# Livestock Guardian Dogs??  Should I get one? (more pics)



## dianneS

I'm considering getting a livestock guardian dog.  We don't have a huge problem with preditors and I believe that just the mere presence of a large dog would be enough to deter the preditors that we do have.  I have lost chickens in the daytime to a fox, we've had a skunk break in the chicken house and I'm afraid that something might try to get my pygmy goats too.  I just want to be sure that the breed I choose won't potentially try to harm my baby goats, mini horse or chickens.

I'm considering a 3/4 Karakachan 1/4 Great Pyrenese puppy that is 5 months old and has been raised with goats, chickens, cattle and horses.  He's already showing signs of being a great protector. 

I'm just not sure if I'll be able to fully trust a dog of that size with my baby goats?

Should I even bother with a dog, or could I be putting my animals at even more of a risk than they currently are?  I'm doing a lot of reading on training these dogs, the breeder seems confident that I won't have any problems.  I'm still not sure what to do?


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## Run-A-Muck Ranch

YES!!!!!! 

(sorry I honestly only read the title and had to post, only because we have Great Pyrenese, Great Pyrense/collie cross, Newfoundland/St. Bernard cross, Aust. Shepard/Rat Terrior/blue tick heeler cross, and a boxer/bulldog cross)....so YES you need to get a dog......


now I will go back and actually read your post...lol


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## Run-A-Muck Ranch

ok now i've read your post......

I will still say YES....
getting the dog as puppies will also help you get used to the dog as he gets larger....the Great Pyrenese are WONDERFUL dogs...I love ours, they are big goofy block heads at times, but they keep ya laughing too....Ours have done a great job with all the animals..
All kinds of poultry(chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, guineas), horses, goats(pygmy, dairy, and boar), sheep, even the llamas....
the dogs got along great with all the animals.


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## dianneS

I'm still concerned about my house dogs though.  I have a fear aggressive Papillon that I cannot allow near big dogs.  

I've read a lot of good things about LGD's and not too much bad, but I have come across stories of these dogs killing chickens, goats, biting people etc.  That scares me.  I've never had a dog with an aggressive bone in its body before and I'm just not sure if our preditor problem is a big enough problem to take a chance on a big potentially dangerous dog?  

I'm still weighing the pros and cons.


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## Roll farms

Here is a link to a site w/ GREAT LGD info.
http://lgd.org/

If you get the dog looking for bad things to happen, bad things will happen.
Have faith in it and in your ability to be patient for 1-2 years as he goes through the puppy phase, until magically he'll wake up one day, realize his purpose and be the best dog ever.

They aren't instant guardians, they aren't miracle workers, and they need help and guidance to get from puppy to LGD.

We have 2 toy poodles who occasionally go into our goat pens, the dogs know they are "mine" and to leave them be.  You introduce EVERYTHING to them and let them know they are yours.

Our Pyr male will jump in the air after chicken hawks and helps clean newborns.  
We've not lost ONE bird or goat in the years we've had LGD's.  
I will never be w/out one again.


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## big brown horse

Here is my LGD story, I hope this helps you with your decision...

I started with a 1 year old rescued St. Bernard Pier mix that was turned into a high kill shelter.  She was a psyco dog from you know where  because she was starved, abused etc.  She has no St. Bernard qualities except her markings.  (Roll Farms, that is why I was asking you about your pup's markings.)

She is now nicknamed the bouncer, b/c she wont allow anyone into her yard (a fenced in acre) that "isn't on the list."

This dog was a hard nut to crack, but with time we did it.  My chickens, ducks, sheep and cat are all safe at night b/c of her.  She wasn't raised around livestock, so she had to learn how to adjust and it wasn't easy.  Our time and effort paid off 10 fold!!

The dog you are describing sounds like a dream come true with his early experience.  

Roll Farms is right though, you have to introduce all new animals and he/she will need help and guidance .  I'm not an experienced LGD handler, but I was consistant and firm with her and doled out tons of love when she did as she was told.

I would NEVER own any livestock without a LGD.  We live out in the boonies in the foothills of the Olympic mountians and we have never had a problem with preditors...though I have seen my share of coyotes, racoons and brown bears.

Now a "pet" she is not.  She doesn't want to come into the house and she is not the mushy type...nope, that is what your lap dog is for.   She doesn't even go into her "shed" to sleep.  The grass is her dog house.  When she sleeps she sleeps with one eye open like a cat.

As a matter of fact, she is out there barking along the fence line as I type this.  Coyotes beware!!

Oh, one other thing, Kate is awesome with my daughter and loves smaller kids too.  She could care less about adults even me...I don't know if all LGDs are like that or not.  I know she would protect my child though no matter what.  

Good luck with whatever decision you make.  If this pup isn't right for you, I strongly urge you to find another one that is.  Having Kate out there allows me to sleep well at night.


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## ohiofarmgirl

but before you run right out..... (the voice of caution here)

go and read the predator section on BYC..... a LGD is not for everyone. i know you said you have goats but the principals are the same. make sure you are well informed and can handle a big dog. no they are not pets but you still have to be able to handle them. what about your barncats? you are wise to wonder if your little house dog would be in danger so you'd need to make sure you can train your LGD to identify what's yours and what is not. you cant just throw them over the fence and expect everything to work out (some people think this is true). make sure you work with the breeder to find out when the 'guarding' instincts will kick in - for some its 5 months old for some its later.

there is a gal i know who is desperately trying to rehome her LGD b/c it keeps attacking her house dogs. and for every 'golly these are great' there is someone (probably someone with too much dog) who has a horror story. 

me - i have two brontosaurus sized GSD who keep our property safe - they work with me everyday with the livestock. but our next dog will be an anatolian just for the critters. 

good luck!


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## dianneS

I know, for about every five wonderful stories I read about them, I hear one bad one.  The odds are greater that they are good dogs not bad, but the "horror stories" really scare the crap out of me!

I have experience training dogs, but haven't had a really big dog in a long time.  I've never owned a dog with any tendency toward aggression.  Every dog I've ever had, big or small would lick an intruder to death before he would ever bite!  My dogs are always super social and friendly too, an aloof dog would take time for me to adjust to.

I'm going to meet these puppies today.  Apparently they've been "on the job" for some time and are doing great.  I'll feel a lot better about my decision once I get to meet them and experience their personalities.  I don't think I'll be deciding today yet, I will need to ruminate on it some more!


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## big brown horse

Good luck to you!!

We got lucky with all of our dogs, all rescued St. Bernard mixes, they love our cat.  (They were all female, I wonder if that has anything to do with it?)


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## lilhill

You DON'T want one that doesn't want you to handle him/her.  My LGD trots up to me for a pet every time I go into the goat pens.  When I tell her it's enough, she goes over to the middle of the herd and lays down to go on watch again.


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## dianneS

Okay, I met some puppies this afternoon and the father of the pups.

They are amazing dogs!  The three puppies that are available are currently living with goats and chickens and some steers.  They stay with the goats though.  They are basically goats in dog suits!  Two pups went with the goats up over the hill and out into the pasture while one pup stayed behind with the remaining goats in the pen!

One puppy, that the owner is keeping, was in another pasture with some steers and goats.  That puppy stuck right with those goats, only running after a heron that landed near the pond.

The big Daddy dog was awesome.  He greeted us in his pasture with his tail wagging and stood there and enjoyed us petting his enormous head a while before he headed back to his herd.  He spotted a hawk and kept his eye on it until it flew away.  He laid in the goat pen for a while, then went up the hill to the goats, finally ran back down the hill to say goodbye to us before we left the pasture and then back out to the goats!

I met the three puppies up close and they were very friendly (jumped up a lot) but when we left their area, they went back to their goats and got back to work.  I only barking when they spotted some mice under the goat pen.

I'm still undecided and have some phone calls to make before I make my decision.  I'm calling a member of the Karakachan Dog Association with more questions.

Still unsure at this time, but I'm really impressed with these dogs so far!


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## dianneS

Oh, there is one concern though.  The owner/breeder of these dogs told me that they need no training????

Apparently Karakachens are just bred to do their jobs and its instinctive.  If they are kept with goats/sheep etc from birth, they need no training at all.  She said that with her first Karakachen, she was told by the breeder to take him home and throw him in the pasture.  She did, and he did great!  He just got a little beat up by the goats is all.

I don't know if I like the idea of just turning a dog loose with my goats???
That's why I'm calling the Karakachen Dog Association for some more advice and guidance.


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## lupinfarm

You can have the one that has been plaguing us. We have an Akbash breeder on a road over from us and he lets his Akbash's roam 700 acres with his cows/sheep/goats/chickens and that stupid dog has been coming up and bothering our goats, and dogs every night.


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## Roll farms

ALL LGD need some 'training' to know what's acceptable and what isn't.
I guarantee you any pup, regardless of breed, will chase / play rough (sometimes too rough) with any critter that runs by while it's still a puppy.
We let ours know early on that that's NOT ok.

ALL LGD need monitored in new situations...new goats added, new babies born.  

I've heard horror stories of "terrible dogs who ate a newborn kid." and all I ever think is, "Who's the idiot who left a dog alone w/ a pregnant doe w/out being certain he'd be ok w/ the situation???"

Don't ASSume that just b/c they can make great guardians, that they will be...some just aren't, and never will be.  (Just like some greyhounds won't run and some beagles won't hunt.)

IMHO, it's usually the people who don't monitor / correct who generally have the horror stories to tell.

It really sounds like you're doing lots of research and trying to learn...I think you'll do fine.

I'm sure there probably are some LGD who just got tossed in the pen and did fine...But I'm not trusting my animals to that.


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## dianneS

I guess the breeder did tell me that I need to correct the pup if it does chase after something I don't want it to chase.  She's said they get the hint very quickly.  She just said that they don't need any "formal" training.

She also told me no obedience training at all and don't teach them to walk on a leash.  Have the farm vet take care of them, don't take them to the vets office.

That is also a concern for me.

I'm getting the impression that LGD are to stay with the herd, protect the herd and have little to no interaction with humans.  I've also read that this can make them a potential danger to strange humans, animals, pets etc.

If you do socialize a LGD then it is worthless as a guardian because it won't stay with the herd.  But wouldn't it still identify fox, raccoons, skunks, etc as predators and chase them away?  Don't all dogs do that?  My small dogs do, I'm just concerned that my small dogs will get hurt.

I'm just not sure if my goats are really in that much jeopardy of being harmed by preditors (my chickens are though!) that they would need a full time guardian with them.  I think a pet dog to patrol the property that could chase away the occasional fox, but know enough not to go after the goats or chickens would be fine.  I would like to have a dog to protect the house from human intruders too and a LGD out in the fields would not be much good in that department.


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## Roll farms

I'm not trying to influence your decision, just offering info on how we've dealt w/ things as they've come up...I knew we needed one (or three...or 16 once the pups arrived, lol)

We lead trained our first one, then didn't bother w/ the other 2.  
Ours have to be knocked out (happy pills) to go to the vet.  They just WON'T willingly leave the herd, and I don't like to stress them by forcing the issue...I usually just have the vet give them shots here.  On the rare occasion we have to take them to town, it's a PIA.

I want mine to chase off strange humans...they don't need to be near my barn.  I guarantee you if someone is trying to break into my house, if they hear them...they will probably go.....they're not going to KNOW the dogs can't get to them.

Our worst threat here (to the goats) is other people's dogs.  Idiot neighbors who let theirs roam, etc.  We've lost house pets to them and a pregnant doe lost her kids to one.  We are in coyote country but haven't seen ANY since Razor got here.  
Occasionally we find a dead possum or (yay) skunk waiting for us in the morning, even one fool musk rat.  
Razor stands by them until we see he 'did his job' and reward him w/ a pat and a 'good boy', toss the varmint, and then he comes in for breakfast.

I wouldn't formally obedience train them but mine know sit, stay, come, NO, and most importantly, DOWN.

Our older male comes into the barn to eat, when he's finished he sits his head in my lap as I milk and pays me w/ a big wet dog belch.  I KNOW that boy loves me, we just don't have to get all sloppy and mushy about it.  A pat on the head or a belly rub now and then is all he needs.

The female will let me do anything I need to to her.
She growls at strangers who came to see pups, but lets me tote them around.

We didn't spend hours a day w/ ours, but they're social w/ us, tolerant of visitors who go to the barn w/ us, and know we are "the boss(es)".

Don't contemplate getting one as a 'yard dog' b/c LGD by nature patrol territories.  With no fence for a boundary, they will keep widening the territory to include your neighbors', etc.


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## lupinfarm

dianneS said:
			
		

> I guess the breeder did tell me that I need to correct the pup if it does chase after something I don't want it to chase.  She's said they get the hint very quickly.  She just said that they don't need any "formal" training.
> 
> She also told me no obedience training at all and don't teach them to walk on a leash.  Have the farm vet take care of them, don't take them to the vets office.
> 
> That is also a concern for me.
> 
> I'm getting the impression that LGD are to stay with the herd, protect the herd and have little to no interaction with humans.  I've also read that this can make them a potential danger to strange humans, animals, pets etc.
> 
> If you do socialize a LGD then it is worthless as a guardian because it won't stay with the herd.  But wouldn't it still identify fox, raccoons, skunks, etc as predators and chase them away?  Don't all dogs do that?  My small dogs do, I'm just concerned that my small dogs will get hurt.
> 
> I'm just not sure if my goats are really in that much jeopardy of being harmed by preditors (my chickens are though!) that they would need a full time guardian with them.  I think a pet dog to patrol the property that could chase away the occasional fox, but know enough not to go after the goats or chickens would be fine.  I would like to have a dog to protect the house from human intruders too and a LGD out in the fields would not be much good in that department.


Just wanted to say.. The Akbash that "visits" us, while I don't appreciate him bothering my animals, I have been able to catch him, pet him, and he is not agressive. He has had no formal training, they just throw theirs out with their herd to begin with (with supervision) during the day, and eventually they are out all the time.


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## dianneS

Well, that's good to know lupinfarm.  

I just took my Cavalier King Charles Spaniel out to the goat pasture today to see how the goats react to him.  They weren't thrilled by his presence, but not really frightened of him at all.

He doesn't have a clue what to do out there!  Its really funny!  He's afraid of the goats actually, but loves to chase squirrels and anything else.  He's certainly not "patrolling" the pasture.  He's really just sitting out there waiting for me to come get him.  He's no LGD that's for sure!

He's enjoying the sun and chasing bugs, barking at the chickens.  I'm enjoying not having to wonder where he's wandered off to now!  I'm waiting to see if he gets head butted and then runs off to hid under a bush!  He's a real sissy!

Watching him makes me want a LGD!


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## dianneS

Rollfarms,  that's all very informative.

I would like to have a dog that is leash trained, can sit, stay and lie down as well as know not to jump up.

I imagine that if we got a LGD, it would be somewhat social, because our goats are social.  When anyone goes to the fence the goats come running for attention and most of all animal crackers!  If the dog were with them I guess he would learn to tolerate people on the other side of the fence.

I guess my biggest concern at this point is that I don't want a potential liability on my property.  It sounds like they are just not that aggressive that they go looking for trouble.

I was thinking that even if the dog were out at the barn, that he would still be a deterent to strangers lurking around the house.  Our barn isn't all that far from the house anyway.  The worst threat to our goats would be other people's dogs too.  We don't have any issues at this time, but I hear quite a few on the other side of the creek that sound big enough to take down a goat.  The coyotes are getting worse and worse in surrounding areas as well, so I only imagine that its just a matter of time til we see them here.

If I were to get this puppy neutered, could I take him to the vet right away before he gets too attached to his new herd?

BTW I had to bring my Cavalier in from the goat pasture!  The goats got used to him and started pushing him around!  I heard a yelp and went to rescue him!


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## ksalvagno

I don't have an LGD but it is my understanding that strangers wouldn't be able to just go up to your fence and see the goats without you present. Any farm that I have been on with an LGD, if I'm not with the owner, the dog makes it clear to stay away. I don't even go near a fence. So if you have people just going up to your goat fence without you there, that could be a problem. Especially once the LGD really integrates with herd and considers it his own.

I don't have an LGD because I admit I don't want to take the time to train the dog. I have guard llamas instead. With the guard llamas, they either have the instinct or they don't. No training involved. But if a pack of dogs or at least more than one dog was involved, the llamas probably wouldn't be able to take care of that.


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## Roll farms

We had some great guardian llamas....but they didn't see raccoons and weasels as threats and let them kill the chickens.
That's why we got rid of the llamas and got dogs.  
(I tried to have both, the llamas tried to kill Razor as a pup....since he would guard the birds eventually, he won the 'who stays?' contest.)

Mine don't go looking for trouble, for sure...but you'll get it if you mess w/ my critters. 

You can't fix a dog until they're 6 mos or so old, at least that's always been my understanding.  I would think a 6 mo. old should still be submissive enough to let you take him in.   
I would DEFINITELY get one fixed, as a dog looking for love doesn't have his mind on the job...and Razor used to hump the does....it wasn't pretty.
We got him neutered at 1 yr old.  He didn't lose his 'edge' one bit!


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## dianneS

Wow, I need a guardian dog right now!  There is some guy on big loud motorcycle in my driveway and my spaniel is just looking at him!  I think he's looking for the previous owners of the property.  He's gone, not a peep out of my dog though!

I would get my puppy neutered.  They are five months right now.  My vet wanted me to neuter my cavalier at 8 weeks!  I said no way that was too young, so I don't know the age limit?

I guess the guardian dog in the fence with the goats would be enough to keep a predator away from the chickens?  The lady that has these pups has each dog in a pasture with goats and her chickens are free-range and run all over the place, mostly outside of the goat fences (just like mine) and she hasn't lost one bird since she got the dogs.


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## Roll farms

We raised ours with baby chicks and let them know chasing or hurting them was BAD.  I dunno how one will do that wasn't raised (at your place) w/ them.
I'd definitely watch the situation until you're sure he understands they're off limits to him.
Our birds are all penned but when they do get out for a walk, they're not bothered by the dogs.  
The Anatolian did chase a guinea or two as a pup but again...you expect pups to be pups....you just have to let them know it's not Ok.


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## dianneS

These pups have chickens, chicks and guineas roaming across the goat pen now and then,  they were completely unphased by the birds.  My chicken house is about ten feet from the goat pen where the dog would be able to see the chickens most of the time.  The chickens rarely go into the goat pasture because they prefer the horse poop to scratch in!


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## dianneS

Just wondering what you do with the dog when you are not able to supervise??

I guess that is my biggest concern.  The breeder wants me to just turn him loose in the goat pasture and let him do his job.  I don't think that this is wise.  If I knew what to do with him when I can't watch him, I'd feel a lot better about the situation and might give it a try.


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## Roll farms

We left them shut up in barn (in a big box stall w/ toys, toys, and more toys) or in a pen with ONLY adult does.   Our main pen has only our adults in it, so that's always a safe bet.  They beat up on the pups quite a bit when they get too frisky and do a great job of showing them what they won't put up with.


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## dianneS

Well, I talked to a member of the Karakachan dog association today, she is also the breeder of the Daddy dog of these pups I'm looking at.

She answered a lot of my questions and it seems like not all rules that apply to LGD in general, apply to Karakachan's, some rules but not all.  

I can confine the dog near the goats when I cannot supervise him, so that is a relief.

The main thing is that these pups are already on the job, have been raised with the same livestock and are in a similar setup to ours.  They are also working well and doing their jobs already.

I think I'll give it a shot!  I'll post pics of the new pup when he arrives!


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## big brown horse

dianneS said:
			
		

> Well, I talked to a member of the Karakachan dog association today, she is also the breeder of the Daddy dog of these pups I'm looking at.
> 
> She answered a lot of my questions and it seems like not all rules that apply to LGD in general, apply to Karakachan's, some rules but not all.
> 
> I can confine the dog near the goats when I cannot supervise him, so that is a relief.
> 
> The main thing is that these pups are already on the job, have been raised with the same livestock and are in a similar setup to ours.  They are also working well and doing their jobs already.
> 
> I think I'll give it a shot!  I'll post pics of the new pup when he arrives!


I am soo excited for you!!  I can't wait to hear all about your little guy's/gal's progress! 

And photos, photos!!!


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## dianneS

I'm so excited too!  The breeder is saving a puppy for me and I'm picking him up Wednesday night!  I'll have lots of pics to post!


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## Roll farms

Congrats!
Yes, pics please!


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## big brown horse




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## dianneS

Okay, no pics just yet.  My camera battery went dead and I asked my husband to pick up a new one for me, and he forgot!! 

We got the pup home last night and it had been raining.  Really dark sky and its getting darker earlier now anyway.  I let the pup in the goat pen and the goats weren't as frightened of him as I thought they would be.  Puppy was just confused and scared, so we just put him in his own pen inside the goat pen and locked everyone in together for the night.  He barked for a little while, which I tried to discourage (nonsense barking is a no-no!) but he doesn't know the meaning of the word "NO!" just yet.

Unfortunatly while we were away, picking up the puppy, the wind had blown the chicken house door shut.  When we got home it was dark enough for the chickens to have put themselves to bed.  Well only about half of them made it inside the hen house!  The other half were outside roosting in trees or something, because I could not find them!  Amongst the chickens remaining outdoors, was a hen and two new chicks.  I knew they had to be on the ground somewhere and just hoped and prayed that they were well hidden from predators.  Well this morning, everyone was accounted for, except the two chicks.  Momma hen is limping a bit so she must have tried her best to defend them.  (She killed a baby skunk that got after her chicks once before.  He got four chicks, but she saved the remaining seven!)  Momma hen is limping around calling for her babies today.  Its sad, but at least it was just two and not more.

I'm more anxious than ever to get this puppy to work!  He's out with the goats right now.  I'm watching out the window.  He has no interest in chasing them at all and the goats are not as frightened of him as I thought they would be.  So far so good.  He's sitting on the bank next to them, just hanging out with the goats.  He had a big breakfast and I kept the goats away from him so they wouldn't try to steal his food (I don't want him to get food aggressive).  I feel much more confident already than I thought I would at this point.  I think this is going to work out well.  But I will proceed with caution of course.

I'll try to squeeze one more photo out of this camera battery   and will be getting a fresh battery ASAP!  I'll be back with pics soon!


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## dianneS

Okay here is one pic that I managed to get before the camera totally quit on me!

Its not a "good" one.  I want to get a pic of him laying with his goats, which is what he is doing right now!  I'm watching out the window.  The goats lay next to the barn every morning until the grass dries off and the sun comes out, before heading to the pasture to graze.  He's out there next to the barn just laying with them!

My little house dog followed me to the fence and the pup saw her.  Wasn't aggressive toward her, but backed up next to his goats and barked and howled until the little dog went away!

Sorry I can't post to this site, but here's link to the pic.  He's a rare red Karakachan!

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats078.jpg


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## ksalvagno

What a cute little guy!


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## oldbarncat

I have been raising Maremma LGD's for over 10 years now. We own a 125 head sheep, dairy cattle , alpacas and exotic birds and chickens. Now we have NOT had any predators what so ever attack any animal, person or bird on the property since we got the dogs.The Maremmas here do not kill any of our cats,birds and what nots. They are one of the best dogs we have ever owned.  Would I recommend a LGD? You are darn tootin' I would.


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## big brown horse

Hi oldbarncat!!  Welcome to the herd.



That is the cutest durn pup I ever did see!  He looks like a giant Benji dog!

I'm so glad you got him, be prepared to relax a little with him around.  (Not saying you don't have to do a little work with him, just saying that having one around makes life so much easier!)


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## dianneS

Here's a few more pics of the puppy and his goats.

I'm so thrilled with him already.  I'm so glad I got him.  He is really settling in well.  He is no longer barking at everything, and only barking at what he should bark at.

He informed me of an escaped goat already.  He's suspicious of anyone that approaches the fence, but not aggressive.  He allows me to handle the goats, but you can tell it makes him anxious.  Its so cute.  I'm able to stand at the fence and he stays out with his goats and just does his job, he doesn't come to the fence or try to get out, follow me or get my attention.  He keeps good watch of the chickens too.

He's an awesome dog already at only 5 months!  

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats087.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats094.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats090.jpg

Welcome oldbarncat!  I do feel more secure with him around already.  I new that the silence last night (no barking) meant that all is well!


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## big brown horse

OH, how cute is he?

Your place looks awesome by the way!!


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## Roll farms

Congrats, he is GORGEOUS!


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## dianneS

Well, I forgot to close the chicken house door last night.  I totally freaked when I saw loose chickens first thing this morning.  This hen house has been broken into more than once by very determined predators with the door CLOSED!

I went out for a head count, called everyone to me with some scratch, all accounted for!   Not one missing.  Not my chicks or my broody on the nest.  Everyone is alive and well.  I have to give credit to the dog!    I'm sure without him, we'd have had a massacre last night.

What a good pup!


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## breezyfarm

Hi I am new here and I love this site.  I have been wanting to get a LGD for some time and have learned alot from this topic.  I live in NC and it is difficult to find a LGD  here.  I have going back and forth about getting a Llama or LGD because I have a neighbor who hates dogs.  I had a cattle dog and he barked alot and we went to court and had to get rid of him.  We have 10 acres but our neighbor still complained.  He even complained about our Guineas and we had to get rid of them too.(went to court 3 times)  So I am hesitant to get a dog but we need something, we have a herd of Myotonic goats and miniature horses.  I have heard that the Great Pyrenese bark alot. So any suggestions would be welcome.  Thanks,


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## dianneS

Well my Karakachan pup did bark a lot the first night on the property and the next day, until he got used to things.  LGD should never "nonsense" bark, they should really only bark when there is trouble.  I brought two new little goats home last night and actually put them in the dogs pen (not with the dog of course) for everyone to get used to each other.  The dog did bark last night, I don't think he liked those kids in his bed!  

For the most part, the Karakachans don't bark much at all, they are very laid back, they hang back with the herd, they don't patrol the perimeter.  They just lay and watch their goats and blend in with the herd waiting for any "ambush".  They will run after something if they spot it in the distance, even run after hawks and leap in the air after them.  They do bark when there is trouble though.

I suppose it all depends on what types of predators you're dealing with.  If you don't have chickens to worry about, goats and mini horses are only susceptible to larger predators like coyotes and large dogs, maybe a baby goat could be prey to a very hungry fox.  A Llama might work for you and not get you in trouble with the neighbors.  A donkey would be noisy too and you could get complaints. A Llama would be helpful with your goats and horses, but it won't protect birds at all.

If you have neighbors that are that fussy,  I would avoid the dogs.  Go with the Llama.  But I do love my LGD!  He is great, but all dogs do bark (except for Basenji's and they are no guardians!  )  Its a shame that you have ten acres and still have problems with neighbors.   Some people just have too much time on their hands!


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## ksalvagno

Guard llamas should work for you. They will be quiet. But make sure you are actually getting a guard llama. Not all llamas are guards. They either have the instinct or they don't. They should be over 3 years old and have been guarding the same animal as you want them to guard.


----------



## dianneS

I've been keeping an eye on my guardian pup and the new goats to make sure everything is going okay.  I had to go play shepherd for a while and make sure that my dog understands that the new boys are mine and his to protect.  It seemed like he was trying to keep them separated from the girls, or perhaps the boys were just too timid to head out to the open pasture.  Maybe a little of both.

But all is well now!  They are all grazing together with their gaurdian dog keeping watch over them all!  

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats102.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats115.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats112.jpg

No more barking out of the dog and no more bawling out of the kids!!


----------



## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> Oh, there is one concern though.  The owner/breeder of these dogs told me that they need no training????
> 
> Apparently Karakachens are just bred to do their jobs and its instinctive.  If they are kept with goats/sheep etc from birth, they need no training at all.  She said that with her first Karakachen, she was told by the breeder to take him home and throw him in the pasture.  She did, and he did great!  He just got a little beat up by the goats is all.


Depends on what makes the dog tick..  We have a Sarplaninac who, unlike Pyrs and some other LGDs, needed no training nor "bonding" to do his job.  He runs on "fear aggression," so anything threatening and/or out of the ordinary gets his hackles up.  Anything that worries him, basically...instead of running from it like a lot of dogs would, he runs _toward_ it and tries to make it go away.  If the threat doesn't leave right away, he'll escalate his intimidation until it either decides to leave or it ends up in a fight...which he'll win, short of the threat being a bear or someone with a firearm.  But if it makes the wise decision to leave, he's _totally_ cool with that...would prefer it, I think.  He's not classically "vicious," nor is he really out looking for a knock down, drag out fight is what I'm getting at.

Also unlike most of the Pyrs I've seen that are truly bonded to their charges and _act_ like livestock, our LGD also comes a'runnin whenever he sees us enter the barnyard.  If you squat down or sit out there with him, he just can't get enough of being petted and loved on.  He's a dog, through and through..  Not at all shy about letting you know that his rightful place is to be the absolute center of attention..  Funny to watch a 150+lb dog wag his whole body..  He's truly a sweetheart of a dog.  

..unless, of course, you're a stranger, to which he'd probably seem like the meanest and most menacing damn dog you've ever run across in your entire life.

I asked my dad once -- my dad being a "stranger" to Ivan -- what he'd take to go in there with him..  

My dad snickered and said "Yeah right..  Not without a porkchop or a pistol!"

Thing is...I know a porkchop would be futile.  That dog can barely eat after dark for stopping to look around and check things out, oftentimes leaving his foodbowl to go bark at something.  If something _really_ riles him up during his dinner, it's not uncommon for him to get entirely too unsettled to finish eating.  Most times I have to stand with him while he finishes...I think it makes him feel better to know that someone's watching out while he's got his head down in a bowl.

Thing is, I know that's not because he knows his purpose...he's just naturally nervous.  In a nutshell, he's a big gigantic fraidy cat that's bred to fight instead of run.  That's all.

ZERO prey drive, too.  There's not a doubt in my mind that he'd starve to death if we didn't feed him, even though he's overrun with goats and chickens.  They're not food to him..  Food is that stuff in the bowl that we bring, or possibly a stray chicken egg or some spilled goat grain ( :/ ).  In his eyes, though, food simply doesn't live and breathe and move around.

Personally, after having had Ivan, I wouldn't have livestock without a good LGD..  He's absolutely phenominal and I love him dearly.

All that said, I know a guy who has to keep a Pyr tied because it keeps trying to kill ONE of his goats..  Just the one.  All the others are fine, but she's got a vendetta against this one particular goat.

Personally...and this is just me, but...personally, I think that's got A LOT to do with how cheap and indescriminantly bred Pyrs in this area are these days.  I wouldn't own a Pyr, frankly..  But, again, just personal opinion..


----------



## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> He barked for a little while, which I tried to discourage (nonsense barking is a no-no!) but he doesn't know the meaning of the word "NO!" just yet.





			
				dianneS said:
			
		

> LGD should never "nonsense" bark, they should really only bark when there is trouble.


If a dog's worth a rat's patoot as a LGD, he'll never really know the meaning of much of anything master says...

That's my opinion, of course, but do keep in mind that these dogs are bred to think and act independently.  If the owner breaks the dog of independent thinking and action early on and causes him to look to his owner for guidance, he'll be worthless as a LGD.  Afterall, his job is to protect the goats when the owner is NOT around, so if he doesn't feel right acting in master's absence.....well, that's definitely not a good situation.

Also, a bit of "nonsense" barking is par for the course with LGDs..  Most -- as yours seems to have done -- will get themselves acclimated to what sounds are normal and what sounds aren't..  Coyotes yipping and howling, for instance, drove our dog NUTS for a while, but just the other night a coyote howled so close that it made the hair on MY arms stand up....Ivan just looked up, scanned around a bit, then flopped back over.  Not a peep, as coyotes yipping are a fairly normal sound to him at this point, and haven't thus far been accompanied by anything harrowing.  So, to him, no biggie.  

Remember, too, that they can hear things you can't hear..  If he's barking at what seems to you to be "nothing," be careful about chastising him right off the bat..  You just never know what he's aware of that you're not!

There are times, even now, when he'll go on barking sprees and bark all..fricken..night..long at who knows what.  I wouldn't dare step outside and tell him to hush, though, as I know I'm a rank amateur compared to him when it comes to being aware of what's going on..

Plus...he wouldn't listen to me anyway.   

Your dog is super cute, btw..  

Here's my favorite pic of our Ivan, aka "Big Eye."


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## dianneS

cmjust0, I have found pretty much the same to be true with my new Karakachan pup.  He's doing a great job without any training, and I never in a million years thought I would trust him or be so impressed with his "work" quite so soon!  It is still early though and I've only had him a few weeks, but I can already sleep better at night just knowing he is out there.

I've been told too that Pyrs are being overbred as well, that's why I went with the Karakachan.  But I'm sure that many, many Pyrs are wonderful guardians.  I've never heard of the Sarplaninac?  I'll have to look that one up.

I got some great photos of my guardian with our brand new wethers who just got here last night and have never been around a dog before.  I can't believe how easily everyone is making the transition and how relaxed they all are!  

These are some of the cutest pictures I've ever seen!  

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats128.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats125.jpg
http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/dshoenfelt/goats129.jpg


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## cmjust0

If yours is like mine, you'll see a lot of his side like that.    Ivan lays around until something causes him to get up, and when it's over...he lays back down.  

Until it gets cold..  

Wait till it gets nice and cold out..  Hehehehe..  Your guy looks to have a nice winter coat coming on already, so when it's fricken just FREEZING COLD outside, he's liable to just _come alive_ and go berzerk on you.

Not berzerk as in killing things, mind you...just wanting to play and run and romp and have himself a big ol' time.  Ivan never wants me to play with him more than when my fingers are about to break off from the cold..  I've seen that dog sleep in the field during a freezing drizzle more times than I can count...you go in the barnyard and he jumps up and comes running at you to play with little ice pellets hanging off his coat like LET'S DO THIS!


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## dianneS

Oh boy, I'll be looking forward to that.  

I have noticed that, like you said before, he doesn't seem to know the meaning of anything that I say.  I don't think he really cares what I have to say either!

He does know to wait nicely for his food, but that's about all we've mastered!  He doesn't jump up on me as much, I was told he'd just outgrow that behavior.  Over all, he's just a really good boy and does like attention, but gets right back to business when its all over.


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## cmjust0

dianneS said:
			
		

> Oh boy, I'll be looking forward to that.


  hehehee..



			
				dS said:
			
		

> I have noticed that, like you said before, he doesn't seem to know the meaning of anything that I say.  I don't think he really cares what I have to say either!


Good!  That means he's confident and is inclined to think for himself.  Excellent qualities to have in a LGD.

I think what you'll find is that even though they may not _listen_ per se, they're extremely sensitive animals who can instinctively approximate how you're feeling at any given moment.  As he progresses, you may find that you only have to look at him funny to prompt a response..  

For instance, when we express aggravation with Ivan, he goes into this weird super-slow-mo and almost freezes...you can see in his eyes that he's thinking ohcrapohcrapohcrapohcrap...until the awkwardness passes, at which point he tries _so hard_ to get back in your good graces.  He does that because he literally does not know to run away when he gets scared -- it's not a part of his DNA -- yet he wouldn't dream of getting aggressive with us...so he just locks up.  It's bizarre when you first see it, but once you come to understand it, it makes absolute perfect sense.

It's also especially NOT handy when you get aggravated at him because he's standing in your way when you're carrying something heavy..  You'll be like "Move!" and he...just.....freezes........solid.



Also..  :/  ..be prepared for people poking fun at you for your dog not listening to a word you say...they'll think he's dumb because most people equate obedience with intelligence and disobedience with stupidity.

Which sucks.  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> He does know to wait nicely for his food, but that's about all we've mastered!


That's a biggie, though.  The pack leader tells the other dogs when and what they may and may not eat.  If he's sitting and waiting nicely for food, he's accepted you as the alpha.

Me and mine had to work on that a bit since he was already in the 80-100lb range at about 7mo when we got him...and I was a stranger.  He didn't like me AT ALL, so I had to teach him that he couldn't run me off..  Though he could easily have injured me pretty badly, he wasn't yet confident enough to actually launch an attack...so he eventually submitted.  Thankfully.  It took a while, but today, I can pet him while he eats and he'll wag his tail as he crunches kibble..  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> He doesn't jump up on me as much, I was told he'd just outgrow that behavior.


Ivan's hilarious about that.  He's not once jumped up on either of us, but he still has the urge to sorta half-jump sometimes...which comes off as a bounce..   

For a dog that big to bounce like a puppy...cutest thing in.the.world.  



			
				dS said:
			
		

> Over all, he's just a really good boy and does like attention, but gets right back to business when its all over.


Based on how you've described him so far, I think your new LGD is going to be absolutely phenominal.  Sounds to me like he's got just what it takes.


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## dianneS

I do think he has what it takes to be a LGD.  I never dreamed I'd be so impressed.  I thought it would take years for me to trust him, or be impressed by his work ethic!  He had me convinced that I made the right decision within the first 12 hours he was on my property!  

Your Ivan is beautiful btw!   I did some reading on the Sarplaninac, they sound like awesome dogs!  They seem to be as rare as the Karakachan.  I feel so honored to own such a rare breed.

I emailed the breeder I got Alex from today and sent her pics to let her know how happy I am with him.  I was apprehensive at first and she knew that, but she assured me that I'd be pleased with him.

I wish I would have gotten a photo of my dog's Daddy!  He was huge, and just an awesome dog.  He was the same rare shade of red as my boy.  I hope my guy gets just a big some day!  Head as big as a bears!


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## Reality Check

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Personally...and this is just me, but...personally, I think that's got A LOT to do with how cheap and indescriminantly bred Pyrs in this area are these days.  I wouldn't own a Pyr, frankly..  But, again, just personal opinion..


According to this USDA study, 50% of the repondents thought that your breed of dog was a liability, where as only 6% thought a Great Pyrenees was a liability.  Furthermore, 71% thought the Great Pyrenees was an effective LGD, where as only 40% thought a Sarplaninac (Shar) was an effective LGD.  

These statistics don't match your biased opinion.  Is this your first LGD?


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## ksalvagno

Obviously a good guardian dog depends on the instincts of the dog as well as the training. There may be some breeds that generally or statistically are better than others but obviously it comes down to personal choice and what works best for you personally.

I choose not to have a guardian dog because my alpaca herd is constantly changing and I feel that a dog wouldn't adjust to the changing herd so I choose to have guard llamas. Once again, personal choice for my particular situation.


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## dianneS

Exactly.  Some breeds may work for some people and some situations where other's may not, regardless of the statistics.  That's why I was so apprehensive about a dog at first.  No matter what the statistics are that a particular breed may or may not be a good guardian, there is still no 100% guarantee that it will work out.  You just never know. 

So far, and I mean so far, my dog is working out well.  But you never know what could happen some day in the future, but so far so good.   His previous guardian situation was very similar to our set up, and he seems like an appropriate personality for us too.  He's just a good fit all around.


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## Reality Check

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Obviously a good guardian dog depends on the instincts of the dog as well as the training. There may be some breeds that generally or statistically are better than others but obviously it comes down to personal choice and what works best for you personally.


The full report is here. 

I just had to do it.  This reminded me of a guy on BYC that was bashing Great Pyrenees dogs for not being pure white, and having badger markings instead.  To him, this indicated that the purity of the breed had been compromised.  

The report is good in that it clearly shows that there is no perfect dog.  However, what is truly funny is that the report shows that the Sarplaninac (Shar) is least likely to stay with the herd, and more likely to injure people.  Maybe that is why they are not too popular in the US, for good reason.


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## dianneS

Aww, I wish that report had Karakachans listed.  

I did read this about the Karakachan breed:   _Since 1998 there have been altogether three cases of successful predator attacks in the flocks provided with dogs for this project. In one big flock of 650 sheep, four had been killed, but this was due to the shepherds dividing the flock in half during grazing and one half had been left without dogs. The Karakachan Dog is strictly territorial. It accepts the flock as its territory_, 

If half the flock was left without dogs thanks to the shepherds, I would think that those attacks don't count!  

I'm so glad that the Karakachan dog association won't register dogs that are not WORKING livestock guardians and they don't allow breeding of dogs that are not currently working as guardians.  That is awesome!  No breeding specifically for pets and keeping them working helps with the passing on of guardian instincts.  Some people are breeding Karakachans with Great Pyrs and they seem to be working out well.  The Great Pyr half makes them more personable and friendly with people, I'm told.

A "dog show" person was recently trying to educate me on guardian dogs.  She was clueless  only knowing AKC rules and standards and such that certainly don't apply to a guardian dog, let alone a breed that isn't even recognized by the AKC.  She needs to keep her "show ring" business to herself   !


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## Reality Check

dianneS said:
			
		

> Aww, I wish that report had Karakachans listed.


I saw it briefly mentioned here:

http://www.canids.org/occasionalpapers/livestockguardingdog.pdf


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## Roll farms

The _only_ gripe I have w/ Pyrs is the coat.  
I haven't had any of the 'issues' listed here...ours are wonderful LGD's.
I didn't "train" them, just kept an eye on them and corrected any unwanted puppy behavior.
Razor and Edge are always with me in the pasture (unless they see a 'threat'....like a rogue squirrel or some such...), loving, and they are ALWAYS on the job.
What amazes me is one (usually Razor) runs AT the 'threat' while the other goes and stands in front of the herd.....how do they know to do that?  (I know it's instinct, but it's still an absolutely beautiful thing to watch....)
My point here, is...there are some goats I wouldn't own, either...doesn't make them "bad" goats, just not what I want.  Stereotyping animals is as risky as stereotyping people...there will always be some that don't fit the "mold" you try to put them in.


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## dianneS

That's so cool that one dog stays with the herd while the other goes after the threat!  Is it always the same dog who stays while the other goes, or do they switch roles?

I was told that Karakachans work best in pairs too, but I just don't have enough animals or enough space to warrant having two.

My guy typically stays with the herd when he's suspicious of something.  I haven't really seen him "go after" anything yet.

I am currently rotating pastures and I have the horses in with the goats for the first time ever.  I couldn't have my miniature horse with the goats prior to the dogs arrival, due to the fact that the mini horse would chase and torment the goats.  Now that the goats have the dog, the dog won't allow that bad little horse to chase his goats!  Every now and then Alex goes up to the little horse and just barks at him like he's telling him "I know what you're thinking and don't you get any ideas about chasing my goats!"  Its really funny, but everyone is grazing peacefully together now.


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## dianneS

OMG.  I regret to announce that my LGD that has been doing such an amazing job, just killed a chicken today.  

He is still a pup, but I don't think he played with this chicken to death (or maybe he did, I'm not sure).    He killed my only Polish Crested banty, and she can't see where she is going due to her bangs in her eyes all the time.  She walks into doors, she walks into me, she was really ditzy.   So he could have started playing with her and if she couldn't see where she was going, perhaps she couldn't get away when the play got to rough.

Or perhaps not... She wasn't just killed, he ate her.   He took her from the pasture (where I found the first batch of feathers) and carried her into his crate (where his food dish is) in the goat pen and ate every last bit of her.

I never intended for this dog to be a "chicken dog" I didn't expect him to bond with the chickens, he's more bonded with the goats.  I just wanted him to deter predators in general from coming on the property, and so far, he's doing that.

The chickens rarely go in the pen with the dog, but he can see them on the other side of the fence.  He rarely pays any attention to chickens at all and I've never even seen him chase one.  I'm not all that concerned that its going to happen frequently, that particular chicken was just and easy target I think.

I just don't understand why he ate her?  I don't want him to start thinking of other living things as food?  There was nothing left of the chicken, so I couldn't tie her to his collar for a week to teach him a lesson.  I'm not sure how to handle this, but I'm not terribly concerned, I guess I'll just have to keep a closer eye on him and maybe expose him to more chickens in a controlled situation.


----------



## big brown horse

I'm so sorry Diane.


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## ksalvagno

Sorry about your LGD. Hopefully someone can give you some tips on what to do.


----------



## dianneS

From what I've read, it's not uncommon for a LGD puppy to kill a chicken when they are still young.  I'm just disturbed that he ate her.  

I can tell by the location of the feathers that she most likely got lost and stuck inside the goat pen.  She was a really skittish bird and her crest had grown so big that she couldn't see where she was going at all anymore.  She probably started making quite a commotion and she was too tempting not to chase.

I've tried enticing him with other birds to see how he reacts, and possibly train him not to chase, but he shows no interest in them at all!  He is housed right next to the chickens and when the chickens are free range, they go in the pen with him and along the outside of his fence, and he never even looks twice at them!

I'm hopin this was a one time thing provoked by that flakey bird and it won't happen again.  

One thing is for sure, I won't be getting any more polish cresteds!  It almost seems cruel to breed a bird that can't even see where she is going most of the time!  I guess I should've trimmed her bangs.


----------



## dianneS

I fed the chickens right outside of his pen today.  He acted like they weren't even there!  He's never shown any interest in them before either??

I took one in the pen, he didn't even notice her.  I can't seem to set up a scenario where he gets provoked so that I can correct him.  

I hope it was a one time thing.


----------



## big brown horse

Are you 100% sure it was him?


----------



## dianneS

Oh, I'm pretty sure it was him.  He took her into his crate to eat her!  His crate was all full of feathers!


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## dianneS

Oh no, I think I may have a chicken killer on my hands.  

I didn't get this pup in the first place to live directly with the chickens and be a chicken guardian, I just wanted a dog that would deter predators and be of a temperment that would make it unlikely that the dog would be capable of killing anything.  

Well a goat got out a few days ago and the dog followed her.  He acted like a typical sheepish guardian dog while he was on the wrong side of the fence, scared to death and wanted himself and his goat back on the other side!

A day or two after that, my husband found the dog loose again.  This time my husband takes the dog on a little romp around the barn and gives him treats and hangs out with him.  Ever since then, the dog has been escaping over and over! Digging under the fence. I found a dead chicken next to the pen today, but it must have been killed yesterday when they were free ranging, because nothing broke into the coop.

Today, the dog breaks out again.  I find him ten feet from where I found the dead chicken, and all of my other chickens are on the opposite side of the road!  They never go over there, and never ever all of them all at once!!  

I put the dog on a leash.  I had to drag him outside of the fence, he acted like a typical sheepish LGD, didn't want to leave his goats.  I put him in the corner of the barnyard on leash and threw some scratch for the chickens.  Only a few would eat the scratch and once they spotted that dog,  they high-tailed it out of there!  I didn't even need a reaction from the dog, I could read the reaction from the chickens that they have had more than one bad experience with this guy!

I don't know what to do?  Should I give him another chance?  Stop free ranging my chickens?  Put up electric fence to keep the dog in?  I actually am at my wits end with containing him.  This dog is about 85 pounds now, with a huge head.  He managed to get out of a big heavy duty wire dog crate by bending the wire at the bottom to make a slot about four inches wide, and he sqeezed through that!  He just digs a small bit of dirt under the fence and squeezes through a four inch gap there too!

What do I do??  My husband is sure that the dog is a chicken killer and wants to find him a home on a sheep or goat farm, with no chickens.  I think he's still young and we could work on it.  Maybe neutering him would help?  I don't know, I'm so disappointed, he was doing so well.


----------



## ksalvagno

Is there someone in your area that could help you with training? Maybe a professional trainer that trains LGD's would be helpful.


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## kimmyh

I would run a hot wire to keep the dog in, and accept that chickens in the goat pen are probably fair game. Some people use a shock collar and set thing up to catch the dog in the act, but who has time to sit out there all day and night? Chasing chickens is an instinct it is part of the dogs genetic makeup to attack the panicked bird/prey, and I have never had any success in training one out of it.


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## dianneS

I could look around, but this woman who sold him to me and the lady with the Karakachan dog association told me that these dogs shouldn't require any training at all, they should instinctively know their job.

Right now, my main concern is just keeping him contained.  He digs out under the fence, he has destroyed a huge heavy duty wire dog crate.  I currently have him tied to a drag.  A car tire that he can drag, but he's freaking out because he has never been tied before.  He's muddy from digging and slobbery from panting, but I can't turn him loose or he'll just get out and get after my chickens!  I can't get the chickens back inside until it gets dark either.

He's just becoming a destructive, nightmare of a dog all of a sudden!


----------



## dianneS

I thought about hot wire, it would help keep tiny goats in.  I do have an invisible fence system that I used at my other house for my small dogs, he wouldn't even be able to get close enough to the fence to dig under it!  He would get a beep before he gets a shock, I'm sure he'd learn fast.  We just have a big pasture and that would be a lot of wire to run either way!


----------



## dianneS

The lady who sold me the dog just contacted me about two other puppies that she had placed with someone else a few months ago.  It seems that these people are looking to get rid of their puppies too, but her suggestion was that I could trade my guy in on a different pup that is hopefully not a chicken killer!  She said the other two have been around chickens and have no problem with them.  But I wonder why they are being re-homed so soon??  That doesn't sound like a solution to me.


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## ksalvagno

I would find a professional trainer and speak to them. I would also see if there are farms in the area that have LGD's and get their opinions on how their dogs handle all the different livestock and how they keep them in their proper areas along with what  they did to train them. I don't have any experience with the dogs but I could tell you about llamas!


----------



## dianneS

I think we're going to try the electric fencing for now.  As long as I can keep him contained we should be fine.  If a chicken goes into his pen, oh well, she's fair game.  I cannot have a dog breaking out so that he can go on a chicken hunt!


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## kimmyh

Sometimes the chicken chasing/killing is tied to age. However, I have an Aussie who killed chickens when she was young, and has been fine for years on my farm UNTIL a couple of months ago when she started digging to get into the goat pen, where she attacked a buck. She is now penned with my horse, with an escape pen for her dog house and food, and it is a royal pain. She could dig out if she wanted to badly enough, and that is a constant worry. Anyone want a spayed Aussie?


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## dianneS

I've decided to install our underground fence system around the outside of the goat fence.  That way digging won't even be an option for him.  Neither will going over the fence.  I can adjust the stimulation and the field width.  If I want to keep him six feet back from the fence I can.  I figure it could help with chicken training too.  He won't be able to pin any against the fence if can't get near the fence!  My goats will still be able to trim the grass along the fence lines too, so I won't have to weed whack!

He's been out so many times recently and only killed one little chick.  He doesn't really show an interest in the chickens most of the time.  I think he attacks if the opportunity arises and he spots a chicken in a vulnerable position.  It doesn't seem like he's getting out just to go after chickens.... yet.

The woman I got him from said that her vet told her that once they get that taste for chicken, you can never break them of it.  She re-homed one dog because it became a chicken killer.  I do think that if we can keep him contained that should solve most of the problem.  I know that some try to re-train chicken killers, but I can't catch this guy reacting to the chickens!  When I'm observing him, he doesn't look twice at the chickens!!

I'm putting him to the test today.  I fixed the spots where he got under the fence yesterday.  The chickens are in the coop and I'm watching to see if he escapes again.  So far, he's just hanging with the goat the way he used to.  I'm still going to put in that fencing though.  I think he knows he's literally in the dog house with me.  For the first time ever, I can scold him and he seems to understand.  Prior to this he just acted like a big lunkhead an nothing seemed to phase him.  I guess maybe I just had to get mad enough to get my point across!


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## Roll farms

The hot wire sounds like the best course of action, better than the drag, at least...

Our Anatolian killed an escaped guinea once, but nothing after that.  
Our pyrs have never hurt a bird.
They've also never dug out or escaped.

That's my only experience w/ bird killers, and none w/ escape artists, so I can't really offer much useful advice except to say...every one of our  LGDs went through an obnoxious phase where I'm ready to give up on them, and so far ea of the 3 turned out to be wonderful adult guardians.

Hopefully with time and patience he'll 'grow up' and you'll be so glad you have him.

Good luck....


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## dianneS

Update on my boy.  We installed underground fencing for him.  I like the goats to be able to trim under the fence for us so I didn't want to install a hot wire just yet.  I also had an underground system lying around so I figured I'd use it!

I thought the big lug may not be phased by it, but he really yelped the first time he got too close to the fence!  The nice part about it, is that not only does it keep him in, but it works as a training tool too.  If he goes after a chicken and tries to corner it or pin it against the fence, he gets zapped when he's about three feet from the fence!  This allows the chicken time to escape too.

So far though, he doesn't show any signs of being a true chicken killer.  The hens walk on the fence and he doesn't look twice at them.  They are right outside his fence all the time and he shows no interest.

I think he is just going through an obnoxious teenage phase.  He's much better since the installation of the fence and he's back on duty and doing a great job once again.  I like him again, and I'm no longer mad at him!


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## texascowmama

YES, YES, YES!!  Go now, don't pass go, don't collect $100 bucks!!  We got our Great Pyrenees last year and he is a wonderful, beautiful animal!  His instincts amaze me everyday! 

A few pointers though.  Don't worry if it's AKC registered.  Do get one from a working farm.  For instance, Diesel came from a chicken farm where he was exposed to chickens from day 1.  His parents were working dogs.  Another thing, in the beginning, when they are all fuzzy and adorable.....RESIST!!  Don't bring them in the house to cuddle, don't let them on your lap.  They are working dogs and should not be spoiled.  Put them in their kennel at night in with the animals they are to protect.  We did this with Diesel from day 1 and he NEVER had an accident in his kennel at night and is now protective over HIS chickens!!  He even chases the guineas out of the coop!  

Good luck in finding one.  Remember, the first month is the most important.  Be consistent.  So many times I wanted to bring Diesel in and snuggle with him, but I knew I would ruin him and then I would be stuck feeding a dog the size of a horse for nothing.  

Go ahead, do it!  They are wonderful creatures!!


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## dianneS

texascowmama said:
			
		

> YES, YES, YES!!  Go now, don't pass go, don't collect $100 bucks!!  We got our Great Pyrenees last year and he is a wonderful, beautiful animal!  His instincts amaze me everyday!
> 
> Go ahead, do it!  They are wonderful creatures!!


Thanks, I'm so glad you approve of LGD's.  I posted this a few months ago and did get a Karakachan puppy of 5 months old from a working farm.  (check out the entire thread if you want more details, I think I posted pics too)  He was working when we got him and was doing an amazing job until recently he started digging out of the fence and killed two chickens.  We've since remedied the situation and he's back on duty and doing a great job again.

I don't expect my dog to bond with the chickens or anything like that.  The chickens should stay out of his area and if they don't, oh well, too bad.  I just need him here to bark and keep that nasty fox, racoons and skunks away!

So far, I'm impressed and I love the bond he has with the goats.  I love the way he monitors the humans who are "messing with" his goats too!  He just pushes his way in and sniffs and licks at our hands the whole time.  I'm sure that if he sensed or smelled any intent to do the goats any harm and he would take action!  He's just a big goof ball most of the time, but that just disguises the fact that he is "all business"!


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## ksalvagno

I'm glad things are working out for you. congratulations!


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## big brown horse

I'm glad too.


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## russellmary

My husband and I were driving past our sheep fence last night and witnessed a dog - looked like a yellow lab mix - getting into the sheep fence. It's an electric fence too. Our three huge livestock guardians just let it in and started playing with it!!!!!!! We were shocked. 

A ram lamb came up missing the other day, and I wonder if this dog chased it off. My husband chased the dog off in the truck while I checked to make sure all our sheep were accounted for. My husband said he would have run it over but thought I wouldn't want him to. I said I wouldn't have minded and that I was just wishing I had a gun - not to be spiteful or anything, but another dog is a serious threat to our sheep. Dogs should not be free to harass other people's livestock. The dog had a collar on. He was shocked by the fence on his way out.

Anybody heard of this happening before? What should we do about it? I'm very concerned about this. I can't believe our dogs let him in!!!! Our dogs are males. Maybe we should get a female too? Maybe this other dog was a female?


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## meme

You will probably be able to trust it. I dont know a lot about great pyrenese dogs, but lady down the street has a great pyrenese dog,but I don`think she  pets it that much. It will walk up to the fence and bark every time I walk by, but if you walk up to it it runs away. She has another dog named, "Mattey". She is a lot nicer to that one though, she takes it everywhere with her, and never pets the other dog. I am not saying not to get one, or not pet it, or love it, I am just saying that I don`t know if it will really protect them if you pet it to much. But I told you I don`t know that much about great pyrenese  dogs.  Anyway, I am pretty sure it will protect them even if you are very sweet to it, like I am with mine. Just wondering what kind of dog food do you feed it, Taste of the wild? Because that is one of the best dog foods, It has no corn, no bie products, no corn, and lots of other stuff.



                       GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR PUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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