# NEW method to disbud a baby goat



## DonnaBelle (Jul 29, 2015)

I have my latest copy of Caprine News.  In it is a new method of disbudding baby goats.  A serum of extract of cloves is injected into the buds at about 5 days of age.  There was a trial done, with one side injected, the other not.  Very successful trial done.  Very interesting.  Wouldn't it be wonderful if that would work?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25992247

The link to an article I looked up.

DonnaBelle


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## Latestarter (Jul 29, 2015)

That is very interesting... wonder if it's "available" yet? Gotta be less painful/stressful for the goat kid as well as the owner...


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## HeidiO (Jul 29, 2015)

So awesome! I wish this was an option 6 months ago.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 30, 2015)

Very interesting! 

Thanks for sharing @DonnaBelle !


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## Hens and Roos (Aug 1, 2015)

This would be great!


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## germanchickTX (Aug 15, 2015)

Hi there!
I so wish this would have been available to Rosie and Goose, my first pair of dairy/meat cross bottle babies.
I read about the regular disbudding with the hot iron with 4 to 10 days of age. But here in my area the main business is commercial goats, even with 4-H, and this service is not available. All the vets here told me to bring them in with 3-4 weeks of age. So when I brought them to the vet, he told me that it would be very unlikely to get scurs with his method. I wasn't even asked if I would want to watch. Got my kids back with a huge bandage around head and throat that severly inhibited their breathing and sucking, with the comment to take it off after 3 days. Well, I left it on longer, also because the gauze underneath had slipped some. Huge horrible piece of work to get the bandage off, it was badly stuck; lots of soaking, screaming kids and bleeding. I think the vet scooped the horn buds, they hade huge wounds, but luckily no opening into the sinus cavity.
Now guess what: they are 3 months old now and both are getting a scur on each bud spot!
Needless to say, I won't be using this vet anymore, in future I rather drive 2 hrs for disbudding or check into this new treatment!
(The black stuff on the pic is bloodstop!)


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## HeidiO (Aug 16, 2015)

I'm wondering if this would work for scurs.  My boys have some of the tiny ones that keep popping off, the skin underneath looks like a horn bud when they fall off.  It would be awesome to inject some in there and not have another issue.


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## lkmartin1230 (Oct 7, 2015)

This would be wonderful. I have never had to disbud and I honestly don't want to. I would much rather have to inject them with that than have to burn their little baby heads.


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 26, 2015)

This study was performed to evaluate the efficacy of injection of essential oil of _Eugenia caryophyllata_ in the kid horn buds, as a new chemical technique for disbudding. Five-day-old healthy goat kids from both sexes (n = 16) were divided randomly into 4 equal groups. In groups 1, 2 and 3, 0.2 mL of clove essence and in group 4 (control) 0.2 mL of normal saline was injected into the left horn bud of goat kids. Right horn bud in all kids was considered to ensure that they are horned. During the study, the rate of horn growth were evaluated in determined time intervals between groups 1 and 4. Tissue samples were taken from right and left horn bud in groups 2 and 3, at five and ten days after clove essence injection, for microscopic study. The results of the study showed that the clove essence stopped horn growth, whereas there was no significant difference in horn growth rate between left and right horns after injection of normal saline, in group 4. Histopathological study showed that injection of clove essence caused complete necrosis of epidermis and underlying dermis with collagenolysis in horn bud tissues, 5 days after injection and then progress in healing process was observed after 10 days. According to the results of this study, it can be concluded that the injection of clove essence is an effective method to stop horn growth without any undesirable effects on clinical parameters in goat kids.

*Key Words: *Clove essence, Disbudding, Goat kid
Go to:
*Introduction*
Horns are the pairs of hard, bone like permanent growths projecting from the heads of certain mammals, such as goat, consisting of a bony core covered with a sheath of keratinous material.1 In the wild, horns play an important role as natural weapons that provide protection to animals against predators.2 Horns have no useful function in a domestic goat.3 Animals with horns are more apt to fight with one another or be aggressive toward people. The horned animals are more likely to destroy farm facilities and to be entrapped in fences.4Horns occasionally grow in such a manner as to press on soft tissues or obscure vision.3 Some goat breeds cannot be registered or shown until they are dehorned.4

Nowadays depending on age, various techniques of dehorning have been described for small ruminants. These methods include chemical (caustic paste), thermal cautery (hot iron), cutting (sawing), rubber bands or genetic procedures. The risks to the goat and the operator vary with each technique.5 Reduction in milk production, impairment of spermatogenesis, sinusitis and myiasis and loss of social status in the herd are other side effects of dehorning in the mature goat.6,7

Disbudding is usually performed within the first week of life to remove horn buds in young goats.4,8Chemical and thermal methods are commonly used for disbudding in goat kids. Both procedures will destroy the horn cells (disbudding) and prevent growth. However, these methods may have some complications such as injury to the surrounding tissues (skin, frontal bone, brain and eye).9 Disbudding by thermal cauterization induces an acute cortisol elevation and increases the expression of behaviors that indicate stress and pain. Goats appear to be extremely sensitive to pain and may be fractious when retrained.10

Eugenol (4-allyl-2-methoxyphenol) is the main component of oil of cloves _Eugenia caryophyllata _(syn._Syzigium aromaticum_).11 Essential oil extracted from the cloves contains almost 72 to 90% eugenol. Cloves are widely grown in Indonesia, Madagascar and also in other countries like India and Sri Lanka. Eugenol is a natural phenolic compound is present in reasonable amounts in several other spices like basil, cinnamon and bay leaves. Eugenol has been used as a flavoring agent in cosmetics and food products and also plays a role in dentistry as cavity filling cement. Eugenol is said to possess various biological properties like antiviral, antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, _etc_. At low concentrations, it usually acts as an antioxidant and anti-inflammatory agent, whereas at higher concentration, act as a pro-oxidant causing increased generation of tissue-damaging free radicals. It has been reported to possess anti-genotoxic activity.11

Numerous studies have indicated that eugenol is cytotoxic to mouse fibroblast cell line L929,12 rat hepatocytes,13 pulp cells12,14 and oral mucosal fibroblasts15 and osteoblastic cells _in vitro_.16 Eugenol was also found to cause injury to rat oral mucosa membranes _in vivo_.16,17 It is stated that eugenol could decrease growth of various kind of neoplastic cells via induce of apoptosis and inhibition of cell proliferation.18-20

The purpose of this study was to determine the efficacy of injection of essential oil of _E. caryophyllata_ (EC) in kid horn bud, as a new chemical technique for disbudding in goats.

Go to:
*Materials and Methods*
*Preparation of essential oil of E. caryophyllata* *. *Fresh spice (Clove) was bought from a main market in Kerman, Iran. They were milled to fine powder with electric blender. Two hundred gram of the powder mixed with 700 mL distilled water in a clevenger-type apparatus equipped with an electric mantel heater for 3.5 hr. The essential oil was extracted by traditional hydrodistillation method.21,22 After providing the essence, gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GCMS) analysis (Model 17A-GC & QP5000-MS; Shimadzu Kyoto, Japan) was done to identify of essence component.

*Animals. *Five-day-old healthy Raeini goat kids (n =16) from both sexes were divided randomly into four equal groups. In groups 1, 2 and 3, 0.2 mL of clove essence and in group 4 (Control) 0.2 mL of normal saline was injected into the left horn bud of goat kids. Right horn bud in all kids was considered as a normal group, to ensure that they are horned. Groups 1 and 4 were considered for macroscopic study and groups 2 and 3 for microscopic study.

*Macroscopic study.* The speed of horn growth was evaluated by measuring of horn height (distance from base to tip of horn) with a fine caliper. The data of horn height was recorded during two months study and compared statistically, after that; the horn growth was evaluated clinically between the groups for a 12-month study period.

*Microscopic study.* Under local anesthesia with lidocaine hydrochloride 1%, tissue specimens (0.5 cm × 0.5 cm) were taken from right and left horn buds, 5 and 10 days after injection of clove essence in groups 2 and 3, respectively. The samples from the skin bud and underlying tissue were fixed in 10% buffered formalin. The samples were embedded in paraffin, sectioned at 4 μm, and stained with hematoxylin and eosin (H & E) for light microscopy.

*Statistical analysis.* Data analyses were performed using SPSS software (Version 16; SPSS Inc., Chicago, USA). The recorded data of the speed of horn growth were analyzed with repeated measurement analysis of variance for statistical comparison. Significance was set at _p_ < 0.05. The histopathological findings were compared between right and left horns of animals in groups 2 and 3, descriptively.

Go to:
*Results*
The essential oils were found to be rich in eugenol compounds representing 85.04% eugenol, 12.02% aceto-eugenol, and 0.21% dehydrodieugenol of the total oil. The GCMS analysis of the clove essence was presented in Table 1.




Table 1
Component of clove essence identified by gas chromate-graphy/mass spectrometry analysis
All kids used in this study were horned, because their right horns gradually were growing up during the study.

Results of the current study showed that the clove essence completely stopped horn growth in all kids of group 1 (Figs. 1A and 1B), whereas horn growth was observed in left horn of group 4 and there were no significant differences in horn growth rate between left and right horns in this group (Fig. 2).




Fig. 1
Horn growth arrest in the left side; *A)* two months and *B)* 12 months after injection of clove oil essence in the horn bud



Fig. 2
The growth rates of the horn in the right side (Normal), and in the left horn bud after injection of normal saline and clove essence in the kids, during the 2-month study
We did not observe any noticeable changes in horn bud area following injection of normal saline in animals of groups 4, but injection of clove essence in group 1 induced significant changes in horn bud skin region including swelling and redness after 48 hr, then gradually skin necrosis was occurred during week 1 after injection.

The microscopic study of right horns in groups 2 and 3 showed the normal horn bud as a cornified epithelium attached to the bone (Fig. 3). In the left horn of group 2, five days after injection of clove essence, complete necrosis of horn bud with a few neutrophils infiltrated around the necrotic tissues was observed. The epidermis, over the horn buds showed necrosis and ulceration. There was a mild infiltration of neutrophils in the surface of necrotic epidermis. Necrotic tissues and degenerated neutrophils formed scab on the ulcerated area. Underlying dermal tissues revealed necrosis and collagenolysis (Fig. 4).




Fig. 3
The normal horn bud as a cornified epithelium (open arrow) attached to the bone (thin arrow), (H & E, 40×).



Fig. 4
Complete necrosis of the horn bud (thin arrow) associated with mild infiltration of neutrophils (open arrow) after 5 days of clove oil essence injection, (H & E, 100×).
In the left horn of group 3, 10 days after injection of clove essence in horn bud, re-epithelialization started from around the necrotic area and grew under scab and granulation tissues formed in the dermis and healing processes developed (Fig. 5).




Fig. 5.
Re-epithelialization of epidermis (thin arrow) and developing of granulation tissues in the dermis after 10 days of clove oil essence injection in horn bud (open arrow), (H & E, 40×).
Go to:
*Discussion*
Dehorning adult goats is not as easy as dehorning cattle. Because of serious complications following dehorning in adult goat, they are ideally disbudded as infants.23 The prolifrative area at the base of the horn is very much more extensive in young goats than in calves. Thus for successful disbudding a larger area needs to be destroyed and the dehorning of adult goat exposes the very large frontal sinuses at the base of the horn.24 Removal of large horns creates an opening into the frontal sinus that requires bandaging until the wound heals by second intention. Bandage maintenance can be technically difficult and cumbersome for the owners. Sinusitis, miasis, and prolonged healing are complications that may occur when using an open technique. 7,23

Disbudding of goat kids is a problematic procedure. One potential complication of disbudding is abnormal horn regrowth, or scar formation, which must be removed by other dehorning techniques.6

The horn buds grow extremely rapidly in goats and for satisfactory results disbudding should be performed when the kid is two to seven days old.24 Early disbudding of horns in the first few days of life with a hot iron is common, and the preferred practice in goat herds. If goats are not disbudded at an early age and have large horns, hot iron horn removing techniques are not amendable.6 Thermal disbudding in goat kids induces acute pain and stress, high intensity behaviours, and acute cortisol increase. So it is necessary to use anaesthesia/analgesia to avoid pain and stress before administration of disbudding methods.25 Relatively profound sedation or local analgesia can be achieved before dehorning performance. Because of the smaller size of most goats in comparison with other ruminants, and their high sensitivity to local anesthetics and anesthesia medications, it is important to consider the possibility of toxicity when applying analgesia/anesthesia.26 Meningoencephalitis caused by thermal disbudding is one of the tragic diseases in goat kids. Anatomically, the frontal bone of kids, unlike that of calves, is thin and horn buds is relatively large and the frontal sinus is undeveloped. Thermal damage to underlying bone, meninges and brain can results from prolonged or excessive pressure with the hot iron.9,27

Caustic paste disbudding is caused by the chemical burn of underlying tissue. Care has to be taken to prevent paste running onto face and eyes. Caustic paste disbudding causes intense pain from the first minutes after paste application and some behavioral signs of distress still remain at 3 hr after the procedure. The caustic paste is notorious for causing chemical burns on other parts of the goat or on his/her pen mates. To use caustic paste, the farmer must make sure that the kid is kept apart from others, so that it doesn’t rub the chemical on the udder of its mother or the faces of its friends and that it is kept out of the rain so that rain water doesn’t wash the chemical into the goat’s eyes.28

Eugenol is the main component of oil of cloves. It is used as a fragrance and flavoring agent, an insect attractant, and as a topical antiseptic and anti-inflammatory analgesic in dentistry.18 _Eugenia caryophyllata_has been used in traditional public medicine to relieve nasal obstruction and musculoskeletal pain which imply anti-inflammatory activity for the plant.29 Analgesic, anesthetic, spasmolytic and antibacterial effects of EC have been demonstrated by several scientific studies.29,30

Despite the extensive clinical use, eugenol is cytotoxic to various cell types though its mechanism of cytotoxicity has been unknown. Reportedly, eugenol reduced the growth of cells _in vitro_.18 Anpo _et al_. suggested that cytotoxic effect of eugenol can be associated with oxidative DNA damage by its metabilites. They also suggested that eugenol-related compound may act like non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs.18 In several studies, it has been stated that eugenol can inhibit neoplastic cell growth. Okada _et al_. demonstrated that eugenol induced apoptosis in oral tumor cells.19 Gosh _et al._ showed that eugenol could inhibit melanoma growth by inducing apoptosis and cell proliferation arrest.20 Their results showed eugenol is a potent inhibitor growth of melanoma cells, causes significant tumor growth delay, decreases size of tumor and inhibits melanoma invasion and metastasis. Eugenol arrests cells in the S phase of cell cycle, and induces apoptosis, and is not mutagenic.20 It has been shown eugenol is effective to inhibit papillomas.31

In our study horn growth arrest following injection of clove oil essence in horn bud can be attributed to different mechanisms. It seems that existence of eugenol as a main component of clove oil can inhibit proliferation in horn germination cells and induce apoptosis in these cells. Also eugenol may have cytotoxic effect on cells in horn bud and consequently induce cell necrosis, as the histopathological examination in the present study confirmed it. Koger described a suitable and safe method for dehorning in calves including injection of calcium chloride as a necrotizing agent in horn bud.32 An overall success rate of 70% has been achieved in his study. The calves were sedated before injection and injection site were prepared aseptically. He stated that without tranquilization or anesthesia, injection of the necrotizing calcium solutions caused objectionable pain and strong physical restrain was necessary. In the current study, because of anti-inflammatory and analgesic effect of eugenol,18 we did not use local anesthetics and/or sedative drugs before injection and the animals were only physically restrained at the time of injection.

According to the results of this study injection of clove essence can be an effective method to stop horn growth without any undesirable effects on clinical parameters. This technique is easy for the operator and less stressful for the kids.

Go to:
*Acknowledgements*
This research was financially supported by a grant from the Research Council of Shahid Bahonar University of Kerman, Kerman, Iran.

Go to:
*References*
1. Dyce KM, Sack WO, Wensing CJG. Textbook of veterinary anatomy. Philadelphia, USA: Sunders; 1995. pp. 363–364.
2. Al-Sobayi FA. A new simple device for dehorning in small ruminants. Small Rumin Res.2007;67(2):232–234.
3. Greenough PR, Johnson L. The integumentary system. In: Oehme FW, editor. Textbook of large animal surgery. 2nd ed. Baltimore, USA: Williams & Wilkins ; 1988. pp. 180–185.
4. White EC. Caprine dehorning. In: Fubini SL, Ducharmi NG, editors. Farm animal surgery. St. Louis, USA: Elsevier science, Saunders ; 2004. pp. 509–514.
5. Hoffsis G. Surgical (cosmetic) dehorning in cattle. Vet Clin Food Anim. 1995;11:159–169. [PubMed]
6. Hague AB, Hooper RN. Cosmetic dehorning in goats. Vet Surg. 1997;26:332–334. [PubMed]
7. Baird AN. Small ruminant surgery. In: Hendrickson D, editor. Turner & Mcliwraith´s techniques in large animal surgery. 4th ed. Ames, USA: John Wiley & Sons Inc; 2013. pp. 293–296.
8. Balley DE. Sheep and goats. In: Jennings PB, editor. The practice of large animal surgery. Philadelphia, USA: WB Saunders; 1984. pp. 272–276.
9. Thompson KG, Bateman RS, Morris PJ. Cerebral infarction and meningoencephalitis following hot-iron disbudding of goat kids. New Zeal Vet J. 2005;53(5):368–370. [PubMed]
10. Baker JS. Dehorning goats. Bovine Pract. 1981;2:33–39.
11. Jaganathan SK, Supriyanto E. Antiproliferative and molecular mechanism of eugenol-induced apoptosis in cancer cells. Molecules. 2012;17:6290–6304. [PubMed]
12. Hume W. Basic biological sciences effect of eugenol on respiration and division in human pulp, mouse fibro-blasts, and liver cells in vitro. J Dent Res. 1984;63:1262–1265. [PubMed]
13. Thompson D, Constantin-Teodosiu D, Egestad Br, et al. Formation of glutathione conjugates during oxidation of eugenol by microsomal fractions of rat liver and lung. Biochem Pharmacol. 1990;39:1587–1595. [PubMed]
14. Kasugai S, Hasegawa N, Ogura H. Application of the MTT colorimetric assay to measure cytotoxic effects of phenolic compounds on established rat dental pulp cells. J Dent Res. 1991;70:127–130. [PubMed]
15. Jeng J, Hahn L, Lu E, et al. Eugenol triggers different pathobiological effects on human oral mucosal fibroblasts. J Dent Res. 1994;73:1050–1055. [PubMed]
16. Ho YC, Huang FM, Chang YC. Mechanisms of cyto-toxicity of eugenol in human osteoblastic cells in vitro. Int Endod J. 2006;39:389–393. [PubMed]
17. Kozam G, Mantell GM. The effect of eugenol on oral mucous membranes. J Dent Res. 1978;57:954–957. [PubMed]
18. Anpo M, Shirayama K, Tsutsui T. Cytotoxic effect of eugenol on the expression of molecular markers related to the osteogenic differentiation of human dental pulp cells. Odontology. 2011;99:188–192.[PubMed]
19. Okada N, Hirata A, Murakami Y, et al. Induction of cytotoxicity and apoptosis and inhibition of cyclo-oxygenase-2 gene expression by eugenol-related compounds. Anticancer Res. 2005;25:3263–3270.[PubMed]
20. Gosh R, Nadiminty N, Fitzpatrick JE, et al. Eugenol causes melanoma growth suppression through inhibition of E2f1 transcriptional activity. J Biol Chem. 2005;280:5812–5819. [PubMed]
21. Reitman S, Frankel S. A colorimetric method for the determination of serum glutamic oxaloacetic and glutamic pyruvic transaminases. Am J Clin Pathol. 1957;28 [PubMed]
22. Kouidhi B, Zmantar T, Bakhrouf A. Anti-cariogenic and cytotoxic activity of clove essential oil (Eugenia caryophyllata) against a large number of oral pathogens. Ann Microbiol. 2010;60:599–604.
23. Hull BL. Dehorning the adult goat. Vet Clin North Am Food Anim Pract. 1995;11(1):183–185.[PubMed]
24. Buttle H, Mowlem A, Mews A. Disbudding and dehorning of goats. In Practice. 1986;8:63–68.[PubMed]
25. Alvarez L, Gutierrez J. A first description of the physio-logical and behavioural responses to disbudding in goat kids. Anim Welfare. 2010;19(1):55–59.
26. Bowen JS. Dehorning the mature goat. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1977;171 [PubMed]
27. Wright HJ, Adams DS, Trigo FJ. Meningoencephalitis after hot-iron disbudding of goat kids. Vet Med Small Anim Clin. 1983;78:599.
28. Stilwell G, Campos de Carvalho R, Lima MS, et al. Effect of caustic paste disbudding, using local anaesthesia with and without analgesia, on behaviour and cortisol of calves. Appl Anim Behav Sci.2009;116:35.
29. Öztürk A, Özbek H. The anti-inflammatory activity of Eugenia caryophyllata essential oil: A animal model of anti-inflammatory activity. Eur J Gen Med. 2005;2:159–163.
30. Yang Y-C, Lee S-H, Lee W-J, et al. Ovicidal and adulticidal effects of Eugenia caryophyllata bud and leaf oil compounds on Pediculus capitis. J Agr Food Chem. 2003;51:4884–4888. [PubMed]
31. Sukumaran K, Unnikrishnan MC, Kuttan R. Inhibition of tumour promotion in mice by eugenol. Indian J Physiol Pharmacol. 1994;38:306–308. [PubMed]
32. Koger LM. Dehorning by injection of calcium chloride. Vet Med Small Anim Clin. 1976;71(6):824–825.[PubMed]
Articles from Veterinary Research Forum are provided here courtesy of *Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Urmia University, Urmia, Iran*


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 26, 2015)

This was very interesting.  I was looking to see discussion of regrowth possibilities as most of the study seems to be on 3 months or younger.  I wonder if as they age, if they have any regrowth or scurring.  I see this, but it only says they recorded horn growth for two months and then compared it to horn growth data---I keep rereading the last part though and I am not sure I follow.

"The speed of horn growth was evaluated by measuring of horn height (distance from base to tip of horn) with a fine caliper. *The data of horn height was recorded during two months study* and compared statistically, after that; the horn growth was _evaluated clinically between the groups for a 12-month study perio_d."


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## Latestarter (Oct 26, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> This was very interesting.  I was looking to see discussion of regrowth possibilities as most of the study seems to be on 3 months or younger.  I wonder if as they age, if they have any regrowth or scurring.  I see this, but it only says they recorded horn growth for two months and then compared it to horn growth data---I keep rereading the last part though and I am not sure I follow.
> 
> "The speed of horn growth was evaluated by measuring of horn height (distance from base to tip of horn) with a fine caliper. *The data of horn height was recorded during two months study* and compared statistically, after that; the horn growth was _evaluated clinically between the groups for a 12-month study perio_d."



I think this graph they provided may address that. It clearly shows the clove horn has zero growth over the 2 month period, while the saline slowed growth for a couple of days and then no longer had any effect with similar growth rates between the saline and the non injected horn growth.


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 26, 2015)

Right.  I think though that they injected the bud, charted growth for two months, compared it to data and such--- but then that was the end of the length that they charted it.  I sometimes have scurs pop up later and I am wondering if they continue this study, watching say for a year, if it will persist in being effective or if they will see any regrowth.  It sounds promising.  I would love to not burn buds.


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## Latestarter (Oct 26, 2015)

You quoted it yourself...

*"Macroscopic study.* The speed of horn growth was evaluated by measuring of horn height (distance from base to tip of horn) with a fine caliper. _The data of horn height was recorded during two months study_ _* and compared statistically, after that;*_ _the horn growth was evaluated clinically between the groups for a 12-month study period._" 

They stated in the study results that the injection was 100% effective at eliminating horn growth. There was really no reason to chart beyond the 60 day period. You can clearly see in that time that there was zero horn growth on the injected horns. In fact, the necropsy evidence also clearly shows the bud is dead. As a result, there can't possibly be any scurs. When the time comes, I hope to be able to use this method. I don't know if any vets around here use this method.


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 26, 2015)

I am sure they will do more follow up research on this.  If it's a new study, I doubt many vets would be doing it.


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## Roving Jacobs (Oct 27, 2015)

I've read a few journal articles on people using clove oil injection for castration with some success too. None of my creatures need disbudding but if they did I would be sorely tempted to try this. Clove oil and 1cc syringes are a lot cheaper and easier to get a hold of than disbudding irons.


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## Scooby308 (Jan 13, 2016)

Any more info on this?


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## babsbag (Jan 13, 2016)

I will be doing it this year. I have the clove bud oil on order. It is .2 cc per horn bud, just not sure if it is injected to the top of the horn bud or if you do it in the side.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

After talking with @babsbag  last week I talked to my vet and have put out info to several of our other vets.

We are trying it too.  Will share results.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 14, 2016)

Where are you ordering from?  I'd like to try it with the Boers we have to see how it goes.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

@Pearce Pastures - My vet made a few calls after I sent the article - he has secured "medical Grade" _Eugenol.  _Instead of buying a whole bottle he is getting it from his other vet friend and we will have 4cc.  2cc will do 5 goats so we can do up to 10...
I am still thinking of doing this only on the bucks that we intend on wethering.  

I will have to ask about where to buy it from. I am sure like all other things there is a % or grade so to speak... it mentions this in the study.
Really am unsure of doing this on a $350-$450 doe. 


Curious as to where @babsbag  is getting hers.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

I'll be very interested to see how it turns out
Has there been any follow up studies in US with a larger sample size ?
Not to disparage Vet Schools in Iran but I've never heard of Iran being a hotbed of veterinary research and 16 animals isn't a large sampling 
@Southern by choice  did you send it to a vet who teaches at NC State ?


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 14, 2016)

@Southern by choice that is my thinking too--I would try this out on my wethered Boers because they are only going to be around for a year.  And I agree--a bigger, more long term study would be nice.  Maybe we can put it together ourselves


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> I'll be very interested to see how it turns out
> Has there been any follow up studies in US with a larger sample size ?
> Not to disparage Vet Schools in Iran but I've never heard of Iran being a hotbed of veterinary research and 16 animals isn't a large sampling
> @Southern by choice  did you send it to a vet who teaches at NC State ?



Yes OFA.

The fact that this was a small study and where the study was done is of little concern to me because the US does not do much research or spend $ on anything goat.

LOL but that is why I am doing this on "terminal" animals.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

The small sampling is significant or rather statistically its insignificant.
And I don't remember did they necropsy the animals to see if it caused any other damage?


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## madcow (Jan 14, 2016)

germanchickTX said:


> Hi there!
> I so wish this would have been available to Rosie and Goose, my first pair of dairy/meat cross bottle babies.
> I read about the regular disbudding with the hot iron with 4 to 10 days of age. But here in my area the main business is commercial goats, even with 4-H, and this service is not available. All the vets here told me to bring them in with 3-4 weeks of age. So when I brought them to the vet, he told me that it would be very unlikely to get scurs with his method. I wasn't even asked if I would want to watch. Got my kids back with a huge bandage around head and throat that severly inhibited their breathing and sucking, with the comment to take it off after 3 days. Well, I left it on longer, also because the gauze underneath had slipped some. Huge horrible piece of work to get the bandage off, it was badly stuck; lots of soaking, screaming kids and bleeding. I think the vet scooped the horn buds, they hade huge wounds, but luckily no opening into the sinus cavity.
> Now guess what: they are 3 months old now and both are getting a scur on each bud spot!
> ...


OMG, that's terrible!  Looks like it was painful afterwards too!  Definitely not the way to go in my book.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 14, 2016)

I think they did a necropsy but only to see if there was any further cell growth. They were young too and I still wonder if a few more months might see any evidence of cell repair and regrowth.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

I think it wise to try on terminal animals
I will await you findings


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

Pearce Pastures said:


> I think they did a necropsy but only to see if there was any further cell growth. They were young too and I still wonder if a few more months might see any evidence of cell repair and regrowth.


Sometime academic studies particularly something like this needs further examination as to what they don't say
I mean this could actually cause more discomfort than disbudding with an iron
Without the smell of burnt hair of course


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> The small sampling is significant or rather statistically its insignificant.
> And I don't remember did they necropsy the animals to see if it caused any other damage?



They took tissue sampling along the way... I do not believe they necropsied... they continued for out to 1 year. There are pics of the goats with one horn at 12 months of age. The other side NO horn growth at all.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> Sometime academic studies particularly something like this needs further examination as to what they don't say
> I mean this could actually cause more discomfort than disbudding with an iron
> Without the smell of burnt hair of course



Did you read the whole study because they answer all the questions you ask. 
They also list and you can see the articles on iron usage etc.

So far I think it is worth trying on the terminals... ultimately it is a possible win for the goat community. I know how much we all hate  burning... I think that is every producers MOST hated thing to do.
So far I have quite a few willing to do the same with their "terminals" so hopefully, collectively, we the goat keepers will be able to provide enough data to see if it is the way to go. 

Wouldn't it be wonderful to never have to burn another goat! 

In the "research world" there is so much that is done that is not always necessary. Yes, a "real" study would have tissue sampling every so many days and blah blah blah... sometimes just doing it based on the small study done showing no ill affects is the way to go. IMO


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

Yes I read the article some time ago

Done at a vet school im Iran by people who I know nothing about their credentials on 16 animals 

In  the "research world" as you say the way it works is that another researcher validates the original research results
And I don't see that anyone has


And what do you base the statement that in the research world they do so much that isn't necessary 

You are right a "real study" would have all of that blah, blah, blah stuff


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## babsbag (Jan 14, 2016)

Well I have will lots of kids to practice on this year so I will be doing my own little study. I sell my kids as pets even though they are registered and most aren't show quality so I haven't much to lose.  I am using 100% pure  organic clove bud oil for an online dealer that I have used for other stuff. I can't find any medical grade. There is a difference between clove bud and clove so I had to make sure I got the "bud". My question is still do I inject from the top or from the base? Any thoughts?


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## Mini Horses (Jan 14, 2016)

TX A&M  and VA Tech have been the main sources for goat studies &/or research.  TX because of the huge influx of Boers in the early 1990s.  It wasn't long after that VA Tech began and they had annual meetings with we goat groups to assist growers in health and productivity of stock.  I used to attend them.  

If any such studies or trials were done in USA, they may have info.   TX A&M is only lab I know of where we can send for the
G-6-S testing on Nubians. Perhaps your vets can research their databanks to see if anything is under consideration.

I would LOVE to simply inject but, like all, concerns about long term results, effects & possible surrounding tissue damages.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Well I have will lots of kids to practice on this year so I will be doing my own little study. I sell my kids as pets even though they are registered and most aren't show quality so I haven't much to lose.  I am using 100% pure  organic clove bud oil for an online dealer that I have used for other stuff. I can't find any medical grade. There is a difference between clove bud and clove so I had to make sure I got the "bud". My question is still do I inject from the top or from the base? Any thoughts?



Maybe you can email the researchers ?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

Who is going to do research on this here... seriously. There is NO MONEY IN IT! 



That is why there is so little goat research done in the US... no money in it in the long run... that is why everything is off label for goats. No one wants to put the $ up for funding the studies so that "for goats" can be on the label. We are not a "goat" country. 

I guess I see it as it either works or doesn't. 
Some swelling may occur but that is likely with disbudding as well. 

My concern was about the necrotic tissue and risk... after talking with 2 vets so far neither thinks it is an issue. 

I had talked with Babs about it when she mentioned she was doing it this year... she had the study at hand so sent it.... I in turn turned to my vets... worth a try.  

I figure if it works on BUCKS than WOO HOO!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 14, 2016)

Well I wish you all good luck


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## Southern by choice (Jan 14, 2016)

Thanks! 

If it ends up a disaster then at least we will know


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## newbiekat (Jan 15, 2016)

I would be interested in your results as well. Like you said in an earlier post, it would DEFINITELY be a win for the goat community because disbudding is a TERRIBLE part of owning goats.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm eager to hear how this goes for all of you trying it.  Please keep us posted.


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## animalmom (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm all eyes!  Please @babsbag and @Southern by choice, keep all of us posted on your progress.  And yep I'd rather wrestle a copper bolus down my biggest buck, in full fragrance, than dis-bud the babies.


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## Scooby308 (Jan 16, 2016)

Sent the article to a vet friend in Texas. Waiting to hear her thoughts.


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## Scooby308 (Jan 18, 2016)

And her response was typical. I live in Austin, not too many goats. Just do dogs and cats. Wow, you'd think maybe she would branch out. When she lived in KY, she was big into bovine and swine...guess she gave up the rat race for the cat chase.


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## Latestarter (Jan 18, 2016)

Follow the bouncing $$ bills...


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## Queen Mum (Feb 15, 2018)

Babsbag, Southern?   How about the results?   I'd be very interested at this point.  I'm pretty sure the injection site is around the base of the bud.  As that is the source of any new growth.    

Further, i would guess that if it works with new kids, it may also work on scurs.  

I disbud by burning.  

I've tried both paste and burning and will NEVER, ever use paste on a bud again!  

However, with advanced scur growth, I have found that I can put a little paste around a banded scur and the scur will come off MUCH faster with out the discomfort associated with pasting a kid's buds. I put the band on, then rub paste into a piece of gauze and wrap it tightly around the band with a piece of elastoband, so the goat can't rub it off.  The scur comes off pretty quickly.


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## babsbag (Feb 15, 2018)

Don't do the clove oil. Kids can easily go into respiratory distress and die. Clove oil is toxic at high doses and there is no  good information on what that dose is for a goat.


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## Queen Mum (Feb 16, 2018)

I think it needs more research to work out dosing for different size animals.  I'm still hopeful, but at this point cautious and think we should be very careful in following a vet recommended protocol if doing it ourselves.


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## klcardella (Mar 12, 2018)

Queen Mum said:


> Babsbag, Southern?   How about the results?   I'd be very interested at this point.  I'm pretty sure the injection site is around the base of the bud.  As that is the source of any new growth.
> 
> Further, i would guess that if it works with new kids, it may also work on scurs.
> 
> ...



After seeing some serious problems with burning (by a vet)on my wether brush eaters, I was too afraid to have it done, so when I got a Jersey heifer, I used the paste, and it worked great.  After a year, she looks polled with zero growth.

I recently used it on two Nubian bucks at 6 days old, and they look good so far.  We left it on for 30 minutes, then washed with vinegar, then warm water.  They scratched at their heads for about a half hour, then acted completely normal.  After 24 hours, 3 of the 4 buds have fallen off, and the 4th is scabby.  I am cautiously optimistic that it will work as well as it did for the calf.

I did have my husband hold them for the entire 30 minutes wrapped in a blanket, and we covered their faces with an old cloth diaper to avoid anything getting in their eyes.

I have heard so many horror stories about the paste, but my experience has been the opposite, and the burning by the vet has been very much worse.  Of course, this has only been my experience.

BTW, with the burning, we only have 3 out of 8 that have no scurs.


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