# MONEY.



## marie_p (May 31, 2010)

How did you figure you could afford your herd?

We're a couple of college students with Real Jobs who would really rather move onto a farm, please, but we think having A Real Degree is a responsible back-up plan. We're kind of poor (supporting two of us and our toddler does that to you), but we're enthusiastic gardeners, and we think we can afford a house cheaper than the apartment we're in right now. I've got this grand plan that we can raise meat rabbits, layers and goats.

So we're doing the math about fencing, day-old chicks, feed, housing and suchlike. I'm the Excel Spreadsheet sort of person, but I need a reality check.

So how did y'all figure what you could afford? If your goats are for profit (dairy, cheese, meat), what kind of planning/thinking/calculating went into that?


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## chandasue (May 31, 2010)

We went into it with no intention of making any money from our backyard farm, strictly as a hobby for myself (spoiled I am) raising Nigerian Dwarf goats as our milk supply and chickens for eggs and occasional meat, along with fruit trees and a big veggie garden. As far as animals go the fencing and housing is the most expensive part IMO (although I'm sure it can be done cheaper than the route we took), so if you can find a place that already has something set up you might be saving yourself some $$ and a lot of work that way. But I've been pleasantly surprised that selling the babies pretty much pays for the feed so they sort of pay for themselves at that point. I really haven't sat down and figured out what we were paying for organic milk, cheese, eggs, chicken and before verses what I'm getting from my animals and garden now but our grocery bill is noticeably less. I'm pretty sure we're saving money in the long-LONG run and I feel good knowing what's gone into them, and hence into us, rather than throwing money away at the store on less nutrient dense food. So even if you just start out with a big garden (seeds are cheap) and maybe selling the extras at the local farmers market or corner veggie stand, that's still money ahead to save for chickens and goats while you work "real" jobs. I can't say if it'll ever actually turn a profit but any amount of self-sufficiency is cool and a worthwhile adventure.


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## patandchickens (May 31, 2010)

marie_p said:
			
		

> We're a couple of college students with Real Jobs who would really rather move onto a farm, please, but we think having A Real Degree is a responsible back-up plan. We're kind of poor (supporting two of us and our toddler does that to you), but we're enthusiastic gardeners, and we think we can afford a house cheaper than the apartment we're in right now. I've got this grand plan that we can raise meat rabbits, layers and goats.


My big two pieces of advice would be: if you just *think* you can do it financially (i.e. if it will be a stretch, and require major changes, and leave you with no cushion), then perhaps you shouldn't. Remember there can be a lot of big unexpected expenses once you own rather than rent... unpredictable major house repairs (roof falls in, sewer backup, etc), large property tax increases, dip in housing market resulting in house being worth less than you paid, change in personal circumstances resulting in inability to pay mortgage but can't sell house fast enough, etc. 

Second, don't plan on any animals besides EITHER chickens OR rabbits (I mean, you may eventually add them someday, but don't figure on getting them right off), and plan on them being a recreational thing not a moneymaker. Otherwise you are likely to dig yourself a financial hole right then and there.



> So we're doing the math about fencing, day-old chicks, feed, housing and suchlike. I'm the Excel Spreadsheet sort of person, but I need a reality check.


The major expense for chickens is housing; the major expense for any other livestock is fencing. Both have to be GOOD, not some weebly ol' thing inherited from a previous owner of the property.

So how much it'd cost you to keep <whatever animals> depends quite heavily on how a particular property is currently set up. If there is goat-safe fencing and a 3-sided shed that doesn't flood, your only expenses would be (usually fairly minimal) operating expenses; but if you have to build fencing and a shed yourself, the price goes way up. Same with chickens, w/r/t a really good predatorproof coop and run.

The actual expenses of KEEPING these type animals are pretty low (at least on a per capita basis), more or less in the realm of "if you have to figure in how much it will cost, you really shouldn't be contemplating doing it in the first place". For instance, right now I am spending something around $25 per chicken per year on feed, and it could certainly be done cheaper.

It seems to me that by far the ideal situation would be not to BUY a farm but to RENT one, or an apartment or bungalow on someone else's farm property, or a house on a couple acres. Obviously you would want to make sure ahead of time that the landlord was ok with your gardening and keeping these animals, and it can take some lookin' and waitin' to run into the right situation, but if you could find the right situation it might be a really good interim measure for you.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat


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## ksalvagno (May 31, 2010)

I would start with one type of animal. Probably chickens. Depending on your area depends on feed costs. I have 19 chickens and go through a 50 pound bag of feed per week during the winter months, getting a little more out of my 50 pounds during spring/summer/fall when they can free range. Remember, what you put into an animal is what you get out. Poor feed, poor egg layers. If you get into other animals, you need to figure vet costs. The biggest thing is starting out very slowly with only doing one thing at a time. 

Whether to buy now or not depends on what the market in your area is like. You may be able to find a place that is cheaper than your rent. But like Pat said, once you own the place, you own the repairs and anything that goes wrong.

Quite frankly, like Pat said, you may just want to start out with a garden and get your gardening techniques down pat. Animals really do cost more money than you think and if you have to figure out costs on a spreadsheet, then you probably aren't ready to get animals. You need a wide margin for animals, even chickens and rabbits.

Good luck. We don't want to squelch your dream and if you put your mind to it, I'm sure you can swing it. Just don't get into too much. Do one thing at a time and add as you get comfortable with current projects.


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## michickenwrangler (May 31, 2010)

My chickens pay for themselves with egg sales ... but ONLY feed and grit and oyster shells. The housing, fencing and other equipment has not been made up yet. Granted, I only charge$1.50 a dozen and if I was looking to make a profit, I would certainly have to charge more. Other chicken owners in our area charge $1.50-.200/dozen.

I also can some of our food. We no longer buy pickles, salsa, tomato sauce, pie filling and dried fruit. Again, with canning supplies, vinegar and added electricity costs, we probably break even. Granted, jars are a one time investment, but you have to buy lids, periodically replace bands, Fruit Fresh and other caning supplies. Same thing with freezing. You *can* survive by sticking stuff in gallon bags, but freezer containers, vacuum bags & sealer will give you better quality. Then you have to have a second freezer, which requires electrcity and takes up floor space.

Root cellaring--great if you have one. We don't. Cement may leak, an earth basement may get rodents. Some people bury trash cans in their yard. We get too much snow to make that practical.

Also, what is the market & laws in the area like? Are you allowed to sell raw milk? Herd shares? Sell for animal consumption only? Can you sell eggs at a farmer's market? Veggies? How much does a booth cost? Would you have to be there every weekend? Can you sell dairy products? Processed meat? Most people do not have a USDA approved set up for selling butchered meat. You may have to pay some place else to do it and sell the meat otherwise.

What products sell in your area? Here in Michigan, most farmers have roadside sweet corn stands with other veggies. NW Michigan often have cherry stands, SW blueberries and peaches. Around us it's pickling cukes. NE and UP, potatoes and rutabagas. Are you in an area where people might be willing to pay $3 doz for eggs?

Look into your market first.


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## marie_p (May 31, 2010)

Mostly yep, yep & thanks. 

I've thought about renting property with access to land - we haven't looked hard at that. And we're not getting seriously invested in this until we have enough surplus cash to cover a year failing.

Folks up here pay $3-$4 for a dozen free range eggs at the main farmer's market, and we have access to the markets in several adjoining counties (and additional venues in town). Each market has different rules - the one in town requires board approval of products sold and you have to have a wide variety of products to be there all season and afford rent, but others are just informal tailgate markets.

"if you have to figure out costs on a spreadsheet, then you probably aren't ready to get animals."

Really? I didn't expect that. I prefer a visual arrangement of data and I'm overorganized, but I don't think that means I'm ignorant. I grew up with half a dozen dogs and cats, worked for breeders, boarders, trainers, veterinarians and wildlife rehabbers. I just haven't raised anything for myself to eat personally - those chicks and rats went to the hawks.

"You need a wide margin for animals, even chickens and rabbits."

Absolutely. We're taking internships and working odd jobs on farms and gardens in the county, building up experience and trying to get a hands-on understanding of how other people plan for that kind of wide margin.

"if you have to figure in how much it will cost, you really shouldn't be contemplating doing it in the first place". 

I'm really interested in whether further responses will continue to echo this concept, so please keep them coming, and thank you!

@michickenwrangler - there's definitely a market for $4 eggs, $6/lb rabbit meat (to restaurants, not markets yet), and goat cheese. Folks do almost all of their grocery shopping at the farmer's markets here, if they can afford it, so what grows here sells here (nobody's growing coffee, tea or wheat that I know of).


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## michickenwrangler (May 31, 2010)

If you plan to sell meat to restaurants you DEFINITELY need a health dept. approved slaughter area and disposal for offal. 

For goat cheese, you may also need to have approved facilities and often the milk has to be pasteurized grade-A milk (need a cooling tank). Also a temp & humidity controlled space for aging cheese properly. I would check your local laws.

On the flipside, if you're in the upper Midwest or Northeast and have lots of maple trees, maple syrup is a relatively law free venture and it sells for $20/qt or more in other areas of the country. My out of state relatives LOVE the maple syrup we get from our neighbors.

If farmer's markets are big in your area, you may wish to begin a "pick-your-own" farm for pumpkins, apples, melons or anything else that is fairly large (that can't be concealed in a ziploc bag under a sweatshirt).


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## marie_p (May 31, 2010)

I'm in the mountains in North Carolina. About thirty years ago maple syrup was a viable option in this area...now, not so much. 

Pick-your-own (blueberries, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries) is a popular supplement here, as is farm tourism (weddings, bed & breakfast). Plenty of people "threw in" some blueberry plants a few dozen years ago and advertise casually in newspapers come fall.

At present (if I remember correctly) rabbits were recently regulated as poultry, and subject to the same laws (less than 1,000/year ok to process at home for market, more than that must be processed at a regulated facility). At present they're no longer poultry, so there's no upper limit on how many can be processed on the farm. A local organization is building a slaughterhouse for small animals. Not sure about regulation for processing goats- then again, not sure restaurants around here would serve goat. Rabbit, I think so. Goat cheese, yes.

Folks in my county aren't raising rabbit for the market but there are several people in adjoining counties who are doing well on meat rabbits. I'm mostly interested in goats for function (clearing brush, rotating on pasture to follow with broilers), and so I don't have to buy milk.

Haven't thought about pumpkins. If I can sell them cheaper than grocery store pumpkins and make a profit (or sell pies/pumpkin butter), pick-your-own might be reasonable.

Neat ideas all round!


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## patandchickens (May 31, 2010)

Oh, wait, are you wanting to do this as a small business venture and try to turn a profit?

I really really do think it'd be smart to wait, then. The thing about gardens and livestock is that they tend to periodically Need Stuff Done Right Now, and if you can't DO it Right Now but try to postpone it til tomorrow or next Tuesday, things can go very wrong very fast. This does not mix well with college and fulltime jobs, at least not til you are quite well experienced with the critters in question.

The thing about spreadsheet games, w/r/t for-profit efforts, is that the error in estimation will be much greater than the profit margin. For instance it is easy to lose 75% of your tomato crop; or have a raccoon or dogs eat most of your chickens, or a disease ravage their productivity; even just a 1-year difference in how long you keep them laying well will make a BIG difference in profits. Thus, while spreadsheet games are instructive and all that, and can be useful once you ARE in operation, I would deeply distrust them for planning purposes.

If you are wanting to make a profit, I do not think your one-year cushion is nearly enough. Most small businesses fail to make a reliable net profit, or fail altogether, for the first five years or so; this is especially true in agricultural things. 

Wouldn't you maybe rather approach this from the perspective of doing some gardening and maybe some chickens or whatever, for FUN and for your own consumption, and spend a few years learning more about them and gaining experience and finishing school... and THEN see where you stand and think about the business possibilities of those critters?

Just a thought,

Pat


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## chandasue (May 31, 2010)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> Wouldn't you maybe rather approach this from the perspective of doing some gardening and maybe some chickens or whatever, for FUN and for your own consumption, and spend a few years learning more about them and gaining experience and finishing school... and THEN see where you stand and think about the business possibilities of those critters?


I totally agree with this and you should read it twice...   As dreamy and picturesque it seems in your mind, gardening and livestock are a lot of work and frustration before you reap the rewards. Starting small purely for the education and enjoyment, without huge investment, will give you an idea if you think you can do it on a bigger scale. I really enjoy the animals I have on a small scale and plan to keep it that way. I started out with big intentions and really had to back off because it was just too much work with my 3 yo tagging along behind me. (You mentioned a toddler.) I started out with 35 straight-run chickens with the intention of butchering the roos. I told myself that if I was going to have chickens that I would have to butcher them sooner or later. Come to find out that yes, I can butcher a chicken if I HAVE to. But you won't likely find me ordering a batch of 25 broiler chicks any time soon. Funny since I have no problems butchering deer... I didn't think it would bother me to kill a chicken. But it's far too "hands-on" murderous in my mind. Most people I know could not stomach butchering a chicken. ANYWAY, just something to think about.

Edit: I'm now keeping 2 separate flocks, one of 10 and a new batch of chicks, 12. The older ones will likely be butchered this fall as the new ones start laying. (gag)


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## ohiofarmgirl (May 31, 2010)

You are in NC, right? 

How's about if you go and talk to Dean.. he is in your neck of the woods:
http://www.laughingowlfarm.com/

FarmerChick is also around there somewhere - she farms profitably.

You can also try Brunty Farms (over on BYC) he's a younger guy who farms profitably in addition to working a full time job. (He's here in Ohio)

Its probably best to seek out advice from those who are already successful. I have a list of folks who predicted my failure.. they are still waiting. I'm glad I didn't listen to them. 

;-)


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## Lil-patch-of-heaven (May 31, 2010)

Yes, I didn't think it would bother me since igrew up on a farm but I found out that I have to have someone else do the butchering of animals I raise. That's another factor. The cost increases significantly if you have to pay someone to do it. 

Also I was thinking of what was just said. It sounds nice but you have to be prepared for hard work and being tied to the farm. It's hard to take a vacation. Right now I can't even take a half-day and go to the city with dh. Someone has to be here. Can't leave for more than 3 hours just now. And having a toddler in tow will make things take longer.  But it can be very rewarding to have that kind of experience with your child too. 

I'd echo the advice to start small, don't get too invested too quickly, and don't expect it to earn you a living. There are SO many factors to look into (I'd add agricultural proprty taxes, farmers buying co-op, and local feed mills to what's been mentioned as far as checking things out and I'm sure there's lots more I'm not thinking of. 

And I'll say ... Chickens are relatively easy and good to start with. I'd probably say rabbits next from your list. Goats are much more complicated and you'd better find a good goat vet and be prepared to learn and do as much as a vet yourself. 

Good luck whatever you do. Btw, a really good and practical kind of hands-on book that answers many of your questions was recommended to me. The title I believe was just "homesteading" and the authors first name was pat I think. I know that's not a lot of detail but it's all I can remember at the moment and I have to go milk goats, chase my silly chickens into the coop (too besotted with free-ranging to go in on their own like normal chickens!), and fight with the many wires making the rabbit cages snake-proof to remove their 2-liter freezer bottles (really gotta buy wood to re-make door frames and so redo their cages for the third door design now -- sigh), and start dinner. And clean the gosling's day pool to be their night brooder. 

I'll look that up later if I get a chance. If my Internet works out here on this phone, which is my only reception. Btw, if you like tv and high-speed Internet be sure to research that too before you move. I'm ok w/out tv but I miss the Internet on my computer!


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## Aped (May 31, 2010)

My advice would be to start small and keep it small. i never planned if I could afford animals but i knew I wanted eggs,milk,honey,vegetables,etc. So I got the things that made them but what I am learning now is that it takes very few of something to provide for just one person, which is my case. I started with six chickens now i have 20 plus. Then I got 2 geese then 3 more. Then 2 ducks now i have 20+. I just got into turkeys and I started with 2 goats and now have 5 plus a new kid or two on the way. 

Now with all the birds I have an abundance of eggs way more than I need or that I can sell. I've found for eggs I could probably just keep two females of the ducks/geese/chickens and still a have too many eggs. 

When it comes to vegetable plants, you don't really have to feed these like livestock but you do have to tend to them and weed them and keep them watered and fertilized which takes time and one plant of something makes a surprising amount of food. Last year I had 1 zucchini plant and about 7 tomato plants and I just couldn't keep up with their production. 

With the goats I could probably go down to just 2 does now that I know how much one nigerian dwarf will make, even while she has a kid and I milk once a day. I can count on a gallon a week at this point and more after the kid is weaned. The gallon a week is great for milk but really not much for cheese. 

So I got one sheep for future cheesemaking. Now my goal is to downsize and diversify what I have. 

Anyway, you can get by with surprisingly little. It also depends on how self-sufficient you'd like to be. Females are the more productive but you always need a male if you want more of that livestock. So that's another thing to keep in mind.


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## goodhors (May 31, 2010)

Reading all the remarks, you have gotten a lot of good information.

Spread sheets are fine, but gosh the learning curve, natural disasters, accidents, really seem to hunt for the newbies to haunt.  Hard to treat animals you don't know very well, so vet costs can add up fast if there is any difficulty.

If you are looking to make any income, you have to figure prices so you have paid yourself for your time.  Most folks just figure their expenses, feed, new animals, equipment, so time never is considered.  If it takes you several hours each day to keep the animals taken care of, you really need to take that into your equation.

We have 6 horses, their care each day takes about 3 hours, split among 2-3 of us.  Mostly stall cleaning, grooming, training time, working with them.  I know other folks with the same amount of animals, who never stall them, handle them daily, so their time is much less.  Maybe 40 minutes a day!

However our horses are much more usable with all the extra time spent on them.  Kind of "you get out of them, what you put into them" deal.  We always have people asking our "training secrets" that allow such success with our horses in all their activities.  They are totally a fun endeavor, so we don't count the cost of labor.  If we even paid ourselves five cents an hour in figuring expenses, their value would be astronomical!!

I would suggest you just invest in gardening and a few fowl, rabbits, maybe one milk goat if you like the milk, all for your own family.  You will have a heavy investment with the containment equipment  to start out.  So from the beginning, going "home-raised" is not going to be inexpensive.  Then you add in your time investment, which may be not very available with your other committments, and farm life might start being stressful.  I know small people are a major time consumer from experience!  Just doing things at kid-speed, takes 3 times longer, but sure gives you a different viewpoint, reminds you of things you have forgotten as a grown-up!  My horses basically sat around for a couple years, just eating, only ridden a little when the babies were small and needed my time.  Kids were the priority then.  Glad we had no other animals!

Can one of you do everything, children and animals/garden, home life, if the other is unavailable?  Or if one person's job suddenly demands many more hours a week?  Can you still afford things if one loses their job and income?  Stuff happens.  Marketing of your extra production takes time.  Sitting at a market, selling from home, may take hours when you can do nothing else productive.  Not wise to plan on taking the kid with you.  Bored, tired, unhappy kids are HARD to deal with in a public setting.

Might be easier to just pay the extra cost to another person for the organic, home raised things you want to consume.  You would not have invested money into needed equipment, no loss of your personal time, no dead animals or failed crops from things you can not control.  We don't put up hay for that reason.  Easier to just buy made hay, than invest in machinery, have weather ruin the crop, spend our time getting it up.  No loss of money to us if hay gets wet or cut late, machinery breaks down.  We just call another hay seller to find usable hay.


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## freemotion (Jun 1, 2010)

I would say....study Joel Salatin's methods.  He is making a profit while improving the land.  He is not certified organic, yet has to turn customers away.  He sets things up so that the animals are happy and healthy and not as labor-intensive.  He has several books out, including Pastured Poultry Profits.


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## Aped (Jun 1, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I would say....study Joel Salatin's methods.  He is making a profit while improving the land.  He is not certified organic, yet has to turn customers away.  He sets things up so that the animals are happy and healthy and not as labor-intensive.  He has several books out, including Pastured Poultry Profits.


I know a lot of people like to rave about Joel Salatin but a lot of his methods are not practical for those of use with an acre or less. His methods are based on a 550 acre farm. He has a lot to work with there.


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## freemotion (Jun 1, 2010)

He does not use all of the 550 acres, and if you use his methods, you can get more from whatever you have.  I have two acres of pasture and am employing as many of his techniques as I can to get the most from my land with the least output....while keeping my animals all happy and healthy and as close to organic as I can.  I am not making a living from this, however, the bit I sell goes back into the expenses, and I bet I break even.  So it becomes very high quality free food for me and my family.

With a few more acres, I could actually turn a profit.

I personally will not be supportive of anyone who wants to start a farm using CAFO or other confinement methods.  I seriously doubt the OP was considering farming on a tiny bit of land.

What are you envisioning, Marie?


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 1, 2010)

Well, let's look at what I'm doing, for example.  We currently have 1 acre.  I WANT more, and I'm definitely capable of handling more work and knowledge-wise, but not financially at the moment.  

I currently have a large garden, 3 sheep (lambs are for meat), 2 goats (our dairy), 25 layers, 15 turkeys, several guineas, and we're raising broilers (probably a total of 150-200 this year).  We're definitely not over-stocking our land, and we have more grass than we can use at the moment.  I'm really careful about rotating pastures.  The poultry free range.  I sell eggs to help cover chicken feed (not quite breaking even yet but I'm getting more eggs now) and I just have started selling goat milk which actually does cover feed for the goats and probably sheep.  I'll have another veggie stand this summer. Last summer the sales from that (just my extra veggies) paid for all my seed costs for that year.  This year I've expanded the garden to be able to sell more produce.  

I would LOVE to get some meat rabbits, but I'm taking care of everything alone (it's not hubby's thing) and I'm not sure I want the extra chores at this point, maybe this winter though.  

If I were you, I'd figure out the mortgage aspect first.  THEN start small and figure out what you can afford to do.  Maybe the first year you can build a coop and get some layers and start selling eggs.  Then, maybe the next year you can add meat rabbits.  It's expensive to build housing and get all the supplies. I wanted everything NOW when I started too, but I just can't afford to do everything at once.  Just gradually expand and then you can slowly build your market too.  

As far as farmers markets, you really need to figure out if they're right for you.  Here, it costs as much as $70 per season to rent your space. Then you have to dedicate every Saturday to sitting at the market! I'd much rather sell from home and have my time available to do work.  

Our plan is to keep working to pay off all debts, then when we're ready, move (to NC probably) and get at least 25 acres so we can expand and eventually go much larger-scale and make it more of a full-time job.  

Definitely don't give up though, and don't get discouraged if you can't do what you want right away.  Take this time to read, get information, make contacts, etc. before you jump in!  

And most of all, don't give up!


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## marie_p (Jun 1, 2010)

"What are you envisioning, Marie?"

We're looking at a five acre property, mostly orchard grass and clover (as far as I can tell without a machete). About one acre extends into the woods on a high slope, but the pasture is flat. A creek runs between pasture and woods. And there's an option to  buy another five acres adjacent, or rent from farming neighbors.

We're not buying it tomorrow or anything, but that's the quality/quantity of what is available to us and in our price range. I don't know that I could handle ten or fifteen acres right now, we're looking at less than five. And it's all out in the country, fifteen minutes from town, where other people are making a living farming. No CAFOS, just happy grassy cows. 

I could quote aggieterpkatie's response in it's entirety. That's what I want to do...eventually. Later. If I can swing it on my own before TRYING to make a profit. So, we're planning on failing for a year, then maybe making ends meet.

Oh, and one at a time absolutely, I'm not going to set up a multi-species farm on credit and promises, and I can barely keep up with my kid and wash the dishes at the same time. Just trying to take my time and learn.


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## jodief100 (Jun 7, 2010)

Just the fact you are looking at the numbers on your spreadsheet tells me you are on the right track.  Too many people get into small scale farming to "have fun" and go broke.  Look at your markets and see what is available in yoru area.  Is there a demand for pasture pultry?  Do you have somewhere you can process it and legally sell it?  Same for goats, sheep cows, pigs.....  Is there someplace to sell your surplus animals such as an auction if you can't sell them direct?   It is very difficult to make any money asking people to come to your farm, you have to go to the customers.  U-picks are a great idea but you have to be somewhat close to town and easy to find.  Also if you want  people to come to you you MUST advertise (sign on the road doesn't qualify).  Ask around, see what people want.  Go to the farmer;s markets and see what is selling and how for how much.  Other farmers will be willing to help you if the market isn't saturated.  If they don't want to help, it may be a sign the market has too many suppliers already.  

Figure out all of the HOW, WHAT and WHERE's beofre you start.


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## michickenwrangler (Jun 7, 2010)

Also too, you probably need your property before you start making these decisions. Acidic soil with lots of scrub oak? Organic blueberries might be in order. South facing slope? Melons or a grape arbor. 

Lots of scrubby brush? Get goats. Lots of grass, get sheep. Heavy snow in those NC mountains? Get a few horses to go in with the sheep, they'll paw through the snow and teach sheep how to get at the grass underneath (that's partly why our Indo-European ancestors domesticated horses).

Not a lot of bees in the area? Get your own hive even if it's just mason bees for pollination.

But knowing what you will have to work with will save you a lot of headache. Before you start putting in the garden, get soil samples, test the pH and I would even test the water too.


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## bettybohemian (Jan 24, 2011)

What *we* did. We started out as homeowners in a downtown metropolitan city. We have two kids. I quit my job to stay home with our boys and got BORED. Decided to buy some chickens. Fast forward 3years. We are now renting a rural 20.acres.  landlady has no issues with our well.cared for animals. We have a small herd of milking goats (6),a small herd of.ducks.(6), breeding trio of meat rabbits and a horse. My spouse still works earning only.$4,000 a month. Feed costs are.as.follows: .goats $55 a month (4 bales of alfalfa one 50lb bag of goat grain), ducks.$5.so.far. they.eat mostly forage and get.hardboiled.eggs.for protein. Rabbits get about a flake of hay a week which comes from the.goats hay along with kitchen scraps and forage I pick and wash. If you guys can work part time oor one of you.work full.time its.doable. I do not turn a profit on the livestock yet.as.we're still building up. Put at least $100 a month away for emergencies (animals get.sick fences fall down.etc) Stop punching numbers and just start small. Nothing in life is permanant. You can have all the money in the world and lose it. Keep chasing that dream and make adjustments where you can (one car instead of.two. no cable or cellphones). Good luck!!! P.s I'm 30 and a college.drop out LOL.


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