# De-Horned 2yr old Doe-WEEK 3 update



## Southern by choice (Feb 27, 2014)

Some of you may be familiar with the thread ...
http://www.backyardherds.com/thread...d-and-other-such-questions.27769/#post-351216

Well the decision was finally made and Millie has sealed the deal. The appointment was made today. We love our horned goats as much as our polled and disbudded goats but Millie has really posed a problem with hers.

Millie is a very sweet goat BUT she is not nice to the other goats and the LGD's. Some goats are her buddies and she is super gentle but other goats well... she is a real bully. She KNOWS how to use her horns and the other goats are getting more and more afraid of her. They see her coming and they run out of the loafing shed or away from the hay feeder if they see her coming. The LGD's are always watchful as she will just hit them with no reason. She does this if something is simply standing there and she doesn't want them standing there... chicken, geese, goats, kids(goat), dogs, pups.

This weekend we were milling about  with the girls and we noticed Millie's horns. She has been sharpening them on the side of the cinder block wall.  I know this sounds strange but I believe she is doing this on purpose and she is very calculating. Her temperament with people and with goats she likes is wonderful. The stock she came from... all big babies! Millie ended up not getting disbudded by the breeder because he had surgery right as she was kidded... only goats he'd not disbudded. We didn't care because we like horns.

Here are some pics of her sharpened spears... and the angle I was trying to get I was not able as she wasn't liking her head being restrained. They are like daggers. At this point she could kill another goat and I have kids hitting the ground in April and if she get one of the LGD's well then she would have to die, she is not worth losing great stock and great dogs. It is risky for us humans too because all it could take is a quick jerk of the head. I am sad about this but I know I am doing the right thing. She will be brought down a peg or two I know and she needs to be. For her it is all about her horns.

I will be assisting in the surgery and as strange as it sounds I feel like it will help me also to process the affects. It's something I have always done... if surgery is needed or any procedure I do best assisting- it's a mental thing. I am hoping to journal the process. I won't be able to get pics during the procedure obviously, but hope to show the open wound and the healing process.

You can see how she has filed them...











Not a great pic but you can see how she is making them as pointy as can be





The left side is a dagger





You can kinda see it here- notice only her daughter is eating hay with her- no one will go near her. HEr daughter is a sweetie pie- she was the first goat we had BORN on our farm that we had di-budded. I am sooooooo glad we did.


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## Pioneer Chicken (Feb 27, 2014)

Wow, yeah, those horns do have to go if she's being that way. : /  I hope all goes well!! 

I have a lamancha doe that was not disbudded by her previous owners.  I was going to hold off with banding her horns till a week plus after I got her (she was 6weeks old then), but she was being nasty to my nigerian dwarf kids. She would put her horns under their belly and go up.   She is a real sweetheart with us, but, my, when she's with my kids, it was grrr.  I banded her twice last year, but they keep coming back (they are very dull/flat, so I don't think they can hurt anything).  She is still being a little stinker with my wether.  I see fur on her horns almost every day.  I'm about ready to tell her goodbye. :/

Anyway, didn't mean to vent like that.  I'll be following this thread for sure.


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## bonbean01 (Feb 27, 2014)

Agree with your decision Southern...and sharpening them???  Wowzers...they have to go!


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## woodsie (Feb 27, 2014)

yikes! Sharpening horns…never would have thought they would figure out how to do that …I was thinking of venturing into the lamanchas but after hearing this I may just have to stick with my beautiful but dim-witted Nubians. Sometimes clever is not such a great quality. 

I hope everything goes well for you and her..imo she's lucky she's not on the menu.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 27, 2014)

Lamanchas are truly the sweetest goats ever. They are also highly intelligent. I am being very honest though when I say NO HORNS on a Lamancha. I like horns... all our kikos have big spiraling horns, 1/3 of our Nigies have horns... no issues. Millie's baby "Trouble" is the biggest baby in the world! A true cuddly lovebucket but not obnoxious and our new lamancha buckling... well he is a hoot. Smart as can be too. 
If Millie was "EVIL" to people she would have been in the freezer by now. I will not tolerate that. So I feel like this is our only option and completely worth doing to save a really great producer and a sweetheart of a goat.

Funny how gentle she is with our listeria survivor goat... Coco has permanent damage from the listeria, and she is infertile- but she is our pet- Millie LOVES her and is so gentle and plays super gentle with her.... so she knows what she's doing. Jerk. 

Millie is one of our favorites here, she is a very endearing goat- she kinda thinks she should be an only child and spoiled I guess. 
I have never been around a mean lamancha... never even heard of one.I will say they are the quietest goats. I love QUIET goats! 

I am a little stressed over this and I don't usually get that way. Kinda nervous... I love this goat and don't want to lose her. Trying to get this done while still cold and no fly strike issues.
She will be separated from the crew- good thing about Millie is she doesn't care... I might put her daughter with her for company as long as she doesn't mess with the bandages.


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## babsbag (Feb 27, 2014)

LaManchas can be smart and calculating, as are Alpines, and I have both...good things no horns on them. The Boers have their horns and they never seem to use them as weapons so I don't mind.

I am amazed that she has gotten them so sharp, what a little stinker. I hope the surgery goes well and that it is healed before fly season.


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## babsbag (Feb 27, 2014)

When is the surgery?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 27, 2014)

Saturday.


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## Mike CHS (Feb 28, 2014)

I would think it's just a matter of time till she does some serious damage. My Macaw sharpens his beak and they all do that in the wild.  I also had a steer that would do that so I guess it can be common. This is going to be an interesting journal.


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## 2luv2farm (Feb 28, 2014)

Those suckers look dangerous!  Glad you made the decision to have them removed (I know it wasn't an easy one).  Hope all goes well. Call me after!


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## Southern by choice (Feb 28, 2014)

No not easy but after she sharpened them into spears- well that made it easier.

I do hope those that read this thread realize that this is a rare case. Most goats with horns never pose a problem. There are goats that are polled and goats that are dsibudded that can be just as much of a knucklehead... just not as dangerous.


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## rebelINny (Mar 1, 2014)

Good luck today! Hope everything goes well


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## Womwotai (Mar 1, 2014)

I think you said today is the day….hope it all goes well - update us when you get a chance.


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## Pioneer Chicken (Mar 1, 2014)

Womwotai said:


> I think you said today is the day….hope it all goes well - update us when you get a chance.



x2


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## Southern by choice (Mar 2, 2014)

All went well and I will be updating in a little while. I did get some pics but they are graphic. Not sure I should post them.


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## Womwotai (Mar 2, 2014)

Glad to hear all went well.  I think go ahead and post - this is, after all, a place to learn.  If you post a disclaimer that they are graphic in the subject line and again in the post before posting the pics, people who don't want to see them don't need to open the thread.


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## Baymule (Mar 2, 2014)

What a brilliant little witch! You do have to admire her for being smart enough to actually sharpen her horns. But at the same time, you can't tolerate an animal that is a danger to others. Post the pictures. Anybody that can't stomach the reality that is animal husbandry doesn't have to look. It's not all pink noses, warm and fuzzies.


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## hilarie (Mar 3, 2014)

Bravo, Southern.  Those horns are sabers and you're absolutely right to be proactive.  Is it hard?  Of course.  But this is why it's animal stewardship, not just farming.  It's keeping *everyone's* best interest in mind and taking the lesser of the two evils - having the procedure that will literally save her (and others') lives.  I'm sending up metta for you and Millie, and I hope it's going OK now - I guess it's done and would love to know how it went.  And BTW, I know exactly what you mean about wanting to be in the thick of it, how it gives you more control over your response (and maybe over the outcome).  Some things you just need to bear witness to.  If you're a reader, read "The White Bone."  And email me (hilariejones@yahoo.com) if you need Adaptic, or vet wrap, or any other thing.


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## hilarie (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm for posting.  Ditto what everyone else said: we're in animal husbandry and midwifery (is that a great play on words, or what? ), not in table etiquette.  Bring it, with a disclaimer, and let the heebie-jeebies fall where they belong: on those who choose to look.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

Sorry this has taken so long to post...

First PLEASE let me say this REALLY was a very difficult decision and I hope those reading are able to separate the horn debate from this topic. I have no problems with any of our horned goats and this IMO was absolutely necessary for the safety of my family as well as all the other animals. Some may say if the goat is that mean put her in the freezer.
Well she is a very sweet goat with humans and with other animals she "likes". At 2 years of age and a great producer as well as a very loved goat I could not see that as an option until others had been exhausted. I couldn't see shortening her life by 10 years because of pain she might endure for a day or two. BTW she has needed no pain meds. She had one (shot) before we left the vets and that's it.

Looking back Millie really started this about a month after her first kidding. She was a bit of a queen and sometimes a bully but never tried to hurt anything before that.

After going through this with her a friend asked "if you could go back after now having done this would you make the same decision?". I can honestly say ABSOLUTELY. So far Millie hasn't skipped a beat. She is still a lovable brat, a little ornery, still bossy, and a pig to boot! She came home and was trying to get the lids off the feed bins for food. 1 hour after all this! 
She acts as if though nothing has happened.
*I would not do this for cosmetics reasons but for real necessity only.* I will say I have heard many horror stories and IMO this was not a horror story. I have assisted in far many other surgeries/procedures that I thought were much worse.

I will not go into great detail but I did do the holding ( along with my farming partner "Straw", as some of you know him as) during the procedure. Not an easy task. She was sedated- but not to the point of being completely knocked out, just *heavily sedated and she was given 4 injections in the brow for nerve block*. The hold must be precise and a small bit of resistance is better than trying to hold a limp noodle 100+ lb goat with it's head perfectly still as the sawing is much more difficult. The angle of the tilt must be very precise. Until I prepped her (shaving and cleaning) I never noticed just how bulged out a goats eyes are from their head. WOW! So the tilt must be precise so as you saw you do not keep going with the momentum and cut into the eyes. 

*BTW- each horn took approximately 15-20 SECONDS to saw off. The cauterizing a few seconds each.*
The bandaging took longer than the whole procedure.

First this is Millie hanging out Sunday..






This is the reason she was so dangerous- sharpening her horns...






Spoiler: graphic pics and description



I got as many pics as I could but was kinda busy...
This is after the first horn. The first horn was easier as you could help do the hold by holding the other horn. There were only a few drops of blood that kinda rose up and those bleeders were cauterized. The blood in the horn is there because it dripped into it. It is not filled at all.





Close up... because the color is so vivid it makes it look like the cavity is filled, it is not... like a cut that dripped down and coated the inside.





I am holding her in a rest position. We waited a few minutes before moving to the other horn.  One down. See what I mean about those eyes!





Second one done. AGAIN there was no spewing blood. More like qwicking a dogs nail but not even that bad. Look at those eyes.





Another view







Just got home sedatives pretty much worn off. Millie did her I love you- that is where she presses her head up against you .





All bandaged- She looks like she has the Mumps. We are showing her her horns.





She walked over to to other goats. They were scared... mommy it's frankengoat... some were brave and stood their hair up then ran away. LOL





Inside of horns





Another view- they were only hollow up to 3" inside.





So far Millie has not missed a beat and she even opened the daggone gate and ran up to the house. She is Millie- no worse for wear. She even butted the turkey. Yep... Millie is fine.

NOW- having said that I really never want to have to do that again, BUT I would if the situation ever called for it. Odd how she started all this after she freshened.  Wonder if some kind of hormonal issue?

I wanted to share this because being in with my goat and going through the whole process allows me to share with others that may be at a place of last resort and have heard how awful it is. Yes it is awful but so was getting my wisdom teeth pulled. Yes the sinus cavity is open but it is bandaged and it is cold- less possibility of fly strike.

I also kissed my girl between steps and told her I loved her and it would be over soon. I know I did the right thing for Millie.

Hope this helps others. 

I will be posting in another thread about sneaky Millie....


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## Mike CHS (Mar 5, 2014)

I can't see how anyone could fault your decision. Good post and thank you again.


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## Womwotai (Mar 5, 2014)

Thanks for the very thorough post, Southern.  Good job documenting every step along the way.  How long do you anticipate it taking before she is considered to be fully healed?  How long before the bandages come off?


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## Pioneer Chicken (Mar 5, 2014)

Pictures were great. : ) I can see what you mean about the eyes.  I'm glad everything went just fine and that Millie is doing so well!


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## cindyg (Mar 5, 2014)

Wow, that is amazing.  Those sharpened horns are something else.  How does the wound heal?  I mean, what grows over, just skin?  Or bone?  Will she have the spots on her head that are soft for ever now?  Maybe you'll have to get her a little helmet to protect them.  Also, and this is completely off topic, how do you manage to farm goats etc and keep your nails in such pretty condition??   Not fair.


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## Baymule (Mar 5, 2014)

Thanks for sharing the pictures and the thought process that led up to this decision. This is farm life. Sometimes it is messy, and hard decisions have to be made for the good of all.


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## hilarie (Mar 5, 2014)

In my opinion you get the golden ticket for  a) considering all the options and being openminded about the whole thing, and wanting to do what is for the highest good of all, and b) manning up and doing the hard thing because, in your opinion (mine too), it was right.  Your action needs no defense.  I went through the same process with Sweet William, my wether, who had deadly scurs that would have grown into his skull.  BTW, it looks like your vet did a beautiful job.  Looking into those cavities, you'll never believe that those holes will close, but they really do - and become hard enough that Millie will be more than happy to be a butthead again  Have you had to change the dressing, and if so, how did it go?  And was her face swollen the next day?  William was so puffy the next morning, I had to unwrap and rewrap his bandage:




William before surgery.  You can't see the end of his scur, but you get the drift: it just grew straight inward.


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## hilarie (Mar 5, 2014)

He looks totally miserable in that picture, but it's only because his eyes are puffy.  He was quite himself: hungry and affectionate and indignant that I was keeping him in a pen within the pen, so he'd get some rest.


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## hilarie (Mar 5, 2014)

This was 3 months after surgery.  Today he's right as rain - hair completely grown over the defects, head hard as nails, and he appears to have NO memory (or resentment) of the whole thing: he's the sweetest, most affectionate, loveable goat I've ever known, which is why I was willing to go the distance with him.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 5, 2014)

Thank you all for your support and also understanding. 

We were actually instructed to NOT change the bandages til 4-5 days out unless it is wet or she takes it off or smell. Because it is not a flesh wound that needs de-breeding I guess. Vet said changing everyday could actually cause higher chance of infection. 
After hearing from others about healing time I asked how long... anywhere form 3-6 weeks. Seems short to me but I have no experience with this. Technically I don't know what it is exactly that grows over... good question. Maybe @hilarie  can say.

Millie has no swelling at all. We are going to change her dressing and I will get photos along the way- hopefully. Millie is stubborn so this outta take 3 people without her being sedated. 

@hilarie - Thank you so much for posting pics of Sweet William! Poor baby- those scurs were awful. His head looks great! and he is handsome... looks like a Lamancha I know.   Also thank you very much for your posts and encouragement. Sharing in previous posts really helped in making the decision. As a nurse I know you know where I am coming from when I say there is a place of putting all the emotions to the side to do what needs to be done... doesn't mean I didn't process after the fact but I needed to focus on what needed to be done.
The pics are very helpul! THANK YOU for posting them!

I wonder if Millie's might have been easier because they weren't scurs and she's a doe... smaller area and grows different. Sweet Williams looks like the opening may have been really big.

The whole thing has caused me to ponder a few things... I will share those thoughts later. 

@cindyg  LOL- my nails! I have talons! Seriously, they are thick and grow like crazy. They are very hard to cut so I tend to let them go til they just break off (no time for manicures- seriously) problem is they don't break... They grow 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch every month. I don't know why they grow like this... weird huh.


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## Baymule (Mar 5, 2014)

I personally have never dehorned an animal. But I have been one of the party at the squeeze chute. My job was to dab (slop more like it) black gooey stuff on the open wound. It was dehorning cattle and this long handled scoop looking thing was used. The dehorn tool was placed at the base of the horn where it grew out of the skull and the long handles were squeezed together. It made a crunch, sucking sound, blood spurted, the horn fell, I swabbed it with the "medicine".  It was a part of "working cows" we wormed, branded and dehorned. We also dodged some pi$$ed off cows, dodged kicks and tried to keep them from climbing out of the chute, which sometimes they did. Then it was everyone for themselves and we ran for the fence. LOL I miss cows.


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## hilarie (Mar 5, 2014)

OK, yeah, William's "defects" (I love how medicine depersonalizes things, don't you?) were a lot bigger than Millie's.  How big, you ask?  This was a week after his surgery:


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## hilarie (Mar 5, 2014)

Sorry so graphic and awful; but I figure anyone still reading is in it for the long haul.  The bone actually migrates from the periphery of the wound across to the center, and skin actually granulates/ grows in from the edges to the center too.  It was pretty miraculous, watching that "defect" - let's face it, it looks like an active volcano - get smaller and smaller.  I agree with the vet's edict on not changing it until you have to.  I wouldn't have, if William hadn't been so swollen.  We only changed it when it began to unravel which was every 3-4 days on a *good* stretch (sometimes it was twice a day toward the end, when he just wanted that bandage off).  And yes, it's definitely a multi person job, especially in the beginning.  My friend Elizabeth, who lives with us and who is a SAINT (and a genetics major who studied dental bone formation for 12 years, so she's very qualified!) helped me most of the time.  We'd put William on the milking stand and put something delectable in front of him, like beet pulp, which he loves.  Then one of us would feed him and keep his mouth busy while the other unwrapped and rewrapped as fast as humanly possible.  When it sticks, it can be awful; if it gets that way, and hurts her to remove it, get some Adaptic, or if you can't find it, I'll send you some.  I'm glad you were helped by my experience - you're a good soul for doing this and going thru it with her.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 5, 2014)

Great pics. We used a gigli wire on Millie... is that what was used with William?

My daughter many years ago dehisced after abdominal surgery... of course 4 hours before, I TOLD the nurses they needed to check her as something was not right and I thought infection may be setting in... of course they looked at her monitors and said nope she's fine. 2 month old baby so they go by monitors... I said I'm her mom... I KNOW something is wrong. Left for a few hours to sleep and came back and she was moved to another area in the NICU as they saw me approach they panicked ( yes there were many incidences of this kinda thing).... anyway yes something WAS wrong- duh- and she had dehisced. Not something you want to happen but as it goes it was amazing to watch as this massive incision was now a gaping open wound. It took weeks of course but eventually closed. I kind of associate the procedure with this one... it will close over.

@Baymule - I don't know if this is true or not but I have heard that if a cow is in estrus the horns will bleed a lot more... true?
I have seen the cattle dehorners but never the process... UGH don't think I'd want to.


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## hilarie (Mar 5, 2014)

Oh, your poor daughter....  They oughta know to LISTEN to mom.  I learned my first year out of school to *listen* when a patient says something's wrong.  It might be anxiety, but it might not.  And if they say "I don't want this surgery - if I have it, I'm going to die," call the OR and CANCEL.


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## Baymule (Mar 5, 2014)

@Southern by choice it was 20 years ago, my ex's family were all in cattle and everybody pitched in. It was hot, hard, dirty, dangerous at times, and I loved it. I sure could spring for the fence a lot faster than I could now! LOL


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## PendergrassRanch (Mar 6, 2014)

I work at a large/small animal vet that also boards horses.  We have a small herd of goats (4 does, 2 wethers).  They are all full size dairy goats and only one has horns.  He is the biggest, fattest and a bully with big horns that he knows how to use.  The vets have been talking about dehorning him so he will not be so effective against the other goats. 

Here is Pete, the ass
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Thanks for posting this, maybe someday we can do the same to Pete


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## hilarie (Mar 6, 2014)

It's amazing how that can take 'em down a notch - removing the ammunition really changes the way you view the gun.....


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## Southern by choice (Mar 16, 2014)

I have been wanting to udpate and just haven't had time so here are a few pics.

This is at 1 week after removal. All looks good. The one side that looks all goopy is "snot". No infection and looking good. We wiped clean put ointment on it and re-wrapped her head. We didn't put enough tape on and 15 minutes later she had it off so of course we redid- it and taped it with alot of tape. This tape is not vet tape and doesn't stick real well. 





 



 



 

2nd week.... all looks good... couldn't find the pics nut we had to start using duct tape


 

So the Brat has learned to rub her head on any thing sharp, like a wire or something that will "catch" on the tape... it snags and pulls the wrap off her head. Yep she is still a brat.
We now use "Kissy lips"decorative duct tape and really wrap it on. This last time she snagged it she ripped a part of the scab off.
We decided to put her back in the field with the other does. Something so obvious and I didn't even think of it.... all the does stay clear of Millie LOL so there wasn't any chance of them going near enough to try and chew on her bandage. DUH  

This was very interesting. The does all came up to figure out what this was on her head. They followed single file everywhere behind her. The dogs checked her out. She went to butt and hook one of the goats and missed... hahahahaha cuz she has no horns! It took a few times and I think she figured out she doesn't have horns anymore.... rude awakening for her. She has lost her "power". She didn't know what to do... she went down to the woodline and just stood in the woods. She is a bit lost. She has been dethroned... the fall is hard.

She is doing well and is still a snot and a brat and adorable too!
Millie is stylin'.... 
Next time we change bandages I'll get more pics. We change the bandage about 1x week as it does stay dry and she is healing well but slow. We check it everyday and look for any wetness, odor etc.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 16, 2014)

Found this link today doing some research as the sleet pounds down. 

http://nigeriandwarfcolors.weebly.com/polledhorned-genetics.html


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## Southern by choice (Mar 16, 2014)

That is a very helpful chart. I always laugh at the percentages as we all know it never is what you hope. We have 1/2 our herd polled the other horned. Hoping for better than average polled this year.


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## taylorm17 (Mar 16, 2014)

She has a very colorful head


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## Baymule (Mar 16, 2014)

Love the duct tape! So Miss Queen of Mean got took down a notch? haha She will have to play nice from now on.


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## alsea1 (Mar 16, 2014)

Wow. She has made prison shanks. 
I would def. lope those things off.


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## hilarie (Mar 19, 2014)

Southern, that looks fabulous - it appears she's healing beautifully.  Does the bandage stick? How much trouble does she give you at the dressing change?  
I *love* the fancy duct tape.  Yet another case of America being held together by the Duck!  I had a young man in the clinic a few days ago who had a bad hand laceration.  He had wrapped it in a clean cotton sock and duct tape; pretty good job, actually.
I know what you mean about the fall from power; William was a bit taken aback when he discovered he didn't have headgear anymore, and of course he tried headbutting before his head completely healed.....he didn't like that, either.  I suspect Millie will totally get over this, tho; she'll be just like herself, only..... less so


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## Southern by choice (Mar 23, 2014)

WEEK 3

Millie is doing great. Her attitude has changed a great deal.
She does really well with the bandages up until about a day before they need to be changed... then she gets it off overnite! Booger.
We only change the bandage about 1x week, we do keep a close eye on her and smell for changes.
She got her bandage off the night before her scheduled change as usual. So there are hay pieces in there.

healing over nicely
















this weeks style- fancy hearts 



we did a little "extra" on the tape.


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## SA Farm (Mar 23, 2014)

She's really starting to look like she's healing! Love the tape


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## taylorm17 (Mar 23, 2014)

Love the tape. She is looking good. How is she acting with the herd


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## greybeard (Mar 23, 2014)

Baymule said:


> I personally have never dehorned an animal. But I have been one of the party at the squeeze chute. My job was to dab (slop more like it) black gooey stuff on the open wound. It was dehorning cattle and this long handled scoop looking thing was used. The dehorn tool was placed at the base of the horn where it grew out of the skull and the long handles were squeezed together. It made a crunch, sucking sound, blood spurted, the horn fell, I swabbed it with the "medicine".  It was a part of "working cows" we wormed, branded and dehorned. We also dodged some pi$$ed off cows, dodged kicks and tried to keep them from climbing out of the chute, which sometimes they did. Then it was everyone for themselves and we ran for the fence. LOL I miss cows.


Interesting thread. Those, Sound like Keystone dehorners. I never liked them much, but for mature cattle, back in the day (and assume still today) they are the fastest and easiest to use, tho pretty messy. Closing the handles forces the knife blade into the horn and it is sheared off.





Some vets and large cattle producers use a very high speed elec saw, while most of us today use OB saw wire. The other mechanical option is what is known as a Barnes type dehorner, which looks like:




They are placed over short horns or scurs just as they are in the image and the handles are then opened which causes the shearing edges to cleave the horn, but you have to be careful 'where' you begin your cut as this tool has a tendency to make a cupped cut, often digging inward more than is neccessary. I saw a pic last year here at BYH of a black baldie calf that had been dehorned with a pair, and it had a hole in it's head that was quite deep. They come in several different sizes and are best used for scurs, nubs or horns less than 1 1/2 wide or 2" long. (in cattle, a scur is not a real horn, just a short projection of horn/bone like material and it usually isn't actually attached to the scull bone--you can move it around with your fingers)

And of course, for young calves and goats, there are the elastic bands and elec dehorners that burn the young horns off. I have no experience with those.

The black goop you were smearing on was most likely refined or raw pine tar. It's primary use is to stop blood oozing even after cauterization or blood stop powder, and to prevent fly problems. It's still sold and used today as a wound protection for cattle and horses.
One trick many many cattle producers use if they encounter a really persistant bleeder, is to pull the vessel/vein etc out with a pair of pliers, and I have seen vets do it. Just jerk it out. This pops the vein further down in the sinus area, where the bleeding soon clots off and stops. I don't recommend doing this if you are not very very familiar with dehorning practices. It may not even be applicable or practical with goats.

In some places, a vet will sell or subscribe a prescription to producers a 20 ml vial of Lidocaine for pain prevention, but I'll prefer to let the vet administer it. It's referred to as "freezing" the horn material, just as a dentist 'freezes' a bad tooth with lidocaine.

None of us like to dehorn or otherwise cause pain to our livestock, but it is a necessity at times,and IMO, it is far better to discuss it and even post the images we see in this thread than to avoid doing so.  This is a learning media, and we would be in neglect if we did not teach. SBC did the right thing posting the information and the pictures, and of course also made the correct choice by dehorning Millie.


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 23, 2014)

The pine tar is messy but wonderful as a fly deterrent. The keystone dehorners are the way to go for cattle especially mature animals with mature hornage.


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## Baymule (Mar 24, 2014)

@greybeard it was the Barnes type dehorner, the second picture you posted. As always, your contribution to the thread is informative and teaches me more than I already knew. (which might not be much) LOL


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## Baymule (Mar 24, 2014)

@Southern by choice I started a duct tape thread on TEG. would you please post pics of Millie's duct taped crown of glory on it?

http://www.theeasygarden.com/threads/in-honor-of-journey11-post-duct-tape-pictures.14824/


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## Southern by choice (Mar 24, 2014)

@Baymule I am not a member there but I will gladly send you the pic and you are more than welcome to post it.


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## BlueMoonFarms (Mar 24, 2014)

I just got done reading through this fascinating article and first thing i would like to say is...EW!!!!! Ew ew ew ew ew...*does the ew dance*
Now that I have that out of my system...
Love the ducktape! It reminds me of my Nutmeg and the constant re-wrapping of her horns to keep the PVC pipe on her head.
I am fascinated by the pictures *ewed out by them to...* and the healing process. Thank you for documenting it 
Will you be posting more pictures as the horns continue to heel?


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## Baymule (Mar 25, 2014)

@Southern by choice thanks for permission to post on TEG. I copied and posted the pics along with a link to your post. I warned about graphic posts, so no one would get blind sided. We have an animal forum on TEG also, as most of us have some form of animals along with our gardens.


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## rebelINny (Apr 1, 2014)

BlueMoonFarms said:


> I just got done reading through this fascinating article and first thing i would like to say is...EW!!!!! Ew ew ew ew ew...*does the ew dance*
> Now that I have that out of my system...
> Love the ducktape! It reminds me of my Nutmeg and the constant re-wrapping of her horns to keep the PVC pipe on her head.
> I am fascinated by the pictures *ewed out by them to...* and the healing process. Thank you for documenting it
> Will you be posting more pictures as the horns continue to heel?



 My sentiment exactly lol


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## Dillo (Nov 23, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Sorry this has taken so long to post...
> 
> First PLEASE let me say this REALLY was a very difficult decision and I hope those reading are able to separate the horn debate from this topic. I have no problems with any of our horned goats and this IMO was absolutely necessary for the safety of my family as well as all the other animals. Some may say if the goat is that mean put her in the freezer.
> Well she is a very sweet goat with humans and with other animals she "likes". At 2 years of age and a great producer as well as a very loved goat I could not see that as an option until others had been exhausted. I couldn't see shortening her life by 10 years because of pain she might endure for a day or two. BTW she has needed no pain meds. She had one (shot) before we left the vets and that's it.
> ...


Hi southern by choice. Thanks for this great piece of info. 
 We just banded our 1 year old mini nubian buck because his disbudding was done incorrectly by the vet and he grew horns! After 10 days, today they finally have come off, with the exposed sinus holes like you've shown and not too much blood lose, but still some. As he was quite stressed we picked him up and put him in the milking stand so I could clean it up as best I can. It's now covered up pretty much like your Millie and has been sprayed with antibacterial/iodine solution. He's penned away in a small stable area to keep him quiet. He's eaten fruit and a bit of hay, but I'm assuming he's got a massive headache? Are you giving regular antibiotics and pain injections? How long until this hole closes over, and how often do I change the bandage? Your advice would be appreciated. I'm worried that he won't make it, cause stress can sometimes kill. He's our big baby and love him to bits. I know we've done the right thing, but I want his recovery to be 100% too. Thanks, and hope to hear soon. Dillo.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 23, 2014)

Dillo said:


> Hi southern by choice. Thanks for this great piece of info.
> We just banded our 1 year old mini nubian buck because his disbudding was done incorrectly by the vet and he grew horns! After 10 days, today they finally have come off, with the exposed sinus holes like you've shown and not too much blood lose, but still some. As he was quite stressed we picked him up and put him in the milking stand so I could clean it up as best I can. It's now covered up pretty much like your Millie and has been sprayed with antibacterial/iodine solution. He's penned away in a small stable area to keep him quiet. He's eaten fruit and a bit of hay, but I'm assuming he's got a massive headache? Are you giving regular antibiotics and pain injections? How long until this hole closes over, and how often do I change the bandage? Your advice would be appreciated. I'm worried that he won't make it, cause stress can sometimes kill. He's our big baby and love him to bits. I know we've done the right thing, but I want his recovery to be 100% too. Thanks, and hope to hear soon. Dillo.



Wow- seems like forever ago... but I will try to recall.
I believe we gave another CD&T at time of surgery. 
We were sent home with Banamine (painkiller- inj) and told to give anti-biotics I am thinking Duramycin ...if I recall correctly we ended up not giving either. She came out of sedation fine and I simply had a check about NOT giving her any anti- biotics... so I didn't. She never skipped a beat.
Thankfully I listened to that "check"... as Millie was pregnant. We didn't think the breeding took or we would never have done the surgery... but ended up it did take and out popped twins in April!

In your case an antibiotic I would think best. I would  check with your vet for kind/dosage. As well as with painkiller.

As far as cleaning and bandaging. We changed bandages 1x week.
We cleaned with warm water and a cloth to sop up the sinus junk. Iodine would be fine, we never needed more than warm water.
We did load the top up with triple anti-biotic ointment, gauze (non-stick), more gauze and then medical tape, covered with duct tape. Surprisingly she was fine for the bandage changing... still took 2 people though to keep everything in place. She was all healed up by 8 weeks. The last few were "pin-holes". The outside of the bandage may getgross but as long as the inside is clean you are good. Must be kept DRY. If it gets wet change right away.

We have a buck with the ugliest scurs, the breeder never has success on disbudding their bucks- we didn't know that at the time- LOL... anyway his are not soft wiggly but 3 inch horn nubs that are huge. The one grows awkward... we simply use a gigli wire to keep it in check. With him it would honestly be for cosmetic reasons... and not worth the risk. The base of the horns are massive... those holes would be huge. Also the best time is winter when it is cold so no fly strike... yet that is when he is in rut... I really think it would get infected with all the pee and rubbing etc. 
We have left his.

You may want to add some pro-biotics. Stress can cause so many issues. Millie never really stressed, after 2 days in a stall we put her in a small field then back in general population. 
LOL she didn't know she didn't have her horns.. and tried to use them...she figured out she didn't have her weapons anymore .
All the goats and LGD's followed her everywhere trying to figure out what was wrong. Yeah, she was taken down a peg or two!

Hope your boy heals up quickly!


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## Dillo (Nov 23, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Wow- seems like forever ago... but I will try to recall.
> I believe we gave another CD&T at time of surgery.
> We were sent home with Banamine (painkiller- inj) and told to give anti-biotics I am thinking Duramycin ...if I recall correctly we ended up not giving either. She came out of sedation fine and I simply had a check about NOT giving her any anti- biotics... so I didn't. She never skipped a beat.
> Thankfully I listened to that "check"... as Millie was pregnant. We didn't think the breeding took or we would never have done the surgery... but ended up it did take and out popped twins in April!
> ...


Thanks for that information. Fantastic! I'm going to take our boy to the vet this afternoon, to get a proper clean out and long lasting antibiotics/painkillers. These holes are quite large which worries me more, plus my daughter isn't good with anything gory! He was quite stressed when it happened too which hasn't helped,because I know what stress can do. Some breeders recommend to keep them open with a stocking over the head to allow air etc. through and sinus blockages out? But, unfortunately we're just coming into the warmer weather, so I'm a bit concerned about fly's and infection from dust and dirt. I guess different stuff works for everyone, but I wont be putting any of my goats through this again. I'll make certain disbuddings are done right from the get go.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2014)

Banding is a very painful way of removing horns. 
I would not recommend a nylon. The dressing needs to be dry but underneath with the anti biotic ointment it will be moist and promote healing. 
What is really funny is when you are changing the dressing and wiping snot out of the holes... and then they sneeze. 
If the scabbing over is to dry and crackly then they want to scratch their head on something and that is not good!

If you notice scurs after a disbudding  simply get to them asap. Usually a mild sedative and a reburn is all it takes.
Scurs are very common with bucks, bucks are harder to do.


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## Dillo (Nov 25, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Banding is a very painful way of removing horns.
> I would not recommend a nylon. The dressing needs to be dry but underneath with the anti biotic ointment it will be moist and promote healing.
> What is really funny is when you are changing the dressing and wiping snot out of the holes... and then they sneeze.
> If the scabbing over is to dry and crackly then they want to scratch their head on something and that is not good!
> ...



Our boy is very reluctant to let us near his head now. He'll let me scratch his nose and cheeks and back of neck, but the moment he thinks we're going near the top, he moves away pretty quickly. The vet had to sedate him to try and change dressing. He is still in our stable by himself, and can see the others through the door. We give him a little walk to stretch his legs during the day. Might wait till the end of this week before I put him in a small adjoining paddock to see how he goes. Very dry and hot here so lots of dirt! Vet said not to try and clean anything out, as long as it's plugged and not bleeding that's good. Gave him painkillers and long acting antibiotics plus we redid vaccination and vitamin shots. Hope we're doing it right?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 25, 2014)

Our vet told us to try and NOT do the dressings any more often they a week apart. Said changing too often allows for bacteria and increased chance of infection. We stuck with 1x week. I imagine we could have gone longer. The one thing you can do, which I agree with your vet, is to smell the top of his head. If you smell any odor get it off and change that dressing. 
You may want to add some probiotics since he has had some potent anti-biotics and the stress also... just always a good idea IMO. 
I'd watch him and if he seems more depressed  than he may be missing the other goats. Sometimes keeping them separate can be more stressful, only you know your goat. 
I know it is tough but you did the right thing. He will be sensitive for awhile I imagine. Millie loves us to scratch there now... it seems to "itch" a lot.


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## Alibo (Aug 2, 2015)

New to goats and I have been getting all kinds of questions from family about this very topic. Thanks for the info and great pics (I am a visual learner). I am going to hang on to this thread so I can show the fam next time they ask about horns in general.


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## misfitmorgan (May 20, 2016)

Any pics of millie all healed up?


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## Southern by choice (May 20, 2016)

Sure, I will get some and put them up.


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## misfitmorgan (May 21, 2016)

awesome....i didnt even know horn removal was an option after like 4months old. We had a goregous Alpine doe that we sold with her buddy because she was also sharpening her horns and beating up the other goats, she is the only one we ever had a problem with. No human aggression or anything but she would knock the other goats in the side and try to hook up into their guts with her horns. I'm sure i would have gotten her de-horned if i could not find her a home with just her buddy and her.


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## cteague (Jun 17, 2016)

I know this is an older post. But u can dehorn them when they are older?? I was told it would kill them.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 17, 2016)

Millie is alive and kicking! Or should I say kiddin' 
Her 2 month old doe is 42lbs!

Usually it does NOT kill them but can be problematic at certain times of year. Best to do it in fall/winter where flystrike will not be an issue.


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## cteague (Jun 17, 2016)

This is very interesting. Glad she is ok!


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## Carla D (Nov 9, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Sorry this has taken so long to post...
> 
> First PLEASE let me say this REALLY was a very difficult decision and I hope those reading are able to separate the horn debate from this topic. I have no problems with any of our horned goats and this IMO was absolutely necessary for the safety of my family as well as all the other animals. Some may say if the goat is that mean put her in the freezer.
> Well she is a very sweet goat with humans and with other animals she "likes". At 2 years of age and a great producer as well as a very loved goat I could not see that as an option until others had been exhausted. I couldn't see shortening her life by 10 years because of pain she might endure for a day or two. BTW she has needed no pain meds. She had one (shot) before we left the vets and that's it.
> ...


Thank you. I do have little bit better idea now what goes on and why it’s important to do it when they are really young versus later in life.


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## Carla D (Nov 16, 2018)

hilarie said:


> OK, yeah, William's "defects" (I love how medicine depersonalizes things, don't you?) were a lot bigger than Millie's.  How big, you ask?  This was a week after his surgery:
> View attachment 2211


Thank you for this picture. I just had 8 almost seven week old bucklings surgically dehorned. I was very curious about what to expect with my little guys.


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## Mike CHS (Nov 16, 2018)

Every time I see pictures like that I'm surprised that they seem to heal so well.


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## Carla D (Nov 16, 2018)

Mike CHS said:


> Every time I see pictures like that I'm surprised that they seem to heal so well.


I’m really surprised as well. I’m not looking forward to when the scab/cap/whatever comes off. I’m pretty nervous about it. I am hoping that since a 2 year old doe made such a great recovery my young bucks can heal just as well, if not quicker because they are so young.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 16, 2018)

Carla D said:


> Thank you for this picture. I just had 8 almost seven week old bucklings surgically dehorned. I was very curious about what to expect with my little guys.


It looks like they were able to burn and scoop. It doesn't appear that the sinuses are open - maybe its the pic. But that is great if it wasn't open.


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## Carla D (Nov 17, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> It looks like they were able to burn and scoop. It doesn't appear that the sinuses are open - maybe its the pic. But that is great if it wasn't open.


 My new vet seemed to think they were cut and burned. But who knows other than the vet who did the procedure. I’m hoping you are right about them possibly not having open sinuses. But one of the goats does have a pretty small spot that looks to be pretty deep. I’m not eager to see if the area gets bigger or opens up. I was told ttto take the bandages off the next day and leave them unwrapped. Now I’m trying to figure out how I’m going to keep the sites clean and dry. Could it be as simple as applying blue coat after gentle cleaning and do that as often as needed?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

if there is any open hole into the sinus it should be covered - we did triple anti biotics ointment and wrapped the head until completely closed.


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## Carla D (Nov 17, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> if there is any open hole into the sinus it should be covered - we did triple anti biotics ointment and wrapped the head until completely closed.


Thank you. I will inspect all of them. If they start to open up I will make sure they are clean and then cover them.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 20, 2018)

I was just scrolling through some pics and wanted to share.

Here is Millie, she is going to be 7 this winter 
(bald spot on her nose is from a hayfeeder)

Her head looks great.








(Posted for SBC)


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## Baymule (Dec 20, 2018)

I followed this thread years ago, when posted. I was amazed that Millie was_ sharpening_  her horns! Who does that?  She is quite the smarty pants. It's nice to see how she is doing.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 20, 2018)

I know, right!?! 

Taking her horns was the absolute BEST thing for her. I know some don’t agree with it, but it was worth it. She gets to live her life out with us. She has a good home here. If we didn’t do the dehorning, she would have been turned into dinner. She is calm and doesn’t cause any issues.


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## Baymule (Dec 20, 2018)

She is a good goat and y'all love her. She just got full of herself and was a bully. The right decision was made, look how happy she looks now.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 21, 2018)

You made a decision to keep her as an active productive member of your herd, nothing wrong with that. Thanks for the pics!


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