# Down Buck



## Farmer Connie (Nov 11, 2017)

Brief history..
My Vet came out 4 days ago approx to evaluate my Buck who has become lazy.
His poo is normal and almost text book perfect. He did get into some medicated chickens food prior so our Doc loaded a needle with thiamine and we also checked his eye lids and he was anemic. So we dosed him with Cydectin as instructed.
Since that day, he has become weaker, even though I admin nutri drench twice a day and been keeping him hydrated. He is too weak to stand so I have been moving him to fresh bedding locations in intervals to keep him semi clean.
I was instructed to keep him off grain and stick with a green diet such as timothy or o/a. He has lost so much weight. Today I allowed him to have a tiny bit of grain and he woofed it down like a child with an ice cream bowl for dinner.
I am using bounce back but not as an only hydration source.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Thank you in advance.


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## Latestarter (Nov 11, 2017)

Sorry to hear... You'd said you had a wether with UC issues... Is it possible the buck might have them as well? Just curious. Hope you get it figured out. @Goat Whisperer @frustratedearthmother @babsbag @Fullhousefarm  @anyone else?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 11, 2017)

You said the poo was normal and textbook perfect... what do you mean?
Did the vet do a fecal? 
Anemia can occur for other reasons besides high parasite loads.
If there was a high parasite load and he was wormed, rapid detachment of parasites can cause a goat to go down. 
Did he have a temperature?

I would be drenching him with probiotics asap. We use the powdered probios mixed with water and drench.
If he is severely anemic did the vet give iron?
I would consult with your vet immediately, ask about giving red-cell (it is for horses). It is over the counter, but NOT labeled for goats so you really want to consult about dosages etc.

What kind of feed are you feeding? (Brand)


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## Fullhousefarm (Nov 14, 2017)

With that information my best bet would be a high worm load- probably barberpole, though of coarse there could be other causes. I see you are in Florida like I am. They are bad here, and once the goat goes down it's a really hard battle to win. 

I'd certainly get a fecal if the vet didn't do one. Then you know if the wormer took care of the load (or it's something else all together...) and he just needs supportive care, or if he still has a heavy worm load that needs treated. In the mean time he needs to stay hydrated, and needs extra vitamins, iron, and I personally would add in a goat feed- but slowly if it's not part of his diet already. Many times oak leaves are something they will eat even if they don't want to eat other things though it doesn't sound like that's a problem for him now. I'd try to find some peanut hay. Higher in protein but easier on the stomach than Alfalfa or even grain for goats who aren't used to a richer diet. You should be able to find it in your area. 

I would certainly ask the vet about red cell and perhaps even about using banamine to help him feel better and get up and moving again. Not sure how close you are to UF, but they have a great large animal department that is good with goats- and not super $$- especially if they aren't boarded there.


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 16, 2017)

I am still learning the ropes on this site._ I will update soon._ I just found my posting. He is doing better but slowly. THANK YOU


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 24, 2017)

I have been avoiding the subject because of my feelings for this very gentle natured goat. It is never the bullies or the rotton disposition ones who go lame.

Jr would not hurt a flea. He was a complete gentleman and a true companion.
We have been nursing him back to health with little or not progress. Yesterday gave us 7 inches of rain. Ants moved into his stall and began to consume him alive. I franticly hosed him off and cleaned out the stall and re bedded it with fresh material. Put a heat lamp on him to bring his temp back up. Drenched him with eletro's and covered the doorway to let the heat build up. That was a sundown.
Early this morning I found him in an cold rain puddle about 20 ft from the stall. He must of dragged himself out there during the rain last night. He was shaking real bad. I managed to get him back into the stall. I placed a blanket over him. He has one horn stuck in the floor and his head cocked upward. Will not take a drench. He is on deaths doorstep right this minute of this post.

This is a photo from last night. Prior to the hypothermia episode this morning. It's hard when you become attached to something. 



 
What is a humane way of ending this suffering? Can I overdose him with banamine or will that cause more suffering?
I am suffering as well from a broken heart. I just want to end this ordeal.
I do not have enough money to have my vet come back out.
Please do not suggest a bullet in the head. Thank you.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 24, 2017)

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this and I'm sorry you don't want to hear the suggestion that most here would make.  In honesty, there is not much more of a quick, humane way to end his suffering without calling out your vet.   Sounds like this guy has suffered enough.   If you can't do it is there someone you can call who will?


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 24, 2017)

sorry to hear you are facing this  it is never easy to face, sorry I don't have any suggestions.


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## Latestarter (Nov 24, 2017)

Really sorry Connie... You don't want to use the most humane method.  I have heard but can not confirm that an air bubble in a major artery will cause an embolism and kill the recipient rather rapidly. You could call your vet and ask if this is in fact viable. If it is, a syringe with air in it injected into an artery should end his suffering very quickly.  Sorry you're losing your buddy.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 24, 2017)

Sorry LS - doesn't look like that will work.  

_www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/local_resources/.../emergEuth_sheepgoat-1.pdf_
"_*Unacceptable Methods of Sheep & Goat Euthanasia
Ethical and humane standards of euthanasia DO NOT permit the following methods of euthanasia for sheep and goats: • Manually applied blunt trauma to the head. • Injection of chemical agents into conscious animals (e.g., disinfectants, certain electrolytes such as KCl, nonanesthetic pharmaceutical agents). • Air embolism (e.g., the injection of a large amount of air into the circulatory system). • Electrocution with a 120-volt electrical cord*_."


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

You are clearly grieving this guy and understandably so. My bucks are my heart. 
I read your last line but it needs to be said.
Every suggestion you or others have made is what is inhumane.
In .004 of a second his suffering will end. There is no more humane way than to do this.
We have had to do this to a few goats over the years, it is not easy, it is very painful for the human heart.
We like to think these other methods are better but they are not, they take far longer than people know.
Ending suffering for the animal is the priority, setting aside our feelings to do what is right and fastest for the animal cannot be selfish.
Do what is right, don't make him suffer any more.  


I want you to know, I absolutely do feel the agony and the pain of what you are going through. It is because I can see how much you love him that I want to encourage you.


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 24, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Did the vet do a fecal?


* Not this time. At the time of her visit she was her to see a young wether who was suffering from urinary calculi. During that period, Jr Buck wasn't that bad. Is was starting to head down hill but could still walk but had rapid weight loss. A week prior he busted into the turkey pen and ate a bunch of medicated feed. The Dr. injected him with Thiamine and instructed us to dose him with our cydectin which we already had handy.*


Southern by choice said:


> Did he have a temperature?


* Not this time. She has on young does in the past that had scours but not this time with the Buck. He has had no problem urinating so calculi was ruled out.*


Southern by choice said:


> I would be drenching him with probiotics asap.


*We have been giving him Probiotic  plus paste.*


Southern by choice said:


> If he is severely anemic did the vet give iron?


*No again. I do have a large bottle of Red Cell that we drench baby pigs with. I don't know the dosage for goats.*


Southern by choice said:


> but NOT labeled for goats so you really want to consult about dosages etc.


*I could have  tried a 2 to 4 cc drench I suppose.*


Southern by choice said:


> What kind of feed are you feeding? (Brand)


*He is off grain completely now(VET'S ORDERS). In the days before the troubles, It was a custom blend wet stock 11% packaged for J & J Tack, a local store in our neck of the woods. THEN when Rurl King came to town we jumped on to the save a $ or 2 bandwagon and started using their brand of all stock wet 11%. Grain is always in moderation and not daily. He wasn't allowed with the nannies so it was easy to regulate his grain input volume.*



*R K Wet All Stock Tag off bag:*







*J & J Wet All Stock Bag Tag:*





Photo of the Thiamine Mononitrate we have been treating him with, 100mgs daily.

Probiotic Plus Paste. 5ml every other day.

The Iron sup I am about to attempt to drench. I am thinking 5ml.




I have been drenching ammonium chloride in small amounts to counter react the calcium carbonate in the B1 tabs.

Also free will Vitamins/electrolytes 


*
Until the last couple days, he has been eating a lot. Peanut hay and timothy.. bahia coastal. But took weak to stand.
I think all the ant bites messed him up bad. I dosed him with Banamine before this post..
*


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

I know you are doing everything and have been. These are the times when you feel like you wish you could just reach through the computer and somehow magically just "be there". Sometimes it is just standing with and sharing in the burden. 
I hate you are going through this with your guy.


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## RoahT (Nov 24, 2017)

So sorry for you!! Losing loved animals is NOT easy.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

Just so you know I meant the embolism, overdose to euthanize. Those things are not good, and do cause suffering.
My heart aches for you, I have been in the same exact position as you... except it was with a buck that had a gut infection from Chaffhaye- actually 2 bucks.   They are always worth fighting for. You have done so much and fought for this guy, you are a fighter and a great goat owner for doing so much and not giving up. 
I'm pretty awful at words, especially with these things... my words get jumbled, and don't always come out the way I am trying to say them.
So I will have to let computer hugs try to say what I feel.


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 24, 2017)

WE got almost 8 inches of rain yesterday on top of this. 17 piglets almost drown. A roof calapsed on a chicken hou se. I have been shoveling since yesterday..


 

 
I am a wreck today. Rescue the young pig litters is top on the list, and keeping red ants out of the bucks nose in between.
Yes that is a water drum in the new lake bed.
Trees are falling from soggy root systems as well. They shake the earth when they fall. Scarey stuff.


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## TAH (Nov 24, 2017)

Farmer Connie said:


> WE got almost 8 inches of rain yesterday on top of this. 17 piglets almost drown. A roof calapsed on a chicken hou se. I have been shoveling since yesterday..
> View attachment 40588 View attachment 40587
> I am a wreck today. Rescue the young pig litters is top on the list, and keeping red ants out of the bucks nose in between.
> Yes that is a water drum in the new lake bed.
> Trees are falling from soggy root systems as well. They shake the earth when they fall. Scarey stuff.


I'm so very sorry.... 

I can't imagine, I hope things settle down soon for you!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2017)

Sometimes you just have to breathe deeply and remind yourself that this too shall pass... and keep plugging along.
That is a LOT of rain. Very scary. I'm overwhelmed just reading what you are going through.
We have never had ants before but this year we have biting ants... they aren't true fireants but what is kind of a mixture. The goats have stepped in the nests several times. To top it off we also have yellow jackets this year and they burrow and nest in the ground... step on the hole and out they come.


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## RoahT (Nov 24, 2017)

Wow, that's crazy!! Be strong and keep going! 
One thing I thought of for your buck is that you might feed him the following recipe:
Mix 1/2 lb of seaweed and 1 lb of molasses together and add enough hot water to blend well, kind of like a paste. Then add enough milk to make it to where he can drink it. I had a friend who had a cow down and fed her this and she was up within minutes. I had a sheep down (much sicker than the cow example) and although she could not eat or drink very well I would squirt in into her mouth and she would swallow it. Sadly, she did not make it, by the time I had identified what she needed it was to late, but it seemed to make her stronger and more comfortable while she was alive. She was groaning from discomfortbut when I fed her the mixture she would stop groaning and got so much stronger I seriously thought she was going to pull through. Even if it doesn't save your buck, it has a lot of nutrients to strengthen the animals body and make him not feel so sick.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 24, 2017)

I am so sorry you are going through this. 
I know you do not like the bullet method, and I understand what a hard situation this is. Do you have anyone you can call to put him down? Any local farmers you can call? 
Of course no one "likes" that job- it is terrible. But there have been times where it is best just to call someone out to determine the deed.  

Please *DO NOT* inject an air bubble in a major artery. This is not an acceptable way of euthanasia. 

As for the buck, it sounds like he has several issues going … I wish the vet would have done a fecal- so that you know what parasites you are fighting. 

Red Cell is great for anemia. It has a lot of other "goodies" too. 

Was the goat ever treated for acidosis? How much chicken feed did he consume?


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## Bossroo (Nov 24, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Sorry LS - doesn't look like that will work.
> 
> _www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/local_resources/.../emergEuth_sheepgoat-1.pdf_
> "_*Unacceptable Methods of Sheep & Goat Euthanasia
> Ethical and humane standards of euthanasia DO NOT permit the following methods of euthanasia for sheep and goats: • Manually applied blunt trauma to the head. • Injection of chemical agents into conscious animals (e.g., disinfectants, certain electrolytes such as KCl, nonanesthetic pharmaceutical agents). • Air embolism (e.g., the injection of a large amount of air into the circulatory system). • Electrocution with a 120-volt electrical cord*_."


INTERESTING !!! Sometimes you can't believe every published article written by bleeding hearts.   I have done  the captive bolt pistal to the head, .22 bullet to the head,  electricution, and chemical euthanasia  at this very same institution  at the  Vet Med teaching hospital hundreds of times. In the right hands , they work instantly, except the air injection, as well as some common chemical  methods mentioned which DOES NOT work. Under your current surcomstances at this time and place, a .22 bullet to the goat's forehead would be the most effective and humane way to go.  Good luck.


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 25, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Red Cell is great for anemia.


I began a course of red cell yesterday afternoon. By sundown he was perched upright. Early this morning when I checked on him, he was sitting up. He is consuming peanut hay and his eyes are wide open now.
The medicated chicken feed was a full pan. He broke into the Turkey pen right at the begining of the feed. It was 3 days after that when he started losing weight.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 25, 2017)

Glad he is doing better! 
Can he move his legs at all? You need to keep the circulation to his legs going.


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## RoahT (Nov 25, 2017)

Halleluyah! so glad he's doing better!!! I hope and pray that he continues to improve!


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## babsbag (Nov 25, 2017)

Chicken feed, medicated or not can make them very sick. The rumen gets all out of balance pH wise and can be a challenge to treat, their rumen goes acidic and you need to buffer that with doses baking soda, magnalax, or any other product designed to buffer an acidic gut. But it is large amount you need to administer. My vet said to think of their rumen as a 5 gallon bucket and visualize how much that can hold and what you have to give to make a change in that much liquid. Of course you can do it gradually, but you are shooting for 1/2 c. of baking soda  or 1/2 lb magnalax in 2-4 quarts of electrolyte (no sugar) every day for 3 or 4 days.  Or a large bottle of pepto every day for 3 or 4 days.  Also treat with Pen G, Probiotics, and Banamine. 

Of course they may not be what is ailing your boy at all. I hope he continues to improve. Goats can be a challenge at times.


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 25, 2017)

*hugs*


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## RoahT (Nov 26, 2017)

If you feed your buck Aloe juice and baking soda it can really help normalize his stomach after the chicken feed.


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 26, 2017)

I am still on pins and needles BUT moments like this take the edge off the whole ordeal.

I had to share this photo. I am doing laundry today & I let out the twins. P.J. & Luck. They are 2 y/o.. I spoil these two because they are like pets more than livestock, so they are in the residents side we me today.

Ben, our Chocolate Lab is by my side and confused about the 2 goats on the front porch. Luck looks at Ben and sticks out his tongue at Ben.. nanny nanny boo boo!
Priceless photo...
I have Jr. the Buck out of the stall. Trying to get him to use his legs. He can stand to pee, then moves over a tad to avoid laying in it.
Eating peanut hay really well. Just nutridrenched him an hour ago.
Poor little fellow. His eyes are wide open now that I've started the Iron Treatments.


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 26, 2017)

blow up the pic & look at Luck's face..


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## Farmer Connie (Nov 26, 2017)

I have him in a clean lush spot while I clean out his stall.
He is putting on his Winter Coat just like the rest of the gang.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 26, 2017)

I'm glad he's doing better!  If it were me I'd still have a fecal run to see if you're dealing with anything else besides just the chicken feed issue.  It could  be a combination of several things.  Hope he keeps improving for you!


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 26, 2017)

x2! I was going to say the same thing.


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## babsbag (Nov 26, 2017)

x3 . If the red cell is helping I would keep that up but by all means get a fecal done. You can send them in if your vet won't do one for you at a reasonable expense. Glad that he is eating. I think I would get some calf manna or Goat Balancer (Tractor Supply should have it) and offer him a little, just a few tablespoons and see if that helps, they are really high in protein. 

@Goat Whisperer Can you post the link for the mail-in fecal samples?


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## RoahT (Nov 29, 2017)

Any update on the buck?


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