# another hay question



## Birchhatchery (Jul 31, 2011)

i have  2 weather pymgmys and one buck pygmy and am getting either a boar doe or dairy do and that will be my herd i have been feeding them grass hay wich they waste more than eat it wich seems like a totaly waste of money to me so i bought a bail of alfalfa hay 75 percent alfafa the rest grass bout all we have around here or cheap grass/weedy hay wich they waste i put the alfalfa in it and they eat everythang stems and leaves even eat if off the ground so im thinkin that i should fill up my barn with alfalfa? i also feed purina noble goat feed once a day in the mourning i dont mesure it but they get about a pound of grain for all three goats wich isn;t much i dont think the buck normally eats more that the weathers unless i watch them and when im home they run the farm free and eat watever they want so it it ok to feed them the alfalfa?


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## DonnaBelle (Jul 31, 2011)

DL bought grass hay last year, and we ended up using it as bedding.  The goats refused to eat it.

Then I bought some Alfalfa and they scarfed it right up.  Right now they're getting brouse and pasture and a little grain in the evening before bedtime.

I know some goats eat grass hay, but not mine.

DonnaBelle


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## elevan (Jul 31, 2011)

I feed a 2nd or 3rd cutting mixed hay: grass/ alfalfa/ clover...my goats don't waste it.

Now, one time I had to settle for some bales of 1st cutting and a LOT of that got wasted.


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## Birchhatchery (Jul 31, 2011)

it a fact all goats waste some matter of hay but when i fed grass be a heap on the floor least with the alfalfa they eat more of it even tho their are some bigger stems on the ground anyone of any good boar or dairy breeders in indiana im lookin for a nanny i dont want to spend millions but i want a healthy goat


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## homesteadapps (Aug 1, 2011)

We see a lot more waste with the grasses too. The do like the clover and alfalfa. I've read that clover shouldn't be feed during breeding times, but we have never had trouble.


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## elevan (Aug 1, 2011)

homesteadapps said:
			
		

> We see a lot more waste with the grasses too. The do like the clover and alfalfa. I've read that clover shouldn't be feed during breeding times, but we have never had trouble.


The confusion with clover comes when "clover" is thrown out as if it's all the same...the problem with breeding times is not your everyday clover legume - it's with *alsike* clover...your red and white clover used in hay fields is fine.


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## Birchhatchery (Aug 1, 2011)

why do they say that?


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## elevan (Aug 1, 2011)

Birchhatchery said:
			
		

> why do they say that?


What?  The alsike clover and breeding time?
It's thought to cause abortions in horses.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

Be careful that any male goats, even wethers, don't get alot of protien. It can cause urinary tract problems and kill them. We took in a rescue goat that ended up with it. By the time I called the vet, it was too late. Poor guy. He was a nice goat. I feed a low protien pellets, not the 16% goat food. They don't need it and it will cause problems. I get the TSC "all stock" pellets. They love it and it's not liable to hurt them. Our one wether is about 14. He has eaten this same stuff since he was a baby. Guess it works! It's like 10 or 12%. I don't recall.

Seeings as they get low pellets, I don't mind giving them a mixed hay with some alfalfa in it.

Terry


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 1, 2011)

"What is It?
Urinary calculi or water belly is a common metabolic disease of male sheep and goats. The disease occurs when calculi (stones), usually comprised of phosphate salts, lodge in the urinary tract and prevent urination. Normally, phosphorus is recycled through saliva and excreted via feces in ruminants. High grain, low roughage diets decrease the formation of saliva and therefore increase the amount of phosphorus excreted in the urine. 

The primary cause of urinary calculi is feeding concentrate diets which are excessive in phosphorus and magnesium and/or have an imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. Lack of water and water sources that are high in minerals are also contributing factors."

qouted from: 

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/urincalc.html


other articles:
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06.html

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/stones.htm: an excellant resource for calculating the amount of ammonia chloride needed for treatment or prevention.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> "What is It?
> Urinary calculi or water belly is a common metabolic disease of male sheep and goats. The disease occurs when calculi (stones), usually comprised of phosphate salts, lodge in the urinary tract and prevent urination. Normally, phosphorus is recycled through saliva and excreted via feces in ruminants. High grain, low roughage diets decrease the formation of saliva and therefore increase the amount of phosphorus excreted in the urine.
> 
> The primary cause of urinary calculi is feeding concentrate diets which are excessive in phosphorus and magnesium and/or have an imbalance of calcium and phosphorus. Lack of water and water sources that are high in minerals are also contributing factors."
> ...


High proteins are not needed or good for them either. The vet called them cystals. Of which the poor guy had. He had been living in a 6'x6' pen, with a couple of other goats. They beat on him all the time, so he was happy to get out of there.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 1, 2011)

Terry said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
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That was very nice of you to rescue the goat, I am sure he was much happier during the time you had him. I just don't want you to keep on beleiving that high protein gave him UC.  There are many factors that is not one of them. yes, one can argue too much protein is not healthy, I believe it is around the 18% mark for goats. But giving them UC is not the reason why too much protein is unhealthy.  With your theory of protein causing UC, corn would be an excellant grain, since it is technically low in protein compared to other feed items, but however it has a very high phosphorus to calcium ratio and if not balanced out by things like alfalfa hay, which is high in calcium and very high in protein will increase the chances of UC.  In my opinion, you either miss understood the vet or he didn't do a very good job explaining the problems with feeding whethers grain. 

My point being a 12% protein grain is just as dangerous as a 16% protein grain if it doesn't have atleast twice as much calcium and phosphorus.


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## Terry (Aug 1, 2011)

Well you see. I'm not raising anything anymore, and it's been years. I do know, the years I did raise them that too high a protein was not good nor needed. If I recall correctly, the vet said the higher protein irritated the problem. He was a very nice guy and is still missed. He was half lamancha and half pygmy goat. Bigger than my pygmies and smaller than I've seen for Lamanachas.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 1, 2011)

Terry said:
			
		

> Well you see. I'm not raising anything anymore, and it's been years. I do know, the years I did raise them that too high a protein was not good nor needed. If I recall correctly, the vet said the higher protein irritated the problem. He was a very nice guy and is still missed. He was half lamancha and half pygmy goat. Bigger than my pygmies and smaller than I've seen for Lamanachas.


I understand, I beleive the concept of graining is understood differently these days, althoug it is still said that one should be careful about feeding too much grain to whethers that are intended for pets or a long life.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 1, 2011)

Birchhatchery said:
			
		

> i have  2 weather pymgmys and one buck pygmy and am getting either a boar doe or dairy do and that will be my herd i have been feeding them grass hay wich they waste more than eat it wich seems like a totaly waste of money to me so i bought a bail of alfalfa hay 75 percent alfafa the rest grass bout all we have around here or cheap grass/weedy hay wich they waste i put the alfalfa in it and they eat everythang stems and leaves even eat if off the ground so im thinkin that i should fill up my barn with alfalfa? i also feed purina noble goat feed once a day in the mourning i dont mesure it but they get about a pound of grain for all three goats wich isn;t much i dont think the buck normally eats more that the weathers unless i watch them and when im home they run the farm free and eat watever they want so it it ok to feed them the alfalfa?


I don't have the smaller breeds, but I beleive one of the problems you may see with feeding that much alfalfa is they may get too fat, .


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## Ms. Research (Aug 1, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Birchhatchery said:
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I don't have goats at all but I do have rabbits.  And one of the BIG things that I've read and was told by my Rabbit Vet, is not to give adult bunnies alfalfa.  Especially those who are neutered and to be pets.  Alfalfa does put on the pounds and having animals that are overweight brings more undue stress and sickness.   The only time I was told to give rabbits alfalfa was when they were babies (to put on weight) and lactating does (to help them keep producing milk).  

IMO, it sounds like you are giving them a variety and excellent diet now?  Why throw in alfalfa that could do more harm than good?


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## Goatmasta (Aug 1, 2011)

Actually Alfalfa is the perfect food for a miniature goat.  Just like with any other feed if they begin to get too fat(in all the years I have had goats only one has gotten fat on air), you don't feed them as much.  however, if you read my blog, I believe in using hay as more of a roughage and feeding "grain" (a quality pelleted goat feed) as a condition regulator.  There is no reason that you can not feed a quality feed to a Buck or a wether without harming the goat.  A "quality feed" is a must to do this successfully, and in my experience it is cheaper to feed a quality goat feed and a decent hay, than it is to feed Alfalfa.  Straight Alfalfa is not cheap.


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## Birchhatchery (Aug 1, 2011)

thats why i feed less than a pound of grain to 3 goats


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