lil Chickie Mama (Feb 14, 2010)

I went over with the bucket of goodies and knocked but no one was home.  Confrontation averted!  I left it on the doorstep and I hope they will use it.  I will be cautiously watching from this side of the fence and just praying for her condition to pick up.  If she gets worse or doesn't get better in a month or so (weather permitting pasture grazing) I will at that point call AC and ask them only to educate these people, though I know it is their choice not mine.  Again, thank you for all replies!


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## dianneS (Feb 14, 2010)

That sounds like a good plan.  You've done what you can do for now.  Keep an eye on the horse and see how it goes.  Are you sure that the horse may not be a "rescue" situation?  It takes a long, long time for horses to put weight on, its not healthy for them to gain weight quickly, so I would give more than a month before calling AC. 

At least they know now that someone is concerned for their horses condition and will hopefully try their best to do something about it.  If they are ignorant about how to care for horses, they may need some education.  If they know someone is concerned about the horse perhaps they will seek out that education.  You can find anything online!  So lets hope for the best for this horse.

Good for you for doing what you can and caring about that horse!


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## currycomb (Feb 14, 2010)

curious, how was it resolved?


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## big brown horse (Feb 15, 2010)

Sometimes us horse owners take for granted that non horse owners  know everything we know.  My sister knows nothing about horses and she had a similar situation happen to her out in the country.  She was lucky she had me to help her assess a small group of horses in her neighbor's paddock.  

They lived down a dead end dirt road so nobody else drove by these horses like she did.  She noticed one day that they looked thin so she called me.

She and I walked over to the lady's place to have a talk with her.  The lady seemed completely oblivious that anything was wrong and totally denyed her horses were starving...which they were, IMO.  (My sister would have taken the lady's excuses as truth had she not had me to ask even more knowledgable prying questions.) 

The horses that we could see in the paddocks looked almost like the one that Lil chicky mama showed us.  (We had no idea what the ones looked like that were stuck in the stalls b/c she wouldn't let us see them.)

It was then that we decided to call animal control.  I helped her tell animal control all the right things to say etc.  We had to call more than once too.  By the time they got there some of the horses were sadly beyond help and some that were stalled were already dead. 

We didn't find out until AFTER A.C. seized all of her horses AND she mysteriously moved away in the middle of the night, that the poor stalled horses were so bad they ATE their stalls, really!! There was almost no wood left to seperate the horses.  It was sickening.

Anyway, Little chickie mama, bless your heart and thank you so much for having a heart and the guts to confront these neighbors.  I hope all of your efforts pay off for the sake of the horses.


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