# Pls help - doeling off bottle. Distressed, 105.7 temp



## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 26, 2010)

Please help, I really don't want to lose her. 

(can't edit typos out on this phone .... Below I meant to say she was not wormed not that she was not worked. Hope the rest of the typos can still be understood)

Temp is 105.7, doeling is about 4 weeks. Half Nubian, 1/4 alpine, 1/4 oberhasli. She's been refusing a bottle here and there but eating grain and browsing a lot. Her last bottle was yesterday am only 16 oz. Her belly often seems swollen and tight but then later it's down again. Last night seemed very full, but not unnatural looking as in bloat pics I've seen. Today still a bit full and tight but down from last night. 

I've seen her standing with legs out a bit and head hanging low over the past few days -- for brief periods. She has been running a bit less.  But then she'll cry and run and act normal and I think she's fine. I've also seen her "fluffed up" a bit at times -- usually when it's chilly and I thought that was normal. 

Today she was lying in the sun with her legs stretched in front of her. It appeared she had slumped over but I didn't see it. She didn't wake when I called her but did when I touched her. She got up and went to get some water and refused the bottle. 

I haven't seen her poop in the last couple of days. I did notice she had a berry stuck to her leg hair. When I removed the thermometer it had a bit of slimy poo on the sleeve and there was an odor. 

I removed a tick yesterday crawling on the surface of her fur. 

She has not been worked or vaccinated yet. We did get 2 new kids several days ago. Those were worked herbally and had not been vaccinated. They are 2 and 2-1/2 months old. They are and were the picture of health as were all the Nimals on that farm. All my goats come from 2 different closed herds. 

This is the one that used to nibble dirt. She stopped that weeks ago -- possibly because I gave her loose minerals?

She eats mostly browse when she's not taking her bottle. A little 16%  sweet feed. I was giving her 2 bottles a day and she was up to 24 oz at a time but she started refusing sometimes in the past few days when her belly is full Nd tight. Looks all around full not especially onone side. 

It's been stessful in the herd with having to keep my 2 mo old buckling away from his mother who I think is in heat for a few days but this doeling is probably the least affected. 

The llama was lying in the shade surrounded by all the kids this morning and she stayed with them until I finished my chores and started spending more time in with the goats, which she has never done exactly like that before. 

That's all I can think of. She seems weak and distressed and I'm afraid that temp sounds terribly high? I'm SO not wanting tolose her.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 26, 2010)

The full/slack/full/slack belly sounds fairly normal rumen activity for any goat that's eating browse.  

At 105.7, she has a fever, which typically means she has an infection somewhere.  The fever and/or infection could be causing what sounds to me like depression, ie. being less active, hanging her head, etc..  

Question then becomes...._where_ is the infection?

If it's in the gut, it's usually best to treat it in the gut.  If she's still eating grain and browsing as you say, and if she doesn't have runny poop down the back of her legs, then I don't see much reason -- _at this point!_ -- to suspect it to be a gut infection..

The slimy, smelly poo on the thermo is reason enough to watch for diarrhea later, though it could be a result of good gut bugs being killed off by the fever.  Who knows.  

In the meantime, my next stop would be the lungs...  The most clear marker of pneumonia is usually funky nasal discharge and/or coughing, labored breathing, etc....  Have you seen any of that with her?

Otherwise, the next logical conclusion (in my mind) would be some type of localized or even systemic infection.  Urinary tract infection, hoof rot, metritis...just as examples of what I mean by _localized_ infections.

All in all, if she were here, I'd hit this little gal with *Banamine* @ *1ml/100lbs IM *and some type of antibiotic.  

If you don't have banamine, call your vet and see if you can get some.  Shoud be fairly inexpensive if you just pick up a syringe full.  While you're at it, you might pick up an Rx broad-spectrum antibiotic if you can..naxcel/excenel, nuflor, baytril, draxxen...something like that.

I keep some pretty stout Rx antibiotics on hand, but if I didn't, I'd probably go with good ol' *Penicillin Procaine G* (durvet PenAqueous, for instance) at a dosage of *1ml/15lbs SQ *through an *18ga needle*, *2x/day *for *10+ days*.  

The Banamine will help bring down the fever and reduce inflammation, plus it should make her _feel better_.  PenG is still a pretty decent broad spectrum antibiotic for pneumonia when used at high enough doses.

For whatever reason, pneumonia's what I keep coming to in my mind..  Absolutely could be wrong, though..

Might not hurt to hit her with some Probios once the fever comes down, and a shot of b-complex to stimulate the rumen wouldn't hurt either.  Probios and b-complex are cheap, basically harmless, and can really do some good.

Best of luck.  Keep us posted.  Hopefully others will chime in with more suggestions soon.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 26, 2010)

THANK YOU!!!

Actually she's gotten up a few times to drink. The belly is down again. She started grazing with the does so I offered her a bottle and she took 15 oz then lay down to rest. 

I don't see a for-sure indication that it's digestive. Somehow just having her take the bottle makes me feel better. I'm switching her to 100% goats milk since I finally have enough with the other doe weaning. 

I don't see any respiatory symptoms. A tiny bit of graininess in the nostrils but no runniness or mucous anywhere in nose or eyes. Breathing easy and normal as far as I can tell. No coughing, wheezing, or labored breathing at all. 

Like I said, just her eating makes me feel better. I don't know just how bad her fever is considered but it makes sense she must have an infection. I'm off to the feed store NOW to get some anti-b. I don't like to use them unless absolutely necessary but at her age ifeel she's too fragile and I know they can die quickly. 

Thank you again so much. I'm not sure what's available but I'll take your list. I need tofind another vet but I'll call the local one I know of (I'm in farm country but there IS a resort town nearby and I guess he's a yuppie dog and cat vet -- quoted me $200 just to get 2 cats and a dog wormed when I moved here and that was not with any workup or testing!). 

Anyway --- thanks again. More responses appreciated if anyone has anything to add. And I'll report back.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 26, 2010)

Eating is a really good sign.  We've gotten our goat vet involved in several cases of illness and his first question is always "Still eating?"  If the answer is yes, his level of concern always seemed to go way down.  These days, mine does too..  Indeed, when I see a sick goat begin to eat, I'm always like  .

Still...105.7 is a fever and, like you said, they can go down quickly at that age.  That said, I think you're absolutely right in going ahead and hitting her with something for pain/fever/inflammation, plus an antibiotic...even if you don't really know what kind of infection you're fighting, or where.

And since you don't really know what you're fighting at this point, therapeutic-level regimen of PenG seems like a good place to start if you can't get an Rx broad-spectrum like Naxcel, Baytril, Nuflor, etc..  There are other OTC antibiotics out there, but PenG's probably as good as the rest of them in this case.

Be sure to give it through an 18ga needle, though.  You may have seen me harp on this before, but I'd rather harp again than have you reach for thin, kid-friendly-looking 22ga needles and inadvertantly short-change your goat on medication....  

See, PenG is a suspension.  The actual medication is in the form of little particles dispersed in a liquid carrier.  From experience, *many* of the particles are simply too big to be drawn through a 22ga needle, and _quite a lot_ are even too big for a 20ga needle.  Some folks say "Oh, well, you just blow it back out and suck in some more"...and you can do that...but if you were to continuously do that, drawing from a bottle of PenG through a 20 or 22ga needle, you'd end up with lots of big particles and very little carrier as the bottle ran out..

Which is to say, you'd have lots of leftover medication and very little carrier.

Which is to say that everything you'd drawn up previously consisted of too little medication and too much carrier.

Which is to say that everything you'd administered previously wasn't as strong as it should have been.

Which is to say that if you're using a 20 or 22ga needle for PenG, you're *under dosing* -- which is definitely not something you want to do.

So, in order to ensure that you're getting proper dose, PenG must be given through an 18ga needle.

In my opinion.  

And according to the directions on most bottles of PenG.   

Yeah, it sucks to poke one with what feels like a stovepipe, but it's been my experience that goats don't really know the difference of one size needle to the next if you do it correctly and quickly enough.

The beauty is that, through an 18ga needle, you can push med REALLY FAST and have it over with quickly.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 26, 2010)

I have pen g procaine. It says for im only? It also says 1 ml per 100 pounds of weight and not to use more than 4 days. I will weigh the doeling of course but I'm thinking that's going to be a TINY dose? Or is the bottle directions not right? Not sure if I have exactly what you suggested? It says 300,000 units per mL.  

It was all I could get. The vets won't see her today and won't let me have meds without an office visit.

I should warm it and shake it and inject into the hip im?  Can I give her probios a couple hours later?

Thanks!


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## cmjust0 (Apr 26, 2010)

Lil-patch-of-heaven said:
			
		

> I have pen g procaine. It says for im only? It also says 1 ml per 100 pounds of weight and not to use more than 4 days. I will weigh the doeling of course but I'm thinking that's going to be a TINY dose? Or is the bottle directions not right? Not sure if I have exactly what you suggested? It says 300,000 units per mL.
> 
> It was all I could get. The vets won't see her today and won't let me have meds without an office visit.
> 
> ...


First off, you got exactly the right stuff..  PenG 300,000 units/ML is precisely what I was talking about.

Second, pay absolutely no attention to the label.  You're in goat world now.  About 95% of the time, labels are worthless in goat world.  

Third...DO NOT give it IM.  There are too many downsides and precious few upsides to giving PenG IM..  For instance, if you accidentally get PenG in the vein, your goat is dead.  

Give it SQ.

As for warming/shaking...I wouldn't warm the whole bottle.  Shake it up well, then draw it, and then you can let it warm in the syringe if you want.  I never do (not purposefully, anyway), but it shouldn't hurt anything if you warm it before injecting.

As for the dosage, _again I say_...the goat dosage for PenG is:  1ml/15lbs, 2x/day for 10-14 days, SQ, through an 18ga needle.

Trust me on this.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 26, 2010)

Thank you SO much!  I will do exactly ad you say. I so wanted to do subq anyway. Do you pinch up the shoulder on a kid?

Thanks!!!


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 26, 2010)

Nm -- I found what looks like a good discussion at http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3895 

I'm going to do it in her armpit just as discussed. And since you posted later on that thread you would have corrected if you didn't agree?  

Thanks SO much. I didn't realize things were so tricky with goats. I am SO glad I could come here or I'd be giving a tiny dose im for 4 days. ...  Sigh

she's up and trotting around as I drive up. I'll get the pen g in her asap. Do I need to observe her for a ceetain period after?  It's almost time to put them in the barn.

Thanks again!


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## rebecca100 (Apr 26, 2010)

Wow, I live next to a resort town too, and our only vet is also an expensive dog and cat vet.  You don't live in AR, do you? I can't give any advice but I hope your goat feels better.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 27, 2010)

No, Texas. 

And everyone I talk to has a good farm vet that WILL sell them meds for 30 sheep, 2 litters of pups, a dozen goats, or whatever they need. They are just all a 2-3 hour drive for me. Surely there's one or more here and I just haven't found them yet. I only know 3 close by now and it's not them. 

my little doeling jerked a bit and cried and lkept picking that leg up high. She seems none the worse for the injection but I'm going to hate giving it to her 20 or more times in only 2 armpits. 

She only weighs 16 pounds too. I could have sworn she was heavier. I heard back from her breeder finally too, who said to do exactly the same as I was told here (thanks again cmjust!). She also told me her twin had the same eating habits, escaping the baby pen daily and browsing with the does.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 27, 2010)

The 'armpit' (which, if I'm not mistaken, is what veterinary science calls 'the axillary space') is indeed my preferred spot for shots...however...if I'm going to be giving a poopload of something requiring many injections, I might also go over the ribs in a couple of different spots.  The hide there is a bit tougher, but not terribly so.  If you picked two spots over the ribs on each side (about halfway down, fore and aft, for instance) and used each armpit...that's six sites.  Spreading as many shots as you're looking at across six sites isn't so bad.

Also...and you didn't hear this from me, but...  ...some folks recommend 7-10 days of PenG.  Whenever my vet has advised penicillin, he's always said "about a week."  I've given it that way, and I've given it longer based on hearing/seeing/reading of other folks' usage...just depends on what I'm doing and how I'm feeling about the animal.

Going longer is probably safer in terms of potential relapse and so forth, but...well, do what you will with the above info..

Probably a good time to point out another fun part of goat world, which is that things that should maybe -- or perhaps I should say, _would normally_ -- come down to simply reading a label end up becoming judgement calls in many cases.  Making judgement calls requires experience...experience is learning from one's mistakes...unfortunately, mistakes sometimes cost lives.  That's just how it works.

Goats can be fun..  Goats can be frustrating..  Goats can be rewarding..  Goats can be heartbreaking..  If you enjoy a challenge, and if you enjoy reading and researching and learning all sorts of new things you never knew you'd need to know, and if you can make life or death decisions quickly and live with the outcome either way...you've got the makings of good herdsfolk.

Keep us posted.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 27, 2010)

I also give sub-q injections in the neck.  It's easy to tent the skin on the side of the neck and inject there.  I really don't like giving anything over the ribs, because the skin isn't loose and it makes it more difficult, IMO.  But, I also don't have a problem giving anything (when the label calls for it) IM either.


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (Apr 28, 2010)

I might try the neck then. Last night I was eying her neck and considering it. 

The first injection went fine. Yesterdays am one leaked out a bit, which I didn't like. Yesterdays pm dose was worse. If I'm going to give anti-b, which ... I certainly don't believe in jumping right to them without good cause,  but when you NEED them I am certainly glad we have them!  The very last thing I want to do is sub- dose them or stop too soon. IMO you run far too great a risk of breeding stronger bugs. 

I don't get it. I've given hundreds on sq puppy shots. I've given more human shots than that, sq and im, in various sites. I'm really having a hard time with this little girl. And I hate it all the more because she will lie there and let me -- she trusts me. Well, I guess that's really a good thong. If she were fighting it'd be that much more difficult. 

Seems like she doesn't HAVE any loose skin. I did try over the shoulder and along the ribs. I poked the baby so full of holes last night that when I DID get a good spot the penG just ran out. Maybe through another hole. The am dose seemed to partially run out the hole I injected it through. 

I may just do the armpits for a while if I can't get loose skin on the neck. I'm going to feel the other kids and see if they feel the same. I'm just afraid I'm hurting her more by giving lowered doses. 

On the good side, she SEEMS perfectly fine now. Took two full bottles yesterday, ran all over the pasture looking for me, holding her own with the bigger kids and the does, browsing fine, and trying to steal food or a bottle from the fridge when I brought her in for a shot. (she's always squeezing through the gate behind me when I go out and will follow me anywhere) I haven't taken her temp again -- I was 
going to after the 4th dose, but she seems like she's fine.

It's very frustrating, especially when I feel it's important she gets the full amt AND I think I should be able to do this. I sure wish there was something I could give by mouth though.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 28, 2010)

Couldn't tell you the number of times I've given SQ shots only to go...oops...there goes the med, running out the bottom of the tent.

Straight through...two holes.

It happens.  The less skin they have to pinch up, the more likely it is to happen.  Happens less in the armpit area for me, but it still happens occasionally.  Wish I could be more help than that..   

Glad she's improving, though!


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