# Bottle babies, should I be concerned??



## dianneS (Mar 20, 2012)

I have had two bottle babies for one week now.  They are two weeks old today.  They were with their mom for the first week.

It wasn't easy getting them on the bottle.  It took a few days for them to catch on.  They are now taking the bottle just fine, however they are not as ravenous about it as I read that kids could be.  They usually only take about 4 oz. per feeding. I figured this is good, I won't have to worry about over feeding them.  I've been giving them more frequent, smaller meals.  Sometimes only 2 oz or so per feeding about 2-3 hours apart.

Usually in the evening, they are both really hungry and that is when I can finally get them to take 4-6 oz. all at once.  Last night they were both pretty hungry and had maybe 8 oz. at bedtime, their biggest feeding to date.

This morning, they got up, they were energetic and seemed like they wanted fed, however when offered the bottle, they both refused to take it.

I've tried again this afternoon, they still aren't interested.  They are in the pasture with the other goats and I noticed yesterday that they are indeed eating grass and weeds now.

One little girl looks like she may have had a slightly softer poop at some point.  They will run to me, one of them leaps into my arms, but when offered the bottle, she has no interest.  Instead she falls asleep in my arms.  I'm also not sure if they're a bit wobbly today or not?  Its hard to tell since they are klutzy kids anyway.

Should I be concerned about floppy kid syndrome?  Is there anything I could do at this point to avoid any potential complications?


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## ksalvagno (Mar 20, 2012)

What shots have they had so far? Did mom have a CDT shot before she gave birth?


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## dianneS (Mar 20, 2012)

Mom had CDT.  The kids have not had any shots yet.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 20, 2012)

Could they be nursing on one of the goat that they are with in the field?


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## dianneS (Mar 20, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> Could they be nursing on one of the goat that they are with in the field?


No there are no lactating does in the field with them.

They are behaving perfectly normally.  They chase after me, they jump into my arms.

I gave them a little baking soda today to see if that would make a difference.  They've had probios and a little nutri-drench recently.  They're peeing and pooping normally.

Only one of the two has ever really eagerly ravaged the bottle to the point that I felt I had to cut her off before she ate too much.  The other has never cared for the bottle much and will suck down a decent amount of milk at her last feeding of the day, but with her, I sometimes still have to put the nipple in her mouth she won't always take it willingly like her sister.  She quite often will just chew on and play with the nipple.

Today, it almost seemed as if we were back to square one with both of them.  No real interest in the bottle.  Sometimes they would take it willingly, have a few sips and then they're done.  If I put the nipple in their mouths they would chew on it and play with it and make a big fuss getting milk everywhere.  I don't understand?  I would think by this point they'd be pros with the bottle and eagerly sucking down as much as I'll give them.  But they're not?

Today will be day eight since we started bottle feeding.  I'm using cows milk too, not milk replacer.  They've had no problems with it at all so far.


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

The babies are doing okay.  One is taking her bottle just fine.  Actually, she is ravanous about it.

However, the bigger girl is still difficult to feed.  She will not take the nipple willingly, I have to put it in her mouth.  Sometimes she sucks, but only very briefly.  Most of the time I have to hold her mouth closed around the nipple to prevent her from spitting it out and even then she just chews on it and plays with it and swallows what milk dribbles into her mouth.

The strange thing is that this bigger doeling was the first one to catch on to bottle feeding and was sucking very well at 8 days old.  They're now 17 days old and have been bottle fed the last 10 days.  This one doe acts like we're back to square one and doesn't know how to nurse from a bottle?

She usually only sucks the bottle and takes in 4-8 oz. in one feeding after she has gone half a day, to nearly all day without much else to eat.  This morning I figured she'd be good and hungry because she hadn't eaten much yesterday, but she's not?

She has no other symptoms.  Not as spunky as the other doe but her behavior is normal.


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## wannacow (Mar 23, 2012)

Would she drink out of a bucket?


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 23, 2012)

Have you tried giving them baking soda treatments?  I mix it in one of the bottles every know and then. 

But if she isn't taking a bottle well, you may need to mix in a little corn syrup or mollasses and force feed it. 

Putting the milk in a bowel, may work.  

Honestly, If you can't get her to drink more, you are going to see her reach a point of not doing very well.  Not saying that to upset you. But her system can't maintain on that little bit of food day after day.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 23, 2012)

The not as spunky is a sign that she is starting to go downhill. Like someone else mentioned, try putting some corn syrup in the milk to make it sweeter and also see if she will drink from a pan or bucket. You could also try syringe feeding her.

Are you using whole milk from the store and did you buy a different brand recently? I know someone who bought a different brand of whole milk and the goat refused to drink it.


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

I did give baking soda in a syringe the other day.

I have been adding corn syrup to their milk.  I even added a little extra to this girl's bottle.  I honestly don't know if this is a different brand of milk or not?  I started them on raw cows milk and then switched to store bought whole milk for convenience.  I could make a run to the creamery and get some more raw milk.

I've been reading online that this could be the early signs of enterotoxemia?  Could that be the case?

Should I innoculate her with C&D antitoxin?


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## poorboys (Mar 23, 2012)

I usually keep my bottle babies in a different area than the rest, that way I know what they are eating and what their not. they all take bottles fine. maybe you can try that.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 23, 2012)

dianneS said:
			
		

> I did give baking soda in a syringe the other day.
> 
> I have been adding corn syrup to their milk.  I even added a little extra to this girl's bottle.  I honestly don't know if this is a different brand of milk or not?  I started them on raw cows milk and then switched to store bought whole milk for convenience.  I could make a run to the creamery and get some more raw milk.
> 
> ...


the C&D antitoxin may not be a bad idea at this point. 

I don't think you are suppose to give them raw cows milk, I believe it needs to be homogenized so the particles are smaller and more digestable. I  think I read that on hear at one point. I would stick with the store bought milk.  

I am sure this is super frustrating. I had a kid a few years ago I tried to get on a bottle that wasn't doing well on mom, and it didn't go well at all. 

I would invest in a really really good small pelleted starter feed for her, and really good alfalfa hay, and see if you can get more protein and calories in her that way. 

You may want to consider looking into tube feeding her a couple times today and tomorrow, if she isn't taking the bottle. It may make her feel better. 

I have detailed instructions for that if you need them.


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

My husband is picking up some C&D antitoxin on his way to work, I'll have it tonight.  Meanwhile, I may try some pepto and forcing some more milk on her?


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 23, 2012)

I honestly think her biggest problem is that she just isn't getting enough to eat. Stubborn.


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

She does seem awfully stubborn.  I just don't get it since she was the first one to take to the bottle??  Her sister is an absolute pig and jumps all over me to get at the bottle.

I thought maybe she was learning to hate the bottle because I constantly have to force it on her, prying her mouth open.  I thought perhaps it was traumatic for her, so yesterday I didn't force her.  I let her decide and she really didn't take much at all.

This morning I went back to holding her mouth around the nipple so she couldn't spit it out as well as squeezing some milk into her mouth (which she would swallow) but never latched on and sucked?

I've been on a wild goose chase for this C&D antitoxin.  I drove to a TSC on the other side of the mountain (25miles one way) because they told me over the phone that they had the stuff.  I get there, and nope, its not the right stuff.  That store calls a TSC near my husband's workplace (which I had called earlier this morning and told that they did NOT have the C&D antitoxin in stock) and guess what???  Now they have it!  They're holding a bottle for my husband to pick up today.  Hopefully its the right stuff....   Talk about frustrating.


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## redtailgal (Mar 23, 2012)

I had one that was pretty darn stubborn about the bottle.   I ended up feeding him where he couldn't see the other goats (they were a distraction), and had to "cuddle" him to feed him.  I'd shave him under one arm (his shoulders in my arm pit)...........and a few time in the beginning, I took a dish towel and covered his eyes.  Covering his eyes seemed to help the most.

Good luck!


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

Well, I just gave her a dose of pepto, a squirt of nutri-drench and she took the bottle for about three sucks and then didn't want it anymore.

I took her away from her sister, since the little one literally flings herself on top of us the entire time I'm trying to feed the bigger one.  She actually took the nipple herself and like I said, sucked about three or four times, then that was it.  I pried her mouth open and held the bottle in place, she would chew on the nipple and swallow really  slowly, but not really suck.  Then she'd fuss and not want anymore.  I took a syringe and forced some milk down her throat, but not much.  She's so tiny, her mouth can only accommodate a small syringe.

My husband is picking up the CD antitoxin tonight and we'll give her some of that.

I don't know what else to do except tube feed her?


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## redtailgal (Mar 23, 2012)

I'd suggest a shot of B12........to stimulate the appetite a little.  Your vet could probably get you a single dose or you *may* can find a vial at your local farmstore.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 23, 2012)

You should be able to find B Complex at TSC and I would definitely give her a shot of that too.


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

I went out to check on her and possibly try another bottle.  She's lively and came running to me with her sister.  She seems perkier this afternoon, and looks much better than she did this morning.  

I thought she might take more milk since she was acting hungry, nibbling my hair and her sister's ears, so I took a bottle out to her.  I offered it to her and she latched on and started to suck (or so I thought)...  I was thrilled and thinking we had success!!!    Then I realized it was the wrong goat...   I was feeding the little piggy sister, boy did I feel stupid...   I tried the problem child with the bottle and nope, not interested.  

I guess I'll try the b-complex and the cd antitoxin tonight when my husband brings the stuff home.  Not much else I can do at this point.  I may go out and try to offer her some pellets???


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## ksalvagno (Mar 23, 2012)

It wouldn't hurt to put out pellets and water. Also, if you haven't tried different nipples, then you may want to do that too. What type are you using now?


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## dianneS (Mar 23, 2012)

We've tried different nipples.  Lamb nipples, human baby bottles and the girls finally took to the Pritchard nipple.

I've got water hay and pellets out for them, however the chickens keep stealing the pellets.  I'll keep them in the coop tomorrow.  

This little girl has always nibbled hay and grass much more so than her sister.

I'm heading out to the barn soon for another attempt at feeding and my husband should be home soon with the cd antitoxin...


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## Queen Mum (Mar 23, 2012)

It won't hurt them to have a CD/T shot, it might make them a little miserable for a day.  BUT switching milk could be the issue.  And are you giving them the milk nice and warm?  They will not drink cold or cool milk.


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2012)

Yeah, the milk is always warm.

I'm wondering if its not the early stages of enterotoxemia??  The first day that the two of them really caught on to the bottle and guzzled down their first real meal (rather than 1-2 oz. at a time) they were both a little "off" the next day and didn't want to eat.

I'm thinking that the little one fought it off on her own and is fine now, eating like a pig.  The other one has been taking less and less milk each day, yet her belly is not as hollow as it should be for not having eaten much, its still slightly round.  I finally observed a poop yesterday and it was a string of very soft, yellow beads, stuck together.  Almost looked like cat poop, only softer.  She's also started grinding her teeth.

She got her SQ therapeutic dose of C&D antitoxin (not CD T vaccine) last night, and I read that it can be given orally too.  I'm doing that in addition to pepto (not at the same time, I want the c &d to be well absorbed) and we'll see how she does.  I don't think she's in so much pain that she requires banamine yet.  I may incorporate some tetracycline if I feel its necessary.

I'm hoping that this C&D antitoxin does the trick.  


*UPDATE*  I was out to the barn this morning.  She's not eating yet, but she pooped last night, a LOT!  Two or three BIG clumped, yellow cat type turds, pretty soft but not runny.  I'm relieved that she is pooping.

The C&D antitoxin bottle indicates that it can be given orally (huge relief since I have no one here to hold her for injections today, plus she pitched a huge fit last night when we gave her the SQ shot) so I gave her a dose this morning.  I'm going to give her a standard dose every two hours orally for the time being.  I am glad we got that initial big dose injected into her last night though.

Still....


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## ksalvagno (Mar 24, 2012)

I hope the antitoxin works for you.


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I hope the antitoxin works for you.


So do I.  She still doesn't _act _terribly sick or weak, she's not at death's door or anything, but kids can go down so quick.  I hope whatever is wrong, we've caught it at the early stage and she'll improve soon!

Once the meds have had some time to do their work, if she still isn't eating, I'm going to tube her.  Not much else I _can _do??


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## heathen (Mar 24, 2012)

I would check her for worms and give a medicated feed. take a poo sampl have it checked or just worm her to be safe.


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2012)

Well, she took about 3-4 oz of milk today!  I tried the pritchard nipple and the old lamb nipples, alternating back and forth until she took the lamb nipple willingly without me shoving it into her mouth!

She sucked slooooooooooooooowly.  It took forever and I did have to nearly force some of it on her.  But the fact that she took the nipple and actually sucked on her own is huge!  She hasn't attempted eating any pellets yet.  Neither of them have actually.  Even went I crush them up and put them in their mouths.  They just don't know that pellets are food yet, but I still have them nearby in case they want to try some.

She's not exactly spunky yet, and she's still a little hunched up and unhappy looking.  Not grinding her teeth as much.  I think I'm going to stop medicating her for a while and see how she does.  Just give her a little break so she's not overwhelmed with meds and pepto and go from there.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 24, 2012)

You can try adding warm water to the pellets so they get mushy.  She might like it that way.  Just a few tablespoons of pellets at a time, though.  No sense in wasting it if she doesn't eat it.


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## dianneS (Mar 24, 2012)

Whoo Hoo!!!  We have success!!   

I all but force fed her 3-4 oz today at noon.  By 6 PM, I offered her the bottle (didn't even pick her up and hold her in my arms) she took the nipple, latched on and went to town like there's no tomorrow!!  I had to stop her at about 6 oz.  She would have taken more, but I don't want her to over-do it since she's been off for so many days.  I'd rather give her smaller more frequent meals at this point and work back up to where she should be gradually.

I could tell as soon as I stepped into the barn that she was markedly improved.  Her little tail was flipping and she was eager for the bottle.  Her tail was going the whole time she was nursing.  When I started feeding her sister, she began fighting for the bottle.  When it was all gone, she was climbing my legs trying to get me to give her more!  

I saw behavior today that she hasn't exhibited at all before.  She's a new goat!  

I think we're in the clear at this point, hoping she continues to get better.  

Thanks everyone for all the help and concern!


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## Queen Mum (Mar 24, 2012)

Isn't it great when they feel all better!?!


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2012)

It sure is!!!  

She took another 4 oz. last night at bedtime (just three hours after her previous feeding) and she just took 8 oz. this morning like a trooper!  What a relief!


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 25, 2012)




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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2012)

I found so much conflicting information about the proper dosages of C&D antitoxin that I came to the conclusion that its just a matter of playing around and seeing what works.
I followed the directions on the bottle for the therapeutic dose being double, but still wasn't sure how much to give a 5 lb. doeling?  I found info somewhere that recommended 3cc's for a kid under 12 weeks of age, so I used that as a starting point.

I also found conflicting info about C&D being used orally.  My bottle however, was labled for intravenous, SQ, IM _or _oral usage.


If anyone ever needs the info for future reference this is what I did:

2 1/2 week old 5lb. doe, not taking her bottle for nearly two days, grinding teeth, general malaise etc.

6cc's C&D antitoxin at 10 PM injected SQ.

3cc's C&D antitoxin at 8 AM orally.  One hour later pepto-bismol.

I repeated this every two hours until noon, totaling 15cc's.  Then gave her a break from all the meds.  

Tried the bottle shortly after noon, she took some milk but not too eager.

6 PM tried the bottle again and she eagerly took 4 oz, would have taken more but didn't want to over-do it.

10 PM she took another 4 oz. willingly.

8 AM 8 oz of milk fervently!!  

She is now bouncing around healthy and back to her normal feeding schedule.


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## Queen Mum (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the info.  I'm going to keep that one handy for reference.  I would never have thought about the issue of enterotoxemia.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 25, 2012)

/thanks for sharing.


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info.  I'm going to keep that one handy for reference.  I would never have thought about the issue of enterotoxemia.


I would have never considered enterotoxemia either.  This site helped a great deal.  http://goat-link.com/content/view/62/94/

The fact that this was all triggered by her largest meal, since being bottle trained, was a clue.  Also, her first day off the bottle she was very hollow and obviously hadn't eaten.  However, gradually her belly became a little rounder and rounder, which didn't make sense since she hadn't eaten for nearly two days.  I started thinking that perhaps it was that milk in her belly lying in there going sour and she was starting to bloat every so slightly.

After her first injection of the C&D antitoxin, she pooped A LOT and I figured that it must be that nasty un-digested toxic crap finally being passed.  She's been improving ever since.  So I can only assume that this was indeed the case.  I'm just glad she's better!


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## nomad (Mar 25, 2012)

dianneS said:
			
		

> I have had two bottle babies for one week now.  They are two weeks old today.  They were with their mom for the first week.
> 
> It wasn't easy getting them on the bottle.  It took a few days for them to catch on.  They are now taking the bottle just fine, however they are not as ravenous about it as I read that kids could be.  They usually only take about 4 oz. per feeding. I figured this is good, I won't have to worry about over feeding them.  I've been giving them more frequent, smaller meals.  Sometimes only 2 oz or so per feeding about 2-3 hours apart.
> 
> ...


Hope your little ones are doing well now.  
Just to help with a little deeper understanding of what is going on behind the scenes so you can prepare for future kiddings, I will offer some evidence as to why they can develop enterotoxemia (and a host of other illnesses).  Inflammation is the general medical term for the body's reaction to stress (there are many types of stressors).  When we used to feed grain to our Boer goats and dorper sheep, we would commonly have enterotoxemic symptoms present in a small proportion of the kids and lambs.  We would treat for CDT and would save approximately 1/2 of those infected (we kept several hundred animals at the time). 
Of those surviving the treatment, we noticed that they tended to be, at the very least, stunted in growth or very slow to grow.  Some would die later of an apparent different complication.  We soon learned to cull any animal that we had to treat since practically 100% of these animals were detrimental to our operation (financially as well as management wise).  We have since come to determine through dissecting medical research that inflammation is a state of health which is a function of nutrition.  This statement is quite abstract so I will give more detail.  
We stopped feeding any and all processed foods (grain) to our ruminants and threw away the bottles of vaccines and medications that we had in our medical kit (it was growing quite large).  It took 2-3 years to see the impact of improved nutrition in our animals and the subsequent vitality in their offspring.  Ridding one's body of stored toxins takes a while depending on the extent to which one has been exposed.  We now raise our sheep, goats, and cattle on grass only (100% grass with absolutely no off-the-farm inputs other than minerals and salt) and have not seen a single case of enterotexemia, excessive worm loads (we do not deworm), or chronic diseases.  In a nutshell, when you feed a polyunsaturated fatty acid (vegetable grains or their oils such as soybean and corn), you are creating a hypothyroid environment.  The thyroid is responsible for body temperature and metabolic regulation.  Studies show that a low metabolism is the precursor to inflammation which is essentially disease and illness.  Animals fed a natural diet maintain a healthy metabolism and therefore are able to ward off innumerable diseases on their own (just like humans that are healthy).  
One that continues to feed grains to ruminants will have to be mindful that antibiotics will be necessary to help a certain percentage of their herd survive when inflammation strikes.  Been there, done that.  My wife and I are now approaching a 100% survival rate on the offspring from our goats and sheep.  I do not expect to ever reach 100% since their is the occasional mother that does not eat sufficiently during gestation and causes one of her young to be compromised in utero.  Again, this ewe/doe is culled so as not to perpetuate unwanted behavior.  Studies also show that the more socially challenged members of a herd/flock are less aggressive at fully intaking necessary nutrients and can be detrimental to themselves so it is very feasible that mortality will  exist since there are always animals that are low on the totem pole.   We currently have a doe that is exhibiting this behavior and will be culled.

Whichever way one chooses to go is a personal choice and should be respected.  I have lived and managed on both sides of the line and, for me, there is no going back.  Farming is now very stress free and enjoyable.  Hope this helps and I wish you success in your venture.


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2012)

> Hope your little ones are doing well now.


Thanks, she is doing great now.

And thanks for all the info.  These kids came from does who are raised only on grass and hay, never grain.   My friend who raises these goats may not be considered 100% organic just yet, but she's working on it.  She uses minimal vaccinations as well as antibiotics and medications, if she has to de-worm its with an herbal wormer.  She's had pretty good success with both her meat and dairy goats.


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## SDBoerGoats (Mar 25, 2012)

Diane, this is so interesting and such a learning experience, thanks so much for posting your story. I had no idea that you could give C&D antitoxin that often, and orally. I am going to use this for reference if I ever have a baby who acts this way! So glad to hear that she is eating and doing well now.


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## dianneS (Mar 25, 2012)

SDBoerGoats said:
			
		

> Diane, this is so interesting and such a learning experience, thanks so much for posting your story. I had no idea that you could give C&D antitoxin that often, and orally. I am going to use this for reference if I ever have a baby who acts this way! So glad to hear that she is eating and doing well now.


Yes you can give it that often and orally too.  You really can't go wrong with c&d antitoxin as any excess is just peed out by the goat, you can't overdose them with it.  I found to much conflicting information on dosages.  Everything from 3cc's-10cc's for a tiny goat!  Apparently its just "whatever works"!  I couldn't bring myself to try and inject 10cc's into a kid this small.  She pitched a fit just trying to get 6 into her and it left a big bubble under the skin that was absorbed by morning.

If she would have been in worse shape, I probably would have given her more than one injection, but since she wasn't too bad yet, I switched to oral dosing.  I read that kids who _are _at death's door can be given C&D intravenously to get it into their system the fastest.  Thank heaven I didn't have to do that since I don't even know how!  I'd have had to call my sister the nurse for that one!


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## Roll farms (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm really late to this party but   on a job well done, DianneS!


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## ksalvagno (Mar 26, 2012)

Great that she is doing well now.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

Bad news.... we had a relapse in symptoms.  She was taking her bottle really well, and the first time she took a full 12 oz (which we worked up to gradually) she was refusing her bottle the very next day.  Her sister takes 12 oz at every feeding and would take more.  She's a normal little goat, sucking down that bottle as fast as she can as if she's starving and then wanting more.  No problems with her at all.

She's still not "floppy" or anything like that.  The only thing that is similar to floppy kid syndrome is her lack of suckling ability.  Its almost as if her tongue gets in the way and she's not able to suck??

I've gone back to treating her with baking soda, pepto, and C&D antitoxin.  I'm also giving her electrolytes this time and I gave her some B-complex.

The woman I got these babies from is having trouble with one of her bottle babies too, same symptoms.  This is frustrating.  Even though this little one isn't "that bad", I know she not 100% and she's not feeling well.  Her hair is "fluffed up", she hunches up from time to time and she grinds her teeth any time I put anything down her throat with a syringe.  Her poops are normal pellets this time though.  She does pee a lot, always has??

*UPDATE*  This morning she is hungry, she wants to eat, she can't suckle.  She's physically unable to suck.  She's never been very good at it, she would suck a little and take frequent breaks, catch on and suckle really well for a day or two, then go back to chewing the nipple.  She has never been the voracious nurser her sister is.  I think I'll have to tube her, but only after I'm sure her belly is empty and her system functioning.  She's still a bit round for having gone 24 hours without milk (just meds and supplements).  Of course I'm out of BoSe and TSC is sold out too!!!!  Looks like I'll be going on another wild goose chase for goat meds today.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 31, 2012)

I hope things start looking up soon for you.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm really hoping at this point that selenium will do the trick.  I just need to get my hands on some!  

Anyone know of any selenium substitutes for BoSe?  I know that they sell a gel, but I don't think TSC has that either.  I was thinking of trying human selenium orally, or maybe giving her a dose of Red Cell for horses... that has some selenium??

Good thing is, she is still pretty energetic and positively begging me to feed her, she just can't suck!  I've been giving her electrolytes via syringe.  I'm not ready to give her milk just yet, I want to make sure she's pooping and not bloating first.

This is so frustrating.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 31, 2012)

dianneS said:
			
		

> I'm really hoping at this point that selenium will do the trick.  I just need to get my hands on some!
> 
> Anyone know of any selenium substitutes for BoSe?  I know that they sell a gel, but I don't think TSC has that either.  I was thinking of trying human selenium orally, or maybe giving her a dose of Red Cell for horses... that has some selenium??
> 
> ...


I was reading you last comment and thinking "selenium"  I don't have an answer for a substitute, we always use Bo-se.  But If I have a kid with a poor sucking reflex, I always reach for the bo-se.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

I have just called every TSC in a tri-county area an no one has BoSe!!!  I also tried Agway... no luck.

This is so frustrating!

I gave her 6cc's of Red Cell in the meantime.  I don't know what else to do other than call the vet or order the stuff online and have it overnighted?  I may go to the healthfood store and get some selenium capsules and try those for now?


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## ksalvagno (Mar 31, 2012)

Certainly the selenium gels for humans will work in a pinch. Better to get BoSe but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. To me it sounds like more is going on there. Especially since the breeder has another one like that. Do you know if the breeder gives BoSe and CD/T? Usually I don't like to rush into antibiotics but I'm wondering if they would help in this case. It seems like you might have to throw everything at this kid and see what sticks and makes her better. She may have some septicemia going on too.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

> Do you know if the breeder gives BoSe and CD/T?


I don't know anymore.  I thought she did, but I may have to ask again.  The breeders little doeling that wasn't taking the bottle died the other night.  She even put her back in with the dam and still found her dead in the morning.  

I got some 200 mcg capsules of selenium at the health food store, I'm going to try that.  I'm also going to see if I can get her to take milk from a bowl or bucket, but I'm not keeping my fingers crossed.

Absolutely NO ONE has BoSe right now... I've tried everywhere.  The local TSC manager said that they don't carry it at all.  Anyone know where to get it online?  Meanwhile I'm checking with friends to see if they have a dose or two they can sell to me!

*UPDATE*  Her suckling reflex is back.  She can suck okay, I gave her some electrolytes, no milk right now.  However, she only sucks a few times, then stops to swallow hard, then I hear her belly gurgle.  She is getting a bit rounder than she was before and her belly is firm even though she's had nothing but pepto, baking soda, meds and electrolytes for the past 24 hours.

I'm thinking of treating for bloat?


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## Mamaboid (Mar 31, 2012)

Bo-se is RX from your vet.  Don't know of anywhere you can get it oc.  You could try the gel in the meantime. TSC usually carries it.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

Mamaboid said:
			
		

> Bo-se is RX from your vet.  Don't know of anywhere you can get it oc.  You could try the gel in the meantime. TSC usually carries it.


None of my TSC's carry the gel either.  It doesn't seem to be a selenium issue anymore.  It seems like she's in pain for some reason?  She's not bloated, but when she tries to eat she grinds her teeth after each swallow?

I'm so confused?  I don't know what to do anymore.  A friend told me that forcing baking soda is not good, sugar in electrolyte mixtures can be bad etc etc....  Just like the argument between milk replacer or cows milk???  First I was told no milk replacer, use cows milk, now I'm being told (now that I'm having issues with her) no cows milk, use milk replacer!!  

She will take a bottle now, but I'm not sure what to put in it??  Electrolytes (no the sugar is bad) cows milk (no milk replacer is better) milk replacer (no cows milk is better)... everything I'm told someone else tells me the opposite!  I would like for her to be free of symptoms before trying to feed her again.  She acts like its painful to eat??


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## Mamaboid (Mar 31, 2012)

At this point, I think maybe a vet might be your best answer, it seems to be progressing somehow, but looks like it is difficult to get a handle on.  Sorry this is happening for you, hope you get some answers soon.  If it were me, I would opt for natural milk over replacer, and baking soda is good.  But like everything else, this is all a matter of personal experience and preference.  I don't think there are any concrete rights or wrongs.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

I think I will have to call the vet on Monday.  

I have a friend who raises goats organically, and contradicts pretty much all traditional remedies and medications.  I'm so confused.


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## redtailgal (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm sorry.  I feel your frustration.

There are so many different methods to raising goats, it seems.  It does get confusing, esp when you are trying to learn, as I am.

Everyone does things there own way, and if it works for them, they naturally feel that their way is the "right" way.  You'll find YOUR right way soon enough.

Consult with your vet, and follow your own gut.  Hang in there, no matter what the outcome of this, you are getting a valuable education and the opportunity to form your own opinions.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 31, 2012)

I think you better call the vet on Monday. It really sounds like something more is going on. I would give her electrolytes. The sugar in them won't hurt her. Cows milk is better than most powdered replacers. I have heard of too many kids getting sick/dying from milk replacer.


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## dianneS (Mar 31, 2012)

I had her inside this evening with a diaper on.  I broke down and gave her about 2 oz of cows milk.  She was so hungry.  I laid on the couch with her and she had all sorts of good belly sounds going on.  Later I took her outside, removed her diaper and there was a soft poo in it, then all of a sudden she started pooping runny green poo, then peed!  The strange thing is that the green poo smelled almost sweet and fruity?  I can't describe the smell, but not like poo at all???

*UPDATE*  She looked good this morning, was eager to eat.  I did not give her cows milk.  I mixed up a concoction of a few homeopathic cell salts, colloidal silver, B-Complex, trace minerals, a little himalayan salt, a dash of kelp and some cholorella.  I gave this to her in a bottle of warm distilled water.  It can't hurt her.  I just wanted to give her something to hold her over until I go to the store... I'm getting some pasteurized goat milk for her.

She did poo again during the night, it was lighter in color and brown not green, and soft but not runny or watery. I'm thinking it was probably that little bit of milk she had last night?  Oh I had forgotten that I did give her a little oil yesterday so that would explain the runny green poop last night.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 1, 2012)

That is great that you are trying everything you can. It is just a puzzle what exactly is going on. Hopefully the vet can shed some light on it.


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## dianneS (Apr 1, 2012)

I just checked on her, she's still hunched up and unhappy looking.  She's got some runny poo on her butt, both green and yellow????

Its rainy and cold here and the weather has been fluctuating dramatically... not helping matters.  I'm frustrated.  Hope the vet knows something.

*UPDATE* I got some goat milk at the grocery store.  I bought all that they had!  I gave her a few small meals today, and she's lookin' pretty good, but I'm not holding my breath.  She's actually really happy today, I spent a lot of time with her.  I haven't been able to observe a poop in a while, but she's running and eating grass, begging me for the bottle sucking my fingers and she's no longer grinding her teeth, shivering and she's not hunched up.  Her tail is up and it flipping!  The only difference between her and her sister is that she's still not quite as much of a wild woman as her healthy sister.  She's not as playful and doesn't run as fast, but I wouldn't either after a few rough days like she has had recently.

I hope she is on the mend, I really do.  Maybe it was just the cows milk?  Perhaps it just doesn't agree with her?  I'm hoping she does better on the goat milk and we'll be out of the woods soon.  

*UPDATE*  I just heard from the breeder, her little doeling that she lost was on goats milk the whole time???  And she had problems anyway.  I'm a bit worried.  Funny thing is that this goats problems started not only after having her first big meal, but after switching from raw to pasturized cows milk?  She had no problems on small amounts of raw milk?  I don't know if its the quantity or the type of milk or if it has anything to do with the milk at all?


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## dianneS (Apr 4, 2012)

I think my little girl is going to be okay.

She's back to a normal feeding schedule.  She's on goats milk all the time now.  I don't know if that made the difference or not, but I don't want to risk it by trying cow's milk again.  If she's good with goat milk, then goat milk it will be!  She's taking all of her bottles eagerly, pretty decent amounts per feeding too with no negative ramifications, she's getting more energetic each day, pooping and peeing normally.  She's eating grass between bottle feedings and learning that grass and weeds will take away her hunger pangs.  I've offered her some weeds that are known for their medicinal properties and she usually eats them.  Can't get her to try burdock though... I have that stuff everywhere!

I hope I'm not jinxing things by speaking too soon, but I do think she's going to be just fine.


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## wannacow (Apr 4, 2012)

Glad she's doing well.    If you get her to eat burdock, let me in on your secret...  We have it EVERYWHERE!!!!


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## dianneS (Apr 5, 2012)

I wish I could get the horses to eat it too.  Burdock has such wonderful medicinal properties and is so good for the liver.  The only people I know who can get their horses to eat burdock are those with no pasture or horses in stalls all the time.  I guess those horses are so desperate for something fresh and green that they'll eat anything!


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 5, 2012)

I see mine eating the burdock every know and then, well, at least a few of them do.  Glad it is going well.


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## dianneS (Apr 20, 2012)

Well, my little girl is doing fine.  She's eating okay and she's finally begun running, jumping, head-butting, playing and acting silly like her sister.  I'm so relieved!  Not long now until I can wean her, then hopefully we'll be in the clear!


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## ksalvagno (Apr 20, 2012)

Glad she is doing better.


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