# Kid Watch Feb/March:  Jenny day 138



## TheMixedBag (Feb 5, 2011)

We've only got 2 does for this year, and the first one to kid *should* be Milky Way, but at the rate Jenny's going, she may kid first.

Pics are recent as of 2/04.

Jenny's udder. Already a good size bigger than it was, it's roughly 1/3 the size of her FF udder. First possible due date Feb. 21, most likely due date March 17th (pen-bred, I caught her bred on those 2 dates)






Milky's udder. Latest possible due date is....end of February. We got her Oct. 14, she was never bred while she was here. Her ligaments are softening, her udder is filling even slower. She's been building this one since mid December.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 5, 2011)

Good luck with your kidding.


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## helmstead (Feb 5, 2011)

Can't wait to see babies, so much fun!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

Good luck!!  Love the freckles on the udders!!!  


  Baby pics!!


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 6, 2011)

I think Jenny may actually be a carrier for the Sable gene, or at least I'm hoping so. She's bred to an Alpine buck, her sire was homozygous white, and I *think* her dam was hetero white and hetero Sable, so we'll see.

Edit: Went and got new pics. Am I going blind or is there a pretty good difference?









Such a teeny belly for twins...


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## ksalvagno (Feb 6, 2011)

It does look like the udders are filling.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Feb 6, 2011)

They're a filling!!!


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## julieq (Feb 6, 2011)

Definitely filling!


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't know what's going on, but maybe I should have done my kid check earlier. I barely even felt a twitch (and I'm not 100% sure I did), but I can't feel the kids moving. I can feel lumps on her belly, but no movement from them. There's no discharge, and sometimes they won't be in the same place, but if they are dead, would she abort now, or would she carry them to term? Is the movement something I should be really concerned about, or could it just be a sign of no room left in her uterus?


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## 4hmama (Feb 7, 2011)

Sometimes, as they get closer to delivery, it's harder to feel because they don't have much room to move.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 7, 2011)

I wouldn't be concerned about movement. If the kids are dead she will abort. But sometimes you just don't see movement. I've seen very little movement with my girls and have had live births. Good luck with your births.


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm concerned with her because of how much movement I'm used to feeling. I've been kicked in the face feeling for them before, and to not have them moving at all is odd. She's not acting off, though, so I guess it's just going to be a wait and see.


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 10, 2011)

All is fine. Her ligs are getting harder to find every day, and her udder's finally filling out on the side, so it looks like it just might be the 18th.

Last time I ever buy a doe "due to kid any day".

Also, just for the fun of it, this was her udder the day after we got her, and the second one was this morning (2/09)


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## ksalvagno (Feb 10, 2011)

At least it is even now.


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## glenolam (Feb 10, 2011)

TheMixedBag...did you steal the top view picture of my FF Fudgie the day before she kidded and use it for Milky's top view picture?!?  (JK!)

The pic you posted on page 1 looks exactly like the pic I posted of her on my thread !


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## themrslove (Feb 10, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> At least it is even now.


Ahahahaha!  That is what I was thinking!


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## Zanzabeez (Feb 10, 2011)

I have my fingers crossed for you to get healthy doelings from your girls.  Also sending some sable vibes for Jenny.

Wow, Milky's udder has evened out nicely too. Congrats!

Tracy


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 12, 2011)

themrslove said:
			
		

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I think that left teat may always be "blown", but she should be nice and easy to milk (I don't have to milk her, yay me! Her new owners get to have fun with that, she's being sold a few days after she kids).

Jenny's ligs are going in and out, they were really soft and sunken in this morning, and she lost her plug yesterday morning, so hopefully she'll kid in the next week or two.


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 20, 2011)

No real updates, just bigger udders, bigger bellies, and nekkid goats!

The weather has been absurdly warm this week (80+), so after about 2 days of it and the goats panting and not coming outside, I broke down and shaved everyone. I'm fitting blankets for them for Monday, but after that it's  more of the same, so yeah. They were definitely happy to get the clip, and I'll post nekkid pics of Maverick and Milky soon, but this was Jenny's clip right after she was ultrasounded. (on another note, this was also the first time she posed properly, and I've been practicing it with her off and on-her first show is in May)


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Feb 20, 2011)

Can't wait for babies!!!!!!!!!!


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 20, 2011)

I got this pic before my phone died (may have to take it back-had it on the charger all night), but this was Milky this morning. She *was* a nice red roan, but now she's a nice silver/salt/pepper roan. Her udder's looking nice, too. Much bigger than it has been in recent days.

I'll try to get better pics in a few hours.


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 21, 2011)

Milky Way kidded this morning around 10 am. By the time I got out there around 10:20, the buckling was already mostly dry and the doeling had been born for maybe 5 minutes, tops. Both are healthy and happy, so we'll see how they do for tonight. I'll have them maybe another 2 weeks before their new owner picks them and Milky up.

The doeling, a beautiful black and tan








The buckling, a red bay. He's definitely bigger than his sister.


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## helmstead (Feb 21, 2011)

Congrats!!


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 21, 2011)

Yeah...that mess...blame Milky. She decided in her attempts to "nest", she would pull everything possible from OUTSIDE the pen inside....


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## ksalvagno (Feb 21, 2011)

Very cute!


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## rebelINny (Feb 22, 2011)

Congrats on healthy twins!!


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Feb 22, 2011)

Nice kids!!!

You aren't selling Jenny, are you????


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## jodief100 (Feb 22, 2011)

They are very cute!


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## dkluzier (Feb 22, 2011)

Yah Milky!!  

Lovely kids  Congratulations!!


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 22, 2011)

Dreaming Of Goats said:
			
		

> Nice kids!!!
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> You aren't selling Jenny, are you????


Definitely not. She's on semi-permanent lease so long as I put her on milk test this year. After that, she's pretty much mine, but there's no way I'm selling her. Her granddam was 2005 breed leader for milking, and her dam produces over a gallon and a half easily.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Feb 22, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

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Wow!!! How are the saanen's personalities??? Are they nice? Pushy? How big are they? I'm guessing they produce a lot of milk...


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## glenolam (Feb 22, 2011)

Saanan's are supposedly the best milk producers out there, very hardy and have great temperments.

TMB - I really can't believe how much Milky Way looks like my Fudgie.  She kidded 2 weeks ago and had a solid chocolate one and another that looks just like her.  Must be the nubian in them!


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## TheMixedBag (Feb 27, 2011)

Dreaming Of Goats said:
			
		

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She was semi-wild when we got her, and she calmed down in about 3 days with us milking her twice a day. Even on poor feed (I *really* didn't know what I was doing) she produced nearly a gallon as a FF. Her sire's pedigree complete with milking records (in pounds) is linked at the bottom.

She's head-shy, but easy-going and willing to let you do what you want with her. No fight on the stand, either for milking or trimming, I can vaccinate her without holding her. 

She's actually kinda small for her breed, I'd guess she's around 150-ish with the pregnancy, and in the mid 30's for inches on height.

http://horseofcorff.com/id35_huey.htm


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## poorboys (Feb 27, 2011)

BEAUTIFUL BABIES, CONGRATS


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 4, 2011)

These photos are from day 137, but whatever. She hasn't changed at all from yesterday, so it works!

Anyways, since February has come and gone, and I have a definite day I saw her bred in October (17th, to be exact), according to a calculator, her day 150 is March 16th, putting her at day 138 today. Her udder's looking great (or at least I think so-opinions? It'll only get bigger, no real change in shape), she's fairly sunken in all  around, and ligs are soft, so I don't see how she can make it to day 150. Her belly's huge, so here's to hoping there's at least 2 in there!

I switched their feed today, I need to know if it sounds OK. Both girls get a scoop of alfalfa pellets once daily, mixed with Manna Pro loose minerals, and I'm slowly adding in beet pulp. They got a quarter scoop dry this morning mixed in. Maverick (our buck) gets a scoop of alfalfa pellets to himself, same mineral, and I gave him a handful of beet pulp dry this morning. I'll be giving Probios paste this afternoon to help with the change, since I started doing that, I haven't had anyone scour from missed feedings or feed changes.

Also-I'm debating right now. I have the choice to keep either her daughter (25% Saanen, 50% Alpine), or save the money and buy a purebred Saanen doe. Jenny's grand-dam was 2004 breed leader (I got the year wrong). In case it helps, the buck we bred her to is posted below.


















Dill's Mighty Maverick, 2010/11 herdsire. Can post front and back shots as well.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

I don't know much about sanaans... but she looks like most of her nutrients are going to kids and milk production and not much is going to her.  I don't think I have seen a goat with such protruding hip bones before.
What feed are you switching her to? and if you aren't already, I suggest feeding her at least 1 cup of BOSS per day... something to help her bulk up.
*Edited to add: * I *LOVE* the Doctor Who quote in your signature!!!    !!!!   I miss Chistopher Eccleston.... and David Tennant... but more the brooding #9.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 4, 2011)

She's been like that. It's  hereditary. She's got a good layer of fat over her ribs, and quite frankly, if she keeps it up, she'll be overweight (dairy goats are not supposed to be fat, and her genetics make it look so much worse than it ever is). 

For example-this was her back in July, dry and open. She was overweight at this point, she'd been dry for a month already. 






Of course, you also have to remember that the farther along she gets, and the closer she gets to kidding, the skinnier she'll look as everything's pulled farther down.


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> dairy goats are not supposed to be fat,


No, you're right, overconditioning isn't a good thing BUT  IMO she needs more condition.  She isn't just dairy conditioned, she's eating muscle protein to support her growing kids.  

For instance, here is a Saanen breeder with several photos of does in milk...showing good dairy condition.
http://www.olddominiondairygoats.com/emily.htm


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

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that was my thinking exactly... no need to hide 
ETA: _That sanaan doe that is pictured in that link you posted is in prime condition! What a marvelous creature!_


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## helmstead (Mar 4, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> that was my thinking exactly... no need to hide


Well, it's been a kinda rough day!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 4, 2011)

I've noticed.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 5, 2011)

Well, I've listed everything she's being fed (did forget to add alfalfa hay flakes here and there, and canola oil on the pellets), but she never eats it all,  pregnant or no, she leaves a bunch and nibbles here and there. She's also definitely the herd queen, so no getting shoved away from feed.

It may have to do with how many she's having, how close she is to kidding (day 139 now, tomorrow she'd be safe to kid) and how much that's pulling down. It may also have a lot to do with how young she was when she was first bred (she'll never reach full height or weight). One way or the other, if I bump up her feed now, she's never going to be able to kid easily. So long as she's got a good layer of fat over her ribs (she does), I'm not horribly concerned with her hip bones, she'll probably look a lot better a day or so after she kids.

Also-I'll bet you anything the doe that's linked wasn't so great a milker (she may have been, that's just my first impression from the page-her looks are mentioned, but no performance records, DHIR, or anything else). Jenny's grand-dam milked 5200 lb for 2004, and her siblings are milking well over 3000 lb each. She milked nearly a gallon as a FF, and is probably going to put a lot more into this year. That alone causes her to look like a walking skeleton.

I'm not trying to argue that she's in perfect condition, I know she's not. She's just never going to look like that doe, she wasn't bred to, and I'll never get her into that kind of condition.


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## helmstead (Mar 5, 2011)

You seem very set in your idea that underconditioned does are better milkers than properly conditioned does.  I totally disagree with you.  

Yes, lactating does loose some condition, but should never become walking skeletons.

And, I'm not only referring to her hips...look at her spinal process, her shoulders, etc etc.  She has no muscling along the top line at all.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm not saying they should be-never said that anywhere. I said that because she is, she will always look like that. Her siblings do, her dam did, her daughter does. She is not a doe who  will ever be in show condition (and yes, that is what the other doe is-show condition). If I can feed her what I do and she doesn't gain any condition, then odds are she isn't going to. She's not being underfed, not by a long shot, and she's definitely clear of worms, so there's not a whole lot I can do.

I think where a lot of my opinions come from is that far too many people breed dairy goats for show, and they're almost all over-conditioned. My nubian is a perfect example. She's overweight, but a shining example of being in show condition.

(if I'm sounding testy, it's because I've had this discussion before when someone was threatening to call animal control because my goats were "too skinny".)


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 5, 2011)

I will add, given what yesterday held* (Edited to fix spelling error) * for Helmstead, neither she or I are coming at you, and we are not trying to give you deconstructive criticism. _I say this, because you started getting defensive in your response._

I do agree that your doe shows signs of being underconditioned(hips, shoulders, spine protruding), even for a milking doe. She doesn't look emaciated(can't make out individual ribs), so that is good. And the picture you gave for last year, even though it is a tad glowing, shows her in a better condition that she is now.
From what you have been saying, you do what you can to give her proper nutrition. No one here is disputing that.   Perhaps your vet can help you find something with more protein to help her bulk up, not to be confused with fattening up.  Fattening only happens when you have nice young meat goats you are trying to sell to the Greeks! 
It _IS_ possible to get her into more of a good(maybe not perfect) condition.
Also, I would have your vet run some tests for worms, parasites, and/or diseases that might be causing this with her. Better to be safe than sorry.

I really hope that your vet can help you find & fix what is causing this in her.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 5, 2011)

(like I said, if I'm getting testy, sorry. NOT a fun conversation explaining dairy goats).

She's had a fecal done, her last dose of Ivomec was last week. She's clear of worms. She won't do BOSS, I can't  get Calf Manna, I started her on beet pulp yesterday. And as fuzzy as the picture is, her condition this summer wasn't much better. Her spinal process was still visible, and it drove me bug nuts.

found a better picture of her summer condition. This one was from June, she was drying off at this point. It's pretty much her average condition. 
http://s446.photobucket.com/albums/...le Uploads/?action=view&current=Photo0019.jpg

And this is from this morning, before I threw a blanket over her (it went from high 70's to mid 30's...will be back up this afternoon) and everyone else.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 5, 2011)

Actually... on second thought rather than hijack your kidding thread I've moved this to a new thread.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 5, 2011)

She cannot possibly hold out until 150. Yet again,  she had white mucous, with a tiny bit of amber discharge hanging (maybe 3/4 inch). Her udder looks fuller, but knowing her dam, she'll be an 8 hour filler.


The bad news is, Milky Way finally started discharging this morning, after almost 2 weeks without much more than some clear/amber discharge here and there. In case nobody remembers, this is my CAE-positive doe. Now, in my situation,  I don't even have a way to keep my buck separate, let alone a positive doe. It was fortunate when she kidded that it was all in one place and very easy to clean. No other goat was near her or where she kidded until several days after I cleaned up, so there was no worries there, but I was seriously hoping she'd hold off on this until she sold.

I checked everyone over very carefully for open sores, and nobody has any, and while she's not dripping (it's drying as soon as it's there, it seems-none has made it halfway down her tail), I can't control it if it does. I know water is supposed to break the blood cell, preventing spread of the virus, but it's too cold to hose her down and there's no way I can hose down the pen,either.

Now, CAE doesn't bother me, in fact, it's not something that really concerns me, except for one reason. I want to maintain a negative herd for marketing purposes. Under any other circumstances, this doe wouldn't even have been here to kid, but I was unable to even find someone interested in her until a few weeks before she kidded, and I didn't want to risk taking her to the auction not knowing when her due date was. Once she's gone, I'll retest Jenny, and hope for the best, but even if she does come up positive, she's going to stay. I'll just have to give up showing and eat extra kids....


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 6, 2011)

More mucous this morning, bigger udder, ligs still there, definitely not sunken in this morning. I'll admit, she knows how to drive me nuts.


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 6, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> More mucous this morning, bigger udder, ligs still there, definitely not sunken in this morning. I'll admit, she knows how to drive me nuts.


* DOE CODE STINKS!!*   I wouldn't think that my 7 month old Cali would have learned it yet... but apparently they know the code even at that young an age.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 6, 2011)

They learn early...

That's OK, though, Milky's buckling is taking lessons from Maverick. He was blubbering and pawing his sister, then trying to jump on her....

I'm also debating talking to the guy about keeping him a buck. I found out who she was bred to, and talk about NICE. This kid's already standing wide and straight, and looks sooo much better than his dam...but even if he does wether, he's already so heavy he'll make a great butcher kid, too.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 7, 2011)

That's it. Jenny is a yellow mucous factory. She hasn't got kids in there, she's got big loads of snot. Once again, I go out and check on her, she's got mucous out the rear (literally!), and a bunch of it is hanging about an inch or so down.

And of course, once again, ligs are still fairly hard, and no real udder....


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## rebelINny (Mar 7, 2011)

My doe Annie did that this year. It was a week later that she kidded. She was a week late too........must have been that seven was her lucky number this year


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## Livinwright Farm (Mar 7, 2011)

here's hoping for healthy babies SOON!!!


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 9, 2011)

I guess you could say I'm getting less and less excited about everything. I know she's supposed to be a great milker, but the more I look at 2nd and even FF saanens (looking to buy), I just feel worse and worse about Jenny's. Practically all the udders I saw were twice as big as hers, even a bunch of the FF does.

She's a week out, and she still looks like this. Eh, maybe I'll feel better tomorrow...


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 9, 2011)

got better angles, still don't feel any better about her development...

















And her weight? Looks worse to me...maybe I'm just seeing things, though.


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## helmstead (Mar 9, 2011)

Maybe she'll suddenly get a ton of milk on right before or after she kids...?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 9, 2011)

Yeah, I'd hold off judgement until she actually kids.  Is this her first kidding with you?  You might ask her previous owner if she waits til the last minute.  Although everyone has to build that mammary tissue in advance some does don't actually fill until it's time to rock and roll.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 9, 2011)

It's her first kidding with me, but she was also just under a yearling when she kidded, too, though I doubt if that had anything to do with it.

Her dam, however, will fill dramatically about 8 hours before she kids, though this year, she's been filled and (nearly) shiny for almost 2 weeks...


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 9, 2011)

Ariel didn't have a big udder until the morning she kidded.  I went down to feed her and noticed she had really filled up.  Had babies on the ground about 4 hours later.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 14, 2011)

No worries about the udder! It's doubled in size, and if I'm not wrong, she'll finish filling it out tonight when she kids. She could kid tomorrow, too, but ligs are gone (except for a teensy thread on the right side), and she looks so unpregnant right now it's not even funny.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 14, 2011)

Looking forward to udder pics!


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## Roll farms (Mar 14, 2011)




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## TheMixedBag (Mar 15, 2011)

I was right on the money! She kidded 6:30 on the dot. Had to pull the first kid, he was a MONSTER. Already had horns, too. Jenny tore a little bit and prolapsed, so I started her on penicillin. 
Both kids are doing fine, they're weak in the back legs, though, so I need to go wrap them (the joint will pop forward).






About 5:15 pm. At this point, she is contracting, she's just not saying anything, or doing anything but stretching and arching her back here and there. She was very talkative, but she always is when I'm around, so nothing unusual.





First kid (named Peanut). This is the little turd who caused all the problems. I had to go in and grab hold of his legs before he'd even started poking out. I had seen a speck of white, and that had been it. Once I got his front legs out, I think I pulled for 2 minutes straight (hard, too. I was pretty much bracing against the cattle panel) before he finally came all the way out.





Second kid came out with almost no pulling (named Butters).





Peanut. Told you he was big. He's standing flush up against Jenny here.










BLUE EYES! They'll fade out to yellow when they get older, but still. They're blue!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 15, 2011)

Let's see her udder!!    And congrats!


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## Roll farms (Mar 15, 2011)

Congrats!


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 15, 2011)

I need better pictures of it first! I haven't even cleaned her off...

But, I did get one photo


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 15, 2011)

It's beautiful!  Messy, of course, but we'll cut her some slack since she just gave BIRTH!    Very, very nice.


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## TheMixedBag (Mar 16, 2011)

Got better udder photos yesterday. Cleaned her up a little, but she's gonna need a full bath. The yellow is iodine I dumped on her.

She's also feeling a lot better, and while she looks SOO skinny, she feels like she's fatter, so aside from what I'm feeding, what else (cheap-like, not more than $15-20 per bag) can I feed her to help her bump her weight up? I increased feed to 2-3 scoops of alfalfa pellets and a scoop and a half of beet pulp, and she eats about half in the morning, and half later in the afternoon.

Kids got bandaged yesterday, and it's working wonders. They'll get BoSe tomorrow, and the bandages can probably come off Friday.









Sorry that one's blurry. She wouldn't stand still.




Don't like this shot at all, but then again that's with big twins nursing too, so we'll see what happens in two weeks.





Butters' leg. His only problem is that leg keeps rotating inward. Soon as I finished wrapping his leg, he started running like a madman. He's still not too sure how to handle it, every once in a while, he'll try to twist and land on his butt.




Peanut's. Both hocks kept popping forward, causing him to fall every time he got bumped, or someone blew in his general direction. They've stopped popping forward since I wrapped them, and he's doing better with them than Butters is.


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