# getting goats soon, lot of questions =)



## CoffeeCow (Jan 3, 2011)

Hey, 

  I am planning on getting a few goats this year. I will be building them a house and fence really soon, I'm in the "planning" phase now. We have narrowed our choices down to Dwarf Nigerians, and Mini Nubians. I guess the first question would be, what are the Pro's and con's of these 2 breeds?

We are getting 2 females and a weathers (for company) We plan on milking for personal use and possibly for soap making.
I will be building them a nice size pen that I can close up at night. and fencing in a good size area for them to play/graze

Roughly what square footage is needed per goat inside, and outside?

I also have chickens. I was thinking of adding another coop in with the goats, do chickens and goats get along well? are there any concerns with then sharing the same living space?

I was thinking of combining a coop and goat house in one, similar to this (sorry for the bad art here )


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|...........................................|.broody..|.....chicken.....|
|...........................................|....pen....|........coop......|
|...........................................|..............|......................|
|...........goats.......................|..............|......................|
|................go.......................|..............|......................|
|..............here......................|..............|......................|
|...........................................|_______|......................|
|..........................................................|......................|
|..........................................................|......................|
|..........................................................|......................|
|..........................................................|......................|
|..........................................................|......................|
|..........................................................|......................|
__________________________________________


Would a setup like that be okay? or should I build a separate coop? or not at all?

(told you I had a lot of questions)
I will post more questions as I think of them, 
thanks for the help


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## CoffeeCow (Jan 3, 2011)

wow... its weird seeing only 1 post next to my name ... I have a ton on BYC


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## ksalvagno (Jan 3, 2011)

It is so hard to say how much space per goat. It depends on grazing ability and everything. I wouldn't house chickens and goats together. You don't want the chickens pooping on the goat's hay and feed. Plus you don't want the goats eating the chicken feed.

I have Nigerian Dwarfs and love them. I like their small size and they give me enough milk for my needs. You can also have more of them if you have a small area. They are also year round breeders so you can stagger the breedings and have milk all year around.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jan 3, 2011)

I don't know a thing about mini nubians, but I know why I chose ND's.... 

1. I do 98% of the care of our goats, and as a petite, weak, woman I need to be able to take care of the animals on my own. If eve one of my bucks didn't want to go where I wanted him to, tough. I'm bigger and stronger and he goes where I want him to.  Of course this probably doesn't apply to mini nubians, but I'm just listing all the reasons why I chose ND's. 

2. High butterfat content, a ND will give an average (depending on animal and feed) of 6-10% butterfat. Which means more cheese, butter and cream which I highly value.

3. More efficient feed to milk ratio. When all 4 of my ND girls are in milk I should be receiving 2 gallons or more a day, judging from previous' owners records, and they eat much less then a larger goat. I think I feed all 5 of my goats on how much it takes to feed one larger goat. Of course this will depend on how well bred the ND's and goats you are comparing them too and what breed also. Some larger goats produce more milk, but less butterfat, some less milk but more butterfat.

4. Every ND I have ever met has been quiet and sweet. I have heard that nubians are the noisiest breed and that they are LOUD! Again, I don't know about mini nubians though. 

There was a good discussion on breeds here .


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## glenolam (Jan 3, 2011)

& to the "other side"!!

I agree you might not want to house the chickens and goats together.  There are good, valid arguments going both ways, but from my personal experience it turned into a disaster and I ended having to repair more than I had ever expected.  Goats will find a way onto the chicken side and climb all over everything, the chickens will make a mess of the goat bedding (which I didn't mind -- made for easier clean up in the spring/summer IMO), I had to repair the cheap chicken fencing where the goats had broken through and you can't let the goats have ANY chicken feed (including cracked/whole corn).

Some people that do house them together, or more or less let their chickens free range about the entire property, put the nesting boxes way up high so the goats can't get to it.  It all just depends on what you want...easy acess to everything or having to bullet proof the nesting boxes and feed bins.  Hopefully someone who houses them together and has it work out will chime in to give you more pros rather than just listening to our cons....


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## CoffeeCow (Jan 3, 2011)

Thanks for the replies everyone 

we had been talking about ND's for quite a while, then a few weeks ago, I saw some mini nubian pictures, they are just so darn cute, the long floppy ears, and roman nose... very good looking animals. When comparing them , the Nd produces a bit more milk and/or butterfat, and is smaller.

Still unsure what way we are going to go, the wife really loves the way the Mini Nigerians look, I agree, but I like the smaller size and milk ouptut of the ND's better.

form over function?  heh

Anyway, as for the chickens, I can leave them in the coop they have, I just saw a reason for a new project  I love building things, and figured I would make the most out of this project as I could 
I am sure that the chickens will roam in the goats area, I can't stop that... they are very busy chickens! they supervise all of my building and gardening projects  .  they will go to their (existing) coop to roost.


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## poorboys (Jan 3, 2011)

I only have a few chickens now, but they kinda share a pen with the bucks. their wings have been clipped, so they dont get into hay rack I don't think one of my bucks would put up with it, But they do have seperate  coops, that only the chickens can get into, it is fenced in with roof, they only go out with the goats to scratch, lay in the sun, but on the other side of it, our bucks have stepped, sat and squash a few chickens. Also the water has to be kept cleaned for the goats!!!!!


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jan 3, 2011)

I highly recommend you both read the link I posted. Deborah made some excellent points in her posts in the link.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 3, 2011)

I agree, I would not house chickens and goats together.  Not a great mix.  Mine do however wander into the barn..but dont stay to long and there is really no place for them to roost!!

As for size of building they need..what type are you looking into??  Size of animal, how many, pasture space or paddock and if you have winters  that will all come into play??

Good luck!!! I love my goaties!!!  Their great animals!!!!


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## CoffeeCow (Jan 3, 2011)

I am still thinking Dwarf Nigerian. 
Our winters are usually mild (in Eastern NC)

I was wanting to lock them in at night, 

I try to be generous on space, like for my chickens, they have a coop and run that they are in all the time, except for when I am in the garden. then while I am out and can watch them, they can come out and play. I want them to be comfortable, so I took the recommended area for a chicken and tripled it.. my coop and run has enough space for 30 birds, yet I only have 8 ( and 3 new chicks) I would like to contain 3 Dwarf Nigerians the same way.
we have a tad over 2 acres, but we use it as a back yard too.


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## chandasue (Jan 3, 2011)

There is a book available for download called "Personal Milkers: A Primer to Nigerian Dwarf Goats" by Patricia G. Stewart that is really covers ND's and I would guess a lot would apply to Mini Nubians as well. Be aware that not all ND's are great milkers. Whatever you buy ask the breeder a lot of questions on how well the milking genetics are for their goats. In that book it says 2 ND's need 18 sq ft inside. That really depends on your climate and amount of outdoor space they have. Mine hardly go outside in the winter so they need adequate indoor space, and they're spoiled. I currently only have 2 does with about 150 sq ft in the shed! But I'm adding a lamancha soon, and when they have babies it gets crowded fast! You could build a shelter that houses both the chickens with separate access to each side, but separate them with wire fencing so the chickens can't get over to the goats and vice versa.


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## CoffeeCow (Jan 3, 2011)

only 18 sq ft for a pair! okay  I was worried, I was planning on building at least a 20'x40' building, and was worried it wouldn't be big enough. seems like it will be way more than enough for 3 Dwarf Nigerians.

their "pen" will be about 180'x 60' with their  building inside it. I was planning on having a covered area in front of their building for shade. they will have access to about 3/4 acre on the (warm) weekends. Will that be okay for them? or does the "pen" need to be bigger?


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 3, 2011)

> I was wanting to lock them in at night,


yep make sure you lock them up tight. are you considering electric fencing? remember that you want to keep the goaties IN but more than that you want to keep the predators out. dogs (and all their wild relatives) love goats b/c they smell like poop and run with chased. 

can you just build a new goat hut next to the existing chicken house so they share the outside wall? my goaties and clucks are next to each other and it works great. the ducks and clucks have access to the goat yard (but are housed and fed separately)... the goats dont have access to get into the hen side. (did someone already say that chicken feed can be toxic to goats? )

i'm the dissenting opinion here.. i do NOT like the ND's. i know i know...  but hear me out and to be fair you said you wanted "cons." 

i dont like them for the same reasons folks who love them..well.. love them. folks like them b/c they are bouncy and fun and have a lot of personality. 

and i like quiet, well behaved, QUIET goats. both ND and full sized Nubians tend to be loud - and its worse when they are in heat.

and 

every story i have that starts with "you can believe what that dang goat did today" was about our ND/mini mancha. she was just plain ridiculous.

and before someone blows a gasket.... of course there are some well behaved ND's out there. but i havent met one.
;-)

i like the la manchas - they are petite, full sized dairy goats that are nice and quiet and have a minimum amount of ridiculousness. and they milk like the dickens. but they dont have the long ears so they look funny.

another thing to consider is you're going to be milking that goat 2x (or once) a day for the whole summer. our mini is a pretty good milker but she has the smallest teats ever. milking our la mancha is like pulling a beer tap.... milking the mini can be difficult. and nearly impossible for my hubby who has huge ham-sized hands.  i only milked her once a day b/c i just couldnt do it. 

and while i'm giving free advice.... (ha!)  i'd sure pay extra for a proven milker than start with doelings. with a doe in milk you'll already know what you are getting instead of having to feed a doeling for a year, breed her, and hope for the best. also an experienced milker knows what to do even if you dont. my good ol' gal put up with all my bad milking technique by just standing there. if i had to learn 'how to' with a first time milker there would be a lot of crying. 

actually there is a great thread here called "kicky milker" which is a great resource for getting started.

when you start looking for your goats remember that its totally ok to milk the doe before you buy her. and to ask lots of questions. most folks are totally happy to help.

aside from all the foolishness you'll love having the free milk. we save a ton of money by not having to buy dairy for us... and we also use it for our barnyard. usually our feed budget is cut by 30% across the board b/c we supplement with the goats milk. the hens love the goat milks (so do ducks and turkeys) and its great for their eggs. 

good luck!


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## crazyland (Jan 3, 2011)

I have ND and crosses. They stay in a 10x10 welded pen at night during the day they wander around an acre with the chickens. 
The chickens are fed before the goats come out for the morning. I hand feed the goats some grain so the chickens don't get extra. 
This is working pretty well for me.  The goats get extra bonding time and both the chickens and goats don't get extra feed.


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## happyhensny (Jan 3, 2011)

CoffeeCow said:
			
		

> wow... its weird seeing only 1 post next to my name ... I have a ton on BYC


Yup, new here too!  Have about 1,000 on BYC.  Love my new goats though. FUNNY!


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jan 3, 2011)

ohiofarmgirl said:
			
		

> > I was wanting to lock them in at night,
> 
> 
> i dont like them for the same reasons folks who love them..well.. love them. folks like them b/c they are bouncy and fun and have a lot of personality.
> ...


That's funny that that is all you have seen of ND's, and all I have seen is the exact opposite, except for when my little buckling was missing something nutritionally, then he let me know! Now that I seem to have his  nutrition covered he is as content and happy and quiet as can be, as so are all my others except when in heat.


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## chandasue (Jan 3, 2011)

CoffeeCow said:
			
		

> only 18 sq ft for a pair! okay  I was worried, I was planning on building at least a 20'x40' building, and was worried it wouldn't be big enough. seems like it will be way more than enough for 3 Dwarf Nigerians.
> 
> their "pen" will be about 180'x 60' with their  building inside it. I was planning on having a covered area in front of their building for shade. they will have access to about 3/4 acre on the (warm) weekends. Will that be okay for them? or does the "pen" need to be bigger?


I know I was sort of shocked when I read the 18 sq ft thing too. Personally I don't think it's enough but to each their own. I like them to have lots of space. To me crowded=dirty=disease. The more space the better. The pen you're planning is plenty big. Mine is about half that, but I have 3+ acres that is also fenced in so I let them out of the small pen to run the whole yard when I can watch them. (By "run" that actually mean follow me around and try to climb on my lap every time I sit down.   ) I do love my NDs but Ohiofarmgirl makes good points (although mine are quiet and not so very bouncy once they're past 6 months) and reasons expressed are why I'm also getting a lamancha. I've really started to get into making cheese and the ND's just don't give me enough milk. Partly because it's so good it gets drank before I can save up enough for cheese. They can be a bugger to milk those small teats but it's not that difficult and I have pretty big hands. It's just a little different technique. But they are adorable, friendly and easy to handle and they are economical to feed.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 3, 2011)

> I've really started to get into making cheese and the ND's just don't give me enough milk.


yep! dont you just get hooked on ALL the things you can do with the milk!?!?!? i'm not sure there is such as thing as "too many milkers"
;-)


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## chandasue (Jan 4, 2011)

Yeah I thought for sure the milk from a couple ND's was going to be plenty when I first was looking at getting goats and I realized quickly that I needed a standard dairy goat to do everything I needed. I'm even wondering if one lamancha is going to be enough!


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 4, 2011)

ha! you might need more! gosh - I need more!

i'm hopin' like heck my Debbie has doelings - i'm keeping them ALL! i bred her to a fancy, from-a-high-producing-momma, prize winning buck so her babies should be spectacular.. whooooot!


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## freemotion (Jan 4, 2011)

I'm going from one Alpine to possibly four in milk this spring!  Woohoo!  Two will be first fresheners, one will be a second freshener, one will be my big producer.....Milk!  Cheese!  Yogurt!  Kefir!  Ice cream!  Pudding!  Cream soups!  Chowders!  And on, and on, and on.....  You can never have enough.


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## iamcuriositycat (Jan 4, 2011)

I don't have a ton of experience, but I love our two little Nigerian dwarf wethers, and want to get a ND milking doe soon. They are sweet, funny, and easy to manage. As someone else said, I am a small female without a lot of muscle power, but I can pick one of my full-grown boys up and carry him if I have to (not far, but still!).

Mostly, I don't have to carry them, though--a feed bucket is a highly effective motivator most of the time, plus they want to be near me and are easy to train in basic manners (not to get into the feed shed, for instance, and not to jump up on the gate when I'm trying to open it).

That may all be true of other small breeds, but I think ND's are an excellent choice.

One other thing, though, that I know from my experience and research with ducks (and that I'm sure carries over to goats), is that the specific line of the livestock matters sometimes as much as the breed. Locate a couple of good quality breeders in your area that select for milking ability and health and temperament (and other qualities that matter to you), and then base your choice of breed on what is available in high quality in your area.

As for the housing question, I've considered housing my goats with my ducks. I think the goats would provide a level of predator protection (not alone, but as an extra layer) to the ducks. But I haven't figured out how to do it effectively and easily. Ducks are very messy and will make water and mud into gross messes, so the goats would have to have a separate drinking facility, and furthermore it would be nearly impossible to keep the goats out of nesting boxes and duck (or chicken) feed. I have occasionally kept a drake or two in with the goats for a few days, feeding them separately, but it's not really a sustainable set-up.

They can definitely be allowed to range together during the day, though--no reason they can't share a pasture, as long as their night-time and feeding set-ups are separate.

Enjoy!


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