# golf ball size lump in Nubians neck



## byardbabe (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi everyone,
I need your help.  My 6 year old Nubian has developed a golf ball size lump in her neck.  Shortly after they kidded (she had 2 healthy Doelings) I stared feeding my girls alfafal pellets, because they always look a little rough.( ie thin).  They loved them and finished them off in seconds.  After about 6 weeks I noticed 2 of my Doe's looked like their thyroids were enlarged, not a great lot but a little.  Then almost overnight the one doe had a golf ball size lump.  I stopped feeding the alfalfa pellets, but the lump is still there unchanged.  It is hard, not at all squishy and doesn't feel like an abcess.  She is eating fine, acting fine, no temp. ect.  I recently had a fecal done and she was wormy and had cocci. She has been treated for both, but the lump still remains.  It dosen't bother her to push on it, she has no trouble swallowing.  They have loose goat mineral as well as kelp changed daily.  I am at my wits end as to what this may be, and would greatly appreciate any help or comments.
Thanks


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 4, 2012)

*I'm having the exact same problem!!!! 

My yearling goats right lymph node is swollen and I can't for the life of me figure out why. She's been to the vet and the vet put her on penicillin and banamine, which reduced the soft tissue swelling, but not the actual lymph node. The vet wants to do an ultrasound next. :/

I do feed alfalfa.

Mine is eating acting fine too.

I've also dewormed recently.

I also feed loose minerals AND kelp.

And I am at my wits end too.

I know I didn't post anything useful but maybe we can help each other out since I am having the same problem.

Do you have a pic of your girl?*


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## byardbabe (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi, 
I am so glad to hear from you! I am not glad you have the same problem, but at least I feel like I have someone to talk with.  I have some pictures, I have even resized them, but for the life of me I don't know how to post them.  I have even visited the site which is suppose to explain how to post.  Let me try again!


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## TGreenhut (Aug 4, 2012)

Have you tested for CL? Is it a swollen lymph node or thyroid? pics would help


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## byardbabe (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi, 
Thanks for your response,  It is a swollen thyroid gland, actually both sides seem to be swollen but the one side is much bigger.  I have tried to upload pictures, but am unable to do so. I am not sure how to do it.  I have resized them but don't know what to do from there.  If someone could help me I would appreciate it.
Thanks


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Aug 4, 2012)

It sounds like it very well could be CL. Read these as they might help. I am about to eat so this is a fast post but I will try and get back to you about it.


http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/FAQ/cl.aspx
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/caseouslymphadenitis.html


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## byardbabe (Aug 4, 2012)

Hi, straw hat kiko's, 
Thanks for your response.  I have a closed herd, I have had them for 3 years  without any problems.   It doesn't feel like an abcess it is really hard and not attached to the skin.  Also it is not in the usual location (from pictures I have looked at) for a lymph node.  All of this happened after I started giving them alfalfa pellets. One othre thing I have done different this year is to put apple cider vinegar in their water, I also offer plain water.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 4, 2012)

Have you removed the alfalfa yet? There was somewhere that I read that the alfalfa pellets could be the cause. You could try shredded beet pulp to help put weight on.


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## TGreenhut (Aug 4, 2012)

byardbabe said:
			
		

> Hi, straw hat kiko's,
> Thanks for your response.  I have a closed herd, I have had them for 3 years  without any problems.   It doesn't feel like an abcess it is really hard and not attached to the skin.  Also it is not in the usual location (from pictures I have looked at) for a lymph node.  All of this happened after I started giving them alfalfa pellets. One othre thing I have done different this year is to put apple cider vinegar in their water, I also offer plain water.


I agree with you, from the pictures it doesn't look like CL. CL abscesses occur where the _lymph nodes_ are, not the thyroid gland. I'd suggest removing the alfalfa and waiting a couple weeks. If it doesn't go away in a couple weeks OR if at *any* point after removing the alfalfa, it looks _worse_, I'd go to a vet.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Aug 4, 2012)

Here are a few posts from another question that may concern CL. 

I would have her tested for CL. You can do a blood test or you can send the puss in for testing. That is the most accurate test. CL is not such a big deal if you can control it. In order to do that you must be able to keep and eye on the animal often and be able to separate them from others when they get a lump, lance it, clean it, allow it to heal and you can then return her. If she has CL internally then you really should get rid of her. You can not control it if it is internal and it is more dangerous. Internal CL is much more common in sheep than goats, so that could be a concern.



			
				Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> HankTheTank said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 5, 2012)

*So yours is actually the thyroid? 

My girls is actually the lymph node itself but it's NOT an abscess.

She was tested clean for CAE and CL 5 months ago when I first got her, and I have a closed herd, but I am resending out blood tests tomorrow just to make sure.

I guess the next step is an ultrasound for me. The vet is stumped too. :/

Pictures of my girl:











*


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## ksalvagno (Aug 5, 2012)

This is from another forum:

I just went thru this with my nubians.. The lump developed overnight. In fact 4 of my goats got it in a 24 hour period. So.. If u have iodine from kidding and dipping the navels. Paint the iodine on their hairless part of their tail. If in 24 hrs it disappears your girls are deficient. Then if u can get the kelp it is a good choice. Mine went thru 10 lbs fast. The goiter should go.down in a couple of days. Now one of mine did develope an abscess that we just had lance d and tested at the Vets. It was a staph infection. Thankfully! Oh if u dont get the kelp paint the tailweb for a week. Commercial feed doesn't have iodized salt in it which is why the deficiencies.


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## byardbabe (Aug 5, 2012)

Thanks everybody for the responses.  They were all very helpful.  I have stopped feeding the alfalfa pellets.  They do have free choice kelp, along with loose minerals.  I think I will try putting iodine on her tail though.  I do have one queston with this though, if she is not iodine deficient will this hurt her?  Also WhiteMountainsRanch keep me posted on your situation, I am really interested in what is going on with your Nubian.  I will keep on eye on the lump to make sure if it is an abscess, I will get it cleaned out ect.  One very good point I didn't know was that CL can be internal or external.  I understand about the external causing an abscess, but how do goats get it internally?  Does the blood test tell if it is internal or external?
Thanks again everyone I'll keep you posted.


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## byardbabe (Aug 5, 2012)

Hi again,
One thing I did forget to mention is I have been adding apple cider vinegar to their water for about a year(they are suppose to like the taste better and drink more water).  Well I did a little research and found out that apple cider vinegar over long term use can actually deplete iodine supply.  So out goes the apple cider vinegar, and back to just plain water for the girls!


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## Chris (Aug 5, 2012)

If you find out that it is indeed a Iodine Deficiency then what I would do is offer a good Iodized Salt free choice.
Cargill has a good one that you should be able to get at any good feed mill, 
http://www.cargill.com/salt/products/agriculture/champions-choice/cc-iodized-block-brick/index.jsp 


Chris


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## Chris (Aug 5, 2012)

byardbabe said:
			
		

> Hi again,
> One thing I did forget to mention is I have been adding apple cider vinegar to their water for about a year(they are suppose to like the taste better and drink more water).  Well I did a little research and found out that apple cider vinegar over long term use can actually deplete iodine supply.  So out goes the apple cider vinegar, and back to just plain water for the girls!


I have found that ACV can do more harm than good to any animal.
Offering ACV can/will lowering potassium levels, decreased bone density, can damage the throat cause stomach problems, and can lower calcium levels in the body.

There are also cons in increasing acid levels of any type with in the body, decreased bone density, can decreases calcium levels in the body and can cause over all poor health.

Chris


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## byardbabe (Aug 5, 2012)

Thanks Chris, 
Sometimes I think I try to do all the right things and end up doing all the wrong.  I think I read to much.  Anyway we are done with the ACV.  I will try painting the tail with iodine that I use to dip the navel's.   Thanks again to everyone.  You have all been great!


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## babsbag (Aug 5, 2012)

byardbabe said:
			
		

> Does the blood test tell if it is internal or external?


It will not tell you if it is internal or external. The results are called a titer and they will be a in ratio type format 1:8, 1:16, 1:32 etc.  

Here is a article from UC Davis that talks about CL testing.


"Caseous Lymphadenitis (CL) diagnostics
Caseous Lymphadenitis, CL, caused by Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, can present a diagnostic
challenge in sheep and goats. Abscess material collected via syringe or surgical drainage
(external abscesses) or at necropsy (internal abscesses) can be submitted for bacterial culture.
Serum samples are tested for CL antibodies with a synergistic hemolysin inhibition (SHI) test. CL
abscesses, particularly external ones, can be very effectively protected from the animals immune
system, resulting in low SHI titers. A 2-fold rise in paired serum samples taken 3-4 weeks apart
indicates recent infection. Titers ≥1:256 are rarely seen in animals without internal abscess. Titers
1:8 to 1:128 can be found in both infected and uninfected animals; however, the higher the
titer, the more likely an animal is infected. For diagnosis of internal abscess, the SHI test has a sensitivity
of about 87% and a specificity of about 80%."


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 7, 2012)

*Sent in the blood today for CAE and CL testing on 2 of my girls. I sure pray to god it isn't CL. *


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## ragdollcatlady (Aug 7, 2012)

Try looking up Milk Goiter. I think that is what you may be looking at. Seems like the nubians with a lot of milk in their lines are more susceptible. I read another post about some folks having that in their Nubs.


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## TGreenhut (Aug 7, 2012)

ragdollcatlady said:
			
		

> Try looking up Milk Goiter. I think that is what you may be looking at. Seems like the nubians with a lot of milk in their lines are more susceptible. I read another post about some folks having that in their Nubs.


I thought that too but milk neck only occurs in goats still nursing/ drinking milk, and WhiteMountainsRanch's doe is not still drinking milk- or is she?? WhiteMountainsRanch?


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## ragdollcatlady (Aug 7, 2012)

A general search for milk goiter in goats will bring you to tons of sites that also talk about regular goiter, thyroid issues, how things in the neck area work, issues others have had and their results from treatments......it's a good place to start.....


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 7, 2012)

*She is about 15 months old, so nope sorry not still drinking milk. 



I also 'iodined' her tail web area today. I have kelp out for them but we'll see if this works. 



It's actually getting bigger, and I'm wondering if the vet was right about it being a reactive lymph node and infected, but for some reason the penicillin just wasn't able to saturate it. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 10, 2012)

*Any updates on your girl?






I swabbed the tail web with iodine on mine~ no response.

I also sent out the blood for CL testing again, waiting for results. *


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## Chris (Aug 10, 2012)

Also keep in mind that a toxic level of iodine will also cause an enlarged thyroid and hyperthyroidism.

Chris


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 13, 2012)

*Any update on your girl?





I got my testing back for my girl today from UC Davis. Negative for both CAE and CL, again. Phew! But now to figure out what the heck it is!!!*


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## TGreenhut (Aug 13, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Any update on your girl?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you just blood test? I've heard that blood tests aren't very accurate at determining CL. A breeder told me that her goat had an abscess and blood tested her for CL, results came back negative. But when she tested the fluid in the abscess, CL test came back positive. Now I don't know how you would go about doing that, but by any chance can you test the fluid in the lump?

EDIT: Just read your other post. I take ^^^ that back- if it's just a swelling and not an abscess then you really wouldn't be able to test the "fluid" because there is none...

 I really hope you find out what the problem is!!!!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 13, 2012)

*Also, don't know if it matters but she's been tested twice in the last six months and both times it's been negative. She's also come from a 100% clean herd and has no other contact with ANY other goats AT ALL.*


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## byardbabe (Aug 14, 2012)

WhiteMountain Ranch,
I am glad everything has come back negative on your girl!  Mine still has her lump.  It doesn't appear to have changed in size, it still doesn''t seem to bother her.  She is active, eating well ect.  She looks great, her coat is shiny and glossy.   So I will just keep waiting to see what, if anything happens.  
PS you place looks beautiful!


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