# when to put ram in with ewes/ewe-lambs? opinions welcomed



## patandchickens (Oct 20, 2010)

Now that it's getting towards time to do this, I am feeling all ignorant and insecure and disorganized again, so it is opinion poll time 

I have a 2 yr old shetland ewe, and two dairybred (British Milksheep X Dorset) ewe-lambs. The dairy ewe-lambs were born in January, so they are reasonably mature, and the woman who sold them to me said it would be okay to breed them this year but she'd wait til November or December so they are well-grown.

I would prefer early April lambs if at all possible, ideally not later than early May lambs, for various personal-scheduling reasons. (e.t.a. - I do of course realize that whatever happens happens, and I can live with that )

I assume they are probably all cycling but b/c they are in a location not easily seen from the house have not really been able to observe well. Some days one or the other does seem to stick closely to the fenceline shared with the ram pen (*hopefully* he has not already bred anyone thru the fence, but I can't be certain), but other than that, I have no clue.

So when would you chuck the ram in with them? 

All opinions and rationales appreciated,

Pat


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Oct 20, 2010)

Pat, I totally understand your feeling insecure about doing things. I still feel that way sometimes when it's time to make decisions, even if it's something I've done several times before!  

If you put the ram in around the first of November, that will give you lambs beginning around April 1 (or very last days of March) assuming the ewes will be bred fairly early on in your breeding season.  I'd go ahead and put them in around that date, because if they don't get bred right away, or if it takes more than 1 cycle to settle, you'll be getting later lambs.  This will give you a little leeway before May arrives.  I'd leave him with the girls at least 3 heat cycles.  I like leaving them together for at least 60 days.

Where are they penned now? Is the ram adjacent to the ewes, or far apart? If they're far apart, pen them right next to each other and that will help the ewes synchronize estrus cycles so when it is time to breed they'll all hopefully settle around the same time.  

Also, do you have a marking harness? If not, I'd definitely recommend getting one or at least get Rattle Powder or a marking crayon. It's SOOO much nicer come lambing season when you have an expected due date! It really takes the guessing out of lambing, plus you won't worry if each ewe was bred because you'll be able to see it.  

Good luck!


----------



## patandchickens (Oct 20, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Pat, I totally understand your feeling insecure about doing things. I still feel that way sometimes when it's time to make decisions, even if it's something I've done several times before!


Thank you 



> If you put the ram in around the first of November, that will give you lambs beginning around April 1 (or very last days of March) assuming the ewes will be bred fairly early on in your breeding season.


Is it reasonable to assume that a ram (he is a yearling, I do not know if he was used for breeding before or not, probably not?) will settle the girls on their first couple cycles, or is it not-uncommon for it to take longer? I just have no clue.



> I'd leave him with the girls at least 3 heat cycles.  I like leaving them together for at least 60 days.


I was planning on asking this later in the winter but since you brought it up  can I leave him with them for longer, just for convenience, until they are needing enough grain and higher-octane hay (due to advanced pregnancy) that it's hard to have him in with them?



> Where are they penned now? Is the ram adjacent to the ewes, or far apart?


I would have preferred to have them far apart or at least on the other side of the barn, but um what with one thing and another the only accommodations available has been adjacent pens. So, there is no issue of putting him alongside to stimulate/synchronize them, he's been alongside them since early August.



> Also, do you have a marking harness? If not, I'd definitely recommend getting one or at least get Rattle Powder or a marking crayon. It's SOOO much nicer come lambing season when you have an expected due date! It really takes the guessing out of lambing, plus you won't worry if each ewe was bred because you'll be able to see it.


The idea is powerfully attractive to me, especially being basically clueless about birthin' lambs. However I am concerned about rendering the fleeces unusable (my m-i-l wants the shetlands' fleeces again next year, and although I am only planning to use the dairy girls' fleeces for quilt batting I do not want crud on them that will potentially stain thru the quilt). Is there anything I can use that will absolutely positively wash out easily with HAND washing? (the commercial raddle markers and crayons I am seeing in catalogs only seem to be *machine* scourable, which doesn't help me)

Thanks very much,

Pat


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Oct 20, 2010)

patandchickens said:
			
		

> Is it reasonable to assume that a ram (he is a yearling, I do not know if he was used for breeding before or not, probably not?) will settle the girls on their first couple cycles, or is it not-uncommon for it to take longer? I just have no clue.


I would say it's highly likely they'll all get settled the first cycle, but sometimes the ewe won't settle. I'd guess it depends on each individual animal, but it could be either one.  For example, my Romney ram lamb (born in Feb) is now in with my Southdown ewe, Darla.  I saw her come into heat and he did his best to mount. I never actually saw penetration, but he very possibly could have bred her earlier in the day.  I'm waiting to see if she comes into heat again. Hopefully he did get the job done, and isnt' too short like I thought he might be.  



> I was planning on asking this later in the winter but since you brought it up  can I leave him with them for longer, just for convenience, until they are needing enough grain and higher-octane hay (due to advanced pregnancy) that it's hard to have him in with them?


Absolutely!



> I would have preferred to have them far apart or at least on the other side of the barn, but um what with one thing and another the only accommodations available has been adjacent pens. So, there is no issue of putting him alongside to stimulate/synchronize them, he's been alongside them since early August.


Great!



> The idea is powerfully attractive to me, especially being basically clueless about birthin' lambs. However I am concerned about rendering the fleeces unusable (my m-i-l wants the shetlands' fleeces again next year, and although I am only planning to use the dairy girls' fleeces for quilt batting I do not want crud on them that will potentially stain thru the quilt). Is there anything I can use that will absolutely positively wash out easily with HAND washing? (the commercial raddle markers and crayons I am seeing in catalogs only seem to be *machine* scourable, which doesn't help me)
> 
> Thanks very much,
> 
> Pat


Well, I've always used the marking crayons and to be honest, I don't remember any of my girls ever still being marked come shearing time.  What you can do if you want is use the crayon sans harness and just paint it on his chest (his chest/stomach wool will be tossed when you skirt the fleece anyhow).  That way you still get him marking the ewe, but it won't be as thick of a crayon marking as it would if the whole crayon was on his chest.  Just check every few days to see if you need to add more.  Something that also helps is changing the crayon color after every heat cycle.  Just count 17 days after you put him in and then change the color.  It's easiest to go from light colors to dark colors, so you can see if he marks a color on top of another color.  

If your ewes ever are out in the rain, the marker should get washed off just fine.


----------



## patandchickens (Oct 21, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Well, I've always used the marking crayons and to be honest, I don't remember any of my girls ever still being marked come shearing time.  What you can do if you want is use the crayon sans harness and just paint it on his chest (his chest/stomach wool will be tossed when you skirt the fleece anyhow).  That way you still get him marking the ewe, but it won't be as thick of a crayon marking as it would if the whole crayon was on his chest.  Just check every few days to see if you need to add more.


OK then, I will do that! I just have to manage to GET the marking crayons - there are not *too* many times I wish I still lived in the US but shopping for semi-obscure items is one of them  Oh well, if the feedstore can't order them for me I do know of an online source in Canada tho it is a PITA to deal with.



> Something that also helps is changing the crayon color after every heat cycle.


OK, so, do you have any suggestion what color(s) would show up best on a dark brown ewe? Because the shetland is the kind of black that fades to brown and eventually to blonde -- she is sort of chocolate colored at the moment. (The other two are white so presumably anything would show up.) Do you have any experience with what works well on this color, or any crayon colors to avoid? (I assume black would be bad )



> If your ewes ever are out in the rain, the marker should get washed off just fine.


LOL, oh yes indeed they are out in the rain plenty 

Thanks a million,

Pat


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Oct 21, 2010)

Pat can you order online through sources like Premier, Sheepman Supply, etc?  Forgive my ignorance, but I have never ordered anything online from another country.  

Hmm...I was going to suggest yellow, but since you have a dark ewe I'd suggest maybe orange or red, then maybe blue or green?  Black would definitely be out. 

And make sure to get the "soft" crayons meant for cold weather!


----------



## patandchickens (Oct 22, 2010)

I *can* order from the States to have it mailed to Canada, but the duty fees are a KILLER. They easily equal or exceed the cost of the merchandise+postage. Thus I try real hard to do my US shopping when I am *in* the US (have it mailed to my parents, then carry it back with me)

Ha, the co-op store in the next town over actually CARRIES marker crayons, so I purchased yellow and green.

Although now I am not sure whether they are the cold-weather type or not. You'd think? But I dunno. Packaging does not seem to say. Ah well.

Thanks so much,

Pat


----------

