# Colors?



## Edge of the Wilderness (Aug 18, 2018)

So I am new to rabbits (with the intent to breed for meat vs pets).  I'd like to make records for my rabbits as I start on this endeavor.  I'm trying to get a better visual understanding of various colors to properly identify my rabbits.  I'm sure once I have an acceptable visual understanding that I'll try to tackle understanding the genetic portion of it, but I've been having a tough time finding a good visual guide.  A lot of what I've found is not complete or it is very difficult to tell what the differences are between some colors.  Does anyone know of a good visual guide that maybe also includes descriptions so that I can understand some of the subtle differences? 

I have 3 different NZ crosses: NZ/California, NZ/Satin, and NZ/Flemish.  I know I have REW and pointed white (although I'm not sure the exact color classification of the point, some are darker than others).  I think I have chestnut and chinchilla, but again some are darker than others and when I look in the fur, on some I can only seem to see 2 colors vs 3.  I've also seen people list more than one color of chinchilla and all & all I'm starting to feel overwhelmed and confused by colors, lol.

I'd like to try to gain my own understanding first, but I may get to a point where I post up some pictures for others to help with.  Any guidance is appreciated. Thanks in advance!


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## Bunnylady (Aug 20, 2018)

I wish I could be more helpful; have you seen my thread:

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/rabbit-coat-color-101.38256/

I would have loved to have posted pics to show all the things I talked about, but I've never been one to take pictures, so I don't have a backlog of pictures and I have only so many colors in my rabbitry now. Some, you'd almost have to know what you are looking at to know what you are looking at - my avatar being a good example. Most people would probably look at that young Mini Rex and say, "Red." Actually, he's an Amber, but if there hadn't been a Red baby in the same litter with him, I might not have spotted the difference. Some of the sites I have visited seem pretty good, but then I catch them posting a picture of a Smoke Pearl and calling it a Blue, or asking for a picture of a Gold-Tipped Sable Steel, or doing something else that makes me think that they don't even know what they think they know.  

Some of the breeds you are working with are notorious for carrying unexpected genes. Both New Zealands and Californians often throw Steel, a gene that writes its own rules and confuses a lot of people.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Aug 21, 2018)

I had looked through your coat color thread and even seen a few other genetics articles before coming over to BYH.  I was just struggling a bit because I didn't feel I had a good visual foundation.  It doesn't help when it seems so many different naming conventions get used on the pictures I am able to find or that the lighting is such that it is difficult to tell what the difference is between some of the colors.

I suppose I will need to post up pictures and try to start with an understanding from that.  What kind of pictures can I provide to be the most helpful?

Also, where do things like "frosted" or "satin" fit in with this.  Are those separate things from the traits your thread discussed or are they just duplicate namings of other things?  Some of my rabbits have deeper colored/shinier fur than others.

I'll see if I can't start getting some photos together today.


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## Bunnylady (Aug 21, 2018)

"Satin" is the actual structure of the hair shaft. The outermost layer of the hair shaft, the cuticle, is thinner on Satins than on rabbits with the normal coat. The result is an almost glassy sheen and a brighter color because of things like reflection and refraction, not because of differences in pigmentation.

Frosted, as in "Frosted Pearl," is a specific combination of genes in the A series, C series, and E series that together get all of the pheomelanin out of the coat, and all but a tiny bit of the eumelanin, so the coat is almost all white with just a little bit of color on the tips of the hairs. The ultimate expression of this is the Ermine, which has a completely white coat and brown or gray eyes.

Sometimes, you get effects that are not the result of the main genes, but other genes that alter the expression in small ways. This is why some folks insist that you should only breed certain colors to themselves; breeding any ol' colors together, you can get colors that can be identified, but that aren't the ideal expression of those colors, at least, not for that particular breed. As an example, I've seen Torts that were anything from bright orange to a deep, almost chocolaty looking red, with points ranging from almost solid black to barely gray. Which shade is preferred depends on the breed, and unless you are concentrating on that color, it can vary widely even within a litter.

Part of the trouble with names is that they vary from breed to breed. As an example, you won't find a "Chinchilla Flemish Giant," in the FG, that color is called "Light Gray." But a Gray Dutch is pretty much anyone else's "Chestnut" - go figure, especially since what we call "Blue" is what a non-rabbit person thinks of as "gray."

And then you get breed-specific variations on colors. I mentioned that in some breeds, Reds have red bellies, while in others, they don't. The Red Mini Rex doesn't have the wide-band gene to help get the dark pigment off the hair shaft, so they often wind up with a little bit of it on the very tips of the hairs. If it's black, it really catches the eye, so the best Red Mini Rex have Chocolate genes (brown blends in with red better than black does). But knowing what is just a tiny tip of brown on the hair and what is a band is how you know an Amber from a Red.

I understand your frustration. I am a visual learner, too, and when a picture isn't detailed enough to show something, or worse yet, is mislabeled, it can get pretty confusing. And of course, a google search can bring up everything under the sun, including things that have nothing to do with the subject at all!


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Okay, a couple weeks ago I finally had a couple of my kids help me try to get pictures of all of the rabbits (except the REW's, I know what those are.) I'm going to work on transferring them to my pc to upload hopefully today and I'll do my best to give information/context that may be helpful with the photos.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Soo.. Rabbit #1.  The first couple rabbits I tried to photo solo so hopefully they are good enough, if not I can always redo them.  This is a California/New Zealand cross.  One of the pictures you can see a REW littermate.  

I didn't want to make the post take up too much space so click the thumbnails to see the full-size image.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #2.  Again, this is one I tried to photograph solo.  This is a littermate to #1.  

I have to pick up my kids from school, but hopefully, I can post some more after I get home.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #3. Again, littermate to the first two.  Most of the rest of the rabbit pictures were done with the assistance of my kids.  They snapped the pics while I handled them.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #4.  Last littermate of the previous 3, that I photographed.  The rest from that litter are REW.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #5.  This is a Flemish/New Zealand cross.  Unrelated to the previous litter.  He has a REW littermate.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #6.  This is a Satin/New Zealand cross.  It is a half-sibling to Rabbit #5.  This and the 7 rabbits that follow are from the same litter.  

The kids had a few technical issues while we were photographing this group.  A couple of the rabbits had to have some shots redone.  I think I assigned the re-takes to the correct rabbits.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #7.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #8.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 21, 2018)

Rabbit #9.

I'll try to finish uploading the other 4 rabbits tomorrow.


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## Bunnylady (Sep 22, 2018)

So far, I'm seeing pointed whites and chins (and maybe one chestnut). Part of the problem with all the variation is the usual thing of baby colors sometimes being a bit weird, and having to wait for the junior coat to come in to really see what the animal looks like (though it appears that you have junior coats coming in on some, which means you will know soon). 

Another thing is the mixing of the breeds; since some breeds work with certain genes to get their particular variant of a color, you may get more red, or less lacing, or a different undercolor - things that may make that color a bit different than the generic description of that color. 

Some variation is normal, even within a breed. When you read the breed standards, some things may be listed as faults for one breed, and DQ's for another, or the same fault may be just mentioned for one while for another it is considered a severe fault (meaning a deduction of several points). Sometimes, what is desirable for one breed is a fault in another, so you need to know your breed's standard when showing!

With the Cali/NZW crosses - you might have one blue, or they may all be black, it's hard to say. The Himalayan/Pointed White gene (ch) is dominant to the Ruby-eyed White gene (c), but not completely; the fact that these guys are chc means the points will be lighter and smaller than on an animal that is chch. Plus, this is a temperature-sensitive color, and summertime warmth will affect the expression. Eumelanin is actually very dark brown in color, not_ quite_ jet black, and when you thin it down, that fact becomes pretty obvious and can cause confusion. 

The gene for chinchilla (cchd) takes most of the pheomelanin (red/yellow pigment) out, and a bit of the eumelanin out, too; it isn't usually as obvious in the agouti-patterned chins, but once again, though we talk about chins as being black and white the "black" isn't true black, and the "white" is really more of an off-white or cream color.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 22, 2018)

Rabbit #10.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 22, 2018)

Rabbit #11.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 22, 2018)

Rabbit #12.


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 22, 2018)

Rabbit #13.

This is the last one.  The primary reason we got these rabbits was to breed for personal meat.  I know the satin/nz and flemish/nz may not be 100% ideal for those purposes, but we live in a remote area and couldn't find many options in a 2hr radius.  I respect the animals that provide for us and with that in mind I try to waste as little as possible.  The thought was to come up with a use for the pelts and in that aspect I was trying gain a better understanding of colors and color genetics.  I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and always enjoy gaining a better understanding of the animals we work with.  Thank you!


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## Edge of the Wilderness (Sep 22, 2018)

As a reply to @Bunnylady, at what age do they get their junior coat?


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## AmberLops (Mar 21, 2019)

Rabbit 6 looks like a Squirrel and 7, 11 and 12 look like Chestnuts. 8, 9, 10 and 13 look like Chinchillas


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## Bunnylady (Mar 21, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Rabbit 6 looks like a Squirrel and 7, 11 and 12 look like Chestnuts. 8, 9, 10 and 13 look like Chinchillas



6 is a Chin, not a Squirrel. Squirrel is a dilute Chin; the ear lacing and tail are much too dark for a dilute.


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## AmberLops (Mar 22, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> 6 is a Chin, not a Squirrel. Squirrel is a dilute Chin; the ear lacing and tail are much too dark for a dilute.



True...just looks a lot like my squirrel lop


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## Bunnylady (Mar 22, 2019)

Pictures can do weird things, and (as I said in a previous post) baby colors can be muddled, poor representatives of the mature coat color. For these reasons, you have to look for details, not go on generalized impressions.

This is the picture of #6's nose:






Those whiskers are_ *black*_. No dilute has black whiskers; they are either blue or white on a dilute. Therefore, no matter how washed-out the rest of the coat may appear, this has to be a full-colored rabbit, so it can't be a Squirrel (dilute Chinchilla). Chins can vary quite a bit, there is a very light variation known as a "Ghost Chin" that is so light, it resembles a Frosty, but as long as the pigment that is present is black, not blue, it isn't a dilute and therefore not a Squirrel.


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