# NEW conditioning and nutrition discussion.



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 19, 2011)

Hi: I loved this idea, but decided the old thread was getting to long and complicated. 

So I am starting a new thread for people to discuss over weight/underweight, nutrition questions.  

I recently visited with a couple who have been farming for 35 years and they highly recommended using a grain called steer fattener for gestating goats the last 30 days and all milking and growing kids. She said it has a higher fat content in it and really helps keep on the weight on her milking does, helps prevent pregnancy toxemia and works great with their growing kids. Although she was mixing it 50/50 with goat developer feed.  

Has anyone used this or familiar with this feed?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 19, 2011)

This was the original discussion: by n.smithurmond 

Didn't want to hijack another thread so I created a new one!  This is the post:

I'd like to join the discussion about condition in general.  I'd like to hear how everyone here balances having enough condition on a doe at kidding that when she starts stripping condition in early lactation you DON'T end up with a "walking skeleton," but yet your does are not so overconditioned as to cause kidding issues.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that it is darn tough in early lactation to put enough calories into a doe that she doesn't strip SOME condition without risking acidosis.  So you'd want them in decent enough condition at kidding that it's ok if they lose some condition in early lactation and you don't have to jeopardize the rumen by overfeeding grain.  Then you can focus on maintaining condition through lactation rather than trying to put it back on when they're producing.

The flip side of that, does that are overconditioned and have deposited large amounts of fat internally can be an equally disastrous situation.

Really, it seems to me that the goal shouldn't so much be going into kidding in good condition, it should be going into late GESTATION in good condition.  If you've hit the 30 day (prior to) mark and then start trying to put weight on a doe you could end up with a still skinny doe and enormous kids because they're putting all the nutrition into the growing fetus.

I'd love to hear more about everyone's approach to maintaining ideal condition throughout a single cycle of a doe's dry/open, gestating, lactating/open, lactating/gestating, dry/pre-kidding status.  This is (or should be) different for every doe so I'm not talking about quantities of feed here... but when do you typically see does having a harder time maintaining the ideal and how do you handle it?  What types of feed do those extra calories come from?  When are you most concerned with nutritional disorders (ketosis, hypocalcemia, etc.) and how do you adjust your feeding to handle that?  This is a huge topic, but I'd love to hear some input on everyone's nutritional goals and management practices.

And also, because ideal condition is somewhat subjective, maybe we can have some pics of "under, ideal, over."  The reality is that most likely everyone's does are not ALWAYS in the condition the producer strives for (whether they're over or under) because a doe's needs are never constant and you have to adjust based on results.


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## Ariel301 (Apr 19, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Hi: I loved this idea, but decided the old thread was getting to long and complicated.
> 
> So I am starting a new thread for people to discuss over weight/underweight, nutrition questions.
> 
> ...


I would be interested in seeing how this works too. I just came across a product at our feed store called "Stock Builder" by Ace-Hi feed that is for fattening up livestock in general, it's 25% protein and 3% fat, but it's $20 for 50 pounds. Worth it to me if it would work on my skinny doe, though. The feed store owner said it was basically the same as Calf-Manna, which has increased her milk production, but nothing for her condition.


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## helmstead (Apr 20, 2011)

You have to be careful with protein supplementing.  In your whole ration, you don't want to go over 19% protein, or you're basically putting the goat on the atkins diet.

And, it's pretty hard to put condition on a lactating doe...add FAT.  Our lactation mix is 2 parts goat pellets, 1 part alfalfa pellets, and 1/2 part 36% mixer - with the feeds we use, crunching the numbers it comes to 18% protein, 3.5% fat and 18% fiber.  (the fiber is REALLY important).


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## Emmetts Dairy (Apr 20, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> You have to be careful with protein supplementing.  In your whole ration, you don't want to go over 19% protein, or you're basically putting the goat on the atkins diet.
> 
> And, it's pretty hard to put condition on a lactating doe...add FAT.  Our lactation mix is 2 parts goat pellets, 1 part alfalfa pellets, and 1/2 part 36% mixer - with the feeds we use, crunching the numbers it comes to 18% protein, 3.5% fat and 18% fiber.  (the fiber is REALLY important).


I agree!! I do basically the same with my lactating does.  Proper balance in goats diets is really important.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 20, 2011)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that is a lot different than the steer fattener, since the women was telling me it had high fat content in it.  This was a recent discussion and I haven't had a chance to get the feed lebel from the store.   Make sure when feeding cattle feed it doesn't contain Urea.


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## helmstead (Apr 20, 2011)

BOSS is a good, safe fat additive.  You can also use equine supplements, like Weight Builder, as a topdress.  These are dry supplements which are more palatable than adding a wet oil for our picky goats.

The key thing is really having that condition there before lactation.  Once a doe is in milk, pretty much everything you put in goes straight to the udder.

As far as kids go, creep feeding regular goat feed should be enough to keep them gaining really well.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 20, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> The key thing is really having that condition there before lactation.  Once a doe is in milk, pretty much everything you put in goes straight to the udder.


I agree 100%.  The caloric requirements of a doe in milk probably follows a curve inverse to the lactation curve.   They need to have enough padding prior to kidding to get them through the period of dramatically increased caloric requirement post kidding through the first or month of lactation because they're GOING to strip some weight during this time.  I want to see ours plump enough that they are able to strip early on and I don't have to stress about acidosis by pushing a ton of grain and they're still at a healthy weight as lactation progresses.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 20, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> BOSS is a good, safe fat additive.  You can also use equine supplements, like Weight Builder, as a topdress.  These are dry supplements which are more palatable than adding a wet oil for our picky goats.
> 
> The key thing is really having that condition there before lactation.  Once a doe is in milk, pretty much everything you put in goes straight to the udder.
> 
> As far as kids go, creep feeding regular goat feed should be enough to keep them gaining really well.


dose anyone know the percent of oil/fat in Boss?


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## PattySh (Apr 20, 2011)

Can you drizzle a little corn oil over a doe's grain like you would for horses to add a few calories? I have a doe who is a "light eater" doesn't like to finish her meal at the milk stand and is leary of new things added, wondering if I could stir in a bit of corn oil to add calories.''edited to addd: she'sstill  a bit thin after a rough kidding, not eating much for the week after, she is looking better I just want to see a few more pounds on her and no browse/pasture here yet. That picked her up instantly last year.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 20, 2011)

PattySh said:
			
		

> Can you drizzle a little corn oil over a doe's grain like you would for horses to add a few calories? I have a doe who is a "light eater" doesn't like to finish her meal at the milk stand and is leary of new things added, wondering if I could stir in a bit of corn oil to add calories.''edited to addd: she'sstill  a bit thin after a rough kidding, not eating much for the week after, she is looking better I just want to see a few more pounds on her and no browse/pasture here yet. That picked her up instantly last year.


there is nothing better than browse/pasture to help out those thinner goats after a long winter.  Yes, you can put some corn oil on her feed. 

I use leftover deep fryer oil from frying turkeys and use as a top dress, goats seem to love it.


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## Ariel301 (Apr 20, 2011)

I wouldn't be using the high protein feed as a sole grain ration, it would be blended with the normal grain to add more of everything. I've given this doe up to a cup of corn oil a day, and she's on 2 pounds per milking of grain, plus all the alfalfa pellets and hay she wants. She's been a skeleton for the two years I have had her. Always anemic, never wormy, never gains weight. I bought her at 6 years old, she's 8 now. She may have been a cocidiosis baby, I don't know her history.


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## helmstead (Apr 20, 2011)

That's too bad.  I've got an aged Nubian doe who is a notoriously hard keeper...especially when she's in milk (but she milks over a gallon a day still at 8 years old).  But when she's dry...she keeps a really decent topline.

Cocci baby wouldn't surprise me - they almost never get to where they can absorb enough nutrition to be in good shape.  My cocci baby Nubian, Tiny, who I bought as a bred yearling - FINALLY is holding weight well after a year of work.


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## PattySh (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks for the info re corn oil. I will add it to her food. She is a dainty little thing, oberhasli/alpine  but when pushed last year milked a gal and a pint at peak for several months. This year milking but not pushing her, milking just once a day til she gains some and she's milking  over 1/2 gal.


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