# OK need advice please (new question about raising condition)



## redtailgal (Aug 27, 2011)

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## jodief100 (Aug 27, 2011)

Safeguard is pretty worthless in most places.  If you are worried about bleeding out you can give it to them to kill them off slowly.  It will not be sufficient to get them all.  I would give them the safeguard for 3 days in a row and then hit them with something stronger, like Ivemectin.  Dose the Safeguard at 3x the label dosage.

I really doubt they are bad enough to worry about bleed out if they are not white.  Don't kick yourself, worms can sneak up on you fast.  Heat and humidity make it worse.


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## redtailgal (Aug 27, 2011)

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## jodief100 (Aug 27, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I should dose the Safeguard at 3x even if its labeled FOR goats?


Yes.  The worms in most places are very resistant to Safeguard.  It is a mild wormer so there is no risk overdosing.


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> redtailgal said:
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Yup.


And on the Red Cell:  I dose at 6ml per 20-30# every 8 hrs for 24 hrs then 1x weekly until better.


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## redtailgal (Aug 27, 2011)

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## redtailgal (Aug 27, 2011)

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## freemotion (Aug 27, 2011)

Don't feel too bad, they can get that way pretty darn fast if conditions are right.  I put my "difficult" gal right with an herbal mix and Red Cell.  Give it some time to work, you won't see dark salmon pink the next day.  They have to build up again.

If you don't want to go the herbal route, it can still be a good way to reduce numbers before chemically deworming.  I will reach for the pharmaceuticals if the herbals aren't getting the job done.  So far, so good, no chemicals needed this year, my second year with herbals.  I used the chemical dewormer three times last year on two different goats in a herd of seven last year.  Not exactly a ton of experience so your results may vary.


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## kstaven (Aug 27, 2011)

What are you mixing for a wormer Freemotion?


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## redtailgal (Aug 27, 2011)

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## kstaven (Aug 27, 2011)

pumpkin seed, garlic, wormwood, wild mustard, ginger root, tea , parsley, quassia chips and pau d' arco, also known as taheebo,


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## kstaven (Aug 27, 2011)

Pumpkin seed, garlic, wormwood, wild mustard, ginger root, tea , parsley, quassia chips and pau d' arco, also known as taheebo, black walnut hull powder seem to be the most common ingredients you see.


Some herbs you want to avoid in wormers for bucks in breeding season because they can lower sperm counts are: red clover, raw soy, fenugreek, kudzu and neem.

Interesting to note that a number of standard wormers out there are extracted derivatives of some of the above.


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

RTG - remember that it will take them up to 2 weeks to move up a number on the FAMACHA card after you begin treatment...so if he's super low it's gonna take a good amount of time to get that anemia completely under control.


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## redtailgal (Aug 27, 2011)

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## kstaven (Aug 27, 2011)

You can be right on top of things like worms, have a weather shift that creates a bloom in the soil, and it goes from there.


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## elevan (Aug 27, 2011)

I would continue the Red Cell until he scores a FAMACHA-3 at least...maybe FAMACHA-2.

Also based on the parasitology stuff I've been attending lately - if you could get your hands on Valbazen instead of Safeguard that would be good.  Valbazen has been shown to inhibit the hatching of H.C. eggs.  We give Valbazen here at 1ml / 25#.  I would follow that 5 days later with a dose of ivermectin (given orally at 1 ml/ 22# here).

I can certainly understand your anxiety after losing Hoover.

All classes of dewormers are supposed to take care of barber pole worms but it's the level of resistance that's built up by the worm that becomes the problem in deciding what to go with.  To be honest the extension vet says skip the ivermectin and go with cydectin but use judiciously.  He also stated that he's never seen an animal bleed out from dropping their worm load (that was brought up today actually).

So...

Safeguard will buy you time if you're worried about bleeding out - which may or may not happen...
Valbazen will inhibit the eggs from hatching which will also buy you time - but is in the same family as safeguard
Ivermectin will work but may not be effective in your area
Cydectin is a better choice than ivermectin

You'll have to decide what dewormer route you wanna take...but definitely get on the Red Cell ASAP - it'll give him a much needed boost to deal with the bloom.


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## redtailgal (Aug 28, 2011)

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## Roll farms (Aug 28, 2011)

So are you telling me I should be ashamed b/c I had a goat get bottle jaw from barberpole once?  

It can happen amazingly fast, and I was lulled into a false sense of security b/c she was my biggest, fattest, healthiest looking doe...it was also before I knew what FAMACHA was.

Don't feel bad, you caught it before he got to that point AND you're going to treat him, you did GOOD!

I treated her w/ 2x the safeguard dosage (this was back a few years, nobody told me to triple it, but I knew it wasn't worth much so I decided to double it on my own) for 3 days and then ivo every 14 days, and gave her calf manna (vet's suggestion) and red cell (goat-raising friend's suggestion) daily for a couple weeks.  Then - she went to the sale barn.  I will not breed resistance into the herd, so I didn't want to keep her and breed her.  Since these boys are pet wethers, you don't have to worry about that aspect, but it's something to keep in mind when you start breeding...if you have to coddle them to keep them healthy, no matter how nice they are, they are eating your profits.

Also, I like valbazen better than safeguard BUT it can't be used on just-bred does (I choose not to use it on a bred doe at all).

I prefer to not use pour-ons as oral dewormers, I use the injectable.  I don't like what the pour-ons have in the ingredients (pour-on cydectin contains naptha- gee, no wonder it kills worms, lol)....lots of folks use them and have good luck though-it's a personal choice, sort of like herbal vs. chemical.  The dosage is also smaller, so it's more economical.
I bought a bottle of cydectin injectable, the dosage is only 1cc per 100# and it has lasted me 3 years now (and I have a lot of goats) b/c I rarely use it....I still have good luck w/ ivomec injectable at 1cc per 25# for worms, but will use cydectin when I have to.  I've used them both more for mite/lice problems this year than I ever have for worms.

I would also consider giving him a goodly dose of copper oxide...BUT if you do that, don't continue the red cell...you don't want to overdose the little dude on copper.  The kids I gave copper to this spring have not needed dewormed yet.

There is a lot of conflicting opinion, even from 'experts' and universities.  
We lost a pygmy goat...oh, it's been 20 years ago...to bleed out from hookworms.  She was ate up w/ them.  We'd only had her a couple weeks, took her to the vet b/c she had funny poop and seemed puny - she did a fecal.  She gave her ivo orally and the kid died late the next day.  She did a post and sheepishly explained what happened...
She was new to treating goats then, too.  Maybe the hook part of the worm caused a bigger 'hole' than a barberpole mouth can...but ever since then I've been against hitting them hard w/ the best thing first.

The day I stop learning from my goats will be the day they bury me, though...as soon as I think I 'know' something, the little buggers teach me different.


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## Ms. Research (Aug 28, 2011)

*The day I stop learning from my goats will be the day they bury me, though...as soon as I think I 'know' something, the little buggers teach me different.*

X2 on that thought.  Any animal for that matter.  

Rolls, I read that you use injectable dewormer.  I know you stated you didn't like the ingredients in the pour-on but is that the only reason?  I am tending to lean towards injectable as well because I think it gets into the animals system faster.     I plan on having goats as well as sheep, so I will definitely need to know about deworming my flock.  As well as a ton of other things.


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## freemotion (Aug 28, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> What are you mixing for a wormer Freemotion?


2 parts wormwood 
1 part garlic granules
1 part walnut hull powder
1 part stevia leaf

I mixed this with molasses and honey (ran out of molasses  ) and made balls by scooping out a generous Tablespoon and dividing it into three balls for each goat.  I rolled the balls in slippery elm powder and fed them each three balls a half hour before they got their grain.  I do this for three days straight.  If anyone is low FAMACHA-wise, they get it twice a day for three days and the red cell regimen.  

I tried skipping the slippery elm powder step last time when I couldn't find my bag of it and one doe refused to touch it.  I tried rolling hers in cornmeal and it worked for one dose.  Then I had to search for the slippery elm.....since it is tree bark, they just can't resist it.

I collected, dried, and powdered the walnut hulls from our black walnut trees.  I pick them green with an apple picking pole and remove the hulls by smashing them between two bricks.  I line my dehydrator trays with wax paper and break the hulls into small pieces and dry them, then powder them in the food processor.  Stored in a canning jar, it keeps quite well.  Smells lovely while drying.  Stains like crazy....wear OLD clothes!  It stained my hands through a double layer of rubber gloves!


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## Ms. Research (Aug 28, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> kstaven said:
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Freemotion:  How long have you been using this method of oral wormer? Amazing that you can make it yourself.   Sorry City Girl mentality shining thru.   I know you've probably posted your success rate in other threads (battling nasty worms or keeping them at bay) but am curious.  I' ve read a little about your Herbal vs Chemical but still working on rapping my head around caring for livestock.  Have never experienced that.  As I stated above, think injections are faster but will to learn about herbal remedies.


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## Roll farms (Aug 28, 2011)

I use injectable, but for the most part I give it orally.  I've had better success treating lung worm w/ it injected, about equal results for mites by injecting or orally, but it works better on other worms given orally, in our experience here.

Other than folks' experience posted at BYH, I know nothing about using the pour on as a drench.  I've just never read anything 'good' about giving it orally from any of the university studies, I've seen the MSDS for both ivo and cydectin pour-on, and if I can save more $ by buying the injectable (higher concentration of active ingredient = you give them less that way) then that's just more reason to buy the injectable, for me.  

BUT...I'm a firm believer in to each their own, whatever works for you, etc. etc... 
I also believe that you have to be open to new things and keep learning...

I (sorta) know what is working (for now) here so I'll just stick w/ it and keep reading / absorbing for when it stops and I gotta go on to the next thing.


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## freemotion (Aug 28, 2011)

I got a rescued pregnant dairy goat three years ago and she was at death's door.  We lost her baby after a long battle with pneumonia.  I ended up doing lots of online research and ended up on byc and then here.  I was an equine professional most of my adult life and never even heard of herbal dewormers.....but goats are different from any other domestic animal, it seems! 

I got a used (but super nice!) microscope and supplies and learned to do my own fecal exams so I could see what works here.  It has been two years of using herbals now.  I started with Molly's Herbals system and that really worked for me with the exception of the above doe.  I still had to turn to Ivomec drenches with her, and once with a new buckling I bought for breeding.  The stress of moving him along with weaning probably caused the bloom.

My goats have access to black walnut leaves and eat  them in quantity in the fall when they come down...they tend to come down overnight at the first good frost.  I get free pumpkins by the hundreds after Nov 1 and they get a lot of them along with the seeds on a twice daily basis as part of their feed until they are all used up, usually 2-4 months depending on how they keep.  I'm sure both of those things do some deworming naturally.

Last year when the herbal didn't work enough on the one doe I followed up with Ivomec, this year I'm experimenting with the double dose regimen and it is working so far.

I bought wormwood seed this spring but two attempts at getting them to germinate have failed so far.  I will try again in Sept to see if fall planting works better.  If not, I'll try to locate plants in the spring to get them established.  Various herbal remedies that got a bad reputation or were outlawed, such as comfrey, were the result of manufacturers using the wrong part of the plant or harvesting at the wrong stage of growth.  I prefer the safety of growing or wildcrafting my own whenever possible.  I hope to establish the wormwood both in my garden and let it go wild on my property.

My formula is based on Molly's ingredients except I couldn't find fennel so I just skipped it.  I'd add one part fennel if I could find it.  The wormwood and black walnut are the key ingredients.  This formula is not for pregnant animals.  There is NO withdrawal time and it does not flavor the milk.


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## Ms. Research (Aug 28, 2011)

Thank you Rolls and Freemotion for your explanations and your very sound advise.  The herbal remedy that you posted Freemotion is very interesting and my Better Half will be interested in seeing this.  He's been into herbal remedies for years and did very well in assisting the doctors with our son's harsh chemo treatment (unfortunately it has to be that way) with his herbal knowledge.  Know about the bad rep of herbs with chemo.  But my Husband successfully proved that using herbal remedies could help chemo patients deal with the chemo.   Plus he's got my "woman" issues straight with herbal remedies as well.  I think he did it for himself.   PMS truly hits hard here. 

Since I homeschooled, I do have a very good microscope.  Plus we haven't really started looking for where our future farm will be, so still have ways to go on what to plant or what we will have in our area.  But I always say, the more I know, the better to make decisions.  

Thanks both again for taking the time to reply.


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## freemotion (Aug 28, 2011)

A new farm and animals can be very overwhelming, so I'd suggest that if possible, you find someone with goats that you can collect some fresh berries from and learn to run fecals.  I'm sure there is someone out there who would love to get free exams done while you learn.  The learning curve is pretty quick, actually.  You can see a lot on those slides and they are pretty clear.  The more you experience now, the easier it will be.

Trust me when I say that research and reading is important, but rarely prepares you for real life!  Not like doing will.  So get out there with a sandwich bag in your pocket and follow a goat around the field for a couple of hours.....


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## Ms. Research (Aug 28, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> A new farm and animals can be very overwhelming, so I'd suggest that if possible, you find someone with goats that you can collect some fresh berries from and learn to run fecals.  I'm sure there is someone out there who would love to get free exams done while you learn.  The learning curve is pretty quick, actually.  You can see a lot on those slides and they are pretty clear.  The more you experience now, the easier it will be.
> 
> Trust me when I say that research and reading is important, but rarely prepares you for real life!  Not like doing will.  So get out there with a sandwich bag in your pocket and follow a goat around the field for a couple of hours.....


Agree about research/reading vs real life experience.   Looking into getting real life experience, but it;s good to do the research/reading first before trying those real life experience.   At least you will be a little aware of what the real life experience should be.  Considering livestock is very different than a domestic animal like dogs or cats.


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## redtailgal (Aug 28, 2011)

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## Roll farms (Aug 28, 2011)

B vitamin should help perk him up and increase his appetite.  I'd give 1cc per 5-10# to a puny kid.

I've been trying to deworm on an empty stomach...Read it's more effective that way.  Just tossing that out there as an afterthought / something to keep in mind.

A goat who won't eat isn't 'right'...so you should worry.  I wouldn't FREAK OUT just yet, but def. be aware / keep an eye on him / give him B shot.  IM.  Butt cheek.
eta: giving him some orally would be better than none at all, if you're afraid to shoot him in the butt.  I'd double the dose orally.


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## redtailgal (Aug 28, 2011)

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## redtailgal (Aug 28, 2011)

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## elevan (Aug 28, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> And on the Red Cell:  I dose at 6ml per 20-30# every 8 hrs for 24 hrs then 1x weekly until better.


RTG - just a reminder that after the first day you go to 1x WEEKLY (not daily) until he reaches FAMACHA-3.  It may take a few weeks to get to F-3 and if you were to give the Red Cell daily until then you could overdose on certain minerals/vitamins.


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## Roll farms (Aug 28, 2011)

You can do it!

I have had a 'movie of the week' sort-of life, I understand what you're saying.  It's hard always having to be the 'strong' one.


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## redtailgal (Aug 28, 2011)

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## elevan (Aug 28, 2011)

You CAN do this!

I second the B shot too.


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## freemotion (Aug 28, 2011)

redtailgal, it is not unreasonable for you to be having this reaction to giving injections.  Your body remembers the trauma of Hoover dying as much as your mind and heart does....hence the nausea and stress.  A little story:  When I was a teen, a neighborhood kid (Kevin) and I fenced a field together to keep our ponies in because neither of us had enough pasture at home and a third neighbor let us use his field just so he could enjoy looking at the horses without any expense.  We used electric wire and a charger in a box hooked up to a car battery.  The box was on the ground and you had to lift the door up to turn it on and off.

One day Kevin and I went to do some fence maintenance, using a scythe to cut the tall grass along the fence line that was grounding out the wire.  Kevin,  then around 12 but a sturdy rural lad, had the scythe in his hands as I knelt down to shut the fencer off.  He took a practice swing.  The tip of the blade caught the wire and directed the full force of that swing, and the tip of the blade, right into my face.  Fortunately for my life and my sight, it hit the bone just above my left eye and picked my up and flipped me over.

I got stitches and was fine.  However, the next day when I went to put my horse in the field, I knelt down to open that box.  As I reached for the door, some unseen force picked me up and flung me over.  It was days before I could open that box without being flipped, and weeks before I stopped jerking every time I touched it.

So yes, your reaction to giving any injection sounds perfectly normal to me.  Your body remembers.  You can't intellectualize it away.  It will take time to heal  this, but only by doing it will you heal.  Expect to have a very strong reaction for a while.  I loved Hoover and that was only because of pictures on a computer screen and your stories.  I can only imagine how much you loved him.  

Here's a


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## redtailgal (Aug 28, 2011)

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## redtailgal (Aug 29, 2011)

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## redtailgal (Aug 29, 2011)

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## elevan (Aug 29, 2011)

7-10 days out.


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## Roll farms (Aug 29, 2011)

That B vitamin stuff is the bomb.  Glad he's feeling better and you both survived.  I had faith in ya.


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## redtailgal (Aug 29, 2011)

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## redtailgal (Aug 30, 2011)

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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 30, 2011)

what are their weights?


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## redtailgal (Aug 30, 2011)

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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 30, 2011)

Personally, I would up their grain, In all honesty ours at that size would be getting around 4 1/2 measuring cups divided into two feedings a day.   Perhaps you could do something in between what you are doing now and that amount. Maybe working up to 3 cups of grain a day, divided into two feedings, atleast for a while until you think they have a little better finish on them. The increased protein will also help the one goat recover from the anemia. 


they will put some of that weight back on faster than you think, you know like when you are sick and loose weight and then seem to always beable to gain it back right away. But it will take time for them to get the overall finish back.


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## redtailgal (Aug 30, 2011)

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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 30, 2011)

I know that is a lot, yes, I realized they are whethers and are pets.  hence the reason why I said, probably something in between what you are doing know and what we feed.  And that was per goat, not total for both of them. And the 4 1/2 cups isn't the highest amount that we feed. we often feed our growing out show whethers at around 50lbs of weight closer to 6 cups a day. I realize longevity isn't on our list of concerns. MY son's show whethers were getting near 4lbs each a day a total of 12 cups of grain a day for the last  few weeks before the show. 

I realize your long term worries for UC.  I was thinking short term to help them get some condition back on, may be 4 to 6 weeks.  

I know it goes against everything you hear.  Our bucklings that we keep for  future breeding, may receive 6 to 9 cups of feed a day depending on their age and size for the first 18 months of or so. No, I am not making that up. 

Now Wouldn't I feel like total crap, if you increased their feed and a month later they got UC.  

My opinion you could go up some on the grain for a while any way.  Add another 1/4 teaspoon of ammonia choride to their feed every few days per whether. 

We have had one whether get UC at  4 months of age a few years ago. 

You wont hurt my feelings if you aren't comfortable with it.  Maybe just increase their feed up to 2 cups a day. But I like dividing the feedings up into two feedings. I feel young kids grow better with a morning feeding and an evening feeding.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 30, 2011)

I agree the sunshine and the grazing is good for them, laying all day in the barn by the hay manger is not healthy. good way to get pnuemonia.   

They will slowly improve on good pasture,but very slowly with out a little more grain.  I was thinking more increased protein to help build the red blood cells back up. 

Farming can  really be a very emotional experience.  Almost exhausting sometimes just from worrying about what is the right thing to do for them. 

Good luck on your decision.


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## redtailgal (Aug 30, 2011)

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## Roll farms (Aug 30, 2011)

I would gradually increase his NG up to 1.5 cups, then 2 cups, then back down to 1.5 cups if he starts getting too porky.  Keep him at 2c if he maintains ok.  I keep an eye on their condition and adjust accordingly.  A 1/4 c of calf manna will help the anemia and put weight back on him.  Start gradually, don't wanna scour him.  Boss is good, too.

Our adult dairy bucks get roughly 2-3c of feed (depending on how old they are - a yearling gets 2, the 5 yr old gets 3) 2x a day (plus hay), but they don't have much to browse.   If they did, they'd get half that amount and only half the hay they get now, in only one feeding.

I think you're right to keep them at one feeding until the browse quality (and protein content) decreases.  Then go to 2 feedings a day when there's no 'good stuff' left this winter.

Right now I'm splitting only 1 gallon scoop of feed, and 2 flakes of hay between 20 does in the main pen, 2x a day, to encourage them to GO OUT AND GRAZE, for Pete's sake.  That's about 1/3 of what they get in winter, grain-wise, and about 1/4 of what they'd get hay-wise.


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