# Selenium-E Gel instead of Bo-Se?



## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

PBS livestock carries a selenium E gel.  A 5ml dose gives 3mg of Se, just as 3cc of Bo-Se would.  Does oral gel delivery have any less effectiveness than an injection of Bo-Se would?  

I'd much rather not have to get it Rx or have to deal with an injection just yet - I know I'll need to learn to do it, but I'm not quite there yet.

Any thoughts?

I don't think my does have EVER had selenium given - occasional loose mineral given and a mineral block available.  Now that I have them they have been getting the max dose of loose mineral added to their feed - but in a selenium defficient area that's not likely enough, right?  The mineral is MannaPro, 1/2oz per day, selenium is 12ppm - what ever that means.  

I've read it recommended that Bo-Se or the gel be given at 5 weeks prior to kidding and again at 3 weeks prior to kidding - is this the general recommendation?

Thanks!


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## ()relics (Dec 23, 2010)

I use BoSe... and use it often on anything I think needs an extra boost including, gestating does, 6 weeks prior to kidding, and new kids.  I dose at the rate of 2.5cc/100# for adults and newborns get 1/2cc.  IMO, I want the full effect and anything less than BoSe _May_ not deliver it...again JMO...Everyone does things differently, I am sure, based on the selenium availibility in their specific area.


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## lilhill (Dec 23, 2010)

Selenium E gel is better than nothing if that's all you have, but not as effective as the RX BoSe injected.


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## elevan (Dec 23, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> The mineral is MannaPro, 1/2oz per day, selenium is 12ppm - what ever that means.


To answer your quandry on what this means - it's parts per million (ppm).  If there are a million "parts" to the mix then 12 of them are selenium.

As to the rest of your post BoSe is really the best.  But we all have to do what is right for our individual farms.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

Thanks guys - general consensus is obviously Bo-Se then.  Injection scares the crap out of me - I know I'll get there eventually - just freaks me out a bit.  

I do understand what 12ppm means - what I don't understand, though, is what that means in the grand scheme of things as far as selenium goes.  If goats were supplemented every day with selenium at that count (which mine have not been) would that be sufficient selenium?    And what about Sweetlix Meatmaker?  Pkg reads 50ppm - would that be enough every day or would that actually end up being too much?   If most places are selenium deficient, shouldn't the goat minerals be formulated to add *extra* selenium instead of having to supplement it in addition to a supplement?  And why do we have to get an Rx just to get our goats to a normal level?  I understand there's a narrow margin of safety and for that reason it's Rx by vet - but if almost ALL goats are defficient - seems crazy to need a script.  

So now I guess I'm ranting - sorry.

Just as with doctors for my family, I appreciate that vets are there when they're needed - I just don't like to HAVE to use them when they aren't needed.  And it bugs me that I need them to maintain normal - not just when I can't maintain normal on my own - that is, for sickness or injury.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 23, 2010)

I've done a lot of research into this, and I have decided for myself that I want to provide my goats with selenium yeast (in particular Diamond V's) but I am having difficulty getting any. I did a lot of research and decided that I wanted to avoid Bo-Se as much a possible and use it or an inorganic source only if I had to.


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## elevan (Dec 23, 2010)

Unfortunately every area is deficient but to what degree depends on the area.  Sooo...what's the amount needed for your area? You'll be best to check with your vet or other local breeders to get that answer.

I completely agree that we should be able to have access to the things needed to maintain normal without an rx...maybe someday...

And I'm completely with you on injections.  They scare me every time I give them.  I guess because I know from my standpoint that they hurt so they must hurt my goats too, right?  I have a young very small goat on PenG injections right now and I am so nervous giving him his injections.  But he doesn't seem to mind a bit.  Guess he's tougher than me


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## ksalvagno (Dec 23, 2010)

It really depends on how selenium deficient your area is. It can even be different on your farm and someone else's down the street from you. I use Sweetlix Meatmaker and I have to copper bolus my goats and give BoSe at least once a year. And I can see a difference in the goats when I do this.

You could certainly experiment with different types of selenium and see what happens. Nothing wrong with that and I'm sure lots of people would be interested in your results. Any less shots that I have to do is great with me. But I want healthy kids and don't have the time to really try experimenting with stuff let alone can afford losses. So I just give the BoSe shots.

After you have been doing shots for a while, it doesn't seem like a big deal. For me it is easier to give a shot than to try and get goats to eat the right amount of something. But I have been giving animals shots for over 13 years.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

Perhaps I will try the gel.  For two reasons:

1) they've never had supplemental selenium beyond the above mentioned occasional loose mineral and mineral block (though they do get mineral daily now).  They are 3.5 and 2.5 years old and seem to be in good health thus far - BUT - I know mineral issues can be cumulative.  The local feed stores all say our area is selenium deficient.  Both have kidded before and babies seemed to be in good health - though the dairy sold them off quickly (likely for meat) so long term health of recent babies is unknown.  (side note: these does were born at the dairy as well, so at least SOME babies have turned out ok).  All this to say, they've done fine without Bo-Se up until now, the gel would be more than what they're getting now (or have ever gotten previously), so perhaps I can afford to experiment a little.

2) I dont WANT to have to give an injection.

Thank you.  Sometimes I just need a sounding board in order to come to a conclusion.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> I've done a lot of research into this, and I have decided for myself that I want to provide my goats with selenium yeast (in particular Diamond V's) but I am having difficulty getting any. I did a lot of research and decided that I wanted to avoid Bo-Se as much a possible and use it or an inorganic source only if I had to.


I've just begun using Diamond V's yeast - but I'm assuming it's not the same stuff you're talking about.  I have the Diamond V from Hoegger's.  It is a yeast - but selenium yeast?  I'll have to look into it further.


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## dkluzier (Dec 23, 2010)

I give Selenium E gel.  Never had a problem and/or needed to get the prescription Bo-Se.


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## rebelINny (Dec 23, 2010)

I get a Selenium/Vit. E gel from Jeffers. One tube doses all my goats at once. So far so good. I haven't used it for very long though so experimenting too I guess.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 23, 2010)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that is different, I have not done the research yet to see if it contains any selenium yeast in it, and if it does, if it's enough as I live in a selenium deficient area.

One thing that is interesting to note is that once I started giving my goats Thorvin kelp, within 2 weeks a doe that had been having silent heats, went into very obvious heat.  When I bred her, my buck, who had had a lot of false mounts (symptom of selenium deficiency) the last time I used him, this time he had NO trouble and did the deed 5 times in less then 5 minutes. The only thing that had changed was the kelp. 

At this point I don't think the kelp will provide enough selenium to keep them at the levels they need to be, but I think it may allow me to get  by with something with a smaller amount of selenium then the Diamond V selenium yeast, which is very concentrated and it would take me like 10 years to go through a 50lb bag (all I can get it in) and it goes bad in 2.


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 23, 2010)

I'm working in the kelp as well - I've only had them a few weeks now - I've been slowly adding in the supplements that I want to have them on.  Just finally got them to take their minerals - now they love it - and just switched from a couple weeks of daily probios (as they transitioned and settled in) to Diamond V - next is the kelp (I think it's korivin - it's the stuff from Azure).  I'm glad to know your goats have done well on it.  Do you give it free choice or do you have an amount that you supplement with?  If you dose it, how much do you use and at what intervals?

Thank you - I love being able to network ideas since I'm so new to this!


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 24, 2010)

I would give it to them free choice, but it seems like they would eat so much of it that I'm afraid of them eating too much because they just LOVE it and beg for more. So I give each goat 1/2 oz once a day (in the morning), which is I think 2 1/2 tsp? It's not much, and that is the recommended dose for all goats, not just ND's which I have. I mix it in with this grain mix. 1 C sprouted barley, 2 1/2 tsp  kelp, 1 tsp comfrey leaf, 1 tsp red raspberry leaf, 2 tsp black strap molasses and 2 tsp kombucha vinegar or apple cider vinger. Eventually I will be changing that as I can, adding in more sprouted grains/seeds and herbs when I can get them, but that is what I am doing currently and they seem to be doing great. I'm just concerned about my copper levels right now. I would also be doing it differently if I had any does in milk. I give this equally to all which includes 1 buck, 1buckling. Two heavily pregnant does (due in early feb) and 2 does due in april and may.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 24, 2010)

I was a little squeamish about the injections at first, but let me tell you!  Anymore I would MUCH rather give an injection than drench.  Easy peasy.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Dec 24, 2010)

> Just as with doctors for my family, I appreciate that vets are there when they're needed - I just don't like to HAVE to use them when they aren't needed.  And it bugs me that I need them to maintain normal - not just when I can't maintain normal on my own - that is, for sickness or injury.


a lot of us do some of our own vetting so dont feel bad about taking a whack at it. sometimes its just lack of having a big animal vet around..... and some of us just do it b/c we can. 

you might wanna check with your local extension agent - they'll have the best info on your local selenium situation. that way you'll know for sure.

and dont feel bad about not wanting to give shots. everyone has their limits so do what works for your barnyard. i had to work myself up for 3 days to give our pup a vaccine. she didnt care at all but now i need therapy
;-)

you might want to check with a local 4H club. we have our 4H kids do our shots for lots of reasons:

1. one of the kids is in training to be a vet tech
2. its cheap and they already have the meds and equipment - i usually just give them $20 to cover everything that i dont have to buy
3. it goes toward their "points" (???) for their 4H standing
4. it plugs you into the local goat community which is your best source for local info (parasites, local disease issues, possible customers to purchase your goat babies etc) 

good luck!


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## nmred (Dec 30, 2010)

OK, here is another question to throw into the mix  I like the idea of using the selenium yeast but can't get it in my area, and shipping costs would really add to the cost making it too expensive for me.  But...at Walmart I found selenium tablets in the supplement/vitamen section.  They are made from selenium yeast and are 200 mcg per tablet.  I bought some and am going to mix it in with their weekly herbal wormer (Molly's!).  What do you think?  Will one tablet each be enough?  Should I just give a few weeks before delivery since that's when you give the BoSe and give the equivalent of 2.5 mg (15 tablets!) or is it OK to give every week and to all, even the wethers?

I'm thinking it's worth a try.  The bottle was only $4 so I'm not out much if it doesn't work.  I don't think they would overdose on this small amount every week???  What do you all think?


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 30, 2010)

Sounds like a good idea to me! I just don't know about the dosing. Dosing will be different then an injection. Just be careful because too much selenium can be fatal, although with using a whole food form you would really have to give quite a bit extra for the animals body to not be able to handle it. 

I'll have to look in my local store for some, I had thought about that but thought that the price would be really high.


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## nmred (Dec 30, 2010)

Thanks, CrownofThorns.  I think it should work.  I'm going to go ahead and try a tablet a week per goat and watch carefully to see how they do.  They get a good goat mineral, too, so I'm not sure how much they need, if any.  This is such a guessing game!  It can be frustrating.  But 200 mcg isn't much when compared to the 2.5 mg they get from the shots (how does a mcg compare to a mg, anyway ), so it should be safe.  

By the way, where do you get your kelp from?  I'd like to try some but have no idea where to get it?  Is it a powder or just dried stalks?  How do you put it out for them?

Love your ideas, and you seem very knowledgeable about all this.  Thanks for sharing!


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 30, 2010)

I'm not very experienced or knowledgeable at all, I've been a goat owner for 6 months.  But I have spent a lot of time researching because that's what I love to do. 

I buy my kelp from Azure Standard. Thorvin brand. It is cut into small pieces and dried. I've tasted some myself and it's not fishy tasting, my goats absolutely love it.  I give them 1/2 oz every day (well right now 1 oz because I am pre-emptive treating for Johne's in case that's what my bucks died from) It cost me about $76 a 50lb bag and each bag should last me nearly a year, since I have a small herd. (now five, hopefully next month some babies )


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 30, 2010)

And if you're like me and you only have a couple goats, Azure sells a smaller version - 5 pounds for about $10.  It's not nearly as cost effective but 50 pounds would take me forever to use - and it would likely not keep for that long.  The 5 pounds is not animal feed - it's the human version, so if I can always add some to smoothies or whatever for me and my family as well.  Can't go wrong that way!!

Check to see if there is an Azure delivery near you - I know I sound like an Azure sales rep, and actually I kinda am, but not for anyone on this board.  We own a health/bulk foods delivery company - basically we deliver Azure goods in the areas of Washington state not serviced by Azure standard.  So, it's really not a sales pitch when I speak highly of their products (unless your in WA state!) it's because we truely love the products that Azure carries.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 30, 2010)

Isn't the human grade one MUCH more expensive though? It seems like it was nearly $100 more for a 50lb bag....


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## Our7Wonders (Dec 30, 2010)

Nope - it was about $10 bucks for 5 pounds.  Product code is HS617.  It's the Azure farm brand - which means it's another brand that they've repackaged into smaller packages - very likely Thorivn Kelp.  It definately is more expensive, but I have no desire to store 50 pounds at a time, nor put out the money on 50 pounds - if I had a bigger herd (only two does currently) it would be crazy to buy it in the smaller packages though.


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