# 6.5' Tposts - 4' fence hotwire at 5' - opinions please



## Bruce (Nov 2, 2016)

Hi all, last week I bought 30 7' T-posts from TSC. I started putting them in today (finally stopped raining for a couple of days) and after the 16th (yeah I'm slow) I think they are all 6.5' posts. Checked the receipt, yep I paid for 7' posts.

Planned:  7' T-posts 2' in the ground (2.5 would be better I'm sure), 4' sheep and goat fence to keep chickens and alpacas on the right side of the fence. Hotwire at 5' to hopefully prevent a GP from going over. I don't actually know how much "pressure" the dog will put on a fence with hotwire on it at any level. 

So now what do I do? 

Pound them in another 6" (except for the ones that hit ledge) and run the hotwire at 4.5'? Is that sufficient? I suppose I could put fiberglass rods (more$$  ) on each "short" post to bring the height up for the hotwire. Or maybe if that is all they are holding I can space them farther out so I don't need one on each T-post? The posts are at 10' intervals.
Leave them as they are and put the hotwire at 5' as planned?
Buy a puller and put in 7's?
Shy of pulling them all out I have no way to prove to TSC that they weren't 7' other than my word that the guy from the store got all the bundles from the same rack. But I will try when I return the remaining 14 posts.

And a hot wire question. Thin tape is most visible, rope second, solid wire nearly invisible. Visible sounds good but I do not know if the conductivity of it is reasonably similar to solid wire for relatively short fence. Even long term I don't think the fence would be more than a mile of wire if I end up with 1 high and 1 low (in case of digging).

And a fence charger question. I've seen posts suggesting that Zareba isn't all that good, Cyclops and Gallagher maybe better. Opinions?

Thanks


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2016)

Cyclops is the king and has a great repair policy if anything ever goes wrong, but they are proud of tho$e thing$. Gallagher would be my next choice. Zareba has gotten better I've heard on their better energizers, but their eco levels not-so-much from what I've read over on the cattle boards. I have one of their 10j 100 mile chargers and it's worked fine for 2 years now.

If it's permanent fence, I'd use HT wire myself.  I just don't have much use for temporary anything, and everyone I've seen use the tape around here is always having to go out and hang it back up or replace it, or rehang it when a big windstorm blows it against the rest of the fence. 

As far as your 'short' posts, if you think you will have a future use for a post puller, I'd go ahead and get or borrow a puller and just pull the 16 you have in the ground up where you want them.  They should stay there ok with the spade biting in. I have a Preifert model I use a lot and can pull a post with little to no effort in about 1-2 minutes tops no matter how long it's been in the ground. A little learning curve t it, but pulling one up 6" is only about 2-3 jacks on the handle--the gripper drops right down by itself each time you raise the handle. (I took that blasted hook off mine--just gets in the way and I don't pull wooden posts anyway) I always look at the long term value I'll get from a tool, across the life of the tool instead of just the upfront cost to get it. (if it's soggy ground, you may have to put a piece of board under the puller--the base is only about 6"x6" and may go down in really wet soil-tho it will eventually stop..somewhere.
https://www.priefert.com/products/fencing-aids/t-post-pullers


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## babsbag (Nov 2, 2016)

I used the hook on my puller for the first time the other day. I had a post that was SHORT, too short for the puller to reach so I tied baling twine around the post and the hook and pulled it that way. Would've used the tractor if I could have gotten it in the barn. 

I use 6' posts with 4' fencing and hot wire right at the top; my dogs don't challenge it but some may be able to clear that height, depends on the dog.  I use poly wire (not the tape), which is temporary, but at 7 years it is just starting to fall apart and that was the cheap stuff. I like it as it easy to install, easy to splice, and goes around curves (i.e. trees) better. I can make it tight so the goats don't get tangled in it when they reach for branches. It is also easy to do wires across gates with handles. I have only worked with the HT wire once and just wasn't a fan on property that isn't level.   You could run the fiberglass posts on a few t-posts, wouldn't have to do all of them. If it is a straight line I can go about 20' between the add-on posts with the poly wire. 

I have had Zareba DC charges. The first one went about 3 years, the next two about  1.5 years, the last one made it 2 months. I have also had Fi-Shock which lasted a year. I am now using a Patriot, but  haven't had it long enough to judge.  They have all been 25 mile 1 joule DC chargers.


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## Bruce (Nov 2, 2016)

@greybeard "As far as your 'short' posts, if you think you will have a future use for a post puller, I'd go ahead and get or borrow a puller and just pull the 16 you have in the ground up where you want them."

Maybe I wasn't clear. I have 5' of post out of the ground now, which is what I planned. But that means only 1.5' in the ground. Not sure if that is OK. No huge animals like cattle or horses so I don't expect any large force on them. 

I was able to get my remaining 14 6.5' posts replaced with 7' posts and credited for the "overcharge" on the 16 6.5' posts. The cashier told the guy to make sure he measured the posts. So back I went to do the swap and he measured the first bundle in the 7' rack, then a second and a third. Turns out someone (he said the inventory people) put a bunch of 6.5 bundles on the top of the 7' rack.


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## Bruce (Nov 2, 2016)

OK, now I am confused (OK, maybe that isn't unusual)

Cyclops Champ: "Stored energy" 6.3 joules, output 5 joules. Should be able to handle a mile of wire, 40 acres. $195 (in specs it says $250 and that is what Amazon charges). There are 2 that are smaller but this is the lowest that meets the "requirement" of 1 mile, 1 strand.
Gallagher M160 "Stored energy" 1.6 joules. Claims to handle 11 miles of wire, 60 acres. $120
That is a LOT of difference! And Champ says "Battery" on it but is listed under A/C units. Is it actually battery powered, not A/C? If it is, the next one up is the Brut for $340.

There is a Cyclops Hero that has 1.9 stored 1.5 output for $140 but it doesn't come up in the "Which Charger" with input of 1 mile of 1 strand HT wire. Neither does the Stallion: 3.2 stored 2.5 output for $175

So can the Gallagher M160 really cover a larger area with much lower joules than the Cyclops Champ at less than half the cost?


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 2, 2016)

I wouldn't want to brush against that 5 joule charger!

I accidentally brushed against a wire off our 4 joule charger. My hand also was touching the T-post. 

I have been electrocuted quite a few times... One time part of my hand turned black. 

This was the absolute worst. It nearly knocked me down and it felt as someone beat my chest with a baseball bat, my hand felt severely burnt, and about half of my body felt the numbness/tingling for several hours. 

Just be careful, especially if you have young human kids around. 

1 joule tends to work well around here.


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## babsbag (Nov 2, 2016)

1 joule works great for my goats, dogs, and ME. I can't even imagine touching a 4. OUCH. 

I think that they sell the Champ in battery or AC. Personally I wouldn't spend that much on a charger, not for dogs and alpacas. Maybe a bull ???


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## greybeard (Nov 3, 2016)

Bruce said:


> OK, now I am confused (OK, maybe that isn't unusual)
> 
> Cyclops Champ: "Stored energy" 6.3 joules, output 5 joules. Should be able to handle a mile of wire, 40 acres. $195 (in specs it says $250 and that is what Amazon charges). There are 2 that are smaller but this is the lowest that meets the "requirement" of 1 mile, 1 strand.
> Gallagher M160 "Stored energy" 1.6 joules. Claims to handle 11 miles of wire, 60 acres. $120
> ...


There is a Champ in each of the Cyclops lines.
110v ac powered Champ
12 V C battery powered Champ
Solar charged/internal battery powered Champ.

Champ is just their name for their medium range energizer. Kinda like a gasoline and diesel powered Chev Silverado--both are still Silverados, just powered differently.
Look to the left on this page and you will see all three type chargers  and each model.
http://www.cyclopsfence.com/order_online.htm


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## babsbag (Nov 3, 2016)

We have a small solar panel that charges the 12v battery that my fence energizer uses. Works well and a lot cheaper than the all in one solar/battery units.


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## Bruce (Nov 3, 2016)

Thanks for the link @greybeard, very helpful. And I notice free shipping in the Continental US with a cheaper price than Amazon. I notice that on the Cyclops site, they have the same problem with pictures. Click on the A/C Stallion and get the battery picture. Click on the battery Hero and get the A/C picture.

OK, so does the $120 Gallagher really cover a 4X larger area/length of wire with reasonably equivalent performance to the 1.5 joule $159 Cyclops Hero?? I'm trying to understand how that can work. As DD1 likes to say "it doesn't math". No idea where she picked that up. Intelligent and 23 years old.


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## greybeard (Nov 3, 2016)

Disclaimer: I do not sell or otherwise have any connection to Cyclops, other than having read a lot of great things about them on the cattle boards.

To answer your question:
Depends how each manufacturer defines "mile" I suppose, and how they market things. I view a mile as one conductor, 1 mile in total length. 2 conductors, one mile long each is 2 miles. 3 conductors etc etc.. (but the return path also has to be considered in some fashion, as the shock never occurs until that pulse returns to the negative terminal on the energizer's board)
Each brand seems to have their own way of marketing--some say joules is the best way to compare--others claim joules is a marketing ploy and KVs is all that matters.
I do have a 100 mile EAC100M-Z Zareba that has worked for me for the most part (full size cattle) but it really won't handle any weeds without a great loss of voltage, even tho it says it is rated for wet weed growth, and some of the reviews on it's performance and reliability  are dismal..
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/zareba-100-mile-ac-low-impedance-fence-charger

I am running 2 strands around ~40 acres with the Zareba and currently getting about 6500V at the furthermost point in very very dry soil and grass conditions.

 I don't know about all of them, but I did see last night, that Cyclops has a graphic on one of their webpages  indicating they are using 5 conductors, and assuming heavy weed growth on the fence. (lower right--same webpage as I linked before) They are saying 'rule of thumb=1 joule is good for one mile with one strand".



 

http://www.cyclopsfence.com/hero_ac.htm

Basically, it boils down to "take your pick" based on which advertising line is most convincing, as well as your actual needs without going way overboard.


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## Bruce (Nov 3, 2016)

OK, I see. They are likely the most "honest" in their advertizing given they are using 1 joule per mile per strand of OVERGROWN fence. Worst case scenario. I imagine others are claiming distance based on totally clean fence.

At the moment I'm enclosing 1 acre. There won't be any hotwire on 70' of it, I doubt anything will try to jump up 8' and climb over the barn (peaks at something over 25') to get out  so basically 1,000 feet. I'm leaning toward the A/C Hero or Stallion. Both say 1 ground rod which is nice because finding 30 feet to install 3 might be inconvenient. I actually have 3 ground rods that were installed by the previous owner. The are all in a cluster about 3' square. Not exactly "by the book" and they are in the area I enclosed just outside the north end of the barn so the alpacas could come and go at will. I found a sh1tton of rubble he had buried there when I was trying to put in fence posts. Don't know if he did that before or after sticking the ground rods in. And I have NO idea if they are 6' long. Having seen the way that guy did stuff, I wouldn't be surprised to find there are three 2' rods (adds up to 6' right??) because he kept hitting the cr@p he buried.

I read on the Gallagher site about carrying ground wire out along the fence in dry conditions, same info I saw earlier about places where the ground freezes. Sounds like I should to that. So the plan, unless someone tells me it is NOT a good idea, is a single hot at 5' and ground at 4.5'. I suppose I could tap in those extra ground rods out along the fence but I don't know if that would be of any value.

Also, how many people actually build their fences with underground wire at the gates to keep the entire system hot when a gate is opened? I imagine the animals learn to stay back from the fence pretty quickly so having a gate open for a minute or two while you pass through isn't likely a big risk. Obviously this applies only in situations where the gates are made of hotwire or there is wire running above a gate that an animal could jump. If neither of the above is true, I guess one would have to bury a conductor so they wouldn't need a wire crossing the gate.


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## greybeard (Nov 3, 2016)

I do run the high voltage insulated wire underground @ gateways--inside PVC because my cows always want to follow me thru if I'm in my truck or on tractor & I simply hate messing with those springloaded hot wires at the gates and so I don't run a hot wire at the gates--but that's cows--not smaller ruminants. (Cows generally want to go thru a fence--not over it--If I have a jumper, it grows wheels real quick)

I also do not run both a hot and ground wire all around my fences. Just 2 hots and let the earth provide pulse pathway back to the energizer thru the animal's body to soil, but I can see the benefit to that method in smaller ruminants and maybe as predator deterrent..

Good luck


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## Bruce (Nov 3, 2016)

I agree, not having to mess with a removable wire over a gate would be better. It would be nice if someone made a 5' agricultural gate, maybe I just haven't found them. I guess 4' is fine for cattle, not worth much for chickens, larger dogs, etc. Maybe I'll need to buy 4' gates and fix pieces of cattle panels to them to make them taller. Kinda cheesy though.


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## farmerjan (Nov 4, 2016)

Find a company that caters to exotics like deer and you should find gates of different heights; mainly 8 - 12 ft but a friend that used to raise both fallow deer and some exotic sheep, like true mouflons, had 6 ft fence around the sheep enclosures and it seemed to me the gates were the same height.  He's been gone for nearly 20 years and no one in the family left to talk to, but it would seem that some internet searching would find something.  You can't even get a liscense in Va to run fallow deer anymore..... or try asking at a zoo or a wild animal park if there are any around.  They would have a handle on where to get supplies like that....And they might have some old ones that they have replaced that would serve your purposes with a new coat of paint that would not be safe in a commercial operation that is open to the public and up for inspection all the time.
That's another reason we run llamas and donkeys with the sheep we have instead of dogs.  I farm sat for a guy that had 2 dogs and they were constantly getting out and would go under or make a way through anything.  Got tiresome and the neighbors were pretty sick of it.
Chickens will go over anything they can FLY UP TO.  The trick with them is to not have anything solid on the top that they can get their feet on as a temp perch as they go over.  Most chickens can go through the squares in a cattle panel or normal field fence.


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## greybeard (Nov 4, 2016)

Bruce said:


> I agree, not having to mess with a removable wire over a gate would be better. It would be nice if someone made a 5' agricultural gate, maybe I just haven't found them. I guess 4' is fine for cattle, not worth much for chickens, larger dogs, etc. Maybe I'll need to buy 4' gates and fix pieces of cattle panels to them to make them taller. Kinda cheesy though.


I made one from a corral panel .
Keep your eyes open for used 6' corral panels or if it's really important, spend the $ for a new one. They generally have 8" of 'u' or 'j' legs under them. Cut those off,which  leaves over 5' of usable gate . 




Go to your local farm supply and get 2 of these:




Instant 5 ft+ gate that will outlast any tube gate. Be aware tho, that a 8' 10' -12'-14' corral panel is a true dimension, where as a regular tube gate measures 3" less than stated length. Set your posts accordingly or allow for the gate to swing in only one direction, while closing against the latch post--not swing thru the opening. 
I did one this way, in a place I had room only for 7' of gate. I just whacked the  legs off, and shortened the length of on an old 10' panel. 
Hog ring some small opening field fence wire to the gate to make it chicken and predator proof.


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## Bruce (Nov 4, 2016)

Thanks @greybeard ! I see TSC has a blue economy version 12' wide for $80 (they also have a red one with the same description for more than 2X the price???). Just so happens I plan on three 12' gates on my fencing project. I know I should put in more but no time for all those properly braced posts to hang them on.

So the 5' height is from the bottom of the bottom tube to the top of the top tube and the U legs are extra height? One reviewer said they were taller than expected - 62". Seems like that would be with the legs. It has fittings on the ends to connect them together, probably have to cut those off as well the hang the gate. 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/economy-corral-panel-12-ft-w-x-5-ft-h-3603920


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## greybeard (Nov 4, 2016)

Bruce said:


> Thanks @greybeard ! I see TSC has a blue economy version 12' wide for $80 (they also have a red one with the same description for more than 2X the price???). Just so happens I plan on three 12' gates on my fencing project. I know I should put in more but no time for all those properly braced posts to hang them on.
> 
> So the 5' height is from the bottom of the bottom tube to the top of the top tube and the U legs are extra height? One reviewer said they were taller than expected - 62". Seems like that would be with the legs. It has fittings on the ends to connect them together, probably have to cut those off as well the hang the gate.
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/economy-corral-panel-12-ft-w-x-5-ft-h-3603920


yep. The advertised  height includes the legs. It's why I said to look for a 6' panel . Once ya cut the legs off, you have approx a 5 foot tall gate--maybe a little taller, depending how the particular manufacturer designed the leg. 
All mine are Prefeirt  or Tuffmac and are 72" from ground to top tube--that includes the leg.
https://www.priefert.com/products/6-foot-tall-panels-and-gates/6-foot-tall-premier-panels
(specs are at bottom)

I don't know if TSC carries a 6' panel or not. 


I'll try to get a picture of the one I did tomorrow.


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## Bruce (Nov 5, 2016)

I didn't see anything but 5' panels on their site. Hmmm, I have to "fill in" so the chickens don't go through anyway. Maybe a stacked layer of 2x4 fencing that covers the legs so I still have 5'? Two need that "feature", the other is just to keep the alpacas from coming up between the barns. So, I guess at the moment I only need two 5' high gates. Maybe I should use field or sheep and goat fence instead (at least the bottom layer) since it is much stiffer than the 2x4 fencing I have, those 2 also need to keep a dog on the proper side, can't have him going under.


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## greybeard (Nov 5, 2016)

I forgot the reason I used this panel--it had one of the j legs and the bottom tube rusted  in two, so I cut the bottom tube off as well. As hanging, originally a 12' x 72" tall panel (including j legs) it now measures 56 inches bottom tube to top tube.  It's only purpose is to allow cattle to move into the area behind the gate without having to walk all the way down the fence in background to a 12' gate.


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