# Hollowing out? Maybe? Im bad at this lol



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 11, 2020)

Is this considered "hollowing out" or not yet?



We have no idea how far along she is but she has a bag that's about the size of a medium cantaloupe and firm. I really hope she waits a few days. The weather is going to be horrible this weekend.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2020)

You got this. You show all the signs of a new Sheep mommy. 
Worry————-check
Concern———-check
Posting pictures—check
Bag exam———-check
Ask advice———check
Bad weather——check
Is it time yet?——check
👍👍


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 11, 2020)

Baymule said:


> You got this. You show all the signs of a new Sheep mommy.
> Worry————-check
> Concern———-check
> Posting pictures—check
> ...


What can I say? We all have these questions at one point or another though. 

Btw I got my answer:



This just happened about 10 minutes ago. She was so big I would have swore there were two In there but i think she is done.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2020)

Beautiful lamb! Ewe or ewe with “extra parts?” LOL


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 11, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Beautiful lamb! Ewe or ewe with “extra parts?” LOL


I'm 3/3 for ram lambs this year


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2020)

Fluffy_Flock said:


> I'm 3/3 for ram lambs this year


Be sure to castrate, band or cut before they get too old. They WILL breed at 2 months old! I’ve seen ram lambs with their noses stuck all up in the ewes lady business at 28 days old. Horny little stinkers!


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 11, 2020)

Oh lordy.....

I'm surprised how fat she is still. My other mamas went down in size a lot more after birth. I guess she is just a tubby girl lol


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2020)

I have  a ewe that has a bag like a dairy goat, she bags up WEEKS before birth and she gets huge.










​
This is Miranda Lambert on the right front, she has a hanging down pot belly even when she is not pregnant. She lambed twins, the black lamb with the white tail next to her is hers. Too bad it wasn't a ewe lamb!





​


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2020)

I forgot to add that if you don't castrate the ram lambs, wean them at 2 months old and keep them separated.


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 11, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I forgot to add that if you don't castrate the ram lambs, wean them at 2 months old and keep them separated.


I'm thinking that is what we are going to have to do. We don't have banding equipment and I hear they put on weight better when they aren't castrated. I have to make a decision here soon who I'm going to keep of my ram lambs as the sire for the next generation. The first born looks like he is going to be a real beast but my bottle lamb could be great too but he is still young yet. Just going to have to wait and see. The nice thing is the two older ram lambs are not related to anyone currently in my herd so no mating back to moms.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2020)

Don't keep the bottle baby, send him to freezer camp. A bottle fed ram lamb will grow up to have no fear or respect for you-and will be dangerous.


----------



## purplequeenvt (Apr 11, 2020)

Fluffy_Flock said:


> I'm thinking that is what we are going to have to do. We don't have banding equipment and I hear they put on weight better when they aren't castrated. I have to make a decision here soon who I'm going to keep of my ram lambs as the sire for the next generation. The first born looks like he is going to be a real beast but my bottle lamb could be great too but he is still young yet. Just going to have to wait and see. The nice thing is the two older ram lambs are not related to anyone currently in my herd so no mating back to moms.



Given how new you are to sheep, I would highly recommend NOT keeping your bottle ram lamb intact/using him as a breeding ram. Bottle rams are notoriously badly behaved as breeding rams because they didn’t learn to respect humans the way a normal ram would. It’s too easy to turn them into monsters. 

Personally, I wouldn’t hesitate to use a bottle ram as my breeding ram, (provided that he was raised by me) but I have 20 years of sheep experience.


----------



## Sheepshape (Apr 12, 2020)

I don't have a problem with bottle lambs becoming breeding rams....but you have to carefully assess the personality of the ram lamb. Part nature, part nurture, they say, but it always seems to me that the inherent nature of the animal is the key. You can only work with whatever raw material you have.

Here's Dexter.






All muscle, sweet nature.





Dexter is 3 years old, was bottle reared, and is a total sweetheart. Still loves to be hugged and never aggressive, even when he has his 'harem'. A real gentleman around the ladies, too. 

He is already father to about 150 lambs.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 12, 2020)

Both @purplequeenvt and @Sheepshape are long time very well qualified shepherds. They know their sheep, they know their natures and they know how to raise them. They both are outstanding members here on BYH. When they offer advice, listen carefully. 

I started with Dorper cross bred sheep and still have cross bred sheep, a mix of Dorper and Katahdin. I am moving more in the Katahdin sheep because I like their nature. It goes back to what Sheepshape said about their nature. We drove to Tennessee to get Ringo from Mike CHS because of his nature. He is a sweetheart, loves attention, loves to be brushed, loves treats and just loves to be the center of attention. I have little granddaughters and I sure didn't want them anywhere near the Dorper ram. He hit me every chance he got. I will eventually get a few registered Katahdin ewes, but I will keep my starter ewes until they go to that big green grassy sheep pasture in the sky.


----------



## Sheepshape (Apr 12, 2020)

Baymule.....you are too kind. However, experience does help a lot. Most of what I know I learnt from old shepherds in the area, but YouTube videos and fora such as this are a priceless source of knowledge.

Thankfully folk on this site don't adopt that horrid attitude of 'What, so you don't know what to do about ....."(supply you own sentence end)....that attitude is SO unhelpful, pointless and just plain nasty. Why should anyone know the ins and outs of an animal that they have just started to care for?

So, for anyone scared to ask 'cos you may feel foolish.......NO YOU WILL NOT.....ask away, and learn as we have all had to learn. Every year I learn quite a few new things, and also learn how little I know about some things!


----------



## Baymule (Apr 13, 2020)

I've only had sheep for 5 years. During that time, I have learned innovative ways to kill several out of ignorance. If I can pass on what I have learned, I am always happy to do so, but mostly my sheep have been healthy, given birth with little to no problems and I have not had the problems that surface when farming. My sheep are tough, despite my best efforts, they are surviving just fine. LOL LOL


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 15, 2020)

Definitely send bottle baby to freezer camp for a above reasons.  Bottle fed rams can be dangerous unless they are trained properly to behave with their owners.  All dairy goat bucks are bottle babies too but they have a definite rutting season.  However, if not properly trained they can be dangerous as can stud horses and bulls if not properly handled.  Rams are often nasty year round.  We had one that was a definite killer.  Our other rams are docile and easy going but I never turn my back on a ram when I am in the pen.  We have 3 breeding rams now and they are fairly easy to handle.  Mama raised rams learn their place from mama and the others in the flock.  you have to teach your bottle baby that he is not a person, and can't play with you.  You need to discipline him if he tries to jump on you or butt you.  you should also halter break him.  Unfortunately bottle lambs and kids are so darn cute that people tend to forget how big they will get until they have allowed them to learn bad habits.  Even hen keeping bottle raised ewe lambs, you need to train them in good behavior.

That said, I would _still _put him in the freezer  You just got some nice new sheep and you want to keep the best ram lamb you have for that.  The bottle lamb is not the best one to keep.  *My* *main reason for not keeping him* *is that he is a bottle baby because his mama didn't make enough milk to raise him!   If his mama didn't produce enough milk to feed him, why would you consider breeding that low milk yield trait into your flock?  *

So, when choosing which of your other 2 ram lambs to keep, remember that you want a long ram, with lots of length in the loin - the distance between the hip and the ribs.  Then you want one that is wide across the loin.  And finally you want one that has a thick, meaty rump and leg with the meat carried well down the leg into the twist..  Those are the main areas where all the meat is, so choose wisely.  If one has a gentle docile temperament while the other is wild and crazy, that would also come into the equation.

Next year keep all the ewe lambs, and save up for a good Dorper ram that is carrying lots of meat, from a fertile line with lots of milk and good mothering ability.  The ram is half the herd, don't keep one just because he is your baby or you love him.  Go for the meat.  Of course, if the 2 lambs are equal, go for the cute one!


----------



## Baymule (Apr 15, 2020)

Thus speaks yet another sheep Guru.


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 15, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Definitely send bottle baby to freezer camp for a above reasons.  Bottle fed rams can be dangerous unless they are trained properly to behave with their owners.  All dairy goat bucks are bottle babies too but they have a definite rutting season.  However, if not properly trained they can be dangerous as can stud horses and bulls if not properly handled.  Rams are often nasty year round.  We had one that was a definite killer.  Our other rams are docile and easy going but I never turn my back on a ram when I am in the pen.  We have 3 breeding rams now and they are fairly easy to handle.  Mama raised rams learn their place from mama and the others in the flock.  you have to teach your bottle baby that he is not a person, and can't play with you.  You need to discipline him if he tries to jump on you or butt you.  you should also halter break him.  Unfortunately bottle lambs and kids are so darn cute that people tend to forget how big they will get until they have allowed them to learn bad habits.  Even hen keeping bottle raised ewe lambs, you need to train them in good behavior.
> 
> That said, I would _still _put him in the freezer  You just got some nice new sheep and you want to keep the best ram lamb you have for that.  The bottle lamb is not the best one to keep.  *My* *main reason for not keeping him* *is that he is a bottle baby because his mama didn't make enough milk to raise him!   If his mama didn't produce enough milk to feed him, why would you consider breeding that low milk yield trait into your flock?  *
> 
> ...


So he turned into a bottle baby at almost 3 weeks when his mom died suddenly. She was old and had a heart attack when we caught her to vaccinate and worm her. I will get some good pictures of my two rams so you can see what I'm working with. I like the idea of halter training him. I definitely hear what everyone is saying loud and clear but the only reason I'm not quick to make that decision is because my bottle ram is quite gorgeous and I think of the two has better genetcs and proportions. I would really like to continue his line in my flock.


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 15, 2020)

luckily I have some time to make some decisions.


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 15, 2020)

Sorry I do tend to give too much advice.    

Pictures are always good.


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 15, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Sorry I do tend to give too much advice.
> 
> Pictures are always good.


No I always love advice! Please don't hold back 

I just realized that the bottle baby is in my profile picture. That was him at about 1-2 weeks old though so he is kinda scrawny in that picture compared to today. 


he is about 4 weeks here

black head second from the right is my other ram. He is about 3 months old here. He is a bit of a butt head lol (no pun intended) but he is meaty.

I will take better pictures tomorrow


----------



## Sheepshape (Apr 16, 2020)

I don't disagree with what folk are saying about bottle lambs, but individual circumstances always come into play. I'm a longstanding vegetarian (near vegan), so my freezer isn't for lambs.Over here we cannot slaughter our own animals (not that I want to). They have to go to a licensed abattoir  which has veterinary input.

Why was the lamb a bottle lamb? Was he a triplet...though to be too much for mum to cope with? Did mum die? Was he rejected by her? etc. I personally only leave triplets with young, fit, fairly fat  ewes as it can be too much for her to cope with under less than ideal circumstances. An episode of wet and cold weather can place a ewe under stress and temporarily drop her milk supply.Over-suckling by triplets will then likely lead to mastitis.

Mum had a low milk supply. .....Is she ill? Does she have mastitis? Neither of these are heritable traits. If she had a low milk production because of an illness or udder condition, there's nothing wrong with her lamb's genetics.

Personality and temperament of the ram matter to me a lot, though he has to look right, too. Aggression is a heritable trait. I like the 'Gentleman Ram'. I want a ram that I can feel safe with when I have to treat him.

At the end of the day, there's a lot of factors to take into account when deciding which rams go and which stay.


----------



## Fluffy_Flock (Apr 16, 2020)

There is about a month difference between the two but they are almost the same height. Bottom is the bottle lamb and he just got weaned this week. He was not happy 🤣

It's hard for me to picture what these guys will look like when they grow up.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 16, 2020)

They are both nice looking boys. They can change as they grow, so hold off on any decision until they get older.


----------



## Ridgetop (Apr 17, 2020)

Hard to tell at this age and they will change as they grow.  You have time to decide which one to keep.  The other can go in the freezer as late as 12 months without any ram taint to the meat.  One year DS1 kept "Mufasa" as a ram because he was a lovely silver color.  DS1 bred him to all his ewes, then we ate him.  He tasted fine.  All his lambs were white anyway.  LOL


----------

