# Got a climber. (Aw damn)



## Blue Sky (Dec 11, 2016)

Three year old, Pyratolian  lived w me two years no problems. Has dog "family" he gets along with. Neutered, eats like a prince. Cost prohibitive to amend hog wire fence, some barbed wire at the top will fix, but he is hoppi
ng out like a rabbit. Help! Very heavy coyote presence worst I've seen.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 11, 2016)

Can you run a hot wire at the top?


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2016)

Is this your dog or a dog you just got?
I am confused to the post...


----------



## Blue Sky (Dec 11, 2016)

I've had him two years. Everything was OK til a couple of weeks ago when he started climbing. He has a stable dog family. 80 sheep to watch. New heavy coyote presence. Will coyotes lure a guardian?


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2016)

What do you mean by dog family?
How many other LGD's do you have?

Yes they will lure.
Ususally however when I see this it is because a farm is severely UNDERDOGGED.

Underdogging creates a whole host of issues.  One of which is climbing out /getting over fences.

When predation is heavy dogs become highly stressed, overworked, and will often even place themselves outside the livestock area to keep predators from coming in.


----------



## Blue Sky (Dec 12, 2016)

I have six dogs. 3 male 3 female. One is retired. The rest he guards with in 12 hour shifts. Until this started he had the freedom of the farm. About 90 sheep on 27 acres.


----------



## Mini Horses (Dec 12, 2016)

Are you saying 6 LGDs???  Or?   "Sounds" like he's guarding dogs?  I know SBC will have great reply but she's probably as confused as I am right now.     What's with 12 hr shifts?


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 12, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> Are you saying 6 LGDs???  Or?   "Sounds" like he's guarding dogs?  I know SBC will have great reply but she's probably as confused as I am right now.     What's with 12 hr shifts?



If i understand the statement correctly i believe they are saying. 

The rest(dogs) he guards with, in 12 hour shifts.

So i'm assuming something like 3 dogs go out for 12hrs and then rotate with the other 3 dogs. I would think 6 guard dogs would be enough for 90 sheep, no? The 12hr shifts i have never heard of either though.


----------



## BrendaMNgri (Dec 12, 2016)

Hi there,

OK I too am a little confused here.  Do you have and run, six Livestock Guardian Dogs in 2 shifts of 3 dogs for 12 hours?

Your dog is responding to the increased threat.  He's doing his job - but of course, you need him to stay inside.

I second the suggestion above, of hot wire at top of fence - will typically stop them quickly (unless they figure out to dig under…then…you need to go to Plan B).  

And here is another idea, and honestly the one I would try first: since the dog feels he needs to do more, can you run more dogs with him than you have been, to increase presence?  This is my opinion only based on my experience, but guardian dog packs are only really effective as packs when heavy predator pressure strikes, when they are *all or mostly all, run as a single, big pack -* i.e., all together, not two there, one over in that paddock, three over there in that field, i.e, separated.  Separation kind of defeats the whole purpose.  There is undeniable strength in numbers and a psychological advantage.  Predators sense it and understand and usually back off or move on.  Building a feasible and cohesive pack takes much time and patience but can be done.   I'm a huge advocate of running enough dogs -they are pack animals and thrive in a family pack situation.

Hope you come in here again soon, and clarify so we can better help you.  Please don't give up on him he's done good for you for a long time.


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 12, 2016)

So he used to have freedom of the farm and is now in an enclosed area? Well I bet it's frustrating for him to not be able to  guard all his land. Hot wire is a good plan. 

I don't get the shift thing either,  sorry. 

I don't think there's a lot of support for chain drags on here...  I'm sure Southern will elaborate but I don't personally want to slow down a dog who may be facing predators who are potentially already faster than him.


----------



## BrendaMNgri (Dec 12, 2016)

I use a short chain prudently - and must add, the one dog here who does jump, still jumped hauling a 30 pound chain, over my 6 ft fence, to go after a feral dog pack.  So I think again, this is one of those "what works for one, might not for another" - which is why I seconded the hot wire, and advocated running the dogs together.  I never keep chains on a dog, its always brief and temporary, to make them 'soak' and slow down, more than anything.  I never support tire drags - or ridiculous "yokes".  Inhumane and of no use.  Well hopefully the OP comes back and clarifies for us


----------



## NH homesteader (Dec 12, 2016)

Ah yes...  Permanent chains would be a bad thing,  sorry I didn't get that you only used them temporarily. I am hoping for clarification here also...


----------



## Blue Sky (Dec 12, 2016)

Running in shifts suits my situation. 2-4 dogs work together depending on the pasture and flock size and composition. If you all have any additional advice about deterring climbing I would appreciate it.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 12, 2016)

If the coyote population has increased, can you add another to the guardian pack? One with 2 legs and a rifle? Maybe decreasing that population will help.


----------



## Blue Sky (Dec 12, 2016)

Good idea   Neighbors have begun to notice and shoot.  Here we both have away from farm jobs. Big ruckus w all dogs tonight but climber stayed put after defeating containment this a.m. I wish I could get into his head. I want him safe and working.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 13, 2016)

Blue Sky said:


> Good idea   Neighbors have begun to notice and shoot.  Here we both have away from farm jobs. Big ruckus w all dogs tonight but climber stayed put after defeating containment this a.m. I wish I could get into his head. I want him safe and working.



May he thinks that is what he is doing? Not enough guards inside the fence so he hops the fence to chase the threat farther away? I dont have any LGD experience so thats just a guess.


----------



## BrendaMNgri (Dec 13, 2016)

Misfitmorgan for someone with no LGD experience, this is a very experienced and astute observation on your part that shows great understanding.
Unfortunately farming is never part time.  Because people leave for outside jobs and leave stock and situations unattended, that is usually when the problems start or increase.
I have a part time night job.  I set things up when I leave, to reduce chances of issues and loss and have had none to date.
If predators are heavy sheep and cattle go into the barns for the night even with my good fencing and many dogs.  I still set it up to lessen stress on dogs and stock.
Dogs are just one option.  There are so many methods out there to be used.  Here is a link to some more.
People and Carnivores
Personally, I don't get stuck on "it has to be like this". I stay open to trying options until I find what works. 
In Nevada we have a saying, if you shoot one coyote, three come to it's funeral.  
I think several people here gave you some very practical ideas and options to consider.  Good luck.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 13, 2016)

BrendaMNgri said:


> In Nevada we have a saying, if you shoot one coyote, three come to it's funeral.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 13, 2016)

BrendaMNgri said:


> Misfitmorgan for someone with no LGD experience, this is a very experienced and astute observation on your part that shows great understanding.
> Unfortunately farming is never part time.  Because people leave for outside jobs and leave stock and situations unattended, that is usually when the problems start or increase.
> I have a part time night job.  I set things up when I leave, to reduce chances of issues and loss and have had none to date.
> If predators are heavy sheep and cattle go into the barns for the night even with my good fencing and many dogs.  I still set it up to lessen stress on dogs and stock.
> ...



I've owned and trained dogs my whole life so i understand a lot about them just never had an LGD and im told they are a whole different critter.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 13, 2016)

BrendaMNgri said:


> In Nevada we have a saying, if you shoot one coyote, three come to it's funeral.



Wouldn't that make it even easier to reduce the population if they come to you?


----------



## Baymule (Dec 13, 2016)




----------



## Blue Sky (Dec 19, 2016)

Had to be away from site. He's on a cable for now. I hate it but he's OK and contained. I work retail so my life is never my own this time of year, holiday creep eliminated my Thanksgiving and reduced Christmas to eight hours off Christmas day. Off topic but fatigue is a factor in solving this. On the bright side he doesn't bolt and leave but will spend hours in bounds. He's choosy. A barbed wire topper seems the best option. Happy holidays everyone.


----------



## Bruce (Dec 19, 2016)

I suppose barbed wire is the cheapest option but I think a hot wire would work better. A good zap will likely keep the dog from trying again, predators too. But he might go over the barbed wire and get ripped up in the process.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 19, 2016)

Barbed wire is NOT a good option.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Dec 20, 2016)

I agree barbed wire would be a horrible idea. You could be setting yourself up for 100s of dollar in vet bills, or putting the dog down.

A hot wire would be much safer.


----------

