# U S A: SHEEP INDUSTRY. Revive it or just let it slowly die?



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jul 21, 2018)

G'day , I thought I would "test" the subject before posting it to other forums.I am interested in your response to the ideas expressed.

Is there a desire or need to revive the U.S. Sheep Industry? Were you to pose this question to an Aussie sheep-meat exporter I suspect the answer would be “no”. At this point of time they are reaping $m’s of $’s in profits in spite of the “historical y high prices being paid in the sale-yards”, plus the fact most of their “marketing costs” are paid for by the Aussie producers via the levies collected by the MLA.

Any revival will depend on the attitude of the Federal govt at any given time, to this statement you could well ask “why” and the reason is that it’s a fact that the Feds are the largest landholders in the U.S.A. Sheep farming in the US is about numbers in both land size and numbers produced. There is a saying I heard once and have never forgotten, “Wire grows grass” and in the U.S.’s case it keeps out the multitude of predators that impact on the profitable outcome of the farm .In recent times in mainly Northern Australia farmers are getting together to build “cluster fencing” which keeps out not only the Wild Dogs but the ravenous hordes of Kangaroos which strip the country “bare” of grass when times are dry. This type of fencing is expensive, is about 6 ft high with an apron at ground level to deter digging under the fence with special attention to gateways.(Google” cluster fencing” for details)

It’s going to take a “brave fed gov” to support this venture; each block would be 1000 ACS it would be supported by a 99year lease (which would be tradable on the open market after 33 years), the lease payment would be waived for the first 10 years so that development of the necessary infrastructure could be undertaken. This young farmer would need considerable finance behind him/her as there would be a need to complete housing for the farmer family, barns ,handling and shearing  yards and sheds and the completion of “predator proof  fencing” on at least the whole of the blocks boundary.

Assuming that it’s “half decent” grazing country the carrying capacity would be set at 1 breeder to the ac as this would allow some cropping on the best portions for storable fodder production. Let’s also assume that after ewe replacement s you were selling at 100% turnoff and your lambs were returning say $150.00 per head that’s a gross income of $150,000.00 per annum. Sure you can earn more than that elsewhere, but I’m sure there are young folks who would “jump” at the chance.

To be eligible for one of these farms the young farmer (early 30’s) would have to have extensive experience in livestock production on say a family farm (but not necessarily a sheep farm)and be college educated especially in the finance dept and livestock.

I am interested in your responses to this "radical " idea of reviving the US sheep industry...T.O.R.


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## Latestarter (Jul 21, 2018)

The problem with the whole idea is that young people in the US are moving away from "menial" jobs, and farming in particular, as it just doesn't provide an adequate income or return on investment. It's also a LOT of hard, sweaty, physical work. Most young people would prefer to have their faces stuck to an electronic device, while situated in a comfy chair, blocking out reality with ear buds blasting ridiculous noise into their brains. It's so much easier to rely on the hard work done in other countries who import their products to us here for our pleasure and consumption. Not quite sure how that's going to work when the dollar crashes and nobody will accept it in payment.


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## greybeard (Jul 21, 2018)

And generally speaking, much (if not most) of America doesn't want any more grazing done than is happening now, especially on public (govt owned) lands no matter what the species....bison and wildlife being an exception.


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## goats4us (Jul 21, 2018)

It would be an uphill battle all the way. The environmentalists would be screaming about fencing the land, giving the land to farmers, grazing, and just about anything else you can imagine. I can't see the government doing any of it. Currently the largest sheep farmers already graze on huge plots (some government) without fencing, using LGD against predators. There are some young people who I know would be interested, but capital to get started is another uphill battle.


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## Baymule (Jul 21, 2018)

What you call  cluster fencing is called high wire fencing here in Texas. There is a high wire fenced ranch of over 1,000 acres behind our little 8 acres. The couple made mega bucks in insurance multi level marketing and have plenty money. They have exotic deer and horses. There is not a cross fence on the place, all wide open. Their fence is skirted with 2 feet of wire laid on the ground and hog ringed to the high wire fence to keep coyotes and dogs from digging in. The gateways have a poured concrete barrier at ground level that goes several feet deep. Their fence is set back 3 feet from their property line, which makes it illegal to tie onto their fence, as that would be trespassing. There is quite a bit of high wire fencing in Texas. 

Large sheep ranching in the USA? Environmentalists are so anti-everything, that I don't see the scenario you described happening. I believe the Australian Sheep Industry is safe from the USA sheep raising endeavor. 

Is the cluster fencing, 99 year lease, young farmer that you described an ongoing thing in Australia? Is the government setting this up to help agriculture? Interesting.....


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Jul 22, 2018)

G'day and thank you for your responses.First to BM.To my mind your neighbors have created something similar to an English estate,but what a sheep farm it would make.My description was a hypothetical situation.Down here we never hear of high wire fencing being used up there,most descriptions of sheep farms are shepherds moving flocks over rented land with the help of guard and herding dogs but the increasing costs of this type of operation seem to be increasing.

It seems that over 40% of land in the Western division is under 99 year leases although in recent times I think a lot has been converted to freehold.Since the 1980's the first nations have claimed all of the crown lands as Native title except for Defense land and National parks.In the beginning the reigning King/Queen owned all of the land in Australia and in the early years the governors simply gave away land grants to those they favored.(for more on WLL see link https://www.industry.nsw.gov.au/lands/use/leases/western  )As I understand it there are vast stations in the Top End and North-West in size up to a million acs ,which seemed to be owned by wealthy English,Americans and Europeans.

Even in Aussie with the vast stretches of land the capital cost on entry for new farmers is almost beyond them unless they are financed by the "Bank of Mum and Dad."The really good land rarely comes onto the market and if it does there are company's both local and overseas "swoop" on it in an instant,recently a local holding was sold for over $6 million a chap walked in off the street and offered the owner that amount (the owner had only had it for a few years ,he paid $2 million for it).

I would like to hear more of your views either supporting what has been said or any other view you may have....T.O.R.


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## greybeard (Jul 22, 2018)

1. The thing is tho, the areas that have the public lands in the US are already where the sheep are. (Texas excepted..there is very little public land in Texas except that which is designated protected National forests, National or State Parks)



 



> The United States has 5.21 million head of sheep and lambs.
> 
> Roughly 25% of the sheep and lambs in the United States are in Texas and California.
> 
> ...



2. Management of public federal lands in this country has always been a political football, with different administrations, different congressional majorities, and different agency heads often having totally different  (and usually opposite) ideas on how those lands should be managed.

3. Startup costs for 1000 ac would be significant. In my state, it costs anywhere from $10,000-$18,000 per mile to build an 8' high fence. Out in West and South Texas, where most of Texas sheep are, it is very rough terrain. Pretty much the same with the 3rd most sheep populated region of the state,the Edwards Plateau region.

4. Lamb and mutton just aren't very popular in this country. Most of the market is out West where the sheep are raised and in the Northeast where there is a larger ethnic population.  Demand is "steady to slightly improving" but US lamb/mutton demand won't match beef, chicken, and pork demand anytime soon, if ever. The sheep industry has tried to change the attitude of the US consumer, but has been totally unsuccessful. Less than 1% of the US human population eats sheep products.
Scroll down to pg2 of Introduction:
http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/nass/general/aib/aib787.pdf

and:


 

The spread between wholesale and retail prices of lamb in the US is too much for very many farmers to swallow. (what the farmer gets vs what the retailer gets)
Compared to poultry, beef and pork, the spread for lamb is nearly double. 

A locked in 99 year lease? Not going to happen. The US public in general (non farming public which makes up over 90% of the population) nowadays sees 'public' land as exactly that, belonging to the public and not leased out to and fenced in to just a relatively few ranchers. Granted, 90% of the US 'public' will never actually set foot on BLM or Forest Service land, but that's beside the point. Joe Public wants less grazing and fewer leases...not more.


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## Baymule (Jul 22, 2018)

Texas has very little Federal owned land. Texas was it's own country for 10 years before joining the United States. Private property is sacrosanct in Texas. Almost no open land.  The western states were territories, owned by the Federal Government, thus the vast holdings by the Government. If my history serves me right, in the 1800's ranchers homesteaded a section of land (640 acres) that had water on it and leased the federal land around it. Many ranches in the west count on leased lands to this day. And the controversy continues.


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## greybeard (Jul 22, 2018)

Baymule said:


> Texas has very little Federal owned land.


Depends how you look at it.
There are 168,217,600 acres in Texas

The Federal govt owns 2,977,950 acres in Texas.
That's close to 2% of the whole state.

The difference is how the Federally controlled lands are used here and farther out West. The biggest users here (in no particular order) are Military bases, (Ft Hood is the largest military base in the free world) National Parks, flood control, Interstate highway row, and National Forests.
The number of acres of Federal owned/administered  lands in Texas that would work for the issue being discussed is very close to zero as all the Texas Fed land is already set aside for something else..

Out West, those Federal lands aren't being used for much of anything at all, so much of it could be used for grazing leases.............or given to the State to be used as it's own people want. (but don't get me started on that.. )


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Jul 22, 2018)

G'day and thank you for your "valuable "insights into the production side of the industry in the U.S.In spite of the small size of the national flock if you subtract all of the "white folks' from the population I suspect that there is a huge potential for selling sheep-meats (and goat-meat)to the communities who come from a background where their home country was in the main unsuitable for beef production.To my mind its all about the identification of markets and then breeding to supply that market as an example,in a former life I worked for Kellogg Australia,25 years ago they identified a market in India with the target group of those who were worth or earned $1m  and proceeded to build a factory with the aim to supply this group.They now have 3 factory's and have the largest share of the breakfast cereal business in the country.

The growing of a industry is "not" to displace others ,but to serve the potential market that already exists.It's my feeling that more and more consumers these days want to know where and how their food is produced and will pay a "premium" for local.

I am really enjoying this discussion and I hope others will join in......T.O.R.


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## greybeard (Jul 23, 2018)

This, seems to be a case of a solution looking for a problem..
Is there a shortage of US lamb in the US?  Seems not to be.
10% of the lamb and mutton produced in the US is being exported.
The sheep industry has tried before to increase the public's affinity for sheep and mutton and it just isn't there in any great numbers. That may change in the future, as demand has slowly increased some over the last 10 years, but increasing supply to a market where there is not much comparable demand can only depress prices for those already producing sheep products.
According to American Farm Bureau, , Americans eat sheep meat products at the rate of 1lb per person......per year. (someone else is eating my share because I can't stand the taste or texture of it)

As far as 'non-white' populations being the savior of the lamb/mutton industry, I don't think so as a very sizable Hispanic population has been here for decades and decades and currently stands at about 58 million, (doesn't count undocumented or unreported 'immigrants') which as I'm sure you know, means we already have an ethnic population greater than twice the total population of Australia and New Zealand combined.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Jul 23, 2018)

G'day GB,I just looked up the exports to the USA of sheep-meats from Australia (source MLA)for the year ending June 2018.It was 71,524 tonnes CW.
There is a market out there somewhere?...T.O.R.


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## Baymule (Jul 23, 2018)

So far, my marketing has been to white people. I sell whole or half lambs, slaughtered and vacuum sealed for $10 a pound. Prices for cuts at the store range from $12 for lamb burger to $38 a pound for lamb chops.


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## greybeard (Jul 23, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day GB,I just looked up the exports to the USA of sheep-meats from Australia (source MLA)for the year ending June 2018.It was 71,524 tonnes CW.
> There is a market out there somewhere?...T.O.R.


125,000 tons imported are the official USDA and Commerce Dept numbers, with US lamb/mutton production being 72,500 tons. 

I suspect it is much like our import/export of beef.  We raise plenty of domestic beef to cover all the domestic demand, but we also import a lot as well from Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Brazil, and Mexico.  This allows us to export part of our home grown boxed beef...& not a coincidence, that much of it is exported to some of the same countries we import from. We eat a LOT of ground beef here, but most of our cattle are too lean to produce burger, so we import the less lean beef for our burger/ground beef, and sell the lean beef here. 


> Sometimes overlooked in the discussion of U.S. beef and international trade is the beef imported to the U.S. from other countries, which represents another opportunity to increase the value of domestic beef.
> 
> One key opportunity, in over-simple terms, revolves around the fact that the U.S. produces too little lean trim to support the nation’s expansive ground beef market without having to grind higher value domestic beef. Importing lower-cost lean trim means more of the domestic supply can go toward higher-value markets.



For lamb, the 'higher value markets' simply don't exist here in any great quantity and won't for the foreseeable future..not great enough to expand US production by nearly a multiple of 2 anyway. 1000 acres is 1 1/2 sq miles or as we call it 1 1/2 sections. Too expensive to high fence and provide shelter in the winter that much of that Western land sees. 

(You can make more $$ with hunting leases in South and West Texas than with cattle or sheep)


Like a lot of things in global trade, it's possible, that it is simply cheaper for the packing houses to import lamb/mutton than it is for the US producer to raise it.


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## greybeard (Jul 23, 2018)

Baymule said:


> Prices for cuts at the store range from $12 for lamb burger to $38 a pound for lamb chops.


How big is the lamb section in the meat case and how much do they sell?
I've asked at both Brookshires and H-E-B. Lamb is the least popular meat they sell. There are over 350 H-E-B stores in Texas and some have a Halal section in the meat case thru a partnership with this company. I've been in one of the newer ones in The Woodlands that does. 
There is a clue in their name and another by way of the mascot they chose. 
There's a reason for that.
Only about 60 H-E-B stores have a Halal section and most of it's contents are chicken, beef, and goat with lamb trailing the pack. 
There's a reason for that too.


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## mystang89 (Jul 24, 2018)

Here in Southern Indiana lamb goes for about $13 per pound.


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## Anthony Sr. (Jul 28, 2018)

I'm getting hungry ,Yes I'm a Meat eater. I wonder if it would be worth it to raise a couple on my little 2 acres?


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Jul 28, 2018)

Anthony Sr. said:


> I'm getting hungry ,Yes I'm a Meat eater. I wonder if it would be worth it to raise a couple on my little 2 acres?


G'day, you're damm right it would,nothing "beats " home grown lamb...T.O.R.


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## Baymule (Jul 28, 2018)

greybeard said:


> How big is the lamb section in the meat case and how much do they sell?
> I've asked at both Brookshires and H-E-B. Lamb is the least popular meat they sell. There are over 350 H-E-B stores in Texas and some have a Halal section in the meat case thru a partnership with this company. I've been in one of the newer ones in The Woodlands that does.
> There is a clue in their name and another by way of the mascot they chose.
> There's a reason for that.
> ...



What's the clue in their name and mascot? I wonder why lamb is the least popular? It sure is good. The Brookshire's we shop at is in Lindale, the lamb section is not very big. I haven't gone into Brookshires in Tyler to check out their lamb selection.


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## Baymule (Jul 28, 2018)

Supper last night was lamb pot pie. We ate the rest tonight.


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## greybeard (Jul 28, 2018)

Baymule said:


> What's the clue in their name and mascot?


TexMed BEEF Co.






Their mascot:


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## Anthony Sr. (Jul 28, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> The problem with the whole idea is that young people in the US are moving away from "menial" jobs, and farming in particular, as it just doesn't provide an adequate income or return on investment. It's also a LOT of hard, sweaty, physical work. Most young people would prefer to have their faces stuck to an electronic device, while situated in a comfy chair, blocking out reality with ear buds blasting ridiculous noise into their brains. It's so much easier to rely on the hard work done in other countries who import their products to us here for our pleasure and consumption. Not quite sure how that's going to work when the dollar crashes and nobody will accept it in payment.


     So True, I'm not that old (55 as 7/24/18), but it does seem like the younger(New Generation?) is LAZY ? They don't wanna sweat or risk getting Dirty it seems. I myself enjoyed working hard, because that made me felt like "I EARNED MY PAY" with My Brain and the sweat of my brow, not just my fingers.


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## goatgurl (Jul 28, 2018)

@Anthony Sr. let me second T.O.R.'s answer to your previous question about the wisdom of raising your own lamb.  way more than worth it.  I went to the grocery store one Easter to look for a leg of lamb to serve and they wanted $78. for one small leg and I thought to my self, I can but the whole sheep for that and I did.  bought a yearling katahdin ewe with a ram lamb for $100.  raised him up and butchered him and bought another couple of ewe and I've been raising sheep ever since.  go for it.  if you like lamb then you've got nothing to loose.


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## Anthony Sr. (Jul 28, 2018)

goatgurl said:


> @Anthony Sr. let me second T.O.R.'s answer to your previous question about the wisdom of raising your own lamb.  way more than worth it.  I went to the grocery store one Easter to look for a leg of lamb to serve and they wanted $78. for one small leg and I thought to my self, I can but the whole sheep for that and I did.  bought a yearling katahdin ewe with a ram lamb for $100.  raised him up and butchered him and bought another couple of ewe and I've been raising sheep ever since.  go for it.  if you like lamb then you've got nothing to loose.



     I'll be heading to the Animal Auctions soon as I can, to see if I can get a Lamb Sheep cheap, I have ordered lamb meat online before, and it was a costly meat, But I did enjoy it. I do have 2 goats, had 3, but one died(accident) during last freeze in this part of East TX. (So it's in freezer now, no use wasting Good meat)...


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## Baymule (Jul 29, 2018)

Anthony Sr. said:


> I'll be heading to the Animal Auctions soon as I can, to see if I can get a Lamb Sheep cheap, I have ordered lamb meat online before, and it was a costly meat, But I did enjoy it. I do have 2 goats, had 3, but one died(accident) during last freeze in this part of East TX. (So it's in freezer now, no use wasting Good meat)...


You might be better off to buy from individuals. Auctions are where everybody sends their culls. What part of east Texas are you in? We used to live in Livingston, moved 3 years ago to the Tyler area.


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## Bruce (Jul 29, 2018)

Baymule said:


> So far, my marketing has been to white people. I sell whole or half lambs, slaughtered and vacuum sealed for $10 a pound. Prices for cuts at the store range from $12 for lamb burger to $38 a pound for lamb chops.


I love lamb, I'd be happy to eat @greybeard's portion. But the prices Bay listed is why I don't buy it (that and no one else in the house appreciates it). I don't think I've seen $38/pound but Aus shoulder chops go for (IIRC) around $15/pound. Bay, send me some $10 lamb  

I would like to raise a lamb for me to eat but as some of you already know, I have a "people problem" that wouldn't allow killing it.



Baymule said:


> Supper last night was lamb pot pie. We ate the rest tonight.


Bay is torturing me.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 29, 2018)

Bruce said:


> I would like to raise a lamb for me to eat but as some of you already know, I have a "people problem" that wouldn't allow killing it.


So, get a lamb.  When it reaches the appropriate size it "runs away" and a week or so later the grocery has a great sale on lamb and you buy in bulk!    Problem solved!


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## Latestarter (Jul 29, 2018)

See if there are any neighbor farms or sheep farms nearby where you can buy a lamb and let it grow there for butcher down the road. When it's ready you get it butchered, vac packed and pre-frozen, and bring it home to your freezer. May be a little more expensive than raising it yourself, but still much cheaper than store bought and you'll know where it came from, how it was raised, etc. I've asked @Mike CHS to purchase one of his this fall. I expect some time in September, time depending on when he gets a butcher dater set up. Side benefit is I get to meet Mike and his wife.


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## Bruce (Jul 29, 2018)

Sadly Mike is a bit far for me to travel but you can have a nice mini vacation!
Yep, I'll have to look around to see if anyone is raising meat sheep locally. Who knows, maybe at some point the "people problem" won't be living here and I can raise a few dinners of various types. Of course DW mostly likes beef which is just a wee bit harder to work with than smaller animals.

FWIW, Vermont was a big sheep "capital" in the early to mid 1800's.


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## Baymule (Jul 29, 2018)

Out of the lamb that we recently took to slaughter, we sold 10 pounds to a couple that also bought half a hog from us and we sold another 10 pounds to our hay guy. After we give our DD and family some, we won't have much left. Watching ewe bellies grow...…..LOL


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## Bruce (Jul 29, 2018)

Gotta look out for yourself first Bay!


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## Baymule (Jul 29, 2018)

Bruce said:


> Gotta look out for yourself first Bay!


Yeah, and we raised 2 hogs this time and sold every bit of it. But we still have pork from last year and need to eat it up. And we have a couple of leg of lamb from last year, plus a lot of beef. So we are pretty well set for meat for the rest of the year. Oh, and I raised all those Cornish Cross (butchered 44, sold 10) and still have chicken too.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 29, 2018)

You are SET!


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## Mike CHS (Jul 30, 2018)

Anthony Sr. said:


> I'll be heading to the Animal Auctions soon as I can, to see if I can get a Lamb Sheep cheap, I have ordered lamb meat online before, and it was a costly meat, But I did enjoy it. I do have 2 goats, had 3, but one died(accident) during last freeze in this part of East TX. (So it's in freezer now, no use wasting Good meat)...



Anthony, I see lambs on Facebook all of the time for pretty good prices.  A lot of people, (us included) will sell a sheep to someone and then take it in for processing.  The buyer then works their cut list and pays for processing. 

@Latestarter - anytime in September is good.  We are prepping for breeding this week and making an appointment at the processor.  I don't want to wait too long and take a chance of heading into deer season (at the processors).  I'll send you a PM Joe.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Jul 31, 2018)

G'day, found an interesting post on my  LinkedIn feed.http://texasfarmbureau.org/american-lamb-board-releases-seasonality-white-paper/
It seems there is some hope yet for US lamb producers?  T.O.R.


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## High Desert Cowboy (Aug 6, 2018)

I’ll add my two cents.  Utah is about 66% federal land, meaning we should have plenty for grazing leases and logging and of course enjoying a weekend camping.  Unfortunately federal mismanagement doesn’t make those practices very easy.  Last year we had a terrible fire just south of my home where there was way too much to burn as they wouldn’t allow any logging or new grazing permits after years of being warned that was going to happen.  To the west, federally protected wild horses strip the land bare and continue to damage our federal (and private) lands largely unchecked.  And today the state is wanting to transplant big horn sheep for hunting to the mountains north of my home with the demand that no sheep leases be given on that range to prevent disease between wild and domestic animals.  
Government mismanagement aside, you also have the disagreements between cattle men and sheep herders.  The range wars caused a very ugly schism between the groups that stands today.  While I have ancestors who brought sheep to the states from New South Wales 150 years ago, I grew up with my cow ranching buddies who referred to sheep as range maggots and owning sheep was along the lines of kissing your sister.  Many cattle ranchers I’ve known their family owned sheep 100 years ago but over time converted to cattle and while they’ll talk about their family history in cattle those sheep are swept under the rug.  Fortunately the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the two have started to help one another in regards to government mismanagement.  Several of the cattlemen who graze the mountains north of me own private ground up there as well, and have leased that land to the Utah Wool Growers Association to prevent the introduction of big horn sheep to the area.
That’s not to say there aren’t large scale sheep ranchers, I have a good friend who’s family runs thousands of sheep and a branch of the family I just became reacquainted with just south of me who runs several thousand head.  South of us is prime sheep country, and when first settled that’s all that anyone owned because of the larkspur.  About 150 yards from my back door to the south is .25 million acres of federal land with a few leases for cattle but a little to the south you start seeing sheep grazing.  
While we do have all that federal land private land is expensive, in my area one acre with water can go for $14,000 and you can’t keep your animals on the lease year round, they’ve gotta come home sometime and trying to purchase enough
Property alone will cost more than you can afford.  Most anyone who runs sheep still can only afford it because they inherited it, and the inheritance tax makes that miserable as well.  As has been stated many people don’t want to work that hard and would rather take that land and sell it and walk away, which causes all sorts of grief for the family as those that want to stay in the business have to come up
With money they don’t have to buy out siblings to keep it all together.  It’s not unusual for a ranching families to have a sibling or two they don’t speak about because of these feuds.
As to taste.  In 1908, the average American spent half his salary on food.  Today, they spend about 9.8% of their salary on food, meaning they can afford to be picky.  And lamb has been lumped with mutton to be a poor tasting meat.  Take my wife for instance.  I love lamb and will readily eat it (course I also think Rocky Mountain oysters taste good so maybe my tastes are off) and she won’t even try lamb because of stories her grandpa, a marine during WWII, shared about his experience eating mutton in the service.  In fact there was a large decrease in sheep consumption following the Second World War because of similar experiences.  That stigmatism translated over to lamb.  Now it costs more to produce because of low demand, driving up prices so that the average person won’t try it because they don’t need to spend that kind of money.  I’ve personally never bought it from the store, I’ve had the benefit of knowing that handful who will hook me up.  My beef buddies do the same on occasion.  
Could we see more sheep being produced in America one day?  I believe it will some serious changes to make it possible.  With better federal management, manageable private land prices, and an ability to convince the public that lamb should be served at your next barbecue it could happen.  But as of today there are too many factors in play against a young man walking into an ag lender and saying he wants to start a sheep ranch


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## Bruce (Aug 6, 2018)

High Desert Cowboy said:


> she won’t even try lamb because of stories her grandpa, a marine during WWII, shared about his experience eating mutton in the service.


Poor reason! My stepfather was in the 101st airborne in WWII. NOT a lamb fan for the same reason as your DW's grandfather. Even though it wasn't the mutton he remembered, not fondly, from his service, the smell is similar enough to put him off. BUT your lamb is not her grandfather's mutton. Too bad she is not willing to recognize that.


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## greybeard (Aug 6, 2018)

So.the reason Americans don't buy and eat much sheep meat is now being cast upon WW2 veterans? Ya'll gonna have to come up with something better and more realistic than that.

A total of 12,209,238 Americans were in military service by September 2, 1942, representing *9 percent* of the 131,028,000 U.S. population. Before the war's end the number that had served increased to around 16 million or 11% of the 140 million US population.
How many of those in uniform actually went overseas to serve in an area where they could partake of this delicacy? According to The National WW2 Museum,73% or 11.6 million.
Subtract the 400,000 that were killed in WW2 and the % drops (dead people don't come back to tell how nasty the sheep smelled or tasted) .
So, 11.2 million troops came back and forever changed how over 130 million people ate?

Fast forward 73 years to today and there are only 620,000 of that generation still alive, and the youngest (assuming he was 18 and entered service in 1945) is at or nearly 90 years old. (avg age of today's ww2 vet is 92)

So......a bunch of 92 year old men (less than 1% of the current population) are now keeping the US from eating lots more sheep.....

You need to go rustle up a different reason, because that dog just don't hunt.
(suggestion:
start with 'people don't like it's odor and taste', then you'll be on the right track)

Yes I know. One can become accustomed to eating anything and maybe even one day come to like it. I have known people that eat all kinds of things and say it's good, even possum, raccoon and rat if they try hard enough. Balut is considered a delicacy some places..


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## Bruce (Aug 6, 2018)

I don't think anyone is blaming WWII mutton for a serious downturn in lamb consumption. But obviously there are some that don't eat it for that reason. And any that don't because of personal experience with military mutton in WWII are a small percentage of the current population. I do suspect that @High Desert Cowboy's wife is an anomaly with that reasoning though.


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## greybeard (Aug 6, 2018)

Or she, like myself and most of my extended family (one of my b-i-l excepted) .........just don't like it, and I've tried it every way it can be cooked. 
(B-I-L eats it because his wife told him if he insisted on raising them, he was gonna have to eat it)


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## greybeard (Aug 6, 2018)

Bruce said:


> I don't think anyone is blaming WWII mutton for a serious downturn in lamb consumption.


You don't?



High Desert Cowboy said:


> she won’t even try lamb because of stories her grandpa, a marine during WWII, shared about his experience eating mutton in the service. In fact there was a large decrease in sheep consumption following the Second World War because of similar experiences.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 6, 2018)

G'day and what "great" responses,"It seems there is still lots of "life" left in the topic ".I hope the latest lot encourage other to add to it as I think its through discussions such as these the industry may be expanded and maybe "saved" in the long term...T.O.R.


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## Latestarter (Aug 6, 2018)

greybeard said:


> (B-I-L eats it because his wife told him if he insisted on raising them, he was gonna have to eat it)


 GB  Well, we know who wears the pants in that family huh?  B-I-L Hmmm that woman isn't a direct relation to you is she?


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## Latestarter (Aug 6, 2018)

Hey there Old Ram... How are you doing? How is your wife? I hope you're finding some relief time. Always good to see you've posted up.


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## greybeard (Aug 6, 2018)

The Old Ram-Australia said:


> G'day and what "great" responses,"It seems there is still lots of "life" left in the topic ".I hope the latest lot encourage other to add to it as I think its through discussions such as these the industry may be expanded and maybe "saved" in the long term...T.O.R.


The only way I see it getting expanded much in this country is an en masse immigration of ethnic population the like of which none alive today has never seen in their or our lifetimes or the govt comes in and mandates a certain % of the meat grown/raised in this nation has to be lamb and mutton....or heavily subsidies it and buys the surplus. Even then, you face a huge uphill battle trying to make them eat it.

The bottom line is, you can't make people buy something they don't want to buy or even like something they don't like.
You'd have better luck trying to get me to eat brussel sprouts or embrace all this all natural/100% organic/chemical free/gluten free/grain free/non-gmo mumbo jumbo we see is currently all the new age/modern day hippy rage.


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## Bruce (Aug 6, 2018)

No lamb OR brussel sprouts? I love both 

But I know some people just don't like lamb, nothing wrong with them. They just got inferior taste buds  Of course people could say the same about me, I don't like hot peppers or spicy food.



greybeard said:


> Or she, like myself and most of my extended family (one of my b-i-l excepted) .........just don't like it, and I've tried it every way it can be cooked.
> (B-I-L eats it because his wife told him if he insisted on raising them, he was gonna have to eat it)


Seems fair ... I guess. But on the other hand if he is raising them to sell to make money, isn't eating your product also reducing your income?


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## Baymule (Aug 6, 2018)

I like lamb. Lamburger makes some awesome tacos!


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## Mike CHS (Aug 7, 2018)

Sheep meat is our primary meat plus we have people over who ask for it if given the choice.  We have four neighbors that have cattle that have bought sheep from us to raise for themselves.


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## greybeard (Aug 7, 2018)

Bruce said:


> Seems fair ... I guess. But on the other hand if he is raising them to sell to make money, isn't eating your product also reducing your income?



He's not...he's forever getting into some new scheme or another. First it was bees...then beagle dogs for chasing birds, then rabbits, then turkeys, then dozens and dozens of chickens (all those went bye bye) then fish, in a big pond that evidently has a porous bottom & now has to have an elec powered water well to keep it full, then pigs..(gone too) , and now it's hair sheep. My sister got tired of having to care for everything. They don't need any more $$ that I can tell, but he has to sell some of them to keep their numbers manageable.


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## High Desert Cowboy (Aug 7, 2018)

I can’t lay claim to the WWII hypothesis, that actually came from a professor at Utah State, I was using my wife as an example.  To prove his point, the professor asked our class of 60 by raise of hands who had eaten lamb.  Few of us raised our hands.  When asked why the rest hadn’t, the biggest reply was they had heard it was gross from an older family member, and many had served.  Fact is, sheep numbers peaked in 1942 but by 1950 the numbers had decreased by almost half.  I’m sure there are multiple factors apart, (new grazing restrictions, less people farming/ranching) but word of mouth can destroy any reputation.
We had that very discussion in a national pork producers meeting in Missouri, insuring the consumer has a good experience so that they not only continue using our product but will encourage others to as well.
I understand that there will be people who don’t like the taste and odor (that goes for any meat) but how do you get people who don’t know any better to try?  Pork and beef can get away with commercial advertisements because most people have at least tried those meats (if you haven’t, you’re missing out I promise).  For a product that most people haven’t tried, you must find every opportunity to give them that chance.
For example, every year in Utah we have the sheepdog trials at Soldier Hollow.  The first booth you pass on entrance is the Utah Wool Growers Association grilling up free lamb samples.  Every person who comes in immediately gets that opportunity to try lamb.  Maybe you like it, maybe you don’t but you at least can now say you’ve had it.  Then lunch rolls around and you can get a lamb burger/gyro/taco to really decide.
Of course price is still a deterrent, why buy a lamb chop when a pork chop is a fraction of the cost.  Of course I won’t complain if you buy the pork chop, that’s my job security.


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## greybeard (Aug 7, 2018)

High Desert Cowboy said:


> Fact is, sheep numbers peaked in 1942 but by 1950 the numbers had decreased by almost half


Yes, but you're talking about a timeline of 68-78 years ago. It's also true, that there are fewer sheep in America today than there was 200 years ago...something happen in the War of 1812 that turned the whole country off of sheep products?
Every meat has tried to make inroads on beef. Pork, the other white meat. Lamb..the other red meat.Eat more Chiken.  Even in Australia, the attempts have been less than successful and even devisive:
The meat that doesn't discriminate—lamb." The hashtag is #unitedwelamb or 'You never lamb alone".
This one really got bad reviews.




When you have to try that hard, go to that ridiculous extreme, you have bigger problems than an ad campaign can solve.
http://www.bandt.com.au/campaigns/latest-lamb-ad-labelled

Just a few of the nicer comments, which go a long way to pointing out the demographic they are trying to target:


> I didn’t find it funny but I can appreciate what Meat and Livestock Australia were trying to do, run the add, time to stop this PC crap.”
> 
> “More a political message than an ad for lamb.”
> 
> ...


And this one, ended up being banned by the regulating authority:





Meanwhile, in North America, this one simple little slogan has been extremely effective for 15+ years.
Beef. It's what's for Dinner

There is hope tho, as pointed out in the following article:
http://www.border-wars.com/2013/05/the-u-s-sheep-industry-is-belly-up.html
"_While it’s pretty clear that sheep-as-industry in the U.S. is reeling and at risk of extinction, there’s some hope to be had with the growing backyard barnyard fad pushing growth in the sheep-as-hobby sector

*Sheep are ideal for operations with a small acreage*. Most operations in the United States raise fewer than 100 head. *Growth of the industry will rely on these smaller operations growing and continuing to introduce more people to the industry* while at the same time tapping into local niche markets for lamb and mutton, wool, and dairy products.

Hobby sheep seem to be at the nexus of several major trends which have made the backyard barnyard lifestyle much more popular in the last few years.  Aging and increasingly childless yuppies are on board with the organic, sustainable, locavore, back to nature, farmers’ market culture which is a reaction against urbanization and globalization._"


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 7, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> Hey there Old Ram... How are you doing? How is your wife? I hope you're finding some relief time. Always good to see you've posted up.


G'day LS,as you may have read things are pretty tough down here at the present with the drought and all?I had the chance recently to have a chat with jenny's GP without her being present to bring him up to date with how she is progressing.He was not only surprised but quite concerned about the swift progression of the condition.He has urged me to start to arrange a plan for when I will be unable to care for her at home myself and not try to do it in a rush when the day arrives.She is still very active,although she "tires" quite quickly now and  all the problems are her mental capability and all the issues that brings,some days are certainly harder than others but at the end of the day a "few Whiskys" help....T.O.R.


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## Latestarter (Aug 7, 2018)

Terribly sorry for the both of you. What a horrible disease for all who have to deal with it.


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## Bruce (Aug 7, 2018)

High Desert Cowboy said:


> Every person who comes in immediately gets that opportunity to try lamb.


I'm in! We are going to New Brunswick and Nova Scotia later this month, DD 1 is looking at colleges. We are staying in NB at a place where the restaurant serves lamb. It is no accident I chose that place.


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## Mike CHS (Aug 7, 2018)

There is a fairly big push in the hair sheep industry to promote sheep in Tennessee.  In the "Pick Tennessee" program there is a fairly big list of restaurants.  The small farms are filling this niche and to be able to meet demand they are banding together but they have to do it with a broker. We get on average $1.80 a pound and they get whatever they get.  It still isn't a bad return for an animal that has received no input except for grass. The last big sale that we went to had sent 1100 sheep to market and I didn't see a single trailer that had more than probably 30 animals.  There was some bigger farms there also but I doubt that anyone had over 100 head.  We have one contact that exports to Mexico but they handle a couple of thousand breeders.


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## Bruce (Aug 7, 2018)

$1.80 a pound? Geez, nearly free after you take out the slaughter and processing fee.


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## Mike CHS (Aug 7, 2018)

Cattle at the same time was going for $1.07 a pound.  The $1.80 is what we got per animal on average there is no slaughter or processing fee. That is a completely different sale.


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## greybeard (Aug 7, 2018)

Mike CHS said:


> Cattle at the same time was going for $1.07 a pound.


How much did the 'cows' weigh?

I occasionally see a few sheep/lambs go thru our local sale, but more goats by far than sheep and lambs.
They bring a pretty good price/lb but are light, but I have to assume you can bring them to market weight quicker than the 6-8 months a 4 wt calf would sell for. I try to wean steers and intact bull calves at 450-500 lbs at around 6 months  but lately has been tough due to the heat and rainfall being so spotty..
(3-4 wt calves are what are bringing the highest per lb right now.)

My local auction market report is not available on line.
This one is pretty typical of East Texas last week, and is very close to where Baymule lives. There's a pretty good range in prices...these are averages.
STEERS
300 lbs-DOWN:.....$1.50-2.00 lb=$450-$600
300 lbs-400 lbs:....$1.35-1.90 lb=$405-$760
400 lbs-500 lbs:....$1.00-1.65 lb=$400-$825
500 lbs-UP:.........$.70-1.50 lb=$350 and up depending how much over 500lbs

Goats $  35-200 per head
http://emorylivestockauction.com/emory/emory-market-reports/


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## greybeard (Aug 7, 2018)

Another, somewhat  closer to me.  



 
Canners/cutters/boners usually mean older really thin broke mouth cows and over the hill bulls.......destined for the grinder most of the time.


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## Baymule (Aug 7, 2018)

I now have 9 ewes and a ram. Yeah, a real small producer. So far, I have had no problem selling slaughtered lamb for $10 a pound. I did sell 3 live lambs at weaning this time for $350 for the 3 of them. The next lambing will be interesting because I will have more lambs to sell.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 8, 2018)

Baymule said:


> I now have 9 ewes and a ram. Yeah, a real small producer. So far, I have had no problem selling slaughtered lamb for $10 a pound. I did sell 3 live lambs at weaning this time for $350 for the 3 of them. The next lambing will be interesting because I will have more lambs to sell.


G'day BM,after processing what was the weight of salable meat?...T.O.R.


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## Baymule (Aug 8, 2018)

I don’t know. A man bought them, stuffed them in the back of his brand new van and left. A brand new van! He paid us, he could be as stupid as he wanted to be.


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## Bruce (Aug 8, 2018)

Mike CHS said:


> Cattle at the same time was going for $1.07 a pound.  The $1.80 is what we got per animal on average there is no slaughter or processing fee. That is a completely different sale.


Ah, price on the hoof. I thought you were talking packaged meat.


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## Baymule (Aug 9, 2018)

Here is a link to a meat company north of us about 2-3 hours. He sells grass fed meat, and he buys his lamb and goat meat from where??? AUSTRALIA! Just thought I'd post this, interesting. He used to buy from local producers, not sure when he switched.

https://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/meat-store/products/category/grass-fed-lamb


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## greybeard (Aug 9, 2018)

Baymule said:


> Here is a link to a meat company north of us about 2-3 hours. He sells grass fed meat, and he buys his lamb and goat meat from where??? AUSTRALIA! Just thought I'd post this, interesting. He used to buy from local producers, not sure when he switched.





 
invisible link?


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## Baymule (Aug 9, 2018)

greybeard said:


> View attachment 51101
> invisible link?


Not any more!


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## greybeard (Aug 9, 2018)

Baymule said:


> Not any more!


I almost wish you had not included the link.
One of their re-occurring themes from the 'education' menu that's on the left of the home page:
_



			Grain-fed lambs, just like grain-fed people, are anemic.
		
Click to expand...

_Substitute the words beef, goats, dairy and you're now in tune with the rest of his ideology, which by the way does NOT include drinking milk.
A disciple of Loren Cordain, he is a big proponent of The Real Diet of Man, he had this to say:

_

 As for dairy, modern man is the only beast on earth that figures he needs milk after weaning. Dairy is one of man's most recent agricultural inventions. And all of this nonsense about drinking mil for strong bones and teeth is mythology. It really does not matter if milk is raw or not. It is flat out unnecessary post weaning. To make matters worse, nearly all diary products available today are from grain fed cows and goats_

Always interesting to note, that virtually all our grasses reproduce by seeds and seedheads, which of course is what grain is as well and there is little doubt among the reasonably educated people of the world, that our livestock, including cows, goats, poultry and swine all eat seeds along with the leafy parts.

Slanker's meat market is the marketing arm of his own Polled Hereford Ranch up in Powderly on 271 less than 10 miles before you cross in Oklahoma.


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## Latestarter (Aug 9, 2018)

I like dairy...


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## greybeard (Aug 9, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> I like dairy...


Is that a relatively recent agricultural development for you.....say, within the 7,500 years?


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## Bruce (Aug 9, 2018)

In @Latestarter's case, probably in the last 60 years!


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 9, 2018)

G'day,I think you folks are having "way to much fun" with this topic?...T.O.R.


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## Bruce (Aug 9, 2018)

Are we not supposed to have fun? OK, we'll stop 

That dairy thing. Seems to me it is a good thing we do dairy. Without it there would be no ice cream, no eggnog, no butter, no lots of things! And no sheep milk cheese.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 9, 2018)

Bruce said:


> Are we not supposed to have fun? OK, we'll stop
> 
> That dairy thing. Seems to me it is a good thing we do dairy. Without it there would be no ice cream, no eggnog, no butter, no lots of things! And no sheep milk cheese.


G'day ,of course its about having "fun".I'm so glad that it has generated the posts it has had..T.o.R.


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## High Desert Cowboy (Aug 9, 2018)

I have a question TOR.  In my area the sheep ranchers hold pretty strong to wool breeds of sheep, with most “range” sheep being some parts hamp/Suffolk cross.  I bought a hair ram and the old boys act like I bought a bright pink Prius while I was at it.  Over there is there a similar mentality toward hair sheep or have they begun to replace wool sheep?


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## Baymule (Aug 9, 2018)

I'm doing my part to liven up the sheep industry!

good question @High Desert Cowboy. I have a question about the wool sheep. Do the ranchers make more money on shearing the wool, or more money selling the lambs?


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 9, 2018)

G'day to you all,to answer HDC first.When we first brought our current farm out 2 neighbors were Fine Wool Merino breeders and we were told in no uncertain terms that "you keep those black-faced rams away from our stock".over the years other (so-called newcomers)have introduced all manner of sheep breeds including Hair breeds and in recent times they(the original farmers) have changed over to 2nd X prime lamb and away from straight wool sheep.Merinos Fine wool and finer are notorious for "poor lambing %",indifferent mothers and predisposed to "dropping dead " for no apparent reason plus the problems with flystrike and worms..In the last 10 years or so the Hair breeds have taken over much of the country which was considered as "wether country" for wool production and after the "crash" they could not cover the cost of production.I suspect that we lost about 80 million Merinos from the national flock,we now have about 75 million sheep and the reason wool prices are so high is that they were not economic to keep and so many farmers converted to Meat sheep and of late to Hair breeds due to their hardiness and lower running costs.Of course those that are left are now reaping the returns for their work.

BM,It depends on not only the sheep ,but the land and the COP.We have wool-growers now who are producing 12 mic Merino wool which is as fine as Cashmere and their are plenty growing 14 mic for good returns in the current market,but its expensive to produce and as I said before the reproduction rates are not great it gets back to what your "passion is"...T.O.R.


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## Bruce (Aug 10, 2018)

High Desert Cowboy said:


> I bought a hair ram and the old boys act like I bought a bright pink Prius while I was at it.


That is not possible, you would have to buy a Prius in one of the standard colors and get it repainted. 

It does seem like there is a "My way and the WRONG way" with "long time" cattle and sheep people. Not only "Don't bring that species HERE" but also "Don't bring that breed HERE". Its not like the are wind or insect "pollinated" and will mess up the existing herds. What does it matter if someone chooses a different path? Maybe they don't think coming in and doing the same thing as everyone else is the best business plan in a saturated market.


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## greybeard (Aug 10, 2018)

Bruce said:


> Are we not supposed to have fun? OK, we'll stop
> 
> That dairy thing. Seems to me it is a good thing we do dairy. Without it there would be no ice cream, no eggnog, no butter, no lots of things! And no sheep milk cheese.


You have to remember, that the guy that wrote that is raising Herefords............... not Jersey, Guernsey, or Holstein. 
just follow the $$$$ but I'm pretty sure he would just love for any milk drinker to buy one (or more) of his books.......whether they get it to read  the pages or wipe  their behinds with when TBSSHTF.


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## High Desert Cowboy (Aug 10, 2018)

Most of the money comes from selling lambs for meat. For a long while, or so I’ve been told, the price of wool basically covered the price of shearing.  That’s an added difficulty as well, as there are less and less shearers in the US.  Some are using groups from New Zealand who come to the States in their off season, but if more and more folks start going to hair sheep in the Southern Hemisphere that could die out as well.  We talk about a new generation not wanting to do the hard labor of a rancher or farmer, even less want to grow up and be a sheep shearer.  I did my one ewe with hand shears and can safely say I wouldn’t want to make a career of it.
That labor is another thing killing the industry, not only lack of shearers but shepherds in general.  Lots of guys bring guys from Peru here for a few seasons, and that’s becoming a nightmare with all the immigration issues.  How many people you know want to earn low wages living in a sheep camp?  A full summer out on the range with no power or real facilities?  Sounds great I know but that’s a single mans job.  I told my wife when I retired (long ways down the road) I wouldn’t mind selling everything and living in a sheep camp (those little trailers with a little stove, eating area, and bed).  I was told I was welcome too but I better be building her a house next door.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 10, 2018)

G'day,there is money to be made raising Merinos for wool.The indicator price for 21 mic(these sheep are big and hardy) is around $20.00 per kg at the minute,They "cut" upwards of 8 kg per head.All up shed costs would run about $12.00 a head I reckon.In my opinion its a "numbers game",you run a commercial flock alongside a stud flock and have about 8000/10000 head on the run of "suitable country".To be successful on this lighter country you need really good fencing,superior wild dog controls and dont "drive" your country too hard in the bad times .
T.O.R.


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## High Desert Cowboy (Aug 10, 2018)

I’ve never known anyone with a commercial Merino flock, but with your mention of them being poor mothers,lambers, susceptible to random acts of God, etc it seems like it would be very difficult to make any sort of profit.


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## Bruce (Aug 11, 2018)

High Desert Cowboy said:


> I was told I was welcome too but I better be building her a house next door.


At least she didn't tell you to remember to send the alimony checks monthly!


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Aug 11, 2018)

G'day, I don't think you all "appreciate" how good all the humor is for me in these difficult time with the farm and stuff.

On the subject of wool production,as I mentioned before those who "stayed" are reaping really good rewards at the present.In the example I quoted $20.00 a kg,8 kg wool cut =$160.00 per head X 1000 hd +$160000.00 as your gross.Even if you are working a margin of 30% as your nett (which to my mind is not unreasonable to expect) and this is as well as animal sales should enable you to look after a family in a reasonable fashion?

If you move down the micron scale to say 18 mic the value of the wool cheque is substantially greater as well as the animal sales,but you fixed costs are the same and the increased variable costs are nowhere as great as the added value of the wool.T.O.R.


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## Baymule (Aug 11, 2018)

You should hang out here more often, we lambast each other with LOTS of humor!


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