# Electrical fencing issues



## pete495 (Jul 17, 2012)

Hello,

I live in Central Pennsylania near Williamsport, PA, the home of the little league world series.  I am just looking for opinions on electrical fencing.  It has been very dry here the last month with very little rain.  Ironically we got flooded out of our old home last year.  We bought this place, which is a 9 acre farm last October.  Last month we started to get the fence electrically ready.  It was actually ready to begin with because it had cows on the land, and the fence was operating fine.  It was hooked to a 100mile charger, and 10 guage lead out wire to high tensile aluminum wire fencing around the pasture.  The owners took their charger with them, so we bought a new one, a Zareba 25 mile fencing charger.  I removed the 10 guage wires because they were old as dirt.  I installed 2 six foot grounding rods, and one 8 foot grounding rod, all 10 feet apart.  The grounding rods are hooked to each other, and grounded the fencing charger appropriately.  The hot wire to the fence is wrapped standardly 8 times around each of our 3 strings of wire to the fence.  

Well the 25 mile fencing charger did not do the job, so I bought a 100 miles charger.  Really, I had no additional luck.  After this I installed the 3rd grounding rod, which is 8 feet.  Tonight, a friend of mine told me to pore water on the grounding rods since it has been so dry.  I went ahead and did that.  It worked!  Immediately after, I could feel a charge on the fence line.  Unfortunately it did not last.  So the question becomes what to do next.  It has been really dry here the last month, but I want the fence to work even when it is dry.  Do I need deeper grounding rods?   More grounding rods?  higher guage lead out wire?  Should I switch the grounding rod positions?  I have springs on the property and was thinking of putting them closer to the springs.  Of course this would be more costly because they are quite a distance away from the charger.     

Just wondering what other may think.

Thanks.

Pete495


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## bjjohns (Jul 17, 2012)

You might want to read the end of this thread.  You have grounding issues.


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## bjjohns (Jul 17, 2012)

bjjohns said:
			
		

> You might want to read the end of this thread.  You have grounding issues.


OK, that was kind-of nasty of me to post, here is what is happening:

Your fencer needs a ground to determine reference. The weaker the ground the worse the reference. In "ideal conditions (engineering term)" non-grounded situation you can grab the positive and the negative of a fencer and never feel a shock.

A positive / negative fence helps alleviate this in dry conditions, but does not solve the problem. Your fencer grounds HAS TO HAVE great contact to work, and ideally you need the amount of ground contact required (usually expressed in # of ground rods) as well as wet dirt (all the way to the bottom of the ground) for it to even come close to working.

How to fix it.

Run Positive & Negative fence.
In drought conditions trickle water your ground rods.
ALWAYS follow your fence controllers grounding suggestions, even if it does not make sense to you.
Water your grounds whenever you even begin to think the earth is dry.

NB: A/C powered fence chargers, when tied to your home electrical system (where else would you get 110?), and when the ground get dry will back feed through the best ground, like your home land line phone. If you pick up your phone and hear clicking, this is what is happening. Phone systems tend to be better grounded than A/C systems.


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## kfacres (Jul 17, 2012)

you need to drive the ground rods atleast far enough down into the perm water table.. 6' won't do it.. that could hit the temp watertable, but most likely not...  atleast 10'.  The best way is to have one cold wire on the fence, and have a ground rod in that location as well--- in the lowest point on the property--- like the bottom of a ditch.  4 ground rods need to be used...

I was going to tell you the 25 mile fencer-- is junk-- but then you read my mind...

I have a 100 and a 200 mile box-- the same brand.. my 200 will put out the pop-- as will the 100.  I've seen both shoot a spark an inch to a good grounded peice of steel.


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## goodhors (Jul 18, 2012)

And with this weather even a long ground rod, 8ft is size for us, you may need to water them for good contact.

We are watering our ground rods, is is DRY.  In my specific area, you are never going to hit a water
table with a 6-8ft ground rod.  But normally not needed, since the dirt is a dense clay that is always
damp at that depth.

Do you have a good contact with ground wire to rod?  Those clamps often oxidize with two 
kinds of metals touching, can need changing or oxidation rubbed off for good contact.


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## bjjohns (Jul 18, 2012)

kfacres said:
			
		

> you need to drive the ground rods atleast far enough down into the perm water table.. 6' won't do it.. that could hit the temp watertable, but most likely not...  atleast 10'.


That's not really true. My permanent water table is MUCH deeper than what I can drive a ground, by about 30 feet. It's a matter of getting the amount of ground contact the fence controller manufacturer recommends. One of mine requires 18' of ground rod spread against at least 3 rods spaced 5 feet apart. Another one just says two ground rods.


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## kfacres (Jul 18, 2012)

bjjohns said:
			
		

> kfacres said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


clearly the people who are driving ground rods in-- but in this drought-- and it isnt' working-- is for a reason...

The whole principle of a ground rod is to make sure it is moist so the electric current will flow through that animal's body to make the shock.

If your ground is dry as flour-- like most is right now---  it won't matter if your ground rod is 10" or 100'.  It WON'T SHOCK.

Out west, where it's not uncommon to have a serious drought 6 out of 10 years-- they don't really even use ground rods-- they use the fence it'self as ground.  Alternating hot and cold wires-- so that when the animal touches the fence-- the volt jumps from hot wire to cold wire- through the animal... and shocks them.  The main reason being that a hard, super dry hoof.. isn't going to do much contact with the hard dry, sandy dirt on the ground-- unless she's standing in a puddle of pee.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 19, 2012)

I saw someone using a 6 gallon plastic water container with a tiny hole at the bottom of it, set near their ground rod to water it daily during the drought.


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## redtailgal (Jul 19, 2012)

Yes, we "water' our ground rods when its very dry, we've also put them near the gutter line, where the ground stays wet longer.

Our water table is so deep that there is just no way to drive them that deep.


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## secuono (Jul 19, 2012)

If you Google electric fencing, you will find the alternating + and - fence in itself like *kfacres* mentioned. 
You have two options, water the rod or make the fence itself a charge and grounder. 

My only issue was, don't they have to touch two wires, both the hot and cold, to get that charge? How many animals actually do that?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 19, 2012)

secuono said:
			
		

> If you Google electric fencing, you will find the alternating + and - fence in itself like *kfacres* mentioned.
> You have two options, water the rod or make the fence itself a charge and grounder.
> 
> My only issue was, don't they have to touch two wires, both the hot and cold, to get that charge? How many animals actually do that?



the neighbor had alternating + and - wires on their electric fence and they let us use a part of their land for grazing and it didn't come close to keeping the goats in. So we had to run a couple addtional positive charge wires on it and ground it ourselves and run it all off of our electric fencer.  

I would say alternating + and - wires would  probably work if you have 6 or 7 lines of wire closer together than the normal electric fence with just 4 or 5 lines of wire.


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## secuono (Jul 19, 2012)

Ah, that's it. The close wires!


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## Tokoloshe (Jul 20, 2012)

There are a couple of methods to improve the earth to earthpost contact;-

1/. Increase the number of stakes as deep as possible preferably into wet soil, river bed or dripping tap (Pretty obvious)
2/. Add an earth stake every 500m away from the primary stake radiating out from that stake.
3/. Irrigate the stake as described earlier in the thread.
4/. Core out a hole in the ground and backfill around your stake with Bentoniite soil , Vermiculite/Soil mixture or a gel/soil mixture. These absorb moisture and retain it a lot longer than straight soil.

In the dry soil we have in Africa we use a return earth (alternating live and earth wires up the fence) system on every occasion with a post every 500m making sure there is a MINIMUM of 6000v in the fence line


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## pete495 (Aug 3, 2012)

Okay everyone, here is an update.  I am still having issues.  I bought a Zareba Energy digital fence tester, and tested the fence charger, and every post around the 3-wire fence.  I disconnected the hot wire from the 100 mile fence charger, and left the ground wire connected.  The energy on the hot connector was 9000volts, which I guess is plenty.  I am assuming this means I have adequate grounding.  I then walked around the fence in a counter clockwise rotation.  The fence comes out of the charger, and only reaches 1000 volts right near the charger.  1/4 of the way through, the fence measures only about .5 volts.  The fence continues to go around the counter clockwise rotation and gradually increases up to .8 volts, but that is all.  The counter clockwise rotation ends back at the charger.  I already changed a **** load of insulators, but I'm guessing it wasn't enough.  Is this right?  

As was before, when it rains, it works great.  A day or two later of dryness though, it is back to the above readings.  To me this sounds like a grounding issue, but if the grounding voltage is still 9000 volts when it's dry, and I'm not getting a shock, it must be the fence, correct?  I just want to be sure before I buy a **** load of new insulators.  I have already replaced the ones I thought might be faulty.  I do have a little advice also.  I have aluminum fencing with wood posts and rubber insulators.  I would not ever use the rubber insulators because they are stapled to the wood posts, and it is impossible to know if that staple has gone through the rubber insulator and is touching the aluminum wire.  

Thanks for your comments thus far.  

Pete495


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## pete495 (Aug 3, 2012)

That is funny how they changed my curse word to poop.  I am happy they let me post though.  Thanks!


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## cedarcurve (Aug 4, 2012)

I agree, your fence sounds grounded out somewhere.  

Have you mowed under the fence?  

Disconnect each wire from all the others, and hook the fencer up to that wire individually.  This will tell you if the problem lies on one particular wire, or all of them.

The rain deal- sounds like your ground rods are dry.

Test the fence dry, then try dumping water on the ground rods, come back an hour later- test the fence, and then wait a day-- and test the fence again.  This should let you know if the problem is the lack of moisture in the ground rod.

could be a combo of several problems compounding together to give you nothing on the hot wire.

I also have Zareba chargers- 50-100 and a 200 miler.  I have about 600 foot of 3 wire fence on the 100 miler right now, and if the ground rods are good and wet-- you'll get a good zap, but if they are dry-- I'll walk up to the fence and grab it, won't be much more of a shock than sticking a D battery to your tongue.  

My 50 miler is on about 100 foot of 3 wire fence, and it doesn't work very good.  I think this fence has old junk insulators on it.

My 200 mile fencer is on roughly 1/4 mile of differing stand fence, some has weeds growing under it, as I just don't want to get out in the hills and mow under it.  it's still shocking good right now after the dew drys off, however it's ground rod is set plenty deep in moisture.


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## Tokoloshe (Aug 6, 2012)

Hi Pete,
Have a look at this Electric Fencing problem solving page , it may help. If you have an AM radio it helps to search for leaks as a radio signal is given off (Marconi Effect from your old school physics) and is picked up as a "click" on the radio. This gets louder the closer you get to the actual fault.

Was the test for 9000v done between the live terminal and the earth post, the earth terminal on the energiser or did you stick the tail of the tester into the ground?  These will result in a different conclusion.

You don't mention if it is a mains unit - if so how close together is the earth wire to the lead out cable. It is possible to generate an inducted current into the earth wire so robbing your energy.

It reads like you will need to resort to an earth return fence and include alternating earth wires so disregarding the ground as an arm of your fence circuit.

All the best,

Paul.


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