# What is happening to our babies?!



## Ariel301 (Mar 30, 2010)

My mini-Mancha doe, Bonnie gave birth last night to a single stillborn doeling. This is the second stillbirth we have had happen exactly the same way, and I want to figure out what is going on, but there is not a vet around here that treats goats, and we are really short on money. Maybe some people on here will have some insight.

Neither doe showed any signs of illness or distress before kidding. The first doe, Gracee, gave birth to triplets while we were not home, all three were born dead with no hair, but otherwise perfect. She did not fill her udder until two days after having the babies. She had them a week overdue. Bonnie was due on the first of April. She filled her udder overnight 24 hours before giving birth. It isn't very full though, just a little bit. I'm not sure if that is only because she is a first freshener or if it should have been more full but something went wrong. It seems small even for a first timer, in my opinion, especially since she comes from bloodlines where the does have huge udders. I found her this morning acting like she was in labor, and having trouble--she was screaming and bleeding and pushing but nothing was coming out--so I tried to help her...and realized there were no kids in there, only afterbirth. I found the kid buried under some hay in a corner of the kidding stall. Again, everything looked perfect except that it had no hair. It did not look underdeveloped at all, except for the hair. We had one other doe who shared a pen with them and ate the same food who delivered two perfectly healthy and enormous bucklings. I would think if she was in with two that were sick or on bad feed, she would have had problems too. 

Both goats have been eating all the alfalfa/bermuda mix hay they want, plus a little sweet feed towards the end of pregnancy. Gracee was really thin and also old, and so I just attributed her loss to that--she just didn't have enough reserves in her to grow the babies right. But Bonnie is in great condition, maybe even a little fat. 

A friend of mine told me that someone she knows that lives in our town had a ton of stillbirths one year and found out it was because there was arsenic in their well water. We are on city water, so I would hope that it is fine (especially since we drink it!) but do you think I should get it tested? I'm extremely limited on funds since I have been unemployed for 14 months, so I have to avoid spending money on anything so I can keep affording feed! 

What might be causing this?


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## cmjust0 (Mar 30, 2010)

Sounds like iodine deficiency..

Where are you located?  I've read before that the Northern and Northeast states are pretty deficient in iodine..  If your does were eating mostly hay with little supplementation of bagged feed up until late in pregnancy...and if the hay was grown in iodine-deficient soils...could be worth looking into.

Sorry to hear of the losses..  

ETA -- Did any of the aborted fetuses seem to have goiters or any kind of enlargements or 'knots' on their throats under their chins, by any chance?


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## Ariel301 (Mar 30, 2010)

Iodine deficiency...hmm. I'll check into that.

They've been eating hay that was grown in Utah, and I live in northwest Arizona. I don't know if we have a tendency towards iodine deficiency here, but it's a good question to research, certainly. I found out from the healthy set of kids that we don't have enough selenium...they came out with crooked legs that cleared up when I gave them some BoSe. The grain is just sweet feed meant for horses, I don't know anything about its iodine content. The goats also have free access to a mineral/salt block meant for goats (no one around here sells the loose minerals so we have to use the block, I know a lot of people advocate the loose ones over blocks though). 

The kids looked perfectly normal besides not having hair. No goiters or any other obvious abnormalities inside or out. (I opened them up and did sort of a field necropsy on them myself to see if I found anything wrong)


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## ksalvagno (Mar 30, 2010)

How about Leptospirosis? That can cause abortion. There is a vaccine for it but has to be given every 6 months.


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## Ariel301 (Mar 30, 2010)

Is there a way to test for that? I'd probably have to mail samples to a lab somewhere, the local vets don't treat goats and don't know anything about them.

I am also really wondering about copper deficiency.


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## ksalvagno (Mar 30, 2010)

Unfortunately, you would need to do a necropsy on the kids and blood tests on the moms to really find out what is going on. Unfortunately it could be so many things but obviously it is in both goats. Definitely could be a deficiency or could be Lepto.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 30, 2010)

The fact that they're full term and hairless, to me, is what suggests the iodine deficiency..  The fact that they've pretty much been strictly on hay until they began to recieve a little bit of sweetfeed in late pregnancy..and the fact that they've been on a mineral _block_ versus _loose_ mineral...kinda add to my suspicion..

I'm not saying you did anything _wrong_...please understand that..  ..all I'm saying is that their diet is primarily hay with little supplementation and they're probably not utilizing as much mineral as they maybe should be..  If it happens that the soil in which the hay was grown was iodine deficient, it would make perfect sense.

I've looked and looked but I can't find much about Utah's iodine levels..  If I were you, I'd consider trying to figure out where in Utah the hay was being grown, and place a call to that county's extension agent for further inquiry..  Ya never know...the ext. agent may say "Oh yeah, we're way deficient here!"



FWIW, if it were Lepto, it wouldn't explain the hairlessness and I would personally expect that you'd have seen at least one of the does display some clinical signs herself..  Anorexia, anemia, hemoglobinuria (red pee), depression, fever -- all clinical signs of Lepto.


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## MissDanni (Mar 30, 2010)

First of all I know nothing about goats.

But I was wondering, is it the same male that bred both females that had troubles?

Could that be an issue?


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## Ariel301 (Mar 30, 2010)

I will look into the hay for certain. We are going to buy a new load of hay and throw out what we have left of this one, just to be certain it wasn't a toxin in the feed. We do have a beetle around here  known to live in alfalfa that can cause poisoning and death in horses, I don't know about goats. We found that out when we lost our horse because of it. 

It was the same buck that bred both does, and also the third one who had two healthy boys. He is a healthy yearling (don't know if his young age could cause this, but I can't imagine it would), doesn't show any sign of any illness. After Gracee aborted I gave her and him both antibiotics since he was penned in the kidding stall with Gracee to keep her calm. (She doesn't like being away from him)  

Gracee did have some red pee and a lot more discomfort than usual after kidding. I attributed it to her having a hard delivery though; she seemed in a lot of pain, bled a lot for a few days after, and when I found her only a couple of hours at most after kidding, her cervix was already closed up tight--I'm thinking it never fully dilated. She ate less than usual for a couple of weeks after too. But she had no fever. So I can't rule out leptospirosis, I think. I'll call around and see if anyone around here knows where I can get her blood tested, and what it would cost. I would also like to check them on copper too, if I can find a place to do the testing and I can afford it. 

I wish the feed store here had a loose mineral, but they don't. Would crushing up the block into a powder be a good idea? I can certainly do that if it would help. 

Also, I didn't connect it until now, but Flora who kidded fine two weeks ago did have a large amount of somewhat smellier than usual discharge after kidding, and also mastitis immediately after. She was treated with antibiotics for both, and is fine now.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 30, 2010)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> I will look into the hay for certain. We are going to buy a new load of hay and throw out what we have left of this one, just to be certain it wasn't a toxin in the feed. We do have a beetle around here  known to live in alfalfa that can cause poisoning and death in horses, I don't know about goats. We found that out when we lost our horse because of it.


Wow..  That's odd.  

I'm really sorry to hear that!  



> It was the same buck that bred both does, and also the third one who had two healthy boys. He is a healthy yearling (don't know if his young age could cause this, but I can't imagine it would), doesn't show any sign of any illness. After Gracee aborted I gave her and him both antibiotics since he was penned in the kidding stall with Gracee to keep her calm. (She doesn't like being away from him)
> 
> Gracee did have some red pee and a lot more discomfort than usual after kidding. I attributed it to her having a hard delivery though; she seemed in a lot of pain, bled a lot for a few days after, and when I found her only a couple of hours at most after kidding, her cervix was already closed up tight--I'm thinking it never fully dilated. She ate less than usual for a couple of weeks after too. But she had no fever. So I can't rule out leptospirosis, I think. I'll call around and see if anyone around here knows where I can get her blood tested, and what it would cost.


Probably not a bad idea to have them tested for lepto, and also get an iodine level..



> I would also like to check them on copper too, if I can find a place to do the testing and I can afford it.


That's a little trickier...  An accurate copper test requires a liver biopsy..  



> I wish the feed store here had a loose mineral, but they don't. Would crushing up the block into a powder be a good idea? I can certainly do that if it would help.


Not sure if I'd do that..  If you alter the way it's being consumed to make it easier, I'd be concerned that they may end up consuming more of it than the manufacturer intended..  

If that's your only option, I'd definitely make sure to check the PPMs and %'s to be sure it's equivalent to a loose mineral..  Even then, you've got salt/sugar contents to worry about.  Mineral makers use salts and sweets to try to both encourage _and_ limit consumption..  If the block's designed to be tasty enough to have them stand there and lick for several minutes at a time, it may be tasty enough for them to stand and eat a ground up block of it all day long..

That's speculation, of course, but that's something I'd check on..


ETA:  The most common reason for abortion in goats is Chlamydia..  I should have said already that I'd actually suspect Chlamydia before Lepto simply because Chlamydia is far more common...  So if you're going to check for Lepto, be sure to check for that too..

Still...neither of those explain hairlessness in a full-term fetus.


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## michickenwrangler (Mar 30, 2010)

You should be able to go to Utah's Dept. of Agriculture online and hopefully find a contact that you can call or email. Do you know the dealer/rancher you're getting it from? Can you find out what county/area it was grown?

Some western soils are erratic in mineral content because of erosion, faulting, old sea beds, geologic formations, etc...

So sorry to hear about your kids


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## Ariel301 (Mar 31, 2010)

Indeed, the hairlessness is what stumps me. I was looking at how to test their copper and saw that there is not a blood test...obviously liver biopsy isn't really an option. I know we are in an area known for copper deficiency, so it might be good for me to look at supplementing more copper...I just want to be careful not to overdo it. 

Still trying to figure out what our iodine is like here. It seems like a silly question, but would it help to give them iodized salt, if they are not getting enough iodine? 

I'm going to call vets tomorrow and see about testing for leptospirosis and chlamydia, and iodine if they can do that. Maybe just doing the bloodwork on this most recent doe would not be too expensive...

On a brighter note, a friend of mine who had an exceedingly good doe year is going to give us a Nubian doeling!


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## BellaLulaFarm (Apr 3, 2010)

michickenwrangler said:
			
		

> You should be able to go to Utah's Dept. of Agriculture online and hopefully find a contact that you can call or email. Do you know the dealer/rancher you're getting it from? Can you find out what county/area it was grown?
> 
> Some western soils are erratic in mineral content because of erosion, faulting, old sea beds, geologic formations, etc...
> 
> So sorry to hear about your kids


Do you have a County Extension Agent anywhere around?  They usually can provide good, free information, and frequently will even come out to your house to go over your stock.  I imagine if it was infection, they would want to know, and ?might be able to arrange a necropsy at the sponsoring Ag College? (don't know about the last, but wouldn't hurt to ask)

So sorry


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## Ariel301 (Apr 3, 2010)

We do have an extension, but no one here takes goats seriously or knows anything about them. Even the local vets won't treat them except for things like stitches. I asked around about getting a necropsy and bloodwork, and was told I'd have to overnight ship the kids, placentas (both of which I don't have anymore, since I have nowhere to store stuff like that, no one wants it in our refrigerator!) and blood samples to Colorado, the location of the nearest ag college and lab that can do the testing. Of course, this would be two shipments, since they need blood from the day she aborted (too late for that on both does, obviously) and blood drawn three weeks later. So, that would be $$$....that I don't have. 

Goat kids sell for $25-50 around here, so no one bothers treating their problems. They're disposable, essentially. If yours gets sick, shoot it and buy a new one. Of course the goats sold around here are all scrub goats that are not good for milking/showing/breeding etc. They're just weed eaters to most people, or a cheap source of meat. No one believes that I paid over a hundred dollars for any of my goats, or they think I was an idiot for doing so. 

So, it seems the plan will be to cover all the bases with treatment. They do look a bit copper deficient to me, split tails, rough coats, the first problematic doe is really thin and just a poor doer despite deworming, probiotics, and all the feed she can eat....so I will copper bolus them, and get some oxytetracycline in them since that is the antibiotic recommended for chlamydia, and leptospirosis. I don't think they were exposed to toxoplasmosis as we don't have outdoor cats. 

I am leaning towards chlamydia, the symptoms seem to fit best. The question is, though, how did they get it? They have not been off my property in the last year before the first abortion. They kidded fine last year. There have been no new goats on the property. 

Two of the does (the first one that aborted and one still pregnant at the time, who delivered normally) did spend a few days at a friend's house about a month after the first abortion, while I was out of town. They were in their own pen, but could touch other goats and sheep over a fence, and there are now goats in the pen they were in...could those goats and sheep get infected now? I am happy to treat my friend's animals too, I just want to know if it is necessary. And what about the doeling I am getting in a few weeks? How can I protect her from catching this? I read that even after aborting, a doe can be a carrier though she will not abort again. Is that true even if she was treated with the antibiotics? And I have arrangements to lease a buck this fall...but I don't want to get him sick too. Is there anything preventative I need to do for him at that time? Or should I not bring him to my farm at all? 

My doe Flora who kidded normally 22 days ago had an awful lot of nasty brown discharge after delivering her kids. She is still leaking, though now it is looking like just pure blood. She's also got a bit of a cough. Both does that aborted had the same icky brown discharge and wrong looking afterbirth...it looked rather inflamed and thick and just not the right color. On the normal kidding doe, there was also some blood and brown slime in the fluid around the kids. I really think they are sick with something.


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## Roll farms (Apr 3, 2010)

They tested the copper in 2 of my does' blood, at Purdue.


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## Ariel301 (Apr 4, 2010)

Was it accurate, do you think? From what I have read, it seems that blood copper is not necessarily accurate.


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## michickenwrangler (Apr 4, 2010)

Mineral deficiencies sometimes take a while to surface, for the goat to actually become deficient. Does your feed store/TSC sell loose goat minerals? You should also be able to order some from Hoeggers or Caprine Supply if there is no local source.

Again, try Utah's county extension, even if YOUR area isn't goat savvy, the Utah branch should be knowledgeable of their own soil and hay even if it isn't being fed to goats.


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## Bring (Apr 5, 2010)

Would an Iodine deficiancy cause Hypothyroid?  If the does had hypothyroid due to the deficiancy there would be symptoms.  Goiter in the throat, tired or lazy, weight gain, slow heart rate and some others.  At least that's the syptoms in humans.  Just wondering...

wanted to add..   You might be able to order loose minerals online.


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## Ariel301 (Apr 5, 2010)

I did find a source of loose minerals online, so I will be looking into ordering that instead of the locally available blocks. I will have to probably provide it to them in supervised quantities though, as my buck would sit there and eat a whole bucketful at once if he could, just because he is a greedy pig. At least with the block his tongue probably gets sore before he overdoses himself!  I used to have a horse the same way, she could consume a whole 50 pound block in a couple of weeks if left unsupervised with it! 

I found out about our hay, it is from a copper deficient area. It baffles me that our soil here is copper deficient, as this used to be a major copper mining area. 

I don't know about the iodine, not seeing any symptoms of that. The does' coats are pretty rough and scraggly, and their skin is dry and flaky, but they do not have any hypothyroid signs or goiter. I am seeing that brown fading on the black ones that is typical with copper deficiency, as well as the 'fish tails' where the hair at the end of the tail is split and not growing right. I am not seeing any general hair loss symptoms on the adult goats, or even on the kids that were born live. The symptoms I have found for iodine deficiency don't really fit what I am seeing. 

I don't know if the copper had much to do with the abortions, since the symptoms seem fairly mild so far, and looking back at pictures of the goats the day we got them, they have been like this since then. Maybe it contributed, but I don't think it is the only factor. I am seeing low milk production in all the does, and the one that delivered live kids STILL has a bloody discharge over three weeks after kidding. I'm ordering some oxytetracycline for them. 

So, the question still remains, how did they get the infection, so that I can prevent that sort of thing in the future... We can't afford to keep losing animals, financially or emotionally!


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