# Help with newborn kits



## yannimom (Apr 18, 2011)

I have a doe that is known as an "attack" doe.  Any time anyone comes near her, she tries to karate chop them.  The kids have named her Tai Kwon Doe.  Any way, everyone said she just wants bred, so I bred her.  When I went out yesterday, she was frantic about building her nest.  Good sign.  Checked on her again in the afternoon.  She had 4 kits!  One looked to be deformed or maybe underdeveloped.  It was dead and I removed it.    One is really, really tiny, about half the size of the 2 that look pretty normal.  She had only a little bit of fur in there.  This morning as I entered the barn, I could hear the kits crying.  When I checked them, they were scattered and bloodied.  When one rolled toward her, she smacked at it.  They have yucky stuff covering their bottoms.  It doesn't look like she is being a good mom.  This is her first litter.  Should I take them away from her?  Maybe bring them to her to nurse?  I am afraid she will stomp them to death.  Thanks for any advice.  I was really hoping this would work out for her.


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## DianeS (Apr 18, 2011)

My opinion is she is going to end up killing them. Some does are just stupid that way.

If it were me, I'd take the kits away from her. Keep them in the nestbox with straw and fur (or replacement fur) in a warm place in your home. Clean them off, too. 

In the late evening after taking them away, return them to mom for one or two minutes. If she nurses them, fine. Remove them again after she hops out. (Mom should be pretty full of milk at that point, and instinct says the pain of the milk goes away if she nurses, so she might actually nurse them.)
If she does not nurse within the minute or so, take them back out. You can try again the next morning after that. 
In short, if she nurses them I'd return them for short periods once or twice a day for nursing. But I'd keep them away the rest of the time. 

Whether you want to try to bottle raise them (in addition to trying to get mom to nurse) is up to you. It's HARD, and not everyone has any success. You might also want to ask around to see if anyone has a nursing doe that might accept your litter as foster babies. 
Other people allow nature to take its course, and allow the babies to die. It all depends on how much work you have the interest and ability to do in mom's place, and your feelings about letting nature work vs intervening.

And about the mom - in my opinion it's time to make her into your dinner. Sorry it's working out that way. But since she's not nice for a pet, and not nice for a breeder... there's not much else to choose. Unless you just like having her in the hutch and looking at her. Hard decision there, too. 

So congrats on the live birth of kits, sorry about the mom being stupid, and keep us posted on both.


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## Legacy (Apr 18, 2011)

If they were mine, I would leave them alone. If she takes care of them and nurses them, then good. If not, it is really, really hard to keep them alive.

Since this is her first litter, sometimes it takes a little bit to for the instincts to kick in well.

We have had bad first mammas that turned out to be great mommas after the first litter. One of my best breeders is one of those. I would breed her one more time. Then if she doesn't do a good job, she would become dinner.


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## dewey (Apr 18, 2011)

Some does don't do great with people because of their early  environmental exposure (inproper handling, lots of stress from things around them, etc.), but they can do great with 2nd or 3rd litters, and especially if there's little human interaction.  It's hard to say without knowing the doe's history and what she's been exposed to.    Under the very best environment and conditions I'd like to give 3 chances.


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## rockdoveranch (Apr 19, 2011)

Oh my!  I kind of wish I had not read the OP. 

Please let us know what happens.

Best of luck!


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## yannimom (Apr 20, 2011)

I decided to give her a chance.  Since this is her first litter, and she is the way she is (she's been this way since i got her, I thought some love and attention might be what she needed) I thought maybe just leaving her alone with them for a few days might kick her into mother-gear.  It didn't work.  She ignored them and now they are gone   I will give her one more chance.  I consider her unchanging attitude strike one, this litter loss strike two.  So if she does it again, that's strike three.  I will put her out with the buck again.  I will put one maybe two other does out also, so maybe I will have a foster mom available.  Live and learn I guess.


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## dewey (Apr 20, 2011)

It's not uncommon for even the best moms to abandon or destroy unhealthy kits/litters...being that 2 of her 4 kits were obviously unhealthy, perhaps she knew the others also had issues. 

Sometimes they mellow after breeding but if not, I can't imagine it'd be any fun having to handle kits with a territorial/combative doe to deal with. 

It's so disappointing losing litters.  Hoping things work out.   

Do you know her age, and what type of temperment her own mom had?


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## rockdoveranch (Apr 20, 2011)

When our French Lop FINALLY had a baby 4 1/2 weeks ago I was looking for an informative website and came upon - http://www.welshrabbitry.com/birth.html > a lot of great information here.

One of the 2 does I bought last May was recovering from fight wounds when I got her.  She was 4 months old at the time.  She ALWAYS attacks the buck when I put her into his cage so I stopped trying to breed her.  Otherwise she is a very sweet girl.

I asked the breeder if her behavior was because of her earlier experience being attacked when she was young.  The breeder was offended by the word "attacked", and said no!  I am convinced she instantly attacks the buck because she was so badly injured when she was young.

I used to rotate our 3 French Lops in a dog run for exercise.  The buck started lunging at me when it was time to put him up.  I stopped turning him our and he is now as sweet as he can be in his full-time cage or when he is with the other doe.  

I am old now, but frankly, when my kids were growing up, I had a policy of not keeping any animal that might injure a child.


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## yannimom (Apr 20, 2011)

Thank you all for your comments.  Dewey, the doe is a bit under a year old.  I think the fella that I got her from mostly just fed and watered and didn't really handle the rabbits all that much.  I do have 2 other does from him that are wonderful girls, (I got them at a much younger age) not overly friendly, but easy to handle, no biting, smacking or acting just plain ornery!  Rockdoverranch, I agree about the children.  I have tried to sell her to other breeders, but to no avail.  She is a beautiful doe.  She actually shows really well.  I have 4 small children and they know what she is like, but when they have their little friends over it is worrisome.  No one is allowed in the rabbit barn without a grown-up. Period.  If she isn't going to produce, I can't really see keeping her around.  Anyone need a very spirited doe?


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## rockdoveranch (Apr 20, 2011)

I just took a look at your website.  Absolutely love "Foxaway's Dorothy" !

Is the doe you are posting about on your site?

When I was a kid we had chinchilla colored uppity-eared rabbits.  When my kids were kids we had French Lops.  I have never shown rabbits or anything before, though I have been to a couple of rabbit shows.  Did not have a clue what was going on.

We had the entire extended family out here for Thanksgiving in 2005.  We told everyone not to go into the pasture with the Texas Barbado rams, or jump over the huge fire we had going as doing either of the two was dangerous and we are 45 minutes away from the closest hospital.  

The adult guys who were in their late 20s spent a lot of time running and jumping across the fire, and several went into the ram pasture to get wood.

Fortunately no one was injured.  It was crazy because I am talking about well educated college guys who supposedly are not stupid!


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## yannimom (Apr 20, 2011)

Rockdoverranch, thanks for looking at the website!  My daughters love Dottie too!  She is a nice rabbit, very friendly and always ready for petting!  Very easy for the girls to handle.  The rabbit in question is named Eve.  She is on the webiste.  I have not actually shown her because I am afraid she will hurt someone or someone's rabbit.  I have had judges look at her when there were no other rabbits on their table and they all think she's very nice.  Oh, and young guys are all like that I think.  Full of pi$$ and vinegar as they say.


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## rabbitlady4433 (Apr 20, 2011)

I don't think guys grow out of jumping over fires!  And the next time I have to say don't use gasoline to start the fire, I'm just gonna walk away.....


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