# URGENT!!! Really skinny dairy goat needs to gain weight



## Feo

Hey guys, I have a really skinny goat that needs some weight now. She was giving 3-4 cups a milking but now only 2 cups. And I sell my milk as organic so any methods or links of natural links would be great! She is good on CL, CAE, and brucellosis. And she has red eyelids and solid stool so no worms, just skinny. You can clearly see her ribs and her backbone sticks out really bad. Thanks! Here is a not very good pic...


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## Green Acres Farm

Eyelids only check for anemia, not all worms cause anemia. You should get a fecal run. 

So she has tested negative for CAE? What about Johnes?

What brand of feed does she get? What kind of hay? Does she get any legume hay? Minerals?

Dairy goats to tend to be thin, especially when in milk for awhile.

Can you get a pic showing her whole body and from above?


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## Southern by choice

FAMACHA (inner eyelid check) was never intended to be the "be all/end all"  parasite check. It is suppose to be used as a quick check for anemia. Fecal analysis is the MOST important way to determine parasites.
FAMACHA was created for the Barberpole worm only. 

There are other parasites that are not bloodsucking and therefore may not cause anemia but can be robbing your goat of much needed nutrition.

So, first have a fecal run and check for parasites.
Second, diet.

It takes a great deal of energy to produce milk and sustain body condition.
What are you feeding her?
How much?
How long has she been in lactation?


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## Feo

I am feeding her 2 pounds (1 in morning 1 at night) of new country organics goat feed (it is 15% protein). She gets free choice mixed hay that I buy directly from the large animal vet in my area plus free choice loose minerals.  She has been in milk since May, so about 5 months. She is a registered Saanen, and VERY large. Yes, Green Acers Farm. I tested her for Cl, CAE, and Brucellosis 2 months ago and she came back negative on all of them.

   I am actually pretty young, so I can't really afford much more feed. But just because I am young, do not think I am inexperienced. I have gone on many forums and quit because people think I "can't do it" and it gets really annoying when people underestimate you.  But trust me, I know a lot more and have seen a lot more than you would think.

   Anyways, she gets Molly Herbals dietary supplement in her feed everyday and Molly's wormer on schedule. I would be using chemical wormer but she reacts to fenbendazole (the active ingredient in Safeguard) and Ivermectin is not available in my area. Where is a good place to send a fecal? I have seen many places but not all have good reviews. Thanks.

(Edited by staff: 9/14/2016)


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## OneFineAcre

What the others said !!
Get a fecal.
What is your feeding protocol?
Dairy goats can get thin when producing milk.
What kind of goat is she?


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## frustratedearthmother

Not to discount what the others said  at all - but - like Green Acres Farm asked - how much and what are you feeding her? 

I used to work with a vet and we would go on farm calls.  When folks had a skinny animal they would tell us everything they had done....wormings, teeth floated, vitamins for this and supplements for that along with the best feed money can buy.  First question doc would ask - how *much *are you feeding?  All animals are different and some just need more calories to not only support themselves, but to manufacture milk too. 

Definitely get that fecal - but also think about doling out a little more feed/hay.


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## OneFineAcre

frustratedearthmother said:


> Not to discount what the others said  at all - but - like Green Acres Farm asked - how much and what are you feeding her?
> 
> I used to work with a vet and we would go on farm calls.  When folks had a skinny animal they would tell us everything they had done....wormings, teeth floated, vitamins for this and supplements for that along with the best feed money can buy.  First question doc would ask - how *much *are you feeding?  All animals are different and some just need more calories to not only support themselves, but to manufacture milk too.
> 
> Definitely get that fecal - but also think about doling out a little more feed/hay.


x2


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## Southern by choice

I think we are all on the same page... we all want to know more about what and how much she is getting fed.



Green Acres Farm said:


> What brand of feed does she get? What kind of hay? Does she get any legume hay? Minerals?





Southern by choice said:


> What are you feeding her?
> How much?
> How long has she been in lactation?





OneFineAcre said:


> What is your feeding protocol?





frustratedearthmother said:


> how *much *are you feeding?


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## frustratedearthmother

This is weird - but, at least for me, these posts are coming in out of order....  My alert said that Feo  replied 19 minutes ago and the time on her second post says 9am.  Hmmmm...

Where are you that Ivermectin is not available?  You could always try to order it online.  Jeffers Livestock Supply has it, and it's not terribly expensive.


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## samssimonsays

I was feeding what a friend was feeding for HER goats that she milked, which worked amazing for her goats, and it was just not enough for my girl. She dropped weight even with no parasites while milking and she dropped to the 2 cup a day mark as well. I changed feed and beefed up the amount and got her back up to weight as well as her milk production back up to the 6 cups a day mark. Then I started to drop back on the grain until we found the happy ration for HER. This ratio was different for my other doe in milk even with them being the same size. 

My Nubian doe got 2 quarts twice a day of grain. Sometimes more if she seemed to be lacking, some days she ate more, some less.


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## Beekissed

I'll add that even with natural antihelmintics worming on a schedule and using the same concoction all the time will just breed worms that have become resistant to what you are using...in other words, you are breeding a better worm but not doing so much for the goat.   

A lot of folks think that herbal dewormer concoctions will be the final solution but any time one is raising animals, it really needs to be combined with other ways of insuring flock health~ culling for hardiness and parasite resistance, breeding for resistance, rotating pasture or giving enough pasture that they aren't always feeding over their own feces.  

Switch things up, especially if you are going the organic route.  Put some ground ginger root in her feed for a few days and, if you can find some, use a good kelp meal/salt mineral supplement. 



> Some of the more common reasons kelp is used for livestock include:
> 
> 
> Enhancing immune function
> Increasing meat quality
> Reversing depressed immune function
> Reducing the stress associated with weaning
> Weight gain
> What it contains
> 
> Calcium
> Copper
> Dietary Sodium
> Fiber
> Folate
> Iodine
> Iron
> Magnesium
> Manganese
> Pantothenic Acid
> Riboflavin
> Vitamin C
> Vitamin K
> Zinc



She could need extra selenium...a cheap way to get that into the animal is to feed a little BOSS in her daily ration.


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## Southern by choice

First, no worries. There are many young people in the community, some just beginning and some with a great deal of experience and then there is everything in between. 
Often, those responding to a post have no idea the level of experience so we share based on the limited info we have.

Although a fecal is still a great idea I do think feed should be increased.
. 



Feo said:


> I am feeding her 2 pounds (1 in morning 1 at night) of new country organics goat feed (it is 15% protein). She gets free choice mixed hay that I buy directly from the large animal vet in my area plus free choice loose minerals. She has been in milk since May, so about 5 months. She is a registered Saanen, and VERY large.



Off their website- (Country feed organics)
_Feed 1 to 2 pounds Organic Goat Feed per head per day along with adequate good quality pasture or hay. For lactating goats feed 1 pound to 3 pounds per head per day along with adequate forage. Feeding rate may be adjusted for animal size, amount of production desired, and amount and quality of forage available._

I would definitely increase her intake to 3lbs per day but slow not all at once. You may want to consider adding some Beet Pulp and possibly for a little while Chaffhaye. The digestability of the Chaff is excellent and it is a non GMO product. Of course all this needs to be gradual.  Do you know if your hay is tested and the values?
She also may benefit from some B vitamins (injection) this helps increase appetite and goats that get too thin sometimes do not maintain a healthy appetite. It ends up a vicious cycle. 

If your region is deficient in copper and selenium loose minerals may not be enough and this doe play a role in the overall health and condition.

As you know goats need x amount of feed/forage/hay just to maintain themselves, now add in lactation and they need significantly more.

1 lb of our pelleted feed is only about 3 cups . We feed that to our Lamanchas am/pm I would think a Saanen would need a bit more considering they are  a much larger goat.

When looking at this from a production standpoint. She was producing only 1 qt am/pm at her optimum... and is now down to a pint. Saanen typically milk a minimum of 1 gallon per day. 
This is a bit unusual for her to have low production.

Since you are using an herbal dewormer you really want to check that fecal asap. Like any product there can be resistance. Also even with "natural" herbal dewormers there can be toxicity.


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## Latestarter

Greetings and welcome @Feo  Good to have you here with us on BYH. Sorry to hear that you're dealing with a skinny goat. You've already received a bunch of good advice from the experienced goat owners on the forum. Sounds like you're doing just about everything right, really good to hear that you've done the testing! But I don't think you're feeding her enough grain/protein for her to maintain weight and produce milk. A full sized Saanen should be producing a gallon of milk a day or more, especially if she comes from a good, established dairy line.... No need to go on...

Looks like SBC beat me to the punch with what she just posted  Thanks for saving me font SBC!


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## Southern by choice

@Beekissed  I love kelp, we used it a great deal her but our water is so high in iron and so is the kelp we had to discontinue it.
Hoping to get back to it when we move. 90% is utilized over only 45-60 % of the common loose minerals... but you probabaly already knew that.  

The feed the poster is using has a range with the Ca to P ratio I would be concerned about the BOSS because it is so high in P and the feed itself isn't very high in Ca.

What do you think?


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## Feo

frustratedearthmother said:


> This is weird - but, at least for me, these posts are coming in out of order....  My alert said that Feo  replied 19 minutes ago and the time on her second post says 9am.  Hmmmm...
> 
> Where are you that Ivermectin is not available?  You could always try to order it online.  Jeffers Livestock Supply has it, and it's not terribly expensive.


Sorry!! My internet is very limited so it take a long time to post I will tell you what i do again because everyone is asking..
I am feeding her 2 pounds (1 in morning 1 at night) of new country organics goat feed (it is 15% protein). She gets free choice mixed hay that I buy directly from the large animal vet in my area plus free choice loose minerals. She has been in milk since May, so about 5 months. She is a registered Saanen, and VERY large. Yes, Green Acers Farm. I tested her for Cl, CAE, and Brucellosis 2 months ago and she came back negative on all of them. 

Sorry again if my replys come out of order.


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## Feo

frustratedearthmother said:


> This is weird - but, at least for me, these posts are coming in out of order....  My alert said that Feo  replied 19 minutes ago and the time on her second post says 9am.  Hmmmm...
> 
> Where are you that Ivermectin is not available?  You could always try to order it online.  Jeffers Livestock Supply has it, and it's not terribly expensive.


 I will try to get Ivermectin from there. Thx


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## Feo

Southern by choice said:


> First, no worries. There are many young people in the community, some just beginning and some with a great deal of experience and then there is everything in between.
> Often, those responding to a post have no idea the level of experience so we share based on the limited info we have.
> 
> Although a fecal is still a great idea I do think feed should be increased.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Off their website- (Country feed organics)
> _Feed 1 to 2 pounds Organic Goat Feed per head per day along with adequate good quality pasture or hay. For lactating goats feed 1 pound to 3 pounds per head per day along with adequate forage. Feeding rate may be adjusted for animal size, amount of production desired, and amount and quality of forage available._
> 
> I would definitely increase her intake to 3lbs per day but slow not all at once. You may want to consider adding some Beet Pulp and possibly for a little while Chaffhaye. The digestability of the Chaff is excellent and it is a non GMO product. Of course all this needs to be gradual.  Do you know if your hay is tested and the values?
> She also may benefit from some B vitamins (injection) this helps increase appetite and goats that get too thin sometimes do not maintain a healthy appetite. It ends up a vicious cycle.
> 
> If your region is deficient in copper and selenium loose minerals may not be enough and this doe play a role in the overall health and condition.
> 
> As you know goats need x amount of feed/forage/hay just to maintain themselves, now add in lactation and they need significantly more.
> 
> 1 lb of our pelleted feed is only about 3 cups . We feed that to our Lamanchas am/pm I would think a Saanen would need a bit more considering they are  a much larger goat.
> 
> When looking at this from a production standpoint. She was producing only 1 qt am/pm at her optimum... and is now down to a pint. Saanen typically milk a minimum of 1 gallon per day.
> This is a bit unusual for her to have low production.
> 
> Since you are using an herbal dewormer you really want to check that fecal asap. Like any product there can be resistance. Also even with "natural" herbal dewormers there can be toxicity.


 
Thank you!! And I will expliane more in detail her feeding routine. It is pretty complicated. 
MORNING:
1 lb goat feed  
2.5 g probiotic powder 
1-2 teaspoons Molly's herbals dietary supplement
1 tbs. Molly's herbals wormer (only on Mondays because it is a preventive)
sometimes a vitamin A tablet for her coat to keep in good condition
ALL DAY:
Hay
Grass and forage (1/2 acre)
Water
Loose minerals
NIGHT:
1 lb goat feed 
Safe kitchen scraps 

She also gets a copper bolus about every 8 months.


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## Feo

Southern by choice said:


> First, no worries. There are many young people in the community, some just beginning and some with a great deal of experience and then there is everything in between.
> Often, those responding to a post have no idea the level of experience so we share based on the limited info we have.
> 
> Although a fecal is still a great idea I do think feed should be increased.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Off their website- (Country feed organics)
> _Feed 1 to 2 pounds Organic Goat Feed per head per day along with adequate good quality pasture or hay. For lactating goats feed 1 pound to 3 pounds per head per day along with adequate forage. Feeding rate may be adjusted for animal size, amount of production desired, and amount and quality of forage available._
> 
> I would definitely increase her intake to 3lbs per day but slow not all at once. You may want to consider adding some Beet Pulp and possibly for a little while Chaffhaye. The digestability of the Chaff is excellent and it is a non GMO product. Of course all this needs to be gradual.  Do you know if your hay is tested and the values?
> She also may benefit from some B vitamins (injection) this helps increase appetite and goats that get too thin sometimes do not maintain a healthy appetite. It ends up a vicious cycle.
> 
> If your region is deficient in copper and selenium loose minerals may not be enough and this doe play a role in the overall health and condition.
> 
> As you know goats need x amount of feed/forage/hay just to maintain themselves, now add in lactation and they need significantly more.
> 
> 1 lb of our pelleted feed is only about 3 cups . We feed that to our Lamanchas am/pm I would think a Saanen would need a bit more considering they are  a much larger goat.
> 
> When looking at this from a production standpoint. She was producing only 1 qt am/pm at her optimum... and is now down to a pint. Saanen typically milk a minimum of 1 gallon per day.
> This is a bit unusual for her to have low production.
> 
> Since you are using an herbal dewormer you really want to check that fecal asap. Like any product there can be resistance. Also even with "natural" herbal dewormers there can be toxicity.



She is nearly 8 years old but when she was younger she did give 1.25+ gallons a day. And I do know a lot about herbs and there toxicity. I have researched and own many books on it. Thank you again!


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## Goat Whisperer

I agree with the others! 
Have you checked to see how much the vet charges for a fecal? The natural wormers are better as a preventive. Once the goat has a high worm load most of these "herbal wormers" don't do the job. 
I you cannot have your vet run a fecal, you can mail a sample to the link below. I believe it is only $5 a sample and can possible save your goats life.
http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php

As the others said, increase her grain! Look and see if you can get a few bales of Alfalfa or Chaffhaye. You need to be careful with the Chaffhaye though, as it tends to mold and needs to be used up quickly. 

If you order the Ivemectin from jeffers, you can get the Normectin. The Normectin is less $ than the "name brand" Ivomec. They are both 1% ivermectin. 
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/noromectin-injection


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## NH homesteader

FYI I just checked and it is $10/sample.  Still cheaper than the vet though!


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## Feo

Goat Whisperer said:


> I agree with the others!
> Have you checked to see how much the vet charges for a fecal? The natural wormers are better as a preventive. Once the goat has a high worm load most of these "herbal wormers" don't do the job.
> I you cannot have your vet run a fecal, you can mail a sample to the link below. I believe it is only $5 a sample and can possible save your goats life.
> http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php
> 
> As the others said, increase her grain! Look and see if you can get a few bales of Alfalfa or Chaffhaye. You need to be careful with the Chaffhaye though, as it tends to mold and needs to be used up quickly.
> 
> If you order the Ivemectin from jeffers, you can get the Normectin. The Normectin is less $ than the "name brand" Ivomec. They are both 1% ivermectin.
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/noromectin-injection



Thanks for the info. Is Chaffhaye expensive? Like i said, I can't afford much.


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## frustratedearthmother

I haven't bought any since last winter - but it was about $14.00 for 50 lbs.  I think it's 50lbs...  I use it more in cooler weather because where I am (hot and humid) it does need to be used up within a week or so.

Price might have changed since last year... I need to check.


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## Feo

Dose Tractor Supply or Southern States carry chaffhaye? I looked the website and it had no results but I think I've seen there.


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## Goat Whisperer

We get our Chaffhaye for $14 a bale. You just need to use it up quickly so it doesn't mold.

@NH homesteader Thanks! I know it used to be $5, but $10 is still a VERY good price!


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## Goat Whisperer

Feo said:


> Dose Tractor Supply or Southern States carry chaffhaye? I looked the website and it had no results but I think I've seen there.


TSC probably doesn't. 
SS may. Call them and ask  You should also ask about the Ivermectin too. 

Forgot to ask, what kind of reaction did the goat have to the Fenben.? That is one of the safest wormers, it is almost impossible to OD them. Would love to know what symptoms she displayed.


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> @Beekissed  I love kelp, we used it a great deal her but our water is so high in iron and so is the kelp we had to discontinue it.
> Hoping to get back to it when we move. 90% is utilized over only 45-60 % of the common loose minerals... but you probabaly already knew that.
> 
> The feed the poster is using has a range with the Ca to P ratio I would be concerned about the BOSS because it is so high in P and the feed itself isn't very high in Ca.
> 
> What do you think?



I love the kelp meal too and used it for sheep, cows and chickens...I imagine the dogs helped themselves to it also.  Good, good stuff!  

I'd say that depends on how much BOSS is given...a little bit in the feed ration shouldn't throw off any balance of nutrients to much as to affect the animal.  If their balance is that delicate that it can be affected negatively by a little BOSS to the mix for awhile, I'd cull the animal.  Needs too much fussy babying around to stay healthy.  

Actually, viewing her age and the problems she's having, I'd have an eye on culling her from a flock...unless the whole flock are having similar issues, it becomes a single animal problem(though I'm guessing this poster doesn't have a flock and doesn't have to work on flock development).


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## Feo

Goat Whisperer said:


> TSC probably doesn't.
> SS may. Call them and ask  You should also ask about the Ivermectin too.
> 
> Forgot to ask, what kind of reaction did the goat have to the Fenben.? That is one of the safest wormers, it is almost impossible to OD them. Would love to know what symptoms she displayed.


She may have had a reaction to another ing. in the bottle but I dont know. She got runny eyes, runny nose, and dierrea. I though it was coincidental that she got sick but it has happened the past 3 time she got a dose. And it is not moldy or anything because I wormed my other goats with the same bottle and they were fine. Could I use horse Ivermectin? We have some for the horses and if I would not have to buy a bottle that would be great.


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## frustratedearthmother

My TS does not carry Chaffhaye - but they do carry "compressed Alfalfa/Grass" bales.    I've never used it.   Reviews are mixed, but ...

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...pressed-bale-approximately-50-lb?cm_vc=-10005


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## Feo

Beekissed said:


> I love the kelp meal too and used it for sheep, cows and chickens...I imagine the dogs helped themselves to it also.  Good, good stuff!
> 
> I'd say that depends on how much BOSS is given...a little bit in the feed ration shouldn't throw off any balance of nutrients to much as to affect the animal.  If their balance is that delicate that it can be affected negatively by a little BOSS to the mix for awhile, I'd cull the animal.  Needs too much fussy babying around to stay healthy.
> 
> Actually, viewing her age and the problems she's having, I'd have an eye on culling her from a flock...unless the whole flock are having similar issues, it becomes a single animal problem(though I'm guessing this poster doesn't have a flock and doesn't have to work on flock development).



 I not only bought this goat as a dairy animal but she is also my personal pet and i would never dream of culling her unless absolutely necessary. I will cull my meat goat in about a week though so it is not like I am too sissy to do it. No offence, but please do not suggest that anymore thank you for understanding.


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## Southern by choice

You can find a dealer here-
http://chaffhaye.com/

The mixed stuff at TSG is not quite the same.

I hope you stay with us on the forum.
Always nice to see how things progress and to have another in the community.  

This is a really friendly site.
We can squabble and sometimes disagree but that happens in any "family".  

So ... Want to officially welcome you!
Welcome to BYH!  
Where we love pics and all things farm!

So maybe you can tell us about you and your farm and for goodness sake we really are picture addicts... so pics please!


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## Southern by choice

We were posting at the same time...


Feo said:


> I will cull my meat goat in about a week though so it is not like I am too sissy to do it. No offence, but please do not suggest that anymore thank you for understanding.



Keep in mind when people suggest culling they are not saying killing.
We are not a politically correct forum but we do try to be sensitive.


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## Hens and Roos

Goat Whisperer said:


> I agree with the others!
> Have you checked to see how much the vet charges for a fecal? The natural wormers are better as a preventive. Once the goat has a high worm load most of these "herbal wormers" don't do the job.
> I you cannot have your vet run a fecal, you can mail a sample to the link below. I believe it is only $5 a sample and can possible save your goats life.
> http://www.midamericaagresearch.net/instructions.php
> 
> As the others said, increase her grain! Look and see if you can get a few bales of Alfalfa or Chaffhaye. You need to be careful with the Chaffhaye though, as it tends to mold and needs to be used up quickly.
> 
> If you order the Ivemectin from jeffers, you can get the Normectin. The Normectin is less $ than the "name brand" Ivomec. They are both 1% ivermectin.
> https://www.jefferspet.com/products/noromectin-injection



that's a great link to have regarding the fecal samples- thanks for sharing.  I will be reading it.

Welcome to BYH, glad you joined us!


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## frustratedearthmother

Oops - need to welcome you too!  Hope you get this gal fixed up and hang around.  What other goats/animals do you have?


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## Feo

Oh wait, Beekissed did you mean the dictionary definition of culling (separating from the herd) or buccaneering her? Where I live, culling is what some people say when they mean butchering. But apparently the real meaning is just to separate from the herd. sorry if I was wrong


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## Feo

Feo said:


> Oh wait, Beekissed did you mean the dictionary definition of culling (separating from the herd) or buccaneering her? Where I live, culling is what some people say when they mean butchering. But apparently the real meaning is just to separate from the herd. sorry if I was wrong


 Oops, i was autocorreted and this says buccaneering her. I meant butchering. sorry I had to edit my apology.


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## Feo

Thanks Southern By Choice, frustratedearmother and Hens And Roos!! Never been welcomed to a site... I own 2 mini rex rabbits, named Ace and Kit. Kit is about to give birth. The goat I posted about is my registered Saanen girl, named Willow. Another one I have is a Pygmy goat dibbed Angel. She is the exact opposite of an angel though LOL. My meat goat (who has no name) is going to be butchered soon. I have a duckling named Miracle (there is a reason she has that name, I'll tell you sometime) , one bantam chicken named Sunny, and the best horse in the world named Pippi Longstocking.  I used to own more goats, but I sold them a couple month ago.


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## Hens and Roos

Would love to see pictures of your critters


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## Latestarter

To cull an animal, like you said, technically means to remove it from the herd. How that's done is up to the herd owner... they could simply separate it so it is no longer part of the general breeding populace, they could sell it to permanently remove it from breeding stock and make it someone's pet, or they could sell it at auction or privately or use it themselves as a meat animal for butcher/processing. No problem for you keeping her as a pet


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## Beekissed

No offense taken...but when you ask for advice on a public forum, you'll get many suggestions and many of them a valid point that may or may not be to your personal taste or liking.  

I'd not be likely to suggest culling her once again after reading the sentence "I would never dream of culling her", so no need to ask me not to suggest it again.


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## Feo

Hens and Roos said:


> Would love to see pictures of your critters


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## Feo

Hey, can you use horse Ivermectin for goats? I have some in the barn that is used for horses. So could I use alfalfa instead of chaffhaye? I tractor supply does not carry it and with shipping buying chaffhaye from the site is too expensive.

By the way, what are these "Trophy Points" on my profile? What are they for? Just wondering.


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## Southern by choice

Trophy Points-
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/byh-trophies-get-a-trophy-easy-peasy.27270/#post-345383


Alfalfa is fine. You won't get the same as Chaff but it is the better hay for production. 

I don't know anything about the ivermectin for horses.

 The pics!  But where are the rabbits? 

Our Rabbits forum has grown quite a bit over the past 2 years. 
Great group too!


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## babsbag

Is the horse ivermectin a paste? I am sure you could use it but figuring out the dose might be tricky. If it is 1% ivermectin it would me 1 ML per 50 lbs but I am not sure how the horse stuff is dosed. 

I haven't said anything about your skinny girl as every one else seems to have it covered pretty well and I've been installing a kitchen sink today so a little busy.  My goats can get very very skinny when in milk, we call it "putting it all in the bucket." I have tried just about every feed supplement out there and have found that Calf Manna and more alfalfa is about as good as it gets if they are skinny due to feed. Calf Manna is at TSC but make sure you follow the dose if you decide to use it. 

Hopefully it is just her needing more feed and nothing more. This year I have been able to get dairy quality alfalfa and my goats look better than ever. 

And welcome to BYH from sunny CA. This is a great site, hope you enjoy your time here. 

BTW, if you are still selling your milk there is a withdrawal for ivermectin, not sure off hand what it is, maybe @Southern by choice knows. Worms aren't a big problem in my hot dry miserable area so I am not a pro on the topic.


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## Feo

Okay so if I go to Tractor supply (it is 40 minutes away so I have to plan my trips) I should get alfalfa hay (would alfalfa cubes work?), beet pulp if available, and maybe Calf Manna?  Tell me if I am missing anything Then send in a fecal, I will have to order some more goat feed soon because the horses broke in the barn today and ate 10 pounds of it. Chubby horses


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## Feo

Southern by choice said:


> Trophy Points-
> http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/byh-trophies-get-a-trophy-easy-peasy.27270/#post-345383
> 
> 
> Alfalfa is fine. You won't get the same as Chaff but it is the better hay for production.
> 
> I don't know anything about the ivermectin for horses.
> 
> The pics!  But where are the rabbits?
> 
> Our Rabbits forum has grown quite a bit over the past 2 years.
> Great group too!


I will get pics of the rabbit tomorrow!


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## OneFineAcre

Feo said:


> Okay so if I go to Tractor supply (it is 40 minutes away so I have to plan my trips) I should get alfalfa hay (would alfalfa cubes work?), beet pulp if available, and maybe Calf Manna?  Tell me if I am missing anything Then send in a fecal, I will have to order some more goat feed soon because the horses broke in the barn today and ate 10 pounds of it. Chubby horses


Going back to your OP
I thought you were doing organic?
TSC alfalfa or alfalfa pellets are not organic
Where are you located?
Can you not buy alfalfa other than at TSC?


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## Feo

OneFineAcre said:


> Going back to your OP
> I thought you were doing organic?
> TSC alfalfa or alfalfa pellets are not organic
> Where are you located?
> Can you not buy alfalfa other than at TSC?



Yes, I would love to do all organic but I can't find most of the products in organic and if there were I am sure they would be very pricy. So I will just have to inform my milk customers that their milk will not be purely organic I could go to Southern States, but the one that is closest to me is very small and does not have very many things for goats anyway. OneFineAcre- I just checked craigslist and there is no alfalfa in my area.


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## OneFineAcre

Well then ditch the organic feed and find something less expensive and feed her more of it
I feed my Nigerians as much as you feed your Sannens
And get either the compressed alfalfa or pellets and feed her more


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## Goat Whisperer

OneFineAcre said:


> Well then ditch the organic feed and find something less expensive and feed her more of it
> I feed my Nigerians as much as you feed your Sannens
> And get either the compressed alfalfa or pellets and feed her more


You feed your Nigerians 2lbs of feed per day?!?!


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## OneFineAcre

Goat Whisperer said:


> You feed your Nigerians 2lbs of feed per day?!?!


She's not feeding her goat properly
That's why she is to thin 
Thank you


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## Goat Whisperer

OneFineAcre said:


> She's not feeding her goat properly
> That's why she is to thin
> Thank you


Well I do agree this goat is most likely not getting enough food to sustain itself, I was surprised that your NDs get 2lbs a day. 
Mine get fat off of 2 cups a day. 
As long the goat is healthy I'm happy. I don't care how much or how little it needs to be fed.


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## Goat Whisperer

Or are you saying you feed 2lbs per group or per head?


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## OneFineAcre

I think I'm about done here


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## Goat Whisperer




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## OneFineAcre

Her goat is thin because she isn't feeding properly
Apparently I mispoke when I said "as much"
I should have said " as well"
Now I'm done


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## Southern by choice

Back to the OP -

I am curious, I may have missed this if you had posted already... was this sudden or gradual? I am not sure of any of us asked this. 

I was thinking about it because I have a Lamancha doe that is a bit fickle and she goes up and down with condition. She is a 140 lb doe but will go down to 128 then back up. The wind changes and so does her weight  

She is the only difficult one in our herd. 

If this has been gradual that is one thing, if it was sudden that is another. I know @babsbag  likes the calf manna. I do but I worry about the protein so we don't use it often but that may be a good choice. Keep it simple.  I only recommended the chaff because it helps and is pretty efficient both cost wise and nutritionally. If there is no dealer then of course it wouldn't be an option. It is also GMO free.

Also does your doe eat all the feed? I know sometimes with mixes like you have they will pick out just what they want. With pellets they can't do that.

I never go by what is suggested... I go by the doe and condition.


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## babsbag

I have 40 goats +/- (haven't counted lately). Not all of them are adults, but most of them are mature Alpines and LaManchas. I feed about 175 lbs of hay a day. That is almost 5 lbs of hay per goats. This is straight alfalfa. I also feed my does in milk about 4-6 cups of 16% grain once a day. For the first time in 8 years I don't have a skinny goat in the herd.  I also make sure they have a mineral that they like and that they are eating and I supplement them with Multi-min  90 , it is an injectable mineral for selenium, copper, zinc, and magnesium. 

I really think that the minerals play a big roll in the overall condition. Also, the hay I am feeding this year is higher TDN than what I have had in the past. 

I would get alfalfa pellets, the cubes can be a stiff curve for them and some would rather starve than try and chew those things; not what you want right now.  Also, Purina makes a goat chow that is pretty good, just make sure you get the one that isn't medicated, read the tags.


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## frustratedearthmother

Goat Whisperer said:


> Mine get fat off of 2 cups a day.



Well.... she says in a whisper:    When I was showing, my show herd had self-feeders full of grain in every pen and free choice alfalfa.  I know, crazy  huh?   But, back then in the Pygmy world - wider was better.  When one of my buck's won his last GC, he was so fat he couldn't even breed a doe.  

That was one of my last shows - might have been THE last one.  I took that boy home and got the weight off of him and he lived to be nearly 12.


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## Feo

Yes, I am in the south. I live in mideast part of Virginia. I have never heard of perennial peanut.  I will look though!


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## Feo

Southern by choice said:


> Back to the OP -
> 
> I am curious, I may have missed this if you had posted already... was this sudden or gradual? I am not sure of any of us asked this.
> 
> I was thinking about it because I have a Lamancha doe that is a bit fickle and she goes up and down with condition. She is a 140 lb doe but will go down to 128 then back up. The wind changes and so does her weight
> 
> She is the only difficult one in our herd.
> 
> If this has been gradual that is one thing, if it was sudden that is another. I know @babsbag  likes the calf manna. I do but I worry about the protein so we don't use it often but that may be a good choice. Keep it simple.  I only recommended the chaff because it helps and is pretty efficient both cost wise and nutritionally. If there is no dealer then of course it wouldn't be an option. It is also GMO free.
> 
> Also does your doe eat all the feed? I know sometimes with mixes like you have they will pick out just what they want. With pellets they can't do that.
> 
> I never go by what is suggested... I go by the doe and condition.



It was rather sudden, in about 4 days. She does pick through her feed, leaving the kelp meal but how i get her to eat it is  I just put molasses on it. I do think I will try Calf Manna and give her more feed. And maybe get alfalfa. Will her backbone fill out if she gains weight? It always bothers me that it sticks out so badly.


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## Feo

Well lots of people grow alfalfa but I am in a large (117 acre) farm in the middle of the city. That is why there are no farm stores or hay balers near me. So if I was to get some I would have  to drive an hour away.


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## babsbag

Weight would help with her backbone but some dairy goats always have a prevalent spine.


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## Feo

I got some pictures!


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## Southern by choice

Feo said:


> Well lots of people grow alfalfa but I am in a large (117 acre) farm in the middle of the city. That is why there are no farm stores or hay balers near me. So if I was to get some I would have  to drive an hour away.





Green Acres Farm said:


> I know what you mean! Hay is $7.50 a bale at TSC which is 30 minutes away, the closest we can get hay. They can really take advantage of people who don't live out in the country and raise prices super high.



I know people who drive out of state to get their hay. Most people I know drive at least an hour away (one way) to get good quality hay.

TSC is not taking advantage of you.  Most people have NO IDEA what it cost to ship a tractor trailer load in. It is all by weight and it is expensive. TSC needs to also make money to pay employees etc.
Companies have to pay for shipping lanes, as well as with all the new and constantly ever changing laws and rules for drivers, one their alloted time is up they MUST park the  truck.  It doesn't matter if they were stuck behind an accident for 3 hours and never moved... once that time is up  that's it. 

Hay is costly to grow, costly to cut, bale, backage add ship. AND it is also greatly affected by weather...  I know many hay people... they aren't getting rich off of you -trust me.


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## NH homesteader

Our local feed store sells hay for over $8 a bale.  It's amazingly expensive but it's really good hay and I know they have to have it trucked in and it's stored off site so it is basically trucked twice.  I grimaced when I had to buy it a few times last year but that was my own fault for not stocking up! And I was thankful that they had hay when everyone else was running  out! 

This year...  We've had a major drought and I'm stocking up asap so I don't have to pay even more if I run out in winter!


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## Southern by choice

An average sq of alfalfa here is $14


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## NH homesteader

How big of a bale is that?


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## NH homesteader

I would not  be able to afford goats if I paid that much a bale! Or I would have to sell a lot of milk to make up for it. Yikes.


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## Goat Whisperer

frustratedearthmother said:


> Well.... she says in a whisper:    When I was showing, my show herd had self-feeders full of grain in every pen and free choice alfalfa.  I know, crazy  huh?   But, back then in the Pygmy world - wider was better.  When one of my buck's won his last GC, he was so fat he couldn't even breed a doe.
> 
> That was one of my last shows - might have been THE last one.  I took that boy home and got the weight off of him and he lived to be nearly 12.


I know quite a few folks that free-feed their standard dairy goats. I could free-feed some of the lamanchas with no issues, but my dwarfs would eat themselves to death. Same goes with milk! 
I don't know if its my ND's or what, but I swear they get fat if they even look at feed  Could be they are the red/tan that and most of them have the same problem. One of our other ND's is always a great weight, never fat or skinny but she is a whole different line and body structure. That is where knowing your goat is key, others need more feed than others- whether its 2 cups or 2 pounds- keeping the goat healthy is top priority  .
I don't care how much (or little) someone needs to feed their goat/s, as long as the goat is a decent weight it has no affect on me whatsoever.


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## frustratedearthmother

Well said, GW! 

Grass hay at a feed store here is *minimum* $10.00 for a square bale and alfalfa at least $18.  On the other hand, I can get a big 1000-1200lb bale of prairie hay for $35.00 - $40.00.  "Horse" hay - usually Bermuda - can be closer to $60 - 70 a round bale.  Glad my herd will eat prairie hay - that's what grows in their pasture, so they're satisfied with that.  But, they do appreciate Chaffhaye, and they get it when conditions call for it.


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## babsbag

I pay 15.50 for 100lb bale of alfalfa or 170.00 for 1200-1400 lb.


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## Goat Whisperer

@Feo Remember to go SLOWLY when introducing these new feeds! 
Obviously you want to get her back into shape, but rushing to quickly could have a detrimental affect. 

I read a while back about someone who suddenly lost 6 goats within 72 hours. They sent them out for a necropsy and there was 
No bloat 
No coccidia
No parasites
Nothing contagious
Rumens full of grain and hay 

It ended up being *Protein induced pneumonia. *This happened when they suddenly switched the hay they were feeding. It was to much protein to fast. 

You are feeding a 15% feed I believe you said.
Calf manna is 25% 
DO NOT give her more then the bag says. Go very slow with this one! 
The beet pulp and Chaffhaye are considerably less, but you still need to go slow. Alfalfa hay can have a higher protein level but it depends on when it was cut etc.


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## Feo

Southern by choice said:


> An average sq of alfalfa here is $14


That is the most expensive hay I have ever heard of!! At my cousins (in Pennsylvania)  I have been to there auction and hays is $2.00 a mixed square bale (40-47 lbs) and $3-3.50 for alfalfa. The problem is I am too young to drive & I can't get anyone to drive me that far for hay. $14 is a lot- but I am sure you animals are worth it. 

(Edited by staff 9/15/2016)


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## Feo

Goat Whisperer said:


> @Feo Remember to go SLOWLY when introducing these new feeds!
> Obviously you want to get her back into shape, but rushing to quickly could have a detrimental affect.
> 
> I read a while back about someone who suddenly lost 6 goats within 72 hours. They sent them out for a necropsy and there was
> No bloat
> No coccidia
> No parasites
> Nothing contagious
> Rumens full of grain and hay
> 
> It ended up being *Protein induced pneumonia. *This happened when they suddenly switched the hay they were feeding. It was to much protein to fast.
> 
> You are feeding a 15% feed I believe you said.
> Calf manna is 25%
> DO NOT give her more then the bag says. Go very slow with this one!
> The beet pulp and Chaffhaye are considerably less, but you still need to go slow. Alfalfa hay can have a higher protein level but it depends on when it was cut etc.



So is there a better one for me to get?


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## Southern by choice

We have paid much worse than that. Fortunately we buy the large 1000 lb bales now.... still costly.


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## Feo

Okay, I just ordered 50 lbs of goat feed, 50 lbs of alfalfa pellets, and I will go to Tractor Supply to get beet pulp on Tuesday. I decided to get beet pulp because I have had success with my horse gaining weight with it, and is very high in fiber and calories. So if in total she is supposed to be getting 3 pounds a day (or more, we'll see) I should give her 4 cups normal feed, 1.5 cup beet pulp, and 4 cups alfalfa pellets (this is going by 3 cups in a pound). Is that right? Or is beet pulp an addition to feed, not part of the daily 3 pounds? For my horse, it was added to her normal feed amount but she was large enough to handle it if it swelled, and I dont know if my goats rumen is.


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## babsbag

I have read about the swelling of beet pulp but never experienced a problem with it. What you have proposed sounds like a good starting place.   She will be getting hay in addition to this right? I would try and leave hay in front of her all of the time. Did you look for the Chaffehaye? Or was that even mentioned in this thread?    

Are you still planning on sending in the fecal?


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## Feo

Thanks! Yes, she always has hay available. The Chaffhaye is not anywhere near here so sadly I won't be able to try it. I will send in the fecal sometime before Wednesday.


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## babsbag

I have a friend that was keeping her goats in very good condition with alfalfa pellets, that's it. She has since gotten a truck and get hay, but for over a year she fed only pellets. I am not suggesting that as they need the long stem fiber, but hers did ok.  

You have minerals out for her too?


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## Feo

Yes. Always access to loose minerals and fresh water.


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## Goat Whisperer

Glad you are still getting the fecal run. 

If you are worried about the beet pulp expanding just soak it prior to feeding. Add a little molasses if you need to.


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## Alicia

Yes soak the beet pulp before feeding....uptake is much easier on the goat. 
We have been putting weight on our goats with black oil sunflower seeds, Timothy hay pellets, and good old vegetable oil to coat everything.


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## Feo

Oh my,  I DID NOT know that my thread is the featered one of BYH!!!!!! I am so red right now....  I can't believe it!   Gosh,  I've got a famous goat! She is doing good though and her milk is not going down anymore. 

Thank you for making me famous


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## Southern by choice




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## Alicia

glad she is doing better!


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## Feo

UPDATE: My goat is doing great. Thanks you guys for telling me to up he feed intake, I think it really helped. I would guess she has gained 7+ pounds and slowly more.


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## Southern by choice




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## Feo

Whoa! No one has ever replied that fast!


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## Southern by choice

LOL I just opened BYH- I am TRYING to work on my website. LOL I figured it's like 2 years- I should update.


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## Feo

You did it again! You are making a website?  What will it be called? I would love to see it when you are done. I am also in the prosses of making a small website, to sell my soap etc. and to tell the ridiculous stories of my animals. It is called The Milking Stand and I hope to be finished and get it published by next week.


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## Feo

Feo said:


> You did it again! You are making a website?  What will it be called? I would love to see it when you are done. I am also in the prosses of making a small website, to sell my soap etc. and to tell the ridiculous stories of my animals. It is called The Milking Stand and I hope to be finished and get it published by next week.


Oh never mind, I just realized you already had a website. Looks cool!


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## Southern by choice

Actually I am dividing the site. I have a lot of articles not published etc... I want to separate it so info is on the main site and our Dairy goats/pedigrees and breeding line up on another. Easier for me to manage. They will be linked.


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## Goat Whisperer

Glad she is doing better!


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## babsbag

Really glad that your goat is doing better. 

I love the name of your site, that is really catchy. As a fellow soap maker I would love to see some pictures of your creations.


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## Feo

Thanks all!
Here are some pics of my soaps but they dont look very good because the drying shelf i built is right next to the AC, and that cools them very fast making them look dusty.


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## Feo

Feo said:


> Thanks all!
> Here are some pics of my soaps but they dont look very good because the drying shelf i built is right next to the AC, and that cools them very fast making them look dusty.
> View attachment 22708 View attachment 22709 View attachment 22710 View attachment 22711 View attachment 22712



And sorry the lavender flowers look like mouse poop


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## Dage

frustratedearthmother said:


> Not to discount what the others said  at all - but - like Green Acres Farm asked - how much and what are you feeding her?
> 
> I used to work with a vet and we would go on farm calls.  When folks had a skinny animal they would tell us everything they had done....wormings, teeth floated, vitamins for this and supplements for that along with the best feed money can buy.  First question doc would ask - how *much *are you feeding?  All animals are different and some just need more calories to not only support themselves, but to manufacture milk too.
> 
> Definitely get that fecal - but also think about doling out a little more feed/hay.



I second that!  I have a Saanen and she can out eat the rest of my goats (Nubians) any day! We do grain feed our goats and they are also free roaming for now...HA! I have the tendency to think she´s not getting ENOUGH! Also I wonder if she is calcium deficient by the look of her coat? A fecal would definitely end the debate!


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## babsbag

The soap looks nice. I am struggling with the photography part for my website, they never look as good in the pictures. Lavender is hard to work with, mine always turns brown. I need to get busy this week and make some soap, it is supposed to rain so that will give me an excuse to stay inside and make soap.


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## Feo

babsbag said:


> The soap looks nice. I am struggling with the photography part for my website, they never look as good in the pictures. Lavender is hard to work with, mine always turns brown. I need to get busy this week and make some soap, it is supposed to rain so that will give me an excuse to stay inside and make soap.



What is your website called?I would love to see it!


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## babsbag

I don't have anything on the site right now but it is http://beeudderlyhappy.com/site/

I have been busy building a dairy and have really let the soap and lotion take a break. I made 30 bottles of lotion last week and one person bought 27 of them so now I need to make more. And with Christmas coming I need to do some soap too.


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## Feo

I love that! Now _that _is a catchy name! How do you make lotion? I have tried but it was really bad. Or at least i think the recipe was. It was super oily because the only 2 ingredients were coconut oil and beeswax.

By the way I just realized the word Feo in Spanish means ugly. I did not mean that I just liked it as short for Feodora, which is the name of the main character in my favorite book. My real name is Anna.


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## ragdollcatlady

Feo said:


> By the way I just realized the word Feo in Spanish means ugly. I did not mean that I just liked it as short for Feodora, which is the name of the main character in my favorite book. My real name is Anna.



 I believe you can ask the moderators to change your handle/profile name, once. Especially if you didn't know that the meaning was a bit unflattering.


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## babsbag

I posted a recipe for lotion a few weeks ago, here is the link. 

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/goat-milk-lotion.34498/page-2#post-447667

It sounds like your lotion was more of a solid lotion, like a bar???


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