# Stunted kid growth?



## JanetM (Nov 20, 2013)

What exactly is a "stunted kid" and do these kids ever actually "grow up" or will they always be "kid size"? 

We have 2 little PET fainter wethers-8 & 9 months old and they are not growing at all...they have had worm issues and coccidia off & on the entire time we have had them. We treat them as needed for both based on fecal results. We(us & the vet) are hoping with the cold weather coming the wormload will be lessened & they will have time to build up their little immune systems by spring.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2013)

This really depends on the severity and age they had the cocci. If it was a severe case or an ongoing chronic issue than yes, it can do permanent damage and they may never be very thrifty and may be stunted. Other goats may have had a bad case of cocci, it was treated and they went on to be just fine.  They are awfully young to have had a lot of recurrence with worms and cocci.
What kind of worms did they have and what were their counts? What was the course of treatment for the cocci and also the wormload? 
Management and where they go while being treated can either help or hurt. 
Nutrition also plays a big part and can mean the difference between thriving, so/so, to unthrifty.

One thing many overlook is mites. Mites and internal parasites often go hand in hand. Foot mites (you cannot see them) live on the hoof, goats chew... which also means chewing where they step and that causes reinfection with the internal parasites.


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## JanetM (Nov 20, 2013)

The worms were barberpole-the only worm it seems they get.

The counts vary...the youngest one(Oliver) seems to be the least healthy- he seems to have no resistant built up at all to the worms(levamisole-and 10 day fecal check is always negative) and he has been treated for cocci 3x(sulmet 1cc/per lb for 5days) since we brought him home in July. The vet is thinking he was weaned too early and I know the breeder was feeding sheep minerals not goat mineral.  

The other one(Clancy) is also on his third treatment for cocci(sulmet 1cc/per lb for 5days) but he seems to be alittle more resistant to the worms and actually went about 2 1/2 months holding his own against them his worm count stayed tween under 300 and he kept good lid color until this past Sat and I noticed he had lost alittle weight & the fecal showed 1050count & cocci-but still good lid color.

What does this mean "*Management and where they go while being treated can either help or hurt.* "

I dont see alot of hoof chewing but I am more than willing to treat for mites....what and how do I do that...anything that will help.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2013)

the sulmet... how is it given? 
also is the levamisole the only anthelmintic that has been used?

As far as management- what environment are they in? 
What are they eating?

The best situation for them would be to stay in a small *dry-lot* area and not have anything to eat from the ground. In other words hay from feeders, feed from buckets. The fecal scooped up daily, area kept very clean. At this point they are continually reinfecting themselves.


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## JanetM (Nov 20, 2013)

the sulmet is give orally in the evenings.
levamisole is the one that seems to be working- cydecton was given once but didn't work...apparently the breeder we bought them from had a worm problem on her farm that she didn't tell us about until after we had already gotten the 1st goat & was back to get the 2nd-his buddy and a 2hr drive. Acutally at this point she still didn't tell us just gave us enough wormer for both goats.

They are in our back yard a fenced in area that has very little grass now but they do still graze...the hay and grain is in feeders off of the ground. Yes our vet has said it would be best to move them also but we really don't have a space to move them too...what is the smallest space they would need and be comfortable in your opinion and for how long would you think?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2013)

What is their size/weight now? you could use a 10x10 dog kennel, depending on size maybe larger.

a few thoughts here...
I believe it was _*Donnabelle *_who first posted about *Toltrazuril.*
It is off label (like most things for goats) but has proven to be extremely effective with cocci*. 
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/new-med-for-coccidiosis-toltrazuril.25992/*

I am going somewhere with this.... 

we have never had a cocci issue on our farm, never used any preventative either. In NC we had 3 seasons of rain from fall 2012- early summer 2013... it was horrible... many farms had kids dying from cocci or worms... even those with meticulous management. We know of farms that lost whole herds.
We did a preventative for the first time when we saw a few oocysts on the slide. Never had a cocci issue NEVER want one. We were also very nervous as to what was going on all around us from county to county. Anyway we acquired several goats (young kids) with_ a few_ oocysts we knew there was the possibility of a bloom. We work with several vets... I asked about the toltrazuril... I had the go ahead to use it as an off label product... when I asked why no-one has talked about this and why the vets never mention it the reality was... well it is expensive. IMO it is not expensive at all considering the way it is used. 1 dose and repeat 10 days later... then monitor. AND that is if they have cocci the disease, not really as a preventative. 
WE saw many farms using the di-methox the amprolium etc to no avail... repeating treatments over and over. 
I would ask your vet about this. We have used this now on quite a few newly acquired goats while in quarantine... by the time their quarantine is up ... nothing.

As far as the dewormer. What is the dosage and protocol? 
Are you repeating every 10 days? I would be concerned about creating superworms at this point.

What do you feed?


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## JanetM (Nov 20, 2013)

They are just right at 20-25lbs and maybe 15in tall. Now that you have mentioned pinning them up I'm thinking we can right next to the barn but it will still be in the same yard would that work or do they actually need to be in a different area? 

Also even tho they get hay in feeders I have seen them eat it off the floor in the barn-we use the same hay for bedding...is this bad too?

I will talk to my vet about the cocci medicine you mentioned.  

We do a fecal check at 10 days and if its negative we just monitor. We have 2 older goats also and thankfully have had no issues with them.

The baby goats get free choice fescue hay and medicated Noble goat feed- free choice pro manna minerals. The youngest Oliver gets a fortified b vit shot & red cell(he was very anemic a couple months ago) once a wk also. And Clancy since he actually lost a few pounds has been getting a fortified b vit shot too.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2013)

The dry lot would be best... literally dirt, so you can clean up the berries everyday. Having a catch basin under the feeder will help. In their shelter maybe pine needles or shavings would be better so they don't eat the bedding. Lespedeza hay would be good if you can find it. 
I disagree with your vet. I say that with a little humor... I use 3 vets and NONE OF THEM SEEM TO AGREE ON ANYTHING! LOL But I do get different ideas/opinions and can make decisions based on what works best for my situation. With the chronic load of worms, deworming for a minimum of 3x -10 days apart for each dose gives you a better chance of killing all stages. 

You have obviously been diligent in caring for these guys and you should be commended!  I also, with caution, want to say at 8/9 months for Myotonics- 15 tall and 20-25 lbs.... it sounds as though these guys just are not ever going to thrive. I HOPE that is not the case, but be prepared to make a judgement call on when enough is enough. All this is hard on the animal too. Emotionally it can be unbearable for the owner. Unhealthy animals can drain you emotionally, physically, and financially. Your other goats eventually will be exposed to this. A lot to consider. 

BTW - Careful with fescue- goats can build up a gradual toxicity with diets of fescue.


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## JanetM (Nov 20, 2013)

Yes its a lot to consider especially since all my goats are only pets...my vet has already told me that both of these guys were very lucky I had them that a producer did they would either have been culled or sent to market by now.

Is there anything I could give them to help build immune system or resistance?

What type of toxicity? I will have to look for Lespedeza hay in my area.

Thank you so much for all your information I really appreciate it.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 20, 2013)

I would definitely be giving them probiotics. All of the deworming and cocci meds are very hard on the gut and they need good flora to keep their rumin going strong.
They are already getting treated for the anemia and I am guessing, but when you say fortified b vit shot are you talking about the thiamine? 
I do not have any wethers, (intact bucks here only) I know their diets can be a bit tricky so as far as feeding IDK.

May not be necessary but ask your vet if he/she thinks having a mineral analysis would be worth it. This will give you all levels and help to see if there are other deficiencies at this point.

Not too expensive here... we go through our state lab, we lost our chemist so it goes up to PA and the cost is $35.

Lespedeza, pine bark, acorns all have tannins that help reduce the effects of the barberpole. They are not a dewormer per se but they coat the worms and the coating prevents reproduction as well as feeding so the worms eventually die off.

Lespedeza grows wild here I bet it does in GA too, of course it has all died off for the winter but you may find someone with hay. If you can lob off pine branches and give them the whole branch, needles with plenty of bark that will really help. Acorns are good and most goats know to not over do it but too much isn't great either.

BTW - I do get it..  we had a goat with Listeria this year... 3 long weeks of round the clock every 30 minutes giving a few cc's of water ... 6 injections daily, hand feeding leaf after leaf, keeping her upright all throught the day and night...  probios, drenches... all for an *infertile* doe! She has permanant damage but she made it through... little miss wobbly will probably live for 20 years  but she is our "pet" too and we love her. Geesh.. what we do for our animals!


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## JanetM (Nov 20, 2013)

Im glad your doe made it and if I can get these little guys just to the point being able to handle a worm load & past the cocci I really could less if they get any bigger.

Yes it has thiamine in it but it is actually the fortified vitamin B complex Im giving. The vet is hoping it will help with their immune system building and Oliver has had 2 multi-vitamin shots also.

I will be getting them a branch of pine tomorrow and seeing where I can set up pin.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 21, 2013)

I had a thought this morning... has your vet checked their heart? If they have a severe murmur (6) this can cause the goats to be generally unthrifty, anemic and have no resistance to parasites of any kind.


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## JanetM (Nov 21, 2013)

She has listened to their hearts...which you can hear murmurs correct?

Also what type of shavings(I know that cedar and pine are not good for small animals) would your recommend for bedding?...Im just going to replace all of the bedding...my big goats hardly ever eat off the barn floor but the babies go in their side & eat some there also.

A question on the worming 3x every 10days...if on the 10th day the fecal shows negative and you worm again what exactly is being killed? I know you mentioned the life cycle of the worm...so do the ones on the ground reproduce every 10 days?

Also I have been reading about herbal dewormers...apparently they make the inside of the goat an undesirable place for worms to want to be so they leave...do you have any experience with herbal dewormers or what is your opinion?


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 21, 2013)

JanetM said:


> She has listened to their hearts...which you can hear murmurs correct?
> 
> Also what type of shavings(I know that cedar and pine are not good for small animals) would your recommend for bedding?...Im just going to replace all of the bedding...my big goats hardly ever eat off the barn floor but the babies go in their side & eat some there also.
> 
> A question on the worming 3x every 10days...if on the 10th day the fecal shows negative and you worm again what exactly is being killed? I know you mentioned the life cycle of the worm...so do the ones on the ground reproduce every 10 days?



It is OK to use pine shavings.


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## JanetM (Nov 21, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:


> It is OK to use pine shavings.


 
I read in one of the other threads you use pine shavings then a layer of straw for bedding...do your goats not eat the straw?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 21, 2013)

The pine shavings are fine... the straw would also be fine normally, but since you are trying to prevent them from eating off the ground you may not want to use this right now.

When doing a fecal you may have a few eggs show up on a slide today... tomorrow 3x that. Not every fecal will show you the same count... as much as goats poop you could run a fecal on 10 stools in a day and get different #'s each time. You are really looking for overall consistancy of counts. 
The dewormer is killing different larvae stages.
No dewormer kills everything, you are looking for a 95% reduction. If you are running fecals and have a 300 count and then you are back up to 1000+ there is a problem.


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## JanetM (Nov 21, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> No dewormer kills everything, you are looking for a 95% reduction. If you are running fecals and have a 300 count and then you are back up to 1000+ there is a problem.


 
With my older boys-I was doing fecals on them every couple wks right along with the babies and their numbers stayed consistance anywhere from 0 to 750(was the highest but there was no eyelid color loss or change in behavior, and the next time the 750 was down to 200).

Clancy was also holding his own there for a while with numbers ranging from 300 to 200 to 100 to 200 with good lid color ...but then I noticed the weight loss and count was 1050 w/cocci too but the eyelid color was still good.

I am going to section off a spot & pin them up...I dont have just dirt but Im think I will put down a tarp over the grass & then shaving on top where there will be no grass showing and shaving in their barn so the only hay they have access to will be in the feeders.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 21, 2013)

JanetM said:


> I read in one of the other threads you use pine shavings then a layer of straw for bedding...do your goats not eat the straw?



Yes, that would have been me. You can use shavings and straw now too.
They will eat some of the straw about the first hour after it is put out fresh.
But, after that they leave it alone.  It is not going to contribute to your problems.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 1, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> the sulmet... how is it given?
> also is the levamisole the only anthelmintic that has been used?
> 
> As far as management- what environment are they in?
> ...


We use Cydectin pour-on orally as a dewormer and it works wonderfully. We also read several articles about copper supplement capsules. The literature I have read states that the copper particles in these capsules (about the size of "sprinkles" used in baking cakes) lodge themselves in the rumen of the goat and over a 6 month period slowly break down and give off a copper compound (probably copper sulfate) that kills stomach worms (barberpole etc...) and acts as a slow release worm med. You will still need to deworm your goats, but not as much. We haven't lost a single goat to worms since we started using this product. The brand name is Copasure and the boost in copper makes for a healthier goat with a noticeable shiny healthy hair coat. The past 2 yrs. in E. Tennessee have been brutal as far as rain and wet weather and of course the parasites and the Copasure is a wonder supplement.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2013)

Great post Goatboy 1973... many don't realize the effects of copper on parasites. Sheep aren't suppose to have copper yet they are looking into giving small amounts because of parasite issues and hoof issues. Our Jacobs sheep get exactly what our goats get, the Jacobs sheep don't have as much of a copper storage issue as other sheep. Our sheep eat off the ground.... NO parasite problems ever! well...'cept sometimes tapeworm. lots of frogs and lizards here.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 1, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Great post Goatboy 1973... many don't realize the effects of copper on parasites. Sheep aren't suppose to have copper yet they are looking into giving small amounts because of parasite issues and hoof issues. Our Jacobs sheep get exactly what our goats get, the Jacobs sheep don't have as much of a copper storage issue as other sheep. Our sheep eat off the ground.... NO parasite problems ever! well...'cept sometimes tapeworm. lots of frogs and lizards here.


Thanks SBC! I have looked at a number of all natural products to combat internal parasites to make our goats as organic as can be without actually going through all the red tape to become "Organic" per the USDA , after all, I do raise a couple of goats a year that I have slaughtered and processed and eat, so the least amount of chemicals I myself consume the better off I am.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 1, 2013)

I did not know that there was such a prevalence of tapeworms in goats. I know in cats and dogs, they get tapeworms from ingesting fleas or the larvae or eggs. So goats get tapeworms from lizards and frogs? I learn something new everyday from this website and try to, in turn, share some of my knowledge and experience with others.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 1, 2013)

The Copasure capsules we give our goats lasts 6 months per the insert literature so we will need to administer the stuff again in April 2014. This is just an added bit of insurance for the winter knowing that you as a producer have done everything you can to eliminate as much of the parasite load as possible before winter. Big parasite loads in the winter= more feed and hay= more $$$ spent and large parasite load going into Spring. This means that you will be starting off the new year (Spring) already behind as far as parasites are concerned.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2013)

Our county is at the top of the charts for copper... but we are also at the top of the charts with iron... iron binds the copper... so we have to really be careful. Giving more copper for us would not be good. With the binding issue they are not sure if it is getting stored if it is then it could cause toxicity. We send in blood for analysis but the only true way for copper is to do a biopsy... ah, no. $$$ I am puuting together all our data for some researchers at NC to look over.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 1, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Our county is at the top of the charts for copper... but we are also at the top of the charts with iron... iron binds the copper... so we have to really be careful. Giving more copper for us would not be good. With the binding issue they are not sure if it is getting stored if it is then it could cause toxicity. We send in blood for analysis but the only true way for copper is to do a biopsy... ah, no. $$$ I am puuting together all our data for some researchers at NC to look over.


Is that NC State? If so, they have a great vet school there and research center.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeah Dr L. said they'd look at it, he thinks that _molybdenum_ may be an issue.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow! That is one of the more unheard of ones as far as trace elements are concerned. Amazing how small an amt. of an element in a diet has such a great place in the big picture.


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## treeclimber233 (Dec 3, 2013)

What about giving these guys a copper bolus?


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## JanetM (Dec 3, 2013)

treeclimber233 said:


> What about giving these guys a copper bolus?


 
I have thought about that...the vet has given Oliver 2 multivitiman shots and they actually eat their loose minerals very good...I mix them with their grain(which I stay with them while they eat) & keep them out free choice loose.

Cant too much copper be bad also?

I ordered some herbal dewormer today...I'm not looking at it as a fix just more of a overall boost type of thing. And I have read that some have had good results and Im willing to try anything to help them.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 3, 2013)

Yes. Copper toxicity can happen.
check your region and /or the region he came from. Also how old is he and what is his weight? This may be on another page but I'm lazy  
http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/countydata.htm


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## JanetM (Dec 3, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes. Copper toxicity can happen.
> check your region and /or the region he came from. Also how old is he and what is his weight? This may be on another page but I'm lazy
> http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/countydata.htm


 
They are very small...Clancy is 9months and 24lbs...Oliver is 8months and 23lbs. We are in Catoosa County Ga...and the hay we get comes from here also. My older 2 goats grew fine & have no problems they seem to have a very good tolerance to worms.

I think I will check with my vet about getting some blood work done.

Are wormloads normally less in the winter(cold) months? I know here the temps were cold for a week or so and now its rainy and 40s-50s.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 3, 2013)

Unfortunately in the south, you just don't get cold enough to have much of a reduction in parasite load. You need to be in single digits for an extended period of time to have a really good reduction in parasites.

That is pretty small for those guys. Definitely quite stunted. The coccidia may have damaged their intestines so they aren't absorbing nutrients properly.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 3, 2013)

If you need the vet to do the blood draw and can't do it yourself... use the farm call time wisely LOL. I would have the mineral analysis done *AND* CAE, and Johnnes. One blood draw (2 tubes)and you can get everything run.If you can do CL too most will send CL testing to UC Davis... it is $14.50 per test out of state. If you have a good state lab it is usually pretty inexpensive. 
Get as much data as you can.... more than likely it was the coccidiosis but this info can also help you to see if certain areas need to have a little more attention etc.


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## JanetM (Dec 3, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> That is pretty small for those guys. Definitely quite stunted. The coccidia may have damaged their intestines so they aren't absorbing nutrients properly.


 
if this is the case is there any chance with age and proper nutrition this will repair itself or at least enough to have some more growth?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 3, 2013)

If the intestines were damaged badly enough, like Ksalvagno said, they will not be able to absorb the nutrients properly.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 5, 2013)

They are young so they could still could grow but I wouldn't count on them getting to be full size. But you never know, they can fool you sometimes.

I would get Replamin Plus and maybe give them like 2 or 2.5cc once a week. That has worked well for others.


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## JanetM (Dec 9, 2013)

ksalvagno said:


> They are young so they could still could grow but I wouldn't count on them getting to be full size. But you never know, they can fool you sometimes.
> 
> I would get Replamin Plus and maybe give them like 2 or 2.5cc once a week. That has worked well for others.


 
Im not really concerned with them being full sized...and honestly I would even be ok with them staying just like they are as long as they are healthy and can hold their own.

I have gotten some herbal dwormer and gi soother from Fir Meadows I am going to start them on(the vet said it wouldnt hurt but there is "general agreement they dont help") and they get weekly foritifed B vitamin injections and Oliver gets red cell.

The Replamin Plus would be ok to add to their weekly routine correct? and I would still offer loose minerals correct?


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## ksalvagno (Dec 10, 2013)

Yes, you can add that and still offer minerals.

I have seen some good things with the herbs. You do have to follow instructions. Herb must be given more frequently than typical chemical dewormers.


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