# Meat rabbit feed



## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 6, 2016)

We will be moving and buying my aunt and uncles 5acre small farm. We are moving this year but wont be introducing meat rabbits till later next year. So I am just doing my work at gathering the information needed to have a successful rabbit production.

I will create different threads for each of my questions just to keep my info gathering organized lol

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When we start doing meat rabbits we ideally are thinking of the approach of non fast grow out where they are on only pellets. We prefer a slower grow out (not too slow) where they are getting a more rounded out semi natural diet.

Where were going to come up with a 25% rabbit pellet diet maximum. Where they are getting pellets just to make sure the nutrients needed are being received for sure.

but were thinking of a mix like this:
steamed rolled barley
steamed rolled oats
pellets (prob by themselves in the evening)
grass 
ground alfalfa (can get it from our feed store)
timothy hay and sunflower seeds as a treat like once a week or so

they would also have access to hay. Is there other grains that are good for meat rabbits that helps them to put on the weight/meat in a more natural way, other than the way of a 100% strict pellet only diet?

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I know you shouldn't be too friendly with your food source. but we want even our meat rabbits to have a healthy natural grow out as much as we can do that for them. in our mind it is allow us to give them a good life before we do the act and they feed us. They are rabbits so I don't see us not interacting with them.

I've told they kids even if they name them doesn't mean it stops them from being ate lol. I think we will make the rule that the names have to be the type of food you can make with them if they really feel like they need to name them. I know some think bad idea but they name our buff orps who we use as dual purpose birds and it has yet to bother them from eating greenie (color of the leg band lol) and they like to watch the process (we homeschool and they have learned a lot, plus it's helped them respect life and understand death better. no we never forced them to watch they got interested in watching the process when I processed our first deer by hand).


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 6, 2016)

Welcome to BYH!! Your meat rabbit diet looks great. The rabbits will really enjoy it. Just be careful with too many concentrates. They can make rabbits overweight, lowering production levels. Also, do not feed rabbits under 5 months old grass. It can give them digestive problems and diarrea, which can be fatal for smaller kits. Timothy hay is extremely healthy for rabbits. They need hay or other roughage for their digestive tract to function well, and to wear down their teeth. Good luck, and happy rabbiting!!


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## Bruce (Oct 6, 2016)

How about some nice free range forage? The wild rabbits around here seem to grow quite well on what they find on their own.

Um, just read @DutchBunny03 's response. No grass? Is there something special about domestic rabbits? Clearly no one is stopping the wild bunnies from eating whatever is in front of their whiskers. They would fit in a teacup when they first come out in the open without a parental unit to teach or watch over them.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 6, 2016)

Hi and welcome.  I don't know much about rabbits (boy are they cute though!) I just wanted to say welcome from another homeschooling family who raises and processes their own meat.  My daughter loves to watch my husband process chickens and turkeys.  This year (as in,  in the next week or two)  she'll see how to process a pig.  We name our pigs,  but she knows they're for food.  She's used to it,  I guess.  I think it's fantastic for kids to know where their food comes from.  Good luck and I look forward to  hearing about your journey!


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 6, 2016)

The domestic rabbit was brought about by excessive inbreeding. As you should know, too much inbreeding leads to major problems. In the development of the domestic rabbit, the inbreeding led to a more sensitive digestive system than its wild predecessors. Young rabbits simply cannot tolerate green foods. I learned this the hard way, and some of my rabbits got VERY sick because of being fed grass and other plants to early.


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## Bruce (Oct 6, 2016)

Maybe it is time to start over with wild rabbits  

Though I have to admit, I don't think there is a lot of meat on the adult rabbits around here.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 6, 2016)

The domestic rabbit was developed from the European wild rabbit, not the North American wild rabbit. European wild rabbits are much bigger. Even if we were to "start over", the same thing would still happen. To isolate desired characteristics, such as fur types, coat patterns, size, feed-meat conversion ratio, and ear type, inbreeding is necessary.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 7, 2016)

Actually, the European wild rabbit (2 1/2 to 5 1/2 pounds) is not significantly larger than the Eastern cottontail (2 to 4 1/2 pounds). And as we all know, it is illegal to keep North American wild species in captivity unless you have a permit . . . but that is beside the point. 

The problem with domestic rabbits has to do with how they are raised. Rabbits have been kept since Roman times, and unless the owner had a large walled garden like the ancient Romans had, the rabbits had to be fed something - plant material that was either gathered or raised by the owner . Pelleted rabbit diets only became available less than a century ago, and people found them so convenient they pretty much stopped feeding anything else. Rabbits that do well are the ones that get to parent the next generation, so the ones that could survive and even thrive on this very unnatural diet were the ones that got to contribute to the gene pool. The food was being engineered for the rabbits, and the rabbits engineered for the food - that's not inbreeding, it's artificial selection; it can be done regardless of the animals' ancestry.

A digestive system produces enzymes to digest the food that an animal eats. In many cases, the enzymes work in a lock-and-key relationship with the dietary item - one specific enzyme deals with one specific sugar, for example. It takes energy to produce enzymes; most organisms don't waste energy producing things they won't use. That is why most adult animals are, in effect, lactose intolerant - they made lactase to digest lactose as babies, but since they wouldn't normally be exposed to lactose (which is only found in milk) after weaning age, their bodies stopped producing the lactase. People from cultures that normally consume dairy products may continue to produce lactase their entire lives, while people whose ancestors' traditional diets don't include dairy usually don't produce lactose past childhood. 

A digestive system needs time to adjust to new items. How many people have had horses get into real trouble by scarfing down large quantities of something the horse could eat safely in more measured doses? If you turn a horse that has had only hay for months into a lush pasture, you may wind up with a whopper of a vet bill; you might even kill it. Turn the horse out for a little while every day, and eventually, he can live out there; his digestive system will have had time to adjust the enzymes it produces to the change in diet (and the beneficial bacteria in the digestive system will have had time to adjust as well). The domestic rabbit can deal with green food, but it needs to be introduced slowly. Some people manage to keep rabbits in tractors or colonies with very little if any pelleted feed, but they had to work their way to that point. I've never tried it myself, so I can't comment on how that works . . . the nearest thing I've had to a rabbit on a "wild diet" was one that escaped at about 8 weeks old, and wandered loose on our acreage for a couple of months before it was recaptured. It was significantly smaller than its siblings, and remained stunted its entire life (this may be more of an indication of a lack of suitable forage than the rabbit's inability to use what it ate, I don't know. Heaven knows, we seldom see more than one or two wild rabbits around here).

As regards the OP's prospective diet for the rabbits - grains are not a normal part of a rabbit's diet, so they need to be fed with care. Also, rabbits need a certain amount of structure to be able to pick up a food item. They probably won't be able to eat ground alfalfa, and straight alfalfa pellets are very hard; alfalfa cubes might work better.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 7, 2016)

Grains are very healthy for rabbits. I am a bit wary of too much grain(it can lead to obesity, which can result in the death of the dam during kindling) but I do use oats. There is a noticeable difference between rabbits fed oats and rabbits not fed oats, and the difference is in the fur. Oats give the coat extra sheen, which helps with show rabbits.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> Hi and welcome.  I don't know much about rabbits (boy are they cute though!) I just wanted to say welcome from another homeschooling family who raises and processes their own meat.  My daughter loves to watch my husband process chickens and turkeys.  This year (as in,  in the next week or two)  she'll see how to process a pig.  We name our pigs,  but she knows they're for food.  She's used to it,  I guess.  I think it's fantastic for kids to know where their food comes from.  Good luck and I look forward to  hearing about your journey!



Awesome to meet another homeschooling family who also does stuff similar and hows kids enjoy the process of that type of lifestyle, with processing your own meat.

You'll have to let me know how the pig thing goes... weve considered it but we haven't put it into the possibility pile until we learn how/how hard it is to do the initial kill on a pig that is the most human way you can do it.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> Grains are very healthy for rabbits. I am a bit wary of too much grain(it can lead to obesity, which can result in the death of the dam during kindling) but I do use oats. There is a noticeable difference between rabbits fed oats and rabbits not fed oats, and the difference is in the fur. Oats give the coat extra sheen, which helps with show rabbits.



My response is also to your first response to me.

what is a healthy percentage of a grain mix to rabbit pellets... or should I say ideally?

We plan on having them in a fenced in area on grass so they can self forage (which wire on the bottom so they can't dig out), i only planned on giving them grass clippings to help aid when the grass in their area is short enough that they can't really nibble at it through the fencing on the bottom, but the clippings would be right when we are actually mowing so fresh. It be a little extra work for me using our bagging push mower on the property but worth it as long as i dont get sick rabbits.

they would only get locked up in their ground level cages in that run area at night for other security. 

So if the kits are naturally raised by the mom and she takes them out in the run area do you still have to worry about the grass eating?


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

A healthy pellet/grain ratio is 3:1. For example, 1 cup pellets and 1/3 cup oats. The grass would not be as big of a problem if the kits were introduced to it very slowly. You do not want them in the hutch eating nothing but pellets and hay one day, but eating tons of grass the next. Any sudden change like that in a rabbits diet can be fatal.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> A healthy pellet/grain ratio is 3:1. For example, 1 cup pellets and 1/3 cup oats. The grass would not be as big of a problem if the kits were introduced to it very slowly. You do not want them in the hutch eating nothing but pellets and hay one day, but eating tons of grass the next. Any sudden change like that in a rabbits diet can be fatal.



Okay good to know...

My plan was to have the pellets and grain mix as source that is available if they want to eat it, but grass and timothy hay, alfalfa hay (or the cubes), and mineral/salt blocks always available from day one when we start the "colony setup"

I just need to find if maybe the feed store has timothy hay in a larger option, cuz ruralking only has the small option of a bale and in my opinion the price could be better lol. 

Could you get away with getting the alfalfa squares/cubes that are also feed to horses, they are the same size of the rabbit ones, we can just get a bigger bag of those here?

My husband asked me if rabbits can have the allstock feed (it has molasis etc. in it that is able to be feed to sheep, goats, pretty much all livestock) as a treat with the sunflower seeds that we would use as a treat, since told they they could have those but not too much cuz it could cause them to put on too much fat.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

I think the alfalfa cubes for horses would be fine for rabbits. I use horse feed hay for mine, because it is much cheaper than what my feed store has for rabbits. The rabbits eat it, and it hasn't caused any problems. I buy baled hay, so it is a little different, but the horse hay cubes should be fine. Rabbits don't need mineral or salt blocks. The pellets have salt and minerals in them. Be careful with mixing grains and pellets. Rabbits will pick out the grains, and leave the pellets in the feeder, when what they really need is in the pellets. Allstock feed should not be given to the rabbits for a normal feed, but is great for treats.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> I think the alfalfa cubes for horses would be fine for rabbits. I use horse feed hay for mine, because it is much cheaper than what my feed store has for rabbits. The rabbits eat it, and it hasn't caused any problems. I buy baled hay, so it is a little different, but the horse hay cubes should be fine. Rabbits don't need mineral or salt blocks. The pellets have salt and minerals in them. Be careful with mixing grains and pellets. Rabbits will pick out the grains, and leave the pellets in the feeder, when what they really need is in the pellets. Allstock feed should not be given to the rabbits for a normal feed, but is great for treats.



Thanks for the info.

its funny how the horse stuff that looks exactly the same as the rabbit equivalent is cheaper, youd think it be the other way around.

My father and law supplies us in hay, we usually use it as bedding for the chickens but will nave a new use for it too.

I figured a feeder for the pellets and either in the morning we'd give them their scoop of mixed grains out in one of those rubber bowls usually used for horses (the smaller ones), where any of their treats would go. Id do it on my 4am animal check (its when the hubby gets up for work, not my actual choice of getting up id prefer 530 lol) this way its there when I then go out and open up their ground hutches.

Now the timothy hay and the alfalfa cubes would be there for them any time. My next step is finding a good deal on timothy hay then hopefully what I have seen or figure out how to grow it ourselves to supplement with what we can get at the store.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 10, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> I think the alfalfa cubes for horses would be fine for rabbits. I use horse feed hay for mine, because it is much cheaper than what my feed store has for rabbits. The rabbits eat it, and it hasn't caused any problems. I buy baled hay, so it is a little different, but the horse hay cubes should be fine. Rabbits don't need mineral or salt blocks. The pellets have salt and minerals in them. Be careful with mixing grains and pellets. Rabbits will pick out the grains, and leave the pellets in the feeder, when what they really need is in the pellets. Allstock feed should not be given to the rabbits for a normal feed, but is great for treats.



oh and the only reason i said something about the mineral and salt wheels is because I use to do minilops for 4h and thats what we were taught to do or at least I was told to do as a kid. but good to know not so much needed.

With chewing are those painted blocks in the rabbit isle a good thing or could we put in branches for them to chew on if they wanted to?


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 10, 2016)

There has been alot of progress in rabbit raising has happened in the last couple decades, so salt and mineral wheels may very well have been needed when you were a kid. The painted blocks and branches are both ok, but rabbits prefer tree branches. I have both, and my rabbits devour the branches, but barely touch the blocks. You may want to google trees safe for rabbit food to find good trees for your rabbits in your area.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 11, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> There has been alot of progress in rabbit raising has happened in the last couple decades, so salt and mineral wheels may very well have been needed when you were a kid. The painted blocks and branches are both ok, but rabbits prefer tree branches. I have both, and my rabbits devour the branches, but barely touch the blocks. You may want to google trees safe for rabbit food to find good trees for your rabbits in your area.



Thanks I never thought about looking up trees safe for rabbits. I guess I just thought it wouldn't matter.

Is it easier to look up things safe for rabbits, then looking up things unsafe for rabbits?


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## Bossroo (Oct 11, 2016)

Food for thought.  When one considers that millions of rabbits for University research as well as commercial operations feed hard 100% alfalfa  rabbit pellets without any other supplements or treats and that they are healthy  says something regarding what the pet owners are doing and the advise that they are giving to others.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 11, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Food for thought.  When one considers that millions of rabbits for University research as well as commercial operations feed hard 100% alfalfa  rabbit pellets without any other supplements or treats and that they are healthy  says something regarding what the pet owners are doing and the advise that they are giving to others.



I get where you are coming from and the point trying to be made.

But there are more factors involved here then just feed and what those type of things say.

A university and commercial operations individually have their own agenda for the rabbits so how they go about it, "they" will produce a "healthy" rabbit to those standards

A personal rabbit setup is no different. There is an agenda here. 1. either for pets and or selling to say 4h for show or 2. for meat rabbits and or selling live rabbits again as an ex. to 4hers as meat rabbit ... So each agenda will have a different derived standard to what is classified a "healthy" rabbit.

No two agendas will have the exact same standards that says yes the rabbit is "healthy". 

So by using your example. Let's say a University stats that an all alfalfa pellet no treats or other supplements produces a "healthy" rabbit. 

1. what were their purpose for those rabbits
2. how were the rabbits house
3. what was the over all agenda for coming to this conclusion and decided what made the rabbits "healthy"

These studies and the answers to those questions may only work for those that want rabbits as pets, but not produce a very "healthy" rabbit for those that want it as meat.

Now the commercial part is no different same questions. You will come to the same conclusion, but with a twist.
The commercial standards may not be the "healthy" best for pet rabbits, but okay for general "health" meat rabbits, and only excellent "healthy" rabbits for those that are culling rabbits heavily through high rate production for meat.

There are so many factors in play with all these "studies" and "proofs" that ideally you can't say that they are greater information above others. 

Me personally I have found that it is better to ask someone first hand that has a similar agenda to the purpose of the animal as you. You can then combine that with other information that you can pull from those "studies" and other places on the internet to setup a system, in this case for rabbits, that works for you and will allow you to adjust as needed so that you get the end result wanted with the agenda you have for the animal.


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## Bossroo (Oct 11, 2016)

So I guess that Veterinarians , University researchers and commercial breeders have their own agenda to come up with a conclusion of what is "healthy" and the back yard rabbit owner knows better  ...      I'm confused


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 11, 2016)

Backyard raisers know their individual animals better, since they can spend more time with their rabbits. We have found that certain feeds produce certain characteristics by expiramentibg with whatever we can.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 11, 2016)

@minibackyardfarmer , I have found that birch, maple(both sugar and red), beech, and basswood are good for feeding rabbits. They can eat braches and leaves. No oak. Be careful with lactating does abd maple, I have heard that it dries up the milk supply. Baby rabbits cannot eat the green leaves, but can eat the fallen leaves during fall.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 11, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> @minibackyardfarmer , I have found that birch, maple(both sugar and red), beech, and basswood are good for feeding rabbits. They can eat braches and leaves. No oak. Be careful with lactating does abd maple, I have heard that it dries up the milk supply. Baby rabbits cannot eat the green leaves, but can eat the fallen leaves during fall.



Thanks

The property has a lot of pine... is pine a no or yes when it comes to rabbits? We give the branches to our chickens when needles are green, even tho some say no but its in moderation and they could get to them by themselves anyways lol.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 11, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> So I guess that Veterinarians , University researchers and commercial breeders have their own agenda to come up with a conclusion of what is "healthy" and the back yard rabbit owner knows better  ...      I'm confused



No one knows better

Vets are different they know pet standards and treat animals, most do, as individual patients so shouldnt even be a part of the discussion lol...

But yes backyard animal/farmers know their animals in their possession better than any stats derived from the animals they had in "their" possession. Those stats know nothing about your own animals, only you do, the stats are just base lines.

Id hate to go to a doctor who just treats me as the general stats and not as the individual through knowing me etc. The latter would make me healthier. Same goes with animals.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 11, 2016)

Pine is ok, you don't have to move the fallen needles or anything, but I wouldn't give the rabbits any more of it.


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## promiseacres (Oct 11, 2016)

Welcome to backyardherds.com 
we raise show bunnies, they get greens (dandelion, plantain, ect ) weekly. We feed Heinhold feed, it's a complete and they have several varieties for different rabbits.we also feed grass hay, BOSS and add ACV to their water. Rabbits love pinecones to play with and chew.
 The problem with mixing your own grains for any livestock is you don't always know exact nutritional values, therefore how much of each to mix in? Or how much to feed?  If you do go that route do add minerals. Nothing wrong with letting them graze, try to purchase breeding stock that is already adjusted to that type of lifestyle versus wire cages. It will be a trial and error unless you can find stock raised the way you prefer. Which will save you tons of time of working to get your stock adjusted to a new way of life.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 12, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> So I guess that Veterinarians , University researchers and commercial breeders have their own agenda to come up with a conclusion of what is "healthy" and the back yard rabbit owner knows better  ...      I'm confused



As the OP said, everybody has their own agenda. The researchers have the agenda of trying to find out what the actual nutritional requirements of the animals are - what to feed to get optimum growth and avoid nutritional deficiencies. The commercial breeders have the agenda of raising animals with maximum efficiency of time and effort, and at minimum cost. And the backyard breeder has an agenda. too. They have the agenda of "doing what's right for the animal." Welcome to the world of 'feel good farming,' where opinions matter more than hard data. The backyard breeder says they are trying to keep costs down, but they willingly sacrifice their time and, to a limited degree, their money to do what they believe improves the quality of life for their animals. They have no way of quantifying anything they do as to whether it works or not, but that doesn't matter, because what they are really doing is placating some inner demon rather than what you were doing, which was farming with an eye toward actually making a profit. So they'd rather not hear about the lessons you learned about the parasite and disease problems of animals on the ground, because being on the ground is more natural than cages, so it must be better for the animals in the long run. If the animals take twice as long to reach slaughter weight, they are content, because the animals were 'happier' during that time. They treat their animals like pets, rather than production units, and as long as they don't wind up with absolute, catastrophic failure, they can feel good about themselves - which is more important than getting a good return on their investment. Apples and oranges, my friend - I can see why you are confused.

@minibackyardfarmer - if that sounded like I was insulting you, I apologize. I am getting a bit cynical in my old age. I do understand what you are doing - you are like my husband, a tinkerer. There may be a product on the market that does precisely whatever it is that he wants to do, but he has an idea for a way to do something, so he builds his own (thing) with which to do it. It may work as well as the thing he could have bought, or not, but he did it his way, so he is happy. Sometimes, he winds up spending a lot of time and money finding out what doesn't work, and maybe even buys the other guy's widget in the long run, but he wanted to do things his way.  So though we know there is a way that is efficient and cost-effective,  you have your own idea about how you want to raise rabbits. I am not saying that one way is any "better" than another, this is the way you want to do it, and as long as you are happy with the results you get and your animals can't be said to be suffering from neglect or abuse, it's your business. Just be aware that some of the people whose advice you get may have lots of opinions and little if any education or experience to support them, and at the end of the day, opinions are only worth the paper they are printed on.

Good luck in your venture, and welcome to BYH!


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## Bossroo (Oct 12, 2016)

Why do you think a person that wants to become a Veterinarian does so ?  Almost without an exception they had and have pets of every discription as kids and in their teen years and care for their every need and well being.  After they graduate from Vet. School, they still care for all animals ( why do some think that they suddenly have lost all humane treatment of animals as researchers  and medical providers for ill animals?), but by then they have had the benefit of real world research in nutrition, housing physical health as well as mental health as well as their own idividual real world experiences of what makes each animal tick in their environment, what nutrition that they need and what foods supply the best source of that nutrition as well as what medications / treatments to cure what ails them.  The commercial breeders have the benefit of following the advice of the University Veterinarians,Researchers and Nutritionists in a quest to make a profit to pay for their livelyhood. And YES , they CARE GREATLY for their charges and provide the best resouces for them or they would fail miserably in their business venture.   As Bunnlady said - some of the people whose advice you get may have lots of opinions and little if any experience to support them , and at the end of the day, opinions are only worth the paper that they are printed on.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 12, 2016)

Bossroo said:


> Why do you think a person that wants to become a Veterinarian does so ?  Almost without an exception they had and have pets of every discription as kids and in their teen years and care for their every need and well being.  After they graduate from Vet. School, they still care for all animals ( why do some think that they suddenly have lost all humane treatment of animals as researchers  and medical providers for ill animals?), but by then they have had the benefit of real world research in nutrition, housing physical health as well as mental health as well as their own idividual real world experiences of what makes each animal tick in their environment, what nutrition that they need and what foods supply the best source of that nutrition as well as what medications / treatments to cure what ails them.  The commercial breeders have the benefit of following the advice of the University Veterinarians,Researchers and Nutritionists in a quest to make a profit to pay for their livelyhood. And YES , they CARE GREATLY for their charges and provide the best resouces for them or they would fail miserably in their business venture.   As Bunnlady said - some of the people whose advice you get may have lots of opinions and little if any experience to support them , and at the end of the day, opinions are only worth the paper that they are printed on.



Yes so true... just like your comment about commercial vets etc. was way off topic and actually gave no value other then drama and a debate. That isn't what I was looking for.

As I said before all the info and stats are just base lines each individual/animal is going to be different from the next... but anyways we can end the conversation about "stats" and commercial, universities, etc. as no where does that convo answer questions I had sorry.


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## animalmom (Oct 12, 2016)

As a meat rabbit breeder, I think @Bossroo's point is we find the research done by other institutions to be very, very helpful if for no other reason it keeps us from reinventing the wheel every time someone takes the notion that they are going to breed rabbits.

Now I agree that everyone has an opinion on what is best for their rabbits/set-up/farm/monetary situation, etc, nevertheless when it boils down to feeding your livestock the FIRST place one goes is to feed store to see what is carried.  A good rabbit pellet is well balanced with protein, minerals, and fiber.  A breeder may not like this pellet because it contains corn.  Another breeder may not like that pellet because it contains soy.  A third breeder may not like... ad nauseam.  Bottom line is one must start somewhere.  We all can not be experts in chemistry, biology, animal husbandry and economics.

I use the same rabbit pellets today that I have used since I brought my first rabbits home.  It is a good pellet that allows me the flexibility to supplement with greens and fruit from the garden.  In the winter this pellet is 99% of their diet as I, even in the Great Lone Star State, can not grow vegetables year round.  We don't even have dandelions year round.

Let us all remember that whatever the livestock happens to be, we stand on the shoulders of the feed industry for the BASIC nutrition of our animals.  

A rabbit is a rabbit and will use what ever food is presented to it to stay alive and, we trust, flourish.  Your rabbits nutritional needs are NO DIFFERENT from my rabbits.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 12, 2016)

animalmom said:


> As a meat rabbit breeder, I think @Bossroo's point is we find the research done by other institutions to be very, very helpful if for no other reason it keeps us from reinventing the wheel every time someone takes the notion that they are going to breed rabbits.
> 
> Now I agree that everyone has an opinion on what is best for their rabbits/set-up/farm/monetary situation, etc, nevertheless when it boils down to feeding your livestock the FIRST place one goes is to feed store to see what is carried.  A good rabbit pellet is well balanced with protein, minerals, and fiber.  A breeder may not like this pellet because it contains corn.  Another breeder may not like that pellet because it contains soy.  A third breeder may not like... ad nauseam.  Bottom line is one must start somewhere.  We all can not be experts in chemistry, biology, animal husbandry and economics.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I understood the point. I guess it was me coming off the concept like with our two dogs, yes there are studies/stats but our one dog doesn't fit the mold he is 100% healthy (by the vet) and hes 100% happy (by us lol) but he doesn't tolerate the more natural foods like taste of the wild etc. (how its recommended to give your dogs less filler etc... it let's just say our grass hates us when he eats that stuff lol) he has to have a 14% or less fat diet and sadly does better on the crappier food (we wish he could eat the better stuff), where our other dog flourishes on the better food.

I guess that was my point, but didn't know how to say it, that those stats/recommendations are just base lines that you approach the animal with but need to remember that each animal even though the same type of animal may be different (doesn't mean it isnt healthy) and their diet may need adjusted to them which may go against the stats/recommendations. Thats all.

Trust me i know about opinions we've gotten many opinions and scoldings when it comes to our chickens, it just depends if it is coming from those pet chicken people, people using the chicken for the purpose of the breed of bird, and or those that forget chickens are chickens and they do have instincts we should trust. We feed our chickens layer feed, plus we mix some grains, add whole corn in the winter as snacks, and sunflower seeds with oil as snacks all year long... but they get grass, scraps okay for them, and we let them tell us foraging wise what they can and wont eat with their own natural instincts. We also add D.E. to their food every now and then, even dust them with it, to help keep them worm and mite etc. free (so far we have had no issues with anything and they are healthy and friendly... we use them for eggs and meat but we also give them human connection)

We will be feeding the meat rabbits pellets and know that wintertime they will prob eat it 99% of the diet like you said. It has been 20yrs give or take since I did rabbits for 4h and I know things have changed. My goal was for us from day one when we get meat rabbits is to provide them with a well rounded diet so they put on their weight naturally and not be to fast and not healthy or a lot of fat and not healthy.

I guess I am also going by the comment I've been told and even read that meat rabbits grow fast on pellets but doesn't mean that it is 100% a healthy growth weight and you can get a healthy rabbit and meat growth through a better diet then just pellets. So thats what I was curious about.

I also didn't want to give them something they couldn't or shouldn't have that would hurt them, for ex. the does with producing milk or the kits not/shouldn't eat under a certain age... since rabbits are farther from their wild counter parts then they were 20yrs ago.

we've thought about a rabbit hutch for summer time so they can graze, but also been told that disease is more likely. Which has also made me second think the colony idea, where my main purpose was to allow them access to grass when they wanted. We may end up doing a cage style so that we don't have to worry about disease or things spreading if only one rabbit happens to get something. 

Thankfully we have a few months till we move and think about the setup. I'm just gathering ideas especially with a balanced diet. In my house everyone wants meat rabbits and ducks to add to our chickens, there is 5 of us (9,6,4 yr old kids and an over sized kid (husband lol) ) who enjoy engaging with the animals and feeding sometimes etc., but when it comes down to it it's me who is on 99% of the animal care duty so want to make sure I am armed with information and a game plan that I can manage on my own if i had to lol.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 12, 2016)

@animalmom , her rabbits nutritional needs may be different than your rabbits nutritional needs. You couldn't feed an Angora the same amount of protein you feed a Rex. Why? The Angora diverts a lot of its protein towards hair growth. The rabbit would have a protein deficiency if fed the same % of protein as a Rex. Feed requirements also depend on environment. If her rabbits are colony-raised, they will get a lot of exercise. If your rabbits are cage-raised, they will not get as much exercise as hers. Her rabbits would need more food than yours, even if the rabbits were to exact same size.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 12, 2016)

I hear you on the dog - I once had a rabbit that chewed his hair off if he was fed anything less than 18% protein feed. He had hay available, toys to play with, anything anyone can suggest as far as changes, I did, but the only thing that stopped him stripping himself was a higher protein feed (and it didn't seem to matter which manufacturer, either). Clearly, for some reason, this rabbit couldn't absorb/utilize/_something _enough protein from the 16% or less feeds, and was trying to make up the deficiency by eating his fur. This rabbit was a pet, so to me, it was worth the bother and expense of buying the higher protein show formula, or whatever, rather than the cheaper regular feed that most rabbits can even manage to raise litters on. But I never, ever bred him - I could see no reason to risk creating more rabbits that had whatever his problem was.

A friend of mine bought a Quarter Horse mare to use as a lesson pony at the boarding stable he was running. Unfortunately, this mare had ridiculously small feet for an animal of her size, and was constantly just a little too "ouchy" to use. My friend also had a stallion at the time, and he floated the idea that, since he couldn't use the mare for riding, maybe he could use her for breeding. I brought up the old horseman's adage "no hoof, no horse," then pointed at the mare's feet and asked him, "do you really want to give feet like that to another animal?" No, he really didn't, so he didn't breed the mare.

My rather roundabout point is that, while a pet might be worth babying as far as diet goes, and a stock animal might enjoy a little babying, you really don't want to use an animal for production that requires babying, or you may wind up with a whole lot of stock that can't get along without the babying. A pet may earn its keep just in the pleasure its company gives you, but if an animal whose job is producing can't manage on what is 'normal' for its kind, it really has no business being used for production.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 12, 2016)

Yes, but that was not what I was talking about. I was talking about different breeds. Angoras are expected to need a higher protein pellet than a Rex. It is not a deformity or problem, it is a "side affect" of wool production. A rabbit that gets more exercise needs more food. That is the same with all animals. If the rabbits were all housed in wire cages, they wouldn't need as much food.


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## animalmom (Oct 13, 2016)

What am I missing?  I thought we were talking meat rabbits and while one could eat a wool rabbit the question would be why?

IF one is breeding for wool then one must feed the rabbit an appropriate diet.  I doubt anyone is disputing this.  

Meat rabbits, be they California, New Zealand, hybrids, Rex, or Altex all have common parameters for nutrition.  These animals are far removed from any wild rabbit connection that they would not do well on their own out in the wild.  When was the last time you saw an eight pound wild rabbit?  Commercial feed is your starting point from which you can supplement with vegetable/fruit/treats.  The goal of the meat rabbit breeder is healthy rabbits who produce healthy rabbits.

I'm not saying that commercial feed is the be all end all everything of life.  I am saying it is the foundation of your feeding practices.  It is not efficient, easy, economically advantageous to constantly re-create the wheel and devise a formulation for your rabbits.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 13, 2016)

Pellets should be the base of all rabbits diets, regardless of purpose. But the pellets can be supplemented with different things to benefit the rabbit. For example, certain grains with increase the sheen of the coat. On a show or pelt rabbit, that is a big plus. The rabbits wouldn't have that extra sheen if fed only pellets.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 14, 2016)

I think my original post has gotten way off track lol

So that its clear... yes our rabbits when we get them will have free choice pellets 100% of the time...

We were just looking at giving a supplement mix with some grains and stuff as a once a day treat... so we could give them something more then pellets so their pelts would be shiny and healthier. cuz we want to use most of the rabbit and will process the pelts for our own crafts etc.

Now i thought rabbits couldn't have corn, rather that be cooked - cracked- or whole corn (forget why). I noticed though the rabbit pellets that we can get from the feed store that is produced within our state (same company our chicken feed comes from, we like to support locally as much as we can) has corn as an ingredient. Is that an okay ingredient in pellets or should we try to find one that doesn't have it?

I was able to find alfalfa cubes that are alfalfa & timothy hay, would this be good to feed the the rabbits? I would still have timothy hay in a hay feeder on the cages so they are getting enough of it, since the first ingredient in the cubes are alfalfa so I assume it has more of a % then the timothy hay in it.

I noticed that there is a veggie feed mix for rabbits. Its just dehydrated veggies with pellets. Could we just dehydrate our own and use it as supplemental treats for them?

I found this list (it says no corn either) for safe foods for rabbits. Is it a good list to go with as a reference back too?

http://www.mybunny.org/info/rabbit-diet-and-nutrition/vegetables-and-fruits-for-bunnies/


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## Bunnylady (Oct 14, 2016)

There are a lot of "factoids" running around about feeding rabbits. Some people absolutely have cows about alfalfa, and some of the major manufacturers of feed produce formulations that don't have alfalfa in them. This is not recognition on the part of the manufacturer that alfalfa is "bad" for rabbits, it's a matter of catering to the demands of the market (there are chicken feeds that tout "no animal protein" on the bag, because that's what some owners seem to want, even though chickens are omnivores and an all-vegetable diet is of absolutely no benefit to a chicken). I have no idea why some people think there shouldn't be corn in rabbit feed, or even if their reason(s) for thinking that have any basis in fact at all.


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## Bossroo (Oct 14, 2016)

The "factoids" as bantied about by wanna be experts are just that and just for them to have their own egos stroked. I would recommend that you contact a Land Grant University and talk to a professor in Animal Husbandry or a professor in Veterinary Medicine that does nutrition experiments on production animals.


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## minibackyardfarmer (Oct 14, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> There are a lot of "factoids" running around about feeding rabbits. Some people absolutely have cows about alfalfa, and some of the major manufacturers of feed produce formulations that don't have alfalfa in them. This is not recognition on the part of the manufacturer that alfalfa is "bad" for rabbits, it's a matter of catering to the demands of the market (there are chicken feeds that tout "no animal protein" on the bag, because that's what some owners seem to want, even though chickens are omnivores and an all-vegetable diet is of absolutely no benefit to a chicken). I have no idea why some people think there shouldn't be corn in rabbit feed, or even if their reason(s) for thinking that have any basis in fact at all.



Thanks i just couldn't understand why corn would be bad when the cottontail family at our house now will munch on the corn if we open up an ear and leave it on the grown for them even the kits (who like to camp around in our garden without mom and dad lol)

I know all to well about chickens, cuz we do things that are against the pet chicken owners and give our chickens that are supposedly a no no lol. 

I just never want to give an animal something that could harm them or even kill them out of accident so just wanted to make sure if it mattered with the corn etc.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 14, 2016)

Corn is great for rabbits. They love it. They can have it while or cracked as a grain, and it is great in pellets. You've been told nothing but rubbish  about how corn isn't good for rabbits. If you can grow your own corn, rabbits love the stalks and shucks. Not too many green ones, though. It is better to dry them first.


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## animalmom (Oct 15, 2016)

@minibackyardfarmer, you mentioned free-feeding your rabbits.  If you mean leaving pellets available to them all the time I think that is a mistake.  Rabbits will eat all the time given the opportunity.  Unless I have a nursing doe, who I do free-feed because she is nursing, I only give pellets in the evening.  A fat rabbit does not breed.

Regarding alfalfa, my rabbits enjoy it and as I have goats I get double duty out of the alfalfa in that the goats get first crack at the alfalfa flake.  The goats eat all the leaves and most of the stems and anything left the next morning gets put in a storage can and doled out to the rabbits.  This way I have very little spoilage of the alfalfa which I buy in a 3-strand bale.

Buying a bale for your rabbits may not be economical for you.  I've found, in the grocery store no less, a product that is timothy cubes. 

  You can get them online as well as other forms of timothy hay.  At the grocery store this product is $1.99 here in Texas.  The cubes are dense enough to give the rabbits a good time gnawing.


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## AClark (Oct 15, 2016)

I'm feeding a high protein pellet (18%) and free feed them flakes of alfalfa. The alfalfa hay is cheap at $7 a bale and it slows down the amount of pellets they go through. I bought this bale a couple of months ago and still have some left with 5 adults, and now 16 babies eating it. They all have pellets available 24/7 but I've noticed they'd rather hit the flake of hay than the pellets if it's there. 
My doe with 6 kits (5 weeks old) is starting to get lean from the nursing, but everyone else is a nice healthy weight. I've been debating weaning the babies off her so she can recover some, just trying to figure out where to put them all.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 15, 2016)

@AClark , a lower protein feed may be more beneficial. Rabbits can become obese on that much protein. Rabbit pellets these days are too high in protein. Rabbit's digestive system is not designed for that much protein in such a concentration as a pellet. I feed 16% protein, but would feed lower protein pellets if I could find them. As for alfalfa hay, it is a very good quality hay, but is also very rich if not mixed with other grass hay. How did you find alfalfa hay so cheap? My local feed store doesn't even sell it. It just sells grass hay in bails. I guess the hay in my area is more geared towards horses. @animalmom , free choice pellets should be given to lactating does and kits up to 6 months old.


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## AClark (Oct 22, 2016)

Alfalfa hay grows very well out west here. It is cheap because the farmers irrigate fields off the Rio Grande river - I pick it up with a 20 minute drive directly from the farm, and it is also sold on the side of the road on trailers by the bale. This is horse quality alfalfa, not cattle quality. Cattle quality goes for cheaper, especially if it's not fit for horse consumption (mold, wet, etc) - the local dairy's buy that stuff up.

Oddly enough, grass hay is the expensive one here if you can find it. It isn't like upstate NY (I used to live near Watertown) where grass actually grows, everything has to be irrigated. Nobody irrigates grass except in orchards, and sometimes you can find orchard grass but it's $12+ a bale. 

As for pellets, that's what I can get cheap and local. Costs $16 for 50 lbs, made by Hi Pro I think, though I don't have a bag handy since I dump it in a container and chuck the bag in the trash. This is for meat rabbits, so some fat on the babies is no big deal. I haven't had any issues with the adults becoming obese, even the bucks.


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 22, 2016)

I used to feed alfalfa, but it was to expensive, and what I could get was super dusty. I can get a bale of grass hay for $5 to $7 a bale, though. My pellets cost about the same as yours. I put mine in a container, but still hoard old feed sacks.


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## AClark (Oct 22, 2016)

Yeah and have to keep in consideration that being we are in the desert we have an extended growing season, it's 83 degrees at almost 4 PM here. You get first cutting around the first week of May most of the time.
Folks don't have open fields they can cut and bale, they have to water that crap to make it grow, and watering stuff is expensive here! lol


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## DutchBunny03 (Oct 22, 2016)

Glad we don't have the problem of water. It rains all the time. It makes the feed bill cheaper, but the wet weather makes the wood on my hutches swell up. It makes opening the hutches pretty hard sometimes.  Our growing season in only a few months.You probably know that up here, you have to start your seeds inside pretty early, or your plants will be killed by frost before the end of September. It also means months of frozen water crocks. Yay. Do you have any suggestions on how to make watering more efficient for when everything turns to ice?


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## Bunnylady (Oct 22, 2016)

AClark said:


> Alfalfa hay grows very well out west here. It is cheap because the farmers irrigate fields off the Rio Grande river - I pick it up with a 20 minute drive directly from the farm, and it is also sold on the side of the road on trailers by the bale. This is horse quality alfalfa, not cattle quality. Cattle quality goes for cheaper, especially if it's not fit for horse consumption (mold, wet, etc) - the local dairy's buy that stuff up.
> 
> Oddly enough, grass hay is the expensive one here if you can find it. It isn't like upstate NY (I used to live near Watertown) where grass actually grows, everything has to be irrigated. Nobody irrigates grass except in orchards, and sometimes you can find orchard grass but it's $12+ a bale.
> 
> As for pellets, that's what I can get cheap and local. Costs $16 for 50 lbs, made by Hi Pro I think, though I don't have a bag handy since I dump it in a container and chuck the bag in the trash. This is for meat rabbits, so some fat on the babies is no big deal. I haven't had any issues with the adults becoming obese, even the bucks.



@AClark - you used to live near Watertown? Small world - I did too, when I was a child; a little town called Cape Vincent. I sure don't miss the lake-effect snow! 

As you know, it's a common practice to feed a higher protein feed to rabbits that are being used in an intensive breeding program;  several manufacturers make a 18% protein formulation for that purpose. A bit of extra protein won't make rabbits fat; overfeeding will. Anybody heard of the Atkins diet? Yes, that's for humans, but it takes a fair amount of energy to convert protein to fat, whatever kind of animal you are. It's far easier to make a rabbit fat with things that are high in carbohydrates and fats, like grains. A lot of people feed hay mainly for its fiber content, so whatever hay is produced locally is usually the cheapest and therefore what gets fed. For us, it's Coastal Bermuda; Timothy has to get shipped down from New England or the midwest or even Canada and is therefore pricier. Some horse folks around here like to feed Alfalfa as hay, but most of the feed stores don't carry it, so it has to be shipped in as a special order - which means $$$.  The protein content of alfalfa can vary widely, depending on when it was harvested, some grass hays may actually be higher in protein than late-harvested alfalfa.


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## AClark (Nov 18, 2016)

The Atkins analogy is as good one, it really is a lot harder to get fat off of protein than it is carbohydrates. The horses at my parents aren't fed, they are pastured and they are absolutely obese right now, but they got a lot of grass due to the monsoon season this year. 

Speaking of the growing season, I just pulled the last of my tomatoes off a couple of days ago, but the plants were covered in blooms and 8 ft or so tall - we haven't had a frost yet and it's been in the low 80's during the day. I didn't start those tomatoes indoors even, I planted them directly in early March and kept them covered. We will get an occasional freak frost that late, but it's not very common. I just turned my A/C off last week. I might have gotten more off, but I needed to pull the plants to get the yard back to where it needs to be to move out next month. I barely got any tomatoes over the summer because of the heat, but the ones I grabbed earlier this week made 18 lbs off of 4 plants.


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