# Pygmys crossed with a Boar!!???



## Four Winds Ranch (Feb 7, 2014)

Hi!
I was just recently given 4 Pygmy does, which are bred to a big Boar buck!  Should I be worried??  I have sheep, but this is my first experience with goats while kidding!


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 7, 2014)

I've been raising pygmy goats for nigh on to 25 years now and I'd be totally panicked!  But, a lot will depend on the doe.  My pygmies are former show goats and are itty, bitty things.  Not sure about your does.  Many, many years ago before I got into registered, show type goats I had bigger pygmies that probably had some crosses way back in their lineage somewhere.  Those does may have handled it - but I dunno....

My pygmy babies are small at birth... the biggest single I've ever had was 7 lbs and he was delivered by C-section.  Average twins may be only a couple of lbs and triplets less than that.

Cross your fingers and pray for multiples - or - talk to your vet about aborting the pregnancy.   A pregnancy can be aborted with Lutalyse or Dexamethasone.  Definitely ask your vet before attempting this if that's the route you decide.

Maybe there are other folks out there who've had experience with this - sorry I'm just projecting my own fears.


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 7, 2014)

How far along are they? I would be very concerned about this! I have seen small does get bred boers and come out ok. Others not so much. Have they kidded before, it so what were they bred to?

I would talk to your vet. We had a Nigerian doe get bred by a kiko buck (got thru fencing), the vet gave gave us a shot Lutalyse for the doe. Vet said being bred to a buck that big would likely kill the doe.  

Congrats on the goats! You will love them! Hopefully you can get everything sorted out with your girls!


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## AshleyFishy (Feb 7, 2014)

I wouldn't worry to much. Down here you see that cross alot or with a nubian buck. Just be mindful of when they are going to kid and be there to help if needed. Pygmy goats are kinda like roaches and cacti, very hard to kill.

Edited to add.....

In fact two of my girls were by a giant knob headed nubian out of a teeny pygmy/nigerian doe. She was a ff with twin girls! 







That is them at about three months I think. Most crosses I've see inherited the wedge head of the mom.


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## jodief100 (Feb 7, 2014)

I used to worry about such things....  Then I read some research being done in England.  They found baby size is determined by the mother.  They will almost always be born as small as the mother was but will grow much bigger overall. 

The research paper had pictures- it was hilarious.  There were baby Percheon/Shetland pony cross babies nursing their Shetland mommies.  When they were little it was fine but very quickly the baby was almost as big as the mom and still nursing! 

Just make sure they gets lots of good grain AFTER they kid and not too much before.  Lots of grain in the last month of gestation will give you big babies no matter what the breed.


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## HeatherL (Feb 7, 2014)

My doe is a Pygmy/Oberhassi cross.  I figured the Pygmy part was the dad...nope.  Pygmy was momma and she delivered twin does just fine.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 7, 2014)

And, if they don't get enough nutrition the last month you can easily lose the doe before she ever gets to kidding time.  It is a balancing act that gets dicier if a little doe is carrying a whole lot of baby weight.

Again - I will express my fears. In horses - baby size IS determined by mother  My experience with goats has been otherwise...  I've had baby pygmies be too big for their mothers when they were bred to another pygmy.  I do a Nubian/Pygmy cross but it's always small buck to bigger doe - NOT the other way around.

It's  not just the delivery  you have to worry about either.  Have you ever seen a doe with a prolapsed vagina or rectum?  If that doe doesn't have enough room in the uterus for those baby(ies) - things can start falling out.  It's not a pretty sight nor is it fun to deal with.

And, while being there to help is always good advice -if that baby is simply too large to fit through the birth canal -  it's not going to matter how much you try to help unless you want to pay for a C-section and can find a vet to do one.

I'm not saying it can't be done - because the evidence has been posted by others. What it would boil down to in my eyes is do you want to take that chance?  If they were mine, I would Lutalyse them and find a pygmy buck or other like-sized buck to breed them to.

Whatever your choice - I'll be sending prayers and good luck wishes!


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## Four Winds Ranch (Feb 7, 2014)

Thanks for all the info and different exmples!!!  I believe I will stand by and let them have a go of it! I will make sure I am around at the time and notify the Vet and have him on stand by! 2 of the Pygmy does have had kids before from a Pygmy buck and the other 2,it is their first time kidding! I don't know how far along they are , the guy I got them from said he had the Boar buck running with them since last April!
Another question, do goat does come into heat year around or are they seasonal?


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## AshleyFishy (Feb 7, 2014)

Year round


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

Some come into heat year round and some seasonal. Dairy breeds such as alpine, and lamancha and so on are seasonal breeders whereas Boer, Nubian, Nigerian and I do believe Pygmy are all year round breeders.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 7, 2014)

We have Standard and dwarf sized goats.
I wouldn't risk any of my dwarf girls. We have seen too many that have lost the doe and all the kids... others the trauma and expense was enormous for those that did make it.

Horrible way to have a doe die and awful to watch them suffer in agony trying to deliver a 7-10 lb kid. The smaller goats kids weight are 2-4 lbs.

I am not a fan of terminating for an oops breeding but at the same time this is much more of an issue than it just being an oops breeding.

Kidding, like lambing is wonderful, joyful, stressful and will make ya nuts... but at the end of the matter, like your sheep... you want to see the goat  alive and healthy.


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## AshleyFishy (Feb 7, 2014)

rebelINny said:


> Some come into heat year round and some seasonal. Dairy breeds such as alpine, and lamancha and so on are seasonal breeders whereas Boer, Nubian, Nigerian and I do believe Pygmy are all year round breeders.



Nubians are seasonal breeders.


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## rebelINny (Feb 7, 2014)

I think personally I was give them lute to abort. I have never ever done that but if it was me I would most definitely do it. By the end of "kidding" you may not have any does or kids left.


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## autumnprairie (Feb 7, 2014)

Good luck and hope all is well with the kiddings. Keep us posted


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## LoneOakGoats (Feb 7, 2014)

There is no doubt, no way I would chance it.  Speaking from experience, it is horrible to lose the mom and her babies. Never, ever want to go through that again.  Our buck is tiny, I can't imagine how your pygmy doe could manage.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 7, 2014)

LoneOakGoats said:


> There is no doubt, no way I would chance it.  Speaking from experience, it is horrible to lose the mom and her babies. Never, ever want to go through that again.


    Still breaks my heart LOG


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 7, 2014)

There is no more helpless feeling than laying on your belly in the barn, hand inside a doe and feeling a head that you KNOW will  never, ever make it out of that opening.  You also know that even IF you can find a vet in the middle of the night, and even IF he will come out for a goat and do a C-section, that you are very, very likely to lose all the babies and the mother. 

IF you've gotten mom there in time and IF he's a good vet you might get babies and save mom.  IF not you're paying 3 or 4 hundred dollars just to try and save a doe that may never breed again.  Even if you get to take the mother and the babies home, the babies may die because they were under so much stress for so long... mother's  milk probably won't come in because of the stress.  If the babies are alive you probably will need to tube feed because they aren't strong enough to nurse.   Mom won't let the babies nurse anyway because of the pain.  She won't eat, she has no interest in the babies or anything else.  In a couple of days you're exhausted, the doe dies and what have you gotten out of this experience?  Nothing but heartache...   Been there, done that. 

When I first got into pygmies - this was what I have personally gone through with a pygmy to pygmy breedings.  I am terrified for these 4 does being bred to a Boer.

However, I am not their owner and can't make this decision for them. Our animals depend on us to make decisions that are for their well-being.  Maybe they will be ok.  I would never take that chance.  I will say that it is much less stress on doe and owner to abort these pregnancies and live to fight another day. 

Just trying to save some heartache here... Good luck in whatever decision you make.


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 7, 2014)

So sorry for your loss @frustratedearthmother and @LoneOakGoats


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## lungewhipqueen (Feb 12, 2014)

Here's a question... once a doe has kidded, how soon can she be expected to come into season again? I mean... with horses, the mare will be ready to breed again within just a few days of giving birth. What's the standard time for does? (I ask because I DO NOT want my does bred back until this fall!

edited to add...
The question is regarding year round breeders.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 12, 2014)

ours come into heat again usually in about 3 weeks


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## lungewhipqueen (Feb 12, 2014)

Thank you. Guess I better get my buck moved! LOL!


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 10, 2014)

I had a small Pygmy doe who accidentally got bred bred to a Saanen buck. I lost both momma and kid. When we raised beef cattle we had some registered Angus (moderate framed) cows and we decided to go with a huge Santa Gertrudis bull as our cross. BIG mistake! We lost a cow during calving and had another prolapse just after calving. Nine times out of ten, you want to breed a large breed female to the smaller breed of male. A friend breeds draft mules and he always breeds the male donkey (jack) to the big draft mare and never the other way around. I would get them the Lute injection if your vet says it is indicated. Your first time mommas, if they successfully carry to term and deliver without complication stand a great chance of prolapse or even infertility later on. I have seen this situation in many species of farm animal and 8 out of 10 times I have witnessed disaster.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news and who knows, things may go just fine but the odds are against you. Prayers for you though. God Bless.


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