# Nubian or mini Nubian?



## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Hello! Brand new here, and fairly new to goats in general. So I'm attempting to start breeding ADGA registered Nubians. I currently have a few does and a buck. I just purchased what is supposed to be an 8 month old ADGA registerable Nubian doeling. She seemed small when I bought her, but she was crouched down in a crate so I didn't think much of it. Got home and compared her to my others and realized she's TINY. Way too small to breed yet. Wrote it off as, well, maybe she's just a slow grower...until I found her breeders Facebook page, and a post about this doeling needing to be DNA tested because her dam jumped out of the breeding pen. The breeder mostly has Nigerian Dwarves, and just a couple Nubians. This doeling is only about 50-55 lbs at 8 months. Putting two and two together, I'm worried that I actually just bought a Nubian/ND cross, which I absolutely don't want. So..has anyone had a purebred Nubian this small at 8 months or did I just get taken for a ride?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 29, 2018)

jrs11 said:


> Hello! Brand new here, and fairly new to goats in general. So I'm attempting to start breeding ADGA registered Nubians. I currently have a few does and a buck. I just purchased what is supposed to be an 8 month old ADGA registerable Nubian doeling. She seemed small when I bought her, but she was crouched down in a crate so I didn't think much of it. Got home and compared her to my others and realized she's TINY. Way too small to breed yet. Wrote it off as, well, maybe she's just a slow grower...until I found her breeders Facebook page, and a post about this doeling needing to be DNA tested because her dam jumped out of the breeding pen. The breeder mostly has Nigerian Dwarves, and just a couple Nubians. This doeling is only about 50-55 lbs at 8 months. Putting two and two together, I'm worried that I actually just bought a Nubian/ND cross, which I absolutely don't want. So..has anyone had a purebred Nubian this small at 8 months or did I just get taken for a ride?



Sounds like a possibility she is a Miniature Nubian.
Did you receive papers on the doe?  Falsifying papers is a big deal so if you have the DNA checked you will know. Did sample from Nubian buck that is lested as sire will confirm.
On the other side... was she a triplet or quad? Is she from a smaller Nubian Line? 
Was there other environmental issues such as coccidia when young? Parasites?  This has been a bad year for many so there are other factors as why she could be stunted.

I would talk with the breeder and express your concerns. Accidents happen and the thing is there can be more than 1 sire in a litter.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

I received her registration application listing her as purebred Nubian. Is there a way to find out if her sire has DNA on file? I just joined the ADGA and am awaiting my pin number so I'm not sure if there's a way to find out online or not.

She wasn't even a twin - she was a single. No coccidia or anything to the best of my knowledge, but I suppose it's possible the breeder didn't disclose it.

I did email the breeder last night but haven't received a response yet.



Southern by choice said:


> Sounds like a possibility she is a Miniature Nubian.
> Did you receive papers on the doe?  Falsifying papers is a big deal so if you have the DNA checked you will know. Did sample from Nubian buck that is lested as sire will confirm.
> On the other side... was she a triplet or quad? Is she from a smaller Nubian Line?
> Was there other environmental issues such as coccidia when young? Parasites?  This has been a bad year for many so there are other factors as why she could be stunted.
> ...


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 29, 2018)

Do you have pics of the doeling? When we had Mini Nubians, our F-1 (Nubian dam, Nigerian sire) clearly looked different than our purebred Nubians.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 29, 2018)

Red goat is a F-1 Mini Nubian. Black/white goat is PB Nubian.

These does are 1/2 siblings (same dam). If possible, I would still do the DNA testing.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Do you have pics of the doeling? When we had Mini Nubians, our F-1 (Nubian dam, Nigerian sire) clearly looked different than our purebred Nubians.



I'll get some ASAP and post them. She does look Nubian. I googled mini Nubians before I posted and all the pictures that came up looked like regular Nubians but definitely could've been different generations - I freely admit I don't understand the f-1, f-2, etc lol.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 29, 2018)

jrs11 said:


> I received her registration application listing her as purebred Nubian. Is there a way to find out if her sire has DNA on file? I just joined the ADGA and am awaiting my pin number so I'm not sure if there's a way to find out online or not.
> 
> She wasn't even a twin - she was a single. No coccidia or anything to the best of my knowledge, but I suppose it's possible the breeder didn't disclose it.
> 
> I did email the breeder last night but haven't received a response yet.


You can, under member services (Lookup goat). You can also to to ADGA Gentetics and check.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 29, 2018)

jrs11 said:


> I'll get some ASAP and post them. She does look Nubian. I googled mini Nubians before I posted and all the pictures that came up looked like regular Nubians but definitely could've been different generations - I freely admit I don't understand the f-1, f-2, etc lol.


You can have MN's look like PB Nubians, but it takes many generations of breeding to do this. If the breeder only has Nigerian and Nubian bucks (No mini's) this wouldn't be an issue. If this goat IS a mini, then a Nigerian would be the sire and the kids wouldn't have quite the breed character of a true Nubian.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Here's a couple pictures (if I'm did this right, that is!)


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> You can, under member services (Lookup goat). You can also to to ADGA Gentetics and check.



I can't access member services yet, still awaiting my PIN number. Where on ADGA genetics would it be? I've looked but couldn't find it.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Then perhaps she is a purebred Nubian. She does look just like one. The breeders website mentioned mini Nubians but it hasn't been updated in years. On her Facebook page all I saw were NDs.



Goat Whisperer said:


> You can have MN's look like PB Nubians, but it takes many generations of breeding to do this. If the breeder only has Nigerian and Nubian bucks (No mini's) this wouldn't be an issue. If this goat IS a mini, then a Nigerian would be the sire and the kids wouldn't have quite the breed character of a true Nubian.


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## lalabugs (Oct 29, 2018)

Who is her sire? I can look it up for you.


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## Latestarter (Oct 29, 2018)

Greetings and welcome to BYH from NE TX! So glad you joined us. Sorry  for the reason that brought you here. Hope that you can get to the bottom of it and determine if you new doe is in fact a PB or a mini. There's a wealth of info, knowledge and experience shared in the multitude of threads. Browse around and see what interesting stuff you can find. By all means post away when the desire strikes you, especially if you have questions (provide as much detail/info as possible and pictures truly help)... With all the great folks here, generally someone will respond in no time at all. Please make yourself at home!

PLEASE put at least your general location in your profile. It could be very important if/when you ask for or offer help or advice. You know, climate issues and such. I recommend at least your state as most folks won't be able to figure out where if you put anything more specific (county, town, street, etc) by itself.  Old folks like me  will never remember from this post & look there first. To add it, mouse hover over Account top right and a drop down will appear. Click on Personal Details and scan down. You'll see the spot for Location. Then go to the bottom and save changes.  Thanks! Hope you enjoy the site!


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## Goatgirl47 (Oct 29, 2018)

She definitely looks purebred Nubian to me. She is pretty thin though. How much does she weigh?
If possible, I would start her on 24/7 alfalfa hay if you haven't already, and a good 18% goat (not all-stock) grain. I would also get a fecal done ASAP.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

lalabugs said:


> Who is her sire? I can look it up for you.



Thank you! Deer Creek Nubians Montego


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Goatgirl47 said:


> She definitely looks purebred Nubian to me. She is pretty thin though. How much does she weigh?
> If possible, I would start her on 24/7 alfalfa hay if you haven't already, and a good high percentage goat (not all-stock) grain. I would also get a fecal done ASAP.



50-55 lbs. I haven't even had her a full 24 hours yet. Definitely will get a fecal done, I thought she looked thin too. I have a Nubian doe who's two months older than her and literally twice her size.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 29, 2018)

She is Nubian.

Do you have any records of her being G6S Normal?
Nubians are affected by  G6-Sulfatase deficiency is an inherited metabolic defect.
Responsible breeders test their stock.
There are 3 results
Normal
Carrier
Affected

Carriers should only be bred to Normal never another carrier.
You will want to know the status of all your does and your buck before breeding.
If you are a member of ADGA you can get this at a discounted rate.
The tests require hair samples.


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## Goatgirl47 (Oct 29, 2018)

jrs11 said:


> 50-55 lbs. I haven't even had her a full 24 hours yet. Definitely will get a fecal done, I thought she looked thin too. I have a Nubian doe who's two months older than her and literally twice her size.



Just as you posted, I edited my post to say get 18% (protein) goat feed to be more clear, LOL. 
I agree with getting her tested for G6S, that is very important.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Glad to hear someone thinks she is a full Nubian. I thought so until I saw the post about DNA testing and got worried.

No, no G6S test records. I do plan to test all of mine.



Southern by choice said:


> She is Nubian.
> 
> Do you have any records of her being G6S Normal?
> Nubians are affected by  G6-Sulfatase deficiency is an inherited metabolic defect.
> ...


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## Southern by choice (Oct 29, 2018)

jrs11 said:


> Glad to hear someone thinks she is a full Nubian. I thought so until I saw the post about DNA testing and got worried.
> 
> No, no G6S test records. I do plan to test all of mine.


The breeder should have a record of sire and dam being tested if they were.

As far as her weight. Yes, a bit thin but like you said you just got her. Once you fun the fecal that will help. 
I don't necessarily agree with giving a high 18% protein though.
Every herd has to figure out what works for them but 2 things. The goat is not milking so really doesn't need more protein. She needs calories and good quality hay.
Sometimes people try to get weight on by more groceries but that may not be the best choice.  Do you know what she was fed and how much?
Nubians IMO are a bit harder than other breeds and can thrown off metabolically very easily. More groceries can cause Fat: Protein inversion. That is very bad.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

To the best of my knowledge the breeder didn't test for G6S. 

I'm not worried about her weight. We have plenty of good hay, pasture, and I feed mine a 16% protein feed. I do not know what she was previously fed.



Southern by choice said:


> The breeder should have a record of sire and dam being tested if they were.
> 
> As far as her weight. Yes, a bit thin but like you said you just got her. Once you fun the fecal that will help.
> I don't necessarily agree with giving a high 18% protein though.
> ...


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## Southern by choice (Oct 29, 2018)

So, are you excited about your herd?
Also, welcome to BYH!


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> So, are you excited about your herd?
> Also, welcome to BYH!



Thank you! And I am! I've got three Nubian does (including this girl) and a buck, and a Saanen doe who I bought specifically because she's in milk and I wanted to start making goat milk soap. I've ended up with some really nice bloodlines and I'm super excited to see the kids I get this spring!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 29, 2018)

You have to post pics of all of them! What fun! Are these your first goats?


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## Goatgirl47 (Oct 29, 2018)

Yes, 16% will be fine (that is actually what I am feeding right now, but when I want to put weight on, my Nubians do seem to fair better on a 18%) if that's what you normally feed. She's not terribly thin, just could use a bit more covering. She's a very beautiful girl, and I'm sure she'll blossom under your care!

We'd love to see pictures of your whole herd!


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Here's a few pictures! This is my first year with goats.. we bought three unregistered does over the summer, and then bought the registered Saanen. A couple months ago two of our original three were killed by a neighbor's dogs  the third was injured pretty badly but lived - she's the white horned goat in the pictures. She still has a chunk missing from her neck where the dogs got her, but she's healing well. We decided to replace them with registered stock and I had fallen in love with Nubians by then lol. 

(Please excuse any trash in the pictures - we also got a Karakachan LGD puppy and he's great but so very destructive haha!)


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## Southern by choice (Oct 29, 2018)

Aww How sweet!
We show our goats and a few of our does are in the recorded grade class. One of the prettiest does and I LOVE this doe that we show against is an experimental. She is registered as such. The dam is Saanen the Sire is Nubian.  I tell the lady who owns her... if you ever sell her I want her! 
Keep that in mind since you have both.


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## jrs11 (Oct 29, 2018)

Thank you! I'm hoping to get into showing eventually. My Saanen is bred to my spotted Nubian buck and I do intend on registering the kids as experimental.



Southern by choice said:


> Aww How sweet!
> We show our goats and a few of our does are in the recorded grade class. One of the prettiest does and I LOVE this doe that we show against is an experimental. She is registered as such. The dam is Saanen the Sire is Nubian.  I tell the lady who owns her... if you ever sell her I want her!
> Keep that in mind since you have both.


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## jrs11 (Oct 30, 2018)

One last question about the little doeling. I don't have access to alfalfa hay - would alfalfa cubes in addition to regular hay and 16% feed be an acceptable way to help her grow? When I had horses we fed alfalfa cubes to any horses who needed a little extra "help" - old, young, thin, etc. I still have yet to hear back from her breeder regarding the DNA test which concerns me. She does appear full Nubian but I feel like if there was a chance she's not (as in, dam escaping from the breeding pen and getting in with another buck....) that it would be unethical NOT to DNA test her. I emailed the breeder again this morning and if I don't get a response today I'll try giving her a call. Regardless, I'll be sending off a fecal today or tomorrow and having her G6S tested ASAP. I estimated her weight at 50-55 lbs just by picking her up, but I taped her yesterday evening at 47lbs  she is absolutely tiny.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 30, 2018)

I give mine alfalfa pellets. 
They can eat them better than cubes.
I read another forum and there is a person who is in Hawaii and can't really get hay and all she feeds is alfalfa cubes that she soaks in water to rehydrate.
Nice goats by the way.
She definitely looks pure Nubian to me.


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## jrs11 (Oct 30, 2018)

Yes if I fed alfalfa cubes I'd have to break them up. I mostly asked about the cubes because I know my local tractor supply carries them. I'm not sure if they carry pellets, I've never looked but when I go later I'll check. And if they don't have them I'm sure the co op we get our feed from will.

And thank you! I was really excited about this little doeling's bloodlines but her size is very concerning to me.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 30, 2018)

She is pure Nubian. We bred minis for awhile. She is not a mini. A first gen mini would not have a pronounced Roman Nose nor long pendulous ears. The ears are shorter and usually airplane or  slight drop. Heads, even a really good 1st gen will not have the head of a Nubian. Your doe meets requirements she is just small.
I think you'd do better to get on a scale and pick her up. Tape weights are not very accurate. She is definitely more than 47 lbs.
She may just be slower growing or small. I wouldn't be too concerned. Get the fecal done deworm as needed. Make sure you follow through on deworming as most dewormers only affect 4th stage.
Minerals are critical for healthy growth.

I wouldn't worry about parentage DNA as she is Nubian but I would look at the G6S.

Alfalfa cubes are great but they are big and I know when we have given them in the past we had to break them up. They were hard and the goats choked on them.
Rice bran will add weight. 
Just keep the calcium phosphorus ratio at 2:1 or greater up to 4:1

BTW sometimes it just happens. I have had twin sisters where one grew great and the other just was small. 
I would not breed her this season. Wait til next.


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## jrs11 (Oct 30, 2018)

Thank you. I do believe she is full Nubian now, I just had googled "mini nubians" and saw tons of pictures of small Nubians and got worried. I know now that the pictures that came up were not f1 mini Nubians 

Definitely won't be breeding her this season. I did get on the scale with her too - showed right at 50lbs, but I was alone and having trouble seeing over her so I taped her too. She's for sure not over 50lbs. A bag of feed weighs more than her. She's tiny. Perhaps it's the pictures making her appear larger, but she is very, very small. 

I do intend on breaking up the alfalfa cubes - I didn't even feed them whole to horses lol. 

Thank you for the advice


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