# Who would like to discuss Herd shares?



## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2019)

I thought it would be a good opportunity to talk about herd shares.
Some points of discussion could be-
~Are you involved in a herd share
~What is a herd share 
~advantages/disadvantages
~legal / illegal in your state
~pros/cons
~things to think about when considering 

Please add to the list.

We have a really good group of people here and I would love to see more discussions and interaction.
I thought this would be a good topic, hope you all agree and will join in.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2019)

I should have added, I don't know much about them so this will be a great learning experience for me as well!


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 15, 2019)

Following...


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## greybeard (Jan 15, 2019)

add to the list:

Is it or is it not just a method of circumventing regs re the selling of raw milk or other regulated products?
Which of the contracted  members has the liability should something 'go wrong'?
Are the herdshare share contracts actually binding or even legal?
USDA & FDA apparently have issued their own set of guidance on this. How do they view and react to what regs a state enacts?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 15, 2019)

@greybeard  -spot on. These are the things I think about as well.


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## Mike CHS (Jan 15, 2019)

It may be hard to separate laws because each state is so different.  I also don't know enough about how USDA interacts with the state Dept of Agriculture.

Tennessee legalized the "herd share" act in 2009 that refers to cows but goes on to include all hoofed animals.
The law reads in part:

T*here are only 2 ways to legally obtain raw milk in the state of Tennessee right now. Here they are below.*

*It is legal for farmers to sell raw milk FOR PET CONSUMPTION only.
It must be labeled as such.*
*It is legal to obtain fresh raw milk through share programs. either cow
shares, herd shares, or farm shares. *
*I can sell meat shares or even individual cuts by getting the Ag Dept to certify our handling area which we will do soon.*


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## Southern by choice (Jan 15, 2019)

Mike CHS said:


> It may be hard to separate laws because each state is so different.  I also don't know enough about how USDA interacts with the state Dept of Agriculture.
> 
> Tennessee legalized the "herd share" act in 2009 that refers to cows but goes on to include all hoofed animals.
> The law reads in part:
> ...



Yes, that aspect will be difficult.  

I do think laying thoughts out and seeing things from different perspectives will be beneficial.
I also don't believe we will all agree on the subject but can still be really thought provoking and civil! 
I love learning new things and sharing info, should be fun.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 15, 2019)

Mike CHS said:


> T*here are only 2 ways to legally obtain raw milk in the state of Tennessee right now. Here they are below.*
> 
> *It is legal for farmers to sell raw milk FOR PET CONSUMPTION only.
> It must be labeled as such.*
> ...



VA is almost identical.   Pet or craft use, labeled, ok.  If a herd share, you are a part owner & using "own" milk.   The farmer is paid to "board and care for" your share of the animals.

Yes, it is a way to   "_just a method of circumventing regs re the selling of raw milk or other regulated products?"  as GB states.  _
The alternative is a dairy, licensed, inspections & huge expense for simply fresh but, pasteurized milk.  Not raw.

There are 4 or 5 cow share herds within 50 miles of me, doing ok.  There used to be a goat herd but, the lady stopped because she got tired of milking "so many".  So cut down slowly and is now down to 2 does & a buck for home use.  Had done this for almost 7 years.

The contracts can be upheld in court if properly written.  After all, you are selling an interest in your animals.  The co-owners do not have the responsibility of care and receive a share "their interest" of the milk produced.  Contracts I've seen state the co-owner buys into the herd (generally a nominal fee $25-100 per share, depending on type animal) caregiver farm handles all breeding, keeps all off spring, has no responsibility to co-owner for any losses of animals and has cost of all care, vet, housing, etc.   The "co-owner share" is a silent partner who pays a monthly fee for board and receives a specified portion of milk per share....agreeing that some months no milk may be produced and fee still due. Generally a limit to how much time can lapse with no milk.   MOST farms stagger breeding so that milk is available all year.  Contracts are not transferrable by co-owner but, can be cancelled in writing.  These are generalizations of those I have read.  As an "owner" you can use the milk raw without legal issues, you are not buying it.

The farms have their own methods for owners getting their milk -- pick up, delivery (for a fee, generally to a location where several will pick up.  Often this is an owner, who receives and holds for them.  A network.)  Some groups take turns to drive to the farm for several, etc.  I calculated the income from some cows (per contracted price & aver gallons per day +/-) and those gals brought in an at least $900 per mo each.

Often the caretaker farm also sells other items … eggs, chickens, veggies, hay, etc.

In VA the officials rarely "bother" these share farms, unless there is something along the lines of neglect or abuse claims to them.   In other words, the share herds are tolerated.


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## greybeard (Jan 15, 2019)

Mini Horses said:


> The contracts can be upheld in court if properly written. After all, you are selling an interest in your animals. The co-owners do not have the responsibility of care and receive a share "their interest" of the milk produced. Contracts I've seen state the co-owner buys into the herd (generally a nominal fee $25-100 per share, depending on type animal) caregiver farm handles all breeding, keeps all off spring, has no responsibility to co-owner for any losses of animals and has cost of all care, vet, housing, etc. The "co-owner share" is a silent partner who pays a monthly fee for board and receives a specified portion of milk per share....agreeing that some months no milk may be produced and fee still due. Generally a limit to how much time can lapse with no milk. MOST farms stagger breeding so that milk is available all year. Contracts are not transferrable by co-owner but, can be cancelled in writing. These are generalizations of those I have read. As an "owner" you can use the milk raw without legal issues, you are not buying it


I'm very much in favor of any farmer being able to drink milk from his/her own stock or use any product of his own in any way they wish. Heck,if one of them wants to harvest and ingest SRM from cattle,that's on them as well.

But questions abound..
Exactly, what is it you are purchasing when you purchase a share? (be specific please) 
Do you have an example of one of these contracts?
What constitutes 1 "share"?
If someone gets sick from the raw milk or dies from it, who is financially liable?
How does one know for sure, that it is 'their' share they received and not someone else's?  (It's important regarding the liability question) 

(I take a long and wide view of things so I ask hard questions, but these are the same questions the informed general public is asking)
Does this look about right?
_Purchase and Sale of an Interest in a Herd of Cows.  Seller hereby sells to Buyer and Buyer hereby purchases from Seller ___ shares in the herd of cows described in Exhibit “A” . . .  It is agreed and understood by Buyer that Buyer’s interest in the Herd is a limited interest shared with others of co-ownership in the Herd and that the interest purchased by Buyer does not convey or vest in Buyer sole ownership of the Herd or of any particular cow in the Herd.  It is further agreed and understood that the specific cows in the Herd may change over time as cows die or as Seller adds to or deletes from the Herd in its sole and absolute discretion; however, Seller shall not be obligated to add to the Herd to replace a cow that dies, but may do so at Seller’s discretion.  Seller will notify Buyer of all such changes in the Herd.  Buyer’s interest does not include any rights to or interest in any offspring of any cow in the Herd; all rights to, interest in, and ownership of any and all offspring of cows in the Herd is reserved by Seller and shall vest and remain in Seller._


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## Mini Horses (Jan 16, 2019)

Yes, GB what you post is similar to what I have seen.   Your share is an "investment owner", so to speak.   Your return is simply what is produced in milk.

I'll have to see if I have a copy of any  I have seen & read.   I do not do this....am only reporting what I have seen and found here in my area.   Was looking up raw milk, found a site, you choose a State, they list those who have such available, etc.  Site for some free listing of your farm.

Leaving for work shortly but, will find more on computer later.

Many of these questions are certainly MINE, also.   Thus, I am not a participant.  

As to "your share"  --  it's like three people buying a bag of M&Ms.  You each own each piece, So, dump the bag and divide into 3 piles.   Contracts I've seen all seem to be based on a share equals one gallon....some will NOT post their contract on line, you see it when you get there & talk with them.  Most also seem to have a disclaimer of sorts as to " germs are everywhere, you are responsible, etc" .   So far, I have not heard of any health problems in my area from users or caregivers.      I'm only reporting generalizations of what I have seen when looking at this here, where I live.


Sure glad this isn't about eggs!  

GB you will either kill us or develop a GREAT contract.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 16, 2019)

Try these sites.....
by Pete Kennedy, expert raw milk lawyer  -- for a nominal fee, you can join their Legal Defense Fund

FarmToConsumer.org

RealMilk.com


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## greybeard (Jan 16, 2019)

Mini Horses said:


> Contracts I've seen all seem to be based on a share equals one gallon...



Maybe I should reword the question a little.
IF you buy a share that equals one gallon, does that mean when you arrive at the farm, you pay nothing more, as the gallon was already paid for when you signed the contract & bought the share?
IOW, when you sign on, and send the $$ are you actually pre-paying for the gallon or, are you simply buying the 'right' to buy (or otherwise receive "your own" milk?

Liability...this case is one that is most often brought up when the herd-share thing is brought up.
https://marlerclark.com/news_events/dee-creek-farm-e-coli-outbreak-washington-oregon

And who paid for the hospital bill of those affected in last year's Tennessee e coli outbreak?
https://www.cookinglight.com/news/raw-milk-ecoli-outbreak-children-tennessee
https://www.barfblog.com/2018/06/ra...ickened-by-e-coli-linked-to-raw-milk-in-tenn/
(I suspect the farmer will say "Oh, well, that was not our milk...they were drinking their own milk.")
_
According to Kristi L Nelson of Knox News, Jordan and Stephanie Schiding wanted to give their children every health advantage.

That’s the reason the Schidings, two months ago, signed up for a local cow-share program after they read about the health benefits of unpasteurized milk.

Instead, 18-month-old Genevieve and 3-year-old Anthony contracted an illness caused by E. coli bacteria and ended up with kidney failure in the pediatric intensive care unit at East Tennessee Children’s Hospital — two of 12 local children hospitalized with E. coli since the end of May.

Knox County Health Department staff told the Schidings the E. coli infection was likely linked to the consumption of raw milk from French Broad Farm. On Thursday, the health department lifted its directive that requested French Broad Farm temporarily cease operations. But health department Director Dr. Martha Buchanan reiterated that consuming raw milk is always risky and health officials recommend the public consume only pasteurized milk and dairy products.

Jordan Schiding said he and his wife knew there was “potential” for food poisoning from unpasteurized milk, which both adults drank with seemingly no serious effects, but “we were definitely not aware that anything like this was remotely possible.”

The Schiding children seem to have turned a corner, he said, with Anthony discharged Friday afternoon and Genevieve still hospitalized but out of intensive care.

But what started as a supposed stomach bug May 31 turned into a terrifying experience that traumatized both the children and their parents, who had to watch them suffer.

Schiding said the family brought Genevieve to the emergency room at Children’s Hospital May 31 after she became seriously dehydrated with diarrhea and vomiting. As she was being admitted, Anthony also began vomiting.

The hospital rehydrated the children and discharged them a few hours later. Schiding believes they were among the first children related to the current cluster of E. coli cases to come to Children’s Hospital.

Two days later, after both children continued to get sicker, the Schidings brought them back to the hospital. This time, hospital staff took a stool sample from Genevieve, which tested positive for E. coli, and then from Anthony, who also tested positive. Both children were admitted, and Knox County Health Department contacted the couple the next day, he said.

The Schidings knew little about E. coli; certain strains produce a toxin, Shiga, that can cause a chain of reactions in the body — hemolytic uremic syndrome — resulting in clots in the small blood vessels in the kidneys that cause kidney failure. The very young, the very old and people whose immune systems are already compromised are more susceptible to HUS.

Four children admitted to Children’s so far have had HUS, including Genevieve and Anthony. Though Anthony wasn’t quite as sick as his sister, both had surgery to implant central lines so they could get fluids, dialysis and blood transfusions, Schiding said. Anthony had three days of dialysis, Genevieve seven.

In addition, Anthony’s central lines became infected with staph, Schiding said, but the antibiotics typically prescribed to treat staph are too hard on the kidneys to give a child with HUS, so doctors had to use a less common medication, which has seemed to work.

“Obviously, we were freaked out a little bit,” Schiding said. “It seemed like he had started turning the corner” until he spiked a fever of 104.9 and tested positive for staph.

Schiding said his family no longer will consume raw milk.
Altogether, 10 children got sick from 'drinking milk from their own father's partial cow""
things that make you go 'Hmmmmmm'.._


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## Mini Horses (Jan 16, 2019)

The buy-in fee is to be a part of ownership, for shares wanted.  The monthly fees to "board & milk" the animal is based on # of shares you wish to receive of the product (milk) produced...ie.  30 per share, per month, gets 1 gal per week.  Want 2 gal? pay 2 shares...

In VA we cannot openly sell just raw milk.   BUT herd share agreements are legal.  Herd share members can get raw milk.  I have not read all of the requirements to be a "sanctioned" herd share farm  (certainly MANY are doing and not being sanctioned).  I would THINK some testing requirements would be in place -- .  Every State has their own laws governing raw milk, use & sales.   Following gives more details per State...& states overall for general info.


https://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005192


Because there is a lot of "nitty-gritty" regarding what, when, where, how a dairy product is able to be sold and used, you have to find the exact regs for the appropriate state.

Here's an actual excerpt from the VA code regs which was added in recent years, because taken literally as written you could not even drink raw milk on your farm for your family.  Additionally, a few years back our codes only stated "cows" that was changed to be any milking animal/mammal, excluding humans.

“No regulation shall prohibit or restrict a person, his immediate family, or his guests from consuming products or commodities grown or processed on his property provided that the products or commodities are not offered for sale to the public.”

In addition, the state Secretary of Agriculture and Consumer Services has acknowledged in writing that farmers can give raw milk and products made from raw milk free to the public


Notice the last paragraph??   There are farms who give free milk and suggest a donation be made to buy them "treats & hay".      Yep...while there are risks, if you know the farmer and trust the farm you are often feeling ok with it.    It is ALWAYS a personal choice.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 16, 2019)

Geesh --- GB, you have BEEF cows.  Do you even drink milk?


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## babsbag (Jan 16, 2019)

Herd shares are not legal in CA but we can sell raw milk from a licensed dairy if you are licensed for raw. I am not and don't want to be. The liability is too high, both financially and mentally (for me). There is a way to test every batch of milk for ecoli on the farm but it is just too much work for me. I do believe that I would have more customers if I sold raw.


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## greybeard (Jan 16, 2019)

Mini Horses said:


> Geesh --- GB, you have BEEF cows.  Do you even drink milk?


About a gallon of pasteurized store milk every 2 days. My nearest neighbor has Jerseys tho and I sometimes get raw milk from him..gratis & mostly to cook with..he milks more some days than he can use and ends up feeding the excess to his dogs or to a hog if he has one being raised.
There is according to the local talk, a small backyard dairy in this county that is legally set up to sell raw milk..state inspected etc. I haven't looked in to it tho to confirm it.

Herd shares are legal here and I'm fine with it but...
As you can tell, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that milk may be sold and consumed off premises with no allowances or recourse if the milk causes someone to become ill or die. The _"they drank their own milk from their own shared cow"_ 'thing' does not cut it when it comes to children's health and lives.



> It is ALWAYS a personal choice.


I agree.
If a person chooses to risk making themselves ill or their children, then that is their choice 100%. A great % of the 300 million population/US public tho, probably does not feel that way.

I would much prefer legislatures just say it's legal to sell raw milk to off premises customers and junk this vodoo mask of 'cow shares' crap, but include pretty stiff fines for those that sell tainted milk. 5 figure fine$ per episode would be significant enough to help ensure the milk supply is safe.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 16, 2019)

I agree with you and absolutely understand.   I don't sell my milk.  I have given some away on occasion but only to people I truly know.  Because I AM consuming it, I do pay attention to the sanitation and handling.  I do not milk into an open pail.  I sterilize jars, hoses, hands, teats, wear gloves, etc. Ice immediately & all that.  I don't even mix one doe's milk with another.   Yep, germs happen. 

When I make cheeses, those are sometimes shared with friends. Mostly it is used by myself and or fed to animals here.

If herd shares used, it should be tested regularly.  But the truth is the expense and aggravation is beyond what most with a couple animals care to go thru.  And many of those looking for the raw milk do so because often they were raised with it   &/or want to escape the chems in today's processing. I've drank a fair share of raw cow and goat milk in my lifetime.   Heck, you take a risk buying a head of lettuce.

THEN -- there's @babsbag who went the whole route!~!!   And a true journey it was.  Loved reading it, not doing it.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 16, 2019)

Are you guys ready for my essay? 

Still typing it up!


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## greybeard (Jan 16, 2019)

you type like I do?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 16, 2019)

greybeard said:


> you type like I do?
> View attachment 57197



  Yes ! I do!   What is worse than just the one finger punch is my keyboard is old and some letters stick and I can never find my reading glasses so can't see either. If I try to do voice on a goat forum ummmm that doesn't work well.


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2019)

Mini Horses said:


> THEN -- there's @babsbag who went the whole route!~!!   And a true journey it was.  Loved reading it, not doing it.



Then you are in luck as you get to follow my adventures on doing part of it again....we are building a bigger processing trailer. Won't be done this season but darn well better be ready for 2020.


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## Baymule (Jan 17, 2019)

greybeard said:


> There is according to the local talk, a small backyard dairy in this county that is legally set up to sell raw milk..state inspected etc. I haven't looked in to it tho to confirm it.



I have been to that dairy and bought milk there. People came from Houston to buy that milk. They have a real nice place.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 17, 2019)

In my capacity as an officer of the North Carolina Dairy Goat Breeders Association I have been invited to a meeting of the "Barnyard Group" in a couple of weeks.

It is with Steve Troxler who is the Secretary of Agriculture here in N.C,.
The purpose is to discuss legislative priorities for the 2019 session.

Milk laws are always a topic.

I don't have a whole lot of energy around the subject, but if there is anything you would like discussed at the meeting let me know.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 17, 2019)

babsbag said:


> Then you are in luck as you get to follow my adventures on doing part of it again....we are building a bigger processing trailer. Won't be done this season but darn well better be ready for 2020.



Great!!   Love to watch others


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## Mini Horses (Jan 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> Are you guys ready for my essay?
> 
> Still typing it up!




YES -- I am ready.   Waiting.....      I'll get a snack


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## Baymule (Jan 17, 2019)

This must be one LOOOOOOOOONG essay!


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## babsbag (Jan 17, 2019)




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## Southern by choice (Jan 17, 2019)

Baymule said:


> This must be one LOOOOOOOOONG essay!


look- my coffee maker broke- already a stressful day!  Then I had paperwork ( I typed that in a way that says whiney snotty payyyyyyyyyperrrrweeerkkkk) to do.
Then allllllllllllllllll day inquireies about one thing or another.  I have 2 projects I am working on....  

gettin' there


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## Baymule (Jan 18, 2019)

I hate paperwork. I sent my husband to town this morning so I could stay home and get stuff together for taxes.


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## greybeard (Jan 18, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> look- my coffee maker broke- already a stressful day!


I know the feeling. I had to fast yesterday until 2pm for a CT/w iodine contrast and missed my coffee terrible. (made up for it at Denny's on the way home)


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## Southern by choice (Jan 18, 2019)




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