# Whoa, LGD finally viewing humans as predators!



## dianneS (Jan 19, 2012)

Okay, my LGD has been amazing after working through some growing pains in his "teenage" phase.

I never really thought he would ever see humans as potential predators.  He's always been such a big goofball and very friendly to everyone.  Lately however, he's been doing some serious barking from his side of the fence any time he sees a stranger.  Or even a person he's met before but doesn't see very often.

Today, I had a visitor that he's met before and I was standing right there.  We were about 8 feet from the fence.  Alex, the dog, came over, jumped up at the fence and began barking, then began growling... a very serious, _I mean business_ growl.  He even started to quiver all over, and his lips were pursed very tightly (not bearing his teeth).  He kept this up, even when I told him to relax.

I went to the fence, and I was able to pet him, he didn't wag his tail though.  He was still leery of my visitor.

I'm quite surprised.  I honestly never thought I would see behavior like that out of him.  Now I'm concerned about potential dog bites.  I guess I'd better make sure he stays securely contained within our fences so that he doesn't wander and become a liability?

I am pleased that he's becoming so protective.  Too bad I can't have him guard the house!


----------



## terrilhb (Jan 19, 2012)

. Sounds like he is going to be a fantastic dog.


----------



## secuono (Jan 19, 2012)

Keep him on your property and you are fine. Post signs that say 'guard dog' attach dog' and other such quotes where people will see them on the fence. That will protect you from an idiot getting bit when there are signs clearly stating he will get bitten. 
That's what I have on my fences, 'warning, guard dog' with a doberman picture on it. Keeps my mind at ease about morons trespassing or trying to touch my Doberman. Though, some people are really dumb, I've had a strew of visitors recently to do random work at the house and to pick up chickens. They all asked the same stupid question, even though they passed or stood by my signs....wow...
"can I pet him, will he bite me, but he wagged his tail at me." We need better education about dogs...ugh. 
Sign has been there for years, I've got pics with them in the picture here and there for proof if anyone wants to try and sue me saying there are no signs. Lol, they can bite me at that point. 


I wonder, can a lgd jump a 4ft fence? They seem soooo chill and big, I wouldn't think they would. Or if they are off the property, would they really bite?
How is he on a walk, vets or stores if you take him?


----------



## terrilhb (Jan 19, 2012)

secuono said:
			
		

> Keep him on your property and you are fine. Post signs that say 'guard dog' attach dog' and other such quotes where people will see them on the fence. That will protect you from an idiot getting bit when there are signs clearly stating he will get bitten.
> That's what I have on my fences, 'warning, guard dog' with a doberman picture on it. Keeps my mind at ease about morons trespassing or trying to touch my Doberman. Though, some people are really dumb, I've had a strew of visitors recently to do random work at the house and to pick up chickens. They all asked the same stupid question, even though they passed or stood by my signs....wow...
> "can I pet him, will he bite me, but he wagged his tail at me." We need better education about dogs...ugh.
> Sign has been there for years, I've got pics with them in the picture here and there for proof if anyone wants to try and sue me saying there are no signs. Lol, they can bite me at that point.
> ...


You have a doberman? Are they good with chickens and goats?


----------



## dianneS (Jan 20, 2012)

I have the signs from the Anatolia Shepherd association that state "Working Livestock Guardian Dog, Do not Disturb".  I was told that putting "beware of dog" signs made them more of a liability and could get you in more trouble if someone gets bit?

Anyway, most people do ignore the signs I have, especially since my dog is typically standing at the fence wagging his tail.  Not anymore!  There are certain visitors who really poo-poohed my dogs guarding abilities.  I can't wait until they come for another visit!


----------



## DKRabbitry (Jan 20, 2012)

Here in MI, it is against the law to have a dog that you know is "aggressive" and that you know will bite someone, so Beware of Dog signs and Attack dog signs do put you at higher risk if your dog bites someone because it just says that you knew you had an aggressive dog.  My sign says "CAUTION: Dogs on Premises"  People can take from that what they will.  Litterally, it just says I have dogs, but people assume it means I have dogs they need to worry about.

Someone I knew that lived in CA said that there it was better to have signs that say your dog will bite to warn people.  I don't know if that is true or not, but mostly I would say it depends on where you live and what judge you get if you get taken to court for a dog bite.

That is really cool that your dog matured and is doing his job!  And I wholeaheartedly agree with your thought that at this point, you know he knows what he was bred for, and it is YOUR responsibilty to protect him and make sure the fence is secure.  But, anything inside that fence is fair game LOL


----------



## Beekissed (Jan 20, 2012)

I don't know if I would let him continue to threaten while you are there.  Usually they will bark a warning and even display threatening behavior if a stranger appears while you are gone or not in the immediate vicinity.  They should stop that as soon as the pack leader-YOU-has been alerted to the danger and comes to diffuse the threat.  If you do not arrive, then they would continue to guard....the livestock/vicinity.  Lunging at, jumping up on or growling at humans-or the fence in front of the visitors~ shouldn't be tolerated unless they are strangers advancing on the herd without you to approve it.

ANY person in your "pack", friends, family, etc., should be tolerated after the first introduction or so.  For infrequent visitors, they should still bark but shouldn't be that aggressive.


----------



## dianneS (Jan 21, 2012)

> Beware of Dog signs and Attack dog signs do put you at higher risk if your dog bites someone because it just says that you knew you had an aggressive dog.


That's what I thought.


----------



## lilhill (Jan 21, 2012)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I don't know if I would let him continue to threaten while you are there.  Usually they will bark a warning and even display threatening behavior if a stranger appears while you are gone or not in the immediate vicinity.  They should stop that as soon as the pack leader-YOU-has been alerted to the danger and comes to diffuse the threat.  If you do not arrive, then they would continue to guard....the livestock/vicinity.  Lunging at, jumping up on or growling at humans-or the fence in front of the visitors~ shouldn't be tolerated unless they are strangers advancing on the herd without you to approve it.
> 
> ANY person in your "pack", friends, family, etc., should be tolerated after the first introduction or so.  For infrequent visitors, they should still bark but shouldn't be that aggressive.


.  I have signs posted that say:  Caution, guardian dogs at work.


----------



## peteyfoozer (Jan 21, 2012)

I agree that you should be able to get them to stand down. You might want to work on how to introduce people so your dog knows who YOU accept and who you are not sure of. They are incredibly intelligent and learn quickly. 
Mine have free run of the ranch here, and the boss often has hunters and their bird dogs show up, so my dogs have to be VERY social on 'neutral' territory. They have never been aggressive with either human or canine in the neutral area, but they don't allow dogs, birds of prey, or strange people out with their sheep, goats or chickens unless accompanied by me. Only the cowboys are allowed in with the calves. Its amazing how they are able to discern these things. I don't think I have ever been around more intelligent dogs. 

I had to go to town one day and had a lady milk for me. They were fine with her because she had been coming over to help frequently, but were VERY unhappy about her husband coming to carry the milker for her. I HAD introduced them to him before, but never had him in the yard. She said they escorted him, grumbling, the whole way there and back. I was glad they were wary but not overly aggressive. If he had been alone, I am pretty sure they would not have let him enter at all.
I'd sure want to prevent anything that would endanger my dogs, which an attack surely would.


----------



## Beekissed (Jan 21, 2012)

My dogs recognize even "safe" vehicles...they can distinguish the sounds of "their" people or even our infrequent visitors and won't bark more than a "Hey, Mom!  We have company!" bark.  Let those infrequent visitors come when we are not around and they get the full warning barks/behavior.  

It is true about their level of intelligence.  My dogs can even distinguish~I assume by the body language~who is in our "pack" of friends vs. someone who just came to deliver a load of wood and comes back to deliver another when we are not around.  I even introduced our wood guy to my dog recently and they exchanged howdies....but he still treated him like a stranger when he delivered a load when we were not here.  All reports were the wood guy was kind of scared to get down from his truck even though he knew the dog was contained in a wireless electric boundary.  

These dogs pick up their behavior from our cues, our body language, our training.  They are too big to just let them show unwarranted aggression, so I nip it in the bud if they bark too long or for the wrong reasons.  This happens rarely but a young dog will try it on for size.


----------



## dianneS (Jan 31, 2012)

I was really impressed with my boy yesterday.  We had a visitor coming to look at a car for sale.  Alex got very upset, barked at the fence, then calmed down and positioned himself inside the fence where he could see the garage door and the visitor's car!

That dog stayed there the whole time, he didn't move and he continued to watch the garage and the car, when the visitor emerged from the garage, the dog jumped up at the fence and gave some warning barks.  He didn't leave his post until that visitor was gone!  It was pretty impressive!


----------



## carolinagirl (Jan 31, 2012)

dianneS said:
			
		

> I was really impressed with my boy yesterday.  We had a visitor coming to look at a car for sale.  Alex got very upset, barked at the fence, then calmed down and positioned himself inside the fence where he could see the garage door and the visitor's car!
> 
> That dog stayed there the whole time, he didn't move and he continued to watch the garage and the car, when the visitor emerged from the garage, the dog jumped up at the fence and gave some warning barks.  He didn't leave his post until that visitor was gone!  It was pretty impressive!


that's fantastic!  How old is your dog now?  I am looking forward to the day when my pups don't welcome all visitors with open arms! lol!


----------



## redtailgal (Jan 31, 2012)

What a good dog!

and

You have received some good advice on here, too.  I agree with what people are saying about the "Beware of Dog" and "Guard Dog" signs,  it implies that you have a known biter, and if he were to get out and bite someone, you would face a harsher penalty.  Just putting up a sign that there are dogs on the property does not infer there are biting dogs, just a warning for people that may be afraid or allergic to dogs.

The quivering, body posture, growling etc that you described...that describes a dog in hard protective mode.  While it is a good trait for a guardian to have, you will need to train him to control himself, or you may end up with a dog that is dangerously aggressive.  Teaching aggressive dogs control is my training specialty!  I love seeing a dog learn how to use that aggression properly and for maximum effect, scaring the snot out of would be bad guys without even laying a tooth on them (unless its needed)

Your next step with him is easy.  When you have a human visitor and your dog is reacting aggressively, calmly tell your visitor that you'll be with them in just a moment, and then take a minute or two to devote all your time on the dog.  Tell the  dog "WHAT A GOOD BOY!"  If you are the treat giving type, give a treat or just pet the dog and praise him.  When he settles, and is relatively quiet, he should be looking at the visitor and possibly quivering.  At this point, say "Good boy, WATCH."  IF the dog is WELL trained in "sit" or "laydown" ask them to do this now, but only if you are confident that they will do it, you do not want to correct behavior right now.

Now go back to your visitor.

If the dog resumes barking, give a quiet and quick "hush" if you need to gently help the dog quiet (no harsh corrections, lay your hand on his head or something).  Once he is quiet again, wait for him to look at the visitor, and then give a "good boy, WATCH".

If the dog walks away before you are ready for him to, call him back.  When he returns, keep an eye for him to look at the visitor and immediately give a "good boy, watch".

If the dog walks away and it is ok with you, say (loud enough for the dog to here) "Good boy! DANKA!"  You dont have to use the word "DANKA",  Make up your own word, "OK' "Leave" etc.  I use strange words that people dont associate with trained dogs.  FOr instance, "Danka" has been a release command, and "monkey butt" for attack.  

These are not the words I use now with my mastiff.  The point is for these words to not be easily guessed, so that a stranger can call the dog off, if the dog would listen.


----------



## tressa27884 (Jul 22, 2015)

I have a Border Collie who DOES NOT TOLERATE strangers.  Because of that she was trained to have an amazing recall.  When I call her to me she will immediately come and stand between my legs.  She will continue to growl but will stop barking.  I have no doubt she would bite somebody that crossed the threshold of my property, or tried to harm me or my children.  It takes her a few days to warm up to house guests, but as long as they follow the rules of ignoring her until she chooses to befriend them, they can come and go as they please without fear of being bitten.  She is not a warm, fuzzy, cuddly dog, even with me - but she is an AMAZING farm dog.  She takes her job seriously.  Leaves the chickens, goats and horses alone, will help me round them up and secure them when needed, and then comes in at night with the family.  I still want an LGD, but must have a puppy so they will learn to tolerate (if not work with) each other.


----------



## Robbin (Aug 6, 2015)

My Border Collie will lick you to death while you rob us blind.  My Toli is that friendly if I'm there, close to  and talking to the stranger.  He also tolerates their pets. If I'm stand offish, so is he. If I'm not there, he barks, stands alert and watches like a hawk.  At 140 you would be crazy to challenge him.  I still don't think he would attack unless you threatened him. He allows people that drive up and act friendly and act like they know what they are doing to come and go under a watchful eye.  IE the meter reader and gas delivery truck and ups truck.  But Don't approach on foot, and for gods sake don't approach on foot in the dark.  Nobody walks up to our house and they sure don't do it in the dark.  I tried him once in the dark, to see how he would react when he thought I wasn't there.  Not very smart, I managed to call him off before he reached me, he was roaring like a lion, all teeth and hair,  and coming at a dead run.  You really don't know what they are going to act like because it's tempered by your presence.


----------



## Alibo (Aug 6, 2015)

My doberman is protective about stangers but i have trained her to "say hello" to people we trust. She goes up and sniffs their hands and is fine after because I have told her they are ok. However if I do not introduce her I can tell her to quiet but she will Not go off alert until they are gone. This makes me feel safer being alone on the property all day. A good dog will trust your signals and work with your body language it may just need to be a training technique for it to click.


----------



## Alibo (Aug 6, 2015)

terrilhb said:


> You have a doberman? Are they good with chickens and goats?



My Dobe is the best farm dog I could ask for. Always at heel, a huge mama to all my chickens and goats and listens wayy better than even my children! She is protective but never aggressive and ever watching. You can teach them anything and they want to do anything for you.


----------



## Robbin (Aug 10, 2015)

Alibo said:


> My Dobe is the best farm dog I could ask for. Always at heel, a huge mama to all my chickens and goats and listens wayy better than even my children! She is protective but never aggressive and ever watching. You can teach them anything and they want to do anything for you. View attachment 10946



Love that Pic!


----------



## Latestarter (Aug 30, 2015)

That is a very cute pic. Love dogs that love our kids. I have a LGD Toli/Pyr pup (right @ 8 mos old) who has not become protective yet. He's about 110 lbs right now & is a watcher. I'm thinking to get him a female Pyr that's a patroller some time next year. Hopefully they will form a team, and if all works out, I may allow them to breed.

I think I will get signs that simply say "guard dogs on premises" coupled with "Private Property - No trespassing" signs. Astounds me that you would need to put a sign up to tell people you don't want them coming on your property without permission/invite... Especially when the boundaries are fenced... Isn't that like a hint?


----------



## Robbin (Sep 1, 2015)

I put a working dog sign on the gate, then a much meaner looking guard dog sign 100 yards deep after someone opened my gate and walked back over 200 yards until they ran into my son.  Another 100 yards and they will meet Toli.


----------



## samssimonsays (Sep 1, 2015)

Our pyr/Bernard mix boy is not quite 1 year yet, September 21st is his bday. He is JUST starting to learn to sound the alarm. He would still probably help you rob us but Sunday night when my husband got home he was on his motorcycle in a helmet and leather jacket, he lost it. Last night I honestly thought he was going to go through the window at his friend whom he usually loves but mamma was home alone and he snuck up on us. He is starting to show that he is uneasy when dad is away as well. Always alert and sleeps light at night. Our window is cracked from him hitting the window once while we were not home. But at the same time, he has allowed the UPS and FedEx guys into the house without so much as a boof.... As long as I put my hand on him and tell him ok, he will calm down. Still on guard but not to the extent he was at before I do it. Our Collie is the one we know would attack if someone came in to try to harm us and I have never once had to so much as feel uneasy with someone. She knows who is good. It is some amazing ability she has had from the beginning. She sounds the alarm with everyone she meets mostly because she loves people but after one sniff she will know if they are "good" or "bad" people. If she is unsure of someone or acting unusually protective (I can read her well) I know they are not people I want to be around. She has not been wrong yet and she's been doing it since we brought her home at 8 weeks old. Thankfully the Pyr/bernard pup has imprinted on her and even though he acts like a dummy, he is smarter than he leads on


----------



## mikiz (Sep 1, 2015)

I don't have an LGD, but my Chi is a great human guard dog. If she knows I don't want someone around, or if someone comes over that I'm not expecting, she won't stop barking at them until I tell her it's ok and will usually jump up on my lap to say don't come near us. If it's someone I want around, like my mum or certain friends, she doesn't make a peep after the first "omg there's someone here" alert. 
Honestly it's probably not healthy for her to be worrying so much every time someone comes over so I am slowly training her out of it, and she's ok once she's met someone a few times now. 
Nobody would ever be able to steal her though because she'll only let me or "dad" pick her up, nobody else can even talk to her without her being suspicious and backing off a few feet.


----------



## Scooby308 (Oct 15, 2015)

I had never had a Doberman but always wanted one. My Rottie, was a pound rescue and turned 14 this year. She is the best trained dog you will ever meet. Answers to verbal signals in English and German. She also obeys hand signals. We've been together for 12 years and she reads my mind. Anyway, the wife thought if I had a pup it would help me mentally. I cracked my lower spine 3 years ago and it will never heal. So a year and 5 months ago she surprised me with a Dobie pup. I didn't know the breed other than what I had read and we later found out the breeder was less than reputable. All that said, I will never own another breed for in the house personal protection companion. He is such a spoiled turd, but the smartest most easily trained dog I have ever owned. He should have been named Scooby cause he acts like him, gentle loving caring easy going. But a stranger shows up and he's a different dog. Scare the bejebus outta folks. He goes everywhere with me including in stores. He minds his manners and is never cross. If I stop he sits behind me and leans on my kegs watching my back. My Rottie is super protective but hates strangers. I couldn't take her in a place at all. He will not let someone walk up behind me without a growl. I say it's ok, let it go and he stops. Just a great breed.


----------



## Scooby308 (Oct 15, 2015)

I have no clue why the first two pics are sideways?


----------



## Latestarter (Oct 15, 2015)

Just in the past week my Anatolian x Pyr has started barking at night when suspicious things are nearby. He's 9 months old and he has a very loud deep bark.  He's growing into the guardian I hoped he'd become. He doesn't just bark to bark.


----------



## babsbag (Oct 16, 2015)

@Latestarter; an LGD that doesn't bark at the moon, the stars, the sun, the leaves, the butterflies, the birds and everything else in this world is worth his weight in gold...I had one of those once.  My current dogs bark when needed which is great, but the scary part is that they have been barking A LOT the last few months...what is out there?  I can't just pretend it is a falling leaf.


----------



## Latestarter (Oct 16, 2015)

Well, considering the source of my LGD, I really wasn't worried that he'd be anything less than the best available! I really do need to get him a partner though. He needs a full time night time companion and partner. Seeing him alert with his hackles up is pretty intense. Add the deep growl, and bark, and I don't seriously worry about intruders too much. But he is still pretty young and unseasoned.  Though yeah, I definitely can see your concern when you can't tell what's getting them stirred up. Especially when it's happening often! Hope your dog and herd are safe.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 16, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> Well, considering the source of my LGD, I really wasn't worried that he'd be anything less than the best available! I really do need to get him a partner though. He needs a full time night time companion and partner. Seeing him alert with his hackles up is pretty intense. Add the deep growl, and bark, and I don't seriously worry about intruders too much. But he is still pretty young and unseasoned.  Though yeah, I definitely can see your concern when you can't tell what's getting them stirred up. Especially when it's happening often! Hope your dog and herd are safe.



One of the reasons "Mel" was selected was for your environment A) companion dog first B) potential guardian later and C) you are in a neighborhood.  Several of the other pups would be a nightnare for you in that regard- as they bark ALOT.  Glad he kept with the low bark level. His sire "D" is not a barker except for when he needs to and it doesn't go on forever. Toil's seem to be annoying barkers more often than not.
Mel should be fine as a single because primarily he is companion. Many of our pups go to single LGD homes and yes boredom is tough a little in the first year but no issues and they are all fine. As long as they get that exercise and their human companionship. Problems arise when they just have to sit around with no stimulation for 24/7.


----------



## Timberdoodle (Feb 18, 2016)

dianneS said:


> Okay, my LGD has been amazing after working through some growing pains in his "teenage" phase.
> 
> I never really thought he would ever see humans as potential predators.  He's always been such a big goofball and very friendly to everyone.  Lately however, he's been doing some serious barking from his side of the fence any time he sees a stranger.  Or even a person he's met before but doesn't see very often.
> 
> ...



IMO, this is what LGDs do. Be careful though, the courts don't always recognize this. See:
http://www.postindependent.com/news/20679881-113/mountain-bike-dog-attack-case-ends-with-1

Dogs doing their jobs vs ignorant and/or arrogant recreationists.


----------



## Southern by choice (Feb 18, 2016)

This was a disgusting outcome.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Feb 25, 2016)

What a horrible story.


----------

