# New Anatolian Shephard puppy - Questions



## Hideaway Pines (Dec 14, 2021)

I am looking for advice, we just got an Anatolian shepherd to guard and protect our critters. But I was not sure if she needed to be kept in a completely fenced area? We were hoping as she matures and grows that she would know to remain nearby, but some places say that they tend to run off. She will not be off leash or left outside unattended until we are confident she is able to stay on our place, but I wondered if anyone had experience with this breed they wanted to share. We only have small areas of our land fenced. But we may need to consider fencing more if this is going to be an issue.

Our pup is currently only 6 weeks and is tiny as you can see from the pics, so she is in the house for now. But we have a dog kennel and attached doghouse ready for her when she is bigger. We were planning to put her in with our Pigs when we get them in a few months, I was hoping she would be able to fend off any would-be attackers... but now I am wondering if she will be ready for that when she is 5-6 months of age... or do they need to be older. We are in the deep woods here in Texas and have a wide range of predators we are concerned about, thus the reason we bought a 4th dog... yep, 4th..I think I need to have my head examined. But this one will be outdoors, and has a real purpose unlike the other three free loaders who sit in the comfort of our home most of the time...


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## AgnesGray (Dec 14, 2021)

Congratulations on your beautiful puppy!  

There are a lot of differing opinions about how to raise a good livestock guardian, but there are the things I have learned with our two. 

They themselves are prey and at risk if unprotected and alone in the face of a predator.  This can be if they are young and don't have the size, speed, and experience to defend themselves or it can also be if they are outnumbered.  In areas of heavy predator load, multiple dogs will work together to protect a flock/herd/themselves.  
Classic example: our two cornered a raccoon recently and our male who is 100 lbs, but only 15 months old, wanted to do it alone.  He told our female to stay behind him and she did.  The raccoon was much faster than him and he ended up with a slice on his face, just missing his eye and a bite on one of his legs before we were able to step in.  



He is going to be fine, but the learning definitely isn't done.  Our 2-year-old female, on the other hand, that is part anatolian, part GP and maremma, knows exactly how to dispatch a threat.  Her weakness is her size as she is 65 lbs soaking wet.  We are closing in on the two of them having the maturity and combined ability/strength/size they need to do the job.  

Roaming is 9 times out of 10 going to be a thing with these dogs.  Someone told me "if they see it, it's theirs" and that is about how they think.  We use field fencing with top and bottom hotwire and have recently added a sportdog containment system to keep our female home.  

Bonding with our dogs before they go to "work" has helped with their training.  While they are growing, think of them as a kid.  6 months old started a rough patch with our boy where he killed a bird by playing with him and he tried to do that with another that we were able to retrieve from him before that could happen.  The bond that we built with him and making sure he knew "leave it" or "drop it" was later a lifesaver.  When he was playing with that bird and he saw how upset it disappointed it made me, it was crushing to him.  What was important to me eventually became important to him and he responded to training instead of resenting my interference, thanks to all the time we've spent together forming a bond when he was a "kid".  He's just now maturing into a dog we can trust with all of our stock (he looooooves his pigs!  ).  Basically love them and let them love you and when they're able and ready, they'll defend you with their lives.  Our female was adopted at a year and a half old and we started with bonding with her like if she was a puppy.  She's fiercely loyal and protective, just as she should be.   

Good luck to you!  They're unlike other breeds we've ever had, but a wonderful asset!


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## Baymule (Dec 14, 2021)

Beautiful puppy! You can’t put a puppy in harms way as said above. But a puppy should spend time in the barn/pasture area, under supervision. When you transition her to the barn, a pen in the barn with the animals is usually a good idea. You can pen train her now, so she doesn’t have a screaming fit later. Training her to stay in the pen she’s in now will certainly help later. 

Most LGDs hate pigs. Mine do. I’ve only kept feeder pigs, but when I got them, the dogs alerted on them as a danger. I have to leash the dogs, introduce them to the new batch of feeder pigs-on the outside of the pig pen-and say MINE , petting and praising the dogs. But they still don’t like them. 

Predators generally don’t mess with pigs. Maybe if you have a little tiny piglet, but then mean momma comes after the predator. Since we have such a heavy feral hog population, that aren’t afraid and are mean, predators don’t mess with them. 

Do you have chickens?


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 14, 2021)

Thanks for the info and advice. I will certainly take this all into consideration. 

We do plan to put our pigs up each night in a mini barn (not built yet but we have all the material ready), we will put her with them at night too. It will be mostly predator proof but wanted her to bond with them and them with her - so when they are out in the field they work well together. We may need to fence in more of our place from the sounds of it... not easy with the density of woods we have. 

I considered getting her brother but was a bit overwhelmed at the hurdles we would have with her on top of our other dogs/critters. But the breeder is just down the road, so maybe we get another one or I could get a rescue to add to our pack. I have seen some ASD in Dallas that might be a good fit. I have read that if they work in pairs, it is best. We just wanted to bond with this one really well, since one of our rescue dogs has been a long haul to bond with us, did not want to have to overcome that hurdle with her. Did you let yours in the house? did they stay with the animals at night as well as in the day? Just so many things to consider with guardian dogs.  

I am glad your dog's eye was not damaged. who would have guessed a racoon would be that fierce.


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 14, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Beautiful puppy! You can’t put a puppy in harms way as said above. But a puppy should spend time in the barn/pasture area, under supervision. When you transition her to the barn, a pen in the barn with the animals is usually a good idea. You can pen train her now, so she doesn’t have a screaming fit later. Training her to stay in the pen she’s in now will certainly help later.
> 
> Most LGDs hate pigs. Mine do. I’ve only kept feeder pigs, but when I got them, the dogs alerted on them as a danger. I have to leash the dogs, introduce them to the new batch of feeder pigs-on the outside of the pig pen-and say MINE , petting and praising the dogs. But they still don’t like them.
> 
> ...


Thanks, her name is Jojo. 

We do have chickens and rabbits - we are hoping to free range some with her as a guardian. We have not done that at all up to this point, because they are lunch to half the forest. 

We would not leave her with the pigs until we were certain that all would be okay, and knowing me, I will be up checking on them all several time through the night to make sure things are okay. We plan to do the long lead/leash training with her as we teach her our place. I want to get her accustomed to the animals and to the night sounds. Since she was raised just up the road from us, she is familiar with the things in these woods. I was going to hold off putting her outside till she was at least 12 weeks old, she was the smallest in the litter - so she is not as beefy as her siblings. Just wanted her to be a bit sturdier before putting her out there. Did your dogs stay inside with you or with the animals? I am hopeful to get a goat in the near future to be in the same pasture as the pigs. So, there will be more to tend than just pigs. The chicks are not close to the pig area, so can't mix them with the rest of the critters, but I can easily put Jojo in with the chicks/bunnies to get her familiar with them.


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## Baymule (Dec 15, 2021)

In the house or in the barn? I've done it both ways. Paris was my first, a throw away messed up Great Pyrenees that killed chickens. We lived in town on a small lot with chickens in the back yard. She hated them and charged their coop snarling. Whatever her previous owners did to punish her for playing with squeaky toys, she blamed the chickens. 2 years later, she was the finest chicken guard ever. By virtue of them being in HER yard, she protected them and over time, they became HERS. When introduced to sheep a few years later, she attacked. Obviously they were monsters that would hurt me. I trained her to sheep the same way, built a small pen in her yard and weaned lambs in it. They became HERS and slowly we let them out in the yard, praising her for good behavior. I caught her chasing them when we came home one day and went ballistic on her with a rolled up paper, screaming and chasing her. She never chased sheep again and was awesome with lambing ewes. She would come get me and lead me to the new lambs. RIP Paris at 13 years old.

Trip, male Great Pyrenees. We got him at a couple of months old, 3 weeks before we moved here. Paris had the back yard, she hated Trip, would not share, we had to put him on a chain during the day until we got a cow panel pen built for him. We brought him in at night to keep the coyotes from eating him. He was a year old when we got sheep. He saw them as something to play with. It took time. He never bonded with the sheep, but guards the premises, thus they benefit from his presence. He's a fence jumper, annoying. I don't mind him jumping internal fences, but he ignores even hot wire to jump OUT. He wants to be in the yard, about an acre and sleep on the porch at night or in the heat of the summer, under the porch. Trip is 7 years old now.

Sentry is half Anatolian, 1/4 Great Pyrenees and 1/4 Akbash. I put him in the barn the first night, in  a pen, separated from the sheep. He squeezed through the cow panels to be in with the sheep. He did that until he couldn't fit through the holes anymore. Interestingly, he never squeezed through a cow panel to get out, he wanted to be with the sheep. As a teenager, he chased, so had to separate him at night. He grew out of it, plus scolding and hurting his feelings. At 9 months old, we discovered he had hip dysplasia and he had femoral head ostectomy or FMO surgery. He had to stay in the house in a dog crate, I used a sling to walk him multiple times a day to go potty, followed a therapy care program. After 3 weeks he could go back to the barn, but in a small pen. I walked him, gradually longer and more time. It was a 3 month program and finally he was free. Can't even tell it today. Sentry is brilliant, wise and the best guard I have. He worships me and guards me too. Awesome with children.

Sheba is Anatolian. She stayed in the house as a puppy, the transitioned outside to the barn. Sentry adored her and let her maul him, which she still does. He trained her to the sheep. I have to keep her out of the barn when the ewes are lambing because she wants to lick and love the newborns. That would make the ewe reject her dog slobbered lamb. LOL She went through the teenager chase lambs thing, I closed her up with some cranky ewes and they put her in her place. 

Sheba and Sentry are currently with Ringo the ram and his harem of 8 young ewes. 

Carson is a big black Labrador/Great Dane cross. He thinks he is a LGD and I don't tell him any different. He is ok with chickens and sheep. Not really guarding them, but not chasing them either. One night he cornered a prowling bobcat that was after newborn lambs. 

So looking back over my post, I have done a lot of things wrong and a lot of things right. I will continue forward with Anatolians. Great Pyrenees are good dogs, but are a pain to keep in the fence. 

The next puppy I get will go to the barn like I did Sentry. It will get in the house time and be properly spoiled like all my dogs are. LOL So, in the house or in the barn, it is up to you. Both ways work, both are right, neither one is wrong. 

You will figure this out. yes, you will make mistakes, but you will correct them. These dogs are resilient, smart and do fantastic jobs at what they do, no matter what our inept efforts are. The fact that the breeder lives near you is awesome, you have a mentor nearby. 

Fence your entire property, it can be done in stages, 1 pasture at a time. That's what we did. 

Welcome to the wonderful world of Livestock Guardian Dogs. I never want to be without 1 or 2 or 3 or 4............


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## Baymule (Dec 15, 2021)

One more thing. Socialize your dog. Leash train him, car/truck ride train him. It will be a big help when taking him to the vet and trying to lift a 100 pound unwilling dog in the truck. Take him to Tractor Supply, let him spend time on the dog aisle, pick out a toy, treat and praise him for being in the store. Take him to Lowes, they allow dogs on a leash. I let strangers pet my pups after letting the pup know it was ok. I don't want biting mean dogs. They bark, the Anatolians are distrustful until I say it is ok, but will still take awhile to warm up. The GP and goofball will bark, look mean, but are more likely to lick people to death. LOL We have a front gate that NOBODY tries to come through with 2 big dogs barking at them. 

Take your puppy on a car/truck ride. Socialize to the degree you desire. Make the car ride a pleasant experience, you will be glad you did.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Dec 15, 2021)

I'm just a touch concerned that he is only 6 weeks.

At six weeks old, a puppy needs his mother for play, contact and reassurance of social cues. He doesn’t need to be with her 24/7, and she needs time away from her puppies sometimes. But it's still very important that she is there. So, it really isn’t okay to bring a puppy home at six weeks. Even more importantly than his need for his mother, a six week old pup needs his litter mates/friends.

Litter mates help teach him social cues, and how to socialize later in the future. It really helps teach them when to bite, and when not to bite. Bite inhibition takes a long time to learn, and now that the puppy has been taken to soon- you need to teach him! this is on labs, but same effect -https://www.thelabradorsite.com/teaching-bite-inhibition-to-your-labrador-puppy/

You will also need to jostle him around constantly, to mimic what it is like to be in a litter at 6 weeks. If you don't, he may dislike being touched or bumped in certain parts of his body.

I wish you luck my friend!! 🥰🥰🥰Your baby is very cute!


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 15, 2021)

Baymule said:


> One more thing. Socialize your dog. Leash train him, car/truck ride train him. It will be a big help when taking him to the vet and trying to lift a 100 pound unwilling dog in the truck. Take him to Tractor Supply, let him spend time on the dog aisle, pick out a toy, treat and praise him for being in the store. Take him to Lowes, they allow dogs on a leash. I let strangers pet my pups after letting the pup know it was ok. I don't want biting mean dogs. They bark, the Anatolians are distrustful until I say it is ok, but will still take awhile to warm up. The GP and goofball will bark, look mean, but are more likely to lick people to death. LOL We have a front gate that NOBODY tries to come through with 2 big dogs barking at them.
> 
> Take your puppy on a car/truck ride. Socialize to the degree you desire. Make the car ride a pleasant experience, you will be glad you did.


You always give the best advice; you are truly a treasure of info!! You have had more than a few of these LGD, and you always encourage me to try new things and give great tips from your experience. I so appreciate you taking the time to do that!!

I am thinking we will keep her inside for the next month, then transition her out to her space and begin to get her introduced to the chickens and rabbits. I will put Sadie with her when she is put in the kennel, just so she is not alone. Once we do get pigs, I will see how that goes and take it one day at a time. But I believe we do need to put a fence up around her kennel giving her an actual yard to run in without us having to be there 24/7 to watch her. We do intend to give our chickens a larger fenced area for them to free range now that we have her to guard them. So that is on the list of things to do... which is a long never-ending list. 

But as she grows, I am going to try not to let her be in the house too much, mainly because of her shedding. We already have one dog that sheds, and two that don't - but her shedding is going to be excessive, and my allergies might be an issue with that. 

You brought up some great points, we were already discussing the idea of taking her with us when we go to town and walking her in stores just to socialize her. We do not get many visitors out here, so we will take her with us when we go places. We took our last pup, Sadie (part German shepherd and part Australian Cattle Dog) for the first year of her life for the same reason, it worked great, she loves car rides and meeting new people. So as long as our truck has room for her we will do this for her too. 

You amaze me with all you did to nurse Sentry, that sounded like a really crazy few months. But you won his heart forever. Jojo is loving playing with two of our three dogs. The older (and smallest in size) of the three is not interested in the least, the others play and enjoy her. She snuggles with them and wrestles with them quite a bit. So even though she does not have young siblings she is getting some of the same tussling with them. Cecilia's-herd mentioned that might be an issue, but hoping they are good substitutes for them. At the very least she is learning about pecking order, which is good because she will be bigger than all of the others when full grown. 

stay tuned, we will see how this goes...        
​


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## Baymule (Dec 15, 2021)

One thing to know about puppies. When they are playing and one bites too hard, the bitten puppy will yell out YIPE!!! They all stop, look worried, may lick each other, like I didn’t mean to hurt you, then go back to playing. I have used that YIPE before, but very sparingly. 

Now to sheep—puppy plays with sheep. Sheep don’t yell YIPE! So as far as the puppy knows, the sheep is having a good time and is running because it’s part of the game. With no YIPE! to stop the roughness, it escalates. Sheep may yell BAA, but puppy doesn’t speak sheep and sheep doesn’t speak puppy.  This will be the same communication block for whatever animal you put him with. 

This is explaining the communication gap so that you better understand what is going on. 9 months to 1 1/2 years, puppies have an attack of stupid. 

Chickens are the ultimate squeaky toy. When this one stops moving, just get another! Fun! Until Momma catches dog, tosses dog in chicken coop, beats dog with rolled up paper feed sack, yells, tosses chicken on dog and beats dog until dog is screaming for its life. Hahahaha! Here! Have another chicken! Swat. Swat. Swat! Gee I love rolled up paper!


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## Cecilia's-herd (Dec 15, 2021)

> Baymule said:
> 
> 
> > Until Momma catches dog, tosses dog in chicken coop, beats dog with rolled up paper feed sack, yells, tosses chicken on dog and beats dog until dog is screaming for its life. Hahahaha! Here! Have another chicken! Swat. Swat. Swat! Gee I love rolled up paper!


“Leave it” is the most important thing to teach your dog in my book. And it needs to be STRONG. We didn’t have to beat any command into our dogs, but you need a strong bond and high value treats. I’ll link some YouTube videos later. We’ve got a tornado coming in.


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## Ridgetop (Dec 16, 2021)

Treats don't always work for LGDs.  Our Anatolians will sometimes accept treats, other times they are not interested in them. Training Anatolians with treats does not always work.  This seems strange to most people (it certainly shocked me!) but my Anatolians would not work for treats nor would they bait in the show ring for treats.  

We also use the "Leave it!" command, however, once a chicken has been killed the "Leave it!" comes a little late.  It sounds like the "beating" Baymule is referring to is more noise and not so much physically painful beating.  She is using a rolled up feed sack that makes a lot of noise and is not physically harmful.  Her hysterical screaming, her anger at the behavior, and the feed sack noise as it slaps the dog is probably what is registering.  The commands are not being beaten *into* the dog, the "beating is a punishment".  The dog registers that their successful kill is not being celebrated by the beloved owner but has shocked, horrified, and angered the canine Deity.   Also remember that she is saying  that she catches the dog in the middle of the crime to mete out this punishment.  If she is late on the scene, she restages it in order to catch the miscreant in the middle of the crime.  She is not going off on them an hour later after the deed is over.  They know what they have done to deserve this punishment.

Another thing to remember with some breeds of LGDs is that they are not as far down the evolutionary scale as hunting dogs, herding dogs, working dogs like Dobermans and shepherds, etc.  They are in some cases closer to their primitive ancestors.  These dogs were bred to following the grazing trails with their masters.  They would not herd the sheep, but would patrol the outskirts of the flock to keep predators away from them.  They dd this on the move and also when at pasture.  They did not need the shepherd who might be on the other side of the flock to direct them to drive off predators, it was instinctive and those dogs that were best at it were valued and allowed to breed.  Dogs that were timid, afraid, ran from danger, these were killed because in primitive societies you can't afford to keep a non-productive member.  Guardian dogs that could not, or would not, guard were destroyed.  Eventually this produced a less obedience trainable dog, but one that thought for itself, determined danger levels for itself, and went into attack mode without direction from the shepherd.  In primitive times, and even into the 20th century these traits were valued.  Now with more litigious persons ready to sue if your dog looks unfriendly, LGD owners really need to understand training methods that work on these dogs.


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## Ridgetop (Dec 16, 2021)

Hideaway Pines said:


> Our pup is currently only 6 weeks and is tiny as you can see from the pics, so she is in the house for now.



I think I would have asked the breeder to keep her until she was at least 10 weeks old.  More time for her to bond with livestock if the mama is raising the p ups in the barn.   I agree with Cecilia that taking pups away from the mom before 8 weeks can be harmful to their development.  

She is a cutie.  If you have a barn, I suggest you put her crate (or a second crate) in the barn for her to spend some time there outside but safe from predators.  Eventually a pen in the barn for her to move around in.  At her age and size she is a mouthful for a predator so can't be left outside alone and definitely not at night.  As to putting her in with your pigs, she might be in danger from them also.  Pigs can be dangerous to other animals (they are carniverous) so if you put her in with them, make sure that she has a place she can get into that the hogs can't follow her. This is a good idea for any puppy in a pen with livestock.  I do it with my sheep and lambs too so the pup can get away if the mothers get nervous or the lambs too playful with a tiny pup.  

If you are serously cinsidering getting inie of her littermates, it willhave tobe a male.  Anatolians will be just fine with other Anatolians the same age and sex until about 2 years old.  At 2, when they start to mature, they will begin challenging each other for dominance.  Even littermates cannot usually be left together for life.  Male/female pairs do well, as do same sex pairs that are several years apart.  But be warned - male Anatolians can be extremely dominant to the point that they will assert themselves as the Alpha in the pack (the pack includes you and your family).  Female Anatolians can also be very dominant, but male/female pairs get along better.  Since this is your first Anatolian, I suggest you wait for the next litter to decide if you want another.  Contending with those periods of Anatolian teen angst is hard enough, X2 would be horrible.  LOL


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## Baymule (Dec 16, 2021)

Cecilia's-herd said:


> “Leave it” is the most important thing to teach your dog in my book. And it needs to be STRONG. *We didn’t have to beat any command into our dogs, but you need a strong bond and high value treats.* I’ll link some YouTube videos later. We’ve got a tornado coming in.




I agree with the leave it command. But as @Ridgetop explained to you on your thread on what breed to get, it is merely a suggestion. As are the rest of commands that normal dogs happily do. LGDs are marvelous dogs, lifetime partners, but they may or may not follow a command.

Why did I set up my 2 dogs for the chicken lesson? Because Sheba had led the pack on guinea killing and I couldn't stop it. The guineas were wild, couldn't catch them and I couldn't spend every waking moment with the dogs. Sheba derailed the whole pack. I was at my wits end. I could lock up all the dogs, but then I would have no guardians.  My sheep were more important than a bunch of wild idiot guineas that flew right back into the pasture that their flock mate had just been killed in.

 Even Trip, my Great Pyrenees went on a killing spree. He knew better, had been trained and was and is a darn good dog. The day I caught him eating the second guinea of the day, I went ballistic on him. I chased him around the pasture, throwing the guinea at him. He finally jumped the gate and ran to the porch. heh, heh, heh, I closed the porch door and whalloped him with the dead guinea until its guts spilled out. We ran the length of the porch, I screamed, cussed, beat him with that durned guinea and a flyswatter. I finally told my husband, standing in the doorway, to be the good guy, and let him in the house. BJ then put him in the backyard where I left him for 3 weeks. Obviously, the scolding he got for killing the first guinea that same day did not impress him one bit.

So I set up Sheba and Sentry. I put them in the garden, let the chickens out and ran to go get something. In the few minutes I turned my back, they had a wonderful time. 4 hens were laid out, fortunately only in shock and not dead. Sheba was clueless. All the commands, all the training, all the scoldings were like pissing in the wind. Stubborn. Really stubborn. Yep, I put both dogs in the coop and beat the crap out of them with a rolled up paper feed sack. Sentry KNEW better, but went along with Sheba. Pack mentality. Sheba's breeder chose me for Sheba because she needed a strong leader.  I don't beat commands into my dogs. I do take a rolled up paper sack to them for ignoring their training and killing poultry.

I  have a strong bond with my dogs. I've had dogs all my life, trained them and they MINDED. Then I got Livestock Guard Dogs. As @Ridgetop pointed out, LGDs should be a completely different species.

I don't just start beating my dogs with a paper sack. I train, I'm exceedingly patient. It took me TWO YEARS to turn Paris from a chicken killer to a chicken guard. I never even showed her a piece of paper. Just changing the tone of my voice crushed her.

  I reward with praise and approval. I correct, I scold. If they escalate their misbehavior, I escalate correction. Just as the leader of a wolf pack will attack and tear into another member of the pack, I will tear into a member of my pack. That almost never happens, but it is there if I need it.

I am the leader of the pack. It can be a savage pack at times. I have waded into a dog fight of two 100+ pound dogs and broke it up. What Ridgetop said about having only one male Anatolian, I do. But I have a male GP and a male Great Dane/Labrador cross. It can get tense at times.  I am the leader. I am the ALPHA BITCH.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Dec 16, 2021)

The alpha dog theory is wrong for most breeds. Not saying y’all trained your dogs wrong. I’ve never had a LGD. But I had been debunked. Here’s an article about it! I could link the actual study but this is more fun and less of a heave read. 1 page vs. 107 🤣

https://www.k9ofmine.com/debunking-alpha-dog-myth/ 
My favorite down below 👇 








						Dog Behavior and Training - Dominance, Alpha, and Pack Leadership - What Does It Really Mean? | VCA Animal Hospital
					

Despite the fact that recent studies have re-evaluated hierarchy models and have modified our understanding of behavior in the wild wolf, the concept of a hierarchal relationship among dogs and humans continues to be perpetuated. To ensure a well functioning family group, a family needs to know...




					vcahospitals.com


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## Ridgetop (Dec 16, 2021)

Sorry to say but the Alpha theory *is* correct.  The problem arises when people do not understand Alpha dominance for what it is.  Many people think it means harsh, overbearing behavior that forces others into subservient positions.  That is not true Alpha positioning.  Alpha dominance is not brutal behavior.  

Ignore the fact that we are talking about dogs and focus on family dynamics.  There is always an Alpha dog and bitch or man and woman in a successful 2 parent family.  The Alpha man and woman work as co-leaders of their pack (family) just as a successful wolf pack works.  The children are not Alphas except in rare cases where the parents give that authority to them.  And we have all seen examples of Alpha behavior in children and the destructive impact it has on such families.  For any family dynamic to succeed there must be an Alpha.  This does not negate the importance of the Beta personality or even the omega personality.  They are all important within the pack but there must be an Alpha or the pack disintegrates.

The concept of Alpha behavior has been twisted out of context by many who do not understand the true nature of Alpha dominance.  True Alpha dominance is not attained by shouting, physical aggression, or other aspects of physical dominance or brutality over a Beta personality.  Alpha dominance is more a matter of personality combined with some form of charisma.  It is a self-knowledge of one's own personality and ability to control.  It does not have to be fought for or impressed on others.  In humans it is known as leadership.  A true leader is followed willing by the pack.

When training dogs the trainer must be an Alpha to his dogs.  He is the leader.  He/she speaks in a firm, calm voice.  The true Alpha trainer does not tentatively ask the dog to perform a command, nor does he/she scream commands, but calmly states their command.  The key to training is to make it impossible for the dog (or horse) to do otherwise than what you want it to do. Calm, firm handling and training are what combine with practice to produce a well-trained dog (or horse, or any other kind of animal).  The pack where the dog is the Alpha is in trouble.

Alpha dominance is in the attitude of the trainer.  The trainer knows he or she is an Alpha, their very bearing proclaims it calmly to the dog who accepts it as right.  Unless you are more Alpha than your dog you will never be able to train your dog because the dog will not accept your authority.  The dog will love you.  The dog may obey you if you are handing out treats or food, but it will be with a tolerance that shows that it does not recognize your Alpha leadership.


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## Baymule (Dec 17, 2021)

I just watched out the window as Trip chased a rabbit in the garden, zig-zagging, then out the gate. Rabbit ran to the side fence where it bounced off the 2"x4" non climb wire and Trip snapped it up. For such a BIG dog (130 pounds) he sure can move fast. I found him chewing on the remains of a rabbit a couple of days ago so he is thinning out the population. 

I went outside to show my approval. Lots of Good boy! and Good dog! He stepped between me and the rabbit and lowered his head. I petted and praised him profusely. He rumbled a low growl of warning at Carson and he kept well away. Trip is now laying down, enjoying his meal, with Carson keeping a respectful distance.


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## Cecilia's-herd (Dec 17, 2021)

> Sorry to say but the Alpha theory is correct. The problem arises when people do not understand Alpha dominance for what it is. Many people think it means harsh, overbearing behavior that forces others into subservient positions. That is not true Alpha positioning. Alpha dominance is not brutal behavior.


Yes, yes, yes! 
When I was training to be a trainer (redundant)  they told me the alpha theory was wrong and we should be using *balanced training*. Which is exactly what you described. They must have changed the name because of stupid people who got the actual definition mixed up! Most people I know shouldn’t be allowed to have animals. Ruin everything for the rest of us and then we teach the younger people wrong!


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## Baymule (Dec 17, 2021)

I do believe we all have been talking about the same thing here.......


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## Cecilia's-herd (Dec 17, 2021)

Baymule said:


> I do believe we all have been talking about the same thing here.......


I do believe that to be true 🤣🤣


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## AgnesGray (Dec 17, 2021)

Baymule said:


> You will figure this out. yes, you will make mistakes, but you will correct them. These dogs are resilient, smart and do fantastic jobs at what they do, no matter what our inept efforts are. The fact that the breeder lives near you is awesome, you have a mentor nearby.
> 
> Fence your entire property, it can be done in stages, 1 pasture at a time. That's what we did.
> 
> Welcome to the wonderful world of Livestock Guardian Dogs. I never want to be without 1 or 2 or 3 or 4............



🎯 This is spot on! We have learned so much from our dogs and with them as they've grown. Can't imagine ever not having them now. Unlike any dogs we've ever had before them. Best "help" we've ever had too.


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 20, 2021)

Our pup, Jojo, is doing great. For now, she is inside, but once my hubby finishes the dog fence around the dog kennel she will be moved outside, this space will be about 1,700 sq ft, so she will have lots of room. But she needs to be bigger too - at her current size our hawks or owls could still make off with her. She is a super sweet and lovable dog and is learning basic things at this point like, sit, wait (with treat in front of her nose) down and so forth. She has only had one accident in the house (my fault), she knows where she is supposed to do business, so that is good. But looking forward to getting her more accustomed to my chicks and rabbits. She has met them, and it went fine. She loves our other dogs, two of the three think she is great, the old girl Misha (Coton de Touler) thinks she is a pain 😕 but all in all they are doing great. Sadie is our youngest one and she is doing a good job of playing with her and teaching her the ropes. Jojo is good to stay at my heels when we go for long walks each day, I am hopeful this will continue. If not, I will put a long lead on her to reign her in a bit. We are considering getting some other animal along with the pigs so she will have something to guard in that area during the time frame we don't have feeder pigs... but may wait to see how she does with the pigs, chicks and rabbits first... it has been fun having a pup again. I am a sucker for puppy breath and watching a pup learn new things.


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## Baymule (Dec 20, 2021)

She is going to do great! She is off to a good start. Work with her as often as you can with the chicks and rabbits. You are doing great.


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## Ridgetop (Dec 20, 2021)

Please do not put her in with the pigs since she is too small.  They will savage her and can kill her.


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 21, 2021)

Ridgetop said:


> Please do not put her in with the pigs since she is too small.  They will savage her and can kill her.


you are right, she is too small right now... and since we have not got the pig pen or pigs ready yet (it is not an issue right now), we are thinking March or April before we start them. She should be old enough by then (6 months) to be in there, and we will get baby pigs so they will not be too large so they can all get accustomed to each other - we hope to have her 1700 sq ft dog yard done in the next few days, this also has her kennel with attached doghouse in it, so she can get totally out of the elements. But for now, she is happy inside with us - she is doing so good, this morning she told me she wanted outside, did all her business without me stepping off the back porch (that was a first) and the other dogs are playing more and more with her too. she is bonding with us all.


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

I feel your worry about the pigs. I’ve never had predator problems with pigs. Their pen is up against the dogs patrol. They protect the young pigs without realizing it. But generally, nothing messes with pigs. Your dog doesn’t have to be in with the pigs, next to them or the ability to patrol around the pig pen would take care of it.


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 21, 2021)

I may try that too, but my goal is to have her willing to be in with any critter we have, we have some roosters that I am considering placing in with the pigs too, and we are thinking of getting other livestock as well (not too many, just one or two). Since the pig yard will be several acers, we have room for other things in there. Some neighbors near us have multiple critters (including pigs) in such a space, so this is what caused us to consider this idea. But either way, her dog run is very close to this area, so she can be on alert if need be. We plan to put any young pigs into a smaller yard inside this area to start with - then once they are big enough to find their way around the bigger pig yard, they will get the free range of the whole space...at least that is our plan at this moment, things morph once you get started on projects (at least ours do) we adjust as we land on better solutions to the things we are doing. I plan to visit a local farmer who raises pigs over the Christmas break. They will be giving me tons of advice on our construction of the pig area - I am sure we will come home with other ideas we need to incorporate in our plan. I so appreciate all the advice; I gather everyone's input and then try to come up with the best way to make it all work for our situation. We do have a lot of coyotes who have moved in recently due to some neighbors clearing some land. So concerned they will find easy prey in our pigs... or anything else we do get. We got Jojo with the mindset that she would be the guardian of all things on our place - really hope she lives up to the things we have read about this breed. If so, we will be thrilled!


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

Feeder pigs I’ve had would eat the roosters. I never put any other animal with pigs. Never.


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

You have this vision where all the animals live together in one big pen. I hate to tell you, but for the most part, it is not grounded in reality. Does it happen sometimes? Yes. But more often than not, it doesn’t. I would not even put a grown dog in with pigs. 

My last feeder pigs killed and ate a crow that flew in to look for morsels of feed.


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 21, 2021)

wow, okay then, good to know!


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Feeder pigs I’ve had would eat the roosters. I never put any other animal with pigs. Never.





Baymule said:


> I would not even put a grown dog in with pigs.


I agree with this also.  

We have kune kunes in our back pasture, furthest from our house.  Very docile sweet pigs.  Mostly big babies with us that love their belly rubs but bit one of our puppies the instant she got near enough to reach.  We have german shepherd sized coyotes and they've never messed with our kunekunes.  

Feeders are going to be way tougher.  They shouldn't need protection.  I agree that your dog should be protected from them.  Our neighbor told us about an old farmer that had his tractor parked between birds and pigs.  Anytime a bird would fly up on his tractor and poop on the seat, he'd get angry and toss the bird in to the pigs and it was gone in a flash.  

With feeder pigs especially (we are adding berk/durocs now), we never turn our backs on them and always feed them from outside the pen before going in.  I would worry more about the pup with the pigs and less about the pigs needing the pup, because that is not likely to ever be the case.  

I'm glad she is settling in and bonding with you all.  She sure is a cutie! ❤️


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## Ridgetop (Dec 21, 2021)

Our feeder pigs killed our geese.  Your pigs will be protected by the dog being outside the pen just as well as in.  In Europe, when we lived there, Belgian and Dutch farmers would run adult hogs in with the cows.  However, we never saw hogs in with cows and sheep during lambing or calving season.  If you have a lot of stumps and brush you want to get rid of, the hogs will root it up for you.  If you have good grass pasture though the hogs will root it up and destroy it.

My friend, Erick, breeds Anatolians and keeps several of different ages in each paddock on his 50 acres.  He has pecan trees and the wild hogs come in after the pecans.  They knock down his fences to get to the pecan trees.  He has a flock of goats in that pasture and 3-4 LGDs to protect them off BUT last year the hogs killed one of his older Anatolians.  She was a 10 year old experienced bitch and although the 2 young Anatolians - 12 and 18 months - that were in with her tried to drive the hogs away, she was killed.  Probably because she was such a good guardian that she did not allow the hogs to chase her off.

Five of his dogs also killed a very large cougar that had been killing sheep and goats all around him.  It took 2 adult experienced Anatolians and 3 pups, aged 9, 14, and 18 months old, to take out the adult male cougar.  Some injuries.

Even cougar usually don't try to take a pig from a group.  Hogs in a group will attack the predator as a group and kill the predator.  Pigs can be mean.  They also eat meat and will eat what they kill.


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

Yes. Pigs eat meat. Remember that and never fall down in a pig pen.


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## Baymule (Dec 21, 2021)

@AgnesGray this is the thread where I built my Pig Palace. Don’t have to go in to feed or water. Much safer that way! 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymule’s-pigs-2018-herefords.37448/


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

Baymule said:


> @AgnesGray this is the thread where I built my Pig Palace. Don’t have to go in to feed or water. Much safer that way!
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymule’s-pigs-2018-herefords.37448/


Thanks!  I agree!


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 21, 2021)

I have American Guinea Hogs.  I also have Anatolian Shepherd guardians.  I have the dogs to protect the goats and chickens.  The AGH's don't need protecting - they take care of themselves very well.

My dogs are of a decent size...the male being in the 125-130 lb range and they have a hate/hate relationship with swine.  American Guinea Hogs are generally very docile but they do like their food just like any other hog and they are incredibly strong.  Before my boar went to freezer camp I saw him take offense because my dog walked past him when he was eating.  I saw this boar flip my125lb-ish dog through the air like he was a toy.  He caught him under the chest with his head (thankfully not his tusks) and flipped him head over heels about 6 feet into the air.  That's not an exaggeration.  AGH's aren't even that big...the boar probably weighed maybe 200 lbs at the time.

Hogs are opportunistic feeders.  If it's sitting still it's fair game.  I had a rooster who loved to hang out in the pen with the pigs.  He would dart in and out and snag some feed and they never bothered him - he was too fast for them to even try.  However, one day the rooster got a little stupid and went into a muddy area of the hog pen and managed to get himself stuck in the mud.  It was the last stupid mistake he ever made.  He became pig food as soon as he was immobile.

With pigs/hogs - electric fence is your friend.     BTW - your pup is adorable!


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## AgnesGray (Dec 21, 2021)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I saw this boar flip my125lb-ish dog through the air like he was a toy.  He caught him under the chest with his head (thankfully not his tusks) and flipped him head over heels about 6 feet into the air.  That's not an exaggeration.


I have seen that flip and it's an incredible thing to watch!  Always a good reminder of how strong they really are.


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## Hideaway Pines (Dec 22, 2021)

I am glad to learn these things now, long before we get pigs or do something we regret with our pup. She will be kept outside her pen but very near them, I am now thinking we will create a separate area for the next critters, maybe alpacas or goats and she can be with them... but will just let her patrol the area for now. But again, we are a few weeks out from her doing anything. She was a bit young - I did speak to the breeder yesterday, they were born in the pasture/barn with her other big horn sheep. So, she is used to being outside. We have considered getting a rescue ASD from a place in Dallas that has a young male... thinking this could help her having a big dog to be with... but then that takes us to a total of 5 dogs... I am already over what I would have previously said was my limit  so not sure about this... just tossing the idea around. If we do, I will wait till after the new year and see how she is doing then...


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