# Ivomec Plus for barberpoles



## chels24 (Jun 14, 2011)

I was wondering if Ivomec Plus works for barborpole worms. I have heard people telling people that have goats with bottlejaw to give them Cydectin and then rotate with Ivomec Plus ten days later. Is that right? thanks


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 14, 2011)

short answer YEs.

Long answer:

Any of them are suppose to work, ivermectin, cydectin, valbazene and safeqaurd.The question is, are the worms resistant in your area to the wormer?    Around here ivermectin plus would not do it for us.  We have had a little luck with safeagaurd, but we mostly use cydectin and valbazene.  I do on occasion use a horse wormer called equimax, which does contain ivermectin, but also contains a tapeworm medicine calle praziquantel

The answer to your question, is yes, you can use cydectin then 10 days later ivermectin plus.  Do you need to go with such a strong wormer right away?  We would. But neither of these wormers treat for tapeworms.

You can also start with safegaurd and give that for 3 days in a row at 3x the label dosage and then go with ivermectin a week later or valbazene. 


If one was going to be perfect in a perfect world, you would run a fecal, treat with a wormer wait a couple days, run another fecal, see how it worked, if it didn't work go with a stronger wormer. ect....


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## hossfeathers (Jul 21, 2011)

Another thought -

Test fecals, treat with ivormectin first to those animals that need it, test fecals again, and only upgrade to a stronger dewormer if you're not getting results.  Once you get resistence, it can take decades to get it out.  Better to check first.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 21, 2011)

Personally, I think our best defense against barberpole worms right now is COWP -- copper oxide wire particles.  COWP doesn't kill larval barberpoles waiting to mature in the goat's abomasum, and it doesn't have a real long-lasting effect against worms, but it's pretty daggone effective against the *adult* barberpoles that are sucking down the goat's blood at any given moment..

Something I found of particular interest was a study where it was simply added to feed instead of being bolused..  Even though it was ostensibly being chewed up -- a no-no for COWP when it comes to treating *copper defiency* -- it still worked as a dewormer..  Now, given the fact that it's pretty universally agreed that it's probably not a good idea to give a goat too much COWP (copper can be very toxic), the first thing I thought was.....hey.....if I can let them chew this stuff up and not really get much of the copper benefit out of it, then perhaps I could do it more often strictly to kill worms?

I haven't determined whether or not that's true yet, but what I do *believe* is that if a person were to start giving adult goats about 2-3g of COWP in a handful of feed starting in early July and continue that once a month through, say, early October, that's only 8-12g of COWP for the year..  And they may not even be absorbing the majority of that, but instead passing it right out in feces..  So it shouldn't be very dangerous at all, right?  ( RIGHT?!  )  Yet, it should still put a pretty good hurt on the barberpole population, just when they're at the height of their destructive power..

That's just me thinking, though..  I've dosed a few of my goats that way so far, and some are about to receive their 2nd dose of the season..  I don't do fecals because I don't have the time or money or inclination and I *know* what's eating at them (literally) anyway, so I can't say for sure that it's gonna work (and not kill any of them)..  But nobody's in *too* bad of a shape just yet.  We'll see, I guess.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 21, 2011)

We have been very happy with the coper bolusing that we did this spring, we also don't do fecals, but I can say for sure we have wormed way less this spring and summer, Infact atleast half the does haven't been wormed since last fall. We only worm as needed, based on body conditon and famancha scale. 
We were going to try doing 2 boluses a year, for sure one early spring. 
I even tried doing just some red cell instead of worming the goat right away, and even that seemed to be helpful. the thought process being, the healthier the goat the better they can handle and fight off a worm load. 

cmjust: I appreciate you keeping up with this research, I have found it very interesting.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> We have been very happy with the coper bolusing that we did this spring, we also don't do fecals, but I can say for sure we have wormed way less this spring and summer, Infact atleast half the does haven't been wormed since last fall. We only worm as needed, based on body conditon and famancha scale.
> We were going to try doing 2 boluses a year, for sure one early spring.
> I even tried doing just some red cell instead of worming the goat right away, and even that seemed to be helpful. the thought process being, the healthier the goat the better they can handle and fight off a worm load.
> 
> cmjust: I appreciate you keeping up with this research, I have found it very interesting.


You may have front-loaded your deworming by bolusing in early Spring..  See, what a lot of folks don't know is that barberpoles don't do a very good job of overwintering on pasture, so the vast majority of the barberpoles you start with each year overwintered *in the goats* in a dormant state..  Their inability to successfully overwinter on pasture is -- so far as I've been able to determine -- the only real weakness of haemonchus contortus.  Aside from that, they're pretty much perfect.  Right up there with sharks, in my opinion...  Marvels of evolution.

Anyway, they overwinter in the host in a dormant state, 'wake up' in the Spring, molt into adults in the abomasum, latch on to the lining, and start sucking blood and making eggs.  Their numbers are so low in the early spring that they don't even cause the goat problems..  Those eggs hatch in the grass, are ingested, molt into adults, and make more eggs..  Round and round she goes until there are *so many* of the little buggers that they're literally bleeding the goats dry.  Countless generations of barberpoles come and go in a given season..

But let's just say you reduced the number of overwintered barberpoles by...I dunno...80%, for instance, by bolusing with copper in the early Spring, when they'd juuuuuust woken up, and before they'd had a chance to contaminate the pasture too badly.  That kind of early reduction is *definitely* going to affect their ability to progress to an epidemic state because you've not only simply dewormed your animal -- you've effectively undercut the entire life cycle of the barberpole worm at their weakest, most vulnerable point!



FWIW, I've pretty continuously looked into ways to effect really high kill rates on *larval* barberpoles..  Not many dewormers will kill them when they're dormant because...um...well, they're kinda like zombies, in a way.  Not really dead; not really alive.  They don't suck enough blood for dewormer-tainted blood to kill them, and their physical features in the larval state -- for whatever reason -- render them far less susceptible to being killed by direct-contact with orally administered dewormer..  If we're talking about larva that are genetically resistant to a dewormer, FORGET IT..  They're basically invincible.  My understanding is that **even copper** won't kill larval barberpoles..  

However..   ..ivermectin *used* to kill larval stages.  It doesn't anymore because it's been overused, but it *used* to..  That's the important thing..  And new dewormers out, and are being used in other countries..  And I know of at least one that's been in use overseas for years, but isn't in the US...but really kinda is in the US in a hush-hush/off-label kinda way...and it's supposed to effect a near 100% kill on larval barberpoles if they have no resistance to it (which none here would)..  The only problem with that last one is that it must be dosed very accurately by weight, so you kinda need a livestock scale..  If you o/d, they'll go blind..  And plus, what we have available with that stuff in it here in the US has usually been repackaged, and if it wasn't mixed properly before being repackaged, your *actual* concentrations of med may be *way, way off* so you'd kinda need to get a whole, unopened jug..  Which would be difficult..  And expensive..  And probably illegal..   

ANYHOO...new wormers, when they come out and if they kill larval stages, would be a really, really good thing for us goat producers who were smart enough to know *when* to use them.  There are documented trials out there that employed this strategy on sheep which found that it was the only deworming needed FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR.

So, anyway...ya...you might have come as close as you could to doing something like this if you bolused at juuuuust the right time this year.  Whether you'll ever hit that sweet spot again is anybody's guess, but if you did what I suspect you did this year...kudos.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 22, 2011)

Good info, thanks CM.  

In light of that I think I'll continue my plan to bolus in the spring - just after kidding as I did this year.  Then again a month before breeding begins.  According to the vet we only occasionally get barber pole here - though we're usually very hot and very dry through most of the year and then get below freezing and snow through the winter months - so maybe that helps  .  

I do know that I can't rely on a fecal.  I got clean fecals back from my vet even when I saw creepy crawlies wigglin' around on her butt.  Clean fecal my a@*!  So I need to be proactive in preventing them and watch for signs of worms and treat accordingly.  

In "Natural Goat Care" Pat Colby states that a goat with proper copper levels will resist most all worms - have you found the extra copper helping your overall wormload or just helping against barber pole?


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## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Good info, thanks CM.
> 
> In light of that I think I'll continue my plan to bolus in the spring - just after kidding as I did this year.  Then again a month before breeding begins.  According to the vet we only occasionally get barber pole here - though we're usually very hot and very dry through most of the year and then get below freezing and snow through the winter months - so maybe that helps  .
> 
> ...


I know I'm not going to make any friends by saying this, but I don't think copper bolusing is a very good way to manage copper levels.  If you get one that's been without mineral for a while and you need to boost it, sure...but you really should be managing copper with good mineral.  Having said that, I pretty much view copper oxide wire particles strictly as a 'barberpole treatment' at this point..  

Oh, and FWIW...  The wiggly worms you saw on your goat's butt weren't barberpoles.  You probably know that, but lots of folks don't seem to make any distinction between worms...  Worms are worms, right?  Wrong.  You'll pretty much never see a barberpole or any other *stomach worm* on a goat's butt because they'll be mascerated and turned into pellets on their way out.  That means what you saw was some kind of *gut worm* -- not a stomach worm.  So while it was probably a serious OMGAH moment to see worms wigglin on your goat's but...they were just gut worms, and gut worms don't *typically* give goats too much of a problem. 

They're not something to ignore, of course, but it's the ones you don't see that will kill them dead as hammers.

Just sayin.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 22, 2011)

We wormed for tapeworms a couple weeks ago with equimax horse paste, and the next day there was literally handfuls laying on the ground in piles. 

cm: do you have any suggestions about our nasty tapeworm problems.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 22, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I know I'm not going to make any friends by saying this, but I don't think copper bolusing is a very good way to manage copper levels.  If you get one that's been without mineral for a while and you need to boost it, sure...but you really should be managing copper with good mineral.  Having said that, I pretty much view copper oxide wire particles strictly as a 'barberpole treatment' at this point..


I know Pat Colby doesn't use the COWP boluses at all.  For mineral AND for worm prevention she uses copper sulfate.  She uses it in varying ratios for all her livestock.  I've been afraid to use it myself, since so many claim it's a quick way to kill your goats - but it seems to be working for her.  I believe she even sets up individual mineral stations so that they can self regulate - that is, she'll put out a bin of just copper sulfate, and just dolomite, etc and let them take what they need from each individual bin.  Instead, for now, I've been sticking with the best goat mineral with the highest levels of copper I can find locally, which is currently Sweetlix Meat Maker.  Manna Pro had a good one too - but it's super expensive so I switched.

According to her books - if you get the mineral balance right in your goats as well as in your pasture there aren't many problems you'll run into.  It's a good read, I'm just too new at this whole farmin' thing to know if it works when put into practice.

Please do keep us updated with your research and trial runs on your goats with the copper CM - I'd really like to know of your results.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 24, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> So, anyway...ya...you might have come as close as you could to doing something like this if you bolused at juuuuust the right time this year.  Whether you'll ever hit that sweet spot again is anybody's guess, but if you did what I suspect you did this year...kudos.


I did it last year in one paddock and missed it this year.  The amount of money I saved on anthelmintics like Ivermec, Cydectin and Safeguard was astounding.  Though this year was a bit more wet than last year, I was obviously about 3 weeks late with the boluses.  My thought for next year is; two weeks after the first rain in March the goats get bolused with 2 grams.  Any kid without an active rumen though will need to get a regular dewormer (ie most bottle babies).


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 24, 2011)

We only bolused our adult goats, We just poured out half the copper rods and gave them what appeared to be half the dose.  I still have the other half poured in a bag, and I need to get some more gel caps.We didn't do them all at the same time and didn't do all of them in the early spring, I should mention that. We also have out a co-op loose mineral, and the goats eat it like crazy. I feel the minerals has helped greatly, as well. We haven't always kept out mineral, often running out of it and not replacing it for a month or two, now I keep it out all the time. The co-op said they lost business when they switched from to this kind of mineral, because their biggest client is the cattle farmers, andt he cattle were eating it so fast the farmer couldn't afford to keep it out for them. I have studied the feed label and it seems to have everything in it that a good mineral should have, looking more grey than red, sulfates instead of oxides, ect...... 


I should also mention that we started aggresively addressing anemic goats, with less worming and more red cell and iron shots, sometimes both at the same time. I would give the doe 30cc of red cell and 4cc shot of iron 100, with a worming if I she was anemic. then I would repeat the red cell and iron shot every few days, until all signs of anemia were gone. It seemed addressing the anemia helped build up her system and set her up to fight off the worms. Otherwise we were having to reworm the same does every 32 or 3 weeks through out the summer. It seems like we have been able to break the cycle. 

a gallon of red cell is a heck of a lot cheaper than most the wormers. 

All these ideas we have started since reading the BYH threads, I would like to thank BYH for all the information. I know sometimes people don't agree and sometimes it gets frustraing, but it has been worth it for us.  
thank YOU.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 25, 2011)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> I did it last year in one paddock and missed it this year.  The amount of money I saved on anthelmintics like Ivermec, Cydectin and Safeguard was astounding.  *Though this year was a bit more wet than last year*, I was obviously about 3 weeks late with the boluses.  My thought for next year is; two weeks after the first rain in March the goats get bolused with 2 grams.  Any kid without an active rumen though will need to get a regular dewormer (ie most bottle babies).


I've read that in temperate climates, humidity is pretty much 100% down close to the soil line in pastures..  And that's year-round.  It's a micro-climate, basically, and one to which the barberpole is perfectly adapted.  So really no matter how hot, dry, and nasty it gets, nor how wet or dry the spring was, barberpoles are hatching out down in their little microclimate near the roots of grass and shimmying their way up to be eaten.

I've also read that a 'hay aftermath' is basically worm-free..  

I've wondered how well it might work to use COWP in conjunction with a bushhog in early Spring.........


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