# Mini nubians: anyone have them?



## Scooby308 (Oct 10, 2015)

Been looking for mini nubians F4 and up.  Not many in this neck of the woods. I've been visiting farms with NDs and Nubians and want to give the minis a try. Anyone here have experience with the mini? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts. Ideally breeding for polled genetics would be preferred. 


Thanks


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## babsbag (Oct 10, 2015)

I believe @Southern by choice breeds some mini Nubians. Let's see if she sees this and weighs in on it.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 10, 2015)

We do all the above.
There are some things to consider.
First if you want F-4's what is your purpose?
Are you looking at F-4's that are still in the Experimental breeding stage or Americans or Purebred?

Polled genetics are fine however for a good breeding program if you want to keep polled in them you will need to have considerable horned (disbudded) to go anywhere with it.

Believe me this is a big deal here as some of our top girls that I would love to breed to one of my bucks I can't and it also keeps me from retaining some animals I want because of too many polled. Disbudding is easy and you are not limited. I do however like having polled genetics.

I really do Miniature Lamanchas but have bred our Nubian for mini's and have repeated this year. The issue (with either breed) is this...
- Many focus so much on the ears and getting to the correct ears and face structure than the real part of the dairy goat- that udder is lacking in many.
- Ears don't make milk!

There are many well known mini breeders and for many that don't want to work their way up it may be a good option. On the flip side... we see many mini's that are F-4's some even meet the American status but look hard at that udder.
We see many that have poor teat placement, weak attachments, poor escutcheons etc.  Teat size can be an issue, many mini's have issues with teat placement to the outside ( or East West I call it lol) 

We have looked at quite a few to bring into our program and so far we haven't found much. Many SHOULD be great but then we see what is being produced (when looking at a buck) and we keep passing.

Look for a breeder that has the focus on the dairy part of the goat not ears and face or color- whatever the "main" focus is on achieving the true mini "look".  There are some that will go "backwards" to accomplish the goals of the dairy goat! 
Personally I like working with the f-1 , f-2  and f-3. If it is a really nice breeding you can achieve the American by f-3. I like this because I can really pick some of the finest genetics from the different breeds and breed a fantastic goat.  Of course that is where all the well known large mini breeders all started from too.

 So far I have been very pleased with what we have accomplished. 

Also look for those testing for G6S. We will be adding that in this year for our mini's. Many say they are testing but cannot produce any documentation.

I can tell you cost wise- know your market. 

BTW- you haven't been on in a long time!


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## Scooby308 (Oct 10, 2015)

Southern, life happened again. Slow contractors and a legal battle really screwed up the spring plans. That and the Noah style rain this spring/summer have truly put a "damper" on things. Had 3 top bar hives built and then sold this spring. 2 chicken tractors built and sitting in storage as we watched spring turn to summer and wait for legal matters to run their course. 

I did take advice given here and hit several farms in the try state area. I must confess that none were what I would call impressive with their standards. Some were good dairies but all were rather lenient on their breeding standards. Some had real issues others not so much. 

What I learned is i have no doubt I can raise goats. I also learned I want good stock to start with. So many have just started with poor stock and tried to breed it into good stock. That just doesn't work out too well. 

Last fall I was sure that NDs were what I wanted until I hit a. couple of places with nubians. so I started looking into the mini nubs. I'm pretty sure that is the way I want to go this spring. I've been looking and can't find to awful many breeders anywhere near KY. I'm willing to travel. I want good dairy goats that meet the breed standards and whose progeny can be registered as purebreed. Polled is just a desired trait I am seeking. I was wondering if any had polled lines. 

If everything goes to plan, final fencing for rotational grazing starts in December.  Oh the joys of fencing in winter. We are waiting for the guy across the road to decide if he wants to sale a 10+ acre soybean field. If so that will become a hayfield. That means larger lots for grazing on this side!  

Is it possible to get the desired dairy and breed standards in F4? I hope so! 

Thanks for the info.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 10, 2015)

_From the MDGA-
Experimentals are 1st and 2nd gens. (F1, F2) Americans are 3rd-5th gen. (F3, F4, F5)* if they conform to breed standards,* and* purebreds are 6th gens. and up if they conform to breed standards.*_

It could be a very great place for you to start since you are new to goats. Eventually linear appraisals will be in the mini's future. 
They do have milktesting also-  http://www.miniaturedairygoats.net/milk_testing.html

That is why I like picking my foundation stock I can pick each animal for those traits I want. 
The mini's are fast growing BUT there is a lot of resentment with them. It is similar to what the Nigerian Breeders went through... the Standard breeders had a disdain and did not consider them "real" dairy goats. Nigie breeders however persevered and fought hard through great breeding etc to pioneer through and become "legitimate" dairy goats. Yet many Standard breeders will still chuckle (behind the scenes) and say they are not.  
The Nigie breeders sometimes treat the mini breeders the same as they were treated   and the many Standard breeders really hate the fact that people are breeding standards to Nigies for mini's.


We like all 3! Makes sense for us to have all 3 considering we are doing minis but I have to say I love my Standards just as much as I love my smaller goats. My DD will always have Nigies- if it were just me I'd have Standards and mini's. But for Bucks... I LOVE Nigie bucks! Just love them!

I am sure you will love your mini's! Truth is you will love whatever breed or "size" goat ... Goats are just wonderful!


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## Scooby308 (Oct 10, 2015)

I'd almost go standard Nubians, but I really like something a tad smaller and the feed to milk conversion. To say I've been underwelmed by what I've seen on some farms as to treatment from worming to feed to housing makes me shake my head. Some do go all out for housing but skimp on feed. Others turn out their herd like cattle to graze with minimal shelter. I went to one farm where the guy said he loses 5-6 a year. A decent shelter and feed would probably have cut that to zero. 

My farm is going to be my life. I want it to go well. Even with all the rain this year, I actually made $3000 on good quality hay for show horses. Not planning on making a killing off of my goats, but to turn a profit after 3-4 years or break even would be fine. The milk itself will help our budget. I also have two ladies wanting to buy milk for soap making. Not to mention I barter with the local Amish. 

Just want to start if right so little adjustment is needed inthe future as opposed to complete herd replacement.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 10, 2015)

Much of it does depend on starting with HEALTHY stock. But after that  the management is up to you.

Some goats we have acquired were raised "heavily managed" and it is hard for them to adjust to eating off the land. Yes we still give hay and feed ( depending on goat and whether they are lactating or not) but we do not pump full of feed nor dump our milk back to our goats.  We do however manage and control what they eat off the land as well as hay because we want consistency in our milk and the taste of it.
For goats we did not breed and raise on our land it takes about a year for us to get them to adapt.  

As far as health- Absolutely. Many just do not want to face the truth of how important clean herd yearly testing is. CL is zoonotic and so is Johnes yet many breeders as well as some vets ( I believe many are just behind on the methods of testing and all the developments over the years). The list of zoonotic diseases is pretty long. 

Which brings me to your mention of milk... Because many of these diseases can be transmitted to humans through milk it can have serious consequences for the producer. 
Know your laws!

*Kentucky*
_Kentucky law regarding raw dairy products only pertains to unpasteurized goat milk, which requires a doctor's prescription.

Kentucky doesn't have laws that address raw cow milk, so the state imposes the federal restrictions making raw milk sales illegal.

Kentucky law doesn't address herdshares, either, prompting some farms to offer them. While not ostensibly legal or illegal, the Kentucky Milk Safety Branch has "from time-to-time" visited these farms and passed out literature on the risks, said Lewis Ramsey, manager of Kentucky Milk Safety Branch._


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## Scooby308 (Oct 11, 2015)

An extension officer, who shall remain nameless, has told me that as long as when sold the buyer is told, "not for human consumption" you are ok. KY representative Thomas Massive is doing a lot for the state on the Federal level to help small farmers. There was an attempt by the big dairy industry to end the sale of all raw dairy products. Right now raw for human consumption is the law. But there is a movement to strike that. What kills me is that human breast milk can be sold on craigslist with no restriction or inspection!!! Cause I'd want a meth head playing wetnurse to my baby. Forgot to mention that there is a pig farm 10 miles or so away. He's offered a pig in trade depending on the gallons of milk I could deliver. Is have to pretty much have a few cows to meet that production. 

It is scary how many herds are not tested for anything. I even had one Nubian owner say he thought G6S was no big deal. Most around here are selling goats as pets or they go to the stockyards. There are a few serious goaters but not many. I liken it to horse farming when I was a kid. We had a stable running 30-50 show horses at a time. It was a very time and labor intensive business so greatcare was provided. Then you had the folks that wanted a horse, so they bought one and turned it out in a field to basically be yard art. There is a Nubian breeder about 4 hours from here that actually runs a dairy and her farm looks promising. I'm trying to get to her farm before Christmas.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

I have been looking for a Nubian buck to bring in so my ONE Nubian doe can give us some PB Nubian doelings...  "Ruby" is getting older and has not only great genetics but she is truly the most amazing goat I have ever owned.
What is so funny about this is I am a Lamancha girl through and through never liked the long ears and Roman nose. We got her for my one DD. You know- everyone should have their own goat.
But Ruby- well - she is my heart. I love this goat so much that it actually stresses me to think about her getting older. She is like one of the dogs to me. 
Anyway I want to retain daughters from her  for 2 years of kidding but am having an awful time finding a buck.

I found one farm in another state- G6S, Cae, CL testing and do more of forage based rearing BUT no Johnes testing. But then I saw they had all their kids in a paddock- no biggy- until I saw the calf in with them.  Well that strikes that. 86% of cattle farms have Johnes and kids generally contract Johnes as kids but it doesn't show up til 18 months or later... no way.

My search continues.  
Don't get discouraged, there really are great goats everywhere!


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## Scooby308 (Oct 11, 2015)

There is a closed group on Facebook for mini nubians. I just got in it today. There are a few farms in Virginia and Tennessee on there that I'm checking into that I hadn't seen before. Looks like a hodge podge of genetics but some post pics of the udders and lineage.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

There are many people now getting into the mini's which I think is great! Some are just throwing a standard and a nigie together, some are actually very focused. Sometimes those "Hodge Podge" genetics are the best thing to do. There is a lot of line breeding in goats and that is fine but at the same time taking very different lines that have great qualities is better.

I know you want to start with the Americans but food for thought.... you haven't had goats and haven't been breeding for years so what happens when you start breeding and you see something not right? 

I don't mean that snide in anyway ...Knowing the goats and strengths etc from earlier generations plays a big part in this. Often you need to retain goats to see what is the buck bringing to the table? What about the doe?  If you have people you know and can gather great info from that buy your goats that is very beneficial. 

Like I said there is alot of focus on getting to the "look". This year I looked at an f-4... long story short yep conforms to the breed standard BUT when I started searching the offspring of the buck I found doe after doe with E/W teats, small teats, no medial, poor attachments. But they look pretty.   I do have my eye on another buck and might be doing a trade ... not sure yet but if I don't get "gopher ears" on my mini's for awhile yet I am ok with that. 

I am in a similar situation as you. I retained my F-1 Mini Nubian buck... I listed him for a short time but I really like him and want to keep him... problem is I have nothing to breed him with. I keep looking for some nice Mini Nubian does but having a hard time finding them. I know they are out there... somewhere. LOL


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 11, 2015)

I met a lady in Shelby NC that breeds mini Nubians exclusively
I don't know too much about the Nubian side of the equation but I know she was using top notch Nigerian bucks Cesar Villa, Little Tots Estate and J-Nels
I can't think of the name but I think she follows our farm Face Book page
I'll see if I can find her name
She is in western NC somewhere


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> I met a lady in Shelby NC that breeds mini Nubians exclusively
> I don't know too much about the Nubian side of the equation but I know she was using top notch Nigerian bucks Cesar Villa, Little Tots Estate and J-Nels
> I can't think of the name but I think she follows our farm Face Book page
> I'll see if I can find her name
> She is in western NC somewhere


That would be great.  I have a J-Nels/In the Reds doe! Just beautiful!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

@OneFineAcre -Are you talking about Gingertop? Or Tanbrit?


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## Scooby308 (Oct 11, 2015)

Oh I know, even the best stock can throw duds. Just wanting to get a foot in the door the best way as opposed to starting off with bad traits/genetics.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

Green Gables! 
Great goats & great resource!

http://www.greengablesmininubians.com/index.html


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 11, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> @OneFineAcre -Are you talking about Gingertop? Or Tanbrit?


Gingertop
That's it
Red head
I remembered I tagged you on here with her name after I met her
I didn't know if you knew her or not
She's really nice of course I may just think that because she was very complimentary towards my animals 
I don't know that much about her program I don't do mini's but she showed me some pics of her animals and they looked good
I think she is a few years in to breeding though
I remember she said she was selling her Nigerians and Nubians at this point and not doing F1's any more ( don't know if that's a good idea though)
Like I said I don't know that much about the stock she used on the Nubian side but I know she certainly had acces to really good Nubians in that area of the state


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> Gingertop
> That's it
> Red head
> I remembered I tagged you on here with her name after I met her
> ...



Yes I did contact her. She has really changed out alot of her herd, brought in some new animals too.  She looked at our buck and loved the genetics but he is an F-1 and that would be taking her backwards. I am still looking at one of her doelings maybe next year. If we keep the buckling. He is really nice and I will keep him before I would just toss him out to someone who is not trying to do a breeding program. Just don't want him used for a season and then sold and resold etc. You know what I mean. I do laugh though... mini nubes aren't my focus but I figure I will keep those options open... have a friend that has a friend that has a friend... so I should find a doe for him.


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## Scooby308 (Oct 11, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Green Gables!
> Great goats & great resource!
> 
> http://www.greengablesmininubians.com/index.html




Yup, darn them for living so far away. The wife would go South to let me look at goats later in the year, but going North in winter...not so much. It is an incredible site. They make disbudding look so easy.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 11, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes I did contact her. She has really changed out alot of her herd, brought in some new animals too.  She looked at our buck and loved the genetics but he is an F-1 and that would be taking her backwards. I am still looking at one of her doelings maybe next year. If we keep the buckling. He is really nice and I will keep him before I would just toss him out to someone who is not trying to do a breeding program. Just don't want him used for a season and then sold and resold etc. You know what I mean. I do laugh though... mini nubes aren't my focus but I figure I will keep those options open... have a friend that has a friend that has a friend... so I should find a doe for him.


Did I tag you or did you see the post I put on here about the NCDGBA meeting we had with the program on DHIR?
The presenter was Co-char of ADGA performance comitee
Lamamcha breeder from VA
Gabar Torr farm ( not sure of the spelling I think that's Gaelic)
She breeds most of her FF's to Nigerians for mini's
She has done 305 day milk testing for years 
Of course a FF hasn't been tested yet but she doesn't have any poor animals


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## Southern by choice (Oct 11, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> Did I tag you or did you see the post I put on here about the NCDGBA meeting we had with the program on DHIR?
> The presenter was Co-char of ADGA performance comitee
> Lamamcha breeder from VA
> Gabar Torr farm ( not sure of the spelling I think that's Gaelic)
> ...


I don't think I saw that but thank you. It would be great to get a doeling and I like F-1's. 
Still think that 50/50 is the best   has some really good milk and nice butterfat from the Nigies! 
I am a lost cause (don't laugh OFA )  I don't think I could ever just have "one" breed.


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