# old goat down



## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

Hello all. I have a 10 year old goat, Bella. I know she's pretty old but she's still my pretty girl. About a month ago we noticed she wasn't getting around as easy,  getting very skinny, and kept falling over. Brought a vet in and she had worms. I can't remember what they were called. Coccili something like that.  Started with a C. Well she got a little better. Now she is back down. It started her falling over, to now she's not even walking, standing nothing. She is still eating and drinking and going to the bath room , all that. Brought the vet in again, gave her an IV and shots trying to get her energy back up. Tested her for worms again and that one kinda worm was back ( we are doubting it never went away ) well the wormer and meds and shots aren't seeming to help at this point. She can't get up. We try to lift her up to make her walk and she goes right back to the ground. She had been laying back where we woild need to roll her back on her belly so she didn't bloat ( my husband is the farm guy) now she's not doing that but instead when she tucks her head beside her (like they do to sleep) she can't move it back up. We have to go in and lift it for her. I just read someone's post about the same thing happening to her 3 year old goat and she had to be put down bc she lost all movement in her neck. Which is what is happening to my Bella girl. does anyone have any thoughts to help my girl


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 2, 2016)

Did the vet listen to her heart? 

Do you know what shots were given? 

What did you use to treat the Cocci? Cocci are the "worms" you are talking about. They are different than works but are often put into the same category. Do you know how many were on the slide? Few, many? 

What do her inner eyelids look like? 

Hard to see our old friends like this


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## alsea1 (Jul 2, 2016)

She sounds like she is not in good enough shape to recover.  I know its a hard thought but it may be time to put her down.


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

The  vet did say she had a heart mummur.  She may of had this. We don't know. My husband said the vet didn't tell us how bad she had them. Little or alot. Her eye lids were white, that was before her treatment The vet gave us Corid to give her. And some shots (he's not sure what they were).  They gave her an IV and vitamin shots when they were here to try and get her energy back up. But it didn't help. She's eating great and drinking. Still loves her grain and hay. We started giving her molasses too. Which she gobbles that right down. Just she can't walk or stand. And now this thing w her neck. I was still feeling hopeful until I read that women's post about it happening to her 3 year old. Now am I not only concerned w bella, but we have another one too. Emma. She's much younger ( 5 ) and I'm worried she's going to have the same thing happen to her. 


Goat Whisperer said:


> Did the vet listen to her heart?
> 
> Do you know what shots were given?
> 
> ...


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

At this point I don't think she's going too. we are gonna call the vet on Tuesday. Bring her back in. I'm losing more hope as the days go by. Do these types of worms kill?  Why wasn't the shots and wormer given allow her to bounce back ? I'm stressed about the day that I know what's going to have to be done , but I'm concerned about my other one too. Which we have them separated now so Bella is able to relax and not have to worry about the other eating her hay or knocking her over etc.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 2, 2016)

Typing a post now. In short YES cocci is a HUGE killer. Typically it's seen in kids, but if it's bad enough adults will get it too.

Will work on another post in a minute.

Post the link of the other goat you are talking about


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

I'm sorry goat whisper. I'm new to this. I came on looking for answers and I'm sorry I found them even tho in my mind I knew, I was just trying to be hopeful.  What link would you like me to post? I didn't have any thing else posted besides for this one about my Bella girl. We just have a 5 year old one as well and I don't want her to get this. How do I do this? The vet said even cleaning everything outta their pen,  waste, dirt ,cobwebs whatever the case may be they can still live in there. I want them to go away!! She did mention that normally only younger ones get them, rare cases older ones will ( which is my case) maybe she had them too long and she's not young or strong enough to fight them off.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 2, 2016)

If her eyelids were white, she was almost dead. I'm shocked that she is still alive with her being this old and having a load that high. It will take a few treatments to fully get rid of the cocci, especially if you are using corid. 

The issue with the neck is very concerning. Can you tell if it is because she is weak, injured it, or neurological? I would be starting her on thiamine injections to ward off any possible polio. Corid can cause a thiamine deficiency, and that can cause polio. 

What is her temp? 

There is still a chance that you can save her. May not be a big chance, but don't give up just yet. 

Finding something else to treat the cocci like di-methox would be better than the corid.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 2, 2016)

jen miller said:


> I'm sorry goat whisper. I'm new to this. I came on looking for answers and I'm sorry I found them even tho in my mind I knew, I was just trying to be hopeful.  What link would you like me to post? I didn't have any thing else posted besides for this one about my Bella girl. We just have a 5 year old one as well and I don't want her to get this. How do I do this? The vet said even cleaning everything outta their pen,  waste, dirt ,cobwebs whatever the case may be they can still live in there. I want them to go away!! She did mention that normally only younger ones get them, rare cases older ones will ( which is my case) maybe she had them too long and she's not young or strong enough to fight them off.


Cocci is in the environment just like most worms/ parasites. Keeping them at a reasonable number is key. Running fecals on a regular schedule to monitor parasite counts is very important. You can learn to do this yourself if you get the right scope and slides.

Keeping pens clean, poop scooped, and feeding them off the ground will help cut down on parasites.

Post the link to the thread that you mention, the one that the owner had to put the doe down due to the neck issue.


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

I had no idea about the eye lids!! I just ran out to my husband and told him that white eye lids weren't good and he said he knew. But that was before her treatment.  He just gave her the last dose tonight and in 3 weeks she gets another shot. I'm sure he doesn't tell me stuff like that bc of my reaction to it. Which he is correct. They aren't "farm animals " they are my pets. He told me to save what you wrote so he can remember the med. I'm guessing to tell the vet. The neck thing we think is bc she is weak. No injury. She started not being able to loft it from her side about 2 days ago. We just go in and very slowly help her lift it up. Sometimes she may let out a noise. I dunno if it's bc she's stiff and sore from it being in that position that long. We check on her about every hour or so during the day and every few through out the night. Once her head is up she's fine. She can move it around , look around , bend it to drink.  We put a little pile of hay in front of her and she will root through the hay, find what she wants and eat away.  But I will definitely have him tell the vet about that med. I most likely won't be up there. I'm scared to hear what she may have to say.


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

It was a question that was asked on here back in 2013. I'm not sure how to bring that up. I'm sorry. It was under adult goat down. I actually found it when I Googled "my goat can't walk". It was the 2nd link from the top. That's How I Came Across this site.


QUOTE="Goat Whisperer, post: 435103, member: 9889"]Cocci is in the environment just like most worms/ parasites. Keeping them at a reasonable number is key. Running fecals on a regular schedule to monitor parasite counts is very important. You can learn to do this yourself if you get the right scope and slides.

Keeping pens clean, poop scooped, and feeding them off the ground will help cut down on parasites.

Post the link to the thread that you mention, the one that the owner had to put the doe down due to the neck issue.[/QUOTE]


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 2, 2016)

If she doesn't have a temp, keep offering the molasses water. Offer her good hay and cut some tree limbs for her. If you have pine that would be great. You may want to give her probiotics- whenever I have a goat that isn't feeling well they usually get probiotics.

Forgot to ask, how bad is the murmur? What did the vet say about it? When you mentioned the doe falling over I thought she had a heart issue. Summer heat can be brutal to a goat with heart issues.

Ask the vet about starting her on an iron supplement. If you aren't worried about polio, I would just inject a few MLs of b complex. This will help soothe her digestive system and help build her immunity up.

What state are you located in?


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

I'm not sure if she said how bad it was. She said it concerned her bc she didn't know if she was doing this bc she was going into heart failure or if she had the worms back. But then after the test, we found out she did , which we don't think we ever got fully rid of them the first time around. My husband said he thinks it's the worms causing this bc she was fine and then one day she had fallen. So we took everything out of her pen that she can climb or stand on to help decrease her changes or falling again. Thinking maybe it was just old age and that happens. But it kept happening that day. Then we figured maybe she wasn't falling. Just laying down bc she was too weak and tired to stand. And that's when we had the vet come back and we found out the worms where still there.  Not sure if it's the heart mummur,  I think it's more of those worms , but I'm sure being older and now the heart thing isn't helping


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## jen miller (Jul 2, 2016)

Your information is great. I can't thank you enough. Really.  Good or bad outcome, Thank you for taking the time to help me and explain things to me. I am screen shotting all of your information to show my husband tomorrow and that way we (he) is sure to tell the vet.  I am in PA


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 2, 2016)

You are very welcome  I can tell you really love your goats, and I just love that! 

Please keep us updated, I'm really hoping that she can pull thru this 

When you can, try to figure out what shots were given. It is important to know what you are putting into your goat and what its purpose is. 

Whenever you have a fecal run, be sure to get the count. You want to see a 95% reduction after the appropriate med is given. 

I'll check back in the morning, if I think of anything else I'll be sure to post. 

Keep up the good work, you are a great "goat mom"


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## jen miller (Jul 3, 2016)

No change this AM.  still can't lift her head by herself. But once it's up , she's good to go. I looked at her eye lids. And they are pink /red. Her eye itself is white, but eyelids are pink. We are definitely calling the vet Tuesday and letting her know about those meds. I will definitely keep you posted with her and how she is coming along. I can't thank you enough for your advise and help. The world needs to be filled with more ppl like you. Willing to take the time for an animal that's not even yours


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## Hens and Roos (Jul 3, 2016)

Keeping our fingers crossed for Bella  and you.


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## Latestarter (Jul 3, 2016)

Best wishes for a successful conclusion. Nobody likes to lose a cherished part of their life. Even though we all know that that time will come. When it does, all we can hope is that it's quick and painless with little suffering.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 5, 2016)

@jen miller 

Any update?


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## jen miller (Jul 5, 2016)

Not as of yet. We called the vet this am, but of course with the holiday they were booked. So they said first thing tomorrow morning. Her head has been up each time we go up. Expect for once on Sunday. Where she needed help with it again. So I don't know if she just hasn't been putting her head down or if she's lifting it up herself. She will move her legs and act like she's trying to get " comfy " I guess. Or change her position.   But when we lift her up to try to see if she will stand , she has no desire too. She just wants to lay right back down. But as far as her head and neck that has been up.  Just not sure if she's putting it down. You would think so. That's a long time for her to not rest, but we can't ever seem to catch her in the act of lifting it up herself. We have the other goat in the outside part of the pen and she gives it away every time we go up. She does move it all around and looks all around. Today she leaned her head over to my chest and I kinda held it for her and scratched her cheeks.  So we got a little cuddle time in  So here's hoping the vet calla back first thing tomorrow. Thank you for checking in. I have not forgot about you.


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## TAH (Jul 5, 2016)

Your such a good goat mama.


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## jen miller (Jul 5, 2016)

we really are trying everything we can think of. I will keep you all posted. Thanks for all your kind words.


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## jen miller (Jul 6, 2016)

Hello farm friends. Update on my Bella girl. The vet came back in today. This time the same one girl and a different guy. Which I was happy about. Get a new opinion on things. We showed the messages that @Goat Whisperer suggested and I guess they did give her the one kinda med you said. And something about the polio. I can't quite remember what my husband said about that exactly. But they ran her another IV. And the new vet gave her something else in a shot he thought might work. Said her heart mummur didn't appear to be any worse then when she was here last week, but still don't know if she's going into heart failure or if it is the worms. They drew blood and are gonna check her red blood count. she may be anemic. They said we could make a harness and rig something up from the barn beam to get her on her feet. Kinda like they do cows when they are down. She Acts like she wants to get up, but when the vets where holding her up it was like she wouldn't put any pressure on her front right leg.  Possibly bc she hasn't stood for a week now. But we did get a straw bail and laid her on it and at first she wasn't putting anything weight on her front leg, but after a while she did start pushing on it. But It's super hot here.  So we didn't wanna do too much at once Esp with it being so warm out and maybe stress her out. Vet said her eye lids were still paler than what they should be , but he's seen so white before where they should of been dead ,but still weren't. But I guess paler than what they should be is better then white like they were. She seemed to look better.  Atleast to me. She still wasn't up, but she seemed in better spirits.  Eating hay, gobbled down her grain, looking around. She lost alot of her squeaker( her voice) but she was sure trying her best to give us hell bc we weren't moving fast to give her grain to her. So I guess still day by day.  Hopefully something comes up in her blood bc they said other than that she's eating, drinking, popping is normal.  I'm not sure if they took a stool sample again  to check for worms or not. You'd think, but I don't remember if my husband said. It was all alot of information to take in when I got home.  I will still continue to keep you app updated


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 6, 2016)

They probably gave her thiamine. I think that would be very good for her. You will need to give several doses. 

If her eyelids are pale, she is anemic. That is the point of looking at the eyelids  

Be *VERY *care with a sling! Don't leave her in it for very long. The pressure can cause them to boat- bloat leading to possible death. Do it for short periods to get those legs working again! 

Glad the vet is working with you


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## jen miller (Jul 6, 2016)

Yes. They did give her thiamine. But he said only one dose of it! so hopefully whatever they gave her today then will work. And it was enough. And the blood results come back with something. So then we know what to fix.
Yes. We , well he knows more about all of this farming stuff then myself. I learn by what he tells me and just from having them for all these years. But he did question doing it bc of hurting her belly. But like you said , limit her time. 1/2 hour maybe. And we would definitely stay with her the whole time. Just to help her get weight on her legs since it's been so long.  Maybe in hopes that will help her stand again. <3 <3


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

well new day, new update.  Her blood count came back normal.  So not anemic.  We are thinking she has that "wasting disease"  I don't know too much about it expect for what my husband has told me.  Just that she got it, if that's the case, when she was a kidd.  From her litter and it normally comes out whenever they are older.  Atleast in cows it does.  They are doing another test of her blood to see if that's what it may be.  If so, Nothing we can really do about it.  I guess make her as comfortable as we can and love her until the end.  Not sure if the other one could have it if Bella does infact have this, but it's something Im choosing not to find out.. Since there is nothing you can do for it, I don't wanna know.  Bc I will spend all my days worrying and upset that she's "sick" or will become "sick"  Guess we wont know anything for sure until tomorrow probably.  Think we will hold off on the sling and trying to stand her up if that's the case.  No point in it if she's really never going to walk again, which it kinda looks that way.  She doesn't seem to be in any pain.  I don't know if she tried to get up earlier today or not.  I came home from work and she was laying on her side.  It looked like she moved her legs around and just couldn't do it and fell over.  We would never let our animals go in pain just for the sake of keeping them around as hard as it will be.  But I just don't feel like shes in pain now.  Uncomfortable maybe just not pain.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2016)

What makes you think she has Johne's? I'm not following.


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## TAH (Jul 7, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> What makes you think she has Johne's?


x2


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

Just from what the vet had said. I guess she thought maybe it's a possibility. That's why they r running another blood test on her.  That it normally happens in cows , but it's not unheard of of goats to get it. do you thinkher symptoms and how she is now is not related to that? I've never even heard of it until today.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2016)

I don't see why the vet thinks it's Johnes. It doesn't sound like she has the symptoms- at least not from what you have described. Does she have good body condition?  

What does her coat look like? 

Remind me again, when was her last fecal run? 

Did the vet look over her feet and legs? 

Personally if she were mine I'd work on seeing if she can get up. 

What legs is she having the problems with? Front or back? 

Is it possible to get some pics and possibly a video? You can post them or message them to me.


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

Her body condition is not great. Thin and very boney. We have a neighbor who is a goat farmer and she noticed last year sometime and made the comment that her neck and hips have been shrinking up. She's been healthy but over the past year she has really thinned out. She has never finished her spring shedding. Her hair is coming off in patches. Her last fecal test was done Tuesday . Vet looked over her feet and legs. Said there was no issues. Not swollen or fluid. No injuries.   She's not really using any of her legs. She can move them just won't stand up. We put a bail under her last night and she did have pressure put on them. The vet said it's rare case that she's eating just fine, stool is fine but she can't get up. She said when she called today she was bothered by it that they can't figure out what and why she won't walk so she did research on it and that's how she came up w that disease.  She felt like everything they have done for her and she still hasn't gotten up. But also said that doing this test to see if she does have that , there can false positives. So that confuses me bc how can you ever really tell If she has it if it can come up false positive?  I will get pics of her tomorrow and send to you


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## Latestarter (Jul 7, 2016)

I hate to intersperse myself here, but for the benefit of potentially many, would you consider posting the pics here to the forum? It could prove very helpful/beneficial to someone else down the road who may experience what you are going through. If indeed it does come back positive for Johne's disease, or if it doesn't, and ends up being something altogether different, the progressive pictures and descriptions you've provided could really prove valuable to someone else.


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

I absolutely will!


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)




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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)




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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)




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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

There's my pretty Bella girl.  We didn't get a video at this time bc ya kinda need two ppl to help lift her. To get her front and back side. And in wasn't able to go out. The kids are in bed. But those are the pics we got.


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## TAH (Jul 7, 2016)

She is a pretty girl. Poor girl. It looks like to me her hair is some what thin in some spots.


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## babsbag (Jul 7, 2016)

Poor baby. I have a couple of older goats too and they get to looking pretty rough sometimes. I would ask the vet to draw blood and get a mineral analysis done. You should check her copper, selenium, zinc, and manganese levels. Has she had a loose mineral to eat? Have you ever given her a copper bolus?  I would be doing daily vitamin B shots. Also exercise her legs if she will let you.  What state are you in? Some parts of the country are more deficient in selenium than others. CA where I live is really low so we have to supplement the goats 2x a year.

Johne's usually comes on hard and fast, not over time; hoping and praying that it isn't Johne's. Have they sent in the test for it?  Have you or the vet been checking her temp?


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

Yes  She Does have hair there. It's just very thin.  It's not just bare skin. But not like it should normally be


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## babsbag (Jul 7, 2016)

Another thing, you mentioned a heart murmur and a goat the is low in selenium could very well have a heart murmur. It is also called white muscle disease and it will affect the heart. You can give her a Bo-Se injection and you should see improvement in 24 hours if that is the problem. 

Also, I don't know where you live but liver fluke is another possibility.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2016)

2x on everything babs said!!!

I'm not going to lie, she looks really bad 

Ok- a fecal was run but what did the vet see?

Really wish you mentioned that she has bald patches and is very thin earlier.

I suspect you have several issues going on right now...

Mineral depletion and parasites- both internal and external can cause this. You need to have a mineral analysis run, I would not wait on this. I believe PADLS will do the analysis-
http://www.padls.org/index.html

If they aren't getting proper minerals their parasite resistance goes down. Babs is right that you can also get a murmur.

It doesn't sound like these vets are really familiar with caprines, not trying to down them but goats aren't like other livestock.  Do you have another vet or even a very experienced goat breeder come out and look her over?


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

I'm from Pa.   She did get a few vit shots when the vet was here. And she has one more shot left for that whole worm thing she had/ has going on. The vet should be calling tomorrow with the blood results


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## babsbag (Jul 7, 2016)

I would make sure that the vitamin shot is Bo-Se (probably is, but ask anyways). Also like @Goat Whisperer said, check for external parasites too...lice and mites.  If she does not have Johne's then I would for sure do a mineral analysis and treat her for liver flukes. Do you have irrigated pasture?  The treatment for liver flukes is Ivermectin PLUS.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 7, 2016)

What was in the the shots?

It likely isn't enough. 

Have you had minerals out for her?


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

We just said about calling another vet in. Your right. She doesn't look good. Her hair is rough looking. But It has been. I just took it as being 10 years old. I'm sorry. Her feed she gets is supposed to have all that mineral stuff and what she needs in it. She does have a heart mummur. The vet said she didn't hear any difference from when she was here the last time. (Just last week tho) I'm saving these msgs and I am gonna tell the vet, new or old or both. Whoever we bring in to see her and see what they say.  Thank you guys all so much for your advise. I really can't thank you enough.


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

She isn't a pasture goat. We give her grain and her hay.  They both get like a cup of grain a daym Every now and then we will stick her out in the field to eat up some grass , but it's not often and obviously not lately.. They have the run of the whole barn. And then the outside part of it.


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## jen miller (Jul 7, 2016)

You guys must think I'm the most inexperienced goat person out there. Lol.  And really, after hearing all of this... I am. I never did 4H w mine. They are strictly my pets for me to love. And other than a few bumps in the road here or there. We haven't had too much of a problem w them. My husband like i said is the farm guy. But at their farm they have cows. So he was a better off then myself w goats but still kinda in the dark. Just going by live stock in general. We've had these well Bella for 8 years and Emma for 6 or 7.  So everything you guys tell me , I handed the phone right over to him. Bc he knows what this means and that means. Whatever her outcome is, she's had the best life a goat could ever have.  Your neck of the woods seems to know more than my neck of the woods w this, yes your definitely right on that @Goat Whisperer .  You guys have all been so wonderful. Once we hear from the vet and mayne call the other one in for his two cents, I will update you all


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## Latestarter (Jul 7, 2016)

You don't provide your goats minerals? Goats need the minerals... in addition to hay/feed/pasture, free choice. They shouldn't be generic but should be formulated for goats so they have the proper balance and copper which some others who also need minerals can't or shouldn't have. You should use the granulated, not a block, as the block can damage their teeth. Low copper and selenium commonly causes coat issues and eventually other problems similar to what you're experiencing. I think maybe Babs hit it right on here.


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## babsbag (Jul 7, 2016)

What @Latestarter said. Grain and hay for a goat, even the best you can get of both is not going to give them the minerals they need. Copper and selenium are a huge battle for most every goat owner. She needs a good mineral for goats, Purina, Manna Pro, Sweetlix, are the names of some I see. She needs a loose mineral, not a block, and even then on occasion they may need a bolus or an injection. Multi-Min 90 is an injectable that you can get from Jeffers with a prescription. I do it every 4 months.  Her coat just shouts out to me that she needs a mineral.

Livestock can have a steep learning curve and I have been lucky to have an amazing goat vet and a mentor. It takes a village to raise a goat and if you have had Bella for 8 years you must be doing something right or she survives on love.    If the Johne's test is negative please talk to the vet about the mineral analysis.


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## chiques chicks (Jul 7, 2016)

I'm in PA, and yes, it can be hard finding a goat vet depending on where you are in the state. I'm in a very agricultural area and goat vets are few and far between.


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## babsbag (Jul 9, 2016)

Did you hear anything from the vet regarding the blood test?


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## babsbag (Jul 12, 2016)

Just checking in on Bella


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## Latestarter (Jul 20, 2016)

Can we have a status update please? How is your girl doing? Reading back, my previous post may have sounded accusatory, and it wasn't meant that way at all! Hope you'll let us know the status/outcome. Hope also that it's a good one.


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