# Great Pyrenees biting my goats - help!



## onedozenphyllises (Aug 9, 2009)

Hello all - I hope someone out there can help me with my situation!  I have a small herd of five Nubian goats.  We had four, and just brought home a new one yesterday.  All of them, including the new one, are the same age (about 8 months old).  We have two adjacent pens - one for girls and one for our buck and wethers.  We have a two-year-old Great Pyrenees in one of the pens.

Up to now, everyone has gotten along fine.  The dog has been great, and the last time we brought home new goats he took to them just fine.  All the goats have gotten along with no issue.  Yesterday I brought home a new doe.  She is NOT in the same pen with the dog, but rather in the adjacent pen.  All the same, he snarled at her through the fence and bit her ear.  He is quite friendly with us (as in, not aloof like some guard dogs) and each time I see him act that way, I take him to the ground immediately.  He has also (just today) started chasing the other goats, none of whom he has ever bothered before.  I have scoured the web and have found nothing about this - no one seems to have this problem.  I was wondering if anyone had ever seen or experienced such a thing, and whether it is simply the stress of a new situation, or if it is indicative of an ongoing problem.  Or, if there is something that I am doing wrong - we are fairly new at this.  Any info would be appreciated.  I'd like to give the dog a chance if it's not already a lost cause, since he has done very well up to now.  He is also still intact - will a neuter make any difference?   

I don't want any of my animals to be unhappy or afraid.  Please let me know also if I have not provided enough information.  Thanks!


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## Imissmygirls (Aug 9, 2009)

If you are seeing a chance in his personality, FWIW,,, from a yahoo list for  Black Russian Terriers... is it possible in any way that he may have Lyme disease?
Apparently there are anecdotal stories of dogs changing personalities and getting nasty for NO reason. They are testing positive for Lyme and being treated, and the old personality returns.  Might be worth a Lyme titer, depending where you are.
Another take on this: is he seeing something you aren't? our Black Russian does some strange things on occasion , but in retrospect we can usually figure out what's the cause.  To HER, it makes sense.  Our Cleo does not tolerate *imbalance* in any animal.  She tries to make it *behave*.


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks for that info - I'll watch him closely re: Lyme disease.  I hadn't considered that.  

Things do seem to be calming down out there today.  I'm actually beginning to think that he was _jealous_! Or confused because she was unfamiliar, or something.  I'm learning that he doesn't handle change any better than the goats do.  I've just never heard of any such behavior from Pyrs.  I'm going to monitor the situation closely and see how things go.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 10, 2009)

I personally know a guy with a GP who tries to kill this one particular goat in the herd..  For whatever reason, the dog just hates this goat..  He has to keep the dog chained because if it gets loose, it goes directly after this one specific goat.

Our own Sarplaninac LGD seemed to have a grudge against one of our goats for a little while.  He had a tendency to want to chase her and keep her split from the herd...it was the weirdest thing.  When we got to thinking about it, though, we realized that everybody picked on this goat...  The other goats picked on her, the dog picked on her..._nobody_ seems to like this goat for some reason.  She is kind of an oddball...just like her mama.

Anyway, in the midst of all that, I noticed that she had scabby lumps on her back...I thought for a while that the dog was seriously biting her.  Or maybe the other goats were biting her..  Then we started noticing scabs in areas that didn't make sense to be bites...  We came to realize that they weren't bites at all, but dermatophilosis -- aka, "rain rot" -- which is a bacterial skin infection.  

I put her on Bio-Mycin and it began clearing up right away...  She seemed to feel better, too..  

My wife and I noted shortly thereafter that Ivan, the Sarpie, didn't seem to be chasing her anymore..  At first we just assumed that he was coming out of a 'teenager spell' and had gotten over it..  Then one of us postulated that maybe he was chasing her because she had been unwell, and he didn't want the liability of an easy target running with the rest of the herd..

Who knows, right?

Well, just the other day I saw him chase her off again..  I yelled at him and thought "Well, scratch the whole 6th sense idea...he just doesn't like her."

Yeah, well...  Last night, I noticed she had a lot of flies around her back..  

Yep...  

Rain rot again.  

Granted, I can't say for sure that he's keeping her split out because she's unhealthy, but I do know that LGDs are known to do things like eat dead kids to keep scavengers away...  They care about stuff like that..  I've also personally witnessed this dog get between a fense-slipping scrub goat and our foundation herd..  He didn't hurt anybody, but he would not let that scrub goat interact with the other goats..

Suffice it to say that I certainly wouldn't put the ability to recognize liabilities past the several thousand years of selective breeding that produced Ivan..  

Point being...maybe your dog doesn't like this goat for some particular reason other than the fact that she's new?  Maybe he looks at her and recognizes something you don't..?  When he chased your 'old' goats, was he by any chance trying to keep them clear of new goat?


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 10, 2009)

That would make total sense to me, but I can't imagine what he might think is wrong with her.  I WILL keep watch over her too, just in case, but I bought her from people who show goats and have kept them since the 50's, and she appears to be in EXCELLENT health.  She looks fantastic.  I was also provided with her complete medical history, which is more than up to snuff.  If something isn't right about her, I'll be darned if I can tell what it is!


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 10, 2009)

Hmmm...maybe I just answered my own question.  I know her previous owner gave her supplements and such that we don't use.  Maybe she smells "wrong" to him because of that?  Maybe I need to just give everyone some time?  I feel bad.  In the meantime, they're all nervous out there.


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## Griffin's Ark (Aug 10, 2009)

Have you taught your dog the word "mine"?  Each goat introduced to the herd should be individually introduced to the dog.  Telling the dog that the animal is yours and that it his his job to watch what is yours.  Otherwise the dog could see the animal as a threat to the herd.

Chris


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks - that's a good suggestion, too.  We have not done that, per se.  I mean, he sees us caring for the goats and showing them affection and such, but we have not specifically *told* him.  I did try to introduce this new doe to him, and that didn't go so well.  I'll make an effort to consistently reinforce that from now on and see if that helps.


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## broke down ranch (Aug 10, 2009)

I know a LOT of people swear by the pyrenese but I know an older man who has raised boer's for many, many years. He would not have a pyr even if someone were trying to give them away. He says way back when he started with goats he had pyr's for LGD's and each and every one of them would, from time to time, turn against the herd. From what he says there was no provocation, just the pyr in question (apparently he'd tried many) would cop an attitude and would bite or attack one or more of the goats. And it never was a one time thing. Nor did it happen ALL the time. Just the dog would forget it was a protector or would think it was part of the herd or whatever and would just strike out against the herd. I know I had to get rid of my LGD who was half pyr and half anatolian. He attacked one of my nanny's while she was in the middle of giving birth! Thank goodness I was there or it would have been tragic all the way around.

Next LGD I get will probably be full-blood anatolian just based on my own experience and from what my friend has experienced....


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## cmjust0 (Aug 11, 2009)

There are a lot of goats in Kentucky..  As such, there are a lot of "livestock guardian dogs" around..  

In fact, you can get all kinds of "grate pryinese" or "gr. pirenees" or "great perynes" pups on Craigslist for the low, low price of maybe $40-$50..  

Now...maybe I'm being a snob...but if you cain't speel teh breed of you dog, u probly shuoldn't be bredding you dog.

There are only a handful of Anatolian Shepherd breeders around here and a good pup -- one that's raised on-farm by working parents with registration papers and hip certs -- runs about $700-$800.

I'd much sooner pay that than take someone's supposed Gr. Pryines pup anyday, especially considering this is a dog you're going to leave with your goats 24/7..  

Getting a cheap dog that kills valuable goats is poor economy, to say the very least.


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm going to give this arrangement until the weekend and reevaluate.  There's been no further harm done thus far, but I won't say that everyone is nice and relaxed either.  I want to see how much stress is dog-caused, and how much is simply the arrival of a newcomer, swapping pens and so forth (they HATE when we do that).  If it doesn't resolve, the dog goes.  If there are ANY further infractions, the dog goes.  I love dogs, and he's not necessarily a _bad_ dog, but I can't afford a dog that won't guard, nor do I want stressed goats (or worse).

FWIW, I did go out and give the new doe another thorough going-over, and I can find nothing whatsoever wrong with her.  She's in outstanding health.

The only other alternative I can think of is to fence in a sort of "perimeter" yard for the dog outside of the goat yard, so that he'd be between them and the outside world, but not in the same yard with them.  Since our barns back up to someone else's property (not our doing, they were already in place), it would mean fencing around the front of the barns, which doesn't thrill me.


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## Roll farms (Aug 12, 2009)

Is the dog neutered?
Just pondering...
We have 2 pyrs and an Anatolian and the only time there's a scuffle is when there's a perceived "food" item around.  I've got hoggish dogs and goats.
We neutered the older pyr and will be neutering the Anatolian if I can't find him a home soon.
(I want to keep a pup from him and the pyr and don't "need" 4 LGD's)
Hoping it works itself out for you, soon!


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks!  He is NOT neutered.  We don't intend to breed him, but hadn't neutered him either, because we weren't sure if it would influence his "guarding" behavior either positively or negatively.  Would you say that it helps?  I suppose we will, since we have no reason to keep him intact.

On a positive note, everyone was very relaxed this morning, so I think things might be settling down.  I am starting to think maybe it was just the confusion of adding a new animal and moving everyone around.  I'm still on high alert, but I'm encouraged today.  

Thanks to everyone for your input!


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## homesteadingcowgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

Your last note made me think of something with my Pyr cross: Anytime we bring home a new critter he is very suspicious, needs to check it out etc... He is a great guarder and ALSO a love bug, so he will play with any of my critters. But until he knows that the new animal is "mom's" it is not okay with him. Once he knows that mom okay's this new thing and wants it protected, he is golden-from baby chicks to cow to vehicles in the yard. It doesn't take him long. The wierd th;ing with this is that he never barks at the same vehicle twice!! Once I " approve" he won't bark at it again as it comes up the drive!  

Edited to say that he is neutered, but wasn't until he was older and haven't noticed any difference one way or the other


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## onedozenphyllises (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks Homesteadingcowgirl - that sounds exactly like our boy.  I'm thinking maybe he's just going to be that way.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 12, 2009)

Ours isn't like that..  When he gets upset, he won't let up until whatever's upsetting him goes away.  I can try to tell him that it's OK, or to hush, or calm down, or shut up...the best I get back from him is a sideways glance that just screams "DANG, DUDE!  Can we talk about this later -- I'm working here!?!?!?!!!!"

Frankly, I don't mind that he makes a spectacle of himself...especially when people show up.  It would be pretty much impossible for someone to surprise us with a visit.

Which is good...  That someone could be this guy, afterall.


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## lilhill (Aug 12, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ours isn't like that..  When he gets upset, he won't let up until whatever's upsetting him goes away.  I can try to tell him that it's OK, or to hush, or calm down, or shut up...the best I get back from him is a sideways glance that just screams "DANG, DUDE!  Can we talk about this later -- I'm working here!?!?!?!!!!"
> 
> Frankly, I don't mind that he makes a spectacle of himself...especially when people show up.  It would be pretty much impossible for someone to surprise us with a visit.
> 
> Which is good...  That someone could be this guy, afterall.


Our LGD is like that, too, even with one of our best friends if he happens to show up and approach the pasture fence when we're not around.  And Daisy has seen this man nearly every day for four years.  She knows what her job is.  Good dog!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 12, 2009)




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## Roll farms (Aug 13, 2009)

Our first Pyr used to try and mount the does when they were in heat, so we had him fixed at 1 yr.  He still hops on them sometimes, but it's more out of habit than need, methinks...
I neutered him for 2 reasons...I wanted his mind on the job, not on looking for love and I wanted him to stay home.  Our idiot neighbors have females and when they go in heat I didn't want him leaving our fence to go make babies.
It didn't affect his guarding abilities one bit, and he still chews on the chain link if ANYONE not "us" goes near the pasture.


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