# Choosing an LGD puppy



## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

So with everything that happened to Wesson, with the Neosporosis and now the coyote attack and loses to the chicken's, we are purchasing another LGD puppy. We have Smith, who is a pyr that is more a home guardian and does not care about protecting the animals. Wesson, who does care but is not able to anymore. Kimber, 7 months old, always stays with the livestock (even when they got out of the pasture she wouldn't leave them) is shockingly calm for a puppy, and trades off sleeping and watching them with Wesson when they are both in the pasture. Kimber is amazing actually, I honestly don't know when she sleeps though I know she sleeps with (all cuddled up together) the goats and pig. She is always watching or circling. Smith and Wesson are both around 5 years old.

So I have my deposit down on a male pup. There were 3 males in the litter but one was immediately dismissed as being more interested in being with people. I am not interested in trying to get a pup who inclined in that way to switch his affections to my livestock (tried that with Smith). How much else can you tell about what the puppy will be like as an adult when they are 5-6 weeks old now? We want one to compliment Kimber, even though we wish we could find another just like her. 

One pup always sits back and watches the others. He is bossy and gets annoyed even with the bitch if he doesn't get his way. He is always thinking about things before he does them, even when he has seen that situation before. We are worried he may miss something going on out of sight (we are all hills here). 

The other option is "feisty". He is always exploring, when his siblings gang up on him he stands his ground. No fear, no hesitation. We are worried he will challenge our fencing and will be more inclined to chase chickens as a pup so would require more training (not a bad thing, just what we think). 

These are short descriptions I have from many long conversations with the breeder. Both parents are excellent working LGDs with good health and hips.


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## Bruce (Jan 9, 2017)

@Southern by choice


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2017)

How knowledgeable is your breeder?

You want to compliment the existing dog. If you have one that stays with the herd then the other needs to "go out" IOW one watcher and one patroller.
The feisty one as you call him... those things you describe does not mean he will be  more inclined to chase poultry or challenge fencing.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

She tries. But she has bought these working LGD's from a breeder I trust for the sake of breeding. If it were not for the bloodlines and my desire for a pup now I would go elsewhere. 

I know that I want to compliment Kimber. That is part of the problem. I have seen her and Wesson trading off. I am sure that she will take whichever position is needed. Believing that, either pup could work....

How much of their puppy attitude carries over? With our coyote problems we were inclined towards the feisty one. He struck us as a likely patroller. But this is the first time I have been in this situation of trying to pick the right puppy.

What have you seen from pups with these characteristics as they mature? @Southern by choice, you think the feisty one may not chase chickens or challenge the fence? Have you seen pups like this that haven't? I know offering advice in this type of situation isn't easy but I will take whatever you feel comfortable giving me.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2017)

There is just not enough info to go on.
Honestly most look at pups and describe what they think they see but may not have an idea of what they are actually seeing.
I don't know your environment either.

For me I like highly arrogant, dominant, independent dogs.   That can take different forms as a young pup. 
"fiesty" can mean a whole lot of things...

Some may think a dog is a watcher and the dog may not be a herd dog but fearful or timid... some mistake needy for social.... 
Is the breeder close to you?


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 9, 2017)

I'm with SBC - and the pups are too young to make the kind of evaluations/judgements you are of them.  My pups don't leave here now till 12 weeks of age.  I used to let them go at 8 weeks but no more - the window between 8-12 is so important for them to model after mom and the pack.  I hope you are letting them stay with the breeder longer and I hope the breeder is not pushing you to take them at 6 weeks - far too young to go.  You are thinking too much about this.  Don't be offended.  Please.  What I am saying is you are trying to micromanage and control, what the pup will/won't be/will or won't do, too much.  That is impossible to achieve.  Its not easy for some people, but learn to trust your dogs.  Trust them - assuming they are of good stock - to take the pup under their wings and bring it up and learn.  _"…..you think the feisty one may not chase chickens or challenge the fence? Have you seen pups like this that haven't?…" _- SBC has probably seen all ends of the spectrum and the middle too, like I have.  Again, don't over think this and that is what you are trying to do.  YOU will be the one giving the pup guidance and direction.  So much of this will hang on you, not just the pup, assuming they are as you say, from good stock and raised right.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 9, 2017)

I have had pups here literally choose their owners.  It has happened time and again. I mean literally leaving the pack walking up to the buyer and sitting down in front of them and staring at them and claiming them.  Once when a gal came to pick up her Pyrenean Mastiff pup the pup knew she was at the front gate before she even saw her and dashed all the way out to greet her.  The gal thought I had "trained" the pup to do that - heck NO…..  These dogs can operate on such a higher level than we know.

A 'goosebumps' story for you - gal came to pick out Spanish Mastiff pup.  She chose well. But the pup Chili Verde had a pal in the litter, a brother he stuck with and they ran together all the time.  When it came time to go, "Cinco" literally followed the customer out to my front gate - quite a jaunt - and sat down at the gate as she loaded up his brother to leave.  I said to her then, "You need to take this one too" but she demurred because she was afraid her husband would get angry.  So they get home and opposite happens he gloms on to the pup and says sure go back get another one.

So here they come.  And she comes with the first pup Chili so he can be involved in this.  And she sets her sights on a handsome black pup, all the time however, Cinco is never far from her or her first pick pup Chili.  And finally Cinco comes into my kennel house and sits down on her feet and looks up at her like HELLLLLLOOOOO????? I'm the one!  She burst into tears.  And he and the first pup Chili Verde were glued to one another.  To this day they are an inseparable team.

So what I am saying, open yourself up to listening to the pups in the litter, because one of them may have already chosen you.    And trust me it will be the one you should take, hands down, because they know more than we do!


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## TAH (Jan 9, 2017)

A little off topic but @BrendaMNgri do you mind if I PM you with some questions about the SM's?


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 9, 2017)

Sure


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

That is one of the reasons I asked. I wasn't even sure how much you could tell about the future of a pup from this age. I won't purchase a pyr again because I have one that is great and one that is not. I don't need another one like Smith (I know you breed great pyrs @Southern by choice and I mean no offense at all). With this breeding I am certain that either one I pick will turn out, especially since Kimber seems so flexible. 

The pup has to be shipped and is too far away for me to visit. Also, while I didn't get Kimber until 14 weeks and was happy about that, it was because her breeder had her with livestock. This breeder does not and I want the puppy exposed sooner. I will be getting him at 8 weeks because of this unless there is a more compelling reason for me to leave him there longer.....


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> I have had pups here literally choose their owners.  It has happened time and again. I mean literally leaving the pack walking up to the buyer and sitting down in front of them and staring at them and claiming them.  Once when a gal came to pick up her Pyrenean Mastiff pup the pup knew she was at the front gate before she even saw her and dashed all the way out to greet her.  The gal thought I had "trained" the pup to do that - heck NO…..  These dogs can operate on such a higher level than we know.
> 
> A 'goosebumps' story for you - gal came to pick out Spanish Mastiff pup.  She chose well. But the pup Chili Verde had a pal in the litter, a brother he stuck with and they ran together all the time.  When it came time to go, "Cinco" literally followed the customer out to my front gate - quite a jaunt - and sat down at the gate as she loaded up his brother to leave.  I said to her then, "You need to take this one too" but she demurred because she was afraid her husband would get angry.  So they get home and opposite happens he gloms on to the pup and says sure go back get another one.
> 
> ...



Although this has happened I try to dissuade people from the "oh the pup picked me" ideology. You ( @BrendaMNgri  ) and I may be able to see more due to experience and knowledge however MOST people and  most dogs that isn't what is happening.  If a breeder cannot evaluate a dog and the whole thing is left up to "I'll let the puppy pick me" ... well, how do I say this nicely  you can end up with a needy nutjob fearful dog, issues with separation anxiety and other issues. 


There are many observations that can be made by someone knowledgeable at 5-6 weeks, however that isn't the whole pic. None of mine go til 12 weeks and preferably longer... I like the 16 week range.
By 6 weeks I can usually tell where their strengths will be and temperament. I have only had a few dogs that really changed considerably.

Keep in mind that although I love the pack (because I have a pack) a pup raised extensively in a pack and moved onto a primarily different environment may not adjust to being a sole or 2 dog environment. This IMO is left to a good breeder to determine. On the flip side some dogs raised in a pack environment may not develop their full potential until removed from the pack.


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## TAH (Jan 9, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> Sure


Ok,
Thanks!!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> That is one of the reasons I asked. I wasn't even sure how much you could tell about the future of a pup from this age. I won't purchase a pyr again because I have one that is great and one that is not. I don't need another one like Smith (I know you breed great pyrs @Southern by choice and I mean no offense at all). With this breeding I am certain that either one I pick will turn out, especially since Kimber seems so flexible.
> 
> The pup has to be shipped and is too far away for me to visit. Also, while I didn't get Kimber until 14 weeks and was happy about that, it was because her breeder had her with livestock. This breeder does not and I want the puppy exposed sooner. I will be getting him at 8 weeks because of this unless there is a more compelling reason for me to leave him there longer.....



The "raised with livestock" has a broad meaning.
Some dogs are raised with livestock and no human interaction, no evaluating of strengths /weaknesses.
Some are raised with livestock and yet no corrections are given and no one watching what they are doing and a pup that has not learned any respect.

A good test for pups and to see where they truly are is to make sure they have separation times from the dam.  Some pups are great with mom around but not once they are removed. At 8 weeks this isn't really feasible as they still need mom.  

I agree about the Pyr thing. There are great pyrs and there are not great pyrs... what breed is this dog?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

I have not once stated the breed in any post because I didn't want to get angry at people who might be too opinionated.... I have seen them in action behaving as perfect LGD's quite a few times. I have seen the differences between this breed and others in the pack with them. I neither need nor want drama but I am not a push over.... Because of that I prefer to avoid sensitive areas.. But what the heck... They are Turkish Boz Shepherds and I don't want to hear anyone saying they are not a breed. (which is kind of true since they are landrace...) They come from the Mountains of Turkey while Kangals come from the plains. Anatolians are mixes of many Turkish LGD's so think of that type but without irresponsible breedings so more even temperaments FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN. Okay. I will be off for the next few hours just in case.

FYI, Kimber was raised with livestock with correction and people time and training. Do you think that with a ton of attention from the breeder and no exposure to livestock it would still be worth waiting until later? Can you expand on why? 

We feed all our LGD's in the house (we have to give Wesson his pills anyway). They all walk appropriately on a leash, sit, stay, come(when they want lol!), and know how to behave off property as well as behave with the livestock, all but Smith respect fencing. This pup will pair with Kimber as we have no other LGD anymore that can partner them. That only covers a bit of our property and some of our animals. Without more we would have to have one in each pasture to try and maximize protection, but I would worry about losing dogs. I would rather risk certain livestock at certain times so the important ones can be better protected. We will continue to add LGDs until we don't have to worry about another dog being laid up by coyotes.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> I will be off for the next few hours just in case.



  Me too!


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## Baymule (Jan 9, 2017)




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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2017)

Are you saying that these puppies are not around livestock and that the breeder doesn't have any livestock? Did I read that right? 

I doubt that anyone on BYH would jump on you for a Boz shepherd. Even if they don't agree with you they will be "nice" when they tell you.    I know ZERO about the breed so no opinion or advice.  

I have owned 5 LGDs and 4 of those were "that dog or no dog at this time" and they have all worked out, (well, one is a pup so too young to say for sure).  Good parental training can do wonders.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

@Southern by choice, are you familiar with the issues? You struck me as understanding! 

Thanks @babsbag! Yes, the breeder currently has no livestock. She is getting some but not in time for these pups. That is my main reason for wanting him asap. Also, she spoils them rotten! Steak and squash etc... I feed good quality kibble. But it is kibble. Between school and work and farm and kids I barely have time to cook for the family, I am not cooking for the dogs as well! There will be an adjustment period! Actually, some advice on smoothing the adjustment period will be helpful as well.... And thank you for understanding that we really seem to be in a time crunch. Wesson getting chewed up trying to do his job (which he is too crippled to do!) has really driven that home! 

My big hidden concern is that two really isn't enough as much as we have expanded.... 

And as a side note, I had a hard day at the clinic (nasty mean great dane... and more) and I really didn't need to come out preemptively defensive. Sorry guys!


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2017)

@dejavoodoo114  I have seen some FB groups where they will eat you alive over the littlest things, BYH isn't one of those places but no explanation or apology needed. 

I too would take the dog ASAP if you are set on one of these pups. It is a shame that there is no livestock in the picture. This baffles me a little...like a puppy mill for LGDs? Are you sure you want one of these pups? You said that the parents were working dogs? Still strange to me...I am rambling, trying to mull this over in my mind. I am sure that this is not an easy breed to find, but an LGD pup without livestock in my mind is a little bothersome, hope that the genetic instinct is STRONG.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

@babsbag, thanks again. Yes the parents are working dogs. Like Kimber, the mother was imported from Turkey. I am in contact with the breeder in Turkey. He goes to the shepherds and finds good lines, breeds them, gives the pups to different shepherds to test, then breeds the best. Kimber's sire is still guarding goats in Turkey while her mom is guarding sheep in the US. Same with this girl, she was imported pregnant from good working stock. If I didn't know the background.... yes I would be MUCH more concerned. As it is, I want livestock exposure asap. And yes, I fear it may become a "puppy mill" for LGD's... We will have to see. If she crosses the line she wont get any recommendations from us (and MANY others) and wont be trusted... But the bloodlines.....  How much can a puppy be ruined in 8 weeks? That was a serious question...


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2017)

OK, now that I see a little more background it makes more sense. You already own a Boz Shepherd? I went and Googled them, beautiful dogs.  I can't help you with the original question, I was just curious about the breeding. Good luck and be sure and let us know what you decide and we will need pictures.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

Yes, my 7 month old is a Boz as well. They are more beautiful when working!  We had planned to buy a replacement pup or two this spring. Then Wesson got sick and bumped our plans ahead. So most of our research was already done. After my experience with Smith and Wesson, well, Kimber was quite the shock despite all we had seen (adults not pups) and had heard. There was no doubt we wanted another Boz after a few weeks. We waited until she was 6 months and still continued to be surprised and pleased. We were going to wait longer but..... We needed more support from our 4 legged friends!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 9, 2017)

After all this time.... I still haven't figured out how to post pictures in the thread... I searched it and went to help... This is the only online site I spend much time on and I still don't know. Usually, someone else has already said what I would have so I don't bother to post much.


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2017)

Isn't a working LGD beautiful to watch, but then so are other working dogs, like herders. But I love my LGDs, they always amaze me. I am sure that Kimber will love the help.

As far as pictures..When you are making a post choose "upload a file" from the bottom and browse to the file on your computer. Select the file you want and then select 'open' from the bottom. BYH then uploads the file and you choose thumbnail or full view, either will work and after you post a few you will see the difference; I always use 'full view'  That is one way. Or you can choose the little "picture" next to the smiley face in the menu at the top of the post and enter the URL. You would use this if you use Photobucket or something similar.  Does that help?

I think that everyone has a unique perspective on things so we always like to read what other people have to say, besides, that is how we get to know each other.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

@babsbag, how did I miss that!? It is a good thing vets are not required to be up to date on internet stuff or they would never accept me to vet school no matter how good my grades and GRE! Going back to school has been a huge learning curve for me. Not in the science (I had already done so much research they are just filling in the details for now) but in real life... I may have received a B in physics if some kids had not taken pity on me and told me about "group chat"! I just added some photos of Wesson to that thread and will add some of Kimber here... It worked!!!




 
Kimber's first day, DH and son's hands.


Second day, she grew up with piglets so they were fast friends!





Kimber learning that the livestock comes first. Wesson never did learn that... This is one of a handful of selfies I took that I may soon delete. But this lesson was very important to us. 




Kimber and our buck at the vet. She needed shots and he was getting a BSE. She wouldn't leave him even to go to the bathroom because he kept crying. I ended up having to take both of them out and then she was SO relieved to (ahem) be relieved!




Our pig Moo Shu. Reinforcing that livestock comes first.




Kimber and Smith (the useless one) on the right. Sitting and waiting for treats. Wesson can't really "sit" anymore so we just give him treats on the sly...




Kimber learning to stay... Even though she REALLY wanted treats! So did the goats for that matter. Wesson was actually hanging back for a bit on this day. Iris (the nubian) also likes treats but she just got pats... The session was great until the rest of the goats realized there were goodies on the porch! This was when we were trying to keep Wesson from moving around too much and we had everyone in the back. That could only last so long.


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## Latestarter (Jan 10, 2017)

Wow, thanks for all the pics. Kimber looks like a real sweetheart!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks! She really is a sweet heart!


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## babsbag (Jan 10, 2017)

What a beautiful dog Kimber is and LOOK AT THOSE FEET. 

I am so glad that she is being a good girl, it warms my heart to hear good stories about LGDs.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 10, 2017)

Babsbag   is asking good questions….really good 'musings' on her part - regardless of any breed.  Having said that…..

Boz Shepherd - ?? It would be unfair to the forum if I didn't openly say that I (yes, I) was one of the first people to bring the 'breed' here to this country - hmmm where's that cute icon of the guy hiding under a chair?
    "Shoot low, she's riding a Shetland!"
LOL

OK and let me repeat this, I am not  - NOT - going to embarrass you or condemn you over your choice.  I made that choice years ago, too.  So shoot me too!  

But I am also too honest, to sit here and cover up my experience with this so called 'breed', in terms of your original question about pup choosing. So bear with me and let me say what I need to say.

One of my Boz imports is listed on my website on my "In Memoriam" page - she was put down due to extreme elbow displaysia - she had the worst kind there is.  Had to have her put down - was not about to breed her and spread that around.  Another one we brought over died shortly after coming from Turkey, distemper.  Oh and right now with what is going down in Turkey in terms of major unrest, it is only through very black market off grid illegal channels that anyone can bring these dogs over at high risk.  I should know.  Middlemen, bribes, etc.  We used a guy in NJ, a Turk working in a restaurant, he was the 'fixer' for our imports and bought off Turkish border patrols and we used a gal to get them to the airport labeled as "German Shepherds" it was better than a movie - heck, it _was_ a movie   Many people involved in this 'breed', got on (and are still on) the radar of US law enforcement (just advising you) who got involved in these dogs for possible ties to dog fighting and some ARE dog fighters.  Just a heads up because that is the dog's specialty and LE was all over this like flies on poop - Customs was investigating one of the guys still involved in this.  

Also, not to be blunt, but as an ethical breeder I would be remiss if I didn't say yes the breed is being now puppy milled in the USA big time - was designed and 'invented' by a huge dog fighter in Turkey.  One of the biggest.  WTH why not name him - Akin Tulubas, and I bought from him.  With ties, through his incarcerated brother, to a terrorist cult, and was on the lam for ditching Army service for some time in Turkey - when he came to Las Vegas to meet with his dog fighting cronies he had LE on his tail like crazy.  His brother is in the pen for stabbing their dad to death.  Really wonderful crowd.  Bet the people you are buying from don't even know that…!!!  FYI I got this info from - LE connections.

Again, not dissing you.  Please don't hate me LOL….I did this too - but not going to sugar coat this either.  Because it all relates ultimately to your choice of puppies/breed etc. I want to see you succeed not fail.

Many people don't know the Boz 'breed', but give you an idea how bad the Boz is thought of by most legit breeders and breed groups - here is the Kangal Club of America's disclaimer about the 'breed' - and I'll just leave it at that - KDCA BOZ DOG STATEMENT   Oh and yes they name Akin Tulubas in this. 

I take it there was a reason you didn't try the Kangal breed (I used to own and raise them as well).  Intense breed, also many inferior specimens being put out in USA by backyard puppy millers but wow, the good ones rock!

A pup can get pretty screwed up by 8 weeks if raised in wrong manner.  OK if they are not properly raised, aren't in good health with good de-worming schedule, good food, vaccinations, good livestock time - they can really be messed up big time…I'm being generous.  ANY BREED or cross can.

OK having said this….back to your question about pup choice - this pup is not being raised around livestock, and comes from the background it does.  High risk?  Oh yeah you bet.  Can you salvage? Well probably yes, if you are a handy person with experience - and then, maybe not…..  Again - not criticizing you - been here, done this, years before you probably knew the 'breed' was around - just saying.  "Musing" much as Babs is.  The other issue I had with my female and she was a beauty, was pack issues of - guess what? - aggression and fighting. You could see it developing by the day.  What I didn't need is a take down between a fast growing huge (my female Ekin was probably twice the size of this pup you have at same age) Boz and a 250 pd Spanish Mastiff.   And you indicate there has been pack dynamic issues already and one of your dogs getting 'beat up'?  Hmmm.  Tread carefully is all I can say.  REALLY carefully.

In short - you've already committed to this 'breed' so really, you have to accept the risk here, I think, and move on as you can, carefully.  I think what I said in my first post is still very applicable to your pup choice.

But here is where you need to be honest with yourself.  Breeder support, will there be any?  Other than steak and squash (LOL!) will she be a solid source to lean on for advice when issues arise or will she just say "Gee…good question….I dunno….".  Food for thought.  Because this breed is beautiful - the good ones are anyhow - but also because of the genetics - potential bomb and a handful.  

I have not figured out how to post photos here and the one I have of the guy's arm half chewed off by a Boz in NY would probably be too graphic anyway.  I guess my last question to you would be are there other "Boz breeders" who DO raise pups in livestock you can go to instead of this one who sounds like someone raising them to make money as a cash crop?  Do they have better or more impressive track records and offer health guarantees, replacement guarantees and breeder support?  This is where I say, how much do you have to have this particular pup to where you toss caution to the wind and buy it from them over a more reliable or reputable Boz breeder?  Just askin'….don't hate me.  Again, was doing this before you were so mods, bear with my blunt delivery and questions but I hate to see people get ripped off.  I could write a book on that topic, God knows I got ripped off with the Boz and lessons learned the hard way.

  Oh yeah the old man icon he's the one I need!!!  LOL


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 10, 2017)

@dajavoodoo114 
Pretty dog 
Looks like she's shaping up into a great LGD!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 10, 2017)

Well my internet went down in the middle of filling out 6 pages of paperwork at 1am!  just before the last page was completed.
It has been out almost all day. I can't do the phone thingy- my eyes can't even see the screen to read! Anyway maybe it won't crap out on me again... 

So... let me just say... I have been in dogs for a very long time. I do not get into the my breed is better than your breed BS. I also don't get into the Anatolian/Kangal BS.
If you feel the Anatolian is 


dejavoodoo114 said:


> Anatolians are mixes of many Turkish LGD's so think of that type* but without irresponsible breedings *so more even temperaments FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN.


you can feel that way.    I was smitten with the Anatolian since 1990!  Often, and I am sure you've seen me post many times. I dissuade people from looking at the "different". With good reason. Many that are looking to get their first LGD yet have zero experience most of the  time will do better with sticking with the easier breeds. The Toli and the Pyr. I hear far too often "I want something different" some also have that resounding ring of "something BAD-A$$" when they say they want something "different". As with many breeds once AKC gets in the mix (IMO) many go downhill.  
I just roll my eyes when Kangal breeders get highly insulted that someone just called their dog an Anatolian. 

I'm sorry- just much of it gets stupid.  

As far as my question about breed. I asked simply because the Pyrenees is the absolute easiest to evaluate. Most have distinct observable traits it is easy to know their strength. 

Your Pup is beautiful! 

So, setting the other stuff aside... I was going to mention my hesitancy on getting a pup that is not coming from a livestock farm. 
Without verifying the parent stock are actually LIVESTOCK guardians IMO that is a great risk.  To take that a step further, it isn't enough to come from livestock guardian parents but they must be successful.   You would think this is a no brainer yet people actually breed dogs that FAILED as a LGD, dogs that attack livestock, can't be trusted with lambs/kids... it gets nuts.

I know this can tick some people off but I'll say it anyway- (actually I am copy pasting from my _So You Want To Breed_ article that I still have not finished or published)

_*You will see many that pay big money for dogs and those who pay little... that $ you spent either way guarantees you nothing. *There are those that have 4-6 bitches keep them bred all the time sell their dogs for big money with beautiful facilities yet guess what not one dog have they ever trained. Not one dog is safe with poultry, never with kids/lambs or during kidding/lambing... hmmm what does this tell you? Breeders that cannot evaluate do these dogs no favors. There is a difference between selecting a dog as a companion and a dog/s on 100 acres as well as a dog for the small family farm.  ....

Imports- oooooo so you have imports big deal. The reason I am a bit sarcastic about this is because most dogs imported to the US are dogs that they would never breed in their own country of origin! IOW everyone else in the world knows that Americans are “impressed” with imports and will pay BIG $ for them. I shake my head... American Pride is what those exporting dogs are looking for.*   
_
 Now, keep in mind I do not condemn imports, there are many great breeders and many great dogs imported yet there are so many that are not.

I always question dog "brokers".

If this is your passion, and the breed you choose I won't condemn you  I do agree with @BrendaMNgri  with why I would be cautious. I also feel she has a good deal of valuable info in regard to this breed. I also agree with the statement about will the breeder be there to help you. What happens if things do not work out. Will the breeder allow you to return the dog? Probably not possible.

My real question is this.... if you have a good bit of land and you are having to move dogs to protect the most valuable stock and you have a significant predator load why not spend the financial resources you do have and invest that in an already trained or started pack of dogs. 
Genetics play a part, of course, but great dogs are made as well. 
I am a big believer in the first 8 weeks being very important.  I also think a breeder should know their dogs well enough to place their dogs appropriately. IMO a really good litter will have consistent temperament.  


Now, on a personal note. Yes LGD's often end up a hot topic and there are so many issues ... truly that is why I ignore forums, fb sites and the whole lot of it when it comes to LGD's. We have had some issues here as well but for the most part this forum is generally just more supportive and ultimately I think people care about each other here. 

What age will they ship? At what point do you need to "pick".


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## Baymule (Jan 10, 2017)

Kimber is a beautiful girl.  If she grows to those feet you are going to have a Livestock Guard Elephant!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri, I noticed when you joined this group (honestly, I wasn’t exactly thrilled…) and knowing who you were my remarks were aimed at you. I had a feeling you wouldn’t be able to resist but since you were polite I will be so as well. I already knew you were one of the first to bring one in and I know what happened. Goodness, you have it on just about every LGD site out there. Google Boz and your info and story comes up. I do hope, that as far as things go on My threads, this will be the end of it. Your story is on here and mine as well.


I will start with how I found out about the Boz. As I said earlier, we were already looking at a different breed of LGD. Before Wesson got sick we had narrowed it down to Akbash, Kangals, or Anatolians (in the order that we liked them from research only online). When Wesson got sick I started contacting Akbash breeders. I spoke to 3 who seemed reasonable from their websites and had no bad reviews. After speaking to all three of them we realized the Akbash, while awesome, would in no way work for us and our farm.

On to the Kangals… I spoke to one breeder who gave me bad vibes, wasn’t going to even consider her one of the 3. Talked to another, yes they had Kangals in their pack but they no longer bred them they bred Boz. (Naturally, I asked what the heck Boz were?!) But I am rather meticulous so I found another Kangal breeder and called. Once again, they switched to Boz. I didn’t bother calling another Kangal breeder at this point. Instead I did the intense online research I had done for the other breeds on the Boz. That is when I saw your whole story, believe me, I doubt there is anything you have posted about this that I haven’t seen if it is still up.


Naturally, I was confused that these people were using “fighting dogs” as LGDs successfully. I also noticed that your stories were about what happened 10 years ago. And there are A LOT of people using Boz as LGDs successfully today. I believe you were right. That they may have been intended for dog fighting. I don’t know if law enforcement helped change their minds or what. What I do KNOW is that they really are great LGDs. I believe you are one of the reasons the Boz we have now are so much better. Without you making such a fuss things may not have changed. Akin surely had no choice but to change. Thanks for that as we now get superb dogs! (Nothing you said on here is new to me, btw)


Also, as mentioned before I went to a few farms to see the Boz in action (your story made the a must even though we drove long distances, we would have done so for one of the other breeds as well if they were close enough but HAD to for the Boz). One had Boz, Kangal, and Boz/Kangal mixes. The differences were blatantly obvious. We had been looking at Kangal/Boz crosses but after seeing them all together we decided that we would only get a pure Boz. Despite their being a little too friendly towards strangers they fit our situation the best. (Don’t get me wrong, I like the Kangals still and if our farm were set up differently we would have gone with the Kangals because (or so I have seen and been told) they are not as friendly towards strangers. I really liked how intense they were but we were worried about liability issues. I have suggested them for many people who have asked me about the Boz. People are one of the predators we must deal with here but we have our Pyr Smith to keep watch on that front. (only thing he is good for and he is good at it)


Ok, I am going to post this and answer your questions and comments about the pup we will be getting in a separate post.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

I didn’t quite understand the reference to problems within my pack… My sick pyr, Wesson, went after coyotes when he is no longer able to fight them and got chewed up pretty bad. This happened because he got away from us before we could put him back in the pasture with Kimber (Boz pup who weighs 103 compared to Wesson’s 86 lbs) and the goats.

This is a picture of Kimber tonight showing her submissiveness to Wesson after dinner.



 

This is Kimber a few weeks ago when she sniffed the cat and the cat was… well… a cat. LOL! Kimber dropped so hard we could hear her knees hit the tile… Ouch!


 


Yes, this breeder seems a bit strange. But a lot of people cook for their dogs (not me, no time)… I was wondering if this would spoil him too much. Now that I am typing this I think the best move will be to ask the breeder to gradually switch him to kibble before he arrives.


As far as breeder support, I have full support from Kimber’s breeder and health guarantee. I have the health guarantee from the male pup’s breeder as well. But for advice I would probably go to one of 5 people I know quite well who own Boz as LGDs. The reason, as previously stated, for getting this pup is timing. With Wesson chewed up by coyotes and the large loss of chickens, I want a working pack of LGDs sooner rather than later.


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## Bruce (Jan 10, 2017)

All other things aside, I would definitely see if the breeder will switch the dog you want to the kibble you use. Even if you have to provide it. The less change once he gets to you the better.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 10, 2017)

Ok, I was thinking you had a lot of land and needed  a considerable amount of dogs. I misunderstood.
I believe you know what your farm needs.

Still so sad about Wesson. Just heartbreaking.

As you know, I will support you on whatever you do. You have never struck me as whimsical or getting sucked up into the "bada$$" mentality.
I am so glad you will have support. 

Gosh if you were closer I'd lend you a few dogs to get you through. 
I am very glad to hear your Kimber is doing so well!


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## Bruce (Jan 10, 2017)

Heck @Southern by choice, East Tennessee is right next door to North Carolina!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

@Southern by choice, I just saw your post! In no way did I mean to imply anything bad about Anatolians by saying the “irresponsible” breeding part. What I meant was that there are so many breeders that I was worried about getting a good one (not like Smith..). (I am probably digging myself a bigger hole, I do better speaking than writing. I can never remember to lighten things up so I come across rude instead of serious) My husband and I have talked for the last two years about buying one of YOUR started LGDs. Worth the cost without a doubt.


Why are Pyrenees the easiest to evaluate?


I thank you for your other input. They would ship at 8 weeks unless I ask her to keep him longer. I will pick when I am ready. She is in the process of getting chickens (bigger livestock will not be there till later) but even the chickens may not come in time.


For us, getting the Boz was not about status but about the pretty even temperaments across the breed (here that I have seen). That is not saying they all have been but thinking statistically, I was impressed. Seeing them work (an 8 month old pup stayed with a sick goat when the rest of the herd moved to the other end of the 80 acres with the rest of the pack…) made up our minds. (No, that was not the only instance, just one example)


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

Could I rent some??? With kidding season coming up I am quite nervous as Kimber will be alone in the goat pasture. She will only be 10 months old in March...


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## Latestarter (Jan 10, 2017)

Thanks all for an awesome dialog! So nice that information can be shared and discussed in an adult manner. I'm rootin' for ya Deja!!  I think the reference to the problems wasn't within your pack but between the pups you are considering... But I may be wrong as well.


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## Baymule (Jan 10, 2017)

We might not always agree, but we can always be civil and polite to each other. The members of this forum are pretty darned awesome!

Kimber looks and sounds like one special dog. I will be following her progress. Maybe you can keep her and the flock closer to the barn/house during kidding.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

@Latestarter, I had not considered that she may have been referring to the pups. You may be right, thanks!

@Baymule, The only fenced area close to the house is the back yard. In most of the pics we are either in the house or in the backyard, or on the porch.... DH really doesn't like the goats there, and they don't really care for it either unless the dog door is open and they get to sneak in the house. (like the time our friends woke up in the spare bed room to a goat baaaaing at the foot of their bed!!!) Honestly though, we have been considering it. We also have stalls at the barn and a kidding stall with warming barrel in our chick coop that we built onto the back of the garage. That is where our fainting goat and her doeling currently are. I have been afraid to put them out in the pasture, fainting goat kids seem a lot smaller than Nubian kids... But it could just be because it has been a year since last kidding....

The nice part is that when the weather warms we can put all the kids in the back yard with Smith. The only animals he cares about are babies and all babies love him. They use him as a pillow, jumping board, play toy.... 

I know all but one breeding date and can extrapolate kidding dates from that. We will have them in the kidding stall earlier than we would have bothered if not for Wesson being out of commission. Better safe than sorry!

I have everything up on a chalk board in my lab (which is also where I study) so it is obvious. I will be very busy this spring with school but I have done as much as possible to ensure that things are either ready, or planned for, or already finished...


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## Baymule (Jan 10, 2017)

Haha, I can identify......we put weaned lambs in the back yard and let the sheep out in the front-we don't have a lawnmower!  We only have 8 acres and our two Great Pyrenees are lifesavers for our sheep. Coyotes are terrible here, but our sheep stay safe.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

The back yard is better than in the house though! That is where I kids usually are for the first few weeks! That is what drove my husband to build the warming barrel a few years ago. We then used the screened in porch. Then he decided that was too much a part of the house and built the kidding stall in the heated chick coop. He did it two days before last years kidding so they weren't in the house again! Talk about motivation!  Not that I complained....


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## Southern by choice (Jan 10, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> @Southern by choice, I just saw your post! In no way did I mean to imply anything bad about Anatolians by saying the “irresponsible” breeding part. What I meant was that there are so many breeders that I was worried about getting a good one (not like Smith..). (I am probably digging myself a bigger hole, I do better speaking than writing. I can never remember to lighten things up so I come across rude instead of serious) My husband and I have talked for the last two years about buying one of YOUR started LGDs. Worth the cost without a doubt.
> 
> 
> Why are Pyrenees the easiest to evaluate?
> ...





dejavoodoo114 said:


> Could I rent some??? With kidding season coming up I am quite nervous as Kimber will be alone in the goat pasture. She will only be 10 months old in March...


LOL I am a very serious person and sometimes things come across wrong when I say them... you know how it is. Typing something cannot always show the intended tone.
And, no worries... You know I just lost Callie. Even saying it is gut wrenching still.  I know what you mean when you talk about the breeding issues. Lots of Toli's that are small, foxy faces, health issues etc. That is why I thought I might look for a Kangal. Hard to find good Toli's. Yet the Kangal gene pool here is slim. I have not been too impressed. But I am limited in my being able to travel. The other issue is I LOATHE elitist and it seems you have a lot of them in the dog world... sadly the LGD world too. I think if there were less of this attitude you wouldn't have people breeding mediocre stock.  No body wants to get me started on that.   Not a LGD but one of my GSD's was absolutely one of the best in every way and I desperately wanted to breed her... she never got bred because frankly I couldn't find a male that I liked. I don't give a flying crap what titles and how high ranking... yes it MIGHT say something, it might have good genetics, it might have high scores and it also might be a freaking nutjob. As far as LGD's same- I will only breed animals I really like.  

Each breed has it's issues. 

The pyrs are just so easy to evaluate they are very cut/dry.  Even if a breeder places a dog strategically the new owner is the other part of that equation.

The very positive thing here is it sounds as though the pups you are looking at are getting a great deal of human interaction. IMO that is of greater value than being with livestock. Some leave them with livestock but never handle the dogs and hands down the human interaction is of much greater value.

As you know I believe these dogs (LGD's) are capable of great things, I don't buy into the whole 2 year BS. Physical maturity may take 2 years- maybe 3 but I am talking about other factors.
A young dog may not be able to take on predators but they should be able to be trusted with livestock. We have had 5 months old sleeping with baby goats. 8 month olds in a field while a goat is giving birth and the dog never leaves the side of the goat.. by a year old there is NO reason a dog shouldn't be there for kidding etc.  Like I said great dogs are made. I believe that comes in part from a good dog but the other a good human partner. 

You know, I am glad you posted.  When you said you hadn't wanted to, I thought you were going to say you had a pyr/pitt/aussie mix or a rottie mix for a LGD  boy was I relieved when it wasn't one of those posts!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 10, 2017)

Oh, I didn't mean that I thought Kimber would hurt the kids! Actually, she has been in the pasture since she was 16 weeks. The first 2 weeks we spent watching her in the backyard with calm goats and Wesson and pig. He schooled her... LOL she acted like she was dying she squealed so loudly!!! My husband freaked out the first time but I got there first. I let Wesson walk away and then showed DH she barely even had slober on her... Wesson is a pro, he kills (killed) all the time, he was just telling her not to play with the pig! It was so funny though. There were a few more lessons like that and she had a healthy respect for Wesson and didn't try to play with the pig anymore. Honestly, the pig is the one who started it, she really wanted to play with Kimber but Wesson said no. So we put both dogs in the pasture and that is where they have been since.
I was worried about a goat going off to kid and Kimber not being able to guard both herd and lone goat. OR WORSE, coyotes get in the pasture and Kimber is all alone.... We will be doing everything we can to ensure no more kids in the pasture (the fainting goat surprised us the week of finals in Dec...).


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## BrendaMNgri (Jan 11, 2017)

_"@BrendaMNgri, I noticed when you joined this group (honestly, I wasn’t exactly thrilled…) and knowing who you were my remarks were aimed at you."

_


I don't know who you are.  Since you admit you were purposely were aiming at me , I feel I have been more than civil on a topic that caused me much personal grief, financial loss, heartbreak (tragic losses of the dogs), backstabbing and drama….most of which you have probably only heard one side of.  I feel I was very subdued in what I said about my own experience, and in light of what I COULD SAY ….about some of the people involved in Boz - extremely reserved and gracious.  

Out of respect for this forum, I'm not going there.  So holster your pistol, please…..I ain't got time to bleed.

As for other's input on this hot topic and various comments, my musings are as follows:  

I have imported many pups of many breeds (besides the "Boz", SM and PM) here and no, they were *not *"dogs no one else would breed".  I never brought over adults, always puppies from top stock.  And importing albeit costly, is an important way to bring over pure and new lines to enhance what is here.  I strongly advocate it and have dealt only with top of the line breeders in EU.  In terms of the two breeds I specialize in, it is key to breeding the best possible.  SBC I don't think you meant your comment to be construed as that in terms of puppies, did you?

With the Boz however, what you have are people importing over lesser quality adults to breed now as Tulubas' original "boss" he worked for and source of dogs, dried up long ago.  The "Boz" I see lately are half the size of the dogs he was originally selling and breeding and appear to be of far lesser quality and highly questionable backgrounds - as if they weren't already.  

When I was getting calls from South Central Los Angeles, NYC, Watts, Downey, Vegas and Chicago about my Boz dogs it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out I was being hit up by drug dealers, gang bangers and dog fighters who frankly are the only ones I know of who can drop six grand on a puppy - most ranchers I know would laugh you off the planet if you expected them to pay that for a puppy of any breed to raise to be an LGD.  Get real.  

As for the 'breed's' "real use":  They are not considered a breed, they are considered crossbred street junk, and heavily fought in Turkey. And the Turks know it, and call it out:  
https://media.wix.com/ugd/0dd571_e1d9e32d488f4437b0310eedc1e96642.pdf  

The fruit does not fall far from the tree.  Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining…..  

Bottom line is this: people get hooked on something.  They get "the wannas".  Whether they need it or not, they just gotta have it and nothing else.  Sometimes it can be the right thing for them and sometimes not.  Sometimes, people want something so bad they lose reason, and will walk away from more sensible solutions just to get what they think they _have_ to have.  That is where I toss my hands up and walk away….been here, done this, yawn.  Next?

Here I sit trying to rehome two top of the line working, proven Spanish Mastiffs and do you think anyone is buying them?  People who are losing stock, by the week, to bear and wolves, who are shopping for puppies  to "fix" their problems….just because they think they need a puppy and/or they are too tight to invest in going grown dogs.  They don't get it.  They'll go on to lose stock.  Epic fail.  

No one can save the world. We can share our knowledge and experience and maybe some will listen and maybe most, won't.

I went down that Boz Yellow Brick Road like Dorothy, and got burned bad and am not about to hide my experiences out of "embarrassment" or shame.  I am going to hope at the least sharing it will make someone think harder and not binge buy into something without hearing both sides which definitely need to be heard.  

I'm not into creating or tolerating "safe spaces" when a dog's life and future are involved. 

I am really glad I'm not the only one here questioning the breeder's suitability.  I still think there are people who raise those dogs ON and WITH livestock who'd be a much better choice, if that is what you have to have.  I don't like the Boz guy in MT, but at least he raises his on livestock!!!!!!  Did you contact him???????  If not, why not?????

Looks are great but looks don't guard.  Remember that - the dog has to be a whole animal, solid mind, good instinct, sound, healthy, raised well, etc.  Stop basing choices on looks and size alone and care about the caliber of breeder you are buying from, health guarantees, support, what is inside of the dog, as much or more than a dog's huge feet or gee ain't it cute gushing, etc. etc. etc.    That goes for everyone, not just the OP.  Cute puppies grow up.  Stop basing important lifelong choices on "cute puppy syndrome".  
That's all on this subject for me, folks.  I'm going back up on the mountain into my meditation chamber and work on my book…..    ...


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## Bruce (Jan 11, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> When I was getting calls from South Central Los Angeles, NYC, Watts, Downey, Vegas and Chicago about my Boz dogs it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out I was being hit up by drug dealers, gang bangers and dog fighters who frankly are the only ones I know of who can drop six grand on a puppy


Hmmm, I guess things have changed! I grew up in Downey from the age of 2.5 until I moved to VT in '79. Back then no one would use Watts, South Central or East LA in the same sentence as Downey. It was basic middle class with no clear "rich" section and no "wrong side of the tracks". My mother lived in that house until she died in '03. There weren't gangs or dog fighters when I lived there. Don't know how much it changed between '79 and '03. Sad to hear.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 11, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> I have imported many pups of many breeds (besides the "Boz", SM and PM) here and no, they were *not *"dogs no one else would breed". I never brought over adults, always puppies from top stock. And importing albeit costly, is an important way to bring over pure and new lines to enhance what is here. I strongly advocate it and have dealt only with top of the line breeders in EU. In terms of the two breeds I specialize in, it is key to breeding the best possible. SBC I don't think you meant your comment to be construed as that in terms of puppies, did you?



My comment is directed at NO ONE in particular or about any particular breed or breeder. Simply put many people can get caught up in the idea that all imports are somehow superior to what may be available here in the states. I am sure you have seen people taken advantage of in this regard. Then you have some that just spent thousands and thousands of dollars importing a dog from someone they may not really know and now they have invested a substantial amount of money. For many that investment needs to be recouped. So now the dogs are bred and sometimes they are bred even if they are unsound or have serious issues and faults. Many may have good intentions and have a respectable goal but may not have the experience. Some however do not and look at this as a money maker. 



BrendaMNgri said:


> Here I sit trying to rehome two top of the line working, proven Spanish Mastiffs and do you think anyone is buying them? People who are losing stock, by the week, to bear and wolves, who are shopping for puppies  to "fix" their problems….just because they think they need a puppy and/or they are too tight to invest in going grown dogs. They don't get it. They'll go on to lose stock. Epic fail.
> 
> No one can save the world. We can share our knowledge and experience and maybe some will listen and maybe most, won't.



So true! 
You also get the "I am losing sheep/goats and the coyotes are really bad- I need a dog NOW!"  And then you find out the property, the livestock head count, and the predator activity and tell them ONE dog isn't enough and they need 3,4,5  or whatever and get ticked off because there is no way you are selling them one dog. This is the thing that gets me.   Yeah, right like I am going to raise this animal, and send it off so it can get killed in the first week. NO! Ignorant people just think you want money and can't seem to wrap their head around the fact you are not going to send out dogs that are being set up for failure or death.

The Boz as I have understood them to be, are being marketed and sold under the guise of livestock guardians yet are actually being brought in as fighting dogs. 
If there are those that are genuinely using the dogs in a legitimate way and are working to establish working dogs then that would be a positive. 
I know this is not my  thread, I do appreciate your experience and your sharing. I also appreciate the op's quest.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 21, 2017)

OK, so puppy is closer than I realized!!! Now I have to choose. For those of you with experience, what did you think of a puppy, 7 weeks, that is just as often (if not more often) playing by himself than with his siblings? He goes and plays with siblings for a bit, then moves on back to himself. Back and forth. 

The other is ALWAYS playing with siblings. What do you guys make of these two different pups?

Obviously there are other things I am taking into account but this behavioral difference confuses me so this is what I am asking about.

@Southern by choice


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## Southern by choice (Jan 21, 2017)

pm you in a bit


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## samssimonsays (Jan 21, 2017)

We kept back a pup, only 1/4 great Pyrenees, from our litter who sat and watched the puppies in her litter play rather than play with them and if they got too rough she would rush in and break them up then sit and watch again. She is more of a watcher now as well even with very little lgd in her. She had the strongest and still has the strongest lgd tendencies even more so than her father who was half pyr half Bernard. I don't know as much as others but I know what to look for for certain types such as watcher and patroller. I'd guess he's a watcher but it's hard to know with just hearing about it with that little detail for me.


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## Baymule (Jan 21, 2017)

The puppies are closer that you thought? Does this mean that you got to go see them? Did you get any pictures? You know we are picture-holics......


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 22, 2017)

Closer than I thought means that with school I lost track of the time!!!  Oops..

The pup will fly in this next weekend. The breeder is taking them to a trainer (who generally deals with Anatolians) for temperament evals on Tuesday. That is when I will decide! I do have pics but I keep trying not to look at them. And I am afraid of posting the pics because I want to be "good" and pick based on temperament not looks or size...  That is not made easy when my DH tries to get involved though... He has admitted his lack of knowledge in this area and has stepped back. We have had many conversations about the schedule and care for this puppy, which really isn't that different from the schedule we have for Kimber. Hopefully he will adhere to it!! He really is getting better... 

So, that means I will be able to post pics of the new boy on Tuesday!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 22, 2017)

Oh, one other big hurdle has to be crossed.... His NAME!

Obviously, we have chosen firearms for the names of our other LGDs since they are our protection... Smith and Wesson, and now Kimber. DH wants to name the new boy Barrett as it is the state firearm for TN. I like Vulcan still.... Great gun and it has other connotations that I just love!! Trekkie? Who me?  I have a feeling that with the 3 kids' votes factored in I will lose...  I just don't understand the prejudice! lol


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## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

I like Barrett. Anyone else want to "vote" on this one?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 22, 2017)

Ah! Already ganging up on me! And inviting others to the party!


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## babsbag (Jan 22, 2017)

You could name him Ruger or Winchester.


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## Bruce (Jan 22, 2017)

Um, how old are the kids?? You may not want to let them have a say, you'll be stuck with the name for a long time


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 22, 2017)

Good point @Bruce, that is why we narrow down the choices until we wouldn't mind either, then let them vote. DD is 18 and moved out, she may or may not get a vote. DS1 is soon to be 16 and DS2 is 9.

@babsbag, We were seriously considering both of those names. We put them off for the next males we get. We were also thinking Winchester could be male of female. Most likely it would be shortened to Win, Winnie, or Chester depending on sex. We had planned to name the next one Colt and told our friends years ago. Then one of our friends named their adopted stray Colt so... We get together too often to want confusion. The reason I pushed Ruger off is, while working at the vet clinic, I have seen A LOT of Ruger dogs. That is really the only reason...


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## NH homesteader (Jan 22, 2017)

I've met a couple dogs named Ruger also. There's always Sig (Sig Sauer) or Glock.


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## Bruce (Jan 22, 2017)

Or Uzi if he is a speedy little guy.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 22, 2017)

@Bruce That is a great name to keep in mind!!! I am really leaning toward the quieter of the two males. I have finally had the chance to see a lot of videos of all the pups. The quiet guy will play with his siblings for a bit then go off and amuse himself with a chew toy or just sit and watch or nap... The other boy seems to Always be playing, butting in etc... That is not really a bad thing. But Kimber has stepped up and is patrolling more with Wesson's issues. So I think I want one that will hang with the herd.


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## Latestarter (Jan 22, 2017)

I love my marlin 795 .22 semi auto... Maybe Marlin?


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## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

Henry makes a good rifle.....


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## Southern by choice (Jan 22, 2017)

I like to see what they are and then name them.
Rita is Rita because Babs named her and really it kinda fits her. Lately though we think her name should be Stitch- from Lilo and Stitch. You know- it is that badness level thing!


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## babsbag (Jan 22, 2017)

Actually Bab's DH named her.  He just looked at her and said she couldn't stay here for 5 days with no name and that her name was Rita.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 22, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Actually Babs DH named her.  He just looked at her and said she couldn't stay here for 5 days with no name and that her name was Rita.


Tell DH We love Rita! It is a good name for her- unique and 2 syllables! You know I have a syllables thing!


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## Beekissed (Jan 23, 2017)

Been reading with much interest!  SBC, I'm a syllable gal too...I like a single syllable so I can get their name out quick.  

My vote is for the one that plays by himself at times.  I like that kind of personality in a pup, a calm demeanor.  I've made mistakes in picking out pups in the past, as like most people I always thought the bold and adventurous ones were the most likely to succeed.  They also can be the most hard to train, as I soon found out.  

Thankfully, I learned more about it when I picked out Ben and was able to make a more informed choice in the super short amount of time I had to pick a pup.  Here were 9 squirming puppies, all white and some with short hair, some with longer...they all seemed so alike it was hard to keep track of them and watch one at a time.  One pup was a loner and when I moved towards him, he moved away and seemed fearful...he was off the list.  The rest seemed so similar and I didn't have much time to watch them, so I just sat down on the ground to see what they would do. 

They just besieged me!  I was covered in pups in two seconds, all of them jumping and licking at the same time...except for one.  He stood back, alert, tail wagging, just waiting and watching the melee...I reached through the crowd and pulled him to me.  Stood up and positioned him on his back in my arms, where he laid calmly, just watching me, paws all relaxed.  I carried him around like that as I talked to the owners and he just relaxed in my arms all the while.  I put him in the back of the truck and walked away and he sat calmly and watched me walk away, didn't make a whimper at being separated from the pack or the humans.  I liked his calm confidence through it all and I chose that one.  

Turned out it was a GREAT choice and he still has that calm, confident way about him and I can tell he's watching and thinking about things before I even ask it of him.  I think we are going to have some great stories to tell of Ben before his life is done.  

I can't wait to see pics of the new pup, I think Kindle is a lovely dog and I can't wait to  hear the name you choose.  I like Uzi and Henry, but Sig would be a really cool name too.  It also fits my one syllable nature.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 23, 2017)

@Beekissed, If only I liked Sig's....

Strange how we name our dogs differently from our goats. I still haven't submitted my registration paperwork for last spring's kids because I want to name them based on their personality and I haven't decided yet. Of course, I do like my themes, so all the goats get Gaelic names.

I am glad you mentioned the personalities though SBC... The Barrett is powerful but steady, ideally a one shot kind rifle. The M61 Vulcan is a gatling gun... Need I say more? I can definitely see how just these two names can applied to different personalities. I will talk to DH about waiting until we meet him and picking the right name.

I am also going to put these other names, Marlin and Henry, on a list for the future! Thanks guys!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 23, 2017)

@NH homesteader, I missed your post earlier. I have fired quite a few Sig's and I know they are nice but never like the feel myself...(Maybe it is my woman's hands?) And every one of the 10+ different Glocks I have fired has ejected the cartridges straight at my forehead!!! I don't think I could ever name an LGD, or any dog, Glock. I am sure that is just my bad luck but really, I wouldn't want a dog named after a firearm that is always hitting me... bad mojo... So that name is the only one on the permanent NO list. My husband likes Sig's so I am sure that name will be used in the future.


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## NH homesteader (Jan 23, 2017)

Lol! I love my Glock, I've never had that issue. Weird. But also no, you don't want your LGD taking you out in the process of defending you!

I have never shot a Sig actually, but saw yesterday that they won a huge military contract and they are a New Hampshire company so they must be doing something right. In my somewhat biased opinion!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 23, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> saw yesterday that they won a huge military contract and they are a New Hampshire company so they must be doing something right. In my somewhat biased opinion!



 That is why my husband keeps pushing for Barrett. It is the TN state firearm. He said we should support our new state... 

In other news... I figured out how to quote someone!!! It only took me 4 years...


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## dejavoodoo114 (Jan 23, 2017)

The Glock thing just seems like I would be tempting fate unnecessarily...


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## Latestarter (Jan 23, 2017)

I also had a Sako Finnbear 30.06 (gifted to son). I guess either of those except Finnbear was the model, not the manufacturer. Mauser is another old time manufacturer. Though not sure that would make such a good name... "Hey, Mauser... go kill that coyote!"


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## Beekissed (Feb 4, 2017)

Mosin Nagant....Mosin would be a GREAT name for a dog!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

Well, the pup was supposed to get here Thursday. However, the health cert revealed some troubling things. We are now considering other options. This is devastating because there are so many of these dogs without problems. I will keep you updated.


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 5, 2017)

Sorry for the setback! Hope you find the perfect dog


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## Latestarter (Feb 5, 2017)

So sorry... but better you find these things out now than later. Hope you find the perfect fit soon.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks guys. I just want clones of the temperaments of the two good dogs I have. Speaking of... I have some pics of Kimber hanging out with the pig Moo Shoo and our non-LGD pyr Smith.

As a side note, Kimber had followed the pig out of the pasture the other day. It was sooo funny! The pig got near a cow who had gotten on to our property. Kimber didn't like that at all!!! She stayed back and barked ferociously at the cow. After a little while the pig got too close to the cow and the cow charged our pig. Kimber stopped hanging back and barking and charged at this big monstrous strange creature she had not yet seen! As soon as the cow stopped going after the pig Kimber went back to a "safe" distance and continued to bark at the offender.  So funny to watch from my bathroom window with a toothbrush in my mouth completely forgetting what I was trying to do!


The following pics are not of her during the cow episode (which happened way too far away for pics). Just cute.





















Notice how Kimber gets up to investigate a disturbance and Smith does NOTHING...













I had to call Kimber to get her to look back at me. Notice the lack of interest in coming for a pet. She saw something and was watching to see if she wanted to do something about. Not interested in coming to me and being put in the house for dinner so soon.


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## Latestarter (Feb 5, 2017)

Good dog!


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## Baymule (Feb 5, 2017)

Love Kimber!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

@Baymule. ME TOO!! She was exactly what we needed! Absolutely comfortable with the livestock from the get go. Preferring their company to ours! Too bad she chose a meat animal as her favorite.... I am not looking forward to the time when the pig gets put in the freezer!


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## Baymule (Feb 5, 2017)

Maybe you can put her in the car and drive her around while the pig gets loaded in the trailer. But I would bring her back to say goodbye, over the pig just disappearing and her not knowing what happened.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

Wow, great point. I wouldn't want her escaping and wandering looking all over for the pig! I will be sure she is able to say goodbye so she doesn't look for her. Thank you for that advice!


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## Baymule (Feb 6, 2017)

Just had another thought. I loaded my pigs by backing the trailer into their pen and putting their feed and water in it. They loaded themselves. Maybe you should load the pig and feed and water him in the trailer for a few days before taking him away. Kimber would be able to see the pig, but not get in the trailer with the pig. Separate them for a week and it might be better on Kimber.


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## Bruce (Feb 7, 2017)

Sorry about the puppy but how lucky to find out BEFORE you got him rather than after. That would be a nightmare.


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## Baymule (Aug 16, 2017)

How is Kimber? And have you taken the pig to slaughter yet? Pictures?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for the reminder! Kimber is simply amazing, we love her! I will try and get updated pictures today when I get home today but I have some from the last few weeks. She has been in the backyard with the buck and kids. They curl up around her for nap time, it is adorable! Moo Shu is still alive and kicking. I keep thinking I will breed her but....

These pictures are from about a month ago when the pasture fence went down. They were taken from the second story through a screen so...

   

These pictures were a different times while in the back with the kids and buck. We tried getting better pictures but as soon as the goats see us they stand up hoping for food and love! Of course, Kimber is also immediately alert and checking us out. (I kept trying to post too many pictures...)


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 23, 2017)

This was yesterday when we took Vulcan into the vet to get neutered. He is now 8.5 months old and 132 lbs. Good grief! Kimber at 13.5 months is 127 lbs. 

        
Vulcan after I picked him up that afternoon. LOL


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## Latestarter (Aug 23, 2017)

Whoa!   Vulcan?  Where/when did HE come into the picture? You been keeping secrets girl!    What a gorgeous looking boy!  How are Smith and Wesson doing?


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 23, 2017)

Beautiful dogs!!  They are lovely. 
I love Kimber's face, reminds me of Callie. 
She is just beautiful.


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## Baymule (Aug 23, 2017)

I love Vulcan, love that brindle color! What beautiful dogs!


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 23, 2017)

I thought I was looking at Cowboy's twin!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 23, 2017)

Have I not posted anything about Vulcan??? Well, following the firearms protection theme, he was named after the Vulcan M61 gatling gun.  He was the pup that I finally chose. There were two males I was considering, one was very active constantly and the other always seemed to be off by himself. When the "dumb" (<breeder's name) one would play, he always won then went off by himself. The other was always running around playing etc... I chose "dumby" aka Vulcan. All of my pictures have been moved to permanent storage at this point so I will have to pull them off to upload them here. 

This past spring for us (read "me") was a nightmare. I was taking very difficult classes that are supposed to be taken individually with easier classes and I took them all together (Biochem, Organic chem, Repro, and Genetics). My vets said I was crazy, one month into the semester I was crazy with lack of sleep, then came kidding... throw finals in there with the spring ADGA show, Poultry Club Eggstravaganza, spring Round Up for Dairy Club, and the TN Master Small Ruminant Conference....  (<me trying to study for finals)(<Why am I trying to get into vet school??? OR Why do I have a farm WHILE trying to get into vet school with children???) 
Oh yeah, did I mention I killed my adviser/genetics/swine management professor's rooster while rooster sitting for a month?  Go figure, the mean rooster survived and the nice rooster died and she is writing a recommendation letter for vet school. 

Today my last semester started. I graduate in December. Because my youngest son was expelled last spring (yeah, that happened) from his college prep school, I am homeschooling him while going to school and during breeding season. I probably shouldn't be posting right now as tired as I am. I sank the boat on Thursday, almost poisoned (actually poisoned but realized it and took care of it) Vulcan, Smith, and Wesson on Sunday, waterline broke Monday so no water until this morning, 4 goats getting cocci treatment, friends pigs got out last night and they are mean, got the call from animal control that Vulcan escaped today and they had him... 

But, I still had Vulcan neutered yesterday (needed to be done), my son registered for homeschooling, and I made it to school on time so not too bad! 

We keep talking about renaming our farm "Murphy's Favorite" (something along those lines), or posting warning sign saying "Murphy resides here, enter at your own risk". Life is no fun without the bumps!


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 23, 2017)

What an um… adventure? Hoping things settle down soon and I hope the graduation goes well! So exciting!


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## Latestarter (Aug 23, 2017)

All I can say is:  I wish I were young again.   I need a nap just from reading that. Hope it all comes together and settles down for you soon.


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## babsbag (Aug 23, 2017)

You make my crazy life look normal. WOW!!!!  Good luck with the last semester.


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## Bruce (Aug 24, 2017)

I feel a little weird "liking" your post @dejavoodoo114 So much pain and misery! I don't guess your last semester classes will be a bit easier??


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 24, 2017)

@Goat Whisperer @Latestarter , life is interesting! 
@babsbag  You're saying that to me? I think your life is crazier than mine!
@Bruce, actually, my last semester should be easier. The classes involve a ton of hands on labs, or should I say, hands IN labs... I will be a certified in AI through Select Sires when I am finished with Advanced Repro which will be nice. I will be palpating approx. 400 cows this semester. The class will be difficult but fun and fascinating. Same with Dairy Mngmt and Swine Mgnmt. The only boring class I have will be Microbiology but I doubt that will be a difficult class. Other than having to get up so early to milk and drive a few hours to the UT dairy for labs, I am looking forward to a much better semester!


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## Bruce (Aug 24, 2017)

When you get to vet school make sure to take extra classes in goats. Seems to be a shortage of vets that WANT to deal with goats (at least as I read on this forum).


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## Latestarter (Aug 24, 2017)

Take extra classes in goats? Hell, with her practical experience, she could probably teach some herself!


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## Bruce (Aug 24, 2017)

Good enough!! And if she gets stuck on a case, she can always post here for assistance


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## babsbag (Aug 24, 2017)

I could use a dairy management class...


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## Baymule (Aug 24, 2017)

Your life is crazy right now!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 24, 2017)

Bruce said:


> Good enough!! And if she gets stuck on a case, she can always post here for assistance


 Honestly, I have learned more about goats here than at school! I have lost too many goats because of vets than I care to count! I did find out there is one vet who is a research/professor at UTCVM who own goats. I promise to attach myself to her. (Not a hard promise to make) 

@babsbag, we have only had one class so far and already I have wanted to reach out to you and talk. Well, we have had to do a lot of online research for that one class... I would love to discuss with you your operation and the differences and similarities from what I learn. Also, anything I see helpful I will happily share!


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## babsbag (Aug 24, 2017)

I feel like the State of CA does not really want me to build this dairy, it is very frustrating. No information is freely given and emails take 1-3 days to get answers. I must take a test for a pasteurizer license and while I was working on getting information on that they drop this line ...
_Your goat milk will need to be screened for inhibitor prior to processing. You can also use an approved lab to screen your milk. You will need the limited sampler/weigher license for sampling._ Say What!!!!  So come to find out today that every batch of milk must be tested for beta-lactam (antibiotics) and for me that means everyday. I can't be sending samples to a lab and wait for results everyday before I can bottle, I have no where to store milk; so I need to be my own lab. I talked to the company that makes the test...5000.00 for the equipment.   It would have been nice to know that a few years ago; my budget is pretty shot to cover an expense like that right now, but I have to do it.


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## Latestarter (Aug 25, 2017)

Sorry Babs... Welcome to big brother land.


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## babsbag (Aug 25, 2017)

This is actually a federal regulation but I think that some states must ignore it. The law states that ALL raw milk, regardless of it final use or destination, will be tested before processing. I was told by the rep. of  the company today that CA is actually pretty lax on the testing and that TEXAS is much much worse. You know, I think that we could all get together and buy an island and make a perfect country.


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## Baymule (Aug 25, 2017)

I like that idea! Maybe a volcano will erupt and make a brand new island and we can claim it first! LOL


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## Mike CHS (Aug 25, 2017)

That must be why they have to specify small farm milk sales here as "Not for human consumption".


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## babsbag (Aug 25, 2017)

Mike CHS said:


> That must be why they have to specify small farm milk sales here as "Not for human consumption".



That is probably one of the reasons but the states that allow herd shares and off the farm milk sales must just be looking the other way. I have one piece of the equipment I need to run these tests, it was part of the dairy stuff I bought. But evidently she didn't have to have proof of the tests as she had no test reader. I sent her an email to see if she had one and just missed packing it, I can hope. That is 3000.00 piece of equipment. I would be happy to buy it from her for a good price break.


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## Latestarter (Aug 25, 2017)

she has it and you can get a deal. Obviously, she'd have no further use for it.


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## Bruce (Aug 25, 2017)

For certified organic farming you have to keep records of everything you put on the land. Seems to ME that If a small dairy kept records of everything that went into their does (which may already be required for all I know) they shouldn't have to test for antibiotics every day. If you've not given them any since "day X" and have tested clean since, you shouldn't need to test until the next time you find it necessary to give antibiotics.


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## Baymule (Aug 25, 2017)

Bruce said:


> For certified organic farming you have to keep records of everything you put on the land. Seems to ME that If a small dairy kept records of everything that went into their does (which may already be required for all I know) they shouldn't have to test for antibiotics every day. If you've not given them any since "day X" and have tested clean since, you shouldn't need to test until the next time you find it necessary to give antibiotics.


But that would make sense.......


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## Bruce (Aug 25, 2017)

DOH! 
Right. Sorry.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 26, 2017)

Baymule said:


> But that would make sense.......




@babsbag, you said that the equipment to test the milk cost $5,000 and the test reader costs $3,000? So, you are looking at spending an additional $8,000 unexpectedly? What fun! If I were you I would look and see if you could find the equipment used online. I have been able to find a lot of lab and vet equipment used online for much cheaper prices. Just be sure they are still supported or you will have nothing but problems. There is a website, labx I think, that has a TON of used lab equipment for all sorts of things.


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