# Free choice minerals.



## kstaven (Sep 12, 2011)

Had something happen I have never encountered. Just changed over to a better blend and what should have been at least a 3 week supply was consumed in 4 days.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Sep 12, 2011)

Well, my guess would be they REALLY wanted something that was in the new blend that wasn't in the old.   My guys will decimate a new mineral when it arrives and then back off after about a week.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 12, 2011)

OUr feedmill changed brands last year, and The label looked good so we have been purchasing it. they eat it like crazy.  One of the employees told me, some of the cattle people aren't happy with it, because the cattle are consuming so much of it that they can't keep it out and can't afford to keep buying it, so their sales have dropped, since they switched brands. Well, for example, I just purchased a 25lb bag 8 days ago and it is well over half gone. I am feeding around 30goats, but that is still a lot of minerals to keep buying at $18 a bag. Now a good part of my goats are still only on pasture, so their mineral reguirements are higher than animals that are getting daily grain.


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## Hillsvale (Sep 12, 2011)

I do find when you put out something new for sheep and goats that its a novelty and it disappears but since my goats and sheep share housing I leave the shee minerals free choice and mix the goats in with their evening grain.... now I only have 4 so it might not be so easy with 30! I also had friends pick up the minerals when they were in the states because we couldn't get them here so I need to be careful they don't disappear though I am told someone local will blend them so we shall see.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 12, 2011)

I have two ways for giving free choice minerals to my herd:

(1) Blocks- White Salt & the red mineral block(we don't do Billy Blocks) - the smaller blocks and wall mounted at wither height(makes it easier for kids to lick & nibble them too).

(2) Loose mineral - Manna Pro(I believe), fed in one side of a wall mounted mineral feeding dish (baking soda goes in the other side)

My goats eat only as much as they think they need. Sometimes they will nibble off a good square inch of the block, other times they take a couple mouth-fulls of the loose mineral. Course, there are also periods of time where they don't go to either.


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## doxiemoxie (Sep 12, 2011)

Do I dare ask what this new brand of mineral was?


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## kstaven (Sep 12, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> OUr feedmill changed brands last year, and The label looked good so we have been purchasing it. they eat it like crazy.  One of the employees told me, some of the cattle people aren't happy with it, because the cattle are consuming so much of it that they can't keep it out and can't afford to keep buying it, so their sales have dropped, since they switched brands. Well, for example, I just purchased a 25lb bag 8 days ago and it is well over half gone. I am feeding around 30goats, but that is still a lot of minerals to keep buying at $18 a bag. Now a good part of my goats are still only on pasture, so their mineral reguirements are higher than animals that are getting daily grain.


We are at $55.00 for 50lb. Glad I tried this on one group only. (20 goats)

Dairy choice brand manufactured in BC.

Will not use purina as my goats always came up deficient on the blood work.


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## Hillsvale (Sep 12, 2011)

I bought Manna goat mineral, it was about 12. US for an 8 pound bag.


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## kstaven (Sep 12, 2011)

Going to pick pout a few does and have some blood work done to see where their levels are.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 13, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


after researching cargil Right Now products I went to the dealer in town that the cArgil rep. told me to go to. The owner of that feed store said they could order me the Right Now, but that they had Purina goat in the store and I qouate," It is the same stuff." Why not just use that. Really, If you are going to own a feed store, shouldn't you know something about feed.  I could tell he looked frustrated when I explained it was no way the same. I never did get him to order it for me. He does sell those big 40lb tubs of protein supplements for goats, wE tried one of those this summer and we were pretty happy with it. Took 20 does around 6 weeks to finish it all. It was $45.   

We have several feed stores in our area, so there is really no shortage of brands, but I try to support one as much as possible, because of their outstanding support to 4H members and their fair projects. They also have a really good staff at their store that are very helpful and friendly.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 13, 2011)

G'day ,just out of interest what mineral deficiency's are you trying to correct with your mixes?Your soils can sometimes be the problem .ie: to acid or to alkaline.Different soils "tie up"certain minerals......To give you an example our acid soils mean that we have calcium magnesium problems,plus copper and trace elements......In cases where the stock are consuming large amounts it could be that the mix only contains a very small amount of the one they require.We find that periods of low feed quality and the losses that occur during lambing result in a higher than normal take-up.  ...just a few thoughts on the subject...T.O.R..................


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 13, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day ,just out of interest what mineral deficiency's are you trying to correct with your mixes?Your soils can sometimes be the problem .ie: to acid or to alkaline.Different soils "tie up"certain minerals......To give you an example our acid soils mean that we have calcium magnesium problems,plus copper and trace elements......In cases where the stock are consuming large amounts it could be that the mix only contains a very small amount of the one they require.We find that periods of low feed quality and the losses that occur during lambing result in a higher than normal take-up.  ...just a few thoughts on the subject...T.O.R..................


Nice to see you posting again T.O.R.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 13, 2011)

We've had the same experience in the past.  When we upgraded to a better quality mineral the goats went crazy.  As far as I'm concerned the cheap all-stock type minerals are totally worthless for our herd.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 13, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> We've had the same experience in the past.  When we upgraded to a better quality mineral the goats went crazy.  As far as I'm concerned the cheap all-stock type minerals are totally worthless for our herd.


All stock minerals are typically low in copper too... which means having to give copper boluses more often.  One of the reasons why we make sure that what we give our goats says Goat, instead of multi species or sheep & goat or all stock.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 13, 2011)

G'day,thank you Livinwright farm,I must say that it never ceases to amaze me that so many of the people on the forum "do not" mix there own minerals for their stock...Most of you with more than a "backyard" would have done a soil test,if you exclude P & N it will tell you what you are short of and you can then supplement only whats required,its the same with your "feeds"there is info out there which tells you what ratios of minerals occur in specific feeds and then you can "balance " your feed mix to compensate for short comings in one or other of the ingredients..............If you are feeding high ratios of Alfalfa you will certainly have Iodine issues........On the subject of Copper we pay $18 a kg,but as it is only a small % of the total it works out OK(EG. 3kg of copper lasted about 6 weeks in the mix for nearly 400 sheep ,200 of which were pregnant ewe's).....I do recall looking at the chemical analysis of one of your commercial pre-mixes and almost every ingredient was synthetic ..............This is a very interesting thread on the subject...................T.O.R......................


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## Ms. Research (Sep 13, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day,thank you Livinwright farm,I must say that it never ceases to amaze me that so many of the people on the forum "do not" mix there own minerals for their stock...Most of you with more than a "backyard" would have done a soil test,if you exclude P & N it will tell you what you are short of and you can then supplement only whats required,its the same with your "feeds"there is info out there which tells you what ratios of minerals occur in specific feeds and then you can "balance " your feed mix to compensate for short comings in one or other of the ingredients..............If you are feeding high ratios of Alfalfa you will certainly have Iodine issues........On the subject of Copper we pay $18 a kg,but as it is only a small % of the total it works out OK(EG. 3kg of copper lasted about 6 weeks in the mix for nearly 400 sheep ,200 of which were pregnant ewe's).....I do recall looking at the chemical analysis of one of your commercial pre-mixes and almost every ingredient was synthetic ..............This is a very interesting thread on the subject...................T.O.R......................


Welcome back I see.  I popped up here while you were gone.  As someone who will be getting involved with livestock, I am very curious about how to maintain these animals.   Our plan for our future farm is to have a few goats and sheep, along with other animals.  It's only my DH and myself, so there won't be a huge amount of animals.  I've been reading Livingwright's threads since she came back, and my view of these postings are that goats and sheep need different minerals which could undermine each other fed together.  If mixing my own, which BTW I feel I should learn, would it than be a better feeding situation for both?   I know how to read soil samples along with water samples.  I'm well aware of the deficiencies., natural and man-made that could affect livestock that graze.  

I too think this is an interesting thread on the subject and will be interested in learning more.  

Thank you Livinwright for this thread.   To Old Ram-Australia, Welcome from New Jersey.


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 13, 2011)

Ms. Research said:
			
		

> Thank you Livinwright for this thread.   To Old Ram-Australia, Welcome from New Jersey.


Thank kstaven  they're the one who started it 



			
				Ms. Research said:
			
		

> that goats and sheep need different minerals which could undermine each other fed together


The main issue if feeding goats & sheep communally is: Copper.  Enough copper for a goat, will kill a sheep. Little enough to zero copper for the sheep will lead to grave deficiency in the goat.  On top of this, is the fact that many of the plants that are safe and beneficial for goats are deadly for sheep.  If space allows, it is best to have them in seperate pens/paddocks.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 13, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day,thank you Livinwright farm,I must say that it never ceases to amaze me that so many of the people on the forum "do not" mix there own minerals for their stock...Most of you with more than a "backyard" would have done a soil test,if you exclude P & N it will tell you what you are short of and you can then supplement only whats required,its the same with your "feeds"there is info out there which tells you what ratios of minerals occur in specific feeds and then you can "balance " your feed mix to compensate for short comings in one or other of the ingredients..............If you are feeding high ratios of Alfalfa you will certainly have Iodine issues........On the subject of Copper we pay $18 a kg,but as it is only a small % of the total it works out OK(EG. 3kg of copper lasted about 6 weeks in the mix for nearly 400 sheep ,200 of which were pregnant ewe's).....I do recall looking at the chemical analysis of one of your commercial pre-mixes and almost every ingredient was synthetic ..............This is a very interesting thread on the subject...................T.O.R......................


The biggest problem is cost. The tests aren't too bad but finding someone to make a mineral mix for you that would be less than a ton would be next to impossible. Most mills will only mix large batches. This also includes feeds. Most mills will only make up large batches.


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## kstaven (Sep 13, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day ,just out of interest what mineral deficiency's are you trying to correct with your mixes?Your soils can sometimes be the problem .ie: to acid or to alkaline.Different soils "tie up"certain minerals......To give you an example our acid soils mean that we have calcium magnesium problems,plus copper and trace elements......In cases where the stock are consuming large amounts it could be that the mix only contains a very small amount of the one they require.We find that periods of low feed quality and the losses that occur during lambing result in a higher than normal take-up.  ...just a few thoughts on the subject...T.O.R..................


We are 7 years into reworking the soil here. Copper and selenium are still to the low side. Aluminum is running high through the entire region. Soil PH is very good as is the fibrous matter now. Nice to see some one else posting on soil condition. I always request a copy of soil tests from our hay suppliers.

Any suggestions on binding aluminum?


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 14, 2011)

G,day, My interest in this thread "grows" by the minute.....Kstaven:.My understanding of high soluble Al is associated with low PH levels,if your low PH is confined to the top 6ins of your soil profile you may be able to correct it with the application of lime.(our Granite based soils run from 4.5/5.5 and the acidity runs down to bedrock,we could apply lime for 100 yrs and still not have any impact).......We actually feed Ca in our mineral mix in the form of CaMg(C03)2,the other thing we do is to "not" fight our acid soil(our sheep operation is "grass based",we feed "no anything",no N or P is spread ,no mech soil disturbance and all weed control is herb-aside based using a backpack(no blanket spraying and only narrow spectrum chemicals are used).....Our whole pasture operation is based on native grasses and "naturalized exotics"(as a result of the drought anything that survived is acceptable)...... .We use only "natural occurring minerals" delivered down the throat and it leaves the other end in a state that plants can absorb and utilize immediately..This method of delivery means that the animals system is balanced by supplying shortfalls in the acid soils and therefor the grasses are also defecient.....The decision to take the mix is entirely up to the sheep,we have used the same thing on cattle ,goats as well as the sheep over many years...........We have been on this current property for over 12 years now,have survived the biggest drought in 100 yrs  and the land is still in better shape than when we purchased it....I have just started to make our own compost for a paddock trial , but it the same as we have used in our vege gardens for "years".We are aiming for the  max number of perennial species,along with any clovers we can encourage.(to protect the "crowns" we "do not" slash any dry matter).











The 1st pic is taken up the slope and the 2nd is down the slope,the key is the small tree with the "black trunk".

I must confess that I am a little confused by your commercial "mineral mixes",are they pre-mixes or protein supplements with minerals added?..Perhaps some of you could "scan" in the typical analysis and /or the ingredients in % breakdown of your current mix (or you can PM the details if you prefer and I will comment further later).

IMO the salt /mineral blocks sold commercially are just salt and the ingredient that the stock needs is in such small quantity's,that the stock have to consume a vast amount to try and satisfy the mineral need...We use salt in our mix ,but by volume it only represents 3 parts in a 13 & 1/2 part mix.. We purchase the ingredients separably and measure with a coffee cup and mix it in a bucket,it is placed in old "drench drums"(20 lt) with a face "cut out" and hung on the fence near a water point. I have observed that lambs will take the mix after about 4 weeks of age(when they start grazing the pasture).

I understand that many of you live in "harsh" winter climates and have to hand feed ,due to the lack of available pasture,anyway I look forward to your reactions to this post..............................T.O.R.......................................


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 14, 2011)

OUr mineral mix is all mineral, no protein, Although there is a protein tub available. The main mineral we purchase is an all mineral product that pours out of the bag. The protein tub is solid and the goat has to chew and lick it out. 

http://sweetlix.com/products/C14A34/meat-maker-products.aspx?gclid=CMrV58HUnKsCFcPe4AodyzCojQ
This is the label for Sweetlix mineral  meat Maker 16:8: 

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS:

Calcium, Min   14.00% 
Calcium, Max   16.80% 
Phosphorus, Min   8.00% 
Salt, Min   10.00% 
Salt, Max   12.00% 
Magnesium, Min   1.50% 
Potassium, Min   1.50% 
Cobalt, Min   240 ppm 
Copper, Min   1,750 ppm 
Copper, Max   1,810 ppm 
Iodine, Min   450 ppm 
Manganese, Min   1.25% 
Selenium, Min   50 ppm 
Zinc, Min   1.25% 
Vitamin A, Min   300,000 IU/lb 
Vitamin D-3, Min   30,000 IU/lb 
Vitamin E, Min   400 IU/lb 

 INGREDIENT STATEMENT:

Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Molasses Products, Roughage Products, Processed Grain By-Products, Magnesium Oxide, Potassium Chloride, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Mineral Oil, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Sulfate, Sodium Molybdate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Red Iron Oxide and Artificial Flavoring.

For additional information, please contact your Sweetlix representative


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 14, 2011)

Nutrient Guarantees
Calcium, Min 14.5% 
ultralyx meat maker: 16:8


http://www.ultralyx.com/products/Goats/f5_loose-minerals.aspx

Calcium, Max 17.4% 
Phosphorus, Min 8.0% 
Salt, Min 15.0% 
Salt, Max 17.0% 
Magnesium, Min 2.0% 
Copper, Min 1,500 ppm 
Copper, Max 1,700 ppm 
Manganese, Min 4,000 ppm 
Selenium, Min 50 ppm 
Zinc, Min 4,000 ppm 
Vitamin A, Min 300,000 IU/lb 
Vitamin D-3, Min 75,000 IU/lb 
Vitamin E, Min 400 IU/lb 
Product Ingredients
Monocalcium Phosphate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Magnesium Oxide, Processed Grain By-Products, Molasses Products, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Chloride, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement and Red Iron Oxide.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 14, 2011)

We are looking into having a ton of feed made this year for us during kidding season for, but a ton of feed is a lot for us to store, and we don't use enough of it in the summer months to use it up before it spoils. 

How far ahead do you make your feed?  How long do you find your feed keeps in the  warm weather. 

We graze in virginia from from April to beginning of November,  on a good year, on a bad year we have less graze time. depends on the amount of rain. the last 4 or 5 years here in virginia it has been fairly dry. 

Ofcourse the United states varies so much between regions, but we have had a pretty good pasture season this year. 

We have never ran a soil test. been wanting to and have talked about it for a few years , never get it done. We really need to put lime on our fields.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 14, 2011)

G'day ,my ,that was quick!......My first reaction is that the mineral component of the mix is less than 50% in both the products shown.Both have sugars and grain or grain by-products in the ingredient list,which although "not stated" appear to make up about 50% of the volume...I suspect that the sugars could "ferment" the grain portion in warmer weather........Have you considered using "rodent proof" containers and mixing a grain /chaff menu for the goats?.......You can buy the grains/chaff individually,your local Ag guy should be able to give you a nutrient  breakdown of the different grains easy enough...........As I said we do not hand feed at all,all they get is the available pasture on a year round basis(this does take considerable planning),what we make up is just minerals on a as needed basis,even though it will sometimes get wet ,it does not go off and when it dries out I just add some fresh and away we go.......I would also question the "need" to feed Phosphorus to livestock,P like N "grows grass".....Is it practicable for you to have "excess pasture" baled into hay?........Do you have any idea what your pasture is comprised of?......What is the need to Lime based on?(IE: local conditions/everyone else does?)
Have you considered feeding Kelp meal(Seaweed meal down here) in a container ad lib to cover  a lot of the mineral requirements as well as trace elements?

As I said before this thread is such a "great topic".....................T.O.R..................................


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## Goatherd (Sep 14, 2011)

My goats are not big fans of loose minerals, but they do have it available to them at all times.  As TOR mentioned, I have started feeding kelp meal on a regular basis to compensate for anything they may be lacking in their nutritional needs.  Fortunately, they are very receptive to the kelp meal.  It is rather pricey, but it does go a long way as it is dense with a fine texture.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 14, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day ,my ,that was quick!......My first reaction is that the mineral component of the mix is less than 50% in both the products shown.Both have sugars and grain or grain by-products in the ingredient list,which although "not stated" appear to make up about 50% of the volume...I suspect that the sugars could "ferment" the grain portion in warmer weather........Have you considered using "rodent proof" containers and mixing a grain /chaff menu for the goats?.......You can buy the grains/chaff individually,your local Ag guy should be able to give you a nutrient  breakdown of the different grains easy enough...........As I said we do not hand feed at all,all they get is the available pasture on a year round basis(this does take considerable planning),what we make up is just minerals on a as needed basis,even though it will sometimes get wet ,it does not go off and when it dries out I just add some fresh and away we go.......I would also question the "need" to feed Phosphorus to livestock,P like N "grows grass".....Is it practicable for you to have "excess pasture" baled into hay?........Do you have any idea what your pasture is comprised of?......What is the need to Lime based on?(IE: local conditions/everyone else does?)
> Have you considered feeding Kelp meal(Seaweed meal down here) in a container ad lib to cover  a lot of the mineral requirements as well as trace elements?
> 
> As I said before this thread is such a "great topic".....................T.O.R..................................


Hmmm: haven't had problems with the loose minerals fermenting in the summer, We keep it out all the time, although they normally eat up what I put out with in  a couple of weeks. It can get wet, occasionally does, and just dries out, although the feeder we are using is designed to help keep out most of the rain. 
and I have no idea what you are referring to when you say Grain/chaff menu. The products I have listed above are only loose salt like minerals, not a grain or pellet type thing. What is Chaff???   YOu will have to explain in more simple terms for my simple brain. 



I know the most common thing people around us have do to their soil is add/spread lime on it. I have no idea what our soil is comprised of, sorry. 
no we haven't looked into kelp. Have never seen it for sale, perhaps it is.  I suspect it is very very expensive.


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## Hickoryneck (Sep 14, 2011)

Hi I think this is a great topic 

Most herdsmen here in America do not have the know how or resources you do in other countries we have become used to just buying a 50lb bag of premixed goat feed storing it in a trash can and then repeat once gone most of the herds here are hobby sized 2 - 20 head and a ton of feed is to hard to deal with and the average hobby farmer has no clue what to mix if they wanted to. It's sad but with some research and help we can gain the knowledge to do better. 

I do mix my own feeds but do not add minerals all the minerals are offered free choice I have copper, di-calcium, salt, dolomite and a loose mineral mix all are offered separate from each other so the goats can choose what they need. 

I would love to get my hand on some kelp but not sure where to look any suggestions? 

I am going to try and do soil test this fall


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## Goatherd (Sep 14, 2011)

> would love to get my hand on some kelp but not sure where to look any suggestions?


I go to an independent feed store.  It's small, but he carries a ton of stuff!  And what he doesn't carry, I just ask and most times he says "sure, I can get that for you."

I asked about kelp meal after I looked on line for it.  Not only do you have the cost of the product, but then you have to add shipping.  Then it really becomes unaffordable.

To give you an idea of what I paid, it's roughly $1 per pound.  A 50# bag was just shy of $50 by a few cents.  If a cloud can have a silver lining, I guess I'm grateful not to have to pay shipping!


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## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day ,my ,that was quick!......My first reaction is that the mineral component of the mix is less than 50% in both the products shown.Both have sugars and grain or grain by-products in the ingredient list,which although "not stated" appear to make up about 50% of the volume...I suspect that the sugars could "ferment" the grain portion in warmer weather........Have you considered using "rodent proof" containers and mixing a grain /chaff menu for the goats?.......You can buy the grains/chaff individually,your local Ag guy should be able to give you a nutrient  breakdown of the different grains easy enough...........As I said we do not hand feed at all,all they get is the available pasture on a year round basis(this does take considerable planning),what we make up is just minerals on a as needed basis,even though it will sometimes get wet ,it does not go off and when it dries out I just add some fresh and away we go.......I would also question the "need" to feed Phosphorus to livestock,P like N "grows grass".....Is it practicable for you to have "excess pasture" baled into hay?........Do you have any idea what your pasture is comprised of?......What is the need to Lime based on?(IE: local conditions/everyone else does?)
> Have you considered feeding Kelp meal(Seaweed meal down here) in a container ad lib to cover  a lot of the mineral requirements as well as trace elements?
> 
> As I said before this thread is such a "great topic".....................T.O.R..................................


One thing you have to realize is that over the past decades soil and the management of forage/grazing has been pushed to the side in favor of supplemental feeding. AKA: Deal with the symptoms rather than the problem. Feed suppliers don't make money off of teaching one to manage the land when dealing with animals. Quick fixes in many cases win out over long tern viability. One of the many reasons I hang out on this forum rather than some others is because people here think rather than blindly swallow everything some sectors try to feed us.


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## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G,day, My interest in this thread "grows" by the minute.....Kstaven:.My understanding of high soluble Al is associated with low PH levels,if your low PH is confined to the top 6ins of your soil profile you may be able to correct it with the application of lime.(our Granite based soils run from 4.5/5.5 and the acidity runs down to bedrock,we could apply lime for 100 yrs and still not have any impact).......


In a test plot we tried lime and the PH levels which we had a handle on altered severely. I am assuming the PH reaction to lime was from a reaction with the heavy amount of Ponderosa Pine needles.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 15, 2011)

G'day kastaven,does your forest areas provide "woodland grazing"?Can you indicate the purpose of your Lime trial?If your pine forest has a degree of age the "needle drop" will be contributing to your acid soil problems,are you aware of any grass species that can "flourish"under the heavy shade produced by the pines?................We learned during the drought that if we were to continue "sheep farming" and make a" profit" we had to address the long term viability of our pastures.There is a saying I once heard and it was ,"Before you can farm livestock,you must first be a successful Grass Farmer",so soil health , biodiversity and overall stock health were made priority's...
    In an earlier post I mentioned that we use "narrow spectrum herb aside's",at first glance that may seem at "odd's"with a more natural approach to livestock production.We found through trial and error that the weed we were trying to "outwit"was a difficult one indeed(Serrated Tussock),its "highly invasive",has no value as stock feed (in fact stock will "starve" to death because of it's almost no level of nutrition).The seed is carried on the wind and seems capable of "germinating" on a "good dew",and if control is attempted by "chipping" the only result is the creation of a "perfect seed bed",it will germinate in the thickest pasture and "outperforms " any grass we have on our place.The seed lying on the ground is viable for 25 yrs.

If you look up the typical analysis of Seaweed Meal try Vitagran
www.multicrop.com.au/HAvitagran.htm - Cached.I don't imagine they export to the US,but you should be able to get something comparable,this stuff cost us $130.00 per 20kg and we use 40kg per year,but it is "so" worth it,Its totally natural and the minerals,work naturally to balance the livestock's systems(it's no silver bullet )over time,add to this dolomite,a course salt in granular form(we use common pool salt)and some yellow Sulphur,plus a small amount of Copper Sulphate(Bluestone)...I can post the ratio's if the forum is interested and there you have it.

At that this time I would like to "commend" kstaven for starting this thread,regards .T.O.R......................


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## kstaven (Sep 16, 2011)

We have very good diverse woodland grazing here. Once the goats thinned the oregon grape and hazel, native grasses take over so the need to reseed heavily is really not necessary. I also had the opportunity to cut a section of native grasslands at a time when seeds where plentiful. So I tend to use this to back up any thin spots.

The lime came into play because of a suggestion concerning dealing with aluminum. It was a real step backwards for us. Contrary to popular schools of thought, our fall soil tests had higher acid levels not lower. The aluminum is in the surface layers and not deep here.


Seaweed meal is available here.

I have copper sulfate here and use it. For some strange reason people around here have the impression that copper sulfate, or blue stone as you refer to it, is toxic to goats. 

I had to laugh when you mentioned granite. Dig down 5 meters (15.5 feet) here and you hit solid granite.

Besides soil quality I am surprised you didn't mention well water testing to see what is there: What you may be depositing on the surface and what your plants are taking up.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 16, 2011)

G'day kstaven,Those native grasses are a "god send" aren't they,are your pines  a result of a plantation planting?That result of the lime trial is a real puzzle.Was the trial in a treed area?What was the PH at the beginning and what rate did you apply the Lime?It could be that it leached out or the plants just took it up.Did you just do 1 strip or did you do several at varying rates?

The copper is quite poisonous and should only be a small% in a complete mix IMO.The Seaweed Meal contains Copper in a safe state and over time will correct a minor imbalance,it depends how deficient the soils and feeds are.Its the same with Iodine and Selenium.We don't have water wells ,all our water storage is in what you call "ponds" and is a result of surface runoff.We are lucky in that all our rain falls through "clean air" as we do not have any "heavy industry" nearby to create "acid rain".All of our "house water "is run-off from the house roof and stored in tanks next to the house.We also use no irrigation on our pastures.







 2X7000 gals

Thanks for the OK to address the other questions raised earlier.

Q & A:Hickoryneck.I would caution you about not mixing the Copper in with other stuff at very low ratio's,should you get "new" stock severely deficient they could take on an excessive amount and die as a result.If you can get the Seaweed Meal you will find the results  are really good,the Trace Elements on there own in a natural state are worth the expense.(ask kstaven where he gets his?).The other thing you could add is some Sulfur (the yellow one they use in gardens).You can add this to the mix or if you have "body lice issues"rub some into their coats along the "top-line".

20 Kidsonahill:In both the min mixes you posted they had sugars and grain or grain by-products,when you asked if ours "went off" i thought it was a problem with what you were using.......Chaff,I'm sure they would use it over there ,but may call it something else.Its Hay which is put through a "shredder" and chopped into lengths of about 1/4 inch sections ,horse people use heaps of Alfalfa in this form....Its not difficult to make up your own grain ration from individual ingredients.You just have to consider what you need to address,if you need to lift the protein of the mix I would include Lupins(cracked),if you need to lift energy (say in winter dried Molasses in much easier to handle that the wet type),rolled Barley and a small amount of Maize is good (but not to excess ,because it can turn the internal body fat quite "yellow",a big turnoff with many "ethnic buyers")rolled Oats can also be included as they are quite "fatty".Try to get your local AG Dept guy to get you some info on grain feeding.If you can get Chaff,try it 50/50 Alfalfa/Oaten or Wheaten.It is advisable to use by volume 4parts the chaff to 1part grain mix.......I assume you feed hay,Goats are notorious "wasters" of expensive hay.........Feed merchants tend to Chaff lower grade Hay,when we were milking our Dairy herd we brought a "garden shredder"and used to buy the "best " quality Alfalfa hay(horse grade) and Chaff it ourselves.The shredder soon paid for itself with the reduced amount of wastage.(there is nothing wrong with your brain ,its just that our 2 country's use different terms to describe the same thing)..The nature of your soil has a large bearing on what grasses you can grow,its worthwhile learning as much as you can about your biggest asset.Good quality grass is the "cheapest and healthiest "feed you can give to your stock.

Goatherd:The rate of consumption is a good indication of the level of need ,our sheep have been getting it for over 20yrs and we still have periods of "higher" than average take-up,due to the feed conditions at any given time.

Well I think that may have answered all the questions so far ,but if you need additional info or further explanation on any point ,please post and ask,regards T.O.R...................................

                                           Knowledge only increases in "value" ,when it is shared.........T.O.R.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 16, 2011)

We have talked about a hay shredder, because small square bales are pricey and being able to buy large round bales and feed it into a shredder would help us beable to feed it. OUr hay feeders are very efficient and are prettty good about not wasting hay.  We only can handle the 45-55lb bales of hay with our set-up and equipment that we own. Being able to shred a big round bale in one location and bucket it to the different feeders and pens would be helpful. 

We are looking into having the feed mill make us a ration this year for our nursing does, since most the premixed feeds in our area are only a 2.5% fat content, and we would like to get closer to a 4.5% fat, with around 15% protein. But as far as purchasing all the ingredience seperate and having to store it and mix it. I just don't feel we are a big enough operation to deal with all of that. Plus we are a little on the lazy side. 

As far as the discussion of the Feed" going off" or going bad. I beleive we were discussing two different types of feed. In one post(discussion we were talking about loose salts(minerals). Those don't go bad very easily. In another discussion I was discussing pelleted feed(grains). Those do go "off" or bad in warm weather(alot of grain in those).  We only buy 2 weeks of pelleted feed at a time. It would be a 16% protein with 2.5% fat and near 16% fiber.

OH, and yes, that is what we also refer to as Chaff hay.  Just was wanting to make sure we were talking about the same thing. I have read and heard of some farms feeding in the manner that you are reffering to using chaff hay and grains. I have always thought that it sounds like a good way to use the feed efficiently, especially the hay.


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 16, 2011)

Hi,
Just wanted to chime in about minerals.....I read about several brands and wanted to try Sweetlix Caprine Magnum Milk but the feed stores around here all groan when they see me coming....I always ask for products they don't carry and I don't want the stuff they say is what every one else is using. Everyone else wants the cheapest stuff and apparently everyone in our area has meat goats. We do live in a poor area and there are a lot of milk cows but I guess not too many milk goats. I try to explain that I want dairy products for my dairy goats and they still try to sell me the protein blocks instead of the loose minerals I ask for. When I contacted sweetlix by email they just told me that to buy from them I would need to buy it by the ton. Not so helpful for just a few goats...When I went to pick up my new nigerian doeling many hours north of us, her owner had the minerals I wanted so I ran to the local feed store and bought 2 bags. We are almost halfway through one bag already and we've only had it about 2 1/2 weeks! I have one Nubian and 5 Nigerians and that seems like alot to me. But I'm glad they like it so much. 
P.S. it has 7.50-9.00 calcium, less than the other post with a sweetlix mineral. this says that it is a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus mineral designed to be fed to dairy goats on a legume diet.  Any thoughts?
Kat


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 16, 2011)

ragdollcatlady said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Just wanted to chime in about minerals.....I read about several brands and wanted to try Sweetlix Caprine Magnum Milk but the feed stores around here all groan when they see me coming....I always ask for products they don't carry and I don't want the stuff they say is what every one else is using. Everyone else wants the cheapest stuff and apparently everyone in our area has meat goats. We do live in a poor area and there are a lot of milk cows but I guess not too many milk goats. I try to explain that I want dairy products for my dairy goats and they still try to sell me the protein blocks instead of the loose minerals I ask for. When I contacted sweetlix by email they just told me that to buy from them I would need to buy it by the ton. Not so helpful for just a few goats...When I went to pick up my new nigerian doeling many hours north of us, her owner had the minerals I wanted so I ran to the local feed store and bought 2 bags. We are almost halfway through one bag already and we've only had it about 2 1/2 weeks! I have one Nubian and 5 Nigerians and that seems like alot to me. But I'm glad they like it so much.
> P.S. it has 7.50-9.00 calcium, less than the other post with a sweetlix mineral. this says that it is a 1:1 calcium to phosphorus mineral designed to be fed to dairy goats on a legume diet.  Any thoughts?
> Kat


When you buy the minerals, they should have a 2:1 for any of your bucks or whethers.  Sweetlix Meatmaker 16:8 is the one that has the 2 to 1 ratio.  You will be okay feeding it to does, especially if they are getting any kind of alfalfa.  

They can eat way more than you would ever imagine.  I am feeding up to 20 in a field and if I leave it run out, or depending on the time of year, they will go through a 25lb bag in a couple of weeks easilyl.  Doesn't surprise me at all that yours ate that much. They will probably slow down on consumption at some point. 

There are some other pretty good brands out there:

Cargill right now Onyx for cattle
ultralyx for goats 
TSC sells a brand of loose minerals


Did you ask the sweetlix company where the closest dealer is to you?  Another words what is the closest feed store to you that is contracted to sell their brand.


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## DonnaBelle (Sep 16, 2011)

I too have been in contact with Sweetlix. I sent them an email and they answered me very quickly with the name of the feed store in my area that has contacts with distributors for Sweetlix.  My feed store ordered it for me yesterday which means I'll have it next week sometime.

DonnaBelle


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 16, 2011)

Thanks for the response, I'll be separating the boys in a few days so I'll see about getting them the 2:1 instead. I did ask for the nearest retailer, but there weren't any in the towns or cities near me. 
Kat


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 16, 2011)

I just thought of another question....I believe the boys shouldn't be on alfalfa right? I have one buckling and 2 wethers. What would be the best hay for them? Orchard mix, Barley, and Burmuda are the kinds that my main feed store sells on a regular basis.


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## kstaven (Sep 16, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day kstaven,Those native grasses are a "god send" aren't they,are your pines  a result of a plantation planting?That result of the lime trial is a real puzzle.Was the trial in a treed area?What was the PH at the beginning and what rate did you apply the Lime?It could be that it leached out or the plants just took it up.Did you just do 1 strip or did you do several at varying rates?
> 
> The copper is quite poisonous and should only be a small% in a complete mix IMO.The Seaweed Meal contains Copper in a safe state and over time will correct a minor imbalance,it depends how deficient the soils and feeds are.Its the same with Iodine and Selenium.We don't have water wells ,all our water storage is in what you call "ponds" and is a result of surface runoff.We are lucky in that all our rain falls through "clean air" as we do not have any "heavy industry" nearby to create "acid rain".All of our "house water "is run-off from the house roof and stored in tanks next to the house.We also use no irrigation on our pastures.


The pines are not plantation planting, but a native species that occurs naturally in this region. The lime issue threw us for a loop also and the university lab is still scratching their head. I wonder if the native berry bushes didn't take part of it up?  

The area tested had been heavily treed with a good degree of standing dead wood. It was dieing off and thus thinned to allow for new younger growth to have a fighting chance.

Copper, selenium and iodine are all moderately low here. But my understanding has been that without realizing a rise in PH #'s the augmentation of what we are low on is highly ineffective. I will dig up our last test results and post them so you see what we are dealing with.

As to hay used, our suppliers provide full copies of their soil testing results and that of the hay. So on both sides of the equation we know what we are dealing with. Personally I will not deal with a supplier that will not provide this. I may end up paying a little more for this but in the long run it is far cheaper than dealing with the consequences of cheap feeds.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 16, 2011)

ragdollcatlady said:
			
		

> I just thought of another question....I believe the boys shouldn't be on alfalfa right? I have one buckling and 2 wethers. What would be the best hay for them? Orchard mix, Barley, and Burmuda are the kinds that my main feed store sells on a regular basis.


As far as alfalfa, it depends who you ask, but a good middle ground is a little alfalfa but mostly grass mix hay.   But if your minerals are low on calcium  some alfalfa hay will help bring that up, since alfalfa is high in calcium.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Sep 18, 2011)

G'day kstaven,if your bedrock is Granite ,are your soils decomposed Granite based?...those results will be worth a look....What was the time frame between the pre test and the post test?...........What was the effect on the grasses on the test site (did you take pic's before and after?)....How long have you been feeding Seaweed meal?...What persuaded you to start using it?.......Did you by chance do "bloods" before you started using it?

Today I came across a quote "If you always do, what you've always done ,you will always get, what you've always got.".......To me its like trying to move forward,while looking over your shoulder.

I am interested in what you all feed besides grass and those loose minerals.Do you have a summer grain  mix and a winter grain mix?For those of you in the" big snow"areas,how do you address the added energy and protein needs due to the "cold"?

Because we are in an area of only periodic light snow falls and only have available pasture for the stock,its the uptake of "our" mineral mix which is "our" guide to the feed conditions prevailing at any given time.

Well I think I may have "posed" enough questions for tonight,so till next time ,regards from .T.O.R..................

PS. someone wanted to lift the "fat" ratio,how about "crushed oats" added to the diet?


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## Ms. Research (Sep 18, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> G'day kstaven,if your bedrock is Granite ,are your soils decomposed Granite based?...those results will be worth a look....What was the time frame between the pre test and the post test?...........What was the effect on the grasses on the test site (did you take pic's before and after?)....How long have you been feeding Seaweed meal?...What persuaded you to start using it?.......Did you by chance do "bloods" before you started using it?
> 
> *Today I came across a quote "If you always do, what you've always done ,you will always get, what you've always got.".......To me its like trying to move forward,while looking over your shoulder.*
> 
> ...


Here in New Jersey the quote goes something like this:  When do you know you are dealing with an idiot, they do the same thing over and over again, getting the same results and STILL don't understand.   Got lots of elected and appointed officials in that catagory.  Now you know why New Jersey is the Laughing Stock of the Nation.


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## elevan (Sep 18, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> *I am interested in what you all feed* besides grass and those loose minerals.Do you have a summer grain  mix and a winter grain mix?For those of you in the" big snow"areas,how do you address the added energy and protein needs due to the "cold"?
> 
> Because we are in an area of only periodic light snow falls and only have available pasture for the stock,its the uptake of "our" mineral mix which is "our" guide to the feed conditions prevailing at any given time.
> 
> ...


T.O.R. - I think you'll find the Goat Feeding Discussion Thread interesting and will help you understand the diversity that we have in how we feed here in the U.S.  The link is in my signature.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 18, 2011)

Are free choice minerals safe?? It says on the mineral bag to not let them have more than 1/4 ounce a day.


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## freemotion (Sep 18, 2011)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> Are free choice minerals safe?? It says on the mineral bag to not let them have more than 1/4 ounce a day.


Yes, goats will self-regulate.  They'll be fine.


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