# Urinary calculi



## Moody (Aug 19, 2018)

I have a 6 month old wether. I wethered him at 8 weeks. He was eating some allstock, still drinking all the milk he could, grass hay (coastal, they do not like it but it is all that is readily available around here) and some alfalfa hay as well as some forage. I moved them and well, it is no excuse but I have slacked on loose minerals and ammonium chloride added to boys food since moving them a couple of months ago. 

I went out of town for a couple days and came back to a goat who seemed to be in pain. Grinding teeth, mostly in a urinating position but nothing coming out and loud yelling while trying. No appetite for fresh forage or grain and not taking milk from momma. I drenched with 1 tsp AC mixed in 20 cc water with a splash of juice twice that day. Next day no improvement. But he looked like he had eaten a lot, not skinny. Again drenched that day but he seemed more comfortable. Some grinding but very weak. Next day he had taken a lot of milk, showed interest in eating, but looks bloated. With as little as I have seen him eat the last few days, he should look thin. He stays away from the herd. Does not cry out anymore and hasnt for a couple of days. I have a feeling it was already too late when I noticed. He was likely blocked completely. I have left him with the herd for comfort. I cry when I check on him, hoping possibly I misdiagnosed his problem. I have failed to feed him properly and he is paying the price. I feel awful. I cannot run this wether I was keeping for a companion to my buck in for several hundred dollars of vet work. My reading has discovered that if it is UC, he likely would have recurring issues, IF he could even have been relieved of the stones this time. Big IF because a lot of times it is too costly to pursue surgery to try to fix it. It needs to be avoided to begin with. 

I guess I would like to know if you think I could have possibly misdiagnosed him and if not, suggestions on how to proceed? He is withdrawn, but still seems to get up easily but has discharge from his nose. Looks maybe a bit bigger each time I check on him. 

There are no goat vets on the area anyway. I am so saddened by my failure to feed properly and have added AC to my other buckband wethers feed and of course minerals are there now. 

I have been extremely lucky for 4 years with goats in that I have not had this type of issue.


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## Moody (Aug 19, 2018)

By AC I mean ammonium chloride btw.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 19, 2018)

I am sorry about your wether.   Have you taken his vitals?  Is he running a temp?  Have you seen him pee   This is critical as he needs to have a cath to relieve & remove the urine or it will be a possible ruptured bladder.   

A while back I copied this from a post -- and while I nor poster are a vet, this is apparently a "home remedy" which may help. It is NOT intended to replace vet care but, since he needs help and no vet available at the moment it may help you to help him.   I see nothing in the makeup that seems harmful and I kept it "in case".


you see him straining to urinate you can try this to help dissolve the stones. But hopefully you won't ever need this. Of course if he was entirely blocked you would just call a vet ASAP.

*Home Remedy:* _This is an option for treatment of Urinary Calculi. This treatment in no way guarantees the successful treatment of your animal._
½ red onion
Juice from 3 lemons
6 garlic pods
¼ cup vinegar

Chop onion and garlic. Combine all ingredients in a container and put on the stove to boil. Heat until the garlic and onion are translucent. Remove and blend the mixture until liquefied. Divide the mixture into 4 equal parts. Give 1 part of the mixture by mouth immediately. Give the remaining doses by mouth as follows: 12 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours after the first treatment. It is imperative that you give all 4 doses of the treatment even if you see improvement after the first treatment


Babsbag on 7/23/16 goat thread.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 19, 2018)

Here are two links for info.   Onion Creek is a wealth of knowledge site. The second article has graffic pics.  Pls let us know how your little guy comes along.   I am not suggesting you do these procedures but you will know what the vet will need to do and the urgency of this situation if it is blocked.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculi06
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/urinarycalculiin.html.html


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 19, 2018)

I would be concerned that other goats at risk.  Does get stones too, just usually pass them easier.  Look at calcium to phosphorus ratio of entire diet.  You want 2 to 1 ratio.  Usually with grass, browse, grain you use a mineral mix that is 2 to 1 as balancer.  But if you feed much alfalfa (which is high in calcium) you have a 1 to 1 mineral mix.  You can get into trouble, too with alfalfa being high in protein coupled with grain you are feeding overburdening kidneys.  You might want to look over your feed program with a ruminant nutritionist.  I would want to add ammonium chloride to ration quick to head off further problems.


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## Moody (Aug 20, 2018)

It sounds like you all think I have diagnosed him correctly. 

I have seen the removal of the "pizzle" as a means to help but I have not seen him pee at all. I am also hesitant to try to manipulate his penis out to cut that bit off close to the head without anesthetic. I am afraid it would take more hands than I have available to assist and that requires more experience with this issue in  particular than I have. I know I cannot catheter to relieve pressure on his bladder. I first saw him like this wednesday and really thought it was already too far along at that point for measures to remove blockage. But I did drench with the ammonium chloride. With his tummy looking so full I suspected his bladder was already leaking then. I was afraid he would pass soon then and that was wednesday. Here it is almost 6 days later. 


When I first saw him I changed the other two boys diet (one 9 month old nubian buck and one 6 month old pygmy wether that the neighbor foisted on me at a day old). I also started cutting the pygmy's grain by feeding him separately. The little bit of alfalfa hay I had got wet (ruined now), so alfalfa has not been offered in almost a week. I know my pygmy wether is particularly at risk and like I said, started top dressing the boys grain with ammonium chloride. Also moved them to a small pasture they have not had access to in quite some time and they will enjoy a small pickup full of fresh cut brush today. 

The wether is off by himself but does not seem to be in pain like the first 2 days. I will go out later to check for temp.  I saw him go for some water yesterday but he has only drained his momma's udder once since this started on wednesday and even that was 3 days ago (that he last seemed to have drank a lot of her milk).


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## Moody (Aug 20, 2018)

Donna R. Raybon said:


> I would be concerned that other goats at risk.  Does get stones too, just usually pass them easier.  Look at calcium to phosphorus ratio of entire diet.  You want 2 to 1 ratio.  Usually with grass, browse, grain you use a mineral mix that is 2 to 1 as balancer.  But if you feed much alfalfa (which is high in calcium) you have a 1 to 1 mineral mix.  You can get into trouble, too with alfalfa being high in protein coupled with grain you are feeding overburdening kidneys.  You might want to look over your feed program with a ruminant nutritionist.  I would want to add ammonium chloride to ration quick to head off further problems.



I was tossing about half a flake of alfalfa morning and evening in with the coastal they do not like to make them eat it better. I have not had this problem in my bucks I have kept in the past 4 years since I started. This is the first wether I have kept. Normally I sell them at 4-5 months old.


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## Moody (Aug 20, 2018)

No mucous from his nose this morning. He tried to eat some grain I was giving to the does but spit it out. I do not know what water belly feels like. His sides look a bit wobbly when I gently tap on them. 

I kind of wonder if it could be maybe bloat and I just have not seen him pee.....


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## Southern by choice (Aug 20, 2018)

This is probably the best and most informative article on Urinary Calculi. It is written by Terry Hutchens.
This is what we give all our clients.
It is in a power point /pdf presentation.

http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Documents/SLIDES/Urinary calculi.pdf


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## Mini Horses (Aug 20, 2018)

Calculi & bloat can both be painful and both can cause death.  if the bladder does leak/rupture, it will contaminate his gut and takes a few days to completely shut him down.  You could wrap a white towel around him and if he pees it will show  Do we think you have correctly diagnosed?  Can't say that but for sure not peeing is not good....and that is a sign of blockage, can't go. IF IT IS calculi and he is not fully blocked, there is a very slight chance you can work to get them dissolved & he mat get enough relief through his ever slightly open urethra to prevent rupture.  Maybe enough to save his life.  Maybe.

I don't know what else to suggest beyond the vet as we cannot evaluate him.  It is sad for you to be in this position and I hope things take a turn for the better, especially since a vet does not appear to be an option.   Prayers for you both.  Let us know what happens.


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## Moody (Aug 21, 2018)

Mini Horses said:


> Calculi & bloat can both be painful and both can cause death.  if the bladder does leak/rupture, it will contaminate his gut and takes a few days to completely shut him down.  You could wrap a white towel around him and if he pees it will show  Do we think you have correctly diagnosed?  Can't say that but for sure not peeing is not good....and that is a sign of blockage, can't go. IF IT IS calculi and he is not fully blocked, there is a very slight chance you can work to get them dissolved & he mat get enough relief through his ever slightly open urethra to prevent rupture.  Maybe enough to save his life.  Maybe.
> 
> I don't know what else to suggest beyond the vet as we cannot evaluate him.  It is sad for you to be in this position and I hope things take a turn for the better, especially since a vet does not appear to be an option.   Prayers for you both.  Let us know what happens.



Honestly I thought it was too late a week ago. He just keeps plodding along. He looks sick now, if I hadnt seen him last wednesday looking like he was struggling to pee I would have assumed pneumonia or something. His right eye is ooxing mucous. He has little appetite, is withdrawn. He released a little stool today and it was blood tinged. Maybe my local vet who put down my two day old goat with a brain issue can help in some way.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 21, 2018)

Hope you can find him some relief...


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## Moody (Aug 21, 2018)

Ok well right this moment he is up, with his head through the fence drinking out of a water trough. I noticed a bit of blood in the little stool i saw him release this morning.

Here is the new development. I see drops of fluid slowly coming out of his penis. IF his bladder burst or leaked, could this fluid be somehow going around his urinary tract and leaking out (he will be put down) or is that not possible at all and he needs antibiotics and treatment?


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## Mini Horses (Aug 21, 2018)

CALL YOUR VET, PLEASE.  He need help -- either treatment for something (??) or humanely euthanized if a big issue.


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## Moody (Aug 22, 2018)

Mini Horses said:


> CALL YOUR VET, PLEASE.  He need help -- either treatment for something (??) or humanely euthanized if a big issue.


I did. The local one who put down my defective baby was too busy. 

The other livestock vet was supposed to call me back but did not. 

The little guy is gone now.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 22, 2018)

I am so very sorry.   RIP little one!


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## Southern by choice (Aug 22, 2018)

Very sorry.
I know it is hard but a bullet to the head is more humane than vet euthanasia and the animal need not suffer to death. 7 one thousands of a second.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 22, 2018)

Hard lessons.  We have all been there!  I have had quite a few over my life.


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