# Pygmies.....Copper or no copper???   More info added post #7



## Thomas423 (Jul 17, 2009)

I switched feed stores a few months ago and I asked for the sweet kind because that's all my girls will eat.   When I told him that they were pygmy goats he told me that pygmies needed "no copper" feed.   It was the sweet feed and the girls loved it so I thought all was good.   The bag's tag is even labled "no copper"

Now I've been hearing that pygmies *DO* need copper and can become copper deficient.

So....BYH experts.....which is it?   Copper or no copper??
Why would the feed be produced with no copper if they need copper in their diets?
Also, if they *do* need copper what is the best way to add it to their diet without changing feed?  (they like and actually eat the feed)

Thanks all
Anne


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## username taken (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes, all goats need copper. 

I have no idea why they would make the pygmy feed without copper ... probably the same reason they make 'Goat Blocks' without copper  go figure

easiest way if you dont want to change their feed is give them a mineral block high in copper, or alternatively a loose mineral high in copper (it doesnt have to be for goats, it can be for horses or cattle)


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## Chaty (Jul 17, 2009)

Yes they need copper and it sounds like its sheep feed with no copper in it. I dont feed mine any type of feed with molasses. If I were ytou I would find a good feed with copper in it and slowly switch them by mixing it with the other till you are on a feed without molasses. I would also get a loose mineral and give to them. As said above it can be cattle or any type fo mineral except sheep mineral as she cant have copper.
Mineral blocks are hard on the teeth for goats but they do seem to like them but it takes a long time for them to get what they will need from the hard blocks so get some loose minerals. Also check into getting some copper boluses to bolus them with. Its 1 gram per 22 lbs of goats if you do bolus and it does work pretty fast also.
My girls and bcuks get bolused at least 2 times a years and have loose minerals and a white salt block when I cant get the loose salt for them. Good luck and do some checking at different stores for what you need.


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## helmstead (Jul 17, 2009)

What is UP with bad feedstore employee advice lately?  How do they confuse a variety of goat with sheep?  Oy!  The worst thing is that I've heard this one before...

Chaty said all I would've


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## currycomb (Jul 17, 2009)

was on the ADM feed site yesterday, and there has been some reports of copper toxicity in pigmy goats, so my thinking is, they need the copper, just not at the rate the larger goats do. so mix a feed with copper(any sweetfeed for horses ) and the non copper for sheep. any ideas on that gang :/


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## Thomas423 (Jul 17, 2009)

The feed is definately labled for Pygmy goats...no copper.

Unfortuantly we don't have a bag to take a pic of the label.

ADM is the brand of feed so I'll go check out their website and be back with more info.

Thanks all.   I really just want to do what is best for the girls.

Mixing feed will not work....my girls are so picky.   The last feed they were just picking out what they wanted and threw the rest on the floor.   Then they screamed because they were hungry.   
We're having problems getting them to eat hay also.   They want nothing to do with it but I know that they need it so we are only giving them a handful of feed at a time.....just enough to keep them from screaming too loud.


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## Thomas423 (Jul 17, 2009)

Ok....ADM did not help but they do warn that some pygmies are subject to copper

I searched the internet and here's what I found so far:

This article:  http://www.kinne.net/cu-tox.htm
Here's some quotes from the article:
"Dietary intake of copper and molybdenum, a copper-binding metal, are perhaps the most important. Both affect the absorption and excretion of each other. When excess amounts of molybdenum are present in the diet, copper deficiency is a possibility. When the diet is low in molybdenum, there is the potential for copper toxicity."
And
"All factors need to be considered when determining how much copper an individual animal can tolerate. In general, it is not recommended to exceed 20 ppm copper in the total diet of goats." If this level is drastically increased, copper accumulates in the liver until a stressful event or illness causes the copper to leave the liver and enter the blood stream. Chronic copper toxicity is like a bowl of water that has one drop of water at a time added to it - there is no sign of a flood until the last drop causes the water to spill over. In chronic copper poisoning the liver retains copper until it reaches its threshold and then dumps enough copper into the blood stream to cause toxic levels."

And from the National Pygmy Goat Assoc.:  http://www.npga-pygmy.com/resources/health/vitamins_minerals.asp
"Goats (especially kids) have a much lower tolerance for copper in the diet than either horses or cattle. Copper is commonly added to cattle and horse supplements in excess of what goats need, and this can lead to copper toxicity."

Finally:  http://goat-link.com/content/view/133/140/
"Calcium, cadmium, iron, and zinc inhibit absorption of copper. "

This quote here applies to us because our area is very high in iron.   The ground, the water and probably all the forage would be high in iron.   We do have a water conditioner but I figure it is still in the water to some degree.   So does "inhibit absorption" mean that the copper would stay in their livers??   Oh Boy.....I'm so confused :/

Thanks all for your opinions.   We are due for a vet visit soon so I will definately be talking to her about this but I want to hear from the "real" experts on this and the best way to make sure they have enough copper but not too much.


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## username taken (Jul 17, 2009)

> the best way to make sure they have enough copper but not too much


I'll say it again ... it is as simple as getting them minerals containing copper, in block or loose form. Goats are self-regulators - they will take what they need from the mineral, no more, no less. 

Keep feeding them the grain they like, get them some minerals, and let them do what they do best.


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## Chaty (Jul 18, 2009)

Yep you really dont have to change their feed if its working for you but get the loose minerals. Like Keren said they will only take what they need. They are smart critters.


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## lilhill (Jul 18, 2009)

Absolutely.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2009)

For the most part, I also believe the average goat will self-regulate on loose mineral and keep itself in pretty good shape.  

That said, I've got two goats right now -- a yearling doe and her dam -- which are both copper deficient to the point that their black hair is reddening and they've got really bad fishtails..  The dam was beginning to get inexplicably lame more and more often, and the yearling actually came down with dermatophilosis just a few weeks ago, due -- I suspect -- to a weak immune system..  They both seem to keep a higher parasite load than the others in the herd, also, even though they're wormed on the same schedule.

The interesting thing is that the dam won't consume loose mineral.  I have no idea why, but she just won't.  You can put it out brand new, straight from the bag, and she might sniff it....but then she just walks away.  The yearling isn't much better about it, either...she'll maybe take a swipe of fresh mineral, but backs away pretty quickly.  I think there's just something about those two that cause them to dislike loose mineral, so they ignore it whereas the rest of the herd will utilize it periodically and stay in pretty good shape.

BTW...I only recently discovered what the problem was with these two, so I ordered Copasure 12.5 from Jeffers as soon as I figured it out.  They came in just the other day, and we taped both goats for weight last night.  They'll each be getting measured boluses as soon as I can get the COWPs measured out and in capsules.


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