# Buck gone, does sick post 12 - was keep him alive



## Bunny-kids (May 12, 2012)

I don't wanna tell y'all how bad it's been around here -- been really sick for over a week with a tooth infection. Half a step from going to the ER all week, but I think I finally got it under control. In the meantime, various livestock problems. Always happens that way, no?

But today I finally felt a little better. Went out to find my buck down, half in and half out of the trough. He has a couple of marks on one side, red skin and hair rubbed off, but not exactly a puncture. I don't know if the wether hit him hard???   (edited to add: These marks are both along the shoulder bone, just above lowest point of chest - I don't see any pooling of blood or other injuries -- he might even have fallen and gotten these???)

The wether is normally a VERY docile fellow. They are both horned. They get along fine, always have. raised together since babies (they are just over 2yo now I think). No evidence of any other animal getting in there. The wether is a bit skittish, but affectionate. He avoids the downed buck. 

Buck can't get up. He took a little water I dribbled in his mouth, can't raise his head. I don't see any problems with his breathing or anything else, but he's not moving his legs much. 

I wonder too if he might have had some congenital heart problem, and it's something like that? He doesn't seem hurt that badly. He's been a little less vocal the last few days (I think, but I've been so sick maybe I was outside at the wrong times). Yesterday he ran up to eat, just like normal. Eyelids show no sign of anemia. 

Not much I can do for him, I don't think. Honestly, I had planned to breed him one more year, then try to sell him. If not ... I guess I'd find out what 3 yo buck tastes like (or my dog would). On the one hand, I don't want to take him out if he has a chance, but on the other hand, I don't want him to suffer. He doesn't SEEM to be suffering, but it's a bit chillier than normal, the ground is moist, and I'm sure he's very stressed by his condition. All I can possibly do is clean him up, maybe wrap him, prop him up. But I don't think he can hold his head up. It's slightly pulled back over his back as he's lying on his side on the ground. 

My brain is still in this infection fog, and I'm not thinking clearly. Just wanted to know if anyone can give me any "hey, stop, don't do that!" advice because otherwise, here pretty soon, I think I'm going to put him down. Trying to be practical, and a good steward, and kind, and give him a chance if he has one -- all at once. Thanks, all.

EDIT one more bit of info ... when he tries to "baaa" .... no sound comes out. He's only tried a couple of times. I guess that's why I feel sad for him and ready to put him down. Don't know that that means anything. He IS breathing fairly ok though. The pace and depth of his breathing varies a bit, but it's not bubbly or gasping or anything like that. Thanks everyone.

And he eats grass hay, free choice loose minerals, and what little browse grows back (they keep it eaten - but he has lots of trees). I did get some new hay a week ago and gave him a taste of it a couple of days ago. No one else seems to have trouble from it. It's fewer seed heads, mostly stems, and still green in places, but dry, and smells fine. Variety of weeds. From a new seller, probably the only time I'll buy from him. My regular hay guy is hopefully cutting any day.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 12, 2012)

It sounds like you are dealing with a lot and at this point it probably will take a great deal to get him to recover, if he can recover. I don't think there is going to be a magic shot or medicine to get him better at this point. Another words, I think putting him down is a reasonable option at this point. 

If he was mine I would load him up with Penn G Shots, and injectable thiamin(B complex), every 6 hours and see what happens in 12 to 24 hours. If he showed any signs of improvement by the morning I would also drench him with fluids and consider IV therapy or lactating rings given Sub-Q. 

good luck on your decision. 

and so sorry about your tooth problem and know this.


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## Bunny-kids (May 12, 2012)

Thanks so much. 

I am dealing with just about more than I can handle, and in fact my two does are in danger too (not the same cause) and I'm putting a lot of attention to them. Along with a wonderful gander -- who has a bloodlust for ducklings all of a sudden, and a dog with an unexplained abscess and probably several other things I'm forgetting. At least I am up and around today. A friend joked I looked like something out of the Twilight Zone series, and I did ... my face was so swollen I didn't recognize myself, and it was hard to do much of anything, not to mention I literally didn't sleep for 5 days and 4 nights. 

It's getting better though. Finally!!! Never was I so thankful to be in "a little bit" of pain, LOL. 

What you suggest isn't unreasonable though. I can do that for him. He seems like he wants to fight. I dont' know if his rumen will be ok, and I'm not sure he can swallow, but I'll get some PenG in him. I gotta see if I have the injectable B. I have liquid ...  (Edit: I know the PenG is to inject, not oral ... when I read it again, I see how it sounds ... I'll give him at least that much of a chance though ... )

Might as well give him a chance.  I can always decide to put him down later. It really isn't my first choice. 

If he gets better, maybe the little booger will show some more respect. 

Thanks. I really needed someone thinking along with me, cuz it's not my strong suite right now with all this going on. I appreciate it.


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## Bunny-kids (May 12, 2012)

Never mind ... the injectible for the dog is B12 only ... Thiamine is B1 ... I have no brain today. 
.................................................................................

One more question? 

I do have injectable B, wasn't thinking. It's for my dog. 

How much would you give for a buck? I'm guessing it's the Thiamine you meant to give at a certain amount? 

thanks so much!


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## Bunny-kids (May 12, 2012)

And once more ...

That was encouraging. Got the PenG in him, I had to go with oral b-complex, gave him 2x human dose which is already a mega-high amount. He actually sucked it down and swallowed. Gave him a tube of molasses, which he actively swallowed, and a few tubes of water. 

Got him wrapped back in his blankets, a friend is fixing him a straw bed. Thank goodness, I am too weak to move him myself right now. It's not supposed to rain tonight. 

I need to rest, and will have to med-up the does soon, but I'll see if I can get something else in him, and some more water and maybe Probios. 

He had an audible "baaaa" now. 

Maybe he will pull through. Hate to put him down if I don't have to. Can't believe I actually feel concerned for him, since this was the buck that pretty much wanted to kill me a few months back. But hey, they are all my animals, and I want to take care of them best I can. 

Thanks for the suggestion.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 12, 2012)

Good luck.  You can't overdose on Vitamin B's, because it is water soluble, so I wouldn't worry about giving too much.  I would go out every 3 or 4 hours and  drench him with water and some sort of sugar energy. 

You can use
Molasses
corn oil
corn syrup
nutridrench
propylene glycol
creamed corn
plus water

and combine them in anyway. plus probiotics 

in the morning I would try to pull him to his feet, if at all possible.


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## Bunny-kids (May 12, 2012)

Thanks,

I don't think I can go quite that often, still risking myself if i get too worn out with the infection I'm fighting. 

But good thing is, he's been pulled up onto his chest, and he actually tried to eat a bite of hay. I think he should be able to get fluids for himself. I'll give him more water and molasses, I may have cream corn too. 

Awesome, thanks!


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## Bunny-kids (May 12, 2012)

Last time I went out to him, he was eating hay. Slowly, but it seems like he's really eating it. I haven't seen him drink, but a bowl of water is within reach. He has good control of his head, and remains lying on his chest, not lolling to either side. 

I gave him a bowl of goat pellets (maybe 3 cups) leftover from one of the does, and he ate it all. Took him a little while. I don't normally give the boys pellets, but I figured whatever may help. 

Sooooo ..... he looks like he might actually be able to recover. I'm certainly hoping so. 

I've never had experience with a downed animal that turned out like that? Only one before I had go down just simply died within hours. 


So I'd really, REALLY like any input at all. Any idea what could possibly cause something like this? I mean, collapse in the trough, and when I pulled him out, he lay on the ground, pedaled his feet a time or two, pulled his head over his back, and basically looked like he was about to die, with no voice. I fully expected to come out and find him dead when I checked on him. He was actually getting covered with flies, and they were on his eye, which didn't seen to be blinking often enough. I really was ready to put a bullet in his head. I almost did. 

(If he survives, you saved him 20Kids ... I really wasn't sure what it could be, and he really DID look like he needed WAY more help than I could give him, even if it was possible to save him with any amount of help)

Then a matter of hours later, with nothing more than PenG, oral Vit B complex, and a little molasses and water -- he's on his stomach, holding up his head, eating hay and pellets??? He's got his voice back too. 

My friend that helped me pull him up says I've starved him to death, but I can NOT see that. I keep him and the wether in a pen and take hay to them - a 55 gal drum I add hay to twice a day normally (I'll be honest, I've been so sick this week, once or twice they only got fed once a day this week). He's MUCH pushier than the wether, and the wether is taller, but the wether has great muscle tone, his coat is almost perfect, and he looks and feels great. The buck has very poor muscle tone. But I just can NOT see the wether taking all the food and starving the buck. And the buck is the one always pulling the hay from me and the first to eat. So I really, REALLY do not think I've starved him, and even if I did, I don't think going down/recovery would progress like that. 

I'm just really confused as to what it could possibly be?

Two of my does are anemic, and I've been worming them with Valbazen and Cydectin. Because of the tapeworms, I've pretty much decided to give them all a round of Valbazen (that's what took care of the tapes) and the boys were due to start today. Neither of the boys are anemic, and don't share pasture with the girls. 

The small raw marks could have been from falling, I guess. 

I just can't make sense of it at ALL. Any ideas at all would be very appreciated.


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## Roll farms (May 13, 2012)

The eye thing, paralysis, etc. sounds like it could have been listeriosis....or it could have been goat polio (they look real similar).  The B treats polio, pen g treats listeriosis.


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## Bunny-kids (May 13, 2012)

Thanks Roll. 

ESPECIALLY if it can affect any of the others, I'd like to know. 

He was better when I left him the last time last night. Sometime after that he ended up back on his side. This morning, pushed him back onto his chest and he ate pellets and hay, drank water on his own. Couldn't be gotten to his feet. 

He really seemed to be doing better most of the day. I gave him more pen-g and b complex. 

This evening he was on his side, legs out and stiff, and struggling to breathe. Breath usually produces a clicking sound. His chest feels odd - can't really describe it. It's hard. I can really feel his ribs, and his thigh muscle seems more wasted. Anyway, got him back on his chest and propped him up, wrapped in blankets. He can't support his head properly now. 

I probably SHOULD have put him down tonight, but after watching him come back yesterday when I thought surely he was gone, I figured I'd give him a chance. He can still swallow, and sucks at the syringe when I offer him anything. 

Going to have to read up on goat polio and listerosis. 

I have a doe whose tail pulled to one side when she was pregnant (I'm thinking around 4 months 1 week) and it's still like that. She's not showing any other one-sided symptoms though. 

Thanks very much.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 14, 2012)

Did he make it through the night? or did you put him down? 

A couple things that I am thinking. 

Because you are saying he seems like he has poor muscle tone and had been loosing weight, I would consider a parasite problem, but just a guess on my part. 

Again this is just a guess on my part, but if I gave him grain and he wasn't able to get up, I would have added a teaspoon or two of baking soda to the grain, or drenched him with some baking soda and mollasses to help settle his stomach. His rumen may be having a hard time handling the grain, because number 1, he isn't used to grain and number 2 he isn't able to walk around. 

If he is still alive this morning and you are still working with him. I would give him baking soda, in a drench, probably 2 or 3 teaspoons a couple times today. 

If he didn't make it, I am sorry, you certainly don't have anything to feel bad about, You tried your best.  

Sorry I haven't been checking back on a regular basis, I have a personal thing going on at my home and it has been distracting me.  I sure hope you start feeling better soon.


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## Bunny-kids (May 14, 2012)

No, he's gone during the night. I appreciate the help though. 

I never gave him grain, but pelleted goat chow. I was concerned about the rumen. I never could get him on his feet, but tried to keep him on his chest. (he did fall a couple of times.)

He showed no signs of anemia - FAMACHA was good on him. Last year EVERYTHINGwas drylot (drought) and he and the wether pretty much keep their pen chewed/stomped down. He could have had tapes since one of my does did but the vet agreed that wouldn't cause collapse in the feed trough. It really should have been something serious and/or sudden? He'd lost condition but only over the past few days. And he almost never went out of rut - he's been acting "Bucky" again for a month or so. 

Sigh... I dunno. 

I may have to eat the wether now (he's usually my favorite goat)   since I'll need a new buckling. I still have all three of this year's bucklings. Of course the one I chose for freezer camp has become a sweet little puppydog type. He may have bought himself a spot as my new wether. I can't really make those decisions just now. Gotta figure out how to deal with the buck and I'm not well enough for strenuous work. I feed my dog raw but I'm afraid to use the buck. 

Guess I'm mostly worried because my two breeding does are in such poor shape too. I'm worming them now (and have been) but no improvement. I wonder if what happened to the buck has any clues for them. 

Seems the one doe was calcium deficient from pregnancy. She's been getting calcium, vit B, probios, worming (valbazen & cydectin - cydectin does NOT  look like anything I should be shoving down her throat and she agrees), and red cell. She will nibble a few pellets, browse a bit, but mostly wants cut leaves. She's scary-thin, whited-out eyelids, and moves slowly. She's had diarrhea a lot. She actually seems that her bowed legs MAY be a tiny bit better, and she's a bit more active than she was. She does fight me on the meds. I keep her buckling off her & don't milk - the doeling gets a little milk. 

The other doe is also scary-thin and whited out. She's getting the same treatment (except only valbazen). She has an odd look in her eyes, seems like she's dreamy.  She has been lying down a LOT since last Tuesday or so, though she can and does walk around. She eats pellets and hay. Her poop was almost liquid, then got some shape, and yesterday was berries again. Today I watched her stand and wait a long time before she could finally pee ... It was only a few drops but shestood a long time and finally did pee. She's still wanting to care for her bucklings but I put them in an adjacent yard during the day to give her a break. 

I'm about ready to treat them ALL for EVERYTHING. The wether seems fine as does the other doe I've never gotten to settle. But my breeders are a mess. At least the doeling is a healthy beautiful little butterball. Her brother is limping slightly now I see. Hopefully just a thorn. 

At least I am slightly improved, but I'm still not all here mentally and cam only work with the animals an hour or so. And at least I made a bit of money and can afford some meds for them. I was offered a chance at a job in town too, if I can show up tomorrow. Feel like I'm on a rollercoaster lol. 

Thanks all.


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## Bunny-kids (May 14, 2012)

Oh and 20Kids, I appreciate your help. No need to apologize for having stuff as well. Normally I can barely get online too. Hope you had a nice Mother's Day.


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## ksalvagno (May 14, 2012)

I would start with a good fecal being done. And I mean send it in to your state lab or a lab that does a thorough fecal. The quick fecal float that is done at the vet doesn't show everything. Ohio's state lab does a great job with fecal tests and you get back numbers of every parasite that they find. And they find parasites that the local vet never finds.


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## Bunny-kids (May 14, 2012)

Thanks, Ksalvagno. I didn't know about that. 

Yes, I recently had a fecal done at the vets. It was pretty much a waste of money. I'm near TAMU, I wonder if they do it. I'll look into that. 

This past week I was almost ready to give up keeping animals ... glad my muscovies at least are so self-sufficent, and the chickens and rabbits are (mostly) doing great. 

Never did figure out why one litter of rabbit kits was dying one by one, but it seems to have stopped. Now I have some in a grow-out pen that are too old, and starting to pull fur from one another. Let me restate -- all but one has fur pulled. I suspect the untouched one is shredding the others. They are due for slaughter anyway, and I would have done it Saturday if not for having to deal with sick goats. 

Thanks so much. I need to get a handle on what's going on. And I need a new buckling, but I really have to get this sorted out first.

And your avatar reminds me ... I have a llama out there too. She seems perfectly fine, but she's very skittish and won't let me handle her other than hand feeding. I worry what SHE may be picking up along with them that isn't apparent, and I don't want her going down to be my first sign, since I probably can't care for her if she does. She's a stinker, but I would NOT want to lose her.


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## ksalvagno (May 14, 2012)

Yes, the llama will probably need to be wormed too. Llamas and alpacas tend not to show anything until they are about dead, unfortunately.


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