# Chestnut Netherland Dwarf crossed with Chinchilla Netherland Dwarf



## Jace Hohenthaner (Nov 10, 2016)

What are the possible colors when breeding a female chinchilla color Netherland Dwarf with a Male Chestnut color Netherland Dwarf?


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## Bunnylady (Nov 10, 2016)

About the only things you can be sure you _won't_ get are BEW and broken. Other than that, your possibilities are just about any color a rabbit can do. Chestnut is expressing all dominant genes, so you can't be sure about what recessives might be hiding there. Chinchilla is nearly the same way, except that the Chin gene is one step down on the dominance ladder in the C series - there still could be a bunch of hidden recessives there, too. 

Do you have pedigrees for these two? That can help you narrow down what is likely to be hiding in your gene pool. Though even then, you can sometimes get some real surprises. I once owned a Sable Point Marten that had nothing but Chestnuts on his pedigree - when he was born, his breeder not only didn't have any idea all that was lurking in his herd, he didn't even know what to call him!


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 10, 2016)

Welcome , glad you joined us.  Chestnut will most likely be the dominant color.


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## Jace Hohenthaner (Nov 10, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> About the only things you can be sure you _won't_ get are BEW and broken. Other than that, your possibilities are just about any color a rabbit can do. Chestnut is expressing all dominant genes, so you can't be sure about what recessives might be hiding there. Chinchilla is nearly the same way, except that the Chin gene is one step down on the dominance ladder in the C series - there still could be a bunch of hidden recessives there, too.
> 
> Do you have pedigrees for these two? That can help you narrow down what is likely to be hiding in your gene pool. Though even then, you can sometimes get some real surprises. I once owned a Sable Point Marten that had nothing but Chestnuts on his pedigree - when he was born, his breeder not only didn't have any idea all that was lurking in his herd, he didn't even know what to call him!



Yes I have the perigee going back three generations.  I'm just hoping I can get some babies that meet the ARBA breed standard to be shown at fair to help out my FFA and donating some for kids who can't get them.


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## Jace Hohenthaner (Nov 10, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> About the only things you can be sure you _won't_ get are BEW and broken. Other than that, your possibilities are just about any color a rabbit can do. Chestnut is expressing all dominant genes, so you can't be sure about what recessives might be hiding there. Chinchilla is nearly the same way, except that the Chin gene is one step down on the dominance ladder in the C series - there still could be a bunch of hidden recessives there, too.
> 
> Do you have pedigrees for these two? That can help you narrow down what is likely to be hiding in your gene pool. Though even then, you can sometimes get some real surprises. I once owned a Sable Point Marten that had nothing but Chestnuts on his pedigree - when he was born, his breeder not only didn't have any idea all that was lurking in his herd, he didn't even know what to call him!


Male pedigree- black, black otter, chestnut
Female- black silver Martin,broken black, broken Chin, black otter, opal


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## Bunnylady (Nov 10, 2016)

OK. You have Agoutis, selfs, and tan patterns on both sides of the pedigree, and both of your rabbits are agouti patterned. Your most likely result is agouti patterns  (Chestnut, Opal, etc). You might get selfs OR tan patterns (otter/marten) from this pairing, but you won't get both.

When dealing with a dwarf breed, there is one gene that is far more important than any color gene, and that's the dwarfing gene. The dwarfing gene is critical to getting that tiny, compact animal described in the breed standard. With it, you get an animal that has a rounder head, shorter, rounder ears, and shorter back and legs. Without it, all of the proportions of the rabbit are a bit longer, and the rabbit winds up half a pound to a pound larger than the breed standard. Unfortunately, the dwarfing gene is a lethal gene - that means that a rabbit that gets a copy of it from both parents dies, typically within 3 days of birth. The dwarfing gene is also a dominant gene, which means that if it is there, you will see its effects; it doesn't "hide."

Every Netherland Dwarf that even comes close to the breed standard has one copy of the dwarfing gene, and one copy of a normal growth gene. If you breed two such animals together, some babies will get the dwarfing gene from one parent, and the normal growth gene from the other parent - those are what we sometimes call "true dwarfs;" they most likely will grow up to be within the size range allowed by the standard. Some babies will get a copy of the dwarfing gene from both parents; they will die (these are what are called "peanuts." They are easy to spot in the nestbox; they have oddly shaped heads, an underdeveloped look to the back legs and body, and are only about 2/3rds the size of normal babies of their breed). And of course, some babies will get the normal growth gene from both parents. These are what we call "false dwarfs," they will almost always wind up too big to show, and have longer body parts that don't really meet the standard, anyway.

Breeding Dwarfs can be challenging. True dwarf does usually have only 2-4 babies in a litter, so just having a large enough collective mass in the nest box to keep the kits from dying of hypothermia can be tricky at some times of the year. It's very easy for these little girls to get overweight; a lot of people have bred a doe a couple of times, given her a little time off to recover, had her gain too much weight, and never managed to get her successfully bred again. Breeding two true dwarfs together sooner or later will produce some peanuts, and it can be very hard to see something die like that, even knowing that there is nothing you can do to stop it. Breeding two false dwarfs together will never, ever get you a true-to-type Dwarf, so you need to know the difference. Most people don't keep false dwarf bucks as breeders, though a lot find a false dwarf doe useful - they are often referred to as brood does.  A false dwarf doe tends to have larger litters (5-7 kits, typically) and as she doesn't have the dwarfing gene, can't have peanuts, so everything she produces at least has a chance to live. While a false dwarf doe won't ever be showable herself, if she is bred to a nice, small, typey buck, she has at least the potential to_ produce_ show bunnies.

. . . . . or maybe you knew all this already? I only mentioned it, because I have known a lot of people who have gotten into dwarf breed rabbits, and have worried themselves half to death trying to save peanuts that had no chance to live anyway.


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## Jace Hohenthaner (Nov 10, 2016)




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## Jace Hohenthaner (Nov 10, 2016)




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## Jace Hohenthaner (Nov 10, 2016)

The first photo is the female, she's only 9 weeks.  Not breeding anytime soon.  The second is the male.  The heaviest in her pedigree is 2.09. He is 2.7 pounds right now and a little over a year.


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