# U.S. war on pigs?



## Harbisgirl (Dec 30, 2012)

A ranch nearby posted this on facebook. Its very scary! I'm in California but it's only a matter of time. If I understand correctly, 21 states are poised to initiate similar legislation. I've been considering getting a few American Guinea Hogs but they would also fall under the criteria of an "invasive species," according to the DNR of MI. Imagine that, a rage HERITAGE breed considered invasive.

The DNR in Michigan has made a case against hog farmers and stated that any hog that has particular traits, such as a curly tail, is considered an "invasive species." Several farmers in Michigan have already killed their hogs; there is a FELONY charge for having them, and a fine for each hog they continue to keep. Mark has taken it to court, but is now unable to have his hogs processed and/or move them out of state because of the DNR. He's waiting for a final ruling, but the DNR has had the case postponed until next summer. He now has many, many hogs (he can't do anything with them because the state won't allow it) that he cannot afford to feed. He had been selling his pork to chefs in Chicago, but because of the DNR, he now has no income. Please view. This will have more of an impact across the country than many of us perceive at this time. It is being closely watched. 

Here is a video of the poor guy in Michigan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3qZLMqvRAo

Some followup info:
http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/michigan-swine-iso.htm 

Another very sad instance:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/the-happy-homesteader/michigan-begins-heritage-hog-slaughter.aspx


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 30, 2012)

I'm starting to think the government should be considered "invasive". Not pigs.


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## LadyIsabelle2011 (Dec 30, 2012)

Ugh, that is just ridiculous. Somebody trying to stand up for their way of life and it is like the government is punishing him for it. I sure hope he wins that case, cause this is more than little ridiculous.


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 30, 2012)

Although the curly tail thing could easily be "taken care of" Dobie style   Can't have a curly tail if you don't have one........... I can't believe they use COLOR to decide. That is beyond lame. Also can be taken care of, L'oreal style... LOL  Still trying to wrap my brain around how a "rare" breed could be considered "invasive"?  Two completely contradictory terms. I wish the ALBC would jump in on this one.


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## greybeard (Dec 30, 2012)

When you've planted 40 acres of winter forage, got a good stand up after a horrible drought year, only to have 20 acres of it destroyed in a singe night like I did,, you may re-think things. 
4 million of the things in the US, with 2 million here in Texas.

My sig also refers to an invasive species, that lots of folks thought was a great tree to plant in their yard--till the yard disappeared under a canopy of the dang things.


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## BrownSheep (Dec 30, 2012)

If they want to fine people who pigs have indeed gone feral FINE, but to effectively eradicate heritage breeds like that...


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## greybeard (Dec 30, 2012)

You really think a single person will ever admit it's their pig?

Cow or hog gets out now--car hits it damage or death occurs:
"Mine? Nope, not mine officer--never seen that animal before in my life--somebody musta put my brand on it illegally"


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 30, 2012)

They won't outlaw GMO's and those could contaminate the whole entire earth's forage and crops. But they will outlaw heritage pigs. Hmmm, somehow I don't think the priorities are in order. It would make more sense to actually take care of "feral" hogs, not ones that actually belong to people. If you're going to go the route of having gov't but in every time something "might" cause a problem you may as well just outlaw everything. Perhaps deer should be outlawed since they cause accidents on the road. Hmm, someone's goat might get out and cause an accident let's outlaw goats. On that note, perhaps all dogs should be outlawed because of a few coyotes and coy dogs that may pose a problem or because an idiot here and there doesn't follow the leash law and they destroy someone's livestock. Sorry for the loss of your acreage, but I highly doubt that was a backyard farmer raising heritage hogs that just happened to get out and destroy your plants in one night. If half the problem is in TX then perhaps TX should pass a law concerning feral  not "heritage" pigs or the farmer's CONTROL of their heritage pigs and their containment. Perhaps a law stating they all must have nose rings to prevent excessive destruction if they do happen to get out and branding with permanent ID so the farmer might be held accountable for damage. I don't see someone "stealing another farmer's ID to frame their pig" as being a big problem lol.  I don't see the point in taking someone's actual pigs on their farm that are inside their containment though "just in case". Oh lets let all pigs live inside a crate that they can't even turn around in because that is better. I believe insurance may cover your loss and the loss of anything else that may occur from a stray animal or more anyways. Perhaps that should be looked into. Or, you could limit the number of these pigs a farmer could have at one time. If the farmer goes over then some must be sent to slaughter. There are plenty of ways to go about it without eliminating heritage breed pigs. They wouldn't even let the guy in the article send his pigs to slaughter. Ridiculous. Government hard at work.


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## alsea1 (Dec 30, 2012)

Our nation is going to implode with all this stupid legislation.


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## Royd Wood (Dec 30, 2012)

I posted this a while back and I think it got removed due to political comments


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## bonbean01 (Dec 30, 2012)

Yes, it is political...however, good information for people looking into raising pigs.  Hubby wants to get some young pigs this spring and looking into all the aspects of it, including State laws is a good thing.

Personally...I don't care to raise pigs...but if he buys me more lambs, I'll be more agreeable


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## Royd Wood (Dec 30, 2012)

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> Yes, it is political...however, good information for people looking into raising pigs.  Hubby wants to get some young pigs this spring and looking into all the aspects of it, including State laws is a good thing.
> 
> Personally...I don't care to raise pigs...but if he buys me more lambs, I'll be more agreeable


Its not good information when they keep moving the goal posts - just get used to the fact that the population worldwide are starting to ask questions about where their food is coming from, how its produced, animal welfare and at what cost to your health. They are not liking the answers so they start to look for alternative food ie local producers and farmers markets.
One of the biggest growing industries is local produced organic veg, fruit, dairy and meat outlets - dont forget industrial farming on any sort of scale is only 70 years old whereas local farming is thousands of years old and is fighting back by popular demand. 
You might not choose to believe this but there are companies and whole industries out there who are going to try and stop local farming at any length with any method available with the finacial clout.


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## kstaven (Dec 30, 2012)

Some industry players may try, but in the end people decide with their buying power. Cheap food got us into this mess and allowed it to swing to one extreme and a take over of the markets. Now we are seeing the edge of a return of that pendulum.


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## kstaven (Dec 30, 2012)

If one ever really looks at the criteria used for determining invasive species you would find politicians fit the bill.


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## Royd Wood (Dec 30, 2012)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Some industry players may try, but in the end people decide with their buying power. Cheap food got us into this mess and allowed it to swing to one extreme and a take over of the markets. Now we are seeing the edge of a return of that pendulum.


Thats the reason they will try and wipe out local farming as buying power only works with whats available esp with food


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 30, 2012)

So true Royd & Kstaven. What some people will compromise for a few dollars makes me sick. It's like that saying, only when the last tree is dead and the last morsel of food has gone past will people realize you can't breathe or eat a dollar bill. Don't think that is exact but it still gets the point across


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## kstaven (Dec 30, 2012)

Royd Wood said:
			
		

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That is also why there are so many underground groups out there. People will only be pushed so far before they don't care if the government and industry calls it illegal.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Dec 30, 2012)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Royd Wood said:
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## Royd Wood (Dec 30, 2012)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Royd Wood said:
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Well I've got my boxing gloves on and my stiff upper lip ready - as Churchill once said *"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"*
Slightly over the top but who knows whats ahead.
In Ontario we have the following rules
Pigs, beef cattle and sheep - no restrictions yet
Turkeys - 50 per year
Meat chickens 300 per year
Laying hens 100 per year
Raw milk - illigal to sell from farm


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## kstaven (Dec 30, 2012)

In BC almost everything is under government management now.

Quick way to turn otherwise law abiding citizens into rebels and criminals. Much the same effect as prohibition.


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## Harbisgirl (Dec 30, 2012)

I wonder what would have happened if the farmer would have told them to arrest him. Not that I would have the guts to, but interesting to see what would happen if this guy was arrested, to see what spin the media would put on this. Might have nipped it in the bud.


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## kstaven (Dec 30, 2012)

Harbisgirl said:
			
		

> I wonder what would have happened if the farmer would have told them to arrest him. Not that I would have the guts to, but interesting to see what would happen if this guy was arrested, to see what spin the media would put on this. Might have nipped it in the bud.


They would have arrested him and then played it up like he was some form of extremist nut. That is the usual scenario and game plan when this scenario plays out. Sad part is the public in general normally buys it without ever looking for the real story.


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## greybeard (Dec 31, 2012)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> They won't outlaw GMO's and those could contaminate the whole entire earth's forage and crops. But they will outlaw heritage pigs. Hmmm, somehow I don't think the priorities are in order. It would make more sense to actually take care of "feral" hogs, not ones that actually belong to people. If you're going to go the route of having gov't but in every time something "might" cause a problem you may as well just outlaw everything. Perhaps deer should be outlawed since they cause accidents on the road. Hmm, someone's goat might get out and cause an accident let's outlaw goats. On that note, perhaps all dogs should be outlawed because of a few coyotes and coy dogs that may pose a problem or because an idiot here and there doesn't follow the leash law and they destroy someone's livestock. Sorry for the loss of your acreage, but I highly doubt that was a backyard farmer raising heritage hogs that just happened to get out and destroy your plants in one night. If half the problem is in TX then perhaps TX should pass a law concerning feral  not "heritage" pigs or the farmer's CONTROL of their heritage pigs and their containment. Perhaps a law stating they all must have nose rings to prevent excessive destruction if they do happen to get out and branding with permanent ID so the farmer might be held accountable for damage. I don't see someone "stealing another farmer's ID to frame their pig" as being a big problem lol.  I don't see the point in taking someone's actual pigs on their farm that are inside their containment though "just in case". Oh lets let all pigs live inside a crate that they can't even turn around in because that is better. I believe insurance may cover your loss and the loss of anything else that may occur from a stray animal or more anyways. Perhaps that should be looked into. Or, you could limit the number of these pigs a farmer could have at one time. If the farmer goes over then some must be sent to slaughter. There are plenty of ways to go about it without eliminating heritage breed pigs. They wouldn't even let the guy in the article send his pigs to slaughter. Ridiculous. Government hard at work.


The genie is already out of the bottle concerning feral hogs in states affected by them--no law can control or eradicate them. Nose rings won't prevent them from reproducing. Year round open season, no limits, no restriction hunting doesn't make a dent in them, from New Mexico eastward to the Florida Atlantic coast and northward as far as Kentuky, Mo, the Carolinas. States are hunting them from helicopters, poisoning them, trying to sterilize them chemically--all to no avail. No fence will hold them out of yards, domestic hog production facilities or pastures and crops. Feral hogs are like the feral dogs we all have to worry about--they are domesticated animals that have escaped, became wild and reproduce in prodigious numbers year round. 
I'm not saying everything about the heritage swine law is good, and I hate govt regulation and interference as much as anyone, but any state that takes measures to prevent the establishment of a feral hog population is making a  move in the right direction.  
(and if anyone is getting their view on feral hogs from any of the TV "reality" shows, forget it. They're all bunk.)


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## animalfarm (Dec 31, 2012)

Do what you can to support the farmers under attack until they get their day in court. The best line of defence is to stop it before it reaches you. We have been warned; the Michigan farmers were smacked in the head when they weren't looking and it isn't just about pigs in the long run.

Greybeard, have they tried putting bounties on feral hogs in Texas? With the rampant unemployment going on, a $1.00  a pig could add up to a pretty good paycheck for some.  

The Michigan DNR isn't trying to stop feral hogs from happening; thats just a smoke screen. Follow the money trail and the real culprit rears its ugly head.


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## greybeard (Dec 31, 2012)

I live in Texas. What rampant unemployment?

No bounties that I am aware of for feral hogs here. Historically, bounty programs have cost 10X in administrative costs what paid out bounties are.



> The best line of defence is to stop it before it reaches you. We have been warned.


Yep, you have been warned. I'm living in one of 39 US states adversely affected by feral hogs. Some northern states have heard the alarm and are listening and learning, like New York:
http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/70843.html

Other states are crying 'foul' and putting their heads in the sand. I don't believe in throwing babies out with the bathwater, but once the genie is out of the bottle, man ain't gonna put it back in no way no how. You have been warned.


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 31, 2012)

greybeard said:
			
		

> that's*satyrical said:
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Ick. That does suck graybeard. But I still don't think it should give the gov't the excuse to harass heritage hog farmers. My piggies stay in their pen just fine, come up for scratches, and their nose rings do the job (to an extent, really their feet do the most tearing up) for a while anyways though they may need to be replaced at some point. Have they established hog hunting season yet like a deer hunting season? Seems to work for keeping deer numbers down a little anyways. Perhaps they could make it so all boars must be altered except a select few that are kept for breeding. This would at least help prevent any escapees from breeding like wild fire. Spay/neuter programs worked pretty good for getting dog and cat numbers down although of course there still are quite a few. You said it above yourself, it's really too late to pass a law at this point for the wild hogs that are on the loose anyways. Why harass people with heritage hogs who aren't doing anything wrong? I wonder if they couldn't draw them into a certain area with a food type lure then harvest and slaughter.


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## alsea1 (Dec 31, 2012)

My husband would happily come hunt some wild hogs. Just let us know where they are.
But as far as the gov. moving in and not allowing a person to raise pigs or anything else I resent that.
Its just our governments way of taking yet more control over our lives.
Just say NO


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## greybeard (Dec 31, 2012)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> Ick. That does suck graybeard. But I still don't think it should give the gov't the excuse to harass heritage hog farmers. My piggies stay in their pen just fine, come up for scratches, and their nose rings do the job (to an extent, really their feet do the most tearing up) for a while anyways though they may need to be replaced at some point. Have they established hog hunting season yet like a deer hunting season? Seems to work for keeping deer numbers down a little anyways.


I guess I'm just not making myself clear. The State of Texas has gone way beyond establishing a season. The official State of Texas Parks and Wildlife policy is this (in a nutshell) :
There is no CLOSED season, there is no bag limit, there is no size or age limit on feral hogs in Texas and most other states where they have become a problem. There is no restriction on the way you kill them. They can be hunted by trapping, poisoning, shooting, knifing, drowning or anything else from 1 second after midnight Jan 1 to midnight December 31 with absolutely no restrictions other than you have to have a valid hunting lic and they don't really even care if you have that if you are on your own land or other private property with landowner permission. In the more western part of the state where the sorghum and cotton fields are, with clear visibility, the State has authorized the hunting of feral hogs from the air in helicopters. On public lands, such as state or National forests, you just have to have a valid hunting lic, but no other restrictions apply.  In short, the State wants them ALL dead-gone-eradicated-exterminated-extinct--whatever adjective you want to use. You don't even have to pick up the carcasses--game wardens say just leave em laying if you want to. WAR--kill 'em all is the official policy. And we are doing our best, but not making a dent in the overall population of feral hogs.  I am surrounded by 60,000 acres of Sam Houston National Forest. The hogs descend out of that forest by night and day on to my place wreaking havoc in pasture, yard, and gardens with impunity, and it's not like I haven't tried to fence them out. They'll run right thru a woven hog wire fence or barbed wire fence at a dead run and never even squeal. Electric? Not a chance. Won't even phase them.  I've had good dogs gutted from front to rear in less than a minute--20 ft from my front steps.  They don't just eat the grass in the pasture--they root it up looking for roots, rhizomes, bugs and worms and you'd swear someone came in with a 6' power tiller behind a 50 hp tractor during the night and built a big garden where your hayfield used to be.  They tear into chicken coops and pens, into domestic hog pens and pastures and it is virtually impossible to keep them out and domestic hogs in. They have no natural enemy other than man, and travel in herds of 10-40. They are eatin machines and have fear of nothing but man, and not even much of that. A 2 million strong and constantly growing population. 
They are a menace beyond description and believe me you do NOT want them around. 



			
				that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> Perhaps they could make it so all boars must be altered except a select few that are kept for breeding. This would at least help prevent any escapees from breeding like wild fire. Spay/neuter programs worked pretty good for getting dog and cat numbers down although of course there still are quite a few. You said it above yourself, it's really too late to pass a law at this point for the wild hogs that are on the loose anyways. Why harass people with heritage hogs who aren't doing anything wrong? I wonder if they couldn't draw them into a certain area with a food type lure then harvest and slaughter.


The feral hog population in Texas, La, Miss, Ga and other states began as heritage and other domestic hogs that escaped their owners. This is a pig forum--you folks know the breeding cycle and age of breeding already. Do the math. Think it can't or won't happen where you live? It probably already has begun and you just don't realize the extent of it. Don't have them yet? You better pray like hades you never do. 
I don't want to offend anyone, and again, I hate regulations and nosey officials with a passion,  but we here in the lower part of the US have already been where ya'll are now. We didn't know-we just didn't... how could we? and now-- it's too late--For us. Learn from us.


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 31, 2012)

Wow, no I really had no idea. At all. But there must be something that could be done. A law is obviously a day late & a dollar short. A national guard, for pig hunting in overrun states??? lol  I still like my idea of a large bait & slaughter. Everyone loves bacon. Use the sales of the pig meat to help pay for more bait & slaughter.


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## greybeard (Dec 31, 2012)

Feral hogs are extremely lean meat--very little if any fat. Not enough to make bacon, but most people do  make sausage, by mixing retail ground pork fat with feral hog meat. 
Most of them yield pork chops with a center about the size of a small cell phone. Itsy bitsy.

A few restraunts have carried feral hog on thier menus--the meat has a distinctive taste--not bad, just different. 
As far as I know tho, because of disease cross contamination risks, there are only 2 facilities in all of Texas that can process feral hog meat for resale. Been awhile (12 months) since I looked into that, and the law may have changed.


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## animalfarm (Dec 31, 2012)

I didn't make myself clear. I do not support the actions of the Michigan DNR and its the heritage pig farmers who should be supported until their day in court.

 However, I have seen the damage done by the wild pigs in Texas, and I have seen and read about the costs associated with the damage they do. Therefore, even though a bounty program costs a lot of dollars to administer, one should never-the-less be set up if the issue is that severe and or that important. 

The money being spent to harass a Michigan pig farmer, or a raw milk dairy, or any number of other small farm operations is money that should be spent solving existing problems such as feral pigs, but since the powers that be don't give a flying hoot about pigs rooting up the fields,  its never going to happen. Even if Texas is well employed, if there is a bounty,  feral pigs will be eradicated.  Not enough pigs are being hunted for the sheer joy of the kill, but add a $ value to that kill and its game over. Its human nature. Greed will do what cannot be done for free.  The Michigan DNR fiasco has more to to with eliminating competition and choice then with eliminating a potential feral pig problem. Smoke and mirrors.


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## that's*satyrical (Dec 31, 2012)

greybeard said:
			
		

> Feral hogs are extremely lean meat--very little if any fat. Not enough to make bacon, but most people do  make sausage, by mixing retail ground pork fat with feral hog meat.
> Most of them yield pork chops with a center about the size of a small cell phone. Itsy bitsy.
> 
> A few restraunts have carried feral hog on thier menus--the meat has a distinctive taste--not bad, just different.
> As far as I know tho, because of disease cross contamination risks, there are only 2 facilities in all of Texas that can process feral hog meat for resale. Been awhile (12 months) since I looked into that, and the law may have changed.


Dog & cat food. They ain't picky.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Dec 31, 2012)

alsea1 said:
			
		

> My husband would happily come hunt some wild hogs. Just let us know where they are.
> But as far as the gov. moving in and not allowing a person to raise pigs or anything else I resent that.
> Its just our governments way of taking yet more control over our lives.
> Just say NO


*
X2.*


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## greybeard (Jan 1, 2013)

animalfarm said:
			
		

> I didn't make myself clear. I do not support the actions of the Michigan DNR and its the heritage pig farmers who should be supported until their day in court.
> 
> However, I have seen the damage done by the wild pigs in Texas, and I have seen and read about the costs associated with the damage they do. Therefore, even though a bounty program costs a lot of dollars to administer, one should never-the-less be set up if the issue is that severe and or that important.
> 
> The money being spent to harass a Michigan pig farmer, or a raw milk dairy, or any number of other small farm operations is money that should be spent solving existing problems such as feral pigs, but since the powers that be don't give a flying hoot about pigs rooting up the fields,  its never going to happen. Even if Texas is well employed, if there is a bounty,  feral pigs will be eradicated.  Not enough pigs are being hunted for the sheer joy of the kill, but add a $ value to that kill and its game over. Its human nature. Greed will do what cannot be done for free.  The Michigan DNR fiasco has more to to with eliminating competition and choice then with eliminating a potential feral pig problem. Smoke and mirrors.


You have any empirical evidence in the form of studies or quantitative evidence to back that statement up? 

There are currently about 15 counties in Texas offering bounties on hogs ranging anywhere from $2-$15 per tail brought in. They have killed a lot of hogs in those counties, but records show that no more were killed than in years without bounties. With every landowner and every hunter interested in killing hogs already killing every one they see, a bounty does virtually nothing in regards to increasing the #s killed or the total #s in population.  Studies in areas all over the south that have instituted bounty programs show negative results in decreasing the overall number of hogs or the density of the population/acre or sq mile.  It's not lack of guns or hunters that is the problem. It's the animal itself.

1. A prolific breeder, at a very young age.
2. High litter capacity. (If they just had 1 offspring/breeding cycle it would be easy)
3. Extremely proficient at detecting human or canine presence because of acute hearing and smell senses. 
4 Feral hogs avoid areas where they have been previously hunted and trapped. NEVER shoot one while it's in your trap. That trap will be of little use to you for a long time afterwards. 

Here's the official results of a hog eradication program tried in Georgia a few years ago on 737 sq km Fort Benning. Two scenarios were suggested.

Origins of the Bounty Program
►In early 2007, resource managers 
suggested hiring contractors or permanent 
staff for the sole purpose of removing pigs.
►A group of influential hunters advanced the 
idea of a bounty program. 
►Argued that a bounty program would be 
more cost effective than hiring contractors.

The bounty program was chosen as a test vehicle on 2 sections of the military base.
south section contained 3500 hetacres.
north section contained 3700 hetacres

Visual and electronic samplings were taken in each area during the bounty trial  to determine if the hunting trapping was going according to plan--(are populations decreasing or increasing?) 
 Aurburn University was asked to evaluate the effectiveness of the program.
A bounty of $25 for each pig the first 6 months of the program was raised to $40 per animal after the first 6 months. 
A canvass was done before the program started, and they established that there was from 1.07 to 1.92 hogs per sq km in the 2 selected bounty areas. 1.07 was chosen as the official density baseline population.
Corral and box traps were allowed.
Day and night hunting (guns) was allowed. (24/7)
Baiting with military mess hall slop and govt provided corn was provided to 2000 hunters and trappers. All had to go thru qualification testing before allowed to enter the program. 
The base resources management provided the participants with $5000 worth of corral traps, 40 tons of corn. 10,000 lbs of mess hall slop were used every 6 months as bait.
Basically, the hunters and trappers simply had to provide guns and ammo as well as personal  transportation.

Auburn reported the results are as follows:

Baseline density ------------ ------------ --------- ------- ------- ----------- 1.07 hogs/sq km
After 6 months 1022 hog tails turned in----- ------- ----------- --------/\1.15 hogs/sq km
after 18 months 2685 hog tails turned in------ ------- --------- -------/\1.97 hogs/sq km

Approx 2685 hogs killed or trapped and the end result was an increase in hog population--not a decrease.
Univ of Auburn Summary:
Summary
►Two thirds of harvested pigs were reported 
to have been killed while hunting.
►Most pigs were reported to have been killed 
during the day.
►Few pigs killed during deer and turkey 
seasons.
►Very few tagged pigs killed.
►Increasing population density.

Cost per hog killed?
Cost Per Pig
►Including amount paid for tails:
 $32.50 per tail--$87,262.
►With money spent on traps and bait:
 $40.45 per tail--$108,608:
►Law Enforcement-unknown
►Administrative Costs-not disclosed

Recommendation by Auburn:
Recommendations
►Avoid bounty programs.
►Avoid extreme bait usage.
►Where implemented: stress internal control, 
avoid staff participation.



It's not just that hogs are heavy breeders and have great senses. Their natural habitat and low profile allows them to go where humans cannot in southern forests full of vines, thickets, briars and other brush. Hogs are omnivores--they eat anything available. They're both daylight and night active and comfortable with either. The National forest 185 ft from my front door is typical of East Texas and most southern forests. Even now, with 90% of the foliage gone, I cannot see more than 15-20' into the forest at the most--it's every bit as thick as a tropical rainforest. A hog paradise and a hunter/hiker nightmare.
Walking thru it is a job in itself. I shoot hogs and nothing else on my property. Goin into that tanglefoot out there is a different story. Not worth it for any amount of bounty to me and most of the lifelong residents around here.


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## animalfarm (Jan 1, 2013)

Greybeard,

That was a very informative post. Thanks. I can see many flaws with what was put in place, as did the people evaluating the program, but its easy to be an armchair general so that is as far as I care to comment at this point.


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## greybeard (Jan 1, 2013)

Actually, it wasn't regulated enough. Fraud quickly crept into the program, which is why it was ended. Yep, that 'greed' thing you spoke of. But greed in this time also brings laziness. Why go sloughing thru a thicket day and night when you can just go to a processor and either openly or covertly make a deal to buy pig tails for a few $ ea and turn those tails in for a $40 bounty each? (that's why there was an entry for Law Enforcement costs, which Auburn Univ was unable to determine the extent of). But, the article said they expect the amt of fraud was probably less than 2% of the total payout of bounties.  

One of the primary reasons for the amt of regs they had to put in place was because of the location and security concerns. Fort Benning US Army base. Fort Benning definitely needed the hogs gone, as they were interfering with training operations and vehicular traffic as well as setting off numerous alarms in very sensitive areas every night. "Is some terrorist group breaking into the ordinance bunkers at 2am or is it just another hog herd?" That got old quick.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2013)

This is very interesting thread.

I kind of see both sides here.  I live in N.C and we have a feral hog problem as well.  The first wild hogs were introduced purposely in the mountains for hunting.  They were true European wild boars.  But, the bigger problem I think is domesticated hogs getting loose and turning feral.  I think NC is now #2 for hog production in country.

As far as the laws in MI, too often I think we see laws made in an effort to "do something" whether or not it will help the situation or not.  I won't say anything else about that.

The reason I think that focusing on a specific breed will not do any good is  that you could release hogs from a commercial farm (usually a cross of Yorkshire, Duroc, Hampshire, etc maybe 6 different breeds the companies all have there own special mix) and in 2 generations they would look completely different and be completely wild.  Hogs are not native to N. America so any variety of hog is going to be invasive.

For the people suggesting you can eradicate, I agree with Greybeard, "won't work".  They tried out west for many years to eradicate Coyotes and that didn't work.

We now have a coyote problem in N.C,  They are not native. How did they get here?  Some say natural migration.  Funny, they didn't migrate for a million years.

No, the boys around here like to fox hunt with hounds. So we have some land owners who build "fox pens". They fence in a large track of land and capture and put in foxes.  You pay X$ per hound to 
train your dogs.

Well some thought if foxes were good, coyotes would be much better.  Some got out.

We now have a 365 day per year, no limit, no restriction coyote season.  They just allowed night hunting.  Big controversy with that.  Seem we have some Red Wolves in the Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge and a couple in surrounding counties have been shot.  So, the verdict is out on night time Coyote shooting.

That's what I meant earlier about good intentions.  The biggest threat to Red Wolves isn't a couple being accidently shot.  It's cross breeding with Coyotes.


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