# Is it time for my LGD to go?



## Ram20 (Jan 21, 2014)

I have a Pyrenees about 14 months old. He is attacking my sheep if they get close to mineral tubs and so forth. I also saw him trying to breed a ewe. The ewe would fall down and he would stand by until she got up and he would go at it again. I think I would have lost her had I noticed what was happening. Is he just young or should he go?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 21, 2014)

*Something is clearly wrong!
This is unacceptable behavior from any LGD at any age period.*
Did this suddenly start or has he been this ill behaved all along? 
How long have you had him?
Can you give a brief history?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 21, 2014)

Ram 20... another herdie on here was noticing your posts from the thread you started ...
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/loosing-lambs.27827/page-2

Is it possible your LGD is killing the lambs?


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## Ram20 (Jan 22, 2014)

I bought 2 pups at about 7 weeks old. I put them with two young ewe's in a kennel and they grew up to gather. This one likes to guard the food a little to much. He goes to work after dark though. When this happened two sheep were eating at their mineral tub and he didn't like it. He jumped on one of the sheep knocking it down. I also caught him a few weeks ago try to breed a ewe. She would get down and he would stand by until she got back up. I think he might have wore here down had I not caught him. I have been keeping him away from them in another pasture. Not sure what to do.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 22, 2014)

Don't know if you saw my other post.... post#3

So from 7 weeks til 14 months nothing? No issues ever?
This just suddenly started a few days ago?

Are both dogs Male? or M and F?
Are they fixed? Spay/neutered? At what age if yes?
Do you have any other dogs on the property that could be in heat?

Has he always been this way with the sheep with them eating feed? or from the mineral feeder?

Is this his first go around with lambing?

Is he Purebred Great Pyrenees?

How does he respond to correction from you? How do you correct him ?

What does the other dog do when this is happening?

It is best he is kept away for now. As far as getting rid of him it depends on the root of the issue. At this point you cannot rehome him as a LGD, and they don't make great housepets. So if it is where you can work with him, depending on the info you can give, then best to work with him. If not then put the dog down.

Given the issues you are having with your lambs from your other thread and the dog is there a possibility of something poisoning him?


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## Ram20 (Jan 22, 2014)

They are purebred, both males, not fixed. I have a crepe feeder for the dogs. Sheep can't get to it. I had put a mineral tub out and that is what he was protecting. Never had problem before but first time I had the tub out. He does that to the other dog though. No other dog around and no poison. I thought about getting him fixed, but didn't know if that would work. It might change his attitude though.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 22, 2014)

Ram 20 I am really trying to help you here but your answers are not very helpful. There is a reason for the questions. One cannot have limited info and expect to give a reasonable response to the situation.
The following are still important pieces of info...



> Is this his first go around with lambing?





> How does he respond to correction from you? How do you correct him ?





> What does the other dog do when this is happening?





> Don't know if you saw my other post.... post#3





> Ram 20... another herdie on here was noticing your posts from the thread you started ...
> http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/loosing-lambs.27827/page-2
> 
> *Is it possible your LGD is killing the lambs?*


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## Ram20 (Jan 22, 2014)

They were with the ewe's that they were raised with when they had their lambs with no issues. Second go around. They have never bothered a lamb. The lambs that I lost were not with the dogs. Two different problem. The other dog pays no attention when this happens.  I correct them by telling them NO- Mine. He don't pay me a lot of attention until I approach him then he stays away from me and the sheep. Only problem I can't stay with them all the time. If I could I wouldn't need the dogs anyway. Don't think he would bother them if not for the mineral tub, but don't think he should attack them anyway. I noticed a young ewe the other day that looked like it may have had it ear chewed on. Just not sure if I can trust him.


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## BrownSheep (Jan 22, 2014)

Any chance he is licking the mineral tubs and thus sees it as something that belongs to him?...If his behavior is chancy at best I would neuter him. 
He isn't displaying LGD characteristics and you wont want to pass it on. It cant hurt and hopefully losing the hormones will at least stop the humping.

I'm not very familiar with LGDs and you will have much better luck with Southern just thought I would through out my ideas.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 23, 2014)

I agree with Brownsheep as far as neutering although some male dogs will still do this. 

He is at a state of maturity and has determined his dominance at this point. Of course this is based on very little info but it sounds as though he is not submissive to the livestock nor you the master. That makes for trouble with a LGD.
The tub is an issue but from the limited info I would say the dog doesn't see you as master or alpha. A LGD that stays away from it's human master when corrected generally shows a Negative dominance issue, these kinds show a false sense of dominance usually because underneath  they are timid and these dogs are hard to correct. If you are unable to grab hold of him and roll him than you more than likely will not be able to correct him. His running away also shows distrust, not having any bond with your LGD is never good. These animals are very different if they trust you than they do try to please you and in the end are better guardians, if they run from you and stay away they do not trust you and often are problem dogs. Some end up being a real risk to humans not just livestock.These are the kinds that flail and fight when the collar is grabbed... they can bite out of fear and that is what I would be most concerned about.
This IMO  is also not boredom as he has a companion.
The fact the other dog is doing nothing is a bit troubling also.


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## Ram20 (Jan 24, 2014)

He is licking the tub and that is the problem. I just don't think he should be jumping on the sheep for any reason. He might do it when I am not watching. He is the alfa male of the two and thus the other dog will not interact. I guess the jewels will have to go. Will see if that works. They charge $150.00 to neuter around here. I will have a lot in him if it don't work. Had a guy offer to sell me a female pup the other day for $50.00. My other male can take care of business until she grows up. Thought about doing that. Hate to have to do that to any dog. Thanks for your help.


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## AshleyFishy (Jan 24, 2014)

$150 to neuter? Wow check with your local spca or other humane animal control programs.  They will have neuter and spaying at a reduced cost normally.


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## Sweetened (Jan 24, 2014)

$150 is lucky. Our SPCA/Humane societies don't offer the service if you don't qualify for government assistance.  Next week I'm taking in a year old, 65lb female to get spayed.  If she's in heat, which I think she is, it's $400; and I go to the best priced vet within a couple hundred clicks.

Good luck with him, I hope this works.  Some dogs just aren't cut out for it, even if they come from the very best lines.


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## AshleyFishy (Jan 24, 2014)

Sweetened said:


> Good luck with him, I hope this works.  Some dogs just aren't cut out for it, even if they come from the very best lines.



Huh didn't know you had to qualify for government assistance for that. Never done it myself. The normal cost around here is about $50 for a male and $100 for a female. 

As sweetened said some just don't do well. No matter what you do for them.


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## Sweetened (Jan 24, 2014)

Awh!  I'm so jealous.

It's different here, province to province.


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## Mike CHS (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm curious about how you would try to "re-train" the dog that has obviously become the leader of the pack (in his mind).  Would you go back to obedience training or what might be the options?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 24, 2014)

Mike CHS said:


> I'm curious about how you would try to "re-train" the dog that has obviously become the leader of the pack (in his mind).  Would you go back to obedience training or what might be the options?



The dog would need to be fully evaluated to determine if retraining is even possible. If a dog has a negative dominant behavior they are often very difficult.


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## Tea Chick (Jan 24, 2014)

Ram20 said:


> They are purebred, both males, not fixed. I have a crepe feeder for the dogs. Sheep can't get to it. I had put a mineral tub out and that is what he was protecting. Never had problem before but first time I had the tub out. He does that to the other dog though. No other dog around and no poison. I thought about getting him fixed, but didn't know if that would work. It might change his attitude though.



Strictly about the mineral tub you said he's protecting:
I had a mutt which we had from the time he was whelped (we owned his mother) and he really wanted to eat out of the compost pile; I guarded it from him, but the chickens are allowed to free range, so they frequent it (like children frequent a candy store lol).  He was tethered somewhat near the compost pile, so he tried to guard it from the chickens (and cardinals and everything else) b/c he thought I didn't want anything eating out of it (if I was going to let _anybody_ eat out of it, it should be him, right?).  Anyway, if you chased him off of the mineral tub, then he might be guarding it for you.
I defer to experts about the ewe breeding attempts and lamb incidents.  And I am sorry you're having this trouble.

BTW, anyone, what does LGD stand for?
I know I'll feel like an idiot when you said it, and I assume that the D is dog, but what is the rest please?


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## Tea Chick (Jan 24, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> I agree with Brownsheep as far as neutering although some male dogs will still do this.
> 
> He is at a state of maturity and has determined his dominance at this point. Of course this is based on very little info but it sounds as though he is not submissive to the livestock nor you the master. That makes for trouble with a LGD.
> The tub is an issue but from the limited info I would say the dog doesn't see you as master or alpha. A LGD that stays away from it's human master when corrected generally shows a Negative dominance issue, these kinds show a false sense of dominance usually because underneath  they are timid and these dogs are hard to correct. If you are unable to grab hold of him and roll him than you more than likely will not be able to correct him. His running away also shows distrust, not having any bond with your LGD is never good. These animals are very different if they trust you than they do try to please you and in the end are better guardians, if they run from you and stay away they do not trust you and often are problem dogs. Some end up being a real risk to humans not just livestock.These are the kinds that flail and fight when the collar is grabbed... they can bite out of fear and that is what I would be most concerned about.
> ...



This sounds exactly like a dog that we had.  He didn't listen unless he "had" to and even then...
We ended up having to have him put down. =,(


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## Southern by choice (Jan 24, 2014)

Sorry you had to put your dog down Tea chick. 
Not all dogs make the cut and often they are not trustworthy to be a pet either. 

LGD stands for *L*ivestock *G*uardian *D*og.


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## Tea Chick (Jan 28, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Sorry you had to put your dog down Tea chick.
> Not all dogs make the cut and often they are not trustworthy to be a pet either.
> 
> LGD stands for *L*ivestock *G*uardian *D*og.



Thank you.
Yeah, he was good with the kids, but we couldn't trust him with anything he might think might be food.

Thanks.  I knew it would make perfect sense and seem so obvious when someone told me what it stood for.  First thing I thought was _I should have thought of that!!!_


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## Womwotai (Feb 5, 2014)

I'm just throwing this out there because I've read the whole thread and haven't seen this suggested.  Since he is licking the mineral tub and guarding it from the sheep, is it possible his own diet is deficient in something and therefore he sees the mineral tub as something of value that he needs to keep for himself?


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## Pips (Mar 25, 2014)

Guardians can bond (herd/territory bond) with anything ... truly.  If not given a specific task or even you have.  Usually happens with late puppy homing.  But if something was born in there or one of the younger herd used the mineral tub for some purpose he could attach to it.   I have seen this before, protecting a foal from goats, a crib that hasn't been used for 3 years, etc ... just misdirected bonding.


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