# Llorelei Needs Here Own Thread -- She's Doing Terrific



## SkyWarrior

Okay, I've had a horrible year and now I'm looking at two very sick llamas.  Weather has been awful and we've had a sudden shift to below zero weather after having nothing but rain before that and the grossest mud.  We lost Sid because he was 21 years old.  We lost Rico at 14 due to cancer.  Now,  we have two sick llamas (Roland 8 and Llorelei 1).  I had given everyone ivermectin shots to treat the hair loss that everyone got and it is enough to combat meningeal worm.  They all have the CDT shots.  

Roland refused to get up first.  He had gotten an ear infection from a fight and it was obvious he got a fever.  He is inside the barn with a coat because he had lost his hair due to some skin condition.  He hasn't gotten up, but eats okay.  Tonight he was acting like he might get up.  I had lanced his ear and he's on antibiotics twice a day (Pen G).

Tonight Llorelei refused to get up.  Brought her into the barn and fed her.  She can't get her front legs to work.  So, I fed her and have in the barn with water and food.

At this point, I'm at a loss.  I will get a phone call into the vet, but honestly, I don't think they can do anything I'm not doing already.  I'm thinking about giving them both B vitamin shots.  I don't want to lose these two.

Thoughts?


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## promiseacres

I really don't know but have they had a different dewormer?  Discovered we have Ivermectin resistant parasites this summer. Sounds like what happened with my donkeys... we never did discover why.

I would do the vitamin b, wouldn't hurt.n


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## Hens and Roos

not sure , hoping you get them feeling better soon


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## Latestarter

Could it be a combination of things? You mention hair loss and weakness.. a mineral deficiency? or wrong minerals? Like copper for goats but not sheep? I'm just guessing as I know nothing about llamas... Sorry you're dealing with sick animals once again this year


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## Baymule

Big hugs, I also know nothing about llamas, but will pray that your llamas get better.


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## SkyWarrior

Got a phone call into the veterinarian. Maybe I can get him out here?


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## SkyWarrior

promiseacres said:


> I really don't know but have they had a different dewormer?  Discovered we have Ivermectin resistant parasites this summer. Sounds like what happened with my donkeys... we never did discover why.
> 
> I would do the vitamin b, wouldn't hurt.n



True.  I used Ivermectin shots because of risk of meningeal worms.  No apparent problems with anemia.  I may go with Panacur next to see if they can improve.


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## norseofcourse

I don't know anything about llamas, but I sure hope you and/or the vet can figure out something to help them.


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## SkyWarrior

Vet didn't call me back. 

Checked both of them and noticed that they are anemic.  Decided to give them Ivermectin paste and banamine.  Roland will get his shot of antibiotics.  I may have to see what to dose them on Fenbendazole.


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## promiseacres

I assume they can get coccidiousis. I would do a fecal asap.


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## Baymule

Vet didn't even call you back?     and 

How are they doing today?


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## Goat Whisperer

Sorry to hear you are having more trouble with the llamas! So sorry for the ones you lost 

We have a friend who called a vet out when one of the goats were acting funny. The vet had no idea what was wrong with him, she gave some thiamine but didn't expect anything to happen. The goat was not improving at all. I saw the goat a few days later, and once I saw him I realized he had the classic symptoms of M. worm 
They a treated him with Fenbendazole and banamine. He started improving but the neurological damage was already done so they had to send him to slaughter. I wish I had seen him sooner. He was their bottle baby so is wasn't easy  

If you think its M worm go with your gut  Hope they start improving soon


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## SkyWarrior

promiseacres said:


> I assume they can get coccidiousis. I would do a fecal asap.



No sign of diarrhea.  I'm pretty sure it's not coccidia.



Baymule said:


> Vet didn't even call you back?     and
> 
> How are they doing today?



You got to love that, don't you?  Yes, it annoyed me too, but not uncommon for the vets at this particular practice.  I was actually busy today and ended up going to another (different) vet to pick up more banamine. Talked with the vet briefly while I was there.  I suspect two things are going on.  Long story short, Roland had choked on something before this all happened.  Tons and tons of mucus coughed up.  Started treating him with PenG.  His brother was kind enough to tear into his ear and cause it to abscess.  Then we hit -9 and that froze solid.  So I managed to lance his ear when the temperature warmed slightly.  Yesterday, I noticed they're anemic.  (Yay!  Cold and parasite load!)  So, I redosed them with Ivermectin.  I'm giving them iron and B-complex tonight. The vet recommended moxidectin instead of fenben, so I picked some up and gave that to them today.  I'll be shoving banamine, probiotics, iron and B-complex in them.  Roland gets is shot of penG.  Both are in the barn and both are eating.  That's a plus.  I need them on their feet. 

Oh, and Roland is drinking way too much water.  I really do suspect an infection.




Goat Whisperer said:


> Sorry to hear you are having more trouble with the llamas! So sorry for the ones you lost
> 
> We have a friend who called a vet out when one of the goats were acting funny. The vet had no idea what was wrong with him, she gave some thiamine but didn't expect anything to happen. The goat was not improving at all. I saw the goat a few days later, and once I saw him I realized he had the classic symptoms of M. worm
> They a treated him with Fenbendazole and banamine. He started improving but the neurological damage was already done so they had to send him to slaughter. I wish I had seen him sooner. He was their bottle baby so is wasn't easy
> 
> If you think its M worm go with your gut  Hope they start improving soon



I honestly don't think it's meningeal worm, but stranger things have happened.  Yeah, losing one llama to cancer and another to old age sucks.  I don't need another death here.


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## SkyWarrior

Finally got hold of the vet.  He was coming out our way, luckily.  He was concerned it might be nematodirus -- a roundworm I hadn't heard about and hadn't read much about.  The weight loss and hair loss were possible clues.  Note that all the adult goats are fine, and the last necropsy on a baby goat yielded nothing. So, this is apparently a llama thing at the moment. 

He drew blood on both Roland and Llorelei. Gave them banamine and B-complex shots (I had been giving banamine and B-complex, but apparently I don't have his super-dupper versions. He also gave oxfenbendazole for the possible worms.  

Blood tests will hopefully show something.  He remarked on their thinness, but we've been dumping hay and grain into these guys. Switched wormers a bunch. Did everything apparently right, but we need a real direction.

I am frustrated. Hopefully we can get them both over this. Roland is sketchy; Llorelei is better than he is, thankfully.


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## Goat Whisperer

Glad Llorelei is looking better.  Fingers crossed!

Happy that the vet was able to get back to you! Hoping they have a quick recovery.

Have they ever been tested for Johnes? I don't think this is what is causing the issues but you may want to look into it if they are still dropping weight. It seems to popping up more and more. Many in the goat world don't see the need to test....I am worried that the goats are going to end up like the cattle, I believe it is 86% of cattle have the disease 

Why haven't you had a fecal run? I know M worm wont show up but most others will, including nematodirus. I know the vet bill can get pricey quick but it seems like it would be better then shooting in the dark I though Fenbendazole treated nematodirus anyway... Maybe a different dosage is needed 

I know you probably can't do it now, but you should look at running your own fecals. You can get a good kit for under $200 and its easy to do


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## SkyWarrior

Goat Whisperer said:


> Glad Llorelei is looking better.  Fingers crossed!
> 
> Happy that the vet was able to get back to you! Hoping they have a quick recovery.
> 
> Have they ever been tested for Johnes? I don't think this is what is causing the issues but you may want to look into it if they are still dropping weight. It seems to popping up more and more. Many in the goat world don't see the need to test....I am worried that the goats are going to end up like the cattle, I believe it is 86% of cattle have the disease
> 
> Why haven't you had a fecal run? I know M worm wont show up but most others will, including nematodirus. I know the vet bill can get pricey quick but it seems like it would be better then shooting in the dark I though Fenbendazole treated nematodirus anyway... Maybe a different dosage is needed
> 
> I know you probably can't do it now, but you should look at running your own fecals. You can get a good kit for under $200 and its easy to do




I don't think llamas can get Johnnes.  I will check on that.

Second, this all happened Thanksgiving week.  I tried to get the vet out here earlier but he didn't call me back.  I am about 40 miles from a large animal vet who will look at llamas.

This issue started showing up when we got the three boy llamas.  I had been on the phone to the vet when Rico was dying and he told me point blank it was cancer.  A necropsy revealed cancer.

Sid was 21.  Llamas are lucky if they see 20.  Most die somewhere around 15.  We put him down ourselves because the sudden temperature drop simply was too much.

Right now, I'm still paying off $1000 in vet bills.  These include a necropsy on a goat that shows nothing.  Nothing.

Running fecals right now isn't cost effective especially with blood work.


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## Goat Whisperer

Oh I completely understand @SkyWarrior! *Please don't take it as judging or criticizing!* Sometimes the tone gets misinterpreted when its typed vs actual talking  I know you take great care of your animals and do whatever you can! 

You know way more about llamas then I do, I'm just throwing ideas out. 

I know you have really been through it with your critters this year. Next year HAS to be better, right?
I knew it wouldn't be a good time to buy a scope etc. I was just mentioning it for future, once the vet bills are paid and you have some extra cash to spend. 

Yes, llamas can get Johne's. This is a good article. You can get more in depth info if you wish. I don't think their %'s for the cattle have been updated. But it is still good info nonetheless 
http://dec.alaska.gov/eh/docs/vet/Disease/JohneWeb3-07.pdf


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## SkyWarrior

Goat Whisperer said:


> Oh I completely understand @SkyWarrior! *Please don't take it as judging or criticizing!* Sometimes the tone gets misinterpreted when its typed vs actual talking  I know you take great care of your animals and do whatever you can!



Sorry to sound annoyed.  I've been going through hell with these animals and trying to come up with something that makes sense.

I know the vet took a fair amount of blood, so if things look puzzling, I might ask him about Johnes.  But, I really wonder how that would work with a pen full of fat goats which the llamas hang out with.



Goat Whisperer said:


> You know way more about llamas then I do, I'm just throwing ideas out.
> 
> I know you have really been through it with your critters this year. Next year HAS to be better, right?
> I knew it wouldn't be a good time to buy a scope etc. I was just mentioning it for future, once the vet bills are paid and you have some extra cash to spend.



Well, I feel sort of like an idiot for not knowing about nematodirus. I mean, I know about roundworms, whipworms, tapes, hooks, pins, coccidia, meningeal, bots, and just about everything else, and I go mental over one type of worm because I thought "just another roundworm..."

I hope this next year is better. Losing two dogs, two llamas, 6 baby goats, and one cat due to various illnesses does make life difficult. I do have a bunch of healthy goats, which isn't awful and our new Malamute is active and crazy.  But If it's all the same, I'd rather have less drama.


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## Baymule

Sometimes it all hits you at one time. One after another until you feel like it will never end.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Aww! I'm sorry for all the losses you've had this year!   

Hope your llamas get better real soon!


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## SkyWarrior

Last night I found Llorelei on her side.  After some shifting her around, I figured she was resting, but seeing her like that scared me.  She's okay today, so far, but she isn't getting up. Today I'm shoving in wormer the vet left, banamine, antibiotics, probiotics, and probably Vitamin B multi shot again for both of them. I put Terry on a wormer that states it handles nematodirus, but honestly, why are the llamas show this problem when the goats are fat and healthy?  We would let LLorelei and Sid run loose in the barn and let them eat as much hay as they wanted on from the bails there.  I have been free feeding Roland since he didn't get up and we put a flake of hay out of reach of the goats but accessible to the llamas and they never finish the flakes off even after more than an hour.

So, basically I'm wondering what in the heck is going on. These guys have gotten enough wormers to kill darn near anything, have gotten antibiotics and pain meds, and we're waiting on lab results -- assuming we get the lab results back before someone dies.


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## goatgurl

oh SkyWarrior, I'm sorry you are having to deal with all this.  remember that this to will pass, you and the llamas just have to survive until it does.  hope you get the results of the blood work quickly.


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## promiseacres

unfortunately some parasites do better in certain species... was a fecal ever checked? Protazoan parasites won't always cause gi upset and tend to be specie specific. When we lost our donkeys the only problem was elavated wbc... the vet said colic... but I figured it was some type of long term infection which contributed.


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## SkyWarrior

Roland died. The wormers are doing nothing and the anemia continues.

The veterinarian does not call me back. 

The goats, who should be affected, aren't.  They are fat and healthy.  They are in the same pen.  This should be killing them.  (No, I don't need that).

I am solidly convinced it is _Mycoplasma haemolamae  _or _Eperythrozoon __, _a camelid blood borne parasite. Sid and Llorelei were healthy before we brought Rico, Terry, and Roland into the herd. Three things occurred that I can point to that might have spread it:

Once we  brought the three in we suddenly had issues with lice or mange.  Cleared that up and then the weather turned evilly cold.  Roland got into a fight with Terry and injured the heck out or Llorelei's ear.  I started seeing them going downhill after that along with the change in the weather.

Basically what I am looking at is a camelid-only disease.  I may have lucked out with Llorelei that her immune system might have fought it long enough for me to figure it out.  If I had switched antibiotics, Roland might be alive.     Right now, I have both Llorelei and Terry on oxytetracycline.  I have gone through ALL my syringes from treating them and will be picking up more tomorrow and look like a drug addict buying as many as I do.

Now, I just have to find the regimen for treating this disease. At least I have them on oxytetracycline. 

Oh, and did I mention the veterinarian has yet to call me back from Friday?


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## frustratedearthmother

Oh that just sucks.... I'm so sorry for your loss and all your problems with these guys and especially the ignoramus vet who didn't call back.


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## Latestarter

Sorry you lost yet another animal... I don't know your farm status as to whether you can write some of these losses off on your taxes... If like me, no such luck  But it has been a hellacious year for you... I hope you've correctly ID'd the cause and you can get it stopped and reversed. Vets are probably few and far between where you're located (wouldn't that also figure?) but if not, maybe time to locate another... Hang on... a new year is right around the corner... it's GOT to be better for you!


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## Baymule

Wow, I am so sorry about your llama. I hope you can save the others. And the vet! What a terrible situation to be in with NO vet. I sure would let him know what I think of his thoughtlessness and I would make sure everyone I talked to, EVERYWHERE, knew about it too. There has to be a vet that has consideration for their patients somewhere around there.


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## promiseacres

so sorry.


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## Goat Whisperer

Not the update I was hoping for 

I am so sorry you lost another llama 

I do have to say, I think your awesome to keep going after so much heartbreak.  Not many people would.


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## BlessedWithGoats

I'm so sorry!  That's awful!


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## babsbag

Darn it... I was hoping it would end diffently. Hoping that Llorelei is able to beat this; you have been through enough.


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## SkyWarrior

Baymule said:


> Wow, I am so sorry about your llama. I hope you can save the others. And the vet! What a terrible situation to be in with NO vet. I sure would let him know what I think of his thoughtlessness and I would make sure everyone I talked to, EVERYWHERE, knew about it too. There has to be a vet that has consideration for their patients somewhere around there.



Western Montana.  We have precisely two vets in the area who know anything about llamas. I mentioned Epe to one and got a blank look and a shocked expression that injectable Ivermectin didn't do the job.  The other vet is the one who does not call me.  Who is certain this is nematodirus.  The ones who are left are still anemic after four days of treatment and no phone calls back.  



Goat Whisperer said:


> Not the update I was hoping for
> 
> I am so sorry you lost another llama
> 
> I do have to say, I think your awesome to keep going after so much heartbreak.  Not many people would.



One person I'm talking to lost 17 alpacas in the course of 11 days due to their blood borne parasite. I think I would've been horrified with that.  I've got nothing on him.  I'll be on the phone with him tomorrow.  



babsbag said:


> Darn it... I was hoping it would end diffently. Hoping that Llorelei is able to beat this; you have been through enough.



No kidding.  And thanks.  I gave them their first dose of oxytetracycline and am hoping this is what will turn the tide.


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## norseofcourse

Best thoughts for their recovery...    so sorry for the loss...


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## Hens and Roos

So sorry for your loss and hope the others recover


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## Baymule

I did not know that llamas and alpacas suffered from a parasite like that. They always looked so strong and healthy out in the fields. I am so sorry that your llamas are so sick. I hope the oxytetracycline works.


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## goatgurl

here's praying the oxytet works.  so sorry about your loss.


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## Ferguson K

Fingers crossed over here this does the trick!!!


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## SkyWarrior

Okay, I just had my eyes opened how little the veterinary community knows about llamas -- and Epe.  I talked to an alpaca breeder in Missouri that evidently went through this exact same thing seven years ago and lost 17 alpacas in 11 days. The blood borne disease Epe is now called *Mycoplasma haemolama* and evidently it's endemic to camelids throughout the world. It can suddenly kill if the camelid gets stressed, such as new digs, a drastic change in the weather, or other potential stressors.

It is thought to be misdiagnosed as something else like lymphoma or worms.(This is really getting familiar)

Only one place in the world has a test for it.  And according the breeder, other treatments may cause results to get skewed.

Here is his White Paper.  Read it, if interested.

Now, I gave Llorelei and Terry oxytetracycline last night.  When I got home, I checked Llorelei's eyelids.  They had been white, even after days of wormings.  Tonight they look pink.  PINK!  OMG.  She's still down, but the thought of pink eyelids has given me hope.  Maybe, maybe, maybe I might be able to save her and Terry.

On another note, the vet hasn't even called me back with the fecal and blood test results.  And I have a dead llama to show for that.


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## Baymule

I did read that White Paper. It was very informative. Even though I don't have llamas or alpacas, I might know someone some day who does and this tidbit of knowledge tucked away might help someone else. I am glad that they are showing improvement.


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## Latestarter

I truly hope this is the solution.


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## SkyWarrior

Baymule said:


> I did read that White Paper. It was very informative. Even though I don't have llamas or alpacas, I might know someone some day who does and this tidbit of knowledge tucked away might help someone else. I am glad that they are showing improvement.



I had read some other pieces written by veterinarians.  Epe seemed a possibility but I discounted it when the vet said it had to be Nematodirus.  Roland paid for my trust.  



Latestarter said:


> I truly hope this is the solution.



I do too.  


Here's the update after feeding.  Neither Terry or Llorelei want me to touch their heads (good -- llama behavior).  Llorelei is annoyed at the shots (excellent); Terry was too busy eating to care (jury out on that). Terry ravenous (should be given how much weight lost). Llorelei wants mostly sweet feed (jury out on that).  Terry is shaky (bad); Llorelei still won't get up (bad). Terry's eyes are still indicative of anemia (bad); Llorelei's  eyes are showing pink (good).

What does this all mean?  I don't know.  Guardedly possibly good news.  Gave them some more oxytetracycline even though the dosage is every other day.  (Won't hurt)  Gave them B complex again.  Emotionally wrung out.  Wish I could bring back Sid and Roland.

Realize it could happen to anyone.  Why me?  Because of screwed up weather.


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## promiseacres

hope they are both truly mending, how frustrating with the vets.


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## Hens and Roos

sending a few your way, hang in there!


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## Latestarter

<---one more time with hopes of a good outcome. Man... you've had a tough year..


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## SkyWarrior

Another update:

Llorelei's belly had been tight and for a while, I was pretty sure her rumen was trying to stop.  No longer the case.

She's pooping again now that I gave her the tetracycline.  No clue why.  Her belly is more like a llama belly than a drum.  She is eating pretty well.

Terry looks awful and I wonder how in the heck he can stand up with that little amount of weight. Poor guy has been on Quest, oxyfenben, and valbazen.  And of course tetracycline. He's eating like crazy. His anemia is still pretty obvious.  I'm giving him and Llorelei another iron shot today. It's been 6 days since they had one.  More B vitamins too. Maybe banamine.

SIGH.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Oh, SkyWarrior, this must be so hard, all that you've gone through!! 

 I hope Llorelei and Terry recover quickly!!


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## Mini Horses

Is there a zoo anywhere near, that you could call for advice from their vets??   I'm just thinking "specialization".   Well, zoo comes to mind in this case.

I'm sorry for the deaths and lack of results.  Sometimes we just can't win and have been down that road.  Hard to take and very stressful.   Wish I could help you out.


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## Baymule

I've had animals die in my arms after throwing everything I could think of at them. Sometimes it seems that no matter what you do..... and I'd go sit and have a good cry, get up and start again. No matter the heartbreak, the rewards are greater than the pain. My thoughts are with you and my prayer is for their recovery.


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## SkyWarrior

Mini Horses said:


> Is there a zoo anywhere near, that you could call for advice from their vets??   I'm just thinking "specialization".   Well, zoo comes to mind in this case.
> 
> I'm sorry for the deaths and lack of results.  Sometimes we just can't win and have been down that road.  Hard to take and very stressful.   Wish I could help you out.



I think if it is Epe, I'd have to find a camelid vet. There are no zoos here for literally hundreds of miles. I know Denver has camelids, but I suspect the better phone call would be to CSU because they do have a vet who published info about it and llamas in Colorado.

I get the weird stuff. I think it's because I know the symptoms of the traditional stuff and get on them quick.  It's the diseases that perplex everyone else that gives me headaches.


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## SkyWarrior

Baymule said:


> I've had animals die in my arms after throwing everything I could think of at them. Sometimes it seems that no matter what you do..... and I'd go sit and have a good cry, get up and start again. No matter the heartbreak, the rewards are greater than the pain. My thoughts are with you and my prayer is for their recovery.




Well, so far, they're still alive.  That is something, I suppose.  Oh and no word from the veterinarian.


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## HomesteaderWife

Best wishes to you in this difficult situation.  Do keep us updated


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## SkyWarrior

Last night Terry was too weak to get up.    Actually, I kind of been expecting this because he had been losing weight.  Felt backwards, and yet now that I have him in the barn, I can stuff him full of hay and grain.  I can also get a fair idea of how he is doing.  Both llamas got their tetracycline shots today.

Llorelei is mad at me big time.  I screwed up and hit veins twice with the tetracycline which probably burned like heck.  She tried to get up and teach me a lesson.  Still too weak, but I have a fighting llama who is mad. She's hating the banamine, the shots, the iron, the looking at her eyes, and other things.  She's pooping up a storm, but no diarrhea.  Eyes are still indicative of anemia. No apparent fever. Just a weak, annoyed llama.  Keep it up girl, and you just may get a whole barn of hay when you get up.  I'll buy more bails if these two come around.  Those I can replace.

Wormed the goats for good measure today with valbazen.  We're back to mud because we had a chinook.  Snowed again today and everything is squishy.  We're under a winter weather advisory.

I'm still convinced this is Epe, despite the headache with Terry. Llorelei is doing better.  Terry is maintaining even though he is not strong enough to stand.  I am hoping I can keep these two progressing and alive.  It's touchy with the weird weather.

On another note, I've heard of someone back east who lost 37 of the llamas out of a herd of about 180 from Epe. They actually paid to have the EPA run tests on their land because the vets had convinced them there was something endemic to their property.  Nope.  Epe.  Got to love that.  Not!!   

These poor llamas have had so many wormers thrust into them, I can't believe for a moment that they have worms of any variety. Killing the infection will most likely bring back the red blood cells since the body won't be attacking them any longer.  (Shakes head).  For those of you with other animals, I want you to be aware that there are similar bacteria that attacks other species' blood.  I am sorely tempted if I have ANYTHING wrong with my goats, they get tetracycline.


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## babsbag

Sorry you are still going through this; sick animals are just so hard to deal with, it can really wear a person out emotionally and physically.  

I was surprised to read that this is a mycoplasma and that is responds to tetracyline. There are some mycoplasmas that affect goats and there is no cure for it. You can chase it into remission with Tylan but the goat will remain a carrier. Mycos are tough little buggers to kill and it seems that they are on the rise.


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## SkyWarrior

babsbag said:


> Sorry you are still going through this; sick animals are just so hard to deal with, it can really wear a person out emotionally and physically.
> 
> I was surprised to read that this is a mycoplasma and that is responds to tetracyline. There are some mycoplasmas that affect goats and there is no cure for it. You can chase it into remission with Tylan but the goat will remain a carrier. Mycos are tough little buggers to kill and it seems that they are on the rise.



You can never really get rid of mycoplasmas (isn't that lovely?) but you can beat them back.  Apparently it is a real problem in camelids that nobody talks about in the US mainly because camelids have been misdiagnosed for years because it mimics so many other diseases.  Also, there is only one place in the world that tests for this in camelids.  That kind of makes it damn near impossible for people to get a handle on it.  In 2004, a vet at CSU stated that it was estimated 25% of all camelids have it and 80% of camelids in Colorado have it.  The guy I spoke with on the phone who is the breeder who has more experience with this than just about anyone believes that ALL camelids have it.  Period.  It's just a matter of stress  causing it to get them sick.

BTW, for those interested, there are mycoplasmas you need to keep an eye on that infect other animals:  http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/circulatory_system/blood_parasites/hemotropic_mycoplasmas.html


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## Hens and Roos

sending positive thoughts your way


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## SkyWarrior

Last night was tough.  Terry died.  He died with food in his mouth.  How messed up is that? 

I finally have some answers, though not the ones that will point to the problem.  After NINE days of calling the vet for lab results (NINE! I ended up calling after hours and got the vet on call who bugged him to finally call me ) I finally have some answers to what it is NOT.

No worms.  Nothing in their intestinal tracks that would keep them losing weight.  Basically, I was told I had wormy/coccidia laden animals when I didn't.  

I mentioned Epe. He said they looked at the blood (read: didn't send it to the only place--Oregon State University--that has half a chance of really evaluating the disease) and didn't see it.  More: 

Claims that the hay and everything I'm feeding them isn't feeding them. Okaay.  Why suddenly?  First it was: you're not feeding them enough. Uh, I had both Llorelei and Sid LOOSE in my hay barn for 12+ hours at a time for months.  They got plenty.  Sid had his teeth floated a couple of months back even though this vet suggested I put him down because he was old.  

Okay, then he said: these guys need to forage.  Uh, Sid was on hay and grain for 7 years and lived to 21.  Llorelei was fat on hay and grain for a year, at least.   The new llamas had been in an empty large corral when we got them and were fed hay before we got them.  We switched briefly to alfalfa/grass mix which should've actually HELPED them in the colder weather.  And what would they eat?  Dead knapweed?  Houndstongue -- which is poisonous?

He said either that or it's Johnes.

Great.  

Johnes has a super long gestation period.  A cria that is a bit more than a year isn't going to show signs.  And why would it occur all at once?  No sense there. We only had the three new ones for a couple of months before this started.

So, we wormed the hell out of my animals for no good reason. He gave them B multivitamin and iron shots, which I had already been doing but didn't listen to me. He took samples and ran them in his own lab and then blames that I don't feed my guys.  My goats are all fat!  My llamas, which had their own feeder or were loose in the barn WERE fat up until two weeks before Thanksgiving, and then they dropped weight like stones. 

I was able to keep the llamas together and see improvement when I started the oxytetracycline. They died each time when the temperature dropped and they couldn't rally, despite putting coats on and other ways to ensure they were warm.

Llorelei was on death's door when the vet saw her two weeks ago.  She's gained weight. She's growing her hair back.  She's eating.  And she's now trying to get up.  

At this point, I'm thinking it is epe because I don't yet have a dead cria.  The times my animals crashed were during the huge stress of the weather change.  Going from 50 degrees and raining with mud to 9 degrees and ice is horrible. Each switch knocked down the defenses.  The day-in day-out rain had to screw them up.  They lost their coats starting with Rico and going through Terry and Roland.  Llorelei was the last to lose her coat and Sid never lost his.  (The moment that started I went with lice dust and then to injectible Ivermectin.)

Either that, or I'm dealing with some disease that the three new llamas brought in.   Only, there aren't that many diseases that you can point to.

I thought you would like to hear what was happening. I am NEVER going back to that veterinarian.  EVER.


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## Hens and Roos

so sorry


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## Goat Whisperer

Wow. Just wow. 

I understand that vets will not have all the answers but now it seems like he is out of guesses and is blaming it on you/your feeding schedule  I understand not wanting to go back to him. 



SkyWarrior said:


> A cria that is a bit more than a year isn't going to show signs.


Didn't know that. Interesting, I believe that when goats have Johne's they don't usually show symptoms until they are several years old  

I am so sorry SW. This has been an huge ordeal. Such a financial, physical, and emotional toll 

Very sad to hear about Terry. 



Hoping you are nearing the end of whatever is causing these issues.


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## Baymule

Wow.....because the vet couldn't come up with a diagnosis (even though you _told _him what it is) he blames you. What a moron.  Would you like me to come up there and open up a six pack of Texas whup-ass on him? All you've been through and he blames you for it.  

I am so sorry about Terry. Big hugs to you.


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## promiseacres

to you
  that you've getting the remaining lamas thru it
to the vet who doesn't give a d***


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## BlessedWithGoats

I'm so sorry Skywarrior!!   You have done so much to try to get these animals well, and you have done great taking care of them! I hope that Llorelei recovers soon!!


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## Latestarter

Too many "WOWs" to go round... unbelievable! I feel so sorry for you and all you've been through this year! Too many losses! and worse... no real explanation for most of them! Unreal! Nothing I can say that I feel is adequate for your situation. It just plain sucks. So sorry.


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## babsbag

Sorry that you lost another one and now the vet has the nerve to try and blame you. That just really stinks. It just seems strange that they all started to go downhill at the same time. it would be a real coincidence if Johne's would present like that. What a horrible ordeal.


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## SkyWarrior

Thanks, Everyone, I appreciate your words.  What has really gotten me mad about the vet is the lack of caring.  I mean, I've never known a vet to not call with lab results, especially if I call several times.  Nine days was too long.

I'm still guardedly optimistic on Llorelei who is moving around like a kid sitting at a school desk. Basically, she wants to get up but can't.  Tried helping her up tonight: no go.  Gave her a B shot and she tried to kick me.  (Yay!)  Iffy on eating, but ate some llama lunch (grain) and I put down hay.  Eyelids look MUCH better.  Gave her banamine and probios tonight.

She's warm in the barn and, as I said before, her hair is growing back. She's mad at me for sticking her with needles. Tomorrow another round of tetracycline, B vitamins, banamine, and probios.  Sigh. Poor kid feels like a pincushion.  Last night she got her iron shot.  I've been told to stagger those every five days to avoid liver toxicity.

Assuming I get her on her feet, the alpaca breeder who talked with me about this disease told me that it'll take a full year for her to recover.  Not what I'm looking forward to, but a problem I'd rather have than not, given the current circumstances.

So far, I haven't seen anything vets can do that I can't when it comes to my livestock except major surgeries and prescriptions. Luckily, I have another vet who is happy to set me up with banamine.


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## goatgurl

oh man SW i am so sorry you lost terry.  and I'm with baymule on the can of whoop azz.  i don't live in texas but I'm close enough to know how to open the can.  blaming you!  what a crock!!  they would probably all be dead if you weren't working so hard to keep them going.  i wouldn't go back to him either.


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## purplequeenvt

How long has she been down? She might not be able to get up herself if it's been too long.


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## SkyWarrior

purplequeenvt said:


> How long has she been down? She might not be able to get up herself if it's been too long.



She's been down about 2 weeks.  Yes, a long time.  I have tried to help her up, but she isn't having any of that just yet.  She is moving around though.  We're talking she moved eight feet from her previous position yesterday.  I may have to do some massaging of her legs to get them back in good working order. She wants to get up.  She just is having problems still.


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## goatgurl

have you thought about making a sling for her to hang in?  i did that for a goat once and it really seemed to help her.  i hung her from the rafter in the barn just so her hoofs barely touched the floor, it got her legs moving and she got stronger. something to think about.


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## Goat Whisperer

How long was the doe in the sling @goatgurl ?

We had a doe go down years ago and when we asked one of our vets if we put the doe in a sling, he said no & that it can make goats bloat


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## goatgurl

i didn't leave her all the time.   i would pull her up, massage her legs, she would move them around and that helped with the circulation and muscle tone.  I'd leave her up for about an hour and back down she'd go.  and i stayed with her the whole time she was up,  did that a couple of times a day.  i was told if they are in a sling to long it puts pressure on their rumen and it messes them up so with her it was an up and down thing.  she had aflatoxin poisoning from some bad hay and was down so long she had a pressure ulcer on her sternum.  maybe that's what the vet was talking about.


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## SkyWarrior

Well, she's about 150-200 lbs, and luckily gaining weight every day.    A little heavy for our barn rafters. She is moving, which is very good.  I caught her moving in the barn.  She walks with her hind legs and walks on her front knee joint.  She gets out of her poop (good) and has been moving as much as 20 feet between feedings.

I figure she's not ready yet, but I do encourage her.  Gave her iron shot, banamine, and B vitamins today.  I have been rubbing her forelegs, when she'll let me, and extend them.  I may have to talk to the alpaca guy about how to rehab her.  I think she wants to be up, just doesn't quite have the strength.  OTOH, she is getting stronger.  

Right now, I'm thankful she's gotten through the solstice.  Next stop, Christmas eve!


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## goatgurl

ok then, i hadn't thought about how much bigger a llama is than a goat.  would cause a problem wouldn't it, lol.  as it was mine was a 150# goat so i pulled her up using a block and tackle and the lawn mower.  she was not amused but that was 4 years ago and she is still here making trouble whenever she can.  just keep working with her, it sounds like she is on the mend.


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## SkyWarrior

goatgurl said:


> ok then, i hadn't thought about how much bigger a llama is than a goat.  would cause a problem wouldn't it, lol.  as it was mine was a 150# goat so i pulled her up using a block and tackle and the lawn mower.  she was not amused but that was 4 years ago and she is still here making trouble whenever she can.  just keep working with her, it sounds like she is on the mend.



Just a tiny bit bigger.  I can just barely move her while she's down.  Getting kicked by her isn't something I'm looking forward to but I'm expecting because of all the shots.

Getting kicked by goats is laughable by comparison.


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## Baymule

Does a llama kick harder than a horse?


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## SkyWarrior

Baymule said:


> Does a llama kick harder than a horse?


 I suspect not, but their kicks look about the equivalent of a cow's kick with less weight behind it.


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## SkyWarrior

Well, guardedly good news!  Guess who stood up for the FIRST TIME since early December?

Llorelei wanted to get up and managed to get her front legs straightened out enough to stand.  I held her vertical for maybe 30 seconds while she worked on keeping herself up. When she finally had enough, I let her down so she could recover from that.

Well, she is still weak, but this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully we'll have more of these positive signs.  I suspect she's been trying to get up while we're not there because she has knocked over her water occasionally.  Still, a good sign.  I hope.


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## Ferguson K

That's fantastic news!!!! Way to go Lorelei! This is a big step in the right direction. We're all cheering for her.


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## promiseacres

great effort.


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## frustratedearthmother

So glad to hear that!  We're all rooting for her - and you!


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## Hens and Roos

that is great to hear!!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Yay!! Good girl Llorelei!!


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## animalmom

Best news I've had all day!  That was a fabulous Christmas gift.


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## SkyWarrior

More good news.  Last night around 3:30 am I left Llorelei facing the back of the barn by the turkey pen.  Today, my husband found her 20 feet away at the front of the barn facing the door.  So, she moved big time.  She wants to go back to the pen with the goats, but she's too weak.  But the fact that she is wanting to rejoin what's left of her herd (sadly, just the goats) is a good thing. 

I bet she misses the other llamas.  Maybe in time I'll get another pal for her, but right now she has to get better.  This has been such a devastating disease that I just have to make sure she's going to survive it. 

I'm thinking the vet needs a load of coal sent to him.

If you take anything from my headaches, it's that mycoplasmas are devastating and the vets don't recognize them, at least in llamas, and at least around here.  Llamas are pretty much considered "junk animals" out here -- at least that's the attitude I've gotten from the vets.  Their attitudes have been more along the lines of why don't I put a bullet in my llamas' heads the first sign of trouble.   

I don't need that attitude.  I don't need some moron telling me I don't feed my animals or that I starve them because I feed them hay. Even though they've been raised on hay almost all their lives. I don't need them to tell me that they're wormy because they're in a pen.  When they aren't wormy.

Sigh.  Sorry.  I took a look at my first post.  Poor Llorelei has been down since December 1.  Just now, I'm thinking she might...just might...pull through.  But we have such a long haul.  I'm sending the link to these posts to the breeder so he can know he may have helped save her.

Don't rely on vets.  I generally don't, but I look to them for expertise when I don't have the answers.  Now, I have to think only I can get the answers out here.  That is truly horrifying.  

I don't want to think what I owe the vets this year.


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## Hens and Roos

Hang in there! I think you are doing a wonderful job


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## SkyWarrior

Hens and Roos said:


> Hang in there! I think you are doing a wonderful job




Thanks.


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## Latestarter

Sometimes think it's a shame you can't drop a malpractice suit on a vet... Have heard many horror stories about folks losing pets (even) due to vet incompetence, and there's no way to seek compensation or retribution. You get a shrug and are told it was "just a" dog/cat/whatever, "go get a replacement". <sigh> I'm so glad to hear that there's definite progress in the right direction for your llama. I hope her recovery is swift and thorough. After what she's been through, she may never get fully back to 100%, but I hope she makes it to 98%. Keep up the great work Sky.


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## SkyWarrior

Latestarter said:


> Sometimes think it's a shame you can't drop a malpractice suit on a vet... Have heard many horror stories about folks losing pets (even) due to vet incompetence, and there's no way to seek compensation or retribution. You get a shrug and are told it was "just a" dog/cat/whatever, "go get a replacement". <sigh> I'm so glad to hear that there's definite progress in the right direction for your llama. I hope her recovery is swift and thorough. After what she's been through, she may never get fully back to 100%, but I hope she makes it to 98%. Keep up the great work Sky.



Thanks.  I lost 4 llamas to this, including my trained packing llamas.    I pretty much have to start from scratch.  This so sucks big time. Ah well, I am lucky I have Llorelei so far.


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## Goat Whisperer

Very happy to hear that Llorelei is doing better. So sad for both you and Llorelei, y'all have lost so much 

Don't even get me started on the vet.....


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## SkyWarrior

I have a loose llama running around my barn now! 

Llorelei got mad at me for giving her a shot.  First, she tried to bite me.  Then, she got up and went to the hay bales and started eating.  Every time I approached to put down water or give food she moved off.  She wants to stay on her feet and is doing it without my help or encouragement.

She's loose in the barn.  She's got plenty of hay.  I think maybe, maybe, maybe she's getting better.  Merry Christmas!


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## frustratedearthmother

Absolutely AWESOME!


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## Hens and Roos

That's FANTASTIC!!!


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## Latestarter

And a Merry Christmas it is! That's wonderful news!


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## Goat Whisperer

So glad to hear this wonderful news!

Merry Christmas @SkyWarrior  You don't know how happy I am to hear this!


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## Mini Horses

Another Christmas miracle!   What a blessing you have from the hard work you have put into this girl.   So happy for you


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## Baymule

I am so excited and happy for you! Merry Christmas!


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## SkyWarrior

Thank you.  We've both nearly burst into tears seeing her standing up.  My thought now is to make sure she's solid before decreasing all the injections.  Poor thing.  She must feel like a pincushion with 2-4 shots a day and stuff shoved in her mouth.  No wonder she wants nothing to do with me.  I'm writing up an article with the experience.  I figure if it helps someone save their critters, so much the better.  I'll post the link when it's up.  Meantime, I'll give you status updates.


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## Hens and Roos




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## goatgurl

awww, SkyWarrior  I'm tickled to hear that she is up and about.  keep up the good work and stay away from both the kicking and biting ends.


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## Baymule

I'd almost be happy that she was trying to bite......._almost!_


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## babsbag

That is really good news. Hoping that this will all be behind you and that she is on the mend; always nice to see them fight us. You certainly have earned the llama owner of the year award, she is lucky to have you.


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## SkyWarrior

babsbag said:


> That is really good news. Hoping that this will all be behind you and that she is on the mend; always nice to see them fight us. You certainly have earned the llama owner of the year award, she is lucky to have you.



Thanks. If I had been on my toes more, I might have been able to save the four boys.  It sickens me that I had to bury so many this year.  I guess if you take anything from this, don't trust what vets say.  Even so called experts in the area.  I had to correct a vet on what actually worked on Epe.  Another vet looked at me oddly when I mentioned Epe (but to give him credit, he wasn't claiming to be a llama vet).

If a llama could be angry at me, it's Llorelei.  She runs away when I approach her so catching her for her shots and medications make life interesting.  She's thin, but she runs away from me. Getting bit by a doe llama is actually amusing.  They have no fighting teeth and only lower incisors in the front so it's like getting gummed.  Kicking though, I will avoid.  Luckily, she's a little thing so when I do catch her, I can hold her and get the medications into her.  

Dang, I miss the others.  They were such good llamas.


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## SkyWarrior

Baymule said:


> I'd almost be happy that she was trying to bite......._almost!_



I am actually happy she put up enough of a fuss to try to bite.  Got to be alive to be angry enough to bite.


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## promiseacres

so glad she's improved that much


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## alsea1

It sounds like you and the llamas have been thru hell. 
Trying to keep animals can be a roller coaster of ups and downs.
We will all be praying that your girl continues to get better and you manage to dodge those kicks.


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## Ferguson K

That's awesome news!!!

 Don't beat yourself up. ( I do the same thing, it doesn't help. ) Use it as a learning experience. She's alive and kicking ( pun intended ) and that's amazing!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Aww, I'm so glad Sky!!  I can't imagine how happy you must be to see her up and about again! You have been through soooo much!! Like @Ferguson K stated, don't beat yourself up! You did everything you knew/could to help them, and it is not your fault that some of them didn't make it! You have worked so hard to help these guys/gals!


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## goatgurl

yup, what they said.  quit picking on yourself!  you did everything you knew to do and kept on learning and pushing to get the answers you needed.


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## animalmom

@SkyWarrior, so how's your girl doing?  Llorelei should be very impressed by the number of fans she has on BYH!  I'd ask you to give her neck a big hug for me, but you might just get bit and that would be a bummer... understandable but still a bummer.  How about an updated picture of the miracle llama, please and thank you.


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## SkyWarrior

Llorelei is doing terrific.  I've been keeping her in the barn to keep warm but she's been ransacking the place (we have a pile of trash we need to move out and she knocks that all over), trying to get in all the grain, and turning the lights on and off.  Her hair is growing back and she's fat from eating the hay.  I'll take some picts of her today when I put her out in the goat pen.  She's bewildered because she no longer has a llama buddy, but we'll be looking for one when the snow goes away and we can get the trailer out.  Now that I know what Epe looks like--and it is subtle at first--I know to get them started on oxytetracycline right away.  Oh, and I have more complaints about vets because one of my wethers is recovering when the vets claimed he have poor results treating them.  Maybe I'll be writing Llorelei's tribulations in Mother Earth's News.  If I do, I'll go ahead and notify you all under a blog/notebook thread here.  I'll also post photos of the critters and what I'm doing.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Glad that Llorelei is doing wonderful! You did great helping her recover!


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## Goat Whisperer

So glad she is continuing to improve!


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## Laura White

what is the name of the wormer that takes care of Nematodirus and where did you purchase it  I have a male 3 year old alpaca that just might have it or it is worth a shot     also what is the dosage what is dosage for oxytetracycline   where did you find it   I am so upset and wo


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