# Help needed ASAP



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Sheep went into labor sat. Water bag ruptured.... No presentation at all. Called vet. Had me give shot to go into labor. Every time I checked, she was not dilating. Vet did not want to do c-section. Gave more shots yesterday and told us to check for dilation and if she did, go in and try to pull lamb. If nothing by Sunday, cull her. Checked her a little while ago, and she is dilating. My question is... How far should I go to "find" the lamb without hurting the ewe and how hard can I push to get inside? These are hard questions and there may not be an easy answer... I would just like to save her if possible..... We are terribly upset and just want to do the right thing.


----------



## purplequeenvt (Feb 4, 2014)

Slowly work your hand inside. You may need to work the cervix a bit to get it to stretch it more. Go until you find a lamb. I can usually get up to my elbow. Try to find the two front feet and the nose. Two back feet are equally acceptable. Tips of toes pointing up will be front feet, toes point down are back feet. If you get front feet, you will need to make sure the head is there too. It's extremely hard to get the lamb out with its head turned back. If you are able to get the lamb out, make sure you go back in to check for another. 

Is the ewe currently actively in labor? Pushing? Are you sure she actually passed a water bag on Saturday? If she was able to deliver a water bag then she should have been at least partially dilated. 

I will warn you, at this point, the lamb is most likely dead. Why did the vet not want to do a c-section?

Make sure you scrub up well before going in and, if you are able to save the ewe, dose her up with antibiotics - especially if the lamb is dead!

Good luck and keep us posted!


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Thank you for your reply. The vet felt the cost of the c-section would outweigh the value of the ewe. We only have one large animal vet in our area and he said he would need $500.00 to do the procedure and she probably would not live anyway...... At 9am sat morning, I saw a long string of bloody "stuff" hanging out of her and it had a little bit of water/liquid in the bottom of it. She had been in a jug for about 12 hours as she had separated herself from the others an we were expecting bad weather. I have only worked with cattle before this last year.... It looked kind of like afterbirth, but I knew she had not had a lamb. She is 5 years old and had several successful births before we got her.... We ran into town expecting a lamb when we got home. We were gone about an hour. We got home and she was standing up eating hay. She never went into third stage labor that we saw. At 3 pm we checked her and her cervix was as small as my first finger. That was when we called the vet..... We gave oxytocin shot and she strained a little but nothing came... She has had a little bloody discharge but otherwise acts as if she is fine. I just don't know how to help her.... It's so frustrating.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

Something is very wrong here...is there another vet you can contact....or...other sheep people in your area to consult???


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

I am actively searching now. There are several "goat" folks, but not sheep people. We have has sheep a little less than a year..... Feeling so helpless.... Will a ewe ever "pass" something vaginally when they are not in labor yet? I don't want to put her down if she has not truly went into labor.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

Feel so badly for you and wish I had good advice...and by all means call experienced goat people...goats and sheep at birthing are not really different...where are you???  Anywhere close to me?  I'm in Northeast Mississippi.


----------



## purplequeenvt (Feb 4, 2014)

An experienced goat person should be able to help with sheep birthing problems.

My best guess is that the lamb is in a wacky position. Can you get the vet to come out and examine her?


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

X 2!!!!  an experienced goat person is good...a vet out...better!!!  Please keep us updated...for some reason I truly care about every sheep and lamb...just how I was drawn I guess.  Hoping for the best!!!!

If I had a vet saying just to cull her...I would have flames coming out of my ears...seriously!!!!


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

I am going to call him in the morning. I was thinking about calling a gentleman that lives fairly close who has goats and get his opinion. Thanks for your input. I really appreciate someone talking to me... She has always had twins and looks absolutely huge. I'm afraid there is 3 in there....


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

Please don't wait for morning...call the gentleman with goat experience !!!!  Not sure about your area, but here...all us livestock people are open and willing to calls for help at all hours of the day and night.


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

We are not happy about the culling idea. We name all our sheep and she is somewhat of a pet. She always follows me around and noses me for a treat.... She is the first one to greet me every morning.... This is really hard. I'm trying to look at it as something that must be faced when you farm, but it isn't always that easy.....


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

I think I will call someone tonight. I just need more information.... We live in SEMissouri and are currently getting snow and freezing rain. Hopefully can get someone out here tomorrow. Thanks everyone. I'll keep updating but am going to get off here and make some calls....


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Feb 4, 2014)

I hope you are able to get the help you need for your ewe. So sorry you have to go thru this


----------



## purplequeenvt (Feb 4, 2014)

You should really try to get someone out there tonight if at all possible. She could have lambs tangled up. It's odd that she seems to have started labor and got as far as a water bag and then stopped completely. 

Too bad I'm up in VT. I'm the go to person around town for lambing problems.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm also sorry you are not closer to me...in northeast MS or I'd be so happy to get over to you and try to help!!!!  You really do need someone tonight.  Please don't wait for morning or it may be too late.  Tangled lambs is my biggest fear here and I am lucky to have people to call for help day or night...really hoping you get some help from someone tonight...as soon as possible.  Sending prayers for your ewe, the lambs and you!!!!  This is a tough one!!!


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm just throwing this out there.... unlikely but maybe worth a thought...?

Are you absolutely 100% sure she didn't have a false pregnancy?  They will act pregnant and look pregnant, but "labor" stops when they  discharge the built up fluid.

Found this article that refers to goats, but it can happen in sheep too.

http://www.liv.ac.uk/farm/species/goats.htm

"The most commonly affected are adults who have kidded several times, and may have been subject to artificial light manipulation of the breeding season, particularly in large dairy enterprises. The aetiology of this condition is still not well understood, but essentially is a build-up of clear fluid within the uterus in the presence of a persistent corpus luteum (CL) which secretes progesterone, but without a conception/pregnancy. The doe acts as if pregnant, with enlargement of the abdomen, udder development, and often milk production if not already milking. The false pregnancy can last for a variable length of time depending upon the initiating cause, but typically may last ~21days (ie 1 oestrus cycle) if the doe has had no contact with a billy, or at least ~150days (ie 1 gestational period) if it has followed early embryonic death. Following destruction of the CL the uterine fluid is released, hence the term “cloudburst”, and the doe will then often continue to milk for a lactation period. There is a high recurrence rate with ~40 % recurring in the following oestrous cycles of the current breeding season, and a 50% chance of recurrence beyond the current breeding season. Thankfully the condition can be readily diagnosed using ultrasonography, and treated successfully with medical therapy by a veterinary surgeon."
Whatever it is - I hope your ewe recovers!


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

Thank you for that information Frustrated...I had never heard of this.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Feb 4, 2014)

I only bring it up because I had it happen to a goat once - many years ago.  If I had not been there, I would never have believed it.  I had waited and waited for this doe to kid.  She began a very half-hearted labor without much active pushing, but he did produce a bag, it ruptured and I swear GALLONS of fluid came out - but no baby anywhere and when I tried to go in and see what was going on - she was only the tiniest bit dilated.  It was the weirdest thing...


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 4, 2014)

Glad you posted that Frustrated...this forum is so good to learn from.  People's experience does not always comes in books and manuals....thank you again.


----------



## Support (Feb 4, 2014)

I'm so sorry you have to go through this traumatic experience. 

I hope that you and your sheep will get past through this.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Feb 5, 2014)

I really hope things turned out ok!


----------



## bcnewe2 (Feb 5, 2014)

Update?
There seems to be a lot of mal-presentations this year. It was so wet last year I wonder if coming out of the dry past if all the moisture didn't help our ewes.
You can pm me if you still need help, I live in MO (near st. Louis) but I do know sheep people all over MO. Maybe we can find someone to help you.
Hopefully something has happened last night.


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 5, 2014)

Well, talked to an experienced goat raiser last night. He also brought up the question of false pregenancy. Mainly because she only passed a water bag and never really went into any type of hard labor, just got up and started acting normal. She never developed a milk bag. He thought the vaginal bleeding may be from my "exploring". Even when I got my fingers through the cirvix, i felt nothing.... when I press on her sides, i do not feel anything either. I assumed she was with lamb because of her size.
She is up thismorning. Acting fine and eating. He suggested I give her penicillin in case she has any infection. He suggested I just leave her alone and watch. Yesterday and last night we got a half inch of sleet,  an inch of snow, and then almost an inch of ice on top of that. Vet won't make trip out here, and I can not get her there. So, I am just going to watch and pray for the best.We decided that until we could get her to the vet and checked or should she get sick, we are NOT going to put her down withoug knowing for sure what is going on. Any suggestions appreciated....


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Feb 5, 2014)

I absolutely agree - don't put her down!  If she's eating and acting ok, she probably IS ok.  If you can take her temp - it'll give you an idea of wether you're dealing with any infection.     I'm keeping my fingers crossed hoping it turns out well!


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 5, 2014)

Thank You - I appreciated everyone talking to me.....


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 5, 2014)

Here is a picture of her just before christmas..... She looks pregnant....


----------



## purplequeenvt (Feb 5, 2014)

I agree, don't put her down if she is acting ok and not in distress. If give antibiotics since you "went exploring". 

I've never had a sheep with a false pregnancy, but that sounds like a good explanation.


----------



## Southern by choice (Feb 5, 2014)

Been following this thread... only one suggestion... find a new vet.

Really hoping for the best too! And no... I wouldn't be putting her down either.


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 5, 2014)

Would like a new vet. He is the only "large animal" vet around. We were told of a new vet in the area but no one can recall his name and I cant find him online. Once the weather breaks, Im going to hunt him down....... hopefully he will take sheep and other large farm animals.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 5, 2014)

I'd check her temp too.  Hope she'll be fine and that you can find a good vet.  Here we are limited as vets do dogs and cats and the large animals only include horses and cattle..."we don't do sheep and goats" has been what both in the area have said.


----------



## Heather (Feb 5, 2014)

Would it be possible that this is a missed abortion?  We had a cow that went into labor and just simply couldnt get the calf out.  After finally getting a vet to agree to come out he did nothing but charge us an $800 bill for sleeving her and letting us know she might or might not expel the fetus.  Needless to say the cow never fully got the calf out and after pulling a leg and tail out of the poor cow she had to be put down.  We believe she was septic from the bacteria from the calf being inside and dead.  Could something like this have happened to your ewe?  BTW the vet gave us a shot to induce labor so she could pass the fetus but that did not work because her cervix simply wouldnt reopen.  I would hate for someone else to go through this experience(the cow was my 6 year olds cow)


----------



## HeatherL (Feb 6, 2014)

I can relate to your dilemma of only having one vet.  We only have 1 in our area and he has warned us that he doesn't know sheep very well.  It's about $150 for him just to show up so I call him first.  If he doesn't think the animal is going to make it, he says so.  I do appreciate that honesty as money is tight especially in the animal department.  However, it would be nice to have a vet to learn from.  Don't get discouraged.  I would find goat/sheep people in your area.  You could call your county extension office and find out if they have any 4h families in your area.  They can pass your info to them and they can be a wealth of knowledge.


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 6, 2014)

Well, it's day day six. No fever, acting normal, eating well. Very minimal discharge and what there is does not smell nasty or anything. I am hoping these are all good signs. I am giving her penicillin in case I introduced bacteria when I examined her. I guess there is nothing to do now but wait.....


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Feb 6, 2014)

If it's been six days - it's almost guaranteed that she's not going to die from THIS!  If a birth goes bad and nothing is done- a doe or ewe will probably go septic and die within about three or four days.  Soooo, I'd say she's doing very well!


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 6, 2014)

Sounds encouraging...hoping all is well!


----------



## Hens and Roos (Feb 6, 2014)

Glad to hear she is doing well


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks Everyone - it is encouraging to hear that you think she will make it through this!! It is day 7 and discharge has stopped, no swelling, belly does not look as large as it did, ears up, eyes clear and eating well - back to looking in my pocket for a treat. I dont know what is going on with her, but I will just keep praying she will be ok.....


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Feb 7, 2014)

Glad she seems to be doing okay!  Thanks for updating us!


----------



## autumnprairie (Feb 8, 2014)

Thank you for posting, it helps to see what goes on in other places and what to look for and what was done. I am glad she is doing well


----------



## lungewhipqueen (Feb 8, 2014)

Totally sounds like a false pregnancy to me. I have goats and luckily haven't dealt with this yet, but my sister had a goat who did it to her twice. She went the full 150 days and blew up like a balloon. Grew a huge udder, moaned and groaned while laying down at night, looked just like a pregnant girl ought to. Then passed nothing but fluid like you described. 

I agree with the others too that you should be looking for a new vet! I can totally understand a vet giving you the real deal on his expectations for recovery, cost and his skill or lack thereof. But to flat refuse to work on the animal because HE doesn't think it's smart money would absolutely piss me off. It's not his animal to make that decision. Only YOU can decide what she's worth to you and how much you're willing to spend on her.

I'm really happy to hear that you didn't take his advice to just cull her. You did the right thing by giving her a chance. Even if she did have an infection or retained a fetus... it doesn't mean she's absolutely gonna die. People would be amazed what they can come back from if you just help them along.


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 9, 2014)

Well, Mrs. Kay is still doing fine. No fever, no discharge, no foul smells, ears up, eyes clear...... I needed the jug I had her in so I let her back out with the herd. She was so happy she RAN to greet everyone. Just went out and checked on her. She looks great. Nudging my pockets looking for a snack. I did not cut back on her food, but she looks much "slimmer" than she did a week ago when this drama all began. I'm glad I took everyone's advice over the vet and did not cull her. I'm hoping she continues to do well. After talking to everyone I'm hoping it was just a false pregnancy. Thanks for all the support and advice. I'll keep updating and try to get a new picture of her with the slimmer body. It's amazing how different her body shape is now.....


----------



## Hens and Roos (Feb 9, 2014)

Glad to hear she is feeling better and  that she continues to do well!


----------



## hilarie (Feb 10, 2014)

Cull the vet.  Period.  
Ditto on calling the goat people.  I'd help anyone I could, with any animal I could.


----------



## RedBrush Farm (Feb 11, 2014)

Tuesday Feb.11 - Still doing fine. Staying with the herd. Eating/drinking etc. and still no discharge or odors. I plan on letting time tell..... Still watching her close, but worring less every day Thanks again everyone.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 12, 2014)

Glad she is doing better!!!!


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Feb 12, 2014)




----------

