# Tail docking/ear cropping



## Latestarter (Nov 27, 2016)

It's rather amazing how much damage one or two bad apples can do to the bunch. Justsayin...


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 27, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> It's rather amazing how much damage one or two bad apples can do to the bunch. Justsayin...



Latestarter,

The last thing I want to do is give LGD's a bad rap.  I believe 99.9% of LGD's are really nice and do a great job.

Unfortunate for me, my first introduction to LGD's was a negative one that was from a person that had the bad experience with one.

I am hoping to renew my mind [paradigm shift] by reading about many positive experiences with LGD's and one day, actually owning a LGD.

Please forgive me if I have been too negative regarding LGD's.  Let's not permit one negative experience to sour all the good in the adventure of owning a good LGD!

Please post some good stories about LGD's or perhaps we can make new a thread titled,  "Positive experiences with LGD's!"

For every negative experience with LGD's I am certain their must be literally thousands of positive experiences with them!

Help us out here if you can!

I will begin by sharing two true stories of a dog that saved my life twice...

It was back in the 1970's, and I lived in a remote part of the Santa Cruz Mountains in a genuine rain forest of giant redwood trees.  I was hiking just above the forest when suddenly, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a snake swiftly coil and strike at me.  At that exact moment, my dog just happened to run quickly between me and that rattle snake.  The rattle snake attempted to attach itself to my dog's side, but the fur was way too thick.  So he did not get bitten and he most certainly saved me from the four fangs of the rattler.  Due to the remoteness of my location at the time, I think I would have been in serious trouble because I would have had to hike quite a ways before phoning for emergency personnel.

Second incident occurred in the 1970's one night just past midnight.  Some wacko had hiked through the woods and was hiding in the bushes near my cabin.  To this day I am not sure who it was.  But when I went to investigate with my dog, he flushed the intruder out, and then chased the intruder through the forest for quite some time.  Early the next morning,  I tracked the person's prints for quite some distance through the woods and realized my dog had flushed out someone who had hidden in the bushes observing me in the middle of the night...and this was when Santa Cruz was the murder capital of the world...

So I like a good dog.  I had many, many years of fun with that dog.  Some people thought my dog was part German Shepherd and part coyote.  To this day, I am not sure what he was, but I do know he was incredibly protective and incredibly loyal.


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2016)

@Southern by choice can share many many stories about her LGDs.  Mine protect me when I am outside. I have good fences and DH didn't want a dog that barks all night (my current ones do not bark all night) but I talked him into a pair of dogs. Now that I have them my life has changed as far as being comfortable on the property at night. If they aren't on alert then I know that I am safe.  I will never be without them again. My male has also saved a kid from drowning in a water trough, has cleaned many a kid when I haven't been here, and just generally takes care of the newborns. He stands guard over them until I relieve him of his duties. And they like people.   

They do bark when they need to, my electric fence can fail and I don't panic anymore. They follow the herd out to browse, and just make me smile. I have few and far neighbors right now and the few times they have gotten out the dogs come back in a few minutes, they don't go far. It is best to let your neighbors know that you have dogs and that they are livestock friendly just in case.  Many neighbors actually like the LGDs as they will keep the neighborhood clear or predators.


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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

Please understand my comment was in no way intended to be harsh toward you, your experience to date, or your "fears"/concerns. I was merely pointing out that in today's litigious society and the news providers need for blood & guts and sensationalism, you only hear one side of virtually any/every story... the gory, bloody, bad side that drives up viewer numbers and sales. You don't hear about the flip side, the good, because that's not as interesting. You can read many stories already posted on the LGD threads, both good and bad. Nothing as devastating as what happened to your neighbor, and I am sorry that he had to endure that. 

I have extremely limited LGD experience and started out with an LGD from a very knowledgeable/experienced/thorough/conscientious/BYH member/breeder. I have years of experience with dogs in general. LGD breeds are "different" than a normal "pet" dog. They are more intelligent, more independent, generally very intuitive, & much more protective of what they "own" and that which is "owned" by you; their owner/partner. My Mel is very friendly to virtually anyone that comes to my place. You can verify that with @Devonviolet or @Baymule And I have met both of their LGDs and the only damage was being drooled on, a couple of dew claw scratches on my inner forearms from supporting them while they tried to kiss my face, and dog hair on my clothes    The ones I've had the pleasure of meeting (introduced by the owners - not walking up to them on my own) have been pretty much awesome animals   Mine is a big loveable lug who needs his ear scratches and attention.

The exception is if I'm wary or "stand-off-ish" toward the person. And if a person ever shows up that Mel doesn't like, I can assure you that I'll trust his judgement. The whole purpose of the LGD is to be "scary" and "threatening" to scare off potential adversaries/predators. They shouldn't attack except as a last resort. And if a person brings that on themselves, they'd best be ready because if Mel is attacking them, it would be for a reason, & I will be too. When Mel goes off site with me for socialization, he's always been the perfect gentleman dog with everyone who has approached him. Never a single growl. I've met LGD's in the mountain meadows of the high rockies guarding sheep and they bark and threaten as you approach the herd. But if you stop and back off, as I did, they do as well. They just don't want you near their charges.

I have no idea of the history of the neighbor or dog involved with his injuries. It really doesn't matter. I do want to point out though that in today's society, if a thief enters your residence and trips and falls down a flight of stairs, he could sue you for injuries and in many states (notably the most liberal ones like the one YOU live in) he would likely win compensatory damages. The poor thief shouldn't have to worry about being injured while stealing from you.  It has been said that if you accidentally hit someone with your car, you should back over them to make sure they're dead as it's less costly than a court liability & damages battle that could cost you millions and destroy your financial future. In some states, the govt will "allow you" to protect yourself and possessions as long as the perp is inside your residence. But heaven forbid you shoot him while he's on your front porch. So if the first round doesn't drop him, it's said make sure he's dead then drag him back inside... I shouldn't think that I need ANYONE'S permission to protect myself, my family and my belongings. I consider it a God given right. A sad state of affairs indeed. OK... getting into rant mode... time to back off 

If you get the chance to visit a ranch with working LGDs or a good breeder's ranch where there are active working dogs, I will be completely astounded if you don't fall in love with them when you interact with them. They are a breed apart and special in so many ways. I can't see myself ever being without one again, and I don't even have my livestock yet. justsayin 

Sounds like your dog friend in your youth was indeed a lifesaver for you.


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## Bruce (Nov 28, 2016)

I don't have a lot of experience with LGDs but 2 years ago we visited a breeder of Anatolians in Oregon when there visiting my father. There were probably close to a dozen dogs out with the goats including a few pups probably 8-10 weeks old. I was expecting a bunch of wary dogs and figured they would keep their distance. We went out in the pasture with the breeder and only one dog kept her distance with that wary look I was expecting from all of them. The rest NEEDED to be scratched. Once they each had their turn they wandered off back to their jobs. The pups stuck around of course. Turns out the reason the one female was standoffish was because some kids had visited the prior week (nephews I think she said) and they had been chasing after the dog. 

And we met a GP at the fair, he was in a pen with some sheep. He is an outside dog whose job is to guard sheep when at home. He was tired having been petted by hundreds of strangers pretty much the whole day.

The people who gave us the 2 alpacas have a herding dog and a GP but NEITHER has been trained AT ALL as a working dog (sorta sad given they had 7 alpacas and 3 goats). Bark bark bark and lots of running around any time people on the road walk by the house. Same thing when we went to the house even when the people were home. We went to water and treat the 2 remaining alpacas (the ones we were getting) and the goats daily for 2 weeks in early September while the people were on vacation. The lady (Kelly, in her 40's) said the GP plays kind of rough with her husband and her because they wrestled with him when it was a pup (now maybe 15 months old??). But he is a LAMB near Kelly's mother who is a bit unsteady on her feet. Her 2 dogs are Toy Yorkies. Aslan (the GP) KNOWS how to behave with various members of the family and no one had to teach him to be VERY gentle around Kelly's mother.


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## Bruce (Dec 1, 2016)

$10-$20/day starts to get significant pretty fast!

I went back through this thread focusing on the LGD attack on your neighbor. What I can't find is any indication that the dog was a working Livestock Guardian Dog or was a dog that is one of the breeds commonly used to guard livestock. Big difference.

Think of property guard dogs. Which come to mind? Perhaps a Doberman Pinscher with docked tail and pointy cropped ears that stand up? I worked for a vet when I was in college as a pre-vet major (before I figured out I didn't really want to spend my life dealing with flea allergies, spays and neuters, etc). I worked weekends, first task in the morning was to put the dogs out in the runs and clean the cages. Which puppies cowered in the back of their cage while all the others were up front looking for attention? The long tailed floppy eared Dobies. 

Point being dogs are trained to their tasks. There are plenty of cut/docked Dobies that are fearsome to look at (partly because we have been conditioned to think all Dobies are aggressive) but friendly as can be. And there are those that are trained to be aggressive guard dogs. OR they are untrained and uncontrolled. I'm wondering if your neighbor was attacked by a LGD breed dog that was one of the 2 latter types.


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## babsbag (Dec 1, 2016)

I had a house sitter at my place over Thanksgiving and I was a little concerned that my 11 month old puppy was not going to like her. The pup has always been a little timid of new things in her space, like a wheelbarrow or a piece of plywood. I don't have visitors often, the last one in the barn was in July so I just wasn't sure about her. Well, she loved the sitter. I introduced them and after that all was well; of course my 2 older dogs got her all muddy and had to have belly rubs. I would love to see what these dogs do with a stranger when I'm not around. Maybe my sense of safety and protection around them is over rated. 

My female, Sigueme, even lets people around her puppies. She stays right near, and gives the stink eye if they misbehave but no aggression at all. Once a man came to look at the pups and mama left, wouldn't stay in the barn with him. She went about 20' away and sat down and just watched. Fortunately he decided that an LGD wasn't for him which I was happy about. If she didn't like him he didn't deserve a puppy. He had 2 children with him so I wasn't afraid for my safety but it made me wonder about Sig's discernment. She has only done that once with multiple litters of pups.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 2, 2016)

Bruce said:


> $10-$20/day starts to get significant pretty fast!
> 
> I went back through this thread focusing on the LGD attack on your neighbor. What I can't find is any indication that the dog was a working Livestock Guardian Dog or was a dog that is one of the breeds commonly used to guard livestock. Big difference.
> 
> ...



Bruce,  you bring up very important points and sure helps a lot.

Yes, $10-$20 per day does begin to add up very fast!  We are so happy that the sheep can eat in the forest with no problems at this time.  

I suppose just about any dog can be a "good" dog if it is brought up/trained right.  I still have not been able to speak with our neighbor's son who was attacked by the dog in question.  I look forward to speaking to him and asking many more questions!  Perhaps greater clarity will help sort this out.

Thanks again for your help!



babsbag said:


> I had a house sitter at my place over Thanksgiving and I was a little concerned that my 11 month old puppy was not going to like her. The pup has always been a little timid of new things in her space, like a wheelbarrow or a piece of plywood. I don't have visitors often, the last one in the barn was in July so I just wasn't sure about her. Well, she loved the sitter. I introduced them and after that all was well; of course my 2 older dogs got her all muddy and had to have belly rubs. I would love to see what these dogs do with a stranger when I'm not around. Maybe my sense of safety and protection around them is over rated.
> 
> My female, Sigueme, even lets people around her puppies. She stays right near, and gives the stink eye if they misbehave but no aggression at all. Once a man came to look at the pups and mama left, wouldn't stay in the barn with him. She went about 20' away and sat down and just watched. Fortunately he decided that an LGD wasn't for him which I was happy about. If she didn't like him he didn't deserve a puppy. He had 2 children with him so I wasn't afraid for my safety but it made me wonder about Sig's discernment. She has only done that once with multiple litters of pups.



Babs,

Another great story and thank you for sharing!


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 5, 2016)

Bruce said:


> $10-$20/day starts to get significant pretty fast!
> 
> I went back through this thread focusing on the LGD attack on your neighbor. What I can't find is any indication that the dog was a working Livestock Guardian Dog or was a dog that is one of the breeds commonly used to guard livestock. Big difference.
> 
> ...



The dobie stereotype is why we have our dobie meet as many people as possible. He is a blue and tan so people dont realize he is a dobie and think he is some kind of odd colored weimaraner. They will be loving all up on him and then ask what breed he is and the look of shock on their face when you say doberman pinscher is pretty priceless. So..please meet our dobie!

This is Issac....doesnt he look terrifying...



 


 
His tail is docked but his ears are not and he is an intact male.
This is our other big dog, Kora she is a Dobie poodle cross.....loving on her daddy


 

This is my 12lb chihuahua mix using the dobie as her own personal couch and heater.


 

Before Issac we had Mauler who was also a black and tank dobie, and before mauler was his mother gracie. Our home would never be the same without a dobie. 

We have owned many breeds of dogs and dobies are the sweetest smartest dogs i have ever met.....when raised right. Being against LGD's because one attacked someone is no worse then being against any other breed for attacking someone....all breeds have reported bite/attack cases even tiny 4lb chihuahua's and american's #1 family dog the labrador retriever. 

It horrible when anyone is attacked by any breed of dog. DH has a good friend who had half of her face taken off by a Golden Retriever during an attack but that doesnt mean i would never own a golden retriever.

I'll get off my box now. Definitely think you should look into a LGD for your needs as it could help you out a lot!


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## NH homesteader (Dec 5, 2016)

Love  him! He's beautiful! Love Dobies with ears. 

I won't join the soapbox.  But I do think it's important to to educate yourself before getting a LGD. If you're afraid of the dog  that won't help anything.  I can't wait until I can have a LGD,  but I'm also doing research and saving up to get the right one.  

Most (not all)  dog aggression issues are because of poor training,  lack of knowledge  or the dog being placed in a bad situation.  I know some dogs are just prone to aggression,  I'm not saying it's never the dog's "fault".  Do your research and decide if a LGD is right for you. Until then,  what type of fencing are you using? Add some really hot electric fence if you're not using it already. 

Try to find some farmers near you that have LGD's doing their job right. Learn from them.  Then look for your own!


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## Bruce (Dec 5, 2016)

I'm quaking in my boots seeing Issac @misfitmorgan !!

Not having short cropped ears definitely takes away some of the more fearsome look.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 5, 2016)

Morgan,

Beautiful dogs!  Thanks for sharing the photos!  I especially like the looks of that DP!

BTW, you may have misunderstood me...I am not against LGD's.  I simply shared my concerns and began to ask questions about LGD's after seeing over 60 stitches in my neighbor's son's head and hearing about the $300,000 settlement.

I am not a fearful person, but I am a cautious person when it comes to new adventures, and having a LGD is a new adventure for me.

I am hoping to get it right the first time rather than have to learn the hard way...


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## babsbag (Dec 5, 2016)

My first LGD spoiled me. If my last pup had been my first I might never have owned one. She is turning out to be a great dog, but boy was she trying. That girl was born with her mouth open and chews/chewed everything in sight. Her idea of play is to use her mouth. At 11 months she is oh so much better about using her mouth on me but she still uses it on my poor older dog to try and get her to play. I wish I could just duct tape her mouth shut. At least she doesn't bark needlessly, for that I am grateful.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

babsbag said:


> My first LGD spoiled me. If my last pup had been my first I might never have owned one. She is turning out to be a great dog, but boy was she trying. That girl was born with her mouth open and chews/chewed everything in sight. Her idea of play is to use her mouth. At 11 months she is oh so much better about using her mouth on me but she still uses it on my poor older dog to try and get her to play. I wish I could just duct tape her mouth shut. At least she doesn't bark needlessly, for that I am grateful.



That is what Issac was doing that is why we got Kora. They are best buds and play pretty much non-stop and chew on each other lol.



soarwitheagles said:


> Morgan,
> 
> Beautiful dogs!  Thanks for sharing the photos!  I especially like the looks of that DP!
> 
> ...



Well i hope you find a great LGD!



Bruce said:


> I'm quaking in my boots seeing Issac @misfitmorgan !!
> 
> Not having short cropped ears definitely takes away some of the more fearsome look.


Yeah we dont believe in cropping ears, if we adopted a dobie with cropped ears fine but we dont take any of ours to get cropped.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

Did you have his tail docked? We didn't crop our Alano's ears either,  much to the breeder's dismay!


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Did you have his tail docked? We didn't crop our Alano's ears either,  much to the breeder's dismay!



No we did not he came with his tail docked. Typically any breed that is going to have a tail dock is done less then 2 weeks old which is why you get a lot of dog owners who wont crop theirs dogs ears but have the tail docked.....we didnt have a say in it when he was only 2 weeks old, heck we didnt know he existed yet. Kora also came docked when we adopted her.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

Gotcha.  I hate tail docking! We reserved our dog before the whole litter had their ears done,  which is why we got to say no.  Breeder wasn't thrilled but she's pet quality and she'll never hunt so he let us.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Gotcha.  I hate tail docking! We reserved our dog before the whole litter had their ears done,  which is why we got to say no.  Breeder wasn't thrilled but she's pet quality and she'll never hunt so he let us.



I'm not a fan of it myself. We love our dobie's and i have yet to meet one with a tail, oddly it seems people who are against ear cropping are still fine with tail docking.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

That's why I asked.  Tail docking is way worse in my opinion. I'm not  against ear cropping for certain breeds.  Clara's doggie father boar hunts,  he's safer with cropped ears.  Otherwise they would make good targets


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

I'm more against cropping then docking personally. i have seen both processes done in a vets office. The tail dock was done at 3 days old and was about a 60 seconds procedure with no stitches needed and the tails were healed in about a week. The ear cropping i saw done took around 30 minutes, including the cropping and stitching and ear cropping is not done until 6-8 weeks old. Then after the stitches are removed and the ears are healed roughly 14 days later, you have approx 6 months of posting and taping to look forward too. Some ears are faster taking only 2 month to stand properly some are slower and still require taping a year later. So in the entire scheme of docking vs cropping i think docking is far less painful/intensive to a dog. Everyone chooses what they are ok with i know many many people who would not own certain dog breeds without docking or cropping them and others who would never think of doing either. i think cropped ears on dobies look gorgeous but it just isnt something i would want to do to my dobies. I certainly dont think any less of anyone who does or doesnt like either one. After all we do dock our sheeps tails


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

Oh yeah that sounds awful.  They don't do all that with this breed. They just cut them shorter,  they're younger than 8 weeks and none of her litter mates needed painkillers.  They don't do all that taping stuff,  I've never heard of that.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2016)

First tail docking needs to be done within days after birth. When done at this time it is no more of an issue than removing extra dewclaws. Although I am not a fan of banding tails. I prefer cut and suture or surgical glue. 

We had considered having our mutt Lucy's tail getting docked. She was older and it would require anesthesia and would have been far more of an issue so we didn't. I will say however this dog (Lucy's) has broken more blood vessels in people's legs than I can keep track of, as well as she has broken her tail 3 times. She has cut it and spat blood everywhere, she has smacked herself in her face so hard she has yelped and given herself welts. Her tail is truly a whip. 

I have seriously bad veins and when she hits mine the spot will blow up as big as a golfball and I am down for days. Obviously I am very careful around her tail. The list could go on but this dogs tail should have been done as a pup! She is half boxer and half lab. It boils down to many "breeders" don't have a clue what they are doing, don't want to spend a dime on a litter and then , and then claim they don't do those things because it is cruel. There are a host of other reasons that this has now become "cruel" in the people's mind. I have watched the whole dog world evolve into something quite disturbing really. 

There are certain breeds I think are best to not have tails and some breeds best suited to having their ears cropped. However I am also a fan of dogs having a job and purpose as they were originally domesticated for. 

The weird thing is all the boo- hooing and whining about how cruel ears/tail being done are but have no problem doing a spay or neuter.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like  and avoid the drama.  The vet didn't allow them to tell anyone who did their ears for fear of backlash.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> First tail docking needs to be done within days after birth. When done at this time it is no more of an issue than removing extra dewclaws. Although I am not a fan of banding tails. I prefer cut and suture or surgical glue.
> 
> We had considered having our mutt Lucy's tail getting docked. She was older and it would require anesthesia and would have been far more of an issue so we didn't. I will say however this dog (Lucy's) has broken more blood vessels in people's legs than I can keep track of, as well as she has broken her tail 3 times. She has cut it and spat blood everywhere, she has smacked herself in her face so hard she has yelped and given herself welts. Her tail is truly a whip.
> 
> ...



Some vets are stupid and just want money. I have seen more then one vet's office offer tail docking without anesthesia up to 2 weeks old. Of course i have also seen them offer ear cropping anytime before 6 months old. I place these vets in the same category as the vets who offer to burn horns on goats that are 4 months old.....appalling! 



NH homesteader said:


> Oh yeah that sounds awful.  They don't do all that with this breed. They just cut them shorter,  they're younger than 8 weeks and none of her litter mates needed painkillers.  They don't do all that taping stuff,  I've never heard of that.



Most any breed that has medium or long crop ears that need to stand up require several months of taping and posting ears to train them to stand after the cropping is done. Short crop ears like those on some pits dont usually require posting.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 6, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> First tail docking needs to be done within days after birth. When done at this time it is no more of an issue than removing extra dewclaws. Although I am not a fan of banding tails. I prefer cut and suture or surgical glue.
> 
> We had considered having our mutt Lucy's tail getting docked. She was older and it would require anesthesia and would have been far more of an issue so we didn't. I will say however this dog (Lucy's) has broken more blood vessels in people's legs than I can keep track of, as well as she has broken her tail 3 times. She has cut it and spat blood everywhere, she has smacked herself in her face so hard she has yelped and given herself welts. Her tail is truly a whip.
> 
> ...



i missed the spay/neuter part.....according to them spay/neuter is for the health of the animal...which i dont really buy.



NH homesteader said:


> The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like  and avoid the drama.  The vet didn't allow them to tell anyone who did their ears for fear of backlash.



If we ever cropped ears or adopted a crop eared dog we wouldnt lie about it. That seems a little odd but i know how people can be i guess. DH would tell them right where to go, if they tried to give us drama over it. We have had a very very few people try to bring up the tails being docked in a negative way...DH sets them straight. Also not to many people are gonna try to start anything with a man who is 6'4"


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

Lol this area is full of the type of people that you will hear it from!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like  and avoid the drama.  The vet didn't allow them to tell anyone who did their ears for fear of backlash.



Years ago one of the vets I was close to was one of the only ones left doing the ear crops. The real reason back then had more to do with the vets NOT knowing how to do ear crops & tail docks for the specific breeds.  Some of these vets really missed the mark on the ears. Pretty bad seeing a Doberman with Pit ears.

Schnauzers are another that many just couldn't get right and IMO theirs need done good golly the ear infections on those dogs were horrible.... rarely did I see one have ear infections with cropped ears.

One really needs to look at the development of breeds... sadly some development also meant drop ears. Many LGD breeds have cropped ears in other countries and it makes sense. Far less trauma and issues for the dogs that actually work. 

@misfitmorgan  Agree! so much bs out there about spay/neuter and it is so sad. Of course it takes two.... when people just do things blindly without questioning, without educating themselves and just do as they're told that is when we have an entire culture completely brainwashed and I see this all the time. If you are 40 and under for the most part you never have been around intact animals, never been around a female in heat, don't know what to do, don't know how to manage your own dogs. I was around before all this spay/neuter junk and saw what was happening. I have watched this evolve into such crap I can't even go there. I get so mad and so frustrated. This didn't have anything to do with "too many" puppies... never did and still doesn't. If vets would take the 10-15 minutes or hand out a brochure on reproduction and heat cycles instead of bulling people into spaying and neutering for 10-15 minutes then and only then will we see a reduction. Before the spay/neuter programs we had far less dogs, far fewer shelters and far fewer nutjob crazy dogs. I have hundreds of pages of documentation but no time to compile it. When I tell people the truth about it they are kind of in disbelief at first, then comes the look of nahhhhhhhh, then comes the look of wheels turning, then come the questions. 
The only time I consider doing such is when it is actually medically necessary.


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## Bruce (Dec 6, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> After all we do dock our sheeps tails



Because most breeds of sheep don't have sufficient tail muscles to lift them high when they poop. Then you get a big mess back there. IIRC, Katahdin is one of the few breeds that have decent tail muscles and people don't dock them.  



NH homesteader said:


> The breeder told us if we did her ears we should just lie and tell people that's what their ears look like and avoid the drama.



Sorry, I have zero respect for that breeder whoever they are. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen ... and choose a different breed to own or sell.

I agree that there are specific dogs that are working and should be cropped/docked for their safety. Doesn't apply to a lap or foot warmer. Plenty of "drop ear" dogs get ear infections whether they are a breed that is typically cropped or not. Yes it is easier to keep them "aired out" if they are up. 

I don't understand why we would have more shelters and more dogs after the neuter craze started. Fewer dogs getting out and making puppies without the owner's consent or knowledge should result in the opposite.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 6, 2016)

He was telling us that for our sake.  He doesn't lie about it himself,  if you ask.  Considering he has some with long  ears that argument wouldn't make much sense if someone compared his dogs. The comment was more about how critical people are of the practice. There are very few Alanos without  cropped ears.


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## Latestarter (Dec 7, 2016)

I moved the applicable posts from @soarwitheagles  thread about his sheep giving birth per his request.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I moved the applicable posts from @soarwitheagles  thread about his sheep giving birth per his request.


I am confused... most of this pertains to spay/neuter that NH homesteader started... which thread are we using because now we have two threads talking about the same stuff.

Thanks for moving it.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

Never mind I see... this section is ears/tails  

Duh  ... hey it's late I am sick and need to sleep


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2016)

Because some of the posts covered both subjects I copied them to both new threads to help avoid confusion. I guess it didn't work   Sorry. This thread deals primarily with tail docking and ear cropping with the lead in posts that got that subject started.


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## norseofcourse (Dec 8, 2016)

I had a Miniature Schnauzer when I was younger, we got him from a breeder as a puppy (for Christmas!).  His tail had already been docked, but we chose not to have his ears cropped.  I always thought he looked so much cuter and still 'puppy-like' with uncropped ears.  His ears were semi-erect and the groomer we took him to kept the hair in his ears plucked to help with air circulation, and I don't remember him ever having an ear infection.

As far as sheep, I'm just glad I chose a breed that already has a short tail and doesn't get docked.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

I groomed many a Schnauzers and I always preferred the cropped ears. Yes, the hair had to be plucked regardless but with the hair and the cropped ear there were hardly any with infection. 
Norse you are pretty lucky, and probably more so than lucky, diligent in the grooming I am sure had much to do with it.

LOL I love the cropped ear  The Schnauzer is such a stoic looking dog that is so proud and astute as well as muscular and watchful and the beautiful lines of a well bred Schnauzer is really something to see... I always think when people don't do ears that they didn't "finish" the dog.  
Then again I did show and pet grooming... and I hated it when people didn't do a proper clip (for pet clip not plucking and stripping) on the breed. I guess I was kinda a picky snob! 
I would love to have a Giant Schnauzer  but their beards are just too smelly.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 8, 2016)

[QUOTE="Southern by choice, post: 460829, member: 6771

If you are 40 and under for the most part you never have been around intact animals, never been around a female in heat, don't know what to do, don't know how to manage your own dogs. I was around before all this spay/neuter junk and saw what was happening. I have watched this evolve into such crap I can't even go there. I get so mad and so frustrated. This didn't have anything to do with "too many" puppies... never did and still doesn't. If vets would take the 10-15 minutes or hand out a brochure on reproduction and heat cycles instead of bulling people into spaying and neutering for 10-15 minutes then and only then will we see a reduction. Before the spay/neuter programs we had far less dogs, far fewer shelters and far fewer nutjob crazy dogs. I have hundreds of pages of documentation but no time to compile it. When I tell people the truth about it they are kind of in disbelief at first, then comes the look of nahhhhhhhh, then comes the look of wheels turning, then come the questions.
The only time I consider doing such is when it is actually medically necessary.[/QUOTE]

I"m over 40
Heck I'm over 50
You are right many years ago most animals weren't fixed and there was not the number of unwanted dogs and cats as today
But you do realize that many years ago many people just "disposed" of unwanted litters


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## Green Acres Farm (Dec 8, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Then again I did show and pet grooming... and I hated it when people didn't do a proper clip (for pet clip not plucking and stripping) on the breed. I guess I was kinda a picky snob!


That's so cool!

What dog breeds did you show?


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 8, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> many years ago many people just "disposed" of unwanted litters


True...


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

That wasn't very common really. But people did have some sense back then and did put down newborn pups that should have been.
Now we have issues with mutant genes and other issues. Heck, so many sell "rare" this and that... what those "rare" colors are is a mutant gene that carries all kinds of issues with it and respectable real breeders knew to put them down. Now people are so suckered in and buy this line of BS and pay big money for genetic nightmares.

Sadly in the LGD world there are lots of dogs out there that were  a result of brother sister litters and people buy these dogs not knowing what they are getting. Some argue that is why one should only but papered registered animals but I have seen that too.

My family has been in canines for 5 generations... now 6. 

More and more of the better breeders are now not guaranteeing their dogs if they are spayed or neutered. It has turned back around as they tried the whole restriction thing and found so many of their pups having issues when they shouldn't. 

I am currently looking at brindles of different breeds. I have been looking at specific tendencies of dogs that have the gene that causes the brindle. Very interesting stuff. Sadly it is hard to get people to participate.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 8, 2016)

As a brindle dog owner...  I'm now quite curious! 

Sorry if this offends anyone (I don't know where everyone stands on this) but some of the things breeders have done to dogs that have been shown for many years is absolutely appalling.  Dogs that can't have natural births? Some of the physical features that have been breed in that make dogs useless as working dogs...  Sigh.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 8, 2016)

Disposing of unwanted litters was very common around here
For no other reason than they just didn't want them
I was more addressing the spay/neuter issue and that years ago most were not 
Most people should have their animals spayed or neutered


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## Bruce (Dec 8, 2016)

Yep some breeds would be extinct if not for C sections. 

Hey I know, let's breed for really broad shoulders, huge heads and a narrow pelvis!!! 

Really stupid.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> Most people should have their animals spayed or neutered


Why? 
 I don't ask that snarky or anything combative I am just curious as to why you feel that way.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 8, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Why?
> I don't ask that snarky or anything combative I am just curious as to why you feel that way.


Unless they plan to breed ( which most people shouldn't )to not have unwanted pups


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

You can have intact dogs and still not have unwanted pups.

I did want to mention I am not a fan of spay/nueter *in the way it is done in this country*. We de-sex animals here. That is what I am opposed to. Ovary sparing spays eliminate the health issues that desexing brings about and with males basically a "vasectomy" is far better than castration. Hormones are necessary for development and health. De-sexing destroys that. The exception IMO is when desexing is medically necessary.

There are far and few that do these other procedures here in the states although I think people are going to see more vets go in this direction. 

I can't say I disagree that most should "alter" their pets.


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## Baymule (Dec 8, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Now people are so suckered in and buy this line of BS and pay big money for genetic nightmares.
> 
> Sadly in the LGD world there are lots of dogs out there that were  a result of brother sister litters and people buy these dogs not knowing what they are getting. Some argue that is why one should only but papered registered animals but I have seen that too.



I have no idea of the breeding of my female GP. She supposedly had papers, but I never saw them. The lady that gave her to us did say that she bought Paris from a breeder, where there were lots of GP's, in pens. Sounded like a puppy mill to me. Paris is small for the breed, more than a little wacko and will not be bred.

I had a litter of Australian Shepherds that I docked their tails. The breeder told me how to do it, with blunt scissors. I cut their tails at the tip of the "V" on the underside of their tails. I did it when they were a few days old, there was no blood, no open wound and they healed right up.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 9, 2016)

Southern,  are those procedures more expensive or more difficult? Why do vets not do them? I have heard about the spay alternative but haven't looked into it (well I haven't needed to since then)


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## Bruce (Dec 9, 2016)

I have to believe that if they are it is only due to not many vets doing it. Giving a dog a vasectomy can't be any harder than doing it to a human. And tubal ligation on a dog seems like it would be less invasive. Plus since people wouldn't get too concerned about the size of the scar, it should be even easier than on a human.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 9, 2016)

I just read an article by a vet who said they are afraid of being sued because if they don't remove all of the females organs the dog could be at risk of getting cancer and it could be blamed on them years down the road.


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## lalabugs (Dec 9, 2016)

A new shot is available that will make a male dog infertile. No need for neutering anymore. Though the vets in my area do not offer this yet. 

http://www.vetstreet.com/dr-marty-becker/new-nonsurgical-neutering-option-makes-sterilization-simple

"Zeuterin is a nonsurgical form of neutering, the only such procedure approved for dogs 3 to 10 months of age by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Neutering by needle works by injecting a solution of zinc gluconate into each testicle, rendering it incapable of producing sperm. The procedure is very close to pain-free (most pets probably feel nothing more than the needle stick) and usually does not require anesthesia. Zinc is a natural spermicide, and the injection allows the product to render the dog infertile. Even as the sperm are dying, the dog’s body is responding by blocking the tubes that carry sperm with scar tissue, while absorbing and metabolizing the solution. The solution will soon be gone, but the effect is permanent."


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## NH homesteader (Dec 9, 2016)

Well that is interesting...


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## Bruce (Dec 9, 2016)

But ONLY for dogs 3 to 10 MONTHS old?


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## ShadowsFIAL (Dec 26, 2016)

I am going to jump in on this one!

I work at a vet clinic currently both as a veterinary assistant and a groomer, and have been here for 4 years now. I will tell you this, I have seen more dogs with ear infections from ears not cropped than from ones that were.

I have watched both ear cropping and tail docking and have helped with both:

Puppies do feel the tail docking, just like they do the dewclaws, but it is just like having a babies circumcision done. They don't remember it later from that age. 

The ear cropping I am fine with, IF the owner gets pain medication for their dog. I have had cartilage piercings done, and have friends who have, and just from that experience I would not want my dog in constant pain through the healing process. Sign my dog up for the good drugs please. As for owners who don't want to get meds for their dog, that pisses me off. 

Spay & Neuter. This is a fence for me. I believe that you need to get your dog fixed by 6 years of age. Unless your vet says your dog is in good health to continue breeding for a few more years. It can save you in the long run. I have seen many male dogs with prostate issues & testicular cancer. I have also seen many female dogs with mammary tumors, ovary tumors, as well as pyometra, which is a serious infection in the uterus, and it happens more commonly when they get older.
I had my male german shepherd castrated this year due to his prostate becoming questionable, and rather than having to do a large and expensive surgery or having to put him down if it got worse I did preventative neutering. Which now his prostate if fine. I always has him checked at least yearly to make sure everything was fine.

I also however got my young male shepherd neutered since I did not want to breed him due to his mental state. He is questionable around new people and is a fear biter, and he randomly got this way at 3 months of age. This was not a trait I wished to pass on , so I had him castrated at a year old to save me the trouble. I believe you should really wait till your dog is at least a year old to get this done, and still even then I agree that they do not fill out to their full mass unless you wait till after two years of age. Wonderful herding dog though. No training at all. 

I personally would want to crop my LGD's ears, just as if I were to get a great dane or a rottie, I like the look, and rottie tails are _insane. _But this is also why I like dogs with naturally raised ears haha.

Just my two cents.


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## Bruce (Dec 26, 2016)

I don't think I'll get my GPs ears cropped!! BTW, they are clean as a whistle inside. Of course I've only had him 2 weeks so I don't have many years of experience with his ears.


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## NH homesteader (Dec 26, 2016)

@Bruce he's a bit past  the ear cropping age at this point! 

Most men I know appreciate Rottie tails being cropped. Our friend has a Boxweiler (boxer/rottie and no he didn't pay for a designer breed,  he just calls him that)  who has a very ahem...  Damaging tail.


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## Bruce (Dec 26, 2016)

Yep. And he would look stupid.

You can always hitch bungees from each side of the collar to the end of their tails. Cuts the torque on the wag pretty much to zero


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