# Hackamore, snaffle, shank snaffle, curb.....all Greek....HELP a Newbie



## skillet_scramble (Jul 11, 2011)

I am not new to livestock but horses are a new thing to me and recently acquired a 5 year old gelding mustang that is pretty gentle to ride but I'm not sure that I have the right bridle setup. The previous owner was not someone who was a very credible person and not had experience with any livestock but that doesn't mean she knows less than me about horses by any means. I'm just trying to gain some knowledge and develop a horse that I can use for working a few cows and that my kids can ride for pleasure. They have ridden this horse in the pasture with no problems other than getting him to slow or stop. I rode him working cows once and he neck reigned well with a bitless(I assume hackamore) bridle but I also had problems getting him to stop. The previous owner gave me the bitless system that she said she used with him and a loose bit and I also received a shank snaffle from someone else.

The problem with the bits are that he throws his head continuously and his mouth is always lathered up from him chewing and mouthing the bit. The next obvious thing I will check is to determine if the bit is sized right. 

With all of you expirienced riders should I work with the bitless or the bit? He seems more comfortable with the bitless but it may be because the bit I tried wasn't sized correctly. Like I metioned before he did reign well with the bitless but wanted to run when I didn't want him to.


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## chubbydog811 (Jul 11, 2011)

You should have your vet check his teeth as well - if he is tossing his head like that, there could me more of an issue than bad fitting, or him not liking it (so to speak)...That would be the first place I would check if it were my horse. 

I like to start light and work up - if I trust the horse enough, I will work in a plain snaffle. If I need breaks, I go to the double jointed kimberwick (has a curb chain). I like riding with a loose rein, lots of seat/legs, and NOT hanging on their mouths, so I try to find the best fit to ride with a loose rein. Not saying you necessarily need a kimberwick, just saying try something with a curb chain for your breaking problem (going by the vet ruling out a tooth issue)


Also would like to add that it could be bad/lack of training for the not stopping problem...


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## mydakota (Jul 12, 2011)

You can't stop a horse with a bit.  Any bit.  You stop a horse with training and conditioning for response.  A horse can learn to run through any bit, so you have to go back to basics, and recondition this boy for response.  If you just keep upping the ante with stronger and stronger bits? He will just learn to run through all of them and then where will you be?   Also, there is no such thing as a "shanked snaffle".  If it has a shank, it is not a snaffle. Any bit that has a shank and fulcrum (chin strap) is a leverage bit that puts pressure on the horses curb,  and is, therefore, a "curb" bit.   A broken mouthpiece does not a snaffle make.  A true "snaffle" bit is a bit with NO leverage, and a direct line of pull from the horses mouth to your hand.  The mouthpiece can be broken or solid. If the bit you are using has a broken mouthpiece and a fairly straight shank, it is most likely a "tom thumb".  Tom thumb bits make really good paper weights. They are typically balanced poorly, and provide little if any "release".  They are poor bits.  The same bit with the shanks swept back is somewhat better, as it does provide a marginal release. 

I have ridden a runaway.  It is dangerous and scary. Is there any way you could get someone to help show you how to condition this boy to stop when you stop with your seat? And on top of that, how to teach him to evade the pressure of a bit by GIVING to it rather than running through it? It is kind of something you have to see.  It is pretty hard to explain how it should look/feel over the net. Especially in the beginning, when his efforts might by small and not too clear cut. 

I will second having his teeth checked.  Long points and a lack of a bit seat can  make a bit feel uncomfortable and awkward in the horses mouth.  The head tossing is evasion.  He is either evading the bit because of pain, or because he has been ridden by someone with uneducated hands, who did not understand the art of release, and so the horse sought his own release by tossing his head.   

Some patience and retraining can go lightyears towards making a horse like this a solid citizen.  Good luck to you.


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## skillet_scramble (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for all of the info from both of you. My inexperience is obvious here and was looking for a simple solution but I don't mind working with this horse because he really is gentle and easy to reign (turns well with just some slight neck reigning and will also back up easily) I think he will end up being a very good horse for what I need without too much effort.

Does anyone know of a good book for inexperienced riders that covers riding and equipment? 

Here is the bit that I called a shank snaffle only because that is what it was called on the website where it was being sold. This one looks identical to the one I have.


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## mydakota (Jul 12, 2011)

It is common to call any bit with a broken mouthpiece a snaffle.  I just isn't accurate.  Just remember--"snaffle" =no leverage and a direct line of pull from the horses mouth to your hands. "Curb"= a lever and fulcrum (shank and chinstrap) that equal LEVERAGE and pressure on the horses "curb".  Whether or not the mouthpiece is broken or solid is irrelevant.  It is a very common mistake.  I am surprised a catalog would do that. You would expect them to know better.  Maybe they are just using the common vernacular, whether or not it is accurate, in order to sell more bits. 

The bit you have pictured is not a true Tom Thumb.  That is a good thing. The large rein rings and the fact that the shanks swing backward a bit does weight the end of the shanks and will cause them to swing forward in the horses mouth when pressure on the reins is released. You want there to be a definite difference between bit position when the reins are engaged vs when they are loose. This is what gives you "release".  The horse learns from the release of pressure, not from pressure itself.   This bit is better than what I pictured you were using.  This bit should have a different position in the horses mouth for "engaged" vs "neutral".  You need that for any bit to be worth a darn.


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## skillet_scramble (Jul 12, 2011)

mydakota said:
			
		

> It is common to call any bit with a broken mouthpiece a snaffle.  I just isn't accurate.  Just remember--"snaffle" =no leverage and a direct line of pull from the horses mouth to your hands. "Curb"= a lever and fulcrum (shank and chinstrap) that equal LEVERAGE and pressure on the horses "curb".  Whether or not the mouthpiece is broken or solid is irrelevant.  It is a very common mistake.  I am surprised a catalog would do that. You would expect them to know better.  Maybe they are just using the common vernacular, whether or not it is accurate, in order to sell more bits.
> 
> The bit you have pictured is not a true Tom Thumb.  That is a good thing. The large rein rings and the fact that the shanks swing backward a bit does weight the end of the shanks and will cause them to swing forward in the horses mouth when pressure on the reins is released. You want there to be a definite difference between bit position when the reins are engaged vs when they are loose. This is what gives you "release".  The horse learns from the release of pressure, not from pressure itself.   This bit is better than what I pictured you were using.  This bit should have a different position in the horses mouth for "engaged" vs "neutral".  You need that for any bit to be worth a darn.


Thanks again for all the help. I just need someone locally that can train me to know how to ride and what to look for in horse mannerisms. If this is a suitable bit then maybe I will continue to use it once I get other things checked out, such as teeth and the actual fit of the bit. It does also have a chain underneath that is attached at the ring where the cheekpiece is attached. Is this correct? Also the side pieces on this bit will actually swivel when the reins and cheek pieces aren't attached. Is the correct position with the bit arching in an upward position in the middle to contact the roof of the mouth rather than down toward the tongue of the horse?

Thanks again.


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## skillet_scramble (Jul 12, 2011)

mydakota said:
			
		

> It is common to call any bit with a broken mouthpiece a snaffle.  I just isn't accurate.  Just remember--"snaffle" =no leverage and a direct line of pull from the horses mouth to your hands. "Curb"= a lever and fulcrum (shank and chinstrap) that equal LEVERAGE and pressure on the horses "curb".  Whether or not the mouthpiece is broken or solid is irrelevant.  It is a very common mistake.  I am surprised a catalog would do that. You would expect them to know better.  Maybe they are just using the common vernacular, whether or not it is accurate, in order to sell more bits.
> 
> The bit you have pictured is not a true Tom Thumb.  That is a good thing. The large rein rings and the fact that the shanks swing backward a bit does weight the end of the shanks and will cause them to swing forward in the horses mouth when pressure on the reins is released. You want there to be a definite difference between bit position when the reins are engaged vs when they are loose. This is what gives you "release".  The horse learns from the release of pressure, not from pressure itself.   This bit is better than what I pictured you were using.  This bit should have a different position in the horses mouth for "engaged" vs "neutral".  You need that for any bit to be worth a darn.


The bit does definitely swing forward when I release the reins.


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## mydakota (Jul 12, 2011)

In a horses mind, a top priority is to evade pressure. For most horses, that means bracing against it, or pushing against it, or fleeing it,  or fighting it.  You are seeing that in your boy with the head tossing. I am willing to bet he is doing it in a dozen other ways too, that are more subtle or that just don't cause you too much problem, so you don't recognize it or worry about it much.  That is normal in a beginner.  Don't beat yourself up. Instead, look for all the other ways he is bracing or avoiding/evading.  You have to go to the beginning and teach this boy a different way to think. He needs to learn that pressure can also be made to go away by going soft and yielding to it. This is counter to the way his brain is wired, so you will have to teach him this and condition him for it.  This will take time and work, because he is pretty far along in his training to have to learn a whole new way of thinking. Furthermore, yielding has to become what he tries FIRST.  He is going to have to completely rewire his brain.  If he has had some success with bracing/tossing/fighting, this is going to take some consistent effort and good timing. 

One of the things I do with my very young horses--the ones I am not yet starting the groundwork on for riding, is to take my right hand and put it high on their neck just back of the poll.  Then take my left hand and put it over their nose about 3 inches above their nostrils. Put gentle downward pressure on both hands.  When you feel the horse start to brace against you, continue with the gentle pressure and start rocking your hands horizontally back and forth.  Most horses will dip downward just a tiny bit with their heads when the pressure changes from gentle steady downward pressure to the gentle downward pressure with rocking movement.  The very second that you feel him dip his head down?  Totally release him with both hands and tell him he is a good boy.  He just took his first step in evading pressure by GIVING to it. Do this a couple more times just to establish in his mind that giving to the pressure WORKED! It made the pressure go away! In his mind, this is now another tool he has besides bracing/tossing/fighting. Do this regularly while you are establishing it.  Find ways for yielding to pressure to give him what he really wants. Release. Get his mind working for you. You can do this in very young foals even.  That is what it all comes down to.  You don't want blind or fearful compliance. You want a horse who has been taught to think like a partner.  That is the basis for conditioning for response. You have to set the foundation in his mind that he needs to find a way to yield to your pressure for the pressure to go away.  When it is done well, it is amazing how little pressure it actually takes for a horse to respond.  It is a beautiful thing--both art and science. 

I have an 8 year old Arab/Quarter gelding who is a very sensitive soul.  He is pretty athletic and pretty reactive by nature. When he was very young, on one of our first rides out of the arena the first or maybe early in the second year he was under saddle, we had an incident where we were out riding in the late evening by the side of the road.  Apparently, a mother deer had bedded one of her fawns down in our flight path and we didn't see it in the twilight. As Dakota stepped over this fawn, the little guy finally stood up bleating.  Dakota (my gelding) nearly had a heart attack.  He gathered himself, spun 180 degrees, and then just stopped.  I felt him quiver, he was tight as a drum--take a deep breath--and then he dropped his head down level with his chest and willed himself to go totally soft.  It was his language for "help me--what do you want me to do?"   He was yielding to the pressure of being scared by the fawn, and looking to his leader to keep him safe and tell him what to do.  It was totally counter to his reactive nature. But he had been taught how to think that way and when the chips were down, he went back to what he was taught. It nearly made me cry.  It is a beautiful gift when a horse overrules his nature and yields to his rider and has enough trust to put himself in your hands that way. We planted that seed in his head when he was a yearling and I started with the exercise above.  Lots of others as well of course.  But we started with that one.  That is what I mean when I say "condition for response".  It has to be so practiced, and so ingrained, that it is his first line of recourse when he feels pressure of any kind.


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## mydakota (Jul 12, 2011)

skillet_scramble said:
			
		

> mydakota said:
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> 
> 
> ...


A curb bit must be ridden with a curb chain/strap.  Otherwise it is worse than useless.  The natural curve of the bit should be away from the tongue. It should arch gently out from the tongue. The swiveling cheek pieces are fine, just make sure that it isn't pinching the corners of his mouth.  You can get bit gaurds to put there if they are.  Check for rough spots any where the bit moves.  This would include the mouthpiece as well as the cheek piece.  It needs to be smooth and not pinch.


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## michickenwrangler (Jul 12, 2011)

I would suggest taking some riding lessons on this horse. An  inexperienced horse and inexperienced rider are usually not the best combination. 

Also would back up the others on getting the horse's teeth checked. He likely has some wolf teeth that need pulling.


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## skillet_scramble (Jul 13, 2011)

michickenwrangler said:
			
		

> I would suggest taking some riding lessons on this horse. An  inexperienced horse and inexperienced rider are usually not the best combination.
> 
> Also would back up the others on getting the horse's teeth checked. He likely has some wolf teeth that need pulling.


Yeah, thanks for the info. I will definitely consider some rider training and having the horses teeth checked. I'm guessing this would this be done by the Vet?


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## michickenwrangler (Jul 13, 2011)

Vet or horse dentist. Vets can use sedatives while horse dentists cannot.


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## rascal (Jul 22, 2011)

mydakota said:
			
		

> It is common to call any bit with a broken mouthpiece a snaffle.  I just isn't accurate.  Just remember--"snaffle" =no leverage and a direct line of pull from the horses mouth to your hands. "Curb"= a lever and fulcrum (shank and chinstrap) that equal LEVERAGE and pressure on the horses "curb".  Whether or not the mouthpiece is broken or solid is irrelevant.  It is a very common mistake.  I am surprised a catalog would do that. You would expect them to know better.  Maybe they are just using the common vernacular, whether or not it is accurate, in order to sell more bits.


Whew! After being in MN for 20 years  I'm thrilled to see a "snaffle" (broken bit)  might be just a southern thing. As everyone I know in TX calls all brokens "snaffles". DRIVES ME NUTS!!!!


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