# Ram NOT eating at all!



## NachoFarm

Our three year old ram is doing a lot of laying down and from what I can tell, no eating whatsoever.  We separated him and two ram lambs a few weeks back to keep them from breeding the ewes and he was doing fine.  They are in a stall in the barn full time instead of being out on pasture but he was doing fine initially and eating well.  I am VERY worried at this point because we lost a ram a year ago to pneumonia with basically no warning.  I wonder if I should just let him outside or if the ladies will just stress him out more.  I wish I knew what was wrong!


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## alsea1

I would start by taking his temp.
Check gum color
Listen to stomach sounds both sides of animal
Look at eye lid color
Try temping him with special treat
If he does not respond I would try calling the vet with all the vital info you collected.
If its pneamonia I think there should be elevated temp.
Is he pooping normal or diarhea
Cocci can sometimes rear its ugly head if they get too stressed.
Good luck. I hope he gets well


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## secuono

Well, he went from moving daily and eating natural foods to being locked up in a box eating less natural food. His guts have slowed, nothing is really getting things moving. 

Check everything alsea1 said, get him moving, separate him further to see if he is pooping. 
Will he eat pulled grass or treats?


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## NachoFarm

They're still eating pasture grass.  That I go out and cut down by hand.  We just let them all out.  Breeding will just have to happen when it happens at this point.  I just want him to get better.


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## BrownSheep

I would check and see if he has anything in his mouth as well. Its possible that he could be cribbing the wood and has splinters in his mouth


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## NachoFarm

The neighbour came over and took his temp, 102 which I believe is still in the normal range?  He does seem to have laboured breathing so the neighbour gave him a shot of something for pneumonia and then we let him and the rest of the boys out.  I thought we were making the right decision by separating them because I was under the impression that the rams would fight to the death during breeding season.  So we make that choice and now he's sick.  But now we've let them out so if he gets better then they may fight.  Can't seem to win here.  I did get him to eat a few Mini Wheats out of my hand, by far one of the strangest things I've ever done.  Hand feed a sheep cereal.:/  I didn't check his gums or eyelids yet as I didn't want to stress him out anymore.  And not sure what I'm listening for if I decide to listen to his stomach...?


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## alsea1

A healthy active stomach makes gurgle noises.  A still sick stomach is pretty quiet


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## NachoFarm

alsea1 said:
			
		

> A healthy active stomach makes gurgle noises.  A still sick stomach is pretty quiet


If he's not eating then it would be quiet anyways right?  What would that tell me about what he's suffering from?


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## BrownSheep

My mature  probably 300lb+ ram is running with two 80lb little guys, no fighting. I have seen the little guys breeding as well. I've done the same in the past. If the rams have been together they typically don't fight during breeding. If they are being introduced that's when they fight. I did lose one ram lamb when I introduce my oldest guy back into the herd a couple years ago. 

I doubt that it has had anything to do with you penning them.


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## alsea1

Noise indicates that the gut is functioning.  The stomachs are a fermentation system. Thats why if you hear nothing then you need to get it going asap.  
If he is still not eating I would administer some probitoics and maybe even a shot of Vitamin B to try and stimulate his appetite. 
Of course the treatment needed depends on what is going on.
When you have one animal off like that it is helpful to know if it can pass manure or not because this would indicate if the animal is blocked up or not.
Also it tells you something about the state of it's stomach. Also the color of it can tell you alot.  Real bad smelling diarhea could indicate coccidea.  A real green color could mean that he ate too much green grass.   Diarhea can also indicate the presence of parasites.

With all that said. How is your fella doing?


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## bcnewe2

Is he drinking or peeing?  Does he look bloated at all? Could he have water belly (urinary calculi) which can cause a blockage? Any other food stuff he could of gotten into?

How did he do when you let him back in with his ewes? Could it of been stress caused from your ewes coming in to estrus?

I raise ram lambs to sell, but with a good strong leader they don't fight to much at all. A bit of fighting amongst themselves but nothing dangerous.  I sell them at about 10 months or younger.


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## Four Winds Ranch

How is you ram this morning? :/
Keep us posted!!!


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## NachoFarm

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> Is he drinking or peeing?  Does he look bloated at all? Could he have water belly (urinary calculi) which can cause a blockage? Any other food stuff he could of gotten into?
> 
> How did he do when you let him back in with his ewes? Could it of been stress caused from your ewes coming in to estrus?


As far as I can tell he's not drinking or peeing.  He will lift his head and seem to grind his teeth while pushing out his stomach and/or breathing heavily, I can't tell which.  There's nothing that he could have gotten into that would have upset him and I can't tell if he's bloated really because of all that fleece.  Maybe a bit...I'm not sure.  We don't feed any grain at all so what are the chances that he would get that?    

He gets up and follows the ewes but only to lie down near them.  He's laying in the grass but as far as I can tell he's not eating anything still.  

His eyelids look pink, I couldn't check his gums, he wouldn't let me.  

The neighbour came by again today to give him another shot and Rambo didn't even move when he straddled him to give him the needle.  He has a bit of discharge around his nose that made the neighbour think it must be pneumonia but that's from his experience with cattle.  His breathing does seem rapid.  

If it's water belly, what would be the treatment?  And if it's pneumonia, when should I expect to see an improvement?  Do I attempt to force him to take water or salt or drench him with something?!  I don't want to walk into the barn in the morning and find him dead but he doesn't seem to be getting better...or worse.


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## bonbean01

Sorry your ram is not getting better yet...this may sound strange, and NO, I am not a vet...nor have I had your problem in my sheep...but...this may be worth a try...found this on a site that if I were you, I would give it a try....drenching with beer...here is the link to read more about that:

http://www.sheepmagazine.com/articles/dead-ram-walking/

Hope your guy recovers!!!!


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## bcnewe2

Water belly is urinary calculi.  I lost a whether to that a and saved a ram. 
A male sheep penis has a tiny corkscrew tip inside of the sheath. The calculi are hard little stones (think kidney stones) that get caught or stuck in the tiny corkscrew  tip. 

It leads to death as they can't urinate.  Lack of peeing is a pretty sure sign, that and extreme pain.
I can't tell you what causes it but for us I think it was extremely rich alfalfa hay.  I don't feed alfalfa because of it. But there are other things that can cause it.  

Pipestone, a vetrernairy supply and school offers on line help and if you call them they have several vets that you can speak with for free.  They have helped me more times than not.  It was them that talked me through a surgery that we did ourselves to save the ram.  It consisted of exposing the corkscrew tip and cutting off the tip. Releasing the stones.  But it wasn't easy and I could of killed the ram. But he was going to die anyway so we did it. He lived and reproduced quite some time after that.
If you think it might be that either call your vet or look up Pipestone and give them a call. Even if you don't think its that you can describe his symptoms and they might be able to help.  
Google Pipestone sheep supply. They're located in Minnesota.  They offer a great class (not free). Back when I took it they sent a chapter at a time with q&a at each chapter end.  Probably on line by now.  It was quite helpful for a newbie like I was. 

Good luck and let us know what happens.
My dh and I still laugh about doing the happy penis dance when we were successfull in saving the ram.


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## NachoFarm

Still not eating as far as I can tell, not sure if he's drinking but I did see him pee a little bit today when I was in the barn.  Still discharge around the nose.  Another shot today, the neighbour says that he should've shown improvement by day two and by today if the drug isn't working then it doesn't make sense to continue with it.  Not sure where to go from here...off to the liquor store tomorrow I guess to grab some beer.  Is there any way to drench without a gun?  Just shove the bottle in his mouth.  I hope he's still alive in the morning so I get the chance to try.  No noise coming from his stomach on either side today and I can't even tell you when is the last time he ate or drank anything.  Four days maybe five...


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## bonbean01

I'm sorry your Ram is not doing better...very upsetting and stressful when you don't know what is wrong for sure...no vet that knows sheep...trying everything and keeping in mind just how long you can let your animal suffer before putting it down...very distressing for sure   Just went through that with a 6 month old ewe lamb that we thought must have pulled a muscle...but kept getting worse...did more research and sounded like bacterial arthritis...different than old age arthritis...took her temp...was over 104 and started antibiotic shots for 5 days...by the second day she was already showing improvement...whew...yesterday she was able to leave sick bay and join the rest in the big pasture...really hope this is how your situation turns out 

Are you sure he is not drinking any water?  Didn't think they could live that many days without water? 

Any chance of getting a vet to check for stones?  Grinding his teeth means he in in pain 

I would use a drench gun for any liquid...not pouring it down...would be afraid of choking.  What colour discharge from his nose?  

I would take his temp again.  Sounds like stones...yet the nasal discharge and breathing hard...yeah..take his temp again and hope someone can help you...I'd call Pipestone for sure...all of bcnewe2's advice looks right on.

If nothing else...I myself would try the beer as a last resort...no clue if it will help since not sure just what is causing this...but sounds like he is getting worse and you may be running out of time...sorry to repeat myself...but please give Pipestone a call!


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## bcnewe2

I should of mentioned that a tiny bit of urine might dribble out but not enough if he has a blockage.  I think, although I haven't had time to read the article that was linked about beer that I'd be more likely to use probiotics if the gut was off but if NO gut sounds then more drastic measures are probably called for.  
I tend to agree that no water for 5 days would make him very close to death. What do his gums look like or can you do a pinch test, pinch the skin to see how quickly it returns to normal, staying pinched would mean dehydration.  I can't say that I've ever done that or if it works on sheep. Although I don't see why not. 

Really...give Pipestone a call. They are super nice, unless you get Dr. Kennedy. He is opinionated and rather harsh. He uses methods or suggests drugs that are old fashioned that are not always the norm but he is very wise non the less. He helped me with an issue a few years ago that had my vet stumped.
They also have a fb page where you can post questions on line. I prefer to talk over the phone so I can get instant answers and more personal service. 

I am wondering what your neighbor is using for antibiotics.  Nuflor would probably be my first choice. Penicillin would be one of my last.  Maybe LA200 but I'd be checking with a vet for the best antibiotic for your area.


Good luck


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## bonbean01

Checking in ... how is your ram today?

bcnewe2...I've never tried the beer drenching, but as a last resort I'd try lots of stuff just in case...had no idea beer had so many good things in it...before using that though, would need to exhaust everything else...just sounds like this ram does not have a whole lotta time 

Hoping for a good update Nacho


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## bcnewe2

YEs bonbean it's amazing what we will try to save our animals. 
I did read the article. Still not sure how much I'd believe it but I sure don't think it'd hurt and in the same position I'd probably try it.

BTW a cheap drench gun is available at TSC.  I've had mine for years and it holds up well.


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## bcnewe2

I forgot to mention that I think there is something about LA200 not being used on a ram that is getting ready to be used. Just a little memory but worth checking into if that's what the neighbor used, he pulls through and you are wanting to use him.

Hope he's done a miraculous turnaround.


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## bonbean01

That's good info...never knew that...also this year I heard that chemical wormers close to breeding time was not a good idea for ram or ewes???  We do monthly drenches of garlic barrier and apple cider vinegar with vitamins, so guess we're okay...this was new to me also.

We're on our original drench gun...use it monthly and after birthing, like to give the ewes a tonic with it...6 years later and it's still good...think I got it for under 12 dollars.  

Nacho...getting a bad feeling here...did you lose your ram?  Really hope not!!!!  Update please.


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## NachoFarm

There was no change this morning, still alive, still just sitting there.  So I went out and bought Gatorade and beer...lol.  When I got back I drenched him with the Gatorade, that was amusing.  After that I was feeding hay to the rest of the crew and I brought him some into the barn and offered it to him by hand and HE TOOK IT!!  So I locked the rest of them out of the barn and filled up a bucket with hay, I did see him nibbling at it again although he didn't make a huge dent.  Tried to drench him again by myself...even more amusing.  The neighbour came by again and hit him with something that starts with a "B"...sorry I don't know more about what he's giving my animals but I really do trust him.  Said to hit him with that every other day until Tuesday along with penicillin daily for five days I think?  This was info from his nephew who raises sheep.  Don't know what we're doing wrong or what we're doing right but he's not dead and the eating was a big success.  I'm going to try to drench him again tomorrow with more Gatorade and then maybe the beer later in the afternoon.  Thanks for all the help guys, I'm feeling a little bit optimistic.


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## bcnewe2

If you live in a barber pole worm area I wouldn't count on using just garlic juice and ACV. I lived down in AR, which is a heavy barber pole worm state.  We've always kept our sheep numbers way lower than our land would support so worms have never really been an issue for us, also the farms we've lived on were reclaimed farm land so had not had much in the way of livestock on them. That helped alot, but some friends were on a farm where their numbers were high and land was contaminated,  they were doing the garlic juice as a preventative wormer. They lost some pretty high numbers to barber pole.  It is there that I started using Lavamasole and have had great luck with it that and  cydectin.  I also did cooper bolus' which I think helped keep our worm load down. My friend sent me the bolus' so I never learned exactly how she made them.  So many different opinions on cooper bolus usage and sheep, lots of old sheep people wouldn't even listen to the suggestion of it. But it worked for us.  

If you do FB you should like pipestone. They just had info on wormer use in newly settled ewes.  They say as long as it's not a cream colored wormer you are safe. They say use clear wormers except the first 30 days of pregnancy to do nothing unless dire circumstances. I don't know about a ram though.  
Pipestone is commercial flock based so sometimes they aren't as holistic or as natural as some might like but they really do have great info.  You can ask questions right on FB and they'll answer pretty quick. Plus other people will post what works for  them. It's a high number page so sometimes you'll get lots of info. 

I'm praying Nacho has some good news and maybe just had a busy day.
We were posting at the same time Nacho. Glad to hear he's still holding his own.
I'll bet your neighbor is using bannimine (sp?) and penicillin. The B is for pain and the penicillin is for infection.
If your thinking it might be pneumonia,  I really suggest getting something stronger than pen.  It might be working but there are other antibiotics that will work faster and better. Not knocking your neighbor at all. We all use what works for us and I'm sure he's doing his best. Must be great having a neighbor you can get help from.  
Good luck and I think you might need to drench yourself with some of that beer. You deserve it! 
Hope you continue to post good news!


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## bonbean01

Good news that your ram is still alive and even eating some!!!  I totally love my little flock of sheep...small flock...5 ewes and 1 ram...and I get so attached to these critters for sure ...read about your ram and yes...after our scare with our little Dixie...knew what you were going through 

Just to clarify...here barberpole worms are the biggest concern...we also have far fewer sheep than most on our pastures...we rotate between 3 pastures...the biggest one and two smaller ones and at night all are in a large paddock with their shelter, good fence..and three rows of electric fence on the outside....so, we're not over populated.

For six years we only used the garlic drench and acv monthly and checked eyelids using the famacha (spelling?) chart and it was all good...UNTIL...this year...had a mild winter and then rain allllllllllllllllll spring long..actually had rain most of the winter too...out in cold rain during lambing.  Things changed this year after that...ram got lungworm cough and eyelids not as pink...so used a chemical wormer for the first time...used Prohibit...then 19 days later used the Prohibit again after reseaching the worm cycle.  After the first round of Prohibit, lungworm cough gone...all had healthy colour of eyelids...none lost condition, but gave it the second time just to be sure.  Now back to garlic barrier and acv.  People crack jokes about my attempt to go as chemical frees as possible, but I am ready with the rest if needed and won't hesitate to use it when needed.  I totally love my sheep...had no idea how much we'd love them and just want to do the best we can for them.  Around here, I am known as....Woman who pets her sheep too much 

We consider cydectin to be the big gun and yes we have it, but have never used it yet.  We like to keep all of this on hand all the time for the just in case.  Should we have a big worm problem, are ready with the big gun   Also have two bags of powdered lamb colostrum on hand...so far most has gone to our neighbour for triplet goats.

Enough of my ramblings...back to your ram...glad he is eating...and will repeat myself again...if you can't get a vet locally to help you...Pipestone is a very good place to call...glad your neighbour is helping you.

If you try the beer thing...be sure to have extra for yourself...you may need one by now


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## bonbean01

Nacho..sorry to be a pest...but have been wondering about your ram all day.

Update?


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## NachoFarm

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> Nacho..sorry to be a pest...but have been wondering about your ram all day.
> 
> Update?


Drenched again with Gatorade yesterday afternoon.  He had seemed perkier in the morning as he was standing up when I went into the barn.  Rotated the pasture and forced him outside but all he does is lay next to the fresh grass, not eating.  Like I said before, he ate a bit of hay the other day but nothing substantial.  Still has a bit of discharge around his nose.  He's dribbling urine still but I'm thinking it's from the fact that he's not really drinking much.  So slight improvement but no significant change...I haven't been to the barn yet this morning.  Finger crossed that he's running around mating.    What was he concern about drugs and using him in breeding though?


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## bcnewe2

IF my memory serves using LA200 or it's generic equivalent can render them sterile for a bit of time.  If I remember right maybe a month or so of a withdrawal period.  But I'm going way back in my brain so I could be wrong. And it wasn't with all antibiotics just LA200.  I will see if I can't find the proper information.


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## bcnewe2

So if you google la200 and rams you will get some information about it rendering them infertile for a month or longer. But I couldn't find anything worth linking to.  If that is the drug your neighbor used I would suggest leaving him in with his ladies for a couple months not just 30 days.  That was you'll know he's had time to do his deed and will have a better chance that he'll be successful.


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## bonbean01

Thanks for the update Nacho ... and so glad your ram is still alive...where there is life...there is hope 

Even if your ram is sterile for a month or so...so much better than being dead!!!  

I stress badly when any sheep, or my dogs, or chickens are not healthy, so know this is hard on you!  I remember the terrible feeling I had when I woke up and praying that Dixie did not die during the night...it is an awful feeling...so is wondering when the most humane thing is to put a suffering animal down, still trying...still hoping...yet not wanting them to suffer...it's tough...hang in there and hope he improves and makes a complete recovery!


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## NachoFarm

Still alive and up and about today...I even caught him drinking AND eating a bit yesterday and today and he was outside of his own free will this evening.  Fingers crossed that that's the end of whatever that was.  He's not 100% but he has made improvements.


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## Four Winds Ranch

Yay!!!      That is awesome!!!


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## bonbean01

That's good news!!!!  Hope he just keeps on getting better!!!


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## bcnewe2

Where's the like button! Woo whoo!


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## bcnewe2

Repeat post again.  Darn phone posting....


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## bonbean01

Hoping next update will be even a bigger improvement!!!!  Funny thing about us people who love our sheep...it extends to concern for other people's sheep too...who we will never meet...no matter...glad things are on the upswing and hoping for a complete recovery!!!!


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