# INFORMATION FARM WORKSHOPS: CONSIDERING A DIFFERENT APPROACH.



## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 25, 2017)

Last week we attended one such event and it was in fact quite interesting all of the speakers were very knowledgeable and experienced in their field .They presented their subjects clearly although the focus was quite narrow. In the days following I submitted some comment to the organizers, but the experience got me to thinking”What do the people attending really need from an event like this?”

The first question was “who were the producers who attended”? .I suspect that they were small/medium livestock people .I think you could compare it to third world farmers that receive “aid programs” designed for large scale farmers and company farms in” first world situations. “It’s been my experience over the years that the “big boys” attend field days organized by large suppliers to the livestock industry’s and backed up by the local stores who stock their products.

If you think about the land and its production worth in your district the “very best” is “tightly held” and has been in one family for generations mostly, the knowledge gained over time is “passed” from one generation to the next on the performance of the land under different climate conditions, much the same as the herd/flock knowledge is passed from one generation to the next (that is if the farmer allows it).Although the change from a Winter rainfall to a Summer storm climate will require re-thinking  on even the “best country” into the future.

At one stage a presenter asked “can you identify the production grasses on your farm”? I think at least half of the group could not.IMO the next question should have,” been can you identify the “weeds” on your farm”? (But it never came).

Hobby farmers as distinct from “the blockies” require information that they can base their farms decisions on going forward, most have off-farm income and are prepared to spend it if it delivers an outcome they are happy with.

The type of information which I feel would be valuable to the decision making process would be “an accurate picture of the lands “actual carrying capacity”, it’s potential to hold water in the landscape, retention of nutrient load and how to stop all the water “rushing” down the creek in a thunderstorm. Understanding the sequence of growth the grasses they have to best utilize them for example Kangaroo Grass /White Top (wallaby grass), Poa Tussock flowering, Red Leg Grass, Wild Sorghum and Microlaena. Along with the exotic sps which previous owners tried and “failed” to establish until we modified our management to allow their growth and re-seeding. Fencing is the most reliable way of protecting the different stands of the grasses and that way you can graze in the same sequence that the grasses perform.

This item caught my eye while writing this post. This new group of “young” farmers will be looking for help and education, so what are we going to teach them?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...age:d_flagship3_feed;c2LX6q7UT6CxHhN4rGdMNA==

If we present the information in a way that is of value to the large farming groups ,you may find the new farmers are placed in the same position as the way foreign air is delivered and the same problems subsistence farmers face will be replicated in our groups of “hobby farmers” and the only “winners” will be the partners whose products are recommended.

It seems to me that what the new farmers need is information which relates to the scale and knowledge of the recipients.

As always I look forward to any “feedback” you may wish to offer on the subject.


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## Latestarter (Nov 25, 2017)

I think you've identified a problem with many symposiums, right on the spot. Here we have County extension agents, which are public employees who are paid a pittance and asked to do the job of a team of professionals. One person to handle all the farmers/producers in the county. My county doesn't have one at the moment... The last one quit and a replacement hasn't been hired/applied for the position. So we here have to rely on assistance from the CEA from a neighboring county, and he has his own folks to deal with... we don't rank high on his priority list. In addition, though many CEA's are top notch and go out of their way to do what they can to help, especially small farmers, there are some who don't have a clue, have no interest in actually helping and don't have the knowledge or experience to help even if they desired to do so.

Big agribusiness and their political lobbyists with their corporate dollars are conspiring against the small farmer as well. New legislation/taxes/fees/regulation is always being submitted/passed that put a severe strain on small family farms and even hobby farms for personal consumption. He who has control of the food supply has control of the population...


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## greybeard (Nov 25, 2017)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> If you think about the land and its production worth in your district the “very best” is “tightly held” and has been in one family for generations mostly, the knowledge gained over time is “passed” from one generation to the next on the performance of the land under different climate conditions, much the same as the herd/flock knowledge is passed from one generation to the next (that is if the farmer allows it)......It seems to me that what the new farmers need is information which relates to the scale and knowledge of the recipients.



In this country, we are seeing that "tightly held" land inherited by a younger generation that has little or no interest in agriculture, the land subdivided and sold off as homesites for suburban dwellers...as many little tiny lots as can be squeezed into an area.

New farmers..old farmers, the process is the same, the process is just scaled down. 

The preoccupation I see with re-inventing the wheel is depressing.


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## Bossroo (Nov 25, 2017)

All we have to do is look at most of the posts right here on this forum. Their attitude is not will my animals/ crops make me a profit so that I can make a comfortable / satisfying living now and into the future  in this venture which translates to best stuardship to the land that produced the livelyhood. Instead they view their animals as pets  and all of their efforts has to be "organic " or notheing, so they put all of their efforts toward a warm and fuzzy feeling, then  they post their personal views as the way to go to any new commer that asks for help. Followed with if anything goes wrong, they wonder what happened and post their misfornune followed by don't beat yourself up, it's not your fault. The cycle continues so long as they have an outside income that is greater than their hobby expenses.


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## Latestarter (Nov 25, 2017)

Really GB, I believe it's a 2 pronged problem. We are seeing individual farmers with land holdings and children who WOULD want to take over the farm, being driven out by big agribusiness who want to own it all. In addition, many smaller family farms are being sold for development, in many cases because the owners were left with little choice. Urban sprawl has spread out and engulfed family farm properties and made it too expensive/non profitable to be kept as farm land. Taxing authorities have made it more valuable as something other than a farm. Contrary to that, many (me being one) are moving away from suburbia and trying to get back to a simpler (misleading term to say the least) way of life... "farming" for myself. Not necessarily for profit, but to become more self sufficient.

@Bossroo As is virtually always the case with you, the name and intent of this entire site/forum is completely disregarded and often lamented and denigrated by you. This site is titled "back yard herds", not "farming for profit". The key element of the title being BACK YARD, indicating small (virtually no) land holdings/suburbia and NOT farming for profit. I can think of half a dozen people on this forum that could be considered "professional farmers", you being one of them, and that was in the past, as you have stated that you are no longer in that employ. That does NOT make your knowledge and experience of lesser value, however, your constant belittling and putting down of folks who ARE hobby farmers for doing exactly what the title implies, gets old and really causes many anger, frustration, aggravation & in the end to just block you out or if you prefer, ignore you.

I have tagged you in the past when folks have asked questions that I thought you might be able to help with. I normally don't anymore because I'm concerned you'll respond as you did above. Things go wrong on professional farms just as they do on hobby farms. Just because you did it for a lifetime and had the initial experience 50 years ago, does not remove the fact that you too had problems when you were first starting. You too made mistakes. You too had to ask for help from those with more experience than you. Everyone has to start somewhere and nobody is born knowing everything they need to know. We all have to learn what we don't know. And we don't have to use everything we do know.

Just because we are hobby farmers and not professional farmers doesn't mean that we can't/won't/don't want to improve on what we're doing. It doesn't mean that we're NOT looking to be more cost effective. It doesn't mean that we don't want to learn better, faster, more effective and efficient ways of doing things. It doesn't mean that we can't seek out answers to things we don't know and want to or need to learn.

It DOES mean that we don't have to kill every sick or non conforming animal because it's "costing us profits". It does mean that we CAN keep our animals as pets, rather than a potential dinner, if we choose to do so. And yes, it even means we can do so "at a loss" rather than at a profit. We can do it, paying for it from other income sources specifically because what we have is a BACK YARD HERD, NOT a farm for profit. This is a forum, designed for folks to discuss and put stuff out there, including personal views and experiences. When something does go wrong, often times it's NOT the person's fault, and we CAN feel bad and lament the loss, and we don't NEED to beat ourselves up. But as stated above, we're TRYING to learn to prevent this from happening... major reason for most of us being here. I'm sure you've never lost an animal without a complete understanding of how and why it happened. And of course it would never have been a case of your personal mistake or lack of knowledge/experience.

Despite the fact that all of this has been pointed out to you repeatedly (and I'm doing so once again), your approach persists. Quite honestly, it's tiring. If you have information or teachings that address a specific question posed, please try to provide it if you wish to do so, without the disparaging, scornful, diatribes about profit being the single most important aspect of everything, and the insinuation that everyone who believes/operates differently than you or a professional farmer for profit, is a "lesser/flawed" person for doing so.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 25, 2017)

Well said!


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## Bossroo (Nov 25, 2017)

Yes, the title is indeed "Back Yard Herds "  and NOT a farm to operate at a loss.  So, what is so wrong in making a PROFIT ?   Our entire economy is based on PROFIT  !!! 
Yes , I had losses , but I listen to medical advice, bouble blind research at Universities, successfull farmers that depend on their farms of all sizes as their sole source of income, as well as the powers that be.  Yes, I have retired from farming as we had a National recesseion, cost of lovestock feed as well as labor and property taxes hit hard and sale at the same time droped like a rock. At the same time my Doctors informed me to retire due to medical reasons or buy a plot of final occupancy.  I make my posts on real life profitable expereinces that allowed me a lifetime of pleasure in raising livestock  so that others can gain from it. No mallice intended.


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## Latestarter (Nov 25, 2017)




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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 25, 2017)

@Bossroo...  did your animals bring you joy?  My animals bring me joy.  I also have had losses and challenges (as have most here) and there are times that the only thing that keeps me sane is being able to walk out and sit in the middle of my critters.  They lay their head in my lap and my blood pressure goes down.  The very best prescription is the stress relief they bring me.   They have even seen me shed a tear and didn't laugh, or make fun, or need an explanation.  They bring me joy, and especially at this time in my life, that joy is priceless.


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## Mini Horses (Nov 25, 2017)

I raised, showed, sold miniature for many years AT A PROFIT.  Now, my retired herd has been given all needed and are "pets".   Have bought, sold and BURIED $50K horses...at my expense.   Enjoyed my time in the limelight, now enjoy my time offering any help I can, for free.  I am a BACK YARD FARMER and take NO offense in saying that.

Raised and made money with Boer goats.  Now, enjoy my dairy herd and pay for what I need.

Would I like more farm income?  Sure.  Am I willing to learn? Sure.  Do I want to be full time at it?  Sure.  LOL  My goal is to live happily, earn enough to pay for expenses of animal upkeep, etc., and I pretty much do that now  (except for the horses ) by selling eggs, chicks, goats, goat kids, etc.   I am semi-retired and want to enjoy WHAT I do, provide for myself and be able to help others who may need it.

I like to attend forums, fairs, workshops and network with those there.  As with ALL such events, they cannot cover every element and are meant to provide good information to the masses, often with a narrow focus.   Apprenticeship is what they used to term a situation where one worked and learned a trade, skill, etc.  We have less of that available now.  Small farms are being dissolved for the reasons mentioned AND for the simple reason that many cannot operate under many of the City, County or State laws in a given area.  Restaurants cannot buy from certain sources -- or only those that meet huge requirements -- individual farmers are often limited in what, where, how much can be sold either off farm or on the farm where raised.  Often it is a health concern as not all locations are as careful with sanitation, etc.   So, once again, a small farmer has 1,000 hoops to jump thru.  Of course, it is the BIG CORP farm that has been providing the product which has been causing the recalls & illness.  Go figure!

Recently an individual referred to my lifestyle as "primitive" since I had chickens for meat/eggs, pigs for meat, goats for milk, cheese, yogurt, soaps, etc., a garden for fresh veggies that I canned/froze & ate.   Well, I suggested that they try to be more "primitive" as I was 15 years older, had NO health issues, take NO meds, work every day and THEY were sick, had issues walking a block, on  6 meds and failing more every day.        Live simply.


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## greybeard (Nov 25, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> We are seeing individual farmers with land holdings and children who WOULD want to take over the farm, being driven out by big agribusiness who want to own it all. In addition, many smaller family farms are being sold for development, in many cases because the owners were left with little choice. Urban sprawl has spread out and engulfed family farm properties and made it too expensive/non profitable to be kept as farm land. Taxing authorities have made it more valuable as something other than a farm.


"Driven out" how, & by who exactly?
Does "Big Ag"  come riding in on scary black horses & torch their homes and fields?

As far as taxes goes, that's why the ag exemption exists.


No, younger generations simply realize there are lots easier ways to make a living than working the soil and fixing fences all day long, no matter what the weather, and it's been going on for quite a few decades.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 26, 2017)

G'day,I'm not sure if "it's safe" for me to put my "head up" after the response the thread has received?
I would like to clarify a couple of points .1.Down here a "hobby farmer" is one with 100/200 acs which has the potential to run livestock,its usually land on the "margin",but has the potential to produce stock if managed "carefully" .2.IMO ,the standard advice delivered does not suit these operations,nor does a scaled down version "cut the mustard" as the management requires much more care in its application so as not to inflict damage on the environment (which may take years to repair).I was interested if the same opinions may apply in the USA amongst the group,I did not expect the reactions that came forward...T.O.R.


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## Baymule (Nov 26, 2017)

Go ahead and stick your head up, nobody is going to chop it off. You brought up a very valid point. The advice and seminars seem geared for big agriculture, not us little people. I only have 8 acres. To make a living I would do better to grow marijuana but it is not legal here. LOL So it is a good thing we are retired with supplemental income. I would hate to depend on egg sales or lamb sales from my 4 ewes to pay the bills around here. 

I absolutely want to at least break even and I trace my profit/loss. I absolutely want to improve my soil and grasses. God made me a steward of the land, maybe not much land, but a steward of the land nonetheless. So I study, I learn, I walk the land, I watch and I try to improve what I have been blessed with. 

Have the 3 grand daughters, age 1, 2, and 10 this weekend. The 1 year old has discovered sheep and is transfixed by than. She learned a new word. BAA BAA! She toddled in amongst them yesterday and followed them out of the lot, had to run get her. The 2 year old and 10 year old gathered eggs. I took canned chicken meat and broth to my daughter because she is sick. For what we put into our little farm, the pay is poor but the rewards are great.


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## Latestarter (Nov 26, 2017)

As Bay said, TOR, you bring up great points for discussion and the subject was not at issue. Here, a typical small acreage is 5-10... there it's 100-200. (Many here live on suburban sized lots; acre or less, and still have chickens/ducks/maybe a goat or two. But in these cases it's definitely not with profit in mind.) In each case, the numbers of livestock that can be held/managed on that sized property is limited. In each case, you'd be hard pressed to make a living from what the land could carry. However, that being said, we STILL want to do things the best we can, and raise healthy animals that produce for our needs, even if that is just, or includes, companionship (pets). 

I have 7 goats. I still want to learn what's needed to keep them happy, healthy and producing milk/kids, & meat eventually. I'm here to learn from others with more knowledge/experience. I don't need to be told that I'm less of a person, incompetent, wrong, a bleeding heart, or anything else simply because I don't have profit as my driving be all/end all goal. I don't know of any backyard hobby farmer here who has in any way denigrated the few "true/real" for-profit/professional farmers that are here offering husbandry advice to us. We in fact are very happy to have you here to help us.


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## greybeard (Nov 26, 2017)

Most hobbyists want to have it both ways tho. They eagerly seek and gladly accept a state's (in Texas, defined in Section 1-d)  ag exemption, but do not follow the rules and protocols set forth in the State's regs as far as actually having, implementing and following a  plan to derive income from the land that is exempted.
Open Space (Section 1-d1) is a bit different and more forgiving in regards to where principal income is obtained, but still, once the exemption is granted, many if not most hobbyists in Texas still do not adhere to the few regs governing that appraisal method.  (the big difference between 1d and 1d1 is under 1d1 (open space) is the land itself is exempted while under 1d, the farmer/rancher and his operation is exempted)

Been a few years since I've pored over Texas ag exemption regs, but I'm pretty sure you won't find the word "pets" included.

One of my nearest neighbors and a good friend is in danger of losing his open space exemption in 2018 due to the fact that he
1. Hasn't been able to show any appreciable ag related income over the last 4 years. Gross mis-management of his cow herd being the reason for that..poor quality and minimal hay in winter, no weed control, no fertilize, no soil samples, rarely supplies mineral, no culling protocol, a 12 year stint of line bred calves using the same bull..etc, etc.
2. Hasn't been using all of his 23.5 acres for ag use.

He got a letter from the appraisal district a few months ago indicating this and there is a very real possibility of at least a 3 year (but probably 5 year) rollback on his open space exemption.  Rollback meaning he will have to pay the county, the difference between what the regular property taxes would be and the exempted amt for the number of years past he didn't meet the requirements. It will be thousands of $$.

So when someone offers advice regarding record keeping, and good ag practices, even hobby farmers should take heed.
It's only because so many counties' appraisal offices take a pretty lax approach that more hobbyists don't find themselves in the same predicament. Get a new appraisal district department head in office that wants to fill the county coffers and that can all change and in a hurry. This is what is now happening in my county. An up and comer with political aspirations is going to use his appraisal district position as a stepping stone to bigger and better things at some of the area farmers' expense.
Texas ag exemptions explained:
https://assets.recenter.tamu.edu/documents/articles/1361.pdf


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## Baymule (Nov 26, 2017)

I cull my flock. I sent a ewe lamb to slaughter last year that was small and it looks like I'll have another small one this year. They have names, they are pets, but they are inferior to my goals and they will be dinner on a plate. 

The grasses good for my area are Bermuda and Bahia, they stand the heat. I seed annual rye grass for winter. This year I seeded two types of clover, hoping for a good stand of clover. 

We steadily work to improve our soil. With 8 acres I can be a little more intensive in my methods. With 300 acres, what I do now wouldn't work. Now I hand pull noxious weeds and burn them. If I were on large acreage that would be ridiculous. We mow to eliminate some weeds before they set seeds. 

My horses are a hole in my pocket. I break even on the chickens. I barely break even on the lambs. I make money on raising feeder pigs but I like them the least. LOL


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## Bossroo (Nov 26, 2017)

FORUM, a public meeting place for OPEN  DISCUSSION  of public business.


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## Bossroo (Nov 26, 2017)

FORUM, a public meeting place for OPEN  DISCUSSION  of public business.


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## greybeard (Nov 26, 2017)

Baymule said:


> With 300 acres, what I do now wouldn't work.


No, not unless you had a passel of young kids/grandkids pulling weeds and grubbing out green briar and even then, it would be slow as a snail.
I said a large operation's practices can be done on a small spread, but did not state it would work the other way around.


> New farmers..old farmers, the process is the same, the process is just scaled down.



I worked for a landowner in West Texas on 3 sections. He raised cattle, and sheep. He wasn't doing anything different on 1900 acres than I am on 124 acres..just more of it. 
My cousin's husband is running sheep, goats and Brangus cattle on 2 sections in Orion and Tom Green counties with another section leased and is doing the same things I am, just over a wider expanse.

I sold 17.4 acres a few years ago to a guy that wanted a little "horse ranch". He maintains his land, pastures, and fences the same way I do. 

I have several different paddocks, of varied sizes, a couple as small as 5 acres. They get treated no different than the 40 acre pastures, and no different than the 200 acre and 1500 acres cow operation right up the highway from me nearer Cold Springs.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 26, 2017)

G'day,Just found this on my  LinkedIn feed ,thought it was worthwhile including in the discussion.
http://theconversation.com/healthy-...age:d_flagship3_feed;EkMT8mLNTtG06AMNwXgkTg==
T.O.R.


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## Bossroo (Nov 26, 2017)

I have 20 acres consisting of 6 different soil types meanding throughout. when we baught it 20 years ago, it was formally an arrid open range land of several thousand acres .  I hired 3 D9s to make 16 acres  level to grade ( excluding a creek and house site ), deep ripped it to 2 feet deep, disced , and planted pasture mix grasses and clovers.  Annually, i spread manure produced from 105 tons of alfalfa hay and 8 tons of corn, wheat, and barley grains in addition to the pasture grass yealds.  The pastures have doubled in the yield ( from ankle high to knee high ) for late Dec., Jan, Feb., March so about 3 1/2 months due to our annual rainfall. I increased the animal carrying capacity by 4 animal units, but still have to buy the same amount of feed for the year.  Since we are surrounded by range lands that are not kept up and weed infested , we have an annual invasion of star and bull thisle, Johnson grass and tumble weeds to no end.  There is NO way that I can keep up with hand pulling or hoeing even with using 10 migrant workers for 4 passes for 2 full days each time over the year to control these invaders.  I have to spot spray with roundup to kill new weed growth a few weeks after the workers. My entire property is reseeded with these unwanted weeds by hoards of blackbird flocks  numbering into the thousands every fall for 2 to 3 weeks straight before they fly elsewhere.   Just a couple pleasures, head ackes  and hard work you need to do  in farming in a arrid high desert type environment.


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## greybeard (Nov 26, 2017)

Bossroo said:


> I increased the animal carrying capacity by 4 animal units, but still have to buy the same amount of feed for the year. Since we are surrounded by range lands that are not kept up and weed infested , we have an annual invasion of star and bull thisle, Johnson grass and tumble weeds to no end.



Put some some cows on the JG..they think of it as candy and eat it the same way. Best and easiest way to keep JG from being able to produce prussic acid is to keep it eaten down to the ground and cattle will happily do that for ya.
JG reproduces and spreads mostly from rhizomes and keeping it eaten down will kill the rhizomes. Used to have lots of it here, but the cows got rid of it for me...they kept it eaten down to where it couldn't produce any seeds and any that came in from outside got eaten as soon as it sprouted up.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 26, 2017)

G'day BR,I guess you already tried Goats to manage the weed problem,not a breeding operation but buying 4/5 mo wethers and selling them om at 12 mo?.Once I have the Dorpers under control with the fencing its an option I am going to investigate..T.O.R.


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## babsbag (Nov 26, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Driven out" how, & by who exactly?



In CA it is often by "city folk" moving to the country that then complain about living next to an active farm. And when those newcomers to the country start holding political positions that allow them to influence the laws and ordinances the farmers and ranchers give up fighting the "law" and sell out.  There is a right to farm law in many counties but that doesn't always offer them the protection they need. 

Also, there is no Ag land tax exemption in CA.


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## Bossroo (Nov 26, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Put some some cows on the JG..they think of it as candy and eat it the same way. Best and easiest way to keep JG from being able to produce prussic acid is to keep it eaten down to the ground and cattle will happily do that for ya.
> JG reproduces and spreads mostly from rhizomes and keeping it eaten down will kill the rhizomes. Used to have lots of it here, but the cows got rid of it for me...they kept it eaten down to where it couldn't produce any seeds and any that came in from outside got eaten as soon as it sprouted up.


We get hardly a drop of rain from late March to Dec. so all of the pasture grasses are brown and of little nutrition value . The only plants that are still green are the ones that need to be eliminated.Our next door neighbor has Texas longhorns that prefer to jump the fence between us often to get to my hay stack. I have too many other animals to feed to get any cattle to eat the areas down. And if i did, the longhorns would be on our land daily.  Too much hastle.    The only option is to spray those pesky plants.   


The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day BR,I guess you already tried Goats to manage the weed problem,not a breeding operation but buying 4/5 mo wethers and selling them om at 12 mo?.Once I have the Dorpers under control with the fencing its an option I am going to investigate..T.O.R.


I thaught of that , however the larger breed goats are few and far between. Cost of transportation would be more than the purchase price. The dwarf types are a dime a dozen in numbers and their owners think that they are worth a wheelbarrow full of gold since they are pets but would be next to useless to me for the amount that they eat and would take forever to put a dent in the weeds.( think 4' -6' tall covering from a single plant to patches the size of city lot within just 2-3 weeks of growth ) Also, the goats are escape artists from experience and I do not relish rounding them up daily from the neighbors' gardens. Best option is to spray weedkiller.


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## greybeard (Nov 26, 2017)

I'm certainly not against using herbicides (I use lots of Remedy and Grazon) but hate to use any that kills anything that the cattle will readily eat. 
JG hay is very common here and sought after. 
Like lots of other forages, you just have to know how to manage it.  It is high in protein too. 

_As far as nutritive value is concerned, johnsongrass is tough to beat. One study conducted at the Noble Research Institute from the summer of 1999 to the fall of 2001 showed that the quality, expressed as percent crude protein (% CP), and digestibility, expressed as percent total digestible nutrients (% TDN), of johnsongrass is as good as any of the forages tested (Figure 1). In this study, bermudagrass was neck and neck with johnsongrass in terms of % CP and % TDN. The bermudagrass was a managed stand and was fertilized with 50 to 100 pounds per acre of actual nitrogen. The johnsongrass was unfertilized and unmanaged._


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2017)

Bossroo said:


> larger breed goats are few and far between.



You can get dairy wethers and cull goats quite easily. Boers are easy to find too so what are you calling "larger breed" goats? As far as escaping I use no climb or sheep and goat fencing with one strand of hot wire at knee height for the goats and one at the top for dogs going over and out and vermin coming in.  The only escaping goats are ones where I leave a gate open or my fencing fails due to error on my part...twice in 9 years.


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## Bossroo (Nov 27, 2017)

babsbag said:


> You can get dairy wethers and cull goats quite easily. Boers are easy to find too so what are you calling "larger breed" goats? As far as escaping I use no climb or sheep and goat fencing with one strand of hot wire at knee height for the goats and one at the top for dogs going over and out and vermin coming in.  The only escaping goats are ones where I leave a gate open or my fencing fails due to error on my part...twice in 9 years.


In our  area of Cal. , all you can see are miles upon miles of orchards, vineyards, row crops, beef and dairy cows, and horses. All that you can find in newspaper adds and feed store postings are for the mini goats as pets.  Years ago, I did buy ( 75 miles away) a couple 5 month old Saanan/ Nubian weathers that turned out to be  total excape artists. Since our ranch boarders a State Highway, risk of a law suit became too much of a risk, so I pit bbqed them at the first opportunity for a large internatioanl and local group as guests.


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## Bossroo (Nov 27, 2017)

greybeard said:


> I'm certainly not against using herbicides (I use lots of Remedy and Grazon) but hate to use any that kills anything that the cattle will readily eat.
> JG hay is very common here and sought after.
> Like lots of other forages, you just have to know how to manage it.  It is high in protein too.
> 
> _As far as nutritive value is concerned, johnsongrass is tough to beat. One study conducted at the Noble Research Institute from the summer of 1999 to the fall of 2001 showed that the quality, expressed as percent crude protein (% CP), and digestibility, expressed as percent total digestible nutrients (% TDN), of johnsongrass is as good as any of the forages tested (Figure 1). In this study, bermudagrass was neck and neck with johnsongrass in terms of % CP and % TDN. The bermudagrass was a managed stand and was fertilized with 50 to 100 pounds per acre of actual nitrogen. The johnsongrass was unfertilized and unmanaged._


Yes, Johson grass has good feed value, however in our neck of the woods where we have frost in late fall and winter in the mornings and hot dry weather in summer and fall ( 98* to 117* and very low humidity), the Johson grass will wilt and will kill cattle and horses from hydrogen cyanide .  It will cause bloat and possible death due to high nitrates . It crowds out crops and prefered grasses.  As such, It is in the top 10 unwanted weeds in the world. Any benefit is outwayed by the risks.  Star and Bull thistle , tumbleweeds and mustard are the others that we are constantly fighting.


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## Reindeermama (Nov 29, 2017)

This has been a very interesting thread to read. We have decided to raise sheep on our 30 acres because our pastures need to be improved, and the weeds they are overgrown with, are enticing to sheep. Also, because we need our ag. exemption, and after running numbers over and over, sheep will bring the profit we need to keep the exemption. I do wish there were seminars that do address smaller acreage holders, say under 30 acres. They are suppose to have an online course about how to make the best of your small acreage in one of the counties near Dallas, but I have not been able to find it yet. I also found out there is a program that will help you with interior fencing for paddocks, and plumbing to bring water to your livestock. They will also pay a portion of drilling a water well for your livestock. The agent at the USDA told me about it.


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## greybeard (Nov 29, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> This has been a very interesting thread to read. We have decided to raise sheep on our 30 acres because our pastures need to be improved, and the weeds they are overgrown with, are enticing to sheep. Also, because we need our ag. exemption, and after running numbers over and over, sheep will bring the profit we need to keep the exemption. I do wish there were seminars that do address smaller acreage holders, say under 30 acres. They are suppose to have an online course about how to make the best of your small acreage in one of the counties near Dallas, but I have not been able to find it yet. I also found out there is a program that will help you with interior fencing for paddocks, and plumbing to bring water to your livestock. They will also pay a portion of drilling a water well for your livestock. The agent at the USDA told me about it.


I have no idea where you are ('location' on your profile area is blank) but many areas in Texas do have an annual seminar, where 3-4 adjacent counties get together with presentations by guest speakers and the extension agents in those counties.
The ones I've attended have been primarily for beef cattle, but focused more on general  pasture improvement more than animals themselves.

I know the one out in trans-Pecos/Concho Valley area is more aligned with goat and sheep tho. (I used to live in Tom Green County)

Lots of different short courses available at TAMU and it's satellite campuses.


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## Reindeermama (Nov 29, 2017)

Thank you, I will have to look at those courses. We are in Live Oak County. One hour from San Antonio, and a little more from Corpus Christi. We have a Beeville address, we are right on the dividing line between counties. We are out in the middle of nowhere. A twenty minute drive to the nearest town. I am watching to see about seminars in San Antonio, Fredericksburg, or even San Angelo. We were going to raise Dexter cattle, but the numbers, and carrying rate doesn't support them. So sheep, and 1 or 2 stocker calves as my husband calls them are what we will carry.


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## greybeard (Nov 29, 2017)

https://today.agrilife.org/2017/11/24/range-pasture-workshop-set-dec-11-sonora/

https://today.agrilife.org/2017/11/26/agrilife-extension-offers-grazing-management-webinar-dec-7/

You're in District 12 so keep a watch on this website:
https://agriliferegister.tamu.edu/organizationListings/21


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