# Dutchies are clueless - pregnant bunny or not?



## kim&sjoerd (Mar 23, 2020)

Hi there,

We are from the Netherlands and currently in quarantaine due to severe Corona problem in our region. Vets only help out if an animal is critically ill. The woman on dutch websites are a little bit crazy when it comes to accidental bunny pregnancies.

We recently bought a little Holland Lop baby boy to accompany our mixed breed (teddy dwarf x Hollander) doe. The breeder (shabby looking Guy) told us The boy was 8-10 weeks old.

we introduced The boy to The doe and he jumped in her immediately.
Didn’t think too much of it. Saw on The internet that this is a way of establishing a picking order.

eventually I picked him up. He fell of her 3 times by then.
My daughter laughed and said “He has Really big balls”.

later that evening me and my husband laughed avond this comment But all of a sudden I realized that these big balls could mean that hè is fertile. Maybe The breeder had his age wrong.

18 days after we got him The doe started building a nest out of hay.
she went at it like crazy.
She pulled fur at Day 20. After that she didn’t look at her nest again.
I did My research. This means false pregnancy. I removed Some of The nest, moet The fur in there.

this is dat 23. The Buck broke Free this morning and The doe started attacking him from her cage.
She has a big belly, lies om her side a lot and is grumpy when I touch her.
Did I Get it wrong?

how to tell? I cannot go to The vet. Dutch bunny-ladies try to digitally kill me when I ask something about this on a dutch website. It is truelly a crime when you underestimate The fertilizing powers of your baby bunny. I Should be banned from owning bunnies for being so ignorant 😅🙄

Thanks in advance
Stay safe

kind Regards

kim


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## promiseacres (Mar 23, 2020)

Gestation or pregnancy is 31 days. She definately still could be pregnant. Or it's a false. I've had a few false pregnancies but never the "normal" cases as seen on the internet. And I have had does build a nest from about day 11 on to afterwards and have a litter. Good luck, leave the box in and wait and see is my advice


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## Bunnylady (Mar 23, 2020)

Hi, Kim!  Welcome to BYH!

I'm sorry to hear that you have been flamed for simply not knowing; If that happened to people in real life, I think most of us would have been fried to a crisp by now (joke!)

As @promiseacres said, your doe might be pregnant, she might not. Does don't read the books (they just chew the pages), so how any  particular doe behaves when pregnant can vary a lot. I've had does that didn't pull fur until mere minutes before the babies started arriving, and others that were at it for weeks (to the point of being nearly bald!) I've had does that went all the way to day 31 with false pregnancies. Some does are just grumpy, regardless, especially at this time of year.

I think the guy you got the buck from wasn't being accurate. While an 8-10-week-old might mount another rabbit, he shouldn't be all that well developed, and definitely shouldn't be able to complete the act.

My advice, too, is to act as if you think she is still expecting, then wait and see.

By the way, my rabbits' slogan is "how can we drive her crazy today." Sounds like you are getting a good introduction to the world of rabbit keeping!


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 23, 2020)

Thanks ladies! Very helpfull 🐇👌


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## animalmom (Mar 23, 2020)

Welcome to BYH!  Glad you ditched the mean ladies for us.  We, if I do say so myself, are nice and are more interested in helping you succeed.  Anyone can point fingers and say mean things.  People who are animal lovers want you to do well.

Oh, please don't forget to post pictures of the kits when they arrive.  Thanks!


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 24, 2020)

Hi, thanks all! Very kind!

how do you all count The days? Is The mating date day 1 or The Day after The mating?

we introduced our doe to The Buck in the 29th of februari
Regards 

kim


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## promiseacres (Mar 24, 2020)

kim&sjoerd said:


> Hi, thanks all! Very kind!
> 
> how do you all count The days? Is The mating date day 1 or The Day after The mating?
> 
> ...


Put your box in March 28, which is day 28 then day 31 is the due date. Or close to it.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 24, 2020)

Most does kindle on day 31, but even that can vary - I had a Holland Lop doe that always kindled on day 30, for example. A doe carrying a large litter may go earlier, even as early as day 28 or 29 (the earliest surviving litter I have ever had was born on day 27, but they looked a bit underdeveloped). A doe carrying only one or two babies may go as long as day 34 or 35, though by then, the babies are usually so big and it takes so long to deliver them, they usually don't survive.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 24, 2020)

*Definitely put the nest box back in.*  If you saved the hair, put it back in the box too.  If she bred on February 29, she is due on March 30.  If it proves to be a false pregnancy you have not lost anything.  Keeping the nest box in place for extra days is a lot better than discovering a cage full of dead kits.

She is probably pregnant since he jumped her and fell off 3 times.  Now she is attacking him which means she doesn't want him in her space.  Put in the nest box and keep it in from March 28 through April 4.  That will be a safe length of time.  You don't want to take the box out too soon and end up with dead kits all over the cage because he didn't impregnate her until the 3rd or 4th day he was in with her.  Rabbits do not gather their kits together like cats and dog do.  If they don't have the kits in a nest box, the kits scatter over the cage and eventually die, usually from cold since they are born hairless.  Also unless they are in a nest, the doe will not bother feeding them on the floor of the cage. 

When I was breeding semi-commercially I noticed that different years the does would sometimes kindle 28 days and sometimes at 33 days.  These were not individual does. I am talking about 20 does kindling on day 28 or 33.  I noticed this because I was breeding so many rabbits. Not sure why it happened, but might have had something with weather or ?  Make sure she is not peeing or pooping in the box.  f she does clean it out, give her fresh nest materials and put the box in a different location.  If you accidently place the nest box in the spot they normally pee or poop in, they sometimes will continue to use the spot even though the box is there.  

Next comment.  You do not say how old your doe is.  Also, why did you buy a buck to keep a doe company in the same cage?  Rabbits never come in season like other animals.  They LIVE in season!  LOL  If the Holland Lop was only 8 weeks old, he should have fit in a teacup.  How large was he actually when you got him?  

Rabbits usually are fertile by 6 months.  The smaller breeds might become fertile a little earlier.  We have had them breed as early as 14-16 weeks.  We left some bunnies in a fryer pen a little long because DH was working 24/7 and couldn't butcher.  Figured they would make roasters - big mistake!    After that fiasco we separated the sexes by 10 weeks.  

You will have to keep the rabbits in separate cages or have the female spayed.  FYI females do not usually make good pets.  When they reach sexual maturity they can become grouchy because they want to breed and produce.  Males on the other hand usually stay friendly and laid back.

Good luck.


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 24, 2020)

the Buck was 900 grams when we hot him.

we didn’t keep them together. We have separate cages and introduced them in nutural terrein (The kitchen table actually, they pooped on it)

it was an introduction of a couple of minutes.
After that we kept them seperated as The normally cuddely and very tame doe lashed out to Everyone.

after nesting at day 17 and pulling fur The days after, she didn’t look at it again. Now is dat 24-25 and she started digging at her hay again. She was also running around with fur in her mouth this afternoon. DON’t know if she pulled it or took The old fur that we left in the cage.

she is confusing me. This afternoon she saw The Buck. hè was in the livingroom playing with The kids and she was in her cage. She saw him only from a distance but was still growling at him. Told The kids Not to play with The Buck in that part of The livingroom where she can see him. They live indoors in our cold winters. Outdoors when wetter Permits it. The doe is 10 months old.
Regards 

kim


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 24, 2020)

The Buck om The day we got him


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 24, 2020)

normal size poop-box (very masculine)
Buck a couple of days after we got him. Hé is potty-trained now but really didn’t understanding where The box was for The first couple of days 😂


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## animalmom (Mar 24, 2020)

He is a cutie!

Please keep us informed on how the doe is doing.


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## Ridgetop (Mar 24, 2020)

*Definitely sounds pregnant to me.  Pulling more fur and* trying again to make a nest.  *Put a nest box in her cage.* 

Do you *have* a nest box?  Preferable made of wood or metal due to her chewing up a cardboard box.  For that size doe and litter the box should be minimum 18 cm by 24 cm approximately with sides about 8-10 cm tall.  No top necessary.  If you don't have one, try to construct one and put the bedding materials in it.  Even some sort of metal or crockery baking pan with a 5-8 cm rim will work as long as it is heavy enough so it can't tip over.  Too large is better than too small.  With a short lip you will have to watch to return any kits that fall out back into the nest.  If the doe is disturbed at night she can sometimes jump out of the box with a kit still nursing and it will fall on the cage floor.  Just put it back if it is still alive.  

The reason for a nest box is to mimic what the doe builds in the wild.  In the wild the rabbit will dig a hole or depression in the ground and fill it with her fur.  When the kits are born they have no fur and are blind.  If they are in a nest, they can't crawl away, they keep each other warm, and the mother jumps into the nest to feed them.  She doesn't lay down to nurse them but crouches over them.  She only feeds them at night.  During the day she will not stay in the nest but will sit in the cage and go about her activities.  If startled she may jump into the nest.  *She will not gather up any kit that falls out of the nest and put it back like cats and dogs. * In the wild this sort of behavior is a safety factor for the kits.  If a predator comes near the nest the mother will run hoping to lead predators away from the nest of babies.  In the wild, does breed as soon as they kindle (give birth).  They will have another litter 30 days after the current litter.  Do not put your buck with your doe anymore unless you want another litter.  Rabbits don't play together like cats or dogs do.  They are normally solitary animals, only coming together to breed. 

Not sure how much 900 grams is in ounces, but f he has large balls he was probably a sexually mature buck.  When sexing baby bunnies at 8 weeks they don't usually have testicles yet.  We use the donut or tube and paper clip method.

Enjoy your baby bunnies!


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> *Definitely sounds pregnant to me.  Pulling more fur and* trying again to make a nest.  *Put a nest box in her cage.*
> 
> Do you *have* a nest box?  Preferable made of wood or metal due to her chewing up a cardboard box.  For that size doe and litter the box should be minimum 18 cm by 24 cm approximately with sides about 8-10 cm tall.  No top necessary.  If you don't have one, try to construct one and put the bedding materials in it.  Even some sort of metal or crockery baking pan with a 5-8 cm rim will work as long as it is heavy enough so it can't tip over.  Too large is better than too small.  With a short lip you will have to watch to return any kits that fall out back into the nest.  If the doe is disturbed at night she can sometimes jump out of the box with a kit still nursing and it will fall on the cage floor.  Just put it back if it is still alive.
> 
> ...


Thanks!
Yes
We’ve put in a bigger one and a smaller one
we use hay as nesting material

900 grams is 32 ounces according to google

Thanks!


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## Ridgetop (Mar 24, 2020)

Since the maximum weight for Holland Lops is 4 lbs. or 1800 grams, the bunny you were sold as being 8 weeks old was much older.  Of course, you have realized that by now.

Since sometimes you just see a bundle of fluffy hair in the nest, to check to see if the doe has had her litter, you can just stick a finger into the pile of hair gently.  If it is warm, there are baby bunnies there.  Once she has had her litter, you should take the nest box out of the cag and check the litter,.  Count the number of babies and if any are dead dispose of them.  Their little tummies should have a rounded appearance,  If their tummies are very wrinkled and empty looking she has not fed them.  You don't have to worry about the kits unless they are very cold and squeaking. Then you will need to warm them up.  If she has her kits in her nest box, there is very little for you to do since they will cuddle together to keep warm and she will take care of them.  Don't worry if you never see her feeding them.  does feed their litters at night.  Do not worry about taking the nest box out and handling the babies.  The doe will accept them back  just fine.  Stories about does killing their babies if you touch them are *false*.  In about 7-10 days their eyes will open, they will have fur.  In 2 weeks they will be climbing in and out of the nest box.  They will start eating rabbit pellets and you should remove the nest box.

In case no one has told you, sometimes the dwarf breeds (particularly Holland Lops) can produce an extremely tiny, shriveled, odd looking kit in the litter. Those are called "peanuts".  They are not runts which are small but can survive. Peanuts do not survive for more than a week so if you have one in the litter and it dies do not worry.  There is nothing you can do to save a "peanut".  Most breeders remove them from the nest boxes and dispose of them.  They don't always appear but if you have one don't worry.

Your family  will enjoy your bunny raising experience!


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## Bunnylady (Mar 24, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Since the maximum weight for Holland Lops is 4 lbs. or 1800 grams,



Actually, that's the maximum_ showable_ weight; pedigreed Hollands can weigh a lot more than that, if they don't happen to have inherited the dwarfing gene. We who breed dwarf breeds refer to rabbits that inherited the dwarfing gene as "true dwarfs," those who missed it as "false dwarfs." During my earliest years with Holland Lops, I often had false dwarfs that matured at nearly 6 pounds (we all had to really work on getting the size down without losing type in those days). Looking at the length of the buck's ears relative to the size of his head, he looks like a false dwarf (possibly a good thing from certain points of view, since a false dwarf cannot throw peanuts, a peanut being a bunny that inherited the dwarfing gene from both parents).

I agree, the doe definitely is acting as if she is pregnant. But, having had does that went through all of the motions including pulling a bunch of fur on day 31 and produced nothing, I won't guarantee that your doe is expecting. "false pregnancy" is a confused hormonal state, and until the hormones get sorted out, a doe can carry on exactly like one that is pregnant. So I still say, prepare for babies, but don't be too disappointed if they don't appear.


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 25, 2020)

Well at first I was shockend. I did Not anticipate baby’s. But after a while I got used to The idea and Now I would be a little bit disappointed if No Baby’s to be honest. But if Not; I will just be happy that The doe is happy and Healthy


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 26, 2020)

So My doe was hyperventilating yesterday. Refused her food. Flat in the cage. Took her to The vet despite of Corona. Two vets checked her out. They didn’t know What was wrong. All vitals are fine and poop and urine normal. One vet Thanks she is still hormonal from a false pregnancy
The other palpated her and was in doubt. Hé thinks he felt something, But Not sure

came home and she (ofcourse) started Eating. This morning I noticed that she is moving The fur to The stack of hey. She either is still pregnant or this is a very long false pregnancy


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## Bunnylady (Mar 26, 2020)

My rabbits congratulate your doe - sounds like she's driving _everyone_ crazy!


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## Ridgetop (Mar 28, 2020)

She is probably still pregnancy.  A  false pregnancy can continue the entire time a real one would.  Since your doe is not due for another couple days, don't worry about it.  If she is pregnant she will kindle in her nest.  If it is a false pregnancy she will build her nest.  The end of a false pregnancy can end in expulsion of fluid, or gradual abandonment of the nest.  Rabbits seldom abort.  Instead they can reabsorb their fetuses.

Was the cage in the sun or a hot area?  Laying stretched out and hyperventilating or panting can be signs of overheating in rabbits.  They can stand very cold temperatures but not much heat.  

Since you are counting the breeding as March 1, she is not due until the 30-32.  This is still 3-5 days away.  DO NOT remove the next box for another several days after the due date.  I had a doe not kindle on the due date so a couple days later I removed the nest box.  2 days after that she kindled on the wire and I lost the entre litter.  Wait until 40 days after the last date she was with the buck to remove the nest box.  

By the way, don't let them "play together" anymore unless you want babies.  LOL


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 29, 2020)

thanks

No... No more playing untill 6 weeks after The Bucks castration.

The doe pulled fur again this morning. I saw movement in the belly. She is clearly uncomfortable, But No sign of Babies yet.


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 30, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> She is probably still pregnancy.  A  false pregnancy can continue the entire time a real one would.  Since your doe is not due for another couple days, don't worry about it.  If she is pregnant she will kindle in her nest.  If it is a false pregnancy she will build her nest.  The end of a false pregnancy can end in expulsion of fluid, or gradual abandonment of the nest.  Rabbits seldom abort.  Instead they can reabsorb their fetuses.
> 
> Was the cage in the sun or a hot area?  Laying stretched out and hyperventilating or panting can be signs of overheating in rabbits.  They can stand very cold temperatures but not much heat.
> 
> ...



Goodmorning! One mode question; she pulled fur 24 Hours ago


how long after pulling fur do they normally kindle?


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## promiseacres (Mar 30, 2020)

Some does  pull days and days ahead, some pull hours before, some afterwards.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 30, 2020)

promiseacres said:


> Some does  pull days and days ahead, some pull hours before, some afterwards.



And some continue to pull for days afterward, especially during cool weather.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Mar 30, 2020)

I always check my nesting boxes each morning after they fulled fur..to see if she kindled, and if the kits are ok.  I’ve had a doe...well, she ate her litters twice..she doesn’t get another chance.


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 30, 2020)

Oh The vet was wrong!

My dwarf doe gave birth to 5 Babies! 4 are Alive. One (big One) was a stillborn

mom did perfect
She is eating now

I hope she will feed them and that they grow up to be little fluffy bundels of Joy

I actually filmed The birth with The WiFi camera.


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## animalmom (Mar 31, 2020)

Well congrats to you and the new momma!  Way to go!

Rabbit mothers are not like cat mothers in that they don't pay much attention to the babies (kits).  If a kit gets dragged out of the nest box the mom is not capable of picking it up and putting it back.  Also moms nurse twice a day... the jump in the box and sit or lay there and it is up to the kits to find their way to a nipple.  Rest assured the kits usually find breakfast and dinner.  So don't be alarmed if you don't see the new mom be motherly.


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## kim&sjoerd (Mar 31, 2020)

animalmom said:


> Well congrats to you and the new momma!  Way to go!
> 
> Rabbit mothers are not like cat mothers in that they don't pay much attention to the babies (kits).  If a kit gets dragged out of the nest box the mom is not capable of picking it up and putting it back.  Also moms nurse twice a day... the jump in the box and sit or lay there and it is up to the kits to find their way to a nipple.  Rest assured the kits usually find breakfast and dinner.  So don't be alarmed if you don't see the new mom be motherly.



Thanks! I actually saw her feed them earlier this evening

One of them got launched out of The nestbox when she got out and we put it back. She came later to check on them. She is always around and has her eyes on The nest The whole time.

she looks to be a good mom

Thanks for your advise


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## Ridgetop (Apr 2, 2020)

Congratulations!   Four is a nice size litter for a dwarf breed and first time mama.  What colors do you think they will be?


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## kim&sjoerd (Apr 3, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Congratulations!   Four is a nice size litter for a dwarf breed and first time mama.  What colors do you think they will be?


5 actually 
One died
She is a great mommy 
She feeds them while we sit next to it.
They are happy and are growing at a fast rate

The doe is a beige/tan and The Buck is a tricolour harlequin

The baby’s are white with black spots (buckshot pattern), two harlequin tricolors like dad and a solid beige like mom.

we weighed them yesterday (day 4)
Took photo during weighing 

Regards Kim


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## animalmom (Apr 3, 2020)

Cutie patooties!


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Apr 5, 2020)

They are very sweet and congrats!!  Are these your first bunnies?


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