# "Mutts"-rant



## Egg_Newton (Dec 10, 2013)

So, I've been doing research on the web about different dog breeds. I love dogs but my boyfriend hates the hair. So, my search turns to dog breeds that shed less. Turns out there is this "designer dog" poodle mix that would be a nice fit. However, I am a firm believer in adopting a pound puppy way before I would go in search of a breeder. Now before you all scoff and say what a horrible combination it is I am really drawn to a mix called a Doodleman Pinscher. Hate the name, love the dog. Boyfriend loves dobermans I love the low shedding intelligence of the poodle. Both wonderfully smart breeds and offspring looks like an Irish Wolfhound. In my research I've found people freaking out about this mix. Like "how dare they mix two pure bred dogs to produce such a mutt. Taint an AKC purebred doberman by breeding him to a (snicker) poodle"?!?!?! Don't these people understand that this is the way new breeds are developed? The best dog I ever had was an unknown mix from the animal shelter.They said greyhound/pit mix. I think plott hound/doberman mix. Smartest, sweetest, well mannered boy I've ever had the pleasure to welcome into my family. His only downfall is he should be bald with all the fur he loses all over my house and sneaking on the furniture when no one is around. Why are people so freaked out by mixed breeds? My goats? mini-nubians. developed by crossing ND to standard nubians. Lots of yummy milk at 3/4 the size and also hardier. My chickens? Easter-eggers and golden comets. Also, cross breeds. Lovely little egg layers even thru the winter. Mixes are great! What do you think?



Doodleman Pinscher



Winston (the brindle) my Plotterman Hound Pinscher
eta-side note. the Boston Terrier in this picture was a retired breeder. Tossed because she was no longer useful. Neurotic, peed on the floor if you left her home alone out of her crate, mean as heck to other girl dogs but hey she was pure bred with papers and a tattoo...btw I loved her to death with all her crazy


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## promiseacres (Dec 10, 2013)

depends on who you talk to, my 2 dogs are mutts, my sheep technically are but qualify to be reg as Painted desert andDesert Dragon as it's a new "breed" If you like a mix go for it! BTW I love mini nubians, if I ever get a goat that's my first choice of goat.


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## Bossroo (Dec 10, 2013)

With the dogs you already have , it sounds like that mutt would be just one dog too many.


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## Andrei (Dec 10, 2013)

By natural genetics laws mutts are superior to pure breeds due to open genetic opportunistic diversity.
Healthier, more adaptable, more intelligent, more active.
Most intelligent dog I ever had was a German Shepherd mix with Belgian Sheep Dog.
Intelligence beyond expectation.
And for 15 yrs I breed and trained Black German Shepherds and some ended up at police departments.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2013)

Mutts can make great pets that is for sure. With mixing different breeds there can be some benefits, like hybrid vigor. However, that is not always the case. The development of breeds is a lot more complex however than just mixing 2 breeds together. It takes years and years and a great  deal of understanding by the breeder to reach a desired goal. Sadly many of these so called “designer breeds” are being “bred” by those that have no clue what they are doing and they will not be breeding multiple generations to achieve a perfected new breed.

The “designer” dog you mentioned… Doberman/ Poodle… take a look at this broken down a bit.

*Doberman* is a working (also known as utility) breed. High human aggression, highly protective, highly intelligent. Within this breed you will have soft and hard dogs with varying drive. Temperament testing is critical for the breed. They are short haired, SHEDDING dogs.  Some of the health concerns for this breed….

Hip dysplasia
Autoimmune thyroiditis
Von Willebrands disease
Eye issue
Torsion
Dermatitis
*Soundness(for working dog)


*Standard Poodle* was originally a retrieving dog. They love water! Loyal companions with a more friendly disposition. Non-shedding however their coat will continue to grow and grow requiring regular grooming. Some of the health concerns for this breed…

Hip dysplasia along with elbow a patella issues
Thyroid
Cushings Disease
Addisons Disease
Eye issues
Epilepsy
Torsion
Dermatitis
Cardiac

Now, the breeder has crossed two breeds with complete _different purposes_. Were the dogs sound to begin with? Will the dog end up shedding or not? Will constant grooming be required? Will you end up with hybrid vigor or a genetic nightmare?  Is the breeder continuing on working to develop the breed? You have a high drive Doberman that is a lot of dog for most people, their energy alone requires an owner that can handle the intensity and then crossing it with a low drive less active poodle.

The problem with these Designer Breeds is they are not. I have seen many list ads for Boxers claiming “the rare white boxer” then people get ripped off believing these are rare and special… UH, genetic nightmare and until the “lets save everything” movement began, were put down because they were genetic mutant nightmares… but than again there’s a sucker born every minute. LOL

Ultimately what was the breeders reason for this cross?  Many breeds were developed to bring about a dog with purpose, better guardians, herders, hunters etc.

In the Livestock Guardian world it is very common to cross a LGD breed with a  LGD breed. One for vigor and also the Pyrenees seems to bring about calmer more human tolerant dogs. Anatolians are also heavily crossed to bring about shorter coats less issue with coat and do better in warmer climates. Again though, these are dogs with the same working goal, ability. LGD breeders do not cross their dogs with NON-LGD breeds. Period.  

Unfortunately many that are doing the breeding of the so called “designer breeds” have found a way to make a mutt and profit big money from it. Those that truly develop dogs to bring about a new breed delicate a lifetime to it have generation after generation and focus on a real desired goal. Often the pups produced are not being sold for big money but are more often placed in good homes without the big money.

*That is where the anger/disdain comes from. This is also why there are so many shelters now, people practicing “willy nilly” breeding for a dollar. Hybrid vigor is not guaranteed either. Both the good and the bad stuff gets passed down.*

BTW- I think he is adorable and yes he does look a lot like a wolfhound! 

Also I like mutts! One of the best dogs we have is a Boxer/Lab mutt… *free* outside of Walmart.  She came from an accidental breeding… the lady was very embarrassed about it, the momma was spayed right after. _Lucy_ has been with us for 8 years and she is awesome! I just hate to see so many people being taken advantage of over these so called designer dogs. One fad after another.

Goats- We cross our Lamancha with our Nigerians for mini manchas…. Purpose … milk goats that are smaller like the Nigie but with larger teats and output like the Lamancha. 2 different breeds yet with the same purpose.


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## Egg_Newton (Dec 10, 2013)

Thank u Southern for your well thought out reply. I completely agree with everything you said. I only found one person who has started really developing this breed. Everyone else is just breeding the two together for a quick buck.And knowing me when the time comes for a new house companion I'll probably just go to the shelter and get a pound puppy. I've volunteered at a couple animal shelters (that's how I got my Winston) I am well aware of the over population problem and how many great pets are just sitting in cages with no 
one to love them. Some as pure breeds too.
 For the record, this is more just research for right now. I have one dog, Winston.  He will be 10 next month. My Bostie passed 4 years
ago.


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## Bossroo (Dec 10, 2013)

I worked at a University Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital where I performed many necropsies on many breeds and mixes.  Many more  of the mutts had more inherited ( leg joints, stomach tortions, enlarged hearts, too short intestines, tumors in most organs and bones, etc.)    issues than the purebreds. Also, when one gets a dog from these no kill shelters, there is a reason why they are there in the first place as quite a few have behavior problems that their former owners didn't want to deal with.  Then too, one doesn't know what diseases the dog has been exposed to and then show up a week or two after one brings them home. Just 3 examples this past year... a friend brought home a mongrel female puppy, a week later it came down with parvo and had to be put down... Vet charged  over $400.  My daughter brought home a chihuahua mix home from one of these shelters for her 2 kids... it was microchiped there, however whoever did it botched the application as it was placed deep into the neck muscles. 2 months later this dog needed that chip removed surgically.  4 months later, the dog needed another surgery to remove a tumor at the application site.  Then another surgery... $250 adoption fee, then just over $2,000 for 3 surgeries. This poor dog is now walking with a very limiting limp due to removal of muscles at the neck and shoulder.  My neighbor ( 2 houses away from my house ) got a full grown Lab mix from a shelter.  Within a week, this dog ATE the bottoms to 1/4 of the  siding on one side and 1/2 of another side of their house.  I helped the neighbor to replace 14 4 x 8 sheets of the damaged siding.  Cost  :   14 sheets   X  $39.95 =  $559.30 + skrews + house wrap + paint + disposal fees at the recycle center + took  2 days of our labor. This dog was returned to that shelter . I pity the poor people that this dog will be palmed off to.  ...  Be very careful as to what type of dog as well as where you get the dog from.


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## Andrei (Dec 10, 2013)

Some people make good profit from breeding dogs and I was one of them for some times but I still refuse to be dishonest.
But, I had an owner come back really angry with the German Shepherd puppy his wife picked and left in his new suburban with leather seats for few hours and he had fun with that leather.
Or the puppy that at 4 months ate 2 rabbits running free in the yard.
Or the puppy that left home with grandma chased her around the house all day long.
People blame the dogs for their own mistakes.
It is sad that people are not honest and dogs harts are 100% pure and we break them many times.
I had one of my childhood dogs die in my arms from broken hart.


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## Egg_Newton (Dec 11, 2013)

Usually a dogs bad behavior is because of the person not because of the dog. No training, not enough exercise, no consistency or attention, abuse mishandling. AND there are a lot of dogs in the shelters because people didn't realize they were going to get that big, they get lazy and don't want to take care of them anymore or didn't take proper care of them in the first place so now they misbehave.


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Egg_Newton said:


> Usually a dogs bad behavior is because of the person not because of the dog. No training, not enough exercise, no consistency or attention, abuse mishandling. AND there are a lot of dogs in the shelters because people didn't realize they were going to get that big, they get lazy and don't want to take care of them anymore or didn't take proper care of them in the first place so now they misbehave.


I agree. I have two wonderful German Shepherds that have been nothing but loving & loyal why shouldn't they be treated with the same respect ?!! Each time I get a new puppy , my sister comes with , so she can drive while I bond. I can't even watch that pet rescue show !! I feel those people should be put through the same conditions and hurt they've inflicted. One of my shepherds have allergies , and costs me more. I just deal with it. One doesn't  get rid of a child because it was born blind.... they didn't ask for it...lol..


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## Andrei (Dec 11, 2013)

Allergies can be treated successfully with bee pollen or venom.
There is no good reason to suffer from allergies.


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Andrei said:


> Allergies can be treated successfully with bee pollen or venom.
> There is no good reason to suffer from allergies.


Thanks ! but what kind of allergies does it take care of ?? He is allergic to ( beef , chicken , flees ; 1 bite;, dust mites , and who knows what ?? My house cleaning routine consists of a lot of steam cleaning ... 3 years of ( process of elimination ) and we just might have it.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

Kinder this is more than likely auto-immune issues.


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## Andrei (Dec 11, 2013)

What is the age?
Allergy treatment involves an immune system booster and small dose exposure to the allergen until the immune system can produce the needed defense.
Stinging nettle has a very powerful anti - allergen chemicals.


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Kinder this is more than likely auto-immune issues.


Well I asked about that, but cense he ( zeppelin ) started out his first fall loosing his fur on his belly because of yeast, the vet we had , had me giving him a gruel of cooked ground pork and diced white potatoes. Mean while giving him antibiotics and another pill that I had to wean him from after..Let me tell you ..I fed that to both my G. Shepherds (because one doesn't get with out the other ) twice a day for 3 months..$$$$$ He did clear up for a while, but not completely ,I saw that Zepplin was loosing weight and eye balling my garbage. I begged my vet to let me feed him something else. California Naturals (no grain , no beef and no chicken ) Long story short . He was on and off meds for another year .  then I got a different vet. after lots and lots of medicated baths (  3 than 2 than 1 a week and so on..)  finally the yeast is gone..Poor guy befor it was over he had lost 50 % of his fur. now its just allergies ...

P.S. the other (brandy) has never had any problems..


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## Andrei (Dec 11, 2013)

Sounds like you were milked by a vet for awhile. 
Dogs eat meat.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

Severe allergy issues is an auto-immune issue.  More than likely genetic. 

Although I love my animals I do not veiw them as human and I think it is a fine line between keeping and medicating an animal for life and euthanizing an animal. Many years in the canine world and I more often see people's selfishness keep an animal alive, medicated and suffering. Life long meds do great damage to the animals and we are not doing them any favors. 

For some though they cannot bring themselves to divide the human emotion part. I know this one well... my parents kept a dog alive with allergy issues for years... a genetic nightmare of a dog... allergic to grass, fleas, all things out doors. A dog... allergic to grass. They kept her loaded on meds that affect the liver and kidneys also the chronic misery made for a grouchy dog. One day my mom called crying, asked me to please come get the dog. I did, held her while she was euthanized. Told her how sorry I was that she had been allowed to suffer for so long.
In the end my mom was more upset as to how she had allowed the dogs suffering for so long. This was about 30 some years ago. 

Many forget as we have our pets and we grow so attached and love them so much that they are animals. Dogs are scavengers by nature... meat eaters, trash eaters, whatever can be scavenged, living out on the land... meaning grass.


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Andrei said:


> Sounds like you were milked by a vet for awhile.
> Dogs eat meat.


That's what I was thinking.but doe's one do ?? Some would say I have a trust issue , then wonder why ???


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Andrei said:


> Sounds like you were milked by a vet for awhile.
> Dogs eat meat.


That's what I was thinking.but doe's one do ?? Some would say I have a trust issue , then wonder why ???


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Whats going on with the web.?? You know I called the first vet last winter and said I couldn't take it any more ( to see him loosing his fur for the 2nd winter . You know what they said ?? He's only 2 and a half. We wouldn't do that and even if we did it would cost $250. to do it. I said a 25 cent bullet would get the same results but that's illegal and paying you makes it legal...I hung up on them and found another vet and I wanted to give them a chance. now no signs of yeast  and no meds. for now..


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## Southern by choice (Dec 11, 2013)

YAY! Kinder hopefully it will continue that way! 
I have worked with many vets over the years... some good some bad.


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## Andrei (Dec 11, 2013)

Part of human nature.
We must learn how to read them.


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## kinder (Dec 11, 2013)

Thanks..SBC & Andrei...You"re both so right ..


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