# Rex color



## Mocksincerity (Dec 2, 2017)

This is my new standard Rex doe, she's still a baby. Her siblings were black otter and REW. She looks like a self black (with a bit of a brown tint to her that didn't show as much in the pics) at first glance but it seems she's not, lol. Her belly is not black and she has a bit of tan on the inside of her ears. Is she another color I'm not familiar with or is this just one of those colors or something like smut in reds that you end up with from bad breeding/bad color crossing/hidden genes?


----------



## promiseacres (Dec 2, 2017)

Maybe a poorly marked otter? Or agouti? Maybe the steel gene in play... 
Do you know her lineage?
@Bunnylady  may know better.


----------



## Mocksincerity (Dec 4, 2017)

Black otters, broken black/otter, self black, Rew most recently. I was wondering if she could be a color with a double Es?


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Dec 19, 2017)

Although I am not a genetics expert, but I have had some experience with REWs and steels showing up in crosses with SFs. I would say that her underside is definitely showing steel, so not a self, right? As I understand it, to show any steel, you have to have A_EsE, but I have read that EsEs may not show as fully black on the entire coat of the rabbit. (I actually have one right now that I suspect is a double steel but she is all black.) From what you have revealed in the general lineage, it is entirely possible that you have steel carriers with your otters and REWs. I am guessing that one of her parents was a REW (or a broken) with Agouti. If she is a double steel, all her siblings will carry steel also, which they will not show because they are either otters "at_" or they are REWs with "cc" that covers all the genetics. Again, I am not an expert, but that is my understanding.


----------



## Mocksincerity (Dec 20, 2017)

Thanks for the info. If I understand what you're saying, if she's showing steel than she can't be a true self because the visual effects of steel should not show up in her.

So she can't be a self. She has to either be an Agouti or a Tan pattern.

If I'm understanding this correctly she may be a double steel and that's why her underside is showing the steel (since it usually shows up in their coat somewhere yet they can appear at first glance to be self black) But since selfs can't show steel she has to either be an otter (tan) or an agouti that the REW gene was covering up? Is there any way or things to look for that would point to one pattern?

I'm still confused about this. I know tan has the solid top, you can't have an agouti color with the tan pattern (there aren't chinchilla otters). Does that point to her being otter? That's why the steel is showing on her belly rather than on top? Are otters/tan kind of self on top and agouti underneath. That would make since if steel can't show up in self as to why it's showing up only on her underside. But what about the other otter markings like the ears, nose, neck, and around the eyes? Wouldn't the steel show up here too? But instead of those markings (excluding ears) she's just black. Why no steeling around her eyes? Maybe I'm just not understanding how steel works, lol.

This is driving me nuts, lol. Not even for breeding reasons just because it's something so dang confusing and I really want it to make sense in my head. Thanks for the help so far tho!


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Dec 20, 2017)

Mocksincerity said:


> Thanks for the info. If I understand what you're saying, if she's showing steel than she can't be a true self because the visual effects of steel should not show up in her.


Correct.



Mocksincerity said:


> So she can't be a self. She has to either be an Agouti or a Tan pattern.


I am sorry that I may have added to your confusion but I will try to clarify better this time. As I understand it, she _HAS _to be Agouti. I do not have any experience with Otters but I have not found anything to suggest that Otters ("at" gene) can show Steel. I have only found it to be possible with the "A" Agouti gene.



Mocksincerity said:


> If I'm understanding this correctly she may be a double steel and that's why her underside is showing the steel (since it usually shows up in their coat somewhere yet they can appear at first glance to be self black) But since selfs can't show steel she has to either be an otter (tan) or an agouti that the REW gene was covering up? Is there any way or things to look for that would point to one pattern?
> 
> I'm still confused about this. I know tan has the solid top, you can't have an agouti color with the tan pattern (there aren't chinchilla otters). Does that point to her being otter? That's why the steel is showing on her belly rather than on top? Are otters/tan kind of self on top and agouti underneath. That would make since if steel can't show up in self as to why it's showing up only on her underside. But what about the other otter markings like the ears, nose, neck, and around the eyes? Wouldn't the steel show up here too? But instead of those markings (excluding ears) she's just black. Why no steeling around her eyes? Maybe I'm just not understanding how steel works, lol.
> 
> This is driving me nuts, lol. Not even for breeding reasons just because it's something so dang confusing and I really want it to make sense in my head. Thanks for the help so far tho!


I completely understand. It seems to me that she cannot be an Otter so let that go in your thoughts for now (unless someone with more knowledge has a differing opinion) and look just at the Agouti.

I am thinking of it this way. An Agouti with Steel (A_EsE) shows the Steel pattern on the top but has a lighter colored underside because a typical Agouti pattern allows the yellow pigment of the hair shaft to be seen on the underside.

So, imagine another layer of Steel covering a Gold-tipped Agouti (Steel). It would be possible that a double Steel (A_EsEs) _could_ show the gold-tipped steel on the hair shaft of the fur on the underside where there normally would be only yellow and be entirely black (or mostly black) on the coat where there already would be steel on the hair shaft, thus saturating it with black completely (or mostly) covering all the yellow, so black with no Gold Tips. (In some cases A_EsEs rabbit can be _entirely_ black, depending on other genetic factors that I am not sure we even really know right now because Steel is kind of a "sneaky" dominate gene.)

Does that make more sense? Do you know if one of the parents was a REW? That is were she would have gotten the Agouti. Both parents had to carry Steel for her to be a double steel, but one had to be an Agouti.

That is my understanding and I welcome the comments of anyone more knowledgeable on this subject.


----------



## Mocksincerity (Dec 20, 2017)

Finally someone says things that they can actually explain, lol. THANK YOU. I posted on a few other sites and everyone said otter but no one said why, so I just had this otter thing in my head. If her pedigree is correct the mother was black otter and her father was a broken black. But after speaking to her breeder she described the mother as a poorly marked black otter and the father was a broken black. Both sides had REW and she does have castor farther back as well so there is agouti.


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Dec 20, 2017)

At first sounded like the Agouti would have come from the broken black, but the black markings on him could/should have shown steel, _unless _he was also a double steel...?  Though, if he was showing steel, the breeder should have recognized it. 

The mother could have been a poorly marked otter or a self carrying steel, and she would not show the steel either way. However, there is also the possibility that she was an Agouti with double steel that the breeder did not recognize...? It is a guess, but it also could be that for the same reasons that you were thinking yours was an otter, she might have thought the same of the mother, although the steel could have been more hidden on hers.

So, it is possible you have a double steel...in fact, I am inclined to think you do, based on my limited knowledge and what your pretty little doe is showing us.

Merry Christmas!


----------



## Bunnylady (Dec 20, 2017)

My thought is that this probably_ is_ what Steel looks like on an Otter.

Otter looks like Self on the body, with the white "trim" of an Agouti. You can take any Self pattern color, and put Tan markings on it (Sable Marten, Torted Otter, just to name a couple).

The Self gene basically says that both black and red pigments can appear anywhere in the hair shaft, unrestricted. Black being, well, black, it usually covers up the red pigment, except when there are other genes at other loci in play that restrict it. The Agouti gene restricts the black pigment to only certain parts of the hairs, and certain areas of the rabbit's coat. The Steel gene loosens those restrictions, allowing the black pigment to run a bit further down the hair shaft, and in areas that the Agouti gene tends to keep black pigment out of.

Most of the Steels I have seen look like this:





Notice that the belly is dark, not light. I've seen a lot of Steels that are almost completely black (especially on the belly), with just a little bit of light ticking on the body. While some Steels do have lighter bellies, my observations lead me to believe that an agouti-based Steel that was lighter on the belly and solid black on the body would be pretty unusual.

I suspect nobody talks about Steel expressing on Tan, because that's one of those "whoopses!" that most people would go to great lengths to avoid. But when I try to imagine what Steel would look like on a Tan, I would expect the body to look like a Self (Steel doesn't express on Self, because Steel "fights" the restriction of black pigment, and Self doesn't restrict black pigment anyway). Areas where the Tan pattern restricts black (those Agouti-like light markings) would probably be at least partly obscured by the black that the steel allows to run in.

You say this doe has Castors in her ancestry, so she probably has some Rufous kicking her red/yellow pigment up a few notches. That would explain why her belly is tannish in color, rather than cream or white, and why the lacing on her ears is also so dark.

(Incidentally, a Chinchilla Otter is called a Silver Marten)


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Dec 20, 2017)

Bunnylady, you are certainly more experienced than I am. I have been studying genetics for just a little while and I would love to find more information about an otter with steel. I have read somewhere once that some breeders do believe that steel is expressed only in the tan areas, but I have not been able to find anything more on it, so I welcome your thoughts and any references you could share would be very much appreciated.

I realize one mistake I made in my thinking. Because I raise NZWs, I think I mentally was making that connection to the REWs that were in the lineage of this rabbit. In other words, I kind of cross bred two different breeds in my mind instead of thinking REW *otters* which, of course, would not have the Agouti gene. My bad.

Still, I have a few questions in regards to your thoughts on this, like the loss of the typical otter borders. For instance, if the belly is showing steel why not the other areas that would usually be cream or white also?



Bunnylady said:


> You say this doe has Castors in her ancestry, so she probably has some Rufous kicking her red/yellow pigment up a few notches. That would explain why her belly is tannish in color, rather than cream or white, and why the lacing on her ears is also so dark.



Am I understanding this correctly? Are you saying that an otter with steel should have a cream base on the underside, but it looks more like a typical GT Black Steel on the underside like because of the rufus factor?


----------



## Bunnylady (Dec 20, 2017)

No, I'm saying that an Otter Rex should have a cream-colored belly, and fawn colored ear lacing. I know pictures can be deceptive, but when I blow the pictures of this doe up, it looks like there is a bit more red pigment in the non-black parts of this rabbit's belly fur. There seems to be hints of ear lacing, but they, too, look more reddish than one would expect on an Otter.


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Dec 21, 2017)

Bunnylady, thanks for the information!


----------



## Mocksincerity (Dec 21, 2017)

Interesting thanks for the info. But I'm still stuck on this eye thing. Even on horribly marked otters I've never seen them without the lighter color around their eyes to some degree, but maybe that's just because of lack of experience. If that happens I suppose it could have happened here as well and she just got a lot of bad luck coat color/markings/pattern/stuff wise, lol. But if she is an otter with steel would there be a reason for the steel gene to do away with the other markings? And she does have a red cast to her in general even on her black fur. When she gets older I will be breeding her since the main point of my rabbits is meat/fur (I keep and tan pelts because I'm not going to waste any part of an animal) I won't keep any of her offspring since I have some really nice Rex from show breeders and sell a few of the best when I get them. I'm not going to mix this girls genes into that mix but is there anything I can breed her to that might answer some questions about what she's carrying?


----------



## Bunnylady (Dec 21, 2017)

Let's see if this clears anything up. This is a rabbit that is A_Ese:






I don't know if you can see it in this picture, but his belly is jet black, and there isn't even a hint of eye circles. You really can't discern any of the lighter Agouti-type markings on him. 

This is his mother, who is A_Esej. She kind of looks like a Silver-Tipped Steel in this picture, but that's just the effect of sunlight on glossy fur. She's actually completely black, with just a few scattered white hairs:





If Steel is at work on your rabbit, it could obscure a lot of the markings that you might otherwise expect to see.


----------



## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Dec 21, 2017)

I realize that Steel has other factors and traits that are unpredictable in many ways in how it presents, something genetic that has not yet been identified probably (and I certainly do not know much about otters or how steel would show on one), but I have had a number of steels. I even have two GT Black Steels presently and none of them has ever had a solid black belly or even a darker belly. Their bellies look pretty much like the rest of their coats with gold tips. So am I missing something here? 

One doe that I have presently I believe is Aa B_ Cc Dd EsE enen Sisi because she had a Blue SF dam aa B_ C_ dd E_ sisi and a NZW sire that I believe is A_ __ cc D_ Es_ Enen from what I have seen him throw. That Steel doe threw REW, Steel, and a solid Black with a new NZW buck I was test breeding for the broken gene En that I do not want in my crosses.


----------



## Mocksincerity (Dec 21, 2017)

I'm not sure if I'm being thick in the head or what but it didn't help, lol. I think I get what you were saying about steel. That rabbit is the steel pattern all over excluding the belly and if you zoom in it looks like it has the steel color under the eye as well (unless I'm wrong)  But I thought you were saying the black otter doe looks like that because steel is only effecting her agouti pattern parts (her sides/belly) Are the other parts, the white/cream markings in otters agouti or self? mainly the eye circles. Because if so those hairs should be effected as well, right? I'm just not getting why those parts on the doe are jet black shouldn't they be the same color as her belly/sides? Why does steel turn those completely black instead of the color of the other cream/white parts on her? I thought the steel gene didn't effect self? Or maybe I'm not understanding what makes the otter pattern the otter pattern? Lol, I think I'm giving up on understanding why this little girl looks the way she does. I did learn some useful stuff in general tho, thanks guys


----------

