# 10 mo GP and goats



## mzgarden (Aug 26, 2014)

First post, but I've been reading a lot of good information.
A little background - we have 2- 7 mo Nubian does and ~30 chickens.  We started having visitors on the property at night and had been talking about getting a Pyr - so we made the leap.  We found a 10 mo Pyr that had been raised with cows, lambs and chickens and an adult Pyr. The people were getting rid of their animals, had rehomed the adult and we brought Daisy home.  She's been with us only 4 days.  She walks on a leash very well, understands no and leave it.  She has 4 acres to patrol and goes on perimeter walks, on leash, 4-5 times a day.  

Here's where we have a couple questions and could use direction or encouragement.
It seems all the LGD training materials assume you have a puppy -- is there training material for starting with a 'teenager'?  
Has anyone used a dangle stick for short periods, if the teenager decides to play with the goats or chickens?  For sure, there have been zero injuries, and she is not off leash with the animals yet but she will be at some point and being young, I'm trying to plan for options.
The goats want nothing to do with her yet.  I'm assuming it's ok to just let them take their time and allow them to be together only under supervision and time will take care of the bonding?

thanks for reading.


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## Baymule (Aug 26, 2014)

I have very limited experience with only GP. She was given to us at 10 months old because she killed chickens. I had to overcome a lot of mistakes made by her previous owners. She is now the best darn chicken guard in the world!

I will watch this thread with interest because we are buying 8 acres and moving. I tell Paris (our GP) that she will have either goats or sheep to guard and lots of room, but to my knowledge, she has never seen either one. Paris is 5 years old so it should be interesting.

I will ask you this, can you pen your GP and the goats next to each other so they can get aquainted through the fence while you walk away, but lurk nearby and watch?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 26, 2014)

First a few questions...

Is the property fully fenced?
Do you have a dry lot or pen area adjacent to the livestock, someplace beside but not necessarily in with the goats?

At her age she should be fully capable of being in full time with livestock after a few days. You will more than likely need to work more with the goats than the dog. If this is their first time around a LGD it can take time. Some goats will act frantic and run... this is a test for the LGD. What does she do?
We hold the goats and allow the dogs to come up and sniff and see them.. the dogs will then walk away.

Often, using a transition pen where the dog can be while the goats are right along the fence builds trust as the LGD is not barking, pawing or trying to "get" the animal. Your goal is to only have her in the pen when you cannot be there to monitor the progress. 

Getting the LGD in with the goats ASAP is important. When the dog is on lead how long is the lead? A 30 ft training lead is best as you can give her 19 ft or so at a time, at her age and size do not give all 30 feet, as if she takes off you will go down and possibly get injured. I imagine she is 100+ lbs. 

It is ok if the goats butt her or bully her. You can also see how she reacts. You want submission. NEVER let your LGD "play" with a goat...EVER!

This is a great age as long as she isn't damaged goods or was allowed to play with livestock. Recorrecting chasing and other bad habits is very difficult especially for the first time LGD owner.

In the reverse...
We recently acquired an adult Lamancha that has been raised with Kangals, she had no idea what our PYRS were and was quite nervous. She was in our quarrantine pen adjacent to the main feild where 2 adult pyrs are 3pyr pups 4months old and an Anatolian pup 5 months old. She learned by watching the dogs were safe but when she went into the main field she still wasn't sure of the "white" things... yet the Toli she was fine. Toli's/Kangals are similar. She adjusted in 2 days. 

Goats often will take considerable time to accept a LGD. Not all LGD's/Livestock necessarily bond. That is an overated issue. The point is the LGD learns this is hers to protect and she will protect at all cost.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 26, 2014)

I forgot...


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## mzgarden (Aug 27, 2014)

Baymule & SBC, thanks so much, really appreciate the questions.  Sorry this is long. 

The 4 acres is perimeter fenced and goats, chickens and pigs have their own cattle panel fenced areas within that space.  Daisy has all the open space around/between the pens and is not challenging anyone through the fences;  no barking at them, pawing or standing up on the fence.  

When we take Daisy into the goat pen, she is on about 12 feet of lead.  She does not pull against the lead or challenge the goats - but the goats are keeping their distance.  today, Dh took Daisy into the goat pen on the lead and the goats moved to the other end of the rectangle.  He walked her toward them until they got nervous, then he/Daisy sit down and waited for them to settle. They start again and repeat.  She does not challenge, lunge or try to get to them but she is watchful.  DH is home during the day working on the property so he has the opportunity to do the perimeter walks and introductions.

Each evening, after dinner, we typically let the goats and chickens mingle in one fenced area that is also open to the barn.  We have Daisy on a lead with us there now.  We walk her through the barn and sit in the space with her on the lead with no issues.  Last night, we let her off the lead but walked with her (shadowing).  She was fine for about 30 minutes - exploring, walking around, laying down.  No chicken or goat chasing.  Then one of the goats darted into the barn, she followed and chased her around the interior of the barn.  No touch, no bark, just more like jogging behind.  I mean, the barn is pretty small - if she wanted to 'catch' the goat, she could have easily cornered her, but it was more like = you're playing?  I wanna play too.  We immediately grabbed her collar, put her on the ground in submission, loudly told her no, re-leashed her and put her outside the gate.  We then brought the goat over to where Daisy could see us and loved on her, hopefully telling Daisy she was ours.   

As to bad habits - we tried to be aware of that.  We watched her in the pasture with two lambs, a cow and pretty young calf.  Most of the time, she was near, but not in the middle of the animals.  The lambs were frisking and she ambled over to check it out but we saw no bumping or 'playing' with the lambs or the calf so after about an 30 minutes, we thought it looked ok.

I think I would be more confident if the goats actually did butt her a bit, but they are still shying away, so I can't really tell how things will go off leash.  She's not the calm, laying down adult Pyr I've been around on other goat farms.  But she is also only 10 months old and only 4 days in her new home and surrounded by animals that have never been exposed to a dog before.  Maybe time will bring confidence for me, the goats and Daisy.

All your suggestions and ideas are appreciated.


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## Baymule (Aug 28, 2014)

Here is a link about Paris.

http://www.backyardherds.com/thread...heep-goats-or-chase-bears-hawk-post-26.23771/

and one about her and the ducks.....

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/not-my-ducks.28849/

Mostly it took patience. And more patience plus time. I think she had been left alone unsupervised on 3 acres with free range chickens running everywhere. What's a bored puppy to do? Oh wait, there's SQUEAKY TOYS!! Her owners would come home from work to find soggy, dead chickens. When they finally figured out it was her, they punished her terribly.

 By the time we got her, she HATED chickens and she would charge their coop snarling and barking. I would scold her for it and she would dive under the deck and hide. Then I would wait a short bit, call her out and talk sweet to her. I would walk toward the coop and she would give me that "I am in trouble look" and dive under the deck. This was repeated over and over again. I never raised my voice and never struck her.

The turning point came when I added a run on the coop to accommodate more chickens. Paris wouldn't come near it. I called her to me and she gave me that "uh-uh, no way" look and dived for cover. As I built and worked on it, she would sniff around it when I went in the house, but the second she saw me peeking, she ran for the deck. Our other dog Parker was all up in my face, in the way, "helping" but not Paris.

I finished the hoop run, put the young chicks in it and then I would sit in the doorway, just watching and enjoying them. Slowly, Paris got closer and closer to me over the course of weeks. Then she figured out that I was stationed there solely to heap praise and love on her. So it played out that I sat in the doorway of the run, Paris came up for loving, Parker hopped in the run and got even more loving, PLUS baby chick feed! It didn't take long before Paris was enjoying baby chick feed. I praised her profusely for eating my baby chick feed all up! The Paris would hop in the run when I opened the door for "her" chick feed, then would come to me for attention. All the while surrounded by young chicks, which she utterly ignored. I talked to her the whole time telling her these were Momma's chickens and she wasn't supposed to hurt them. She must have listened.

I had a crippled rooster in that batch of chicks and used him for bait. It might sound mean, but if Paris and Parker were going to kill one, I didn't want it to be a pullet. Besides, the crippled rooster was easy to catch! I let him loose for awhile, supervised while the dogs played. Then daily I left him out longer and longer and finally I went in the house and left him alone with the dogs. It progressed until I could let all the chickens out, starting with supervised to longer and longer periods of time until I could let the chickens out all day and totally leave the house and be gone all day.

You are fortunate in that it sounds like your dog has not been misused or taught bad habits. I think you are on the right track, Southern has given you very good advice, she is the LGD QUEEN!!!

That is my experience with my GP in my small in town back yard. What worked for me was heaps of praise for the smallest thing she did right and quiet disapproval for what she did wrong. I have never even raised my hand at this dog. I truly believe to do so would destroy something deep inside her. All it takes is quiet words of disappointment and she is devastated.

Please keep us updated on your dog's progress. We will be moving to a house with 8 acres by the end of the year and I want small livestock. So Paris and Parker will embark on a new adventure and we all will have a learning curve. I'll be watching this thread with great interest!


Here is a link to a post I made when Parker, our other dog "played" with a chicken.

http://www.theeasygarden.com/threads/doofus-the-retardo-rooster-and-parker-the-destroyer-dog.13093/


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## mzgarden (Aug 28, 2014)

Excellent, thank you.  The help is very much appreciated.
So, you ask for an update.  This is day 6 with Daisy.  We've had some ups and downs.  The ups are that when she walks by the chickens, they squall and run and she walks past them without batting an eye.  This morning she was off leash/nose-to-nose through the fence with our most curious 8mo doe (goat) without barking, pawing, jumping, etc.  I just had a neighboring farmer stop by to return some equipment and meet Daisy.  She was behind fence, in her 4 perimeter acres and barked when the barn door was opened.  Walked to the fence quietly and let me introduce her through the gate.  As he and I stepped away and chatted, she went back and laid down by her dog house and went to sleep.  She is offleash with the ranging chickens and unless they come near her doghouse/food area, she mostly is uninterested.  When she is interested, it's because she is picking them up and taking them back to where she believes they belong.  No injuries, except to chicken-pride.

I think the challenges are more related to being headstrong and wanting attention from us.  In 6 days, she has learned to walk respectfully on a lead, and voice directions for  Leave it, No and Sit, but is usually testing our persistence and I guess our 'alpha-ness.'  Knowing and consistently doing are two different things.  She doesn't appear to have that soft heart others talk about.  When she misbehaves and we correct her, she seems to pout more than to be upset that we are unhappy with her.  Maybe that's her 'teenage' attitude.

The wanting attention - standing up with paws on the gates or barn door when DH is on one side and she is on the other (She has become very attached to him).  and then there's the one doe-chasing event in the barn I talked about in the previous post.  And then there's the barn cats - nuff said I suppose.

All things considered, factoring in our inexperience, her young age and our animal's inexperience with a dog, I 'think' we're doing ok.  It is exhausting  because we want to give her as much supervised exposure as possible and it's nerve wracking to give her a new opportunity but to be so watchful all the time.  We watch for good behavior and shower her with 'good girl' and 'good Daisy' when we catch her doing what we want. Hopefully she cares if we're happy with her and will be putting effort into doing the things that get her positive rewards.

I am looking forward to the time when we can feel comfortable with her off leash and with the goats in the larger fenced pasture trusting her to guard and not chase or play with them.

Again thanks.  It's a huge help to know others with experience are willing to hear the good and the bad and the questions and give pointers.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 28, 2014)

It does not sound like she was actually chasing in the barn. When a goat runs suddenly it is not unusual for the LGD to start to take off. Sometimes you need to sit back and watch or you may be interrupting a natural process. Don't assume a chase is in effect. Let it play out. If you never let it play out then you will be correcting the dog without any real merit and it confuses the animal. At this point 6 days is long enough. The goats are what you need to work with. Put leads on the does, hook them to the fence stay with them and bring the pyr over.

Lead walking is at this point is borderline as to whether you want the dog to bond with you or the goats. Remember never try to overtrain a LGD. Basic commands are fine yet remember the LGD MUST make decisions for their herd. There will always be a bit of defiance in a LGD, there should be.  LGD's must be independant thinkers as they see, hear, and smell more than you do. 

Sounds like you are doing a great job!
Time to release her and allow her to be in with the goats. Your original post said she was raised in with goats so this should not be an issue. The more you keep her away and are only allowing her near them is when on lead will cause the human/dog relationship to increase.

We specialize in training and breeding for the family farm and promote a program of human and livestock bonding but there is a fine line of how much time you spend with her.

The dog needs to be able to prove herself and also see your trust and confidence. 



> I think the challenges are more related to being headstrong and wanting attention from us. In 6 days, she has learned to walk respectfully on a lead, and voice directions for Leave it, No and Sit, *but is usually testing our persistence and I guess our 'alpha-ness.*' *Knowing and consistently doing are two different things. She doesn't appear to have that soft heart others talk about.* When she misbehaves and we correct her, she seems to pout more than to be upset that we are unhappy with her. Maybe that's her 'teenage' attitude.



Could you expand on the highlighted part. what does she do to test you?
What is she not consistent in?

The soft heart is more dependent on dominant positive alpha, negative alpha, positive submissive, negative submissive type.


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## mzgarden (Aug 28, 2014)

Wow, you guys are so helpful!  When I said: *but is usually testing our persistence and I guess our 'alpha-ness.*' *Knowing and consistently doing are two different things*   in my mind, I'm thinking -- if she is nosing around the chicken nesting boxes and we tell her to 'leave it' - and she does, but then she comes back and tries again later, maybe she's testing us.  Are we going to consistently tell her to leave it each time?

I actually took her into the goat pen off the lead today at lunch with no problems.  I guess I'm going to have to get out of the way    So, we will do as you suggest and then stop hovering and let the dog do her work and let the goats adjust.  I really do appreciate the input!


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## babsbag (Aug 28, 2014)

I brought home my first LGD when she was 4 months old. My goats had never seen a dog and they were more of a problem that the dog. The goats would back up, run away, head butt, and stomp their feet; that was actually quite comical. The pup would lay down and submit to the goats' obnoxious spoiled brat behavior and I was scared to death. I thought for sure they were going to stomp on the pup, but that never happened. Finally the goats learned that the dog was not a problem and now they just ignore her.

I won't say that my animals are bonded. The LGD does like the goat kids and lets them literally play and jump on her, but she doesn't seem to particularly have strong feelings for the does. But then on the other hand, when a goat leaves my farm the LGDs follow the truck or car to the end of the pasture whining and barking so perhaps they are more bonded than it appears.

The dogs do their job, I have two and they work as a team. I have seen the female run to face the danger and the male simply walks between the goats and the gate as if to say "you aren't going out there right now" and the goats seem to listen. It is really amazing to watch.

When I bring in new chickens and goats I have to do some slow introductions; really slow with the chickens. The dogs know they are not part of their flock and they will kill them. I put new chickens in a pen in the barn for a few days so they can see and not touch. Goats are easier, usually only a few minutes. But if it is a small kid then I have to be watchful as my male LGD will mouth it and try to grab it by the neck at times. Not sure what his intention is, but it only takes one NO and a few minutes and he is ok. Strange was to get to know someone.   After that brief introduction he is fine with them.

Sounds like your girl is doing well and if she ignores the chickens you are a giant step ahead of many.

Is she looking for eggs in the nesting boxes...mine know that any eggs they find are theirs. YUMMY.  But they can't get to the nesting boxes.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 28, 2014)

I have a feeling your girl will do fine. 
I commend you for your thoughtfulness and diligence in taking your girl onto your farm. Taking her in to acclimate her, supervising and being watchful are all the things RIGHT! 


As far as the nesting boxes... and  

Pyrs as well as most LGD's LOVE eggs! They lay in wait to snatch the next fresh laid egg. 
Best way to solve that really is to make sure boxes are high and also put a barrier up. I will see if I can get some pics for you.
We just moved our chickens because we downsized from 250 chickens to under 100. We moved the nesting boxes but haven't had time to put up the "block" yet... so needless to say, the 3 4 month old pyr pups sneak in and grab them. I have to be diligent and get out several times a day to gather or by nightfal I won't have ANY left. The adult dogs do the same.

LGD breeds really are not like other dogs, I often say they are their own "Species". They are not obedience dogs and never will be. People will try pepper, sprays etc to discourage the egg seeking but I have never seen anything work. I am a retired trainer (partially out of retirement having LGD's LOL) and I can tell you they are not like a GSD or other "trainable" dogs.

Personally, I love this about the breeds. Just remember if you have venison prepared and your LGD in the house make sure you put the food up on the refrigerator if you need to leave the room for any reason. 

We appreciate how much our dogs do so we give grace. LOL
Some of our dogs...
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/remember-never-bond-with-a-lgd.28258/
couldn't find the thread but  thought you might get a chuckle out of this...



 

So lets see a pic of your new girl! Oh yeah, and your goats!


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## mzgarden (Aug 29, 2014)

All:again thanks.  I keep saying it but I truly am so glad to have someone to share with and guide us.  I'll get pics today.
So, here's the update.  
Last night, we let Eleanor and Katie (goats) out of the pen into the pasture.  We sat on benches and the girls munched on left over cucumber vines we have piled up in the fire pit, happy as could be.  Daisy sat, laid down and watched.  Occasionally she would circle one way around the fire pit and the goats would dance around, but came right back to munching.  It was a bit of a funny dance to watch.  Eventually Daisy laid down where she could watch them.  We felt like this was big progress.  
This morning after everyone was fed and we played with Daisy, we put the goats on leads and tied them to fence posts next to each other.  DH sat between the goats and I walked Daisy to them on a lead.  Daisy was good, the goats were horrible.  They were terrified - flipped themselves upside down, practically strangled themselves trying to run.  Daisy picked which one to investigate first -Eleanor who has been the most curious about Daisy.  and I just went along with her.  Nose in goat ears, nose in goat butt, thorough going over while the goat screamed and jerked around.  Daisy put her big old paw up on Eleanor's back - not pressing down or jumping on her - just paw up.  She put her mouth on the goats back - not biting and not aggressive, not really sure what she was doing.   The goat never stood up for herself and Daisy did not lay down or take any kind of submission posture.  Not sure what that means.   Then Daisy decided to investigate Katie.  Katie is our herd queen by nature.  She too freaked out, tried to run, flipped herself over and DH was trying to steady her.  Daisy pretty much did the same with Katie - nosing, pawing, mouthing.  Goats were terrified and Daisy seemed relaxed - interested but relaxed.  After about 20 minutes, Daisy turned and wandered off and we put the goats into their pen.  They ran up to the 2nd level of their 'goat palace' and whined.  About 30 minutes later, I walked Daisy (no leash) into their pen to drop off some more alfalfa for them - they danced around and she just looked at them and followed me back out.  I gave no direction to Daisy and she didn't need any - Goaties on the other hand could use some chill pills.  

We are moving the nesting boxes to make it more difficult for her to get to them - we'll see how that works.  Daisy does seem to enjoy walking through the flock of chickens and watching them scatter - but she doesn't chase them at all.  She just looks at us with that Pyr smile and walks on.

Whew!  We are learning a lot and appreciate all the pointers.  Keep it coming.  We are on day 7 .....


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## Southern by choice (Aug 29, 2014)

Ok so maybe I should have been more clear. That is what happens when I am trying to reply quickly and do too many things at once. You really don't want the goats that stressed as you can see the stress also triggered an undesirable reaction from Daisy. *No putting mouth on goats*. The paw, generally wouldn't be acceptable either however it is my suspicion she may have been trying to calm the goats, as if to say "settle down- it's ok". I think it was more confusion for the dog. Flailing goats is never good. Good that Daisy eventually walked off. If Daisy is stable and not chasing, mouthing, or grabbing the goats then leave them all to work it out. It could be months, weeks, days before the goats accept the dog. That is ok.

A few years back we had brought some Kikos in, these does had only ever been around herding dogs. The dogs were released and sent out to bring the goats home from out in the pastures. Needless to say the kiko does were terrified of dogs, they would run, get scared and take off. One doe was flat out mean-huge horns and hated the dogs! The dogs stayed with them and would desperately try to gain acceptance. The other does came around but the one, UGH! She would take those horns and really bail the dogs. Two of the does kidded the following Feb (we got the does in June) both does allowed the dogs to be right there and clean the kids and the dogs guarded those kids with everything they had. The dogs at the time were 11 months and 15months.
March the big doe with the big horns that hated the dogs kidded... overnight- we missed everything but the next am we were fortunate enough to get pics of "Alana" FINALLY accepting the dogs as she released her kids to them, she gave her blessing. Sounds goofy I know but it really choked me up, tears and all. I watched my pyr and my Toli so gently submit and she reached over and nose touched the male pyr, after that there were never any issues. The female Toli would crawl on her belly to the kids to not upset them. Alana would allow her kids to go to the dogs, sleep with the dogs, and she never had a care about her kids being safe.

The point in that was to let you know it can take time. Our dogs were very young yet we know them and trust them. Most wouldn't dream of that young of a LGD to be alone with goats during kidding. Knowing your dog/s and trusting them is really important. I have pics that are on a thread here but they are from before BYH went to a new format so I can't retrieve them. I have pictures of this event on my website...
http://www.winginitfarms.com/apps/photos/
Click on Livestock Guardians on the Job (in the photos section) and it is the 7th pic in the slideshow.

I apologize for not laying out how to better do the lead intro. It is something you want to do for about 30 seconds or more but without traumatizing the goats. I know- _Now I tell you this_.

Cannot wait for pics!


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## mzgarden (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks for the clarification.  That approach for 30 seconds will make it much more palatable for everyone.  We are not in a hurry and we are ok waiting weeks or months for calm and stable acceptance as long as no bad behaviors crop up.

I hope I got the pictures loaded right.  One is Daisy listening at the front door of the barn - barn kitties are in the driveway sunning themselves.  The other is of Eleanor and Katie in their goat palace, which is a separate 60x100' fenced pen within the 4 fenced acres Daisy has the run of.

Keep the feedback coming as we clearly have much to learn.  BTW, we have two mottoes on the Homestead:
1)  It's all about the animals   and 2) We do this to ourselves, you know.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 29, 2014)

Love the pics! She has such an inquisitive expression!
Your goats are adorable!

Like your motto's! 
I think my new motto should be "what were we thinking?" 
Life revolves around our goats now. Seriously.

So... you want to come build a palace for my goats? 

My female pyr would make that porch her throne! She perches herself on the tallest spool in the field so she can supervise everything. 
Sad when people in the community only know you by your Pyr that sits on her throne and "owns" the farm. LOL


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## mzgarden (Aug 29, 2014)

Here's a specific question -- Daisy has decided to camp out in the barn during the day instead of being in the pasture where the goats/chickens/pigs are.  For a visual, think of a long rectangle  starting at one short end: road, house, driveway, shop, barn, pastures.   
We can put her out in the pastures and close the gates to keep her out of the barn during the day but then she mostly lays at one of the gates watching for us to come back.  She has two shelters, her own food and water in the pastures.  The barn is where the chicken nesting boxes and food are and where the goats and half the chickens spend the night (other half are in a tractor/coop outside).  At night, we leave the back barn door and pasture gates open for her.  Is this a worrisome sign?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 29, 2014)

no, for the most part LGD's are nocturnal animals. It is at night (generally speaking) where there is predator issues so not unusual for her to snooze in the daytime. Not sure what region you are in but today and yesterday it was really hot... dogs all wrer in the goathouse or the chicken house snoozing away only too wake and patrol when needed. Of course no matter what they can hear and suddenly they are just there and you never see them coming or hear them coming. They are good at that. She is also still a pup and still learning how to be a guardian.

If you walk by a gate or she sees you and hops up (for attention) you can either say "hi girl" or ignore her altogether. 
At this age we still make sure our pups/dogs get am and pm rubs and loves from us. Pups we have a whole program that we do to help with getting their energy out.

If whenever you take her out to get family time and you go to put her back in the field tell her "OK, time for you to go to work".
Right now I would limit how much time you spend walking with her and even the amount of attention. She will learn the goats are first priority.

Observing behaviors is important she may be a watcher and not a patroller. We have a watcher paired with a patroller for all our teams. It is the ideal pairing. I love the watchers. LOL
Patrollers generally will run out and run the fenceline for the whole property/field checkng that all is in order.
This starts very early. Our pups will do this by 8 weeks- you can tell really early who the patrollers are. They are usually more playful, always wanting to play. On the go, find ways to amuse themselves. Watchers find a spot to see everything and get to a place for the best view, many will find the highest spot- a hill, mound, manure pile, spool, platform etc. They sit and watch (often looks like they are lazy and doing nothing LOL) they generally stay close to the herd or within the vicinity. The list goes on. Most watchers are dominant.


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## mzgarden (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks, that's helpful.  We are no longer walking her on her lead at all and no need for perimeter walks as she appears to understand the fence lines.  We generally make specific time to play with just her - she's selected a few items to play with - some long sticks she has found and believe it or not a long skinny piece of carpeting we had used as weed block in a garden. That's a funny sight to see her dragging and swinging that carpeting around.  We will continue to put her in the pastures during the day and opening everything up at night, after the animals have been put to bed.  She does seem to gravitate to following us when we are out working during the day, so we'll have to be extra-vigilant about when and what kind of attention we pay to her when it's not play time.  I don't want to make this harder on her just because we're newbies.  Again, thanks (I'm repeating myself, I know).


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## babsbag (Aug 29, 2014)

My dogs live with the goats 24/7 but they ALWAYS come to see what I am doing and to say HI. They also will lay by the gate if I am working nearby; at least for a little while. If they don't come to say HI, it is either REALLY HOT, or they are doing something exciting like stalking a lizard, or worse yet, a new chicken. They much prefer human contact over goats but they don't complain when I leave.

Goats can sure be drama queens.


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## mzgarden (Aug 30, 2014)

So, not such a good day today.  Daisy ran up to the goat pen barking several times today and chased chickens into a barn stall.  Cornered one & had it in her mouth.  She didn't kill it, but she did not want to give it up either.  Took me 30 minutes to round up the chickens and coax/catch and put them into their stall for the night.  She scared them badly enough they did not want to come into the barn.  Earlier in the day we had been playing with her carpet (she has several carpet squares and a long piece of carpeting she plays with).  When we were done, I told her she was a good girl and went to pat her head like I usually do and she closed her mouth around my wrist. She didn't hurt me but I'll admit it scared me.

She's such a sweet dog.  I really want this to work.

We will try again tomorrow and hope for a better day.


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## babsbag (Aug 31, 2014)

I don't have much advice, SouthernbyChoice is the LGD expert   But I do know that she has mentioned that you should never play with the dog in the field. Are you taking her out when you play?

Not sure about the wrist...that is a little unnerving.

About the chickens...I lost one yesterday and my dogs are 18 months and 4 years. I am pretty sure it was my 18 month old, but still...he is old enough to know better. At this point I can only correct him when I catch him. Fortunately he does drop them when I yell at him. He really does know better, it is just too much fun; they run and squawk.

I know that is not advice. Just some sympathy.


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## mzgarden (Aug 31, 2014)

Thank you for all your help.  At this point, we chose to rehome Daisy with a family that had an adult Pyr and livestock already acclimated.  Their dog is partially disabled and they were looking for a 'teenager' to add.   This has been a terribly difficult decision but we felt Daisy was lonely being alone and needed to be in a place where she had something to do and other animals to keep her company.

I'm crying because I miss her already and I feel like we failed.  We read and read but we had much more to learn than we realized.  We believe this is the best for Daisy.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 31, 2014)

I am very sorry to hear this.

I don't think it is a matter of failure but not enough time.
I think for your future if you really feel you need a LG you may want to consider a donkey or Llama. LG Dogs require a great deal of time especially pups and it is a long process. Daisy at 10 months was more than likely past the worst phases but needing adjustment time. Poultry is the biggest hurdle. Having 4 adults that we worked through the poultry phase and now working with 4 pups I know long term it is worth it. ALL of our animals are covered by our LGD's. We use to lose so many birds to predators then after we got the dogs and trained them... no loss. Short term loss long term gain.

I do wonder if she may have been lonely but also dogs generally hit their energy time 2x day most often when it is cool and they want to play. The mouth on the arm... well only you can judge, most pyrs do "mouth wrists" in a playful way. Something we train out of our dogs because of the shear power and I have had a tooth hit a nerve and know what that is like. We also recommend to others to not allow it. 

Ultimately you need to do what you feel comfortable with.
Hope Daisy adjusts and finds a permanent home.

I hope you stick around BYHand share your adventures with your goats!


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## mzgarden (Aug 31, 2014)

thank you.  You have been most helpful and generous.  I think Daisy is going to turn out to be a wonderful LGD and I'm happy to be able to rehome her quickly.  Her new family has other dogs including their adult Pyr, 4 boys and much more livestock than we have.  They also live close, use the same vet we do and are active in 4H so it's not a 'blind adoption.'  We will meet up with them here and there.  She will be happier being busier and more people at home will give her the time she needs.  We will learn more and come around again.  Again, thanks for your coaching.  We learned so much.


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## Baymule (Aug 31, 2014)

I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you and Daisy. But you have to do what is best for all, you and the dog. Now that you have been exposed to LGD's maybe you will find a mature dog that won't have the puppy issues.


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