# Keeping expenses down



## savingdogs (Aug 30, 2009)

Hi! New to goats here. Question: Does anyone out there want to give me tips on keeping expenses down?
We have plenty of natural forage (too much) but plan to supplement with grass hay in the summer and alfalfa in the winter in a goat pen which preexisted on our property. 
Also grain as needed, and we seem to have access to good feed stores in my area. I am not asking about that.

Rather, in what other ways can I keep expenses down with worming, minerals, supplements, etc.? Who has the best prices on goat supplies or should I depend on my local feed stores? We have gotten babies at this point so I'm not looking at milking our nubian/nigerian mixes for a couple of years or having to worry about birthing/breeding expenses for quite awhile either. They are already disbudded and the male is a wether, and they have their vaccines and tatoos for 4H. We acquired them from a helpful 4H family we met at a local county fair and believe we are getting extremely healthy and friendly individuals.

My husband and I are interested in sustainable living as much as possible and are interested in things such as what cover crops to plant in our cleared areas and other ways of keeping them naturally healthy. 

Suggestions for additional reading or links to websites would be welcome!
New goat mom and super excited!


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## freemotion (Aug 30, 2009)

Learning to do everything yourself is the best tip.  If you can give an injection, you can worm very cheaply.  Don't save on your mineral supplement, though, buy the best.

You probably don't need to supplement with hay for most of the year if your forage is plentiful and good.  That is the easiest place to save.   I just feed hay to confined animals at night, and to everyone when the weather is stormy all day.

I use whole grains and lactoferment and sprout them to increase the food value and protein content.  Barley mostly, some oats and sunflower seeds.  That saves a fair amount over the year.  Whole grains are about half the price of commercial feeds.

I bought a good scythe and cut some of my own hay.  I learned the first year with my scythe a bit about goat psychology.  I bought it because I couldn't get my pasture mowed for a reasonable price here in the suburbs, and with a horse and two pygmies, it was being taken over by four-foot-tall goldenrod.  So I mowed it down with the scythe, let it dry, and decided it would make good bedding, since the animals had no interest in it.

The goats stayed in the barn for almost two weeks eating that goldenrod hay!  Silly beasts!

So now I mow and put up all the hay.  With two dairy-type goats now, they top all the goldenrod and are keeping the pasture quite nicely.  But the homemade hay really takes a big stress off my budget.  I buy alfalfa hay to supplement that now.

Bedding is another big expense that is a little more controllable.  I buy good shavings for urine absorption, and let the wasted hay become the top layer of bedding.  I also fill my stalls up to three feet deep in leaves in the fall if I can get them when they are nice and dry, and let the bedding build up over the winter for warmth here in cold New England.  A pain to clean in the spring, but the top layer is nice and clean and dry, and the composting deep litter provides some warmth in the sub-zero weather.  I learned this by watching them nap on the manure pile to catch some heat.  After years of caring for horses professionally and being very proud of my spotless stalls with white shavings, this took some doing for me, not to keep the stalls spotless in the winter.  Being happy with a clean top layer was tough the first year, but the benefits to the animals were worth it, and it works with my set up.  And the compost is lovely for the gardens and pasture.

I know you were not asking about food and such, but it really is the best place to save.  Buy the best of the other things, they are not the place to skimp.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 30, 2009)

Goats are costly little creatures!!
Goats need alfalfa year round.
They need goat loose minerals year round.
They need a good grain year round.
You'll have to give cd/t vaccine every 6 months.
Anything less and you set them up just to barely survive. 

If you wanted easy or cheap, a goat is not what you are after!! Sorry to be blunt, but I would be telling a tall tail if I said you could cut many corners.


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## freemotion (Aug 30, 2009)

Well, after having horses for decades, I think goats are easy and cheap!   Two of my girls get no grain or alfalfa, other than the little bit of hay that they can scrounge.  They are fat little pygmy-x's.  I am big on hybrids, they tend to be tougher than the purebreds.  My dairy girl paid for herself a while ago, and is paying for her feed, easily.

Fencing and housing is another matter altogether!


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## Aped (Aug 31, 2009)

Goats are a lot hardier than most people in this country think they are. Why do you think they are kept around the world and pretty the most common livestock in most 3rd world countries, well except for maybe poultry. They'll eat any kind of forage, you can keep them on almost any terrain, and they don't require a lot of space.

I've just recently started with goats and it did cost me a little bit of money up front to buy their grain, supplies, and the goats themselves but now that I have them I feel that they one of the cheapest animals I've ever owned. I have 4 goats right now and they hardly eat hay when they have a enough time to forage. They get about 2 cups of grain a day as a herd, so a 1/4 cup each am and pm. I am still on their first bags of feed after having them for almost 2 months. I am only on their 3rd bale of hay since i got them as well. Minerals aren't something I need to purchase often for them, the same would go for vaccines. I'm sure feed cost will increase in the winter as they will be getting more hay, not grain since too much grain is no good and also if I have any lactating females my feed costs will increase but really goats are very low cost and low maintenance to keep but that is up to the owner.


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## freemotion (Aug 31, 2009)

I keep the feed tub that goes on my milking stand in a corner of the kitchen.  Into that goes every possible veggie and fruit trimming that my girl might enjoy.   I even fermented all the cucumber scraps, seeds and peels, from making salsa, and have two gallons of the stuff to add to her food a bit at a time.  I plan to make her a batch of sauerkraut from the cabbage cores, which I will run through the food processor and ferment alongside our sauerkraut, this will be a great source of vitamin c and probiotics for her all winter.  

Nothing is wasted here!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2009)

The two most expensive parts of goats, IMO, are feed and medicine..  

As for feed, you're pretty much looking at hay and grain.  

If you have browse and/or graze (taller than 8-10") available, you can always just supplement hay and grain as needed, starting with hay.  Make sure they have good, fresh, loose mineral available at all times, and as someone else said -- don't skimp here!  

As for meds, deworming is expensive..  If you keep good mineral out and keep their noses off the ground, you can usually go longer at a stretch between deworming.  When you do deworm, deworm each goat as needed -- not the entire herd.  Use the FAMACHA system...not only will it save you money, it will also help delay the problem of anthelmintic-resistant worms on your farm.

Beyond that...cull hard.  Culling may actually be the most beneficial tool to someone who's really looking to cut expenses.

If you find that maybe 90% of your herd gets along well on the available graze and browse with the occasional worming, but perhaps 10% get thin or wormy or need some extra help, send those 10% down the road and replace them with goats that get along on what you're giving.

That's the best I can tell ya.


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## trestlecreek (Aug 31, 2009)

You really have to watch the fresh veggies!! That is a disaster waiting to happen. My chickens will stay far away from a cucumber and for cabbage, you are asking for bloat in a horrible way.

Yes, you do not have to feed a lot to goats if you just want them to "get by" out there.

I have been back grounded to raise very well conditioned animals. Goats w/maximum muscling will lead healthier lives meaning less money the producer has to put out for medicine/vet bills. In the long run, the good feed saves a lot of $$ in the end.

I started out in the beginning just giving the goats a little here and there thinking they would not cost me a lot, but with time, I learned that you have to really feed them a lot of good stuff if you expect good things to come from them.


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## rebecca100 (Aug 31, 2009)

Wow freemotion-I like your ideas!  I heard of sprouting for more nutrition, but never thought of it for goats! and I want to learn to ferment.    I like the idea of leaves for bedding too. Hmmm.....  got me thinking.


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## Beekissed (Aug 31, 2009)

I agree that culling a herd~ be it goats, sheep, cows, or chickens~ is one of the most beneficial acts you can perform for good herd health and for longevity of your enterprise.  Think longterm if you are wanting to avoid extra expenses.  

I really don't believe that one has to go high dollar on meds and grains to turn out superior stock.  Wise management and common sense go a long ways towards healthy stock and most of it doesn't cost a lot.  

This is my first year with sheep but I've already researched and implemented a more natural~and cheaper~ way to nurture health and growth.  Choosing a breed that is naturally resistant to parasites and that does well on grass and browse is the first and best step. 

My ewes were commercially de-wormed after birth and have not been treated since then~except with soap.  They are now 6 months old and are thriving on grass and browse, fruits and veggies, and the occasional treat of feed with BOSS.  The Katahdin/St. Croix cross helps this breed in parasite resistance and also enables them to thrive well in hot or cold climates, on grass or browse.  

Where my sheep came from, the man grains a lot and uses all chemical de-wormers and keeps his sheep in the barn from fall until late spring, early summer.  I would put my sheep's physical gain and conditioning up against any ewe of the same age in his flock.  Actually, they appear to be much healthier and more sleekly muscled.


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## freemotion (Aug 31, 2009)

I can't imagine that a cup or so of cut up veggies for a doe who is used to them and lives on fresh pasture will be a problem.  All things in moderation!  And adding fermented foods daily is the same as giving probiotics in each meal....no, better, because they are live, not dehydrated.


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## savingdogs (Sep 1, 2009)

Well these are wonderful ideas! 

Anyone want to share the names of their favorite wormer and why? That sounds like that will be one of my expenses to watch. I've read you need to change around wormers, anyone want to share their regimen?

How about what vaccine is needed, what the label should read and how often are you giving it? I will NOT be traveling anywhere with this herd nor acquiring any new ones. They are currently vaccinated. 

Also, what brand of minerals is "the best" that everyone here is recommending? 

It is hard to think of culling my herd at this point, as I'm just acquiring it! I'm getting three weanlings, two females and a wether, from a 4H family I met at the local county fair. They are nubian mixed with nigerian dwarf/pygmy. Disbudded and the boy is already a wether. 
Goal was first for them to eat the brush, (much) later for the females to give us milk to make goat cheese after finding a mini-nubian buck out there we can "visit". Probably keep a female every year and sell whatever other offspring to keep our numbers down. We also live far out in the country and would like to have a local dairy source such as my own back yard. Our home is extremely hilly and thick with brush, trees and blackberry, we live on a mountaintop in the Cascades in Washington state. We are hoping they eat their heads off and were assurred these particular babies like blackberries.

I'm not expecting my goats to fend for themselves even if they survive that way in third world countries, I am just interested in sustainable living and learning ways to keep costs down. We had wonderful housing/fencing existing on the property but would like to know what has worked well for folks in directing goats to eat specific targeted areas outside, or is it easiest to just bring it to them?

I'm wondering as well what cover crops I can plant that the goats will later enjoy that are a good value nutritionally as well that may have worked well for folks. I'd like to sow cover crops in the areas the goats hopefully clear out, so that I have something good growing in those areas for them to eat in the future. But not blackberry. We realize we have to help mow down the older canes, etc. 

Thanks for the good ideas, I'm hear to learn and economize, not let my goats "barely survive." We believe in good nutrition and proper veterinary care, etc. and want to find the least expensive ways to attain this. 

I'm not quite understanding this fermenting idea...you let veggies rot before giving them? With my chickens I've learned NOT to give anything rotten so this goes against the grain. How does this benefit their digestion? Are there scraps they should not have? 
I must admit my chickens take care of just about everything except scraps from onions and potato peels which they cannot have.

Thank you again, this is a wonderful forum!


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## freemotion (Sep 1, 2009)

Fermenting and rotting are not the same thing, I assure you!  Some examples of familiar fermented foods that you probably eat are yogurt (fermented milk) and sauerkraut.  Before the days of large-scale commercially-produced and transported foods, pickled foods were fermented.

I simply use a glug of whey from draining kefir (fermented milk) but you can use whey from draining yogurt and the whey from mesophillic-process cheesemaking.  It adds a big inoculation of lactic-acid-producing good bacteria, which speeds up the fermentation process.  I add this to the first soak of my grains, and let it sit at room temp for 24 hours.  Then I rinse it twice a day, and start the next batch at least 24 hours before the previous batch is used up.

For small amounts, like a quart and a half, I use my kitchen colander and leave it on a small bucket that I use for the soaking in a corner of my kitchen.  For larger amounts (the hens eat a lot more in the winter) I use a series of buckets in the cellar in which I've drilled holes for drainage, one without holes for the first soak.  In the cooler winter weather, I rinse once a day.  

As long as the grain was not harvested in wet weather and dried using heat, it will sprout.  Even if I get a bag that won't sprout well, it is lacto-fermented, which increases its nutrient value.  Sprouting shoots the protein way up! 

If I get a batch that goes moldy (very rare!!) I toss it in the trash.

Here is a very active thread on ss about fermenting veggies:  http://www.sufficientself.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2652


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## trestlecreek (Sep 1, 2009)

Three goat mom-thanks for clarifying your intentions! 
For a cover crop,  I would try rotating your pastures. Most pastures will grow over and provide the great forage you need if you let it grow out before budding. That is when you let them back in there to eat. I'm not sure I would fool with planting anything when a good mix is probably what you may have growing out there.
Freemotion-the fermentation idea is interesting. Would you be able to find some information from a university or veterinarian that talks more about using this and how to use this for goats? Fermentation is a form of rotting. It may be controlled rotting, but honestly, a lot of veggies can be toxic to goats just fresh; so I would be cautious on this one...

We give cd/t every 6 months. The diseases covered are not brought to the farm through traffic. These diseases are in everyone's dirt.

I have found that it takes very little goat feed to sustain a goat if you have good hay and forage out there. My goats are on free-feed(meaning they get all the grain plus a little more than they can eat at each feeding) and that ends up to be around 1/2 cup 2 times a day per goat here.  I feed very little grain, but that is because they have a good pasture and hay source. With alfalfa hay, they do not require a lot of hay and they eat it all.
You can find out what works by building them up on the hay/grain. You watch condition and as they start to get fat, you then cut back on the grain to get the amount they really need. I'm sure if you build up to free-feed, you will find like I did that they do not require much.


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## freemotion (Sep 1, 2009)

Sorry, I doubt you will find any ag university that will study ways to reduce dependence on commercially mixed feeds!  The USDA's job is to create markets, not to save money for the consumer.  I do my own research on people foods (www.westonapricefoundation.org has influenced my thinking quite a bit) and see how I can apply this to my critters.  I am not afraid to do some careful experimenting and watch closely.  I have seen some great  things happen.  

For example, an older mare started putting weight on when I switched her from commercial senior mix to whole grains, lacto-fermented.  We are talking about a cup twice a day, that is it.  I believe it was mostly about the twice daily dose of probiotics.  Her condition was amazing.

When I rescued my currently lactating doe last year, she was pregnant and frighteningly thin.  She barely had the energy to walk.  I couldn't get enough food into her to get her condition up fast enough without her getting "dog poo."  But when I started lacto-fermenting and sprouting her grains, I quickly learned how much she could tolerate when the grains were at each stage.  She is sleek and sassy and will actually gallop if she feels the need to chase another goat now.  And no dog poo.

We are brainwashed into thinking we are too ignorant to balance our own diets and our animals diets.  We are only ignorant if we choose to be.  I choose knowlege, and am always hungry for more.  

I'll give you a classic example.  It has been a few years that I have been feeding my hens whole grains....barley, oats, and corn (can't get wheat in the Northeast without paying a ridiculous price.)  I still have "knowlegable" people tell me I will kill my flock this way!  When I tell them how long it has been, they look at me blankly and say nothing.  I don't understand a mind with so little curiosity that questions don't even come up in the face of evidence.

Sorry, in a ranting mood for some reason!   

ETA:  Fermenting is when good bacteria are present in large numbers.  Rotting is when bad bacteria are working, and these will make us sick.  If we are healthy, we have an average of FOUR POUNDS of good bacteria in our guts at all times.  This is helping to ferment our food and make the nutrients bioavailable....when the bad bacteria are present in larger numbers, our food rots and poisons us.  Dysbiosis is an example of this.   In goats, it is a bit different, but essentially the same principle applies.  The good bacteria used in fermenting is the same thing you buy when you buy probiotics, except with fermented veggies, you are offering live bacteria, with probiotics, they are dehydrated and most of them don't survive to help the animal, so it is more of a crap shoot.  Pun intended!


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## trestlecreek (Sep 1, 2009)

We're all afforded the right to rant every now and then!!

It does sound like some of these ideas may be working well for you-that's great!

Goats are though a whole other beast when it comes to digestion.

Probiotics are good, I do not doubt their uses, but the ones we buy are made in strictly regulated environments. They have been and are tested to ensure quality.

Please don't take offense to my questioning for evidence. I'm questioning the use, not you!! When I feed something to an animal, I like to see scientific evidence.


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## helmstead (Sep 1, 2009)

Aped said:
			
		

> Goats are a lot hardier than most people in this country think they are. Why do you think they are kept around the world and pretty the most common livestock in most 3rd world countries, well except for maybe poultry. They'll eat any kind of forage, you can keep them on almost any terrain, and they don't require a lot of space.


This comment, I hear _all the time_, and it makes my skin crawl.  The goats you'll find in the US are NOT the goats you find in a 3rd world country...they are, for the most part, developed breeds bred out of their 'natural' state.  Perhaps you can buy a brush goat and expect it to do well without much help...but it will not produce like our domesticated breeds for any purpose.

While the idea of creating a naturally resistant and thrify herd is a noble one, taking today's stock and getting to that point is a big undertaking which will require extensive culling and contain high mortality rates - for a good decade most likely.  I suppose the means is less important than the end to some...but not to me.

For me, keeping cost down means avoiding the vet...which I do through the best husbandry I can offer.  I bid out our hay orders, and set up a deal with a feed dealer.  I do my best to eliminate wasted hay and feeds...shop around for supplies to get the best deals.  Cutting corners anywhere else will cost us money in the long run.

LOL and yeah, goats are WAY cheaper than horses!  hehe...my horse hobby has always been a money pit...so  the goats, in comparison, are no big deal (esp back when we only had like 10 of them, they were barely a blip on the radar).


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## Beekissed (Sep 1, 2009)

> While the idea of creating a naturally resistant and thrify herd is a noble one, taking today's stock and getting to that point is a big undertaking which will require extensive culling and contain high mortality rates - for a good decade most likely.  I suppose the means is less important than the end to some...but not to me.


I agree with the first part of this statement but fail to understand the part about high mortality rates or the means being less important than the end to some folks if they take this route.  

Culling to improve one's herd merely means monitoring growth, parasite and disease resistance, and good birthing and mothering traits.  If one finds that a particular animal does not do well in any of these areas, this would be one I would cull. I don't understand where the high mortality rate sets in.  Actually, this method insures you don't have beasts who are sick and dying from worm infestations, liver flukes, difficult births, etc.  

 Instead of propping up an inherited poor immune system with meds and high protein feed, I would elect to sell that particular animal.  Who wants genetics that require costly intervention to sustain good condition?  If a doe or ewe have difficulty birthing, this is one to cull.  If they need constant de-worming to maintain good health, this one would go down the road to market also.  

By judicious culling to improve one's herd, over time, you can have a herd that is naturally healthy and meaty.  I find these means to be very important, as they do indeed yield a good end result.  

Now, on the other hand, if one wants to take the short cut of acquiring stock, feeding them up on expensive feed and bolstering their immune system with some high dollar meds and dewormers, just to turn out an end product that will bring the correct market price in the fastest way possible....I would call that a case of "the ends justifying the means". 

I'm curious...when did the word "noble" acquire negative connotations?  I'm proud that it is a noble undertaking to take the time...even a decade or more (what else did you have planned in that time?)...to create a herd of which to be proud.  One that consistently turns out offspring that require little vetting or medicinal intervention.  One that does well on the feed that God intended for them to consume...grasses.


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## helmstead (Sep 1, 2009)

There was no negative connotation given to the word 'noble'.  And if you don't get where the mortality rates will come from...well...OK.

I give up!  I'm sticking with fluffy threads, like newborn kids.  This stuff is like talking to a bunch of brick walls.  Waste of my time!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 1, 2009)

Three goat Mom said:
			
		

> Anyone want to share the names of their favorite wormer and why? That sounds like that will be one of my expenses to watch. I've read you need to change around wormers, anyone want to share their regimen?


If there's not a PhD track out there for deworming goats, there should be...an MS, at least.

Here's a primer, off the top of my head..

Ok, so there are three basic families of commercial deworming meds:

1) Benzamidazoles -- the "white" wormers; Safe Guard, Panacure, Valbazen, um...a couple others.

2) The 'ectins -- Ivomec, Cydectin, Eprinex, Dectomax, Double Impact, etc..  

3) Levamisole -- Levasole, Tramisol, Prohibit..  

Around here, the white wormers are all but useless against barberpoles (haemonchus contortus -- more on them later)  White wormers kill tapeworms, though, which other wormers don't..  We've got a bottle of Safe Guard on hand, just in case.  It's cheap enough.

As for the 'ectins, Ivermectin came out about 25 years ago.  It was the last 'new' class of wormer to be introduced, and -- IMHO -- it's fading for goats.  There are lots of generic ivermectins, and a few different types of 'ectin wormers (Cydectin is _moxid_ectin, for instance) and they all come in several different forms like pour ons, drenches, and injectables...  There's a wealth of knowledge (and opinions) out there on using the 'ectin family of wormers on goats, so I won't go into all of it here.  

I will say that, around here, folks typically use either Cydectin or Ivomec.  Just a few short years ago, Cydectin was considered to be the 'nuclear option,' as it were, and was known to turn a goat around in no time..  Just this summer, however, I know of several goats that died of parasite infestations even after having had round after round of Cydectin...again, overuse seems to be limiting its effect.

So, that basically leaves Levamisole.  Problem with Levamisole is that it's like hen's teeth these days...can't find it anywhere.  Seriously -- _nowhere._  The companies that make it for ag have pretty much stopped, and levamisole is in phase III trials for human health problems..  I'm hopeful that it'll start hitting the feedstores and vet supply houses again, but I'm not holding my breath.  

That said, if you can find a wormer -- any wormer...I don't care what animal it's supposed to be for -- _any wormer_ that contains levamisole, BUY IT.  Buy every bit of it you can get your hands on, because if the 'ectins go the way of the white wormers, we're in serious trouble.

Now...as for the "regimen."  Well, there really isn't one.  What you do is run periodic fecals and keep _your_ eye on _their_ eye membranes (FAMACHA) and worm as needed with an appropriate wormer.  If you see tapeworms, for instance, use a white wormer.  If you see anemia indicative of barberpoles and you just used a white wormer, try an 'ectin..  If you used ivermectin last time and the white wormers aren't working and you can't find levamisole...try a doramectin or moxidectin..  Keep it rolling as best you can..

Now...if you keep your goats on browse and/or rotated grazing areas, and if your goats are generally in good health, you may not have to worm very much at all...  Obviously, this is a really good strategy for controlling parasites!  Duh, right?  No brainer...

Well, you'd be surprised...  :/   

Anyway, something that's critically important to good health overall and especially in the battle against worms is to make sure your goats have access to a loose mineral that's appropriate for your area!  Trace minerals are crucial to proper immune system function, and a goat's own immune system is always the first line of defense against worms.  (A wormy goat is an immune deficient goat, one way or the other..  I'm of the personal opinion that the immune deficiencies almost always come first, but I'm sure some would disagree..)  More on minerals in a second..

That's enough for now, I think..  The key points are:

You only have three families of wormers; one is all but dead, another is fading, and the third may as well not exist.  Healthy goats on browse or rotated pasture and appropriate loose minerals don't need as much wormer anyway, so definitely shoot for that.  Run fecals, check FAMACHA, worm only as needed, and rotate wormers as best you possibly can.  

I think I should have just said that to begin with..  



			
				3gm said:
			
		

> How about what vaccine is needed, what the label should read and how often are you giving it? I will NOT be traveling anywhere with this herd nor acquiring any new ones. They are currently vaccinated.


Some vax every 6mo, some once a year..  Does should definitely be vaccinated a few weeks before they kid to pass the antibodies on to the kids in their colostrum..  

Most folks give C/D-T, which is Clostridium Perfringens Types C & D, plus Tetanus (clostridium tetani).  Some folks give 7- or 8-way Clostridials like Covexin-8 and swear by them, though..  Your call.



			
				3gm said:
			
		

> Also, what brand of minerals is "the best" that everyone here is recommending?


Choose a mineral that compliments what your soil is lacking, especially if you're planning to graze and browse your goats and feed locally harvested hay..  

In my area, for instance, we're deficient in Zinc, Copper, Selenium, and a few other things..  Therefore, when I look for mineral, I like to make sure it's got plenty those minerals in a highly-bioavailable form..  Copper sulfate vs. copper oxide, for instance..  I'm actually picking up some custom-mixed mineral in the next few days...we'll just have to see how well the formula works and tweak it from there.


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## FlightsofFancy (Sep 1, 2009)

AGAIN.....this all boils down to.....wait let me copy from another thread...
_So we have to manage our heards according to our *location and our goals*. Some goats are only for lawn mowers. Some are very expensive show prospects. Some are family milkers. Each one of these goats will and should be managed differently._

Sounds like you might want to milk with a nigi nubi cross. Different diets will yield higher milk. So you have decide how valuable that milk is (it's like gold around my house) and maybe it's worth a bit extra feed in the winter. 

I have found with all my animals that you will either spend the money on the front end or the back end. Meaning: if you cut too many corners you just _ might_ cause the loss of an animal's life. To me that is not only a loss with a dollar sign, but a loss to the heart. 

Knowledge about your breed, the health issues in your climate and how to proactively handle them is your best "double your money back coupon!!"


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## freemotion (Sep 1, 2009)

Bee, I so totally agree with you!  If more people bred for hardiness rather than for spots or color or....or....or....whatever in the looks department, it wouldn't be an issue.  That is why I like my rescued goats....the two rescues are my hardiest girls, my two purchased goats give me a little trouble.  The benign neglect, probably over generations, culled to hardiness.  Not the way to create hardiness, but there it is.  

My plan is to create a line of good milkers and dual purpose goats with the self-sufficient homestead-type person in mind....mainly, me.  Hardiness is critical, in all departments.  Same with my hens and soon-to-be turkeys....they must survive without medicated feed, number one.  If they need antibiotic intervention, so be it.  But it will not be fed prophylactically.  I am not one to endorse big pharma or the food giants in any way.

This is the ultimate way to keep expenses down over the long haul.   The original question leaned towards self-sufficiency, the way I read it.  

I have been involved with the horse show world for decades, and I see two classes of horses within most breeds.  Those that win in-hand (looks) and those that win in performance.  This is not right in my mind.  Handsome is as handsome does.  I have no desire to show for conformation with any animal, and never will, for just this reason.

I don't care so much if a goat has a perfect udder as a two year old.  What does that udder look like at ten?  That is what is important to me.  Performance over a lifetime.

Ooops, ranting again!!!


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## lupinfarm (Sep 1, 2009)

Trestle, my two girls were raised on fresh veggies pretty much. I agree with the typical bloating veggies, cabbage and the like. My chickens LOVE cucumber, actually, my chickens LOVE everything lol. 

I give Hermione and Cissy carrot slices.


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## kimmyh (Sep 1, 2009)

The best way to save money on goats is to do the right thing at the front end. Feed right, provide immunizations specific to your herd and area, and be consistent. A goats rumen takes 2.5 weeks to build the bacteria necessary to properly digest a new food, so keep your feed program consistent. A goat is not a human, and while decomposed food may be useful to a human, it can be deadly to a goat.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes, that is very true Kimmyh.

Lupinfarm, as I keep saying(I am a broken record), you can only mess around with their diet so much before you have a problem. Feed them food for goats. Goat grain, hay, and browse. Let it go at that.
Just take what I have said several times as a fair warning. I'm not posting to be an @@*&, I'm posting to help.
If these goats get sick; think back to my warnings here.

None of this information I have posted is rocket science or something I dreamed up as I played with the goats for a few years. This is just how it is.

(calming down now  )


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## savingdogs (Sep 1, 2009)

Perhaps I should post my plans for feeding these goats we are keeping expenses down on and end the food debate. 

The person we bought them from described this regimen which we intend to follow:
Nutrena goat food twice a day
Grass hay in summer fed twice a day while in their enclosure. (locally grown)
Minerals and baking soda both offered free choice. I realize now I will have to choose minerals for my area
Plus
All the browsing I can manage. We live in a forest of red alder, big leaf maple and western hemlock. Himalayan blackberry heavily infests much of my county and I have a whole hill of it.  Some people in my area even rent out their goats for blackberry removal, there is such a problem with this invasive berry. Our place certainly is a good example of it. I don't plan to rent out my goats however, too scary to have some stranger caring for them!!!!

In the winter when we have heavy snow, I was going to keep with the above but switch to Alfalfa hay and feed more of it as there would be little browsing. This was the suggestion of the 4H person from whom we are purchasing the goats and what these goats are used to. I'm the kind of person who likes to know all the opinions and reasoning behind it however so I found your responses very interesting although varied. 

Thank you so much for answering my questions regarding worming and vaccination. I will just have to depend on my veterinarian to tell me which wormer after doing a fecal I guess and also the best vaccine for my area. 

Our intent is to indeed milk the goats, that was part of why they are here and our goal to be more self-sustaining. 
Anyone have experience with mini-nubians and their particular health issues? Mine are actually 1/2 nubian and the other half is pygmy/nigerian mix with a heavier amount of nigerian, probably 3/4. So certainly not pedigreed animals. They impressed us as being very healthy and extremely cute and a good size. One female is a great 4H prospect for our 13-year old son so they are multi-purpose here on our mini farm.
Thank you again for all your suggestions, I welcome all your varied opinions as I'd like to know what works for people and why. 
I think that is the beauty of this kind of forum. I would think our different environments would also have direct bearing on management as well.
For those of you that are worried, I don't think I'd have time to try the veggie fermenting thing, I'll leave that to someone more interested in creating their own food for their animals. I hopefully will be too busy milking and making cheese and collecting eggs! 
Arin


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## freemotion (Sep 2, 2009)

Fermented foods are not decomposed!  Sheesh!  Do some research!  Google!  I am talking about giving 2-3 ounces of fermented veggies a day, not a bucketful.  I view them as a supplement, not the mainstay of the diet.

The grains, however....there is PLENTY of research on the value of lactofermenting and/or sprouting grains.  Grains are not the natural diet of goats or any ruminant.  So if you are feeding grains, you are already making a departure from the goat's natural diet.  

I would never recommend that anyone make any major changes in any area of their lives based on a post or two on any forum.  Use these discussions to get ideas and then do your own research.   

Goats in nature take a bite of this and a bite of that, rarely spending much time at any one plant.  Goats raised in captivity with little opportunity to browse naturally eat greedily, snarfing down the food as fast as they can before the greedy goats around them get it.  Even confined to a stall, they will usually continue to eat at this greedy pace, even without competition.  So we have to dole out the variety for them and set the pace for them.

Three goat mom, you can do a lot of things in a sustainable and self sufficient way without your goats keeling over.  All of my critters have thrived on the decomposing food they've been getting here.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Sep 2, 2009)

i'm with the 'goats are cheap an easy' crowd... housing for me was the most expensive but only b/c i had to build out something for them. i only feed grain to my dairy gals on the stand - then it was 'get out there and free range 'cuz its free!'.... except for one sassy gal who'd only eat from the feeder. so i went out and cut a bunch of stuff down (like freemotion except i did it old school with my handy clippers) and that kept 'em fat and happy. we supplemented the dairy gals with some alfalfa. 

i also used the Hoegger (sp?) herbal wormer. i had to worm one of them in spring with hartguard that i got from the feed store, but then gave the rest the herbal wormer once a week. i cant believe how well it worked!

one thing i wouldnt skimp on is good milking tools - a good bucket and strainer (the big one). or fencing - go for electric or prepare for frustration.

one other thing i'd pitch in is that you'll get a million different answers and you kinda need to sort out what works for you. for instance my neighbors have show goats (meat) and we are at total ends of the spectrum of care and feeding. 

when i was stumped i called around to some goat breeders near me and asked what worked for them - then i did that. regional advice helps as different regional soils/graze have different requirements. 

good luck!


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## trestlecreek (Sep 2, 2009)

Arin,
Sounds like you have a good plan.
Just be careful when you are feeding grass hay instead of the alfalfa to your bucks/wethers. They need extra calcium to offset the phosphorous in their grain to avoid urinary stones. Maybe you could find a grass/alfalfa mix?

Miniature mixed breed goats are known for their productivity and vigor. Congratulations on your new goats. If you ever are interested in joining a breed association, you could check out www.nmga.net (National Miniature Goat Association). This is a registry that promotes the breeding of productive miniatures of all heritage.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> The grains, however....there is PLENTY of research on the value of lactofermenting and/or sprouting grains.  Grains are not the natural diet of goats or any ruminant.  *So if you are feeding grains, you are already making a departure from the goat's natural diet.*


Everybody should take heed of that last part..  Goats didn't survive millions of years because humans fed them from a sack.

Frankly, I'd defy anyone to take a good, hard, objective look at concentrated feed and not find as many pitfalls as their are benefits..  Acidosis, bloat, urinary calculi, coccidiosis (from stepped-in feeders), obesity, cost...the list goes on.  Considering the damage a goat can do to itself should it get into the grain unsupervised, it's clear that the stuff's a wee bit dangerous to even keep on hand!  That says something, IMO..

At this point, we barely consider grain to be food....it's more of a _tool_, and mostly for _our_ benefit..  We feed only enough grain to get them out of the way while we're changing water and throwing hay, or to keep them occupied in the stanchion.  That's about it.  

They get a tiny bit once a day, _if that_, and some are STILL fatter than they should be going into breeding season...


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## Aped (Sep 2, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> There was no negative connotation given to the word 'noble'.  And if you don't get where the mortality rates will come from...well...OK.
> 
> I give up!  I'm sticking with fluffy threads, like newborn kids.  This stuff is like talking to a bunch of brick walls.  Waste of my time!


You can't exactly say that people are doing things wrong because they are not doing things the way you do them. Many paths will take you to the same place.


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## savingdogs (Sep 2, 2009)

Okay, what is a tiny bit of grain? 

Our goats are three months old and are nubian/nigerian dwarf/pygmy mixes (one wether, two doelings.

We watched the person selling them to us feed them what looked to be a very small amount, 1/2 cup each. 

Nutrena was the brand she suggested. 
Thanks!


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## kimmyh (Sep 2, 2009)

Fermentation/sprouting is exactly what we try to avoid in grain products. There are many types of harmful bacteria that are kept at bay through the steaming and rolling of grains, to extend shelf life. Adding moisture/fermentation/decomposition is a great way to reintroduce/cause bacteria to grow. Goats are not pigs, pig can handle fermented grains, goats have a very delicate digestive system, and supplementing this and that table scrap is counter productive to a healthy herd-IMHO.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

I've never used Nutrena before, so I went and looked it up ...  

"*Limited copper* to help minimize risk of copper toxicity"..."*Reduce hay* as kids come on feed"..."*Feed* to growing/finishing kids *as the sole ration*"...."*Limited hay *(1/4 to 1/2 lb. per head per day) *may be fed*"

Good Lord..  That's some of the worst goat advice I've heard in a LONG TIME..  They didn't bother to post the bag tag so we could take a look at what's in it, nor even the protein content...nothing.

Your primary challenge right now, IMO, is the wether..  Does can have more concentrated feed in their diet than wethers..  Since there is a wether in your herd, though, you'll need to think about limiting grain as it can lead to urinary calculi -- even if it's 2:1 Ca w/ added ammonium chloride.

I'd feed good alfalfa hay free choice since they're growing, but beyond that, only as much grain as their body condition dictates.  Or, enough to keep them 'trained' to grain as a tool.


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## ()relics (Sep 2, 2009)

I feed showmaster show goat developer made by nutrena...It has added decox(deconoquinate) for coccidiosis prevention...All my kids are weaned between 60 and 100 days then get showmaster for 8 weeks...I used to only give it to the wethers that I planned on showing but now I feed it to all the kids that I am keeping....wethers and doelings....Its not cheap, which goes away from the topic of the thread, but it builds meaty goats...and that gives them the edge in the show ring or in your pasture.

http://www.showmasterfeeds.com/Products/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=68


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## lupinfarm (Sep 2, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I've never used Nutrena before, so I went and looked it up ...
> 
> "*Limited copper* to help minimize risk of copper toxicity"..."*Reduce hay* as kids come on feed"..."*Feed* to growing/finishing kids *as the sole ration*"...."*Limited hay *(1/4 to 1/2 lb. per head per day) *may be fed*"
> 
> ...


You know, I've had that issue with horse feeds to... My Purina Horse Chow says to feed 4.75lbs of feed as sole ration, and it can REPLACE the hay/roughage ration of a horse. This makes sense almost a little for a high performing animal kept in confinement with no access to pasture at all (which there are many, unfortunately) but for a regular horse? whatttt?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 2, 2009)

lupinfarm said:
			
		

> My Purina Horse Chow says to feed 4.75lbs of feed as sole ration, and it can REPLACE the hay/roughage ration of a horse. This makes sense almost a little for a high performing animal kept in confinement with no access to pasture at all (which there are many, unfortunately) but for a regular horse? whatttt?


It makes perfect sense for Purina to put that on a bag, given that they manufacture the product.  

If I owned a feed mill, I'd tell you the same thing.


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## Beekissed (Sep 2, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Everybody should take heed of that last part..  Goats didn't survive millions of years because humans fed them from a sack.


I would have to agree with this.  When I was growing up everyone seemed to have a goat.  They were never offered grain, only graze and then hay in the winter, just like the cows.  They may get a handful of whole corn while in stanchion, but more likely not.  These goats produced because they were bred to produce, not because they were _grained_ to produce.  

It was pretty common knowledge back then that goats would and could eat just about anything and they were dual purpose animals to homesteaders.  Need a hillside cleaned off of multi-flora roses...and need milk?  Goats were used.  

The more I read about how delicate goat's rumens are the more it makes me laugh.  Maybe the goats folks are moddle-coddling now days need all that special food, de-wormers and vaccinations, but back in my time they thrived well and for many years on just plain fair and soapy dishwater every now and again for deworming.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 2, 2009)

Goat will live w/barely nothing to eat. It happens all of the time. 
They will not thrive this way. Big difference between thriving and surviving.


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## freemotion (Sep 2, 2009)

tgm, did you expect such a debate when you asked your question?   This has been quite an entertaining thread! 

I'd better go give my goats a hug before they keel over from eating such a rotten diet.....oh, and tell Mya that she can't possibly be producing over 3 quarts a day six months into her lactation on crazy food.  She peaked at over a gallon.  She was knocking on death's door when I got her in late December.  Oh, and Ginger shouldn't be pushing 60 lbs of muscle at the tender age of five months.  No one told them they shouldn't be thriving! 

I enjoy a good debate.  But please disagree without being disagreeable.

I, too, have gasped in horror at things I've read and heard that other people were doing, but I went on a search for information to see if I could see their line of reasoning better.  Sometimes I even adjust my thinking.  Imagine that.


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## Beekissed (Sep 2, 2009)

Wow, Free!  You got a geyser on your hands....cap it off and sell the white gold!    Can you post some before and after pics of your rescued goat so we can see the difference?  I'm going to have to look into this fermenting thingy......


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## trestlecreek (Sep 2, 2009)

Yeah, now that is a great idea!
Let's start a thread with pictures of our goats stating the diet down below the picture. That way we have an idea of what is working for whom and how they achieved it.
I think to be appropriate, we need a top view, a side view, rear view and front view.


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## savingdogs (Sep 2, 2009)

Trestlecreek, as the originator of this thread, I whole heartedly agree, photos would be a wonderful fun addition to this discussion of economical diets. How about including what type of natural forage/pasture and natural foods growing in your area and how the goats have access as I suspect this could have bearing on why diets work better for some.

I live in a thickly forested Pacific Northwest mountaintop and I'm sure the natural forage here is different from say, folks in Denver or Texas or New York and also weather conditions. 
Fresh hay is also abundant here.
I do agree with Freemotion that this thread became more interesting than I thought and sparked much more debate than I supposed.

I must say that information from the Nutrena bag does not sound like what I had intended, I have not yet purchased any but would be using whatever grain for just a "tool" as suggested considering I'd only be feeding a cup or less a day. Anyone have favorite brands to suggest for me? I've heard Purina Goat chow is not necessarily popular. Remember I'm raising babies but I'm interested in adult diets as well.

I think we should agree to disagree and be happy so many folks have goats thriving under different conditions and diets. I've always believed moderation to be the key in most things so I am definetely keeping that in mind. 
Also looking for natural good health vs. barely surviving.....I think everyone posting here can agree on that.
TGM


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## beefy (Sep 3, 2009)

is it ok to give goats peashells?


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## Blackbird (Sep 3, 2009)

There is actually a product called Chaffhaye that uses fermentation. I've heard many good things about them and a lot of animals doing very well on it.

http://www.chaffhaye.com/index.php?page_name=splash

"This initiates an all natural fermentation in the bag which closely mimics the digestive process that occurs in the digestive tract of horses and livestock. The fermentation relies on the active participation of yeast, beneficial enzymes and fiber-digesting bacteria to "pre-digest" the feed by stripping out the nutrition from the plant fiber and breaking down relatively large blocks of nutrition into smaller, more readily digestible units. In the case of horses, the entire process facilitates greater digestion in the foregut where the bulk of proteins, fats, starches, vitamins and minerals are absorbed. By improving the digestion in the foregut, and by balancing the feed load across the entire digestive tract, the animal is able to absorb more energy, vitamins and minerals from Chaffhaye. For the ruminant, the bodies of the microbes involved in the fermentation represent a large source of high quality protein. So, the fermentation in Chaffhaye actually increases the available proteins for the ruminant."

Makes sense to me. Its kind of funny what people won't believe until they see a patent, government security label, or FDA (Food Destruction Association) label on it.

And people, and animals get fuller on less food when it is fermented, as fermentation enhances the food. I'm sure some simple Google searches can back this up. And of course, everything on the internet isn't true, but others have proved it to work and be true.


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## freemotion (Sep 3, 2009)

Cool, BB!  I've heard of this, years and years ago.  It is worth following your link just for the picture alone....that is an amazingly gorgeous picture of those ponies!


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## lupinfarm (Sep 3, 2009)

I fed chaffhaye to my horse, we called it haylage... He had heaves and it did wonders for him.


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## Beekissed (Sep 3, 2009)

Isn't all sileage just fermented grasses?  And the reason they ferment the grasses is to convert the glucose into starches?  Or the other way around?  

I like the idea of the pics!  It should also include if these animals are showlines or working lines.  There is a big difference in real animals and animals who are bred merely for looks and not for basic performance. 

 Show animals, I imagine, must be kept in peak physical shape and grooming and would not necessarily be a true reflection of the normal working dairy or meat goat.

Just like a glossy show horse would outclass a working trail horse if just judging by a picture, so must a show goat have a little more gloss than a working goat.  The real judge of fitness would, of course, be in the field....be it working or producing milk or meat.  

The real judge of diet would be in production, general health, vet bills for illnesses, receipts of meds bought to supplement their diets and the total cost yearly to maintain that animal in that particular condition.  This is a thread about keeping expenses down while keeping an animal healthy and fit, isn't it?


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## kimmyh (Sep 3, 2009)

I know a breeder who uses Chaffhay and the condition of her goats reflects the product-not ideal, there is no waste, but at what cost? Chaffhay is more expensive than traditional hay in my area, even if I became a wholesaler (I looked into when the product first came out). Chaffhay is NOT fermented, it is chopped alfalfa that is mixed with wet molasses and stored in an air tight bay of 50lbs.


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## freemotion (Sep 3, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Chaffhay is NOT fermented, it is chopped alfalfa that is mixed with wet molasses and stored in an air tight bay of 50lbs.


From their website:

"Chaffhaye is made with alfalfa or grass that is carefully selected and harvested at peak leafiness to maximize nutrients, palatability and digestibility. Within hours of harvest, while still fresh, the pasture is chopped, lightly misted with molasses and compressed into an air-tight bag. This initiates an all natural fermentation in the bag which closely mimics the digestive process that occurs in the digestive tract of horses and livestock. The fermentation relies on the active participation of yeast, beneficial enzymes and fiber-digesting bacteria to "pre-digest" the feed by stripping out the nutrition from the plant fiber and breaking down relatively large blocks of nutrition into smaller, more readily digestible units."


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## cmjust0 (Sep 3, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Chaffhay is NOT fermented, it is chopped alfalfa that is mixed with wet molasses and stored in an air tight bay of 50lbs.


Sounds like haylage or silage..  Anaerobic bacteria convert sugars to something else (acids, or starch, maybe, as someone suggested) while aerobic bacteria consume whatever oxygen was left after it was compacted.  When it's all done, the bacteria should either starve or suffocate and the whole pit (or bale, or bag, or whatever) should basically become sterile.  Which, of course, is why it doesn't rot or break down any further..

If it doesn't go just right, though, you just get moldy hay instead of silage.  To my knowledge, most cases of listeriosis in goats can be tied back to the consumption of moldy feed or hay.  

Listeriosis is something I've never had the misfortune of having to treat, nor do I wish to..  I have, however, seen a listeriosis survivor who was blind in one eye and -- as best we could figure -- was left without feeling in her face to the point that she literally dunked her muzzle up to the eyesockets in the water trough when she needed a drink.  I think she really couldn't feel the water, so she'd just keep putting her muzzle in the trough, ever so slowly, until she could actually guage the horizontal plane of the waterline with her one good eye.

Obviously, that's not something I want to mess around with. 

As such, I like for my hay to be nice and dry, personally..  Not leaf-shattering dry to the point of decreasing the quality, of course, but dry enough that I don't have to worry doing a 'pat down' to check each flake for white powder..


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## trestlecreek (Sep 3, 2009)

Beekissed,...yes, I agree, the type of work the goat does should be included with the picture. These goats should be getting much more feed to maintain condition compared to one that is dry/open/out of season.

We shouldn't be able to tell by a picture that an animal is being worked if it is being maintained appropriately.

Show animals will physical look more appealing due to correct confirmation, but correct body condition can be achieved on any animal regardless.


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## Blackbird (Sep 3, 2009)

Hey Kimmy. 

I never said it was cheap! Which is why people like Freemotion ferment their own food for their animals!

Too bad that breeder's animals weren't in good condition. I wonder what else she fed them and how she raised them.


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## kimmyh (Sep 3, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> I know a breeder who uses Chaffhay and the condition of her goats reflects the product-not ideal, there is no waste, but at what cost? Chaffhay is more expensive than traditional hay in my area, even if I became a wholesaler (I looked into when the product first came out). Chaffhay is NOT fermented, it is chopped alfalfa that is mixed with wet molasses and stored in an air tight bay of 50lbs.


Yes, because it is sealed in plastic it tends to ferment/break down. The real issue here is the lack of condition seen on farms that use this product as their hay source for goats. It is great for horses, but the does I have seen post kidding look like walking skeletons.


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## Kala (May 2, 2011)

I know this is an old thread, but very interesting for a new goat owner (such as myself) to see the different ways people raise their animals based on what they are keeping them for, their geographical area and just their own personal opinions.


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## savingdogs (May 2, 2011)

I'm glad you liked it, Kala, there is a lot of good information in this forum if you go searching for topics.


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## aggieterpkatie (May 3, 2011)

This is a pretty entertaining thread.  Funny that some people worry so much about feeding fermented feed.  As it was said late in the thread, silage and haylage/baleage is fermented and is probably the most common feed for dairy animals in this country.


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## Goatherd (May 3, 2011)

> and just their own personal opinions.


If everyone remembers these words, you can survive any forum!


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## Roll farms (May 3, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> > and just their own personal opinions.
> 
> 
> If everyone remembers these words, you can survive any forum!


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## savingdogs (May 3, 2011)

Very true! I find it very interesting to look back at this thread and realize how much I've learned here and on the internet forums in general about goats. A lot of information to sift through, but if you keep working at it you eventually find what works for you. I'm still in the process but it has been very helpful this whole time to have online friends ready to help!


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