# Baby goat, weak, difficulty walking *FRIDAY UPDATE*



## Our7Wonders (Jun 28, 2011)

Without all the details - I'll save that for another thread - we have done a complete breed change overnight in my little mini herd.

I have the little 4 week old Ob doe we got almost two weeks ago- who, by the way, is doing great after her cocci treatment and is eating like a champ now!  But have also picked up another Ob doeling, an Ob buckling, and an Ob boy that will be wethered to keep the buckling company - that little guy is the cutest thing ever!

The two boys are doing well - but the new doeling isn't.  She's 4 weeks old.  Yesterday morning she didn't want much of her bottle.  By afternoon she seemed weak in the legs and her little cry has turned high pitched.  I brought her into the house where I can keep a close eye on her.  Because the three were kept together I don't know if she's pooping or not - there's pellets in the straw - but I have no way to know if they are hers or not.  To be sure she's not getting backed up I gave her Milk-of-Magnesia (5cc) and a warm soapy enema.  She was started on DiMethox yesterday as well.  I haven't seen her poop besides the enema so I haven't been able to obtain droppings for a fecal test to take to the vet.  I figured the soapy ones I got her to pass were likely not good to use - but maybe that would work?  (If so let me know and I'll gather some up when I do round two of the enema).  I took her temp - 103.5*.  She willingly took 1 cup of electrolytes last night and another 1 cup today.  She's nibbling (ever so little) on bits of hay.  I gave her some baking soda last night and am going to give her another dose of it this a.m.  I have not started milk again yet.  When she had milk it was goat milk, although nubian now rather than ob - so no replacers or cow milk changes that would cause issues.

She was not given BoSe, nor was her dam so I called the only vet we have in the valley.  He'll give me bo-se for her and the others but wants to wait a few days for her to get over whatever is going on with her.  the only reason I thought of Bo-Se was because of how weak her legs seem to be.  He suggested e-coli as a possibility - but she's not scouring at all.  I'm willing to start anitbiotics if my experts here feel it's necessary.  

Oh, I gave her probios as well.  I've got Vitamin B Complex that I'm going to subQ her with and I'm giving another dose of baking soda.

So I'm throwing things at her, hoping something will stick.  The vet said "keep me posted and good luck" which wasn't helpful really, at all.  I'll obviously be going this alone.

Any and all advice would be much appreciated.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 28, 2011)

I think I disagree with the vet and would get BoSe into her. Tell him she is doing much better if he won't give it to you otherwise. Really makes me appreciate my vets who will sell me bottles of stuff I need without a problem.

The soapy stool won't work for a fecal test.


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## Roll farms (Jun 28, 2011)

The only thing I would add to what you're doing would be to treat for e coli / do the BoSe.

A friend of mine lost a kid last year to e coli, she didn't treat for that b/c she didn't think it was, but the vet who did a post on her said it was, in fact, e coli.
Not saying it IS e coli, but just to cover the bases, I'd be tempted to treat for it.
The high temp would prompt me to treat w/ some form of an antibiotic if the dimethox doesn't seem to be helping by tonight.

I wish you were closer, I have BoSe...I wish your vet would just sell you a bottle.

I sure hope you get her straightened out....good luck!


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 28, 2011)

Do I treat Ecoli with Pen G?  I have that on hand as well as another antibiotic - shoot I can't remember the name of it now - I'll go look.


Bio-Mycin.  

My cutie-pa-tutie little guy has yellow scours now.  Ugh.  He isn't skipping a beat though.  He's only 10 days old and is eating, playing, etc - all normal.  Yellow scours - is that usually dietary?  Could it be the change from the ob milk to nub milk?  Should I treat them ALL for possible E-coli - since they've all been together?  Oh, what I wouldn't give for a good goat vet!  Those of you that have them, thank them!


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## Roll farms (Jun 28, 2011)

I would start w/ probios on the little fellow, if it *is* dietary, it should fix it.

I know some folks will tell you probiotics in pre-ruminating kids are pointless BUT...we don't have rumens and probiotics help us...and cats...and dogs.  Good bugs in the belly are a good thing, IMHO.  I've always given them to kids w/ the softies and it helps.

Are you giving them milk from your goats, and they're used to milk from other goats?  I believe you don't pastuerize?  
Could be they've picked up something that, being from another herd / farm, they haven't built up immunity to....whereas your kids were born / raised there / got immunity from mom....if that makes sense.

That's purely a guess....maybe without merit, but that's all I've got for you.  

I treat any scouring kid w/ Neomycin sulfate (TSC carries it) or scour halt (I think that's spectomycin (sp?)
It will kill e coli if that is the problem.  It hasn't failed me yet...

My general rule of thumb is - under 3 wks, treat for ecoli, over 3 wks, treat for cocci.  I know there are exceptions, but that's how I do it*.  
Along w/ any treatment, they get supportive care - probiotics, B vitamin, and red cell if I feel they 'need' it.   
If I saw bloat, I'd also give baking soda.  
(I've never had a kid bloat, and only one case of constipation in a days-old kid.)

*If after 1 day of treatment for cocci, an older kid didn't clear up / get better, I would give them the scour halt or neomycin sulfate along w/ the DiMethox.  
I had to do that w/ one this year, Moonie..the freaky looking red / white Boer kid...she came from a farm in KY and has always been a bit 'off' in her tummy issues.

I honestly only ever use Pen G for wounds and uterine issues.  Rarely use tetracycline..I think that's what Biomycin is..?  I keep it here, it expires, I buy more, it expires....  I really rarely use the injectable antibiotics at all unless someone's hurt or really sick.  Minor sniffles / etc. are 'fought off' w/ much success.
Kids would be the exception but (I sure hope I'm not jinxing myself) our kids are usually really healthy, so I haven't needed to use anything but the tummy antibiotics for them.  
If an adult is really sick - I use Nuflor....but I've never needed it for a young kid, and I'm betting I've only used it 3 times in the last 5yrs, even in a herd this size (35 or so).


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 28, 2011)

If you are feeding raw goat milk straight from the goat without ever refrigerating it, your goats shouldn't have a problem with it.  You have stated the problem in so many words, your kid is probably constipated.  Which generally will kill a kid faster than scours.  Once you refrigerate goat milk it changes the way the kids are able to digest the fat and they quite often get constipated.  We normally put 3 ml of vegetable oil in the bottle and don't have the constipation issues with bottle kids.  We raised a little more than 60 bottle babies since January and if you don't see something coming out after putting something in you are going to have a problem.


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 28, 2011)

Thanks Roll - I'm off to the feed store to look for the scour halt - we've got three feed stores, someones bound to carry it.  

Constipation is definately something I've considered - hence the Milk of Magnesia and the enema.  My other little girl (from the same farm) seemed a little backed up at first too - she got enemas and MOM twice daily until she adjusted.  Between that and cocci treatment she's all go-go-goatie now.  I'm hoping to get this little girl over the hump quickly - seems more than just constipation as she's still ill despite the enemas to get things moving.  I'll continue to give those while I'm giving the other treatments.


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 28, 2011)

Ok, so a few more details.  Her steps are very tiny and guarded now.  Once up she has a difficult time getting back down - definately leg issues.  With her last enema she passed some pellets but attatched to one was a white tissue looking mass.  Tapeworm?  Piece of intestine?  There was a little bit of blood passed in the soapy water.  Both cocci and E-Coli could cause that right?  I'm treating for both.  But the leg issue?

Just for added measure - figured at this point it couldn't hurt - to help soothe her intestinal tract I gave her slippery elm bark, vitamin C and aloe vera juice.  If nothing else it can help nutritionally and certainly won't hurt anything.  She's drinking willingly - and still trying to munch on hay a little.  Ugh.  Still haven't made it to the feed store for the scour-halt antibiotic - will get out as soon as I can.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm wondering if the white is undigested milk. I would probably consider getting C&D Antitoxin into her.


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 29, 2011)

Update:

She reached a point yesterday that I really was certain she wasn't going to make it.  Started the scour halt - well actually, it's called specto-gaurd - but looked up the ingredients and they seem to be the same.   She and the other little buckling got a dose yesterday and one this a.m.  

This a.m. she was calling for me with a much heartier noise - that was a good sign in and of itself.  She's pooping and peeing on her own - without the enema so I'll not give another unless she shows signs of constipation.  She's still in my living room in a large dog kennel/carrier.  My house smells like a barn.  I opened the kennel today and she walked right out.  Seemed almost normal - though slower.  Took her outside for a little walk in the sun.  She even bounced a couple times.  However, her back legs are very stiff - and she got slower and more stiff the longer we were out.  She went potty a couple times, but can't squat - those back legs just aren't bending well for her.  

I dosed her pretty heavily with baking soda yesterday - and she doesn't really seem floppy at all.  I'm not sure if it was right or wrong, but she was doing so well with drinking water and electrolytes out of a bowl that I let her sip a little milk late last night.  She drank it all willingly - was only about 4 oucnes.  She would have drank more but I was just a little nervous about giving it to her if there was any chance milk was our problem to begin with.  When she walked out of the kennel today I picked her up and rocked her just a bit to make sure she didn't seem sloshy - she wasn't so she had another bowl of milk - this time about 6 ounces.  She seemed happy to have it.  Her poo is rather soft - pudding-y today - but then again she's on quite a few meds right now, I expect that it will effect her poo for a while.

Does anyone know what SMZ-TMP is?  Is it Rx only?  It was another possible recommendation given to me but  I can't find it.  And I can't get the C&D antitoxin - I've called every feed store around looking for it.  I can order it - it'll take some time since I'm on the west coast.  If anyone feels it's really our problem then I'm willing to pay the extra to rush ship it - as of yesterday I had prepared myself for her to be gone by the end of the day, so ordering didn't seem like it would be of any help to us.
I'm also considering the possibility of polio - but I've found contradictory info on that.  One or two articles that I read said that it doesn't occur in goats under two months old - something to do with the rumen not being mature enough yet.  Anyone know?  I can try to talk the reluctant vet into thiamine if it's thought it might help - though if he wasn't upping any BoSe for me he's not likely to up thiamine.  I'm going to be giving her more B complex today.  Because they just pee out the extra can I give her quite a bit - like say, 2cc two or three times today?  Or would that likely just be wasting and of no benefit? 

So stiff back legs - perhaps the front too, somewhat - but definately the back - what can that be indicative of?  Would selenium issues (WMD) cause very stiff legs or is that just very weak legs?


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## jodief100 (Jun 29, 2011)

It sounds as if she is doing better.  I would continue with what you are doing and only add some Bo-Se if you can get it.  If not you can order the selinium paste.  It doesn't work as well but it is better than nothing.   

If milk doesn't seem to be making her worse, keep giving it to her, she can't go too long without it. Just be careful not too much or too often.


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## freemotion (Jun 29, 2011)

Didn't I read somewhere that the youngsters need the milk to come from a bottle so it will end up in the correct stomach compartment?  And don't give water from a bottle for the same reason?  Head position when swallowing determines where stuff goes?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jun 29, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Didn't I read somewhere that the youngsters need the milk to come from a bottle so it will end up in the correct stomach compartment?  And don't give water from a bottle for the same reason?  Head position when swallowing determines where stuff goes?


Head position makes a differance for sure!!


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 29, 2011)

jodie:  I didn't even think about the paste.  I had to use that with my does because I couldn't get it from the vet this winter.  I know it's not as effective, but may be worth trying.  It's gotta be better than nothing.  



			
				freemotion said:
			
		

> Didn't I read somewhere that the youngsters need the milk to come from a bottle so it will end up in the correct stomach compartment?  And don't give water from a bottle for the same reason?  Head position when swallowing determines where stuff goes?


I read the same thing - all the water and the electrolytes have come from a bowl.  They sip water from a bucket so I figured it was fine for her to get it from a bowl - I hold it up to shoulder height for her so she's not getting it from ground level.  I was worried about milk from a bowl instead of a bottle but from the most of the advice I've read on here if you can't get them to take it from a bottle you can offer it in a bowl - she might take it from a bottle now, she was refusing it the day she came down ill and I didn't even try yesterday because she was so sick.


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 29, 2011)

Well, just googled "baby goat, stiff back legs" and came up with this from the first website I checked (Jack Mauldin's site):

White Muscle Disease:

Stiffness, weakness and trembling. *Back legs become stiff and unable to use*. Can result in death.


So, to answer my own question and for any other newbies like myself, it does NOT just mean weak legs - stiffness is very much a symptom.


I just called the vet and told him she had improved (which really, from yesterday, she has) and that I wanted to cover all my bases and unless he was opposed to it I'd be down in an hour to pick up 4 Bo-Se shots for all the new little ones.  He said he'd have them ready!

***Please, please, please let this be what she needs***


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh i so hope BO-SE will be what helps ...  Seems you have done just about all you can do... Does the Breeder have any clues or ideas that can help?


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 29, 2011)

Ok.  Hoping the BoSe will work.

I've read on here and a couple articles on line that entero can set in fast once a baby goat has been down for any time at all.  None of the feed stores have the antitoxen, neither does the vet - and he's the ONLY large animal vet around so no chance of getting it from another nearby vet.

It's out of stock at Hoegger's, Valley Vet,  Jeffers and PBS Animal Supply.  What is the DEAL?  Anyone got a lead on where else I might be able to find it?  

Dang, this has been on my list of things to order to keep on hand *just in case*.  Murphey AND his law have moved in and taken up permanant residence at my place.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 29, 2011)

I didn't see if you got an answer to your SMZ-TMP question: it's a sulfa/antibiotic and is Rx only.  It would be my go to if I suspected something bacterial and didn't get an immediate response from the Neomycin.  We almost lost a yearling buck to bacterial scours at the beginning of the year and SMZ saved his life.  At the time my goat vet shared his opinion that neomycin's effectiveness is limited to strictly e coli (which our buck didn't have.)  He responded to SMZ immediately and within 12 hours I saw a dramatic turnaround.  By that point I almost didn't expect he WOULD recover.

But with my buck using the word "scour" is an understatement... Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see where you said your doe was scouring.  What made the vet suspect a bacterial issue?


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 29, 2011)

Doeling wasn't scouring - her little herd mates were.  The little guy (10 days/10 pounds) has had it the worst.  Yellow, slimey, VERY liquidy.  The other boy had it as well, but only a little.  I think it's turning the corner on both of them.  They had specto-guard last night and again this am - I've had to wash his bottom he was SO messy - and the flies were having a hay day with him.  His last poo was still messy - but had some more texture to it than any of them have had for the last 24 hours.  I hope he's on the mend.  

I dosed the doeling too, simply because I'm in the unknown with her.  Roll had experience seeing e-coli in a baby who eventually died from it (and confirmed via necropsy) and had no scours at all.  Since the boys were scouring I wanted to make sure to cover the bases with her.  She does *seem* better in many ways now that she's had a couple cocci treatments and a couple scour treatments - along with a WHOLE LOT of supportive care (I'm exhausted - I don't know how you guys raise dozens of babies!).  I don't know what has been the most effective, but I'm sticking with the same routine for now because there has been improvement.  I just need to get her using her legs properly and I don't know if I'm on the right track for that or not.  I may be missing the boat entirely on something but I've done all that I can do for now I guess - short of C&D antitoxin - but that can't be found or ordered from ANYWHERE right now.


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## Roll farms (Jun 29, 2011)

From what I've read, and I could be wrong...but, if she had entero, she'd be gone by now.  That is one thing that, to my knowledge, I've not seen / dealt with.

I've never had the antitoxin on hand (Tetanus antitoxin, yes...but since the last bottle of that outdated, I haven't bought more).  
I don't really plan on starting now.  Never needed it yet.  Maybe we've just been extremely lucky, but in your kid's case, I think some thiamine and BoSe are what she needs much more than the antitoxin.

B vitamin and BoSe are things I would *not* be w/ out.  I guess since our goats are vaccinated 2x a year w/ CDT, I just don't fret about antitoxins.  

I would think if she's deficient enough to have WMD symptoms, she will show improvement w/ one shot, but I'd be getting another shot for her (and give it in 3-7 days, depending on how well / quickly she improves) *or* start giving her the paste daily for several days (since it's proven to not work as fast or effectively, I'd be pretty aggressive w/ it short term until she's 'normal'...)

Also, I've given kids up to 6 cc of B vitamin 3x a day and they've been fine.  If you're trying to up her thiamine, you can give more than 2cc 3x a day...she will just pee out the extra.


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## Cooperkeeper (Jun 30, 2011)

I was having trouble finding the C&D and toxin as well. Called every feed store around and they said they didn't have.  Stopped in to see for myself and the shelf label in the fridge said Clostridium Perfingens...Bottle says antitoxin.  Don't think the employees knew what to look for.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 1, 2011)

*UPDATE*

Chloe is still with us and seems to be doing better.  Yesterday she was moved back with her little herdsmates.  Thankfully, though we thought we might lose it for a while, my living room has made a full recovery and no longer smells like a barn.  Chloe's legs are still not quite right - but otherwise seems to have no other symptoms remaining.  We did get BoSe and gave her the full 1cc dose.  I'm not sure if it helped but knowing that she was from a defficient area and we are also defficient - it's likely something she needed.  She can climb our big railroad tie steps and manages our hillside area to nibble grass and weeds but you can tell her steps are more reserved that the others are.  And she's not fully squatting to pee like our other doeling is.  Hopefully she'll continue to improve with time.

She's back to guzzling her bottle with a passion.  She'd take more but I'm being cautious (probobly overly) and slowly increasing each bottle an ounce at a time.  She's up to 10 ounces now, three times daily.  Ideally I'd like to get her to two larger bottles a day but I'm not wanting to make any more changes to her system - she's had so many already.

Today is her last dimethox/safeguard dose and she's still getting spectoguard - I'll likely continue for another two days to make sure she gets a full five days.

The only thing she didn't get that may be helpful for her is the antitoxin - but it's not available anywhere so it's just not going to happen.  I'm not concerned about entero being what brought her down - I worry more about it setting in as a secondary.  I was reading that it's not uncommon to have it happen after they've gone down.  Apparently a goat goes down, is treated and makes what seems to be a full recovery.  Then up to a week or so later the goat goes down a second time - and dies painfully shortly thereafter - often times unknown to the owner that it wasn't the first issue that was the problem, but entero that had set in during or shortly after the first issue.  I don't want to see that happen to her and since I don't have the antitoxin to fall back on I'm experimenting on her.

Pat Colby in "Natural Goat Care" claims that slippery elm bark, garlic, vitamin C and dolomite have been more successful for her than the antitoxin.  She says she uses it every couple hours for treatment.  I have all these items on hand anyway, so I figured if nothing else they are likely going to be healing to her little body.  Since I'm not actually treating a known case I'm just giving her one large dose of it each day.  I'm mixing it with aloe vera juice rather than water because aloe is known to be soothing/healing to the gut.  Once all mixed up it's about a half cup.  It takes several of my 30cc syringes to get it all in her - but she doesn't fight it too much.  I'm hoping that if it can treat it at high doses, perhaps it can prevent it at lower ones - and again it's all beneficial foods so it won't actually harm anything.

So at this point I'm actually hopeful she's going to be alright - never did I give up hope, I just wasn't allowing myself fasle hope.  She seems bright eyed and bushy tailed now, just the leg issue that still has me stumped.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 1, 2011)

Glad to hear she is doing better.


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## Roll farms (Jul 1, 2011)




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## Mossy Stone Farm (Jul 1, 2011)

I am so glad to hear about some improvement... your doing a great job..

Has the breeder been in contact,can she offer some advice, i was going over to look at some babies but i may change my mind now :/


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't think hers was a health issue that was present there - or if it was it was dormant while they were there.  I think the stress of the move, changing milks, travelling, etc. etc. set her up to have issues.    With the exception of the littlest guy, they are all prefect age for cocci - and with over 100 goats there's just no way to keep cocci completely gone.  She starts prevention measures at 4 weeks.  Knowing what I know now, I think that's about a week over when it needs to be, but it has been working for her.  I didn't see any signs of scours on the babies (or the does) and I was looking for that while I was there.  

Really, I couldn't keep goats like she does - it would be just way too many to try to take the proper care of - but I'm not running a dairy.  I think when she has the proper help it's likely much better.  She was getting more help brought in when I last talked to her.  Really, the biggest issue for me was how wet it was when I was there - mucky muddy yuck all over - but y'all live on that wet side so I don't think it can be avoided.  I gripe about how much dust is stirred up when the goats are playing - but I'll take the heat and dust over those mucky goat yards ANY DAY!  

So, all that to say - I don't think she's raising sickly babies.  I do think some different management practices would likely lessen the stress on the babies and make transitioning better (starting them on the bottle sooner or at least not pulling them from mom until weanable ages) and perhaps starting cocci treatment a little sooner - but the babies that I saw there didn't seem to be sick or neglected in any way.    

When last we were there she was doing some disbudding and getting babies onto the bottle.  Having those things done and out of the way will make a big difference in transition.  The two boys I bought are polled.  The first doe we bought has been disbudded - but much later than I think should have been done - time will tell if it was successful.  The other girl we brought home (the one who has been sick) had only recently been done so she was likely older than she should have been done as well but here buds are tiny so I'm hoping it was successful (they didn't pop off the caps like we've seen done before).  They all seemed very healthy when we first got them - and they are all getting back there now - I really think it was stress that allowed all the issues to get started.

They're cuties - that's for sure - and very loveable.  I'll share photos soon.  I've been too busy dosing and pushing meds to even think about getting the camera out there!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 2, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> and with over 100 goats there's just no way to keep cocci completely gone.


With 10 goats there's no way to keep cocci completely gone.  It's always just a matter of keeping levels down, not eliminating them all together.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 2, 2011)

We treat for cocci, put the kids on a medicated creep-feed, wean them and make sure they are eating well. give them vaccinations, Bo=se shots, ect.... before selling them.  And this spring I sold 4 lovely little does to a family with 4 kids, and 48 hours after bringing them home one of them decided to start scouring like no tomorrow. None of them ever scoured here.  they all looked very healthy.  she is now 4 weeks after bringing them home on her second round of cocci treatments and wormings, penn G shots. I even drove 45 minutes to their house the first raound of scours and took her a small partial bottle of vitamin B, probiotics. Gave them each another Bo-sE shot. ect....... She is being so understanding. I feel so bad.  They had tried goats the year before and lost all of them. She said, she knew goats were difficult.     I do not want those kids to have to loose another goat.


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