# Just bought skinny milk cow. Help with feed pls



## freetodream (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi, I'm a newbie here but wondering if you all could help me and my inexperience   We just brought home our first milk cow last night and she's verrry skinny. Like bsc 1.5 as far as I can tell.  She's a 5yr old Guernsey and was fresh in March of this year.  She was at an organic dairy and being fed rolled barley, pasture and a little alfalfa at night.  She's milking about 4-5 gallons/day and also about 30 days bred and I'd like to keep her that way if possible.  I've had show horses for years so I'm fairly well versed on feeding them but I don't know what if anything is different about feeding a milk cow.  Obviously she needs to gain weight but I'm not sure the best way to do that safely.  She's not fond thus far of my grass/alfalfa mix hay so I bought some straight alfalfa today and so far she likes that much better.  I have COB as well and the feed store guy sold me some Purina Show Chow grower (apparently meant for steers but he said it's high energy and would work for me too) because he didn't have any dairy mix.  I'm open to any and all suggestions I just want to do this right lol. Thanks for any help I appreciate it.
Kjersti


----------



## Wolf-Kim (Jul 23, 2009)

Can't help on the feeding, but I would love to see pics of her. It may help those more experienced in this area to evaluate it themselves. She may not be as bad as she seems. 

-Kim


----------



## freetodream (Jul 23, 2009)

Ok thanks here's a picture of her this morning. hope this works 
http://s115.photobucket.com/albums/n293/freetodream/?action=view&current=0723090836.jpg


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 23, 2009)

Your link didn't work but, I think I have it corrected except they say they are doing a little work right now and your image will be back soon. Use the IMG code when posting to the forum

As for feeding her, feed a good quality hay and grain. Go slow with the grain so as not to over do it. I'd start with 6 pounds twice a day.


----------



## freetodream (Jul 23, 2009)

Ok this time worked. So is she too skinny then or am I just not used to seeing bones lol?
Will the show chow beef steer feed be ok till I get some dairy mix or is plain COB better?


----------



## jhm47 (Jul 23, 2009)

I'm not an expert on dairy, but to my eye, she's very thin.  I would think that the show ration would be fine for her.

One of the first things I'd do is to worm her.  Be sure to control external parasites, including flies.  Fighting flies can sap a lot of energy from a cow.

Another thing---  Is her stool very loose?  Runny, almost like colored water?  If so, she may have some type of infection in her digestive tract.

Actually, I'm very surprised that she cycled, let alone getting bred.  With her BCS, they don't usually cycle.

Whatever you do, don't skimp on the feed.  She needs to gain weight, and it's hard to do when milking heavily.  Good luck!


----------



## PattiXmas (Jul 23, 2009)

Wow - I don't know cows, but she looks like she could eat a couple (dozen) sandwiches.


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 23, 2009)

She's skinny. Why oh why do people let their cows get like that? 

Like I said, start her at 6 pounds a couple times a day. Once she's been on grain for a few days you can up it. You don't want to start to heavy where she isn't used to getting it. We use an 8 qt(I believe that's it's size) grain scoop and feed 1 scoop for every 20 pounds of milk per milking. So a cow giving 20 pounds of milk get 1 scoop of grain. 30 pounds of milk gets 1 1/2 scoops. 40 pounds of milk gets 2 scoops of grain, etc. There are 8.6 pounds of milk per gallon of milk. With her you could give a little extra than that until the weight comes on but, remember not to do to much to fast or you could make her sick. And once she gets back to where she should be remember not to over grain as that can cause health issues too.

If you don't have a grain scoop it's an 8 qt calf pail full per scoop.


----------



## freetodream (Jul 23, 2009)

Ok good to know I'm not just seeing things. Poor girl I feel so badly for her. The feed Store guy also said that he's surprised that she cycled let alone even caught. He suggested preg checking again in 30-45 days or so as she's so thin she may abort it. Is that what you all would recommend?  I'm amazed she's milking as much as she is.

So what is safe to worm a milk cow with? Any withdrawal period? I seem to remember it's usually a dry cow thing?

She's in our barn right now with a clean stall and all the hay she can eat. She's got box fans on her as well to help with the heat and flies too somewhat.  Can you use the same type of fly spray on a milking cow that you do on horses?  Mine is a Pyrethrin formula and it works ok on the horses. Does the residue get in the milk though?

I will definitely start her on the grain though and see how it goes.  With horses it's often better to add fat or digestable fiber (ie. beet pulp) instead of large amounts of grain(starch) to put weight on. How are cows different or are they?  Anything you should NOT feed a cow? Any general rules? Thanks for all the help I am eager to learn.
Kjersti

eddited to add:  her poop is normal cow pies and her coat is shiny despite being so thin, eyes are bright and clear, attitude is pretty good although she's bellowed most of the night and today (I'm guessing from missing her friends and being the only cow here). So to my eyes she's very skinny but I don't notice anything that would tell me she's sick. I think they just plain weren't feeding her enough.


----------



## Wolf-Kim (Jul 23, 2009)

She's a very pretty cow. I bet she'll be beautiful once you fix her up right. And if she aborted, don't worry, it may be for the best, babies take a lot out of any female. 

-Kim


----------



## wynedot55 (Jul 23, 2009)

as said start her on feed very slowly.an slowly increase it till she is eating 10 to 12lbs of feed at a milking.if she is milking as heavy as you say.she is milking herself to death.she needs a 16% dairy feed.


----------



## Imissmygirls (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't know.... Guernseys aren't known for body fat. And a 5 yr old? 
Yes, she could use some condition, but since she was only on pasture and hay, gradually adding grain should give you what you want. The fact that her hair is glossy and she is bright says a lot for her health. 
One thing: if her milk production rises as you give grain, she may just be that dairy and not put on much weight!
Make sure she has all the good hay (  preferably an alfalfa mix) she wants in front of her.  How long has she been grazed? Some grazers just want to graze and it will take a long time to switch her over.

 I just did the math and fresh March , bred back in 60-90 days  now 30 days preg puts her right where she should be in the lactation. 
Did you get her at a dispersal sale? Any special reason they sold her?


----------



## freetodream (Jul 23, 2009)

She was getting some grain at the dairy but it was just rolled barley. I'm not sure how much.  

The man that owned her raises dairy heifers and then after they calve and he gets them started milking good he leases them to the dairy.  This cow actually belonged to his teenage son and so he wanted some money to buy a car so they offered her to me.  So no reason to sell her related to the cow just a good deal for me and it worked for his boy too.

She's eating hay pretty well she likes the premium alfalfa I got today much better.  She's eaten probably about 25lbs of hay today and scarfs the grain as well so her appetite is good I think. About how much hay can I expect her to eat or does it just depend?

Any particular dairy mix you all recommend? I was looking and purina alone has at least 8 different formulas for lactating cows! I feel a little lost. Some have up to 44% protein but I can't see that more would necessarily be better? Any guidance?

She milks really well she gave me 30lbs just tonight! So it will be a challenge to have her gain weight I imagine. She's the nicest cow to be around though, loves to be scratched and comes right up to you, leads really well and I milk her just tied to the fence with a feed bucket in front of her.  She's just really nice to be around and a lovely temperament for me to start out with. Thanks again for the help and suggestions.
Kjersti


----------



## kstaven (Jul 24, 2009)

She is leaning to the lean side, but I have seen much worse out there. One thing to remember is that he may have been feeding her hay, but if it is grown in nutrient depleted soil she will be missing essential nutrients in her diet. Same goes for the hay and grain you buy to feed. Sprouting your grains will help build her up faster as will adding kelp to the diet.


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 24, 2009)

freetodream said:
			
		

> Any particular dairy mix you all recommend? I was looking and purina alone has at least 8 different formulas for lactating cows! I feel a little lost. Some have up to 44% protein but I can't see that more would necessarily be better? Any guidance?


We have our customed mixed so I can't recommend any specific one. I would wonder about the 44% protein ones though. They sound like a premix-ones that you mix corn etc with. Percent wise, I would aim for, 18-20%. If she is giving more milk than you can use you could try a 16%. You asked about beet pulp. Some do use it with cattle. It's safe for them.

kstaven has a good point about possibly being nutrient deficient. He is a mainly grass fed operation (from what I understand) and his kelp recommendation would be like me recommending loose minerals. I would suggest that you do one or the other even with a good grain mix. I'd also have a salt block out for her. My preference is the trace mineral salt blocks.

You asked about a wormer. We use Eprinex the pour on. There are many out there just make sure they are okay for lactating cattle. You can worm anytime, whether lactating or dry. 

Fly control. A fly spray is fine, just double check the labeling but, I believe, most are fine for cattle. We use a pour on that lasts up to 2weeks here. Then I don't have to worry about breathing the spray and it's coverage lasts longer of the cows.


----------



## wynedot55 (Jul 24, 2009)

giving 30lbs a milking she is milking herself to death.an itll be hard to put any weight on her.because she is putting it all into milk.


----------



## Imissmygirls (Jul 24, 2009)

30 lbs a milking just gave it away.  She is DAIRY and born to milk.  Many Guernseys look downright anemic and frail when healthy and the older they get the more frail they look. 
Sounds like you got an old 4H project animal. They are probably happy to have her in a good home.
I think you may have problems putting weight on her.  Hopefully  you have good pasture to let her graze to her heart's content. Otherwise,I'd give her as much hay as she wants plus follow Kitty's suggestions for grain. No use cutting back on grain because genetically she will milk it off.
Sure hope you have use for 50-60 lbs of milk a day!


----------



## freetodream (Jul 25, 2009)

Thank you all for your suggestions I really appreciate it.  It is alot of milk but between our family, my parents, and my sisters family; and then some feeder pigs and eventually some bottle calves we should be able to use it lol.  And if we still have extra there's always the cow share option but we'll see.  

So when we let her dry off for the next calf do guernsey's gain weight and look better? i'd bet that's the time to pack pounds on her so that she would have a bit extra padding for the next lactation is that correct?  Is a litlle longer dry off period say 90 days instead of 60 advantageous to let her rest a bit more or does it really matter?

And if this is fairly normal for a heavily milking guernsey to look like this, does it not impair their fertility or ability to hold a pregnancy? If i understand it right they're just bred to milk heavily and the more feed they get they just put it out as milk instead of body fat?

We actually just moved and while we have a 4acre pasture it needs rested for a few weeks since the last people let their horses overgraze it and didn't divide and rotate or anything. So we'll work on that.  We also have a 10acre alfalfa field that will be ready to cut again in about 2 weeks. Right now she's getting free choice premium alfalfa.  So between the two she can have all the pasture and hay she wants and then we'll follow kitty's instructions on grain and see where it gets us.

I do have one more question though; Although the consistency of her poop is normal I'm seeing alot of undigested grain kernels in it particularly oats.  Is that normal or is something about her digestion off? Feeding too much? Not used to it?

Thanks again everyone,
Kjersti


----------



## jhm47 (Jul 25, 2009)

It's normal for quite a few undigested kernels to come through in her poop.  This is especially true if the kernels are not rolled or ground.  Even then you will find a few.  

Be sure to cut your alfalfa before it gets too mature.  alfalfa needs to be cut when in the bud stage or even earlier in order to make the best quality hay.  When you begin to see blossoms, it's way too late.  The hay will still be useable, but not top quality "premium dairy" hay.


----------



## Imissmygirls (Jul 25, 2009)

Packing on the pounds as you put it, is not exactly a good thing for the dry period. It's a fine line and you don't want her fat at calving-- that leads to other problems!
If you want to give her a 90 day dry period ( assuming you can dry her off- some heavy milkers don't dry off easily!) you can turn her out into good pasture and she should put the weight on naturally during that period. Most dairies don't give much grain at all during the dry period for health reasons. I 'll let Kitty and wynedot chime in on dry cow feeds. We always just gave good hay or grass, then eased them into grain when freshening.
Remember all ration changes should be gradual.
Re: the diff between horses and cows:  cows have 4 stomachs and chew their regurgitated cud to digest it. They REQUIRE roughage to keep their systems moving along.


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 25, 2009)

Dry cow period is easy and you don't want to tackle it?

Basically hay, hayledge, corn silage, etc. No grain until 3-4 weeks from freshening and then start slow. 3/4 of the 8 qt grain scoop is max before freshening here. And that is only the last week or so. Once fresh I give a full scoop and slowly increase it to where the milk production dictates she gets. Go slow. To fast causes health issues.

To much weight equals health issues. One major one at dry/freshening period is fatty liver. It can be fatal. 

As for the time of dry off. 60 days if plenty. Some dairies go as far down as 4 weeks but, we like the 60 day better.


----------



## Imissmygirls (Jul 26, 2009)

LOL, I KNOW that's the easy part, Kitty, but they want to put weight on her!
I've never ever wanted to put weight on a cow during the dry period, and wouldn't know how to go about it! Seems they naturally put it on to the amount they should if given enough *good*  roughage.
We always had more problems keeping weight off than putting it on, but I believe in feeding animals properly. It was always a frustration in showing dairy cattle (heifers) that we thought looked great, but were carrying just a bit too much weight while feeding just on pasture.
freetodream may just have to get used to looking at a *dairy* cow!


----------



## milknmomma (Sep 23, 2009)

Hello,  I was loking up info on a really sucked down Jersey cow and came across your post. I have never done this before so bear with me,  I used to pick up used skinny cows from a dairy that would cull them out and I would purchase them pregnant and keep the babies.  I had one that was a nice cow but she would eat, eat, eat and was bright eyed and bushy tailed.  How ever she was wasting away to nothing and eating me out of house and home.  One weird thing was she had chronic diareaha!!.  She got so week and skinny she couldn't stand up.  I proped her up with hay bales and just kept feeding her.  I excercised her in that position for several days and finally asked my husband to put her down for me.  Considering we are a home schooling family I opted to use her corps for biology project plus it was driving me nuts that I couldn,t figure out what was wrong with her.  I called my vet about something we were doing and he asked me to bring in a stool sample or a piece of her small intestine.  He sent it to a lab and confirmed she had Johnes. pronounced yonies.  

www.johnes.org/

It is common in daries and is passed on tyo their babies.  Kind of like forever passed down.  We have checked our other cows and they tested clean but it could be they just weren,t in a flair at the time.  It seems to surface about 6-7-8 years old.  Be sure to do research on milk feaver too before she freshenes.  You want to be ready.  I hope you find help for her.  milknmomma


----------



## Beekissed (Sep 24, 2009)

So..what did the vet recommend about this disease?  Any hope for these cows?


----------



## jhm47 (Sep 24, 2009)

There is no hope for Johnes infected cows.  Johnes is a bacterial infection of the intestines.  The bacteria cause the intestinal walls to thicken, till they are no longer able to absorb nutrition.  Johnes has been implicated with several human diseases like Crohns disease, but it is unclear if it actually causes it.  

Cows that have Johnes will eat and act normally, but they waste away till they eventually die.  The bacteria are slow to reproduce, but are able to survive for several years outside of cattle.  They are passed from animal to animal through milk, and eating feed contaminated with infected feces.  The bacteria can live on feeders, loader buckets, and other equipment that handles manure.  When buying feeders, loaders or other farm machinery, be sure to clean and disinfect it carefully to avoid spreading the disease to your clean herd.


----------



## ksacres (Mar 28, 2010)

Here is more information on Johne's Disease (paratuberculosis):
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/55900.htm&word=johne's

If you are looking for peace of mind, have a culture done on her feces for Johne's.  

Yes, your cow is a bit too thin, she looks like a great dairy animal and is diligently producing lots of great milk for you.   

There is always a substantial difference between the body condition of a good dairy animal and the body condition of a good meat animal.  They are selected and bred for different purposes.  Meat animals put their feed energy into meat and condition, dairy animals put it into milk.  Even a well-fleshed dairy animal should look nothing like a well-fleshed meat animal.  

I would say, unless you have REALLY good quality dry roughage (like premium, high test alfalfa) or REALLY good high quality pasture (like well maintained young alfalfa/clover) you aren't going to be able to put any substantial weight on her until her lactation slows.  Feeding her the amount of grain it would require to put weight on her right now would more than likely be harmful to her rumen, not helpful to her weight gain.

If you are truly worried about her flesh condition, you could _try_ to get her to lower her production by not milking her out completely when you milk.  The pressure on her udder will tell her not to make so much.  Some cows will show a decrease, and some cows will keep right on truckin'.

The key to having a well-fleshed dairy animal during lactation is to START with a well-fleshed dairy animal and MAINTAIN during lactation.

The theory behind the "natural/organic dairy" is great, I fully support it.  But the often overlooked truth of the matter is that a modern bred production animal needs more nutrients than are provided from what is normally fed in these operations.  They are generally fed lower protein grains (since soybean/soybean meal is an important protein booster, but most soybeans in the US are now GMO) and in some cases not enough concentrates (grains) in general because of the "pastured" part.  Modern bred animals generally produce far too much to be able to sustain themselves without additional high energy high protein feed.  Simple math says that if energy in (positive=feed) is less than energy out (negative=milk) then you end up with a negative (loss of condition).  

Old strain Jerseys/Guernseys/Brown Swiss are a much more suitable choice for full pasture situations as they only produce 2-3 gallons per day and are able to maintain themselves since they aren't putting nearly as much into the milk pail.  The older strains tend to be smaller, heavier fleshed animals.  They also aren't nearly as efficient at turning feed into milk (because they are also using feed to maintain heavier body conditions).

This was just my rant of the day, has nothing to do with you or your management.  

_KSAcres-who has seen lots of too-skinny dairy animals that were raised "naturally" by people that thought "naturally" meant no feed at all..._


*Long story short:  you have a high producing cow, at this point I'd just work at maintaining or putting a small amount of flesh on.  Her lactation will eventually drop off, then you can start building flesh slowly on her.  Late lactation is actually the easiest and safest time to build flesh on a dairy animal.  Don't get her overfat or she could have trouble calving.  Then, on her next lactation, just work to keep her in good flesh.  *


----------

