# Dogs!!!



## norcal (Dec 11, 2009)

The goaties are okay.

*Whew*

I heard barking this morning, and I went out (thinking it was nothing) and TWO German shepherds were in my goat shelter.   OMG!   I screamed bloody murder.    My stomach hurts from all the screaming I did (probably from the adrenaline too).   I ran down the hill w/ a stick  & hubby went & grabbed the pellet gun (the only one that is operable right now).    The goats weren't coming out, but I found them OMG unharmed!!  *whew*    

I called animal control, but I don't know whose dogs they are.   Ugh!


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## FarmerChick (Dec 11, 2009)

WOW that is awful....thank goodness you stopped that before tragedy hit.  germans are big dogs.  whew.....

how did they get in?  being a big mutt I am sure they kinda got in however they wanted..LOL

Ask neighbors if you ever get the chance, you know, hey who owns 2 big germans?  you might hit on the owner one day and you can then take action to be sure they are penned.

Ugh

I am sure the adrenaline is still streaming..it would be for me!


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## norcal (Dec 11, 2009)

They had them cornered in their small shelter.   One dog was in the shelter, the other was in the pen.    

Hubby is walking the fence, but I think the regular shepherd went over the fence on the way out, the white one hubby thought went through or under somewhere.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 11, 2009)

thank goodness this was all timed while you were there and intervened.

the horror of what would have gone down when you found them would be just sickening....whew.

Since they have been there and done that ---are you taking plans to somehow "sure up the pen into Fort Knox?"
Ugh---when the pens are compromised you never look at it the same.  I know.


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## norcal (Dec 11, 2009)

I don't have the money to "Fort Knox" 1.5 acres.  
I could leave them in their pen (small fenced area around the shelter), but don't think that would be much of a life for them.   Being mauled isn't either, but I don't know....


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## cmjust0 (Dec 11, 2009)

Three words -- livestock guardian dog.

We had a rottie and a boxer show up here at about 11:30pm one night not too long ago, and our LGD Ivan (a 22mo old Sarplaninac) met them at the gate with a deep rumbling growl and a bunch of shiny white teeth on full display.  

They thought better of their little excursion once they saw him...then me...then one of my BC's (mistake-she shouldn't have been let out)....and heard the other four dogs barking in the house.  

You could almost see them talking to one another like...holy crap, we'd better go...and they literally RAN back to the neighbor's place down the road, from whence they came..  

We got in touch with the neighbor and let them know their dogs were out, and we haven't seen hide nor hair of them since.  Whether they fixed their containment problem or the dogs are still in hiding is anyone's guess.


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## mossyStone (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree you really should think about a LGD, We  have a large coyote  pack around us... We have a Rottie who has live'd out with the goats and birds and he has kept the pature free of dogs and coyotes.. he even chased a bobcat away last yr......We just got our frist great pryness pup 2 weeks ago to learn the ropes from our Rottie who is ageing and has now earned  retirement as soon as the pup is going good!
They will save your goats..i wouldnt want to have mine out in pasture or pen with out there LGD...

I am so glad you prevented an attack to your goaties...... 

Mossy Stone Farm Pygora's


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## norcal (Dec 11, 2009)

I've read about all of your LGD's so many times.  I soooo want one.  But, I can't.   I have a child who is developmentally delayed (as well as disabled & deaf) and I just can't bring a large dog around him.   I cannot in my right mind.   I know that sounds paranoid, but that's just me being overprotective mom.  

I would hate to lose my goats!!   Really I would.  But, I can't put my son in any type of danger.   He doesn't understand how to act around or treat animals.   And while he's been okay around the beagle, she's small enough (30#) that I'm just not that worried.   

I understand that the point of them is to stay out in the pasture, but the kid does like to roam the property at times (yes, he's supervised, but.....).   

Just understand me when I say I can't do that.   I wish I had more payola to electrify the fence, maybe next summer.   

They are in a CLOSED shelter at night.


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## mossyStone (Dec 11, 2009)

Now this is just my exp im sure other will have theres, but i trust my LGD 100% around my daughter he was raised with her loves her and i think would die to protect her...  Our puppie is being raised the same way he knows who his people are from day one....
But i so understand your postion.... you have to do whats right for your child....  Like you im always outside with the kids and goats.

Your doing a great job at protecting your goats .. Just keep one step of head of the dogs who are coming around 

Mossy Stone Farm Pygora's


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## FarmerChick (Dec 11, 2009)

yea you are darned if ya do and darned if you don't.

as good as a protection dog would be---they are more work and another animal at the house.  sometimes getting a new dog is not the answer for everyone of course.

electric fencing around the perimeter sure could be a deterent....at least they are shut up at night so that helps some of the night time scary time problems.

UGH

I am sure you will find the right solution for you.  If fingers crossed those mutts are miles away by now if you are lucky.  

Did they look like wild dogs? or someone's pets?


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## cmjust0 (Dec 11, 2009)

I can certainly understand your being fearful of having such an incredibly large and powerful dog around a child with physical and developmental disabilities..  Let's get that out of the way, because I don't want you to feel like I'm pushing you or questioning your decision or anything like that..

But...  ...for the life of me, I really can't imagine Ivan hurting someone with whom he's familiar and comfortable, especially if that someone was small.  And I mean that quite literally...like, I really can't even think up a circumstance under which I can reasonably envision it happening.

I even considered what you said about your son not understanding how to treat or act around animals and applied it in a worst-case-scenario type situation..  Like...if that were a child in this household, and Ivan knew him, would Ivan snap if the boy were to yank his coat or hit him or kick him or something like that?  I believe in my heart that the answer is NO WAY.   

Ivan probably wouldn't _understand_ something like that, but I truly feel like he'd just go find somewhere else to be if it made him uncomfortable.  And if Ivan doesn't want you near him, you won't get near him.  I promise you that..  Like, sometimes if I wear coveralls or a different jacket or something 'obscuring' like that into the barnyard, there are times when I can't touch him with a 10' pole.  It's clear that he's about 99% sure it's me, but I'm "different" somehow, so he's wary and keeps his distance.  No growling, no barking...just distance.  

I can also tell you that I kinda broke bad with Ivan one morning for getting my pants muddy as I was heading off for work (I know -- totally my fault)..  I didn't strike the dog or anything, but just sorta yelled and jumped at him to GET BACK..  He took it pretty hard.  I was so mad as I left out, but then as I drove along I began to feel really, really bad and wished very much that I hadn't done that..  Over the course of a busy day, though, I managed to forget all about it.  

Well, he didn't. 

When I got home that evening and went to say hi to him, he moved away from me..  He didn't run...it was more like "Ok, I get it...I'm not supposed to be near you anymore."  Not fear...sadness, or as close as a dog can communicate sadness to a human.  It took me a few seconds to figure out what was up, but when I did I felt absolutely HORRIBLE and had to spend a few minutes to reassure him and apologize for my stupidity.  Once he figured out that I was OK with him, he was sooooooo happy...like a weight had been lifted off his shoulders.

I still feel like a turd over that..  

Anyway, point being that they're extremely intelligent and very, very, very sensitive animals.  If your son were to hurt one that grew up around him, my thinking is that the dog would simply avoid him rather than ever confront him.  That, to me, is the worst case scenario.  

Best case would be that instead of the boy coming to understand the nature of the dog, the dog would come to understand the nature of the boy....that..particular..boy....and I really can see that happening.

But, like I said....I can totally see where you're coming from.  

I guess it's just that I could also totally see where someone was coming from if they said they wanted a LGD breed because their child had physical and developmental disabilities, and they wanted a very sensitive breed that would be understanding, patient, and watchful of him.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 11, 2009)

At least you don't get rogue LGD's coming up your driveway! Theres a farm on the next concession that breeds Akbash dogs and they have a big male that always abandons his herd and ends up on our driveway. He GUARDS our goats and chickens, but I'm still worried he'll do something to the other dogs or the animals. He's not small after all.


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## norcal (Dec 12, 2009)

There's always a chance of a situation where you can't control the dog.   And yet, maybe the dog is only attacking another dog, but the kid gets in the middle of it.   My parents had a couple of dogs that insisted on fighting w/ other dogs.   Of course it was always when friends were over (who brought their dogs), and there were kids around (my dad got hurt by his dog before, as well as a classmate of mine by his).   Too many scenarios, I'm sure we all couldn't come up with EVERY single one, and be sure that our dog would act perfectly.   

    jmho also.  

But, I appreciate all the words of encouragement.


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## ()relics (Dec 12, 2009)

Get a jenny donkey....They are too big to bring in the house, so you won't be tempted to try it, and they hate dogs,coyotes,strangers....pretty much everything that enters their pasture ,even Your dog, that doesn't belong....If you had a donkey the only problem you would have had after the "dog incident" is; What to do with 2 dead dogs...she would probably not have killed them but she surely would have tried....My donkey has chased many "strangers" out of my pasture....jmo they don't work for everyone.


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## Rock Farmer (Dec 13, 2009)

If you could put a hot wire on the outside of the fence about 6-8 inches off the ground it would probably solve your dog problems.  You will have to keep grass off of the wire so it would not be grounded though.  My electric fence was some of the best money I ever spent.  Talk about peace of mind.  You might also run a tight, *I mean tight*, strand of barbed wire on the outside of the fence about 2 inches off of the ground.  A dog will think twice before forcing his nose under that wire.  You can attach your existing fencing to the wire with hog rings.  If you have a spot in your fence that has a gap between the fencing and the ground, you can attach chicken wire to the bottom of the fencing with hog rings.  The chicken wire lays outside the pen on the ground and you throw some dirt and rocks on it to hold it down.  You do not have to completly bury it.  Most dogs try and dig at the base of the upright fencing.  When they hit the chicken wire, they are stopped.  If finances allow it, the hot wire is the way to go though.


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## norcal (Dec 14, 2009)

()relics said:
			
		

> Get a jenny donkey.....


Interesting!!    hhhhhmmmmm.....

Thanks for all the ideas folks.   I'm still pretty paranoid.  Today is the first day they are out in the pasture again.   Hubby fixed some spots that may have been where they came in (no telling though).


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## dianneS (Dec 17, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Three words -- livestock guardian dog.


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## Cottage Cheese (Dec 17, 2009)

OH MY GOODNESS NORCAL!!!! The EXACT same thing happened to me last night, except the girls were out free ranging. Glad to hear that they are okay. My story is under " 30 seconds "


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## cmjust0 (Dec 17, 2009)

I had the same thing happen to me...neighbor's rottweiler and boxer...but our LGD met them at the gate to the barnyard and pulled a Gandalf..

"YOU   SHALL   NOT   PAAAAAAAAASS!!"



They didn't, either.  

I came out to see what he was mad about (he went from his general alert bark to his _angry_ bark, so I knew immediately that something was up), at which point I saw the dogs, they saw me, then my BC saw and started after them (...she often crosses that fine line between courage and stupidity...) and they decided they'd had enough excitement and HIGH TAILED it back to the neighbor's house.

Had it not been for Ivan (the LGD), I think I probably would have been alerted by the sound of dying goats.  


ETA:

I just realized I'd already posted this story in this very thread...   That's what happens when you hit the ripe old age of 31.....the mind starts going.


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## BDial (Dec 17, 2009)

Strories like this make me thankfull that my mare is as nasty as she is. I have actually watched her kill a dog. It wasn't pretty but the owner had had plenty of warnings. It was chasing my friends horse and drove her into the fence. Dancer finally got ahold of him and threw him the pounded him into the ground. The dogs owner tried sueing  me and the judge made her pay for the horses vet bill instead.

ETA: I would recomend runing a couple of strands of electric fence. Save up over the next couple of months and get what you need all at once or buy one thing at a time.


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## norcal (Dec 18, 2009)

Thinking of rabbits instead of goats.       Am still just a little stressed.


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## adoptedbyachicken (Dec 18, 2009)

If you are concerned over a dog with your child I sure would not get a donkey.  I have both and let me tell you the 3 dogs are totally trusted around any children but not the donkey.  No way.  And the donkey is no longer any good at keeping the livestock safe, he 'retired' in his mind at about age 4.  He just takes care of himself, nothing else.

I have 2 Maremmas and an English Shepherd.  Both could be totally trustworthy around your child with the right introduction and training.  And I have no losses of my poultry anymore.  None.  They free range with no fear here, in fact now the problem I have is that they want to free range anywhere and expect 3 dogs to keep up with them going 25 directions.  I have no fencing that keeps in poultry and they used to stick around the barn but now they are willing to go right down to the meadow and beyond.  This batch of layers has only known the safety of dogs, the dogs had the place well guarded by the time they got here, unlike the last batch that grew up loosing lots to coyotes.  The turkeys are easier for the dogs to guard as they stick together.  I might have to pen my layers for their own good, and for the dogs sanity.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 18, 2009)

I've been doing this well over 10 years and then some, lol, and I never had a dog attack.   I had dogs in the area, near my fenceline etc. but never had the true problem.

For me, I see a loose dog and it has ONLY a few times of coming around and then I shoot.   I will not lose livestock to loose dogs, simple as that.

The owners who let them loose kill them, not me.

The strays, well as I feel bad for them, I still win.

But the few times I had to handle this problem, I do try to make it easy if I can....like one dog a lab mutt pup was in the pasture with the goats....not really doing anything but giving them the eye a bit.......friendly, so I got it, bale of string around the neck and off to the shelter.   I have seen this big pup about 5 times or so hanging around and decided I would stop it, but I couldn't shoot the cuss..LOL

About a month later chatting over the fenceline my backyard pasture neigbor mentions the neighbors dog that "thankfully" disappeared because it was bothering his dogs....and he described it and had chatted with the neighbors to contain it....and they wouldn't.......I laughed thinking, hmm...he won't ever be a problem again..LOL.  I didn't say a word.

Goats and such are prey.   Dogs are predators.  You have to take hard stance when we must.  Nothing else we can do to protect livestock.


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## foxywench (Dec 19, 2009)

see i have a HUGE issue with people that allow their dogs to run loose ANYWHERE.

its dangerous for othe rpeople, its dangerous for livestock and its dangerous to the dog...people that do that, knowingly or not put their dogs in danger.
and the people who assume THEIR dog will never get into trouble, would "never" harm someones chickens ect.  NEEDS beeting with a stick.

i dont have nay livestock right now, but i have 6 dogs, they are exposed and socilized form day 1 with a veriety of animals, i would trust them with a mouse for heavens sake, and yet they are NEVER permitted to roam, they are securly fenced when out, on leash when not contained by the fence...

i dont understand why anyone would have a dog and let it wander?

LSG's are a different matter, their job is to be out there with the livestock and ive never met a lsg who truly wandered, ive met plenty who like to guard the neighbors livestock as well as their own, but they never wander far from their own "family"

but peoples "pets"  i just dont understand why people are that irresponsible.
if you cant properly contain/control your dog, dont have one.

im glad yours are safe.

in terms of LSG's as a breed, as long as they are introduced as pups, kids become like the livestock they protect.

my frineds pyrenese is a big ole teddy bear when it comes to the "family"  she lets her goat kids climb and but her, and the same goes for the kids, shes got a special needs 5yr old and had much the same worries...but after much worry it was proven that Angel is bullet proof.  shes decided that the 5yr old is her baby and while she likes to climbe and snuggle with her, angle lets her do it all, and lord help the idiot whos not family that comes neer that child!
i wouldnt suggest letting them be together unsupervised of course as accidents can happen...but as long as children are introduced as part of the livestock to protect...


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## Bonnie_Brook_Mom (Dec 20, 2009)

Two words......Electric Fence!   you don't have to do the entire 1.5 acres, just a big enough area for the goats.   Our system can be adjusted, make it bigger, move the grazing area, etc.  Our neighbor has Alpacas & is worried about her herd, she's heard howling at night, coydogs, we presume, they are known to be in this area.  We have an electrified pen enclosure, & never had to worry.  We've seen the goats get zapped, some chickens get zapped, our own dog, even my grown son who didn't believe me when I said "don't touch!"  We've both been shocked on occasion.  Trust me, no dog is going to be stupid enough to try it twice!


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