# Clutsy pregnant doe



## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

I have a nubian doe due anytime now to kid!!!    Her ligs are loosening and her hoohoo is slackening and today she was noticably trimmer looking.  But I also noticed that the last few days to a week she is as clutsy as I am(at least according to dh!).  She is also having a hard time standing up once she is down.  Now I know from 3x experience that happens during pregnancy, but I've never had it happen to a goat.  She'll be walking along, trip over a log then roll across the ground.  I'll run after her and help her up, but it is starting to concern me.  Any ideas goat people?  Should I be worried or not?  Also what should I start the babies on to make sure they grow to their full potential when they are born?


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

I would get some CMPK in her ASAP...

And yay for babies!  

But do get some CMPK.


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## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

What is CMPK?


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 31, 2011)

What is CMPK?  I've seen it mentioned before but I don't know what it is.  Do most feed stores carry it or should I get it ordered?  

I want to be sure I have everything on hand that I need as they get closer over the next few weeks.


edited:  ooops, sorry started my post before the previous one.


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## elevan (Jan 31, 2011)

I just googled CMPK and found this:

http://goats.wetpaint.com/page/Hypocalcemia+-+CMPK+Kitchen+Recipe


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

it's an injection or drench containing calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and potassium.


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

BTW I HIGHLY recommend you have the injectable on hand!  It's vet Rx, but works faster and is easier to administer.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 31, 2011)

Good to know!!!  Thank you!


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## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

Ohhhh....Okay. So you think maybe a deficiency is her problem?  I keep loose goat minerals out to her.


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## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

Gone to go find some cmpk.... Be back in a minute.....


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## elevan (Jan 31, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> BTW I HIGHLY recommend you have the injectable on hand!  It's vet Rx, but works faster and is easier to administer.


Where do you get the injectable?  I just checked jeffers and hoeggers and they don't have it...


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

Minerals won't do a thing for late gestational hypocalcaemic issues...has to do with feed intake and the demands of the fetuses as they pack it on right before birth.


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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## elevan (Jan 31, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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Well...    back at ya!


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

I understand, it's late!


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## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

Okay now...Time for 50 questions. Number 1- What is hypocalcemia and what causes it?


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## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

I am assuming from the name that it is a calcium def. but what else?


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/milkfever.htm


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## helmstead (Jan 31, 2011)

The fact that she's weak really worries me.  I've had does go hypo before, and maybe go a little off grain (which prompted me to give CMPK) but never had one get wobbly or have trouble getting up/falling down.


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## rebecca100 (Jan 31, 2011)

I had just found that site also.  She's not off grain at all.  I thought perhaps it was just arthritis, and heavy pregnancy, but today she literally tripped over something and rolled across the ground.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/milkfever/hypocalcemia.shtml


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## Ariel301 (Feb 1, 2011)

That doesn't sound normal at all.

Do you have a small, safe pen you can keep her in so she isn't in as much danger of hurting herself or her babies until this gets worked out? A fall like that could injure her or the kids.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 1, 2011)

I'll second Kate's advice, keeping CMPK on hand is a MUST.

What do you mean arthritis rebecca?  Is she very old?


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## rebecca100 (Feb 1, 2011)

She is around five years old from what I was told. I was also told she had a registration which I am still trying to get.  I really don't know very much about her.  She still has good teeth so I know she is not ancient.  The person I got her from I now know was a "goat trader".  I DID NOT know that then.  But I do not believe that she is diseased.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 1, 2011)

I would have her tested for CAE. Really even at 5 she shouldn't be arthritic. I have a 6.5 year old that shows no signs of arthritis. This is a Nigerian Dwarf but I would still think that 5 really isn't that old.


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## helmstead (Feb 1, 2011)

My eldest does are 8 years old - a Nubian and a Nigerian - and neither show any signs of arthritis.  I do have a 7 year old buck who's a wee stiff in the rear legs, but not arthritic.

There is something amiss, I hope you're able to get some CMPK in her before she kids and maintain good levels, or you could loose her.


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## phoenixmama (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm glad I checked this thread...I'll be adding the injectable CMPK to my list.  I'm so happy to have a Walco 10 minutes away.  It makes things so much easier...

I hope things turn out okay for your doe.


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 1, 2011)

When I call my vet, is that how we ask for it?  CMPK?  Just in case I have to elaborate - I'm kown to cause confusion with my vet and I've only been seeing him for a week!  (Doesn't take me long to cause confusion at all )


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## rebecca100 (Feb 1, 2011)

Soon as this bad weather clears I will take her to the vet.  I gave her some homemade CMPK.  She is not off feed though.  Just the opposite.  She tried to take dd down yesterday over a french fry.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 1, 2011)

7- just ask them to order you some CMPK.  I don't think there's really any room for error.  It's an abbreviation for Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous, Potassium, but it actually says CMPK on the bottle.

CMPK is injectable.  I keep an oral CMPK gel on hand for non-emergencies, but in an emergency you want the injectable.  It's less than $4 for a 500mL bottle.

I also have an 8 year old doe who shows no sign of joint problems or stiffness.


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## rebelINny (Feb 1, 2011)

I wonder if that isn't what I lost a four year old doe from recently. She was three weeks from kidding and just crashed. Vet said I should put her down. I wish I hadn't listened and knew about CMPK and tried that first. I don't think the vet was really wanting to help as it was a small animal vet.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 1, 2011)

rebelINny said:
			
		

> I wonder if that isn't what I lost a four year old doe from recently. She was three weeks from kidding and just crashed. Vet said I should put her down. I wish I hadn't listened and knew about CMPK and tried that first. I don't think the vet was really wanting to help as it was a small animal vet.


It is quite possible. That or toxemia can take a doe down fast. We have the same problem, even the livestock vet in town won't see goats, just doesn't think they are worth the time, since the average cost of a goat here is $25 and the cost of a vet bill is $$$...when I took in an absolutely wonderful doe that was badly bloated, the vet sent her home to die, told me she didn't know what to do about it and it would realistically probably be cheaper to buy a bullet and a new goat. I was told the same by several vets when our favorite doeling got tetanus a few months ago, that they wouldn't advise wasting the money to try treatment  So I keep a well-stocked medicine cabinet now.

I agree that at 5 she should not be arthritic unless she suffered a bad injury in the past (causing the injured joint to be stiff) or she's CAE positive. I'd definitely think about getting a CAE test, especially if you're planning on letting her nurse her own kids, as she can pass it on to them.


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## Horsefly (Feb 1, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> 7- just ask them to order you some CMPK.  I don't think there's really any room for error.  It's an abbreviation for Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorous, Potassium, but it actually says CMPK on the bottle


Okay please excuse my ignorance but where does the "K" come from?


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## jason_mazzy (Feb 1, 2011)

Potassium ( /pɵˈtsiəm/ po-TAS-ee-əm) is the chemical element with the symbol *K* (Neo-Latin kalium), atomic number 19, and atomic mass 39.0983. Elemental potassium is a soft silvery-white metallic alkali metal that oxidizes rapidly in air and is very reactive with water, generating sufficient heat to ignite the hydrogen emitted in the reaction.


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## rebecca100 (Feb 1, 2011)

During the middle of the storm today she went into labor.  She had triplets.  The second was positioned wrong. When I realized that something was wrong, it was too late.  the second baby had it's head back and couldn't be born.  I got on the phone with the vet and she talked me through pushing it back, finding it's head which was difficult, and repositioning it.  Actually it was my 10 yr old son who was on the phone with the vet telling me what to do or holding it to my ear so I could hear what she had to say myself. The doe was already weak and had quit pushing.  We eventually got it positioned and the third came out soon after the second.  Both were born dead.  The mother is extremely weak.  She had 2 girls and 1 boy.  The two that died were beautiful black and sliver spotted with frosted ears and noses.  I have finally kinda quit crying, almost.  I wish I had realized something was amiss sooner.  The first little girl is in the house doing okay.  I got some colostrum in her and she is alert and happy.


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## themrslove (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss.  It is never easy to lose kids.  
But so happy that there is a precious bouncing little girl to ease the pain!  Congrats on one healthy baby!


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm so very sorry.  I am glad the little doeling is doing well.  How is mama doing?  Is she regaining any strength?  I'm sure others will have advice on how to best treat her - she's likely need some follow up care.  As are you, so here's me offering my hug -->   Very traumatic, I'm sure, for both you and your son.  

Hoping all remains well with your two does.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 2, 2011)

I am so sorry!   We all understand how you feel.

Kate knows more about this that I do, but hypocalcemia can cause uterine inertia/weak contractions.  If mama's weak I would still very much advise getting some injectable CMPK in her- the sudden, extra demands made by milk production are just as likely to cause/contribute to hypocalcemia post-kidding.  ESPECIALLY if her appetite is off.  I'd also offer plenty of alfalfa if she's eating.

I hope she recovers quickly for you and I'm glad to hear her kid is doing well!


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## rebelINny (Feb 2, 2011)

Sorry for your losses but sooooooo glad you were able to have one kid alive and well. I know its hard losing kids though  Hope mom is doing good despite the problems.


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## elevan (Feb 2, 2011)




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## rebecca100 (Feb 2, 2011)

Momma died within 2 hours of delivering the last one.    She was in hard labor for WAY too long.  She never went off feed.  She even nibbled on hay between contractions with the first kid.  They were stong contractions, but to start out 2 were trying to come out at once I think.  There was what looked like 2 bags coming out.  The second one was mispositioned.  His head and one leg were back. As soon as the first came out on it's own part of the second's leg came out behind it.  I wondered if everything was okay when she quit making progress, but I was hesitating to get involved and possibly hurt her unnecessarily.  She pushed hard several times over I don't know how long a period and finally gave up.  I realized with panic then that something was seriously wrong.  DS who is 10 was with me and we called the vet who guided me through pushing it back, repositioning it and helping  to deliver it.  While I was in there I found the 3rd baby.  The last two were of course dead by now, but they were quite literally the most beautiful spotted babies I had ever seen.  They would have been show stoppers if they had lived.  I guess between whatever was already wrong and the long labor and stress it was too much for her.  I guess if I EVER decide to do this ever again, then I have learned a hard lesson, but gained some knowledge like when NOT to wait.  The whole thing seemed to only have lasted a short time, but when I finally got back inside with the new doeling, I had been out with her for nearly 7 1/2 hours.     The new doeling however is doing great, but she just can't decide which of us is her momma.  She is in the living room sound asleep right now.


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## jason_mazzy (Feb 2, 2011)

Wow. I am so sorry!


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## PattySh (Feb 2, 2011)

Very sorry to read about your losses. I bet you will treasure that little doeling! Glad she is doing ok.


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## mossyStone (Feb 3, 2011)

I am so very Sorry....


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## Roll farms (Feb 3, 2011)

I'm terribly sorry...


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## helmstead (Feb 3, 2011)

Sorry for your loss.

Please do some reading on pregnancy toxemia, hypocalcaemia and ketosis.  I doubt it was the long labor, so much as the need for CMPK, that caused your doe to pass.  

Good luck with your new bottle baby.


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## rebecca100 (Feb 3, 2011)

I had read about toxemia, and was prepared for that.  I thought I had all the nutritional bases covered with a goat protein/mineral tub from TSC which also contains calcium and loose minerals out all the time.  The thing is she never quit being alert until she died and she never quit eating. I gave her a treat after the last one was delivered.  The vet and I both thought that she was going to be fine when I hung up with her.


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## Livinwright Farm (Feb 3, 2011)

I am SO sorry to read about your losses, but am glad that the doeling is doing well. In this day and age, one can never be too prepared or overstocked with emergency supplies.


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