# FF refusing to let kid nurse, UPDATE she's nursing on her own! Yay!!



## Araylee (Apr 5, 2011)

So my FF doe kidded today, a lovely little doeling. Only problem is, she won't let her nurse. Poor baby is trying so hard to suck on the FRONT end of mom (and she lets her) but won't let her anywhere near the back half where the milk is. I did get her to hold still a few hours ago, long enough to let baby get a few good sucks, but that was a loooong time ago for a little baby. Have Pritchard nipples and pop bottle ready to go-do I milk her out and have a bottle baby? Also, Mom has one herd-mate. I went out there to check on baby, who was settled in the hay while Mom pigged out. Baby got up crying, Mom ignored her, and baby went to get a drink from herdmate, who proceeded to knock her over and butt at her "GET OUTTA MY SPACE!!" I am concerned that baby isn't going to make it if I don't bring her inside and make her a bottle baby, but was really hoping to let her Mom raise her. Any ideas??


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## RioLindoAz (Apr 5, 2011)

I wish I could help you out, but I'm a total beginner at goats myself. (no experience, lots of research)

Maybe attempting to holding mom still for a little longer than last time will get her going..?


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## Roll farms (Apr 5, 2011)

Sorry, I don't dam raise so I can't really help you with that part, but you need to let that baby fill her belly ASAP...
Either hold mom or get a bottle of her colostrum into her.


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## Araylee (Apr 5, 2011)

Will she last through the night w/ a full belly if I milk mom out and give her a bottle?


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## Roll farms (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh yes...If she's a standard-size goat, 6-8 oz should do it, if she's a tiny one (pyg or nigi) I'd say 4 oz.
I only bottle feed my kids (even newborns) every 6-8 hrs, she'll be fine as long as she gets a full belly.


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## Araylee (Apr 5, 2011)

PHEW! Went outside, baby was in a ball, cold and sleepy. Milked mom enough to get an oz or so and gave it to baby in a bottle-once she tasted that milk it was "MmmmmmmORE!" LOL! So we pinned Mom against the fence and let her get a nice, full milky belly. After she nursed from both sides and was satisfied we let Mom go, who went into protective nurturing Momma stance toward the herd mate that beat up baby earlier, and then sniffed and licked her baby. So, I'm hoping that a few more sessions of having to hold Momma and we'll be OK-half the problem is that baby is trying to nurse in all the wrong places. And I have no doubt that she got her 6 oz of colostrum in! Will go out in the morning and do it again if we need to, hoping that the grain=milked=relief of pressure equation will start making sense.
I'm hoping I don't have to milk momma full time for a couple of months, because her little teeny teets are not easy to handle!

Thanks for your help, I'm definitely feeling relieved!


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## babsbag (Apr 6, 2011)

One of my non-FF had twins last year and decided that twins were not for her and only wanted the buckling. So for 8 weeks I would go out at least 3 x a day and pin Moonpie against a fence or feeder and let her doeling nurse. The doe never did accept the kid and would push her away whenever she got close. The little doeling would sneak up her aunties when they were eating grain and grab a drink when they weren't looking. Kinda cute. 

The doeling seems to know that Moonpie is her mom and still hangs out with her and will sleep next to her, but Moonpie just tolerates her. Moonpie has a kid (doe) from the previous year that she is very bonded to. But not to the one from last year. Moonpie moped for days when I gave the buckling away, but could care less about the doe. Weird. 

It sounds like your doe may be getting the idea. I think that nursing kicks in some instinct in them, at least it is supposed to. Good luck, I bet she will be ok.


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## Rebbetzin (Apr 6, 2011)

We had the same thing this last week!! The kids (Triplets) were born last Friday. 
Shadow, a previous "Show" goat, had never nursed her babies! They were taken from her at birth. She was milked by hand or machine. This was her fourth freshening, she cleaned up the kids great, 

When we came back in a few hours, to check on how she was doing, her udder was tight as can be! She kicked at the kids if they attempted to nurse!!

So... since they were hungry, and we are novice goat people, we milked her out, fed the babies.  The next day, we took her and the kids  to the milking shed, gave her some grain, tied up one back leg, so if she kicked it would put her off balance. Then we put the kids on her.  It is has been five days now... Shadow stands still and doesn't kick them off anymore, but we have yet to see them even attempt to nurse on their own.

We are hoping, by this weekend, they will be nursing, without anyone "hooking them up" to Shadow.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 6, 2011)

This is tricky, but i have had good luck getting them to start letting baby nurse and then not so good of luck.  

A small pen area no bigger than 4x6 to keep them close together, can help.

I would not feed grain while trying to get baby to nurse. Many mom's do not want to deal with baby while eating. I would do what you just did, first get baby interested by giving a little milk with a bottle, I just use a 3cc syringe to keep the baby from getting confused, even then I have seen them get excited to see me and think I am the food source and not mom. Once you get their interest up let the baby suck all over mom, giving mom time to think about it, then nudge the baby a little further back, when you feel that you have spent enough time doing this, and mom wont stand still, you will have to let baby nurse by holding mom, but it is best to give her plenty of time to decide on her own. 

there is hope, since she lets the baby nudge on her and acts interested in the baby, a mom that truely rejects baby wont even do that.   She is just nervous about her personal area. 

I would keep the baby with her, and keep trying. I would say 3 or 4 days, more than that, there probably isn't any hope.

Edited: to fix some really poor typing. I must have been in a rush.


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## Araylee (Apr 6, 2011)

Well, baby made it through the night! Was sleeping when I got there but when she heard me she scrambled over and started bopping my leg. No baby, the milk is THAT way, LOL!! Tied mom to fence again and let baby nurse both sides. She was still trying to get that chest hair to let down, but once I pointed her at the milk end she figured it out. I'm not too thrilled about having to go through this every few hours, but since we want baby to get momma milk I guess I have to. :/ Then again, any excuse to go out and pet the fuzzy baby...


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## savingdogs (Apr 6, 2011)

I am fairly new to goat breeding but I have a FF that was much the same. Two months later, she adores the little rascal. The mom that butted her baby away lifts her leg to pull it out of the way so he can ram her udder.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 6, 2011)

I had a FF this year who not only walked off after kidding, but actually *flipped* her baby end over end with her horns everytime the poor lil doeling got close to her.  Whether she went for mama's front end, back end, middle, legs -- didn't matter.  She *hated* that baby.

Perhaps this isn't most folks' protocol, but I beat the FF senseless until she was basically afraid to move, then pinned her against the wall, and let the baby nurse..  After a few times, she kinda 'got' that the baby nursing actually made her feel *better* and took to her like white on rice.

Kid's about 6wks now -- huge -- and there have been many times when I've seen her not-so-large mama stretch out and call to her to get her to come nurse when she gets a lil tight..  It's funny cos the "baby" is fully autonomous at this point and could survive on forage with no problem, and she literally has to cram her way up under mama and often lifts mama's whole hind end off the ground as she punches, but mama still calls to her..


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 6, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I had a FF this year who not only walked off after kidding, but actually *flipped* her baby end over end with her horns everytime the poor lil doeling got close to her.  Whether she went for mama's front end, back end, middle, legs -- didn't matter.  She *hated* that baby.
> 
> Perhaps this isn't most folks' protocol, but I beat the FF senseless until she was basically afraid to move, then pinned her against the wall, and let the baby nurse..  After a few times, she kinda 'got' that the baby nursing actually made her feel *better* and took to her like white on rice.
> 
> Kid's about 6wks now -- huge -- and there have been many times when I've seen her not-so-large mama stretch out and call to her to get her to come nurse when she gets a lil tight..  It's funny cos the "baby" is fully autonomous at this point and could survive on forage with no problem, and she literally has to cram her way up under mama and often lifts mama's whole hind end off the ground as she punches, but mama still calls to her..


I can't beleive you are admitting to that.  We head-shooted a doe for an entire week once to get her to take one of her babies, when she decided she wanted only one and not two. yes, it did work. she had just enough room to get up and lay down and we put the food and water right in front of her. 

Just between you and me, I might have, on occasion, had to convince a doe to knock it off. But I am not admitting to anything.


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## Chirpy (Apr 6, 2011)

As stated you actually have an excellent chance at getting these two bonded and the baby nursing by herself since momma is allowing the baby near her.   Keep working with them as you are...   Three weeks ago I pulled a baby the first night and brought her into the house to bottle feed her for the first 24 hours as momma was trying to kick her and the baby was shivering too much so I was worried about the health and safety of the baby.   (Momma hadn't raised a baby before - her kids had been pulled in the past.  She liked the baby but didn't want it near her udder.)  But, the next day I took the baby back out to momma and held momma while 'helping' baby find the teat.  (It actually helped in my case to let the baby suck on my finger; which was next to the teat; and then gently switch the mouth over to the teat.  Once the baby figured out that the teat actually gave her a yummy reward she didn't need my finger to help get her started.  It took three times for her to really get it on her own.)  

Each time we held momma it got easier (it took two of us the first 2 or 3 times) and by the end of the first day I just had to set my hand on momma and she would allow the baby to nurse.  Since momma hadn't tried to kick the baby since early that morning I left them together 24/7 from that point on and both are doing great.   We watched them all day to make sure there was no more aggression from mom toward baby -- there wasn't.  Momma just needed to figure out how it worked; I just encouraged her quietly and gently all day.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 6, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I can't beleive you are admitting to that.






> We head-shooted a doe...


There were times when I wanted to head-shoot this one too, but when I say 'head-shoot' I mean 'shoot-in-the-head'..  

 



> Just between you and me, I might have, on occasion, had to convince a doe to knock it off. But I am not admitting to anything.


They're so rough with each other...I figure all I'm really doing is speaking their language when I lay into one like that.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 6, 2011)

I sold a red 75% boer/nubain doe last week for 50bucks to an experienced farmer(38year sheep and goats). She was here buying a couple other better goats. I hate that goat, and we were going to get around to loading her on the truck and taking her to the auction and just never got it done. 

My husband said,"What were you thinking, you could have gotten 85 or 90 for her in the stockyards." I reminded him this doe is half deer, wild as can be, extremely dangerous to handle, and the auction charges several dollars a head to handle them(probably charge us double or triple to handle this one). 

She had her first set of kids a couple weeks ago, and I swear she would have been stew meat if she abandoned her kids. You can't do anything with her, You can't get near her, she jumps anything under 4 feet and all our kidding pens are only 3 feet. I said, "If she drops those kids on the ground and walks away from them, I am getting the gun out and shooting her."

Lucky for her she had good maternal instincts, went up in the field and had them in 30 degree weather, but then bit at me when I tried to pick one of them up and followed me to the barn and into a kidding pen and stayed in the 3 foot high pen for 3 days with them, until I let them out. 

She screams constantly for the babies. She is so loud, You will be out there doing chores and if you get in between her and the kids, she will let out this horrible scream. She has scared me half to death a couple of times. She is always screaming at those kids, trying to get them to follow her and fussing over them. "I HATE THAT GOAT"  

Yup I sold her for 50 bucks to an experienced farmer who knows what they are getting themselves into. God Bless them.


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## Araylee (Apr 7, 2011)

LOL you guys are so funny! I'm hoping not to have to beat my goat up in order to get her to feed her kid!
But, so far, it's been a 4x daily pin-mom-down battle! She lets her nurse one side fairly easily, but the other side must be extra tender or something, because she kicks and  jumps when baby goes for that side! URGH! I am tired of holding that doe to the wall. Also, I'm not sure how long to let baby nurse for. I don't want to overfeed her and her mom is from production lines, and since she's a single kid I'm not going to be surprised if she is making more than her baby needs. Do I let her nurse one side until she pops off? Both sides? Until her tummy feels like it's going to burst??


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 7, 2011)

Let her nurse as long as she wants, when she isn't interested she is full.  

I am sorry the mom isn't giving in, I am sure it is very very frustrating.   

IF you had said the mom is showing no interest in the baby, not cleaning it, wont talk to it, wont let her come near her at all. I would have suggested pulling her and bottle feeding her. Since you feel it is a personal space issue with the udder and she just doesn't want baby to touch the udder and is still paying attention to the baby, I still think there is hope. Is she still talkign to the baby and loving on it? Is she laying near the baby or on the opposite side of the pen? 

If you leave them out, a good mom wont even walk out of the pen right away, would never walk away from baby with out checking on her and letting the baby know she is going to the hay manger to much, and the mom will come runnign back talking to the baby often to check on her.  

You could give it another 24 to 48 hours and then let the pen open and sit back and watch and see if she is showing in maternal instincts. At that point if she just walks away and doesn't come back lookin for the baby it is a done deal, and you will need to decide to just bottle feed or to keep pinning mom  to the pen probably for the next 6 to 8 weeks.


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## Araylee (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks 20kids, that helps.
Mom has never talked to her kid. I never even heard "mommy voice" when she was in labor and with the early baby stage. She licks it occasionally and lets it come close to her front end. She leaves her for long periods to go eat hay at the other end of the pen (35 feet or so from the shelter?) and baby will maaaaah for her and she doesn't act like she hears her. (We have two alfalfa feeders, the one IN the shelter, and the other one on the opposite corner that is SUPPOSED to be set up for the doe that broke her leg, so she doesn't get beat up by momma!) She tolerates her kid, but it seems that's pretty well the extent of it. I can't see inside the pen from the house but I think that's where she lays when chewing her cud. She's been outside a lot today, rubbing on the fence, climbing the play structure, eating alfalfa. Baby was out w/ mom for 5 minutes but otherwise is alone in the shed. We had planned on doing the "fias co farm" method of letting baby nurse during the day, separating kids from moms at night, and then milking in the morning, thus allowing us to leave on occasional overnight camping trips. This definitely puts a kink in things-I can't leave a nursing baby alone with a mom who won't feed it, and I can't exactly take her with us. 
I guess I could plan on milking her out morning and night for 8 weeks, bottle feeding, and then drying her up after that. Shouldn't miss too much camping that way.
...Anybody take their goat camping with them?? I've thought about loading everybody up in a small stock trailer, having them all sleep in there at night, and letting them munch on forest goodies during the day. Is that completely mad??

I'm giving her through the weekend. If she doesn't start to "get it" by then, I'm going to start milking her out. Hopefully the kid isn't so used to nursing that she wont take a bottle!

Thanks for the help! I'd thought she was bonded "enough" but given what you said is normal I'm thinking not.


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## savingdogs (Apr 7, 2011)

I can see us camping like that. Our goats do not leave us however and when we free range them here they do not wander away. 

I would think the difficulty would be transporting the goats to where you are going without it being a big hassle. But if you camp close by, perhaps that isn't an issue. I think it would be fun to camp with goats, but you had better have somewhere to put them at night for predators (trailer?).


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## Chirpy (Apr 7, 2011)

Actually, larger goats (usually wethers) can be used as pack animals and people take them camping all the time.   Teach them to walk on a lead rope and they can go anywhere with you... as long as they are legally allowed.

You could easily take a kid (the four legged kind) camping; even letting her sleep in the tent with you.  Once they settle down to sleep at night they seldom get up until daylight so you wouldn't even have to worry much about them pottying in the tent.   Or, put her in a large plastic tub with towels/straw/etc. at night in the tent with you.

The biggest issue that I would have taking my goat camping is if there are predators around that would be drawn into camp by the smell or sound of a goat.  That would depend on where you are camping.


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## Araylee (Apr 7, 2011)

In the woods in an unregulated camp space not far from the wilderness where they drop off the naughty "3 strikes your out" yellowstone Grizzlies, in stock campground in the wilderness between Idaho and Montana, and backpacking near the Canadian border. Cougars, grizzlies, and now wolves are all a threat. We have a dog to alert us to danger and a .10 handgun for just-in-case. We take our human kids (4 of them) into this same wilderness starting at 8 weeks old. I figure if we can keep our children safe the goats shouldn't be any worse. I would bring a trailer for them to sleep in. It's a small herd of 3, and they come when called and stay where they can see us.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 7, 2011)

Not to fuss at you, but I am going to, did you catch the part at the beginning where I said a 4 x 6 kidding pen. NO Bigger!!!  She may have never taken her, but that is way tooo much space (35 feet from barn) for her to wonder away from baby.   

Did you ever have her in a smaller space with the baby? If you did I apologize for fussing at you, if I miss understood. 


but Next time she kids and doesn't act like that is the coolest thing on the planet, put her in a really small pen. Don't let her out  for atleast 48 hours or more.


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## Araylee (Apr 7, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Not to fuss at you, but I am going to, did you catch the part at the beginning where I said a 4 x 6 kidding pen. NO Bigger!!!  She may have never taken her, but that is way tooo much space (35 feet from barn) for her to wonder away from baby.
> 
> Did you ever have her in a smaller space with the baby? If you did I apologize for fussing at you, if I miss understood.
> 
> ...


Fuss away, I'm new!
I did not put her in a kidding pen b/c my herd is two does. If I separated this doe from the other, they'd both scream until I put them back together. In addition, my current setup is a shed that's enclosed on one end w/ 5' welded wire that opens w/ "barn door" style doors into a 35 or 40 foot long, 10-12 foot wide 5' welded wire pen. I'm thinking putting both does plus new baby into the shed wouldn't work because it's not big enough for the other doe to escape. If I did lock mom and kid into the barn it'd be 40-50 sq ft ish for the two of them but the other doe would be locked outside in the snow and cold. I'm using the other half of my shed as a chick brooder and place to store feed so she can't go over there.  Next year I'll have three does, more space, and a kidding pen. Or a small horse trailer would work too.
I'd read that does can kid w/out being separated from the herd and that separation stresses them out so I thought she'd be fine...


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 7, 2011)

Araylee said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would normally agree with the not seperating part, I don't pull any of mine out of the herd and I have 20 in the barn and coral area. I put them in kidding pens after they kid, only if they are having bonding problems or kids are really not walking well, or in the winter if I need a heat lamp on for a couple days. With that said, as soon as your doe kids and you realize she isn't showing excellent bonding and mothering with the kid, she needs to be in a small space no bigger than 4 x6 or maybe 4x8, Plywood works well, just drill holes and wire it together.  This small space, gives mom not much to do other than bond with baby. 
this way you would only be taking up a 4x8 or 4x6 area in the barn and the other does can still come in the barn.Sometimes a doe that is close to another doe will come look over the edge and lay right next to the pen. Another reason to cut the hieght down to 36inches. 

Sorry I didn't realize you hadn't had her penned up and what your barn situation was, I would have insisted more at the beginning to make something to put them in. 

worse case you have a bottle baby, I know it would have been easier if mom took her.  We love camping to. We drive back and forth twice a day to do chores. It is a pain.


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## Araylee (Apr 8, 2011)

I went out this morning to hold mom and I didn't even have to go into the pen! Baby saw me and ran for udder and mom stood still and let her empty both sides, even lifting her leg out of the way and then licked her bum! Went out at noon, same thing. Mom is getting the idea that she needs to nurse her baby and I hope that within a couple days I won't have to go at all! YAY!!


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 8, 2011)

Araylee said:
			
		

> I went out this morning to hold mom and I didn't even have to go into the pen! Baby saw me and ran for udder and mom stood still and let her empty both sides, even lifting her leg out of the way and then licked her bum! Went out at noon, same thing. Mom is getting the idea that she needs to nurse her baby and I hope that within a couple days I won't have to go at all! YAY!!


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