# CAE AND CL



## 11langenkamp_w (Feb 10, 2011)

WHat does it mean when somebody says there goats are CAE free and CL free?


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## KellyHM (Feb 10, 2011)

They are diseases that goats can carry, which can cause problems in the herd.  A herd being "free" means the blood tests have come back negative.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 10, 2011)

KellyHM said:
			
		

> They are diseases that goats can carry, which can cause problems in the herd.  A herd being "free" means the blood tests have come back negative.


WHOA, NOW.

That's *not* what that means at all -- you can't assume that.  What that means in many, many cases is that they believe their herds to be CAE and CL free, and people often make that determination based on not having had a CL knot or suspected case of CAE.

Or, they just lie and say they're free when they know they're not.

So, really, for someone to say their herd is CL/CAE free means nothing.  If you're concerned about it, ask to see blood test results on the animals you're interested in purchasing and make sure you can match the test to the actual animals.


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## 4hmama (Feb 10, 2011)

NOTE:  CL free and abscess free aren't always the same thing.  A breeder that says they are CL free has a herd that tests negative for CL.  A breeder that says they are abscess free hasn't had an abscess, but doesn't mean that they test.  Abscess free doesn't mean CL free....  There is always the chance of false positives or false negatives with testing, but a goat can have internal CL absesses that you may never see, yet still have the disease.
I agree with CM above...ALWAYS ask to see the paperwork if the breeder says the goats are tested 'free'.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 10, 2011)

4hmama said:
			
		

> NOTE:  CL free and abscess free aren't always the same thing.  A breeder that says they are CL free has a herd that tests negative for CL.  A breeder that says they are abscess free hasn't had an abscess, but doesn't mean that they test.  Abscess free doesn't mean CL free....  There is always the chance of false positives or false negatives with testing, but a goat can have internal CL absesses that you may never see, yet still have the disease.


Didn't I just say?!?.....

Okay, first of all, I've never seen anyone advertise a herd as 'abscess free'..  Second, a breeder who says they are CL free could be:

A) Lying through their teeth
B) Making that determination based on having no abscesses
C) Lying through their teeth

DO NOT assume that since someone claims to be CL free that they must have had CL tests run or that they're being truthful.

Period.

Now I feel compelled to answer the OPs question... :/



			
				the OP said:
			
		

> WHat does it mean when somebody says there goats are CAE free and CL free?


What they're trying to communicate is that they don't have the Caprine Arthritis/Encephalitis Virus or Caseous Lymphadenitis in their herd.  That may be true, or they may be mistaken, or they may be straight-up liars.  There are lots and lots of liars in the goat world.

If you want to be sure, ask to see blood test results on the individual animals you wish to purchase.  If you take their word for it based on visual inspection of their herd, fine, but it's a good idea to either run the blood tests yourself or put them in quarantine for a long time when you bring them in.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 10, 2011)

There have always been liars in any animal related field.  I had been out of goats for a long time and when we got back into them, I realized there are a lot of folks who have simply learned to lie better when selling a goat.

If they claim to be "free" of something or claim to not have a certain disease in their herd, I ask to see the paperwork that pertains to that specific goat or goats, proving such.  I then speak to their veterinarian as well.  

If they do not have the paperwork to prove their claims, I don't put any stock in what they have to say.  If the paperwork seems to back up their claims, I would suggest digging a bit further to make sure that paperwork really is for that particular goat.  If there is not an absolute way of matching the paperwork to that specific goat (tattoo, micro chip, or veterinarian's notes) I must consider the possibility that they are representing a bad goat with a good goat's paperwork (have had this happen before).

Sadly, what folks say means little anymore.  Not how I grew up.  Not how I live.  But it is the way it is anymore and you must consider this when purchasing a goat if you wish to have a CL or CAE free herd.


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## KellyHM (Feb 10, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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You're absolutely right.  That's what it is SUPPOSE to mean, but not a lot of people are truthful these days.


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## 4hmama (Feb 10, 2011)

If you haven't seen any herds advertise as abscess free...just look around the internet.  They ARE there.  I have seen more than one say 'CAE tested negative', 'no abscesses' or 'abscess free', yet not say 'CL tested negative'.  My point was that someone can insinuate that they do not have CL in their herd (by saying they have never had an abscess).  Whether they honestly believe that they are free of CL or are "lying through their teeth"... is up for debate.


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## julieq (Feb 10, 2011)

Who are you people buying from?  In over a decade of purchasing either standard dairy goats or ND dairy goats, we haven't been lied to at all about health status of the herd.  We've purchased from breeders as far away as Virginia, California and Texas and not one has lied to us.  Some that we contact have been adamant that CL and CAE are not important (i.e. they don't test and/or don't care about it), thus we don't purchase from them.  Others are just as adamant as we are that their herds be absolutely free of any disease that they can test for.   Maybe we've just been fortunate, but we've met more genuinely honest goat breeders than the other kind.


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## bettybohemian (Feb 10, 2011)

It means they don't have goat herpes ( Cl) or goat HIV ( CAE
not the same.viruses. bit They are similar so that's just an easy way to describe them.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 11, 2011)

If a farm says they test for it, then ask to see the test results. I tested my herd and I have the paperwork to prove it and not offended at all if someone asks to see it.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 11, 2011)

bettybohemian said:
			
		

> It means they don't have goat herpes ( Cl) or goat HIV ( CAE
> not the same.viruses. bit They are similar so that's just an easy way to describe them.


Ok, so..  :/

Goat herpes?  CL is nothing like herpes..  In fact, CL isn't even caused by a virus, but rather bacteria; corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis, to be precise.

And goat HIV?  CAE isn't an immunodeficiency virus like HIV is in humans.  Or FIV is in cats, for that matter, which would lead one to suppose that if CAE really were like HIV or FIV, it would be called CIV - caprine immunodeficiency virus.  The CAE virus sometimes causes encephalitis in baby goats, but more commonly causes arthritis in adult goats.  But even more commonly than that, it causes *nothing* and the goat is simply an asymptomatic carrier.  I remember reading an estimate that up to 70% of the US commercial herd is suspected of being CAE+.  That's a lot of AIDS goats to be running around out there, dontcha think?

And beyond all that, no...the two aren't really that similar at all, unless you consider the fact that both acronyms start with 'C' to be a similarity..


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## bettybohemian (Feb 11, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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GOOD GAWD- I. was just making a joke, hence the.Smiley. face. There were plenty. Of answers that did a great job of explaining what the diseases actually are. As for my comparison of Cl and herpes, in the sense that it forms.a.paid full lesion that eventually burst spewing disease, and outbreak are brought on by stress and weakened immune function. Also as in herpes you can carry the illness and never actually get sick or get false positives and false negatives. IT WAS A JOKE.  My attempt at funny escaped you, sorrry


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## mossyStone (Feb 11, 2011)

Joking aside, you really just have to do your homework, and go from there...

 One of the best places i have found is a small lic dairy....  ( they are tested for everything under the sun in my state)

I have had the best luck adding to my herd by useing a local lic dairy her goats are tested ( seen all paper work she goes another step and had each doe and buck tested with tats numbers) I will not buy unless i see papers that match the animal i am looking at...
And  she has blodlines that milk  

 And i have walked away from many who can't show me!

 I really dont want to deal with CL....


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## cmjust0 (Feb 11, 2011)

bettybohemian said:
			
		

> I. was just making a joke, hence the.Smiley. face. There were plenty. Of answers  ....


I can't tell if you're inserting periods for emphasis, or if maybe your keyboard has asthma..  

(that was a joke, btw  )


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## themrslove (Feb 11, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> maybe your keyboard has asthma..
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> (that was a joke, btw  )


Bahahaha!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 11, 2011)

julieq said:
			
		

> Who are you people buying from?  In over a decade of purchasing either standard dairy goats or ND dairy goats, we haven't been lied to at all about health status of the herd.  We've purchased from breeders as far away as Virginia, California and Texas and not one has lied to us.  Some that we contact have been adamant that CL and CAE are not important (i.e. they don't test and/or don't care about it), thus we don't purchase from them.  Others are just as adamant as we are that their herds be absolutely free of any disease that they can test for.   Maybe we've just been fortunate, but we've met more genuinely honest goat breeders than the other kind.


Although I'm never that surprised when I see threads about sellers being deceitful (call me a cynic...  ) my personal experiences with purchasing goats overall have been postive.  I think that if you're out to minimize risk that there are lots of ways to do so.  Getting to know local breeders is one way (there are lots of honest ones out there) and checking paperwork is another.  If you're a newb and you're not confident you can weed out the not-so-trustworthy sellers on craigslist then you might start by going to some shows or contacting the regional associations so that you can get to know the goat community in your area.  Again, I'm talking about MINIMIZING risk.  There's surely no way to eliminate it altogether, but that's life isn't it?

Was that off topic?    I think it was... but anyway I'm with julieq- there are honest breeders out there!


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## bettybohemian (Feb 11, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

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LOL. Kind of. I'm typing on a phone and I suck.lolYourLinkGoesHere


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## 11langenkamp_w (Feb 11, 2011)

So if your goats do have it what can happen? Is it a big deal?


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## bettybohemian (Feb 11, 2011)

11langenkamp_w said:
			
		

> So if your goats do have it what can happen? Is it a big deal?


It can be. It depends if you have the patience stamina and $$$ to keep on top of things. I have a veterinary background so i could handle that part of it,but I'm also kid of lazy so I would want to avoid it Just because of the extra work involved.

If you just have a small herd and lots of time ( and take into consideration the responsibilities of breeding positive kids) its manageable. 

Again though, I did wildlife rehab and have special needs kids so trauma and drama come with the territory


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## Caprice_Acres (Feb 21, 2011)

11langenkamp_w said:
			
		

> So if your goats do have it what can happen? Is it a big deal?


You'll loose buyers who want clean herds. Your prices may be lower than an equal counterpart from a tested herd.  I honestly tell people that ask if I'm interested in their goats that if their herd isn't tested, they couldn't GIVE me their goats. 

CAE affects milk production and therefore profits in both dairy AND meat herds.  It is a retrovirus that is MAINLY spread through milk and colostrum to kids. That's why many dairy herds pull kids at birth and raise on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk.

Stress can induce symptoms of these diseases (as with any disease)... you could have losses during kidding season as stressed does break out with abscesses (CL) and need to be culled, or their knees swell after kidding stress because of CAE.

Last I heard if there are two or more CL abscesses on a meat goat carcass, then it is unable to be consumed.  You might loose sales on carcasses.

CL is zoonotic, meaning your cows, rabbits, horses and EVEN YOU AND YOUR FAMILY can get it from your goats. CL is a bacterium as previously stated. 

CL can live for YEARS on surfaces, soils - waiting to infect.

CL is a chronic disease that causes lowered production and efficiency.


In my opinion, management of ALL diseases is NECESSARY. Especially if I or my family are susceptible to getting it! Mostly you'll hear from meat herds that 'its everywhere' and 'they're unmanageable'... But then you'll find dairy herds that have been clean for MANY years now, since testing became available... Sounds more to me that people don't WANT to manage it because meat herds are terminal.  That's just weird animal husbandry ideology, IMO.  

I have a tested clean herd for CL, CAE, and Johne's.  I've had CAE positives, and thankfully it's a very easy to manage disease and since butchering my positives, I've had no others convert from negative. I've never had a CL or Johne's positive goat on the property, thank goodness.  I've never even seen an abscess in person. 

As for the issues of 'CL negative" and "Abscess Free" - I claim both. I can prove negative test status, but many people don't CARE about CL test results because they are sometimes considered too inacurate. Therefore, I also say 'abscess free'. False positives and negatives abound... but REGULAR testing of herds is necessary in disease management because of incubation periods - testing should be done at least once per year. Last I talked to WADDL about their BLOOD CL testing, they do further testing on the sample if it initially comes back positive.  I can't remember all the details but it essentially helps rule out false positives, as there are MANY environmental harmless bacteria that can cause a false positive on an contaminated blood sample. 

Pus samples from suspicious abscesses give MUCH MORE ACCURATE test results.


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## MomMommyMamma (Mar 4, 2011)

Where/how is the testing done? A local vet has to do it?


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## phoenixmama (Mar 4, 2011)

MomMommyMamma said:
			
		

> Where/how is the testing done? A local vet has to do it?


You can draw blood yourself and ship the samples off to the lab.  Around here, people use BioTracking for preg tests and/or CAE.  And use WADDL for everything under the sun.  It's really easy drawing blood yourself, and a heck of a lot cheaper than having the vet come out to do it.


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