# Worming,preventive or as needed?



## Rita (Sep 3, 2018)

my first two Nigerian Goats , a buck and a doe now 9 months old, the breeder said to preventively use wormer every few months because they are not very effective these days. Yesterday I picked up a 3 month old doe, and this breeder said he never does preventive , he just checks them regularly for signs of worms. Like looking inside eyelids etc. I imagine there are people on both sides of this issue, so let me have it, what are the pros and cons of each and is Ivermectin the only one I need, and how to dose.

Rita


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## Mike CHS (Sep 3, 2018)

I won't weigh in on goats since we have sheep but I see just joined today and wanted to say Welcome.  I'm pretty sure the methods for goats and sheep are similar but I'm not completely sure so will wait for the goat people.  

If you want to do Famacha training the link is a good place to do it and you get the Certificate and Famacha Card to use when you check those eyelids.  The eyelids don't tell you the whole story about your worm load though.

https://web.uri.edu/sheepngoat/famacha/


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## Rita (Sep 3, 2018)

Mike CHS said:


> I won't weigh in on goats since we have sheep but I see just joined today and wanted to say Welcome.  I'm pretty sure the methods for goats and sheep are similar but I'm not completely sure so will wait for the goat people.
> 
> If you want to do Famacha training the link is a good place to do it and you get the Certificate and Famacha Card to use when you check those eyelids.  The eyelids don't tell you the whole story about your worm load though.
> 
> https://web.uri.edu/sheepngoat/famacha/


Thank you for the link I will check that out for certain


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## Mike CHS (Sep 3, 2018)

You are very welcome.  The course is fairly easy and doesn't take a whole lot of time.  It has some further uses though and in Tennessee even qualifies you for some State benefits depending on the number of livestock you have.


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## Latestarter (Sep 3, 2018)

Part of the reason that worms have become "super worms" and harder to control/eradicate is from over/improper use of anthelmintics (wormers). You should NOT just deworm for the sake of deworming. You should have a fecal analysis done to determine the worm load (and type worms) the goat is carrying, and if warranted, then deworm, using the proper dewormer, and proper dosage, applied the proper number of times, over the specified period of time, followed by another fecal analysis to determine the efficacy of the protocol used. Ideally you are looking for a 95%+ reduction in worm load. 

All goats (and sheep) have worms to some extent. The issue is how big a load can the animal carry and still do well. Some animals can carry huge loads with very little effect on them, while others can have relatively light loads and have a horrible time maintaining optimum condition. Over time, the plan should be to keep and breed animals that have the ability to manage their own worm loads and thrive, and to cull those animals that are in constant need of dewormers to maintain and survive vice thrive.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 3, 2018)

@Mike CHS  & @Latestarter  have already given you great advice and I second their responses!

I will add just a little to this.

First, Nigerian dwarfs are one of the easiest keepers and are not typically parasite prone- having said that they still can and do get parasitic loads that may be too much and warrant the use of a dewormer.

FAMACHA is great and if you can take one of the classes it will be beneficial. HOWEVER, yep, that however is important!

FAMACHA was designed for use of determining high load Barberpole worm. Barberpole is a blood sucker and therefore very dangerous. FAMACHA was designed to ALSO be used with the Mc Masters method which determines fecal egg count by a measured standard. EPG (eggs per gram)
Most classes teaching FAMACHA and EPG using Mc Masters method is really geared toward the meat producers industry not dairy goats. And yes, there is a difference.
Dairy goats are simply not the same.
The info is great and should be utilized but understand it is not the whole picture when dealing with dairy goats. There are plenty of other parasites that are not blood suckers but are still robbing the goat of nutrients.  
Weather conditions will play a role throughout the seasons as well. 
 I have a few articles on the subject (3 parts) I will attach that may help you to understand what everyone is talking about. It sure can get confusing when new to goats!

Understanding-   https://www.backyardherds.com/resources/understanding-famacha-fecal-analysis.56/

McMasters Part1-   https://www.backyardherds.com/resources/the-mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis.55/

McMasters Part 2-  https://www.backyardherds.com/resources/mcmasters-method-fecal-analysis-part2.57/


I would like to add that it is rare but there are those that have issues with meningeal worm on their land and they do use more of a systematic approach because of this. It is necessary in those cases.


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## Sheepshape (Sep 3, 2018)

Again, I'm one of the Sheople and not a Goatee....but they're pretty similar when it comes to wormers. Great advice already given and excellent links to follow, but here's what we do 'across the Pond'. 'Routine worming' i.e worming just because there's an 'r' in the month, or there's Winter on the way, for example, shouldn't happen. Worming should be for a reason, and ideally after a faecal egg count. Overuse of wormers (as Southern by choice says) leads to wormer resistance.

Over here I listen to the NADIS webinar (National Animal Disease Information Service) which is e-mailed monthly. Temperature, rainfall etc. for the previous month and forecast for the coming month predicts which areas of the country are likely to see a spike in worm shedding (or liver fluke snail proliferation) and advises on the likelihood of needing to worm/fluke animals.

Most farm animal vets provide faecal egg counts and will advise which wormers to use.

Worming pre-tupping is fairly widespread, but the advice again is only to worm thinner animals, younger animals, and those with loose bowels in order to prevent wormer resistance. Animals develop a degree of resistance to worms as they age.

Over here we are also taught to rotate wormers in order to prevent resistance. There are some fancy names for them, but we generally use the terms, clear, white and orange.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Sep 3, 2018)

Been raising Nubians almost 30 years.  Participated in a lot of studies that UT Vet school did.  Dr. Sharon Patton is world renowned parasitologist I was blessed to have worked with and learned a lot.

If your goats are truly browser- eating +18 inches and higher off the ground your parasite pressure is almost zero.  Most of us, unfortunately graze goats on grass and that put tremendous parasite pressure on them as parasites live ground level to a foot off the ground.  Rotating pastures only works if you can get animals off land for at least a year, and that includes your barns.  Not much chance of that.  

Kids are at risk of tapeworm causing blockages due to small intestinal lumen.  None of ivomectin family gets tapes.  This is a different tape than dog/cat /flea and uses a slug/snail/pasture mite instead.  Tapes are visible in manure and usually are not a problem for adult goat.  But,I just hate seeing them in manure.

Find out if lungworm and/or liver flukes are an issue where you live. If they are, you will need to use something to get them.  

Menegeal deer worm is where ever white tail deer are, pretty much all of Tennessee.  Dr. Patton at  UT Vet School says ivomec monthly may be effective to kill them before they get into spine and brain.  Once in spine and brain nothing works to kill them.  It is awful to loose them this way.

The fecal tests are looking for eggs.  Understand you can deworm and have negative fecal but goat die from overload.  Encysted L4 of barberpole in the intestinal walls  become active after you deworm and kill adults, but do not shed eggs and do not show up on fecal.  Dr Patton recommends 2 deworming 10 days apart.  She also says all new animals should be quarantined for 30 days, dewormed every ten days and fecals done.  She says vet school has found parasite resistance is most often brought in with new purchases.

Famacha is a lifesaver, true enough.  I use it to keep an eye on things.  If you live in TN and get a chance to take Master Goat classes they are great!


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## Rita (Sep 3, 2018)

Great advice from all, I am going to look at all the literature you have all posted here and call a couple of vets to see what they are seeing lately so I can get a sense of what I may be looking at and what is more prolific here. Thanks to all of you!


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## mystang89 (Sep 4, 2018)

Welcome to the forum Rita! This post makes me feel better about my decision. I'm a sheep person as well but when it comes to working I don't do it unless I have a very good reason, I.E there are worms, because I was worried the parasites would become resistant to it. Nice to see my reasoning wasnt alone.


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## Latestarter (Sep 4, 2018)

mystang89 said:


> when it comes to _working_ I don't do it unless I have a very good reason


 ME either!  I am retired! 

Pretty sure it was supposed to be "worming"...


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## mystang89 (Sep 4, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> ME either!  I am retired!
> 
> Pretty sure it was supposed to be "worming"...


LOL! Yep.


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