# Quick and easy cattle panel hoola-hoop house



## soarwitheagles (Jan 16, 2017)

Hi everyone!

We have been having large "atmospheric river" storms, aka, the pineapple express.  This has caused significant flooding at our ranch.

My greatest concern is creating a dry housing area for our pregnant ewes that are ready to drop their lambs any moment.  Our last five lambs born were all born in the rain, during large storms, without shelter.  After reading more articles, I would like to avoid having the ewes give birth in the rain, especially cold rain.

I usually like to take my time and do a good job on projects like this, but this week we are scheduled to have another "atmospheric river" storm, aka, the pineapple express.  The storm is scheduled to begin Wednesday.

I need something quick and effective, somewhat temporary.  Lean to's would need to be too large [over 20 sheep], so I settled on a cattle panel hoop house.  I see no other option for right now and we are in a bind to have a working solution before Wednesday.

I used 6x6 and 4x6 for the ground perimeter boards siply because we had a large number of them laying around and the cost was super low.  They are installed level and square.  I routered a 3/8" wide, 3/4" deep slot for the cattle panel to rest in.  I would like to stay away from using fence staples because this shelter is temporary and fence staples can be a bear to extract/remove.  I am using thick plumber's tape screwed in to hold the cattle panel to the ground perimeter boards.

Everything appears to be going well so far until I tried to secure the cattle panels up top.

I am curious if I could use my wire welder to "tack" the cattle panels together.  I am not satisfied with rebar wire securing the cattle panels together because it does not do a good job [way too much sliding and movement].  Tried zip ties and they were a joke.

I will install a "H-frame" on each end of the hoop house, then run a joist lengthwise under the top of the cattle panel to help secure the it.

I have some questions:

Has anyone here every welded cattle panel?  Is it even possible?
Any ideas on how to attach the tarp?
Anyone have any other suggestions?

Thank you!


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## babsbag (Jan 16, 2017)

I have never welded...don't know how.   

However, are you trying to attach the panels end to end? If so I would use the rebar wire and go diagonally. Or another idea... if your groove in the bottom is wide enough could you overlap the panels by one square and then use rebar wire?


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 16, 2017)

Thanks for your reply babs!

I tried the rebar wire diagonally, horizontally, and even double diagonal...all with the same results...once we tighten the rebar wire by twisting, the panels are no longer butted end to end...but are thrown out of whack...sure wish I could simply put a "tack" weld every foot or so...I would like the panels flush and tight so we do not rip the tarp...

A number of sites recommend using the foam for PVC pipe, then taping it at each joint, but that is much more work and significantly more cost too.

I am attaching a pic of the foam/tape version.


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2017)

I have gates that are stock panel welded to galvanized pipe that a friend made for me so I am betting that the panels would weld. 

But another idea...
How about hog rings? You would have to buy the rings and the pliers but once you make that investment it is amazing how much you will appreciate them.  Or 'J' clips like you use for building cages but I don't know how big they make 'J' clips.


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## greybeard (Jan 17, 2017)

I 2nd the hog rings suggestion. 
You will use the pliers again later..guaranteed.

But yes, you can tack weld the panels together, but why would you want to if this is a temporary shelter?


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 17, 2017)

Years ago, in another life, with a different husband - we welded cattle panels.  The end of the panel didn't coincide with a fence post so he welded the panel together.  That was probably 25 years ago and they are still together.


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2017)

Someone needs to teach me to weld. I have the welder but no one here is proficient at it so not learning from them. Need to check the college for classes.


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## Bossroo (Jan 17, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> We have been having large "atmospheric river" storms, aka, the pineapple express.  This has caused significant flooding at our ranch.
> 
> ...


That groove that you routed is a perfect environment for dry rot as well as black mold to form in due to rain and moisture from fog and morning dew. You could seal the timbers with water seal to minimize these issues.  On others , I would't rout a groove.   As for fastening the cattle panels to the base,  you could use small pipe fastener clamps, the ones that look like a question mark and has a hole for a screw on one side.


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## Bruce (Jan 17, 2017)

Good point @Bossroo. And though I don't know what "thick plumber's tape" is, I think I would also want something more structural holding the panel down if the wind picks up.

I don't think there is even a question as to whether or not you can weld cattle panels, they are created by welding right????

And I 3rd the hog rings. You can get those pretty tight and put them on a diagonal so they keep the panel from moving much either up and down or side to side.

How long/wide is the tarp and how long/wide is the hoop shelter? I ASSUME the tarp has grommets so you could use screws and fender washers to hold the sides down, especially if the tarp is 16' wide/long


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2017)

I have friends that drive t-posts in the ground and put the panels inside of those. For a temp. structure they don't even use wood on the ground, just the t-post.


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## greybeard (Jan 18, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I don't think there is even a question as to whether or not you can weld cattle panels, they are created by welding right????


Yep, but in the plant, a different kind of welding. Resistance to current flow creates the heat.  it is not like it would be done by any home or even local shop welder. No filler material is used in the manufacturing process--it's welded simply by pressing the 2 pieces together and passing electrical current between the 2 pieces, instantly fusing them together via the high temperature. A machine does it, welding all the joints in one line at once, then the next line of joints  joint moves under the electrodes and it is done--very quickly, with no sacrificial material.  At home, we would have to use a filler, either stick or wire feed welder to heat the joint to fusion temps plus add the filler from the wire feed or from the welding rod.

I used to have a single point spot welder, and it worked by the same principle as welded wire and panels, but just one spot at a time.
Here is a sample machine--they all work on the same principle. Action starts about 45 seconds in--you have to watch closely to even see the vertical stays dropped down and welded to the long runners. Blink and you miss them.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 18, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Yep, but in the plant, a different kind of welding. Resistance to current flow creates the heat.  it is not like it would be done by any home or even local shop welder. No filler material is used in the manufacturing process--it's welded simply by pressing the 2 pieces together and passing electrical current between the 2 pieces, instantly fusing them together via the high temperature. A machine does it, welding all the joints in one line at once, then the next line of joints  joint moves under the electrodes and it is done--very quickly, with no sacrificial material.  At home, we would have to use a filler, either stick or wire feed welder to heat the joint to fusion temps plus add the filler from the wire feed or from the welding rod.
> 
> I used to have a single point spot welder, and it worked by the same principle as welded wire and panels, but just one spot at a time.
> Here is a sample machine--they all work on the same principle. Action starts about 45 seconds in--you have to watch closely to even see the vertical stays dropped down and welded to the long runners. Blink and you miss them.



Greybeard,

The amazing world of automation.  I watched that video you posted and I can only say, WOW! 

Well, I am so sorry to say I had to stop all work on the hoop house due to one of the worst upper respiratory infections I have ever experienced.  Our sheep at this very moment are out in the 59F cold rain, and it is pouring cats and dogs [and sheep].  I think we are due to have more large storms until Sunday.  If it keeps raining this much, I will switch from building a hoop house to an ark.

Thanks for the input everyone regarding welding the cattle panel.  First break in the weather and I will do my best to "tack" the cattle panel every few inches on the inside of the hoop house.  My concern is the hog rings will not be able to keep the panel exactly straight...and I feel this is important if I am to avoid ripping the new tarp.

The dimension of the hoop house is 8ft x 12ft.  The height is approximately 6'6".

I just had a new idea, and I know this sounds funny, but I think I will cut down a Eucalyptus tree that is 3-4 feet in front of the hoop house and use it to attach my rafter beam.  The tree is nearly dead center, and I could cut it exactly 6 feet up from the ground and attach the center beam for the roof.  Should work fine.  I need something that will get the job done for the next five months.

Came home today to find all the sheep wet and cold.  Our Ag building flooded again.  Doppler radar is showing large swaths of red and orange...so we are getting hit hard again.  I wish I had built this hoop house much sooner...and I hope our flock will weather these next three storms until I can complete their hoop house...

Will post pics when weather permits more work.


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## babsbag (Jan 18, 2017)

Stay safe my friend, this is another bad one. My house faces due south and is getting pounded with fierce wind and rain. Can I start missing the drought?

Hope you get well soon too.


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## Bruce (Jan 18, 2017)

Priority 1 plans are always getting shoved to the side by something aren't they!

rest, fluids, chicken soup, antibiotics, get better!


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 18, 2017)

Feel better!


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## Baymule (Jan 18, 2017)

I just saw this, your hoop house looks good so far. Sorry that you are sick, I hate being sick. Add a lot of fresh ginger and garlic to that chicken soup! As far as your fears of tearing the tarp, I just had a redneck brain flash! DUCT TAPE!!! Get the air conditioning type used on duct work, it has aluminum backing. Position half of the strip on the edge of the cow panel, then fold it over on itself, sealing off the edge. That should work long enough for your needs and keep the tarp from ripping to shreds.


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## Latestarter (Jan 18, 2017)

Get well! You're animals and people need you! Just looked at the NOAA weather data... I really feel for you folks in CA right now. I thought I had water problems... you are definitely making up for missed rainfall. The only problem is too much, way too fast! Try to keep your heads and your animal's heads above the floods!


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 18, 2017)

You people sure are nice and friendly.  Thank you for your care and concern.

Poor Moo Moo, so wet, so cold...I very much wish I had my act together better after seeing his shivering in the rain this evening...

Babs, our power just came back on after a couple of hours of no power.  I have not experienced this type of wind storms and speeds since living up near the summit in the Santa Cruz mountains.  We have trees down here everywhere.  And I just heard the most horrible sounding crash, 300 yards away at one of our neighbors...I think a tree landed on her barn.  This is insane.  The news just said 56 mph at Sac airport, but I know the wind speed here has had gusts up near 70 mph.

Even though we carefully tied down tarps over the hay stacks outside, my wife and I had to fight the wind and rain this evening and install new tarps.  Lesson learned: I will NEVER store hay outside during winter months here again.  We lost a lot of hay already from the last storms [wet/damp, then the dreaded mold].  We thought moving hay/clover/alfalfa from the Ag building to a location near the sheep pen was a good idea.  Being a city slicker who grew up in Silicon Valley, this is a crash course on how to live on a ranch/farm.

So I have definitely had better weeks before in my life!

Now to keep things in perspective, I simply remind myself of the terrible suffering I saw in various nations in Asia, as well as various medical conditions I saw there where people could not even afford a doctor...and _suddenly, my massive Himalayan size problems turned into tiny little mole hills, barely even noticeable..._

It is so nice to have a positive perspective...


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## greybeard (Jan 18, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Greybeard,
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am so sorry to say I had to stop all work on the hoop house due to one of the worst upper respiratory infections I have ever experienced.  Our sheep at this very moment are out in the 59F cold rain, and it is pouring cats and dogs [and sheep].  I think we are due to have more large storms until Sunday.  If it keeps raining this much, I will switch from building a hoop house to an ark.



That same  (or a similar) upper respiratory illness came thru this region last month and into this month.  Everyone I know (including myself) got it and it hangs around for a couple-3 weeks. 
Doesn't seem to matter if one goes to the Dr or not--still same length of recovery from what I have seen.
Druggist recommended a product called Coricidin HPB over all others, and it kicked butt for me.  (The HPB part is for people with heart disease--you can get the regular stuff or the HPB stuff)  for me, it worked well.
https://www.coricidinhbp.com/img/products/maximum-strength-flu_l.png

good luck.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 19, 2017)

Thank you Greybeard!

I will look into the Coricidin.


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## babsbag (Jan 19, 2017)

@soarwitheagles, I have been doing this serious ranch stuff for almost 9 years and you will still find me out in the wind/rain taking care of something I thought was already solved. 

Here is an idea. If you pound three t posts in the ground on each side of the hoop instead of doing all the nice wood work you could throw up multiple shelters quickly and not have to worry about butting the panels together and tearing the tarp. 

I have a big barn, it is a fabric Clear Span hoop structure with open ends. We added a shed type roof to the front (south side) of the barn for hay storage and just for added protection from wind and rain. But we have an opening above the shed roof up to the top of the fabric structure and we have been fighting tarps to keep the rain out. We have some ideas for a permanent fix but no time right now and as you know we are getting slammed. The last band-aid did not work either and right now rain is pouring into the barn. The animals are dry, but it is making a mess. Fortunately the band-aid didn't fail until most of this storm was over. We will see what tomorrow brings. I can't get on the roof to fix this one and DH won't be home until Friday night.


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## babsbag (Jan 19, 2017)

Here is a very basic hoop house, they didn't even use t-posts. No center beam required either. If you are up to the task Thursday looks like the day before another big one on Friday.


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## Bruce (Jan 19, 2017)

Yes one must be careful with the generic term "duct tape" as most of us envision the gray stuff that apparently is good for many things but NOT sealing ductwork. The metal backed stuff is better. 

For all things "duct tape" I prefer Gorilla tape. Much stronger and it doesn't rot into bits of "stuff" in the sun leaving a nearly impossible remove hard fiber and glue mess. 

I would think if you put the vertical rods of the CPs on the inside, hog ring them TIGHT where they meet (I used slipjoint pliers in some cases when the hog ring pliers didn't 'reach around') and run Gorilla tape along the seam the tarp would be pretty safe. Make sure it is pulled down tight as you can so it doesn't shift in the wind and chafe.


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## babsbag (Jan 20, 2017)

I have been thinking about you during this last storm and hope that you are feeling better and that your critters are all safe. This should be the end of it after this weekend for a little bit. Looking forward to sunshine.


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## Baymule (Jan 21, 2017)

Hope ya'll get some sunshine soon!


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 21, 2017)

Thank you again everyone for your kind thoughts and words.  I am beginning to feel better, after chest x-rays, antibiotics, eye drops for an eye infection, and ibuprofen for the body aches.  I chose lots of rest, lots of fluids, and staying warm all week long.  Today, was a completely different story...

Woke up to discover one of my neighbor's 80+ft eucalyptus tree uprooted, and fallen onto our property, flattening the woven wire fence and barb wire.

So that was the first job.

Next, worked my bottom off standing in and working in mud on the cattle panel hoop house.  Now I wish I could change the title of my post.  I cannot honestly say it is a 
"Quick and easy" cattle panel hoola-hoop house.  Some of this turned into a royal pain in the butt.

My wire welder that has worked perfectly for decades decided it did not want to cooperate.  So it was re-bar wire to hold the panels together.

Next, I now realize I should have measured the tarp FIRST.  It turned out to be 1 inch short.  So installed two 2x4 rails vertical on top of the 4'x6' bottom boards.  Used flat head screws with fender washers to attach the tarp.

For extra support I installed an "H" post set up on the backside, a single vertical post on the front.  Then mounted a 4"x6"x16' beam for the top.

Kinda unusual, but I then added a 2x6 extension so I could stabilize the entire hoop house by anchoring it to a live eucalyptus tree.  I did not have time to top/cut the live euc tree, so I left the entire tree there for now.  My biggest concern now is that my neighbor's may think I am an illegal immigrant and call the authorities on me...

[Ok, I was only joking].

Large storm with 50-60 mph winds forecast for tonight and tomorrow, so this should be a really nice 24-hour test for our little hoop house.  I hope it is still there Monday, or at least I hope I can find the remnants of this hoop house within a half mile radius.

I still need to pile some more dirt on the inside and add some hay.  Hope to do that tomorrow.

Right now it feels as if every muscle in my body is aching.  Cutting up the fallen tree took energy.  I feel like I went to the gym for eight hours straight without a break.  So this was some good exercise people!

I am attaching pics of my newly titled *"Much longer work time than estimated hoop house."*

Have a wonderful day everyone!


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 21, 2017)

Goodness - what a day!


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 21, 2017)

Yes, a lovely day on the ranch.  On the brighter side of things, my neighbor just made me $300 richer with prime eucalyptus firewood!

Baymule,

Our soil is presently super saturated on every square inch of our property.  We still have a small river flowing through our Ag building for the last few days.  Tonight the river will flow even stronger.  Our pistol range is now 5-6 feet under water.  Later tonight and tomorrow we will have a strong rain storm with 50-60 mph winds.  So we just may make some more money on fire wood.  Never a boring moment here...


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## SunnyD (Jan 21, 2017)

I also agree with the hog rings! I use them for about everything now as a matter of fact last week I fixed the clip on my bibs with a hog ring. I secured the tarp on my "cattle panel chicken coop" by wrapping light fencing wire across outside of tarp about every 2 feet and attached them to the wooden frame on each side. You spent so much time on a great frame and all why take it apart?


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## SunnyD (Jan 21, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I have friends that drive t-posts in the ground and put the panels inside of those. For a temp. structure they don't even use wood on the ground, just the t-post.


 
Thanks for the tip babsbag! I would have never thought of using t-posts. A great idea for trellises and other projects.


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## Latestarter (Jan 21, 2017)

Hey @SunnyD  Welcome back! Hope you'll stay a while and post some! Visiting every 3-4 years or so, well, we can't really get to know you THAT way!   There are quite a few here now that are interested in heritage animals. Seems like that's something you're interested in. Hope to see you in the threads


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 22, 2017)

And thank you babs for the tips on wood or t-posts and thank you Greybeard for the tip on the hog rings.  I will definitely purchase some hog rings and the pliers and give it a try next time I need to build something like this.

I simply did not have the time to run to TS or order from Amazon...

Who knows the best deal on hog rings and hog rings pliers?  Please help me order the best deal.

Rain and wind has begun here this evening.  Let the tests begin!


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## babsbag (Jan 22, 2017)

The wind and rain is hitting me pretty good right now too. Hope it all stays together for you and I bet you are glad that today is over. Cutting up wood is hard work.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 22, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Hope ya'll get some sunshine soon!



Hopefully next week, beginning on Tuesday we will see some sunshine Baymule.  It appears to finally be a break in these "atmospherics rivers in the sky!"

BTW, we worked in the rain for most of the morning today.

*A quick reminder for anyone else reading this post that was titled, "A quick and easy way to build a hoop house."

I struggled a bit with this hoop house and it was not done quick and easy.  So sorry, but that's the truth!*

Babs had a much quicker and easier version of the hoop house earlier on in this thread...



babsbag said:


> The wind and rain is hitting me pretty good right now too. Hope it all stays together for you and I bet you are glad that today is over. Cutting up wood is hard work.



Babs,

The dopplar radar is showing you are receiving the yellow and orange levels of rainfall right now.  That can be quite strong.  But this storm appears to be weaker than some of the last storms...some of the last storms were showing red and it reminded me of monsoon rains in Asia...

So soory Babs, I have some really bad news...

Remember that last storm?  We had 70 mph winds in that last storm.

Well, during the storm I saw many of my empty bee boxes on the ground [as in, blown off the beehive stands].  I made a huge mistake.  I simply thought that  only the empty bee boxes were blown off the beehive stand.

I finally looked more carefully 1.5 days later.  I felt so sad.  Now I realize I should have monitored the bees much more carefully.

When I went to do my inspection I was shocked at what I found...

The high winds had actually blown off 4 of my large and healthy beehive lids...so, these hives were exposed to large amounts of rain for 1.5 days.

When I realized what had happened, I felt kind of upset too because I have worked so hard with these hives.

To be honest with you, I could not even bring myself to look inside to do a thorough inspection of these hives.  I fear I may have completely lost my largest and healthiest hives.

I will do a thorough inspection as soon as the rain stops which should be Tuesday.  You may want to consider ordering bees from other vendors.

I apologize and I am still shocked that the wind could actually blow off well seated, heavy duty beehive lids...

In the future, I will place either bricks or heavy pieces of concrete on my hive lids...


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## Latestarter (Jan 22, 2017)

Oh man Soar... that positively sucks about your hives  Really sorry that you lost them that way. I've seen quite a few folks who actually use those ratcheting tie down straps. Wind is a powerful enemy to hives, and of course once open to rain it's devastating. Hopefully all is not lost & later this spring you'll be able to re-activate those hive boxes with nucs from your other hives or swarms you're able to capture. With all this rain you've had I expect/presume that your forest is going to bloom better than you've ever witnessed. CA may have a spring/summer like they haven't seen in ages. It's hard to imagine the quantities of water that the state has received in the past several weeks.


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## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

I am so sorry about your bees. You have been so sick at a bad time. It can't be helped and you needed to take care of YOU, but it just came at a bad time. I hope you can get back on track with your bees. I read your posts about your bees and learned so much, you are a great teacher on bees!

Eucalyptus is a great firewood? I suppose so, doesn't it have a lot of resin or oils in it? The bark reminds me of sycamore, shedding the bark and exposing the light/dark of the new bark.

As far as best deal on hog rings and pliers, I just buy mine at the feed store and make sure that I never run out. It is amazing on what I can use hog rings for. I buy them several packages at a time and they seem to get used up on a regular basis. I love hog rings!


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 22, 2017)

Thank you for your kind thoughts.  Yes, I will either begin to use the tie downs or use large masonry bricks.  I am glad I was able to help people with their bees.  Raising bees has been quite an adventure too.  In February I was hoping to split hives, raise 200+ queens, and begin to sell lots of packages of bees with queens.  Now my dreams may have been crushed.  I will do a thorough examination Tuesday or Wednesday, once the rain has stopped to see how much damage was done...

Eucalyptus is considered to be some of the best firewood of all.  I was always told that oak is the best out here in California.  Then my wife and I cut 30 cords of the Eucalyptus.  I was shocked at how fast it sold and how high of a price people were willing to pay for it.  The part I do not like about it is when we must cut dry Eucalyptus.  It dulls the chain saw blades super fast [we have already gone through 35+ chains].  When we cut the Eucalyptus when it is wet, it is a completely different story...it is like cutting through soft butter.

This year we sold cords for $280-$300 per cord.  People drive all the way from Lake Tahoe to buy from us.  Here is what they tell us:

Eucalyptus burns super hot.
Eucalyptus burns super clean.
Eucalyptus emits a very pleasant odor.
Eucalyptus requires at least a year to season.

We have never had a complaint selling Eucalyptus and we still have a waiting list of people that would like to purchase more.  I simply have not had the time to cut more Eucalyptus.  Presently, I only cut if it is an emergency.

I need to take down another 30 cords of Eucalyptus because these trees are too close to our Ag building and I feel they are a fire hazard and a danger if they fell.  Now I simply need to find the time.

*UPDATE: the winds have reached over 60 mph again and the hoop house barely even moves, so I suppose we have success with the hoop house.  *

Thank you again everyone for your great ideas and help.  We appreciate you, your sharing, and your input.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 22, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> Oh man Soar... that positively sucks about your hives  Really sorry that you lost them that way. I've seen quite a few folks who actually use those ratcheting tie down straps. Wind is a powerful enemy to hives, and of course once open to rain it's devastating. Hopefully all is not lost & later this spring you'll be able to re-activate those hive boxes with nucs from your other hives or swarms you're able to capture. With all this rain you've had I expect/presume that your forest is going to bloom better than you've ever witnessed. CA may have a spring/summer like they haven't seen in ages. It's hard to imagine the quantities of water that the state has received in the past several weeks.



Yes, this has been a genuine bee disaster for us.  I hope the rain didn't kill all the bees in those healthy hives but like you said, they are probably all dead.  I will find out later this week and give an update.  Eucalyptus trees here bloom every two years.  But last year [their bloom year], it was incredibly dismal [less than 10% bloomed].  Hopefully they will bloom this year and we can harvest lots of Eucalyptus honey.  I have seen years when the bloom was so intense that my wife and I had to wear a dust mask for a couple of weeks due to the heavy concentration of pollen in the air.  The forest had so many white flowers that it appeared as snow had fallen on the trees when you looked from a distance.

You are right about the rain.  For January alone we have had over 10 inches of rain.  One reservoir, after three days of rain, received enough rain to supply all of Los Angeles for an entire year of water.  So this is a very precious time in California.  Most authorities are in agreement that Northern California is now out of the drought, whereas Southern California is still in drought.

This magnitude of rain will definitely cause a massive bloom everywhere.  What a miracle.  We are very, very happy about this.


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## Beekissed (Jan 22, 2017)

I'm with Babs....a quick and easy sheep shelter that can withstand up to 50 mph winds without a quiver, is a simple T post, cattle panel and zip tie shelter.  

Here's a small one but could very well be expanded to the any size one needs.   It was put up in less than an hour and taken down in even less time.


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## greybeard (Jan 22, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> *A quick reminder for anyone else reading this post that was titled, "A quick and easy way to build a hoop house."
> 
> I struggled a bit with this hoop house and it was not done quick and easy.  So sorry, but that's the truth!*
> 
> Babs had a much quicker and easier version of the hoop house earlier on in this thread...


For some of us, it is simply in our psyche or personality to tend to 'over-engineer' things, and to design for 'worst case scenario' rather than just everyday use.. I am very often guilty of this myself out of an abundance of caution after living thru so many Gulf Coast hurricanes. (I even allow for snowload on roofs even tho we haven't had more than a dusting in years) 

Sorry to hear about the bees. My b-i-l had over 100 colonies at one time and I helped build some of his boxes. He had a hook & eyelet latch (like wooden screen doors had) on each side of every lid as well as a cinder block on top.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 22, 2017)

Beekissed,

Super nice pics of a super nice hoop house.  Now I kinda wish I had built the style you and Babs have shown us here.  Well, hopefully I learned my lesson and next time I can build the expresso version.  We really did not need such a semi permanent version like I built...we needed something that would give 10+ pregnant ewes a dry place to drop and care for their lambs during the storms.

On the brighter side of things...the last 5 lambs were all born out in the rain during large rainstorms.  Then, the mama ewes kept their lambs out in the rain for most of the time.  I am beginning to wonder just how dangerous/risky it is to permit open field births when our weather is not as harsh as the northern climates...

I suppose that if I am to err, it is good to err on the cautious side.  I still do not feel comfortable seeing all the sheep totally wet, soaked to the bone and drenched for days at a time.  Maybe I need to get over thinking they need special care?  But nearly every book I read stated the ewes and new born lambs need a warm, dry, sheltered area.

*Here is a very strange fact: last year our herd had a warm, sheltered, dry, 5 star stable with hay bedding and all, yet we still lost two lambs to pneumonia and the flock had reoccurring upper respiratory infections that constantly required antibiotic injections.  This year, the sheep will stay outside without shelter for days at a time in the wet, cold, windy, and at times freezing weather, and not one illness at all.  How do I explain this?  I have no clue at all.  To me, this defies logic, medical science, and good reasoning.  If anyone can explain to me how our flock is healthier without shelter, and while hanging out in long, prolonged, cold, and even violent storms, please do!*

Scratching my head on this one...and if this type of strange stuff continues, I may not have any hair left at all!


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## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

What about deer, feral hogs, wild horses, moose, antelope, bison and other wild animals? They stay outside all the time. The strong survive and it seems most survive. Then we think our animals must be coddled, put in barns, pens, pajamas, kept out of bad weather...... then we are aghast when they die--after ALL that special care! I guess we are killing them with kindness. 

For your sheep, my best guess is that ammonia gave your lambs pneumonia and possibly going in and out of that nice, warm, dry, deep bedded barn into the cold was too much of a change for the rest of your flock. What do these huge sheep ranches with a thousand or more sheep do? It's not like they can put each ewe in a barn for her own protection...... 

My sheep currently have a 3 sided shelter that blocks the wind and rain, but it is not much more than that. So......do we baby them, hover over them, providing the highest level of care? Or do we let them choose where they want to lay down to sleep and rest, do we let them choose where to have their lambs and let the cards fall where they fall. Hard choice. I don't want to lose any lambs and I sure don't want to lose any ewes, but if we keep "helping" them, do we create a needy, can't take care of themselves or their lambs, flock of sheep? 

I really want a hardy ewe that can take what Mother Nature flings at her, one that can give birth and raise twins and stay healthy. But if I see one having a hard time, I will pull out the stops to help her. If I had a ewe that continually presented breech and had to have help with birth, I would sell her and not keep any of her offspring.


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## Baymule (Jan 22, 2017)

*If anyone can explain to me how our flock is healthier without shelter, and while hanging out in long, prolonged, cold, and even violent storms, please do!*

During hurricanes, direct hits, I gave my horses their choice of where they wanted to be. They had deep forest, creek bottom, a barn, or open field. They chose the open field, out in the driving rain, high winds and worst of the worst storm.


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## Beekissed (Jan 22, 2017)

I've always heard that you don't try to keep sheep in a barn as the humidity levels in the barn, created by their collective bodies, can cause pneumonia.  Sheep carry their barns on their backs and that wool is pretty waterproof and warm where it counts the most, so I can see with all clarity as to why they are healthier when born out in the weather than inside a barn in the same humid kind of weather.  It's called fresh air!


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## Bruce (Jan 22, 2017)

Along the lines of @Beekissed's thinking (and before I read her post) I was going to ask how big the 5 star stable was, how "closed" and how many animals? Maybe it is like a chicken coop with too many birds and too little ventilation? Sure way to kill your chickens with "kindness".

I'm not horse knowledgable but it isn't totally surprising that they would choose to be out in the hurricane. Open fields don't collapse on you, no trees to fall on you, you don't drown in a creek that becomes a torrent. Maybe they have some sense of the danger of "protective places".


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## babsbag (Jan 22, 2017)

That is sad about the bees, not just for me, but mostly for them and you. I hate losing hives, those are 'my girls'. Let me know what you find out this week before I start pursuing other bees in earnest. Most of the nucs aren't ready until April and that is just too far away to do my orchard any good.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 22, 2017)

Baymule said:


> What about deer, feral hogs, wild horses, moose, antelope, bison and other wild animals? They stay outside all the time. The strong survive and it seems most survive. Then we think our animals must be coddled, put in barns, pens, pajamas, kept out of bad weather...... then we are aghast when they die--after ALL that special care! I guess we are killing them with kindness.
> 
> For your sheep, my best guess is that ammonia gave your lambs pneumonia and possibly going in and out of that nice, warm, dry, deep bedded barn into the cold was too much of a change for the rest of your flock. What do these huge sheep ranches with a thousand or more sheep do? It's not like they can put each ewe in a barn for her own protection......
> 
> ...



Excellent reply Baymule!  Now I am beginning to wish I had not spent so much time and money on building barns/stables/hoop houses...

I will be honest with you...after doing extensive reading and speaking with local ranchers, I would never even think of leaving our sheep outside without shelter.  And now my paradigm is beginning to shift.  I suppose it is also important to remember most of our flock are the American Blackbellies, often considered the lowest maintenance sheep on the planet.

Strange as it may sound, not even one sheep has gone into the hoop house yet...not even during our super strong wind and rains last night and today.  My wife just called me over and showed me there were all the sheep, congregated under eucalyptus trees, resting and sleeping at 9:50 pm this evening.  They really are more like a deer or antelope rather than like a sheep in many aspects I suppose.

I am beginning to feel as if I have been a worry wart and all for nothing!

Baymule, you have given many things to think about and ponder regarding providing shelter for our sheep.  Thanks again.



Beekissed said:


> I've always heard that you don't try to keep sheep in a barn as the humidity levels in the barn, created by their collective bodies, can cause pneumonia.  Sheep carry their barns on their backs and that wool is pretty waterproof and warm where it counts the most, so I can see with all clarity as to why they are healthier when born out in the weather than inside a barn in the same humid kind of weather.  It's called fresh air!



Good reply too.  Yes, the AB's grow wool only during winter cold months and then shed it without shearing in the late spring.  I have never seen a sheep shaking from the cold, but I have often seen the lambs shaking when wet and cold.  Shaking is a sign that their bodies need more body heat...and they shake to generate the extra needed heat.



Bruce said:


> Along the lines of @Beekissed's thinking (and before I read her post) I was going to ask how big the 5 star stable was, how "closed" and how many animals? Maybe it is like a chicken coop with too many birds and too little ventilation? Sure way to kill your chickens with "kindness".
> 
> I'm not horse knowledgable but it isn't totally surprising that they would choose to be out in the hurricane. Open fields don't collapse on you, no trees to fall on you, you don't drown in a creek that becomes a torrent. Maybe they have some sense of the danger of "protective places".



Hi Bruce,

Our 5 star hotel is 20'x10'=200 sq. ft. and is three walls with ventilation too.  It is not enclosed and I believe people call it an open shed.

We have anywhere from 10-20 sheep that will use this three wall barn like structure.

I am posting a chart that I have done my best to follow.


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## babsbag (Jan 23, 2017)

Well your sheep are tougher than my goats for sure. One drop of rain and they head for the barn all the way screaming "I'm melting"; they are drama queens. In the summer they may sleep right outside the opening to the barn but in the winter they are in the barn pretty much 24/7.


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## Beekissed (Jan 23, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Good reply too. Yes, the AB's grow wool only during winter cold months and then shed it without shearing in the late spring. I have never seen a sheep shaking from the cold, but I have often seen the lambs shaking when wet and cold. Shaking is a sign that their bodies need more body heat...and they shake to generate the extra needed heat.



By raising the hair breeds you have more flexibility as to when you have your lambs, so why not have them drop when it's warmer out?  A good model to follow is to drop lambs when other ruminants in the wild are doing so...the graze is richer, so the milk is more rich for the lambs, one doesn't have to worry about cold weather being a problem, and you have to flush less when the pasture is more nutritious.  

Salatin has done studies that show that calves and lambs born later in the year, in the spring months, grow quicker and make more weight gains than those born earlier in the year, so the extra months doesn't really give those early livestock births an edge at market time in the fall.  There is also more profit in spring lambing as there are less losses due to the cold and wet found in earlier months.  

I never have figured out why farmers want to have lambs and calves when the snow is still flying...it just doesn't make any sense in any way.  It's hard on the mothers, on the babies and it's hard on the farmer and it decreases the total profit of it all, so why in the world do they do it?


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## Beekissed (Jan 23, 2017)

Baymule said:


> What about deer, feral hogs, wild horses, moose, antelope, bison and other wild animals? They stay outside all the time. The strong survive and it seems most survive. Then we think our animals must be coddled, put in barns, pens, pajamas, kept out of bad weather...... then we are aghast when they die--after ALL that special care! I guess we are killing them with kindness.
> 
> For your sheep, my best guess is that ammonia gave your lambs pneumonia and possibly going in and out of that nice, warm, dry, deep bedded barn into the cold was too much of a change for the rest of your flock. What do these huge sheep ranches with a thousand or more sheep do? It's not like they can put each ewe in a barn for her own protection......
> 
> ...



My sentiments exactly.  The first ewe I had lambing on my place I hurried to put her in a lambing jug as I was told to do...the other sheep were very distressed over it and she didn't like being separated from them either.  As soon as she had that lamb she was pacing to get OUT of there, so I let her out.  After that I resolved to let them choose where to lamb....sheep been lambing outdoors since time began and they don't need to be babied around.  Either they do well and live strong or they do poorly and die, but even if they needed too much assistance with lambing, I'd likely cull them, so either way I'd want the ones that lamb without extra help.


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## Bossroo (Jan 23, 2017)

Beekissed said:


> By raising the hair breeds you have more flexibility as to when you have your lambs, so why not have them drop when it's warmer out?  A good model to follow is to drop lambs when other ruminants in the wild are doing so...the graze is richer, so the milk is more rich for the lambs, one doesn't have to worry about cold weather being a problem, and you have to flush less when the pasture is more nutritious.
> 
> Salatin has done studies that show that calves and lambs born later in the year, in the spring months, grow quicker and make more weight gains than those born earlier in the year, so the extra months doesn't really give those early livestock births an edge at market time in the fall.  There is also more profit in spring lambing as there are less losses due to the cold and wet found in earlier months.
> 
> I never have figured out why farmers want to have lambs and calves when the snow is still flying...it just doesn't make any sense in any way.  It's hard on the mothers, on the babies and it's hard on the farmer and it decreases the total profit of it all, so why in the world do they do it?


The growing conditions that you describe are for parts of the country when you have rainfall in late Spring and Summer and therefore grasses to nurish livestock.  However, they  call California " the Golden State" because the hills and dales are a golden brown from April through  Nov. for lack of rain. When the grasses go dormant and turn brown , their nutrition content drops to next to nil. Therefore, Salatin's studies, books, tours of his farm, etc. apply to his neighborhood , but   DO NOT apply in the arid West.   A prudent livestock owner wants to have their newborns to be born just as the rainy season starts in late Nov. or Dec. to take advantage of new and nutritous grasses that sprout with the arrival of the rains. Those lambs, calves, etc. that are born in late spring / early summer will be FAR behind their fall /early winter born ones and will have to be fed purchased hay and grain and still not catch up. A waste of time and money.  Soar and others in Cal. ( arid West ) should have their ewes drop their lambs in late Nov. / early Dec. and not stress over their lambs being born in Jan. or even later. Practice good husbandry based on the environment that you live in, not on some guru's preachings.


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## Bruce (Jan 23, 2017)

Can't disagree with that @Bossroo.


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## Baymule (Jan 23, 2017)

It is good to read and study what others do, then do research for YOUR area and apply what works for you.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 23, 2017)

Beekissed,

Thanks for sharing!

I think you should change your screen name to "The Grim Reaper!"  LOL!

Ok, just joking, but wow, I would not want to be a weak sheep in your flock unless I deeply repented of every known sin and wanted to meet Jesus face to face real soon!

I perceive you are a firm believer and member of the survival-of-the-fittest club.  Nice thing about that is within a few short years you will probably have the healthiest and strongest sheep on the planet!

Well, I have good news for you.  A new lamb was born here a few hours ago.  His first test from heaven arrived a few minutes ago...a hail storm with 3/8" to 1/2" ice balls furiously pelted the the lamb for several minutes.  I asked the poor little lamb if he was sure he still wanted to hang out with us, but he did not answer...he was shaking so violently that I think he could not speak.

I am thinking of changing the name of our ranch to "Suck it up Marine Boot Camp for Sheep!"

In all honesty, I am seriously beginning to think I may have been babying these sheep and the babying needs to stop.

So welcome to boot camp sheepies!


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## Baymule (Jan 23, 2017)

Ok, maybe you should go save the lamb from being boinked to death by hail stones LOL


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 23, 2017)

GOODNESS!   I haven't seen hail like that in quite a few years!  So glad the little guy survived the pummeling.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 23, 2017)

Well, I am having fun with this thread and certainly learning a lot from all of you.  So thank you for sharing your excellent input.

FYI's for those wondering.  The lamb was wet with amniotic fluid when I did my daily morning check at 6 am.  I took the pic of the lamb around 4 pm.  Shortly afterward, thunder, lightening, and hail and the hail was hurting my ears so I ran inside a building.  Sheep just stood there and endured it.  I am hoping mama will cuddle with the new baby lamb because the lamb is shaking like crazy.  And for now, NO, I will not bundle the lamb up in a blanket, take it inside, and sing lullabies to it.  There must be a balance to all this...and I just hope I am not being to "hard" on the lambs.  I do not want to lose one due to being too "hard."  Time to toughen these little marines up for sure!

Regarding timing of births and all that. Booroo, you nailed it on the head.  From Oct. - May [with normal rainfall] we have enough free growing forage to feed 100+ sheep.  With proper management [thinning out the forest, wise planting, etc.] we may even be able to feed 200 sheep during the spring surge of growth.  So the best time for us to have lambs is during the rainy season.  Now that we are experimenting with perennial pastures, some of these numbers will change, but the best time for us is Nov.-April.  I do not time any of the births here.  Our goal is to achieve twins and/or triplets every 7-8 months, and I must confess, monetary benefits are one of the prime motivational factors.  My original purpose of purchasing sheep was to mow our fields and learn more about creating a self sustaining farm.  Now, after experiencing the costs of fencing, gates, labor, feed, hay, medicines, tractor repair, etc. I see each lamb not just as a lawn mower or a nice meal, but as a $100 or $200 dollar bill to pay our livestock bills.  We need to recoup our costs.  We also need to begin to make some profit otherwise the IRS will not look at this as a legit business, but, rather, as an expensive hobby.  And boy do I have many questions about tax angles...but I will save that for another thread.

Last, as mentioned before, I really do believe there is a balance in all this sheep care.  Last summer, during a heat wave, a ewe gave birth to twins.  When I found the twins, each was unable to stand, terribly dehydrated, and near death.  It was over 105f.  I quickly picked up both twins, ran them to a cool room, squirted water down their throats, and ran to TS for vitamin paste.  I kept both twins in the cooler room for hours, until they could get up and walk on their own.  I then returned them to their mama, watching carefully for the next several days.  I am thoroughly convinced both lambs would have perished within minutes if we did not take swift action in this specific situation.


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## Latestarter (Jan 23, 2017)

IMHO there is a fine line between "survival of the fittest" and unnatural climatic conditions leading to imminent death... You don't need to molly coddle the sheep, they've been doing this routine for thousands of years with little need for our assistance. However, that being said, there are substantially more lambs lost with the "all natural" method, and many of those lost lambs would have been quite marketable. When lambing occurs on a 105 degree day and maybe mom was stressed and worn out/dehydrated from birthing, I think most would say it's kinda OK for you, the shepherd, to step in and assist the lambs and keep them alive. I see this as even more acceptable when those lambs are being raised not to propagate and continue the species but as a meal for someone's table. When not breeding to "better the species" but to feed a hungry mouth.

Predation is natural as well, but that doesn't stop us from building fences to keep predators at bay. SOTF logic says no fence, and only the quickest to get to their feet and learn to run will survive, but do we really want to support the coyotes? You can provide them a basic shelter from the elements and if they feel the need to use it they will. It doesn't need to be a taj mahal... So maybe you no longer need to or should go "save" every lamb born, but for those few that actually NEED saving, I'd say do so. if only to aid and support the health of your wallet.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 23, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Ok, maybe you should go save the lamb from being boinked to death by hail stones LOL





frustratedearthmother said:


> GOODNESS!   I haven't seen hail like that in quite a few years!  So glad the little guy survived the pummeling.



I think this is a good test...

Remember, the last few weeks have been a quite the test for all livestock in this area...

I am posting pics of a cement boat I would walk on and fish from during my youth.  This week we saw the largest recorded waves ever 
in this area and it broke the boat apart.  Next pic, my neighbor's alfalfa field, under 3 feet of water this morning.  Nest, Dry Creek, which is normally dry or 4-6ft wide, is flowing like an angry monstor at over 100 ft. width in many areas this evening.  Last week it crested over its banks.  Last, our nice cozy and warm three walled shelter.  As of tonight, I am shutting it down.  No more mambie pambie's here!

We are raising Marine soldier quality sheep now...Hookah!


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## babsbag (Jan 23, 2017)

I have NEVER seen hail like that in CA. OMG those are huge. Those are the kind that damage cars. We didn't get any storms at all today in my area and I am ok with that. 

I did find some bees, but not until the Almond bloom is done. It is the same person I got mine from last year. I haven't 100% committed to him yet unless you think that I should. What say you?


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## Latestarter (Jan 23, 2017)

Hmmm wasn't saying save every sheep from a hail storm...  Was saying save a lamb or set of lambs that will die without help due to some unusual/mitigating circumstances, that would have survived had those circumstances not been present. But I wouldn't leave the flock fenced into a pasture that was about to be flooded with 6 feet of water from a 1000 year flood. Need to apply a little common sense. Pretty sure I said "unnatural climatic conditions leading to imminent death..." a hail storm doesn't qualify under that description.


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## Bruce (Jan 24, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Last week it crested over its banks.  Last, our nice cozy and warm three walled shelter.  As of tonight, I am shutting it down.  No more mambie pambie's here!
> 
> We are raising Marine soldier quality sheep now...Hookah!
> View attachment 26967



Do the animals never use the shelter? If that is the case, OK down it comes. But if they do voluntarily use it? 

I can't agree with "every lamb for itself" regardless of conditions. Putting in a little effort for an otherwise healthy newborn is a pretty far cry from "do anything and everything to keep it alive no matter the cost or the physical status of the animal". Wouldn't that go for the ewes as well? Have a lamb with a leg back, trouble coming out? Just let the ewe and lamb die, survival of the fittest? Surely that will guarantee a flock of ewes that only have lambs properly positioned every time right? I don't think so. 

And as @Latestarter said, it is a pretty bad business plan if you let your "product" die day one simply because it needed a little warmth and protection from the weather in the first hours. In fact, other than those you keep for breeders, you don't need to be particularly concerned about how long term "Marine hearty" the ones headed for the table are, they will be around for less than a year. If a lamb has congenital issues that make it "weak" and unable to survive by itself you need to look at the ewe and ram, they are the ones that pass on the "weak" genetics.


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## Baymule (Jan 24, 2017)

I think soarwitheagles is having a little fun with his Boot Camp for Sheep. With all the flood, mud, hail and general nastier than nasty weather, he needs to laugh about something.


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## Latestarter (Jan 24, 2017)

Most of the time I'm too literal...


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 24, 2017)

Baymule,

I am choosing to have fun  during all these strange and unusual weather patterns...if not, I might be carted off immediately in a straight jacket to the funny farm.  And that would not be any fun at all! 

I am doing my best to both learn and maintain a good attitude during all these unusual occurrences...I would like to come out of these experiences as a better person....yes, more wise, more knowledgeable, more understanding, and more sweet.  That sure beats coming out of this angry, bitter, mean, and feeling and looking older than I really am.  I have met and even worked with negative, mean, angry, bitter people in the past and they always appear to be the most miserable of all other people on the planet.  So I suppose attitude has an awful lot to do with how we "weather" different circumstances...  So, my greatest goal is to choose a good attitude and come out of this better.

Bruce,

Last year, the animals began to use the three sided shed during every rain storm.  They knew where it was, and headed to it during any significant rain.  The hoop house is a strange story...not even one hoof print since it went up.  Not sure why...

I have closed off the three sided shed this week because we have had so many storms that for the very first time ever, we smell the strong smell of ammonia...and it is nearly overwhelming.  It never even smelled like ammonia in the past [we diligently cleaned it], but now the smell is extremely strong.

I purchased some PDZ and tried it for the first time ever...all to no avail.  The smell is still overwhelming.

Everything is wet, wet, wet here...including the inside of the three sided shed.  I believe the three sided shed became super wet due to wet animals continually going inside after becoming wet outside.

We built the hoop house on the opposite side of the property of the three sided shed because we have recently split our flock for the very first time.  For now, I think we will simply let the sheep hangout without any shelter...and see how this pans out.  The last few lambs have all been born in the rain, took their first few steps in the rain, slept in the rain, ate in the rain, in short, have done everything in the rain...last year, I wouldn't even dare think of doing this...I thought it was a recipe for total disaster...as in losing our entire flock.

Here we are, wet as can be, yet no pneumonia, no upper respiratory infections, no problems at all.  This is all kind of an eye opener for me.

Special update: came home today and noticed our new born lamb is drinking from mama and looks healthy as can be.  The lamb is no longer shaking and tonight I just saw the lamb laying down, side by side with mama, so I think mama is keeping her warm.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 24, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I have NEVER seen hail like that in CA. OMG those are huge. Those are the kind that damage cars. We didn't get any storms at all today in my area and I am ok with that.
> 
> I did find some bees, but not until the Almond bloom is done. It is the same person I got mine from last year. I haven't 100% committed to him yet unless you think that I should. What say you?



Babs,

I was finally able to inspect and examine all our hives late this afternoon.  Totally shocking.  Remember, we had hive lids blow off and remain off for 1.5 days during the worst part of the storm.  Then, more lids blew off Sunday and I wasn't able to put them back on until Sunday night.  So these bees got major rained on.

Results: I cannot see any damage or dead bees in any of the hives.  I was convinced I had lost the majority of our hives...in fact, it was so painful, I didn't even want to look for a few days...too many things here went wrong.

I would still recommend you commit to purchase the bees from your seller from last year.  Remember, I am still fairly new to this, and I am not sure how soon we can begin the splitting/grafting/queen rearing process.  We must split before we sell any hives this year.  If this pattern of rain continues, I think it may push everything back a few weeks or even months.  Today was the first day the bees flew out of their hives in many, many days.

I plan on installing hook and clips as Greybeard mentioned on all lids to avoid this problem in the future.

Later this week, I will make 10-20 more swarm traps because weather permitting, swarm season begins here next week.  Have you placed any swarm traps on your property?  If not, why not give it a try?


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## babsbag (Jan 24, 2017)

OK, I will contact the other seller and get two nucs from him. I am happy for you that your bees made it through that terrible storm. I use straps on mine, not so much for wind but because of raccoons. I figure it they tip them over and can't get the lid off I stand a chance. I was in Yuba City today and mustard was in bloom in many of the orchards and it made me think bees.   I haven't tried a swarm trap but I should since I have a neighbor with about 10 hives. Do you use a lure and if so, where do you buy them?


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 24, 2017)

babsbag said:


> OK, I will contact the other seller and get two nucs from him. I am happy for you that your bees made it through that terrible storm. I use straps on mine, not so much for wind but because of raccoons. I figure it they tip them over and can't get the lid off I stand a chance. I was in Yuba City today and mustard was in bloom in many of the orchards and it made me think bees.   I haven't tried a swarm trap but I should since I have a neighbor with about 10 hives. Do you use a lure and if so, where do you buy them?



I really want you to be certain you have the bees you need.  I can not guarantee bees at this time, simply because with all the rain, I am not sure when I can split.

I made swarm traps last year but did not set them out until May.  We caught a good number of swarms.  But some of the master beekeepers told me swarms in our area begin in Feb.  They also informed me there is a massive 1000+ hive bee operation less than two miles from us.  I have never seen it or even heard of it before.  To be honest with you, I am setting swarm traps in the hope of catching feral bees.  Last year my queens mated with feral drones I believe and the offspring have been absolutely incredible: super strong, phenomenal layers, and extremely good at hygiene with the mites.  So I am leaning toward the scientific data that states localize bees will do better in our area rather than expensive specially bred bees from out of state...

Babs, if things do work out well here, I will still let you know and you can always add to your stock if you so desire.

Oh, and let's not forget...my bees can also swim! 

PS For the swarm traps, I used old comb, placed in super old boxes that I painted on the outside only, hung 10 ft. up in eucalyptus trees.  At first I used cheap Ebay swarm lure, and it worked really well.  Then I switched to Swarm Commander and it also worked well.  We also rubbed fresh lemon grass all over the inside of the box.

Hope this helps!


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## babsbag (Jan 24, 2017)

Getting them down from that tree must have been fun.    Did you rub lemon grass or lemon grass oil on the inside?  Does it help to put them up high like that? 

I have a friend that wants me to introduce her to keeping bees so maybe she can get a nuc from you if it all works out.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 25, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Getting them down from that tree must have been fun.    Did you rub lemon grass or lemon grass oil on the inside?  Does it help to put them up high like that?
> 
> I have a friend that wants me to introduce her to keeping bees so maybe she can get a nuc from you if it all works out.



We use a 10ft. ladder to put install the trap and take them down.  We rub the lemon grass on the inside.  Recommended height is 8-10 ft. 

Will let you know later about the nucs!


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## Bruce (Jan 25, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Babs,
> 
> I was finally able to inspect and examine all our hives late this afternoon.  Totally shocking.  Remember, we had hive lids blow off and remain off for 1.5 days during the worst part of the storm.  Then, more lids blew off Sunday and I wasn't able to put them back on until Sunday night.  So these bees got major rained on.
> 
> ...



Wow, amazing the bees made it through! 
When you get the hook and eye catches, get the kind with spring latches, they won't rattle loose.


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## Beekissed (Jan 25, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> I think you should change your screen name to "The Grim Reaper!" LOL!
> 
> Ok, just joking, but wow, I would not want to be a weak sheep in your flock unless I deeply repented of every known sin and wanted to meet Jesus face to face real soon!
> 
> I perceive you are a firm believer and member of the survival-of-the-fittest club. Nice thing about that is within a few short years you will probably have the healthiest and strongest sheep on the planet!





Latestarter said:


> IMHO there is a fine line between "survival of the fittest" and unnatural climatic conditions leading to imminent death...
> 
> Predation is natural as well, but that doesn't stop us from building fences to keep predators at bay. SOTF logic says no fence, and only the quickest to get to their feet and learn to run will survive, but do we really want to support the coyotes? You can provide them a basic shelter from the elements and if they feel the need to use it they will. It doesn't need to be a taj mahal... So maybe you no longer need to or should go "save" every lamb born, but for those few that actually NEED saving, I'd say do so. if only to aid and support the health of your wallet.



I never stated one should just put the sheep out there and let them live or die....I was commenting on the wisdom of putting them and yourself in needless stress by having lambs dropping in the worst weather of the year.  There's a huge difference.  

And, no, I'm not the grim reaper  I love sheep...but, yes, I do not mind culling hard to achieve a stronger, healthier flock.  That's called farming in years  and not in seasons.  If all you do is plan for the next season and how your flock will do in that next season, your goals are all short term and won't actually develop your flock.  A healthy, strong flock produces better and more lambs that make it to market....that's pretty much a fact.  

Vet bills, medicines, milk replacer...all these things cost money and often more than that lamb will bring at market.

I don't think it's too harsh at all to cull ewes that prolapse after lambing, have repeated difficulty with lambing, have other continued health problems, or have stillborn lambs.  Or even to cull lambs that had a general failure to thrive under optimal conditions.  It's just good business and it builds a better flock.


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## Latestarter (Jan 25, 2017)

From my reading, if you use the lemongrass oil, a little dab will do ya. Just a drop spread on the tops of a couple of frames. The bees will smell it and have to go completely through the hive to get to the source of the smell. Too much is not a good thing. Everything I've read also says 10' height for the capture boxes.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 25, 2017)

Bruce,  thanks for the heads up on those hook and eye items with the spring latches.  Will do!  And I agree...I am amazed the hives made it through that type of storm.  As mentioned before, the lids were off during the largest storm for 1.5 days.  I have no idea how they made it.  I will call and ask a master beekeeper later this week.

Beekissed, I apologize!  I was only trying to be funny by using the term Grim Reaper.  Is it ok if I use the term Happy and Grinning Ear-to-Ear Reaper?

Just messin' with you and I hope I did not offend you.

I like your idea of culling, and to be honest with you, I would like to begin culling...but not until our flock becomes significantly larger!  Here is a list of the sheep I would like to cull _and I do not mind if you call me the Grim Reaper:_

1. Sniveler sheep [we have a couple of adult ewe sheep that snivel and cry baby way too much and it is so irritating.  The other sheep are super quiet].
2. Ewes that have been giving single births for two years in a row [we would like twins and triples please].
3. Smaller framed ewes [we have some larger AB ewes, some smaller.  The smaller ones keep giving birth to smaller lambs that overall become smaller animals when they grow up and mature].
4. Rams and ewes that do not measure up to the AB standards [http://www.blackbellysheep.org/about-the-sheep/american-blackbelly/]
5. Mean spirited and ornery rams that head butt too much [we already sold him and he became roasted mutton for the buyers].

Here is our problem with culling according to my above mentioned categories:  We would lose half our flock or more!  So we would like to build up quite a bit more before I can happily fulfill the role of the Grim Reaper!  I would hate to fall into the category called, "No more left to reap because you culled too many too soon."

Beekissed, I must confess, I felt a little like a "Grim Reaper" every time I sold a lamb at Christmas time.  No, I did not actually slit its throat and watch it bleed out, but I knew full well each lamb had less than 24 hours to live after leaving our ranch.  Each one of those lambs were incredibly well behaved and super nice and I could not have asked for better sheep.  So in a way, I am guilty of slaughtering innocent lambs...

I hope you do not see me as hard-hearted, but it sure would be nice to have enough sheep to be able to cull and thereby improve the integrity of the flock!

Latestarter, we grow lemon grass here [it is super easy to grow], so we simply yank some off the plant, tie it in a knot, then wipe the entire inside of the box with the actual live lemon grass.

I hope we can post many pictures this year of captured swarms.  To the best of my knowledge, the Africanized Bees have not made it this far north, so we should be fairly safe...but I will continue to exercise caution with captured swarms...


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## Bruce (Jan 25, 2017)

I don't have a breeding flock of anything so I'm talking through my hat here but:
Is there much value in continuing to breed with the ones you wish you could cull for the stated reasons??

#1 I don't know if sniveling has a gene attached to it. If not, those would be worth keeping if they are throwing good lambs and at least twins. Ear plugs are cheap 

#2 My Dad and step mother raised sheep for some years and like you (and everyone else I'm sure) bred for twins. 

#3 Um, sounds like you are running in reverse with these girls.

I don't know how you improve a closed flock with those girls as the basis.

Would it be worth your time and money to sell the ones you want to cull and buy a few better girls? Might be a small step backward before great strides forward?


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## Beekissed (Jan 25, 2017)

Bruce, I agree.  I don't see the benefit in breeding culls as you may merely get even more culls and pretty soon you have a whole herd of culls, so you are right back where you started, having to take the herd down to the bare minimum to weed out the culls.  

Culling doesn't mean you have to thin the herd down to nothing...it merely means you thin out the bad, breed the good and even buy some to replace the culls if you feel they would benefit the overall breeding program.  One good sheep is worth two culls, so sell two and use the combined money to buy one better one...if she's any good at all, she'll have two more just like herself the next time she lambs, so you are ahead by one at that point.  You can make some pretty fast gains with hair sheep.  

Even if you have to cull the whole herd down to one ram and two ewes, you are starting out with something better than you had and those good sheep can multiply fast.  It's just as easy to feed a good sheep as a bad one, I heard one old farmer say.


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## babsbag (Jan 25, 2017)

I asked about the lemongrass oil as that I have since I use it in some of my lotions that I make, I don't have any lemongrass itself. I will put a few drops in and see what happens. Now to find a tree with easy access...meaning growing in a level enough area to get a ladder up to it easily. At my place I should just buy ladders with one legs longer than the other. 

Most people I know that raise sheep don't want triplets as the ewe often can't raise 3 and if they do try they are smaller to start and don't grow as well.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 1, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I don't have a breeding flock of anything so I'm talking through my hat here but:
> Is there much value in continuing to breed with the ones you wish you could cull for the stated reasons??
> 
> #1 I don't know if sniveling has a gene attached to it. If not, those would be worth keeping if they are throwing good lambs and at least twins. Ear plugs are cheap
> ...



Well said Bruce!  I am so thankful for the people here at BYH.  Once again, you have helped me think things through and discover there is a much better way to manage our flock.

So, here are the recent decisions we made:

1. Cull all animals that do not meet our criteria.
2. Ask our local ranchers to keep their eyes out for AB's that do meet our criteria.
3. Purchase AB's that do meet our criteria.
4. Live happily every after with a higher quality flock of sheep!



Beekissed said:


> Bruce, I agree.  I don't see the benefit in breeding culls as you may merely get even more culls and pretty soon you have a whole herd of culls, so you are right back where you started, having to take the herd down to the bare minimum to weed out the culls.
> 
> Culling doesn't mean you have to thin the herd down to nothing...it merely means you thin out the bad, breed the good and even buy some to replace the culls if you feel they would benefit the overall breeding program.  One good sheep is worth two culls, so sell two and use the combined money to buy one better one...if she's any good at all, she'll have two more just like herself the next time she lambs, so you are ahead by one at that point.  You can make some pretty fast gains with hair sheep.
> 
> Even if you have to cull the whole herd down to one ram and two ewes, you are starting out with something better than you had and those good sheep can multiply fast.  It's just as easy to feed a good sheep as a bad one, I heard one old farmer say.



Beekissed,

If only we had asked you one year ago when we began this adventure!  After reading your post several times, it made total sense.  So we have decided to follow your good advice [see our updated plan above please].

Thanks again for sharing and enriching our lives as well as the life of our flock!

*UPDATE #1 ON THE HOOP HOUSE:*

I leveled the floor, and made it ready.  Tonight we are suppose to see the beginning of another winter storm.  So we look forward to seeing if any of the sheep go into this shelter.  I think I know one way of making it appear more appealing...simply add a bed of hay?

UPDATE #2 New additions [see pic].


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## babsbag (Feb 1, 2017)

Those are adorable lambs, I can see the attraction; at least for me there would be as I like eye candy. 

I thought that you were going to get rid of the AB sheep and get Dorpers? (or was it Kathadins?) Weren't you wanting sheep that get to market weight faster?

I am hoping that this storm is "normal", a little rain, a little wind, and then gone.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 1, 2017)

Babs,

I was planning on getting rid of the AB flock...selling the entire flock, then switch over to the Dorpers.  But the problem is...I really like AB's a lot and can't at this time find the strength and desire to sell off the entire flock.  There is something about them that I really like...and I think it is their similarity to deer.  I am finding them such a beautiful animal, whereas [and I hope I do not offend anyone], the Dorpers to me are not as attractive.  So as you can see, I am in a bit of a dilemma.

For me, it is a battle between beauty and money...that plain and simple.  The Dorpers are a very nice sheep, but they always appear super dirty and the mama's do not care for their lambs like the AB's.  Also, I now have a clientele that thrives on the AB's.  They tell me the AB has little to no fat [but do have marble], whereas the Dorper meat is full of fat.

What to do?  One idea I have is to purchase a small flock of Dorpers from the auction [I know, most people say it is a very unwise idea], and keep them separate from the AB's, and simply see how they do in comparison to the AB's.  We only have 4-5 months left of incredibly luscious and free grass, legumes and forbs.  So I was thinking I may try to pick up some Dorpers this week, fatten them up, then sell em' come summer time.  My neighbor just asked me last week if I would put some of my sheep on his 10 acres of forest to clean it up...so that is a bit of a game changer...

I am now thinking of simply taking the risk.

Also, the second Dorper that I purchased from the auction 15 months ago as a baby lamb is so fat she can barely walk.  Her utter is huge and I am thinking she will give birth in the next day or so.  And here is an amazing fact: the Dorper/American Blackbelly crossed lambs are huge...yes, nearly double the size as the purebred AB's.  My rancher friend has resorted to cross breeding the AB with the Dorper for the last two years and now he is getting $200-$250 per one year old ram...and these rams are humongous.  I am only getting $160-$165 per ram lamb.  So, as you can see, I have a lot to think about right now...

Finally, as for this storm...our weather report is showing rain for the next 7 days and large amounts of snow in the Sierra's again.  Wanna know what I find both amazing and funny?

We are an hour or so away from Kirkwood.  Their season total for snow is over 32 feet!  Presently, they ONLY have 12 feet of snow!  And there are mountains in the Sierra's that are taller than Kirkwood!  Wow!  What an incredibly blessing!

Your Mount Shasta presently has 80 inches of snow.  In January of 2012 Mount Shasta had barely an inch of snow for most of that month...wow, wow, wow!  Drought is over!


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## babsbag (Feb 1, 2017)

I think that the snow survey this year will be just fine, if they can even get there to do one. The spring river runoffs should be pretty amazing and I am ready for Spring.

Not every animal at an auction is a cull. There are many ranchers that sell at auction as it is a way to get rid of a large number of animals easily and at one time. You just never know what you are getting, that is the scary part. But if you have 10 acres to clean up I think I would take the chance. You could buy a Dorper ram for next year and start your own crossbred flock.


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## Beekissed (Feb 1, 2017)

What adorable lambs!!!  I think, if the ABs are in your heart, they are what you should raise....sometimes a certain breed of animal/livestock hits you in the heart more than in the wallet and it yields more than monetary profit when you raise them...it's a partnership of the heart and will add something of value to your life.  That's the way I felt about the Katahdins and it's how I feel about the breeds of chickens I keep.  

I like your new plan and it sounds like you'll be moving forward now...I wish you all success with it and will be reading here to follow your progress!


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## Bossroo (Feb 2, 2017)

$200 - $160 = $40 profit ...  $250 -  $165 = $ 85 profit !   Easy to see the difference  per lamb ?    $85 x 10 lambs =  $850 extra profit...   Hmmm !


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## Bruce (Feb 2, 2017)

I would say "Gauge the market". 

You already have customers who prefer the ABs. 
The AB x Dorpers sell for more, is there a market for as many as you would have to sell yearly?
How much money (feed, 'medicine', etc) do you have to put into an AB to get it to market weight vs the cross? 
You mentioned the sale price for ram lambs, what about ewe lambs?
Regarding your neighbor wanting free forest clearing  What is going to protect the sheep YOU buy from the coyotes (wolves though maybe there aren't any there), cougars, etc?


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## NH homesteader (Feb 2, 2017)

Only part of it is financial. If you have sheep for pure monetary purposes then you'll make a different decision. I personally agree with Bee that there is more to it than that. I raise heritage birds that lay less eggs than modern birds. But I enjoy the breeds and find that they are hardier and do better with less intervention. If the AB is more enjoyable for you, I say stick with them or cross with a Dorper ram if you need more meat/faster growth. I would quit farming if I made all my decisions based on what makes the most money, because I would then be giving up most of the breeds I enjoy, and the non-financial benefits of them.


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## Baymule (Feb 2, 2017)

Sounds to me that you have the best of both worlds, pure AB's and Dorper/AB cross. There are customers for both, so go for it.


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## babsbag (Feb 2, 2017)

@Bruce, no wolves...Thank goodness.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 2, 2017)

Awesome replies again.  Wow, you people sure know how to get my brain churning faster and faster!

I am such a newbie to all this.  Remember, I grew up in Silicon Valley, surrounded by a cement jungle.  This is our first venture with livestock.

To be honest with you, I know next to nothing about selling sheep.  I had no clue what to do, so I placed an ad on Craigslist, and now I have so many customers calling me I am sending them to local ranchers [who are loving me even more]!  I have ONLY sold AB's because that is all we had to offer.  Whoops, I forgot...several of the sheep buyers also asked to buy our chicken so we sold them too.

Several of my customers mentioned they would not be interested in the Dorpers due to the fat issue.  Nearly all my customers are of Fiji, Pakistani, India, etc. culture, and I believe the large majority of them are Muslims.  They require the lambs be unblemished [we cannot even put ear tags on], and I think many are using the lambs for religious purposes.

I suppose I could find a AB/Dorper cross market quite fast.  California has such a diversity of people and I believe this makes the lamb market super fast.  I sold out as fast as I could sell once the lambs reached selling weight.  My rancher friend sells 100's per year, and he assures me NOBODY in this area can have enough lambs when Ramadan ends each year [Eid al-Fitr, also known as Eid ul-Fitr or Eid].  So I suppose it is safe to say the sales market in this part of the country is quite strong.

As always, each of you have given me a lot to think about and consider.  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and ideas.


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## babsbag (Feb 2, 2017)

There are times that I wished I lived closer to the cities as I know that I could sell goats to your market as well. I had one person that wanted to buy one and actually butcher it here as he had no place at his residence. He was Muslim and needed it unblemished in every way, no vaccines, no nothing.  I drew the line on that one as I didn't want to attract every coyote on the planet but mainly because I wasn't convinced that he was experienced enough to do it in a humane manner and I wasn't keen on having one of my animals suffer during a religious ritual where I couldn't intervene.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 2, 2017)

Babs,

Yes, I too have had many requests to butcher at our ranch and I politely, yet firmly refuse every time without fail.  One, it is a tremendous liability: what if they slip and cut themselves severely?  What if the animal jerks and injures them?  Far too great of a risk.

Second, there are certain groups that insist that the animal's throat be slit, then allowed to walk around untouched until it bleeds out.  I will not go into it anymore.  Suffice to say, I simply let people know I am not licensed or qualified to butcher or have any animals butchered on our property.  I also inform them it is against the law because I am not licensed or set up to proceed with such operations...

Nuff said...

Dang, whatever happened to that hoop house anyway?

Oh, there it is!  But still not even one sheep has dared to venture inside...


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## babsbag (Feb 3, 2017)

I never thought about the insurance aspect...good point.  My LGDs would be extremely upset if the animal was in any distress during the process so I won't do it for that reason as well. 

Interesting that the sheep prefer the rain. It is what it is, you can lead the horse to water...  At least no one can say that you are withholding shelter and therefore being 'cruel".  My goats would be in that hoop house so fast; they hate rain. But on a sunny day they would be ON the hoop house.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 3, 2017)

So amazing how animals differ in behavior.  Animal behavior science must also be amazing.  Wish I know more!


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## greybeard (Feb 3, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Not every animal at an auction is a cull.


I tend to disagree unless it is a dispersal sale. If it's breeding animals especially. (Intact males and all females) No producer sends a good animal to sale from their herd.
That doesn't mean there aren't quality animals available thru the ring, because one producer's cull can be someone else's prize acquisition. I've bought some nice heifers and even some older cows at auctions, but they came from herds that had very good genetics and the ones they were selling just didn't measure up to their higher breeding standards, but they worked well for my cow/calf operation, and I know a lot of people that do the same thing.
Generally speaking, (for most of the country) the worst time to buy livestock for replacement at the local salebarn is in the fall. Smaller farmers and ranchers are cutting back their stocking rates..deciding what they feel is worth wintering over and which aren't worth feeding the extra hay and supplement thru winter, and that's usually when you see the 'junk' stock run thru the ring. I will not buy an open cow from an auction in the fall.

Now, if you just want to background something for a few months, then run them thru again, auctions can get you where you want to be, if you have a discerning eye.
More and more people are buying lightweights, giving them some groceries and some good grass and making $$ on them without having to worry about a sire, birthing problems, etc.


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## farmerjan (Feb 3, 2017)

Greybeard, I can agree and disagree with your comments on "every animal at an auction is not a cull."  Yes, it may not meet my highest expectations so is a "cull" from my herd as far as a breeder....but then again, we are cow/calf, and we cannot even begin to raise all our good heifers as replacements since we would run out of room in 2 years.  That said, we are in the business to sell feeders, and  cannot afford to keep many of the good heifers.  Especially like this fall when we have a calf crop of over 75% heifers much to our dismay.
  One of the reasons we sell at the auction is to get a check that day once they are sold.  What they see is what they get, no guarantees.

Have been there, done that, with selling privately and had them not have enough money on the day they came to get the animal, have had bad checks from some people you would never have expected it from, you name it.  Plus the ones that come back 3 or 6 months later and complain that this is wrong or that is wrong or they thought this.  This after having some written sales agreements too.  If we were selling purebred breeding stock then it would be different, but just to sell commercial animals, the auction is the better place around here.
So many times buying at auction is not the worst way to go if you have some knowledge of what you are doing.  Agree that it is not for the unknowing,  but it is buyer beware.
That said, we have several guys that will come up to us, and ask if we brought animals in when they see us, because they have bought some of our calves in the past and have said that they did real good for them.  And this past fall early fall we did sell a big group of light weight (450) steers to a guy who said he would rather buy direct, so they don't have to go through the sale and get exposed to everything there, and we weighed and delivered to him, local, and they wrote a check right there and it was a good deal.  Hope to do the same this next year, but won't have near as many, again since we had so many heifers born.
We never buy an open cow at a sale, unless she has a calf by her side.  And after years of buying some bred heifers here and there, DO NOT buy any bred heifers anymore.  We have a neighbor and friend who breeds and sells bred heifers ever fall, usually about 75 - 100.  He is also cow/calf, and mostly keeps his heifers and then sells breds.  Has good commercial cattle.  And we still don't buy bred heifers.  First off we have our own;  second, if I am going to buy breds, they are going to be cows that have some idea of what they are doing.  And we do buy bred cows;  mostly at dispersals, but also some odd ones here and there that we think we can make a few dollars on down the road.  Especially in the current market with some bringing not alot over cull price.  Again, you have to know something of what you are doing....we often buy older cows, some with maybe a year or two left in them and have made a bit over the years.  Lost a few too, but you can lose a 2000 heifer too.
We went through the learning curve, and still don't always get it right every time now, but we are still in it....


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## babsbag (Feb 3, 2017)

@greybeard @farmerjan just said the same thing that I was going to say about dairy goats. I have a lot of friends that take their bumper kid crop and sometimes their does and bucks to the auction. They simply have too many animals and the market can only absorb so many goats. If they are heavy into the show circuit they will take a doe that maybe only has 1/2 an udder, or a buck whose genetics they are done with.  The animals are healthy and well cared for and still produce but just not for them. Sometimes getting rid of them, even at auction, is better than keeping them on the feed bill.


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## greybeard (Feb 3, 2017)

Yep--there's a hundred different reasons at any given time for selecting what to keep and what to sell. 
Cull doesn't have to mean the animal is only good for the grinder. It all depends how high the bar is set for any seller and what he's basing his culling on. Sometimes it's genetics driven (epd stuff--weaning weight/daily rate of gain/milk #s for instance)--often, it's just phenotype driven--the seller doesn't like the hair color or pattern.  
Even if it's just a matter of being overstocked, the seller still is usually  keeping his best stock and getting rid of the lower echelon stuff.

If I had a good running and good looking Ford and the same condition Caddy, and only wanted to keep one car, I'd probably sell the Ford and keep the cadillac. The Ford would make someone a great car that wanted a Ford, but it's still a cull.


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## babsbag (Feb 3, 2017)

My personal issue with buying at auction is that it is a crap shoot. I do know people that do send their sick or inferior animals, and that is all they send to auction.

I have one friend in particular that takes all of her kids and her adult animals when she is done with them to auction. She doesn't want to deal with private treaty sales and she usually is strapped for cash and the auction pays quickly. She sells the kids at weaning, she only keeps one if her children become ultra attached for some reason. I have bought some very nice goats from her, ADGA registered, clean, and tested. If I hadn't wanted them for the dairy they would have gone to auction. I know of least 4 people others that do the same. Many hobby breeders don't keep the kids as you start to have line breeding issues so they are either selling kids, does, or bucks. They buy replacements from outside of their herd to get the genetic diversity that they want.  Disposable livestock.


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## Bruce (Feb 3, 2017)

@soarwitheagles I was going to say something similar to @babsbag. With the ethnic background of your lamb buyers, I bet you could sell a ton of goats as well! And they would likely be a better choice for clearing your neighbor's 10 acres (assuming nothing ate THEM).


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## farmerjan (Feb 3, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Yep--there's a hundred different reasons at any given time for selecting what to keep and what to sell.
> Cull doesn't have to mean the animal is only good for the grinder. It all depends how high the bar is set for any seller and what he's basing his culling on. Sometimes it's genetics driven (epd stuff--weaning weight/daily rate of gain/milk #s for instance)--often, it's just phenotype driven--the seller doesn't like the hair color or pattern.
> Even if it's just a matter of being overstocked, the seller still is usually  keeping his best stock and getting rid of the lower echelon stuff.
> 
> If I had a good running and good looking Ford and the same condition Caddy, and only wanted to keep one car, I'd probably sell the Ford and keep the cadillac. The Ford would make someone a great car that wanted a Ford, but it's still a cull.



Sorry, I would sell the caddy in a NY minute and keep the Ford.....


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## greybeard (Feb 3, 2017)

babsbag said:


> My personal issue with buying at auction is that it is a crap shoot


Always. _caveat emptor _

I try to be honest in my dealings, but understand, that the minute $$ changes hands and the animal is in my trailer, it's MY animal. If it dies on the way home, all I know is it's MY cow that died. I sold a good looking 4 yr old bull a few years ago at auction--he couldn't or wouldn't do his job. I hand delivered a note to the auctioneer that he was being sold to go straight to slaughter--no back-to-farm sale. Auctioneer gave me a dirty look about it because that cut into their commission, but he still brought me $1840 at slaughter price.


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## Bruce (Feb 3, 2017)

Pretty sad. The almighty greed when you were making sure no one got screwed over. At least the auctioneer DID do HIS job


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## farmerjan (Feb 3, 2017)

We sold some cull cows last week.  All were open (not preg when checked) and they put it on the weight ticket and announced it.  Also sold 2, of the 14 heifers, that were not Preg, and that was announced too.  Feed lots that finish them prefer that they are open so they don't have to abort them...so it actually helped a bit.  I won't sell an animal and misrepresent it.  But  I am not going to announce every little thing that is /was wrong with them either.  As @greybeard has said,  it is buyer beware....We also had a bull that started shooting blanks after 5 years of using him...all of a sudden no good.  Had that announced so that someone needing a bull would not take him home, unknowing that he was bad.  Most older ones like him are "killer" bulls anyway.  @greybeards 4 yr old would have been a good one to take back to the farm if no one knew so glad that they did the right thing.


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## greybeard (Feb 3, 2017)

Here, they only preg check if the seller requests it when they are dropped off. They put 2 stickers or paint marks on the animal's side. One is the age in years and the other is the approx # of months they  have been bred (as determined by the staff vet). If there's just one sticker or marker, it means they are open or not checked. 
Weighing is done as they exit the ring.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 4, 2017)

Well, went to the auction prepared to buy...and there were over 500 sheep to choose from...

Over 300 Suffolk.  Suffolk lambs weighing in at 70lb+ were consistently going for $150.  And the lambs were absolutely beautiful and appeared super healthy.  Large Suffolk ewes, $180-$210.  Old Suffolk ewes that were huge were selling for $30.  Various varieties going from anywhere up to $230 [Merino sheep] and American Blackbellies were going for $80.  Who can guess how many sheep I purchased?

Zero.  When I saw the 300 lb adult Suffolk sheep, I immediately realized that is NOT what I want.  It took all my strength just to wrestle 20-30 of the 70-80lb American Blackbelly's to the ground for deworming and shots.  No way I would ever try that with these 300lb monsters.

I also saw a few sheep struggling very deeply just to breath...and four appeared to be in the last stages of pneumonia.

Prices were way lower last time I went to this auction.  Buyers explained to me that this is the first week in many weeks seller have been able to bring sheep to the market [the enormous amounts of rain made it impossible for most to bring sheep from their pastures].  Their were over ten times the normal amount of buyers...and this drove the prices way up.

So no go for this round.

Posting a pic of some of the sheep that were up for sale.  Most of the Suffolk in the pic sold for $150 per lamb. This time around, I did not see many Dorpers at all!


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 5, 2017)

Welcome to Hotel California!  Such a lovely place.

Just a little clover and grain, and suddenly Hotel California filled up super fast!  Full house now and we can no longer accept reservations.  So sorry!  Try again next week!





Not one sheep even dared to place a hoof in our beautiful hoop house for nearly two full weeks.  So tonight, in the midst of a rain storm, I tried something different...I placed a half bale of clover and a half bucket of grain inside Hotel California, then called them over.  Suddenly, guests from all over started showing up.  Now we have a full house.

They livin' it up at the Hotel California

It will be interesting to see if they stay the night...

Could be real nice to keep them warm and out of the rain...could be a big mistake if they start getting the respiratory infections or pneumonia.  

Dang, Hotel California...This could be Heaven or this could be Hell


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## Baymule (Feb 5, 2017)

I like that song!


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## Bruce (Feb 7, 2017)

All they needed was a room with complementary food!!



Baymule said:


> I like that song!



Not me. That and Eleanor Rigby each have a line that just creeps me out

"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."

"Waits at the window, wearing the face 
That she keeps in a jar by the door"


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## NH homesteader (Feb 7, 2017)

I love Hotel California! Now it's going to be stuck in my head all night.


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## Baymule (Feb 7, 2017)

Bruce said:


> All they needed was a room with complementary food!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I used to know all the words to Eleanor Rigby and several other Beatles songs and would sing them while I rode my horse along the feeder road on 610 Loop in Houston. I must have been around 15 years old. Thanks for the reminder!


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## NH homesteader (Feb 7, 2017)

I have no idea what Eleanor Rigby is. The Beatles? Ugh. So over rated!


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 7, 2017)

Thanks Bay… now it's stuck in my head too!
At least I like that song!


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## Latestarter (Feb 7, 2017)

It's not that they're over rated... it's that they are from before your time. Many of the artists my parents thought were tops, I have no desire to hear, and it will be the same when your daughter gets to be your age. Works in the other direction too... a lot of what they call music today, I don't consider to be.


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## NH homesteader (Feb 8, 2017)

I like a lot of old music. Just not the Beatles. And we can agree on how terrible most music is today!


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 8, 2017)

Boy did I create a huge bunny trail again...somehow went from Hoop Houses to the Eagles to the Beatles!  So sorry, but I must admit, it was kinda fun!

UPDATE: the sheep do not like our hoop house.  Last night, during a fairly large storm, they chose the base of a number of Eucalyptus trees several hundred feet away from the hoop house.

I have decided to remove the Hotel California sign and paint a sign that says, "Nobody home."  Then I would like to install a poster.  The poster will have a pic of one our our American Blackbelly Sheep riding a Harley Davidson through the Eucalyptus forest.  The title will be, "Born to be Wild!"

All humor aside, this as been an incredible learning experience and also a huge eye opener for me.

I mentioned it before, but I would like to say it again because it is the biggest lesson I took home from this experience:

_*American Blackbelly sheep mimic outdoor animal behavior that is much closer to deer and antelope than other species of domesticated sheep.*_


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## Latestarter (Feb 8, 2017)

Life is good, we live and learn, happy sheep makes for happy shepherd


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## farmerjan (Feb 8, 2017)

All the "semi-wild" breeds of sheep will prefer to be outside rather than in a shelter.  Often times the lambs will learn to go in but as they get older, the outside is where they want to be.  Saw it in the Am blackbellies we had,  and the Mouflons,  and the Dall sheep we have now.  The ewes have learned to take their lambs inside but they had alot of time to get used to the shelters.  We use calf hutches....got some of the fiberglass type ones and they have been in the field for 6 months before they decided that they were "SAFE" to use.  You are giving them a place to go and that is great, but it is strange to them, the tarps will make noise no matter how tight you have them fastened, and they are stressed with the water anyway.  So it is not a safe haven in their book; just a strange thing in their field that might trap them.  If you leave them, they will get used to them, especially if you feed them in them.  They might never love them, but they will get accustomed to them.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 8, 2017)

Jan,

Just when I thought I had it all figured out, you open my eyes to see a completely different angle to this entire adventure...

_*Shelters take some getting used to....*_

And now I see the truth behind your statement...we built the 3-walled shed last year and then added more square footage to it.  At first, the sheep did not go in very often, but after a few months, it was their go-to place for shelter from the hot sun in the summer and shelter from the rain and cold in the winter.  For a while it appeared as if it was their favorite hangout.

Unfortunately, even though we built up the 3-walled shed floor nearly 12 inches, it is now totally saturated with water...and I dare not even open the gate to that paddock.  It is so wet and soggy... and I am nearly certain it is a breeding ground for all sorts of terrible germs...so it is off limits until it dries out!

What a wonderful website BYH is to come to for learning.  Wisdom truly is found in the multitude of counsel.

Thanks again everyone for helping this city slicker!


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## farmerjan (Feb 8, 2017)

If you ever have some time, try reading some of the books by Temple Grandin.  She is a HIGHLY functioning autistic with "Aspergers" ?sp?.  She will make you look at things from the animals perspective and what frightens them and stuff.  Mostly consults with slaughter facilities and such; also helping farms to set up working pens.  Have listened to her speak and she is very smart.  Makes you look at things thru the eyes of the animal you are trying to "help".  But we had learned the shelter thing from just having the different breeds of non-domestic sheep.  And their propensity to go through fences....


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## NH homesteader (Feb 8, 2017)

Love Temple Grandin!


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## norseofcourse (Feb 8, 2017)

x3 - I just finished "Animals in Translation" and it was excellent.  I need to process it for awhile and then read it again.


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## Bruce (Feb 8, 2017)

Me too!! So many "DOH" things she points out. Want to get animals in the trailer from the barn? Make a horseshoe shape path they can't see out of and they think they are going back to the barn as they make the turn.


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## babsbag (Feb 8, 2017)

@soarwitheagles  Hope you are holding up and hanging on for the next round of storms.  Beginning to really wonder about the rainbow and the promise of never destroying the earth by flood. HE may not destroy the earth, but what about just CA? I am beginning to think that maybe that is the PLAN. This crazy state won't have to worry about leaving the Union, it will have already eroded away.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 9, 2017)

Babs,

Another "atmospheric river" today.  Wow, we are still experiencing lots of flooding.  Due to the super saturation of the soil, every rainfall results in a substantial river flowing directly through the middle of our large Ag building.  Kinda depressing if ya let it get to ya.

I am already planning major excavation for the spring.  Large berms and drainage ditches to direct all the streams around the Ag building instead of through the middle of it.

Arrived home today in the middle of a large rain storm and ewes were giving birth like crazy...one after another.  Just finished running around the forest trying to find all the lambs...it was challenging because at first sight, I only saw various ewes with the placenta hanging out...the ewes had stashed their lambs between logs and trees and I could not find them easily.  What a wonderful way to continue our test and theory that these sheep are better off living, eating, and even giving birth in the rain...even during a large storm!

I am attaching a pic of set of twins that dropped during the middle of the storm. You can see mama hasn't even licked off one of em' yet.  This storm is warmer...and I do not see the 30 minute old lambs shaking violently like the lambs born in the cold storms...so I suppose that is good news.  For some reason, the newest lamb hasn't opened her eyes yet...hope we do not have a problem...and if it keeps raining like this, mama ewe will not have to lick the lambs off...the rain will complete the task for her....

BTW, the lamb on the right is only a couple of minutes old...poor little rug rat!  Who knows, maybe mama Dorper will drop one more and make them triplets!

One more day of rain, then they say we will have a couple of days of clear weather...now that is good news!

Dang, maybe these lambs will be able to swim too!

Happy Break-the-Drought Year!


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## Baymule (Feb 9, 2017)

Adorable lambs! So why does a storm make animals give birth out on the middle of it? Beats the heck outa me!


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## babsbag (Feb 9, 2017)

Cute mama licking her lamb. They are so darn cute.

I think I would keep the AB sheep if they are that hardy.  It's nice that at least your sheep have some ground cover that isn't mud. I had a doe kid a few years ago in the only muddy place in the pen. WHY do they do THAT???

Looking forward to some sun for sure.


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## Latestarter (Feb 9, 2017)

Was watching the weather radar and satellite feeds for CA... Man, you folks can't seem to catch a break from the rain! I know you've had years of drought, but good gosh you've had a lot of rain.


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## Beekissed (Feb 9, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> I like a lot of old music. Just not the Beatles. And we can agree on how terrible most music is today!



I'm with you on that...I was raised on that era of music, being the youngest of nine kids I tend to love the genre and era that my oldest sibs liked because it holds the best memories for me.  But the Beatles?  Only had a few songs I liked and I'm with you....extremely overrated band.  Sooooooo many better musicians and bands from that era than those fellas.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 9, 2017)

Not sure why the sheep this year tend to give birth during some of the largest storms...but there appears to be a pattern of it now.  Who knows, maybe they want help cleaning up their lambs?  Serious downpours like today sure clean up a lot!

I was concerned because a monster owl was checking the two new born Dorper X's from only 30 ft. away!  We are not allowed to shoot owls here, and some owls have over a 5ft. wingspan...I think they could easily snatch a lamb...we also keep watching the hawks...they are here every day too.

Mama Dorper is still hanging out in the forest.  She is quite different than the other Dorper ewe that had the skunk lookin' lamb last month...this mama Dorper today will not leave her twins under any circumstances...whereas the other Dorper ewe dropped her skunk lookin' lamb and walked far away and remained far away, eating grass.  That lamb must constantly chase down mama for milk.  So I suppose I just learned some Dorpers are very, very good mamas and some are not so good.

Babs, after much thought and consideration, I think we will choose to remain with the American Blackbelly sheep.  I am not comfortable handling sheep species that are over 200 lbs [that is why I abstained from purchasing those incredible looking Suffolk lambs].  I am getting older, and the thought of jumping in the pen with 200+ lb. sheep and wrestling them to the ground for service is no longer an option.  I am in good shape, but I do not want to risk an injury.

At the good advice of the people here at BYH, we will sell all our cross breeds and not permit any of them to breed other ewes.  I informed my wife tonight we will sell "Big Red," the surprise AB/California Red lamb that we had in 2016, that looked like an Irish setter.  He is now approaching 175 lbs and he is barely a year old.

We will sell all the AB/Dorper crosses as soon as they reach selling weight which should be by summer time.

Latestarter, I promised myself to NEVER complain about even one drop of rain after going through the worst drought in written history here...but it sure is tempting to snivel!  Some things are getting a little spooky.  Oroville dam, the second largest dam in all of California, just had the spillway compromised.  Authorites are stating no need to worry, but the dam is 93% full, and from what I understand, they have had to limit the amount of water they release now.  To me, this sounds alarming, but the DWR states everything is under control.  Four times more water is rushing into Oroville dam at this moment than is being released...sure hope this is not serious.

Beekissed, I hear you on the music.  I grew up in Silicon Valley when it wasn't full of silicon, but, rather lots of apricot and plum trees.  Those were the days when Filmore West, Winterland, Days on the Green ect. were rolling.  I remember one of my most prized possessions was a FM converter that connected to my AM radio in my 65' Comet...listened daily to the Eagles, Steppenwolf, Janis Joplan, Jimi Hendrix, Deep Purple, ZZ Top, the Who, Pink Floyd, The Allman Brothers, and a myriad of other ear drum shattering bands...

To be honest with you, I no longer listen much to the lyrics or the music as I once did.  Now, I listen almost exclusively to praise and worship songs.  I find the Spirit and the message much more in line with my renewed mind and untwisted belief systems...but I must confess, I keep hearing "Welcome to the Hotel California" in my head for the last 2-3 days!  I blame it all on the sheep!  [just joking].

Whoops...hoop house...let me run out and look...one moment everyone...half the sheep are in the HH, most are the ewes with the new borns.  I cannot find the second lamb born this afternoon.  I need to go search the forest...byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

UPDATE: After searching diligently, we cannot find the second lamb in the posted picture.  I carefully checked where we last left the mama and the two lambs, but see no signs of coyotes, wild dog, or mountain lion tracks...dang...hope it wasn't a monster owl.  Now I feel horrible.  I wish I had simply picked up both lambs and walked the mother to the paddock.  I foolishly left them out on the outskirts of the forest...Will check again in the morning...


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## babsbag (Feb 9, 2017)

Hope you found the lamb.

I keep hoping and praying that the DWR is correct and that there is no danger, but honestly, can you imagine what would happen if they told people that the dam could fail? There are SOOO many people that it would impact, there would be no way they could get them all out.  I am not sure what impact the use of the emergency spill way will have if they have to use it. It is unpaved and ungated so whatever goes goes. It has stopped raining at my place so hoping that the worse is over everywhere. But I know that the rivers can rise for hours after the rain stops.


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## babsbag (Feb 10, 2017)

Looks like the emergency spillway is going to be used tomorrow night.  Katie bar the door.


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## Latestarter (Feb 10, 2017)

Amazing... that's a LOOTTT of water and though they say the dam is fine... if the overflow keeps eating the spillway, that trench is going to start undercutting and backing up toward the top and once it gets there, that's all she wrote. Just wow. I hope those downstream have their bug out bags ready to go.


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## Bruce (Feb 10, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> I am already planning major excavation for the spring. Large berms and drainage ditches to direct all the streams around the Ag building instead of through the middle of it.



What? Complaining about having water available right in the building, no expense to get it there?? 

Congrats on the lambs, sure home you find the missing one. I BELIEVE that in many places you can legally shoot raptors that threaten livestock. Might want to check into that so you know your options.


OK, this looks REALLY bad. "Update, 7:15 p.m. Thursday":
https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2017/02/07/engineers-assess-spillway-problem-at-oroville-dam/

If the rain doesn't cut way back, there are going to be some new rivers, new paths for old rivers and some "used to be there roads". Same thing happened when Irene blasted Vermont a few years ago. Not dam spill overs, just WAY too much water coming down the mountains into narrow valleys with villages on the edge of what were relatively small rivers for scores of decades. Some farms ended up with their tillable soil going "downstream" replaced with rocks. 

 for everyone downhill from Lake Ororville


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## Baymule (Feb 10, 2017)

No you cannot shoot raptors. Nope. Nada. NOT. Suck it up and get LGD's. Hope you find the lamb.


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## farmerjan (Feb 10, 2017)

Baymule is right.  You cannot shoot any bird of prey; eagles, owls, hawks, VULTURES,  NONE.  Have been through that with the free range layers and the eagle that decided that ONE A DAY was HIS personal right.  Lost 122  and the neighbors  were watching.  And our Local Sheriff also was losing hens to an eagle and his LGD would be trying to chase them off and the other one of the pair would go in and get one while the LGD was busy with the other.  Then they attacked the LGD and it got some nasty talons in it's back and stuff.  They had a young LGD in there that was learning the ropes and they hurt it so bad it died from the wounds and infection.  So we both decided that for now, free range layers are so NOT a part of things.  Eagles are majestic, but they are as mean a predator as they come.
The black mexican vultures are such a problem that they will get together in group and attack a new born calf.  There are states that have introduced legislation to allow for them to be killed since they have become such a nusance(sp).  Had a group of at least 10 after a calf that one of our heifers had.  She was running at them and they were circling around on the ground to try to get to it and the after birth.  Luckily the friend that lived in the house saw them, went down on the 4-wheeler and chased them off and called me.  I was on my way home from work and got there and stayed til the calf got up and nursed and the heifer took it up into the wooded area.  They are the absolutely most god-awful thing there is.  
Here, there are several eagles that have been micro-chipped;  it would be a crap shoot to kill one and have it be one of them.  They will put you under the jail if you are caught killing one or if it can be tracked to a place where it was buried.
Had a "chicken hawk" get into the run attached to a chicken house and kill one of my sons best breeding purebred show bantam roosters.  It just disappeared and we have NO idea where it went but we haven't seen it since.  They are fast and fly like a woodcock in the wild, darting  in and out and erratic.  Next to impossible to shoot even if it was legal.

Most here practice SSS with anything but the eagles.  I caught some black buzzards years ago that were attacking and eating the rear end out of a LIVE calf about 20 foot in under a big shed.  I will say they never flew off anywhere and I an not afraid to say it.  I had to put the calf down too.  It was gross.  

Hate to say it but I am afraid that the lamb is probably gone.  Don't ever leave a baby like that if you see any sign of a bird of prey.  They can pick up a good sized rabbit and a 5-6 lb chicken and carry it off.  Just be glad that you still have the ewe and at least one lamb.  Sorry that it was probably a lesson learned.


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## Bruce (Feb 10, 2017)

Baymule said:


> No you cannot shoot raptors. Nope. Nada. NOT. Suck it up and get LGD's. Hope you find the lamb.


So much for that idea. Seems I was wrong

again

as usual


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 10, 2017)

Thanks for all the great info again everyone!  Yes, Lake Oroville is still having challenges.  Now it appears they have increased the flow to 5500cfs, the spillway is experiencing more damage by the minute, the lake is receiving double the amount of water it is releasing, and they plan on opening the emergency spillway tomorrow morning.  Lake Oroville is still the highest dam in the USA.  Never a boring moment, that's for sure!

And never a boring moment raising sheep too!

I hear you on the hawks, owls, buzzards, etc.  As mentioned before, a friend gave us 15 free range chickens a couple of years ago and he swore they knew how to take care of themselves [they did just fine at his ranch 30 miles away].  They lasted less than two weeks.  Came home the first day and there was a massive hawk, enjoying his last few bites.  Next morning, it was an obvious owl kill.  Next morning, it was an obvious skunk kill [headless torsos].  Finally, I believe the large population of possums helped themselves to the last few chickens.  We realized we need to keep our chickens in a large enclosed area, and to this day, that is exactly what we do...don't let em' out for even a minute or two.

I do know there are a number of people out here that practice the SSS with no qualms whatsoever...and I personally have no problem with that at all.

After searching for over an hour last night, I gave up on the new lamb.  I searched most of the forest with shotgun in hand, looking for tracks at the last place I saw the lamb...still no go.  It was a horrible feeling when I realized it was 100% my own fault...

So around 10 pm I called it quits and went to bed...hoping that a good night's sleep would help dull the pain of my foolish decision.  I told my wife if we did not find it in the evening, it was as good as dead.  My wife would not give up.  She kept looking and looking even in the midst of the storm.  The back area has 12 or so acres of Eucalyptus forest.  Come to find out she found the lamb far away, near a neighbor's property line.  She carried it up front and set it down next to Dorper mama and the other twin and went to bed.  She had also picked up a number of placentas and threw them in the garbage.

Early this morning the mama was cuddling only one twin.  I found the lost lamb hundreds of feet away, sleeping under a tree.  I separated the mama and both twins from the flock and gave them their own paddock.  Hours later, all three are hanging out, close together, and both lambs are slurping the milk.  So it appears as if this nightmare may have turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  First, I learned NEVER leave a new born in the back forest.  Second, I am reconsidering my plan to separate all ewes that appear ready to give birth, and place them in a paddock, away from the forest, in a much safer area...

Have a great day everyone!  I have the day off from my teaching job and I am enjoying Lincoln's Holiday and working at our ranch all day!


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 10, 2017)

So glad he's back in the fold!


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## norseofcourse (Feb 10, 2017)

Kudos to your wife for not giving up!  So glad she found the lamb and they are all doing well now.


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## farmerjan (Feb 10, 2017)

Tickled that your wife found the lamb.  I am surprised that it managed to find a place to feel safe, and be safe long enough for you to get it.  Alot of times the ewe will take the bigger or the more aggressive baby and then shun the lessor one.  It is their instinct to take the one that can follow quicker to get it away from the birth place so that the scent doesn't attract a predator.

We are in the middle of lambing right now and have had to take one of a set of twins that she just won't accept and an old ewe just rejected both her lambs and she doesn't have any milk.  So they are on bottles.  We will sometimes take a twin from a first time ewe so she can learn and understand that she needs to take care of the baby.  Twins often confuse them and they will abandon them if overwhelmed.  We are lucky that most of the first timers seem to have mostly singles.  And some that have twins do fine.  But twins are also hard on a first time mother as they often don't have enough milk either.  By the second time they are fine with the twins.  We will separate the ewe with her twins so that they can bond as the lambs sometimes just get confused and they can lose their place and then the ewe will not want them.  Some will do fine when they have nothing else to concentrate on but their babies for a day or two and the lambs get stronger and know where to get their meal from.


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## Hens and Roos (Feb 10, 2017)

Glad to hear the lamb was found!


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 10, 2017)

Thank you for the kudos and celebrating with us!  Sure feels nice to have found the lost lamb...

Jan, thank you for sharing your wisdom and experience. I never realized that the ewe may accept the larger and more aggressive lamb and shun the little guy...but that is exactly what appears to have just occurred.  In the future, we will do our best to monitor the birthing processes and the immediate aftermath much more closely.  Then we can take the appropriate action that is required.

Dang, this has been like an emotional roller coaster ride!

*Ok, let's not forget the end of the story....


*

*And* *they* *lived* *happily ever* *after!*​



 

 



PS I still think they look more like a skunk than a sheep!


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 10, 2017)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


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## farmerjan (Feb 10, 2017)

What is the ewe crossed with? She is not all dorper.  And I can't remember where you are but it sure is green there and a garden already??? Wow.


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## babsbag (Feb 10, 2017)

The lambs are adorable and so glad that it was found. It is a horrible feeling when one is missing, been there, only to find them tucked away safe and sound. 

I always put my goats in a kidding stall, not so much for birthing in a safe place but it helps with the bonding. 

Nice to see some sunshine today.


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## Latestarter (Feb 10, 2017)

They look like drowned skunks at that... Look at how green you are there... Sorry for all the water. Glad the lamb is well/found/bonded now.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 10, 2017)

farmerjan said:


> What is the ewe crossed with? She is not all dorper.  And I can't remember where you are but it sure is green there and a garden already??? Wow.



Jan, you sure are good with sheep!  Ok, I thought the mama was all Dorper, but, as mentioned before, I purchased both Dorpers a little over a year ago at a local auction for $60-$75 per lamb.  Both Dorpers were approximately 8 weeks old when I purchased them.  The Katahdin lamb that I purchased with the Dorpers died within 4 days from pneumonia.   If I had to do it all over again, I would have hit all three lambs with antibiotics before even taking them home, then, I would have quarantined them for 30-60 days.

Please let me know if you have any ideas on what these "Dorper like" sheep are!  Who knows, maybe that is why they were selling for so cheap.  Other Dorpers at that time were selling for $55 if you bought 10 at a time.  A few months ago I watched as 19 pregnant Dorpers were sold for $37.50 each.

The father of these black lambs birthed by the ewe Dorper was a full grown American Blackbelly.  So I would say they are a Dorper/AB cross...but now I am not sure what other percentages are involved.  When I finally sell the lambs, I may title the ad as "Heinz 57."

Regarding our location, we are in central valley California.  And yes, here we grow gardens all year round.  During the winters we focus mainly on various kales and swiss chards, but many people also grow brussel sprouts, cabbages, lettuces, etc. all winter long.  This year, we planted over 1,000 fava bean plants in October/November as an experiment.  We hope to successfully make some sheep silage with the fava bean plants and beans.  The fava beans should be ready to harvest in April.  The nice thing about growing them here in fall/winter is there is zero water costs...and we find that really, really nice.  Free silage and free fava beans galore for us to eat!  If we succeed with this crop of fava beans, we hope to plant some acres of it next fall.



babsbag said:


> The lambs are adorable and so glad that it was found. It is a horrible feeling when one is missing, been there, only to find them tucked away safe and sound.
> 
> I always put my goats in a kidding stall, not so much for birthing in a safe place but it helps with the bonding.
> 
> Nice to see some sunshine today.



Thanks babs!  Guess what?  Bees are working like crazy today...I was concerned we would have some swarms [the activity was off the chart], but, so far, all is well.



Latestarter said:


> They look like drowned skunks at that... Look at how green you are there... Sorry for all the water. Glad the lamb is well/found/bonded now.



Thank you LS...yes, we have had all green since October...that is when the rain began...so this has been an incredibly luscious fall and winter for the sheep...hope they do not become spoiled!


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 10, 2017)

Wow, this just happened a few miles north of us.  My wife and I both drive Highway 99 every day.

Our soil here in northern California is super saturated.  People can no longer pretend everything is "normal" and life goes on as usual.  Super saturated soil is a major game changer...as the video shows...

http://www.kcra.com/article/freight-train-derails-near-elk-grove/8729535


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