# Aggressive doe.



## RPC (May 25, 2011)

How do you all deal with an aggressive doe? I have a doe that is very dominant to the point that if you let her she will injure a doe to the point she can't walk.(that doe is fine now) She also made one of the other does abort her kids. Now this doe is the most friendly goat towards people and it makes me really mad that she is that tough on the other does. I bought her and another doe bred this last winter and while they were quarantined is when the other doe aborted. So because of that I did not put her with the rest of the does so she wouldn't make them abort. She gave us really nice twins this year and I wanted to keep her so we could have more nice kids for the 4-H fair next year but with this behavior I don't think I can unless she changes.Does any one have any suggestions on how to calm her down?


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## RainySunday (May 25, 2011)

I have no suggestions, but am in a similar boat.  My herd queen has chilled out a bit, but can really be mean to the other girls.  We keep our newest doe (who is preg and due in June) separate from the others so she doesn't get beat on until after the kids arrive safely.  As long as she behaves nicely with the babies, we will breed the queen soon, and then keep her daughter (if she has one) and probably sell her if she isn't being nicer by then.


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## terrilhb (May 25, 2011)

I have no idea. I hope someone helps you soon. Good luck


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## 20kidsonhill (May 25, 2011)

Take them to the stockyards.  It is one thing to have a herd queen, it is another thing for the herd queen to be so mean that no other goat can live safely with her.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 25, 2011)

It is an entirely different situation  when introducing one or two new animals into the herd, in that case,  you need to provide them a safe place to get out of the way, extra feeding stations, and possibly some seperation time each day so the new does can get a chance to eat.  This is ofcourse, after the isolation period.


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## Ariel301 (May 25, 2011)

Personally, I'd get rid of her. I had a young doe get aggressive towards the others and break two ribs on an old doe that couldn't run away from her, and I sold that one as quick as I could. There's plenty of goats out there, so to me it isn't worth keeping one that is dangerous.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (May 25, 2011)

I haven't had much experience with this, and I don't know if this will work in this situation but it's worth a try. If she is a full sized goat you'll probably need two men to help. "Tackle" the doe to where she is lying on the ground. Her main caretaker needs to straddle her lightly (don't put all your weight on her, just enough to help keep her down). When she submits (stops struggling, puts her head down, becomes calm) get up. This is letting her know YOUR boss. Now as boss make it very clear to her what behavior you will allow or not allow, in whatever way your comfortable with. I would try methods they use, (biting ears etc).

You may have to "tackle" her a couple times to get the message across. We tried it recently with our  yearling buck (for screaming) and it worked great!

I don't know if it will work for your doe, but it's worth a shot.


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## julieq (May 25, 2011)

No overt aggression allowed in our barn, bucks or does.  We have one buck that butted DH just once while I was cleaning stalls recently.  He's soon to be picked up by a friend's ranch manager and will become buck burritos!  We've kept his son as a bottle baby and hopefully he will be kinder to humans and herd mate bucks.  

Same with our semi wild barn cats, i.e. 'attack cats' die of lead poisoning very quickly, which leads to lots of 'friendly' cats in our barn keeping the mice at bay.  We are very 'hands on' with our dairy goat herd and they absolutely are not allowed to be rough with us or with herd mates.


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## chubbydog811 (May 25, 2011)

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> I haven't had much experience with this, and I don't know if this will work in this situation but it's worth a try. If she is a full sized goat you'll probably need two men to help. "Tackle" the doe to where she is lying on the ground. Her main caretaker needs to straddle her lightly (don't put all your weight on her, just enough to help keep her down). When she submits (stops struggling, puts her head down, becomes calm) get up. This is letting her know YOUR boss. Now as boss make it very clear to her what behavior you will allow or not allow, in whatever way your comfortable with. I would try methods they use, (biting ears etc).
> 
> You may have to "tackle" her a couple times to get the message across. We tried it recently with our  yearling buck (for screaming) and it worked great!
> 
> I don't know if it will work for your doe, but it's worth a shot.


I did that with a yearling buck that started head butting to play (he was a bottle kid, never did it before...I think he was just feeling "frisky" lol!) Worked great. I did a semester of vet tech - one of the classes I took was handling/holding animals...How to drop a goat was the best thing I learned!


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## aggieterpkatie (May 26, 2011)

Keep in mind this behavior can be hereditary. I would not keep any does from a mean doe.


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## ohiofarmgirl (May 26, 2011)

i wouldnt keep a mean doe either.. but i have a VERY bossy gal who is with us for the summer. she's a good milker so i dont want to take her back early.

however, she's huge (bigger than me) and has pushed me down twice. the last time she was getting pushy she "met the dog." i called our #1 Dog over and he put her in her place - he didnt bite or attack her - he just knows how to keep aggressive animals (rooster, gander, pigz) off me. 

she didnt think it was so funny anymore and is now much better behaved. if she gets saucy i just yell "DOG!" like i'm calling him and she snaps right in line. 

not a solution for everyone but i think that Crown has a point about dominance.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 26, 2011)

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> I haven't had much experience with this, and I don't know if this will work in this situation but it's worth a try. If she is a full sized goat you'll probably need two men to help. "Tackle" the doe to where she is lying on the ground. Her main caretaker needs to straddle her lightly (don't put all your weight on her, just enough to help keep her down). When she submits (stops struggling, puts her head down, becomes calm) get up. This is letting her know YOUR boss. Now as boss make it very clear to her what behavior you will allow or not allow, in whatever way your comfortable with. I would try methods they use, (biting ears etc).
> 
> You may have to "tackle" her a couple times to get the message across. We tried it recently with our  yearling buck (for screaming) and it worked great!
> 
> I don't know if it will work for your doe, but it's worth a shot.


Our herd has a definite hierarchy.  While there is one doe clearly in charge of the rest, there is also hierarchy among the rest of the herd such that even the second lowest goat on the totem pole is pushy with the lowest goat.  I frequently see a middle of the pack goat get shoved out of the trough only to turn and take it out on a bottom of the pack doe.  While she may learn that she's not YOUR boss when you tackle her, I'm not convinced it would change her behavior towards the other goats.  Unless THEY tackle her.


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## aggieterpkatie (May 26, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> While she may learn that she's not YOUR boss when you tackle her, I'm not convinced it would change her behavior towards the other goats.  Unless THEY tackle her.


I agree.  Dog psychology and goat psychology are way different, because dogs are predators and goats are prey.  I've never seen goats pin each other, but that would be funny.    And unless you're going to stay out there and tackle the herd queen every single time she gets snotty with another goat, I don't see how it would work.  It's a nice thought though!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 26, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
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You won't even find consensus in the dog training community that this is effective!


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## Melissa'sDreamFarm (May 26, 2011)

Goat tackling? New contact sport?  Count me in.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 26, 2011)

I will first apologize to Crownthorns: I try really hard to keep an open mind with everyones opinions, but  the tackling the goat thing really made me laugh.  I don't see how it would help with a really bossy doe in the herd, maybe a doe mean towards people.  

I did try blowing into a couple kids faces the other day when I was sitting with them, we have 9 to halter and take to weigh-in in one week and not any of them have been handled. Should be fun. 

We have had some luck putting open-ended divider walls up in our barn, and extending them off of the feeders, We use plywood so the aggresive does can't see who is along side of them. They still can come around and run a doe out of the section, but it seems to really help all the goats get a chance to eat.  Often one bossy doe will claim the 4 foot section and 5 other does have to squeeze into the adjacent 4 foot section, but I would just put more feed infront of the 5 does and less infront of the single doe. If I do the same pattern of feeding every day, the does seem to stay in the same places, so I would know where to put more feed and less feed. 

Otherwise, One doe could run all the other does away from several feet of feeder space, the other does would just give up, until she was done eating. We had one doe that would lay in the barn right in front of the entire length of feeder most of the day, she decided that was her 16 feet of feeder space. when we put up the divider walls it really helped a lot.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 26, 2011)

That's a great idea 20kids!


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## 20kidsonhill (May 26, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> That's a great idea 20kids!


My husband's idea, we tried wire panel fencing for a couple years, but they would just pound on it, since they could see each other, it did help some, but the plywood has helped the most.  AFter they ripped up the panel fencing, we switched to plywood.

oh, it is cut to 36" high, since these are the same boards we use for our kidding pens and creep feed zone.


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## RPC (May 26, 2011)

Thank you all for your reply's I think this doe will have to find a new home. It really sucks because I like her but I don't want any more hurt goats. The problem is not at feeding time because now that there is a ton of grass we don't give them grain. She is just a nasty do to be around if you are another goat. So if anyone wants a pet boer doe hit me up I have one as long as you don't have other goats. Lol


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## AlaskanShepherdess (May 26, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
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> ...


It's very effective on our dog, she gets snotty with us girls and when she does we do that, and her attitude straightens right up! I had someone recommend it to me to try on my herd queen because she wont let one of the girls eat at all. Haven't tried it yet, but it has worked VERY well on my bucks. I did it with them for screaming and they are very quiet, all I need to do now if they start getting louder then I like (haven't heard ANY screams from them for several days now!!) I squirt them with a spray bottle and they become quieter then mice. 

I'm actually heading out to do this on mama goat and her daughter since the squirt bottle alone is actually making it worse, they are now screaming out of defiance. So I'm going to try it and see if it works. I hope so because this is insane, I cannot handle a goat screaming 20 hours of the day. If it doesn't work then she goes into the freezer even though she's my best doe.

I don't know if it will work in RPC's instance, but it does work in others for sure.


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## Goatmasta (May 26, 2011)

The whole "Goat tackling" idea is based on horse training probably not used much in today's times, or not talked about, it is referred to as "laying them down".  The process is tying a front leg up and lunging the horse until it is tired enough that you can "lay it down"..  This is a dominance technique.  Regardless, my opinion about goats and any dominance technique used is that it has to be used constantly because they are stubborn animals...
   As far as the "bossy" doe goes, they are goats!  I see people on this forum all the time talk about the "natural" way.  Goats naturally fight.  They are a herd with a hierarchy it is natural.  They will settle the dispute and they will establish a hierarchy.


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## chubbydog811 (May 26, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> ...As far as the "bossy" doe goes, they are goats!  I see people on this forum all the time talk about the "natural" way.  Goats naturally fight.  They are a herd with a hierarchy it is natural.  They will settle the dispute and they will establish a hierarchy.


Dominance is one thing, going for blood is another. Some goats are just out right mean (or cranky, depends how you look at it)...Especially if you have a smaller area, getting rid of the one breaking the other goats is usually the better option over bringing the injured goats to the vet ($$$$), or burying them because they are injured too bad (more $$$$). 
I just sold a doe for doing the same exact thing...She would chase my other girls around and head butt them until one of them actually started jumping the 4 1/2' fence to get away from her. The girl she was picking on wasn't allowed to eat hay - even when it was separated - and got chased whenever the queen goat saw her. Not acceptable in my book, dominance or not. Especially if it has gone on longer than 2 weeks...


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## RPC (May 26, 2011)

I am all about letting them sort out their differences and get their pecking order but when one doe can't even walk when its all over with I am not cool with that. That is the problem I am having. I am tired of separating her from the rest and then once the others are better starting the same thing over again. I understand that in all herds there is fighting but when it comes to one injuring the rest all the time that is when it is time to sell or cull an animal. I had pretty much made up my mind that she had to go but this was my last hope in finding a way to keep her.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 27, 2011)

I agree that not all herd queens are created equal.  I had an exceptionally bossy herd queen that required a little extra work on my part to work around and make sure everyone got their ration.  Now, although they have a definite hierarchy, the boss lady is only as pushy as is required to make her point.  She's far more tolerant of sharing feed and there's no extra consideration required on my part.

I would say, if you're very much inclined to make it work then there are ways to do so.  If it seems like more trouble than it's worth, then sell her.  You have to do what fits best in your particular herd management plan.


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## Roll farms (May 27, 2011)

I've had to sell a few really, really nice goats I'd have loved to keep because of dominance issues.  When the other goats suffer, I do think it's time for the 'meanies' to go.


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## Melissa'sDreamFarm (May 31, 2011)

Just to prove a point.

I believe I bought one of n.smithurmond's "bossy" goats. I now have to feed her separate from everyone else, because my original goats push her around. So even if this particular doe is not working for you, you might be able to place her in a home that corrects your problem. It is definitely worth a try. 

I couldn't ask for a better goat than Annabell (I love the diva). It's my original goats (the shy one, lol) who turned out to be a meanie. She is now in goat confinement so that my baby Sirena can fatten up. Annabell still has to eat on the milk stand, like a diva that she is. I cannot expect her to eat with all the other goats, it would be beneath her. 

ETA:
I was being silly, truthfully Annabell eats much better on the stand, she tries to push her way to the feeder, but everyone else is bigger than her and she just gives up. So I make time to feed her on the milk stand and Sirena comes in with me and eats out of a dog bowl on the floor of the milk room. That way we are all happy goaties and everyone is getting their share. Also Annabell loves to be scratched when she's done eating. I thought I would never earn her trust, but she now loves to be scratched and petted on. She tolerates Sirena eating close to her as long as she stays by her bowl.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 31, 2011)

Yes, AB was a bossy pants when she was here.  I think part of it is that she was the ONLY doe who got along with our ultra-bossy herd queen, so it was easy for her to fill the second in command position without much effort on her part!   I think the herd dynamics and the personalities of the other goats they live with really affect individual personalities.  Another herd may have a doe strong enough to keep the aggressive one in check, even if the current herd doesn't.


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## RainySunday (May 31, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Yes, AB was a bossy pants when she was here.  I think part of it is that she was the ONLY doe who got along with our ultra-bossy herd queen, so it was easy for her to fill the second in command position without much effort on her part!   I think the herd dynamics and the personalities of the other goats they live with really affect individual personalities.  Another herd may have a doe strong enough to keep the aggressive one in check, even if the current herd doesn't.


I think herd dynamics are so interesting.  Our newbie (Peekaboo) kidded, so she is having some pen time with the other goats now (just for a little while, so the babies could have run of the kid/kidding pen; we are bottling them).  I thought the herd queen was going to be the problem (and when peek was pregnant, Ali (the queen) was mean to her whenever she got the chance).  But, #2 in command is the one clashing with her.  Unfortunately, #2 has a small small scur (like a fingernail sticking out, truly very small) and it is scraping Peekaboo's head.  I think Peek is trying to shake up the order and Amber is trying to hold on to her position.  Bah! Goats!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 31, 2011)

nurturingnaturally said:
			
		

> Bah! Goats!


Yup.


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## Jake (May 31, 2011)

That temperament will be passed on to her kids, you dont need them or her in your herd, sell her for a brush goat. Or personal one goat pet.


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## Mea (May 31, 2011)

I really like the divider idea.  We had to do that with our sheep when the lead ewe would push everyone off the feed tray.  Worked great !

  Another idea is to put a bell on the agressive doe's collar.  This gives an audible warning to other goats that "She" is coming.....


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