# hair sheep compared to goats?



## AMT15 (Jul 16, 2012)

can hair sheep survive off of forage alone better than goats? Do they do good on forage other than pasture? And do they need more care than goats, hoof trimming, worming/parasites, ect.

Thanks,


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## AMT15 (Jul 16, 2012)

and also their personality and intelligence? I am kinda bias against sheep and I'm trying to get over it, lol.


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## SheepGirl (Jul 17, 2012)

Well sheep are more of grazers while goats are more of browsers...so if you don't have pasture, I'd recommend goats. Sheep hooves need to be trimmed 1-2x a year and hair sheep seem to be more parasite tolerant than wool breeds. But you can always select for these traits, too--just let the ones that get high parasite loads die on their own.

Sheep...as for personality and intelligence...these are the personalities I've noted among mine: annoying (baaing too much lol), pushy (can't wait an extra second to be fed), stand-offish (they don't come up to you as willingly as other sheep). I would say they're moderately intelligent. It took them 2 feedings to recognize that the big black trash bag I was carrying holds their hay and they were no longer afraid of it. My oldest ewe has realized that halter = me touching her, trimming her hooves, leading her around, having her do what I want, etc. The younger sheep haven't quite figured it out yet  But then again I've seen some sheep try to jump through solid walls to get away when you catch them (even when the others are going the opposite way). So some can be downright dumb lol


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## boykin2010 (Jul 17, 2012)

In my experience, I only trim sheep hooves once every couple of years. But not everyone gets trimmed because not all of them need it. I know a lot of people trim a lot more than me. I hate trimming and my sheep's hooves never seem to be that bad. I have noticed that sheep with black hooves (mainly what I have) do not need to be trimmed as often. I have hair sheep and have never wormed mine. Also, never had a problem with worms. 

They do well on pasture but I do not have any browse for them so I don't know how they would react. 

Mine are pretty smart. They respect the fencing, and they know what time I feed them. They are waiting on me at 5:00 every day at the front of the pasture. They know me and are very friendly. When we have guests they act skittish because they aren't used to them. So I know they realize who is who and trust me.


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## boothcreek (Jul 17, 2012)

Compared to the 2 goats I own and the dozens I've met so far my Barbado are about 10 times smarter then them, the goats just drive me plain and simply nuts with their dumbness right now. like twice a day one of them get the awesome idea that he wants to chew on the stallions e-fence(supposed to be strong enough to stop a raging bull) and gets zapped a good one(that fence downed me for a second, should put a goat in a coma) and run away screaming, just to then come back and do it again(if they werent castrated I would think they get some sort of turn on from that, who knows)...  
the sheep touched it once and now avoid any suspended wire cause it may be charged and check it by going close with the nose WITHOUT touching it to see if its on(you can feel the static).
Even the 3 wooly lambs figured that one altho they are almost on the same level on the dumb scale as the goats. They graze on a slight hill and walk a few feet over the top so they cant see the rest of the herd and then freak out thinking they are alone while my barbados look on  with a "whats wrong with them?" expression.

My barbados free range, so I dont have to feed anything all summer, I do trim feet in the spring cause 5 months of snow they dont get their feet worked down at all. They brows quite a bit but are much more selective in their browse(we love evergreens, any branch in standing-on-hindlegs-height is bare), eat the flowers off of thistles too but other then that mainly graze. 

They come when they see me with a bucket and are easy to catch and handle(once they are use to the system it works awesome). I think most hair sheep arent much different in character then woolies, the more primitive breeds(texas dahl, barbados, painted deserts etc) have still the wild sheep smarts and quick thinking tho. Some people find those infuriating, but I find the wild instincts a whole lot more predictable/workable then the domestic one.

They dont trust strangers which is fine by me, but once you are in the good books you get mugged for treats just like me.


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## AMT15 (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies, and the great info! I was also wondering about aggression in the rams?

thanks,


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## SheepGirl (Jul 17, 2012)

My ram rams into me whenever I go in his pen. He just gave me a bruise the other day the size of a 50 cent coin on my leg (which still hurts ). But usually as soon as I enter the pen I choke him (I know it sounds mean, but it lets him know what I'm capable of ) and that usually reminds him not to bother me for the rest of the time I'm out there. But through the fence, when I'm NOT in the pen, he is a complete doll and will walk up to you and will let you pet him (but we don't ever pet him on the top of his head!) and everything.


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## boothcreek (Jul 17, 2012)

My rams never showed any agression towards people, but I never tried to make pets out of them, if they get tame enough for a quick pet over the back(or in the winter hold onto his haunches so he can drag me up the icy hill to their pen ) or scratch on the chin fine but nothing is encouraged and never any touching on the forehead/face. 
They get to eat out of my hand and  personal space is totally forgotten by my one Ram Jason when I have a bucket of grain in my hands. Because of him I have to carry the bucket on my shoulder now, otherwise he will walk beside me on his hind legs trying to get his head in the bucket(and his horns are too big so he doesnt fit but still tries to lean in with all his body weight...  he's a dork).
He tried once to lean on me with his front legs to reach the bucket on my shoulder and got hell (1 well placed back-kick in the gut), hasnt tried it since. The goats I have to beat up twice a day so they dont jump up on you, who is the smart one in terms of learning here? The Sheep also know if they go past the one building in the yard they get in trouble since that is the "garden" territory which is off-limits, the goats dont get that rule either....

Jason only ever gave me 1 bruise and that was by walking past me trying to get into the feeding paddock before me and hooking me behind the knee with the tip of his horn cause he passed too close(hes got no idea how wide his headgear is). 
Now when i go to feed I have trained him that if he walks beside me(ever seen a sheep heel, kinda like that) and I have my hand in front of his face with fingers spread that means -move over you're too close- and he seriously moves over about a foot so he cannot accidentally hook me. Dunno when I taught him that but we just kinda worked that sign out at some point.

Rams really vary in personality, just like people. 
One thing I have noticed tho is that the fathers personality really get passed along. My super mellow, mindful rams Sons have been absolutely carboncopies of their dad character wise and so have the ewe lambs, even with flighty moms out of that ram any lamb is like him in character.
So if you go to buy a ram lamb for breeding, go check out the sire if you can and if you like his character chances are the sons will be a lot like him.

Thought I better add that we own 5 rams right now,  never had any issues and none ever even gave the hint of any agression.


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## AMT15 (Jul 17, 2012)

lol. And to You who breed both sheep and goats, who is easier? matures faster? ect. 

Thanks again,


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## boothcreek (Jul 17, 2012)

Sheep hands down.  They are easier to keep penned, the goats get out of everything and respect no boundaries of any sort. Also the sheep(even my slow maturing Barbados) mature faster then the goats have on the identical care/feed etc.


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## AMT15 (Jul 17, 2012)

Wow, I'm sold. We're looking to move soon and if we get some good pasture I'll definitively be getting sheep first. Thanks for all the good info. And anything else you think I should know would be much appreciated.


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## RemudaOne (Jul 17, 2012)

Research your breeds. Figure out well in advance which one suits your needs and desires. If you don't want to bother with shearing, there are hair sheep that shed. Some breeds are flighty and some are calm. You should have no problem finding a breed that you'll fall in love with.


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## AMT15 (Jul 17, 2012)

So any suggestions? certainly want a hair sheep or other naturally shedding breed. I'm not really interested in meat or anything like that, just want to raise some and would pretty much just be selling their babies. do you guys know if there would be a pretty good market for that? 

Thanks,


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## AMT15 (Jul 17, 2012)

is it true that the kahtadin and others that are shedding hair sheep breeds are not very parasite resistant?


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## AMT15 (Jul 17, 2012)

I like the barbados blackbelly......


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## bonbean01 (Jul 17, 2012)

We have Dorper/Kat crosses and totally love them!  We do the garlic barrier and apple cider vinegar drenching monthly and so far not had any problems with parasites and have not needed chemical wormers.  We have a small herd, 9 total and that is a very easy herd for us to manage and enjoy   We spend a lot of time with them, not because they need that, but because we enjoy them.  We made a mistake at the start of this with our first ram lamb...that was stupidity on our part...made a pet out of him and he got dangerous when he got older...got rid of him and started with a new ram lamb and did it right this time.  He is a gentle fellow and him we don't cuddle him.  He has sired really excellent healthy lambs.

Let us know what you decide and hope you enjoy this whole process!


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

AMT15 said:
			
		

> is it true that the kahtadin and others that are shedding hair sheep breeds are not very parasite resistant?


That is absolutely NOT true! Katahdins are one of the most parasite resistant breeds out there! I have some and have never wormed them! 

Barbados Blackbelly are good sheep. I own a couple of those also. I have heard they are the best when it comes to parasite resistance but I haven't seen much difference between them and my katahdins. Make sure you buy from a reputable breeder who checks all the sheeps for worms and keeps good records. Thankfully, I have one of the top Katahdin breeders right down the road from me. 

The bad thing with Barbados is they are flighty. Mine are not friendly at all and they are hard to catch when I want to sell them. My Katahdins however, walk right up and let me pet them and everything. Another reason I like Katahdins better than Barbados is that they throw all kinds of different colors. You really never know what you are going to get. You can breed a brown Kat to a white Kat and end up with a black and white spotted Kat lamb! Or breed 2 black sheep together and end up with a red and white spotted lamb. Barbados usually throw the same black and brown color pattern unless you end up with painted dessert sheep. 

If you end up getting Katahdins I always suggest after you get experience with sheep you get breeder stock. It is much easier to sell breeding stock in my area than "commercial sheep."  Plus there is actually money to be made.

Here is a picture of the ram I will be using this year. He is only about 6 months old in this photo. His parents were both solid brown and look at his coloring!


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> We have Dorper/Kat crosses and totally love them!  We do the garlic barrier and apple cider vinegar drenching monthly and so far not had any problems with parasites and have not needed chemical wormers.  We have a small herd, 9 total and that is a very easy herd for us to manage and enjoy   We spend a lot of time with them, not because they need that, but because we enjoy them.  We made a mistake at the start of this with our first ram lamb...that was stupidity on our part...made a pet out of him and he got dangerous when he got older...got rid of him and started with a new ram lamb and did it right this time.  He is a gentle fellow and him we don't cuddle him.  He has sired really excellent healthy lambs.
> 
> Let us know what you decide and hope you enjoy this whole process!


I agree. No problems with mine either. I have friends with wooled breeds who have to worm them constantly. It is just one less thing for me to worry about. The Katahdins are such easy keepers. 

I also had a bad experience with my first ram. I bottle fed him and he became obnoxious...  Never would suggest that to anyone again. The best thing to do is rent a ram or go buy a full grown ram that hasn't been raised around people it's whole life.


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

decisions, decisions...... What are the purposes of the cross breeds? Just for meat? Or would I still be able to get rid of them selling them as breeding stock? Also, I believe that I read somewhere that you can breed some breeds as early as 5 months, but what breed is this because all the ones I have read about seem to be about 7 mo.? And any opinions on the st. croix and dorper? I also read that the barbados blackbelly most often have twins, is this rare among the other hair sheep breeds?

Thanks again and sorry for all the questions,


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

Doing more reading, and no, many breeds have twins and some times more. I also realize that it's going to be hard to pick a breed, lol. Are there other popular crosbreeds? I believe that at the moment my fav. seem to be the st. croix, katahdins and barbados blackbelly. Anyway, look forward to more of your helpful advice. 

Thanks,


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

AMT15 said:
			
		

> decisions, decisions...... What are the purposes of the cross breeds? Just for meat? Or would I still be able to get rid of them selling them as breeding stock? Also, I believe that I read somewhere that you can breed some breeds as early as 5 months, but what breed is this because all the ones I have read about seem to be about 7 mo.? And any opinions on the st. croix and dorper? I also read that the barbados blackbelly most often have twins, is this rare among the other hair sheep breeds?
> 
> Thanks again and sorry for all the questions,


Cross breeds, at least in my area, are solely for meat. I think I only sold 1 crossbred lamb this year for a breeder just because it was great quality. It was a Dorper x Katahdin. I have one dorper ewe and really like her. The only problem is that she only has 1 lamb each year. She is almost 5 and has never had a twin. Thankfully, her singles are always really nice quality and I hate to cull her. She was one of my first sheep I ever got. 

Some breeds can be bred as early as 5 months but isn't recommended. Katahdins can sometimes breed this early and occasionally the Barbados also. Not sure about other breeds. I usually breed my ewe lambs when they are 7-8 months old. I like them to lamb when they reach a year. 

I have never owned a St. Croix just because they are very hard to find in my area. There are some St. Croix mixes out there but not any purebreds. St. Croix in my opinion from researching are about the same as Katahdins. 

All hair sheep breeds are very prolific. Most breeders try to get a 215-225% lamb crop from Katahdins. This means most ewes have twins and a few ewes have triplets. Usually triplets are expected out of the older more mature ewes because they can handle it. The only time a single is allowed is from a yearling. If a ewe had single her 2nd or 3rd year then for me and some other breeders she would be considered for culling. 

My Katahdins far outproduce my barbados. They throw more lambs and the quality of the Kat lamb is always better. The Kat lambs are meatier, and mature faster. I will admit though, my barbados did not come from a big breeder. They came from a local guy. Most of my Katahdins came from excellent bloodlines and from reputable breeders so I may not be comparing apples to apples. If I had excellent barbados stock and the Katahdin stock i have now it would be a better comparison. 

Hope this helps


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## SheepGirl (Jul 18, 2012)

If you're still stuck on a breed, try my sheep breed selector (link in my signature)...there are two, one for common and one for uncommon breeds. You can't select based on the parasite tolerance of the breed, but you can select on the basis of prolificacy, growth rates, size, wool type & weight (or whether you want wool), hardiness, purpose of the sheep, and length of breeding season.


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## boothcreek (Jul 18, 2012)

boykin2010 said:
			
		

> The bad thing with Barbados is they are flighty. Mine are not friendly at all and they are hard to catch when I want to sell them. My Katahdins however, walk right up and let me pet them and everything. Another reason I like Katahdins better than Barbados is that they throw all kinds of different colors. You really never know what you are going to get. You can breed a brown Kat to a white Kat and end up with a black and white spotted Kat lamb! Or breed 2 black sheep together and end up with a red and white spotted lamb. Barbados usually throw the same black and brown color pattern unless you end up with painted dessert sheep.


I had the exact opposite, my American Black bellies are pests you trip over and the kats I had you better sell them for meat and be good with a rifle otherwise there was no catching those suckers. My last 4 kats all had to be sniped off the pasture to bring to butcher  and those kats were all from good breeders. I think it depends what type of instinct you can work best with/have the most understanding of. The way the kats reacted to things never made sense to me, if they reacted they overreacted and got hysterical and the blinders came down and from that moment that situation or anything similar was met with blind hysterics.

If you like the black belly type but want pattern get painted deserts, its always so much fun to see what I get out of my painted ewe when I try out different rams.

Yes the kats and dorpers grow much faster and meatier then the black bellies for sure, but for my free range set-up they and our european mouflon sheep fit just perfect and a 45lb lamb carcass has always been enough for us. I mainly breed to sell registered breeding stock and a few lambs for our freezer and maybe sell 1 or 2 for butcher to other people.

As for heats, my black belly ewe lambs start coming into heat at 4 months old usually(i dont breed them until 7 or 8 months tho). 
My ewes give birth twice a year normally unless I think one isnt up for it and she gets to sit out for a few months, right now my girls are all on an additional one month break(just cause I rather have janurary lambs then december ones, then I have 4-h lambs to sell if I get inquiries). They come into heat promptly about a month after giving birth unless their condition is less then ideal.


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

thanks for the great info. So you both are talking about the barbados blackbelly, correct? And for those of you who raise more than one breed, which is your favorite?

Thanks,


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

Yes, I am talking about Barbados blackbelly. boothcreek is talking about American Blackbellies. There is a difference in the breed I am just not sure what exactly.  I own Barbados Blackbellies, Katahdins and a dorper ewe right now. I also used to have some wooled ewes. My favorites by far are the Katahdins. 

All I know is that if selling lambs solely for meat I wouldn't go with the blackbelly. My blackbelly lambs are small and not as meaty. However, if you like the coloring and the fact they are parasite resistant and prolific then go for it. Barbados Blackbelly are known to be more skittish and stand-offish if you check the internet and talk with people. Partly from where they are from and how they are raised. There are some cases where it is the exact opposite and sometimes it has to do with the way the sheep was raised since it was born.

My Katahdins are calm, friendly, parasite resistant, prolific and produce good meaty lambs which could be used for breeding stock or meat. They fit me perfectly. Other breeds suit other people though. 

boothcreek - I would be interested to know the difference between american and barbados blackbelly. I was hoping you may know. Maybe the barbados are known to be more skittish than american? You are the first person I have ever talked to that said the blackbelly were less skittish than Katahdins. My Kats are like dogs they come up and want you to scratch them and they follow people around wanting attention. The barbados I have to trap them in the barn if I need to catch them for something.


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

Are the americans the ones with horns, sometimes used for hunting? Whereas the blackbelly is naturally polled and more domesticated?


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

I am not sure. I will have to do some researching to find out. All I know is that the ones I have were sold to me as "Barbados Blackbellies" but I am not sure exactly which they are right now.


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

Anyone with st. croix? I believe I might like them better than the katahdins. But the fact that the katahdins were developed by being crossed with st. croix makes me think of them as improved st. croix, lol. but I haven't heard or read such.


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## boothcreek (Jul 18, 2012)

Barbado seems to be slapped on any mutt sheep with horns and hair lately at auctions up here. At this point I see it as a "heinz 57" label. Seen a beauty kathadin ram last time I went and he had small horns growing and despite being white with brown splotches and clearly a kat he got sold as a barbado due to the horns(which sometimes happens in the breed).

There is the American Black Bellied Barbado - black and Tan badger markings and horns, usually registered/papered, there are unregistered ones but you should ask lots of questions then on background of the flock etc. This year the registry is still an open one so if you have a true breeding flock of ABBs get them registered @ BBSAI cause end of december 2012 it will close!!!! 
The real Barbado Blackbellie - Black and Tan badger markings, completely 100% polled, only available from registered breeders, very rare(last I read around 200 pure animals left or something to that effect).

Then there is the grey zone that has horns and is a hair sheep so its called barbado/blackbelly but doesnt fit into above categories. They are usually crossed with mouflon(Wild sheep) and can vary greatly in markings and temperament etc.

Those inbetween sheep I see lots labeled as either corsican or texas barbado, since they are nice and feral and do well on the shooting ranches so no one bothers breeding to a certain standard as long as they have horns. Usually an ABB X Mouflon and other various breeds, so they usually retain most of the badger markings but can be crazy like the mouflon(altho those vary too, my mouf ram is a calm one, my mouf ewe will commit suicide if you as much as look at her too long....) and vary in intensity of coat colour/markings(badger black and tannish or white bellies like moufs).

I hope that cleared some confusion


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

anyone with painted dessert sheep? they seem as good as the others except for being more flighty, right? Or are the other three breeds i've been considering more "improved"?


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## bonbean01 (Jul 18, 2012)

Do the sheep selector that Sheepgirl has on her signature...both common and uncommon, and that should help with your choice very much.


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

Painted dessert if I understand it right are just black bellies without traditional coloring...  I may be wrong though. 

Booth creek-  that did help!  Thanks for clearing that up


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

did the sheep selector...... katahdin is number one on the "common" one, and on the uncommon, Dorper came first( I guess there's a reason why they're among the most popular of the hair sheep) and also on the uncommon selector, Dorper was followed by Romanov? And then there was the blackbelly, st. croix and polypay as the next highest. Any one know anything about Romanov and polypay sheep?(even though it looks like I'll probably end up with kats. or dorpers now) I'm not sure I should have taken that, lol.(no, I'ts good sheepgirl)

Thanks,


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

Also came up next highest were the targhee and rambouillet sheep. Any info on these? I don't know if these shed naturally? Wow, the romanov sheep are amazing. Early maturing(3-4 months), quick growth and their lambing, the record is nine, six isn't rare, WOW, that's amazing. I told you it was a bad idea, I want some!!!!!!, lol....... I need to find out if these romanov shed naturally.


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

yes!!!! "Romanov Sheep have a dual coat, that sheds itself during the summer months, negating the need for costly, unprofitable shearing.  Romanov lambs are born with a black hair coat, and grow wool mixed in as they age.

Romanovs have a naturally short tail, that does not require docking.  Possibly because of this feature, I have never heard of a Romanov ewe prolapsing.

Romanovs have no wool on their face, head, legs, tail, belly, udder & anus, which makes lambing time much cleaner, and the lambs have no trouble finding their all-important first meal." yes!!!!!


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

but I wanted hair sheep


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## boothcreek (Jul 18, 2012)

Texas Dahl, Black Hawaiian, Desert Sand and Painted Desert Sheep are all created out of the Texas Barbado. Some farms liked them all black, some all white and some colourful and selected for said colours. In the last few years they actually got recognized as seperate breeds, but they are so new the registries are still open, so if you have black hawaiian looking sheep that throw black hawaiian looking offspring you can register them as such etc etc.

The painted deserts were originially bred out of the texas barbado, but you can get the occasional colour fault in the pure American Black bellies and start with that. My line of painteds started off that way, a breeder who I knew bred pure ABB for over 15 yrs with a closed herd had a ewe pop up with a blaze and white peppering on her back 4 yrs ago, I took her on a whim and she throws me coloured lambs most of the time. Paired her with my mouflon ram last year and she dropped a set of twins this spring one being painted and the other solid colour(could be classified texas barbado, but I rather just call it a mutt and throw it in my freezer )

So my painted deserts are just as calm as my ABBs, even the mouf X one.


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

I've read the romanov's are not for beginners.  I think they are high management sheep. Not exactly sure how accurate that is though. 

I am not sure if romanov's can even be found in US.  They are a pretty uncommon breed...


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

boykin2010 said:
			
		

> I've read the romanov's are not for beginners.  I think they are high management sheep. Not exactly sure how accurate that is though.
> 
> I am not sure if romanov's can even be found in US.  They are a pretty uncommon breed...


Well, that's almost a good thing, lol....I wanted hair sheep  And I definitively want a low maintenance breed, beginner or otherwise.

Thanks,


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

@ Boothcreek, how do you manage your sheep with so many breeds? Do you keep them all separate? or just keep the rams by themselves and run the ewes together?

Thanks,


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## AMT15 (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't believe I ever got an answer about which of your breeds is your fav.? Or maybe you don't have a fav.? that's why you have more than one breed.


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## boothcreek (Jul 18, 2012)

I love all my breeds equally, I dont think I could pick favorits.

The European Mouflon are just regal, and the way the rams change coat colours from summer to winter is just beautiful. And as the origin species of all domestic sheep I think its vital to preserve it in captivity.
They were what I originally wanted to keep but after 2 yrs of searching was unable to find a breeder. So then I looked for a breed of sheep closely related and found the Barbados, I read and researched myself silly on them and found that whole mess with american, barbados etc and decided on the american black belly(if there is something with a standard I want it, I love trying to breed to a goal).
2 weeks after getting my first American Black bellies I got  an email from a mouflon breeder only 5 hrs drive from me...... I said to heck with it I am getting my Moufs!!! So got a pair of them as well.

Usually I have all my breeds together, the Mouflons are very seasonal(end oct-mid nov) and the mouf ram is low ranking so he never gets a go with the ABB Girls unless I seperate him out with them. Now I am selectively breeding to certain rams so I watch when my alpha ram gets rather fond of a ewe I seperate her out with the ram I want her bred by and usually 2-3 days later she is in heat and getting bred.
Oct - Nov the Mouflons are seperated into their own pen.

The Girls are coming out of a multiple birth year stint so right now I seperated the rams out to give the girls a rest for a few months. They look great and are in perfect condition to be rebred, but it is taxing lambing every 6 months and you notice the numbers of twins/triplets go down to singles and twins. So a couple months rest, and maybe even a bit of syncing up the girls so they maybe get their lambs a bit closer together would  be nice.

The ABBs and Painteds reproduce much faster then the Mouflons tho, Moufs usually only single once a year.


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## boykin2010 (Jul 18, 2012)

I do want to say that sheep are very hardy even though other people will tell you otherwise. I have been reading what other people have been saying and its not true.  Get good stock and sheep are so easy to care for. I have never wormed my sheep and have never had one die either. *knocks on wood* 

I also want to say something about sheep being economical. Selling breeding stock has been great for me.  If not breeding stock, then lamb meat will always sell better. Ive never seen a meat goat sell more than a sheep of the same weight. I have never owned goats but my neighbor has them.  I also have sold sheep to 3 different people this year because they are getting rid of their goats because they can't keep them alive! 
Just remember you are asking people their opinions and everyone has one that is different. 

If you don't mind me asking, where are you from and what will your setup be like? 
Remember that sheep do better on pasture while goats prefer browse so depending on where you go you may not have a choice between sheep or goats.  

I wonder why some of the other sheep people aren't commenting?  Where is everyone?


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## bonbean01 (Jul 18, 2012)

I did comment before...we have Dorper/Kat crosses and just love them!  I tend to favour the Dorpers and husband favours the Kats...we have both and we love the cross of the two breeds.  So...guess my favourite are our sheep...LOLOL...if it was important to us to have purebred sheep, we've have to keep two herds.  This works out for us and we're really happy with our sheep breed choices 

Our preference for the breeds has nothing to do with quality or temperment or anything else...just their looks...both Dorpers and Kats have the traits that we wanted.


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## boykin2010 (Jul 19, 2012)

If you are interested in Katahdins and just want to look and see how close the nearest breeder is check out this website. Keep in mind that not all Katahdin breeders are listed here. Just the ones that are members to advertise and sell. I am a member under Ga. 

http://katahdins.org/ 

Click on KHSI Directory, Then choose your state and it will bring up a list of breeders in your state. Usually they will have websites where you can visit and see examples of their stock and learn.


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## AMT15 (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks for the replies and I'll check out that website. I am in Tennessee, but like I said we're looking to move, soooo......... Anyway, I hope to have everything very simple, not a big herd, probably just a simple three sided shelter and a rotational grazing setup is all. Should work? And yes, the deciding factor in which species I end up with will most likely be what type of land we end up with. And if it ends up suitable for sheep, well then, I'll probably end up eventually getting both. How about goat x sheep hybrids? will that be a problem?

Thanks,


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## ShadyAcres (Jul 19, 2012)

I raise White Dorper.  I started with a small flock (10 ewes) of a few Kats and the rest Kat / W Dorper mix.  The ewes were all bred to a W Dorper ram.  Because of the faster growth rate of the Dorper we eventually built up to a flock of Pure Bred W Dorper.  

In this area sheep sales are on the rise.  Pure Bred and Full Blood ewes are hard to find and priced high.  Many people start with a commercial flock (Kat / Dorper mix) and use a Dorper ram.  Good market for the ewe lambs as commercial breeding stock and ram lambs sold as market lamb.

Those who wanted consistency in the looks of their flocks used White Dorper, those that like the color variations used Black Headed Dorper as the ram.  

Having some ewes that are more Kat and some that are more Dorper gives you an idea what you like best.  Can breed up rather quickly from that if you so desire.  

Most of the people in this area that I know who had Blackbellies (and I am not sure what kind they had) eventually changed to either Kats or Dorpers.  While there were many aspects of the breed they liked, selling lambs were not as profitable.  Not as high a demand for breeding stock, market lambs smaller.   

Only knew of one person that had St. Croix.  She has a mixed commercial flock with SC, Kat and Dorper.  She now uses a Dorper ram and only kept some of the SC mix ewes.  She likes their personality better for training stock dogs (in certain stages).  Lighter  flightier  sheep.  

Decide what your purpose is.  Just a few to have around and enjoy?  Eventually move up to a larger flock and become a producer?  A friend told me the other day that when she first got into sheep an old man told her:  they are your sheep.  You are the one that will be looking at them every day.  Pick the one that makes you smile the most!


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## AMT15 (Jul 19, 2012)

Great advice. I do like the looks of the Barbados best, but then the wonderful qualities of the others (kats & dorpers) outweigh just looks. If you don't mind, what area of Tennessee are you in? I certainly do want something profitable, but yet without losing the fun, simple and enjoyable part of it. And also, do you agree with the st. croix and kats. being pretty much the same?
You all have been very helpful, thanks


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## boykin2010 (Jul 19, 2012)

The st Croix are smaller sheep. They are flightier also. I believe st Croix weigh about 85-120 full grown. Dorpers and Katahdins get much larger. But the Dorpers and Kats are not nearly as flighty. 

One reason I am culling most of my barbados and switching to Katahdin is the lack of diversity in the color. When I first started out I liked the badger look of the barbados but then when they have lambs it is never a surprise to what the lamb will look like. They will always be the same color unless you have painted desserts or another variation. Some people like them to all look alike but I like to be able to look outside and see a certain sheep from a distance and instantly know which sheep it is by its color or spot pattern.


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## EllieMay (Jul 19, 2012)

If all you're looking for is an EASY and LOW MAINTENANCE hair sheep, then I would highly recommend Katahdins!  

Second choice, of course, being Dorpers.

They both can be raised on pasture with no need to supplement (unless you're trying to put extra weight on them fast).

The Kats are a bit taller than the Dorpers and the Dorpers seem to have more meat.

If you want friendly sheep, simply train them like you would any animal (use treats).

When I feed my young lambs grain, I always call "Kitty, Kitty" and they all come running.
That makes it real easy for me when I need to move them.
I call "Kitty, Kitty" and they follow me anywhere.


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## AMT15 (Jul 19, 2012)

Oh yea, being able to raise them on pasture without supplemental feed is BIG. How do they do during the winter? You have to feed them then, right? And hay? Also, how about sheep x goat hybrids, is it possible?

Thanks,


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Jul 19, 2012)

AMT15 said:
			
		

> Oh yea, being able to raise them on pasture without supplemental feed is BIG. How do they do during the winter? You have to feed them then, right? And hay? Also, how about sheep x goat hybrids, is it possible?
> 
> Thanks,


Dont know about the other stuff but heres the jist on geeps (goat sheeps) lol

Goats and sheep have different chromozoynes, (or however you spell it), so while a goat can get frisky, chances are EXTREMELY low. However geeps HAVE been created, 1 is in london I remember,not sure of the others. I think theres been about 4 or 5 geeps EVER created if not less (well that is if someone had a sheep and didn't know it was a geep!), due to the chromozoyne difference.

I may be wrong so sorry if I am


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## boykin2010 (Jul 19, 2012)

You are pretty much right.  It is possible but is very very rare.  

I feed my Katahdins hay in the winter and only feed grain while they are lactating


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## ShadyAcres (Jul 19, 2012)

I have never had goats.  Never wanted them.  Had neighbors and friends with them growing up, and have neighbors and friends with them as an adult.  Goats are notorious escape artists  excellent fences a must.  They climb on your 4-wheeler and are constantly underfoot, always getting in to where they dont belong.

OK, maybe I am a little bit prejudice?   But you are in the sheep section.  If you asked the same question in the goat area (maybe you already have) you would get some pretty strong opinions on goats over sheep.  

I feed my sheep grain only when flushing, before lambing, and early lactation.  We have 70 acres so am able to rotate.  I do feed hay in the winter.  Typically round bales.  I also feed lambs after weaning.  

I have no personal experience with St Croix.  I believe they are similar to the Kats but probably a bit smaller or finer.  I have also seen some nice heavy muscled Kats as well so guess would depend on their breeding.

We are 1  hr south west of Nashville.


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## TexasShepherdess (Jul 20, 2012)

Sounds like OP, youve decided sheep may be an option..

I am partial to dorpers..many arent. Ive found them to be very docile creatures, are in high demand (probably, in my area, the highest of all the hairsheep, in regards to price commanded,ect) and taste great! I give my ewes a small handful of grain to keep them busy while I feed my guard dogs (I dont freefeed the dogs)..suppliment with hay and grain when needed..unfortunantly, our drought has forced me to do that more here recently..the pastures are dead..but even factoring that in..they dont need much..but perhaps my vision is colored by feeding cattle and horses for years? LOL

Mine are hardy, even in our awful heat, are pretty smart and, as I said, simply dont take much to maintain. they dont get out like my goats used to, they dont JUMP on everything like goats do, they dont sound like annoying whining like goats do..no dehorning (with dorpers) like goats. They are a win win..for me at least.


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## Beekissed (Jul 26, 2012)

Put me down for Katahdins and Kat/St. Croix cross....love them both but prefer the Kats.  I'm not too impressed with the Dorpers...find them to be too short and not have the great personalities of the Kats.


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## RemudaOne (Jul 26, 2012)

I can't speak to the Kats or St. Croix as I've never owned them, but I'm very happy with my Dorpers. At this point, in my area anyway, you will get the greatest rate of return for your investment with Dorpers. Even if you're just having them as pets, I'm assuming you're not planning to keep every lamb that your ewes have so you'll have to sell at some point. My small flock (12 including ram) is all pretty friendly. There are two that won't just walk up to me when I'm in the pasture. The others all come to me to see what's up. 

As for goats, I didn't consider them due to seeing our neighbor's goats escaping frequently and I have been told that they dont mother as well as hair sheep and may just walk off and leave a newborn kid, I didn't want to have to be concerned about those kinds of issues and hair sheep are a good fit there. When I first got my flock, my neighbor told me that he thought sheep were "stupid". I don't agree with that but I did tell him that I'd rather have a "stupid" sheep IN my pasture than a "smart" goat OUT on the road........

My philosophy with livestock is this...... It takes just as much money to feed a cheaper sheep, goat, horse as it does a good one that will earn you more money, so I look for the best investment. Luckily for me, the dorper fits that bill AND the bonus is that I enjoy being around and working with them as well. 

Here's a sample 






Good luck with your decision, I'm sure you'll enjoy whichever you choose


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## AMT15 (Jul 26, 2012)

Good pic! I was thinking of which is best for protecting the livestock, dog or donkey? I was thinking donkey because they could eat the same thing as the sheep ect., but I don't really know. Anyone?


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## boykin2010 (Jul 26, 2012)

Take this from someone who has had experience with both...  DOG! 
I had a livestock guardian donkey but she was a pain. You have to pay for wormer and hoof trimmings plus worry about her stepping on lambs and kicking you. They are really aggressive around their food.  They eat a ton of hay.  Constantly escaping or doing something annoying.  

I have a Great Pyrenees now and he is the best thing I could ever ask for.  Gentle with small children and the lambs. Keeps predators away. Doesn't hurt anybody.  I worm him once a month and feed him in the morning.  He is so good with the lambs and is very respectful of the space for the ewe and newborn lambs.  Definitely go with a dog...


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## AMT15 (Jul 26, 2012)

LOL, great to know. thanks,


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## gruberguy (Jul 26, 2012)

Yes, DEFINETALY get a dog! We love our great pyrenees's, although I can't speak for the others. They patrol our 5 acres all night, stayed RIGHT beside a young ram who got his head stuck in wire. Simply, they are great!

  As for sheep... I started off my small herd with barbado ewes and ram. Ram turned VERY agressive, so he is now a taxidermy mount (2 curls) in my living room! I then switched to Katahdin. Love the color mixes between the two, both are fairly friendly (will eat treats from hand, but only the Kat ram likes to be petted). Both have had simliar numbers of lambs. But, I think I like the bigger size of the Katahdins. Which is why I am looking to add some dorpers in the next few years. They seem to sell better, and for more in my area (Oklahoma).

 From what I've read, overall the dorpers are "friendlier" as well.


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## eweinHiscare (Aug 12, 2012)

hello, i'm new here to the BYH board.  I learned alot about the hair sheep here, enough to realize it was time for me to make the switch from goats.

I love the dairy goats, it's just that they do seem to take more care and the fences have to be in perfect condition or else they will notice the weakness and start trying to get
over them..  
Right now the last two of my dairy goats which I will keep for awhile are in a small pasture instead of out where they used to be.
The hot wire had gotten overgrown and they had trashed the fence standing on it and stripping the bark off trees on the other side.

Now the Katahdin sheep are out in the big pasture..in the center...eating GRASS !!  I have plenty of grass, they must be having the time of their life, none have wasted any time trying to get 
through the fence.

The Katahdin sheep seem to be doing well so far, I've had them about  a month now.  

I will save so much money not having to buy all those bags of goat feed which the goats needed even in summer.
The goats were horribly wasteful of their hay.  That hurts when the hay I bought was $5. / bale and even more.

So I would recommend hair sheep if you have pasture!
Christine


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## Queen Mum (Aug 12, 2012)

My fences are not perfect.  They are not without holes.  I have goats.  They rarely leave through the holes.  They are easy keepers.  I love them.  They browse.  They don't shed.  They are worm resistant.  I milk them.  They follow me everywhere.  I have had an American Blackbelly ram.  (just one).  If he was an example of the breed, he was a lovely boy and never rammed me.  I had no trouble catching him.  

IMHO, it isn't the breed, or the species.  It's what you need, for what purpose.  And whether you like them or not depends on you and the animal, the time you put in choosing the animal and the time you put in raising him/her/them.


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