# Little Rant...



## Southern by choice (Feb 13, 2015)

I got a call a few days ago from a friend. Tells me about a neighbor that just got goats and also got 2 Pyr pups.... the pups are 8 weeks.

One is already DEAD!
The second one was wondering in the road a few days later.

I don't know what happened with the first pup or how it died, the second pup has now been brought up to the backyard.  

This second pup, if it lives long enough, is already being set up for failure.
I imagine I will see this pup on craigslist in about 4-6 months.


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 13, 2015)

that is so sad!


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 13, 2015)

Boy, I'd be tempted to have that puppy "disappear" the next time it wandered off.


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## Baymule (Feb 13, 2015)

8 weeks? They are still babies! Does this idiot expect them to fight off coyotes? Oh, excuse me, I mean the survivor of this already incompetent owner.


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## bonbean01 (Feb 13, 2015)

That is so sad....but...I personally can't say too much...I am the stupid person who thought my then 3 month old Keera was secure and safe in a fortified lambing jug her first night outside in the sheep paddock...she dug out under the gate and slipped through the field fencing and only by God's grace did she not get hit crossing the road and then crossing it again coming back ... that could have been me losing that precious pup.  8 weeks old seems very young to leave the mama.  Our pup went across the road where an Anatolian was barking and I think she may have been thinking it her mama?


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## babsbag (Feb 13, 2015)

I have secure fencing but my 8 week old pups get locked up at night, even with their mama with them I don't leave them loose. I also don't let them in with the big goats at that age either, too many feet that can step on my babies.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Feb 13, 2015)

That is really sad.  Hoping if the person chooses to keep the goats, they consider getting a trained adult LGD to help the remaining pup.  We were a bit naive with our first LGD - we got her at around 9 weeks.  We were super careful about keeping her in a secure predator-proof run area next to the goats, but we made lots of mistakes with training, and because of that, I'm almost religious about recommending people who want an LGD start with either a seasoned adult LGD or a pup that is old enough it has been well-trained by its parents. 

I have a sweet older neighbor who has had coyotes run off with a large amount of his poultry the past year.  He keeps saying he wants to get a puppy, so he can raise her to be a good chicken guard by leaving her in the chicken yard from day one.  I keep trying to respectfully tell him if the coyotes are getting the chickens out of the yard, they could easily get an untrained pup, and that a young puppy shouldn't be left alone with chickens and turkeys anyway (for A LOT of reasons).  He's a seasoned old farm boy, but he's never had an LGD, and I am nowhere near an expert, but I keep praying he'll listen.  I recommended he get a young LGD that has already been trained to poultry, but I also tried to let him know most LGDs don't bond with poultry in quite the same way they do with goats and sheep.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 13, 2015)

HoneyDreameMomma said:


> That is really sad.  Hoping if the person chooses to keep the goats, they consider getting a trained adult LGD to help the remaining pup.  We were a bit naive with our first LGD - we got her at around 9 weeks.  We were super careful about keeping her in a secure predator-proof run area next to the goats, but we made lots of mistakes with training, and because of that, I'm almost religious about recommending people who want an LGD start with either a seasoned adult LGD or a pup that is old enough it has been well-trained by its parents.
> 
> I have a sweet older neighbor who has had coyotes run off with a large amount of his poultry the past year.  He keeps saying he wants to get a puppy, so he can raise her to be a good chicken guard by leaving her in the chicken yard from day one.  I keep trying to respectfully tell him if the coyotes are getting the chickens out of the yard, they could easily get an untrained pup, and that a young puppy shouldn't be left alone with chickens and turkeys anyway (for A LOT of reasons).  He's a seasoned old farm boy, but he's never had an LGD, and I am nowhere near an expert, but I keep praying he'll listen.  I recommended he get a young LGD that has already been trained to poultry, but I also tried to let him know most LGDs don't bond with poultry in quite the same way they do with goats and sheep.


Biggest issue is finding dogs that are actually REALLY started or trained. Second is not all parent stock is good at training up pups.

We do start all our pups with poultry and they remain with poultry BUT we do supervise and train them, not just turn them out willy nilly without correction.  You are very right in the fact that they can  be trained for poultry but that isn't really their "thing" so to speak. I think its silly NOT to train them to poultry because what farmer doesn't have poultry?   You are giving the neighbor great advice, hopefully he will hear you. Makes me crazy how people think a puppy can protect anything... 9-11 months yeah, but a pup... coyote bait for sure!  Neighbor may want to consider putting some geese out there... we have great guard geese. They help a great deal... but the LGD's yep they are the best at EVERYTHING!


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## alsea1 (Feb 13, 2015)

I know nothing about LGD's, however I do know that dogs of any kind need owners that have a clue about dog training in order to make it work.
I was lucky to get it thru our lab that pooping in the house was bad lol. I'll leave it at that.


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## farmhousegrace (Feb 20, 2015)

I have to say that even though it is a tragic and preventable loss there are a lot of individuals out there offering very poor advice to new/potential LGD owners. I personally started researching the LGD breeds a year before purchasing two of my own. I visited 5 different farms with working LGDs before deciding on a specific breed to fit our needs. I am a big believer in being prepared and knowledgeable about any living creature I commit to caring for. However, I have got very mixed advice on how to train a LGD. The most common was "just put the puppy in with whatever you want it to guard". A lot of people believe if it's bred for a job that no training is required. It's just born knowing what to do. If you think the remaining pup is set up for failure would you be willing to contact them and offer advice?  If they'd accept advice....


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## Southern by choice (Feb 20, 2015)

farmhousegrace said:


> I have to say that even though it is a tragic and preventable loss there are a lot of individuals out there offering very poor advice to new/potential LGD owners. I personally started researching the LGD breeds a year before purchasing two of my own. I visited 5 different farms with working LGDs before deciding on a specific breed to fit our needs. I am a big believer in being prepared and knowledgeable about any living creature I commit to caring for. However, I have got very mixed advice on how to train a LGD. The most common was "just put the puppy in with whatever you want it to guard". A lot of people believe if it's bred for a job that no training is required. It's just born knowing what to do. If you think the remaining pup is set up for failure would you be willing to contact them and offer advice?  If they'd accept advice....



You are correct. As a trainer I see the same thing all the time. I also see the LGD forums that promote much of the same... with very few people that are actually trainers. Bad advice abounds! 

I do not know the people but have allowed my friend to give out our number. Sadly many are either too stubborn, too proud, or too embarrassed  to ask for help.
We get anywhere from 6 calls a week to 6 calls a month... lambing/kidding season is usually the bulk of the calls. I will say many that ask for help genuinely want it, but the follow through and actually putting into the dog what it needs to succeed is far and few between.  Too many people breeding these dogs and do not know how to evaluate, how to work with the dog, how to advise.  When these dogs fail it generally is from poor beginnings and owner error. 

You just can't help people who don't want it.
I have a great deal of compassion when it comes to anyone having problems with their LGD... it makes me sad to hear some of the methods people use. 
On the up side... overwhelmingly the people genuinely love their dogs and encouragement goes a long way.


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