# Best disbudding iron



## Green Acres Farm (Aug 8, 2016)

What is the best and quickest disbudding iron for goats?

Thanks!


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 8, 2016)

@Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer @OneFineAcre @frustratedearthmother 

What do you use?


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 8, 2016)

How does this look?

http://www.jefferspet.com/products/goat-and-small-calf-cast-bronze-dehorner


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 8, 2016)

We've got a Rhinehart.
There is an X30 and an X50.
I'm not sure which.
I think it's the X50


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 8, 2016)

We use this one 
Don't get the small tip

http://www.jefferspet.com/products/x-30-electric-dehorners


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 8, 2016)

How many seconds does it take y'all?


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 8, 2016)

Does anyone have experience disbudding with clove oil? Does it work?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 8, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Does anyone have experience disbudding with clove oil? Does it work?



Yes. I do NOT recommend this method.

The initial study had excellent results however there are many variables that will affect the end results. The initial study was just that...

Clove Oil is highly toxic and can cause death.
*I may at some time do a write up but
PLEASE... do NOT use this method.

*
No one likes to disbud... but it is still the most effective and least dangerous method.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 9, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes. I do NOT recommend this method.
> 
> The initial study had excellent results however there are many variables that will affect the end results. The initial study was just that...
> 
> ...


Okay, don't worry I won't!


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 9, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> We use this one
> Don't get the small tip
> 
> http://www.jefferspet.com/products/x-30-electric-dehorners


So get the calf 1/2 inch one?


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## babsbag (Aug 11, 2016)

I have the 1/2 " one.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 11, 2016)

The 50 or 30 one? How long does it take per bud?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 11, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> The 50 or 30 one? How long does it take per bud?



We have the 30 and I think it is the 1/2 tip.

As far as time it depends on the goat and size of bud.
My Nigies are done usually less time than my standards and bucks are done differently as well.


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## babsbag (Aug 11, 2016)

I have the 30 with the 1/2" tip. I can't help with technique as I am horrible at it and have friends do it for me.  

I used to have people tell me that I couldn't use an extension cord as the iron wouldn't get hot enough. As long as you use a big enough cord, I use a 12 gauge, it is fine.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 11, 2016)

1. ALWAYS have ice packs ready!
2. Put ice pack on between burns.
3. After you burn hold pack on for a few minutes then spray dermaplast on both burns!

Burn when you feel the nub and it can move still. Often people wait too long and the horn is already forming underneath.

Bucks and especially standard bucks are hardest... because some are born with the horns just about to poke through. That is generally a scur waiting to happen. For standard bucks the buck tip which you'd need the 50 for may make a big difference.

Buck tips on Nigies may not provide the burn area where it needs to be- IOW to far outside the bud.

The buck tip I WARN YOU- does have a much larger surface to it... that is alot of burn and heat on the skull... so IMO I think larger bucks would fare better. Nigies are so tiny I worry about their heads heating up too much.

BUT I am going to tag @OneFineAcre  because he uses the buck tip and has Nigerians so he has more to offer on the use of this... maybe he can show a picture too.

Also going to talk about the clove oil in another post.... coming soon!


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 11, 2016)

I'll comment tomorrow when I have my laptop out


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 11, 2016)

Thanks for the tips! I'd like my dad to do it- not the vet as I have heard and seen the results of the vet disbudding ( HUGE scurs- pretty much horns, but I do want the vet to show us how to do the lidocaine)
 We are also having another breeder show us how to do it, but any advice is very much appreciated. 
How many seconds long can you do without worrying you are heating up the skull too much? How many times do you burn? I know it is different for boys and girls.
 What meds to you give? The breeder who is going to show us uses banamine and oweze herbal formula.
 Is emla cream safe to put on as well?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 11, 2016)

We no longer use anything burn and done and they hop around like nothing ever happened.

I do L/R ice L/R ice... time is different with all the goats... Keep tip flush but rotate clockwise light pressure... 
One goat may do ok with so many seconds yet another goat not.
practice on a board. 

SHAVE the area... it is easier to see when you are getting a good burn and it won't smoke and smell like it does with hair! UGH

People talk about copper but that copper can be their and you haven't really burned deep enough. You do not want white.

Usually vets do get scurs more than other because they are doing them when people bring them in-which is usually to late.
The other factor is many vets won't do Nigerians... they look at them and are afraid they will kill them because they are so tiny. Vets that work with a lot of standards will often tell the client to use a Nigie breeder if they can.

It could be 5/5 5/5 or 5/5/ 8/8 or 8/8/ 8/8 

A few vets I know do a 15 second burn   
Of course that is on standards... 
Um NO I won't do that and definitely not on a Nigie.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Okay, just clarifying- the 30x 1/2 inch tip is okay for all size goat disbuddings, right?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

That is a good all around. 
What breeds of goats do you have again?


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> That is a good all around.
> What breeds of goats do you have again?



Mostly Nigerian Dwarfs, a couple Nubian Dwarf mixes, 3 Saanens and we are buying more Saanens this winter.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Nubian Dwarf mixes



Are these Nubian mixes and dwarf mixes or are you talking about Miniature Nubians? Miniature Nubians are a breed... don't call them mixes. 
Unless they are crappy animals then they are just mixes. 


You should do fine with the 1/2" if you do the bucks timely!



Green Acres Farm said:


> Saanens



You may want to do 5/8 ... Saanen bucks will be iffy. 

But then again every buck on our farm that *was done by someone else* has scurs. EVERY buck. 

I don't think I'm that good... I think I'm just lucky. 
Actually I know the mini alpine I did will have scurs... He was born with pointed nubs and I needed to do him at 3 days. I won't burn before then no matter what... but I had a family medical crisis happening in March and I got to him and the others when I could... so I was very late.

Bucks are so difficult


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Are these Nubian mixes and dwarf mixes or are you talking about Miniature Nubians? Miniature Nubians are a breed... don't call them mixes.
> Unless they are crappy animals then they are just mixes.



Yep, they are mixes. Not sure how much of a ratio of a Nubian to a Nigerian Dwarf they are and those aren't the only breeds mixed in. We'll see how their udders turn out. If they are bad, they go.

And, yes our Saanen buck has awful scurs He came from a very reputable and experienced breeder, but...


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

LOL

Yeah, honestly it has nothing to do with whether a breeder is good, or vet is good...

Vets get scurs just as often as breeders on bucks.

The base of the bud is huge.


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## NH homesteader (Aug 12, 2016)

This has been helpful since I just got a buckling with serious scurs! Won't be so mad at the vet now!


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Speaking of Nubian mixes, how common now is G6S? Isn't testing like $40-50 plus shipping? I mean if these were purebred, registered, quality breeding/ milking goats, that would definitely be a must to get done, but mixes?  
Do you think I should test, just sell them now, or hope for the best?


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 12, 2016)

I think many do not understand until they experience breeding, kidding, and disbudding for themselves. It's easy to be mad at other breeders or vets, but scurs happen. Once you are the one holding the iron your mindset changes a bit. 

I always say that I'd rather scurs over a dead goat  Most vets would rather that too. 
I know of a vet that always did a great job, until he had several kids die… After that he had lots of goats with scurs, but the goats lived. 

Being a highly reputable breeder doesn't have much to do when it comes to scurs. I've seen bucks with huge scurs come from reputable breeders. Doesn't make them a bad breeder. 

You also need to remember that if the herd is large some are burning 30-40 kids at a time. It would be nearly impossible to feel each kid daily.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

More and more people are testing and it is best to do so if you are breeding them and selling kids.
Mine are negative by parentage but I will probably test and have results handy. I think once on your farm then you should test and keep those records, regardless of G6S or CAE, CL, Johnes.

@NH homesteader  glad this gives you a little comfort.
WE ALL HATE SCURS! Sadly it is life with disbudded goats- especially bucks.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

I think selling is the best option, then. I don't think my parents will want to spend $100+ on testing mutt goats...

Okay, really off subject- I got McMasters slides maybe 3 weeks ago and have been trying to figure it all out. 
I'm pretty sure I am getting it ready right, and I can see a few eggs under the microscope, but when I was looking at my reference sheet and my veterinary parasitology book, I realized like 5-6 different kinds look exactly the same to me. Also, I'm not seeing coccidia (I think).
Aren't you supposed to count only one kind of egg to get your EPG? 
How high a power are you supposed to get down to? I can't focus on the highest power.
 Are you supposed to see both blue lines on either side while you count, or go like from left to right making your way up till you get to the top of your first column? 

This is the microscope I got:

https://www.amazon.com/AmScope-M150...0524217?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1471059402&sr=1-1


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I think selling is the best option, then. I don't think my parents will want to spend $100+ on testing mutt goats...
> 
> Okay, really off subject- I got McMasters slides maybe 3 weeks ago and have been trying to figure it all out.
> I'm pretty sure I am getting it ready right, and I can see a few eggs under the microscope, but when I was looking at my reference sheet and my veterinary parasitology book, I realized like 5-6 different kinds look exactly the same to me. Also, I'm not seeing coccidia (I think).
> ...


Maybe I should have posted this on a different thread...


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

It appears you do not have a mechanical stage on your scope.
You must have a mechanical stage.

You need it at 100x (10x eyepiece, 10x lens)
you really shouldn't "see" the lines... the view should be exactly between the lines.

Many eggs look alike, you identify by size for some.
EPG counts are specifically for barberpole.
Coccidia are very small, most beginners cannot find them unless someone skilled or experienced show them.

Same with tape - there are several kinds and most people have no idea.

It will get easier. To encourage you- by the time the kids were 11-12 years old they could read a slide. Trust me, it is with practice you get better. That is why it is important to have your vet run them too until you learn and are confident. 

You need to adjust the table to use the highest power.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

What do you mean by mechanical stage?


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

Mechanical stage locks slide into place and provides precise slide manipulation along the X- and Y-axes, and nested coarse and fine focus knobs speed focusing
https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-P...llumination/dp/B00BEK1WZW#feature-bullets-btf

The Chalix (from vetslides) are too large for this scope and you wont be able to read the whole thing... these may work
http://fecsource.com/

Do you have a picture of yours?


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Mechanical stage locks slide into place and provides precise slide manipulation along the X- and Y-axes, and nested coarse and fine focus knobs speed focusing
> https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-P...llumination/dp/B00BEK1WZW#feature-bullets-btf
> 
> The Chalix (from vetslides) are too large for this scope and you wont be able to read the whole thing... these may work
> ...



I think I know what you mean- I just move the slide with my finger, it works okay. I posted the link to the scope I got a few messages back.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Yes, I got the same slides from fecsource.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 12, 2016)

Yeah that isn't going to work to good, moving it around.
You really need the mechanical stage.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Can I buy that separately, because I can't take the microscope back.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Would this work?

http://www.hometrainingtools.com/mechanical-stage


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 12, 2016)

Or this?

http://www.amscope.com/graduated-microscope-mechanical-stage.html


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## Southern by choice (Aug 13, 2016)

It doesn't say it will fit the 150... isn't that what you have?
Although that is so cool! I had no idea that they sell those!


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## babsbag (Aug 13, 2016)

When my bucks get disbudded I can usually count on them having to be done 3 times about 2-3 weeks apart to get all the scurs. That usually does it.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 13, 2016)

babsbag said:


> When my bucks get disbudded I can usually count on them having to be done 3 times about 2-3 weeks apart to get all the scurs. That usually does it.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 13, 2016)

babsbag said:


> When my bucks get disbudded I can usually count on them having to be done 3 times about 2-3 weeks apart to get all the scurs. That usually does it.


That's awful!


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## babsbag (Aug 13, 2016)

But it is better than scurs if they are staying in my herd. Nothing better than a dead goat in the fence because his scurs got stuck and he won't back out. On a hot day...104°+...dead can happen.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 13, 2016)

When my Saanen buck gets scurs, they are not very hard, and seem hollow. They fall off every couple months, which I'm kinda glad, so I don't have to trim them. Do you think if we burned the base when they fall off, they would stop growing?

I have seen bucks, though with scurs that might as well be full out horns in weird shapes.


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## Southern by choice (Aug 13, 2016)

We bought a buck that when the original owner bought him from the breeder he had scurs... she had a full removal done... he still ended up having a little growth but not too bad.


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## babsbag (Aug 13, 2016)

I don't know if burning would do any good or not. I usually go and have a removal done, I need to do one this winter. I try to be more diligent on the bucks but my mini Alpine buckling has scurs and he was burned twice. Darn.


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## Green Acres Farm (Aug 13, 2016)

I'll let y'all know how it turns out if we ever decide to do it.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 15, 2016)

I forgot to add my comments.

We clip the head.  They will yell as much for the clipping as the burning.

We burn each bud 6 seconds.  I hold the goat, Maurine applies the iron.  I do a slow count, one thousand one, one thousand two.  You need to apply some pressure on the head with the iron also, helps to keep it from sliding.  We burn each bud for 6 seconds and then apply and ice pack.  We make sure the head is cooled back off.

We then burn each bud an additional 6 seconds.

We apply the ice again.

Then we spray on some burn spray.  Shield their eyes and be careful none runs into their eyes.

We use a buck tip for our bucks.  It is larger and tear dropped shape.  It burns a larger area and is supposed to keep you from having to do a figure 8 with the round tip.  I think it's actually less heat on the brain.
We have definitely had less scurs, and/or smaller scurs.


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## Hens and Roos (Aug 15, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> I forgot to add my comments.
> 
> We clip the head.  They will yell as much for the clipping as the burning.
> 
> ...



we had problems this year with disbudding and now have scurs growing back


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## babsbag (Aug 15, 2016)

I have some awesome friends that do mine and in 7 years and over 100 kids I have had 1 doeling with scurs...we won't discuss the bucks.   It is my job to check them and have them re-burned but I don't do a very good job on that. Fortunately most are pets and wethering slows the horn growth quite a bit. 

My friends all have years and years and years of experience; I am very blessed.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 15, 2016)

We had some issues with scurs on some of the first does with did.
But, we've got the does down pretty good now.
I don't think anyone will ever say they have 100% no scurs with bucks.


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## Hens and Roos (Aug 15, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I have some awesome friends that do mine and in 7 years and over 100 kids I have had 1 doeling with scurs...we won't discuss the bucks.   It is my job to check them and have them re-burned but I don't do a very good job on that. Fortunately most are pets and wethering slows the horn growth quite a bit.
> 
> My friends all have years and years and years of experience; I am very blessed.



that's great, we were kind of rushed this year will all going on  and didn't catch it....for us it gets expensive to bring the vet out to do....


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