# Concerns about Redcell



## Southern by choice (Sep 20, 2012)

I have seen many people using redcell for their goats, so I started looking into it because I had no idea what it even was. I came across this from Fiasco Farms...

" Red Cell, which contains beef liver and died meat solubles. I no longer recommend using it."

"Be aware that is illegal to feed any ruminate protein back to a ruminate as part of the scrapie/BSE control program."

???


----------



## elevan (Sep 20, 2012)

There are actually several different varieties of Red Cell.  

Red Cell Pellets 

Red Cell Liquid 

Poultry Cell 

The mineral contents are very similar but ingredients are different.  Each person administering medications off label (for a purpose other than labeled) need to consult a vet.


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 20, 2012)

The bottle says now 'contains no ruminant byproducts' or some such.  The mad cow disease of several years ago precipitated the change.

Molly no longer owns goats...so doesn't keep on top of the latest and greatest info.


----------



## Queen Mum (Sep 20, 2012)

Well, according to the link provided, the liquid contains "dried meat solubles and liver concentrate".  In other words, it could contain poultry liver or pork liver or some such.  I would not be wanting to feed my goats meat solubles or liver concentrate per se, on general principles.  Ruminants just aren't meant to ingest such things.  

HOWEVER, in a pinch,  I would rather they had that than anemia.   I will probably switch to pellets in the future as they do not contain either the meat solubles or the liver concentrate.


----------



## Suburbanfarmer (Sep 21, 2012)

From what I understand there is several different formulations. I found that out when I decided that I didn't want to spend the money to get the large bottle (formulated for horses) and got the small one instead (formulated for dogs). The guy at the feed store said they were the same, so I didn't even read the label. They are not the same. I'm not 100% sure, but from the label the horse one doesn't have any meat products/byproducts, but the one for dogs does. 

What I don't love about it is that it has artificial red color. Really?! We have to have to artificially color something for animals?! Gah!! My son is super sensitive to artificial color and flavor, so we have cut it from the whole family's diet. Now, even my husband and I notice when we end up getting some (usually headache, but often minor flu-ish symptoms). Since we have our goats for milk I don't know how much comes through, so we have decided not to give red cell to the goats.


----------



## byardbabe (Sep 21, 2012)

Hi,
Not to get off the subject, but when did Molly get out of the goat bussiness?  I have used her herbal wormers for several years but hav recently switched.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Sep 21, 2012)

byardbabe said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Not to get off the subject, but when did Molly get out of the goat bussiness?  I have used her herbal wormers for several years but hav recently switched.


I say that she was out of goats a while ago. I too was wondering why she is out of them.


----------



## Southern by choice (Sep 21, 2012)

I thought she divorced and they sold all their goats. 

Thanks for the input everyone, I guess I see so much on here about what people keep on hand and what they give their animals etc. that I try to get the bigger picture.  So redcell is basically for extremely anemic goats that need a boost? Do goats get anemic overnight, it seems like there would be a gradual regression and steps that could be taken before it gets to that stage. Remember I'm a goat newbie, so it may seem a stupid question but it's not a stupid question if you don't know the answer.  I figure if I don't ask then I'll just remain ignorant. :/

All my goats are under 1 1/2 yrs old (Nigerians- 2 does 1 buck and 1 Lamancha doe) there is another ND doe in with my girls but she belongs to my farm partner. My girls are separate from all the other goats on the farm. I haven't had any issues with any of my goats. No parasite issues, hoof issues, no mites or lice, nothing. I am VERY happy about it!! The only issue I have is they are a bit fat! Their coats are brilliantly shiny, everyone who comes by the farm says how healthy they look, now that I've had the opportunity to see other goats and other farms, even other peoples chickens,I really do get to see the difference. My background is canines, so I take everything into the farming world... we are very diligent in the care of the animals, HOWEVER, I do know that "crap happens" and sometimes no matter how diligent you are things can go terribly wrong. Since goats are a new thing for me I like to glean from those with experience! I am sometimes shocked to see all the issues that goats can have. I am wondering if some of it is bad genetics, overbreeding, or a lack of culling. 

Thanks to all who share their "lists" of what to keep on hand, and just the knowledge shared! It is very helpful.


----------



## elevan (Sep 21, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Thanks for the input everyone, I guess I see so much on here about what people keep on hand and what they give their animals etc. that I try to get the bigger picture.  So redcell is basically for extremely anemic goats that need a boost? *Do goats get anemic overnight, it seems like there would be a gradual regression* and steps that could be taken before it gets to that stage. Remember I'm a goat newbie, so it may seem a stupid question but it's not a stupid question if you don't know the answer.  I figure if I don't ask then I'll just remain ignorant. :/


from:  http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-parasite-mgmt


> Hemonchus Contortus (Barberpole)  -  This is the worst worm that we are dealing with.  It is a voracious bloodsucker and can kill the animal.  It is very small only about 1/2 inch long as "adult".  A heavy infestation can remove 1/5 of the animal's blood in 24 hours.


So if a heavy infestation can remove 1/5 of the animal's blood in as little as 24 hours, then you can indeed have a very anemic goat literally overnight.


----------



## Southern by choice (Sep 21, 2012)

@elevan- thank you so much, I just read the link you provided. Very informative. It is really amazing how fast a goat can go down. Scary really. I am working on building a "goat emergency kit". Hope I never really need it though. Around here lots of people have boers and they all say the same thing- "yep, one day they are fine next day they're dead" -makes a whole lot more sense after reading the link. Guess I'm still in shock.


----------



## Roll farms (Sep 22, 2012)

IMHO, one of the best things you can do is put your hands ON your goats at least 1x a month, but we try for 2x a month, esp. in wet / humid / barberpole / coccidiosis season.

You'll feel their body and coat condition (a thick coat can hide more than you think, and a coat that feels....'icky' is an indication that something is wrong), I check their eyelids for anemia, their skin condition, etc.

I don't know how many posters over the years (here and elsewhere) say, "Oh, but it can't be ________ because my goats are in great shape and look fine and we clean the barn 16 times a day." 

Everyone's goats are fine...until they're not.  It's a question of how much attention you pay 90% of the time....but just plain bad luck the other 10%

And not everyone has the knack for seeing minor signs of what's wrong.  Many times I've noticed things and caught seriously life-saving situations in time while my dh is standing there saying, "But...she looks fine to me...?"

I've also seen a lot of posters who do this or that, "just because".  My goat has the snots...let me dump Pen G in it (instead of trying vet RX or letting the animal fight it off).  Deworming w/out knowing what to use or what you're after or if it needs it.  

Red Cell isn't something I give unless I feel a goat NEEDS it.  Anemia, a really, really rough kidding w/ a lot of blood loss or serious injury.

I fix 90% of what ails my herd w/ nothing more than probios and B vitamin...and that may make me feel better more than it really helps them....but if your animals get good care (including vaccinations and proper parasite control), a good diet, and aren't stressed - they really do rarely have problems.


----------



## redtailgal (Sep 22, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> IMHO, one of the best things you can do is put your hands ON your goats at least 1x a month, but we try for 2x a month, esp. in wet / humid / barberpole / coccidiosis season.
> 
> You'll feel their body and coat condition (a thick coat can hide more than you think, and a coat that feels....'icky' is an indication that something is wrong), I check their eyelids for anemia, their skin condition, etc.
> 
> ...


  EXACTLY.  Do what they need when they need it and understand that sometimes what they need is for their humans to have patience.

My bottle of RedCell does have liver and meat soluables in it.......but when I have an anemic goat, they get the redcell (and treatment for whatever has caused the anemia).  And then, I dont have anemic goats anymore. It works for me.


----------



## Queen Mum (Sep 22, 2012)

I agree with Rolls 100%.  

Good husbandry starts with a keen interest in the day to day condition of your animals.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  

BUT if it's squeaking, give it a little oil and tighten up the screws, (in goat talk, that's, some Probios and Vitamin B), and you will save yourself a WHOLE lot of grief in the long run.


----------



## Southern by choice (Sep 22, 2012)

Elevan. roll, redtail, queen mum- you gals(?) are great. I am 100 % in agreement. New to goats, but extensive medical (human) and canine experience. I just kinda rolled it into goats but good info from tose with experience is priceless.
Here is our general protocol. However this will be posted and signed by those doing the assessments. (I use to do it with chickens but discontinued it when we got to over 200 at one time :/ )
Ears
Eyes
mouth
teeth/gums
coat- I check for dander, mites, evidence of mites, greasy or oily skin(kinda like a dog with thyroid-just nasty/gross) hot spots,hair breakage etc.
Genitalia
Hooves/ pads & nails on dogs
Our animals are weighed weekly up to a certain age(depends on goats or dogs) then every two weeks then monthly. We record everything-Very obsessive with record keeping

we didn't have a microscope for awhile but our vet neighbor lent me his so stool checks are weekly(yes a bit excessive, I know, but I also am teaching my teens and my farm partner. Not just stool but how to do skin scrapings and also mite checks, eventually how to run cultures too)  Working on getting the proper slides to do the McMasters test. 

I think doing the McMasters makes more sense for the goats, unnecessaryfor dogs and chickens- standard fecal is fine.
Hearts are checked yearly and our first kid will be checked at 6-8 weeks. I am a firm believer in knowing what your dealing with before administering any meds. 

Trying to work with my farm partner too, not always easy- and yes, he can say the same about me I know!


----------



## Southern by choice (Sep 22, 2012)

oh I forgot to add...

so is there anything else that you can see that I'm missing.


----------



## Queen Mum (Sep 22, 2012)

Wow Southern By Choice.  What a great list.  I want a microscope really badly.  Can you explain the McMasters test please?


----------



## Southern by choice (Sep 22, 2012)

Still working on that... my farm partner is looking up everything we need. Thanks to Jodief I started looking into the "eggs per gram" testing that they do with the forage tests. My partner has meat goats. So far, as I understand it, you use so much (weighed) fecal, so much flotation, and a special slide that you put "so much" fecal float on. 

Ok that stank... I'll ask my partner for the right info. :/

A microscope is priceless. Well, not really- they can be pretty pricey. A compound monocular microscope is all you really need,
binocular is great but really adds to the cost. The one I want is very pricey but I will need it to look at stuff at the cellular level  eventually. I love pathology!   Carolina Biological has really good pricing!

BYH is helping me to get a bit more organized- I've been rather lax lately.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Sep 23, 2012)

Here are a few links about the McMaster Egg Counting Technique. You can see them Here, Here, Here and Here.

Here's a video too.


----------



## Queen Mum (Sep 23, 2012)

Wow,  thanks Straw Hat Kiko's great information.


----------

