# Fur sheep?



## Steve Quintavalli (Jan 17, 2021)

Hello, I read an article and actually did some research on a sheep that is called a fur sheep, not hair or wool but fur.  Apparently the still born lamb or a really young lamb generates the best "fur".  The breed is called Karakul. but is that the only "fur" sheep or is this possible with all sheep or maybe hair sheep?  I thought the pelts might have been called shearling but I guess not.  Anyway, is there any other breed similar to that or is it just a normal sheep and any breed can produce the same?


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## Kusanar (Jan 18, 2021)

Well, those certainly are not hair sheep, and being endangered, I don't know that I would be breeding them for lamb pelts. I would imagine any lamb pelt would have super soft fleece on it, especially wool breeds.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 18, 2021)

Karakul are a fat-tailed wool sheep. The use of "fur" is a sort of sale point. Also definitely a threatened/endangered breed which makes sense if people are killing all the lambs.

Basically yeah most any double coated carpet wool breed sheep is going to have lambs with short tight soft curls at birth because the double coat part hasn't come in yet. Any of these breeds Icelandic, Karakul, Navajo Churro, and Scottish Blackface.

I'm not a save the babies kind of person but the entire killing the newborn lambs for their pelt seems like a huge waste. I mean if they are at least 3-6 months old you would get some meat out of the deal. Personally I would never be ok with it, seems disrespectful to the animal and it's mother. You are wasting a life to use a very small percentage of the carcass.


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## Kusanar (Jan 18, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> I'm not a save the babies kind of person but the entire killing the newborn lambs for their pelt seems like a huge waste. I mean if they are at least 3-6 months old you would get some meat out of the deal. Personally I would never be ok with it, seems disrespectful to the animal and it's mother. You are wasting a life to use a very small percentage of the carcass.


Exactly, now, if you wanted to skin any stillborn lambs you have and tan those hides, that would be saving what you can of a death that already happened. Also, at a few days old you typically have no idea if you would want to keep that baby for breeding purposes or not so you could be butchering some really nice babies for a few square feet of hide.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 18, 2021)

Kusanar said:


> Exactly, now, if you wanted to skin any stillborn lambs you have and tan those hides, that would be saving what you can of a death that already happened. Also, at a few days old you typically have no idea if you would want to keep that baby for breeding purposes or not so you could be butchering some really nice babies for a few square feet of hide.


Yeah. I mean could see someone justifying the males only with not needing more males but even so the meat and hide would be more valuable and less wasteful then just hide.

According to online sites, each approx 2sqft lamb hide sells for $5-10usd which is nothing. An adult sheep hide tanned and ready is $150+ so really makes no sense to me. I mean the lamb hides are not some rare luxury product, this is literally what every newborn suffolk lambs looks like, dark black, curly and shiny.

Most ironic part is the information says the hides are prized for being dark black, then the ones you find for sale shows dark black skin side(suede)....means they dyed it black


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## Kusanar (Jan 18, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> Yeah. I mean could see someone justifying the males only with not needing more males but even so the meat and hide would be more valuable and less wasteful then just hide.
> 
> According to online sites, each approx 2sqft lamb hide sells for $5-10usd which is nothing. An adult sheep hide tanned and ready is $150+ so really makes no sense to me. I mean the lamb hides are not some rare luxury product, this is literally what every newborn suffolk lambs looks like, dark black, curly and shiny.
> 
> Most ironic part is the information says the hides are prized for being dark black, then the ones you find for sale shows dark black skin side(suede)....means they died it black


Lol wow. I hadn't even looked up the price! Most meat sheep are butchered at around 5 months give or take a bit, at that point they are 95-100 lbs or so. That's a lot of meat in no time and they are nearly full grown and that hide should be worth quite a bit more at that point. They even have a good bit of fleece at that age.


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## Ridgetop (Jan 30, 2021)

Actually there is very little market for hides here.  The cost of having a hide tanned (if you want one of your own done) runs abut $200 and has to be sent back east somewhere.  I have done one for each of my children.  Then there is the whole how to clean it if its gets dirty.  Cleaning fur is not cheap.

On to the subject of "fur" sheep.  There used to be a type of fur coat years ago known as "Persian Lamb".  Supposedly the hides were from "unborn lambs".  The coats were very soft with curly black hair or wool.  Most likely the lambs were not "unborn" since who wants to slaughter a ewe at term just to get her unborn lambs for the fur market?  Most likely the lambs were newborn or very young.  Since "Persians" (old Iran) like to eat lamb that is milk fed, the lamb pelts were probably from that age lambs after the lambs were slaughtered for meat.  They were probably fat tailed lambs since those would have been the breed raised many years ago in that part of the world.  With no fur market here in the lower 48 states the only fur sales now are in Alaska.  

While fat tailed sheep may be prized for ethnic markets, the Karakul is a small breed with a large fatty deposit above or below the tail.  In its native desert habitat the Karakul can store nutrients for survival in that fatty tissue like a camel.   

Shearling is from a lamb of an age that has just had its first shearing.  Usually 6-12 months old.  The sheared wool is extremely thick and plush.  Heavy jackets used to be made of shearlig with the wool side turned in to wear against the body.


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## farmerjan (Jan 30, 2021)

Think the "Marlboro Man's shearling coat".....


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## secuono (Jan 30, 2021)

The lambs are killed at birth or the ewes are killed & the lambs removed to get the most "luxurious" wool coat out of them. 
Obviously, they do keep some to raise and continue production for the future.


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## Ridgetop (Jan 31, 2021)

Pretty wasteful to me, but if the hide market $$ was better than the meat market $$, killing the lambs early for their hides would have been the profitable thing to do.  No place for excess emotion in farming.  Ram lambs would have been the option to slaughter.  

Persian Lamb has not been available for many many years I think.  Along with the rest of the fur market here in the US no one wears fur anymore.  Probably contributing to the extinction of the mink.  While leather shoes and jackets are still ok, why is wearing fur looked on as bad?  I can understand the elimination of wild caught fur to protect species in the wild, but farmed skins?  There is no doubt that fur is much warmer in frigid climates, just like wool, and down.  Wool can be harvested from living animals, that is not the case with goose down and lots of people use down coverlets on their beds and don't think anything about it.

Is this another instance of political insanity?  Or just people not being educated in the business of farming and ranching?


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## SA Farm (Jan 31, 2021)

I’m assuming lack of education. I’ve met far too many people who have no idea where milk, meat, or eggs really come from other than that they just appear at the grocery store 🤷‍♀️ 
Not hard to convince those folks that fur is cruel while overlooking everything else...Or that plastic “meat” is healthy 😝 (I have no problems with vegetarians or people who won’t eat meat for their own personal health or moral reasons, but at least be educated about it - or buy from local people instead of supporting factory farms if that’s possible!)
And don’t even get me started on the extremists that won’t wear wool or other natural fibres because they think shearing or combing a rabbit or goat is cruel


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## Ridgetop (Jan 31, 2021)

My personal opinion is that classes on agriculture, agri-business, and its importance should be required in all states beginning in grade school.  Forget all those worthless studies on feminine studies (take note - there are no classes on masculine studies which as a woman I would be interested in!), gender studies, minority studies (which I think just point out differences and cause reverse racism) and a few other courses which don't seem to be anything other than a way of pandering to  political correctness.

Classes on agriculture might show where food comes from, teach children that farming and ranching does not "rape" the land, and teach them that America is not entirely responsible for "climate change", "global warming", and world hunger.  

Just my thoughts.


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## Baymule (Jan 31, 2021)

Come to think of it, my great aunt had a "mouton" coat. She claimed it was made from newborn lamb. I remember that it was very soft. I don't know whatever happened to it. When she died, my mom got a mink coat with a $4500 price tag still on it, I have it now. I've never worn it. I guess I oughta put it on, the next cold spell and go to walmart wearing my farm boots, jeans and sweat shirt. LOL LOL


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## Mini Horses (Jan 31, 2021)

My county has AG classes in elementary thru high school.  They raise gardens and chickens.


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## thistlebloom (Jan 31, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Come to think of it, my great aunt had a "mouton" coat. She claimed it was made from newborn lamb. I remember that it was very soft. I don't know whatever happened to it. When she died, my mom got a mink coat with a $4500 price tag still on it, I have it now. I've never worn it. I guess I oughta put it on, the next cold spell and go to walmart wearing my farm boots, jeans and sweat shirt. LOL LOL



Oh yeah, absolutely! I might pay money to see you in your insulated overalls and mink coat.


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## Kusanar (Feb 1, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Come to think of it, my great aunt had a "mouton" coat. She claimed it was made from newborn lamb. I remember that it was very soft. I don't know whatever happened to it. When she died, my mom got a mink coat with a $4500 price tag still on it, I have it now. I've never worn it. I guess I oughta put it on, the next cold spell and go to walmart wearing my farm boots, jeans and sweat shirt. LOL LOL


I have a mink stole, fur hat that I think is rabbit died in various patterns (some looks like leopard), and a rabbit coat.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 1, 2021)

Baymule said:


> When she died, my mom got a mink coat with a $4500 price tag still on it, I have it now. I've never worn it. I guess I oughta put it on, the next cold spell and go to walmart wearing my farm boots, jeans and sweat shirt. LOL LOL


I have a milk jacket too.  And my grandmother had her mink stole made into a leather and milk coat.  Both are hanging in my closet but the heat has done bad things to them.  The skins get old, dry out, and split.  However when I come to Texas, I will duct tape the hides together on the inside, and wear it around the ranch!  Can't wear it anywhere around here because someone will attack me for wearing fur!!!   Stupid really, the animals are already dead.  


Mini Horses said:


> My county has AG classes in elementary thru high school. They raise gardens and chickens.


We have AG classes here in some jr. high/high schools, but they are electives, and do not really teach the business of AG or its necessity.


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## Kusanar (Feb 1, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> Can't wear it anywhere around here because someone will attack me for wearing fur!!! Stupid really, the animals are already dead.


Exactly. There is a museum / store in Canada that I follow on FB and have purchased a few things from. They will occasionally sell a lion hide rug or something like that and they always get bashed. All of their items like that are vintage so not killed recently for their pelt but their way of thinking is, this lion died in the 60's, the hide still looks good, would it be better to restore this already dead hide and sell it to someone that wants something like this or to retire or destroy it and have someone go shoot another lion to make their rug. 

I personally don't have an issue with people wearing farmed fur, I'm not a fan or trappers because of the suffering that those traps can cause and the fact that they don't even always check traps for days so the animal could starve or freeze to death while afraid and in pain, but fur farmed animals are much like farm raised livestock, they have a reasonably good life and then 1 bad moment in 1 day. My understanding is that most mink are gassed, so they may not even have a bad moment. 

I would MUCH rather see someone wearing a real fur than a synthetic one. Synthetic fur is plastic and sheds micro plastics which we all know are becoming a problem pretty much everywhere. Real fur is warmer, sustainable, and can be composted if no longer wanted.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 1, 2021)

Absolutely!  

When mink farms were abolished, did the animal rights activists realize that all those minks would be euthanized?  Or care?  And a complete group of people lose their livelihoods?

Like the 'spotted Owl controversy years ago when the animal rights activists insisted that logging stop because they said the spotted Owl was endangered by logging old growth forests.  After ruining lives and economies across the northwest, *it was discovered that Spotted Owls preferred to breed and nest in NEW GROWTH FORESTS.  OOPS!      Apologies or retractions?  Nope!!!  

Many "animal rights activists" and so called "ecologists" have no real knowledge of forests, ecology or animals.  They just love "cute", "cuddly" animals.  The whole Disney concept of endowing animals with human emotions and speech.  

*


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## Kusanar (Feb 1, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> When mink farms were abolished, did the animal rights activists realize that all those minks would be euthanized? Or care? And a complete group of people lose their livelihoods?


Actually, it gets better than that... They like to release them into the wild with some pretty obviously bad results.

Check this out https://slate.com/technology/2017/07/thousands-of-minks-die-after-being-set-free.html


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## Ridgetop (Feb 1, 2021)

*In the immortal words of Baymule:  "You can't cure stupid!"*


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## farmerjan (Feb 1, 2021)

I basically agree with all the comments on fur and wearing skins/pelts/fur from farm raised animals.  I do have to disagree somewhat with some of the comments on trappers and their lack of frequent checking of their traps.  I agree that some probably don't.  Yes the animal is hurt, afraid, and it is not the most humane in some cases.  BUT, my brother ran a trap line and he checked it daily.  I did all his skinning when he dislocated and further injured his shoulder.  We were over run with muskrats.  There were 5 ponds that were within walking distance from our house.  The muskrats were destroying the banks of the ponds, undermining the dam, doing major damage to walkways and roadways around the ponds.  He trapped them and cleaned out the huge numbers to where it was more manageable.  I know of several guys in Texas that simply shoot beavers that continue to destroy their fields, roads, and such by building dams on every cotton picking stream there is.  They said the numbers have exploded in the past few years.  No,  or few, natural predators. 
So it is a 2 edged sword.  I prefer the traps that drown the animals rather than the ones that leg catch and the animal suffers longer.  But, in the same thought, I have watched coons go through a house of half grown chicks and tear off wings and legs and I had to go through and kill them off in the name of mercy.  Yes, the coons were doing what coons do, but they are very destructive.  Beavers do what they do, but they are very destructive if they are building dams where they will create havoc.  Because we have "intruded" on nature, we are  the ones that are causing the disturbance. 
Mink are VERY DESTRUCTIVE and will kill for the sake of killing.  In the wild, they are one of the best killing machines.

When do you think that they are going to come after people that use their rabbit skins?  I mean, you kill the rabbit for food, why not use the skin.
And I sure like my leather.... and it is utilizing a by product of the animal that we are killing for meat.  Whether it is a farm raised cow, or a wild deer for venison.
Granted, most do not eat the muskrats, or the beavers, but they are often trapped because they have become a nuisance  where they are.  Partly because we have caused the lost of many of the predators that would keep those populations in check.  It is not like we have the wholesale trapping like years ago for the pelts.  If you want to get up in arms, look at what was done to the buffalo herds for the skins and the tongues.... wasting the rest of the animal. 
I do agree with not killing endangered species, and such, for just their skin, or like the elephants, for their ivory without using the rest of the animal.  Funny thing is, the US is not the biggest culprit.... many of the animals are killed for Chinese medicines and potions and cures..... not for use here.  Yes, we do use and import some, but much is for far eastern cultures. 
Funny how many of the ones that get into the illicit fur and by product trades,  are those that have all the money and they are the ones telling us we are not allowed to have it... how unacceptable it is to have fur coats or anything. 
I am with you on not having all this stuff made out of plastics..... at least the furs/pelts and all that will TOTALLY  bio-degrade.....


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## Kusanar (Feb 1, 2021)

farmerjan said:


> I do have to disagree somewhat with some of the comments on trappers and their lack of frequent checking of their traps.


I know that some do check traps daily, and that is actually required by law in some parts, but bad trappers do exist and a bad trapper can cause a lot of suffering. Traps are also somewhat indiscriminate in what they catch. You can set a certain type of trap for a certain type of animal and most of the time it will work, but when something big gets a leg caught in a full body trap meant for a smaller animal it's not pretty. I also agree that traps like beaver traps that are underwater and drown the animal are probably the best, then the animal is only in pain for as long as it can hold it's breath.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 1, 2021)

Live traps were used here for trapping coyotes 30 years ago.  Then the animal control officer would shoot the coyote in the trap, haul out the carcass and reset the trap.  Next thing you know, that is "animal cruelty" and the coyotes were removed and set free to cause destruction elsewhere.  

One of the most ridiculous things ever occurred with our Los Angeles City Council members - Raccoons and possums were becoming a problem in neighborhoods.  They were being trapped in live traps and euthanized.  They also carried rabies and a few cases of the disease were found among the trapped animals.  However one council member belonged to PETA.  She brought up the "inhumane killing of these poor defenseless animals" at a meeting and the City Council devised a more humane approach.  As soon as a certain number of possums and raccoons were caught (and kept alive at the shelters) the City Council chartered a large helicopter, flew the animals into the national forest, and released them in an area closed to the public.  Several members and a PETA guest  rode along to watch and took photos of their "rescue" efforts.  They also bragged in speeches about their "good deeds".  Needless to say no permits were obtained from the forest service.  Complaints were made by the US Forest Service to the City Council with demands to desist.  The City Council (being good Angelenos in public service who thought themselves above any laws) disregarded the Forest Service and its court orders. 

It turned out that the Council members had elected to illegally release its "rescue" possums and raccoons in the one remaining area of habitat where an endangered frog or toad still lived.  Since they ignored the Forest Service's injunctions, the endangered frog or toad has dwindled to extinction.  Los Angeles City was slapped with a large government fine which we as citizens of Los Angeles had to pay from our taxes.  The politicians continued to serve on the council and Peta awarded its member a citation for saving the lives of numerus innocent furry predators.  

Politicians!  They always know best for the rest of the world.


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## B&B Happy goats (Feb 1, 2021)

Ya can't  fix stupid... ughhhh....politicians


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## thistlebloom (Feb 1, 2021)

If we are talking about inflicting suffering, I'm sure we've all seen wildlife shows where the predator captures it's prey and eats it alive, tearing it's abdomen open. There is no humane instant death going on there. 

It's incorrect to paint all trappers and hunters with such broad strokes. How can anyone know how each trapper operates? It can only be generalized by assumption and colored in by existing biases.
I tend to think that if it's your livelihood you will err on the side of doing things correctly. Yes, when humanity is involved you'll get a spectrum of behaviors, but I for one am weary of focusing on a few negatives and throwing out the good with the bad.


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## Kusanar (Feb 1, 2021)

thistlebloom said:


> If we are talking about inflicting suffering, I'm sure we've all seen wildlife shows where the predator captures it's prey and eats it alive, tearing it's abdomen open. There is no humane instant death going on there.
> 
> It's incorrect to paint all trappers and hunters with such broad strokes. How can anyone know how each trapper operates? It can only be generalized by assumption and colored in by existing biases.
> I tend to think that if it's your livelihood you will err on the side of doing things correctly. Yes, when humanity is involved you'll get a spectrum of behaviors, but I for one am weary of focusing on a few negatives and throwing out the good with the bad.


Understand and agree to a point. I was raised in a family of hunters where you are taught to always be sure of what you are shooting at and what is behind it, don't pull the trigger if you are not 100% sure. You can never be anywhere close to that sure with a trap, it just weirds me out to set a trap and walk away without knowing if something is in the trap and hurting or not. 

I understand that animals in the wild are often not the most effective killers and will cause great suffering when they hunt, but humans can and should do better than that. I mean, this is why I feed my cats cat food and don't just turn a chicken loose for them, yes, they would kill it, but not cleanly, I don't know for sure that the meat in their food is killed humanely, but it probably gets a better death than being ripped apart while alive.


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## thistlebloom (Feb 1, 2021)

To be more clear I know there are idiots out there. They seem to get the headlines. But for every idiot there are probably 10 conscientious people who never get mentioned.


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## Baymule (Feb 1, 2021)

Has the OP even come back? HEY! We got far away from fur sheep! I think I’ll put on my mink coat and go check on my sheep. LOL


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## farmerjan (Feb 1, 2021)

Nope, OP has not come back and was last seen making that post.  It did get us on a roll though on the subject....


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## Ridgetop (Feb 2, 2021)

But we thoroughly answered the question of what is a "fur" sheep!  Actually fur and hair are pretty much the same thing - i.e. pelts, just the texture of hair/wool/fur it carries.


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## misfitmorgan (Feb 3, 2021)

I've always been on the pro leather and fur side of things. The people I know who trap do check their traps daily so I dont have a problem with their furs. A lot of people get hides tanned here, meat rabbits, cows, deer, sheep, I've even see goat hides. I like fur and I like leather, I like and eat meat why would I be against using more of the animal that is already being killed to be eaten?? 

To many people just want to "save the animals" without looking at anything else. Just look at any no kill shelter to see how wrong this is. Our local shelter at all times has over 125 cats, they adopt out around 4-5 cats a month. These cats are living in a shelter with little to no human interaction and no quality of life. They have cats that have been there for years and will probly die of old age there. It just makes no sense, you are not helping the animals, they are taking up resources, space, and money that could be used for better purposes. They have to use so much space for the cats that they can only have max 12 dogs at a time. They rarely accept cats for surrender because they are so often at capacity.

The people that are anti-fur, anti-leather, anti-meat, anti-egg, anti feather, anti- anything from an animal have no real clue how the world works. They have no idea how many "animals" they are eating in their diets. The percentage of bugs and other foreign objects allowed in their vegan or vegetarian food would make their head spin. No consumer should ever read the "Food Defect Levels Handbook" the FDA issues. 

There will never be a time when the planet as a whole is 100% vegan, so yeah I wear leather and I wear fur, I use a down comforter and own a wool coat. Those who dont like it can kiss my 🍑. The more parts of an animal I can use the better, why lessen the animals worth for other peoples comfort? As mentioned plastic clothes and plastic fur is horrible for the environment.  My personal favorite fur is rabbit and shearling, however I've never felt mink.


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## Baymule (Feb 3, 2021)

X2!


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## Kusanar (Feb 3, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> My personal favorite fur is rabbit and shearling, however I've never felt mink.


My mink is an antique so I'm not sure if it feels different now than when it was first harvested but it's not as soft as rabbit. It's more sleek and shiny feeling but less soft and fluffy if that makes any sense at all. More like a course furred outdoor living shorthair cat.


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## misfitmorgan (Feb 3, 2021)

I've seen live mink and I imagine the shiny guard hair isnt super soft but slick. I think antique mink stored well would feel the same as new within reason. I know my dad has deer from when i was a kid and it feels no different then newly done hides/mounts furwise. No im not saying I am an antique, but they are at least 30yrs old.


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## Kusanar (Feb 3, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> I've seen live mink and I imagine the shiny guard hair isnt super soft but slick. I think antique mink stored well would feel the same as new within reason. I know my dad has deer from when i was a kid and it feels no different then newly done hides/mounts furwise. No im not saying I am an antique, but they are at least 30yrs old.


You know what? The mink I have feels a lot like the softer parts of a DEER... I was trying to think of where else I had felt that feeling. 

My mink belonged to my mom's grandmother... so who knows how old it is.. My mom is in her 70's so it could easily be 100-150 years old and probably hasn't been properly stored for much of that time.


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## misfitmorgan (Feb 3, 2021)

Kusanar said:


> You know what? The mink I have feels a lot like the softer parts of a DEER... I was trying to think of where else I had felt that feeling.
> 
> My mink belonged to my mom's grandmother... so who knows how old it is.. My mom is in her 70's so it could easily be 100-150 years old and probably hasn't been properly stored for much of that time.


Proper fur storage is in a dark closet, so likely it has been stored properly.

Ok so i have an idea what mink feels like then. 

Another point in fur's favor is it last a long long long time like 50yrs, no other garmet type lasts as long without clear wear or being downright un-useable. The exception to this would be rabbit fur. When I lived in greece I got a leather coat with rabbit fur trim on the collar and cuffs and gloves with rabbit trimmed cuffs, I loved them. They only lasted about 3yrs before the fur was obviously wore off on the edges of the cuffs. My ex-MIL had a full length rabbit skin coat, it was lush. There is a store a few hours from me that sell fur blankets and throws, they are amazing but not cheap. One of their most popular are their coyote pelt queen size quilts, basically pelts sewn onto a quilt backing and they cost about $400.


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## Kusanar (Feb 3, 2021)

misfitmorgan said:


> One of their most popular are their coyote pelt queen size quilts, basically pelts sewn onto a quilt backing and they cost about $400.


Apparently there are places that have Possum skin blankets made like that. Now, not the North American Opossum, the soft cuddly Australian version. In Aus they are native and protected, but someone imported them to NZ for the fur trade, they got loose, and are causing a bunch of environmental issues so they are treated much like we do rats with the added bonus of nice fur when you kill them. 

I would assume for a coat with rabbit fur trim, it would be easy enough to attach the rabbit in such a way it could be replaced when needed.


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## misfitmorgan (Feb 3, 2021)

Kusanar said:


> Apparently there are places that have Possum skin blankets made like that. Now, not the North American Opossum, the soft cuddly Australian version. In Aus they are native and protected, but someone imported them to NZ for the fur trade, they got loose, and are causing a bunch of environmental issues so they are treated much like we do rats with the added bonus of nice fur when you kill them.
> 
> I would assume for a coat with rabbit fur trim, it would be easy enough to attach the rabbit in such a way it could be replaced when needed.



Probly very nice blankets too. If you search coyote blanket you can see them, actually really pretty. Locally coyote's are a shoot on sight critter and no permit is required. Just to many coyote's atm.


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