# Health Issues for LGDs



## Bossroo (Dec 23, 2012)

We have seen many posts for the virtues of the LGDs, how cute the pups are,  and a few about their late maturity. Since most of us are new to these breeds and invest our hard earned dollars and much time into these guard dogs...   How about posting some of the inherited  health issues that one may expect for a particular breed at maturity and older age  as well as their expected life span ?  Health issues such as for eyes, ears, lymph nodes, heart, cancers, hip dysplacia, or ?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 23, 2012)

There is a good organization that has guidelines for different breeds, however, the parent breed club must be a member, so  many of the LGD breeds are not listed.  The Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Tibetan Mastiff are listed. Most  LGD breeders do not take part in this however it is a good idea, but not always practical. Most breeders of these dogs are show breeders and their dogs are not bred or used for LG. There is one breeder I know of in NC that shows and works his dogs and has his dogs CHIC certified, if you will.

 Although all these recommended tests are great it also costs a fortune... and I mean a fortune! So the pups that come out of this are usually out of the average farmers price range. Where there are many breeders that have great dogs without health issues that work and cost far less. The breeder of my males (GP) has a 15 year old pyr still working in the field. Never had hip, elbow, skin, heart, or eye issues.There are arguments, and good ones at that, for both sides. In the end it boils down to ..how much livestock would you need to justify the price of the dog? If the dog is $1200-$2000 or even $900 that is alot of goats and sheep you'd have to lose. AND the one thing most people don't want to face is the reality of their LGD being killed by being outnumbered in a predator situation. I hate to say this, but putting all emotion and love for my dogs aside... if they were to be killed in the line of duty I could replace a $400-$600 dog, but I would be hard pressed to replace a $1200 dog.

The rarer the breed the harder it is, IMO. The Anatolians can be so sensitive to anesthesia, they can drop dead easily and it makes that very difficult for elbows hips etc to be tested. Many Anatolians can ONLY have the 5 way puppy shot, no 7-ways for these guys. Their vaccine schedule is usually a bit different also.  The heat cycle for many last as long as 30 days.

Check out this  and click on the breed you are interested in and you will see the recommended tests for the Great Pyrenees, Kuvasz, Tibetan Mastiff

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org  also known as "CHIC"

BTW- My GSD has some of her tests done but I need to wait til she's of age for the rest! 
If  I decide to ever breed my pyrs I will also do Chic testing, and will definitely have it done for my one male so he can be used as stud.


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## Grazer (Dec 23, 2012)

Most LGD breeds are generally healthy, especially when compared to the more "modern" breeds of the same size.
A good list of LGD breeds: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog#List_of_breeds 

Some LGD breeds are healthier than others and within the same breed some lines carry more genetic diseases than others too.

The diseases that affect these breeds most often are: Hip/Elbow Dysplasia, Hypothyroidism, Heart diseases, Ectropion & Entropion, Bloating etc.

I do believe that a well bred LGD pup should come from parents that have been properly health and temperament tested first, but....
like Southern by choice already pointed out, screening your breeding stock for genetic diseases costs a lot of money.
And some of the more rare LGD breeds are very expensive to obtain to begin with (you can count on anywhere between $800 and $5000 or even more). So all that adds to the cost of a puppy.

For most farmers this is way out of their price range. 
On the other hand there are breeders out there that produce LGD's for cheap, don't health test and yet their dogs come out without health and temperament issues.
Why is that? In my opinion it can only happen if their dogs are working, proven and if they are ethical breeders, which means they don't breed dogs with issues. 
And that's the key to success for any future LGD owner: finding a reputable, ethical breeder that puts the health, longevity and the correct temperament first. 

I would also like to add that personally I think it's outrageous for anyone to sell pups of these majestic breeds for over $800 without screening their parents for any genetic diseases what so ever first. 
I mean if you are going to ask so much money for a puppy that is supposed to be working one day (these breeds were bred for a purpose, which is why I'm not a fan of show lines in these working breeds),
then surely you can afford to do at least the basic health screening (i.e. x-raying the hips, getting a clearance on the eyes and the heart) on your breeding stock?
But unfortunately there are way too many breeders out there that are only in it for the money and not for the betterment of the breed.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 23, 2012)

amen to that grazer!

I know this might step on some toes but I will say it anyway... buying a puppy from a picture over the internet especially as a 3wk-5wk old pup is a very bad idea. I also would NEVER buy a pup sight unseen and have it flown to me. 

Not EVERY pup will be a good LGD. It is important to see an 8 week old pup IN THE FIELD. The pups will have different personalities, it is important to see the pup and watch and know it's strengths. See how it interacts etc.  Picking a pup because you like the color and it looks cute....simply ridiculous. 

If the animal is far from me a) I want to see a video of the pup and it's interaction b) I want the bite shown to me C) check all pigmentation D) I want to know the person I'm talking to has a clue about confirmation, structure etc

I'm working on a page now for how to pick an LGD pup. The most important thing to me is temperment and LGD's are NOT like other dogs  so what happens is that if you are using the standard "how to pick a puppy" you may end up with the wrong dog. LGD's are not assessed in the same way.


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## Karma (Dec 23, 2012)

Well here I will step in and say I've had good luck buying puppies through the internet however I'm also from a dog breeding family and have been involved in dog sports my entire life so when I decided to plop down hundreds on a dog I found a breeder with not only stellar dogs but also an awesome reputation among those in her breed and among her puppy buyers for making good matches between puppies and potential buyers, she happened to be in Iowa and I happened to be in CT at the time. Buying over the internet can be done with good results but you need to research it more to know what you are getting and you need to let the breeder choose the puppy that will best fit your needs and goals. I am very pleased with my purchase, enough I bought 2 more from her. One good way to do research is to join breed/group forums to get recommendations on breeders and attend dog events or shows and talk to the breeders and exhibitors about what you are looking for, we actually were reccomended to our breeder at a dog show, she doesn't show at all but a lot of those that do an want working ability in their dogs use her stock.

We've had titled dogs, show dogs, working dogs, health tested dogs, and one thing I will stick to is to me health testing is worthless without a dog being proven & worked. Additionally testing is not always perfectly accurate or a good indicator the puppy will be without genetic disease. Many genetic diseases (HD for example) are polygenic and two dogs who are unaffected can still produce affected offspring. And with hips, that rating is only using the outward structure of the dog - for example it can't tell you your bitch has 3 of the needed 5 genes and the stud has the other 2 needed. My aunt has labs and bred a bitch with good hips to a stud with excellent and still got 3 dysplastic puppies. Positioning can also affect the outcome of the xrays grade. With eye testing, its again something done from appearance not based on the actual genes and many eye diseases do not develop until later in life. Hip and eye clearances basically just mean that dog is currently at the time of the test not affected, it is no guarantee that the dogs can't develop them or that it won't pass them on. Just wanted to make sure no one thinks it is a certain thing, it's not. So because of all this I don't see health testing as the be all end all and will gladly take a puppy from parents who have stayed sound despite being worked into the ground over puppies from a dog who pranced around a ring and has a piece of paper saying he is sound. For a pet or show ring dog, health certificates only is probably okay because those dogs are not undergoing extreme physical demands but when you get into a specialized area where a dogs soundness is KEY to their success and ability to perform a job I want to see a whole lot more than a piece of paper. I want to see pedigrees full of ancestors that were worked and remained sound and good longevity both age wise and how long they kept working, offspring records and records of offspring from sisters and brothers of the parents. Additionally I'm a stickler on health guarantees, I want a full refund or replacement and partial refund if my dog comes up with a genetic defect or disease without loopholes or ridiculous requirements (ie, certain dog foods or vitamins).


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## Grazer (Dec 24, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> amen to that grazer!
> 
> I know this might step on some toes but I will say it anyway... buying a puppy from a picture over the internet especially as a 3wk-5wk old pup is a very bad idea. I also would NEVER buy a pup sight unseen and have it flown to me.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with this and those are some great tips you give there for anyone who has to buy a puppy over the internet.
Let's say they are importing a pup from overseas or they simply live too far away from the breeder and can't fly across the country to see the puppies.
Like you said the standard 'how to pick a puppy article' is not that helpful for beginners who want to pick the right LGD for their situation and these kind of tips are very helpful. 
But it's true... nothing compares to being able to see the puppies and their parents in person first. 
I would always much, much more prefer to buy a puppy after I was able to interact with the whole litter first, check out the parents in real life etc.
And I say this as someone who has bought a puppy both from a breeder in person and through the internet (because that one breeder lived too far).

Btw, maybe you could post your page on how to pick an LGD puppy on this forum once it's done. I'm sure it is going to be a great resource for any LGD beginner.

@ Karma, that is very, very true. Even parents with health clearances can and will sometimes produce affected puppies.
You explained really well in your post why that happens. 
This is why good health guarantees are so important.

Another problem with quite a few LGD breeds (often the more "exotic" ones) out there is that both back in their home country and in the U.S., 
the breeders are not required by their parent breed club to health and/or temperament test their breeding stock.
And there are barely any (if at all) health records from parents, relatives etc of those puppies. 
Which makes it even more difficult for someone who wants one of these more exotic/rare LGD breeds to find the right dog for their situation.

I suppose all a potential buyer can do in this case is do their research thoroughly, make sure the parents are working & proven and go by the breeder's reputation. 
But then again most farmers are not interested in these rarer & more expensive LGD breeds anyway so they will most likely not even have to deal with this issue.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2012)

Karma and Grazer Both  of you have brought up some excellent points!

Grazer...I think I should clarify the internet thing... you made great points! There are breeders out there who really do assess their pups and can match  a pup to a prospective home.  I just think thats far and few. If you have a background in canines, a "dog person" if you will, then you are much better able to determine if the person your dealing with knows what they are doing. Most people are not coming from that kind of background. Most people look and think... that one is cute, I like the color etc. OR sadly, that dog is more $ so it must be a better dog.   With the wonderful world of internet, and great marketing skills with fancy websites I think so many people are really getting taken. 

_I personally stay away from breeders that have pages long of "contract/agreements". Personally, I will feed my dogs what I want to, I will vaccinate on the schedule that I deem appropriate, I will spay/neuter as I feel fit...and Never would I spay a female before she was fully developed, which is 2yrs... (most contracts want them spayed by 1 year) their growth plates are still growing. I find breeders that micro manage their potential pup owners simply ridiculous. I stay away from the "elitist" so to speak.  Unless the breeder is paying my feed bill, paying my vet bills, training my dog, grooming my dog etc they have no "rights" to what I do with it. There is no other purchase that you make that the seller has control over what the purchaser does once the property has been sold. _

When I told the breeder of my male pyrs she  should be charging a good bit more for her dogs this is what she told me...
"I use to...but with this economy and everyone struggling, why would I make it hard for someone to buy a dog to guard their livestock?
People need these dogs."
The breeder also told me AKC has called her many times as to why no one is registering their pups..she simply said..."the people I sell to are working their dogs, they are on farms...they don't care about papers."   SO TRUE!  
She is appalled at the other breeders around her and what they charge for their dogs, she calls them "gougers" 
She is an old farm gal in her 70's- still spry and still farming! 

*Getting back to Boss Roos question...*

Large breeds tend to have hip issues, and many have heart issues. *Grazer has given a more comprehensive list*. Some issues may not be inherent, but caused.

*We love to see our big dogs get big, BUT when you have a giant breed it is wise to keep them a bit on the lean side as to allow their bones to grow properly and not allow them  to get to heavy too quick. This puts a lot of pressure on the joints and hips.
*Worming regularly til 16 weeks will also help your Giant breed reach its full size potential.
*Drop eared dogs are prone to ear infections- checking ears weekly or 2x month is beneficial to the dog
*Heatstroke is an issue- providing shaded treed areas where the dog can dig into the earth to keep cool is necessary. This is important for brain health also. Wading pools are great for hot areas in the summer, if you don't have a pond.
*tapeworm can be an issue, and it's not always from fleas... lizards and frogs can be a source
*Heartworm is a serious issue in many states- many think hairy dogs are less prone...not true
*Gastro-intestinal issues- *DOGS ARE SCAVENGERS*! Keep that in mind ... too pristine of a diet, I believe causes more dermatitis issues.
(I prefer some raw meat mixed with a dry kibble-to be best. Another member on here had great advice... change the food often and you will have less allergy issue...soy, wheat, corn, doesn't really matter.... remember they are scavengers by nature.)

Rare breeds, not really commom to the states _CAN_ have some serious reactions to vaccines. These vaccines are NOT used in their country of origin, so the rarer the breed the greater the possibility. They have not been exposed for generations. The breeder should be able to tell you these things. Same with anesthetics, some breeds are highly sensitive.
*Eyes- Ectropion & Entropion... this is not always a heredity issue... but can be. Most cases are not that big of a deal, severe cases may require a simple surgury to correct. It is not always visible on a pup, it usually appears later  than 8wks.

I am still a big believer of looking at the parent stock... confirmation being the least of a concern... what is the temperament, do they move well, eyes, skin, coat etc.


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## Oakroot (Dec 24, 2012)

Not LGD specific but in general the bigger the dog the more important good diet is. While a yorkie might to fine on kibble from the pet store most big dogs have such massive nutritional requirements that they really do need to have raw meat, bones, stock and the like in their diet. It can double the life span of some animals and with the cost of getting a good LGD and then all the work associated with getting them raised properly and trained it is worth the invest to get the best food you can afford.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2012)

Maybe Coconut will chime in and tell us some of the possible issues the Sarplaninac  may have.


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## Grazer (Dec 24, 2012)

Yes or the Sarpla breeders who posted in this topic http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13288&p=3 
I'm originally from former Yugoslavia, where the Sarplaninac originates. And my grandparents used them for years as LGD's; their Sarpla's would easily reach 12-13 years.
Back then this bread was really healthy and sturdy. Other than occasional cases of hip/elbow dysplasia, I never heard of any other genetic problems in this breed at the time.

But it's been years since I've been around Sarplaninac's
On an ex-Yugoslavian Sarpla forum (that I sometimes read) a lot of breeders there are constantly fighting over the future of this breed and sadly seem to be more concerned about winning dog shows than anything else.
This need to win dog shows rather than to create great working dogs is something I see more and more happening with most other LGD breeds as well unfortunately.

Anyway it would be really nice if Sarpla breeders and breeders of other LGD breeds for that matter could tell us how their breed is doing health wise nowadays. 

Now that I think about it, I suppose I could quickly say something about the general health of the breed we own (Caucasian Ovcharka/shepherd dog). I'm not a breeder, but I could share my experience.
Although overall a healthy breed, the Caucasian shepherd breed can get several health problems. The main ones I have already listed in my previous post ( Hip/Elbow Dysplasia, Hypothyroidism, Heart diseases, Skin issues, Ectropion & Entropion, Bloating etc).
To any potential buyers I will say this: this breed is quite expensive, avoid breeders who breed mainly for looks (unfortunately there are way too many Caucasian shepherd breeders out there who desire massive dogs, which leads to even more health problems). Also keep in mind they are in general human aggressive on their turf and in general they have a higher prey drive than most other LGD breeds.


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## CocoNUT (Dec 24, 2012)

Ok...I'm definitely NOT an expert on shars...but I do have one! They are more prone to hip issues that's for sure. Also, like heartworm and other environmental issues, be aware of TICK-BORNE diseases! We had issues with that this past summer and it was expensive to finally diagnose her. Also, in dealing with the more "exotic/rare" breed LGD (shar being one of them) be prepared for vet staff to NOT be familiar with the traits/characteristics fo the breed and they will often GOOGLE the breed prior to treatment! So KNOW your animal! 

When Gus had gone lame (due to some tick-borne disease...eventhough she'd been treated with anti-flea/tick treatments), the vet at the specialist office ACCUSED me of STARVING Gus...she was too 'skinny' she said. I got pretty forceful with her about her "knowlege" of the breed and she admited she new NOTHING about it...had NEVER seen one....everything she knew was from google...etc. I was LIVID! (& I told her what I thought of her accusations!) Gus was (& still is) growing. She was going through the "looooong" torso stage. That pissed me off! So be preapared for IGNORANCE! Some guy at the local pet store thought she was a german sheppard....REALLY?! OMG! 

Other than the tick thing this past summer - Gus is a healthy dog! Her 'soundness' amazes me constantly! Again, I was repeatedly told to ensure she grows steady and slow...to ensure her joints have the time to adjust to her size.  There is a disease I had posted about this summer that larger dogs CAN suffer from (like Weimeraners) that's caused by the bones growing faster than the joints - VERY painful. 

Grazer - the Caucasian Ovcharka was featured in a "Russian Prisons" episode of Nat Geo. The soviets bred/breed and use/d them to guard prisons as they are bred to be extremely large and aggressive. I've seen some recent YouTube video of "caucasian" dogs being trained...and just in general. They're obviously being bred to be HUGE and aggressive. Most of them have the same coloring as Gus (black and tan) but are VERY furry. Some even make Chow's look hairless. I'm sure those are the dogs of which you're speaking. While I like the look of the Caucasian...they are a significantly larger dog with more aggressive tendencies. VERY powerful. I'm sure they have hip/joint issues if they're not bred well or are allowed to grow too fast. 

And while GPs are GORGEOUS, fluffy balls of love...I'm still partial to my Shar. Gus is AWESOME...and I LOVE watching her grow/work. (Heck...I got a herder AND an LGD all wrapped into one dog!) And the bark....wow!


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## Grazer (Dec 24, 2012)

Yes those are the dogs I was speaking of.
They are not supposed to be really huge even though there is no maximum height or weight in their breed standard.
For males it's preferred to be between 29 and 32 inches tall at withers and for females 27-28 inches. 
Their weight should be in proportion to the height, giving a balanced, imposing appearance. This breed is supposed to be agile and long living, something too many Caucasian shepherd breeders seem to forget.
Originally a livestock guardian breed, they are now mostly used as property/family guardians. Because of their inborn instinct to be distrusting and protective (even downright aggressive on their own property) towards strangers.

Although dark or solid colored dogs are preferred in this breed, the breed standard allows almost any color except for solid black or brown, blue, solid black and tan or a dog with a dark undercoat.
The long haired Caucasian Ovcharka are more popular, even though the standard allows short and intermediate coat in this breed.

This is for instance a short haired Caucasian Shepherd dog: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Owned by the kennel Hranitel Gor.


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## CocoNUT (Dec 24, 2012)

Yeah...I figured you were talking about those dogs. I swear, some of them were so big - as puppies - they seemed FAKE. I can't remember the kennel name of that video...but the dogs didn't seem like they'd be a good 'family' dog! 

There was one video of this guy in protective gear with the dog going at him...while some old lady was smoking (about 10 feet away) on the front porch! I like guardian type dogs...but that was kinda too much. All that fiddling will end up hurting the dogs/breed in the long run unfortunately. The wrong people will get their hands on them and that'll be it.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 24, 2012)

CocoNUT - It's the same with Anatolians in a way too. Most have not heard of them and the ones that have have either not seen or worked or done anything with them. They are a "rare" breed of LGD too.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2012)

The *Tibetan Mastiff* can really vary in size coat and structure. 

It was recognized here in the states by the well known @&* (dog club) whose name I will not mention. Prior to that they were only recognized by Rare Breed clubs.  I think the change of being "recognized" has harmed this breed as well as pretty much every other breed that becomes recognized. Breeders have now "come up" with a so called standard. If you look at Tibetan Mastiffs from all over the world you will see something very different. 

They are wonderful dogs, being large, HD can be a problem, some eye issues, and sometimes Thyroid issues. I am not aware of any breeders (personally) that uses them for LGD's. More family guardians.

Having had the privilege of being around TM's many years ago I have to say they are wonderful, serious, discerning, laid back yet powerful in a second. I would not hesitate to have one of these dogs.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2012)

Karma said:
			
		

> We've had titled dogs, show dogs, working dogs, health tested dogs, and one thing I will stick to is to me health testing is worthless without a dog being proven & worked.


What kind of dogs?


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## Grazer (Dec 24, 2012)

CocoNUT said:
			
		

> Yeah...I figured you were talking about those dogs. I swear, some of them were so big - as puppies - they seemed FAKE. I can't remember the kennel name of that video...but the dogs didn't seem like they'd be a good 'family' dog!
> 
> There was one video of this guy in protective gear with the dog going at him...while some old lady was smoking (about 10 feet away) on the front porch! I like guardian type dogs...but that was kinda too much. All that fiddling will end up hurting the dogs/breed in the long run unfortunately. The wrong people will get their hands on them and that'll be it.


That's very true, breeding them for size and looks may really ruin Caucasian shepherds one day. 
I can only hope that never happens and luckily there are still ethical breeders out there, trying to preserve them.

This breed has always been famous for their natural ability (meaning without having to be trained for it first) to protect whatever they were guarding.
They are not a family dog in the traditional sense of the word. 
Even when their owner is present, some Caucasian shepherds that have been properly socialized while growing up, will still not tolerate any guests on their turf.

Our male has never liked strangers visiting.
And interestingly enough even though he listens to both my husband and me equally, he'll only tolerate people he doesn't know visiting if my husband is around. 
It's like he feels he needs to be more protective if it's just me at home. 
But there are Caucasian shepherds out there that I've known who were far more extreme than our male.

Our female is still quite friendly because she's only 8 months old. Females of this breed are somewhat less aggressive towards strangers in general anyway.
This breed will protect anything that is put under their care, but like you said the way they do it might be too much for a lot of people.
With their background as both a livestock and military guardian dogs, they make wonderful dogs for experienced owners with a good fence looking for a dog that will guard both them and their animals.


@ Southern by choice
I agree and I think what has also harmed the Tibetan Mastiff's is them becoming a status symbol in China over night.
With studs from exclusive lines going for up to $1.5 million... 
It's interesting how with all these landrace LGD breeds, once they become recognized by for instance FCI, 1 type becomes fashionable and all other sub-types are practically disregarded.
There are not that many kennels and owners that use them as LGD's anymore unfortunately. I think Kristina Sherling, the kennel Liongate and a few others are some of the handful breeders in U.S. that uses Tibetan Mastiff's as LGD's.

When a working breed all of a sudden gets selected mainly for their looks and not their temperament, their working ability and their health....things then go downhill very quickly.
I understand a lot of people love to show, but there has to be a balance and LGD breeders should do their very best to preserve their breeds.
Otherwise we'll have yet another huge and fluffy pet breed (no offense to breeds out there that are only being bred to be big, fluffy companion animals  ), which is very unfair to all the people out there looking for a working LGD.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 25, 2012)

I sent a pm to the person who e-mailed me. Hope it finds you.


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## CocoNUT (Dec 26, 2012)

@ Straw - the "specialist" vet had only seen Anatolians! Apparently, they're the 'breed du jour' in the risty area that practice is located. I doubt the people in that area use them as LGDs though...maybe a few. In that area, most things - like cars, purses, animals - are all status symbols. 

@ Grazer - Gus is pretty friendly too...but she listens to my husband better than to me! It kinda irks me as I spend WAAAAY more time with her, play with her, 'train' her, and FEED her! I guess my voice isn't "commanding" enough! I think your male is just more protective of you cause you're EXTRA SPECIAL!   Gus is super friendly...especially with children...OFF property. Haven't really had any issues with anyone trying to come onto our property, into HER territory! But she 'guards' against the school bus, any car driving down the road, the singing going on at the church up the road....! 

I'd LOVE a HUGE, Fluffy lap dog! Thankfully I recognize how BORED Gus would be inside all day!


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 26, 2012)

@Coco

Well that makes sense. Anatolians being the best, most important, smartest....well you know. Just the best. lol


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## CocoNUT (Dec 26, 2012)

@ Straw - OF COURSE! I figured that's why you had one!


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 26, 2012)

CocoNUT said:
			
		

> @ Straw - OF COURSE! I figured that's why you had one!


But of course.


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## honeymeadows (Jan 2, 2013)

We had a problem in our GP with panosteitis which is a long bone inflammatory condition that is common in growing pups. We used anti-inflammatories. First steriods for the pain, and then it flared once or twice after that. After she stopped growing it was no longer a problem.


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