# Soft stools in 7-week kid



## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

We have had our two Nigerian doelings for a week now. They are 7 weeks old. I wanted to bottle feed them until 10 weeks or so but neither one would accept the bottle. They are eating well, though. Hay, a small amount of sweet feed, and some green shrubbery from the yard (mostly honeysuckle vine). One of the doelings, Clementine, starting having soft stools yesterday instead of the normal dry pellets. It isn't what I would call diarrhea but it's a soft little log. Should I be concerned? Is she getting too much sweet feed? (They've probably each had about half a cup per day.) 

Any advice would be so welcome. I'm trying to give them the best start I can. Thanks!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

The best thing to do is get a fecal run.  I cannot stress this enough. The soft stools could be from diet and diet change but at their age they are also more prone to having a parasitic bloom. Cocci is a big concern for young kids. It doesn't mean they were not healthy or anything like that but a cocci bloom or a parasite worm load can "bloom" and a young kid can go down quickly.
Without a fecal you really cannot tell.


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

I agree with Southern....get a fecal done to check things out.  Make sure that your vet does a longer float to check for cocci.  Take a temperature to rule out viral / bacterial causes as well.  But definitely get that fecal done.  Here's some more information on scours in goats if you're interested.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

In case this is relevant: I've had them indoors for the past few days because it has been cold here. They have spent a few afternoon hours outside in their run. 
Thanks, Southern. I'm checking into local livestock vets.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

So is a soft log poop considered scours? I always assumed scours was watery.


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

Anything not normal pellets is considered a scour.  There are different levels of scours though so it's always best to be clear on what type of scours you're goat is experiencing.


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

makingshift said:


> In case this is relevant: I've had them indoors for the past few days because it has been cold here. They have spent a few afternoon hours outside in their run.


It's definitely relevant.  That alone could be enough of a change to cause soft scours.  Get the fecal though as it's best to be sure there are not parasites involved before you presume another cause.


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

Also it's better for them in the long run to leave them outside even though you've had a cold snap.  Give them extra bedding if you need to so that they can snuggle down in it.  Make sure they have plenty of hay as eating and ruminating warms their bodies.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

everything Elevan said... 

and although this is NOT relevant... I just want to kiss that little face in your avatar! How did you pick which one to put up? Theu are so cute cute cute!  Nigies!


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Is bringing them indoors bad because of the temperature changes? Or some other reason? (Thank you for being patient with my newbie questions!) I will go ahead and move them outdoors today. Clementine is definitely not feeling well. She looks a little droopy and her bleat sounds weaker than usual. Poor girl. I have a call in to the vet. She just pooped so I put the poop in a clean plastic container because I imagine I'll need to take that in for the fecal.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Something else that just occurred to me: for the first few days I fed them plain all-stock pellets. Then I bought a bag of Dumor sweet goat feed and switched to that. Maybe I should switch back to the plain pellets.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

Elevan would be better to answer this but if she is running a fever you may want to keep her in since you have had her in. Do you know how to take a temp? Good job on saving the fecal. Keep it refrigerated.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

Sudden change in feed can cause scours and rumin upset. Feed should be changed very gradually.  Also over feeding pellets can cause issues too. At their age I imagine 1/4 cup would be all they need. How much are they getting?


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Aaaaaaah! I should have known not to switch the feed so quickly. They are getting about half a cup a day apiece. At this point should I withhold all grains and just leave them on hay for a day or two? I'm going to go learn how to take her temperature and do that. I have some probiotics on hand so maybe I should try that, too.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

Yes hay would be best. Withholding feed is smart. 
There is a goat vitals page.... I think it is a _sticky_ or on Elevans profile. It is still a good idea to take in the fecal!


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Thanks! I'm taking the fecal to the vet now.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 27, 2013)

Here's my two cents.
Getting a fecal done is always a good idea.
Any dietary change can cause loose stools with some animals.  Some but not all.
We dam raise our kids and we often see soft stools for a few days as they start to eat solid food.  Even though it is not something we do, it is still a dietary change they make on their own.
When you wean, you sometimes see soft stools for a few days.
I would not with hold feed at this point myself.  If I had 7 week old kids that I was weaning I would feed calf starter.  But, whatever you do, stick with it and stop making changes.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 27, 2013)

The only kids we bring in the house, is ones that are born when it is cold.  And, that is to make sure they get dry.
They don't need to be in the house.  We got in the teens here the other night.  All of mine slept in the yard.  They didn't even go in the house. Now, if it is cold and windy, they go in the house.  Or if it's raining they go in the house.  But, mine do not mind the cold.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Update: She had coccidia and stongyles!! They gave me two dewormers (for both goats) and I already treated them. Thank you guys so much for the timely advice today. Southernbychoice, a special thank you for your first response in which you gave me such a STRONG recommendation to get the fecal done. I am more of a wait-and-see person and probably wouldn't have jumped to the vet option so quickly.

Thanks so much to everyone who responded.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

I am so glad you didn't wait! 
You are going to be a great goat owner. 
You caught this right away and knew it couldn't be good!  Like Elevan and One Fine Acre said.. feed can throw things off a bit too but considering they are young and you just got them it is always better to be safe than sorry!
Always a good idea to call the breeder and let them know too, as a courtesy not an accusation.
What course of treatment did the vet prescribe?


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> You are going to be a great goat owner.?



Thanks. I needed to hear that. It's a steeper learning curve than chickens and ducks, that's for sure! They gave me syringes of two meds, one labelled "M" and one "P". I can't remember their full names! 

Do y'all think I can continue feeding grains, then? Should I continue with the sweet feed or switch back to the all-stock pellets or mix them?


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

Keep doing what you are but with the feed be gradual in the change. IMO loose stool  is a hay only day or two... depending on the cause.
*You do want to know exactly what was given.*
This way when you do a recheck on the fecal you can see how well the dewormer worked.
The cocci med... there are different kinds and only one I know of that is given once is Toltrazuril. So something is off here. Normally you would retreat for a wormload, depending on the EPG counts, in another 10 days. 
Cocci treatments, other than the one above- as far as I know of- are generally 5 day treatments.
Was this a goat vet? I ask because many horse and or cattle vets are not great with goats. Just sayin.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

I called the vet and they gave us Panacure paste and Marquis paste. The Marquis is the toltrazuril you mentioned so I think that is good. The other was for the strongyle worms. They asked me to bring in another fecal sample in 10-14 days to recheck. My usual vet (dog/cat) doesn't treat goats so I went to a livestock vet that does horses, cows, and other livestock (including goats). I don't know if they specialize in goats. We saw dogs and horses there today. I'm going to ask around to see if there is a goat specialist in the area.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

Sounds good. The Marquis paste is a horse product, a lot of goat vets use Co-rid and Di-methox for cocci but the Toltrazuril is the way to go. DonnaBelle I believe posted this and it is a really effective treatment. I've seen too many struggle with the Co-rid and the Di-methox.... glad you got the Marquis paste. We have used the Toltrazuril on new kids that we are bringing in... they go into a 30 day quarantine so they don't dump cocci on my land as well as worms. 
Panacur is _Fenbendazole_... also called Safeguard. This is a dewormer you should just have on hand. There is paste and also a liquid form that says for goats on it. Sounds like they may be good with goats... that is always a plus. Building a good relationship with a vet is really important.
Well you are well on your way to getting them all parasite free! YAY!


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

I've just caught myself up on this thread.  Glad you took in a fecal!

In answer to your question on them being brought in and why it's a bad idea...most of us keep our houses at least a 20-30 degree difference than the outside temperature in winter.  That is an extreme temperature shift, much more so than would normally happen with a cold snap outside.  This can lead to stress related parasite blooms and sometimes lung / upper respiratory infections.

Here is the goat vitals link that Southern mentioned:  http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/goat-vitals.14/

Definitely get that repeat fecal done in 10-14 days.  Fenbendazole (Panacur) is one of the drugs that tend to have a problem with parasite resistance buildup.  That may or may not be the case in your area, but if it is then you'll want to repeat the de-worming with a different de-wormer...jmho.

As a new goat owner I would highly suggest that you either read through my goat articles (articles at the top of the page...then click on goats) or consider purchasing my eBook (it is sold through the BYC store).  The articles are excerpts from the book.  You'll find the link to the eBook in my signature below.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

Elevan- thank you for that info. I'll definitely check out your articles. I moved the goats outdoors- they have a small, secure run and a doghouse full of hay. We are working on a bigger (20x50') run but that requires that we work on fencing. 

I have a feeling that in our mild climate (Austin, TX) we will have a lot of trouble with parasites. I have some reading and research to do about that. I want to have a plan. I'm interested in learning more about the herbal dewormers, too. I read about those a little bit at the Fias Co Farms site.


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

IMHO herbal dewomers are best used as a preventative, so if you start them when you have a clean fecal then you may be good.  Make sure you do regular fecals to check the effectiveness of anything herbal that you use.  You're right that your climate will make for easy parasite infestations.  But don't let that discourage you.  Practice good herd management and you'll do fine.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 27, 2013)

No one else has mentioned this so I will now.  The strongyle type roundworms are not bad to deal with.  Barberpole worms are the worms that cause goats the most problems.  So, don't be too concerned about the strongyles.

You did not mention that the vet told you the "load" of either the coccidia or strongyle worms.   Southern can tell you more about the Mcmasters test for worms that give you an Eggs per Gram count.  We do fecals here ourselves, but not Mcmasters.  If we start to see worm eggs or coccidia when we do fecals we will collect samples and take to the Rollins lab in Raleigh.  I'm very lucky to live 10 miles from a state university with a vet school and large livestock program.  Plus, the Rollins lab is with the Dept of Agriculture.  So, I can get a McMasters float for $10.  If you can't learn to do these yourself, you may want to see if you can find a place that can.

I had McMaster's done on 17 animals (over 6 months old) this summer.  We had no barberpoles (knock on wood) only strongyles like you.  We had a number of animals with 0 EPG, some with 25, 50, and 100 EPG.  We had one animal with 250 EPG, and one with 500 EPG.  Do you know how many I wormed?  I didn't worm any of them.  My vet gives 500 EPG as the threshold, but most other people say more like 1000 EPG.   And the reason why you don't and everyone else will confirm, is that excess worming can lead to drug resistant worms.  Oh and by the way, the doe with the 500 EPG count was down to 100 EPG a few weeks ago.

Now for coccidia. That's a different story.  It kills young goats all the time. We lost our first kid this summer (out of 30 we have bred since we started this 4 years ago) and it was coccidiosis confirmed by Rollins.  And this kid had no symptoms, and we give preventative treatment to ours with di-methox. 

When we got our Mcmasters done they also look for coccidia. You get coccidia on a 0-5 scale.  0 being 0, 1 being "rare", 2 is "few", 3 being.... I don't remember all and I don't have it in front of me but 5 would be very bad.  Out of the 17 we had  mostly 0, a few 1's and one animal had a 2.  Again, we didn't do anything because these animals are all over 6 months old and I think it would be unusual to not have any.  When they get older, they build  a resistance.

I honestly think the soft poo you saw was still likely to be dietary.  But, anytime we have a kid with soft poo, we immediately treat for coccidia because you do not fool around with that.

I think  your goats are going to be fine.
I think I rambled a little with this post.


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

OneFineAcre- thank you! That was really informative and makes perfect sense to me. They did not tell me anything about the parasite load. Next time (in two weeks) I will definitely ask. I hope they will give me that info- my experience with doctors/vets/experts is that sometimes they are not too keen on having patients/customers who want to be educated.

I have to say that I'm pretty excited about everything I am learning.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

*Great Post One Fine Acre!*

Yes, you will hear DO NOT DEWORM til 1000 EPG Count. A practice that I agree with AND disagree with. Most of the research is done on meat goats... dairy goats and fiber goats are not meat goats! Meat goats generally are moved throughout the land and usually weigh a minimum of 110 lbs for does and up to 350lbs for bucks. My Nigerians are between 45-80 lbs. They are dairy, not meat. Management styles are also typically different. We have meat goats and dairy goats and I really believe the threshold for parasite load in a dairy goat is less. Dairy goats are producing milk, that lactating doe can stress more easily.
The idea of don't worry about other worms... it's the barberpole that is the problem is again based on the meat goat production basis and this is what is preched. The barberpole is a bloodsucker causing anemia and eventual death, so it is a big problem. However I disagree with the idea that never deworm for tapeworm or roundworms etc or non barberpole worms, that is commonly reiterated by many researchers in the goat world as well as many goat keepers. * Worms (intestinal parasites) no matter what kind are still robbing the animal of nutrients.* Knowing when to deworm is important. Overuse of dewormers is a really bad idea. Knowing your herd and understanding each individual animal is key. Many use the "eyelid" check method... few are trained in FAMACHA don't use the method properly don't have the color chart and don't know it is only good for the barberpole worm. 
We do not dry lot, but our animals are on the land, yet we have excellent parasite resistance.  We have lespedeza that grows wild here, lots of pines, acorns etc. high in tannins and therefore "coat" the parasite making it impossible to feed and reproduce yet it is not really an anthelmintic. We also practice strict quarantine protocol. 
The meat goat adults coming in have been far more difficult to deal with, yet once cleaned up they have been no problem. Like OFA said sometimes the count will go down all by itself, but much of that is from management practices. That can be dry-lotting  or constant moving of the herd  so they are not reinfecting themselves.
Adult goats occasionally may show an oocyst, not a big deal... like OFA said, it is the young kids that are most susceptible to cocci and it is a silent killer.
We acquired a doeling recently 12 wks... ran fecal the day she came here 0 epg- 17 cocci... we waited another week... she is still in quarantine- cocci went up.. we treated with the toltrazuril. No way I'm putting her with my herd and dumping cocci all over my fields. 
Good practice to always run a fecal on any new animal and then repeat 10-14 days later. We usually will take a fecal home before the purchase of any goat and see what we will be bringing home. 
You will learn to love poop!


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## elevan (Nov 27, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> *Knowing your herd and understanding each individual animal is key.* Many use the "eyelid" check method... few are trained in FAMACHA don't use the method properly don't have the color chart and don't know it is only good for the barberpole worm.


I agree with this 1,000%  The eyelid method is only as good as the person doing it...and if you're not FAMACHA trained you really don't know what you're doing since you don't have the color chart to compare to.  And it is ONLY good for the barberpole worm.  That first statement that I bolded is really key when it comes to goats (or any animal really).


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 27, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> *Great Post One Fine Acre!*
> 
> Yes, you will hear DO NOT DEWORM til 1000 EPG Count. A practice that I agree with AND disagree with. Most of the research is done on meat goats... dairy goats and fiber goats are not meat goats! Meat goats generally are moved throughout the land and usually weigh a minimum of 110 lbs for does and up to 350lbs for bucks. My Nigerians are between 45-80 lbs. They are dairy, not meat. Management styles are also typically different. We have meat goats and dairy goats and I really believe the threshold for parasite load in a dairy goat is less. Dairy goats are producing milk, that lactating doe can stress more easily.
> The idea of don't worry about other worms... it's the barberpole that is the problem is again based on the meat goat production basis and this is what is preched. The barberpole is a bloodsucker causing anemia and eventual death, so it is a big problem. However I disagree with the idea that never deworm for tapeworm or roundworms etc or non barberpole worms, that is commonly reiterated by many researchers in the goat world as well as many goat keepers. * Worms (intestinal parasites) no matter what kind are still robbing the animal of nutrients.* Knowing when to deworm is important. Overuse of dewormers is a really bad idea. Knowing your herd and understanding each individual animal is key. Many use the "eyelid" check method... few are trained in FAMACHA don't use the method properly don't have the color chart and don't know it is only good for the barberpole worm.
> ...


 
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that you don't worry about anything but barberpoles, but I know you know that.

In fact, I think you would worm at a lower level for roundworms than barberpoles regardless if meat or dairy.

But, I've had a doe with a 750 EPG strongyle count who was in her last month of gestation.  A month after she kidded she was 150 EPG.

Always a good idea to quarantine a new animal, but if you have a mud puddle in your field in the summer time, you have cocci.

And Southern is correct, you will love to love poop.  But, she loves it more than I do.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 27, 2013)

Sorry OFA - No, I didn't mean to imply you feel that way.

Also just a couple of things here...
1)  the goat notes e-book by Elevan - I would strongly recommend it. She has poured countless hours into her articles and is very knowledgeable. Well worth it. 

2) finding your way in a management style takes time and there is not "one" right or perfect way. Always be flexible and willing to make changes along your journey. Sometimes you may need to change things if only temporarily due to weather issues, ground issues, parasite issues etc. 

Also one last thing... goats are addictive. I am not kidding.
No pun intended. 

Yes OFA I love poop... been looking at it for 35 years! at least goat poop isn't nasty. Dog poop... now that is another story


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

The only way I was able to have those goats indoors the last week is because their poop wasn't gross. Until it was.  Truly, it is the least gross poop I have encountered and I've seen lots of poop. (I have three children after all.) 

My goaties are outdoors in their doghouse tonight. I've already checked on them three times. They seem fine even though it is cold out. I know, I know. They are GOATS. I hope they aren't too addictive because I really don't need more than two! (Chickens are the gateway farm animal.)


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 27, 2013)

makingshift said:


> The only way I was able to have those goats indoors the last week is because their poop wasn't gross. Until it was.  Truly, it is the least gross poop I have encountered and I've seen lots of poop. (I have three children after all.)
> 
> My goaties are outdoors in their doghouse tonight. I've already checked on them three times. They seem fine even though it is cold out. I know, I know. They are GOATS. I hope they aren't too addictive because I really don't need more than two! (Chickens are the gateway farm animal.)


 
We started with 3 doelings.  2 were 8 weeks old, and one 12 weeks old.  Then we got a buckling when they were about a year and a half old.  Then we got another buckling.
We had 30 this summer, until we re-homed 13 and we are holding steady now at 17.  But......
We are breeding 10 does this fall.....


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## makingshift (Nov 27, 2013)

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!


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## elevan (Nov 28, 2013)




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## Jered Norris (Nov 29, 2013)

They probably shouldn't be eating solid food until they are at least 3 to 5 months old. It can ruin their digestive tract and have you with a goat that doesn't process it's food very well. If they don't eat milk try getting a 15cc drench gun and filling it up with regular yogurt with a bit of molasses mixed in it and feeding it to them at least two times a day. Sweet feed alone has a tendency to make a goat's digestive tract get overloaded and kill all the bacteria in it which is needed for digestion.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 29, 2013)

Jered Norris said:


> They probably shouldn't be eating solid food until they are at least 3 to 5 months old. It can ruin their digestive tract and have you with a goat that doesn't process it's food very well. If they don't eat milk try getting a 15cc drench gun and filling it up with regular yogurt with a bit of molasses mixed in it and feeding it to them at least two times a day. Sweet feed alone has a tendency to make a goat's digestive tract get overloaded and kill all the bacteria in it which is needed for digestion.



Jered,
First off, welcome to the forum.  
But, what you wrote about that they shouldn't be eating solid food until they are 3 to 5 months old is not correct. Dam raised kids will start to eat solid food at a month old.  Many people completely wean by 2 months old, some earlier than that.


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## OneFineAcre (Nov 29, 2013)

makingshift said:


> The only way I was able to have those goats indoors the last week is because their poop wasn't gross. Until it was.  Truly, it is the least gross poop I have encountered and I've seen lots of poop. (I have three children after all.)
> 
> My goaties are outdoors in their doghouse tonight. I've already checked on them three times. They seem fine even though it is cold out. I know, I know. They are GOATS. I hope they aren't too addictive because I really don't need more than two! (Chickens are the gateway farm animal.)



Goat poop is the least gross poop you will encounter until they do it in the back seat of your car with your 9 yo daughter holding them.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 29, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:


> Jered,
> First off, welcome to the forum.
> But, what you wrote about that they shouldn't be eating solid food until they are 3 to 5 months old is not correct. Dam raised kids will start to eat solid food at a month old.  Many people completely wean by 2 months old, some earlier than that.



X 2 ... our dam raised kids nibble hay at 3 weeks and _"mouth"_ feed. By 5 weeks they are eating very well while still running in for a quick suckle from mom. These are dwarfs... our larger full size goats take a little longer but are generally fully weaned between 90-120 days, eating hay and some feed at weeks old.
Of course there is always some variance but that is average.


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