# Buckling acting strange after banding



## Pipit (Jul 6, 2009)

Nick was banded Sunday morning about 10:30.  He's urinating and pooping.  He's pooping a lot and the berries are in clumps. Plus, he just stands there looking ill.  The breeder said he'd be like that for a few hours, but it's  been over a day and, if anything, he's acting worse.  He has eaten.  Not as much or as vigorously as before.  He perks up only for animal crackers but barely.  He used to be very lively and mischievous and very demonstrative.  Molly looked very passive next to him, but now she seems like the lively one.  He does not have a fever.
Is this normal for bucklings to behave so after banding.  I read from so many goats owners  that the discomfort lasts only a few hours.  Is there something wrong with my baby?  I'm worried about him.


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## username taken (Jul 6, 2009)

its not normal, and I'd be having an experienced breeder or vet give him a quick check up


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## jojo@rolling acres farm (Jul 6, 2009)

This is not normal at all. I agree he needs to go to the vet asap. I would check the external band area and see if there isn't extra skin or even one of his teats...caught in the band. Something isn't right with that little guy. Good Luck...keep us posted.


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## Rockytopsis (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't see how banding would cause clumping poo. Has there been a feed change or when was the last time he was wormed. 

I do agree that the band should be checked. We check ours daily till the dingle falls off.


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## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

My feeling is the change in faeces is a stress response. 

I do think checking the band daily is overkill.

For newbies, I usually say, put the band on, and dont look at that area for a month. Because honestly, it can get kinda messy, but its normal and people tend to panic if they see it looking a bit gooey. 

Only time I check the band is if a wether appears off colour, like this one obviously is. 

Jojo, I'd be wondering about a teat also, I've also seen one where the penis was caught up in the band, not a healthy happy goat that one.


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## Rockytopsis (Jul 7, 2009)

Sorry, not a newbie here  and  I don't think it is overkill. We handle the boys daily so might as well check while we have them. 

The band should never get "messy" and there should not be any "goo" there. Messy and goo indicates a problem.


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## mully (Jul 7, 2009)

His response might be stress related which causes his stools to clump. He should not be acting too strange after the first 1/2 day. Might want to have him checked as he should not be in pain but something is making him very uncomfortable. Good luck with him!


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## lilhill (Jul 7, 2009)

Rockytopsis said:
			
		

> Sorry, not a newbie here  and  I don't think it is overkill. We handle the boys daily so might as well check while we have them.
> 
> The band should never get "messy" and there should not be any "goo" there. Messy and goo indicates a problem.


I agree.  Any time we do any procedure like banding, the boys are checked regularly to make sure nothing out of the ordinary is going on.  I've never had any mess or goo here on our banded boys either.


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## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm not saying you are a newbie. 

I'm just saying, I literally band hundreds of lambs and kids each year, and it is not uncommon at all for there to be a bit of goop and muck under the band, when the scrotum begins to separate from the abdominal skin. Its natural. 

Tell you what, I have some bands on now, I'll take some pictures for you in the morning. I'm not sure whether they are at detachment stage yet, probably not. I've got very recently applied, and long time ago. Not sure whether the long time ago are still hanging on or whether they've fallen off yet. But in any case, I'll get some pics for you. 

I'd estimate the rate of problem (ie infection) in bands is around 1% or less. Not exactly a common problem, so really all the paranoia about checking bands every day really isnt necessary.


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## Pipit (Jul 7, 2009)

I just got back from taking Nick to the vet.  Except for a slight fever, the vet said he was fine.  He said the banding looked good and he seemed healthy otherwise.  He gave Nick a prescription for fever and pain.  I feel better now.  My DH thinks I worry too much, but, hey, I'm his mommy, that's what we do!


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## currycomb (Jul 7, 2009)

we take band off if kid is acting like that. he either has alot of pain, or something wrong. he did have a little fever? something not right. i do not like to band in hot weather, too much chance for maggot infestation around band. this pain thing is real. had a nubian doe, had vet come and put tag in ear for 4-H show (before we found out registered goats with tattoos don't need tags), well she just went and stood in corner of stall, thought okay justs needs to get used to it. next day she is down in stall, thrashing. i take her to work, a different vet, he says heat stroke, put her down. nope, took her home, cut the tag out of ear, in 10 minutes she was up, with nerve damage in hind leg, a couple days later she was fine. know your animals


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## lilhill (Jul 7, 2009)

Glad you got him to the Vet.  And what did he say was causing the fever and pain if banding looked good?


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## helmstead (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm curious what's causing the fever, too.  Here, some boys act like you've crushed their manhood a little longer (well, because you have! haha)...they'll walk stiff legged, roll over and look at it sometimes for a few days.  None of them ever act off though or develop a fever.  Did you have a fecal run?  I'd be concerned about cocci...perhaps with a little GI infection going on as a result.

Which antibiotic is he on?  Don't forget Probios while he's on them.


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## Pipit (Jul 7, 2009)

The doctor didn't know what was causing the fever.  He guessed it was stress from the banding.  They were not able to get a fecal sample and I forgot to bring one.  The doctor gave him Zubrin, which I have read is for dogs with arthritis.  He claims to be trained in caprine care and was the closest vet who does treat goats and other livestock.  The next nearest one is almost 2 counties away.  Seems strange to live in such a rural area with all kinds of livestock that there should be so few vets that care for them.

What else can I do for Nick?  He's still eating well and drinking.  Still peeing and pooping.  What should I watch for?


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## Pipit (Jul 7, 2009)

Just came in from giving Nick and Molly their dinner.  Nick seemed much better!  He came out of the pen, walked all around and even followed me into the house.  He and Molly have been more interested in eating hay and forage than their bottles.  Looks like they're weaning themselves.


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## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

Great to hear he is doing so well! And thank you, for taking him to the vet  there are just too many people who for some reason or another wont do that

I'd be more inclined to think that the fever, he had some underlying infection just sitting there, that his body was dealing with, without showing syptoms (what we call subclinical illness), and the stress of banding has exacerbated it, so that he shows symptoms now (a clinical illness). 

Now as for what you can do for him, not much more than you are doing  you are doing a great job. normal feeding, antibiotics, and plenty of love, TLC, and he will be just fine. 

Oh, HANG ON. I just re-read your post - Zubrin is a non steroidal anti-inflammatory, which will act as a pain relief but isnt going to help with infection. I would be ringing the vet to ask him about giving Nick an antibiotic, as a precautionary for the elevated temp

How old are these kiddos? I wouldnt worry too much if they are weaning themselves as long as they are eating solid feed. But, you only mentioned hay and forage, that is good, but alongside that, these boys need a good high protein grain or pellet, at least 16% protein, preferably 18 - 20%.


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## goatdude95 (Jul 7, 2009)

Well I know you are a woman but imagine if you were a man and got your ball sack crushed by a VERY tight rubber band thingy I think you would have diarrea too lol I just banded a new boy i bought and he had the squirts for a few days but now they are getting smaller and he lost the diarrea and is acting a lot better too


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## username taken (Jul 8, 2009)

trust me goatdude, diarrhea is NOT a normal response to banding


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## lilhill (Jul 8, 2009)

username taken said:
			
		

> trust me goatdude, diarrhea is NOT a normal response to banding


Amen to that!


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> username taken said:
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I third that.

Glad to hear he's improving, hope it continues!


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## Pipit (Jul 8, 2009)

We also give them Purina Goat Chow.  And, of, course, animal crackers for a treat.  Nick also likes apples, but Molly wants nothing to do with them.

Yes, I was wondering about antibiotics.  I wondered why the vet didn't prescribe one as well.  Unless, like in humans, over prescribing antibiotics can lead to problems later on.

Nick is feeling MUCH better this morning.  He's even started jumping again.  I am SO RELIEVED!  I've missed his impish behaviors.

The vet said his scrotum was numb, so I'm hoping he's not in too much distress.

Thank you all for your advice and for caring as you do.  I love these little guys so much and I want them to stay happy and healthy.:clap


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 8, 2009)

One thing that I did not see mentioned is using Tetanus anti-toxin in conjunction with banding and Blu-Lotion spray.  It is still not to late.  Even if the vet put him on antibiotics he should have asked you about Tetanus.  
We have several goats  banded right now and I don't check the band daily either.  It is important in warm weather to check for fly strike.  Every few days or so I look, and if the Blu-Lotion spray is gone I reapply it.  

Two things I NEVER do, Tag an ear without Tetanus anti-toxin or band without Tetanus anti-toxin.  

Chris


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## Pipit (Jul 8, 2009)

Yes, he's had his CD/T shots and been wormed.  He's back to his old self today, running, jumping and getting into mischief.  What a little scamp!


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## username taken (Jul 8, 2009)

GREAT to hear he is doing so well!

I've never given tetanus antitoxin with banding, never had a problem

Yes, overuse of antibiotics in animals can cause problems just like in humans. However, I dont feel that is any reason to hesitate if an animal is acting unwell and has an elevated temp. The problem comes when people give the antibiotic without an elevated temp, or for things like snotty noses, when the animal is otherwise acting normal and feeling happy. 

Now Pipit, can we see a photo of Nick?


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## Pipit (Jul 9, 2009)

check out my web site, n4dbi.com.  There are pics and movies as well as a live goat cam.  It's raining at present, so they're in their little house.  But we have night vision so you can even see when they come out for a snack at night.  They usually come out between 10 and 10:30 pm Eastern time.

The n4dbi is my ham call sign.  Hubby and I are amateur radio operators.  In addition to critters, we have LOTS of antennas and understanding neighbors!


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## helmstead (Jul 9, 2009)

Cool site!

  Do I see a PENGUIN in there??


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## Pipit (Jul 9, 2009)

Yeah, my DH put it in because I've always wanted a pet penguin.  He is the web master for my site, his (w4sul.com), our autistic son's(astrobunny.com), and our radio club's, (kf4ixu.org.)  Just some fun with photo shop.


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## helmstead (Jul 9, 2009)

I had to wonder!


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## cmjust0 (Jul 10, 2009)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> Two things I NEVER do, Tag an ear without Tetanus anti-toxin or band without Tetanus anti-toxin.
> 
> Chris


Tetanus toxoid, or anti-toxin?  I can certainly understand giving tetanus toxoid vaccine with an ear tag or castration (of any kind -- cord-crush, cut, or band), but I don't get the anti-toxin thing..

Anti-toxins are quick acting and short lived...do you put them on a regimen of it?

Something else that's not a good idea is disbudding without taking precautions for tetanus, for you folks who disbud..  

Gheeeh...I hate disbudding..


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 11, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Griffin's Ark said:
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Tetanus toxoid is slow acting... the goat will not be protected from the shot for 10 to 14 days.  Anti-toxin on the other hand works immediately.  One dose is all you need if your goat is up to date on their CD and T.  I also keep CD anti-toxin in the house.  You could give it once a day if you needed to.  CD and T toxoid is not the end all save all.   Keep the anti-toxin on hand for any emergency and don't be afraid to use it.  It won't hurt your animal, but it might save it.

Chris


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## cmjust0 (Jul 14, 2009)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> Tetanus toxoid is slow acting... the goat will not be protected from the shot for 10 to 14 days.  Anti-toxin on the other hand works immediately.  One dose is all you need if your goat is up to date on their CD and T.  I also keep CD anti-toxin in the house.  You could give it once a day if you needed to.  CD and T toxoid is not the end all save all.   Keep the anti-toxin on hand for any emergency and don't be afraid to use it.  It won't hurt your animal, but it might save it.
> 
> Chris


I agree that CD and Tetanus anti-toxins are a must-have for the medicine cabinet, and I know how they work..  Knowing how they work is what threw me, frankly.

I think I see where things went off the rails, though..  When you said you never tagged or banded "without tetanus anti-toxin," I thought you meant that you always _administered_ tetanus anti-toxin at the time those procedures were done..  Now, however, I'm thinking you meant that you didn't do those things without having it _on hand_ in case someone set up a tetanus infection..

What I didn't get was why someone would immediately administer a quick acting, short-lived anti-toxin at the time of banding or tagging when it would certainly be long metabolized and gone by the time any potential tetanus infection set up..

I get it now...I think..?


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## Farmer Kitty (Jul 14, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Griffin's Ark said:
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Maybe it's time to move on to a new topic?


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## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2009)

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> Maybe it's time to move on to a new topic?


Well...I'd kinda like to give the person I was having a conversation with an opportunity to tell me whether I finally understood what he was saying or not..

Afterall, if there's a good reason I should be administering tetanus anti-toxin at the time of banding, tagging, or disbudding, I'd kinda like to know what that reason is..  Maybe it'll save me a goat someday.

I don't really see a problem here...?

Edited for posterity:  

According to information gleaned from another thread and various other sources thereafter, I was apparently dead-wrong about how quickly tetanus anti-toxin wears off.  It apparently gives protection for 10-14 days, so it makes absolute sense not only to have it, but to administer it when tagging/banding/disbudding/etc.


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