# Is my wethers a buck?



## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 27, 2020)

I have a Nigerian Dwarf wether baby who got wethered using a new method. His balls are growing and they are supposed to shrink. Did the method not work and he is a buck? How do I know? I can do pictures if needed to


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 27, 2020)

@Ridgetop @chickens really


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## Mike CHS (Jul 27, 2020)

How long ago was the attempt to wether him and what was the method?


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 27, 2020)

About 2 weeks ago and I don't know the method, it wasn't banding though.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 27, 2020)

Maybe they used a Burdizzo...it's a clamp like instrument that is supposed to sever the spermatic cord and blood vessels leading to the testicles which causes them to shrivel up within the scrotum.  If the person applying the clamps isn't pretty experienced there can be a high failure rate.

The Burdizzo method isn't necessarily new, but I don't think it's as common as a surgical castration or a banding.  If it wasn't done correctly your "wether" may certainly be a buckling.









						Castration - Burdizzo
					

Castration in Angora goats is performed to improve herd management and benefit life-time welfare of the goat...



					www.angoras.co.za
				




*Burdizzo method*
_
The Burdizzo (emasculatome)  crushes the spermatic cord and stops the blood supply to the testes. Without this blood supply, the testicles atrophy (shrivel up) but the scrotum remains intact. It is a bloodless technique and less painful than surgical castration. The ideal age for this procedure is up to12 weeks in order to be able to identify the spermatic corn on palpation. This method must be used if an adult Angora goat needs to be castrated.

As with other castration methods tetanus and pain relief must be covered. An appropriate sized burdizzo must be used (not a cattle burdizzo)

The method may also be less reliable due to the difficulty in identifying the spermatic cords._


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 27, 2020)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Maybe they used a Burdizzo...it's a clamp like instrument that is supposed to sever the spermatic cord and blood vessels leading to the testicles which causes them to shrivel up within the scrotum.  If the person applying the clamps isn't pretty experienced there can be a high failure rate.
> 
> The Burdizzo method isn't necessarily new, but I don't think it's as common as a surgical castration or a banding.  If it wasn't done correctly your "wether" may certainly be a buckling.
> 
> ...


No the lady who did it was experienced, it was the lady from Kickapoo creek! I don't know what it's called but when I do i will let you know!


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## chickens really (Jul 28, 2020)

Call the lady back and discuss the procedure with her. She will let you know what was done and what the process should look like. Good luck!


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 28, 2020)

Do you want any pictures?


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## chickens really (Jul 28, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> Do you want any pictures?


Are his testicals shrivelled up at all? They should be getting smaller after two weeks. Have a Vet out to look at him.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jul 28, 2020)

If the person didn't  have success with the procedure  that they used, I would take him to a vet.....best of luck to you  and your goat


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 28, 2020)

*no they at shriveled up*


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 28, 2020)

His brother's are smaller and his seem to be growing!


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## secuono (Jul 28, 2020)

Ask the breeder.
Also, if he's young enough, you can just band them and be certain.


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## Mini Horses (Jul 28, 2020)

I can tell you that the Burdizzo method will NOT shrivel as fast.  Plus, if an older goat they wiill often need to clamp differently.  At any rate, when I do this "clamp" method, I do 2 clamps, one slightly above/below the other one....in case!  It is obvious that it is uncomfortable when doing it....they scream!!!    The banding seems faster and less issue, judging from their reactions.     Hey, I had a friend call today to ask me to band two for her.  This time she says 2 mo olds.   Hope so, last ones were almost 4 months and well, she wasn't a good holder!  It got done but, not before some wrangling and hog tying.   Poor babies.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 29, 2020)

There is also the possibility that the testicles are growing larger due to swelling.  It is possible that there is an infection.   The testicles usually shrivel and after 2 weeks it would be apparent however, if they are actually  *GROWING *larger in size something is wrong  If the burdizzo method failed, the testicles should remain similar in size to what they were 2 weeks ago when the procedure was performed, not grow noticeably. 

Take the kid's temperature.  Are the testicles hard?  Do they feel hot?  Are they more tender to the touch than normal?  If they feel normal and there is no temperature then I would just go ahead and band him as if he had not been castrated.  Better safe than sorry in my opinion.  I don't castrate my market lambs anymore since they bring more $$ as entires, but since you are keeping these wethers as pets, don take chances.  

If he has not had a tetanus (CDT) be sure to give him one to rule out tetanus.  If he has not received his CDT shots then you will need to give him Tetanus Antitoxin which confers immediate protection when you band.  Normal CDT vaccine does not give immediate tetanus protection.  I give 1 ml to my lambs sub Q before docking along with their normal CDT sub Q vaccine.  I give it under the loose skin in the groin.  The action of the lamb's movement as it walks and runs keeps any vaccine lump from forming.  Antitoxin gives immediate protection while the CDT takes a week or so for the tetanus portion to kick in.  Since I band my Dorper ewes' tails I need immediate protection at or before 1 week old.  

A number of years ago, the Australian lamb producers decided to try a different type of castration.  Much of Australian lamb back then was produced from smaller wool breeds.  The market producers wanted a faster rate of growth to a larger size.  Ram lambs gain faster than wethers or ewes.  High heat makes rams go sterile temporarily.  The sheep producers decided to try a new method.  Instead of the traditional castration methods, the sheepmen pushed the testicles up into the body cavity and banded the empty sac. The testicles were trapped in the body cavity and the higher body heat kept the rams sterile.  I don't think this method is used any more though since there were other problems.  While the ram lambs usually remained sterile until slaughter, testosterone continued to be produced.  This encouraged ram behavior, and also might have changed the taste of the meat.  I believe this was discontinued after a couple of years.  Now most market producers have simply concentrated on producing genetics for faster growth.  At any rate, it was an interesting experiment.  

One of the problems you can have when banding younger lambs or goats is that one or both of the testicles can slip up and not be caught in the band.  If this happens, just cut the band and try again.


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## Bruce (Jul 29, 2020)

frustratedearthmother said:


> The Burdizzo method isn't necessarily new, but I don't think it's as common as a surgical castration or a banding.


Quite true, it was one of 3 methods we were taught in sheep class back in '76. That, banding and cutting off the bottom of the scrotum with a knife and pulling the testicles out with pliers ... or your teeth. I don't recall anyone in class volunteering to use their teeth. I do recall the poor little ram lambs not caring for the crush or pull methods, several passed out (the sheep not the students).


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 29, 2020)

Poor students lol! I will do pictures and label them when I go down there in a bit


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## Ridgetop (Jul 29, 2020)

Isn't that the really old way - to use your teeth?  You hear about old shepherds doing that but I wonder if anyone really did.  LOL  Pretty yucky, although no confusion about whether or not they are actually castrated!!  LOL  I wouldn't want to be a shepherd's wife though after he spent the day doing that.  No welcome home kiss until after he brushed his teeth and used mouthwash!


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## Mini Horses (Jul 29, 2020)

I've read that they bit them, as with a burdizzo.  Either way,  A good mouth cleaning would be in order!     

Australians tried to make a retained testicle.  Hmmmm.  Never knew but, then, I haven't raised sheep.   My goats are left intact, better sales.  It also makes for a separate penning regimen!  PITA for a while.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 31, 2020)

Here are some pics!

First set is Luke's(one I think is a wether)
Second set is Whiskeys (his bro, how they are supposed to look)


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## chickens really (Aug 1, 2020)

I'd call a vet and have them both banded. They both look to be unfazed by the first procedure. With banding it's a sure way of knowing what is going on.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

So Whiskey's lookes to be shrinking while Lukes is doing nothing


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## Ridgetop (Aug 1, 2020)

How old are these goats?

The testicles in the pix both looked pretty similar to me and like normal testicles.  If they were done 3 weeks ago at this point, they should be much smaller and obviously shriveling up.  I would go ahead and band both of them since they look like normal testicles at this point.

You never said what was the "new" technique the breeder used.  

I prefer the banding method since the testicles actually fall off after a couple weeks, leaving no doubt that they are no longer functional!  LOL  And I hate the crunching noise of the burdizzo!  UGH!  With banding you just have to make sure that the urethra is not caught in the band.  Not a problem usually since the baby will nurse from either mama or a bottle and pee.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

I don't know what the "new techinque" was since I never really had time to ask since I am super busy. I know the boys got them down at 10 weeks of age and I think they maybe 12-13 weeks of age


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## Ridgetop (Aug 1, 2020)

I think I would just band them if you are worried.  Easier to band now that have to do a surgical castration when they are a year old.  
Elastrator and bands runs less than $25 and is cheaper than a vet call.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

ok, we will try. We are just super busy. I think we might band, but I also want our doe to be breed, she is registered but Luke isn't registered


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## Ridgetop (Aug 1, 2020)

I am confused.  If you wanted to breed your doe to one of these bucks why did you castrate them?  If you wanted wethers for pets but want to breed the doe ask the breeder if she will do stud service on the doe when it is time. 

Since the doe is registered, why breed her to an unregistered buck?  That doesn't make any sense.  Instead, bred her to a registered buck of her breed.  The kids will be more valuable and you will be sure of what you have in the final product.

Keeping a buck to use for one doe is too much work since you have to keep him separated from the doe except when breeding.  Also they stink badly during breeding season and neither you nor your children will want to touch or play with him.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

No so we bought them as wethers, but then this situation happened, me and my family want to breed but aren't ready to yet. So I want to breed our doe Dixie but I can't. We won't wethers and does since no breeding


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## Ridgetop (Aug 1, 2020)

There is no rush to breed Dixie since she is still a baby.  Go ahead and wether the buck kids.  When you have time and want to breed Dixie, contact her breeder and ask about stud service.  The breeder can probably put you in touch with someone who will provide registered stud service.  

Since you bought Dixie to show, she does not have to be bred until she is 1 year old.  She will freshen as a 2 year old. She can show as a kid and then as a dry yearling until she is 2.  At 2 she has to be in milk to show.  Since you bought her to show, you want her kids to be registered.  

You can't show her daughters unless they are registered.  There is no reason to keep any sons from her.  You already have several pet wethers, and if you are sincere about showing you should only be keeping daughters and granddaughters since they are all you can show.  Goats tend to multiply rapidly and are fun so be careful about how many wethers you keep as pets if you plan to be showing.  Does are wonderful pets too, and can all be shown in various classes.  Once Dixie has several daughters you can also show her and her daughters in Herd class, and in Produce of Dam class, as well as in the various age classes.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

she is a year old


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

and Luke has really good lines too


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## Ridgetop (Aug 1, 2020)

But f he s not registered you don't want to breed your show doe to him.  Also, he may not be a buck any longer if the castration process took.  Call Dixie's breeder and ask about getting her bred.  Some breeders will take back does they bred and sold and board them while they make sure they get bred.  They will charge you a stud fee ad a boarding fee.  They will have to keep her for at least a month to make sure she has cycled twice and was bred.  Some breeders may offer to rent you a buck to breed her at your place.

Call her breeder and discuss your options with her.  If this is a show doe, you need to breed her to a registered buck or you are wasting your money.  No matter how good the lines are on an unregistered buck, his offspring cannot be registered and that means that any of Dixie's kids are barred from registration and from showing.  Since you plan to show, do not even consider that sort of breeding.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 1, 2020)

ok


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## chickens really (Aug 2, 2020)

I'm confused because in another thread about Dixie you mentioned the breeder said you can bring her back for a free breeding. If  they live down the road why don't you take her there and get her bred so she kids after January 1st to a registered Buck. I'm also confused about the new wether kids being castrated but not showing symptoms of castration. I would call that breeder back and explain your concerns. You say your too busy but have time to start threads. A phone call would take less time. I hope you get all your concerns figured out soon..👍


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## Ridgetop (Aug 2, 2020)

chickens really said:


> I'm confused because in another thread about Dixie you mentioned the breeder said you can bring her back for a free breeding. If they live down the road why don't you take her there and get her bred so she kids after January 1st to a registered Buck. I'm also confused about the new wether kids being castrated but not showing symptoms of castration. I would call that breeder back and explain your concerns. You say your too busy but have time to start threads. A phone call would take less time. I hope you get all your concerns figured out soon..



Chickens really is absolutely right.  Run them up the road and have her look at them,  If they are not correctly castrated you absolutely don't want them getting to your registered show doe!  At a year old she is certainly old enough to carry a pregnancy to term, but like I said before *IF YOU ARE PLANNING ON SHOWING DIXIE, YOU WANT HER BRED TO A QUALITY REGISTERED BUCK.*

Sometimes we  have to *make* time to take care of business.  This is important business for the start of your show goat herd.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 2, 2020)

If Dixie is preganat, how can i tell if her udder is dropping! I can do Pictures


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 2, 2020)

The reason I am asking This is because her udders seems to be larger than usual


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## chickens really (Aug 3, 2020)

How could she be pregnant all ready? Aren't the kids only 12 weeks? Have they been Bucky and exposing their penis at this age? You need a Buck for her to be pregnant. I thought it would be months before udder development even if she is bred.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 3, 2020)

Well it just seems to be larger than normal, Luke has been trying to hump Whiskey a lot and Dixie seems to be getting larger and before I could never see her Teats and udder area, and now I can


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## chickens really (Aug 3, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> Well it just seems to be larger than normal, Luke has been trying to hump Whiskey a lot and Dixie seems to be getting larger and before I could never see her Teats and udder area, and now I can


Wethers/Does mount each other. Not always a breeding reason but dominate behaviour. Take a picture of her udder.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 3, 2020)

I


chickens really said:


> Wethers/Does mount each other. Not always a breeding reason but dominate behaviour. Take a picture of her udder.


I defintly will! She's eating right now so I won't  be able to, but when I am gonna use her i will send a pic of her udder area


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## MuldrowHomeFarm (Aug 3, 2020)

If Dixie were pregnant and her udder was larger,  she would be in her last month of a 5 month pregnancy.  Udders do not form until the end of pregnancy in goats. So neither Luke or Whiskey would be the sire.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 3, 2020)

It's not full! It's just larger


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## chickens really (Aug 3, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> It's not full! It's just larger


Do you mean her nipples/teats are larger? That's normal for a year old Doe.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 3, 2020)

chickens really said:


> Do you mean her nipples/teats are larger? That's normal for a year old Doe.


Yes! But, but before i couldn't see her udder area! I will send pics in a bit gonna go on a call at 8:20AM so 14 Mintues


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## chickens really (Aug 3, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> Yes! But, but before i couldn't see her udder area! I will send pics in a bit gonna go on a call at 8:20AM so 14 Mintues


You don't see them on baby goats or young Does till they mature.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 3, 2020)

Right, but she seems to be getting wider and


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## Ridgetop (Aug 3, 2020)

She is a year old.  It is not uncommon to see the young immature udder show up in a yearling and the nipples become more prominant.  Palpate the udder area.  it should be soft and empty like a soft glove.  If it is hard and firm, call the vet.  Dry does can get mastitis.  Dry does from heavy milking lines can also develop premature udders and become precocious milkers.  I had one of these, who milked at a year old *WITHOUT *being bred*.  *There is also such a thing as a false pregnancy.  I have seen one of these too.  If this is what is happening then when her body tells her she is at term she will pass the empty placenta and  bellyful of fluid.

You said your breeder is close by, call her and ask her to look at the doe.  If she is close to kidding which the appearance of a real udder would imply she would have been bred 4-5 months ago.  You have had her 8 months with no bucks around,  If that is correct she *cannot* be pregnant since she was *never exposed* *to a buck*.

If by some miracle she is pregnant, she is one year old and will give birth without any problems.  Stop worrying.  there is nothing you can do about it anyway except have her checked by the vet for mastitis.  *DO NOT CONSIDER LUTELYSE TO ABORT A SUSPECTED PREGNANCY.  It will cause more problems than it would solve. *


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## Bruce (Aug 3, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> I had one of these, who milked at a year old *WITHOUT *being bred*.*


That's what I need, milk without the offspring!


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## Ridgetop (Aug 4, 2020)

Precocious milkers don't milk much - maybe a pint.  They take a lot of care too.  Since I had others in milk who were star mikers this was not worth the effort so I dried her up.  Once she kidded she milked copious amounts of milk.  Unfortunately, she was our Toggenburg. Beautiful doe with a champion udder, but Toggs are known for their disgusting tasting milk!  Probably used to make *Limburger* cheese!  At the time we were not yet raising calves so we eventually sold all our Toggs.  We had Nubians - best milk, LaManchas - good milk also, Alpines - didn't like their milk that much either and sold them, but the  Togg milk was awful.  At the time the Toggs stayed in milk when the Nubians went off to be bred but in order to stomach the taste and get the children to drink it, I loaded it with chocolate milk powder.


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## Bruce (Aug 4, 2020)

Rats


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## SaanenMom (Aug 5, 2020)

MuldrowHomeFarm said:


> If Dixie were pregnant and her udder was larger,  she would be in her last month of a 5 month pregnancy.  Udders do not form until the end of pregnancy in goats. So neither Luke or Whiskey would be the sire.



She can easily have a precocious udder....my Saanens with milky lines get them all the time usually after 10 mths old.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 5, 2020)

What is that?


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## Jesusfreak101 (Aug 5, 2020)

i have a toggenburg/nubian doe  her milk is awesome.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 5, 2020)

What is a prescious udder?


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## Jesusfreak101 (Aug 5, 2020)

it where a doe who has never been bred comes into milk. she freshens with out the need for a buck i also have heard it refer to does who give birth one year but dont need to be rebred because they dont stop producing milk. Its because of their milk lines the more you breed for strong milk production lines it can happen. some times the produce a large amount of milk but most i heard about only produce small amounts of milk at a time unless we talking about the ones that have a kids and are still able to milk for a longer time then what is normal for a doe.


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## chickens really (Aug 6, 2020)

Take a picture of her udder. 👍


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 6, 2020)

chickens really said:


> Take a picture of her udder. 👍


Oh right ok!


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 6, 2020)

chickens really said:


> Take a picture of her udder. 👍


Here's a pic of her udder


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 6, 2020)

Udder


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## chickens really (Aug 6, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> Udder


Oh it is bigger..without a Buck she isn't pregnant so possibly false pregnancy, mastitis or precocious udder?


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 6, 2020)

False pregnancy? How? What would mastitis do? She has no milk


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Aug 6, 2020)

chickens really said:


> Oh it is bigger..without a Buck she isn't pregnant so possibly false pregnancy, mastitis or precocious udder?


False pregancy? How? Will she produce milk? Is it possible for pregancy from the boys?


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## chickens really (Aug 7, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> False pregnancy? How? What would mastitis do? She has no milk


Wait and see what happens. Get a vet to check her.


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## rachels.haven (Aug 7, 2020)

If you need to know if she's pregnant, you can draw blood and send it in yourself. UBRL does preg testing. Other labs do too. She is probably not and just getting hormonal (ready) for fall.

If you want to know if your buck is a wether and you can't get down to ask, separate him off with another male and wait a few weeks. Rut is coming and you will know because they will show you more than you EVER wanted to see.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 7, 2020)

Why don't you want to call the breeder about this?


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## chickens really (Aug 8, 2020)

All we can do is guess at what your doe is displaying. If you really want the answer get a vet involved. You will have your answers then. 👍


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