# What is better Marrams or grat pyrmaed?



## EmilyVioletElithabeth (Oct 5, 2015)

I'm planing on getting an LGD for my farm. I have narrowed it down to these two breeds (marrama or great pyrenees ) but I would like to know what they are like from someone who has owned then and not some web site.

I have 26 goats, 30 chickens that run around the farm with no fences and 3 cats. She also has to be good with my children. I have a 3 year old, a 5 your old and one on the way.

I have a German shepherd Australian shepherd mix dog at the moment. she is a good gard dog but let’s raccoons and skunks in the farm. She is also very scard of thunder and gun sound. if she hares it all she wants to do is get inside and who cares about the goats when there’s a thunder storm going on, that’s what she thinks during that time.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 5, 2015)

Mmmmm ... well that is very subjective. 
I can say with the number of trouble calls and issues by breed the Maremma has a higher percentage of difficulty in training.
Keep in mind that is by percentage. There are many more Great Pyrenees than Maremmas so obviously more calls but Maremma's and Maremma crosses take the cake.

Ask someone that has Maremmas and they will say maremmas, ask someone with Great Pyrenees and they will say Pyrenees, Anatolians the same... and on and on.

I like larger LGD's personally and LGD's that are less "primitive".
We have Anatolian Shepherds, Great Pyrenees, and Anatolian/Pyr's. All 3 are different. We have 5 Great Pyrenees, 2 Anatolians, and purposely bred (waited 3 years for this litter) of Anatolian Pyr Pups (9 months). We are retaining one, so will have him when we move... 2 staying til completely trained and one other under contract as started. I love all 3 "breeds" , but they are all different.

Keep in mind that you will need to work with your LGD. Especially for poultry. 
YOU MUST HAVE A FENCE. PERIOD.
It might be a good idea to go into the LGD section and read many articles, posts, threads about these dogs. They are very different.

Do you have the time to raise a LGD?
How much land are you on?
Predator threat etc.


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## Devonviolet (Oct 6, 2015)

We have 2 Maremma's - brother and sister from the same litter. I must say, we adore our LGDs, and they are doing a good job guarding our goats. But, I'm not sure what I was thinking, getting brother/sister. I'm also disappointed that the breeder let us do that. Our female, Violet, is due to come into heat, and we are having to be extra vigilant to prevent her from becoming pregnant.

This is our first experience with LGDs, so I'm by no means an expert. In my opinion, Southern is about as good as they get for advise on LGDs.

That being said, there are a lot of Pyr's here in Texas.  Not knowing much about LGDs, and not knowing anyone (at the time) that I could ask for advise, I researched both breeds, and 2 things stood out, and I have, personally, had some Pyr owners confirm them.

Southern, please feel free to jump in, if I am wrong - this is based on what I read. Anyway, my reading told me that Pyr's bark a LOT, as a way of warning off predators. Maremma's tend to only bark when they sense a nearby threat. That seems to be true of our two.

The other issue I read about, is that Pyr's tend to like to get out and wander. Here, in Texas, we have seen Pyr's running along roadsides and heard about them getting out and getting hit by cars on the road.

Our Vet had a Pyr show up by his barn, and ended up keeping her, because she seemed to want to stay and guard his Spanish Meat goats. He used to lose several goats a year, to Coyotes, and hasn't lost one since he decided to keep the stray Pyr.

Our 2 have never tried to get out, but after taking them out on leash, we realized they only wanted to be with their goats, so if we move the goats, _they_ go on leashes and we just let the dogs run along with us. The just run ahead and make sure their goats get there safely. 

If I understood correctly, it sounded like you are planning to get only one LGD? I'm not sure what your predator load is, locally. But, if you have Coyotes, foxes or wolves, they run in packs and if you only have one dog, they will have part of the pack distract the dog, while the remainder of the pack will start picking off your herd, one by one. If you have two, one checks out the commotion, while the other stays with the herd.

We have seen our 2 in action practicing this. Violet will be barking in the direction of a perceived threat, while Deo herds all the goats into the goat shed. Its kind of fun to watch.

I can verify what Southern said about needing a fence between the dogs and chickens. At almost one year, Violet still thinks chickens are squeaky toys. We have lost a few, that went over the 4' fence, and are renewing our efforts to train her to leave the birds alone. We recently increased the dividing fence to 6 feet, so hopefully won't have any more episodes of fatal stupidity. We are hoping that as she gets older and matures, she will lose interest in chasing chickens.


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## EmilyVioletElithabeth (Oct 6, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Mmmmm ... well that is very subjective.
> I can say with the number of trouble calls and issues by breed the Maremma has a higher percentage of difficulty in training.
> Keep in mind that is by percentage. There are many more Great Pyrenees than Maremmas so obviously more calls but Maremma's and Maremma crosses take the cake.
> 
> ...


I have 18 acres of land that my goats can go on and we have a large filled around us as well, but because I don’t have something to protect them when there way out there I have them in a small pastor that is close to the house, it's maby 6 acres. I live at home so I'd be able to be with the pup and train it. My ness who is 17 lives with me,  she's great with dogs and would be doing some training when I'm not. She knows there not like a germen shepherd and they need to be trained differently. 

We only have problems with racoons and skunks at the moment.


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## Beekissed (Oct 6, 2015)

Can't say much about which breed is better, but I will say I'm raising a mix of all three breeds right now to guard poultry and doing so without a fence between the dog and chickens.  It's working out wonderfully so far and the pup only needed two verbal corrections to get the picture, so now ignores the chickens.  We'll have to see if that changes as he ages into a more mature, prey driven dog...he's still very young.  

Also had a GP/lab mix female that worked with my poultry and never once offered to harm them...but guarded them very well.  

As for perimeter fencing or some kind of containment for the dog itself, I'd definitely have a way of confining them to the property or work area.  GPs like to go walkabout.  I kept mine at home with a wireless electric system and still do to this day.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 6, 2015)

Yes, our poultry is with the goats and dogs... I was referring to the overall land. Fencing is important.

@Beekissed - No way on Gods green earth would an invisible fence system work for any of my dogs. If the coyotes come close they would go right through it. Heck they broke a steel fencepost to get to something and ripped a hole in the fence. What system do you use? I have never seen one really work well for large dogs.

The barking varies, not so much by breed but more by individual.
Although it does seem a common complaint.
My Anatolians needed work in this area.
 My pyrs, bark when there  is something. So not barky at all.

Pyrs do roam more and Toli's stay put generally. 

Marremas seem to be like all others... some are great with staying put some aren't. Some never adjust to poultry and some are great.
Much depends on the dog and then training.

Some of our dogs never even looked at poultry funny, others...  
But ALL get trained out of poultry issues.  

The biggest thing I see with the Maremmas is many that were breeding them have stopped. I was consulted awhile ago and tried to find a Maremma for a lady that had always had Maremmas... the breeders I knew of all discontinued. Don't know why.

In your case you may be better off with a farmdog. It doesn't seem like you really have a predator issue.


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## goatgurl (Oct 6, 2015)

i have had 1 Pyrenees who spent her time traveling around a 5 mile area and i spent my time looking for her.  no i didn't have great fencing.  it was good enough to keep the goats in but not the dog.  for several years i had Anatolians and loved them.  in pairs one would watch and one would patrol but they had each others back at all times.  i really like Anatolians but fate brought a Maremma into my life and i love that she stays right close to the goats and sheep all the time.  i have 60 acres of which probably 45 is brush and woods.  if the dog is off checking the fence line it is not there to protect the herd and a lot can happen in the few minutes it would take them to get back. 
and as far as poultry goes every LGD i have had has gone thru a teenage phase where the birds were fun to play with.  consistent, consistent training is necessary.  Katie is two now and has finally stopped playing with them at about 18 months.  jasper, my last 'toil loved to pick them up by the tail feathers and run with them.  he would just play them to death and never knew why they quit squawking.  he was also over 18 months old before i convinced him they weren't toys.
having said all that please be aware that having and training a LGD is not easy.  you have to have a stronger personality then they do and they do have strong ideas about what they should and shouldn't do.  i agree with Southern by choice, if your biggest problems are raccoons, skunks and the like a farm collie may be more of what you need.  they protect their family and everything that belongs to their family.  I've thought about getting one myself.


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## Beekissed (Oct 6, 2015)

Southern, I use a Petsafe wireless system and it works amazingly well.  As for going through it, the same will happen for any manner of fencing if the provocation is enough...haven't seen any type of perimeter fencing that will keep a determined dog in if they really want to get past it.  

My GP mix never offered to cross that boundary...she was a big sissy about pain...and she never had it set beyond "training mode".    My Lab/BC mix will cross it when needed~to snatch a pred right outside the boundary~ but returns to it immediately and will stay inside that boundary even when his battery is dead or the power is out for days at a time.   His has also always been set on "training mode" level.  

This new pup?  He's already on level 4, with only two levels more to go if it has to be increased.  Don't know why he doesn't feel it as much as my other dogs...with the other levels he would just shake his head or scratch at his neck like a flea bit him.  

It's pretty much about conditioning, with the shock being more of a deterrent than a physical fence as it provides a negative reinforcement for crossing the boundary, whereas a physical fence does not unless it too has an electric component.

The best thing about this system is, if they do get outside the boundary, it doesn't shock them if they try to come back in.  The wired in-ground systems shock a dog if he tries to come or go, so if they run past the border as they are intent on a predator, they couldn't ever get back in...being less intent and less inclined to ignore the pain upon re-entry.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 6, 2015)

@Beekissed  glad it works for you, it is always nice to hear a success story with these systems. 
The biggest thing IMO is it doesn't keep anything out and that is always an issue.  The next town over from us is having serious coyote issues. They are moving in packs to take larger livestock. Fencing doesn't just keep the livestock and dogs in but certainly is the first line of defense when the threats do come. So bad that the coyotes are coming into the town center.

My neighbor has lost two dogs from coyotes. One dog ran and of course went right through their fence-less system... she didn't make it. Both times the dogs were snatched right off the porch. Their Rottie did nothing.


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## babsbag (Oct 7, 2015)

My dogs *might* stay behind a wireless fence but like Southern said, it doesn't keep anything out. That would scare me to death...I like my 4' high no climb fence with hotwire on the top.


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## Beekissed (Oct 7, 2015)

Our coyote pack came through just last night...the pup's first experience with them.  They were really close to the meadow this time and Jake was barking and howling along with them.  I usually go out when they come that close and I get the chance....I love to howl along with Jake as our answer to the coyotes.   The pup is really too young to bark much...haven't heard him bark other than when playing.  The pup has been sleeping like the dead today, so that adventure last night must have been exciting.  

Now, I've had a single dog guarding these chickens this past 4 yrs here and the coyotes live here close...Mom met one when walking back from the mailbox one day(.4 mile from the house), both were surprised.    She didn't take Jake with her that time or she would have gotten to see his reaction to that 'yote in broad daylight.  She has taken him every time since then, though.  

We have 4 gut piles and one huge bone pile all around the perimeter of the meadow right now, so the coyotes are having a ball with the food.  

What I've noticed different about our coyotes and how folks describe their regional packs, is that ours are VERY wary of humans.  Everyone has a gun in these parts and LOVE to get an opportunity to take a pot shot at a 'yote.  I can't imagine one actually coming up to the house, especially where a savvy dog lives outdoors and a hillbilly lives indoors.  Not even at night.  Oh, they could no doubt take a dog down as a pack, but the fear of the humans here seem to work in our favor.  I've lived in the country all my life and am an outdoorsy person, not to mention have traveled the roads at all hours for work but I've never actually seen a coyote.  They are here, but I've never seen one.  Mom has only seen one and she has lived here for 40 yrs, smack dab in the middle of a thousand acres of woodland.  We hear them aplenty, but we have rarely seen them.  

Jake doesn't go out to meet or confront the pack, but puts his back to the shed where he is sheltered on two sides and he barks from there.  His bark is not a fear bark but a territorial bark...they have a different rhythm and tone.

Could be our system works due to many factors...the nature of the coyotes in this area, the nature of the dog that I have, the fact that they don't NEED to hunt in my meadow for food and my livestock are inside a building at night.  The fact that I contribute to their food supply with the many chicken and deer carcasses and guts~ in season, and even carcasses of the stray dogs that would seek to prey upon the flock, and the fact that they have plenty of their usual prey on which to feed. 

Or it could come down to the simple fact that I commit all my animals to the Lord for protection and He is answering that prayer by protecting them when I cannot.  I believe that is the most accurate reason.  I sleep easy at night knowing that the Creator watches this meadow and has His hand on all that live here.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2015)

Beekissed said:


> Or it could come down to the simple fact that I commit all my animals to the Lord for protection and He is answering that prayer by protecting them when I cannot. I believe that is the most accurate reason. I sleep easy at night knowing that the Creator watches this meadow and has His hand on all that live here.


Well said! 

Coyotes here are also very wary but they are multiplying so quickly they are becoming a real issue. Of course the neighbor (that had dogs taken off the porch) is in the country.. lots of land nothing around. Before we had any of our LGD's that would lurk in the tree line 50 ft from the house. Never could get a good shot and then the fox family started becoming an issue. Our county has the highest (or at least at one time) concentration of rabies infected animals. It is such a concern here in our region. Some knucklehead decided years ago that the best way to take care of the deer population was to bring in coyotes to reduce the population.  Brilliant. Just brilliant.


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## Beekissed (Oct 7, 2015)

No way!!!   Knowing our government, it was their way of controlling our food supply even further, by removing the free large bodies of meat out there in the forest.  

This past winter I didn't hear our pack as often and, when I did, it seemed they had been reduced.  Consequently, we had more deer here than we had seen for a long, long time...probably more than we had seen since the late 70s.  It was nice and we finally could harvest the herd without feeling like we were decimating our meat supply.


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## goatgurl (Oct 9, 2015)

here the state decided a great way to decrease the numbers of coyotes was to infect the pack with mange.  dear God what a horrible death.  now we see naked coyotes running across the fields in broad daylight.  they get close here but kate does the big dog bark thing so they stay out and away from us.


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## frustratedearthmother (Oct 9, 2015)

That is horrid!


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## Beekissed (Oct 10, 2015)

I agree...that is truly gruesome.  And folks still think our government is a wise source of information and is capable of guidance about our food animals...amazes me.


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## goatgurl (Oct 12, 2015)

every time see one i am a combination of sick and very angry.  trust them, yeah right...


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