# Dog took off half my goats ear.... help!



## WhiteMountainsRanch

*5 am and I wake up to my goat screaming... Apparently my OWN dog bit off half her ear THROUGH THE FENCE. He's never done anything like this and I didn't know he would.  


I cleaned it up really well with povidone iodine and took her to the vet. The vet put her on 2cc penicillin twice a day and 1 cc banamine once a day, and also some aluminum spray (aluspray). There were no other puncture wounds or anything.


This morning the ear is swollen up really bad.


Is there anything else I should be doing for her or giving her?

I am seriously considering getting rid of this dog. But who would want a 6 year old 110 pound (fixed) male dog that kills everything.  We've moved his dog run over to the far side of the yard away from everything.


Ugh I am so mad and sad and feel like a total goat mommy failure!!!!!!! Of course she was my very favorite goatie and I won't be able to show her now. *


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## sawfish99

The swelling is natural.

If you keep the dog, you will likely have more problems and vet bills.  If you get rid of it and don't disclose the attacking behavior, you may very well have liability problems later.  

If you put it down, it solves both.


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## BrownSheep

A neighbor dog did the same thing to one of my lambs.  We didn't do anything besides wash it and she was fine. AND I showed  her the following day. I don't see why that would hamper showing. As fo the dog I would either a) invest in professional traing or b) cnsider putting the guy down.


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## elevan

The swelling is definitely natural.  Just keep following the vets protocol.

I'd say the dog would be going (one way or another) if it were here.


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## Straw Hat Kikos

sawfish99 said:
			
		

> The swelling is natural.
> 
> If you keep the dog, you will likely have more problems and vet bills.  If you get rid of it and don't disclose the attacking behavior, you may very well have liability problems later.
> 
> If you put it down, it solves both.


X2


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*We haven't decided what to do with him yet. I didn't want to make any decisions in the heat of the moment. 

He was turned over to the vet hospital where I used to work at for attacking a chihuahua. 

He was raised on one of the local indian reservations where I have heard they let their dogs go wild like wolves. I wouldn't be surprised if he has wolf in him. 

We've had him for almost 4 years now. Problem is that he attacks and kills everything, chickens, rabbits, turkeys, cats, some other dogs, coyotes, and now apparently goats. I didn't think he could get them since they were separated by a fence plus he is on a cable.  

He is a REALLY good guard dog though and keeps away all the predators.

Other than than the fact of his 'wild streak' he is an amazingly well behaved dog. He LOVES people and is housebroken, leash, voice command trained etc.

He would need a home where there is NO other animals at all AND would have to be watched around other dogs when walked. *


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## sawfish99

How is he around small kids?  Based on everything you said he kills, I would NEVER trust him around toddlers and small kids.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

sawfish99 said:
			
		

> How is he around small kids?  Based on everything you said he kills, I would NEVER trust him around toddlers and small kids.


*
He is absolutely a DOLL with people/ humans. He absolutely loves and lives to please. I take him to dog beach all the time (and hiking) and he gets tons of love from strangers. Plus all the people/ kids that come out to the farm, he loves them all. Only thing is that he is big and he could probably unintentionally knock a kid over.*


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## verkagj

Take her to show. When my son was in 4H, he showed the goats (not show quality by any means but there weren't very many goats in Northern Arkansas). A neighbors pit bull dog broke loose and went after the goat babies. Momma interferred and the dog crushed her muzzle. I took lots of pictures and posted them on a board to show what can happen. After months of tube feedings, she healed up and could lap up her grain into her mouth for chewing. She went right back into milk.
PS. Sheriff shot the pit bull after it lunged at him.

Hope she heals up well.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*She didn't even touch her grain today.  I haven't seen her at the hay feeder except maybe once either. She did eat a few bit bites of browse I pulled for her. Poor baby is miserable just standing with her head down staring at nothing. I can tell she is in a lot more pain today than yesterday. *


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## ksalvagno

Did you give her her banamine shot? That should help with the pain.

It is a tough decision to make for the dog. Hopefully you can find a solution that works out best for everyone.


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## RemudaOne

You may need to up the banamine to twice a day. With her depressed and hanging her head, it's making the swelling worse. If you can reduce her pain enough for her to be interested in eating, I would confine her and hang a hay bag so that her head is above her shoulders when she's eating. If you grain, raise the feeder a bit as well. She obviously feels like crap and reducing the pain will help with that.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Did you give her her banamine shot? That should help with the pain.
> 
> It is a tough decision to make for the dog. Hopefully you can find a solution that works out best for everyone.


*

Yes, she got one yesterday (when it happened) about 1 pm, so I did it at the same time again today. She looked that way right before I gave it to her.

Vet said 1cc once a day, should I do 1 cc twice a day or break it up into 1/2 cc twice a day?*


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## redtailgal

If you feel the need to give it twice a day, then go with 1/2 CC at each dose.

Banamine is very hard on the liver and kidneys, using it for long periods of time (I wont go over three days) or larger than needed doses is very hazardous to your animal.


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## RemudaOne

How much do you think she weighs? I've used one cc per 100 pounds of weight on my livestock twice a day when prescribed by my vet. If it were my animal, I would do one cc twice a day today and then call the vet in the morning to confirm with them. You have to make the decision for your baby though. 

I know it's so stressful to see them suffering, hope she perks up soon for you


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## Roll farms

A B multivitamin shot may help her feel a bit better and boost her appetite.  I'd probably give her some probiotics, too, just in case the antibiotics give her the poops.

Good luck, hope she feels better soon!


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## ksalvagno

Banamine really should only be given once a day. I have never given it more than that so I can't advise on giving it twice a day. If you cut the dose in half, it isn't going to work as well. Banamine should be given at 1cc per 100 lbs.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Banamine really should only be given once a day. I have never given it more than that so I can't advise on giving it twice a day. If you cut the dose in half, it isn't going to work as well. Banamine should be given at 1cc per 100 lbs.


*Yes vet said 1 cc per 100 pounds (I believe she is about 115) and only for 3 days. She was just so miserable this morning, I feel so bad! *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

Roll farms said:
			
		

> A B multivitamin shot may help her feel a bit better and boost her appetite.  I'd probably give her some probiotics, too, just in case the antibiotics give her the poops.
> 
> Good luck, hope she feels better soon!


*
Yes I forgot to mention I have her on PROBIOS  she is on 1 "serving" twice a day.


Should the feedstore have the B vitamin? Is there any specific kind or just ask them for a b vitamin shot?

Thank you guys for helping me!*


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## elevan

Your feedstore should carry the vitamin b.  Just ask for Vitamin B complex.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*She seemed better last night than yesterday morning. 

She was at the hay feeder a bit and she ate about 1/2 her grain on the stand, and didn't seem like she was in so much pain. *


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## CochinBrahmaLover=)

\



			
				WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *She seemed better last night than yesterday morning.
> 
> She was at the hay feeder a bit and she ate about 1/2 her grain on the stand, and didn't seem like she was in so much pain. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*She's doing better this morning than last night even. Some of the swelling has gone down in the ear and she is up and alert and eating well. 

I gave her 1 cc benamine last night and 1 cc again this morning. I'll only use it for a total of 3 days but I can tell it's helping her a lot. 

My poor baby girl. *


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## bonbean01

I'm so happy she is doing better now...how awful for you!!!

Was thinking about your dog and you know...if you are careful that it is never near the goats, I believe I would keep your dog if I were you...not too many dogs are good with people yet can kill a coyote!!!!  

We took in a tiny stray puppy that showed up on our porch in a cold rain/wind storm several years ago...she grew into a medium size dog with a really wild streak in her.  She loves us, our poodle and people she is introduced to...but she would kill our chickens and attack our sheep and any intruders or predators if she had the chance.  We keep her on a rope outside with us, tie her securely with a long line and she wears a harness since she can slip any dog collar, and she is a house dog at night.  We call her Crazy Maizey and love her to pieces...she would kill to protect us and excellent at letting us know and track any predator.  So, she is a keeper, but we know now how to handle her.  A guard dog with a huge heart is priceless.  

Your goat will survive...you will survive (probably with more gray hairs...this is tough for you) and your dog may someday save your life.  Just my 2 cents worth.

Have really been thinking about you and hope YOU recover from all of this


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## bonbean01

p.s....you are NOT a bad goat mommie...you didn't know...you took good care of her...you agonized with her...you are a good goat mommie!  We learn...we move on...and I bet your little goatie will be recovered before YOU will be.  Stuff happens...it's upsetting, but things do work out


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> I'm so happy she is doing better now...how awful for you!!!
> 
> Was thinking about your dog and you know...if you are careful that it is never near the goats, I believe I would keep your dog if I were you...not too many dogs are good with people yet can kill a coyote!!!!
> 
> We took in a tiny stray puppy that showed up on our porch in a cold rain/wind storm several years ago...she grew into a medium size dog with a really wild streak in her.  She loves us, our poodle and people she is introduced to...but she would kill our chickens and attack our sheep and any intruders or predators if she had the chance.  We keep her on a rope outside with us, tie her securely with a long line and she wears a harness since she can slip any dog collar, and she is a house dog at night.  We call her Crazy Maizey and love her to pieces...she would kill to protect us and excellent at letting us know and track any predator.  So, she is a keeper, but we know now how to handle her.  A guard dog with a huge heart is priceless.
> 
> Your goat will survive...you will survive (probably with more gray hairs...this is tough for you) and your dog may someday save your life.  Just my 2 cents worth.
> 
> Have really been thinking about you and hope YOU recover from all of this


*
That describes my dog to a tea! Except he is huge.  We do have him on a 100' cable run, guess it was just too close to the goat fence in one area. Ironic part is we're moving next month and I was going to put his run farrrr away from all the other animals. So crazy this had to happen 1 month before we move. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> p.s....you are NOT a bad goat mommie...you didn't know...you took good care of her...you agonized with her...you are a good goat mommie!  We learn...we move on...and I bet your little goatie will be recovered before YOU will be.  Stuff happens...it's upsetting, but things do work out


*
Thanks Bonbean,  I do know it was traumatic for the goat, but when the vet looked at her she was like she is perfectly fine, acting normal and everything. I was probably more traumatized than the goat! I felt like a blubbering fool crying in front of the vet AND it was the first time I had met her.  I still can't believe it happened. He had never even looked twice at the goats and I walked them past him every day twice a day to milk!!! I would have thought MAYBE if anything he would just try to snap at one, but not bite the ear OFF and never would have thought he would have done it THROUGH the fence. The vet said we are lucky that he didn't get her whole head and cause some serious damage, and she said it's good we found out now instead of him eating a little baby goat! *


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## bonbean01

Hey...maybe this happening now before your move saved you from more problems in your future.  Our Crazy Maizey went nuts one day when we were under a tree...never thought to look up until she alerted us...two snakes right over our heads and we have copperheads in this area.  Keep your dog...and move forward...truly, it will all work out


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## bonbean01

Guess we were both posting at the same time...LOL...just saw your post, and yes...it could have been worse.  Relax...this will all work out, and be gentle on yourself


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*Here is the offender on the left, and my mastiff when she was a puppy.








And my poor baby girl (with both her ears)...




*


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## RemudaOne

So glad to know she's on the mend . And so glad to hear YOU sound so much happier! These animals are so resilient and it's hard to know who it's more stressful for....them or US . The dog and the goat are both lucky to have you.


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## bonbean01

Your dogs are both beautiful...yes..also the offender.  Darling little goatie...she'll be fine   Thanks for the pics!


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## Roll farms

The offender looks to have Malamute in it.......I love, love, LOVE that breed but know better than to get one since they have such a huge prey drive and I have soooo much prey (goats, rabbits, chickens, cavy, prairie dog, etc).

Your wounded doe looks JUST like my doe, Derri.

Glad she's feeling better.


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## BlondeSquirrel04

Prey drive and dog aggression have nothing to do with human aggression. They come from different parts of the brain. Keep the dog and let him do what he was meant to do: work.

Hope the goat's ear is on the mend. Poor thing!


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## redtailgal

If you are going to keep the dog, why not try some intensive training with him?  With just a little behavior modification, the dog will not be such a liability to have around livestock.

Aggression is aggression, it comes in many forms and for many reasons, but MOST dogs can learn to control that aggression.  Sure, this is a high prey drive dog, but high prey drive does not mean untrainable.......as a matter of fact, it's my opinion that high drive dogs are smarter and make better dogs when they have a little education.


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## bonbean01

RTG that is very good advice!  I thought our wild hair streak Crazy Maizey could not be trained at all...but this spring I began with her when I moved the sheep and lambs from one pasture to another and used only my tone of voice with her...of course on a long rope to avoid any injury if it didn't go well.  To my amazement, it only took one break from her lie down command and me asking her sternly what it was that she didn't understand about my talk to her...she acted like I'd beaten her (which I have never done...don't believe in that kind of training), and since then she has been awesome.  I would never trust her alone with them ever, but am so pleased that she is now an asset and not a liablility when moving the sheep   She looks forward to it and I see that with more training I can keep her protection instincts that I value, but also teach when and where to use that.  No luck with the chickens yet...will have to work on that


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## Hillsvale

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *We haven't decided what to do with him yet. I didn't want to make any decisions in the heat of the moment.
> 
> He was turned over to the vet hospital where I used to work at for attacking a chihuahua.
> 
> He was raised on one of the local indian reservations where I have heard they let their dogs go wild like wolves. I wouldn't be surprised if he has wolf in him.
> 
> We've had him for almost 4 years now. Problem is that he attacks and kills everything, chickens, rabbits, turkeys, cats, some other dogs, coyotes, and now apparently goats. I didn't think he could get them since they were separated by a fence plus he is on a cable.
> 
> He is a REALLY good guard dog though and keeps away all the predators.
> 
> Other than than the fact of his 'wild streak' he is an amazingly well behaved dog. He LOVES people and is housebroken, leash, voice command trained etc.
> 
> He would need a home where there is NO other animals at all AND would have to be watched around other dogs when walked. *


Sorry... be he IS a predator. I get that he is good with people and all but if it is killing livestock you need to remove him from your farm. I hope your girl feels better and you... we had a rescue shepherd that killed young livestock, the day it killed a new born piglet snatched through the fence he went on a leash every time he went outside and we waited for a foster home for him... he was a wonderful people dog as well.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> RTG that is very good advice!  I thought our wild hair streak Crazy Maizey could not be trained at all...but this spring I began with her when I moved the sheep and lambs from one pasture to another and used only my tone of voice with her...of course on a long rope to avoid any injury if it didn't go well.  To my amazement, it only took one break from her lie down command and me asking her sternly what it was that she didn't understand about my talk to her...she acted like I'd beaten her (which I have never done...don't believe in that kind of training), and since then she has been awesome.  I would never trust her alone with them ever, but am so pleased that she is now an asset and not a liablility when moving the sheep   She looks forward to it and I see that with more training I can keep her protection instincts that I value, but also teach when and where to use that.  No luck with the chickens yet...will have to work on that


*

I did the same thing with him, as I mentioned I walked the goats by him every day, tone of voice telling him to leave it, we were fine for 6 months, I thought he was being really good... and then when no one was looking early in the morning he grabbed her through the fence. 

I don't know what kind of training it would take to break him of it, since he grew up hunting on the indian reservation I have a feeling he can't be "fixed"...*


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## redtailgal

It's rare to find one that cant be "fixed", even one that grew up hunting like this one has.  It's VERY intensive though, and you'd need to do what I call the umbilical method where the dog is physically attached to you by a lead that gets longer and longer as he progresses, or be restrained in a small area when not attached to you.  I've used this method on many problem dogs, both fearful and aggressive. I've even used it to "re-program" retired police dogs.  Its intensive, but it works.

Only you can decided the "right" thing, either working with him and keeping him, or re-homing with full disclosure or euthanasia.  A good rescue may take him, if they have a foster home that can work with his habits.  Honestly, if he was on my farm right now.......the right thing for me to do would be to euth him.  I dont have the time it would take to educate him and "problem" dogs frequently end up abused when rehomed.   Now, this time last year, I would have had the time to work with him and would have done so rather than put him down.  Its so different for each person, from farm to farm, etc.

Granted, the dog is a predator, and he is acting on instinct, but the basis of this problem is that he hasnt been taught otherwise.  He isnt behaving like just a dog or just a predator, he is behaving like a dog that has no education on these matters.  When dealing with dogs, we all realize that it's their instinct to hunt, kill and protect.  But its an often forgotten fact that it's also a very strong instinct to please the "master" or leader of the pack.  Dogs that chase, hunt and kill, do so because their natural instinct tells them this is what the leader wants them to do, but with a little education that instinct can be molded.  Dogs are intensely social animals, and the instinct to please their leader is a much stronger instinct.  We just need to show them what they need to do to please us.

If you decide to keep him and work with him, feel free to come to me, if you wish, for some help.  We can PM or talk publicly, your choice.


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## terrilhb

redtailgal said:
			
		

> If you are going to keep the dog, why not try some intensive training with him?  With just a little behavior modification, the dog will not be such a liability to have around livestock.
> 
> Aggression is aggression, it comes in many forms and for many reasons, but MOST dogs can learn to control that aggression.  Sure, this is a high prey drive dog, but high prey drive does not mean untrainable.......as a matter of fact, it's my opinion that high drive dogs are smarter and make better dogs when they have a little education.


X2


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## Hillsvale

redtailgal said:
			
		

> It's rare to find one that cant be "fixed", even one that grew up hunting like this one has.  It's VERY intensive though, and you'd need to do what I call the umbilical method where the dog is physically attached to you by a lead that gets longer and longer as he progresses, or be restrained in a small area when not attached to you.  I've used this method on many problem dogs, both fearful and aggressive. I've even used it to "re-program" retired police dogs.  Its intensive, but it works.
> 
> Only you can decided the "right" thing, either working with him and keeping him, or re-homing with full disclosure or euthanasia.  A good rescue may take him, if they have a foster home that can work with his habits.  Honestly, if he was on my farm right now.......the right thing for me to do would be to euth him.  I dont have the time it would take to educate him and "problem" dogs frequently end up abused when rehomed.   Now, this time last year, I would have had the time to work with him and would have done so rather than put him down.  Its so different for each person, from farm to farm, etc.
> 
> Granted, the dog is a predator, and he is acting on instinct, but the basis of this problem is that he hasnt been taught otherwise.  He isnt behaving like just a dog or just a predator, he is behaving like a dog that has no education on these matters.  When dealing with dogs, we all realize that it's their instinct to hunt, kill and protect.  But its an often forgotten fact that it's also a very strong instinct to please the "master" or leader of the pack.  Dogs that chase, hunt and kill, do so because their natural instinct tells them this is what the leader wants them to do, but with a little education that instinct can be molded.  Dogs are intensely social animals, and the instinct to please their leader is a much stronger instinct.  We just need to show them what they need to do to please us.
> 
> If you decide to keep him and work with him, feel free to come to me, if you wish, for some help.  We can PM or talk publicly, your choice.


Talk publicly please... lots of posts with people who have issues, myself included and we have been rescuing dogs for years. Everyone can use the info.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

redtailgal said:
			
		

> It's rare to find one that cant be "fixed", even one that grew up hunting like this one has.  It's VERY intensive though, and you'd need to do what I call the umbilical method where the dog is physically attached to you by a lead that gets longer and longer as he progresses, or be restrained in a small area when not attached to you.  I've used this method on many problem dogs, both fearful and aggressive. I've even used it to "re-program" retired police dogs.  Its intensive, but it works.
> 
> Only you can decided the "right" thing, either working with him and keeping him, or re-homing with full disclosure or euthanasia.  A good rescue may take him, if they have a foster home that can work with his habits.  Honestly, if he was on my farm right now.......the right thing for me to do would be to euth him.  I dont have the time it would take to educate him and "problem" dogs frequently end up abused when rehomed.   Now, this time last year, I would have had the time to work with him and would have done so rather than put him down.  Its so different for each person, from farm to farm, etc.
> 
> Granted, the dog is a predator, and he is acting on instinct, but the basis of this problem is that he hasnt been taught otherwise.  He isnt behaving like just a dog or just a predator, he is behaving like a dog that has no education on these matters.  When dealing with dogs, we all realize that it's their instinct to hunt, kill and protect.  But its an often forgotten fact that it's also a very strong instinct to please the "master" or leader of the pack.  Dogs that chase, hunt and kill, do so because their natural instinct tells them this is what the leader wants them to do, but with a little education that instinct can be molded.  Dogs are intensely social animals, and the instinct to please their leader is a much stronger instinct.  We just need to show them what they need to do to please us.
> 
> If you decide to keep him and work with him, feel free to come to me, if you wish, for some help.  We can PM or talk publicly, your choice.


*
I am definitely definitely interested in seeing what ideas you have for my boy. I am a pretty good dog owner myself having had a dogsled team for 10+ years with around 50 dogs, wolf hybrids, malamutes etc. 

This one KNOWS when he shouldn't do something and then does it behind our backs...*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*Here is my baby girl last night. She had her last shot of banamine yesterday morning and seems to be doing just fine. Her ear is already healing together around the egdes! Just have to wait for the flesh in the middle to dry up before that part will heal. 

*


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## SheepGirl

You can spray iodine on the ear to help it dry up faster which in turn will help it heal faster.


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## redtailgal

OK, since you posted this in the open forums, I'll assume that you want to discuss it here.

I DO NOT recommend this type of training on a "regular" dog or on a dog that has aggression towards people (unless you are very skilled in handling troubled dogs).  This type of training is not for basic commands, it is to fix a problem.  

The first thing you need to do is prepare yourself.  You MUST have a spine and a hard heart thru this.  You MUST be consistant. You MUST MUST MUST be consistant......otherwise you will be doing nothing more than torturing this dog.  Be prepared to feel like a total hill, and to irritate a few people.  When it gets hard and frustrating, remind yourself that this may well save this dogs life.

You will start out being overly strict and ease up as his intellect goes in the right direction.  You will need a 4-5 foot lead and a small area to confine him (a crate or a small room).  When he is in the crate or small room (or even a barn stall), he is to have NO attention. NONE.  Don't even look at him, no matter how much he may carry on.

Now, put the leash on him and either hold the lead or attach it to your body.  Where you go he goes.  Take him everywhere you can, if he is a house dog, he goes to the bathroom with you.......

Make him be calm.  If you are standing still, he must SIT.  Ask him to sit, push his bottom down and say GOOD BOY when he does. Just say Good boy, dont pet dont give a treat, say good boy and leave it at that. When he stands back up correct him.  LOUDLY. "NO! Sit!"

Dont set him up for failure....he will not be able to sit but for a few minutes at a time at first.

Use this loud correction everytime he does something you dont want him to do.  Pulling, face licking, jumping, etc.  Once you make something a NO, it must always be a NO without exception.

Stay away from the livestock with him at this point.

You'll keep him on this short leash like this for a couple days.  NO off lead time at all.  Right now, his whole world revolves around you.  NO food in the crate.....he eats only when attached to you (same thing with drinking, it's hot, so be sure to offer water frequently).

Let's talk about being LOUD.  WHen you say NO.......BOOM it out. Draw up your belly and let the word explode out.  Make the word deep and loud.  He should startle when you do it.  If not, give the lead a quick sharp tug (not hard, just enough to get his attention) or goto walmart and buy a small airhorn (they are about 5$ in the sporting goods).  

The loudness is important for this type of situation.  He needs to understand that you are bigger, you are in charge, but his mind hasnt been attuned to paying attention to this yet.  As he progresses you will get softer.


No affection until we reach the breaking point.  The "breaking point"........this is when the dog has began to change the mentality that got him in trouble to begin with.  Dogs reveal it in many ways, but we want a dog that is slightly afraid when he hears you go "NO" in the loud voice.  He should cringe, the tail go down, and he should IMMEDIATELY look to you.  This is your break thru moment.........as soon as he shows that little bit of fear and looks to you (he MUST LOOK TO YOU) then you should IMMEDIATELY lavish him with praise and affection.  Stop what you are doing sit down on the floor and love the snot out of that dog.

The goal is to have him understand that he has every reason to fear you, but trust you enough to not be afraid.  This will make YOU his "hero".......he is frightened and you "rescue" him with your praise.  This will, in the long run, make him more stable mentally (for when we start him with the livestock), and at the same time form a bond to you that causes him to WANT to be part of  your pack (right now, YOUR pack consists of you and your livestock, not him).  Once he wants to be part of it, we'll teach him that the livestock is part of the pack and get him to understand that YOU will assign his place in that pack.

Be patient.  Dont try to rush things.  Be firm, consistant and sound as harsh as you possibly can when you say NO.  Stand up tall and bellow it out.  Make the sound startle him every time if you can.  

Do be patient.  Put him in the crate or room and ignore him when you get frustrated.......frustration renders you unable to teach and your student unable to learn.  Frustration often leads to abuse.  Dont show compassion either, until he has earned it. Compassion isnt all it's chalked up to be, esp when it enables a dog to continue down a distructive path.

I once trained a Doberman that took 6 days to reach the breaking point.  If she hadn't reached it, she would have been euth'd because she had killed several other dogs.  I was harsh,and rigid, and that dog HATED me until she reached her breaking point.  When she "broke", she went down and showed me her belly, she broke so hard.  In five minutes she was wagging her nub and licking my face.  This previous dog killer now lives in a house with 5 corgi's and gets along wonderful.  My lack of compassion was the most compassionate thing I could do for her, she would be dead if I had felt compassion for her before that point.

Your dog may not "break" as hard as this one did......just watch for the fear startle and the eyes on you.  He should show a somewhat submissive stance, even if its just a small one, be prepared to praise praise praise. NO TREATS at this point........your love and attention should be reward enough right now.

Once you get to this point on the short lead, move up to a longer lead (10-15 feet), still not going around the livestock.  He knows what you expect at this point, so YOU need to expect instant and unquestioning obedience from him.  Resort to the loud "NO" correction EACH time you dont get INSTANT obedience.  By instant obedience, I mean INSTANT.  If you say "sit" his but should be on the ground before you draw another breath. There are no exceptions and no excuses......was he too distracted to sit? Tough.  He needs to be paying attention to your voice always.  Wash he distracted by a smell? Tough.  He needs to be paying attention always.  

Dont set him up for failure.....pay attention to his actions as well. If he is sniffing, say him name to gain his attention and then tell him to sit. (or what ever command you want to give him).

This next part is important. Do it carefully.

The final test before moving on to the next phase is to test (and teach) self control.  Place some meat out or a favorite toy.....something he will REALLY want.  But dont let him have it.  When he goes for it........give the NO......and tell him to wait. Praise him (no treats) for backing off.  Make him wait progressively longer each time and then tell him OK and let him have whatever it was. 

THEN

Put something that he would really want but cannot have out within his reach.  A sandwich, a large piece of meat.........honestly, I like a freshly killed carcass of some sort for this step, but maybe your not comfortable with that.

Anyway, when he goes for it give the NO.......be loud and harsh and praise when he backs off (if you completed the previous step he should know to back off).  Tell him "LEAVE IT".  He will wait and go after it again telling him to "LEAVE IT, repeat the whole thing over and over until he looses interest, then and ONLY then give him a treat.  Eventually, he will learn that when he is told to "leave it" he must not even acknowledge the temptation.  He should look away from the temptation and look to you immediately.

When he is at the end of a 15 foot lead, and will obey the command "leave it" without hesitation, he is ready for the next step.......still not going around the livestock, but obeying without question OFF the lead, and learning that "'leave it" means to leave it even when you are not in site.  You'll have to set him up to fail on this part.  Leave the temptation out within reach and then leave the room.....return shortly (within 2 minutes) to find it gone and then crate him and ignore him.  The next time, try to leave it out where you can see him but he cannot see you and give that sharp correction while storming into the room.

Once you are confident in all this, esp with the "leave it' and "No" commands, let me know and we'll teach him about your livestock.  PM me to get my attention if you need to.  Ask me any questions during this process.  You may run into some obstacles, but we'll work them out.

If you start this method, you *must* see it through in a consistent fashion.  Dont make excuses for him.  If you are too tired to do it right, put him in the crate and ignore him.  No toys, no praise, no attention, and no treats except at breakthru moments, for now.  

Now, I want you to understand something.  This harshness IS NOT going to be a permanent thing, you will not be spending the rest of your life with this dog feeling like a hil and a mean drill sargeant.  THe more strict, rigid and harsh you are, the quicker it will be over for him and you.  Dogs are not robots and cannot be expected to live and thrive as one.  Once he is ready, he can go back to a normal dog life.  He will quickly realize that his life is much happier when he behaves in a certain way and will act accordingly. 

He may go thru a slight depression just before he breaks.  If so, you can ease up, but just slightly. Dont break down and let him see you being compassionate though.  He must earn your protection, love and compassion.  Once he earns those things from you, his whole world will revolve around you and he will be hell-bent to please you.  THIS is our goal.


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## GLENMAR

I recently re-homed one of my champion Norfolk terriers because he attacked one of my Sebastopol geese. 
He was a 7 yr old dog, so I knew he would not grow out of his prey drive. He is now living happily with one of my co-workers.
I will not have a dog around that I ca not trust. Sorry this happened to your little girl.


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## ThreeBoysChicks

I have to say that RTG gave you some really good advice.  I don't know that I could explain it as well as she did, but that is basically what I have done with my dogs.  Some dogs more than others.  I have 2 Labs a Golden Retriever and a Saint Benard mix that previously killed chickens but now allow the chickens to be all around them without any harm.

I have been through some serious dog training classes and this was that trainers recommendation and it worked for me.


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## terrilhb

redtailgal said:
			
		

> OK, since you posted this in the open forums, I'll assume that you want to discuss it here.
> 
> I DO NOT recommend this type of training on a "regular" dog or on a dog that has aggression towards people (unless you are very skilled in handling troubled dogs).  This type of training is not for basic commands, it is to fix a problem.
> 
> The first thing you need to do is prepare yourself.  You MUST have a spine and a hard heart thru this.  You MUST be consistant. You MUST MUST MUST be consistant......otherwise you will be doing nothing more than torturing this dog.  Be prepared to feel like a total hill, and to irritate a few people.  When it gets hard and frustrating, remind yourself that this may well save this dogs life.
> 
> You will start out being overly strict and ease up as his intellect goes in the right direction.  You will need a 4-5 foot lead and a small area to confine him (a crate or a small room).  When he is in the crate or small room (or even a barn stall), he is to have NO attention. NONE.  Don't even look at him, no matter how much he may carry on.
> 
> Now, put the leash on him and either hold the lead or attach it to your body.  Where you go he goes.  Take him everywhere you can, if he is a house dog, he goes to the bathroom with you.......
> 
> Make him be calm.  If you are standing still, he must SIT.  Ask him to sit, push his bottom down and say GOOD BOY when he does. Just say Good boy, dont pet dont give a treat, say good boy and leave it at that. When he stands back up correct him.  LOUDLY. "NO! Sit!"
> 
> Dont set him up for failure....he will not be able to sit but for a few minutes at a time at first.
> 
> Use this loud correction everytime he does something you dont want him to do.  Pulling, face licking, jumping, etc.  Once you make something a NO, it must always be a NO without exception.
> 
> Stay away from the livestock with him at this point.
> 
> You'll keep him on this short leash like this for a couple days.  NO off lead time at all.  Right now, his whole world revolves around you.  NO food in the crate.....he eats only when attached to you (same thing with drinking, it's hot, so be sure to offer water frequently).
> 
> Let's talk about being LOUD.  WHen you say NO.......BOOM it out. Draw up your belly and let the word explode out.  Make the word deep and loud.  He should startle when you do it.  If not, give the lead a quick sharp tug (not hard, just enough to get his attention) or goto walmart and buy a small airhorn (they are about 5$ in the sporting goods).
> 
> The loudness is important for this type of situation.  He needs to understand that you are bigger, you are in charge, but his mind hasnt been attuned to paying attention to this yet.  As he progresses you will get softer.
> 
> 
> No affection until we reach the breaking point.  The "breaking point"........this is when the dog has began to change the mentality that got him in trouble to begin with.  Dogs reveal it in many ways, but we want a dog that is slightly afraid when he hears you go "NO" in the loud voice.  He should cringe, the tail go down, and he should IMMEDIATELY look to you.  This is your break thru moment.........as soon as he shows that little bit of fear and looks to you (he MUST LOOK TO YOU) then you should IMMEDIATELY lavish him with praise and affection.  Stop what you are doing sit down on the floor and love the snot out of that dog.
> 
> The goal is to have him understand that he has every reason to fear you, but trust you enough to not be afraid.  This will make YOU his "hero".......he is frightened and you "rescue" him with your praise.  This will, in the long run, make him more stable mentally (for when we start him with the livestock), and at the same time form a bond to you that causes him to WANT to be part of  your pack (right now, YOUR pack consists of you and your livestock, not him).  Once he wants to be part of it, we'll teach him that the livestock is part of the pack and get him to understand that YOU will assign his place in that pack.
> 
> Be patient.  Dont try to rush things.  Be firm, consistant and sound as harsh as you possibly can when you say NO.  Stand up tall and bellow it out.  Make the sound startle him every time if you can.
> 
> Do be patient.  Put him in the crate or room and ignore him when you get frustrated.......frustration renders you unable to teach and your student unable to learn.  Frustration often leads to abuse.  Dont show compassion either, until he has earned it. Compassion isnt all it's chalked up to be, esp when it enables a dog to continue down a distructive path.
> 
> I once trained a Doberman that took 6 days to reach the breaking point.  If she hadn't reached it, she would have been euth'd because she had killed several other dogs.  I was harsh,and rigid, and that dog HATED me until she reached her breaking point.  When she "broke", she went down and showed me her belly, she broke so hard.  In five minutes she was wagging her nub and licking my face.  This previous dog killer now lives in a house with 5 corgi's and gets along wonderful.  My lack of compassion was the most compassionate thing I could do for her, she would be dead if I had felt compassion for her before that point.
> 
> Your dog may not "break" as hard as this one did......just watch for the fear startle and the eyes on you.  He should show a somewhat submissive stance, even if its just a small one, be prepared to praise praise praise. NO TREATS at this point........your love and attention should be reward enough right now.
> 
> Once you get to this point on the short lead, move up to a longer lead (10-15 feet), still not going around the livestock.  He knows what you expect at this point, so YOU need to expect instant and unquestioning obedience from him.  Resort to the loud "NO" correction EACH time you dont get INSTANT obedience.  By instant obedience, I mean INSTANT.  If you say "sit" his but should be on the ground before you draw another breath. There are no exceptions and no excuses......was he too distracted to sit? Tough.  He needs to be paying attention to your voice always.  Wash he distracted by a smell? Tough.  He needs to be paying attention always.
> 
> Dont set him up for failure.....pay attention to his actions as well. If he is sniffing, say him name to gain his attention and then tell him to sit. (or what ever command you want to give him).
> 
> This next part is important. Do it carefully.
> 
> The final test before moving on to the next phase is to test (and teach) self control.  Place some meat out or a favorite toy.....something he will REALLY want.  But dont let him have it.  When he goes for it........give the NO......and tell him to wait. Praise him (no treats) for backing off.  Make him wait progressively longer each time and then tell him OK and let him have whatever it was.
> 
> THEN
> 
> Put something that he would really want but cannot have out within his reach.  A sandwich, a large piece of meat.........honestly, I like a freshly killed carcass of some sort for this step, but maybe your not comfortable with that.
> 
> Anyway, when he goes for it give the NO.......be loud and harsh and praise when he backs off (if you completed the previous step he should know to back off).  Tell him "LEAVE IT".  He will wait and go after it again telling him to "LEAVE IT, repeat the whole thing over and over until he looses interest, then and ONLY then give him a treat.  Eventually, he will learn that when he is told to "leave it" he must not even acknowledge the temptation.  He should look away from the temptation and look to you immediately.
> 
> When he is at the end of a 15 foot lead, and will obey the command "leave it" without hesitation, he is ready for the next step.......still not going around the livestock, but obeying without question OFF the lead, and learning that "'leave it" means to leave it even when you are not in site.  You'll have to set him up to fail on this part.  Leave the temptation out within reach and then leave the room.....return shortly (within 2 minutes) to find it gone and then crate him and ignore him.  The next time, try to leave it out where you can see him but he cannot see you and give that sharp correction while storming into the room.
> 
> Once you are confident in all this, esp with the "leave it' and "No" commands, let me know and we'll teach him about your livestock.  PM me to get my attention if you need to.  Ask me any questions during this process.  You may run into some obstacles, but we'll work them out.
> 
> If you start this method, you *must* see it through in a consistent fashion.  Dont make excuses for him.  If you are too tired to do it right, put him in the crate and ignore him.  No toys, no praise, no attention, and no treats except at breakthru moments, for now.
> 
> Now, I want you to understand something.  This harshness IS NOT going to be a permanent thing, you will not be spending the rest of your life with this dog feeling like a hil and a mean drill sargeant.  THe more strict, rigid and harsh you are, the quicker it will be over for him and you.  Dogs are not robots and cannot be expected to live and thrive as one.  Once he is ready, he can go back to a normal dog life.  He will quickly realize that his life is much happier when he behaves in a certain way and will act accordingly.
> 
> He may go thru a slight depression just before he breaks.  If so, you can ease up, but just slightly. Dont break down and let him see you being compassionate though.  He must earn your protection, love and compassion.  Once he earns those things from you, his whole world will revolve around you and he will be hell-bent to please you.  THIS is our goal.


Will you come help me train my dogs? That advice was awesome.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*Ok how to do without him being in the house and without a crate?*


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## bonbean01

I would get a crate...Red's advice is good...had to do this once many years ago with believe it or not...a Bichon Frise...small dog...it was that or put her down...no kidding...it was ridiculous...phoned the breeder that I bought her from and she gave me this advice and I explained it to my kids and my first loud NO made them jump...but it worked!!!!

Good luck and hope this all turns out well for you and your dog


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## redtailgal

If you can get a crate, that would be best.  Expect some hollering and expect to have to PUT him in the crate the first few times.  (hint: put a treat in the crate, without the dog seeing you put it there.  He will find the treat AFTER he is in the crate, and will become eager to crate. Another hint: each time you put the dog in the crate say "CRATE".  With the treat and the word "crate" soon enough all you will have to so is say crate)

ANyway expect some hollering. Ignore it.  Dont let him back out until he is quiet.

If you cannot get a crate, choose a bathroom or laundry room, or another smaller space where he will be SEPARATED from the family and the rest of the dogs.  (if you get a crate, be sure to place it in a SEPARATE area.......he should not see people while he is in the crate)


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## bonbean01

When I did this with my little Molly, it took only two days to see a huge difference...it was so worth it...I miss her...turned out to be one of my best dogs and she died of old age several years ago.


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## quiltnchik

Do yourself a favor and put the dog down.  Once a dog starts, they don't stop.  Sad but true...


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## Lupa Duende

i started my farm animal thing well after getting my children, dogs, and cats and it is the children who need to be reminded how NOT to play with the goats more often.
one dog, Ulysses, we just adopted last month from a rescue in Montreal.
Ulysses is a big slobbery St Bernard who has been in a kennel waiting to be adopted for six months. No idea what he was surrendered for and there is no point asking as no one tells me the WHOLE story.

Anyway. Uly was pleased to meet my other dog and the children and the husband but he really wanted to CHASE BARK at my goats, pony, and various birds. 
Uly scared the bejeezus out of them as they have ovbiously forgotten how psycho Gypsum was (our Newfie) when she met them. simply put, the farm animals had no fear and were not about to stop free-ranging even if a 200 pound two year old came running at them frothing.

with the help of a friend i had Uly submit to every bloody animal: one his back while chooks and goats were intentionally fed around him.

I tied him to my waist (since I need my hands free to clean the barn; carry buckets; wrangle children....) for the next two days excepting a twice-daily romp (while my barnyard critters are still locked up for the night) with Gypsum. 

He is a doll now.

it takes a great deal of patience but it is no where near as difficult as when children's friends come on play-dates


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## finns&fjords

Redtailgal's advice is rock-solid. I'm a long-time dog owner/groomer/breeder, and basically you are teaching your dog that you are GOD to him. Without question. We have 5 dogs; 3 Heelers, old doxie, and one busy GSP. They all live in the house together, will all slurp out a pan of leftovers together and can be trusted with all other critters-chickens, ducks, sheep, pigs and barn kitties. The exception is our pigeon that I used in training the bird dog. It's okay to chase him though Dilly just freezes, points and stares. Anyway, I'd only add that when you get to the point where it's time to set him up-when teaching "leave-it", go so far as to put the temptation on the floor so there's no doubt dog will be very tempted. I'd start with something blah, like a piece of bread, and work up to fresh meat. I can buy groceries (meat included)put in backseat with the dogs, then stop somewhere else and not worry about my bags getting raided. Hope this stays public-we can all learn!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*The problem is that he is perfect around me. Sits, stays, heals, etc. I can put a chicken on his back and he won't touch it. Can go in the goat pen with me etc. 

It's when I'm not around that he gets bad.

We decided to keep him since he does such a good job of keeping the coyotes away. We put him on a 100' overhead cable run away from the livestock.*


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