# Help! Can someone identify color of lionheads



## Anna t (Jun 26, 2018)

Hello just rehomed these two lionheads and was wondering if anyone can identify the name of the coloring for each. Also what kind of kits they would produce if they were bred. The breeder did tell me they both are Vienna.


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## Sundragons (Jun 26, 2018)

Need more pics but they look like a blue and a lilac to me. the blue is definitely vienna marked, the lighter one tough to tell. That second photo looks like they have white paint on them almost.

Are they littermates? Did you get any kind of pedigree?


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## Bunnylady (Jun 27, 2018)

Sundragons said:


> Need more pics but they look like a blue and a lilac to me. the blue is definitely vienna marked, the lighter one tough to tell.



I agree, the darker one looks like a blue, but I don't think the light one looks lilac. Lilac isn't just a lighter shade of blue, it's a dilute chocolate, so it has a pinkish tinge that is very different from the gray tone of the blue (which is a dilute black). With the ears so much darker than the body color, I'd have to go with a dilute shaded; most likely a Smoke Pearl.



Anna t said:


> what kind of kits they would produce if they were bred.



Well, with these two, you are locked in on dilute and self. That won't get you anything that could be shown, unless they are both carrying non-extension, in which case you_ might_ get a blue tort. A Smoke Pearl most likely has a REW gene; if the Blue has one, you might get REW babies. Those are the only possibly showable colors at this time.


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## Anna t (Jun 28, 2018)

Thank you both for the feedback! The breeder did say the blackish looking one was a Siamese sable but I looked up pictures online and she looks to be darker then most of the ones online who turned brown... she does have a slight tinge of brown at the end of her fur... but I'm not sure what she is, and as the grey one he said he was a silverish blue and they both have the Vienna gene. I'm just curious as too what the girl will end up looking like. And they aren't from the same litter as so he says but they were born a week apart.. but who really knows .. 

Also the white powder is a anti mite thing the breeder put on them (he gave them to me with them).. they have mites which I also have no clue about I did take them to the vet which prescribed me revolution the kitty puppy version and put one full tube on each bunnie. They are 6 & 7 weeks old and have been on for 5 days now. I am also having issues with trying to feed them hay because they were free roaming in his backyard eating grass and now I'm trying to transition them to free roam in the house . They refused the Timothy and alfalfa. I am feeding them also spring greens which they love and some pellets because that's what the breeder fed. 


Any experience on mites and hay? I tried online research but get diff answers for the mites . Any help will do thank you


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## Bunnylady (Jun 28, 2018)

Anna t said:


> The breeder did say the blackish looking one was a Siamese sable but I looked up pictures online and she looks to be darker then most of the ones online who turned brown... she does have a slight tinge of brown at the end of her fur... but I'm not sure what she is, and as the grey one he said he was a silverish blue and they both have the Vienna gene. I'm just curious as too what the girl will end up looking like.



Clearly, this "breeder" knows nothing about color. I wonder what else he knows nothing about, since he sold these rabbits at such a young age (most breeders don't sell before 8 weeks of age; in a lot of places, it's even illegal to do so).

Siamese Sables don't turn brown, they are born brown, with brown eyes. The darker rabbit in your pictures has gray fur and gray eyes. Depending on what the parents had, there is a slight chance that it might be a Blue Seal, but that looks like a Blue; nothing at all like a Siamese Sable. A brownish tinge on the ends of the fur is just sun bleaching.

"Silverish blue" is, of course, meaningless. A Blue is the same shade of gunmetal gray from nose to tail, which the lighter rabbit clearly isn't.  Longhairs and partial longhairs can be a little confusing, because the color can get quite a bit lighter on the wool, but it doesn't look like this.  Smoke Pearl is the dilute version of Siamese Sable; it has darker color on the points, and varying lighter shades on the body. Siamese Sables are dark, sepia brown on the face, ears, feet and tail, a somewhat lighter shade on the "saddle," and a lighter shade still on the rest of the body (but not so light as a creamy beige - that's a different color). Being the dilute version, Smoke Pearls are shades of gray rather than brown, but otherwise the same.

Vienna is the gene that causes the Blue eyed White (a completely white rabbit with cornflower blue eyes). A rabbit has to have two copies of Vienna to be a BEW; one copy usually gives you a colored rabbit with some white on it (known as Vienna Marked, or VM). The white is usually on the face and/or the feet; it may be just a little white spot or it may even look just like the white pattern of the Dutch breed. Rabbits that have one copy of Vienna may have one or both eyes blue. Occasionally, you can get rabbits that have the Vienna gene but have no visible white; they are referred to as Vienna Carriers, or VC. 

Not every rabbit with a white spot is VM; there are other genes that can put white on the face and feet. White 'noses and toeses' are cute, but they are a disqualification on any color on any breed, and the bane of many a breeder. If this breeder was working with BEW's, then yes, your rabbits could possibly produce a white rabbit with blue eyes, but if he's as clueless about this as he is about the rest of it, you could breed them together until the cows come home and never get a BEW.

(Incidentally, you said something about free roaming these rabbits in the house. Since they are apparently opposite sexes, you are going to have to separate them by the time they are 10 weeks old, or your doe will be at risk for becoming the rabbit equivalent of a teenage mom. Rabbits really should not be bred before they are fully mature, which is at age 6 months or so.)

As for the mites? I have done battle with fur mites and ear mites on occasion, but never made a connection to hay. Since I have always had rabbit or rodent suspects that could have brought the mites in, I have never had to wonder how long a parasite can live without a host to feed on, or just how many wild animals would have to be roaming in a hay field to infest it.


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## Sundragons (Jun 28, 2018)

@Bunnylady you are a wonderful font of knowledge. Thanks for continuing to share your experience. 

@ana t, For the hay, try spritzing it with some water, or even soaking it a bit. If they're used to grass, the smell of damp alfalfa may entice them a bit more. You can also try finding some orchard grass, it's more aromatic and our herd seems to prefer it to timothy or alfalfa. I'm no help with the mites, but if you've already seen the vet and they've given you a treatment plan, just follow it and they should clear.

Here's an example of a vienna marked blue. She's a holland lop and not a lionhead, but she's s good example of what VM looks like. They don't all have blue eyes, this one happens to be lucky. (We're working on BEW hollands, so this one is going to stay with us and be part of our gene pool)


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## Anna t (Jun 28, 2018)

Hi @Bunnylady @Sundragons thank you so much for clarifying that up for me. I was very confused. The breeder doesn't seem to be knowing what he is doing at all which is sad. Thank you for that much needed information. You really seem to know what your doing and it really helps beginners like me feel more assured. I will probably be neutering them instead what age is best to neuter? Also I tried to take better pictures of the color. And I will def try to get some orchard grass any recommended brands?


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## Sundragons (Jun 28, 2018)

Re: grass. Hit your local feed stores and see what they have. For a couple of small buns, you're not going to need a lot, they may just let you grab a bag full. Otherwise, kaytee or oxbow from pet* are fine.

Man, in that light, how that blue looks black.


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## Bunnylady (Jun 28, 2018)

OK, so maybe it's a trick of the light, but the rabbit that in the first post looks Blue in the last picture looks a very dark brown. If that's the color it actually is, it might actually be a Siamese Sable, or more likely, a Seal. A Seal is two copies of the shaded gene; Seals are very, very dark brown, nearly black, with just a hint of lighter shading. Siamese Sables start out a similar color when their hair first starts to come in, but the body color pretty rapidly becomes lighter than the color on the points. At this age, I'd expect more contrast between the body color and the points on a Siamese Sable, but baby colors can be weird. One thing about Shaded colors - they constantly change. Each time the rabbit molts in a new coat, it will be a somewhat different shade than the one it replaces. This kid should be starting to get the junior coat coming in, which is likely to  be more "normal" when it comes to things like shading patterns.

Still say the lighter one is a Smoke Pearl, though.


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## Anna t (Jun 29, 2018)

Yes I think it def is the lighting I was trying my best to capture as close as In person but my phone kept pulling a orangey cast over them I think she is towards the last pic. To the eye she is a very dark grey with brown tips. It def looks like she is turning more brown then when I first brought her home one week ago but it's kind of scattered it looks like the brown is growing. Thank you for sharing your knowledge! It's is very hard to find this kind of info online .


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