# Starting from scratch with goats



## Onyx (Mar 11, 2015)

In the next couple of months I'll be moving cross-country to my new one acre plot of land.  Very excited.

I plan to keep just a few dwarf dairy goats (Nigerians and maybe a Nubian or two), chickens and rabbit (as well as a pony or two...paddocks for which will take at least half my acre).  Have plenty of experience with rabbits but will be new to chickens and goats.

I have been reading everything I can get my hands on but would love some advice from those with experience.

I don't have a lot of land (more later, hopefully), so I know I'll have to purchase lots of extra feed to supplement what I grow for the animals.  I'm totally fine with that as this is more of a "want to have good healthy food to eat and drink" than a money making or money saving venture.

My question is regarding goat fencing.  I'd be interested to hear what people think is a good amount of land to fence off for say, 6 dwarf goats.  By which I mean, not so much for grazing/foraging, but for room to move around, play and exercise to be happy and healthy.  Secondly, what kind of fence is the best to prevent escape?  Considering it's a relatively small area, I should have the funds to be able to fence it well with whatever is the best method.  I tend to like pre-made panels rather than strung wire, don't ask me why, but I am prepared to be flexible if strung wire is better for some reason.  Also, gates... is there some type that is better?

Thanks for your time


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## babsbag (Mar 11, 2015)

The problem with the pre-made panels is that many of them have holes that are too big so the goats can get through them. You can get some with 4x4 or 2x4 squares but they are $$. The 2x4 4' no climb is really good for goats. No heads will be getting stuck. I run a hot wire on mine too just to keep them from scratching on the fence, keeps the fence nicer. As far as gates, whatever works. I use the pipe gates but it doesn't matter. Ease of use and a good latch is the determining factor for me.

As far as size of the field. I have 2 standard sized bucks in a field that is about 50x75 and they are more than fine. They don't really exercise or play like dogs, they lay down and chew their cud a lot.  I also have 13 kids and 6 does in a MUCH smaller area and they are ok too. They will be moving out as soon as the kids are weaned. They don't take as much space as you think.

Goats are addicting. Be careful.


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## Onyx (Mar 11, 2015)

@babsbag That is why I asked about room for 6 goats.   I don't plan to start with 6 but I know how I am, ha ha.  I am sure my two or three starters will multiply >_>

I have heard a lot of people saying that their goats can clear a 4 foot fence from a standstill, though.  What is the structural difference between "no climb" wire and... er... "climb" wire?


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## babsbag (Mar 11, 2015)

They call it no climb as the 2x4 squares are just too small for a horse to get their foot through it.  I am sure dogs could, and goats too. The one row of good hot wire at knee height keeps the goats and dogs off of the fence. I have had goats, big goats, for 7 years and have never had one go over a 4' fence.  Not saying they can't...just saying they don't. I know a lot of goat owners and 4' is pretty much the standard. Fencing that they can't get their head through, and that the babies can't get through, is important. Especially if the goats have horns.


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## Fullhousefarm (Mar 11, 2015)

We have one of those jumping goats, but she's calmed down now that she's older. I recommend 4' fence, but have posts that extend 8-12" above the fence. Then you can add wire or hot wire if you have a jumping problem. We used hot wire for a few weeks and it hasn't been on in almost 2 years. Just the wire is enough. None of our other goats have jumped the 4' in the rest of the pasture. Just the one.


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## Baymule (Mar 12, 2015)

Absolutely use the 2"x4" horse wire. Just bought 8 acres and we are fencing a section at a time. Well worth the money to do it right the first time.  Also using 7'  T-post for 2 strands of wire at top.


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## greybeard (Mar 13, 2015)

2 worries with fencing. 
Keeping stock in.
Keeping predators out. 
4' tall might keep a goat in but won't keep a coyote or cat out. I have a mongrel mix breed dog that can clear 4' like a deer.
Fence accordingly.


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## Onyx (Mar 13, 2015)

Thanks for the advice everyone!  I have pretty much decided I'll be going with at least a 6' fence for just the reason greybeard brought up ^^.


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## Fullhousefarm (Mar 13, 2015)

Yes, that makes sense. We don't have large predators here really. Too surrounded by agriculture rather than forest/woods. We also don't have goats against frontage where dogs can roam.


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## Onyx (Mar 13, 2015)

Would this fence do the trick?  I don't know what kind of options I'll have for actual livestock fence where I'm moving to in rural NB, Canada, but I know they have a Home Hardware store nearby.

http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/i...-Wire-Fence/_/N-ntjm7/No-192/R-I5243382?Num=0


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## babsbag (Mar 13, 2015)

The welded wire fencing is not what you want, it breaks easily and is not easy to stretch without breaking. You want this kind. It is NOT cheap.
http://www.redbrand.com/Products/HorseFence/Non-Climb.aspx

 And to be honest I don't think a 6' is going to keep predators out any more than a 4', except maybe deer. Coyote and cat will go over either. The hot wire will help but even that is not great. If predators are an issue...aren't they always, you might consider a Livestock guardian dog. IMO no farm with goats or sheep should be without one.


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## Onyx (Mar 13, 2015)

I actually found another roll of wire, that is the non-climb horse wire, it's $250 for 100 feet.  From the same supplier.  It is only 5 feet tall, that's as tall as they seem to make it, though.

I could put some hot wire higher up to make a taller fence.

Regarding LGD, I thought at first that I would be for sure getting one.  Then, after doing some more reading, I'm pretty sure that my place is too small for a true LGD.  However, I do plan to have Newfoundlanders.  Newfies are pretty laid back, but their size alone would probably be some kind of visual deterrent, and I just need the dog to let me know if something is going on so I can come out and deal with it.  Heck, my Frenchton is very guardy with anything she considers "hers" and would certianly let me know if anything was threatening my livestock.

I don't know how much of a problem predators are where I live.  But since my property is backed up against miles and miles of untouched forest (as untouched as anything is these days) I'm assuming it is likely to be an issue.

What about chain link dog runs?  You can get those 8 feet high and they are very sturdy.


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## babsbag (Mar 13, 2015)

The dog runs would probably be ok; I use those panels for everything, but the goats do rub on them and they get kind of saggy at times. I really like the no climb.

As far as the dog, I have 2 in a pasture that is less than an acre and they are fine. Sometimes, like maybe every few weeks, they get another 2 acres to run on, but they go all winter with the small field and never has access to the additional land at night.

One thing about a true LGD breed...they will sleep in the day and be awake all night and they will stay right in the field with the goats. Your Newfoundland probably won't do either of those. If you have that much undeveloped land around you I wouldn't write off the dog so quickly. They are invaluable.


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## Onyx (Mar 14, 2015)

@babsbag My main concern is being able to provide what a LGD needs.  The property is 1 acre in total, but right now, the way I'm planning things is that there will be 1/4 acre of home and garden, and the other 3/4 acres will be divided into paddocks - probably one permanent paddock for goats and the rest divided into rotating paddocks for a couple of ponies and whatever other livestock - still pondering what I have room for in practical terms.  

From what I understand most true LGDs need a lot more room than that to be happy - the size of the paddocks will only be 1/8 of an acre or so.

What about a miniature donkey?  I've read that donkeys make good guardians.


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## alsea1 (Mar 14, 2015)

Go with a really strong elec. fence. That keeps critters in and critters out.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 14, 2015)

Your Frenchton will get eaten by a coyote faster than you can get to the door. @babsbag  is right. Your Newfie, which I love BTW, is not a LGD breed. LGD breeds are different, they are nocturnal, instinct to be with livestock, guard and protect at all cost. They are wired differently. All LGD's are working dogs but not all working dogs are LGD's.

I agree that if assessed properly the right LGD can go on small land but I would not put a LGD full time in 1/8 acre. 2x4 No climb is pricey but is the best fence available.
Not sure how a miniature donkey would do as a Livestock Guardian.


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## Onyx (Mar 14, 2015)

@Southern by choice I would not let my Frenchton out at night precisely because I do not want her to be eaten by a coyote!  But I expect she would still alert me from inside the house if there was anything outside, assuming it was close enough to the house for her to hear.

And yes this is my exact dilemma, I don't really have enough land to be suitable for a true LGD so my plan was to rely on "alert" dogs and do the responding myself, but try to have good enough fences to keep predators out as much as possible.  I doubt a mini donkey would be able to stand up to a medium or large sized predator but hopefully would alert me in time to get out there and put the run on any varmints.

I plan to have a Norwegian fjord horse as soon as I am prepared... I know they also make excellent guardians, but they are expensive so not sure how fast that will happen.

I am hoping to be able to buy at least another adjoining acre or two at some point, and of course then I'll have more options.


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## Bossroo (Mar 14, 2015)

The Neufie or Frenchton would have next to  "0%" chance to stand up to coyotes ...  my accross the street neighbor had a Rottwailer guard dog to guard a herd of 30 sheep on a half acre  night pen less than 50 feet from his house.  One night without hearing a  sound even from their lab / ? mutt in the house ,  all  they found was this dog's head and hide after the coyotes did their dasterdly deed.    As for mini donkey as a guard animal... DREAM ON !!! They too are prey animals after all.      A neighbor just 3 miles from our ranch in Cal. breeds  5 mini jennies with their 1 jack  in a 5 acre field .  Well one morning they found one jenny killed by coyote and partially eaten with the rest of the minies mingling nervously next to the fence nearest their house. Owners never heard a sound.   I doubt that the Fjord horse would be much of a deterent ... On a QH ranch a few miles from mine a cougar killed a 3 day old foal  with 9 mares and their foals in the pasture and took it up an old oak tree and partially ate it there. Also,  7 years ago ,  a cougar killed one of my yearling fillies  in my front 5 acre  pasture where I had 4 mares and 3 other yearling fillies with her.  My 2 guard Boxers never made a sound and I never heard a sound from the other horses much less from a attack trained Doberman Pincher from next door.    Good luck !


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## Baymule (Mar 14, 2015)

The 5' horse wire with 8' T-post would give you 2' of post in ground and 6' for fence. Top with two strands of hot wire for 6' fence. Bossroo summed up the predator report.


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## Onyx (Mar 14, 2015)

If coyotes are that deadly, then basically they are going to eat everyone's livestock no matter what you do then, lol.  They must have gone on a radical self-improvement plan since the coyotes we dealt with at the trail riding/farm I worked at, where they were basically a danger to chickens, ducks and cats and that's a bout it (they used to surround the tent where I slept at night, because the barn kittens would come in and sleep with me... I'd stick my head out and yell BOO! and they'd run screaming in terror).  I guess I will just have to make my fences as tall as possible and hope for the best.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 14, 2015)

My Dh was reading over my shoulder and said the same as you!

Truly it does depend on your region and how bad the problem is but good fencing is always a great start!  As far as the rest I think too many "expect" a problem. 

We have 4 ft and it has always been no problem... all the what ifs can make a person crazy and spend unnecessary $ and at the same time the majority of all farm fencing is 4 ft high. We have several areas that are 6 ft and that is where there may be farm visitors.. we needed extra barrier between them and our LGD's. 

Coyotes here are pretty bad and getting worse. Some knucklehead thought "gee why don't we bring in coyotes to cut down on the deer population"... yeah that was brilliant! Not as bad as Bossroo describes but here yeah they will snatch a small dog off their own porch in a second. They will eat a calf while being born, foals too, they are a nuisance here. We do have LGD's and they are worth everything to us!  Pretty much there isn't a farm around our area that doesn't have a couple of LGD's. 

You'll know what ya need.


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## Onyx (Mar 14, 2015)

It's really hard to know because I don't know anyone in the area I can ask.  I mean with that much forest all around I'd expect there'd be plenty for the wild animals to eat without having to go to extremes to get into my pens but who knows.  With the goat pen being relatively small I may just cover the top as well.


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## luvmypets (Mar 14, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> My Dh was reading over my shoulder and said the same as you!
> 
> Truly it does depend on your region and how bad the problem is but good fencing is always a great start!  As far as the rest I think too many "expect" a problem.
> 
> ...


We rarely see coyotes around where we live, but the other day we saw a dead one on the side of the road. Its a reminder that you arent always safe no matter where your located.


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## babsbag (Mar 14, 2015)

We hear the coyotes nightly and see them on occasion. I have a hot wire at the top of the fence on the outside and at the bottom and I am sure the coyotes have tested it. Saw places in our field with no hot wire that they were coming right over a 4' no climb; we put up a wire and no more coyote. The LGD on most small farms work by intimidation and they don't have to interact with the coyotes, just stay inside the fence and be big and bark a lot. Works well. I have friends that have lost goats to coyotes before dogs and no loss afterwards.


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## Marge23 (Mar 15, 2015)

I don't really have predator problems at. We do have coyotes but they have never been a problem. We also had two hunting dogs in a yard next to the pen too. But we still lock our goats up at night in a small shed/stall to keep them safe. It just ha 4 walls, a door and a locking gate. 

But idk if predators would be a problem during the day


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## MsDeb (Mar 16, 2015)

We hear coyotes but never see them at our place, and yesterday our next door neighbor was telling us he sees a bobcat in the wooded area between our houses about every night.  Oh, and a fox.  He was also saying his friend has seen wild pigs along the creek behind us.  So this morning I was especially thankful for Finn chasing off anything real or imagined before I went out to feed goats in three separate pens at pitch black thirty.  All that talk made me kind of nervous but still didn't see anything.......until I left for work.  I got a half block from my office and a coyote ran across the access road I was on sat in very well lighted, paved car dealership between a couple of really nice cars and watched me as I slowed almost to a stop just to see what it would do.  It just sat there.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 16, 2015)

I hit a coyote with my car last week.  Had to punch the gas and swerve all the way in the other lane to get that  sucker.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 16, 2015)




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## Onyx (Mar 19, 2015)

I may have the most ridiculously predator-proofed yard in my entire nation by the time I am done >_>


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## Southern by choice (Mar 19, 2015)




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## Latestarter (Mar 23, 2015)

Guard towers with armed guards and flood lights at all 4 corners. Lots of concertina wire rolls around the perimeter. I would use howitzers to soften up the nearby/surrounding forest area for predator prevention, and then use automatic trip wire claymores at critical points of ingress/egress   But that's me


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## Onyx (Mar 23, 2015)

I could totally do this.

OK I could do some of it.  Guard towers... concertina wire.  Boiling pitch.  Pit traps.

As an added bonus I'll be well prepared for the zombie apocalypse.


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## goatgurl (Apr 8, 2015)

@Latestarter just so you know, you're a mess.  @Onyx you don't listen to him, you may find the guard towers and concertina wire handy and the howitzers would be good to have but i really don't think you'll need the claymores.  lol.  i totally agree with the 2x4 horse wire with some electric and i would also think you might find an LGD pretty handy too.  i live on the edge of national forest and while we do have tons of coyotes they are small potatoes compared to the wild hogs, bears and mountain lions.  the neighbor to my south lost 6 calves to mountain lions and wild hogs last spring.  i don't think i could keep anything but a chicken in the house without my LGD.


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## Onyx (Apr 8, 2015)

@goatgurl ha ha ha yeah I am considering  my best choices in dogs right now.  I don't want a traditional LGD breed because I just won't have enough land for one and I don't want a dog that will continually be wanting to bust out and go exploring ten miles away.  I am trying to decide on a breed that's tough enough to confront a coyote but doesn't need 100 acres of land.  I am currently looking at Catahoula leopard dogs, standard schnauzers, and Bouvier de Flanders ( have owned schnauzers and bouviers but not the catahoulas).  

I am a bit more concerned about the coyote issue than I was before.  Some of the coyotes in NB are apparently coywolves, because as coyotes migrated from the east they passed through areas where they bred with wolves and brought that DNA with them.  They can be up to 70 pounds and are much more dangerous than the little slender, knee-high, 25 pound coyotes that I am more familiar with.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 8, 2015)

A wolf will kill a Bouvier  and a Giant Schnauzer  easily.
The leopard dog  50/50 shot.

LGD's needing massive land and constantly roaming is a *myth* and *it is in how they are raised and trained*.

People who say this all the time and their dogs roam and dig and climb and escape did not train their dogs properly. PERIOD!
*These dogs SHOULD bond with their humans, bond with their property and bond with their livestock. A happy dog with purpose does not wander, escape, climb etc.*


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## babsbag (Apr 9, 2015)

I really wouldn't give up on a traditional LGD. I have 2 on less than 2 acres and they are fine. I do have a hot wire on the top of the fence and my dogs don't challenge the fence at all. Many of my friends have LGDs on 5 acres or less, wouldn't live without them.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 9, 2015)

Our only issue with our Pyrenees was he wandered to the neighbors house because he saw them through the trees and they gave him TREATS! UGH! We fought tooth and nail to break him of visiting the neighbors after that and never could... THEN he taught our collie to visit them too. I swear they think that they need to protect their land as well as ours... BUT with a fence we could have contained him. The digging in a pyr is natural instinct from what I have found. They will dig anywhere, not usually under a fence. We finally broke our boy of it at about 11 months old. But we had to keep him on a leash to do it. Our boy was also a house dog kenneled during the day while we were not home. He did fine and I know many who have their pyrs as non working dogs in town who do amazing.  They really are amazing dogs. (IF you are concerned with a pure Pyr you can usually find Pyr crosses, that cross can tame down the wanderlust in them) we now have a 1/2 pyr, 1/4 maremma, 1/4 saint bernard pup who does not wander AT ALL. Even when the collie decides to visit the neighbors. But collies also make good LGD's according to the breeder we got ours from. Hers guard the chickens, goats, horses and family. They guide with gentle heart and protect with a fierce heart. Our girl has, and will continue to, protect us with her life and she has just turned a year old. Collies are also known not to wander.


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## Onyx (Apr 9, 2015)

@Southern by choice There are no wolves in NB, these are coywolves (which IMO would be more dangerous in some ways to a human... on average, not as large, though).  And tbh I would not be worried about wolves.  If I had a large area of land where a wolf could come and take a goat without getting too close to people, maybe.  But I think the chances of a wolf coming to an acre of fenced land with human habitation inside is pretty slim even if there were any around.  Wolf crosses and stray dogs would be much more likely.  I actually grew up living very close to wolves and only got a glimpse of them a couple of times.  One was a pretty funny story that maybe I'll tell some time xD

I actually brought up the LGD issue in another thread and I believe you actually agreed that the area I have is too small (thinking pyrs here, as that is the breed that is semi-commonly available... at least here in the west.  East seems to be a different story x_x).  I have only one acre, and that acre won't be all open space, it will be divided up into paddocks.  I could train the dog but that doesn't mean it would be a happy dog. I mean all dogs are going to have some amount of desire to take off and explore but I would rather avoid a breed that seems to have wanderlust as one of its main breed traits (which seems to be the case from what I've been reading, I have no personal experience with them).  

Then again it's not like the dog would be confined to the property at all times, either. 

@Samantha drawz A cross would be a possible choice.  But as with all crosses you have the possibility of getting all the behavioral aspects of the non LGD breed, which won't necessarily do you any good xD  

If I go with the Catahoula (and can actually get them, once I move east x_x) I would get two as they are usually worked together.

Of course leopard dogs may not be the most practical choice, as they are short-coated and winters in NB are long and cold.  I can't see leaving a leopard dog outside all night in the winter...

Ideally I'd love to have a Tibetan mastiff of Caucasian dog   I've wanted one for over 20 years.  They are a true LGD but I don't see as much about them tending to wander as the pyrs.  The only problem there is that they are extremely rare in Canada.  I could perhaps look to the States.  I cannot imagine much of anything taking on a Tibetan mastiff xD  I also like that they are a more "primitive" breed and being relatively few/new here the CKC hopefully has not had time to ruin the breed yet *cough*.  

I haven't really taken ANY breed completely off the table though.  It might be a case of finding the right Pyr or other LGD.  Every dog has a different temperament.  I find that a lot of breeders these days don't have any idea about the temperaments of their pups, though.  I bred and trained dogs many years ago, and I always watched my pups very closely from the start and conducted puppy testing so that I would have the best possible idea of their individual temperaments and tendencies.  Then I would ask people interested in buying a pup, what they were looking for in a pup, and only show them the pups that I thought would be the best fit for them.  This avoided having people fall in love with a pup that I knew was unlikely to be a good match for their situation based on looks alone.

These days when I ask about temperament in puppies, though, usually the answer I get is "oh they are all nice".  It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine as I always saw knowing my pups as part of my responsibility as a breeder and a big part of the price of the pup - the time I invested in bringing them up.  Now it seems that people feel their pups have intrinsic value simply because they are this or that breed or color :/


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## samssimonsays (Apr 9, 2015)

I completely agree with you @Onyx Thankfully I am the same as you are, even with my rabbits. If a rabbits temperament is not a good fit for someone then I wont show it to them. And I also agree on the mixes not getting the LGD traits  we have 3/4 LGD in our boy and out of 12 pups 11 got the LGD traits... our boy got ALL of the bernard traits   He is finally finding his bark and may have hope yet but he was raised LGD style with livestock and although we wanted a pet, we would have liked MAYBE a little backbone in him as well . Eventually we will get another LGD and most likely Pyr but I am leaning more towards Collie as I have seen the true working collies in action and they can definitely handle the weather here in Northern Minnesota outside all year round. Our pups now will be out with the goats during the day but not so much at night due to they are spoiled and the Collie sleeps in our bed, Saint Pyrenees on the floor next to it... SPOILED. 
We have a wolf issue near us (they have a dwindling food supply in deer and are no longer afraid of the people. they are being hit on the road in town middle of the day) as several people only 5-10 miles away from us have had their dogs killed by wolves. Another person only 1 mile the other direction from us had their dog killed as well... Goats will be locked up here at night safe and sound in a shelter and the dogs with them during the day in their pen. Hopefully that will help keep the wolves at bay. We also have 2 cougars within 5 miles either direction of us. I have to go out to my barn with the gun as it is  but we make due. I hope you find the right pup for your purpose and know a working dog is a happy dog no matter the space he has.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 9, 2015)

Onyx said:


> Ideally I'd love to have a Tibetan mastiff of Caucasian dog  I've wanted one for over 20 years. They are a true LGD ....



The Tibetan Mastiff is NOT a true LGD they are a guardian breed used to patrol the villages at night from marauders. They were not utilized as a LIVESTOCK Guardian... although they guarded all from intruders.
As far as the Caucasian I just shake my head... in some parts of the world yes they are but these dogs have not really been used for LG in a long time...

Occasionally I see dogs being shown in the US as LGd's but you have to  know the truth behind many of these pics. 

I worked with the TM 25 years ago and there is a great deal of mis info . If you google search the pics they show these vicious bear like dogs. There have been many people taking dogs like the TM and The Co's etc and wanting them Vicious and training them for fighting. Happening with the Kangal too. 

I too have an appreciation for the TM. Stubborn beyond any other breed I know of, majestic, loyal.  

A Livestock guardian breed is generally not human aggressive. Although they certainly can be. 

The way LGD's are raised up here in the states and the ridiculous suggestions that you see on many LGD forums are not the way LGD's were raised throughout history.

I do agree taking 1 acre and dividing it and expecting the dog to have enough t do may not work... BUT if you will raising the dog to be an all around LGD/companion and part of your overall life then yes it is doable.


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## Onyx (Apr 9, 2015)

@Samantha drawz I hear you on the wolf issue.  Any animal who loses their natural habitat and are being squeezed from all sides are going to change their behavior and/or die off...  I wish we could just learn to leave some wild land for the animals that were, after all, here first.  Luckily I will be living in the literal middle of nowhere... there *should* be plenty of prey animals for wild predators, but I fear the area has had some logging activity since the time the google earth images were taken so, I guess I will have to see the state of things when I get there.

Unfortunately it's also a fact that wolves get blamed a lot for "crimes" perpetrated by wild dog packs and wolf-dog crosses.  I was reading a study a short time ago where they did DNA testing on "wolves" shot by ranchers who claimed they were preying on their stock, etc.  None of the animals were actually wolves, but a mix of coyotes, dogs, and various crosses between wolves, dogs and coyotes.

I am hoping to one day be able to snag the 8 acre parcel adjoining mine, no one is using it, there used to be a mobile home there apparently but it has since been removed.  If I do get it I hope to be able to leave some of it alone as a tiny wildlife refuge.

@Southern by choice I am not really looking for a dog to do a fully traditional LGD role though.... the dogs won't be out traveling with large flocks or anything.  I want a dog that will, as you mentioned with the TMs, protect my "villiage" - my homestead - including my small dogs/cats/property/the people in general.  The dog will be fully integrated with my lifestyle, not simply turned out with a flock (though I know that's not what you are supposed to do with LGDs in any case).

It seems that my chosen dog breeds always end  up being the stubborn ones   I love my Frenchton (ok, not officially a breed... I think of it more as a "type"),  but even basic tasks like house training are not for the faint of heart where Frenchtons are concerned >_>

Unfortunately you are very right that people seem to be determined to ruin and destroy dog breeds these days.  Unethical show breeders and idiots breeding dogs to be vicious on purpose enrage me.  Of the two I believe that show breeders have done the most damage to the most breeds over time.  I am not at all against purebred animals or showing, in fact I used to breed and show rabbits, but I think the general mentality surrounding dog breeding for show purposes is incredibly damaging.  That is not to say there are not ethical show breeders, of course there are, but the unethical show breeders have managed to destroy breed after breed despite that.

I will fully admit I am not as knowledgeable as I'd like to be about guardian dogs in general.  I have read and studied as much as I can, but as you say, it's very difficult to pick out the good info from the bad.  I usually find that in the end I need to have some hands-on experience before I will really know what is what.  

I will have to keep my eyes open and see what comes up!


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## goatgurl (Apr 9, 2015)

Onyx, have you researched other breeds other than the pyr's or pyr crosses?  i have a Maremma who is quite content to stay up and close to my house.  they are 'flock dogs'.  bred to stay close to their flock.  she also guards the house, chickens, rabbits, etc.  if and when the goats browse the 60 acres she is with them and when they are up in the pen up by the house she is there too.  she gets along fine with the house dogs and the old cat.   DS#1 has a karacachen sp? and he has been raised on less than 1 1/2 acres and very happy to just be with his girls..   i agree with southern by choice that you would have to choose your pup carefully but it can definitely be done.  as i said before we have some large predators around here and i think for the most part Katies big bark deters them as much as anything.  wild hogs and mountain lions respect no one but that don't ignore that bark.  mostly you just need to do what feels right for you.


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## Onyx (Apr 9, 2015)

@goatgurl unfortunately there is not a lot of variety here so unless I look at importing or shipping, my choices are few.  There is a litter of tibetan mastiff x maremma semi-close to here, amazingly, but my brother is gone and won't be back for three weeks or so still, so I can't get to them to check them out. He's my driver.


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## Onyx (Apr 10, 2015)

Put more thought into this.  

The only dogs that I can think of that I'd want to have other than the traditional LGD breeds are short-haired and that is just not going to work in the climate I'm moving to.  I am going to go with a LGD breed and if it needs more exercise than what it would normally have on the farm, we are already accustomed to taking hikes with my Frenchton anyways.  The livestock can be securely penned up if we are away and take the dogs with us.

The logistics are going to be a bit tricky but I have a few options including having a friend in Alberta pick up a pup for me that we can then pick up ourselves on the way through.  There are a lot more working LGDs in Alberta.  My only concern is how much of a disruption it would be to have a pup away from livestock for several weeks between pickup and arrival at our new place.  I may have to risk missing a good pup if it will mean too long a separation period.  Maybe @Southern by choice can advise?   I'd also like to pick up a good book or two on training if anyone has recommendations.  It doesn't compare with hands-on knowledge, but it will give me a start, anyways.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 10, 2015)

I wouldn't believe it would cause too much of an issue as you do want them to bond with their humans. my pups will have been away from livestock (aside from my husband and myself and rabbits that it) for a year for one and 6 months for the other. The older of the two is amazing with them still.


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## Onyx (Apr 10, 2015)

Is that going to be the case for baby pups who have not actually learned their job yet though?  I believe there's a critical bonding period when they are little, at least that's what I've read...


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## samssimonsays (Apr 10, 2015)

If they are started off with the breeder they usually already have that start of a bond, from people around me, in Minnesota, breeders recommended We keep pup either inside with us or penned in the barn separate from the livestock until they are a little older when you're not supervising for their own safety. Most reputable breeders will not sell a working pup or a giant breed pup until 12 weeks around my area. Some are starting to move towards that age with most breeds because they do learn critical things from mom in that Time frame. I'm not a breeder, nor expert but I have friends who raise pyrs strictly and have owned 2 lgd breeds now. It wasn't until after We brought our first home that We found out about the red flags the people gave off. They sold them just like any other puppy. But I Guess that's not supposed to be the case. Like I said, only from what I have been told since. I pick my breeders much more carefully now.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 10, 2015)

Honestly I am not a fan of any of the LGD books on the market nor am I a fan of the LGD forums.

The overall philosophy in many of these books as well as on the forums is not conducive to the raising of a good LGD.
Sadly most do not understand how the ancient dogs were actually reared. In the states we have this ridiculous philosophy that there should be a hands off approach.

I am currently raising 10 Anatolian Pyr pups and 2 pups just flew in from CA. NONE of my dogs leave til 12 weeks and most stay for extra training til 16-20 weeks. 

I am hands on with every dog. I am a trainer and most people breeding these dogs and selling them are not nor do they have what it takes to support a person getting them.

*Sometimes a breeder will keep a dog longer for training but in reality all they are doing is leaving them with mom and dad longer. THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE!  We all hear about imprinting and how parent stock "trains" them up. That is a little misleading.
They are two different subjects and other issues arise from just "leaving  them in with mom and dad".*

Biggest issue with LGD's failing and having problems is purely owner/handler related. People mess up their dogs.

Example- a lady I talked with not long ago _thought maybe her LGD might be _chasing goat kids. Never saw the dog chase but said there was wet on a kid's neck. 
This is our conversation:
*ME*:Ok so this could be drool from drinking water, the dog could be mouthing etc... I don't know... since you haven't seen this you need to be watching, I can't see your dog so I don't know.
_*PERSON:* Wellllll, I guess I might be able to do that on Wednesday._
*ME*: uh, today is Sunday.... why would you wait til Wednesday?
_*PERSON:* Welll, I am kinda busy today and it is going to rain for the next 2 days so I guess it will have to be Wednesday._
*ME:* Well ok then, hopefully the dog isn't mouthing and chasing or you may have a dead kid by Wednesday.
Do you understand that correction if needed needs to happen whether it is raining or not?
_*PERSON:* Silence._
The person was offended. Nice lady too and sweet as can be but just is simply not thinking.

Dogs should also be matched to their specific environment.
Proper human bonding is important, proper livestock and/or territory is important.
Above all RESPECT for the dog.
Honestly so many people EXPECT the dog to fail and the dog does because they do things to really confuse the dog.
Most people never follow through. I get a lot of calls and very rarely do people actually follow through. 

In all honesty if you don't have time to work with the dog or you do not have an environment proper for the dog don't get one.
I don't mean that harsh either. I see so many that think 15 minutes on a weekend is going to be enough and it is not.

All of our dogs successfully go through a kidding and can be alone with babies BEFORE 1 year of age. They do not chase, nip, chew ears off, escape their fencing, dig , or chase goats.
We have all our dogs do house visits, they are all house trained, acclimated to our house dogs (all but my one female pyr- she hates the GSD) loyal loving excellent guardians.
From the time they are walking they are being loved on encouraged and nurtured. Everyday I am with my pups through out the day, it may be as short a timeframe of 1 minute to refill buckets, or out in the field cleaning up while they are all around.
No matter how long I look at each pup and I tell them how GREAT they are. What an incredible boy he is. Trust, friendship is a biggy here.

I believe my LGD's to be my partners. We are partnering together to run a farm. I do things my dogs can't and they do the things I can't.

As you can tell I am very passionate about these dogs. Each pup has a part of my heart.


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## Onyx (Apr 10, 2015)

@Southern by choice I fully fully agree with you.

I think the whole idea of having your dog not bond with you because then it won't be able to do its job is bizarre.  It's like when I was breeding ferrets and people told me I would never be able to successfully breed them if I handled the parents.  Say what???  Completely and totally untrue.

I work from home and anticipate spending most of my day working outside with the farm and animals and working on my indoor job in the evenings.

I realize that the dogs need training and need me to be around to guide them.

Like I said, dog breeding sure seems to have changed since I was doing it.

When I was breeding, it was something you put a lot of time and commitment into it, that's why people would pay me money to adopt my dogs, because they were getting a pup that had had hours and hours of work put into socialization and early training and evaluation, not just $$$$ because the dog is x breed and dogs of x breed are worth x dollars.

Some people that I've seen selling "livestock guardian dogs" when you investigate further their dogs don't even live with livestock...

Others, the adult dogs live with livestock but the puppies have just been raised in a box in the barn and never seen a sheep or goat and are being sold at 8 weeks old.

I am also getting SO much conflicting info on barking.  A dog that barks to alert to an intruder or potential intruder is fine.  But I am seeing a lot of "informative" pages saying that LGD breeds basically bark non-stop at everything from blowing leaves to chipmunks.  A dog like that would drive me out of my mind and I can't believe my goats are going to be happy living with a dog that barks its head off all day and night either.

I teach my dogs what is appropriate to bark at and what is not... but I'm getting conflicting info as to whether it is possible to train an average LGD breed what constitutes approprite barking and what does not.


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## Onyx (Apr 11, 2015)

Well, I have a new pup.

I found a breeder the next province over with working stock maremma pups.  He has been breeding the for 20+ years.  They are older pups, not babies, they were born in the sheep pen and also already well  used to cats being around which is a big plus for me.  I explained my situation and he chose a pup for me that he thinks will best suit my situation.  He is I believe, one of those who believes that there shouldn't be more interaction than necessary with LGDs but as soon as I said "small acreage" he said that naturally a dog living on a small acreage would be expected to bond closely with his people and household pets so I was glad that he understood what I wanted right away.  He is going to hold the pup till we come through and is going to make sure she is well socialized with people.


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## babsbag (Apr 11, 2015)

Hope your new pup is all that you hope it will be.

As far as the barking...my female toli/pyr only barks when needed, I didn't train her, that is just her. When she barks I listen.
My male toli/pyr barks a little more, but now that he is 2 he has settled down a lot. The nights are fairly peaceful.

The pyr/maremma that I had barked at falling leaves and falling stars and everything in between. He barked all day and all night. I dang near slept in the barn with him trying to train him, but I can't see, hear, or smell what he did so hard to say what triggered him. He drove me and the neighbors crazy.

Before getting my dogs I had many people tell me that theirs bark all night long, non stop. That is a horrible habit and not something a good LGD should do.  There is no reason for it.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 11, 2015)

I was told pyrs will bark non stop. Not true. Our boy was very dominant and barked a lot Yes. But, when my husband was home he was relaxed. If it was me, he was a bit more alert, anyone house sitting and he was high alert. The more comfortable We felt at hone the less alert he was. He'd lay at the top of the stairs of our split level and some nights he'd see his head in the top windows, it looked like Someone peeking in and he'd bark. Lol. But that's understandable! It was when our collie puppy would come running and see herself in the side windows and start barking that they'd really get going.    I am glad you found a puppy. And that the breeder can determine a good fit for you and is willing to do that!  We unfortunately bought our boy the day before he turned 8 weeks old. Wasn't until he was nearly 6 months old We found out it was not good for them.


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## Onyx (Apr 11, 2015)

@babsbag I sure hope mine does not fall into the last category @_@  But it's impossible to tell ahead of time.  I was going crazy reading from one source that "Pyrs aren't quite as noisy as some other LGD breeds" and then "Maremmas will bark to alert you of something important, but are not extremely barky like a pyr."  It seems that in some cases whatever the breed that person fancies, they will talk up their good points and downplay the bad points   I will just have to see how it goes and do my best.

The breeder picked me out a more laid-back pup since we both agreed that'd probably be best for my situation.  As long as she is not so laid back that she fails to chase off the coywolves (wolyotes??) xD  Hopefully this will mean she's not as apt to be a crazy barker.  I lived with a room mate whose dog barked non-stop and it drove me nuts, but he was a very high strung, sensitive dog.


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## Latestarter (Apr 11, 2015)

Congrats on the new pup!   Glad you were able to get a true LGD breed and I hope & think it will prove just "right" for you! It's not like you have no experience with dogs... Since you will only have a small area for the dog to protect, I'm sure it will fare just fine against a coyote of any size. The only problem it might encounter would be against a pack, and in that case, i would think it would raise the alarm and have your assistance in fighting the pack off.


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## LilValleyRanch (Apr 15, 2015)

What helps to protect from Coyotes is having a couple Llamas ( they guard your Goats) and they get along great with My Goats!!


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## Onyx (Apr 15, 2015)

While I certainly wouldn't mind having a llama or two, I think I'll already be pushing it with grazing on my acre since I want to have a pony or two ^^;  I hope to expand to more acres eventually, though.


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