# Weaning/bottle calf ?



## Mike Fronczak

We had one of our three calfs that for whatever reason has given us all sorts of issues.  We didn't see the birth so I don't know if there were issues there or what, but we have almost lost him twice due to Moms neglect (left him in pasture & he got dehydrated to a point he couldn't move). Had to tube feed him electolytes, etc.  We do bring him out in the pasture to socialize for a couple hours, does well with it, mom is attentive as well.  He is also doing Very well on the halter.  Anyway he is almost a month old now doing very well or was, eating about 8-10 quarts a day between the 2 feedings.  We had been using Dumor milk replacer his stool was almost formed unine was fine, my wife switched brands (was at a different store), to another milk replacer (& bought a 50 lb bag of it, to the tune of about $ 75) now he has diarea black & green.  I'm nervous he will get dehydrated again.  I have a bucket of water in the stall with him at all times & it apears he drinks a little, had a dish of grain in there but he didn't touch it, put some hay in and he started eating that right away.  Looking for any advise.  I can't just stop bottle feeding him (I don't think), but don't want more issues either because of this replacer (nor do I want to waste $ 75).


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## redtailgal

Mike Fronczak said:
			
		

> We had one of our three calfs that for whatever reason has given us all sorts of issues.  We didn't see the birth so I don't know if there were issues there or what, but we have almost lost him twice due to Moms neglect (left him in pasture & he got dehydrated to a point he couldn't move). Had to tube feed him electolytes, etc.  We do bring him out in the pasture to socialize for a couple hours, does well with it, mom is attentive as well.  He is also doing Very well on the halter.  Anyway he is almost a month old now doing very well or was, eating about 8-10 quarts a day between the 2 feedings.  We had been using Dumor milk replacer his stool was almost formed unine was fine, my wife switched brands (was at a different store), to another milk replacer (& bought a 50 lb bag of it, to the tune of about $ 75) now he has diarea black & green.  I'm nervous he will get dehydrated again.  I have a bucket of water in the stall with him at all times & it apears he drinks a little, had a dish of grain in there but he didn't touch it, put some hay in and he started eating that right away.  Looking for any advise.  I can't just stop bottle feeding him (I don't think), but don't want more issues either because of this replacer (nor do I want to waste $ 75).


If he is almost a month old, he is far too young for weaning.  I wont wean until they are around 12 weeks.  I take away the morning bottle, then a week later take away the evening bottle.

and um, 8-10 quarts a day?!!! Is that a misprint? Maybe you meant pints?  I hope so, for that would be WAY too much milk and would definately cause a lot of problems.

Even the largest holstein steer that I ever had only drank 4-5 quarts a day........and he was MASSIVE.  Most of my calves get 4 quarts a day.....2 quarts in the am/ 2 quarts in the pm.

Its pretty normal for them to no eat much grain at 4 weeks, esp if they have too much milk.  You  need to cut that milk back to 4 quarts a day, and leave only a handful of grain in with him.  PUT a little of the grain in his mouth to make him taste it and recognize it as food but ONLY after his poops have turned to normal.

FOR THE HERE AND NOW;

He needs to be started on some coccidia meds.  You can get them at your local farm store.  Either talk to a vet to get the specific drug recommendation or talk to a store employee to find what they have available and read the instruction on the label.  I use Corid.  Some folks dont like it and say it doesnt work, but it works good for us.  This may be different in your area.

GIve him the coccidia meds and follow the instruction on provided on the following link:

http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2952-calves-scours  (and when you go back to the milk, keep it at around 4 quarts a day)


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## Mike Fronczak

No the 8-10 quarts isn't a misprint, he will polish off 2-3, 2 quart bottles, I ussually bring a gallon jug of water out to the barn he drinks that plus the replacer mixed with it, at a feeding often he wants more.  What are coccida meds ?  The dumor milk replacer was medicated I don't believe this new stuff is.


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## redtailgal

HUn, thats just too much milk for a calf.  They SHOULD act like they want more when they are thru eating, if they dont either they are sick or they are overfed.  Feeding that much will cause scours and puts him at SERIOUS risk for bloat.  I can see giving 3 bottles a day to some calves, but many just cant handle it.  At least cut him back to 4 (maybe five if you are sure your gonna starve him to death, lol) and see if he doesnt graze better and start showing some interest in grain.

Coccidia meds, I use Corrid.  You can find it at the farm store, just follow the directions on the package. (medicated milk really doesnt mean squat, I've had babies get coccidia while on the medicated stuff).  The earlier you treat for this the better (meaning get on it quick).  Coccidia can and will scar the intestinal tract, causing failure to thrive, which leaves you with a small puny critter that will either have trouble keeping weight on for the rest of his life OR just not give you much meat for the table.

His age is prime for Coccidia, BUT drinking so much milk can cause him to scour too and switching brands could also cause an upset tummy.  It COULD be any one or all of the three, but if it is coccidia you need to act quickly to prevent the damage, and like I said he is at just the right age for coccidia to rear its ugly head and its the perfect time of year for it.

8-10 quarts! WOW!  He is a little piggy isnt he?  I'd have to name him "oink".  

I'm sorry you've gotten such a troublesome calf.  They are very stressful but they do give you an opportunity to learn alot.


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## Mike Fronczak

Yes he has been a pain, but we have learned a ton quick.  I let him in the pasture with the cows tonight after feeding him (again 3 bottles) he still followed me all over, with his mom up all over him, till I climbed up on some logs to observe.  He then proceeded to nurse off the cow that first gave birth (April 29), then his own mom.  I left him in the pasture overnight to see how he looks in the morning we have tried putting him back in to see if another mom would "adopt him" or if his moms is straightened out before but it was so hot, after what we have been through with him, I don't want to loose the progress.  But I also want him to understand he is a cow, and he needs the excersise as well, being kept in a 12x12 horse stall can't help his muscles, coordination, etc.  develop.  I also want to gauge how he is doing compared to the heifer calf that is 3 day younger, they're so close in age they should be pretty close in size, & development.


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## redtailgal

Lol, seriously?  He drank three bottle and then NURSED?    I'd be pulling my hair out.  I thougt of a new name....."Wilbur" after the pig in Charlottes Web.

I agree, letting him out with the other cattle is a good thing, so long as they are good to him.  Seeing as how, he's enjoying the milk bar like he is, it would seem that they tolerate him well.  

He is being seriously over fed.  You will need to watch him carefully for bloat.  There is a product called "Bloat ease" that many farm stores carry, I recommend keeping it on hand.  If you cant find that, keep a bottle of vegetable oil and some baking soda on hand.  I'm not saying he will bloat, but I am saying that he is at serious risk for it.  If you notice him standing hunch over (back curled up), or his belly being abnormaly large, you'll need to treat ASAP.  Drench with veg oil (one cup) if he is foaming at the mouth or having foamy farts.  In the absense of foam, drench with baking soda, 1/2 cup mixed in enough warm water to be able to get it down, keep him walking and POUND the snot out of his belly.  If his belly is really big, dont let him lay down or he will smother.

Not tryin' to scare you, I just want you to be prepared in case it happens.  I'd hate for you to loose him to bloat after all youve been thru with him.

lol, he sounds like a lil booger.

Keep me posted?  (and dont forget to look into the Corrid)


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## Mike Fronczak

Update for today, checked on him in the am he seemed ok, at noontime his belly was really looking thin (like see backbone thin).  I gave him a bottle but mixed it 1/2 rate milk replacer with 2 qts water, still chasing after me so I gave him a bottle and a half of straight water.  I don't want him dehydrated, I assume the dehydration will wear on him before malnutrition.  Going to give it another day or two try.


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## redtailgal

Can you post a pic of this calf.? A side view and a front view....


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## Mike Fronczak

Here are pics from this morning before feeding, you can clearly see wear his ribcage stops.






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This evening when I went out he was waiting by the gate to get fed, slammed 3 bottles.  Ive been putting the halter on him and walking him, he is ussually good for a few minutes then I force another 5 minute or so out of him.  Then let him back in with mom (had to shove him back through the gate), then he fed (or tried ?) on mom more.  I cant image his mom is putting out anything with the amount he ate today in bottles.


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## redtailgal

FOr these pics to be BEFORE feeding, I think he looks OK.  Sure a little more weight would be nice, but that will come in time.  I wouldnt be alarmed at seeing where his ribcage ends.  At this point in his life, his food is going to growth and bone development, so he'll have very little fat and muscle.  That caved in look that you are seeing is a good thing right now, it means he is processing ALL of his milk and has an empty belly.

If his belly was rounded out before feeding, you would have a problem.  He wouldnt be processing all of his food and that would make him SICK.

I am still having trouble with the amount he is drinking.  3 bottles....how much do your bottles hold?  Take them inside and fill them, then measure it out in cups or quarts, to get a precise measurement of how much each bottle holds (if its a store bought calf bottle they are NOTORIOUS for not being marked correctly).

He should be getting no more than 4-5 quarts a day.  To be honest, at a month old, he get a two quart bottle in the morning and another at night, with some grain and hay available all day long, if her were mine.

If your bottles measure out to hold the amount of liquid that you were expecting, double check the instructions on the bag, to make sure that the milk is being mixed at the proper strength.  Now, dont be insulted, this is an easy mistake to make.

If you are getting the proper measurement from your bottles and the formula is being mixed properly, then he REALLY needs to back off the milk and start eating grain more.  Cut him back to 2 quarts twice a day and push the grain on him.  You can switch him to bucket feeding, and put grain in a similar bucket to heighten his interest in the grain, but dont be afraid to take a handful and STUFF it in his mouth.  Maybe mix in a little (not a lot) of molasses.  That grain will get him started on the more filled in body that you may be looking for, it will put weight on him more readily.


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## Mike Fronczak

It is a store bought (Dumor brand) bottle, pretty accurate I would hues being that half the time I bring water out in a gallon jug, it will fill the bottle 2 times and 1/4 or so, once you figure in for the milk replacer space in the bottle seems about right.  The measuring comes with a container( that holds 2 cups) the rate is one cup per quart I believe (I will double check though), so one container per bottle.  The grain thing may be tough and keeping him in with the other cows, I know for a fact the will eat it before he will, and our full grown cows get mean (pushy) over grain so we don't give it often. We keep it on hand for the horse & goat, and as needed when a cow gets in a pinch, one thing I learned (the hard way),even when primarily raising grass fed, grain has it places.


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## Mike Fronczak

Ive tried mixing a little milk in with some grain now (basically making cereal), giving him one bottle then that.  Going to try just the opposite today give him that wait a couple hours then see how he does (if he figures it out). I have physically put it in his mouth as well.


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## Mike Fronczak

He didn't eat any of it, I ended up giving him 3 bottles @ 10 or so.  Just dealing with other issues today don't have the patience today.


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## Cricket

I'm used to dairy, not beef, and don't understand how you're getting away with feeding him that much milk and not getting scours!  I generally have to tweak mine along to get UP to ONE bottle--I'm jealous!  At one month, my calves are pretty much just nosing at the grain and experimenting--I wouldn't expect much enthusiasm for awhile.  And they're all different--my Jersey heifer would be open to new anything, my Holstein/Jersey steer took an extra month to wean completely. 

Good luck!  He's unbelievably cute!


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## Mike Fronczak

Messed him up today (on purpose) & it worked.  I fed him his ussual 3 bottles last evening, this am I went out and just put a cup or two of grain in a feed dish (he has a water bucket & hay already), that's all no bottle.  This evening I went out, his water bucket was down about 3 inches (so I know for sure he know how to drink from a bucket), grain dish was almost empty, I'm think that great.  Mixed a bottle for him as I'm feeding him I notice the grain mixed in with the shaving, he spilled it.  So I finished giving him the first bottle, gave him 1/2 of the second, then dumped it in his grain dish & got out of sight,  to see if he would drink it, he was vocal for a couple minutes then started drinking it, 5 minutes or less it was gone.  I wanted to try something, where I have the feed dish it's not level, probably 2-3 inches side to side.  I dumped a cup or two of grain on the high side, mixed another 1/2 bottle and dumped it in the low side, again got out of sight.  Sure enough he drank the milk replacer on the low side, then ate the mixed stuff and was working on the dry as I left .  Tomorrow am my plan is to mix one bottle put in one dish & leave grain out in another, if he is eating the grain & some (little) hay,  I'm very comfortable cutting his milk replacer back.


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## Mike Fronczak

I haven't updated in a while, after I messed with his schedule & it worked.  We finally fixed the one fence for the paddock area, it originally had had a wire fencing liner (goat fencing), but our horse took it out a couple winters ago & I had just put posts & barbed wire, which he would walk under, now has wooden rails.  I have him down to two bottles a day in the evening.  He has a bag of hay, water,  grain (usually 2-3 cups or so), and paddock area (small pasture), about 40x40, that we can now leave stall open to.  Most evenings when I feed him the grain is gone, dish isn't completely licked clean though like the bigger cows do.  He is definitely growing bigger, his diarrhea has cleared up as well by switching his foods up.  I'm hopeing to be done with bottles maybe at tge endof the month, then start with getting him off the grain (we primaily grass feed), slowly probably will take another month I'm guessing.  I don't want to try graining him in the pasture the bigger cows will just push him off it, separating every night is just a bigger pain.  I really try to avoid giving the bigger cows grain we did it for a couple days in a row once, agressive about it, that was the end of that, our bull (especially) & steer were always ok though, so if I need to put another one in with him to help with weaning it will most likely be my bull, if he will come off the cows (if their in heat it's probably a lost cause).


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