# grain when pregnant



## Chickenfever (Feb 21, 2010)

So, I'm new to goats and have two mini manchas and they are both about 10 weeks pregnant.  I have been giving them each 1/2 cup of grain (purina goat chow) a day as well as free choice grass/alfalfa hay mix and free choice minerals. 
 I spoke with the previous owner today and she said I should NOT be feeding them any sort of grain unless they are lactating. She said I could make them fat and they will have a difficult delivery.  I'm really confused about what I should be doing.  
BTW they do not seem fat.


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## jeaucamom (Feb 22, 2010)

I have had my goats for all of 3 hours and knew nothing before I got them, that being said.. here is a great site

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/prenatalcare.html

so much info on there it will make your head spin and I really appreciate her love and holistic approach to her goats.


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## lilhill (Feb 22, 2010)

My Nigies always get grain, especially when pregnant and lactating (unless I'm drying them off).  I feed Purina Goat Chow and 100 days prior to projected due date, I gradually up their gain until they are getting 2-1/2 cups of grain a day, twice a day.  Mine have never had kiddings problems because of grain.  They need it to feed the babies while they are growing inside her and to keep themselves in condition.  So, my goats get the grain along with alfalfa pellets, free choice grass hay and loose goat minerals.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Feb 22, 2010)

giving our mini mancha grain was a huge mistake - now she is huge!

we started feeding grain in the fall so she'd be nice and healthy to be bred. and she totally ballooned. our breeder reminded me that the mini's are prone to this and to only feed the SMALLEST handful of grain - just "enough for her to taste it." 

but now that she is preggers we dont think we should cut her back to nothing.... but we've reduced it to just a handful a day. we also found out that she has been sneaking it from our full sized dairy gal so we are watching that. 

do they free range??


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## Chickenfever (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks so much for the replies.  NO, they do not free range, they are only getting what I give them.  

One of the goats has a very healthy looking belly, the other smaller of the two really does not have much of a belly.  Should I be concerned about this.  I have  read a big belly is a good thing on a goat and means they have a healthy rumen.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 22, 2010)

The size of the belly really doesn't have much to do with whether or not they're fat..  You're right -- the 'belly' is the rumen, and a big rumen is a good rumen.  For me, the bigger the better..  

It's entirely possible to have a goat with a huge belly who's also too thin, or a goat without much rumen development who's too fat.  Or anywhere in between, really..

What folks need to be looking at is 'body condition score' -- BCS.  Anything scoring 2 or less is a problem..  I like 3-3.5.  I have a couple that I'm working on individually that are maybe 2.5's, and some that are probably closer to 4's.  I have one that's like a BCS 27 on mostly grass hay and a handful of grain.  She's down from about a BCS 43, though, so we're headed the right way with her.  

Seriously...she's large.  Just a very, very easy keeper.

Here's a really good link for BCS and goats.

Here's another good one, with a video.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 22, 2010)

Since most of sheep/goat fetus development happens in the last month or so of pregnancy, I usually only give very little grain until that time.  Then I slowly up it.  My Ober is at a good weight. She's due March 3rd and is now getting about a lb of grain per day with free choice hay.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Feb 22, 2010)

aggieterpkatie - thanks for listing this strategy.... great info! definitely will do this next year.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 22, 2010)

ohiofarmgirl said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie - thanks for listing this strategy.... great info! definitely will do this next year.


cmjust0 also had great info. It really depends on the individual animal.  Some people don't feed grain until freshening, some feed year round.


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## Chickenfever (Feb 22, 2010)

cmjust0, 
wonderful information, thank you.  I feel this will help me a lot.  So, basically It's OK to give grain as needed to keep them at ideal weight is what I'm getting from this.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 22, 2010)

That's what I do..  Or try to do, at any rate.  Like I said, I still have a couple that have proven difficult to keep above like about what I'd call a 2.5, and others that are difficult to keep under about a 3.5-4..  Really just depends on the goat, which is why individual BCS evaluation -- if possible -- is a really awesome tool.

It's not always as easy as cutting some down and bumping some up on supplementation, but I feel the "trying" part is a worthy venture.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 22, 2010)

We evaluate each goat on whether or not to grain and how much. For example, Gracee is thin and a hard keeper all the time, so she gets 2 pounds of grain daily, year round, plus 1/4 cup a day of corn oil. Flora tends to get overweight very easily, so she has not gotten grain at all for the last year except for just a mouthful to make her think she had something while she was being milked--but she's carrying quads right now we think, and has started losing a bit of condition now that she's in the final weeks of pregnancy, so she is going to start getting about 1/2 cup a day of grain tomorrow. Both are full sized LaMancha. Bonnie, the mini-Mancha, is a 9 month old first freshener, we're not sure how far along she is in her pregnancy since it was an accident. She's not getting grain at all, per the advice of a livestock vet, to keep her kid's birth weight down, as studies show that grain during pregnancy can increase birth weights in all kinds of ruminants. She's young and tiny, and was bred by a large buck, so we're not taking chances with her. I never need to grain my bucks, even when they are working hard at breeding or packing through the mountains. They both tend to be fat little piggies. 

I evaluate my goats' body condition score pretty often and adjust feed when needed. I feed them as much hay as they want while they are pregnant. It is easy to miss a thin goat when she is pregnant, that big belly can make her look healthy when really she is starving. It's easy to miss even when you know what you are looking for...we made that mistake this year. Our doe Gracee lost her triplets because we did not notice that she was so dangerously thin--she had a big belly, a healthy appetite, and a heavy winter coat, so she looked ok and her bones weren't obviously sticking out because of all the hair--and now we are having to work hard to get her back to a good weight because she looks like a skeleton.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Flora tends to get overweight very easily, so she has not gotten grain at all for the last year except for just a mouthful to make her think she had something while she was being milked--but she's carrying quads right now we think, and has started losing a bit of condition now that she's in the final weeks of pregnancy, so she is going to start getting about 1/2 cup a day of grain tomorrow.


If I were in your shoes -- and I've got some fatties bred right now, so I probably will be -- I'd make it my goal to stop that condition loss ASAP.  Losing condition means burning fat for energy, and burning fat for energy is precisely what leads to pregnancy toxemia.  Turning fat to glucose is incomplete conversion and produces ketones..  The ketones build up to toxic levels in the blood...poof, toxemia of pregnancy.

I know you know all that..  If you didn't, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing now.

What I'm driving toward, though, is that I'd personally start off with more like _half a pound, at least_, rather than half a cup, and see what happens.  Half a pound isn't much, really, but half a cup is hardly anything..  And as you know, it takes at least a few days to evaluate the effect of trying out different quantities of grain..  A few days, plus another few days, plus another few days of a continual 'slow burn' condition loss while you work to adjust her grain....well, days make weeks pretty quickly.  If you're _already_ in the final weeks, you could be down to the wire before you really figure out how much she needed to stop stripping off her own bodyfat.

This is one situation where I'd definitely err on the side of overfeeding..  I know overfeeding can lead to big babies, but I'd still rather overfeed and put myself in the position of having to adjust feed _downward_ rather than getting myself into a cycle of bumping feed, waiting, and re-evaluating until one day it's like...uh oh...she's reluctant to rise, not interested in her feed, and her breath smells sweet.

This may just be me being a worrywart, though...entirely possible.  And I don't know your goat at all, either.  And heck, when you say 'cup,' I'm assuming _dry measuring cup_ when it could be the ubiquitous biggie size Wendy's cup so many of us use to scoop grain.  (for the record, we use a Taco Tico cup..  they have sturdy cups..    I do know that one Taco Tico cup holds about 1.2lbs, though.. )

I dunno...sometimes when I complete a post, I read it back and think "Meh...  What I should have said was _nothing_..."  This is one of those times, but I'm leaving it anyway..


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 23, 2010)

Just how much do you have to overfeed to create a problem?  I know that increasing feed suddenly and by too much can cause serious issues, but I'm in the same situation.  One of my pregnant does (our first) has been losing condition and we've added BOSS and calf manna to her grain ration to try and get her back where she needs to be.  They're also getting beet pulp.  She's due late March- April so I don't want to miss the boat but I'm nervous about overfeeding.  

She's a nigi, so what would be considered a safe range for bumping up her feed then cutting back down if necessary?


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Just how much do you have to overfeed to create a problem?  I know that increasing feed suddenly and by too much can cause serious issues, but I'm in the same situation.  One of my pregnant does (our first) has been losing condition and we've added BOSS and calf manna to her grain ration to try and get her back where she needs to be.  They're also getting beet pulp.  She's due late March- April so I don't want to miss the boat but I'm nervous about overfeeding.
> 
> She's a nigi, so what would be considered a safe range for bumping up her feed then cutting back down if necessary?


I don't have any nigerians, and I don't know what a safe range would be..  Probably depends on the goat...or perhaps more accurately, it would depend on the bacteria in the goat's gut.  All I can say is what I plan to do when I see this start happening, and that's ramp it up until it _stops_ happening.  Period.  If I give someone the sharts as a consequence, so be it, because I'd personally MUUUCH prefer to deal with a simple case of dietary sharts than full-on pregnancy toxemia.

Look....I know a lot of folks are really super stressy about pushing too much grain, too fast, and it's a valid concern on account of bloat, acidosis, and other rumenal and GI upsets.....but frankly, I think the concern is a wee bit overstated -- especially in cases of late bred does..

Let me put it this way.....

I had two younger does that needed extra grain, as they were getting pushed out of the feed pans every evening, pretty consistently..  They were getting a few ounces, once a day, at the absolute most, and they were fighting tooth and nail just to get that.  Some nights, all they'd manage to do would be to run from one pan to another to another and get beat out every time before all the grain was gone and everybody ran to the hayfeeder.

So, I pulled them aside one night into a seperate stall and set what was probably a pound and a half of grain in front of them...just BAM, here ya go.  Eat up.  Between the two, there was maybe 120lbs of goat.

No problem.  

No bloat, no scours, no acidosis...nothing.

After a few days of that, they both started picking up some condition.

My thinking was that their rumens already had the capability of 'understanding' the grain because they'd been exposed to it, and while it _may_ throw the bacterial balance out of whack for a while to see a whole bunch extra and they _may_ loosen up a little...or a lot, who knows...I still didn't feel like it was enough grain to cause a bloat or lead them into full-blown acidosis.  Pure conjecture, of course, but hey...you wanna make omelettes, you gotta break a few eggs.  It's the wild wild west in goatietown...sometimes you just gotta DO stuff..  Throw a little poop against the wall and see what sticks, ya know?

I've done that same thing with several of the others.  Haven't had a problem with any of them, either.  I've even been known to take those same two aside on Saturday afternoons when I'm there during the day and throw them about a pound and a half or so, right out of the blue, then repeat it in the evening like normal.  Just BAM -- from 3/4lb each to 1-1/2lb each, in a day.  And then back to 3/4lb the next day, and for the whole next week.

Are they tricky animals?  Absolutely.  Are they made of glass?  Well, sometimes it really seems that way, but ultimately...not really.

Am I advising that everyone run out and double, triple, quadruple their goats' grain all of a sudden?  Absolutely not..  I'm simply saying that, IN MY OPINION, the advice that an increase in grain must come one extra pellet per day over the course of 8-1/2 years or whatever is, perhaps, a little overly cautious..



Normally, I wouldn't even bring it up for fear that people would run out and do something truly stupid...ya know, like I'd do.   

However...when I see people placing more concern on upping grain too quickly than on a late-bred does stripping off body condition...I feel compelled to pipe up and at least share my experiences with bumping grain.

That's all.  

Oh, and I'm not a vet, either.  I have no formal training whatsoever.  I'm just some yahoo on the intarwebs, so take my advice for exactly what it cost ya -- ZILCH.

Ok, that's really all.   

Alright, one other thing..  If any of you come back and say "I bumped my goat's grain up and now she's squirting like a goose...this is YOUR FAULT, CM!!!"...  Well, rest assured that it isn't.  Y'all control your animals..  You do what you think is best.  All rights reserved.  Your mileage may vary.  Available only at participating locations.  Offer not valid in Rhode Island.  Must be 18 to enter.  Ask your parents permission.  Be home by 11.  Your dead grandmother can see you doing that.

All that stuff.

Just sayin.

Ok, that's _really_ really all.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 23, 2010)

I've done some wonky feeding amounts sometimes on purpose and sometimes not on purpose, and I've NEVER had an animal so much as scour from grain.  I used to be a nervous nelly, but I think that my animals wouldn't have a problem if I suddenly decided to go home today and feed double (or maybe even triple) the amount of grain they normally get.  Not that I'm going to do that, because I am a tight wad and don't like wasting grain, but if I did, I don't think they'd have an issue.  I tend to think acidosis and scours is a problem when they get a HUGE amount of grain, like if they busted into the feed room and gorged themselves.  

Something you can also do as a precaution is always feed hay first.  It helps give them a little buffer in the rumen.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I've done some wonky feeding amounts sometimes on purpose and sometimes not on purpose, and I've NEVER had an animal so much as scour from grain.  I used to be a nervous nelly, but I think that my animals wouldn't have a problem if I suddenly decided to go home today and feed double (or maybe even triple) the amount of grain they normally get.  Not that I'm going to do that, because I am a tight wad and don't like wasting grain, but if I did, I don't think they'd have an issue.  I tend to think acidosis and scours is a problem when they get a HUGE amount of grain, like if they busted into the feed room and gorged themselves.
> 
> Something you can also do as a precaution is always feed hay first.  It helps give them a little buffer in the rumen.


I couldn't agree more.


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## AlisonJ_SFW2 (Feb 23, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> [
> 
> That's all.
> 
> ...




I don't have goats, yet (DH says NO MORE ANIMALS), but I'm learning a ton just from lurking here.  And I've already learned to look out for CMJust's posts.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 23, 2010)

AlisonJ_SFW2 said:
			
		

> I don't have goats, yet (DH says NO MORE ANIMALS),


Will you tell him to call me?

Not for me to talk him into more animals, mind you...I just want to know how I can go about enforcing the NO MORE ANIMALS rule! 

See....I wanted cattle.  My wife was the one who wanted goats.  So, we compromised and got goats.

I do love goats, though.  Don't tell my wife, but it's true.  They're interesting and challenging and have forced me to do something I really love to do anyway...LEARN.

But, seriously...my wife's talking about maybe wanting to keep a doeling from this one, and a doeling from that one, and I'm like...lady...if we keep it up, pretty soon *we'll* be eating hay *with* the goats.

Problem is...she doesn't care.  She'd eat hay with the goats if it meant the difference between keeping a few doelings and not.

How do you argue with that?!?  





> but I'm learning a ton just from lurking here.  And I've already learned to look out for CMJust's posts.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 23, 2010)

cmjust, thanks for the information.  Half a cup I guess for me is actually half of the recycled green bean can I scoop grain with...I thought it was a cup total in one scoop, but it's really bigger than that now that I look again...so I guess she's getting a cup or so. It is certainly less than most people would feed her, (my neighbors feed their does free-choice oats as much as they want, which is way too much grain!) but even though she's losing a little weight, she's also still overweight, so I'm going to start there and increase slowly if she needs it. She was so fat when we got her that we thought she was pregnant, and a year later I am still trying to get her to lose weight. With Flora, we err on the side of underfeeding since she balloons up very quickly. (Last year she was milking a gallon a day, eating nothing but hay, and GAINING weight!) She's not very active because her belly and udder are uncomfortably big now, and she's eating probably 8 pounds of hay free-choice a day. I feed her hay out of a bucket in her private shed so she doesn't have to fight the other does or expend much energy to get a meal. We're two weeks away from her due date now and I am monitoring closely for toxemia since she is a touch lethargic and lays down a lot--which I think is just because she doesn't want to stand long on her poor little feet with so much extra weight--just like a pregnant human I guess. And it's cold and rainy out, so I'd want to stay in bed too if I was her!


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## chandasue (Feb 23, 2010)

CM you're crackin' me up!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 24, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I had two younger does that needed extra grain, as they were getting pushed out of the feed pans every evening, pretty consistently..  They were getting a few ounces, once a day, at the absolute most, and they were fighting tooth and nail just to get that.


Tooth and hoof?  

I'm glad to hear it since my inclination is to be overly cautious, I've only had these guys since January.  I'm sure as time passes without any major emergencies I'll get a little more adventurous.


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## Chickenfever (Feb 24, 2010)

It's just hard when you're new to goats, I'm so afraid of messing something up.  I'm used to chickens, you can feed them anything!


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## cmjust0 (Feb 25, 2010)

chickenfever said:
			
		

> It's just hard when you're new to goats, I'm so afraid of messing something up.


It's hard when you're new to it, and when you genuinely care about and are attached to the animals.  The attachment part is what makes it hardest, I think.

A friend of mine had been in goats for 20+ years...far longer than me.  He said people often ask him "How'd you ever learn so much about a goat?"

His stock answer is "I've killed a whole bunch of'em."  

Words like that are what cause people with a lot of caring and precious little experience to be so cautious around their new goats..  It's an understandable reaction, for sure.

Thing is, though...he's not exaggerating or purely making a funny.  Goats die, and a lot of times -- a LOT of times -- the reason they've died can be traced back to husbandry in some way or another..  So many times it's either something you did that you shouldn't have, or something you should have done that you didn't..  

I think you just have to work hard enough at it to genuinely feel like you're doing everything you can to keep them safe and healthy, while at the same time be accepting of the cold, hard fact that there's certain knowledge and certain practices that are only learned through experience.  Unfortunately, those experiences sometimes take goats away from us.

It's heartbreaking, but ultimately...that's just the way it is.


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