# Can I get your opinion on my does



## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 2, 2017)

Please be honest with your opinions and or critisms I would like to know the good and bad about them, will also try to get more pics 




 



Aameerah is a 9 month old (born 12/19/16) chocolate chamiosse doeling (top pic) adga Nigerian 





 
Cami 5 year old buckskin doe adga Nigerian


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 3, 2017)

Tagging some people that may have feedback for you.  I don't know much about conformation etc so I won't comment on that.  Cami has neat coloring!

@OneFineAcre @Goat Whisperer @Fullhousefarm @babsbag


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 3, 2017)

Thank you


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## babsbag (Oct 3, 2017)

I'm not a confirmation expert either, other than udders. And I have even less experience with nigis. Have to leave this question to the show pros.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 3, 2017)

Thanks


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## Mini Horses (Oct 3, 2017)

I'm no expert but here's an opinion --

Personally, I like the body length on the young one.  She's a touch high at the withers but, that is probably just a growth issue right now as well as her posture LOL.   Otherwise, appears to have a level topline.  Leg placement appeals to me, with good chest.  Can't see width but, with decent weight at her age & body size, good depth from side, would guess the width would be comparable.  Legs look nice & straight in front, well angled at back.  I see no cow hock issue with the picture there.  Her hip & shoulder angles equal nicely.   I would buy her if looking.

The doe, appears nice.  Harder to tell details on her due to the coloring throwing you off in the picture angles.  I'm thinking may be a tiny bit slight in the hip.  Overall she appears very healthy and sturdy.  Would definitely be one I would look at closer if several were presented in a lot.

We have some REAL show people here who can help with your questions.   But I like to point out what I see when I look.  Will enjoy reading their input.  Always like to learn from them.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 3, 2017)

Thank you for your input @Mini Horses what angles/pics would be better? (How do they need to stand for best photos) I will try to get some more photos later this afternoon if I can get one of my brothers to take them


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## Southern by choice (Oct 6, 2017)

Saw your post the other day but haven't had any time to post anything.
I just saw your other post about shows in your region etc.

As far as "setting" up your doe or buck...
It takes some practice and patience. 

I don't show but my partner on the farm does. She will be taking 20+ does to NC State Fair in 2 weeks. 
I get to do the fitting.  I stay on the farm to run things. 

Looking at your first two pics-
I think you are doing a great job! 
When using something to distract them they can get out of their best position and end up not looking the way you want. I have bloopers pics that can show you what I mean.

The second pic is better than the first because she is more "squared" legs are much better in position
The front legs are a little far forward... can you see that

Below is your pic- I used (feeble attempt) paint to try and explain- I think having something visual is helpful... I have blooper photos of our goats that will help you as  well I think. 

The red line over rear=  this is nice  You want to be able to drop in "invisible pin" down the pin bones that goes straight down to the hocks and pasterns. 

The yellow line over the rump, it looks like you are "tickling" in the wrong area, the green line represents where is usually best to "tickle" to help the goat level out.

The pink line represents the topline, you want the goat to at least be level or uphill.

Keeping the head high plays a big part. Some goats will try to pull their body down when being handled, this can make the does legs appear "knobby", make the pasterns to look weak, and the feet toe out- as indicated by the blue lines.    
I suspect she may have also angled in her hocks- iow if you looked from behind the legs would angle toward each other causing the toes to point out. 

@Goat Whisperer  (farm partner)walked by and she is contributing to the post as well.    

Anyway I see some really nice things about this girl.  Looks  like she has nice angulation, nice long neck, brisket looks well defined, and I suspect with a little more working with we will see a nice topline too. 

It is always nice to see them just standing in the field and see how they just "look"... Often on a stand they are a little less cooperative and tend to not show themselves in the best light.

Your other doe- on the stand it is really hard to tell much because she is simply being silly and wanting what you have so she is really stretched. The natural photo is very nice.

I will get some good pics and the blooper pics and post them. 
BTW- Welcome to BYH!


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you @Southern by choice and @Goat Whisperer very informative. I will try my best to get some better photos of her without the use of food. In the photo you painted on I had just finished running my hand down her back when my nephew took the photo lol. So essentially her front legs need to move back (I had thought so when I saw the photo) when you you suspect she angled in her hocks is that something that setting up correctly would fix you think?
Thank you again


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 6, 2017)

Your first doe's rump is too steep at least in the pic
Could be how she is standing 
Better to judge when she is on the move if the rump levels out when she is walking.
I have a doe who went Best in Show a few weeks ago who I think her rump is too steep but apparently it levels when she walks
At least that what the judge said
I like your 5 year old


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you, I will try to get some photos of her standing as correctly as I can get her, some natural photos and some in motion thank you


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## alsea1 (Oct 7, 2017)

I don't know anything about show goats but both are adorable.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 7, 2017)

Thank you


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 7, 2017)

So I didn't have anyone to hold her but here are a few photos of aameerah. I think the angle is all wrong in them though.. will try to get some better ones when I have someone to take the photos


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## JoyfulGoats (Oct 11, 2017)

She seems to have a steep rump, but they can level out with age. She’s not yet full grown, and when they grow in length, it automatically levels their rump. I’ve been told to wait until 1 year old to have a better idea of a goat’s rump. For example, one of my bucklings had a decent rump last month, and now he suddenly changed and his rump is perfectly level. He got a bit longer and it made a huge difference.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Oct 11, 2017)

Thank you


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 4, 2017)

My newest doeling coming in February  any thoughts on her bloodline?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 5, 2017)

Both lines are very nice. 
When will they be DNAing her?
She is a lovely lil doe!  Why do you have to wait til February?


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 6, 2017)

Thank you, I have to speak with the breeder to see about the DNA test. The breeder likes for the doeling to be weaned at 4 months (I could take her and bottle feed but I don't have the time to do so right now with my work schedule) I'm not sure if she (the breeder) is waiting until doeling is paid in full before DANA testing (she let me pay half up front half when I get Lillie (doeling)

Going to pay her off the 25th then will be DNA testing her


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 12, 2017)

My newest doe (not my gold and white doeling Lillie another new one )
She was a yearling in this photo opinions on her? 2017 la scores E++EVV+VV+V+ 83 as a 2 year old


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## Southern by choice (Nov 12, 2017)

Do you have any current pics? Udder shots?

Congrats on your new addition. 

What do YOU like about her... that is really important... what is it that said to you- hmmm I really like this doe? What did you see that you said- I really like this, I really like that... and so on.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 12, 2017)

I just got photos from the appraisal this year that was 7 days after kidding. Will be getting new photos hopefully tomorrow. She is staying at the farm to be bred, will be bringing home in December. Attached are photos from the appraisal.
 I like her personality. Unfortunately I am not truly experienced enough in goats to know "oh this one's confirmation is good" or "these bloodlines are good" so I have been talking with a reputable breeder local to my area,(and here) I have explained that I am inexperienced and that I would like to breed quality over quantity to where if I decided I wanted to  show any of my goats I could. She is the one where my does are currently being bred and where I have purchased my doeling from,  to my eye she has good confirmation and a good udder (but again I am inexperienced) I am hoping to be able to get some paint kids out of her. She is being bred to gypsy moon shogun.
She is hunched up in the one photo


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 12, 2017)

Is Gypsy Moon the breeder you are working with?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 12, 2017)

It is really difficult to get a good accurate assessment of an udder that is just newly fresh.
The reason is because there is generally some edema, some goats have a lot of edema some less... but what you want to see is what that udder looks like a few months fresh generally around the 8 week mark you get to really see where that teat placement ends up and how well the attachment is. That is important because she is so fresh in the pic the teat placement is not desirable- BUT often those teats will kind of come into place within the first two months. (First fresheners)
Yeah, silly girl was hunched in the photo. We never get good pics in a stanchion either. 

When working with your breeder it is a really good thing when the breeder can point out to you what the strengths and weaknesses of the goat are and help guide you in understanding why they have chosen a particular buck to breed to. Since they have selected the buck already it would be good for you development of understanding the "whys".

It looks like your breeder has brought in a lot of different genetics from some very well known farms. 

Gypsy Moon has some very nice goats.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

@OneFineAcre  I am not working with gypsy moon, I am working with a good friend of hers. I am working with mh5t farms

@Southern by choice   thank you, I had already asked if she would do that for my does. I will ask her why she suggested Shogun for opera (new doe) to be bred to. She really likes the udders and teats that come from him that much I know. For teat placement you want them towards the middle right?
 She (the breeder) did say that the only reason she is selling her is because she does not work with these bloodlines, said that when she purchased her she was spot on confirmation wise and had a lovely udder (her words exactly) I will be going to the farm the 25th and we will be going over all 3 does strengths and weaknesses (I might even be able to get good pics lol)

I will be getting at least 2 of my does appraised this year, will be using her farm for it, any suggestions of what the goats need to be able to do (i.e. stack, walk correctly on lead ect.) I would like to be able to start doing what needs to be done now, my does (not sure how opera does and Lillie needs trained) all walk on a lead, not like a show goat (not right beside me) also do they need to know how to tie? The breeder said it would be good if they walk on a lead for the appraisal but I don't know if they take points off for not walking,standing behaving well or not.

Thank you


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Learning how to read a LA takes time but can be a useful tool.

IOW lets say you have a doe with a + rump  ... you would really want improvement  on that rump or whatever you feel you what to work on first... so you look for a buck that  is going to improve those areas. Because rump is important it would not be advantageous to breed to a buck that only has a + rump. 

We haven't done LA's - hasn't been a priority for us. We may do them this year- depends on the expense...
GoatWhisperer has been to a few LA's...  but One Fine Acre  has had 2 years I think of La's so he can tell you what would be most advantageous.
LA's are a tool but they are not the end all be all IMO. 
I  would imagine being able to walk them up nicely would be of benefit and having them stand nicely while also being touched will only help.

The chart below might help you see more about udders.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

@Southern by choice thank you


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Have you seen what a LA read out looks like?


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

I'm not sure, I know on her website she had la scores for some of her goats which is where I got what I put in the original post about her. I attached it


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Because we haven't done LA yet I can only put up an example of the dam of our doe Mariah (Lamancha)
I am looking for the charts for understanding- I can't find them. It will help you understand the points etc


This doe is an exceptional doe- but for example you wouldn't take this doe and put a mediocre buck over her.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

This is from the ADGA-
It is the blue book for LA
https://adga.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LA_BOOKLET.pdf

It is a good read. 

Personally I see LA as a tool and only a tool.
Sometimes you can have 2 spectacular goats appraising very high but their genetics end up not meshing and you have a trainwreck on your hands. Anyone that has been breeding for 20-30 years will tell you that yep- this happens and you lose a few years on your breeding program.
Sometimes you may have a doe that does not LA well, but is a great brood doe- putting the right buck over that doe is very important.
We have seen does LA at 80-81 but bred with a great buck and offspring appraise very high.
This tells me two things- One- that doe has some good stuff behind her but she somehow got the short end along the way... but she may be passing some good things on. Two- The buck needs to be really good to bring out the best for the offspring.

For me- I use my eyes. I either like the goat or I don't. 

In a nutshell- show wins, LA's, Milktest are all different tools... but the key most important things IMO are not something that can be "measured".
I want the goat to be hardy, parasite resistant, easy keepers, great foragers, kid without issues, milk with ease and a desire to milk. 

I have some "fru fru" goats that I am working on bringing more of that robust hardiness to.

It looks like you are building a good starter herd. As they develop and grow, kid, milk etc you will learn so much. You will start seeing the things you like, things you don't... what you want to improve on etc.  
I am excited for you. Personally I think this is the fun part.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

Thank you  I am trying to start with good quality to keep good quality and hopefully breed up.


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## Bayleaf Meadows (Nov 13, 2017)

@Southern by choice - Where did the diagram of the udders come from? I didn't see it in the ADGA link.  It has mention of the ideal and some defects which aren't commented about in the LA booklet.  The booklet just has numbers and it would be nice to know which numbers are good, better, best, etc. like the udder diagram shows.  I noticed that "teats too bulbous" is mentioned, but that wouldn't be an evident fault if you just go by the ADGA LA booklet.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> @Southern by choice - Where did the diagram of the udders come from? I didn't see it in the ADGA link.  It has mention of the ideal and some defects which aren't commented about in the LA booklet.  The booklet just has numbers and it would be nice to know which numbers are good, better, best, etc. like the udder diagram shows.  I noticed that "teats too bulbous" is mentioned, but that wouldn't be an evident fault if you just go by the ADGA LA booklet.



Go to page 11 and it discusses the points system for the teat diameter. also look at page 14
The pic I put up- uhhhhhhhhhhh- I don't know  sitting in one of my folders as an example.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

New pics of opera, they were taken and sent to me today. In the both photos Lillie is standing behind her making opera look like she has a big 'ol tan bump lol


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Totally different thing here but I love her little tail! We have a few Nigerians with teeny tiny short tails I think it is just the cutest.

What I recommend is you "hold" here. This makes 4 does right?
Two are bred? 
This gives you the opportunity to retain. The only way to tell what you have and what bucks are doing over the does is to retain kids... then breed them when they are old enough. This way you get to see what you want to do with your program.

I will pm you a few things.


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

I have a total of 4 adult does and one doeling. My one doe was confirmed bred by a vet, 2 of them were sent to the farm where I am purchasing Lillie and opera for breeding and opera is being put with gypsy moon Shogun shortly. But yes I told myself no more goats (at least buying goats)
Thank you for all of your help


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 13, 2017)

Oh I asked why the breeder choose Shogun for opera and this Is what she said "I picked Shogun because he has a high ratio of does and I like his daughters. They're well put together and freshen very nicely. He's also very wide which translates well to kidding."


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2017)

Great you are getting some feedback. 

How is the lead training going?


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Nov 14, 2017)

I bring Lillie and opera home Dec 9th. My other does walk pretty decently (not like show goats but decent) haven't had a chance to go out and train them better lately. I don't get home from work until after 6 and it gets dark here 5:30-5:45ish. I will be trying for Wednesday (I'm off from work) any ideas on how to get them to walk correctly? (Beside you like they are supposed to) I know how to train dogs to do it but not sure about goats lol
Would you suggest Everytime I stop walking to "set them up"? Like with dogs I always like to have them sit everytime I stop (makes for a little calmer of a dog lol)


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Jan 1, 2018)

Sweet horizon Nigerians said:


> My newest doeling coming in February  any thoughts on her bloodline? View attachment 39905


Lillie's dad is livin my dream sb peeta. Working on getting all the registration worked out  she is the LOUDEST goat I have ever heard....she sounds like she is being killed anytime she sees a human or gets a little to far from her buddy or hears the front door lol

And then just some random pics  my lamancha Fritz is so jealous


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## Sweet horizon Nigerians (Mar 20, 2018)

Some new photos of the girls. Forgive me that they are not the best, found out it is very hard to get semi-decent photos by yourself lol they are also fuzzy lol I was unable to get decent ones of cami and moonpie,  moonpie was just uncooperative and shadows we're playing on cami making her look like she has a severe dip in her chine so those have been excluded also I know the camera angles are wrong sorry

 

Lillie was not thrilled about this lol. On a more serious note I really need to improve on these legs,feet and this rump hoping my new bucks will be able to improve once she is of size. She is 5 months in this photo the soonest I would consider breeding her would be this Oct (she will be a year old) and if she is of size.


 

aameerah I believe could use work on legs and defininantly the rump and maybe the brisket? She is bred in these photos due by the end of April.

Found an older photo of cami! This was taken 2/11/18 she had triplet bucklings 3/2/18




Any thought or opinions would be greatly appreciated. Will try to get better photos of my other girls


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