# Remedial training for an Anatolian/Pyr/Akbash and me



## Wisher1000 (Jun 7, 2015)

I came over from BYC to solicit help from you LGD gurus (Southern by choice - Elevan) I have had dogs all my life and have always done well with training.  THIS ONE'S DIFFERENT (but of course, you already knew that.)

I need some tips for working with my LGD.  He is an 8 month old Anatolian/Akbash/Pyrenees cross and weighs about 80 pounds.  He is a sweet heart and loves me and loves to play.  The problem is that he has no respect for me.  I have never had a dog in my life that I couldn't control with just my voice.......until now.  This dog does exactly what he wants and cares not if I approve.  He will mouth my hands, and legs, and butt and cannot be put off with a stern voice.  I have tried growling at him (which will make either of my other two dogs piddle.)  He will get down in the play pose (front legs on the ground, bottom in the air, tail waggin') and growl back at me.  He has never been aggressive toward me, but he has never considered me the boss.  I am so confused.  I have never had this trouble.  Being the pack leader has always just happened naturally and I have never had to work at it.  He will sit on command, and he will come when called, IF he thinks I will pet him and IF he has nothing better to do.  If he starts chasing the chickens, I can "bark" his name or "NO!" and he will not slack up even a little.  I cannot convince him he is in trouble.  

Any suggestions or guidance will be greatly appreciated.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 7, 2015)

How long have you had him?
Do you have livestock?
What is his "job"

LOL- those are my first questions


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## brogan007 (Jun 7, 2015)

Contact Southern by Choice, contract her services, beg her to accept your dog for a training spell......if she can't fix your dog...nobody can.  The woman is amazing with LGD...IF...if youre fortunate...she'll take your dog and the money you pay her will be well worth it.


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## Latestarter (Jun 7, 2015)

Well, I see you've already "met" Southern  disregard my intro on your other post  

Hey Southern! Hope you're doing well. I've been working on an Email to you. Work has been horrendous. Will try to get it finished and attach the pics and get it off to you. Take care of yourself aye?!


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## Southern by choice (Jun 7, 2015)

Thank You @brogan007  and @Latestarter .

@Latestarter - LOL I have one for you too! Just occupied. Will update soon!


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 7, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> How long have you had him?
> Do you have livestock?
> What is his "job"
> 
> LOL- those are my first questions



I have had Biscuit since he was nine weeks old.  I drove four hours and picked him up from the farm where he was born.  He had been the last of the litter to be rehomed.  Too early, I know.  They had him in a solid walled horse stall, alone, as his poor mom was pulled down to skin and bone and losing hair in big patches. They offered her to me as well, and I have often wished (there I go again) I had brought her home.  

When I first brought him home, at night and while I was at work, I kept him in an open air chicken coop where he could see the chickens and goats.  The chickens could peck his nose when he pushed it through the wire, but the goats were not close enough to have direct contact.  He had clean pine bedding, chew toys, plenty of food and fresh water.  He was quite happy there.  I had planned to house him in the goat barn but my grumpy goats were being too rough on him when we entered their pen and I was afraid he would be scared by them and maybe even hurt.  At five months, I began to let him stay with my elderly male lab (who has to be penned during the day but who patrols the farm at night.  If that lab can get to a chicken, he will kill it.)  I let the pup out to do chores with me in the afternoons and on the weekends.  We feed and do other animal chores, walk the property line, and mingle with the animals together. The lab loved him, but he soon grew so big that the lab couldn't correct him and Biscuit ran/runs roughshod over him.  The old lab will be laying in the sun, resting and the pup will climb on top of him and lay straddle his back.  The lab barks, growls, snaps and hollars, but he can't get up.  Biscuit chews on his ears and head.  I even saw Biscuit dragging the 65lb lab around the yard by the tail!  Now, I keep the lab in the pen alone, for his own protection.  Biscuit plays too rough and the poor old dog can't stop him.

I caught Biscuit with a chicken one night.  He was eating it.  I suspect the lab killed it and Biscuit took it from the lab, although that is just my speculation.  I chased him (walking) all around the 23 acre property and around the house three times.  He would stand and chew on the bird until I got within 10 feet and them he would snatch the bird up and run 50 - 60 feet and start eating it again.  Then, he began growling when I got close.  Eventually, I tackled him and took the bird.  I held him down and scolded him and told him it was MY CHICKEN.  He fought me for 45 minutes trying to get away.  He scratched me with his feet and actually got his teeth on me a couple of times but didn't break my skin.  He was not being aggressive, and I was not hurting him, he just didn't want me to hold him down.  I did anyway.  Finally, he relaxed, and I kept my hand on his shoulder until he was completely relaxed and we both caught our breath. 

After that, he was better, but soon forgot that I was stronger and began treating me like a toy again.  He will grab my shirt tail or pants leg if I am walking away from him or trying to go into the house.  If I "bow up" to him in disapproval, he will sit, then relax his back and flop over on his side, fully expecting me to scratch his belly or love on him.  If I don't, he'll get up and try to engage me in play, again.  He loves to play with our 15lb female house dog.  She will snap and growl and jump up on his chest.  He will fall, dramatically, and she will attack his head and neck.  She bites the scruff of his neck and shakes it as hard as she can, then she 'fleas' him on the face.  He loves it.  When she gets tired of beating him up, she tries to go off and hunt lizards but he won't let her.  He will pick her up by the shoulders and when she struggles and growls (genuine anger) he runs from her and she chases him in large circles.  During this game, he has nearly knocked me down several times by slamming into me full speed.  He nearly take my legs from under me!  He gets close on purpose, but does not pay enough attention to where I am to keep from hitting me - no manners, no respect.  I tried tripping him, thinking if he fell when he got too close to me he would give me a wider path.  Nope, he fell, rolled and was running again in one motion.  I had a black and purple bruise on my lower leg within minutes, he was no worse for wear.

His job is to keep the varmints from getting the (200) chickens and (2) goats.  I have had no losses to predators since he came here.  I am happy with his progress in that regard, I just want him to see me as the pack leader. I know I will have to put in some time teaching him what is acceptable and what is not, I just don't know how to enforce my rules on him when he doesn't care if I am unhappy with his behavior.  I also know that he will calm down as he reaches two and will likely not be such a pain.  

He is already a good guardian, I am totally in love with him.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2015)

Of course I cannot see what he's doing and can only go on descriptions of behaviors. So my first thought is he is very playful right now. He is at the teenage stage.
5-7 months is the pubescent stage
8-9 is teenage

Hormones are dramatically increasing at his stage of development.
This is typically a difficult period for many LGD owners.
Although he may be outgrowing this puppyhood silliness there is also a rise in confidence and dominance which can also mean realy bad behaviors.

This is the hard part for me...
This is the part where I have to tell you some of the things you allowed has contributed to the issues he now has.

First It was good that you gave him some protection at first as a wee pup.  but.... here it comes....

Protecting them from "everything" for tooo long allows them to think they are at the top of the order. 
By 12 weeks it would have been best for him to get "Learned" by the goats. This is away of teaching a LGD respect.
As a Livestock Guardian they must submit to livestock, sometimes that means taking some hard knocks. They learn they are not the #1! 
Periods of playtime to get energy out as a pup with your lab would have been fine but that was too much time and he needed to learn a) how to be board b) respect
Housedogs should be respected by the LGD. LGD's should submit to housedogs when OUTSIDE of their field. This must be taught.
I am a strong believer in not mixing LGD's and housedogs in the livestock area.
I want to quote some of your statements and give a brief response...


Wisher1000 said:


> I was afraid he would be scared by them and maybe even hurt. At five months, I began to let him stay with my elderly male lab


This was way to late. At 5 months he should have been full time with goats and poultry with no housedog with him. Only to be taken out for playtime because he is a single and needs an energy release.



Wisher1000 said:


> I let the pup out to do chores with me in the afternoons and on the weekends.


This is not enough time with his charges to learn his job. Although this was very good that time out also meant "playtime" in his mind.



Wisher1000 said:


> The lab loved him, but he soon grew so big that the lab couldn't correct him and Biscuit ran/runs roughshod over him.


This again brings in the above mentioned... difinitive line f what and when together time is appropriate.
A no-LGD breed really cannot effectively train or teach a LGD breed. Their (LGD breeds) communication is different as well as their play and LGD games are unique to LGD's.



Wisher1000 said:


> Biscuit chews on his ears and head.


VERY NOT GOOD! This is not good on many levels. First flag is he very well could do this to future goat kids, goats, lambs etc.
He is not getting that these are inappropriate.



Wisher1000 said:


> I even saw Biscuit dragging the 65lb lab around the yard by the tail!


He  should be seriously corrected for this and any attempt to dominate the lab.



Wisher1000 said:


> I caught Biscuit with a chicken one night. He was eating it. I suspect the lab killed it and Biscuit took it from the lab, although that is just my speculation.


I wouldn't be surprised either way if Biscuit did kill the chicken.
The poultry stage is generally at it's worst at 7-9 months.
(My dogs have been all over the map! Toli's tend to be far worse when younger)



Wisher1000 said:


> I chased him (walking) all around the 23 acre property and around the house three times.





Wisher1000 said:


> He would stand and chew on the bird until I got within 10 feet and them he would snatch the bird up and run 50 - 60 feet and start eating it again.


He thinks this is a game and by you chasing him all over the acreage you played into it. I know- you didn't know, only in hindsight can you see those things.



Wisher1000 said:


> Eventually, I tackled him and took the bird. I held him down and scolded him and told him it was MY CHICKEN. He fought me for 45 minutes trying to get away. He scratched me with his feet and actually got his teeth on me a couple of times but didn't break my skin. He was not being aggressive, and I was not hurting him, he just didn't want me to hold him down. I did anyway. Finally, he relaxed, and I kept my hand on his shoulder until he was completely relaxed and we both caught our breath


Since you did finally get him you did the right thing! YOU WON!
This is one you needed to win!
The using his teeth on you although not aggressively is still a no no.

There is a long list of things I would ask and say to do but the very first thing would be to get a PRONG collar.
Only use the prong collar on him during training sessions.
15-20 minutes every evening when it is cool do some basic obedience with him.

By basic obedience I mean teach him to walk on lead at a basic heal, doesn't have to be a true perfect heal ... just where he is not pulling but walking beside you. You will do this in an oval pattern like you are showing him. Not going for a walk. It is called a controlled setting.
You will expect him to move with you going slow fast slow medium etc. 
Praise him along the way, if he pulls and tries to drag you bring him under quick correction HEAL while you sharply pull back and release the taughtness of the prong collar/lead.

As this begins to improve you will sometimes stop and command sit. Praise. Command stay while he is still sitting, if he tries to stand command stay BEFORE he actually rises.

*This is building trust and DOMINANCE! YOURS!* 

Get a 30 ft lunge lead or 20ft (TSC)-you will need this for future...

While still on a 6ft lead as you work with the sit and stay and heal you will work on stepping in front of him and moving a foot or two away etc. while he sits. Your goal is to work up to a 20-30 ft lead and him remain in stay.

I am NOT promoting you making an obedience dog out of him... they need some of that hardheadedness do what I want attitude but this is all for the purpose of you gaining control.

Not letting me quote anymore so I will do a second post...


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2015)

Wisher1000 said:


> If I don't, he'll get up and try to engage me in play, again. He loves to play with our 15lb female house dog. She will snap and growl and jump up on his chest. He will fall, dramatically, and she will attack his head and neck. She bites the scruff of his neck and shakes it as hard as she can, then she 'fleas' him on the face. He loves it. When she gets tired of beating him up, she tries to go off and hunt lizards but he won't let her. He will pick her up by the shoulders and when she struggles and growls (genuine anger) he runs from her and she chases him in large circles. During this game, he has nearly knocked me down several times by slamming into me full speed.



The first few words here are real tell tale signs of what HE believes YOUR role is* "If I don't, he'll*....."

By allowing him this and allowing the inappropriate play with the small dog you have a lot of back tracking to do.

NO NO NO and NO is what you will really need to get use to teaching him. 
The 5-7 month stage is a very active stage yet it is also the stage they must learn boredom. BOREDOM is good!
He is already 8 months... way behind.

I suspect he has been entertained way too much.
Somethings like when you are doing chores and he is right there you need to say move, go. Just because he wants attention doesn't mean you cater to it.

Distinct areas for him is best. A LGD needs their field, their territory , their job. The Akbash in him is also where a great deal of stubbornness is coming from... not that all the other LGD breeds don't have their fair share of that as well. LOL

Grabbing at your legs, hands etc is a huge NO NO and you will need to grab that muzzle hard and hold it and enforce a hardy NO.

Consistency  and sticking through for 30 days should do the job.
Do not tolerate ANY control tactics. If he tries to engage do not chase after him, turn the other way and start walking.

I suspect Biscuit is a patroller and they are much harder in their first year. 

The old adage 


Wisher1000 said:


> I also know that he will calm down as he reaches two and will likely not be such a pain.


is NOT TRUE! An ill behaved LGD or poorly trained and developed dog will NOT just outgrow it. They just end up in shelters, rescues, eventually euthanized.
See it ALL the time. 

He is young enough to work with and retrain. The whole obedience time will cause a bond of trust and respect and you will be the master. You must be diligent. Sadly many that are advised this want a quick fix and never heard of obedience work with a LGD so they don't follow through. within 1 month they rehome the dog, never giving the dog the opportunity to learn submission.

BTW- Neutering him will not help this situation.

Now- where are pictures? It is a rule here. All LGD people must provide pics of their dogs!  

You are more than welcome to pm me with any other questions or issues that you may not want to share publicly.


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 8, 2015)

Wow ...... digesting ...............

(Questions and Pics to follow)


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 8, 2015)

Biscuit, being assaulted by Paisley. 



Testing the air... sorry about the orientation, could someone flip them for me?  Won't work on my phone. 



The chickens are terrified, can't you tell?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2015)

Good dog!
The one thing you really have going for you is he is good with his charges and that is a great thing! 

He just needs to know you are boss.


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 8, 2015)

First off, Thank you!  Thank you for your reply and for the time you took to address this with me so thoroughly.  I sincerely appreciate it.   

Next, I think I may have painted a bleaker picture of my Biscuit than I intended.  He is working out well here and I am thrilled with him.    I understand that the problems I am having are my problems, caused by my ignorance and misguided good intentions.  That's why I'm here (see the title of my post - remedial training, dog and me!)  I did my research, thought I was ready, but there is SO much conflicting information out there..... I wish (there I go again) I had known the wealth of info on BYC's sister sight.  I live on BYC.  



Southern by choice said:


> This is the hard part for me...
> This is the part where I have to tell you some of the things you allowed has contributed to the issues he now has.



Don't worry about this with me.  I fully understand that I have made some huge mistakes with this dog and am committed to correcting my mistakes for both our sakes.  I am begging you to be brutally honest, skirting the issue for the sake of my feelings will not help me at all.  Besides, I'm thinking of getting another LGD and plan to do that one right the first time.  



Southern by choice said:


> He thinks this is a game and by you chasing him all over the acreage you played into it. I know- you didn't know, only in hindsight can you see those things.



My description didn't do justice to his behavior.  He was standing over it with his head down (protective) and his eyes on me.  His body language said, "You can't have it, it's mine."  When he picked it up to move, he grabbed it and snatched it away as he trotted or ran from me.  I felt he didn't want a fight, but was willing to fight rather than give it up.  It was most certainly not a game to him.  He was nervous, and trying to wolf it down before I took it from him.  I kept after him because I didn't want to let him keep it under those conditions.  I became concerned when he began to growl as he stood over it, although it is possible that he was growling at the old lab who was beside me.  I sent the lab off before the fight, HE minds me instantly.

Biscuit has chased the birds since that night, but not with the focus of a serial killer.  I know it's possible that he killed it, but I truly feel that the lab killed it and several others that were not penned that night, and Biscuit just managed to snatch one for himself.  The next day, I took them both to the area (an empty stall where the chickens like to dust bathe) where the chickens were killed.  Biscuit ambled in, nosed around, paid little attention to the chickens that were flopping around in the dust, and walked out.  The lab slinked in and beat a hasty retreat when he saw me.  GUILTY!

The bad manners I described are not constant.  He does spend time watching and patrolling, sniffing the air and bounding off into the woods barking at something that I can't see or hear.  Once he is satisfied that all is well, then he wants to play.  Play with me, the old lab, the house dog, the chickens, the goats...

I am quite pleased with the pup as a guardian.     He has been doing his job, in spite of MY ignorance.  The only thing I want is to have some control over him with my voice.  I may never get it like I want it, but I have to be able to call him off if he is after something he shouldn't be (chickens, goats, house dog, neighbor's dog, a person...)  Right now, I feel that he is thumbing his nose at me,   or ignoring me completely.

I will start right away with the obedience training.  He will already sit and lay down, but they are only when he is focused on me.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2015)

*I got the impression he is a great guardian!* 
*Not bleak at all! *Just the power issue. You are *very smart* to recognize that this needs correction. Powerful 130-150 lb dogs are much harder to handle and correct. 
He does look like a babylove!  

More often than not the advice given would be to flip him a few times so he knows who is boss BUT there are many issues with that in itself. Depending on his individual temperament that could cause more issues, more challenge even total loss of respect all the way to the opposite spectrum of distrust.

It sounds like he is a fine dog just needs that balance.


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## bonbean01 (Jun 8, 2015)

I'm following every word...LOL...and still learning and still have a long way to go...thank you Southern for being patient with us all and for the help!!!   I'm still on the case with my GP/Anatolian girl Keera who just turned 11 months last week.  Biscuit is a handsome boy  

Keera was at her very worst when the lambs were first born at age 5 to 6 months, and out she went from there and to start with her only sheep was a one year wether who would not let her get away with much...he butted and rolled her a few times and she'd yelp and I'd cringe...but she learned that Charlie was not to be messed with.  Now who keeps a year old wether ???  Me...I've joked he has been my "sacrificial lamb" in the training of Keera, but he was already big when we got her.  I couldn't have her in with the very pregnant ewes and newborn lambs at that age...in a perfect world she would have come along at a different season.

She is not perfect yet by any means, but even in the past few months, have seen her now stopping herself from chasing, or just needed a short verbal reminder....this is huge progress for this girl...may not sound like it, but she has not been shall we say...easy?  LOL  This is my first ever LGD and Southern has been my "go to " person...thank you again 

Saw a big difference in Keera's respect for me when I did the leash training and sure you will too!  She was much like Biscuit before that.  Also at her size, I appreciate being able to move her to different pastures or take her to the vet with good behavior on the leash...really...thought it not possible and she learned all that Southern just told you very quickly....and you'll think you can't love your dog more than you already do...but trust me...you will


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 8, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Grabbing at your legs, hands etc is a huge NO NO and you will need to grab that muzzle hard and hold it and enforce a hardy NO.



Tell me more about this technique.  It is not something I have done before.  The techniques I have successfully used for years - alpha roll, sharp pokes with fingernails, low growls, stares, stance, etc. - are not working with him.

I also want your honest opinion on electric training collars.  I have one, and have used it in the past.  I found that it can be very effective, if used correctly.  I am not heavy handed and only use it as reinforcement, not punishment.  The model I have has a vibrate mode that I used the most.  It just gets the dog refocused on what he has been told to do.  With retrievers, I can call out an already solid command and if the dog does not immediately comply, I use the vibrate mode to get his attention.  

Sniff, sniff,sniff, "Interesting smells here, I'm intrigued"  

"Down!" 

Sniff sniff BUZZZZ  "OH, crap!  What did Mom say do?  Oh, yeah, Down"  Plop.  

They knew that the shock would come if I wasn't obeyed.  I only rarely use the shock at all.  It loses it effectiveness if you use it often.  

I have used the collar on Biscuit, but not much.  I will tell him something, like come here - out of the coop, and make sure he knows what I want.  Then use the buzz to get him moving.  He freezes, thinks a second and leaves the coop, likely not because I said, but because there is something weird going on in there and he chooses to leave!  I have only used the shock on him once when he almost caught a chicken that he was chasing.  Timing is everything and as soon as he was about to reach it, I nicked him with the collar.  He jumped back and yelped.  It stopped that chase, but he still likes to scatter them and will slow chase them from time to time.  I put the collar on him most days when I get home, and many days, I don't activate it at all.  There have been a couple of times that he has not been wearing it when I would likely have used it.  Just yesterday, my husband went to the road to take the trash.  Biscuit went too and went across the road to where my neighbor has three pit bulls chained.  I didn't see it, was only told by my hubby, but if he had been wearing the collar, I would have been tempted to nick him if he approached the chained dogs.  I wish (there I go again) that I had observed his actions when he saw the dogs, but I didn't.  Hubby called me on the cell and I came outside with the house dog.  She barked and Biscuit came running.  I would like to be able to just call him back and have him comply.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2015)

I will get back to you in a bit... building Phase 2 of the barn. Trying to beat the heat!


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 8, 2015)

Take your time!

Another question - I have been thinking that I could trap a coon so that I can watch his reaction to it and use it to teach him that coons are bad, and can be dangerous, but I am not sure how I would go about that lesson.  Have you done this before?  Thoughts? 

I have seen my old lab kill a boar coon but that was years ago.  He really surprised me as to his strength, and efficiency in the kill.  After that, I never worried about him encountering bob cats or coyotes, until he got old and wore his teeth off at the gums! 

I would like to know that Biscuit can handle himself, as well.  I worry that he will tangle with a pack of coyotes.


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 8, 2015)

I have 23 acres.  It is surrounded on two sides by hunting land, one side by a house on 26 acres (no animals.) and on the other side by a road.  Across the road is a two acre lot (house trailer and pit bulls) and the rest is more hunting land.  The only fenced area is the goat's enclosure which is about half an acre.  The chickens are free ranged on rotation and the goats are allowed to browse when I am working outside.  Should Biscuit be staying in the pen with the goats, or out with the chickens?  If I put him in there, he can't protect the birds as they roam far and wide but he can go all the way around the outside of the goat enclosure.  I think I will have to keep him in there during the day for hunting season to keep him safe from the hunters.  Will this upset him since he is used to having the whole place as his territory?  Is this more training I need to be doing?


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## Latestarter (Jun 8, 2015)

It's amazing how the Questions just keep coming, isn't it?   Always more to learn! Thankfully we have a willing/gracious (and very knowledgeable/experienced) person able to share their wisdom (in an understandable manner)!


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## bonbean01 (Jun 8, 2015)

Yes...the questions keep coming and Southern has so much going on in her own life, yet is gracious enough to take the time when she can   As for the holding her hard on the muzzle, I've done this all my pet pups when they would grab at me, bite, nip, etc....and just naturally did it with Keera too with a stern...NO BITE!!!  Even when it really wasn't a bite...both hands over the muzzle and hold it shut...by the third time, have never had a dog forget that and avoid it...end of mouthing me or nipping or trying to grab my clothing. 

Hope I'm right????  As for your other questions...I have no clue....have never considered getting a predator here to test or teach her....she is barking when anything comes near, and the sheep are paying attention to her...to me this is great!

As you teach Biscuit and work with him...you are going to find that he is more awesome than you ever imagined....trust me... I love my indoor pet dogs very much....but Keera...a whole new kind of bond and attachment   You love him now...you will love him more and more and more


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2015)

Wisher1000 said:


> I have been thinking that I could trap a coon so that I can watch his reaction to it and use it to teach him that coons are bad, and can be dangerous, but I am not sure how I would go about that lesson.


We have had to trap a possum or two that was by one of our chicken buildings under some pallets where there were no dogs. And yes we have allowed the dogs to see it but only for a brief period. Personally I don't want possums hanging out by my chickens but I am not one to put any animal under any undo stress either.I guess you could say I still have a strong belief in the balance of creatures in nature. We generally release the possums elsewhere on the property. Coons at least in our state cannot be released, if trapped then it must be destroyed no relocating. Rabies risk. Some dogs do not know exactly what to do at first (especially young LGD's as they are not prey driven like many other breed types) but they catch on as they mature because of the distress it causes to their charges. 



Wisher1000 said:


> Will this upset him since he is used to having the whole place as his territory?


Well it sounds as if he stays within his territory and is working out well for your purpose.
I think what is more important is deciding what you want him to do and where you want him. If he is going across the road to the neighbors than I'd say that is not a good thing. If he stays well put then great. Looking at where your greatest threats and issues are will help you decide where. 
I am a firm believer in introducing them to all the things that you may need to do in his future. So if that means you want to put him in with the goats at night then start training him to be within that area and stay with them at night... 
Have you tested him for gunshot noise? If not you will want to start exposing him before hunting season starts. Not a good way to find out if he is gun shy and him take off.
Many pups are tested for this when young... ours are... and they must pass a series of typical and non-typical noise tests. However even dogs that pass with flying colors can develop apprehension when older if not regularly exposed.
If you will need to lock him up during hunting season you don't want to wait to get him use to being kenneled or penned.

You mentioned shock... I am not a promoter of these methods it is actually in my pup contracts... no shock, no drags.
Never needed one. 

You do sound as if though you have a grasp on the use of the collar, especially using the vibrate mode. 
One reason I don't like them is because most do not know  how to use them, use them ineffectively, shock the mess out of the dog which is ridiculous, and these dogs are smart they know when that collar is on and when it is off.  Some simply could care less.

If the pits across the way are intact and they have females what will you do to prevent him from going over to see the females when they are in heat?

Just something to consider.


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 9, 2015)

So many decisions to be made, huh?  LOL!  I have never had to work this hard with a new dog before.  Okay, in reverse order...

I am pretty sure I am going to get him neutered this fall.  As much as I would love to raise some of these wonderful pups in the future, his bout with Demodex makes him a bad candidate for a sire.  I wouldn't want to produce pups that inherited that deficiency.

The collar is not my favorite tool, but I see it as an optional tool.  You are absolutely right.  Most people don't know how to use them, including my husband.  He is often saying "Where's the remote?  Biscuit is _______" when what is in the blank is nothing that would warrant a buzz, much less a shock.  He, like many others, think that it is a shortcut to force compliance when actually it is only a way to reinforce training.  It makes me angry  when people want a dog (horse, child...) to read their minds and punish them for doing something they haven't been trained not to do.  When I put the collar on him, I put the remote in my pocket and it stays there until I take the collar off.  No exceptions!

I know he has heard gunshot far off, but not up close.  I never thought of it since he is not a hunting dog, another shortfall on my part.  

How do you test your pups?  Now that he is established here, it would be more a matter of aclimating him than evaluating, right?  My thought would be to start with a small caliber and maybe 100 yards from the dog the first time.  Then move closer until the shots are fired with the dog at heel and start over with a larger caliber and repeat the process.

The cross-road pits really concern me.  First, I don't want him over there fighting.  Second, I don't want him over there making friends who may then come here to play.  I want Biscuit to run them off if they get loose and get a hankering for chicken.  It's happened before.  Ideally, Biscuit would ignore them as long as they stay on their side of the road......another training opportunity..........

Thanks again for all your time and patience.  You rock!


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2015)

As far as gunshot I would just ask your DH to go out on the property and shoot... shotgun. Drawing in closer and watch his reaction. 
It doesn't have to be right by him it is just to evaluate his response.
While farther out if DH likes to target shoot or skeet that would be good. You will be able to tell how he will react.

As far as neutering... ask your vet to do a vasectomy. 
The consequences of de-sexing are numerous.
Demodex does make him a bad candidate for sire. Demodex is Auto-immune related and the affects of actual de-sexing will only make the situation worse.

I am compiling info for others that have requested data concerning the negative affects of de-sexing. I have over 200 pages that I am condensing. I will be writing an article soon.

*Sounds like Biscuit is already a great dog and really not much work to him. It just goes back to you being the leader or alpha.*

The arrogance of these dogs is what I love about them most!
They think the world is all about them... our job is to remind them it's not. But there again they are not wired to recall first time not do 10 minute -30 down/stays.... that is what pets are for. 

Give me a stubborn, hard headed, acts like he's deaf (selective hearing) LGD anyday.... nothing like them.


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## Baymule (Jun 9, 2015)

I just have to chime in and say thanks to Southern for sharing her wisdom with us. I am a better LGD owner for being a member of BYH and studying the posts here. I have a six month old Pyr/Maremma boy that is such a trip, that I named him Trip. It is very different raising him compared to other dogs. My other Pyr was a messed up chicken killer that took 2 years to correct. It is way different starting a puppy and I read everything posted here. 

I wish you the best with your puppy. It is hard to look at a 70 pound dog and think "baby" LOL! You sound like a good LGD Mommy!


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 9, 2015)

Thank you for the well wishes, Baymule.  

I am having no trouble looking at Biscuit and thinking "baby."  He really can be a sweety pie.  As a matter of fact, I think that is why I have spoiled him a bit, because I have loved on him too much!  

What I really want to do is roll around on the grass with him, but I know that would not be good for his attitude, so I will resist.  It is hard to practice "no touch, no talk, no eye contact" with him when I can barely keep my hands off of him!  

I will keep up the leash training and let y'all know how it goes...


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2015)

Curious as to why you would ...


Wisher1000 said:


> "no touch, no talk, no eye contact"


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 10, 2015)

If the dog initiates contact, then ends it when he wants, he is acting as the alpha.  I am not saying I do this all the time, just when I am approached, and the dog wants to play.  I want to be the one to call him over, and reward the compliance with attention.  I have found that when I "ignore" a dog, he works harder to fall in line and work to earn my attention.  He also appreciates it more when I give it.  When the human loves on him all the time and submits to giving affection on demand (the dog's) the balance of power goes to the dog.  My goal is to be the one to initiate contact, and end it.    
This has worked well with all my other dogs.....  

That little house dog technically belongs to my son, my husband loves that dog like one of his kids, and she ADORES me.  It's because I don't make a fuss over her when I come home, I don't play with her constantly, and I make her do things like wait on me to go through a door, sit quietly while I eat (no begging and I don't share my food with her until I'm finished) I make her get in her bed when we have company, and every now and then, when I'm watching TV, I will invite her to lay next to me on the couch and I will rub her ears.  She eats it up.  She likes everyone in the house, but if I am home, she is my shadow.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 10, 2015)

I see.. I thought you were doing the complete poorly taught_ don't look, touch, or talk to your LGD _approach.

That one there is the root of almost every trouble call I get. 

I agree, do not reward a "needy dog" and everything should be on your terms. 

You should see compliance within a few days of lead work... it also gives the dog positive way to interact with you.


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## mikiz (Jun 10, 2015)

+1 My other half's dogs (sausages) have been treated like royalty, you should have seen the tantrums they threw at the start when I refused to interact with them! I absolutely despise needy dogs, I want to pat them when I say so, not because they rub up against my foot or nose under my hand and demand it.
Now if I say "get away from me" they do exactly that.

So good to hear Biscuit is in your capable, willing-to-learn hands, I hope he continues to improve , I'm sure he will be a wonderful LGD


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## Wisher1000 (Jun 11, 2015)

<chuckle>

My command for "get away from me" is one syllable - "Gwoan" (Go on!)


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## Baymule (Jun 11, 2015)

And there is that deep gutteral AAHHNH! Strikes terror in kids and dogs. LOL


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## bonbean01 (Jun 11, 2015)

Looking forward to how it goes for you and Biscuit with the lead work Southern suggested....truly could not believe how quickly this made a huge difference with Keera!!!!  And what a treat to have a huge dog act so beautifully on a lead when you need to use a leash...and for real....thought I couldn't bond with this baby (yes...she is still my big baby too)....but the lead work....yeah...we're glued now 

These are awesome dogs...yes?????


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## Poka_Doodle (Jun 26, 2015)

I hope all goes well with all. I came from BYC because this place sounded cool.


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## Wisher1000 (Jul 1, 2015)

I took off work last Thursday and Friday.  Thursday, I brushed and bathed my old dog, Docker.  He always loved his baths, like no dog I've ever seen.  He realized that even though he got wet, he also got scratched all over.  He thoroughly enjoyed the grooming and I stretched it out to over an hour.  He rubbed his head in the warm grass and laid in the sun to dry.  Then, we went for a slow ride in the Ranger (four wheel ATV.)  Once he was completely dry, I let him inside the house.  I have let him in many times over the last 15 years, but he never really felt comfortable there.  He paced a bit, and had a hard time walking on the hardwood floors.  I called him to the area rug in the kitchen and we had a gourmet dog meal.  I gave him Spam, Vienna Sausages, cheese, and some leftover ground beef.  He was fine as long as he was eating like that, but as soon as it was gone he paced some more and was ready to go back out.  I opened the door and he walked out, felt the heat, and turned around and pushed past me back inside.  I put a blanket on the floor but he opted to lay on the hardwood.  I let him stay all afternoon, with an occasional walk outside to keep the floors dry.  Between the slick floor and his lack of muscle tone, I would have to help him get to his feet.  Friday morning, I called the vet but couldn't get an appointment for him until 3:30.  We spent the day together again, except for the time I spent digging a hole down by the creek.  At 3:00, I backed the truck up to a hill and let the tailgate down so he could load up.  He was happy to get in, and liked the old sheet that I put on the bed liner so it wouldn't be hot.  The only thing he liked better than a bath, was a ride in the back of the truck.  I rode back there with him and my son drove.  I had to support him because his old legs couldn't keep him balanced with the turns, starts, and stops of the trip, but he kept his nose to the wind and his ears (and his tongue) flapped in the wind.  People in cars, and especially truck drivers, would smile and wave at me and my old dog in the back of the truck.  I don't know if they could see the occasional tear that slid down my cheek, but their smiles were oddly comforting.  The doc came out to the truck and said that he looked good,  I think he was surprised that Docker was not in bad shape.  He was fully fleshed, maybe even borderline fat.  His coat was thick and shiny, but his teeth were all but gone.  He had worn the canines off to less than a half inch long and all the others were worn off even with his gums.  He couldn't hear, and had developed a chronic cough from his enlarged heart.  He struggled to lay down, and struggled even harder to get up.  Lately, he had been staggering and sometimes he would stumble and fall. He panted constantly.  About a week ago, he stopped wagging his tail when he greeted me.  He would just come to me with a look that asked me to help.  It was time.  The vet gave him some anesthetic and he went to sleep.  He then administered that pink liquid that stopped his heart.  We buried him down by the creek where he loved to cool off in the water in the summers.  I'll miss that old chicken killing dog. It is obvious that Biscuit misses him, too.


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## Latestarter (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm so sorry Wisher  I'm sure he's in a better place now and more comfortable. It'll be hard for you and Biscuit for a while. But then there'll be a time when something will happen that will remind you of him, and it'll bring a smile instead of tears. Really tough to have to let them go.


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## mikiz (Jul 1, 2015)

Oh Wisher that's such a touching sad story, I'm sure he had the best time of his life in those last couple of days and he would thank you for it. I'm so sorry


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## Shorty (Jul 1, 2015)

Wisher I am sorry for your loss. It sounds like you made his last days wonderful. Again I am sorry


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## Poka_Doodle (Jul 1, 2015)

Wow, I felt a tear run down my eye, that is so heart touching.


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## Mike CHS (Jul 2, 2015)

Every time I have had to put a pet down I swear there won't be another one but they give too much of themselves to keep those thoughts very long.

Your thoughts of his last days was very touching.


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## Hens and Roos (Jul 2, 2015)

so sorry about your loss, it is never easy


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## babsbag (Jul 2, 2015)

What a wonderful way to end a good life and I am sure your old boy appreciated it all. It is hard to let them go but sometimes it is just what we have to do. Facing it with a kitty right now and I told my husband that when her purr stops it is time; just like you and Docker's tail; they give us signs.


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## Bunnylady (Jul 2, 2015)

Oh, Wisher. 15 years is a loong life for a large breed, you obviously took really good care of Docker. What a thoughtful way to help him out of a life that was becoming a burden to him.

I couldn't help but think about the gentle irony of your son doing the driving. He and Docker were pretty much babies together, weren't they? And now here he is, on the verge of adulthood, helping to shoulder a part of the adult-sized responsibility of helping the old dog to cross the rainbow bridge.


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## bonbean01 (Jul 2, 2015)

So sorry


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## Baymule (Jul 2, 2015)

It's not just a dog dying. It's a family member. It's years of family history. It's seeing in your minds eye, all the memories. It's losing your friend.

I am so sorry in the loss of your friend, your family member who wore a dog suit. Big hugs.


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## Wisher1000 (Jul 12, 2015)

Update:

The Biscuit took the loss of our old man very hard.  He visits the grave every day and is off his feed.  He is no longer chasing the chickens, I think he hasn't the heart.  When I am outside, he is my shadow (he never did that before.)  Worst of all, his Demodex is back.  I have started him back on his ivermectin.  Bless him, he loved that old dog more than I knew.  I have a few feelers out for a LGD buddy for him.  He loves for me to bring the housedog into the yard and he plays and plays with her.  He hates it when she goes back in and likes to come inside and lay on the floor next to her crate.  I haven't done that much, because in the midst of all this, he is more and more protective of the place.  I can't say he is bonded with the goats, but he likes them.  He will occasionally rub his body along theirs, if they will let him.  Mostly, though, they rear up like they want to butt, but never do.  He just stands there wagging his tail and waits for them to stop before trying to approach them again.  He also charges the woods on a regular basis and "marks his territory" around the coops and field. I hope he snaps out of his gloom soon.  He has lost some weight and I really wanted some more on him, already.  He also started limping on a front leg, but there was no obvious injury and no tenderness when I felt all over from shoulder to pad.  Poor baby, he is going through a rough patch.  He is more and more bonded to me and actually seems to want to please me now.  That may not be a good thing...........


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## Blue Sky (Jul 15, 2015)

Sorry you lost your old timer. I've been there and will be again soon as my eldest LGD is on borrowed time at age 13. They leave a gap with us and with their own compadres as well as the stock. But I find that I wouldn't live any other way.


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## Wisher1000 (Jul 21, 2015)

The Biscuit continues to have a hard time. 

Last night just before dark, he came running out of the woods, and began crying as he got to the house.  He was holding up his right front leg and in such pain that he actually nipped at me when I tried to palpate it.  I soon located a small spot of blood on the side of his paw and realized he had been snake bit. 

I gave him 75mg of Benadryl and brought him in the house.  I watched the swelling all night and took him to the vet first thing this morning.  He weighed him (92lbs!) gave him a huge antibiotic shot and more antibiotics in pill form, as well as some pain/anti-inflammatories.  We brought him home and bathed him and brushed him out. 

He will stay in the house as long as needed, and is spoiled already.  The only thing that worries me is that the site is turning black and I am watching it closely for gross necrosis.

Bless him......


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## Baymule (Jul 21, 2015)

Hope he is OK. Poor thing. Keep us posted on how he's doing.


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## Bunnylady (Jul 21, 2015)

Eeks, poor guy. 

We had a cat that got snake bit a few years ago. She'd been missing for 3 days when I found her, head grossly swollen and with a mark over her right eye and another just in front of her right ear. She recovered, with just a slight squint in that eye as a reminder of the encounter.

Hope the Biscuit recovers quickly.


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## Wisher1000 (Jul 22, 2015)

The vet said to keep him in for 4 or 5 days, but I think he will be able to go out sooner.  I had to drop the dog and DS#3 off (I had a meeting) and communication through a 14 year old was spotty.  I spoke briefly with the doc as I was leaving and he had already said to keep The Biscuit in, but was surprised when I said the swelling had already gone down a bit. That leg is now only slightly bigger than the other, but still obviously swollen.  He is putting full weight on it and feeling fine.


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## Latestarter (Jul 22, 2015)

Poor fella... amazing though that a dog or cat can survive a snake bite when a human needs all kinds of medical intervention. Hope he's back to 100% quick.


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## Wisher1000 (Jul 24, 2015)

Update - The Biscuit is back outside.  I took him with me to do chores this morning, and he took off into the woods after something.  He was back before I went back to the house but didn't care that the housedog was going back in, he wanted to stay outside.  His paws were muddy and he wasn't limping on his leg so I let him stay out.  Tomorrow would be day four.  I will just keep him on his antibiotics, and watch the site for problems, but he's definitely back to his old self.


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## Hens and Roos (Jul 24, 2015)

Wisher1000 said:


> Update - The Biscuit is back outside.  I took him with me to do chores this morning, and he took off into the woods after something.  He was back before I went back to the house but didn't care that the housedog was going back in, he wanted to stay outside.  His paws were muddy and he wasn't limping on his leg so I let him stay out.  Tomorrow would be day four.  I will just keep him on his antibiotics, and watch the site for problems, but he's definitely back to his old self.



Glad to hear he is doing better!


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## Baymule (Jul 25, 2015)

Nothing like a muddy happy dog to let you know things are right in the world.


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 16, 2015)

I saw a Facebook post for an Anatolian/Akbash/Pyrenees for sale.  I contacted the lady and as we talked I eventually came to realize that it is one of my LGD's brothers.  Long story short, I have a new LGD!!  His name was Bubby, but we will call him Buddy.  He is a full brother to The Biscuit but is 6 months older.  

I am so excited, but could use some guidance.  I have never acquired an adult dog unless it stayed inside, or just showed up and stayed.  I am so afraid he will leave if I don't keep him penned.  How long before I don't have to worry about that?  Right now, I have him in a dog pen that I am not sure will hold him.  So far, so good... but he's only just arrived this afternoon.  I introduced him to my LGD, the house dog, the goats, and the property and there were no problems. 

Any other suggestions?


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 16, 2015)

Here he is (I have no idea why it is on it's side, tilt your head!)


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 16, 2015)

Here are my two boys, getting to know each other.  Biscuit is right at a year and has not been neutered (yet) and the new one, Buddy, is 18 months and was neutered at five months.


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## Latestarter (Aug 16, 2015)

Ummm confused... how can they be full brothers and be separated by 6 months in age? (were the parents a "puppy mill" set-up?) <scratching head here>   Regardless, he's a good looking boy. You can def see the Anatolian in him.  Congrats on acquiring him!  nice find! I'm sure Biscuit must be pretty happy to have another potential playmate. No idea on your other Q's and haven't seen/heard a peep from @Southern by choice in ages (Hope she's OK)


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## mikiz (Aug 17, 2015)

I was wondering the same thing @Latestarter decided whats done is done and he wasn't gotten from the breeder directly so there's not much to be done about it now
He does look lovely but I would be concerned about his breeders


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## Baymule (Aug 17, 2015)

I am glad the introductions went well. Congrats on a great find!


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## Bunnylady (Aug 17, 2015)

Wow! I guess you know why the dam was in such rough shape when you got The Biscuit!

Congrats on your new dog! Hopefully the two of them will become real "partners in crime (prevention)" and Buddy settles in quickly. (Oh, help. "Buddy and The Biz: Canine Crimefighters" - it sounds like an animated movie) This does sound like it could be exactly the solution you needed.


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## babsbag (Aug 17, 2015)

My female doesn't even come back into heat quick enough to have liters that close. My one "oops" and a back to back breeding the puppies were 9 months apart.

Good looking boys.


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 17, 2015)

Yea, they pretty much let the dogs breed at will.  I know that the litter before Bubby's all died.  I learned that they have since gotten rid of those two and gotten a pair of GP.  I guess I wouldn't call them a puppy mill, since they only have the one pair, but their husbandry practices leave much to be desired.  Anyway, Bubby had a good home from weaning to now and is happy here with us so far.  I am proud to have him and he should be a good influence on his little brother.  I have come to the conclusion that I raised an obnoxious dog, though.  He runs up behind Bubby and grabs his tail, just to get him to chase.  Bubby finally sat down on it to get a rest and The Biscuit slipped up behind Bubby and used just his front teeth to grab a mouthful of back hair and pulled.  Jerk.


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## Baymule (Aug 17, 2015)

Haha on the tail pulling.  Our goofy black Lab/Great Dane pulls the tails of our two GP's. They play hard!


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## mikiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Ooh cheeky boy! Not LGDs but my little Chihuahua smacks our older Dachshund in the face with her butt and sits on his head or grabs his neck-fur to get him to play, she's SO rough!


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## Latestarter (Aug 18, 2015)

Sorry, by my way of thinking, folks like that breeder shouldn't be allowed to own animals.  pretty irresponsible... 

My daughter brings over her mini shepard and he goes at it hard and heavy with my toli... My toli can place his mouth over the mini's entire body (and does!) but the mini just keeps coming back for more! He likes to get underneath my toli and bite at his neck & lips My toli weighs in right now at ~110lbs (7.5 mos old). The mini is maybe 35-40lbs, 2 yrs old! They are funny to watch together and it rarely gets "serious". Just all in good fun.


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## Poka_Doodle (Aug 18, 2015)

That will be great for Biscut and you


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 18, 2015)

Here is a video I made for the previous owner to show her where he is living and how he is getting along.  Check it out!  Warning: It's over 18 minutes long....


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 24, 2015)

Well, I guess I spoke too soon.  The boys are not getting along nearly as well now as they were in that video.  They have had a few squabbles and are now quite cool to each other.  I hate it, I was really hoping they would be best buds.  I know they are working out who is the boss, but will they be friends again once that has been established?  I am just afraid that they will not be relaxed around each other all the time from now own.  Anyone have any experience with bringing an adult male into another's territory?


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## Bunnylady (Aug 24, 2015)

I don't know how much to make of this, but I re-watched the video, and I noticed something. It seemed to me that while Buddy does initiate some of the playing, an awful lot of the "aggression" is The Biscuit. Buddy does a lot of "defensive" moves; sometimes, he seems to be saying, "OK, enough, I'm done," and Biscuit doesn't seem to hear it until he says it several times. You've observed that The Biscuit is a bit obnoxious, maybe he hasn't really learned to respect another dog's personal space, and when enough is enough.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 24, 2015)

I think you need to get some professional help and advice on this.  Southern is your best bet since she has bred and trained Pyr/Toli crosses. 

Biscuit is a year old - still a puppy.  Buddy is 18 months old - still young.  This may be why they haven't gotten into a major fight yet.  We brought an 18 month old Anatolian bitch from Erick Conard onto our property with 2 older Weimaraners.  She got along well at first then when she came into season (right after we got her home and before I could get her in to the vet to be spayed) the 8 year old Weimaraner bitch took exception to being shouldered out of the way and growled at her.  The Anatolian went after her.  She had been trained to respond to the command "back off" which Erick teaches all his dogs.  She obeyed that command, released Didi, and Didi, terrified and with a large bloody gash ran for the house.  After that we had to keep them separate.  Rika tore Didi up a lot, and when she didn't tear her open, Didi had large hematomas from the pressure of Rika's jaws.  After Rika was spayed, we had to watch them closely.  Don't think that Didi initiated this either, Didi is shy and an omega bitch which is why I had her spayed.  She would run from Rika and Rika would chase her down.  Erik told us that Anatolians do it to teach "manners" to dogs that run away.  Once Didi would freeze in place and stand, Rika stopped biting her. Now 18 months later, and with the male Weimie gone, there is a guarded truce.  Every so often Rika will jump Didi without warning - draws no blood - but just to enforce her authority.  When Rika comes for her nightly visit Didi runs into the bedroom and takes refuge on the bed.  Oddly the mini dachshund can attack the Anatolian and only gets a puzzled stare.

Now about your boys, hopefully they are both neutered now.  If not, do it asap. If Biscuit continues to act aggressively toward Buddy, eventually there will be a big fight.  DON''T TRY TO STOP IT SINCE YOU WILL GET HURT.  Neither dog has been trained to the "back off" command or anything similar.  Luckily, those big LGDs can take lots of punishment but will probably require stitching up by the vet and may not get along afterward.  Worst case will a fight to kill.  Since Biscuit wasn't trained to respect anyone early (per your first posting) you will have to start training them both with more emphasis on Biscuit who sees himself (correctly) as the dominant dog.  It was his property first, and because he is still a pup he accepted the other dog onto it, but as he ages things will change. 

In another year or so they will be mature dogs.  When we got our 18 month old Anatolian she was technically still a puppy.  We were worried about bringing her onto the property with our other dogs.  Lots of people keep multiple Tolis of both sexes together.  After talking to Erick and hearing from other owners, our next LGD will be a male Anatolian.  I have been told that Anatolians will accept the opposite sexes easier than the same sex.  Our Pyrs didn't seem to have that antagonism toward others of the same sex.  Since yours are a mix of Anatolian, Pyr and Akbash it is hard to say which is dominant in each dog.  Buddy has the black mask of an Anatolian but may not have the Anatolian dominance that Biscuit is showing. 

It might have been better to wait for the second LGD until you had Biscuit properly trained.  You might be facing rehoming one of them if their antagonism can't be controlled.


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 24, 2015)

Thank you both for your advice and observations.


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## Bunnylady (Aug 24, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> Since Biscuit wasn't trained to respect anyone early (per your first posting) you will have to start training them both with more emphasis on* Biscuit who sees himself (correctly) as the* *dominant dog.*  It was his property first, and because he is still a pup he accepted the other dog onto it, but as he ages things will change.



It makes sense that, as the resident canine, Biscuit should be the dominant one - but mounting behavior can be a dominance display. Did you notice who was doing the mounting when they were playing? (answer - Buddy)


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## Wisher1000 (Aug 24, 2015)

When I got home from work today, I noticed that Bubby had nappy spots all over his back and head.  It looked like he had be slobbered on or mouthed and it had dried.  I was concerned that there had been a fight during the day and gave him a quick once over for injuries.  I didn't find any, but as I was looking him over The Biscuit came running and greeted me then licked Bubby on the side of his muzzle.  He had the same dried slobber patches all over him.  Later, as we started out to the breeder barn, they were running together and playing like old friends again.  I guess I will just have to wait and see what happens.......


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## Wisher1000 (Feb 26, 2016)

Sorry, everybody, I just sort of left you all hanging.  Latestarter scolded me and I'm back, humbly, to update you all on my LGDs, Biscuit and Bubby (the name -Bubby- stuck.)

These two are getting along famously.  They play together, patrol together, and sleep together.  The only real complaint I have is that they roam together.  Luckily, all my neighbors like them and have not complained about their visits.  Some neighbors even feed them.   

We did have a complaint from the hunting club (adjacent to our property) president and I started keeping them on chains during the day (letting them off at dark) during hunting season, for fear they would get shot.  I am in the process of laying an "invisible fence" around about five acres to keep them home.  I hope it works, I don't want to lose my dogs. *Do y'all think five acres will be enough?* 

They are worth their weights in gold, as far as I am concerned.  I have had no losses to predators since getting Biscuit, and getting Bubby just about stopped Biscuit from "playing" with the chickens - just about.  He has not killed any, but I did catch him chasing a rooster around a bush a day or two ago.  The rooster would duck around the shrub one way and then the other and the dog would bounce on his front legs back and forth on the other side.  I think I caught him in the act fairly soon after the game started, and scolded him severely.  He looked at me like, "Ma aa?  What did *I* do?" 

They have totally opposite personalities.  Biscuit is calm, quiet, sweet, and friendly to everyone.  He is ever so gentle with the grand kids and approaches everyone he meets as if they were his ruler and he the humble servant.  Bubby, on the other hand, thinks he is the boss, and expects to get anything he wants.  He will jump on you, bowl you over to get into the house when the door is opened, and will use his paw to knock a bucket or sack out of your hand to see what's in it.  I have worked hard to gain some control over him and it works, most of the time, *for ME*, but he drives the rest of the family nuts.  I have started teaching them (the family) how to keep him in line and it is getting better.  He is just so BULL HEADED!  I gotta' love him.  He is also suspicious and somewhat aggressive toward people he doesn't know.  He barks, walks stiff legged, and raises his hackles when a strange car pulls up, but settles down once one of us are outside and he decides we are okay with the visitor.  I couldn't ask for a better watch dog.  A neighbor kid told my son that our dogs killed a 40lb coon in their backyard one night, and that his Dad was real impressed.  I asked if his family was okay with it, he said yes, those are tough dogs.  Evidently, when on the roam, they tolerate other dogs, and are friendly toward people, but not predators.  Cool.

So, all in all, a happy tale of two LGDs that turned out well in spite of a couple of inexperienced owners!


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