# Testicles?



## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

I am new to goats, but definitely not new to animals in general. But when I got my little boy he was 1 1/2 weeks old. The lady banded him for me, which I now know shouldn't have been done when he was so young :/
But I assumed she knew what to do. Hes now about 9 weeks old and I swear I felt testicles! Obviously his scrotum is gone, but it's farther up, like if he was a kitten or puppy who had undescended testicles. Am I feeling testicles? Are they mammary glands??


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## Southern by choice (Jul 23, 2016)

i would have him checked by a vet


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## TAH (Jul 23, 2016)

x2


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

I have an appointment to bring both of them for a wellness check up on August 1st. I feel so bad for him though. I obviously didn't know enough when I got into this. Not only am I concerned about that, but I'm also gonna have to decide what to do about his horns. I knew it had to be done early, but I didn't realize it was within days of bringing him home. She never had him disbudded and/or told me it would need to be soon. I'm feeling really frustrated


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## TAH (Jul 23, 2016)

It isn't your fault you did your best as we all need to learn.

About the horn the vet can getrid of them.


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

TAH said:


> It isn't your fault you did your best as we all need to learn.
> 
> About the horn the vet can getrid of them.


Thanks! I know, I just feel bad for him, it should've been done right away. And now it'll be more traumatizing. And if she didn't get his testicles...he'll have to go through that again ;(
I also lost his sister about a week or so after I got them. She bloated...or something. I tried everything. Even called emergency clinic, but they couldn't help me. I'm soooo glad I found this page! Everybody on here's been great and more helpful then anyone else!


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## Latestarter (Jul 23, 2016)

It's really difficult when you're first starting out and don't have a reputable breeder to lead you right, or a mentor to continue to guide you. Your breeder really did you a disservice with regard to information and help. But, now you know. And when it comes your time to sell some kids, you'll remember all the help and info you didn't get, and hopefully you'll be just the opposite   Chin up! Don't beat yourself up. You're trying and learning as you go. You'll be fine, just takes time.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 23, 2016)

You really need a livestock vet. Dog and cat vets are not a good choice for goats.
Banding is not the best choice IMO. PAINFUL AND ALLOWS THE ROTTING DEAD FLESH TO REMAIN TIL IT FALLS OFF.

Sorry didn't mean to do caps- my computer is broken and I am working with what I have got. :/

We cut and the whole process is about 10-15 seconds and your done. No drama. 

You should have a fecal check as well. They want to look for parasites and Cocci.

Cocci is a kid killer! Your guy is the prime age for such a "bloom".


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> It's really difficult when you're first starting out and don't have a reputable breeder to lead you right, or a mentor to continue to guide you. Your breeder really did you a disservice with regard to information and help. But, now you know. And when it comes your time to sell some kids, you'll remember all the help and info you didn't get, and hopefully you'll be just the opposite   Chin up! Don't beat yourself up. You're trying and learning as you go. You'll be fine, just takes time.


Thank you! I definately don't regret getting them. I've fallen in love! They are like dogs. But yes, I would help a person any way I could cause I would also be helping the kids.


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> You really need a livestock vet. Dog and cat vets are not a good choice for goats.
> Banding is not the best choice IMO. PAINFUL AND ALLOWS THE ROTTING DEAD FLESH TO REMAIN TIL IT FALLS OFF.
> 
> Sorry didn't mean to do caps- my computer is broken and I am working with what I have got. :/
> ...


The vet I'm bringing them to sees cats, dogs, exotics and some live stock. He has a really good reputation. He's a couple towns away though. Really? So the cutting is a better option? The person I got my new female from suggested banding. Honestly, I just want it over quickly. I'll talk to him about that. I do know he only charges $50 to surgically remove them. Seems a fair price to me. I'm the veterinary assistant at our local humane society so when I first got him I did a fecal at work. It was negative. If they end up with coccidia what do I use? I use ponazuril for animals at work. It's a horse product. Wonder if I could use it for them? Thanks for your advice! I really appreciate it! Another question, do goats shed their coats like dogs do?


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## ldawntaylor (Jul 23, 2016)

Hi and welcome,

I'm sorry for the rough start.  To answer your question - yes they do shed their coats like dogs and such.  Some people even collect the shed hair for spinning yarn and such.  A time consuming process to say the least.

As others have said on other threads there is a huge learning curve on caring for livestock.  And this is a really good place to ask those questions that come up.  To paraphrase a teacher of mine from college the only foolish question is the one that doesn't get asked.

Personally I've had goats for about 9 years and I still have questions sometimes.

Again welcome,

Lisa


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

ldawntaylor said:


> Hi and welcome,
> 
> I'm sorry for the rough start.  To answer your question - yes they do shed their coats like dogs and such.  Some people even collect the shed hair for spinning yarn and such.  A time consuming process to say the least.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much! I'm so glad I found this page! It's been frustrating but also so much fun!  Excited to learn more, I'm even thinking of adding a third. But not until we get the horns and testicles taken care of on my boy


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## ldawntaylor (Jul 23, 2016)

From another post of yours I've got the notion that you have chickens as well.  There are quite a few of us like that.  Do you have particular breeds or just barn yard mixes?


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## Southern by choice (Jul 23, 2016)

Yes, a true livestock vet is best especially one that does considerable work with goats.

More often then not many dog/cat/exotics vets really do not have the base of knowledge to do much when a goat is in trouble. To add to that many horse vets and cattle vets are not that great either. Some are but it may take some time to find a vet you are comfortable with.

The dog/cat world of vets are starting to do things on a level of dogs/cats for livestock and that is NOT good for livestock animals in general. They are different areas of specialty. Keep in mind some vets do both cats/dogs and livestock. Much depends on your region.

Yes, cutting is fast and easy and far less trauma. Sedation should be used on older goats, but not on 2-3 month old goats. Goats are very sensitive to sedation and there can be long term issues.

Goats will shed their coats, goat kids will lose their fluff and start to sleek in the summer. 
We clip ours in the spring/summer to help them stay cool. 100 degree days here and  the goats are HOT! We also put fans up. We let their coats grow in for winter.

The Angora goat is a fiber animal. Most other goats do not have soft enough hair. We do have some Kikos that have a cashmere like coat that they shed out. It is THE softest hair ever.

I agree with @ldawntaylor there aren't dumb or stupid questions. When we don't know something we don't know something... it is as simple as that. Asking questions is how we learn.

As far as cocci... there are many products. *All are off label so must be vet recommended. *We use Baycox as preventative. Di-Methox is great for treatment. Corid is not great for goats but sometimes that is all one can find and that is what is recommended often by vets that aren't really goat vets. :/


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

ldawntaylor said:


> From another post of yours I've got the notion that you have chickens as well.  There are quite a few of us like that.  Do you have particular breeds or just barn yard mixes?


I have a couple different breeds. My oldest are my leghorns and red sex links. And I also have an Easter egger, my roo is a silver laced Wyandotte, and my newest chicks are buff orpingtons and australorps. I only have 10 total. I'm sure most people on here have big huge farms...I'm so envious 
How about you?


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Yes, a true livestock vet is best especially one that does considerable work with goats.
> 
> More often then not many dog/cat/exotics vets really do not have the base of knowledge to do much when a goat is in trouble. To add to that many horse vets and cattle vets are not that great either. Some are but it may take some time to find a vet you are comfortable with.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm starting to notice the lack of goat knowledge around here. Which is really surprising. We live in an area where people still farm. But I guess their livestock is mostly cows and horses. There's even a guy my husband works with who has goats and he tried to tell my him goat don't have four area to their stomach??? And if they bloat you should stick a garden hose up their anus??? Scary :/


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## ldawntaylor (Jul 23, 2016)

I'm on a small place.  I have 9 goats and 19 chickens at the moment.  I've got a variety of breed as far as chickens go.  With the goats I've got Toggenberg purebred and mixes.  The herd sire is a purebred.


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

ldawntaylor said:


> I'm on a small place.  I have 9 goats and 19 chickens at the moment.  I've got a variety of breed as far as chickens go.  With the goats I've got Toggenberg purebred and mixes.  The herd sire is a purebred.


Hahaha! If that's small, then I'm miniature 
My goats are Nigerian dwarfs. Not sure if I posted that earlier. I've wanted goats for so long but we have a boarding kennel, work other jobs, and have plenty of our own pets (two being handicapped) so hubby said no for a long time. Not sure what made him change his mind but he finally agreed. And after we lost the first female I took it really hard, felt like such a failure, I thought about selling my boy to somebody more knowledgable but he convinced me to keep him and to get another. I think he likes them


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## ldawntaylor (Jul 23, 2016)

Rescuechick76 said:


> Hahaha! If that's small, then I'm miniature



Compared to a lot of people here in rural Arkansas my place is small.  Less than 10 goats compared to the 50 my original goats were from.  Or more in the meat goat operations.  And compared to the chicken houses in the area my 19 birds is a tiny number.

I am blessed to have parents that want me to be independent in a rather non-traditional way.  They actually own the land I live on.  And my coop was a  "Christmas present" this past year.

This lifestyle has a lot to do with beginnings and endings and all that is between them.


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 23, 2016)

Sounds like you have wonderful parents. That's a pretty cool Christmas present! We only have 10 acres where we are. But I am so grateful to have what we do. I could never handle city life. Although I'd like to have more land and such, I love being able to feed my family from my garden and chickens. I'm hoping someday to use my goats for milk, but I've got a lot to learn first. 
I love this lifestyle we are in


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

Be careful about wanting to milk...it is addictive   8 years ago I bought 3 does and said "I can breed them and milk, if I like I can continue. If I don't I won't breed again and they can just be weed eaters." Fast forward...I have 40 goats and I am building a dairy.  Yes, an addict for sure. I also have countless number of chickens, I don't even count anymore.

As far as cutting vs. banding...it seems to be a regional thing. Everyone I know around here bands their boys, and I know a lot of goat breeders out here. I have no experience with cutting but that may be your only choice with a retained testicle. I have banded many a kid and never had a problem with infection, but I always make sure they have had their tetanus shots before I band just to be sure. I even do it in the summer and never had a problem with flies either.  Personally I couldn't cut them, and I'm sure not paying a vet to do them when I sell them for $50...not cost effective.  Not saying it isn't better or quicker, just not something I am not willing to do at home.


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## norseofcourse (Jul 24, 2016)

Hope the vet is good with goats, and all goes well with your little guy.

Most people around here band, too - but like SBC, I don't care to.  Instead, I use a bloodless castrator (aka Burdizzo).  It's quick and easy.  Fias Co. Farm has a page with good information about it.  The drawback is the piece of equipment is pricey (I got mine from Premier1), but taken care of it will last a lifetime, so it makes more sense for someone continuing to breed.

There is always more to learn with livestock, no matter how long you have them


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Be careful about wanting to milk...it is addictive   8 years ago I bought 3 does and said "I can breed them and milk, if I like I can continue. If I don't I won't breed again and they can just be weed eaters." Fast forward...I have 40 goats and I am building a dairy.  Yes, an addict for sure. I also have countless number of chickens, I don't even count anymore.
> 
> As far as cutting vs. banding...it seems to be a regional thing. Everyone I know around here bands their boys, and I know a lot of goat breeders out here. I have no experience with cutting but that may be your only choice with a retained testicle. I have banded many a kid and never had a problem with infection, but I always make sure they have had their tetanus shots before I band just to be sure. I even do it in the summer and never had a problem with flies either.  Personally I couldn't cut them, and I'm sure not paying a vet to do them when I sell them for $50...not cost effective.  Not saying it isn't better or quicker, just not something I am willing to do at home.


Hahaha! Yes, they are addictive. I already want more 
As for banding/cutting we were actually referring to horns. The vet will charge $50 to surgically remove the horns. But I was told by somebody else to put bands on them. I think I'll go the cutting route though. The woman I got him from did band his testicles (hopefully), but like I said I swear I feel testicles. So I think since his scrotum is gone, cutting would be the only option?  I'm not sure. I paid $75 for him and he wasn't disbudded, vaccinated, and possibly not banded right
But I've learned lots now so next time hopefully I'll be more prepared.


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> Hope the vet is good with goats, and all goes well with your little guy.
> 
> Most people around here band, too - but like SBC, I don't care to.  Instead, I use a bloodless castrator (aka Burdizzo).  It's quick and easy.  Fias Co. Farm has a page with good information about it.  The drawback is the piece of equipment is pricey (I got mine from Premier1), but taken care of it will last a lifetime, so it makes more sense for someone continuing to breed.
> 
> There is always more to learn with livestock, no matter how long you have them


Thanks! Like I told babsbag we were actually talking about horns. We went from testicles to horns! Lol!!


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## alsea1 (Jul 24, 2016)

Sounds like your jump into the goat world was a bit bumpy.
It takes a bit of time to learn all the stuff about care and feeding of goats. 
This forum helps tons. Seems there is always someone on it that has gone thru what you are with your animals and can offer great knowledge and personal exp. 

Here is my take on your points of concern:
Testicle problem.  If she failed to get the testicles when she banded him and they are stuck up inside his abdomen then this will be a surgical procedure. With all the risks of surgery.

If you leave him like he is he will likely be fine.  I'm guessing here but since the testes are still present he will produce the right hormones and his urinary system will continue to develop as it was intended.  Thus you won't have to worry so much about urinary calculi developing.
However he will also be a boy goat with all the fun of that but not likely be able to be a buck where it counts. The body heat in the abdominal area where the testes are likely at right now will kill off the sperm.

As for the horn issue.
Yes a vet can remove them, but it is not a simple procedure.  Those horns are a part of his skull now. 
In my opinion this would be a cruel thing to do to him now that the horns are well established.
Placing bands on the horns is also not a good idea.  You may end up with a pretty bad infection with this method.  Its possible to kill just the outer protective portion of the horn and it falls off only to leave exposed sensitive nubs that are in bad shape but not dead either. Goat will be in some pain and really need extensive doctoring.
Bands do not do the job quickly so it takes along time .

Now that we have access to all these wonderful vaccines don't forget to vaccinate.
Learn to do fecal exams so you can minimize using wormers and or using the right ones.

Good luck and have fun.


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

You were talking about horns ???    But I know the @Southern by choice does cut when wethering so that is how I made the connection. She tells me it is quick and easy.

About those horns. I agree that it might be cruel at this age, I have done it. But I also agree that it is necessary if he is going to be a lifelong member on your farm. It is surgery and it can be pretty nasty, there will be an opening into the sinus cavity until it heals but it is still doable if you find the right vet. Hard choice.

I have also seen goats with tennis balls taped to the end of their horns and also a piece of PVC pipe taped across the horns and extending out the sides so that the can't get caught in feeders and fences.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

At his age best to do it now
(Horns)
Once he is a big boy it will be much more difficult and the holes will be huge
I have Millie story under one of my articles
I'm on a phone and don't know how to pull it up


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

Here is an article about horns- I need to update
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/

At the bottom of the article it tells Millie's story _( I think the link starts on page 2 but you can go back and read the dilemma from the start)_
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/de-horned-2yr-old-doe-week-3-update.28257/page-2#post-358403


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

babsbag said:


> You were talking about horns ???    But I know the @Southern by choice does cut when wethering so that is how I made the connection. She tells me it is quick and easy.
> 
> About those horns. I agree that it might be cruel at this age, I have done it. But I also agree that it is necessary if he is going to be a lifelong member on your farm. It is surgery and it can be pretty nasty, there will be an opening into the sinus cavity until it heals but it is still doable if you find the right vet. Hard choice.
> 
> I have also seen goats with tennis balls taped to the end of their horns and also a piece of PVC pipe taped across the horns and extending out the sides so that the can't get caught in feeders and fences.


Maybe we were talking about two different things at the time...I don't know! Lol!! But either way I have both issues to deal with 
I've thought about leaving his horns, but the other one doesn't have any and I've heard so many stories about them getting stuck. I would be fine leaving them, but I worry they'll be a problem when he's bigger and I'd hate to do it then. You've done it? Would you do it again if you were in my position? And sorry if I'm confusing everyone


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

alsea1 said:


> Sounds like your jump into the goat world was a bit bumpy.
> It takes a bit of time to learn all the stuff about care and feeding of goats.
> This forum helps tons. Seems there is always someone on it that has gone thru what you are with your animals and can offer great knowledge and personal exp.
> 
> ...


I agree. That's the one good thing is it'll lower his risk for calculi. Hopefully :/ But I definitely don't want buck behavior. They are pets. So I don't need him for that purpose. I also agree with it being cruel to do his horns now. I'm really upset that the lady didn't tell me more. I told her over and over I was new to this. I asked lots of questions, but I thought I'd have more time for them to come through. I guess it was my fault to for not learning more before I went to get them. But I was so excited when hubby finally said yes, I figured I could learn more as they grew. But now I feel like the poor boy is gonna have to go through nasty stuff cause of it. I absolutely love him! I never thought you could bond with a goat like that. Lol! As for vaccinating, I did that on my own.  I work at our humane society and I was able to order vaccine through our supplier. Also did a fecal, but should probably run another. I have some decisions to make, but I'm so glad I'm getting advice from you all!


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Here is an article about horns- I need to update
> http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/
> 
> At the bottom of the article it tells Millie's story _( I think the link starts on page 2 but you can go back and read the dilemma from the start)_
> http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/de-horned-2yr-old-doe-week-3-update.28257/page-2#post-358403


Thanks for sharing. Do you know if they have to be a certain length before it can be done? I work with a vet who said it can't be done until you can grab onto them. How long did you have to keep bandages on her?


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

No they can be done before it is really about how each vet does the procedure.
For Millie- about 6 weeks til fully closed. 3weeks in the holes were substantially smaller. 

On a mature buck with big horns it could take a LONG time!
Bucks have a much LARGER base than a doe so getting it does sooner  would be better. If you have lots of flies than wait til the weather turns- like September. Fly strike is horrible. But you want to do it before full blown rut, because they pee all over themselves, and it would be nasty to deal with.


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> No they can be done before it is really about how each vet does the procedure.
> For Millie- about 6 weeks til fully closed. 3weeks in the holes were substantially smaller.
> 
> On a mature buck with big horns it could take a LONG time!
> Bucks have a much LARGER base than a doe so getting it does sooner  would be better. If you have lots of flies than wait til the weather turns- like September. Fly strike is horrible. But you want to do it before full blown rut, because they pee all over themselves, and it would be nasty to deal with.


He won't go through rut if we make sure the testicles are taken care of...right?


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## alsea1 (Jul 24, 2016)

I have a mixed herd. One doe has a full little set of horns. 
I have a buck that is horned and one dwarf that was disbudded.
I have my queen who has one horn.
I also have a doe that is disbudded.
All get along and I have not had any injuries to either handlers or fellow herd mates.  
My plan is to disbud nest year all doe kids. But since all males are slated for the freezer I only plan on banding and leaving horns alone
I have had to go get one out of the feeder. Since then the feeder was adj. so that would not happen again. 
I no longer worry much about the horns being problematic in my group.

Some bucks are smellier than others and behave differently.  My nigi dwarf is very mellow and peaceful even in rut.  My spanish buck is also quite easy going.

I got rid of the buck that was a monster part of the year.


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## sadieml (Jul 24, 2016)

Welcome to BYH, @Rescuechick76 !  We got our 2 nigie boys last Sept. when they were 2 wks.  They are our babies.  We are trying to get our little buckling to breed 2 does for a friend, right now, but they are full grown and therefore larger than Jaeger, so he is still a little timid.  He gets bolder with them each days, though, so hopefully by the time constant exposure to him brings them into season, he'll be more than up to the task!

I did a moderate amount of research before we got our boys, and still felt like I was swimming in the ocean when we actually got them.  So much of caring for goats is hands-on, experience-guided knowledge.  Until you are faced with an issue, you don't really know what to ask.  The wonderful BYH-ers you have already met, SBC, baymule, latestarter, goat whisperer, etc. literally helped me save our boys when they bloated around 8 weeks.  They are happy and healthy today because of these awesome people.  So sorry you didn't have a mentor at first, the breeder we got our boys from knew enough to get us through dis-budding (he burned them around 12 days), and banding on Janick at about 8 weeks (after his testicles dropped).  Now we're paying it back by breeding 2 of his does. PLUS, hopefully we'll get a doe out of one or both!  

Also, you'd be surprised about the make-up of the folks here.  Most of us really are small, backyard farmers.  We have just under 4 acres, not counting the dirt road, and so far just a small garden, 2 nigies (1 buck, 1 wether), and a total of 10 roos, hens, & drag queens, and one chick.  The drag queens are Maria and Valerie, sold as hens, apparently aged out, and so NOT laying, but they crow up a storm.  They do NOT act like roos, they act like hens, just crow and won't lay.  Ah, well, live and learn.  They sure are sweeties, though.  We're just taking things as they come, and thank the Good Lord, we found BYH and the wonderful people here to help with all of the rough spots.  Hang in there!  You're in for a bumpy and glorious ride!  This is really living!!!


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

Yes, castration generally takes care of that.

@alsea1  that is how it started out with us but things changed.
Our bucks are lovey and sweet but sorry no freaking way will I do horns on any of my dairy goat bucks. Kikos yes, dairy goats NO.

We had a family member years ago taken down by a larger Nigerian Dwarf mix with horns... had her on the ground horns ripped her pants right off her thigh/buttocks area when he went to go after her again. My sons flew over the fence and got hold of him but it took two very big older teens (near adults) to pull this boy back. The buck was only 100 lbs.

It wasn't our buck... it was given to us because the buck was crazy destroying fences and aggressive whenever a doe was in heat. Being the people had Nigies... that was every three weeks. He was at our place to go to processors. The day it happened a doe had just gone into heat and I guess the scent was there and wham. 
Those horns could have easily gored. NO way. No horns. No how.

I really liked horns. My vets kept telling me horns were a bad idea. But I liked them. I had no issues with them.
I learned. Thankfully no dead animals, no dead or maimed humans. 

Like OFA said- we learn as we go.

Sometimes what works for a few animals may not work later. We have 47 goats. or 42 or 43 or somthing like that... not taking chances.


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## alsea1 (Jul 24, 2016)

I would prefer no horns myself. 
But this is what I have.  I'm not much good at getting rid of the animals that are part of the breeding group that have proved themselves capable.   LOL  But if nec. I will.
Tennis balls could take the edge off of horns I suppose with no risk. Or the pvc bar. LOL Insta handle bar if nec.


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## Latestarter (Jul 24, 2016)

IMHO: 
I don't know why everyone is using the term cruel... It's NOT cruel at all.   It's a medical procedure that is for the better of the goat as well as the owners and anyone/thing else that will be around those horns. It would have been far better for all concerned had the goat been born polled, or been disbudded while it was doable. That's not the way it is, so no sense dwelling on those aspects. In the strictest sense, removing a goat's testes is also removing a body part the goat was born with and is done for the better of the goat and owners. Because that's become a routine procedure doesn't make it "less cruel" than removing horns.

It is not a simple procedure and there are risks associated with it (the surgical procedure), not the least of which being the anesthesia. Those risks increase in a major way as the goat gets older and the horns become a more fixed/permanent/major/thicker/heavier portion of the skull covering the nasal cavity. Even more of an issue with bucks, as they typically grow larger/heavier horns. Doing this procedure while the goat is still young gives the best possibility for quick and complete healing of the area as the goat is in "grow mode" and should heal much easier and faster than an adult having the same procedure done. 

As for when, and your vet says they have to be big enough to get hold of, it's probably because it's easier for him to hold them and maneuver the head/horns while removing them. Much harder to deal with if you can't get a'hold of them I imagine. Also, as was mentioned, you need to take other factors like flies into account and though it would be better in late fall when there are none (fewer - I've had flies show up in my garage in the middle of winter), the longer you wait, the more complex/difficult/invasive/dangerous the procedure becomes. Everything is about trade-offs. Since goats like to stick their heads in the dirt/mud/whatever, you'll need to keep the area covered (but "breathable") regardless of when it's done.

Every person has their own set of guiding principles and do what works best for them and their animals. Some things are pretty much universal like feeding them and providing water and shelter. Another is trying to keep them safe and secure. After that, it's all about choice. What works for one may not be the ideal for another. If you choose to have his horns removed it's not cruel and you're not cruel for doing so.   MHO


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

sadieml said:


> Welcome to BYH, @Rescuechick76 !  We got our 2 nigie boys last Sept. when they were 2 wks.  They are our babies.  We are trying to get our little buckling to breed 2 does for a friend, right now, but they are full grown and therefore larger than Jaeger, so he is still a little timid.  He gets bolder with them each days, though, so hopefully by the time constant exposure to him brings them into season, he'll be more than up to the task!
> 
> I did a moderate amount of research before we got our boys, and still felt like I was swimming in the ocean when we actually got them.  So much of caring for goats is hands-on, experience-guided knowledge.  Until you are faced with an issue, you don't really know what to ask.  The wonderful BYH-ers you have already met, SBC, baymule, latestarter, goat whisperer, etc. literally helped me save our boys when they bloated around 8 weeks.  They are happy and healthy today because of these awesome people.  So sorry you didn't have a mentor at first, the breeder we got our boys from knew enough to get us through dis-budding (he burned them around 12 days), and banding on Janick at about 8 weeks (after his testicles dropped).  Now we're paying it back by breeding 2 of his does. PLUS, hopefully we'll get a doe out of one or both!
> 
> Also, you'd be surprised about the make-up of the folks here.  Most of us really are small, backyard farmers.  We have just under 4 acres, not counting the dirt road, and so far just a small garden, 2 nigies (1 buck, 1 wether), and a total of 10 roos, hens, & drag queens, and one chick.  The drag queens are Maria and Valerie, sold as hens, apparently aged out, and so NOT laying, but they crow up a storm.  They do NOT act like roos, they act like hens, just crow and won't lay.  Ah, well, live and learn.  They sure are sweeties, though.  We're just taking things as they come, and thank the Good Lord, we found BYH and the wonderful people here to help with all of the rough spots.  Hang in there!  You're in for a bumpy and glorious ride!  This is really living!!!


Thank you! Yes...very grateful to have found this page!!


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> IMHO:
> I don't know why everyone is using the term cruel... It's NOT cruel at all.   It's a medical procedure that is for the better of the goat as well as the owners and anyone/thing else that will be around those horns. It would have been far better for all concerned had the goat been born polled, or been disbudded while it was doable. That's not the way it is, so no sense dwelling on those aspects. In the strictest sense, removing a goat's testes is also removing a body part the goat was born with and is done for the better of the goat and owners. Because that's become a routine procedure doesn't make it "less cruel" than removing horns.
> 
> It is not a simple procedure and there are risks associated with it (the surgical procedure), not the least of which being the anesthesia. Those risks increase in a major way as the goat gets older and the horns become a more fixed/permanent/major/thicker/heavier portion of the skull covering the nasal cavity. Even more of an issue with bucks, as they typically grow larger/heavier horns. Doing this procedure while the goat is still young gives the best possibility for quick and complete healing of the area as the goat is in "grow mode" and should heal much easier and faster than an adult having the same procedure done.
> ...


I don't want the horns, but I am worried about the procedure/recovery. This topic is similar to the opinions people have on declawing cats. I work at a humane society and some people are totally against it. I personally feel like if they are gonna live in my house for twenty years they are not gonna destroy my furniture. Yes, that too is better done while they are young and no it shouldn't be done if they go outside. Maybe I should look at it that way and I'll feel better about it. I'm just frustrated with the fact that it all should've been taken care of a long time ago.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> As for when, and your vet says they have to be big enough to get hold of, it's probably because it's easier for him to hold them and maneuver the head/horns while removing them. Much harder to deal with if you can't get a'hold of them I imagine.



That isn't how the procedure works.

Few have had this procedure done. When we did this our vet sedated but WE assisted. Having gone through this personally I would NOT hesitate to do this again if necessary. Having said that I have a buck whose scurs are massive- it was in the article. We use gigli wire on him and they are blunted horns basically. The breeder disbudded and that is how he came, with scurs. 

Disbudding by any breeder no matter how long they have been doing it is difficult with bucklings. More end up with scurs than don't. I will not dehorn this buck of mine but keep the strange growth in check.

Banding has been done and updates given by @BlessedWithGoats  and @OneFineAcre . Their experiences really helped me to have a better understanding. I thought it to be a horrible blah blah blah... because that is what I'd "heard". Their experiences have been contrary to what I had heard.

I tagged them in this post so maybe they will share the link or you can do a search and read aboit it. It may be a better option. 

BTW- I am not a fan of declawing... but I agree... rather see a cat declawed then it ending up in a shelter because of the destruction they can bring in a house. What's better 15 years of a cushy life with no claws or dumped because it destroys the place. I think the cushy life is better!


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## ragdollcatlady (Jul 24, 2016)

Your kid is still really young. If you do have to sedate for the testicle issue, I would simply do both procedures at the same time, while he is still young. He will be sedated and need pain medication and antibiotics for either procedure anyways. 

I have had horns and scurs removed from 7 goats I believe. 2 goats came with the horns and were 8 months to a year. Andy was getting his head stuck in the 4x6 cattle panel holes and was starting to struggle while it took 3 people to get his big head out. One to lift his body to reduce the force he was creating against us, one to maneuver his head and one to push him back. The others were kids and youngsters that I didn't burn well. I am still trying but sometimes it just doesn't work very well. On baby boer sisters, done the same night, same way, on one it worked great, the bigger one, however, grew scurs really quickly. One buck with scurs that were basically just horns, was tearing up my fences so he had to get done too. I forgot to take the camera when I had 3 of them done a few weeks ago. I don't care to do it, but I would rather have it done than have other goats get hurt or fences torn open, heads stuck in a fence on a day that gets over 100 degrees for hours on end.


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2016)

I would do it again if the goat is staying with me. My buck that I did was actually poorly disbudded and he had a scur that was like a unicorn horn. It left a nasty hole for quite a few months and it also got infected. I will tell you though that I discovered a great way to bandage him by myself, (he was a full grown buck). I took a sanitary pad with a sticky strip on it and stuck it to a long piece of gauze. I used the pad for horn bandages and pulled the long strips of gauze down and tied it under his jaw...it worked really well. The smaller he is the easier it will be to do, but you need to find the right vet.


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## norseofcourse (Jul 24, 2016)

Rescuechick76 said:


> Thanks! Like I told babsbag we were actually talking about horns. We went from testicles to horns! Lol!!


LOL - yep, I totally missed that!  When you started talking about cutting and banding, and said your vet only charged $50 to remove 'them', my mind was still on the title of the thread      I hope all goes well with him, at both ends...


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 24, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> LOL - yep, I totally missed that!  When you started talking about cutting and banding, and said your vet only charged $50 to remove 'them', my mind was still on the title of the thread      I hope all goes well with him, at both ends...


Lol!! Don't feel bad, sounds just like me!  And thanks!


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## sadieml (Jul 25, 2016)

I'm with @ragdollcatlady on this one.  I would definitely "shop around" a bit for a vet, and get both procedures done at the same time.  You'll have to be really careful with his head, to keep it clean, and may want to wait just until the worst of the summer heat is past, but I see no reason to risk 2 surgeries when both ends could be taken care of in one sedation.  I would think the vet would understand that, too--especially since goats are known for problems with sedation, as @Southern by choice pointed out.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Jul 25, 2016)

I have pictures of the dehorning process that I used, via the banding technique, if you'd like to look at them.  So far everyone seems to be doing well with having the horns taken off. The only one that didn't work was on a doe that was younger than 1 year old, her bands just eventually came off, and her horns have grown more. I may end up doing hers again this Winter. (If you do it in the Winter, there are less flies, and I think the cold helps stop the bleeding faster.)
http://www.backyardherds.com/thread...haya-a-gift-from-god.31042/page-7#post-417087


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## babsbag (Jul 28, 2016)

Did your boy see the vet yet?


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## Rescuechick76 (Jul 28, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Did your boy see the vet yet?


Not till Monday. Both him and my lil girl go for exams. I'm assuming I'll have to make another appointment to have things taken care of. But it'll be nice to find out what's gotta be done.


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## Rescuechick76 (Aug 1, 2016)

Well it's been confirmed...he still has two testicles
I guess I'm feeling kinda angry at the lady I bought him from.


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## babsbag (Aug 2, 2016)

Well isn't that just sweet. How in the world do you miss both of them unless of course he had 4.   Sorry, couldn't resist...I don't blame you for being upset. What does this mean as far as him being done too early? Is this maybe a good thing?

So now is it surgery time? What about the horns?


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## MrsKuhn (Aug 2, 2016)

Poor baby! I would be a little peeved also


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## Rescuechick76 (Aug 2, 2016)

It is a good thing as far as letting his urethra and penis develop. He actually wants me to wait a little bit longer (around Labor Day) to have it done. He wants me to wait until he's showing interest in my little female. As for his horns, he said they can be done at the same time. He talked about this time of year being bad with flies and how we'll wrap his head. We talked about lots of stuff, but one thing I'm confused about is how much they should browse. He talked about how big their area is and how much they get to eat. The area they are in isn't super big, and we want to make it bigger, but there's not really any green inside it. When we are outside we let them be loose and that's when they browse. Should I not let them? They area we want to make bigger will have green in it, should we not make them a bigger area? I'm confused...again. Lol!


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## misfitmorgan (Aug 2, 2016)

Rescuechick76 said:


> Well it's been confirmed...he still has two testicles
> I guess I'm feeling kinda angry at the lady I bought him from.



You know it is entirely possible she left the testicles on purpose. That used to be and still is by some common practice for Rams, called short scrotum ram. I have heard of people using this one goats as well, as it "may" be less painful. Theory is the extra body temp makes them sterile and they are considered whethered/banded. 

I have heard of short scrotum rams still being fertile but this was in cases where the scrotum has no been shorted enough and a small pouch was left behind.


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## misfitmorgan (Aug 2, 2016)

Rescuechick76 said:


> It is a good thing as far as letting his urethra and penis develop. He actually wants me to wait a little bit longer (around Labor Day) to have it done. He wants me to wait until he's showing interest in my little female. As for his horns, he said they can be done at the same time. He talked about this time of year being bad with flies and how we'll wrap his head. We talked about lots of stuff, but one thing I'm confused about is how much they should browse. He talked about how big their area is and how much they get to eat. The area they are in isn't super big, and we want to make it bigger, but there's not really any green inside it. When we are outside we let them be loose and that's when they browse. Should I not let them? They area we want to make bigger will have green in it, should we not make them a bigger area? I'm confused...again. Lol!



Personally i dont think they can have to much browse, at least ive never heard of it being a problem. Now to much pasture/grass can be if they go from dirt to lush grass otherwise no. There is a local guy here who has a small herd of 8 goats that live in the 4 acres of woods by his house, they seem to love it and he hasnt had any issues that he has mentioned.


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## babsbag (Aug 2, 2016)

Like @misfitmogan said, green grass or pasture is one kind of green, brush and vines is another. But being that they are young you might still introduce them to it slowly. When I let me does out into the back pasture in spring time and they have lots of fresh shoots on trees and poison oak to eat they may get clumpy poo for a few days, but never a real problem. 

I would make it bigger but maybe you could divide it to start with and each day let them into the new area for a little while longer just to make sure they adjust to the greenery slowly.


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## Rescuechick76 (Aug 2, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Personally i dont think they can have to much browse, at least ive never heard of it being a problem. Now to much pasture/grass can be if they go from dirt to lush grass otherwise no. There is a local guy here who has a small herd of 8 goats that live in the 4 acres of woods by his house, they seem to love it and he hasnt had any issues that he has mentioned.


What's the difference between browse and pasture/grass?


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## Latestarter (Aug 2, 2016)

Browse is sticks and twigs and leaves, & vines, UP off the ground... Graze, is grass/pasture.


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## babsbag (Aug 2, 2016)

And goats love browse, sheep love graze. Graze leads to worms and browse does not. 

But what @Latestarter said is the correct answer.


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## Latestarter (Aug 2, 2016)

Actually, to read some of the Sheeple's posts, I would guess that some sheep really like browse as much as goats. Go figure?


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## chiques chicks (Aug 2, 2016)

My goats are eating almost exclusively browse right now. They eat very little hay and I haven't given them feed in weeks. A wether and two non lacerating, not pregnant does.

Browse is why I have them!


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## norseofcourse (Aug 3, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Actually, to read some of the Sheeple's posts, I would guess that some sheep really like browse as much as goats. Go figure?


Thanks for noting that     Yep, some sheep love browse just as much.  It's partly due to breed, and partly what they grow up with.  My ewes, and their lambs, prefer the shrubs, brush, vines, and trees.  My ram, who was born and grew up on a farm that had primarily grass pastures, does like the browse but not to the extent the ewes and their lambs do.

There are lists of which breeds tend towards the 'browse' side, and those which tend towards the 'graze' side.  Although there's always a few who didn't read the list


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## misfitmorgan (Aug 5, 2016)

i know our Suffolk are fine with pasture but will browse when it is available.


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