# pregnancy toxemia in sheep & goats ...!! give Your opinion :)



## kuwaiti-90 (Dec 26, 2017)

Hello ...
  In an important subject I love to talk about and benefit from your information in it
*
pregnancy toxemia in sheep & goats*​
Many of us have sheep and goats and rejoice for her birth and breeding, but sometimes we grieve for her     ( pregnancy toxemia ) and there are certainly many reasons for the injury.

Is it a shortening or poor nutrition ....?
Is it bad interest and management ....?

I love to discuss this conversation with you to share experiences with each other 

I have sheep and goats and I suffer sometimes with the same diseases that you have in your sheep and goats. I have some solutions for these problems but I prefer to share them with you here.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 26, 2017)

We had pregnancy toxemia once. It was odd though, the doe was in good condition and certainly not underfed. All the other goats were fine too. Our vet was stumped as well- she is pretty close to us and knows our farm well, when she came out she was surprised as the doe seemed to be in great health. 

But the doe is a very heavy milker and pours everything into the milk pail. So many that pulled her down pre-freshening 

Anyway, she never went down. She just seemed a little sluggish and had tender feet. We first noticed it when she was walking along the pasture and stumbled, and then did it again. 

We immediately started her on propylene glycol and CMPK (calcium-magnesium-phosphorus-potassium). And also put her in her own stall with alfalfa hay. 

We did this until she kidded, and followed up after kidding and she has been fine since


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## kuwaiti-90 (Dec 26, 2017)

@Goat Whisperer 
Through your words shows how important you are to the flock and that it is comfortable with you. It is good that there is a veterinarian following the herd well, and I am happy to improve her condition and recovery this guide to your attention.

The treatment you gave it is nice , 
I sometimes or all the times in this case I put intravenous solutions (glucose 5% ؜ or 20% ؜) according to the case + calcium (cautiously !!) + vitamins given by vein + propylene glycol oral ,until the situation recovers ( doing these things with my self) .

We do not have the same minimum feed      ( alfalfa ) ,We mix some corn, beans, soybeans and molasses with barley and give it to sheep and goats. But this mixture is given only to pregnant ewes and goats in the last months of pregnancy, adding some vitamins and supplements and mineral salts in water .

Finally, thanks for comment and visiting my subject


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 26, 2017)

Thank you, we are so fortunate to have some pretty great vets here! We do most of the care ourselves as well, but often times have to conform with our vet first. We've had to run IV's & SubQ fluids on a few goats in the past, but not for toxemia (thank goodness!). I think my doe had a minor case of toxemia and we caught it quickly, so we were able to treat her with oral meds only.


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## farmerjan (Dec 26, 2017)

We also have had pregnancy toxemia in some sheep although not in several years.  It has also co-incided with sheep that were known for multiple lambs and higher end milkers( as evidenced by the lamb growth in past years).  We also follow the propylene  glycol  oral drench, and have upped the minerals with calcium/potassium balanced but increased.  We have stopped having this as a problem since we feed alfalfa hay pre lambing and for about a month or 2 after lambing.  Most of the times we have seen it with ewes that have triplets or 2 very big lambs;  they take up so much room in utero, that the ewes cannot eat enough to meet the bodies demands.  
It also seems to be more prevalent on years that we have hard winters and the ewes are trying to keep up their bodies needs to survive the winter and feed the growing lambs inside. 
Also there is a nutrient drench that has molasses and other vit/minerals and we can mix it in their water so they are getting small amounts all the time.


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## Baymule (Dec 26, 2017)

I haven't had sheep very long, almost 3 years, and haven't had that problem. I keep a good Bermuda grass hay in front of the ewes at all times. I give them a shall amount of pellets in the morning and evening, plus all the mineral they want. I have a ewe that gives her all to her lambs, she gets a cup or two of corn.

@kuwaiti-90 are veterinarians available in Kuwait like they are in the U.S.?


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## kuwaiti-90 (Dec 27, 2017)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Thank you, we are so fortunate to have some pretty great vets here! We do most of the care ourselves as well, but often times have to conform with our vet first. We've had to run IV's & SubQ fluids on a few goats in the past, but not for toxemia (thank goodness!). I think my doe had a minor case of toxemia and we caught it quickly, so we were able to treat her with oral meds only.



Excellent, many doctors in the place rest assured, but are they at the late hours of the night ..? In emergency cases ..?
We have many (very bad) veterinarians, but few are excellent and do not get them easily. 

In this matter I have to deal with the situation urgently and carefully so as not to lose the situation ... !!
This thing made me know some treatments and understand her method of treatment.


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## kuwaiti-90 (Dec 27, 2017)

farmerjan said:


> We also have had pregnancy toxemia in some sheep although not in several years.  It has also co-incided with sheep that were known for multiple lambs and higher end milkers( as evidenced by the lamb growth in past years).  We also follow the propylene  glycol  oral drench, and have upped the minerals with calcium/potassium balanced but increased.  We have stopped having this as a problem since we feed alfalfa hay pre lambing and for about a month or 2 after lambing.  Most of the times we have seen it with ewes that have triplets or 2 very big lambs;  they take up so much room in utero, that the ewes cannot eat enough to meet the bodies demands.
> It also seems to be more prevalent on years that we have hard winters and the ewes are trying to keep up their bodies needs to survive the winter and feed the growing lambs inside.
> Also there is a nutrient drench that has molasses and other vit/minerals and we can mix it in their water so they are getting small amounts all the time.




Nice words ,
This nutrition that you give is the same as that given by sheep or goats that I have.
With all these things such as what you said (cases of twin or 3 twins) nutrition is stronger especially for the last months of pregnancy,
Sometimes we have to give them Intravenous (10% Glucose) solution to keep them from getting infected every other day, mixed with vitamins and calcium.
This thing whether summer or winter, is more than summer .


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## kuwaiti-90 (Dec 27, 2017)

Baymule said:


> I haven't had sheep very long, almost 3 years, and haven't had that problem. I keep a good Bermuda grass hay in front of the ewes at all times. I give them a shall amount of pellets in the morning and evening, plus all the mineral they want. I have a ewe that gives her all to her lambs, she gets a cup or two of corn.
> 
> @kuwaiti-90 are veterinarians available in Kuwait like they are in the U.S.?




I have up to 90 sheep, 4 rams  and 15 goats, and they need good feed because they walk in the desert and a few plants in the desert and do not waste good nutrition.
I have to give barley and some other types of feed to them.

Yes, there are veterinarians in Kuwait, but some are very bad in dealing with animals.
There are excellent doctors but it is difficult to come to us, and the cost is very high for the place


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## Goatkid51 (Jan 6, 2018)

I ran into three cases of VERY minor PT last year (tender feet, sluggish), and I couldn't figure out why because I was giving them plenty of calcium--free choice loose minerals, grain mix with 2:1 calcium, and alfalfa/grass hay with a high percentage of alfalfa.  And they were on the alfalfa since about 4 months before kidding.

Well, it turns out... if you give a goat high levels of calcium before their bodies need it (4 months before kidding), the calcium pump/system that their bodies use to regulate the calcium stops trying to store it away due to the excess.  Then when the goats kid and come into milk, even though there is lots of calcium available, the goats have trouble metabolizing it properly because that system for storing it had shut down.

Moral of the story is be careful to maintain calcium levels around the normal 2:1 until sometime in the third trimester or last month of pregnancy, (and that's very possibly what happened to Goat Whisperer's goat).  And if, by chance, you overfed calcium and are now seeing PT symptoms, the only treatment is to load them up even more with Calcium since their bodies aren't absorbing it well, until it's time for them to dry off.


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## Goatkid51 (Jan 6, 2018)

(If anyone reading isn't aware, alfalfa is 16-20:1 calcium : phosphorous, and corn is something like 1:5--high in phosphorous.  You can feed fairly high levels of Ca or P, as long as they are balanced with each other at about 1.8-2:1 for goats.  If your balance gets too far off, such as 1:1 or 5:1, you'll start seeing symptoms relating to calcium or phosphorous toxicity or deficiency, depending on your details.  Now during lactation, the increased need for calcium is relatively higher than the increased need for phosphorous--yes, they need a little extra of that too--so lactating goats can tolerate higher ratios of Ca : P than they normally would.  Anyway, just extra credit info for the science nerds out there . )

(And by the way, an imbalance in that ratio is what typically leads to urinary calculi, as well, generally too much phosphorous.  Grains are high in phosphorous, most greens like grass and hay are the ideal of about 2:1, and that is why you most commonly see urinary calculi in pet male goats (smaller urethra and getting grain when they do not have an increased demand for production).)


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## kuwaiti-90 (Jan 7, 2018)

@Goatkid51 

Hello ,
Thank you for adding the information and your participation in the subject.

There is a difference between calcium deficiency and pregnancy toxemia . Determined by blood analysis.

This depends on the owner of the sheep or goat and it varies depending on their feeding, the disease starts from the last months of pregnancy, and there are clear signs of the disease in case of lack of nutrition.
The shepherd of the sheep, must be a prophet and an expert on his flock of these diseases because they lose.
I often before the sheep-breeding season do the ultrasound scan sheep, isolate pregnant sheep from the rest of the herd and have a diet of their own.


Thanks .


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 7, 2018)

Goatkid51 said:


> I ran into three cases of VERY minor PT last year (tender feet, sluggish), and I couldn't figure out why because I was giving them plenty of calcium--free choice loose minerals, grain mix with 2:1 calcium, and alfalfa/grass hay with a high percentage of alfalfa.  And they were on the alfalfa since about 4 months before kidding.
> 
> Well, it turns out... if you give a goat high levels of calcium before their bodies need it (4 months before kidding), the calcium pump/system that their bodies use to regulate the calcium stops trying to store it away due to the excess.  Then when the goats kid and come into milk, even though there is lots of calcium available, the goats have trouble metabolizing it properly because that system for storing it had shut down.
> 
> Moral of the story is be careful to maintain calcium levels around the normal 2:1 until sometime in the third trimester or last month of pregnancy, (and that's very possibly what happened to Goat Whisperer's goat).  And if, by chance, you overfed calcium and are now seeing PT symptoms, the only treatment is to load them up even more with Calcium since their bodies aren't absorbing it well, until it's time for them to dry off.


Good info BUT my goat did not have hypocalcemia. I did supplement with a little calcium because blood work showed she would be fine to have a little, but I *was not *going to load her up on it. My goat had pregnancy toxemia- which is known as ketosis after the goat kids. Ketosis is a glucose issue, not a calcium issue.


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## RoahT (Jan 7, 2018)

I have a question- how do you tell the difference between toxemia and milk fever?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 7, 2018)

When we dealt with PT I used ketone strips and had our vet run some blood work.

But the tender feet were a dead giveaway, clearly PT.


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## RoahT (Jan 7, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> When we dealt with PT I used ketone strips and had our vet run some blood work.
> 
> But the tender feet were a dead giveaway, clearly PT.


What do you mean exactly by tender feet? Sorry, I'm an extreme greenhorn!!


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 7, 2018)

RoahT said:


> What do you mean exactly by tender feet? Sorry, I'm an extreme greenhorn!!


Her feet hurt. We first noticed because she stumbled, not normal but not a huge deal either. But then she did it again. Something is wrong. When she moved, she acted like her feet hurt. Some say it’s like they are “walking on eggshells”. Thankfully our doe never went down. Never had the odd smelling breath or swollen feet.


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## kuwaiti-90 (Jan 8, 2018)

@Goat Whisperer
@RoahT

Welcome to you ..

This explanation needs to be explained by a veterinarian, but I will explain the difference between milk fever and PT.

PT Is the expression of the level of sugar in blood, which causes the cessation of liver secretion to the blood and the distribution of elements and food in blood and also kidney functions are not balanced. And also low levels of calcium in blood.

But things happen when PT is the temperature of the body for a day & half day Increase to 40 Celsius, and then return normal with the sheep or goats, and the temperature seems normal after falling or sitting, accompanied by a change in the color of the udder to dark red or blue And stop the movement of blood inside and have a cold sage
(The end of the general poisoning of the sheep or goat) and then farewell to her at the last stages even after birth some times.

Realistic explanation:
Milk fever, is drop of the level of calcium in blood and see the sheep or goat is not balanced by walking as in PT but the difference after the fall is accompanied by a drop in the temperature of the body, this happens for sheep or goats produced large amounts of milk.

VETERIA:
Lack of the level of ionized calcium in the blood and tissue is the basis of the disease where a temporary period of lack of calcium level at the beginning of the period of generation causes imbalance between the secretion of calcium in milk (sarcophagus) and calcium to the tissues of the intestine and bone.

Detection by blood examination and test .

In the case of PT occurs the descent of most of the internal elements and sugar in the body together with calcium also for the bad (liver distribution), but ((accompanied by a rise in the level of urea (urine or Uric) blood + acetone before urea), we will notice a close relative of apple vinegar or acetone It smells by mouth, Stopping kidney function and urinary incontinence causes high levels of urea in blood and acetone.

I hope the explanation will be clear.
All this explanation and personal effort and from his experience in the areas of sheep and goats, and does not enrich the consultation of the veterinarian.


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## whisperingsage (Jan 11, 2018)

My standard supplements that prevent that are kelpmeal free choice, dolomite free choice, raw rice bran a cup or two per head per day, Vitamix multiple vitamin powder, a tablespoon per head, more if they crave it, they know what they need, and agrilabs electrolyte in the winter for the vitamin D. ( Or the goats eat the sheep's wool, which is a rich source of vitamin D, woolgrease, they are icelandics). Stay away from soy, it messes up hormones, too much estrogen, and too many antinutrients. I tried soy for two years, really caused some damage. When I can't afford supplements, yes I have had the swollen feet. But I haven't had that for years now. Make sure you get a trace minerals block with iodine. We also have to supplement with copper and selenium here, even sheep.


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## whisperingsage (Jan 11, 2018)

Also look up the work of William Albrecht, the soil science founder. And then look up Dead Doctors Don't Lie by Joel Wallach and look at his videos, there are lots. He was originally a veterinarian and expanded to humans when he saw how stupid the research field was.


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## kuwaiti-90 (Jan 11, 2018)

@whisperingsage

Yes, your words are true, but as far as we are concerned, it is different from you. You may have a higher concentration of nutrients.

The supplements you give are good, but there are things that may decrease and need to be drained by the vein. In the same case, it carries three twins, and the feed does not cover its need for food, especially in the last two weeks.

We often use soybeans for fattening for sheep or goats and do not give it in summer only in winter. I am a vitamin in general, given periodically as a year, ie 7 days a month or 5 days a month, this is for the general sheep. Pregnant ewes or goats  have a very special feeding in the very last months of pregnancy even in water we put the vitamins.

I do not rely on a veterinarian in my sheep and goat food, because some of them do not have enough experience for them than the livestock owner.


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## jsteph3919 (Jan 14, 2018)

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/ketosis.htm
This is some good information about this.


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## kuwaiti-90 (Jan 16, 2018)

@jsteph3919 

Thank you for the site ..
It is really a nice and informative site, and thanks for the support


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## Baymule (Jan 25, 2018)

Last year I had to put a ewe down because of a ruptured pre-pubic tendon. I had never even heard of that condition and did not recognize it for what it was. I had lost her twin lambs, they died in my lap, then the ewe couldn't get up and we took her to the vet. I cried a LOT and I am not one to cry, but that tore my heart out. 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymules-lambs-2nd-lambing.34888/

I got a lot of support from my friends here, and I learned from the experience. The hard way, but I learned.


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## RoahT (Jan 26, 2018)

Baymule said:


> Last year I had to put a ewe down because of a ruptured pre-pubic tendon. I had never even heard of that condition and did not recognize it for what it was. I had lost her twin lambs, they died in my lap, then the ewe couldn't get up and we took her to the vet. I cried a LOT and I am not one to cry, but that tore my heart out.
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymules-lambs-2nd-lambing.34888/
> 
> I got a lot of support from my friends here, and I learned from the experience. The hard way, but I learned.


Oh, I feel for you! It's so hard having to learn the hard way on your much loved animals, but it seems like that's the way most things are learned... at least for me!


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## kuwaiti-90 (Jan 28, 2018)

Baymule said:


> Last year I had to put a ewe down because of a ruptured pre-pubic tendon. I had never even heard of that condition and did not recognize it for what it was. I had lost her twin lambs, they died in my lap, then the ewe couldn't get up and we took her to the vet. I cried a LOT and I am not one to cry, but that tore my heart out.
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymules-lambs-2nd-lambing.34888/
> 
> I got a lot of support from my friends here, and I learned from the experience. The hard way, but I learned.




Actually I'm sorry for your subject ... actually sorry loss lambs ..
Because I know how much you love him and how you care about her

But it's good that you learned this experience for the future .. (I do not wish you that in the future)


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## Baymule (Jan 28, 2018)

kuwaiti-90 said:


> Actually I'm sorry for your subject ... actually sorry loss lambs ..
> Because I know how much you love him and how you care about her
> 
> But it's good that you learned this experience for the future .. (I do not wish you that in the future)


The great thing about this forum is that we share our experiences, good or bad, that we all might learn. Because of what other people have posted, I have learned so much.


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## kuwaiti-90 (Jan 29, 2018)

Baymule said:


> The great thing about this forum is that we share our experiences, good or bad, that we all might learn. Because of what other people have posted, I have learned so much.



Hello Bay  ..

Yes, a good thing to learn from others and to develop self from their experiences.
I love this forum frankly, but I notice there are differences in some things in terms of breeding methods of livestock and their treatments.
I think some diseases are different from yours or they do not have the same. Little but not all.


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