# Worming older goat with ivermectin? Update



## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

Older pygmy goat (16) with strongyles. She's appears to be resistant to Safe guard (no surprise). Vet wants me to stop safe guard and start ivermectin immediately. Normally I would do injections, but she is very bony due to age and parasites. I'm going to give orally (with the vet's blessing), and am going to have to do my best at weight guess. She's on the small side and normally around 40-50#, but given age and condition, i would guess she's more like 30-40# now. Unfortunately, I don't have scales to get more accurate. I'm going to treat her as a 40#. My question is for anyone who has given ivermectin orally. I've read that if there is a heavy worm load, that the oral dose could be dangerous. Has anyone ever had issues with oral doses?
She is doing well as far as appetite and water intake. She is weak in the front, so we have to help her get up in the front, but she'll lift her back end and wait for help. If you don't get there quick enough, she'll push herself across her shavings to you. However, once she's up you wouldn't know much was wrong with her. She maintained her pygmy attitude and think's she 3, so sometimes moves too fast and stumbles and needs help up again. 
I want to give her every chance and I think this is the best route, but I also remind myself that she's right up there for a pygmy.
I am also looking for a quilted weather resistant small vest to help keep her warm. I plan to find a small one and put it on her backwards with the zipper on the back. This should also help support her so she can stand up on her own.
Any thoughts from someone who has experience with something similar would be greatly appreciated.


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## babsbag (Nov 23, 2016)

Did you get a fecal done and if so how heavy is the worm load?  I have a friend that lost a doe when worming orally with Ivermectin but she was LOADED. 

Many times Safeguard appears not to work as the dose is much higher than what is listed plus you have to do it 3-5 days in a row.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

Thanks for your reply.
I'm on day 4 of safe guard. I can certainly up the dose for today and tomorrow. 
Yes, fecal was done. But, the vet is very good and I specifically asked if he thought the ivermectin would be too much orally. He said go ahead.
I've been doing this through messages and never got the actual number.
I was going to give her 1ml of 1% ivomec orally. That seems to fall right in the middle of what I've been told for dosage. Some say 1 ml per 25# and others say 1 ml per 50#.
My thought now is to maybe double the safe guard dose for today and tomorrow. If I don't see a visible shed, then I'll start ivermectin on Saturday.
Does that sound like a good plan?


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 23, 2016)

saltnpepper said:


> If I don't see a visible shed, then I'll start ivermectin on Saturday.


What do you mean visible shed? 
You can't see stronglyes without a scope.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

Sorry, not me, the vet. Supposed to take a sample back on Friday.


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## NH homesteader (Nov 23, 2016)

What makes the vet believe she is resistant to safeguard when you haven't completed the dosing? It's nice to hear someone so committed to helping a doe through her good old years.  16 is quite old! 

I'm going to tag @frustratedearthmother the resident Pygmy expert and @Southern by choice the resident parasite expert.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 23, 2016)

What dosage are you using with the Safeguard?
You can also pick her up stand on a scale then subtract your weight for a more accurate weight. Not a pygmy gal but that weight does not sound right.


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## Mini Horses (Nov 23, 2016)

Have you considered getting a dog or foal blanket?    I would sew a handle strap on the top so you could grab it to pull her up.

If she has a heavy worm load the die off can form a toxin which can affect her.    Plus, there may be intestinal damage if she's been infected for a long period.  The absorption of needed vit/min, proteins, electrolytes may be compromised and you may want to ask the vet about some concentrated nutrition for a while until she comes around.   Just a thought.   These smaller animals do not have the volume capacity so concentrates often work better to offset some of the  need with more availability from which to draw.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> What makes the vet believe she is resistant to safeguard when you haven't completed the dosing? It's nice to hear someone so committed to helping a doe through her good old years.  16 is quite old!
> 
> I'm going to tag @frustratedearthmother the resident Pygmy expert and @Southern by choice the resident parasite expert.



We went through safe guard treatment about a month or so ago. So this was her second float which led him to believe there is a resistance. But, we did 3 days of treatment at the suggested dose. .6ml per 25#. We were giving 1.2 ml. This is now the second round of safe guard. I was giving suggested dose, but increased tonight and will tomorrow as well.

And thank you! Our animals tend to live into their golden years.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

We took a video of her tonight. I am trying to get it to upload.


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## babsbag (Nov 23, 2016)

16 is an old girl, you are awesome to care so much about her. The dose I usually see for Safeguard is 1cc /10 lbs. ...this is the liquid for goats.  Ivermectin I use 1 cc / 50 lbs.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

babsbag said:


> 16 is an old girl, you are awesome to care so much about her. The dose I usually see for Safeguard is 1cc /10 lbs. ...this is the liquid for goats.  Ivermectin I use 1 cc / 50 lbs.



I can see how so many people say that safeguard doesn't work. Sounds like their dosage is way under.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> Have you considered getting a dog or foal blanket?    I would sew a handle strap on the top so you could grab it to pull her up.
> 
> If she has a heavy worm load the die off can form a toxin which can affect her.    Plus, there may be intestinal damage if she's been infected for a long period.  The absorption of needed vit/min, proteins, electrolytes may be compromised and you may want to ask the vet about some concentrated nutrition for a while until she comes around.   Just a thought.   These smaller animals do not have the volume capacity so concentrates often work better to offset some of the  need with more availability from which to draw.



Thank you. I have been considering what more we can do to support her nutritionally while she recovers. She definitely has no lack in appetite.


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## babsbag (Nov 23, 2016)

How about a little Calf Manna added to her feed? And I mean "a little"...whatever the bag suggest for her size and then lock it away. 

You've heard of 'manna from heaven'? Well that is what the goats think this stuff is. More is not better but it is a really good supplement.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 23, 2016)

OMG that is way under dosing
You need an accurate weight and 1cc per 10 lbs...
3days id for average load for high loads it should be 5 days.
Remember it kills 4th stage. So running a fecal to check for efficacy should be done several days after treatment. You really want to repeat to kill all stages.
If this were my goat I would do the 1cc/10# for 5 days then 2weeks later ivermectin 1cc 30-50 # ( we do 40 lbs) and repeat ivermectin every 10 days for 30 days. 

I stepped away before finishing this post so I saw several have already shared this info about the safeguard.

Of course you should always work with your vet. We are not vets and manage our herds according to our experiences and our different vets.

As far as the calf manna it is good but be very careful. Especially a doe that old... too much protein can do more harm than good.
Giving probiotics will help with her gut as well. Beet pulp is a good supplement.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

This is 16 yr old Aleshia. She has been separated from her 13 yr old niece Pepper because Pepper has horns and way to rough for Aleshia now.
She comes out of her pen and gets into the hay. She's steady with no obstacles on clear floor, but you'll see her stumble when she moves too quickly from floor back into straw/shavings. Once she's back in and standing in it, she's okay.


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## babsbag (Nov 23, 2016)

She looks pretty good for 16 yrs old. Have you owned her all this time? And a 13 year old niece...you must be doing something right.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 23, 2016)

babsbag said:


> She looks pretty good for 16 yrs old. Have you owned her all this time? And a 13 year old niece...you must be doing something right.



Thank you!
Just over 13 years ago, Aleshia's owner let me know that Aleshia's sister just had two girls that were in need of a home. A few months after we got Salt and Pepper, Aleshia conveniently needed a home. (I think that was the plan all along..lol.) She was 3 and has been my girl since.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 26, 2016)

Aleshia is still doing well. Still needs help getting the front up, but seems to be trying more on her own. Definitely has attitude and very pushy once her feet are under her. (Thinks she runs the barn.)
I'm gonna give her system a break for a week or so and work on supplementing her nutrition. Then we'll dose with ivermectin. Fingers crossed that this will get her back on track.
Thank you all for your input.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 26, 2016)

What do her eyelids look like?

Glad she is still doing okay!


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## saltnpepper (Nov 26, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> What do her eyelids look like?
> 
> Glad she is still doing okay!


She was a bit pale. Seems to have a little more pink back.


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## babsbag (Nov 26, 2016)




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## TAH (Nov 27, 2016)

Glad she seems to be doing okay


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## Bruce (Nov 27, 2016)

As @Southern by choice said, best to work with the vet. But I am curious about oral vs injectable Ivermectin. At least with alpacas (for meningeal worm) it is a subcutaneous injection so I wouldn't think it would matter that she is bony. Wouldn't that mean more loose skin and make tenting easier??


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 27, 2016)

Bruce said:


> As @Southern by choice said, best to work with the vet. But I am curious about oral vs injectable Ivermectin. At least with alpacas (for meningeal worm) it is a subcutaneous injection so I wouldn't think it would matter that she is bony. Wouldn't that mean more loose skin and make tenting easier??


Dewormers should be given orally to goats because they have very high metabolisms and it is much more effective given that way. Injecting it is very painful for the goat and is absorbed quickly into the bloodstream before it reaches the worms in the goat's rumen. Because it is not as effective, it leads to parasite resistance. I think the only time (I may be wrong) it should be injected is if they have mites.

This is from the Tennessee Meat Goat site for meningeal worm treatment:
_Ivermectin was eliminated from the curative treatment protocol because researchers at Ohio State University found that it didn't penetrate the spinal column to kill the worms, so once neurological symptoms appeared, using Ivermectin was ineffective._

A skinny goat (I think) would be harder to give an injection to than a plump one.


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## saltnpepper (Nov 27, 2016)

Bruce said:


> As @Southern by choice said, best to work with the vet. But I am curious about oral vs injectable Ivermectin. At least with alpacas (for meningeal worm) it is a subcutaneous injection so I wouldn't think it would matter that she is bony. Wouldn't that mean more loose skin and make tenting easier??


Thank you for your thoughts.
I've given as injection for skin issue on our other and it worked great. For internal parasites, I know is better oral, but wanted to know if anyone has had a bad experience doing so. I'm convinced it's the best thing for her. Just giving her a break between meds right now.


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## Bruce (Nov 27, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Dewormers should be given orally to goats because they have very high metabolisms and it is much more effective given that way. Injecting it is very painful for the goat and is absorbed quickly into the bloodstream before it reaches the worms in the goat's rumen. Because it is not as effective, it leads to parasite resistance. I think the only time (I may be wrong) it should be injected is if they have mites.
> 
> This is from the Tennessee Meat Goat site for meningeal worm treatment:
> _Ivermectin was eliminated from the curative treatment protocol because researchers at Ohio State University found that it didn't penetrate the spinal column to kill the worms, so once neurological symptoms appeared, using Ivermectin was ineffective._
> ...



Thanks for the information. Yep, Ivermectin in alpacas is given as a prophylactic whenever the intermediate hosts (slugs and snails) are alive. That means when it isn't freezing  Given a doe had twins behind the pond INSIDE the fence last spring, there is no question I need to keep up with the Ivermectin regime. I don't know that she will do it again this year since the alpacas are there. It was fun watching the fawns run around when they dared to come out of hiding in the tall weeds.


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