# VERY skinny doe - updated post 38 - bottlejaw :(



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Hi all,

I have a doe that kidded 3-5. She's been doing poorly since she was in her last month of pregnancy, but she's taking a real slide now in the past couple of days. I'm really worried about her. 

She got loose minerals through the end of pregnancy, fed extra grain, always has free access to hay, and there's a lot of green out there. She was too thin at the end of her pregnancy, and her legs started bowing in. This is the doe that had a doeling with weak legs. The doeling is very fine now, btw. (thanks all!)

She was probably too young to be bred (buck got in with her - she's a yearling) but she grew SO well as a kid, I didn't lute her and let her carry them. I wish now I hadn't let her have them (twins). 

I've been trying to put some weight on her, but I just found out a couple days ago that she's been leaving grain in her trough. I wasn't checking (stupid me) but I've never had a goat NOT eat grain. I got suspicious when one of my other does started having fits in the morning wanting to get in this one's stall, and sure enough, she leaves grain every night. She does dig around like she's LOOKING for something, but she won't eat all the grain. She still gets loose minerals daily. I also gave her a shot of BoSe after she kidded. She can have another one if need be. 

She scoured green after we had some flooding here, and the foliage came out really fast. I tried to get her to eat more hay and she cleared up after a day or two, but she's had intermittent scours since then. I checked her eyelids not long ago (maybe 8 days), and she was fine. Today I went out and she is TERRIBLY thin ... she's like a skeleton along her back. Behind her ribs is terribly sunken. She's had scours overnight in her stall. Her inner eyelids are almost white. All the others had fine eyelids last time I checked (I think it's been about 8 days) but I'm going to check them all again. The others all look quite fine (couple of does, buck, wether, and 4 kids). 

I haven't milked her at all, since she seemed not to be doing too well and had twins. I've been bringing her into the back yard for two mornings now since she seems crazy to get to the extra clover there. I brought her back to give her more grain, but she only eats a little of it. I don't have any goat pellets, but I gave her a couple of cups of rabbit pellets this morning to see if she'd like them better than grain. She ate some, but started pawing at the dish and shoving the food around like she's looking for something again. She only ate about 1/3 of it. She will graze heavily on clover, specifically. BTW, I read that clover has lots of a type of tannin, I think it is, that they say helps supress barberpole. I don't know ... 

It's just now warming up ... hot a few days. Coolish nights. Plenty of rain. Pasture's been growing for a while now (couple months). Last year we had such a drought it was all like drylot out there and I didn't have to worm at all. She's never been wormed, consequently. She was born several months before the drought started though. 

I'm going to learn to do my own fecals, but I'm not there yet. Work has picked up a little (was unemployed for a LONG time so I have a lot of catching up to do) ... I might be able to afford a fecal, but I'm still behind on things. I'd rather put the money to meds she needs, if I can. I'm still at the point of having to choose, financially. I have red cell on hand. I'm out of wormer. Got BoSe. At this point I'm ready to give her molasses just to get some calories in her. Thinking of adding it to water cuz I'm thinking she's dehydrated just from the scours. I do keep a good sized trough of clean water out there in the shade. They often choose to drink from the goose pools though.  

Am I missing anything? Would appreciate any ideas or suggestions. I've never seen one go downhill like this, and I'm really afraid I may lose her. I really want stronger animals in my breeding program, but I can make decisions about that later. I feel like I haven't treated her right anyway by allowing her to kid so young, even though I gave her lots of extra feed. She had such potential as a kid. Whether I decide to keep her in my breeding program or not, I'd like to save her if possible, and her kids aren't ready to wean yet either. 

Thanks.


----------



## redtailgal (Apr 19, 2012)

Can you get a fecal done on her?  I would suggest that you get one ASAP.

Her eyelids being fine would suggest that she does not have barberpole worms,  but there are several other worms that could be in there that wont show paleness in the eyelid, such as the brown stomach worm.

I know that she is an adult, but with your rain and her just delivering, maybe she's got an overload of coccidia.

I've still got a lot to learn about goats, but I would be very surprised if you didnt have a pretty wormy doe.

I'd also suggest a B12 shot to help with her energy and appetite.

I'm sure that others will chime in here soon and give you more (and probably better) suggestions.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks, Redtail,

I know I rambled a bit. Just to clarify ... her eyelids WERE fine. Now *she is almost whited out*. 

I hadn't thought of B-12. I have some injectable for my dog. I wonder if I can give her that ... need to look into it. 

If anyone may be familiar with it, what I have is Cyanocobalamin injection, (b-12) 1,000 mcg/ml. The name on it is Cytex. 

Thanks!!!


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Apr 19, 2012)

Given she is young still and that just kidded, I am on board with RedTailGal on the coccidiosis, which can take a goat out quickly.  Do you have a vet who would write you a RX for a drug called SMZ-TMP---this was suggested to me by member of this forum when I had a really sick doe and I am sure it saved her furry behind.  I had already tried a sulfa on her and it helped but was not working well enough.  Withing 24 hrs of starting her on SMT-TMP, the scours started clearin gup and she was acting sooo much more like herself.


----------



## currycomb (Apr 19, 2012)

WORM THE GOAT, with a mild wormer first, then in 10 days with some heavy duty stuff. panacur first, then cydectin. put red cell into all the while. her not eating the grain means she has stomach issues which equals worms. no need for fecal, just worm for everything. the intermitent loose stools is a clue. you could treat for coccidia as well. better hurry, sounds like she is on her last leg.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks, I called and talked to the vet. They will run a fecal for $15 checking for worms, coccidia. There is fresh scour in her stall from this morning, so I may just run that in. 

I really do hate to lose her. Normally they will give a script for whatever I ask for, and if it's coccidia they only have Albion anyway. I have to make a run out of town for several hours today, so since I can't even watch her I may just have the fecal. 


Ah, answer while I was typing ... 

Worm with something mild ... (edit, sorry, didn't see your whole answer)

OK, off to the feed store, don't have those. Thanks!


----------



## redtailgal (Apr 19, 2012)

To worm the goat with the wrong wormer and less than a full dose will lead to resistant worms, that will, in turn, infect the rest of your herd.  

I HIGHLY recommend a fecal check, so that you KNOW what type of worm you are dealing with, and you get the RIGHT wormer at the right dosage......At this point, you  need to consider the rest of the herd and the kids, as well as this doe.  



Here is an excellent article on this:

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Ah, and I didn't realize that pancur was the same thing as safeguard. I've used it before on VERY weak doeling with a bad case of barberpole. Not sure it really worked, I did manage to keep her alive until I treated more aggressively. 

I gotta sort out my finances, and time. I have to be somewhere in a couple of hours, and the vet is half an hour in the other direction. And the feed store only takes cash, meaning I'd have to drive to another town first. 

Lovely living so far out, isn't it?   (Really, I do love it)

OK ... I think I"m going to check on her, give her some red cell and maybe even molasses, if she looks ok, I think I'll get the fecal. I'm actually VERY against throwing wormers at a goat willy-nilly (vets here say to worm every two months, rotating wormers, never doing a fecal, and I think we do have a lot of resistance because of that). I DO worm, but only when my goats get an overload. Last time I did any worming was almost two years ago. 

Thanks for the info, will appreciate anything extra as well.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Apr 19, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> To worm the goat with the wrong wormer and less than a full dose will lead to resistant worms, that will, in turn, infect the rest of your herd.
> 
> I HIGHLY recommend a fecal check, so that you KNOW what type of worm you are dealing with, and you get the RIGHT wormer at the right dosage......At this point, you  need to consider the rest of the herd and the kids, as well as this doe.
> 
> ...


x2  

I totally get how hard it is so be financially strapped and need vet service.  Fecals might cost $5 depending on the vet and it would give you peace of mind that you are treating for the right thing and safe you money in medications that don't hit the mark.    Keep us posted and I am sending good thoughts your way 

Sorry, posted before I saw you had reposted


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

That cheap? My vet charges $15 ...   (and darnit, for $17 I can buy safeguard paste and sulmet). 

Well, I got a few small freelance jobs. It's all gonna go for fecals and goat meds, probably, LOL.   Better than if I had no work at all, I guess. 

She felt good enough to fight me on the red cell. I managed to get around 12 mL down her. Still not wanting pellets. That's maybe $15 saved, because I was going to buy goat feed to see if she'd eat that. Of course, it would be eaten by the others and not a waste anyway. 

I need to run on my errand. I think I'm going to drop off the fecal. Incentive for me to get the rest of the equipment and work on learning to do my own. I've read about it is all, and I'm hoping the microscope I have is good enough. 

Seriously though, I guess I do need to find out what's going on with her, for the others' sake. The whole cost isn't as much as I can probably get for just one of the kids. (Can't keep them all, 3 are bucklings, but I'm gonna hate to see them go ... they are a lot of fun to watch.)

Haha, and the water in the back is dripping. Guess I'll need to replace the hose bib tonight. I'm going to have to shut off the water for now. The geese are digging a nice little mudhole under the house in the dripping water. 

When it rains it pours? 

Thanks for all the input, y'all. I can't see any reason not to give her the B-12 I have on hand, so I'll give her some of that tonight. Hopefully the iron and b-12 will perk her up a bit. You'd think I'd have thought of that, my dog was a walking skeleton 4 months ago (canine EPI) and the B-12 is what finally turned him around and let him put weight on again. Somehow I can't think straight when it's my own animals.


----------



## elevan (Apr 19, 2012)

My vet charges $15 for a fecal so you're right in there with the average...it's well worth the money.

Here's what I'd do if she were here:

Deworm with Safeguard 1ml / 10# x 3 days in a row
Give Albon if needed for coccidia based on fecal results
Red Cell 6 ml/ 25# every 6-8 hours for 24 hours, then once per week until better (based on FAMACHA check)
Probios daily (or yogurt)
Vitamin B Complex 1.25 ml / 25# SQ injection
At 7 days after the Safeguard I would come back with Ivomec 1ml / 25# then repeat 10 days later


eta:  Also based on the fact that your goat has white eyelids, I'm moving this thread to the Emergency section of the forum.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 19, 2012)

I do something similar to what Elevan is recommending, although I use a little stronger wormer than safeguard, but that is a really good starting point for you.


----------



## elevan (Apr 19, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I do something similar to what Elevan is recommending, although I use a little stronger wormer than safeguard, but that is a really good starting point for you.


I would normally start with Valbazen but I thought I read that the OP already has Safeguard??


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Can I just scream now? Lol

Went to the vet, waited on fecal. 

"she's loaded with stomach worms, you need to worm her."

Ok, what kind of worms?

"stomach worms."

Can you tell me what kind?

Half a dozen questions later and they let me talk to the vet who says when he gets time he'll check the book. But it doesn't matter. Whether they have worms or not, whatever kind they have, buy these 5 wormers and give them one a month. Period. 

Did they ask me if she's pregnant? 

No. 

Sigh

I bought Cydectin oral so I'll have something. They don't sell sell safeguard. 

Ah cool, they did call while I was typing. Barberpole. 

Here we go ...

At least I do know it's not coccidia.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Apr 19, 2012)

Whew!  Glad you got an answer and can get her going on the right meds.


----------



## elevan (Apr 19, 2012)

Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> I bought Cydectin oral so I'll have something. They don't sell sell safeguard.
> 
> Ah cool, they did call while I was typing. Barberpole.
> 
> ...


Use the Cydectin.  It's the best we have right now on the market for Barberpole.

In addition give Red Cell to combat the anemia and Probios to replenish rumen flora.

Vitamin B shot will give her an immunity boost and increase her appetite.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Thanks. 

I have cydectin now, and b12, red cell, and probios on hand. 

Think I run a big risk jumping into cydectin? I was debating getting valbazen too to start her off, but at this point it will probably mean a 12 hour delay in worming?


----------



## elevan (Apr 19, 2012)

The risk is always there.  You could certainly lessen it by starting with Valbzen.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 19, 2012)

Actually I just got valbazen too. It was only $4 and not too far out of the way, since my later appt was pushed back a couple hours. Just hope I get home in time to do evening chores before dark.


----------



## Roll farms (Apr 20, 2012)

I would deworm her w/ Valbazen 1st.....1cc per 25#.  Do it for 3 days straight.  Then use the Cydectin in 1 wk.

Repeat the cydectin in 3 wks.  Have a follow up fecal ran 1wk after that.

With a heavy barberpole load, and blood thinned by the barberpole, you run the risk of 'bleed out' internally if you deworm w/ strong stuff and kill them ALL off at once.  The worms let go and the goat can have a stomach bleed and die.

Always deworm on an 'empty' stomach, they're much more effective.

The red cell, b vit, probios, etc. is all good advice, too.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks Roll,

I looked on here and had seen to use Valbazen at 2-3x recommended -- BUT she's also on the small sideand so thin now, and I don't know her exact weight. I hope it worked out ok. Not quite daylight here and my morning routine goes a LOT smoother if I don't open the goat shed until I can let them out. 

She actually looked much better when I got home. Still looked awful, but better than she did at dawn yesterday. Maybe the red cell had perked her up some. 

Edited to add: she scarfed SOME grain last night, I don't think she finished it. I also put her back onthe clover while I did my chores and cut some branches from a hackberry tree. She ate leaves for a little while but didn't finish them. Hackberry leaves seem to be the favorite browse of ALL my goats but since the llama loves them too there are no branches in the pasture they can reach. 

Anyway, I gave 8mL valbazen, only 12 mL red cell (she really really hates it and I am having to use a syringe), a human-sized dose of a strong good quality liquid multi B (when I read the pkg insert for the injectable B12 it scared me to death - it IS mostly used for anemia in humans tho), probios, and about 18 mL blackstrap molasses (mixed with the Valbazen, B, and red cell - mostly to try and get her to be willing to swallow it).

Her stomach wasn't empty, of course, but I wanted to start right away. 

It was too late to check the others' eyelids last evening but I'll look at the rest of them today. Everyone's condition except this one is fair to good and all the lesser ones have been improving. Even the other doe with BIG twins of the same age has put on a little condition. 

I'll know in a little while how she's doing. 

Thanks again


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 20, 2012)

I read the first post and then skimmed- I didn't see where you listed her calcium source?  Feeding grain, grass hay, and browse (other than legumes) is a surefire recipe for hypocalcemia.  Regardless of the parasite issue, if she isn't getting a calcium rich food source then this milker's metabolic needs are not met and at best she will not do well, at worst you will lose her to hypocalcemia.

I'm also guessing that any vet who suggests worming monthly and rotating wormers has HORSE experience and no GOAT experience.  Time to do some reading about parasite management in goats.  If you PM me I can send you some resources both for nutrition and parasite management.


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

Yep, deworming on a monthly basis is a recipe for drug resistant worms.  When you have a moment and a clear mind you might want to read the Parasite Management article that is linked in my signature below.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh, believe me, I have NO intention of following the vet's protocol.

I'm still shaking my head over him challenging me, "Why do you want to know what KIND of worms the goat has? It doesn't matter!"

I am wondering if he really even checked his book and identified what he saw, or just had his assistant call me with a common answer. I have no idea.

I'll tell you what I found this morning. A LOAD of tapeworms, deposited in the corner. I cleaned it all up. Well, I should say that I THINK they are tapeworms. If there is some other worm that infects goats that looks like tapeworms, I could be wrong. I'm going to look that up. I saw long, flat, segmented ribbon-like worms, that broke apart very easily, and the ones I teased out without breaking were about 24" long (guessing). I did take some pics, but they are not that good. I could have missed tiny worms of course, but these things were just so VISIBLE. In the dark of the barn, it looked like whole kernels of corn in the poop (which is less scour-y today but still not pellets), so I scooped the whole thing up and brought it out to see. (I don't feed whole kernel corn, btw). 

I'm VERY interested in the mineral/nutritional info. I KNOW something is going on with this girl's minerals, and I thought I was doing the right things to try to straighten her out. Calcium is a huge concern for me, so I'll definitely PM you. 

The main pasture I keep the goats on is pretty high in legumes (clover?) during the early spring, but my pregnant/kidded does have been eating it down to nothing. I'm not sure they've left much clover. I do still have large stands in some other places, and I've been giving this doe access for a few days, since she seems to crave it. I put my llama on it at night, and the geese have been eating surprisingly little of it this year. I'd been pulling it for the rabbits so it doesn't go to waste before the weather gets too hot for it. 

She does have loose minerals, but I'm not so sure these are a great kind. I've been looking for something else but haven't found anything but these locally. 

And I'm not real happy with the vet at ALL. The only good thing about him was that he used to give me whatever I wanted, no questions asked, but I had to do all my own research. Now they are wanting to see the animal, run tests, etc. (which normally I would consider a good thing) except that their advice is pretty much opposite what I would want to do anyway. When I first went in two years ago, they were saying rotate wormers for ALL goats EVERY two months. Now they are saying every month. In another two years, I wonder if they'll be dosing them daily???  Sigh. Thanks for all the local resistant worms, guys.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh, and I should have reported on her condition!!!

She's still scary-thin of course, still scouring but not as bad. She DOES have a better appetite, almost cleaned up the grain I gave her this morning, and took the clover I gave her, and went looking for leaves, so I put her back in the pasture where I've tossed the cut branches. I'm glad she's wanting to eat. She's also resisting me much more strongly, so that's something, even if it's harder to move her around. 

I don't know if she finished her grain last night or what happened, because someone got her stall door opened and she was out in the passageway with another doe, so I don't know who ate what, but the hay and grain I leave for them at night was all gone. 

Hopefully I won't lose her, and I'll try to get on top of the calcium issue, because I am greatly concerned about that. Thanks!


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

Tapeworms are about the only worm you'll actually see in a goats poo...sometimes roundworms but tapeworms would be what you saw.

Now that you're getting rid of the tapes she'll have an easier time putting condition back on.


----------



## redtailgal (Apr 20, 2012)

tapes will eat up condition on any critter.  Glad you got those things out!

In other critters (and I am pretty sure it would be the same with goats), tapes are bad for a rebound, so I'd be very sure to repeat with another wormer in a couple weeks.

I'm so glad she's doing better!

edited to add: if you end up looking for a new vet and cant find one that works with goats, look for someone who specialized in Cattle.  They tend to be more "open minded" and willing to learn new or different things.  Equine vets are wonderful, and have their place, but tend to know only what they know and stick to that.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

Thanks, y'all,

She still has a long ways to go, and I'm not 100% confident of her recovery. Still, she's a STRONG girl as far as her will and how she USED TO be. 

I'm still kicking myself for letting her carry those kids. The doeling is a doll, and I'm glad to have her, but not at the risk of a goat I already raised. 

That's the problem ... she was SO strong as a kid. She amazed people who saw her and couldn't believe she was so big and strong. But as soon as she became pregnant, she stopped growing, and now she's in such terrible shape. 

I read somewhere online that at some farm, they'd never had a problem, and bred many goats to kid as yearlings. That may be true for them, but I wish I'd never seen it. She was YOUNG when she was bred (darn buck -- he's behind a gate made of bolted 2x4's and 4 x 4's now -- he smashed my other gates) ... but given that she was HUGE for a kid, and that others had had no problems, and I bought a yearling in milk once that grew to full size during her second year ... I thought she'd be ok. 

I'm going to keep kicking myself over her, I'm sure, and I'll never do it again.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> edited to add: if you end up looking for a new vet and cant find one that works with goats, look for someone who specialized in Cattle.  They tend to be more "open minded" and willing to learn new or different things.  Equine vets are wonderful, and have their place, but tend to know only what they know and stick to that.


Missed this before I answered. 

Yes, I think I'm looking for a new vet. There is one around here who "had goats" and I'm going to talk to her. Otherwise, I think I'm out of luck unless I want to travel a LONG ways. The other one I'd considered was a horse vet.

This one I see now ... He does see a lot of cows. But horses too. It's a large animal clinic, but they see plenty of dogs and cats too. I think it's only the one vet. 

My dog/cat vet I like better ... he knows he doesn't know goats, but he's willing to learn. His dad retired and left him the business. His dad was a wonderful goat vet, I hear. Sigh.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 20, 2012)

Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> Thanks, y'all,
> 
> She still has a long ways to go, and I'm not 100% confident of her recovery. Still, she's a STRONG girl as far as her will and how she USED TO be.
> 
> ...


We breed all of ours to kid by the time they are 15 or 16 months old, and they never seem stunted as an adult. But one thing I have noticed that coccidiosis and tapeworms can be  a real problem in young does, especially if they are gestating or nursing/milking.  There is no reason she can't recover from this, But it will take time, and she will be more acceptable to a worm load for a while. I would say you are looking at 4 or 5 months of recovery time and putting muscle back on.


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> tapes will eat up condition on any critter.  Glad you got those things out!
> 
> In other critters (and I am pretty sure it would be the same with goats), tapes are bad for a rebound, so I'd be very sure to repeat with another wormer in a couple weeks.


Yep, I would repeat the Valbazen in 10-14 days.



			
				Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> My dog/cat vet I like better ... he knows he doesn't know goats, but he's willing to learn. His dad retired and left him the business. His dad was a wonderful goat vet, I hear. Sigh.


Your dog / cat vet is more than capable of running fecals for you.  He's capable of getting medicines / writing scripts for you.  That's a huge chunk of the battle, if he is willing to do those things for you.

Then you would really only need to find someone who can help with stuff that is more major.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm afraid mine was younger than that.  

So I certainly don't mean that as a comment against anyone who does it that way.  

Thanks, and I do hope she can recover.  Maybe her mama will give me a couple more just like her next year too, instead of the twin bucklings she gave me this year.  One of them especially is an incredibly strong little guy!!!  He's already hard to handle and only 6 weeks old.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 20, 2012)

Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> I'm afraid mine was younger than that.
> 
> So I certainly don't mean that as a comment against anyone who does it that way.
> 
> Thanks, and I do hope she can recover.  Maybe her mama will give me a couple more just like her next year too, instead of the twin bucklings she gave me this year.  One of them especially is an incredibly strong little guy!!!  He's already hard to handle and only 6 weeks old.


I had 4 doelings this year kid out at just 12 months of age, 1 of them lost a lot of weight, and the kids aren't doing very well. But I feel confident that she will recover. Good luck with yours. I wouldnt' beat myself up about it.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I had 4 doelings this year kid out at just 12 months of age, 1 of them lost a lot of weight, and the kids aren't doing very well. But I feel confident that she will recover. Good luck with yours. I wouldnt' beat myself up about it.


I appreciate that. 

I'm almost afraid to tell anyone, but she was 11 months old. Like I said, I keep thinking I should have given her Lute. The only other time I had a doeling that young get in with a buck, I didn't question at all and gave her lute right away (but she was undersized for her age and came to me with health issues). 

Her kids aren't doing as well as my other kids, but they are alright. The others are fabulous, and that doe is a wonderful mama, and so far she's given me amazing kids. The doe I'm needing help for here, she didn't feed her kids often at ALL at first. It wasn't rejection, so I hated to step in, but it was like she would schedule them and only feed them when she was ready and for only as long as she wanted, while they followed her around half the time, trying to nurse, and she'd just walk away.  After a couple of weeks she settled into being a mama though, and now she wants to know where they are, feeds them often, comes when they cry, and so on. Plus they are eating some hay and browse, so they are coming along alright. 

Going to have to see about them and the worms though.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 20, 2012)

You haven't mentioned treating for coccidiosis, and a doe this young, really needs to be treated. It is opportunistic, and will take advantage of a young animal stressed out or weakened from another problem. Although I am sure the tapeworms were not helping any. 

We have a really tough time with tapeworms on our farm. They can really keep a young doe under the age of 2 on the thin side, and your other animals can look rough coated from them.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> You haven't mentioned treating for coccidiosis, and a doe this young, really needs to be treated. It is opportunistic, and will take advantage of a young animal stressed out or weakened from another problem. Although I am sure the tapeworms were not helping any.
> 
> We have a really tough time with tapeworms on our farm. They can really keep a young doe under the age of 2 on the thin side, and your other animals can look rough coated from them.


Vet tells me she does NOT have cocci ... but ... I'm not sure how far I can trust this vet. 

Sigh ... I wonder now if I shouldn't have saved my money on the fecal and just gone ahead. It didn't seem wise, but on the other hand, it hasn't really helped much so far either. I would have assumed barberpole with the whited out eyes and knowing that I had an outbreak a couple of years ago, the rain, and the warm weather.


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sometimes you just have to trust your gut.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

True. Any rate, what's done is done, might as well move forward. 

Gave another 8mL Valbazen, another (same) dose liquid multi-B, upped the molasses and red cell, and gave her 30mL of a calcium/phosphorus/vit-D supplement (good quality liquid for humans, that's a human dose - it was all I had on hand). 

I also decreased her grain and added alfalfa pellets, and put her back on the clover. She refuses grain/alfalfa, and wants hackberry leaves. 

*She's getting bottlejaw.*   She did NOT have it yesterday. She's in good spirits though, and fighting me even harder. 

Her eyelid has a red rim this evening, which before I didn't even see that. The lids are somewhere between grayish-creamish (not much changed).

I checked the rest of the herd's eyelids. Kids are all pretty good. My one other doe that has had issues in the past is pretty good too (surprisingly). She's never settled. I'm giving her till the end of this year to decide if I keep her. Great bloodlines, but the health isn't that good. My other doe (this one's mama) who kidded is looking further down the scale and I'm probably going to worm her too. I'm probably going to go with Cydectin on her. 

So that's where we are. I need to write this stuff in my book and not just here.


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

The bottle jaw will clear up when you get the barberpole worms and anemia under control.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> The bottle jaw will clear up when you get the barberpole worms and anemia under control.


Nothing to panic over then? I've only seen it once before, in a young very weak doe kid, and she was at death's door when she got it. 

I had another doe a few years back that KEPT a heavy barberpole load, seemed nothing I did could clear her up or get her FAMACHA looking good, and she never even had it. 

So I was worried that my doe developed it AFTER her first worming, when she is looking a tiny bit better.


----------



## redtailgal (Apr 20, 2012)

I gotta agree with 20kids..dont beat yourself up over this.

Accidents happen, and you made a call that you regret.  Been there, done that.

Your care and concern for this doe is obvious and you are doing a wonderful job with her.  You have no reason to be ashamed of anything.

I am so glad that she is doing better!  Would love to see pics of her when you feel comfortable with it (for now, I understand if you dont want to post pics).

Hang in there with her!


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I gotta agree with 20kids..dont beat yourself up over this.
> 
> Accidents happen, and you made a call that you regret.  Been there, done that.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much. 

Sigh ... yes, I guess we make bad calls sometimes. I did all the research I could, and did the best I could. I'm just regretting her condition now, but if it turns out she can be restored to good health and I can even straighten those legs out, that would be great. 

I made mistakes learning to breed my rabbits in the beginning too, thinking I was doing them favors by "resting" them longer. 

Anyway, yes, I'm committed as always to doing the best I can by them. And funny you should ask about pics. I actually DID take some today, this morning. But no, I'm not sure I'd want to post them. She looks worse than I personally have ever seen any goat look. Guess I'll load them in my computer (took them with a phone) and then I'll decide if I'm willing, LOL. 

I have really cute baby pics of her. And TONS of pregnancy pics. 

Her kids were standing together by the barn tonight while I was dosing her in the next yard, and they both had kind of humped-up backs, and I was thinking "OH NO!!!" but I think they were just distressed at having her removed. Five minutes later they looked fine, and their eyelids are fine, they haven't lost any weight, no scours, no signs of any problems at all. Her little doeling is my only doe kid this year though, and with possible removal of another doe from my herd later this year, I really REALLY don't want anything to happen to the doeling. Though I'll need a new buck before I can breed her. (And I hate the idea of bringing new goats in.)


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just keep treating.  Individual animals can be more susceptible to getting bottle jaw over others.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

OK, I'll be brave and post a pic of her, who knows, may help if I'm missing something.


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

Do you know the copper situation in your area?


----------



## redtailgal (Apr 20, 2012)

Awww.  Bless her heart.

You get that weight back on her and I'd bet she is a pretty girl!

I wondered about the copper too.  I gave my guys a copper bolus last fall, and they really had a nice coat afterward and they gained weight better afterward too.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 20, 2012)

Well, according to the charts I saw the links posted to here

Copper is 6.6 +/- 2.9 ppm and the bordering county is 4.8 +/- 0.8 ppm. I'm right on the border. 

I give her a red loose mineral (it's all I have been able to find) formulated for goats. She was eating it sporadically before, but I noticed she started eating more while she was pregnant. I usually replenish hers by several tablespoons a day. Unless the chickens were cleaning it from her trough, she's been eating it all. Until the last few days, when she hasn't been eating well at all for the most part. 

My wether is looking a little deficient (white hairs keep coming in, he's tan). He and the buck take a lot of minerals too. I know when I had a black doe, she kept getting reddish and I gave her minerals constantly. 

I have to be careful putting it out, because I have a llama. The llama WILL go in the goat shed if she thinks there is food in there, so I only offer a small amount at a time, and only inside their stalls. She can't get in with the buck/wether, so I can give them more at a time.


----------



## elevan (Apr 20, 2012)

A good way to use copper as a preventative / treatment for worms is with Copper Oxide Wire Particles (Copasure) .  It's something that you may want to look into and consider.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks, Emily, I'll look into that. I looked it up after I read your post. Not available here, but I can order some when I am able to. 

Update ... 

The bottlejaw was worse this morning, and even worse tonight. Her eyelids are starting to show a little more pink. 

This morning she refused ALL food as far as grain, alfalfa, and hay. She didn't eat what I left for her in her trough last night. She was going crazy searching all over for hackberry leaves though. Ate a bite or two of clover, but not too interested. 

However, by this evening, her appetite seems to be back. She did clean out the grain first, but then started eating even the alfalfa pellets (which she doesn't seem to like, never did like, but I think she needs them now). I only fed a small amount of grain, and 3x as many alfalfa pellets. Alfalfa hay not available here until the end of May. 

I gave final dose of Valbazen. Her poop is now a clumpy, sticky, green-black pellet. No longer a green soupy scour as it was, so that's an improvement. 

She's still getting red cell, and I added calcium gel, which I'm now rethinking on someone else's advice. After I dosed her she wasn't at all happy, but she immediately cleared out the dry doe's remaining food, wanted hay, drank a bunch of water, and went in her stall to start on the rest of her own food. 

Her legs look SOOOOO thin, they look like they are wasting away as I watch. The front legs are very bowed in and thin. 

So ... ups and downs. I'm seeing some improvement at least. She's just in scary-bad condition to me. 

I'm not milking her, I never have, because she lost condition before she kidded. I do leave her kids on her though, although I'm thinking of weaning the buckling by putting him in with the boys, but he's an escape artist, that may not work. The kids seem to be eating very well, I think she never did feed them as much as she should have. She IS still producing milk (I checked) but her bag is smaller than it was a few weeks ago, and doesn't feel at all full. 

That's all I can think of ... Someone asked in PM so I'm providing update.  

Thanks so much, everyone!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 22, 2012)

Stick with it- some things in goatkeeping we learn the hard way.  Pull her through and then time to incorporate what you've learned into your management.  I'm a firm believer that when it comes to goats if you can get solid nutrition and parasite management programs into place the rest will fall in line.  Yes, they'll always throw us a curve like a malpresented kid or injuring themselves in the least predictable way possible, but proper nutrition (included supplementation with loose minerals, BoSe, Copper Bolus, etc) and proper parasite/disease management (including coccidiosis prevention in kids, CAE testing, and vaccinating) will mean good body condition, strong immune systems, and freedom from metabolic issues.  Milkers of course need a little extra attention to udder health, but essentially I believe having a good working knowledge of these areas and conscientious management in these areas will mean good health for your herd 99% of the time.  Those aren't just the basics (and seriously, is there anything basic about goat physiology?  ) but truly the foundation of herd health.


----------



## Roll farms (Apr 22, 2012)

Yeah, what she said....


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 22, 2012)

Thanks, everyone. 

Nothing new to report. She's finished with the Valbazen yesterday, and I'll follow it up with Cydectin ... right? In a week?

Still has bottlejaw. Was ok in the morning, but of course much worse this evening after having her head down browsing all day. Eyelids appear to be slightly paler than yesterday evening. 

Gave red cell, vitamin B complex, and a liquid calcium. 

She's not interested in alfalfa pellets today, and I've cut her grain ... sigh ... want to give her the calories, but at the same time, if it's throwing off her calcium ...

She's eating hay, clover, grass, assorted pasture weeds, and she still craves hackberry leaves, which I give her separate from the others. I've got some bananas and strawberries for the animals I'm going to give her first shot at tomorrow. 

Will keep up the red cell and calcium for sure, for now. 

I didn't see her poop at all today. I mean, I'm sure she did, but not in front of me. I didn't notice any scour-y poop anywhere, and it's not on her legs anywhere. I didn't NOTICE clumpy poop, but it could still be out there somewhere. 

My goat thermometer isn't where it should be, so I may pick up another one and take her temp ... I need one anyway. Would like to have that info as well. Kids are doing ok. I guess I'm going to put an ad up for the buckling soon, to get him off her. I need to check but I think he has another week and a half to go to make 8 weeks. Poor little guy ... he and his sister are going to miss each other. 

Not much else to say I guess. Will just keep at it.   Hopefully can build her up, and I thank everyone SO much! 

(does this need to be moved out of emergencies now?)


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 23, 2012)

I wouldn't feed her fruit right now.  The rumen flora are already under a lot of stress with the meds and change in diet.  Keep things as consistent (and as basic) as possible for her until you get her out of the woods, then you can slowly reintroduce treats.  The last thing you want is further digestive upset.


----------



## elevan (Apr 23, 2012)

Bunny-kids said:
			
		

> (does this need to be moved out of emergencies now?)


Ok.  Will do.  Glad she is doing better.  Do keep us updated


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 23, 2012)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I wouldn't feed her fruit right now.  The rumen flora are already under a lot of stress with the meds and change in diet.  Keep things as consistent (and as basic) as possible for her until you get her out of the woods, then you can slowly reintroduce treats.  The last thing you want is further digestive upset.


Thanks, I appreciate that. Her mama will be glad to get them then. She thinks I must be giving treats from the syringe when I pull the sick one anyway. 

Makes sense. I was thinking of getting her more calories and tempting her appetite, but I can see with rumen digestion wanting to keep it on an even keel. 

Glad I mentioned it, thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## mama24 (Apr 23, 2012)

DO NOT feel bad about her being so young! There was no way to tell how that would turn out, especially if she was a big strong girl! It seems like this was a fluke and everything was in her favor to be heatlhy and strong carrying kids, even as a young mom. One of my doelings wasn't supposed to be bred, and she kidded a beautiful *11lb* doeling on Easter Sunday. She was only 11mos old, too. And she's a VERY small girl! Only about 90lbs! And she had an 11lb doeling! So you never can tell, and it was certainly not your fault. Getting the worm overload did this to her, not having the babies. Perhaps the pregnancy on top of the still growing body was what let the worms get so bad, but I wouldn't blame the pregnancy. Now you know to worm more often, and she's going to be FINE.  Luckily for me, I got my does from a friend who I see every Sat when I go buy from him at the farmer's market. He tells me when he's doing his hoof trimming, shots, wormer, etc, so I can follow the schedule he had these girls on when they were with him. That is probably the ONLY reason my girls didn't go downhill. B/c I was pretty clueless when I got them. Only thing I have to add is do you have any probiotics for her? I give my goats a sprinkle of some probiotic powder sometimes that I got from Jeffers when I ordered a bunch of stuff. I've seen prefilled syringes with probiotic gel at the feed store, but they may also have the powder. My girls love the powder when I put it on their grain.  Probiotics are good for getting the stomach and intestinal flora back on track faster.


----------



## nomad (Apr 23, 2012)

For the bottle jaw situation, give salt.  Bottle jaw is simply edema which is too much fluid entering the tissue.  The salt will pull the fluid back into the vascular system where it belongs and help reduce the chance of a "coronary event".   Sometimes bottle jaw is not a result of excessive worm load, but a result of insufficient salt in the diet.  Bacterial endotoxin can also cause excessive capillary permeability which leads to edema.  

For quick energy, provide "simple sugar syrup" which is 1 part sugar to 1 part water.   All organisms function (when in a healthy state) on the respiration of sugar (either recently ingested or in storage form).  

Bring water and sugar to a boil and boil until sugar is dissolved. Cool to room temperature and transfer to a jar. Store in a cool pantry or refrigerate.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 23, 2012)

Thanks, everyone 

I actually have her on Probios, I just keep forgetting to mention that when I list all the other stuff. I am using the Probios gel, and giving her about 1-1/2-2x the regular dose, I'd say. It's the only thing I give her that she doesn't HATE. LOL poor girl. 

I'll look into the salt. Thanks for that info. 

I might go with sugar-water too ... I'd given her molasses for a while, but she associates it with the red cell (I tried mixing them) so she doesn't even want molasses now. 

Mostly she's eating pasture weeds today, had a little clover and hay. 

I'm going to be needing more hay pretty soon, and they've started cutting here. I can get some fresh grass hay (I'm hoping) this week. Will be a while before I can get fresh alfalfa, looks like. 

I am still thinking of grabbing some goat pellets, though I'll have to drive a bit for them, since our feed store doesn't have them. TSC a few towns over should. My feed store suggested mare and colt ration, which is a grain/sweet feed. Gotta drive a ways in different directions to get anything else for the llama or the goats.

Edited to add: oh, and thanks, Mama for the encouragement. I haven't had that many kiddings yet anyway, and with her being so young, I was feeling like it was my fault. If she can get back on track, I'll feel much better about it too. I'm hoping those legs can become strong and straight again. I'm just still a little in shock over how hard it hit her. I've had emergencies before, but never anything like this. I appreciate you sharing that. I guess it's definitely a live-and-learn situation.   Thanks again!


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 25, 2012)

Bottlejaw GONE as of Tuesday evening. 

She STILL wants mostly hackberry leaves, so I'm leaving her with that, browse, and hay. I'm still offering alfalfa pellets. She looks a little better, though of course she's going to be thin for a long time. 

Eyelids have just the tiniest bit of pinkish coming back. 

Still on the red cell, etc. routine. Will cut back when the eyelids improve more. She fought me a lot less over it today. Maybe she decided it's not THAT bad. Otherwise her spirits are good, she RAN to the gate, hopeful for goodies. 

Her buckling is doing well. The doeling is fine too, but so much smaller than all the boys, and smaller than her mama was. She's healthy though, so I'm just going to hope she catches up once I pull the buck kid. I worry it may be hard on her though since he is her buddy -- she hasn't really bonded very firmly with the buck kids from my other doe. 

Dealing with rabbit kit and duckling issues, so I'm glad the goat is coming along.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 25, 2012)

Make sure kids are on coccidiosis prevention and you'll see better growth rates, no mortality from coccidiosis, and they will be healthier as adults.  Great job for knocking out the bottle jaw!  Stick with it!


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks for the update.  Glad to hear about the progress.


----------



## Bunny-kids (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks for all your help.


----------

