# Nubian goat diagnosis by OSU Animal Disease Diag. Lab.



## DonnaBelle (Jan 6, 2010)

Yesterday the vet informed me even though Gentamicin was recommended for the type of pneumonia Annie has, he wouldn't give it to her because it is prohibited by the FDA for meat/dairy animals because they don't know a safe withdrawn period of time.  Her diagnosis is:

Large # of potential pathogen- PSEUDOMONAS AERUGINOSA. 

Large # of bacteria BACILLUS SP

He said that goats have some of this bacteria naturally but that Annie has a LARGE NUMBER of them.

He sent me home with enough SULMET. A sulfa drug I am to give her for 4 days.

I hope this information is helpful to others. Any comments or observations will be appreciated.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Jan 6, 2010)

Sulmet?  

I know your vet has put some time in on this so far, and seems to be willing to go the extra mile to have things sent off for diagnosis and so forth....but Sulmet?  Sulfa drugs barely work on bad bacterial infections of the gut even when dosed orally and allowed to fight directly with the bacteria, let alone be expected to absorb through the gut and travel through the bloodstream to the lung where it'll encounter pseudomonas aeruginosa.  

I mean...Sulmet?  Really?!?

Based on what I've read, quinolones are effective against pseudomonas aeruginosa..  Baytril (enrofloxacin) is a flouroquinolone, and I've seen some references to it being effective against what you're looking at..  I've also watched, with my own two eyes, my vet dose one of my goats with Baytril.  And then he handed me a few syringes of it to continue treatment.

Surely to goodness if he won't give you gentamicin, he'll _at least_ let you switch from fricken Sulmet to Baytril..  I mean, I'm not even sure Baytril will work, ya know, but at least you're in the doggone ballpark!  And Baytril injectable is a cattle med...if it couldn't be used in food animals, it wouldn't exist.

If you can't even get Baytril, bail and find another vet.  As your looking for another vet, though, make a friend in your area with cattle or goats who keeps Baytril or Gentamicin on hand..  Baytril probably wouldn't be that hard to find, as it's in a lot of cattle producers' medicine cabinets all the time.

My $.02...this is just ridiculous.    Best of luck to ya.


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## helmstead (Jan 6, 2010)

um...I agree w/cmjust0


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## ()relics (Jan 6, 2010)

Sulmet is the wonder drug for chickens/birds with respiratory infections....but for goats?  I would be shocked if it worked....But I've been wrong before.


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## JerseyXGirl (Jan 6, 2010)

I will be watching this thread, please keep us updated on your goat and I hope for your sake and hers that it works.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 6, 2010)

i'm joining the standing there shocked crowd. really! sulmet???

but

i do remember something about it and respiratory stuff..  maybe they think its for the specific type of pneu.??

but it works superduper fast...so maybe thats what he's hoping for?

as far as:
he wouldn't give it to her because it is prohibited by the FDA for meat/dairy animals because they don't know a safe withdrawn period of time

ummm.. you could always tell her she's now a pet and not a production animal??

golly. i think we are all watching and wondering. we'll all be tuning in tomorrow morning for the update!

but good luck!!


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 6, 2010)

OK guys, don't worry, I'll keep you informed.  In fact, I called the vet back this afternoon and told him what CM said about the Baytril, AND ALSO WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE SULMET.  

Now get this:  The vet agreed with CM.  But he had been told by the head vet at OSU, our Oklahoma Ag college, to use the Sulmet.
So I asked him about the Baytril, and he said if the Sulmet doesn't work, we'll try the  Baytril, or Nuflor.  But more than one shot.

The vet is only out of vet school about 2 years.  We don't have a vet around here that does much with goats.  So I thought that at least Dr. G. keeps in contact with the school.

Good thing I'm giving her Probios plus twice a day.

In the meantime, she is jumping around and eating, doesn't have any temperature.  

Do you guys think I'm being nutso??  

Donna


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## ksalvagno (Jan 6, 2010)

I would also keep Draxxin in mind. Supposedly it is an 8 day antibiotic for lungs but I used it on my Boer doeling and gave her the second shot after 3 days. She cleared up.


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## ()relics (Jan 6, 2010)

I like my vet to tell me how to fix my problem _rather_ than me telling him what I think might work....sorry...JMO


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 6, 2010)

Well, yes, I agree, about the vet telling me what to do.

The problem is, I don't think my vet knows what to do.

If I could find a good goat vet, I'd switch in a heartbeat.  

Not many vets worry about goats.  Not many people have them, they sure don't pull in the $ like cats, dogs, horses, and cattle.

They are kind of viewed in the same light as chickens, oh, pitch that one and get another.

It seems much is based on the $ and that's just a fact of life.

Donna


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## cmjust0 (Jan 6, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> OK guys, don't worry, I'll keep you informed.  In fact, I called the vet back this afternoon and told him what CM said about the Baytril, AND ALSO WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THE SULMET.
> 
> Now get this:  The vet agreed with CM.


You didn't have to act so shocked.  





			
				DB said:
			
		

> But he had been told by the head vet at OSU, our Oklahoma Ag college, to use the Sulmet.
> So I asked him about the Baytril, and he said if the Sulmet doesn't work, we'll try the  Baytril, or Nuflor.  But more than one shot.


More than one shot, or no more than one shot?  I see what you wrote, but I read it as 'no more' the first time through and utterly confused myself.  Confirm that for me -- _more_ than one shot?   

I hope so..  I would think he'd give a pretty good round of Baytril, just to avoid the prospect of running into a Baytril-resistant relapse with one shot.

Also...when's the determination gonna be made about the Sulmet?  After four days?  If so...yeah, you're gonna get your Baytril on Monday, f'sho.



			
				DB said:
			
		

> The vet is only out of vet school about 2 years.  We don't have a vet around here that does much with goats.  So I thought that at least Dr. G. keeps in contact with the school.


If you can convince him that you're never gonna threaten to take his license through some nasty court battle and that your goats are good learning experiences for him, he might open up a bit and be more willing to color outside the lines to learn new tricks on goats.

I think that's part of why our vets are good to us..  We totally understand that if they give them a cat penis relaxer pill (yep..true story) and the goat flops over dead, I'm not going to sue anybody.  I'm going to say, 'Well, it was worth a shot, doc.  Thanks for your help' and head off to bury my goat.



			
				DB said:
			
		

> Good thing I'm giving her Probios plus twice a day.
> 
> In the meantime, she is jumping around and eating, doesn't have any temperature.
> 
> ...


Have you ever posted a picture of her snottiness?  I mean...how bad is it?  Does she ever have labored breathing or anything like that?

I'd like to _see_ this goat..  Well...I'd actually like to lay hands on her, but seeing it is a good first step.

I mean, from what you're describing.....while I realize that the test just came back and said she had this really horrible form of pneumonia...and she may very well have quantities of that bacteria sufficient to constitute pneumonia _on paper_...but suffice it to say that I've found that goats just aren't much on _reading_.


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 6, 2010)

Hi CM and all,

Well, when I said "shots" I meant that I would hope he would give her a series, not just one shot.  

The first time I took her to the vet, he gave her one shot of Nuflor, which really did nothing.

I could tell when he called me yesterday and told me that he had talked to his professor/mentor at OSU he was not going to give me the gentamicin.  He is really doing a CYA if you know what I mean.  And believe me, I don't blame him.  If it's off-label and I decided to sue him, well, I just don't blame him for protecting his degree and his livelihood.  Plus, I have only  known him since Sept. 09 when he started treating Annie.  The only thing he knows about me is that I am willing to write him a check for taking care of a goat, which a lot of people who have them won't even bother to worm.

So, if I can get a good picture of her snotty nose tomorrow, I'll post it. 

Thanks for everyone's concern.  And CM, come on down to OKlahoma and I'll show you my goat.

Donna


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## ksalvagno (Jan 6, 2010)

If this vet is willing to work with you and learn, then that is a good thing too and eventually he will be a good goat vet. Sometimes a willing to learn vet is just as good as a knowledgeable one. I can speak from experience with the alpacas.

As he gets to know you and as he gets more comfortable in his own practice, he may ease up on the drug thing. I have a very good relationship with my vets and can usually get the drugs I need with no problem.


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## Roll farms (Jan 6, 2010)

Info taken from Langston U.'s site...

There are few drugs cleared by the Food and Drug Administration for use in goats. Many drugs used to treat diseases in goats are used in an off-label manner, meaning that they are administered in a manner not according to their labeled use. This is referred to as ELDU (extra-label drug use) and *can only be authorized by a veterinarian in the context of a valid veterinarian - client - patient relationship. *In general this means that 1) the veterinarian has been to the farm, examined the animal(s) in question and determined that no approved drug exists to treat their condition or that the dosage prescribed for an approved drug is ineffective; 2) the veterinarian instructs the producer on proper use and administration of the drug and determines an appropriate withdrawal period; and 3) the veterinarian is available in the case of adverse reaction to the drug and for follow-up examination and treatment. All three conditions must be met for ELDU. Complete records of animal number, drug given, dosage, route of administration, date, and specified withdrawal period must be maintained for all ELDU.

I read that as your vet CAN help you...if they're willing.


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 7, 2010)

Hi all,

When I stopped by to pick up the Sulmet he came out and talked with me.  He said the reason they won't give a meat/dairy animal the Gentamicin is because there is no withdrawal period established.  Therefore no way to establish liability to the vet should a person become ill from the dairy/meat of an animal given the Gentamicin.

At first, when he did the cultures, and found out Gentamicin would be the best antibiotic for the illness Annie has, he said he would give it to her if I would sign and affidavit to not eat her or milk her.
I was willing to do that.  However after he talked to OSU, he changed his mind and said no way, because no matter what I signed it could cost him his license because of the FDA law.  He is forbidden by law to give it to an animal that could be milked/eaten.  I told him that I knew a breeder that used it, and he immediately said "where did she get it"  I told him she had said she got it off the internet, and he said she had to have a prescription to do that, and I said she said no, she just ordered without a prescription.  He seemed astounded that someone would do that.  Now remember, he is young, only out of vet school for about 2 years, and is very much following the rules.

I am giving Annie the Sulmet, started yesterday with 3 ounces. She sure doesn't like it.  It tastes awful. It's definately bitter stuff.

So, this is for sure a continuing saga.  I do have the option of taking her up to OSU if it comes to that.  Which I might do, if her condition changes even a little bit for the worse.  

It's about 15 degrees here now and the wind is really blowing.
Supposed to be warmer Monday.  Sure takes the fun out of the outside chores.

DonnaBelle


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## ksalvagno (Jan 7, 2010)

I'm assuming the Sulmet won't do much but at least he is willing to go to Baytril when it doesn't. I would also ask him about Draxxin if the Baytril doesn't work. You will need to give both Baytril and Draxxin more often to the goat than other animals though. They are both longer acting antibiotics.

Like I said, if he seems willing to learn and to help you, then just work with him. If he is new I'm sure he is terrified of doing something wrong and losing his license. Give him some time and let him get used to everything. Like you said, you can always take her to OSU if need be. I wouldn't write this vet off though if he is willing to learn and treat your goats.


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 7, 2010)

Thanks Karen,

You are ever the voice of reason.  

I shall simply "hang in here" and do the best for Annie I can.

I am soooo looking forward to Spring.

None of my critters are out today, not the goats or the chickens, or the dogs.

Everyone is inside their little abodes, since we have a North wind blowing about 25 mi an hour.  Brutal.

I got some straw the other day that was chopped.  It sure makes nice bedding for the goats.  I throw a little Stall dry in every other day, and it is keeping them warm.

Donna


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## cmjust0 (Jan 13, 2010)

Any progress?  Did you ever get Baytril/gentamicin, or did the Sulmet (by some miracle) help?


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 13, 2010)

Hi CM and all,

Just got back from taking the girls out on their "goat walk".  Thank goodness we can get out again.  Weather is warmer. YEah.

We have been dosing Annie with Sulmet now for a week.  No improvment.  I am going to finish the bottle he gave me.  I am not messing with that vet anymore, he just takes money with no results.  

I am going to try to find some Gentamicin, I don't know how to do it though.

She is acting fine, but of course, that could change at any time.

DonnaBelle


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## cmjust0 (Jan 13, 2010)

Is there a goat association in your area?  If so...see if you can figure out who's in it and start dialing.  I think that's probably your best shot at finding the guy who knows that gal who knew that other fella...so on, so forth.

Best I can offer..  Sorry..  

Keep us posted.


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks CM, for your kind interest in my Annie.

I am going to make some of those calls you suggested.  I am very dedicated to these goats, so I intend to keep after the situation.

Thanks for your suggestions and imput.

DonnaBelle


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## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 13, 2010)

someone earlier referenced Draxxin.  One of our does had a very serious trachial infection this fall and Draxxin was what did the trick finally to get rid of it.  

Just thought I'd throw that out there.


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## RoseRanch (Jan 18, 2010)

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> Yesterday the vet informed me even though Gentamicin was recommended for the type of pneumonia Annie has, he wouldn't give it to her because it is prohibited by the FDA for meat/dairy animals because they don't know a safe withdrawn period of time.  Her diagnosis is:
> 
> Large # of potential pathogen- PSEUDOMONAS AERUGINOSA.
> 
> ...


Im just learning about goats...what were the symptoms she had?  I lost one goat during the ice storm who really did not show any signs of a problem. Im not sure why she died. All of the others seem to be ok.


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