# Ram with ewes 24/7



## secuono

Since Babydoll Southdown sheep are seasonal breeders, can I keep the ram with the ewes from day one? 
I'm getting two freshly weaned ewes in Spring, can I get a same aged ram, too? I assume yes because of the seasonal breeding. He would just grow up with them and only be interested once they go into heat triggered by shorter days. 
Can that same ram live with them the next spring if they did breed and now would be lambing season? Or would I have to remove him for a certain period of time? I don't see how he would be an issue since the ewes are not in heat, the ewes might be more protective if anything. 

I would much rather have him live with the sheep year round than have him and a wether in a pen or rent/buy and resell/kill him after his use is done. 

I know I would have to watch the ram all the time when out in the field, please don't mention that a zillion times. :/


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## SheepGirl

I would probably not be a good idea to keep the ram with the ewes 24/7. For one, you won't be able to control when he breeds the ewes...which means you will have no idea when the ewes will lamb (unless you keep a marking harness on him) and you will not know when to vaccinate them. Another problem it presents is that when lambing season arrives, the rams may act aggressive towards the lambs. We had a ram once kill a day old lamb by bashing into him because he was in his way.

If I were you, I would buy two rams so that way you can use both of them for at least two breeding seasons, and you can keep them separated together.

From Sheep 201:


> It is recommended that rams be kept separate from ewes except during planned breeding seasons, typically the length of two (not more than three) heat periods (~34-51 days). If a ram is allowed to run with the ewes continuously, the shepherd will not be in control of breeding. Lambs may be born at undesirable times. Ewes may be bred when they are in poor body condition. The ram may breed his daughters and dam. Undersized ewe lambs may be bred.
> 
> Because the times of breeding and lambing will not be not known, it will be difficult to properly time vaccinations, supplemental feeding, and other management practices. Ewes will be at different stages of gestation and lactation, so it will be difficult to feed them to meet their nutritional needs. Some will likely be overfed; others, underfed.
> 
> It is not possible to take advantage of the "ram effect" if rams and ewes are continuously mixed. A ram that is housed with ewes is likely to be overfed, as a ram does not require as concentrated a diet as pregnant and lactating ewes. Some rams may be too aggressive to be housed with pregnant ewes.


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## aggieterpkatie

Plus, even though they are seasonal breeders the ewe lambs most likely will not be big enough to be bred as lambs.


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## aggieterpkatie

secuono said:
			
		

> I know I would have to watch the ram all the time when out in the field, please don't mention that a zillion times. :/


Yeah, he may take you down at the knee.


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## secuono

I guess I'll be sitting on him then, hopefully I'll be carrying something heavy and really get my point across.

Anyway, I am reading there are 3 breeding times in the fall, each a month long and that he should be with them during that time. Two or more moth longs. If that's the case, it's pointless to worry about when the lambing will start because it could be 3 different months all together....

Even if you go with two months and not 3, it's still not going to help with the vacs that should be 1 month before hand.



Is 20ft by 250-300ft area enough for two mini rams? It is our easement area, it's over grown and no one uses it, I have clear access to it. It may be wider than just 20ft and it does taper down to...well, I'm not sure. I haven't gone that far down, kinda scary with all those evil vines w/thorns. And then the tall grass and mini trenches..lol. 
One side[our side] is field fencing and the other is 6 lines[well, they don't care for the fence care, so 4 lines here and there] of barbed wire. I would add more lines to the lower half as well as tie them together to make a fence similar to field fencing. I do this with my pony's fencing, since otherwise he can squeeze through. Sheep won't be able to do that if I do the same to their fence. As for shelter, I can make something on skids or wheels so I can move it out easily if the need ever arises.


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## SheepGirl

I don't understand what you mean by "breeding times." Ewes come into heat, on average, about every 17 days. Usually rams are in with the ewes for two heat cycles (about 34 days/1 month), though some breeders leave them in for three to four cycles (51-68 days). I know my Babydoll cross ewes come into heat starting in early/mid October and last until about January if they weren't bred.

The place you have described (20'x300') is just over 1/8 of an acre. There is no doubt more than enough room (sheep really only need 30-50 sq ft of space per head in an open lot), but if you were thinking of pasturing them, you will likely run out of grass and you will have to feed hay.


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## aggieterpkatie

Secuono, would it be an option for you to bring your ewes back to the breeder's place to be bred? That would save you cost of keeping rams.   If not, the place you described (the easement) would be plenty big for them.


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## secuono

I emailed her if she did rent out rams or the such, waiting on a reply.


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## secuono

Lady is selling off all her Babydoll sheep. Buying a trio, black ram and two white ewes. She keeps them all together until the lambs are 9mo, then those lambs are separated so they won't be bred young.


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## aggieterpkatie

There is still a chance those lambs could be bred if she's leaving them with the ram until 9 mos!


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## SheepGirl

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> There is still a chance those lambs could be bred if she's leaving them with the ram until 9 mos!


Agreed!


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## 77Herford

Yes, agreed.  Southdowns do look sweet.


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## secuono

Yea, I'm guessing so. I'm getting all adults, so I will have time to make the ram enclosure before I really need it.


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## bonbean01

Ditto on the danger of keeping a ram with newborn lambs...our ram did butt our very first day old lamb very hard, but luckily he was okay...but it did teach us to have him separate from newborns!!!  We never dreamed he would do that...and we learn as we go, and forums like this are so very helpful!!!  Wish we'd known about it right from the start!


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## secuono

Well, they are here for those of you that haven't heard!
Ram is very shy of me and runs from me if I step to him. He never makes any kind of aggressive or odd move towards me. He kind of hides behind the two ewes. They on the other hand are more willing to come over and see what I'm doing.


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## Mike

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> I don't understand what you mean by "breeding times." Ewes come into heat, on average, about every 17 days. Usually rams are in with the ewes for two heat cycles (about 34 days/1 month), though some breeders leave them in for three to four cycles (51-68 days). I know my Babydoll cross ewes come into heat starting in early/mid October and last until about January if they weren't bred.
> 
> The place you have described (20'x300') is just over 1/8 of an acre. There is no doubt more than enough room (sheep really only need 30-50 sq ft of space per head in an open lot), but if you were thinking of pasturing them, you will likely run out of grass and you will have to feed hay.


How unusual is it for a Southdown sheep to be born in late August (like the one born in Central Park Zoo)?

Has that ever happened before?


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## SheepGirl

Mike said:
			
		

> SheepGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by "breeding times." Ewes come into heat, on average, about every 17 days. Usually rams are in with the ewes for two heat cycles (about 34 days/1 month), though some breeders leave them in for three to four cycles (51-68 days). I know my Babydoll cross ewes come into heat starting in early/mid October and last until about January if they weren't bred.
> 
> The place you have described (20'x300') is just over 1/8 of an acre. There is no doubt more than enough room (sheep really only need 30-50 sq ft of space per head in an open lot), but if you were thinking of pasturing them, you will likely run out of grass and you will have to feed hay.
> 
> 
> 
> How unusual is it for a Southdown sheep to be born in late August (like the one born in Central Park Zoo)?
> 
> Has that ever happened before?
Click to expand...

It can be done, but that would mean the ewe would have to be bred in March. Normally more traditional, wool-type ewes (such as Southdowns) don't cycle that late naturally. In order to be bred that late in the season, the ewe probably had a CIDR used on her to get her to come into heat. A CIDR is an instrument you insert into the ewe's vulva and it releases (I believe) progesterone. After a couple of days, it is removed, and the ewes come into heat within a week.


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## Mike

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> Mike said:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SheepGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what you mean by "breeding times." Ewes come into heat, on average, about every 17 days. Usually rams are in with the ewes for two heat cycles (about 34 days/1 month), though some breeders leave them in for three to four cycles (51-68 days). I know my Babydoll cross ewes come into heat starting in early/mid October and last until about January if they weren't bred.
> 
> The place you have described (20'x300') is just over 1/8 of an acre. There is no doubt more than enough room (sheep really only need 30-50 sq ft of space per head in an open lot), but if you were thinking of pasturing them, you will likely run out of grass and you will have to feed hay.
> 
> 
> 
> How unusual is it for a Southdown sheep to be born in late August (like the one born in Central Park Zoo)?
> 
> Has that ever happened before?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It can be done, but that would mean the ewe would have to be bred in March. Normally more traditional, wool-type ewes (such as Southdowns) don't cycle that late naturally. In order to be bred that late in the season, the ewe probably had a CIDR used on her to get her to come into heat. A CIDR is an instrument you insert into the ewe's vulva and it releases (I believe) progesterone. After a couple of days, it is removed, and the ewes come into heat within a week.
Click to expand...

So what do you make of this?



> While you were busy lazily taping your windows up and knocking people down for that final can of Bushs Baked Beans, a miracle was happening. A sheep named Truffles gave birth to a black baby lamb at the Central Park Zoo moments before the storm was set to hit. Zookeepers were shocked to see this little bleating 8 lb. animal baby, as sheep usually give birth in the spring. (Looks like Truffles had a very busy April and by busy we mean sexual.) The keepers of the zoo scrambled to build Truffles and her newborn a makeshift shelter before Irene made landfall, and went ahead and named this lamb Irene Hope.


http://www.bestweekever.tv/2011-09-01/meet-irene-hope-a-hurricane-baby-lamb-miracle/

The article says the zoo keepers were surprised,  but if Truffles was given a CIDR it would have to have been planed.

Could this have happened naturally?


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## SheepGirl

Mike said:
			
		

> SheepGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How unusual is it for a Southdown sheep to be born in late August (like the one born in Central Park Zoo)?
> 
> Has that ever happened before?
> 
> 
> 
> It can be done, but that would mean the ewe would have to be bred in March. Normally more traditional, wool-type ewes (such as Southdowns) don't cycle that late naturally. In order to be bred that late in the season, the ewe probably had a CIDR used on her to get her to come into heat. A CIDR is an instrument you insert into the ewe's vulva and it releases (I believe) progesterone. After a couple of days, it is removed, and the ewes come into heat within a week.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So what do you make of this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While you were busy lazily taping your windows up and knocking people down for that final can of Bushs Baked Beans, a miracle was happening. A sheep named Truffles gave birth to a black baby lamb at the Central Park Zoo moments before the storm was set to hit. Zookeepers were shocked to see this little bleating 8 lb. animal baby, as sheep usually give birth in the spring. (Looks like Truffles had a very busy April and by busy we mean sexual.) The keepers of the zoo scrambled to build Truffles and her newborn a makeshift shelter before Irene made landfall, and went ahead and named this lamb Irene Hope.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> http://www.bestweekever.tv/2011-09-01/meet-irene-hope-a-hurricane-baby-lamb-miracle/
> 
> The article says the zoo keepers were surprised,  but if Truffles was given a CIDR it would have to have been planed.
> 
> Could this have happened naturally?
Click to expand...

I highly doubt it was natural. The latest we've ever had lambs born from a Babydoll (which is what Truffles is) was June. I think it was very irresponsible--and impossible--for the zoo keepers to not know their ewe was pregnant. Even when Babydolls have singles, they look like they are pregnant with twins.


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## aggieterpkatie

It could have been natural, but I agree it was highly irresponsible for zookeepers to not realize putting a ram and ewe together could result in lambs being born.


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## Mike

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> It could have been natural, but I agree it was highly irresponsible for zookeepers to not realize putting a ram and ewe together could result in lambs being born.


But how could it be natural if the ewes aren't naturally fertile in March?


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## aggieterpkatie

It's not 100%.  Some sheep can be fertile other times.     *Most* probably aren't fertile in March, but that doesn't mean *some* can't cycle.


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## kfacres

I have read very few posts on here- other than the first page.

I'll put my input...

I leave my ram and ewe lamb together until August, or September of their first year-- at that point, the ram lambs get removed and turned in with old ewes to breed.  I normally do not breed my first time ewe lambs- but some years I will turn rams in Nov 20 and leave in for a month-- will start lambing lamb April 20.  This year, I'm thinking about breeding all of my ewe lambs for March lambs- as I'm getting tired of those late/ worthless lambs-- and I'm in expansion mode with my flock.

I also leave my rams with the ewes nearly year round.  I do take the rams out for Jan through March, when baby lambs are being born.  I've had big bucks kill newly born lambs before.  

I try to breed all of my yearling and young ewes to lamb either twice a year, or three times in two years, and so most of the time odd time born lambs are desired-- either in the case of falls for show lambs-- or Mays-- for butcher lambs in the winter.  

I turn all of my mature ewes in with rams when I wean-- very often I can get several of them to breed naturally due to hormone swings.  The rest of my fall lambings are via CIDRS or sponges.  

In the thousands of replacement ewe lambs I have kept- I have had ONE get bred to lamb very early in life.  She was a February lamb- that got bred, and lambed in December at 10 months of age-- and raised one of two unassisted.  She was also a different breed, and a very early maturing sheep, whereas in the many other breeds we have produced-- most are later maturing.  

To the OP- I wouldn't think that leaving your lambs together would be a problem, or breeding your ewe lambs to lamb as yearlings should be either.  The only instances where I don't recommend breeding ewe lambs- would be if you wanted to have yearlings big enough to show-- if you are getting babydolls-- you're obviously not worried about having big sheep.  The breeding of ewe lambs does take extra care, and time though- but in the long run-- many trials show them to be better brood ewes and more profitable later in life.


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