# Heifer calf with rabbit-like poo pellets?



## amysflock (Jan 28, 2009)

All,

I thought we'd had bunnies in the paddock with the cows until I saw Annabel (8 weeks old) produce a bunch of dark brown, rabbit-like poo pellets.

What is causing this, and do I need to worry/do anything about it? Everyone else's poo looks like cow patties as it should. They've all been eating haylage for the last two weeks, and Annabel has been nursing from her mama still (Bridgit, the mama, gets a bucket of soaked beet pulp, some alfalfa pellets and grain each evening, as does our other mama, Sheila, although Bridgit's is richer in alfalfa and grain than Sheila's is).

Thanks!


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## Thewife (Jan 28, 2009)

Are they like Rabbit pellets or like Elk pellets?


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## Farmer Kitty (Jan 29, 2009)

My opinion, she's not gettng enough protein. Plus, a calf that young shouldn't be getting hayledge. She should be getting grain and once she's eating 5-6 pounds a day you can add baled hay.


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## Thewife (Jan 29, 2009)

Farmer Kitty said:
			
		

> My opinion, she's not gettng enough protein. Plus, a calf that young shouldn't be getting hayledge. She should be getting grain and once she's eating 5-6 pounds a day you can add baled hay.


Every now and them we get one or two that leave behind almost Elk like pellets. I was told it was a salt/mineral thing?
None of them showed any sign of sickness or lacking anything, so I have always just made sure the blocks were more accesible to the calves?
My calves are on mamas milk and hay, no grain.


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## Farmer Kitty (Jan 29, 2009)

I asked DH, who has worked in the feedmill for 30+ years, and his opinion is the same as mine. She could try one of the suggestions and if that doesn't work try the other. 

I am really concerned about calves that young eating the hayledge too. Their stomachs are developing and I have to worry about that hayledge becoming a problem.


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## wynedot55 (Jan 29, 2009)

i would try giving the calf a 1 or 2 lbs of feed.if you could.an see what that does to her poop.calves really dont need hayledge till they are 4 months old.


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## allenacres (Feb 1, 2009)

Since this calf is a beef calf, who has always nursed from her mother, which is the MAJORITY of her diet, and she has an upset system, it makes absolutely no sense to me to feed her grain. If her system is upset from a dietary change, dont go further and change her diet more. The majority of her intake is her mothers milk, nothing else.

 She is getting PLENTY of protein nursing from her very healthy mother. 

Farmer Kitty, you raise Dairy cattle and they don't nurse from a cow, thus the reason  you would need to grain feed your calves. These are beef cattle that are left with their mothers. The mother can and does provide all that the calf will need nutrition wise. They do not need grain nor IMHO is it good for them. (Grass fed beef is so much healthier than grain fed beef but thats a whole nuther topic) Reading all the crap that is in grain, one of the MAIN reasons why many of us raise our own beef, I would never feed it to cattle. I dont even feed my horses grain, other than pure oats, if needed to suppliment. Way too much sugar and fillers in grain. Bleck!

After the first 24 hrs a calves stomach changes, thus the reason its useless to give a calf colostrum after the first 24 hrs.  After the first 24 hrs, they can eat anything and they do, including tasting the dirt in the pasture, some manure, etc etc. They are curious calves that lean by sticking that little tongue out and tasting things. Their stomachs and guts can handle this after the first 24 hr because their stomach has changed. Doesnt mean they will continue to eat dirt or manure, but if they do eat or drink anything besides their mothers milk it wont hurt them. And this info is directly from my vet, and a conversation I had with her.

If this calf has a dietary upset, from her mothers milk changing because HER diet changed, then I would guess that the hayledge was richer in protein than her normal diet, and thus the milk was richer and either that upset the calf's system or the cow produced more milk, because of the free feeding of hayledge and thus the calf pigged out. I dont know but they are possibilities. Most likely her system will correct itself.


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 1, 2009)

I've been told by several vets and feed guys, that it doesn't matter whether they are beef or dairy as to when their stomachs all develop. And they change for a lot longer than the 24 hours your stating. They have 4 stomachs or stomach parts depending on how you look at it. They all develop at a different time in the calf's life-thus my concern about her eating hayledge. At 2 months old I would imagine she is eating more and more solids, even as a beef calf, but, as I stated before I'm worried that it is hayledge due to the compacting in her stomach. 

Here's an explanation I found in a cattle book on their stomachs.


> Cows stomachs
> 1. The Rumen - this is the largest part and holds upto 50 gallons of partially digested food. This is where the 'cud' comes from. Good bacteria in the Rumen helps soften and digest the cow's food and provides protein for the cow.
> 2. The Recticulum - this part of the stomach is called the 'hardware' stomach. This is because if the cow eats something it shouldn't have like a peice of fencing, it lodges here in the Recticulum and cause no damage to the cow. Also, the grass that has been eaten is also softened further and and formed into small wads of cud. Each cud returns to the cow's mouth and is chewed 40-60 times and then swallowed properly.
> 3. The Omasum - this part of the stomach is a 'filter'. It filters through all the food the cow eats. The cud is also pressed and broken down further.
> 4. The Abomasum - this part of the stomach is like a human's stomach and is connected to the intestines. Here, the food is finally digested by the cow's stomach juices and essential nutrients that the cow needs are passed through the bloodstream. The rest is passed through to the intestines and produces a 'cow pat'


Do you realize you can have grain specially made to how you want at a feed mill? You don't have to put all that sweet stuff or the other garbage that some premade grains have in them. I know this because we do it.


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## kstaven (Feb 1, 2009)

Although it was stated from several different perspectives on calf rearing and feeding. The common thread I have to agree with is this is a rumen upset caused by dietary intake. Not all breeds or individual calves develop exactly the same way or as quickly. What one will tolerate at that age another may not.

Best to take this calf back to moms milk and maybe a little dry hay, and not fermented hayledge. If the rumen is in anyway slow in developing in this calf then the hayledge or grain will be slower to digest and thus ferment in the rumen causing an upset.


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## allenacres (Feb 1, 2009)

I never said a calves stomach does not continue to change after the first 24 hrs, I stated "After the first 24 hrs a calves stomach changes".


And you would never give a calf, or any animal, grain if you thought they was"compacting in her stomach" or impaction somewhere in their system. You would give them mineral oil.

And by 8 weeks of age the Rumen has greatly increased and a calf can certainly handle other feeds besides milk, and should be, but I still would not feed a beef animal grain as it is not necessary. Feed good quality hay and if you cant get good quality hay supplement them with some alfalfa.

Yes I do know you can get custom milled grains, as we have a nearby mill. But for this one mill there are at least five feed stores, if not more, within a 20 mile radius. That mill is not very busy but the feed stores are very busy.


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## Thewife (Feb 1, 2009)

I found a pile of elk like calf droppings today.

As far as I know, the only thing me and Amy calves have in commom is the weather!
Mine are on mama, grass hay and a maybe a tiny bite or two of the green grass that is trying to grow!

Like I said, I was always told it had to do with the salt/minerals, I will admit the person who tlold me this, told me "a lot of things"

So I will make sure they have access tomorrow, and try to figure out who did it!
Then go from there!


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## kstaven (Feb 1, 2009)

It is just one of those areas where one comes along to throw a new curve at you. Raise enough animals and you will no doubt see things you never dreamed of. We never stop learning.


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 2, 2009)

allenacres said:
			
		

> Yes I do know you can get custom milled grains, as we have a nearby mill. But for this one mill there are at least five feed stores, if not more, within a 20 mile radius. That mill is not very busy but the feed stores are very busy.


There are a lot of people who prefer the convince of walking in and having it ready, which you can have with a feedmill too if you plan ahead. Plus, many people don't understand the differences in grains. These could be why the stores are more busy or maybe it's a bad mill, I don't know but, it's food for thought.

Oh, and they can custom mix minerals too. So if you have a free choice mineral feeder that is an option. There are laws about how much *they* can add of somethings though. But, note how I said they. If you want more added because you know it's needed, work with your feedmill so you can be there when they are making your mineral. *You* can add more.



			
				thewife said:
			
		

> As far as I know, the only thing me and Amy calves have in commom is the weather!


And there is the one factor we can do nothing about.


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## allenacres (Feb 2, 2009)

No the mill is fine, I know someone who gets organic custom mixes from them, but not for cattle.
But you are missing my whole point. You keep pushing grain grain grain...and grain is not necessary for beef cattle, and especially not as a new food for a calf with an upset system.

Exactly kstaven, "you never stop learning", or at least you shouldn't. Right! It really bothers me when people say they have been doing something for many many years, or they learned it from such and such who has been doing it that way for their whole life. That is great, that someone is willing to share their wisdom. But do you know why?  I challenge anyone to take it further and find out why it was done that way? What is the reason behind it?  Is it the correct way, or is there a better way? Better for the animal and better for your wallet. 

In the case of the elk pellets and someone saying someone told them its because the animal needed salt/minerals? Why? Is this related to the elk pellets or by giving the animal salt and they in turn drank more water and their manure became hydrated. So is this really a case of the animal needing salt/minerals or were they dehydrated and the salt made them thirsty and they drank more?  So it really didnt have anything to do with the salt/minerals, it really had to do with the animal not drinking enough and being dehydrated.   Thus my point, continue to ask questions and continue to learn, even if you have done it that way for many years. (Im just using the elk pellets as an example. Im not saying anyones animal needs salt/minerals or was dehydrated)


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 2, 2009)

In no way was I pushing grain in my last post. Just showing there were other options to the mixes in the feed stores and why many people buy those mixes instead of custom. You had brought up the fact that many of those mixes have a lot of garbage in them, I was trying to point out to those who choose grain that there are other options. Many feed mineral free choice but, are not satisfied with the premixed minerals out there so I thought I would let them know there is another option. 

You want to raise your cattle grass fed but, remember there are some who prefer to use some grain too. It's not necessary to run either way down. 

Using the elk pellets as an example again, how would you suggest that they try to get the calf to drink more, if it were dehydrated? If you have a free choice salt/mineral block out there and they lick it, then by theroy they needed it. Assuming of course that water/milk is available at all times, so that isn't the issue.


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## beefy (Feb 2, 2009)

everybody calm down. pellets happen all the time.its more along the lines of the calf being a little dehydrated than anything. this is fairly common when a young calf starts to eat more roughage than it has been eating, especially if it pigs out on it. the calf will correct itself, so long as it does not get too constipated (and it sounds fine). if it gets constipated you will notice its discomfort, it may lay down a lot and roll to its side slightly, or kick at its stomach. if you notice this it may help to walk the calf around a while or give it some mineral oil to help things slide by. the calf should be getting plenty of protein from its mothers milk and the mother should be getting plenty from the grain and alfalfa she is receiving. i wouldnt recommend giving the calf grain either, although it will probably have corrected its bowel problem by the time it learned to eat the grain anyway if you did try to feed it some. the best thing for it will be milk or water (which they get mostly from milk)


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## amysflock (Feb 2, 2009)

The outcome of this story, as it relates to my original post is:

1) Haylage has been gone for almost a week, mamas (and calves) are back on timothy hay, babies are nursing, nothing about free choice minerals changed.

2) Several other sources concurred that it was likely milk scours caused by the dietary change in mama, and as predicted, she's gotten over it.

3) We fed grain (less than 3 lbs per day) to both Bridgit and Sheila every evening for the month before and two months after the calves were born to supplement their diets, this in addition to soaked beet pulp and some alfalfa pellets. This has stopped, too, because it's no longer needed and because the bull comes on Saturday and we have no business bucket feeding two cows with him in the same paddock.

We learned (since this is all a learning process for everyone) that haylage isn't good for calves as young as ours...another two months older and it likely would have been fine, and even being just two weeks older than Annabel, T-Bone had no ill effects. Also, for us, the haylage, while convenient, didn't turn out to be a good deal financially, since they consumed the $40 bale in less than two weeks (whereas our hay was purchased at $3/bale).

Maybe someday in the future we might try haylage again, but for now we'll utilize our round bale feeder for timothy grass hay and call it good.

And, our beef cows, for the most part (and certainly for any we butcher) will be grass fed, so we will not be making grain a permanent part of any of our animals' diets.

Thanks.


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## wynedot55 (Feb 2, 2009)

ok i just did some quick math.tobe safe you need to feed 2sq bales a day to the cows/calves.now thats $6 a day or $1.50 a hd a day.or $42 of hay a week.where your giving $40 a bale for the baleage.an it last 14 days.thats $3 a day for 4hd wich is .75 a hd/day.so youd be cheaper to feed the baleage.an feed 1 bale of hay for roughage.an you would still be at $1.50 a hd.but your costs would be split.8 months feeding hay,means youd need 16 balageage bales.the cost for those would be $640 a yr.now sq bales youd need 500 bales.thats $1500 a yr.now feed 250 sq bales thats $750.now add them togather thats $1390 a yr.thus your saving $110 a yr.


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 2, 2009)

amysflock said:
			
		

> since they consumed the $40 bale in less than two weeks


They ate the bale in less than 2 weeks so she would need more hayledge bales than your figuring. Plus, the young calves shouldn't have them.

amysflock, did you purchase your hay locally? If so, did you buy it off the field or after they had put it up? The reason I'm asking is sometimes you can buy it cheaper if you buy it off the field. The farmers don't have to handle it as much or store it so sometimes they will lower the price. This could bring down your feeding costs too, if your able to take advantage of it(finding someone locally and storage).


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## wynedot55 (Feb 2, 2009)

to tighten the figures i need to know how long the bale lasted.an the size of the bale.as you knopw a haylege bale will wiegh more than the same size dry bale of hay.


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## kstaven (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey Allenacres. One thing I would mention when it comes to grain or no grain is that whether you can do it depends on forage, soil quality and the breed or genetics of the cows. I have seen dexters and highlands thrive on pasture where a holstein would starve to death.

I have jerseys here that thrive on good pasture and winter hay only and have had a few that did not ( we had to grain or they would have starved). We select for those that thrive on pasture and have very carefully built up the soil over a number of years also. Yes, it cost us in production and $$$ along the way. If we where getting the pittance payed per hundred weight for milk or the low price for beef with todays prices for everything else we would have bankrupted ourselves. Fortunate for us we are not tied to that system.

So while I follow a pasture based system I am always very cautious about recommending it as some people just don't have the necessary components on their property to make it work. It is something no one should enter into lightly and without a good deal of time educating themselves.

Then there is the issue of not bankrupting ones self if you chose to adopt that type of system.


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## wynedot55 (Feb 3, 2009)

you are forgfetting 1 true fact about farming cattle an dairing.your always working on the edge of going broke.we always made a goodliving milking cows.an was always on the edge of going broke.but we milked for 27yrs.


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## amysflock (Feb 3, 2009)

Yes, it was local grass hay picked up by us off the field. A few of our bales ended up pretty stemmy and unpalatable; we used these as bedding in our two open stalls during our super cold weather, and this summer will avoid the portion of the field we think we got them from.

We don't have a tractor (yet) but someday we'll be able to purchase round bales instead of the smaller rectangular ones, which will be more efficient and easier on us physically. We won't to haylage again until next year, likely, unless we need some "extra" forage between Feb. and April when we can let the cows back out on pasture (so the calves will be a little older, too; they won't be weaned until June).


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 3, 2009)

You don't have a tractor but were feeding bales of hayledge! I hope when they were delivered they were setup for you to open a fence and let them at them or something! Those things are heavy to push by hand.


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## kstaven (Feb 5, 2009)

wynedot55 said:
			
		

> you are forgfetting 1 true fact about farming cattle an dairing.your always working on the edge of going broke.we always made a goodliving milking cows.an was always on the edge of going broke.but we milked for 27yrs.


All too true! If you are capable of tapping niche markets it helps a lot.


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## amysflock (Feb 8, 2009)

Ha ha, Kitty, yes they WERE heavy, and no, we don't have a tractor! It was in the back of DH's pickup, and we decided to place it at the top of a tiny incline, meaning we were rolling it (sounds too easy) slightly uphill to get it out of the truck. It was a total riot. No money for a tractor yet, but that experience moved "buy a tractor" up on my farm priority list!


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## amysflock (Feb 8, 2009)

wynedot55 said:
			
		

> ok i just did some quick math.tobe safe you need to feed 2sq bales a day to the cows/calves.now thats $6 a day or $1.50 a hd a day.or $42 of hay a week.where your giving $40 a bale for the baleage.an it last 14 days.thats $3 a day for 4hd wich is .75 a hd/day.so youd be cheaper to feed the baleage.an feed 1 bale of hay for roughage.an you would still be at $1.50 a hd.but your costs would be split.8 months feeding hay,means youd need 16 balageage bales.the cost for those would be $640 a yr.now sq bales youd need 500 bales.thats $1500 a yr.now feed 250 sq bales thats $750.now add them togather thats $1390 a yr.thus your saving $110 a yr.


We upped them to 1 1/2 bales per day, but they won't finish any more than that (and sometimes don't finish 1 1/2 bales, either). Any more out for the two calves (and nibbling babies) would be a waste.

We have a bull here now, so we're putting out 2 1/2 and will see if we need to increase for more than 1 bale/day for him.


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## amysflock (Feb 8, 2009)

One more thing...

Our breeder said in his experience cattle will plow through eating anything new the first time like it's candy, then a little more slowly with each successive introduction of that feed. He thinks that if we fed haylage again, but the third time it would take them quite a bit longer to finish.

Have any of you had that experience?


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 8, 2009)

amysflock said:
			
		

> Ha ha, Kitty, yes they WERE heavy, and no, we don't have a tractor! It was in the back of DH's pickup, and we decided to place it at the top of a tiny incline, meaning we were rolling it (sounds too easy) slightly uphill to get it out of the truck. It was a total riot. No money for a tractor yet, but that experience moved "buy a tractor" up on my farm priority list!


That would have been fun to watch! I've helped roll round bales of dry hay and know that is no fun but, hayledge bales.


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## Farmer Kitty (Feb 8, 2009)

amysflock said:
			
		

> One more thing...
> 
> Our breeder said in his experience cattle will plow through eating anything new the first time like it's candy, then a little more slowly with each successive introduction of that feed. He thinks that if we fed haylage again, but the third time it would take them quite a bit longer to finish.
> 
> Have any of you had that experience?


Yes, it's like people when you first find a new food you like that's all you want but, then it gets to be the same old thing. 

They may slow down eating it or they may not. Plus, with the calves your herd is growing so it will take more to feed to.


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## wynedot55 (Feb 8, 2009)

yes cows will piggout on new feed till they get used to it.


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