# *!!!BLM Plans to Sterilize All Wild Horses in 2 HMA in Wyoming!!!*



## TigerLily Trail Ranch (Jun 22, 2011)

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/6931/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=7277

Just got this e-mailed to me. Title says it all. Please click the link, scroll down, & send the letter to oppose this horrible act! If your anti-mustang please keep your comments to yourself & dont get this thread locked!!!

BTW to those that dont know _HMA_ stands for "Herd Management Area"


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## BlondeSheep (Jun 23, 2011)

Good afternoon friend. Can you explain to me why this plan is detrimental to the feral horses? From my understanding of the article, it is only going to be implemented in two areas, and there are other areas in the United States inhabited by feral horses who will not be gelded or spayed. Since these animals are non-natives, I don't understand why this new plan is offensive to mustang enthusiasts. I am just trying to expand my knowledge, not start a fight, so I hope this question is taken in the correct way. Thank you!


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## carolinagirl (Jun 23, 2011)

I was wondering the same thing. Many of these horses ended up for sale to the public or otherwise culled because there are too many in some areas, so I really wonder why limiting the breeding population is such a bad thing?  Maybe the remaining herd could remain free if their numbers are controlled.  It's only a couple of areas, not the entire wild herd.


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## patandchickens (Jun 23, 2011)

Yeah but there is this whole huge can of worms where some people do not want Thing One done to mustang or feral horse herds. 

Go look at how the same thread's going on BYC.

Personally I think it's a quite reasonable pilot program to try, would have to see how the results vs costs turn out.

JMHO, 

Pat


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## carolinagirl (Jun 23, 2011)

I wonder if just giving the stallions a vasectomy would be enough to solve the problem?  Not gelding him....just snip snip.  They'd would still act like stallions, they just be sterile.  Seems like spaying a mare would be terribly invasive though.  And gelding a stallion would change his whole attitude and could bring about chaos in the wild herd. I know of some Anatolian shepherd breeders/owners that choose vasectomy over neutering so the dog retains the characteristics they want in the dog.

I read through the thread at BYC....pretty ugly.  I can see both sides having valid points.


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## elevan (Jun 23, 2011)

I personally don't have an opinion one way or the other.

BUT - those mustangs are NOT a native species.  They are introduced.

I've read through both feeds on BYH and BYC...the other thread is very, shall we say "provoking".

I will say that if the OP didn't want a debate on the subject, then maybe they shouldn't have posted the thread.  A debate can be done without attacking the other side.

Carry on...


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## rockdoveranch (Jun 23, 2011)

Can someone please post the link to this subject that is on BYC.  I could not find it.  Do I have to be a member to see it?

Thanks.


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## TigerLily Trail Ranch (Jun 23, 2011)

I didnt realize so many people felt negatively about this topic. Im going to ask to have it removed but I think its rather childish that everyone wants to flock to the BYC post to see what kinda trouble happened there. How disappointing


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## rockdoveranch (Jun 23, 2011)

~*Save the Mustangs*~ said:
			
		

> I didnt realize so many people felt negatively about this topic. Im going to ask to have it removed but I think its rather childish that everyone wants to flock to the BYC post to see what kinda trouble happened there. How disappointing


*"I think its rather childish that everyone wants to flock to the BYC post to see what kinda trouble happened there."*

If you are referring to my post, I was unaware that that "trouble happened there" on BYCs.  There were not many posts here so I simply wanted to see what others had to say.


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## carolinagirl (Jun 23, 2011)

~*Save the Mustangs*~ said:
			
		

> I didnt realize so many people felt negatively about this topic. Im going to ask to have it removed but I think its rather childish that everyone wants to flock to the BYC post to see what kinda trouble happened there. How disappointing


you are blowing this way out of proportion.  "flocking" there to see what happened is not a bad thing.  We are childish because we ant to see all sides and not just yours???  What's wrong with that?


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## herfrds (Jun 23, 2011)

Looking at both sides should be done, but when someone decides they are an expert on an issue they are no where near and would rather argue what those against it post instead of reading the info provided by those affected shows they do not want to listen.

Yeah I'm the troublemaker.


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## elevan (Jun 23, 2011)

I believe that the post on BYC has been deleted...it comes up as "Bad request. The link you followed is incorrect or outdated." when I refresh the page there...

herfrds- I thought you made some valid points for your side of the table.

When I said that I don't have an opinion one way or the other it is simply because it doesn't directly affect me and I have not seen first hand one side or the other.  As we've all seen in topics of herd management you'll get 100 different answers when you ask 100 different people.  

To me the "mustangs" are just another type of herd...they are on public land and the BLM is responsible for that land.  Those are the facts that I know...everything else that I hear is conjecture because I haven't seen any of it for myself...I don't form opinions on conjecture.

To the OP - Save the Mustangs - You started a thread that you knew was a hot topic with very different sides.  I know that you meant well and were looking for support.  Even though you asked for people who don't believe as you not to read or post that really isn't realistic...it's a public forum.  I know your heart is in the right place but debate on the subject is GOOD EVEN FOR YOUR SIDE OF THE TABLE.  How can you expect to have people look closer at what you are trying to say if you don't allow the opposition to have their say?  I think asking for this thread to be closed would be wrong...I also think that people can debate the subject in a civilized manner.

That's my 2cents.


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## TigerLily Trail Ranch (Jun 23, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> To me the "mustangs" are just another type of herd...they are on public land and the BLM is responsible for that land.  Those are the facts that I know...everything else that I hear is conjecture because I haven't seen any of it for myself...I don't form opinions on conjecture.
> 
> To the OP - Save the Mustangs - You started a thread that you knew was a hot topic with very different sides.  I know that you meant well and were looking for support.  Even though you asked for people who don't believe as you not to read or post that really isn't realistic...it's a public forum.  I know your heart is in the right place but debate on the subject is GOOD EVEN FOR YOUR SIDE OF THE TABLE.  How can you expect to have people look closer at what you are trying to say if you don't allow the opposition to have their say?  I think asking for this thread to be closed would be wrong...I also think that people can debate the subject in a civilized manner.
> 
> That's my 2cents.


I would go into detail about the difference between wild & feral horses & the genetics involved but that would require posting links to sites that are most likely not allowed on here.

I understand this is a public forum but what im saying is that if you dont like what someone has to say dont post it or PM about it out of respect for not just me but any OP really. No one makes you post what you type.

Its not that I dont want people to not state their opinion but I do not want the topic to get over heated. Like you say people can debate civilly but most decide to get really rude about it & start insulting each other. The point of starting this thread was: to alert folks who are pro mustang so they can send their message. Not open a wide debate & get off the original topic. 

Im asking this thread be closed so that things do not get too out of hand & so I dont get a strike on my account. After looking back this can be considered trolling -_- . Actually I think a civil debate would be a great idea to educate people who arent familiar with this topic but its not allowed & honestly I woudnt listen cuz my opinions about the horses is firm, but for those that dont know to much about it its a great idea. Maybe there is a forum somewhere where this debate can be opened.


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## patandchickens (Jun 24, 2011)

Any legitimate information on wild horse genetics should be able to be supplied by posting unobjectionable links. For instance to scientific research papers/summaries. There is no problem with doing that here.

I agree with you that it is good to discuss this. You seem to be avoiding allowing that to happen, though, by declining to post liniks to information that would back up your most crucial claims, and by wanting to shut down the thread for some reason.

I hope that you will reconsider.

P.s. just b/c a person thinks that a trial balloon of sterilization in two HMAs would be a good experiment to try does not BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION make them "anti-mustang". At all. Goodness.

Pat


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## carolinagirl (Jun 24, 2011)

~*Save the Mustangs*~ said:
			
		

> Im asking this thread be closed so that things do not get too out of hand & so I dont get a strike on my account. After looking back this can be considered trolling -_- . Actually I think a civil debate would be a great idea to educate people who arent familiar with this topic but its not allowed & honestly I woudnt listen cuz my opinions about the horses is firm, but for those that dont know to much about it its a great idea. Maybe there is a forum somewhere where this debate can be opened.


But see the thing is, you don't want a civil debate.  You want everyone to agree with you and that's not going to happen on ANY forum you post this one.  as soon as the first person said anything even slightly against your stance, you called us all childish for wanting to read what was said on the other site.  Name calling is really not the best way for you to make a point, don't you agree?  When people are attacked, they tend to not want to listen too well.  

The point is, that even though mustangs have been wild in this country for many years, they are NOT a native species.  The only true native horse that lived in the united states was Equus francisci, the "stilt legged horse" and it died out over 10,000 years ago.  The mustangs are descendants of horses brought here by the Spaniards in 1493.  so yes, they have been here a long time and are part of the history the American West, but they are NOT a native species.  Out-of-control breeding of ANY non-native species can be detrimental to the environment.  No one is proposing rounding them all up and shooting them, just controlling the birth rate in a few regions.  I see no harm in that.

I am sure that opinion does not sit well with you since you have already stated you don't want to listen to opposing views, that I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are.  Sorry..that's just the way it works.


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 24, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> I wonder if just giving the stallions a vasectomy would be enough to solve the problem?  Not gelding him....just snip snip.  They'd would still act like stallions, they just be sterile.  Seems like spaying a mare would be terribly invasive though.  And gelding a stallion would change his whole attitude and could bring about chaos in the wild herd. I know of some Anatolian shepherd breeders/owners that choose vasectomy over neutering so the dog retains the characteristics they want in the dog.
> 
> I read through the thread at BYC....pretty ugly.  I can see both sides having valid points.


I have heard that letting a gelding that "acts like a stallion" (mounting) run with mares is not a good idea because infections can occur in the mare.  Breeders wash stallions genitals before breeding mares.  Have you ever seen a horse penis that has not been cleaned?  All the skin cells that are shed accumulate inside the sheath and the penis will get very gunky over time.  If the stallions are only snipped they will not be able to settle the mares and will be breeding all the time.  Very taxing on any stallion.  Not to mention all the fighting to keep other stallions from stealing the mares.  Has anyone kept tabs on the Cloud Foundation mustangs?  The last show I saw mentioned that predators are killing almost all the new foals.  They also mentioned a shot that had been given to some of the mares that kept them from getting pregnant for at least 5 years.  I am sure that rounding up horses to give them a shot is very expensive but that is better than sterilizing them permanently.  Just my 2  cents.


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## patandchickens (Jun 24, 2011)

treeclimber233 said:
			
		

> carolinagirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes but in wild horses how is that any different than what actual fertile stallions experience? It's not like they have anyone cleaning THEIR personal bits before covering a mare EITHER 



> Not to mention all the fighting to keep other stallions from stealing the mares


Again, how is this different when they are fertile vs vasectomised? I don't see the difference.



> If the stallions are only snipped they will not be able to settle the mares and will be breeding all the time.  Very taxing on any stallion.


It is not like there is no downside at all... though I would say that by _far_ the biggest downside would be the expense (for humans) and the stress of being rounded up and surgically neutered (for the horses).  The question though is how do the pros and cons balance out. You got to look at BOTH sides of the equation.

Pat


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## carolinagirl (Jun 24, 2011)

I see this as maybe taxing on the poor stallion that try as he might, he can't impregnate a mare, but think of all the mares who will no longer be taxed by having to carry a foal every year.


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## rockdoveranch (Jun 24, 2011)

I decided to remove my post.


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## mydakota (Jun 24, 2011)

~*Save the Mustangs*~ said:
			
		

> I woudnt listen cuz my opinions about the horses is firm, but for those that dont know to much about it its a great idea. Maybe there is a forum somewhere where this debate can be opened.


Do you see that that is the very definition of a closed mind? Goodness. 

I am NOT anti-mustang. I sincerely hope that there are ALWAYS free roaming herds in the West.  My best friend and riding buddy has two that are adopted from Nevada.  They are good horses and she loves them.  But the range has to be managed for ALL the animals that live there.  There is only so much grass/water.  They can't be unmanaged. It would be to the detriment of the other residents of the range.  I live in a mustang state. I would say that the Oregon herds are some of the highest quality wild horses in existence. The BLM here does a wonderful job. (have no first hand knowledge of other states)  When they do a gather? The very BEST horses get turned back out on the range.  As a result, we have some very nice wild horses here.  The Kiger's are here and I have walked out where they are and seen them wild  in person.  Very beautiful horses.  South Steens and Beatty's Butte and Stinkingwater and Jackie's Butte HMA's all have very nice horses.  I am definitely NOT anti-mustang.  But I know how it is with resources on the range.  They must be managed.  The pronghorn count too.  The Mule Deer count too. The sheep and goats and yes, even the cattle--all count too. Mixed use means shared resources.   It has to.


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## herfrds (Jun 24, 2011)

Going to cause trouble again.

I do not always agree with this magazine, but they do cover alot of issues from the other side of the fence so to speak and the mustang issue has been a hot topic.

Go check them out and go looking through the back issues they have at the bottom. The stories about what is going on are done by those folks having to deal with this mess 24/7 and not someone who shows up only when they want to.

www.rangemagazine.com

Check out Why Tell The Truth? by Hank Vogler in the current edition.


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## rockdoveranch (Jun 25, 2011)

OP, 

How much of our hard earned money that goes to pay federal taxes is spent yearly to manage these horses?

Thanks.


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## herfrds (Jun 26, 2011)

Try this link
http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/wild_horse_and_burro/wh_b_information_center/Fact_Sheet.html


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## rodeogal (Jun 30, 2011)

The horses are NOT going to be gelded or spayed well NOT all of them.  The blm is trying to do somethingg that will benfit BOTH sides.  The side that manage the horses, and the side that hates the blm.  Once the horses are gelded and spayed they will NOT have to be gathered ,because they will be a NON producing herd.  They will life there forever.  BUT to the ones that don't want this, seem to think that the blm is doing this to wipe out the horses, BUT in fact they are not.  They are trying to better it for the horses.  A non producing herd will NOT have to be gathered because of the numbers, so the range will be able to sustain them.
By them NOT be gathered saves the tax payers the money.  So no gathers means the tax payers don't ahve to spend that money on gathers.


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## Horsiezz (Aug 22, 2011)

I love the wild Mustangs and some of the things I have seen the BLM do to them is just horribly wrong. After watching some videos on Youtube anyone with a heart should notice that some things they do is just not necessary. Like chasing after mares & their foals for miles & miles while a little foal, just weeks old, struggles to keep up with his mother at a full run on weak- not fully devoloped legs. After there caught and its over with there exhausted and struggling to stay on their feet, their legs in pain and having a constant limp. Its wrong. So maybe this will be a good thing and not as many foals will have to suffer. This won't extinct the mustangs, just keep their breeding under control. I love the mustangs because they are apart of America's histroy so I think America needs to preserve them and not make them suffer. I think this is a good thing, maybe after sterilizing a few herds they will just leave them alone and let them live their lives and end the suffering the BLM makes them endure. Just because I'm saying this doesn't mean I'm against the Mustangs. We just all have different opinions and we must respect that and not quarrel like children.


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## Lalaith (Sep 6, 2011)

It is incredibly important to maintain the herd health of the population of wild mustangs in the US.  They are lovely animals and a rich part of the cultural history of the country.  However, allowing numbers to exceed the carrying capacity of the area they inhabit is dangerous in the extreme.  Not only will this lead to suffering in the form of emaciated horses, increased disease and parasite pressure, and injury due to overcrowding of territories, but it will also seriously compromise the ability of that area of land to hold any wildlife at all.  Population control of a group of these horses is an excellent way to prevent problems like these and to ensure that there is ample grazing land for mustangs in the future.

Sterilization campaigns are a perfect way to ensure that horses do not end up having to be euthanized because their sheer numbers have made their existence untenable.  I am a horse lover and a fan of mustangs and I fully support judicious use of herd management to increase and maintain the health of the animals and of the land they call home.


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## mydakota (Sep 6, 2011)

Lalaith said:
			
		

> It is incredibly important to maintain the herd health of the population of wild mustangs in the US.  They are lovely animals and a rich part of the cultural history of the country.  However, allowing numbers to exceed the carrying capacity of the area they inhabit is dangerous in the extreme.  Not only will this lead to suffering in the form of emaciated horses, increased disease and parasite pressure, and injury due to overcrowding of territories, but it will also seriously compromise the ability of that area of land to hold any wildlife at all.  Population control of a group of these horses is an excellent way to prevent problems like these and to ensure that there is ample grazing land for mustangs in the future.
> 
> Sterilization campaigns are a perfect way to ensure that horses do not end up having to be euthanized because their sheer numbers have made their existence untenable.  I am a horse lover and a fan of mustangs and I fully support judicious use of herd management to increase and maintain the health of the animals and of the land they call home.


X2.  Very well put.


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