# Inbreeding sheep



## BoPeep75 (Feb 9, 2022)

Recently I have been reading articles on sheep inbreeding. We have recently had several lambs, all of which happened to be male. Our last sheep is due and if she has a female, I would like to keep her purely for breeding sheep that we will eat.  What are your thoughts on this? It is always giving me a yucky vibe but I know ppl do it.  I don’t let my chickens even cross breed, but I know ppl do that too. I know it is an acceptable practice for some people, and I certainly am not breeding for show or anything like that.  I just need another female Katahdin, and I’m having a hard time finding one locally.  We would slaughter her lambs for food when they’re the appropriate age.  Does it gross you out?  Do you allow this?


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## Mini Horses (Feb 9, 2022)

No, doesn't gross me out.  Many here raise lamb for food consumption, as well as goat, chicken, turkey, duck and rabbit.   Just don't let those for that use become pets!  They receive excellent care until only one bad moment of humane harvest.

Those lamb chops on grocers shelves were once lambs on pasture.  It's true!


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## BoPeep75 (Feb 9, 2022)

Oh I have no qualms about eating them. I just wondered about breeding a sire to his daughter. It’s more an emotional icky thing for me thinking about inbreeding, but we definitely eat the sheep.  Yum!  😁


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## BrahmerQueen (Feb 9, 2022)

BoPeep75 said:


> Recently I have been reading articles on sheep inbreeding. We have recently had several lambs, all of which happened to be male. Our last sheep is due and if she has a female, I would like to keep her purely for breeding sheep that we will eat.  What are your thoughts on this? It is always giving me a yucky vibe but I know ppl do it.  I don’t let my chickens even cross breed, but I know ppl do that too. I know it is an acceptable practice for some people, and I certainly am not breeding for show or anything like that.  I just need another female Katahdin, and I’m having a hard time finding one locally.  We would slaughter her lambs for food when they’re the appropriate age.  Does it gross you out?  Do you allow this?


Nope doesn't gross me out. I'm about to do something like this I think it's fine


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## Mini Horses (Feb 9, 2022)

Actually first year breeding son to dam or sire to dtr isn't that unusual.   Since the lambs are basically terminal, won't make a difference.


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## BoPeep75 (Feb 9, 2022)

Thank you.  Those were my thoughts as well, since it’s only for food.  I just didn’t want to think about eating anything that was going to come out with six legs and cross eyed.  Lol i’m only kidding I know it won’t actually show anything like that but I guess I just wanted to hear more ppl say it was a common practice before we went down that path.  This is about as far as we will go with it, but for curiosity’s sake, how far down the line do people inbreed? I haven’t gotten a firm answer in the articles, but I see people mating the sire to his daughter and granddaughter but I’m not sure where ppl stop, or if they stop purely based on what traits are showing up.


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## Alaskan (Feb 9, 2022)

BoPeep75 said:


> but I see people mating the sire to his daughter and granddaughter but I’m not sure where ppl stop, or if they stop purely based on what traits are showing up.


That.

Inbreeding can be great to get a clear idea of what all genetically is hiding in your herd.

Nothing wrong with it...  even if you know you have some horrid recessive something.  Inbreeding can show you EXACTLY which animals are carrying it, and you can then cull those, and keep the ones that you now know do NOT carry "it".

So...  useful tool.


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## BoPeep75 (Feb 10, 2022)

Alaskan said:


> That.
> 
> Inbreeding can be great to get a clear idea of what all genetically is hiding in your herd.
> 
> ...


Excellent point.  If “crazy as a bedbug” is a inheritable trait, I’ve got one that I would love to cull when I have a replacement.


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## purplequeenvt (Feb 10, 2022)

If it works, it’s called line-breeding, if it doesn’t it’s called in-breeding. 

You do what you have to do. It’s not ideal to breed father to daughter, mother to son, cousins or what have you too many times in succession, but it’s perfectly acceptable to do it occasionally.


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## Legamin (Feb 16, 2022)

BoPeep75 said:


> Recently I have been reading articles on sheep inbreeding. We have recently had several lambs, all of which happened to be male. Our last sheep is due and if she has a female, I would like to keep her purely for breeding sheep that we will eat.  What are your thoughts on this? It is always giving me a yucky vibe but I know ppl do it.  I don’t let my chickens even cross breed, but I know ppl do that too. I know it is an acceptable practice for some people, and I certainly am not breeding for show or anything like that.  I just need another female Katahdin, and I’m having a hard time finding one locally.  We would slaughter her lambs for food when they’re the appropriate age.  Does it gross you out?  Do you allow this?


‘Inbreeding’ often referred to as ‘Linebreeding’ has been done for as long as there have been human developed domesticated breeds.  Someone finds two sheep that have genetic and health traits that are desirable when mixed and they breed them together.  When you get a couple lamb that are ‘PERFECT’ and they happen to be brother and sister or father/daughter or mother/son…you get the idea I’m sure..…they are bred together to promote the continued production of a line of ‘PERFECT’ sheep (goat, lizard, bird, elephant….) the goal is the ‘perfect’ physical and health qualities that can be reliably reproduced.  Eventually there has to be other animals bred together to diversify the breed and create a broadly repeatable and reliable breed standard…this often takes 5-10 generations but can be perfected over 30-40 (sheep) generations.  Diversity is REQUIRED for developing or improving and promoting a healthy future for your breed because many generations of inbreeding will weaken the genetics and create issues of unreliable health and physical traits that no longer reliably reproduce and protect the longevity of the breed.  simply put, with too much inbreeding stuff quits working right and the basic building blocks quit stacking ’straight’.  Both physicality, health of the animal and meat texture suffer.
Having said that…now….I understand that is NOT what you are doing!  You are taking two healthy animals that are closely related and breeding them for your personal meat supply.  A couple of things.  You are not breeding to sell as ‘registered animals’ so there is no problem with ‘representation’.  You are not trying to build a herd off of siblings and then continue to inbreed generations of sheep…so there is no problem with weakening genetics (which happens over time).  You are breeding two sheep that happen to be siblings for meat.  Which is fine and will have zero impact on the end product.  This is done all thee time in simple meat production operations. And as long as it does not reoccur over multiple generations you have zero problems with weakening genetics or poor outcomes.
you can successfully have up to 10-11 years of lambs from the same couple and get consistently sound results for meat sheep.  If you eat some of the lamb and it is the flavor and texture that you enjoy…keep doing it as long as they will cooperate!  There is no reason to change a thing!

’inbreeding’ is OUR hang up….NOT theirs!  They are sheep…they find comfort in company with each other.  They don’t comprehend generational relationship in the sentient way you and I do.  There is no ‘creepy vibe’ with this and no one who understands sheep and genetics should have any problem with it.
For your own peace of mind, when you are telling people that you breed sheep….tell them ONLY “that you are breeding sheep.”   No one needs to know their familial disposition!  It is ’lamb meat’ and it’s DELICIOUS!
You are doing nothing unusual or ‘creepy’.  What you are doing is done around the world by virtually every small self-sufficient producer has been doing for thousands of years.
Finally, if you don’t like the texture or flavor of the meat you produce do some research and find a preferred breed stud on a nearby farm who’s owner (if you know them it will be easier) will allow you to put your ewe(s) in their flock at breeding time and then pick them up and take them home.  If you are satisfied that you have produced the ‘perfect lamb’ continue doing this until you get a male and female and breed them for a decade of meat supply!
I charge a fee for studding…which keeps the number of requests at a reasonable level…of $50/day, $200/week, $450/month per ewe.  I breed a very rare breed purebred and limit outside access because I prefer to focus on my own flock.  But there are other producers with this breed who will travel a thousand miles to breed a couple ewes to add genetic diversity to their own flock.  I ’lease’ my rams as well if I trust the person and see a ’clean’ and serious operation.  But that’s me.  (Informational only: PLEASE do NOT contact for breeding)
I hope I have eased any concerns about single generation sibling breeding.  There is no problem as long as your are getting healthy animals and the texture and taste you want out of the meat.  The sheep don’t care!  If you only have a few you can just leave them happily together year round and they will mate once per year….though you should separate the ram from the ewe a few weeks before lambing and keep them apart until well after weaning.  In some breeds the rams will demonstrate aggression towards the young…especially the males and you can end up with dead lamb and injured ewes.  It is unfortunate but it is good standard practice to separate for about three months until the lamb is 60+lbs and can look after itself.  Our operation is just big enough that I no longer use outside rams and we keep a ram pen of four to 6 rams and four wethers as ‘tease’ rams to get the ewes in synch before throwing the ‘hot’ rams in for breeding.  It works…it’s a thing.


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## Legamin (Feb 16, 2022)

purplequeenvt said:


> If it works, it’s called line-breeding, if it doesn’t it’s called in-breeding.
> 
> You do what you have to do. It’s not ideal to breed father to daughter, mother to son, cousins or what have you too many times in succession, but it’s perfectly acceptable to do it occasionally.





BoPeep75 said:


> Recently I have been reading articles on sheep inbreeding. We have recently had several lambs, all of which happened to be male. Our last sheep is due and if she has a female, I would like to keep her purely for breeding sheep that we will eat.  What are your thoughts on this? It is always giving me a yucky vibe but I know ppl do it.  I don’t let my chickens even cross breed, but I know ppl do that too. I know it is an acceptable practice for some people, and I certainly am not breeding for show or anything like that.  I just need another female Katahdin, and I’m having a hard time finding one locally.  We would slaughter her lambs for food when they’re the appropriate age.  Does it gross you out?  Do you allow this?
> 
> 
> BoPeep75 said:
> ...


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## BoPeep75 (Feb 18, 2022)

That is very kind! But I think I’m pretty out-of-the-way in Tennessee. And don’t worry about the “book” - I thought it was awesome! .  Sounds like you have a well run operation going.  We don’t have so many sheep farmers here that studding is a big thing for sheep, horses and cows yes.  It would be great if so though.   We don’t have nearly as big of a herd as you do… We only have one ram. It would be nice to have enough females to have two rams but I think we’ll keep it smaller and more manageable.  We downsized our number of goats and chickens as well.  We picked our favorites as breeding stock and sold the rest or butchered in the case of chickens.  My last ewe is due soon and hopefully will have much-anticipated females for me.


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## secuono (Feb 18, 2022)

Inbreeding for meat is no problem. Inbreeding for brood stock is fine if you do it right.


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## Legamin (Feb 18, 2022)

BoPeep75 said:


> That is very kind! But I think I’m pretty out-of-the-way in Tennessee. And don’t worry about the “book” - I thought it was awesome! .  Sounds like you have a well run operation going.  We don’t have so many sheep farmers here that studding is a big thing for sheep, horses and cows yes.  It would be great if so though.   We don’t have nearly as big of a herd as you do… We only have one ram. It would be nice to have enough females to have two rams but I think we’ll keep it smaller and more manageable.  We downsized our number of goats and chickens as well.  We picked our favorites as breeding stock and sold the rest or butchered in the case of chickens.  My last ewe is due soon and hopefully will have much-anticipated females for me.


I found it interesting that you are from Tennessee!  My wife and I have been considering selling out here in Washington and have already located a 250 acre farm ready and waiting in Tennessee just about 4 hours north of where our children move to in Texas!  It will be interesting to see what the next few years bring in land sales and opportunities!


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## Legamin (Feb 22, 2022)

BoPeep75 said:


> Thank you.  Those were my thoughts as well, since it’s only for food.  I just didn’t want to think about eating anything that was going to come out with six legs and cross eyed.  Lol i’m only kidding I know it won’t actually show anything like that but I guess I just wanted to hear more ppl say it was a common practice before we went down that path.  This is about as far as we will go with it, but for curiosity’s sake, how far down the line do people inbreed? I haven’t gotten a firm answer in the articles, but I see people mating the sire to his daughter and granddaughter but I’m not sure where ppl stop, or if they stop purely based on what traits are showing up.


Since I breed a critically endangered breed of sheep there are lots of questions that we have had to ask and determine “how far CAN we go with inbreeding?”  When the last remaining group of purebRed Leicester Longwool sheep were discovered in Tasmania in the 1920’s there were just 50 left.  In the WORLD.   This meant that to save the breed line breeding would be unavoidable.  They were purchased and brought back to the UK for re-establishment and I’m glad to report there are just over 1000 breeding quality purebred Leicester Longwool sheep today….STILL critically endangered and VERY difficult to find an ’unrelated’ sheep to breed.  
So there had to be standards to give the herd the best chance of survival AND genetic diversity while maintaining the highest standard of physicality and genetics…and of course health.
We are at a point in the recovery of the breed that it is still acceptable to breed a grandfather with a grand-daughter that is not the product of a sister or daughter and a grand mother with a grandson that is not the product of son or brother…it’s more complicated than that but you may get the idea.  
We are looking first for health and ’perfect’ breed quality genetics that match the standard.  Then we are able to breed to the third generation as long as it is not the product of the same immediate family.  In other words if I rotate my four purebred unrelated rams every year….and never cross breed back to the next immediate generation my sheep will meet the standard for registration as long as they meet at least 3 of the 5 star grading requirements under a qualified judge.
It does no good for the breed if I try to ’cheat’ the system by writing in the wrong name on the paperwork because eventually (sooner than that) someone will do a DNA test and call my bluff….it’s a small community and it’s not worth risking my reputation.
My understanding is that as long as the bred product meets your breeding program standards and is healthy and not prone to disease there is no problem in breeding for meat.  You may not meet a hoity-toity registration standard but if you breed siblings for 6 generations and are still getting healthy, product that meets your standards then you might be near the limit of what a line breeding program can do.  The science AND the experience demonstrates that each successive rebreeding to siblings or next generation will progressively weakens the strength, health and likelihood of no significant birth defects.  The DNA breaks down.
I won’t be callouse…as I’m pretty okay with people providing for themselves however they best can….but if you breed for 4-5 years and have not been able to purchase fresh blood to breed…even a multi-breed Craigslist ram….maybe you are better off looking for inexpensive but healthy groceries from a store?  Please don’t take me wrong…you do what you need to do.  But animals in our care should not be experiments in seeing how far we can stretch an experiment that has been proven many times over….that it doesn’t end well.  Animals in our care deserve our best efforts and our best care.  I’m on a shoe-string with my operation.  But I’m intensely frugal and we manage…because the quality of the outcome is worth it.
You will not see Leicester Longwools in a breed show because there are simply not enough to have any competition.  We still judge one at a time by a 5 star system.  But we press on because this special breed is worth it!


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## Baymule (Mar 5, 2022)

Legamin said:


> I found it interesting that you are from Tennessee!  My wife and I have been considering selling out here in Washington and have already located a 250 acre farm ready and waiting in Tennessee just about 4 hours north of where our children move to in Texas!  It will be interesting to see what the next few years bring in land sales and opportunities!


Tennessee is not 4 hours north of Texas!


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## Ridgetop (Mar 9, 2022)

Inbreeding is breeding first degree relatives i.e. mother/son, father/daughter, sister/brother.
Linebreeding is breeding individuals with some of the same relatives in the pedigree.
Outcrossing is breeding individuals that have no blood relationship.

Like Legamin said - *inbreeding* solidifies a "type" by doubling close genetics so the offspring are better than the parents with the same genes.  If you don't know the genetics you want to double up on this can be a mistake, since it can also double up the flaws in the two parents to pass on to the progeny.    

*Linebreeding* is breeding selected individuals with other individuals wh have some of the same ancestors and genetics.  This is what most people do when starting out.

*Outcrossing* is breeding unrelated individuals to bring in an outstanding attribute from another gene pool.

All 3 are standard breeding techniques is the quest for perfection in a breed.  LOL

In your case, breeding a 1st generation daughter to her father is necessary to provide you with more breeding females.  Assuming there are no terrible flaws in the parents, your 2nd generation ewe lambs should be fine.  You can breed those 2nd generation daughters to the father again for terminal locker lambs.  Breeding 2 generations will be fine unless there are bad flaws in your sheep.  In that case, you can eat all the 2nd and 3rd generation lambs.  Bad flaws doesn't necessarily refer to birth defects, rather to type of the breed.  You need to know what the best Katahdin should look like and then judge your sheep on that standard to decide if you will keep any 2nd generation ewelings for future breeding. 

If you want to keep any ewe lambs produced by the 2nd generation ewes, you will need to buy another ram.  Sell the old ram and invest in another better ram who is not closely related to proceed with your breeding program.


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