# Kidding Pen Questions UPDATE: She's home!



## RainySunday (Apr 28, 2011)

We are getting a pregnant doe this weekend (she is due in June).  We plan to keep her in a kidding pen at first, so the others can get used to her and not beat the tar out of her while she is pregnant.  Then we will let them into the big pasture together, and depending on how that goes, she will either be kept in the kidding pen until she kids, or let out with the others then put back in when her time gets close.  

So, all that said, I know I will need hay, water and minerals accessible in the kidding pen for her.  She is a Nigerian Dwarf.  Is there a rule of thumb for how big/deep the water bucket can be, knowing she could kid when we are not there, and eventually kids will be in there with her? Should the minerals be kept up out of where the kids could reach?  Hay, I can figure out.

Anything else that I may be not thinking of?  Thanks!


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## Livinwright Farm (Apr 28, 2011)

As far as the water goes, you can use a mounted mineral feeder. 1 qt of water fits perfectly in each "bin" , granted you need to fill it multiple times per day or have a float for automatic watering, but mounting on the wall keeps it out of the kid/kids' reach and makes it the perfect hieght for drinking out of.  If you get the 5 bin mineral feeder/trough, then you can fill 2 bins with water, 1 with mineral & baking soda mix, 1 with Calf Manna, and 1 with her feed and/or fresh fuit & veggies - just not banana while she is pregnant... the potassium will disrupt the calcium to phosphurous ratio, and she will need as much calcium as possible for the kidding process.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 29, 2011)

I would not mix minerals and baking soda.  They'll eat the baking soda when they eat the minerals, and that can cause rumen pH issues. A properly fed goat should not need baking soda.  I never give baking soda unless I see an actual digestive issue.  


OP, are you worried about a kid being born into a water bucket?  I can't imagine why a regular water bucket wouldn't work.  And I don't think anything needs to be kept out of the kids' reach.  They won't get hurt from eating minerals, and I doubt they'd even eat that much to begin with...at least until they're older.


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## RainySunday (Apr 29, 2011)

Yeah, I was mainly concerned about her dropping a kid in the bucket, or a kid getting into the bucket and being stuck.  Maybe I'll just use a regular one and not anchor it to the fence, so if a baby did get in there, they could probably tip it to get out?  Or I could put a couple bricks in it or something so it's not too deep?  Does anyone else worry about this stuff, lol?

I don't put out baking soda, and don't plan too.  I only give it as needed.  That's good to know the minerals are fine for them and that they would probably leave it alone anyhow.


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## Livinwright Farm (Apr 29, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I would not mix minerals and baking soda.  They'll eat the baking soda when they eat the minerals, and that can cause rumen pH issues. A properly fed goat should not need baking soda.  I never give baking soda unless I see an actual digestive issue.
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> OP, are you worried about a kid being born into a water bucket?  I can't imagine why a regular water bucket wouldn't work.  And I don't think anything needs to be kept out of the kids' reach.  They won't get hurt from eating minerals, and I doubt they'd even eat that much to begin with...at least until they're older.


I was not talking a 50/50 mix.... I know there are quite a few members here that feed baking soda free choice/ mixed. I personally do not give it free choice, only if one or more in the herd over indulged themselves on browse, but was giving it as an example of what one of the 5 bins in the mineral trough could be used for.
"A properly fed goat" shouldn't *need* minerals either... we(meaning all of us caring goat owners) give in the off chance that something happens and they need some extra dietary help.
I give Nutri Drench in more situations than others on here. 
For instance:
My almost 9 month old doeling that is due to kid, literally any day. I gave her a dose of it 2 weeks ago,  and gave her another dose the other day. Why? Because I want to ensure that her growing body has enough nutrients for her development & for the development of her kids. She also gets:
Calf Manna
Purina Noble Goat
Goats Prefer Probiotic Power - once/mo. to ensure her rumen is working perfectly.
Manna Pro goat mineral
Free access to a large WHITE salt block.
Fresh produce
Corn husks
Timothy Hay(the only feed hay that is available for "fresh" hay around here)
1 cup of BOSS
and 1/2 cup of scratch grains(with NO scouring, btw)


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## RainySunday (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks, I think it's neat to see all the different feeding options there are!  Thanks for sharing!


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 29, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> "A properly fed goat" shouldn't *need* minerals either... we(meaning all of us caring goat owners) give in the off chance that something happens and they need some extra dietary help.


Not to hijack the thread, but feeding minerals is not the same as baking soda.  Minerals are good, and in many cases they're lacking from the diet since soils of a particular area are lacking in that particular nutrient.  A goat won't eat too many minerals, and minerals don't affect the rumen pH.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 29, 2011)

I wouldn't mix the baking soda either, a goat will munch on some baking soda if they need it and having it mixed in with the salt/minerals would force feed it to them all the time.  

Livinwright: not really sure were you are going with "shouldn't Need minerals either" and  "give in the off chance"
Personally, In the united states needing minerals is not by chance, we are too copper and selenium deficient for a productive goat(one in milk or breeding) to beable to sustain a healthy life without added minerals in some form be it in the feed, nutri-drench, loose minerals, ectt....  sure you could argue if they had endless supplies of forage they would choose to eat what their bodies needed, but most of us don't have endless supplies of forage and most of us are raising domesticated breeds and not mountain goats. 

as far as water bucket in the kidding pen, we have always used the shorter 5 gallon pail water buckets in the corner of a 4x8pen and can't say drowning in the bucket or even getting in bucket has ever been an issue,  more chance that the mom will lay on the kid than anything. I would recommend a barrel or small area the kid can get into to get away from mom, helps with the kids not getting smashed, I recently talked to someone that just put a  small ledge in the pen that the baby could get under, to feel more safe and not be under foot of mom all the time.  Over the past 15 years I have lost atleast 3 or 4 kids to smashings int he kidding pens, very frustrating, Since we have put in kidding barrels we have not had this problem. 

We just put our grain in a dog food bowel, in a couple weeks, babies will be munching with mom. 

As far as minerals out for her all the time you can just hang a small hanging feeder or build a pvc pipe mineral feeder and attach it in the corner. 
http://www.gorge-usboergoats.com/our_barn.htm

We have a couple of these that work wonderfully, a little pricey but have held up well for years. 

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=10f6b5cb-53f3-455c-a4c3-7755ebc436b0

these work nicely if you have wire fencing to clip them too
http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail....f5-4b98-b8de-7824cb89cfa6&gas=hanging feeders

these work nice for grain  if your kidding pen is made with boards, but they will knock them off if you are using them for minerals. 

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=62180730-82d8-474a-a14e-31d1dd1d6411&gas=grain feeder,


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## RainySunday (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks 20 Kids!  That is really helpful!  I will definitely put in an "escape hatch".  And I will look at the other feed store for a better hanging dish/mineral feeder.


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## Livinwright Farm (Apr 29, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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For the record, I never said that it was.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 29, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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Well my bad! It sure sounded like you were comparing them.


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## Livinwright Farm (Apr 29, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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My only comparison, so to speak, is to make the point that in order to be properly fed, some goats require rugular or free choice baking soda(my precious pain of a goat Momma, for emaple), just as I am sure there are goats that need to have regular or free choice minerals, where others don't even need a teaspoon of mineral per week.

*My note to the OP:* My best suggestion _in regards to minerals, baking soda, and other dietary additions/supplements_, is to have your vet do a thorough exam and get their opinion as to whether or not your goat/goats will require any additions/supplements in their diet.  Some goats are fine without anything but browse, some require more, and some require MORE.  We can only give you our own advice based on the knowledge we have from working with our own animals... Goats are like snowflakes... not one of them is the same.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 29, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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Why would a properly fed goat be unable to maintain a normal rumen pH on it's own?  And, IMHO, having your vet do a wellness exam on an apparently healthy goat to determine dietary requirements is totally unnecessary and probably not helpful.

Nurturing, I understood your question to be a) what to do with the water bucket so she doesn't drop the babies in at kidding time and b) is it ok for kids to have access to minerals...  I have Nigerians too and in our kidding stall I have a bin feeder which I use for water that's attached to the wall high enough that the doe can reach it but it's just a wee bit higher than her rump.  She'd have to really work to put a kid in it!  And it's ok for babies to have access to minerals.  They'll probably just ignore them until they get a little older and if they were to nibble it'd be no biggie.


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## Livinwright Farm (Apr 29, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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Momma is a dominance triggered over eater. If she sees the lower on the totem pole, Maude, eating ANYTHING she has to barge in a scarf as much of whatever it is as possible(and then some).
I am not sure about the PH part of it, but know that baking soda works wonders for goats that are prone to bloat, like the overeaters are.  I can feed her a diet so perfectly balanced like no one has ever seen before, and she, while browsing & eating hay, would still overeat and end up bloating if it weren't for the baking soda. (exhibited by her, "Chew, unh, chew, unh, chew, unh")  Like I said, not one goat is the same, and I am sure there are vets out there that can help goat owners formulate the best nutritional plan for individual goats... right?

And that is exactly the feeder I had mentioned. TSC calls it a mineral feeder and it comes in  2 bin and 5 bin.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 29, 2011)

Bloat is caused by a pH imbalance in the rumen.  Baking soda is used as a treatment because it's a base and corrects the acid imbalance.  Not to nitpick, but if she's overeating her diet isn't balanced, regardless of what's causing the overeating.  

Yes, nutrition should be adjusted to meet the needs of the individual, but goat physiology does not vary between individuals.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2011)

If you are going to keep her in the kidding pen, I would make sure it is big enough, we use 4x6 or 4x8, but they don't stay in it for more than a few days, so I would give yours more room, access to some sunshine coming in from an open door, or an area she can go outside, and plenty of air circulation for the warming months. Perhaps this was already your plan, but when I think of a kidding pen, I think of a much smaller area, more enclosed. 

 If for some reason you have her in a large area, and she kids and is having a hard to adjusting to letting the kids nurse, I would recommend a smaller area such as a 4x6 for the first few days for bonding and then let out into a bigger area. 


Have you herd of Bo-SE?  I would also consider buying some of the feed from the owner to help her with the transition, and slowly change over to your feed over a 2 week period. Unless by chance you are already buying the exact same feed.

I recommend a Bo-se shot and CD&T shot 30 days before kidding, and if they have never had a vaccination shot you would need to give a booster shot 21 days later.  

Sorry if I am giving you info you already know. 

I would worm her when she comes to your farm with a mild wormer like safegaurd at 3 x the sheep dose for 3 days in a row.


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## RainySunday (Apr 30, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> If you are going to keep her in the kidding pen, I would make sure it is big enough, we use 4x6 or 4x8, but they don't stay in it for more than a few days, so I would give yours more room, access to some sunshine coming in from an open door, or an area she can go outside, and plenty of air circulation for the warming months. Perhaps this was already your plan, but when I think of a kidding pen, I think of a much smaller area, more enclosed.
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Thanks!  It will be on the smaller side, but our barn is open front (she will have wind protection), so there will be plenty of light and fresh air.  I am planning to let them all into the big pasture together after a couple days, and if that goes well, she won't have to be penned separate the whole time.  If it doesn't go well, I can let the others out to the pasture during the day and she can have the smaller pen to herself for a few hours at a time.  We are playing all that by ear.  The other option is to take her on goat walks a few times a day when it is nice out.

If we get her, I am contacting the vet monday to get some BoSe to give her.  Is it better to give it too early, or..?  We don't have an exact due date for her, just "June".  We will also do CDT, it's in the fridge waiting.

Is ivermectin okay when they are preg?  That's what I have right now.


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## RainySunday (Apr 30, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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Thanks, that is really good to know!  I will go get one of those bin feeders and try that!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 30, 2011)

nurturingnaturally said:
			
		

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Ivermectin is perfectly safe for pregnant does.  I usually worm pretty aggressively as part of our quarantine protocol with both ivomec and a white dewormer (either valbazen if they're open/bucks or safeguard if they're bred.)  I know everyone's routine is different, but I want to be sure I don't introduce anything to the herd.

You want to try to give her the C/D&T booster around 30 days out, but I have read as early as 6 weeks out is ok.  If she's previously unvaccinated and she were here, I'd probably vaccinate immediately upon arrival then boost in 3 weeks.


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## elevan (Apr 30, 2011)

nurturingnaturally said:
			
		

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x2 - I agree with 20kids

On Ivermectin:
Ivomec Injectable (give orally instead)
1cc/ml per 40# body weight (pregnant does)
1cc/ml per 25# body weight (non pregnant)
_This is what works best in my neck of the woods_

As for water dish in my kidding pens: we use a large dishpan (you can get for $2 at Walmart) and fill 3/4 of the way with water...it's about 2 gallons or so.  We set it on a couple of bricks.

We also take a large tote with holes cut in it for our "kid house" to allow the kids to get away from mama (we flip the tote on it's lid...without the lid).

eta: we also have the mineral feeders that we screw to the wall...minerals are out at all times even in kidding pens.  One side has minerals and the other side is left open for "as needed stuff" like baking soda, straight salt (though we rarely have to do this), or other as needed...


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2011)

nurturingnaturally said:
			
		

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Ivermectin is fine when they are preg, give it at the dose of 1cc per 25lbs of body weight, The reason I mention Safegaurd is that ivermectin does nothing for tapeworms, and I am always dealing with tapeworms on our property. If I were to buy one wormer I would buy safegaurd, but if she seems overall healthy and maintains good condition and hair quality ivermectin would be fine. 

As far as the Bo-Se I feel it works best 6 weeks or closer to the due date, it seems like does that I have given it to and went longer than 6 weeks before kidding had more of  a chance of having splayed -legged or weak jointed kids, but it wasn't anything that couldn't be fixed, by giving the kid a 1/4 to 1/2 cc shot of bo-se and just keep kid closer to mom for a couple days.   If you are getting a bottle from your vet I would make sure the previous owner hasn't given her any, it can be overdosed, and then give her 1cc per 40lbs when you get her, and then if she hasn't kidded in 6 weeks give her a half a dose for good measure.


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## RainySunday (May 3, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your input and experience!  She is home and settling in well.  We have her in a 4' by 10' pen withing the larger pen, so she can see the others and they can see her, but they can't hurt her.  She has had her CDT and deworming (Sunday) and did well.  We are giving her probios powder on her litle bit of grain for a few days, just to make sure her tummy is doing well.  SLowly slowly slowly switching her to our brand of grain, seems to be going well.  We have been able to feel kid(s) kicking and that is very neat!  I also have a call in to the vet to get some BoSe, and if she won't give it to me, I have a local mentor who said she can give me a dose for her.  She was with the buck the first couple weeks of January, so she sould be due the 1st-14th of June, or as early as the 27th of May (if she goes at 145, or as late as June 19th, if she goes later.  I will post pictures later.  I have't gotten any yet, not wanting to stress her out anymore, you know?


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## RainySunday (May 3, 2011)

Man, she really wants out with the others today!  She is butting the stall a lot!  Hopefully we can get the larger pasture finished today/tomorrow, so they can all go out there (she would have room to run/get away from the others) soon.  It was all done except for electric, and the horse who will have it at night (they will be in there during the day, so sharing, but not in there at the same time) broke half of it!  So we spent all weekend repairing and getting the first part of hot wire up.  Now we need to restretch a bit of fence that we had to set new posts for, and finish the lower levels of electric, so the goats can go in.  I hope hubby gets home while it is still light!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 3, 2011)

nurturingnaturally said:
			
		

> We have been able to feel kid(s) kicking and that is very neat!


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