# Common Misconceptions and Frequently Asked Questions



## trestlecreek (Sep 2, 2009)

*Goats are brush clearers.  *
This is true to some extent, but they cant survive alone on brush. Goats are browsers by nature and would prefer weeds over grass. Unfortunately there are not enough nutrients/minerals on a pasture alone to provide everything necessary for a goat to thrive. Deer or other creatures in the wild may survive, but will not thrive and many suffer from diseases and malnutrition. When we have any animal in captive we are further limiting their resources, so its even more important that we feed them properly.



*My grandpa had a goat, he tethered it around the property, and it lived for years.*
Years ago it was common for people to obtain a goat and tether it to trees, tires, stakes, blocks, ect. Unfortunately we dont hear the stories of these goats that got caught up in the rope or chain and strangled to death. Or the goats that got attacked by dogs and could not free themselves. Goats by nature will try to bolt if they fear something, and they do not think quickly enough to realize they are attached to a rope, and will often get mangled. 


_*Give a goat the worst hay available, they do not need a rich legume hay. *_
This misconception is far from the truth. Goats require many nutrients, proteins, fats, minerals, and vitamins to keep in good health. A good legume hay is the only way to provide a big part of what they need. A low nutrient hay does provide the roughage they need, but no nutrients they can use. Alfalfa hay is the best source of hay available. Not only are you providing roughage that they need for their rumen, you are providing nutrients, proteins, and some minerals, and vitamins.


_*
Goats do not need a special grain, you can just throw them a little corn every now and then or horse feed if thats what you have.*_  If we had the perfect hay and the perfect pasture they may not require much grain, but the truth of the matter is that most goat farmers do not have the perfect ground and hay available. By feeding a grain specifically made and formulated for goats we can fill in the nutritional gaps that we can not provide through pasture and hay alone.

Corn alone is a bad feed for goats. It can ferment in their rumen and create gas that they can not belch up, leading to enterotoxaemia, acidosis, or bloat. A little corn in a particular mix is good for them, but in very little amounts. Sweet feed for horses is made for horses, not goats. Some research has lead us to believe that the molasses will tie up important nutrients and the nutrients will not be absorbed. Sweet feed has also been contributed to Urinal Calcification (the formation of stones in the track) in bucks and wethers.

_
*
I have a buck or a wether, how do I avoid UC?*_ 
There are many things we can do to avoid this problem. Providing clean fresh water daily is a start. The goat minerals we leave out for our goats also will help keep our goats drinking their water. Loose goat minerals have salt added that encourages drinking. Keeping their bodies well hydrated benefits them in many ways. Feeding a feed fortified with AC (Ammonium Chloride) also is a way to reduce your chances of seeing this disease. You can buy Ammonium Chloride and add it to their minerals or top dress their feed, however AC alone does not have a good taste, so the best way I have found is to feed a feed that has it incorporated.

Bucks and wethers need a properly balanced phosphorus-calcium ratio to help inhibit formation of stones. Grain products have high amounts of phosphorus and minimal amounts of calcium. In order to help keep this ratio in balance, alfalfa hay, which is high in calcium is the best for them. If feeding just grass hay, they will not recieve enough calcium to balance this out. High phosporus is the precurser for stone formation and they need the calcium so that the body can process the nutrients effectively.



*  How much land do I need for 2 goats? * 
Goats are the happiest and live the longest when they have plenty of freedom to run, play, hop, jump and browse. Their pasture needs to be able to support their eating, but still be able to grow before they eat it all the way down to the dirt.  If your pasture looks very tall in the summer, and may need mowed, your pasture can support the animals on it. If they eat it all down to the ground, there are too many goats in 1 area. When you have too many goats in one area, and they are nibbling the new growth as it comes on it invites them to ingest bacteria and worms.






_*
How can I tell if my goat is under weight?* _ 
There are many methods of figuring this out, but this is the easiest way for me to gauge if a goat needs to gain weight. You can run your hand over their top line/spine. If you can feel all the bumps of their spine, they are underweight.





*When and how often should I worm my goat? * 
The best way to tell if you need to worm is by having a veterinarian or vet. lab technician check the stools to see if its necessary. They can also identify what type of worm you are dealing with.



Normal Vital Statistics

Pulse -70 to 80 beats per minute

Rectal Temperature- 101.5 to 103.5

Respiratory rate- 12-20 per minute

Rumination- 1 to 1.5 per minute



Common Injection Types

Subcutaneous (subcut)  Under loose skin on neck, flank, withers, or elbow. Slow sustained absorption.

Intramuscularly (IM)  Muscle of hindquarters or side of neck. Rapid absorption


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## 2468herdsrgr8 (Sep 2, 2009)

Dont have any goats ...but someday I would like to get some ...thank you ! For all the quick information ...very intersting ...


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## trestlecreek (Sep 3, 2009)

You're welcome!!


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## DuckLady (Sep 3, 2009)

I have cleaned this thread up. Please be non confrontational and avoid rudeness when participating in threads. Thanks


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## Ninny (Sep 8, 2009)

Good post!


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## kimmyh (Sep 8, 2009)

If I can feel any of the bones in their spine they are under weight. Pygmy goats are a MEAT breed, and as such, should be well fleshed.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep, that goes for pygmy for sure, but there is not one goat breed that should have the spine protruding... or the ribs felt.....all of them should have some muscle on them,.....


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## username taken (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> *Goats are brush clearers.  *
> This is true to some extent, but they cant survive alone on brush. Goats are browsers by nature and would prefer weeds over grass. Unfortunately there are not enough nutrients/minerals on a pasture alone to provide everything necessary for a goat to thrive. Deer or other creatures in the wild may survive, but will not thrive and many suffer from diseases and malnutrition. When we have any animal in captive we are further limiting their resources, so its even more important that we feed them properly.
> 
> *Actually, goats are MIXED FEEDERS, NOT BROWSERS. WHat this means is, they prefer a mixture of grassy pasture, and browse. The current experts in goat research agree on this point - goats are not strict browsers, they are mixed feeders. *
> ...


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## freemotion (Sep 9, 2009)

As usual, ut, you are a fountain of wisdom!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 9, 2009)

ut said:
			
		

> Basically all you need to do is ensure his calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2 to 1. You can use any type of grain of this ratio, and feed as much as you want, without UC problems, as long as the Ca ratio is correct.


With all due respect -- and I do mean that, as I do respect your wisdom -- I have an intact UC buckling that goes against this..

The feed he was getting was 16% pelleted, 2:1 Ca, and even had ammonium chloride added.  Their water was always kept clean, too...._really_ clean, if you compare it to a lot of goat keeping practices I've seen around here.

He got urinary calculi anyway.

The root of this guy's problem, as best we could determine after the fact, was that he was likely gobbling down about 3/4ths of the grain we'd set out for him and his paddock mate -- another intact buckling -- then he'd go lay down in the shade while other buckling grazed on fescue and broadleaf weeds.  

In other words, he made it such that grain was almost his sole ration..  

We all know that goats need long fiber for a multitude of reasons, but one of the reasons I've come to (partially) understand is that the act of chewing and ruminating those long fibers does _something_ with phosphorus that keeps it from becoming so concentrated in the urine.  I dunno how it works exactly, but it's something to do with saliva...

Anyway...I guess my point is that even if a person is using a grain product that shoud, for all the world, be perfectly suited for bucklings, bucks, and wethers, that person would still do well to watch the intake of that grain and make _absolutely sure_ that the males are also taking in long fibers and plenty of water.

In other words, do everything I unfortunately DIDN'T do until it was too late..


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

This post is of course from my point of view.


*Actually, goats are MIXED FEEDERS, NOT BROWSERS. WHat this means is, they prefer a mixture of grassy pasture, and browse. The current experts in goat research agree on this point - goats are not strict browsers, they are mixed feeders.
-All goats will eat grass if they have to, but they normally do not like it!! By choice, they prefer browse...


If you teach a goat to tie and lead first, they will respect the tether as a restraint and will not bolt further than the length of the chain. Tethers, under supervision, are a fantastic way to keep goats if you do not have a goat fence. 

-Here again, this thread was posted for new people who are not as familiar with goat behavior. You have to realize that this is a basic article. Normally speaking it is not advocated to tie a goat out. I have done it at times, but under a special circumstance.

This largely depends on the breed and class of goat. Adult wethers for example, will do very well on very poor quality hay. Lactating dairy does in contrast, require the very best possible hay. 

-All together when looking at the goat diet, they all need a good feed and hay. To balance everything out, it is best to give them more nutrients than to deprive them.

Goats do not need specialised 'goat feed'. They will do just as well on cattle feed, and that is all mine get because I cannot get goat grain around here. Horse feed is fine also. Goats should not need much grain, particularly non producing goats such as adult wethers and adlt dry does. 
-Glad to hear about what works/has to for you. Generally speaking though, I have to recommend the very best....

Basically all you need to do is ensure his calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2 to 1. You can use any type of grain of this ratio, and feed as much as you want, without UC problems, as long as the Ca ratio is correct. A few other things to do is to limit grain to 1 cup per animal after 1 yr old; dont wether them until 12 wks, ensure their water intake is high (you can do this by adding salt to their grain, and probably the most important thing, include ammonium chloride in their diet either by addition to their feed, or by provision of an ammonium chloride or 'stone' lick block.
-To properly balance the Ca ratio, you have to look at the fact that all grain has too much phosphorus and the fact that calcium is limited dramatically in most other feedstuffs......My recommendation points most in the right direction with that, I'm not looking for a way around it.....

really, you could house 2 goats in a horse stable, if necessary, with plenty of excercise either off the leash or on it, but out of the stable.  
-That can be true, but here again, I recommend the best, not what is acceptable to some.

Google condition scoring goats. You want your goat around condition score 3 at all times
-Yes, if you use that scale. Most people are not extremely familiar with how those systems work,...I point that out simply so one can understand a bit before they dig further themselves....*


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## username taken (Sep 9, 2009)

_Edit to remove argument_

Regarding condition scoring of goats; your method is far too general and cannot apply to all breeds and classes of livestock. For example, a high producing dairy doe (who will always appear emaciated) cannot be compared to a meat wether who is being fed up for slaughter. You are correct in saying that not many people are familiar with the condition scoring system - that is why I urge every goat breeder on this board to FAMILIARISE themselves with it! Condition scoring is one of the most important tools in the goat breeders arsenal, and maintaining correct condition score is vital for goat health and welfare. Here, I'll even give you the link so you dont have to google it for yourself. 

http://www.smallstock.info/tools/condscor/cs-goat.htm





cmj, that sucks. You hit the nail on the head right there though, they do need the roughage alongside the grain. So perhaps I should say they can have as much grain as they want as long as they are eating roughage as well - and roughage for the boys should be grass or cereal hay, not alfalfa. Your boy got himself into a nasty cycle - goats do best on high roughage with only a tiny bit of grain - after all, that is what is most natural to them - and when they are on high grain and low ration, things get really screwy in their system. Everything gets out of balance, and that is why your boy found himself with a case of UC even with the correctly formulated grain. 

Its also worth mentioning here - Apple Cider Vinegar doesnt do a thing for UC.


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## username taken (Sep 9, 2009)

more condition scoring links

http://bedford.extension.psu.edu/agriculture/goat/Body Condition Scoring.htm

http://www.extension.org/pages/Goat_Body_Condition_Score


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## Blackbird (Sep 9, 2009)

Thankyou Keren, great post; all the words I wanted to type but didn't have the time to.

Trestle, I seem to remember you picking apart other's post before. Relax, its not the end of the world - yet.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 10, 2009)

_Edited......._


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

ut said:
			
		

> cmj, that sucks.


Big time...  If there's any silver lining, though, the boy's still alive and seems content enough for now, and I got a really good lesson in the cause, prevention, and treatment of UC.



			
				ut said:
			
		

> You hit the nail on the head right there though, they do need the roughage alongside the grain. So perhaps I should say they can have as much grain as they want as long as they are eating roughage as well - and roughage for the boys should be grass or cereal hay, not alfalfa.


Can I ask...why not alfalfa?

I was told the same thing by another person..  My thinking, though, is that alfalfa contains high levels of calcium..  Most UC stones are struvite (Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate), and calcium does something with the phosphorus to make it less...dangerous? for lack of a better word..  

I guess it just seemed to me that a high roughage, high protein, high calcium diet with only a tiny bit of 'training grain' would be pretty ideal for a growing male...?

At least that was the conclusion I drew...where am I going wrong?



			
				ut said:
			
		

> Your boy got himself into a nasty cycle - goats do best on high roughage with only a tiny bit of grain - after all, that is what is most natural to them - and when they are on high grain and low ration, things get really screwy in their system. Everything gets out of balance, and that is why your boy found himself with a case of UC even with the correctly formulated grain.


Yep..  He had half a bladder full of sandy MAP stones.  Literally, half his bladder....I saw it myself on the ultrasound.  

And you're right when you say...................


			
				ut said:
			
		

> Its also worth mentioning here - Apple Cider Vinegar doesnt do a thing for UC.


..................ACV is useless.  The acidic component of ACV -- acetic acid -- is the same as they produce in their rumen.  If acetic acid were enough to prevent UC, it wouldn't even be a thing in goats.

Ammonium chloride...that's the trick.  If anyone out there is raising male goats -- bucks, bucklings, or wethers -- and you don't have water soluble ammonium chloride on hand, order some.

Get some banamine and/or acepromazine, along with dexamethasone, too..  The urethral inflammation from passing UC stones can close the urethra just as effectively as the stones themselves.  Gotta treat that inflammation.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

Alfalfa is perfectly balanced cal to phos most of the year, it is the best value for the dollar as a goat feed according to my vet, a specialist contacted by other vets across the country, Canada, and Great Britain. Some goats will survive in spite of what they are fed, there is no doubt, particularly mixed breed goats, or what I think of as mustang goats. Those goats have had to survive on a poor diet for so many generations that they can seem to get by on even a bad diet. 

An underfed doe (she needs increased nutrition 3 months before conception, and for the first two and last two months of gestation) will draw from her bones and internal organs, thereby depleting her system, in order to feed her babies. This type of doe may survive to kid for many years, but not nearly as many as a well fed, well cared for animal. And by well fed, I don't mean obese, I mean well muscled, well fleshed. A walking skeleton is an advertisement for the breeder that they haven't done their job in getting a doe ready to be bred, and keeping her in condition throughout her pregnancy, plain and simple, in my opinion.

As to AC, the latest studies (again as reported by my vet from a recent conf) show that AC fed daily is actually counter productive to urinary health. Think of AC as goat Draino, if it is fed daily, then when there is an episode, it does not work as well. I drench with AC when the temperature changes hot to cold, cold to hot, and that's it. Since I have changed that part of my routine, I have not seen a case of UC in my 200+ herd. Table salt sprinkled on their grain to increase water consumption can help as a daily routine in the summer, and the first part of the winter.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

Oops, forgot to address the space issue. Goats can indeed handle smaller areas for a short time, IF the pen is cleaned every day. If not, add space, because feces in a goat pen can lead to a cocci outbreak in short order as the feces builds up. Goats are a lot like humans, if they are crowded they will fight more, and more goats will be injured.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

I just found an interesting write-up on Ca ..  Though it's intended for horse people, the writer has taken the time to list the common Ca and P values for certain forages and a really in-depth formula to calculate Ca for mixed hay..  

I did the math on Alfalfa/Orchard Grass, which is a really common hay to this area..  Assuming a 50/50 mix on a 50lb bale (round numbers  ):

Alfalfa:
	25lbs = 11.36kg total weight
	1.24% Ca = 140.9g 
	0.22% P = 25.0g 

Orchard grass:
	25lbs = 11.36kg total weight
	0.24% Ca = 27.3g
	0.30% P = 34.0g

Totals:
	168.2g Ca
	59g P

	168.2 / 59 = *2.85:1, Ca* ratio


...which is friggin perfect for goats, IMHO.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 10, 2009)

...also...  

If you consider that good Alfalfa runs somewhere between 16% and 22% crude protein, and orchardgrass runs somewhere around 7% - 10% or thereabout, then the total protein ranges somewhere between 12% and 16%.

Feed the lesser hay to your dry does and bucks, and the better hay to your milkers and kids.

Throw in a little grain here and there, just to keep them and their rumens accustomed to it enough that if you have to put them in the stanchion for hoof trimming or shots or whatever...or just so you can continue shaking a feed pan to call them in....

BAM...you're done.

Or, so it would seem, anyway.

This is sort of a validation for the things we've been doing at our place..  Plenty of alfalfa-mix hay, and just enough grain to get them out of the way while we're swapping out water buckets and putting fresh hay in the feeder..  That's pretty much it.

And we've STILL got a few head that are, quite frankly, so fat that they're starting to seriously give me pause as to whether or not they'll be safe to breed in a month or two.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

Feedablity/protein values http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/33/4/228.pdf

Calcium values http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_calcium.html


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## adoptedbyachicken (Sep 10, 2009)

Cleaned again folks, last chance.  Everyone has their right to their opinion and to give information with respect from all others.  No one is right or wrong, just present your point of view.

Further posting of popcorn just to incite may result in people taking some time off.  Just sayin'


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## ()relics (Sep 10, 2009)

My opinion:








when they are full or tired of the horses stepping on them they go out to the pasture....the 2 other bales scattered around the pasture look about the same chaos wise....They seem to have kids every year at least 1 sometimes 3....But what do I know? 
 I've never heard of the popcorn ration...but I'll check with my extension agent tomorrow<----That was a joke


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

abac said:
			
		

> No one is right or wrong....


Sometimes people ARE wrong.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, either...that's just a fact.  It's actually not all that uncommon for misinformation to be posted as though it's gospel on this forum.  I've seen it time and again...heck, I've even been guilty of it!

The difference between myself and some, though, is that when I'm corrected, I thank the person who corrected me whereas some folks here seem to be prone to report the person who corrected them.

Given that the topic of discussion here typically surrounds the health and welfare of animals, I believe a lot of us -- no, I *know* from PMs that a lot of us feel morally compelled to correct that bad information, or at least point out that it's opinion and not fact (as opinion is so often presented), and we do so on behalf of goats the world over.

Again...I'm not looking to stir up arguments, nor am I questioning anybody's moderating style.  I'm just pointing out that, yes, sometimes people are just patently wrong, and if we're not allowed to correct them, goats will die.

While I understand that bickering and backbiting can kill forums in a hurry, so will bad advice and information...and dead goats.  If this forum becomes known as a place where bad information is not only allowed, but encouraged, to stand unquestioned, nobody will trust it and it will fail just as any other forum would fail under the same circumstances.

I'm not sayin...I'm just sayin.


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

There is a ton of bad information out there, on many forums. Over time, I have come to the conclusion that we can't save every goat, as much as we might want too, and as hard as we try to give good information, there will always be those who don't bother to treat the goat, just complain, and those that want to treat with a witches brew. It is an unfortunate fact of life, and if I let every slight, or bad post ruffle my feathers, I would be one unhappy person. So cmjust0, deep breaths, deep breaths, no one is right all the time, many people do the wrong thing and get the right results, and isn't that what we all want, the right results?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

I know what you mean, believe me..  I lent a buddy some meds just a few days ago for a kid he'd been treating for worms..  

I don't think it had worms, though...pretty sure it was coccidiosis.  

We'll never know, though, because by the time I saw the little doeling she was already sunken in from dehydration...anemic...skin and bones...cold-nosed from a dead rumen...weak as water.

Needless to say, she died overnight.  She wasn't even my goat, but I was the last person to lay hands on her.  It just makes me really sad because she was a pretty nice little doeling who could almost certainly have been saved with less than a dollar's worth of di-methox, had it been caught early on..  

Sucks.

That's how it goes, though...I know that...but I still hate it, ya know?


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## freemotion (Sep 11, 2009)

Isn't the whole point of a FORUM to have discussions and get multiple viewpoints?  Then use the ideas as a springboard for new directions in our own research so that we can formulate our own conclusions?

At least that is what it is for me.  I want to hear (read) all opinions.  When people are asked to explain or justify their position on a topic, it becomes clear which ones are well-thought-out and which ones are just regurgitating something they heard or thought they heard.

If I wanted just one opinion, I'd buy one book, and get all my information from that.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

I agree, 100%.


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## Blackbird (Sep 11, 2009)

I still think its about people believing that one certain way of doing things is the only correct way. Everyone has their own animals to be worrying about, not someone elses, unless they ask. 

I honestly don't care how anyone raises their animals, as long as it works for that person. I may not agree with it, but I'm not going to tell them they're wrong simply because my opinion is different. Who am I to do that?

I do find it ironic that what some call 'witches brew' today is what many called conventional medicines years ago when they first started being used. All about opinion.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

I get where you're coming from, blackbird...I really do.  There are many, many situations where what works for one person will be catastrophic for another, and I've said as much myself on several occasions.

That's not exactly what I'm talking about, though..  Consider this scenario, for instance......

Let's just say someone comes here and states -- as a fact -- that tetanus anti-toxin provides extremely short term protection against the effects of a tetanus infection, and is basically useless as a prophylaxis.

Well, that's just wrong.

It's bad information and that person needs to be corrected in the open forum, lest someone else come in and read that in the future and put it into practice on their herd.  It's not a matter of opinion at that point -- indeed, it's widely accepted as fact that tetanus anti-toxin provides protection for up to 2 weeks..

As it turns out, that actually happened -- and it was _*ME*_ who made the incorrect statement.  I was corrected pretty quickly, and instead of hitting the REPORT button against the few folks who corrected me on account of hurting my feelings or singling out my "opinions" personally, I was like...oops...my bad!

I even went to another thread and corrected another statement I'd made to the same effect.

My point is...corrections truly need to be made sometimes.  I'm sure we can all agree that it's probably best to sprinkle a little sugar around when you're calling out misinformation, but suffice it to say that when it's happened to me -- especially in the tetanus instance -- there was no sugar coating.  It was like BAM!...you're wrong, here's what's right, end of story.

But, hey, that was fine with me.  The corrections, if not 'pleasant' per se, would be clear and concise to folks who run across them in the future.  That's what's _necessary_, as far as I'm concerned..

Anyway...that's mostly what I'm getting at.


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## Blackbird (Sep 11, 2009)

Thanks for clearing that up, I understand what your talking about then. If there is incorrect info it should be corrected.. Corrected by fact, not opinion.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)




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## trestlecreek (Sep 11, 2009)

Not to stir,.....
The problem though is that there are very few facts in this and especially in medicine,...that's the nature of the beast!
That's where a lot of info posted is just an opinion or point of view... heck, scientists can go round and round over issues.....
Just have to find a happy medium I suppose!!


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

I understand where you're coming from, and I have found over the years that in those instances it is better to provide links to university studies that clarify the subject, and let the reader figure things out. Everyone wants to save face, sometimes they are wrong, sometimes they are right. I do NOT however provide links to individual web pages, because those are opinions-sometimes people forget that little fact.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 11, 2009)




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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Everyone wants to save face...


You nailed it...IMHO, that's about 95% of the problem, right there.

As for me....if I'm patently wrong, I'm wrong, and I want someone to set me straight in front of the whole wide world, simply because I'd rather be made to look silly than to run the risk of being even partly to blame for someone doing something to kill or compromise an animal.

I think we'd all do well to allow our need to save face or look cool or smart or whatever to be overridden by our collective interest in the welfare of goats, where this particular forum is concerned.


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## kimmyh (Sep 11, 2009)

I guess that is were we are different, I truly want someone to step up and let me know if I am wrong, but not from their personal point of view, with facts, from a documented source that I can take back to my vet and say, "Hey, what do you think about this?" I can't begin to number the wrong information that I have received on the Internet, but it is MY responsibility to take that information graciously, and have it checked out before I implement a change in my feeding program, or treatment protocols.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 11, 2009)

Perhaps I should mention that I don't even consider it a _correction_, per se, unless it's a correction by facts that I can look up and double check for myself.  If someone "corrects" me by posting -- as fact -- something that turns out to be with their opinion, I'm usually not shy about pointing that out.


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## adoptedbyachicken (Sep 11, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> abac said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are very few facts in which a person can be wrong about _*in the total care of livestock*_ such as the topic here.  Each person has their own way of doing things, and the TOTAL management of a critter has to work together.  That point is drilled home on this very thread regarding grain and forage with concerns over urinary calculi.  What works for one will not always work for another of the same species, or even on the same farm if the critter is the bully type that robs feed from another, or picky type that eats only what it wants, not the total diet offered.  Also the other aspects of management play a role in what is required in the diet, such as total calories, if I have goats out in a Canadian Winter you bet I'm feeding them different than one of you in Florida.  That doesn't make my way wrong any more than it make your way wrong.

And that's what we keep having to clean out of here.  Someone posting as if FACT that someone else's way of doing total management is WRONG when in fact it's working fine for them.  Debating minor points on a total management program changes everything in that program, everything is interlinked.  That makes it easy to come up with some study to 'prove' your way of doing things as 'right'.  Anyone around for any time in livestock management also knows that the next study out will disprove many before it and styles will change back and forth.

I stand by what I said, neither your way or hers is totally right or wrong.  It's whats is working in your or her situation, or not working as the case my be.  

What will not be tolerated here is the constant picking apart of each other and every little thing said.

If you have any further comments or suggestions to moderation take it to PM rather than the open forum as per the rules.


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