# How would you recommend I get started?



## Doug M (Dec 31, 2018)

Currently I'm living at my parents place so I cant start my farm nor is the land zoned for commercial farming anyways. I'm a recent college graduate fortunate enough not to have any debt from school. However, I don't have any capital to start the farm. 

How would you recommend I start my endeavor? My goal is to buy a few acres and start my farm. I would like to move out west (from Boston) because I don't like the cold and land is probably cheaper out there. 

As I mentioned I don't have any capital or debt. I saw there is government loans for farmers. Should I avoid those?

What are some things you wish you knew when you first started raising animals/farming for a living?

If raising animals is your job, how do you keep it from becoming your hobby? For example I raise 8 chickens but I doubt I could turn a profit on them with my current feeding regime. How do you keep costs in line?

One thing I'm not really familiar with is culling animals. I only had one chicken die on me and we just buried it. My understanding is to make a maximum profit on cow for example eventually they would be sold. Same with pigs, chickens etc. Is it always true you need to sell them for butcher to maximize profit? 

This last one if kind of a stretch but is there anyone that would let me see their cattle farm or if you have a large chicken operation going. I'm familiar with raising a few chickens but raising them for money and running a business is different. 

thank you very much!


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## Baymule (Dec 31, 2018)

@luvmypets is in school, but she and her father raise Mangalitsa hogs and sell them to upscale restuarants in New York City. They started with pet sheep, alpacas and a few goats. 

@farmerjan works in Agriculture, as a milk tester for dairys. She and her son lease land, raise cattle, cut hay and both work at jobs. 

@High Desert Cowboy is in Utah and has a commercial sow and piglet raising operation, supplying piglets to the commercial growers.

@babsbag in California has a goat dairy and is in full swing kidding right now. 

@homesteader Wife and her husband live on 20 acres in Alabama and have a sawmill. They built their own house, and do custom lumber for others. 

Most of us are hobby farmers. Most don't keep up with expenses. We claim ours as a farm, but I would hate to rely on it for our income. We are retired. 

There is a lot of land in our area that is leased for cattle, which means that the cattle raiser doesn't own land, but is a rancher none the less. But he still must have the cattle, horses and cow dogs to work the cows, truck and trailer to move them and pay his help. 

@greybeard is a good one for laying out the facts and smashing the rose colored glasses. He raises cattle also and is on a cattle forum along with farmerjan.


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## farmerjan (Dec 31, 2018)

WOW.  Admire that you want to learn to be a successful farmer.  First thing, GET A JOB ON A FARM.   If you don't want to stay there, then find where you want to go for now.  Get in touch with your local extension service, ag dept at the high school or FFA/4H leader.  Yes you are older than the high school kids.  BUT you need some practical experience.  Find someone that is willing to mentor/teach/employ you and get some real life practical get your hands dirty experience. We look for kids all the time when we need help on the hay wagons making hay in the summer.  Unfortunately, my son and I both work off the farm full time jobs.  We cannot afford to "just farm" with the low prices we are getting for our livestock, and pay rents/leases/mortgages and everything else.  We certainly cannot afford to pay help except for the occasional ones when making hay. 

One that comes to  mind is Joel Salatin in Swope, Va.  POLYFACE Farm.  He does interns on the farm.  Teaches you how he does things, and you live and work there.  Maybe 6 months or a year?  Get on the web and research Farm internships, and such like that.  Get a few of the farming magazines they sell at TSC , like Acres USA,   Stockman Small Farmer,  and look in the help wanted sections.  

I am not belittling your lack of experience.  Understand that every farmer needs help but they need someone that has some know how.  Like going into a job as a computer tech but you have never seen a computer before.  It costs to teach someone.  You will not get it in 6 months or a year, but you have to start somewhere.  Besides your small flock of chickens, do you have any other "farming experience" ????

Do any of the colleges there offer any kind of ag classes?  What did you specialize in, in college?  Anything you can trade off for farming experience????  Like an accountant doing books for practical hands on experience on their farm?  

If we had a place and some money to hire help, I would almost offer you a job, but we can barely keep it going now since cattle prices have fallen off.  Then you take in this crappy wet  double the normal rainfall, and all the problems with sickness/pneumonia in the calves, trying to keep them fed and healthy when the weather is working so hard against you.  If we didn't BOTH have outside jobs right now, we would have a dozen cows and they would be a hobby.  But we are trying to get a place paid for so that then we will have a home farm.... 

Kids today don't want the headaches, heartaches, and moneyaches that go along with farming.  Even those that grew up in it are seeing how hard it is to try to keep it together.  It is getting even harder with all the animal rights do-gooder idiots that don't get life and death. 

Please find someone or someplace that you can go to work and learn some of what you want to know so that you can make an informed decision on what farming is really like. 
And I hope you "FALL A$$ OVER TEA KETTLE"  in love with farming,  and decide you are going to make it happen.  There are far too few left coming up to carry on and one of these days, this country will be wishing that they had the "next generation" to continue farming.


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## Doug M (Dec 31, 2018)

farmerjan said:


> WOW.  Admire that you want to learn to be a successful farmer.  First thing, GET A JOB ON A FARM.   If you don't want to stay there, then find where you want to go for now.  Get in touch with your local extension service, ag dept at the high school or FFA/4H leader.  Yes you are older than the high school kids.  BUT you need some practical experience.  Find someone that is willing to mentor/teach/employ you and get some real life practical get your hands dirty experience. We look for kids all the time when we need help on the hay wagons making hay in the summer.  Unfortunately, my son and I both work off the farm full time jobs.  We cannot afford to "just farm" with the low prices we are getting for our livestock, and pay rents/leases/mortgages and everything else.  We certainly cannot afford to pay help except for the occasional ones when making hay.
> 
> One that comes to  mind is Joel Salatin in Swope, Va.  POLYFACE Farm.  He does interns on the farm.  Teaches you how he does things, and you live and work there.  Maybe 6 months or a year?  Get on the web and research Farm internships, and such like that.  Get a few of the farming magazines they sell at TSC , like Acres USA,   Stockman Small Farmer,  and look in the help wanted sections.
> 
> ...



My chicken farming experience is like someone who can cook dinner for them self but has never cooked in a restaurant. You know how to do it but not at a commercial level. I'll check out some farming jobs though, I visit tractor supply for my chickens so I'll check out those ads you mentioned. Do you mind me asking why you said cattle isn't very profitable for you besides the sickness? Is the margin kinda low so you need a lot to turn big profits?


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## farmerjan (Dec 31, 2018)

Yes, the margins are very low right now.  The biggest problem here in this area, is that anything we raise has to be shipped either north to Pa or NY or south or west to go into feed lots or on wheat/small grain pastures ,or even for kill.  Trucking is VERY expensive.

It costs in the neighborhood of 1.40 to 1.60 per day to keep a momma cow.  So figure at least $500 per year to keep that cow.  That is figuring in everything, feed, fuel, taxes, leases, you name it.  There are some people on another forum,  Cattle Today ( that you might want to go on and "lurk" a bit ) that have it figured out also for their operation.  If you sell a feeder steer that weighs say 500 lbs., @ 1.50 lb that is $750.  Heifer calves will bring less.  But that is only $250  per head  profit, PER YEAR.  Takes 100 calves to make $25,000.  That doesn't include in any extra expenses, unexpected breakdown, replacing equipment,  etc. and so on.  We run a cow/calf operation.  Meaning that we have the momma cows, breed them, get a calf, wean the calf off at about 6-8 months, then the cow calves again.  They carry 9 months. The calf "crop" is what we sell.  At the 5-600 lb size they usually are (that's an average)  they go to someone who will raise them up to 900-1100 lbs then they go to someone else that feeds them and finishes them out for butcher.
 Then you add in losing a couple over the course of the year.  Or just the drugs that you have to give them.  A 100 ml bottle of DRAXXIN costs over $450.  A couple of shots to keep a calf alive, and you've lost all profit off him.
The reason they often go west is that grain is cheaper to produce there, and so the feed lots don't have to truck in the feed  so it is cheaper to feed them out.  Lots of things go into figuring all this out.
A sick calf also does not gain weight as fast.  Or goes "backward" for a few weeks til he gets back on his feet.... lost weight gain that you seldom make up.
This has been one of the worst years for rain and wet.  Anyone on here, from here in Va., in the states south,   NC  SC, west into Texas will tell you.  Then it costs more to try to keep them dry and bedded.  Pastures are wet.  Grass has been plentiful.  But making hay has been a nightmare, let alone trying to make GOOD QUALITY hay.  So if you are feeding a hay that doesn't meet their nutritional needs, you have to supplement so added feed/grain expense.....

The price we receive from our cull cows, ones that are not productive, raise poor size calves due to various reasons, or didn't raise a calf, is so low now that it is more economical for a farmer to just take and have her ground up into hamburger.  Used to be able to figure that a cull cow was worth $5-600 on average.  Right now if you get $250 or 300 you are lucky.  You can't raise a replacement heifer up for that, so how do you justify keeping a heifer to become a cow?.... and she won't put a calf on the ground for you to sell for nearly 3 years.  Calving at 2 and 6-9 months later  weaning off a calf.....So you have got  $1500 in that cow before she gives you the first calf to sell.  It takes at least 4 calves  to pay for that cow before you can make a profit.   Barring any unforeseen disasters....
If we had to buy all our hay, on a year like this when the quality is poor, then we would be spending more in grain costs.  If we had to buy all our hay and it was a drought year, we couldn't afford to feed them.  
So that's a crash course in SOME of the economics of a cow/calf operation.  We do not have the facilities to get into feeders, and we do not get into showing and such;  which have their own set of expenses, which would make a purebred operation have a different type of returns for breeding stock.  There are so many around now, that I don't see or hear that they are doing all so great , unless they have been at it for a long time and have a good solid reputation. But you have to have some money, and LUCK, to get into it and favorable years to make it pay too.  They are alot of work in the attention to the details.   We couldn't do without them as we buy all our purebred bulls for breeding.  But we could not do it and work other jobs.


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## Doug M (Dec 31, 2018)

farmerjan said:


> Yes, the margins are very low right now.  The biggest problem here in this area, is that anything we raise has to be shipped either north to Pa or NY or south or west to go into feed lots or on wheat/small grain pastures ,or even for kill.  Trucking is VERY expensive.
> 
> It costs in the neighborhood of 1.40 to 1.60 per day to keep a momma cow.  So figure at least $500 per year to keep that cow.  That is figuring in everything, feed, fuel, taxes, leases, you name it.  There are some people on another forum,  Cattle Today ( that you might want to go on and "lurk" a bit ) that have it figured out also for their operation.  If you sell a feeder steer that weighs say 500 lbs., @ 1.50 lb that is $750.  Heifer calves will bring less.  But that is only $250  per head  profit, PER YEAR.  Takes 100 calves to make $25,000.  That doesn't include in any extra expenses, unexpected breakdown, replacing equipment,  etc. and so on.  We run a cow/calf operation.  Meaning that we have the momma cows, breed them, get a calf, wean the calf off at about 6-8 months, then the cow calves again.  They carry 9 months. The calf "crop" is what we sell.  At the 5-600 lb size they usually are (that's an average)  they go to someone who will raise them up to 900-1100 lbs then they go to someone else that feeds them and finishes them out for butcher.
> Then you add in losing a couple over the course of the year.  Or just the drugs that you have to give them.  A 100 ml bottle of DRAXXIN costs over $450.  A couple of shots to keep a calf alive, and you've lost all profit off him.
> ...



wow that was really detailed thank you. Sounds like there's a trade off of getting cheaper food but then you pay down the road with transportation.


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## babsbag (Dec 31, 2018)

I wish you were in CA, I would offer you all the experience you could ask for working in a goat dairy. Unfortunately mine is only a year old I haven't made enough money yet to pay for help. 

The gov't loans for beginning a farm are a little misleading as you have to have three years of experience on a farm before they will give you a loan. Once you get past that the loans are good, I have one for my dairy.


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## farmerjan (Dec 31, 2018)

This country is dedicated to "cheap food"  and the only one that pays the price is the farmer.  If you raise it yourself, you will find that it isn't really "cheaper". What you are doing is trading food that is raised in commercial confinement operations, for food that you are raising in a more "natural type environment, that makes you feel more comfortable about the life the animal has, and that has more flavor and taste than store bought.  It will also usually have more healthy trace vitamins and minerals,  etc, because it is fed a more varied diet and there will be more taste because it was usually fed on pasture and such.  You will be getting the "top quality" of meat at the "lower supermarket" price because you are not figuring in your labor as part of the cost of the meat. 

Most everyone will tell you that you will not be saving much money on the meat you raise.  It is just the quality, and variety will be greater if you get the whole animal, say a beef, put in your freezer.  You won't see the cost all at once, as you have fed that animal for 2 years, a bag of feed and a bale of hay and a days' grazing, at a time, and all you will see is the upfront cost of the butchering.  But if you took and kept a very detailed record of every single thing you put into that animal, you would not see cheap meat.  But once you eat your own meat, you will have a hard time going back to store bought. Try buying some at a farmers market that is farm raised.  If it is good, it is the best there is....


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## farmerjan (Dec 31, 2018)

babsbag said:


> I wish you were in CA, I would offer you all the experience you could ask for working in a goat dairy. Unfortunately mine is only a year old I haven't made enough money yet to pay for help.
> 
> The gov't loans for beginning a farm are a little misleading as you have to have three years of experience on a farm before they will give you a loan. Once you get past that the loans are good, I have one for my dairy.



@Doug M   you ought to go back and read all that @babsbag  went through to get her dairy up and running... It is quite the eye opener..... Don't you know anyone from CA that you could go visit and go see her?  Offer for some work for experience?  She is in desperate need of some help feeding baby goats as they all come fresh for her to go back into production for this year....


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## greybeard (Dec 31, 2018)

What Jan said.


farmerjan said:


> It costs in the neighborhood of 1.40 to 1.60 per day to keep a momma cow.


I'll add, that the cost/day/animal usually does not include land payments.  Those figures are from established cattlemen where the land has already been paid off and hopefully paid for itself years beforehand. If you have to rent or lease land, or are newly into a land loan, that cost per day goes up significantly.

DO take advantage of any govt program that you qualify for IF it is economically viable for you and to your advantage in the long run.

As Jan said; you can make $$ on small acreage and with just a few head of cattle, but make a living from it? No. Not going to happen.
I cannot make a living (up to my standard of living) from my cattle. I make $$ on them, they pay for themselves, they pay the property taxes, and put some $$ in my pocket at the end of the year, but they do not fully fund my lifestyle. If I had not invested some of my farm proceeds in stock equities, I would have great difficulty living as I do. Otherwise, I would have to lease a lot of pasture and increase my stocking rate considerably and at my age, I'm not going to, tho I really believe the current price cycle is the right time to do so.

Develop a vision of what you want, then research the he// out of how to make it happen and don't veer from it. Become, a successful grass farmer first, then.. you can become a cattleman. 

Do NOT raise 'pet' cattle! It's a recipe for failure.

Do you think you will like getting up early, fighting the elements, the price volatility, the animals themselves, the predators, the "neighbors" and their stupid idiosyncrasies? Going to bed late, then tomorrow, do it all again?  Getting a day off once or twice a year? A vacation once every 3rd odd numbered blue moon?
Not enough. You have to _love_ it, live for it, it's what you are..what you do. It's WHO you are.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2019)

What is your degree in?
Here in NC the poultry and hog companies hire a lot of college graduates.


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## Doug M (Jan 1, 2019)

OneFineAcre said:


> What is your degree in?
> Here in NC the poultry and hog companies hire a lot of college graduates.


business management


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## Baymule (Jan 1, 2019)

You could become a WWOOF'er. It is a loosely grouped farms and volunteers on organic farms. You (I suppose) are single with no ties, so it would be a good way for you to get down and dirty on the farm and get some real experience. The program goes like this: You volunteer on a farm for no pay, but you get free room and board. Generally you work half a day and have the other half to go tour the area, like a long vacation. In your case, you could go get a job, waiting tables in a restaurant, McDonalds, Walmart, anything-to meet your personal expenses. You provide your own transportation. It is a good way for small farms to get some help and for people with no experience to get their feet wet. You might have a marvelous time or you could draw a dud. It is an agreement, if it works out, stay longer, if it is not a fit for you or the host family, move on to the next one. It is a world wide organization, you might want to stay in the USA to learn, since you will be farming here.

https://wwoofusa.org/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1d_eh9LM3wIVjDRpCh3crwCsEAAYASAAEgIfT_D_BwE


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## greybeard (Jan 1, 2019)

Baymule said:


> The program goes like this: You volunteer on a farm for no pay, but you get free room and board.
> How to get Free Labor


Sounds a bit like some kind of commune or cult........


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## Baymule (Jan 1, 2019)

greybeard said:


> Sounds a bit like some kind of commune or cult........


Some of them may be, the Permies crowd is always looking for people to populate their "groups". Those I would stay far, far away from. The WWOOF'er crowd tends to be more small farms that need help and most cannot afford a full time hired hand. WWOOFing might be a good experience if the OP cannot find an internship of a job in order to gain much needed experience. Like I said, it could be a dud, if so, move on to the next one. At any rate, he can read and study the site. There might be a host family that he would enjoy working with.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2019)

Baymule said:


> You could become a WWOOF'er. It is a loosely grouped farms and volunteers on organic farms. You (I suppose) are single with no ties, so it would be a good way for you to get down and dirty on the farm and get some real experience. The program goes like this: You volunteer on a farm for no pay, but you get free room and board. Generally you work half a day and have the other half to go tour the area, like a long vacation. In your case, you could go get a job, waiting tables in a restaurant, McDonalds, Walmart, anything-to meet your personal expenses. You provide your own transportation. It is a good way for small farms to get some help and for people with no experience to get their feet wet. You might have a marvelous time or you could draw a dud. It is an agreement, if it works out, stay longer, if it is not a fit for you or the host family, move on to the next one. It is a world wide organization, you might want to stay in the USA to learn, since you will be farming here.
> 
> https://wwoofusa.org/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1d_eh9LM3wIVjDRpCh3crwCsEAAYASAAEgIfT_D_BwE



That's a good idea.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2019)

greybeard said:


> Sounds a bit like some kind of commune or cult........



Yeah.
One of my wife's former vendors has an organic farm.  He left her farmer's market to concentrate on some other markets in Raleigh where people will pay $25 for an organic roasting chicken and $7 for a dozen organic eggs.
He usually has a couple of WWOOFers working at any given time.
They do a lot of partying


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2019)

Doug M said:


> business management



Something you could look into.
Although, NC State provides a steady stream of animal science graduates.


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## Simpleterrier (Jan 1, 2019)

My suggestion is to get a good job that can support you and your hobbies. And do it all on your own u won't need gov aid. Trying to get big and make a living would be just to flood the market more then it is already. If u can keep in the postitive then u will be ok. I raise a steer a few hogs and breed 3 to 4 goats plus sell some chickens. And at the end of the year I get free eggs and and pork and beef that is cheaper then the store. But if I figured labor in the forget it. But I do things differently then most and some would not agree with me


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## Doug M (Jan 2, 2019)

Simpleterrier said:


> My suggestion is to get a good job that can support you and your hobbies. And do it all on your own u won't need gov aid. Trying to get big and make a living would be just to flood the market more then it is already. If u can keep in the postitive then u will be ok. I raise a steer a few hogs and breed 3 to 4 goats plus sell some chickens. And at the end of the year I get free eggs and and pork and beef that is cheaper then the store. But if I figured labor in the forget it. But I do things differently then most and some would not agree with me



true, thats what I was thinking I would do to get started but after a while I would think I could switch over to full time farming.


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2019)

You have to find your niche, your customers and what they are willing to pay. We raised Cornish Cross chickens last spring, had one customer. They paid $5 a pound for parted out, vacuum sealed chicken. We butchered 44, they bought 10. I took the backs, necks, heart, liver and gizzards and canned them for the dogs. I simmered the bones from the "boneless" chicken and canned broth. Later, the same customer requested more chicken, 10 pounds. That brought down the cost of the chicken we kept and shared with our daughter and family to fifty cents a pound. If we cultivate more customers, it could be a money making operation. Would we do it large scale? no. But it pays for or lowers the price of what WE eat, tremendously. 

Here is a family run operation about a couple hours drive from me.

https://windymeadowshatchery.com/

http://windymeadowsfamilyfarm.blogspot.com/

We also raise feeder pigs. So far, we have 2 customers who are happy to wait for a premium product. One bought a new freezer to hold the whole hog they purchased. 

On the two feeder pigs we raised in 2018. We sold them for $4 a pound, hanging weight. It cost $1.05 per pound for processing, plus a kill fee. Then the cost of feed, not counting my time. We did make money on the pigs.  We sold 10 pounds of the lamb for $10 per pound. It paid for the $85 processing. We had 40+ pounds of lamb for us. 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymule’s-pigs-2018-herefords.37448/page-12

Hanging weight on Piper (the one with the most white) is 188 pounds.

Hanging weight on Poodle is 178 pounds.

Hanging weight on the lamb is 51 pounds. 

We raise lamb, hair sheep. Lamb is frightfully expensive, we charge $10 a pound. I really haven't developed a steady market for the lamb, but haven't had a problem selling it either. 

This is a few examples of what you can do, starting small and building your base. You can't be all things to all people. If I were to make a living at this, I would put my efforts into ONE avenue and specialize in that. 

This is a great site on raising pigs. They started small and grew their market. They now even have their own USDA slaughter facility for their own hogs. They have their own breeding stock, raise, feed, slaughter and ship their own product. They use NO commercial feeds. 

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/

I realize that you want to raise cattle, but I don't have sites for that. This will give you an idea of what you can do. 

We live in an area where there are people who can and will pay more than grocery store price for quality meat, raised in a natural setting and not in a feedlot. Know your market.


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## greybeard (Jan 2, 2019)

From a similar thread on another board, comprised of people who actually raise cattle and make $$$ doing it:

_Start a detailed spreadsheet outlining your input costs, your cows, calving schedule, etc. This is gonna help you gauge your profit and stay organized no matter which direction you take. They sell cattle specific software you can research. I like cattlemax. 

Figure out if you’ll be selling select cuts of meat or whole or half beeves. Find a local USDA cert butcher that is capable of processing your beef. Your butcher is an extension of your operation, view him/her as an employee. Make sure you find a good one. That can make or break you.

Start a social media page marketing your product. Gauge the interest in your area. Unless they are a part of the whole grass fed/local food movement they probably have no idea what your talking about and you’ll have to put it in front of them and explain what you’re doing. You may not have a market in your area and end up with a freezer full of beef and no where to sell it. You’ll have to be a good salesman until you establish a name.

Search around and see if you have a CSA in your area, if not get some local farmers together and see if you can start one yourself. Preferably farmers that aren’t producing beef so you’re not competing. Maybe someone who produces vegetables or chicken or whatever.

If you do get interest through your marketing see if people are willing to pre-order so that you have a guaranteed sale for the final product preventing freezer burned beef laying around.

Direct marketing sounds great but it’s not for the faint of heart and it’s tough. You’re David going up against the Goliath that is commodity beef. Just start slow, butcher one steer year one and haul the rest to the sale barn until you build a fan base. A lot of people try and very few succeed._
Pay attention to the very 1st paragraph and the very last one.
CSA=Community Supported Agriculture.

Most who claim to make $$ on small ag actually do not, because they have not fully and honestly recorded and calculated the full input costs of their endeavors, and with cattle, it's all about inputs, which is the [only[/u] part of raising beef that you have any control over..
It ain't easy being a used cow salesman.

how a CSA works

It's basically, the same as so-called "corporate farming" but on a very small and local level. 
Instead of being tied to the ConAgras, Cargills, JBS, Tyson Foods and Whole Foods of the world, you are being paid up front for your harvest (either at the beginning or part way thru growing season)  by the local restaurants and markets and if the crop fails, you have no requirement to give them a refund.


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2019)

Greybeard that goes hand in hand with what I was saying. Start small and build the business.


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## greybeard (Jan 2, 2019)

Doug M said:


> My understanding is to make a maximum profit on cow for example eventually they would be sold. Same with pigs, chickens etc. Is it always true you need to sell them for butcher to maximize profit?


No. Not always. It is true for what is known as stockers. Buy calves early in the year, put them on pasture and sell them as feeders later in the year so you don't have to carry them thru winter. It depends on what kind of livestock operation you are going into. Your cattle come from somewhere...some are sold as replacements, tho they could also have been someone else's culls.

For instance:
A breeder has a great line of momma cows....he looks at his records at the end of the calving year, and his bottom line calf producers get culled and sold because they aren't up to the standard he has set for his herd, but for many ranchers, they'll fit right in their commercial herds. And, that makes a lot of financial sense for both parties. Let someone else (the seller) do the hard part; raising the animal, going thru the headache of getting a heifer's first calf on the ground alive, finding out if and how well she can raise it. The breeder sees some trait he doesn't think fits his operation and off to market she goes, usually at a local salebarn, where either a feedlot buyer purchases her or a local farmer says "Hey, she'll work for me!" and he outbids the order buyer as a "back-to-farm animal. If he's lucky, she's also already bred to one of the breeder's hi $$ bulls or with semen from any of the hundreds of great donor bulls available and just like that, that farmer has great genetics right there on his own farm.

Another slower, more costly option is to raise your herd from scratch. Buy a few heifers or proven easy calving cows and either buy, borrow a bull or go AI and start raising your own herd and replacements. This, is very high risk for any  of the reasons FarmerJan mentioned and you better have your ducks in a row and ready for he// on wheels when it comes.

Cattle.....I can't see myself starting with less that 50-60 acres of pasture and less than 15-20-30 females. Economy of scale plays a BIG part of the cattle business if your goal really is to make and maximize a profit. You can buy feed cheaper per any volume measurement  if you buy it in larger quantities....same with hay. Same with fence posts and wire. And, many regions, states, counties restrict/prohibit whether a place qualifies for an ag tax exemption with cattle if you don't have enough acreage.
I have a neighbor right now, that is badgering me to sell him 3-5 acres so his place will qualify for ag exemption and he's offering me a great premium over what the market value is............that's how desperate he is to get his place under ag exemption. Being small in cattle, can actually COST you money if you are keeping track of all your inputs, which you would/should  be doing since you already stated you don't want a 'hobby'.


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## farmerjan (Jan 2, 2019)

Yeah, what @greybeard  says.  If you are thinking to move somewhere else, and you are not familiar with the climate, you have another total learning curve.  It's a whole lot different to run 1 feeder per acre or 2 per 3 acres here in Va than what it takes out in the west where I have heard of 1 per 20 acres in the drier areas.  Land costs are cheaper though.... 
Get a good job, save some serious money, and find someone nearby that you can go help on the weekends or do an intern program and make sure you want to put that much into a farm.  
Hobby farming is looking better and better for us here lately.... It's just an uphill battle with prices what they are and the horrible wet weather situation we have been dealing with.  And it is all over this whole general area... there is mud and more mud and water where so many of us have never seen it this time of year.  Check out some of @Southern by choice  posts on her goats and @Goat Whisperer , they work together and have some joint and separate operations.... even many of the Texas members are dealing with the mud and mess.. and this is something that you can't just say, "i'm staying in the house today"   cuz it's muddy or freezing or too hot  or something.


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2019)

Where are thinking about moving to?


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## babsbag (Jan 2, 2019)

And on the flip side you can come to CA where there is no water.  Our rainy season this year has been about average for us, we are at 91% of normal, but many places are much lower. The state is going to start rationing water in 2020 to 50 gallons a day per person. I am on a well and so far no meters but those days are coming. Not sure what kind of allotments there will be for ag.  I know our farmers in the central valley are going to be hit hard with a new regulation that requires a set amount of water to flow to the Delta so they can hopefully save the salmon. The state has an extensive water reservoir system that allows water to be stored from snow melt and rain and then used primarily for farming; there is no other way to farm in an area with no summer rain.  They are going to restrict the amount of water that can be stored and restrict ground water pumping and flood irrigation. They say the cost of alfalfa is going to double, if there is any at all. Not good news when you own a dairy. 

I guess I just talked you out of living in CA.


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## Latestarter (Jan 3, 2019)

Now if we could have only talked YOU out of living there...


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## Mini Horses (Jan 3, 2019)

@Doug M  -- So now that you have gotten some TRUE, maybe overwhelming, honest advice from those who are there, what are your thoughts?    

Since you are new to the EVERY DAY drudge work, I agree with the "apprentice" at a farm ideas.

Obviously there are pro/con, for this life,  from many.   Several of us who had these dreams from a very young age are now in or close to retirement.   We are still living our dreams, different scale.  I've had farms for years.  Some made money, some were just for "home" and enjoyment.  Both have been good to and for me.  My own goal now is to enjoy my dream and to produce enough income to "feed them", the animals I so adore, that is.   Yep, I also have a "bail out" plan because one day I will need to stop.  I even have a slow down "before that" plan.   once it's in your blood, you just know it's forever.   For many it isn't farming for a livelihood so much as a way of life.  That's me.


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## RollingAcres (Jan 3, 2019)

farmerjan said:


> this is something that you can't just say, "i'm staying in the house today" cuz it's muddy or freezing or too hot or something.


So true! And you can't just take off to go on vacation. You'll have to make sure you make arrangements to have someone take of your animals while you are away.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 3, 2019)

farmerjan said: ↑
this is something that you can't just say, "i'm staying in the house today" cuz it's muddy or freezing or too hot or something.
And TRUST ME -- there ARE days you just want to stay in!


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## babsbag (Jan 4, 2019)

One of my biggest fears is getting sick, even with something simple. I could find a friend to come over and toss feed for a few days but there is NO ONE that can do the milking. Even though I have a husband the dairy and the farm are ALL MINE; he wouldn't even know where to start. I will be in a world of hurt if the day ever comes that I can't go out and milk.


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## babsbag (Jan 4, 2019)

Latestarter said:


> Now if we could have only talked YOU out of living there...



I was born here and will probably die here. While I hate our politics I love our weather. I have looked at other states and they are either too humid, too cold, or too wet. But when CA runs out of water I might have to leave.


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## ReluctantFarmer (Jan 4, 2019)

Since you mentioned chickens a couple of times, here is what a full time chicken operation looks like around here.  You’ll most likely buy and sell to Tyson.  It’s tough, dirty work in the chicken houses.  From what I hear, you end up just basically working for the corporate machine and you take all the risks.  There is a pretty high initial investment.  Same if you run a turkey house.  I’d take the advise of @farmerjan and visit one of theses places to see if it is for you.  Also, yo hablo espanol?

This should give you an idea of the capital investment and some of the recommended facilities.

Northwest Arkansas and southwest Missouri have a lot of farms setup similar to this.  On the plus side, you get to live in the Ozark hills and be your own boss.


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## Latestarter (Jan 4, 2019)

As I understand it with the above, you HAVE to buy the chicks from the buyer of the finished product. And the buyer can "gig you" at the end when they buy the grown birds back, for whatever reason. Maybe they were an once or two less than planned, or too many damaged birds, or because it was a cloudy day. https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2017/apr/22/chicken-farmers-big-poultry-rules


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## Latestarter (Jan 4, 2019)

babsbag said:


> I was born here and will probably die here. While I hate our politics I love our weather. I have looked at other states and they are either too humid, too cold, or too wet. But when CA runs out of water I might have to leave.



I know Babs Just would really love to have you as a "neighbor" and while I know there's virtually no way you'll leave CA, you know there's equally no way most of us would ever willingly move there. Waaaaay to much govt control and sheer stupidity.


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## farmerjan (Jan 4, 2019)

A few things about the "commercial poultry industry". Many of my dairy farmers have a house or two on their farms.  Here in Va it is more common to only have one or two, rather than 4 or 6 or more.  Partially in this area due to the land ( alot of rolling hills and alot of underlying rock).  Many got into it for the value of the poultry litter as fertilizer.  Litter sells here for about $30/ ton... and we use quite a bit of it.  The thing is, there were so many built in the county north of here, that the ground is actually getting too much phosphorous;  and that is what leaches out into ground water and causes algae blooms and other problems. Too much of a good thing and all that.  
There are alot of them being put up right now here.  There is a shortage of "hen houses", that produce the chicks for the broiler houses.  And since there is this huge thing about eating chicken because it is supposed to be healthier for you, there is a great demand.  
If you start from scratch, and get through all permits and such, and no opposition from neighbors,  and you decide to do broilers instead of turkeys,  you will have about 500,000 invested per house.  Broilers turn over every 40-42 days, so about every 2 months you have a new houseful of birds. There is daily checking, walking the floors, picking up dead birds.  And yes, there will always be dead birds. You will get anywhere from 15,000 to 30,000 all depending to the size house you put up.  It is all computer controlled and it ties into your smart phone, so if an alarm goes off, you get immediate notice. That means you will have to be available 24/7 or have someone else who is if you are gone. 
If you go turkeys, they are raised to different sizes, from light hens all the way to heavy toms.  That is decided by the company when you put the house up and what you sign up for.  Again, about $500,000 per house.  They will stay for anywhere from 14 weeks to 26 weeks.... Turkeys are much "harder on the equipment, the toms are rough and the big ones can get mean and you can get hurt....bruises are the norm for someone with toms. 
There is a greater return on the toms, slower turnover, but there is alot more upkeep and maintainence on equipment.  And you will be REQUIRED to do certain updates etc by the company.
Average payback time on a house is a 15 year note.  The companies here are only signing a 7 year guarantee contract.... so if you have some lousy flocks that don't gain, other problems,  and all that, you could lose your contract after 7 years and still have 7 years left to pay on the note.  By the end of 15 years, the turkey houses will need some definite repairs/replacing of equipment.
The broilers are easier on equipment.  You don't make as much, and they turnover much quicker so the less per "house" makes it up in the "more houses" you raise.  So a little more work... but less to fix...
A hen house is a little different, you get ready to lay pullets, and they pick up the eggs twice a week from you for setting to hatch.  You have to collect eggs at least twice daily.... and you get paid on the eggs... quality and quantity.  Turnover once a year.  

You don't "buy the chicks or poults" per se.... the company supplies them, and you get paid after they go out.  It is a comparison thing, but it basically is rate of gain compared to feed consumed, figuring in the total death loss and all other small things;  like any sickness, bad legs.... there's alot to consider.  You work for the company, and as long as they hold the note, and you are under contract, you have to basically do as they say.  Some people do great at it, some don't.  It seems that once the house is paid for, if you have done a good job at it, and they want to keep you, they want you to "upgrade" the house.... so you are spending more money.  
The good thing, if you have the land, getting a poultry contract is a good way for someone to get started because the financing is all inhouse, or they help you secure it elsewhere because they are guaranteeing there is a market for the product.  But if there is anything like the "avian flu" or something, you could be wiped out and the house sits empty for months at a time. 

LOTS to consider.


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## Amelie the Bee Keeper (Jan 4, 2019)

If you were looking at the chicken side of things, head over to our sister site BYC for more things about chickens: https://www.backyardchickens.com/


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## Senile_Texas_Aggie (Jan 4, 2019)

Well, Mr. @Doug M, has everyone scared you enough?   The farming profession is a high failure rate, capital intensive profession if you try to do it full-time, as the above folks made clear.  But it can be a rewarding profession.  You might enjoy watching some YouTube videos of some real-life farmers.  One of the ones I watched extensively was Stony Ridge Farmer in North Carolina.  Both he and his wife work(-ed?) full-time jobs, which is what provides the income to enable them to get their farm going and growing.  But there are a bunch of others that doing full-time for a living.  I would be VERY reluctant to go deeply in debt to get started in farming -- financial stress is tremendous -- and suicide among farmers is quite a bit higher than among the general population.

So the ideas of working at a farm for room and board sounds like a good plan to me.  You get the experience without having to go into debt and you get to see what it is really like to be a farmer.

Good luck.

Senile Texas Aggie


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## Mini Horses (Jan 4, 2019)

No replies from Doug M.   

We either scared him off or it was a researcher.


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## Latestarter (Jan 4, 2019)

8 posts total, 7 on Monday, one on Wednesday... He may just be busy doing whatever it is that "young" college age people do...  Wouldn't give up on him yet... though he is a researcher, one way or another when you come right down to it.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 4, 2019)

Latestarter said:


> 8 posts total, 7 on Monday, one on Wednesday... He may just be busy doing whatever it is that "young" college age people do...  Wouldn't give up on him yet... though he is a researcher, one way or another when you come right down to it.



We have been "catfished" lol


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## greybeard (Jan 6, 2019)

Latestarter said:


> He may just be busy doing whatever it is that "young" college age people do...


I suspect "young" female college people are part of that busy picture....._The happiness of pursuit_


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## farmerjan (Jan 9, 2019)

Yep, he just disappeared......


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## greybeard (Jan 10, 2019)

farmerjan said:


> Yep, he just disappeared......


Let me stop you right there....................................... Aliens.


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