# It is so saddening to see LGDS jump from home to home where I live



## TAH (Jul 9, 2016)

I was looking on different websites for LGDS for sale and it is so saddening to see LGDS jump from home to home. I was wondering if this happens to great Pyrenees mostly where you live. It is very common for a great Pyrenees to bounce from 3-4  home before finding someone that knows how to help them. 
For example there has been a great Pyrenees pup that was 8 months old when we was posted for $50 there he goes at 8 months of age to spend 24/7 with goats and is expected to no how to guard. Less than 2 weeks later he is up for sale again, this time he was for sale cuz he wanted to be with there other dog. I saw him for sale 2 more times after that. He has been bounce from home to home 4 or more times in the last 2 months. This is not the only pup that goes thru this in Oregon is this common or is it just Oregon? It makes me so sad


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 9, 2016)

It is everywhere.
Too many people breeding them that do not really care where they go.
Too many people that cannot adequately place them.
Too many people buying a dog and don't have a clue and get bad advice.

Makes me so sick.


----------



## TAH (Jul 9, 2016)

I didn't realize it is that bad.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Jul 10, 2016)

In some areas it's common for folks to buy 4, $50 pyrs and shoot the two that "don't work out"


----------



## OneFineAcre (Jul 10, 2016)

We have found homes for 4 of our pups
We told each that if they had problems and it did not work out we would take the pup back and refund the money
So far all are doing well !!
I think at this point we Ade going to find a home for one more pup and we are keeping


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 10, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> We have found homes for 4 of our pups
> We told each that if they had problems and it did not work out we would take the pup back and refund the money
> So far all are doing well !!
> I think at this point we Ade going to find a home for one more pup and we are keeping



There is the difference. You care. You never did this for financial gain. You also would keep any dog before just placing it anywhere!


----------



## TAH (Jul 10, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> In some areas it's common for folks to buy 4, $50 pyrs and shoot the two that "don't work out"


That is how it is on CL all the time. lot of are free and they have to be picked up that day other ways there put to death.


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 10, 2016)

Oh my gosh I have never even seen on posted on Craigslist.  I had no idea it was that bad! Being a behaviorist and dog lover,  it makes me so angry to hear that people have this little care and don't think dogs need to be trained to protect their animals.   I have been looking for one,  which i intent to have to train and pay plenty of attention to,  and I can't even find one!


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 10, 2016)

Much of this goes back to the buyers.
Unreasonable expectations of these dogs.

I would say that on almost every consult call I have to tell people -
"Your expectations will have to change. PERIOD!"
"Respect the dog"
"Work with the dog as if he/she is your PARTNER"
"Stop micro-managing the dog- it is smarter than you are"


----------



## babsbag (Jul 10, 2016)

People don't want to accept that MOST of these dogs need some training. There are some that just "get it" right from the start but most of them require someone to give them some basic training and to spend time with them. Sometimes a lot of time. You might have to reconfigure your barn and pens to keep them separate, you might (will) lose some chickens, you garden hose or shovel may get chewed on, and so it goes with a pup. But buyers want these dogs to act like livestock, throw them in the field and forget about them and then complain when the bored puppy chases, chews, digs, barks, climbs, etc.  Any puppy will do those things and yet the cute little house pet is pampered and trained and those habits are corrected...the LGD gets tossed in the field and rehomed when it acts like a puppy.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 10, 2016)

And then there is Mia...she is 6.5 months old and will be my undoing.  She will make me rethink everything I ever knew about training dogs and LGDs in general. My first 3 were saints...other than chickens...then there is Mia.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 10, 2016)

Had a message earlier today.
Desperately trying to find a home for a 9 month old dumped female pyr.... She has til Tuesday or she will be euthanized.

Have emergency texts out now.

Yep... @TAH  it is everywhere.


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 10, 2016)

I wish I was closer to you . I haven't heard of this being a common occurrence in my area of the country.  Many of our rescues bring in dogs from the south,  for whatever reason.  I actually have had a hard time finding a Pyrenees up here. I'm not exactly in "farm country".


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 10, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> I wish I was closer to you . I haven't heard of this being a common occurrence in my area of the country.  Many of our rescues bring in dogs from the south,  for whatever reason.  I actually have had a hard time finding a Pyrenees up here. I'm not exactly in "farm country".



We are only halfway down the coast.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Jul 10, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> I wish I was closer to you . I haven't heard of this being a common occurrence in my area of the country.  Many of our rescues bring in dogs from the south,  for whatever reason.  I actually have had a hard time finding a Pyrenees up here. I'm not exactly in "farm country".


The reason a lot of shelter dogs from the south end up in the NE is because you have restrictions on breeding dogs up there 
It's kind of a good thing because a lot of dogs that would be put down here get adopted


----------



## TAH (Jul 11, 2016)

Are you going to try to find someone to take her? That is terrible.


----------



## Mike CHS (Jul 11, 2016)

I see listings all the time around here - that is such a shame.


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 11, 2016)

I don't think we have restrictions in breeding in NH.  But maybe the surrounding states? I adopted my chow mix through a rescue that brings dogs from the south,  I think he's from Tennessee? Best dog EVER.  

Southern by choice,  I so wish I could but not in the cards right now.   I even tried to convince my husband that NC isn't that far! He doesn't believe me.


----------



## chiques chicks (Jul 11, 2016)

I live in the puppy mill capital of the country. Seriously.

I don't see many LGD here, mostly poorly bred pets. Surprisingly, many of the rescue dogs still come from the south. Many of the shelters in the south are kill shelters. Many rescues around here are no kill.

Biggest issue here is the abundance of pit bull type animals.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

Trying to... Today I am calling. For LGD I would have to evaluate her for farmdog she has a better chance.


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 11, 2016)

Mostly what we see here (which isn't all that much)  is also poorly bred pets.  Some pits,  lots of golden retriever type dogs.  We have kill and no kill shelters near me,  but they seem disproportionally full of bully breeds.  I have a dog who is a bully breed,  so I am so not on the anti pit wagon,  to clarify! That being  said,  there are far far more rescue dogs from the south.  Which is great.  My dig was rescued in vitro,  haha,  but his pregnant mother was left on the truck while the dog officer (so sorry I have no idea the correct term) went into a store to pay for gas.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

I am not a "rescue" type.
I do however look for LGD's that may not have had a fair shake at things.

Some people will actually give up a dog for chasing poultry. 

I get calls all the time... people wanting the dog to be good with poultry... when I tell them it takes work and they will lose some along the way and they will need to train them they think that is too much work.
You tell them there are trained dogs out there and they could get a trained dog.

They don't want to pay the price for a trained dog.
I guess a year of feeding, vet care, training, loss of the trainers poultry etc should all just be free.


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 11, 2016)

I don't know much about training LGDs,  but I know you have to do a ton of training with any dog! I know some people who keep their Pyrenees in with their bucks because if they let it out with the does it can't handle them being all over the place and starts trying to (somewhat aggressively)  herd them..  But I don't think they trained him at all,  so of course he doesn't know how to behave! At least they found a solution that works for them and he's being taken care of.  

People really expect dogs to be trained without paying extra? Wow.


----------



## Ponker (Jul 11, 2016)

Our neighbors bought a pup and chained her in with the sheep. It was horrible. Then, they decided she needed a friend and bought another, and put that pup in with the sheep and just left them there. They were even bragging about being able to catch them when necessary! OMG

When we bought our dog, I was told to get a book. And I read it cover to cover. I still research because I haven't owned a LGD before but have owned a beautiful well-trained Dobe, Chow, and Cane Corso. While being able to properly manage these large dominant breeds prepared me for the challenge, it was necessary to forget it all and start over.

Prince is now 8 months old and has turned my last black hairs gray, had me cussing a blue streak that embarrassed my neighbors, and  just about shredded every ounce of my patience. I see him now beginning to trust his instincts. He has never killed a chicken or duck and they have free-ranged since he set his first paw on the property. he has stopped chasing the lambs! YAY! (I'll take that WIN!) He is still mouthy - likes to chew on everything including the cat, wool still connected to sheep, and metal table legs. His newest trick is to chase the cars that pass by our house. We live on a gravel road and have a perimeter fence so he can't get in the road. We were at the pond letting out the new ducklings out of the duck enclosure in the morning and he was watching the action. Then, he heard a car approach. He got up and took off for the front of the house. All the way from the pond! He chases all along the fence. It started a week ago.

I see dogs for sale around here for $50. I also see dogs for sale much higher. People asked me if I got Prince from Camp because they're known for their great dogs. 

I know people just shoot dogs when they don't work out. The neighbors who I mentioned at the beginning can't keep their dogs in. Their pets even roam and they don't get shots. I've had to stop my truck on the road and put their dogs back in the pasture before they get hit by a car. Their last dog ended up run over by someone coming out of their lane. Sad sad sad. 

Thing is, people just don't talk about it. when we got Prince and decided to train him instead of throwing him in with the sheep and forgetting him, the neighbor laughed and told us he'd make a good pet. I just shrugged and didn't answer. i'd rather have Prince come when called, like to be handled, and stay on the property. It's harder to train him properly. That's ok, I'd rather try than leave it to fate. So far, he's not killed anything except the small rodents the cat brings him. I think the cat is trying to train him. LOL

Around here free dogs end up sold to clinics for animal testing.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> I don't know much about training LGDs, but I know you have to do a ton of training with any dog!


For a good LGD, properly selected there really isn't alot of training. The "training" is mostly poultry. The other side is partnering.
Working with these dogs naot as a MASTER but as a partner. We work as a team. I am part of that team... I am alpha, but then there is a seconf alpha amongst the dogs... yet they learn each other's strengths and work with it. 



NH homesteader said:


> Pyrenees in with their bucks because if they let it out with the does it can't handle them being all over the place and starts trying to (somewhat aggressively) herd them.. But I don't think they trained him at all, so of course he doesn't know how to behave!


There is much on this subject that I really should post about in my teaching moments thread. Novices simply do not get what is going on and often become very frustrated.
Maybe I will work on a post about this. 



NH homesteader said:


> People really expect dogs to be trained without paying extra?


Yeah. People who just want cheap... they usually are the first to dispose of a dog. 



Ponker said:


> he has stopped chasing the lambs! YAY! (I'll take that WIN!) He is still mouthy - likes to chew on everything including the cat, wool still connected to sheep, and metal table legs.


With this behavior EVER happening he should have been evaluated differently. Glad you chose to work with him but it is not "normal" to have LGD's chase lambs or goats and mouth them.



Ponker said:


> His newest trick is to chase the cars that pass by our house. We live on a gravel road and have a perimeter fence so he can't get in the road.


LOL there is a reason for this as well.
Some of it is for protection, some is play, some is exercise.
Maybe I will put up a post on the subject in teaching moments.


----------



## cjc (Jul 11, 2016)

Long story short people are total jerks. I don't know how people can do this to an animal. I always say to family members and friends that the moment to pick up that cute puppy/dog its an obligation for life. You are PROMISING them you will take care of them. Whether its a LGD or not it doesn't matter its purpose, it's wrong in my opinion. We didn't shoot ours, or give ours away when we realized one of the reasons we got him wasn't going to work because he was a mad man chicken killer. No way. I picked that cute puppy out and I am obligated to give him a good life now plain and simple.

My sister just recently adopted a Rottweiler from a local shelter in our area. The dog was one year and should have been about 80-90lbs. She was 31lbs!!!! She was starved to almost death. Finally the authorities stepped in after multiple times of this dog being reported as being abused and now the dog is with my sister. She is a good dog surprisingly after everything she has been through. Honestly, I would have a lot of choice words for the guy that did that to that dog.

Sorry this is a soft spot to me. As I look at my elderly dogs, one 12, one 10 both ridden with so many problems over the years I just cant imagine deserting them. Even though they are aggressive to other animals now, they are old cranky and covered in flaws, they are my dogs. It is my responsibility to ensure that they are cared for and die happy.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

cjc said:


> Long story short people are total jerks. I don't know how people can do this to an animal. I always say to family members and friends that the moment to pick up that cute puppy/dog its an obligation for life. You are PROMISING them you will take care of them. Whether its a LGD or not it doesn't matter its purpose, it's wrong in my opinion. We didn't shoot ours, or give ours away when we realized one of the reasons we got him wasn't going to work because he was a mad man chicken killer. No way. I picked that cute puppy out and I am obligated to give him a good life now plain and simple.
> .



Purpose does matter. 
LGD's do not (if a true guardian) always fair well in a "pet" environment. 
I am a believer in euthanasia. I see far to many animals that are severely unstable, gross health issues and yet these animals are adopted out and should NOT be.

There is a difference between the animal kingdom and humans.

I see way to many rescuers that have no clue and want to save everything. Not everything should be. 
I see so many that observe something and automatically assume the dog somehow had some past abuse. It is so "Overdone". Truth is many that are labeled "abused" are simply neurotic dogs with unstable temperaments that never endured any abuse.
I have seen dogs slink, cower, and shake and because I KNOW the owners know they were never abused. But if relinquished to a shelter they would swear it had some dark horrid past.

Genetics play a role.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Jul 11, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Purpose does matter.
> LGD's do not (if a true guardian) always fair well in a "pet" environment.
> I am a believer in euthanasia. I see far to many animals that are severely unstable, gross health issues and yet these animals are adopted out and should NOT be.
> 
> ...



I agree Southern for the most part. I've owned my now 12yr old dog since she was 6 weeks old she was never abused or mistreated and she still cowers or shakes or hides. I've had several dogs over the years and many displayed the cower behavior without ever being abused...my thinking on it is it might be linked to a submissive personality? im not sure but i know ive only had 1 dog who wasnt "submissive" and thats our 1 year old Doberman Pincher but he isnt at all mean, he listens well, he just doest respect my space as much as i would like which we are working on still. We have started training him to herd so shall see how that goes.

As far as not all dogs should be saved i agree 100%. We used to be part of a pitbull rescue where they stole pits from people fighting them and sent them to different houses in the network to be rehabilitated. Many many were put to sleep, which in all honesty was better for them then either staying to be fight/bait dogs or trying to rehabilitate. We always tried very hard but some were simply broken in the head or the heart. Massive food aggression, instant bite response, severe nervous behavior, huge amounts of anxiety...sometimes it was just kinder to let them take the big nap. One of the hardest things to train was, if the new pit attacked one of the rehabilitated pits that it was NOT ok to attack back.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Jul 11, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> For a good LGD, properly selected there really isn't alot of training. The "training" is mostly poultry. The other side is partnering.
> Working with these dogs naot as a MASTER but as a partner. We work as a team. I am part of that team... I am alpha, but then there is a seconf alpha amongst the dogs... yet they learn each other's strengths and work with it.
> 
> 
> ...



We also definitely need some learning posts!


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 11, 2016)

My husband and I have had this argument.  I've started to see his side now.  If there is a limited number of spaces in a rescue or a limited number of homes,  it makes sense for dogs who can be rehabilitated to have those homes. 

Dogs who cannot be rehabilitated end up being bounced around,  which sadly is worse for them than compassionately ending their suffering.  I don't believe that it is fair to call those on either side of the issue names or criticize,  as both sides are,  in their own way,  concerned with the care of animals.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

About 25- 30 years ago there were 2 imports... Sch 3 dogs.
The breeding went well. I went to see the litter at 3 weeks... it was disturbing, by 5 weeks these dogs were showing very bad traits. No abuse. Each dog was sold to future working and or pet homes. By working I mean Schutzhund.
These dogs and pups were in the tens of thousandsof dollars... so they were good stock not "junk"

By 6 months every dog was returned. For whatever reason the two dogs together although highly trained and great genetics didn't mesh.
This litter always stuck in my mind. These dogs were so dangerous there wasn't another option.

I have seen far too many dogs kept alive that was based solely on the emotions of the human and it resulted in a bad ending.

Brain tumors are one such case. The people couldn't bare putting the dog down. Yet that tumor pressed and pressed. This time though it came to euthanizing the dog *after it mauled their 2 year old.*

Another... dog hit by a car rear paralyzed... they decided a ramp and a wheelchair etc... so while this was being addressed the dog was defecating and urinating... they struggled to hose it off and clean it... dog got flystrike and was being eaten away by maggots.
Their "heart" may have had good intentions but the 13 year old dog should have had more dignity in death than that. It was selfish of the people.

Last year I was called about a dog. 3x owners each time it had bit.
They worked with the dog but to no avail. My recommendation- put it down. I know you do not understand this. This dog posed a serious threat to anyone who would adopt it. The dog was relinquished. I saw the ad up the following week. Long story short, there was no mention of any of it's history. Understand that these shelters usually do not have qualified assessors.  Do not work with the dogs but spin them. Yet they have this little clause... they aren't liable. They SHOULD be! Proper channels did deal with the situation and rightly so.

A couple years ago 60 people were exposed to rabies from a adopt a pet event. The pup hadn't been quarantined long enough and had rabies.

I am a huge advocate for the humane treatment of animals.
I loathe contraptions people put on their LGD's- unnecessary.
Shock collars as well. I do not believe dogs are disposable.

Why do you think I am working on getting this pup out of the shelter?

And yes, $30,000 on a dog I do think is morally wrong.
I would rather support a shelter for abused women/children.
I would also support St. Judes
I would also support our wounded soldiers.
I would also support families with extreme medical from their child's illness.

However- your money - your choice.


----------



## cjc (Jul 11, 2016)

@Southern by choice no I would give it the life it deserves and I would NEVER buy a dog with a "If" involved. If you don't do this then you get the boot. That is something I just would never stand for. Not with a domesticated pet like a dog.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Jul 11, 2016)

Imagine how many shelter dogs/cats you could have saved or supported with that 30k..that you spent on your 1 dog...many would call that selfish of you. Saving 1 when you could save many.


----------



## cjc (Jul 11, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Imagine how many shelter dogs/cats you could have saved or supported with that 30k..that you spent on your 1 dog...many would call that selfish of you. Saving 1 when you could save many.



It's called rehabilitation. I will not give up on my dog until her body and health has given up on her. Don't pass judgment on me for saving my animal.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

cjc said:


> @Southern by choice no I would give it the life it deserves and I would NEVER buy a dog with a "If" involved. If you don't do this then you get the boot. That is something I just would never stand for. Not with a domesticated pet like a dog.


You make the assumption that a person is going into something with an "if " mentality. That is not always the case. Those that do that should never own any animal. I am referring to the purpose part of the earlier post.

You seem to not understand that all dogs were bred for purpose and have now become domesticated.

You CLEARLY would not take the dog and put the dog in a better environment for the dog. This makes no sense.
Yet you say you care about the animal. So on a farm environment where there are gunshots, hunting etc you would make the dog suffer through extreme anxiety of having to listen to that then place that dog in a loving home without the stress. 

Truly the "if" it doesn't work out is far greater in the pet industry than in the LGD community.

Curious. Your dog... what breed was it? The one you couldn't train to poultry?

I don't think you even realize we are all on the same team... trying to do the best for each animal.


----------



## norseofcourse (Jul 11, 2016)

One of the reasons I got out of rescue after 20+ years was that emotions and passions run extremely high when discussing animals.  For the vast majority of people, the underlying goal is to help animals - but it's sometimes surprising that people's definition of helping varies so tremendously.  And there's not one sure, absolutely right answer for everyone and every situation.

I've known rescue groups advise a fellow rescuer to try and rehabilitate a dog that had already had at least two *unprovoked* attacks on a child (one said it was cureable with clicker training and cheerios).

I am not trying to get into this debate - except to say that please realize this is a highly charged subject, and we're using a medium that does not allow tone of voice or facial expression, and these posts are coming pretty fast, so some things may not be said as clearly and completely as possible.  It's very easy to read more into a post than was meant to be there.


----------



## norseofcourse (Jul 11, 2016)

One of my first dogs was one I got from the rescue group I was with at the time.  He came in as an unneutered 2-year old shepherd mix that had been tied outside to a tree pretty much his whole life.  From his behavior, I believe he was teased/hit by neighborhood kids (yeah, I know, assuming - but I grew to know him well).

I was attempting to evaluate how much he could be handled/touched after he arrived - and he bit me.  I ended up a few weeks later taking him on as a foster, and although I worked with him and with a competent local trainer, we felt he would not be safe enough to adopt out.  Very few people call a rescue and want a fear biter.  By then I was attached, however.  I took him permanently - knowing that for the rest of his life, I had a huge responsibility to keep him, and anyone he came in contact with, safe.  I had to trust that I could read his body language well enough to know when and why he was ok, or not ok, and what to do.  He also had to trust in me a great deal.  I had him many years without incident - he even earned his CD title (I was most proud of his 'stand for exam', he scored perfect each time and for a fear biter that is a major accomplishment   ).  It was a horribly sad day when I had to put him down, after dementia stole his mind from him  

I have also rehomed an animal.  It was a cat, and she was not doing well with my other cats - they were not getting along, and she was so stressed she was going outside her litterbox.  I tried many things, but she was still stressed.  I was in an apartment at the time, and could not have her damaging the place - we would have all gotten thrown out, and it would have probably ruined it for future tenants who wanted to have cats.  The local humane society took her and was able to find her a home as a single cat (and I told them if she had a time limit and they still hadn't placed her, to call me and I'd keep trying).  It was a hard thing to do, but I felt it was the right thing for both of us at the time.

So I've been on both sides of the coin.  There are those who would think I was totally wrong in one or both of the above situations (not thinking of anyone here).  I know there are rescue groups who would never ever adopt to me because I rehomed a cat 30 years ago (dang, I'm old... lol).  Glad not all of them, though.

I think some things, most anyone can agree on.
It's horrible that so many livestock guard dogs are rehomed because of unrealistic expectations or unwillingness to train.
It's horrible that someone would get four livestock guard dogs and shoot 2 that don't work out (that makes me so mad, and sad).
People should educate themselves about the breed and training before getting a livestock guard dog (really, any dog).

So, regarding the third point - how do we do this, to lessen the number of LGD's jumping from home to home?


----------



## NH homesteader (Jul 11, 2016)

I think everyone in this thread agrees with the original intent of this thread, which is that people should be responsible for their own animals and not "pawn them off"  on others.  I don't necessarily agree with spending $30,000 on a dog,  by which I mean I wouldn't do it.  But if that's how you feel is best to take care of your dog then kudos to you.  Honestly I just couldn't afford it! There's a post on here about a goat that sold for $16,000, which to me is also absurd! 

I think from reading this that we are all animal lovers,  and all have different ideas of how that plays out in "real"  life.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

Euthanasia is sometimes needed. Not for dogs that "don't work out"... for severely aggressive animals or animals that have severe health issues. NOT anytime did I suggest this for LGD's that didn't quite cut it as LGD's! 

I do get tired of people's selfishness and their own emotional baggage that they bring into an animals life... "they saved it"... yet the animal is so suffering but because the emotional issues of the human they won't humanely put it to rest. Is this everyone that does rescue work? NO, of course not.

When speaking of it being immoral. I am referring to the top on down. Vet business is booming and is a multi- billion dollar industry and it has shifted to a disturbing level. The "pet" industry has somehow shifted what once was vets who cared for animals not vets who just prey on those with financial resourse and guilting those who don't. Just recently on one of the vet magazines was "little dogs bring in big BUCKS!" 

You made the decision that you felt comfortable with. I am not and will not condemn you, your money you decide. You see I see it from another perspective have many years of experiencing severe medical in humans. It changes how you see things when you see it up close and firsthand. It does bother me and I am sad that when a little baby had a rare disease and the medical was astronomical, insurance would not pay for experimental treatments and the people would have to... that they lost their home, cars, and poured everything  they had in and I saw a go fund me page that  nobody would give to. Yet the go fund me page for fido for his cancer treatment was bringing in $ by the thousands.
This is beyond sad. I will always see humans above animals ALWAYS.
You may find that immoral. But I will answer to my God one day. Did I care for my fellow MAN? Did I give them drink when they thirsted, did I clothe hem when they needed it, did I offer food to the hungry? The human condition is what will change all these other issues.
Having said that I do believe we are called to steward all that is entrusted to us. Animals, finances, relationships etc.

CJC you have helped many on the forum, as have I.
I am not your enemy.
I will continue to rehabilitate LGD's. I will continue to try and help those seeking answers to problems with their dogs. And when someone cannot keep their LGD for whatever reason I will not condemn them but find a solution for the dog. The dog deserves it, the dog deserves a home that it can flourish in.


----------



## Kaye (Jul 11, 2016)

Training is everything. Breed never matters. My LGD is a pit


----------



## babsbag (Jul 11, 2016)

Kaye said:


> Training is everything. Breed never matters. My LGD is a pit



Sorry, wrong answer.  Breed matters more than you will know and until you own a true LGD breed you just won't get it.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 11, 2016)

And I have to chime in here. If a person buys an LGD for the sole purpose of it living with and guarding livestock and that LGD does not make the cut after months or literally years of training what do they do with the dog? They may not be able to bring it into their home, they may not have a breeder that will take it back. Maybe they can re-home it to a pet home, and maybe they can't. In the meantime it has to stay locked up in a pen so it won't harm the livestock (and I am not talking chickens). So what do they do with it? Do they never buy an LGD puppy because it might not work out?  I would not keep a goat that can not give milk, I would not keep a buck that is sterile. I love my LGDs beyond words but they were bought for a purpose so what do you do when that purpose can't be fulfilled. Is a person supposed to have a barn full of failed LGDs?  Not every LGD will succeed in their job description.

I have one such pup and the verdict is still out on her future with me.


----------



## norseofcourse (Jul 11, 2016)

> It's our responsibility as humans to protect these animals we have domesticated. And by putting a bullet in their head because they are off, or fear biters is not in my moral capacity. We  have a dog in our family that is a fear biter. We have tried countless times to show her people aren't as scary as she thinks but she still reacts. So we adapted. I did not and never would put a bullet in her head because she's "off".


I had a fear biter, too.  It's a big responsibility.  Can you understand that some people might not want the legal liability of a known biter?  Might not have the ability to handle the dog and keep it (and all other humans) safe for the rest of its life?  Might feel the dog should not live its whole life in fear, confined so it doesn't hurt someone, unable to be a happy, calm member of a family?  Might never forgive themselves if it bit their grandchild, or if they found it what they thought was a good home, and it bit a child or anyone else?  Some people might not have a choice - their insurance may drop them for having a dangerous dog.  Their county might have a 'one strike and you're out' policy.  It's not always as easy as 'I got it so it's my responsibility forever'.  And talking about a 'bullet in their head' is inflammatory.  There are humane ways to put down dogs.



> My dog is not property. She was a good dog for me the 6 years prior that she broke her neck and she has been a good dog the 4 years after. It was my responsibility to cure her. If not, that death is on me and I would never have that on my track record. Add as many of those to your record as you would like but I would never be a part of it.


For many years I was of the 'you get an animal, it's your responsibility for life' group.  When I had to rehome my cat Sunshine, it hurt, and I felt I let her down.  Many, many, many people rehome or get rid of a pet way too quickly, but I've come to realize it isn't always a sign of a morally reprehensible person.  Sometimes, your responsibility extends to finding a home that works better for that animal, and realizing it's not your home.  IMHO it shouldn't be your first choice, but it shouldn't make you a bad person, either.

What's funny, is that my deeply held belief - that any animal you get is yours for life - has made it really hard to raise sheep.  I am purposely cutting short the lifespan of my lambs - sending them to be slaughtered well under a year old.  What's the difference between sheep and dogs?  They are both domesticated animals, they both have intelligence and instincts and at least some emotion.  Is it hard?  Yes, very.  I make sure they have good lives while they're here, and I have also promised my ewes that they are here for life, so that helps a bit.  I wouldn't make a very good commercial farmer, but luckily I don't have to be.


----------



## cjc (Jul 11, 2016)

babsbag said:


> And I have to chime in here. If a person buys an LGD for the sole purpose of it living with and guarding livestock and that LGD does not make the cut after months or literally years of training what do they do with the dog? They may not be able to bring it into their home, they may not have a breeder that will take it back. Maybe they can re-home it to a pet home, and maybe they can't. In the meantime it has to stay locked up in a pen so it won't harm the livestock (and I am not talking chickens). So what do they do with it? Do they never buy an LGD puppy because it might not work out?  I would not keep a goat that can not give milk, I would not keep a buck that is sterile. I love my LGDs beyond words but they were bought for a purpose so what do you do when that purpose can't be fulfilled. Is a person supposed to have a barn full of failed LGDs?  Not every LGD will succeed in their job description.
> 
> I have one such pup and the verdict is still out on her future with me.



Like I said its a dog. Don't put that obligation on it. No matter how you look at it dogs are different. They are not the animals that we eat. They are companion animals and that is what makes them different. Just like many people disagree with eating horses, we do not eat dogs. They are companion animals.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 11, 2016)

They are companion animals that have a job. A seeing eye guide dog has a job. Does it stay with the blind person if it can't do that job? A lead sled dogs pulls a sled, where does it go when it can't pull anymore? 

Do you have an LGD?


----------



## norseofcourse (Jul 11, 2016)

Back to the point of this thread, that it's sad to see livestock guard dogs rehomed over and over - do you see that in your area?  Got any suggestions on solutions?  How to help the situation when it happens - or, better yet, prevent it?


----------



## Mike CHS (Jul 11, 2016)

Thank you Norseofcourse :}


----------



## Southern by choice (Jul 11, 2016)

@Kaye  Training of course does play a role in dogs... you are right.
Keep in mind many use other breeds as farmdogs and they do quite well. Livestock Guardians are different. 
My GSD and my mutt are both great farmdogs and very protective of everything on the farm. They however cannot do what a LGD can.
There are many dogs of LG Breeds that don't cut it as an actual LGD, but can make great farmdogs.


----------



## babsbag (Jul 12, 2016)

@Kaye...inquiring minds need to know...what is an SMD? I "googled" it and came up with a zero. And is a BMD a Burmese Mountain Dog? If so, they are gorgeous animals and I came very close to owning one once. I needed another dog then like I need another goat now so I refrained, but it sure was tempting.  I would say maybe one day, but not likely...they aren't common, and I'm not young.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Jul 12, 2016)

We dont see much if any rehomeing/bouncing around of LGDs in my area. They are big money up here which is sickening. LGD's here commonly go for $600-3,000 each...the lower end of the scale no breed rights/fixed and the upper end 6 months-1yr old with some training in. There is a local lady that pumps them out like hotcakes and charges $800 each...i refuse to get any of her dogs though, they are not sound in the head.


----------



## Latestarter (Jul 12, 2016)

Wow... what happened? All hell broke loose here 

@cjc didn't you have a cow, that had a bull calf, and was incapable of producing/delivering milk? And what happened to that cow? Why? Didn't that cow have the "right" to a full life till the end of her days because you purchased her? You treat "all" of your animals as pets, equally, don't you? I applaud the fact that you are in favor of animal rights, and most of us are too. However, there are some animals that can't be saved and others that shouldn't be saved. You can't apply the animal rights stigma to just domesticated animals... It's an all or nothing thing. How is it right to put down a non functioning animal because it's not domesticated and NOT put down a non functioning animal because it is domesticated?  There is twisted logic there. Is it OK to put down a cow because it isn't functioning as intended? Is it OK to put down a horse because it's lame and will never walk again?

I'm not trying to further the animosity that has overflowed here, but trying to illustrate the point that some have/were trying to make. The cow had a purpose. When she couldn't fulfill that purpose, she was butchered and put in the freezer. A pet is purchased for a reason as well... companionship normally being the primary reason. If that pet can't be a companion, for whatever reason; can't be trusted, is unstable, is a biter, use any descriptors you wish, what is to be done with it? Chain it up and make it live in misery because you, the owner made a life long obligation? If it can be re-trained/salvaged then re-homed, then that's a wonderful thing. The problem is, that's not always possible... Life isn't all candy canes and sunshine. Life also isn't black and white...

The discussion started centered around LGDs and the fact that many are thrown away, dumped, etc. when they don't "work out". Many (most!) are dumped or given to shelters because they were purchased for the WRONG reason... to be a pet, and they are NOT pets... a true LGD breed animal is a working dog, NOT a pet. That does NOT mean that they don't become companions to the owner. It doesn't mean that they don't like/want/need human attention. It doesn't mean they are born knowing exactly what to do at birth (though some do). Yes, most still require some training, many require substantial training, and all need training to meet the owners specific expectations and needs.

If a livestock owner buys an LGD to do an LGD's job, and that dog is unable to perform that job, is unable to be trained, for whatever reason (aside from the unwillingness of the owner to properly train it), then what most of us here would want is for that dog to be re-homed in a situation where it WOULD work out. I don't believe ANYONE here was saying that LGD should be shot! Quite the opposite! We were upset because that was happening! We want to SAVE those dogs and TRY to rehabilitate them. That's exactly what SBC was saying, and is doing... trying to save dogs that otherwise would be killed. What was said beyond that was if the (LGD or any) dog can NOT be rehabilitated, can NOT function in some other capacity, then better to put it down than keep it locked in a cage, in misery, the rest of its natural life.

Yes, there are other dogs of whatever breed that have and can guard livestock and farms, homes, possessions, etc. But that doesn't make them an LGD. A Great Dane might retrieve a ball that you throw, but that doesn't make it a retriever (breed).

I'm sorry that you or anyone else got your feelings hurt here. That's NOT what this site and the forums are about. I think many things were said that were taken wrong or misinterpreted in haste and anger, by many, on both sides. @cjc I'm not questioning your morals, nor am I debating or insinuating that you are uneducated. I will say that you are young, and haven't experienced many things that some of us have. Schooling only goes so far, and please, never make the mistake of discounting life's experiences. Many things can only be seen with time. And to realize the truth in that, ALSO takes time.

I don't believe that anyone active on this forum or this thread said or believes that a dog should be put down because it didn't "work out". I believe that everyone on this forum and this thread believes that any animal that CAN be saved, SHOULD be saved, including those that aren't working out for the present owner, but that CAN work out for another owner through re-homing.

I also think that some, if not most of us, are of the opinion that a _dangerous or terminally ill_ animal, that _can NOT be rehabilitated or cured_, should not be kept alive to suffer incarceration in a cage or on a chain, or kept alive to suffer until death. I believe that some if not most of us are of the opinion that if an animal is sick, or diseased, and _can't be cured_, or fixed to the point that it can live a healthy and happy life, that it is inhumane to force that animal to live in agony until it dies of pain and dysfunction or a "natural" death. Unfortunately, some are able to spend more than others in the pursuit of "fixing" a broken animal. Not everyone has the wherewithal to save every animal. I believe that many if not most of us would spend whatever we could afford to help our animals, but we will always put the health and well being of our family above that of any animal, pet or not.

I hope everyone can and will continue to enjoy the forums, despite having differing views and opinions. That's what we are sharing here after all.


----------



## Sumi (Jul 12, 2016)

O.K. guys, I think we're done here...


----------

