# At What Age Are Bucks Able to Breed?



## thailand (Jul 24, 2016)

My kids, Jabari (M) and Aaliyah (F) are now 5 months old and still living together with their mum, Khaleesi (although they are penned separately from her at night).

My question is:  how soon should I be worried about Jabari trying to mate with his mother and sister?  He is definitely head butting with Khaleesi.  And, Khaleesi has been acting like a spring lamb in response!  She's been jumping and cavorting like I've never seen her do before.  Does this mean she's ready to breed again?

Jabari has been 'riding' the backs of the girls for the longest time, but I believe it's just playing.  I have not yet seen him make a serious attempt at anything.

I know it's a ticking time bomb....but here's my problem.  We built a great goat house for our goats a few months back, before the kids were born.  My husband is now very reluctant to spend money building anything extra for our little buck.    I know that is exactly what is needed, but I need some ideas friends on possible alternatives to building a separate goat house/penned area.     Thanks


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 24, 2016)

Have you considered castrating him?  At five months he is perfectly capable of impregnating both his mother and his sister.


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## TAH (Jul 24, 2016)

x2


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

He is old enough and quite capable. If your native goats are seasonal breeders as the daylight hours get shorter the does will start to cycle and he will breed them both. In USA they will start to come into heat around the end of Aug. and do so every 18 days until they are bred or until the seasons change...usually in March. 

Most large sized (also called Swiss Breeds) dairy goats are seasonal. But no idea about your native goats.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

If you wanted to keep him then you should have wethered him at 2-3 months of age. You still can and then keep him as a pet.
You could sell him intact or castrated for meat as well. 

If your does are cycling he more than likely has already bred them.


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## Latestarter (Jul 24, 2016)

You don't need anything as fancy as your existing goat house, just a simple box style in a partitioned area away from and separate from the girls,with a shelf for him to climb up on to get off the ground when it's wet will suffice. Section your existing pen so he's kept separated from the girls, but can still see them. When they come into heat, he WILL try to get to them, and they may try to get to him. He may also become aggressive during his rut, and of course fragrant.

Most male goats become "functional" anytime after 8 weeks of age. By 5 months, there's little doubt that he could "get the job done". Mounting behaviors are not "playing"... they are practicing, and practice makes perfect as they say. I would have been worried about the potential outcome months ago   He's already been "trying". Where you're at in the world (no real seasons) I have no idea when the goats cycle?   However, many times the practicing and trying will bring the doe into heat. I'd say 50:50% chance they've already been bred.


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I would have been worried about the potential outcome months ago



But again it depends on the does and when they are ready to breed. Any meat goat, ND, or "some" Nubians can cycle year round. (there may be others) The Togg, Alpine, LaMancha, and Saanens wait until the daylight hours start getting short. I leave all of mine together until August. And @Latestarter , if you can get a doe to come into season by having an anxious buck in with her then please come work that magic for me. I would love to have kids being born year round once the dairy is done. 

That being said I have no idea what the daylight/nightime hours are in Thailand or if Khaleesi, being half native goat, is a seasonal breeder. I would wether him ASAP.

Or you going to get a buck for your does?


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## thailand (Jul 24, 2016)

Thanks everyone for your quick replies.  I was wanting to keep him entire so that he could be bred back to his mother.  Goats are not very common at all in Thailand.  Well....they are in the south, but up here in the hills of the north they are not, and so finding someone with a buck I could 'borrow' for breeding would be like finding a needle in a haystack!  I was hoping however that I might be able to find that 'needle' for Aaliyah to breed her (but later when she's older).

Our shortest day here would be in December (our winter time).

This is my first experience of breeding for any goats so I don't have a clue at this stage if Khaleesi is a seasonal breeder or not.

Thanks Latestarter, I guess I'll just have to find a way to get a separate little shed made up for him.  It really is the only way to make this work.  I'm hoping that with the next round of kids we'll get another buckling, and this time I'll wether him and keep him as a companion for Jabari.

Worst case scenario and both girls are already bred by him....it should be fine for Khaleesi, but what about Aaliyah (5 months old)?  I understand this would be a very bad situation, but supposing that she could cope physically, genetically what are the chances of a problem?


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## TAH (Jul 24, 2016)

It depands on how much your 5 month old goats weighs?


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## thailand (Jul 24, 2016)

Oh ok.  Well, I'll see about figuring that out today and get back to you.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

If goats are hard to find you may swap with someone else. 
Brother/sister is definitely not ideal. You may or may not have any issues. Sometimes the issues are not externally seen, but may be internal.

Weight and rump width are generally how you determine. Most would consider 5 months regardless of weight too young. 9-10 months and about 100 lbs would be good.


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## thailand (Jul 24, 2016)

Thank you everyone.  Thanks also to Goat Whisperer    ......yes I totally should have been figuring this all out MONTHS ago!!   Aargh!!


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## Mini Horses (Jul 24, 2016)

Well, you have a situation and should separate the buck.  Then have the young doeling checked to see if pregnant.  Talk with a vet about what to do to abort the fetus, if it is not too late.


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

Don't feel bad, I have two 5 month old bucks running with my girls too. For the first time this year I have mini Alpines which may or may not be seasonal breeders depending on the influence of the Nigi gene. I was watching my bucks chasing one tonight and thinking about you.    I too don't have a pen to put them in and I am worried about putting them with the big boys for fear they will get hurt. I am keeping two of them as breeders so I need to figure this out. DH was supposed to build me three bucks pens by now...isn't happening. I will be lucky to have one pen with a shelter in it for them before winter. If the little guys end up where I think they might thank goodness they don't stink much their first year in rut.


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## thailand (Jul 24, 2016)

Thanks Babs      I know I've 'stuffed up' with not planning in advance for this.  I'll be very interested to see your plans for a buck pen and shelter.  Do you have anything you could show me as examples?


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

This isn't my picture, I copied it from the web. 

Can you get 16' long stock panels?


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## thailand (Jul 25, 2016)

No not really.  We did once buy some similar type panels in an attempt to make a chicken coup....but they very soon rusted and it was a disaster.    I do have an IBC I could perhaps use.  What do you think about this:





Only trouble is....would it be too hot??


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## thailand (Jul 25, 2016)

Ok, I've just been outside and taken a look at the IBC we have.  Actually, there is only the metal framework left.  The inner plastic bit must have been used for something else sometime.  I guess I could make this work...although it would only be temporary as it would probably only house the buckling (and no future wether)?


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## babsbag (Jul 25, 2016)

Can you get cheap or free wooden pallets? If so there are a ton of ideas on the web and YouTube for building fences and shelters out of them. I have also used chain link dog kennels with sheets of metal on the sides, or in a pinch a tarp. I use tarps or metal for roofing too. 

You could cover the IBC with a tarp for the winter. It would be too small for two probably but you have another year to think about that.


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## thailand (Jul 25, 2016)




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## thailand (Jul 25, 2016)

Yes I can get hold of pallets...not free, but cheap.  I'll have to brush up on my Thai language.  There's an old man up the road who knows where to get them but the last time we talked I didn't understand 'where' he was telling me to get them from.  Will try again    The other thing.....I'll have to build this thing myself, so I'll need a super easy plan friends  

Edited to add:  Another cheap option could be bamboo panels.  Photo attached.  What do you think?  I have seen them used by others here in Thailand for keeping their goats penned in.


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## babsbag (Jul 25, 2016)

The bamboo is neat stuff. How tall is it?  Do you need to build a fence too or just a shelter for him?


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## thailand (Jul 26, 2016)

Actually, I'm pondering on something right now.  Maybe I could put him around the back of our house, away from the girls who are at the front of the property.  I could put up 2 bamboo walls, one attached to our new concrete wall as the back of his new shelter and one side being the wall of our rabbitry.  Hmmm...maybe that could work, and inexpensively too.    I'd need to figure out a really simple gate to make.  I have the bottoms of a couple IBC units which I could use to keep him up off the ground a wee bit.  I'd have to put something over the bottoms because the slats would be too wide and his hooves would possibly fall through in places. 
Haha.....an idea is brewing.
Any thoughts to help me out?

Edited to say:  Oops...sorry Babs, forgot to answer one of your questions.  The bamboo fence comes ready made in 3 meter panels and each panel is about 2 meters high.  Sound good enough?  I could attach it to long metal stakes and stake those into the ground?


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## babsbag (Jul 26, 2016)

Keep in mind that a buck in rut stinks, and I don't mean a little. It won't be bad the first year and it is only during breeding season, assuming that your goats are seasonal breeders. You said your shortest day is in Dec.  On your longest and shortest days what time is sunrise and sunset? 

I think the bamboo panels would work well as long as you can make it sturdy enough that he won't rub on it and knock it over.


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## babsbag (Jul 26, 2016)

After looking around on Google and reading some boring articles I did find one that says that Thai native goats have non-seasonal breeding characteristics and good parasite resistance.  But she is part Alpine (???) so maybe she won't be entirely non-seasonal.


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## thailand (Jul 27, 2016)

This is the back wall I could use.  Would have to make it taller first with addition of bamboo.  The rabbitry is on the right.  I'd add some plywood to rabbitry wall, halfway up.


This looking towards the house on the left.  This area is overgrown with scrub/weeds and would need clearing first.  I could use this as his pen area.


Found these old fencing panels.  Could use them for around the pen.  Would need some fixing up a bit first.


This is the IBC base.  It has the strong plastic base within a cut-down steel frame.  The holes in the plastic base are too big though and Jabari's feet would definately fall through, so.......


I have 5 x of these panels.  They interlock together like a jigsaw puzzle.  I bought them for when the kids were born as the spacing between the wooden floor panels of the goat house is too wide for kids smaller feet.  I won't need to use these again until the next batch of kids.  There are enough for about 1m x 1m.


And these are bamboo panels we're already using as temporary fencing for our 3 dogs.  I'd have to come up with something strong to stake into the ground and then lash these panels onto.  I could go with metal or even concrete pillars just dug deep into the ground?  The concrete pillars are what we've already used for Khaleesi's pen.

How's that for a plan?


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

Sounds like the plan in coming together fine and it also sounds like you have some work  to do...

Can you get t-posts? I use these all of the time for holding panels and feeders.


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## thailand (Jul 27, 2016)

Hmmm not sure Babs.  I've heard of them, but whether I can find them here or not I don't know.  I'll have a look in the next couple of days.  I'm recovering from surgery at the moment and have to make a trip into town again tomorrow for a follow up check.  Plus trying to get disability cards for 2 of our boys this week.  A busy week


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

I would check into that buck apron that @Goat Whisperer posted, might buy you some time.  Recovering from surgery and building goat pens don't go hand and hand. Actually here it seems to work that way...let's just say "it shouldn't go hand and hand".  Hope you recover quickly and get things figured out for your boys too. 

The T-post are awesome. Once they are in the ground they aren't coming our easily. I fasten kennel panels and gate panels to them all of the time and I have one in the ground next to my buck's feeder as they kept tipping the feeder over so I lashed it to a t-post.


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## thailand (Jul 27, 2016)

Thanks for the good wishes...and yeah, shouldn't go hand in hand, but often does aye.  

I like the sound of these T-posts more and more...will definitely check out if we can get them here.  Thanks for the tips.

Me and one of our boys pretty much cleared the area in the photo above this afternoon.  Bit more tidying up and it's done, ready for building to begin. He wants to help me, so I think I'll let him  

I'll post photos are things start shaping up.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 27, 2016)

And....let the goat do the cleaning of the brush!  Hope you feel better soon!


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## Latestarter (Jul 27, 2016)

Hope you didn't "waste" all that vegetation you cleared out... Hope you threw it in the goat pen for your herd. I'm sure they'd have loved it


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## thailand (Jul 28, 2016)

ummmm....      thanks guys.....I have thrown it to the goats now.  And yes, they loved it.  I think I tend to over-protect my goats LOL.  I worry too much that they'll eat something they shouldn't and so I restrict their variety I guess.  That worked so well I'll be sure to continue their employment on cleanup duty.  

Thanks for the well wishes too.  Stitches come out next Thursday.


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2016)

I have about 25 fruit trees and when I prune them I take all the apple and pear trimmings to the goats, the stone fruit, i.e. peaches, plums, and apricots go to the burn pile but it sure is nice to let them do part of my cleanup. The blackberries go the goats too. I have an area that has poison oak and I need to clear it. I have a couple of goats that will eat it and stay near me at the same time so I am hoping to put them on cleanup duty soon. It isn't in a fenced area so I have to be selective on my crew.  

Hope this goes well and it is nice to have help.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 28, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I have about 25 fruit trees and when I prune them I take all the apple and pear trimmings to the goats, the stone fruit, i.e. peaches, plums, and apricots go to the burn pile but it sure is nice to let them do part of my cleanup. The blackberries go the goats too. I have an area that has poison oak and I need to clear it. I have a couple of goats that will eat it and stay near me at the same time so I am hoping to put them on cleanup duty soon. It isn't in a fenced area so I have to be selective on my crew.
> 
> Hope this goes well and it is nice to have help.



Babs how come you dont give the stone fruit to the goats? We discovered  a few days ago our horse and our goats.....eat eggs


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2016)

I'll just copy and paste...

_Under certain conditions, these plants contain prussic acid, or hydrocyanic acid), a deadly poison which interferes with the oxygen-carrying ability of the blood. Death in these cases is usually rapid and with few outward symptoms. Members of the Prunus family of plants, especially wild cherries, are dangerous. Peaches, plums, wild cherry, and other stone fruits belong to this group of plants. Wilting of the green leaves caused by frost, storm damage, or by cutting, changes a glucoside found in the leaves to hydrocyanic acid (HCN) and sugar. The sweet, wilted leaves are thus more attractive to animals than normal foliage. Hydrocyanic acid content varies widely, but under some conditions, a few handfuls of leaves may be enough to kill a horse or cow. This type of poisoning should be suspected when sudden death of animals follows windstorms or early sharp frosts. These leaves apparently lose their poison after they have become dry; the limp, green or partially yellowed leaves are the most dangerous._


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## thailand (Jul 28, 2016)

Ok...but see now you've got me a little worried Babs.  We regularly give fruit tree prunings to our goats, daily.  The fruit tree we're giving them is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longan

Do you happen to know if this would also fall into the same category as apricots, peaches, plums etc?


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## Latestarter (Jul 28, 2016)

According to http://poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu/goatlist.html  Longan is not listed under cyanogenics. I know Longan trees exist here in the states, so I would expect that if they were an issue they would have been listed.  Of course apricots, peaches and plums aren't listed either...   I know that it's an assumption, but since you've been giving them (Longan tree prunings) to your goats daily already, and they are still with you (IOW, alive), I would have to conclude they are fine.

"*Cyanogenics (plus a few that aren't...):*
Cyanogens are glycosides that contain both a sugar, and a cyanide-containing aglycone. They can be hydrolyzed by enzymatic action releasing HCN (Hydrogen cyanide), which is a very potent toxin. This in turn inhibits the terminal respiratory enzyme, cytochrome oxidase."


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 28, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I'll just copy and paste...
> 
> _Under certain conditions, these plants contain prussic acid, or hydrocyanic acid), a deadly poison which interferes with the oxygen-carrying ability of the blood. Death in these cases is usually rapid and with few outward symptoms. Members of the Prunus family of plants, especially wild cherries, are dangerous. Peaches, plums, wild cherry, and other stone fruits belong to this group of plants. Wilting of the green leaves caused by frost, storm damage, or by cutting, changes a glucoside found in the leaves to hydrocyanic acid (HCN) and sugar. The sweet, wilted leaves are thus more attractive to animals than normal foliage. Hydrocyanic acid content varies widely, but under some conditions, a few handfuls of leaves may be enough to kill a horse or cow. This type of poisoning should be suspected when sudden death of animals follows windstorms or early sharp frosts. These leaves apparently lose their poison after they have become dry; the limp, green or partially yellowed leaves are the most dangerous._



haha oh my 

i somehow read it as you were not giving them the actual fruit and i was like...wha, that says the leaves i dont understand 

i got it now...your not feeding them the leaves/sticks from the stone fruit trees. Just never mind me


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2016)

@Latestarter the leaves aren't bad for them if they aren't wilted but I am just worried that my crew will miss a branch and come back later when it is wilted so I just make a habit of them not getting those trimmings.  

The family of tree I watch for is Prunus and the Longan is not in that family BUT Longan is in the same family as Buckeye (horse chestnuts) and goats are not supposed to eat those.  Also in that family is Maple and goats eat those EXCEPT Red Maple, those are poisonous. So to answer the question...I have no idea. If they have been eating it I would just let them continue in moderation.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 28, 2016)

As for the Longan fruit..i found this study that was done, it appears to have been conducted in Thailand.

http://pubs.sciepub.com/wjar/3/3/4/

The study was for ewe and reproduction but scroll down and it gives a break down of what parts are "residue" nutrional breakdown and says this:

There is an increased demand for animal products in Thailand and other developing countries, thereby increasing the demand for adequate and inexpensive animal feed. Scientists have developed feeding strategies that guarantee the sustainability of livestock production systems based on local feed sources [1]. Several reports have shown that tropical fruit by-products can be used as animal feed to replace cereal-based concentrates without negatively affecting animal production performance [1], such as mango residues in sheep [2], tomato and cucumber waste fruits in dairy goats [3], and longan residues in cattle [4]. Moreover, many of these by-products are largely wasted or unused [5].

So i would say yes you can feed it to goats but i would definitely look for a local source to ask for sure. Possibly someplace or someone listed on the study link could help if you could find contact info for them. That study also links quite a few other studies that may give you more forage options there as well.


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## thailand (Jul 28, 2016)

Thanks so much everyone.  Such very interesting information.  I will see what I can find out this end and will report my findings here.


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2016)

I do feed my goats plums, the fruit...it is funny to watch them eat around the pit. Those lips are quite capable, almost like opposable thumbs.


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