# HaloRabbits- Rabbit Journal



## HaloRabbits (Apr 17, 2017)

Decided to make a journal! 

My name is Angel  and I recently (as in December 2016) got into rabbits. I also have experience breeding chickens, fish and dogs. My current pets include dogs, a horse, a turtle, and a hedgehog. I am not considering the Rabbits pets because well they are meat rabbits. We will also be selling some for what ever purpose the buyer wants... be it meat, pet or show. All of our rabbits are New Zealands and are pedigreed and we aim to keep this going in the event a buyer wants to register or show. 

I study biology and am fascinated by genetics, and hope to genotype all of my breeders but it is proving harder than originally imagined because my doe turns out to be hiding at least one gene, possibly two (and that is just what I have found out since December). 

My rabbit herd currently consists of:
2 Breeders- a phenotypically black doe (I think she is a self chin), and a broken red buck
4 up and coming breeders- 2 solid "black" and 2 broken "black" (probably self chins like their mom), 3 are does and 1 of the solids is a buck. [they come from my doe but a different buck is their sire]

I have a 4 week old litter that I am likely going to keep a doeling from. Because I know she is e_ w_, I can breed her with my broken red buck and hopefully get a red doe. 



 
   

Also created a website for potential buyers to learn a little about our rabbits and rabbitry as well:
http://halorabbits.weebly.com/


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## Pastor Dave (Apr 17, 2017)

Sounds good.
I have a pair of pedigreed NZW'S for similar reasons. My other purebred NZW and some type if Lop Charlie buck are my other breeders. 4 does and 2 bucks.

So far this past month, I have sold a breeding pair of NZW'S that had same sire and different dams. They didn't care abt pedigrees. My Charlie throws some pretty broken kits that someone wanted as a pet. Again, no care abt pedigrees, just cute.

It is still a good idea to advertise and have the pedigreed breeders, but no one yet had wanted one of mine for 4-H or to show.


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## 16029 (Apr 17, 2017)

Hello,I have a pure white German Shepherd named Missy. We have a black cat, 2 guinea pigs, and a hamster that has 3 little babies. They are 2 weeks old. I have a few rabbits. I first started raising rabbits in the beginning of 2014. I started with Californians,NZW,mini lops, mini rex and lion heads.I had gotten some lion heads from the auction and must have picked up snuffels there. I ended up starting over completely. A month after I got rid of all the rabbits and disinfected the whole rabbit area I started getting rabbits again. I decided while I was starting over I might as well start over with pedigreed rabbits. I got a trio of Netherland Dwarfs to start with. 

Currently I have 1 ND doe. (I took the buck and one of the does to the auction Friday. The buck is the nastiest rabbit I have ever owned and so is the doe. She had 2 litters while I had her. Both times she had 1 baby and ate it. I decided they both have to go
 My other doe is the sweetest bunny there is.)I have 2 Holland lops,5 lionheads,2 mini lops and 5 mini rex. I have a trio of Florida whites and a trio of NZW to pick up within the next month. Everything but the mini lops,lionheads and NZW have complete pedigrees. I would like to start breeding mini lionlops.I don't know why buy I can't stick to one breed of rabbits. 
Within the last 9 days I had 5 new litters born. 2 mini rex 1 mini lop 1 dutch and 1 Holland lop.Today I fostered 2 of the Holland lops in with the Dutch litter. Onyx the Holland lop doe had 4 babies. 2 were peanuts. I put the 2 big ones in with my dutch doe who had 3 babies. They are closer to their size. Maybe the 2 little ones will have a better chance without the 2 others trampling them down.


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## 16029 (Apr 17, 2017)

This is a picture of one out of a litter of 4 mini rex. They all are black. This is a litter of 4 mini rex. 3 broken and one solid. They are so chunky and sweet. Totally my favorite. There are 5 of these mini lops. Mom is tri color. Dad is BEW. I think there might be one with blue eyes here. It is a tiny orange spot on its back and ear.


 Litter of 4 living Holland lops. They all are black. I think I have plenty of black rabbits now.
  My poor little dutch doe sure pulled enough fur.She was bred to a black buck. Her sister who missed her litter has a bit of white on her ear like the little one in the middle. That must be where the baby gets it from.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 17, 2017)

@Pastor Dave I sold one about a week ago and they asked for the pedigree. I just have them on hand just in case, I am by no means writing up one for each kit I intend to sell. 

@Hatties Hoppers One of my dogs looks like a white shepherd. She is 1/2 shepherd and 1/2 husky. Awe you have so many babies! So cute


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## 16029 (Apr 17, 2017)

This is my little girl. She is 3 years old.Totally the sweetest dog.


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## 16029 (Apr 17, 2017)

@HaloRabbits how do you genotype your rabbits?


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## Pastor Dave (Apr 17, 2017)

I am interested why the moderator needed to edit your earlier reply post, @Hatties Hoppers. And, that is a bunch of bunnies.
The white shepherds are pretty. I used to have a breeding psir of black shepherds.

The white shepherd and husky mix is pretty @HaloRabbits


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## 16029 (Apr 18, 2017)

@Pastor Dave I am not sure why.  I am new to this.
I really like German Shepherds. I would like a real color German Shepherd though.  But I like the white and the black ones. What did yours weigh?Mine is 50 pounds. She is very small.  

The white shepherd and husky sounds cute.


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## Pastor Dave (Apr 18, 2017)

I had mine in the mid 90's in a different chapter of my life to be sure. My ex-wife and I bred the black German Shepherd pair, and made decent money then with pedigreed puppies selling for $250. They went fast too. We sold them with a goodie bag, first round shots, and a referral to our veterinarian if they should choose to use him. 

The female was small and weighed in around 65 lbs. She was from a different breeder entirely than the male but born in the same week. He was abt 90-95 lbs at two years old. He looked like a wolf, beautiful dog. They both had come out of litters of 10 and first litter together had 10. Neither had gotten full mass they would have gotten by around 3 yrs old when we divorced. I never got to see them again, as they stayed with her on the large property we had then.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 18, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> @HaloRabbits how do you genotype your rabbits?


For Color genetics each combination of genes yeilds a specific phenotype. Phenotype is what you see. For example a REW has "cc" for sure, but that is all you can be sure of by just looking at the rabbits. Sometimes the pedigree can give you more information. For example my does mother was Blue, which means I know for sure she was "dd", so I know my doe would have at least one copy of "d", since she isn't a dilute I actually know she is "Dd". The more information you have on the parents the easier it is, but since I am just starting it is proving a little difficult. I am going to continue though, and the more breedings I do, I will have a better idea.

BTW my Huksy/Shepherd mix is ~50 pounds too.


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## 16029 (Apr 19, 2017)

@HaloRabbits   I bred a REW mini Rex doe to a broken black buck. I got 1 solid black and 3 broken blacks. What would I look for on their pedigrees?These were the 2 rabbits that were bred. What does the doe carry. Can u tell what the babies carry by looking at the pedigree?


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## Bunnylady (Apr 19, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> @HaloRabbits   I bred a REW mini Rex doe to a broken black buck. I got 1 solid black and 3 broken blacks. What would I look for on their pedigrees?These were the 2 rabbits that were bred. What does the doe carry. Can u tell what the babies carry by looking at the pedigree?
> View attachment 31304 View attachment 31305



The buck's pedigree doesn't give you anything that you can't see in the babies - that they have the genes for black or broken black. On the doe's side, the only thing you don't already know just by looking at them is that they might possibly carry the genes for dilute (d), and tort (e), but those are only possibilities, not guaranteed. The fact that their mother is an REW means that they carry (c); her blue parent means that she carries dilute (d), but you can't be sure she passed it on.


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## 16029 (Apr 19, 2017)

Sorry, I am a bit confused.


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## Bunnylady (Apr 19, 2017)

Black is aaB_C_D_E_enen; broken black is aaB_C_D_E_Enen. Since everything on the buck's pedigree is either black or broken black, you don't know if anybody might be carrying anything else (like dilute, or chocolate, or some other recessive gene) that would fill in any of those blank spaces.

The doe is a REW, that's ____cc________, but her parents were a black and a blue, which are both self colors, so you know she's got two self genes in the A series (aa), since  self is the only gene either of her parents have to give. With a black and a blue parent, it's pretty likely that the doe inherited at least one gene for black (B), but since black is dominant, even though there aren't any chocolate colors on the pedigree, you can't be_ absolutely_ sure that nobody is carrying chocolate (b), so you have to leave it at B_. Blue is the dilute of black, and dilute (d) is recessive to full color. You know the doe_ had_ to get a copy of dilute from her mother; but her father is black, so you don't know whether he might carry dilute. So you know for sure that your REW doe has at least one copy of dilute. The doe has tort on her father's side of the family; tort is ee. Her father isn't a tort, but_ his_ father was, so he might have passed an e on to the doe. So, looking at the pedigree, you know the doe is aa, probably B_, cc, d_, can't be sure about the E series but there's a possibility of e_, neither parent is a broken so solid  (enen).

A lot of people will pencil in a note on the pedigree about the known genetics of the rabbit. This can help you know which crosses to do if you are looking to produce/improve a particular color, or which crosses to avoid. For example, I had a REW Holland Lop doe whose sire was a broken tort. When bred to a solid buck, she produced broken kits, so I knew she had gotten the broken gene from her father. You couldn't see it, of course, since she was white anyway, but because I knew it was there, I avoided the possibility of creating Charlies by never breeding her to a broken buck. Some things may not show up on the pedigree - offspring, siblings - that can give you a clue as to something that may be lurking that you don't see. For example, on your buck's pedigree, everything there is a black or broken black, but they might all have siblings that were chocolates or some other recessive color that could crop up in later breedings, but there is nothing in the direct line of descent to tell you where it came from.

If I were pencilling in a note about your REW doe's genetics, it would read: aaB_cc_d_(e?)enen.


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## 16029 (Apr 20, 2017)

So then how do you show it? Like do you write it on the pedigree? Or is it to just let you know what colors the babies could possibly be?


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## Bunnylady (Apr 20, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> So then how do you show it? Like do you write it on the pedigree? Or is it to just let you know what colors the babies could possibly be?



See edited post, above.^^


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## 16029 (Apr 20, 2017)

thanks, that is very interesting. Sorry it takes me a long time to catch on.


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## promiseacres (Apr 20, 2017)

https://htch.us/p/4yh

hopefully this link works, but my pedigrees show a notes section. Not only do I list their known genotype, but also their ear stats since that's important to know for my breed.
This doe I know most of her genotype due to offspring and actually she probably EE (no tort) as she's had 12 kits with a buck that carries tort and no torts.  It makes me happy to know their genotypes. Though always can be suprises.


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## 16029 (Apr 20, 2017)

yep, it works, thanks


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 20, 2017)

@Hatties Hoppers I have all the colors listed on the pedigree but no genotypes yet. I currently have a file on the computer where I have all of their genotypes listed. The more breedings I do, the more info I will know. For example I do not know if my doe or buck carry chocolate "b", but if a chocolate baby pops up then I will change B_ to Bb.

I breed for meat, so if I get unshowable/unapproved colors in the midst of my experimentation with colors/genetics it isn't a big deal. I am going to be working to create 2 color lines, reds and blacks. And then I will also have brokens of each color. It is a work in progress as I only got my first rabbits in December, but I am working towards my goal as we speak.

I was going to phase out the self-chins I got from my first breeding but pet-buyers really liked their look. So I may keep a line of them going.


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## 16029 (Apr 20, 2017)

If you get a chocolate baby how do you know it doesn't come from the buck?


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## promiseacres (Apr 20, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> If you get a chocolate baby how do you know it doesn't come from the buck?


Both would need to carry chocolate, Bb     As a chocolate is bb so either might carry but can be unknown.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 21, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> If you get a chocolate baby how do you know it doesn't come from the buck?



A chocolate rabbit is "bb" so that means both parents have given a "b" to the kit. I know my doe is B_ so I could then change it to Bb. My buck on the other hand is listed _ _ because he is red and comes from a long line of reds; I can't be sure of anything at this moment. He has only been bred once and all kits were black, but since black is dominant that really does not tell me anything since my doe is black. So if I get a chocolate I would change him to b_. 

Test breedings are great if you can do it, the results are seen much faster. For example, if I had a chocolate doe and I bred him with her multiple times and got only chocolates I would know he was "bb", if I got a mix of chocoloates and blacks I would know he was "Bb" but if I got only blacks I would know he was "BB".


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## 16029 (Apr 21, 2017)

thanks, that helps make more sense.


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## 16029 (May 3, 2017)

Bunnylady said:


> Black is aaB_C_D_E_enen; broken black is aaB_C_D_E_Enen. Since everything on the buck's pedigree is either black or broken black, you don't know if anybody might be carrying anything else (like dilute, or chocolate, or some other recessive gene) that would fill in any of those blank spaces.
> 
> The doe is a REW, that's ____cc________, but her parents were a black and a blue, which are both self colors, so you know she's got two self genes in the A series (aa), since  self is the only gene either of her parents have to give. With a black and a blue parent, it's pretty likely that the doe inherited at least one gene for black (B), but since black is dominant, even though there aren't any chocolate colors on the pedigree, you can't be_ absolutely_ sure that nobody is carrying chocolate (b), so you have to leave it at B_. Blue is the dilute of black, and dilute (d) is recessive to full color. You know the doe_ had_ to get a copy of dilute from her mother; but her father is black, so you don't know whether he might carry dilute. So you know for sure that your REW doe has at least one copy of dilute. The doe has tort on her father's side of the family; tort is ee. Her father isn't a tort, but_ his_ father was, so he might have passed an e on to the doe. So, looking at the pedigree, you know the doe is aa, probably B_, cc, d_, can't be sure about the E series but there's a possibility of e_, neither parent is a broken so solid  (enen).
> 
> ...



@Bunnylady 
sorry I didn't post this sooner. The baby bunnies colors came out . I had thought there was 1 solid black and 3 broken black. There are actually 1 blue, 1 broken blue and 2 broken blacks. What geno type does the doe carry?


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## Bunnylady (May 3, 2017)

Bunnylady said:


> aaB_cc_d_(e?)enen.





Hatties Hoppers said:


> What geno type does the doe carry?



The presence of blue kits in the litter doesn't change anything we know about the doe; we already knew she had a dilution gene because she has a dilute (blue) parent. Dilute is recessive; for a baby to be born a dilute color, it has to inherit the dilution gene from both parents. Since there are dilute babies in the litter, we know that your buck has to have a copy of the dilution gene, too. Previously, we knew that your broken black buck was aaB_C_D_E_Enen, now we know he is aaB_C_DdE_Enen.


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## 16029 (May 3, 2017)

Is dilute blue?  So if a parent is one color does that mean the babies carry that color?


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## Bunnylady (May 3, 2017)

A rabbit has the potential to produce two pigments, pheomelanin (yellow/red) and eumelanin (black/brown). All rabbit colors are created with only these two pigments. These pigments are found in the form of granules within the hair shaft. There are a bunch of genes that determine how much of each color are found in the hairs, where within the hair they are found, and where on the rabbit these colors appear. The dilution gene reduces the total number of granules of both types in the hair, and causes them to clump together, letting more light through and so producing a lighter color. Dilute modifies what the other genes code for - black becomes blue, chocolate becomes lilac, chestnut becomes opal, chinchilla becomes squirrel, sable becomes smoke pearl, etc.

The D series is where dilution happens. There are two possibilities in the D series, the full color version (D) and the dilution gene (d). Since dilute is recessive, a rabbit had to inherit it from both parents for you to be able to see it.


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## 16029 (May 3, 2017)

Ok.I am a bit confused.


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## HaloRabbits (May 3, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> Ok.I am a bit confused.



There are a number of great websites that detail rabbit color genetics if you are interested I can post a link for you. In addition to that I may suggest looking up punnet squares which could help give you a more simplistic view of genetics, and you can look at each gene separately in an effort to understand. Genetics is amazing, but it can be a quite frustrating and difficult if you do not have the basics down before diving into it.


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## Bunnylady (May 3, 2017)

Once you learn what each gene does and how to recognize it, it's really not that bad, though it can seem like a foreign language until you get it all sorted in your mind.


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## 16029 (May 5, 2017)

@HaloRabbits  thanks that would be nice.


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## HaloRabbits (May 6, 2017)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> @HaloRabbits  thanks that would be nice.



This site will show you some basic genetics, using only one gene at a time:
https://www.hobart.k12.in.us/jkousen/Biology/psquare.htm

This site breaks down color genetics pretty well. There are other sites but this is a good place to start:
http://www.raising-rabbits.com/rabbit-coat-color-genetics.html


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## HaloRabbits (May 6, 2017)

Tried to rebreed our Tres, but she would not lift properly for the buck. The buck never 'fell off' so I am not confident he was successful in getting her bred. We will try again in a few hours and fingers crossed things will go better.


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## 16029 (May 10, 2017)

@HaloRabbits 
thanks for the links. I'll look at them. Sorry I didn't see it sooner.   
Did you get your rabbit bred?
I have a Dutch that missed her first litter. I bred her again. I can feel babies so I know she will have them this time. She is one big grump though.


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## HaloRabbits (May 11, 2017)

The second time I lifted her a bit when we first put her in  and the buck had two fall offs before we took her out so  now it is a waiting game. I will try palpating her in a few days. We also weigh her at palpitation each time and usually has increased weight that is noticeable even when we can't feel the babies.  

Our weanlings are growing like weeds! The average weight at 6 weeks was over 3 1/2 pounds! Her first batch didn't have an average weight of 3 1/2 pounds until 7-8 weeks. We might keep one solid doe from that batch.


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## 16029 (May 12, 2017)

@HaloRabbits 
great. I hope she has babies. Waiting is the worst time. Between waiting for the babies to be born and for their eyes to open.


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## HaloRabbits (May 14, 2017)

We tried palpating her today no luck, I never have luck. We weighed her and she has gained an ounce (it has been 8 days). Usually we weigh at 14 days, last time she gained 2 and 1/4 ounces. I think I will weigh her at two weeks just to check and see how she is progressing. 

Here are some photos of the almost 8 week kits.
 
There is one doe that has weird ears. I don't know what is up with them, should I cull her because of them?Or not worry about that because they are meat rabbits?


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## 16029 (May 15, 2017)

@HaloRabbits  did your black doe catch her head in between something. I had a rabbit that got its head stuck in a hole and broke it's ears.
What kind of rabbits are they? They are cute. 
It took me a long time to learn how to palpate a rabbit. A friend showed me how to but it was weeks later that I could actually do it. I have a lion head I bred 6th of this month. I felt at least two babies.


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## HaloRabbits (May 17, 2017)

No, there is nothing for her to catch her head on. They aren't broken, sometimes she holds them right it is so strange lol. 
I read one person said that their rabbit could hold them up or down like they just had extra control over them or something. Then I read that it is possible that maybe the nerves could be weakened. 

They are New Zealand rabbits. Mother and father both have fine ears. These are the parents.


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## Bunnylady (May 17, 2017)

Ears that fall on non-lop breeds aren't uncommon, particularly in hot areas. People who  work with breeds that are supposed to have largish ears carried in a V shape deal with this all the time. I have had more trouble with this on my Harlequins, and I know English Angora breeders who will tape the ears of their young rabbits together to try to keep them from going down. Rumor has it that ears that grow during hot weather are longer and thinner than those that are grown during the cold months; whether that has been documented or whether that's just a "hutch myth," I have no idea. Rabbits lose a lot of heat through their ears, so making bigger radiators if they seem to be necessary does make a certain amount of sense. It certainly _seems _that juniors growing up during hot weather have bigger ears than their cold-weather counterparts, but I have never actually measured them to see.

As far as the health, stamina, etc, of a meat rabbit, I would not worry about fallen ears_* at all*_. The ligaments of the ears can get loosened/stretched any number of ways, even by others in the litter climbing on top of each other. A heat-stressed rabbit will sit with its ears as far apart as they can go, you may even see the tips of the ears curling over from the weight and possibly dehydration. Once the ligaments lose the ability to hold the ear up, it hardy ever comes back fully, but that doesn't mean that there is anything "weak" about the rabbit at all.

The only time that lopping ears on a non-lop breed are an issue is on a show table, where it's a DQ.


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## HaloRabbits (May 17, 2017)

That is great to hear because other than her ears, she has a lot of what I want to keep in our heard and we wanted to keep one doe. Most of this litter is broken but I already have 3 broken breeders and do not want any more. Ill check her weight and teeth before deciding for sure. We planned to dispatch at 9-10 weeks so I will just wait until then.


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## LocoYokel (May 30, 2017)

Great journal!  
Did Tres get pregnant? Impatiently waiting for baby pics over here... can't wait to see what colors they may be.


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## HaloRabbits (May 31, 2017)

We weighed Tres again this past weekend, she has gained a lot of weight and belly feels much tighter than before. She is due on Tuesday the 6th! 

One of the boys from her last litter is a gold tipped black steel, OMG he is so cute! I will add pics this weekend when I can get out to take pictures. I wish he was a doe, no more room for bucks at the moment. My dad really likes the steel and would love more of that color, but we would have to build more cages. Like ASAP. 

And now the breeder I got my starter rabbits from has texted me asking if I want some blues as she will be coming to town this week (she is located in WV and I am in NC). What to do? haha


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## LocoYokel (Jun 1, 2017)

Yay Tres! I would love to see a pic of the gold-tipped boy.  I had a blue from Tilda's first litter, this litter also has one but this time it had gold tips with the blue eyes.  Am I wrong thinking that a lilac? I am very uneducated when it comes to rabbit colors but doesn't that mean both the doe and buck must carry the dilute gene as it is recessive? 
I digress, hey, if dad likes the steel and has a hammer... 
Rabbit Math!


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## Bunnylady (Jun 1, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> Yay Tres! I would love to see a pic of the gold-tipped boy.  I had a blue from Tilda's first litter, this litter also has one but this time it had gold tips with the blue eyes.  Am I wrong thinking that a lilac? I am very uneducated when it comes to rabbit colors but doesn't that mean both the doe and buck must carry the dilute gene as it is recessive?
> I digress, hey, if dad likes the steel and has a hammer...
> Rabbit Math!



You are correct in thinking that a blue (or any dilute color) in a litter means that both parents carry the dilution gene. But if your rabbit has any color other than blue-gray showing in its fur, it's not a blue. Gold tips could mean it's a blue steel. Lilac is the dilute form of chocolate; it's an all over sort of pinkish, dove-gray color.

But you ain't kiddin' on the rabbit math!


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 1, 2017)

I caved and we are getting a blue doe from her Friday! We will build a couple new cages on Saturday. She will hopefully be fine with our grow outs for that one night. They are all the same age ~9 weeks.


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 5, 2017)

We named the Blue doe *Aoki. *She is super sweet and all the babies got along great. Some of them went to freezer camp, well all except Aoki and the doe from that litter that we decided to keep. 

Pictured are the gold tipped black steel buckling ( I really wanted to keep him but no more room for bucks) and the new doe Aoki.


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 9, 2017)

Having trouble breeding our young does, will post a question on this. But in case one of you can help: 

We have some young does ~5 months old. We tried to breed one two days ago and she wouldn't lift. So the next day we tried again, same thing. So we tried another doe that is the same age as her and she didn't lift either. Multiple sources I read said we could breed at this age, so I am unsure what the issue may be. Our first doe we got last year was already bred when we got her, so this is my first time dealing with young/unproven/virgin does. What can I do?


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## 16029 (Jun 10, 2017)

@HaloRabbits 
I give my rabbits raw apple cider vinegar in their water. There are a lot of benifets in doing that. It is also supposed to make the does willing to breed. U have to have them on the vinegar for a while though.


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## LocoYokel (Jun 11, 2017)

Hi Halo! Good luck on getting your young does bred.
Hey, did Tres kindle?  I thought of her when I went out to palpate my Suki... couldn't feel much (my lack of experience, no fault on the doe's end, LoL) but she is heavier and feels "fuller" back there in her 'kit carrier'.  


Hatties Hoppers said:


> I give my rabbits raw apple cider vinegar in their water. There are a lot of benefits in doing that.


I just started using ACV in my waterers, as much for the algae control as for the health benefits.  @Hatties Hoppers do you use the 3month on/3month off method or year round?  I have read conflicting arguments on both and would love some info from an actual user!


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 11, 2017)

@Hatties Hoppers Should they continue on it while pregnant and while the kits are with them?

@LocoYokel I am horrid at palpating haha, I think I will just not try anymore. I do love to feel there tummies around days 28-31 cause you can feel the kits moving about. I don't lift them, just pet them in the cage. Yes, Tres kindled Tuesday. I plan to get some nice pics once their hair grows a little more (but before their eyes open). 

I placed one of my young brokens with Bonzai today and she lifted once, he fell off. Then there was one possible/almost fall off. So hopefully she got bred. So they are both broken, and I don't want to create charlies but I wanted to put her with an experienced buck, and my solid isn't proven. I didn't want to breed two unprovens together, because if it didn't take I wouldn't know whose fault it was. Anyways, Malu (the little doe) will be due July 12th if she took.


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## LocoYokel (Jun 12, 2017)

Tres!

I pet my does daily but I really need to build up to  a more thorough "petting":  Start petting the lower sides/belly/leg areas gradually.  ...this should help with the palpating?  I think my does can sense that I am unsure about what I am doing so they get all fidgety!


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## 16029 (Jun 12, 2017)

@LocoYokel , @HaloRabbits  I give ACV to my rabbit all year. There are many benefits. 
Rabbits like the taste so they drink more water which helps keep them hydrated. (especially this time of the year). 
It is great for rabbits at any life stage. Even for pregnant rabbits.
ACV helps reduce the ammonia smell from the rabbits urine. 
Boosts immune system, it is a natural probiotic.
Helps to reduce infections. 
It can clear up any skin infectiona or weepy eyes.
It helps increase the nutrient absorption capabilites. 
Boosts fertility rates and may result in more female kits in a litter.
Makes does more willing to breed.
Makes rabbits unattractive to fleas and mites by making the rabbit "smell" off, making it a great repellant. 
Extensive historical use and veterinary studies indicate that ACV added to feed or water can cure a mastitis infection and reduce the transmission rates of the bacteria.

Hope it helps!


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 12, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> Start petting the lower sides/belly/leg areas gradually.  ...this should help with the palpating?  I think my does can sense that I am unsure about what I am doing so they get all fidgety!



Oh she is fine being lifted and palpated, I just do not know what I am feeling, and am scared I'll hurt the embryos lol


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 12, 2017)

@Hatties Hoppers WOW that is great info! I will start that soon. Can it be regular store brand ACV or should it be the unpasteurized kind with the 'mother'. 

Also what ACV:Water ratio do you recommend?


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## 16029 (Jun 13, 2017)

@HaloRabbits I use raw apple cider vinegar.  
I just put a little splash of ACV in a gallon of water. U can give them a tablespoon or 2. Start slow so they get used to it.


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## LocoYokel (Jun 14, 2017)

Yeah, the kind with the "Mother" in it.  I actually had the stuff in my cupboard for myself before I learned the benefits work for the bunnies and chickens as well.  They LOVE the stuff, the only drawback I can find is I have to fill waterers more often.  Doesn't hurt my feelings at all what with summer coming on...
I started with a teaspoon per gallon for the first few days, they liked it enuff I was up to the tablespoon per gallon by the end of the week.
(I do suggest doing a bit of research, like Google, before giving it to other types of critters. Learned it will give my Chinchilla diarrhea if used daily, although it can be used for some medical issues on chins.)


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 15, 2017)

I also have it for myself haha. I occasionally put it in my horses water as well. He loves it <3


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 2, 2017)

*Pregnancy without fall off?
*
As I was mentioning before, I was having trouble getting my young maiden does to lift for my buck Bonzai. I eventually did get one to lift (Malu) and she is due to kindle in 10 days. I am horrible at palpating and so I always just weigh my does. Malu has gained a little over half a pound since the breed date (3 weeks ago), but I couldn't feel anything in there . With her mom I always feel her when I put the nest box in and can feel the babies, so i guess I will check back with Malu next week.

Now, on to *the real question* of my post: One of my other does that I tried to breed before (Orian) was weighed today. I always weigh before breeding. She has gained 3/4 of a pound since last weigh in which was about 3 weeks ago when I tried to breed her the first time! The buck never got a fall off so I figured she was not bred. But I feel like that is a lot of weight gain? Could she have gotten pregnant without a fall off, or did she just hit a growth spurt? She is a junior doe, so she is still maturing. I will check her again next week when I put the box in with Malu just in case, but I don't know what to think. I didn't feel babies in her either. I continued and put her in with the buck as planned and he did get two fall offs. I keep good records and I know I didn't mix them up even though they pretty similar lol.


 

Also, I will add pics of the 4 week old babies from Tres either tonight or tomorrow!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 2, 2017)

Tres' latest litter (Litter 3)

Photos at 1 Day, 2 weeks and 3 weeks 5 days!


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## LocoYokel (Jul 3, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> Tres' latest little (Litter 3)


Very pretty kits! Look like lil' plush rabbits in the store!


HaloRabbits said:


> Could she have gotten pregnant without a fall off, or did she just hit a growth spurt? She is a junior doe, so she is still maturing.


My buck is not a big "fall off" guy but still gets the job done consistently. 
Good luck!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 4, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> My buck is not a big "fall off" guy but still gets the job done consistently.
> Good luck!



Oh wow, I didn't realize that they still could have been bred . I guess I will be building some more nest boxes!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 13, 2017)

Malu had her babies overnight/early morning sometime. She had five kits. Three were on the wire and were dead when my the rabbits were checked this morning, the other two are doing fine still and were in the nest box. I haven't gotten to see them yet, as I only visit my parents on the weekends and the rabbits are at their home. I will be driving down tomorrow night, so pics over the weekend. Here's to praying the two do well! 

So at least she is a proven doe now, and I am hopeful that with the next litter she will be more knowledgeable.


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## LocoYokel (Jul 14, 2017)

Congrats! Can't wait to see them.
Sorry about the others...  That seems to be a favorite trick for a first timer but I am sure you are right to think the next litter will be easier for her, if not for you!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 14, 2017)

Good News, another kit was found so we have three little ones.  I will get photos tomorrow. I am here now but it is a bit dark to take pics.


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 15, 2017)

Malu's Kits Day 2


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## LocoYokel (Jul 16, 2017)




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## HaloRabbits (Jul 16, 2017)

SO sad news, the one we didn't know about but mysteriously found did not make it. Down to two little ones. Oh these first time moms will be the reason I get grey hairs.


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 23, 2017)

Unfortunately we were down to 1 kit for a few days and then we lost it today at 10 days old.  Not sure if we should breed her back now or breed our proven doe. 

I wanted to leave her to rest because she has 7 week old kits. We have another first time doe due in 9 days. So I am praying that goes well. She is about 1 lb bigger than Malu and idk if that will help her or what?


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## LocoYokel (Jul 31, 2017)

Sorry, just saw your unfortunate outcome.   These first-time does are going to give us an education wether we want one or not! 

I know some folk breed does as soon as a week after kindling.  It seems to me that waiting until the kits are weaned and the doe back into prime would make for the healthiest litter.  

@Pastor Dave had this advice for me:
"Unproven does are so unpredictable. Sometimes milk doesn't come in at first, and a litter dwindles down. Generally if that happens once, rebreeding quickly will get the hormones engaged and the milk will come in better next time. Sometimes the genetics weren't right to start with and kits fail to thrive. All you can do is make sure her nutrition is good and protein is up for breeding and nursing."
(Quote button won't work)

Your next doe must be due by now, sure hope this litter goes better for you!


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## HaloRabbits (Aug 3, 2017)

@LocoYokel I agree, the earliest I have rebreed is when the kits were 4 weeks, so that she would have two weeks between weaning them and kindling. I prefer to rebreed around the time of weaning. I actually weaned the kits about a week and a half ago and haven't rebreed her yet. (Tres, the older doe) 

I did see that post from Pastor Dave on your thread. I plan to rebreed Malu this weekend, but I will also be breeding Tres with our unproven buck. 

Orian had her babies today, four big healthy babies. It is a small litter but maybe that is good for her first time, because it is less stress on her body. I am really rooting for her, she is a great size and a very chill doe. We raised her from the nest box so she is much calmer and friendlier than her mother Tres.


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## HaloRabbits (Aug 5, 2017)

Photos of Orian and her kits:


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## HaloRabbits (Sep 10, 2017)

Hello everyone! Sorry I have been a bit MIA lately. A lot has been going on healthwise with family. 

Update on the mamas
Orian: she did great! All four babies are doing great, at 4 and a half weeks they were all over a pound and the biggest was 1.66 pounds. 
Tres: she was bred with our unproven buck about a week ago so FX on a nice litter in a few weeks. 
Malu: She is on strike 2.  This time she didn't kindle until day 35! She also only had 1 ?! And when I went out there the baby was on the wire, dead. (this may be TMI) but it was sort of smushed looking so I don't know if maybe it was underdeveloped or what. I am really hoping she doesn't have more stuck in there but I highly doubt it because I tried to feel her tummy a couple days before kindling and I didn't feel anything (I was starting to doubt if she was pregnant).. I am really debating on whether or not I should use the 3 strike rule with her, she isn't improving with each litter, it seems she is getting worse. 

Aoki and Adara are getting nice and big, they are old enough to breed now and they have gotten their dewlaps! I bred Aoki with Bonzai on 09/08/17. FX for her!  I plan to breed Adara in a week or two.


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## Bunnylady (Sep 10, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> Malu: She is on strike 2.  This time she didn't kindle until day 35! She also only had 1 ?! And when I went out there the baby was on the wire, dead. (this may be TMI) but it was sort of smushed looking so I don't know if maybe it was underdeveloped or what. I am really hoping she doesn't have more stuck in there but I highly doubt it because I tried to feel her tummy a couple days before kindling and I didn't feel anything (I was starting to doubt if she was pregnant).. I am really debating on whether or not I should use the 3 strike rule with her, she isn't improving with each litter, it seems she is getting worse.



A doe that is carrying only one or two frequently goes to day 34 or 35, and the kits are generally so huge they seldom survive the birth process.

There are a variety of reasons why a doe might conceive such a small number; issues with the buck's fertility, issues with the doe's fertility, even something like poor timing of the breeding. If I have a doe that kindles and loses a small litter like this, I give her a day or so, then rebreed her. A healthy doe gets a big hormone surge immediately after kindling, and is usually quite willing to breed. Frequently, she will kindle the largest litter she is capable of producing when rebred like this. If the buck is producing good litters with other does around that time, I can rule him out, by rebreeding her on what should be her most fertile time, I can rule my timing out. If the doe still doesn't produce a decent litter from such a breeding, I can pretty safely assume the problem is her.


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## HaloRabbits (Sep 10, 2017)

@Bunnylady I am pretty confident it isn't the buck because he is my 'main' buck and I haven't had any problems with the other litters produced by him. Maybe my timing was off? Thanks for the advise, I will rebreed tomorrow and see what happens.


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## HaloRabbits (Oct 3, 2017)

Updates:

we attempted to rebreed *Malu *after that failed litter. She was not willing to breed and was even aggressive to the buck. So I am thinking that is her third strike right there.

*Tres *is due tomorrow with a litter from *Playboy *(our unproven buck) FX the breeding was successful.

*Aoki *our blue doe (maiden doe) is due with a litter from Bonzai in 6 days.

*Adara *our Gold tipped steel was finally bred today to Bonzai so she should be due Nov 3rd.


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## LocoYokel (Nov 2, 2017)

Update? Pics? 
Fall is a busy time and sounds like you will be busy with bunnies! Would love to see them.


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## HaloRabbits (Feb 17, 2018)

Hi! SO sorry I have been MIA. Things have been quite hectic. Lets see... 

*MALU*: We never got a successful breeding again, so we are going to dispatch her. 
*ADARA*: Passed away like a week before she was due, unsure of cause. Quite disheartening. 
*Orian*: has really proven to be a fantastic mommy just like her own mother
*Tres*: She is our number one Doe  No complaints
*Aoki*: She has proven to be a great doe as well. We kept a BUCK from her October litter and plan to see if we can start a line of blues!
*Playboy *(the unproven buck): somehow hurt his leg and so we dispatched him.  

I think that about catches us up! So yeah, we have three great does and I am trying to decide who to keep a doe from next because Ideally we would like to have 4 does and 2 bucks.


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## HaloRabbits (Feb 18, 2018)

Got a guy coming out in about an hour to learn how to dispatch and clean a rabbit. That seems completely reasonable, the kicker, he wants to have his two you daughters watch . I'm like are you sure?! He wants them to see the process, to see if they will eat the rabbits before he starts a rabbitry. Idk about you guys but I am thinking kids are a lot more willing to try something if they didn't watch it get killed.


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## 16029 (Feb 22, 2018)

How did it go?


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## HaloRabbits (Feb 25, 2018)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> How did it go?


Surprisingly well. He ended up bringing just one daughter, and she didn't watch the killing but she did watch everything else. It "wasn't as bad as" she had imagined lol. 

So I have a *question*! I breed year round and I am trying to bring a maiden doe but she _isn't lifting_ for the buck. At first I figured she just may not be fertile and I tried again a week later, but still nothing. She isn't running or being aggressive though. Could the winter be the reason she isn't receptive? All the other does I bred this winter were already proven. Or do you think that could just be a coincidence?


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## 16029 (Feb 26, 2018)

Great. 

Could be something with winter. I had a hard time getting some NZ does bred this winter. I dont know if course of the cold or less daylight. Try giving her apple cider vinegar for a few days and see if it helps.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 4, 2018)

Hatties Hoppers said:


> Great.
> 
> Could be something with winter. I had a hard time getting some NZ does bred this winter. I dont know if course of the cold or less daylight. Try giving her apple cider vinegar for a few days and see if it helps.



Good to hear, I was a little concerned about it. I'll give the ACV a try!


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## 16029 (Mar 4, 2018)

Hope it helps


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 11, 2018)

Well, that doe I was trying to breed left here as part of a trio. I told the person she hasn't been receptive to breeding yet. Hopefully they will have luck with her soon. I am thinking of keeping a female from my blue doe and red buck to see if I can get any reds. I hear it is hard to get reds but will keep my fingers crossed!


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## Bunnylady (Mar 11, 2018)

HaloRabbits said:


> I hear it is hard to get reds but will keep my fingers crossed!



Good luck to you! 

This is a  New Zealand Red:
A_B_C_D_eeww++++

This is a Blue
aaB_C_ddE_W_

Your best hope from a cross of these two would be
AaB_C_DdEdWw++

If you bred that back to a good Red, you've got maybe a 1 in 16 chance (about 6%) of getting all the right genes for a decent Red in the first generation. But hey, it could happen.Be warned, though - I often joke that if there is a particular color that you are looking for, it's going to be the last you see, or it's going to be the baby that gets pulled out of the nest box and dies, or in some other way, deprives you of what you want. Just one more way my rabbits work their slogan, "how can we drive her crazy today?!"


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 11, 2018)

@Bunnylady Yes! I know what you mean, my "black" doe I have gives me gold tipped steel kits 95% of the time! One of the "black and white" does I kept from her last year shows no steel like her mom but has given me tons of steel kits! My blue doe has a steel in her great grand generation, and she gave me steels as well! If my buck I bred these last two to wasn't red I would blame it on him!


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 17, 2018)

We've decided to keep a couple steel rabbits. We keep getting them anyways . Keiko (the doe) has a ton of ticking, I'm hoping that means she has some good modifiers and/or ww. 

Keiko


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## Bunnylady (Mar 17, 2018)

Nice looking rabbit, whatever her color. Hope she does well for you.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 18, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> Nice looking rabbit, whatever her color. Hope she does well for you.



Thank you! I try not to compromise on conformation while playing with these color genetics.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 24, 2018)

Going to try and breed my youngest buck this weekend! I know he carries blue, I am trying to decide to breed him to one that carries blue as well or one that is blue. The one that carries blue shares no genes with him and the one that is blue shares roughly 1/2 the same genetic material. I am all about genetic diversity, but if I breed two that carry blue I only have 25% chance to get a blue. With the other doe (the blue) I will have a 50% chance!


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 15, 2018)

I decided to breed the buck with the doe that carries blue, so we have a 25% chance of blue babies. I bred the Blue doe to our seasoned buck the same day. I have two does I am waiting to breed, I want to spread the births out a little bit. 

My mom wants a "pet" rabbit, and I am looking at a couple lion head bucks that a guy not too far from us has. He bought some mealworms from me a while back and we got to talking about rabbits. Lionheads are a better size as far as pets are concerned. Her birthday is in one month.  

Just because my curiosity got sparked, I googled lionhead x New Zealand, they are some funny looking rabbits  kind of cute tho


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## Wehner Homestead (Apr 16, 2018)

Best wishes on the two does you are waiting on to kindle! I hope you get blues and reds!


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 17, 2018)

Wehner Homestead said:


> I hope you get blues and reds!



Thanks!  I'm actually buying a red doe in a week  she isn't pedigreed like my other rabbits but in a few generations I will be able to have a pedigreed line from her. She is coming from  a meat rabbit home so I didn't really expect her to be pedigreed. She is only 8 weeks so it'll be a while before she is bred. 

In the meantime I will breed Keiko in a week or so and see if I can get a red baby from her . She is a maiden doe but I have high hopes she will be a great doe like her mother.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 28, 2018)

Phantom pregnancy? I have a doe pulling fur and putting it in the corner of the cage as if shes building a nest. I have never had a phantom pregnancy before. She last kindled end of January, so not too long ago. I went ahead and put a nest box in with her to relieve any stress but I know she has not been in with any males since December (when she was last bred). We also removed her babies from her cage at 7 weeks which we usually do, so I think it would be extremely unusual for her to have been bred by one of her kits.


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## promiseacres (Apr 28, 2018)

I would say false.


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