# Grrrrr at FedEX.....and maybe Jeffers livestock.



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

So, I ordered two vials of Case-Bac and two vials of Covexin 8 from Jeffers.  I also ordered a box of needles, a box of syringes, and a few other things I needed basically just to get the order to $50 and avoid that $6 handling fee.

Anyway, since I was having biologicals shipped, I had to choose 2nd day air and ordered the soft-sided cooler with an extra ice pack..  

When the stuff shipped, I noticed there were two tracking numbers..  The box of syringes and whatnot went out as regular ol' home delivery, while the biologicals went 2nd day air...ok, whatever.

So, this morning, a box shows up...it's the needles and syringes.

A few hours later, the biologicals show up.

Different truck, different drivers.

Yeah, that's right...the regular ol' ground delivery got here before the other package I paid $11 extra to have rushed..  Not only that, but the FedEx guy sat the box down IN THE SUN and didn't even bother to ring the doorbell..  Luckly, my wife heard him driving away and went out to get the box that's labelled RUSH -- ICED BIOLOGICALS..

Here's the kicker......both vials of Case-Bac are warm.  The Covexin, she says, is just baaaaaarely cool, but the ice packs are totally melted and the Case-Bac is like room temp..

Super.


----------



## ksalvagno (Sep 4, 2009)

I use PBS Livestock. They are excellent about shipping stuff and I have always gotten my vaccines cold. www.pbsanimalhealth.com

I would call Jeffers and see if they will replace your vaccines.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

I did call, and she said "Were they room temperature, or hot?"  I said they were room temp...my wife said the Covexin was actually a tiny bit cool, but not cold, so I know they couldn't have been much more than room temp.

The lady at Jeffers said that would be fine..  I asked how she knew that, and she said that's what their 'specialist' has stated.  Said the only time there's a problem is when they're obviously warm or even hot..

I'm not terribly confident in their specialist..  Gonna call the vet here in just a sec..  I've needed to talk to them about getting Epi, Dexamethasone, and maybe some kind of injectable NSAID for a while anyway.  What better time than now, right?


----------



## broke down ranch (Sep 4, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I did call, and she said "Were they room temperature, or hot?"  I said they were room temp...my wife said the Covexin was actually a tiny bit cool, but not cold, so I know they couldn't have been much more than room temp.
> 
> The lady at Jeffers said that would be fine..  I asked how she knew that, and she said that's what their 'specialist' has stated.  Said the only time there's a problem is when they're obviously warm or even hot..
> 
> I'm not terribly confident in their specialist..  Gonna call the vet here in just a sec..  I've needed to talk to them about getting Epi, Dexamethasone, and maybe some kind of injectable NSAID for a while anyway.  What better time than now, right?


You know, if it were me I would still demand a refund because  what if it ISN'T fine and you vaccinate with this stuff and at the least it doesn't actually innoculate them? Or worse, perhaps it kills your goat?

Naw, I would call her, tell her they promise customer satisfaction and by GOLLY you are NOT satisfied.... 


ETA: if the vial is room temp then that would mean it is OBVIOUSLY warm as opposed to be cool, correct??


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> You know, if it were me I would still demand a refund because  what if it ISN'T fine and you vaccinate with this stuff and at the least it doesn't actually innoculate them? Or worse, perhaps it kills your goat?
> 
> Naw, I would call her, tell her they promise customer satisfaction and by GOLLY you are NOT satisfied....


Yeah, I'm thinking about it..  Thing is, their return/refund policy on biologicals is weird.  One place it basically says "no way, no how," but I remember reading elsewhere -- somewhere -- on their site that said they couldn't do a refund/return unless you went at least 2nd day air and ordered the cooler and an extra ice pack..

Need to find that..

I also found on their website where it says that if you get your biologicals 2nd day air and your ice packs have totally melted, it's OK because they've "already done their job" or something like that..

Something tells me they'd have been up s_creek without a paddle long ago if 2nd day air and room-temp vaccines were deadly..  They'd either not ship them at all, or they'd require next day delivery in a big heavily-iced cooler..

And...along those same lines...I would think vaccine makers would likewise have been up that same creek years ago if vaccines couldn't get to room temp occasionally without killing animals.  I'm sure it happens ALL THE TIME in regular shipments to feed stores, etc..

Still need to call the vet, though..  If the vet says it's OK, I won't worry about it..  If the vet says it's NOT ok, I'm gonna be PO'd...and I'll probably ask the vet to get me some Case-Bac.


----------



## ksalvagno (Sep 4, 2009)

I realize this is the principal of the thing but what does Jeffers charge for case-bac? I just looked in PBS in they charge $5.55 for a 10 dose. The Covexin 8 is $6.27 for a 50 ml bottle.

Best to check with the vet and go from there.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

Yeah, it's about the same at Jeffers..  The Covexin is fine...no warmer, I don't think, than it would get on the way home from a farm store if I just kinda tossed it in the seat and took off.

So, that's ok...which basically means we're talking about $11 worth of Case-Bac.  Yeah, it would be annoying if it went bad and I couldn't get a refund, but...not like Earth-shattering bad.

In fact, I think I'd just take it as an $11 lesson on what _not_ to do next time.

Lessons don't usually come that cheap.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

Dammit...just talked to one of the vet techs whom I know to be very knowledgable and really good at what she does..  She said she'd skip the Case-Bac if it reached room temp.  Said their policy is that if something is out of the cooler for more than 20mins, it goes in the trash.

I sorta got the impression that she was advising based on their office policy, and their policy seems pretty doggone strict..  It's probably strict because they can manage it strictly, whereas the vet's office isn't really the real world as most animal owners would recognize it..

Real world, as in, "Hey, will you hand me the butter?  It's right there next to the tetanus antitoxin, behind the Penicillin."  That's real world, to me..

Sooooo..who's right?  I dunno.  I'm gonna see what it would cost to order the Case-Bac directly through them.  If they want more than $10/vial for it, I may use what I've got...which I'm thinking is probably perfectly fine.  The Covexin, like I said, I'm even more OK with using, because it was still cool.

Maybe I can get FedEx to pay for it, since I'm almost positive a signature was required on the biological...and they didn't get one.  

Afterall, they have literally no way of knowing how long it sat on the porch.  

>insert evil grin emoticon here<


----------



## kimmyh (Sep 4, 2009)

I have had the same experience, and have now decided to order my Covexin 8 directly from my vet, who gets it directly from the mfg. Every time vaccine changes hands, mfg, to retailer, to farm, there is a chance it has gotten warm, and although Jeffers and other claim the vaccine is fine, after having 2 breakthroughs on vaccine, I buy  directly from my vet, it costs a little more, but I figure that is cheap, if the other stuff isn't working.


----------



## ksalvagno (Sep 4, 2009)

Depends on the vet. My alpaca vet only charges me what she is charged. My dog and cat vet who is also my backup alpaca vet and will be my goat vet does charge a little extra. But, none of the vets give me a hard time with getting any meds that I need so I can't complain. 

I order my vaccines and stuff from PBS but they are in Ohio and I get my stuff the next day. Also helps that I'm home all day and see it coming. There has never been a signature required though.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> I have had the same experience, and have now decided to order my Covexin 8 directly from my vet, who gets it directly from the mfg. Every time vaccine changes hands, mfg, to retailer, to farm, there is a chance it has gotten warm, and although Jeffers and other claim the vaccine is fine, after having 2 breakthroughs on vaccine, I buy  directly from my vet, it costs a little more, but I figure that is cheap, if the other stuff isn't working.


Well, there ya have it.

I just called Jeffers again and asked about the package signature thing right off the bat..  The customer service rep said that even though their website says biologicals will require a signature unless the customer notes otherwise, "the carrier" (aka FED-FRICKEN-EX) has some "discretion" as to whether or not to actually require a signature..

Which means...who knows, I dunno what that means.  I guess it means it all depends on the driver...if he cares, he'll knock.  If he doesn't, he won't, and he'll just leave it in the sun to rot.

Awesome, huh?!?

Not that it stayed in the sun for long, but hey...it _could have_.



I also told her how odd it was that they delivered the dry-goods box a full 2 hours before the biologicals, and she said..."Hmmmm..  Oh, wait.  I see here that the shipping was adjusted from $10.95 to $0 because you're in a two day range anyway."

Which means it got sent ground instead of air...which makes it even more NOT MY FAULT.  

So, then I explained to her that I was advised by a Veterinarian *NOT* to use luke-warm vaccine, and noted that I'd given my best effort toward making sure this didn't happen by ordering the cooler, the extra ice pack, and specifying 2-day shipment..  

As such, she agreed to send a packing slip for return and said they'd credit my account for ALL the vaccines...the two Covexins and the two Case-Bacs. 



Hey...at least now I'll have a jeffer's soft sided cooler and two ice-packs for the ride home when I go pick these vaccines up FROM MY VET'S OFFICE.



Sooooo...I guess Jeffers is still pretty OK in my book.  Things just happen sometimes, and they made it right...even though they state pretty plainly that they have a no refund/no return policy on biologicals, which basically means I knew it was a crapshoot the moment I hit 'Submit' when placing the order.

So...yay Jeffers.


----------



## broke down ranch (Sep 4, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> kimmyh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Um, does their website SAY you have to "note otherwise" about the signature thing? 

I dunno......glad you got it all worked out and are happy again with Jeffers. Myself, I would probably still be on a tangent....principal of the thing and all.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

broke down ranch said:
			
		

> Um, does their website SAY you have to "note otherwise" about the signature thing?


Yep. 



			
				bdr said:
			
		

> I dunno......glad you got it all worked out and are happy again with Jeffers. Myself, I would probably still be on a tangent....principal of the thing and all.


Yeah...I've come to the realization that I've just gotta pick my battles, though.  If I don't, the way my life goes, I won't have much time for anything but wailing and gnashing of teeth..

:/


----------



## broke down ranch (Sep 4, 2009)

See, to me that says there IS a signature required unless you say "hey, I don't want to sign for it" not the other way around.

But either way - all's well that end's well I reckon...


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

That's certainly the way it reads..  I suspect it's also why I got a weird explanation that boiled down to:

A signature IS required unless you specify otherwise, but the carriers don't actually require a signature unless they happen to feel like it.  So if you want even the slightest chance of a signature being required so that you'll know exactly when your package arrives, you should NOT specify to NOT require a signature, but understand that even if you DO NOT specify NOT to require a signature, a signature still may NOT be required and your stuff may be left to rot in the sun, be eaten by your dog, be stolen by mischeivous yard gnomes, or be carried away and buried by rabid badgers.

That's what I got from it, anyway.


----------



## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

Yep, Jeffers is a decent company. 
I have been ordering from them for years and have been happy. They send my orders out fast.
I have been fortunate that all vaccines have been cold,...but I do wonder each time. You never know what could happen...
One thing they have changed is the shipping policy on their pet items. I order some pet items for livestock usually. For the free shipping, your order has to add up to $50 in livestock items,...which can not include pet items. So if you have a $10.00 pet item and $40.00 on livestock, you still have to pay the handling fee. In the past they would wave that for me because most items were livestock, but now they won't. That stinks, because they don't account that I am using it for livestock,...but that's okay, I'll still order from them.


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 4, 2009)

I tried to sneak something like that in recently to get over the $50 threshold...can't remember what, maybe 25ga needles or something from the Pet site..

Anyway, a weird extra shipping charge showed up and, if I'm not mistaken, the $6 handling fee was still there.  Took me a minute, but I figured it out and zero'd the pet-site stuff.

It was 25ga needles, I think, because I managed -- somehow -- to find 3ml syringes with 25ga x 5/8" needles on the livestock side..  

I like those for IM'ing kids in the neck...as much as a person can like IM'ing a kid in the neck, that is.


----------



## trestlecreek (Sep 4, 2009)

Hmmm, now I have ordered those,...and they let me do it without penalty! Must have gotten lucky. Yep, those are nice for the IM in the neck with the more fluid type meds/vaccs. They are fabulous for a rabbit injection.
I ordered some rabbit stuff this last order, which most of those things I need are labeled for cats/dogs.
I thought buying for a goat was bad,...no labels for rabbits either! LOL


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 4, 2009)

CM...another thing that got eaten in the 'reply that wouldn't send'...I suggested that if you order vaccines via mail, order all you need for the whole year in the winter time, you save $ on ice packs and it's less worry about the temps.
Just a thought...


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 8, 2009)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> CM...another thing that got eaten in the 'reply that wouldn't send'...I suggested that if you order vaccines via mail, order all you need for the whole year in the winter time, you save $ on ice packs and it's less worry about the temps.
> Just a thought...


Where's the fun in that?  ...far too easy...   

(  )


----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2009)

Update..

Got the slip from Jeffers a while ago, but haven't returned the vaccines yet.  Just today, the vet quoted me an OUTRAGEOUS price to get it through them, which included *$60* shipping.  

Not the vets' fault...I know everybody up there by name, and that price was basically their cost through the distributor.

So, we got to talking..  It was a different vet tech this time, and she noted that some vaccines absolutely had to stay refrigerated or they could be dangerous, whereas others...meh...not so much.  She said "If it's killed, dead's dead.  Can't get any deader than dead."

I asked her to elaborate, and she said that if a vaccine is made from a killed bacterin or virus, there's nothing to really "go bad."  She said they had some "modified live" vaccines that must arrive ice-cold with tons of ice packs and so forth, whereas some other killed vaccines just come in a styrofoam cooler with no ice packs or other attempts at refrigeration..  With the latter, they're just instructed to refrigerate them on arrival with the understanding that so long as they're not obviously warm or hot, they're fine..

She wasn't terribly familiar with Case-Bac, but I told her it was killed..  I also told her how I found Colorado's FAQ page (after going rounds with Jeffers, of course) in which they say the same thing as Jeffers...melted ice packs are OK, and unless the stuff was in transit longer than five days or seems "not cool or unusually warm" on arrival, it's fine.

I asked my wife again today how the vials felt....  She said they were maybe just a little cooler than her hand, but not as cool as the Covexin..  

Then she proceeded to note that she cold hands, further complicating things...  

Anyway...long story longer...I don't have $100+ to send the vet for Case-Bac at the moment, and I've kinda figured all along that it was probably OK to use anyway..  With what the tech said, plus what Colorado's FAQ says, plus what a few folks here told me, plus the fact that hundreds of people per day use vaccines from Jeffers that came equipped with melted ice packs....

Screw it.

I'm just gonna use it.


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 28, 2009)




----------



## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2009)

So, I just found this interesting chart about what happens when vaccines get warm.







According to the illustrious wikipedia ( :/ ) the pertussis component of DTP vaccines is a killed whole-cell Bordatella pertussis.  Kinda like Case-Bac is a killed whole-cell Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis.  And 22C is about 72F...  

So, by the looks of things, it would appear that a killed whole-cell bacterin vaccine stored at room temp is near 100% effective for about a month..  

Not that I'd wanna try that, necessarily, but...ya know.  I really don't think I've got much to worry about here, put it that way.

Well...nothing more than the usual worries over off-label usage, anaphylactic shock, or any of the other countless pitfalls..er, I mean challenges that raising goats allows me the opportunity to tackle on a daily basis..


----------

