# Is this cross would make a good family cow?



## Farmerboy (Mar 13, 2012)

I have been looking for a heifer that is due in spring for a few months now. My dad wants a dual type, so we can raise any calves that the cow gives for the freezer, and milk production for us to use.

I found the ad on Craigslist, and would like the expert's opinion on this before getting her.

Thanks for any advice.

The ad-

*cow pregnant heifer*

She is due to calf for the first time in mid-spring. Beautiful, healthy, well tempered, grassfed guernsey/angus cross. She was weaned naturally. Must sell--moving out of state.


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## redtailgal (Mar 14, 2012)

YOu need to find out what she was bred to, what vaccinations she has had, and how she is being fed now (you dont want a hard keeper)


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## Cricket (Mar 15, 2012)

She is pretty!  I would agree with RTG on finding what she's bred to.  You don't want a cow with a smallish pelvis bred to a Holstein or something else big.  If you're buying her at beef prices, it doesn't seem to me you have a lot to lose unless you have a calving problem, as if she doesn't work out for a milker you can always beef her.  It would be worth it to go see her and see if you like her.  She won't be apt to let you handle her udder, but you can see if she goes ballistic in a new situation.  It takes awhile to build a relationship sometimes.  (After your questions on milking shorthorns, I started paying more attention to the ones where I work, and come to find out I really like them a lot.  When you're milking a lot of cows, it's the pleasant, mind their own business ones that slip under your radar.  Thank you!)


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## Farmerboy (Mar 15, 2012)

I finally got hold of the guy again, and he said that she was bred to a Lowline Angus bull, never been vaccinated, and is on just hay, never grain.

That sounds fine to me, but would like your inputs.


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## redtailgal (Mar 15, 2012)

Sounds like a go to me.  I'd buy her, but I wouldnt go much over market prices in your area.


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## Farmerboy (Mar 15, 2012)

He  had posted her in January for $1900.00, but now its $1450.00. He is willing to deliver her for $50.00 since its about an hour drive to our place. We will check her out personally before buying her.

Thank you for the help!

BTW RTG, that bull calf that had the lumpy jay is doing fine, and the area where the lump was, is almost smooth.


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## redtailgal (Mar 15, 2012)

I'm glad to hear about your calf.  You did a good job caring for that calf.


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## Farmerboy (Apr 2, 2012)

I was in the area this morning, but the owner was not home, but I took some pictures of the heifer. As soon the heifer saw me, she came up to the fence, and I gave her a handful of grass, and she slowly took it, and ate it. 

Please let me know what you all think about her.


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## redtailgal (Apr 2, 2012)

Hey there! Been wondering how you and your cows werer doing.


She's not perfect, but if her attitude is good, I think she'd be ok.  

Are you planning on milking? Her udder is ok, teats look milkable.  I'd see if I could pretend milk her before I bought her.  Keep in mind that she's never been trained to milk, so she probably wont stand still for it, but if she starts kicking or goes bat crazy on you, then pass on her and move on to another heifer.

If your not gonna milk, but instead plan to only use her for meat babies, you'll need to be sure to breed her to a meaty dad, as she had a definate dairy look to her, with not much meat.

ALso........she may be wormy.  I'd make sure that she is wormed a good 3 days BEFORE you bring her onto your own property.


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## Farmerboy (Apr 2, 2012)

Thanks for the reply!

We plan to have a cow so we can have fresh milk. 

Not perfect in what way? I just want to see things in your perspective.
How can you tell if she is wormy?

I will pretend milk her before we buy her.

My dad told me to keep my eyes open for other heifers available before making a final decision. There is a monthly heifer sale at the local auction this Thursday, and they always have about 100 open to freshening heifers. I plan to call the morning of the auction day to see if they have any breeds besides Holsteins. They are all vet checked. They had just Holsteins last time. But, the issue I have with the auctions is, I can't go up to each heifer and pretend milk them to see if they starts kicking or goes bat crazy on me. lol


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## redtailgal (Apr 2, 2012)

Her imperfections are not terrrible for what you are wanting.  Her back line could definately stand to be a little straighter, and the shape of her rump is a little off.  It's basic conformation......not a big deal since you are not looking for a show animal.  She looks a little knock knee'd in one of the pics......... Not a top of the line, improve the herd breeder, but probably fine for what you are wanting to do (it's not all about looks, lol)


If her attitude was good, and the price was right for the area, I'd buy her for a family cow.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 2, 2012)

No she definitely isn't perfect.  Her face makes me think she's more Holstein than Guernsey.  In addition to Red's comments, she's tight in the heart girth, coarse in the shoulders, and lacks depth in the front.  She almost looks cow-hocked as well.  Her rear looks wrong probably because she's probably standing with her back end slightly up hill.  She looks a bit better in the first picture (03/13/12 post) than what you had posted. 

I've seen worse heifers, though.


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## Farmerboy (Apr 7, 2012)

Thanks for all the inputs on her. You all were scaring me about her looks, but I had to remind myself that she is for family use not for showing.  The owner has seen the the parents, and the mother is a Guernsey. They only had her for 6 months, but they have to move to Idaho, and can't take her.

I drove to look at the heifer again, and the owners were home this time.

She let me scratch her back, and she ate grass from my hand. 
As I was scratching her rump, I touched her udder, and she took off about ten feet. She was not tied up or anything. But she did not kick, just bolted. I am sure that once we get her halter trained, and she calms down from the trip, she will be easy to work with. 

AND we are getting her on Monday or Tuesday!!! She will be delivered to our place as we do not have a trailer, and my dad does not have the time to drive a hour there and a hour back.


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## redtailgal (Apr 7, 2012)

congratulations!  Keep us posted on how things work out.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Apr 9, 2012)

Congrats!  More learning and experiences to come.


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## Farmerboy (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks all!

The heifer will be delivered tomorrow! 
I will take LOTS of pictures.


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## Cricket (Apr 10, 2012)

That's just too exciting!  Do you know her approximate due date?  Wonder what the calves are going to think of her!


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## Farmerboy (Apr 10, 2012)

She is due in April/May. 

I can't wait to see November and Pancake's reaction, but the heifer will be locked in the shed for a week before letting her out to the pen. She will not be able to be in the pasture with the steers two weeks after that. I want her to get use to her new home for a few weeks before letting her out.


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## redtailgal (Apr 10, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> She is due in April/May.
> 
> I can't wait to see November and Pancake's reaction, but the heifer will be locked in the shed for a week before letting her out to the pen. She will not be able to be in the pasture with the steers two weeks after that. I want her to get use to her new home for a few weeks before letting her out.


Smart plan.  Your turning into an excellent cattleman!


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## Farmerboy (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks RTG!

We got the heifer!!!!! Will post more about it tonight, and lots of pictures.


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## Farmerboy (Apr 10, 2012)

Here she is in her new home!!!
















Is it possible to tell this point when is her calf due?





One of my 5 sisters.






Me giving her a back scratch. I am 5' 8 1/2'' tall, so she is not a very big heifer.





We gave her lots of grass from our yard, and ate it from out hands.
She would not touch the hay that was already there, so I got a different type of hay for her from a hay farmer that I worked for last summer, and she really drove in to that hay. While she was eating it, I had combed her down completely, and was able to ''milk'' her.  She shifted her back legs while I was ''milking'' her, so in a week or two, she might stand still for me.  Got a good deal on the hay that she really likes! 2.50 a bale of very high quality hay, but its a bit musty, hence the reason I got a good deal! Got only 5 to see if she likes it first before getting around 40 more bales.


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## redtailgal (Apr 11, 2012)

Great!  She looks good.

Looks to me like she has a while before she calves, hubby and I both agree at least a month.  You may or may not see more udder forming.  You'll know shes close when the head of her tail is very prominent.  Her girl parts will get VERY soft and squishy looking (even jiggling when she walks). The girls parts may even sag open a little shortly before she delivers.  She may get a little "snarky" a week or so before she births, so watch for attitude changes.  Be patient, but dont take any crap off her either.

Go ahead and "milk" her for now, but as she gets closer to delivering let her udder alone, to prevent infection and to allow it to develop normally, you dont want to over stimulate and cuase her to start leaking colostrum.


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## Cricket (Apr 11, 2012)

She is a cutie!  She looks so mellow for having just made a big move.  She also looks in better condition than she did in your first photo.  It'll be good for her to have a little time to settle in before calving.  Are the calves close enough that they can sniff at each other through the boards?


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Apr 11, 2012)

She looks like she is fitting in well!


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## Farmerboy (Apr 15, 2012)

We named her *Bella!*



> *redtailgal*
> Great!  She looks good.
> 
> Looks to me like she has a while before she calves, hubby and I both agree at least a month.  You may or may not see more udder forming.  You'll know shes close when the head of her tail is very prominent.  Her girl parts will get VERY soft and squishy looking (even jiggling when she walks). The girls parts may even sag open a little shortly before she delivers.  She may get a little "snarky" a week or so before she births, so watch for attitude changes.  Be patient, but dont take any crap off her either.
> ...


Thanks, that is what I thought. I work at a dairy farm, and I have seen Holstein heifers freshening before calving. But I am sure that Bella's udder will never be as big as a Holstein's! I was looking online and the way Bella's udder looks, it looks like the Angus type. So would her udder and milk production be like the Angus'? Her father is an Angus, and I read somewhere that the cow get her udder and milk production from her father's mother. Is that true?



> *Cricket*
> She is a cutie!  She looks so mellow for having just made a big move.  She also looks in better condition than she did in your first photo.  It'll be good for her to have a little time to settle in before calving.  Are the calves close enough that they can sniff at each other through the boards?


Boy, she was very antsy in that trailer! While they were backing the trailer to the cow shed, I could see the trailer rocking hard. As soon the owner opened the top trailer doors, she half jumped over the bottom doors. She was stuck with her front legs over the doors, and we were trying to push her back in, so we can open the bottom doors. But, we ended up letting her finish the jump, and she walked right into the shed. But a few hours later, I had noticed a gash between her udder and right back leg. She must have scratched it while jumping over the trailer door. Last I checked on that wound, it had scabbed over, and it looks ok.
Once in the shed, boy, she wanted out, and I had nailed 2 of the 2 by 10 boards over the doorway of the shed, so she can't jump out. She kept pacing back and forth, but she had calmed down alot now. She does not pace anymore. And waits for us to bring her grass and other tasty greens. Tomorrow morning, I will be letting her out of the shed! The calves are in the other pasture, and they cannot access the cow shed and the pen.



> *Stubbornhillfarm*
> She looks like she is fitting in well!


She is now! 

And we got an other addition to the farm yesterday! 

We got some hogs! American Guinea Hogs! We got 2 sows, a gilt, a boar, and 2 non-breeder quality gilts. The gilt gave birth to 6 piglets the day before we brought them, and the two sows are expecting soon! The 2 non-breeder quality gilts will be pork in the fall.





They declared war on the nice grass right away, and ate them all before the sun went down. This morning, the pen was one muddy, turned up ground.


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## redtailgal (Apr 15, 2012)

Congrats on the pigs, they are nice. and the babies are adorable!

Be careful with around Bella for a few days, it'll take her some time to not be so antsy.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Apr 16, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> We named her *Bella!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome!  Congrats on the pigs.  We have 4 piglets coming next week from Penn.  Do you have electric around the bottom of the hog panels or just the panels?


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## Cow Owner Wannabe (Apr 24, 2012)

Those are the some cute hogs!!


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## Farmerboy (Apr 25, 2012)

I had let Bella out of her shed last week Tuesday, and let her out in the main pasture yesterday. She is very happy to be out!! The steers are in the other pasture.

Last week-













Yesterday-

I was weed wracking the weeds under the fence, and Bella saw what I was doing, and came running to find out what I was doing.






One more week before she can go in the pasture where the steers are!!  They have been mooing at each other, and I would find them eating grass together along side the fence.


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## Four Winds Ranch (Apr 25, 2012)

She looks like she is going to be an awesome cow!!! I think you will be very happy with her!


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## redtailgal (Apr 25, 2012)

She looks great!


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## kelsey2017 (Apr 26, 2012)

Isn't this fun!?  Farmerboy, we're kinda like heifer twins!  Is this your first time having a milk cow?  If it is, although your girl has more white, we are both waiting for calves and have cute dairy crosses for our little farms!   I really love your girls star on her fore head, so cute.  Do you have _any_ idea of her due date?  I probably have pics of Kjersten's udder ever other week, we could compare! lol! (I've been a little excited)  Very sweet girl you have there, good luck!


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## Farmerboy (Apr 26, 2012)

Yes, its fun, but I have no idea when is the due date, and the former owners did not know the date too for they had brought her from someone else already bred, and is not sure what bull had bred her. Its either a lowline Angus, or a standard Angus.  So, its a wait and see game. Bella is our very first cow, so we are quite new in this. I will take a few picture of her udder today.
I found your thread Kelsey, and I am excited for you! Your heifer looks like that she is closer to deliver than Bella. I have subscribed to your thread. 

Question- If she have a heifer, the heifer will be kept for another family cow, but if the father is a Lowline, would she be too small to be bred to a Guernsey Bull? My dad wants Bella bred to the Guernsey bull when she is ready to have another calf.


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## Farmerboy (Apr 27, 2012)

Here are the pictures of her udder.







Her ''girly parts'' 





Left side





Back side, she does have 2 extra teats, and I know that they will never function.





Right side, See that small round mark in the middle of her udder? That is a scar from jumping out of the trailer when she got here.





Top side, showing her round sides





Left side, showing big belly.





Front- Asking me if I was done taking pictures of her privy.


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## redtailgal (Apr 27, 2012)

You've got a while before she calves.

Her face tickles me in that last pic.............She is like "honestly.  how UNDIGNIFIED!"  lol


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## windyCharolais (Apr 27, 2012)

It looks like she is very tired of her photo shoot...


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## Farmerboy (May 1, 2012)

Bella liked going to the woods today. The 5 months old steers had showed her where to go.


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## redtailgal (May 2, 2012)

Well now, you've got a nice lookin' little herd started!

Congratulations!


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## Waterfall (May 2, 2012)

Thats a nice group of cattle you got going.


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## kelsey2017 (May 2, 2012)

I love it!  They look like some happy campers.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 2, 2012)

She is very pretty.  I love that picture of her standing in the woods.  

So are your steers for pets or for the freezer?


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## Stubbornhillfarm (May 2, 2012)

What a blessing to have a stream running through your property for them!  They look great.


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## Farmerboy (May 2, 2012)

ThreeBoysChicks said:
			
		

> She is very pretty.  I love that picture of her standing in the woods.
> 
> So are your steers for pets or for the freezer?


One steer is for the freezer, and the other will be sold to help cover the cost of raising them.

Here is the creek, the ''cow's waterhole''


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 2, 2012)

I would really love to have a creek, a natural water whole.  

My aunt growing up had a spring house.  And the water from the spring ran out and into a small tub and from there it started a small creek that flowed into a larger creek.  The animals had a fresh water supply 24 X 7, 365 days a year, because the water coming out of the spring was always a constant temperature.  Love it.


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## Waterfall (May 2, 2012)

Creeks are things to be cherished on any farm.


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## Bossroo (May 3, 2012)

Waterfall said:
			
		

> Creeks are things to be cherished on any farm.


There is a seasonal 20 foot wide creek running through our property.  Cherished, yes...   untill  there just happens to be a downpour and the creek floods onto a pasture  about a mile upstream that was just heavily fertilized and the drained water then runs down that creek onto your land like it happened to me 7 years ago.  I lost 5 mares in ONE day.


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## aggieterpkatie (May 3, 2012)

Using a stream isn't a good way to water your animals.  YOu don't know what's going on upstream, and you sure don't want your animals polluting the stream for those people downstream.  Plus, they walk all around the edges which speeds up erosion (sediment is a major problem).  The environmentally friendly thing would be to fence them away from the stream (with a vegetated buffer in between them and the stream) so the water stays clean for everyone.    There is cost-share assistance available through NRCS and some states even have cost-share programs for Best Management Practices (BMPs) like streamside fencing.  Your local Soil Conservation Distric should be able to assist you.


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## Farmerboy (May 3, 2012)

Our creek comes from a swamp in the next door neighbor's wild land,  and it goes to another swamp-like pond in the cattle pasture a quarter of a mile behind us, then it goes to a river a few miles away.


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## greybeard (May 3, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> Our creek comes from a swamp in the next door neighbor's wild land,  and it goes to another swamp-like pond in the cattle pasture a quarter of a mile behind us, then it goes to a river a few miles away.


Yeah, mine kinda does that--runs into a river about 2000 ft from my house. That's well and good, and everyone likes the pond I have--till the river gets up--like it did in March this year. Everyone wants a stream or creek, but be careful what ya wish for.....








This water came down river 2 days after it stopped raining here, and rose under clear skies and full sun--in less than 2 hrs. Since I can't see the river from my house, I didn't even know it was on a rise till I drove out to the highway to go to the store, and saw the water on both sides of the road. I zipped back to the house, ran in the front door, and out the back and realized I had very little time to get 22 cows and calves to high ground, and I had to wade water even then, but I got em. Luckily, it crested right before dark the same day, but I suspect all my catfish went out with the ebbing water.





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## Farmerboy (Jun 1, 2012)

*Bella had a calf yesterday!!! WOOT!!!* 

It was sorta unexpected. I knew that she was getting very close, and got the shed all cleaned out for the calf's arrival and was going to pick up 4 bales of straw from a farmer at 7 pm. I had got started scraping the bedding out of the Chicken Mansion  at 3 pm, but went in the house to get something when my youngest sister ran in the house yelling that Bella had a calf! I grabbed my shoes and ran out of the door saying ''Where is she?!'' My sister said in the far corner of the 6 acre pasture right next to the woods!  

*Warning- picture and cuteness overload!* 

Days before birthing-










Yesterday-

















See how close they are to the woods? 










The calf trying to nurse.




Got it! YUM!!




The boys checking the calf out.







The weather condition, it rained hard later, and I was wet trying to get the calf to the shed, and it took us an hour to get Bella in the shed.





The calf is a girl!! We named her Maybelle as she was born in the last day of May and the mother's name is Bella. 

Bella is very protective of the calf, she had charged at some of my siblings and me! When she had charged at me for the 3rd time, I gave her a firm smack on her face, now she does not go after me now but at my other siblings. I milked her for the first time this morning!! Got 3 1/2 pounds of very yellow milk. Gave the milk to the dog and the pigs, they went crazy for it. I am sure that Maybelle had a few pounds of milk for breakfast, so I am not sure how much she is producing, but will know in a few days when I keep the calf locked up at night, so I can milk Bella. But will let the calf nurse the rest of the day.


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## redtailgal (Jun 1, 2012)

well, you have a fine looking calf!  COngratulations!

And Bella looks wonderful!

I'm very happy for you!


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Jun 1, 2012)

Awwww.....Congratulations!  What a great surprise.  All of your herd looks wonderful.  Such a cute little Maybelle.


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## Four Winds Ranch (Jun 1, 2012)

Bella looks awesome, and you should be very happy with her!  Good job picking a good cow!  
That little calf is sooooo cute!
Congrats!


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## Cricket (Jun 1, 2012)

That is Wonderful!  Everyone looks so sleek and shiny and healthy!  You are doing a great job!


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## WildRoseBeef (Jun 1, 2012)

Congrats on the new addition!!


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## greenbean (Jun 2, 2012)

Congrats!!  They are both very lovely!


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Jun 2, 2012)

Great News!  Glad it all went well!


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## MrsKK (Jun 2, 2012)

Congratulations!  Everyone looks very healthy and happy.  The colostrum should clear out in about 4-5 days, then you'll have lots of good milk to drink.

Uneventful births are the best


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## Trigoat&pbrlover (Jun 4, 2012)

CUTE!!!!!

(I posted on byc too, but still she is so cute  )


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## Symphony (Jun 19, 2012)

How's the Cow and Pigs doing?


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## Farmerboy (Jul 6, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> How's the Cow and Pigs doing?


Great, but HOT!!!

The hogs


Cooling off.







Eating fresh unsellable greens. Got the greens from where I work, for free! Daily! 






Anybody want this cutie?  I have 13 piglets total. 7 males, 6 females. They are old enough to be rehome now. 






Drum roll!

Maybelle!!

She is 5 weeks old now. She has changed color! 




When she was a week old.




I think that she will be reddish color cow when she grows up, what do you all think?

I have been letting Maybelle stay with Bella 24/7, for Bella is producing more milk than what the calf can use.

I have been getting about a gallon or so of milk from Bella at each milking. But lately I am only getting about half a gallon or less. I think that its because it has been so hot, or Maybelle is being very greedy. :/


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## Symphony (Jul 6, 2012)

They look wonderful and happy.  Grocery stores and fruit stands are wonderful sources of free food.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 6, 2012)

Maybelle...she an Angus cross?  Remind me because I can't remember since it's been a while since this post was brought up again.  

I don't think she'll be a reddish colour, I think she'll get redder and less black as she gets older, to the point where she's actually RED.

Animals look good btw.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 6, 2012)

*Symphony*- I work at a farm that does strawberries, raspberries, and it have a greenhouse full of greens, etc. So, I bring home stuff that are no good to sell, or too old, over ripe. The hogs go crazy for them. 



*WildRoseBeef*- Maybelle's father is Angus, her mother is Angus/Guernsey. Maybe her father is a red Angus, or carries a red gene? Or the Guernsey side is bringing out the color? Or something else???


I want to A.I Bella with a Guernsey semen, so we can have another heifer that is more Guernsey than Angus. Where can I find a semen that is from a bull that is from good hand milking line, and is A2 quality? Thanks for any help!

Also, yesterday I saw a long mucus looking thing coming out of Bella's um well her bottom. Is that a sign of her being in heat? I have been trying to watch her being in heat, so I can time for her next heat to breed her, since we do not have a bull. I would like to have Bella calve in March or April of next year. Michigan State University can send someone out to show me how to A.I Bella for free!


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

The mucus is part of it, yes, but you may be seeing a bit more stranger, more "excited" activity from her, she normally would be acting either like a you-know-what or be actively look like she wants something either from you or from something across the fence that she can't get.  The books say that a cow or heifer in heat would also be vocal, but I've seen dairy heifers not be that vocal and still be in heat...one was a bit more quieter and reserved than another, being the Jersey heifer stirring the herd up over the Holstein-cross heifer was doing. So really, how heifers come in heat varies quite a bit, depending on personality and such. 

As for Maybelle...who knows, right? Whatever the genetics, she's certainly going to grow up to be a handsome girl.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 7, 2012)

So, the mucus only shows when a cow is in heat? In that case I better put the date on the calender, and count 21 days for the next heat, right? It was 2 days ago, so it will be in 19 days before her next cycle. Better find the stuff to get her bred! 

We want an another heifer, so should I try to get sexed semen? Or it is too expensive? What is the average cost? Or just get regular stuff, and hope that it produces a heifer.  A pretty brown and white one. Yep, that is my order.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 7, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> *Symphony*- I work at a farm that does strawberries, raspberries, and it have a greenhouse full of greens, etc. So, I bring home stuff that are no good to sell, or too old, over ripe. The hogs go crazy for them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Guernsey color falls into the wild type classification.  The wildtype is what more than likely is being expressed in your calf-- it's called Black/ Red-- and it also occurs in the Holstein breed, Chi, and many others.  What happens is the cattle will be Red in the summer, and Black in the winter-- matter of fact, we have certain lines of HOL which will have a complete change of color.  THe Wildtype gene is dominate.  

This is not to be confused with the TINGE that is in Angus cattle that happens when black Angus get turned into brown angus.


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## Symphony (Jul 7, 2012)

Actually Black and Red Angus are the exact same family or breed its just the color difference.  Before there was a separate herd books both Red and Black Angus where in the same breed so Red is possible though rare from a Black Angus.

I think the calve will have a beautiful dark red color to her when she grows up.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 7, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> Actually Black and Red Angus are the exact same family or breed its just the color difference.  Before there was a separate herd books both Red and Black Angus where in the same breed so Red is possible though rare from a Black Angus.
> 
> I think the calve will have a beautiful dark red color to her when she grows up.


Kinda right, but wrong... Originally the reds were sports coming from the blacks- back in the beginning of reds- a couple of outfits-- mainly Beckton Ranch-- went around buying up all the pop-up Red Angus-- and started their own deal from there.  

The blacks and reds now have a separate herd book-- and the black's discriminant hugely against the reds-- at least in the US. Canada, I believe still keeps them in the same herd book.  The main difference now- is the black herdbook is closed, and will remain so-- where as the Red herd book is open and including an appendix or upgrading program-- so theoretically the red angus of today, might not be purebred.  

See how this calf has black ears, black around her muzzle, and a black stripe down the back--- that's wildtype color pattern expressing it'self in textbook fashion.  

The likelihood that this calf has an Angus parent with the red gene is possible-- but I highly doubt that's the case-- 

to the OP-- if you're wanting a heifer calf-- then sexed semen might be the way to go-- but it will cost you roughly twice the price of conventional-- and it won't have as good of a fertility rate- b/c the semen will have less vigor and motility.  The concentration will be about the same though- as you'll buy sexed semen in 2.1 mil straws, or 5 mil straws for flushing.  

if you want a brown and white, and have specific goals-- I'd suggest finding what you want and buying it-- you'll be better off than trying to make it yourself.  When you are dealing with black- you'll have a tough time getting anything other than black from them, and black in the solid state.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

shawnfisher said:
			
		

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Yeah, but this is a young calf were talking about here, not an adult cow.  I've seen calves change to a completely different colour from what they were born with, and not like what you're describing.  For instance, the Holstein-Jersey cross bull calves that were brought here when they were only a few days old were brown.  As they got older they turned black.  As with this calf, as she's getting older she's going the opposite, going more red (not brown, which is typical of a wild-type allele in genetics) than black to the point where she'll be more red than black or probably all red as she grows older, regardless of the change in seasons.  Your point about the wild-type allele is believable, not arguing that, it's just that you seem to be referring to the older or adult cattle, not young calves as they grow and get closer to maturity. 

But, to see if your point is indeed viable and applicable to Maybelle, maybe Farmerboy should post a picture of her come fall/winter to see if she does turns back to black, or if she gets more red.   We can't really tell by discussing this on here; we can talk about it til we're blue in the face, but the ultimate deciding factor is Time and Wait and See. Besides, it's a good way to see how she's progressed in a few months time anyway! 

And of course the reddish/brown tinge in black angus cattle in the summer may be more due to a copper deficiency than an actual change in colouration.  I've seen it before in the Angus steer calves we had.  We put a trace mineral block out for them (I know it's just trace...) and the amount of reddish tinge in those calves seemed to decrease significantly from those in past years when we only fed those blue blocks to them. A lot of the calves slicked out nice and black, from what I can remember.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 7, 2012)

Wow, all this talk of coloring and genetics is sure is interesting.  I learned a lot! Thanks! 

*shawnfisher*- I don't mind another cross. Since I have a mostly Angus heifer, I want to see what a mostly Guernsey would be like, and how her production would be like. Eventually, ''_maybe in the far future_'' I would like to have a small herd of pure Guernsey. We will see.

*WildRoseBeef*- I will take pictures of her once a month to see how she changes. It will be interesting. 

I have two different mineral block for them, and Bella and the two holstein steers are still black, with light sun browned areas. Maybelle is the only one that is changing color body wise.


Where is the best place to get Guernsey semen from? How long do I have wait to order it before Bella goes back to heat?


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## shawnfisher (Jul 7, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> Wow, all this talk of coloring and genetics is sure is interesting.  I learned a lot! Thanks!
> 
> *shawnfisher*- I don't mind another cross. Since I have a mostly Angus heifer, I want to see what a mostly Guernsey would be like, and how her production would be like. Eventually, ''_maybe in the far future_'' I would like to have a small herd of pure Guernsey. We will see.
> 
> ...


ABS or Select Sires will be your best option for buying Guernsey semen-- although wont' do you any good to buy if if you don't have tank, or can't do the AI work yourself.  

I have a very good PDF- that really explains the wildtype color pattern in great depth, but from my experience even young calves will change body colors.  

Here is a very good discussion on this very topic that I was very involved with-- I am 'outspoken' on there. http://www.steerplanet.com/bb/index.php?topic=36943.0

The google doc, I have it saved somewhere, and for anyone interested, I can email it to.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

I'd love to see it, Shawn. 

FB, you should check out the page I made on coat colour genetics in cattle, might be of some interest to you: http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=236-colour-genetics


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## shawnfisher (Jul 7, 2012)

too bad I can't upload a pdf to here, nor do I know of an easy way to upload something online.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

shawnfisher said:
			
		

> too bad I can't upload a pdf to here, nor do I know of an easy way to upload something online.


Couldn't you copy and paste the content onto one of a "my page" of yours?  I dunno if that will help, but it may...


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Jul 7, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

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Is it POSSIBLE to copy and paste a PDF??????


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

CochinBrahmaLover=) said:
			
		

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I've done it before, but it does get quite a bit tedious when things don't line up the way they should.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Jul 7, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

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Oh ya... your the weird awesome crazy lady who can even tho no one else can


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

CochinBrahmaLover=) said:
			
		

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## Farmerboy (Jul 7, 2012)

What is PDF?


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> What is PDF?


PDF I think means "portable-document format" or something like that...it's an electronic form of document that can't be edited, and can be moved around through email and that. It's predominantly through Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Maybe I'll send along a wikipedia article to try to explain it for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Jul 7, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> What is PDF?


Something you cant copy and paste (EXCEPT WRB, LOL)

Umm, i dunno what it stands for, but pretty much you just cant copy and paste it (tho Beef has made that not true, LOL)


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Jul 7, 2012)

Heres a PDF

http://jas.fass.org/content/69/9/3610.full.pdf


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## Farmerboy (Jul 7, 2012)

Ah, I see. Thanks. 

I realized that the camera setting was set at vivid when I took the picture of Maybelle. So, that may not be accurate color of her.  She is not that bright red, more of chocolate color. I will take another picture of her tomorrow with the standard setting. She does not stand still when I take pictures of her.  So sorry, should have known that sooner.  To make myself feel better, she is really NOT black anymore.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 7, 2012)

my pdf is 22 pages long...

the original was a google doc-- that for some reason was password protected... once I finally got ahold of it-- it again was protected, and I could do nothing but print it off-- of which I then ram in through our super scanner-- and turned it into a pdf.  

for some reason, someone wanted to keep it to their self.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Jul 7, 2012)

that could explain her colr- from what Ive seen guernseys are a light brown so th black could make her seem chocolaty. I dunno, LOL!


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## shawnfisher (Jul 8, 2012)

CochinBrahmaLover=) said:
			
		

> that could explain her colr- from what Ive seen guernseys are a light brown so th black could make her seem chocolaty. I dunno, LOL!


black cannot, and will not ever be co-dominate-- unless it is bred to charlois white (even though this white really doesn't exist-- as Charlois are actually recessive RED with the dilutor gene being expressed) (result in smoke) or shorthorn white which results in the roaning effect.  

In every other case- it, BLACK, will be dominate.  

The brown of Guernsey isn't really brown- it's an expression of the wildtype color pattern with the gene for spotting-- which is the same as the gene in Sim, Holsteins, and many other spotted breeds.


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## Symphony (Jul 8, 2012)

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Don't know where your getting your information but mine came from the UK Angus society and the original families that started the breed.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 8, 2012)

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so you know the original families Huh?   I'm getting my information from the truth, and figured that I'd hit up the Red Angus ass'n to back it up.

http://redangus.org/assets/media/Documents/Association/Red_Angus_History_Brochure.pdf


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## Symphony (Jul 8, 2012)

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Lol, no I don't know the original families.  But I did a novel thing and researched. That pdf is an interesting version.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 8, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

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so are you calling the red angus ass'n a liar?


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## Symphony (Jul 8, 2012)

This has gone way off subject.

Farmerboy I like your Pigs and Cows and wish you great luck with them.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok, gotta stop this before it gets out of hand, and start a new topic, well sorta. LOL


I took bunch of new pictures of Maybelle and Bella using the standard and vivid pictures.


Standard-










Vivid-







Mm, there is a bit of differences of color in both pictures.


Now standard pictures of Maybelle-




























*Warning!* Stinky picture!



This is Maybelle's feces and it does not look right to me. Is it worms?


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## redtailgal (Jul 8, 2012)

Your calf looks lovely!

What do you think is wrong with the poop?


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## Farmerboy (Jul 8, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Your calf looks lovely!
> 
> What do you think is wrong with the poop?


It looks like deer pellets, not like a normal cow pie. If it looks ok, then I won't worry.


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## redtailgal (Jul 8, 2012)

I wouldnt worry about it.


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## Symphony (Jul 9, 2012)

Poop looks good to me.

Your right about the Vivid difference.  That little calf will be a lovely dark brown color.  She is really coming along nicely with that great mom and owner to take care of her.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks! 

I will take pictures of her once a month to record her color changes. 

I found this on Craigslist. Is it practical for us to get one for one cow? We plan to have about 3 cows total in the next couple years. Bella, Maybelle, and Bella's next heifer calf.

http://centralmich.craigslist.org/grd/3119892923.html


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## shawnfisher (Jul 9, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> 
> I will take pictures of her once a month to record her color changes.
> 
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for that money, it had better be half full of semen...

I've bought two used tanks in the last couple of years, and not paid that for either of them.  My last tank was 5 years old, and priced to me for half what the guy paid for it-- after he found the receipts.  I ended up paying $217 for it, but it also included several straws of semen of some really good bulls.  Most of the Angus bull, retail were priced at 25-35-75- and 100 a straw.  Granted, i had no use for that semen, and couldn't sell it for that-- but I did end up breeding some cows and heifers down the road for a friend= and got it out of the semen.  Almost paid for my tank really...

The thing about tanks, you never know when they'll fail-- and you'll never know until it happens. Gamble we all take.  You'll have to pay to get them filled, atleast 4 times a year, and that costs will be something around $150 a year.  Right now, my tank is at the neighbors, and we get a 2 tank discount- and I pay just over 100 a year to have my half of the bill filled.  

For 3 cows, I'm betting you won't need a semen tank.  The thing about not having any cows- is you'll buy all kinds of semen, and eventually you'll not have a use for it.  That stuff adds up after awhile. If you have interest in breeding AI- I suggest find a close friend and buy the semen when you're ready for it, and keep it in their tank-- if they'll agree to it...


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 9, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

>


She's _definitely_ a wild-type colouration, man was I wrong !! Pictures certainly can throw you for a loop at times with the wrong color balance, angle, and other distortions!!


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## greybeard (Jul 9, 2012)

The feces looks ok--I've seen that many times in a young calf. At that stage, it's utilizing most all of what it's taking in, so it won't have a "normal cowpie".   I'll take that over runs any day. 
(possibly a "little" dehydrated but  again, not at all unusual to see poop like that)


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## shawnfisher (Jul 9, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

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who da man... chalk another one up for him- again...


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## Symphony (Jul 9, 2012)

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????


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## Farmerboy (Jul 9, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> She's _definitely_ a wild-type colouration, man was I wrong !! Pictures certainly can throw you for a loop at times with the wrong color balance, angle, and other distortions!!


So, what color will she be fully grown? Brown? Black? Red?


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## Farmerboy (Jul 9, 2012)

shawnfisher said:
			
		

> for that money, it had better be half full of semen...
> 
> I've bought two used tanks in the last couple of years, and not paid that for either of them.  My last tank was 5 years old, and priced to me for half what the guy paid for it-- after he found the receipts.  I ended up paying $217 for it, but it also included several straws of semen of some really good bulls.  Most of the Angus bull, retail were priced at 25-35-75- and 100 a straw.  Granted, i had no use for that semen, and couldn't sell it for that-- but I did end up breeding some cows and heifers down the road for a friend= and got it out of the semen.  Almost paid for my tank really...
> 
> ...


Thank you. My boss do have a semen tank, but the farm is 13 miles from my place, and he said that it will be no good by the time he gets  to my place to breed Bella. But he said that there are people that go around and AI farmer's herds for a fee of $50.00 to $75.00. Might have to go that route, but how to get the semen and put in their tanks, and find those people...


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## shawnfisher (Jul 9, 2012)

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no reason your boss can't load his tank up and take it to your house to do the AI work... or no reason you cannot load your heifer up and take her to his house to get bred.

I hauled my tank 40 miles the other day to breed 30 heifers for $15. per head, plus semen costs, which I had been storing in my tank.  Matter of fact, in April I made a trip which ended up being about 30 miles short of 1000 round trip-- to pick semen up when I was out bull looking.  

When your heifer is full grown, i would expect her to be the same color she is now-- maybe slightly redder in the summertime, and blacker in the winter time.  She will change colors though-- but her black ears, muzzle, and the line down her back-- will always remain black...


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 9, 2012)

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Easy now. I wasn't giving you any confirmation that you were right or wrong, just said I made a mistake due to the way the picture was taken.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 10, 2012)

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Well, I have asked my boss about that, and he seems not willing to help me, and we do not have a trailer to haul the cows around. Besides I am quitting that job for several reasons, so it would be pointless to ask him for help on anything. 
I had called the local animal clinic to see if they know anyone who does AI on cows, and they gave me numbers for two guys, called both of them and left a message. Hope they call me back soon.

So, the base color of Maybelle is dark brown? But will have the black markings? That will be really pretty!


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## redtailgal (Jul 10, 2012)

Farmerboy.......

The vet that I work with keeps his own tank and AI system for use with his clients.  

If a client wants to AI, he/she orders the straws and has them shipped to the clinic.  Then Doc will bring the tank and the straw out to the farm to do the AI procedure.  We also have a semen collection service, so if the bull/stallion that you want is within distance, the semen can be collected and tested without the need for shipping.

Call around to the local livestock vets, there may be one with a similar service.  If that doesnt work, trying running an ad in the paper, stating that you need to AI a cow, and need someone familiar with the procedure that has some equipment.


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## Farmerboy (Jul 10, 2012)

RTG- Thanks for the advice. I can try the ad if I can't find any vets to help me.


While I am looking for someone to help me AI Bella, I am looking on Select Sires for good Guernsey bull's stuff. Here is the link for all the Guernsey bulls available- http://bullpages.selectsires.com/bu...DtrRel=3&outputmode=1&caption=Guernsey Lineup
Now, I need to pick out the best bull, and to my limit experiences in dairy cattle, I have narrowed down to these 3 bulls. Which is better?

What I am looking for is a bull that is A2A2, good hand milking lines.

http://bullpages.selectsires.com/pages/webpagegen.dll?cmd=showPage&AniID=7GU428&lang=Eng

http://bullpages.selectsires.com/pages/webpagegen.dll?cmd=showPage&AniID=7GU394&lang=Eng

http://bullpages.selectsires.com/pages/webpagegen.dll?cmd=showPage&AniID=7GU402&lang=Eng

And how to find the prices? I don't want to find the one that I really like, but is out of my budget.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 10, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

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I'm not exactly sure what the base color of your cow is-- but brown is not a color. I would say her base color is black with the wildtype being dominate and showing through, even though the wildtype color is more of a brownish in most cases.


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## Symphony (Jul 10, 2012)

is pink a color?


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 10, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> is pink a color?


Or even green, or grey or black?  Or what about white?


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## Royd Wood (Jul 10, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> Thank you. My boss do have a semen tank, but the farm is 13 miles from my place, and he said that it will be no good by the time he gets  to my place to breed Bella. But he said that there are people that go around and AI farmer's herds for a fee of $50.00 to $75.00. Might have to go that route, but how to get the semen and put in their tanks, and find those people...


Hey farmerboy
13 miles is nothing - True story ok ok its horse semen but a friend of ours left just the straw in the car for 2 days, used it and got twin foals


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## shawnfisher (Jul 10, 2012)

Royd Wood said:
			
		

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twins are the best


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## ILuvSheep (Jul 10, 2012)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

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Or red or molve or maroon or blue or (dare i say) TEAL???

Lol


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## Royd Wood (Jul 11, 2012)

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 Shawnacres - still bugs you eh - how come you changed your name. Twins are not always the best in the cattle world as you well know 
Farmerboy - how old is bella now


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## Farmerboy (Jul 11, 2012)

ILuvSheep said:
			
		

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How 'bout John Deere Green??? Aka Good o'l green??? LOL


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## Farmerboy (Jul 11, 2012)

Royd Wood said:
			
		

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I was just repeating what the man told me. That is nice to know, and that is cool about the twins!


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## Farmerboy (Jul 11, 2012)

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She is 2 years old. I was told that she was born in March.


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## Royd Wood (Jul 11, 2012)

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ok I understand the urgency to get her served. Theres so many posts on here - can you recap a little - like any farms localish you could take her to. At this stage I would go door knocking anywhere that has cattle and someone with a trailer as a May calf would be good. If someone in your situation came here then I would just need to come over and look at your set up and cow and if all was good I would help. I like to encourage small scale farming (which is us too)and am always willing to help. We got help off quite a few around here  Good luck


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 11, 2012)

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I've heard tell that twins are even worse in horses.  Survival rate for twin foals is much slimmer than for twin calves.  And yes, many producers do hate having twins born on their place.  Don't know why mr.shawnkfacresfeedgrass likes them so much. :/


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## angus4ever (Jul 11, 2012)

twins are pretty cool but they do come with there problems.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 11, 2012)

Twins in beef cattle is usually no big deal, because you still get money sending heifers to the butcher.


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## ILuvSheep (Jul 11, 2012)

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LOL.


Why are twins bad in horses/cows? Seems like you'd want them... :/


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## SheepGirl (Jul 11, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Twins in beef cattle is usually no big deal, because you still get money sending heifers to the butcher.


X2. My friend has red angus and her cow, Fawn, throws boy/girl twins every year. Usually one or both don't survive, but this year they both did and they're feeding them both out for butcher


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## Symphony (Jul 11, 2012)

Really that's odd that they don't both survive.  My neighbor has a pair almost every year and though they take longer at first to grow, they survive.


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## SheepGirl (Jul 11, 2012)

Normally Fawn's calves are lost to accidents (it's always Fawn )...like drowning in the stream, breaking a leg in a groundhog hole, etc. All the other cow's calves survive...it's just Fawn. But my friend thinks this is Fawn's last year...she's like 13 or something now. But her dad wants to send her to auction but she's my friend's favorite cow so she just wants to shoot her and bury her (she doesn't even want to eat her and I just tell her what a waste of 500+ lbs of hamburger!).


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## Cricket (Jul 11, 2012)

In dairy cows, if you have twins and one is a heifer and one is a bull, the heifer is apt to be infertile (free martin).  So we don't get to keep either calf in that situation.  But if they're both heifers, we raise them.  Most of the ones I've happened to see seem to be fraternal twins.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 11, 2012)

Cricket said:
			
		

> In dairy cows, if you have twins and one is a heifer and one is a bull, the heifer is apt to be infertile (free martin).  So we don't get to keep either calf in that situation.  But if they're both heifers, we raise them.  Most of the ones I've happened to see seem to be fraternal twins.


92% of the time when CATTLE have a mixed set- the heifer is a freemartin...


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 12, 2012)

Even if you're raising dairy cattle, you still get to sell the heifer, so it's better than getting just a bull calf.  You can sell the heifer for the same price as a bull calf, so you get twice the money you would've gotten for a single bull calf.  

And twins in horses are a bad thing, hardly EVER survive, and trying to abort one fetus is sometimes tricky and will kill the second one also.


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## Symphony (Jul 12, 2012)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Even if you're raising dairy cattle, you still get to sell the heifer, so it's better than getting just a bull calf.  You can sell the heifer for the same price as a bull calf, so you get twice the money you would've gotten for a single bull calf.
> 
> And twins in horses are a bad thing, hardly EVER survive, and trying to abort one fetus is sometimes tricky and will kill the second one also.


Yes, twins in horses are not good.  Had it happen once and neither survived.  I personally only know of one instance that both twins survived but they both needed lots of assistance in the beginnging months and one ended up being bottle raised.  They were both colts and gelded at weaning.  One was always bigger and stronger than the other that was bottle fed.  The stronger one ended up being sold as a cutting horse and sent out west and the bottle fed one was a pleasure horse briefly until dying of a respiratory illness.


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## redtailgal (Jul 12, 2012)

A horses uterus is only designed to hold one foal, so twin foals are often small and pretty underdeveloped and most will die within a few days.  IN fact, most twin pregnancies end in reabsorbtion or miscarriage at around five months.  A mare who is carrying twins must be monitored closely, rested, and fed CAREFULLY so that the foals do not grow too large in utero.
IF the babies are born healthy, they can survive, but it is rare and a lot of work on a person, for one must be pulled and bottle raised, or both left on the mother and supplemented, else they will both starve to death.  This is provided the mother survives the delivery, of course.  I've seen it a few times, twins born........most die.  Twice, I decided to euth the smaller less developed twin rather than spend days fighting a losing battle.  In one set, both babies survived, and made great ranch horses later, but the mare and I were both exhausted.

Triplets.....about 5 horses worldwide have gone to delivery with triplets and in every case the mare and all the foals died.

Twin calves.......they are considered food as soon as they hit the ground here.


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## Symphony (Jul 12, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> A horses uterus is only designed to hold one foal, so twin foals are often small and pretty underdeveloped and most will die within a few days.  IN fact, most twin pregnancies end in reabsorbtion or miscarriage at around five months.  A mare who is carrying twins must be monitored closely, rested, and fed CAREFULLY so that the foals do not grow too large in utero.
> IF the babies are born healthy, they can survive, but it is rare and a lot of work on a person, for one must be pulled and bottle raised, or both left on the mother and supplemented, else they will both starve to death.  This is provided the mother survives the delivery, of course.  I've seen it a few times, twins born........most die.  Twice, I decided to euth the smaller less developed twin rather than spend days fighting a losing battle.  In one set, both babies survived, and made great ranch horses later, but the mare and I were both exhausted.
> 
> Triplets.....about 5 horses worldwide have gone to delivery with triplets and in every case the mare and all the foals died.
> ...


Wait one of my cows had twins and they are so cute.  One is a bull calf and the other a heifer.  I want to keep the Heifer.


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## Bossroo (Jul 12, 2012)

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I am sure that you are aware that a twin heifer to a bull calf is a free Marten... she will never be capable to  produce a calf !!!


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## Symphony (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm hoping that she will be fertile, even though its a very slim chance.  I'm having my vet come out tomorrow to check the calves anyway.


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## Royd Wood (Jul 12, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> I'm hoping that she will be fertile, even though its a very slim chance.  I'm having my vet come out tomorrow to check the calves anyway.


What will he be checking for ???????????
If the calves are healthy then save a vet bill and why pay him to tell you what Bossroo has told you for free


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## Symphony (Jul 12, 2012)

Hmm, well I haven't had them checked out yet.  I want to make sure they are all healthy.  I know when my Horses are healthy but I don't know Cattle as well.


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## redtailgal (Jul 12, 2012)

A vet will not be able to tell you if she is fertile or not.  You'll have at least a two year wait on that.

I've NEVER seen a free martin heifer conceive.  Never.  Do what you need to do, but that's a lot of expense for a barren cow.

And, healthy calves are calves that pee, poop, and nurse.  If you can tell if a foal is healthy, trust your judgment on the calves.


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## Cricket (Jul 12, 2012)

Around MY AREA, calves 100lbs or better you make out well on, but smaller Jersey calves cost almost as much to ship as you get $ for.  Nobody want to buy a free martin heifer and it isn't worth it to raise them for beef when you can raise a Jersey steer.


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## Symphony (Jul 12, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> A vet will not be able to tell you if she is fertile or not.  You'll have at least a two year wait on that.
> 
> I've NEVER seen a free martin heifer conceive.  Never.  Do what you need to do, but that's a lot of expense for a barren cow.
> 
> And, healthy calves are calves that pee, poop, and nurse.  If you can tell if a foal is healthy, trust your judgment on the calves.


 Ok, I won't waste the money.  As for the rest of the calves, none of you do a herd check on them before weaning time or after.  My few family members with farming back rounds say different times for weaning.  Most of them did mostly Crop farming and raised a few livestock on the side.


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## Royd Wood (Jul 12, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we are drifting from the op questions - Symphony how about starting a new post on weaning as I'm sure theres plenty of different advice


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 12, 2012)

Symphony said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I believe the opposite would be true.  There's no better way to check how a calf is doing as far as growth, body condition and health is concerned than checking on them before and after weaning.  Especially in cow-calf operations, because that's the best way to tell if a cow is raising a good soggy calf or is raising an inferior, scraggly-looking one. 

And yeah, you were certainly asking for an impossible thing by asking a vet out to check the fertility of the calves.  That won't happen until breeding time and afterwards when they're preg-checked.  So you gotta wait at least 15 to 20 mo. before you can determine if that heifer calf you wanna keep is going to be a good cow or beef for the freezer.


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## redtailgal (Jul 12, 2012)

I agree with Royd.........but I will say this much before I surrender my hand in Hijacking this thread.  LOL, Farmerboy......your giving all of us a chance to educate ourselves with so many discussions.  

anyway...........

Not sure what exactly you mean by a herd check.

We lay eyes on the cattle daily, to check for injury, illness etc.  This also help us make sure no one is losing condition.

We dont preg check at all, we just cull the ones that dont take.

After a calf is born, the mother is looked over and the calf is caught and checked for deformities. Calves are looked at daily to ensure that they are nursing and growing properly, and that the mother is not having any udder issues.

At weaning, we put everyone thru the chutes.  Check hooves, tag ears, band bulls, vaccinate, worm etc etc.

We really only put the herd thru the chutes about once a year.  If we have a sick or injured cow that we plan to treat, we will of course catch and run them into the chutes for treatment.

Most of our herd checking is done with the cattle loose and me walking thru the herd.  I dont like to intervene too much, and any cow that needs a whole lot of "chute time" is culled.  Any cow that gives me trouble as I walk thru the herd is culled. If I have to help her calve twice.....she's culled. If she abandons a calf twice, shes culled. 

Others may run theirs thru the chutes more often, but I find it hot dusty work, it stresses me and the cattle.  Cattle drop weight when they are stressed and I gain weight when I am stressed.  Just a bad situation all the way around.


 The goal is to have a solid herd that thrives on neglect, lol.


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## Royd Wood (Jul 12, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Cattle drop weight when they are stressed and I gain weight when I am stressed.  Just a bad situation all the way around.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 13, 2012)

You can do a "test tube check" on a freemartin heifer at a pretty young age, or you can do a blood test, or you can wait and palpate her.  You don't necessarily have to wait 2 years.  We knew a dairy who had a bull/heifer twin set born, and the cow was one of their very best cows, had a linear appraisal of something like 95, so they were keeping the heifer just in case she was fertile. I don't blame them.  Either way, if I had bull/heifer twins, unless the cow was superb I'd just raise the heifer for beef or sell her for beef.


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## Farmerboy (Sep 16, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I agree with Royd.........but I will say this much before I surrender my hand in Hijacking this thread.  LOL, Farmerboy......your giving all of us a chance to educate ourselves with so many discussions.


That is ok as long it does not get out of hand. lol I am learning too! 

Ok, It a bit over due, but... Its Maybelle time! 

Overview-

As a day old-






As a month old, changing color-





Now as a 3 1/2 month old, changing back to black-














I like her better when she is all black, makes her look very pretty, healthy and shiny. 

My mom is NOT a cattle person, but she was looking at Maybelle, and thought that her legs look short. I was thinking that maybe its because her father was a lowline augus? The previous owner was not sure if Bella was bred by a Lowline or a standard Augus bull, as they had brought her already bred.

Maybelle has gotten much bigger, stockier, and tamer! Yay! It was easy to tame her with slices of bread. The cows go crazy for them. Very pushy they are. Got to watch my feet. 

I just can't get over how stocky Maybelle looks! I am sure that she will make some very nice beef calves when bred to Augus bull.

I think that I have missed Bella's heat two times, but I have been eyeballing Bella 24/7 since July, but have seen no sign of heat.   I have found an AI guy that is willing to AI Bella, and he got the Guernsey semen ready. All we have to do is wait for her to go in heat again. 

The rest of the herd.  Please let me know if they look too thin, something wrong, etc.

Bella





November





Pancake




I am wondering what is that round thing right below Pancake's eye? A bug bite? A wart? I have tried popping it, but he won't stand still to let me have a good look on it.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Sep 17, 2012)

Farmerboy, your herd continues to look great! In regards to the thing under Pancakes eye.  It could be a wart.  Our black baldie has a few warts on him.  They kind of look like that.


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## Farmerboy (Oct 28, 2012)

Stubbornhillfarm said:
			
		

> Farmerboy, your herd continues to look great! In regards to the thing under Pancakes eye.  It could be a wart.  Our black baldie has a few warts on him.  They kind of look like that.


It was a zit! While he was stealing Bella's hay at the milking station, I squeezed the area around the zit, and it popped right in my hand. It looked just like an eye at the size of the marble.  The wound have closed up and it looks normal now! 




I got a new job, well 2 jobs. They are both at local dairy farms. One at every Saturday morning at 2 am  to 6:30 am, and the other job is everyday at 6:30 pm to 11:00 pm, and double shifts at every other day at 11:00 am to 3:30 pm. Both farm have their cows milked 3 times a day! For 2 weeks I have to be at the farm at 3 am every morning! So glad that they changed my hours around due the issue of my coworker. YAY, I get to sleep in! So, been very busy! I am trying to get everything winterized for the winter that will be hitting us very soon.

One of the most coolest thing is that one of the guys that work at the farm used to own Bella before he sold her to a guy, who sold her to me! He still have Bella's mother! And Maybelle's father too!
I went to his farm yesterday, it was cool to be there!

Very beautiful pure Guernsey. Can't wait to get my own Guernsey cow! 

Bonnie-












Her daughter- my cow-
Can anyone see any similarities between the two?





I dream of having my own small herd of pure Guernsey someday, and might have chance to buy a pure and bred heifer soon! 

Also met Maybelle's father!! Pure LowLine Angus. He is 7 years old and is soo short! Barely past my waist!  

Little Man-




Can anyone see any similarities between the two also?





I am still not able to catch Bella in heat again. Its getting frustrating! According to her heat cycle, she is due to be in heat again sometime this week. Please pray that I will catch her in heat at the right time this week, and get her bred!


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## redtailgal (Oct 28, 2012)

Its cool how that all worked out!

I do see some similarities, lol.

They are looking good.


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## Alice Acres (Oct 28, 2012)

Your Bella looks a LOT like our main cow Molly we had growing up. And she was out of a 1st time freshening Holstein dairy heifer bred to an Angus bull. Wonderful cow!!

Nice pictures of your gang


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## Farmerboy (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks!



Great news!!!!

I finally caught Bella mounting one of the steers, and acting like she is in heat! I checked her over, and texted my friend (Bella's former owner) to confirm if Bella is in heat. He texted me back saying that she sounds like that she is in heat and I should call the AI guy to breed her. So... I did, and he came over and confirmed that she is in heat, and AI her! If she settles and really got bred, she will be due in July! Woot! 

The AI guy gave me the bull's name and serial number and I looked it up.

This is the future calf's father- A pure Guernsey
Delta


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## Southern by choice (Nov 1, 2012)

Happy for you!!    so in  July we will have to get lots of pics


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## Farmerboy (Nov 1, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Happy for you!!    so in  July we will have to get lots of pics


You betcha that I will take lots of pictures! Is it pretty obvious that I have been posting pictures a bit much already? LOL


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## redtailgal (Nov 1, 2012)

well, you should have a nice calf!  He is a handsome bull!

Congrats!


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## Alice Acres (Nov 1, 2012)

Ah, the joys of AI - you can get a really nice bull's genetics that you otherwise would not have access to!

I hope she takes and you have a nice calf this spring


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Nov 2, 2012)

Congrats!  What a nice looking bull!  Sure to be a grand calf when it arrives.


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## Lothiriel (Nov 2, 2012)

That's one really good looking bull. Bella's baby will be gorgeous! Congrats!


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## Farmerboy (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the comments about the bull.  I just hope that he is A2A2. I have sent some of Bella's tail hair in the mail to be tested for A2A2. I pray that she is! I also hope that the calf will have the same color as the father.


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## Lothiriel (Nov 3, 2012)

Good luck on the testing.  We recently tested two of ours and one was A1/A1 (Jersey) and the other was A1/A2 (JerseyxHolstein). I've heard that Guernseys have a lot of the A2/A2 genetics still in their blood though. Let us know when you get the results for Bella!


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## Farmerboy (Nov 4, 2012)

That is a bummer that your cow is not A2A2. But in 2 or 3 generations from that cow, the offspring can be A2A2 when the breeding is done right with the right bull. 

Chances of Guernseys being A2A2 is 96%, so Bella has a good chance!  But I wonder if Angus breed are A2A2, but probably never been tested for they are not dairy breed.


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## Lothiriel (Nov 4, 2012)

Yep, we've been trying to work it out on paper when we'd get an A2A2 cow. It's confusing if it's not written down! 

I have no idea about Angus either... It would be interesting to check it out/get it tested.


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## kstaven (Nov 4, 2012)

Angus is not an A2 lineage.


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## Farmerboy (Nov 8, 2012)

Well, I just received an email from VGL, and the test report for A2 Genotyping results for Bella is.................A2/A2- 2 copies of A2 present!!!

WOOT!!! HAPPY DANCE!!! :bun    (I don't dance, but this occasion calls for it. lol)

So, that means that Bella's father the Angus is A2/A2 also! So, even beef breeds can be A2/A2.


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## Farmerboy (Nov 8, 2012)

Lothiriel- They had provided a code for A2s. Hope that helped.


Result Codes:

A2/A2- 2 copies of A2 present. If bred to other A2/A2 animals, only A2/A2 offspring will be produced

A1/A2- 1 copy of A2 present. If bred to A2/A2 animals, 50% of offspring will be A2/A2

A1/A1- No copies of A2 present


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## redtailgal (Nov 8, 2012)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Angus is not an A2 lineage.


is too!  

Seriously, I've seen several angus bulls advertised with A2 lineage.  Do you know something I dont know?  If you do, then I need to know it, lol.


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## greybeard (Nov 8, 2012)

Any breed "can" be A2, but most black cattle are predominantly  A1.

(not that I personally believe in all this "a2-a2 is superior to..." malarky.

Good marketing ploy tho--gotta admit that. CAB label----move over. The next "latest and greatest" marketing campaign is nudging ya out of the way.
Congrats to the Guernsey Breed Assoc!!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 8, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> Well, I just received an email from VGL, and the test report for A2 Genotyping results for Bella is.................A2/A2- 2 copies of A2 present!!!
> 
> WOOT!!! HAPPY DANCE!!! :bun    (I don't dance, but this occasion calls for it. lol)
> 
> So, that means that Bella's father the Angus is A2/A2 also! So, even beef breeds can be A2/A2.


Don't know what any of it means 'cause I know nothing cattle but I figure it's gotta be good so I'm dancin with ya!

:bun :bun :bun


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## redtailgal (Nov 8, 2012)

greybeard said:
			
		

> Any breed "can" be A2, but most black cattle are predominantly  A1.
> 
> (not that I personally believe in all this "a2-a2 is superior to..." malarky.
> 
> ...


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## Lothiriel (Nov 9, 2012)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> Well, I just received an email from VGL, and the test report for A2 Genotyping results for Bella is.................A2/A2- 2 copies of A2 present!!!
> 
> WOOT!!! HAPPY DANCE!!! :bun    (I don't dance, but this occasion calls for it. lol)
> 
> So, that means that Bella's father the Angus is A2/A2 also! So, even beef breeds can be A2/A2.


 That's awesome! 

Actually, the Angus bull could have been A1/A2, and she got his A2 gene. See, from what I understand the A1 and A2 business can be figured with Punnet squares.

A1/A1 over A1/A1 will produce A1/A1 offspring 100% of the time.






A1/A2 over A1/A1, there's a 50% chance of an A1/A1, and a 50% chance of A1/A2





A1/A2 over A1/A2, 50% chance of A1/A2, 25% chance of A1/A1, 25% chance of A2/A2





A2/A2 over A1/A1, 100% of the offspring will be A1/A2





A2/A2 over A2/A2 will produce 100% A2/A2 offspring






Like greybeard said, any breed can have the A2 gene.


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## Farmerboy (Nov 9, 2012)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Don't know what any of it means 'cause I know nothing cattle but I figure it's gotta be good so I'm dancin with ya!
> 
> :bun :bun :bun


You can google what A2 is.
But thanks for dancing with me! 

Lothiriel- Thanks for sharing that. That will be a great help when I need it for future breeding.


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## Farmerboy (Dec 14, 2012)

Before "I" forget again, I got Bella's blood test results last week Friday regarding to see if she is pregnant or not.



She











is













pregnant!!   


She is due on August 10th for her 2nd calf. That is a long ways to wait.  BUT, time flies! 

I hope that the calf will have the same coloring as the bull that I used. I want a Guernsey color calf!


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## redtailgal (Dec 14, 2012)

I'm happy for you!


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## Alice Acres (Dec 14, 2012)

That is great news!!


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## neener92 (Dec 14, 2012)

How exciting!

Just so you know, your thread has got me loving Guernseys! I'm so glad I got mine! They are gorgeous addicting cattle!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 14, 2012)

I peek in the cattle section from time to time, so glad I saw this! Nice to hear some happy news!
So happy for you! Here cow the dancin' cows again! 

:bun :bun :bun  and a


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## Farmerboy (Dec 22, 2012)

Thanks everyone!

neener92- Glad that I was able to help push you over to the Guernseys.  I like them too, want to have a pure one someday.... 


Kay, time for a picture update on my gals-


Maybelle will be 7 months old in a week!!!! Can't believe how fast time flies! She is in the pasture where the steers are, as I am weaning her. Poor Bella, all by herself in the pen and have the biggest pasture to herself, but she rather be with the others, but the steers are being banned to the wood pasture as they ate my chicken coop.    

Pictures taken a few weeks ago.










I have found this picture of Maybelle as a day old calf that I never posted here. She has changed and filled out so much!


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## herdsman (Dec 22, 2012)

That is one of the most friendliest crosses you can get my uncle had them gals and they were amazing


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## Farmerboy (Dec 28, 2012)

I got a green Family Farm & Home cap and cow bell for Christmas from sister #4 as she drew my name.

But she did not think to get a collar to go with the bell.....

So, got one after looking for it at 3 different stores! But I am glad that the collar fits after all that driving!

Pictures taken today. I am weaning the calf, so the calf is in the pasture #1 with the steers, I am still milking Bella. Getting a gallon and a half of milk each day. I am only milking her once a day.


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## redtailgal (Dec 28, 2012)

Looks great!


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## Symphony (Feb 6, 2013)

Just read your journal and want to know how your doing. How's the growing farm family?


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## Farmerboy (Feb 6, 2013)

Everyone is doing fine, they are fat and sazzy. 

 I have been battling mastitis in Bella's right back quarter. It keeps coming back every time I treat her. Its very frustrating. It started back in July 15, and treated her with penicillin, then it was gone right away, but the production in that quarter has never been the same. Mastitis came back in mid December, and I have been treating it with Vit D 2 times, and Spectamas 3 times. It only work for a few days then becomes infected again although I have been dipping her teats with iodine  every time I milk her.   *sigh* I will just have to give up on that quarter and let it dry up. Maybe it will heal and go back to normal next time she freshens in August. 

 If I don't get another cow by May, I will dry up Bella in May 1st, so she will have a nice 3 1/2 month break before she is due to calve. But I am hoping to get a pure Guernsey cow from an Amish farm in March, if I do get a lactating cow, then I will dry Bella off right away.


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## WildRoseBeef (Feb 6, 2013)

Glad to hear everyone's doing great.

Have you been treating her only when she's ill then stopping treatments as soon as it goes away?  That could be the problem.  Relapses happen most often when you do this, not keeping up with the treatments a few days after she's "healed" up, or showed signs of the infection going away.  Good way to get the bacteria to develop resistance to the drugs your using and make it twice as hard to get the quarter to heal up fully.  JM2C.


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## Farmerboy (Feb 7, 2013)

The last treatment I gave was a day apart. Injected on Sunday, and repeated on Monday. I dislike using drugs, but it was the only way to rid of the issue, but did not work.


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## Symphony (Feb 7, 2013)

Nice to hear most is good.  Sorry about the Mastisis issues.  Yeah, its best to do a full series of treatments to nip it in the bud.  It can be very painful for the animals to keep getting the infection and I agree to stop milking on that quarter.


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## Farmerboy (Feb 7, 2013)

Tomorrow I will milk out that quarter for the last time, and inject the rest of vitamin D that I have in that quarter. Vitamin D is suppose to help fight against  the infection, so my hope is that it will also help heal the mammary gland too. Then when she freshens, I will see if it had worked or not.

Here is today's picture of the herd in the snowstorm. 








Yes, Maybelle have a nose pokey thing on her nose, its the only way that she can't nurse. 

These were taken last week when we got spring-like thaw that produced heavy fog and lots of rain!

Can you spot Maybelle in one of these pictures???


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## Cricket (Feb 8, 2013)

Have you tried Oil of Oregano?  I've heard of people around here using it with good results.  Your calves have grown really well, too!


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## Farmerboy (Feb 8, 2013)

Cricket said:
			
		

> Have you tried Oil of Oregano?  I've heard of people around here using it with good results.  Your calves have grown really well, too!


No, I have not heard of Oil of Oregano. I do have some in the garden, that is if the hogs have not eaten the entire bed... Won't know until spring...




Snowstorm is over, and the sun is out!!!


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## Farmerboy (Apr 3, 2013)

Well, it has been a while since I had posted here. And a lot have happened since then. An brief rundown- The 20 acre land next to us that the owner had let me use for the cows got sold(I have been wanting to buy for years, but had no money), so I had to get everything off by March 14, and that leaves only 3 acre of pasture for my cows. So we will have to get the steers butchered/sold in a week or two, so there will be more grass for Bella and Maybelle. I got 2 goats, so they can clear the pasture and the woods of weeds and brush so more grass can grow for the cows. Bella have passed halfway through pregnancy! 5 months along and 4 more months to go! Woot!  


AND the most exciting thing is- That my best friend and I drove 156 miles one way today to get these......(I did the driving, and my friend supervises. lol)
It was a beautiful day for driving!






In their new home at my friend's farm.  We are keeping the Guernsey calves at his farm, I will take mine home if our pasture can support another cow, or I have found a farm to buy. I brought one, and my friend brought the other. Mine is the darker one, and I named her- Willow. The big cow with the horns- Bonnie- is the mother of my cow- Bella. She is pure Guernsey too, but my cow is half Guernsey. 

















The other Guernseys at the farm where we got the calves from.





















This cow is about 11 or 12 years old, and still going strong!









This cow (Sweety) is the mother of my calf. Her name is Sweety because she gives very sweet milk, and my calf will do the same. Can't wait to try her milk when she calves in about 2 years!


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## woodsie (Apr 3, 2013)

THose calves are to DIE for!!! I am so jealous, I would love to get a Guernsey calf too! Gorgeous!


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## Farmerboy (Aug 9, 2013)

Its been a long time since I have posted here. Been busy busy. 

Bella is getting ready to calve either today or tomorrow! She is due tomorrow!












November- He is huge! Pancake was butchered and sold in the last week of March as we were running low on hay and hay prices were too high.










Maybelle- I plan to AI her as soon I see her in heat. Will breed her to a Lowline.


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## Cricket (Aug 11, 2013)

They look great--good luck with the calving!  I bet your folks are some proud of you and glad they let you get cattle!


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## Farmerboy (Aug 17, 2013)

Bella finally gave birth today!!! 7 days past her due date!! Its a girl! WOOT!!! 

Belinda being born.




































I am quite surprised at Belinda's color! She is gray with some dark brown and white markings! And she is so soft! But Bella is very very protective of her baby. Bella had charged at me, and everyone had to keep their distance. It might be a challenge to get her into my new milkshed to milk her tomorrow morning. I can't wait to see how much milk she will produce! She loves apples, so I will bribe her with those to get her into the milkshed.


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## woodsie (Aug 17, 2013)

Yay for a Heifer! Congrats! Very unusual but beautiful calf...gotta love those eyelashes!


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## WildRoseBeef (Aug 18, 2013)

Congrats on the new addition! 

I wouldn't say that it's an unusual colouration--you should see those Angus calves when they're newborns: they're practically red when they come out of their mommas.  As they get older, they get more black, which I bet would happen with this little girl.


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## Farmerboy (Aug 18, 2013)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> Congrats on the new addition!
> 
> I wouldn't say that it's an unusual colouration--you should see those Angus calves when they're newborns: they're practically red when they come out of their mommas.  As they get older, they get more black, which I bet would happen with this little girl.


She is 75% Guernsey, so I was thinking that she won't be black or become black. I hope that she will keep the color! Its too pretty!


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## WildRoseBeef (Aug 19, 2013)

Well, Farmerboy, I guess there's just only one way to find out!


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## Farmerboy (Aug 20, 2013)

WildRoseBeef- Yup, you are right! 

So, at what age do they have their permanent color?


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## promiseacres (Aug 20, 2013)

very cute heifer


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## WildRoseBeef (Aug 20, 2013)

Farmerboy said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef- Yup, you are right!
> 
> So, at what age do they have their permanent color?


It's hard to say...I'm banking on around 4 to 6 months, but it depends on the individual. Even then their coat colour changes with the change in seasons, from summer to winter.


----------

