# very timid LGD



## treeclimber233 (Jun 4, 2011)

I have a Great Pyrs for a guardian dog. He is 6 months old and very friendly to me and the goats.  He seems a bit timid around my husband and really terrified of other people that go to the barn.  Is this a bad thing or something he will grow out of?  I had some people come over to see him the other day and when we went into the pen he (the puppy) ran to the other end of the pen and tried to climb over the 6-7 foot fence.  He was so scared he would not even come to me.  When he finally went into the stall and I could catch him I could not get him to come out.  I want to get him neutered soon but I am wondering if I should wait.  Will  testosterone make him "braver".


----------



## helmstead (Jun 4, 2011)

I would have him neutered ASAP.  Testosterone can actually turn the fear into fearful aggressive, and he can start fear biting...rather than just running away.

I would be tempted to rehome him and find a more calm animal as your LGD.  That anxiety can manifest into other issues that might make him less suitable for his job.


----------



## elevan (Jun 4, 2011)

I have no experience in LGDs but he doesn't sound like what I would look for even as a pup...I too think I would rehome him and look for a better LGD.  Just because they are the breed doesn't make them a good LGD.

I use a llama as a guard but not all llamas are fit for the task.


----------



## Roll farms (Jun 5, 2011)

I have raised 2 Pyrs, and an Anatolian Sheperd, and started our own litter of crosses out and then kept a pup and raised him.  
I probably wouldn't keep that pup.  

Like Kate said, 'fear aggression' can be a scary thing.
And like Emily said, not all Pyrs are cut out to be LGD.

If the wrong person (esp. a kid) were to make him feel cornered, it's hard to say what he might do.

If you can't bring yourself to rehome him, get him fixed ASAP and work on getting him used to people.  

Have someone come over so that he can see them, but have them ignore him....just hang around in his line of sight and 'be there' so that he sees that strangers aren't something to fear.  It will take some repeat lessons / time...you don't want him so friendly that he forgets his job or wants to be w/ people more than the goats, though...

Personally I would worry that he won't be a good guardian, might hurt someone or something if cornered, and would try to find another.


----------



## Goatherd (Jun 5, 2011)

I have a different approach to animals.  Sometimes you just need to play the hand you were dealt. 

The dog is only 6 months old and he hasn't begun to come into his own yet.  He may be a late bloomer.  Yes, he is fearful, and the possibility of fear biting is a potential reality, but that hasn't manifested itself and it may never happen.

He's good with you and your goats.  He's OK with your husband.  Not all dogs welcome strangers with open paws but that doesn't make them "bad" dogs.  Not all dogs are Lassie.  Chances are that if he's doing his job he will have little, direct interaction with other humans other than yourself and your family as he will be in the field with the goats.  At other times, you can control how and when he interacts with strangers or visitors.

Neutering him will certainly help to balance some of his urges and fears and should definitely be done.  Because of his issues it should be done now, even though it may stunt his physical development  because he is a large breed dog.  Again, not a problem as you are looking for a guard dog and not a show dog.

You have a relationship with him and you have the best chance of bringing him beyond this stage by working with him and giving him an opportunity to prove himself.  Unless he goes to a very experienced person who is willing to work with him, he will probably be passed from home to home because of impatience and lack of understanding.  Find someone that can give you hands-on advice and training techniques that will give you what you need to develop your dog.

I realize my opinion is strong, but I have issues with the concept that everything is disposable when it doesn't just go along as we, as humans, think it should.  For me, I feel a moral obligation to make things work when it comes to the animals I have been given.  I realize not everyone can do this or feels this way, but when it does finally happen, the end result is very rewarding and both you and the animal benefit.

Best of luck to you regardless of what you decide.  My intention is not to offend, but to give you something to think about.


----------



## Island Creek Farm (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree 100% w/Goatherd!

We have two GP's, and one is slightly this way, but we got him for the FARM, not for strangers!  We had him neutered early and he is an excellent watch dog, but simply is not as outgoing as our other one...

good luck and give him some time to mature mentally before you decide to rehome, but I'd definately get him neutered now


----------



## carolinagirl (Jun 6, 2011)

he is still a puppy so this may be fixable, at least to a certain degree.  I think he needs to be extensively socialized with people ASAP.  He lacks confidence right now and won't get over that without help.  He needs to not be terrified of everyone or he won't be a good LGD.  A good LGD does not run and hide when he sees a human.  A good LGD needs to be accepting of strangers that their owners are OK with, not an out-of-control danger that has to be locked up when strangers come to the farm.  The fear he has now coupled with testosterone may create a really dangerous and unstable dog.  Take him for walks in parks, wherever people are.  Enroll him in obedience classes.  And yes....get him neutered.  He is young enough to overcome this.   Don't worry that taking him places away from his goats will ruin his guardian attributes.  Many working Anatolians (and other LGD breeds) are also show dog, go to show and then return back home to their herds.  He can bond with you and his herd.   

Here's a good link for you.....  http://www.canine-trainers.com/docs/Building-Confidence-In-A-Shy-Dog.pdf


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 7, 2011)

I strongly agree with Goatherd 
Your Pyr is still young -  Give him a chance....
Work with him...

Let me tell you a little story;

My Pyr is little over 3 months old.
Very friendly in general to my visitors/friends
Then one day another kind of friend came...this was a Jewish fellow, who looks different!!! You know those black hats, black coats....
He spoke very loud and was trying to pet the dog "from the top"-you know, his hand was high in the air going down - you don't approach dogs like that - person need to go from "down' direction.

And...the dog stepped back few feet...
Jewish attempt it again...the dog stepped back again about 5 feet.

Was that fear? Perhaps....or rather the dog was cautious of something unknown to him.

Few hours later, when my friend/Jewish took his Sabbath clothes off and when he looks like we do, then my dog was OK with him.


----------



## redtailgal (Jun 7, 2011)

.


----------



## treeclimber233 (Jun 8, 2011)

I am hoping he is just going thru a phase right now.  He adores me and is so happy to see me come to the barn.  I don't think neutering him will stunt his growth--at 4 months he could stand on his back legs and put his feet in my face!!!!  He is huge.  I don't  actually let him put his feet on me but he jumps up on the gate and I can tell his feet are very close to my face.  Two things I can't stand is muddy feet on me and dog drool.  With him I am going to have to learn to live with drool but muddy feet must stay on the ground.  Anyway back to his "fraidy cat ways"  I don't have a way to take him into public to meet people.  He is  terrified of vehicles.  When I took him to get his rabies shot I had to carry him to the truck.  When I got to the vets I could not get him out of the crate he was in.  The vet had to go out to the truck and give him his shot.  For 2 weeks after that he would not go anywhere near the vehicle.  About a week ago my daughter came for a visit and went to the barn.  Drift (LGD) seemed uneasy but did not run to the other end of the pen.  She is a dog trainer and did not like his reaction to her.  He even came to the gate and sniffed her dog a bit before he backed off.  He did not run but he did not bark at her or her dog at all.  I don't want him attacking people but I do want him to bark.  At what age should he be showing aggression/guarding  to other dogs?  As for training all I have done with him is (1) come when I call, (2) sit in front of me (no jumping on me allowed) and (3) started leash training (he freaks out when I try to hold his collar).  Now if I could just teach him not to get between me and the goats when I am trying to do something with the goats ........Some of my goats are still very small and when I lean over to grab their collars Drift is there with a huge sloppy kiss.......


----------



## Roll farms (Jun 8, 2011)

We had to sedate one of our LGD to take him anywhere.  He'd go on or off lead to the back of our property w/ us, but if you even acted as if you were taking him "north" (toward the house / cars) he'd put the breaks on and stop.  

I can't / won't drag a dog who outweighs me...

Discussed it w/ the vet and we ended up giving him 'happy pills' whenever we needed to transport him after that.

If you can't take him anywhere, invite more people over to get him acclimated to it.


----------



## redtailgal (Jun 8, 2011)

.


----------



## Goatherd (Jun 9, 2011)

You mentioned that your daughter is a dog trainer.  Did she have advice and techniques for you to use?  

I know this analogy isn't exactly the same, but did you ever see the movie The Miracle Worker, with Paty Duke?  It's the story of Helen Keller.  
I never forget the scene where Patty Duke, who played Ann Sullivan the teacher, was determined to make Helen use a fork to eat her food rather than her hands and grabbing from the plates...hers as well as anyone else at the table.
She told the family to get out of the dining room, locked the doors, and hours later came out covered in food, bedraggled and looking like she had been through the war.
She looked at the father of Helen and said she "finally" got Helen to use a fork to eat with a fork.  It wasn't easy, but with repetition and instruction, she succeeded.
I know it's not the same, but with every animal I've ever had that's been somewhat of a problem I always remember and apply this theory with their training.  With time and perseverance I will make progress, gain their trust, and get them to understand what is expected of them.  So far, it's never failed.  Some times, I look like the wrath of God has descended on me, physically, but I do make progress.

Best of luck in your training.


----------



## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't like choke collars on dogs who panic and pull hard.  They can damage their trachea.  As cruel as they look....I like pinch collars WAY better. They look bad because of the pokey spikes on them, but the spikes are rounded and only poke the dog in the neck....they don't really do damage.  But they do get the dogs attention without him pulling hard enough to damage his trachea.  They did a study once in england.  50 dogs spent their lives with choke collars, and 50 had pinch collars.  When the dogs died of old age, the throat and neck of each was evaluated.  The dogs who had been walked with choke collars all had some degree of neck and throat damage and the dogs walked with pinch collars had no damage.  Anyway...back to the point.  

Get that dog walking nicely on a leash.  That will build confidance in him.  Also get him used to the car, even if that means feeding him next to the car for a while and then feeding him IN the car.  Don't worry...he won't starve.  He may miss a few meals, but he has to get used to cars.  Once he realized cars won't hurt him, he will gain confidance.  He has got to be socialized ASAP or he will be a problem dog forever.


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 9, 2011)

Don't worry about the barking.....I thought that my Pyr (3.5 mo. old) doesn't have a vice, he was so quiet....
Then one day goose was trying to eat from his bowl; what a beautiful "warning" bark I heard! It was deep baritone!

When we first introduced him to leash, we needed to drag him....
Now my 5 years old grand-daughter is running with him on a leash around the house and doesn't need to drag him....

Patience....some dogs take shorten time, some may take longer.

Many good wishes with his training! He sounds like he LOVES you!


----------



## redtailgal (Jun 9, 2011)

.


----------



## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

no offense at all.  Different things work for different dogs.  And you are right....not used properly both collars can cause damage.  I know with my pit bull she did OK on a choker, but did far better with a pinch.  She does not pull at all and walks calmly.  Her neck is so heavily muscled I don't think the choker bothered her enough for it to work well.


----------



## redtailgal (Jun 9, 2011)

.


----------



## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

yeah, that really is stupid.  But honestly...I bulked at using one for years for the same reason.  I thought they looked mean.  but when I started reading up on them and then got one, I was so amazed at how instantly Bailey begin behaving so beautifully.  When she is on just a choker and we take her to places where there are lots of dogs, she is very interested in all the dogs and constantly distracted.  and she pulls quite a bit, making the whole walk more stressful for everyone.  With the pinch collar, she is a perfect angel.  No pulling and calmly walking along with a loose leash.  It just makes such a difference with her.


----------



## peachick (Jun 10, 2011)

I have not read every post on this thread  but  here is my 2 cents on the first post.

I have been competitive in dog training for 20 years,  I have read almost every dog behavior book written.   So  in MY opinion, judging a 6 month old pup on one bad day is not fair to the dog.

Look at it from his perspective....  He was just taken away from his mom, litter mates, and the family he was raised with....  that adds a lot of strees hormones into his blood stream.  Then you put him in a new environment where he has not had time to become confidant in...  more stress hormones piling into his blood stream.  Then he is introduce to new people that are starring at him reaching for him and chasing him..... adding an overload of stress hormones into his blood stream.  These hormones take around 3 days to dissapate from the blood stream even if there was only one stressfull event.  Because so much was happening to him  he was on stress hormone overload.

Think of yourself when you have a bad day,  a series of events happen back to back and after the 3rd stress  you are a nervous wreck...  

The fight or flight instinct is strong.  Be HAPPY that the pups instinct was to run away...  smart puppy.  He knew it was more than he could handle, at that time.

My advice is to give him a break and let him ease into his new home slowly.


----------



## redtailgal (Jun 12, 2011)

.


----------



## treeclimber233 (Jun 14, 2011)

peachick said:
			
		

> I have not read every post on this thread  but  here is my 2 cents on the first post.
> 
> I have been competitive in dog training for 20 years,  I have read almost every dog behavior book written.   So  in MY opinion, judging a 6 month old pup on one bad day is not fair to the dog.
> 
> ...


I did not just get him.  I have had him since early Feb. He was 5-6 weeks old. He was weaned at an earlier age than I would have weaned him but that was the breeders choice. 

As for advice to feed him in the car:  for some reason he is terrified to get off the ground.  I know that sounds silly but he will not  come up steps onto the deck.  He will put three feet on the steps but will not take the fourth foot off the ground.  I feed the cat on the picnic table so the Border Collie wont eat his food.  Drift will stretch as far as he can to get the cat food (almost reaches it).  The only way he can get it is to climb onto the bench and as soon as he climbs on the bench and realizes he is off the ground he panics and jumps down (not taking time to eat the cat food first). Then he will bark at the table and circle it for an hour trying repeatedly to get the catfood. I havent corrected him for getting on the picnic table because I want to let him work it out on his own. I want him to figure out that getting off the ground wont kill him but it has been a month or two and he still wont get off he ground to eat the cat food.

He was better the other day when the vet was here.  He seemed uneasy but at least he did bark at the vet and not try to run for the hills.


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 14, 2011)

treeclimber233 said:
			
		

> He was better the other day when the vet was here.  He seemed uneasy but at least he did bark at the vet and not try to run for the hills.


There you go; he crossed one stepping stone! He is barking and not running!
That is a progress in itself. I'm sure the rest will come with time.

One of my dogs didn't walk the stairs on a beginning. I was holding him, placing his legs, one stair on a time.... He did learned


----------



## redtailgal (Jun 14, 2011)

...


----------



## lgdnevada (Jun 20, 2011)

treeclimber I would not give up on him yet.  If it makes you feel any better, I have a huge male Pyr who is quite skittish around strangers and visitors.  He won't run away but he won't let them touch him, either.  He remains aloof and watches them closely.  His brother down the road from me does the exact same thing.  Some of this might be just 'how they are'.  Work with him and don't give up yet.  I would rather have a dog that does not knock people over licking them to death (lol) and make it easy for someone to enter your place without permission, or get robbed....some of this he might grow out of too.


----------

