# Result of accidental inbreeding has arrived



## Moody (Jun 5, 2016)

Last kidding this season. Lamancha/alpine doeling bred by her own alpine sire....

Looks like every other kid from this sire With Lamancha ears. Single doeling. 

Here's the problem. I don't know exact time of birth but this baby girl won't use her front legs correctly. Her back legs work fine but the front she walks around on her knees. I don't remember the other kids (all 9 I have seen born) walking on their knees, just wobbly legs. I know if she's still having problems tomorrow, that there really must be some problem but so I don't have to worry all night, is this okay?


Momma wouldn't get her nose away from my phone for the pic.


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## Moody (Jun 5, 2016)

Momma refused to let her nurse during the 20 min I watched so I got her on the stand. Took 1/2 cup colostrum for future use and got baby under her for a good shot of nursing.


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## Moody (Jun 5, 2016)

Better picture since momma is busy eating alfalfa and dropping it all over baby.


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## TAH (Jun 5, 2016)

Congratulations on the new one. It would be helpful it we had a pic of the front legs. Are her hooves bent in at all? Here are some other people hew can. Help.
@Southern by choice @OneFineAcre @Goat Whisperer @misfitmorgan


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## babsbag (Jun 5, 2016)

I absolutely would not worry about the inbreeding at all. Those of us that do it all of the time call it "line breeding". I have many many kids that are a result of breeding to their sire. I do it almost every year; my only personal rule is that I will only do if for one generation. I have done this for 8 years and no problems.

I would give her some Bo-Se. If the front legs are really bad maybe some splints. Is mom letting her nurse?


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## Moody (Jun 5, 2016)

She has let her nurse but only when I have made her do it. I cannot be sure though as I am only out there for a bit at a time. She could be letting her nurse just not when I happen to be there.  The little one eats well. 

I don't have bo-se on hand because when i checked, my area was  not known to be deficient


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## Southern by choice (Jun 5, 2016)

If she cannot stand then she cannot nurse.
Some kids will be weak from strange birth position etc.

I would try some kelp balls. Feed them to momma and milk her out and give to kid.

Recipe here- http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/doe-walks-on-her-heels.25161/#post-330502

Your area may not be selenium deficient but if she has been on hay all winter she may be. Depends on the value of your hay. They do sell selenium gel paste... not quite as good as BoSe but might help.


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## Latestarter (Jun 5, 2016)

Congrats on a new doeling! Seems I've read numerous other posts of similar ailments and none that I can recollect were terminal... They all straightened and strengthened over time with nourishment, supplements, and/or splints. Hope mom comes around and starts caring for the little one. mean time, hope it all comes around and works out OK for all involved.


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## Moody (Jun 6, 2016)

I checked at 5 am and she was standing normally on all legs. I guess it worked itself out. I will go out later and ensure she is getting to nurse. Moms bag is huge for a FF so I may have to milk her despite not really wanting to. 

Thanks for all the great info!


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## Moody (Jun 6, 2016)

Well in daylight she is not standing quite correctly. I don't think I ever looked so closely at a newborns legs and the way they stand. Still very young. She stands just a bit too far back instead on straight up on the hooves. They are bent forward so she stands on that back dewclaw portion. It will probably correct itself.....I hope.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 6, 2016)

You may need to put splints on but the kelp/oatmeal balls will greatly help. Momma gets the nutrition and it goes through her to get to the kid.


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## Moody (Jun 6, 2016)

I don't know if I have "quality" hay but it isn't moldy. Has a few weeds but it is mostly coastal from the neighbors fields. I will definitely try some kelp balls. I imagine they would be good for all my does....

Her udder is full. I have milked done but have been quite busy with other goats/ducklings/goose/human kids that I haven't had time to just milk her out. I need to so I can save colostrum anyway. Isn't oatmeal good for milk production in humans and would it possibly cause even more excessive fullness in my doe?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 6, 2016)

it shouldn't cause issues there but if she is real full you need to make it a *priority.* If she starts leaking then she opens herself up to all kinds of nasties! You don't want mastitis and if e-coli or staph gets into open orifices from leaking you can end up with bluebag mastitis and you will lose an udder. If you think you are busy now and she ends up with mastitis of any kind you will be doing this all day long.
Not to mention it is painful for a doe.


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## Moody (Jun 7, 2016)

Baby is nursing well. I have some poor pics of her stance and her hooves.


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## Moody (Jun 7, 2016)




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## Moody (Jun 7, 2016)

So what's wrong with the hooves?

They look almost overgrown but she is 2 days old.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 7, 2016)

We had some kids recently this year some inbreed/linebred and some not that stood awkwardly for the first 2-3 days before straightening out, so you may have nothing to worry about.

Her hooves look alright, one toe does appear bigger then the other but that shouldnt make a huge difference in her stance at this age. Looks like her pasturns are fallen down, if her mom had good pasterns and her dad did as well she will likely outgrow it. Our lamb took about 2 weeks to pick up her pastures. All the ligaments and stuff(very technical term) need to tighten up.

Anyone have an ideas on anything that would cause weak pasterns deficiency wise?

Personally i would give a shot of the Selenium/Vit E gel even if you think you have enough in your hay...its a tiny amount your giving like the size of a pea and the tube is about $7 which will last you for years really. Alternatively if you dont want to buy the gel you can make sure they have good loose minerals for momma and baby.

As far as mom goes as Southern said she should be fine unless she is leaking milk, then she definately needs to be milked out some. Udders can rupture and believe me if her udder ruptures from being to full you will be spending a lot more time and for a lot longer taking care of it or be forced to put her down. Also generally an udder rupture makes the udder forever weaker and prone to it happening again.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 7, 2016)

Moody said:


> So what's wrong with the hooves?
> 
> They look almost overgrown but she is 2 days old.



They are not really overgrown, sometimes if mamma has a lot of nutrients to give, a little extra grows on the hooves before birth...means she is a good healthy doe to give you kids. Generally hooves are not trimmed until 8 weeks old and hers look fine.


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## Moody (Jun 7, 2016)

Okay 

She does walk a bit awkwardly. I hope they get better. I intend to look for kelp and sel/vit E at feed store this afternoon. I have probios with vit e and some separate lamb/kid paste (it does t really say what it is for but it look to be beneficial bacteria much like probios)

I milked (a cup) her yesterday but I haven't milked her out. She is a FF with small teats but huge udder. I milked the hard full side today and got another cup and baby is keeping other side softer.


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## Moody (Jun 7, 2016)

I will watch (as best as I can I have never seen mastitis) for mastitis. With her swelling and hard udder in hoping to relieve pressure and not fully milk out. Her momma's milk tastes a bit bitter for lack of a better word and I dont really want to milk her this season. I likely have plenty with the one doe (although she is varying widely in her production despite steady grain intake) so I may end up changing my mind later but for now I don't want her to up production for this one doeling.


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## babsbag (Jun 7, 2016)

The line breeding has nothing to do with the weak pasterns. Most likely either a Selenium deficiency or she was just in awkward position in the uterus. I had a triplet (not line bred) that took three weeks before he walked correctly. The fact that she is walking better than she was the day before is a good sign but the selenium will help if you can get her any.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 7, 2016)

Moody said:


> Okay
> 
> She does walk a bit awkwardly. I hope they get better. I intend to look for kelp and sel/vit E at feed store this afternoon. I have probios with vit e and some separate lamb/kid paste (it does t really say what it is for but it look to be beneficial bacteria much like probios)
> 
> I milked (a cup) her yesterday but I haven't milked her out. She is a FF with small teats but huge udder. I milked the hard full side today and got another cup and baby is keeping other side softer.



Basically if you can keep it from being hot and hard the doe will be a lot more comfortable. i have a FF in the same position now where her son only nurses one side and the other gets hot and hard so i milk it about half way out twice a day if one of the other kids doesnt get to it before me. She does not have really tiny teats for a FF but not super fun to milk size like a seasoned doe, kind of in between. Honestly if we owned a milk stand i would probly milk her out more but gate milking she wanders around still so it a pain in the butt.

 Keep watching the doe kid she will most likely straighten out on her own. We had one doe last year that did not straighten out, but that was an extreme case where she was in womb with front leg pushed up and over her back while developing and the one joint was seized stiff, so she never would have been able to use it correctly from birth...she was a triplet and i think mom just didnt have enough room. We had a boy off a set of twins whose legs were bent backwards the wrong way we were really concerned about but he straighten up in a couple days and came out just fine and normal.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 7, 2016)

This the lamb i was referring to the day her mom broke her leg (2 days old)



 
looks very similar to the way your doe stands

This is roughly 12 days later after a cast change and you can kinda tell she still isnt straight up on her legs.


 
Thinking back i think it actually took closer to three weeks for her pasturns to pick up and her leg to straighten out.


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## Moody (Jun 7, 2016)

Thank you!!

I'm hoping it does straighten on its own. I couldn't find selenium vit e gel in my town. Just an equine selenium powder. And no kelp either. 

Tomorrow I can venture to a bigger town with a tsc and a bigger better feed store


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## Moody (Jun 14, 2016)

Got the selenium vit e gel from Amazon and gave her some a couple of days ago. She does seem to be getting better. Staying with the herd more and bouncing around some. 

Thanks so much for all the advice and help!


There's her moms huge udder. I decided to try the new $$$ machine on her. Her teats aren't too terribly tiny...she milks great it just takes forever. The $$$ machine worked great! Deflated that thing like a balloon. (Still took a bit longer than my other goats).  I got a quart that first time. 

It amazes me how different the udders look. I expected an amazing udder on one doe and it is tiny but delicious milk. This one surprised me with the amount and size.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm glad things seem to be going well, thats always good news.

What is the new $$$$ machine? i have never heard of such a thing.


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## Moody (Jun 14, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> I'm glad things seem to be going well, thats always good news.
> 
> What is the new $$$$ machine? i have never heard of such a thing.


Milk machine. I didnt Need to spend that much on this tiny goat hobby/operation but my hands are thanking me. I'm a big baby. Hand milking even just 2 goats was making me whiny and fussy.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 14, 2016)

It's called the new $$$$ machine? i need to look into a milker of some kind. i found one i cna make has a pulsator, regular cups and all for like $150 but i havnt ordered the parts yet cause we are not set up for milking all the does yet.


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## babsbag (Jun 14, 2016)

I think she is just saying that it was expensive. 

I love my milk machine except when I have to dismantle it to THROUGHLY clean it which I don't do as often as I should.  I run wash solution through it but not as good as taking it apart and using the brushes.


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## Latestarter (Jun 14, 2016)

I can't remember the actual name of the machine Moody got. But most of them that I've checked out run ~$550 (low end) plus. @frustratedearthmother just got a machine a couple weeks ago and was talking about how much she loved it. I bookmarked the site that she posted when I asked her about it. It looks like something I'd seriously consider buying. Really simple and easy to use as well as clean from their videos.
http://www.simplepulse.net/


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 14, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> I can't remember the actual name of the machine Moody got. But most of them that I've checked out run ~$550 (low end) plus. @frustratedearthmother just got a machine a couple weeks ago and was talking about how much she loved it. I bookmarked the site that she posted when I asked her about it. It looks like something I'd seriously consider buying. Really simple and easy to use as well as clean from their videos.
> http://www.simplepulse.net/



Oh the irony....ok that website you linked...the owner has another site where he details how to make that same style milker for $500 with stainless steel belly bucket....least i think thats him...either its him or someone using his plans. This is where i saw him for some reason i was thinking $150...nope its around $500 
http://smallholderhollow.com/projects/diy-milking-machine/
I think i mixed up when i was looking at the ez milker prices.
I will say the simplepulse ones looks more finished but i dont think they look as sturdy. I have until next spring atleast to figure out what i want. The crumby thing is our friend has a entire set up for a milking parlor that she hasnt used in 10 yrs and wont let us buy it...or borrow it....or anything lol. She says in case she decides to milk her goats, she has 1 doe and is a goofball cause she dont got time to do it. i dont hold it against her of course but it would be so nice.


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## babsbag (Jun 14, 2016)

I paid 800.00 for mine used. It is a Caprine Supply System One. I really like it, but then I am currently milking about 15 goats and that should go to 19 pretty soon. Even with that it takes me over 2 hours.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 14, 2016)

We were hand milking 6 last year and it took us about an hour and a half and i never wanna have to do that many by hand again lol

i found out we have 3 companies that will come buy bulk goat milk...so that would be interesting, there is a large diary with roughly 300 diary goats about 2hrs from me so im hoping to go visit them and see what their operation/setup is.


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## babsbag (Jun 14, 2016)

Well is Michigan is anything like CA it won't be easy to get licensed but I am never one to tell someone not to try.


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## koleymom (Jun 17, 2016)

I am new here to the forum, but wanted to share my first hand experience.  Two years ago my new doe (we had had her, our first dairy goat, for about 6 months) gave birth to twin bucklings.  This was my first experience kidding and was nervous because of all the unknowns.  One of her boys was born exactly like your little one, with bent front legs and was unable to stand.  He was in a very awkward birthing position (front leg wrapped around the back of his neck) and maybe this had something to do with it, not sure.

This was NOT due to inbreeding at all, but was told by my very experienced neighbor and goat owner that this sometimes happens, she has seen it before.  It ended up being not a big deal.  We splinted his legs and by one month he was walking on his own, and by 2 months you couldn't tell him from his twin!  I would take good care of your little one, do all you can to keep her standing correctly and nursing (ours needed assistance for quite a while) .  Her legs should straighten out  and strengthen. Now our little guy is a strong 2 year old wether and full of spunk.  

Good luck!  She'll be just fine


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 17, 2016)

koleymom said:


> I am new here to the forum, but wanted to share my first hand experience.  Two years ago my new doe (we had had her, our first dairy goat, for about 6 months) gave birth to twin bucklings.  This was my first experience kidding and was nervous because of all the unknowns.  One of her boys was born exactly like your little one, with bent front legs and was unable to stand.  He was in a very awkward birthing position (front leg wrapped around the back of his neck) and maybe this had something to do with it, not sure.
> 
> This was NOT due to inbreeding at all, but was told by my very experienced neighbor and goat owner that this sometimes happens, she has seen it before.  It ended up being not a big deal.  We splinted his legs and by one month he was walking on his own, and by 2 months you couldn't tell him from his twin!  I would take good care of your little one, do all you can to keep her standing correctly and nursing (ours needed assistance for quite a while) .  Her legs should straighten out  and strengthen. Now our little guy is a strong 2 year old wether and full of spunk.
> 
> Good luck!  She'll be just fine



Welcome to BYH! Lots of great people here.

Most kids that come out with janky legs turn out fine so long as it justs from a funny position in the womb. Little resilient buggers.


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## Latestarter (Jun 17, 2016)

Greetings @koleymom and welcome to BYH. Always room for another goat owner!  We have some really great ones on site! If you have some pics of yours that you would share, we are all pic-a-holics  Always fun to see everyone else's animals   Make yourself at home and look forward to your posts!


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## Moody (Jun 17, 2016)

Sorry, I wasn't alerted to new posts. 

Yes, I mean it was pricey, especially for my hobby farm. $850 I believe and  I got it from Perry's milkers. Works beautifully and saves my poor aching hands. I can also use it for the jersey should I ever have her bred. He said I could milk two goats at once with it but I don't understand the logistics of that. I pop open one of the extra inflations instead of milking two goats at once just so I can relieve the suction instead of just yanking a teat out of the inflations I am using. I have the shutoff valve but it is still vacuumed/pressurized to all four inflations unless I do open one and let air in. 

This is only my second kidding/milking season with the goats so there is a lot I still have yet to learn. Thanks for the reassurances that things will be fine and that it was likely from her birthing position. She is doing better. Emptying her momma and staying with the herd more often.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 17, 2016)

Moody said:


> Sorry, I wasn't alerted to new posts.
> 
> Yes, I mean it was pricey, especially for my hobby farm. $850 I believe and  I got it from Perry's milkers. Works beautifully and saves my poor aching hands. I can also use it for the jersey should I ever have her bred. He said I could milk two goats at once with it but I don't understand the logistics of that. I pop open one of the extra inflations instead of milking two goats at once just so I can relieve the suction instead of just yanking a teat out of the inflations I am using. I have the shutoff valve but it is still vacuumed/pressurized to all four inflations unless I do open one and let air in.
> 
> This is only my second kidding/milking season with the goats so there is a lot I still have yet to learn. Thanks for the reassurances that things will be fine and that it was likely from her birthing position. She is doing better. Emptying her momma and staying with the herd more often.



Thats awesome im very glad she is doing better 

For the milker i think a pic would be needed cause they have many options it seems and very few pictures.


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## Moody (Jun 17, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> Thats awesome im very glad she is doing better
> 
> For the milker i think a pic would be needed cause they have many options it seems and very few pictures.


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## Moody (Jun 17, 2016)

I bring one goat down from the barn, turn this machine on, and milk her right outside the garage door so if it's raining, I am out of luck and have to go up to the barn and hand milk. 

The husband doesn't want me taking over the garage but there are future plans for an addition on the barn with a clean room/milk parlor with *gasp* electricity and nearby water


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 20, 2016)

Moody said:


> I bring one goat down from the barn, turn this machine on, and milk her right outside the garage door so if it's raining, I am out of luck and have to go up to the barn and hand milk.
> 
> The husband doesn't want me taking over the garage but there are future plans for an addition on the barn with a clean room/milk parlor with *gasp* electricity and nearby water



That will be awesome for you and the goats.

On your setup i believe the little red knob on your pump is the vacuum release, but that is purely a guess....somewhere on or near the pump is usually always a vacuum release then there is no fiddling with extra cups and you can milk two at once but generally far as i know most people dont bother releasing the vacuum like that for cows or goats. For goats ive only ever seen people just tilt the cups to let air in and gently pull them off. i know with the cheaper like mason jar and breast pump set up the cups will pretty much fall off when the doe is empty because the teats go very soft when completely empty and pretty much flat, which im sure you have seen when hand milking.


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## Moody (Jun 22, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> That will be awesome for you and the goats.
> 
> On your setup i believe the little red knob on your pump is the vacuum release, but that is purely a guess....somewhere on or near the pump is usually always a vacuum release then there is no fiddling with extra cups and you can milk two at once but generally far as i know most people dont bother releasing the vacuum like that for cows or goats. For goats ive only ever seen people just tilt the cups to let air in and gently pull them off. i know with the cheaper like mason jar and breast pump set up the cups will pretty much fall off when the doe is empty because the teats go very soft when completely empty and pretty much flat, which im sure you have seen when hand milking.


I think it just shuts off the vacuum but there it is still sealed with the pressure. One would think I could just put my finger into the inflation and break suction but it seems hard on her teat and hard to get off. Using one of the "extras" released the hold and I can just wait to catch them, if that makes sense?

Doing two at once I would not be able to get that seal broken (I worry about damaging her teats) esp since one would definitely finish before the other? 

It is my first year with the pump and I am no pro, but I do want to make sure o am not damaging my does in any way....


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 22, 2016)

Moody said:


> I think it just shuts off the vacuum but there it is still sealed with the pressure. One would think I could just put my finger into the inflation and break suction but it seems hard on her teat and hard to get off. Using one of the "extras" released the hold and I can just wait to catch them, if that makes sense?
> 
> Doing two at once I would not be able to get that seal broken (I worry about damaging her teats) esp since one would definitely finish before the other?
> 
> It is my first year with the pump and I am no pro, but I do want to make sure o am not damaging my does in any way....



I find it odd there is no vacuum release on the store bought pump 
You could add an in- line T near the pump and put a ball valve on it so you would have a release that way. Really just depends if you want to milk two at once i guess. It looks like a nice setup anyhow.


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## Fullhousefarm (Jun 26, 2016)

Here is how I milk two at a time with my milker. I have one goat that needs my full attention- so I don't milk another one while I'm milking her, but my other 4-5 are good most of the time.

Eta: I stick my finger by the teat to release pressure after I use the valve (on each individual inflation) to stop the suction. Unless one of my bratty goats kicks them off first. I have one of those brats. Tries it every time!


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