# Am I buying healthy goats? How do I know



## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

Ok, so everything I read, hear and know screams that CAE is not good, am I correct at that?  Same with CL and such. So IF I have that correct, then how do I know if whoever I am buying from is being honest when they state that they are free of these things? Is there a documentation I can request to be presented with or is it the honor code? I have been looking for Nubian does and got super excited to have found one not terribly far away but I read the info and it was posted clear as day.... 
"


"

I am so new to this I wanted to ask to make sure because she is a very nice looking do, as are the others they have listed... Is this a goat to stay away from?  I mean, if she even is just a carrier, she can still pass it to offspring and if they show symptoms they can pass it to my other goats correct? Sadly, even though they have some very nice looking goats, I am not willing to risk bringing something bad into my small herd. WHich is why I am coming to you guys about this. Because even though you have never met me, you still have my herds health in mind. 

Thank you for any advice you can give!


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## Hens and Roos (Dec 18, 2015)

when we purchased the 3 does- the person selling them provided paper work showing that her herd had all been tested and found neg. for CAE, CL and Johne's.

We also test and have the paper work showing neg. test results that can be provided to anyone buying our goats.

personally, we wouldn't take the chance on it...but that's just us.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

Thank you! That is good to know! I am slightly paranoid but glad the add stated what it did and got me to thinking how some may not be so straight forward...


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

Do not get a CAE positive goat.

We provide documentation of our testing to our clients.
We now make sure we SEE the documentation of any goat we are considering.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 18, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> when we purchased the 3 does- the person selling them provided paper work showing that her herd had all been tested and found neg. for CAE, CL and Johne's.
> 
> We also test and have the paper work showing neg. test results that can be provided to anyone buying our goats.
> 
> personally, we wouldn't take the chance on it...but that's just us.



X2


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Do not get a CAE positive goat.
> 
> We provide documentation of our testing to our clients.
> We now make sure we SEE the documentation of any goat we are considering.


Thank you! I was unaware of any documentation for this so it is a huge relief!  I will most certainly not buy her. I didn't want to risk it to begin with. I can rest easier now though knowing that all I have to do is request the paperwork for them when we do find some available.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

Forgot to add... that is just the testing aspect. When looking at goats you need to examine the goat also familiarize yourself with how to check eyelids- FAMACHA method. 
You will not have a card unless you are certified but understanding helps.
Ask about their parasite history, kinds of dewormers used, frequency.

Every goat should have a fecal run once coming to your farm at about 4 - 7 days. Parasitic blooms happen when goat is stressed, transport new home etc is a stressor.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> Forgot to add... that is just the testing aspect. When looking at goats you need to examine the goat also familiarize yourself with how to check eyelids- FAMACHA method.
> You will not have a card unless you are certified but understanding helps.
> Ask about their parasite history, kinds of dewormers used, frequency.
> 
> Every goat should have a fecal run once coming to your farm at about 4 - 7 days. Parasitic blooms happen when goat is stressed, transport new home etc is a stressor.


This is great info!   I can definitely do that! I didn't with the first three and was fortunate enough not to have any issues with them but I know that was lucky...  I do not want to risk anything when adding to our healthy herd. I am super careful with rabbits but I have over 10 years experience raising and showing them. Goats, not so much. We would like to do the county fair with them but that is about it at the moment.... Any advice on what to look for in that department in Nubians as well?


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

What are some good microscopes to get for checking fecals myself? 

If we are going to do this, I am going to do it right from the beginning.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

With Nubians you also need to see if they test for G6S.
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/g6s.shtml

If you have not tested your own herd for CAE, CL, and Johnes you should. 

Often people are thinking I have a healthy herd... yet  they don't test and therefore really are basing their assumptions by what they see.

If goats are being run with cattle you have a higher chance of having Johnes. Johnes really isn't detectable til 18 months and  their are several tiers of testing.

here is info on Johnes-
http://www.johnes.org/

As far as CL- People that say "I have never had a lump" doesn't mean much. CL can be internal too. Testing isn't great for this but just a heads up... CL in meat goats is all to common and somewhat acceptable to meat producers but you don't want it in a dairy herd... dairy goats mixed with untested meat goats will have a higher probability of CL

Finding a herd that tests yearly and is consecutively negative gives you your best "results" as far as a clean herd. Testing 1x is not very conclusive. If someone tests for 3-5 years consecutively has pretty much a closed herd (only buying from other clean herds) then the liklihood of the farm being truly negative is a better indicator.

Johnes & CL are zoonotic . Johnes is passed through milk and is *NOT* killed by pasteurization.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

I had never heard of the G6S until the gal we got put on a waiting list for 2 doelings. She has tested and phased out all carriers of the G6S and has been free of CL, CAE, Johnes and G6S for a while. But since we are getting 2 does from her, most likely related, we would like at least one, hopefully two with different genetics to give us a nice start. I know my oldest two came from a closed (at the time) herd, It is no longer closed, and it had tested negative for CL and CAE. My youngest came from someone who tests yearly and tests Negative for CAE and CL for sure. I plan to test them again come spring time myself to get a system going and familiarize myself with doing it at a set time each year.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

I should add that I knew both people I got my starters from so I didn't have to worry about anyone not being truthful with me so it never even dawned on me that it could happen until now.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

If we bring in a goat ( we only go to tested herds) we still quarantine for 30-60 days and during that time we draw blood and send out to test for CAE, CL, and Johnes.

Many do not test for Johnes. This is a very serious issue that is starting to become problematic and will devastate goat herds. Goat breeders really need to start paying attention to this disease. It is rampant in cattle herds

Many also do not test for CL siting "we have no lumps".  

There are times a breeder will keep a CAE or CL goat... generally because the genetics are exceptional and they want thoose genetics but some breeders are better at isolating and keeping these diseases from spreading... problem is it usually does end up infecting whole herds.

The reason you want to see the documents is because MISTAKES happen! It is not always a case of someone lying but other issues we have seen first hand with many a people.
The breeder says tested herd... but doesn't get their copy of test results from vet so breeder ASSUMES  tests, A, B, C are being done. Then they sell a goat new owner quarantines runs test and the breeder gets a call stating this doe is CAE positive!
Breeder goes frantic... they call their vet.... find out vet was never even testing for CAE.

Or test results for one thing come in -all neg- call to breeder your all neg... but what was missed is the 2nd set of results with POSITIVE on it.

Breeders have an equal responsibility to have a copy of results, review them and know their status, know what's tested for etc.

We have seen vets send out testing but because the vet doesn't believe in a certain test they don't run those- even if the client has requested... this is an issue.

So my point in all this is there are great vets, great breeders- just sometimes not on the same page and sometimes errors occur. So having both parties having a copy and reviewing is the best way to catch a problem if there is one.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

I have been told the CAE containment line from someone recently. How it is easily controlled so unless they are showing symptoms they are not culled out. I was slightly taken aback by this only because I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing in an animal with it and being so new to the world of Goats. 

Pasturella and Coccidiosis is basically all I have to worry about in rabbits but since they are in cages and separate in most cases it isn't a big deal to most. I have had judges tell me similar, that you could take the snot of a sick rabbit and put it in the healthy rabbits nose and the healthy rabbit won't get it... Then why does it spread so fast and easily? I have a feeling it is a similar thing with Goats and these things. One breeder may shrug it off, or even a vet from what you just explained, and another may not. 

I am wanting healthy, quality animals to start a herd with... I don't want to play around with the possibility of anyone being or getting sick because of mistakes or otherwise.   Sadly, I'm finding not many care that much about this sort of thing around me with the more people I contact or find.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

Samantha drawz said:


> I have been told the CAE containment line from someone recently. How it is easily controlled so unless they are showing symptoms they are not culled out. I was slightly taken aback by this only because I wouldn't feel comfortable bringing in an animal with it and being so new to the world of Goats.



I know- the mentality drives me nuts...

Zoonotic diseases are not a big deal???? SMH!

We have been very vocal - sometimes the regional vets love us some not... LOL  - we do a lot of work in our region with goats, management , and care. People need to make their own decisions because if they have the info then they can decide what is best. Often they listen to this vet or that vet or this breeder or that... none are substitutes for a person doing their OWN research and deciding for themselves. 

When someone has something in their herd they become very dismissive and all say "no big deal"... um I don't think so.

We have heard some crazy stuff- like you cannot tell if a goat has Johnes unless you necropsy it.
All goats will have CL in the end
CAE is fine if they are asymptomatic..

The list is long. 

CAE for the most part infects through colostrum but there is a small (some say 3% some studies say as high as 10%) chance of being passed in utero.

I think DonnaBelle had a post about this- just checked- here it is... a good idea of what happened is in this thread. 
Think I will go re-read this. Been a while.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/dont-tell-me-that-cae-is-no-big-deal.24625/


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

I am definately glad I chose to come here, as MY gut screamed no and I have learned to trust that voice inside of my head (sometimes it could be a bad thing lol) so I came here to double check as the person I had been talking with dismissed it like it was nothing. I am the same way with rabbits though. But with them... It is more physical, bad teeth, bad type bad temperament and so on I will not breed into my herd. I want to hold the same standard for goats. Not just be raising them to raise but raising quality animals and bettering the breed and milking ability. I have been finding that a lot of the show stock in Nubians just don't have the volume of Milk that they should around here and That is so sad to me. 

Thank you again for all the info! It really reassured me that my gut was right again.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I know- the mentality drives me nuts...
> 
> Zoonotic diseases are not a big deal???? SMH!
> 
> ...


Wow... I am absolutely exhausted from ready that post and all the links and back and forth in it. There is so, so much on the matter. I feel absolutely heartbroken for DonnaBelle for having to go through all of that with her animals. I am going to be researching people a lot more now. Definitely won't be buying unless I know for certain now.


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## Devonviolet (Dec 18, 2015)

I'm so glad I haven't bought any dairy goats yet! Up until recently I wasn't aware of the need for excellent testing & documentation when buying a goat. Southern has helped me a lot, with disease awareness & importance of testing & documentation.

As far as microscopes go. I have been told it doesn't need to be expensive or have lots of features.  That doesn't really help, though, because there are lots of options & price ranges out there.  I did a lot of research & then added what I know from my nursing experience, and ended up buying this one:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005APM5C6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

I also bought disposable slides, a variety of beaker sizes, 16X150mm test tube& disposable plastic pipettes.

How to test fecal samples on goats:

http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/fecals.htm
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/fecals.html
http://www.goatbiology.com/fecal.html
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/worms/course2.shtml


Blood testing:
I'm also going to try my hand with drawing blood and sending out blood for testing. I have a bit of an advantage over most, because of my nursing experience drawing blood & starting IVs. But with the articles & videos online, I wouldn't think it would be too hard to learn. One video I saw, a 10 year old child did it (with help of course).

Of course, since I haven't done it yet, I can't verify how good they are. But here is link for a lab that processes the labs once you've drawn the blood:
http://www.dhlaboratory.com/goats

How to draw blood from a goat:
http://www.boergoatshome.com/Blood_testing.php


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## samssimonsays (Dec 18, 2015)

This is awesome info! Thanks! It is funny because I can not handle getting shots or blood drawn but have no issues watching or doing it myself.... On others of course lol.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 18, 2015)

Devonviolet said:


> I'm so glad I haven't bought any dairy goats yet! /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I thought you had goats


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 18, 2015)

@Devonviolet 
I thought you had goats


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## Devonviolet (Dec 18, 2015)

Heh, heh, heh . . . DAIRY goats is the operational word.   And yes, I have 4 wonderful Nigerian Dwarf wethers.


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 18, 2015)

Y'all keep in mind that it is still important to make sure the wethers are tested. @Devonviolet -this is something you need to look at before you bring any other goats in.

@Samantha drawz Like the others said, stay away from that goat!
From what I've seen, it seems like CAE is more common in Nubians than some of the other dairy breeds.

Something a lot of folks forget to ask with the nubians are the eye issues. I have seen nubians & mini nubians with entropion and ectropion. People tend to forget about this but it is very important. You don't want to breed this. When looking at Nubians you need to ask the breeder about it. Ask if they have ever had to get the eyelids stapled. If they do, run quickly!


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 18, 2015)

We are planning to test for TB and Brucillisis this year too


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## Devonviolet (Dec 18, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Y'all keep in mind that it is still important to make sure the wethers are tested. @Devonviolet -this is something you need to look at before you bring any other goats in.


@Goat Whisperer. Absolutely. I bought the microscope, and now have syringes, and needles, so I can test my goats. For sure I will test my wethers before I bring other goats on our property and will quarantine any goats brought here, after obtaining proper documentation


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

Devonviolet said:


> I'm so glad I haven't bought any dairy goats yet! Up until recently I wasn't aware of the need for excellent testing & documentation when buying a goat. Southern has helped me a lot, with disease awareness & importance of testing & documentation.
> 
> As far as microscopes go. I have been told it doesn't need to be expensive or have lots of features.  That doesn't really help, though, because there are lots of options & price ranges out there.  I did a lot of research & then added what I know from my nursing experience, and ended up buying this one:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005APM5C6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage
> ...



Personally I do not care for any fecal testing on goats that is not McMasters method.

Here is why- Regular flotation with slide/cover ONLY shows you what kind of parasite and if you have any. It does not give you any real idea of the number, whether you have a high load or low load. Depending on how long you let the cover sit on the float will change how many eggs you see. McMaster method is formulated to give an accurate Eggs Per Gram Count. This is the info you need. Everything is measured to give you the information the see if you need to deworm, monitor only, and to see reduction.
 This is the most accurate way to tell if 
a) your dewormer works  
b) reduction % (you want 95%)
c) who is your parasite problem in your herd

20% of your herd/flock is responsible for 80% of the parasites. Find them and cull.

Using McMasters along with FAMACHA is most effective. You are not just looking at numbers but resistance... 2 kinds of resistance. Goats that just don't seem to pick up much is one type the other is how affected is the goat at what EPG Count. Some goats cannot handle a 450- 650 count. Another goat can maintain and do well at 1000 count.

We have seen goats at 1000 EPG that have screaming red lids (good) we have seen goats at 1200 at near white.

McMasters is EASY!

Here is a goat we evaluated- Goat was on HERBAL "dewormers" only faithfully given. - We see this all the time with those that use herbals. Nothing wrong with herbals but you still must monitor because once a load gets too high herbals cannot keep up.



 



 

Here are some pics using the MM


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## Southern by choice (Dec 18, 2015)

Not saying not to do the testing and if you own a dairy you must do the testing by law but many in North Carolina do not test for Brucellosis/TB because NC is an accredited free state

Has something changed?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/9/77.7
77.7Accredited-free States or zones.
(a)The following are accredited-free States: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas,Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, *North Carolina*, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, the Virgin Islands of the United States, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

pg 3 on this PDF shows NC free for 21+ years
http://www.usaha.org/Portals/6/Comm...tionalBrucellosisEradicationUpdate_Thomas.pdf


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## babsbag (Dec 19, 2015)

I think I read somewhere that ADGA is going to require TB testing for shows. But maybe that is only in certain states...of CA being one of them...always.

I don't show but I have to get my herd tested for the dairy.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 19, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I think I read somewhere that ADGA is going to require TB testing for shows. But maybe that is only in certain states...of CA being one of them...always.
> 
> I don't show but I have to get my herd tested for the dairy.



Wow. With this testing, because it is a Federal program, you MUST have a vet draw blood and fill out all paperwork to be submitted.
Wonder how expensive that will be for people.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 19, 2015)

You are supposed to test if shipping to certain states and I have not been doing that
It is required for ADGA  national show
Probably a good idea since we are selling milk


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## babsbag (Dec 19, 2015)

So it is only national shows and not all shows?  That makes more sense.  

Some of the local fairs here require TB testing for cattle.


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