# Hard Lump not in CL type place-should I be concerned



## bbredmom (Aug 14, 2010)

One of our new girls has grown a lump. I specifically asked the woman I bought her from if it was CL, and she said no, she'd had her vet out to look at it, and he was going to inject medicine to make it shrink.

Well, I'd rather be sure so I took a pic for y'all. Also, I read on Tenneseemeatgoats.com about treating CL Lumps with Formalin. Has anyone done this and where can you purchse it?

None of the other goats have any lumps, and this is the only one she has. Its above her jaw line, right by where her molars end. She was not cooperative about the picture though.


----------



## Calliopia (Aug 14, 2010)

One of my Nubians gets a similar lump in that spot sometimes.  Hers is never bigger than a quarter and it pops up every so often and then just goes away. It never ruptures.  The vet things she 'backwashes' her saliva into the salivary gland and then gets a mild infection.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

She bit her cheek....that's all.  No biggie.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

Calliopia said:
			
		

> The vet things she 'backwashes' her saliva into the salivary gland and then gets a mild infection.


What?!?   

I don't mean to poke fun at the vet or anything, but...wow.  That's quite a theory!  

Don't get me wrong -- I totally believe in using vets.  I just also happen to believe that when you hear the beating of hooves, you should probably start off thinking "horses" -- _not zebras!_


----------



## helmstead (Aug 16, 2010)

I think the vet may have been trying to conjure a retained cud?


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> I think the vet may have been trying to conjure a retained cud?


Just did a google search for "retained cud"...got a whole bunch of links devoted to coin collecting.

NO clue.

What the hell is a retained cud?!?  That's a new one on me...


----------



## Calliopia (Aug 16, 2010)

Basically this...    According to the previous owner, she had an obstructed salivary glad when she was about 2. She wasn't swallowing all of her cud or something got stuck, etc and it blocked off the opening that that salivary gland.  It got swollen and infected and they put her on antibiotics and drained it.  Ever since then every so often she gets a bit of bacteria/dirty saliva, whatever in it and it swells a little.   

Similar to retained cud doesn't come with the teeth problems. We had it checked out by our vet the first time it happened on our watch and unlike retained cud there is no visible impaction.   If it doesn't go down on it's own then we give her an antibiotic.



  *** I sometimes wonder if I could make up stranger things happening to our goats and always come to the conclusion that they will do something odder than I can think of ***


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 16, 2010)

But are bit cheeks or swollen salivary glands hard, cause this is hard. It hasn't grown or gone down, but I've only had her since Thursday. And she definitely doesn't like it messed with!


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

Calliopia said:
			
		

> Basically this...    According to the previous owner, she had an obstructed salivary glad when she was about 2. She wasn't swallowing all of her cud or something got stuck, etc and it blocked off the opening that that salivary gland.  It got swollen and infected and they put her on antibiotics and drained it.  Ever since then every so often she gets a bit of bacteria/dirty saliva, whatever in it and it swells a little.
> 
> Similar to retained cud doesn't come with the teeth problems. We had it checked out by our vet the first time it happened on our watch and unlike retained cud there is no visible impaction.   If it doesn't go down on it's own then we give her an antibiotic.
> 
> ...


And you're SURE it's not a simple matter of the goat biting its cheek from time to time?  Seriously...they do that.  I've had mine do it before.  They get a little 'pingpong ball' abscess in their cheek, right next to where the molars come together...right where they chomped down on their cheek.  The abscess usually either hangs around for a few days and slowly gets smaller, or -- more commonly, in my experience -- it just disappears all at once where it either ruptures on its own...or they bite into it again and 'pop' it.



I finally found a reference to retained cud...which is apparently exactly what it sounds like...a goat with cud stuck between its cheek and teeth ( :/ ), and that's not at all what I'm talking about.

Like you said...no visual impaction.  Just a pingpong ball in the cheek, _right beside where the teeth come together._ 

Pretty much exactly what the OP's photo looks like..

Is that what your salivary gland obstruction looked like, by any chance?


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

bbredmom said:
			
		

> But are bit cheeks or swollen salivary glands hard, cause this is hard. It hasn't grown or gone down, but I've only had her since Thursday. And she definitely doesn't like it messed with!


Bitten cheeks are.  Feels like she's holding a little golf ball in there, right?  Or a big marble..


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

Alright, so I found found references to "salivary mucocele" in the Merck Vet Manual.  Apparently, it's a thing.  

Incidentally, it's a thing more commonly seen in dogs than anything else.  I'm assuming it can happen in anything that makes saliva, but....well..

I'm interested to hear if the salivary impaction was hard, or mushy when this happened on your watch..  Was her whole cheek swelling, or was it a little hard round ball popping up on her cheek?


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 16, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> bbredmom said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes! Golf Ball sized exactly!

Oh, this makes me feel better. How do CL lumps feel in comparison?


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 16, 2010)

bbredmom said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dollars to doughnuts says it's a cheek bite.  



> Oh, this makes me feel better. How do CL lumps feel in comparison?


Wouldn't know..  Thankfully, I've never felt one..  

I've seen them many times on other folks' places, though..  Having luckily never had to deal with CL at my place, I've always been inclined to back away slowly and calmly, speaking in soft, soothing tones so as not to disturb or anger the CL lump, lest it rupture on me out of spite.


----------



## Calliopia (Aug 16, 2010)

As I mentioned though the first owner had her vet actually drain it and it was determined to be a salivary gland issue with her.  

Here is some further information. 

Salivary Cysts are painless swellings on the side of the face that are filled with saliva. Do not lance a salivary cyst, because the salivary system provides vital bicarbonates needed in digestion, and to do so can result in life-threatening rumenal acidosis. Instead, use a sterile needle to aspirate (draw out) the odorless, colorless watery or slightly blood-tinged fluid from the cyst. 


Remember I was told all this by her prev owner and then my vet confirmed it so I don't have a huge amount of 'discovery' type information just 'Here's what to do when it happens".     Hers had apparently gone on long enough the first time that when it was aspirated and cultures it was actually infected.  They think that infection damaged the tissue enough that she's just now prone to them.   

I don't know what caused it to become infected the first time because she gave me a brief "this is what happened, it might happen again". All I know is something got in there, caused the infection, the glad was damaged and it happens periodically now.  <shrug> 

It does look a lot like the picture but it's hard to tell the exact placement on the face since the head is tilted a bit.


----------



## helmstead (Aug 16, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I've seen them many times on other folks' places, though..  Having luckily never had to deal with CL at my place, I've always been inclined to back away slowly and calmly, speaking in soft, soothing tones so as not to disturb or anger the CL lump, lest it rupture on me out of spite.


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 17, 2010)

We noticed last night the lump has decreased in size by quite a bit. So yay!

Thanks for help!


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 27, 2010)

Ok, I apparently lied. The lump hasn't  gotten any smaller, and now the hair is falling out in the center.

Crap.

The seller straight up lied. I asked her if it was CL, and she said "Oh no, I had the vet come out and look at it. He said it was a cyst."

Grrrr.

So I'm going to try the formalin. Any idea where I could buy that locally, or do I need to get it off amazon?


----------



## Roll farms (Aug 27, 2010)

You're trying the formalin...why?

It may cause the abscess to 'die' and dry up and not infect anyone _this time_, but the goat could still get internal abscesses that will rupture and spread infection when she coughs.

She could get one on a hind leg that you don't see / notice and it could  rupture and spread the infection.

And, trust me I've popped enough to know...when they go bald, they are RIPE and ready to blow.  You go sticking a needle in that thing to inject formalin, and it's liable to spew.  Literally.

Injecting formalin in an animal that *may* some day end up being used for meat is technically illegal.
It will NOT 'cure' the goat, just help dry up the one lump, and then only if injected before it's ripe.  
I'm against the 'formalin treatment' for CL.....read up on it, rejected it as putting a bandaid on an amputation....too little, too late....and not entirely legal.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/formalin.shtml


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 28, 2010)

Does hair shedding from the abscess always indicate CL?  Not knowing for sure what I was dealing with would drive me nuts.  I'd have it cultured and keep her in quarantine until the results were back.  "Goat Medicine" suggests that a lump in that area is often a tooth root abscess, but I'm a newbie so I'm certainly not making a diagnosis, just throwing it out there.


----------



## ThornyRidge (Aug 28, 2010)

this is a tough one and probably more so on you than the goat.. it is in the area that it could be tooth related or this peculiar salivary gland issue.. most abscesses are hard..until they are ready to pop.. does this one move around or does it seem rooted (not able to freely move abscess around) and I am not aware of any abscess that the hair would not fall out.. I had a goat get stung with I have no idea what it was.. after the abscess popped I was able to pull out the stinger and man alive I would have freaked out if I saw the bug it was attached too cause the stinger was lethal looking! amazingly the abscess puffed up around it and vet said let it go on its own and then I kept it cleaned and treated and it scabbed and healed in no time.  the other issue with this goat is that cl can be found in the jaw line too.. head and neck area are prime areas.. for future goat purchases don't bring anything home with visible lumps, bumps, bald patches etc! else you could be lied to by the previous owner and you fret for sake of exposing your property and goats. Did this owner provide you with vet that supposedly looked at this goat.. I would call this vet and grill them!  good luck!


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 30, 2010)

bbredmom said:
			
		

> Ok, I apparently lied. The lump hasn't  gotten any smaller, and now the hair is falling out in the center.
> 
> Crap.
> 
> ...


Whoa, now...slow down before you go injecting your goat with formaldehyde.

Seems to me that nothing's changed except that there's hair slipping off it now, but that doesn't prove anything about what type of abscess you're looking at.  There's no way to know that "the seller straight-up lied" simply because there's hair falling off of it..

The abscess is still on the cheek, right beside the molars...right?  

There's no lymph node there.  CL doesn't grow knots where there's no lymph node.  That's what CL is -- caseous (cheese-like) lymphaden...(of, or having to do with, the lymphadic system)...itis (inflammation).

Cheese-like inflammation of the lymphadic system.

I'm still gonna say there's about a 99% chance this is NOT a CL abscess.  I still think there's about a 99% chance that the goat bit her cheek, but instead of either being re-absorbed or rupturing inside the mouth, it's gonna rupture to the outside.

Get her in a stanchion.  Take a sharp knife and and make a small, vertical incision on the bottom part of the lump...think of 6:30 on an analog clock...the hands are where you want the incision.  Squeeze out the crud.  Flush the hole thoroughly w/ 7% iodine.  Turn loose of the goat.  Send part of the crud to the vet so they can have it cultured.  Burn the rest.  

Then just sit back and wait for the culture to return a positive for corynebacterium....not pseudotuberculosis, but _pyogenes, yay!_...so you can breathe again.


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 31, 2010)

Ok, so we did what cmjust0 suggested and isolated her. I then really messed with the absess, trying to get it pulled away, see if it was soft, etc. 

This thing is still hard as a rock, and very firmly attached to the goat, not the skin. I didn't get anything out of it except some clear liquid and a mad nanny goat.

So, sorry about that. I guess I shouldn't read too many "OMG, I think my goat has CL" stories when I'm half asleep, and then convince myself that I must have it. 

Sigh.

Sorry for the drama.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

Did you actually lance the thing, or just squeeze around on it?


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 31, 2010)

We lanced it with an 18g needle. I didn't have anything I felt sharp enough to cut it with without causing needless pain.


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

Ah...you aspirated it.  

Were you able to get it to come down considerably, or did you just get enough stuff out of it to see that it wasn't CL before stopping?


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 31, 2010)

She was not a happy girl, and I was so relieved not to pull out cottage cheese, I just let it be. And I read somewhere you shouldn't aspirate salivary infections. 

I'm going to call the vet (yay, she's closer now! 30 min as opposed to 3 hours!) and see what she says to do. If a good dose of penG will fix it, I'll just do that.

ETA: Oh, it was actually this thread. So aspirating is ok, lancing is not. Well, she may just get pissed off again tonite...

Can ya'll tell my brain is in 20 different directions today?


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

So it seems to be the salivary thing afterall...

Wonder what the percentage of "obvious" cheek-bite abscesses (  ) are actually salivary abscesses?!?


----------



## bbredmom (Aug 31, 2010)

Oh you sassy man!


----------



## cmjust0 (Aug 31, 2010)

No, I'm really wondering!  

In the past, anytime I've seen an abscess in the cheek area, I've always considered it to be a cheek-bite pretty much right off the bat...but maybe that's not the case, afterall.

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not so hellbent on being right that I'm no longer interested in finding out that something I've long held to be true may be completely and utterly WRONG.

I just like to learn stuff.


----------



## Ariel301 (Aug 31, 2010)

I had a doe scare me with one of those cheek lumps too. It looked and felt just like CL...but she had a recent CL negative test and had not been exposed to anything that I was aware of (I do have a CL doe but she's in my meat pen, not with my dairy does)...turns out it was probably from biting her cheek She gobbles her grain in a panic on the milk stand once I let go of her udder, because she knows she's about to get pulled away from it, so that is probably when she bit herself. It ruptured on the outside and healed right up.


----------



## bbredmom (Sep 6, 2010)

So we noticed yesterday the lump is completely gone, and since the skin isn't broken on the outside, that supports the infectied salivary gland/bitten cheek!

Thanks for the support, I'm a weeeee bit overprotective of my goaties, and every eyebrow twitch for a while will mean IMMENIENT DEATH!

I'll try and behave myself.


----------



## Kinder Garden Farms (Apr 17, 2015)

Is there a way to treat a dirt floor in a barn to prevent CL? And the surrounding areas?


----------

