# Fence gate on a hille question



## Mike CHS (Oct 24, 2016)

We are about to finish our first pen that will be our temporary paddock for sheep soon to come.  It will transition to the goat pen after we finish the next 5 acre section of fence.  The problem I'm having is I need a gate on the opposite side of the driveway but since the slope is so steep I'm limited to how I can position the gate without having a foot or more gap on the low side.  I'm looking at installing at a slight angle and I have enough stone and gravel to level the low side if what I'm doing will work with opinions from the more experienced on here.  The 1st pic is the pen that we are finishing today. That gate will be used to move live stock between the pens.  I will use cattle panels temporarily in place to keep them going where I want and the dogs will be on either side if they want to push things.  The gate we need is directly opposite from this but will be almost at a right angle to the other gate as shown in the second pic.  The slope we are trying to work around is in the last pic. (If I upload correctly)  We had planned on having them straight across from each other but our inexperience let us convince ourselves that the hill could be adjusted to.  When I started laying out timbers I saw how big the gap would be and decided to look for a Plan B which moved the gate to a slight angle to give me room to maneuver after entering the pen without being at the edge of the 10 degree slope as soon as I enter.  There will be other gates on the flats but they have to be done after this pen. 

We originally thought the pen we are now finishing would be good till we finished the next section but of course that plan has changed.  We didn't originally see the woody area in the pen to be a problem but recent experience with herding sheep in woods (or trying to) has shown that to be problematic to say the least.

This post is a lot of wind to ask if anyone can see any major fault with my layout.  I'll use H-braces at  both sides of the gate and the remainder of the run will be conventional except I'll be using more T-posts and less wood posts.  There is no way to enter the paddock from the downhill with anything other than my tractor or golf cart due to the angle if I don't angle the gate to give me room to maneuver.  The 2x4 laying at an angle represents the gate placement.  I will have to fill in with gravel to make the area level but that's no big deal.

The slope in the last pic shows how steep the run will be down hill.


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## Baymule (Oct 24, 2016)

What size is your gate? With swing room and a slope being a problem, I wouldn't go any smaller than 16'. We have a gas pipeline easement on our property and we put up a 16' gate from our "yard" to the pipeline and haven't regretted it. There is a line of forest on the other side of the pipeline and we need that sixteen foot gate. I put a 12' gate going from the pipeline to the horse pasture and sure enough, DH took out the gatepost. It currently has a T-post Band-Aid and we'll be putting up a 16' gate.

Looking at your layout, if you need swing room, maybe inset your gate and angle the sides of the inset? If you need the gate to reach across the lane to meet up with the other gate, then maybe a 20' gate?


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## Mike CHS (Oct 24, 2016)

That is a good suggestion.  I was thinking just an 8' gate but I haven't tried maneuvering in there with that small of a gate (especially with the tractor and bush hog).  This gate will be mainly for moving sheep from pasture too/from the catch pen (which will be the dairy goat pen).  I will take a dry run on the spot tomorrow and see if a larger gate would be better.  We had originally planned using the gate to control sheep movement but our dogs are proving to be better than expected.

We will have cattle panels available for flighty critters but not sure we will need them.


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## Baymule (Oct 24, 2016)

You need more gates than you think and they need to be longer than you think you need.  An 8' gate? On a farm?


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## NH homesteader (Oct 24, 2016)

I glanced quickly and thought that said you need more GOATS than you think you need.  Which BTW is totally accurate

Anyway we have teeny tiny gates.  But we don't have a tractor. 

I like to hear that the dogs are doing better than you thought they would be.  Yay! That's fantastic!


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## Baymule (Oct 25, 2016)

My gates are 12' gates with a couple of 16' gates, should've had more 16' gates.


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## greybeard (Oct 25, 2016)

Smallest gate should be 12', and that's minimum for sure. I do have one 10' gate but only because it is on a pond dam, and anything wider would mean it latched or swung off to the down side of the dam and I was loathe to do much digging in the side of that dam.
16' gates are heavy and tend to sag badly. 2 8 footers will serve the same purpose with less weight per mounting post, altho a wheel at the swinging end can help--IF, it swung over level ground..
As far as space below the gate on a slope, just mount the gate to match the slope instead of mounting it straight and level, even if it means using these type mount pins where you can make one much longer than the other. TSC sells them here, as do a couple big box hardware & building stores.


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## Mike CHS (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm glad I posted since I didn't even know that gate bolt was available (will be picked up today).  I won't have as much slope since after reading and listening to ya'lls input we are moving further up the slope and more toward the house and going with two eight foot gates.


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## Bossroo (Oct 25, 2016)

greybeard said:


> Smallest gate should be 12', and that's minimum for sure. I do have one 10' gate but only because it is on a pond dam, and anything wider would mean it latched or swung off to the down side of the dam and I was loathe to do much digging in the side of that dam.
> 16' gates are heavy and tend to sag badly. 2 8 footers will serve the same purpose with less weight per mounting post, altho a wheel at the swinging end can help--IF, it swung over level ground..
> As far as space below the gate on a slope, just mount the gate to match the slope instead of mounting it straight and level, even if it means using these type mount pins where you can make one much longer than the other. TSC sells them here, as do a couple big box hardware & building stores.


A hint for installing the mounting pin hinges - install one extra one in the middle , but upside down so that when an animal tries to stick their head through the gate frame bars it then can't lift the gate off the hinges. Another tip that I use on my ranch is to install the 16' or longer or even 2 -8' gates that slide along the fence on opposite sides of the opening )  gate on rollers so that it slides along the side of the fence to open.


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## babsbag (Oct 25, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Another tip that I use on my ranch is to install the 16' or longer or even 2 -8' gates that slide along the fence on opposite sides of the opening ) gate on rollers so that it slides along the side of the fence to open.



Pictures?   Please.

When I use those hinges on gates I always put them on so they "face" each other and the gate can't be removed. Harder to install but keeps goats from taking down the gate and once they learn how they are very adept at it. Pure Brats.


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## secuono (Oct 25, 2016)

I also turn the top pin down so the gate can't be lifted up and off.
Like this picture.


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## misfitmorgan (Oct 25, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> A hint for installing the mounting pin hinges - install one extra one in the middle , but upside down so that when an animal tries to stick their head through the gate frame bars it then can't lift the gate off the hinges. Another tip that I use on my ranch is to install the 16' or longer or even 2 -8' gates that slide along the fence on opposite sides of the opening )  gate on rollers so that it slides along the side of the fence to open.



We only use two but we always install the top one facing down and the bottom one facing up....then that sucker isnt coming off.

Like the post above mine shows... thats what i get for not reading to the end first.


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## farmerjan (Oct 26, 2016)

There is one big down side to installing the top pin down.  The hinge part will wear after awhile and then it will slide.  Then you are constantly knocking it back up to meet the pin to keep it in place.  I like the suggestion of putting a "third hinge pin" to prevent it getting taken off the hinges.  Also, after years of dealing with cattle, we want to be able to lift a gate off the hinges quickly if there is any kind of emergency so do not  put the top pin down anymore.  Actually we have come up with an easy way to take care of making it hard for an animal to take the gate off the hinges and still make it easy for us to remove if needed.  Put both pins up.  we nail a short piece of 2x4 or something to the post a few inches above the pin but not interferring with putting the gate hinge on the pin.  Then add another 2x2 or 2x4 above it on a nail driven partway in so it turns...like a turn knob on a cabinet.  It stays in place when the gate pin is there, can't lift the gate up off the pin easily, but can quickly be turned sideways and the gate lifted off the pin.  It really does work pretty good and there is no added cost.  
The PINS ARE DESIGNED TO HOLD THE GATE UP,  so it is defeating the purpose to have all the weight of the gate on one pin and the top one only holding it in place.  We also like to have 2 gates and use 10 ft gates mostly now so that you can open one to drive smaller stuff through, open both for bigger pieces of equipment, and for bad weather it gives you some "wiggle room" if the ground is muddy, icey. slippery.  Plus there is less weight and less stress on the gate post if you use 2 smaller gates as opposed to one big gate.  You can then put the pins in and position the gates to best acomondate the ground slope better with less stress and weight on each one.  You always want more gate than you think you will need.....ALWAYS


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## misfitmorgan (Oct 27, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> There is one big down side to installing the top pin down.  The hinge part will wear after awhile and then it will slide.  Then you are constantly knocking it back up to meet the pin to keep it in place.


I have never seen the slipping your referring too. Maybe if it was put up wrong? 



farmerjan said:


> The PINS ARE DESIGNED TO HOLD THE GATE UP,  so it is defeating the purpose to have all the weight of the gate on one pin and the top one only holding it in place.



Maybe thats the type you buy, im not sure. The ones we have used in the past came as a set and gave instructions to put the top pin facing down so i dont think the kind we used were designed to be a specific way because there was no "top" and "bottom" markings on them.


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## farmerjan (Oct 27, 2016)

If you have heavy gates, and we use alot of bull gates that are heavier than the ones you buy at TSC and the neighborhood co-op; they will eventually have the top hinge on the gate slowly work its way down and will have to be pushed back up.  Doesn't matter how tight you put it on the gate.  We use some of these gates many times a day and they will eventually slide.  No there isn't a top or bottom pin, but if you use a heavier gate and it sits on the bottom pin and swings all the time, the pin will at sometime just snap and then you have to take the whole thing out and put a new one in.  I hope you don't ever get in a place where you need to get the gate off the hinges in a hurry and don't have a pliers etc. to undo the top hinge.  The instructions to put the top hinge down is to help discourage people from just lifting the gate up or an animal taking it off, but it doesn't take into account that some people want something to last forever and that there are times when getting the gate off the hinge quickly is imperative.  After over 40 years of farming, we have learned a few tricks and what is practical for us.  Several of the old timers around here that have run cattle for years have told us some tricks of the trade and we have seen first hand why they have done things the way they do.


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## Bossroo (Oct 27, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> I have never seen the slipping your referring too. Maybe if it was put up wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe thats the type you buy, im not sure. The ones we have used in the past came as a set and gave instructions to put the top pin facing down so i dont think the kind we used were designed to be a specific way because there was no "top" and "bottom" markings on them.


Hmmm! I guess that the manufacturer hasn't heard of gravity and it's effect on slipage . When you distribute the weight of the gate at two points instead of only on the bottom pin it has a lesser chance of slipping down.  Another method to solve the animals lifting the gate off it's hinges is to put in self tapping screws into and through the hinge strap and into the gate .


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## Bruce (Oct 27, 2016)

Not sure how the bottom pin can slide down, isn't it bolted into/through (depending on the style) the hinge side post? Or are we talking about pins that clamp to a round metal post?


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## misfitmorgan (Oct 27, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> If you have heavy gates, and we use alot of bull gates that are heavier than the ones you buy at TSC and the neighborhood co-op; they will eventually have the top hinge on the gate slowly work its way down and will have to be pushed back up.  Doesn't matter how tight you put it on the gate.  We use some of these gates many times a day and they will eventually slide.  No there isn't a top or bottom pin, but if you use a heavier gate and it sits on the bottom pin and swings all the time, the pin will at sometime just snap and then you have to take the whole thing out and put a new one in.  I hope you don't ever get in a place where you need to get the gate off the hinges in a hurry and don't have a pliers etc. to undo the top hinge.  The instructions to put the top hinge down is to help discourage people from just lifting the gate up or an animal taking it off, but it doesn't take into account that some people want something to last forever and that there are times when getting the gate off the hinge quickly is imperative.  After over 40 years of farming, we have learned a few tricks and what is practical for us.  Several of the old timers around here that have run cattle for years have told us some tricks of the trade and we have seen first hand why they have done things the way they do.



We dont use heavy gates because we dont have cattle. I've never seen them slip though even on heavy gates for cattle, also never seen them snap off, i have seen the gate loops rust and the gate fall off though. My Grandparents and Great Grandparents ran a dairy cattle farm for over 125years....i install gates the same way they did. I've never seen a problem so far and i never saw them need to replace the pins just the gates now and then. I can't think of a reason i would need to lift a gate up though...but i dont plane on having cows anytime soon if ever.



Bossroo said:


> Hmmm! I guess that the manufacturer hasn't heard of gravity and it's effect on slipage . When you distribute the weight of the gate at two points instead of only on the bottom pin it has a lesser chance of slipping down.  Another method to solve the animals lifting the gate off it's hinges is to put in self tapping screws into and through the hinge strap and into the gate .



Gravity holds things down last time i checked it doesnt make things slip up. The bottom pin holds the downward force and the top pin holds the shear force, this is a common practice and how many things are designed to work. Look at doors for instance many doors that only have two hinges will have the bottom hinge holding the doors weight and the top hinge holding the shear force. Meaning the top hinge is reversed from the bottom which is why old hinges that you can tap the pins out of generally have the pins facing each other.



Bruce said:


> Not sure how the bottom pin can slide down, isn't it bolted into/through (depending on the style) the hinge side post? Or are we talking about pins that clamp to a round metal post?



Yeah im not understanding how it could possibly slip anyplace. One pin go thru the post and faces up and the other goes thru the post and faces down so it holds the gate snugly. There is no place for it to slip too.


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## greybeard (Oct 27, 2016)

In 40+ years, I've never had one 'slip', including bull gates and using 3 hinge pins complicates matters a bit if you get the center one even a little out of line with the top and bottom hinge on a gate that is used daily. 
Bottom 90° hinge pin faces up--top 90° on the pin faces down. 
I've seen too many mature  cows and bulls flip a gate off it's pins if installed with both pins facing up Jan--they'll even do it with one of Preifert's or Sioux Steel's rough stock bull gates. 
I can have any tube gate off it's hinge pins in under 5 minutes with a  9/16 or crescent wrench.


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## Latestarter (Oct 28, 2016)

I'm pretty sure I've decided I'm going with double gates here... a 10 footer for main/typical vehicle traffic and a 6 footer for foot/animal traffic. Both can be opened for larger/longer vehicles (to maneuver through) if the need arises.


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## misfitmorgan (Oct 28, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I'm pretty sure I've decided I'm going with double gates here... a 10 footer for main/typical vehicle traffic and a 6 footer for foot/animal traffic. Both can be opened for larger/longer vehicles (to maneuver through) if the need arises.



Sounds like an excellent idea @Latestarter


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## Bruce (Oct 28, 2016)

How easy, or not, is it to keep the gates closed against each other such that animals can't push out between them? I ended up with two 36" 5' high gates from HD on 2" metal posts to keep the chickens back between or behind the barns. Clearly a "residential" design but nothing agricultural seems to come in 5' heights. I use cane bolts in holes drilled into a PT 4x4 laid in the ground to hold them closed. That would be somewhat less practical out in a field than it is up close to the house.


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## farmerjan (Oct 28, 2016)

There is a "stop rod" that can be attached to a gate, that drops down to the ground to keep one gate closed when you open the other in a double gate situation.  It is like spring loaded, so will stay down or up when you  put it where you want it. It works okay, and is nice where the gates might both swing open and you can't get them both closed at the same time or you are trying to just get through a smaller space and don't want to worry about someone "sneaking" past you as you drive through a big opening.  I've seen small pieces of pipe buried in the ground that the end can drop into to keep the gate in place, kinda like the idea @Bruce used with the 4x4  but we usually just use a small gate chain around the gates near the bottom for the sheep when they get to trying to push.


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## greybeard (Oct 28, 2016)

Bruce said:


> How easy, or not, is it to keep the gates closed against each other such that animals can't push out between them?


Pretty easy.  Use a drop pin to anchor one gate closed, and the other gate latches to that one. (I usually drive a piece of pipe a bit larger diameter than the drop pin, so the pin won't just be stuck into dirt) Some people call them a drop pin--some call them an 'easy latch'. You often see them used on double chain link fence gates.
Looks like the picture here

Here's the part that keeps the drop pin from rotating which would allow the left gate to open. (sorry for the crude  extension drawing--couldn't find a good pic with detail) colored area is the ground and below ground.


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## Bruce (Oct 28, 2016)

I have 2 pipes in the ground for the cane bolt on the left side "closes over" barn door. One full open, one "chicken size" open. Use the latter in bad weather. The "chicken" one is barely out of the ground so I don't trip over it seeing as how it is about a foot away from the "closed position. The chickens are pretty good at kicking dirt and tiny bits of rock into it so it needs cleaning out with some frequency. And I need to find it on snowy mornings 

But it wouldn't be a problem for the pipe in a fence line to be further up since there would be no reason to have it in the walking path and the dropped pin is on the "stays closed unless both gates need to be open" side. In my barn case, the right side door is held closed by a turnbuckle on the inside to the upper part of the frame unless I need to open both doors. The cane bolt is used to hold the other door open.

Thanks for the ideas.


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## Bossroo (Oct 28, 2016)

greybeard said:


> Smallest gate should be 12', and that's minimum for sure. I do have one 10' gate but only because it is on a pond dam, and anything wider would mean it latched or swung off to the down side of the dam and I was loathe to do much digging in the side of that dam.
> 16' gates are heavy and tend to sag badly. 2 8 footers will serve the same purpose with less weight per mounting post, altho a wheel at the swinging end can help--IF, it swung over level ground..
> As far as space below the gate on a slope, just mount the gate to match the slope instead of mounting it straight and level, even if it means using these type mount pins where you can make one much longer than the other. TSC sells them here, as do a couple big box hardware & building stores.


If you look at this photo of the clamp that surrounds the round metal gate ... this is where slippage occurs .  You can hang the gate on the top and bottom hinges and use another another middle hinge in the middle but hang it upside down and screw in a self tapping screw though the side of the hinge clamp and through the round metal of the gate .  Or , if you want to use just the top and bottom hinges with the top on hung upside down, you can just use a self tapping screws on the sides of the hinge strap that clamps onto the round gate metal.  Now , if you also have  a round metal fence post ( like for a chain link fence )  or mare motel as the gate post side , you will have 2 clamp on hinge sides which can rotate sideways if an animal hits the gate and/or if an animal tried to put it's head through the gate open spaces and can lift the gate off it's hinges. To solve this you will have to screw in self tapping screws into the sides of the hinge straps and into the fence side post as will as the hinge strap and through the metal of the round metal gate.


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## greybeard (Oct 28, 2016)

Oh, I understand what is being said about 'slippage', but like most others that replied, I just don't understand how it can happen or why. The bottom pin is always turned up. It has a flat on it for the bottom hinge to ride on. That bottom hinge on every pipe or tube gate I've ever used is welded to the gate--it's immovable. The bottom hinge carries almost all the static weight of the gate. The top hinge is movable, mostly to make it easy to install compared to the old stamped galvanized steel farm gates everyone used to use.

The top hinge pin carries no vertical weight, nor does the top hinge, other than it's own weight, and that hinge weighs about as much as my hat does. That  preformed strap hinge, tightened with a 3/8" bolt, nut and lock washer provides about 100x the clamping force needed to support the weight of that top hinge.  As someone else said, the top hinge carries the horizontal  lateral stress--not the the verticalweight.
I probably have 25 tube or pipe gates on my property.  I've never had a single top hinge 'slide' and have never needed to install a 3rd hinge or use a set screw to keep the top hinge in place.

But, lets say the bottom hinge was also movable up and down the vertical stay--neither hinge welded to the vertical stay and both attached to the vertical stay with it's own 3/8" bolt and nut. Wold the bottom (weight bearing) hinge move?  Not in my experience. A few years ago, I had a need for a pair of odd sized shed doors. 10'w and an odd dimension in height. I built the first one the old fashioned way--out of treated wood, covered with sheet metal and barn strap hinges. It was a pita.
The second one, I built with two 10' Preifert built gates.  Turned them bottom to bottom, shortened one on the bottom side to get the overall  correct height, and since they were made with 1 5/8" od tubing, I found 1 1/4" solid  cold roll would slide right in the 3 vertical sections. I inserted 3' into each vertical stay, and welded them up together. With the cold roll and the 26 ga sheet metal, I added an extra 80 lbs to the gates.

As you can see, because one of the gates is inverted, both hinges had to be the movable type. I 'could' have used the welded hinge on the bottom of the top portion, but there was and is no reason to. The clamping force of the two hinges is plenty to support the assembled door. Top pin is turned down, bottom hinge pin is turned up. No "slippage".
This is the approx weight of a 20' gate.



not the best pic, but this is the bottom hinge--the top one is identical:




Top hinge:


 

I store feed in there in summer and hay during fall and winter--it gets a lot of use.


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## Bruce (Oct 29, 2016)

I would guess that if there were any concern about the bottom hinge slipping up under the weight of the gate, it could be installed just below the 2nd tube. If it did slip, that is where it would end up anyway


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## greybeard (Oct 29, 2016)

Bruce said:


> I would guess that if there were any concern about the bottom hinge slipping up under the weight of the gate, it could be installed just below the 2nd tube. If it did slip, that is where it would end up anyway


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## Bossroo (Oct 29, 2016)

To help understand what I am referring to -- there is a Thoroubred breeding farm just about 14 miles from our place.  They breed up to 300 of their own and client mares per year.  They have 100 mare motels ( round steel pipe fencing ) for mares and their foals and 4 large dry lot pens (12' round steel pipe panels hung between steel posts ) for mares without foals.  They tease the mares to detect mares in heat using  pony stallions 2 times per day. Sometimes the pony stallion would stick his head through the gate's bars and when the mare squeels and kicks when not in heat the pony pulls  his head up and out and the gate goes flying off it's hinges.  You can also imagine the activity and the need of the mares to protect their foals from the pony stallions as they pass by when the mare in not in heat as they attack  at the pony with teeth bared.   Sometimes the mare will reach their head through the gate spaces and lift up their head and lift the gate off it's hinges get caught and start to struggle which may cause her to panic and get hurt.  Also, if the mare is in heat , she will swing around and press her rear quarters against the gate and LEAN hard against the gate and have the top gate hinge strap rotate and the gate is then difficult to open because of the difference of top and bottom hinge new hanging angle. The Latino crew were repairing / rehanging the gates almost daily.  When I saw what was happening, I suggested that they install self tapping screws into and through the hinge strap and into the gate  and steel post steel on the other side .  Problem solved .


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## Bruce (Oct 29, 2016)

Perfect example of why people put the top pin facing down


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## greybeard (Oct 29, 2016)

That's one way to do it I suppose, tho installing a gate with the top hinge pin pointing down is the way it's normally done to prevent anything (or anyone) from just lifting the gate up off it's hinge pins for access. Whatever works tho.
Oops--I type slower than Bruce)


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## misfitmorgan (Oct 31, 2016)

Agreed..the top hinge down is the "normal" way to install. I guess i've never seen "slippage" because all the gates that are used up here have the bottom straps welded onto them as greybeard mentioned, they are not a thing you clamp on...even if you did clamp it on i dont see why it would just start sliding one day and if it did why could you not just tighten it more?

This is the type used here top hinge clamp bottom hinge welded on. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/utility-tube-gate-50-in-h-x-4-ft-l

I'm thinking your slippage problem could also be solved by using tall hinge posts and cross cabling them....thats what most here do for long gates of wood or metal.


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