# Coyote pack atack



## heathen (Dec 11, 2013)

Well Yesterday Percy died from wounds received 2 days prior from a pack of 7 coyotes at only 4 years old. They came in my buddies drive down from the woods toward the goats and chicken pen. Percy was fighting them and loosing when Kc and his Boyfriend ran out with a gun. They did not get a shot in on any of the coyotes they just shot once in the air and the coyotes ran off. They didn't think Percy looked to bad no flapping skin just a few bloody bight marks but nothing serious. Percy passed away yesterday and was buried with other lost dogs a 14 year old pug and a five year old pug that was hit by his uncles truck.  So now he is wanting one of our pups when they are born. He is going to listen to me and get a pair of them this time. He has a sever issue with coyotes they have jumped the fences and taken off with one of his pugs and his aunts yorkie.  My question is what breed of LGD is best when dealing with coyotes? I know Anataolions look for predators and take them out before they become an issue. Does anyone have any suggestions? My pups the dad is 1/4 Merama and 3/4 GP the Mother is pure GP but I have not had them hit the ground yet. What other options are there. He has goats chickens pot belly pigs turkeys all in the same lot. Thanks for any suggestions. Heath


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

It isn't a breed issue. It is a numbers issue. One LGD cannot take on 5-7 coyotes.
IMO teams are always best! Also it really depends on the amount of land being covered as well as the severity of predator threat.
If you have 2 LGD's to cover a lot of land and high volume coyote issue than 2 won't be enough.

Sorry about your loss. Percy should have been treated right away for the puncture wounds. Puncture wounds do not bleed out causing infection to set in. Anti-biotics as well as another rabies shot would be protocol.


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## Andrei (Dec 11, 2013)

LGD job is not to take on coyotes because most of the time they will lose. 
A wild animal bite to kill or take meat off and a dog needs training for that and most do not have it.
Their job is to alert and to intimidate.
When I was selling German Shepherds customers were asking if they will fight racoons and coyotes and of course sometimes they will but you want to avoid that confrontation. 
I take my Great Dane to the ranch and at 160lbs and with his aggressive/protective behavior I still see him as a victim in front of a hungry pack of coyotes. 
But as soon as I hear his thundering bark I join him and support him if needed.
Coyotes are not coming close for a clean shot.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

There is a difference between Guardian Breeds and LIVESTOCK Guardian Breeds.

LG Breeds are not like other Guardian breeds such as a Dane or Mastiff, they have been bred for thousands of years to do this job. They are also not at all like GSD's which have been in my family for 4 generations. I have a Schutzhund started GSD currently (messed up by her former trainer) ... however she lacks power and size to take on coyotes. 

Livestock Guardian are instinctively protective and will take down a predator. They work best in teams or packs and they function best this way. The way they do this is different from other breeds of dogs.


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## elevan (Dec 11, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Sorry about your loss. Percy should have been treated right away for the puncture wounds. Puncture wounds do not bleed out causing infection to set in. Anti-biotics as well as another rabies shot would be protocol.


x2


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## Mike CHS (Dec 11, 2013)

Sorry for your loss.  That is a hard one to have to adjust to.


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## alsea1 (Dec 11, 2013)

Poor Percy


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## heathen (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks for the info. SO does anyone know of a way to deter the Coyotes from taking his other small dogs and stock? I know the pups will have a couple years to grow before they are actually ready. I have thought about loaning him one of my females but really don't want to send her over there without another dog as a partner. I have 3 LGD and a very low predator issue. I have electric wire ran outside and inside of my fence. I have suggested he do this also but cant because he can't afford it at the moment. Is anyone breed of LGD in anyones opinions supperiors? if so why?
Thanks again Heath


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## SillyChicken (Dec 11, 2013)

It seems pretty obvious to me...You've already stated they are too numerous and getting too bold, taking pets out of the yard........* start killing the coyotes*.

Draw them in with calls, set live traps.. but kill them in the trap don't release somewhere else.


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## heathen (Dec 11, 2013)

Well the issue with that is the KY Game wardens. There are certain seasons for them in our county because there are not enough....... When he called the game warden and told him the issues and the game warden told him its a good thing he didn't shoot the coyote because he would have ben fined. Sometime the most obvious things to us seem ridiculous to our government. Even a dog in this area has to bite the same person 3 times before the law can do anything but it can bite multiple people two times its fine......  The season on coyotes is comeing up soon but Shooting them is still illegal even if they are a threat to your stock in the state of KY.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

The game warden can set traps.
There is no superior breed.


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## Andrei (Dec 11, 2013)

Bigger dogs and working breeds can keep them out.
Irish wolfhound, sheep dogs and always in pairs at least.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 11, 2013)

heathen said:


> Well the issue with that is the KY Game wardens. There are certain seasons for them in our county because there are not enough....... When he called the game warden and told him the issues and the game warden told him its a good thing he didn't shoot the coyote because he would have ben fined. Sometime the most obvious things to us seem ridiculous to our government. Even a dog in this area has to bite the same person 3 times before the law can do anything but it can bite multiple people two times its fine......  The season on coyotes is comeing up soon but Shooting them is still illegal even if they are a threat to your stock in the state of KY.



I have never heard of any place you could not defend your livestock.
And I have never heard of a county where there were "not enough" coyotes.
I didn't even think they were native there, but I guess I'm wrong about that.
In NC, you can kill 6 days a week, all year long because they are not native. They are considered and "invasive" species. Heck, you can even use spotlights and shoot at night on private land.


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## bonbean01 (Dec 11, 2013)

So sorry for your loss.  The job of a herd LGD was explained to me exactly the way Southern posted...and the team of Great Pyrs I met were awesome dogs!!!  The range of land for them was kept in mind as to not ask them to do something more than they were able to handle.  These dogs are amazing to me! 

This man told us that when a coyote is killed by them, they drag them to the gate...is that the normal for LGD's?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

Andrei said:


> Bigger dogs and working breeds can keep them out.
> Irish wolfhound, sheep dogs and always in pairs at least.



Irish Wolfhounds are hounds, sheep dogs are herders... neither are Livestock Guardians. 
There is a reason there are only a handful of breeds able to do the job of livestock guardian. 
Livestock Guardians are much more than big dogs that scare predators away. 

Those that have and own livestock know this very well that is why we have LGD breeds.


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## treeclimber233 (Dec 11, 2013)

I would definitely talk to another game warden.  I find it hard to believe you are not able to protect your livestock and pets.  Then there is always the SSS method (shoot, shovel and shut up). Two years is a long time for his livestock to be unprotected.  Hmm... Brings to mind something my Animal Control Officer told me once.  I can not shoot my neighbors dog for coming onto my property *unless it threatens me (growling, snarling, barking) *even tho I called them because these same dogs previously came and grabbed my tiny poodle right in front of me.  Maybe try telling them the coyotes are threatening you


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## Trigoat&pbrlover (Dec 11, 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss!


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## Trigoat&pbrlover (Dec 11, 2013)

Andrei said:


> Bigger dogs and working breeds can keep them out.
> Irish wolfhound, sheep dogs and always in pairs at least.



Where do you get your info from?


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 11, 2013)

First off, I'm very sorry the OP lost their animal, that is truly sad. Coyotes are a serious threat to any livestock.
But, I have to say, I wonder about some things I read regarding LGD's and I hope you understand why.

I read a thread on here once from someone considering purchasing a Great Pyrennes x Border Collie.  Oh, no you cant do that!!!  That is a horrible combination!!  Border Collies are herders they will chase your goats around!! 

I then looked out my window at Mikey my GP X Border Collie just laying there watching the herd.

And then I met some people from the mountains who have a working dairy, they milk 100 goats per day.  I figure if they milk 100 goats per day they must have 200-250 goats on their farm any given day.  Guess what they have?  Border Collies and nothing but Border Collies.  Yes, the dogs herd the goats to the milking parlor every morning.  But, I'm thinking they provide some degree of protection?

I'm sorry, but when I read "facts" in complete disagreement with what I have personal knowledge off, I question everything else that follows.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

That doesn't mean some dogs won't be ok around the livestock but the reality is they cannot take down a large predator. As sweet as Mikey is and as great as he is with your goats, no offense, because he is a sweetie... he cannot take on a coyote he is no taller or bigger than your feed bins. There is a reason why these dogs are massive and are still used all over the world as guardians. They must have power, strength and endurance. 
When crossing herding dogs with Guardian breeds you will run the risk of having an inadequate guardian. Period. Herding dogs are high prey drive, small, are not submissive to the herd or flock, and have a complete different purpose. Livestock Guardian Breeds are LOW prey drive, first loyal and COMPLETELY submissive to their charges. 
My GSD has heart and will go after any predator that comes on the property but she cannot overpower a pack of coyotes. She will easily take a fox or any smaller predator. We are in coyote country here where they are bold and will grab small animals off your porch. Any barking dog can deter, it is when the barking does not deter and the animal is hungry and bold enough to come on through anyway... 
Having many years experience with all breeds of dogs there is a reason why breeds are very specific. If I want a hunting dog I don't need a pyr or anatolian or maremma etc. Having always had high end personal protection dogs I can assure you they are NOT the same as LGD's.
On the mountainside throughout Europe you will still see the true livestock guardian dogs with their flocks... no fences... huge ground to cover, they move with their charges. 
They think differently and they are different. Those that have LGD's know how these dogs work. They are not easily tricked or fooled. While one targets in the other team members instinctively start running for patrol... coyotes as well as wolves will send in a bait "dog". Sound LGD's are fully aware of this. Depending on the #'s in the team each LGD will do their part. 
For those that have seen LGD's in action they are distinctly different in how they take on a predator. Mostly they will come up over the top and crush the spine. That takes shear power, size and large jaws. 

Yes, everybody has a story of how their non-lgd breed is a great "guardian"... I get it... the bottom line is there is a reason these breeds have been around and been doing THIS job for centuries.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 11, 2013)

No offense taken.  And Mikey takes no offense either.
As long as you don't take offense when I say when I read "fact"s in complete disagreement with what I have personal knowledge of I question everything else that follows.  If I didn't I'd need to call my friends and tell them they need to replace their dogs, that have served them well for many years now.


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## woodsie (Dec 11, 2013)

Around here the more people I talk to the more I will be sure to never call the game warden. Seems that they have very little interest in keeping livestock safe but are more than happy to hand out fines. 

The SSS seems to be the only short term solution for your friend if he wants to keep his livestock and pets safe. I always prefer prevention and am super thankful that my Pyrs keep our coyote packs on the other side of the fence but until you get a full-size team of LGDs, he's in a difficult spot. So sorry for his loss!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

The facts may be that they may not have a real predator threat.
Much depends on that fact alone. 
Herding dogs cannot take out a bobcat or a wolf or a pack of coyotes... it is that simple.

If you choose to say that it is a _fact_ that these other breeds are as successful as LGD Breeds at predator control than that is your opinion. Amazing though how many people have herding dogs *and *LGD's. 
Basically you are saying you have personal knowledge of what... one farm with non LGD's that haven't lost any animals? 

I know of many farms that have no LG of any kind and haven't lost any animals. Does that make it _fact_ that farms with no LG will never have loss? 

So you don't believe LGD's are all that... that's ok.
Live where I live with your goats and see how many animals you lose within the first year. There is a reason every farm around us have LGD's, those with cattle have donkeys. 

Neighbor had his first dog snatched off his porch... the Doberman couldn't protect it? The second dog snatched, the Rottweiler was ineffective. 
People should do what works for them, if things are working for them why change it? It is when it isn't working and you are losing livestock.  Never would anyone with any knowledge about predator control recommend herding dogs.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 11, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> The facts may be that they may not have a real predator threat.
> Much depends on that fact alone.
> Herding dogs cannot take out a bobcat or a wolf or a pack of coyotes... it is that simple.
> 
> ...


 
No, I think LGD breeds are great. And you clearly have a great deal of knowledge and passion for these breeds which I respect.

And I'm not stating any facts other than the fact that I and others do fine with border collies or GP Border Collie mixes. Or like you said, there are farms that have no dogs of any kind and do not lose any livestock.  I avoid stating facts as often as I can.  I just don't always accept others passion as fact.

You have no more of a coyote problem where you live than I do. And, our coyotes are well fed by all of the deer struck by cars.  We have no "marauding" packs here.  You don't have them in Chatham County either.

My biggest threat just like yours is stray dogs.

Like we've said before, what works for one farm, may not work for another.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 12, 2013)

One Fine I *do not *live in Chatham county and *you live in a neighborhood*, I do not. 
In our region we have terrible issue with coyotes.  
Stray dogs? Not here.


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## frarmer1 (Dec 12, 2013)

heathen said:


> Well Yesterday Percy died from wounds received 2 days prior from a pack of 7 coyotes at only 4 years old. They came in my buddies drive down from the woods toward the goats and chicken pen. Percy was fighting them and loosing when Kc and his Boyfriend ran out with a gun. They did not get a shot in on any of the coyotes they just shot once in the air and the coyotes ran off. They didn't think Percy looked to bad no flapping skin just a few bloody bight marks but nothing serious. Percy passed away yesterday and was buried with other lost dogs a 14 year old pug and a five year old pug that was hit by his uncles truck.  So now he is wanting one of our pups when they are born. He is going to listen to me and get a pair of them this time. He has a sever issue with coyotes they have jumped the fences and taken off with one of his pugs and his aunts yorkie.  My question is what breed of LGD is best when dealing with coyotes? I know Anataolions look for predators and take them out before they become an issue. Does anyone have any suggestions? My pups the dad is 1/4 Merama and 3/4 GP the Mother is pure GP but I have not had them hit the ground yet. What other options are there. He has goats chickens pot belly pigs turkeys all in the same lot. Thanks for any suggestions. Heath


 Learn to trap, or hire a reputable trapper. Not a loud obnoxious one,but, one who gets the job done with no injuries to your own animals. The pack will be back. You re in their territory. I live in Minnesota, my husband traps nuisance animals. Most people don't know he's there.


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## frarmer1 (Dec 12, 2013)

heathen said:


> Well the issue with that is the KY Game wardens. There are certain seasons for them in our county because there are not enough....... When he called the game warden and told him the issues and the game warden told him its a good thing he didn't shoot the coyote because he would have ben fined. Sometime the most obvious things to us seem ridiculous to our government. Even a dog in this area has to bite the same person 3 times before the law can do anything but it can bite multiple people two times its fine......  The season on coyotes is comeing up soon but Shooting them is still illegal even if they are a threat to your stock in the state of KY.


Look up the local trappers association. There are always a few guys looking for a place to trap. Ask for references, like past land owners or other association members so you get one who is good, and won't catch your dogs or livestock, or simply educate the coyotes about traps. Plus, they will know the laws and have a liscence.


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## frarmer1 (Dec 12, 2013)

I recently got out of sheep because of wolves. Same situation. Can't control them because of the anti's.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 12, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> One Fine I *do not *live in Chatham county and *you live in a neighborhood*, I do not.
> In our region we have terrible issue with coyotes.
> Stray dogs? Not here.



I thought you lived in Chatham, sorry. But that wasn't the point anyway.

Coyote distribution is fairly consistent in the *Piedmont "region" of NC* which you and a I are both in. We have as many here, as you have there. 

I fully realize your situation is different than mine.  That was my point. All farms are different, no one size fits all.

The neighborhood part, that's not really why because I back up to about 3000 acres of continuous farmland and timber. But, really more so the fact that my animals are secured close to the house at night.  I have a small area to protect.

Most coyote livestock predation in NC is calves and lambs during calving and lambing on pastures.  The larger the pasture area, the higher the risk. 

Concentrating the birthing season by synchronized breeding in the fall, having birthing occur in stalls or corrals or paddocks are probably the absolute #1 thing that can be done to reduce loss to coyote predation.  Coyotes are baby killers.

Oh, Mikey asked me to tell you he's much larger than the average coyote.  Maybe twice the weight.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 12, 2013)

Heathen,
I'm sorry you lost your dog. I apologize for getting of the topic of your thread.


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## heathen (Dec 12, 2013)

No Worries about the off topic Thank you all for your input. I own a herding cross GP bitch that is a joy to have around. She is as large as one of my female GP. She is the dominant female on the place. AS far as when a coyote is around she goes to the porch and barks and howls. The GP run toward the edge of the fence that they are barking except jess he immediately starts jogging circles around the lot and marking everything.  Traps are going to be set and the Coyotes were Reintroduced in KY about 12 years ago. They are not overpopulated but described as thriving. I understand the SSS method of handling issues however I always try to do the legal thing first. As grandpa used to say when we would do something off color Heath even a fish wouldn't get in trouble if it just kept its mouth shut.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 12, 2013)

One Fine you live in Raleigh, the Capital of our state. Wake county is densely populated. I do not not. You are not aware of our region. Piedmont is a large area. 
I will let my neighbor, who has already lost 2 dogs off his porch to coyotes, know we do not have coyotes here. I will also inform my neighbors that have had several calves lost and had 3 cows end up with rabies that they too have no coyote threat here.
I guess the fox family that would cross the road everyday and ate my poultry as they pleased (before I got goats and LGD's) weren't real either.
We are in heavily wooded country... that's where these kinds of predators live. People are aware of what environment they live in and what their particular threats are. Many will not need any form of Livestock Guardian, but many will. I think the average farmer knows what they need to protect their herd/flock.


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## jodief100 (Dec 12, 2013)

Back to the original topic, I live in Kentucky and if your Game Warden told you that, he needs to be fired. Kentucky does allow for lethal defense of livestock if animals are threatening your livestock.  We trap raccoons out of season because they kill our poultry.  We just had to let the Game Warden know. 

Coyotes can be hunted year round, no county exceptions.  They don't even have to be a threat. 

https://app.fw.ky.gov/seasondates/

Coyotes may be hunted year-round during daylight hours.
Coyotes may be hunted year-round after daylight hours; however, the following restrictions apply:
         Lights or night-vision may be used: Feb 1 - May 31.

Lights and night-vision may not be used: June 1 - January 31.
Other items of note:

Artificial lights and night-vision equipment shall not be connected to or cast from a mechanized vehicle.
Only shotguns may be used to hunt coyotes after daylight hours.
Single projectiles (slugs) are prohibited.
Trapping is permitted November 11th 2013  to Feb 28, 2014


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 12, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> One Fine you live in Raleigh, the Capital of our state. Wake county is densely populated. I do not not. You are not aware of our region. Piedmont is a large area.
> I will let my neighbor, who has already lost 2 dogs off his porch to coyotes, know we do not have coyotes here. I will also inform my neighbors that have had several calves lost and had 3 cows end up with rabies that they too have no coyote threat here.
> I guess the fox family that would cross the road everyday and ate my poultry as they pleased (before I got goats and LGD's) weren't real either.
> We are in heavily wooded country... that's where these kinds of predators live. People are aware of what environment they live in and what their particular threats are. Many will not need any form of Livestock Guardian, but many will. I think the average farmer knows what they need to protect their herd/flock.



I just use Raleigh in my avatar.  I live in eastern wake county.  There is a horse farm, cattle farm, and poultry farm all within one mile of my house.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6149488/

This is a link to a story from WRAL 4 years ago about coyote sightings in one area of Raleigh 4 years ago.  And a cattle farmer *(in wake county*) who lost 20 calves in one week. There is a related story about two coyotes being struck by airplanes at RDU, these are from 4 years ago, but there are a number since then.

Southern, before I ever got goats 4 years ago I killed a coyote in the field behind my house with my bow deer hunting.  I killed one with the bow at Falls Lake 10 years ago.  I actually was hunting for that one because I had seen him and baited the area with dog food after deer season went out.  FYI, it's pretty tough to kill a coyote with a bow. 

I looked back through everything I had wrote before this and I do not see where I ever said you do not have coyotes where you are at or where I am at. So, no don't tell your neighbor who lost two dogs off of their porch you con't have coyotes there. I never said that.

I don't even know why you are bringing in foxes eating chickens. I lost chickens to foxes right here in my *neighborhood in Wake* *County*  before I got goats and an LGD. Oh, but that's right I don't have an LGD.

I'll let my neighbor, in my *neighborhood* who lost several cats to Coyotes know that it's ok, we don't have as many coyotes as they have near Pittsboro because we are more densely populated here.

I don't know why we are having this debate.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 12, 2013)

Enjoy the last word.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 12, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Enjoy the last word.



So, are you in Alamance County?


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## Trigoat&pbrlover (Dec 12, 2013)

Had a big post typed up but then I remembered 



> The best way to keep your little FluffyBunnyLove in harmony with you and your home is to ignore him or her. Unlike their human counterparts, neglect keeps trolls temperamentally neutral.



Ahhhhhh much better!


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 12, 2013)

Trigoat&pbrlover said:


> Had a big post typed up but then I remembered
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhhhh much better!




I think you may have misunderstood, But, I'll give you a "like" for your post anyway.  Southern has me at a bit of a disadvantage.  She's been to my house, but I have not been to hers yet.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 12, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:


>


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 13, 2013)

I lost my entire Spring 2012 kid crop to a pack of Coyotes. I lost 5 in 1 night before I realized what was happening. I found where the doggone coyotes were getting in but by that time, my kids were all gone. These were my first commercial kids out of my Sawyer Spanish buck (his pic is my avatar). I had high hopes for those Genemaster/ Spanish kids. I had several orders to fill for replacement does and meat bucklings. Most of the kids were only 2 weeks old. I was out a huge amt. of money and distraught about losing those cute little boogers. I now designate the closest pasture to the house as my nursery lot so I can actually see the kids and their mommas at all times. The kids romp around with their new guardian llama "Carl" who loves him some baby goat. LOL!!! The remainder of the herd has "Dolly" as their guardian llama. Carl stays with the babies from 2 weeks before due date until they are weaned and then the herd is merged back together as one big herd and both llamas team up to guard  the whole herd.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 13, 2013)

This Spring when I weaned a whole group of kids, I figured that all that squalling and crying would draw in predators and it did. The day after I removed the momma goats from the nursery lot, there was a big huge fat red fox that climbed a sapling and jumped into the nursery lot and laid in the wide open and was sunning like he was the king of the world. The llama and herd of weanlings were a half mile away. I went in the house and got my 22 rifle with the huge scope (this was the only gun not in my safe) and from about 100 yds. got a direct surgical heart/lung shot and the fox jumped up and staggered into the woods never to be seen again. Buzzards were flying around 3 days later and I have never seen another predator since.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 13, 2013)

I traded a commercial buckling for each of the llama. There's a breeder down the road that had bought some commercial Boer cross doelings and wanted to breed them. Win/ win situation all the way around.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 15, 2013)

My grandfather always told me that if I kill a nuisance animal, leave it where it lays and this will deter another of them from coming back. When I kill a groundhog, if I don't decide to BBQ it, I throw it back in its hole and no groundhogs will return. Groundhog is a delicacy and you've not lived if you haven't had it.


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## heathen (Dec 15, 2013)

I have always wanted to try Groundhog what is your recipe? do you just skin it like a squirrel or rabbit?


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 15, 2013)

heathen said:


> I have always wanted to try Groundhog what is your recipe? do you just skin it like a squirrel or rabbit?


Yep. Skin it, gut it, wash the inside of the abdominal cavity out real good, stuff it with herbs (rosemary, thyme, garlic cloves) and get cotton string to bind the carcass through the midsection so the herbs steam inside and don't fall out during the cooking process, rub the outside of the carcass with generous amt. of fresh ground black pepper and coarse sea salt and place it on the BBQ for a few hours. It is wonderful and melt in your mouth. I serve it with new potatoes, cooked greens, and a good sour dough Texas Toast. I feel like this is the country critter version of the Food Network. LOL!!! But seriously, this is as good as it gets as far as a good meal goes. Enjoy!


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## kittie_kat (Dec 15, 2013)

Poor Percy. So sorry for your loss.


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## Andrei (Dec 16, 2013)

A coyote is too fast for ANY dog (greyhound is the exception) so their defense is just to intimidate and warn.
Discharging a firearm in a neighborhood is a risky business and that is why it is illegal in most of the World.
Now we take risks in life so ..... everybody does as they see it fit.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 16, 2013)

Y'all eat groundhog? Seriously...


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## woodsie (Dec 16, 2013)

We have tons of marmots around our place and we shoot them all the time...always wanted to know what it would taste like. They seem to eat what rabbits eat and rabbit is delish...is it similar?


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 16, 2013)

woodsie said:


> We have tons of marmots around our place and we shoot them all the time...always wanted to know what it would taste like. They seem to eat what rabbits eat and rabbit is delish...is it similar?


What is a marmot? Is it in the rodent family also with groundhogs and squirrels?


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 16, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Y'all eat groundhog? Seriously...


Yeah. Groundhog is wonderfully tender and a clean animal because all they eat is tender shoots of clover and other grasses.


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## woodsie (Dec 16, 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow-bellied_marmot

These are what we have around here...marmots are the ground squirrel family ..groundhogs and land squirrels are in the "marmot family". We get some really big ones around here that love to sun themselves on concrete and large rocks and it is tempting to throw them in a stew pot and get something back for all the nuissance they cause. We have holes / burrows under almost every structure we have on the farm, except where my LGDs are...my Pyrs think they are pretty tasty!


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 17, 2013)

woodsie said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow-bellied_marmot
> 
> These are what we have around here...marmots are the ground squirrel family ..groundhogs and land squirrels are in the "marmot family". We get some really big ones around here that love to sun themselves on concrete and large rocks and it is tempting to throw them in a stew pot and get something back for all the nuissance they cause. We have holes / burrows under almost every structure we have on the farm, except where my LGDs are...my Pyrs think they are pretty tasty!


I bet they have similar taste.


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## bcnewe2 (Dec 17, 2013)

Chiming in late cause I work to much and have been out of town for months.

I raise and train Border collies to work livestock.  If you get a "bad" or doG forbid an AKC bred border collie that has no stock interest you might get away with a mix of LGD and BC but for my money I keep my breeds bred for what they are meant to do.

LGD's guard, BC's herd. Why in the world would you want to mix that???

I lived in Colorado, we had black bear, cougar and coyotes galore.  2 Akbash were enough to keep my few sheep safe.  They didn't kill things they warned them off. If they killed them I never saw the evidence but I did see bear and cougars in neighboring fields.  So I know they were doing the job. 
I lived in AR with a bigger flock of sheep. Guard Llamas weren't near enough to keep my sheep safe. 1 Pyr and 1 Pyr mixed with Akbash did the trick.  My Llama kept his sheep rounded up while the LGD's dispensed of the threat. I saw them chase off Huge coyotes, Pitt bulls and Ferrel hogs.  My border collies would bark and head for the porch and let the LGD's take care of the issues. Before I got the lgd's I had the llama, he drove himself crazy not being able to protect his sheep.  But once I had the dogs he did a great job of keeping his sheep together.

Here I have foxes, and a few coyotes. Haven't lost a thing since I got my Anatolian. I don't need 2 as my predator issue is slim but if I did I wouldn't hesitate to get another Toli.  By far I have liked this breed the best. But that is because she fits what I need now. She has taken the most effort teaching her to not bother my chickens or hassle my lambs but I think that's due to her not having a partner and her youth.  Still wouldn't be without her. Worth every bit of hassle I've had.

I really think a pair or a couple pair of any decent LGD's bred to do their job would work for a pack of coyotes. But the more the merrier would be my motto if I needed them.

Mixing herding breeds with guarding breeds....WTH would one be thinking...might work for an individual dog or a mistake breeding but why oh why would one mix the 2 on purpose  is way beyond my imagination.  The chance for issues is bigger than I'd ever want to risk.

Poor Percy died doing his job. At least is was an honorable death.  I  hope your neighbor finds a solution quickly.  SSS is always my motto


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## heathen (Dec 17, 2013)

Well SarahLee is an accident dog. She is 1/4 border collie  1/4 Australian Shepard. She does an awesome job now at 2 years old. I think with any mix breed you are taking a chance even mixing breeds of LGD together. Yes she had LOTS of issues but now she knows her place and her job. She kills coons opossoms and the only thing she heards is frogs/toads. The day I was ready to get rid of her after she chased one of the goats so bad it collapse she ran to the chicken house and chased off a bobcat. I have honestly had as much if not more trouble out of my GP female than I did the mix. Well after someone else informed me of the law and referenced it here I told him. The warden claims he just ment we couldn't shot at night with lights.......... ANYWAY 4 of the coyotes have been taken care of. His uncle set some traps and though it is a little early I think it is justified.  Thanks all for your advise and the Groundhog info. I am excited to try one now. Heath


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## Southern by choice (Dec 17, 2013)

Is that a pic of Percy?   and


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## heathen (Dec 18, 2013)

yes good looking pup and dog he was a single birth, the biggest pure gp I have personally seen.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 18, 2013)

heathen said:


> Well SarahLee is an accident dog. She is 1/4 border collie  1/4 Australian Shepard. She does an awesome job now at 2 years old. I think with any mix breed you are taking a chance even mixing breeds of LGD together. Yes she had LOTS of issues but now she knows her place and her job. She kills coons opossoms and the only thing she heards is frogs/toads. The day I was ready to get rid of her after she chased one of the goats so bad it collapse she ran to the chicken house and chased off a bobcat. I have honestly had as much if not more trouble out of my GP female than I did the mix. Well after someone else informed me of the law and referenced it here I told him. The warden claims he just ment we couldn't shot at night with lights.......... ANYWAY 4 of the coyotes have been taken care of. His uncle set some traps and though it is a little early I think it is justified.  Thanks all for your advise and the Groundhog info. I am excited to try one now. Heath
> View attachment 513 View attachment 514



I guess the poor pup was a bit confused being 1/4 Aussie (more of a heeler type dog) and 1/4 Border Collie (straight up herding dog) and half Pry. I guess he felt a bit "bipolar" torn between all these instincts. "Do I chase these critters or do I protect them"? "Do I nip at their heels or do I just lay in wait and kill these other animals chasing my herd?" He is a beautiful pup though. Heck, even pure LGD's have their issues. I had one to kill chickens and play too rough with baby goats to the point of accidentally killing them. I sold him as a pet and he worked just fine as the only pet.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 20, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:


> Chiming in late cause I work to much and have been out of town for months.
> 
> I raise and train Border collies to work livestock.  If you get a "bad" or doG forbid an AKC bred border collie that has no stock interest you might get away with a mix of LGD and BC but for my money I keep my breeds bred for what they are meant to do.
> 
> ...


 
I don't know if Mikey, my GP x Border Collie mix was an accidental breeding, if it was an AKC Border Collie in the mix, or if like you say the breeders were out of their minds.

Just know he has been a blessing for my family and my goats.

He's gentle and submissive to the goats. He guards them closely.  I sleep well at night when I hear him barking out back.

I obviously do not have your level of self proclaimed expertise.  I guess I'm just lucky.

But, I'm also not going to let someone bash my dog without standing up for him.


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## Noahs Ark (Dec 21, 2013)

Hello I just joint in yesterday so I am really new to this type of forum. First I am really sorry for you lost and I will like to tell you that my son lives in Colorado and the cattle ranges there use Anatolians! but for what you said I will have a minimal of 3 so they can have a change to win some of those battles, and I will also put them some time of collar protection like the ones the romans used to use. I am an animal lover but somebody should be killing some coyotes and let then know that is you land and you are the top predator there!


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## MissFitFarm (Dec 21, 2013)

heathen said:


> Well the issue with that is the KY Game wardens. There are certain seasons for them in our county because there are not enough....... When he called the game warden and told him the issues and the game warden told him its a good thing he didn't shoot the coyote because he would have ben fined. Sometime the most obvious things to us seem ridiculous to our government. Even a dog in this area has to bite the same person 3 times before the law can do anything but it can bite multiple people two times its fine......  The season on coyotes is comeing up soon but Shooting them is still illegal even if they are a threat to your stock in the state of KY.


That just aint right... what ever happened to the right to protect you home family and livestock??? we can shot them here if our livestock is in danger. So what did the GW suggest? 
BTW sorry for his loss. I have seen my Pyrs ( 2 of them ) take on 4 coyotes together and won. but they are full blooded and the parents grew up outside with sheep. never seen the inside of a house, so I think the instinct is greater. maybe your friend needs to find a few LG's that he can kind of barrow maybe.?? Or just do what I would do and shoot them anyway and then burn the bodies some place no one would know. lock up the livestock at night? 
 Sorry if I have offended anyone in some way I get a little worked up when stupid government makes these stupid rules and takes away our ways of protecting ourselves and our livestock from harm. It's just not right!!


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## bcnewe2 (Dec 22, 2013)

Trophy Points:location:Raleigh, NC




bcnewe2 said: ↑ 


Chiming in late cause I work to much and have been out of town for months.

 I raise and train Border collies to work livestock. If you get a "bad" or doG forbid an AKC bred border collie that has no stock interest you might get away with a mix of LGD and BC but for my money I keep my breeds bred for what they are meant to do.

 LGD's guard, BC's herd. Why in the world would you want to mix that???

 Mixing herding breeds with guarding breeds....WTH would one be thinking...might work for an individual dog or a mistake breeding but why oh why would one mix the 2 on purpose is way beyond my imagination. The chance for issues is bigger than I'd ever want to risk.
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Quote from one fine acre:
Click to expand...
I don't know if Mikey, my GP x Border Collie mix was an accidental breeding, if it was an AKC Border Collie in the mix, or if like you say the breeders were out of their minds.

 Just know he has been a blessing for my family and my goats.

 He's gentle and submissive to the goats. He guards them closely. I sleep well at night when I hear him barking out back.

 I obviously do not have your level of self proclaimed expertise. I guess I'm just lucky.

 But, I'm also not going to let someone bash my dog without standing up for him.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am not bashing your dog. It's a general statement. There are individual dogs that turn out great from a breeding that isn't great. I'm very glad you got one. But I stand by my statement that the mix is not a stable mix and you can get some dogs that do not have the proper wiring to guard or work. Why would someone risk that on purpose  is something I will never understand.
I'm very glad your dog is a good one. But again, I wasn't bashing your dog. I even mentioned that there are cases where  the mix turns out fine. But I will never agree that it's a good mix.

Thanks for the vote of "self proclaimed expertise" that was mighty nice of ya!
Yeah....I agree you were lucky.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 22, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:


> Trophy Points:location:Raleigh, NC
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Don't thank me.  You've proclaimed your expertise twice now on the subject of appropriate canine cross breedings.

I'll keep an eye out for Mikey for signs of instability.

I'll see the people we got him from at a dairy goat show in May.  I'll ask them what they were thinking.

Maybe I'm lucky.  Or, maybe I have an eye for talent?  Or maybe I just got a dog from someone who is a good trainer?

I'm sorry I thought you were bashing my dog instead of making a general statement.


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## bcnewe2 (Dec 22, 2013)

One fine,
I reread this whole thread and do see where you might have taken my post personal. I was not talking about Mikey in any way. I didn't even put it together with my post that i might be insulting your dog. By stating my experiences and what you call my expertise it does seem like I'm bashing your Mikey. I am sorry and  I really am glad your dog works for your situation, he sounds like a special dog.
Doesn't change my mind about mixing herding breeds with lgds. I have 17 years experience and 3 states of varring predators. Mostly my experience is with well bred working border collies. They are my passion so i have made it my mission to know the breed. Maybe that does make me an expert on them. But i am learning more about them everyday i live and work with them. So really i am just a student of the breed.

There are always exceptions to the rules and I'm glad you have one.
I would really like to know if his breeder, correct me if im wrong, they have  the huge goat farm, bred the litter that you got Mikey from on purpose.
Standing by my original post with the exception of Mikey  and maybe a few others that this is not a  mix i would ever do or count on for a true  lgd which is what i think the op's neighbor needs as he obvislousy has a very big coyote problem.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 23, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:


> One fine,
> I reread this whole thread and do see where you might have taken my post personal. I was not talking about Mikey in any way. I didn't even put it together with my post that i might be insulting your dog. By stating my experiences and what you call my expertise it does seem like I'm bashing your Mikey. I am sorry and  I really am glad your dog works for your situation, he sounds like a special dog.
> Doesn't change my mind about mixing herding breeds with lgds. I have 17 years experience and 3 states of varring predators. Mostly my experience is with well bred working border collies. They are my passion so i have made it my mission to know the breed. Maybe that does make me an expert on them. But i am learning more about them everyday i live and work with them. So really i am just a student of the breed.
> 
> ...



No problem.  It's all good.

Thats' what this forum is about, expressing one's opinion, and sharing different experience.


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## Robbin (Dec 23, 2013)

Boy does this break my heart.  I'm also shocked.  The coyotes in our area simply aren't that big.  I'll bet I haven't seen 2 40lbs coyotes in 30 years.  People loose beagles and other small framed dogs to them.  But never a really large dog.  Of course the desire to protect would have something to do with it.  Other dogs would turn tail when it got ugly,  the LGDs won't.


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## bcnewe2 (Dec 24, 2013)

In AR I had a single coyote stalk me and a newborn lamb I was trying to get to bond with her Momma.  The white dogs were sleeping close by. I was busy with my work. I looked up just in time to see a coyote sneaking up on me. Right as I saw it the boys woke up with a very quiet grrrr and were up chasing the predator off the property. I heard the coyote hit the electric fence and watched as the boys sauntered back to the pen and plopped themselves down to finish their nap.  
I was very grateful for their protection. 
I'll bet that coyote was about 70 lbs. He looked like a healthy GSD. You could see from a glance he had been well fed.
I have seen coyotes round here that don't look more than 30 lbs. Maybe it's related to area.


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