# Definitely getting an LGD now...



## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

Well, we just got hit again...Hard 
So tired of dealing with the packs of stray dogs and the occasional coyote or fox that comes in and takes out our animals, so I finally got DH on board to get an LGD.
I have a lot of dog training experience, but it's mostly limited to obedience training rather than LGD training. Any and all information would be appreciated. @Southern by choice 
In our area, there are a few options - there is one place that's a really long drive, but they have 1.5 year old Anatolian Shepherds experienced with goats and poultry or 14 week old puppies available.
Another option is Great Pyrs that are a bit closer, 20 week old puppies. There are Kuvasz in the area, but they are more show lines, so not really considering them.

We have 2 1/2 unfenced acres. We have fenced portions for our chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, goats, and hutches for the rabbits. We need something that will protect all of them and will stay on the property as best as possible and can dissuade larger packs of dogs. This morning there were 4 of them. 
What say you all?


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 12, 2015)

So sorry to hear this,  don't have any experience with LGD but thinking other will be able to help you!


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## brogan007 (Jan 12, 2015)

If you can see the stray dogs...can you not knock some over with a rifle?  Get a head start, help out your LGD and just even up the playing field for your animals. Damn these stray dogs.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 12, 2015)

Just my suggestion ... but a perimeter fence and then  LGD!  Without a fence my guess is that an LGD will try to claim a larger territory than 2.5 acres.  I know mine thinks her 4 acres aren't enough!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 12, 2015)

What do you mean by fenced portions?

Do not waste your time or money on a LGD until the property is properly fenced.  Having adequate fencing alone may solve the issue.
You are on a small property and the dogs are not going to just stay there. In a LGD's mind their property extends to as far as they can see. 
Being honest here SA- NO breeder should sell a LGD to anyone without proper fencing and if one tells you they will stay with the animals or that an invisible fence is ok... RUN the other way.


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

I didn't see them - DH did, but he had to get to work. They usually run off before we'd have a chance to grab a gun, but we can and will shoot them if the opportunity presents itself.
DH is going to load a shotgun with rock salt and keep it by the front door, so that'll help in the meantime.

These bleeping dogs tore through wood and wire to get at my rabbits and chickens. The birds are locked up at night and the rabbits are in raised wood/wire hutches, but that didn't stop these blood-thirsty bleepers 

The reason we were holding off getting one is that we wanted to have the entire perimeter fence up first.
We have large fenced portions for the turkeys and runs for the chickens.
The whole place isn't fenced off, but enough is that the LGD would have about an acre to patrol. We just wanted all of it done...


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## Southern by choice (Jan 12, 2015)

So all of the areas are within the 1 acre fenced?


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> So all of the areas are within the 1 acre fenced?


Yes.


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

Figured I could leave the gates open to all the fenced off portions at night for the LGD to patrol, then close them for the day when the birds are out... Once the fences are fixed and bolstered a little anyway!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 12, 2015)

It might work... kinda small and sounds like the area is a bit "cut up".
By that I mean small areas that are connected are much more difficult to work with and harder on the dog making it more difficult for them to do their job. LGD's don't need obstacle courses. 
I don't mean that in a negative way, just trying to give a bigger picture... I did a consult for a family wanting to get a LGD... went out saw their fencing... lots of "lots" these lots were all connect by 4 ft gates  in different areas. The dog would have to go in almost a zig zag manor (kind of like a McMasteres slide up right downright up right down right ... you get the picture...through 4 gates to get from the front to the back of the property. For the predator on the other side it is a straight line.
Not sure how your place is set up but something to consider.

An adult would be better however you will need to make sure the LGD is accustomed to the different kind of animals you have or you will need to intro them. Also a LGD that has been on a good deal of land has a much harder time trying to assimilate to a small yard. 
There is a possibility the dog may not have enough room and that leads to digging, climbing etc.  

LGD's can be trained to poultry, rabbits are a little harder as that is something they typically would kill and eat in the field.


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

It kind of looks like this. The black sections are the permanent pens, and not completely inaccessible. Just have to extend a few sections of fencing so that the rabbits and one other pen are included, but this is the main acre. The 10x10 kennels for the goats are outside of this as well, but within sight. They get locked up within this sectioning at night.



 
Loose rabbits would be fair game - as long as the ones in the cages are off-limits. My ACD won't touch my caged rabbits, but he'll hunt the wild ones and has been known to have at an escapee. To me that's fair. But he's getting too old to be out in all weather and he's attached to my hip.

I would probably do basic obedience with the LGD and wouldn't even mind having him/her in the house occasionally during the day, but would have to have him/her out at night. I don't have a problem giving a job or providing activity/exercise to prevent the digging or other behavior problems. Training to keep off the fence will be a challenge. I've done livestock intro with other dogs/puppies, so that's not a problem.
I am leaning more towards a puppy. Especially with the idea that down-sizing would be difficult to adjust to for an adult.


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

The red is what will need to be extended to. The purple is what I wanted to have done before getting an LGD and just removing the dark grey sections of fencing. The extra squares are the goat fences we're planning.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 12, 2015)

I would focus on the "purple" plan. This gives the LGD area to work, with perimeter control and access everywhere he/she will need to go.

As far as the age, the pup will take time to mature and be ready for true guarding duty. I am working on a page about properly acclimating LGD's to a family environment.
We do train for house etc but truthfully more people do not do this properly than those that do. It is very much about routine, and the dog growing up in it's field.

More on that later.


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

Alright. We can at least get started on that this year. Thanks! 
I'm thinking we will get something this year, just not sure exactly what or when. DH came home and we collected the losses and walked the fencing and talked about what will need to be done and what can be done this year. 
We're going to look into getting a few rolls of the non climb horse fence and at least get started on the purple plan. If we get enough done, a puppy can start in the temporary plan and work his/her way out while bonding with the animals and learning the routine and I can walk the perimeter with him/her morning and evening as well.
The other option is to bolster our existing fencing with something like heavy wooden pallets and get another ACD or the like to stay out at night with my existing heeler.
We'll see what we can afford and what will work best for our set up and situation.
Again thanks for all the input and taking the time to respond. I think DH and I are over our knee-jerk reaction and thinking a little more clearly now as well


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 12, 2015)

stay strong!!


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## Baymule (Jan 12, 2015)

How much is the non climb horse wire in your area? We are moving to 8 acres and have to fence it. Where we live now, at Tractor Supply, a 200 foot roll, 4 feet tall, is $229.99

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/non-climb-horse-fence-48-in-x-200-ft

In Tyler, Texas, close to where we are moving, the same roll of wire is $219.99 and surrounding towns are the same price as our local store. Go figure.

Local 7' T-post is $4.99, in Tyler same post is $4.69

Home Depot, McCoys and Lowes are all much higher. Shop and then shop the store you choose in neighboring towns.


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## secuono (Jan 12, 2015)

It will be YEARS before the puppy will be any good at protecting anything. And it will be a lot of the puppy doing the killing himself by accident as well. 
With PACKS of dogs, more than one LGD will be needed or they might gang up on the LGD and seriously injure or kill him. 
1 acre is tiny! It will work while he grows up, but he will need more land the older he gets. 
I have 5 acres and a lot of animals for her, so she stays, but if I didn't have much for her to do, sniff, explore, check on, etc, she'd be gone! Plus, we have hot wire that she's met as a tiny pup and as an older pup, so she doesn't try it. You'll need your dog to get seriously knocked back by good hot wire to keep him in. Never jump fencing or gates, they watch and learn! Think "monkey see, monkey do!"
What kind of fencing is it that stray dogs can rip apart?? 
If you use 4-6in wood posts 5ft tall, woven 5ft fencing (NOT welded), then they shouldn't be able to just tear through it. Toss on some 2+ joule electric strands at the bottom, middle and top, and most animals will not try to go through!


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## SA Farm (Jan 12, 2015)

Baymule said:


> How much is the non climb horse wire in your area? We are moving to 8 acres and have to fence it. Where we live now, at Tractor Supply, a 200 foot roll, 4 feet tall, is $229.99
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/non-climb-horse-fence-48-in-x-200-ft
> 
> ...


It's more expensive here. Even at the TS store it's more like $220 for a 100 ft roll and more like $12 each for t-posts 



secuono said:


> It will be YEARS before the puppy will be any good at protecting anything. And it will be a lot of the puppy doing the killing himself by accident as well.
> With PACKS of dogs, more than one LGD will be needed or they might gang up on the LGD and seriously injure or kill him.
> 1 acre is tiny! It will work while he grows up, but he will need more land the older he gets.
> I have 5 acres and a lot of animals for her, so she stays, but if I didn't have much for her to do, sniff, explore, check on, etc, she'd be gone! Plus, we have hot wire that she's met as a tiny pup and as an older pup, so she doesn't try it. You'll need your dog to get seriously knocked back by good hot wire to keep him in. Never jump fencing or gates, they watch and learn! Think "monkey see, monkey do!"
> ...



They didn't go through the fencing to the rabbit hutches, they shredded the hardware cloth. To get to the chickens they tore through the wooden door on the coop and either went over or under the main fence - couldn't find any gaps or holes, but they managed somehow! The rabbit hutches aren't inside the fence and we've never ever had a problem with the hutches 

There are acres of field and forest behind us that I can take the dog to entertain him/her during the day for walks and whatnot. It's not the daytime that's the problem, it's overnight - usually after dark and around dawn before we're up.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2015)

secuono said:


> It will be YEARS before the puppy will be any good at protecting anything. And it will be a lot of the puppy doing the killing himself by accident as well.
> With PACKS of dogs, more than one LGD will be needed or they might gang up on the LGD and seriously injure or kill him.
> 1 acre is tiny! It will work while he grows up, but he will need more land the older he gets.
> I have 5 acres and a lot of animals for her, so she stays, but if I didn't have much for her to do, sniff, explore, check on, etc, she'd be gone! Plus, we have hot wire that she's met as a tiny pup and as an older pup, so she doesn't try it. You'll need your dog to get seriously knocked back by good hot wire to keep him in. Never jump fencing or gates, they watch and learn! Think "monkey see, monkey do!"
> ...



Definitely agree with the fencing!

The LGD's and working well I think much depends on the dog a person gets.  the breeding behind the dog,  and how the human works with the dog.

All of my dogs are fully working before 1 year of age and go through kidddings with zero problems. I currently have  4 pyr pups fully guarding no chasing livestock, with kids and they are just shy of 9 months. Our Anatolian pup is now 9 months and has been full time for months. 

I agree on boredom... dogs must have a job to do!


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## treeclimber233 (Jan 26, 2015)

I am not sure it would be a good idea to take your dog to areas outside your fence to entertain her. It may give her the impression she should be guarding that area as well. If she sees another dog while outside her territory she may not come back if you call her. Guardian dogs have a completely different mindset than other dogs. I may be wrong in my thinking so any comments from experts are welcome.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Jan 26, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Definitely agree with the fencing!
> 
> The LGD's and working well I think much depends on the dog a person gets.  the breeding behind the dog,  and how the human works with the dog.
> 
> ...



X2
Our Anatolian is now just over a year old, and he's been in with our goats full-time since we got him from the breeder. He's always been in with a fully-trained adult LGD, which probably helped, but he's definitely had the instinct from the get-go.  He's never hurt a goat, he did great with kidding, and he was only about 7 months old at the time.  That said, we had to do some pretty heavy training between about 6-10 months to get him to behave with poultry.  He's great around the birds now - they can free range right next to him, but he does kill wild rabbits in the field _a lot_, so, as was mentioned earlier, you'll definitely want to be aware and have a game plan for that.

I think you can do it with training and patience. LGDs are smart and intuitive in many ways, and if they see repeatedly/consistently that something is important to you, they will usually help you take care of it, or indirectly protect it by keeping the predators away from the area in general and just leaving it alone. Case in point, we have a house bunny, that the LGDs occasionally watch through the windows when they sit out on the back porch.  They've never tried to go after him.  It might be because of the glass, but they've never even barked or growled at him.  I like to think they understand that he belongs (although I've never done a hard core test of that theory-love my bun too much to risk it ). 

Anyway, best of luck.  I absolutely recommend LGDs.  The coyotes have been awful here this year, and our neighbors without LGDs are losing livestock like crazy.  *Knock on wood* - we haven't lost a single goat or poultry to coyotes in all the time we've had LGDs, even though I see/hear them around here frequently.  I actually consider our LGDs the most valuable animals on my farm, because all the other animals are safe because of them.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 26, 2015)

HoneyDreameMomma said:


> X2
> ...... I actually consider our LGDs the most valuable animals on my farm, because all the other animals are safe because of them.



Agreed!


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## Robbin (Feb 3, 2015)

I've had a lot of trouble with Toli and Chickens.  Never in my presence.  He’ll walk right by 5 feet away and ignore them.  Not so when I’m not there.  So he knows better, he just chooses to chase them when he thinks I'm not around.  Didn't have chickens to raise him with when he was a puppy, and I think that is critical.  Toli is about 2 years old now.  The best dog I've ever had and he's a handsome brute, about 130 with a head like a Rottweiler.
Truly awesome dogs, I’m glad I live where I can own one.


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