# Another worming q



## Jupiter (Sep 25, 2010)

I had a fecal sample checked by the vet,  one of my new girls had a moderate worm load, he said give ivermectin a try, soo...

She is 100lbs according to the goat weight tape, and I gave her 4 ml of 1% injectable ivermecting orally. Now she's got loose stools, not really scours, but it looks like dog poop. Would that be related to the ivermectin? Or am I looking for something else as the cause?

He actually said he'd worm both goats, but I chose to only worm the one with the problem, and figured I'd ask here before worming the other one too. It doesn't make sense to me to worm a goat that dosn't need it, but maybe there's some other reason????:/


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## Roll farms (Sep 26, 2010)

Dewormers can cause loose stools.  Giving probiotics could help clear that up if you're concerned, but in a few days it should clear up on it's own.

I agree, don't deworm the other goat "just because".  
Are you familiar w/ eyelid checking (FAMACHA), pulling the bottom lid down to see what color they are?  

Check the 'wormy' goat's eyelids vs. the other goat...see if you can tell a difference.  Theoretically, the lids should be a bit (or a lot) paler on the wormy one....depending on how wormy she was.

Did he say what kind of worms she had?

I would either have another fecal ran, or check her eyelids again in 2-3 weeks if you're comfortable w/ evaluating that way....and deworm again as needed.


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## Jupiter (Sep 26, 2010)

It went from dog poop looking to really really runny and stinky, so I'll give her probios today. Any recommended amount? Her milk production went to nothing too, but if she's not feeling well, that's shouldn't have been a surprise. 

Wow am I glad this forum is here. I'm a city girl and I've read a bunch of information from all over, but I am still not prepared for this!


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## Jupiter (Sep 28, 2010)

Her feces are NOT firming up at all. This has to be what scours is...totally runny and nasty. I've given her probios and I know you said a few days, but this is day 3.....when do I worry?


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## Roll farms (Sep 28, 2010)

I usually keep kaolin on hand to help firm them back up if one scours when on antibiotics...I don't know that I've ever had one scour for 3 days but I'd definitely be trying to firm them up w/ kaolin or pepto 
(I've never used pepto on a goat so can't tell you the dosage, sorry).

Did you give the Probios on the first day only or all 3 days?

I'd also think about giving her some electrolytes in her water, and possibly a B shot to help her feel better.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 28, 2010)

In a pinch electrolyte mix

1 Quart Water
2 tablespoons Corn Syrup
 teaspoon Salt
 teaspoon Baking Soda

I always add a little molasses as well..a spoonful of a sugar helps the medicine goes down...

Good luck....

ps Ive never used pepto in goats either...unsure about that..


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## Jupiter (Sep 28, 2010)

What's the dosage for kaopectate? Just got some.....vanilla flavored since they don't have plain....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

I've been looking at this trying to figure out what good ol' Occam would do...  Does it make more sense that a runny, *smelly*, 3-day scour would be brought on by 4ml of ivermectin by mouth, or does it make more sense that the deworming and scouring aren't even related and that this could simply be a bacterial infection, a coccidial bloom (she's probably about 9mo's old, no?...plus she's been shipped, stressed by worms, etc) or something like that.

The goal, of course, is to choose the one that requires the least number of guesses...frankly, I find the number of guesses to be about equal either way.  It wouldn't have seemed that way on day-1 of the scour, but after several days...well, now you have to start making guesses about *why* a little ivermectin would have had this profound of an effect, why it hadn't cleared up by now, why it's foul in odor, etc..  

Just the fact that it's foul in odor makes me suspect bacterial involvement, frankly..  And though she's maybe a little old for it, the fact that she's still relatively young and has been stressed recently is making the words "it's not coccidia" stick in my throat...I wouldn't rule it out just yet.

Having said that, the best I can figure would be to get this one on SMZ-TMP.  The sulfamethoxazole (SMZ) part will take care of coccidia, if that's the problem, and the trimethoprim (TMP) -- though not ideal for treating GI infections in _ruminants_ -- should at least help combat a bacterial problem if there is one.

That's me, though..


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## Jupiter (Sep 28, 2010)

Actually she's about 2 years old, has been checked for coccidia at the same time as worms, and vet said cocci no problem, but moderate worms. She did ride in our van for 5 hours but that was Sept 4th and she's been fine and showing no signs of illness before this.

She's had zero chemicals so far in her life until I got her and I'm wondering if the wormer just played total hell with her system along with a cd/t shot that she'd never had before......

I gave her the human dosage for kao a few minutes ago.

At night she got the wormer (totally healthy) and by the next morning, loose stools, from then on scours and here we are 

Do you still think it's bacterial? I'm going to go check on her again....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

Wow...she's really light to be a 2yo.

Okay, well, it's probably not coccidia then..  That leaves bacterial, which kinda makes more sense anyway just because of the foul odor.

Tell us more about the scour, though...like, what color is it?  Any blood or mucous or tissue shreds with it, or anything like that?  And when you say it's really smelly...is it almost like the "parvo" smell, or..?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

Just read that she's never had any chemicals, ever...which means she just got treated for *most* but not *all* the worms you may be dealing with here.

One that causes diarrhea and comes to mind right away are tapeworms..  Ivermectin won't get a tapeworm -- you'd need to give either a benzamidazole class "white" dewormer (Safe-Guard, Valbazen, Panacur, etc) or something called praziquantel for that.

Not saying that's what it is, necessarily...I just hadn't thought about that until right this second..

Is she running a fever?  Is she acting as though she's in pain or depressed...off her feed, laying around, grinding teeth, etc?


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## Jupiter (Sep 28, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Tell us more about the scour, though...like, what color is it?  Any blood or mucous or tissue shreds with it, or anything like that?  And when you say it's really smelly...is it almost like the "parvo" smell, or..?


I don't actually know what Parvo smells like thank god, never dealt with it, but it's a really strong "earthy" kind of smell if that makes sense. Not acidic/sharp smelling??? Hard to describe :/ It's a light brown color, no tissue/mucous, just uniform liquid brown. Not quite like water, but it might be getting thicker as it was like a hose was on when she went last night, but today it's dribbling out instead of shooting out. No blood.

Just got back from cleaning down the walls of her stall actually. Yuck. But she did drink and she is nibbling baking soda as well as occasionally munching hay. She was getting grain and boss before  this, but I cut back to just hay after this started as I think the other stuff was too rich. Should I have kept giving her grain? 

I have given her the kaopectate....30ml actually, the human dose for kids over 12. Just one dose though, and the bottle says I can do it every 1/2 hour for adults, but I don't know with this...

Plus if it IS a bacterial bloom, she might need to get it out of her system?


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## Jupiter (Sep 28, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Just read that she's never had any chemicals, ever...which means she just got treated for *most* but not *all* the worms you may be dealing with here.
> 
> One that causes diarrhea and comes to mind right away are tapeworms..  Ivermectin won't get a tapeworm -- you'd need to give either a benzamidazole class "white" dewormer (Safe-Guard, Valbazen, Panacur, etc) or something called praziquantel for that.
> 
> ...


I've seen no tapeworm segments, and the vet didn't say anything about tapes, jsut that ivermectin would take care of it, no grinding teeth or acting different. I will take her temp, but she seems fine otherwise, lovey but not clingy and not off in a corner or lots of laying down. I think maybe you are right and the bacteria took over after the wormer.....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

I dunno...very thin, light brown, and foul sounds bacterial, but I'd also expect her to be acting off and perhaps running a fever.  Could just be really, really mild I guess..

But it doesn't sound dietary either...and she's off grain, so it's probably not acidosis..  And she doesn't even fit the age profile for coccidiosis..  

I'd probably try some scour-halt.  I'm prone to "try" things, though..  I know lots of people wag their fingers and to tsk tsk tsk at that, but I've spent enough time around vets to know that's exactly what they do..  Couldn't count the number of times I've had a vet say something like "Well, we could try ....." and just throw something out there.

Actually, human doctors do the same thing..  

So, ya...I'd try some Scour-Halt, personally.  I'd probably give her about 5ml every 12hrs or until the scouring stops -- but I wouldn't give more than 4 doses in 2 days.  If 4 doses over 2 days doesn't put a dent in it, I'd be looking for another cause.

That's me, though.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 28, 2010)

I had a male that showed a low cocci count but still had loose stool. While it normally wouldn't have been considered a problem, since he did still have loose stool, I did treat him for coccidia. The stool went back to pellets. So even though a "normal range" count of coccidia was present and normally wouldn't be treated, he needed it.  Haven't had a problem since.  

So don't count a coccidia problem out.


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## Jupiter (Sep 28, 2010)

Thanks all, she went downhill fast and I made a run to the vet. Leaning against the wall and head weaving side to side, kind of going to sleep standing up. No fever though.

She's on re-sorb and albon now......she started to fight me on her second round of re-sorb so that's good.

The kaopectate didn't help that I could tell, but maybe I didn't dose enough or keep administering it, so not sure about that.

What are the odds though, that I get electrolytes into her lungs instead of into her belly where it belongs? That's gotta be bad too.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 29, 2010)

Jupiter said:
			
		

> What are the odds though, that I get electrolytes into her lungs instead of into her belly where it belongs? That's gotta be bad too.


That is never good....thats why I always try to give them an eletrolyte mix with molassess in it.  Mine guys drink it like its a snack...no matter how yuckie they feel....I always try to get them to drink it 1st.  Cuz Im always afraid of getting a drench in thier lungs...but if you extend thier neck properly they should be fine...


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## cmjust0 (Sep 29, 2010)

Jupiter said:
			
		

> Thanks all, she went downhill fast and I made a run to the vet. Leaning against the wall and head weaving side to side, kind of going to sleep standing up. No fever though.
> 
> She's on re-sorb and albon now......she started to fight me on her second round of re-sorb so that's good.


ReSorb is good, and it's good that she's fighting you.  

I thought her coccidia counts had already checked and ruled OK, though?  Albon is just name-brand dimethox, which is a coccidia treatment..  If she's 2 years old and has already been checked for coccidiosis...I guess I don't really get that.  Did the vet re-check a fecal and find more oocysts or something?



If she doesn't start turning around pretty quickly on the Albon, you might consider asking your vet about adding some kind of better antibiotic just in case it's a bacterial problem.  You might even mention the possibility of using SMZ-TMP, though they may have a problem with that....not really supposed to be used in food animals, if I recall correctly.



> What are the odds though, that I get electrolytes into her lungs instead of into her belly where it belongs? That's gotta be bad too.


If you haven't already, run to TSC (or any farm store, really) and grab a real drench syringe..  They're much safer to use than drenching from a big 50ml catheter syringe or something like that, which is what a vet usually hands you.

With a drench syringe, what you'd want to do is get straddle of her neck, facing the same direction she's facing, and insert the nozzle at the corner of her mouth.  The syringe should be more or less at a right angle to her cheek..  The nozzle has a bend in it, so you'd want to point the tip toward the back of her throat.  With everything aligned that way, the tip of the nozzle should be resting on the back of her tongue.  Make sure to keep her head as level as you can, also -- _avoid the urge to tip her head back!_ -- and then push the plunger slowly.

When she feels the liquid hitting the back of her tongue, she'll swallow.  It's more or less an involuntary reaction at that point.


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## Jupiter (Sep 29, 2010)

Her stools are firming up, and she's better, but she's still not quite steady enough on her feet. Definite improvement, but not back to normal yet.

Vet said he saw one cocci when he did the original stool sample, that it wasn't enough to worry about, but when this happened, he though it wouldn't hurt to treat. If she doesn't continue to improve on the albon (why are they in pill form?!), I'll get the stuff you suggested, but I know I'll have to write it down or I'll never remember those names. 

No I didn't have a drenching gun, just he 60 ml huge syringe, but she's more interested in drinking it now instead of spitting it out, so I'm not as worried about her aspirating. I'll get the drench gun on my to buy list though. 

Thanks you guys, you all deserve flowers --Big ones.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 29, 2010)

Albon does come in liquid form. That is what I get. I guess it depends on the vet. My vet carries the liquid.

Also, eggs aren't shed in every fecal. So one fecal could have no eggs and another one be loaded with eggs. One clean fecal doesn't guarantee anything.

Great that she is improving, I hope she continues for you.


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