# Article on goat abortions 2012/13



## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 22, 2013)

http://tennesseemeatgoats.com/MeatGoatMania/January2013/

Take from it what you want but it does seem to me that alot of people have been having kidding/lambing issues this year.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 22, 2013)

Interesting read and I have noted that a lot of people have been dealing with early labor/abortion/stillborn this year.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 22, 2013)

Had an NCDGA meeting last week.  We have a large animal vet who raises Toggenburgs who is the advisor to our club and he brought this subject up.

Said it was relatated to a fungus on corn, producing some type of toxin.

He seemed to indicate it was more than merely anecdotal evidence, but I honestly didn't get all of the details or any type of statistics.


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## poorboys (Jan 23, 2013)

thanks for the thread, good stuff to know.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 23, 2013)

Interesting, I have noticed abortion diseases are on the rise this year.  I assumed due  to the milder past couple of winters we have had.  More parasites and more germs.  I always enjoy reading articles from tennesseemeatgoats.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 23, 2013)

*Interesting article. I too enjoy reading articles by them.

However my question/ concern is that they are giving antibiotics widely. Not to say that it's not helping, as it very well may, but should we be giving antibiotics every 30 days without any symptoms? Wouldn't that breed antibiotic resistance?*


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 23, 2013)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Interesting article. I too enjoy reading articles by them.
> 
> However my question/ concern is that they are giving antibiotics widely. Not to say that it's not helping, as it very well may, but should we be giving antibiotics every 30 days without any symptoms? Wouldn't that breed antibiotic resistance?*


Don't know the answer to that, other than to say it is a very very common practice using tetracyclene in the feed or in the water for abortion diseases.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 23, 2013)

*I'm a newbie so I have never heard of it until now, is that something I should be doing?*


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 23, 2013)

Yeah I'm not sure I'm into injecting them with anything that often or that much. Would have to see more info on it to consider it. 

But I did think the article was interesting. There are alot of people with birthing issues.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 23, 2013)

Most farms that I know that are using tetracylcene for prevention of abortion diseases are using the feed grade form of it(Aureomcyin 4G).  But technically the injectable would be more dependable and you would be sure everyone is getting the exact right dosage.  I have never herd of every 30 days. What I have heard and have done is 30 days before breeding for 5 days and then at 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 months putting the 4G crumbles in the feed on a daily basis until they kid.  THe amount of chlorotetracyclene you would use would be on a prevention basis and not a treatment level for long term daily use. The initial 5 days before breeding season would be a treatment level.  

This is for Duramycin in the water or for 4G in the feed.
We are using 10 mg per lb of body weight of active ingredients for treatment for 5 days and only 
.5mg to 1.5 mg per lb per day of chlorotetracyclene for long term daily treatment level. 
this is compared to .1 mg per lb per day for increased growth rate of kids and feeder calves.


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## kstaven (Jan 28, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> He seemed to indicate it was more than merely anecdotal evidence, but I honestly didn't get all of the details or any type of statistics.


He was referring to aflotoxin and it is well documented. Here is some general info on it. http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/aflatoxin/aflatoxin.html

Feeding tetracycline is a bandaid approach used because feed ingredients have not been properly stored or processed and afflotoxin has had the chance to propagate uncontrolled. Once again treating the end product problem rather than dealing with the source issue.

Edited to add: Before some one jumps on the you can't avoid the issue when dealing with grains, corn etc... That is not true.

Fermented feeds resolve the issue, are proven to boost immune function in animals and increase bio-availability of the feed ration. The resolution is noted in the linked paper. In all reality on-farm fermentation is not that difficult and pays off when looking at the bottom line costs.


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## that's*satyrical (Jan 28, 2013)

Chaffhaye is an excellent product. It's reasonably priced and contains probiotics and natural fermentation products.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 28, 2013)

kstaven said:
			
		

> OneFineAcre said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I read the articlel as,  "some people are blaming it on the GMO feed, but he does not see it that way and there is no evidence." By treating with Tetracyclenes he is treating for Kidding diseases that have increased in numbers due to increased temps the last couple of years and not cold enough winters.  That is what I took from the article.


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## Oakroot (Jan 28, 2013)

Wasn't there a whole thing where because the corn crop was so bad they where allowing corn with more mold through inspection and people where saying then that this was going to cause more problems like abortions? Wish I could find that post.

ETA: I did find this. http://www.ksda.gov/news/id/496 This is for KS but I know it was US wide. 

Wouldn't everyone who is feeding commercial mixes containing corn be subject to this?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 28, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a whole thing where because the corn crop was so bad they where allowing corn with more mold through inspection and people where saying then that this was going to cause more problems like abortions? Wish I could find that post.
> 
> ETA: I did find this. http://www.ksda.gov/news/id/496 This is for KS but I know it was US wide.
> 
> Wouldn't everyone who is feeding commercial mixes containing corn be subject to this?


that is interesting, I bet it would depend on how much corn is in their diet.  For example our feed only has like 300 lbs in the entire ton of feed.  There are 4 other grains in the feed.  So when you break that down per animal per day, they really aren't getting that much corn.  If you are feeding a cob type feed you woudl certainly be feeding a higher percetage of corn.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 28, 2013)

kstaven said:
			
		

> OneFineAcre said:
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> ...


Aflotox.  That's exactly what he said.


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## kstaven (Jan 28, 2013)

From your description it was pretty obvious what he was referring to. We have dealt with this also.

And yes people are correct that weather has a huge impact on aflotoxin. Changes in temps, humidity etc. The exposures to such during storage and shipping of feeds and the variables go on and on. So while it may start out low percentage the difference comes in surrounding how it is stored, where it is stored, heat and humidity exposure of the feed on the way to you and how you handle all these variables on farm. The weird weather patterns that north america has been experiencing in many regions are setting up the ideal environment to make this a huge problem.

Corn % really isn't a factor in the overall when dealing with mixed feeds because other grains and cereal meals allow for propagation.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 29, 2013)

The article specifically states...:*
"I hear rumors of people blaming it on GMO (genetically modified organisms) in goat feed, but I find no evidence whatsoever of that, and I am a believer that it is usually the simplest thing that is wrong. I believe that drought, an enormous environmental stressor, is to blame. Nature is culling because there isn't enough out there for the kids to eat. Instinct doesn't tell the dams that I'm going to be providing food. The does' bodies react instinctively to environmental stress.

It doesn't matter what abortion organism is the cause, and as a producer, you don't have time for clinical diagnosis. For some abortion diseases in goats there are no tests or the tests are not definitive. None of the abortion vaccines for other species work with goats. Consider following the protocol that I developed in 2001 after the abortion disaster that befell my herd that year"

*

It clearly is referring to abortion disease. no where in the article does it refer to any Aflotox.  In fact it says, *"but I find no evidence whatsoever of that"*

I normally ignore things that I don't agree with, but I will just politely say that I think some people are using this as a chance to turn this article into their personal pedestal on a very debated subject. This article in my opinion is clearly referring to an increase in abortion diseases due to nature feeling the stress of a drought.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jan 29, 2013)

> This article in my opinion is clearly referring to an increase in abortion diseases due to nature feeling the stress of a drought.


It is. 

That's exactly what the article is about.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 29, 2013)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> The article specifically states...:*
> "I hear rumors of people blaming it on GMO (genetically modified organisms) in goat feed, but I find no evidence whatsoever of that, and I am a believer that it is usually the simplest thing that is wrong. I believe that drought, an enormous environmental stressor, is to blame. Nature is culling because there isn't enough out there for the kids to eat. Instinct doesn't tell the dams that I'm going to be providing food. The does' bodies react instinctively to environmental stress.
> 
> It doesn't matter what abortion organism is the cause, and as a producer, you don't have time for clinical diagnosis. For some abortion diseases in goats there are no tests or the tests are not definitive. None of the abortion vaccines for other species work with goats. Consider following the protocol that I developed in 2001 after the abortion disaster that befell my herd that year"
> ...


Actually I was not referring to the article that Straw Hat posted at all.

And, Kstaven only quoted a part of what I wrote in my original posting.

So, let me restate:


I was referring to a meeting I recently attended of the NCDGBA association where our advisor who is a large animal vet who owns a large herd of Toggenburgs mentioned there being evidence in the veterinary community of something going on related to abortion in goats.  He stated that it had something to do with Aflotoxin.

I thought it was coincidental that Straw Hat made this post, and I had just heard a veterinarian discuss it just days before.  That's why I made my original post to begin with.  Was not trying to detract from the article, but perhaps add more information to the discussion.

Also, the writer did not address Aflotoxin at all.  When they said they "found no evidence at all" they were referring to GMO, not Aflotoxin.

Aflotoxin is caused by mold.  What I heard came from a large animal vet at an educational forum.

No political agenda on my part.  Not even weighing in on that GMO subject, I'm not particularly interested in that debate personally.


This article is the opinion of one person who attributes it to drought and natures way of culling the herd.  Which I think is valid.

But, it could be other things.  How do you explain it in NC.  We have not been in a drought and had one of the most abundant corn crops we've had in many years, and an abundance of hay as well.


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## Oakroot (Jan 29, 2013)

It seems like some people in this post are trying to use Aflatoxin and GMO interchangeable but they are not even related in the slightest. Just wanted to point out that one has nothing to do with the other.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 29, 2013)

Oakroot said:
			
		

> It seems like some people in this post are trying to use Aflatoxin and GMO interchangeable but they are not even related in the slightest. Just wanted to point out that one has nothing to do with the other.


Actually I don't think anyone is trying to use  them that way, but I think some are misinterpreting in that way.


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## madcow (Jan 29, 2013)

When I took our 2 baby goats to the vet last week he told me that the draught has caused lots of birthing problems with most large animals.  That's what he caulked it up to.  I'm sure the draught affects many things in ways we would never guess.  Funny that he brought that up and now there is an article and a thread concerning that.  Would have never imagined draught would cause such problems.


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## SkyWarrior (Jan 30, 2013)

I have problems with administering antibiotics routinely to animals.  Yes, if the animal is definitely sick, but such a routine shot is bound to cause more resistant bugs and make your goat less resistant to bacteria.

I'm disappointed with our government allowing infected feed to go to our animals.  Might explain some of my birds' deaths.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 4, 2013)

SkyWarrior said:
			
		

> I have problems with administering antibiotics routinely to animals.  Yes, if the animal is definitely sick, but such a routine shot is bound to cause more resistant bugs and make your goat less resistant to bacteria.
> 
> I'm disappointed with our government allowing infected feed to go to our animals.  Might explain some of my birds' deaths.


I agree. My oldest doe (4) aborted and the vet and I couldn't figure out why. I am purchasing 3 more does and the breeder told me that the UT Vet had said many people are having such problems. I have never heard of fermented feed and am wondering why it was suggested and if I should switch. My does currently get Milk Enhancer, Alfalfa pellets, and some reg goat feed (DH bought wrong bag). 2 of the does I am purchasing are pregnant and I don't want any more abortions. I am in TN and we haven't seen any sign of the drought. Who is the fermented food for? Meaning, everyone, pregnant does only, milkers?


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