# Questions on line breeding



## KinderKorner (Dec 21, 2010)

Alright guys. I need some help. This will be pretty long, but I need some advice. Due to the fact that kinder goats are pretty rare, and the mind set of the few breeders there is, nearly evey Kinder goat within 10 hours or more of here is related. I've tried to diversify as best as I could, but it's a challenge. At this point I'm trying to figure out the best way to breed my does to better my goats, not inbreed excessively, and still have unrelated babies to sell.

At this point I have several doelings which are undecided on who I am going to be breeding to in the next few months but I want to focus on two right now.

I have a huge, beautiful doeling Ellie that is almost 10 months old. She is the goat that after tons of kids prove that we are actually heading a step in the right direction with our breeding goals. She already out weighs and is taller than her momma, and I am sure her udder will have more capacity. 

The problem. I have FOUR current bucks. None of which are suitable to breed to her. I have a pygmy. Which I am not willing to waste a breeding on for unregisterable goats. Her half brother, her dad. Then Jasper. I could breed to him I suppose but it's not going to happen. Him and Ellie's moms were twins, who both turned out tiny in size. He is also very small, and while Ellie is big I am not risking breeding backwards. If their related parents were outstanding goats I might consider breeding, but since both of them need improvement in size I won't do it.

Another doeling Izzie, (Whom is Ellie's half sister) I am also having problems picking a buck. Her dad, her brother then Jasper. Their moms are half sisters, and I don't want to breed babies that aren't an improvement to my herd. Izzie was from my best buck, and a best doe. Jasper is a pretty little guy, but I prefer bigger.

This leaves me with 4 choices.

#1. I am keeping a buckling from a best doe for now. Sara. Meaning it would be a sibling to Izzie. So she is out. Ellie is a maybe. But again momma's are half sisters. And daddy and momma were also related. It doesn't bother me too much although, because the related goats were a couple generations back and I seen every one personally and they were nice examples of the breed. 

#2. I can hang onto one of my other bucklings for a couple months, use him to breed then sell him. Momma is lily, my other best doe. Daddy was Jasper. But the buckling so far doesn't seem any smaller than the other kids, infact lily's kids so far have been the most correct and best looking kids we have had. We kept her buck last year, and he is stunning. So I am hopefuly his buckling won't disappoint.

#3 I am breeding a new line of Kinders. So I could wait until I have a different buck. Doeling is 8 months old right now. But tiny. I was hoping to breed her at 10 months. But I'm betting it will be another 4-6 maybe more months before I'd feel good about breeding her. Meaning it would be at least a year before I'd have an unrelated buck, if she didn't have girls only. 

#4 Wait and see if I end up buying a different buck. It's possible. But I have no plans for it right now.

Izzie I'm not in a hurry. She is still small, so it will be a few months for her yet. Ellie though is big, beautiful and I am so looking forward to babies. I hate to see her just wasting. Although it wouldn't be a terrible thing to have to wait.

Advice? Should I breed Izzie to the Lily buck, and Ellie to the Sara buck? They would be related, but how much is too much? What would you do? Both bucks, and both doelings are looking really good. I have faith they would produce wonderful babies. I am jsut the type of person that doesn't like them related. But a lot of people argue that it is good to line breed. Kinder breeders do it over and over. Saying they know what they get when they stay on the same line. I'm just undecided if I like it. Some is needed I know, but jsut how many times is okay?

Izzie is a good example. Her daddy and momma each had a parent that were twins. I was leery, but momma and daddy were outstanding so I gave it a go and she is turning out really nice with no problem. 





Here is the two bucklings lines.





The two doelings.


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## KinderKorner (Dec 21, 2010)

Eek. My breeding plans even confuze me. Relations make it hard. Maybe I worry too much about it.

I'm hoping to settle down a little in the spring, cut back on the extras, add some new lines, only keeping the best.

So if anyone is seriously interested in getting some registered Kinders. Bucks, does, kids. Contact me. I will have some nice animals to go, that I just don't have room for, or that I kept kids from and they are no longer needed.

As of now I have 1 whether, 1 doe, 3 bucks, 1 unregistered doe all this years kids that need to go.

Jasper the buck. One year old. Perfect for someone wanting to breed smaller goats. Sweet guy, and really flashy colored. 

Spring time I will be rehoming one of my best bucks. He produced some great kids for me, and since I am a softie and can't turn many loose he has to go since I'm keeping two bucks, a whether, and 2 doelings from him. lol.

Debating on selling three adults does in spring. All where bottle fed, sweet animals, some of my favorite pets. But got to keep working up. 

Hopefully I will have 1 or more new 1st generation lines going in a year or so. Just waiting for them to grow up. 

My friend who has been breeding nubians for years has really fallen in love with my animals, and now thinking about switching to kinders. I'm super excited. She is a vet, and very smart, and it would be amazing to team up with her on raising and breeding kinders. Looking forward to it.


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## jodief100 (Dec 22, 2010)

I am just starting to figure out goat genetics but my experience in bipeds has been if you must inbreed it is better to jump generations.  In other words, father to daughter is better than bother to sister.  

Keep up the great work in developing the lines you want.  I know it is difficult but done properly, the results will be worth it.


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## KinderKorner (Dec 22, 2010)

Oh I would never breed that close. I just couldn't do it. But I'm wondering how much related a few generations back breeding is too much, or should I just wait until I have a different buck. 

I've been breeding for a few years, and like what I have gotten so far. But as I keep kids and expand, it's getting harder and harder to choose who to breed to who.


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## jodief100 (Dec 22, 2010)

Dog racing has scores they assign to a breeding based on the common ancestors.  If the score doesnt meet criteria, the racing association will not allow the pups to be registered.  Perhaps you could do some research based on how the scores are assigned to get some guidelines about what is too close.  

I know some people who are doing granddaughter to Grandfather and do not seem to having any ill effects.  Most of the negative effects of inbreeding only show up after a few consecutive generations.


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## Shiloh Acres (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks for asking. I have a half-brother and half-sister doeling and buck ... They share the same sire and mothers are unrelated. I don't plan to breed her this year (getting too late anyway) but I was concerned about that. I had read on various websites that it was ok and many good lines incorporate this, but I had not yet made up my mind.


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## chandasue (Dec 22, 2010)

One of my girls has the same grandfather (who was supposedly a very nice buck) on both sides. She's healthy but not as worm resistant and requires more frequent worming than the others and it was not a breeding that improved upon prior generations. Her udder is downright ugly and not much for production either. That could just be a fluke but it could be chalked up to too much of the same genes too. Who knows.


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## KinderKorner (Dec 22, 2010)

Interesting.

I know there are risks with line breeding. When putting so many genes that are alike together you can get some really strong traits. Both the good and the bad. If that line is known for short ears, your going to get short ears. If they are known for long backs, you'll get long backs. Depending and not exactly, of course.

I'm trying to make this as easy as possible. 

Below is two charts of what the pedigrees would look like if I did breed the two doelings with the two bucklings I'm considering.












Mimosa, Ziegfield, and Edie are the ones I'm worried about. It seems like nearly all my goats have them somewhere in their blood. All three were good goats, but I'm not sure which faults they had. Looking at it the names pop up a few times. But breeding Izzie to Lily's buck only adds Edie, and it is a step away from Mimosa and Ziegfield which she needs.

It doesn't seem that bad. I've owned  or dealt with many of the goats in their lines. So thinking of quailty wise those lines look lovely. Sara and Lily are my best does so getting some offspring crossed from them seems like a winner. Same with Sammie. She has a fantastic udder, it just doesn't hold much milk, and Sara holds lots of milk, but isn't as tight.


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## jodief100 (Dec 22, 2010)

Just to remind you, most of my experience is with primates.  Goats may be different.  I have yet to have to deal with inbreeding. I just switch out bucks regularly since boers are readily available.  

Looking at the potential pedigrees, from what I see they look good. Ideally you want to look at 5 generations.  Usually the problems in inbreeding are not directly due to the small number of genes.  What happens is with fewer genes there is more opportunity for bad genes to show up in the phenotype.  Simply put, there are fewer good genes available to mask the bad ones.  In theory, if you have no bad recessives then the fewer genes will not matter.  In reality, an individual with no bad recessives is a rarity if it exists at all.

Line breeding can be a valuable tool to isolate and propagate good traits, until a bad recessive rears its ugly head.  When it works, you have animals with two copies of a desirable gene, thus guaranteeing the animal will pass the gene to their offspring.  When it fails, you have two copies of an undesirable gene and the undesirable trait presents.


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## ohne (Jan 3, 2011)

Line breeding can be a powerful tool. In fact if you look at some of the top dairy goat herds they use line breeding fairly heavily. The Nubian is a prime example of line breeding while we have an extensive number of lines at this point in time, you go back far enough and all Nubians in the US are related to a select few goats. Im not advocating excessively inbreeding just saying that in the dairy world (cattle or goats) it is very common. I grew up on a cattle dairy and despite my distance from home still help with much of the show herd matings, most Jerseys in the US are related to one of 3 bulls so there is some level of inherent linebreeding happening. 

As far as the pedigrees that you posted go I would say that you are probably ok. I am very impressed that you posted those by the way, nice visual. 

Could AI be an option for you to bring new bloodlines into your herd?  

There is a joke in the dairy cattle world that I have heard quite often if it works its called linebreeding, if it doesnt then it was inbreeding. Not a great way to run a breeding program but if all else fails sometimes you just want to get an animal freshened and you dont always have to keep the offspring.


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