# Nigi doeling with diarrhea *Update*



## cyanne (Oct 12, 2009)

Well, of course it had to happen the week before her first show!  I have a 8 wk old Nigi doeling that started having the runs on Sunday.  I don't think it is cocci or anything like that.  She is on medicated feed to prevent that, plus there were some extenuating circumstances that are the more likely culprits.

First, she was getting 2 bottles per day of goat milk up until Friday when she turned 8 wks old and I dropped her to 1 bottle per day.  She has been growing like a weed and eating solid food really well so I figured it was safe to reduce the milk.  That didn't seem to phase her, but then she went to the vet on Saturday to get her health cert. for the show next weekend and that kind of stressed her out (the drive was cold and windy and everything was probably scary and strange to her).

Plus, I did her tattoo on Saturday after she got back from the vet so that didn't help any either...and it has been really rainy and just got pretty cold too.  I put a sweater and a light waterproof coat on her and she has a nice toasty dogloo to go into, but I think the combination of the cold and the stress of the tattooing and the drop in bottle feedings has triggered her poo issue.

So, I went to the feed store looking for scour-ease or something like that and they are recommending these "scour tabs" that have terramyacin (sp?).  Supposed to give 1/4 of a pill twice a day for 4 days.  Does this sound right to you guys?  I thought there was supposed to be something to help stop diarrhea, but I didn't think it was an antibiotic...

I have also been giving her a probiotic every day since Sunday, but that has not seemed to help.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

Yesterday was Sunday...or are we talking about 10/4/09 or 10/11/09?  I ask because you said she's been on probiotic "every day since Sunday," which could be 1 day or 8 days..

Ok, some questions...  

- Is she eating and drinking and acting otherwise pretty normally, or is she off feed and depressed?

- What kind of scour are we talking about...clumpy, loafy, runny, watery?  

- Is there blood or mucous in it?  

- How frequent are the bouts?

- Does it smell foul?

- What color is the scour?  

- Is she cold?  Check her ears and inside her mouth, as compared to your other goats...  

- If you pinch her upper eyelids between your fingers, do they stay 'tented' for a second, or do they snap back into place?  

As for the scour-tabs, terramycin is oxytetracycline..  I've never used tetracycline for scours, so I don't know how well it will work.  Like you said, though, it's an antibiotic, so it may only help if you're dealing with a bacterial scour..  If the scour is watery, mucousy, and/or bloody, bacteria would be my guess.  

There's another product out there called Scour-Halt which is Spectinomycin.  It's labelled for e.coli in baby pigs and it's pretty stout stuff.  "They say" (whoever _they_ are) it can halt peristalsis, and I can tell you that 6ml of the stuff spread over 2 doses, 12hrs apart will stop a full-grown doe up pretty daggone good for a couple of days afterward, even after scouring what amounted to yellow, mucousy, blood-tinged water..  If you suspect the scour to be bacterial and decide to buy some scour-halt, use it sparingly.  It's good stuff, though...kept mine alive long enough for Naxcel injectable to do its thing and allowed us to outrun what fluid she was losing with electrolyte drenches.

Hopefully trestlecreek will jump in here and tell you about SMZ-TMP, too..  I have some, but I haven't used it.  It's supposed to be really good for bacterial scours, though.  It's an antibacterial/antibiotic combo of Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim.

Until you figure something out, though, make sure she's staying hydrated and do what you can to keep her warm.  If she's not eating or drinking and looks depressed, my advice would be to get her into a heated space and start drenching with warm electrolytes..  Dehydration and shock can take one in a hurry, even if the root of the scour was fairly benign.


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## cyanne (Oct 12, 2009)

Sunday as in yesterday...yep...for some reason it feels so much longer, though.  She had a dose (5 mg) of the probios paste around 1pm yesterday and when I put out fresh feed in the evening I sprinkled the probiotic powder onto the top for her (and the other doeling she is penned with) feed.  I also sprinkled some into her milk ration this morning to make sure she got some in her in case she wasn't eating it in the feed.  Is it possible to overdose with probiotics btw?  The powder I bought also has vitamins so I was a little concerned about that.

She drank her bottle this morning with no problem and looks fine other than having the gross runny poo all over her butt.  It is not bloody or mucous-y, just plain poo-brown.  The poo is pretty runny, like pudding (eww, sorry for that image).

I will check the other things when I get home.  Will also try finding another TSC to check for scour-halt.  Will also add some electrolytes to their water just in case.

She is plenty warm since she has a sweater AND a fleece-lined coat.  I put those on after she was clipped for the show.

I am thinking it is just stress-related, but I want to stay ahead of things just in case.  She is such a gorgeous little doe and a real sweetheart.  Definitely don't want to lose her to something simple like this if I can avoid it!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

Not sure if I'd go running for scour-halt on account of pudding poo in a doeling who seems otherwise normal, provided it doesn't get worse..  Giving 5g probios directly into the mouth should be good..  I don't think you can OD one on probios, per se, but unless you're administering antibiotics, I don't think I'd do it more than once every day or two.  

So long as it doesn't get any worse and she seems normal, well hydrated, and on her feed and bottle, I don't think I'd go any further than daily probios and _maybe_ some pepto.  

I'm not sure I'd add electrolyte to the water, either, unless she's actually dehydrated..  Some goats won't drink electrolyte solutions unless they need them, and the last thing you'd want to do is to discourage her from drinking water to stay hydrated if she's scouring.

My guess would be she'll go loafy in a day or so, then back to pellets before ya know it.  If it was anything really pathogenic, I think you'd know it by now -- _but do keep an eye on her!_

In case she does turn off bad, though, I've recently come of the opinion that it's an excellent idea to have a few different oral antibiotics on hand..  Scour-halt is handy in a pinch, so if you'd already planned to go get some, I wouldn't necessarily put off the trip....I'm just saying I wouldn't necessarily _give_ Scour-Halt or any other kind of antibiotic scour med for pudding poo in an otherwise normal doeling....  Just to clarify..


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## cyanne (Oct 13, 2009)

Ugh, well I went out this morning and her diarrhea was MUCH worse.  Her whole back end was covered in it and I think I saw a little blood so I decided to go ahead and give her the scour tablets that I got at the feed store yesterday (they didn't have the scour-halt powder, just tablets).  Not sure how successful I was with the dosing.  The tablets are HUGE and say to give either 1 or 2 tablets per hundred pounds every 12 hrs for 4 days.

So, I crushed up 1/4 of a tablet and mixed it with a little milk and tried to get it down her with a drench syringe.  She spit a lot of it out, but hopefully got enough down her for the first dose.  For tonight's dose I am going to see if I can just get her to swallow the 1/4 tablet without crushing it up.  Maybe that will work better...we'll see.

She doesn't look weak or lethargic at all, but she didn't take very much milk this morning either.  Though that could have been because she was mad about the drenching with the meds.

I am going to pick up some pepto on the way home from work and put a call in to my vet to see if she has any other suggestions.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 13, 2009)

I would really suggest getting a fecal done and also make sure they check for coccidia. Coccidia lives in their gut and can rear its ugly head when an animal is under stress.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2009)

The scour-halt I got was a liquid..  It came in like about a pint bottle with a pump that administered 1ml per squeeze.  I just saw last night that my local TSC had either switched brands, or maybe the product switched names...either way, where the Scour-Halt used to be was a product called "Scour-Chek"..  Same stuff, though...spectinomycin liquid w/ a pump.

A fecal check for coccidiosis is a really good idea, too.  Shouldn't take but just a few minutes to complete at the vet's office if you collect a sample and run it in to them.

In the meantime, keep that baby hydrated and warm.


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## cyanne (Oct 13, 2009)

Is the cocci possible even if they have been fed the cocci-halt medicated goat feed?

The only problem with getting a fecal check is finding a way to get it done with my work schedule.  I might be able to get up super early and run one in to the vet before work, but that make it tough to get all of the morning farm chores done....gonna have to figure it out, I guess.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes, it is possible. Especially since she was under some extra stress. No matter what, checking for parasites is never a bad thing. She may not have coccidia but may have some other parasite. If the fecal is checked for it all, then you will know.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2009)

When mine (3 adults, so far) were scouring, the vet tech who ran fecals from them mentioned seeing what she thought were "a few" coccidia cysts and tried to jump to that conclusion..  It's a long story, but I told the vet that they were adults and had been on grain medicated with deccox..

"Not very much, though." I said, referring to the amount of grain they get.

"Well, it doesn't _take_ much..." he said, just before basically throwing out coccidiosis based on that alone and getting me several syringes of Naxcel to combat what we then agreed was most likely a bacterial gut infection.

The thing is, had I not taken the fecals in...which forced me to physically walk in the door of the vet's office...I wouldn't have gotten the Naxcel so quickly.  One of ours didn't make it, but the other did..

When another came down with the same thing about a week later, Scour-Halt stopped the scours well enough to allow us to keep up hydration with electrolyte drenches, which gave us time for Naxcel to go to work clearing the infection.  She recovered, but it was touch and go for a while.

When you go to your vet with the fecal, tell them what's going on.  Even if the fecal only serves to rule out coccidiosis, you'll be right there for them to give you a strong Rx antibiotic..


At this point, has the scour become truly watery and/or foul smelling, or is it basically the same but thinner?  Is it mucousy?

Also, has this doeling had a C/D-T vaccination?  If so, when?  If not, when was her dam vaccinated?  If the dam wasn't vaccinated in late gestation (2-3wks pre-kidding) and if the doeling's not been vaccinated, or if the doeling was vaccinated too early for her own system to produce antibodies to the vaccine, or too recently to have developed immunity, then I'd consider hitting her with some C&D Anti-toxin..  Reason being, if the above scenario is the case, this _could_ be early enterotoxemia.


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## cyanne (Oct 13, 2009)

Great, looks like I'll be getting up at the crack of dawn (or a little before) tomorrow.  The trick will be doing all of the chores really quick, then trying to hit the vet's office in that slim window after they open but before I have to leave for work. 

I really wish I had a job that was more flexible so I could take care of emergencies like this.  It's even worse right now because the poor economy has led to layoffs so we are all extra nervous about our jobs.


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## cyanne (Oct 13, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> When mine (3 adults, so far) were scouring, the vet tech who ran fecals from them mentioned seeing what she thought were "a few" coccidia cysts and tried to jump to that conclusion..  It's a long story, but I told the vet that they were adults and had been on grain medicated with deccox..
> 
> "Not very much, though." I said, referring to the amount of grain they get.
> 
> ...


The scour looks thinner than it was, but I didn't see her go to the bathroom, she didn't go when I was in the pen with her.  All I could see was that is was all over her rear and down her back legs.  It does smell pretty bad, but then I don't have a reference for that sort of thing since it smells like poo which always smells bad to me.

I am not sure if it is bloody, I thought I saw a little bit near her tail, but I wouldn't say I was 100% sure since it was a mess back there.  Not enough blood that it looked obvious, anyway.

I am going to head in to my vet in the morning to do the fecal test and see if she can give me anything stronger than the scour tablets I have now (those are just terramycin). 

When I get home I plan to dose her with some pepto, and maybe drench her with some water and electrolytes as well.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 13, 2009)

If you feed a medicated feed, don't the goats have to eat the specified amount of feed to get the proper amount of meds? If they don't, would this lead to parasites being resistant to the medicated feed?

I'm just asking because this is becoming a big deal here with alpacas. The vets in my area are getting worried that all this routine worming is going to create a resistant parasite in Ohio like they have in the south. So far we are ok but that can change easily. The vet I was talking to also said that goats are worse than alpacas with parasites becoming resistant to wormers.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2009)

cyanne said:
			
		

> The scour looks thinner than it was, but I didn't see her go to the bathroom, she didn't go when I was in the pen with her.  All I could see was that is was all over her rear and down her back legs.  It does smell pretty bad, but then I don't have a reference for that sort of thing since it smells like poo which always smells bad to me.


Whatever ours had caused their scours to smell just a bit like a parvo dog...  Not nearly as strong as parvo, but the smell was similar..  Personally, I think the distinctive parvo smell is primarily the smell of poop mixed with body fluids and mucous and blood, and isn't specific to the organism..

That's speculation, though...



			
				cyanne said:
			
		

> I am not sure if it is bloody, I thought I saw a little bit near her tail, but I wouldn't say I was 100% sure since it was a mess back there.  Not enough blood that it looked obvious, anyway.


Still...to me, if there's any blood at all, I'd be using a fairly stout injectable antibiotic.  Reason being, if there's blood mixing with poop then there could be poop mixing with blood, which puts them at risk for septicemia..  

If this is a bacterial scour, the scour medication might work against the organism directly in the gut, but since there's obviously gut irritation, there's a good chance she's not really absorbing much of it into her bloodstream, which wouldn't really help with septicemia.

Plus...it's just tetracycline.  If it's watery and mucousy with any blood at all, I'd be bringing out the big gun injectables like Naxcel or Baytril or something along those lines.



			
				cyanne said:
			
		

> I am going to head in to my vet in the morning to do the fecal test and see if she can give me anything stronger than the scour tablets I have now (those are just terramycin).
> 
> When I get home I plan to dose her with some pepto, and maybe drench her with some water and electrolytes as well.


Ask your vet about some banamine or ketofen, too..  I know that banamine is supposed to work well on scours in kids as it soothes the gut lining, but I'm not sure about ketofen..  They're both strong NSAIDS, but they're not the same med..

If ketofen will soothe the gut, I'd consider using that if the vet has it.  It's not nearly as harsh on the liver and kidneys as banamine.  If it doubt, though, hit her with a little banamine.

Once you rule out coccidiosis, b-complex shots might be of value here, too..  If she has coccidiosis, though, skip those...thiamine sorta like 'coccidia fuel.'


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## cyanne (Oct 13, 2009)

Okay, here is the latest update:

Rain seems to have completely turned around since I checked her this morning before work.  This morning her whole hiney was covered in poo and it was really runny.  I gave her a dose of the scour tabs (terremycin) crushed up and mixed with milk via a drench syringe.  

When I checked her tonight her rear end was mostly clean and there does not look like there is any new poo back there at all.  Before she had a constantly wet rear, now the only thing left is the dry stuff left over from before.  I also saw some tiny pellets in her pen that were fresh and were the right size to be hers.  The doe she shares a pen with is 8 months old so her pellets are much bigger.

I had picked up some scour-halt on my way home so I gave her a dose of that (2ml, since it said 1 ml per 10lbs) just in case.  So, the question is, if her runs have really stopped, should I continue giving the antibiotic for the full time like you usually do?  That's the usual protocol, but I had never used this one before so I want to be sure.  

Also, should I still make the run to the vet in the morning for the fecal exam?  In addition to how tough it would be to get up there in back and not be late to work, I don't want to stress her out by dragging her up there if it really isn't necessary.  If it were cocci, though, would it have responded so quickly (or at all) to the antibiotics?

I called the vet while I was at work. She said I could bring the goat in for the fecal sample and if it was a parasite thing she would give me something for that but if it isn't then she won't give me any antibiotics without doing a full exam ($45 by the way just to visually inspect her, any tests are extra).

So, would it be worth the expense and hassle, or should I maybe wait a day or so to see if her poo stays normal and then decide?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 13, 2009)

If she has not really shown signs of being ill other than the diarrhea, you could probably wait and see. Since none of us are there looking at the goat, it is really hard to say. I would do the antibiotics for the full course. Another option instead of taking the goat in to the vet is to just take a fecal sample and drop it off.

Can you make your final decision in the morning? See how she is and decide then? I would also continue with the probiotic.

Hopefully she is on the road to recovery.


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## cyanne (Oct 13, 2009)

Yeah, I think I am going to get up early and check on her tomorrow morning and decide then.  She seems pretty perky and took her evening bottle pretty enthusiastically.  No lethargy and she did not seem dehydrated.

I drenched her with some water mixed with electrolytes (about 30cc) and there are two buckets of water in their pen, one with electrolytes and one with plain water in case she does not want to drink the other one due to the taste.

I talked to the vet about bringing in a sample instead of taking the goat, but I don't have a way to get a sample other than standing around waiting and hoping for her to poo so I can get some of it.

I don't have a fecal loop thingy and I don't know of any other way to get the size of sample that the vet said she needed.  Any tips on this would be appreciated, in case I do have to take a fecal sample to my vet.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2009)

cyanne said:
			
		

> I had picked up some scour-halt on my way home so I gave her a dose of that (2ml, since it said 1 ml per 10lbs) just in case.  So, the question is, if her runs have really stopped, should I continue giving the antibiotic for the full time like you usually do?  That's the usual protocol, but I had never used this one before so I want to be sure.


Scour-Halt isn't 1ml/10lbs....it says 1ml twice daily if the baby pig is under 10lbs, and 2ml twice daily if it's over 10lbs..  

As I mentioned earlier, some folks say you can totally stop peristalsis with Scour-Halt if you're not careful, and I know first hand that two doses of 3cc's, 12hrs apart, will constipate a 130lb+ doe for a few days immediately following a profuse, watery, mucousy, blood-tinged scour.  That's also why I said that if you decided to use it, use it _sparingly._

If your doeling no longer has a foul, watery, mucousy, and possibly bloody scour that's liable to lead her to dehydration, shock, and possibly death, I would not give more Scour-Halt..  Basically, you use Scour-Halt until the scours halt -- no more.

Get some Probios in her..


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## cyanne (Oct 14, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> cyanne said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it actually says 1ml twice daily for a 10lb piglet.  It did not give instructions for over 10 lbs...even though the box said it was for piglets up to 15 lbs?  Weird.  Anyway, I estimated that she weighs well over 20lbs but I did not want to overdo it so I went with 2mls.

Do you think that would be too much?  Should I maybe drop the dose down to 1.5 ml?

As far as stopping the dose, wouldn't that be bad also?  My understanding with pretty much all antibiotics is that it is very important to do the full course of Tx or you risk creating resistant bugs.  The box says to continue for 3 to 5 days, I guess I could just do the shortest treatment course and just go for 3 days if that is safest.  Will be calling the vet later today to see what she thinks, I guess.

Already on top of the probiotics.  I have had her on them since the scours started and I put some of the powder into her milk this morning.  Will probably alternate with a dose of the paste to make sure she gets enough.
Thanks!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2009)

cyanne said:
			
		

> Yes, it actually says 1ml twice daily for a 10lb piglet.  It did not give instructions for over 10 lbs...even though the box said it was for piglets up to 15 lbs?  Weird.  Anyway, I estimated that she weighs well over 20lbs but I did not want to overdo it so I went with 2mls.
> 
> Do you think that would be too much?  Should I maybe drop the dose down to 1.5 ml?
> 
> As far as stopping the dose, wouldn't that be bad also?  My understanding with pretty much all antibiotics is that it is very important to do the full course of Tx or you risk creating resistant bugs.  The box says to continue for 3 to 5 days, I guess I could just do the shortest treatment course and just go for 3 days if that is safest.  Will be calling the vet later today to see what she thinks, I guess.


If she's no longer scouring, drop it to zero..  That's how Scour-Halt is administered in goats, based on everything I've read, everything I've heard, and my own personal experience with it.  You give up to 3ml to adults every 12hrs until the scours stop.  When _they_ stop, _you_ stop.  

Let me be very, very clear about this:

I ADVISE STRONGLY THAT YOU DO *NOT* GIVE THIS DOELING ANY MORE SCOUR-HALT.

What I'm trying desperately to convey here is that Scour-Halt is serious stuff.  It's not a "just in case" medication; it's a "Holy sh*t, if we don't get this stopped RIGHT NOW this animal is going to die" medication.

As such, it's really good to have on hand if you've got an animal that's scouring so badly that it's at risk of dehydration, shock, and death...BUT...to reiterate, there are reports of Scour-Halt stopping peristalsis in goats!  The guy who turned me on to Scour-Halt warned me himself of that very thing, saying "Be careful, though.  You can turn'em the other way with that stuff.  I've done it."  

And, please, understand this...a goat with no peristalsis is a dead goat.

Dead.

As for what the box says -- forget what the box says.

The box is meant for people treating baby pigs, and you're treating a goat.  We're WAY off label here.  Pigs aren't even ruminants, so it's a total apples to oranges comparison.  

Had you posted that she didn't appear to have scoured in a while and that there were pellets in her stall after a round of terramycin, and had you asked if you should still give the Scour-Halt "just in case," I frankly would have said NO WAY.  A perky animal with dried poo on its butt doesn't strike me as a particular risk for dehydration, shock, and subsequent death, therefore it doesn't meet my criteria for using Scour-Halt.



			
				cyanne said:
			
		

> Already on top of the probiotics.  I have had her on them since the scours started and I put some of the powder into her milk this morning.  Will probably alternate with a dose of the paste to make sure she gets enough.
> Thanks!


Good..  Keep probiotics in her, and for the love of all things holy...please...I'm begging you, do NOT give this doeling more Scour-Halt.  

If you're worried about a lingering bacterial gut infection, get a round of injectible antibiotics in her.


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## cyanne (Oct 14, 2009)

Okay, not wanting to start an argument, but I do have a couple of questions about this and would appreciate if anyone else with some experience would chime in as well.

I tried doing some research of my own on scour halt and whether you are supposed to stop when symptoms are gone or whether it is like any other antibiotic where that is a big No No and you are supposed to do the full course of treatment.  

My search brought up a whole bunch of goat health/livestock info sites and I did not find anything that says you should stop after the symptoms go away.  Most just said that you should use it as directed by the box.  

When I searched for references to scour halt and peristalsis, I found several sites that had multiple meds listed including scour halt with info for each one.  Scour halt had no notes about it possibly stopping peristalsis (on most sites), but several sites did strongly warn against using immodium AD for that reason.

I found a couple of sites which mentioned that scour halt "may halt peristaltis in adult goats" but it did not say that it would do that in babies (which seems weird to me since you would thing babies would be more sensitive than adults but that's what the sites said).  These sites did not give any directions for avoiding this side effect and did not say to stop when symptoms went away, they just mentioned the halting of peristalsis as a potential risk of using this med on adult goats.

So, what I am wondering is which is right.  I certainly don't want to kill my goat by over medicating, but I also don't want to make the mistake of stopping an antibiotic at the wrong time and having her relapse with a more resistant bug.

Would like to hear if anyone else has heard anything about scour halt stopping peristalsis and if it is a common thing or a rare complication.  Also, is it something you have experienced or read from an official source or is it just something someone told you.  I also have a call in to my vet to get her opinion.


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## cyanne (Oct 14, 2009)

At this point I am thinking I won't continue the scour halt since I talked to Sandra over at Pecan Hollow and she said they usually only give one or two doses when they use scour halt and they've been doing this a lot longer than I have.

I spoke to the vet as well and she wasn't much help because she said she'd never heard of scour halt and when she consulted the other vet with more goat experience they said they had not heard anything about scour halt having anything to do with stopping peristalsis since he thought that it was just an antibiotic so it should not have that effect.  Since they did not sound sure, I think I will take that advice with a grain of salt and stick with the breeder's advice.


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## kimmyh (Oct 14, 2009)

Scour Halt is very useful in babies, and it can stop the runs in an adult, but my question is why would you want to stop the runs? A goat with diarrhea has an issue, bacterial, toxins, something, and stopping the diarrhea will not cure the causitive factor. All sick goats here get SQ fluids, they are way more effective in keeping the goat hydrated than anything you can drench them with, and that is the only reason we all fear scours. Once the goat is hydrated we treat the cause of the scours, which may require antibiotics, worming, cocci treatments, or poison control. I treated a doe once with Scour Halt who's only problem was a piggy complex with grain, and it worked, but I have since discovered treating with CD Antitoxin is a much better way to go. I would not use Scour Halt repeatedly on a goat, it will only mask the real problem.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

Cyanne...I wasn't trying to start an argument, and I really didn't like getting snippy or harsh.  I just wanted you to stop using Scour-Halt, and I'd much rather you be angry at me and think I'm a total jerk but _not_ use more Scour-Halt than to be nice and liked and stand idly by holding my tongue while you did something -- based on my original recommendation -- that _may_ have endangered your animal.

I hope that makes sense.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Scour Halt is very useful in babies, and it can stop the runs in an adult, but my question is why would you want to stop the runs? A goat with diarrhea has an issue, bacterial, toxins, something, and stopping the diarrhea will not cure the causitive factor.


In the vast majority of cases, I agree with you, but sometimes it's just necessary to get the scour stopped so you can outrun the fluid loss and keep the goat from going into shock and dying because if you don't, you won't get a chance to treat the actual cause..  

If they're pooping big fat streams of yellow water, for instance...you just gotta get that stopped.



			
				kimmy said:
			
		

> All sick goats here get SQ fluids, they are way more effective in keeping the goat hydrated than anything you can drench them with, and that is the only reason we all fear scours. Once the goat is hydrated we treat the cause of the scours, which may require antibiotics, worming, cocci treatments, or poison control. I treated a doe once with Scour Halt who's only problem was a piggy complex with grain, and it worked, but I have since discovered treating with CD Antitoxin is a much better way to go. I would not use Scour Halt repeatedly on a goat, it will only mask the real problem.


The doe of ours who died recently got electrolytes by mouth and SQ ringer's, but the scour still outran it and she dehydrated.  Had we gotten the scour stopped more quickly, I think we could probably have saved her -- even if it meant trapping the pathogen and its toxins in the gut for a while.

To reiterate, though, I do agree with you..  If everything else is OK and you're looking at a scour that doesn't lead you to believe the animal will be dehydrated and dead within a day, I don't think Scour-Halt is something you run for immediately, and I don't think you just hit them with it over and over again..  

It'll continue to basically be a rescue med here, used only when absolutely necessary...


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## kimmyh (Oct 15, 2009)

cmjust0 All I can draw from is my personal experience, and the experiences related too me by my vet. So far, in the 12 years I have been involved in goats, I have never lost a goat to scours-be it one of mine or one brought in for treatment. But, I do things differently-each to their own. The goats that came in with repetitive sporatic diarrhea were tested and found to have E.Coli, which I treated with Quatracon 2x and Tetracycline. All survived, and were retested free of E.Coli. I do not drench liquids/electrolytes, but I force feed cooked and gound beet pulp or cooked carrots that are liquified, to keep the rumen functioning if they are off feed. I do not treat for scours perse but rather look for the cause and attack that front. 

In your case it seems the cause has been elusive, but if those goats were here, I would be tracking E.Coli treatments to keep them alive, and checking fields, feeds, and sleeping quarters. But back to the Nigi-the heart of this thread. If this was my doe I would give her CD Antitoxin, twice a day for 2-3 days (along with the SQ fluids and drenching if she was off feed), and watch to see her reaction. During those days of treatment I would have a fecal done to check for cocci and worms. If the diarrhea stopped and remained stopped 2 days after treatment ceased, I would assume she had a mild case of Entro. CD Antitoxin can not hurt the goat, and it can save their life, it will not kill off the good bacteria in the gut the way antibiotics can.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 16, 2009)

So...how's the doeling, Cyanne?  Any updates?

Hope everything's OK now...


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