# "URGENT!  Bute for dog-attacked doe?  Dark urine, won't eat, help!"



## foreverblu (Aug 31, 2011)

For those of you not following, day before yesterday a pair of wolf/hybrids attacked my nigerian herd in broad daylight.  They killed my sweet herd leader Laverne and seriously injured 3 others.  These goats are more family/pets than anything.  Anyway, after having an emergency vet and the sheriff department out I have been caring for my babies here at the house.  The buck and buckling seem to be doing well for the most part.  Both are very sore but eating and drinking well.  My pregnant doe is not doing too well.  She is in a lot of pain and cannot stand on her own.  She urinates on herself and I have to bathe her a couple of times a day.  Last night while checking her front foreleg, I found wounds that were missed by the vet.  They were quite nasty and maggot infested.  I cleaned them out good and helped to get the excess drainage out.  The vet, who I had never met before the other night, came back b/c he had forgotten his clippers.  I told him and he said to just spray the area with fly spray.  He left a tube of bute paste he said to give 1 gm twice a day.  My girl who had been eating and drinking ok will now only take a few nibbles from your hand and a sip or two of water.  Her urine is very dark, almost appearing brownish in color.  I am very concerned for her and her babies.

Have any of you used bute paste for your goats?  I noticed the tube said for horses only.  Being that I don't know this vet well, as he was the only one who would return my call in the midst of the emergency I am double checking.

I have not seen the attackers again since that night but did hear some howling outside a little earlier.  Maybe they will do me the favor of venturing back onto my property since I can't seem to find them or their owners otherwise.

Thank you my friends for all your kind words and advice!


----------



## elevan (Aug 31, 2011)

I've never used bute paste...I'm sure someone on here has.  Having said that, I will say that MOST things that we use for goats are used off-label so while they are listed for one animal (horse, sheep, cattle) we find them useful for goats.  My vet regularly has me use items that aren't labeled for goats.

I'm pulling for your girl


----------



## Ms. Research (Aug 31, 2011)

I feel helpless, wishing I could do something.   I couldn't even point you in the right direction on how to bring some relief to your pregnant doe.  Hope someone who does can give you their opinion soon.  

All I can do is .  Hoping someone can help you and your remaining herd.  Bad enough the pain of loss, but this. 

Someone should help you find those wolf/hybrids and if not definitely their owners.  The owners should see what they allow to happen for their irresponsible actions.


----------



## freemotion (Aug 31, 2011)

Change your title to attract the attention of the most experienced goat people who often lurk but don't post much...but will jump in with great advice.  Something like "URGENT!  Bute for dog-attacked doe?  Dark urine, won't eat, help!"  That may be too long, but the more info you put in the title and the more urgent it sounds, the answers you need will come.  I opened this thread expecting details about catching the dogs or something to that effect.  You can edit your title by clicking on your first post and then hit the edit button.   

I don't like the dark urine detail.....that scares me the most......


----------



## foreverblu (Aug 31, 2011)

Thank you all and especially for advice on how this board works.  I am new to backyard herds and am finding it a godsend.


----------



## kstaven (Sep 1, 2011)

If she is not drinking the urine will be very dark. Same thing happens with humans who are running on the dehydrated side. 

Bute will relieve some pain and work as an anti-inflammatory.

Good that you flushed the wounds. Did he give you anything for infection?

Fluids and electrolytes are your first order of business as you don't want her to become any more dehydrated than dark urine would tend to indicate.


----------



## Island Creek Farm (Sep 1, 2011)

If you haven't, join dairygoatinfo.com.  I know there is some good info on injecting lactated ringer solution (IV fluid) over the shoulder area for severely dehydrated goats.  Would probably help.  Have not used bute on goats, have injected banamine for pain relief though, it seems that nothing is "actually" labeled for goats.  Good luck with your girl, and keep us posted!


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 1, 2011)

I agree, she needs hydrated, fast.  

There are posters who know how to hook them up to lactated ringers...I'm not one of them....I've always just used a drenching gun and squirted gatoraide / electrolytes down their throats, slowly, making sure they swallow.

I would probably give her propylene glycol as well for energy...Mix 4 parts PG to 1 part NutriDrench so that it flavors it / triggers them to swallow.  
How far along is she / when is she due?

I have never given Bute to a goat.  I can't find it listed on any of the 'big producers' meds lists...makes me wonder if they should get it or not, I know it's commonly used in horses.  I've used only Banamine and children's liquid ibuprofen at 2x the label dose.  You shouldn't give either long term (more than 2-3 doses) because of possible liver / kidney damage.

As for the antibiotic...I should have written this the 1st day you posted but, since I'm not a vet, I didn't want to come across as thinking I knew better than he did.  
I would have put her on Pen G, 2x a day for 10 days instead of the LA-200.  
Tetracycline's not a 'go to' for wounds like Pen G is.  I didn't suggest you switch because using them at the same time cancels out the effects of the Pen G.  

I would give her a big dose of Pen G (1cc per 15#) ASAP, get her hydrated, give her the prop. glycol / NutriDrench mix, banamine or ibuprofen, a shot of B vitamin (for energy and to hopefully stimulate her appetite) and some ProBios to keep the good bugs in her rumen that the antibiotics might kill.

In the long term, as long as she's not eating anything fibrous, you'll need to chop / grate / grind up some soft oats, alfalfa, grass hay, etc. and mix it w/ enough syrup or mollasses, and water so that you can squeeze it down her throat  w/ a large (60cc) syringe w/ the tip cut off.  W/out something to grind up the rumen can shut down and that will kill her.  
When I've done it in the past, I used sweet feed, quick oats, and alfalfa and used 20 cc of prop. glycol and just enough water to make it thin enough to go through the syringe easily.  
The longer you let it soak, the easier it is to grind / squirt through the syringe, so I'd start the next batch soaking after feeding the last one.

I'd give 3 -60cc syringes of the mix every 4-6 hours, followed by 3 60cc syringes of water or gatoraide.

Good luck.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 1, 2011)

I would consider giving her IV fluids or talk to the vet about giving her fluids under the skin(sub-q). I know a product called lactating rings is often recommended. But any type of dextrose, IV, fluid can be given under the skin for hydration. 


YOU are giving her injectable antibiotics daily?  high doses of pennicillin?( Sorry, I can't remember)

Perhaps drenching her twice a day with a drench called Magic. Around 8 ounces at a time of total Magic, so 2 ounces molasses, 4 ounces Kayro, 2 ounces corn oil.  Doesn't have to be exact, if you don't have one of the ingredience just use the other two, or add yogurt to the mix. A couple tablespoons of honey is high energy. 

High Energy Supplements:

Propylene Glycol 
Nutri-drench 
Dextrose 
TKM Solution 
Magic (1 part Molasses, 2 parts Kayro, 1 part Corn Oil) 
Glucose IV 

I have also made a drench consisting of one egg, 2 ounces of high fat yogurt, and 2 ounce of corn oil, with a little water added 


I realize she may be too weak to do all this drenching, then again, some of my sicker goats, seemed to enjoy the magic mixture. 


Long term, after say 3 days, she really needs roughage in her diet, drenching with a mash of alfalfa  pellets, watered down, 


B-complex shots 2 or 3 times a day.
a singe bo-se shot for energy. 

You can add vit E capsules cut open to the drenches. 

I am sorry for what you are going through.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 1, 2011)

Roll and I were posting at the same time.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 1, 2011)

This is the instructions for the above mentioned TKM, it is more complicated so I am listing it seperatly. I never have these products on hand, although this winter I would like to.  I normally use the magic recipee with great success. But what to share this with you. 


The TKM solution and instruction are listed below::: I have seen these products at local feed stores.  this is detailed instructions on how to treat a pregnant lamb/goat this is down during her pregnancy and needs more energy. It is actually referring to hypoglycemia during pregnancy, but it is the same in a nut shell, the animal needs caleries and energy. 





TKM Solution 
3- 500ml bottles Dextrose 
3- 500ml bottles of Amino Acid Solution (not concentrate) 
1 - 500ml bottle Calcium Glutenate 23% 
(This can be mixed up ahead of time & stored in a cool dry place) 
The goat also needs to receive the following - they need to be added when 
you get ready to administer the dose: 
Fortified B Complex - 5ml daily 
Thiamine - daily 
Vitamin C & E Supplements - daily 
Probiotics - I give a double calf dose every time I treat. If this doesn't 
stimulate their appetite, add 1 teaspoon of baking soda daily (add after you 
have mixed everything together!) 
I prefer the Loveland Industries Calf Pak for probiotics. When choosing 
probiotics make sure you purchase one that contains viable (live) 
probiotics. Be careful in handling probiotics; don't leave out in extreme 
heat or cold. The refrigerator is a good place to store them. For the 
Vitamins I have had a lot of success using Capra Products Capra-Tech 100 to 
provide the C & E, and the Capra Cool for the thiamin & additional 
probiotics. This seems like a remarkable amount of probiotics, but you are 
fighting a metabolic disorder that is on going. You will not cure it, but 
you can add support to enable the doe to live through pregnancy and 
hopefully deliver live kids. We give 20-60cc magic twice daily at first 
signs of toxemia. If the doe is completely off feed or becoming lethargic we 
give a loading dose of 4-8oz. of the TK Solution. It is then repeated every 
hour (2-4oz.) until the doe is standing, drinking, and urinating. We have 
also found it helpful to give an equal amount of water (drench if necessary) 
at every treatment. Once these does quit moving, they don't get up and 
drink, as they should.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 1, 2011)

Any one owning goats/sheep that doesn't have a lot of experience and doesn't already have their own energy supplements, should be copying and saving or printing out the information listed on this thread for an animal down needing energy, Between Roll and I, there are several good suggestions that can save your animal. I have brought back a completely downed animal with some of these methods. 


As far as the OPS doe, with all her enjuries she is fighting a very very tough battle. infection, stiffness, pain, depression.   I wouldn't give up on the girl yet, but I would prepare myself for the worst. 

Antibiotics would be the first thing I wold be doing for this doe. Pain medicines, like ibuprofen or from the vet, BAnimine(spelling?)

Then energy and vitamines.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Sep 1, 2011)

Lactated ringers can be injected sub-q over areas like shoulders or ribs.  Use a large syringe (30CC) and an 18 guage needle and inject it slowly.  Don't inject more than 20 cc in one site (or maybe a little less for a small goat). There will be a big bulge at the site but it will go down as her body absorbs it.  You can warm it slightly, but it shouldn't be too warm.  Your vet should be able to give you LR.


----------



## ksalvagno (Sep 1, 2011)

If you have a vet, I would be getting Banamine. Banamine would help her greatly. 1cc per 100 lbs once a day for 3 days. Don't go more than 3 days in a row on it though.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2011)

Lactated ringers SQ is as easy as giving a SQ shot, and it's *way* more efficient than drenching 30ml at a time..  You'll need a bag (or 2, or 5...) of lactated ringers and a disposable IV set..  I think I paid about $15 for the bag of ringers and an IV set was like $3, all from the vet..  Take the IV set and put a needle on the needle end..  Then poke the bag-end into the port on the bottom of the bag (it's obvious how it works once you see it)..  Then open the line with the little thumbwheel thingy and let it run a few seconds to get all the bubbles out, then close it off..  Then basically just poke the needle into the goat, across the ribs, just as you would if you were giving a shot.  Open the line back up and watch it start dripping.  Then you just stand there and watch and make sure the goat doesn't start moving around, jerking the needle out, etc..

I run 500ml into one side, then close the line, put a new needle on, and run the other 500ml into the other side.  That provides a liter of hydration.  It's really not that much fluid when you think about it, but you'd have to drench 33 times with a 30ml drench syringe to get the same amount into a goat...and no goat will stand for being drenched 33 times in a row..  

Once you do it a few times, you'll *prefer* using lactated ringers to drenching..  It's easier to do, and frankly it's easier on the goat.


----------



## redtailgal (Sep 1, 2011)

1


----------



## mydakota (Sep 1, 2011)

This post just makes me so very sad.  I am fairly new to goats and there are folks here that know a lot more about what you should be doing than I do, so I have no advice.  Just wanted you to know I am pulling for you though.  So sorry.


----------



## foreverblu (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks everyone, this willl be a quick reply as I am off for more supplies.  I have our girl drinking a little and I am an ICU nurse and feel comfortable doing most things for her if I have the knowledge of what to do for a goat vs human.   She is still trying to hang in there.  I have a bag of LR and NS, I need a IV tubing set or 60 cc syringe to get her more hydrated.  Thank you for all your care and concern it means a lot.   I will keep posting when I can.




THANK YOU!!!!!


----------



## terrilhb (Sep 1, 2011)

Sending you prayers and hugs.


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 1, 2011)

Please keep us posted.  Hoping she feels better soon.


----------



## freemotion (Sep 1, 2011)

Oh, I feel SO much better knowing you are an ICU nurse!  Your goaties are in great hands.  If anyone can pull them through, it will be you, along with help from the experienced ones here.  Please keep us updated, we are all pulling for you and your little goats.


----------



## elevan (Sep 1, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Oh, I feel SO much better knowing you are an ICU nurse!  Your goaties are in great hands.  If anyone can pull them through, it will be you, along with help from the experienced ones here.  Please keep us updated, we are all pulling for you and your little goats.


x2


----------



## kstaven (Sep 1, 2011)

Well done folks!  Always great to see how contributions come together to help another.


----------



## foreverblu (Sep 1, 2011)

Hello my friends,

It is coming to the end of another long exhausting day.  My little doe Shirley is a tough cookie.  She is still trying to hang in there.  Today she got one liter IV bolus of normusol with 5% dextrose, B vitamins IV, 250ml of hetastarch, and some amoxicillin IV.  I had a veternarian friend of my help me out with hopefully getting her on the right track.  

I also gave her probiotics plus paste, concentrated source of live naturally occurring microorganisms and vitamins.  It is made by Goats Prefer. It has Vitamins A, C, D3, E, B12, Niacin, Choline, lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium, lactobacillus plantarum, lactobacillus casei, and lactobacillus acidophilus DDS.  She got a dose of power punch by goats prefer, ingredients: propylene glycol, cane molasses, lactic acid, dextrose, crude protien, L-lysine, L-Methionine, L-Arginine, L-Proline, L-Serine, L-Trytophan, Crude Fat, Crude Fiber, Selenium, Zinc, Vitamins A, D3, E, B12, riboflavin, and niacin. Along with various probiotics.

She is not eating or drinking this evening though I am unsure if that is because she is now well hydrated or what.  She seems to be crying out alot now and I am unsure if that is a sign of progress or pain.  The doc didn't have any banamine and suggested aspirin mixed with molasses.  I still have the tube of bute, but I am nervous on whether it is appropriate to give her.  She is so worn out she cannot stand.  The leg I feared to be broken does not appear to be.  After getting much of the inflammation down she is able to kick it with no problem.  Ask me how I know 

Thank you all as always.  It is nice to know I have a warm, welcoming place to turn in times of such tragedy.  Things are still touch and go.  I will keep you all posted.

PS: The boys seem to be doing very well, especially the youngster.  Dad is still quite sore and depressed, but is eating and drinking well.  He just doesn't know what to do without his ladies :/


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 1, 2011)




----------



## elevan (Sep 1, 2011)

I'd probably give her a dose or 2 (no more) of children's liquid ibuprofen 2x label dose by weight orally and then switch her to asprin at 325mg per 10# of body weight orally to help her with the pain.  I know you're concerned about the bute...and since you don't want to give that and you can't get banamine...but I'd get some sort of pain medication into her.


----------



## Ms. Research (Sep 1, 2011)

Sending Good Karma to Shirley from New Jersey.    And to the "tough cookie" of a nurse.  My hats off.  Know it's touch and go, but that little kick is a nice sign.  

Also glad to hear about the boys. Youngsters usually do bounce back a little quicker.  At least Dad is eating.  Hoping that's a good sign but can truly understand the loss and truly believe animals mourn.


----------

