# I am looking into sheep and have questions.



## messybun (Sep 19, 2020)

Hello all, as the title suggests I am thinking about getting some sheep. I have goats already but I have heard sheep can be trickier. My goats are mostly pygmies, with one big whether(200 lb "pygmy cross") lol. 
Can sheep and goats get along, or will the sheep bully my goats? I know that sheep are really parasite prone, my goats thus far have been very fortunate even when my deworming has gotten lazy, will sheep parasites put my current animals at risk? There is no possible way to rotate pasture, but I have a partial plan, more on that later.
 Do sheep jump on things and play like goats do, what toys and entertainment do they usually like? Do they need anything extra special with their shelter or is it just good ventilation, waterproof, cleanable, the basics? Do they need anything different in feed, aside from no copper, anything different from goats as far as grass/hay, corn, sweetfeed, bread?
 I want to start with hair sheep because they are supposed to be more hardy and easier lambers. Does anyone know if this is actually true? I don't have much experience helping with birth and we don't have a vet to help so I want to start with something hopefully more manageable. Has anyone milked sheep before, how much do you get about? What meds do I have to have on hand? I know a basic antibiotic, vitamin b, and calcium what else should I have on hand? What vaccines do you ACTUALLY need? 
Now, it's later, here's my half-baked plan. Use hog panels as a movable pen. I have my pasture that is a bit under an acre fenced with sheep and goat wire and it has two strands of polyrope on the inside( if it decides to work that day!!!) but there is a chunk of my land that isn't fenced and has to be mowed and my goats can't quite keep my pasture down anyway. So, in the summer I was thinking to put the sheep into and 8x8 pen and move them as often as they eat it down. I have seen people put large panels on wheels, but any lambs would be able to get out so I was thinking the small panels unless anyone has a different experience or a better idea. My grass tends to be lush, would two sheep be able to be maintained on a quarter acre? The thought had been to graze the two sheep together and then when it came lambing time to move their fence into my pasture, as a jug, because there would be more predator protection. Then I could either move individual mama and lambs outside the fence when they were ready or both mamas together. Depending on how they get along, I could make an 8x16 rectangle of cattle panels and let moms and babies graze in the same pen. Would and 8x8 or 8x16 be enough space to keep the sheep happy, or would they get cabin fever over the summer? They would of course get a movable house with them. Do sheep even babysit each other's lambs like goats do? For the half-cooked part... the winter. What would I do with the sheep in winter? I would assume I sold the babies, but where would I put them? Could I put them in the pasture with the goats? Where would I put the sheep if they didn't get along with the goats? Any ideas?
Now, for the business part, does this sound doable? Would I be running in the red or is it even possible to not? Is there a possibility of making my own yarn, I know there wouldn't be much of it because they would be hair sheep, but with extra work can it even be done? 
Final question, and I know there have already been a ton of them, what does no one tell ewe about sheep because it should be basic knowledge but it isn't? 
Thank you in advance sheeple people for any answers.


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## Beekissed (Sep 19, 2020)

Here's a nice place to start to get a lot of your questions answered and it may help you refine your thinking and questions that you can't find an answer for in these sites.  






						Sheep 101:  Basic information about sheep
					






					www.sheep101.info
				









						Sheep 201:  A Beginner's Guide to Raising Sheep
					






					www.sheep101.info


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## Baymule (Sep 19, 2020)

I have Katahdin hair Sheep, they aren’t parasite prone. Some are, those are the ones we sell. LOL 
You can’t spin wool from hair Sheep. It is very short and would be contaminated by the hair. 

Sheep don’t babysit other lambs. St least mine don’t. They don’t jump on things like goats do and are very easy to keep in a fence. I have never assisted any of my ewes with birth. I usually have 10-12 ewes. 

Basic shelter is good. My Sheep barn is a 20’x24’ roof off the side of a portable building. There is a small plywood shelter under the roof, my early Sheep shelter. LOL


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## Beekissed (Sep 19, 2020)

I too have Katahdins and agree with Bay about the parasites...some are prone, though not NEAR as prone as goats, overall.   Those that need worming are sold or butchered, the ones that don't require worming are bred for more of the same and that's an ongoing process.  

My sheep don't have any shelter but trees and brush as they are on a pasture based system and many do the same, even in very cold climates.   Sheep pretty much carry their barn on their backs, with coats that resist rain and insulate them well.  

The only problem most express in keeping goats and sheep together are that sheep are dominant in most cases and they can't share the same minerals, as goats require more copper than do sheep.   

Sheep can be milked and some of the most expensive cheese in the world is made from sheep's milk.  Katahdin are one of the more milky of the sheep breeds, so some do milk their Kats.  I have one that would be a great milker with a large, even udder and large, easy to grasp teats....she regularly feeds 3-4 lambs at a time, so plenty of milk happening and all lambs fat as ticks.    

Sheep are easier to keep in fences, don't tend to climb on things after a certain age...I had a lamb this season that was jumping to the top of round bales and playing tag on top of the bales, though the rest were too heavy to follow her.  

3/4 of an acre isn't enough land to keep 4 ruminates in grass for long, so eventually you'd be feeding hay or feed all year round and the land would be prone to parasite and coccidia overload.   You also have to consider that, if you want to have lambs, you have to have a ram for a time, either rented, borrowed or bought and then you have an extra mouth to feed for awhile.   Then the lambs will be eating pasture as well, most as early as 10 days are sampling greens, and hair sheep tend to twin and triplets, so lots of extra sheep for awhile.  Sheep eat a LOT and very quickly.  

There's a business in selling bottle babies right now and for a good price too, so you could go that route, which would free up the milk for your consumption.  That would ease the burden on the land somewhat, but not much with 4 adult animals full time.


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## Ridgetop (Sep 23, 2020)

I have had both dairy goats and sheep.  

Goats are less parasite prone because of their feeding styles.  Goats are foragers preferring to nibble bushes and trees here and there and move on.  They prefer not to eat off the ground.  Most goats will not touch hay that has been dropped on the ground unless they are starving - thus the use of keyhole feeders to prevent hay waste.  

Sheep are grazers, they eat grass off the ground  Certain breeds of hair sheep are better foragers than others, but all will graze on the ground, thus infecting and re-infecting themselves with parasites.  Certain breeds of sheep are more resistant to parasites than others, but all will pick up parasites if they are forced to graze in one small area without proper pasture management (such as confining them in a 16' x 16' pen).

Since you have don't have enough area to graze your sheep - I would not bother getting any breeding ewes.  You would need to have a ram if you wish to breed sheep.  Rams and goats will attempt to breed ewes and does indiscriminately.  Thus you will need to separate your goats and sheep.

If your goats have horns, they can injure the sheep severely.  Vice versa, a large sheep can injure a small pygmy or dwarf goat by butting it.  The butt of a sheep is powerful enough to break a man's leg.

Stock panels and hog panels usually are sold in 16' sections  If you are putting these together to form a 16' x 16' pen for grazing purposes on the unfenced land they would be too small for the sheep and would need to be moved at least once a day, probably twice.  The grass area inside the fence would be trampled more than grazed.  Moving stock panels once or twice a day is a lot of work and would get old fast.  8' x 8' sections would be totally unworkable as grazing pens for sheep. My lambing jugs are 5' x8' and those are too small other than to keep a ewe and newborn lambs for a week.

You could conceivably buy electric netting and a solar charger and enclose an area 100' x 50'.  this would take 300' of electric netting and one solar charger  You would need to change this pasture size frequently too.   More netting would make a larger enclosure and possibly be more workable.  You will have to train the sheep to the electric netting but this is doable.

My suggestion would be to use electric netting on the unfenced pasture, fencing s much as you can afford and moving it as needed.  *Do not buy breeding ewes*, but rather in the spring when the grass is good buy weanlings to put in this pasture and finish out for meat.  Once they have grazed off this grass take them to the butcher and put the meat into your freezer.  You can supplement them with a little bit of corn.  You can also buy bummer lambs to raise on a bottle.  This will require the use of formula which will be an additional expense.  If you have children that can do the bottle feeding that will cut your work load however you might have a problem putting those lambs in the freezer because of your kids' attachment to the lambs.  I would just go with buying weanlings and putting them inside the electric fence.  They don't need any additional housing or shelter unless your weather is extreme.  They will need protection from predators since a predator can jump the 42"-48" electric netting.  If you have somewhere to lock them up at night that would work.  You don't say if you have any LGDs currently, however, your LGDs might not want to remain inside the electric fencing since they are probably bonded to the goats.

If you fence our 3/4 acre pasture with electric net fencing and park your stock trailer (if available) inside this fence, you can give the sheep a bait of corn at night to get them into the trailer and lock them in at night.  Let them out in the am to graze the grass.  If you don't have a stock trailer, you can put a small shedin the middle of the pasture so that you can move the electric net fencing around the shed over the season.  Bait the sheep into the shed at night, letting them out in the am.  

Since your grazing is only available to you in the spring and summer months, there is no reason to keep and feed breeding ewes and a ram.  You can accomplish the same purpose by simply bringing in a couple of meat lambs and feeding them out to butcher size.  This will be much more economical and also give you the fun of raising a couple of lambs for meat without the cost and work of keeping breeding ewes and a ram.


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## messybun (Sep 24, 2020)

Some good thoughts, thank you guys. I thought I would have enough space, a neighbor keeps a full horse on slightly less than an acre and only needs some hay in the winter, and my eight goats can’t keep their 2/3 ish of an acre down(it’s knee high in several spots right now). But that is why I asked actual farmers If sheep were a possibility. If I don’t have enough room now, could I get more bang for my buck so to speak with high quality forage? I already have clover, good quality grass, and a good variety of tasty weeds plus, I’m going to plant some oats and other forages next year to further improve on pasture quality. Unfortunately electric fence wouldn’t work, it would interere with our driveway (the main part we have to mow is a relatively narrow stretch adjacent to our driveway) and I passionately hate working with electric fence but I expected to move sheep twice a day any way. I would be the one raising the lambs lol, that’s part of what I wanted. The sheep would be to give me experience in sheep more than anything, and if I liked them I could get into wool sheep. Where I live there are plenty of hair sheep, but wool sheep would be a really big investment so I wanted to start small and build. If I can even work out a way to Keep sheep I definitely won’t have a ram lol! We have a lot of farmers local who offer stud services so I could easily and cheapely get my pick of males without having to keep my own and feed him.


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## Baymule (Sep 24, 2020)

I love my sheep. Rams can be dangerous jerks, so we drove nearly 1400 miles round trip to get Ringo, a registered Kahtadin ram. He is a lovebug, spoiled to lots of scratches, chin rubs and animal crackers. Plus he was raised in the Virginia Tech University parasite program and is highly resistant to worms. 

It is wise for you to toss ideas out there and get feedback. Then when you make a move, it will be what is best for you and your sheep.


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## Ridgetop (Sep 24, 2020)

Check out the hand spinner wool market before deciding to keep wool sheep for wool.  Also check out the availability of obtaining shearers in your area,  Learning to shear can be done but you need to learn to shear without too any false or send cuts, since that diminishes the value of the wool.  Also, different breeds of sheep have different wool and prices vary as demand for one over the other can be much higher.  You can certainly spin any sheep wool but the best wools are on specific breeds of sheep and require certain types of care to protect the coat.  I would recommend that you buy or borrow several comprehensive books from the library about sheep raising and care.  Doing research first will save you money in the long run!


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## Baymule (Sep 24, 2020)

Read @secuono ‘s threads. She spins wool and puts coats on her Sheep to protect the wool.


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## secuono (Sep 24, 2020)

Can sheep and goats get along, or will the sheep bully my goats?
Its usually the goats that are the problem to sheep, eating their wool, stepping on them, ramming them from dangerous angles.

will sheep parasites put my current animals at risk? 
The extra filth will cause problems if you can't keep on top of it. They also share many parasites in common. 

 Do sheep jump on things and play like goats do, what toys and entertainment do they usually like? 
No, rarely young lambs might try, but nowhere near what goats do. They like to eat in peace with other sheep, that's their joy n entertainment. 

Do they need anything extra special with their shelter or is it just good ventilation, waterproof, cleanable, the basics?
Basics. More air flow if wool breeds.

 Do they need anything different in feed, aside from no copper, anything different from goats as far as grass/hay, corn, sweetfeed, bread?
Corn, bread, sweetfeed isn't good for anyone, unless your fattening up for slaughter. Sheep need copper, all life does, but most sheep require far less.

 Does anyone know if this is actually true? 
I hear the same thing, but idk, I never kept any hair sheep before. 

Has anyone milked sheep before, how much do you get about? 
If it's not a milk breed, you don't get much. Rare times I've tried, I got half to 1 cup.

What meds do I have to have on hand? 
I know a basic antibiotic, vitamin b, and calcium what else should I have on hand? 
Spectoguard, dewormers, vitamin e. Fly spray.


What vaccines do you ACTUALLY need? 
Might depend on your location. Technically, nothing, if you plan to cull w/e gets sick. Many say CDT is the main one to do.


Use hog panels as a movable pen. 
You mean those short welded panels? They will jump out.

but any lambs would be able to get out 
Yes. They make 4x4" panels, or just attach chicken wire to cattle panels to keep lambs in. Watch out for dips n hills. They'll roll out from under.

Quarter acre of lush grass
Sheep browse as well, even horses do it. Can't say if two will eat it all, stomp it to mud or decide its gross and not touch it. 

.Would and 8x8 or 8x16 be enough space to keep the sheep happy, or would they get cabin fever over the summer?
They'll turn it to mud. Or are you moving it daily? If there's 2 moms n 4 lambs, it may not be enough space.

Do sheep even babysit each other's lambs like goats do? 
No, they stomp, slam, headbutt other lambs away. Might even kill them. 

What would I do with the sheep in winter? I would assume I sold the babies, but where would I put them? Could I put them in the pasture with the goats? Where would I put the sheep if they didn't get along with the goats? Any ideas?
On pasture or w/e you do with the goats. If they don't get along, add a dividing wall/fence.


Now, for the business part, does this sound doable? Would I be running in the red or is it even possible to not? Is there a possibility of making my own yarn, I know there wouldn't be much of it because they would be hair sheep, but with extra work can it even be done? 
I'm sure I've read of someone spinning hair sheep wool, but I wouldn't bother. Maybe if its kept clean and you plucked it off, otherwise, it may get matted and messy. I don't think you'd see any true profit, after sheep costs, feed, equipment, meds, fiber equipment costs. Maybe if you managed to sell lambs for enough to cover all of that.


what does no one tell ewe about sheep because it should be basic knowledge but it isn't? 
🤷🏽‍♀️ they're just another animal, nothing special or tricky about them. Keep eyes on their health, housing, food & things should be fine. Check sheep every 2wks from birth into autumn. Then again from spring to autumn. The third summer they shouldn't be at risk of parasites taking over.


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## Isaac (Sep 24, 2020)

If you are looking for a good movable fencing you can get it at premier1.com. I got the electric fencing and I moved it twice a day on one acre and its really easy to move, you just pull the posts out and put them one at a time in your hand then walk to where you want the fence put one post in the ground then start laying it out on the ground stick the last post in the ground where you want it then walk back putting the other posts in the ground. On one acre I grazed 16 ewes and lambs all summer. What I did is I divided the pasture into fourths with the fencing, then I would graze them on 1/4 of it for an hour in the morning then do the same in the evening just in a different 1/4. 
Sheep are very laid back animals, I will have to say I like them more than goats. If you're looking to spin wool and make yarn get wool sheep; Rambouillet is a very soft wool breed, but if you would like longer wool Wensleydale or Teeswater is a very laid back breed of sheep, even the rams are laid back, but still, don't turn your back on a ram unless you know what you're doing.
Hope that helps!


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## Ridgetop (Sep 25, 2020)

I am not trying to talk you out of raising sheep.  But there are some things you should do first.

*Definitely talk to @secuono about wool and sales of wool if you are buying sheep planning to sell their wool.  *In some locations you can't even give it away.  If you have no experience with wool you should look on U Tube for videos on how to shear, skirt, process, and card wool.  Remember that is is a lot harder to do it than it looks in the videos.  It will require an investment in equipment as well.

Before planning on getting sheep to spin their wool, you might want to take a spinning class to learn about types of wool.  We took a spinning class using the teacher's wheels, and purchased wool.  It was not easy.  We also had our own Dorset wool processed and we spun that.  Dorset wool is coarser and we were able to spin that more easily, but still not skilfully!  LOL  Various types of wool are produced by different breeds of sheep, some of which is soft (therefore harder to spin for a beginner) and some that is coarser (easier to spin for a beginner).  These different types of wool were traditionally used for different types of garments.  Coarser wool was harder wearing so used for socks, outer garments, etc.  Softer wool was used for inner garments that touch the skin.   If you want to raise sheep for wool to sell to spinners, you need to learn about wool, weight, crimp, etc.  Also learn about skirting your "fleeces" and how to wash the fleeces, card them, and produce hanks of wool ready to spin or sell.  That is a whole other set of learning than just how to keep sheep.  We have had sheep for 30 years and are not competent spinners.  In addition, when I skirted and washed my first fleece I "felted" it!  LOL  I had our next shearing of 10 fleeces skirted, washed, and carded professionally for about $300.00.  It is not cheap.

Another item of knowledge you will need with wooled sheep is shearing.  Shears are expensive and you have to have several sets of blades and cutters.  The type of shears used for shearing sheep are different than standard horse or dog clippers,  Then you have to get the blades sharpened after shearing.  Also expensive.  If you have someone experienced who can shear for you great!  I switched to Dorpers after my shearer went to $50/head.  I used to shear my own, but I m older and it is a lot of bending, hard in the back.  If the sheep are not extremely tame, you have to restrain them while attempting to shear off the fleece.

You have to shear the sheep once a year.  It is necessary to take the fleece off in one piece with no extra cuts producing "shorts" which cannot be used.  Shorts and a messy shearing job lessens the value of the fleece.  It is a skill that must be learned carefully since the shears are heavy, and the cutters are very sharp.  The blades can actually take off a finger.  Even professional shearers have been known to accidentally shear off a nipple or penis.  It is better to take off the fleece "in the grease".  Then do the "skirting" - picking out all the bits of twigs, burrs, debris, dried mud, and manure from the dirty fleece before washing it.  After washing the fleece by hand (many changes of hot water) and air drying it, you need to "card" it which again means taking a sheep card (like a giant sharp wire pin brush and brushing out the clean fleece back and forth for hours to get it fluffy and turn it into "batts". 

Like I said, I don't want to discourage you from keeping sheep, but for the amount of pasture you have you should consider buying weanlings and raising them to freezer size.  That will give you experience with keeping sheep without a large investment in equipment, fencing, clippers, or spinning equipment.  The moveable electric netting as suggested by *@Isaasc *would be the best plan to get you started and you could use it for other applications if sheep did not work out for you.  If you decided to move ahead with purchasing sheep, be aware that most of their feed will be purchased hay that you will have to buy and carry to them.  Be sure to check out the prices for hay in your area since they can range from $6/bale to $40/bale depending on the type of hay, and area you live in.

I just hate having people jump into something without knowing all the _pitfalls_.  The pleasure of keeping your animals is obvious.  I feel bad when owners eventually have to dispose of their animals or have multiple problems trying to deal with a bad situation.  It is much better if they learn first all they can about what they want to do, and any problems they may have, as you are trying to do.  
*
Kudos to you on seeking out the information about the risks and pitfalls FIRST*!


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## messybun (Sep 25, 2020)

Wow, thank you all so much for the time and information.
   As far as the fence panels, when I say hog panels I mean the 8x4 or the 4x16 panels of thick gauge wire that stand alone(they also sell ones with all small holes but they are almost triple the price). The panels alone are enough to keep goats in that space, I didn't know if lambs could crawl out of the gradiated squares up higher but I don't think they'll be climbing from what I've heard. I was planning on moving the fence at least once a day, maybe twice. Sheep are flock animals, so I would put the ewes in the same pen until they had their lambs and then they'd get two separate pens, one for each mom. I was worried that lambs would need to be baby sat (I've had a goat make me babysit her baby before because there weren't any other moms around) but if they don't that will put less strain on each individual pen. Do sheep stomp grass that fast? I don't want them turning my yard to muck.
  Wool sheep would be a huge investment, that's why I was thinking to start with hair sheep and not only learn from them but I was thinking that by selling the lambs I might eventually save up enough for wool sheep. Locally I can get fair to good quality hair sheep anywhere from 75-200, to get a wool sheep I'm looking at some good traveling and then paying over 150 a sheep at least and this isn't even including all the extra shearing equipment and what not. Oh, and the only shearers are from a local alpaca farm once a year, but I don't even think they do sheep. So I'd be doing that myself too.
  As far as a wool market, it's big. There is a local fine yarn shop that is currently having to bring in all their yarn, there is also a large crafting scene and farmer/crafting/over-priced-trinkets market that would eat up whatever I made from yarn. I would also love to make my own clothes from my own yarn instead of just store-bought. But that is far off if ever lol.
I will euthanize an animal if necessary, but I think an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure, I was just wondering if there are vaccines that are basically useless or if I should actually vaccinate.
  I do have a pretty secure pasture fence, but no lgds, and I have shelters in the goat's pasture already. If the sheep got along with the goats I could put them in the large pasture every night and lead them into their small pens in the day. And yes, I will either tame my sheep or tame my best babies and sell the moms so that moving will be easy.
  Hay goes anywhere between 6-12 a bale if you get it in season, and up to 18 or 20 if you have to buy non-local stuff.
  Do lambs get an attitude if you bottle raise them like a horse or cow does? If I started with bottle babies they wouldn't have anyone to keep their "personality" in check other than the goats, and I don't want to deal with wooly terrors( pun fully intended). Has anyone noticed a difference in long term health from bottle babies either?


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## purplequeenvt (Sep 26, 2020)

*Hello all, as the title suggests I am thinking about getting some sheep. I have goats already but I have heard sheep can be trickier. My goats are mostly pygmies, with one big whether(200 lb "pygmy cross") lol.
Can sheep and goats get along, or will the sheep bully my goats?*

Sheep and goats can get along. A lot depends on the individual personalities. If the goats have horns, they are more likely to bully the sheep. Sheep are not trickier than goats at all. They are less inclined to be escape artists and they don’t cry and run for cover at the 1st rain drop. Their main thing is to watch their copper intake. They need some copper, but they usually get enough from their feed that any supplementation of it may cause issues. 

*I know that sheep are really parasite prone, my goats thus far have been very fortunate even when my deworming has gotten lazy, will sheep parasites put my current animals at risk? There is no possible way to rotate pasture, but I have a partial plan, more on that later.*

In a pasture setting, goats (generally speaking) have way more parasite issues than sheep unless properly managed. Goats are browsers, not grazers and their preferred choice is to eat leaves and shrubs and not just grass (where all the parasites are). 

*Do sheep jump on things and play like goats do, what toys and entertainment do they usually like? Do they need anything extra special with their shelter or is it just good ventilation, waterproof, cleanable, the basics? *

Sheep aren’t playful/mischievous/social like goats. They like to do sheepy things like eat, snooze and chew their cud in peace. When they do kick up their heels a bit, they usually bounce around and play with each other for a few minutes before going back to being sheep. Lambs will often climb on things, but not nearly to way kids will.

For shelter, all you really need is a place for them to get out of the wind and the worst of the weather. And 3-sided shed would do them just fine.

*Do they need anything different in feed, aside from no copper, anything different from goats as far as grass/hay, corn, sweetfeed, bread?*

What you feed is going depend on what you have for animals. Growing lambs may need a little extra grain, but a pair of pet wethers would be better on grass/1st cut hay and as few snacks as possible.


*I want to start with hair sheep because they are supposed to be more hardy and easier lambers. Does anyone know if this is actually true? I don't have much experience helping with birth and we don't have a vet to help so I want to start with something hopefully more manageable.* 

You get what you pay for. If you go to an auction and buy someone’s cull ewes, you’re most likely buying yourself heartache and trouble. If you take the time to find a farm that purposely breeds for easier management then you‘ll start in a better place. If you want good sheep, expect to pay more for them.

I get really annoyed by people who go around advertising this breed or that breed as “the best thing since sliced bread”. There are hundreds of breeds of sheep for a reason. Each breed was originally developed for a specific purpose whether it was a certain type of wool, meat production, milk, etc.... There is no one “best” breed out there. *You* need to figure out what your purpose is for raising sheep and choose a breed based on that. If a hair sheep fits that purpose great, but don’t choose hair sheep just because you’ve heard they’re the easiest, best, what have you.

I have always had wool sheep. I don’t think that I will ever switch to hair sheep. For me, sheep are supposed to be woolly. My sheep are easy lambers, good mothers, and hardy, but that’s how we’ve bred them to be. The ones that have serious issues are retired, put in the freezer, or sold. I will not sell a cull ewe as a breeding ewe. What the buyer chooses to do with her is up to them, but she’s sold without papers and with full disclosure.

*Has anyone milked sheep before, how much do you get about? *

This is going to depend on what breed you have and whether they’ve been bred for milk production. For example, Icelandics are considered triple-purpose. Wool, meat, and milk. There are some lines that it would be a waste of time trying to milk and other lines that have been bred specifically for milkiness.

I milked a few of my ewes (Border Leicesters and 1 weird crossbred) this spring and I was getting about 1 1/2 - 2 cups daily BUT I was only milking once a day AND they were at the end of their lactation. 

*What meds do I have to have on hand? I know a basic antibiotic, vitamin b, and calcium what else should I have on hand? What vaccines do you ACTUALLY need?*

LA-200 or Pen-G (both can be purchased OTC at your feedstore) are good basic antibiotics to have on hand. I keep both, but I have specific criteria where they are used and so far (knock on wood), I have not had to resort to anything more powerful from the vet.

B-complex is useful anytime an animal has been stressed or is under the weather.

Calcium isn’t something that I normally keep on hand except during lambing season.

CD&T is the only vaccine that I would recommend without hesitation. I have lost animals to enterotoxemia/pulpy kidney/over-eating disease/whatever you want to call it AND to tetanus.

Enterotoxemia will take out your biggest, nicest babies without any warning. They’ll seem fine and then they are dead.

Tetanus is not something you ever want to witness an animal going through.

Rabies is another to consider giving, but I don’t usually give that unless my sheep are going to shows. 

*Now, it's later, here's my half-baked plan. Use hog panels as a movable pen. I have my pasture that is a bit under an acre fen with sheep and goat wire and it has two strands of polyrope on the inside( if it decides to work that day!!!) but there is a chunk of my land that isn't fenced and has to be mowed and my goats can't quite keep my pasture down anyway. So, in the summer I was thinking to put the sheep into and 8x8 pen and move them as often as they eat it down. I have seen people put large panels on wheels, but any lambs would be able to get out so I was thinking the small panels unless anyone has a different experience or a better idea. My grass tends to be lush, would two sheep be able to be maintained on a quarter acre?* 

Do yourself a favor and get some electric netting (Premier1 has good fencing) and a fence charger (there are plug in, battery, and solar powered options). 

You’d be moving that 8x8 pen multiple times a day. Work smarter, not harder!

*The thought had been to graze the two sheep together and then when it came lambing time to move their fence into my pasture, as a jug, because there would be more predator protection. Then I could either move individual mama and lambs outside the fence when they were ready or both mamas together. Depending on how they get along, I could make an 8x16 rectangle of cattle panels and let moms and babies graze in the same pen. Would and 8x8 or 8x16 be enough space to keep the sheep happy, or would they get cabin fever over the summer? They would of course get a movable house with them.* 

Build them a secure paddock with a shelter for winter housing and lambing. During the summer move them out to pasture together. Sheep like to have enough space to move around and pick and choose what they eat. They don’t like to eat poopy grass or heavily trampled grass. 

*Do sheep even babysit each other's lambs like goats do?*

No. Lambs will run around with each other, but the moms know their babies and they won’t die for another ewe’s lambs. 

* For the half-cooked part... the winter. What would I do with the sheep in winter? I would assume I sold the babies, but where would I put them? Could I put them in the pasture with the goats? Where would I put the sheep if they didn't get along with the goats? Any ideas?*

Like I said above, winter paddock with shelter. They absolutely can be run with your goats as long as you don’t feed extra copper. What most people do is to feed sheep grain and minerals and then bolus the goats a couple times a year with copper.

*Now, for the business part, does this sound doable? Would I be running in the red or is it even possible to not? Is there a possibility of making my own yarn, I know there wouldn't be much of it because they would be hair sheep, but with extra work can it even be done?*

You aren’t going to make any money and won’t even come close to breaking even on 2 sheep. I sold 6 six (5 lambs, 1 breeding ewe) this year and made enough to cover hay for this winter and buy a new ram. A 7th lamb I traded for my other ram. I‘m happy that I covered the hay cost, but that money in no way covers everything else I’ve put into them this year.

I do my own shearing so that saves me some money and if I got my act together, I could sell some wool.

You won’t be able to do anything with the ”wool” from a hair sheep. The staple is really short and it will be full of hairs which make it scratchy and unpleasant.

If wool is something you are interested in, then look into wool breeds. There are some many out there! Things to consider are: your climate and availability of the breed. Romneys and Border Leicesters are both hardy, popular breeds (ie, you’re likely to find decent stock) with fleeces that fiber artists like. Both breeds grow decent meat lambs and have a reputation for good mothering abilities. There are also some of the primitive breeds of sheep - Jacobs, Shetlands, Icelandics, Navajo Churro, etc. Not the best option if you are looking for a traditional size lamb carcass, but hardy and versatile animals.

There are fine wool (merino, Rambouillet), medium wool (most of the meat breeds - Southdown, Suffolk, etc fall into this group), and long wool (Romney, Border Leicester, Lincoln) sheep as well as the primitive breeds and hair sheep.

I shear my own sheep. I shear on a fitting or milking stand and I don’t have fancy shears. I’ve got a pair of Lister clippers that have coarse shearing blades from Premier1 on them. I’ve got through almost the entire flock twice with 3 sets of blades. You can use something like that or handshears or even scissor! 

*Final question, and I know there have already been a ton of them, what does no one tell ewe about sheep because it should be basic knowledge but it isn't?*

Sheep aren’t as stupid as they act. Most of the time anyways.


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## Nao57 (Oct 9, 2020)

If sheep are more prone to parasites, then is it safe for humans to use their milk without them transferring to us?

How do you make sure this doesn't happen?

A moveable pen is a good idea I think. But the bigger it is, the harder it will be to move. But I think you'd have to have some size for sheep, because they need more space than say poultry. If you are doing moveable fencing, then I think zip ties won't work for connections as they break with stress. Were you going to do the connections with hog rings, or something else in the fencing panels to join them together?

I like your ideas and would like to hear more about it.

And wishing everyone luck and success.

PS if some sheep breeds are better for milk than others, then does that mean that some breeds are more parasite resistant than others?


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## messybun (Oct 9, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> If sheep are more prone to parasites, then is it safe for humans to use their milk without them transferring to us?
> 
> How do you make sure this doesn't happen?
> 
> ...


With all livestock there are some who were naturally parasite resistant, and people took that strain of animals and made it into a breed. Sometimes parasite resistance depends on individual animals though. Yes, there are some nasty things that can practically be transferred through milk, that is why you pasteurize, or at least boil, milk. But when I’m talking about parasites I mean ones in the gut, which don’t transfer to the milk, completely different body systems.
And I would do basic d rings on the fence because they are sturdy, cheap and easy to move.


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## secuono (Oct 9, 2020)

Only thing about bottle raised anything, do not keep intact males.


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## messybun (Oct 28, 2020)

I’ve been doing research, a lot of it. And more questions! One, if I manage to have a bottle baby about how many bags of formula do they go through before they are weaned?
Two, what fly spray do you use to repel fly strike? I already use diatomaceous earth on everything I have, but is there something else better for sheep? 
What do you use to keep calcium up? I was thinking alfalfa as a supplement, would compact hay or pellets be better? If they are about equal in effectiveness which do you like better?
TIA


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## secuono (Oct 28, 2020)

messybun said:


> I’ve been doing research, a lot of it. And more questions! One, if I manage to have a bottle baby about how many bags of formula do they go through before they are weaned?
> Two, what fly spray do you use to repel fly strike? I already use diatomaceous earth on everything I have, but is there something else better for sheep?
> What do you use to keep calcium up? I was thinking alfalfa as a supplement, would compact hay or pellets be better? If they are about equal in effectiveness which do you like better?
> TIA



I have no idea how much they weigh, but I use small bags. Up to two of them for a lamb. But it also depends on breed size & how early or late you wean.
My store has at least 3 sizes of milk powder, if not 4. I'll have to look it up again, but not all lamb milk is created equal. Get the good stuff. 

My sheep are so picky & hate stemmy, hard hay. Alfalfa is just hard stems with leaves that crumble away..my sheep hated it. So, I use pellets.

You don't need fly spray if their bottoms stay clean. If they get the squirts & you don't clean that up & stop it, fly strike may happen. Far less worry of it the earlier it is in spring or later in autumn. Any horse fly spray or livestock spray will work. Just spray the immediate area.


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## purplequeenvt (Oct 28, 2020)

messybun said:


> I’ve been doing research, a lot of it. And more questions! One, if I manage to have a bottle baby about how many bags of formula do they go through before they are weaned?
> Two, what fly spray do you use to repel fly strike? I already use diatomaceous earth on everything I have, but is there something else better for sheep?
> What do you use to keep calcium up? I was thinking alfalfa as a supplement, would compact hay or pellets be better? If they are about equal in effectiveness which do you like better?
> TIA



How much milk replacer you go through will depend on the breed of lamb and how long you keep them on the bottle. A small breed sheep, like a Shetland, is going to go through a lot less MR than something like a Suffolk. I’ve never really paid attention to how many bags per lamb we’ve gone through, but I’m going to guess it was 1 or 2 bags a piece.

You don’t really need to give them anything to prevent fly strike. There are some pour-on drugs you can use. I’d have to dig out my bottle to tell you exactly what it is, but it’s a permethrin based pour-on. The main thing is keep their butts clean.

Don’t buy bagged/compact alfalfa hay from the feed store. It’s super expensive. If you can find alfalfa bales for a decent price go that route. Otherwise, alfalfa pellets are an option.


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## Baymule (Nov 7, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> You guys drove 1400 miles for a ram?


Sure did. Once I take a notion, there ain’t no stopping me. Once @Mike CHS said he was going to replace Ringo, I claimed him and waited a year for him. BJ griped all the way to Tennessee but he fell in love with Ringo too. I’d do it again in a heartbeat. I drag that man around, sometimes kicking and screaming, in my wild and crazy schemes and dreams. He married a tornado but he loves the storm.   

And now I’m talking with you on SS about turkeys...... BJ has already voiced his opposition. Come spring, I’m getting turkeys and he can complain till the cows come home. I’ll shove a bite in his face and after that he’ll be on board. LOL LOL


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## Sheepshape (Nov 8, 2020)

Only just caught up with this thread.

Nobody with sound mind thinks "It would be nice to keep a few sheep.....they'll keep my grass down'..... Time consuming contrary things that lie around in fields trying to think of a fun way to die....or something similar said my vet.

Like Baymule I'd trawl the country for a 'sexy, long, desirable' ram....but am blessed with a neighbour who is a  real sheep expert and buys very expensive rams and lets me BORROW them. Now I'll only hint at what I have to do to return this favour....but it involves dragging sheep around in his 'shed' and persuading them to jump in dips, get scanned or just 'behave'.....oh and I make bread, too.

Sheep are amazing though......intelligent, (yes you read that right), friendly (ditto) and very rewarding to keep...but darned hard work.

Good Luck.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 12, 2020)

The more you read and learn the better prepared you will be for the actual thing.  Start small and grow with your sheep.  As you keep sheep and go through the various routines and seasons you will start to realize that they are not as much trouble as many people think.  *Proper preparation* is the key to successful livestock keeping.  

Proper fencing and housing are essential, followed by feeding, nutrition, vaccines, and being able to judge condition. Most sheep are able to lamb by themselves.  Stories of pulling lambs are not the norm.  Most of the time the ewe handles everything herself and you come out to find a new lamb happily nursing.  

Some of us have had many years experience but we continually learn more from others.  You never stop learning.  Learning more is the fun part of livestock keeping.

One thing, *do not get a livestock guardian dog before getting your sheep*.   Read  all articles about getting an LGD before getting one.  They require lots of research into the type of LGD that will be suitable for your situation.  The wrong dog can be more trouble than the predators.  The right dog will be worth 10 times what you pay.


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## Baymule (Nov 12, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> Sheep are Sexy?


Durn sure are!


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## Mike CHS (Nov 12, 2020)

I am not sure how I missed this thread but I will go back to the start and catch up.  I didn't drive as far as @Baymule did but I drove almost 650 miles to northern Missouri to get the ram that replaced the one she got from us.  Every ram within 500 miles of us had the same pedigree and I had to go outside that 500 miles to find new blood.


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## Sheepshape (Nov 12, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> Please show me a picture of sexy sheep.



Well....observe the 'look' in the eyes of those two rams and the lovely Minnie on the near side of the fence....they see she is oozing allure.  Looks like a morbidly obese old ewe to me...hey, but who am I to judge?





So you may not exactly see what the attraction is, but try to put yourself into the hooves of those rams.

Oh, and the girls like big, strong, sturdy rams......but they'll accept 'any port in a storm'


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## Baymule (Nov 13, 2020)

Only need 1 ram unless you send the rest to freezer camp.

I have a set of twin lambs a few weeks old. The ram lamb was humping his sister and standing on his tiny back legs trying to hump the ewes at less than a week old! Maybe not sexy, but sure is sex crazed! And that is why ram lambs get whisked away and weaned at 2 months old.


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## Ridgetop (Nov 17, 2020)

By self sustaining do you mean no need to import new blood?

You need to know that you can breed the same ram for 2 generations without problems but the 3rd generation will show problems and should all be terminal or slaughter lambs.   Keeping sons of the original ram for breeding stock is not the answer either unless you have a lot of rams servicing a lot of ewes and can separate them into separate breeding groups.  Any son of the original ram will also be a half brother to all daughters of the original ram.  It gets more inbred by the second generation which is the reason you need to replace the flock ram with an unrelated ram.

If you are breeding sheep for your own freezer and have a market for freezer lambs for others, then keeping one ram for the flock is fine.  If you are interested in breeding better stock and improving your flock genetics, then you need  to buy stud rams that will give you what you want or need.

Baymule bought a top quality ram from MikeCHS to improve her flock's genetics, both for meat and also parasite hardiness.  She has been replacing lesser quality ewes with better ewes to ugrade her flock.  MikeCHS has been breeding for parasite hardiness for several years and replaces his rams with a view to better parasite control as well as better meat, temperaments, etc.  Sincere sheep breeders know that their sheep are not only for brush/pasture control, but for meat or wool.   When we replace stud rams (half the flock genetics)  we look for the best ram we can find.  

If you buy a ram for better meat production, you look for a long bodied ram with heavy muscling and thick rear legs carrying meat down into the twist.  
If you buy a ram to produce better ewes for the flock you look for one that will carry genetics for heavy milk production, ease of lambing and strong maternal traits.
If you raise a lot of meat for the commercial market, then you want a ram that will produce lambs that grow fast and gain weight quickly since the faster they go to slaughter the more economical your operation is. 
Sheep that gain well and produce on forage alone are more desirable for commercial operations than breeds that require higher protein diets or diets high in supplements.
If you are raising wool sheep, you need to produce lambs with strong genetics for the specific type of wool you wish to produce.  Australia has a made breed that is reserved for the Australian wool market just for carpet wool.   Certain wool breeds carry wool for specific spinning.   Depending on your market and buyers, you would buy a ram that would produce that type of wool in your flock.

Buying a stud ram means knowing your own sheep and knowing what you want to produce for your purposes.  Your ram will contribute half the genetics to the future flock.   There is no faster way to better your flock than by using top quality rams.  There is also no faster way to ruin your flock than to use a poor ram just because he is available or cheap.

Know your breed, know what you want to produce, and choose a stud ram carefully.


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## secuono (Dec 7, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> You guys drove 1400 miles for a ram?



I hired someone to pickup sheep from Cali, I'm in Virginia. 🤷🏽‍♀️ So...


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## Mike CHS (Dec 7, 2020)

Our fence is a mix of Red Brand 330' rolls of wire and Gaucho High Tensile woven wire.  The Gaucho is half the weight of the Red Brand and considerably lower cost at $179 - $189 depending on height. I prefer the Gaucho since it is light weight enough for me to put it up by myself if necessary.   Besides being lighter, you can stretch it tighter and use a lot less T-posts.  We use poly electric rope and netting on the interior and would never think about using it as a perimeter fence.  That being said, I know people that use netting as a temporary perimeter fence but their sheep are already trained to it.  I have had a few that would routinely go under but they can't go anywhere.  Keep in mind that your fence needs to be able to keep animals out as well as keep yours in.


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## Beekissed (Dec 7, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> So Bee and all, I'm up to 201 fencing and I'm getting a sad feeling that I may not be able to "justify" fencing in 5 acres for sheep and a hefeir/calf pair plus one steer like I want to.
> 
> Can we have a honest to goodness discussion about fencing options? Mainly for sheep but also goats and cows. I'm familiar and comfortable with high tensile electric fencing but is it really a good option for "general purpose" containment and protection of sheep, goats and cows? I've heard but don't know for a fact that sheep have a high tolerance to pain and will risk being shocked for a sweet smelling rose. The last thing I want is my livestock out roaming around unsafe and doing damage to someone else's property.
> 
> ...



If you have a static paddock and are not rotating to fresh graze, it's likely that high tensile will not serve your needs.  Hungry sheep will seek food outside of the high tensile if they are hungry enough.  Cattle will obey the fence better than goats and sheep.  I do rotational grazing, so have used 3 strand high tensile on my perimeter and the sheep  respond to it just fine...got to keep it hot, so sufficient joules and a low impedance charger is a must.  

For just 5 acres, you could just do woven wire sheep fencing with an offset of electric at the top and bottom to deter predators and any animal wanting to lean over the fencing.  Also can keep the goats from climbing on it.   If you want to grow your own food, it's well worth the initial investment and it also can increase your property value.  It would also keep in any livestock guardian dogs you may want to have in there.


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## Baymule (Dec 7, 2020)

Our 8 acres is totally enclosed in 2"x4"x48" non climb horse wire. The front gate is deep set for truck and trailer room. No way I would depend on hot wire for an outside parameter fence. We have horses, sheep, 5 big dogs, chickens, right now, until March 3, we have a steer. 

You could use the sheep and goat wire, it has 4" holes and would do a fine job of keeping your stock (and dogs) IN and everyone else's OUT. 

@Crealcritter here is my fence thread. We made a lot of mistakes, it was open discussion, and mistakes were pointed out and the correct way was discussed. It is a pretty good tutorial on what to do right/wrong and I hope it helps you. 






						Non-Climb 2"x4" Horse Wire Fence
					

There have been a lot of fence discussions here on BYH. As many of you know, my husband and I bought a home on 8 acres and moved 160 miles to be close to our DD, DSIL and our precious 2 grand daughters. There was nothing here but the house. Nothing. We had a house in town and acreage outside of...



					www.backyardherds.com
				




Gates. You can never have too many gates. I used more 12' gates than I did 16' gates......should have used more 16' gates. Allow swing room. I used the wire filled gates from Tractor Supply. My dogs stand on their hind legs and climb between the wire filled part and the top bar of the gate. We modified them with rebar wired to the gate and wire to raise the height of the gate and close up the stupid gap. Where we just closed the gap with wire and didn't raise the height of the gate, Trip just jumps it. LOL


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## Baymule (Dec 7, 2020)

This is the sheep and goat wire. It does not say hi tensile. 



			https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/bekaert-sheep-goat-fence-330-ft-1348-4-125-ga-213412
		


Why fence 5 acres only to tear it down? You need to plan this out better. Yes on fencing the 10 acres, but why not make your first fence a pasture? Our 8 acres has 5 pastures. We fenced it in patches.


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## secuono (Dec 7, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> So Bee and all, I'm up to 201 fencing and I'm getting a sad feeling that I may not be able to "justify" fencing in 5 acres for sheep and a hefeir/calf pair plus one steer like I want to.
> 
> Can we have a honest to goodness discussion about fencing options? Mainly for sheep but also goats and cows. I'm familiar and comfortable with high tensile electric fencing but is it really a good option for "general purpose" containment and protection of sheep, goats and cows? I've heard but don't know for a fact that sheep have a high tolerance to pain and will risk being shocked for a sweet smelling rose. The last thing I want is my livestock out roaming around unsafe and doing damage to someone else's property.
> 
> ...



My main property is slightly more than 4 useable acres. Perimeter woven fence & then cross fencing, also woven. I tried hot wire one year. I used 4 strands, up to 2ft high. It worked on freshly shorn ewes & their lambs. Once their wool grew in, ehh. 
I keep several rams, so I didn't want to bother with risking them getting out, so I sucked it up & bought woven fencing. 

I would, personally, never keep any animals without a 4ft, woven fence. To keep others out & to keep mine in.
You can do the work yourself & save a lot. Buy in bulk, wait for sales & save a little more.


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## Mike CHS (Dec 7, 2020)

That has the same specs of the Gaucho that I posted earlier and has the same pluses.  We still have hot wire both high and low.


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## Beekissed (Dec 7, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> Thanks Everyone looking here at tractor supply. Which woven wire would I be looking at?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We do 20-25 ft spacing on our high tensile fence posts.  Look into the Timeless fence posts if you do the high tensile...easiest and cheapest, plus has a 20 yr guarantee and you can even drive over them and they won't break.


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## Baymule (Dec 8, 2020)

We fenced 16 acres in field fencing. The horses pawed it and tore it up. For whatever reason that blasted Longhorn bull walked the fence line, hooking it and he tore it up. A stallion in the neighborhood would get loose and he chose our place to make a fight-we had no stallions. But he would run up and down our fence and he tore it up. I have not had good experience with field fencing. But there is no reason that your experience will be the same as mine. 

*Be sure to put up electric wire on the posts to keep the animals off of it. *

@Mike CHS can you please post pictures of your fence and hot wire? 

In answer to the above question, we set the wire on the ground to deter varmits and to convince our dogs not to squeeze under the fence and take off.


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## Beekissed (Dec 8, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> I believe I've settled on Bekaert Solidlock Pro High Tensile Fixed Knot Fence, 12.5 ga. 949-12. Seems like a good all purpose fence and not too expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I love the looks of that stuff!  How does it do in the long term?


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## Mike CHS (Dec 8, 2020)

Baymule said:


> @Mike CHS can you please post pictures of your fence and hot wire?



Here are a couple from a couple of years ago but it hasn't changed.  The first picture is from the south end of our pastures.  The second shows our middle 5 acres that we had divided into three paddocks using poly rope on the right side and netting on the left.  We rotated a couple of steers with the sheep and they respected the 11,000 volts going through there.  We run one hot wire low to keep the sheep from rubbing the fence and a hot and ground wire above the fence.


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## Beekissed (Dec 8, 2020)

In a way....means you have plenty of grass.  But you don't want to have too few mouths and feet on the grass that it gets away from you and gets past the boot stage, which means they will then pick around it and eat the more tender grasses below it.  It will take a bit of time for you to find out the right number of stock you need to keep the grass down but not over graze it at any given time of the year.

What you have growing tall there is broom sedge and only in its youngest stage will anything eat it..it's invasive and many people fight it like crazy.  You'll want to keep that grazed right off, trampled and anything else you can do to get it gone.


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## Baymule (Dec 8, 2020)

Broom sedge is poverty grass. 

@Mike CHS photos show the insulator he uses, it sticks out away from the fence by several inches. It keeps the animals off the fence.


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## secuono (Dec 8, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> Thoughts?  Cheap for a reason?
> 
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/bekaert-solidlock-pro-high-tensile-fixed-knot-fence-125-ga-949-12-500-ft-657281



Gaucho fence, idk the difference between them in the bekaert brand, but the wire is stiff! It's not easy to bend and tie off, like red brand is. I have two lines of it, its lighter than other brands. Just harder to wrap & secure around end posts. 
Idk if it's good enough for cattle, but if using electric to keep them off it, it should be fine. Cattle rolls are much thicker gauge, heavy stuff!


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## Mike CHS (Dec 8, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> I love the looks of that stuff!  How does it do in the long term?



Most of ours has been up going on 5 years with no sign of wear.  It has actually stayed tighter than the Red Brand.


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## Baymule (Dec 9, 2020)

A cougar can leap a 4 or 5 foot fence without touching the hot wire at the top, just so you know. Big barky dogs are a good deterrent, but even they are not 100% against a cougar. They are the best option though. Put your stock up at night in a board and wired in, roofed area that a cougar cannot get in. Leave the dogs out, but with shelter to get out of the weather and they will patrol at night. Don't give them the run of the whole place, you just want an outer parameter around the barn for them to patrol. 

no experience with bears, but I understand that a HOT wire will make them leave.


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## Baymule (Dec 10, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> Thoughts?  Cheap for a reason?
> 
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/bekaert-solidlock-pro-high-tensile-fixed-knot-fence-125-ga-949-12-500-ft-657281


I hate field fencing. I thought the small holes at the bottom would be great, they weren't. The fence has 6" holes in it. Sheep and Goats can stick their fool heads through it. If they have horns, they will get stuck. If the hot wire is on, it will continually shock them, pulsing of course. If you don't find them real soon, they will die. 

The best fence for you at the best value is the sheep and goat wire with 4" holes. Plan your fence out, no need to put up a temporary fence, only to take it down later. Take your time, put up a good fence.


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## Baymule (Dec 11, 2020)

Yes the sheep and goat wire is cheaper than non climb horse wire, plus it comes on a 300’ roll. It will suit your needs. I probably went overboard on the horse wire after a bad field fence experience. LOL


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## Mike CHS (Dec 16, 2020)

I'm not sure what you are looking for.  Are you wanting a guardian or a herd dog?


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## messybun (Dec 16, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> I need an active yippee dog for coyote protection.


A guardian then. LGDs guard the stock, herding dogs...herd. I don’t believe herding dogs would protect the flock the same as LGDs do. Btw, lgd stands for livestock guardian dog, it took me forever to figure that acronym out lol.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 17, 2020)

DW won't be thrilled because LGDs are flock dogs...they visit people but live in the barns and fields with the livestock.  That's a real simplified statement but, it's the truth.  She'll have to accept they won't need or want to hang on a soft bed inside.   That Aussie is pretty, not the best for guardian.    Personally, Anatolian, Marema is where I'd go if I ever buy one.  If you use all acreage, one will need to be a pair.

And you just thought buying a farm, adding animals would be real simple -- right?


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## Baymule (Dec 17, 2020)

No on the Aussie guarding sheep, chasing would be more like it. Take yourself over to the Livestock Guardian Dog forum and start studying. Come up for air every so often for and ask questions. LGDs are different from any other dog you have ever had. Educate yourself. Read, read, and read some more. LGDs are not something you walk into blindly.


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## Finnie (Dec 17, 2020)

What Baymule said.

Also, I’ve read that you shouldn’t get an LGD until after you have the livestock for it to guard. So you have some time. If you are wanting a replacement pup for your hunting dog because he’s starting to get old, then that would be separate from an LGD. For that the possibilities are endless. I have seen a pit bull that was an awesome all around farm dog. Then there is the Old Time Scotch Collie.

Your shepherd mix sounds like a great dog. I wonder how hard it would be to get another that was the same. Probably a crap shoot. One mix I would definitely stay away from is any type of LGD-herding dog mix. You don’t want to combine chasing instincts into a livestock guard mentality. You will learn about this kind of thing when you stalk the LGD section of the forum.


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## secuono (Dec 17, 2020)

Crealcritter said:


> Curious how many here have LGD that lives with the herd 24x7x365?
> View attachment 79621



I do.
Always outside, never in my house or on my porch.
Just got a 3/4 Anatolian, tiny bit of GP mixed in, and she's far superior to all my previous dogs. She has real instincts to be with her sheep & not wherever else.

LGD breeds are-
Short coated- Akbash, Anatolian, Kangal.
Longer coated- Great Pyrenees, Karakachan, Komondor(dreadlocks), Maremma & Polish Tatra.

There are a few others, but they are very new to the states & haven't been proven to do the job yet. At least, not that I've seen, so, I left those off.

Her first snow, sleeps out on snow instead of in barn during the day. Short coat doesn't make her cold, not like a Doberman coat, that is very short & thin, with no undercoat.


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## Baymule (Dec 17, 2020)

You MUST have a good fence. LGDs own the land they stand on, they own everything they see. If they are not contained, they roam. Many get lost that way. 

My dogs are outside 24-7, but they all can come in to have a short time off. On stormy nights, Trip, our male Great Pyrenees, will come to the house and we let him in. He is terrified of thunder, was before and after being neutered. We do put him out when we go to bed, and he stays on the porch.


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## Beekissed (Dec 18, 2020)

CC, my best LGD was a female Akbash and I could take her anywhere.  I used to take her to the nursing home where I worked and she would sit up and beg like a poodle and the residents would give her dog treats.  She was not dog aggressive to dogs off her own guard territory, people friendly to the max unless they were creeping around the place when we were not at home and even got her picture on the cover of Star magazine once.  She was an all around excellent family dog and beautiful to behold.  

She would roam if not in fencing, though, as I didn't have large acreage for her to guard but she also obeyed wireless electric containment perfectly even without a physical fence in place.  Very sensitive to training and correction of any kind.  

I haven't had pure Anatolians long enough to attest to how they will be towards humans when they get old enough to be considered mature.  Right now I'm really liking how Blue stays on the land when he could be roaming all over(he can slip easily under the high tensile)....he stays with his flock and this new little one seems to be bonding even more closely to the sheep than he is.  That sort of behavior keeps a dog home, no matter the fencing you have. 

The other day one of our absentee neighbors was walking our property line and Blue had seen him here once before, so was not barking at him....but he was definitely keeping a close eye on him.  Meanwhile, the little 9 wk old female pup had moved the flock to the extreme back of that paddock and was barking at the man from there, way up on the hill.   I was just gobstoppered over that little pup's instincts....I've never seen one so young bark at strangers, nor know what to do when a threat appeared.  Blue advanced towards the threat, but since he had seen this man talking to me previously for some time and I went down to speak to him once again, he was not barking or posturing at him.   Pinky moved the stock as far from the perceived threat as she could get them and then guarded from that high point.  

So far I'm incredibly impressed with the intelligence and instinct I see in the Anatolian breed.


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## Beekissed (Dec 20, 2020)

Can't see the pic, CC.  100 sheep on 5 acres????  He has a feed lot situation.....very hard to manage parasites in such a setup.  If I were you I'd try to go on FB in your state and find folks who are farming sheep the way you want to, because all the advice you get from a feed lot farmer is going to be geared towards that kind of farming and doesn't translate well to someone who is going to be mostly grass based and rotating pasture.


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## Baymule (Dec 20, 2020)

Many people, many ways of doing things, many ideas, all combine for you to sort out and apply what works for you. 

Gee, what words of wisdom, I sound Smart!

OR...........

Many people, many ways of doing things, many ideas, all combine to confuse the crap outa you and it is all clear as a bucket of mud.


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## Baymule (Dec 20, 2020)

Oh no, never give  up! Just make mudpies!


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