# Cross NZ with French Angora?



## DianeS

I'm wondering what that would look like. 

I'm considering whether I will ever want to breed my French Angora doe to my NZ buck with the intention of producing rabbits that can be used for meat. I keep her for her wool, which I spin, but I'm wondering if its feasible to use her for breeding meat rabbits, too. 

I still have to run some numbers to see whether I would be better off having her non-pregnancy coat harvested regularly for wool vs having litters of kits from her vs some of each. One of the considerations is the pelts of the kits. What can they be expected to look like? Not color, but fur type - I don't know how the genetics for that work at all. Would they look like typical rabbit pelts, short furred? Or what?

(For those of you who remember my Angora does not mother her kits, I would breed at the same time as my three Cali does so I could foster the kits out between them.) 

Comments and thoughts appreciated. Thanks!


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## dbunni

The French Angora is a commercial (meat) rabbit.  Many breeders spin and eat from this lovely breed.  Of your angoras, only 1 is not a commercial/dual purpose animal ... that is the English ... they are the smallest of the breeds.  So ... French, Satin, German, and Giant are all meat purpose animals with an awsome coat to spin!
If crossed you will get both coat types ... of those with the longer coat, if you took them back to an angora you would continue the wool.  Takes a strong generation to remove the short coat from the program.  My question for you is simple, if you have a meat breed already and she is not a good mother ... why breed her?  There is a strong chance she will pass this tendancy on to her kits.  We do not ... do not ... keep poor mothers in the program here.  NZ or Angora.  I have culled BIS does because they were not good mothers.


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## Bunnylady

Long hair is recessive, so breeding a French Angora to a NZ would result in all short haired rabbits in the first generation. 

Oh, dbunni, I am stricken to the heart! You have omitted the Jersey Wooly and the Fuzzy Lop, are they not Angora breeds? OK, they certainly aren't commercial size, nor are they really useful for wool production, but they do have wool and are smaller than the English. I guess they really have to be classified as "no purpose" breeds, unless you count pet or show!


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## DianeS

dbunni said:
			
		

> My question for you is simple, if you have a meat breed already and she is not a good mother ... why breed her?  There is a strong chance she will pass this tendancy on to her kits.


Because I am doing the math, and wondering if there is a better return I could be getting out of the rabbits I already have. I am wondering if the Angora can do double-duty. 1 - as a producer of wool, and 2 - as a producer of kits that will be used for meat.

Her kits, as mixed breed meat rabbits would have a 100% cull rate. Therefore, I am unconcerned with any traits she might pass down. I am concerned solely with whether the kits she produced would be useful enough to make up for the amount of wool she would NOT produce while pregnant and pulling it for a nest. And to tip the balance in the favor of kits instead of wool-only, I would need to have traditional-looking rabbit pelts to tan. 

I have a very different business plan from the one you have. I don't breed to improve anything. I don't breed for showing, or for pets. I keep this Angora doe because she produces beautiful wool at a price cheaper than I can buy it, and because I do not need any more full Angora kits - the 8 I have are plenty to keep me in wool. And I might breed her to add to my meat pen, but only if I don't lose money by doing so. 

Make sense?


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## dbunni

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Long hair is recessive, so breeding a French Angora to a NZ would result in all short haired rabbits in the first generation.
> 
> Oh, dbunni, I am stricken to the heart! You have omitted the Jersey Wooly and the Fuzzy Lop, are they not Angora breeds? OK, they certainly aren't commercial size, nor are they really useful for wool production, but they do have wool and are smaller than the English. I guess they really have to be classified as "no purpose" breeds, unless you count pet or show!


Sorry   I was just thinking of the 5 angoras in general.  JW & AFLs are sweet and I know people who spin their fiber ... boy talk about taking time to save!!!  If you are talking about useless, get that alot about the EAs ... from people who multipurpose their angoras.  But then, who would want to try and pelt 12" of coat prior to eating!!!  TEHEEEE ... 

As for the longcoat gene ... you will see long in G1.  The GA is a product of 2 short coats (1 up ear, 1 lop ear) and the German Angora.  The long, or wooly coated, kids were kept to continue, the others were "invited to dinner" shall we say.  Short coats are often used to increase the size in the giant program when somebody runs astray ... as our gene pool is small.   Also ... Satin angoras came from ... what breed combination!  That is definately a short one!  The coat is not angora long, but it is definately longer than one of the parents and often contains an underwool or stand up coat.

Diane ... my question had nothing to do with show or improving the breed standard, persay.  It had more to do with trouble does and using them to their potential.  A doe who is a problem breeder/raiser/biter ... whatever ... is a liability to the rabbitry.  If I have to transfer her kits to another doe just to raise them, then she is not holding her own.  Plus she has taken away from those kits in essance.   My girls and guys are multipurpose ... love, show & wool ... not especially in that order.  But ... as a wise old man once told me ... "it is just as easy to love and feed a good one as a troubled one".  Just part of the decision process.   We only have so many holes to work with, so it is part of my personal decision process.  Spin her and enjoy ... that is what the wool is all about ... what lovely things they can produce and how great the fiber is to play with!


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## rabbitgeek

Cross NZ with French Angora?

You could. You should plan on 3 generations that will not be able to be registered since you need that NZ to move off the pedigree. The first one or two generations will have short wool. Third generation will start having angora type wool.

We did something similar with Satin Angoras. We bred to a Red Satin (short hair) to a Satin Angora buck. We kept and bred two does from that litter to Satin Angora bucks. At the third generation we were getting wool and much better bodies. 

We chose Satins so we could have Satin genes at the start. The Satin doe we chose also had good dense fur which carried over to the angoras giving them an extra measure of wool density.

So yes, you can.

Now, my lovely wife Tracy was a New Zealand rabbit breeder and she carried her experience to the French Angoras. She started selecting for body type and soon her rabbits were catching the attention of judges who are known meat rabbits. Like Manuel Hidalgo of Calif who couldn't believe that her FA had such good shoulders and hindquarters. My lovely wife was a fan of Manuel's NZ rabbits and Manuel was a fan of her FA! 

The body type genetics are in the French Angoras. It can be selected for and we think the rabbit will show the wool better on a healthy frame.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios


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## DianeS

dbunni said:
			
		

> We only have so many holes to work with, so it is part of my personal decision process.


Ahhh! Here is one of our differences. I can always build another cage, it's the startup money I don't have right now. 

My angora cost just $30, BECAUSE she is a bad mother. She has to pay off that $30 - and bring in some profit - before I can replace her with a different rabbit. A good Angora - one I can spin from, one that will mother her kits well, one who produces wonderfully tempermented kits that can be sold as pets, etc - will run me more than I have available right now. 

Being still a start-up, I can't even put any more cash into my rabbitry in general until I get SOMETHING back. I haven't had a live litter of meat rabbits yet at all.  That's why its so tempting to breed the angora -at least she has good-sized litters that she births well and in the nest. 

But now I'm just moaning. All startups have this headache, I suppose. Cages, feeders, nestboxes, rabbits, a few bags of food, all cost real money before one gets any profit. I'll stop moping now! (And instead I'll remember the last line of your post " ... that is what the wool is all about ... what lovely things they can produce and how great the fiber is to play with!")


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## rabbitgeek

If you want to breed her for meat rabbits, do it!

That will keep her in production until you can get an angora buck.

Have a good day!


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## tortoise

DianeS said:
			
		

> dbunni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question for you is simple, if you have a meat breed already and she is not a good mother ... why breed her?  There is a strong chance she will pass this tendancy on to her kits.
> 
> 
> 
> Because I am doing the math, and wondering if there is a better return I could be getting out of the rabbits I already have. I am wondering if the Angora can do double-duty. 1 - as a producer of wool, and 2 - as a producer of kits that will be used for meat.
> 
> Her kits, as mixed breed meat rabbits would have a 100% cull rate. Therefore, I am unconcerned with any traits she might pass down. I am concerned solely with whether the kits she produced would be useful enough to make up for the amount of wool she would NOT produce while pregnant and pulling it for a nest. And to tip the balance in the favor of kits instead of wool-only, I would need to have traditional-looking rabbit pelts to tan.
> 
> I have a very different business plan from the one you have. I don't breed to improve anything. I don't breed for showing, or for pets. I keep this Angora doe because she produces beautiful wool at a price cheaper than I can buy it, and because I do not need any more full Angora kits - the 8 I have are plenty to keep me in wool. And I might breed her to add to my meat pen, but only if I don't lose money by doing so.
> 
> Make sense?
Click to expand...

No, doesn't make sense for a couple reasons.  French Angoras are already a dual-purpose breed.  (That's why I got them).  If you harvest wool before you butcher, you'll be surprised how much wool you can get!  You won't have to keep 9 wool rabbits, keep one breeding pair or trio, feed out kits for meat and wool.

Even if you don't show, careful breeding is important.  In 2010 I took my rabbits from producing 1.75 oz per 3 months to 4+ oz in the same time.  I also select for larger size - a couple pounds over show weight (I'm also developing my show bunnies).


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## DianeS

tortoise said:
			
		

> No, doesn't make sense for a couple reasons.  French Angoras are already a dual-purpose breed.  (That's why I got them).  If you harvest wool before you butcher, you'll be surprised how much wool you can get!  You won't have to keep 9 wool rabbits, keep one breeding pair or trio, feed out kits for meat and wool.
> 
> Even if you don't show, careful breeding is important.  In 2010 I took my rabbits from producing 1.75 oz per 3 months to 4+ oz in the same time.  I also select for larger size - a couple pounds over show weight (I'm also developing my show bunnies).


I obviously wasn't clear - I don't have an Angora buck. So I can't keep a breeding pair or trio, I don't have a supply of purebred kits I can harvest wool from before I butcher them, and I can't be careful in my breeding and select for weight and wool production because I'm not breeding purebred Angoras. 

I do have 8 Angora kits, but the litter is nowhere near breeding age, and I am keeping them for wool production. 

I have one Angora doe, and I'm crunching numbers to see whether it's best to keep her ONLY as a wool producer, or if it would make sense for me to breed her to my NZ buck with the purpose of producing mixed breed rabbits for meat.

Hopefully that clears some of this up. I thought asking about the fur/wool that would be created by such a cross was an easy question, but I guess not!


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## dbunni

When I say we only have so many holes ... it is not a small number ... but strong double digits.  And yes, tons of room to expand.  But why?  If done properly you do not need tons of space/cages.  But you have to cull hard and know exactly what you are looking for.

the babies ... are they pure angoras?  If so, take one of them back to mom for production....when the time is right.  Most angora bucks will breed around 5 months.  

Wool ... awsome way to make income from angoras.  But ... but ... it must be a good quality wool, no staining, and properly harvested/packaged.  People want a very, very clean wool.  No stains or smell.  So we often use does instead of bucks.  Also, nothing from "down low".  I sell only midline and up across the back.  This is a strong quality wool.  You are looking for 3-5" ... but if you breed the doe this production will go into babies instead.  We harvest from non breeders/retired animals.  Breeders are kept short to help them stay comfortable.  In our barn, the life cycle of a bun is simple ... show to brood (does 1-3 litters most) to wool production.  Culls made along the way of course.  This way we get the most out of the rabbits.  You can just jump a step and go right to wool production ... learn to spin ... drop spindles are easy to make and fun to learn ... and the yarn is so dyable in a million ways (natural dyes to chemical and all in between).  I have seen some awsome "painted" yarns.

Income ... start a worm business under the pens.  Great income.  And can be easily done... if you have drop cages.  If not ... start an area outside for the worms.  Recyle the "poo"!!!!

Manure ... sell by the bag or truck load.  lots of that around here!

Babies ... NZ/Cali babies are butchered at/around 5#.  If done properly and you have good stock, this will be around 9-11 weeks.  Talk to some of the experienced meat breeders in your area they can give you an idea of their "secret recipe".  And yes it does make a difference.

Just some ideas to help you out ... it is hard in the beginning ... but the buns are so worth it in the end.  

Good luck ... Hug the buns!


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## DianeS

I'm learning a lot about what I want to do with my business plan in the future. I certainly might expand to purebred angoras after the kits are grown up (yes they're purebred) - they're only 7 weeks old right now. Unfortunately with their slow start in life and small stature I don't know if any will be good enough to breed. Time will tell. 

I look forward to them getting bigger, though. I have two possible outlets for selling angora fiber, but of course they want to see samples. Time will tell. 

Mom shed a small handful of wool about a month ago, and it's good quality, about 3.5 inches long and has the right feel to it. It is very nice to spin with that, even mixed with other fiber. I'm looking forward to getting more from her.

I definately collect the droppings and spilled straw, and compost it for the garden - right along with the chicken droppings and shavings. So far they've saved me about $30 in store-bought compost/manure that I don't have to buy this year because I have my own. It all goes on the garden. Maybe I'll have extra later in the year. 

So far all the Cali does have given me is manure and entertainment, and a bunch of dead kits. Even the experienced mother didn't have live ones. That was a disappointment. I was looking forward to having even one meat litter as a return by now. They've all been bred again, so maybe success next time. 

I did buy a litter of meat rabbits from someone else, and processed them all. I have the pelts in my freezer, waiting for a few more to join them for tanning. I don't have an outlet for pelts yet, but I can use them myself if other options fall through. Again, time will tell! 

Writing all that out makes me realize how big of a holding pattern I'm in right now. No wonder I'm frustrated and looking at options!


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## dbunni

Diane ... where are you located?  Check into the dog industry ... specifically anybody who trains hounds (whippets and greyhounds, etc) for lure coursing.  They will use the rabbit pelt, untanned, for training and for the lure itself.  Just a thought.  

Yes, the rabbit industry can have ups and downs.  We had 3 dead litters this breeding season, one from my BIS doe.  We were so excited.  But, mom is still alive ... so there is a silver lining!

Wool ... best harvested not shed.  Once it reaches the length you want, or starts to blow (shed), remove the whole coat.  This will give you a clean start for the new coat.  I'm not sure of the growth rate on Frenchies, but English can be an inch or better a month.  French are somewhat less.  So, in essance, you could harvest ever 4 months.

Kits ... you should be seeing your keepers by now.  I usually can pick my "pick" by 4 weeks ... and then pray I am correct on gender!  If you are keeping for wool, keep those that are healthiest first and then what colors you can work to sell.  For the best luck, have a couple of the same color this way you have that wool available in larger amounts.

Good luck ...


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## rabbitgeek

DianeS said:
			
		

> I thought asking about the fur/wool that would be created by such a cross was an easy question, but I guess not!


The first cross generation will not have wool. 

The angora gene is recessive so it won't show in in the first cross generation.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios


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## DianeS

dbunni said:
			
		

> Diane ... where are you located?  Check into the dog industry ... specifically anybody who trains hounds (whippets and greyhounds, etc) for lure coursing.  They will use the rabbit pelt, untanned, for training and for the lure itself.  Just a thought.


I had not thought about that, thank you for the idea! I'm in central Colorado (Colorado Springs). 



> Once it reaches the length you want, or starts to blow (shed),...


I know it's called blowing the coat when it all seems to come loose and needs to be plucked at the same time. But is it still called blowing if only part of it does? In my doe's case, a patch about three inches square on her lower back came loose and was easily plucked out, but nowhere else. Would that be blowing or shedding - or some other word?


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## dbunni

It's all blowing when it comes to angoras ... short coats shed.  But most people are not familiar with the term so I put both to help explain.

Yes to the patch.  All angoras have a different blow/shed pattern.  Most start at the shoulders and move back along the spine.  Could take up to 2 weeks if left to do naturally.  Once the coat starts to go, in EAs, we help it along and just start plucking!  But we are a plucked breed.  What did the skin look like under the patch she blew?  Was there any irritation or what would look like lots of dry skin?  If the latter, she may have a case of wool mites and need to be treated.  Check and let's talk from there.  Often if they blow at the tail base it is more mites ... it is the common spot for them to have a flare up.

Colorado ... you should have some people there to use your pelts.  Might have to ship, but that could be worked into the contract.  If you have dog tracks that is a posibility also.  They do not require the pelts to be cleaned.  The lady I have just wants them in individual bags.  This way they can pull out as needed without fighting the whole batch.  We use ziplock larger.  I supply the receipt and she adds it on to the payment.  Might try posting on Craigslist or similar.  Computers are great tools for research.


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## DianeS

Her skin, under the blown area, did not have any irritation or dryness or dandruff or anything like that. The fur was thinner there, of course, but nothing unhealthy-looking about the skin. She had some dandruff when I first got her, I added some sunflower seeds to her diet for the oil, and it seems to have worked.

I brush her regularly, and that patch just started to come out so I plucked it, but no other area would come loose. When brushing I often get a few hairs, of course, but that patch gave me a good fluffy handful of wool. (All of which I laid carefully in a row folded in tissue paper! LOL!) It's been about a month, and no new loose areas that can be plucked yet. 

Do remember she was over-bred when I got her. She'd just turned a year old and was on her fourth pregnancy. So I have wondered if that could throw off her wool production for quite a while and she needs time to settle in to using her body and the available nutrition for something else. Am I thinking correctly about that?


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## tortoise

rabbitgeek said:
			
		

> DianeS said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought asking about the fur/wool that would be created by such a cross was an easy question, but I guess not!
> 
> 
> 
> The first cross generation will not have wool.
> 
> The angora gene is recessive so it won't show in in the first cross generation.
> 
> Have a good day!
> Franco Rios
Click to expand...

The "angora gene"?  Tell me about it.


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## rabbitgeek

tortoise said:
			
		

> The "angora gene"?  Tell me about it.


It's the gene that controls the length and quality of the hair shaft. It's not a single gene as much as inheritable traits.

By observing cross breedings with furred (short hair) and wooled (long hair) rabbits, one will soon notice that rabbits from fur/wool breedings will have short hair in the first generation. 

Breed the fur/wool kits to a wool rabbit and one will get fur/2wool kits with longer hair but not really wool in the second generation. 

Breed the fur/2wool kits to a wool rabbit and one will start to see some rabbits with full wool (fur/3wool) while others only have long hair/short wool (fur/2wool) in the third generation.

Further selective breedings to wool rabbits will improve the length and quality of the wool.

The 2wool, 3wool references are only for illustration and are not found in anybody's genetics book. 

The effect of the wool gene (traits) is (are) recessive to the normal fur gene. 

There are a number of modifiers (traits) that affect the quality and length of the wool. You can have satin wool, long hairy wool, thin cottony wool, molting, non-molting, double coat and triple coat. 

There is a modifier that creates the Lionhead rabbit, or the French Angora with clean (short hair) face/forelegs, the English with wool all over, the Fuzzy Lop, Jersey Wooly, and others. 

As a member of NARBC (Nat'l Angora Rabbit Breeders Club) you would have received a handbook and I believe there is discussion of the wool gene in that book?

I hope this information is helpful. While I'm not a geneticist, describing in this manner the effects I've observed from breeding rabbits helps me to understand and forecast the effects for subsequent breedings.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios


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## tortoise

rabbitgeek said:
			
		

> tortoise said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "angora gene"?  Tell me about it.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the gene that controls the length and quality of the hair shaft. It's not a single gene as much as inheritable traits.
> 
> By observing cross breedings with furred (short hair) and wooled (long hair) rabbits, one will soon notice that rabbits from fur/wool breedings will have short hair in the first generation.
> 
> Breed the fur/wool kits to a wool rabbit and one will get fur/2wool kits with longer hair but not really wool in the second generation.
> 
> Breed the fur/2wool kits to a wool rabbit and one will start to see some rabbits with full wool (fur/3wool) while others only have long hair/short wool (fur/2wool) in the third generation.
> 
> Further selective breedings to wool rabbits will improve the length and quality of the wool.
> 
> The 2wool, 3wool references are only for illustration and are not found in anybody's genetics book.
> 
> The effect of the wool gene (traits) is (are) recessive to the normal fur gene.
> 
> There are a number of modifiers (traits) that affect the quality and length of the wool. You can have satin wool, long hairy wool, thin cottony wool, molting, non-molting, double coat and triple coat.
> 
> There is a modifier that creates the Lionhead rabbit, or the French Angora with clean (short hair) face/forelegs, the English with wool all over, the Fuzzy Lop, Jersey Wooly, and others.
> 
> As a member of NARBC (Nat'l Angora Rabbit Breeders Club) you would have received a handbook and I believe there is discussion of the wool gene in that book?
> 
> I hope this information is helpful. While I'm not a geneticist, describing in this manner the effects I've observed from breeding rabbits helps me to understand and forecast the effects for subsequent breedings.
> 
> Have a good day!
> Franco Rios
Click to expand...

I did not receive a handbook / have not bought one.  I know there are many genes that contribute to wool types.  That's why I had to question the quick reference in your post that came off as there being one gene with two alleles: wooled and non wooled.  Thanks for expanding on it.


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## rabbitgeek

I understand what you are saying.

It might be better in the future if I said the "angora genes" (plural) are recessive to the short hair genes.

Thank you for your feedback.

Have a good day!
Franco Rios


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