# CT goat owners - herdshare questions



## sawfish99 (Aug 31, 2011)

I have been reading a lot on the forums here and other sites.  My wife and I have been considering getting 3 goats for milking to add to our hobby farm.  This would primarily be for home consumption, however, I expect 3 goats would exceed our milk needs.  I have also been reading about the state raw milk sales laws and registering with the state. 

For those that have gone through the state requirements - how long does the process take and about how much did it cost? From what I understand, the state laws are required for anyone selling the raw milk, even on a small scale directly from the farm.  Is that correct?

I am thinking we will have 5-6 extra gallons a week, so a lot of cost means no profit.  For anyone that does a herdshare without the state regulations, I would be extremely interested in how you handle that.  Private messages off the board are acceptable.

Thanks for any help.


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## sawfish99 (Sep 3, 2011)

I have visited one of the licensed dairy goat farms in the state and confirmed that licensing requirements are cost prohibitive for me at this point.  Particularly since we are talking about 3 goats.

I have been told that herd shares are legal and frequently done in CT.  However, I have also found information online that indicates a 2009 law restricting raw milk to be used only by family has been interpretted to mean herd shares are illegal.  Unfortunately, I can't find anything that is a legal document that states herd shares are illegal.  

Based on my actual full time job (active duty military), I can't even play with the idea of starting an illegal herd share. 

So - does anyone in CT actually operate a raw milk herd share?  If you are doing so, and know it is legal, please provide me with anything that you have as proof.  If you know do but are not sure and want to send that as a private message, I would appreciate any guidance.

I'm not a lawyer, state employee, or law enforcement.


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## freemotion (Sep 3, 2011)

Many (myself included) who looked into this ended up not doing it because of the harassment that it invites.  Sadly.  My husband and I manage to use about two gallons of milk a day during "the season."  We drink some, make kefir, yogurt, ice cream, soups, salad dressings, I'm making a cheesecake for company tomorrow, and I make cheese about 2-3 times a week, working with 4+ gallons each time.  Oh, and I make goat's milk soap.  Towards the end of the season I'll freeze lots to get us through the does' late pregnancies and kidding.  Then a lot of the milk will go to feeding the kids until they are all sold....then the cheesemaking starts up again.

I have pounds and pounds of chevre and feta in the freezer and many wheels of Gouda in the basement fridge.  Next up:  Cheddar, cheddar, and more cheddar!  Interspersed with some interesting special cheeses on occasion, maybe some more Camembert and some bacteria-ripened cheeses.

Ooops, got distracted.   You can always sell some milk for pet use only and for soapmaking.    Strictly, of course.


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## kstaven (Sep 4, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Ooops, got distracted.   You can always sell some milk for pet use only and for soapmaking.    Strictly, of course.


Those folks are getting busted regularly these days. So not an avenue I would take at all. This is coming from one who does run a herd share besides a dairy.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 4, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

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X2, in PA the Amish are being brought to task for what they are selling.


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## freemotion (Sep 4, 2011)

So it is now not legal to sell raw milk for puppies and soapmaking?  Or the seller does some winking to the buyer and then a spy comes in?  Yikes.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 4, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> So it is now not legal to sell raw milk for puppies and soapmaking?  Or the seller does some winking to the buyer and then a spy comes in?  Yikes.


Shame isn't it.  But unfortunately that seems the way some feel how to control.  It's the "They know what's better" mentality.  

BTW, my thoughts of  doesn't send in the spies.  It shouts out the true information and thinks you know what's best for you.  They hate that here in New Jersey.   Oh well.


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## elevan (Sep 4, 2011)

Ms. Research said:
			
		

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The Amish were busted for selling across state lines...a minor technicality that they were able to get them on.  I don't remember the full extent of the story but obviously the "long arm of the law" was pretty intent to bust them with the sting operation that they set up.  I really think they could have used their resources on busting a more harmful practice...like maybe illicit drugs...




			
				freemotion said:
			
		

> So it is now not legal to sell raw milk for puppies and soapmaking?  Or the seller does some winking to the buyer and then a spy comes in?  Yikes.


I think it's probably the wink wink with a spy around.

IMO - If you're gonna sell it in a state where it's illegal...label it as PET FOOD and talk about it as pet food and never, ever mention human consumption...don't even say that you drink it.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 4, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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And that's the true shame of all of this nonsense in a nutshell.  Wow, making you all go underground for selling something that others might thinks not right because it doesn't have THEIR label on it.  What is this Country coming too.


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## elevan (Sep 4, 2011)

Different state but here's an article from yesterday about a Milk Herd Share.  Authorities are trying to crack down and farmers are trying to fight back.
http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_18821463
http://news.santacruz.com/2011/09/02/the_great_santa_cruz_milk-in


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## jmsim93 (Sep 4, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Many (myself included) who looked into this ended up not doing it because of the harassment that it invites.  Sadly.  My husband and I manage to use about two gallons of milk a day during "the season."  We drink some, make kefir, yogurt, ice cream, soups, salad dressings, I'm making a cheesecake for company tomorrow, and I make cheese about 2-3 times a week, working with 4+ gallons each time.  Oh, and I make goat's milk soap.  Towards the end of the season I'll freeze lots to get us through the does' late pregnancies and kidding.  Then a lot of the milk will go to feeding the kids until they are all sold....then the cheesemaking starts up again.
> 
> I have pounds and pounds of chevre and feta in the freezer and many wheels of Gouda in the basement fridge.  Next up:  Cheddar, cheddar, and more cheddar!  Interspersed with some interesting special cheeses on occasion, maybe some more Camembert and some bacteria-ripened cheeses.


I want to come to YOUR HOUSE!!!!


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## kstaven (Sep 4, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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I agree there are much more important things to do. Especially when these groups cry broke and under funded.

If you track the story back further you will find it started long before what you refer too. No doubt hundreds of thousands wasted on the amish over the years trying to bust them.


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## freemotion (Sep 4, 2011)

jmsim93 said:
			
		

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The cheesecake was amazing.  I updated the recipe on a thread just now on the sister site, sufficientself, link at bottom of page.  I've been working on this recipe and now it is about as close to where I want it as I can get it.  All healthy ingredients, too.  Super yum!

Sorry for the hijack, but we are talking about cheesecake here.....something sacred!


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## sawfish99 (Sep 5, 2011)

While I appreciate all the general commentary and discussion, does anyone know of specific legality for CT?


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## elevan (Sep 5, 2011)

sawfish99 said:
			
		

> While I appreciate all the general commentary and discussion, does anyone know of specific legality for CT?


I did a search for you but didn't come up with anything...  http://www.animallaw.com/LawSearch.cfm


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## sawfish99 (Sep 5, 2011)

According to Farmers-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund:
The law in Connecticut now is that the operation of a herd share by an unlicensed farmer is illegal.  In addition, unlicensed farms can only produce raw milk and any other raw milk product for "personal consumption or for consumption by immediate family members."  It is now against the law for an unlicensed farmer even to serve raw milk to a guest. 

However, when you actually read the state statute about raw milk, the section is referring to the sale of raw milk and makes an exception for family use.  The entire legal defense about herd shares is there is no sale of milk because all members own the goat.  Therefore, it should still be legal.  No where in the state statute does it address the subject of herd share programs.  

Separately, there is legislation before the state this year to study the benifits of herd share programs and possible changes that may be needed in statutes to allow them.  That would indicate herd shares are an identified gray area within the state law.  

I'm going to see if I can get a straight forward answer from the Dept of Agriculture tomorrow morning.


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## sawfish99 (Sep 6, 2011)

I spoke with the Dept of Agriculture and they confirmed that in their view, Herd Sharing is illegal based on the Statute I referrenced before.  The only way to transfer milk collected on your property to someone else is by being a licensed dairy.


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## Tapsmom (Sep 6, 2011)

Are there any groups active in CT that might work with Congress?  I.e. for those of us who also own horses we have the CT Horse Council and we can work with them.  If there are any goat groups that might do the same I would gladly join in  I am also in CT.  I've only owned goats for a week, though.  So I don't know too much yet lol.


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## sawfish99 (Sep 6, 2011)

Tapsmom said:
			
		

> Are there any groups active in CT that might work with Congress?  I.e. for those of us who also own horses we have the CT Horse Council and we can work with them.  If there are any goat groups that might do the same I would gladly join in  I am also in CT.  I've only owned goats for a week, though.  So I don't know too much yet lol.


I'm not sure who is pushing the issue, but there are bills before the 2011 state legislature for the Dept of Ag to research the impact and benefits of herd sharing.  From the discussion with Dept of Ag, they do not expect to favorably endorse this.

Where in CT?  We live in North Stonington.  Goats are not necessarily out for us, but dissappointed that we can't sell the excess milk.


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## elevan (Sep 6, 2011)

The USDA is trying to crack down on herdshares and milkshares so if you want to change things you might need to go a little higher than your state congress...


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## SheepGirl (Sep 6, 2011)

Just a little question: if you were to sell raw milk _strictly_ for soap making or pet use or any non-human consumption use, and you make the purchaser sign a contract, would you still be liable for selling raw milk? (If that makes any sense.)


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## Livinwright Farm (Sep 6, 2011)

I don't know about CT, but here in NH RAW milk is okay to sell direct from the farm or delivered by the farm. AND I recently found out that you only require a permit & FDA inspection: if you sell 20+ quarts per day of RAW milk.   Given that we are just a small backyard dairy, we would never be selling that much milk in 1 day, so we are in the clear.  Also, there is technically a loop hole for selling chicks/chickens. All that needs to be done is specifying that your chicks/chickens are PO/NFF(Pets Only/ Not For Food) on the reciept for the buyer.  No wink wink nudge nudge needed... if someone wants to take their pet and kill it, that is their deal. We cannot be held responsible for the new owner's actions after the animal leaves our farm.


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## kstaven (Sep 6, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> The USDA is trying to crack down on herdshares and milkshares so if you want to change things you might need to go a little higher than your state congress...


There are a few groups out there working on this.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 6, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

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Seriously glad to hear that.


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## kstaven (Sep 7, 2011)

4F and ARMI have working groups across Canada and the U.S. Along with a few wings overseas. Has taken a long time to bring people together and out of the shadows.


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## Ms. Research (Sep 7, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> 4F and ARMI have working groups across Canada and the U.S. Along with a few wings overseas. Has taken a long time to bring people together and out of the shadows.


Understand completely.     for their persistence.  Wishing them luck.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 8, 2011)

The Amish were busted for selling across state lines...a minor technicality that they were able to get them on.  I don't remember the full extent of the story but obviously the "long arm of the law" was pretty intent to bust them with the sting operation that they set up.  I really think they could have used their resources on busting a more harmful practice...like maybe illicit drugs...


LMAO, ain't that the truth. I can't stand stupid laws. The laws are supposed to protect people not just help people go on a power trip & jump all over other people for minor stupid technicalities. If someone buys raw milk meant for soap making & pet use for human consumption under the knowledge that it may be harmful to them in some way & chooses to use it for that purpose anyway after weighing the risk & pros & cons that should be their choice. However, if you are selling it & human consumption is against the law you should not in any way advertise it as such.


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