# I think my little girl is dying.



## dianneS (Mar 23, 2011)

I posted on here before about my little goat and her strange behavior.

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=8925

The vet is convinced that its heart disease, and after today, I tend to agree with him.  She's having another one of her fits and  Little Bernadette's lungs are really congested today and I think I'm losing her.

She has had these repeated episodes since she was tiny (she's almost two now) and she has always snapped out of it and come around to 100% normal within minutes.  The last episode lasted several hours.  Today, she's not coming around and getting worse than I've ever seen her before.  She's on her side and completely limp when I pick her up.  She's breathing very shallow and I can feel the fluid in her lungs as well as hear it with a stethascope.

I gave her a dose of banamine, just like last time to try and keep her comfortable.  She's calm, but wasting away.  I thought that last time, but she bounced back, so she could surprise me, but this time I doubt it.  I'm just trying to keep her as comfortable as possible until she passes or rebounds.  I just never know with this goat?

Just thought I'd share.  I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.


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## jodief100 (Mar 23, 2011)




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## freemotion (Mar 23, 2011)

Poor little one.  Poor you!    She knows she is loved.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 23, 2011)

Aww..  Sorry to hear that.


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## lilhill (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear this.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Mar 23, 2011)




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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2011)

Her eyes are open and her heart is beating hard but her breathing is so shallow.  She's comfortable or at least doesn't appear to be in any pain right now.

I have to wonder if she'll have a nice rest like last time and bounce right back?  That would be nice, but at this point it would be a relief if she would pass.  I know that this sounds terrible, but to constantly wonder when and if one of these episodes is going to take her this time or not, is just very stressful.


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## jessica117 (Mar 23, 2011)

So sorry to hear that.  You've done all you can.  Hope she pulls through.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 23, 2011)




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## Patchesnposies (Mar 23, 2011)

So sorry to hear about your little girl.

Prayers for her and prayers for you.

Deb


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2011)

Well, she's still hanging in there.  I called the vet and he's coming out tomorrow... if she's still with us, which I'm beginning to think she will be.

The vet advised me to get her as warm as I can and I've got her covered in blankets and heating pads and she's in front of a space heater.

I just gave her some warm molasses water in a syringe and she swallowed it willingly.

She's not able to stand and her body is stiff and shaking, so maybe it is a seizure?  I asked the vet and he said her low body temp could cause her to be stiffened up like this too.

All I can do at this point is watch and wait.


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## Patchesnposies (Mar 23, 2011)

I'll continue to pray and I hope you will keep us posted to what the vet says and for wisdom for you to know what to do for your girl.

I know she knows how much you love her.


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## Roll farms (Mar 23, 2011)

Not much else to say....I hope whatever happens, you find comfort in the fact that you took better care of her than most, and she was a very lucky girl to have you.


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2011)

Her temp is up to 99.7 now, but she's still not behaving much differently.  I've got her off the floor in an elevated dog bed wrapped in heating pads and hoping for the best.


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## elevan (Mar 23, 2011)




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## barredcountrycoop (Mar 23, 2011)

yeah soooo sorry. definatley sounds like you've done everything you can. I hope it works out well for you.


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## PattySh (Mar 24, 2011)

It's obvious how much you love her. Rest easy whatever happens knowing that you were awesome with her.


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2011)

Well, she's still with us this morning.  She took two huge poops during the night.  All clumpy, I'm sure from laying down and not pooping at all for hours and hours.

She still can't stand up and is even having a hard time holding her head up.  Its not that she's weak, its like she has no control of her body, like a seizure or a stroke.

The vet is coming today, he can't get here soon enough!


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## ksalvagno (Mar 24, 2011)




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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2011)

I moved my little girl to the barn and I'm checking her temp every hour. So far its holding at 102.8.  She's got a sweater on and I've made her a nest out of thick straw.  She has hay in front of her but hasn't eaten any, however she has eaten manna-pro goat treats and some grain out of my hand.

Right now, she can't stand or walk and she shakes like a Parkinsons patient.  That's the best way to describe it.  This shaking and inability to walk is a whole new behavior, she's never done anything like this before.  Its never gone on this long before either.

The vet should be here soon.


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## Patchesnposies (Mar 24, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> I moved my little girl to the barn and I'm checking her temp every hour. So far its holding at 102.8.  She's got a sweater on and I've made her a nest out of thick straw.  She has hay in front of her but hasn't eaten any, however she has eaten manna-pro goat treats and some grain out of my hand.
> 
> Right now, she can't stand or walk and she shakes like a Parkinsons patient.  That's the best way to describe it.  This shaking and inability to walk is a whole new behavior, she's never done anything like this before.  Its never gone on this long before either.
> 
> The vet should be here soon.


It really sounds neurological doesn't it?  If it was all of a sudden and had not been happening all along, to some degree....I would wonder if she ate something toxic.

I can't wait for the vet to get there, hopefully he will be able to tell you what is going on with her.

Poor her, poor you.


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## helmstead (Mar 24, 2011)

Sounds like polio to me...


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## redtailgal (Mar 24, 2011)

...............


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm still waiting on the vet.  I was just to the barn to check on her, temp still holding normal.

She's alert, she's eating, she gets excited when she sees her friends, she's just trapped in this body that doesn't work.  She just keeps shaking and bobbing her head, otherwise she's her normal self.  Its really sad and going to be a tough call if I have to make the decision to put her down today or not.

Its just so strange.  These episodes started over a year ago as something so brief, I thought she was just choking on something for a second.  She'd fall down, cry, jump back up and be okay.  Then they escalated into non-stop crying, low-body temp, rapid heart rate and respirations.  I'd bring her inside and within minutes she'd snap out of it and be 100% again.  Now these last two occurences have gone on for hours.  Last one taking all day for her to come around and this one into day two.  Plus now we've got an inability to walk or stand, shaking and muscle stiffness added to the symptoms.

I just don't get it and no one seems to have the answer.  I hope the vet gets here soon.


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2011)

Now my little girl is attempting to stand and walk... not very successfully, but she takes a few shaky steps and lays back down.  She does lay down, she does't fall.  She manages to get from her food to her water and she desperately tries to escape the barn.  She wants back in with the rest of her friends.  If I leave the stall door open, she tries to make a break for it, but then she ends up laying in the mud outside, so I can't allow that.

The vet finally arrived.  He listened to her heart and lungs for a very long time.  He said he hears a significant murmer.  We talked about Polio, listeriosis and seizures, but doesn't feel like its any of those.  He really thinks it is heart.  He's the second vet that thinks its her heart and one other misdiagnosed her as having pneumonia due to the fluid in her chest at the time (possibly due to the heart problem).

For now the little girl is slowly showing progress and I may have to hand feed and water her for a while.  The vet took some blood but thinks the results will be inconclusive.  He's doing some research and getting back to me regarding treatment protocol for goats with heart disease and we're going to go from there.

At this point, she doesn't look like she's going to die just yet.


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## PattySh (Mar 24, 2011)

Glad to hear she's back on her feet and doing a little better. She's lucky your her "mama"!


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2011)

Well this morning her current condition is not much improved.  She only walks (or tries to) in order to get from her food to her water.  The vet said she may not be eating or drinking much, so I might have to give her water through a syringe, very carefully.  Her little head bobs around so much I don't know if she's able to drink on her own.  She's still not eating hay and I don't know why?  Only pellets. 

The vet did give her a shot of a steriod yesterday.  It doesn't seem as though its helped.  I don't know what to do if she never gets on her feet again.  I can't have a goat in a wheel chair.  She really does look like a person with parkinsons.  That's the best way to describe it.

The vet couldn't really explain why her temp has dropped so low in the past and was surprised that she survived the low body temps at all.  She's been as low as 87.7 already and came back up to normal after being warmed inside.  She's still holding a normal temp even after a night in the barn.  I don't know what else to do?


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## mistee (Mar 25, 2011)

wishin you luck.. got to admire yours and hers determination!


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## redtailgal (Mar 25, 2011)

......................


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2011)

Well, she's standing and walking most of the time now.  She's able to walk around, but very wobbly.  She isn't laying down much at all.  She stumbled out of the barn this morning and staggered toward her herd.  I thought I would leave her in the yard on the other side of the fence from the other goats, but she wanted to get through that fence so badly.  I put her in with the rest of the herd and she staggered to the water tub and had a few sips.  She's eating hay and grazing.  She did eat a good bit of hay, but now is just nibbling here and there.  Mostly, she just really wants to be with the other goats.  She even tried to play with one of the boys.  She instigated it, even as wobbly as she is.  Her little tail was flicking back and forth and she wanted to head butt him!  Luckily, the herd seems to know that she is weak and they're being gentle with her.  At least I hope so.  

I can't wait to hear from the vet and find out what he's researched and what the next course of action might be.


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## Patchesnposies (Mar 25, 2011)

Glad she has made it this far and is still with you wobbly though she is.  Brought a tear to my eye imagining her trying to play.  The will to live is so strong!


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2011)

She's still in the pasture with the other goats.  Her belly is filling up and she's eating a lot.  She's getting around better, but still not great.  She just wants to be with her herd so badly that she's just pushing herself to keep up with them. 

I'm going to hand feed her some pellets tonight, maybe give her some more nutri drench and some goat balancer.  She'll spend the night in population with the rest of the goats, that seems to be where she is the happiest and it seems to lift her spirits to be with them.


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## dianneS (Mar 26, 2011)

She hasn't improved at all since yesterday.  Still wobbling around.  Its distressing to see her like this.  I wish the vet would get back to me with his treatment protocol.

I found a thread on another forum about a goat with a severe heart murmur.  It sounded just like my girl.  She was medicated with human heart medication.  

I just wish I knew what to do?  Keep trying to save her, or put her down?  She's okay other than the wobbling, but its just so pitiful looking.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 27, 2011)

Hoping the vet calls for you soon!!! I am sorry she and You are going thru this.  I commend you for all the efforts you are putting into her.  I would feel the same.  But hopefully the vet will come up with something.  It would be fabulous if you could get her on meds and give her a better quality of life.  

Hang in there!! I know your doing all for her you can!! I pray for a excellant outcome for you both!!


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## dianneS (Mar 27, 2011)

Still no word from the vet yet, but it is sunday.  She's still not improved beyond the shakiness and the wobbly walk.  She's eating and drinking and she tries to run when the other goats run, but it looks like its a lot of effort.  Its just so sad to look at.


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## Patchesnposies (Mar 27, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> She hasn't improved at all since yesterday.  Still wobbling around.  Its distressing to see her like this.  I wish the vet would get back to me with his treatment protocol.
> 
> I found a thread on another forum about a goat with a severe heart murmur.  It sounded just like my girl.  She was medicated with human heart medication.
> 
> I just wish I knew what to do?  Keep trying to save her, or put her down?  She's okay other than the wobbling, but its just so pitiful looking.


It would be wonderful if human heart medication could help her.  Poor little girl.


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## dianneS (Mar 27, 2011)

Patchesnposies said:
			
		

> dianneS said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm starting to wonder if its really her heart?  The more I watch her, the more I think it looks neurological.  I just read something about prolonged seizures (more than 3-5 minutes) causing fluid in the lungs which could be where the vet is getting the idea that its heart (and given us the false diagnosis of pneumonia in the past).

It sure looks like a neurological disorder although the vet says he hears a significant heart murmur.  But maybe the murmur is only part of the problem?


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## Patchesnposies (Mar 27, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> Patchesnposies said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was my first thought in an earlier post, based on your description.  This is really hard.  Wish your vet would get back to you.  Have you shared any of your thoughts about this with him?


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## dianneS (Mar 27, 2011)

> That was my first thought in an earlier post, based on your description.  This is really hard.  Wish your vet would get back to you.  Have you shared any of your thoughts about this with him?


I did mention seizures to him and he didn't say that it was _not _a seizure, but he didn't say it _was _either?

He did check her pupils with his flashlight and her pupils weren't contracting and were very dialated.  He is aware that something neurological is a possibility.  I just hope he remembers that when doing his research.  I don't want to focus too much on the heart and miss a possible brain/nerve condition?


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## dianneS (Mar 27, 2011)

A lot of her symptoms (this time around) do seem a lot like polio, but the vet ruled that out for some reason?  Perhaps because she's always recovered in the past without medication?

Could it be possible for a goat to have a mild 'attack' of polio and recover on its own?

I may just treat her for polio/thiamin deficiency anyway and see what happens.  I mean it can't hurt, right?


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## Ariel301 (Mar 27, 2011)

Has she been tested for CAE? I was reading an article last night about sometimes an adult goat getting a neurological form of CAE that shows up as paralysis, circling/stumbling, pneumonia, head tilting/facial paralysis and twitching--instead of the normal arthritic adult form. Just throwing something out there, I guess it's worth a try, right? 

No, it wouldn't hurt to give her some vitamin B for possible polio. I would suggest it. 

Poor girl, I hope you figure it out and get her some relief.


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## dianneS (Mar 27, 2011)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Has she been tested for CAE? I was reading an article last night about sometimes an adult goat getting a neurological form of CAE that shows up as paralysis, circling/stumbling, pneumonia, head tilting/facial paralysis and twitching--instead of the normal arthritic adult form. Just throwing something out there, I guess it's worth a try, right?
> 
> No, it wouldn't hurt to give her some vitamin B for possible polio. I would suggest it.
> 
> Poor girl, I hope you figure it out and get her some relief.


I did suggest CAE to the vet, so I hope he takes that into consideration as well.  I think I will supplement her with thiamine and see what happens?


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## dianneS (Mar 28, 2011)

I went to the feed store today, no B-complex injectable in stock.  I gave her some red cell today and I bought some human B1 that I'm giving to her.

I can't really say she's improved just yet, but she's getting around a little better and seems a little more coordinated today.  Its just ever so slight though.

I think I'm going to give her red cell just once a day and the thiamine capsules several times a day and see what happens?


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 28, 2011)

Dianne,  I am not sure where you are located, but if you are within a few hours of us, I'd be happy to share our Vitamin B Complex.  We are in MIssouri, within an hour of the following cities:  Jefferson City, Lake Ozark, Rolla.  I know it is a long shot, but never know so I thought I'd see.

It sounds like you're doing everything you can and most would not bother so for that, she is extremely lucky.


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## dianneS (Mar 28, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> Dianne,  I am not sure where you are located, but if you are within a few hours of us, I'd be happy to share our Vitamin B Complex.  We are in MIssouri, within an hour of the following cities:  Jefferson City, Lake Ozark, Rolla.  I know it is a long shot, but never know so I thought I'd see.
> 
> It sounds like you're doing everything you can and most would not bother so for that, she is extremely lucky.


Thanks so much for the offer, I'm in Pennsylvania. 

I'm giving her oral Thiamine every couple of hours or so.  I'm shoving the pills down her throat and she's not too happy about that.  I've tried mixing the pills in to all sorts of things, but she won't have it.  I even tried maple syrup on some grain with the capsules sprinkled over it... nope, she didn't like the sticky feel of the maple syrup.  She won't eat yogurt, bread or applesauce.  She only like goat treats and animal crackers and right now she's being really picky, only eating goat treats and a few pellets of goat balancer.

I'm being careful with the red cell since I don't really think its a selenium issue and I don't want to over do the selenium.  She gets selenium in her free choice minerals as well as her goat balancer.  I'm just going to keep pushing the thiamine for now and see what happens.  I may give her a shot of penicillin tonight to just for the heck of it.


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## dianneS (Mar 28, 2011)

Well, she's had a lot of oral Thiamine today, but who knows if it will do anything?    She had one big dose of red cell and I'll give her a slightly smaller dose tomorrow, but I'm being careful with the red cell.

I put her to bed tonight with another 500 mg of human oral Thiamine, some liquid (about 3000 mcg) B12, a dose of Banamine, a dose of probios, and a shot of penacillin g.  She ate a good bit of goat balancer this evening and began chowing down on her hay.  I'm really hoping to see some progress in the morning.  

She is making very, very slow progress, just gradually gaining more and more coordination.  She still shakes and is a bit wobbly, but I don't know if she's getting "better" or if she's just learning how to live with this new affliction?  She's chasing and head-butting cats again, or at least trying to.  She's not as quick as she used to be, but she's trying.  :/


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Mar 29, 2011)




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## helmstead (Mar 29, 2011)

Red Cell doesn't have enough selenium in it to cause toxicity...it does have a LOT of iron in it though.  You can give Red Cell for a week at the full dose perfectly safely.

I said polio several posts back.  I've dealt with polio and listeriosis more than once, and this sounds just like it.  Any digestive upset can cause it, and theoretically if it doesn't get BAD, then ending the digestive upset that's causing the thiamine uptake inhibition could reverse the symptoms.

_HOWEVER, if it does get bad...damage to the nervous system can be permanent._

Vets OFTEN misdiagnose goats for pneumonia, and it totally makes sense that he could misdiagnose a heart murmur too.  Several things cause pneumonia-like symptoms - entero being one - because thoracic fluid retention is fast in hooved animals that are down, bloated or otherwise compromised.  Entero, BTW, is one cause of polio.

Treatment I've recommended for polio is LARGE doses of Thiamine injectable, banamine for anti inflamitory, and Pen G.  Also, drenching the animal with a slurry of blended beet pulp or watered down alfalfa pellets to give the rumen something to grind on and restore gut motility.


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

I'm wondering if she may have permanent damage to the nervous system?  

She isn't dramatically improved yet this morning, but she keeps making very slight improvement.  She's not as shaky and she's doing better walking and even trying to run, but I just don't know if that's a sign of improvement or she's just learning how to get around in this shaky little body?

I'm going to get my hands on some injectable B-complex today if I have to travel to get it.  I'm going to keep up the pen g and the red cell too.  I guess I'll continue with the banamine as well.

I'm just not sure why in the world the vet ruled out polio?  Her pupils didn't respond to light and were very dialated.  He even acknowledged that it looked as if it were a seizure.  His only reasoning was that "Polio is just a Thiamine deficiency."  Well duh, but what made him think she isn't deficient in Thiamine?  He also said that because these "attacks" have been so brief in the past and she bounced back to normal so quickly without treatment, that it couldn't be polio.  But couldn't she just be an exception to that rule?  Hasn't this guy ever seen 'House' or 'Mystery Diagnosis'?

I'm going to continue to treat as if it were polio and see what happens.  I've just got to get that injectable B today.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 29, 2011)

I've been trying to think about why a heart problem could lead to seemingly-neurological symptoms..  The only think I could really think of would be swings in blood pressure and vasovagal response, etc., but none of them really struck me as anything that would drag on as this has..   

Then something hit me...what if it's cardioembolic stroke?  I know sometimes when there's a problem with the heart (be it atrial fibrillation, valve prolapse, heart attack, etc) there can be blood that's just kinda 'hanging out' in the heart instead of being sucked in and forced right back out, and this uncirculated blood can begin to clot..  If a piece of that clot breaks loose, my understanding is that it goes pretty much straight to the brain via the carotid artery and causes a stroke..

And based on how you've described her symptoms -- seizures, trembling, weakness, etc -- they kinda sound like stroke symptoms to me..  

Did your vet mention stroke as a possibility?  If not, I'd consider mentioning it to them to see what they say..  If it's an 'aha' moment, they may even be able to employ some treatments (to help prevent a reoccurance, if nothing else) that they'd normally use for other animals..

I could be totally off the mark, of course, but...well, was just thinkin about it and that hit me, so I figured it might be worth mentioning..


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

I actually did think stroke too.  It sure looks like it with the way she's been acting.

I didn't think of it at the time the vet was here, but maybe I'll call him and suggest it.

I had an old barn cat get dumped off here a year ago and one day she was acting just like this goat.  I called a vet to come out and look at her and I said I thought she had a stroke and she needed to be put down.  The vet said "what makes you think its a stroke?"  I thought, well look at her!  He listened to her heart and said it was a heart problem, but made no connection to the heart causing a stroke.  I don't know why, because I thought that they were connected too?  Anyway, I still think that cat had a stroke and she was acting just like this goat.

I have been trying to locate injectable B complex in the meantime and there is absolutley none to be found anywhere!  The last feed store said that they are never out of it and if everyone is sold out then it must be a vendor problem.


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## helmstead (Mar 29, 2011)

The FDA pulled the license on B Complex, it's not available right now.  You need injectable Thiamine from a vet, anyway.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 29, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> Thanks so much for the offer, I'm in Pennsylvania.


I have an extra bottle of the Vitamin B Complex if you want it.  It is 100ml.

If you want to PM me an address, I'll ship some to you overnight if possible.  I am not sure of the regulations of the mail system but I don't think that will be an issue.  

Hopefully you'll find the High Potency Vitamin B Complex (a lot more thiamine in it) in your area, but if not, know that this is an option.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 29, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> The FDA pulled the license on B Complex, it's not available right now.  You need injectable Thiamine from a vet, anyway.


Yikes!  Do you know why??  No one around here could tell me why it was all on backorder and not available.  But I went out and bought up the few extras I could find when I learned it was an issue.


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

> what if it's cardioembolic stroke?


Could it even just be brain damage caused by a lack of blood/oxygen to the brain?

Maybe during these attacks, she's not getting enough blood to her brain and since the last two were so prolonged, perhaps they did permanent damage?  Or caused a stroke?

The vet did detect a very severe heart murmur?  I was just reading that in people with atrial fibrilation, increase of stroke is dramatically increased.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 29, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> > what if it's cardioembolic stroke?
> 
> 
> Could it even just be brain damage caused by a lack of blood/oxygen to the brain?
> ...


A cardioembolic stroke is a type of ischemic stroke (versus a hemorrhagic stroke)..  And if we're right about it, then what you suggest would be exactly what happened -- the heart (cardio) formed a clot (embolus...hence 'cardioembolic') which broke off, travelled to the brain, and plugged a vessel, which caused there to be a lack of blood/oxygen (ischemia) to that part of the brain..

I know that one reason a *person* can have a murmer is because of a mitral valve prolapse, and valve problems predispose to cardioembolic stroke..

On the bright side, if that's what we're looking at, data from dogs suggests that they generally make a full recovery over the course of several weeks..  The key, then, would seem to be in preventing reoccurance..  Usually, that means blood-thinners..

The problem is that if it *was* a stroke, but was a hemorrhagic stroke instead of an ischemic stroke, blood thinners would actually increase the risk of reoccurrance..  

Not sure how to differentiate the two clinically...as in, without MRIs and CAT scans and all that good stuff.

ETA -- actually, not even sure how to positively nail it down to a stroke without MRIs and stuff, let alone differentiating between two different types of stroke..  :/


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## kenfromMaine (Mar 29, 2011)

Hi DianneS.
Could it be possible that the goat ate something? I read your post "I had an old barn cat get dumped off here a year ago and one day she was acting just like this goat." maybe a poisonous plant or some type of chemical? just a thought good luck with your goat.
Ken


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

kenfromMaine said:
			
		

> Hi DianneS.
> Could it be possible that the goat ate something? I read your post "I had an old barn cat get dumped off here a year ago and one day she was acting just like this goat." maybe a poisonous plant or some type of chemical? just a thought good luck with your goat.
> Ken


No, we've ruled out anything poisonous.  

The old cat that was dumped here had obvious health problems from day one.  Someone dumped her because they didn't want to deal with her anymore.  I wonder if she was being treated for a heart condition at some point and the owners couldn't afford the upkeep?  She was an old, old cat though.


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

> On the bright side, if that's what we're looking at, data from dogs suggests that they generally make a full recovery over the course of several weeks..  The key, then, would seem to be in preventing reoccurance..  Usually, that means blood-thinners..


I did read up on stroke in dogs and its encouraging that they do seem to make a full recovery.  I wonder if that's why my little girl is slowly and gradually regaining her coordination and she's not shaking as much?  Perhaps she needs an Occupational Therapist? 

I wonder how we'd know how to medicate her?  This must be why its taking the vet so long to get back to me, he's got a lot of research to do!

As for the Thiamine I've given her, would she not react to oral Thiamine _at all _(if that is what she needs)?  I would call the vet for thiamine, but I don't want to insult him by questioning his diagnosis.  This is the _third _vet who's said heart disease.  I guess another reason he doesn't think its polio is because the attacks come on so suddenly, she's never off her feed, never listless or depressed and never had any rumen problems or digestive issues.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 29, 2011)

Why not approach it as can't be a bad thing to do while we are researching the heart problems. Then maybe he won't be opposed to the thiamine.


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Why not approach it as can't be a bad thing to do while we are researching the heart problems. Then maybe he won't be opposed to the thiamine.


Yeah, I could try that angle.

I was just out to check on her and I called the goats to the fence and she "galloped" for the first time.  She's gone from only being able to take a few steps before laying back down, to walking very wobbly and goose-stepping with her front legs, to trotting wobbly, to galloping and she's starting to try and climb things again.  The fine tremors in her head that make her look like a parkinsons patient are getting less and less noticeable.  So I guess she's making progress but just ever so gradual.

Since reading more on heart-defects in dogs (and I found a thread on another forum regarding one goat with a heart defect) she certainly fits the "not thrifty" and "stunted growth" description of an animal with a congenital heart defect.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 29, 2011)

I've no experience with thiamin or polio but I have read of instances where, at the first sign of star gazing the goat has been given people thiamin like what you've been doing.  And it seemed to help according to their report.  I suppose it's completely possible that there wasn't a thiamin issue to begin with - but I would certainly try it if it were my only option.  I don't think it's useless - it may be absorbed at a slower percentage and rate but I would think it would still deliver SOME of it.

I'm so glad she seems to be improving!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Mar 29, 2011)

Don't you wish there was some magic wand to wave and have the answer vs all the guessing and what ifs?  

So glad to hear she is improving!!


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## dianneS (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, she is still improving very slowly.  Tonight she gobbled down her pellets and goat balancer and wanted more!  She is able to eat more efficiently because her little head isn't bobbing all over the place anymore.  Her belly is finally filling up and she's got that nice big rumen once again.  She's eating a lot more hay and grass too.  I really think since she's gained better control of her head and her body that she's able to ingest more food now.

She gallops to the fence with the rest of the goats when she thinks food is coming, but you can still tell she's not 100%.  She's got a little bit of that wobble left and she's a bit slower, but she's looking a lot better and seems perfectly happy.


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## Patchesnposies (Mar 29, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> Well, she is still improving very slowly.  Tonight she gobbled down her pellets and goat balancer and wanted more!  She is able to eat more efficiently because her little head isn't bobbing all over the place anymore.  Her belly is finally filling up and she's got that nice big rumen once again.  She's eating a lot more hay and grass too.  I really think since she's gained better control of her head and her body that she's able to ingest more food now.
> 
> She gallops to the fence with the rest of the goats when she thinks food is coming, but you can still tell she's not 100%.  She's got a little bit of that wobble left and she's a bit slower, but she's looking a lot better and seems perfectly happy.


I am so glad to hear she is better!  Hopefully she will continue.  Now, to figure out how to keep it from happening again.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Mar 29, 2011)




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## dianneS (Mar 30, 2011)

Okay, now this is just getting nuts.  

I thought I heard the little girl screaming again this morning and thought "this is it, she's leaving us for sure this time".  I ran out to the barn to find her draped over a pile of rocks next to the barn foundation in a horrible contorted position as if she collapsed.  Her eyes were open and sort of rolled back.  I picked her up and she began screaming.  

I took her into a horse stall and laid her in the straw.  I was just going to run inside and call the vet to come out and put her down.... and she jumps up, shakes herself off and looks at me as if nothing is wrong with her.  

I took her temp, its low but not like its been in the past, 100.5, not extremely low for her.  I put her sweater on her.  Gave her some feed and she ate it.  I tried rigging up a heat lamp for her and,  'ssssssssst, pop!' there goes my lamp, shorted out or something.     I took her outside (its warmer outside than in the barn today) opened the gate to the other goats and she trots inside and starts munching some hay.  

This is just crazy.  I'm completely exhausted by this point.  I wish we had some answers.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 30, 2011)

If your vet can hear a heart murmur then there is no questioning that. Of course who knows what else is going on in that little body of hers. At least she is getting a great quality of life no matter how long or short it is. But I know how much it can pull on the heartstrings and emotions. Those are the ones you get most attached to.


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## dianneS (Mar 30, 2011)

The vet allowed me to listen to her heart murmur and it was pretty obvious, even to me.  It was a wooshing sound between the lub-dubs.

Now she's laying next to the LGD and chewing her cud.  Even her head is not wobbling as much as yesterday.


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## farmchick (Mar 30, 2011)

That crazy goats gonna give YOU a heart attack!


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## jodief100 (Mar 30, 2011)

My niece was having stroke-like symtoms for several months.  It looked like a stroke but just in the lower half of her body.  

They found out it was a heart defect.  Her Aortic Loop had a severe narrowing and blood could not pass through normally.

Maybe something similar is happening with your goat?  

Just a WAG.  I am so sorry for you.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2011)

> Maybe something similar is happening with your goat?


Perhaps it is?  It sure does seem like something physical since she usually comes around without medical intervention.

A friend suggested some homeopathic neurological and heart support that I'm going to try.  It can't hurt.

The vet still hasn't called me, either he is just as baffled as I am or he's been to busy to do much research.  I guess I'll call him?

I really wish that I had some sort of a sedative to give her to calm her down when she's in the throws of one of these fits.  She gets herself so worked up and its so distressing to watch.  I wish I had something on hand to calm her until she either passes, or snaps out of it, whichever comes first.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 31, 2011)

I keep Bach's Rescue Remedy on hand at all times - for people and pets.  It can help calm anxious situations.  I've seen it completely stop panic/anxiety attacks in people.  My husband has a difficult time sleeping when he's stressed out - this relaxes him enough to allow him to sleep.  I used it during pregnancy and during transition in labor.  I've used it with my goats when we transported them here, and also during vet trips.  I've seen it sold in pet catalogs and equine catalogs.  Certainly might be worth trying to give to her.


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## dianneS (Apr 1, 2011)

Well, if I didn't know that my little goat had suffered such a major attack last week, I wouldn't even know there was anything wrong with her today.

Now, because I do know how bad she was just a few days ago I am aware that she still has some very slight tremors but only because I'm looking for that type of thing.  I can still see her head wobbling ever so slightly when she is standing or lying still.

If I didn't have any knowledge of her condition, I'd say she looks like a perfectly normal goat today!

Her coordination is coming back and she's able to run pretty normally now, but she's never been too fast and is always trailing behind the rest of the herd when they run to the fence.

About two days ago she decided to run and hop and skip sideways like the rest of the crew gettin' all silly, and she did trip and fall flat on her face.  I don't think she's quite ready for all that crazy bouncing around yet, but she's certainly improved.  I just wonder how long it will last?


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## ksalvagno (Apr 1, 2011)

Glad to hear she is doing better. At least you know what to look for and what to do if/when she has another attack. It is so hard when you know they have a problem like a heart murmur and their life on this earth is not going to be as long as expected.


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## dianneS (Apr 8, 2011)

She had another attack today.  It seems that damp and rainy days are a trigger.

This time she's not acting like anything neurolgical at all.  She's back to her usual behavior of rapid heart rate, low body temp and rapid breathing.  She's on her feet and walking, no stumbling or trembling this time.

I got to her quickly this time and I think she's going to be okay.  Her temp was 100.5, not too low for her.  She's inside warming up.

I'm trying cayenne pepper on her for heart support.  I didn't know how to get it into her so I opened a capsule and dumped it into some red cell.  I gave that to her in a syringe.

She's looking better.  I don't think this is going to be a "bad one", but its another one


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## ksalvagno (Apr 8, 2011)

Hopefully the pepper will help her. At least it isn't as bad this time.


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## dianneS (Apr 8, 2011)

A few minutes after the cayenne she was totally back to normal.

I just returned her to the barn.  She ate some pellets and then ripped into a pile of hay.  She's got her sweater on though.

This whole ordeal was less than an hour of my time, from the minute I brought her into the house til I put her back out into the goat pen!

I don't know if they cayenne did something or if it was just a coincidence, but she's okay now!


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## Patchesnposies (Apr 8, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> A few minutes after the cayenne she was totally back to normal.
> 
> I just returned her to the barn.  She ate some pellets and then ripped into a pile of hay.  She's got her sweater on though.
> 
> ...


So glad that it isn't as bad as last time.  

Heart issues are a heavy subject for me right now.  My 13 yo son is going in for open heart surgery (his 5th) to repair an enlarged aorta on April 21st.  

If you are a pray-er please pray for Mike.  And for his mom.  (She's a wreck.)

Thanks,

Deb

Just realized that writing about Mike was a total hijack...please forgive me, I'd ask a perfect stranger to pray or send good thoughts at this point.  That's him in my Avatar with his younger brother.


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## dianneS (Apr 8, 2011)

> If you are a pray-er please pray for Mike.  And for his mom.


Absolutely, you are both in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Patchesnposies (Apr 8, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> > If you are a pray-er please pray for Mike.  And for his mom.
> 
> 
> Absolutely, you are both in my thoughts and prayers.


You have no idea, how much I appreciate them.  We almost lost this young man in 2006 and I think I am a bit post traumatic.  He is putting on a brave face...but I know he is dreading it.

Deb


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Apr 8, 2011)

No one worth knowing is going to begrudge you asking for prayers for your son.

You're both in our family's thoughts and prayers.


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## Patchesnposies (Apr 10, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> No one worth knowing is going to begrudge you asking for prayers for your son.
> 
> You're both in our family's thoughts and prayers.


Thank you.  The encouragement and prayer's mean so much to us.


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## dianneS (Apr 11, 2011)

> Thank you.  The encouragement and prayer's mean so much to us.


I hope things are going okay for you and your family, you are in my prayers.   




I heard from my vet today, he stopped by.  He did a lot of research and his advice is to do an ultrasound to either confirm or rule out a heart problem.  If it is the heart, he's not sure we can even medicate for it.  If its not the heart he recommends some type of anti seizure medication.

He listened to her heart again and is still insisting that she has a significant murmur.

We now have to decide if we're going to drive a goat to Philadelphia for an ultrasound or not.  :/


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## dianneS (Apr 16, 2011)

Well, today I found my girl in the very early stages of one of her episodes.  She was just standing, not wanting to eat staring.  I brought her in the house, warmed her up and her temp is normal, but she is not.

She's still in the basement and won't eat or drink.  I tried the cayenne pepper again and it didn't have any effect.  I've given her some nutri-drench and red cell.  

She's not getting any worse, no screaming, no writhing around or falling down, but she's not getting any better either.  She just stands still and stares and if I try to do anything with her she grunts and/or hollars until its over, then she just stands and stares.

I have to go away this evening and I hate to leave her, but there is really nothing I can do for her anyway?


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## elevan (Apr 16, 2011)

Sorry you still don't have the answers


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## Patchesnposies (Apr 16, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Sorry you still don't have the answers


Me too!  Poor little girl.  Do you think she might have a brain tumor?


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## redtailgal (Apr 16, 2011)

................


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## dianneS (Apr 17, 2011)

The vet said that the only other thing it could be other than her heart is a seizure disorder.  He wants me to have the ultrasound done to possibly rule out the heart and then he said he'd treat her for seizures.

I'm thinking I might ask him if we could just try anti-seizure meds without the ultrasound of the heart and see how it goes?

Right now I'm not even able to give much attention to the goats.  They are all pastured with the horses on our highest piece of land.  We were just flooded out yesterday.  The first floor of our house was flooded, the basement of course totally flooded, so I've got a lot of work on my hands and the goats will just have to fend for themselves for a while.  Everyone is safe and sound and has lots of pasture and hay and a dry part of the barn.  I'm just not able to run a goat intensive care unit at this time so I hope the little girl is okay for a while.


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## Patchesnposies (Apr 17, 2011)

dianneS said:
			
		

> The vet said that the only other thing it could be other than her heart is a seizure disorder.  He wants me to have the ultrasound done to possibly rule out the heart and then he said he'd treat her for seizures.
> 
> I'm thinking I might ask him if we could just try anti-seizure meds without the ultrasound of the heart and see how it goes?
> 
> Right now I'm not even able to give much attention to the goats.  They are all pastured with the horses on our highest piece of land.  We were just flooded out yesterday.  The first floor of our house was flooded, the basement of course totally flooded, so I've got a lot of work on my hands and the goats will just have to fend for themselves for a while.  Everyone is safe and sound and has lots of pasture and hay and a dry part of the barn.  I'm just not able to run a goat intensive care unit at this time so I hope the little girl is okay for a while.


Oh my goodness!  Sounds like you have so much to deal with right now!  Sending lots of warm, dry, hugs and prayers your way, Dianne.


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## redtailgal (Apr 17, 2011)

..............


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## dianneS (Apr 22, 2011)

Ugh, we're cleaning up this flood mess, but they have forcasted more rain for next week!  Its cold here and I'm overwhelmed.  The little goat doesn't look so good today and there just isn't much I can do for  her.  I have no place to put her in the house.  We have no heat in the house anyway so I can't really keep her any warmer than the barn can.

My blind rooster died today because I haven't been able to give him as much one-on-one attention as usual and I fear my little goat may be next.  There is just only so much I can do right now, I've got much too much on my plate.


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## Dreaming Of Goats (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm sorry....... Hope the best for both of you!


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## PattySh (Apr 23, 2011)

So sorry to hear you are going thru so much and are overwhelmed. I know the feeling, been there many times. Sorry about your rooster. You have been awfully good to that little goat and you certainly have given her some extra time. Some things are out of our control.


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## jessica117 (Apr 23, 2011)

Sending hugs and prayers your way!


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