# FF Goat - Asking Questions



## Louannx (Oct 24, 2018)

Dotti, my FF goat is almost a year and half old. I am new to goats and I got her this summer beginning July, the lady said she was pregnant. I went back and forth, like is she? Is she not? Then I knew she was pregnant about 4-5 weeks ago, her body started looking preggo, she lost some of her plug and I felt the baby or babies around that time. Not long after she begin filling in her sac, slowly over the weeks. About two weeks ago, alittle more plug came out and I really noticed the baby or babies moving visually (kinda alien like LOL). The weird thing is when she is laying down, I can see and feel a baby on her left side, like on top her rumen, it is maybe a head and a foot that does this slide like thing and is a hard movement. For the last week her ligs come and go. They are not there in the morning times but are back in the evening and last few days really mushy in the evenings and now getting hard to find them. Takes me a good couple minutes. Her pin bone area is hollowed out and her sides are sunken in along her spine for the last week. No prelabor signs that I have seen. My question is to all you experienced Goat Moms, how much longer do you think she has and how many babies do you think she may be carrying?


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## mysunwolf (Oct 24, 2018)

She looks like she has quite a ways to me, maybe another month. I know she looks good and caved in, but the udder isn't quite large enough for her to be very close IMO. I have been wrong quite a bit, though, so take that with a grain of salt. Looks to be carrying 2 to me as well. Good luck, hope I am wrong and she kids much sooner!


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## Louannx (Oct 24, 2018)

Thank you so much for replying! I'm scared. LOL I have only had goats for 3-4 months, so I'm a newbie and I google everything. Can does go that much longer being sunken in like that. I mean, there is not much holding her tail up and the whole backend is just mushy. I can still feel ligs on one side after I dig a little, its like a very lose clothesline. Hope she has at least two also.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 24, 2018)

Is that brown goat a buck in there with her?
If it is, you might want to think about separate quarters.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 24, 2018)

On another note, some goats udder will literally fill up overnight.


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## Louannx (Oct 24, 2018)

Yes that buck is Jeb and he loves Dotti. But that is not her mate. He has a Buck Apron on. He has never tried to mount her, he just loves on her. I put her in her birthing pen at night (started doing that two weeks ago) so she gets rest away from the other three goats. It is attached to the goat house so she can see them and then also has a private area. All four of my goats are on my avatar.

Also I do not know if this makes a difference but the reason I keep my goats together is because they are pretty young. Dotti is the Herd Queen at 1 1/2, Jeb is the Herd Buck (Unproven) 11 months, Joli the doeling at 7 months and Obi (aka little buck - Unproven) at 5 months.

At some point I may half to separate permanently, they are year round breeders. But I would like to find a way to keep them as close to the natural order of things if that makes sense.


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## Hipshot (Oct 24, 2018)

So you have a doeling 7 months in with two bucks ? She may be bred already . Next question is why do you need two bucks? At this stage of your game one is two many.  Not new to goats my family had them when I was young and I hated them . Of course I took care of them  . Bought four  last summer and now I have 18 and headed for more . You will read about the signs they may have. And then not see a single one of the signs other than a big  belly. That the way it was with mine this spring . And then this fall well two weeks ago . I knew she was close and then there they were . What threw me was her udder was smaller this time so I thought I had more time . I  like watching the kids play and they are more curious than a cat . Hopefully I will get this down to segregated breeding program and take more of the guessing out of kidding dates . One buckling and one doeling. No names yet but the buckling will be wethered and sold at auction ,after weaning. Good luck with yours


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## Louannx (Oct 24, 2018)

Thank you, great advice. She comes in heat about every three weeks so she has not been bred. Read a lot of reviews about the buck aprons and they seem to work all these months. Do not really know why we have two bucks so that might be something the family needs to talk about. We’re not breeders just starting a farm and I realize there are a lot of things I need to learn. Just curious, you had four and now 18, was all that from breeding? That makes me nervous. Do you keep your buck separate? I read all the time that the buck broke the fence and bred the does. Just wanted to try and think of a different solution that other countries have been doing for hundreds of years. I could be wrong, you have made me rethink some things.  congrats on your kids, they are adorable.


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## Hipshot (Oct 25, 2018)

I just can't keep my hands down at the livestock sales .We got goats from a friend last summer that had to sale her goats . Two does one buck and a wether . The does kidded early this year . Two doelings and one buckling. We went to a livestock sale barn to sell the wether and came home with six Boer cross doelings . Since the two doelings from the spring kidding were from the buck that came with the does and the buckling was a wether . We took the buck and the wether as well as a fainting buck we got with a doe and two dolings ,a couple of months ago to the sale barn .We wanted the doe and doelings but not the buck but it was a package deal The fainting buck kept fainting and they wouldn't sell him at the sale barn .We had to load him back up and bring him home . I bought a doe that was listed as a skinny doe ,and she was kind of cheap  at the sale. So left with three and came home with two .That was two weeks ago. The skinny doe already looks better . We also bought a Boer buckling and three does from some folks off Craig's list that live only a few miles from us .I would have 21 but  coyotes have killed three of my does . And I have only killed one coyote but the war is on . I intend to have a lot more by this time next year and two bucks and two separate doe herds . that way I won't have to change bucks . It will just require a separate area for doeling that I want to grow out as replacements .I have a plan it will mean lots of fencing and maybe several herd dogs . Right now every thing is kept up at night and only go out when I can keep a close watch on them .Goats multiply fast my doe kidded twice this year and both times twins . Jan 15th and two weeks ago . I let her back with the buck after weaning the doelings at about four months . Breeding animals should be fit but not fat .Goats fair better if kids are weaned before rebreeding .


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## Louannx (Oct 26, 2018)

Too funny! I have heard of the fainting goats, but never seen one. My goats have a big pen and at night they get locked in the goat house because when the coyotes would start howling, my little mischievous goats would run right up to the fence. I would wonder what the heck they were doing. So I fixed that after a few months. I have cameras setup and sound and I work in my home office, so when I'm not out there i watch them to see what they are doing. Plus when I'm in town, I can pull up the app and see who is doing what. We have several different coyote packs, I play country music or sometimes have it on AM radio talk show and is set on a dusk to dawn timer, outside their barn pointed towards the woods. Coyotes think there is too much going on I guess to come close at night or the country music made them sad and they went to go look for their truck, wife and dog. HaHa , plus we have a few dogs that keep them at bay. But a lot of folks in my town lose livestock to coyotes and I keep telling them to play music but they I guess think that is crazy. My Dotti is so miserable and we are just waiting to see when she will deliver. When we got her, I thought it would be cool if she was pregnant, I didn’t realize not knowing the DD, seeing her body change and all the running to the barn at all hours would give me so much gray hair. LOL


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## Wehner Homestead (Oct 26, 2018)

She could hold out or go any time. FFs are tricky. 

Separate the bucks! The smells from delivery/fluids/etc will make the bucks bother her. Despite the aprons, she doesn’t need the added stress of being mounted. It’s also just good practice.


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## Louannx (Oct 26, 2018)

Duly noted, I have a separate large area.


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## Wehner Homestead (Oct 26, 2018)

What kind of goat is Dotti? You mentioned she’s not seasonal and she’s got draped ears so I’m curious. 

I belong to a Nigerian Dwarf Goat group on fb that has an awesome file for trouble shooting deliveries and what to expect and do for each malpresentation. If you have fb, I’ll make sure you have the group name so you can join and check it out.


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## Louannx (Oct 27, 2018)

The lady I got her from said she was a Boer. As some time went by and compared to my other goats, she just looked a little different in the head/face area.  When I posted on FB, everyone came back and said she looked like a Boer with Nubian in her. Again, I’m just going off what everyone else has said.

I realize you cannot depend on some people’s word. Kinda like the guy that told me I needed two bucks. I was going to pick up a doe and he ended up selling me my other buck. I realize he saw someone new and sucker on their forehead and offloaded his buck because he knew I already had one. I had no idea what a wether was until recently and my second buck should of been wethered. I guess this is how you learn. That second buck is still young enough to be wethered but his dad was a dappled Boer, mom was reg Boer, so he carries 1/2 dappled genes. So DH does not want to.


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## MargaretClare (Oct 31, 2018)

For what it's worth, breeding aprons are not fail-proof. Especially on such a long bodied breed as a Boer. All it takes is one lucky mount on that 7 month doeling where the apron happens to flip up over her back and you've got an oops.


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## Ridgetop (Oct 31, 2018)

The udder can fill up anywhere from several weeks in advance to the night before giving birth.  As the kids move into birthing position you might notice changes in Dotti's shape.  She doesn't look huge to me for a Boer or Boer/Nubian cross at term but Boers are deep bodied and we once had a Nubian who looked like she would single give us triplets!  Did the seller know when she was exposed to the buck or a breeding date?  5 months and 5 days is gestation period.  Based on when she was in with the buck, at least June since you bought her in July and the seller said she was bred - and what breed the buck was - Boers will breed year round, while dairy breeds have definite rutting seasons, she is probably anywhere from 4 months to 5 months along.  If she was bred in the early summer, she was probably bred to a Boer.  Boer does will also breed year round, while dairy does are also seasonal breeders.  It sounds like she is a Boer bred to a Boer buck since she was pregnant in July and is just approaching kidding in November.

Absolutely separate the doeling from the bucks now.  Keep the doeling in with Dotti to keep them both happy and keep the bucks together.  Accidents happen all the time.  Goats have gotten bred through fences that you would not think they could even see the does through!  Just read some of the sad stories about doelings bred too young on this site and you will see the wisdom in pulling her out immediately.  Buck aprons may or may not work, I don't know since I would never trust anything except celibacy to keep a buck from impregnating a doe in heat.  

Like Wehner Homestead said, the smell from birthing will make the bucks try to breed Dotti.  We had a male llama as a guardian once and as soon as the goats started kidding he was trying to breed them!  We were lucky that he tried it as soon as I moved a doe back in the milker pen from the kidding pen and I was able to drive him off and rescue the doe!  Instant trip to the vet for a little operation!  I didn't realize that the kidding smell was so close to the smell of a doe in heat!

You don't really need 2 bucks.  You will have to keep them separated from the does all the time or you won't know who the sire of your kids is.  Also as the young one matures, the 2 bucks will fight over the does as they come into estrus.  On the other hand, if your husband wants to keep both they will be company for each other in their own separate pen.  They will be stinky in rut so I would recommend that you place their pen a little farther away.  If Dotti's kids are does, you definitely don't want to keep a buck with her and the doelings.  By keeping them separated you will have to bring the buck and doe together to breed them and you will know exactly when she is bred.  This will help you determine future kidding dates.  Hopefully 7 month old doeling Joli is not bred yet.  What breed is Joli and the other bucks?

Keeping your bucks and does together may sound great and it may be done in other countries where people either don't have the option of separate pens or are in an open foraging situation.  But in those situations, the goats are not pets, and the loss of some of their animals, while regrettable, is expected and accepted as part of the herd life.


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## Ridgetop (Oct 31, 2018)

By the way, goat herds grow because we love them!  They are really fun animals!


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## Ron Bequeath (Oct 31, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Thank you, great advice. She comes in heat about every three weeks so she has not been bred. Read a lot of reviews about the buck aprons and they seem to work all these months. Do not really know why we have two bucks so that might be something the family needs to talk about. We’re not breeders just starting a farm and I realize there are a lot of things I need to learn. Just curious, you had four and now 18, was all that from breeding? That makes me nervous. Do you keep your buck separate? I read all the time that the buck broke the fence and bred the does. Just wanted to try and think of a different solution that other countries have been doing for hundreds of years. I could be wrong, you have made me rethink some things.  congrats on your kids, they are adorable.


Dealing with bucks, i may sound inhuman but in my book a good buck is a chained buck, great brush trimmers, acrage clearer, but always on a chain, with a halter, and a collar but the halter on a buck demands obedience. Although i only have 2 doe at the present i plan on trading a jersey cow for some alpine does. So will keep him busy soon. I hope. Another method I was going to try is cattle panels. You need 10 panels and set them up like two 16 x 32 foot rectangles side by side as the buck cleans one side he's move to the other and if you study it enough you can rotate every 4 to 5 weeks and always have the buck on fresh pasture. Near woods and being in the tick season thought I'd just point out a few things, every farm where deer or woods are present needs a small band of quinae fowl to clear the population, control it, or wiped it out, also walmart and pet stores sell a small hook that twists the tick off and holds it til you can kill it. Small change of subject, bot flies/warble grubs, for some funny reason since our summer was wet, very wet didn't seem to see any but warmer summers seem to have them. What I do since I'm diabetic and always have a supply if syringes if I see a warble grub near the surface on a goat or cow, I put about 10 units of alcohol in the syringe and inject it right up the bxtt of that grub, wait 3 min and with a tweezers just pull that gross bad boy out. The alcohol seems to stun him dead, and he then releases. If smashed in the host can cause poisoning, and infection, and if caught early won't travel to the innards of the host. You can use the same syringe all summer just clean with alcohol and store in clean container


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## Louannx (Nov 1, 2018)

*Thank you *everyone! This is all great information and a lot of information taken in. I would like to say that there is a difference between not being knowledgeable and being irresponsible. I want to be a good goat mama, so that is why I had the Buck Aprons made. Googling, you will find it seems like half the people that separate and half the people that don’t. I will be separating the Bucks!  

So ok, I got around 80x50ish big goat pen. I made three pens within it. Dotti and Joli will have 30x50 pen including the big goat house (inside goat house is a 10x5 birthing pen) that is where Dotti has been sleeping for weeks. Then beside them is a 30x50 pen (common pen?) then on the other side of that a 20x50 pen will be for Jeb and Obi. I got one large Igloo dog house but I need to build them a shelter this weekend and I will move them in. The back of the common pen will open to 7 wooded acres, but need to finish fencing it by next spring. If nothing else will have at least 1-2 acres fenced by then. 

All the goats are Boer goats with the exception that Dotti may have a little Nubian in her (facewise) but she has the Boer legs and body. 

When I got her, the lady just looked at her and said she thought she was pregnant. The lady had 10 fenced acres (that was originally setup for horses before the goats) and about 15 does and 1 solid black Boer buck. He was beautiful. She let her goats run together year round. 

I got Dotti July 6th so in a couple days I will be a 4 month goat owner. I got all the goats within that week. Her ligs come and go the last two weeks. In the morning times they are gone but by evening one is back and mushy. It takes me a minute or two to find it. Her pin bone area is all sunken in and I can feel her spine at the base of her tail. Her udder bag has gotten more milk but is not tight at all. 

She started losing whitish thick discharge plug the last week of sept and then here and there around same time I felt her milk bag developing (about size of lemon then) but last three days she has yellowish thick discharge. 

I feel baby or babies on both side of belly. On the right, the kicks are low. On the left, the kicks are high, like above the rumen. Either she has two or this is one big baby laying sideways and either way, I’m pretty nervous. I really hope she knows what to do. I think she cannot go too much longer so I’m really watching and paying attention to that udder. So that is where we are and I just want to say again that the bucks will be separated.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 1, 2018)

Louannx said:


> *Thank you *everyone! This is all great information and a lot of information taken in. I would like to say that there is a difference between not being knowledgeable and being irresponsible. I want to be a good goat mama, so that is why I had the Buck Aprons made. Googling, you will find it seems like half the people that separate and half the people that don’t. I will be separating the Bucks!
> 
> So ok, I got around 80x50ish big goat pen. I made three pens within it. Dotti and Joli will have 30x50 pen including the big goat house (inside goat house is a 10x5 birthing pen) that is where Dotti has been sleeping for weeks. Then beside them is a 30x50 pen (common pen?) then on the other side of that a 20x50 pen will be for Jeb and Obi. I got one large Igloo dog house but I need to build them a shelter this weekend and I will move them in. The back of the common pen will open to 7 wooded acres, but need to finish fencing it by next spring. If nothing else will have at least 1-2 acres fenced by then.
> 
> ...



I don't think anybody here meant to imply that you were irresponsible. I certainly never did. If anyone is irresponsible it's whoever told you you needed two bucks. Unfortunately there are way too many of those types. 

I personally believe that running bucks together with does year round depends on an individual's situation and goals. On an established farm with a large number of does to be bred and kid with minimal input, for example, it would be normal to run the buck. But on a start out farm with only a few does to breed and kid, running a buck could complicate things. Especially for a new goat keeper, it would be beneficial to know breeding dates and not worry about breeding accidents and such.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 1, 2018)

The fact that you are asking questions shows that you are not irresponsible.  No one is implying that you are.  We are all just trying to share information with you.  We all started out as beginners.  You are lucky to have this website and help from so many people.  When I got our first goats and sheep, I had to learn everything from books, there was no internet, and 35 years ago there were not that many "how-to" books except Ag textbooks.  Our first goat kids we delivered with my 11 year old daughter holding the book with a drawing of incorrect presentations of kids and trying to feel what was happening!     The goat did it all luckily, while the children watched, and I pretended I knew what was happening!  Both of our Nubian twin sister does had 4 kids each!         Dotti should kid easily, since her previous owner had a large herd and probably pasture kidded.  Kidding problems are relatively few.  We only hear about the bad ones when someone needs help.  You and Dotti will do just fine.  If you need us, we are here for you. 

Like MargaretClare said there are often reasons to run a buck with does all the time.  If you are breeding for sales, then you want the does in constant production.  With year round breeders like Boers, in order to get 3 kid crops in 2 years, you have to leave the buck with the does constantly in order for the does to breed back soon after kidding when they are most fertile.  If you are breeding for fun, and want to keep your herd to a smaller size, then you need to keep the does and bucks separated except when _you_ want to breed them.

Keeping 2 bucks is fine if you have a reason for each buck, just don't keep young doe kids with them.  If Dotti has a buck and doe kid you will also want to separate or wether the buck kid by 2 months old.  Since your younger buck is a particular color, and your husband wants to try to breed that color pattern, then keeping a second buck even for only a few does makes sense.  Besides he will be company for Jeb once Jeb is separated from Dotti and Joli.

The pens you describe sound perfect, and you can let the bucks and does graze the woods in turns.  I would keep Dotti and her babies away from the woods while they are small because of your coyote population.  If you are going to be turning your goats out into the 7 wooded acres once they are fenced, you might want to consider getting a livestock guardian dog to protect them.  Lots of information about LGDs on this site too. 

I have only 5 ewes at the moment (losses and switching breeds) and only bred 4 of them this year.  I have 2 rams because I plan to rotate them with my ewes.  I only needed one mature replacement ram, but picked up the younger ram lamb as a bargain from a particular breeder with particular bloodlines at an online auction.  Last lot, beautiful little boy, so win, win for me!  But, instead of running my ram with the flock like I did when I only had 1 ram, now I need extra pens because I have to keep the doelings separate from the rams, the 2nd ram separate from the flock during breeding, and the 2 rams together while I run the ewe lambs with their mothers on pasture.    Much more trouble for me and more pen building, but I have a reason for the 2nd ram.  He was too young to be used this year, but next year he will be used on the 5 current ewes, and I will keep any ewelings produced by the older ram.  I also plan to buy another 2 ewelings or yearling ewes next year.  Then I will need more pens because in a couple years I will be breeding both rams to selected ewes.  It gets more complicated, more expensive, and more fun, but unless you want to end up like a lot of us with *lots* of goats or sheep  , keep those bucks out of the doe pen until you are ready for more kids!  

It's gonna be fun!   Enjoy!  Oh yes, and post pix of those darling babies!


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## Hipshot (Nov 11, 2018)

Well ???????? got kids yet ? Since Last on I went up to 34 goats ,and down to 26. And Joe a big dirty white dog . That barks all night long. Package deal two nice young Boer bucks and the dog . He loves the two bucks and will not leave them. Tomorrow they get to be with some new nannies . Makes me sick because I have another young buck I paid twice as much for , and these two are much better. And now realize I didn't follow my own advice , I always advice anyone interested in a bred to attend a show before buying. For reasons like you said. They see uninformed people like they have three eyes   Not to mention the fact that everybody thinks their stock is the greatest there is .


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)




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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

Thanks for checking in. No kids yet. I have the bucks separated and the first few days, they all hung out at the fence. It was heartbreaking. The next two nights I got to bring the bucks in to the goat house and put their aprons back on, freezing temps down in low 20's. The goat house has the heat, the bucks have big dog houses they are sleeping in now. I had a solar light hooked up to dog house but one of them ate the stupid cord. agh! Dotti's pen is to the left, she will go back in there when the bucks are in. I do not know what else to do.

Dotti has had just about every color of discharge over the last 10 days. Her pin bone area is mush and the damn ligs, I just dont know. Her hips bones are pretuding. Looking at her from behind, she still has saddlebags so I do not think she has dropped any. She does not miss a meal, still a little piggy. Her udder is not full and tight, has only about a pint or a little more of milk. But she is a FF and a drama queen. She is so uncomfortable. Everyday she is closer, just do not know when. No real labor signs yet. Alot of discharge, everytime I clean her up it comes back but not streaming. At this point, I have thought everyday would be the day the last 4 weeks. By now, I am starting to get exhausted.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 12, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Thanks for checking in. No kids yet. I have the bucks separated and the first few days, they all hung out at the fence. It was heartbreaking. The next two nights I got to bring the bucks in to the goat house and put their aprons back on, freezing temps down in low 20's. The goat house has the heat, the bucks have big dog houses they are sleeping in now. I had a solar light hooked up to dog house but one of them ate the stupid cord. agh! Dotti's pen is to the left, she will go back in there when the bucks are in. I do not know what else to do.
> 
> Dotti has had just about every color of discharge over the last 10 days. Her pin bone area is mush and the damn ligs, I just dont know. Her hips bones are pretuding. Looking at her from behind, she still has saddlebags so I do not think she has dropped any. She does not miss a meal, still a little piggy. Her udder is not full and tight, has only about a pint or a little more of milk. But she is a FF and a drama queen. She is so uncomfortable. Everyday she is closer, just do not know when. No real labor signs yet. Alot of discharge, everytime I clean her up it comes back but not streaming. At this point, I have thought everyday would be the day the last 4 weeks. By now, I am starting to get exhausted.


The waiting can be the hardest part. Can't wait for an update with babies! She sounds pretty close. I had a doe early this year that I swear had and lost ligaments multiple times a day and went almost a week past her 150 days.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> The waiting can be the hardest part. Can't wait for an update with babies! She sounds pretty close. I had a doe early this year that I swear had and lost ligaments multiple times a day and went almost a week past her 150 days.



That is exactly where we are on the ligaments. They come and go and come and go. Only one comes back and mushy. The other is gone always. Sometimes it takes me a few minutes to find the mushy one. I am just gonna watch her udder or wait till I see the bubble.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 12, 2018)

Louannx said:


> That is exactly where we are on the ligaments. They come and go and come and go. Only one comes back and mushy. The other is gone always. Sometimes it takes me a few minutes to find the mushy one. I am just gonna watch her udder or wait till I see the bubble.


Yeah, the bubble is a sure sign.

I'd say her udder isn't full size yet. The doe I mentioned didn't bag up until her kidding, but I have another doe who for days before her kidding I'm always questioning whether her udder could possibly get any bigger and it does.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

She does not look very big standing up, maybe because she is long bodied. When she lays down she is huge and her belly did look like an alien moving everywhere. Movement has slowed down and can ever slightly feel a foot or head move. She is having a hard time jumping up to her bench. Hers is about a 1 1/2 off the ground. Maybe she will go within next couple days.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 12, 2018)

Louannx said:


> View attachment 54596 View attachment 54597
> 
> She does not look very big standing up, maybe because she is long bodied. When she lays down she is huge and her belly did look like an alien moving everywhere. Movement has slowed down and can ever slightly feel a foot or head move. She is having a hard time jumping up to her bench. Hers is about a 1 1/2 off the ground. Maybe she will go within next couple days.


Boers can hide babies pretty well in those long bodies. Sometimes when one of my does is close to starting labor and the babies are just getting into position I can see a head or hoof just poking out as a lump on the side of the belly. If I see it again this next kidding season I'm gonna video it because it's really weird to see. I'd gently push on it a little bit and the baby would wiggle back at me.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

ok, we have something new now. Not sure if I should post it. It looks like streaming Discharge, but it is not amber like i've read. All the other discharge has been a teaspoon to maybe two tablespoons. This is about 3 inches so far, maybe longer but it is yellow and the most I have seen in the last 10 days at once.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

I am really starting to get very scared, I think we may be getting serious here.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 12, 2018)

If the discharge is orange colored it could mean that she is in labor and having trouble delivering.  But you should have seen her gently straining.  She will get up and down, be very restless, sort of hold her breath and push.  I think I would tie her up, get some antibiotic soap on my fingers and investigate gently to see if she is open and there s anything there. Bright orange in the delivery fluid means that the baby is stressed and is passing the merconium.  I would definitely do a physical internal check.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

No its yellow. She got up from laying down about an hour or so. Not straining or pushing. She is talking some, which is weird for her and now is eating hay.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

Here it is so we can be clear about what I'm talking about.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 12, 2018)

YAY!  Kids on the way soon.  That is the mucous plug!  Absolutely nrmal.  She can pass it immediately before kodding OR up to several days before.  Since she is "talking" she may be in early labor.


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## Pioneer Chicken (Nov 12, 2018)

I would definitely keep a close eye on her since she is talking now.  Watch for  her getting up and down, up and down, pawing, zoned out eyes, and arching her back- all signs of labor.  So excited for you ! Will be watching for updates!!


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## Ridgetop (Nov 12, 2018)

Often, the doe will suddenly get her appetite back before she goes into labor.  Mainly because the kids have dropped into birthing position and have given her more room in her rumen.

Now the real holding your breath waiting begins.  Watch her closely for these signs:
1.  Pawing or scratching at the , laying down, getting up almost immediately and doing it again.
2.  Looking like she is holding her breath for several seconds and then breathing normally again - early contractions.
3.  Steady labor contractions and finally pushing.
4.  Appearance of the sac or bubble when heavy pushing is going on.  That will be the baby making its appearance.
5.  Once the first kid is born, I like to remove it since it will speed up labor and she will have the next one one more quickly.  If she does not have anther one soon, you can check by straddling her and putting your arms aroud her middle.  Gently lift up with yur hands under her belly.  If there is a second kid in there, you should feel some hard lumps which is another kid.  She shouldn't have any trouble.  If she does, I will keep checking for any postings from you. 

Waiting is nearly over!


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Often, the doe will suddenly get her appetite back before she goes into labor.  Mainly because the kids have dropped into birthing position and have given her more room in her rumen.
> 
> Now the real holding your breath waiting begins.  Watch her closely for these signs:
> 1.  Pawing or scratching at the , laying down, getting up almost immediately and doing it again.
> ...



I really like the “She shouldn’t have any trouble” part. I got scared earlier and I am so sorry. This can be so overwhelming or I’m just so exhausted from the whole process. Lol. She ate and is laying back down. I put her in her pen. Maybe this is the start of early labor. Maybe I have less then a week? I really just hope she does fine and has a healthy kid or two. I love her so much!


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## Ridgetop (Nov 12, 2018)

I am glad you are feeling more confident and less stressed.  Actually sounds like a textbook kidding - I was worried when you said it was yellow.  Glad to see the picture - definitely a mucuous plug.  Like I said, once the kids settle into the birth passage, she has more space in her rumen.  I have seen does that moped around the kidding pen for a week eating almost nothing, suddenly eat almost a flake of hay by themselves the day before they kid!  She should kid anytime between now and a week from now.  You may find kids in the pen with her tomorrow!  Boers are usually easy kidders and excellent moms. 

Don't worry about her udder not being huge.  The first milk is colostrum and the kids can't drink a lot at first.  By the 3rd day her real milk will be completely in.  Just make sure she is letting the kids nurse.  If she gets engorged with too much milk you will have to milk a little out so the kids can latch on or she will get sore and not let then nurse.  Probably not going to happen. 

However, keep an eye on her and watch for any indications that labor is not progressing properly.  If she is really straining with no results, tie her up so she can't move around.  Lubricate your index and middle fingers with antibiotic liquid soap (kills germs and makes it easy for you to slip inside the ewe) and gently insert your 2 fingers into her vaginal opening.  If the birth canal is open keep going and see if you feel anything.  If you feel something, you will have to decide if it is a nose, and 2 front hooves, - the best presentation; or a hoof and nose - acceptable presentation; 2 rear feet - not so good but you can work with it to pull the kid out. 

Anything else, and you might have a bad presentation.  You will have to lube your whole hand with soap and reach inside carefully.  Cut your fingernails if they are long so you don't puncture the second sac on the twin.  Then then you will have to sort out the different legs and kids by feel.  It helps me to close my eyes and visualize the various parts I am feeling by feeling from the end of the hoof up to the body and feeling along to find the head.  Then reposition the kid gently so the front hooves and head are coming out.  The doe will give a few pushes and you should be able to grab hold of the kid's front legs and help pull it out.  Clear its nose and rub its sides hard to get it breathing if it is limp.  then see if the next one can come out on its own otherwise you will have to g back inside and help it along too. 

I am more aggressive in helping my does and ewes by pulling kids and lambs because I don't like to wait until they are exhausted to go in and sort out the problem.   I have pulled many kids and lambs, but most were born without any help at all.


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

Great information! I really hope I don’t need to do that. I have my bag ready. She was doing this weird thing with her tail just a bit ago. I was watching her on camera and every so often she would slowly curl it all the way up on her back. After watching her for a while I went out there and she did it a few more times and stopped. I am guessing I read or saw a video that those are contractions. She has not done it recently but will keep an eye on her. She is still laying down. Once I see her progressing and getting up and down, I will get out there. We have 20ish degree weather tonight and with the heat out there it is maybe in 40’s or 50’s. So I want to make sure I get the kids  dried off. I got their heating barrel ready. I will let you know in the morning where we are at. Thanks again for being so informative and patient with a newbie like me. It makes all the difference just being able to talk about this with someone as experienced as you.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 12, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Great information! I really hope I don’t need to do that. I have my bag ready. She was doing this weird thing with her tail just a bit ago. I was watching her on camera and every so often she would slowly curl it all the way up on her back. After watching her for a while I went out there and she did it a few more times and stopped. I am guessing I read or saw a video that those are contractions. She has not done it recently but will keep an eye on her. She is still laying down. Once I see her progressing and getting up and down, I will get out there. We have 20ish degree weather tonight and with the heat out there it is maybe in 40’s or 50’s. So I want to make sure I get the kids  dried off. I got their heating barrel ready. I will let you know in the morning where we are at. Thanks again for being so informative and patient with a newbie like me. It makes all the difference just being able to talk about this with someone as experienced as you.


My very first ever kidding was a pull. I went to check on her and the buckling was head out with no front feet presented. Meconium was pretty dried on his head so he'd been that way for a bit. I was so scared but I got him out and his sister came like two minutes later with no help at all. He was really big and his shoulders were stuck. Stressing about it now is normal but just make sure everything is ready and try to relax and deal with it as it comes. You've  got this.  Do you have the # of an emergency vet if needed?


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 12, 2018)

Can't wait to see baby(ies)! I'll make sure to check in first thing tomorrow morning 

Goodluck!


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## Louannx (Nov 12, 2018)

I do not mind the pulling so much, it’s the going in that scares me. I have already violated this goat so much. I’m always feeling her up, foddleing her udder, peeking at her vulva and sniffing her goo. Lol and I stalk her on camera. I do not have a vet personally, but I know where one is. They do not like to look at goats but I heard they would.


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## Louannx (Nov 13, 2018)

I set alarm clock every hour to check the camera last night. Dotti does this thing with her tail, could be mild contractions. Maybe dialating. Her udder feels alittle bigger this morning, fills like two warm pints of milk. Labor has not started yet, but I am hopeful, todays the day. No pushing or distress. She just looks really uncomfortable and she got up to eat this morning. More of the yellow goo too. I will update if something changes. I am so excited, we are really close now!!!


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 13, 2018)

Woke up just in time!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 13, 2018)

Louannx said:


> I set alarm clock every hour to check the camera last night. Dotti does this thing with her tail, could be mild contractions. Maybe dialating. Her udder feels alittle bigger this morning, fills like two warm pints of milk. Labor has not started yet, but I am hopeful, todays the day. No pushing or distress. She just looks really uncomfortable and she got up to eat this morning. More of the yellow goo too. I will update if something changes. I am so excited, we are really close now!!!


How's her breathing look?


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## Louannx (Nov 13, 2018)

She seems to be doing fine and laying down now on her bench. I just let her out of her pen about 30 minutes ago. I was a little concerned this morning. It looked like it was hard for her to get up and walk on front legs. I gave her some NutriDrench and I cannot find my tums. I just bought some this weekend. But after she got out of her pen and moved around, I dont think theres anything wrong. She walked around for a bit and then went to her bench. It is just now hitting 34 degrees, we had a cold night in low 20's and she lays on a foot a straw in her pen, it is probably just pregnancy. I have suspected that she is carrying at least two. When she lays down, the baby on left is on top of rumen and was very active this morning. That one has been very active for last 6 weeks or so. The one on right is low and feels deeper, I just feel a hoof or head poke out or slide across. For the longest time I wondered if it was one big baby and I was feeling the head on one side and hooves on the other. But considering how wide she gets that is impossible. She does look like she has dropped, she looks different, would I still feel and see movement on the left if she is close to birth? Im just so confused.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 13, 2018)

Louannx said:


> She seems to be doing fine and laying down now on her bench. I just let her out of her pen about 30 minutes ago. I was a little concerned this morning. It looked like it was hard for her to get up and walk on front legs. I gave her some NutriDrench and I cannot find my tums. I just bought some this weekend. But after she got out of her pen and moved around, I dont think theres anything wrong. She walked around for a bit and then went to her bench. It is just now hitting 34 degrees, we had a cold night in low 20's and she lays on a foot a straw in her pen, it is probably just pregnancy. I have suspected that she is carrying at least two. When she lays down, the baby on left is on top of rumen and was very active this morning. That one has been very active for last 6 weeks or so. The one on right is low and feels deeper, I just feel a hoof or head poke out or slide across. For the longest time I wondered if it was one big baby and I was feeling the head on one side and hooves on the other. But considering how wide she gets that is impossible. She does look like she has dropped, she looks different, would I still feel and see movement on the left if she is close to birth? Im just so confused.


Yeah, she was probably just a little stiff. My girls get pretty miserable the last couple weeks. 2 babies is normal. I can see and feel babies to at least 24 hrs before birth. I don't remember seeing a lot of movement right before labor. They're probably just moving into position. Watch for very fast breathing. With my girls that's when I know it's coming.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 13, 2018)

I have read that if the baby(ies) is still moving then you have at least 12 hours left. But, in my own experience, I have felt kids right up until just before they are born. You might not always feel them. Some does you might feel them (I've only ever felt them moving hours before labor if there are multiples.) Some does you might not. She does sound really close though. I would guess within 3 days, but I've been wrong before.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 13, 2018)

You are all set and ready.  Good Luck on twins!  Easier birth since they are smaller.  Going in is not so bad if you close your eyes and imagine you are in a wet tight bag of babies.  LOL  I used to put stuffed animals in a pillowcase for my 4-H kids and have them feel around blindfolded.  They had to identify what they felt to prep for having to pull kids or lambs.  

I am currently waiting for one of my ewes to lamb.  She is due today.  Moved 4 of them into the barn lambing jugs last night.  The others are just for company, so she will not be too upset.  The other 3 are not due for 2-3 weeks.  Once she has her lambs she will  not care if I turn the others out for another 2 weeks.  She will only be interested in her new lambs.  She is a FF too.

I love lambing and kidding time!    So much fun when babies come!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 13, 2018)

My biggest fear with going in has always been "what if I tear something?" And probably always will be. Luckily that first time was the only pull I've had to do so far. Knock on wood.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 13, 2018)

Now that I have long nails, I have to be extra careful.  When I had dairy goats that usually kidded 2-4 and they would get tangled, I had short nails so no problem.


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## Louannx (Nov 13, 2018)

Thank you all! I will keep you posted. Her legs are fine and she is acting normal. Ready to keep progressing!


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## Wehner Homestead (Nov 13, 2018)

I feel like we’ve done you a disservice by not sharing this yet...

http://goatsinthegarden.blogspot.com/2009/02/doe-code-of-honor.html?m=1


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## Louannx (Nov 13, 2018)

Wehner Homestead said:


> I feel like we’ve done you a disservice by not sharing this yet...
> 
> http://goatsinthegarden.blogspot.com/2009/02/doe-code-of-honor.html?m=1



Too funny! This has been quite a learning experience that just keeps going and going.


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## Wehner Homestead (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Too funny! This has been quite a learning experience that just keeps going and going.



Been there, done that. Gearing up to do it again in the spring. Sometimes I wonder if we are glutton for punishment until all turns out well and you appreciate it for the miracle that it is.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)




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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

Here we go I think this time for real. I believe this is the pre-kidding stream. It is not like the gooey stuff she has had at various times this month and not the plug like two days ago. This looks like a clearish string or cord. So could we being talking about minutes to hours now? Does this look like what your goats did?

Oh and there is a piece of straw stuck on the bottom half.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Getting excited! 


Louannx said:


> Here we go I think this time for real. I believe this is the pre-kidding stream. It is not like the gooey stuff she has had at various times this month and not the plug like two days ago. This looks like a clearish string or cord. So could we being talking about minutes to hours now? Does this look like what your goats did?
> 
> Oh and there is a piece of straw stuck on the bottom half.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Woohoo! Looks like kidding is nearly here!!  looks just like how most my does do 30 mins to 6hours before kidding. Of course, your girl could be different. I would say 10minutes - 10 hours, lol. My official guess is SOON!


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Looking closer, is her udder tight? Has it filled any? She does look like she is sunken in her girly bits. Looks exactly like my girls do when in pre labor.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

I am sooooo excited for you...will be waiting for the announcement


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

I got three fist size bubbles hanging out. Do I pop them.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

If they appear to be in the way and causing any problems I would pop 1 or 2. More likely they aren't doing anything so I would just leave them. You do what you think is best


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> I got three fist size bubbles hanging out. Do I pop them.


Yay! Can't wait to get pics.

I've personally never felt the need to pop them.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Yay! Can't wait to get pics.
> 
> I've personally never felt the need to pop them.


Is it normal? Two hanging third keeps popping back in.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Is it normal? Two hanging third keeps popping back in.


Sounds normal to me. I'd worry if they started to dry out but that's unlikely.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Yep, sounds like the water. And the one going in and out is probably clear/yellowish? That is most likely the bubble the has the baby in it.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Look at the in and out bubble closely and see if there's a nose with two white hooves.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Hoping everything went well and you have a baby or 2  on the ground! 


Also, a little late for my guess but I think she will have 2. Both doelings. One black paint and the other will look just like Dotti or be a black head traditional. No harm in guessing!


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

Gosh the waiting is the worst.....hopefully  she is playing with babies  and caught up in goat kid fun.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

No kids yet. She quit having contractions about 45 minutes into it. They were never really hard contractions. Mild contractions are just starting back up. I went in earlier. Something is blocking the canal but she was not pushing so I could not pull. It was I think a nose and two feet? It was not sideways. It may be deceased.  The baby on left is still moving on left. I think I felt baby move on right side too but not sure. If I was guessing it may be three. I called several vets. The one in my area does not do goats. One was booked up and the other does not do afterhour home visits. I was in tears earlier but Dotti is in no distress and does not look to be in hard labor. She is laying down now but has been eating lots of hay. She still has two bags hanging out and udder has filled in more. Once she starts hard contractions I will go in a pull the one in the canal. Just not sure what to do.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

Maybe I am a bad goat mama after all. I read everything I could all these months and watched so many videos and I still cannot help her at this point.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Oh no, that's not good! You are NOT a bad goat mom. You are doing everything you can!. You can't predict what will happen beforehand. If it happens it happens. It NOT your fault. You need to get in there and get that kid out when she starts back up! Or try get oxytocin worse come to worse. The fact she is not in distress is good.   Praying for you and dotti!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> No kids yet. She quit having contractions about 45 minutes into it. They were never really hard contractions. Mild contractions are just starting back up. I went in earlier. Something is blocking the canal but she was not pushing so I could not pull. It was I think a nose and two feet? It was not sideways. It may be deceased.  The baby on left is still moving on left. I think I felt baby move on right side too but not sure. If I was guessing it may be three. I called several vets. The one in my area does not do goats. One was booked up and the other does not do afterhour home visits. I was in tears earlier but Dotti is in no distress and does not look to be in hard labor. She is laying down now but has been eating lots of hay. She still has two bags hanging out and udder has filled in more. Once she starts hard contractions I will go in a pull the one in the canal. Just not sure what to do.





Louannx said:


> Maybe I am a bad goat mama after all. I read everything I could all these months and watched so many videos and I still cannot help her at this point.


Don't feel bad. Reading up doesn't very well prepare you for practical application. If you do facebook, you could try and find a breeder or experienced goat person near you that may be willing to help. I'm sorry, I can't be much help on pulling advice. I'm wondering if she didn't dilate fully.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

Thank you! She is in no distress at all. She even took a nap. Once she starts up I will get that baby out. I can see the other baby in there and feel it. Hopefully there is a third one two.  But baby in canal was not moving.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Thank you! She is in no distress at all. She even took a nap. Once she starts up I will get that baby out. I can see the other baby in there and feel it. Hopefully there is a third one two.  But baby in canal was not moving.


Do you think you went deep enough to be sure that the set of legs and the nose belong to the same kid? By the time I got out to help pull my first kid my doe had given up pushing so that's something to consider as well.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

The baby will not move if in the canal. It is possible he is deceased but I wouldn't be sure of it. Earlier in the thread, I said I could only feel kids while the doe is in labor if she has multiple. That's because the baby won't move when he is in the cabal.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Don't feel bad. Reading up doesn't very well prepare you for practical application. If you do facebook, you could try and find a breeder or experienced goat person near you that may be willing to help. I'm sorry, I can't be much help on pulling advice. I'm wondering if she didn't dilate fully.



That makes sense. Maybe she wasn’t fully dilated. The baby does not feel big so I wouldn’t know why she couldn’t get it out and just stopped and ate and napped.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> That makes sense. Maybe she wasn’t fully dilated. The baby does not feel big so I wouldn’t know why she couldn’t get it out and just stopped and ate and napped.


She may just have exhausted herself pushing. It's been a very long time for something that should have taken maybe 30 minutes per kid.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

She never pushed very long before contractions stopped earlier. She never beared down or screamed or nothing. It just completely stopped. She went and ate and then stood around for awhile and licked up clear looking stuff. I believe the bag broke on the kid in the canal. Then she dug around awhile. She definitely was not wore out.

It’s been over 3 hours or so.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> She never pushed very long before contractions stopped earlier. She never beared down or screamed or nothing. It just completely stopped. She went and ate and then stood around for awhile and licked up clear looking stuff. I believe the bag broke on the kid in the canal. Then she dug around awhile. She definitely was not wore out.
> 
> It’s been over 3 hours or so.


Sounds like she needs oxytocin. Low calcium could also cause weak or no contractions but that sounds like vet territory.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

That's so strange. Do you have any tums or nutridrench? That's a long time for bubbles and no kids. I believe the kid is fine if the bag breaks as long as the umbilical cord is intact. Not 100% sure though.  I would call the vets and try and oxytocin. It's not very expensive and if they aren't going to help her they should at least be able to give you that.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

Not trying to interfear here, went thru similar situation last mo th, is she full term ? Can you give her kayo  syrup to help her with extra energy ? You could post this in the EMERGENCY  section and the very experienced goat people will get on board to tell you what to do......not sayin any of us are have no experience,  just saying if you suspect one may be dead in birth canal... extra help be just a click away .....hope all works out well, praying for you and i do feel your stress...barb


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Not trying to interfear here, went thru similar situation last mo th, is she full term ? Can you give her kayo  syrup to help her with extra energy ? You could post this in the EMERGENCY  section and the very experienced goat people will get on board to tell you what to do......not sayin any of us are have no experience,  just saying if you suspect one may be dead in birth canal... extra help be just a click away .....hope all works out well, praying for you and i do feel your stress...barb



I do not know if it is deceased. I just figured it was after this long. I have nutridrench. I have syrup. Will give her some.

I believe she’s full term.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Also, with cattle, if the calf stays in the canal for too long the head will swell making everything more complicated and I'd imagine the same applies to goats.

Maybe @Ridgetop could give some input on pulling without contractions if they come online?


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Also, with cattle, if the calf stays in the canal for too long the head will swell making everything more complicated and I'd imagine the same applies to goats.
> 
> Maybe @Ridgetop could give some input on pulling without contractions if they come online?


Put it emergeny , section, pm ghost whisper, souther by choice...they will contact people who will help you fast


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Also, with cattle, if the calf stays in the canal for too long the head will swell making everything more complicated and I'd imagine the same applies to goats.
> 
> Maybe @Ridgetop could give some input on pulling without contractions if they come online?


Put it emergeny , section, pm ghost whisper, souther by choice...they will contact people who will help you fast


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Also, with cattle, if the calf stays in the canal for too long the head will swell making everything more complicated and I'd imagine the same applies to goats.
> 
> Maybe @Ridgetop could give some input on pulling without contractions if they come online?


Put it emergeny , section, pm ghost whisper, souther by choice...they will contact people who will help you fast


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Also, with cattle, if the calf stays in the canal for too long the head will swell making everything more complicated and I'd imagine the same applies to goats.
> 
> Maybe @Ridgetop could give some input on pulling without contractions if they come online?


Put it emergeny , section, pm ghost whisper, souther by choice...they will contact people who will help you fast


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Also, with cattle, if the calf stays in the canal for too long the head will swell making everything more complicated and I'd imagine the same applies to goats.
> 
> Maybe @Ridgetop could give some input on pulling without contractions if they come online?


Put it emergeny , section, pm ghost whisper, souther by choice...they will contact people who will help you fast


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

I don't a lot experience with pulling but if you can't find someone else to walk you through It, feel free to pm me and I can give you my number and help the best that I can!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Hopefully you can get a hold of somebody experienced. Good luck. I do believe that she and you need help asap.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

Goats who stop pushing do so for a reason.  You felt something blocking the birth canal.  You can't just leave it at that.  You need to go in.  Lube up and explore.  Please do NOT give oxytocin unless you are certain that she is totally dilated - that is a recipe for disaster such as a ruptured uterus.  Hopefully you feel two feet and a nose.  If so, pull on one leg and the nose.  The shoulders are bulky and it's easier to get one through at a time...the other will follow.  If you feel one leg and a nose - you can still pull.  Going in will stimulate her to push unless she's totally exhausted.  Pulling when she pushes is great - but if she's not pushing anymore you still have to get the baby out.    Do you have a vet that you can call?


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

Im pretty sure you only pull while she pushs and that would be in a downward pull,  but you need help. Panicking isn't  going to help so don't  panic.she needs your comfort, i will send some pms out but please post in emergency  now...i will do the best i can to get someone to help you.  I see you just got back upfustratedeartmothe is super !


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Goats who stop pushing do so for a reason.  You felt something blocking the birth canal.  You can't just leave it at that.  You need to go in.  Lube up and explore.  Please do NOT give oxytocin unless you are certain that she is totally dilated - that is a recipe for disaster such as a ruptured uterus.  Hopefully you feel two feet and a nose.  If so, pull on one leg and the nose.  The shoulders are bulky and it's easier to get one through at a time...the other will follow.  If you feel one leg and a nose - you can still pull.  Going in will stimulate her to push unless she's totally exhausted.  Pulling when she pushes is great - but if she's not pushing anymore you still have to get the baby out.    Do you have a vet that you can call?


Thank you for the oxy info. I have no experience using it myself but have been with my aunt using it on dogs. I'm sorry to have given her misguided advice.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 14, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Im pretty sure you only pull while she pushs and that would be in a downward pull


That is what the literature says - but 30 years of experience tells me that is not always true.  If the doe stops pushing - you have to pull!  And there are many times that before you can pull down - you have to get the baby UP and over the brim of the pelvis.  Depends on the position the kid is in.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> That is what the literature says - but 30 years of experience tells me that is not always true.  If the doe stops pushing - you have to pull!  And there are many times that before you can pull down - you have to get the baby UP and over the brim of the pelvis.  Depends on the position the kid is in.


Understand was just trying to get her help and you magically  appeared,  thank goodness....


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

Good info about Oxy! Glad frustratedearthmother came in! I have only ever used it once and that doe was dilated already. Make sure she is dilated if you go that route as has been said already. I do agree with the info given. I pulled kids on my mini Mancha girl when she was aborting twins a month early. Thinking back it was almost the same thing you are going through. Other than she only had one bag, not 3. We let her push for about 25 minutes went in. Felt the problem. She stopped pushing and we started to pull. Regardless that didn't work and we ended up having to cut the kids to get them out. But they were preemies and no way they would survive a month early. These seem full term. Hope whatever you decide to do works out and everyone is just fine!


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

I found emergency section. Don’t know how to post.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 14, 2018)

If you are on mobile should be in the top corner. Not sure where it is on PC.


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> I found emergency section. Don’t know how to post.


Start a thread in emergecy section or go back to  fustratedearthmother, she can guide you thru this


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> I found emergency section. Don’t know how to post.


Circled button in the pic if you're on a mobile


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> That is what the literature says - but 30 years of experience tells me that is not always true.  If the doe stops pushing - you have to pull!  And there are many times that before you can pull down - you have to get the baby UP and over the brim of the pelvis.  Depends on the position the kid is in.


 Can you stay and help this girl or find someone to guide her thru this.... @fustratedearthmother.


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## Louannx (Nov 14, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> Circled button in the pic if you're on a mobile



Posted it, thanks.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 14, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Posted it, thanks.


See you there


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## B&B Happy goats (Nov 14, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Can you stay and help this girl or find someone to guide her thru this.... @fustratedearthmother.


@fustratedeaethmother


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)

Discussion moved to Emergency - Goat labor forum. Everything ended successfully. Will post pics of doeling and buckling tomorrow. Thank you all for your help, kindness, wisdom and support!


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)

Dotti kidded two beautiful goat kids. Brown one is doeling and white one is buckling. After 6 hours of long labor I went in and untangled them. The whole process started at 3:30pm yesterday (after 15 minutes posting the prekidding string, discussion moved to - Forum: Emergency - Goat Labor), I went in about 10pm for the first one and I got the last one out at midnight. I will not lie to you, this was the hardest thing I have ever done. At some point I thought I was killing the baby and some times I thought I was killing Dotti, but I did not let go. Slippery little boogers too. It took forever and I was crying while my son held Dotti still. The first time, there was 3 legs and a head. Had to find out which leg went to the head and pulled, seemed like it took forever. The second one had one leg and head and could not get the other leg out. So I grabbed and pulled and wriggled while she pushed and finally the other leg released the baby through the canal. I am guessing besides being tangled they are really big. It turned out to be a good happy ending. Just me and Dotti are traumatized. She is an excellent mother and I am very proud of her. Thank you all, words cannot express my gratitude and I am blessed to have you all help me through this. I cannot believe, I just saved three lives, its a miracle!


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)




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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 15, 2018)

They are adorable! Congrats on 2 live babies! You did a great job!


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## MargaretClare (Nov 15, 2018)

By the way @Louannx how's your other doe? Is there no chance she's bred as well?


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## MargaretClare (Nov 15, 2018)

Also, gosh that doeling is beautiful. The solid reds are my favorite!


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## Louannx (Nov 15, 2018)

MargaretClare said:


> By the way @Louannx how's your other doe? Is there no chance she's bred as well?



No, I do not think so. She goes in heat about every 3 weeks and the bucks go nuts. They never went nuts with Dotti at all so I knew she was pregnant. Jolie was born Feb 1st so I was off on her months. She is 9 months old not 7 months old.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 15, 2018)

Louannx said:


> No, I do not think so. She goes in heat about every 3 weeks and the bucks go nuts. They never went nuts with Dotti at all so I knew she was pregnant. Jolie was born Feb 1st so I was off on her months. She is 9 months old not 7 months old.


Okay, that's very good news as well!


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## Louannx (Nov 17, 2018)

Ok so I noticed today an issue with Dotti milk. She has milk but still a pint or two and cannot get it out of her teats. I gave the kids about 2 ounce a piece of warmed cows milk. I massage and applied warm compress. Any suggestions on what I can give her to make her blow up with milk? It’s been three days since delivery. I will supplement the kids till I can get Dotti going.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 17, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Ok so I noticed today an issue with Dotti milk. She has milk but still a pint or two and cannot get it out of her teats. I gave the kids about 2 ounce a piece of warmed cows milk. I massage and applied warm compress. Any suggestions on what I can give her to make her blow up with milk? It’s been three days since delivery. I will supplement the kids till I can get Dotti going.


You mean she's not giving any milk at all? Like her teats are plugged or something?


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## Louannx (Nov 18, 2018)

Hi, yes her teat was plugged but I got it fixed. She still has not filled up tight with milk. Still has like two pints of milk. When it comes in late, how late are we talking about. I see all these pics of other people’s goats udders and they look like they have about a gallon and a half.


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## StarSpangledNubians (Nov 18, 2018)

Can you try and get a picture of her udder? Normally if they are filling in late it should be within a week. I've never had it take longer than that. That's just my experience though. If kids are nursing on her it probably won't look like she has a lot of milk. Or maybe her bag is just small. Which can happen. The ones with huge bags are probably dairy goats, and if it's a boer that you have seen with a huge udder, normally it's an older doe who has kidded multiple times.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 18, 2018)

Louannx said:


> Hi, yes her teat was plugged but I got it fixed. She still has not filled up tight with milk. Still has like two pints of milk. When it comes in late, how late are we talking about. I see all these pics of other people’s goats udders and they look like they have about a gallon and a half.


I agree with @StarSpangledNubians that she probably just has a small boer udder. By the way, does she have 2 teats or 4? Most boers are bred for 2x2 teats while most other goats are 1x1. She's _probably_ producing enough but a pic would help. Do the babies seem normal? Babies really only need about 10% to 12% of their bodyweight in milk per day. So an 8lb kid would only need about 15oz per day.


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## Louannx (Nov 18, 2018)

She has two teats and the kids seem fine. They are on her a lot. I went and got goat milk replacer and the buckling took a good ounce, the doeling didn’t. I noticed she has a full belly but the buckling didn’t so maybe that is why he drank. I will keep an eye on them. I will get a picture tomorrow. Hopefully with them always being on her she will produce more but they never really seem to nurse her dry but I can tell that they seem fine. They jump around and play when not sleeping.


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## MargaretClare (Nov 18, 2018)

Louannx said:


> She has two teats and the kids seem fine. They are on her a lot. I went and got goat milk replacer and the buckling took a good ounce, the doeling didn’t. I noticed she has a full belly but the buckling didn’t so maybe that is why he drank. I will keep an eye on them. I will get a picture tomorrow. Hopefully with them always being on her she will produce more but they never really seem to nurse her dry but I can tell that they seem fine. They jump around and play when not sleeping.


Then I wouldn't worry too much about her milk production, but if she allows, it wouldn't hurt to check both teats for milk once or twice a day. Just give each teat a squirt onto the ground if she's having plugging issues. 

Keep an eye on them and see if he habitually nurses a little less than her. Like is his belly always a little less full than hers. Just something to make note of. But again, as long as they both seem happy and normal, I wouldn't worry a whole lot.


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## Louannx (Nov 18, 2018)

Thank you so much! Will do.  Have a good evening to both of you.


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## FRED DESANTIS (Apr 7, 2019)

Quick question, is it normal for kids to favor one teat over the other. My doe had twins last night. They are healthy and nursing real good but they seem to favor one teat over the other.? Both teats are working well I checked..


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 7, 2019)

FRED DESANTIS said:


> Quick question, is it normal for kids to favor one teat over the other. My doe had twins last night. They are healthy and nursing real good but they seem to favor one teat over the other.? Both teats are working well I checked..



yes we had a doe with twin doelings who only nursed off one side, we had to milk the other side.  We tried to get the kids to nurse the other side but they wouldn't.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 7, 2019)

I've had the same situation.  I worked with the kids and would gently move one to the other side.  Sometimes you have to block access to their favored teat by covering it with your hand.  Just pick one kid to try to graft to the other teat and leave the other kid on the favored teat. Hopefully it won't take long to convince them that there are two faucets, lol.

It really helps if the doe is cooperative.


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 7, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I've had the same situation.  I worked with the kids and would gently move one to the other side.  Sometimes you have to block access to their favored teat by covering it with your hand.  Just pick one kid to try to graft to the other teat and leave the other kid on the favored teat. Hopefully it won't take long to convince them that there are two faucets, lol.
> 
> It really helps if the doe is cooperative.



we wondered in our situation if it had to do with the one side being the 1st they nursed on so to them that was where they went..


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## Hipshot (Apr 7, 2019)

I have a whole different problem . My doe kidded twins and walks away from the buckling . If he nurses when the doeling nurses he gets to nurse . He  was a bit weak at birth, and she has been trying to abandon him ever since I've given him two bottles about six ounces each .I have found him trying to nurse y truck early one morning .I gave him a bottle that morning  He is strong enough now to follow her out to the field . I'm on constant guard . Last night the dog started barking and ran out in the pasture . Next thing I know she is driving the little guy up . He kept trying to run under anything and hide, so she started trying to pick him up .I called her off and he went under the hay mower and bedded down. The flock had been up for at half hour or more and the doe never called for him once .While Mini who's kids were born the same day goes crazy if they get out of her sight.  So you run into all kinds of things . If you milk out the side save the milk and freeze it . Might come in handy latter . Keep the side milked down not out . encourage them to nurse it every chance you get .


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## FRED DESANTIS (Apr 9, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I've had the same situation.  I worked with the kids and would gently move one to the other side.  Sometimes you have to block access to their favored teat by covering it with your hand.  Just pick one kid to try to graft to the other teat and leave the other kid on the favored teat. Hopefully it won't take long to convince them that there are two faucets, lol.
> 
> It really helps if the doe is cooperative.


Well it seems they figured it out. They are nursing both sides now.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 9, 2019)

Yay - sometimes it just take 'em a few days.


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