# Guardian dog chewed up a goat today.



## dianneS

Okay, I've posted on here before about my livestock guardian dog.  He seems to do great one day, then he's a nightmare the next.  

He cannot be trusted with chickens, he's killed two so far that got into his pen.

He has been giving me a hard time about accepting new goats into his herd, and he is still chasing them (just when it seems like he's accepted them, he goes after them again!)

Today, I heard one of my goats crying and I caught the dog chewing on her.  She is a little goat that he has been with since he got here on day one!  I found blood on the ground and she was all chewed up.  Not badly, but if I keep him in the pen with her, he will probably finish her off.  

I cannot contain this dog at all.  He breaks welds on dog crates and welded wire fencing.  He manages to move the rubber stall mats in the horse stalls and dig out.  If he can get his paws into any dirt, he can dig out of any pen I put him in.  I can only contain him by tying him to a tree, then he barks constantly.  

He was breaking out to go kill chickens, and we installed electric fencing (which was a big pain) that solved the wandering and the chicken killing, but now he's after my little goats.  

This dog is proving to be more trouble than he's worth!  I called the woman I bought him from and found out that the mother of this pup was very bull-headed and began killing chickens and she had to be re-homed to an Alpaca farm!  

I think I gave the LGD thing a good shot, but I'm thinking he's not for me.  What do I do with him now!??  Who's going to want him?  I think he'd be okay with larger livestock (like his mother!!)  I want him off my property ASAP!!  He's more trouble than he's worth, I'd rather have predators!


----------



## helmstead

This is why we don't have one of those big white things in our pens...blegh!

Hope your doe is ok, and that you can rehome him quickly.


----------



## ksalvagno

Will the breeder take him back?


----------



## sred98

Sorry to hear you are having trouble.  I'm just curious what kind you have.  I've had the worst luck with Pyrs and Pyr mixes.   Had an Akbash that showed up for a while and I loved her.  I think I found my next LGD.  I'm looking for puppies right now.

Shelly


----------



## dianneS

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Will the breeder take him back?


I'm hoping she will.  She has big boar goats and some cattle she could pasture him with, so I hope she does, or at least finds him a home for me soon.

  Coincidentally, a guy who bought three puppies from her is trying to re-home them too.  Apparently the reason is that he is "taking his life in a whole new direction", but I'm suspicious.  

The mamma dog of my pup was re-homed to an Alpaca farm that only had "larger" livestock.  Apparently that dog was really subborn and bull-headed too.  I didn't find this out until after I got my pup and he killed two chickens.

We're so upset.  We hate to get rid of any animal, but I can't put my other animals in jeopardy just for him?


----------



## dianneS

sred98 said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear you are having trouble.  I'm just curious what kind you have.  I've had the worst luck with Pyrs and Pyr mixes.   Had an Akbash that showed up for a while and I loved her.  I think I found my next LGD.  I'm looking for puppies right now.
> 
> Shelly


Oh my, he is a pyr mix.  1/4 great pyr and 3/4 Karakachan.  His daddy, the full-blooded Karakachan is supposedly a wonderful dog.  His mamma, the 1/2 great pyr, 1/2 karakachan was the stubborn, bull-headed chicken killer that had to be re-homed!


----------



## username taken

helmstead said:
			
		

> This is why we don't have one of those big white things in our pens...blegh!


Yup. Exactly why I will NEVER have a dog as a guardian. I dont really need guardians for my area, but if I get them it will be an alpaca or a donkey.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

I've never had a LGD breed before so this is of course speculation, but here are my thoughts anyway: stubborn and bull-headed shouldn't even be part of the equation since this is not a training issue.  My newf wasn't trained to rescue drowning (or even perfectly capable ) swimmers but she does it anyway.  A LGD should have INSTINCT.  If your pup's dam wasn't a suitable LGD (obviously not if she's killing livestock and labeled "bull-headed" for having a high prey drive) then the breeder should NEVER have used her in their breeding program.  Period.  

I'd re-home immediately, but I'd also hesitate to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Bad breeding is no reason to condemn capable working dogs.  I would, however, condemn the breeder!!  Sorry to hear about the pickle you're in.


----------



## BDial

This is one of the reasons I love having my mare out with the goats. She will take care of anything in the pen that she can get her teeth and hooves into and my English Shepherd (the only canine she respects) can and will take on anything outside of it. I have watched my horse take out a Lab that ran another horse into the fence. She picked it up by the back, jerked her head up and threw it and when it hit the ground she pulverized him. We warned the owner (who lived a mile away) that if the dog was caught chasing one of the horses again it would be dealt with. I just wasn't expecting my horse to do it.
Sorry about your LGD. Sounds like you got at bad one. If you have to drop him off at the shelter. That way you don't have to sacrafice anymore of your animals to him.


----------



## dianneS

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I've never had a LGD breed before so this is of course speculation, but here are my thoughts anyway: stubborn and bull-headed shouldn't even be part of the equation since this is not a training issue.  My newf wasn't trained to rescue drowning (or even perfectly capable ) swimmers but she does it anyway.  A LGD should have INSTINCT.  If your pup's dam wasn't a suitable LGD (obviously not if she's killing livestock and labeled "bull-headed" for having a high prey drive) then the breeder should NEVER have used her in their breeding program.  Period.
> 
> I'd re-home immediately, but I'd also hesitate to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Bad breeding is no reason to condemn capable working dogs.  I would, however, condemn the breeder!!  Sorry to hear about the pickle you're in.


That's what I was thinking.  How could she call her dam "bull-headed" if they don't require training to do their job, they are supposed to go on instinct?  The breeder told me over and over again that this dog wouldn't require any "training" at all.  Now each time I have a problem she tells me he needs to be "put in his place" and I need to be "really firm with him".

She did call me back and left a message while I was out.  She seems convinced that the dog is going through puberty and needs to neutered.  That's going to be a chore in itself since a farm vet won't do it and getting this big thing away from his herd and into a vets office is going to be quite an ordeal!

I'm also concerned that she may be right about him and in due time he may turn out to be a really good dog.  I'm just about at the end of my rope with him is all.  He's destroyed fences, pens, even shreaded a main support beam in my barn with his bare claws!  (I mean shreaded too, there is nothing but a toothpick holding up the corner of the barn now!)  I can't confine him by himself, its impossible.  He can squeeze into the tiniest openings too!

I bought a muzzle for him for the time being, but I'm sure he'll figure out how to remove it.  I'm so upset, I can't sleep.

I'm supposed to call his breeder and the breeder of her male tomorrow and they are going to give me further instructions on "what to do".  Great.


----------



## hikerchick

How is the little goat doing?


----------



## dianneS

The little goat is fine.  She actually loves that stupid dog.  She doesn't often protest when he "man handles" her.  She totally trusts him.  All of the little goats trust him.  The big goats are rough with him, but the little ones sleep next to him, so I guess he thinks he's equal with them, rather than submissive to them.

I got in touch with the dogs breeder and she thinks the dog needs neutered.  That could very well be true.  She's given me some advice on how to "train" this dog, even though she told me originally, that he wouldn't need any training, he would just work on instinct!    Apparently I'm supposed to be really "tough" with him.  

If I could find someone that has larger livestock to take him, I'll re-home him.  He's just been so much trouble so far with my fences and pens and his barking and such, I'm just at the end of my rope.  If no one wants him, we'll just have to find a way to work it out.

I do think he's an adolescent and he's just acting out.  One of my does is in heat, perhaps that is setting him off?  Its just so frustrating because he was just beginning to accept the new goats, and the new goats are even learning what his different barks mean!  When he gives his warning bark they run toward him and toward the barn rather than away from him!  That was awesome to see!  Then he goes and does something like this!!!    That's the way its been with him though.  Maybe if I can get through this rough period, he'll turn out to be an awesome dog.  He does have really good guarding instincts and along with his adolescent behavior, his guarding behavior seems to be on hyper-drive too!  He's really super sensitive to anything out of the ordinary all of a sudden.


----------



## dianneS

Oh, BTW the blood on the ground was not from the little goat!!!  The dog broke a toe nail and it was bleeding!  Yay.  The goat is not that bad, just slobbery, not bloody!

I got in touch with the breeder and she is confident that the dog just needs to be neutered and assured me that he would behave after we get that done.  She said her male dog went through a phase like this when he was an adolescent.  He didnt' viciously attack my little doe, he was playing with her, treating her like a chew toy.  That sweet little girl has been hanging out with that stupid dog all day!  She prefers his company over the other goats?!?!?  I don't get it?  That's why his hurting her is so much more infuriating, she trusts him so much.

I guess I'll have him neutered and give him one more chance.


----------



## foxywench

neutering MAY help...
however it may not.

this doesnt sound liek a training issue, this sounds like bad breeding...
and the fact the breeder is now trying to make up excuses "mothers bull headed" "he needs to be neutered" "you need to be toughter with him" just accentuates the fact.

personally i belive all dogs not being used for breeding purposes should be neutered...
but LGD's are instinctual, thats why they are so great for doing the job there doing.
unfortunatly willy nilly breeding...*sigh*
it sounds like the mother of this litter shouldnt have been bred in the first place due to instability in the job she was supposed to be doing...
and the breeder didnt disclose this knowing what you were plannign on using the dog with.

a responsible breeder would have told you "well the mother doesnt do well with smaller livestock so this may not be the best litter for you" ect...
true its hard to tell as puppies, but still the fact she JUST mentioned that "oh the mothers the same..." says an awefull lot.

now personally id put the money into neutering him, if for no other reason than if you do decide to rehome him he wont be used as a puppy machine passing on those possibly genetic bad traits to his offspring...
give him a little time to recover and go back to basics with the training if you feel like hes calmed a little...
but personally once a dog starts killing small animals THATS their instinct and your smaller goats may just be too small...

if you do decide to rehome him ask for the cost of neutering him as an adoption fee.

good luck, its tought, LGDs can be an amazing resource, but due to the nature of the breds its VERY important if going that route to get a good dog form good breeding


----------



## dianneS

foxywench said:
			
		

> neutering MAY help...
> however it may not.
> 
> now personally id put the money into neutering him, if for no other reason than if you do decide to rehome him he wont be used as a puppy machine passing on those possibly genetic bad traits to his offspring...
> give him a little time to recover and go back to basics with the training if you feel like hes calmed a little...
> but personally once a dog starts killing small animals THATS their instinct and your smaller goats may just be too small...
> 
> if you do decide to rehome him ask for the cost of neutering him as an adoption fee.
> 
> good luck, its tought, LGDs can be an amazing resource, but due to the nature of the breds its VERY important if going that route to get a good dog form good breeding


I will be having him neutered and give him a second chance.  He didn't viciously attack the little goat, he was playing (way too rough) with her, so I'm hoping that it is adolescent behavior and he will outgrow it, especially with neutering.  I hope


----------



## dianneS

I asked the breeder why she bred that female?  She said that the female didn't start exhibiting the bad behavior until after she had her litter of puppies.  Up until then, she thought she was a great dog.


----------



## ksalvagno

I think it is good that you are neutering him. I always feel it is good to take the hormone aspect out of it no matter what. Especially since you aren't planning to breed him.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Neuter for sure!


----------



## dianneS

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I think it is good that you are neutering him. I always feel it is good to take the hormone aspect out of it no matter what. Especially since you aren't planning to breed him.


I will certainly get the hormone aspect out of the way before I decide if he's worth keeping or not.  

Sometimes he's just amazing and then he does something stupid!  Perhaps its just his age, maybe if we get through this rough patch he'll turn into a great dog.

I just have no idea how I'm going to get him to the vet!  That is going to be a chore in itself!


----------



## sred98

I _really_ hope that it works out for you.    Does the dog "mouth" you when you pet it or interact with it?  If so, you need to firmly correct it, because that is what he is doing with the babies.  They shouldn't "mouth" at all.  I have a Border Collie mix that does that to the geese.  To be fair, the geese start it, but that's not the point!   Maybe working on that, along with neutering will take care of the problem.  

Good luck!

Shelly


----------



## dianneS

sred98 said:
			
		

> I _really_ hope that it works out for you.    Does the dog "mouth" you when you pet it or interact with it?  If so, you need to firmly correct it, because that is what he is doing with the babies.  They shouldn't "mouth" at all.


Nope, he doesn't mouth me at all, or the goats whenever I'm around.  He's pretty slick.  He's very well behaved when he knows I'm watching.  Whenever I'm gone, he acts up.  I can see him out my upstairs window.  When I run out there to stop him, he hears me coming and stops long before I get there!  I may have to get a remote trainer for him.

So far today, he's being good.  He wore a muzzle all day yesterday and pouted and sulked a lot.  I took it off when it got dark out.  He's being very good and attentive and all of the goats are acting as one herd now to, new and old goats.


----------



## Grillo

I'm not an expert at all, but I 've read quite a lot while raising two female great pyrenees, 13 and 9 months old.  To be quite honest, from what I've read and experienced, your dog is just acting like a juvenile/pup, which I know most all LGDs will do and will get over that as they mature.  Every now and then my 13 month old tried to play with my young chickens, which she grew up with (they were born when she was 4 months old) , and was corrected every single time, until she had her first heat.  After she got off her first heat, she began to ignore the chickens, except for a small hello smell everytime they meet.  I still don't give her unrestricted access to them but I'm very confident now that she's ready to take on her flock, full time.  Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the pup is still learning.  As long as he's playing and not really attacking (prey drive) he's right on course, given that you keep monitoring and find a way to discipline for every fault.  I think you need to give him hell for misbehaving, no need to get physical, just yell, really YELL, pick up buckets and throw them in his direction and lift your arms.  When he crouches a little and tries to avoid you, leave him alone and start acting as if nothing happened and he's a good boy again, keep on doing your chores or act as if tending the sheep.  He will be "shamed" and if he's got an LGD inside him, his sensitivity and meer shame he went through will make the behavior stop, till he forgets again in a month(s)  Then you do it again.  As he matures, he will stop the play and you'll have a real LGD which will give you (god willing) thousands of nights of sound sleep knowing he's out there taking care of business.  But yes, training an LGD (not to play with livestock) to maturity takes a lot of time and a lot of patience, that's just the way it is.  

I know this is long but I also have to comment on the neutering idea, I wouldn't do it.  LGDs don't become LGDs until they MATURE, everywhere you can read that maturity is what turns a pup into an LGD.  He needs his hormones and testosterone to tell him that he's a dog and to stop him from acting like a pup.  Neutering him will stop that process and you may end up with a juvenile LGD (mentally) for the rest of his life, and THAT is a nightmare.  I would wait till at least 2 years old, then chop his ... things LOL.  MHO  Good luck.


----------



## dianneS

Grillo said:
			
		

> To be quite honest, from what I've read and experienced, your dog is just acting like a juvenile/pup, which I know most all LGDs will do and will get over that as they mature.
> 
> Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the pup is still learning.  As long as he's playing and not really attacking (prey drive) he's right on course, given that you keep monitoring and find a way to discipline for every fault.


I just wish I could catch him in the act, but I can't!  He knows not to do those things when I'm around!  I wasn't planning on neutering him this soon either.  I wanted him to mature too.  I just don't know what to do now?  I'm still thinking about it.  I took his muzzle off of him yesterday and everything seemed fine.  I went out later and found my little does ear bloody again.  So now I'm really disappointed.  I just don't know how I'm ever going to trust him?


----------



## FarmerChick

back to the breeder
or dog pound or anything

get rid of him

seriously you don't need this noose around your neck



he has attacked your stock.
any chance this dog gets he will do it again.  unless you can truly contain him away from your stock...expect some deaths.

not worth it ever


----------



## dianneS

FarmerChick said:
			
		

> back to the breeder
> or dog pound or anything
> 
> get rid of him
> 
> seriously you don't need this noose around your neck
> 
> 
> 
> he has attacked your stock.
> any chance this dog gets he will do it again.  unless you can truly contain him away from your stock...expect some deaths.
> 
> not worth it ever


That was my original thought.  He didn't "attack" though.  He's a puppy and he's playing too rough and thinks this one goat is his personal toy.  That's the dilemma.  And the goat he is chewing on/playing with loves the dog!  Its a weird relationship, but she really likes that stupid dog!


----------



## aggieterpkatie

If I ever had a reason to get a guardian, it'd definitely be a dog.  My friends have several Pyrs in VT, and those dogs are AWESOME and so gentle with the sheep.  I've read that they're supposed to be "stubborn" because they need to think independently and not be told everything to do.  If they need to be told everything, they wouldn't make a very good guardian unless the owner is out there every moment with them. 

I had a gelded donkey for a few years and he terrorized the sheep and goats. He flung a calf throug the air (by the neck) and then bit a goat on the neck. Goat ended up dying.  No more donkeys with my small ruminants any more.  


Good luck, OP.  Have you tried reading books about LGDs? Sounds like there could be some info out there to help you, instead of relying on the breeder.


----------



## Grillo

dianne,


You need to contain him somehow.  Most people won't recommend placing a pup with the stock full time till he matures and becomes trustworthy, which yours clearly isn't.   The fact that the dog plays with the sheep, and the sheep aren't afraid of him, to me that signals a good future guardian.  I've always found it amazing how most any chicken I have, has trusted my two females in just a couple of encounters and how even though I feed them, they won't let me get close to them.  Gaining livestock trust is, I believe, the true mark of an LGD.  Now my 13 month old has licked two 2 month old chicks to death (I actually believe they may have drowned in the slobber as they had no puncture marks on their bodies, but were soaked)  I have also seen her carry biddies in her mouth and I take them out of it and other then slobber, they were fine.  Your pup is obviously playing, which he shouldn't, and whats worse, he's being too rough.  Now I've seen my two females play and boy are they rough, they slam each other so hard I don't understand how they don't break any bones.  This play directed towards sheep, spells trouble.    This pup should be placed with older sheep, or even with rams that will teach him manners.  He's so well socialized and bonded to the sheep at this point that separating him from them until he matures and only taking them on supervised time will not affect his bond to the sheep.   My advice build a strong kennel inside the pasture and keep him there so he can see the sheep but not bother them.  Take him out to socialize only supervised till he matures, which usually starts after 12 months although it can take till 24.  IF that is more than you want to invest in the dog then you should place him somewhere else.

Another suggestion would be since you can't contain him, take his "buddy" away and contain the sheep he's playing with and see if he won't do it with the others.  If he begins to play with the others than you need to contain the dog somehow.   Also give him a lot of toys and bones to play with.  He's a pup and he's got to direct that puppy energy somewhere, try to make sure it's not directed to his friends.

Have you used a drag? or a dangling stick or chain?  Get a BB gun and shoot him when you seem him from your house bothering the sheep.  Before anyone begins to tell how cruel this is I will let it clear that I mean a low power gun that won't hurt the pup but will get his attention.

I know you can get past this, but it takes time and patience, and outsmarting the damn pup.  But you need to assess if the reward is worth the investment.  Maybe you can find someone who wants to trade an older, started LGD that is on its last years, for a younger, fresher blood and trade him out.  Once you see a mature LGD at work you can consider if you really need one, and if you do place a new pup with the old one and HE will train the pup and teach him manners, which is much easier on you.  Good luck.


----------



## foxywench

i will add

LGD's take longer to mentally mature than many other breeds (this also goes for giant breeds like danes)

however Neutering will NOT stop this MENTAL development.

it has been shown that EARLY (before 2) neutering can effect growth patterns, if hes under 2 at neutering he may always look a little tall and lanky rather than fully filling out.
HOWEVER neutering will NOT stop his MENTAL development...it will NOT make him "forever a puppy" nor will it stop him from becomming a great guardian dog.
this is true for any dog.
neutering will NOT effect basal personality...it may calm him in terms of hormonal, it will NOT change his base instincts, if those base instaincts are to hunt, neutering will nto change that, if his base instinct is to protect, again neutering will NOT change that...

in this case the way you describe it...
it SOUNDS like juvinile behaviour, or "the teenage stage"  generally being rough, testing the boundries, figuring out his place in "the pack"
in which case neutering may help...

but if it turns out he is seeing the goats as prey it may not change...

i REALY REALY hope he calms and can turn into a good dog with his maturity...
just dont get your hopes too high.


----------



## dianneS

Grillo said:
			
		

> Another suggestion would be since you can't contain him, take his "buddy" away and contain the sheep he's playing with and see if he won't do it with the others.  If he begins to play with the others than you need to contain the dog somehow.   Also give him a lot of toys and bones to play with.  He's a pup and he's got to direct that puppy energy somewhere, try to make sure it's not directed to his friends.
> 
> Have you used a drag? or a dangling stick or chain?  Get a BB gun and shoot him when you seem him from your house bothering the sheep.  Before anyone begins to tell how cruel this is I will let it clear that I mean a low power gun that won't hurt the pup but will get his attention.


I have considered taking the little ones away from him so that he can't hurt them.  It would be easier than trying to contain him!  I have used a drag, not a dangling stick yet.  I'm not sure if those would work in this case anyway since his "buddy" prefers his company and even hangs out with him when he's tied to a tree!

I can tie him and he can see the goats, but not hurt them.  I've also put a muzzle on him, he could still play, but can't bite.  He doesn't play with the muzzle on because it really subdues him a bit and he pouts a lot!

I've recently noticed something.  I do have at least two does that are in heat.  The little one is old enough, she could be in heat too.  The dog is an adolescent and becoming sexually mature.  He has tried to "have his way" with the bigger goats and they won't tolerate it.  I caught him trying to do the same with the little goat (I couldn't scold him because by the time I got there he stopped )  The little goats neck and ears were slobbery.  I think he may be biting her and chewing on her when he's trying to "do his thing" with her.  Perhaps he's trying to hold her down or something since she's so small he can't get a good grip on her?  I'm not sure, its just a thought.

I've seen him try to play with the bigger goats.  He doesn't hurt them at all, just jumps around them and does the "play bow" and runs around and tries to get them to join in.  They just ignore him.  He couldn't chase them if he tried.  They aren't afraid of him, so they just ignore him when he acts stupid.  Its the baby goats that are the concern.  I was thinking that he was forcing himself on this little goat, but she chooses to hang out with this dog!  Maybe she thinks he's her boyfriend?

I think a pen for the little goats would be a good solution.  I'm still on the fence about neutering?  I'm just not sure what to do.  If his behavior is due to his hormones, wouldn't neutering help with that?


----------



## ksalvagno

I would get him neutered ASAP. Once he starts mounting the goats, that isn't going to stop. If you let that become a habit, then neutering him won't stop it and he may hurt a goat.


----------



## dianneS

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I would get him neutered ASAP. Once he starts mounting the goats, that isn't going to stop. If you let that become a habit, then neutering him won't stop it and he may hurt a goat.


I'm thinking I will.  The breeders keep telling me that will fix the problem.  I've had plenty of dogs neutered at six months and they matured just fine.


----------



## Grillo

dianneS,


I guess my real concern with the neutering is the impact it will have on him as a working dog.    My oldest female (13 months) was very mellow, which is not bad but she's supposed to be a working dog.  While she wasn't friendly, she was certainly very indifferent to strange people.  From 11 months till now I have begun to see a noticeable change in her attitude.  She's now starting to bark at people that seem "off", are raggedy or seem suspicious.  She stands at the edge of our turf and huckles up she lets them know quite clearly they are not welcome.  That's what I want.  I've also begun to see her try to drive off strange dogs that come close to our property, before she would either ignore them or worst try to play with them.  I attribute all this to her starting starting to mature and to act as an adult.  I also related how she has stopped trying to play with her chicken friends.  I believe she still has a lot to mature and she won't be fully confident to engage stray dogs till she's 2.  I will wait to that time to neuter.  Anyway, thats my concern.  In your case it is also that if he's just acting like a pup (playing)  I would be concerned him staying in that mental stage in his development.  But as previously posted it seems that may fear is unfounded.  Good luck and let us know how things go, I've been following your experience with your karakachan since you got it.


----------



## dianneS

I did want to wait to neuter him, I wanted him to mature and become a little more territorial first.  Now that everyone is urging me to neuter him (especially the breeders I've talked to, it seems that they are always right on the money with the advice they give me) I'm not so sure I should wait.

He is starting to mature and become more protective.  I noticed those changes in him before I noticed the negative behavior.  He's very suspicious of strangers now and seems to be on "hyper-alert" lately.  Even if I look a little different, he gets suspicious of me too.  If the chickens are penned up for several days, he barks at them when I let them free range.  He's been barking a lot in the middle of the night too, at what, I don't know, but its an alarm bark for sure.  Even his goats are catching on to his barks and head for the barn when he alerts them of danger.

I have one more breeder to call.  She knows everything about Karakachans and even more about goats.  I'll ask her specifically what she's experienced with neutered Karakachans.  One thing the breeders keep telling me, is that Karakachans are much different than other breeds of LGD's and I can't always follow the same rules that apply to other LGD breeds.  That is always in the back of my mind as well.  I'll let you know what we do.  For now, the little goats are separated from the rest and the dog is with the big goats.


----------



## FarmerChick

How is his behavior with the big goats?
just curious


----------



## dianneS

FarmerChick said:
			
		

> How is his behavior with the big goats?
> just curious


He's fine with the big goats.  They head butt him and make him yelp every now and then.  If he tries to play with them, he just jumps around them and acts silly and does his play bow, but they just ignore him.  They won't tolerate his antics and he knows it, but he tries every now and then to get them to play with him, but it never works.


----------



## dianneS

I have been doing some research.  It seems that the dog is almost definitely displaying adolescent playful behavior, not aggression.

I've also found several articles that indicate that neutering does not affect the dogs performance as a guardian, and that neutering a young dog can help avoid some of the problems associated with adolescent hormonal changes.   However, I haven't been able to find out what is the best age to neuter?


----------



## cmjust0

On October 1st said:
			
		

> Wait till it gets nice and cold out..  Hehehehe..  Your guy looks to have a nice winter coat coming on already, so when it's fricken just FREEZING COLD outside, he's liable to just come alive and go berzerk on you.


Plus, he's what...9 months old at this point?  He's on the brink of being a teenager, there are hormonal goats all around, it's good playin' weather..  I'm sure he's feeling pretty feisty.  

I'm not trying to make excuses or anything...really.  I'm just saying that it doesn't really surprise me that he'd slobber one at his age.  Should he?  No, of course not -- especially not to the point that he breaks a toenail.  That's a little much, IMO..

I definitely won't make any excuses for the chicken killing, either -- that's a sign of prey drive, plain and simple.  If you can break him of it, then it's probably not a very strong prey drive.  Some dogs you can break, some you can't...just depends on how much drive they have 'built in.'  

The rough-housing, though...not that uncommon.  I've seen it..  I know how nerve racking it can be to see a gigantic dog grab one of your goats by the back of the neck and look like he's gonna bring her down.  In our case, he mostly did it out of boredom.  He wanted someone to play with him, and frankly, I'd be bored out there too.  When you'd go check them out, it was only ever slobber...never broke skin, no matter how scary it looked from a distance.

The irony is that while ours is mostly done with his puppydom (2yrs next month), he actually put a hole in one of our goats for the first time just the other day.  I dunno exactly what his reason was, but it happened right under my nose.  I was throwing hay out of the back of the truck, the goats were clamoring around picking at the bales as I was throwing them, and the next thing I know, I hear growling and a goat baa'ing and a bunch of scuffling.  I look down and Ivan's flat gettin' after one of the goats.  

I yelled at him and he stopped, then just looked at me like..."Dude?!?  What was I supposed to do?!?!!"

I still don't know exactly what happened, though I suspect he became a casualty of the fresh hay frenzy..  Probably got stepped on.  The whole scene where he was going after her looked...awkward...like they were tangled up and sorta scrambling.

She wound up with about a 1" gash in her brisket...tooth-sized.  Bet it hurt.  Packed it with furazone and gave her a round of Bio-Mycin to prevent infection.  Everybody's copacetic now...no problems between these two either before, or after that particular event.

If it's any consolation, we tried to put Ivan in the barn with the goats one night when it was really cold, and by the next morning, he'd dug a nearly-Ivan-sized hole under the gate.

Thing is, what's under the gate is hard-packed #2 gravel.


----------



## dianneS

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> On October 1st said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait till it gets nice and cold out..  Hehehehe..  Your guy looks to have a nice winter coat coming on already, so when it's fricken just FREEZING COLD outside, he's liable to just come alive and go berzerk on you.
> 
> 
> 
> Plus, he's what...9 months old at this point?  He's on the brink of being a teenager, there are hormonal goats all around, it's good playin' weather..  I'm sure he's feeling pretty feisty.
> 
> I definitely won't make any excuses for the chicken killing, either -- that's a sign of prey drive, plain and simple.
> 
> If it's any consolation, we tried to put Ivan in the barn with the goats one night when it was really cold, and by the next morning, he'd dug a nearly-Ivan-sized hole under the gate.
> 
> Thing is, what's under the gate is hard-packed #2 gravel.
Click to expand...

That's right, you did mention he might change with the cold weather.  That makes sense.  He is nine months old now.

The chicken killing, we're not so sure was prey drive, or if he saw the chicken as an intruder.  The chickens are never directly in the same pasture with the goats.  The one that got in with him was really flakey and had very flightly behavior.  If the chickens are cooped up for a few days, the dog will bark at them when he sees them again, then he gets over it and ignores them.

Alex is a digger too.  I can't contain him in anything.  He even moved the rubber stall mats of a horse stall just to get to the dirt and dig!

First thing yesterday morning, I saw him chasing all of the goats, by the time I got out there, the little doe he likes so much was all slobbery.  I tied him up for a while, went back out and left him loose.  When he tried to chase, I yelled at him.  He stopped immediately.  He doesn't often display negative behavior in front of me so its hard to catch him in the act.  I did get him several new toys which he chewed to bits in a matter of hours.  When the goats would get near his toys, he'd lunge at them and snap at them.  I scolded him for that too and held him down in a submissive pose with the goats around him.  He was fine the rest of the day.

I guess we'll keep working on it.


----------



## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> The chicken killing, we're not so sure was prey drive, or if he saw the chicken as an intruder.  The chickens are never directly in the same pasture with the goats.  The one that got in with him was really flakey and had very flightly behavior.  If the chickens are cooped up for a few days, the dog will bark at them when he sees them again, then he gets over it and ignores them.


Something in me doubts that the chicken killing had to do with him seeing the chickens as a threat....but ya never know.  Could be, I guess. 



			
				dS said:
			
		

> Alex is a digger too.  I can't contain him in anything.  He even moved the rubber stall mats of a horse stall just to get to the dirt and dig!


Ivan's a digger, too, but really only if you confine him.  I think it's because he's nervous by nature and close confinement prevents him from being able to really make sure there are no boogeymen around.  His instinct is to get out where he can see and hear and be free to fight if the need arises.

He did dig one hole out in the barnyard for which I had absolutely no explanation at the time..  What I didn't realize was that one of our other dogs was concurrently digging another, different hole in the backyard.

When they each finished, I discovered that there was an errant piece of 4" PVC pipe about 10' long which connected the two holes.  I think maybe one heard something in the ground and started digging, and then the other heard the sound of digging as it resonated through pipe to their side, and started digging also..  Or something..  I dunno..  All I know is that once the ends of the pipe were exposed, I was like...wow...that's weird.

And then they both quit.

 



			
				dS said:
			
		

> First thing yesterday morning, I saw him chasing all of the goats, by the time I got out there, the little doe he likes so much was all slobbery.  I tied him up for a while, went back out and left him loose.  When he tried to chase, I yelled at him.  He stopped immediately.  He doesn't often display negative behavior in front of me so its hard to catch him in the act.


Sounds very familiar, though we never tied Ivan up.  I'd usually just yell to get him to break off...which he always did, immediately, just as you say...then I'd eyeball him until he'd go lay down somewhere.  That was it.  I'm sure there were times when I didn't catch him running the goats, but like I said before...he's only ever actually hurt one recently -- and just that once -- and he did it right in front of me, without shame or hesitation.  

Something clearly happened that made him feel like that was acceptable, and frankly...well...we trust his judgement enough at this point that we simply doctored her up and moved on without wringing our hands or pointing fingers.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I did get him several new toys which he chewed to bits in a matter of hours.  When the goats would get near his toys, he'd lunge at them and snap at them.  I scolded him for that too and held him down in a submissive pose with the goats around him.  He was fine the rest of the day.


That also sounds pretty familiar, especially if a goat happens around Ivan's dish at dinner time.  He growls and gets reeeeeeeally still, and if they don't move away, he lunges and snaps.  That usually does the trick.

We don't yell at him for that either because, hey, it's HIS dish -- the goats need to learn that.  We don't want them eating his dog food anymore than he does, and we trust him not to actually hurt the goats over food.


Dunno if I've recounted this or not, but the very day we got Ivan, he mixed it up with the herd queen..  She would not leave him be, and he was having none of it.  He just wanted to be left alone, and she just kept circling and circling and harrassing him..

He'd growl and snap, and she'd move away...but then come right back.  So he'd grown and snap again, and she'd move away and come back again..  Over and over..  The goat was smart enough to learn that snapping did not equal biting, so she finally got to where she wouldn't so much as flinch -- even with him snapping his jaws *right in her face*.

So, on they went..  Finally, he snapped and lunged pretty good and the goat just got MAD..  She circled and went uphill of him...  I knew exactly what was coming next and sorta went..oh god..she's gonna rare up and butt him.

Well, she cocked that head to the side, and buddy lemme just tell ya..  He'd had ENOUGH of her.  He knew precisely what that head tilt meant and went full bore at her, jaws snapping, slobber flying, and grabbed her by the ear just as she was achieving lift off..  She squalled like a mashed monkey and took off the other way, scared stiff.  He chased her for all of about 10' before stopping, turning, and laying down where he'd been standing before.

We went into the barnyard expecting to see an ear split wide open and bleeding, but much to our surprise...just slobber.  Not a drop of blood.

He knew exactly what he was doing -- it's not as if he couldn't have brought her down by the ear and ripped her throat out.  Or just ripped her ear off to teach a lesson.  

Thing is, he didn't want to do that..  All he wanted was to be LEFT ALONE and she had to be taught a lesson.

Ever since then -- day one -- she's respected him.  They mingle.  She's neither scared, nor tries to dominate.  Everything's cool.

But she had to learn the hard way..

That's just how it goes sometimes.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I guess we'll keep working on it.


Best of luck..  They're trying dogs sometimes, but if he turns out to be the dog you thought he could be...he'll be soooooo worth it in the end.


----------



## dianneS

I was outside all day today fixing fences, so I did get to catch the dog "in the act" a few times.  Nothing major though.  He was on pretty good behavior with me out there.  

He did take off and start chasing his favorite little doeling and I was able to yell and he stopped immediately.  I still put him to the ground and made him stay in a submissive pose for a few minutes.

I took him to his toys before coming in the house.  When I went out later to feed for the evening, I was a little disappointed.  It appeared as if he had been chasing and the little girl was slobbery again.  

He did bloody her ear a second time, late last week.  That's when I bought the muzzle, I just couldn't stand it anymore.  

He was really wound up when I went out to the barn this evening, like he just wanted to play, he even wanted to play with me.  I don't know if I should totally discourage playful behavior altogether, or is it okay for me to play with him?  Would he learn the difference?  That its okay to play with people but not with goats?


----------



## cmjust0

I play with Ivan almost every night, especially if he seems super hyper.  I figure he's gonna play regardless, and I'd much rather he play and burn off some energy with me rather than with the goats..  Plus, he gets to learn what's acceptable and what's not _from me_.  The goats can't tell him to back off his over-exuberance turns a playful bite into something more meaningful -- but I can.  And I have.  They're smart...all it takes is a stern word.  You already know that from how quickly you can call him off.

I find it interesting that you say the dog "even" wanted to play with you....like you're surprised.  Makes me wonder about the dynamic between the two of you?  Is it purely alpha/submissive, or are you pals?  If you're not pals, is that _your_ choice...have you been told not to treat him like you'd treat a regular dog?  To basically ignore him, and let him 'bond' to the flock?

To me, Ivan's a dog first.  When we go out, he greets us at the gate wagging his whole body.  We love on him constantly..  Seems to me there's this idea that if you pay too much attention to an LGD, they lose their will or ability to work and turn into house dogs or something..  "Spoiled," or whatever..  Personally...the more familiar I've become with LGDs, the more I think that whole theory is a bunch of HORSE HOCKEY with no merit whatsoever.

If I were squatted down petting Ivan and a stranger came walking to the gate, he'd abandon me in a hot second to confront the threat.  I know that for a FACT because when we've had people come out and Ivan decides it's time to go on duty, being loved on is literally the furthest thing from his mind.  I couldn't convince him to come get a head scratch when he's onto something if my life depended on it..

So...tell me about the dynamic at this point.  What's it like between you two?


----------



## Grillo

I think the whole, don't get the dog bonded to you, don't pay attention to it, etc...  The classic method applies if the dog is going to be in open range, away from the farm.  But if your pasture is fenced and the dog stays in it then socializing as much as possible with the dog will only make things easier and both you and the dog will enjoy a very nice friendship.  These dogs behavior is really that of friends, not master and dog.  Neither of my dogs act submissively to me, except when I get furious and start shouting at them, then they crouch and make themselves small and just get the hell out of my way.  They are so good at reading you, they know immediately when your anger wears down and they come tail wagging and we're friends again.  I've only gotten mad with them about three or four times in over a year.  The first time I got angry I was actually a little surprised that they would crouch and act "guilty" because I had never seen them do it before and they were over 6 months old when it happened.   None of them has ever gone belly up or in any other way act submissively except for those times.  They just come to you confidently and behave very honestly and respectfully towards you, just like a good friend does.  They never seem to think of themselves as less than you.  I love that.


PS>  Of course in every group and friendship there's always a leader, and in this case, it should be you.


----------



## dianneS

I was told not to play with him or get him too bonded to humans, then he would want to be with humans more than his goats.  I really took that literally when he first got here, I just stayed out of the way, had very little interaction with him, until I was sure he had bonded with his herd.

We always pet him and love on him.  He usually jumps around me and acts like a goofball every morning when he greets me.  He followed me around most of the day yesterday when I was fixing fences.  He even comes to me when I call him, most of the time, if he's not preoccupied with something else.  I can ask him to walk with me somewhere and he'll stay right by my side like he was obedience trained!  He knows his name, and learned that very quickly for a dog that isn't around humans 24/7 saying his name over and over.  The more we get to know him, the more attention and love we give him, and it hasn't interfered with his relationship with the herd at all.

I was told not to play with him however,  when we do interact with him, its calm interaction.  I read that one way of showing the dog that you're the alpha is by laying him down and just giving him belly rubs in the belly up submissive pose.  That even a nice massage in that position still shows that you're in charge.  I did that yesterday, and he loved it!

I just don't know how to play with him that it doesn't encourage prey drive?  I was told no tug of war, no fetch, no chasing, no wrestling, non of that.  But what else can you play with a dog?  We can't play checkers!

The woman I bought him from told me that when she brought her male home, she put him in with the goats and he just knew what to do.  He was just a pup too.  She said she never interacted with him and didn't do any training at all.  Now that I've been calling her with these issues, she's telling me he needs training!    She told me initially NOT to follow the guidelines that apply to other breeds of LGD's, that Karakachans "are totally different".  Now she's telling me that those basic rules DO apply to Karakachan's that they really aren't any different than a Great Pyr or any other breed of LGD!  Its frustrating.

I think he'll catch on.  He's really smart and I think we can work through this.  He seems to get wound up around four in the afternoon.  I'm going to go out tonight and play with him, let him know what behavior is not acceptable, try and wear him out a little and see if he leaves the goats alone.


----------



## foxywench

i think the person you got this boy from needs hitting with a stick...
all good LGD's have the instincts to work...and most will do a great job with no training, but hes still a DOG...

he needs interaction.
tug is tough and probably sould be out, 
drop it shoudl ALWAYS mean drop it, and thats a firm hard fast rule i use with ALL breeds...
i always teac drop it first, once thats a firm hard rule, then we occasilally play tug, they know howver what is acceptable to tug with and that when i say drop it the game is imediatly over.

theres nothing wrong with a game of fetch, belly rubs and some light wrestling.  at 9 months hes a puppy, this kind of interaction is what hes craving and since hes not getting it elsewhere hes trying to get it from your goats...
dogs interact by wrestling, just as goats will head butt and rear, and cats stalk leaves ect...
the key is to build the boundries of what is ok and whats not...
wrestle with him but when you say enoug the games over, and wrestingling should NEVER involve teeth, if teeth touc skin the game is OVER....

make up games to encorage his guarding beaviour.
if you see him trying to play wit the goats this way firm no and redirect.
personally im NOT a fan of "alpha rolling" dogs are not stupid, they KNOW your not a dog...its also a very procarious position and more people have been bittern trying to pin or roll their dogs since milan decided to teac everyone "this is how you assume dominance..."
there are better ways (letting im on his side/back for belly rubs is a different matter, encorage him to Offer the belly by teacing him "when i see tummy you get belly rubs" belive me, hell soon eb rolling on comand.
instead tac him his place in the pack by being consistent...
when you feed him make him sit and wait, es not allowed his food untill YOU say so.
do basic obedience, and teac im tricks wit positive rewards, this mental stimulation will not only help him use up some of his puppy energy, but also teac im without te man andleing that this human is in carge and if i do wat im asked good tings come.

you also must remember that a SUBMISSIVE LGD is not a good idea.  te idea beihind a lgd is tat it willtake on whats threatening its "pack" (in this case the goats)  however that "protective roll" would be played by the ALPHA in canine hiierarchy...and if one teaces their dog by pinning ect that its the bottom of the pack, that dogs is less likley to be as on the ball, as a positivly reinforced CONFIDENT LGD, a submissive dog will look to te "alpa" for advice, in tern making it YOUR job to do wat you want him to be doing...
a confident dog however is more likley to let instinct guid in those situations than one whos worried "but i might get rolled..."

i know teres ALOT of cesar advocates out there, alot who think hes a miracle worker ect...but ive seen cut footage, ive seen te fights, and its an "old fasioned" and very outdated method, which often causes more problems.

honestly...in my opinion...
living with the goats full time is more ten enough to teach him they are his pack...and some play interaction and "fun" trainign sessions wouldnt do any harm.

also with giant breeds its usually best to wait untill 12-24 months to neuter, but thats for STRUCTURAL development rather than behavioural, by 8 months the testicles have dropped and all the wiring is in place so at 9 months id say your safe to neuter based on his beaviour...
but id also try a little more interaction and see what happens...
mabe even give him a day time job?  it sounds like hes just a boisterous very energetic dog...
and you gotta tink about it...
age wise hes somewere in that 15-18 human years range...at 18 would YOU have wanted to lay around all day in a feild watcing a bunch of boring goats every day of your life...that wouldntly play with you, when you wanted to play the big ones would head butt you, however you found one that would engage you and now your getting in trouble for "playing"

i think giving him another outlet for that energy during the saftey of day when your out anyway would be great for him at this age.


----------



## cmjust0

dS said:
			
		

> I was told not to play with him or get him too bonded to humans, then he would want to be with humans more than his goats.  I really took that literally when he first got here, I just stayed out of the way, had very little interaction with him, until I was sure he had bonded with his herd.


Save perhaps for the Pyr, with which I have no experience at all, I personally think bonding is BS...  Our dog's bonded to us in a very traditional dog/master relationship, yet remains 100% effective at deterring predators.  He frankly could care less about the welfare of the goats.  They are afforded protection because he's a giant, nervous dog who's hardwired to directly confront threats.  That's all.  There's no "bond" there..

In fact, if we got rid of all the livestock and left him out there, he'd still be a guard dog..  He'd still protect the gates and would certainly still confront a coyote if it came into his enclosure.  Does the fact that he'd still guard in the abscence of livestock mean he's bonded to my tractor or something?

Hardly, right?



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I was told not to play with him however,  when we do interact with him, its calm interaction.  I read that one way of showing the dog that you're the alpha is by laying him down and just giving him belly rubs in the belly up submissive pose.  That even a nice massage in that position still shows that you're in charge.  I did that yesterday, and he loved it!


He already knows your the alpha, so you can relax there.  No need for 'alpha rolls' and submissive poses at this point (or _ever_, IMHO)..  In fact, simply bringing him food everyday is enough to reinforce the point that you're in charge.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I just don't know how to play with him that it doesn't encourage prey drive?  I was told no tug of war, no fetch, no chasing, no wrestling, non of that.  But what else can you play with a dog?  We can't play checkers!


I wrestle with Ivan.  I don't see how wrestling encourages prey drive..  Throwing a ball?  Yeah..  Running and letting him chase me?  Yeah..  For anything visually stimulating, I can see how it might be troublesome..  But to me, wrestling is more like fighting, which is something he's kinda supposed to do.  

When he was younger, I used to turn Ivan over all the time..  We'd be wrestling and I'd find ways to put him on his side..  He didn't like me 'winning,' so he practised -- with me -- and actually got noticeably better..  It's very, very hard to put him on his side now.  

He'll come into the barn some nights just an absolute ball of energy, wanting to play and fight and wrestle...so I indulge him.  Many times he'll get so excited that he just starts running after we play a bit..  And he runs..  And runs.  And runs..  All by himself.. Before ya know it, he's all out of breath and just comes loping over for a nice head scratchin'..



			
				dS said:
			
		

> The woman I bought him from told me that when she brought her male home, she put him in with the goats and he just knew what to do.  He was just a pup too.  She said she never interacted with him and didn't do any training at all.  Now that I've been calling her with these issues, she's telling me he needs training!
> 
> She told me initially NOT to follow the guidelines that apply to other breeds of LGD's, that Karakachans "are totally different".  Now she's telling me that those basic rules DO apply to Karakachan's that they really aren't any different than a Great Pyr or any other breed of LGD!  Its frustrating.


_She_ needs training.  The breeder, that is.  She set his sire out and he performed well without her having to come to any kind of understanding of his temperament.....but didn't his dam recently have to be rehomed?  If the sire hadn't performed well out of the box, he'd probably have been rehomed too and this lady wouldn't be in the LGD biz.

My opinion...you'll get little help from her.  She seems to simply have been regurgitating what she heard when she bought the sire, and simply assumed -- or _hoped_ -- it would carry on to his progeny.

It may not.  Not every single one, anyway.

Either way, she should at least have been intellectually curious enough to have determined what made her dogs tick so that she'd know if/when one displayed signs that maybe it wasn't ticking for the same reasons as the rest..

Not saying that's your dog or anything...just saying she should be able to tell, or she shouldn't be in the business of breeding them.

She sounds clueless..  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I think he'll catch on.  He's really smart and I think we can work through this.  He seems to get wound up around four in the afternoon.  I'm going to go out tonight and play with him, let him know what behavior is not acceptable, try and wear him out a little and see if he leaves the goats alone.


I think that's a great idea..

Seriously, though...if I were you, I'd sorta test his interest in moving objects at some point.  My guess is that he gets the goats moving himself and then runs after them, versus just seeing them bolt and taking off in chase..  I'd be curious to know whether he'd be interested in chasing down a stick or ball or something thrown..


----------



## dianneS

cmjust0Save perhaps for the Pyr said:
			
		

> ever[/i], IMHO)..  In fact, simply bringing him food everyday is enough to reinforce the point that you're in charge.
> 
> 
> Seriously, though...if I were you, I'd sorta test his interest in moving objects at some point.  My guess is that he gets the goats moving himself and then runs after them, versus just seeing them bolt and taking off in chase..  I'd be curious to know whether he'd be interested in chasing down a stick or ball or something thrown..


I don't know.  I think Alex may be bonded with his herd.  He gets very upset if I try and take the goats away from him.  The goats had to spend one very cold night in the barn in a horse stall and I left Alex out to guard his territory.  He was very upset that we took his goats away.  He checked them all over from head to tail when they were returned to him.  I can see him checking his goats and positioning himself between them and whatever he finds threatening.  When the threat is gone, he goes and checks them over again to make sure everyone is accounted for and in one piece.  He's done that since day one.  I know that Karakachans guard by staying with the herd rather than going out and patrolling the perimeter.  That is usually what he does.

The breeder(s) told me to do the alpha rolls.  He does wait patiently for his food and even knows how to sit on command now with very little practice.

I'm sure that he is the one getting the goats moving before he runs after them.  What will that tell me if he is interested in chasing a ball?

I've also given him his own "area" where all of his toys are.  Its a spot where he normally hangs out, he can see his goats whether they are inside or out, and he can see all around him.  I'm thinking of feeding him there too, instead of inside with the goats.

So far today, he's been very good.  I stood outside and watched the goats play, which sometimes gets him wound up.  If the new additions to the herd start head butting the original herd memebers, he gets upset and breaks them up.  Today he was busy with his bone and he just watched and allowed them to be goats with no interference!  

I'll go out this afternoon, feed the goats and play with Alex a while and then see what happens.


----------



## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> I don't know.  I think Alex may be bonded with his herd.  He gets very upset if I try and take the goats away from him.  The goats had to spend one very cold night in the barn in a horse stall and I left Alex out to guard his territory.  He was very upset that we took his goats away.  He checked them all over from head to tail when they were returned to him.  I can see him checking his goats and positioning himself between them and whatever he finds threatening.  When the threat is gone, he goes and checks them over again to make sure everyone is accounted for and in one piece.  He's done that since day one.  I know that Karakachans guard by staying with the herd rather than going out and patrolling the perimeter.  That is usually what he does.


I've seen Ivan display some of these tendencies, too, but not much.  If we locked the goats in the barn, it's not uncommon to find him laying just outside the barn...but if we lock him in _with_ the goats, he wants out.  

He doesn't necessarily run within the herd, though..  Not uncommon for him to follow them...but also not uncommon for them to be waaaay over here and him to be waaaaaay over there.  

I've seen him chase them into the barn when something comes sneaking around, too..  My belief, though, is that he's not so much concerned for their safety as that he sees them as a liability and/or annoyance _to him_ and wants to take them out of the equation..

Those things could be considered a bond of sorts, but I always come back to the idea that he'd guard the tractor....or even just an empty barn.  To me, that tells the story.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> The breeder(s) told me to do the alpha rolls.


:/



			
				dS said:
			
		

> He does wait patiently for his food and even knows how to sit on command now with very little practice.


Smartest "big dumb dogs" in the world, aren't they?  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I'm sure that he is the one getting the goats moving before he runs after them.  What will that tell me if he is interested in chasing a ball?


Prey drive.  If he'll run after something that goes zipping by, that's indicative of some level of prey drive.  You could probably judge the level of prey drive by how "into it" he gets..  A border collie, for instance, will jump way up in the air to catch a frisbee...they're bred for strong (if modified) prey drive.  Ivan, on the other hand....you can hit him in the face with a ball and he's just like "Ow!!  Why'd you do that?"  

Aggravating the goats until they bolt and then chasing after them doesn't necessarily indicate prey drive..  May simply indicate boredom.  I've seen Ivan get the goats running and then slobber a few, just because he could.  It happens -- especially when they're young and the it's good playing weather.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I've also given him his own "area" where all of his toys are.  Its a spot where he normally hangs out, he can see his goats whether they are inside or out, and he can see all around him.  I'm thinking of feeding him there too, instead of inside with the goats.


We seperate at feeding time..  His bowl is set down first so occasionally a goat will come investigate and he'll have to run her off, but for the most part, they're kept seperate.  No need to invite a tense situation, IMO.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> So far today, he's been very good.  I stood outside and watched the goats play, which sometimes gets him wound up.  If the new additions to the herd start head butting the original herd memebers, he gets upset and breaks them up.  Today he was busy with his bone and he just watched and allowed them to be goats with no interference!


That's good news.  

We had a 'scrub' goat slip a fence and get in with our 'good' herd (and Ivan) and he played keep away.  He knew there was gonna be a fight, so got in the middle and kept them apart.

However, we brought a couple of yearlings into the 'good' herd and he accepted them right away.  

I frankly don't know how he knew the difference and was a bit concerned that he'd keep them isolated, but he didn't.  Seemed to know the difference somehow.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I'll go out this afternoon, feed the goats and play with Alex a while and then see what happens.


Keep us posted.


----------



## dianneS

Well, it seems like it was a pretty good day today.  Not one goat chased and no one slobbered.  

I went out to the barn at Alex's usual rambunctious hour and _tried_ to get him to play.  It was actually rather difficult.  

I did throw a few of his toys to see what would happen.  He did run after them, but only after it hit the ground and lay there for a few seconds.  He was like "hey, why'd you throw my toy over there?" and he'd run to it, sniff it, but not pick it up or retrieve it.  After about four throws of the toys he stopped running after them entirely.  He seemed to think it was a stupid game and I was somehow making him look like a fool.

I tried to get him to play tug with me and that was impossible.  If I got him to take a toy in his mouth, as soon as my hand would touch it, he would drop it.  So I can't play tug with him no matter how hard I try.

I did run a little to see if he would chase me, he actually would run past me and get pretty wound up.  It seemed like he wanted _me _to chase _him_ so I started pouncing at him, like a dogs play bow and he'd run around me and then take off and run a few laps around the pasture acting all goofy.  That was as wound up as I could get him.

I couldn't get him to wrestle.  He never once played rough.  I never had to correct him.  I don't know what to think?  I did wear him out though by getting him to run.  It didn't take much to wear him out either!

I gave him his dinner away from the goats.  He was able to wait more patiently for his signal to eat since he wasn't concerned that a goat was going to swoop in and take his food.

I ended up taking him in the goat pen where he lay down amongst the goats and I gave him a rub-down.  I think it was the most petting he's ever had in his life!  When I quit rubbing him, he'd shove his head under my hand for me to keep it up!  If he swatted me with his paw, I'd push him away from me.  He'd go take a nice calm walk through the goats and come back to me and I'd reward him with more pets.  Finally, he flopped over on his side and passed out!  That's where I left him.  He's flat out in the goat pen and its now dark outside.  I know he doesn't chase in the dark!

So I think I'll keep up this routine.  I'm just having a really tough time getting him to play!  I can hardly believe it.  Maybe I'll try again some time when he's really wound on his own rather than trying to get him wound up.  Over all, it was a good day.  I think there is hope after all.


----------



## ksalvagno

Since you have never played with him before, he won't know that is what you are doing. It will take some time for him to understand what you are doing. Hopefully if you keep it up, he will catch on.


----------



## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> Well, it seems like it was a pretty good day today.  Not one goat chased and no one slobbered.






			
				dS said:
			
		

> I went out to the barn at Alex's usual rambunctious hour and _tried_ to get him to play.  It was actually rather difficult.
> 
> I did throw a few of his toys to see what would happen.  He did run after them, but only after it hit the ground and lay there for a few seconds.  He was like "hey, why'd you throw my toy over there?" and he'd run to it, sniff it, but not pick it up or retrieve it.  After about four throws of the toys he stopped running after them entirely.  He seemed to think it was a stupid game and I was somehow making him look like a fool.


GOOD.  

That's exactly the response I hoped you'd get.  

It's the weirdest thing, isn't it?!?  Most dogs just 'get it' when you throw something...  They instinctively wanna chase it down and either play keep away or bring it back so you can throw it again...they get excited.

Not a LGD.  Not a good one, anyway.  A good LGD has literally no idea why you'd wanna throw something way over there when you could just as easily play with it over here..  To them, it's needless work.

Good, good, good boy!



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I tried to get him to play tug with me and that was impossible.  If I got him to take a toy in his mouth, as soon as my hand would touch it, he would drop it.  So I can't play tug with him no matter how hard I try.


That's good, too..  Ivan has been known to sorta guard things from me, which I don't much like..  With big jaws like that, I'd just as soon he drop something right away.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I did run a little to see if he would chase me, he actually would run past me and get pretty wound up.  It seemed like he wanted _me _to chase _him_ so I started pouncing at him, like a dogs play bow and he'd run around me and then take off and run a few laps around the pasture acting all goofy.  That was as wound up as I could get him.


That sounds incredibly familiar...like, I can picture me or my wife doing exactly the same thing with Ivan.  He loves nothing more than to get in your way and stop you, and when you get him really wound up good, he just takes off and literally runs laps.

So far...this is sounding really, really promising.  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I couldn't get him to wrestle.  He never once played rough.  I never had to correct him.  I don't know what to think?  I did wear him out though by getting him to run.  It didn't take much to wear him out either!


That's just it...they're big dogs, so they don't have the go-go-go power that a border collie or GSD would have.  They go in bursts, then they're more or less done for a good while.



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I gave him his dinner away from the goats.  He was able to wait more patiently for his signal to eat since he wasn't concerned that a goat was going to swoop in and take his food.


Excellent.  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I ended up taking him in the goat pen where he lay down amongst the goats and I gave him a rub-down.  I think it was the most petting he's ever had in his life!  When I quit rubbing him, he'd shove his head under my hand for me to keep it up!  If he swatted me with his paw, I'd push him away from me.  He'd go take a nice calm walk through the goats and come back to me and I'd reward him with more pets.  Finally, he flopped over on his side and passed out!  That's where I left him.  He's flat out in the goat pen and its now dark outside.  I know he doesn't chase in the dark!






			
				dS said:
			
		

> So I think I'll keep up this routine.  I'm just having a really tough time getting him to play!  I can hardly believe it.  Maybe I'll try again some time when he's really wound on his own rather than trying to get him wound up.  Over all, it was a good day.  I think there is hope after all.


Obviously I've never laid eyes on the dog, but from the way you're describing his temperament so far....I really, truly think he's just a young dog in cool weather with too little to keep him occupied.  

Keep wearing him out..  Keep playing with him..  Keep bonding with him..  By the time he's...say...two years old, I'd wager that you're not gonna be able to imagine life without him around.


Lemme ask you something else...did he 'lean' on you at any point?


----------



## Grillo

I agree with cmjoust,


Everything you describe sounds like LGD.  Especially the rumping, and that I think can be your escape outlet.  If you tend the goats (feed) daily, go and do your chores after a brief greeting to him.  He can follow and investigate around the place while following you, just so long as he's not bothering you.  When chores are done, try to entice him to rump, RUN around, slowly and make him rump like you described in your previous post.  LGD love to rump with tremendous power, I can see the muscles in my 13 month old flexing when she's rumping full throttle and she has a lot of hair on top of them.  After he's spent, you can feed him or give him a nice meaty bone to chew on for a good while.  I think he'll go to sleep after that and wake up and patrol all night long while the sheep sleep.  Good day.


----------



## foxywench

sounds like great steps forward so far.  WOOT!


----------



## dianneS

Well, its been three days and so far no slobbered goats and no chasing.  The new goats seem very comfortable with the dog now too.  

I've been _trying _to get Alex to play every day, but its really hard!  He's just not that into it!  He prefers that I sit down and just rub him and pet him, that's all he really wants.  That does put him in a more calm state of mind.  

He is being fed away from the goats, he has a spot where his toys are most of the time, and I offer him a bone when we're done petting.  He ususally takes it out to the pasture and lays down to chew it.

We're finally getting some warm weather, so that may have something to do with it.  But he's been really good lately, no problems at all!

He does bark in the middle of the night, almost every night.  I don't know what's out there, but once he gets started barking, he won't stop.  He would bark non-stop for hours, and has.  We have a neighbor close enough to us that with the leaves off the trees, the sound could carry and be heard by the neighbor.  I worry (especially on cold nights) that she may not only complain about the noise, but complain to the authorities that we have a dog outside in the cold 24/7 (not understanding what a LGD is).

About 4:30 this morning, the barking started, and he kept it up for about 20 solid minutes.  It didn't seem like he was barking _at _anything any longer, just barking, and barking, and barking, and barking, and barking, and barking...   My husband asked me how to make him stop barking.  Well, how should I know!  I went to the bathroom window, opened it and, I didn't even have to yell, my voice carried (and so does the dogs!) and I said "That's enough Alex.  Quiet now.  Everything's okay."  He shut up and I said "Good boy", and went back to bed.  He barked one more time and has been quiet ever since!  

I hope I'm not jinxing myself by speaking too soon, but things seem promising and are going pretty well for the time being!


----------



## ksalvagno

Hopefully things will continue to go well for you. Good Luck! 

Glad the new goats are fitting in too.


----------



## dianneS

Well, I spoke too soon.  We're having non-stop rain today, and I knew that was going to cause problems.  Everyone is in the barn today and sure enough, he bloodied her ears again.

He has his muzzle on, and I don't even want to look at him right now.


----------



## foxywench

well i would definalty say from what youve described it definatly sounds like "teenage bordeom" thata causing his rough interaction with the goats...
id still go with neutering and mabe on wet days you could spend some time in the barn making a fuss of him...

its furstrating when thigs start to go well then theres a sudden back slip...

i know lgds are known to bark once in a while into the night as a deterant, but mabe he is seeing/hearing things out there and feels the need to keep going on.  particularly if what it is isnt leaving the area right away...


----------



## dianneS

Things have been going pretty well with the dog.  He hasn't seriously hurt that little doe at all.  I just find a little slobber on her a few times.  I've caught him in the act, trying to mouth a little one, and I've scolded him each time I catch him.  Its discouraging that I'm still scolding him and he keeps doing it!

One of my new goats has decided that she doesn't care for the dog at all and she has really been bullying him.  I'm relieved that he has someone to put him in his place.  She also keeps him at a distance from the herd most of the time.  Only problem is, that he goes in the goat pen to sleep at night and she will corner him and really beat him up.  I don't want her to push his buttons so much that he has to defend himself.  I going to get him his own shelter, just outside the goat pen, and hopefully that will solve the problem.

The mobile vet is coming to vaccinate him and we will be making an appointment to take him into the office for his neutering.  So that decision has been made, he will be neutered.  Hopefully that will help solve a lot of the issues we've been having.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.


----------



## dianneS

Okay, so this dog does seem to show that he has good guardian instincts, he's just going through an adolescent phase and he's just playing too rough, he's not really aggressive.  Fine, I get that.

I've been in full training mode for quite some time now with him.  I observe him every day, correct his bad behavior, try to wear him out so he's not rough with the goats.  He has toys galore to keep him busy.

I have caught him in the act of chewing on baby goats several times now.  I have pulled him off of them myself several times.  I have scolded him very harshly.  Now more recently, if I catch him in the act, he runs away and cowers in a corner somewhere.  So he knows what he is doing is wrong.  But he keeps on doing it!!!

I have one big goat that keeps the dog in check when he gets too rough, she won't tolerate his behavior either and only allows him near the herd if he's calm and well behaved.  So now, he just grabs a little goat and drags it outside, away from the herd to chew on it!  Up until I run out there and catch him and the minute he sees me, he runs for the goat pen and cowers in the corner.

I can't contain this dog, he tears up every pen and destroyed whole sections of my barn trying to contain him.  He also barks 24/7 if he's contained or tied.  Tying him up is the only way he can't destroy anything.  If I remove the goat he's picking on, he picks on the next smallest one, and if I remove that one... and so on and so on.  

I am to the point now, that I don't really care if its adolescent behavior that he will outgrow.  I don't care if he's just a puppy.  That doesn't change the fact that he is hurting my goats!  I think he's got to go.  He is more of a threat to my herd than any preditor has been so far.


----------



## Roll farms

I think that I have to agree w/ you.

Maybe an adult dog would have been a better fit.

I never put mine in with kids so I don't have to worry about that aspect of it.   

I gotta commend you for trying so long and being patient...


----------



## dianneS

I emailed the breeder for more advice and she's telling me that the one puppy she did keep for herself is now chasing her smallest doe too, just like my dog!    

She has several dog and goat proof pastures and she is able to switch this pup with his father and put him in with all adult goats so he'll learn his lesson.  I don't have the ability to do that.

Most of my goats are miniature breeds except for one, an Alpine and she is the one that won't tolerate the dogs behavior.  I wonder if its the size difference, or the breed?  It seems like the pygmys and the nigerian dwarfs are just too tolerant of his bad behavior and they don't seem to realize that they should feel a little superior to the dog?


----------



## ksalvagno

Sorry it didn't work out for you. Hopefully you can find him a new home or the breeder take him back quickly.


----------



## dianneS

The breeder did not offer to take him back, and I think she wants left out of it at this point.  She's giving me the impression that its my problem now and I'll just have to deal with it.

I'm advertising him locally for free and I'm disclosing all of his issues.  I think he'd be fine with larger livestock, he just can't be trusted around little ones.


----------



## Roll farms

Where are you?


----------



## dianneS

I'm in south central pennsylvania.

I just had an idea of one more thing I'd like to try before I give up on him!  I'm going to give it a shot, and I'm back to contemplating the neutering thing.  Maybe I should give that a try first?


----------



## mnblonde

This has happened to me one too-that dog was dealt with immedietly-and i did not re~home her-that would be just giving a problem to someone else- JMHO
MNBlonde


----------



## dianneS

mnblonde said:
			
		

> This has happened to me one too-that dog was dealt with immedietly-and i did not re~home her-that would be just giving a problem to someone else- JMHO
> MNBlonde


What did you do with the dog then?


----------



## countrywife

Well, since you are back to trying again, just want to mention a couple things.

I have a 12 month old GP that is doing the same thing. He likes to play with the goats, and it is inappropriate behavoir. He hurts the little ones, not becuase he is attacking or meaning to hurt them, just that he is a dog, uses his mouth and is too danged big. It is adolecense. I bought a wonderful book before I got him, and it explains it well. Couple things you can and need to do- 1. he is not ready to be left alone with the goats. He will get bored, and look for something to do. Right now, he believes what he is to do is play with the goats. That is unacceptable. While it is true that thier instinct is to guard and protect, and they don't need to be "trained" to do this, they DO need to be trained to behave. And they are difficult to train for anything because they are independent spirits, its why they can live with the herd and not need humans. You can use a board on him, a shock collar, put him in a kennel, on a HEAVY duty chain (not weight heavy, just stress heavy) and then hot wire the kennel. When he tries to dig out he will get shocked, and the chain will keep him from getting under the wire fast, so he will get the idea quicker. When my GP is with the herd I am in the house watching. He gets out from the kennel ONLY when he can be monitored. He gets play time with our old German Shephard, so he thinks dogs play and not goats. He spends the night in the barn with the herd, but only with his muzzle on. If yours gets his muzzle off, muzzle him twice, put in him a stall that has been hotwired, next to the goats, but can't reach them, AND board him. There are things you can do but they take dedication and time, and you have to protect the goats in the interim. My boy is going to be a wonderful guardian, but it takes some age and maturity. As another poster said, these big breeds talke longer to mature. Please give him another shot, you can do this, and he can learn.


----------



## countrywife

I want to clarify one thing- I have said what I said becuase it is my impression from the OP that the dog is not viciously attacking the goats, only playing with them.

I had a dog that killed every single chicken it could get. When I removed her from the field, she broke INTO the field for no other reason than to kill chickens. She had to go, and she went. Any dog that purposely kills any other animal is NOT fit to be on a farm. That however, is not what my GP is doing, and I don't get the impression that is what this GP is doing.


----------



## dianneS

Countrywife, I'm glad to hear that you use a muzzle too, I haven't found too many that do, but it seems like a good solution to me.  So far, the muzzle is working fine and that seems to be all I need to do when I can't supervise.  I really don't need to contain him at all.  

The night I found him out in the dark with the little goat, he got the muzzle _and _tied to the tree that night.  I think he did get the picture.  It just bothers me that he does seem to realize that what he is doing is bad, but he keeps doing it anyway!  

My dog did kill two chickens, but doesn't seem to be the typical chicken killer type.  He did it because they got in his pen, but he never actually seeks them out and goes after them.  He's not even distracted or intrigued by them when he's right next to them.

The idea I had recently that I'm going to try out, is that his underground fencing, runs through part of the barn.  My husband stapled the wire to some over head beams so that the dog could still get inside with the goats and not get shocked.  I'm going to take it down from the ceiling and staple it to the back side of the goat pen wall (out of reach of goats!) down at ground level where it will shock him if he goes too far into the goat pen.  This will allow me to adjust the field width of the fence stimulation and if I want to keep him out of the goat pen altogether, I just turn the dial up all the way.  If I want him to be able to just get inside the door, out of the weather, but not get any further inside, I'll be able to do that too.  This way, he won't be able to corner any goats and manhandle them.  The goats will always have a safe zone inside their pen where the dog can't reach them.

That is how it works out in the pasture.  He can't pin anyone against a fence or corner them at all.  If he chases them to the fence, he will get shocked, 2 feet, 3 feet or 6 feet from the fence, however wide I set the field width on the fence.  It should work inside the barn too.  

Previously, I had made several little pens and areas where the little goats could squeeze in and hopefully be safe from the dog or even the bigger goats.  But that plan backfired.  Amazingly that big dog can make himself very small, and has managed to squeeze into the tiniest spaces with the goats and use those spaces to his advantage to corner them so they can't get away.  So recently I cleaned out the goat pen and opened every thing up so that they could run away and escape and not get trapped by him.  That hasn't worked either.  So hopefully by setting up the fence system like this and making a safe zone for the goats, it should work.  I'm also considering getting the dog a house for right outside the barn and dog proofing the goat gate so he can't get inside at all.  The barn will be a dog free, goats only zone! 

If all else fails.  I'll keep the muzzle on until he, or the little goats mature, whichever comes first!  I just don't think I'll be able to rehome him any time soon, and in the past, I've found that the most difficult puppies, turned out to be the best dogs!

I'm just worn out and frustrated right now because we have 28 inches of snow on the ground and there is 12-16 inches more coming down on top of it all!  You know how much harder chores are in just 10 inches of snow, and now I'm going to have more than three feet!!


----------



## Roll farms

Our old pyr died last month, I thought maybe if you were close....
But I really don't "need" another LGD...and it sounds like you may have come up w/ a good solution.

Best of luck.


----------



## countrywife

Last time my GP got a goat, hubby threatened to shoot him. Then I had to explain to my husband if he shot my dog, i would have to shoot him. It is frustrating, but I am with you. I will do what I need to do, but that dog is staying here. When he matures, he will be wonderful. And by the way, mine is neutered. Patience and vigilance, I think you will make it. We can have a "owners of wayward juvenile delinquent GPs" support group.


----------



## Grillo

I wonder if this is genetic.  I have two pyrs.  In fact one of them is not purebred, she looks just like a pyr but she doesn't have the double dews and her tail does not make the wheel, she lifts it into a sable when excited.  Anyway, the pyr cross is too playful.  She LOVES to play.  When I go out to the yard she's all over me, getting in the way, trying to get pet I just call her "rogona" (spanish for "needy")  Kira, the younger one, is purebred and while she always come and greet and will stay relatively close to me at feed time she never is trying to get petted, doesn't show any interest in playing with the chickens and takes her job as guardian very seriously.  The purebred did not see a chicken till she was 7 months, but after a couple of clear hard corrections when she tried to chase chickens she has been wonderful.  The pyr cross (Kiromi) who I have raised and trained with chickens since three months old (she's the oldest at 14 months) still tries to play with the chickens every now and then and will pester me and Kira to no end trying to play.  The purebred just turned 10 months and acts like a mature dog since she turned 8 months.  I wonder if this is genetic, I really like Kira's temperament because I hate dogs that are always at your heels trying to get your attention.  Anyway, the pyr cross will get spayed in a few months and the purebred will stay unaltered as possible breeding material down the road.


----------



## Roll farms

You can have an entire range of temperaments in one litter of pups...there just are no rules when it comes to animals, some will not fit into whatever mold they're supposed to.

It could be genetic, but it could also just be the nature of the beast, so to speak.

Same sex LGD, even when both are fixed, usually end up fighting (sometimes with a tragic outcome) by the time they're 2 yrs old.  You might consider keeping them in seperate pastures.
Females can be especially mean to eachother.


----------



## mnblonde

dianneS said:
			
		

> mnblonde said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This has happened to me one too-that dog was dealt with immedietly-and i did not re~home her-that would be just giving a problem to someone else- JMHO
> MNBlonde
> 
> 
> 
> What did you do with the dog then?
Click to expand...

i shot her-was the only ting to do-her "wireing "was wrong--she never really acted normal-she was a pry/akbash cross--thats what i was told-she was raised on a sheep farm-i got her at 12 weeks-she was manic-crazy playful and then suddenly morose and growly-a couple times she actually scared me-then she killed 5 milk goats and hurt 2 others badly  that was the end-she was about 2 years old then


----------



## dianneS

Grillo said:
			
		

> I wonder if this is genetic.  I have two pyrs.  In fact one of them is not purebred, she looks just like a pyr but she doesn't have the double dews and her tail does not make the wheel, she lifts it into a sable when excited.  Anyway, the pyr cross is too playful.


Hmmm... interesting.  My dog has a tiny touch of Pyr in him.  His mother was part Pyr and her owner had to re-home her for chicken killing.  The breeder keeps blaming the Pyr in my dog for the problems I'm having, since she had so much trouble with her Pyr cross, and had no trouble with her pure Karakachan.  I guess she figured by breeding her female to a pure Karakachan and the puppies having such little pyr in them, that the Karakachan side would prevail.

I do know of a breeder who breeds 1/2 Karakachan and 1/2 Pyr and she says that is what people are asking for.  She said the Pyr in them makes them friendlier and more personable, where a pure Karakachan is too aloof toward people.


----------



## Roll farms

I had 2 pyrs who've never harmed a chicken...you can't blame the breed.

There are no set in stone rules w/ any breed....every dog breed can have differences in the temperament.


----------



## countrywife

I simply think it is temperment. The GP book I bought before I got the dog says that poultry and the GP is a hit and miss. Some are ok, some are not. I find that in all the dog breeds. My GP is fine with the poultry, and they come in his kennel and literally walk all over him. My boy was barn born, to working parents, and has never seen the inside of a house. I was adamant about buying from working parents. I am beginning to think that people simply expect too much too soon, whcih is somethign else the book cautioned against. They GROW to be great guardian dogs, but they do have their developmental stages like all other breeds, and even our human children for that matter. You simply cannot get a LGD and throw it in the field and never look after it again, no matter what breed you use. There have to be guidelines, and you have to enforce them. I guess you could occasionally find a pup you could throw out there, but I bet they are few and far between. Now, I also believe there are simply dogs that are not made for farm life, no matter the breed. And you have to recognize that act accordingly. We have had a few pups over the years that just did not do well with the livestock or chickens. Sometimes, they just don't cut it. (no, I don't think  a book answers all the questions, but it gave me great info when I was buying my pup, and has been quite handy for training.)


----------



## dianneS

countrywife said:
			
		

> I am beginning to think that people simply expect too much too soon, whcih is somethign else the book cautioned against. They GROW to be great guardian dogs, but they do have their developmental stages like all other breeds, and even our human children for that matter. You simply cannot get a LGD and throw it in the field and never look after it again, no matter what breed you use.


I was fully prepared in the beginning to "train" my Karakachan, and had no intentions of putting him in with the goats unsupervised.  But the woman I got him from insisted that I just "throw" in in the field with the goats and he would know what to do!  I even spoke to the breeder of her dogs who told me to do the same thing.  They insisted that I do things this way, as if any training or confinement at all would somehow ruin him.

Now that I'm having trouble with him, the breeder is blaming the 1/4 Great Pyr that is in him, since she was able to leave her full-blood Karakachan in with the goats unsupervised from day one and he was fine.  Now she's telling me that the pup she kept from the same litter as my dog, is chasing her smallest doe too!  And she's blaming the Great Pyr cross and keeps hoping that the Karakachan breeding will eventually prevail!  I'm thinking that she just got lucky with her Karakachan and not all of them are that trustworthy from the start either.  I think that they all need some training.


----------



## Grillo

Just for the record.  My pyr cross is not a chicken killer, she wouldn't be here if she was.  She did dispatch 2 very small pullets when younger by literally licking them to death.  No puncture wounds or broken bones of any sort, but soaked in slobber.  She no longer licks the chickens and no longer bothers them in a real sense like when she was younger.  But she is very obnoxious in her play displays and will sometimes scare the chickens by moving too fast among them, which I really hate.  I fully expect her to be a competent LGD when she matures and every month she gets better and better as she approaches maturity.  But it was very noticeable contrast to the purebred, who despite never laying eyes in a chicken till 7 months took to guarding and leaving chickens alone in a matter of days after introduction and I fully trust her alone with the chickens while the cross is still separated and only allowed chicken time under supervision. Not because of fear of her killing the chickens anymore, but because she sometimes ends up running them off the chicken yard.

I don't think the pyr as breed can be blamed for playfulness because the purebred is just superb at 10 months old.  I really expect her to be an extraordinary guardian when she reaches full maturity.


----------



## dianneS

Grillo said:
			
		

> But it was very noticeable contrast to the purebred, who despite never laying eyes in a chicken till 7 months took to guarding and leaving chickens alone in a matter of days after introduction and I fully trust her alone with the chickens while the cross is still separated and only allowed chicken time under supervision.
> 
> I don't think the pyr as breed can be blamed for playfulness because the purebred is just superb at 10 months old.  I really expect her to be an extraordinary guardian when she reaches full maturity.


That must be what the breeder of my dog is thinking.  That is the Pyr cross, not the pure pyr that can be a problem.  But on the other hand I know another breeder who is having great success with Pyr/Karakachan cross breeds!  Who knows?    I was told not to breed my Karakachan with a Maremma for some reason, they seem to think that makes a "bad" combination?  I don't know where that came from, but it could be based entirely on one person's experience with one litter or even one dog, I have no idea.


----------



## countrywife

MY incredibly intelligent, perfectly behaved and reasonable GP just chased a group of army helicopters across his field. Do those fool soldier not KNOW the airspace above that field belongs to Boss??????? Yea, gotta love the LGD.


----------



## dianneS

countrywife said:
			
		

> MY incredibly intelligent, perfectly behaved and reasonable GP just chased a group of army helicopters across his field. Do those fool soldier not KNOW the airspace above that field belongs to Boss??????? Yea, gotta love the LGD.


That's fantastic!


----------



## big brown horse

That is funny!

Mine doesn't think wild birds are allowed at the bird feeder. 

Maybe I will start a thread on how happy our LGD's make us.


----------



## dianneS

Okay, I've had to keep the muzzle on the dog most of the time since we have all of this snow on the ground, no one is venturing too far from the barn and everyone is bored out of their minds.

This morning I was a little disturbed by my dogs behavior.  I took his muzzle off and fed him and the goats.  He finished his food and the goats didn't bother him at all.  Next thing I know I hear him barking and he's chased the goats away from their trough and is eating their food!  He was able to intimidate them to back away from their own food!

I thought LGD's would allow the goats to eat _his _food and nearly starve before he would ever show aggression toward his goats?  I know he should guard his own food, but I never thought he would try and take food from the goats?

He's done this before, but I was right there to stop him.  He was 20 yards away eating from his dish and he finished his food and the next thing I know he's lined up next to the goats eating goat feed and he starts growling and snapping at the goats to get them away from the goat feed!  I corrected him immediately, but this morning I wasn't right there to catch it until he had chased all of the goats outside of the pen!

His muzzle went back on immediately.

I'm concerned that my miniature goats are just too easily intimidated by this dog and they are letting him get away with too much, rather than putting him in his place like larger goats would.  I have one big goat that does pick on the dog, but he can intimidate the rest.  I wonder if my goats are just too small to teach him herd dynamics?  He's only going to get bigger.

I did post a classified ad in our local paper to see if I could find and absolutely _ideal _home for him.  If its less than ideal, I'll keep him myself.  I returned several calls today, and it seems as if no one has any knowledge of LGD's at all.  Everyone was just clueless and was looking for a pet or a playmate for another dog, or they think they are herding dogs and want to do agility and herding trials with him!  That won't work!  I guess we have to work through this some how.


----------



## adoptedbyachicken

How old is this dog now?  I had to keep a muzzle on one of my Maremma pups till she was almost 18 months on and off.  But in the bad stage it was on unless I was right there.  She too knew what she was doing was wrong, but she could just not help herself, play is too much fun.

The downside to that muzzling is the dog get frustrated and then is worse when you take it off.  I see that in your post.  Not the same dog but one I had to keep tied up for a while I'd take him off the tie and since I live on a really back road I'd run him on leash out the driver's window of my truck till he was tired.  Get the frustration and pent energy out of him then work with him.  He was a 7 year old rescue that came to me with no livestock background so I was working from scratch.  That dog is now my top guardian, but the day he came here he went for the livestock with full on having never seen them before.  City bred and raised English shepherd, the instinct was in there just had to help him find it.  If you do this take the dog in the vehicle away from the property first, then run them, if you do it right out of your yard your teaching them to wander.

Thing that happened to you I think is starting him with goats that he could play with.  The breeder was wrong IMO to tell you to put him in with kids.  He should be with goats that cant' hurt him true, so kids at first but once he could hurt them they should have been removed.  Now you have a habit you need to break, one that could have been prevented.  However they are creatures of habit and physically preventing him from doing this for a while will help set him straight.

I'd also spend time with him and the poultry.  I'd be very clear with him that they are not to be harmed.  Use this time for your general I'm the boss outlook on his life but also clear up any misconception about him mouthing anything live.  Ever.  You don't want to worry about him getting into the coop some day and playing there, or him killing any poultry that get out ever again.

It's icky but have you considered putting pine tar on the does that he likes to play with?  There is another product for poultry called No Pick that tastes horrible too.

My dogs don't get away with barking just because they are tied up, I stop them.  I'll try leaving them be so they quit on their own but if they don't I alpha roll them over.  These breeds have huge issues with confinement so be sure your making it somewhat a good thing.  I'd tie him for his feeding time for instance, and when he is done eating he can relax there for a bit.  I got an older Maremma and she needed to learn to relax on a tie, she panicked every time.  So I gradually let it get longer.  Sounds like your guy is not panicked though.

Drag training helps too, but again frustration can be the result.  It's a good go between till you can get the dog reliable when your not there.


----------



## dianneS

I don't think the breeder should have told me to put him in with kids either, but both breeders I spoke to assured me that he would just learn that his new goats are just smaller and he would still guard them.  He was fine at first, when he was smaller, but now that he's bigger than most of the goats, he's realizing that he can intimidate them.

The muzzle does cause him frustration, but the up side of that is that I'm able to get him to really run and play a lot when before I couldn't get him to run off any excess energy.

I have considered trying to put something icky on his doe.  I had to wait for her ear to heal though.  I have Bitter Apple spray for dogs, but never considered pine tar.  Poor little girl.  She's not only singled out by the goats, but also the dog and then to put pine tar on her... oh, the poor thing.

Strange thing is, that doe likes that dog and I always see her hanging around him.  She's the only goat that came here by herself with out another mate or two from her previous home, so she's always been a loner.  I think that's why she hangs out with the dog.  He thinks she's his personal play thing though.

The dog has his muzzle on all the time when I'm not there.  We have had too much snow on the ground to leave it off.  Everyone is cooped up and bored.  I'm all of this time unable to chew on anyone, may break the habit.


----------



## adoptedbyachicken

Well that no pick or pick stop it's sometimes sold as is good for wounds in chickens, it's to be applied both for the wound and the cause so maybe try that if your feed store has it.  Give him a small opportunity (short time) to make the mistake and find out then go out and muzzle him again.  Keep doing that, she only has to have it on when your willing to let him make the mistake.  Between breaking the habit physically and making her undesirable in a few memories you will be getting ahead.  Think too that each day he gets older.  I think some days with my dogs that's what got me through, thinking that!


----------



## dianneS

adoptedbyachicken said:
			
		

> Well that no pick or pick stop it's sometimes sold as is good for wounds in chickens, it's to be applied both for the wound and the cause so maybe try that if your feed store has it.  Give him a small opportunity (short time) to make the mistake and find out then go out and muzzle him again.  Keep doing that, she only has to have it on when your willing to let him make the mistake.  Between breaking the habit physically and making her undesirable in a few memories you will be getting ahead.  Think too that each day he gets older.  I think some days with my dogs that's what got me through, thinking that!


Well, since the snow is melting and everyone is finally outside a lot more during the day, I've removed the dogs muzzle every now and then.  I couldn't find the pick stop stuff, but I did have bitter apple spray and it is to keep dogs from chewing and licking wounds and hot spots.  I also have a product called itch stop, its for hot spots on dogs.  It has a taste deterrent and an antiseptic in it.  I put both of these products all over my little does ears and neck.

I removed the dogs muzzle for half a day first, then a full day, but put it back on at night, and yesterday he had it off all day and night!  He is wearing his underground fence collar once again (he had it off during all the snow and didn't even attempt to dig under the fence) so that the goats can have a "safe zone" around the perimeter of the pasture where the dog can't reach them if he chases them.

So far, he hasn't touched that little doe once.  He used to chew on her within minutes of his muzzle being removed.  I'm hoping that all those weeks with the muzzle on, may have broken the habit and the taste deterrent on the goat is helping too.  The little goat is getting bigger and fiestier and she isn't taking any abuse from anyone these days.  She's really managing well in the herd now and not getting pushed around, so I don't worry about her so much.

The dog seems to be maturing a bit.  His guarding instincts seem to be improving.  He really grew over the winter and seems to be more serious these days.  He can still be really playful, but he doesn't jump all over me anymore like he used to.  He knows when its appropriate to initiate play now.  Hopefully we're on the right track!

The only problem I'm having now, is barking!  If something sets him off at night (even if its me, and I let him know its just me closing the chicken house door after dark) he barks and barks and will not stop at all, ever!  He patrols his entire pasture and will bark for hours if I don't get up and yell at him out the window to cool it!


----------



## Grillo

Sounds like you're getting through it one step at a time.  I was afraid you were giving up on your dog too soon.  Almost every first time LGD owner I've known of (myself included), has gone through the trials you are.  My own 15 month old who still very recently "loved" on a chicken seems to be getting better.  A pullet got out of the chicken coop cause she didn't like the stags constantly topping her LOL and naturally wandered into the pen area (picks the grain spilled by my penned roosters) and this is the area where both bitches hang out most of the time.  Well what do you know, that young hen has been walking all over place for a week and neither of the bitches has bothered her enough to make her run off someplace else.  

Also, how many of you find the barking annoying?   Myself I sometimes move the oldest bitch to guard the lower area and she's barking right by my bedroom window and have no problems falling asleep.  I guess it depends on the person.  I also love hearing rooster crow all morning and day and others just hate it.


----------



## dianneS

Grillo said:
			
		

> Also, how many of you find the barking annoying?   Myself I sometimes move the oldest bitch to guard the lower area and she's barking right by my bedroom window and have no problems falling asleep.  I guess it depends on the person.  I also love hearing rooster crow all morning and day and others just hate it.


I worry more about my neighbor than myself.  I don't want any complaints.  She doesn't live that close to us, but I don't know how the sound carries?  The dog is in a pasture that sits higher than the nieghbors house and I'm not sure if the sound carries directly down toward her place or not.  

I won't worry as much when the leaves are back on the trees in the woods between the neighbor and our place.  I think the trees will absorb some of the sound.  Hopefully, the neighbor knows she lives in the country and she's just got to deal with barking dogs.  There are dogs across the creek from us that bark and bark sometimes, and I can sleep right through those.  But if its _my _dog, and I'm fearing a possible complaint from a neighbor, I can't sleep a wink!

Maybe if I explain to the neighbor that the presence of our dog will help keep predators away from her cats, she would appreciate him!  I think she's seen our "Livestock Guardian dog on duty" signs, so hopefully she understands.


----------



## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> I removed the dogs muzzle for half a day first, then a full day, but put it back on at night, and yesterday he had it off all day and night!  He is wearing his underground fence collar once again (he had it off during all the snow and didn't even attempt to dig under the fence) so that the goats can have a "safe zone" around the perimeter of the pasture where the dog can't reach them if he chases them.
> 
> So far, he hasn't touched that little doe once.  He used to chew on her within minutes of his muzzle being removed.


Hey, i have a question:  Is your weather warming back up, by any chance?

 

I ask because it doesn't take much sunshine to make a big furry dog in a winter coat pretty warm, and a warm LGD is a lazy LGD.  Remember how the cooler days and nights affected him, causing him to go a little nuts...spring will most likely have the opposite effect.

My prediction is that he'll mellow out this summer, then go a little wild again this fall...but not nearly as bad...and become what you might call a grown up next spring.

Which, of course, means you've still got about a year of puppiness with him.  Big dogs like this don't typially live long, so it seems like they extend the best part of life as long as possible....childhood.



FWIW, Ivan just turned two this past month.  As I mentioned to you before, there were times when we'd see him chasing and grabbing goats by the back of the neck and along the shoulders..  A couple of times, we thought we'd come out someday to find he'd mauled one till it pooped sideways...but no.

And at this point...I don't suspect it'll ever, ever happen.  I trust him implicitly.  

I used to just trust that someday I'd be able to trust him implicitly, regardless of his antics on a particular day.

I think you'll get there.


----------



## dianneS

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> dianneS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I removed the dogs muzzle for half a day first, then a full day, but put it back on at night, and yesterday he had it off all day and night!  He is wearing his underground fence collar once again (he had it off during all the snow and didn't even attempt to dig under the fence) so that the goats can have a "safe zone" around the perimeter of the pasture where the dog can't reach them if he chases them.
> 
> So far, he hasn't touched that little doe once.  He used to chew on her within minutes of his muzzle being removed.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, i have a question:  Is your weather warming back up, by any chance?
> 
> 
> 
> I ask because it doesn't take much sunshine to make a big furry dog in a winter coat pretty warm, and a warm LGD is a lazy LGD.  Remember how the cooler days and nights affected him, causing him to go a little nuts...spring will most likely have the opposite effect.
> 
> My prediction is that he'll mellow out this summer, then go a little wild again this fall...but not nearly as bad...and become what you might call a grown up next spring.
Click to expand...

I bet the weather does have a lot to do with it.  Its been near 60 here lately.  He is a lot more calm.  I have found a little bit of slobber on my little doe, almost like he gave it a try and the taste deterent put him off, so I think that stuff might be helping as well.

I've even taken his underground fence collar off lately.  I think we may have broken the, digging under the fence habit!

I'll have to inform Alex's breeder of this temperature/weather thing affecting these dogs behavior.  This is something she apparently is not aware of!


----------



## dianneS

Whoa.  Tonight was a close call, and could have been a huge disaster.  

Alex has been doing great.  Hasn't touched the little goat.  There has been evidence that he has "tasted" her, but apparently the taste deterrent that I've applied to her neck and ears is working.

I've even taken Alex's underground fence collar off, and his muzzle entirely for several days now.  He's not even barking excessively anymore when something sets him off, he knows to cool it when the threat is gone.  He's been great.  He alerted me to about 10 deer in the field tonight too.  

I let my chickens out of the henhouse tonight for some free ranging right before dark.  They were running everywhere.  I went to the barn to get Alex his evening dog biscuit.  When I got to his gate I saw he had ahold of something, under his paws, like he had pounced on something.  I screamed at him (not knowing what it was) and threw the dog buicuit at him (it was the only thing I had to throw, just a reflex).  He jumped back and a 12 week old chick hopped up off of the ground (unharmed) and ran out of the fenced area.  Alex ran about 20 feet away from me and flopped down and showed me his belly.  

I ran over to him, and couldn't really scold him because he did the right thing when I yelled, so I grabbed him by the scruff and just shook him a little to reinforce that "yes, that was bad" which he obviously already knew.  

I went back to the chickens, and several minutes later, checked on Alex.  He was still lying in the same spot and hadn't moved.  He didn't even get up to eat that biscuit I had thrown at him!  I went in the pasture and picked up his biscuit and took it over too him, he showed his belly again.  I just dropped the biscuit on the ground and walked away from him.  He remained in that spot for some time.  

I did put his zapper collar back on him, because had he been wearing that, he would have gotten zapped before he pounced on the chick, in theory anyway.

He came over to me and shoved his head under my hand.  I gave him a few pets, but not a lot of affection.  He did the right thing, but he was still bad, I didn't want to seem like I was rewarding him.  I just remained neutral for the most part.

I was really shocked at what took place, but over all, really pleased with his reaction to the whole situation.  I think he's catching on.  I am really impressed with how he reacted.  I'm just glad I was there to catch it.  Had I not been there, I think he would have killed the chick, but he didn't hurt it immediately??  Maybe he was going to play with it?  I don't know, he isn't completely mezmerized by the chickens most of the time, he'll look at them, but its not like he's ever totally focused on them.  I think I may be able to break him of the chicken killing too.

Things seem hopeful!  

Only one problem though.  The mamma hen has abandoned this chick now.  Either she thinks he's dead and has moved on with her life, or she doesn't want him around because of being such a liability!  The little thing is big enough to get around alone, but not outside the henhouse.  I'll just have to keep he/she indoors!  Poor thing.


----------



## Roll farms

I've never found a 'mauled' bird where the LGD are, or even when the house dogs get an errant chick from the brooder...they 'play' with them to death.   Slobber, yes...bite marks?  No.

(The Anatolian we had slobbered-to-death a couple guinea who were free ranging...they Pyrs have never bothered a bird.)

The chicks may even die of shock instead of real 'injury'.

And I agree, his reaction to your correction shows promise....

They are puppies, and what puppy could resist some little thingie running around like that...?


----------



## cmjust0

You did what a good LGD mama would have done, which is to see what he was doing and correct him.

Dogs correct each other pretty harshly.

I'm not what to make of him showing you his belly, though..  Then again he's young yet, and he's a different breed than we have.  May be nothing..  

Our LGD freezes when you yell and scare him...he's never shown us a belly, ever.  He knows not to show aggression toward us, but he doesn't have it in him to run or show any outward submission....so he just _stops_.  

I liken it to the software in his brain crashing.   

As for him laying off by himself, that sounds very LGD-ish.  They're very, very sensitive dogs, and they learn quickly.  I yelled at ours one morning out of frustration -- not good -- and then left the house in a huff without making up.  I forgot about it while I was at work, but the dog didn't.

When I got home, I went out to visit him and the goats..  He moved away from me like "Ok, boss..  I remember..  I'm not supposed to come around you anymore."  I had to stop and think about why he'd be doing that, and then I remembered.

It absolutely BROKE. MY. HEART.

I finally got him to stop and he went still, afraid I was gonna jump on him again...I petted and petted and petted and just loved on him as much as I could, and never have I seen a dog so relieved.

I felt like a real turd, too, because I knew he'd been out there all day thinking...."My master hates me."



It's just something you have to get used to with these dogs..  They're just really, really sensitive..


----------



## dianneS

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Our LGD freezes when you yell and scare him...he's never shown us a belly, ever.  He knows not to show aggression toward us, but he doesn't have it in him to run or show any outward submission....so he just _stops_.
> 
> I liken it to the software in his brain crashing.
> 
> As for him laying off by himself, that sounds very LGD-ish.  They're very, very sensitive dogs, and they learn quickly.


I'm not sure why he showed his belly either, maybe his software was crashing?  

I was pleased that he reacted though, because I didn't really harshly yell at him at first, since I didn't even know what was going on.  I was more like "hey, what the heck are you doing?"  He turned and looked at me and I saw he was holding something down with his paws and I yelled "no!" and threw a dog biscuit at him.  With the "no" he knew I was mad, and that's when he headed off and flopped over, ignoring the biscuit too!

In the past, he would have completely ignored me.  When he was younger, he had no knowledge or meaning of the word no, or any other yelling at all, it had no impact on him whatsoever.  So he is catching on!


I re-treated my little doe yesterday with her taste deterrent, and I'm pretty confident that will keep the dog off of her.  I thought he had begun chewing on the next smallest wether because I found that guy with pink on the tips of his ears.  I thought it was blood.  It was actually berry flavored Billy Block.   I have no idea how it got on his ears though!  (Who knows with that particular goat.  He is always getting into trouble.  He got pinned under a skid, before that, a piece of plywood and all the big goats jumped on top of it.  He's been stepped on by a horse and fallen in a bucket of water!  But he hasn't been chewed on by the dog!) That was a relief.

Alex hasn't been digging or excessively barking either.  He's becoming very aloof to visitors too.  He'll come say hello, and then he gets back to work.  He was lying in the pasture yesterday, just scanning the horizon, like a survelance camera!  I couldn't break his concentration when I called to him at all.

So far so good.  He definitely seems as though he is maturing, and that's a good thing!


----------



## dianneS

Things are still good with the dog.  He's been doing a great job.  No longer barking excessively.  He seems to know when to call it quits.  Hasn't touched a goat in months.

He seems to be getting along better with that big goat that was picking on him.  Now they seem to be almost playing together.  She was on a tree stump the other day and he was on the ground.  She kept acting like she was going to head butt him and he was "talking" and flapping his jaws at her.  Finally he just laid down in front of her and rolled on his back and showed his belly!

The baby goats that he used to rough up are starting to head butt the dog now too!  Everyone is getting along really well.  Even the goats have worked out their herd dynamics since the last three new ones arrived (I think the new additions may have had something to do with the dogs freak out as well).

I'm really pleased, once again, and for now.  I've even had some chickens get in the fence with him.  He eyed them, I gave him a warning, and he ignored them!

The weather has been warmer here, but its dropping again at night and we've had some cold rainy days, and the dog is still doing well.

My mini horse ran the fence lines with the dog the other day and wore that dog out!  The horses are in with the goats right now and the little horse and dog are kind of rivals.  The little horse used to chase all of the goats and the dog, but now that the dog is almost as big as the horse, that dog is keeping that little horse in line!  Its working really well.

I'm so glad that I didnt' give up on him!


----------



## Grillo

Awesome.   Once he's fully mature, god willing, you will have years of protection for your stock.  Nothing like having a big dog telling people and predators to stay away!


----------



## countrywife

Oh Dianne, I am so glad to see this! My Boss has been maturing nicely too. We actually got rid of what I believe was the "problem" goat- she just egged him on all the time. She would fight him for his food, harass him, generally was a not nice goat. So, I re-homed her. I found Boss yesterday morning in the barn with the 6 goats, we culled the herd this weekend, laying on his back, with his belly in the air, and all the goats sniffing him. I have just yesterday started letting him go without his muzzle at night, but still put him in the kennel during the day. Told the hubby last night that I think I am going to try without the muzzle at night, but leave it on during the day, and let him stay out of the kennel. We have also started almost daily letting our GSD in the field with the pup, and that burns ALOT of his energy. Boss met his first duck this week, and after being bopped twice on the nose, by the duck, he keeps his distance. My baby was 1 year old in January, so I think we are on the upswing. This has been the best thread ever.


----------



## dianneS

countrywife said:
			
		

> My baby was 1 year old in January, so I think we are on the upswing. This has been the best thread ever.


My boy will be a year old next month.  He's really impressing me now.  Like he did in the very beginning, before he went through his "teenage" phase.  It almost seems as though that phase is over.  

I never did have him neutered and he doesn't seem to be affected by hormones anymore.  No trying to mount goats at all.  He doesn't mouth the goats anymore either.  I even have at least one doe in heat, and my young wethers are going berzerk, even though they don't know why, but the dog is fine.

He's actually playing nicely with the goats.  I find him laying amongst them a lot.  The little ones lay next to him.  I do still treat his favorite goats head and ears with bitter apple spray about once a week, or if the weather is cool or rainy and they are all in the barn and he might get bored and start to chew on her.

I don't have a muzzle for him anymore.  Someone chewed it up!  I don't know if it was a goat or a dog, but the muzzle needs to be replaced.

It almost seems as if a switch was flipped in Alex's brain, and he just all of a sudden knows what to do, and what is expected of him.  His much more laid back, he doesn't jump on me anymore (he's tall enough now, he doesn't have to jump up!) he's not as aggressive with his food anymore, he's just very mature all of a sudden.  He's much more aloof as well.  He'll come say 'Hi' and then he gets back to work.  He barked at my husband the other day because my husband was carrying a chain saw.  That must have been threatening to Alex.  He's barked at me if I have a hood on, or something obscuring my face and I look suspicious to him. 

The rolling around on the ground and showing his belly to the goats is new, he never did that before.  He seems to want to play with them, but realizes that he needs to submit to them as well.  He's even getting along with my mini horse, and they used to hate each other!  

Its been almost like a miracle!  But I'm prepared if things go south again in the future and we go through another "phase".  I won't freak out this time, especially since now I see he really does have true guardian dog instincts.  I won't give up on him ever.


----------



## countrywife

dianneS said:
			
		

> It almost seems as if a switch was flipped in Alex's brain, and he just all of a sudden knows what to do, and what is expected of him.  His much more laid back, he doesn't jump on me anymore (he's tall enough now, he doesn't have to jump up!) he's not as aggressive with his food anymore, he's just very mature all of a sudden.  He's much more aloof as well.  He'll come say 'Hi' and then he gets back to work.  He barked at my husband the other day because my husband was carrying a chain saw.  That must have been threatening to Alex.  He's barked at me if I have a hood on, or something obscuring my face and I look suspicious to him.
> 
> The rolling around on the ground and showing his belly to the goats is new, he never did that before.  He seems to want to play with them, but realizes that he needs to submit to them as well.  He's even getting along with my mini horse, and they used to hate each other!
> 
> Its been almost like a miracle!  But I'm prepared if things go south again in the future and we go through another "phase".  I won't freak out this time, especially since now I see he really does have true guardian dog instincts.  I won't give up on him ever.


Yup. This is us. I could not have said it better myself. Something amazing I saw last saturday. The man came in the driveway to get the goats we were culling, the goats were at the pond, the dog was WAYYYY over in the field. He saw the unfamiliar truck come in, started barking up a storm. The ENTIRE herd of goats looked up, looked at the truck, and took off running toward the dog. All he did was bark, they knew to go to him. He stood in the middle of the herd on guard. Most amazing thing ever, the goats trust him that much, and just KNOW he is saying, "everybody, over here where I can protect you". Totally awesome cool. LOL


----------



## cmjust0

Our goats do that as well...run to the dog, I mean.  It's one of those things they just train one another on, and I agree...it's WAY cool. 

If you notice, though, it also happens in reverse occasionally...  The dog's laying off somewhere sleeping and all of a sudden the goats bolt and make a bunch of racket, the dog jumps up, and as the goats are heading _away_, the dog's heading _toward_ whatever freaked the goats out..  Once the dog gets past the goats to where it's between them and the percieved threat, about 99.9% of the time they'll stop, herd up tightly, and watch him investigate..

I think what happens is that, over time, the goats and the dog freak out at the same time over the same stimulus enough times that they begin to trust that when _one_ freaks out..._the other_ should probably freak out, too.  In time, it basically becomes a Pavlovian response..

Kinda like when you were a kid and your sibling ran full speed past you with your mom in hot pursuit..  You saw the sibling, then your mom, and you _immediately_ turned and ran right along behind the sibling because you just automatically assumed you were both in trouble on account of the rarity of one being in trouble independently of the other..



It's kinda funny to think of it that way, but seriously...I think that's sorta how it works.


----------



## cmjust0

Oh, one other thing...Dianne...it's not that he all-of-a-sudden knows what to do..  He always knew what to do.  

He's just starting to learn and/or lose interest in what _not_ to do.  

The seemingly overnight transformation, I bet, is because it's way less fun to chase goats and act foolish when it's warm out.  I suspect he'll get feisty again and make mistakes this coming fall, but not nearly so much as was the case this past fall and winter.

Then again...they're all different.  He may just be DONE with all that and all grow'd up at a year of age..

If that's the case...BREED HIM.


----------



## dianneS

Well, so far so good with my guardian dog!  The weather certainly has an impact on his behavior.  We had a lot of warm weather and then it turned cold again.  In the colder weather, he is more playful, but he seems to know what is appropriate play these days and what is inappropriate.

I think one thing that has had an impact on his behavior, is his new "playmate".  I was told by his breeder to put him in with some big bucks that would teach him a lesson.  Well, I don't have any bucks and all of my goats are dwarf breeds and too easily intimidated by the dog, except for one.  That big doe started beating up on the dog all the time, even biting him and pulling his tail!  But now they play together!  She really wears him out!  He runs at her and she head butts him and he thoroughly enjoys trying to dodge her horns.  When he's tuckered out, he'll flop over and show his belly to her, then its all over.

Alex has even been without his invisible fencing for several weeks now.  He knows that he's no longer wearing his shock collar and comes to the fence for attention, but hasn't tried to escape or dug any holes (other than the big one he lays in!)

I'm just a little worried, because in 8 weeks I'll be brining home two new baby fainting goats.  I just don't know how the goats will react to the dog?  I hope they aren't fainting all the time!  A lot of fainting goat breeders keep LGD's, so I guess they work well together?  I just hope I can trust him with these new babies.


----------



## GeeseRCool

You need border collies!   They protect all of our chickens and they are great at scaring away predators!


----------



## cmjust0

GeeseRCool said:
			
		

> You need border collies!   They protect all of our chickens and they are great at scaring away predators!


Border collies are typically herding dogs, not guardians.  If you have a border collie that guards, great -- but most aren't that way.

Most can't be trusted alone with small livestock.


----------



## dianneS

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> GeeseRCool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need border collies!   They protect all of our chickens and they are great at scaring away predators!
> 
> 
> 
> Border collies are typically herding dogs, not guardians.  If you have a border collie that guards, great -- but most aren't that way.
> 
> Most can't be trusted alone with small livestock.
Click to expand...

Right.  I won't let my sister's GSD anywhere near my livestock because I know she will chase them.

My LGD has two new baby goats coming home this weekend and I'm hoping all goes well.  It should.  He's been fantastic for the past several months now.  He has no electric fencing to contain him at all anymore.  I still won't allow him to come out of the goat pasture because I don't want him to think its more fun on the outside of the fence and start escaping.  He did get out the other day to grab a plastic milk jug outside the fence (a gate wasn't latched) and he went right back in to the pasture and laid down to chew on the milk jug!  He really seems to be interacting with his herd more now and enjoys playing with them.  He even likes the mini horse whom he used to hate!  The mini bites the dogs back, and it must feel good because Alex rubs up against the fence so the little horse can reach through and grab the skin on his back!  The dogs eyes practically roll back in his head!  He loves it.  My horse may get a hair ball though!  The goats are reacting to his barks now too.  He can bark at anything and the goats all high-tail it to the barn.  Its great.


----------



## ducks4you

GeeseRCool said:
			
		

> You need border collies!   They protect all of our chickens and they are great at scaring away predators!


Agreed!!  I have a 3 year old that is Husky/GSxBC--she behaves like a full-blooded BC!! She leaps like a BC, startles at noise like a BC, and is smart as a whip.  I never had one before, but she has made me a fan.  Good guard dog, gentle with the cats and the chickens, made friends with the horses--she grabs on their tails and tries to pull them, when she thinks I need help.  I imagine I'll end up getting a BC Rescue in the future, since "Rose" runs 3-5 miles a day on our 5 acres.  (I KNOW this because my eldest DD put a pedometer on her to get points for a video game, and in one afternoon she logged 3 miles just doing her job and playing with her "sister", "Pyg.")
I also know that genetics have a lot to do with it--YOUR DOG IS INBRED.  
SORRY, this IS going to be a RANT!!!   
Since we are talking about dogs, I suggest that you reconsider a pure bred dog in lieu of a mix, in the future.  SO MANY dog breeders can think of nothing but the dollars and they breed sick and lame animals.  You know why we have the technology for hip replacements?  It is because Veterarians have perfected it for purebred dogs who develop hip displasia before they are one year old!!  (Human doctors have borrowed the technology and techniques.)   Commonplace disability--THAT is despicable.  (The Vets suggest you wait until their 2nd b-day, so the hip replacement will last until the dog is about to die.  Meanwhile they suffer with terrible  UNNECESSARY  pain, until their surgery.  When I was a kid, I didn't know ANYBODY whose dog had a scheduled surgery.  Now, it's routine.)
MOST dogs in America only live until they are 1 1/2 years old (average) before they are put down.  In other countries, the police shoot the strays on the streets.
I am SO BIG on neuter and spay.  I have/have owned 4 dogs in my adult life (and 8 cats) and they were ALL neutered or spayed.
NEXT time, get a mix with herding dog in him _as a puppy _and make is dxxn clear that the goats are NOT chew toys!!!


----------



## dianneS

ducks4you said:
			
		

> GeeseRCool said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need border collies!   They protect all of our chickens and they are great at scaring away predators!
> 
> 
> 
> I also know that genetics have a lot to do with it--YOUR DOG IS INBRED.
> SORRY, this IS going to be a RANT!!!
> 
> 
> Since we are talking about dogs, I suggest that you reconsider a pure bred dog in lieu of a mix, in the future.  NEXT time, get a mix with herding dog in him _as a puppy _and make is dxxn clear that the goats are NOT chew toys!!!
Click to expand...

I'm confused by this post, who are you referring too?

Are you advocating pure bred dogs or mixed breed dogs?  My dog is a mix.  3/4 Karakachan (which is a very rare breed, hardly inbred yet in the states since there are only about 1000 of them in the world) and 1/4 great pyr.  I got my dog as a five month old puppy and he had been living and working full time with livestock since birth.

If you read this thread you would see that the other LGD owners were absolutely correct that he was going through a teenage phase and he's a perfect LGD now.  I'm so glad I didn't give up on him when he was going through his puppy playful, adolescent behavior because he has turned out to be absolutely amazing.  I actually think that he has outgrown his puppyness already at one year old.  That is one difference between Karakachans and other LGD's, they do mature a little faster, mentally anyway, but he does still have that great pyr in him, notorious for being puppies forever!  I have no regrets whatsoever about getting this dog, he's just amazing!

My dog didn't even come from a dog "breeder" just another goat farmer who bred her female so she could have some more guardians for her own property and she ended up with a litter of ten and had to re-home some.  All of the pups from that litter are doing great jobs as LGD's and my boy is outstanding these days!  I can't say enough how glad I am that I didn't give up on him!  Thanks to all of those on this forum who gave me such great advice and could relate to what I was going through, helped me to persevere and not send him off to the animal shelter!

Looking back now, it is obvious he was just learning the ropes  and needed some guidance as to what was acceptable and what was not.  Now he runs purely on instinct and is fabulous!  We may hit some snags again in the future if he goes through some more "growing pains" but the benefits outweight the risks at this point.  He has certainly earned our trust and respect... finally!

*and just another update*  My dog has no interest in the chickens at all anymore.  I've had several baby chicks follow me into his pasture, I gave him a firm warning and ever since then, if a chicken goes over to his side of the fence, he just looks at her!  Doesn't even get up to investigate!  He sees them on the other side of the fence all of the time so I guess he knows now that they belong here, he didn't understand that when he was younger, but now he gets it.


----------



## mully

dianneS said:
			
		

> He has been giving me a hard time about accepting new goats into his herd, and he is still chasing them (just when it seems like he's accepted them, he goes after them again!


Remember he is doing his job...If he is in with a certain number of goats and you introduce a new one he sees it as an animal that does not belong. You can not put a goat in that is new and expect him to say ..oh OK it just another goat... to him it does not belong


----------



## ducks4you

Sorry--glad you're happy.


----------



## dianneS

I just had another amazing incident with this dog tonight!  The gate to the goat pasture wasn't latched (my fault) and all the goats got out into the horse's small paddock (not goat proof fence) and the dog was loose with the goats.  That dog did not leave those goats at all, he stuck right with them the whole time and kept them in the paddock, he didn't let them escape further.  He was surrounded by free-ranging chickens too and didn't look twice at them!  I called to the dog and the whole herd followed him back thru the gate into the goat pasture where they belong!

The horses had made their way into the goat pasture while the gate was open (there is really good clover in there and the horse pasture needs mowed right now, so I left the horses out there for the night)  I am watching that crazy dog and my mini horse, who used to _hate _each other, playing together right now!  This is quite entertaining, I've never seen anything like it!  That dog is allowing the horse to bite the scruff of his neck.  It must feel good??  He pounces around my mini and the mini jumps around and bucks and kicks at the dog.  The dog flops down in a submissive pose a lot, that's good.  Oh!  Now the horse is chasing the dog!  Oh this is too much fun! I wish my camera was working.


----------



## TigerLilly

I just finished reading this thread from start to finish & I just want to say "Thank You" to everyone who encouraged Dianne to hang in there & offered advice. I say this because I found it to be an interesting situation & I learned from it.
I am also glad, Dianne, that you stuck with Alex & let him mature.


----------



## dianneS

TigerLilly said:
			
		

> I just finished reading this thread from start to finish & I just want to say "Thank You" to everyone who encouraged Dianne to hang in there & offered advice. I say this because I found it to be an interesting situation & I learned from it.
> I am also glad, Dianne, that you stuck with Alex & let him mature.


Yes, thank you to those of you who offered such great advice and support, I don't know how I would have gotten through it otherwise.

I am glad that I stuck with him and gave him a chance since he has turned out to be the dog I had hoped he would be.  

I just introduced two baby fainting goats to the herd recently.  Alex was leery of them at first and tried to separate them from the rest.  He got tied up a few hours a day to let the little goats get used to the new herd without being overwhelmed by the presence of a dog.  Thanks to the oppressive heat, Alex doesn't have the energy to chase the new goats, so the integration of new goats has been very easy.  They are learning not to fear the dog and have become part of the herd very quickly and with very little stress!  I'm very pleased.


----------



## meme

Neutering always helps! 

          .


----------



## meme

thats great.


----------



## CYGChickies

Grillo said:
			
		

> I'm not an expert at all, but I 've read quite a lot while raising two female great pyrenees, 13 and 9 months old.  To be quite honest, from what I've read and experienced, your dog is just acting like a juvenile/pup, which I know most all LGDs will do and will get over that as they mature.  Every now and then my 13 month old tried to play with my young chickens, which she grew up with (they were born when she was 4 months old) , and was corrected every single time, until she had her first heat.  After she got off her first heat, she began to ignore the chickens, except for a small hello smell everytime they meet.  I still don't give her unrestricted access to them but I'm very confident now that she's ready to take on her flock, full time.  Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that the pup is still learning.  As long as he's playing and not really attacking (prey drive) he's right on course, given that you keep monitoring and find a way to discipline for every fault.  I think you need to give him hell for misbehaving, no need to get physical, just yell, really YELL, pick up buckets and throw them in his direction and lift your arms.  When he crouches a little and tries to avoid you, leave him alone and start acting as if nothing happened and he's a good boy again, keep on doing your chores or act as if tending the sheep.  He will be "shamed" and if he's got an LGD inside him, his sensitivity and meer shame he went through will make the behavior stop, till he forgets again in a month(s)  Then you do it again.  As he matures, he will stop the play and you'll have a real LGD which will give you (god willing) thousands of nights of sound sleep knowing he's out there taking care of business.  But yes, training an LGD (not to play with livestock) to maturity takes a lot of time and a lot of patience, that's just the way it is.


I agree with the "puppy" thing and that shame is a huge driving factor for behavior control. We holler and point and if that fails we flip ours onto their backs and growl because that's what their sire did when he was teaching them as babies on the farm  and we wanted to continue a tactic that obviously worked. We have two pure Pyrs that are brothers. They're intact and not quite to a year yet. We introduced them to the goats right away and my Nigerian herd queen beat them at every chance. At first I stopped her but then I noticed them wanting to chase the younger goats so I let her go at them uninhibited. She taught them herself not to chase, mouth, bark at goats and they don't even offer to hurt the day-old kids now. Chickens they want to sniff and the chickens run and then puppy instinct says to chase which could lead to something ugly. I don't want them to get the reward or experience of blood from a chicken so I make sure all interaction is strictly controlled. When they are no longer pups THEN I will trust them more with the birds.

They have required no more training than teaching "no" and to come when called. Ours will walk--pouting--on a leash, will be wormed and given shots and examined by a vet without snapping. They will let us bathe, brush and pick ticks and burrs off of them with only a little protest and they will lay with the goats but also know that the herd queen is in charge. They even let our babies headbutt them and don't growl or snap. 
They've protected our silkies from raccoons twice and spent a day with our chickens that busted out of their run with only one incident of "over-interest" in a flighty hen. I haven't noticed any issue with hormones other than sometimes they will have hump fights. We don't have any female dogs so I decided to let them "develop" the natural way and go from there after they're full adults. Just be patient and remember if you want them to do anything besides kill predators (such as coming, walking on a lead, sitting, behaving in the car) you have to teach it. Also our dogs are socialized with us and our family and they still quickly notice strangers and menace them even as puppies.


----------



## Petty

May be the dog have tasted blood and is now out of control. The best measure is to take him out of the farm. Get another well-trained dog.


----------

