# Goats and head butting each other



## Queen Mum

I think that when a mother has new babies, if she doesn't feel comfortable with the LGD or with the other goats around her and her babies, it is appropriate to let her push them away or even chase them away.  As long as she doesn't get vicious.  

In a herd, there is always a bit of head butting going on, at the feed trough, in the barn to determine who sleeps where, at the gate to see who goes first. I also think when you integrate new goats into a herd, there will be head butting and shuffling of herd dynamics.  I don't see this as bullying, I see this as normal.  If there are two herd queens one will assert dominance over the other and eventually it will all settle out.  

I do recognize that some goats can be bullies, but I don't think head butting per se is a sign of bullying. 

My question for you is,  when does head butting become excessive?  Where and how do you draw the line?

And for the herd queen, new mother, goat vs dog what is the line?

For example, if the dog chases the goats should the goats be allowed to turn around and give the dog a wallop to warn the dog to keep a distance.  

If the mom has new babies should the mom be allowed to chase the dog away or keep the other goats at a distance (away from her babies).

What are the rules for a herd queen?


----------



## Mamaboid

This is one of those questions that has a lot of answers.  First being, I think different People are comfortable with different answers.  I personally don't worry about head butting.  What I WILL NOT ALLOW is belly butting. Not from anybody no time no way.  That is dealt with harshly and immediately when seen here.  Belly butter goes  to the ground right now if I can reach her, and gets the spray bottle if I cannot and sent into her respective hut for a cool down period.  I say her, because I have never seen any of the bucks belly butt anybody.  We have a mixed herd horns and no horns, and our herd queen has horns.  She rules with an iron hoof, but is not mean, just stern.  Her way or the highway is her rule.  The other goats, bucks included have learned what they are allowed to do and what they cannot.  As for a Mom with kids, short of hurting other goats, she pretty much gets to be boss of who she will let near them and who she won't.  The only problem we have had with that is when we were trying to do hoof trimming Monday night, we were restraining Stephanie, and the kids got too close to her and Elsie tried butting her while we were holding her.  That got Elsie a "smack down", sharp NO and a wrap to the nose.  She stopped right away.  Our bucks head butt all the time, but it is mostly play and they never have gotten serious even when we first put them together.  The dog question is a whole nuther thing.  It is natural for goats to be afraid of dogs, no matter if they are guardians or not.  Prey instinct says you turn, face the danger, or run like heck.  A mother will always turn to defend her babies from any threat, even if it really isn't one and I don't think this should be penalized in any way.  LOL You asked for opinions, that's mine and I am stickin to it.


----------



## Queen Mum

I agree, no belly butting.  Sometimes a shoulder butt looks like a belly butt and isn't.    

My herd queen pushes, doesn't head butt.  She will push another doe out of the way by the shoulder  all the way across the barn, if she feels like it.   It looks like a belly butt but never is.  And she has never hurt any does, ever.  Now they won't go near her when she gives them the "look".  But she is not mean or vicious.  Just commanding.  But with the dogs, she will never let them near her kids.  EVER.  

How do you deal with a smaller goat that is defending herself against a much bigger goat?  I do have one doe, though, Jelly Bean, that head butts when she wants her way.  She's a rescue.  She can't do anything but head butt wherever she can reach - ie leg, butt, knee, etcetera.  She used to be very quiet and scared.   She had to fight for every morsel of food before I got her and was emaciated.  She's tiny and so she will head butt where ever she can reach.  I'm working on getting her to understand that the has to temper her head butts.  She's slowly getting it.  She shares her food now.  But the goats in the herd are clickish and her buddy is in the mama pen right now so she doesn't have a companion.  

BUT  She hates the dog and wants her to stay away.  The dog mercilessly chases the other goats, but not her.  The dog is afraid of her.  I'm not so sure that is a bad thing.  But I don't want her to hurt the dog either.


----------



## Mamaboid

Its a hard thing to draw that line.  Our little Dusty was the same way, the smallest goat and picked on, so we didn't interfere too much to stop her from defending herself.....and then she grew up and we realized she had turned into a BRAT.  We have worked very hard to get her turned around and she is getting better.  The trick is to catch it in the act and correct it and that is a real trick because you get nothing else done if you stand and watch them 24/7. LOL  Although, that sounds like a good way to pass a day. or 2.  0r....


----------



## Queen Mum

Hmmm.  Maybe, I will just have to spend a couple days with her.  She is pretty untamed.  I've spent a LOT of time trying to get her to come close enough to be hand fed.  Correcting her is going to be difficult.


----------



## redtailgal

Whose dog is chasing the goats?  I'd be more worried about that, honestly.

I dont blame her for going after the dog!

As for the headbutting, I just dont get involved anymore.  My involvement in herd dynamics seemed to make them resentful and the disagreements got worse.  Once I backed out, they worked it out and all is well.


----------



## Queen Mum

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Whose dog is chasing the goats?  I'd be more worried about that, honestly.
> 
> I dont blame her for going after the dog!
> 
> As for the headbutting, I just dont get involved anymore.  My involvement in herd dynamics seemed to make them resentful and the disagreements got worse.  Once I backed out, they worked it out and all is well.


Good point.  

The Dog is a young LGD.  She is, I think, trying to "herd" the goats to where she wants them to go.  But part of the time, she is playing with them.  Mama and Jelly Bean just turn around and knock her flat.    Brownie is trained as a packgoat so she just stands still and won't run.  The other goats run away.  Jelly Bean came from a farm where dogs were bad news so she sees them as predators and head butts them whenever they get close.


----------



## Mzyla

My goats are rarely and any seriously butting each other. Only at *Grain* feeding time they want to be the first and get the most, so there is more of a "pushing" going on.

Recently I noticed my borrowed Billy boy butting my Great Pyrenees.
_
This Video was made through the window glass from the house and 6x Zoom, so it's not the sharpest.
I just want to show you appropriate behavior of LGD. How gentle the GP is with the goats. 
Notice how Billy goat is bothering him & GP is either ignoring or correcting on needed basis. On the very end of this Video, Billy pushed little too far & GP increased correction accordingly. This is one of the many good traits in this dog._

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qacJ5VIzgdY


----------



## redtailgal

Honestly, Queenmum, I'd have to work on that dog.

That chasing, be it herding or playing, has got to be stressful on the goats, and stressed animals get snarky and grumpy with one another.

Poor jelly bean! lol, It's weird here.  My goats are terrified of dogs.  Strange how it works, the ones that were attacked are long gone, but they taught the others to fear them.  Cept for Socrates.......he challenges any dog that comes through.  It worries me that he will fight the wrong one and get himself killed.  I think that goats plot and conspire on how to make us worry.


----------

