# Our LGD Journey



## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Preface: This is a long story that is not over yet.  I will split up what has happened so far and update as we go.  We love our LGDs and are always learning from them and about them.  

*****

Our first LGD we acquired as a pup, a male named Shep who was 3 months old.  We were looking for a maremma, but settled on Shep because he was said to be half maremma and half Great Pyrenees and was raised with chickens.  When we went to pick him up he was actually sleeping in the chicken house and didn't want to leave.  




Being new to LGDs and raising mostly poultry, this seemed ideal to us.  We brought him in at night as our coyotes are quite large and we had no mature LGDs to keep him safe or show him the ropes.  We spend every moment with him attached to us at the hip.  We fed chickens with him.  We did parameter walks around the edge of the property with him.  

We knew he would need backup as soon as possible and we were really set on getting a maremma to pair with him so when a working registered litter became available just a few hours away from us, we got him a buddy.  Her name was Lana.  We had her just a few days when we realized that something was not quite right with her.  She was just a few months old, but bit us all and wouldn't release.  She bit the crown of my head while I was bent over a task.  She bit several of my fingers until blood dripped down them.  She charged and bit my chest.  She was happy go lucky and very attached to me and to Shep, but would drop her head and spread her legs in the front and growl in a split second before lunging to bite someone.  Shep still adored her and would watch over her while she slept, but he was fearful of approaching her and she was half his size.  When she bit Shep on the face and left puncture wounds (that would take a few months to completely heal up) the breeder offered to take her back and we accepted.  She is still there under her parents' supervision and is said to be doing well.  


 



Shep was now 6 months old and very sad to be buddy-less.  In this lull of loneliness and boredom, he realized that if he ran into the chicken flock they would flap and scatter.  We made the decision to move him to the fenced in pasture that surrounds the chicken yard so that they were safe from his youthful games and he could continue to observe them.  We continued to take him in on a tether when we tended to the birds.  One duck thought it would be a good idea to visit his side of the fence and did not survive the experience.  We made it clear how disappointed we were with his handling of the duck.  Shep wouldn't look at me for a full day.  (He did this again later with a chicken and hasn't again since.)


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Meanwhile I had been keeping an eye out for another potential companion for him.  *Before I share how that all came to be, I will say that looking back, we feel incredibly lucky.  It very easily could have gone much differently, but it didn't. *

I first saw a post about Annie in an LGD group on Facebook.  Her first owner had posted asking for help and advice as Annie was a maturing female said to be half maremma, half GP and the adult female in her pack decided she had to go.  Looking back at other posts about her, she had been attacked in November by the older female dog and again several times between then and in March when I saw the post that her owner wanted to rehome Annie and try to work with the older dog as she knew the older dog would be put down if surrendered or adopted to someone else.  Looking for a female, I asked where she was located and wished her luck when she told me she was in New Mexico as I am in Ohio.  Annie's owner at the time was not deterred by the distance between us and offered to make the trip if we wanted to give her a shot.  She sent me a few photos...



 


...and said Annie was starting to have the confidence to go after coyotes, was an escape artist, and was great with her large stock, but hadn't been proven with poultry.  We thought about it for a bit, and decided to give her a shot.  Her owner called from Oklahoma and said Annie had developed a limp on the trip.

She got to Ohio early April.  One front leg was shaved where she'd just had her most recent stitches out and the other had some scabs from a new squabble.  My heart sank when I saw she wasn't using her back left leg at all.  She was scared about the whole situation and her fur was full of desert sand.




I was proud of how respectful Shep was of her.  Although half her age, he outweighed her and was already taller than her.  Being a pup, he really wanted to play with her, but she just wasn't up for it.

My vet got her in that afternoon and the lady said she would be sticking around for a while to make sure it worked out.  The vet said torn CCL was likely, but found fresh bite wounds on that same back knee that were likely gotten right before her trip across the country that her first owner was not aware of.  We really needed a buddy to work with Shep, but not a huge vet bill for a dog we just met.  We weren't sure what to do.

And then she started to blossom.  And eat.  And heal.  Her leg regained full use within about a week.  And she bonded to us in a way that was unexpected and beautiful.


 

 



We had doubts that there was something else in her and wanted to see what her deal was and make sure we were going to be able to work "with" her genetics and decided to do an embark dna on her and Shep both.  Turns out we were surprised with both of them.  She is roughly 40% maremma, 30% GP, and 30% anatolian shepherd.  Shep came back 100% GP.  Not what we expected, but we could work with this.

Not being experts at this, the only way we knew to start with her was to do like we would with a puppy.  Love them, have expectations of them, trust them with responsibilities a bit at a time, and give them freedoms as they prove they're ready.  Annie joined Shep on parameter walks on Day 1. She was sensitive to his cues and although cautious at first, she wanted to work with him.





She went with me to check on the poultry on a lead and was calm and steady.  I looked up soon after we got her and saw that she had wiggled in to visit the ducks.  I held my breath as I tried to walk calmly toward them, hoping that all would be well when I reached them.  Nothing happened.  She has a thing for duck eggs, we realized, but was happy to just lie down near them and watch over them.



 



The one thing we realized was not going to happen, and we wished that it would.... Annie was never going to correct Shep when he wanted to play with the birds.  A consequence of him being on her team?  We appreciate that they get along so well, and do believe that Annie's example with the birds has been very helpful to Shep.  The time he chose to play with a flyover bird, she came to bark at the windows of the house, but she doesn't step in.

All in all, we feel like we should be ultra grateful for her help to us and her gentle companionship to Shep.


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

I love hearing others LGD stories!


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Baymule said:


> I love hearing others LGD stories!


Thanks for reading!  I do as well!


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Mid-summer, Shep is growing up and living his best life with his new buddy Annie.  We start to notice the side of his jaw is a little bit sloped to one side and where his baby teeth vacated space, there are no adult teeth on one side. 

We start to see the dog vet, then another, then our farm vet took a look at him... no one had ever seen anything like it.  So the search begins to sort out what is going on with our toothless tiger. 

The current theory is craniomandibular osteopathy.  Basically, his jaw bones seemed to swell during his development and didn't fully form or form correctly.  Now we're uncertain what he will be able to do or not do.  His jawline on one side is ultra thin and he's missing important teeth.  



 

Even on the "good" side his teeth are crumbling and falling out.  





The current plan is to allow him to finish developing and take xrays.  We love him to bits and fortunately have puppy health insurance on him that I've never got in the past, but expected that they might get into scrapes here and there and that it might end up being useful.   

Now our question is whether or not we should add a third dog.  And if we do, how soon or how long should we wait?  

We expected challenges with training and those have been surmountable.  We didn't expect the negative outcome with the crazy maremma pup or with Shep's genetics.  We didn't expect the very positive outcome with Annie's poultry tending skills.  We haven't had a dull moment on our journey with LGDs and we've loved (just about) every minute of it.


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

Oh dear. That is a diagnosis nobody wants to hear. A big barking dog that eats soft food, may still make a valuable LGD. Unless his jaw itself disintegrates. Poor Shep. 

I don’t envy you a hard decision you may have to make, hopefully not.


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Oh dear. That is a diagnosis nobody wants to hear. A big barking dog that eats soft food, may still make a valuable LGD. Unless his jaw itself disintegrates. Poor Shep.
> 
> I don’t envy you a hard decision you may have to make, hopefully not.


Yes, hopefully not.  Just taking it a day at a time.  They told us if he really goes after something his jaw could snap.   He loves chasing raccoons and anything really that shouldn't be there.  We know the day could come when we have tough calls to make, but we hope the situation with this jaw takes a turn for the better.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 21, 2021)

Wow, it's usually the hips!  I'm sure you love them both.   Sure hoping things work ok for Shep.   Annie seems to have worked well.   Then, you have this new pup in mind.  That's brave and love.


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## AgnesGray (Dec 22, 2021)

Mini Horses said:


> Wow, it's usually the hips!  I'm sure you love them both.   Sure hoping things work ok for Shep.   Annie seems to have worked well.   Then, you have this new pup in mind.  That's brave and love.


Thank you  We'll see how it goes.  It is definitely the hips you hear about.  Ofa testing, etc wouldn't have helped us on this one.  

If anyone has pointers for choosing #3, I'd be happy to hear them.  Our criteria for now is that he be male as Annie likes to be the only lady in town.


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## Baymule (Dec 22, 2021)

I had a female Great Pyrenees that also wanted to be the only lady, had to keep her and Sheba separated. Paris went to that green pasture in the sky in October. Sheba is now the reigning Queen. But I have 3 males, Sentry (Anatolian) hates the other two. Sigh….. dog drama! 

Sentry has hip dysphasia. He underwent Femoral Head Ostectomy surgery. Can’t tell it now.


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## AgnesGray (Dec 22, 2021)

Baymule said:


> I had a female Great Pyrenees that also wanted to be the only lady, had to keep her and Sheba separated. Paris went to that green pasture in the sky in October. Sheba is now the reigning Queen. But I have 3 males, Sentry (Anatolian) hates the other two. Sigh….. dog drama!
> 
> Sentry has hip dysphasia. He underwent Femoral Head Ostectomy surgery. Can’t tell it now.


Oh, how wonderful!  It's amazing what they're able to do through surgery nowadays.  

You're right... always some dog drama!   We love their spunk though.  haha


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## bethh (Dec 29, 2021)

AgnesGray said:


> Mid-summer, Shep is growing up and living his best life with his new buddy Annie.  We start to notice the side of his jaw is a little bit sloped to one side and where his baby teeth vacated space, there are no adult teeth on one side.
> 
> We start to see the dog vet, then another, then our farm vet took a look at him... no one had ever seen anything like it.  So the search begins to sort out what is going on with our toothless tiger.
> 
> ...


I hope that Shep will be okay.  We had a health issue fairly soon starting out with our LGD.   If neither of your dogs have been fixed, I’d suggest that you have Shep fixed so that you don’t breed his genetic issues.   Our Chewy was born with genetic heart problems, term evades me, after an accidental breeding, we had to spay our female because Chewy wasn’t strong enough to withstand surgery.   

Just in case you had t thought of this, I wanted you to know.


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## AgnesGray (Dec 29, 2021)

bethh said:


> I hope that Shep will be okay.  We had a health issue fairly soon starting out with our LGD.   If neither of your dogs have been fixed, I’d suggest that you have Shep fixed so that you don’t breed his genetic issues.   Our Chewy was born with genetic heart problems, term evades me, after an accidental breeding, we had to spay our female because Chewy wasn’t strong enough to withstand surgery.
> 
> Just in case you had t thought of this, I wanted you to know.


Awe, poor Chewy!  How is he doing now? 

We did spay Annie in November for that reason.  I had hoped to have a litter from her that we could keep a pup from as she's been such a great dog.  But we agree with you about not wanting to breed forward defects so we spayed her.  Also wanted him to finish growing before we neutered him which was another reason we chose to fix her instead.


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## Ridgetop (Dec 30, 2021)

It is such a shame that your male has s genetic flaw that is such a problem.  Having a delicate jaw is bad in any dog but in a LGD it is really a problem.  

I applaud your choice in neutering your dogs.  So many good LGDs are available that spay and neuter is a good choice for working dogs.  Unless you have enough working LGDs to cover your ranch protection, breeding takes a bitch out of the protection work pool for at least 3 months.  Not to mention the time she comes in season each year.

We have 3 purebred Anatolians, ages 9, 5, and 3 years.  Both bitches are  spayed and we are considering neutering the male.  The one we spayed that I regret is Harika.  Exquisite conformation, perfect guardian technique, perfect with newborns and new mamas, and she is a good trainer for the other Anatolians too.     The youngest LGD bitch was spayed because we were unable to get papers on her.  She is out of an import that the Anatolian society refused to register.  Beautiful bitch and excellent worker.  We have a gorgeous male Anatolian, also a spectacular guardian.  He is out of Harika's littermate.  He has been collected and I could neuter him now, but am waiting for a while.  We will be buying our 4th Anatolian this summer, another female.  

Love our Anatolians.  We had 5 Pyrs, and while we liked their temperaments, I found Pyrs roamed and were impossible for us to keep inside our perimeter fencing.  Anatolians are very dominant, and you have to be watchful of temperament, but they stay with their flock, and are aggressive against predators and intruders.  They are wonderful with our small grandchildren too.  We have raised our 5' perimeter fences and along the road we have wrought iron fencing with deadbolts on the gates.  This is not only to keep the dogs in, but to prevent stupid people from walking into our yard and confronting an angry Anatolian that doesn't like trespassers!

Good luck in finding a good LGD.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 1, 2022)

Thank you!  

It is unfortunate that it turned out this way with Shep's jaw.  I guess being new to this when we got him, we were unsure of whether or not to bring him in and I'm glad we did, considering the way it's going.  

You mentioned spaying working females to keep them on the job.  Three weeks of keeping her and Shep apart was enough fun.  Can't imagine 3 months.  

Sounds like you have a wonderful pack!  To be good with grandkids as well as their jobs is really the ideal dog.  🥰
It's incredible that anyone would trespass on a property with three Anatolians though. 

We were a little intimidated by Anatolians when we first started looking into getting LGDs.  Shep is a big teddy bear unless he really feels threatened.  He has been so easy on us and we love him dearly, whatever his purpose in our lives ends up being.  Annie though... her noble loyalty is so beautiful and she has worked her way into our hearts with her antics and funny personality.  Her fierceness in the face of a threat is downright terrifying if you're not expecting it.  She's fearless.  She seems to have a lot of the Anatolian personality traits from what I read after we got her DNA back.  After our experience with her, we will seriously consider an Anatolian for our third dog if we find a good one near us.  I have never had such an intensely loyal dog.


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## Ridgetop (Jan 9, 2022)

We had the same worries about switching to Anatolians after our years with easy natured Pyrenees.  Our Pyrs were easy with people not with predators.  LOL

Having constant back up from Erick Conard, our breeder and friend, was the only thing that kept me going some days.  He was always there at the end of the phone to help with encouragement, suggestions, and corrections in training.  Having backup from people that know the breed, and the problems you are experiencing, and can give you help is essential with Anatolians.  I wrote a series of 4 articles for the Anatolian Times about getting our first Anatolian.  It required intense work.  Even though I got a perfectly trained Anatolian, Harika, I would have given up on Anatolians due to the problems we had introducing her to our other dogs.  Next, we got Bubba at 14 weeks.   More crazy trouble, different but harder, in training him!  Another series of articles will be going off to the Anatolian Times about our experiences there.  Angel's problems were dealt with more easily because we had been through them before. She had more puppy/sheep play problems than Bubba. Another series of articles?


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## AgnesGray (Jan 11, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> We had the same worries about switching to Anatolians after our years with easy natured Pyrenees.  Our Pyrs were easy with people not with predators.  LOL
> 
> Having constant back up from Erick Conard, our breeder and friend, was the only thing that kept me going some days.  He was always there at the end of the phone to help with encouragement, suggestions, and corrections in training.  Having backup from people that know the breed, and the problems you are experiencing, and can give you help is essential with Anatolians.  I wrote a series of 4 articles for the Anatolian Times about getting our first Anatolian.  It required intense work.  Even though I got a perfectly trained Anatolian, Harika, I would have given up on Anatolians due to the problems we had introducing her to our other dogs.  Next, we got Bubba at 14 weeks.   More crazy trouble, different but harder, in training him!  Another series of articles will be going off to the Anatolian Times about our experiences there.  Angel's problems were dealt with more easily because we had been through them before. She had more puppy/sheep play problems than Bubba. Another series of articles?


I think a good breeder like that is essential, whatever the breed.  Although he's been a pretty easy dog, after all of the health problems with Shep (who wasn't cheap anyway) and then the unhinged registered maremma pup, we really want to get our next dog from a breeder that has a history and not only raises healthy dogs, but puts the time into them to know their pups and curb those early behavioral issues before they get to us.  Maybe even more (or as much) important as the breed is the breeder?


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## Ridgetop (Jan 11, 2022)

*Definitely the breeder is paramount!  *Having luckily found the wonderful breeder of Anatolians who has helped us with every problem we have encountered, I know that the right breeder is as important as the right dog.  In spite of having had many Pyrenees and a cross LGD, without this breeder we would probably have given up on Anatolians. Instead, they are our breed of choice as long as we have livestock.  They are not an easy dog.  They are highly dominant, both bitches and males.  Unless you have help in understanding the minds of LGDs you can have problems.  They are not like other breeds of dogs.  To me a good LGD is so different as to be almost another species.

A reputable breeder will be recommended by several sources who know their dogs and have had good experiences with them.  A reputable breeder will have repeat buyers and usually a waiting list for pups.  The waiting list is because the reputable breeder is not a puppy mill and does not turn out litter after litter. They restrict themselves to one or two litters per year, which means that repeat buyers wanting one of the puppies from their good breeding will have to book one in advance.  

The reputable breeder tests their dogs for hips, elbows, and any other congenital abnormalities in the breed.  They are particular about which sire to use on which bitch to ensure good working ability, conformation and temperament.  (More about conformation later.)  The reputable breeder has a take back policy which will require you to return the dog if it does not work out for you.  The reputable breeder will often have a contract that puts all health guarantees and working guarantees in writing.  

Some breeders are only interested in the breed ring.  Those are not the breeders you want. While many are reputable and do the testing I listed, they are not as interested in the dog as a working dog.  This is true of many breeds that excel in the show ring and have lost much of their ability to guard livestock, hunt, or herd.  They make wonderful pets and excellent show dogs with excellent health and temperament, but these are not the breeders you want either.  

When looking for a specific working dog, you need to get recommendations to breeders that produce dogs that can herd, guard or hunt.  Some of these excellent breeders both show and work their dogs.  Some of these reputable breeders don't show themselves but have dogs that do with other owners.  And some of the reputable breeders are only interested in the working abilities of their dogs.  These are the breeders you want.

Next, you want a breeder that does not put you off with a lack of interest in discussing the breed with you.  Particularly you want the breeder that discusses the breeds' worst proclivities and discusses the training needed to avoid any problems.  The BEST BREEDERS are those that are always available to help you with training.  On the other hand, if you ignore the training suggestions, after a while even those excellent breeders will have to wash their hands of you.  There are some people that ask for help but are not willing to follow the instructions.  These people can ruin a good dog of any breed.

I previously mentioned conformation and showing.  While conformation is most highly valued in the dog show world, do not discount it in your working dog.  Proper conformation of any animal in any species is necessary to allow that animal to work properly.  Meat animals are built differently from dairy animals and have different conformation requirements for a reason.  It is the same with dogs.  

The conformation of a working guardian dog needs strength in the bones and muscles.  Cow hocks or narrow front will impede working ability.  The width and depth of chest allows enough room for the lungs and allows the dog to take in enough air to breath while chasing predators or fighting them off.  Cow hocks will cut down on the dogs walking and running ability over time.  Heavy bone and size as opposed to small, lightly built dogs enable the guardian to withstand larger predators.  However, too heavily built and the dog loses its maneuverability in a strength of the bite and agility of the guardian fight.  If you look at your guardian dogs, you will see a slightly roached back behind the ribcage.  This gives the guardian incredible speed (consider the way sight hounds are built).  A strongly muscled jaw is essential to fight off predators.  Usually, the size of the guardian and its constant patrol and barking challenge is enough to protect, but in a fight the strength of the bite and agility of body can mean life or death to both flock and guardian.  

Temperament is also key in selection.  Do you require a friendly dog because you have a lot of visitors to the farm?  Do you want a more aggressive dog due to type of predator, or your need for more protection in an isolated area.  Do you need something for specific livestock.  Poultry?  Rabbits?  Small livestock?  Home and ranch general guardian?  These are all things that the reputable and knowledgeable breeder can select for you in the litter of puppies.  The knowledgeable breeder knows their dogs.  The experienced ones know what puppy traits to select for in the adult dog.  The knowledgeable working LGD breeder will be able to select the pup with the qualities you need among those adorable fluff balls.  

Just as every breed has different techniques of guarding, so does each puppy in the litter have a variation of how they will guard.  The reputable breeder will be there to help you over each training hurdle (and there will be many) to produce the perfect guardian.

It is a shame about your male's jaw problems.  Your female is working well though and he can be back up for her you might not have problems with his jaw for many years.  if you have a bad predator problem, I would recommend that you find another female Anatolian when your bitch turns 2 or 3.   Anatolian males will not tolerate other males, but Anatolian females will tolerate other females if they are several years apart.  Oddly neither sex will tolerate same age dogs of the same sex.  Even littermates raised together will begin to fight when they reach 2 years old.  This seems to be specific to Anatolians.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Jan 11, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> a breeder that has a history and not only raises healthy dogs, but puts the time into them to know their pups and curb those early behavioral issues before they get to us. Maybe even more (or as much) important as the breed is the breeder?


OFA is very easy to navigate these days, use it to your advantage!!! https://www.ofa.org/


Ridgetop said:


> *Definitely the breeder is paramount!  *Having luckily found the wonderful breeder of Anatolians who has helped us with every problem we have encountered, I know that the right breeder is as important as the right dog.  In spite of having had many Pyrenees and a cross LGD, without this breeder we would probably have given up on Anatolians. Instead, they are our breed of choice as long as we have livestock.  They are not an easy dog.  They are highly dominant, both bitches and males.  Unless you have help in understanding the minds of LGDs you can have problems.  They are not like other breeds of dogs.  To me a good LGD is so different as to be almost another species.
> 
> A reputable breeder will be recommended by several sources who know their dogs and have had good experiences with them.  A reputable breeder will have repeat buyers and usually a waiting list for pups.  The waiting list is because the reputable breeder is not a puppy mill and does not turn out litter after litter. They restrict themselves to one or two litters per year, which means that repeat buyers wanting one of the puppies from their good breeding will have to book one in advance.
> 
> ...


Stole the words out of my mouth!!


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## Finnie (Jan 12, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> *Definitely the breeder is paramount!  *Having luckily found the wonderful breeder of Anatolians who has helped us with every problem we have encountered, I know that the right breeder is as important as the right dog.  In spite of having had many Pyrenees and a cross LGD, without this breeder we would probably have given up on Anatolians. Instead, they are our breed of choice as long as we have livestock.  They are not an easy dog.  They are highly dominant, both bitches and males.  Unless you have help in understanding the minds of LGDs you can have problems.  They are not like other breeds of dogs.  To me a good LGD is so different as to be almost another species.
> 
> A reputable breeder will be recommended by several sources who know their dogs and have had good experiences with them.  A reputable breeder will have repeat buyers and usually a waiting list for pups.  The waiting list is because the reputable breeder is not a puppy mill and does not turn out litter after litter. They restrict themselves to one or two litters per year, which means that repeat buyers wanting one of the puppies from their good breeding will have to book one in advance.
> 
> ...


😍😍😍😍😍!!!!!


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## AgnesGray (Jan 12, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> *Definitely the breeder is paramount!  *Having luckily found the wonderful breeder of Anatolians who has helped us with every problem we have encountered, I know that the right breeder is as important as the right dog.  In spite of having had many Pyrenees and a cross LGD, without this breeder we would probably have given up on Anatolians. Instead, they are our breed of choice as long as we have livestock.  They are not an easy dog.  They are highly dominant, both bitches and males.  Unless you have help in understanding the minds of LGDs you can have problems.  They are not like other breeds of dogs.  To me a good LGD is so different as to be almost another species.
> 
> A reputable breeder will be recommended by several sources who know their dogs and have had good experiences with them.  A reputable breeder will have repeat buyers and usually a waiting list for pups.  The waiting list is because the reputable breeder is not a puppy mill and does not turn out litter after litter. They restrict themselves to one or two litters per year, which means that repeat buyers wanting one of the puppies from their good breeding will have to book one in advance.
> 
> ...


It was a pleasure to read this.  While these two are our first LGD working dogs, years ago I worked with working Newfies.  They did water rescue and there was a significant amount of swimming and training exercises at the lake every week and they also were champions in the ring.  They also rode in helicopters and assisted in many actual rescues as the area where we lived had many mountain lakes.  Their hips were scanned and they were bred for being the best on all counts.  They were such a joy!  




Ridgetop said:


> Next, you want a breeder that does not put you off with a lack of interest in discussing the breed with you.  Particularly you want the breeder that discusses the breeds' worst proclivities and discusses the training needed to avoid any problems.  The BEST BREEDERS are those that are always available to help you with training.  On the other hand, if you ignore the training suggestions, after a while even those excellent breeders will have to wash their hands of you.  There are some people that ask for help but are not willing to follow the instructions.  These people can ruin a good dog of any breed.




We went into this with that background, but we didn't find any registered dogs that worked on a level that would help them work with us. When I responded to a few ads, most of the people I contacted shot me a price and didn't want to get into details.  Shep's owner was the first person who told me if I was serious she wanted to have a conversation, which encouraged me.  She not only wanted to know all about us and our setup, but also knew every one of her pups.  And he was born to parents who protect goats and was sleeping in the chicken house.  *sigh*  He's always got a place with us (and I'm so glad we brought him inside as a pup), but he isn't going to be what we got him to be, obviously.  

We had a few bumps with him when he was a teen with the birds but he wants so much to be approved of that he skulked around for a day after we "had words" about it.  His training has really been the least troublesome part of having him around surprisingly.  They really are like a whole different species, but we've always been able to work the issues out.  Newfs are similarly independent thinkers and stubborn a mile wide so maybe that helped a bit with working with these guys.  

I do wonder though, how would his genetic issue or propensity for such issues be picked up?  When we embark tested them, it suggested a genetic propensity for collie eye, but nothing about craniomandibular osteopathy or any other development issues.  Is there a way to know about this kind of thing ahead of time?  @Cecilia's-herd  OFA is great, but if my understanding of it is correct, it's only going to evaluate hips.  Is that correct? 

We've been on a waiting list with a breeder that has shipped dogs to more than 40 states and raises a mix of what are said to be high-quality dogs.  My turn has come up and I am hesitant at pulling the trigger.  I know she thinks I am wishy-washy, but once burned twice shy (or something like that?).  



Ridgetop said:


> Temperament is also key in selection.  Do you require a friendly dog because you have a lot of visitors to the farm?  Do you want a more aggressive dog due to type of predator, or your need for more protection in an isolated area.  Do you need something for specific livestock.  Poultry?  Rabbits?  Small livestock?  Home and ranch general guardian?  These are all things that the reputable and knowledgeable breeder can select for you in the litter of puppies.  The knowledgeable breeder knows their dogs.  The experienced ones know what puppy traits to select for in the adult dog.  The knowledgeable working LGD breeder will be able to select the pup with the qualities you need among those adorable fluff balls.


We don't have tons of visitors and when we do, they don't belong in with the animals (unless it's the farm vet, at which point we put the dog in).  We don't need one of the more aggressive breeds, I think, as our largest predator is our brush coyotes (coyotes that have bred with stray dogs) and in our area, they're about the size of Annie or an average size german shepherd.  Rarely do they come in a pack although my neighbor has seen them in packs of 6 or so.  

In our case, we keep LGDs for our poultry.  We raise truely free range pastured poultry right in the middle of coyote and eagle country and have yet to lose a bird to them, but don't plan to start.  I read a few books when we got started and had settled on maremmas, but the one that we got that was full bred maremma was a nut job.  I would definitely try again with them, but am considering AS and GP when the time comes around again after that experience.  Would probably also consider karakachan.  



Ridgetop said:


> It is a shame about your male's jaw problems.  Your female is working well though and he can be back up for her you might not have problems with his jaw for many years.  if you have a bad predator problem, I would recommend that you find another female Anatolian when your bitch turns 2 or 3.   Anatolian males will not tolerate other males, but Anatolian females will tolerate other females if they are several years apart.  Oddly neither sex will tolerate same age dogs of the same sex.  Even littermates raised together will begin to fight when they reach 2 years old.  This seems to be specific to Anatolians.


Annie is 2... will be 3 this year.  The dog she was fighting with in her last home was a 3 year older than her GP female.  Her back knee injuries are what made our vet think she had a torn CCL, not sure if I mentioned that in my original post about her.  She had the stitches out of one of her front legs the week before she got to us and the other front leg had had stitches a few months prior.  She may be fine with a younger female, but she is pretty particular with female dogs.  We never allow her to see or be in contact with our female house dog after their initial meeting that didn't go great and we decided to choose our battles and that this one wasn't worth it.  She is only part AS though so many of her traits will be from the maremma and GP in her.  

I really appreciate your reply.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 12, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Even littermates raised together will begin to fight when they reach 2 years old. This seems to be specific to Anatolians.



I have considered a full toli female, having such an issue with her sister.  The farm is rehoming due just to this fact!   Tested, trained with goats, horses, cats, house and truck....sounds great EXCEPT...there's that word 😟....bad with a flock.    My chickens free range!!    So disappointing.  And a beautiful girl.    I just couldn't move her and have that issue added to her stress.   😢  Not wanting to delete my chickens.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 12, 2022)

Mini Horses said:


> I have considered a full toli female, having such an issue with her sister.  The farm is rehoming due just to this fact!   Tested, trained with goats, horses, cats, house and truck....sounds great EXCEPT...there's that word 😟....bad with a flock.    My chickens free range!!    So disappointing.  And a beautiful girl.    I just couldn't move her and have that issue added to her stress.   😢  Not wanting to delete my chickens.


That's exactly how we got Annie.  She had only been around cooped chickens though.  I think it happens a lot between females especially.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Jan 12, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> ? @Cecilia's-herd OFA is great, but if my understanding of it is correct, it's only going to evaluate hips. Is that correct?


Nope! You can register almost any genetic testing on OFA. Look for hips, elbows, patellas, eyes, ears, ect. CEA is one I always look for.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 12, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> Nope! You can register almost any genetic testing on OFA. Look for hips, elbows, patellas, eyes, ears, ect. CEA is one I always look for.


That's great!  We were in Europe when we were involved with Newfies and many things are different here about that.  

I don't suppose any of the tests will show what Shep has, but it's nice that there is more than hips in the testing for breeders who participate.


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## Ridgetop (Jan 12, 2022)

It is more probable that his jaw malformation is just that, a one-time abnormality rather than a known genetic condition.  With a health guarantee the breeder might have spotted the problem or would have replaced him since the vet found it while he was a puppy.  But often people are reluctant to give up the dog with the problem.  Since that abnormality/malformation would be a problem in his guarding job the breeder might still replace him.  Did you discuss the problem with them?

As far as the genetic testing with hips, elbows, etc. (in some breeds eyes) it is important that the dog not be from parents with bad hips, etc. since they will not be able to perform their jobs properly for very long.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 12, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> It is more probable that his jaw malformation is just that, a one-time abnormality rather than a known genetic condition.  With a health guarantee the breeder might have spotted the problem or would have replaced him since the vet found it while he was a puppy.  But often people are reluctant to give up the dog with the problem.  Since that abnormality/malformation would be a problem in his guarding job the breeder might still replace him.  Did you discuss the problem with them?
> 
> As far as the genetic testing with hips, elbows, etc. (in some breeds eyes) it is important that the dog not be from parents with bad hips, etc. since they will not be able to perform their jobs properly for very long.


We would have been reluctant to give him up.  We love him dearly and he will always have a place with us in return for his heart being in the right place with wanting to look after us.  He is a very gentle "old soul" kind of dog and looks after us in his way.  

When it became apparent that something wasn't right with him, I reached out first to his breeder.  She seemed taken aback and had no idea (same as us) what might be going on with him.  She asked me to update her which I have done.  She told me that she's glad that we are the ones who got him as it's evident that I'm not going to dump him over this, but no guarantees were given to us regarding his health so I guess I don't expect (and wasn't offered) any replacement.  Would have been a nice gesture.  

At the end of the day, he is an outstanding dog.  Just taking a different path than his LGD background led us to expect from him initially.   We hope we have a long while with him.


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## Ridgetop (Jan 12, 2022)

Since your Anatolian bitch is more than capable of dealing with individual predator threats he will probably not ever be in a situation where he will have to fight and injure his jaw.  Two Anatolians issuing loud threats is usually enough to keep coyotes and stray dogs away.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 13, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Since your Anatolian bitch is more than capable of dealing with individual predator threats he will probably not ever be in a situation where he will have to fight and injure his jaw.  Two Anatolians issuing loud threats is usually enough to keep coyotes and stray dogs away.


I hope that's the case! I probably worry too much. ❤


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## Ridgetop (Jan 13, 2022)

Unless you have an instance of suddenly increased predator load (like us after the terrible California fires several years ago), or large predators like cougar and bear, you are probably fine.  His size and presence with your female will be intimidation enough.  Don't worry.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 13, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Unless you have an instance of suddenly increased predator load (like us after the terrible California fires several years ago), or large predators like cougar and bear, you are probably fine.  His size and presence with your female will be intimidation enough.  Don't worry.


That must have been awful for so many reasons.  My brother lived in Cali at the time and for many years.  Can't imagine the added worry about livestock and the fires.  

Fortunately, we have no cougar or bear.  What sent my worries into overdrive was a recent encounter with a raccoon.  To be fair, he was a pretty big boy, but still a raccoon, not a coyote or coyote mix.  Annie went to the stock and Shep went after the coon, no fear or hesitation.  He looked like he'd lived his whole young life to get to handle that situation.  He was in his element.  Except he couldn't seem to dispatch him for reasons obvious to us, but not to him.  The coon barely missed his eye and bit him on the face and leg.  We heard the noise and resolved the issue, but we wondered how it would go had it been something larger and if we hadn't been there to step in.  And although Annie has the Anatolian spirit, she is so tiny.  

I do think we're going to allow him to finish growing before making a decision.  I would love to add a third dog just to provide extra support to them, but I don't want to grow too fast too quickly either.  It's just not a clear yes/no to me, you know?

Shep wasn't phased at all by his injuries.   He wasn't actually licking his wounds here; he was chewing on a treat we gave him for his efforts.  😆


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## Ridgetop (Jan 13, 2022)

The separation of the dogs - one to attack and drive off the predator and the other falling back to provide a rear guard to the stock is typical behavior in a pair.  Excellent to hear about dogs working well together.  Once Annie gets more growth on her she maybe the ne to go forward while he falls back, although it appears they have delegated their duties themselves.  This is guardian behavior that cannot be taught by humans.  

Don't figure raccoons are too small to be dangerous.  Male raccoons can get up to 50 lbs. which is the size of many of our coyotes here.   They have nasty fangs and are vicious antagonists.  While he could not dispatch the raccoon, he did send it on its way with your help.   What a brave boy.  His next fight might be more successful since he will have experience from that fight.


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## Baymule (Jan 13, 2022)

I sure understand your situation. I have an Anatolian/Akbash/Pyrenees male. At 9 months old, he had Femoral Head Ostectomy surgery for hip dysplasia. Vet said worst case in a dog that young he’d ever seen. We contemplated putting Sentry down, but just couldn’t. We gave him the chance and I’m so glad. He’s made an awesome guard dog. Big feet, deep chest, huge wise head and small stunted body. Just like you feel about Shep, Sentry was meant to be mine. We will take it one day at a time with our dogs, won’t we? 

Do the best you can, give Shep the best life you can. That’s all you can do.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 13, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> The separation of the dogs - one to attack and drive off the predator and the other falling back to provide a rear guard to the stock is typical behavior in a pair.  Excellent to hear about dogs working well together.  Once Annie gets more growth on her she maybe the ne to go forward while he falls back, although it appears they have delegated their duties themselves.  This is guardian behavior that cannot be taught by humans.
> 
> Don't figure raccoons are too small to be dangerous.  Male raccoons can get up to 50 lbs. which is the size of many of our coyotes here.   They have nasty fangs and are vicious antagonists.  While he could not dispatch the raccoon, he did send it on its way with your help.   What a brave boy.  His next fight might be more successful since he will have experience from that fight.


Would you expect Annie to still grow at her age?  The GPs we've known and had would be done by now.  Every time she's at the vet I am hopeful that she's at least put on a few pounds but she's holding steady in the low 60's since we got her.  

You're right about that coon.  He was very well fed. It took 2 large shovels to carry him away. 

I do love how they work together.  Would prefer if the roles were reversed and he stayed at home while she took the front line.  She's a little powerhouse.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 13, 2022)

Baymule said:


> I sure understand your situation. I have an Anatolian/Akbash/Pyrenees male. At 9 months old, he had Femoral Head Ostectomy surgery for hip dysplasia. Vet said worst case in a dog that young he’d ever seen. We contemplated putting Sentry down, but just couldn’t. We gave him the chance and I’m so glad. He’s made an awesome guard dog. Big feet, deep chest, huge wise head and small stunted body. Just like you feel about Shep, Sentry was meant to be mine. We will take it one day at a time with our dogs, won’t we?
> 
> Do the best you can, give Shep the best life you can. That’s all you can do.


I love hearing that about Sentry.  I think when it's meant to be they find us.  Sounds like Sentry was sure meant to be your boy.

I have to remind myself sometimes that it's a day at a time.  I will continue to ponder getting backup for Shep and Annie, but will hold off for a bit.  For now we're enjoying watching them enjoy the cold weather.  

I don't get the feeling Annie saw much weather this cold in New Mexico and she is still like a kid a Christmas every time a snowflake falls.


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## Ridgetop (Jan 16, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> Would you expect Annie to still grow at her age? The GPs we've known and had would be done by now. Every time she's at the vet I am hopeful that she's at least put on a few pounds but she's holding steady in the low 60's since we got her.


I went back and reread your post but couldn't find an age for Annie.

Livestock guardian breeds are a slow maturing group.  Both females and males usually don't finish growing until 24-30 months.  Females often don't reach sexual maturity, (enter their first season) until 10-12 months old.  LGD breeds should not be bred until at least 30 months old due to their continued growth pattern.

Maremmas are slightly smaller dogs than Pyrenees and Anatolians.  Here is the size chart from the AKC for all 3 breeds in Annie's gene pool:
                          Maremma                         Great Pyr                       Anatolian                          
Female weight   66-88 lbs.                         80-100 lbs.                     80-120 lbs.
Male weight      77-99 lbs.                         100 lb. and up               110-160 lbs.

Female height     24-27"                               25-29"                           27" and up
Male height         26-29"                               27-32"                           29" and up

As you can see, the Maremma is the smallest of the 3 breeds.  Annie's weight in the mid 60's is not unusual for a Maremma.  She would be considered small for a Great Pyr or Anatolian.  Since Annie is 40% Maremma, it is probable that her Maremma genes are controlling her size.  However, this weight and height chart is for the breed show standard.  Many older guardian dog breeders who are keeping these dogs for flock protection breed the best workers, not necessarily the largest dogs.  The best working Pyr we ever had was Sandy who was only 70 lbs.  She was fearless, quick and aggressive to predators.  Often our neighbors would watch her charge right into the middle of a coyote pack and scatter them.  While everyone thinks of the LGD as a massive dog, the best workers are not always the largest.  Along with massive size can come a loss of agility speed, and dexterity in fighting.  Breeders who aim only for size can lose the agility and speed necessary to a working flock guardian.

Throughout history the need for size in the livestock guardian breeds was based on the type of predators in the area roamed by the early shepherds.  In Turkey and the Pyrenees mountains brown bears and wolf packs were and are the main predators.  Brown bears are one of the largest bear species, fast powerful hunters.  Wolves are much larger than coyotes and hunt in packs consisting of a mated pair and their offspring of different ages.  A wolf pack normally has 6-12 members but may number as many as 20 wolves depending on the size and availability of prey.  Because of the way wolves hunt cooperatively in packs, they are the most dangerous predator and require a larger number of guardians to protect the flock and shepherds.  Larger LGDs are necessary to drive off bears, and multiple member packs of wolves.  In Italy, the original breeding ground of the Maremma LGD, wolves were smaller, and more confined to the northern mountainous regions.  Foxes were common - about the size of a small coyote.  Over time, the size of the Maremma may have been allowed to diminish in favor of a smaller, quicker dog.

Annie shows the excellent traits of the prime guardian dog.  Her size is immaterial to her ability unless you have much larger predators than raccoons, foxes, and coyotes.  Shep (since he does not know about his physical failing) is brave, willing, and shows excellent guardian traits.  Both these dogs are working to their potential.  As your story about them splitting to different positions in protection showed, they have a good working partnership.

While I would definitely have it in mind to get another livestock guardian in the future, at the moment these two are doing what you need.  Eventually you may have to replace Shep, but not now.  In addition, remember when bringing in a puppy, the puppy will play fight with Shep and Annie.  This is normal and how the older dogs teach the pups to defend and attack.  With Shep's jaw problem, you don't want the puppy to accidentally injure Shep's jaw.  On the other hand, you don't want to wait until you only have a much older Annie to both defend and teach a new puppy.   It is a Catch 22 situation but as time goes on you will be able to make the decision.


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## AgnesGray (Jan 17, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Maremma                         Great Pyr                       Anatolian
> Female weight   66-88 lbs.                         80-100 lbs.                     80-120 lbs.
> Male weight      77-99 lbs.                         100 lb. and up               110-160 lbs.
> 
> ...


Annie is 2, will be 3 this year.  

It cracks me up to see the size charts for Maremmas in the US.  I think you're right that maremmas have shrunk in size (here in the states).  The AKC has it wrong, sadly, but I do know that there are small maremmas here somehow that fit in that size range and Annie may have gotten the small genes.  She was 61 lbs this last time at the vet, including her slip lead, collar, and second leash.  

As for the "real weight" of maremmas, the maremma parents of the pup we adopted had more of the american look than the original Italian, but were 130 (male) and 140 (female) which is closer in size to the maremmas I knew in Italy.  The dog's grandmother was an Italian import which I'm sure contributed to the heavier weights.  I am not sure of their breed standard sizes, but there were maremmas I met there that were much larger and had somewhat different facial features than some of the "maremmas" we see here and I have wondered about that.  

I love Annie's build in many ways.  She is quick and can wiggle through the smallest of spaces (who needs jump gates when she can wiggle under fences in a flash lol).  The only thing I don't like about the situation of her being small is that our coyotes about match her in size and way outnumber us.  She is feisty and the sounds she makes when she's going after something make our hair stand up, but she will never have the power of a "full size" LGD.



Ridgetop said:


> ...you don't want to wait until you only have a much older Annie to both defend and teach a new puppy.   It is a Catch 22 situation but as time goes on you will be able to make the decision.



Yes, this is the plan.  We have been incredibly blessed that these two have found us.  Imperfections and all, they have been such an asset.  Hopefully number three will be another "meant to be" addition.


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## AgnesGray (Feb 1, 2022)

We are contemplating a Colorado Mountain Dog pup.  Anyone here have one?


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 1, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> We are contemplating a Colorado Mountain Dog pup.  Anyone here have one?


That is a mix of breeds, so the temperament is pretty much a role of the dice.


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## AgnesGray (Feb 1, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> That is a mix of breeds, so the temperament is pretty much a role of the dice.


I can see that with the foundation and g1, g2 pups, but after selectively breeding for 4 or 5 generations, I am wondering how much of a gamble it would be.  Especially since all of the foundation dogs are purebred LGD dogs.  

I think it's interesting what they are trying to create with dogs that are specifically suited to smaller properties that don't roam as much and are good with poultry/farm visitors/etc.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 1, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> I can see that with the foundation and g1, g2 pups, but after selectively breeding for 4 or 5 generations, I am wondering how much of a gamble it would be.  Especially since all of the foundation dogs are purebred LGD dogs.
> 
> I think it's interesting what they are trying to create with dogs that are specifically suited to smaller properties that don't roam as much and are good with poultry/farm visitors/etc.


Here is the standard. https://coloradomountaindogs.com/coloradomountaindogstandard

They are open about the fact that their dogs are mixed, unlike the "bearded retriever club" Which I appreciate.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 1, 2022)

Be very diligent of the breeder you choose. I looked at a few CMD breeders and most of them had zero dogs on OFA, Namely painted canvas farms who is supposedly a "founder breeder"


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## AgnesGray (Feb 1, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> Here is the standard. https://coloradomountaindogs.com/coloradomountaindogstandard
> 
> They are open about the fact that their dogs are mixed, unlike the "bearded retriever club" Which I appreciate.


Bearded retriever club?  Haha - that's a new one for me (which I will now google). lol 

I joined the CMD Facebook group and have been impressed by them overall.  Not getting one in the immediate future, but definitely going to follow their progress and think on it a bit more.  Surprised that painted canvas farms isn't OFA, but I know there are widely varied opinions about OFA both positive and negative.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 1, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> Bearded retriever club? Haha - that's a new one for me (which I will now google). lol


It will make you laugh for sure. They are trying to make a golden x poodle a "breed" With lots of negative push-back from just about everybody. LOL!


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 1, 2022)

Bearded Retriever Club of America
					

OUR MISSION IS TO PROMOTE THE BEST FUTURE FOR THE MODERN FAMILY DOG   Join the Club    	Be involved in developing & promoting this new breed  	Receive notification of news and research  	Access to resources and mentors  	Subscription to our future newsletters  	Use of the BRCA logo on your...




					beardedretrieverclubofamerica.org


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## AgnesGray (Feb 1, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> It will make you laugh for sure. They are trying to make a golden x poodle a "breed" With lots of negative push-back from just about everybody. LOL!


I must live under a rock because I had never heard of them.  😂  Are they like goldendoodles?  

In general, I don't purposefully choose crosses.  Have adopted our fair share of them over the years.  I like that the CMD are "theoretically" bred for a purpose.  I'd love to hear from owners who have 4th and 5th generation to know whether the dogs are turning out as they'd hoped.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 1, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> I must live under a rock because I had never heard of them. 😂 Are they like goldendoodles?


It _is_ a goldendoodle. They are trying to make them a breed. Stupidest standard I've ever read.🙄 
The AKC and UKC is very against all doodle breeding and so is the poodle club of america.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 4, 2022)

Cross breeding has become trendy.  

I prefer to find a purebred dog with the traits that I want rather than a crossbred whose traits might go one way or the other.  And definitely buy from breeders who do OFA and elbows, as well as other genetic tests that might be specific to the breed.  These days you can look the dog's OFA score up online if you have the number.  Reputable breeders will give you the information.


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## AgnesGray (Feb 5, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Cross breeding has become trendy.
> 
> I prefer to find a purebred dog with the traits that I want rather than a crossbred whose traits might go one way or the other.  And definitely buy from breeders who do OFA and elbows, as well as other genetic tests that might be specific to the breed.  These days you can look the dog's OFA score up online if you have the number.  Reputable breeders will give you the information.


I am not interested in trendy.  And don't believe that's the intention behind CMD, but rather functionality.  

I'd love a maremma pup from prancing pony in CA, which checks all boxes, but they're out of reach for me.  

So for now we wait.


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## AgnesGray (Feb 5, 2022)

This coyote was tossing bunnies around in our back pasture this week.  The dogs knew he was there and he knew they were there.  He was likely last year's pup as he was small, playful and didn't have the coat I've seen on some of the larger coyotes.   Also somewhat unusual to see them at midday around here, but it happens.












Meanwhile, the ice storm hit us with a short tail end of snow.  The dogs enjoyed the snow for the most part, but Annie is slightly limping again on that back leg from time to time, which I suppose is her old injury flaring.  Is it the cold temperatures or all of the playing and chasing? - I don't know.  She makes full use of both back knees and the vet says nothing is wrong so we will watch her.  *sigh*  We do love them dearly, but wish they didn't have to deal with the struggles they have.  




@Ridgetop whichever dog we choose next, which may very well be a purebred, we will do everything we can to avoid the kind of problems we've had with these two, for what is possible.  Meanwhile I hope my story will be helpful to someone else.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 5, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Cross breeding has become trendy.
> 
> I prefer to find a purebred dog with the traits that I want rather than a crossbred whose traits might go one way or the other.  And definitely buy from breeders who do OFA and elbows, as well as other genetic tests that might be specific to the breed.  These days you can look the dog's OFA score up online if you have the number.  Reputable breeders will give you the information.


Finding OFA scores is easier than that nowadays! All you have to type in is the kennel name and boom! You get all of their dogs all at once. Very handy.


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## AgnesGray (Feb 7, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> Finding OFA scores is easier than that nowadays! All you have to type in is the kennel name and boom! You get all of their dogs all at once. Very handy.


I can't seem to find any maremmas in OFA, but I am sure I'm doing it wrong.  I did find Painted Canvas Farms' Chuck Norris though (maybe searching Painted Canvas, maybe PCF - can't remember).  I know Prancing Pony OFA tests her maremmas, and tried to do a breed search as maybe there is someone closer?  Any suggestions on finding a breeder within a certain breed?


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## Cecilia's-herd (Feb 7, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> I can't seem to find any maremmas in OFA, but I am sure I'm doing it wrong.  I did find Painted Canvas Farms' Chuck Norris though (maybe searching Painted Canvas, maybe PCF - can't remember).  I know Prancing Pony OFA tests her maremmas, and tried to do a breed search as maybe there is someone closer?  Any suggestions on finding a breeder within a certain breed?


AKC marketplace and Gooddog are good in a pinch. But ALWAYS double check websites and OFA. 

If they only have one or two dogs registered about of the (for example) 10 or 12 they breed, run the other way.


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## AgnesGray (Mar 29, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> AKC marketplace and Gooddog are good in a pinch. But ALWAYS double check websites and OFA.
> 
> If they only have one or two dogs registered about of the (for example) 10 or 12 they breed, run the other way.


Sorry, I missed this, but can you tell me why that would be a red flag.  I am not disagreeing at all, just would like to understand the reason.


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## AgnesGray (Mar 29, 2022)

Well, in the space of 24 hours we've been offered not one, but TWO dogs.

My brother called Sunday afternoon and said his pet GP "Moose" has dug out so many times this week that his neck is oozing from the e-fence collar zaps and could they bring him over to us for a bit while they figure out what to do about their fence situation.

Here he is being shown his 8x8 doghouse with yellow stuff he isn't sure what to think of on the floor after reminding himself how hotwire works, poor guy.





His first day was pretty stressful for him, repeatedly testing out the fence before deciding the dog house was plenty warm, but he sat in there all night with his eyes open.   He was here last summer for a bit in a different softer area that we've since torn down in preparation for building a small barn.  In that time, he tussled with Annie who put him on the ground in about a second flat, twice her weight or not lol, chased chickens, but did take out a possum and has 0 tolerance for intruders.  In his suburban life he has chased off bobcats, deer, and coyotes and is an outstanding protector of their family.  This time he's being crabby with Shep also, but the working instinct is strong with this one still, in spite of living in suburbia since he left his farm as a pup 3 years ago.  Too bad he doesn't get along with our dogs or we would have already adopted him and tried working on the chicken chasing or let him have the perimeter to keep the coyotes out.





Meanwhile, the farm Shep came from has to part with their goats and all of their dogs and we were offered his dad.  His dad is steady, not a barker, gorgeous, and has lived a working dog life his whole life.   He's been the gold standard that we've tried to raise Shep to become and is an outstanding pack leader.  I don't have any of my own pictures of him to share, but hopefully soon.  He's also 30 or so lbs lighter than Moose, which is more compatible with our two in size.   He's the leader of his fairly large pack and does an outstanding job of it.  My question is this:  *how can we introduce this strong leader to our strong leader (Annie) to give them the best possible chances to become a working team?   *

I am not worried about Shep; he will want to play and likely just roll over and wag his tail with his dad as he does with Moose.  Annie is a force to be reckoned with but although she likes to be the boss, some of her body language tells me she knows she needs help and Shep isn't able to do what she needs.  Is it a bad idea to get an adult instead of a puppy?


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## Baymule (Mar 29, 2022)

Putting a strong female with a strong male , in my opinion for what it’s worth, will work out. There may be a power struggle to start with, but I think they will sort it out and Annie will take second place to Moose. You can introduce them with a fence between them for a few days, then put both on a leash and walk them together for a few more days, then put them together. By that time you should be able to tell if they will be able to get along.


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## AgnesGray (Mar 29, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Putting a strong female with a strong male , in my opinion for what it’s worth, will work out. There may be a power struggle to start with, but I think they will sort it out and Annie will take second place to Moose. You can introduce them with a fence between them for a few days, then put both on a leash and walk them together for a few more days, then put them together. By that time you should be able to tell if they will be able to get along.


Would you choose Moose over Shep's dad?  I think we did it wrong initially last summer, but Annie and Moose were fighting through the fence.  Being a male and female pair, I'd hoped for a good result, but Annie is feisty and Moose was stubbornly growling at her just to see her spark, I think. lol


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## Cecilia's-herd (Mar 29, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> Sorry, I missed this, but can you tell me why that would be a red flag.  I am not disagreeing at all, just would like to understand the reason.


It means they are breeding dogs and not health testing them. Red flag.


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## AgnesGray (Mar 29, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> It means they are breeding dogs and not health testing them. Red flag.


Ah, ok - so you mean OFA registry, not necessarily AKC or other breed registry.


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## Baymule (Mar 29, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> Would you choose Moose over Shep's dad?  I think we did it wrong initially last summer, but Annie and Moose were fighting through the fence.  Being a male and female pair, I'd hoped for a good result, but Annie is feisty and Moose was stubbornly growling at her just to see her spark, I think. lol


Going back and reading it again, I meant Sheep’s dad, but I said Moose. Shep’s dad sounds like a dream dog. Absolutely Shep’s dad!


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## Cecilia's-herd (Mar 30, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> Ah, ok - so you mean OFA registry, not necessarily AKC or other breed registry.


Oh, yes, sorry! OFA is the  Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. AKC or UKC is fine with me! Cont. Kennel Club is a red flag just because lots of puppy mills use it as a registry. Canadian KC is good as well


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## AgnesGray (Mar 31, 2022)

Thanks to you both!  ❤️❤️


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## AgnesGray (May 3, 2022)

Ironic how things go.  So many possibilities and none of them worked out, but as of yesterday, we have a third dog.

Shep's dad is staying with his pack as they got their fences sorted out and I'm happy for them.  He's adored where he is and I think when it came down to it, parting with him was not the option they thought it was.

Meanwhile, they chose not to come back for Moose.   And he hated Annie (and Shep) more than ever.  And really just wanted to hang out with people on the couch.  He's so confused at this point about how to direct and use his instincts.  We made the difficult choice to rehome him to a pet home with the help of GP rehoming support.  And he is happily living the life of a pet GP once again.

Someone found a pup wandering around by a local lake and brought him to the sheriff at about 5 months old (he's been staying with the shelter for a month while they looked for owners and getting his shots).  They offered him to us because of Annie being part Anatolian and most of the people who wanted him didn't have any experience with LGD breeds.  I went to meet him a few weeks ago.  No owners came for him and so we brought him home yesterday.  






With an unknown background, it will be interesting to see how he does with our stock, but even if it doesn't work out for him to blend in with them, perimeter help will be very welcome.  Our local DNR quietly released big cats to control the deer population and a mom and her cubs were spotted near our property so the added presence he should bring is very welcome.  

Adventure part 3, here we go!


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## Cecilia's-herd (May 3, 2022)

I wish you all the luck in the world. Lots of people will abandon LGDs that can't guard or use their instincts the correct way. I remember my neighbor abandoned a dog who continuously killed chickens. Thankfully I found him and called the rescue to come to pick him up. Poor baby! He's very cute. Hopefully, that Anatolian side of him pays off.


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## AgnesGray (May 3, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> I wish you all the luck in the world. Lots of people will abandon LGDs that can't guard or use their instincts the correct way. I remember my neighbor abandoned a dog who continuously killed chickens. Thankfully I found him and called the rescue to come to pick him up. Poor baby! He's very cute. Hopefully, that Anatolian side of him pays off.


Thanks!  I am going to need it!  

That's such an awful, but sadly somewhat common, way your neighbor handled that situation.  Good for you for stepping in and helping the dog out!  What breed was the chicken killer?


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## Cecilia's-herd (May 3, 2022)

AgnesGray said:


> Thanks!  I am going to need it!
> 
> That's such an awful, but sadly somewhat common, way your neighbor handled that situation.  Good for you for stepping in and helping the dog out!  What breed was the chicken killer?


Anatolian/Pyr cross. The most common mix around here. I think it was bad genetics.


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## Baymule (May 3, 2022)

Very handsome dog! I can see the intelligence in his face. He may take some work and direction but it will so be worth it. What is his name? 

You are right about outer parameter help. I have a big black Great Dane/Labrador cross that is the back up help on the other side of the fence, in the yard. Do even if your new dog doesn’t get alone with the other two, he will still be a valuable addition to your farm.


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## AgnesGray (May 3, 2022)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> Anatolian/Pyr cross. The most common mix around here. I think it was bad genetics.


That's a shame.  Poor pupper


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## AgnesGray (May 3, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Very handsome dog! I can see the intelligence in his face. He may take some work and direction but it will so be worth it. What is his name?
> 
> You are right about outer parameter help. I have a big black Great Dane/Labrador cross that is the back up help on the other side of the fence, in the yard. Do even if your new dog doesn’t get alone with the other two, he will still be a valuable addition to your farm.


They named him Rocky and I think it kind of fits so we'll probably keep that.  

I bet that Great Dane Labrador is beautiful! Sometimes just a big figure and a solid bark is really helpful for moving along troublemakers.  

I'm really encouraged by how well the first nose touch went between my two and this guy.  He averted his gaze and Annie's whole demeanor relaxed and she threw out a dog smile.  We'll see when they're actually able to interact a bit.


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## Mini Horses (May 3, 2022)

I love his looks!  He's looking for a good home, he found it !!  Handling and training, he'll do you proud.


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## AgnesGray (May 5, 2022)

Mini Horses said:


> I love his looks!  He's looking for a good home, he found it !!  Handling and training, he'll do you proud.


Awe, thanks!  

We're so glad to have him!  I'm going to run dna on him in hopes of finding his breeder.  I posted him in the working Anatolians group and they all think he's purebred AS.  A couple of people think Turkish Boz.  A local AS breeder was asked if it might be any of hers and she's accounted for all of her recent pups so he may be a farm pup from an oopsie litter.  I suppose we'll likely never know for sure, but I do hope to find where he came from and who his parents might be on the off chance they're in the database.  

After the first walk past the dogs and into the barn, he found Moose's crate that was still sitting there and ducked into it.  I think he must have had crate experience wherever he was before.  He wouldn't come out or eat a bite the first full day.  I added a beef knuckle and an egg to his bowl and it all vanished.  He is quickly relaxing though.  If I bring one of the other dogs into the barn, they coax him out and then they go off on an adventure.  They're still a little unsure about him when he gets playful, but nothing more than a grumble here and there.  When any of them grumbles, we end social time to give them all a break.  I don't want to go too fast, but I do want to integrate him while he's got puppy brain.


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## Baymule (May 5, 2022)

Don't be surprised if, as he gets older, that he might get aggressive with male dogs. I have 3 male dogs. The black Great Dane/Labrador cross and the Great Pyrenees get along just fine. All 3 used to play together and were buddies. Guess who doesn't get along now? Sentry, the Anatolian. Sentry is half Anatolian, 1/4 GP and 1/4 Akbash. Fierce, and the smallest of the bunch. Sentry loves Sheba, Anatolian, and they are an awesome working team. 

That's my experience, just thought I'd give you a word of caution. Not saying that he will, but if you see it, recognize it for what it is. 
He is a beautiful pup.


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## AgnesGray (May 7, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Don't be surprised if, as he gets older, that he might get aggressive with male dogs. I have 3 male dogs. The black Great Dane/Labrador cross and the Great Pyrenees get along just fine. All 3 used to play together and were buddies. Guess who doesn't get along now? Sentry, the Anatolian. Sentry is half Anatolian, 1/4 GP and 1/4 Akbash. Fierce, and the smallest of the bunch. Sentry loves Sheba, Anatolian, and they are an awesome working team.
> 
> That's my experience, just thought I'd give you a word of caution. Not saying that he will, but if you see it, recognize it for what it is.
> He is a beautiful pup.


Thanks for the heads-up!  I won't be surprised, but do hope we can keep them running together as a pack.  If anyone gets pulled, it'll be Shep, but hopefully they'll all learn to work together.   

Current challenge... Annie's resource guardian is rearing its head.  Shep got a bunny which she slyly took from him and then decided to guard it before eating it.  Puppy got snarled at before we realized what she had and didn't back away or snarl back, just stood.  When the situation was diffused he wanted to return to his crate in the barn for a bit.  

That was this morning and we removed any "treats" we could find and let Rocky back out (always together under supervision). They were full on playing hide/seek around a few obstacles for the first time. Running, chasing, play biting... I was relieved that no grudges were being held.  The good life of being a puppy, I guess.  A pass is given for so many things that they'd never allow out of an adult dog.  😄

Did I mention he already outweighs Annie at about 80 lbs?  He's going to be a big boy!


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## Baymule (May 7, 2022)

It’s fun to watch them play together. Your puppy is learning how to be a dog. He needs this interaction with the other 2 dogs. He is one lucky puppy to belong to y’all.


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## AgnesGray (May 8, 2022)

Baymule said:


> It’s fun to watch them play together. Your puppy is learning how to be a dog. He needs this interaction with the other 2 dogs. He is one lucky puppy to belong to y’all.


Awe, thanks! I hope we can be the pack he needs.  



So far no interest in the chickens.  He seems totally unfazed by their flapping and running.  We'll see when he unwinds a bit more, how he feels about them.


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## AgnesGray (May 12, 2022)

I've been feeling like Rocky's been doing so great.  And he really has!  Topping up water and food this morning I turned around to find he'd hopped into one of the portable electric fences and was lying in the grass near some chickens.  




What I failed to realize was how much of his progress was thanks to my dogs... Annie in particular.  (Shep is a little jealous of having another male around, so we'll see how that goes.)

This morning we were late for work and trying to corral everyone to their appropriate places after morning "free run time".  We don't leave them together unattended, but they have a few hours a day when they are free to run together.  I put Annie and Shep up first and Rocky froze.  He didn't want to go to the barn which has been his safe place of choice or the small yard where he likes to hang out when we are all there.  I put a leash on him and he turned to stone.  Wasn't going to budge.  

This was now right about the time I should be getting to work and live about 20 minutes away, so not really going for perfection at this point, more for any safe place that I could trust to leave him in.  Raw beef bone didn't cut it either at this point as he had shut down and was making it a big deal in his own mind to move in any direction.  

The answer turned out to be pretty simple.  Bring Annie back out.  It took him one second to move once he saw her and he bounded into the small yard (that he'd been terrified to approach a few seconds prior).  Annie then didn't want to return to her post when she discovered the many goodies that were in Rocky's space, but we made it and I finally could leave for work.  

I want to map out a space where he can stay near Annie, but without access to the birds until we know him better.  Haven't figured out what that looks like yet, but she is comforting for him, toothy corrections and all.  Maybe he sees her as a mother figure? lol


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## Baymule (May 12, 2022)

I’m loving reading Rocky’s story. He is an awesome dog!


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## AgnesGray (May 12, 2022)

Baymule said:


> I’m loving reading Rocky’s story. He is an awesome dog!


Thanks for reading this far!


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## Baymule (May 13, 2022)

Love your dogs, keep the pictures and stories coming!


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## AgnesGray (May 20, 2022)

Rocky is feeling new confidence.  I love it and I am also keeping an eye on him and Annie.  They've gone head to head a few times.  They both have a tendency to resource guard when the other is around.  We don't leave food out since Rocky came to us, but someone caught a mouse and they both felt they deserved and owned it.   The good news is, they move from that to playing with no hard feelings.  Shep just rolls over and is happy letting them be large and in charge.  

As his confidence grows, he no longer wants to sleep in the barn either.  He wants to be out barking at the coyotes.  I haven't been sure how I felt about letting him free at night just yet, but he howls and carries on in the barn and is only quiet if I'm out there with him.  I slept in a lawn chair near him a couple nights so everyone else could sleep, but finally let him out and he's been pretty good.  He has slipped up near the house a couple nights to sleep under the bedroom window.  So far mostly good.  

Still no chicken chasing either.  Hoping he and Shep and Annie stay friends.  

Did I mention that our local DNR brought in and released bobcats to help control the deer population?  Not sure why they didn't just increase the bag limit during hunting season.  A lady who raises sheep down the road found a mom and cubs in her barn one morning a couple weeks ago.  Really hoping these three can work well together.


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## AgnesGray (Jun 7, 2022)

Well, he caught a young chicken.  And a turkey poult.  The little ones get him going for some reason, even though he mostly leaves the larger birds alone. 

I shared a video on facebook a bit ago and just got it uploaded to youtube.  Rocky thought he'd challenge Annie and find out what she's made of.  She looked like she really wasn't in the mood to have that discussion with him, but eventually did what he was asking for.  



  They both seemed to be having fun with it overall. 

He now adores her.  Something about the feisty little lady that both of our boys respect.  So thankful to have her.  I have seen him sleeping with his head on her lately and if he's resting, his feet are always pointing in her direction since this time so they must have said what needed to be said and have now moved forward.

ETA: Yikes, the cover Youtube picked looks scary.


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## Baymule (Jun 7, 2022)

Annie is the Alpha dog! Good catch, getting that on video!


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## AgnesGray (Jun 7, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Annie is the Alpha dog! Good catch, getting that on video!


That she is!


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