# SICK AGAIN!  My baby was vomiting, coccidia tx dosage needed...



## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

And I'm not even sure if it is one or both, I raced up to the house to type this in.

I have the two little ones in a stall overnight, one is on a bottle and one is being gradually weaned from her mama.

The walls, bedding, water bucket, and babies are all covered in diarrhea.  The younger, Plum, (12 weeks old today) wouldn't take her bottle, and her face was covered in poo.  The older, Peach, (almost 14 weeks) didn't get up, but that is not completely unusually.

I won't have access to a car until 10:30.  I can all my dh and have him pick something up at TSC on his way home.  How do I determine what I need first?  They both seemed to be fine yesterday.

I think Plum's bottle last night was a bit on the warm side.  She wasn't as quick as she usually was.  Can that have anything to do with it?


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

Is it diarreah or is it puke?  When my little one was throwing up the walls, her face and her body were covered with this green stuff.

I gaver her a baking soda drench which seemed to help settle her - if it's not scours then maybe you could try the baking soda (or try that anyway as it doesn't hurt to try)?

I would think he should pick up scour halt when he goes to the store.

Does she have a temp?

Good luck and I'll keep thinking of ideas for you!


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## jodief100 (Jul 27, 2010)

I doubt the warm bottle had anything to do with it.  

I would start immediatly on a regime for Coccidosis and support for diarreha, scour halt , probios and eletrolytles, etc.  I havn't got my notes handy but a quick search here will find the rest of the treatment.  If the eyes are white or  light pink add in slow dose treatment for worms (safeguard and redcell for several days before hitting them with something hard).  Depending on your situation a fecal would be a great idea if you can.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

I didn't think of puking....I think she is puking, she must be.  I just cleaned her up and it is her mouth and chin that are the crustiest and her bottom is perfectly clean, as are her inner thighs.  

Her eyelids are pink.  I will try to get a temp.  I put the other doeling with her mother and she nursed vigorously, and has no green stuff on her face.  

The stall looks like it needs to be hosed.  I'm running back out to clean it and observe Plum.  She will be very upset to be locked in alone.  Should I put her with the herd or lock her up?  I am weighing stress with isolation and rest.  

I have to go get my dog who had surgery yesterday.  That will take at least three hours.


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

Good luck with everyone (even the dog!)

If it was puke, it may be that she ate something poisonous (sound familiar to what you told me??).  The baking soda drench worked wonders for my doeling - I didn't measure anything to be honest, just made something that easily squirted out the drench gun or syringe and gave her about 6 ml.  I repeated that the next time she started throwing up and also gave her mineral oil (about 3 ml) just in case she couldn't pass what was messing her up.  She was 8 wks old when I did the mineral oil.

I also hit her up with B complex, probios and kept pepto on hand (but didn't use the pepto) just in case.

I didn't separate her because I didn't think it was anything contageous and (maybe luckily) no one else got sick.  If you wanted to separate her for just the day and see how she does, maybe that's the way to go.

Her puke really wasn't foul smelling, either, sort of sweet.  Diarreah, IMO, would make ME puke.....


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## ()relics (Jul 27, 2010)

treat both kids for coccidiosis.  The best is sulfadimethoxine 12.5% dosed at 1cc per 5# for 4 days in a row, if you can't get this specific drug most sulfa type drugs will also work.  I would do nothing else.  See if the kid reacts to the cocci treatment.  If it is a run-in with coccidiosis you will see the effects of the drug almost right away.  Make sure the kids have plenty of water, you could add an electrolyte to it just to lessen the effects of the dehydration they may suffer from.  Red Cell is an option but I don't use it....probios is also useful after you finish your cocci treatment.....If its coccidiosis your sick goat will look markedly better soon after its first dose of medicine....If the sulfa drug does not clear the problem up then you will need to look elsewhere...I would keep the doe kids seperate until they regain some strength...JMO...


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## helmstead (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeeps.

I would treat it like a frothy bloat.  Get about a tbsp of baking soda in her (drench this very carefully), about 3-6 cc of oil - veggie, canola...whatever you have on hand.  Do you have C&D antitoxin?  I'd give up to 10 cc of this orally.  Then I'd add an antacid to coat stomachs, liquid, about 3 cc.

I also hit them with B Complex injected any time there's any sort of issue.  3 cc, you can't overdose this, up to 3 times a day to avoid polio.

Withhold feed of any kind for 24 hrs.


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 27, 2010)

I hope they respond well. Seems like these things always happen in the WORST timing. 

I'm not even going to try to offer treatment suggestions since you all know more about it than I do, but I just wondered if she's too distressed at being alone if you can put the other doeling back in with her? If she's not contagious, great!  If she is, the other is likely already exposed?  With going through various "stuff" with my goats, it seems like being separated is harder on them than the treatment or the sickness itself, and I wonder if they haven't recovered better because of being calmer, having their buddy with them?

I'm glad in my little herd that each one has at least two others they do well with, so I can mix them around. 

I do hope you get it sorted out and your doelings are doing great again soon!


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## cmjust0 (Jul 27, 2010)

Ok...with it covering her face and the walls, it sounds like she's definitely slinging her cud.  Something's bad in her rumen, and she's getting it out.

Is it possible that she got into something poisonous yesterday?  Is she running a fever at all?


Bear in mind that I've *never personally dealt with this* so I'm just kinda pondering..


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

OK, dh will be home with the car in about a half hour and I can go to TSC.

Here are the updated observations:

It is not scours.  It is puke.  The older doeling is absolutely normal and running and jumping around.  

I put them out and the puker went immediately to curl up in the sun.  I let her stay there while I cleaned up the stall.  Then since she seemed to need the extra warmth, I locked up the two pygmies (one is the meanie who will bonk her without warning) and left the doelings out with their mothers, who only bonk gently when over-provoked.  Plum is in no condition to provoke.

I saw her burp up a cud and chew it....twice!!!  She hasn't vomited since....well, I don't really know since when.  Some of it on the walls of the stall looked on the fresher side, some was drying.

She got up after 15-20 minutes and spent some time at the water tub.  I started counting swallows and stopped at 25 (not all at once.)  The cool water in her belly seemed to make her a bit uncomfortable, and she made some noises....ip-ip-ip-ip.....sort of the noise she makes when I hand feed her minerals in case she doesn't get a chance at the FOUR bins I fill for six goats.  

Sooooo.....does this change recommendations?  In my panic, my first thought this morning was scours-and-she's-gonna-die, but now it looks like maybe the crisis is waning....I'd hate to hit her with antibiotics and upset her baby rumen if it was simply a plant she ate.  I will be inspecting my pasture.

Frothy bloat....her sides are thin with the almost empty rumen, and she has/had no signs of froth in/on her mouth, nor in the puke all over the stall.    ????  Tell me more?


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

I'll suggest to go the route I did when my doeling threw up.  Hit her with a baking soda drench, B complex, probios and wait and see.

My little doeling did the same thing - she just looked sick, eyes were tired, she was up with her sister, but not as frisky as normal.  I did see her burp up a cud and chew it, but it wasn't near normal (or what I would think is normal for her, anyway)

She would go through a throw up session, then be fine.

Have you seen her pee or poop?  How about that temp?


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

cm, just saw your post.  That is what I am starting to think, now that I have calmed down a little and can think. 

My pasture is pathetic with the drought and I haven't mowed like I usually do.  I usually cut it with a scythe and pull bad plants that creep in along the edges.  I haven't done my patrol lately, and we had a lot of rain and a lot of sudden growth in the past few days.  I will be exploring the edges for mountain laurel, my worst enemy.  I occasionally get a tiny bit of yew, but it is extremely rare.  I think she'd be dead if she got some yew.

They do get free choice hay all night but those green leaves sure are tempting.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

Glenolam, my dh just got in and he and I will go out and take her temp now.  I will bring baking soda to drench her and some b-complex.  Be right back.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 27, 2010)

She was slinging cud...now she's chewing cud...and she made her own way over to drink water.

She's clearly 'with it' right now, meaning she's not out of her mind with fever or anything like that.  If they're very feverish at all, they usually don't chew cud and drink water.  Having said that, I wouldn't suspect this to be the result of bacteria..  I'd lean toward it having been a toxic plant or some other toxic substance.  

That's purely speculation, though..  

I'd keep a close eye on her..  She just horked up everything in her rumen, so she's way empty.  If it were me, I'd offer her some really nice hay...and probably Probios, too.  Probios is pretty harmless stuff, and I can't really think of a much _better_ time to use it than when a goat just evacuated the contents of its rumen (including the friendly flora)..  

But, again...I've never dealt with this..  I'm just thinking of things that would make sense TO ME. 



ETA:  B-Complex and baking soda wouldn't hurt, either...  

Something else I'd probably be thinking about right now is banamine..  I know that might not make a whole lot of sense, but my thinking is that if she ate something toxic...that means there were toxins.  And where there are toxins, there's typically an immune response.  And when you have an immune response to toxins in the rumen, you might find yourself looking at rumenitis.  

Might...maybe...I dunno.

Banamine's not as harmless as bicarb, b plex, or probios...but if it were me, I'd personally do it just to ease any impending inflammation.

_That's just me, though.._


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

My bet is that she doesn't have a temp at all, either.

Having gone through this (or I am assuming this is what I went through), I can say that baking soda and B complex helped.  Mineral oil (or veggie, corn, canola, etc) also helped.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

Temp 103.3.  She jumped at the gate when I approached (yay!)  She followed me on my pasture patrol and ate 4 maple leaves, 2 goldenrod tops, 1 grape leaf, and a bite of grass.  For her, that is mildly interested in food, as she is normally a voracious eater, especially if I am picking the hard-to-reach stuff for her.

My pasture patrol yeilded nothing, but she could've eaten whatever grew.  Also, a neighbor cut a bunch of brush right alongside one corner of my fence where the goats could possibly reach through and pull some stuff in.  I don't know what is in there, but they can't reach anything now.

I gave her probios, b-complex, and a little baking soda.  I have to go get the dog now, so anything you can write I will check the minute I get home, before dh takes off with the car again.  Today is my day off, so I can drive dh to work and take the car if need be.


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> She followed me on my pasture patrol and ate 4 maple leaves, 2 goldenrod tops, 1 grape leaf, and a bite of grass.


Did you write this down in a notebook? 

Seriously, though, I'm glad she's doing well.  Keep your eye on her just in case she goes through it again.  Mine lasted a total of 4 days between the 2 times it happened to her.  Hasn't happened in well over a month.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My brain tends to store strange things.  And doesn't store some things it needs to!


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

Kind of like how I remember every stupid song I listen to on the radio, but can't remember that I'm supposed to pick up bread at the store or grab "that" hose instead of "this" one?!?


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## cmjust0 (Jul 27, 2010)

If she's up, moving, drinking, and eating at all, she's probably not in too bad a'shape.  I'd say she got something bad, horked it up, and now she's recovering.  Supportive therapy is good.  

I'd still be a bit concerned about the potential for rumenitis, though...and I'd be thinking about banamine.  

That's mostly because rumenitis it was something that crossed my radar for the very first time the other day, and usually when something crosses my radar for the first time, I see it a couple more times before it decides to leave me alone.

I just don't want _your_ goatie to be the second account of rumenitis I run across.


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## glenolam (Jul 27, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I'd still be a bit concerned about the potential for rumenitis, though...and I'd be thinking about banamine.
> 
> That's mostly because rumenitis it was something that crossed my radar for the very first time the other day, and usually when something crosses my radar for the first time, I see it a couple more times before it decides to leave me alone.
> 
> I just don't want _your_ goatie to be the second account of rumenitis I run across.


Are you _sure_ that's why?  It's not because you're an ignorant hillbilly who sticks his goats with anything and everything given the chance?   (you know I'm joking!)


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 27, 2010)

This is why I keep activated charcoal on hand and don't hesitate to give it if I suspect something toxic was ingested.   Glad she's doing better!


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

So, I'm back, and about to change my clothes and run out there.  What are the symptoms of rumenitis?  I have banamine paste for horses...will this do and what dosage if necessary?  I'd have to weigh her, but I'd guess around 30 lbs.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 27, 2010)

The case of rumenitis I'm familiar with was discovered upon necropsy, and was the result of someone having fed a goat a bellyfull of corn.  Acidosis -> rumenitis -> death.  

Since this was just me thinking in terms of a 'just in case/prolly wouldn't hurt' type of deal, I'm not sure I'd go messing around with oral banamine...I have no clue whether that's even appropriate for goats, nor do I know what the dosage would be.

Not even sure what the symptoms of rumenitis would be, but it's basically an inflamed rumen..  I guess I'd just be watching for her to act like her rumen's bothering her...anorexia, maybe some continued cud-slinging, depression, teeth-grinding, etc.  

Purely speculative, though.  

Like I said...I was just thinking that if you had some injectable banamine, it probably wouldn't hurt.  

Which is to say...never mind, 'cuz you don't have any injectable banamine..


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

She is much brighter and was chewing a cud just now.  My dad, who is working on the pig fencing in the back part of the pasture, said both doelings followed him out there (several hundred feet from the barn) and then Peach realized that her mom didn't come with them, so she turned and ran back.  Plum followed at a good run.  She is not the type to follow anyone back to the barn unless she wants to go there, too.  She will stay in the pasture with any company, even one chicken or one turkey....or my dad.  So I take this as a very good sign.  She is alert and curious.

I still smooch her even though she smells baaaaaaad in spite of the damp towel bath she got earlier.   I loooooves my leetle girrrrl.   

I will try to get her to take a small bottle, maybe two ounces, and see how it goes.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

She greedily drank the 2 oz of milk, but then it was ip-ip-ip-ip-ip for a few minutes after.  I gave her a little while, then gave her some more probios/b-complex (2 oz of liquid total) and she ip-ip'd for a bit again.  So her tummy is still uncomfortable.

I was able to get fecal samples from both babies and will run them as soon as I have an hour in the house.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Yeeps.
> 
> I would treat it like a frothy bloat.  Get about a tbsp of baking soda in her (drench this very carefully), about 3-6 cc of oil - veggie, canola...whatever you have on hand.  Do you have C&D antitoxin?  I'd give up to 10 cc of this orally.  Then I'd add an antacid to coat stomachs, liquid, about 3 cc.
> 
> ...


Shoot, I somehow missed the "withhold feed" sentence.  Does this include milk?

I could not get the c&d antitoxin but will try calling a few places.  

I have several urgent situations all at once.  I think I will explode....or implode.....if someone....anyone.....doesn't get better FAST.  I only posted about a third of today's anxieties....   I sure wish I had a goat-knowledgable friend to come here and help me.  Sniff.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 27, 2010)

Hopefully things will calm down for you! Nothing like a few problems to put you in overdrive. :/


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## helmstead (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes, that included milk...offer water, maybe a teeny bit of hay.  No milk, no concentrates.


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## mully (Jul 27, 2010)

Check your pasture for milk weed!  This causes green puke in goats when they eat it. Most goats stay away from it but some, especially the young will eat it. Being most of the country was very wet there is lots of milk weed around.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

Sigh....glad I only gave her two ounces....that explains the ip-ip-ip noises.  She is in the stall with her sister for the night.  They have hay and water.  

More baking soda?

NO milkweed.  It has been so dry here.  Someone has been eating a bit of poke, but that has been nibbled on for weeks so I haven't worried about it.  It is impossible to eradicate.


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## helmstead (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, since you put food in there, now you should do the routine again.

I aim for 3-4x a day w/baking soda and oil when I have a kid in tummy crisis.  I hope you find C&D antitoxin soon...once you do, keep in on hand and replenish it as it expires.


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## freemotion (Jul 27, 2010)

I just dosed her again with the oil and baking soda.  No c&d antitoxin to be found.  

When can she have some milk?  She practically climbed up me looking for her bottle just now, but then ip-ip-ip'd when I dosed her.  

Do I count 24 hours from when I fed her this afternoon or from when I found her this morning?  Should I dose her again first thing?  Before/after feeding her?  (If you think I should feed her first thing, that is....)


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## helmstead (Jul 28, 2010)

It's good she's hungry.  The baking soda is gross to them, probably brought about the protests.  You will have to use your better judgement on when to give a bottle again.  Start slow with several small meals, and see how she does.

I've had misc. tummy issues with the bottle kids from bloat to mild entero to constipation.  It usually takes a good 24 hrs for a kid with true tummy issues to GET hungry again after treatment begins...so hopefully she's over her crisis.  When I see a hungry, active kid bright eyed and bushy tailed acting totally normal - that's when I offer milk/pellets again - in moderation.  I continue the treatments for another 24 hrs after I begin feeding to ensure the addition of food doesn't bring on symptoms again.


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## glenolam (Jul 28, 2010)

My doeling who went through this was still nursing mom at the time, so I can't say she did go through a withhold time on milk.  She wasn't too interested in water at that point, either...

I'd hit her again this morning with baking soda just to start her tummy off right and settled, then wait until this afternoon or evening.  If she's doing better, then try a little milk.


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## freemotion (Jul 28, 2010)

She was doing great this morning, and although she protested at the dosing, it didn't make her uncomfortable (ip-ip-ip) so I waited an hour and gave her 2 oz of milk.  She is out with the herd and munched a little hay and went to the pasture and munched a little green stuff....what little they can find.  I am feeding everyone hay right now.  Hopefully, hay fed during the day to the entire herd will make whatever she ate less interesting if she finds it again.

Her stall was spotless, which was what I really wanted to see!


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## glenolam (Jul 28, 2010)

Glad to hear she's doing better!  Hey, one down of several (hopefully!)!!


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## Shiloh Acres (Jul 28, 2010)

Glad to hear it!


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## freemotion (Aug 7, 2010)

Now this morning her poo was clumpy.  This evening, it is very loose.  She is eating and active and bright.  I gave her some B's and probiotics.  She is not on any grain and was weaned from the bottle this week.

I took a sample to run a fecal tonight (need supper first, it is 9 PM and I work the weekends!  I need food!) but hope some of you will see this and offer some support.  Tomorrow is a long work day.  Would you leave her in or out?  The weather is supposed to be lovely.  

I am worried that she will be scouring by morning.  If so, I will need to handle it FAST and get to work.  Ugh.  Final exams are tomorrow and I cannot get out of it.  If things go well at school, I can get out a bit early.  Here's hopin'....


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## ksalvagno (Aug 7, 2010)

I hope your doeling does ok. I would probably PM or email Roll or Helmstead. You could always get some pepto into her but you probably don't want to do too much until you look at that fecal.

Good luck with her.


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## freemotion (Aug 7, 2010)

The fecal showed mostly coccidia.....but I don't know what numbers are "bad" and what are ok.  I am seeing more than I normally do.  I'm thinking it might be coccidia.  Of course it is Saturday night....


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## ()relics (Aug 7, 2010)

...I think I said I would have treated for coccidiosis a week ago....coccidiosis can present itself differently in every animal...But that is just my opinion


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## freemotion (Aug 7, 2010)

Yes, you did, and I appreciated the response.  It seemed to me that with further info, it wasn't coccidia.  She responded to the treatment for frothy bloat.  It seemed most likely that she ate something, most likely a bit of mountain laurel.  Now I think maybe her weakened state made her ripe for coccidia.

I don't understand treating her for coccidia when she was poisoned....please educate me on your thoughts on this.  Would vomiting also be a symptom?

I am not one to use drugs unless it is clearly indicated.  My thoughts are that this leads to drug resistance.  It seemed that the treatment choice was correct at the time.  Thoughts, please.

Also know that I am in tears.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 7, 2010)

If you want to go the drug route, then probably DiMethox if you can get it or Sulmet. I'm pretty sure Sulmet is at TSC but I'm not sure about DiMethox. If you possibly have Corid at home, then you could use that too but I'm not sure of dosage because it is different for goats than I'm used to doing. I believe you give Corid full strength but not sure how many cc's per pound.

If you want to go the herbal route, then I would get her on Golden Seal right away. Probably 1/2cc twice a day. I used the already made tincture though so I'm not sure how much powder to use if you have powder. Do twice a day for 7 days but you must stop after 7 days. I believe that there has to be at least 1 week in between using Golden Seal again.

Cloves work on coccidia but as a prevention. I know my friend gives her goats cloves every day for prevention and Golden Seal when they have a coccidia problem. The cloves is 1 teaspoon a day for a Nigerian Dwarf.


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## freemotion (Aug 7, 2010)

I would love to try the herbal route but have no golden seal.  That will likely be harder to find locally tomorrow than the meds!

I think now that it is both doelings.  I just went out there and it is the larger doeling with the very dirty tush.  I didn't even suspect her of being sick as she was her usual pushy self at evening chores, shoving her sister and running around, trying to get the best bites of everything.

I saw no normal poo in the stall just now, and cleaned it by flashlight and put down fresh straw.  It will be obvious by morning as to who is doing what, I think.  They were both up and curious and hungry just now.

Now I don't know which doeling's fecal exam I ran.  I'll have to assume both are sick with the same thing.  I thought coccidia was a problem in wet weather, and here we are in a drought!


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## ksalvagno (Aug 7, 2010)

Coccidia really can rear its ugly head any time. At least in my experience. I would treat both little ones for coccidia, even if you don't run a fecal on the other one. Especially since they share a stall and hang out together.


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## helmstead (Aug 8, 2010)

I agree that you treated appropriately in the beginning, and that illness set them up.  Kids under 6 months get cocci blooms...it just happens.

_This is why everyone with young goats needs to have a full bottle of DiMethox 40% on hand all the time!_

Do not give Pepto.  If you have SafeGuard, you can begin dosing this daily using it as an antiprotozoal until you can get your hands on some SMZ-TMP or DiMethox or Albon.  CoRid will work, at a very high dose, and TSC does carry that.  Dose the safeguard for at least 5 days.  I would also dose them both up with B Complex and Nutridrench.


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## Roll farms (Aug 8, 2010)

> This is why everyone with young goats needs to have a full bottle of DiMethox 40% on hand all the time!


Amen!  Preach it, Sister Kate! 

No matter how much a natural approach is preferred, a living and healthy goat is the ultimate goal....


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Sigh....for the record, people, I am happy to use meds when needed, I am just not anxious to be throwing meds at myself or my animals at every hiccup.  There is a reason why goats are so weak nowadays, and why hospital surgical suites have had to be permanently shut down......drug resistance.

However, I am not such a silly thing that I won't use any med needed to treat myself or my animals.   And I will completely give up my naive ideals if necessary to have healthy goats.  I'll toss those ideals right in the trash if I find that I can't do otherwise.  The health of my animals comes first.

Ok, hope the record is straight now.  Now everyone please be nice in PM's, too.

Back to our regularly scheduled program:

The doelings are bright and eating and the worst one (according to her messy butt last night) was dropping close-to-normal pellet poo, which was a huge relief.  I was worried that I would wake up to another round of stall-washing and babies coated with stinky goo.  So it seems I have a little time.  Without my microscope, it would have been Monday or Tuesday before I got fecal results from a vet.  So happy I purchased it.

So this morning I will go to TSC and get Corid, if they don't have DiMethox.  Sounds like they don't.  Will the label give me correct dosages?

Where do I get DiMethox if not at TSC, and how about CD anti-toxin, while I'm at it?  What else, if I'm making an order?

Thirty-five years ago my family kept a few dairy goats.  No one ever got sick and died.  No one got minerals or dewormed or medicated feed.  One baby broke her leg and that was the only premature death.  My ideal is to get back to that.  Not that I wouldn't feed minerals or deworm my goats....just sayin'.


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## helmstead (Aug 8, 2010)

TSC usually has CD antitoxin in the fridge.  DiMethox is on backorder last I checked at Jeffers.com, but they still have it at several other online catalogs like Valley Vet and Hoeggers.

CoRid dose, OFF LABEL, undiluted right out of the bottle is 6.25 cc per 25 lbs for 5 days.  You read right.  

Get probios while you're there, and give this daily while they're on the CoRid.

I'm glad they're acting better!  Yes, goats have changed over the years...so we've had to change our husbandry practices.  I'm sorry that some aren't being NICE here...you guys...keep it supportive.  I know many of us have tried the natural route and seen it end in sadness - but I believe it still has its place with those who are willing as freemotion is to pull out the chemical guns to supplement it when needed.

PS Ammonia kills cocci, so you can treat your barn with an ammonia water wash and spray your goat's yard with ammonia to help get your soil loads down.


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Thank you, Kate.  There are so few goats in my suburban area that no one has heard of the anti-toxin at any TSC within an hour's drive.  I called them all.  No DiMethox either.  I could only get the powdered CoRid for calves.  I can make a drench with it but need the goat dosage.  The label gives proportions based on 100 lbs body weight in calves and a five day treatment protocol.

What strength for the ammonia solution?  And when should I wash things down?   After the five day treatment or today and again in five days?

Do I need to treat my adults, who have normal poo but who mingle with the doelings?  And the buckling, who finally has normal poo after his barberpole treatment and is isolated from all the other goats (until planned conjugal visits in December  )

I threw the doelings' soiled bedding into the woods, where no one has access but the occasional hen escapee, rather than on the compost pile.  But they have been turned out with the rest of the herd, so it was probably futile.  Made me feel better, though.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 8, 2010)

PBS Animal Health is usually pretty quick with mailing out orders. If you order before 3pm, they get it on a UPS truck that day. You can order online at www.pbsanimalhealth.com 24/7 or call 800-321-0235 during the week. I got DiMethox 40% from them not too long ago. You can also order the CD Antitoxin.


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## Henrietta23 (Aug 8, 2010)




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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Help!  I called everywhere and couldn't find anything other than the Corid powder.  In searching online for dosage info (labeled for calves) all I found was "don't use Corid, it doesn't work!"  Sheesh.  

So what I need to know it....what is the dosage for goats for Corid, or should I just wait and try to get something else tomorrow?  I found a reference to Albon for dogs and cats (dimethox) that I might get from a vet, although it is somewhat doubtful in this area that one would sell it to me...or I could check at feedstores, but again, in this urban/suburban area, not too many places likely carry large animal meds.

Frustrated!  Worried!!!!!


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## Beekissed (Aug 8, 2010)

> Thirty-five years ago my family kept a few dairy goats.  No one ever got sick and died.  No one got minerals or dewormed or medicated feed.  One baby broke her leg and that was the only premature death.  My ideal is to get back to that.  Not that I wouldn't feed minerals or deworm my goats....just sayin'.


Now, don't lop off my head for asking you goat folks a few questions, as I sincerely want to know and am not trying to stir a pot.... just have been concerned for some time and it would ease my mind if I could know the answers to these questions.  

But the above observation is my general experience also...my family had goats over a couple of generations and they were tough, hardy, easy care things that wouldn't have died if they ate rat poison.  

Most of the threads on this forum are about goats, so I'm aware that the goat folks outnumber all the rest and its just a matter of averages....but there seems to be an extreme amount of health problems with all these goats!

Having said that, I guess my questions are these:  

Why in the world would anyone want to keep an animal that is so fraught with health issues resulting in constant worry and financial loss?

And, if you are trying to improve the strain of goat genetics, why not eliminate the goats that cannot thrive without constant intervention?  

I know that goat people develop a personal relationship with their goats, as do sheeple....but its sheer agony to watch you all go through this time and again.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 8, 2010)

Can you place an order online from some place? You can get the DiMethox from various online stores.

Bee - I think things have changed drastically over the years with parasites. I think in general all the chemical dewormers have created super parasites that now affect animals much more than it did even 20 years ago. Also, many people are keeping larger herds than people did long ago on smaller acreage (or just keeping animals in general on smaller acreage even if it is a small herd) and that also has changed the dynamics of things. Not to mention that all the chemicals that we have put on our soil has probably done something for this too. Not sure what the answer is. I guess goat people are no different than sheep people and just keep going. Honestly, I wonder why anyone stays in any type of livestock business but I have to admit that I love my animals and enjoy having them.

Look at how unhealthy people are and look today. My DH and I were looking at pictures from the early 40's. While faces looked tired, people looked healthy. Not a fat person in any picture. Kids knew how to garden and knew where their meat and vegetables came from. Look at our lifestyle. Kids don't even know where their food comes from. I think that spills into everything including animals. Just give a pill to get rid of/hide the symptoms of things and build up super bacteria, viruses and parasites.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Aug 8, 2010)

and to be fair....

my good neighbors are having TERRIBLE problems with their goats - first time in years of having them. and their 4H leader (had goats for years and years) is also having a terrible time with them....as well as other folks in their club.  

we all think it has to do with the weather.  and cocci tends to bloom in hot and wet which we have all been dealing with. 

so as always.. we are all in this together.

Bee - i haven't had one problem with the goats that the 4H kids couldnt solve. i dunno if i've just been lucking or if i've been doing something right. our motto around here is "get out there and free range or be hungry" and "if the 4H kids cant fix it then we'd better the gun and a shovel." if they cant make it then they cant make it. 

so far so good and those silly goats have more than paid for themselves so we are totally on the upside as far as finances go. we also havent sunk a ton of money into them (we dont show or breed) so that helps. 

maybe we are the exception but so far so good. and for us.. 

i think one thing that may be to your  (very valid) point/ question is that goats seemed to have stopped being livestock and started being pets... and maybe thats why there is so much hubbub????

i dunno. hum. i'm gonna think on it while i go squeeze them goats.


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Bee, I hear ya.  Believe me, I hear ya.  I love goats, for some masochistic reason.  Until this year's babies, I've had rescues in the past 8 years that survived neglect.  When one had a baby (the one that died young due to pnumonia, born in the  dead of winter to a starved doe) and I started milking her...at first to keep her production up while the baby was hanging on and fighting for life, and then because she was gaining weight nicely and I wanted to have the milk....I was thoroughly hooked.  So I bred two, thinking I had some tough lines.

Well, I now think it has to do with the superbugs and the reduced nutrients in the soil and in the feed available for purchase.  Weaker genetics may have a role, as my buck was purebred...but trouble-free for the months that I had him.  

I would like to produce stronger goats ultimately, and probably will, but meanwhile, I have to help them through the troubles and trials until I figure it out.  What is major drama for me is likely a blip on the radar for an experienced goat farmer.  They probably see the signs, pull out the meds, dose, and go to bed and sleep soundly.  I see gloppy poo and I panic, mostly from reading how they go from dog poo to dead it seems.

I suspect (hope is more like it) that I caught this episode much sooner than most inexperienced people like myself would because I have a microscope.  The two doelings are eating, active, and back to almost pelleted poo.  So I suspect that without the 'scope, I would not consider coccidia until they were very sick.  Then I would post here and a few days later they would be dead.  

Another problem is the lack of knowledgable goat vets.  This makes me, and some others here, very reluctant to call the vet and spend hundreds of dollars ($250-300 is a minimum bill for anything around here) and still have no answers.  

But I still don't know how much Corid to give them.  So they still are untreated.

I guess I will see what I can order, but we are so far from all those companies, it will be a few days before I get anything.  And most meds can't be shipped to MA, so that is why I try TSC, because I can pick stuff up in CT.  That is how I get my vaccinations and injectible dewormers and needles and such.  They won't ship to me.  Sometimes an empoyee isn't paying attention and an order goes through.  So I'll try.


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Oh, and financially, I am so sure I am ahead of the game, even with my pets/rescues who will be here until they die.  Of course, they don't.  They just eat and poop.

Just with the grocery savings on milk, cheese, ice cream, yogurt, etc, we are ahead financially, in spite of the troubles.  I even sold my buck last year for what I paid for him, so breeding the two does cost me a little hay and grain.  And goats eat almost nothing (after owning horses for many, many years!)

I have some woods I hope to browse my girls in next year, but there is a lot of metal trash in there so it is not safe yet....old fencing, junk, etc. from previous owners with no respect for the earth.  I have to clean it up in the spring before the undergrowth takes over, but you know what spring is like on a homestead!


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## ()relics (Aug 8, 2010)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> And, if you are trying to improve the strain of goat genetics, why not eliminate the goats that cannot thrive without constant intervention?


that should be the ultimate goal of any breeder of any species of animal...A twofold problem exsists with goats...
1    people that have no business owning and breeding goats, do if fact, own and breed them....Because they are the cheapest "farm animal" to own.
2    responsible breeders, again of any species of animal, have the duty to harshly cull the weak and genetically inferior animals...and NOT  USE THEM FOR BREEDING STOCK...again refer to problem #1...And by cull I mean SLAUGHTER....not sell them to your neighbor so they can use them as breeding stock...again refer to problem #1....
...many a full blooded billy has worn the wether's band  around here and sub-par doelings face a similar end....If I wouldn't use them myself;   they go to slaughter....PERIOD....BTW if you run across my tattoo be sure you are looking at a quality animal...A quality FARM animal...if you want a pet get a dog


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## Beekissed (Aug 8, 2010)

Well, that explains a lot and it sure is a shame that an animal that was once considered extremely hardy and could eat anything without getting sick is now a problem to raise.  

I guess it is the same around here with the wool breeds of sheep in the area....I was advised against getting sheep by everyone with which I spoke.  All the old farmers told me that sheep are born, stand up and immediately look around for a way to die.  

Knowing that...or at least feeling that way...it is a wonder to me also why anyone would get into sheep, especially in a big way.  

The farmer I buy mine from is selling every sheep this week because he had over 25 head killed by a family of bears and he can't keep this from happening.  

Sorry, free...didn't mean to hijack your thread but I always have the need to ask "why" and to understand....got a thirst for knowledge!  

Back to your goaties and your Corid problem..... can't wait to see what you find.


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## Roll farms (Aug 8, 2010)

Found this in another thread....regarding corid dosage:
*
Not even close.  Remember I said extrememly high doseage?  It's 6 1/4 cc per 25 lb, used undiluted right from the bottle, for 5 days.*

That's for the corid liquid 9.6% solution....does the package say how to mix it w/ water to achieve that strength???
(ie, if it says "mix w/ 100 gallons of water to reach 9.6%...maybe you could mix 1/100 of the package w/ 1 gallon of water to reach the right strength....?)


In regards to the questions Bee posted...

#1.
A) If you're 'doing it right'...they're NOT a financial hardship or worry...  
I haven't lost a goat in years....and the last one was to an accident...which they are prone to....other than worry about "How can they find a way to break a leg today...?" I don't 'worry' about them.

I spend more money on feed / hay than I do on meds...the meds I buy are preventative for the most part (other than my emergency stash for when they get injured)...and other than routine care, good pasture, and pen maintenance / clean up....They're not much work.

(We've had horses, llamas, alpacas, sheep, rabbits, pigs, cattle, and the goats are the only ones who've made it long term because, for our situation, they're the ones who fit us the best.)

B) Some of the folks here either buy goats and THEN wonder about what to do with / for them or buy them from unscrupulous breeders or sale barns....so you can see the exact same symptoms / questions posted over and over but it's generally the same situation...

"I'm new, my goat is ______.  HELP!"

#2.
I'm also of the opinion that raising dairy goats in confined situations has weakened the gene pool...and that trying to raise Boer goats (from dry Africa, where they browse thousands of acres) in a 50 x 200' pen has helped create stronger bugs and weaker animals.

Our first goats never got a shot, medicine, special mineral, etc...but they weren't fancy, just Nubs I bought from a lady down the road...who'd been breeding them for 20 years as back yard milkers.

I bought some pedigreed goats later on...and then...pedigreed Boer goats....and thus began the education of Kim on all the different ailments and illnesses goats can have / get / live with / die from.

Another thing to note....30 years ago, CAE and CL weren't really blips on the radar....so nobody freaked out / tested / etc.  You see several posts related to these 'new' problems that the 'hardy herds of the past' didn't get.

We do breed for hardier stock here w/ our herd.  If I have to deworm a goat a lot....she's gone.  If they have foot problems...*poof*  
I sell them to pet homes or for food.  (Can't bring myself to eat one, but I don't mind selling them to be eaten.)

I won't say they shouldn't be owned as pets, b/c our first goats were pets...but if you're A) unwilling to learn / provide proper care before getting the animal(s) and B) unable financially to provide said proper care, then you do not need them.

If the only place you can *afford* to get a goat from is a sale barn....you do not need goats, and I will stand by that comment until I die.

(I'm talking about the people who are too cheap to invest in good stock, or the folks who don't have enough money for vet bills if needed, not the spur-of-the-moment, "he's cute, let's get him" types...that happens to the best of us...hence the Patagonian Cavy and Prairie Dog I have as pets...)

Dewormer can be expensive....hay can be expensive in a drought year...a vet call for a stuck kid can be expensive....these things happen and will happen when it's the most inconvenient...it's Murphy's Goat Law.

50% of the posts you see could probably have been avoided if the proper preventative care had been done or if the proper research had been done before buying the goats to begin with....and that's not a slam on anyone....nobody's born knowing everything and you can't help what the previous owner did / didn't do that they should / shouldn't have.

Being willing to learn, and the WILL to do what's needed...are the main 'requirement' for goat ownership.  JMHO....


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## Shiloh Acres (Aug 8, 2010)

Free, just wanted to say I'm glad it sounds like they are doing better, and I hope you get the info and supplies you need to proceed. I hope they continue to improve. 

I SO get what some of you are saying. I don't believe in pulling out meds and dosing every sniffle. I use mostly natural products myself and herbs, and honestly myself and my family have been much healthier for it, IMO, compared to when I used to go the more conventional route. It's not that I think medicine is evil, I just consider not the first resort in pretty much 90% of what I face, and I usually am able to treat without it for both humans and animals. An emergency situation is different, and where life is at stake I would be most likely to hit it hard quickly. And be thankful that I get a good response, thanks maybe in part to not having overused it. 

I often asked myself the same question. How is it that my grandparents kept animals without medicated feed (or any feed at all in most cases), without wormers, without vets?  And there were few losses or sicknesses?  The worst case I remember was when a hunting dog got snakebit on the nose. He pulled through too, btw. So how come now I'm told I'm asking for trouble to try to raise a chick without medicated feed?

I've gone a much more natural route with most of my animals for years, very successfully. That was my initial goal with the goats too. After just a few months with them, I'm starting to wonder if it's going to be possible. I've even considered a few months of drylot conditions to fight these blasted barberpoles, and there is not much I hate worse than seeing animals on drylot. So no, I probably won't do it, but I wish now I had a lot more fenced acreage for some major pasture rotation. 

Just wanted to sympathize, more than anything. My goats are maybe less medicated than many out there, but I've still had to use antibiotics and wormers in this short time, as well as probiotics and supplements (which I don't mind or count as "meds"). 

Anyway, I'll keep learning. Just have to keep them ALIVE by whatever means in the meantime, sigh.


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Found this in another thread....regarding corid dosage:
> *
> Not even close.  Remember I said extrememly high doseage?  It's 6 1/4 cc per 25 lb, used undiluted right from the bottle, for 5 days.*
> 
> ...


Front of package:  Amprolium 20% soluble powder

Excerpts from the back  (slightly edited so I can get it up here faster):  Drench, 5 day treatment:  3 oz Corid to 1 qt water, one ounce per 100 lbs bodyweight.  =10 mg amprolium per 2.2 lbs bodyweight.

Also:  There are 220 mg of amprolium in every 1 gram of corid powder.

Help me with the math, it is late!


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Idea:  do you know what the multiplier is for that 9.6 % solution?  Is it 3, 4, 5 times the calf dosage?  I could use that as a guage, too, maybe.....


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## Roll farms (Aug 8, 2010)

Math's never gonna be my best subject...*but*

If that's 20% powder, I'll assume the 3 oz to 1 qt equals 20% solution, and that'd be about double the 9.6%, yes?

So mix 3 oz w/ 1 qt water, then dose at half the rate listed for the 9.6% solution.....?

So....3 1/8 cc per 25#.

But...I could be way...WAY off...just trying to help.

edited to fix a typo...not teaspoon, cc...sheesh, we're not making pie.


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

That makes sense, but....I vaguely remember that thread you quoted.  The "extremely high dosage" refered to using more than the label called for....how much more?

*runs off to find thread, realizing that the lack of spellcheck will make it extrememly easy to find...


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

Found it: 





> helmstead wrote:
> aggieterpkatie wrote:
> Dosage for 9.6% Corid (5 day treatment, not 21 day prevention) is 1 mL per 21 lbs of body weight daily for 5 days.
> 
> ...


Hmm, that copy/paste came out funny.  Well.  It seems like it is about 6x the label dosage....ok, before I google it, is a cc and an ml the same?  Sheesh.  I learned metrics decades ago...

ETA:  According to Wiki, they are the same....cc and ml, that is.


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## freemotion (Aug 8, 2010)

3 x the label dosage since it is double the strength....

I'd better sleep on this!


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## helmstead (Aug 8, 2010)

You're on the right track.  The solution from powder will not be shelf stable, so mix as little as you can manage the math on at a time (maybe a pint?).  Keep it in the fridge, and toss after a week.

Now...go to BED!


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## glenolam (Aug 9, 2010)

Hey free - Sorry you're having problems....I have 12.5% DiMethox on hand - a whole extra bottle at that and I know I live a bit far from you, but if you wanted to meet somewhere in the late afternoon/evening (I work until 4:30) you can have the bottle.  I know you've spent a lot of time/energy with the CoRid stuff, so sorry if this is really late in posting, but I find I'm rarely on the computer when I'm home...  PM me if you want it.

Good luck - I hope your girls pull through!


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## freemotion (Aug 9, 2010)

Just tried to call dh, who is working in Newington this morning, but he is not answering.  I have to go in the opposite direction, then he is back in Newington to teach tonight...but won't get home until 10 or 11 PM.  I just got in from checking the doelings and I think one, Peach, needs treatment to start this morning.  I will start with the Corid as soon as he gets home to help (I need to weigh them) but thank you!  If the Corid doesn't work, I may take you up on that.  However, I should have a shipment here soon anyways, along with the cd&t anti-toxin.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 9, 2010)

Not to be a d*ck, but... 



			
				freemo said:
			
		

> The fecal showed mostly coccidia.....but *I don't know what numbers are "bad"* and what are ok.  I am seeing more than I normally do.  I'm *thinking* it *might* be coccidia.  Of course it is Saturday night....


...



			
				freemo said:
			
		

> The *doelings are bright and eating* and the worst one (according to her messy butt last night) was dropping *close-to-normal pellet* poo, which was a huge relief.


...really not sure I see a problem here.  

You had a doeling who got a scour, but she was still bright and alert..  You ran a fecal and saw some coccidia oocysts, but you aren't even sure if it was a *pathogenic level* of oocysts to begin with, which means you can't definitively say it was coccidiosis to begin with.

Then she improved...like, by the next day.  

Had that doeling been here, I would have thought...oh, looks like she's scouring...seems OK though...I'll check on her again tonight.  

If she was still scouring that night...oh, she's still scouring...I'll check on her in the morning.

If they're scouring, and it's a green or brownish-green scour, and they're up and bright and alert and act more or less normally, I'll watch one go like that for a couple of days before I really even start to be concerned.

This is provided they're not BRAND NEW BABIES or very, very young, of course.  I'm just talking kid, with a little meat on their bones and way started on hay and grain and grazing/browsing, etc.  Weaning age and up, I guess...

Having said that, if I were you, the very first thing I'd do right now is STOP FREAKING OUT.  

Then, go to one of the catalog supply houses and find DiMethox.  Order it -- either the 40% inj. or the 12.5% solution.  Wait two to three days.  When it comes in, put them both on whatever amount of it gets you to about 25mg/lb.  Do that for about 5 days.

Wait about a month.

Do it again.

Keep doing that until they're about half-grown and/or it gets cold.

Now...if, in the next three days, someone starts a black scour with blood and shreds of epithelial tissue...see a vet...but I *REALLY* don't think that's going to happen, given the improvement.


Just sayin'.


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## freemotion (Aug 9, 2010)

Don't freak out???  You don't know me! 

The bigger doeling (about 15 weeks, huge) was very slow and quiet this morning and back to very gloppy poo.  I saw her drop some.  So I will assume that the smaller doeling (about 14 weeks, delicate and ribby) was the one who left the slightly clumped pellets in the stall last night.  No one has scoured per say, but they started clumpiness on Saturday so this is day three.  

They are both lying down more than usual but it is very hot again.  They both gobble down leaves that I offer and are both eating hay.  Neither gets grain yet.  The smaller doeling will start getting grain once this is resolved.

I am trying to get the Corid measured out.  The gas installer showed up on the wrong day this morning and I went with it, wanting my stove hooked up.  DH just got home and we are running out now to weigh both girls.  I'll check back one more time before I dose them.

I am inclined to dose them before it gets any worse, as I've run fecals before and hardly ever see any coccidia at all.  So if not pathogenic, definitely on the rise.  Both girls were weaned this week, so some stress there, and the little one as you know was vomiting last week.

Of course, I may change my mind in the next five minutes and decide to wait a few days!  Sheesh!


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## cmjust0 (Aug 9, 2010)

What color is the poo?


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## freemotion (Aug 9, 2010)

Let me check my shoe.....Poo is brownish, and gets blacker as it gets closer to pellets.

Smaller doeling, Plum, is about 50 lbs.  Bigger doeling, Peach, is about 65+ pounds.  I had a harder time holding her, so weighed her twice, and that is approximate.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 9, 2010)

Ok, so they're both just clumpy right now though...right?  Nobody's pooping streams or anything like that?

And what does this mean...."blacker as it gets closer to pellets"?

Are you saying it's improving?...like, moving toward pellets and darkening toward black in color?


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## freemotion (Aug 9, 2010)

I painstakingly measured out the Corid powder and mixed up a cup, did more math today than in all of high school, and still did not dose anyone.

All poo looked much better when I let them out of the stall this evening.  Peach is being weaned and I haven't cross-fenced my field yet, so the babies take turns being locked in while Peach's mom is out and vice versa.  So the doelings were in the stall from 2-7 PM, then out for a couple of hours.  There was no liquid poo in the stall, only clumpy poo and almost-pellets.

The softer the poo, the lighter the shade of brown.  The more pelleted it gets, the closer it gets to normal black berries.

I suspect the bigger doeling is responsible for the softer poo, as there was another big one outside the stall door when I went to put them back in.  It was clumpy on one end and got softer as it got to the other end...of the same turd.  So she is going from one end of the spectrum to the other...not all the way, it never got worse than thick pudding...within a few hours, then back again.

All this talk about poo....we need a glossary with photos! 

So I am now thinking....maybe I should keep a close eye on things and let resistance develop?  The goats, not the coccidia, which I don't want to develop resistance by over-medicating....  Or am I playing with fire?

Who says start dosing tonight (I'm ready!) and who says wait?


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## helmstead (Aug 9, 2010)

"developing" a resistant herd of goats takes YEARS.  I'd do a formal count on the slide...if you see more than 200 per slide, treat.  Then after 7 days, do another fecal and see if it worked.

Cocci is kinda like parvo in that it damages the intestinal wall.  You can pick a 'cocci baby' out of a herd pretty easily - they're poor keepers for the rest of their lives when they've managed to survive goatlinghood harboring high cocci loads.  

You won't always see screaming scours with cocci, it can be doing damage to your youngsters and you don't even realize it.  It can even cause constipation...so...get that fecal done and go from there.


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## freemotion (Aug 9, 2010)

Makes sense, thanks.  Poop-pickin' first thing tomorrow.  My dad is still shaking his head after having to open the gates for me when I saw the doelings (earlier this year) poop right in front of me, a rare thing, and I shot my hand out and caught a handful of berries from each.  He had to open gates and doors all the way into my kitchen and get a couple of baggies from the cupboard for me, too.  He's a farmboy, in the days before fecals and dewormers, but there is a hint of pride when he tells the story to unsuspecting city people...


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## helmstead (Aug 9, 2010)

Reminds me of my tech days, following dogs around waiting for a urine sample.  Ah, fun times.  

All I have to do to make mine poop is put them on the stanchion hahaha


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## Roll farms (Aug 9, 2010)

I agree w/ Kate on the 'cocci kids' thing...They just never catch up / thrive like kids who never suffered from it.

Our smallest Nub doe is our oldest...one of the few survivors of our first serious bout w/ cocci.  She kids / milks fine, but looks like a large mini Nub.  

The damage can be done well before they're to the bloody scour stage.  If it's there, I'd treat now.

Good luck!


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## freemotion (Aug 10, 2010)

Sigh, this is somewhat confusing.  I was able to see both doelings poop this morning, and just ran the fecals.  They were both "good," with barely any cocci and a few barberpoles, and a sprinkling of this and that...so few of the others that I didn't concern myself with them.

Totals:  For Plum, stomach worms in the 50's and cocci around 10.

For Peach, similar numbers, maybe just a few more cocci, closer to 20.

Both doelings poo was very close to normal this morning, with just a slight bit of moisture.  Peach's was not clumpy, maybe....clingy?   Need that pictorial poo glossary!

I will run another fecal tomorrow, but unless someone has a good argument, I see no need to medicate yet.  It was more likely something they ate.  My pasture is pathetic, so unpalatable things may be getting more palatable.  I will go for a walk and pick more goldenrod and grapevines, the only thing that is still green (sort of) here now.

Yes?  No?


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## cmjust0 (Aug 10, 2010)

10 oocysts?  Really?  Really?

:/


(    )

I think I mentioned something before about STOP FREAKING OUT.


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## helmstead (Aug 10, 2010)

Definately NOT cocci then.  I'd give them some Probios, must be something they're eating.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 10, 2010)

Your case may be entirely different but I just wanted to throw this out there.  I have a nubian doe who had clumpy poop for WEEKS after I brought her home.  We wormed her aggressively, gave probios, this, that, the other and STILL clumpy poop.  It drove me crazy.  

I finally figured out that all I needed to do was decrease her grain ration a bit.  At the time we brought her home she was pretty lean and in an effort to put condition on her we were giving her apparently more than she could handle.  We decreased her grain and increased her alfalfa pellet ration (since we were trying to put weight on her) and almost instantaneously the problem was resolved.  

She's lactating now and eating a TON and sure enough on days she's had excess grain she gets clumpy.  It's totally predictable.  Now we're trying to balance keeping her in good condition and keeping her poo relatively normal but I don't worry too much anymore.  I just give her a little extra time to browse and it's back to normal.

Again, this may not have any bearing on your situation whatsoever; just wanted to share because sometimes we think it's one thing and it turns out to be something entirely different!  I just figure it's part of the learning experience.


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## helmstead (Aug 10, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I just figure it's part of the learning experience.


And one never stops learning, these goaties know how to throw us for loops!


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## freemotion (Aug 10, 2010)

It's hard not to freak out when I read so many threads that end the next day with, "Thanks for all your advice, but she didn't make it.  We buried her this morning."  How can I not freak out???  I'm freaking out about freaking out!!!!!  AAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!!!!! 

Thank goodness it's not cocci.  Whew.  I will continue to monitor.  Whenever I do a fecal and it doesn't show what I expect, I think my method is off.  (What?  No cocci?  I must be an idiot!!!  This can't be right!)

So now I have an OPEN package of stupid Corid in my fridge.  But somehow I am happy that my $22 was wasted, because my doelings aren't at death's door.

I do understand about the feed...my buckling is thin and had dog poo for a long time, even after deworming with Ivomec...barberpole....but I was giving him two pounds of alfalfa pellets a day along with free choice hay, and he was neglecting to eat much hay.  I dropped him down to 1.5 pounds a day, and now he eats more hay (alfalfa is not available here yet, soon, though, I hope) and his poop is pellets, mostly.  

The doelings were both weaned last week, and may be searching out more food/nutrients because of it.  I think I will carefully start graining them a bit to see if that helps.  It may keep them from eating whatever they are nibbling on in the pasture.  They have free choice hay.  They probably need more protein to replace the milk.  They are a good size, so I didn't reallly think about that.  If they are both pooping pretty poo tomorrow, I will add an ounce of grain and slowly increase it for them.

I will try not to run fecals tomorrow.  I will try to wait a week.

I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.
I will wait a week before running another fecal exam.

I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out.  I will not freak out!


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