# Why am I losing ducks with my LGD on duty?



## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

I brought my trained LGD "Indie" home a month ago, she is almost 2 years old.  She is an absolute sweetheart, she is great with the goats, chickens, ducks, plays with my farm dog in the evenings and at some points during the day, who is also her age, she is protective, she barked a lot at night when she first got here, and I was happy with that, I hadn't lost any birds... until this week!  I've lost 5 ducks in the past 10 days, so I locked the rest of the ducks up, I don't know what is getting in the pasture but I am guessing it might be a raccoon, possibly a bobcat because I haven't seen any signs of struggle, just completely missing birds...   Just for some more background info, I only have 1 acre, but my dads land is next to mine and he has 6 acres, but we have been keeping our fence that divides our property closed so that Indie stays near the goats and birds at night.
   I haven't heard her barking much at night, and she won't stay in the pasture where all the animals are, but she knows how to get in and out (I put a bungee cord on the gate so she can go in and out until I figure out how to keep her in there at night, as she is a great digger and very persistent about not being locked up)  Indie had a litter of puppies at her previous home, and they were 10 weeks old when I went to pick her up.  She is still not spayed but I plan on getting it done very soon.   My question is would the possibility of her about to be in heat affect how she is not doing her job?  Do dogs get tired and lethargic like we do as women? Lol I just don't know.  I just checked on her and she is just laying out in the yard looking like she's asleep, (it's 1am) and my truck is in between her and the pasture, she it's not like she is even paying attention to where the animals are.  Does she not have a drive to protect her new stock because she isn't bonded with them yet?  I don't know what to do.  Should I get guinnea fowl to have an alarm system? Lol.  I just bought motion sensor solar lights to put out in the pasture tomorrow too...


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## babsbag (Mar 21, 2019)

Are you losing the ducks at night or during the day? Is is possible that it is an owl or hawk?


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 21, 2019)

So sorry for your losses........what breed of duck and how old were they?.....it could be that Indie is overwhelmed by the amount of predators.....what kind of fencing do ya have?....and where were the ducks staying when they were nabbed?.....when any female animal goes into her estrus cycle the drive is nature and it is in their dna to reproduce, so anything else is ignored......there are several predators that could be the culprit....depending on size....and don't discount humans either.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

babsbag said:


> Are you losing the ducks at night or during the day? Is is possible that it is an owl or hawk?


I am not entirely sure if it could be a hawk or owl... I have a HUGE tree that everyone hides under when any hawks come around, the roosters alert.  I am pretty sure it's happening at night.


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## babsbag (Mar 21, 2019)

I am surprised that the LGD doesn't bark if it is a ground predator, but an owl might be another story.  Another possibility is that it is something big and she knows that she is outmatched. But a large animal should show some sign of messing with your fence. I have a coyote or fox taking chickens (no dog in that pen) during the day but I can see where they dig under the fence and I can see some feathers where they make the first grab. If you see no evidence at all it would make me think even more that it is a bird of prey. Maybe get a game cam. It is so heartbreaking to lose our animals.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

CntryBoy777 said:


> So sorry for your losses........what breed of duck and how old were they?.....it could be that Indie is overwhelmed by the amount of predators.....what kind of fencing do ya have?....and where were the ducks staying when they were nabbed?.....when any female animal goes into her estrus cycle the drive is nature and it is in their dna to reproduce, so anything else is ignored......there are several predators that could be the culprit....depending on size....and don't discount humans either.


They were mixed breed ducks, I lost 2 full grown Cayuga and a Pekin, then it's offspring that were 2 months old.  They are all free range and will not go in at night. I also had one of my huge BLRW roosters attacked by something at night then the next day he died in the coop.  I didn't have any issues with predators since I trapped a bobcat 2 years ago.  Maybe another bobcat moved in or maybe it's the awful raccoons that I see down the street, whatever it is, Indie isn't scaring it off.  I don't know how many predators, I am putting cameras up soon though.  I don't live near woods really but I am near the railroad tracks that are wooded...  But anyway I'm sure the ducks make a huge loud fuss when they're being murdered, I just don't understand why she isn't going over there and doing her job. So weird. Here is some photos of the fencing,,, It's a corner of my property so half of it is 6ft privacy fence, the other half is 6ft livestock post fence.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

babsbag said:


> I am surprised that the LGD doesn't bark if it is a ground predator, but an owl might be another story.  Another possibility is that it is something big and she knows that she is outmatched. But a large animal should show some sign of messing with your fence. I have a coyote or fox taking chickens (no dog in that pen) during the day but I can see where they dig under the fence and I can see some feathers where they make the first grab. If you see no evidence at all it would make me think even more that it is a bird of prey. Maybe get a game cam. It is so heartbreaking to lose our animals.


That is what I thought, it's so odd that there are no signs of struggle... There's no way it's that large of an animal, no bear, or wolves where I live, and I've never seen a Florida panther as long as i've lived here... Gotta be a pesky raccoon climbing the fence, I just don't know how it can be so stealthy or quick about it if it's gotta scale a 6ft fence with a duck in it's mouth.  So maybe it's a bobcat, it could scale the fence easily.  I'm getting cameras put in soon and they have really good night vision too!


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

Oh by the way, I went outside again to see what Indie was doing and I had to say hey! and point out a rabbit hopping around about 50ft from her.  Seriously? Lol what is going on with her? I know a rabbit isn't a predator, but she noticed it after I pointed it out then she chased it haha but didn't bark!


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## babsbag (Mar 21, 2019)

Ducks are pretty good size too; I would think that a racoon would have a hard time carrying it in its mouth and climbing a fence. That is just strange that she isn't chasing things off. Could she be depressed from leaving her home and her pups?  I know that you are only on an acre but these dogs really do better in pairs.


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 21, 2019)

I would ask the breeder how she was trained and for what?...if it is that sized duck, I doubt that a large GHO could fly off with one....ducks can see at night, but chickens can't....they are blind without light....I had ducks and put them in at night, because of possums and coons, but there would be evidence left with either of those....I still wouldn't count out humans.....we gave our ducks to a lady before we moved and after she had them for about 3mnths, they started missing and she couldn't figure out why or what....then, the culprit was caught....it was a human and he had taken every duck except 1....it was 12 ducks that we gave her....came to find out that there was bad blood between their families and the guy did it cause the lady liked the ducks so much and he wanted her pay for turning him in to the law for something else he did....so, I think ya are wise to get some game cameras set up so ya will know just what ya are up against....


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

babsbag said:


> Ducks are pretty good size too; I would think that a racoon would have a hard time carrying it in its mouth and climbing a fence. That is just strange that she isn't chasing things off. Could she be depressed from leaving her home and her pups?  I know that you are only on an acre but these dogs really do better in pairs.


I was wondering if she might be depressed  she hangs out with my other to farm dogs too though. But they’re not LGDs and they sleep in the house at night.  I’m worried two will be bored here.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

CntryBoy777 said:


> I would ask the breeder how she was trained and for what?...if it is that sized duck, I doubt that a large GHO could fly off with one....ducks can see at night, but chickens can't....they are blind without light....I had ducks and put them in at night, because of possums and coons, but there would be evidence left with either of those....I still wouldn't count out humans.....we gave our ducks to a lady before we moved and after she had them for about 3mnths, they started missing and she couldn't figure out why or what....then, the culprit was caught....it was a human and he had taken every duck except 1....it was 12 ducks that we gave her....came to find out that there was bad blood between their families and the guy did it cause the lady liked the ducks so much and he wanted her pay for turning him in to the law for something else he did....so, I think ya are wise to get some game cameras set up so ya will know just what ya are up against....


 If my weird neighbor is stealing my ducks I’d be pissed. He told me he found a carcass of one of my ducks in his land when I asked him if he’s seen any coyotes or bobcats. But I don’t think it is him. I think the dogs would be going crazy if that were the case.  I need to get this camera system up ASAP.


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## babsbag (Mar 21, 2019)

When I had my first duck disappear I found the feathers and a few bones about 800' from my pen. I am sure it was a coyote. Yes to the cameras.  

I live on 5 acres but when I first got my LGDs they were in a field that was about 1/4 acre. They did fine.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

babsbag said:


> When I had my first duck disappear I found the feathers and a few bones about 800' from my pen. I am sure it was a coyote. Yes to the cameras.
> 
> I live on 5 acres but when I first got my LGDs they were in a field that was about 1/4 acre. They did fine.


 That is good to know because my pasture is about 1/4 acre. So you had two LGDs in a smaller area?  My neighbor swears there are coyotes around. I’ve never heard any. Wouldn’t they dig under the fences?


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 21, 2019)

Not necessarily.....they can jump about 10' high....flatfooted, standing still jump.....they will also use their dew claws to climb the fence.....if they are in a pack...2-3 will draw the dogs attention while others get in, get, and hightail it out....then they will share the spoils....if they are successful, they will continue til all are full or they are scared off by whatever the means.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

CntryBoy777 said:


> Not necessarily.....they can jump about 10' high....flatfooted, standing still jump.....they will also use their dew claws to climb the fence.....if they are in a pack...2-3 will draw the dogs attention while others get in, get, and hightail it out....then they will share the spoils....if they are successful, they will continue til all are full or they are scared off by whatever the means.


Wow, I had no idea!! 
Well I will hopefully know by next week what it is because the cameras are hopefully going up Sunday


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## CntryBoy777 (Mar 21, 2019)

Something else to think of....there might not be anything "wrong" with your dog....but, if she is separated at night with the goats and chickens....and the ducks stay out....the routine seems to signal that the ducks are not her's and she doesn't watch them....also, ducks can fly the degree to which they do can be factored by breed and wt.....within the breed it will vary by the duck and wt plays a role.....I know a lady that had some Pekins and she said they would fly over 100' ...7' off the ground....we had Khaki Campbells and they would only fly about 6' high for about 15-20'.....I fed them some pellets to keep them on the heavier side......


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 21, 2019)

CntryBoy777 said:


> Something else to think of....there might not be anything "wrong" with your dog....but, if she is separated at night with the goats and chickens....and the ducks stay out....the routine seems to signal that the ducks are not her's and she doesn't watch them....also, ducks can fly the degree to which they do can be factored by breed and wt.....within the breed it will vary by the duck and wt plays a role.....I know a lady that had some Pekins and she said they would fly over 100' ...7' off the ground....we had Khaki Campbells and they would only fly about 6' high for about 15-20'.....I fed them some pellets to keep them on the heavier side......



Well they're all in the same pasture, I meant "out" because they don't want to go in a pen of any kind, my chickens get locked up "sometimes" (when i'm off work because i'm home when they're ready for bed) and the goats stay out in the pasture all night.


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## babsbag (Mar 21, 2019)

If it is a coyote your goats could be next. I see coyotes around here and they jump the 4' fence without even trying. They also dig under, just depends on what is the easiest.  Please be sure and let us know what the cameras catch. 

Yes, I had two LGDs in a very small pasture. I just like them in pairs...I like to raise everything with another of their own kind. They aren't high energy dogs and they never seemed to be bored. And they did play with each other, which I liked.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 21, 2019)

The farm you got her from, how many LGD's was she with? Was she part of a team? I know she had pups, I am not talking about them.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 22, 2019)

babsbag said:


> If it is a coyote your goats could be next. I see coyotes around here and they jump the 4' fence without even trying. They also dig under, just depends on what is the easiest.  Please be sure and let us know what the cameras catch.
> 
> Yes, I had two LGDs in a very small pasture. I just like them in pairs...I like to raise everything with another of their own kind. They aren't high energy dogs and they never seemed to be bored. And they did play with each other, which I liked.


Ugh I hate to think about that! I have been checking on them all throughout the night, and I put a bright motion light out in the pasture too.  I might end up looking for another LGD since you've told me all of this.  I was worried I didn't have enough work for two.  I will definitely let everyone know what I find out! Thank you for all the info!


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 22, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> The farm you got her from, how many LGD's was she with? Was she part of a team? I know she had pups, I am not talking about them.



So I'm not exactly sure, I know the lady had a male PYR that was the sire of the pups, she told me the two dogs would patrol her property, that they wore down the grass on the perimeter of the fences because of their patrolling, I have not seen Indie do this at all. I feel like they got Indie just to breed her and sell the pups but i'm not entirely sure...  She is fabulous with the livestock, she acts like a perfect LGD with her goats, she hasn't bonded yet but when she is in the pasture she pays no attention when the kids jump on her, I can tell she was raised right.
 Now, I do leave my female farm dog who is Indie's age outside all day and most of the night while i'm at work.  They play then lay around together, and my Zena is a really good watch dog, nothing gets passed her, she can smell a possum all the way on the other side on my dads acreage, and she goes chasing rabbits that I haven't seen yet because they're so far away.  I also trust Zena for the most part around the animals.  She is perfectly ok with the chickens, she is just still a little too curious with the new baby goats, but she got into the pasture today, she was barking at the neighbor walking around on the other side of the fence, and the kids were running around passed her and she didn't bother them at all, she's just curious.  But she's not a LGD (mastiff X curr) so I am careful. But she never even kills the possums around, just corners them and barks.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 24, 2019)

Update!  My dad spotted the culprit tonight!  Bobcat!  Now where do I go from here? They're so stealthy!  Should I try training Indie to recognize when the flock is in danger by all the loud sounds they make?  I have trained my farm dogs to do this before with the distinctive alert calls that the roosters and hens make during the say when they spot a predator nearby...  I figured she would have already known to do this instinctively but I guess not.  I am thinking of getting a couple guinnea hens to have them as the alarm system.  Or I can trap this bobcat as I've done in the past with another one.  Or just not have ducks anymore...  Decisions, decisions...


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## Simpleterrier (Mar 24, 2019)

Or get an Airedale and u can put the lgd on the porch


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## farmerjan (Mar 24, 2019)

Trap it or shoot it.  You will find that it will go after the chickens, the guineas  any small mammal it can, including the baby goats.  Once they find a place of free and easy meals, they will continue to frequent it until you stop them or all the meals are gone.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 24, 2019)

farmerjan said:


> Trap it or shoot it.  You will find that it will go after the chickens, the guineas  any small mammal it can, including the baby goats.  Once they find a place of free and easy meals, they will continue to frequent it until you stop them or all the meals are gone.


Ugh, yes It's never ending  I trapped one a coupe years ago.. I will try to trap this one again soon.  They're not the easiest to catch.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 24, 2019)

Simpleterrier said:


> Or get an Airedale and u can put the lgd on the porch


I have a Mastiff X Black Mouth Curr I am leaving outside with my PYR X Karakachan now.  I think as a team they will work very well together.  I'm going to try to trap the bobcat, somehow, i'll put the trap on the other side of the fence i suppose


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## Stephine (Mar 27, 2019)

She is very new at her new home and might just need to learn the ropes and bond to the animals you want her to protect, that might take a little while - also at 2 years old she is barely old enough to be a serious and trustworthy LGD. In the case of the rabbit - maybe she thought he belonged? It took you telling her that rabbits aren’t allowed for her to get on it. I definitely would give her time and attention. Let her see you take care of the ducks, so she knows they belong.
Does she have back up from the other dogs? That would be important if coyotes are to blame for the missing ducks. At the same time, they could show her which intruders are trouble. 
Yes, trapping is not a solution - as you saw, the niche that is left open will soon be filled by a new predator and you’ll only find out about it after suffering more losses. Better to be prepared for whatever might want to attack your livestock instead.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Mar 28, 2019)

Stephine said:


> She is very new at her new home and might just need to learn the ropes and bond to the animals you want her to protect, that might take a little while - also at 2 years old she is barely old enough to be a serious and trustworthy LGD. In the case of the rabbit - maybe she thought he belonged? It took you telling her that rabbits aren’t allowed for her to get on it. I definitely would give her time and attention. Let her see you take care of the ducks, so she knows they belong.
> Does she have back up from the other dogs? That would be important if coyotes are to blame for the missing ducks. At the same time, they could show her which intruders are trouble.
> Yes, trapping is not a solution - as you saw, the niche that is left open will soon be filled by a new predator and you’ll only find out about it after suffering more losses. Better to be prepared for whatever might want to attack your livestock instead.



I’ve been telling myself the same thing. She’s still new. Maybe I should leash her and bring her with me to do all the animal chores.  I was also thinking the age too. And I need to get her spayed ASAP.  She does have my other dog to back her up, I’ve been leaving her outside at night now and she is a great guard dog she is highly aware of predators. She was just always an indoor dog at night. She is making the transition.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 6, 2019)

Not all LGDs guard poultry well.  Also, the large tree in the poultry yard is probably how the bobcat is getting in to get the ducks.  Check to see if there are any overhanging branches that the bobcat can get to outside the fenced area where the dogs are.  Anytime you have a large tree in a poultry yard and lose poultry check up in the branches and tree canopy for carcasses.  Some predators will make the kill and take the carcass into the tree to eat it.  If the bobcat is getting in that way, your LGD may not smell her since the bobcat is up high.  She is still very young and inexperienced at 2 years old and may not realize that the danger is coming from overhead.  Also if she was bred, and weaned puppies before you got her at 2 years old,  that means maybe 3 months out of the LGD business while caring for pups.   Being bred would have meant several weeks heavily pregnant, and another 6 weeks (at least) feeding and caring for puppies.  It sounds like the previous owners were not too knowledgeable since a large breed like an LGD should be at least 3 years old before being physically mature enough to breed and raise a litter. 

It is good that the other dog wants to stay out with her.  Between the 2 dogs they might be able to let you know when the bobcat comes around.


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## Angeliki Manouselis (Apr 7, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> Not all LGDs guard poultry well.  Also, the large tree in the poultry yard is probably how the bobcat is getting in to get the ducks.  Check to see if there are any overhanging branches that the bobcat can get to outside the fenced area where the dogs are.  Anytime you have a large tree in a poultry yard and lose poultry check up in the branches and tree canopy for carcasses.  Some predators will make the kill and take the carcass into the tree to eat it.  If the bobcat is getting in that way, your LGD may not smell her since the bobcat is up high.  She is still very young and inexperienced at 2 years old and may not realize that the danger is coming from overhead.  Also if she was bred, and weaned puppies before you got her at 2 years old,  that means maybe 3 months out of the LGD business while caring for pups.   Being bred would have meant several weeks heavily pregnant, and another 6 weeks (at least) feeding and caring for puppies.  It sounds like the previous owners were not too knowledgeable since a large breed like an LGD should be at least 3 years old before being physically mature enough to breed and raise a litter.
> 
> It is good that the other dog wants to stay out with her.  Between the 2 dogs they might be able to let you know when the bobcat comes around.



Wow, you just made so much sense to something that happened during the week when all the ducks got taken.  I found a half eaten mutilated duck underneath the tree, and I was just so confused on how this happened.  It makes sense now, the carcass fell from the branches.  Dammit.  Well I cannot get rid of this tree, but I am trying to trap the bobcat.  Hopefully my dogs will become better at guarding as they mature more.  I'm sure the previous owner wasn't very knowledgable, she did say it was an accident but who really knows.  Indie will be getting spayed very soon.  I also didn't take into account that she is about 20lbs underweight too.  I am slowly getting some weight on her.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 7, 2019)

Glad it helped.


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