# twin lambing questions



## normanacres

this past may I bought 4 bred katahdin ewes. One is between 3-4...2 are two years old...and 1 is a year old. Well the guy I bought them off of said that they always give birth to twins. Well 3 of them have had their lambs and the one that I thought would have twins had another single today. The 1 year old is not even showing any signs of being bred. But my question is, if they have twins before I thought they would always have twins. Also they were bred with a dorper ram.


----------



## SheepGirl

Litter size is determined primarily by nutrition and environment, and to a lesser degree, genetics.

How were the ewes fed before, during, and after breeding at their previous home? At yours?

Ewes will have different litter sizes every time. For example, we have ewes with the following lambing records that I can remember off the top of my head, lol:
1-2-2-2-3 ~ I expect she will have a single or maybe if I'm lucky, twins, next year (1/2 Babydoll Southdown x 1/2 Montadale)
1-2-1 ~ I'm hoping she has twins next year (3/4 Babydoll Southdown x 1/4 Montadale)
2-3-1 ~ This ewe was sold when my neighbor's farm sold, so who knows what she could've produced (1/2 Babydoll Southdown x 1/2 Montadale)
1-2-2-1 ~ This ewe was also sold when my neighbor's farm sold (Babydoll Southdown)

As you can tell, the ewes with more Montadale in them tend to be more prolific than the ewes with mainly Babydoll Southdown in them. That may be genetics because these ewes were all fed the same as they all lived at the same farm, and even when my two mature ewes (first two listed) were moved to my house, they were fed the same as they were at my neighbor's (same feed & amounts).


----------



## Ruus

They were bred for fall lambing? They may also have had fewer lambs due to the season. Katahdins aren't strongly seasonal, but even nonseasonal breeders are often less fertile outside the regular fall breeding season. Also, ewe lambs sometimes tend not to cycle for the first time out of season, so your yearling ewe may not have been bred even if she was running with a ram.


----------



## bcnewe2

I have seen many yearlings have a single then go on to have multiple births after that. 
I'm sure there is a rhyme and a reason but I've never figured it out.  The last 2 years have been my triplet years. Even last year with our drought I had 3 sets of triplets but also quite a few singles.  

My sheep are Dorper/Katahdin crosses.

We are lambing out of season right now. I have 16 ewes. 3 have lambed. I really wasn't expecting any lambs at this time. I have 2 sets of very healthy twins and 1 single.  These are ewes that are about 5 years old.

Last springs lambs were not near as thrifty as my Dec. born lambs. Going by that, I didnt' expect the new lambs to be as thrifty as they are.

Your yearling could of bred quite a bit later than your older ewes due to age. Katahdins usually cycle about every 21 days if they don't have lambs on them.  I pulled lambs at 2 1/2 months old for sale and they momma's bred back within a month of pulling their lambs.

Go figure. It is always a happy miracle what ever we have.


----------



## normanacres

An amish had them before me and I do not know what they were fed or what their environment was. I do know that he said he did not have time to take care of them anymore and his whole flock of about 20 or so. The ram was put with them on march 15. They are fed about a pound a day...go out on a pasture that still has plenty of grass and clover, and also fed some of our alfalfa hay from my grandparents beef farm. Their sacks were not dried up in may when I bought them and my grandfather said the lambs could have been still on them. I have a ram now but im not quite sure how old he is or what bread he is. I rescued him from the city where he was tied up like a dog and the people just gave him to me and didn't know anything about him. I know he is a hair sheep and I estimate him about 5 months old. he is only 56 pounds. He tends to follow the yearling around but has never tried to mount her. I think he follows her around because the others have lambs. Im new to sheep but I couldn't tell you how much I love having them. We bought a house and had a small horse barn with stalls and a pasture a little over a acre in size. Also how long can they go between giving birth to twins? Our widest sheep that we thought for sure would have twins had a single yesterday and the single was the smallest one! But she also passed her afterbirth so im thinking she is done. That same ewe I had to treat in june for CL.


----------



## Sheepshape

From my experience (and from the words of our 70 year old neighbour who keeps 2,500 sheep), triplets and higher parity tend to be very genetically linked, but singletons and twins can be more variable if they are well fed. I  certainly have a number of ewes who faithfully produce one large lamb a year, never two, whilst some seem to alternate singletons and twins.

I had a ewe lamb who produced triplets in year one and triplets in year two. Year two was cold and rainy here and she lost half her udder to gangrene. I liked her,so kept her, thinking it unlikely she would fall pregnant in year 3. Unfortunately she had 5 lambs this year of which 4 survived, but she could only feed one. I decided, sadly, that I would have to let her go this year.

Normanacres, a ewe can go for up to 24 hours with a second twin in her,but this is very unusual. Normally one twin is born right after the other and then both afterbirths (either as a single or a conjoined unit) is passed. If the afterbirth is passed,your ewe is almost certainly done with lambing. Oh, and also beware of the little guy. I had a HUGE Blue Faced Leicester (about 100kg worth) of ewe a few years back who had a quite nasty hoof injury and I decided to not breed her. i gave her a TINY little  Beulah Speckle Faced 5-6 month old ram lamb to keep her company (too little and scrawny to go to market). Well she eventually recovered and 4 months later her udder started to grow. She produced healthy mule twins.....I'm sure the little guy had a 'sheepish' grin on his face. At half her height ,he must have borrowed the step ladder or she was remarkably compliant....whatever, Titch was a father.

Sandie


----------



## bcnewe2

> They are fed about a pound a day...go out on a pasture that still has plenty of grass and clover, and also fed some of our alfalfa hay from my grandparents beef farm.


That is a heck of a lot of feed for summer.  If they were bagged and looking ready to lamb I might be giving grain but not a pound per ewe. Maybe just shy of that if they had lambs on the ground and were looking drained or having milk issues.  Otherwise pasture or hay, whatever is available.
My katahdins/dorpers live on pasture alone till it's winter or they look like they need more protein.  No hay unless I have nothing green to eat.
I have had 2 sets of twins this week and 2 singles in the same time period.  No one is getting anything extra because it would be hard to separate the momma's from the rest of the flock. They look great.  My lambs are usually ready for market at about 3-4 months.  (60+lbs)

It's not good to fatten your pregnant ewes to much before birth.  When I first started in sheep I did that. They got alfalfa and grain. Each time I'd go out I'd flip them a flake of hay.  So probably 3 flakes give or take per ewe and maybe a 1/2 lb of 12% grain to boot.  They looked like big fat toads.  They didn't want to get up and move.  They were way to fat but I had no idea.  
Now I can tell when they pregnant but they aren't huge, just big sided.  

I lost 2 ewes by feeding them to much. They were unable to give birth to the lambs that had gotten way to big with what I was feeding.  They died in labor.  I was devastated. 

So be careful that you aren't setting yourself up for the same.


----------



## n8ivetxn

normanacres said:
			
		

> I know he is a hair sheep and I estimate him about 5 months old. he is only 56 pounds. He tends to follow the yearling around but has never tried to mount her. I think he follows her around because the others have lambs. Im new to sheep but I couldn't tell you how much I love having them. We bought a house and had a small horse barn with stalls and a pasture a little over a acre in size. Also how long can they go between giving birth to twins?


I raise Barbados Blackbelly hair sheep. If you have a hair sheep ram lamb, I think you may be right, or close to it, about his age. - Hair sheep mature much more slowly than white wool breeds. Your little ram may be old enough to breed, but he could have trouble getting the girls to comply until he's old enough to prove himself. 

I'm not sure I understand your question: between giving birth to twins and what? - Having estrus cycles? I wean my lambs at 12 weeks. I can expect my ewes to cycle again about 6-8 weeks after taking the lambs off of them. I don't usually breed them back immediately, I let them relax a little. Since BBS are aseasonal breeders, I also take into consideration weather conditions during lambing.

Also, with hair sheep, studies have indicated that ewes bred in the fall for spring lambs have higher litter rates than ewes bred for fall lambs.....

Good luck with your new flock


----------



## n8ivetxn

Sheepshape said:
			
		

> From my experience (and from the words of our 70 year old neighbour who keeps 2,500 sheep), triplets and higher parity tend to be very genetically linked, but singletons and twins can be more variable if they are well fed. I  certainly have a number of ewes who faithfully produce one large lamb a year, never two, whilst some seem to alternate singletons and twins.
> 
> I had a ewe lamb who produced triplets in year one and triplets in year two. Year two was cold and rainy here and she lost half her udder to gangrene. I liked her,so kept her, thinking it unlikely she would fall pregnant in year 3. Unfortunately she had 5 lambs this year of which 4 survived, but she could only feed one. I decided, sadly, that I would have to let her go this year.
> 
> Normanacres, a ewe can go for up to 24 hours with a second twin in her,but this is very unusual. Normally one twin is born right after the other and then both afterbirths (either as a single or a conjoined unit) is passed. If the afterbirth is passed,your ewe is almost certainly done with lambing. Oh, and also beware of the little guy. I had a HUGE Blue Faced Leicester (about 100kg worth) of ewe a few years back who had a quite nasty hoof injury and I decided to not breed her. i gave her a TINY little  Beulah Speckle Faced 5-6 month old ram lamb to keep her company (too little and scrawny to go to market). Well she eventually recovered and 4 months later her udder started to grow. She produced healthy mule twins.....I'm sure the little guy had a 'sheepish' grin on his face. At half her height ,he must have borrowed the step ladder or she was remarkably compliant....whatever, Titch was a father.
> 
> Sandie


That is hilarious!  LOL


----------



## california cowgirl

I bought a Dorper ram a few years back and he was a 6 month old ram lamb.  He was so short that I went ahead and bought a Suffolk/ Hamp cross ram I was really looking for.  Didn't ever see the little guy do anything to the sheep and was going to sell him that next summer he came in the spring cause I thought he is too damn short and my Suffolk and Suffolk cross ewes were tall.  Well my nice big fancy ram took a liking to the horses out in the horse field and he could come and go so did the sheep but I would see the two rams little and big sparring once in a while and little guy would just back down and move on.  Come lambing time my husband said I wonder if that big ram has done anything...joking of course.  Well yes I said I see him with the ewes and I see him breed some.   My first lambs came the first of December I had my first set of twins.  One was funny with no wool but longer black hair...OMG that little bugger bred my sheep.  I had 8 ewes lamb out in 4 weeks and had twins all of them and you know those cross lambs we so nice and hearty and I never had to mess with a one.  That little guy bred all those ewes.  I kept on ram lamb and he is now my ram so Suffolk/Dorper cross and I love him.  But the last two ewes finally had lambs from the big guy.  They did not turn out as well as my Dorper ones.  Funny though one lamb would be hair and the other would be wool....lots of speckles too always a solid black on and then white one with speckles.  The ram was black and white.  That is my funny shorty ram lamb story.  I sold the little fella before I knew what he did and now wish I had kept him he was so sweet.

AS for singles vs twins.  Be very thankful that your lambs are healthy and if you have a single they will get plenty to eat and do well and next year you may have twins.  Triplets is hard had that a couple times once the ewe raised them all and the next several times either one died and two lived or she could not raise all three and I had to raise one.  So I am always just thankful that I get good healthy lambs and not worry so much about how many.  Yes some breeds cycle in the fall like my soffolk and Suffolk crosses but I just had a set of twins and that means she got bred first of June so that is strange and now I have bellies showing up so I may start around the first part of December I am thinking.  Also the yearling yes could have gotten bred late or not at all and so just hang in there.  Sheep do what sheep do and not much you can do about it unless there is some trick.  I had a women say she knew a guy that did something to his ewes to get them to cycle early for 4-H lambs and then you can feed rich feed I think that is flushing them to get them to drop more eggs but sometimes that does not work.  Or take the ram out for a while and then reintroduce him and it is supposed to make the ewes cycle I have heard that too.  Mine is just with them all the time so I get what I get when it happens.  It is fun when it all goes well.  And yes if she passed her afterbirth then I am sure she is done.  Some ewes just have big bellys and it can fool you.  I have reached in many a time to make sure there was not another one.  But I do not let them go for 24 hrs I reach in after the first lamb is born and not later than an hour if she is not passed anything.  I had a big ewe give me nice twins and thought she was done.  Never reached in thought that was it and went to bed and the next morning a dead triplet.  So that was a lesson for me.


----------



## n8ivetxn

Wow! I gotta watch the shorties!

I agree, healthy babies are good babies. When I first switched from mini-cows to sheep, I wanted multiple birthers.....Now, I just want healthy lambs and ewes. That is more valuable to me than litter numbers.

In June a ewe lambed, I wasn't around until later....she wouldn't let me get near her and the new baby. She had stuff hanging out the back. Finally, the next day, she went down. The vet said she had a twin stuck inside. He could do surgery, but couldn't guarantee she'd live. And the surgery cost $600 - $1000. I was laid off at the time and couldn't afford to take the risk, so he euthanized the dam and I bottle raised the little ewe lamb. I hate that it happened, I haven't gotten over it yet. I needed her for the flock, she was a very nice ewe.

That being said, I expect six sets of twins and one single in the spring


----------



## california cowgirl

Yes unfortunately we all learn from these lessons and it happens.  I am sorry for your loss and it seem the really good ones sometimes or our favorites have problems.  Around here the rule of thumb do not give it a name....LOL but we try our best to do what is best.  It happens.

Also if this was just a day later if you knew how to reach in there you could have pulled that dead lamb out if it was not too big or too swollen and give you some penicillin and a uterine flush and she would have probably made it.  But vets like the big bucks...unless there was another problem.  Prolapse is one that you might as well uthenize that one is hard and usually doesn't fix.


----------



## n8ivetxn

Yes, learning is sometimes a difficult thing....Somebody else told me once the cervix ceases to be dilated, I wouldn't be able to get my hand in there. After that, surgery would be the only option. 

Another thing I learned, have an emergency fund for my animals. Things happen, and for somebody that doesn't have decades of experience, it doesn't hurt to put a little aside for them. It adds up quick!


----------

