# HELP! Having Trouble Deciding! (with pics)



## mikiz (May 27, 2015)

So I've narrowed it down to 3 breeds I want to keep, 2 are hair breeds and one is a wool breed:

Damara
Wiltshire Horn
Cheviot 

I want to at least attempt to milk, and obviously have meat, however I'm undecided about wool, but don't think it would be a bad thing to have as an extra. I want to be able to use all of the animals I slaughter so the horns are a plus when it comes to using skulls on the hair sheep, but not good for wool, so Cheviots are polled. I really do like the look of Wiltshires and Cheviots, but I want the colour of the Damaras for killer sheep because I utilise the hides. 

I want as low maintenance as I can get, so year-round breeding isn't a priority, and I know how to shear so that's not a big deal either, just a bit more work, but I'd be getting wool out of it once a year. All are flystrike and worm resistant.
A good return is a plus though, and all three breeds have majority multiple births and strong mothering instincts. 

I can crossbreed the two hair breeds, but I don't know how to fit the third breed in without keeping an entirely separate flock which means I would have to have twice as many paddocks, which is more work. And also considering the ease of moving the sheep, Damaras have excellent flocking ability, whereas Wiltshires are friendly and trainable, but I don't know about Cheviots.

I don't know what hair sheep taste like either, unless that's what they use in the shops. One of my friends raises mixed breed wool sheep and says that hair sheep just don't taste right. (I have a feeling that sheep taste like sheep)I've also heard it said that hair breeds you don't have to castrate the killer ram lambs because they don't develop a bad taste in the 5-6 months they're alive? But then I suppose wool breeds couldn't taste all that bad by 6 months surely? 

The land I'm looking for will have enough pasture for minimal assisted feeding, so pasture year round. The area's climate ranges from dry 30*C in summer to soggy wet below 0*C in winter. Sometimes frost. So I'm worried about the hair sheep getting too fat even on pasture, as they're more suited to sparser forage diets. 

What I'm actually asking is if anyone has any insight to the pros and cons of each of these breeds? Will the wool breed do "better" on lush pasture year round than the hair sheep? 
Help?


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## promiseacres (May 28, 2015)

Not familiar with these breeds but wool type breeds have a distinct taste due to the lanolin in the wool. Hair sheep is milder and what my family prefers.  Look at rate of gain also if looking to butcher, if not a true meat breed you may have to feed longer to get a reasonable amount of meat. Another factor needs to be how easily it is to get breeding stock in your location.  Transportation can be costly.


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## purplequeenvt (May 28, 2015)

I only have limited experience with Cheviots and none with the other 2 breeds. From my experience, Cheviots tend to be very high-strung/spooky animals and their wool isn't the best. 

Did you pick these breeds because you like what you've read about them or because you've worked with them before? Are they easily found in your area or at least within a traveling distance you are comfortable with?

As far as I'm aware, none of those breeds are generally used for milk. 

There's a huge debate among sheep growers over the flavor of hair vs. wool sheep. 

What I've heard is that less lanolin = milder flavor. I raise long (coarse) wool sheep and I love the flavor. I actually prefer the older sheep (mutton) flavor and we've eaten 6+ years old sheep.


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## mikiz (May 28, 2015)

I picked them because we have no real milking sheep in Aus that I know of. Awassi and Katahdins are about the only breeds and they're IMPOSSIBLE to find. 
I figured if they have multiples they should have enough milk, and I'd select for good udders as I went along (or give up and get a goat). I really like the horns, shape, and temperament of Wiltshires, and they're much more accessible, as are the Damaras, who are flighty and very wary. According to some breeders nothing phases a Wiltshire. I'd probably just cross out some Wiltshire ewes to a Damara ram for the colour. 
Only issue with that^ is that Wilts are EXPENSIVE. $200+ for a ewe and $400+ for a ram and that's only commercial grade, stud grade is even higher, whereas I can get Damaras for $100 each. So would I be better off selecting a few nice friendly Damara ewes and outcrossing to a Wilt for horns and friendliness? 

I haven't enquired about the Cheviots yet but I know there are studs in the country, I like their size and clean extremities, and the hardiness. They're said to grow extremely quickly, which would be a good turnover for me. But if they're genetically flighty that might prove to be a bit of a hassle. According to the breed websites, Cheviot wool is very fine, they're supposedly used for crossing to merinos and can be used for near-skin garments as well as being hardy enough for rugs, which to me seems a bit contradictory? I probably wouldn't be inclined to use a wool breed for milk though, so they would only be wool/hides and meat.

The problem with breed representation associations is that they list NONE of the true cons to these animals, and they play them up to make them seem like pros. 
Pretty sure the taste won't really bother me either way, I love really "sheepy" meat, as well as more mild lamb.


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## mikiz (May 28, 2015)

Since no thread is complete without pics!
This might give a better idea why I can't decide.
Wiltshire are regular meat sheep, Damara are a hardier drought style fat-tailed meat sheep, they come horned or polled, and Cheviots are supposed to be a dual meat/wool sheep.

Wiltshire






Damara





Cheviot





(note none of these pics are mine, just courtesy of a Google search)


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## animalmom (May 29, 2015)

Wow!  That is a problem worthy of BYH... I like the look of those Wiltshire husky lads, and the Cheviot mom and lamb are just adorable and the Damara are so colorful... they look like mischief looking for a place to happen.  Glad I'm not in your shoes as I'd end up with all three varieties and the pay merry hob making it work.

Keep us posted with what you decide, please and thank you.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (May 29, 2015)

x2!


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## OneFineAcre (May 29, 2015)

The Damara almost look like goats
They are all very nice


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## norseofcourse (May 29, 2015)

Being on the second year of experimenting with milking my sheep, I'd lean towards the Wiltshire for a couple reasons - their nice build, but mostly their temperament.  If they truly are that calm, it should be much easier to milk them.  But I'd check out some of each breed in person, since not all animals behave as their breed is 'supposed to'.

Wiltshire ewes to a Damara ram sounds like a cross worth considering for all the reasons you're wanting sheep.


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## purplequeenvt (May 30, 2015)

I'd try to find the breeds you are interested in and visit them to get a better idea of their qualities. 

I'm in the US so when I talk about Cheviots, I could be talking about a completely different breed, so to speak. In my experience, Cheviots tend to be high strung. AUS Cheviots might not be. 

Question, you talked about the hassle of 3 breeds being that you'd need double the paddocks. Are you planning on pasturing each breed separately? We have 5 breeds and they all live together. Granted, they are all wool sheep. I've heard that hair sheep will shed their hair and the little stiff hairs will get into a wool sheep's fleece, reducing it's value. 

I'm thinking that you will be disappointed with the amount of mik that you'll get from those breeds. A lot of labor for a little return. You could definitely try breeding up to a milkier sheep though. It could be a near project. 

There is only 1 sheep in our barn that it would be worth milking and she is 1/4 Friesian.


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## mikiz (May 30, 2015)

Only reason I considered milking sheep is that they're easier to keep contained than goats, and aren't as large as cows. I also have an intolerance for cow's milk, but not really a fan of goats milk. The only thing I really use milk for is potato mash or the odd bowl of cereal so I don't need a lot.  The Wilt ewe's udders look almost like goats, and they rarely have single lambs so if they make enough milk to support multiple lambs I assumed they would have plenty to milk out. But having said that I could scrap the milking altogether and just have them for meat and hides/wool.

The reason I would be keeping them separate would be to prevent crossbreeding when I have to have a ram in with the girls. If I wanted to breed either type pure I'd have to somehow keep them separate at least during breeding season. 

The concern I have with the Damaras is that they are a drought hardy sheep, which means the girls might get severely overweight on good pasture and end up difficult to breed. They're probably more suited to arid desert country like the place they originated. 
From what I can find on Wilts, they're good on both grassy or browse type pasture, and are easily trained to come when called. 

I was considering scrapping the wool breed altogether until I work out what I want to do, I'm sure I will be handed some bum lambs at some point! 
I could get a few damara ewes and a few wilt ewes and breed them to the opposite ram and keep what I like out of them. I can always cross to a wool ram of any sort one year when I want meat and don't intend on keeping any ewe lambs, that's mainly to have coloured woolly hides for tanning. At this rate I will probably just get a few of all three and decide which ones I like best! Since breeds on paper are never the same as the real life personalities. 

Will certainly keep you updated when I finally know what I'm doing!


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## SheepGirl (May 30, 2015)

Here is what I gather thus far:

* You don't drink a lot of milk, but you want the option of milking one or two ewes for your occasional use. You can keep a couple of each breed of the ewes and rotate the rams every year. Maybe 2-3 ewes of each breed and then just purchase a Damara ram one year breed everybody, get a Wiltshire ram the next, breed everybody, and then lastly rotate in the Cheviot. Keep the purebred ewe lambs as replacements (so you will replace 1-2 ewes of each breed every 3 years) and sell off all of the crosses for meat. 

* You want to use all of the animal when you slaughter; hides & skulls are important. What will you do with horned skulls? Keep them accumulating around your house? Sell them? When lambs are at butcher weight, they won't have impressive horns. The big horns come from older sheep which may not taste very good (though @purplequeenvt disagrees ). And hides--colorful hides are pretty to look at, but they are just like a cowskin hide. Maybe think about wool sheep hides, they tend to be soft and luxurious and at butcher weight, lambs generally have enough wool to make nice soft sheepskins. IKEA sells small merino sheepskins for $100. Cowhides I believe go for less per sq ft.

* You want low maintenance sheep. Any sheep are low maintenance sheep, you just have to buy from the right breeder. The ultimate low maintenance sheep comes from someone who has been breeding the same stock for 3-4 generations on only grass, no added feed (hay or grain), and does nothing to help with lambing. Obviously that is on the extreme of extensive management, sometimes you do want to manage intensively, for example, with nutrition to make sure there are no nutritional deficiencies in the flock leading to weak or dead lambs at birth. IMO breeds should not be advertised as worm or fly strike resistant. It is dependent on the genetics and the breeder continuing to select for the genetics of worm resistance. If it isn't selected for, then slowly the trait goes out the window. And as for fly strike resistance--I don't buy into that. Merino breeders in Australia are selecting for it, but that's like selecting for traits that prevents a bear from eating a lamb. You can't have genetics protect you from something eating you alive. It's not like the skin will produce poison to kill the maggots before they eat into the lamb's flesh. You can select for traits to reduce the probability of getting flystrike (such as fewer wrinkles), HOWEVER, I had a babydoll x lamb get fly strike and she's not of a wrinkly breed cross. It's mainly in management. It's kind of funny because I had banded her and her twin sister's tail at the same time and she was the only one to get fly strike. Whodathunk. Okay, rant over lol.

* Prolificacy IME is related to nutrition. There are some breeds that have specific genes for prolificacy (such as the Booroola Merino and I think some strains of Icelandics) or even multiple genes in very distinct, ancient breeds (think Romanov or Finn). But with all other breeds, as long as there is ample nutrition 2-3 weeks before breeding through 2-3 weeks after breeding, ewes will ovulate more eggs and be able to sustain the pregnancy with more fetuses when given good feed (Google flushing). Prolificacy is a lowly heritable trait genetically speaking. Again mothering instincts is related to how well the breeder selects for this trait in their flock, not the breed as a whole.

* You can house all three breeds together, you can cross all breeds together. I don't know much about Damaras or Wiltshires, but I have a Cheviot ewe who is somewhat aloof, though she was a bottle baby and none of the other sheep like her too much since she isn't "one of them" (I think they know she wasn't born here because they liked the other bottle babies and they integrated into the flock pretty well). She and the goat mainly stay off to themselves. All sheep will come with a bucket of grain! My ewes who have been on a dry lot for months eating hay will sometimes lift the gate off the hinges and go out to the grass, which they LOVE. However, as soon as I shake the grain bucket, they come running!

* I haven't ever eaten lamb or mutton, so I can't offer input on the taste. I had a family at work buy my yearling Finn x Dorset ram, but I don't think they ate him yet.

* Pasture year round is great. Wool sheep will get fat on pasture too if they don't have babies to raise.


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## mikiz (May 31, 2015)

Thanks Sheepgirl that's exactly the input I was hoping for!!

Depending on how well the horns grow, most skulls will be bleached and then maybe decorated for sale. The others from killer ewe lambs or wethers without good horns will probably go to the dogs. From what I've seen, Wilt horns will grow in fairly quickly, even a 6 month old lamb has the start of some good horns, if I castrate them I can have them until 8/10 months and test how much they grow. I think the two in the top photo are about a year old. Usually they have pretty massive horns by 3 years old so they must grow quite quickly.
For example:
This is a 3 month old pure Wiltshire horn ram lamb






And the same ram at 15 months




(pics courtesy of high-hedges-quainton - uk)

The woolly hides are why I can't decide on hair sheep or wool sheep, I don't _really_ want to be shearing every year but at the same time I know the wool sheep hides will sell much better, and I'll be keeping some for myself. As you say the hair sheep hides will be more like cow or goat hides. 

I don't really believe worm resistance has anything to do with flystrike resistance either, I'm not sure why that is on their website. Wilts are smooth bummed and unlikely to be messy like wool breeds so unless something went terribly wrong with the management I shouldn't think it's be very likely anyway. Damaras are fat tailed sheep so they're also supposed to be less likely to become flyblown. Not sure what a Chev's butt looks like but I suppose it would include crutching at some stage being woolly.

Looks like I'll still be going the way I had a feeling I would, and getting all three to cross and play around with! Maybe I can create my own milking, coloured, long wool, shedding breed! Kidding, that's too hard. I'll probably drop the milking for the sheep and just get a doe goat and a wether to keep her company. 
Highly considering now to do as you said and just use one ram of a different breed every year, keep a few back from the pure for replacement(or addition). 
I might start with just the two hair breeds and stabilise the horn and colour genetics and then cross the girls to a wool breed for meat babies. Perhaps not even the Cheviot, I just really like their clean extremities, makes shearing so much easier if I decide to get some ewes or keep back ewe lambs.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Jun 27, 2015)

you could have mixed breed flock and keep em together. unless you want to breed for specific breed and want to pick only one to focus on. personally I like variety and since ya want the meat, crosses can go to the freezer and no problem for anyone.
why not get some damara ewes and a Wiltshire ram? see if ya mind havin his upkeep and shearin cost etc of the wool and see how the lambs turn out. could be a nice meat cross and get your colorful hides to use.


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