# Newbie needing feeding advice for possibly underfed does



## Jster (Sep 20, 2009)

We got two very sweet does about a week ago.  They are six months old.  According to their chest measurement, they're about sixty pounds, but they seem to be somewhat lean condition from what I've been reading.  According to their previous owners, they were kept with chickens.  Their food was not measured but just thrown on the ground and they had to get it before the chickens did.  They had eaten anything edible in the yard so did not get to forage.  I asked after we got them about hay, because I realized they hadn't mentioned it.  We have some coastal hay from our own chickens nest boxes, but I realized they may not have been getting any.  She said they had given them hay but that the goats hadn't been interested.  Oh, and they fed them a mix of goat chow and oats, with much more oats than chow.  And they had not trimmed their hooves at all in the four months they had them, so the goats definitely need some attention and I don't think these owners really put much effort into learning how to care for them.

Here's some pictures of our beautiful and sweet girls for your evaluation:












So, my questions are:

Do you think the girls are underweight?
What is the best way to help them get to a healthy weight?
I know not to change their diet quickly, but how slowly can I get them off this oat/chow mix into something better?
How much should I feed them every day...they act starving!  (Oh, and they have plenty of lush pasture, an acre fenced that they live in and more when they are in the rest of the yard with us.)

Thanks in advance!


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## ksalvagno (Sep 20, 2009)

They do look a bit underweight.

I would suggest getting some good quality alfalfa or grass/alfalfa mix hay and give it to them free choice. Also get a good goat feed and feed them what the instructions say on the bag.

I would also suggest taking a fecal sample into the vet and have them run a test for worms including a test run for coccidia. Then once you get the fecal results, worm appropriately.

Have the girls been properly vaccinated? If they haven't, they also need to be vaccinated.

To put weight on, you don't need to give them extra grain. The hay will actually put the weight on them better than the grain. Plus if they end up being wormy, getting the parasites taken care of will do wonders.

Congratulations on your new goats. They are adorable!


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## ksalvagno (Sep 20, 2009)

I just noticed that you want to know how fast to change them over to new feed. I'm not really sure with goats but what I do with alpacas is to start with a quarter of the new feed with 3/4 of the old feed, feed it to them for a few days. Then I mix half and half, feed it to them for a few days. Then 3/4 new stuff and 1/4 old stuff and feed it to them for a few days. Then full new feed. I probably do it in about a 2 week timeframe. Hopefully someone with more goat experience can give you a better answer on that one.


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## freemotion (Sep 20, 2009)

They are adorable!  A little on the thin side, but not to worry.  With the great pasture and the care just mentioned, they will catch up pretty quickly.  I change feed at about the rate just mentioned.  

And even my fat goats act like they are starving to death all the time!  But the babies will have a note to their cries when they are missing something in their diets.  You will notice this note goes away (but the begging doesn't  ) as they get the propper food.

Are they pets or will you eventually breed them and milk them?  Such cuties!


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## Jster (Sep 20, 2009)

Thanks for the quick replies karen and freemotion!

We are totally in love with the goats, they have wonderful temperments and are just all around fun.  As you can see in one picture, my 2 year old son is hanging off the side of Penelope begging to go up, and they tolerate him wonderfully.  We do hope to breed them and milk them.

Thanks for all the suggestions!  I'm not totally sure if alfalfa is available here...I think coastal hay is mostly what's around.  That's what you get for being by the coast.  And to be honest, we're a little nervous about purchasing hay now.  We bought some from a smaller, independent feed store in town and it was LOADED with german cockroaches, which are now all over our house and property.  So I'll look for it...but I've also seen mention of alfalfa pellets, might that be a good alternative (the does will get plenty of foraging).  

Also...how much to feed them quantity wise?  I've seen three cups a day, per doe, should I feed them a little extra?  Or is that enough to help them gain and maintain weight?  

Thanks again!


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## Jster (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh, and I'm also thinking they weren't getting any minerals where they were before.  I was just reading the thread about them and the stuff I bought seems good, it actually has chelated minerals for proper absorption, but for now they are totally uninterested.  They did lick my sweaty legs yesterday, though!


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2009)

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think these two look all that bad at all..  They look a bit hollow, but it's not like they've got course, dry, wirey hair protruding from sharp shortrib and hipbone outlines or anything..  Had you simply said "Hey, look at my new goats!" I would just figure they hadn't filled up on hay yet..  

To be 60lbs at 6mo is spot-on perfect, frankly...can't help but think that if they had big problems or were kept really roughly, they wouldn't have hit that benchmark.

As for feeding, just get them switched over slowly to what they'll be eating at your place..  If you can't easily mix in a new grain ration, I'd probably just give them a few days off any grain, then just start off light with the new grain and work my way slowly toward the intended portion.

If you can't find any alfalfa hay, you might look for clover or lespedeza...  They're similar.  I don't have any experience with alfalfa cubes or pellets, but protein is protein.  I just wouldn't personally count cubes or pellets in the 'hay' column since they don't have long fibers, even though they're made from alfalfa...  So, if you feed cubes and pellets, make sure they get plenty of palatable free choice hay as well.

Come to think of it, that may be why they look hollow...if they were never interested in hay when they were little, they may just not have developed their rumens very well yet...maybe...or like I said, they could have just not eaten much roughage that day.  Who knows?

Either way...all in all, I think the goats actually look pretty good.


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## helmstead (Sep 21, 2009)

And...they are ADORABLE!!!


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 21, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> To be 60lbs at 6mo is spot-on perfect, frankly...


I just had my 6 mo mini-nubian at the vet.  She weighed in at 30 pounds exactly.  I have been wondering how that compares with a full sized doe.  Thanks!

These two are SOOOO cute!  And great that they let your kids climb all over them.  Ours were not that friendly where we got them, but they sure have come around now!  I love to see all my kids playing together (human and goat).


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2009)

Mini-M Ranch said:
			
		

> I just had my 6 mo mini-nubian at the vet.  She weighed in at 30 pounds exactly.  I have been wondering how that compares with a full sized doe.  Thanks!


No clue..  Sorry.  :/

All I know is that full-size dairy breeds, as a general rule, are supposed to gain about 10lbs/mo..


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## Jster (Sep 21, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> To be 60lbs at 6mo is spot-on perfect, frankly...can't help but think that if they had big problems or were kept really roughly, they wouldn't have hit that benchmark.
> 
> Either way...all in all, I think the goats actually look pretty good.


Thanks CM for your reply!  

Well, to be honest, I have no clue about anything, being new to all this.  I was looking at books and pictures online, and at the doe condition chart in one of our books, and I can very easily feel their ribs and slightly see them.  But they do seem healthy and energetic, their droppings are appropriate, and honestly it could just be newbie confusion!  

So...we will resist the temptation to increase their feed at least until we can judge it a little better, counting on their available forage and free choice hay to help them fatten up if they need it.  

I have some wormer left over from the previous owners, it's the medicated food type, does that treat all kinds?  (The bag itself has no label on it).  Should we get a fecal test done or just try that?  

I checked into alfalfa hay and it's not available nearvy, but pellets and cubes are.  Cubes didn't seem a good idea, and we could pellets to combine with their food or just stick with what we've got.  

And I agree, they're adorable!  As sweet as dogs, and good dogs at that.  Although one of them was trying to play with my two year old and head butted him slightly and he fell over, boy was he upset and the goat looked so ashamed when I yelled at her!)  She likes him so much and truly just wanted to play.  So we'll make sure we monitor things, but they are definitely all cute together and so much fun.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 21, 2009)

Jster said:
			
		

> Well, to be honest, I have no clue about anything, being new to all this.  I was looking at books and pictures online, and at the doe condition chart in one of our books, and I can very easily feel their ribs and slightly see them.  But they do seem healthy and energetic, their droppings are appropriate, and honestly it could just be newbie confusion!


OR...maybe the pictures lied a little, and they're thinner in real life than they appeared to me in the pictures.





			
				Jster said:
			
		

> So...we will resist the temptation to increase their feed at least until we can judge it a little better, counting on their available forage and free choice hay to help them fatten up if they need it.


Actually, I'd advise ignoring me on this point, since it appears that I gacked it from the get-go..  

Go with your gut...if you think they're too thin, they're probably too thin.  If your gut tells you that they need extra supplementation, give it.



			
				Jster said:
			
		

> I have some wormer left over from the previous owners, it's the medicated food type, does that treat all kinds?  (The bag itself has no label on it).


Personally, I don't like the idea of the deworming pellet.  To be fair, though, I've never used it and it may work like gangbusters...I just personally feel more comfortable putting a syringe full of something down their piehole.  Then you know they got it, and that one didn't knock the other one out and eat 3/4ths of the pellets...and nobody knocked it over or wasted it, or whatever.

If they're wormy now after having been exposed to the pellet dewormer in the past, it may be prudent to switch dewormer classes anyway.  The active ingredient in deworming rations is most often morantel tartrate or pyrantel or something like that, which is in the nicotinic anthelmintic family...though Safe Guard makes one that contains fenbendazole, but more on that in a sec..

Now, assuming that it's a morantel- or pyrantel-based product, that leaves you with the white wormers (safe guard, panacur, valbazen, etc) and the _ectin family (ivomec, cydectin, eprinex, etc)..  

If it's a Safe Guard pellet dewormer with fenbendazole, you're looking at either an _ectin, one of the morantel/pyrantel dewormers, or a levamisole dewormer..  Of the three, I'd choose an _ectin simply because the morantel/pyrantel is usually ration dewormer (of which I've already expressed my dislike) and because levamisole is dangnear impossible to find these days.

Unfortunately, you don't have the label...in that case, I'd go with an _ectin like Ivomec injectable 1%, dosed orally @ 3ml/100lb, repeated in about 10 days.

But, that's just me!



			
				Jster said:
			
		

> Should we get a fecal test done or just try that?


Running a fecal exam is never a bad idea, as it's usually fairly inexpensive and you'll at least have a baseline parasite load and know what kinds of worms you're dealing with.  You could even get a cocci count while you're at it...  

Checking their eyelids, too, using the FAMACHA system is also a good idea, though it primarily just tells you how they're doing in terms of their haemonchus contortus load -- aka, barberpole worms.  That may sound a little silly to be checking just for one worm, but suffice it to say that as parasites go, barberpoles are quite possibly a goat's #1 enemy..  

My advice would be that if they look anemic at all, worm now and ask questions later.  



			
				Jster said:
			
		

> I checked into alfalfa hay and it's not available nearvy, but pellets and cubes are.  Cubes didn't seem a good idea, and we could pellets to combine with their food or just stick with what we've got.


Let me preface this by saying that I've never used alfalfa pellets, either, and they could be the greatest thing since color TV..

However...imho...alfalfa and goats go so well together because alfalfa is a roughage that happens also to be high in calcium and protein, and low in phosphorus.  If you grind it up into pellets, it's still high in calcium and phosphorus, but it's not roughage anymore.  

That said, I don't really "get" the point of alfalfa pellets when there's already high protein, high calcium, low phosphorus pelleted feed out there in the form of the various specifically-formulated goat grain products..  Personally, I think those are better, because they have added trace minerals and vitamins and so forth....and they can usually be had cheaper than alfalfa pellets!  

Yes, alfalfa is a natural food...but it's delivered in such an unnatural way that it loses a lot of the original benefit.  IMHO, anyway..  I figure if I'm going to spend $X on goat feed, I'm going to get as much out of it as possible..  Alfalfa pellets just don't stack up when you look at it that way -- but it's GREAT as hay!

I know that's probably confusing, but...well, it's just my $.02.  

Take it for exactly what it cost ya.


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## Roll farms (Sep 21, 2009)

Beautiful, I looooove the black / white but the spotted one's gorgeous as well.
Congrats!


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## ksalvagno (Sep 21, 2009)

If you use a pelleted feed type of wormer, you have to make sure that the goats eat the appropriate amount all at once. So you are counting on them to like the feed and eat all of it. I prefer injectible or liquid that I can measure out and quickly give and know that they got the right amount.

I would suggest taking the fecals into the vet and see if you have anything. If your girls happen to have no parasites, then there is no reason to worm them. If they do have parasites, then you want to worm with the proper wormers. Parasites can become resistant to wormers if used too often or inappropriately.

Also find out from the vet or a local goat breeder what worming protocols are used in your area. Then you can get your goats on a proper worming schedule. It is important that you use a worming protocol for your area because different parasites are prevalent in different areas.


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## warthog (Sep 21, 2009)

Is there a problem feeding oats to goats?


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## freemotion (Sep 21, 2009)

I feed whole oats, barley, and sunflower seeds as my main grain mix.  I have for years.  I have been soaking it to increase the nutrient availability and sprouting it a bit, too, to increase the protein levels.  It works well for me.  I have no wethers or bucks, though, so I have no clue if this would work for them.  I will keep a buck for 2-3 months to breed my does this year, and will just feed him whatever he is being fed by his current owners then sell him "down the river" when his job is done.  I also don't show or breed purebreds, I just want hardy homestead goats.  My goals are different from most.

Whole grains fed to chickens dramatically reduces incidence of coccidiosis, btw.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2009)

warthog said:
			
		

> Is there a problem feeding oats to goats?


Oats are low calcium, high phosphorus...like, 1:7, Ca.  Most goat grains are mixed 2:1, Ca to prevent urinary calculi.  

Probably not as much of a problem if you're feeding does, but I'd keep it away from wethers unless you could balance it out with something else.


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## freemotion (Sep 22, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> warthog said:
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Alfalfa?


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
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Perhaps, or clover.  Beet pulp shreds are about 6:1, Ca, based on my reading..    Soybean hulls are higher in calcium than phosphporus, too, if I recall correctly, but fairly low in protein...can't remember the specific numbers on soybean hulls right off hand.  Kale is balanced about 3:1, though I know there's such a thing as 'kale poisoning' which somehow leads to hemolytic anemia (just like acute copper toxicity -- BAD) so........

All in all, though, what it basically* comes down to is weight....grams of Ca versus grams of P..  If you take something that's 1% calcium and 6% phosphorus (just for instance) and mix it 50/50 by weight with something that's 1.2% calcium and .2% phosphorus, you're still WAY heavy on phosphorus -- even though it may initially look like you balanced a 1:6 with a 6:1.  

My best advice would be to do the research on the ingredient and break out the calculator..  



* If you really wanna start throwing wrenches into things, consider the _bioavailability_ of each ingredient's particular form of calcium and phosphorus (and everything else)..  Beet pulp, for instance, is higher in oxalates, which bind calcium and make it unavailable to the animal...so, is it _really_ 6:1?.  :/


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## freemotion (Sep 22, 2009)

Wow, I will only keep girls and give them a very, very varied diet always.  You get into the most trouble with any animal, including us, if you eat a very limited number of foods and if they are processed.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2009)

True..  In my personal opinion, the ideal way to feed a goat is to provide access to sustainable browse and graze, supplemented with an appropriate mineral and plenty of fresh water..  

My advice to anyone would be to start there and work downward with thoughtful supplementation _as necessary_ -- no more, no less -- until you're successfully managing the reality of your particular situation.


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## freemotion (Sep 22, 2009)

Absolutely!


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## Jster (Sep 23, 2009)

Thanks for keeping this thread going with such great information!  I had a couple difficult days at work and haven't been addressing goat issues other than the wonderful therapy they provide (yesterday after a sleepless night I went and watched the sunrise with my goats, it was very nice hearing the birds wake up and they enjoyed the company as well).  

The only problem I saw with all the oats they were getting is that proportion wise, it was probably 2/3 oats, 1/3 goat chow, and just did not seem balanced.  I'm sure oats are fine as part of a diet, but like I said these goats did not have access to pasture, did not have measured feeds but fought the chickens for their food, and did not appear to have hay or minerals offered.  So it just led to an uneducated feeling that they weren't getting what they needed because they didn't have much choice.  Now I'm happy that the does have lots of great pasture and I'm trying to make sure that the grain/supplements have variety for them.  

My only worry now is they don't seem to be drinking much water.  Could it be because they are eating a lot of green leaves and other watery plants?  Ah, well, we just have to find balance.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 23, 2009)

If they are out in pasture and eating the plants, they probably won't drink a lot. Yes, there is moisture content in the grass. My girls drink more water on days when I have to keep them locked up by the barn than when they are out in pasture.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 23, 2009)

I remember reading once that a large number of old-school herders in Africa believe goats don't drink water, so they don't provide water..  Obviously, they do drink water, but when they're grazing and browsing a lot, they may not touch it for days...we've seen that happen many times with our goats.

If you haven't already, set a good loose mineral mix out beside their water source.  We switched to a custom blend mineral that's apparently MUCH more palatable than our old mix, and they're hitting it pretty consistently now..  The result is that their waterers are MUCH lower at night when we refresh them than they ever used to be.


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