# "Lammie" sheep? goat? Geep? 🧐



## Amelia (Mar 7, 2022)

Hello!
My Mom has been raising goats and sheep for almost 30 years, in the same fields but they tend to do their own things. Nothing like this has happened before, here. Pure bred Kathadin sheep and pure bred Nubians and Saanens tend to have different interests and they never mingled much before this past year.
Despite her efforts to keep him away it seems that her Katahdin ram and one of her Saanens got together while the ram was with the sheep?
This year's kids brought "Lammie" into the world... Born with a completely Saanen (looking) brother Lammie looks like a sheep, hence the name.
She's wearing a sweater in the photo, she's always cold, but she has Katahdin fleece on her body and even looks physically different than her brother and Mother.
Has anyone ever had this cross before? Any advice would be appreciated!

*Update: *
At over 4 months old _Lammie_ is only just now the size of a 2 month old, for the past month she has been being treated for what started as a hair and skin issue; long story short, it seems like her body is killing itself. 
We are sad to learn her fate is officially sealed. 💐
I am not sure that I should post the photo  taken yesterday. She is covered in scabs from the abrasions that ruptured all over her skin a few weeks ago. In the interest of still finding out what her genetics actually are we are going to save some samples from her body after she passes, so that we can test it when we have the money for such a thing.






😑😟


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## Alaskan (Mar 8, 2022)

Amelia said:


> Hello!
> My Mom has been raising goats and sheep for almost 30 years, in the same fields but they tend to do their own things. Nothing like this has happened before, here. Pure bred Kathadin sheep and pure bred Nubians and Saanens tend to have different interests and they never mingled much before this past year.
> Despite her efforts to keep him away it seems that her Katahdin ram and one of her Saanens got together while the ram was with the sheep?
> This year's kids brought "Lammie" into the world... Born with a completely Saanen (looking) brother Lammie looks like a sheep, hence the name.
> ...


I would have thought it would be completely geneticly impossible.


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## Amelia (Mar 9, 2022)

Alaskan said:


> I would have thought it would be completely geneticly impossible.


Right? We didn't think anything could come of the pair even if they did mate, it was not encouraged though.
We're not too sure of her needs and outcome; any advice anyone?


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## secuono (Mar 9, 2022)

There is only one living, DNA lab tested, proven geep alive in the usa. And it is a Babydoll cross to a goat. A breeder I bought one of my sheep from. 

It's exceedingly rare and most are flat out lies, with owner refusing testing, or confused owners that just mistook a different breed ram bred their ewe. 

Unless you send samples to a lab, it's just a sheep and the wrong ram got her knocked up.


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## secuono (Mar 9, 2022)

More info.

Spring Rose is her name, Nigerian Dwarf Doe and a black Babydoll Southdown ram are her parenta. 

Edit, it is the only known confirmed geep on Earth.

They sent hair samples to UC Davis for DNA parentage testing & ruled out all of their bucks.
Then sent blood to Texas A&M for a karyotype.  "The researchers, led by Terje Raudsepp are very excited!  They asked us if they could have a skin biopsy done on “Baby,” as well as blood-tests done on her, her sire, Elder, and Jenna. We took all three to the vet for these tests. “Baby” now has 8,000,000 cells frozen for future research. The researchers are mapping Baby, Jenna, and Elder’s whole Genome Sequence. According to an Italian researcher, Alfredo Pauciullo, who also studies geeps, “Baby” is at this time the only verified geep in the entire world. This researcher studied a German verified geep, who sadly passed away during a pregnancy and with toxemia. Texas A&M told us they had done tests on 19 suspected geeps, over 20 years, but all tests were negative." 









						Chapter 7...Does She Have a Name Yet?  We continued to call this little geep “Baby” for three months. I just knew her name would come to me. One night my... | By Halfpint Farm and Fiber | Facebook
					

2.3K views, 5 likes, 3 loves, 3 comments, 22 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Halfpint Farm and Fiber: Chapter 7...Does She Have a Name Yet?  We continued to call this little geep “Baby” for three...




					fb.watch


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## Amelia (Mar 9, 2022)

secuono said:


> There is only one living, DNA lab tested, proven geep alive in the usa. And it is a Babydoll cross to a goat. A breeder I bought one of my sheep from.
> 
> It's exceedingly rare and most are flat out lies, with owner refusing testing, or confused owners that just mistook a different breed ram bred their ewe.
> 
> Unless you send samples to a lab, it's just a sheep and the wrong ram got her knocked up


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## Amelia (Mar 9, 2022)

In fairness she is a 'goat', she was born to a Saanen goat, but we don't really have $13000 to test her. 
Would then someone know of any scientific research being done on sheep-like creatures being born to pure bread goats? Right now she is set to be sent off for meat in two months with the ram lambs and bucks (assuming she lives)... If she is as rare as she might be maybe someone could give her a life.


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## secuono (Mar 9, 2022)

Amelia said:


> In fairness she is a 'goat', she was born to a Saanen goat, but we don't really have $13000 to test her.
> Would then someone know of any scientific research being done on sheep-like creatures being born to pure bread goats? Right now she is set to be sent off for meat in two months with the ram lambs and bucks (assuming she lives)... If she is as rare as she might be maybe someone could give her a life.


Why do you think it costs 13k to test?

Google shows its 300.

If she knows who the suspected sire is, regular parentage testing is even cheaper. 

But if they're just for meat, I wouldn't bother. Not like you'll make bank off of her.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 9, 2022)

Looks like a goat.


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## Amelia (Mar 10, 2022)

secuono said:


> Why do you think it costs 13k to test?
> 
> Google shows its 300.
> 
> ...


She wouldn't typically be meat but since she's not a purebred it's not like she can be sold as a purebred for anything and she has the temperament of a sheep so she's not much of a pet either. Thank you for the advice on the testing! The only testing I could find started at 11000.


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## mysunwolf (Mar 10, 2022)

Definitely a goat. You can check the shape of the tail for a more definitive look. Goats have a kind of deep pocket under the tail and heavy attachments on the sides and often are able to hold their tails totally perpendicular from their spines for great lengths of time. Sheep cannot. I don't feel like the wattles would have come through on a mix either. As has been discussed, most crosses that do occur (rare in the first place) are aborted in utero due to chromosomal abnormalities.


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## Alaskan (Mar 10, 2022)

Amelia said:


> Hello!
> My Mom has been raising goats and sheep for almost 30 years, in the same fields but they tend to do their own things. Nothing like this has happened before, here. Pure bred Kathadin sheep and pure bred Nubians and Saanens tend to have different interests and they never mingled much before this past year.
> Despite her efforts to keep him away it seems that her Katahdin ram and one of her Saanens got together while the ram was with the sheep?
> This year's kids brought "Lammie" into the world... Born with a completely Saanen (looking) brother Lammie looks like a sheep, hence the name.
> ...


It is interesting.   She does look different.


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## Amelia (Mar 10, 2022)

secuono said:


> Why do you think it costs 13k to test?
> 
> Google shows its 300.
> 
> ...





mysunwolf said:


> Definitely a goat. You can check the shape of the tail for a more definitive look. Goats have a kind of deep pocket under the tail and heavy attachments on the sides and often are able to hold their tails totally perpendicular from their spines for great lengths of time. Sheep cannot. I don't feel like the wattles would have come through on a mix either. As has been discussed, most crosses that do occur (rare in the first place) are aborted in utero due to chromosomal abnormalities.


I am personally wondering if she is technically a Chimera since she was born with a brother who shows no sheep features. 

Does anyone here have any parentage testing services that they have used and would recommend?


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## Ridgetop (Mar 10, 2022)

If she is the one laying down on the right, she has goat horns starting and Saanen ears.  I can't really see much difference between the 3 of them that would make me think she is not a goat.  If the kid is a doe but looks bucky it might be a hermaphrodite - they have both male and female sex organs and are sterile.  

Since you are sending her to market, I wouldn't worry about it.  I would separate your bucks and rams from the combined ewes because even though they can't normally produce offspring, the males can bother the females of the other species when the females come in estrus.  We had an ungelded guardian llama try to breed our dairy does.  Luckily, I caught him before he injured the does and whisked him down for gelding.  Divide the pen into two parts and put the goats in one side and the sheep in the other.


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## secuono (Mar 10, 2022)

Amelia said:


> I am personally wondering if she is technically a Chimera since she was born with a brother who shows no sheep features.
> 
> Does anyone here have any parentage testing services that they have used and would recommend?



NeoGen









						Sheep Parentage (160 SNP) Global | Genomics
					

More than 150 single nucleotide polymorphisms are utilized in parentage verification for pedigree conformation and animal registration programs. Combine genetic testing with a well run breeding porgram to ensure the most accurate pedigrees.



					www.neogen.com


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## mysunwolf (Mar 11, 2022)

I was going to mention this--the differences you see look to me like you might have some hermaphroditism going on. It is more common in polled lines, but happens once in a blue moon to any animal. That might explain a lot of the "oddness" that's showing up in your "goat."



Ridgetop said:


> If she is the one laying down on the right, she has goat horns starting and Saanen ears.  I can't really see much difference between the 3 of them that would make me think she is not a goat.  *If the kid is a doe but looks bucky it might be a hermaphrodite - they have both male and female sex organs and are sterile.*
> 
> Since you are sending her to market, I wouldn't worry about it.  I would separate your bucks and rams from the combined ewes because even though they can't normally produce offspring, the males can bother the females of the other species when the females come in estrus.  We had an ungelded guardian llama try to breed our dairy does.  Luckily, I caught him before he injured the does and whisked him down for gelding.  Divide the pen into two parts and put the goats in one side and the sheep in the other.


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## Nommie Bringeruvda Noms (Mar 16, 2022)

Not sure where you've looked, for the dna/ parentage tests, but: https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/test/parentage-genetic-marker-report-goat


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## Amelia (Mar 16, 2022)

Thank you for all the links! I have not had much luck finding a test that will work for her and I have been talking to some labs but I will take a look at the ones posted here! Thank you!


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## Kay4pets (Mar 16, 2022)

Amelia said:


> Hello!
> My Mom has been raising goats and sheep for almost 30 years, in the same fields but they tend to do their own things. Nothing like this has happened before, here. Pure bred Kathadin sheep and pure bred Nubians and Saanens tend to have different interests and they never mingled much before this past year.
> Despite her efforts to keep him away it seems that her Katahdin ram and one of her Saanens got together while the ram was with the sheep?
> This year's kids brought "Lammie" into the world... Born with a completely Saanen (looking) brother Lammie looks like a sheep, hence the name.
> ...




Good evening, I have 7 Nigerian Dwarfs and 2 meat goats. I have only been doing goats for 2 years and I have never crossed anything like that. Out of this batch of goat I will be having some baby goats soon🐐
Very excited 😊


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## Amelia (Mar 26, 2022)

mysunwolf said:


> Definitely a goat. You can check the shape of the tail for a more definitive look. Goats have a kind of deep pocket under the tail and heavy attachments on the sides and often are able to hold their tails totally perpendicular from their spines for great lengths of time. Sheep cannot. I don't feel like the wattles would have come through on a mix either. As has been discussed, most crosses that do occur (rare in the first place) are aborted in utero due to chromosomal abnormalities.


Actually, her tail, which again my Mom has been raising purebred animals for 30 years so she is very aware of how to identify the correct features; Lammie's goat tail can't curl up or raise like her mother's or brother's or goat sire, but works like the sheep sire... She carries is and uses it only in the direction sheep can. It only lifts halfway and shakes only side to side in a downward position, like a castrated tail. We haven't had luck finding testing that is affordable for her that would answer any questions yet (cause yeah, I am not going to dump a bunch into meat but I am certain that she is more than just a goat and science is neat but expensive) every goat feature she has is corrupted by sheep kinesiology. She's not "definitely a goat" or I would not be here.


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## Amelia (Mar 26, 2022)

mysunwolf said:


> I was going to mention this--the differences you see look to me like you might have some hermaphroditism going on. It is more common in polled lines, but happens once in a blue moon to any animal. That might explain a lot of the "oddness" that's showing up in your "goat."


She is the one on the right in the brown wooly sweater. Her literal muzzle looked like a sheep... That's not dirt... And it's more shovel shaped and less rounded t


OneFineAcre said:


> Looks like a goat.


Have you seen a Katahdin?


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 26, 2022)

I'd love to see updated pics of her!


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## Simpleterrier (Mar 26, 2022)

Yes more pictures are needed


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## Amelia (Apr 12, 2022)

I wish I had more, I haven't been on the farm since she was born so I don't have any decent pics but I can ask for some better ones, for sure. I want ones, personally that show her differences more clearly. Like her sheep nose. 😊


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## Legamin (Apr 12, 2022)

Amelia said:


> In fairness she is a 'goat', she was born to a Saanen goat, but we don't really have $13000 to test her.
> Would then someone know of any scientific research being done on sheep-like creatures being born to pure bread goats? Right now she is set to be sent off for meat in two months with the ram lambs and bucks (assuming she lives)... If she is as rare as she might be maybe someone could give her a life.


though it would not seem so difficult, genetics has become a very rarified field and breeding the ‘old fashioned way’ is mostly the work of us smaller breeders.  There are wildly different outcomes within very limited gene pools as our ‘meat flock’ of sheep demonstrated once again.  Crossing a BFL with LL produced a range of powerful, oversized incredibly athletic and ‘double hocked’ lambs when the sister LL bred to the same BFL ram produced normal sized common and very ‘expected’ lambs.  This cross of a 220lb LL ewe to a 340lb BFL ram commonly produces 340-410lb lambs at 10 months when fed a high protein grass/legume pasture diet.  There is nothing magical except this breed tends to increase in size when crossed in this way.  When you breed the biggest of the lambs together you would expect the huge carcass to carry over…but it’s not to be…they produce lambs in line with the original parent’s size but still with a higher musculature and meat to offal/waste ratio (about 58%).  So the lesson? Breed what you know.  And if doubtful results occur, question assumptions and check hoof, teat, fur/wool micron size and shape, teeth and ears for tell tale indicators of a single heritage.  Get out the microscope and set all bias aside HOPING for boring disappointment!  If the rare and unexpected occurs and you are pretty sure of your findings then approach your local university with a good AG program and ask if they will help you research the genetics.  Offer the  carcass to them for research at the end of her/his normal life (if you can afford to do so) and offer free tissue samples and exclusive rights to all test results for the researching student to be able to write his/her thesis on any unusual findings.  IF you have an unusual result you DO have something to offer them in exchange for information.  
NOTE: Make sure you consult with a lawyer to retain all story rights and promotional rights.  You offer the student the research rights and the rights to their own results but in exchange YOU retain all rights to ownership, control of her location and treatment, medical care and any eventual book or story/interview or publicity rights regarding the uniqueness of the animal.  There is a fine line between getting something for a bargain and unwittingly giving away the farm (sometimes literally with unscrupulous actors).
Good luck! It sounds like you have a wonderful mystery on your hands!  I’m sure there will be a curious grad student looking for a unique thesis!


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## Amelia (Apr 14, 2022)

This is the only other shot I have of her right now but I will try to get others, newer ones.


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