# mysunwolf's Kindling Thread



## mysunwolf (Mar 6, 2014)

Our San Juan doe, Evie, kindled early early this morning (before I got up). I haven't been able to actually count the babies as it's 25˚F and I don't want to uncover them for too long, but they all look perfect, beautiful, and healthy! She was bred to a young Californian buck, but the kits are dark so no white babies for me.

I have never had rabbits before, so the fact that she did everything right and worked with me through every step of the way was incredibly lucky. Here's her story.

I picked Evie up at a local small livestock swap in mid-October. The woman had a ton of cages and clearly needed to get rid of all her weaned kits. I paid $5 for her as an 8 week old, fascinated because she looked like a cottontail.




 

She was terrified for the first few weeks. I don't handle my rabbits a lot, but I do make sure to pet them and give them treats. They generally know my voice and my smell, and they know me as the food bringer for sure. Evie slowly made progress, and after about a month she would come to the front of the cage and seek out my hand for pets. She was definitely the sweeter of the two does.



 

At the end of January, she suddenly turned aggressive. She would attempt to attack my hand when I was cleaning dirty hay from her cage. She began to growl and rear up and scratch me. The worst day was Feb 3: I went to place her bowl of fresh water in the cage, and she lunged forward and bit me. Of course, I dropped the water all over the place. I refilled the bowl, then firmly held her down with one hand while I set the water bowl down with the other. The situation was under control as long as I could hold her down. But the growling was unsettling. What had happened to bring on this sudden change in my sweet doe?

I thought about it for a few hours. I did a bunch of research. She was an almost-exactly 5-month-old San Juan doe during breeding season. I was pretty sure I knew what that meant; I bit the bullet and put her in the cage with the older buck, a skittish Californian. 



 

He got very excited. She attacked him multiple times, but he didn't really mind, just kept trying to get a hold of her. He mounted her head a few times, did the jack-hammer thing. Finally, he managed to find the right side of the rabbit, and he fell of sideways. Evie immediately started growling at him, at me, everything. I put her in her own cage, where she went to the back corner and pouted. I re-bred her about 10 hours later, just to be sure, and this time the buck found the right end of the doe a lot faster. When I put Evie in her cage, she snarled.

However, over the next few days, Evie became herself again. She was sweet and friendly, came up to the cage for pets. Everything seemed to be back to normal.



 

And the buck was completely changed. Where he had once been skittish, terrified of me and my hand, he now became calm and eager for attention.

I was officially confused by rabbits.

At exactly 30 days, I realized that I should probably either get the nest box built or fill her cage with hay. I sloppily built a 12" x 18" nest box (thinking of my other doe who was larger) with a wire bottom, put some hay in it, and placed it in her cage on the side where she had NOT currently been pooping. First, Evie chewed on it like a crazy rabbit. I rolled my eyes and left her to her rabbit antics. A few hours later, when I came back, she had stuffed every last piece of hay from her cage into the nest box. That evening, almost finished with chores, I checked on her again. It looked like a rabbit had exploded all over that nest box: it was literally overflowing in fur. I hadn't realized that Evie had that much fur to spare. I didn't even see bare patches on her. I was impressed.

At 31 days exactly, I went out to check and found that the mass of fur was moving.



 

And there they were, Evie's babies! Her first kits and my first kits.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 6, 2014)

Congrats on the babies!


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## SA Farm (Mar 6, 2014)

Congratulations. Glad you figured out she just wanted to have babies! My buck is super friendly too. He gets super excited whenever he sees me carrying another rabbit!


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## mysunwolf (Mar 6, 2014)

Thank you!! I love that this doe "let me know" she wanted to be bred by becoming a grumpy little thing. My other doe (the attached picture that didn't quite work) had a false pregnancy. Probably because I didn't breed her 

It cracks me up how much the bucks just go crazy for the does while the does just want to get bred and be done


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## P.O. in MO (Mar 7, 2014)

Good story.  On my first litter I took a good look at the does belly because I didn't see how there could be any fur left after all that was in the nest box.  Most of my rabbits always seem a little calmer while they have a litter in with them.  Good luck with your bunnies.


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## mysunwolf (Mar 9, 2014)

Just some updated images... there are 9 kits, all alive so far, and BIG!





Momma is very proud


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## P.O. in MO (Mar 9, 2014)

Nice bunch of rabbits.  First litters are quite a learning experience.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 10, 2014)

Looking good!

I'll second the thought about 1st litters being a learning experience!


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## Petty (Mar 10, 2014)

Congratulations! Nine rabbits at a go, you're lucky. Some rabbits will give birth to less.


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## mysunwolf (Mar 10, 2014)

Okay, I counted again today and only counted 8 babies! So probably just mis-counted  But she has been such a good momma. Nice for my first time as well, an easy experience overall! I'm sure my next girl, the false pregnancy doe named Snow, is not going to make it easy on either of us...


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## mysunwolf (Mar 20, 2014)

So there WERE 9 babies, but on the coldest night one of them jumped out and got stuck behind the nest box  That was sure a lesson--the box is now wedged firmly against the back wall, as well as there being a brick in front for them to climb back in. I also have put more hay down over the wire so that if they do get out, they can cuddle with mom for warmth in the hay.

The saddest part of that baby dying was that it was lilac  All the other 8 babies are alive and well and have fur and open eyes (they turned two weeks old today). I still have 1 more lilac (I'm sure it's a buck), 2 chestnuts, and 5 blacks (of various shades). Very excited to see them as they get bigger and see how their colors change.

I've been trying to sex them to get an idea of how many girls I might have, but it's so tiny and confusing down there  I think I'm going to save quite a few does. 

I can see this bunny thing becoming addicting


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## Cedar Valley Farm (Mar 20, 2014)

Our NZ black kindled with 14 a few months back an 16 the last time. I always breed one of my other does thats don't have very many. And foster them. Love the story! Great to have a AWESOME start


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## mysunwolf (Mar 20, 2014)

Cedar Valley Farm said:


> Our NZ black kindled with 14 a few months back an 16 the last time. I always breed one of my other does thats don't have very many. And foster them. Love the story! Great to have a AWESOME start



Awesome!! I almost asked how she would ever be able to raise 10+ babies   Fostering is a great idea!


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## mysunwolf (Mar 22, 2014)

The babies are at two weeks! Does anyone else weigh this early in the game? I'm interested in growth rates when they're this small, up until slaughter around 12 weeks, to track which does produce fast-growing litters who reach slaughter size early.

They've started to jump out of the box.



 
So far there are still 8 of them! Doesn't that one near the bottom look lilac?


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## VickieB (Mar 22, 2014)

How sweet!  I start weighing mine at 3 weeks.


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## SA Farm (Mar 22, 2014)

Hard to determine gender before 3-4 weeks to me. Their bits are just to itty bitty 
I also start weighing at 3 weeks


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## Petty (Mar 27, 2014)

Wow, they really look good at 2 weeks. You can start weighing them if you like. The earlier the better.


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## mysunwolf (Apr 5, 2014)

The "false pregnancy" girl started pulling fur about a week before she was due. This morning, she had her first ACTUAL babies right at 31 days! There are at least 8 of the little ones in there. This is her first kindling, so we'll see over the next few weeks if she can raise them right.

Momma is serene and relieved. She must have pulled even more fur last night, because the entire shed was covered in little tufts.





A nest full of kits! She had a ton of good, warm fur. Looks like there are a few brokens in there. I am so happy and so is my rabbit


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## SA Farm (Apr 5, 2014)

Awww, congrats!


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## P.O. in MO (Apr 5, 2014)

Glad you got a good litter.  Hope they all do well!!


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 5, 2014)

Congrats!


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## VickieB (Apr 5, 2014)

Congratulations!


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## mysunwolf (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks everyone, I am so excited!!  

We have ducklings hatching tomorrow, chicks in the yard, lambs on the way, and so with the addition of all these baby bunnies it feels like springtime heaven around here


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## happy acres (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm jealous! Must get rabbits!


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## mysunwolf (Apr 21, 2014)

Rabbits are definitely worth having around. And once you find a reliable momma, they start multiplying like crazy...


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## mysunwolf (Apr 21, 2014)

Evie's kits are coming up on 7 weeks and are now in our "bunny tractor." We had a mishap while I was out of town and they all escaped... but I caught all but one kit (who was killed by the neighbor's cat that night) and put them back. They are loving the grass. This is a big experiment, so we'll see how it goes. Currently their diet is mostly fresh grass with a little bit of pellets supplemented at the end of the day. I've heard they grow slower purely on grass, so the pellets (corn-based, not alfalfa-based like the ones I feed my breeders) are an attempt to keep them growing at a good rate. Hoping to use a whole grain mixture in the future.








 




For genetic references...

chesnut doe X pointed white buck =

chestnut
chestnut
black
black
black
blue/lilac
blue/lilac
gold-tipped black
gold-tipped black


While trying to breed Evie back when the kits were 4 weeks old, my Flemish X buck failed at mating. He has done this multiple times since then. We decided to wait a few more weeks as Evie didn't seem ready to breed yet. Well, just recently she started getting aggressive again. This is how she lets us know she is ready to be bred! I put her in with my Californian and he bred her in a heartbeat.

Snow's kits are now about 2 weeks old, so I decided to breed her back as well so that her and Evie would kindle back-to-back. She was definitely ready, and the buck got his job done fast. He is a great guy to have around--I will have to remember to save one of his lilac/blue male kits to retain as a breeder.

More genetic info...

broken black doe X pointed white buck =

black
blue/lilac
REW
broken black
broken black
broken blue
broken ? (possibly blue agouti)

I'll get some photos of the 2 week old kits to post. There's one with the strangest coloring.


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## mysunwolf (Apr 21, 2014)

I've got two of them colored like this:



Is this color just broken blue tortoiseshell? 

And here is mom with the kit that looks like her:


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Apr 21, 2014)

Adorable!  Makes me want more bunnies than the single one we have.  He's a neutered male...so, no baby bunnies for me.  

How is the grass/pasture raising going?  I've wondered about doing that, and I've read arguments on both sides.  Given all the happy, healthy  wild cottontails we have around our house, pasture raised rabbit seems like a more natural option.

How soon can you put out the babies?  How do you transition a rabbit from straight pellets to grass?  Do you have issues with them digging out?  I'd love to actually hear from someone with first hand experience.


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## mysunwolf (Apr 22, 2014)

HoneyDreameMomma said:


> Adorable!  Makes me want more bunnies than the single one we have.  He's a neutered male...so, no baby bunnies for me.
> 
> How is the grass/pasture raising going?  I've wondered about doing that, and I've read arguments on both sides.  Given all the happy, healthy  wild cottontails we have around our house, pasture raised rabbit seems like a more natural option.
> 
> How soon can you put out the babies?  How do you transition a rabbit from straight pellets to grass?  Do you have issues with them digging out?  I'd love to actually hear from someone with first hand experience.



Brace yourself for a long post 

I think it's always worth breeding meat rabbits! Easy, economical, etc.

The pasture raising is going really well, but it is most definitely a work in progress. They are essentially in my backyard, since we have predators galore out in the "real" pasture.

Starting at 4 weeks, when the weather was nice, the kits went on "pasture field trips" where they could jump around in a pen and explore the grass. They didn't eat much grass at first. I only took them out a few times. They also received a lot of fresh grass that I picked and put in their raised cage w/mom. The kits went out full-time to the pen at 5 weeks old (and they handled below freezing temps with no problem). I kept a large supply of good-quality hay in there with them for the first week, as well as feeding the same alfalfa pellets they had always eaten. I switched to corn/alfalfa mix pellets recently with no transition and they have been fine. It's easy to watch the poops to make sure they're handling diet adjustments.

This is the bunny tractor:




Originally, we used it for ducks, but I got tired of ducks. At first it was open bottomed, but then we figured out that if there was even a hole just 3" wide along the bottom (example, where the ground isn't perfectly flat), they would all figure out how to escape. Now, there's 2" x 4" garden fencing nailed to the bottom. There's not much digging going on as we move it every day. They can still access the grass pretty well through the fencing (they are currently mowing my lawn for me). It's a little heavy with all that wood, but I like that because it's more predator proof. Dimensions are 2' x 8', which means it can grow out two full litters at a time with lots of room. They do, however, eat a LOT of grass. They like it to be moved 2-3x per day, otherwise they eat down the grass and there is too much poop.

This method feels just as clean as them being in a raised wire cage. But, if there are rabbits on my soil for any length of time, parasites (including the dreaded coccidia, blehck) may start to build up. For most animals, a good 3-6 months rest on the soil is good, but I don't know if I can achieve that if I just keep them on the lawn. I may see trouble in the future that isn't showing up now. I think this is what people mean when they say that you "just can't pasture raise rabbits." However, I know a woman who has raised rabbits for 5+ years who just had an outbreak of cocci in her raised cage rabbits, so it happens on wire too. Not too sure about worms--my hope is that the rabbits will be slaughtered by 12 weeks anyway, so the worms will not have a chance to kill them by then. If I choose to save breeders from these batches of pasture-raised babies, I'm not sure what kind of effect it will have on them in the long term. That's why this is an experiment 

The other important thing for me was that I started with backyard mutts. I bought rabbits from local people specifically breeding for meat--presumably, this meant they were also breeding for general health and good mothering instincts. 

I have to say that I've been too chicken to put my adult breeders on pasture since they are so valuable to me, but I do bring them handfuls of fresh grass when it's available. In the future, maybe I can get everyone out on pasture.

There's my WAY too long post


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 22, 2014)

very interesting, please keep updating and tell us how this is all working.


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## mysunwolf (Jun 18, 2014)

Pasturing the adolescents is going very well and certainly keeping them from getting cocci. Plus, they're too young to get overly infested with worms. They're 100% grass fed from 5 weeks to 12 weeks, so they don't get quite as big as they would being supplemented with grain.

Update on the momma bunnies, Evie had 8 this time and Snow had 10! I didn't get Snow's previous litter weaned in time, and she lost quite a bit of weight producing milk for all those babies. But both does are doing well now.

A (bad) photo of Evie with her litter.




4 lilacs
1 blue
1 black
1 steel
1 chestnut


And Snow with hers.



1 broken black
2 blue
3 black
4 REW


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## P.O. in MO (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks for keeping us informed on your pasturing experience.  I raise in cages but have always intended to do some pasturing experiments of my own and hopefully will get to it this fall.  I have not done a lot of research on the subject but my main concern was the problem with worms.  I have read several times that if you don't want your rabbits to have worms, keep them off the ground.  I thought the solution to this might be to add food grade diatomaceous earth to the feed, have you ever considered this.  A 10 lb. bag is around $14.00 or 50 lb. bag is $28.00.  I think the amount for a rabbit would be around a teaspoon a day so cost would be minimal and easily paid for by the amount of feed saved by pasturing.  It's shelf life if forever, too.


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## mysunwolf (Jun 18, 2014)

P.O. in MO said:


> Thanks for keeping us informed on your pasturing experience.  I raise in cages but have always intended to do some pasturing experiments of my own and hopefully will get to it this fall.  I have not done a lot of research on the subject but my main concern was the problem with worms.  I have read several times that if you don't want your rabbits to have worms, keep them off the ground.  I thought the solution to this might be to add food grade diatomaceous earth to the feed, have you ever considered this.  A 10 lb. bag is around $14.00 or 50 lb. bag is $28.00.  I think the amount for a rabbit would be around a teaspoon a day so cost would be minimal and easily paid for by the amount of feed saved by pasturing.  It's shelf life if forever, too.



I agree, I think the main problem is with worms--I have had people who raise on wire have kits and adults die of cocci. I know with poultry that an easy fix to cocci, even with bloody poop, is just to move them to uninfested ground, so I'm assuming the same is true for rabbits.

I've definitely considered DE for parasite management with other livestock, but as an internal dewormer/preventative I haven't had any luck, nor have I found any scientific studies that support its use in that way. Externally, I believe it does work for parasites, but wood ash does the same thing and it's free!

I'm thinking they would also have to have a free choice mineral supplement if they were supposed to get all their food from pasture.

Ideally, my way to deal with parasites would be to rigorously cull based on fecal results. I had a rabbit breeder tell me it would take three generations to come up with a line that was hardy on 100% pasture... I took that as a challenge


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## Sumi (Jun 19, 2014)

I just found and read through this thread. It was interesting and mysunwolf, your pics are amazing! I've seen many rabbits before, but never babies, awww man, they're cute  Thank you for sharing! I think I may have to put rabbits on my to-get list now as well...


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