# CL & Raw Milk?



## Ann114 (Jan 19, 2013)

My best milking doe has CL. I know it is CL because another doe has it. Her abscess ruptured before I expected it to, and although I cleaned and wrapped it afterwards, I'm sure some pus found its way to the ground.

My question is, since CL usually only pops up at lymph nodes and mostly around the head and neck, how common is it for one to actually be inside the udder? I see all this stuff online saying never to drink the raw milk because "what if" she has an udder abscess and "what if" it bursts, etc. It seems as if it's one of those "well it COULD technically happen, so just don't do it!" 

I'm pretty confident that I'd be able to see an abscess on the skin of her udder, and feel one growing once I milk her out. I'd hate to abandon raw milk drinking because of some crazy "what if" scenario.

If anyone knows of any *documented* cases of CL zoonoses from raw milk consumption, please post them. I want to make an educated and informed decision based on facts rather than hype. 

Thanks!


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 19, 2013)

From Washington State University
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/FAQ/cl.aspx
Though much less common than visible subcutaneous abscesses, abscesses may also form in the lungs and abdominal organs as a result of spread of the organism within the animal via blood or lymph. When abscesses are present in the lungs, the organism may be transmitted through respiratory secretions (nasal discharge or coughing). In rare cases, C. pseudotuberculosis may be present in the milk. Although CL is not sexually transmitted, it is recommended to avoid natural breeding of animals with abscesses.

From UC Davis
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/inf-go_careprax2000.pdf
The majority of diseases that affect goats, do not affect humans. However, proper sanitation and hand washing should always be practiced whenever treating or handling goats. There are a few diseases,  however, that can also affect humans. These zoonotic diseases include: Q-fever, Vibriosis, Toxoplasmosis, Chlamydiosis, Ringworm, Soremouth, and Caseous Lymphadenitis. Pregnant women are more susceptible to a number of these and as a
routine precaution should not assist with delivery of kids or handle aborting does.

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/
More  info on CL.

Can you get CL from a goat?  Yes.  Is it likely?  No.  Are the documented cases of it?  Probably but it is not a reportable disease so you might not find much in the way of "documented cases".  But should you drink milk raw from a goat with CL?  Bottom line is it doesn't matter what other people's concerns and decisions are about drinking raw milk----their decision is the RIGHT decision and yours will be too.  I pasteurize mine and for me and my family that is the right choice, even though we have disease free animals and are very clean in our milking procedure. But for those that don't, it doesn't make their choice any more right or wrong than ours.  We have all read the same documents and have made educated decisions.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 19, 2013)

In case you want to read through this study of some people who contracted CL from sheep.  Some of them did drink raw cow and goat milk regularly.  Kind of a dense read. 
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/185.full.pdf


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## Ann114 (Jan 19, 2013)

I did read that study prior to posting. I didn't find that it was much help because it was only one suspected case and there is no direct link between milk consumption and the disease. 

I do know that it is most easily, though still rarely, contracted through direct contact when draining an abscess. That does not worry me at all. I know that I can easily protect myself from that.

I suppose that drinking raw milk from CL+ goats is more common than one would think. Lots of "goat people" don't even know what CL is, and yet they still drink the milk raw. I can say that in my area, asking for CL/CAE/Johne's testing is like asking if you see the alien spaceship above your head. People look at you like you're strange.

So are we still back to essentially 0 confirmed human cases of CL through only the consumption of raw milk?


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 19, 2013)

You could always check with the CDC I suppose but I don't know why it would matter really.  It is known that you can get CL and they say it is not _likely _ but you should be cautious.  What you do with that info is a personal choice.


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## mjgh06 (Jan 19, 2013)

Personally  because CL can have internal abscesses that cannot be seen, I would never drink raw milk from a known CL infected goat.  I think Pierce Pastures gave you some very good links to review.  I have never had a case of CL within my herd, but if I ever did it would be culled.  That's just my opinion on it.  I am not willing to risk my goat's health or my family's.  Here are two good links for treating CL if you are not wanting to cull - http://www.clgoatcare.org/#5.0 http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/formalin06.html


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 19, 2013)

If a goat gets Internal CL then it MUST be culled, however, Internal CL in goats in not very common and you can tell when they have it. They will be sickly, cough alot, hang back from the herd, etc etc. 

External CL (a lump on the goat) is nto a big deal and is fine. You'll be fine. Many people have CL and don't even know it. You could cull if you want but that's up to you. I myself would not cull just for a CL lump. Now if I had a goat that had Internal CL, more than one lump at a time, or had two lumps within a 18 month period then it goes. That shows that it has or will become chronic and that goat must go.


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## Ann114 (Jan 20, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> If a goat gets Internal CL then it MUST be culled, however, Internal CL in goats in not very common and you can tell when they have it. They will be sickly, cough alot, hang back from the herd, etc etc.
> 
> External CL (a lump on the goat) is nto a big deal and is fine. You'll be fine. Many people have CL and don't even know it. You could cull if you want but that's up to you. I myself would not cull just for a CL lump. Now if I had a goat that had Internal CL, more than one lump at a time, or had two lumps within a 18 month period then it goes. That shows that it has or will become chronic and that goat must go.


That is my position on it, too. If they are suffering or sickly in any way, they go. 

My purpose for the goats was to have access to the milk. If that is now a complete no-no because of this, I will consider my options. But if it's just a "well, yeah, it's possible, but a 1 in 1,000,000 chance..." then I'm willing to gamble.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 20, 2013)

I would too. There are MANY people that have CL in even their dairy herds and don't know it and some even do. I'm not a believer that CL will hurt humans and I know ALOT about CL (I have done many, many hours of research about it and know more than most people) and I myself do not feel that CL is bad. It really does nothing to the goat except a lump every now and than. Does cause pain or issue bla bla bla. But if it were to go Internal or the goat had more than one at a time or they were often then I would strongly suggest to get rid of the goat in the form of culling. But till then, I say keep on keeping on.


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## Ann114 (Jan 20, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I would too. There are MANY people that have CL in even their dairy herds and don't know it and some even do. I'm not a believer that CL will hurt humans and I know ALOT about CL (I have done many, many hours of research about it and know more than most people) and I myself do not feel that CL is bad. It really does nothing to the goat except a lump every now and than. Does cause pain or issue bla bla bla. But if it were to go Internal or the goat had more than one at a time or they were often then I would strongly suggest to get rid of the goat in the form of culling. But till then, I say keep on keeping on.


I feel that a lot of people unknowingly lump it into the same category as CAE. Now that is something I am serious about. If I had a goat with it, and it was one I absolutely had to keep for attachment reasons, she would simply not be bred. If it was a buck, sorry, you've got to go.

That is why I wanted some serious proof about milk transmission. It's easy for anyone to say "can". I want someone (preferably a vet, researcher, PhD, etc) to say "Yes, it has in these cases."

Plus, I'm sure if we saw some of the animals' lumps and bumps that end up in our food chain, we'd think CL was pretty minor.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 20, 2013)

Ann114 said:
			
		

> Straw Hat Kikos said:
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Yes! I say the same all the time. People do NOT know what they are talking about and think they are both bad and as you said lump (no pun intended) them together. CAE is bad! I would never keep a CAE+ goat. I would not. CL+? Sure, not a big deal.

bte CEA is transmitter thru ALL, or has the potential to, be transmitted thru all body fluids, not just milk like most believe.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 20, 2013)

You probably won't have an issue with CL milk transmission which is what vets and researchers alike say.  But it is not silly or foolish that people don't want to drink milk from a CL+ animal or pasteurize their milk (and I just plain don't want to deal with CL in my herd).


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 20, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> You probably won't have an issue with CL milk transmission which is what vets and researchers alike say.  But it is not silly or foolish that people don't want to drink milk from a CL+ animal or pasteurize their milk (and I just plain don't want to deal with CL in my herd).


I'm not saying it silly or foolish, just that I myself don't think it's a big deal and that I wouldn't fret over it.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 20, 2013)

Oh, no I totally agree about not fretting over it and I didn't think you all were saying it was silly.  Just don't want it to be a criticism thing when people, like me, decide we would rather not drink it raw or at all or keep a CL+ animals.  It is just one of those things where what is right for one is not right for another and both choices are just as educated and sensible.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 20, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> Oh, no I totally agree about not fretting over it and I didn't think you all were saying it was silly.  Just don't want it to be a criticism thing when people, like me, decide we would rather not drink it raw or at all or keep a CL+ animals.  It is just one of those things where what is right for one is not right for another and both choices are just as educated and sensible.


 Absolutely


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## Ann114 (Jan 20, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> Pearce Pastures said:
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Same reason why I don't have cats. I don't trust the buggers no matter what people say. I'm on to them and they know it.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 21, 2013)




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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 21, 2013)

Me too!!


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## mjgh06 (Jan 30, 2013)

Ann114 said:
			
		

> Plus, I'm sure if we saw some of the animals' lumps and bumps that end up in our food chain, we'd think CL was pretty minor.


As I grew up on a ranch with dairy and slaughter animals-cows and goats- I know all slaughter animals and dairy farms are inspected/tested prior to slaughter or use.  For goats, the inspection process includes current testing for CAE and CL.  CAE goats can be used for slaughter because it is not transferable to humans through meat consumption, however CL goats will not be used in most cases because all infection of CL must be removed from the body and discarded due to the possibility of transmission to humans.

 As for on the farm living and life for a goat infected - Both CAE and CL can been effectively monitored and treated to allow the goat to live a semi-normal life without worry of contamination to other animals.  Most goats with CAE never develop symptoms outside of the arthritic form.  Owners of CL goats can develop an autogenous vaccine to allow continuous treatment of the herd with limited or no further abscess outbreaks.  But treatment for both disorders are time consuming and costly.  Because with CAE there is no concern of transmission to humans, I would rather have a goat with CAE than CL.


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## babsbag (Jan 30, 2013)

mjgh06 said:
			
		

> Ann114 said:
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Maybe on your farm they were / are tested but that is simply not the case elsewhere. CL animals are put into the food chain all the time: some are condemned if they have abcesses but there are many many that go into the food chain CL+.  Many of the boer goat breeders that I know don't even test for CL and they do have it in their herd. 

As far as dairy stock being tested, I don't believe that it is a required test. I would like to know you sources for that information, other than your experience.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 30, 2013)

Even a goat with CL that has abscesses it can still be eaten. People do it all the time and slaughter houses do take them. They just cut any abscesses out and the goat is still good. 

And it is not required for dairies to test. Many, many dairies have CAE in their herd. 

I think that if one really does their research and knows the diseases well, anyone would rather have a CL+ goat than CAE+. Do the research. CL is not a big deal; CAE is.


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## Roll farms (Jan 30, 2013)

CL abscesses are cut around and out, and the animals are still slaughtered.  I've seen it on goat butchering videos and read many anecdotal articles in various meat goat magazines.  
CL is 'walled off' bacteria, as long as the trimmer cuts around it, no 'ick' can get into the meat.  And, if properly cooked through, it'd be killed anyway.

I have drank milk from CL positive animals, and even (unwittlingly) CAE positive animals (and yes, we pasteurize).

Now, we never popped an abscess and then milked that doe right then and there....Nor did we ever have one w/ an udder abscess in the milking string.  I made a point to lance any abscesses well before kidding.  Healthy, happy CL+ does rarely get lumps.  Stressed out animals and those in poor health tend to get them more often.

I did have a doe once get an abscess on her udder.  We elected to put her down b/c of her age, CAE status, and the fact that she was a milk animal....if I couldn't milk her anymore, it made sense to put her down.  RIP, Princess Doodle.  You are STILL missed.

We've been CL free for 2 yrs ( the original, older CL+ does died off and the new stock was vaccinated) and currently have 2 CAE+ animals left (bought from "CAE-" herd, ha ha, good thing I tested them) who will leave (already have a pet home lined up) once I get kids I can raise CAE prevention.  One doe has no CAE symptoms at all, the other freshened w/ a hard udder but is otherwise fine.

When I first discovered we had CL+ does 10 yrs ago or more, I was told I HAD to kill them, wait, and start over.  They were my 1st goats, my babies, so I said, "NO."
We made the sentimental (vs. practical) decision to deal w/ it, and through good sanitation, isolation, and vaccination....and 8 yrs...we finally got it whipped.

I've sold 350 or so kids in that time, ALL caught at birth and CAE / CL prevention raised, and not ONE has come back CAE or CL positive to my knowledge.

If I get another CL+ doe, though...she'll be culled, I'm just not messing with it anymore...and I've had enough time being a 'real' farmer now to realize that being practical is usually smarter and more cost effective than being sentimental.

Being CAE free is a goal we thought we'd achieved.... but a dishonest seller ruined that, temporarily.  I cannot afford to NOT get good kids out of these does, so I will keep them until I can get clean kids.  

Frankly, after dealing w/ both conditions over time...while I WISH I didn't have to, neither one freaks me out. 

(I did see one CAE+ doe w/ horrible arthritis once, she needed put down ASAP, and it was sad.  We've never had anything more obvious than a hard FF udder in ours).

Again, we pasteurize.  We keep anything isolated that is contagious.  We're honest w/ buyers and responsible / compassionate w/ the animals.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 30, 2013)




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## mjgh06 (Jan 30, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> CL animals are put into the food chain all the time: some are condemned if they have abcesses but there are many many that go into the food chain CL+.  Many of the boer goat breeders that I know don't even test for CL and they do have it in their herd.  As far as dairy stock being tested, I don't believe that it is a required test. I would like to know you sources for that information, other than your experience.


My discussion on the inspection was related to slaughter.  There are strict regulations that must be followed by the USDA under the Federal Meat Inspection ACT which is what I and other commercial slaughter goat owners follow.  To avoid delays in the inspection process we bring in current test results verifying negative or positive results of the slaughter animals for the pre-inspection requirement before Grade.  That way we can go on to the carcass examination which is done on all animals for slaughter with the exception of your own household(there are other state and city and local laws regarding home slaughter or slaughter for home use).  The ACT is very lengthy but if you slaughter animals for commercial sale I am sure you are familiar with it and I am sure it can be looked up online, or you can contact your local Agriculture Specialist in the Commercial Slaughter division for more information.  Anyone who knowingly sales/slaughters an animal with CL without notification to the inspector is liable for misrepresentation under the ACT.  The ACT also has provisions for adulterated meat which is why there are withholding times for slaughter and milk when selling commercially. There are also recordkeeping requirements for all persons selling commercially which include records of disease, disabled, and death of animals and onsite inspections of those records must be allowed.  There are also strict state requirements that must be maintained.  These can be looked up through your state's agriculture department or by contacting them.  Anyone not following the law is violating the law and anyone that knows of someone knowingly selling an infected or adulterated animal for slaughter without proper notification should be reported.  That is why we do have problems in the commercial realm because too many people try to go around the law and do not follow the guidelines set.  We always go above and beyond the requirements to ensure the meat labeled from our farm is excellent quality and at the highest grade.

I haven't done dairy commercial sales in awhile, but here are the USDA regulations for dairy inspection and grading - http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5069773  and the FDA Pasteurized Milk Ordinance http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/F...ilkShipmentsNCIMSModelDocuments/UCM209789.pdf  I do know there are states that do allow commercial sale of goat milk without the FDA requirement.  But the state I live in is not one of them.  In all states if you are licensed to sell commercial milk and milk products you are required to follow the USDA regulation for inspection and grading.  Most people try to go around the law when it comes to goats.


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## mjgh06 (Jan 31, 2013)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> CL abscesses are cut around and out, and the animals are still slaughtered.  I've seen it on goat butchering videos and read many anecdotal articles in various meat goat magazines.  CL is 'walled off' bacteria, as long as the trimmer cuts around it, no 'ick' can get into the meat.


This is the reason most meat goat producers do not want a CL goat in their herd.  We lose alot of money when we are paid by the pound of an animal and all that weight is wasted.



> I have drank milk from CL positive animals, and even (unwittlingly) CAE positive animals (and yes, we pasteurize).


CAE is NOT transmittable to humans whereas CL is which again is why we do not want CL in a herd.  There is a legal liability here.



> We've been CL free for 2 yrs ( the original, older CL+ does died off and the new stock was vaccinated) and currently have 2 CAE+ animals left (bought from "CAE-" herd, ha ha, good thing I tested them) who will leave (already have a pet home lined up) once I get kids I can raise CAE prevention.  One doe has no CAE symptoms at all, the other freshened w/ a hard udder but is otherwise fine.


Any goat that has been CL vaccinated is considered adulterated meat and is NOT allowed to be sold for slaughter.  Another reason not to have CL in your herd if you doing this to make money.



> I've sold 350 or so kids in that time, ALL caught at birth and CAE / CL prevention raised, and not ONE has come back CAE or CL positive to my knowledge. ... We're honest w/ buyers and responsible / compassionate w/ the animals.


I am glad you are honest with informing buyers of CL in your herd.  I would suggest that you also have them sign a Notice of Disclosure for your own protection.  Every seller is legally liable for what they sale especially when it comes to food.  As an example, let's say you sell a goat to someone who intends to eat that animal (you don't know that is the intention).  That goat has a zoonotic disease (transferable to humans).  Two people in his home become sick, or just say he becomes sick.  They determine through his doctors that he contracted a zoonotic disease which by process of elimination came back to that goat he purchased from you.  You are legally liable for the damage done for selling him an infected goat and all his medical bills and treatment and probably P&S.  You can say all you want well I told him we had ____in our herd, or I didn't know he was going to eat it or drink it's milk.  You are still legally liable - where's the proof that he was notified or knew about it?  Statute of limitation on this is 2 years unless god forbid he dies - then legally you could be not only sued but prosecuted.  

I am not trying to scare anyone here about selling their animals or dairy does, but reality is what it is, and we as a goat population have to become more aware of the legalities of what we are doing and be more cautious about how we sell. With commercial production there is less liability because it's on a large scale and because there are regulations that are followed to protect them.  But with small round about sales which most goat owners do, there's a lot more liability because you are not following any set standard or regulation.  You are in a loop hole.  A simple Notice of Disclosure will eliminate most of the concern though.  You have a written document that tells the purchaser what has been found on you land and in your goats, what has been tested for, what vaccination and testing procedures you follow.  They no longer can come back to you and say I was unaware of the risks.

You also mentioned you unknowingly purchased a goat who was infected.  That person is legal liable for reimbursement to you for that goat, and for any consequences related to it without a disclosure.  I fortunately have never had that happen, but then I am now a closed herd.  But if it did happen, I would have immediately taken the goat back to the owner and requested a refund or inform them I was planning on taking legal action.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 31, 2013)

> This is the reason most meat goat producers do not want a CL goat in their herd.  We lose alot of money when we are paid by the pound of an animal and all that weight is wasted.


Just a question. Are you  a meat goat producer? Because I think that statement is false. Sure most, if not all, of us would rather have a clean flock in that nobody has any disease but as far as meat goat producers; they for the most part don't care. I am in the meat goat business and I know alot of meat goat people. Trust me, not alot care at all. Meat goats are terminal animals and most meat goats will be slaughtered and eaten. You can eat CL+ goats and it is done all the time.



> CAE is NOT transmittable to humans whereas CL is which again is why we do not want CL in a herd.  There is a legal liability here.


Yes CL _can_ be transmitted to humans but it really does nothing to you. _Maybe_ it gives you a rash of some sorts and that's only if it enters your body. Many, many people have CL+ animals and it is not a big deal. It really doesn't cause the goat any issues other than an occasional lump. If it goes chronic then they should slaughter the goat because that can be bad for the goat and cause you issues throughout the herd. But for the most part CL is NOT a big issue and sure while people can get it it's pretty rare and all it is is a little rash. Not a big deal. CAE though, that's a big deal imo. Nope people can't get it but it does the goat harm and it is easily transmitted from goat to goat making it hard to control alot of times. CAE does do goats harm and that's why I don't like it. imo CL is not an issue at all. CAE is an issue and I think alot of people would agree to that.



> Any goat that has been CL vaccinated is considered adulterated meat and is NOT allowed to be sold for slaughter.  Another reason not to have CL in your herd if you doing this to make money.


Never heard that but I'll take your word. Good thing I don't do CL vaccines, eh? I think CL vaccines are a dumb idea.

I think the rest of your comments are a little strange. These are goats we are talking about. A goat that has some minor disease that is not a big deal in 99% of peoples eyes and while I'm sure 100% of us in an ideal world would rather do without, it's not a big deal. 

Have you ever heard of someone getting sick from a goat that had CL? I have not. Ever. If I have never head of someone getting sick and there are many, many people with CL+ goats then I think that this issue of us getting sick from them is way overblown. If you have heard of someone getting sick from goat's CL please let us know. And not speculation but proof that the goat gave it to someone.


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## babsbag (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't sell my goats commercially for meat or sell thier milk. 

It is my undersatnding that these are regulations that have to be followed by the slaughterhouses AFTER carcasses come in.  So do you honestly think the goats sent to auctions have been pre-screened? Around here they certainly aren't. At the auction they are purchased by buyers who ship them immediately to the slaughter facitilities. 



			
				mjgh06 said:
			
		

> Any goat that has been CL vaccinated is considered adulterated meat and is NOT allowed to be sold for slaughter.  Another reason not to have CL in your herd if you doing this to make money.


Many boer goat breeders vaccinate thier herd against CL and they ARE being sold for slaughter, no one is even asking that question. What would be the difference between a vaccine for CL and the CDT vaccine, or any other vaccine. Again, no one is asking that question of the sellers.



			
				mjgh06 said:
			
		

> I am not trying to scare anyone here about selling their animals or dairy does, but reality is what it is, and we as a goat population have to become more aware of the legalities of what we are doing and be more cautious about how we sell. With commercial production there is less liability because it's on a large scale and because there are regulations that are followed to protect them.  But with small round about sales which most goat owners do, there's a lot more liability because you are not following any set standard or regulation.  You are in a loop hole.  A simple Notice of Disclosure will eliminate most of the concern though.  You have a written document that tells the purchaser what has been found on you land and in your goats, what has been tested for, what vaccination and testing procedures you follow.  They no longer can come back to you and say I was unaware of the risks.
> 
> You also mentioned you unknowingly purchased a goat who was infected.  That person is legal liable for reimbursement to you for that goat, and for any consequences related to it without a disclosure.  I fortunately have never had that happen, but then I am now a closed herd.  But if it did happen, I would have immediately taken the goat back to the owner and requested a refund or inform them I was planning on taking legal action.


I can agree about taking it back and asking for a refund, but a lawsuit, seriously?  I suppose if you spent a lot of money on the animal and you had to destroy it you could take them to small claims court and get a judgement that way, but that is about all you are going to get. As a buyer it is up to me to retest the animal if I don't trust the seller and QUARANTINE. If down the road the negative CAE goat converts to + CAE (and it does happen), am I still going to go back and sue the previous owner? When does their responsibility end?

As far as them getting a disease from a goat I sold them, again, it is up to them to test and to decide if they need to pastuerize the milk, it is not my job as a seller to police their practices with THEIR animal. I believe in being honest when selling any thing, but while I am a resonsilbe seller, a buyer needs to be aware and responsible as well.  No one should have to tell an adult that a plastic bag is not a toy for a child, and that a lawnmower blade is sharp and can cut off your hand. People in USA have forgotten how to use common sense.

While the disclosure form would take care of that, it might also scare off a lot of new goat owners. It is not something I am going to add to my practices. I would rather educate my buyers in a friendly, no so scarey, manner. 

JMO


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 31, 2013)

> I can agree about taking it back and asking for a refund, but a lawsuit, seriously?  I suppose if you spent a lot of money on the animal and you had to destroy it you could take them to small claims court and get a judgement that way, but that is about all you are going to get. As a buyer it is up to me to retest the animal if I don't trust the seller and QUARANTINE. If down the road the negative CAE goat converts to + CAE (and it does happen), am I still going to go back and sue the previous owner? When does their responsibility end?
> 
> As far as them getting a disease from a goat I sold them, again, it is up to them to test and to decide if they need to pastuerize the milk, it is not my job as a seller to police their practices with THEIR animal. I believe in being honest when selling any thing, but while I am a resonsilbe seller, a buyer needs to be aware and responsible as well.  No one should have to tell an adult that a plastic bag is not a toy for a child, and that a lawnmower blade is sharp and can cut off your hand. People in USA have forgotten how to use common sense.
> 
> While the disclosure form would take care of that, it might also scare off a lot of new goat owners. It is not something I am going to add to my practices. I would rather educate my buyers in a friendly, no so scarey, manner.


I can not even begin to tell you how much I agree with you. 10000000000000000000%!!!!!!!!!! You said it perfectly. There is nothing I disagree with and agree with it all. I didn't really want to get into all that but I had to back you up. Had to.


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## mjgh06 (Jan 31, 2013)

Straw - we are way off topic here and probably should have started a different thread for this - but I think the problem here is that we are talking two different subjects - those who raise "meat goats" to sell the animal; and those who are commercial "goat meat" sellers.  I sell show, pet, dairy and meat goats as goats, but I am also a commercial "goat meat" seller registered with the USDA.   I used to also sell commercial dairy products also registered with the USDA.  But my standards for my operation are the same regardless of how I am selling.   

From your statements I am guessing you sell the goat not the meat.  I have been a producer for over 20 years and am very familiar with the laws and regulations.  My father was a Texas rancher who was a commercial producer of cattle and goats for over 50 years.  There are not many registered commercial goat producers that legally sell meat(search the internet, you won't find many).  When you as a "meat goat" seller sale your goat to a slaughter house they then become the liable party and must follow the USDA laws.  However, you can still be liable if you knowingly sale a goat to a slaughterhouse with a zoonotic disease and do not inform them, as you can if you sale to an individual.  Have there been cases of litigation on this? - not really but that still does not release you from the liability.    



> I think the rest of your comments are a little strange. These are goats we are talking about. A goat that has some minor disease that is not a big deal in 99% of peoples eyes and while I'm sure 100% of us in an ideal world would rather do without, it's not a big deal.


Most of us forget that goats are legally Livestock and the laws that regulate livestock fall on us as well even if we choose not to go by them. The problem is that because there are so many non-licensed owners selling unregulated, adulterated meat and dairy, the USDA is attempting to make stricter regulations on all livestock owners.  Believe me, I keep up to date on all this as it can effect my production.  I actually have an attorney I have discussed this with in great depth.  To me it is just irresponsible and dangerous to sell any animal that could possible be used as a food product that has a zoonotic disease without informing the buyer.  Those who are knowingly doing this are just creating more fire for legislation to become involved in the operation of the small goat farm.  I don't think if you asked the mass population if they cared if a disease in a goat that was transmittable to them was used for their meat that they would eat, I just don't believe 99% of them would not care.  I think the majority of people if told they were going to eat meat that came from an infected animal would throw it out with the trash.  Why do you think ground beef production sales went down when there was a MAD COW scare.  People do care and they want healthy animals for healthy meat.

Cases of CL in people - the reason there aren't many reports of it in humans is not because they haven't contracted it but rather because they haven't reported it.  Symptoms of infection show up months to a year after initial contagion.  SO when you become lethargic or develop a rash today, you're not thinking about what you did months ago to get it, so you don't bring it up to your doctor.  With that said I did a quick search and came up with 24 cases of reported CL contagion - most in Australia.


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## mjgh06 (Jan 31, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> I can agree about taking it back and asking for a refund, but a lawsuit, seriously?  I suppose if you spent a lot of money on the animal and you had to destroy it you could take them to small claims court and get a judgement that way, but that is about all you are going to get. As a buyer it is up to me to retest the animal if I don't trust the seller and QUARANTINE. If down the road the negative CAE goat converts to + CAE (and it does happen), am I still going to go back and sue the previous owner? When does their responsibility end?
> 
> As far as them getting a disease from a goat I sold them, again, it is up to them to test and to decide if they need to pastuerize the milk, it is not my job as a seller to police their practices with THEIR animal. I believe in being honest when selling any thing, but while I am a resonsilbe seller, a buyer needs to be aware and responsible as well.  No one should have to tell an adult that a plastic bag is not a toy for a child, and that a lawnmower blade is sharp and can cut off your hand. People in USA have forgotten how to use common sense.
> 
> While the disclosure form would take care of that, it might also scare off a lot of new goat owners. It is not something I am going to add to my practices. I would rather educate my buyers in a friendly, no so scarey, manner. JMO


I think we will all have to agree to disagree on this one.  But I would like to point out that there are warnings even on Mcdonalds toys about choking hazards(even on the plastic bags), and yes someone did sue them for that hot cup of coffee - and won.  That's also why there are now warnings about peanuts - someone was allergic, didn't know it and bam lawsuit.  That is the reality of the legal system.  You are liable without disclosure and it is the seller's responsibility to inform the buyer.  Just for anyone that wants to see it, here's the draft version of my Notice (an attorney helped me with it) - It's really simple, and straightforward and I've never had anyone complain about signing it.  I also include a list of meds/pesticides I have used from here (I circle the ones used)- https://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/goats/presentations/A5 Goatmeds[1].pdf

NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE
Insert Farm Name  strives to produce healthy, disease-free animals.  We practice active control measures to include sanitation practices, inspections and quarantine programs within our herd(s), and make every effort to deliver these animals to buyers in a state of good health.  This Notice of Disclosure provides you, the buyer, with information about zoonotic disease, food-borne illness, and medicine/chemical use.

Zoonotic diseases are infectious disease/illness that can be transmitted from an animal to a human.  There are many different zoonotic disease contaminants and just as many ways of transmission.  Infectious agents of zoonoses are parasites, bacteria, fungi, viruses, and pria.  There are also intermediate carriers which transmit zoonotic diseases to humans.  Some common forms of transmission include bodily fluids, eating infected meat or dairy products, and exudates from abscesses or lesions. 

Food-borne illness with regard to animals is similar to zoonotic disease but its transmission is from consuming contaminated food.  Food-borne illness contaminants usually arise from improper handling, preparation or food storage.  It may also be cause by ingestion of chemicals, medicines or pesticides used on an animal before slaughter.   

Medicines used to treat various disease/illness within an animal can cause reactions in a human.  There are numerous chemical contaminants that can be used each having their own withholding time for milk and/or meat consumption.  Chemical contamination is often unaffected by thermal processing.  Veterinary drugs and pesticides are both considered a chemical contaminant. 

Insert Farm Name makes every effort to inform you, the buyer, of any known disease/illness the animal(s) has and our use/schedule of veterinary drugs/pesticides, however, we do not guarantee the animal to be disease/illness free due to the numerous agents of infection.  We do not test for all possible contaminants and we have no control over the buyers use of the animal(s) after purchase.


I, the buyer, have read the above Notice of Disclosure and state that I have been fully informed of any known disease/illness of the animal(s) being purchased and the use of veterinary drugs/pesticides.   I release Insert Farm Name from liability upon purchase of the animal(s).



X___________________________________________		______________________________
BUYER SIGNATURE							                               BUYER DATE


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## Roll farms (Feb 1, 2013)

*I truly, truly don't want to argue these points.  My post wasn't in regards to anyone who's selling / dealing with commercial / USDA situations, it was toward the original topic and giving a 1st person view of having dealt with CL and CAE.  You are very knowledgeable and I applaud your commitment to your convictions and opinions.  

However, humans rarely do what they are supposed to.  

Most people who end up w/ CL animals either hide it and lie (if the animals are valuable - which helps spread the disease), or haul them to the local auction.  A vast amount of those animals end up at a terminal sale.  At least here in IN.  And they get loaded on the slaughter truck headed to Chicago.  *



			
				mjgh06 said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*I called her.  Long story short, she said, "Tough luck."  I coulda sued her, I suppose butttt... I'm more of the "If she can live with it, I can live without her." mindset.  Getting all worked up and in debt over a jerk isn't in my nature (anymore).  I've mellowed w/ age, I guess.*

*I agree we live in a litigious world....but I could also be sued over my LGD's barking too much, someone tripping over a rock in my driveway, someone buying a baby chick that dies on Easter, etc.  And if someone did sue me, well....they're not gettin' much anyway.   

The point is, the OP has now seen the homestead and commercial side of the argument, and this thing has probably run it's course.... *


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 1, 2013)

I agree Rolls. I'm done here.


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## babsbag (Feb 1, 2013)

Ditto


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## Valley Ranch (Feb 2, 2013)

we had a doe we immunized for cl with the cl goat vaccine. of course she then tested positive for cl. We then became concerned about drinking the  milk so we took a sample and had it tested. Cost an aweful lot of money but the test proved to us that cl does not transmit through milk.
Now that doesn't address the issue of if an animal has an active infection with a abcess in the udder.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 2, 2013)

And that should be correct. What CL is, is bacteria in the lymph system and after a while, and it depends on the goat, the bacteria builds up at the site of a lymph node and after some time the body must expel that bacteria and it does that in the form of and abscess which will naturally, as all abscesses do, will open up. Caseous Lymphadenitis basically means "cheesy lymph nodes". That's what it means. All CL is is some bacteria that is in the lymph system that on day may or may not build up to a high enough amount that an abscess will appear. It's nothing more than that. It is not transmitted in any way other than direct contact with the puss and it must enter the body of another goat for that goat to be infected. Same for humans, must enter the body. I for one do not take a whole lot of stock in the fact that it can or does hurt us as it's been around forever, it's still around and people are still around it! If it were a big issue we would know more about it. CL is not a big deal. It does not do real harm the goat, it's easily maintained and managed, in most cases, and I honestly don't think it's an issue to humans at all. People eat goat that has or had CL all the time and they are not having issues from it as far as I can tell. I have yet to see any hard proof that shows me CL in goats is doing or can do real harm to us. And I think we all know it really doesn't do much to the goat other than having to lance it and clean it. Sure there are chronic cases of it but there are for anything and if it is bad then of course the goat needs to go. But if it's not effecting us or the goats in a big or even a medium way, why get worked up over it? I don't get it. 

Also, it should not mess with the milk in anyway unless the CL puss is entering the milk because that's the ONLY way it is transmitted! Neither you nor goats can get it when there is no lump or abscess thus no puss. Many goats get just one abscess and their done. Why get rid a perfectly good goat for such a small issue that is so easily cared for and such a small issue?

Thank you for listening ladies and gentlemen, I am now done for tonight.


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