# Do lines matter when buying a puppy?



## TAH (Aug 14, 2017)

I now have permission from dad to start looking at future puppies for sale.... 

I have found one breeder that seems to be a very reputable breeder.

She has been breeding dogs since 1979 and has kept some very strong lines, she has very healthy dogs, all tested for hips, eyes, elbows, heart something (not remembering the name right now), etc. So I am going to contact her and see if her dogs seem to be what she says they are.

So the right breeder should be able to pick a puppy that will fit in with what we need no matter what there lines are (she is breeding for shows), right? 

So will be a problem that her dogs are not raised around animals and haven't been ever, she shows her dogs so they aren't farm dogs, I guess you could say.  But then @BrendaMNgri I think it was you that said you raised  SMs that were show lines and they turned out to be great lgds? 

I am just nervous and want a dog that is going to work out for us. 

I am thankful I have a dad that is on the same stand as me and is willing to buy a good puppy and not from someone who just breeds there dogs. 

I saw the other day a bernese puppy for sale and he was 12weeks old... I was going to tell dad when I read further... Turns out the dogs dad has hip dysplasia, and they were averting this pup as a puppy that some day would be a good breeder... Also he was 1200 dollars.


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## Baymule (Aug 14, 2017)

I don't show dogs nor do I raise them. If I were paying a lot of money for a puppy I think I would want it to come from working lines. What breed are you looking at?


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## TAH (Aug 15, 2017)

Baymule said:


> I don't show dogs nor do I raise them. If I were paying a lot of money for a puppy I think I would want it to come from working lines. What breed are you looking at?


I would buy from working lines if I could find some... I am getting a bernese puppy has a farm dog. 

I am willing to import a dog from Canada or the lower 48 if need be but if if doesn't matter what lines they come from I won't bother bringing up a pup. 

Alaska sadly has such a small amount of breeders it is hard to decide... I found one farm that breeds bernese here but they breed dogs with health issues, temperament issues, etc. Sadly.

I think I will go ahead and contact them breeder and ask her... If she is reputable she should hopefully be able to tell me.


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## TAH (Aug 15, 2017)

Baymule said:


> I don't show dogs nor do I raise them. If I were paying a lot of money for a puppy I think I would want it to come from working lines. What breed are you looking at?


I would buy from working lines if I could find some... I am getting a bernese puppy has a farm dog. 

I am willing to import a dog from Canada or the lower 48 if need be but if if doesn't matter what lines they come from I won't bother bringing up a pup. 

Alaska sadly has such a small amount of breeders it is hard to decide... I found one farm that breeds bernese here but they breed dogs with health issues, temperament issues, etc. Sadly.

I think I will go ahead and contact them breeder and ask her... If she is reputable she should hopefully be able to tell me.


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 15, 2017)

OK as I am infamous for doing, let me toss a wrench into the soup.

Some of the very greatest guardian dogs I have had the honor of owning, came from SHOW LINES - out of International World Champions no less, who were raised in a pack, but no livestock.  When they arrived here from Europe, they were immediately immersed in my existing pack of LGDs and introduced to livestock over a long period of time.  They bonded exceptionally well. I have a pup here now, just over 1 year old.  Show lines - OFA tested parents for hips and elbows of course - she is glued to my sheep and cattle.  I mean bombproof already and not even two years old yet. Quality shows. You can't stifle it and you can't dampen it. It is in the genes of good dogs and good bloodlines.  Bad ones, ones that have been outcrossed on non-LGD breeds - forget it.

I would buy a quality pup and pay more from a non-working line, if the breeder was forthright, transparent, honest and offered health guarantees, than I would from some Johnny come lately backyard "working breeder" who just shows up all of a sudden and offers no breeder support, no health guarantees, does not do required vaccinations and wormings, and cannot show me that they know their stuff.  And God knows in the LGD world, there are truckloads of these kinds of "breeders" who have cropped up in the past three years. They offer nothing but a puppy and disappear as quick as their check clears. Is that what you want?  Really?  Think on this!

Bottom line is this: YOU will become the pup's parent, @TAH and YOU will take over the training and nurturing of that pup. You help it become what it will be. Ask for references too. If the breeder has none, you need to reflect on that - big time!


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## TAH (Aug 23, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> OK as I am infamous for doing, let me toss a wrench into the soup.
> 
> Some of the very greatest guardian dogs I have had the honor of owning, came from SHOW LINES - out of International World Champions no less, who were raised in a pack, but no livestock.  When they arrived here from Europe, they were immediately immersed in my existing pack of LGDs and introduced to livestock over a long period of time.  They bonded exceptionally well. I have a pup here now, just over 1 year old.  Show lines - OFA tested parents for hips and elbows of course - she is glued to my sheep and cattle.  I mean bombproof already and not even two years old yet. Quality shows. You can't stifle it and you can't dampen it. It is in the genes of good dogs and good bloodlines.  Bad ones, ones that have been outcrossed on non-LGD breeds - forget it.
> 
> ...


Thank you Brenda for the reply... I ended up finding your article on it and refresh my mind. Lol.

I totally am not going for a "backyard" breeder. And my dad is on the same page. Nice when head of household agrees.

Plans for us have taken a huge turn and it looks like great Pyrenees are on my side this time... We are going to be moving to 9-acres and will have plenty of work for a pair to do.

But this means shipping in some pups, I may be coming to Oregon next year (for a wedding) and maybe able to look at some puppy's, and if all goes well they could fly home with me.

I might be able to find a pair up here, we will see... The other day I saw poodle great Pyrenees mix pups... So stinking cute but of course not what I should be getting, husky great Pyrenees pups being sold as "lgds" at 7-weeka...  Not even been around livestock, ever.

Now tho I have never trained a lgd only family dogs and am wondering if already trained is better or puppies?


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 24, 2017)

POODLE x Great Pyrenees? Husky x Great Pyrenees? Huskies having huge prey drive and all….gads.
Mother of Mercy. Will it ever end?
 
My advice - not that you asked for it - wait till you move onto your place.
Get it fenced and fenced GOOD. Get your stock. Then cross the LGD river.
There is no answer to your question "already trained or puppies".
It depends on you and your patience and time you are willing to invest.
Puppies of course taking more time to lay the groundwork.
But pre-trained comes with it's own load of work and time needed to acclimate.

OK back into my writing hole. I am submitting the second part of my book proposal by noon
tomorrow - GULP.  This has been worse than a full term pregnancy!  LOL!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 24, 2017)

Then there is the flip side-
Last year I was looking for a Kuvasz- I love the Kuvasz but I loved the Kuvasz from the 80's.... yeah 2016-2017 is not the same.
The breeders in the states are trying to breed out the LGD from the dog so they are all pets. 
So what they consider for a LGD is a wild uncontrollable dog- yep- that would make a great "LGD". 
*NOT!*


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 24, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Then there is the flip side-
> Last year I was looking for a Kuvasz- I love the Kuvasz but I loved the Kuvasz from the 80's.... yeah 2016-2017 is not the same.
> The breeders in the states are trying to breed out the LGD from the dog so they are all pets.
> So what they consider for a LGD is a wild uncontrollable dog- yep- that would make a great "LGD".
> *NOT!*



I ran into so many problems like this when looking for a better breed of LGD it's not even funny anymore. Why would you breed out the LGD????


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## Southern by choice (Aug 24, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> I ran into so many problems like this when looking for a better breed of LGD it's not even funny anymore. Why would you breed out the LGD????



I know- I also am having a hard time finding an Anatolian- NOT that I am realllly looking. 
I do not like a female to have a foxy face- or snippy face- I do not ant a little dog.... they need to be large and powerful- like they are suppose to be.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Aug 24, 2017)

I agree! There are so many variations within the Anatolian I gave up on trying to find consistency. That is why I went where I did. 


Southern by choice said:


> I know- I also am having a hard time finding an Anatolian- NOT that I am realllly looking.


Not trying to find one... sure...


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## TAH (Aug 25, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> POODLE x Great Pyrenees? Husky x Great Pyrenees? Huskies having huge prey drive and all….gads.
> Mother of Mercy. Will it ever end?
> 
> My advice - not that you asked for it - wait till you move onto your place.
> ...


Omg, I know it is not funny... One of the pups sold last year is being sold because he chases livestock... The third puppy I have seen come up for sale this year. 

Oh, any advice is welcome! 

Me and my dad were talking it over today and we will be doing 4-foot field fencing with 2-strands of electric fence. Will that be sufficient enough? I have always used normal field fencing. 

I am pretty sure I have the patience to work with a puppy as I know my dad does. I know I have a lot of learning to do! 



Southern by choice said:


> Then there is the flip side-
> Last year I was looking for a Kuvasz- I love the Kuvasz but I loved the Kuvasz from the 80's.... yeah 2016-2017 is not the same.
> The breeders in the states are trying to breed out the LGD from the dog so they are all pets.
> So what they consider for a LGD is a wild uncontrollable dog- yep- that would make a great "LGD".
> *NOT!*


Yeah, just about, sadly most end up at the shelter and are so far that they put then down.


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 27, 2017)

_"I do not like a female to have a foxy face- or snippy face- I do not ant a little dog.... they need to be large and powerful- like they are suppose to be."_


SBC: A buckaroo friend of mine in California who is a saddle maker and makes the spiked _carlanca_ protective collars for a lot of commercial sheepmen told me he had a discussion with a big commercial producer the other day about what is happening to LGDs in America (and in such a short time.) He said the producer breeds his own LGDs but has become so disgusted with the "downsizing" of dogs he sees going on. He said the guy blamed hobby farmers breeding substandard specimens like "cash cows." He said the guy says he has to hunt to find substantial dogs now because everything is getting too light, too short, too small. 

I totally hear you on Anatolians and that's just one breed example. My two AnatolianxMaremma boys are huge - 160 pounds each, Pak is 36 ½ at shoulder, Pala a tad shorter. They came off a big Elko County sheep operations. Their dam was a Maremma. I saw their sire, a huge, pure white Anatolian with a head on him like a watermelon. Thick bone. Height. Substance. None of this 65-80 pound when soaking wet stuff. They can hold their own. LGDs are supposed to be powerful, substantial dogs - how else are they to deter predators if they get engaged in a conflict? LGDs that are too light, too small, don't stand a chance. Sure they can move, and travel, but if they have to defend themselves let alone their stock, they are not going to last long against a feral dog pack, coyote pack, let alone wolves, lion, bear….


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## Southern by choice (Aug 27, 2017)

@BrendaMNgri   today  I saw this-

_"Looking for a purebred mature unspayed female working Great Pyrenees. Send me pictures, info about her, and price. Thank you!!"_

My interpretation- call me cynical-
"I want an intact female that I can mill and make money off of selling puppies."

Like I said, I am cynical.
I try to give the benefit of the doubt but lets just say I see this far too often.

As far as the smaller dogs- there are alot of small dogs because of improper breeding yes, but I think many never reach their potential because they are not dewormed properly or fed properly.
Most go by what their pet vet tells them. 

There is room for the smaller dogs (which is a good thing considering there are so many small dogs)  Here in our region coyotes and stray dogs are the largest predators. 

This is the head I want on my pyrs!     at 6 months 98 lbs- full grown 160lbs


 

_

 
_


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 27, 2017)

Beeeeutiful!


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## Baymule (Aug 27, 2017)

Good points @BrendaMNgri   I have one of those 67 pound female GP's and our male is just over 100 pounds. Some day I will want another dog or two. Guess what? I won't be breeding mine.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 27, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Good points @BrendaMNgri   I have one of those 67 pound female GP's and our male is just over 100 pounds. Some day I will want another dog or two. Guess what? I won't be breeding mine.


That's because you are being responsible  You took her in, worked with her, and gave her a home. She's on the smaller side and you are aware of that and are doing the right thing by not breeding her. I is very sad, there are so many pyrs and other LGD's that are so tiny. So many breeding to make a buck and just don't care.


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## Baymule (Aug 27, 2017)

Thank you GW. The lady that gave her to us said they bought her from a place where there were pens and pens of Great Pyrenees. Sounds like dog hell to me.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 27, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Thank you GW. The lady that gave her to us said they bought her from a place where there were pens and pens of Great Pyrenees. Sounds like dog hell to me.



The thing is pyrs do have a range and the breed standard really gives a variance.  
Those on the smaller side can still work but within limitations.

IMO Paris is perfect regardless of her weight... she has the best owners and she is a great dog. She does her job.
@Baymule  our Amy is short but heavy 120lbs  and powerful- NOTHING messes with her... I thing our males are intimidated by her.. short stuff is a force to be reckoned with. 

Standard-
Life span: 10 – 12 years
Temperament: Affectionate, Strong Willed, Fearless, Gentle, Patient, Confident
Height: Male: 28–32 inches (70–82 cm), Female: 26–29 inches (65–74 cm)
Weight: Male: 110–120 lbs (50–54 kg), Female: 80–90 lbs (36–41 kg)


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## Baymule (Aug 27, 2017)

Thank you @Southern by choice . We love Paris, she does a great job of caring for the sheep and chickens. She is an awesome dog and puts her heart into what she does.


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## Mike CHS (Aug 27, 2017)

I didn't know the females were generally that much smaller.  I thought our Maisy was smallish but seeing the weight range she is pretty much within the normal range at 79 lbs. She conveniently went into the chute the other day and stepped on the livestock scale.


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 28, 2017)

I do realize, my opinion of what constitutes "big" is totally warped from running, breeding and owning 32"- 38" tall 170-240 pound Spanish Mastiffs. 
Out here in NV the LGDs tend to be rangy, leggy, thick boned, tall, big, solid dogs. But we have big country, big predators.
I'd say the average LGD I see out here is easily 150 pounds.


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## Baymule (Aug 28, 2017)

Well at least I don't have bears and cougars to worry about. Paris is in the bantam weight class, but she's sure death on snakes!


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 28, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> I do realize, my opinion of what constitutes "big" is totally warped from running, breeding and owning 32"- 38" tall 170-240 pound Spanish Mastiffs.
> Out here in NV the LGDs tend to be rangy, leggy, thick boned, tall, big, solid dogs. But we have big country, big predators.
> I'd say the average LGD I see out here is easily 150 pounds.


Pyrs in general aren't usually that big, but @Southern by choice has some absolutely huge pyrs, the largest I've seen. Proper deworming and feeding plays a huge role. 
Her Anatolians are massive as well.


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