# When should I expect him to start acting like an LGD?



## jdywntr (May 23, 2013)

Our 9 month old GP pup has been outside full time for a while.  He is the only LGD and he was raised with our birds, chickens and ducks.  He is GREAT with the birds, even hatchlings but he doesn't seem protective at all and is kind of a wimp.  He runs away when people come over, I don't want him aggressive but I don't want him tucking his tail and running away.  Our landlord brought over their new puppy.  I tiny little chihuahua mix and he ran from it.  (we have small dogs so he is used to little)

We aren't able to keep him in with the birds as he busted through the fence (6' welded wire) the first few times I tried leaving him in there overnight.  So, his house is next to the coop and he has a him sized door to their area that is open at night.

He also doesn't bark.  Ever.  He did when he was in the birds area at night, about 1.5 acres fenced.  But he was barking because he wanted out.  

We have spoken with a few locals that have said they had males that took a while to come into their own.  Several people recommended getting a second but I don't want to until I get more livestock.

Any ideas, comments?


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## Southern by choice (May 23, 2013)

You said he is 9 months old at what age did you take ownership of him?

At 9 months he should be alert  and attentive. Cowering, running away etc is definitely not Characteristic of a Great Pyrenees in general regardless of it being "pet" quality or guardian quality. This is not desirable for any LGD.

There are a few thoughts but first I would want to know the answer to the above question and also where did he come from... by that were the parents actual working stock and if so what did they guard?


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## jdywntr (May 24, 2013)

we  got him at 8  weeks old.  he came from working parents that guarded goats and chickens.  he is somewhat attentive but the running away is what worries me.


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## Southern by choice (May 24, 2013)

It really sounds as though he a) has a confidence issue or b) is timid. Timidity in the Pyrenees is a major fault in the dog.

There are a few other things that knowing would be helpful.

Behavior of an animal is sometimes "just in the genes" and sometimes developed or underdeveloped by environment. 
It does not mean an owner "did something" wrong. I want to make that very clear.

This pup... how many were in the litter he came from?
At what age did he start showing this timid behavior?
When you saw him and got him at  8 weeks what were things you noticed?

example- playful, excessively shy, aloof, standing off, in the corner, how did he play/interact with the other pups?

when you brought him home... can you give detail of all you did with pup.... this is not a TEST   LOL... it just helps to grasp the individual dogs behavior issues. Most issues are linked back to early stages in development.

How old was the mother dog? Father dog? 

*I would not recommend this as of yet*, however, sometimes having a strong traited LGD can actually build the confidence and help a "lesser" dog.


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## woodsie (May 24, 2013)

My female was really lost when she was 6months old and we lost our older Pyr. She didn't bark, was super timid...I contacted the breeder and he said her grandfather didn't start barking until he was 10 months old. We did find a two year old male and she did much better with a lead dog to take her cues from and became much more confident...but I would take Southern's advice and try to see what the issue is before adding another dog. 

Our female started to really bark on her own and be more LGD like around 8 months, I would think by 9-10months you really should see the guardian come out...if not there may be something else going on. My neighbour's Pyr was doing a job by 6-7 months but it is in a real working role living with 400 goats full-time...so there is no confusion as to her role/job.

btw...Southern real cares about LGDs and her questions are for a reason, she is not judging you, she just needs some info to give useful advice. She really helped me when my dogs were being crazy and I was at my wits end.


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## jdywntr (May 24, 2013)

Thanks for the comments.  I am here for the advice of others so (unless very rude) I don't take offense to the help.  

We got him at 8 weeks, there were 8-10 in the litter I think.  I don't know the age of the parents but there was an older, full grown (2 year old) full sibling so mom and dad were probably 3-5 years old.  The pups were raised with no real human contact.  The owner went out to feed the goats and the dogs but left them to there devices.  They were on about 100 acres.  They had never been touched or handled before we saw them.  Any that we picked up would scream (okay yelp, cry) but none showed any aggressive rusponce to us.  We decided on Yukon (who was the runt but not by much) because he seemed to show the most confidence and didn't run away every time we approached.  

I had read up on choosing a pup and  knew I didn't want the most outgoing or the most timid but with the situation, it was difficult to decide.  There was no "normal" behavior as they were all just raised outside with their parents and the livestock. 

After the terrifying 2 hour ride home, he was left to try to relax.  I gave him a bath the next day but he was very unsure of the situation.  He was basically housebroken fromm the get go and had maybe 6-7 accidents in the house.

Here is where I usually get alot of differing comments.  :/ He stayed in the house until he was about 8 months old and went out every day to do "bird chores" with me.  He was not allowed to run or jump or play when we were in the birds area.  He was not allowed with the birds unsupervised.  We have 5 small dogs that he was raised with and he also watches out for them but they are inside and only go out to go to the bathroom or hang out if I'm outside.  We have a lot of predators (hawks, owls, coyotes, stray dogs/cats).

I don't know when he started showing this behavior specifically.  I noticed it when he started staying out at night.  So, I wasn't sure if it was a reactiont to the change in circumstance.  He tends to stay under the front deck during the day, it is the coolest spot outside.  He hasn't yet used his doghouse to sleep in but I find hin in various places in the morning.  I go out for bird chores at about 5 am due to my schedule and have found him on the back porch, out by the coop, the front porch, or not even seen him sometimes.  

He LOVES chicken and duck poop (yuck) but its kind of a reward for him.  He has been GREAT with the birds.  He's never even been interested in chasing.  I do have some ducks that are able to fly and they will sometimes fly out of their run.  I have watched him walk down past them and kind of turn them back around.  I don't know if this was on purpose or if it just happened that way. 

He has been outside during the day for about 3 months now.  We only started putting him out at night about 1 month ago.  I felt that he (as a pup) wasn't able to defend himself and could have been coyote bait if left out as a pup.  Also, since his charges are so much smaller, even a playful pup could kill them on accident.  

We have not heard any coyotes since he's been outside.  We also haven't seen any strays.  In the past, I have lost more chickens to neighbor's dogs than to any other predator combined.  (that problem was taken care of though) And I haven't lost any birds since he's been outside.

I hope that I answered everything and everything isn't too all over the place.  I really appreciate any advice.  I really don't want to get another dog right now.  My husband would be THRILLED if Yukon came back inside full time.  He thinks I'm mean for "making" him stay out.  LOL.  But, Yukon has prefered to be outside since he was just a few months old.


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## Southern by choice (May 24, 2013)

jdywntr said:
			
		

> Thanks for the comments.  I am here for the advice of others so (unless very rude) I don't take offense to the help.





> We got him at 8 weeks, there were 8-10 in the litter I think.  I don't know the age of the parents but there was an older, full grown (2 year old) full sibling so mom and dad were probably 3-5 years old.  The pups were raised with no real human contact.  The owner went out to feed the goats and the dogs but left them to there devices.  They were on about 100 acres.  They had never been touched or handled before we saw them.  Any that we picked up would scream (okay yelp, cry) but none showed any aggressive rusponce to us.  We decided on Yukon (who was the runt but not by much) because he seemed to show the most confidence and didn't run away every time we approached.


_The just throw them out there ideology is common, but a bad one- it is more common and acceptable for large land as the dogs came from, however thought should have been taken by the BREEDER that the majority of the pups would not go to that environment. The pups should have been more socialized._



> I had read up on choosing a pup and  knew I didn't want the most outgoing or the most timid but with the situation, it was difficult to decide.  There was no "normal" behavior as they were all just raised outside with their parents and the livestock.


_Based on your info and the pups behaviors (all the pups) plus it can be very hard to look at a whole litter and "test" each dog... sounds like you did a great job!!!!_



> After the terrifying 2 hour ride home, he was left to try to relax.  I gave him a bath the next day but he was very unsure of the situation.  He was basically housebroken fromm the get go and had maybe 6-7 accidents in the house.


_These were all the right steps!!  isn't it amazing how quickly they housetrain!_ 



> *Here is where I usually get alot of differing comments.  :/ He stayed in the house until he was about 8 months old and went out every day to do "bird chores" with me.  He was not allowed to run or jump or play when we were in the birds area.  He was not allowed with the birds unsupervised.  We have 5 small dogs that he was raised with and he also watches out for them but they are inside and only go out to go to the bathroom or hang out if I'm outside.  We have a lot of predators (hawks, owls, coyotes, stray dogs/cats).*


_Here is where I see the root of the issue._ _ I will expand on this at the bottom_



> I don't know when he started showing this behavior specifically.  I noticed it when he started staying out at night.  So, I wasn't sure if it was a reactiont to the change in circumstance.  He tends to stay under the front deck during the day, it is the coolest spot outside.  He hasn't yet used his doghouse to sleep in but I find hin in various places in the morning.  I go out for bird chores at about 5 am due to my schedule and have found him on the back porch, out by the coop, the front porch, or not even seen him sometimes.


_Rarely will a LGD use a doghouse... they tend to choose more open "shelters" if they use a shelter at all._
_I also see some positives here as he moves his location, some times you don't know where he is... he very well may be patrolling_



> He LOVES chicken and duck poop (yuck) but its kind of a reward for him.  He has been GREAT with the birds.  He's never even been interested in chasing.  I do have some ducks that are able to fly and they will sometimes fly out of their run.  I have watched him walk down past them and kind of turn them back around.  I don't know if this was on purpose or if it just happened that way.


_These are positives, unusual for any LGD to not kill a bird BUT... this says alot about the time you have put into him and the diligence!!!_



> *He has been outside during the day for about 3 months now.  We only started putting him out at night about 1 month ago.  I felt that he (as a pup) wasn't able to defend himself and could have been coyote bait if left out as a pup.  Also, since his charges are so much smaller, even a playful pup could kill them on accident. *


_This is added to the above bolded area... I will address at the bottom of the page._



> We have not heard any coyotes since he's been outside.  We also haven't seen any strays.  In the past, I have lost more chickens to neighbor's dogs than to any other predator combined.  (that problem was taken care of though) And I haven't lost any birds since he's been outside.


_This is GREAT!!!_



> I hope that I answered everything and everything isn't too all over the place.  I really appreciate any advice.  I really don't want to get another dog right now.  My husband would be THRILLED if Yukon came back inside full time.  He thinks I'm mean for "making" him stay out.  LOL.  But, Yukon has prefered to be outside since he was just a few months old.


_You were very thorough and orderly!    yes smiling and laughing at the rest of the above!!!
Very POSITIVE about Yukon wanting to stay outside!_

_I am going to post this part and then formulate the things I see from the bolded part... if that makes sense. :/
I need to have it in front of me and slowly go through. 
Until I get the rest up I  would like to say you have done such a fantastic job!!! I think your boy may be more than you think and I do not think you have a "dud" so to speak. 

I will not be able to get the rest up for a bit... have a phone interview here in a few minutes and kids to bed... Will post as soon as I can.

Gotta say people like you and others on here that have been so diligent with their LGD's always make me smile! It is so encouraging!_


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## jdywntr (May 25, 2013)

Thanks.  I am more at ease that he'll grow into his role.  I am worried that he runs from people but I certainly don't want a people aggressive dog.  I have not seen how he would react to a strange animal.  The only thing that I have seen come around was a stray cat and it was nowhere near the coop.  When he was younger he'd watch it from a distance.  More recently he goes to investigate, not in a rushed manner but just wanders down to where it was to sniff around.

I didn't figure he'd use the doghouse, it was built more as a rain/sun shelter for him and a "home" for his feed and water bowls.  

Again, I appreciate the advice/comments.  I was a bit worried about the reactions I'd get.


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## Southern by choice (May 25, 2013)

@JDYWNTR

Sent you a pm


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 25, 2013)

*Aww I wanted to see the results! *


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## Southern by choice (May 25, 2013)

I will post when I can... sorry... farm business... have appointments all day.  (you know- pays the bills  )
Breeder phone interview lasted awhile. I was so tired.


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## bj taylor (May 25, 2013)

i'm just jumping in because the subject caught my eye.  absolutely no offense to anyone intended at all.  
we have raised two german shepherd dogs.  male and female.  male first.  he came to us with ego intact and ready to take the next step.  we had done our research so knew it was imperative that every single experience he had must be a positive one so that his ego remained strong and no fear response would be needed for him.  he's a superlative dog.

the other one, a female we bought also @ 8wks a year later from a different breeder.  her ego was never intact, and two years later remains fragile, despite us being as careful with her as a young dog as him.  the difference was in the breeder and in the dog individually.  the first breeder did her job very well and socialized our male from moment one and did a great job.  the second breeder was haphazard and careless - and it showed tremendously.  I made the bad mistake of thinking we could correct any problems the pup might have.  I will never make that mistake again.


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## Southern by choice (May 26, 2013)

I want to first say there are many many questions I would be asking if this were a phone interview, it is very difficult to get the whole picture with a brief description  in written form. When you are dealing with behavior, brief descriptions are not really enough to go on. You have laid it out very well but there are so many things that really should be asked/answered.

There are many Pyrs that were sold to pet homes and after 6,9 10, months the dog was rehomed. To a farm. The biggest reason is they must have a job. This is often successful, the dogs do great. I say that because there are many dogs raised in a home and end up in a field and it was great. Some believe that a LGD raised in the house will ruin the dog. This isnt true. However, we are talking dogs here.. different personalities, traits, etc. 

*JDYWNTR *you were very diligent in the teaching of the pup with the poultry and how you worked with him sounds that you were very methodical and have done an awesome job!  

I completely understand you wanting to protect him as a pup and so you kept him in. But here is where I think it gets a bit tricky. Your purpose for getting him was to be a guardian and a guardian should ultimately start out and live in the areas you want them to guard. I am a huge fan of integrating the LGD into the home environment especially for the small family farm. Housetime is very important. But raising the pup in its intended environment is ideal. A small yard or pen outside from the beginning would have been better. He would have been adequately protected from the coyotes but still in the intended environment. 
Confidence is built in a dog in many ways. With a LGD many push the whole bonding with the livestock  thing. It is much less about bonding with livestock and much more about recognizing territory. Poultry is not usually an animal a LGD will bond with anyway, not like goats, sheep.

IMO-His territory has not been made clear. House for most of his life so far with him going with you to tend to the chickens. This is more a companion relationship. Now he is outside in the day and night. Take a step back and view this from the outside The humans have taken on the guardian role, protecting the dog, somewhat sheltering him. He has never had to build his confidence in anything so far. That is really developed early on.
I think his confidence may start to develop now that he is out full time. There are a few things that I think are important and a few things you can also do to help.

First, I do not think the pup really knows he has a job yet. I do not think he recognizes poultry guarding is a job, because you are the one that actually has guarded the poultry. Having a job, for the LGD builds confidence.
 Second is the timidity. I am not a big fan of overtraining the LGD, however where there is timidity with people the best way to help him grow in confidence is to socialize him. Some would think that is counterproductive, it is not. Socializing a timid dog helps him to develop a sense about people. It will help a dog develop the discernment of friend/foe. The confidence will develop. 

I always recommend every owner do lead work with their dog. Teaching them how to walk on lead, sit, stay, come commands, with positive instruction and lots of praise. When the dog is showing signs of cowering or timidity, its OK, good boy are simple words but very powerful. I think your boy sees you all as the protectors at this point. When he stands tall and doesn't cower or turn to run away... it is Oh, good boy, good dog. (I always say that's momma's man man- yep I am a goof with my boys  )

There is a member on here named *Baymule her dog Paris* was a very timid girl with other issues, with great diligence by Baymule- Paris overcame so much. Her story is quite touching.

*BJTAYLOR *makes some good points. However there are many differences in a GSD and a LGD. I have both, LGDs and GSDs. there are some dogs simply born with extreme timidity, plain and simple. The training and interaction are very very different.

I suspect your pup may be just delayed some of the things you have mentioned suggests he is learning his job. Male dogs in particular can go through a lack of confidence phase and with the right encouragement will outgrow it. The fact he really wants to be outside is a good thing in itself.

Your husband, which I got a kick out of his thoughts, has a point! LOL 

A second dog with no confidence issues, raised outside from the start can be very helpful in helping the lesser dog to step up to the plate. I am not saying to go get another dog! LOL. Then Yukon can be a house pet.   NOT--- I always want one of mine to be, but they won't 

Since he has only been outside full time day/night I suspect he is still figuring out what he is suppose to do. The timidity with people is IMO the biggest concern as you do not ever want these issues to develop into a fear biter. IMO socializing him, even if you need to take him to puppy classes for positive exposure can be very helpful. This builds a dogs confidence in what area is his to defend and protect, they learnmy territory, not my territory. Work, not work. Etc.

Our 4 LGDs have no confidence issues and are extremely guardy, yet we purposely take our dogs out of their fields and bring them up to say HI to farm visitors, we take them to LOWES, and TSC. We do these things to keep them from becoming overly aggressive. They are well socialized, and yet behind their fences they are guardians. 

When you have people come, have him on  a lead, outside of his territory. Encourage him if he tries to turn and hightail it. Exposure to people will be important. This will help him immensely. 

So I know I was kind all over the place on this but I started this at 5:am  very difficult to put in written form behavioral modifications. 
Now I am gonna head for a 2nd pot of coffee!   You are welcome to pm me for anything or more questions etc. 

Hope this was somewhat helpful. 

*@ BJtaylor-* I want to see your GSD's!!!!!!!!! You know I love GSD's!!!! :bun
and *Jdywntr* lets see a picture of Yukon!!!!!!!!!  

...we are all picture addicts here... feed us!


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## jdywntr (May 26, 2013)

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Pictures.  

The very first day we brought him home.  With one of our Shih Tzu.






A week or 2 later





More recently, with another Shih Tzu.  (The only one that still likes him since he's grown so much)





And a week or so ago, deciding that, no, he really doesn't want a doghouse.





I have discovered that I do not have many good pics of Yukon.


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## Southern by choice (May 26, 2013)

Yeah, for me pyrs are like potato chips...can't just have one! 

Funny about the pictures... we have so many it is actually embarrassing. My kids say wow mom... I think you have more pics of the dogs than us! 

I tell them I am old and well I don't have grandchildren! 

Yukon sure has grown. Don't ya wish the badger markings didn't disappear! Love his puppy markings!


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