# Is SafeGuard wormer safe for my pregnant doe?



## Susyr22 (Feb 6, 2013)

Hi, I checked on my Doe today who is Due in March. Her membranes under her eyes were a bit pale. I've been told by a friend to use SafeGuard horse wormer in a tube to worm her. Is this really safe? And how much should I give her? Not sure of her exact weight, but I know She weighs over 100 pounds.

Thanks so much!


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 6, 2013)

Before you worm, do a fecal. You know nothing at all and have no clue as to what she has and what wormer to use without first doing a fecal. For example, the FAMACHA method, the one you are using for her eyes there, tells you only about the Barberpole worm and the load there. Well SafeGuard isn't going to treat the Barberpole worm so you would do no good in that case. You must do a fecal to tell if she needs wormed and what she needs wormed with.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Feb 6, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> before you worm do a fecal. You know nothing at all and have no clue what she has and what wormer to use without first doing a fecal. For example, the FAMACHA method, the one you are using for her eyes there, tells you only about the Barberpole worm and he load there. Well SafeGuard isn't going to treat Barberpole worm so you would do no good in that case. You must do a fecal to tell is she needs wormed, what she needs wormed with.


x2


----------



## Susyr22 (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks for the info! I'm actually heading into my vets tomorrow. So I will take a fecal in for her.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 6, 2013)

Awesome! That will tell you what you have in there, if anything. After you get word on what showed up come here and let us know before you worm. That way we can help to better determine what you need to worm with.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Feb 8, 2013)

Susyr22 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info! I'm actually heading into my vets tomorrow. So I will take a fecal in for her.


Your vet could probably tell you what's best.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 8, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> Susyr22 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah...most of the time. But I've seen even vets be way off and give out wormers or things that DO NOT help or even work so to be safe come back here and let us know what she has.


----------



## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 9, 2013)

Safeguard is a really ineffective wormer around here. We only use it if we know the goat has tapeworms since it does work on them. You may want to ask for an alternative such as Ivomec Plus. Valbazen is good, but NOT for pregnant does.


----------



## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 9, 2013)

Yep. In most places in the US SafeGuard does NOT work. That's really good it works for you at least on Tapes. I use it on Tape too and it seems to work great for the Tape here still.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Feb 9, 2013)

Safeguard for horses is totally ineffective for goats.  Their stomach construction is completely different.  They absorb medications totally different.

Beyond that, every farm is a different situation.  

Not knowing how many goats you have, how much pasture, and how much you can rotate your pasture, no one would be able to give you definitive advice on what worming regimen you should pursue.

If your veterinarian has good experience with small ruminants, I'd take their advice first.  If they don't, I'd try to find a new vet.


----------



## Southern by choice (Feb 10, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> If your veterinarian has good experience with small ruminants, I'd take their advice first.  If they don't, I'd try to find a new vet.


I agree. If your vet is not a goat -vet find one.

We had a farm call KNOWING we had goats, that's what they came out for (we do physical exams on all new animals while in quarantine). The vet they sent WAS NOT a goat experienced vet. It was not a good experience. The vet had no idea what they were doing. I of course still ended up with a whopping by the hour bill just to end up having another vet check all the animals. It caused so much stress.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 10, 2018)

Rather than start another thread . I will ask my question .And hope some one responds with the answer .I feel a little frustrated sometimes like I'm talking to a used car salesman,  here and on other sites as well . I would like to point out that the question" Is safeguard dewormer safe for a pregnant doe ? "that was asked was never answered . Although helpful  the replies  did not answer the direct question . So with out all the fecal advice, and finding a good goat vet advice . Is safeguard safe to use on a pregnant doe ?  A simple yes or no will do .All the other dewormers that I find for goats say don't give to a pregnant doe .  So if the answer is no, then  what would you recommend using on a pregnant doe ? Knew a man once that would tube worm his high dollar race horses, with a once of pesticide . Said the worms came running out  I'm close to using it on goats


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 11, 2018)

I have used it without issue in pregnant goats. I believe when I used it the does were about a month out from kidding.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 11, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I have used it without issue in pregnant goats. I believe when I used it the does were about a month out from kidding.


Thank you . I gave the doe a dose this evening . I fear I've  gotten  myself in a mess. I bought 8 Boer cross does. One is down in the trailer . She went down on the trip home .Had her on corid for two days and today safeguard . she is eating and drinking just isn't getting up. They are all malnourished and look awful. All are supposed to be bred some are just to young to be kidding . One of the young does kidded two still born kids today. The lady I got them from is using a walker and just could not care for them . I knew if I didn't take them they would die one by one . They need to be on a intensive feeding program . Can't put them with my flock yet only had them a couple of days . They need green grass and it'll be a few days before I can get them there. Right now they have plenty of hay and water and I'm feeding them as much feed as they will clean up in a feeding. I need to do fecal floats on them. For now it seems like deworming for all possible infestations is the wise thing to do .So tomorrow I intend to dose  all of them with safe guard and Ivermectin. I have a dosage  for using injectable Ivermectin  orally . I have no ideal of their treatment history. I figure I'm either  going to cure them or kill them .And my wife is upset with me for bringing them here Our other goats are fat and healthy .  Surely I can get the healthy again .


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Dec 11, 2018)

What dose are you using? How many days are you giving it? 

We give Safeguard at 1cc per 10lbs (per our vet) for 3 days. 5 days if the goat has a higher load. 

I believe corrid needs to be given for a minimum of 5 days, but not sure. I haven't used it before. 

I would be watching for pregnancy toxemia big time. Poor girls sound like they are in rough shape.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2018)

Hipshot said:


> Thank you . I gave the doe a dose this evening . I fear I've  gotten  myself in a mess. I bought 8 Boer cross does. One is down in the trailer . She went down on the trip home .Had her on corid for two days and today safeguard . she is eating and drinking just isn't getting up. They are all malnourished and look awful. All are supposed to be bred some are just to young to be kidding . One of the young does kidded two still born kids today. The lady I got them from is using a walker and just could not care for them . I knew if I didn't take them they would die one by one . They need to be on a intensive feeding program . Can't put them with my flock yet only had them a couple of days . They need green grass and it'll be a few days before I can get them there. Right now they have plenty of hay and water and I'm feeding them as much feed as they will clean up in a feeding. I need to do fecal floats on them. For now it seems like deworming for all possible infestations is the wise thing to do .So tomorrow I intend to dose  all of them with safe guard and Ivermectin. I have a dosage  for using injectable Ivermectin  orally . I have no ideal of their treatment history. I figure I'm either  going to cure them or kill them .And my wife is upset with me for bringing them here Our other goats are fat and healthy .  Surely I can get the healthy again .



I would go slower on the feed or you risk acidosis.  Do you happen to know any fecal counts (EPG eggs per gram) this will tell you more about type of worm and efficacy of the dewormer you are using. If extremely high loads I do not follow the normal protocol as it tends to kill goats.  Wise to not put them together with your goats. Quarantine at least 30 days/ 60 days sounds  better in this case. Meanwhile draw blood send it out and check disease status. The last thing you want is CL, Johnes or CAE infecting your goats.

I agree with @Goat Whisperer  - watch for toxemia. Sounds like they also need vitamin support.  Do you have a vet you can work with? You also want to make sure disease isn't causing abortion.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 11, 2018)

You bought these with your heart, didn't you? For their sake, and yours, I hope you can nurse them back to health. If they die, it won't be from lack of care on your part.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 13, 2018)

New development. The largest doe kidded twin doelings today. They seem to be doing OK .


Goat Whisperer said:


> What dose are you using? How many days are you giving it?
> 
> We give Safeguard at 1cc per 10lbs (per our vet) for 3 days. 5 days if the goat has a higher load.
> 
> ...


 I only dosed the one that is still down .Going by the label. Corid is for her weight 20 CCs . I use CO-OP medicated feed too. Setting up today to treat them all and the doe kidded.



Southern by choice said:


> I would go slower on the feed or you risk acidosis.  Do you happen to know any fecal counts (EPG eggs per gram) this will tell you more about type of worm and efficacy of the dewormer you are using. If extremely high loads I do not follow the normal protocol as it tends to kill goats.  Wise to not put them together with your goats. Quarantine at least 30 days/ 60 days sounds  better in this case. Meanwhile draw blood send it out and check disease status. The last thing you want is CL, Johnes or CAE infecting your goats.
> 
> I agree with @Goat Whisperer  - watch for toxemia. Sounds like they also need vitamin support.  Do you have a vet you can work with? You also want to make sure disease isn't causing abortion.


 Thank you . I should have thought all of those things.  To be honest I haven't even thought about blood disease. The only vet I know that will do goats is 60 miles away .And will not do farm calls . I heard of one closer but haven't been able to find a number for her. Blood work will have to wait till after new years . I've spent so much money on them already . Wife not happy at all .



Baymule said:


> You bought these with your heart, didn't you? For their sake, and yours, I hope you can nurse them back to health. If they die, it won't be from lack of care on your part.


 I really did .I went and looked at them and the price was average .Would have been fine if they were in good shape  .I was looking for mature does, in good health and good size .Told them they need feed and medical attention . I just  knew they were being neglected .It wasn't intentional but still.   And I could not get them off my mind . Even bought to nice looking older doe's bred to a dappled Boer . That made it worse . So I went back and got them . I have a rule that I apply to livestock purchases .Simple rule, I try not to pay more than I can pound it out for at a livestock sale barn. I offered what I that that was and she took it .  So now I have my hands full. Tomorrow I hope to treat them all, worked hard toward that today .


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Dec 13, 2018)

Hang in there Hipshot, some one needed to try to save them,  I would of brought them home too....all you can do is your best....you sound like a kind person, wishing you much luck with them


----------



## Baymule (Dec 13, 2018)

In a few months, you'll have them back in good shape and healthy. Hang in there.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 13, 2018)

I'll in to deep to give up . Besides I just bought 500ml of ivermictin and  that cost more than a goat ,


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 13, 2018)

Label dose for fenben is useless and will only build resistance (if it is safegard for goats). It says for goats but that dosage is a cattle dosage.

As far as bloodwork. Drawing blood from the jugular is EASY!  Save the farm call and do it your self. You can send the blood to the lab you choose. 

Congrats on the new kids! YAY! Keep an eye on the dam's temp, and hay intake.  
So where are the kid pics? We do need to oooh and awwwwwwww  over them, kinda like a rule here.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 14, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Label dose for fenben is useless and will only build resistance (if it is safegard for goats). It says for goats but that dosage is a cattle dosage.
> 
> As far as bloodwork. Drawing blood from the jugular is EASY!  Save the farm call and do it your self. You can send the blood to the lab you choose.
> 
> ...


 I'll have to find blood tubes, and a lab . New fly in the ointment. The down doe has kidded this morning with help A real mess. She has stood only with help .  So I'm off for milk replacer and goat bottles . The lady gave me nipples .Really both sad and angry. I can put my hand around her backbone As of now both buckling's are alive .Can I save Them is the big question . I'm soaked to the bone raining all morning . Aw farm life never changes . Never bottle fed a goat before .Lots of calves. I will try to get them to nurse  colostrum when I return . And pictures when I can


----------



## Mini Horses (Dec 14, 2018)

Hipshot said:


> I feel a little frustrated sometimes like I'm talking to a used car salesman, here and on other sites as well . I would like to point out that the question" Is safeguard dewormer safe for a pregnant doe ? "that was asked was never answered . Although helpful the replies did not answer the direct question . So with out all the fecal advice, and finding a good goat vet advice . Is safeguard safe to use on a pregnant doe ? A simple yes or no will do .All the other



Most people replying are NOT veterinarians.  They are experienced breeders and sometimes better able to answer than some vets, experience is a great teacher.

Many questions are to help them advise you and not create MORE issues, if possible.   Some symptoms can cover multiple situations.  Some meds are safe in late pregnancy and not in early, etc.   Some won't work on everything...…

I'm sorry you feel frustrated with  us    BUT some of these responders have handled more goat troubles in a month than you may in  your lifetime.   Pls be patient and know that the intent is to help you, nothing more.  But that often requires some Q&A.

Your heart is good -- these girls NEED YOU.    Bring them to health and they will reward you in years to come.    Yes, get colostrum into those little ones.   You may well lose some of this group, as I am certain you know already.   We are all rooting for them to get well an live a good life.   Kudos for taking them in.

ABSOLUTELY quarantine.     Absolutely keep asking!   

I'm sure you are desperate & frustrated and listening to a complaining wife.   She will chill out, just plan on making your own sandwich for dinner.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 14, 2018)

Hipshot said:


> I'll have to find blood tubes, and a lab . New fly in the ointment. The down doe has kidded this morning with help A real mess. She has stood only with help .  So I'm off for milk replacer and goat bottles . The lady gave me nipples .Really both sad and angry. I can put my hand around her backbone As of now both buckling's are alive .Can I save Them is the big question . I'm soaked to the bone raining all morning . Aw farm life never changes . Never bottle fed a goat before .Lots of calves. I will try to get them to nurse  colostrum when I return . And pictures when I can



That poor thing. Maybe you can save the bucklings, maybe not. But you will try and give it your best. Poor doe, starved and pregnant. Maybe now she can gain strength. Poor babies, they were starved internally, hope it turns out ok for them.  Sad, really sad. I know one thing, these goats have just grabbed the Golden Ticket, a home with YOU.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Dec 14, 2018)

Just makes ya wanna cry. That poor doe gave everything she had to those babies.   I sure hope you can get them all through this.


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 14, 2018)

You may want to look at wormx.com  (Click on link below)
*American Consortium for Small Ruminant Parasite Control*

This has quite a few articles and suggested dosages, however some are still not what is always recommended.
These are the leading researchers however, again, it comes down to experience in many cases. Hence the protocol differences I mentioned above. Example- If I had a goat with a tremendously high load and severly anemic and weak then I would not use their protocol. Most people fail to understand that using heavy deworming protocols can actually be toxic.


https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/6ef604_9079a9707ff94516878958da7857d275.pdf
1) Macrocyclic Lactones This drug group consists of avermectins (ivermectin, abamectin, doramectin, eprinomectin, selamectin) and milbemycins (milbemycinoxime, moxidectin). The macrocyclic lactones are used to treat both internal and external parasites and therefore there is a risk of overdose if using the same group to treat for worms and for mites for example. This is also the reason that there is widespread anthelmintic resistance to this group especially with Haemonchuscontortus. The residence time of the drug when administered by subcutaneous injection depends on body condition score (BCS) and hence fat reserves, as the product is taken up by the fat cells and released slowly into the blood stream. Cattle treated with 1.0mg/kg showed neurotoxicity and severe toxicosis with 2 to 8mg/kg. Sheep given a 3x overdose did not show adverse effects. Reported cases of toxicity are usually due to administration errors such as administering intra- muscularly or intra-venous and repeated unintended treatment due to poor animal identification. In thin or emaciated animals there will not be a slower release and more of the drug is released into the blood stream at one time than in animals that have fat reserves. Young animals do not have a very well developed blood-brain barrier and thus are more prone to adverse effects. Goats tend to deposit fat abdominally and so have less of a subcutaneous fat reserve. Oral dosing will be absorbed quicker into the blood. Therefore this group of drugs must be used with caution in young or thin animals and goats. There is no antidote available for treatment.


You will notice in that article fenben is part of the white dewormers class, most white dewormers are not given to pregnant animals but as mentioned above there are differences of when is safe and not. Fenbendazole has been used safely for years, in UK and other parts of the world it is even prescribed for pregnant dogs. 

I tend to use a lot of research from outside the states as the states does very little with goats, there is little money in goats so no funding. This is why so much is off label and requires a relationship with your vet.
Not all vets are goat savvy. 

I am a strong believer in developing relationship with your vet. Find a good one if you can- you may need to go through a few before you find one.


What worms have been identified? What is the FAMACHA also? I would look at the EPG counts and talk to your vet about red-cell. A goat that is severely anemic and extremely deficient can benefit from redcell.


----------



## Mini Horses (Dec 15, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Not all vets are goat savvy.
> 
> I am a strong believer in developing relationship with your vet. Find a good one if you can- you may need to go through a few before you find one.



AMEN !!

Goats & sheep tend to not "show" issues until far along, often too late.   So sick & gone fast.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 15, 2018)

Mini Horses said:


> Most people replying are NOT veterinarians.  They are experienced breeders and sometimes better able to answer than some vets, experience is a great teacher.
> 
> Many questions are to help them advise you and not create MORE issues, if possible.   Some symptoms can cover multiple situations.  Some meds are safe in late pregnancy and not in early, etc.   Some won't work on everything...…
> 
> ...


 As I said all advice or almost advice given here is great advice .  I guess you could say I'm old and take the direct approach. And questions that start with why require a long explanation most of the time. Questions that began with is , Require as direct an answer as possible . Yes? Just my way of thinking .  You have to remember that most people are really stumped, searching for answers and relie  on those with the experience to help. And TMI can really confuse some people  A vet like a doctor either is a general veterinary medicine   or specializes in one group or the other .Don't know a single one that specializes in goats. The one I know has a small animal practice but will do goats .Knowledge gained through   experience is  by far the greatest knowledge to have .    My vet works like this . When my wife asks him something about my horse , he asks her what do I say  Makes her mad too. I am a dumb ole country boy ,but have enough sense to know you can't show profit paying a thousand dollar vet bill on a two hundred dollar goat .  We are pretty sharp when it comes t doctoring cows and horses and hogs. Goats are new to us more or less . Last time my family had goats you could buy all you wanted for ten to fifteen dollars apiece .   Just want you to know how much I appreciate this web site, and respect those that dwell here . So thank you one and all for your help and advice   Don't mean to be rude just I'm to direct sometimes .   Goats are in quarantine.    poto bomb next


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 15, 2018)

Hipshot said:


> As I said all advice or almost advice given here is great advice .  I guess you could say I'm old and take the direct approach. And questions that start with why require a long explanation most of the time. Questions that began with is , Require as direct an answer as possible . Yes? Just my way of thinking .  You have to remember that most people are really stumped, searching for answers and relie  on those with the experience to help. And TMI can really confuse some people  A vet like a doctor either is a general veterinary medicine   or specializes in one group or the other .Don't know a single one that specializes in goats. The one I know has a small animal practice but will do goats .Knowledge gained through   experience is  by far the greatest knowledge to have .    My vet works like this . When my wife asks him something about my horse , he asks her what do I say  Makes her mad too. I am a dumb ole country boy ,but have enough sense to know you can't show profit paying a thousand dollar vet bill on a two hundred dollar goat .  We are pretty sharp when it comes t doctoring cows and horses and hogs. Goats are new to us more or less . Last time my family had goats you could buy all you wanted for ten to fifteen dollars apiece .   Just want you to know how much I appreciate this web site, and respect those that dwell here . So thank you one and all for your help and advice   Don't mean to be rude just I'm to direct sometimes .   Goats are in quarantine.    poto bomb next



LOL I get it, sometimes I just want a yes or no too. The hard thing is online you don't know each other (most of the time) and never know the level of experience. 
Can't wait to see pics.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 15, 2018)

All tings considered all is well more or less . All kids are alive now . Three of the four are being bottle fed . The doe is getting up and walking on her own, One of the two doelings almost died .Wasn't getting to nurse enough . We found her cold and dying when we went to feed the bucklings their first bottle .I was sick I was sure she was dead . My wife tried to get her to nurse while I fed the bucklings . I just knew it was hopeless . So I have to tell you about what an amazing person my wife is when it comes to saving baby animals . She was having a awful day. I didn't even call her about the bucklings .But she jumped right in and started trying to save the baby. She brought the dying doling in the house .Even she was  sure she was going to die. So what started at dark and ended at midnight was nothing short of a miracle. At least to me . While she worked with the baby I fetched. I was digging through cabinets. Looking for what she wanted most of which was very old ,and let over from when we raised bottle calves.  Many years and the baby little by little    


 

  looked like this at midnight head was shaking and still wouldn't nurse . We were feeding her with a 6cc syringe  . What ever we could get down her . Well colostrum was what it was .  by nine this morning 

She will kill me when she finds out I put this picture on here  . I have never know anyone with the touch she has . In my eyes she has no equal. This baby had given up . But she wouldn't . Now I have a spoiled baby goat in my house . Bed room to be exact.


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 15, 2018)

Top is the little doling at birth middle is her dam and twin sister last is the doe that has been down for a week Like I said she is getting up on her own and walking around . Won't nurse Bucklings though .


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 15, 2018)

Top is the first born doling second is the little hose goat and her bed buddy .Wife's ideal  bottom two the little bucklings. hard to take a picture and hold a bottle . they are very aggressive eaters . And the big doe has lost one side of her udder to mastitis At some point in her life . So couldn't produce enough milk in her poor condition . I should have taking the doling when she kidded . She favored the  first born .


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 15, 2018)

Awww. That made me tear up a bit. There really is something when you do all you can and hope beyond hope... I do believe in miracles! I do believe that some are gifted as well.

I guess you all already know but in case others reading this don't know... always get kid up to temp before trying to feed. Never feed a cold goat.  ---- Your wife must have done a heck of a job warming the kid! 

Glad these goats have you all to care for them. You may want to consider that redcell for the weak doe. 
Don't know if you've ever used it before. We keep a jug on hand. Red cell (for horses).


----------



## Southern by choice (Dec 15, 2018)

This just makes me so happy! I can't even explain. Just happy! 
Very pretty kids too!


----------



## Baymule (Dec 16, 2018)

Jumping up and down here, cheering and clapping hands! Yay! You still have a long way to go, but look how far you’ve come!


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Dec 16, 2018)

Now that i can see through my tears, just want to tell you both how happy i am that you not only saved these goats once....but twice. There are three things i just love, puppy breath, baby goats, and people with big hearts for animals....you guys are wonderful  wishing you much enjoyment with this herd that you have saved.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Dec 16, 2018)

Congrats!!


----------



## Mini Horses (Dec 16, 2018)

See -- your wife was annoyed at YOU, not the goats!!!!    I LOVE the happy ending for that little one.  Colostrum is a magical potion!

So happy for you and especially those goats.


YES-- I like direct answers, also.      As SBC says, it's different when someone whose farm, animals, methods, person you know asks.   You can almost KNOW what has been done, is there, etc. We all appreciate vets are expensive and sometimes iffy.   A farm must be able to survive "on their own" for most things.    Hey, I understand...am there, also old , do what I can/need    50 yrs with animals, pretty much done it all.   Even  C-section on a goat!

ETA:  Do you realize that if the previous owner couldn't get around to care for these does that pretty much every kid would have died???      You save so many lives!


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Dec 16, 2018)

Just stopped in to see if there were any more pictures, got all teared up again...you both are so special taking these goats on, ...I like direct answers too as I am also older , and don't  feel the need for the blah blah blah...
People like you...are the example of a true BYH  hero ! Thank you for sharing with us, and please continue this story...you have us following this journey


----------



## Hipshot (Dec 16, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> Awww. That made me tear up a bit. There really is something when you do all you can and hope beyond hope... I do believe in miracles! I do believe that some are gifted as well.
> 
> I guess you all already know but in case others reading this don't know... always get kid up to temp before trying to feed. Never feed a cold goat.  ---- Your wife must have done a heck of a job warming the kid!
> 
> ...


 So much to take in and much more to learn. Frist off my wife I could go on and on about . BS From UConn, Grand father farmed in Canada loved babies from the beginning. Ran the calving operation at Meadow Gold Dairy's in Hawaii on Oahu In 1979 80 and 81.Right out of college.  Then married me  Came to Tennessee to live . Said the same thing you said .Get the body temperature up first . Gave the kid a sub continuous  injection for dehydration .What was in that bottle I don't know . The label was gone . That was the main thing I was digging for . And fetching needles and syringes and mixing colostrum.  She tell me what and I do . Has an eye for cattle that would rival any man . Me I'm a professional ditch digger .I can't tell you how many times that line has gotten me in trouble .After moving here she couldn't find a job working with cattle .She raised calves for a few years and feeder pigs  . While I dug ditches, finally got a job managing a small animal hospital. Did that for ever .She  did that till 87 then we bought the farm and she worried about  money . Took a part time job as a file clerk at the county hospital .  That turned into a full time biller .That turned into a supervisor .That turned into a director . That lasted seven or eight years . Which in all totaled 19. New CEO no more job . Year off and Then traveled the country for three years I think. As a project manager . I didn't get to go . All the time still doing the billing for the animal hospital. Got paid  in supplies and what little work we needed .  Kids in high school and a special needs son . So I worked and took care of the farm and young'uns best I could .The point is  yes there is a point. No telling what kind of big  shot party I would be drug off to . When asked what I did well professional ditch digger was the answer . Boy that made her upset  Now where that came from is . Had friend who was a professional photographer .Had mountains  of magazines. I read hundreds of them and came across this . The definition of a professional is someone who makes their living at it .made sense to me  I guess your not supposed to say such things in front of corporate people  Why off topic ain't I. Don't dig many ditches now . So now I just say I'm A trophy husband .Really don't think I'm supposed to say that neither .



Mini Horses said:


> See -- your wife was annoyed at YOU, not the goats!!!!    I LOVE the happy ending for that little one.  Colostrum is a magical potion!
> 
> So happy for you and especially those goats.
> 
> ...


 Thank you and lives saved  has been topic of discussion all day . Even was told that they look so much better in just one week . Full bellies is all .Never did a C-section before . Guess I would try . Did it work ? Not sure what is going on One of the little bucklings wouldn't eat last feeding . His belly seemed full . I hoped maybe they were nursing the doe . I really can't tell looking at her teats. Formula is warming up I'm going back out in a few minutes to try again. All three  have had a touch of scours . Nothing major just a touch .Wife insist I keep them wiped and washed clean .  The doe that was down is just making remarkable  improvement .I really expected to lose her too.  I asked My wife today how she was going to explain the baby goat in her office tomorrow  She likes watching TV so today she went out at the bucklings  feedings and was allowed to prowl around. I have a little folding dog coral . If the weather is good tomorrow ,I'll set it up in the yard and let her stay out side a little while . She is soooo spoiled won't nurse for my wife, if she isn't holding her . You know how it is . We say we won't get to attached but do it anyway . We will do all we can for them. But really it's up to god.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 17, 2018)

These goats are going to not only pull through, but thrive with such devoted care.


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Dec 17, 2018)

So happy to read that everyone is improving


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 7, 2019)

Goats are a making me nuts . The wet weather we are having, is really causing my main flock to have reoccurring foot root . I get it clear and a week later it's back . All but the sick flock that is, their pen is well drained . The sick flock is holding their own . all but one  .A young buck is the only one lost he was just to far down and just wouldn't come back .The others  are looking about the same. But gaining ground slowly. Of the eight does five have kidded there are seven healthy kids running around .The last one last night . And it's one of those times when your glad it was a single birth. The little doe is just to poor for two. And still better than she was when she came here . I hope the others aren't with kid .  And the doe that was down is making body condition progress . Still bottle feeding the three .Feeding the does that are lactating ,milk production enhancing feed . And Wife insisted that I feed them all calf manna . So I'm mixing feeds and trying to make sure they each get what they need . Just to busy to take pictures . Maybe tomorrow . As soon as I can remember my camera . Flip phone don't take pictures


----------



## Southern by choice (Jan 8, 2019)

Hipshot said:


> The wet weather we are having, is really causing my main flock to have reoccurring foot root . I get it clear and a week later it's back .



@Goat Whisperer   isn't there something good you heard about?

On the rest...


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Jan 8, 2019)

I saw this in the premier 1 catalogue. Might be worth a try. 

https://www.premier1supplies.com/p/footcure


----------



## goatboy1973 (Jan 9, 2019)

greenfamilyfarms said:


> Safeguard is a really ineffective wormer around here. We only use it if we know the goat has tapeworms since it does work on them. You may want to ask for an alternative such as Ivomec Plus. Valbazen is good, but NOT for pregnant does.


Safeguard is effective if you follow the instructions to the letter...most people don't and it will fail every time. You are supposed to withhold food for 24 hours prior to giving Safeguard...give it on an empty stomach. After the Safeguard is given, put the goats out on a clean pasture. I have seen this scenario for years...a farmer or goat producer will take a herd of goats straight off pasture, run them straight through the chute and into the head gate and give their goats a big honkin' dose of Safeguard and then turn the goats out right back on an infected/ infested pasture and expect the Safeguard to clean the goats out and magically continue to kill worms indefinitely...not gonna happen! No dewormers on the market will work this way and if anyone tells you their dewormers works with a poor management strategy like this is a fool and wasting their money, and don't even consider buying a single goat from them. The key to fighting parasites being resistant to certain dewormers is to deworm with only the amount needed per their weight as directed on the labeling insert that comes with the dewormers, rotating to a clean pasture after deworming, and strict culling of all animals that need multiple deworminsg (poor parasite restance). The use of Copasure Copper Wire Capsule boluses in our herd every 6 months, constant free choice goat minerals, and pasture rotation insure that our goat herd is at its optimal health so that they can tolerate a parasite load because you will never ever eliminate every single internal parasite from a goat ever. It is impossible. So good management practices will go a long way to insuring you have a good healthy goat herd from years to come.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jan 10, 2019)

goatboy1973 said:


> Safeguard is effective if you follow the instructions to the letter...most people don't and it will fail every time. You are supposed to withhold food for 24 hours prior to giving Safeguard...give it on an empty stomach.


YES!  EMPTY STOMACH! 


goatboy1973 said:


> The key to fighting parasites being resistant to certain dewormers is to deworm with only the amount needed per their weight as directed on the labeling insert that comes with the dewormers,


Safegaurds labeling isn't for goats, it is for cattle so these instructions are not going to be effective. The leading research on Safegaurd has dosage 2-3x the dose on the label (the one labeled for goats anyway).  It is, from what I understand, glucose inhibitor and  basically "stuns" the parasites so must be given 3-5 days consecutively- 1 dose is useless and will be ineffective and cause resistance.   The labeling for most other dewormers is either not labeled for goats and therefore is given by vet recommendation. Unfortunately you have a huge range from vet to vet. Many also do no follow up.
There are also precautions for giving to very sick and emaciated goats as well as young goats but it seems this is bypassed and the "new standard" is to hit with 2 dewormers and hit them hard. This is killing goats but amazing how this is not discussed or connected to the treatment- it is just chalked up to the parasites. No supportive care is being given to many of these goats in severe shape. Very sad.


goatboy1973 said:


> The use of Copasure Copper Wire Capsule boluses in our herd every 6 months, constant free choice goat minerals, and pasture rotation insure that our goat herd is at its optimal health so that they can tolerate a parasite load because you will never ever eliminate every single internal parasite from a goat ever.


This is a difficult issue and knowing what your herd needs is critical. For some giving copper every 6 months has led to toxicity and death. In your herd this has been so beneficial! 
Water values also contribute as well as molybdenum.  

I also believe type of goat plays a big role. Meat goats and dairy goats are very different animals IMO.  I have seen quite a few dairy herds that actually had stress blooms every time they were rotated to different pastures as dairy goats are extreme creatures of habit. Sometimes it is crazy- moving them a fenceline over can cause huge stress. Certain breeds are a lot easier going than others when it comes to this, others act like they moved across the country. Where as most meatgoats don't care one bit about rotating and will fare far better with rotation.  

Years ago we went against all the "teaching" about pasture height. (dairy does)
We MOW! We have always mowed since first getting goats. We mowed all the time. Never had any parasitic issues. The years where we had such horrid rains where we couldn't mow because everything was so wet we had goats needing dewormed. When we couldn't mow the hot and humid conditions never allowed anything to dry out. We stood by this for years while many laughed at it mocked and blah blah blah. But we felt better to let that sun dry that stuff out underneath or we would just be creating  the prime environment.
Our Meatgoats we handled differently - but they were Kikos. They really only ate brush and vines and foliage. They pretty much never ate any grass.

Last year an "official" study came out saying... hmmm mowing is keeping parasites down.  
 I guess our method is now legitimate because someone with titles did an official study and it is no longer anecdotal.  

I think observation, paying attention to your herd, the conditions and understanding how your goats respond to treatments, environment are important.  Herd management is very individual. 

@goatboy1973  you have a lovely herd and it has been nice seeing you back on a bit!


----------



## goatboy1973 (Jan 10, 2019)

SBC, glad to be back again. We bush hog our paddocks in the Spring and summer when the parasites are the worst. We rotate to a clean pasture and the pasture that the goats just left is bush hogged and allowed to grow up for 3 months before goats are back on it again. My grandfather used an old sickle bar mower to clip our pastures when we had registered Simmental show cattle. He always said, "I clip the pastures to kill worms so that the cattle don't get wormy."


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 12, 2019)

goatboy1973 said:


> SBC, glad to be back again. We bush hog our paddocks in the Spring and summer when the parasites are the worst. We rotate to a clean pasture and the pasture that the goats just left is bush hogged and allowed to grow up for 3 months before goats are back on it again. My grandfather used an old sickle bar mower to clip our pastures when we had registered Simmental show cattle. He always said, "I clip the pastures to kill worms so that the cattle don't get wormy."


 Well when your pasture is the kind where the animals stand around waiting for a weed to grow. And then fight over it  Pasture clipping isn't a problem .Since goats are new to the farm . Sheep were pastured here some fifty years ago  . My main flock is in good health .They are just going through their second year here . These new goats are confined in quarantine. I'm not overly concerned about  what is in the ground at this point.  I agree pasture management is a must and the key to  parasite control .The goats graze on my hay fields after the fall cutting .They are Boer and Boer crosses ?????Little of this and that who knows . I really appreciate al the knowledge you and SBC have laid out for me to digest . The safeguard I am using says nothing of fasting the animal before treatment. Just  some info I came across on line  This person has a website only I'm no good at posting a link.I'll try.On second thought, I just figured out where all the spam emails I'm getting are coming from So forget the link .But I thought the information was worth keeping so I sniped it and saved it .It is a very aggressive treatment .I feel that if a animal is in very poor condition it just cant handle the treatment.


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 12, 2019)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I saw this in the premier 1 catalogue. Might be worth a try.
> 
> https://www.premier1supplies.com/p/footcure


 Thank you GW I will check this out . So to add a little more the deworming . Their dosage levels. I used the Ivomec and the safeguard together on the two young bucks that came with the flock .Both were stunted and undernourished One didn't survive the treatment . The other is thriving . I must say I like the liquid drench method of deworming . Trying to guess how much paste to give the goat just worries me .Also a thirsty goat will drink the safeguard mixed in a small amount of water right down . But I have always preferred tube deworming to paste . You know your getting he meds where they need to go . That would be my biggest pro on using liquid Safeguard labeled for goats . It mixes easily with water .   And then the bottle babies and some more new bucklings.With ther skinny momma. Baby  Girl just had to go with me to see the little Buckling my wife calls Oreo.


----------



## Southern by choice (Jan 12, 2019)

Yes the "newest" protocol is 2 classes
The "experts in the field" use to say rotate dewormers but then years later they said that was a bad idea and you do not want to do that.

You should always have an accurate weight before giving any medication of any type to an animal. We invested in a livestcok scale years ago. Cost $300. We use this all the time. ALL THE TIME! We monitor kid weights, rut weights, pregnancy, when we do any deworming, giving any supplements like copper and BoSE, redcell.

As far as the last part of working in one region or not... this always irritates me. There are many Boer farms and many goat farms around me- all swear that Safeguard doesn't work... lots of vets (not all but many) say it doesn't work... Fiasco Farm says it too.... UMMMM usually things don't work because the animals were raised with improper use, then people don't quarantine so they dump resistant parasites on the land and there ya go. People are really just getting proficient at breeding resistant worms because of lack of proper use.
No weights
wrong dosage
No quarantine
No fecals
No refugia
No follow up
Guessing the goat has worms yet never checking before treating

Often when people learn how to use Safeguard (empty stomach, proper dodage and follow up) they find it does work.
We do not do a complete empty stomach- we have dairy goats. They are milking, they need to eat, but we do fast for a period of time.

The issue with aggressive treatment on a very ill animal is the likelihood of death. It is in much data that no one seems to pay attention to. 
Then the death is chalked up to parasites.. well... yes and no. 

I look at it from this perspective- If the animal is on deaths door then really you don't have much to lose by going about it gentler and with support to the system. At least there is a fighting chance. When they are super infested and they are hit hard they rarely make it through treatment. We have seen where people hit hard with dewormers  (sometimes doing the 2 dewormer treatment at same time) and the goat wasn't in bad shape- it is just that is what they read so that is what they did and then their goat goes down and is now in a critical condition.

I am of the opinion that anytime you need to give a dewormer there should be supportive care given.


Your pictures make me so happy!


----------



## greybeard (Jan 13, 2019)

No one makes fun of ditches or those that dig them when the water is approaching their front door...


Hipshot said:


> So now I just say I'm A trophy husband.


Ain't nothing wrong with that either.


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 13, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes the "newest" protocol is 2 classes
> The "experts in the field" use to say rotate dewormers but then years later they said that was a bad idea and you do not want to do that.
> 
> You should always have an accurate weight before giving any medication of any type to an animal. We invested in a livestcok scale years ago. Cost $300. We use this all the time. ALL THE TIME! We monitor kid weights, rut weights, pregnancy, when we do any deworming, giving any supplements like copper and BoSE, redcell.
> ...


I really need a scale . I better start looking . I can't guess goat weight . Figured that out when I sold some young small goats . I was off by ten pounds on every one . I come here and learn more than  vet can tell me at a cheaper price . I have no doubt that the dewormer  killed the goat .I knew I was taking a chance . I have had friends lose horses to deworming .So it happens  in horses too. If blood worms  can cause colic they can cause death . Most horses that colic as a result of parasites ,if saved will die at a later time from the colic . Once dead tissue doesn't come back to life. If the infestation is sever  the lesions are large and who knows what the effect of the poison will have on them . I Haven't dewormed the does yet .  except the one that was down , and her only with safeguard . I've just been trying to get more weight on them . That alone is a struggle .As for the young bucks they were going to die if I didn't do something anyway . Food was just mostly going through them .So I weight guessed and didn't do fecals . Bad bad  shepherd I know  However the second little buck has a full stomach for the first time since I got them


----------



## Southern by choice (Jan 13, 2019)

Hipshot said:


> I really need a scale . I better start looking . I can't guess goat weight . Figured that out when I sold some young small goats . I was off by ten pounds on every one . I come here and learn more than  vet can tell me at a cheaper price . I have no doubt that the dewormer  killed the goat .I knew I was taking a chance . I have had friends lose horses to deworming .So it happens  in horses too. If blood worms  can cause colic they can cause death . Most horses that colic as a result of parasites ,if saved will die at a later time from the colic . Once dead tissue doesn't come back to life. If the infestation is sever  the lesions are large and who knows what the effect of the poison will have on them . I Haven't dewormed the does yet .  except the one that was down , and her only with safeguard . I've just been trying to get more weight on them . That alone is a struggle .As for the young bucks they were going to die if I didn't do something anyway . Food was just mostly going through them .So I weight guessed and didn't do fecals . Bad bad  shepherd I know  However the second little buck has a full stomach for the first time since I got them



You were in a very serious situation and IMO you did great and all you could do.  
With goats I prefer using redcell as support - can't use in sheep.

Look at - https://shop.smithcogoatandsheep.com/products/400lb-scale
on sale right now


----------



## Mike CHS (Jan 13, 2019)

That is the scale that we have and love it.


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 17, 2019)

Goes from bad to worse . Little buckling went cold Tuesday morning . Got him warm he will not nurse a bottle . We realized he has lice , as does the whole flock bathed him with Adams dog shampoo .I think I killed all the live adult lice . He was  drinking the bath water. He will nibble grain drink water from a tuna fish can . He won't drink milk from the same can. About to try a regular baby nipple. to see if he will nurse from that .Force feeding is a pain .  If he will not nurse a bottle tube feeding will be next .He is holding his own . Three days on antibiotic shots, didn't like the way his lungs sounded .Figure at least two more days.  Maybe bath again tomorrow for the lice . Picked up Permethrin 10 for the rest, if the rain will stop long enough to get them treated . Lice  Oh well what's one more problem ?   So is there a better way than spray and head sponge for the Permetrin ? Right now I wishing I had a good ole dipping tank. I could say I'll never buy with my heart again but that would be a lie.


Mike CHS said:


> That is the scale that we have and love it.


 Picture didn't come through . Or was it a link ?


----------



## greybeard (Jan 17, 2019)

Hipshot said:


> Picture didn't come through . Or was it a link ?


Mike was referring to the scale SBC had linked to.
https://shop.smithcogoatandsheep.com/products/400lb-scale


----------



## Southern by choice (Jan 17, 2019)

What anti biotic does the vet have you using?
I would be giving this guy Red cell- Just My Opinion.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Jan 17, 2019)

Cylence is a really good product for mites/lice. You apply it along the spine and the goats won’t get chilled. I prefer Cylence over premithrins in the winter for this reason.  I don’t remember the dose but SBC probably has it in her notes.


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 19, 2019)

greybeard said:


> Mike was referring to the scale SBC had linked to.
> https://shop.smithcogoatandsheep.com/products/400lb-scale


 Ok thanks I have moneys problems right now, as in wife says don't spend any more.Nice looking scale . I'll get one soon .



Southern by choice said:


> What anti biotic does the vet have you using?
> I would be giving this guy Red cell- Just My Opinion.


 We are using Norcillin penicillin G with procaine. 1cc once a day .If after the full treatment I don't see improvement I'll switch to LA200.I Started tube feeding him this morning. At least I can get 4 ounces in him every feeding  I'll have to pick some up some Red cell . I keep forgetting . Every trip is a rush there and back . I forget things I don't wright down.  



Goat Whisperer said:


> Cylence is a really good product for mites/lice. You apply it along the spine and the goats won’t get chilled. I prefer Cylence over premithrins in the winter for this reason.  I don’t remember the dose but SBC probably has it in her notes.


 Good to know .Injectable Ivermectin subq will work. Well it will help . Everything needs exact weight and a scale is a must get soon. I'm not familiar with Cylence . I don't know if I can get from my local co-op. I just haven't thought about a pour on ,never used one before . Always spray oral or injectable with cattle . Pour on makes good sense in cold weather .  Thank you .


----------



## Baymule (Jan 19, 2019)

If it's not one thing, it's another. You have a mighty BIG heart.


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 20, 2019)

Picked up Cylence At Tractor Supply today. Dose for cattle is Less than 400 lbs 8 ml for biting  lice Would that be 2 ml per 100lbs ? Or 1 ml per 50 lbs. Or .5 ml pre 25 lbs. And if goats metabolize  more quickly than cattle , would the dose be higher or lower ? Red cell is $25.00 a gallon So the milk replacer and dog food and Cylence, came home the red cell is still there .I need a little emoji with empty pockets turned out


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Jan 20, 2019)

@Hipshot you can look online at jeffers i bought a quart of red cell...


----------



## Hipshot (Jan 21, 2019)

B&B Happy goats said:


> @Hipshot you can look online at jeffers i bought a quart of red cell...


 I looked there today along with EBAY .Jeffers has a minimum shipping charge they almost all do . It really looks like ,I'll pick up the gallon at TSC. Going  to check the Farmers CO-OP and Bonnies first. With shipping I'll pay as much for a qt. as I will a gallon. Coyote came through while Joe was taking lunch and I'm missing a buckling  Doe could have hid him but I  The coyote tore through my dog kennel and killed a Black French Copper Maran  hen . I was bringing in the main flock and heard the chickens making a awful noise. I ran up to see the coyote just outside of the pen with the hen and no gun Got back to the flock and the buckling was not there , His twin doeling was , but he wasn't .I looked everywhere . Must have been more than one coyote So I'm depressed tonight. I'm going back out in a minute  to look some more .Need more dogs I guess .Coyotes here are relentless  . I set two snares with the hen in the middle . It moved the snare and got the chicken couldn't have been more than an hour latter . I want it dead I want it's family dead  I'm going to kill them all .


----------



## Baymule (Jan 21, 2019)

I can't like that post. We are surrounded by coyotes too. So far, the non climb horse wire and two Great Pyrenees have kept them away. Sorry about your hen and your buckling.


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Jan 21, 2019)

Get em Hipshot...I would be infuriated  too !..... sorry they got your animals.....


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Jan 21, 2019)

So sorry to hear this! That is terrible.  
Sounds like another LGD or two is a good idea.


----------

