# A look at herds / living post disaster (What are your thoughts?)



## elevan

_Someone started this over on BYC...it's been and interesting read but most of the posters are only familiar with chickens and the picks for other animals seem a little "out there" at times._

So I thought that this forum here at BYH would be able to provide an educational look at what animals and items you would want to have if the world as we know it suddenly changed and we had to fend for ourselves without outside support.

This is purely hypothetical (I don't believe the world is ending tomorrow or anything)...just looking for some different views of life in an off the grid situation.

*1. What animals would you choose? Be breed specific and why?
2. What veggies / fruits / herbs would you grow?
3. What supplies would you feel you couldn't live without?*

Feel free to give different scenarios based on the type of disaster that you think we might face...(the reason we go off grid)...


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## elevan

My thoughts...

Chickens - a good dual purpose breed like buckeyes...which are also very good foragers...providing eggs, meat and feathers.
Yak - able to ride, plow, pull, eat and use fiber...very good at utilizing a larger variety of plants for food.
Pygmy or Nigerian Dwarf goats - milk, meat and hide...a small footprint and able to utilize a smaller area of land at a time
Pot Belly pig - they are small, require less food and can be stored on the hoof...a smaller amount of meat means less chance of rot...since we wouldn't have refrigeration...
Rabbits - meat and hide / fur...they could be fed grass...

I also have a pond...so stocked with fish...it also provides good food source and lots of frogs there too...

Veggies for me would be corn, zucchini, tomatoes, acorn squash...as they all grow easily with out disease or pest problems for me already.

Fruit...I have apple, peach, cherry and plum trees already.

I also have a honey locust tree which has edible pods and seeds...it's thorns can be used to make blow darts and nails.

We have black walnut trees and hickory nut trees too.

I have a small pond that is loaded with cattails...good for eating too...different parts for different times of year.

I think a greenhouse would be important for growing in the winter months here.

A gun of course for protection and hunting...but perhaps a bow would be better because arrows would be easier to reuse and bullets may become difficult to find.

Tools...hammer, hand saw, shovel, hoe, scythe

Canning jars and lids.

9-volt batteries and steel wool (easy firestarter)

A hand pump for the well...

A good book on medicinal plants as well as an edible plant field guide would be important.


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> _Someone started this over on BYC...it's been and interesting read but most of the posters are only familiar with chickens and the picks for other animals seem a little "out there" at times._
> 
> So I thought that this forum here at BYH would be able to provide an educational look at what animals and items you would want to have if the world as we know it suddenly changed and we had to fend for ourselves without outside support.
> 
> This is purely hypothetical (I don't believe the world is ending tomorrow or anything)...just looking for some different views of life in an off the grid situation.
> 
> *1. What animals would you choose? Be breed specific and why?
> 2. What veggies / fruits would you grow?
> 3. What supplies would you feel you couldn't live without?*
> 
> Feel free to give different scenarios based on the type of disaster that you think we might face...(the reason we go off grid)...


Good thread Emily!

Okay:
*1)*
Chickens:
Wyandottes- decent producers of eggs and the males(like my Sour) bulk up on air.
Black Giants- dual purpose birds.
Black Australorps- heavy producers of large eggs(holds the record for # of eggs/yr)

Goats:
Mixed breeds- Nigerian, Boer or Kiko, Lamancha or Alpine, and Pygmy:
I want smaller sized goats that are multi purposed for dairy, land clearing, and meat.

I live near rivers, lakes, and close enough to the ocean for fishing access/availability.

Rabbits- Any bulky breed. Why? Two words: Complete Protein.

Deer- venison & skin is a MUST have!  I can either raise them or hunt them and their cousins(Moose) without leaving my property.

Turkey- easily hunted on my own property.

Horse/horses- for riding, labor, and if it came down to it(last resort), food.

Alpaca and/or Angora goats- for their fiber to spin.

Black Bear- hunting, not owning... obviously. For skin & meat. (bear sausage is REALLY good!!)

*2)* 
Cherry, peach, nectarine, pear, apricot, and apple trees for canning, freezing over winter, candying, and dehydrating.

Strawberries, blackberries, raspberries, watermelon, cantaloupe, blueberries, and grapes.

Shagbark Hickory(Maple Nut) trees all around our property in southern NH.

Carrots, butternut squash, zucchini, summer squash, cabbage, bell peppers, tomatoes, potatoes, garlic, onions, beans, peas, eggplant, radish, turnip, brussels sprouts, lettuce, spinach, cucumbers, pumpkin, acorn squash, peanuts, and sunflowers.

you didn't mention herbs, but I have to say that mullein is/would be a MUST have/grow medicinal.

*3)*
Shotgun/rifle, appropriate ammo, bb gun, necessary animal processing items, canning supplies, batteries(like yacht & larger), woodstove, ax, fishing supplies, a still(for medicinal tinctures), sewing/knitting/crocheting supplies, and (like you mentioned) a greenhouse/hot house for growing overwinter.

Thankfully, we live on a property that has an old springhouse foundation(needs some repair to the east wall), so we would never be without refrigeration, and winters are cold enough that food would stay frozen packed into snow banks.

Did you ever watch Jericho on CBS? I'm gonna go with something along those lines as far as the reason why were go off the grid.


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## elevan

I was beginning to wonder if maybe this thread was gonna be a dud...thanks for responding Livinwright!

Question for you:


			
				Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> you didn't mention herbs, but I have to say that mullein is/would be a MUST have/grow medicinal.


What is Mullein?


eta: I edited original post to add herbs


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> I was beginning to wonder if maybe this thread was gonna be a dud...thanks for responding Livinwright!
> 
> Question for you:
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you didn't mention herbs, but I have to say that mullein is/would be a MUST have/grow medicinal.
> 
> 
> 
> What is Mullein?
> 
> 
> eta: I edited original post to add herbs
Click to expand...

Any time Emily! 

Here is an image of it.
http://www.davidphotoart.org/images/recent/mullein.jpg

And a link for one page(if you google it, you will find pages and pages about it): http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_mullein.htm


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was beginning to wonder if maybe this thread was gonna be a dud...thanks for responding Livinwright!
> 
> Question for you:
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you didn't mention herbs, but I have to say that mullein is/would be a MUST have/grow medicinal.
> 
> 
> 
> What is Mullein?
> 
> 
> eta: I edited original post to add herbs
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any time Emily!
> 
> Here is an image of it.
> http://www.davidphotoart.org/images/recent/mullein.jpg
> 
> And a link for one page(if you google it, you will find pages and pages about it): http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_mullein.htm
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff.  Thanks for the info.


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## patandchickens

Poultry:

Any reasonably-meaty-dual-purpose chicken breed (certain lines of rocks or wyandottes, or chanteclers, or even my sussexes are generally decent in that regard -- NOT jersey giants however which require WAY WAY too much feed to reach their size)

If the above breed does not tend reasonably strongly towards broodiness in your particular line, also keep a small flock of something very broody (silkies or any of a number of other options), preferably small-bodied.

Arguably also something small-bodied that lays well (leghorns, etc) -- I do not know as everyone would want to be maintaining full-sized breeding flocks of all three of these chicken types, but you'd want them to be around and available to you.

Also arguably a good meat-type turkey, Beltsville Small Whites would be my suggestion of the ones I've grown myself.

Of the above list, I would probably stick with my sussexes plus something small-foragey-and-high-laying; adding turkeys in the fullness of time if it seemed feasible. (I have them now, but they do eat a lot over winter...)

Hoofstock:

Cattle. Absolutely without question can't do without (unless you are on VERY thin-grazing land in which case might have to punt to goats or sheep, but they have many disadvantages) because not only do they provide meat and milk and good hide, they provide LABOR in the form of training oxen.

If you think you can protect them from predators, I'd say also sheep (for the wool as much as for the meat) if you have grassy or weedy circumstances, or goats if it is more forested/brushy -- but lacking modern conveniences of heavy wire fencing, electric fencing, and unlimited ammunition, in a lot of areas I think you could easily lose most or all of your sheep/goats in the first few years. Even *with* a LGD, if you don't also have the ability to keep your fencing in reasonable repair.

Hogs, not necessarily for everybody but you'd want them available to them as can keep them fed. Smaller breeds, possibly *fattier* breeds as you might be really WANTING that oil not just for cooking but for other purposes as well.

Horses would be nice but IMO optional as long as you have oxen.

Of the above options, personally on this property I'd want a couple cattle (including a milk cow but NOT including a bull, that is what neighbors are for LOL) and would keep the sheep at least until I ran out of them due to coyotes. Too wet for hogs, and the horses would be nonuseful here and have to go, alas.

Veggies and fruits thing is too big a ball o' wax to go into in this post, save to observe that the most productive store-a-long-time things I could grow around here are tomatoes, potatoes, greenbeans, and winter squash; also apples but those would have to mainly come from neighbors as we only have 3 trees and they are still pretty young/small. Obviuosly this is not ALL one would grow, but I think it would be the backbone of our diet during the non growing season, plant-food-wise.

JMHO,

Pat


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## Melissa'sDreamFarm

This is the reason I got animals. Not that I think that the world's going to end, but what if there were interruption in government? Hostile take overs, electricity shortages, gas shortages and such? As a mom, it is my responsibility to provide for my family. 

1. Nigerian Dwarf or mini-mixed goats. Smaller sized so no need to refrigerate the meat. Cycle all year, so I could breed to eat and milk. 

2. Plymouth Rock Chickens. Right now I have barred and blue rocks. They are a good dual purpose bird. I think Wyanedottes are more "useful", but I have not found the ones I would want to breed temperament wise yet. I'm still looking. 

3. Raised beds. My tiller will eventually run out of gas and I want to save the gas for the chainsaw. The longer I can put off chopping trees by hand the better. I can amend soil in the beds and plant my heirloom veggies. I have the knowledge to save seeds, this is important. Even if you don't want to bother with saving the seeds, at least have the knowledge. 

4. Books, how to books, planting guides, animal husbandry books, medical emergency books, herbal cures, how to recognize herbs kind of book. I have a few already and am always looking at the used book store for more. 

5. Seeds, squash of any kind grows well here, tomatoes, peppers, cilantro, garlic, onions, basil, dill. These are the things I remember right now. I know I have more, but these things mentioned I can save the seed to replant. 

6. Ammo. This is a sore spot with me. I do not have a gun in the house out of fear that my son who is 8 will try to play with it. I do own a gun, it's just not here. I also have a supply of ammo for my gun. I need to consider a bow and arrow, or at least a book on how to make one. 

7. Utensils. I have a collection of knives for processing meat. I have a nice collection of cast iron pots and pans. I also have a hand made fire pit. It's a luxury now, but can be utilized to cook on. I also have several trees cut and curing out. I have a nice collection of salt, pepper, and baking soda. It does not go bad, so I add to my collection all the time. Rope, rope, and more rope. 

8. Soap, I know I could make my own (I have a book for it, lol) but I can use my soap for as long as it lasts. It doesn't go bad. I have a stock pile. 

9. Access to water. I have 4 wells on my property. One is an old "open" well. We also have 6 ponds around my house and a small stream only 1/4 mile from my house. 

I do have two horses for transportation and plowing. They are both geldings and I don't know if I could overwinter them safely. If it does get bad. It's not what you have, but how are you going to keep it (protect) and you or your family still be alive. If you have something, eventually someone will find you and want to take it from you. At this point in my life, I don't think I could kill someone. But faced with a life or death situation, I don't know what I'm capable of. Unfortunately, they don't make a book for that. It's nice to plan I have, but I just don't know how long I can hold onto it.

ETA:
10. I have 3 pear trees, 2 plum, and 2 apple. I know how to dry apple and will be experimenting with plum this year. 

Need a resource on canning/preserving the "old fashioned" way. I can pickle, but how is vinegar made? I guess I would need grapes.


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## freemotion

Skills are the most important thing to have.  Theoretical knowledge is better than nothing....but not by much!  A lot is left out of books and articles.  

Focus on any food source that reproduces....chickens that go broody (forget what the catalogs say, many modern breeds just won't go broody), and as was said, heirloom veggies that seeds can be saved from.

Know what you can forage in your area and how to prepare it.

Know what your property can grow and how to store it.  Do so now, even on a small scale.  Growing food is a learned skill and I sure was surprised a few years ago when I started that it is not as simple as sticking seeds in the ground and watering and weeding.  You need to know a lot of details....spacing, timing, planting depth, etc, for each type of plant.

Practice storage and preservation methods that do not need electricity.

If you expect to keep grains in your diet, know how to grow them, store them, and prepare them.  Know proper preparation methods to avoid deficiencies that come from a high-grain diet when the grains are not properly prepared.

Know how to kill, clean, and preserve your choice of meat animals.

Know a LOT about nutrition so you can stay healthy without medical care.  A fully self-sufficient life can be very, very healthy nutritionally.  Get a copy of Nourishing Traditions if you don't already have one.


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was beginning to wonder if maybe this thread was gonna be a dud...thanks for responding Livinwright!
> 
> Question for you:
> 
> What is Mullein?
> 
> 
> eta: I edited original post to add herbs
> 
> 
> 
> Any time Emily!
> 
> Here is an image of it.
> http://www.davidphotoart.org/images/recent/mullein.jpg
> 
> And a link for one page(if you google it, you will find pages and pages about it): http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_mullein.htm
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting stuff.  Thanks for the info.
Click to expand...

You're welcome! 
Oh, and I forgot to add harvesting cat tails for grinding their dried roots into flour.  & Juniper berries as a coffee substitute.


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## Livinwright Farm

patandchickens said:
			
		

> NOT jersey giants however which require WAY WAY too much feed to reach their size)


My JG's thrive on a mix of foods: 
(the below amounts are per chicken per day)

1 cup of layer feed
1 cup BOSS
1 cup scratch grain
a multitude of bugs, worms, frogs, salamanders, etc. in the backyard
produce scraps(any & all)

And have been growing beautifully.


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## patandchickens

Yes but you could raise _more_ meat weight on that amount of feed with a number of other breeds.

Pat


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## redtailgal

..............


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## Livinwright Farm

I think I forgot to mention pigs, and enough of them to cook, smoke, & cure.... remember how in the good old days Salt Pork was an every day staple?  and BACON is a MUST HAVE item in this house!
redtailgal: ditto on having a Bible!


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## elevan

Thank you to everyone for participating.  As I said before I think this is a great education / theoretical thread and you've all provided some interesting thoughts. 

I just want to comment on a few items that stick out for me and ask for clarification on some of them.



			
				patandchickens said:
			
		

> Cattle. Absolutely without question can't do without (unless you are on VERY thin-grazing land in which case might have to punt to goats or sheep, but they have many disadvantages) because not only do they provide meat and milk and good hide, they provide LABOR in the form of training oxen.
> `````````````````````````````````
> I'd want a couple cattle (including a milk cow but NOT including a bull, that is what neighbors are for LOL)


Any particular breed of cattle that you think would be best?
So, your cattle "supply" would be dependent on working together with your neighbors?  Not nitpicking, just asking.
I think some sort of community with your neighbors will be important...if you can trust them.




			
				Melissa'sDreamFarm said:
			
		

> This is the reason I got animals. Not that I think that the world's going to end, but what if there were interruption in government? Hostile take overs, electricity shortages, gas shortages and such? As a mom, it is my responsibility to provide for my family.


We may be heading for that gas shortage quicker than we think...although not so much a shortage as a "who can afford the price" type of thing...


> 1. Nigerian Dwarf or mini-mixed goats. Smaller sized so no need to refrigerate the meat


I'm guessing you're saying that your family is large enough to eat the whole goat in one sitting?  Or how would you plan to preserve part of the goat?  Drying, Salting, Smoking or...


> 4. Books, how to books, planting guides, animal husbandry books, medical emergency books, herbal cures, how to recognize herbs kind of book. I have a few already and am always looking at the used book store for more.


I completely agree!  A decent amount of reference material should be accessible because some things may not need to be done very often and some steps may be easily forgotten.  Medical emergency books will be very handy too.


> 6. Ammo. This is a sore spot with me. I do not have a gun in the house out of fear that my son who is 8 will try to play with it. I do own a gun, it's just not here. I also have a supply of ammo for my gun. I need to consider a bow and arrow, or at least a book on how to make one.


My gun is in a closet on top of the highest shelf at the very back.  Not very accessible and well above my head.  So I have no fear of my boys getting to it, but it's in the house where I need it to be.  Ammo kept separately but nearby.  Never kept loaded.


> 7. Utensils. I have a collection of knives for processing meat. I have a nice collection of cast iron pots and pans. I also have a hand made fire pit. It's a luxury now, but can be utilized to cook on. I also have several trees cut and curing out. I have a nice collection of salt, pepper, and baking soda. It does not go bad, so I add to my collection all the time. Rope, rope, and more rope.


I had completely forgot about rope.  Salt is also a must for preserving and flavor.



			
				freemotion said:
			
		

> *Skills are the most important thing to have.*  Theoretical knowledge is better than nothing....but not by much!  A lot is left out of books and articles.
> 
> Focus on any food source that reproduces....
> 
> Know what you can forage in your area and how to prepare it.
> 
> Know what your property can grow and how to store it.  Do so now, even on a small scale.  Growing food is a learned skill a
> 
> *Practice storage and preservation methods that do not need electricity.*
> 
> Know how to kill, clean, and preserve your choice of meat animals.
> 
> Know a LOT about nutrition so you can stay healthy without medical care.


All very good advice Free!



			
				redtailgal said:
			
		

> Hubby and I have talked about this for years. lol.  My mom, two brothers, two sisters, and their spouses and children have already told me that they would be coming to live with us. lol
> 
> 
> 1. What animals would you choose? Be breed specific and why?
> 
> `````````````````````````
> I would probaly have a couple horses, If I got to choose my horses, I would go with an amish raised warmblood of some type.  They have the muscle and stamina to work, the personality that I like, and a metabolism that makes good use of feed.
> 
> I would try to find someone near me to co-op a stallion.
> ``````````````````````````
> 2. What veggies / fruits / herbs would you grow?
> 
> We already have grapes, figs, *crabapples*, persimmons, blackberries, ``````````````````````
> I also have a huge stand of daylilies.  The buds are edible and can be canned by waterbath. They taste like green beans.
> 
> 3. What supplies would you feel you couldn't live without?
> 
> My woodstove. (we get a second one if possible for cooking outside in the summer)
> 
> `````````````````````
> horse drawn equipment for haymaking, and general gardening.
> ( dont already have this, but would get this with the horses)
> ```````````
> chalkboard and chalk to use in educating children.


Good idea, we could all look to the Amish for ideas (both livestock and domestic) as they already live off the grid in a modern world.

Crabapples are often overlooked - I have a tree of them too.  And I had no idea that daylilly buds were edible.

A wood stove or fireplace or firepit would be a necessity and would pull / hand equipment. Our gas powered equipment would only last until we ran out of gas and even then we'd want to use the gas for very important tasks and ration it as best we could.

I can't believe that we've forgot about education of our kids.  A chalkboard and chalk are a great addition to the list.


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## Livinwright Farm

speaking of resources... here is a link to go to and print off a recipe for cured goat or beef. 
http://italianfood.about.com/od/curedmeats/r/blr0883.htm


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## freemotion

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> patandchickens said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOT jersey giants however which require WAY WAY too much feed to reach their size)
> 
> 
> 
> My JG's thrive on a mix of foods:
> (the below amounts are per chicken per day)
> 
> 1 cup of layer feed
> 1 cup BOSS
> 1 cup scratch grain
> a multitude of bugs, worms, frogs, salamanders, etc. in the backyard
> produce scraps(any & all)
> 
> And have been growing beautifully.
Click to expand...

That is a LOT of food per bird!  I feed more like half a cup per day per bird.  Total.  Less in summer.  For large breeds of laying hens, however.  We eat the roosters.


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## Livinwright Farm

freemotion said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> patandchickens said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOT jersey giants however which require WAY WAY too much feed to reach their size)
> 
> 
> 
> My JG's thrive on a mix of foods:
> (the below amounts are per chicken per day)
> 
> 1 cup of layer feed
> 1 cup BOSS
> 1 cup scratch grain
> a multitude of bugs, worms, frogs, salamanders, etc. in the backyard
> produce scraps(any & all)
> 
> And have been growing beautifully.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is a LOT of food per bird!  I feed more like half a cup per day per bird.  Total.  Less in summer.  For large breeds of laying hens, however.  We eat the roosters.
Click to expand...

I should have stated that those are the over winter amounts of feed/grains/ seed... in summer they get much less, as they do not require the extra fat & protein contents to stay warm and comfy. In the summer I do not really measure what I toss out for them in the backyard... I take 1 chicken feeder(not sure if mine is the 7 or 10 lb) and fill it, with 26 hens & 1 rooseter, and 50-60 chicks it takes roughly 3 days to be emptied in summer....  late spring they bulk up on frogs & toads... mid summer they feast on all sorts of insects(no more ticks on the dogs!!!)... in mid to late fall I start giving them the "insulating" feed mix again.

PS: I only have 1 Black Giant hen now... we sold the roo to a farm in RI early this past winter... I tell you what though... the first roo to become dinner here, will be Sour(splash laced red wyandotte)... that sucker ir just barely a year old and he waddles when he walks... he HORKS anything you put infront of him... I would love to find out how much he weighs!   my pre-weighing guess on him is roughly 8-10lbs(live weight obviously). I plan on giving him as much as he wants to eat of HIGH protein foods to get him ready for an end of summer bbq!


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## patandchickens

elevan said:
			
		

> Any particular breed of cattle that you think would be best?


Not Holsteins LOL   



> So, your cattle "supply" would be dependent on working together with your neighbors?


Well, yes, in all _sorts_ of respects, not just bull-sharing 

There is just no way to get around it. And heck, even if you DO have the resources to waste on housing/feeding a bull 365 days a year just so it can jump yer cows once a year, what happens when/if something bad happens to that bull, or when you get too much inbreeding? You are not going to have a self-sustaining herd of just a few cattle, can't be done, going to have to involve other people at SOME point no matter HOW you slice it.

Pat


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My JG's thrive on a mix of foods:
> (the below amounts are per chicken per day)
> 
> 1 cup of layer feed
> 1 cup BOSS
> 1 cup scratch grain
> a multitude of bugs, worms, frogs, salamanders, etc. in the backyard
> produce scraps(any & all)
> 
> And have been growing beautifully.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a LOT of food per bird!  I feed more like half a cup per day per bird.  Total.  Less in summer.  For large breeds of laying hens, however.  We eat the roosters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I should have stated that those are the over winter amounts of feed/grains/ seed... in summer they get much less, as they do not require the extra fat & protein contents to stay warm and comfy. In the summer I do not really measure what I toss out for them in the backyard... I take 1 chicken feeder(not sure if mine is the 7 or 10 lb) and fill it, with 26 hens & 1 rooseter, and 50-60 chicks it takes roughly 3 days to be emptied in summer....  late spring they bulk up on frogs & toads... mid summer they feast on all sorts of insects(no more ticks on the dogs!!!)... in mid to late fall I start giving them the "insulating" feed mix again.
> 
> PS: I only have 1 Black Giant hen now... we sold the roo to a farm in RI early this past winter... I tell you what though... the first roo to become dinner here, will be Sour(splash laced red wyandotte)... that sucker ir just barely a year old and he waddles when he walks... he HORKS anything you put infront of him... I would love to find out how much he weighs!   my pre-weighing guess on him is roughly 8-10lbs(live weight obviously). I plan on giving him as much as he wants to eat of HIGH protein foods to get him ready for an end of summer bbq!
Click to expand...

It does seem a lot of feed per chicken even in winter to me...but then I try to feed "the old way" as much as possible.  Free range.  Scraps go to the pigs and the chickens.

Livinwright - A lot of what you feed seems dependent on buying from the feedmill.  What would you feed if you no longer had access to mixed or bagged feed?  Do you grow your own BOSS?  Layer feed is commercial feed...so what would you substitute?  And scratch grains is a mix of 7-10 different grains cracked and mixed...would you grow, crack and mix your own?  Or would you switch to something else?


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## elevan

patandchickens said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any particular breed of cattle that you think would be best?
> 
> 
> 
> Not Holsteins LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, your cattle "supply" would be dependent on working together with your neighbors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well, yes, in all _sorts_ of respects, not just bull-sharing
> 
> There is just no way to get around it. And heck, even if you DO have the resources to waste on housing/feeding a bull 365 days a year just so it can jump yer cows once a year, what happens when/if something bad happens to that bull, or when you get too much inbreeding? You are not going to have a self-sustaining herd of just a few cattle, can't be done, going to have to involve other people at SOME point no matter HOW you slice it.
> 
> Pat
Click to expand...

What would your reasons for not choosing Holsteins be?
So then any breed besides them would work, in your opinion?

I completely understand the bull thing, was just asking you to clarify for the other readers of the thread.

Out of curiosity, do you have an idea of what you would offer as trade for the bull's services?


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> It does seem a lot of feed per chicken even in winter to me...but then I try to feed "the old way" as much as possible.  Free range.  Scraps go to the pigs and the chickens.


Free ranging over winter in NH isn't possible... too much snow. 



> Livinwright - A lot of what you feed seems dependent on buying from the feedmill.  What would you feed if you no longer had access to mixed or bagged feed?  Do you grow your own BOSS?  Layer feed is commercial feed...so what would you substitute?  And scratch grains is a mix of 7-10 different grains cracked and mixed...would you grow, crack and mix your own?  Or would you switch to something else?


We already grow corn for the chickens and goats... we would switch to drying out and cracking, instead of feeding fresh.

Oyster or egg shell for the chickens supply of calcium.

We are growing our own BOSS this year(VERY selectively hand picking seeds out of the bag {brand that TSC carries})  So far, the test plantings that I started 6 weeks ago are 11.5" tall 

The scratch grains we get from TSC(Producers Pride) always seems to only have 2 things in it: corn and some form of micro-barley looking thing.. If I knew what that micro-barley looking thing was, I would grow that too! 
I recently found out that my flock LOVES broken up nuts... so I will feed them excess that comes from harvesting the maple nuts too... that is, if Maude LETS the chickens eat the nuts... she is a Maple Nut fanatic!

also, any "excess" goat's milk would be put out for the chickens & barn cat


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> We are growing our own BOSS this year(VERY selectively hand picking seeds out of the bag {brand that TSC carries})  So far, the test plantings that I started 6 weeks ago are 11.5" tall


Now that's something I just might have to try


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## redtailgal

..............


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## elevan

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I buy the 50 gallon sacks of BOSS for my backyard birds,  the seeds will grow readily.  Just sprinkle them somewhere that you dont want them to grow and they will take over, lol.
> 
> I had a large area that grew to maturity a couple years ago with absolutely no attention.  We didnt plant them either, the messy cardinals did that for us. I cut the heads off of the 5-6 foot plants and fed them to the chickens over the winter.
> 
> We just hang the heads over a "clothesline" made of baling twine in our corn crib.


Cool Thanks for the tips!


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## Symphony

elevan said:
			
		

> _Someone started this over on BYC...it's been and interesting read but most of the posters are only familiar with chickens and the picks for other animals seem a little "out there" at times._
> 
> So I thought that this forum here at BYH would be able to provide an educational look at what animals and items you would want to have if the world as we know it suddenly changed and we had to fend for ourselves without outside support.
> 
> This is purely hypothetical (I don't believe the world is ending tomorrow or anything)...just looking for some different views of life in an off the grid situation.
> 
> *1. What animals would you choose? Be breed specific and why?
> 2. What veggies / fruits / herbs would you grow?
> 3. What supplies would you feel you couldn't live without?*
> 
> Feel free to give different scenarios based on the type of disaster that you think we might face...(the reason we go off grid)...


Well if were talking the ideal situation, I would like a group of family and friends on a large compound for security, labor and for some social aspect.

Chickens are very popular and easy keepers for even the novice.  I would want Black Australorps and Buff Orpingtons, they make good broodies and lay well.

Pigs would be important to have around as me and my family love pork.  I think Tamworths would make a good heritage pig.

I suppose if we absolutely needed a source for clothes and couldn't trade for it, we would get some Sheep...as to what kind, I don't know.

Cattle can be multi purpose but I think Shorthorn or a Shorthorn cross maybe a Shortferd, lol.  A handful of them would be enough for milk and the calves for meat.  The cows could be used for Oxen and for riding if need be.

Horses I would prefer to ride as I would think they get around tight corners better.  I would probably pic an Arabian horse for their mobility.

Fruits trees would be a must and they would probably be of the Dwarf variety for reach purposes.   Four Apple, {two cooking apple trees and two sweet apple trees}.  Apricots, Pear, Peach, Cherry, Lemon and Lime.  The Lemon and Lime would be in a greenhouse along with the Banana trees. English Walnuts along with Peanuts.

The Garden really isn't my forte but I would venture to guess, Peas, Green Beans, Sweet Corn, Sun Flower, Cucumbers, Squash, Tomatoes, Potatoes, Rhubarb, Broccoli, Asparagus, another type of Bean, Wheat, Feed Corn, Rye.

Herbs- don't really know my herbs too well so I guess I would leave that up to the cooks.

A few good dogs for guarding the family.

Some Ponds would be nice and a year round spring.

After some reading for Sheep it would be for mainly Wool so Corridale and Shetlands would make a good selection for color, mothering, grass based, and hardy.
I also think trading would become an important aspect eventually.


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## BrownSheep

1. Sheep....Ramboulliet-Extremely hardy, good caracas weights, good wool
                 Polypay. Multiples good mothering ability and plenty of meat
                 Suffolk...meat....plain and simple
                 East Fresian...milk
I own two of the breeds. Polypay is an Idaho developed breed and there's a sheep dairy with the fresians down the road.

Cattle.
        Yaks, live Elevan said. My only concern is how well they would perform ( work wise) in our 100+ summers. I know they can live in it but working is another worry.
        Herfords 
        Jersey and Gernsey
I own two yaks and a herford yak x. The rest are easy acquisitions.

Chickens
         Leghorn
         Barred rock
Pigs.
         I haven't figured a breed yet.
Horses
         Quarter
         Clydesdale 
         Mules aswell 
Other poultry
         Turkeys ( Narraganset )
         Guineas. ( alarms!)
Bees....for honey and wax
Dogs.....What we'll need them
        Herding ( border collies and Australian cattle dogs for sheep and cows respectively)
       Guarding ( LGds and home) pyranees and ????
        Sport( springer spaniels, labs, scent and sight hounds)
Cats....doesn't matter what sort mousers are important.

The rest to come!


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## autumnprairie

Thank you Symphony for bringing this thread back to life and Brown Sheep too.

1) I would have chickens, buff Orpingtons and jersey giants and Cochins for eggs and meat Orpingtons are known for going broody.
2) rabbits new Zealand's they are easy to care for . Fertilizer and meat
3) goats  kiko/boer for meat and Nubian for milk 
4) garden- tomatoes, okra, corn, peppers, peas, beans green and dry beans, onions, garlic, potatoes, squash
5) herb garden- dill, parsley, mullein, basil, rosemary, sage, oregano, mints
6) flowers) roses for vitamin c, calendula, sunflower, arnica, chamomile, st johnwort, sumac penny royal, bee balm, plantain all of these herbs and flowers also have medicinal properties, I would also grow cotton 
I live in between to rivers and have stock ponds behind my property.
Cats and dogs for varmints the two footed and 4 footed 
7) trees- pine, pecan, apple, plum, pear, willow
Canning jars


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## Symphony

Even better we could have a group of compounds.  Brownsheep, Elevan, Autumnpraire and My group and some other members.  Trading amongst each other and eating those tasty Elevan inventions.


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## elevan

Symphony said:
			
		

> Even better we could have a group of compounds.  Brownsheep, Elevan, Autumnpraire and My group and some other members.  Trading amongst each other and eating those tasty Elevan inventions.


That definitely sounds like a good plan.


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## autumnprairie

elevan said:
			
		

> Symphony said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even better we could have a group of compounds.  Brownsheep, Elevan, Autumnpraire and My group and some other members.  Trading amongst each other and eating those tasty Elevan inventions.
> 
> 
> 
> That definitely sounds like a good plan.
Click to expand...

X2


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## BHOBCFarms

This is what I would try to have, livestock-wise:

Poultry: 
Gamehens: For incubation, and raising other breeds.
For meat, any good dual purpose breed like: Rhode Island Reds, Plymouth Rocks, etc.  (Although I have a type of chicken I am developing that is very dual purpose and hardy, so for me, personally I will probably use it in case of emergency.
Turkeys: I like Black Spanish, Midget Whites, Jersey Giants - No need to keep a lot of breeders around, but I have had one hen hatch and raise 17 poults. Good foragers and they can fly.

Rabbits: New Zealands or Standard Rex

Goats: Nigerian Dwarfs

Sheep:  Here's where I differ, I like fiber and I like mutton, and the breed I have now (Mini Cheviot) is an old type, eats little, twins, worth keeping around if I can.

Pork: Pot Belly or Guinea Hog

Cattle: I live in the desert, so I think something like a longhorn/range cattle would be good for beef production.  Possibly Herefords.  If I wanted Dairy, I would go with a Milking Shorthorn or Jersey or Min Jersey if I could get them.

We have an orchard, vineyard, I am looking into raising mealworms for my chickens.  We want to put in a well, but not on this, but a future property elsewhere.


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## Azriel

I think a good group of people to trade with would be important, some people are better at growing a garden others at raising animals. A root celler would be handy as well as a good smoke house. I already do alot of my cooking on my wood stove in the winter, but haven't tried baking in it yet. A knowledge of canning and drying food or a good book on how to is a must. People in the southern states would have a much easier time than ones in the north.
I would have to have a few chickens, but they would have to be able to survive the winter with  scraps and digging in the barn for leftovers from the feed given to the milk animal. I don't know if you could put up a lot of hay, so most of the larger animals would have to be able to winter out on their own. I would want a couple of horses, a few cows, maybe a few rabbits. It would be nice if a neighbor had some animals you didn't to trade meat for milk or garden produce. I could do without cats but think they would be around anyway. I would have to have a dog. We have deer, elk, antelope, wild turkey, jack rabbits and several types of small game birds so hunting/trapping  would be a must also.
Horse drawn equipment, buckboard, mower, rake, plow.
I don't think one person would be able to do it on their own for long, so a larger family unit would be a plus to share labor.
My BF and I have talked about this alot, and he would move to my place with his 5 adult kids and their familys. I have plenty of room and the land needed to raise what we would need.


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## Baymule

This is a good thread. I live in town on a small lot. I keep hens in the backyard for eggs and the occasional old hen in the stew pot. I do not have room to raise feed for them. They get garden trimmings and scraps, but that would not be sustainable. I raise a garden and it gives us lots of vegetables. The climate is mild enough that I can raise cabbage, greens, lettuce, carrots, broccoli and cauliflower in the winter. These things would help, but would not totally sustain us.


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## greybeard

Forget meats, vegetables, fruits, milk, and other "staples" . People will, one way or another figure those things out in the long run. 
As in "the old days", people with highly tradeable items like tobacco, flour, sugar, salt, honey, and coffee will be looked upon as no less than gawds.  
Especially true in the basic elemental needs for us as a species to survive. Salt, is one of those things that neither humans or livestock can do without for very long. 
Citrus, will become like gold. 
If it's a long lived catastrophic event, the ability to even clothe one's self will be paramount. Tanning of animal hides, spinning, sewing, loom making will take the place of high tech trades. 
Lots to consider.


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