# Severe Bloat (Sad Ending - Page 4)



## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

Okay, 
Monday: Our 2 month old Nigerian Dwarf buckling died from pneumonia that wasn't able to be treated in time. Vet said HighNote's fecal was clean.  We got home that evening and noticed later on(after the vet was closed) that Sheba & Oliva were coughing.

Tuesday Morning: Called the vet and told them the symptoms, they told us they were filling out a script for SMZ-TMP for cocci.  We went down and picked it up, gave it to all 3 kids and have been continuing to administer it, and will be for the next few days.

Yesterday: Noticed Minnie hacking(sounded normal - like hacking up cud). Sheba & HighNote acting 

Today: Minnie- hacking(a couple times in a row and then not again for 30 mins to an hour)... lack of appetite, lethargic(laying down most of the day, will stand for a few minutes at a time), reclusive, not drinking(except for what little electrolyte I have been able to shove down her throat via a syringe), appears to be empty(tried to poop, but nothing came out & belly does not feel firm from constipation)... I had given her Ivomec 1% Ivermectin yesterday, started her on Red Cell today... still don't know what is wrong with her.

Also, Minnie was bred to Falkor(recently found out that he might have CAE{clicking in his joints & stiff hips}) a little over 4 weeks ago... is it anywhere near normal for a doe to become lethargic in early pregnancy like some women can??


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Okay,
> Monday: Our 2 month old Nigerian Dwarf buckling died from pneumonia that wasn't able to be treated in time. Vet said HighNote's fecal was clean.  We got home that evening and noticed later on(after the vet was closed) that Sheba & Oliva were coughing.
> 
> Tuesday Morning: Called the vet and told them the symptoms, they told us they were filling out a script for SMZ-TMP for cocci.  We went down and picked it up, gave it to all 3 kids and have been continuing to administer it, and will be for the next few days.
> ...


No, that's not a normal part of pregnancy as far as I know.  What do you mean "hacking up cud?"  My goats sometimes make a quiet little wheeze when they bring up cud, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as hacking or coughing.  Were the kids in quarantine or was Minnie exposed to the new kids?  Considering the health issues with the other herd members I'd get her to the vet.  Particularly if she's already at the point where you feel it necessary to drench her to keep her hydrated.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

The "Hack...hack" that our goats make to "cough up" cud. Not sure how else I could explain it... but it doesn't sound like a cough(heard enough of those in the past week to spot the difference).
I just got a baking soda, molasses, probiotic powder, nutri-drench mix into her, suggested to me by another farmer to treat a possible acidic rumen... I wouldn't have thought there was an acidic rumen, but thinking back, the does all got the last of the mangos(not over-ripe) from our weekly produce "waste" bag a couple days ago... and there were around 6-9 mangos left.  :/ I hope this is the problem, and not some contagion brought in by the new kids!

The kids were all in the barn with the does, but in their own stall... the only time Minnie shared with them was while we were bottle feeding the kids(roughly 30 minutes per feeding of all 4 kids) during their first week or two here... which was 2-3 weeks ago.

Since giving her the Red Cell at around 3-4pm, she is standing for longer periods of time... she still seems off... not wanting to walk much, or really eat any of the buffet I provided(black birch, mullein, sorrel, whole pea vines{incl. pea pods}, 3 varieties of grass, oak sapplings, and a couple of flowering weeds she would normally hork down).. :/ but  definitely some better since this morning through afternoon.


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## Roll farms (Jul 14, 2011)

Have you taken their temp?  

I would give any w/ a cough / that are acting 'off' a shot of Nuflor...NOW.  You'll have to check Fiasco for the dosage.

I have had a couple act like that over the years, an old dairy goat farmer calls it, "Silent pneumonia" and it will kill them quickly.  They spike a high fever and then get a low temp, which shuts down the rumen.  B shot, Nuflor, probios, and drench w/ electrolytes.  If they won't eat, make a 'slurry' of fiber (oats, chopped hay, alfalfa, etc.) and feed that to them w/ a feeding syringe....You *have* to keep fiber in the rumen.

Good luck.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 14, 2011)

If you had one with pneumonia, then you could have others. A couple winters ago my whole herd got pneumonia. No symptoms were the same. Most didn't even have temps. Used Draxxin and it cleared right up. If you could get Draxxin from your vet, I would get everyone on it. I believe it is dosed at 1.1 cc per 100 lbs.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> The "Hack...hack" that our goats make to "cough up" cud. Not sure how else I could explain it...


Hmmm... never heard a hacking sound from our goats bringing up cud.  The most I've ever heard is a quiet, close-mouthed wheeze.  I agree with Elevan and Karen- you had at least one confirmed case of pneumonia in the smallish barn your herd shares.  Even in a well ventilated space that puts the others at risk and (cough or no) you have a doe that's off.  I'd treat her.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

Everyone keeps mentioning B shots, how do I get this for my herd?? Everywhere I have check is on indefinite backorder. Anybody want to overnight some to me??

What is Nuflor and where can I find it(please offer something other than TSC, as my TSC seems to be lacking in most of what you all mention their stores carrying)???

As for the feeding syringe... we are waiting for our shipment to arrive... should be tomorrow... if she continues the upward climb that she started this evening.. I may not need to tube feed her after all(which would obviously be the most desirable)


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 14, 2011)

Nuflor is Rx.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Nuflor is Rx.


Rx for what? lol Is it something that any vet could get for me? or only a livestock vet?  My primary care vet is 1.5 hrs away by the way... if Minnie does have a form of pneumonia I can't risk shipping stress on top of illness... chanced it with Jack, and he died.

As far as the Vit B shot goes... can someone tell me how much mcg, mg, or what not it has of which Vitamin B's so perhaps I can get the equivilant by using tablets or capsules meant for people instead???


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> As far as the Vit B shot goes... can someone tell me how much mcg, mg, or what not it has of which Vitamin B's so perhaps I can get the equivilant by using tablets or capsules meant for people instead???


Here's the label for Fortified Vitamin B Complex .  It's on indefinite backorder again...you might be able to get a couple of syringes from your vet but if not crush up some human pills and mix with yogurt and give orally.


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

Call your vet and see if he'll give you the Nuflor without you bringing Minnie in.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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Thanks for the link to the label Emily!! No can do on getting a couple syringes of it from the vet, they can't get any of it right now either... which I would think if anyone could get some, a vet would be able to get it.


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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Yes most vets I know have nuflor but they will probably want to diagnose first.

The fortifed vit. B complex is gone and out everywhere nation wide. No vets or feed stores around here have any. 

I was able to get me some from jeffers online but I checked again after I ordered and it is out now. 

My bottle says.....

Each milliliter contains......

Thiamine Hydrochloride B1 (100)mg
Riboflavin B2 (5)mg
(as Riboflavin 5/1- Phosphate Sodium)
Niacinamide (100)mg
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride B6 (10)mg
d-Pathenol (10)mg
Cyanocobalamin B12 (100)mcg
With Citric Acid and Benzyl 1.5% v/v (preservative). 

Adult cattle-1 to 2 ml per 100lbs of body weight. 

Calves, sheep, and swine-5ml per 100 lbs of body weight

Maybe repeated daily, if indicated. 

Hope this helps!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

I will repeat... what IS Nuflor??  I get that it is an Rx, but what is it used for?


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

A little to late I see.....


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I will repeat... what IS Nuflor??  I get that it is an Rx, but what is it used for?


Pneumonia infection or like infections/respiratory. 

It is an antibiotic. 

Here is a link on nuflor....that tells about what it is and you can order if you have an rx. Maybe your vet can fax a rx to them or you to get some? 

http://www.allivet.com/Nuflor-p/25561.htm


Have you tried penicillin?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

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The only antibiotic we have in stock on the farm right now is PenG Procaine, and the vet told us there is a much more efficient antibiotic than it, that is dosed orally every other day..??


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

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If you have to you can get Tylan over the counter from TSC to treat pneumonia.

Albon is another Rx that will treat pneumonia.

But I really think you should push your vet to give you the Nuflor.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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Just googled Tylan 200, it says to inject SQ over the ribs... does this mean pull the skin on her side to tent it and inject... or does this mean above her ribs/on her back...????

Vet is too far away to get anything to Minnie or Daisy ASAP... thinking we will go the Tylan 200 route... especially since I KNOW this is a product our TSC _actually_ carries!

IF it is pneumonia, would it be safe to give Momma(assuming she is within a week or two of kidding) a preventative dose to keep her from catching it too?


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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You can give it SQ anywhere you would give an SQ injection (tenting the skin).
Tylan 50  4 ml / 25#  SQ injection for 5 days 
Tylan 200 - 1 ml / 25# SQ injection for 5 days


But again...Nuflor is best if your vet will give it.


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## Roll farms (Jul 14, 2011)

For future reference, Nuflor (or excenel or Naxcel) are the 'big guns'.  

I've never had any luck w/ any of the tetracyclines or tylosin, or Pen G for treating URI / very sick goats, *unless* it was something like Tetanus or Listeriosis (which Pen G works great for).  I keep Pen G for wounds only, and just in case Tetanus or Listeriosis shows up.  

Nuflor for everything else.  

I buy a bottle every few years and I am THRILLED when I don't use it / have to throw it away because it's outdated....and I'm also thrilled when someone is sick and I have it on hand when needed.

HOWEVER, if tylosin or tetracycline is all you have access to, it's better than nothing at all...but I'd be getting a bottle of 'big gun' ASAP...my theory is: hope you never need it, but be glad you have it if you do.

Also, goats metabolize much faster than cattle...some vets will tell you something is one shot only or 1 shot every other day...Goats need it daily to keep it at therapeutic levels.

A GOOD vet that you've built a relationship with will sell you what you need to keep on hand, understanding that you may need it at 3 am on a Saturday.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

We will attempt to get the Nuflor tomorrow... can it be gotten through any vet? or does it have to be gotten through a livestock vet.??


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## Roll farms (Jul 14, 2011)

I have no idea...my vet does all animals...


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> We will attempt to get the Nuflor tomorrow... can it be gotten through any vet? or does it have to be gotten through a livestock vet.??


Nuflor is used in domestic animals (dogs and cats) sometimes too...so "in theory" you should be able to get it from any vet...if the vet will sell it to you.


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Also, goats metabolize much faster than cattle...some vets will tell you something is one shot only or 1 shot every other day...Goats need it daily to keep it at therapeutic levels.


Exactly.  Goats are not little cattle. They metabolize more like deer...if you want to have a vet compare them to something.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 14, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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I will try to get it from our local humane society first then... as it is a max of 40 minutes round trip... not a 3 hr round trip like it is to our primary care vet.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 15, 2011)

If your primary vet just treated the kid that died of pneumonia, he(she?) should have NO problem giving you the meds you want.  Is there a closer vet to you that perhaps he can call in a script for?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Is there a closer vet to you that perhaps he can call in a script for?


This is why I mentioned the potential possibility of the humane society.
There is a vet right near the humane society, but they have made it abundantly clear that they will not help us in any way when it comes to our goats.

If the humane society can't get the script/s for us, then our choices are either a vet 2 hr round trip away or our primary care vet that is 3 hrs round trip away... Like I posted on another thread earlier this year, the northern half of NH has virtually no vets willing to help with the everyday farm needs(like scripts to have on hand at the farm), and even fewer vets willing to help with livestock emergencies.  I believe the phrase is, "it's like pulling teeth".

Calling the H.S. now... woke up late(thankfully not too late for giving kids their medication).


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

Since the question seemed to get passed over, I will re-ask: IF it is pneumonia, would it be safe to give Momma(has a week or two left before kidding) a dose of Nuflor or Tylan200?? Nothing on either drug states to not give it to pregnant or lactating, but neither say it is safe for pregnant or lactating either....


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## Roll farms (Jul 15, 2011)

Yeah, I'd give it to her...better than letting her (and the kid(s) die...


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

Minnie's temp @ midnight: 103.5  @10:15 AM: 102.8

She is groaning, and has some froth in and around her mouth... Frothy Bloat?!?!  NEED HELP FAST!!!


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## redtailgal (Jul 15, 2011)

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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 15, 2011)

Is her left side actually bloated?   I prefer mineral oil over both corn and veggie oil, if you happen to have mineral oil on hand.  I'd give some baking soda, and I really like giving dish soap in cases of frothy bloat.  It really helps to break up the froth. Is this a mini goat? Not sure how much to give the little ones, but I'd start by giving at least 1 tsp of dish soap.


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## elevan (Jul 15, 2011)

FROTHY BLOAT RECIPE (standard size goat...cut in 1/2 for dwarf)
1/3cup water
1/3 cup cooking oil or mineral oil
1/2 cup liquid antacid
2 Tbsp baking soda
Mix and give orally


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

The vet didn't even have the opportunity to check Minnie over... before we could even get 5 minutes down the road she died.    

We continued down to the vet after moving her body to the back seat.  As Daisy & heavily pregnant Momma still needed to be checked over.  Got down there and the vet said they assume it was bloat, a necropsy probably won't show much of anything, Daisy looks great, normal temp, and sounds good, Momma definitely looks like she has just a week or two until kidding with at least twins, maybe potentially triplets, temp is on the high end, give her PenG Procaine(5ml IM 2 X daily for 5 days). Never done IM before! Anyone have a map of where to inject this way??


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## arabianequine (Jul 15, 2011)

I am fairly new to goats but wanted to say sorry for your loss. 

I usually give everything sq.


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## elevan (Jul 15, 2011)

Ah, Jaqui, I'm so sorry  



Here's a site with pictures and instructions for injections


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 15, 2011)

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear this.  My heart breaks for your loss.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Ah, Jaqui, I'm so sorry
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 Emily.  I think _one of_ the saddest things about Minnie's death, is that this means there will be no Minnie Falkor babies.   We were really looking forward to seeing what their babies were gonna look like.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> I am fairly new to goats but wanted to say sorry for your loss.
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Vet told us that PenG has to be givin IM... otherwise we would do SQ.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

Thank you to everyone for your condolences.

Please pray that no more of our animals get sick, and that those who are being treated would get into excellent health soon.


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

My heart breaks for all of you.....

Peace and Blessings!


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## Roll farms (Jul 15, 2011)

I don't suppose you picked up any Nuflor to keep on hand while you were there....?
Sorry you lost her....


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

Just got the call back from the vet on the necropsy results: Severe bloat, and a small obstruction in the bowels(not big enough to be considered the cause)... Now to decide what the best option is... spending the money on gas for the 3 hr round trip to go get Minnie's body and bury her ourselves, or spend the $75 for Minnie to go into group burial.. 

Oh yeah, vet also asked what we feed them, if there had been any changes etc, so I told them we feed goat feed, hay, produce scraps(including but npot limited to: corn husks, strawberries, beans & peas, celery, carrot, lettuce, apples, mango, and green peppers), the then told me that we should "only give them hay and water. They don't need anything else... you could get them a round bale of straw for them to nibble on, because goats love to nibble on things, but other than that they really don't need anything other than hay & water".
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...UHH.... since when!?!?!?!?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I don't suppose you picked up any Nuflor to keep on hand while you were there....?
> Sorry you lost her....


We asked for a script for it, but the vet disagreed and said no... we were lucky enough to buy a bottle of SMZ-TMP to keep on hand and get a script from them for BoSe. 

Oh, and they gave us the name and number for a different vet that is a little closer to us, that _can_ make farm visits to Ossipee, NH... looks like we still don't have a primary care vet after all.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 15, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Vet is too far away to get anything to Minnie or Daisy ASAP... thinking we will go the Tylan 200 route... especially since I KNOW this is a product our TSC _actually_ carries!


I highly recommend to folks that if they are aware that there is a limited selection of commonly used non-prescription meds available in their area that you order them online and stock your medicine cabinet before there is an emergency.

The rumen flora takes time to adjust to new foods.  Too much of any new food (particularly fruits- like mango) fed inconsistently and without working them up slowly could easily have caused bloat.  I'm not against feeding whole foods, but the rumen is finely tuned and should be treated with care in order to remain balanced.  While the vet missed the mark in suggesting that goats required only hay and water, it still affords an opportunity to examine the safety and effectiveness of your current nutrition management.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 15, 2011)

I am so sorry   I hope you have a better day tomorrow.

As for the IM injections-If you follow the link to this book on Amazon.com and check out page 169, they give a visual on injections and how to do both SQ and IM (yes, I own "Goats for Dummies"  )


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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We are thinking it was either the dose of Ivomec she got 2 days ago or the alfalfa we picked up and started feeding a couple days ago that caused the bloat... and not the produce scraps/trimmings/"waste" which they get for 3-4 days in a row every week.
The mangos were available  in the bucket of scraps Friday through Sunday, the alfalfa was given(mixed in with their normal hay) Monday & Tuesday, Wednesday she got a dose of Ivomec 1% Injectable for cattle(given orally, as suggested), she *really* started acting odd yesterday, so I gave the molassess/baking soda/nutri-drench mix, and she started looking better... So I gave her a selection of her normal faves(molasses misted alfalfa, regular hay, a black birch branch, etc)... I wasn't expecting her to be so horrible this morning... though looking back I should have only given her the regular hay until she was back to 100%.

JYK, our other 2 does(Momma & Daisy) are just fine, except for a cough that come to find out is due from the dustiness in the barn(getting a box fan installed in the loft window tonight)... and they ate just as much of the mango and other produce as Minne.  Momma has an elevated(not dangerous) temp, vet said more than likely due to stress from the drive down, which is why we are either starting her on a 5ml 2X a day PenG Procaine therapy for 5 days(as suggested by the vet)...  *or* Ibuprofen or Asprin therapy.
We would prefer to go with something like Ibuprofen or Asprin, where she might kid within a week's time... and fear the safety of her unborn kids with giving Penacillin.


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## elevan (Jul 15, 2011)

Some goats are more prone to bloat than others...she may have been one of them...you really haven't had her that long to know if she was one.

Ibuprofen should NOT be used more than 48 hours MAX (I go by a rule of 24hrs) or it can cause damage to the liver of the goat.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 15, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Some goats are more prone to bloat than others...she may have been one of them...you really haven't had her that long to know if she was one.
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We are keeping an eye on her temp, if she is still a bit warm come morning, we will go pick up a bottle of asprin(unless the enteric coated kind is safe to give goats?  ) and administer that to her. We decided against ibuprofen after doing a bit of google-ing and discovering the list of harm that can come from giving NSAIDS.
After more thought, we really don't feel comfortable giving antibiotics to her for just stress from "shipping", if she had an infection, that would be a different story. Better to save the doe, than lose doe & kids, right?


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## Goatmasta (Jul 15, 2011)

Livinwright --- What are the risk of giving PenG to a expecting doe?


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## maggies.family (Jul 15, 2011)

I was reading this thread last night before bed.  Today I was interviewing teachers at school and kept thinking about Minnie and how she was doing.  I am so sorry for your loss.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Livinwright --- What are the risk of giving PenG to a expecting doe?


x 2

I don't remember ever reading that Pen G can be unsafe for pregnant does.  Only Tetracyclines.  Given the recent events I'd be in "better safe than sorry" mode myself.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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I've never heard of Ivomec creating an issue with bloat.  Fresh cut alfalfa, on the other hand, I've seen plenty of references to it causing bloat.  Was it this year's hay?  If it is I'd store that alfalfa for a couple months before trying to feed it again.

I know your goats get produce scraps every week BUT are they always the same scraps?  You can't lump "produce" all together as one food item in terms of the development of rumen flora... If this week you have an excess of broccoli and next week you have an excess of mango those are not the same foods.  Your other goats may have had access to the same amount, but that doesn't mean that if one goat bloated they're all going to at the same time.

This could easily have been a compounded problem... a little of this food they're not used to, a little of that food they're not used to- that can add up to a rumen full of foods for which the rumen doesn't have the appropriate bacteria to digest properly.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jul 16, 2011)

I also give lots of random produce.  Pounds and pounds of it at times. But we have 3 different supplements that have probiotics in them and I tend to top dress every couple batches of produce or hit their grain with it every so often to make sure their rumens are up to the task.    (The sticky juicy fruit is also a great way to get AC and other stuff into them)


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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The produce bags we get from hannafords are pretty predictable as far as contents go... one time we found a papaya in the mix and gave it in small amounts(seeds went to the chickens)
Once there were 2 cherimoya fruit.. same deal, a little bit at a time.. the tropical fruit really is the only thing unpredictable in the mix.
Everything else is greens(lettuce, sometimes cabbage & broccoli(given in moderation), greeb & yellow beens, chard, escarole, kale, chickory, celery, peppers are all standard unsurprising items.
While the alfalfa way not fresh(dried, cut, and shrinkwrapped), we still believe it was either this or the oral administered Ivomec that was the culprit.
PS: If anyone reads my comments in the feeding section, they will know that our herd gets Probiotics regularly to keep their rumens functioning properly.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

maggies.family said:
			
		

> I was reading this thread last night before bed.  Today I was interviewing teachers at school and kept thinking about Minnie and how she was doing.  I am so sorry for your loss.


 thank you


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Livinwright --- What are the risk of giving PenG to a expecting doe?


uhh... milk withdrawal time, and giving antibiotics for stress is not something we agree with.
We can give her lavender and other supplements for stress, that won't cause  her babies to ingest antibiotics unneccessarilly.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright --  Ivermec does not cause bloat.  Too much produce will.  I have been drenching ivermec for years and not one time have I ever had a bloat issue with ivermec.  It is an unfounded idea.  If you will look at the thread on feed cost, you will see that a proper "goat feed" ration with hay, minerals, and meds is not that costly.  I would suggest goat feed.  I have never had a adult goat bloat on hay and goat feed.  As far as that goes I have never had an adult goat bloat period.  Take a good look at your feeding practices.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

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That is not a risk in my opinion, the small amount of pen that might actually get to the kids will not hurt them in anyway.  However, the illness of the doe will.  That is the risk here not meds.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Livinwright --  Ivermec does not cause bloat.  Too much produce will.  I have been drenching ivermec for years and not one time have I ever had a bloat issue with ivermec.  It is an unfounded idea.  If you will look at the thread on feed cost, you will see that a proper "goat feed" ration with hay, minerals, and meds is not that costly.  I would suggest goat feed.  I have never had a adult goat bloat on hay and goat feed.  As far as that goes I have never had an adult goat bloat period.  Take a good look at your feeding practices.


Not every goat is the same, much like people. You cannot exclude the possibility that the Ivomec is what caused her to bloat just because none of your animals have.

You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not suggest that our farm's feeding practices are in any way harming our animals! If you look at every thread I have posted on regarding what we feed our goats, you will see that they get Noble Goat or Dumor pelleted goat feed, Probiotic podwer, Free choice: Browse, Manna Pro Goat Mineral, salt block, water and good quality hay. So, unless you are seriously suggesting that it takes a goat 3-4 days to process produce(mostly corn husks), it was not the produce that caused her to bloat. 

As I stated previously, all of our animals get produce for 3-4 days every week, and none of them have EVER had a problem with it. Please remember what the moderators & administrators say,  which is that we are to respect each other's feeding & handling practices.  
Suggestions - I don't mind.
Being told that I am causing harm to my animals when I most certainly am not- THAT I mind.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Goatmasta said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## helmstead (Jul 16, 2011)

I *suggest* that your farm's feeding practices killed your doe.  Ivermec doesn't cause bloat, but it CAN cause sudden anemia from worm-dump, which by your vet's account is not what this doe died from.  Instead, she died from bloat, which was caused by something in her diet (and, no, orally administered Ivermec doesn't count as part of the diet).

The sad ending here is that you're not listening to the people trying to help you avoid killing any more of them. 

Feed the scrap to your chickens...hopefully they won't get sour crop.


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## elevan (Jul 16, 2011)

You are trying to reduce your farm's expenses when it comes to feeding pelleted grain by providing them with produce scraps from your local grocery (?)...and that I can certainly understand.  You're also admitting fairly new to goats and their nutrition...please understand everyone here wants to help.  

The produce that we humans choose to eat is often "richer" than what your typical goat would be used to.  Diet is the cause of bloat...not medicines.  So Ivomec wasn't the cause here - Diet was...whether it was the molasses misted alfalfa, the produce trimmings or whatever...but it was food that caused her to bloat.

Minnie was fairly new to your farm, so you didn't know if she had a predisposition to bloat (some goats do).  And you believe that she was recently settled...hormonal changes can change the "ballgame" in any species and could have made her more susceptible to bloat even if she wasn't before.

You mentioned that the bulk of this last bit of produce trimmings was corn husks.  Corn husks can ferment rather quickly....which is why some farmers use it to create silage.  The corn husks could have begun fermenting without your realizing it...especially if they were in with "wet" produce trimmings.  You admitted you feed those trimmings over several days - plenty of time to start fermenting.  Fermented feeds are not good for goats and WILL cause bloat.

I strongly suggest that you step back and re-evaluate.  Seeing posts about deadstock breaks everyone's hearts....we wouldn't be saying this if we weren't trying to help.  I know that "knowing" it was the produce is gonna make you feel like "you" killed her.  Have a cry and learn from it.  We all make mistakes whether we're just starting out or into it a while...it becomes a tragedy when you don't learn from them because failure to learn from your mistakes will result in them being repeated.


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## NDgal (Jul 16, 2011)

I agree, I have never read nor heard of Ivermec relating to bloat. I'd tend to go with the produce - just because no other goat bloated/obstructed on this, doesn't mean this particular individual didn't handle it well on that occasion and might have been more sensitive. 
As for Pen G only IM - I've given it SQ for years and it's always been effective. There are very few meds you can't SQ - mainy hormones.
At any rate, I am so so very sorry for your loss.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> You are trying to reduce your farm's expenses when it comes to feeding pelleted grain by providing them with produce scraps from your local grocery (?)...and that I can certainly understand.  You're also admitting fairly new to goats and their nutrition...please understand everyone here wants to help.
> 
> The produce that we humans choose to eat is often "richer" than what your typical goat would be used to.  Diet is the cause of bloat...not medicines.  So Ivomec wasn't the cause here - Diet was...whether it was the molasses misted alfalfa, the produce trimmings or whatever...but it was food that caused her to bloat.
> 
> ...


I truly believe that some of the people here want to help, however there are others who only wish to add insult to injury.
We may be "new"(owning/raising goats for a year), but it does not mean that we have not done any research. I do not care for the overwhelming air of "I know everything and you are an idiot" that is being thrown in our direction by certain members here.

We have not said that we give produce to reduce the cost of feeding our animals.  We offer produce for these reasons: 1) it keeps them from getting pasture bloat come spring, 2) Added nutrition to keep them in prime condition, 3) for the sheer fact that they enjoy it. Yes, it is a bonus that the produce they get is at no cost to us.

I will restate: The last produce minnie had/ate was on Sunday. She had the plain alfalfa hay(dried, cut & shrinkwrapped{not molasses misted} from TSC- new to her diet) on Wednesday. This was a small amount(roughly 2 cups) mixed with their normal hay, and everyone ate it. She didn't show signs of bloat until Thursday(4 days after the produce).

The corn husks are nothing new(in every bag), and go to the goats the same day they are removed from the ears.


To all:
Since no one here thinks that Minnie could have had a bad reaction to the Ivomec 1% Ivermectin injectable for catte given orally, the *only* other change to her diet was a small amount of the straight dry, cut & shrinkwrapped alfalfa hay that we puchased at TSC.  Everything else she ate was not abnormal food stuffs for any of our goats.

Also, our farm is not the only one on here that gives produce in heaps to their goats without having any issues.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Im sorry you lost her...but I have to agree with everyone else here on the feeding practices that caused the bloat and absolutley not the ivomectin.   As in a prior post you explained that the produce will be somewhat varied from week to week.  And just a slight change like that can absolutley, positively cause bloat in a goat very easily.   I have no doubt in my mind.  And please dont be hurt or offended by people trying to help you.  None of us like to hear of dead goats ever. We all love goats and dont try to help and make suggestions to be mean or offensive.  Please dont dismiss this information! Its important information!! Very important.  A rumen needs a certain balance...and it go off very easily.

Your vet was close to correct in saying that goats dont need much more than hay and water.  I would of said a good quality hay, water and loose minerals and grains when working the goats ie milking etc.  Many, many people dont grain their bucks ever...maybe in rutt to keep condition on..but thats it. 

In the wild...a goat will never eat iceberg lettuce, brocoli, mangos etc,  so there is no need to feed these items to them.  They will browse on blackberry bushes, various trees and some weeds in meadows etc.  So please dont think produce is a nesscessity for them...they are not.  Besides the fact the pesticides that exsist in HUMAN produce is never good for them.  Additionally scraps from the grocery stores can include molded items which will kill your goaties as well and is a BIG NO NO!!! 

*PLEASE take this advice*...no one is trying to say your intention was to harm your goats. Your intentions were obviously very good!! But they are accurate in stating that the feeding practices you have should be reviewed and changed.  I agree with that.  It is important to learn and understand how the rumen works....it can go off soooo fast...but can be repaired with the knowledge on how that rumen works.  

When you are dealing with bloat...you do not allow the goat to stay down...you message that side hard!! Not like burbing a baby at all...like getting a deep body massage. Push into the rumen and you walk em...and walk em...you stand them up on thier hinds and you get that gas moving.   

Again I am soooo sorry you lost her.  But please put your pride and emotions aside.  Which I know is hard at times.  But they are right...it was'nt the ivermec at all..and it is the feeding practice...so please just listen to people who have owned goats for years and have made mistakes to.   

No one is judging you...just trying to inform you that changes in feeding practices is a must to keep a healthy herd and to keep from losing anyone else.

FYI  Weekly dose's of probiotics will NOT prevent bloat.  Just so you know.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> FYI  Weekly dose's of probiotics will NOT prevent bloat.  Just so you know.


I couldn't agree more.  The rumen's microflora are specific to the foods they're eating.  Probiotics are not intended for (or effective at) preventing bloat caused by rapid dietary changes.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I do not care for the overwhelming air of "I know everything and you are an idiot" that is being thrown in our direction by certain members here.


:/

I get the sense that no advice is actually desired in this case.  Maybe the information given will benefit some of the lurkers and newbs at least...


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## redtailgal (Jul 16, 2011)

.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

What I neglected to post in the necrtopsy results post, was that the vet waited a couple hours before doing the necropsy(where minnie had already been dead for roughly 1.5 hrs when we reached the vet, not so sure it was severe bloat).  We all know how a ruman bloats after death.  The vet said that the obstruction in her bowel _shouldn't_ have been large enough to cause an issue, however, I had seen Minnie try to poop the night before she died and nothing had come out. Nothing.

Like I said, since apparently it couldn't possibly have been a bad reaction to the Ivomec, it HAD to have been the new alfalfa from TSC.

I do not see how it could possibly have been the produce given to her *4 days prior* to her showing any sign of bloat.  This is not a matter of pride, but of clear facts.

Also, I do take a bit of offenseat the fact that anyone would think that I wouldn't check over any item for potential mold, or any forein objects, prior to giving it to my animals.  This is a animal safty 101 thing. We NEVER feed moldy items or even items that are squishy from "over ripe"-ness.

I understand that if they do not have normal access to an item, it can wreak havok... like pasture scours & bloat for example, which I know more than a few members here have an issue with every spring. It comes from their " MUST HAVE GREEN THINGS" impulse if they do not get green things through the winter. However, if they are given green things through the winter(like my herd does), they will not get pasture scours or bloat come spring.

Again, up until this new alfalfa hay, none of our goats have ever had an issue with scours or bloat from eating the produce we offer.  And the only case of scours we had this year were with HighNote, and it was due to cocci.


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## elevan (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_
I could have swore that you posted in another thread that you gave the produce as a way to reduce feed costs...my apologies on implying that then..._

As to the hay, I guess I'm confused because you're stating 2 different things in the same thread...
From post #48 this thread:


> So I gave her a selection of her normal faves(*molasses misted alfalfa*, regular hay, a black birch branch, etc)... I wasn't expecting her to be so horrible this morning... though looking back I should have only given her the regular hay until she was back to 100%.


From post #66 this thread:


> I will restate: The last produce minnie had/ate was on Sunday. She had the plain alfalfa hay(dried, cut & shrinkwrapped*{not molasses misted}* from TSC- new to her diet) on Wednesday. This was a small amount(roughly 2 cups) mixed with their normal hay, and everyone ate it. She didn't show signs of bloat until Thursday(4 days after the produce).





> We offer produce for these reasons: 1) it keeps them from getting pasture bloat come spring, 2) Added nutrition to keep them in prime condition, 3) for the sheer fact that they enjoy it. Yes, it is a bonus that the produce they get is at no cost to us.


1: How is fresh spring pasture gonna be a worse cause of bloat than a bag of rich produce trimmings?
2: If you're feeding a pelleted feed and offering loose minerals, they are getting the nutrition that they need without adding a bonus for them.
3: Hate to say it but that's how America became know as "The fattest nation" because we overindulge in what we love to eat...and we tend to offer too many "treats" to our animals too.


Maybe you're providing more information that what is needed to help you and confusing things.  What did Minnie eat in the 24 HOURS before she bloated??


Regardless, I think you should re-evaluate things...and I'm sorry if that offends you...but please step back from your pride.  And I know that there are people on this forum who you but heads against (me too) but they too are trying to help.  NO ONE wants to see anyone's goats die...everyone is here to share / learn / help or why the heck would we waste our time?  I know you're hurting and feeling ganged up against...that's not the case, we're only trying to HELP you AND your goats.  Period.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Not every goat is the same, much like people. You cannot exclude the possibility that the Ivomec is what caused her to bloat just because none of your animals have.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but do not suggest that our farm's feeding practices are in any way harming our animals! If you look at every thread I have posted on regarding what we feed our goats, you will see that they get Noble Goat or Dumor pelleted goat feed, Probiotic podwer, Free choice: Browse, Manna Pro Goat Mineral, salt block, water and good quality hay. So, unless you are seriously suggesting that it takes a goat 3-4 days to process produce(mostly corn husks), it was not the produce that caused her to bloat.
> 
> ...


I HIGHLY RECOMEND YOU READ THIS INFORMATION.  YOU ARE CAUSING HARM TO  YOUR ANIMALS BY TAKING OFFENSE AND NOT LISTENING TO SOUND, VALID INFORMATION!!  

http://kinne.net/bloat.htm

EVERYTHING YOU ARE DISPUTING IS CLEARLY STATED HERE AS CAUSES OF BLOAT.   Feeding practices is what ABSOLUTLEY causes bloat!! Not medications or wormers. Please dont let your emotions run away with you.  Who cares if someone offended you.  WHAT  IS MOST IMPORTANT HERE IS THE HEALTH OF YOUR HERD...NOT YOUR PRIDE!!   I really wish you would come around and forget about being offended.  Personally Im kinda offended that you wont hear people out and ignore things that personally offend you to save the life of a goat.  I think your a better person than this..and I think you really love your goats...so PLEASE relax and open your mind to these suggestions.  We have all made mistakes and lost animals...but take the advice and prevent from losing anyone else. 

I hope for you and you herd...you can relax your emotions and listen.  Google it if you dont want to listen to people on this forum.  But please get the info somehow.


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## mlw987m (Jul 16, 2011)

I bookmarked the link above, thank you - Also, I am so sorry for your loss


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

I sorta regret bringing up the alfalfa as a potential cause, so just to clarify why I mentioned it to begin with is that I've seen references to FRESHLY CUT/BALED alfalfa as a cause of bloat.  I'd be highly surprised if baled and bagged processed alfalfa was a culprit UNLESS the goat wasn't used to eating it or the quantity was rapidly and dramatically increased.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> 1: How is fresh spring pasture gonna be a worse cause of bloat than a bag of rich produce trimmings?
> 2: If you're feeding a pelleted feed and offering loose minerals, they are getting the nutrition that they need without adding a bonus for them.
> 3: Hate to say it but that's how America became know as "The fattest nation" because we overindulge in what we love to eat...and we tend to offer too many "treats" to our animals too.


I could'nt agree more Elevan...and Im and done commenting on this post.  It seems more important to be right and split hairs about statements made and retracted and changed than the actual health and life of the goats.  So I choose not to participate in this any longer...cuz in the end...the only ones that are hurting are the goats and thats dishearting to me.

PS I just want to add...that I was just accused of causing the death to her goat on a facebook post..by suggesting to her the other night, when her goat was down,  that it was bloat...and to begin treating the goat with baking soda and molasses mix to help treat the bloat.  I was told her vet said that the mixture caused the frothy bloat and should never be done.  It is the most ridiculous statements Ive ever heard.  

So I just wanna to explain WHY I am no longer participating in this circus.  Sorry all other BYHers...but Im just a little offended by this all.


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## kstaven (Jul 16, 2011)

I think the OP has heard the advice enough times folks. Although of value, the tone of the some advice and accusatory commentary does not need to be included and does nothing to help. 

What I have not seen asked in  the history of this thread is one person who clearly asked: "What is growing on the property the goats may be eating at this time of year?" I think all of us know that many times it is not one item on its own in the diet that creates an issue, but the combination of several that can cause a huge issue.

So while it is well established that diet and bloat are most times synonomous restating this over and over does nothing to help or educate the OP or others who read this thread. 

This board was established to educate and assist the animal owner and expose them to the multiple ways of tackling problems. It was never meant to be a my way is right and your wrong debate forum.*Best we all remember that when posting.*

Kurtis
Moderator


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

*So everyone knows*, it was not* us *that said that giving molasses mixed with baking soda makes regular bloat turn into a severe case of frothy bloat. It was in fact *Dr. Murdock at Pembroke Animal Hospital:* a small ruminant veterinarian... If anyone disagrees with this, please take the issue up with her!  And your 3rd grade science teacher! If I had known before hand that molasses was an acid, I would have disregarded the advice of adding molasses to the baking soda, and would have just mixed the baking soda with water. 

Do the experiment sometime, and find out the results for yourself.

I am done with this forum, and the "I know it all's "Who obviously don't, but think they do, and get away with trashing other members' practices continually! This is not the helpful forum that it once was. Sad.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jul 16, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> I think the OP has heard the advice enough times folks. Although of value, the tone of the some advice and accusatory commentary does not need to be included and does nothing to help.
> 
> What I have not seen asked in  the history of this thread is one person who clearly asked: "What is growing on the property the goats may be eating at this time of year?" I think all of us know that many times it is not one item on its own in the diet that creates an issue, but the combination of several that can cause a huge issue.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Kurtis, for your intervention here, but I am still done with the forum at this time.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> *So everyone knows*, it was not* us *that said that giving molasses mixed with baking soda makes regular bloat turn into a severe case of frothy bloat. It was in fact *Dr. Murdock at Pembroke Animal Hospital:* a small ruminant veterinarian... If anyone disagrees with this, please take the issue up with her!  And your 3rd grade science teacher! If I had known before hand that molasses was an acid, I would have disregarded the advice of adding molasses to the baking soda, and would have just mixed the baking soda with water.
> 
> Do the experiment sometime, and find out the results for yourself.
> 
> I am done with this forum, and the "I know it all's "Who obviously don't, but think they do, and get away with trashing other members' practices continually! This is not the helpful forum that it once was. Sad.


FYI Molasses is not an acid...it is listed having alkaling properties.   Ive have posted this not be combative but moreover to be informative to others who may be viewing this post.  Baking soda, molasses and water mixtures are used very often to begin treatment for bloating in goats.   I personally have used it for years in the spring when fresh browse is appearing and my goats get a mild bloat from the new greens after the winter months. I have never lost a goat from bloat nor has this mixture ever caused a frothy bloat in any of my goats over the years. 

ALKALIZING PROPERTIES:

Alkaline Antioxidant Water
Apple Cider Vinegar
Bee Pollen
Fresh Fruit Juice
Green Juices
Lecithin Granules
Mineral Water
Molasses, blackstrap
Probiotic Cultures
Soured Dairy Products
Veggie Juices


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jul 16, 2011)

> I think the OP has heard the advice enough times folks. Although of value, the tone of the some advice and accusatory commentary does not need to be included and does nothing to help.


Thanks Kstavin - well said.


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## freemotion (Jul 16, 2011)

Livinwright, I wish you'd stay.  I wish I'd been here on this thread earlier to defend you.  I'll say it now:  This is NOT the appropriate time or place to be taking such a tone with a grieving person!  Sheesh!  It is like going up to the relatives at a funeral and telling them they should have been more attentive to the deceased.  Then quoting something they said earlier as proof.

LWF, I did note that you said the produce was given four days earlier and I can't see how that could cause bloat so many days later.  You did everything you could to save her and I applaud you.

I feed produce, too, when I have it.  Lotsa pumpkins in the fall/winter.


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## kstaven (Jul 17, 2011)

No need to defend. Just hit the "report" button so I can give the new system a good test drive.


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## NDgal (Jul 19, 2011)

I  too wish LW would decide not to leave.


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