# elderly goat-problems



## smoky73 (Aug 1, 2011)

I do not have a MAJOR problem, but I do have a 9 year old doe that is a pet. She is a Toggenburg, and just the last month or so, has very thinning hair on her back hips and neck. The neck I suspect is from rubbing on the feeder, but wonder if this could be from just plain old old age? She is exhibiting no other issues, eats fine,  acts fine, normal weight that I can tell. she is just balding, no real bald patches, just over all, on her back, and where I mentioned. My goats have never had lice or mites, but the flies have been bad and they hate to be sprayed for bugs. I managed to get some spray on her today, but I can worm her if that might help with any parasites (lice or so) that she MIGHT have that I cannot see. What I own for wormers, Valbazen, Ivomec (injectable) and Ivomec Eprinex Pour-on.
I have searched in vain for anything about typical signs of old age in goats that they might exhibit and found nothing. I know the life span in books say 10-12 years normally.


----------



## ksalvagno (Aug 1, 2011)

Bugs are bad this year and I wouldn't be surprised if she has lice or mites. The Ivomec should work for you.


----------



## Goatmasta (Aug 1, 2011)

I would bet anything she has mites.  Ivermec pour on dosed @ 1cc/22lbs (orally) 3 treatments given 10 days apart will do the trick.  Cylence will help with flies and lice..  Dosages are on my blog under "meds list".


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 2, 2011)

you wouldn't just "pour on" the pour on? Why, if thats the way its supposed to ge administered?:/


----------



## Terry (Aug 2, 2011)

smoky73 said:
			
		

> you wouldn't just "pour on" the pour on? Why, if thats the way its supposed to ge administered?:/


I wondered that too. I wouldn't give it orally. I tried it years ago for my pygmy goats, and it irratated them. It made the hair falls out where I put it. The lady I used to get my breeders from was almost a vet tech. She raised some top of the line goats. She said anyting you can used on dogs can be used on goats. I have some horse spray {FlyX} that is labeled for horse & dogs. I spray my goats and have no problems, and no bugs on them. The one goat is quite old.


----------



## elevan (Aug 2, 2011)

Terry said:
			
		

> smoky73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When "pouring" something onto a goats skin they can get a "burn".

I did some research on giving pour ons orally...and it turns out that almost all of them were originally tested orally and then as a pour on.  In cattle it was found to be more effective when poured on.  Personally I've decided to give the Ivomec brand pour ons a try orally in my goats.  You should do your own research when making this decision as not every pour on is created equal...some have ingredients that I wouldn't want my goats ingesting....but as I said I've researched the Ivomec brand thoroughly.  It was originally tested orally in rats, dogs and cattle and found to be the most effective externally in cattle and not really effective for dogs...they tested safety margins in rats when given orally and found them to be moderately high.


----------



## Terry (Aug 2, 2011)

As I posted in a couple of threads, I don't raise anything anymore. I figure there's already enough things being made/born in the world.

But for bugs I just use FlysX horse spray. I can use it on horses, goats, and dogs. So it's a money saver and works well. It's a wonderful premise spray. On the dogs and cats I do have flea drops though. Advantage II is working well this year. I appreciate all the information and help here.

Thanks.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 2, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I did some research on giving pour ons orally...and it turns out that almost all of them were originally tested orally and then as a pour on.  In cattle it was found to be more effective when poured on.


Im gonna need to see some references on this, please.  You're making it sound as if these meds could have gone either way -- either pour-on, or oral -- but simply tested to be more effective as pour-ons, and so they became pour-ons..  Sorry, but I'm having a *really* hard time swallowing the notion that any med formulated with 'Aromatic 100' or any other volatile hydrocarbon was *ever* intended for oral use.  

Links, please.

Oh, and btw...I found an MSDS on Eprinex on Merial's australian website (pdf).  I'll grant you that an MSDS is about risk to humans, but nonetheless, here's what it says about ingestion:

"INGESTION: If swallowed urgent hospital treatment is likely to be needed. Follow instruction of Poisons Information Centre.  Medical observation for delayed symptoms needs to be carried out for up to 48 hours."


----------



## Terry (Aug 2, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. I wouldn't ever use this orally. But to each their own!


----------



## Goatmasta (Aug 2, 2011)

I have used ivermec pour on orally for many years with great success.  I have seen absolutely no ill results from it.   I can give you many reasons why you shouldn't use it as a pour on, and many reasons why you should never inject the injectable ivermec.  

  The hair loss could also be from a Zinc or selenium deficiency.  How about we keep the thread on track.


----------



## elevan (Aug 2, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll see if I can't find the time to find the websites again...and I'll post the clinic trials notes for you...or just PM them to you as I agree that we really should keep the topic to what the OP asked.


----------



## kstaven (Aug 3, 2011)

First off, the I'm right and you're wrong violates the forum rules. Secondly all anyone here can do is offer suggestions based on their experience and leave it for the OP to decide from there.  If anyone wants to go beyond that I suggest they contact the OP personally, sign a contract for services rendered and accept liability for those actions. 

Everyone here has the right to offer suggestions while being civil and courteous. Going beyond that and calling people out for their suggestions violates forum rules. 

Like it or not people will offer suggestions based on their experiences that are counter to what some believe. That is the way of the world and this forum. This forum is not about defending ones way but about sharing their experiences. 

I do hope all those out there understand this warning.

Kurtis
Moderator


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 3, 2011)

Edited for Rule violations.


----------



## Ariel301 (Aug 3, 2011)

I've got a 10 year old LaMancha doe with similar symptoms. When I got her three years ago, her hair was thin all over and really flaky skin. Since getting her on good feed and minerals, it mostly cleared up, but she still has thin hair over her topline and in the winter time, the hair on the front of her face thins too. She doesn't have lice or mites (I even treated for them just to be sure, even though I did not see any). She gets free choice alfalfa hay and Purina Goat Mineral, and is given grain while she milks. She's otherwise healthy except for missing a few teeth, but that doesn't slow her down much at all. Could it just be an old age thing? My doe had a pretty hard life before I got her.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 3, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> but as I said I've researched the Ivomec brand thoroughly.  It was originally tested orally in rats, dogs and cattle and found to be the most effective externally in cattle and not really effective for dogs...they tested safety margins in rats when given orally and found them to be moderately high.


Just to clarify, are you saying Ivomec pour-on is ineffective when given to dogs?  Ivermectin is the drug used in heartworm preventatives and is highly effective.  We use Ivomec injectable given orally as heartworm preventative.  I wouldn't use pour-on for my dogs obviously, but just wanted to clarify that ivermectin is the standard heartworm preventative.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 3, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We had a chow mix when I was a kid...ok, well, he wasn't technically ours but he basically decided to live at our house and his "owners" didn't seem to care one way or the other...and he ended up with the dreaded sarcoptic mange..  After several topical treatments (shampoos, ointments, etc) failed, he got several rounds of injectable ivermectin for cattle...at the vet!

Took several rounds and a lot of time to heal and grow his fur back out, but it worked like a champ.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Aug 3, 2011)

Warning: to anyone reading this, you can not give Collies or Collie mixes ivermectin. Not all heartworm medicine brands contain ivermectin.


----------



## redtailgal (Aug 3, 2011)

x


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 3, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Warning: to anyone reading this, you can not give Collies or Collie mixes ivermectin. Not all heartworm medicine brands contain ivermectin.


x2.  

And that includes Border Collies, Australian shepherds, Shelties, etc. as well...  An old adage vets use is "White feet, don't treat."  Of course, ivermectin sensitivity doesn't _actually_ have anything to do with an individual dog's particular foot color...  It's more of a 'breed-standard warning', for lack of a better phrase..  In other words, if a given breed of dog _typically_ has white feet, it's unwise to use ivermectin on it.


----------



## elevan (Aug 3, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


According to the study I read...for the purposes it was being considered for in the study (which was not heartworm).

I DO understand that ivermectin is the standard for heartworm prevention BUT that was not what was being studied in the clinical trial.


----------



## Blue Dog Farms (Aug 3, 2011)

We have Aussies and have used Ivermectin for years with them. My sister actually had one test positive for h/w when he was maybe a couple years old and started treating him with ivermectin monthly, the dog lived to be 12 and actually tested negative for heart worms in later testing.


----------



## elevan (Aug 3, 2011)

G&H Farms said:
			
		

> We have Aussies and have used Ivermectin for years with them. My sister actually had one test positive for h/w when he was maybe a couple years old and started treating him with ivermectin monthly, the dog lived to be 12 and actually tested negative for heart worms in later testing.


This has gotten WAY off the topic.  There is not a dispute that ivermectin is used for heartworms - that is not what I said.


----------



## Blue Dog Farms (Aug 3, 2011)

No I know, I just have never heard that it wasnt good for Aussies, just commenting that we have used it. I wouldnt suggest anyone else use it if you have heard that it could be bad for the breed, but thank you for the info I will look it up.  Back to topic, I did notice a little bug on one of my does today and was a little grossed out, thinking lice. Will herbal wormers do anything?? Im thinking no, so maybe a spray along with the herbal? How would a closed herd get lice?


----------



## elevan (Aug 3, 2011)

G&H Farms said:
			
		

> Back to topic, I did notice a little bug on one of my does today and was a little grossed out, thinking lice. Will herbal wormers do anything?? Im thinking no, so maybe a spray along with the herbal? How would a closed herd get lice?


Some people claim that DE will work


----------



## redtailgal (Aug 3, 2011)

x


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 4, 2011)

Well, I was just asking as to why you would use a medicine labeled as a pour on as an oral med. Does not make sense to use as it was not intended on the packaging.
I still believe that its a old age thing, I do not really feel its a bug problem as there has NEVER been one here in my goats, and no one else has any signs. If anything, I will admit maybe it could be nutritional, although she does get good grass/alfalfa hay, sweet feed and loose minerals. However, I did just purchase some vit E & selenium top dress to feed them. I do not like paste, its too hard to get them to eat it, and I have at least 1 aggressive biter. So I opted for some I can add to some sweet feed and dose each individually.

Edited to say that I do own some DE, and hubby usually puts it in their water as it keeps the algae down in the tank. So I can go out and Dust them with it too. I also got her the other day with a fly spray, I think it was called Tri-tech, it was in a grey bbottle and for horses.


----------



## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

smoky73 said:
			
		

> Well, I was just asking as to why you would use a medicine labeled as a pour on as an oral med. Does not make sense to use as it was not intended on the packaging.
> I still believe that its a old age thing, I do not really feel its a bug problem as there has NEVER been one here in my goats, and no one else has any signs. If anything, I will admit maybe it could be nutritional, although she does get good grass/alfalfa hay, sweet feed and loose minerals. However, I did just purchase some vit E & selenium top dress to feed them. I do not like paste, its too hard to get them to eat it, and I have at least 1 aggressive biter. So I opted for some I can add to some sweet feed and dose each individually.
> 
> Edited to say that I do own some DE, and hubby usually puts it in their water as it keeps the algae down in the tank. So I can go out and Dust them with it too. I also got her the other day with a fly spray, I think it was called Tri-tech, it was in a grey bbottle and for horses.


If you have external bugs, you'll be able to see them (lice or mites)....if you don't then you probably don't have them.

I use DE as a lice preventative for my chickens.  For me dusting down the goats is a PITA, so I choose not to use DE (or any dust) ON the goats...their housing is a different story.

There are several posts on here about goats with nutritional problems and what has been done or tried to fix them.  Do a search and read up...maybe you'll get some ideas.  I've not had to deal with anything other than copper deficiency yet and hope to keep it that way.

_The reason that Merial chose to label the pour on as a pour on according to the study I read is because it is NASTY tasting (unpalatable they said) and the animals won't take it orally readily...and it was found to be effective in CATTLE as a pour on.  I found the clinical studies...others can too...2 weeks of research for my own satisfaction that I am NOT going to do again to satisfy others who want to beat me over the head for my decision.  I never said that anyone had to use it orally I just said what I found and why I made the decision to give it a try.  And each person on this forum needs to do their own research and make the decision to do what they feel is best for THEIR OWN farm...as stated before this forum is for sharing ideas._


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 4, 2011)

Yep, some collies are ivermectin sensitive and need an alternative (which there are available.)  But by and large MOST of the heartworm preventative we sell at the practice I work for is Ivermectin based.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 4, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> ...I found the clinical studies...others can too...2 weeks of research for my own satisfaction that I am NOT going to do again to satisfy others who want to beat me over the head for my decision.  ... each person on this forum needs to do their own research and make the decision to do what they feel is best for THEIR OWN farm...as stated before this forum is for sharing ideas.


In my experience, it's pretty widely recognized that if you state something as *fact* on a forum like this -- especially in regard to a particularly controversial subject -- people will ask to see some type of reference material.  I'm only saying this now because it seems as if my having requested some material to back up your claims was taken personally -- but it wasn't meant to be personal.  

I just wanted links.


----------



## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I stated what I found and what I decided to do on my farm.  I am NOT telling others that is what they should do without first doing their own research.  If I come across the links again, I'll post them.

I too was skeptical about using a pour on orally originally.  I've changed my mind after doing my own research.  If we all used ONLY things labeled specifically for goats or only as "prescribed" then we wouldn't have any options as goat herders, now would we??  ALMOST EVERYTHING goat is controversial because we are using so many things OFF LABEL.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Aug 4, 2011)

Smokey:  You could also try adding some corn oil to her feed daily. Maybe a little more fat in her diet will help her.  Black OIl Sunflower Seeds(BOss) is also a good way to add fat and healthy vitamins and minerals, but it has really gone up on price.


----------



## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Smokey:  You could also try adding some corn oil to her feed daily. Maybe a little more fat in her diet will help her.  Black OIl Sunflower Seeds(BOss) is also a good way to add fat and healthy vitamins and minerals, but it has really gone up on price.


Or Flax Seed is a great source of Omega 3 which is great for coat / hair health.


----------



## redtailgal (Aug 4, 2011)

x


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Aug 4, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Good idea 20kids.
> 
> I started giving my two boys a handful of BOSS in their feed.  It really made thier coats look nice, and it did it quickly too.  Their hooves seem nicer too, but that may be my imagination.
> 
> I get a 50lb sack of BOSS (13$) to feed my songbirds and just feed goats out of that.  I do grow my own sunflowers and dry the head to keep cost down.


the last BOSS I purchased this summer was $17 for a 25lb bag. I would be jumping up and down if I found it for $13 for a 50lb bag.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 4, 2011)

Edited for Rule violations


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Aug 4, 2011)

My friend had to put down her Aussie after he licked up ivermectin that was dribbled out of a horse's mouth.


----------



## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

smoky73 said:
			
		

> I do not have a MAJOR problem, but I do have a 9 year old doe that is a pet. She is a Toggenburg, and just the last month or so, has very thinning hair on her back hips and neck. The neck I suspect is from rubbing on the feeder, but wonder if this could be from just plain old old age? She is exhibiting no other issues, eats fine,  acts fine, normal weight that I can tell. she is just balding, no real bald patches, just over all, on her back, and where I mentioned. My goats have never had lice or mites, but the flies have been bad and they hate to be sprayed for bugs. I managed to get some spray on her today, but I can worm her if that might help with any parasites (lice or so) that she MIGHT have that I cannot see. What I own for wormers, Valbazen, Ivomec (injectable) and Ivomec Eprinex Pour-on.
> I have searched in vain for anything about typical signs of old age in goats that they might exhibit and found nothing. I know the life span in books say 10-12 years normally.


In case we've forgotten...this was the original post.  I decided to go back to the original post and see if I could be more helpful since the thread accidentally took a wrong turn.

Smoky73: Goats don't just go bald without reason...not like humans (although even when humans do there is reason if you care to investigate).

If you used the Pour on as a pour on then that could be the problem right there.

Rubbing on the fence and the feeders _COULD_ be the problem.  I have a goat who has a bare spot on her head from rubbing...top of her head (nowhere else).

Flies have indeed been very bad this year.  All bugs, really, due to the exceptionally wet spring in most areas. (I know some of you are in a drought).  They make a variety of sprays (both chemical and natural) and even have fly collars and ear tags available.

If it's lice, you'd find the bugs when checking.  Mites can be a little harder but if you know the signs you can find them too.

Vitamin / Mineral deficiencies can cause hair loss.

Bacterial and yeast / fungal skin infections could be the culprit too.

Can you take a skin scraping to the vet?  That could tell you mites or skin infection if that's the problem.  Or a blood sample?  That would help you identify a vitamin / mineral deficiency.

Personally I wouldn't attribute it to aging...especially because a 9 year old goat isn't considered old in my book.

eta: Can you post a picture of your goat?  That could help us all see how bad the problem in your goat is.


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 4, 2011)

No I have not used anything on the goats at all so it is not from anything I have added.

The goats do have minerals, but when it rains, rarely, it gets wet so I washed out the containers for new tomorrow. We get very little rain usually, our climate humidity here in Northeastern Colorado is usually around 30-40%. So no damp bedding or anything. But you know the flies are bad no matter and the mosquitoes can be a pain as well.

I raise exhibition poultry so I know what lice look like and I can honestly say I have not seen anything like that out here on any of my birds or goats. Chickens get mites occasionally but they are WELL away from the goats.

I know about skin scrapings and that is something I cannot do. If it comes down (needs to get worse than this) to that I will have to call a vet out to do it. We had our dog skin scraped a while back and that is lengthy and painful as you have to get down to the raw flesh and make it bleed. It took a half a thing of dog biscuits to get the dog through the process. 

I still think its an age thing or due to rubbing. And she is around 9-10 so according to the books, thats kind of elderly. She is a happy goat otherwise, eats good, no other health issues I could even comment on. As you will see, she is not completely balding, thinning in patches is more a correct statement.

Here are pics of my goats, 3 of which should be having babies this month. The one in question is the black one and before anyone comments that we can see her white skin through the black hair, its not, thats DE. I dusted her when I got home from work and did not read this till after the fact LOL. So sorry she looks a bit white. I tried to get a closer pic of her too though. The other goats are for comparison.

oh yeah, and edited to say that she is a toggenburg, big girl, around 150lb, as is the last white one.


----------



## redtailgal (Aug 4, 2011)

z


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 4, 2011)

LOL, the thing in the background is the goat stantion? (SP?) (people use them for milking too)that my husband built so that we can trim hooves off the ground. Its too hard for us to wrestly the goat (me over the goat straddling) and him on the ground trying to trim a fiesty boer.  They love to sit up on it during the day but its hell to pay if we NEED them up there haha.
That black headed one is pure muscle (probably about 175lb) and even my husband cannot wrestle her to the ground if she is after me with the feed bucket.(happened once) As you can see, they are all horned and the black headed one is the spot ones mother so she is very protective.


----------



## redtailgal (Aug 4, 2011)

x


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 4, 2011)

oh and I buy flax seed by the 50lb bag for the chickens so I always have plenty of that. I gave her a few good handfuls tonight. she loved it.


----------



## elevan (Aug 4, 2011)

She really doesn't look that bad to me.

I'd probably just try the flax seeds for a few weeks and see if there's an improvement personally.


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 4, 2011)

well, I am relieved that others do not think she looks too bad. I was actually appalled by her appearance, but, maybe I am overly picky. Anyway I did dust her and bought more fly spray for the goats. I will keep giving her flax every day to see what happens and with fresh minerals tomorrow, that might help.


----------



## redtailgal (Aug 4, 2011)

x


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 5, 2011)

FWIW a skin scraping should not be that bad, though if I'd skip it anyway and just treat it if we had a skin issue.  I'd be most suspicious of a nutritional deficiency (maybe zinc?).


----------



## smoky73 (Aug 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> FWIW a skin scraping should not be that bad, though if I'd skip it anyway and just treat it if we had a skin issue.  I'd be most suspicious of a nutritional deficiency (maybe zinc?).


Could I give her Zinc pills for people? I have some, would assume the same amount as a person seeing she is about the same size as an adult person? I also ordered the Copper Bolus things. We will see how that works out. I never heard about that till just the last few days. I am sure they have never had extra copper.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Aug 7, 2011)

Love the beard too!! Very cute goaties!! 

Lice are not usually a problem in the summer months.  They dont really surrive hot temps. I always found for me, it was a winter issue.  But I have found a few patches of hair losening and missing hair on one of my goats from fly bites cuz she rubbed, chewed, scratched and itched it off.  I freaked when I saw it, my first thought "NOOOO RINGWORM" UGGGHHH, but after investigating it..that was not the cause...thank God.   

Personally, I get a skin scrapings done if I have no idea of cause.  If you cannot, I would clean and debris any scally area's with iodine or betadine..whatever you have. Blue kote the area to keep clean.   Once you clean and debris you can see whats going on.  I would add some Boss to her diet as well. I have put some vegtable oil right on the dry spots at times to help soften the area...but flies are bad this time of year so I probally wouldnt do that in fly season...that may draw them in more.

It could be a mineral deficency for sure.  I would add some pelleted goat balancer to her feed and get a good loose mineral for them.  Before you give supplimental minerals to your goats I would check their feed and minerals for contents and see whats lacking in your soils for the area you live in and go from there.  Sometimes we can oversuppliment and too much of one mineral can cause a bigger problems for you to fiqure out.  IMO.   Dont take this wrong..Im not saying copper bolus or adding zinc is a bad thing AT ALL.  Im just saying read more about minerals and the parts per million needed for goats before giving them too much.  

Good luck...I hope you fiqure it out soon!!


----------



## Roll farms (Aug 7, 2011)

Yes, you can use human zinc pills.  I've been dissolving them in water and giving Penny (my doe who went bald) a couple every week for about 2 mos.  Her coat looks much better - she looks fine, actually,  but I can't blame the zinc alone (for sure) b/c I also tried 453,492 other things at the same time....one of them worked.


----------



## kstaven (Aug 8, 2011)

Copper and Selenium would be my first guess.

When using Zinc you don't want to overdose it because it uses the same absorption pathway as Iron. Thus you end up with an Iron deficient goat.


----------

