# Would you buy a goat who is Neg, but is in a herd with a few Pos CAE?



## AkTomboy (Dec 23, 2010)

I am getting ND goats this year, we have been planning for two or so years to add them to the crew here. It will be my kiddos first "big boy" 4-H project in my club. So far he has just done his chickens and horses. 


 A person is selling a few of her herd  there are two who are Neg but they do live with a few that are Pos.... so what would you goat ppl do?


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## lilhill (Dec 23, 2010)

Positive for what?  CAE, CL????  What all have they been tested for?


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## AkTomboy (Dec 24, 2010)

In Sept they got the full work up by the local Vet up here, I am looking at a prego Doe and a wether who are both Neg, but they are in a herd with 2 CAE POS.

Everything I have ever read says that adults all but dont get  it, if you have a doe with it you can take her colostrum and heat treat it and bottle feed the kids in the hopes they dont get it.

This will be our first goats, so I figured I would ask seasoned goat people what they thought of it. 

Thanks all


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 24, 2010)

Just my personal opinion, I wouldn't. Just because I want to be able to sell any future kids to people who may consider that a reason to not buy, and also because I don't want the risk of that disease coming on my property even though it is manageable. Plus I intend to drink my milk and I don't plan to bottle raise my kids.


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## ()relics (Dec 24, 2010)

If I were you and there was any other option, I would find some healthy Negative animals to start your herd.  Why start with something you already know could work into a problem?  Build your herd from healthy negative stock and you will be VERY happy you did down the road with your new healthy negative kids.  Rather than always on the look-out for a positive test result from something that you are sure is actually clean..._Edited to remove uncalled for content_


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## aggieterpkatie (Dec 24, 2010)

I would. It's pretty hard for an adult to get CAE from another goat.  You can always pull the kids and bottle them if you're still worried about it.  I have a CAE+ doe and I was still able to sell the kids as raised on CAE prevention.  Besides, CAE isn't as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be (IMO).


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## lilhill (Dec 24, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> If I were you and there was any other option, I would find some healthy Negative animals to start your herd.  Why start with something you already know could work into a problem?  Build your herd from healthy negative stock and you will be VERY happy you did down the road with your new healthy negative kids.  Rather than always on the look-out for a positive test result from something that you are sure is actually clean..._Edited to remove uncalled for content_.


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## BetterHensandGardens (Dec 24, 2010)

I wouldn't take the chance - too many possible long range consequences if one would turn out positive.  I don't want to bottle raise the kids and as owners, I think it's our responsibility and in our best interest to make sure we're not helping spread disease in any way.  If one turned up positive would you still allow any of them to be used for 4H and possibly spread disease further.......?


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## mully (Dec 24, 2010)

In a word...NO  With all the goats that are for sale why take a chance?


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## AkTomboy (Dec 26, 2010)

The problem is that here in* Alaska *finding a herd that is a total NEG for CAE is super hard, I have been looking for ND for almost two years and every one who I have talked to except for one who is not selling has a Pos in the herd somewhere. 

So its either get a goat who is NEG from a herd with a POS or fly kids up. I have had dogs, birds, horses and snakes fly up here so I am sure they can do goats, but I am guessing they will have to be weaned b4 flying, and they will be looking at anywhere from 12-18 hrs of travel time once they are dropped off at he airport....

The two I am looking at have tested NEG in Sept. 

From what I have read its a white blood cell transfer is how they catch it, so nursing babies is the number one way to catch it, you can heat treat and bottle feed the kids. Also it is all but a no go on adults catching it in everything I have read and talking to my local vet. I agree on not wanting to spread anything to others sooo what to do?

I have not said if I will buy these or not thats why Im asking for yalls thoughts.  Thanks again for the help.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 26, 2010)

I live in Alaska and can get you lots of herds that have been tested Johne's CAE and the other one... free (I have not seen the records for myself but feel that I can trust a number of them). You have to pay a bit more but inmo it's worth it. If your on Facebook  join this group and ask for who has some animals for sale. It is for Alaskan's with ND's.  http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_165639586798729&ap=1. 

I started the group and you will find probably at least 7 goat owners who test every year and take many cautions to keep it that way.


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## elevan (Dec 26, 2010)

AkTomboy said:
			
		

> So its either get a goat who is NEG from a herd with a POS or fly kids up. I have had dogs, birds, horses and snakes fly up here so I am sure they can do goats, but I am guessing they will have to be weaned b4 flying, and they will be looking at anywhere from 12-18 hrs of travel time once they are dropped off at he airport....


That is a lot of stress for such a small breed of goat.  And if you want babies that's even more stress on them (imo)

I seem to experience shipping fever problems with 1 hour car travel times when I get new pygmies (which are similar in size to NDs)...I would be afraid my kids would arrive dead if they had to fly 12-18 hours and from possibly one climate extreme to another (imo)

In my opinion CAE is a manageable disease that is not as bad as some make it out to be.  As long as you know what you are getting into I say go for it.  The one's you are looking at have tested neg...just keep testing and take CAE prevention techniques for any kids born.


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## aggieterpkatie (Dec 26, 2010)

BetterHensandGardens said:
			
		

> I wouldn't take the chance - too many possible long range consequences if one would turn out positive.  I don't want to bottle raise the kids and as owners, I think it's our responsibility and in our best interest to make sure we're not helping spread disease in any way.  If one turned up positive would you still allow any of them to be used for 4H and possibly spread disease further.......?


It's pretty hard to spread CAE at a goat show. I mean, unless other goats in separate pens are somehow able to nurse on your positive doe....


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## AkTomboy (Dec 26, 2010)

CrownofThornsNDGoats

All I know is those who I have spoken to, my vets testing, and speaking with the State Vet, when speaking to him the records for 2009 only had 3 ND herds who tested 100% clean, two were sold out due to the down payment on kids b4 they are born and the other I spoke with was not selling. One of the ND herds was clean but did have another breed of goat on the property who was POS for CAE.  This was over a year ago when I spoke to him and Im sure there are more people who test and have herds than he has on the books but thats where I started.

I am on that facebook group as well, and have had many people teaching me, and been very helpful from my first interst to proud goat owner trip I am on. 

elevan 

I can understand the stress it has on any animal be it dog, bird, alpaca, horse or goat. The weather is not a problem as they would be shipped only in the summer time, the total trip time would be the 12-18 hrs not just flying time you have to have you animal in 2 hrs b4 the flight, lay overs bla bla. Heck even just from SEA to here is 7 hrs total time. 

From what I have seen, and I am not even a member to this goat world yet there is two sides to the CAE story. Those like you who say go for it just know what your getting into, and those who say its hell on earth and everything is going to die if you step foot on a farm with it. 

I have worked with our vet, read everything I can get my hands on and keep speaking to other experianced goat owners. I am just at a loss of to try and get the two NEG who are adults and the doe is bred to a NEG from another farm and hope it all goes well, or just scrap the idea. 

Thank you all again for the input I much rather hear honest thoughts than smoke and mirror tricks any day.


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## babsbag (Dec 26, 2010)

My vet tells me that they can seroconvert at any time, no matter the exposure. I test every year for CL and CAE, they are negative this year, but might not be next year. Here is a good article on CAE, you might have already read it.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx

Here is a couple of excerpts from the article.

"A negative result means that this goat is either not infected, or has been recently infected and is producing amounts of antibody too low to be detected.While the latter case does not appear to be common, it is a good reason to retest all negative goats when not in a closed herd. Goats that are negative should be periodically tested (twice a year for the 1st year, and annually thereafter). 

In some goats, seroconversion may be delayed for months after exposure. These "silently" infected animals test negative for antibody until the viral infection is activated by stress or other factors. It has not been determined whether these goats were infectious to other goats during the time they harbored the virus but remained seronegative. "

I wish I had known about CAE and CL before I bought my first goats, and I wish I knew their herd history. Once negative does not mean always negative. But there are quite a few people who have gotten clean kids from infected does. I don't think I would take the chance. Goats give me enough to worry about without adding that to the pot. IMO


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## elevan (Dec 26, 2010)

Unfortunately this is a topic that you are going to consistently hear 2 sides on.  Only YOU can decide what to do for your farm.

Best of luck to you no matter which way the wind blows for you in this.


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## babsbag (Dec 27, 2010)

elevan said:
			
		

> Unfortunately this is a topic that you are going to consistently hear 2 sides on.  Only YOU can decide what to do for your farm.
> 
> Best of luck to you no matter which way the wind blows for you in this.


 x2
Couldn't agree more with that advice


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 27, 2010)

I don't know how the records may be kept, but havotto considered that some may not go through a vet for testing, but rather send in the blood samples themselves to WADDL or some other testing lab? WADDL I have heard is considered the most reliable. I know that at Fair Skies they have one animal that is posative for something (I'm assuming CAE) but she has never been allowed near the other goats, and if I recall what Heather told me, I think she isnt even bred ever. 

I am getting ready to test my goats as I have lost my bucks to something that is either lack of minerals or Johnes. If I test free then there will be my animals to consider too.

From what I have been taught the best thing is to constantly keep your eyes "peeled" and then when you go to look at a goat insist on seeing whole herd records. Make sure they are up to date. My goats had been tested 2 years ago, but since that time they had been on a cow farm. In my ignorance I did not know that Johne's was not just a goat specific disease. So if that is indeed what they had (praying it's not!) then they got it from then. So make sure they have been tested since being moved anywhere.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Dec 27, 2010)

I have been reading through Juliette de Baircli Levy's book, The Complete Herbal Handbook for Farm and Stable. She mentions that you can allow a kid to remain on the mothers milk and keep the kid from getting CAE, plus it reads like also curing the mother of CAE. She tells of one goat owner who started out with goats that had every known disease, and through herbal treatment  it wasn't very long before people were traveling from all over to see and buy from her very healthy herd. I was really hoping I could find some more information online about that lady, but there isn't anything. At least not that I have dug up yet.


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## AkTomboy (Dec 27, 2010)

CrownofThornsNDGoats]

I agree with you, Im guessing most people do testing by sending out the samples from the farm to WADDL.

After working for many years with our local vet and seeing how many people fake papers for a million thing when it comes to animals. So I try and start there with concrete records, but in this going on third year of looking into ND I have come to see that most people do just as you said and send in for testing, instead of using a vet. 

Makes things a little trickier when your just starting in the goat world and dont know who you can trust or not. I know that sounds harsh but its true as in any world be it dogs, alpacas, horses whatever.  

Another first time goat owner here got three kids last year who where sold saying they were from a clean herd, showed paperwork and all, after two of them started acting odd and taking them to the vet were found to have CAE. Then after talking to other people with goats in Fairbanks, that person was found to "fake papers often" it was sad. 

I just dont want to get burned and have an upset kiddo when his new goats get sick.


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## chandasue (Dec 27, 2010)

It'd cost you more but if they're reputable breeders then they shouldn't have any issues with you having your own vet come out to inspect and draw blood on the goats you want and run the tests so you know what your getting into. There's some variables with the tests and you'd be best off discussing the results with a knowledgeable vet.


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## AkTomboy (Dec 27, 2010)

Chandasue

Id love to be able to do this, but Im in Alaska, these goats are 450+ miles one way from me. Thats a little bit much $ for a farm call + mileage. 

I guess being so close to each other is a plus for somethings in the lower 48.


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## chandasue (Dec 28, 2010)

That is a real bummer... In that case I'd pass and keep looking. You don't want to add any problems.
Edit: I should add that I have caught 2 of my does attempting to nurse off of one in milk so the possibilities of adult transfer are certainly plausible.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 28, 2010)

In my opinion...the answer is simple. NO I would not.   I would not risk it.


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## AkTomboy (Dec 28, 2010)

Okay so I for those of you who say keep looking what are your thoughts on shipping goats ie Flying them?

So I know there are some great lines in OR I liked, they are willing to ship them via plan to me so what are yalls thoughts on that?


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## elevan (Dec 28, 2010)

AkTomboy said:
			
		

> Okay so I for those of you who say keep looking what are your thoughts on shipping goats ie Flying them?
> 
> So I know there are some great lines in OR I liked, they are willing to ship them via plan to me so what are yalls thoughts on that?


I would put this as a new topic


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## AkTomboy (Dec 29, 2010)

Elevan

Thank you for the tip I did just that


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