# correcting bad behavior



## Tapsmom (Sep 11, 2011)

Goat newbie questions here.  I understand that our ND jumping on us will not be so cute when they are full grown so we gently push them off when they do that.  However, now they have started biting our clothes and nipping at hands and arms.  What is the best way to deter that?  Sometimes it smarts and  I don't want the human kids hurt.  They are very friendly and generally quite snuggly so I am guessing their nibbles are of an exploratory nature.  I know how to correct this issue with dogs and horses-I speak dog and horse- but I am still learning to speak "goat" 
Also, what is the best way to teach them to lead?  The human kids put on their collars and do their best to lead them out in the morning.  I thought I had read that it was not a good idea to tug on them to much, so they have been giving them a tug and if they balk, giving them a push on their but.  This still doesn't seem to work as well as we thought it should:/


----------



## elevan (Sep 11, 2011)

A quick flick or smack to the nose for the biting / jumping.  I'll flick mine with my finger and it works for me.  Some people also carry a water squirt bottle and give them a squirt...I don't like to carry around stuff like that personally.

Teaching to lead...practice - practice - practice     You can also hold their favorite treat in front of them just out of their reach while you walk them on the lead to get them used to the feel of the collar and lead.


----------



## Tapsmom (Sep 11, 2011)

Aahh, so goat is a similar language to the other two   Thank you.  I will try that.  I know it's better to steer them in the right direction when they are young.  
  We haven't found any "treats" that they are intereested in yet:/ They are just deciding they like the grain but haven't been interested in any of the vegies or fruits we've offered them.  Our chickens, on the other hand are the least picky critters I've ever met!


----------



## elevan (Sep 11, 2011)

The "treat" could be a favorite weed.  Or a leaf from a tree.  Leaf Chips are wonderful snacks in the goatie world


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 12, 2011)

we have problems with some of our show whethers trying to nip at the kids clothes instead of standing at attention when they are suppose to be practicing setting up for the show. WE give them a smack, not a beating, just a smack.  It can get to be a really bad habit for them, if not firmly discouraged. 
I don't like encouraging the children to hit the goats, So we have discussed the moral issue of it. 2 of my 3 children get mad at me, because I am persistant about the children not letting the goats bit at them, and the children don't want to be mean to the goats. ONe of my children, is okay with it, and she happens to be the one that can tame and handle any animal. She says, it is all about gaining their trust and respect and for them to trust you but to know you are in charge. She could take an animal off of range conditions that has never been handled and  have it broke and ready for the show ring in just a few days.  It is amazing to watch her handle an animal. And yes, on occasion I have seen her cross the line and insist she is in charge. Her animals never get spooked by her and always listen very well. 

Okay that was my little talk on once in a while you need to cross the line and let the animal now you are in charge. But be very consistant, don't discourage bad behavior one minute and then allow it another, or have 2 different people handling the animal with 2 different set of rules.


----------



## redtailgal (Sep 12, 2011)

c


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Sep 12, 2011)

they hate a smack to the ear.


----------



## redtailgal (Sep 12, 2011)

c


----------



## elevan (Sep 12, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Socrates and Freezerburn are MORTIFIED if I get the ear. Plato couldn't care less.  It works on teenage boys too, I've been giving my two boys a solid thwack thump to the earlobe when they sass.......it works, sort of.  *Now they smart off, then grab their ears and run away.*


----------



## Tapsmom (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks again  My natural reaction was to give them a little smack.  Obviously they are small and they were exploring not being aggressive, but I wanted to let them know it was unacceptable... and do so in a firm manner without frightening them.  I did try the rope around the bottom..like starting a young foal.  All he did was twist around and still not come forward lol.  I like the leaf idae.  They also seem to enjoy the pine needles.  I believe I saw that it aids in worming?  I could be wrong though.  I've been wrong before and I'm sure I will be agin lol.  Hmm, I will keep in mind the advice on the ears.  Does it work on little girls as well?


----------



## winterduchess (Sep 12, 2011)

As for treats, my goats LOVE graham crackers.  I know that's not necessarily healthy... but they are perfect for when I need to get them to do something, or as a reward.  I can hold out a graham cracker and they'll practically knock me over trying to get it!


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Sep 12, 2011)

For a snack I always give raisins...they love em...mine would jump thru a hoop for a handful of raisins.  I dont smack my goats. Not to say sometimes some of them really deserve one!!!   I move them away from what thier chewing or nipping or jumping on and put my hand over their face to cover thier sight and say NO firmly.  Like any animal training repitition is key.  By doing that with them so often..I dont even have to touch them for them to stop what their doing...its really great! But thats what I do with mine anyway.  I think they think that if they behave badly, they will go blind!!!!  Just kidding!!!  

As for lead training..make sure the collar is held at the top of the head...dont try to pull the whole goat...it wont work..move the head in the direction you want them to go and the body follows. I never found pushing a goat from the back end ever worked...they seem to back up into it...lol!! Practice, practice, practice...some will do great and follow you anywhere and some take a little longer.  But keep at it...they eventually get it!! 

Good luck!


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 12, 2011)

I have found with my herd, that collars only choke them... either they won't come and put their head at a comprimising angle, or they pull and the collar it shoved into their throat. I switched to using a sheep halter... it leads them by the nose(so to speak) and they are more than willing to walk as close to right by my side as possible. MUCH easier!

I don't think they are accepted in the show world, so if you plan on showing, they will have to learn how not to choke themselves when on a collar/lead.


----------



## elevan (Sep 12, 2011)

Regarding pine needles as natural dewormer...some people believe this to be true...I'm on the skeptical side of that.  It won't hurt but don't rely on it and always run fecals.


----------



## kstaven (Sep 12, 2011)

Pine: As of in Ponderosa pine can in some cases cause still births and abort fetuses.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 13, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Regarding pine needles as natural dewormer...some people believe this to be true...I'm on the skeptical side of that.  It won't hurt but don't rely on it and always run fecals.


Yes, we run fecals when they are showing any signs of possible worm load... but so far, all our fecals come back clean. So, I believe that the evergreens do work as a natural dewormer.  We are trying to go as close to all natural as possible... letting them have as much medicinal "herbs" at their disposal as possible and monitoring when they go to certain ones.  Momma went nutso over the hemlock trees for about a week leading up to kidding and for 3-4 days post kidding.


----------



## elevan (Sep 13, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Pine: As of in Ponderosa pine can in some cases cause still births and abort fetuses.


Point taken.  And should serve as a reminder to all that natural doesn't always mean safe.  A lot of "chemical" medicines were derived from natural sources.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Sep 13, 2011)

Most of us that either do all natural, or as close to it as possible, make sure to research what possible effects or harm could come in using any plant medicinally for either people or animals. For example: Someone with a severe liver disease, like hepatitis c, shouldn't use Astragalus... as it will do much more harm than good to them. 

The "in some cases", in regards to ponderosa pine causing still births & abortions, is mostly with animals that are either already weak(reproductively) or under conditioned/sick. The killing off of worm loads(no matter whether chemical or herbal treatment is used) can always have a chance of killing the unborn kids. Please keep this in mind.


----------



## kstaven (Sep 13, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Most of us that either do all natural, or as close to it as possible, make sure to research what possible effects or harm could come in using any plant medicinally for either people or animals. For example: Someone with a severe liver disease, like hepatitis c, shouldn't use Astragalus... as it will do much more harm than good to them.
> 
> The "in some cases", in regards to ponderosa pine causing still births & abortions, is mostly with animals that are either already weak(reproductively) or under conditioned/sick. The killing off of worm loads(no matter whether chemical or herbal treatment is used) can always have a chance of killing the unborn kids. Please keep this in mind.


Some of it comes down to conditioning also. We brought goats in from the prairies who had never seen a ponderosa. Our area is full of them and every single goat(25) aborted. While ours who are born here can eat it by the bucket and never have issue.


----------



## Tapsmom (Sep 14, 2011)

My goodness this has been a very helpful discussion.  Thanks, everyone  We live on top of a mountain in New England so they will be exposed to lots of pine.  They have nibbled it a little and I wasn't planning on it being their only source of preventative care..I just figured it was a little bonus lol


----------



## manybirds (Sep 14, 2011)

My baby goats suck on my cloth but i just let them. i'm a bad goat owner  . I don't mind as long as they're not really biting me


----------



## Tapsmom (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't mind them sucking on the fabric either..but they are starting to actually bite into it immediately-which is why I needed to stop them


----------



## kstaven (Sep 14, 2011)

We all learn that what starts out as innocent and cute can later become a problem.


----------



## Goatherd (Sep 15, 2011)

> Re: correcting bad behaviorWe all learn that what starts out as innocent and cute can later become a problem.


Just ask Joan Crawford's kids.


----------



## autumnprairie (Oct 12, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> > Re: correcting bad behaviorWe all learn that what starts out as innocent and cute can later become a problem.
> 
> 
> Just ask Joan Crawford's kids.


NO WIRE HANGERS EVER!!!!


sorry had to


----------



## Queen Mum (Oct 14, 2011)

Never had to hit a goat. Hitting is aversive, yes, but they will learn to avoid your hands.  That is not preferable because your hands also do other things and you need them to trust your hands.    

I start when they are young.  They have a collar immediately at birth.   If they do something I "lead" them away with the collar.  Just a little pressure.  A gentle movement is all it takes.  Reward them with releasing the pressure.  They get the idea fast.   Use a clicker at the same time.  

Of course, if you have a bigger herd, you can't leave the collar on if you also have horned animals.   OR  if you don't have them young, and you watch what an older goat does, you will notice they head butt in the shoulder area.  It's not a hit, it's a push.   Use your knee for that.    Also, a twist and tug on the butt hair or belly hair works more effectively than a smack or a hit.  The hair tug smarts, Mama does will do this with the kids.   So they will respect it.  

Both techniques are VERY effective.  They are "goat language" that the goats will understand.  The push is common language and  it does not allow the animal to associate the action with your hands.  It is aversive enough to get the message across.  Even seasoned bucks respond to cues that they remember that their mothers used from infancy and so they won't usually "talk back" to the hair tug thing.  

Sara


----------



## Queen Mum (Oct 14, 2011)

BTW,  we have 80 some odd goats here and all of them suck on my shirt and pick at my pockets and hands.   They are looking for goodies, pets, scratchies and whatnot.  None of them bite.  They may nibble, but they are careful NOT to bite.  

Sara

Queen Mum


----------



## Mamaboid (Oct 15, 2011)

Our youngest girl likes to put her feet up on me for rubs (she was raised the first 4 months of her life with kids that left her do it).  I use the same method on her that I do on my dogs when they jump up.  A knee to the chest, combined with a sharp "DOWN".  She is getting the idea, lately she has started to put her feet up and then remembers and drops to the ground.  When she does this, I give her a good rub and a lot of "good girls".  She loves "good girls" and has learned that she doesn't like what happens when she hears "NO" and doesn't listen.  She doesn't get treats or rubs.  I love to watch them learn things, you can almost see on their faces when the "get it".


----------



## Queen Mum (Oct 15, 2011)

It is so gratifying to see them learning!   I love it.   

Sara
Queen Mum


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Oct 16, 2011)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> Never had to hit a goat. Hitting is aversive, yes, but they will learn to avoid your hands.  That is not preferable because your hands also do other things and you need them to trust your hands.
> 
> I start when they are young.  They have a collar immediately at birth.   If they do something I "lead" them away with the collar.  Just a little pressure.  A gentle movement is all it takes.  Reward them with releasing the pressure.  They get the idea fast.   Use a clicker at the same time.
> 
> ...


Ayaiyai! I had a doe that would bite the rejected buckling's rump and then tear out a chunk of his hair, just because he was standing too close to her.  thankfully this eventually stopped as he got older and could move quicker.

For my herd, I have learned a couple dam's tricks for the misbehavers. 
(1) Stand VERY erect while looking the offender in the eyes, tilt your head toward them while swiftly bending sideways and give a decent stomp. It mimics a corrective pre-head butting warning... something commonly done by a head queen. 

(2) learn the alpha's grunts, moans, and other verbal communications. Take note of the ones she uses to get those under her away from food or away from kids.  Usually a 2-3 grunt, grunt. You'll know what I mean when you hear it. The really angry one is a single extended grunt/moan.


----------

