# HELP! Will these goats settle in?



## TalksToDogs (Aug 6, 2016)

I finally got my first two goats, I got one 9 week old female first. Obviously she was a little distressed to be alone, and she loved people, so she bonded really strongly to me. She was dam raised and always in a herd before I got her. The next day I picked up my OTHER goat, and only had her an hour and a half for the ride home and penned them near each other. This goat was also dam raised and had always been in a herd. 

I figured I could leave them on their own out there, and the little one might get a bit anxious, but she'd be OK  in a little bit with the other goat around, especially since they were both so quiet while I was wandering around feeding the other animals. 

However, the SECOND I left them, they BOTH started flipping out. They have been pacing and baaahing and basically did a complete 180 from being calm and serene. They don't appear to be taking comfort in each other's presence at all, (if not feeding off of each other's separation anxiety, possibly) and they won't even just stop and graze, like most ruminants that eat all day would.... and their yard is FULL of brush. (Part of the reason I got them.)

So, the question is.... WHEN IS THIS GOING TO STOP?! I've been inside for a good hour, going on two, and it's only slightly let up, only to start again, especially if they see or hear any people around. We live in, and are zoned rural, so there are barking dogs and crowing roosters... but I can see where my neighbors might get a little sick of insane bleating all day if this keeps up. At least the roosters and dogs STOP. LOL. 

I read so many books, websites and magazines about goat stuff.... NONE OF THEM... NONE covered any separation anxiety issues like this, other than weaning young ones.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 6, 2016)

First thing I would do is
Put them in the same pen together


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## Southern by choice (Aug 6, 2016)

Welcome to BYH! 

I agree with One Fine.
I also would be careful to not go in and out over and over but instead peak in on them without you noticing. This will cause them to bond together.
This could be short lived or take several days. They are babies that just got taken from their herd it is pretty traumatic. It is stressful and scary for them.

Were then "instantly" weaned when you picked them up? If so expect the crying for a good bit! 

There is something very important you must do!
FECALS! Kids (all goats really) get what is called a stress bloom. The bloom is parasites and or cocci. A cocci bloom or a parasite bloom can cause a very sick goat and may die. These are intestinal ... so you won't see it.

In a few days 4-7... in your case I would do 4 days take a fecal to your vet and have them run fecals on both goats.
You collect their poop berries, put it in a baggie and take it to the vet. ASK them to check for parasite eggs and cocci eggs.

Waiting to see something in the poop or diarrhea will mean your goat is already VERY sick.  

Many of kids have died this year from these issues- if you peruse the threads you will see the tragic loss for so many.

Also you want to get a thermometer (digital) with covers and vaseline immediately. Shipping fever can also happen. Many goats don't end up with this but if it happens you must catch it fast. Listen for any respiratory changes. Take temperature rectally.
On baby goats if the temp goes over 103 be concerned and call your vet. They will need to be treated immediately.


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## chiques chicks (Aug 6, 2016)

The above two posts pretty much cover it. They are both very knowledgeable, experienced people.

In a month you will wonder how you lived so long without goats.

And welcome!


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 6, 2016)

I put them together, because they were driving me nuts, hoping that would help. They are somewhat bonding.. the little one is following the older one, but the older one is still butting her around when she gets too close or eats too close. They are stressed but both are eating and drinking and going to the bathroom regularly, and their poos are normal. 

The little one was weaned a few weeks or so before I got her. 

I have tried to not go out there at all, but the little guy keeps getting out and I've had to go outside and patch some of her escape routes... (and I can tell when she escapes because the other goat goes even more nuts, which is a good sign I guess )when I am out there...SILENCE.

They are going to be in the barn together tonight, in separate dog crates that are right next to each other, as I don't want them trying to escape all night, or have the big one get to aggressive with her butting. Hopefully that will help!

I will do the fecals... it would coincide nicely with


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 6, 2016)

THANKS.

I've wanted my own goats forever, this wouldn't even be an issue for me, but the neighbors are somewhat close to our house, and I don't want to drive them nuts, and have to sell them just as I got them. A bit of noise is fine... but hours on end? Sheesh...


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## Southern by choice (Aug 6, 2016)

Overhandling will cause more stress right now and unless the one doe is trying to kill the other I do not advise locking them separately in a crate. Livestock is different and this is prolonging them adjusting.

Of course if you do not have a secure area and they can escape then the crate it is!

We picked up an 8 month old nigerian buck a few years ago, he was not handled at all...  we had him in a 6 ft quarantine pen... he was so freaked out we did leave a covered crate in with him and did have to lock him in overnight. It was nuts!

As far as noise , maybe you could let the neighbors know... they are babies it should be expected... it is more of a courtesy so they also know everything is alright. 

What breed are they?


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 6, 2016)

They are both Nigerian Dwarf, one (the older one) is actually papered, however the previous owner said she didn't think she could breed because her hips were too narrow, and I bought her as a companion. The other had papered parents, but I could really care less about paperwork in the end. I didn't get them to show. (Even if I had the time to do so!)

I ended up settling them in the crate (it's a HUGE crate, suitable for a really big dog) together. The little one bleated a bit, but was otherwise quickly silent, the older one was quiet and focused on eating hay. 

The older one (1.5yrs)  is dark brown, and the photo is from her sale ad.
The other is the baby.


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## Latestarter (Aug 6, 2016)

Very nice. Thanks for sharing the pics! You're gonna love them in no time at all!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 6, 2016)

Pretty! 
We have dwarfs also. I will warn you... they go into heat every 3 weeks they are also year round breeders. Let's hope they are not heat screamers!
I have several Nigies that scream the whole 3 days they are in heat.  Others quiet.
Now... on one hand that screaming especially in fall can be so bad you just want to breed the doe so they will shut up!  That is how and why my goat Katie got bred last year! I didn't plan on breeding her.  She had quads.

On the other hand I have some Nigies that are so NOT obvious and they were really hard to catch in heat... they WERE the ones we wanted to breed.

Not having a buck around may help minimize the screaming potential.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 6, 2016)

Haha! I have one heat screamer,  and she's 8 and so not being bred.  She's a pet.  But she's so loud when she's in heat (only in the winter though) and hardly ever makes a peep otherwise.  

I was just looking on Craigslist and saw the older doe pop up...  I thought boy that goat looks familiar.  Oh yeah! Haha


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 6, 2016)

You should go ahead and register the 2nd doe even if you aren't planning to show if you have any intentions of breeding them
If they are eligible to be registered you should go ahead and do it

i think that dark brown doe could be bred
I. Can't see her rump width from the side view but I've never seen a doe of that stature that was to narrow at rump to be able to kid
What is the name of the farm you got her from?


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 15, 2016)

They have improved slightly.... they can now stay in a large (and fortified) outdoor dog kennel when I am not there, and be relaxed and quiet. They can also stand to have me out of their sight for a little while while they "free range" but god forbid I have to run into the house quick, or leave the pasture. Then they freak out, or try to get through the fence. The eldest also wants to go after anyone she sees on the street or next door (in a good way). 

I am happy I can at LEAST have them outside, and not screaming. 

So far the only doe that would go into heat, isn't yet. (NO BUCKS! Well, there are other goats a good mile down the road, not sure if they have any...) 

I would LOVE to breed her, especially since I would love some kids this year, but her former owner, who is also a newb to the goat world felt that her hips were to narrow to pass kids safely, so she is more a companion for the younger one, and I figured I'd just have to wait until next year for kids. I might get a photo of her hind end to get a more expert opinion, but I believe she is probably right. 

I got the goats specifically for milk/meat production, and some light cart pulling work once in awhile. 

I am hoping neither of them are going to scream all day. *sigh*


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 15, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> You should go ahead and register the 2nd doe even if you aren't planning to show if you have any intentions of breeding them
> If they are eligible to be registered you should go ahead and do it
> 
> i think that dark brown doe could be bred
> ...



I will get you the info and a photo tomorrow, from a few possible angles. I'd love a more experienced opinion on wether or not it would be a feasible thing. Her hips do look narrow, but then again, I'm also new to this. The former owner voided her paperwork, (wrote a big "void" on it basically) so I am not sure what to do with that.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

These are the best images I could get of her hind end, especially in comparison to the little one, who has a much broader stance naturally. 

She is from Took a Leap farm according to the paperwork.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

What you are looking at is the rump, the pelvis.
Looking down on her back in the area above the tail.
In the first picture, she looks completely normal in that regard.

So, you are saying she was registered, and they gave you her registration papers, and wrote VOID on them.

If you don't mind my asking, how much did you pay for her?

I'll tell you one thing, she has nice long, well placed teats.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 16, 2016)

Those teats are great!


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## Latestarter (Aug 16, 2016)

I say breed her   She looks like a female goat to me... If those teats are any indication, she ought to have an awesome udder.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 16, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I say breed her   She looks like a female goat to me... If those teats are any indication, she ought to have an awesome udder.



The breeder felt she was too narrow, she voided out the papers.
If the breeder wasn't experienced that may be one thing but if the breeder was knowledgeable you shouldn't disregard what they say.

Until you have to sit on the ground and pull with all you've got or go in and untangle kids, risk losing a beloved doe or pulling out dead ones, or watching a doe suffer from a torn uterus... you just can't imagine it. Not every doe should be bred.

It almost looks like she was bred before. How old is the doe?
Maybe she had issues.  
We have had a few late bloomers that came from large litters and they were small. Those does were placed ONLY with people we could trust to NOT breed them til we could take a look at them. Some had to wait til 2 years.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> The breeder felt she was too narrow, she voided out the papers.
> If the breeder wasn't experienced that may be one thing but if the breeder was knowledgeable you shouldn't disregard what they say.
> 
> Until you have to sit on the ground and pull with all you've got or go in and untangle kids, risk losing a beloved doe or pulling out dead ones, or watching a doe suffer from a torn uterus... you just can't imagine it. Not every doe should be bred.
> ...



Yeah, but you can have tangled kids and complications with any doe.
That isn't the best shot, but that rump doesn't look narrow.

I just have a feeling that there may be something else that they don't want their farm name on.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 16, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> Yeah, but you can have tangled kids and complications with any doe.
> That isn't the best shot, but that rump doesn't look narrow.
> 
> I just have a feeling that there may be something else that they don't want their farm name on.



That is what I am thinking too.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

@TalksToDogs

Measure her rump.
Just like this.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> That is what I am thinking too.


We see two nice long teats.

There might be a third one hiding there somewhere.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

Story:

The young doe I bought for a meat/milk breeder, with the intention of getting a companion doe that was done breeding, that was offered through a friend of a friend. Well the friend of a friend had a perfectly nice companion doe behaviorally, but she was WAY to big for what I was looking for (despite making it clear I wanted nothing taller than slightly above the knee). So that didn't work out.

In a panic, because I only had ONE goat now, I found this doe on a NH specific farm and garden facebook group I had been on for awhile, and the price was right ($150) and she was cheap simply because she was being sold as a "pet". 


Her former owner IS NEW TO GOAT BREEDING. She bought her from "Took A Leap" with the intent to breed, (she did have several other females that looked similar in age, and a few bucks in separate housing, none I saw with kids) however she IS NEW to goat breeding, and SHE felt that the doe was too narrow. I was even NEWER (obviously) so I took her word for it. 

I am guessing she might have voided the paperwork, as an extra disincentive to not breed her?

I am not saying she might not have lied about her being bred, but she really would not have had to lie, since she was selling her as a companion any way. If she told me the goat had had complications, I wouldn't have cared. 

Of course now the idea of kids and milk this year, if the consensus is she's sound, is highly appealing. 

The doe IS only 1.5 years old give or take, and from what I was told. 3/6/15 is the birthdate on the paperwork.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

OK, I will do that when the light is a big better. 
I DID get an accidental picture of her from up above more that MAY help?

The part of her hips that juts out, I can lay my hand on, with the fingers pointing toward the tail, and my palm fits perfectly between the two bones.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 16, 2016)

She may simply have voided the registration  because she sold her for cheap as a pet.  I often see different prices,  or people offer the paperwork for more money. She could just be nervous or someone made a comment and she figured she wouldn't risk it.  I am new to breeding too so I have no advice for you!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 16, 2016)

TalksToDogs said:


> I am not saying she might not have lied about her being bred, but she really would not have had to lie, since she was selling her as a companion any way. If she told me the goat had had complications, I wouldn't have cared.



Oh no, I wasn't suggesting that. I just couldn't remember the back story and wasn't sure if she had been.

Many will not give papers if not charging for papers.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

I didn't mean to suggest she was lying either
I didn't realize either that you didn't buy her from the original breeder so the part about their being another fault not disclosed is probably not an issue either
She looks normal to me

And no joke about her teats being correct 
They are very good


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

I think perhaps it might be because she is so "cow hocked" that it makes her hips look narrower than they really are? Anytime she is just standing, her hocks bow in toward each other, she doesn't have the more open, straight legged stance that I notice in most other goats, including my little one. Perhaps her hips are fine, it's just her legs?


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

I've got 3 doelings the same age as yours
Born March 2015
Here are pics of one I think very similar in stature to yours
She is slender like her mom
Coleus
The other 2 are larger one is a little too fat
But this one is very similar to yours


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

I also showed the pics to my wife
Not only have we been breeding goats for 7 years now but she has a degree in animal science
She said no problem breeding her
I also showed her the pic of her teats and she just said wow
I checked out the breeders website
They have some serious milk producers
I saw a couple of 1300 lb milkers


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## Latestarter (Aug 16, 2016)

I don't own any goats yet, but have looked at a few pictures and she looked "fine to breed" to me   She didn't look too narrow to breed. I'll bet the void of the paperwork was simply because of the price (and reason - companion) she was sold for.


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## TAH (Aug 16, 2016)

@TalksToDogs I had a alpine doe with the narrow hips and hocks like that. We bred her and she delivered great no issues what so ever. Her teats are nice .

Here are pics of her





Here is naomi and she has great legs udder and hips and kids just as well has the doe up above.


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## Ferguson K (Aug 16, 2016)

I think she is gorgeous. She looks like a typical yearling to me.  A little narrower possibly because she's never been bred. That teat placement and size is to die for! 

OFA is right. She really is a nice looking doe, and he would know! So would SBC! 

Her hips don't look narrow to me. Just immature.


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## Ferguson K (Aug 16, 2016)

I think she is gorgeous. She looks like a typical yearling to me.  A little narrower possibly because she's never been bred. That teat placement and size is to die for! 

OFA is right. She really is a nice looking doe, and he would know! So would SBC! 

Her hips don't look narrow to me. Just immature.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

I' don't think I've ever had a Yearlimg with teats like that
I would love to se some pics where you are actually trying to focus on her teats
If you have the papers who is her dam and sire and grand dam and sire?


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 16, 2016)

Post her registered name, I'd love to look her up on the ADGA genetics site. 

She could have some milk in her udder/teats. We have a few that get a small udder without being bred. I'd go give her a squeeze and see if that's why her teats are so large.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Post her registered name, I'd love to look her up on the ADGA genetics site.
> 
> She could have some milk in her udder/teats. We have a few that get a small udder without being bred. I'd go give her a squeeze and see if that's why her teats are so large.


I would love to see her lineage


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 16, 2016)

I know! I was a little surprised when I looked up the farm earlier!


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> I would love to see her lineage


I don't see anything there but nice long teats
They aren't swollen


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 16, 2016)

I know they aren't swollen, but whenever one of our young "dry" goats have teats that large they always have milk. Have you ever experienced that in your kids? We had a 5 month old with an udder and it looks like a few others are starting.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 16, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I know they aren't swollen, but whenever one of our young "dry" goats have teats that large they always have milk. Have you ever experienced that in your kids? We had a 5 month old with an udder and it looks like a few others are starting.


We like to see a young doe develop mammary tissue which to me it seems this doe has an abundance of.
But thankfully we have never had a precocious doe producing milk without kidding
Personally I don't consider that to be a good thing


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

TAH said:


> @TalksToDogs I had a alpine doe with the narrow hips and hocks like that. We bred her and she delivered great no issues what so ever. Her teats are nice .
> 
> Here are pics of her
> 
> ...


 
Aside from your goat not having the knocky hocks, that is the same look she has!


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> View attachment 20771 View attachment 20770 I've got 3 doelings the same age as yours
> Born March 2015
> Here are pics of one I think very similar in stature to yours
> She is slender like her mom
> ...



Oh wow, yeah aside from some of the colouring that could be my goat easy!


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

WOW, well I am VERY glad I came on here, even if it was because I was in a panic! HAHA! 

It is nice to hear that I may have got a Mercedes for the price of a Lemon, though I do feel somewhat bad that the former owner passed her off due to her own inexperience and not because the animal was in actuality, a poor breeder. I'm pretty sure she paid much more than $150 for her....

She seemed fond of the goat too, even though she can be a butthead (wanted to know how she was adjusting a few days after I took her home). I almost (almost) feel bad about the whole thing, but there is not much to do about it now. Even if I wanted to tell her there is nothing wrong with the goat, she might not believe me, and I'm not sending her back. 

I will post the registration info, and better pics of the teat area tomorrow.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 16, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> We like to see a young doe develop mammary tissue which to me it seems this doe has an abundance of.
> But thankfully we have never had a precocious doe producing milk without kidding
> Personally I don't consider that to be a good thing


I don't see anything wrong with it. 
All the does that have had precocious udders and have freshened are super milky does. Some even out milk other goats that are the same age/breed/freshening. I know some folks worry about mastitis but we haven't had any issues.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 16, 2016)

Any idea on what the heck I should do with her AGA paperwork? I mean, it has a huge VOID written on it in black marker. I have a bill of sale from the former owner, so I suppose I can get her under my name (if that is how it works) but do they issue replacement paperwork? If she really is sound, and is as good a potential genetic contributor as it appears that she now might be, I might need that paperwork.


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## babsbag (Aug 17, 2016)

They issue a new replacement paper whenever the goat is sold. I'm not sure what they would do with the VOID. If I sell a goat without papers I simply don't give the new owners the papers. The papers are supposed to be signed by the seller and then you send the papers to ADGA and they issue new ones. Does the bill of sale have her name and registration number on it?


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 17, 2016)

It has her name and ID on it, but that is where the VOID is written. I have a receipt that from the sale though.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 17, 2016)

I have some udder pics. 

Her reg. Name is "Took A Leap Kaliyah" (I consider her new show name to be "Stop Being an A$$hole", but that's just me. )

Sire: Sugar Moon RB Uwanami

His sire: Promised Land Ram-Beau
His Dam: NC Promised Land RC Rain Dance

Dam: Took a Leap Merry Go Round

Her Sire: Sugar Moon Ranjit
Her Dam: Sugar Moon Rita Repeata


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## NH homesteader (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey our goats are related! Haha my doe's dams sire is Promised Land Ram-Beau.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 17, 2016)

Personally I don't think it is right to try and get the papers re-issued.
*You bought the goat with the agreement to NOT breed and as a pet. *
The papers have VOID written on it for a reason.

Her rump is very steep and that is a consideration in breeding as well.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 17, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Personally I don't think it is right to try and get the papers re-issued.
> *You bought the goat with the agreement to NOT breed and as a pet. *
> The papers have VOID written on it for a reason.
> 
> Her rump is very steep and that is a consideration in breeding as well.


Maybe you can explain to the breeder why you would now like to breed/ register her. You could offer to pay an extra fee, too.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 17, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Maybe you can explain to the breeder why you would now like to breed/ register her. You could offer to pay an extra fee, too.



I was actually thinking of contacting her and telling her she might want to get a second opinion. I was thinking if she wanted to, we could arrange something where she is bred, and the former owner gets to keep the "pick of the litter". Not sure yet what I want to do, but if she's so fabulous in the udder, and actually looks normal, it might be worth it to get someone who KNOWS what they are doing, asses her conformation. If she's actually OK, it would be a real shame not to breed her.

She might also be more "ok" with it, if I was willing to take on the risk (i.e. vet bills) of the birthing, should something go wrong.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 17, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Hey our goats are related! Haha my doe's dams sire is Promised Land Ram-Beau.



That's so cool! But I guess we are close enough to each other where that is a likely thing.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 17, 2016)

She also has Sugar Moon in there but not the same goats.  Yeah I don't know where the Promised Land breeder is,  but Sugar Moon are Vermont I think.  

I tried to buy a buckling  from one person and a doe from another and am glad I did research because they were related.  So yeah it happens!


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## Ferguson K (Aug 17, 2016)

I'm not saying breed her. Clearly someone, somewhere, decided the doe should not be bred. May it have been the breeder or the lady you bought her from, there's a reason ( that no one truly knows ) behind the want to keep this doe as a companion. I would contact both the breeder and the person you bought her from and ask for detailed descriptions on why BOTH people think the doe should not be bred.

I repeat SBC here: You bought her as a companion. 

I sold a doe earlier this year as a companion because she nearly died during kidding. Her uterus ripped and she bled BAD. The kid presented with shoulder in front of it's head and was wider than the doe. We had to re position it and yank it, which in a doe THAT SMALL is not easy. I know for a FACT this doe will never be bred again because she belongs to an elderly woman who only wanted her to browse her fence line and be a companion. If something were to ever happen, I firmly believe I will get the doe back.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 17, 2016)

I agree that you should talk to both,  if possible,  but at the very least the person you got her from to understand why she didn't want to breed her.  Tell her what people have said after seeing pictures.  I would be so upset to find out a doe I sold as a pet was being bred,  if I had genuine concerns for her safety.  On the other hand if I sold a doe I just didn't want to breed for my own use,  I wouldn't care as much.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Personally I don't think it is right to try and get the papers re-issued.
> *You bought the goat with the agreement to NOT breed and as a pet. *
> The papers have VOID written on it for a reason.
> 
> Her rump is very steep and that is a consideration in breeding as well.



I don't think she should try to go around the person she got the doe from to get her papers.

She couldn't do it even if she tried.

But in my opinion there isn't anything wrong with the goat. 

I definitely don't agree with you that a steep rump would be a negative consideration towards breeding.  Nigerian rumps as a breed are steeper than standard and they have less kidding problems than standards.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

TalksToDogs said:


> I was actually thinking of contacting her and telling her she might want to get a second opinion. I was thinking if she wanted to, we could arrange something where she is bred, and the former owner gets to keep the "pick of the litter". Not sure yet what I want to do, but if she's so fabulous in the udder, and actually looks normal, it might be worth it to get someone who KNOWS what they are doing, asses her conformation. If she's actually OK, it would be a real shame not to breed her.
> 
> She might also be more "ok" with it, if I was willing to take on the risk (i.e. vet bills) of the birthing, should something go wrong.



I think that is a good idea. 

As to the udder, won't know what that will look like until she does kid.
We are all just saying that for a yearling Nigerian she has exceptionally nice looking teats.  They are nice and long and well placed.

I'm very familiar with NC Promised Land and Ram Beau.
That's why I asked about her dam and sire because when I went to the breeders site, I saw they had some NC Promised land animals.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

Ferguson K said:


> I'm not saying breed her. Clearly someone, somewhere, decided the doe should not be bred. May it have been the breeder or the lady you bought her from, there's a reason ( that no one truly knows ) behind the want to keep this doe as a companion. I would contact both the breeder and the person you bought her from and ask for detailed descriptions on why BOTH people think the doe should not be bred.
> 
> I repeat SBC here: You bought her as a companion.
> 
> I sold a doe earlier this year as a companion because she nearly died during kidding. Her uterus ripped and she bled BAD. The kid presented with shoulder in front of it's head and was wider than the doe. We had to re position it and yank it, which in a doe THAT SMALL is not easy. I know for a FACT this doe will never be bred again because she belongs to an elderly woman who only wanted her to browse her fence line and be a companion. If something were to ever happen, I firmly believe I will get the doe back.



I agree, she didn't pay for a registered animal, she paid for a companion.

It is difficult to reposition a kid in any Nigerian due to their small size.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> She also has Sugar Moon in there but not the same goats.  Yeah I don't know where the Promised Land breeder is,  but Sugar Moon are Vermont I think.
> 
> I tried to buy a buckling  from one person and a doe from another and am glad I did research because they were related.  So yeah it happens!



Promised Land, also known as NC Promised Land was in Kinston, NC.

They don't breed any more.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

TalksToDogs said:


> I have some udder pics.
> 
> Her reg. Name is "Took A Leap Kaliyah" (I consider her new show name to be "Stop Being an A$$hole", but that's just me. )
> 
> ...



I will say again, she has really nice teats.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I don't see anything wrong with it.
> All the does that have had precocious udders and have freshened are super milky does. Some even out milk other goats that are the same age/breed/freshening. I know some folks worry about mastitis but we haven't had any issues.



I remember last year at one of our club meetings the subject came up.  One old timer said that if had a doe with a precocious udder he took her to the stock yard sale.  Some folks mentioned mastitis, and lopsided udders.  I haven't had any so I can't say yay or nay.

But, from my perspective it's just not normal.  Mammals aren't supposed to start making milk without giving birth.  It's not natural for that to occur.
That it is occurring in an immature animal tells me that there is some type of hormone issue their.  Too much hormones.  I can see where this could cause problems later in life.

Did you see the picture of that buck that was in milk?  They say he was from strong milk lines.
I wouldn't want to breed him with any of mine.

This is just my opinion.


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 17, 2016)

Ferguson K said:


> I'm not saying breed her. Clearly someone, somewhere, decided the doe should not be bred. May it have been the breeder or the lady you bought her from, there's a reason ( that no one truly knows ) behind the want to keep this doe as a companion. I would contact both the breeder and the person you bought her from and ask for detailed descriptions on why BOTH people think the doe should not be bred.
> 
> I repeat SBC here: You bought her as a companion.
> 
> I sold a doe earlier this year as a companion because she nearly died during kidding. Her uterus ripped and she bled BAD. The kid presented with shoulder in front of it's head and was wider than the doe. We had to re position it and yank it, which in a doe THAT SMALL is not easy. I know for a FACT this doe will never be bred again because she belongs to an elderly woman who only wanted her to browse her fence line and be a companion. If something were to ever happen, I firmly believe I will get the doe back.



Her former owner was by her own admission, an inexperienced breeder. 

SHE thought the doe's hips were to narrow. I didn't consider her to be wrong, because I have even less experience. Coming in here, many people with more experience than BOTH of us, are saying that this is probably not the case. She has never been bred, and has therefor never had any birthing problems. 

I am probably going to contact the seller and see if she ever got a professional opinion. It would be a shame to take a perfectly good doe out of commission, because of a mistake.


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## babsbag (Aug 17, 2016)

@OneFineAcre I have a doe that won't settle but goes into heat and about 5 months after her last heat she comes into milk; this is her third year of doing this. I have another one that I don't breed and she does the same thing. Granted they have freshened in the past but honestly I just consider it a gift.


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## norseofcourse (Aug 17, 2016)

Coming from outside the 'goat world', it does appear that the doe being cowhocked makes her rear appear narrower.

Is being cowhocked considered much of a fault in goats?  I know it's generally undesirable in horses.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 17, 2016)

Just throwing out some random thoughts here - certainly not suggesting any one thing or another - just my thoughts.


1.  I'm a little confused... (not an uncommon thing, lol)  Which seller voided the papers?  Was it the original breeder, or the second (inexperienced) owner?  If the original breeder sold the doe with papers she/they obviously had no problem with the doe being used for breeding.

2.  If it was the second owner, the inexperienced one, eh....   She may be trying to protect herself because she 'thinks' the goat might not kid easily.  If this were a doe that had a previous bad birthing experience that would be understandable.  But, just to "guess" that there might be a problem...  

3.  I have sold Pygmy goats that I 'suggested' should not be used for breeding.  I do not sell those goats with papers. Period.  I've explained to the buyers the reason why I did not feel the goat should be used for breeding.   But, I've had those folks call me up and say that they bred the doe and she delivered just fine.

4.  I looked back at the pic of the doe on the first page of this thread and in that pic I don't think her rump looks steep. She is very cow-hocked, but I've never seen cow-hocks have any bearing on whether a doe can deliver a kid.

5.  Never hurts to go back to the previous owner(s) and have another discussion!

6.  For a family milker you don't need papers.  

7.  If I buy an animal - it is mine.  I can do with it as I please.  However, if I promised it would be a pet/companion animal I would have a crisis of conscience if I did not do as I said I would.

8.  Never hurts to go back to the previous owner(s) and have another discussion!!


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> Coming from outside the 'goat world', it does appear that the doe being cowhocked makes her rear appear narrower.
> 
> Is being cowhocked considered much of a fault in goats?  I know it's generally undesirable in horses.



Cow hocked isn't considered a plus that's for sure


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## NH homesteader (Aug 17, 2016)

@OneFineAcre  thanks! So I assume it's a good thing to have that buck show up on paperwork? I also have Rain-Beau as SD.  

I think @frustratedearthmother nailed it in that response.  I'll be interested in hearing how the conversation goes with the previous owner.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @OneFineAcre I have a doe that won't settle but goes into heat and about 5 months after her last heat she comes into milk; this is her third year of doing this. I have another one that I don't breed and she does the same thing. Granted they have freshened in the past but honestly I just consider it a gift.



I can definitely understand your perspective


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## Southern by choice (Aug 17, 2016)

Precocious udders are very common in heavy production lines in most standard breeds. Rarely see this in Nigerians.
In another group (standard breeds) this was recently discussed. Most do not milk those udders but it is not seen as undesirable by most that breed standards. Many that have been breeding and producing excellent animals say that usually their FF udder will be fantastic.
If breeders took all their does that have precocious udders to the stockyard we would have whole top breeding lines there. 

Hormones are hormones. 
Humans mammary systems enlarge during hormone cycles as well.  

Kiko's are pretty wild and not heavy managed and tweaked like the dairy goat world yet this is also not uncommon... probably because they were derived from wild goats & top dairy goats in NZ.

Our doe from last year is a Kiko/Lamancha cross. Precocious udder. Aunt Kiko- precocious udder. The majority of our LM precocious udders, their offspring- precocious udders.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> @OneFineAcre  thanks! So I assume it's a good thing to have that buck show up on paperwork? I also have Rain-Beau as SD.
> 
> I think @frustratedearthmother nailed it in that response.  I'll be interested in hearing how the conversation goes with the previous owner.



If you research you will find a lot of Promised Land Animals all over the country
I believe there was a buck named Beau and all of the -Beau"s came from that line


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## NH homesteader (Aug 17, 2016)

Ah OK. I haven't  paid much attention to the who's who and the only name I know (other than local farms)  is Rosasharn.  

@Southern by choice do you milk your kikos or are they just for meat? Fascinating breed.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 17, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Precocious udders are very common in heavy production lines in most standard breeds. Rarely see this in Nigerians.
> In another group (standard breeds) this was recently discussed. Most do not milk those udders but it is not seen as undesirable by most that breed standards. Many that have been breeding and producing excellent animals say that usually their FF udder will be fantastic.
> If breeders took all their does that have precocious udders to the stockyard we would have whole top breeding lines there.
> 
> ...



Well I don't charge for my opinion so folks can take it with a grain of salt


I guess some have had different experiences in the past with this that shapes their outlook


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## TalksToDogs (Aug 19, 2016)

The inexperienced owner that bought her from the breeder was the one that voided her papers. But yeah, at some point I will email her and see if she'd want to come to some sort of deal about her.


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## babsbag (Aug 20, 2016)

I would tell the owner that you would like to breed her and IF she produces kids you could either give her one or pay her then or whatever you agree on. 

If you have any experienced goat vets or other breeders near you maybe they could look at her too and give you an opinion just in case there is something that isn't being seen in the pictures.


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