# Sudden Deaths in vaccinated older kids...suggestions???



## PattySh (Jun 25, 2011)

Very upset,We have lost 2 older kids (5 month old twins )in the last 3 days. Fine one minute dead the next, no diarrea, not skinny, not bloated,pink gums, no fever, no snot.  These kids have been super healthy since birth never having any sign of illness. They had 2 doses of CDT and we ivomeced them a month ago. They have been in a barn in a large horse stall. First one was banded so I thought maybe tetnus even tho vaccinated, today shocked to find another one dead. the one we lost today was still a buckling, very nice large kid I was going to keep for breeding.  Very very wet here this year so kept them inside . Barn is well ventilated  at both ends (doors wide open) and they have bedding of wasted hay. Nothing to get entangled in in the stall.  Clean Water and hay at all times, small amt of grain per day.I checked the grain for mold but it is fine.  Looks like entertoxemia but they have been vaccinated?? First one found still alive but barely, head turned back and bawling, obviously dying and died a few minutes after we found him, not a mark on him,  good weight, gums still pink, eyes glassy.Today found the buckling dead. No marks on him, head not turned back, laying on his side good weight (largest kid). He was fine last nite.  Checked everyone else still all fine no signs of illness.  2 kids a month older in their pen and 3- 5 month old  doelings real close by. We have had to use a few weeks of poor quality hay as we ran out and our supplier couldn't cut due to the weather, it was not moldy but  tan vs green tho the hay smelled ok it wasn't something I would normally feed. Didn't appear to  have weeds in it. Mixed grass hay but probably stuff stored in sunlight access area in the barn. My adultmilking does and buck and my daughters nigerians (including tiny bottle babies and newly weaned nigis) all ate the same hay, actually ate it right up. My Does and adult Nigis also had pasture. Baby nigis did not. Wondering now if it was the hay but thinking the little Nigerians not affected (They have not had CDT yet).  (We have fresh cut now and have been using that for 3 days.) I'm upset, not sure what to do.  Thinking the crappy hay might be the culprit. One kid in the pen a nigerian buckling does have horns I also thought about that possibility, I have watched them eat and play together and have never ever seen him use his horns but?? Noted the belly of the kid found today appeared a bit blue but he was belly down and probably blood pooling?  Nothing worst than to lose kids you bottle fed for months. Bad week. Money will be unusually tight for the next month so necrospy isn't possible.  Any ideas? Very worried about the others.


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## elevan (Jun 26, 2011)

Check the expiration date on your CD/T bottle and make sure it wasn't outdated last month...

Your first kid sounds like maybe tetnus to me.  You said they are in a horse stall...were there horses in it before?  Horses carry tetnus in their bodies and it is in their poop.  So it would be in the ground of your stall.

Other than that all I have right now is


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## ksalvagno (Jun 26, 2011)

Sorry about your losses. I'd say without a necropsy, it really is hard to say. I sure hope you don't lose anyone else. I know how heartbreaking that is.


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## terrilhb (Jun 26, 2011)

I am so sorry for your. Loss.


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## PattySh (Jun 26, 2011)

Thanks everyone. Expiration date is 7/13/13.  No horses in that stall for several years. Actually last resident(s) was a sow pig and her litter . Stall is rubber matted over concrete so no dirt. We do have horses on premises tho. The goats have been in that stall  since 8 weeks old. I am kicking myself for feeding that hay still thinking possibly that's the cause.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 26, 2011)

How long had it been since the pig was in there and did you clean it out thoroughly before those 2 were in it? When I looked into having pigs with my alpacas, I was told to keep them apart and don't let them even share a fenceline. Then I was told that it was the same with goats. Salmonella being one of the problems.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 26, 2011)

what kind of grain?  I would immediately suspect UC.


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## Ariel301 (Jun 26, 2011)

I wouldn't be too concerned about calculi in kids that young, so recently banded, and only eating a small amount of grain. But then again, I've never personally seen it happen, it just doesn't seem to be an issue around here.

I have lost two kids in the same way in the last couple of years; a wether and a doeling, both about 2 months old and seemingly healthy when I checked them before bed, and then I found them cold and stiff and dead the next morning. We thought maybe rattlesnake bite or something poisonous in the hay, but never had a necropsy done. I have also recently been finding out we've got severe problems with cocci and mineral deficiency that has probably been building up for a long time, so I wonder if something of that nature was going on inside those kids that we couldn't see that killed them.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 26, 2011)

It is the perfect age for UC and the amount of grain is not as much of an issue as what the grain is.   If the main ingredient is corn, if there is no AC in the feed.  I can almost guarantee it is UC.  I have lost two bucklings to it myself, and have seen it in several that I have sold.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 27, 2011)

we lost a buck at 3 months of age to UC.  5 months is more than old enough. 

edited to add: any chance they were with out water for a few hours on a hot day? Even a few hours with no water can cause a nasty case of UC very very quickly. And possibly more than one animal could be affected. 

I would also suspect coccidiosis,  



Coccidiosis can be a silent killer and your goats have not been treated. They haven't been on enough grain to matter even if it was medicated grain for cocci prevention.   Cocci does not always show signs of scours/runny poop.  I know one year I lost a couple kids with in a week of each other, with  no symptoms, then a few days after that several of the other kids broke with really bad scours.  That was a rough kidding season.  It did end up being coccidiosis.  We now treat the kids starting at 3 weeks of age for cocci, plus we feed a medicated feed free-choice to the kids for the first 4 months or so.  They eat on average about 3% of their body weight, some will eat closer to 4%.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jun 27, 2011)

I am sooo sorry.    I tend to think it would not be UC or Cocci in this instance.  UC can kill quickly...but there are obvious signs and symtoms and same with cocci. Not seeing signs happens..but rare.  I would think of some type of poison they got into. Plant or mold??? I know your in VT and mountain laurel is prevenlant as well...that is highly poisonous to them. I had a large doe go down in a matter of hours after eating it.  I manage to save her...but if it was later in the evening she would'nt of made it.  And for younger ones..its always quicker. 

Also you can rule out tetnus, it takes a few weeks to set in once they get it...and its obvious symtoms you would of notice for certain!  Its about 3-4 days of painful and serious muscle spasming and stiffining before they die.  Not pretty at all and very painful for them.  I always promote the CD&T...if people dont vaccinate for anything else...the tetnus is a must!  Its terrible for them.  

I hate the guessing game.  I hope something gives you a clue as to what happened.  Im sorry you lost them.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 27, 2011)

I think with UC you'd definitely notice signs of distress.  

I know you said money is tight, but if you could find any way at all to scrape together the money for a necropsy I would find a way to do it.  Perhaps they can bill you, so it might give you a month to get the money together?  The cost of a necropsy is not much to pay when it could save other goats!  I'd at least call around ASAP and find a lab that could bill you.  It would be worth it to prevent more deaths.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 27, 2011)

I would consider doing a fecal on a couple of the other 5 month old doelings, or a couple other animals around the same age that were housed with the goats that didn't make it. 

I am sorry, I know it is frustrating.  You said almost looked like entertoxemia,  I personally think it was probably cocci, UC would be pretty hard to miss if you were in with them on a regular basis, they normally suffer pretty badly for a couple days. The only reason I would suspect a bad case of UC would be if you know they went with out water for more than 4 or 5 hours.  

You said one of the goats has horns.  I did witness an adult doe run across my barn and slam into a 2 month old kid and by chance hit it into a 4x4 post and it screamed for 30 seconds or so before dropping dead. If I had not witnessed this, I would have had no idea what killed it.  She wouldn't need horns to have done this, she used her forhead.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 27, 2011)

I would still like to know what kind of grain.  2 bucklings(5 months old) die the same age.  I hear this day in and day out from people I have sold goats to, and from other breeder friends. It is UC no doubt.  If you don't know what your looking for UC is not easily spotted.


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## PattySh (Jun 27, 2011)

Not sure about the UC. They were bright and playing normally hours earlier both of them. We are using Poulin Grain Sweet Goat.  Not alot of choices locally, our goats didn't do well on a dairy feed that we tried to use instead of the sweet stuff.  But..The boys  are getting minimal grain only because they see us feed it to the doelings nearby. I'd say max 1/4 cup each daily, real minimum. They have their water changed daily and have never been out, always have some left in the buckets.  The doelings actually dumped their bucket once and could have been out for hours but the boys have never done that. I haven't noticed any straining with urination but I'm am watching everyone carefully now. The little guy with horns is a nigerian buckling who is a bit smaller than the ones who died, don't really think he's responsible. I am really thinking  more and more now that it's the hay, it was very dry and older looking but they really hoovered it (weird but the weird goats seem to love the old dry hay!)and  did drink alot more than normal, I am now thinking an impaction. Had I thought that a few days ago I would have opened up the goat and checked,  I was so upset that I wasn't thinking straight.  A bit gross to do now.  Hay was not something I would feed unless it was our only choice, I am usually pretty picky about my hay and store a season's worth, miscalculated because haying late this year..  We had a vehicle in the shop lso no way to go get more, had to take what my supplier had left. NOW I kick myself. I hate this year, so wet. Here is a pic of the little ones who died, taken on t heir birthday.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





(Pressure washed the stall  (lower walls concrete)with bleach after the sow, mats all all). Sat for a couple of months after so dry and clean when they went in.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jun 27, 2011)

Thats a shame..they were cute!!  My gut is telling me a metabolic situation occured..polio, listeriosis, poisons...something like that.  Metabolic issues can happen very quickly in little ones...and you may have seen them and they were fine..and then boom it hits them.  Wet conditions, moldy hay, even molasses based feeds can cause problems with polio etc.  This is just my opinion.  What I would do is give everyone else a shot of thiamine.  If you cant get thiamine I would in the least give everyone a Vitamin B  injection tonight and some probiotics so you can get thier rumens balanced if that was the issue.  I would hate to see you lose anyone else.    Changing feed can do this too...thats why its important to mix your hays...if I am running low..I keep an eye...and introduce new bales with older bales and make sure they are good.  But its been a wet wet spring up here...so I bet mold was the culprit.  Ugggghhh!!! Im sooooo sorry for you!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jun 27, 2011)

Just a note...I personally dont think it was UC...just my opinion.  You definatley would of seen signs of straining and they would of gone down in pain...laying down..grinding teeth etc..that takes a little more time to actually kill them.  I think you would of noticed that since you see them a few times a day.

But anyway..just for your future information Poulin Sweet Grain does not have amonium chloride in it.  I believe.  AC is crucial to have in the grain when feeding bucks.  You can get a bag of loose and add it to the grain...I would highly recomend that in the future for feeding bucks or switch grains.  I know my feed store will order it...so I would ask.  If someones gonna buy it...they will order it for you.  Well worth asking!

Good luck! And again....Im sorry...I hate when the unexplained happens.  Ive been there..and know how you feel.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 27, 2011)

I would bet that if you look at the tag on your feed that the first or second ingredient is a UC loving cereal grain (corn, wheat, barley).


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## elevan (Jun 27, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> I would bet that if you look at the tag on your feed that the first or second ingredient is a UC loving cereal grain (corn, wheat, barley).


I really don't know how - unless you have a mill custom mix your feed - that you are gonna avoid those grains in your goat feed...


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## Goatmasta (Jun 27, 2011)

Processed Grain By-Products, Roughage Products, Grain
Products, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal (With Ethoxyquin-A
Preservative), Plant Protein Products, Molasses Products, Calcium
Carbonate, Lignin Sulfonate, Ammonium Chloride, Salt, Sodium
Propionate (A Preservative), Magnesium Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate,
Cobalt Carbonate, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Manganous
Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium
Sulfate, Mineral Oil, Sodium Selenite, Zinc Amino Acid Complex,
Natural and Artificial Flavors, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin E
Supplement,Thiamine Mononitrate,Vitamin D3 Supplement.

Notice "Grain products" is the 3rd ingredient this is way better than being #1.  By-products and roughage products is what you want to be at the top of the list.  Note molasses products is #6 the last ingredient before additives.
   I said nothing about avoiding the grain products altogether, I was commenting that they were most likely the main ingredient.


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## PattySh (Jun 27, 2011)

My feed dealer has another  goat grain available, it's a meat goat grower, it's medicated and has ammonium chloride in it. I have avoided it only because it's a 50# bag and I only have a few bucklings (or wethers) at any time (currently 2). My adult buck doesn't get grain. Was afraid a bag that size would mold or go "stale". Also I am not used to medicating my animals without reason so that was concerning.   Pretty sure it's got corn in it also and it is for putting weight on animals quicky for market. Didn't think it would be good for  animals being kept long term. Opinions? I know if I don't use the bag of sweet goat up within a week it drys out. I store feed  in closed room in metal trash cans in the barn.


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## elevan (Jun 27, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> *Processed Grain By-Products*, Roughage Products, Grain
> Products, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal (With Ethoxyquin-A
> Preservative), Plant Protein Products, Molasses Products, Calcium
> Carbonate, Lignin Sulfonate, Ammonium Chloride, Salt, Sodium
> ...


They are still technically #1...


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## elevan (Jun 27, 2011)

PattySh said:
			
		

> My feed dealer has another  goat grain available, it's a meat goat grower, it's medicated and has ammonium chloride in it. I have avoided it only because it's a 50# bag and I only have a few bucklings (or wethers) at any time (currently 2). My adult buck doesn't get grain. Was afraid a bag that size would mold or go "stale". Also I am not used to medicating my animals without reason so that was concerning.   Pretty sure it's got corn in it also and it is for putting weight on animals quicky for market. Didn't think it would be good for  animals being kept long term. Opinions? I know if I don't use the bag of sweet goat up within a week it drys out. I store feed  in closed room in metal trash cans in the barn.


I would think that adding AC to your grain would be fairly simple since you're using a sweet mix the AC will stick to it.
Just mix up a couple of cups at a time for the boys separately.

I think the "ingredients" of the meat grower would pose a problem for long term use.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 27, 2011)

Just because it is a meat goat feed does not mean it is meant to put weight on for market.  If it is a pelleted feed it will not go stale nearly as quick as a sweet feed.  Usually the only real difference in the meat goat feed and the dairy goat feed is that the meat goat is normally medicated.  I feed medicated feed to my entire dairy herd unless I am drinking the milk.  There are no long term issues other than keeping your cocci load in check.    My adult bucks also get a feed ration just like my does, they need it in order to stay in good weight when they are working.  The bucks demand on their body is just as much if not more than the does when they are in demand.
  The important part of the feed is that the "Grain products" is not the #1 product.  By-products or roughage is fine.  And the ammonium chloride is a must for bucks and wethers regardless.  I have learned my hard lessons with UC and I have not had a case of it in many years.  But I had to change my feeding program to correct the issue.  You can take a urine sample from one of the does that is the same age as the deceased bucks and have it tested.  I would bet that the test come back with crystals in it.  The does can pass the crystals and usually you have no idea the does even had UC.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 27, 2011)

By-products are things like hulls, middlings, stems, etc....   They are roughage and filler.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jun 28, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> PattySh said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with this.  I would add the AC to your sweet grain if you cannot get any other grains "unmedicated" with AC in it.  Its fairly inexpensive and Jeffers will ship it right to you if your feed store cant get it.  I do not feed medicated feed to my dairy herd at all and would not recomend that long term for dairy animals.  It is designed for meat goats for a reason.  

Feeding goats can be a little overwhelming sometimes cuz alot of people have alot of differant opinions.  But a balanced feed and browse/hay is really important for ruminants!  That rumen is a well balanced machine and when it gets out of whack it reaks havoc on them.  

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2503.pdf

Its worth reviewing this info on ruminants digestion.  It covers acidity levels when grain feeding etc.  It may be interesting for you...and it may help you understand why they are fed specifically certain feeds..when, why and how!    Good luck.  As it may seem like rocket science..it really is'ant..just stick to basic's and dont change much..Dont overfeed grains, add AC when unavailable for bucks to keep PH balanced, plenty of fresh water and hay...and things will be great!!


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 28, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> It is the perfect age for UC and the amount of grain is not as much of an issue as what the grain is.   If the main ingredient is corn, if there is no AC in the feed.  I can almost guarantee it is UC.  I have lost two bucklings to it myself, and have seen it in several that I have sold.


UC is a slow and painful death. Not healthy one minute and dead the next.  

Normally rapid death can relate to Entero, and the vaccine is not a guarantee that they won't get it.  When we started we used generic CD&T vaccines, but after loosing goats as you described we changed to Covexin 8. Since then we have not lost any kids (born on our farm) to entero.

Also tetanus is present in goat stomachs as well.  If you have any kind of livestock on your farm you are going to have tetanus present - everywhere!  Though your first goat did show signs of tetanus, it also is a slow and painful death, though tetanus is not necessarily a death sentence anymore, it is a tough road for the goat to regain full health.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 28, 2011)

_Post removed. If you don't have anything helpful to add, move along._


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## ksalvagno (Jun 28, 2011)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> Normally rapid death can relate to Entero, and the vaccine is not a guarantee that they won't get it.  When we started we used generic CD&T vaccines, but after loosing goats as you described we changed to Covexin 8. Since then we have not lost any kids (born on our farm) to entero.


Good to see you on here GA! I was just thinking about the same thing that CD &T only covers 2 clostridium and there are 7 way and 8 way colstridiums that you can use. They don't include tetanus so you would have to buy tetanus and give them a separate shot but this way may be worth it in your case, Patty.


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## PattySh (Jun 28, 2011)

Took the remaining 2 bucklings off grain til we can obtain ammonium chloride.. The vaccine we used is by  Colorado Serum Company, Essential 3 & T.  I use Jeffers for vaccines.  I am now wanting to switch vaccines. what do you guys use? Everyone using Covexin8? I want everyone to note that ordinarily I RUN to the vets and by reading my past posts this is obvious. I have 2 great sets of vets one for large and one for small animals.  We unexpectedly  have a  several  very expensive  circumstances suddenly that came up. If an animal was sick right now they *would* see a vet, I just can't justify vetting an already dead animal at this point as everyone else looks great. Next question, should I redo everyone's vaccines or is this not safe??I want to thank everyone for their help with this issue.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 28, 2011)

Years ago I used Vision 7 on my alpacas. They are selling Cavalry 9 at PBS Animal Health. I would suggest that you don't give the 7, 8 or 9 way and tetanus on the same day. I saw a lot of reaction problems in my alpacas when I did that. I would actually put a week in between shots.


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## elevan (Jun 28, 2011)

PattySh said:
			
		

> Took the remaining 2 bucklings off grain til we can obtain ammonium chloride.. The vaccine we used is by  Colorado Serum Company, Essential 3 & T.  I use Jeffers for vaccines.  I am now wanting to switch vaccines. what do you guys use? Everyone using Covexin8? I want everyone to note that ordinarily I RUN to the vets and by reading my past posts this is obvious. I have 2 great sets of vets one for large and one for small animals.  We unexpectedly  have a  several  very expensive  circumstances suddenly that came up. If an animal was sick right now they *would* see a vet, I just can't justify vetting an already dead animal at this point as everyone else looks great. Next question, should I redo everyone's vaccines or is this not safe??I want to thank everyone for their help with this issue.


You could temporarily substitute Fruit Fresh powder in for the AC until the AC arrives.

Is your vet willing to have a phone conversation with you about what happened?  He / she may have some insight into it.  My vet often does phone consults.  The plus on that is that most vets don't charge for phone consults 

I use the standard CD/T...and it can be done 2x a year.  So if you've been doing the standard CD/T and want to switch to something that covers a broader range then I personally don't see why you couldn't give it if it's been at least 6 months past your last CD/T vaccinations.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 29, 2011)

We give all our keeper kids 3 vaccine shots with in the first 6 months, since some of them go to the 4H shows, We give the first two right away and the next one a couple months later, but atleast 2 months before the show, since some of these are meat goats and will go to slaughter.

That would have to be the fastes UC cases ever to be healthy one day and dead the next, I would have a tendency to lean towards bacterial or something more like that,  The last goat that I had that died of UC suffered for over a week, then we finally had him put down.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 29, 2011)

PattySh said:
			
		

> Took the remaining 2 bucklings off grain til we can obtain ammonium chloride.. The vaccine we used is by  Colorado Serum Company, Essential 3 & T.  I use Jeffers for vaccines.  I am now wanting to switch vaccines. what do you guys use? Everyone using Covexin8? I want everyone to note that ordinarily I RUN to the vets and by reading my past posts this is obvious. I have 2 great sets of vets one for large and one for small animals.  We unexpectedly  have a  several  very expensive  circumstances suddenly that came up. If an animal was sick right now they *would* see a vet, I just can't justify vetting an already dead animal at this point as everyone else looks great. Next question, should I redo everyone's vaccines or is this not safe??I want to thank everyone for their help with this issue.


The company that makes Covexin 8 is now making another version of it that does not leave a cyst.  I don't have the information for that shot, but it also covers tetanus.  One thing you can do with a deceased goat in the future is open up the abdomen and look at the kidneys and bladder.  It is rough to do sometimes when the goat is more of a family member, but it can save you some real heartache in the future.  Enterotoximia is also known as pulpy kidney disease, so the kidneys look obviously messed up.  If UC is the culprit, you will either see a lot of urine in the abdomen or you will find a very large bladder.

And always wash real well after handling a dead carcass, so as to not pass anything along to another goat.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jun 29, 2011)

I use Jeffers too for vaccines and never had an issue with them.  ???  Always effective to the best of my knowledge.  No one ever got sick in my herd.  So it may not of been the vaccines.


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## NDgal (Jul 3, 2011)

I wouldn't  think UC would hit  without symptoms.  Entero "can" kill suddenly and perhaps the culprit was your suspect hay. Another possibility is silent pneumonia - one day they can be fine; the next, gone.  While cocci can be asymptomatic, goats generally start getting some immunity at three months.


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