# Fencing, high tensile or woven sheep/goat? Also best interior fencing? PermaNet??



## chanceosunshine (Oct 26, 2021)

Hi, We have about 14 acres of pasture that we want to fence in and do rotational grazing with, most likely, sheep and possibly a couple beeves, goats and maybe even Tamworth hogs at some point.
We're considering 6 strands of very hot high tensile fencing or woven sheep and goat fencing. For the interior, we're considering electric netting or or a poly braid for the sheep. 
I've heard that very hot wire will keep the vegetation from affecting your electric fencing.

We're also going to have a smaller fenced area for a few dairy goats, most likely ND and Kinders. We were considering Premier 1's PermaNet. Has anyone tried this?

Thanks for reading...


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## Mike CHS (Oct 26, 2021)

We have sheep and have Gaucho high tensile woven wire from TSC around most of our perimeter fences but started out with Red Brand.  Red Brand is good fence but it is twice as heavy as the Gaucho and the Gaucho is a whole lot cheaper.  I just checked prices and the Gaucho is over $100 more now than when I bought it 6 years ago.  It stretches better and you can get by with less posts.  We have 8 paddocks all together but have the largest section in the middle and have that divided into 3 sections with Premier1 netting.  That gives us plenty of flexibility and lets us make efficient use of all of the gates leading to the outside fields.  Like noted I like the weight of the Gaucho wire as I'm over 70 and I can still handle that wire.

I have nothing good to say about the poly braid.  We don't have much in the way of level fields and if you have hills, the only guarantee that you have is that at some point they are going to get out.  We also run a hot and ground above our fences and a low hot wife down low.


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## Baymule (Oct 26, 2021)

A hot wire parameter is a bad idea. You need a good strong permanent outer fence like @Mike CHS said. Then you can use the netting for inside pastures.


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## chanceosunshine (Oct 26, 2021)

Thank you, both!

 I will look into the Gaucho.


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## Alaskan (Oct 26, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> Hi, We have about 14 acres of pasture that we want to fence in and do rotational grazing with, most likely, sheep and possibly a couple beeves, goats and maybe even Tamworth hogs at some point.
> We're considering 6 strands of very hot high tensile fencing or woven sheep and goat fencing. For the interior, we're considering electric netting or or a poly braid for the sheep.
> I've heard that very hot wire will keep the vegetation from affecting your electric fencing.
> 
> ...


Where do you live?

Super dry area and electric fence can cause fires.

Lots of snow and you need WAY taller fences since they "shrink" as the snow falls.

Make your exterior fence fantastic.  With goats I would go with woven (NOT welded) wire, in a strong guage.  

Depending on your predators you might want a hot wire at the top of your perimeter fence, and maybe an electric wire on the inside of the perimeter fence to keep your animals from leaning up against it.

For interior fences you can go with something less expensive.  For horses I had excellent success with electric rope on step in fiberglass poles for temporary pastures.  Didn't work worth squat for goats.

Also, where are you in the world?  Check the normal stocking rate in your area.   Some places can handle a cow on 2 acres, but I have never lived in such a place.  The family place in Texas is 18 to 22 acres for a single cow (depending on the soil).


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## chanceosunshine (Oct 26, 2021)

The farm is in Western Pa. It's rarely super dry and it's usually very lush. We may get a foot of snow once a year here and there, but that's not really the norm.

We have a lot of coyotes. They go crazy every night in the field. 

We have other acreage we can move animals onto, but want to start on this section of the farm.



Alaskan said:


> Where do you live?
> 
> Super dry area and electric fence can cause fires.
> 
> ...


e


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## Baymule (Oct 26, 2021)

With a heavy coyote presence, you would do well to have a couple of livestock guard dogs. I have 3, plus a Great Dane/Labrador cross that thinks he’s a LGD. If I didn’t have my dogs, I wouldn’t have any sheep.


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## chanceosunshine (Oct 27, 2021)

Baymule said:


> With a heavy coyote presence, you would do well to have a couple of livestock guard dogs. I have 3, plus a Great Dane/Labrador cross that thinks he’s a LGD. If I didn’t have my dogs, I wouldn’t have any sheep.


Baymule, I read about Paris, I was going to ask about LGDs in that section, but I just couldn't bring myself too after I read your post. You wrote a beautiful tribute to Paris and to your husband. I was widowed at 37, after 19 years of marriage, it is a hard road and I'm truly sorry for your loss.
Thank you for recommending the LGDs. We have someone who raises Katahdins and she has had success with llamas keeping the coyotes away. We are weighing which to get...or maybe we should get both.


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## Alaskan (Oct 27, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> Baymule, I read about Paris, I was going to ask about LGDs in that section, but I just couldn't bring myself too after I read your post. You wrote a beautiful tribute to Paris and to your husband. I was widowed at 37, after 19 years of marriage, it is a hard road and I'm truly sorry for your loss.
> Thank you for recommending the LGDs. We have someone who raises Katahdins and she has had success with llamas keeping the coyotes away. We are weighing which to get...or maybe we should get both.


I haven't ever had llamas....

But logically a predator type animal (dog), will do a better job than a prey type animal (llama).

Having dogs about is incredibly helpful, even if they aren't full LGD types.

If livestock can be locked up every night, then you might get by with a "pet" type dog patrolling the area during the day, as long as your stock isn't too far from your house.


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## Baymule (Oct 27, 2021)

I have never had llamas. Many people use them with great success. Just bear in mind that llamas and donkeys are prey animals. 

3 years ago there was a cougar in our area that killed a flock of goats. The owner used donkeys as guards. Against an apex predator, the donkeys only had to be faster than the goats. 

The cougar was on property right next to ours one night, our dogs were going nuts. The cougar hung around 3 weeks, was heard screaming by people in our area. It was close to us several times, but did not come our property. 

Predators want a meal they don't have to fight for. If my dogs get hurt, they go to the vet for care. If a predator gets hurt, they do not receive vet care. If a predator can't hunt, it goes hungry. So the cougar moved on, searching for easier prey. 

My point is, I'll take my dogs over llamas or donkeys any day.


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## chanceosunshine (Oct 28, 2021)

It makes complete sense and I'm not at all opposed to dogs. 

I assume it's easier to find a pup than trained adults. How do you go about training them? We plan to follow the sheep with chickens, so we need something that won't kill them either. 

I also heard that donkeys are dangerous for lambs at lambing time because they view newborn lambs as intruders. 




Baymule said:


> I have never had llamas. Many people use them with great success. Just bear in mind that llamas and donkeys are prey animals.
> 
> 3 years ago there was a cougar in our area that killed a flock of goats. The owner used donkeys as guards. Against an apex predator, the donkeys only had to be faster than the goats.
> 
> ...


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## Baymule (Oct 28, 2021)

Read the LGD forum. There is tons of information there. The old adage, Once a chicken killer, always a chicken killer. Just ain't true. LGDs can get carried away with playing with "squeaky toys" that flutter, squawk and make it fun. You have to stay on top of things. If you have a puppy (up to and over 2 years old) don't leave chickens out, dog out, all day while gone to work. It's not fair to the pup. 

I have a female Anatolian, Sheba, that LOVES the lambs and wants to lick them all over when born. That would result in a newborn covered in dog slobber, utterly repulsive to the ewe and she would not recognize it as her own, and would reject it. She cannot be with the ewes when lambing. My male Anatolian, Sentry, will ask to be in the barn at night sometimes and is respectful of the ewes, gives them space and doesn't try to take over the babies. 1,000% trust worthy with the newborns. Dogs also want the placenta and will eat it. 

My male Great Pyrenees, Trip decided ducks were on the menu and ate them. He snarled at me, lunged at me to protect his kill. Very important not to back down-you just lost your standing in the "pack". I picked up a tree branch off the ground and beat him with it. He stood his ground, I kept up the assault, screaming at him, he broke and ran and I chased him. Then I took his duck, LOL. This was repeated several times until I got it through my thick head that ducks weren't going to work for me. Trip is fine with chickens, but ducks are for him to eat. I got rid of the survivors. 

Don't get 2 pups at once. Then you have 2 adolescents that just want to play with each other and not learn to work. Think human teenagers. Train one at a time, up to 2 years old, then get another one. 

Read and study the LGD forum. Ask questions. You will get a variety of answers, pick what works for you and your dog. These dogs are highly intelligent, independent and will not respond like your typical dog. They are on a whole different level.


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## chanceosunshine (Oct 28, 2021)

Thank you. I will read the forum. 

From your experience, can older dogs, say Great Pyrenees, that have no guarding experience trainable to do so? I know we have a local rescue and I wouldn't mind giving one a chance at a farm life if that was a possibility, but I don't need to borrow trouble either.

I've seen many pups for sale that are already being brought up with sheep or goats. I'm assuming that would give us a better chance.

Let's say you have sheep in an electric net and you have an LGD in with them and they're being rotated every day. Following behind them, by about three days, so there is distance between them, are your flock of chickens cleaning up the pasture and also in electric netting. Is the presence of the LGD with the sheep enough to deter predators for  the chickens as well and would the electric netting protect the chickens from the LGD?

I agree that 2 pups at a time isn't the best idea, even when you're just looking for pets. 

And also, we have 6 grandsons under 4yo. Bringing the pups up with them should make for some child friendly dogs, right? Or is important to also consider one breed over another when it comes to kids?




Baymule said:


> Read the LGD forum. There is tons of information there. The old adage, Once a chicken killer, always a chicken killer. Just ain't true. LGDs can get carried away with playing with "squeaky toys" that flutter, squawk and make it fun. You have to stay on top of things. If you have a puppy (up to and over 2 years old) don't leave chickens out, dog out, all day while gone to work. It's not fair to the pup.
> 
> I have a female Anatolian, Sheba, that LOVES the lambs and wants to lick them all over when born. That would result in a newborn covered in dog slobber, utterly repulsive to the ewe and she would not recognize it as her own, and would reject it. She cannot be with the ewes when lambing. My male Anatolian, Sentry, will ask to be in the barn at night sometimes and is respectful of the ewes, gives them space and doesn't try to take over the babies. 1,000% trust worthy with the newborns. Dogs also want the placenta and will eat it.
> 
> ...


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## Baymule (Oct 28, 2021)

A lot of rescues want you to keep their precious fur babies as house dogs, steer clear of any like that. A rescue is a shot in the dark, could be the best dog you ever had, the worst or somewhere in between. Watch Craigslist or local FB for someone getting rid of their goats/sheep and their dog. Sometimes you get lucky. 

All my dogs would lay down their lives for children. They just know. 

Make fencing the outer parameter a priority with hot wire top, middle and bottom before getting a LGD. The dog could always range a  wire netting enclosure that took in the sheep and chicken pasture from outside the sheep/chicken wire net enclosure.  Then they become “his” by way of being in his pasture. As a puppy, you would want to restrict that space to keep him closer to the sheep and chickens. 

LGDs claim what’s under their feet. They claim what they see. Great Pyrenees tend to be roamers, but many LGDs will roam, given the chance. That’s why you need a good fence for them. 

Take the puppy in with sheep and chickens under supervision, spend time with him. You don’t get an instant guard dog, it takes training and time.


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## Alaskan (Oct 28, 2021)

When first married we had a Pyrenees and our first kid.

He was an excellent dog with the the baby.


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## Bruce (Oct 28, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> I've seen many pups for sale that are already being brought up with sheep or goats. I'm assuming that would give us a better chance.


If the dog is truly a trained adult LGD expect to pay a lot of money for it. If someone is selling it for a couple hundred there is a reason. The exception to that might be someone who is getting out of their farm life and wants to find a good working home for their working LGD.


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## chanceosunshine (Oct 30, 2021)

Thank you all again. 

Back to coyotes, would they be able to climb into a mobile pen made of livestock panels that's not quite five feet tall?

Sorry for being all over the place for the fencing post, just trying to choose wisely.


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## Baymule (Oct 30, 2021)

Yes. Cow panels won’t keep coyotes out, or dogs either. 

No need to apologize. If you don’t know, better to ask than have dead sheep.


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## Blue Sky (Oct 30, 2021)

Avoid Boz Kangal breed. If you consider an Anatolian shepherd get it from a reputable breeder of LGDs.


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## Alaskan (Oct 30, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> Thank you all again.
> 
> Back to coyotes, would they be able to climb into a mobile pen made of livestock panels that's not quite five feet tall?
> 
> Sorry for being all over the place for the fencing post, just trying to choose wisely.


Think very agile, very smart dog.


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## Bruce (Oct 30, 2021)

And driven by the need for food! Not quite the same as Fido who gets fed at least twice a day and gets to be picky about what he will eat.


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## Finnie (Oct 31, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> Back to coyotes, would they be able to climb into a mobile pen made of livestock panels that's not quite five feet tall?


Anyway, coyotes don’t climb, they sail effortlessly over.


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## Alaskan (Nov 1, 2021)

Finnie said:


> Anyway, coyotes don’t climb, they sail effortlessly over.


Nooooo, no wings. 

They are very good climbers.


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## Finnie (Nov 2, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> Nooooo, no wings.
> 
> They are very good climbers.


Oh,ok, I didn’t know they ever climbed. Around here they just float over fences as if they aren’t there.


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## Alaskan (Nov 2, 2021)

I 


Finnie said:


> Oh,ok, I didn’t know they ever climbed. Around here they just float over fences as if they aren’t there.


I just googled to make sure I didn't misremember.

Nope, I didn't. 

They can only jump about 3 feet, fences taller than that they must climb.

That is why electric is so good.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 4, 2021)

My neighbor saw a coyote sail over her 6' fence into her chicken yard then sail out again with a chicken in it's mouth.  From a standstill.



chanceosunshine said:


> And also, we have 6 grandsons under 4yo. Bringing the pups up with them should make for some child friendly dogs, right? Or is important to also consider one breed over another when it comes to kids?


Guardian dogs *love* *small* children and babies.  However if you plan to have lots of other visitors, or your children are not frequent visitors, you need to socialize your LGDs.  Get a puppy to introduce to your adult children, or get one of the easy going breeds.  Anatolians are not going to allow casual visitors to wander in and out.  We have deadlocks on our gates and lock up our dogs in a kennel run or the barn if we have workers on the property. Our male is more protective and we lock him up when we have a large party or BBQ with friends and family other than the immediate family to avoid any problems.  We also raised all our perimeter fences to 7' tall.  We still find the occasional dead coyote carcass inside the perimeter fence.

We had Pyrs that were easygoing although they roamed.  The surrounding 100 acres were being patrolled but while they were doing their far patrols they were not in the yard with my livestock!  Once our children were grown, not bringing home friends, and we were not 4-H leaders with frequent adult visitors, we went to Anatolians.  They are absolutely foolproof with our grandchildren.  We have 8 - ages 14 years to 7 months.  Three babies were born before getting our first Anatolian.  Other than when they are first walking and the dogs tower over them, they are completely at home with the dogs. The dogs would die before allowing anything to happen to any of us.  

Check out different breeds and different bloodlines within the breeds.  Some breeds are more sharp than others, and there is a great variation in personalities in the individual members of different breeds too.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 4, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> My neighbor saw a coyote sail over her 6' fence into her chicken yard then sail out again with a chicken in it's mouth.  From a standstill.
> 
> 
> Guardian dogs *love* *small* children and babies.  However if you plan to have lots of other visitors, or your children are not frequent visitors, you need to socialize your LGDs.  Get a puppy to introduce to your adult children, or get one of the easy going breeds.  Anatolians are not going to allow casual visitors to wander in and out.  We have deadlocks on our gates and lock up our dogs in a kennel run or the barn if we have workers on the property. Our male is more protective and we lock him up when we have a large party or BBQ with friends and family other than the immediate family to avoid any problems.  We also raised all our perimeter fences to 7' tall.  We still find the occasional dead coyote carcass inside the perimeter fence.
> ...


Are Pyrs able to jump a 4' fence? I like the idea of a fiercely protective breed but I sure can't afford to have one take a neighbor out. Are they more likely to attack right away or do they give fair warning? I have some neighbors I'd like to be dissuaded from being on the property but I don't want them maimed. 
Will doing a search for "easy going breeds" in the LGD area bare results?


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## Bruce (Nov 4, 2021)

Jump? No, climb? Easily.


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## Alaskan (Nov 4, 2021)

My Pyrenees was easily contained,  @Baymule had a difficult to contain Pyrenees. 

 

I loved our Pyrenees,  he was super sweet with the baby and kept all "evil things " squirrels,  birds, from our back yard.


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## Blue Sky (Nov 4, 2021)

I feel like I need to expand on my opinion about Boz Kangals. An article from the Kangal Dog of America homepage ( I don’t see it there now) described BKs as a breed invented in Turkey a few years ago to take advantage of the growing market for LGDs. 
Unfortunately other Turkish breeds were intermingled with the LGDs. There have been problems with certain Anatolian bloodlines since, especially regarding aggression. Be very careful about where you get an Anatolian Shepherd.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 4, 2021)

Blue Sky said:


> I feel like I need to expand on my opinion about Boz Kangals. An article from the Kangal Dog of America homepage ( I don’t see it there now) described BKs as a breed invented in Turkey a few years ago to take advantage of the growing market for LGDs.
> Unfortunately other Turkish breeds were intermingled with the LGDs. There have been problems with certain Anatolian bloodlines since, especially regarding aggression. Be very careful about where you get an Anatolian Shepherd.


Thank you for expounding. 
I started reading the LGD forum and read about the recommended book, “Livestock Guardian Dogs”. I downloaded and read the sample from Amazon and will be ordering it. 
Hopefully it will give us good guidance on what and how to choose the right breed for us.


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## Blue Sky (Nov 4, 2021)

A good Anatolian is worth its weight in any precious substance. In fact IS precious. Just do your homework. Sorry I do go on.  Is that a dead horse?


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## Ridgetop (Nov 4, 2021)

No it is always good to discuss extensively.  

What is vital to remember is not only are there differences between the different breeds and how they guard, but that each individual of each breed is different.  The individual pup is different from it's siblings just like members of your own family.  This is even more important when you realize that all those pups from the litter do not stay with one person for training. They are sold as pups to different owners with different personalities and different levels of training knowledge.  Some dogs are given no training since some novice LGD owner are told that the pup can be tossed into the field and will "instinctively do the job".

Training is essential for LGDs since they do not respond to obedience work like normal dogs.  However, the training they require is not the same as the average house or ranch dog.  Several commands are necessary:

Come -


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## Ridgetop (Nov 4, 2021)

Sorry, to continue -
The commands
*Come *-                      Teaching the "come" command is essential but remember that if the LGD believes that the far pasture harbors danger, he or she will ignore your command even when it is for his dinner bowl.  
*Heel* -                         Not happening - although you can (and must) teach the dog to walk on lead.  These are very powerful dogs and when the dog is off property and on lead you need to be vigilant that something does not trigger the "protect" action.  A sudden lunge from even a small LGD of 110 lbs. can pull you off balance.  A sudden charge from a 160 lbs. dog in full protect mode is almost impossible to control unless you are braced and ready.  Control is essential.
*Stay* -                           Never going to be reliable although you can teach the dog to remain in one place for a few minutes.
*Back off* -                     Very important and valuable command to tech since there will be a time when you want the dog to back away - from a lamb or kid, from another dog, from the door, etc.  
*Leave it *-                      Another good command that will come in handy.

One thing we had to learn is that these dogs are accustomed to having their flocks in a certain place.  Due to the steep layout of our current place it is difficult to move our sheep from the main pen to lambing jugs, breeding pen, separate out rams and move them to the breeding pen, etc.  Apparently they think we are really stupid for allowing the sheep to "escape".   The dogs will try to put them back in their original pens as we try to move them to new quarters!   Now we find it easier on us to lock them in a lambing jug or in the house while we move the sheep around.

One thing you will not have to teach most of these massive dogs is to be calm inside the house.  Our smaller dogs were very excitable in the house while our 3 Anatolians can be inside at one time and lay quietly.   We tend to forget they are inside (after locking up the sheep) until they ask to go outside or sometimes share the %*^#*!  out of us by suddenly barking at a noise outside.  It might be a good idea to get an EKG before getting one of these dogs.  

I don't recommend rescue dogs as LGD since you don't know their history.  Since training these dogs is not always easy, more of them are ruined by ignorant owners that other breeds.  Also, poor breeders that don't test for genetic problems, or ignore temperament problems have produced a lot of bad LGDs that are not safe around livestock or sometimes even around peoples.  When you combine these poor specimens with poor trainers, the result ends up in the shelter.  Not every member of a guardian breed is suitable for livestock guarding.  If you buy a dog from a breeder, make sure that the breeder is knowledgeable about training.  You will want to rely on them for any problems that arise with your dog.  

Of our 3 Anatolians, Rika (Miss Perfect) is the brains.  She is the smallest in stature and weight at 110 lbs.  She trained the other 2 and directs them when all 3 are in pursuit of a threat.  DS1 has named her "The Brains".  She is 9 and when she goes I will be devastated.  Truly the perfect LGD and home guardian for my grandchildren.  Also sensible to distinguish a true threat.

Second is Bubba.  DS1 has named him the "Brawn".  He is the heavy artillery of the operation.  160 lbs. of muscle, he is an all around ranch guardian as well as sheep protector,  Going on for 6 now, gentle with the grandchildren, but very suspicious of strangers.  He has a sharper temperament, more typical of old style Anatolians in attitude.  Very menacing after dark when his suspicions rise towards everyone except family.

Finally, Angel.  Just turning 3 this month she has come into her full growth.  Taller than Rika but not as heavily built as the older 2, she is 125 lbs. of muscle.  She is the "foot soldier", youngest and least experience she is assigned a lot of night duty.  Devoted to the sheep she is less a home protector.  Her temperament is much softer towards people and strangers.  She loves the grandchildren too.

Three Anatolians, same bloodlines, closely related, same kennel, totally different personalities and temperaments.  Different styles of protection, different levels of aggression.  They all work as a team, communicating with each other.  A new puppy will join them next year - before Rika is too old and grouchy to train her.  Another of Erick Conard's Lucky Hit dogs.  I have been waiting for him to finally breed another litter for several years.


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## Baymule (Nov 4, 2021)

Bruce said:


> Jump? No, climb? Easily.


Sorry Bruce, but that is wrong. My male Great Pyrenees, Trip,  can Jump a 4’ fence like it’s not even there. He also jumps cow panels, doesn’t climb, he jumps.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 4, 2021)

4' fences easily jumpable by any LGD.  Pyrs also climb like cats and can squeeze themselves through a stock panel missing one wire!  Perimeter fences need to be high, but interior pen divisions can be 42" to 48" to allow the LGD to go over from pen to pen if needed.

Actually, DH and I plan to build our next interior pen fencing in TX on flat land with stiles on the corner posts so we don't have to open the gates.  My plan is to build a central alleyway large enough for a truck and trailer or the tractor to access, then have the pasture gates be 10-12' wide into the alley.  When open the gates will reach across the alleyway completely to close the alley.  It ill make moving sheep from pen to pen easier as well as loading them in the trailer.  Also will build pass thru openings for the dogs in the fencing so they can access all the pens together in case of hogs or cougar.


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## Alaskan (Nov 4, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Sorry Bruce, but that is wrong. My male Great Pyrenees, Trip,  can Jump a 4’ fence like it’s not even there. He also jumps cow panels, doesn’t climb, he jumps.


That always amazes me... .  


No idea why our Pyrenees was so easy to contain...but he was.

The only time he left the yard was when we left the gate open.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 5, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> Sorry, to continue -
> The commands
> *Come *-                      Teaching the "come" command is essential but remember that if the LGD believes that the far pasture harbors danger, he or she will ignore your command even when it is for his dinner bowl.
> *Heel* -                         Not happening - although you can (and must) teach the dog to walk on lead.  These are very powerful dogs and when the dog is off property and on lead you need to be vigilant that something does not trigger the "protect" action.  A sudden lunge from even a small LGD of 110 lbs. can pull you off balance.  A sudden charge from a 160 lbs. dog in full protect mode is almost impossible to control unless you are braced and ready.  Control is essential.
> ...


Thank you.  I read part 1 before bed and was bummed. I’m glad you were able to finish your thoughts. That’s a lot to digest.  

Doing a cursory search for LGDs didn’t bring up much that gave me confidence in finding a good breeder of any of the breeds. Hopefully I get better results when I’m more seriously looking.


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## Bruce (Nov 5, 2021)

Morgan at Goldshawfarm (youtube) has found a Maremma breeder in Cal that isn't the same bloodlines as the one he got from a breeder in Maine. As I understand it both of the breeders are the "good" kind. They assess the pups and choose one with the proper personality for the buyers needs.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 5, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> Thank you.  I read part 1 before bed and was bummed. I’m glad you were able to finish your thoughts. That’s a lot to digest.
> 
> Doing a cursory search for LGDs didn’t bring up much that gave me confidence in finding a good breeder of any of the breeds. Hopefully I get better results when I’m more seriously looking.



I don't know where you are located, for Anatolians Debra Buckner is in Mesa, Idaho, and *my favorite breeder of all time, Erick Conard, is in Leander TX*.   He has a website with lots of great articles about Anatolian LGDs that he has written over his 35 years of breeding experience and observation of these dogs  His dogs are all working dogs in rough hill country, but he has shown them and they quickly became champions.  They protect his goats from wild hogs, cougar, coyotes, and any other predator in the southern Texan hill country.

Another thing that I like about Erick is that if you have any worries about your dog's behavior, he wants you to call him immediately so he can help you understand what is going on and fix the problem before it gets out of hand.  Since buying y first Anatolian some years ago we have become very good friends, and it always a pleasure to phone him and discuss different behavior I have observed in my dogs.  Debra has good working animals and is a good trainer.  She lives in a Idaho where her dogs have to protect her sheep and goats against coyotes, cougar, foxes, and bear.  I bought my 3rd Anatolian from her - out of a bitch bred by Erick.  

Their puppies (and older dogs) are not cheap, but all breeding sires and dams have been x-rayed, and tested for genetic problems and are guaranteed.  Erick also chooses puppies for the prospective buyer based on their needs and situations.  

If you just want to learn more about LGDs look up Lucky Hit Anatolians and read Erick's articles.  They are fascinating and he continues to add to them and change them as he sees differences in training needs, etc.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 5, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> I don't know where you are located, for Anatolians Debra Buckner is in Mesa, Idaho, and *my favorite breeder of all time, Erick Conard, is in Leander TX*.   He has a website with lots of great articles about Anatolian LGDs that he has written over his 35 years of breeding experience and observation of these dogs  His dogs are all working dogs in rough hill country, but he has shown them and they quickly became champions.  They protect his goats from wild hogs, cougar, coyotes, and any other predator in the southern Texan hill country.
> 
> Another thing that I like about Erick is that if you have any worries about your dog's behavior, he wants you to call him immediately so he can help you understand what is going on and fix the problem before it gets out of hand.  Since buying y first Anatolian some years ago we have become very good friends, and it always a pleasure to phone him and discuss different behavior I have observed in my dogs.  Debra has good working animals and is a good trainer.  She lives in a Idaho where her dogs have to protect her sheep and goats against coyotes, cougar, foxes, and bear.  I bought my 3rd Anatolian from her - out of a bitch bred by Erick.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I’m in NW Ohio and moving to NW Pa. 
I did check out Erick’s website. I wish I thought we’d have our livestock by the time his pups are to be ready but I think that’s going to be a couple months too early for us. 
I do plan to read his articles though. Thank you!


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## Baymule (Nov 5, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> My plan is to build a central alleyway large enough for a truck and trailer or the tractor to access, then have the pasture gates be 10-12' wide into the alley.  When open the gates will reach across the alleyway completely to close the alley.



Great idea, but use 16’ gates. Absolutely NO 10’ gates! Too small! I used 12’ gates and a couple of 16’ gates. Sure wished I used 16’ gates everywhere. Turning from the lane into a pasture on a tractor with a 12’ gate will be a tight squeeze. If for any reason you need a truck and trailer in a pasture, then you really need the 16’ gate. Haha, BJ took out the gatepost going from the pipeline into the horse pasture. Truck and trailer, 12’ gate, plus BJ = SMASH!


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## Ridgetop (Nov 5, 2021)

Good advice!  I will use that measurement for the drive through alley too.  I also plan to have a narrow runway with gates and headlocks for working/sorting the sheep.  Scale ad turntable will go in the barn with runway leading to them.  So many plans. . . .   I wonder if I will get it done before I die?  I'm not getting younger unfortunately.  lol  Other than my mind which I often suspect is becoming more childish by the minute!


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## Baymule (Nov 6, 2021)

If the lane is only 16' wide, it might not be enough turning room. Think tractor plus bush hog, turning from lane through gate. Length of tractor and implements, swing room, etc. At the end of the lane, make a cul-de-sac for turning around. If you are wanting to use the gate to block the lane, you might have to use half a cow panel or something on the other side of the lane. Do you really have to block the lane? If you open what ever pasture gate that you want them in and that is the only open gate, the sheep will graze that pasture. Night time, when you shake a feed can at them, they will race back to the barn, no blocking the lane needed.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 6, 2021)

*Use Erick's articles for information. * Also call him during the day and talk to him about LGDs.  He is a mine of information.  He seldom breeds pups anymore, but can put you in touch with people that have his dogs, have done the appropriate testing, and whose training methods he approves, when you are ready to obtain a LGD.   Breeding puppies is a labor of love for him, not a business.  

He is worth talking to extensively just for information about LGDs, how they think and work, best ways to train, etc.  If you decide on an Anatolian he prefers to give information on the breed, training peculiarities (every breed has some), and temperaments before any prospective Anatolian buyer gets one.  He wants to make sure that an Anatolian would suit the potential owner.  Not all people are suited to Anatolians, nor are all Anatolians suited to all people.  His goal is the suitability of the dog to the owners and situation.  Erick prefers real working homes, but occasionally has a pup that would make a suitable home/family guardian.  He will conduct extensive in depth phone interviews about your willingness to learn how to train and work your LGD before making a decision to place one of his dogs with you.  He is never too busy to talk to you about any problems you are having with any of his pups or dogs and will work with you on how to train the dog properly.  However, he will take the dog back if it does not work out or you find you cannot train the dog properly.   Some breeders either are not willing to do that, or don't know how to help with training problems.

He occasionally has adult trained dogs he needs to place as well.  Some of them are pups he has taken back because the owners were unable to keep them or were not training properly.  He retrains them but since he breeds so rarely anymore he cannot keep everyone.  One of the reasons he has limited him breeding program so drastically is because he wants to keep all the dogs he produces.  LOL  I cannot say enough good things about Erick and his knowledge of the breed.  

Although we had many Pyrs over the years, the reputation of the Anatolian's sharpness f temperament made me leery of getting our first one.  The first imported Anatolians in the 60's through 80's had "sharp" temperaments.  "Sharp" is dog breeder speak for aggressive, and in some cases vicious, temperaments.  The early training of LGD ownership had owners tossing their LGDs into a large pasture range and leaving them completely alone with no human socialization.  Owners were warned that bonding with their dogs by petting them and becoming acquainted with them would lead to the dogs not doing their job through not bonding with the flock or herd.  Naturally this was ridiculous since all LGD breeds derive from canine guardians who accompanied their masters as they wandered in search of grazing.  These dogs lived with and were close companions of those early shepherds and their families.  They were guardians of both the flocks and the people from dangerous predators, both animal and human.

Since then Anatolian temperament has been softened by breeding out the more aggressive strains.  This is good in many ways since those still used in Turkey are expected to attack any danger to their flocks including human thieves.  Here that would not work due to litigious criminals who enjoy suing victims for injuries suffered during crimes.  Consequently Anatolian temperament has become much softer, and easier for today's ranchers.  However, they are still one of the sharper LGD breeds out there and if you desire strangers to be able to access your property safely you will need to socialize your puppy heavily.

Or do as we do and fence with a high perimeter with deadbolt on the gates.   Since we are somewhat secluded on a private road surrounded by 100 open acres, are technically in Los Angeles, and are gradually seeing more and more break ins in our area, we prefer to fence ourselves and our dogs in.  For the first 25 years we lived here we did not even have a lock on our doors!  Now we live behind 7' fences and locked gates.  Part of this is because of our sheep, dogs, and coyote/cougar predators.  But I don't deny that at 70 years young I appreciate the dogs and fences as a first line of defense.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 7, 2021)

This is exactly the type of breeder we would want and need. Once we have come to a decision about getting a LGD, I may just reach out and see if he thinks the Anatolian would be a good option for us. We need someone this passionate about his dogs to help us make the right decision in the end.

We are concerned about the aggressiveness of the LGD, in general. We've been weighing our decisions regarding them on all the circumstances we have to deal with, just like most people do. One of our considerations is my adult nephew that has autism. He visits the farm daily. It would be simple to just have the pup get acclimated to J-bird, but he's afraid of dogs, and his dad doesn't like dogs and his mom is "animal ignorant" even though she does like them. So, we are in a quandary right now.

Just exactly how high a fence would keep most LGDs in? And did someone recommend electric at the top?



Ridgetop said:


> *Use Erick's articles for information. * Also call him during the day and talk to him about LGDs.  He is a mine of information.  He seldom breeds pups anymore, but can put you in touch with people that have his dogs, have done the appropriate testing, and whose training methods he approves, when you are ready to obtain a LGD.   Breeding puppies is a labor of love for him, not a business.
> 
> He is worth talking to extensively just for information about LGDs, how they think and work, best ways to train, etc.  If you decide on an Anatolian he prefers to give information on the breed, training peculiarities (every breed has some), and temperaments before any prospective Anatolian buyer gets one.  He wants to make sure that an Anatolian would suit the potential owner.  Not all people are suited to Anatolians, nor are all Anatolians suited to all people.  His goal is the suitability of the dog to the owners and situation.  Erick prefers real working homes, but occasionally has a pup that would make a suitable home/family guardian.  He will conduct extensive in depth phone interviews about your willingness to learn how to train and work your LGD before making a decision to place one of his dogs with you.  He is never too busy to talk to you about any problems you are having with any of his pups or dogs and will work with you on how to train the dog properly.  However, he will take the dog back if it does not work out or you find you cannot train the dog properly.   Some breeders either are not willing to do that, or don't know how to help with training problems.
> 
> ...


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## Ridgetop (Nov 7, 2021)

The height of fence depends on where you live and what your  neighborhood is like.  Are you surrounded by open fields with other livestock (cattle) or do you live in a semi rural neighborhood or horse keeping suburb?  It also depends on how secure you want your fence to hold your dogs.  I am a fanatic about keeping my dogs on my property.  I want them here guarding my stock not guarding the neighbor's.    Also remember in the country that your LGD can be mistaken for a marauder on your neighbor's property. Loose dogs are just as destructive as coyotes and are considered predators to be shot. Back in the early LGD days (90's) one rancher bought an expensive LGD and turned him in with his sheep.  He didn't think to notify the neighbors.  That night he got a call from his neighbor telling him that he had seen a loose dog in with the sheep, but not to worry since he had shot it! 

As far s height I would not fence with any fence shorter than 6'.  However, depending on the existing fence around your property you might be able tp extend your fence higher without much trouble and expense.

First you should know that chain link is not a good fence for *any* livestock application. Horses, cattle, and larger animals will rub on the fence and stretch it out of shape.  They will lean on the posts and bend them or break them.  Sheep and goats will jump on the fence as well as rubbing on it and causing the chain link to sag and stretch out of shape.   Eventually the bottom of chain link will roll up allowing animals to enter and leave the property.   So whatever you do, do not use chain link to fence  your property.

Woven wire fencing is the best to use, high tensile if possible.  Remember to stretch the wire as tight as possible, and brace your corner posts.  Baymule has a good fence building post here on BYH.  Most 

Woven wire only comes as high as 4' or 5' though.  If you use taller posts you can add another width of wire above the first run and make a fence 6' to 7' tall.  A cheaper option is to fence the bottom 5' with woven wire and then string barbed wire or hot wires on the top bringing the fence to the 6' or 7' height.  There are lots of good inexpensive solar chargers out there for fencing.

Don't forget to secure the bottom of the fence with either barbed wire or a hot wire to prevent predators digging in or your dogs digging out.  One of our dogs (Not one of our Anatolians) was a digger and delighted in escaping from the fenced 6 acres.  What made this worse is that our land is very steep and the dog would dig out along the lower edges so we had to climb into a steep ravine to repair these holes.  After constantly filling in the holes with rocks and timbers, we finally took some old chain link and attached short lengths to the bottom of the fences on the inside, laying them a few feet inside the fences along the ground.  We covered them with dirt.  Over the years brush and grass have rooted and we have an almost dig proof fence now.  

If you get a young dog and introduce him to your autistic nephew you should not have any problem since the boy comes over every day.  Oddly enough, most dogs will identify human disabilities such as autism, mental retardation, and physical disabilities just as they identify babies and small children as needing more help and protection.

On the flip side most dogs will also identify persons that are drunk or high as dangerous since their actions and odor is not normal.

You will have to work with J-bird yourselves with the dog  Have him sit quietly in a chair while introducing him to the dog or pup.  Let the dog see that you love and care for J-bird.  If his father doesn't like dogs, and his mother is afraid of dogs, you need to do this introduction without them present  The dog will identify the father's dislike and the mother's fear as danger to you or J-bird.  In some cases if the LGD interprets the father's dislike and mother's fear as dangerous to J-bird, the dog will try to protect J-bird from his parents - or what the dog sees as their danger to the young man.

This came home to us (finally) when attempting to train Bubba (sharp tempered male Anatolian) to new lambs in the barn.  Our family was excited about these births and would all rush into the barn to check the lambs, and ewe.  This excitement convinced Bubba that something was wrong in the barn.  Since mama ewe was upset about the commotion and tried to butt Bubba through the bars of the jugs, Bubba decided that the mamas were dangerous to us and the lambs.  He would snap at them and try to drive them from their lambs.  

Naturally this caused more uproar as we al shouted at Bubba.  The louder the noise level and more upset we were getting, the more convinced he was that there was great danger in the barn.  Rika finally came into the barn and attacked Bubba, driving him out of the barn and sitting between him and the barn doors to keep him out.  The disgust on her face towards bubba was probably also directed at us too.  

Bubba's "bad" behavior at lambing time continued for several lambing cycles until one year only I bothered to go into the barn when the ewes lambed.  I noticed that Bubba was perfectly calm.    Then a ewe wasn't in the barn before lambing, she lambed early in the big pasture.  Worried, we rushed to "rescue" the lamb and mama from Bubba who was also in that pasture.  What a surprise to find him completely calm, guarding the new lamb a shirt distance as mom delivered her second lamb!  As the first lamb staggered toward mama Bubba did a short circle around all 3 to check on them and then wandered off to patrol the field.  

After considering how we had been reacting to his behavior we realized *we* were to blame.  Instead of softly talking Bubba down from his excitement at new lambs, we had escalated the situation by shouting at him until he thought he needed to protect the lambs and us from the ewes!  
  Us bad.  

Now when seeing an "odd" behavior we consider what it might be.  we usually can explain the behavior and that gives us the info we need to either redirect it or encourage it.  These dogs really think and you have to be able to interpret what they are thinking as they act.  Smarter than us sometimes!  

When you are ready for an LGD, Erick can help you find one near your location if he doesn't have a litter expected.  (Most of his pups are reserved in advance.)  He won't recommend any breeder that is not good, has poor stock, or that doesn't train properly. He is planning 3 litters between now and the end of 2022.  He is breeding that many because he has not bred any in the past few years due to ill health.  He has a waiting list of several years for his pups he has to fill!  LOL.


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## Bruce (Nov 7, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> If his father doesn't like dogs, and his mother is afraid of dogs, you need to do this introduction without them present


X2! Part of the boy's fear of dogs is likely channeling his parents reactions to them.


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## Baymule (Nov 8, 2021)

Excellent explanation @Ridgetop! I will add, in dealing with LGDs, do not expect your "normal dog" behavior. In the above situation with Bubba, Ridgetop and family threw everything they had painstakingly learned over the years out the window and put their own thoughts and emotions on Bubba's behavior. Just goes to show you, even an expert can misinterpret a LGD. No offense Ridgetop! These dogs are so smart, they keep us on our toes, just to keep up. 

Yes they do protect children. A neighbor was over here one day with her 3 year old son. She began to scold him, my dog walked between them and growled softly at her. I called him down, but she thought it was marvelous that my dog was protecting her child, even from her! 

In order to better understand your dog, think from his point of view. That will take a while to understand and I don't know if we ever fully comprehend these outstanding dogs. If you listen, they will talk to you.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 8, 2021)

So right!   These dogs are very complicated thinkers with fascinating behavior.  Bubba was a great lesson to us to always check our behavior before assuming the dog is not working right.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 9, 2021)

We’ve been researching the breeds and I think the Anatolians may be too much for us. That may well be a good conversation to have with Erick. They do sound like amazing dogs. 
If we fail our dog we could have a potentially aggressive problem on our hands. I’ve had dogs all my life and was a groomer for years, but I had a pit bull that something clicked in one day and he was a constant source of stress because he couldn’t be trusted from that point on. I thought we had done everything right with him, but something went wrong. As much as I love the breed I don’t trust myself to be a good owner for them now. 
All that being said, the Maremma looks very good to us. We’re not done researching but we’re leaning heavily in their direction since they are usually less of an aggressive breed.


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## Baymule (Nov 9, 2021)

Great Pyrenees and Maremmas are both wonderful breeds. I’ve never owned a Maremma but I understand that they don’t roam like the Great Pyrenees do. I think you will be a fine partner for a Maremma.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 9, 2021)

chanceosunshine said:


> If we fail our dog we could have a potentially aggressive problem on our hands.


That was our worry with getting our first Anatolian.  It is very important to suit the breed to both you as a family and to your neighborhood/farm situation.  Not every breed is right for everyone (just like regular pet breeds).  You are smart to shop around and investigate different breeds.  

Our first LGD was half Maremma and half Shar Planinetz.  He was very good and at 3 months drove off the big Doberman who used to poop on our front porch. At 8 months he and our old Weimaraner bitch drove off a cougar.  He also roamed but back then our fences were in bad condition and woth fewer neighbors we had a lot more coyote and cougar traffic.


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## chanceosunshine (Nov 10, 2021)

I really appreciate all the replies. You’ve all really helped me think this through. We’re hoping we can find a Maremma breeder with the same kind of passion that Erick has.


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## Legamin (Jan 21, 2022)

chanceosunshine said:


> Hi, We have about 14 acres of pasture that we want to fence in and do rotational grazing with, most likely, sheep and possibly a couple beeves, goats and maybe even Tamworth hogs at some point.
> We're considering 6 strands of very hot high tensile fencing or woven sheep and goat fencing. For the interior, we're considering electric netting or or a poly braid for the sheep.
> I've heard that very hot wire will keep the vegetation from affecting your electric fencing.
> 
> ...


I started with goats and decided to go with sheep…Fencing is something I know!  After using 14g welded wire rolled  fence around our initial pastures we felt some accomplishment….then the goats took that away.  So we went to Cattle Panels on T-posts.  This became the permanent borders for our pastures.  The goats could lean their whole body weight on it and drag themselves down the entire length of it (I think looking for weak spots) and it would not move one inch.  Job done!  Then we ended our foray into goats and decided on sheep.  Sheep do not test the fences but they are precious critters that happen to be prey animals so our perimeter fence….around the whole 10 acres….still had to keep the many hundreds of coyotes in our valley from getting into our ranch.  The one animal that the predator takes is just as likely to be the lamb which I have no investment it…or my best breeding ram that won 3rd place best of breed at nationals and cost me…..a lot.  So after much research we opted for woven wire fence. 330’ rolls of 12=1/2g 6” square weave with the top wire and two bottom wires 10g. This is heavy stuff!  It weighs 280lbs per roll and just to finish the back side of the property as yet unfenced 8 rolls..$1400.00 on sale at Tractor Supply (the very cheapest seller that week) thought it has gone up almost $60 per roll since last month (Go Brandon!).   I got so spoiled over. 5 years of fencing to have the prices never vary by more than 10% and then this last year it soared 70%.  Oh well…it’s not like we have another choice.
As far as electric fences I have bought mine through PremierOne.com as they make a really good electric net fencing for almost any animal an purpose….but I would stick to the better Gallagher Solar Fence Energizers for the highest power charge and the most reliable performance.   
We use poly braid 9 strand (high conductibility) Gallagher and it works a charm for the sheep.  A single strand 12” off the ground…right at grazing eye level is all they need to keep them in their area.  Unlike goats they couldn’t care less what color the grass is on the other side of the fence!  They are mainly interested in food and flock!


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## Legamin (Jan 21, 2022)

Alaskan said:


> I haven't ever had llamas....
> 
> But logically a predator type animal (dog), will do a better job than a prey type animal (llama).
> 
> ...


Agreed.  We researched heavily into the Llama v Dog dilemma and even considered Donkey.. It came down to a couple of things that made our decision for us. 1. Llama’s spit and kick, Dogs bark really loud, chase down and bite. 2. Llama’s add a new level of complication in nutritional needs, vet bills, finding a shearer that will shear just one llama (most sheep shearers will not touch them!) and the pasture shelters that fit the sheep….just ain’t tall enough for the llama!  So….DOG!


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