# We are now off of grain!



## samssimonsays (Jul 10, 2015)

I was torn on the whole grain and no grain debacle quite honestly... BUT we are now a grain free "herd"! I say Herd lightly because I only have three goats  

I still have about 30 pounds of grain left out of my 50 pound bag and they do get it occasionally but usually only if they need to be occupied for a short amount of time otherwise they have been on a diet of hay and pasture. Their favorite is dead pine needles and lord knows they will NOT eat the grass or clover or anything in their pen... NOPE! I have to let the rabbits loose in there to mow it down for me because it starts to get half way to their knees and is the new baby lays down she just about disappears! I shouldn't say none of them eat the grass in the pen.... that would be false. The new baby does. But she is so little she cannot keep up with the area. 

On the plus side, with letting them free roam the property while we are home they have cleared the unwanted raspberry bushes from in front of the storage container, under the trailer, in the car port and along the garage. We have yet to let them follow us to the back of the property where the ones we want to keep are . Our neighbors have requested us to bring them over to their place next . They don't know what they would be in for with Ollie!


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## norseofcourse (Jul 10, 2015)

My sheep don't eat much of the clover in their pasture, either - but they start eating it more towards the fall.  I think it tastes differently at different times of the year (that's probably true of other plants, too).


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## samssimonsays (Jul 10, 2015)

That makes a lot of sense! I never thought of it that way.


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## outdoorhoney (Aug 5, 2015)

Congratulations! Getting my girls off of grains would be a fight and a half  Usually about *two hours* before dinner time, they'll start crying out on the pasture wanting back into their pen. Then when I open up the pen, they'll go sit in their troughs waiting for their feed. All while being as vocal as possible. They are some noisy, spoiled girls when it comes to their grains. 

How'd you do it?


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 5, 2015)

Let them get over it 

We have been lucky that once the forage comes in they don't even holler for supper. Right now I am feeding a few of the does to get a few more pounds on them before breeding and the FAT 90lb Nigerian DWARF is sure she needs some


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## samssimonsays (Aug 5, 2015)

Mine are all babies this year so I just started weaning them off of it.  A little less each day and then went to every other and now they'll get it  as a rare treat when we have company Lol.  We do lots of grass hay and they have their mineral  block as well as the grass and brush in our yard. no one looks skinny ever just healthy.  

I can picture those girls now.... you need to video tape that! Hahaha!


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 5, 2015)

Per your OP I'm not really familiar with the "grain vs no grain debacle "
 I'm not really sure what that means
So Im not sure what your goal is by removing grain from their diet?
I guess I must be on the grain side because I think you should be feeding those Jr does some feed
Now is a time in their lives where they should be growing rapidly 
You had another post on here recently with more current pics of your animals and I thought they were small and thin for their age and I'm approximating their age from your first posts
I'm curious what their exact age and weights are but I think I have Nigerians about the same age who weigh more
i hope my comments don't offend you


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## samssimonsays (Aug 5, 2015)

I don't take offense at all: )  

My alpines come from very established dairy lines and most of them look similar but when they've been out of their pen eating they are not as thin. My wether and snubian doe are the same size and weight as their full siblings on grain currently.  My coworkers also have Nigerian dwarfs and they are used to a traditional dairy breed and he is having a hard time adjusting to the different build so maybe that's something as well?  I'm not sure, this is my first go round with them.  Lol my little Alpine doe is petite naturally as are her genetics. Outstanding milking lines but petite as well. 

Here is tilda born 3/3


 
olive was born mid April, not 100% sure on her bday I was told it but forgot...  she was also a bottle baby and bullied a bit at her last place. Her older sister is built the same way and was raised on the mother.



here is Ollie the wether born 2/27 he comes from thicker and bigger lines than little olive does. He is even thicker than most alpines you find around me. I guess they seem totally normal compared to body mass. I can't feel ribs any or spines. The vet wasn't concerned but I do not know their weight. I'm guessing about 50#s for tilda as she's getting harder to lift Lol


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 5, 2015)

The two does look small for their age
Maybe it is genetic just slower growth
I have Nigerians born first of March that weigh 36 lbs
For reference they need to weigh 40 lbs to breed
We don't breed that young but we are breeding and feeding for faster growth


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## babsbag (Aug 5, 2015)

Your doelings need some grain to grow quickly but they will grow without it; I don't grain my kids but they do grow more slowly than they would with grain. The main reason I don't feed grain to kids is just that I have too many and no way to feed them and not the does, I need a creep feeder. 

 But that being said if you intend to milk them when you breed them they will need grain when in milk. There is a direct correlation between the amount of grain they eat and the amount of milk they produce. (within reason of course, there is a limit to milk production)

Why no grain?


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## outdoorhoney (Aug 6, 2015)

You have beautiful kids! Once my girls grow up a little and mature I will slowly wean them off grains. It's definitely helping them put on weight though and I don't see a problem with it at the moment (minus the girls crying for their feed). Glad you found a diet that works for them


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## samssimonsays (Aug 6, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> The two does look small for their age
> Maybe it is genetic just slower growth
> I have Nigerians born first of March that weigh 36 lbs
> For reference they need to weigh 40 lbs to breed
> We don't breed that young but we are breeding and feeding for faster growth


My Alpine will be smaller. It was just a genetic trait her lines have. The breeder has small bucks I can cross her to so it's not too big of an issue for that. They also are penned and get to come out when we are home to graze more.


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## samssimonsays (Aug 6, 2015)

babsbag said:


> Your doelings need some grain to grow quickly but they will grow without it; I don't grain my kids but they do grow more slowly than they would with grain. The main reason I don't feed grain to kids is just that I have too many and no way to feed them and not the does, I need a creep feeder.
> 
> But that being said if you intend to milk them when you breed them they will need grain when in milk. There is a direct correlation between the amount of grain they eat and the amount of milk they produce. (within reason of course, there is a limit to milk production)
> 
> Why no grain?


Oh yes! I definitely will feed grain on the milk stand but mine got to a point where they we're destroying everything because they we're frantic for it. My wether is a bit of an a**..... I admit that. He's destroyed several metal food containers to get to it. Since he hasn't had any, he is now not being that way so much anymore .  maybe its a coincidence 

I don't plan to breed any of the girls till fall of next year so slower growth isn't a problem in my eyes?   should it be?  Like I said before though, they are the same size as their Grain fed full siblings and mine are filled out a lot more. 

I should add that they will be getting it over the winter but I will also be stand training them as well.


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## samssimonsays (Aug 6, 2015)

outdoorhoney said:


> You have beautiful kids! Once my girls grow up a little and mature I will slowly wean them off grains. It's definitely helping them put on weight though and I don't see a problem with it at the moment (minus the girls crying for their feed). Glad you found a diet that works for them


Thanks!  We we're suggested they don't need it so we started off with it since they were on it but weaned off of it. There never been too skinny but their attitudes sure did change after being off it for a while Lol.  amazing how that changes them!


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## Alibo (Aug 7, 2015)

Grain is not digested very well by ruminants from what I understand. They have an incredibly diverse system of good bacteria and yeasts that break down all of their food. The bacteria ferments the grain too fast and builds a very accidic environment for their body which inhibits their immune system and lowers the ability to fight parasites. Can also cause too much gas too quickly and bloat if not used to grain. Goats and other ruminants have a very alkaline ph normally that is why baking soda is great for balancing them out. 

On a plus side, we has goat owners in turn get a much better gut flora of our own just from handling goats. Breathing in and touching their feces indirectly is very healthy for our gut bacteria diversity.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 7, 2015)

Alibo said:


> Grain is not digested very well by ruminants from what I understand.


Your understanding is not entirely correct

Ruminants are herbivores
Grains are seeds
Seeds are a natural part of a herbivores diet
They also have higher calories than forage plants
Offer a goat grain or hay and which will they eat first ?


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## samssimonsays (Aug 10, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> Your understanding is not entirely correct
> 
> Ruminants are herbivores
> Grains are seeds
> ...



I am not a fan of the extremely high amount of corn that is in the grain I have available in my area, and until now, this is the only veiw "for grain" I have heard. Since being off of grain mine have had glossier and healthier coats, they have been better behaved, which may or may not be a coinsindence, and they have been healthy. No grain may not work for everyone or every goat but I have been pleased with my results of being off of it. Their vet seems pleased as well as the people I have gotten them from with how they look and feel. They have all certainly come a long way from when I brought them home though. 

But to answer your question on the hay vs grain, I have two girls who would much rather eat hay  My boy will pick out and eat rabbit pellets while the girls eat the rabbit hay if allowed in my barn LOL. And to get them back into their pen, grain never worked. BUT, a branch of dead pine needles works wonders  My goats have been backwards from the get go quite honestly...  

Maybe one day I will be blessed with a normal animal ... but until that day comes I will love every second of my weirdos LOL


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## mikiz (Aug 18, 2015)

Just for another perspective - offer a child candy or an apple, which will they eat first?
Also plants wouldn't produce a boat load of straight grain in a natural diet, seeds may be a part of it but not all at once without anything else. I'd say a grass-hay with some seed heads would be a better equivalent?

@Samantha drawz what was their difference in behaviour on grain vs off it?


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## samssimonsays (Aug 18, 2015)

mikiz said:


> Just for another perspective - offer a child candy or an apple, which will they eat first?
> Also plants wouldn't produce a boat load of straight grain in a natural diet, seeds may be a part of it but not all at once without anything else. I'd say a grass-hay with some seed heads would be a better equivalent?
> 
> @Samantha drawz what was their difference in behaviour on grain vs off it?



Frantic and absolutely acting as if I starved them ( I know that is totally normal as they are goats but the level of frantic was mind boggling). They destroyed my fence and part of my building in an attempt to get to the grain in the barn (they are outside the barn with a pen attached to it). They no longer care about the metal feed bins my rabbits feed is in, they are no longer beside themselves hollering outside the barn door when they get to come out of the pen. If I had video taped the frenzy they were in when it came time for their grain it would blow you away. Now that it is a rare treat when people come over to hand feed them they have become accustomed to not destroying the feed metal containers to get to any kind of feed.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 18, 2015)

mikiz said:


> Just for another perspective - offer a child candy or an apple, which will they eat first?



I think comparing a goat's preference for feed vs hay to a human child's preference for candy vs an apple is a very interesting analogy.

A better analogy however, is a predator consuming the internal organs (liver, heart, and lungs) of their prey first because they are higher in protein.


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## Goat Whisperer (Aug 18, 2015)

@Samantha drawz this post is not directed at you or* anyone *on this forum so please don't take it that way. 

I think many have a negative view on grain/feed. Feed can be a very healthy thing, as long as you keep it in balance.  I feed a very good quality pelleted feed. I don't feed it to all my goats but I feed it to those that need it. Some growing kids need to be on feed while others don't. 

Currently I am feeding almost the entire doe herd, why? Because a few of the milkers are getting cut down to milking once a day and I want to put weight on them before breeding season. Others are yearlings that are still growing. Although they aren't skinny, I want them to get a few pounds on them before fall. Some of my other does (ND's) I have to pull out and lock them in a pen because they are fat and will get obese if they are on grain.

I am seeing more and more often is that people don't want to feed.....They want it to be natural. The way I look at it is if you have your goats behind a fence it won't ever be natural 

Heck if we want to to go on about what is natural, I wouldn't even consider milking a dairy goat and drinking its milk natural because well that doesn't really happen in the wild.  

It is up to the owner of the goats to decide how they will care for their herd.


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## mikiz (Aug 18, 2015)

I don't think grain is bad, I just don't see them needing a concentrated amount of it at any time. Mixed with other stuff yes, and in moderation is fine. 
Have you ever considered that predators eat the organs first because they taste better? Muscle is pretty bland when it's raw. Animals will do what they can to get as much of the "yummy stuff" or things that make them feel good. It's what they're wired to do. 

I'm not surprised that the goats are behaving much better since not having grain, they're not obsessing over it or working out a billion ways to get to it, because it's not a conscious part of their diet anymore. They'll probably behave wonderfully around people as well now, because the delicious stuff comes only when people are around, so they'll be super friendly.
It's why treat-training works so well, animals, and humans, will jump through flaming hoops for what they consider a pleasurable treat.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 18, 2015)

mikiz said:


> I don't think grain is bad, I just don't see them needing a concentrated amount of it at any time. Mixed with other stuff yes, and in moderation is fine.
> Have you ever considered that predators eat the organs first because they taste better? Muscle is pretty bland when it's raw. Animals will do what they can to get as much of the "yummy stuff" or things that make them feel good. It's what they're wired to do.
> 
> I'm not surprised that the goats are behaving much better since not having grain, they're not obsessing over it or working out a billion ways to get to it, because it's not a conscious part of their diet anymore. They'll probably behave wonderfully around people as well now, because the delicious stuff comes only when people are around, so they'll be super friendly.
> It's why treat-training works so well, animals, and humans, will jump through flaming hoops for what they consider a pleasurable treat.


No I had not considered they ate the organs first because they taste better
Interesting thought though
I


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 18, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> No I had not considered they ate the organs first because they taste better
> Interesting thought though
> I


Ok I considered it
No  that isn't it
They eat it first because nature has conditioned them to eat the most nutritious food first
Why?
Because many don't get to finish the meal before a larger or more dominant predator(s) takes the meal from them

Now really, I don't pay to feed anyone's goats but my own
So if Samantha doesn't want to feed hers grain that's her prerogative.
And when/if you actually have some goats feed them what you like

When Samantha first posted this I didn't reply because I didn't have anything to say
When she put pics up I stated they seemed small for their age
If she's ok with them I am too
Oh and the behavior they displayed before she stopped feeding grain?
It called a Pavlovian Response
You know Pavlov and his bratty dog
Mine do it every day in the morning and evening when they each get about a cup of a balanced goat feed after enjoying free choice grass hay, some alfalfa hay, and all the browse they can eat


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## mikiz (Aug 18, 2015)

Is it then a coincidence that what is considered the most nutritious, is, generally, also the tastiest? (except in the case of man-made refined food some of which is indeed terrible when consumed in any quantity)
Samantha said she thought their behaviour was overly ambitious, not just your regular hollering and general rambunctiousness in excitment or expectation of food.
Do your goats also destroy metal feed bins for their feed? There is a difference between conditioned response and outright crazy cravings.
There's a reason animals are wired to devour as much of the "good stuff" as they can, it's because it is supposed to be a rare meal that they are able to eat a decent quantity of it.
Did you also know if a predator eats too much of the offal, they too will become ill from not eating enough of the bland and boring?

I never said grain was bad, and people can and will feed what they feel is best for their animals, just that high concentrated food is better mixed with other food and in moderation.
And of course indiviuals will be individuals, just like you don't feed certain breeds of horse any grain and others you could feed in buckets and it wouldn't make a difference to their behaviour. Food affects everyone differently.

I will leave this topic now, and hope that it is thought inducing for others, at least to consider another side.
And apologies to Samantha for blowing up a happy thread  I'm glad to hear the goats are doing well.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 18, 2015)

mikiz said:


> Is it then a coincidence that what is considered the most nutritious, is, generally, also the tastiest? (except in the case of man-made refined food some of which is indeed terrible when consumed in any quantity)
> Samantha said she thought their behaviour was overly ambitious, not just your regular hollering and general rambunctiousness in excitment or expectation of food.
> Do your goats also destroy metal feed bins for their feed? There is a difference between conditioned response and outright crazy cravings.
> There's a reason animals are wired to devour as much of the "good stuff" as they can, it's because it is supposed to be a rare meal that they are able to eat a decent quantity of it.
> ...


And what are you basing your statement that the organs taste best on?
Do you prefer liver to a filet?


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## babsbag (Aug 19, 2015)

Liver


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## samssimonsays (Aug 19, 2015)

No offense taken here @Goat Whisperer  I love learning the different ways of things.

@mikiz don't worry about it, this has all been super informative and I have learned a lot! 

I am with @babsbag on the Liver but my dogs sure do love em! And hot dogs.... 

@OneFineAcre The difference is you have a quality feed where as Purina is all that is available by me and no feed is better than their feed in my eyes.  I have had plenty of horrible experiences with it in rabbit feed to know to steer clear of it. The only other kind available is one that is mixed at the feed store and I have found it is mostly cracked corn and a LOT of fines with a pellet thrown in here or there. I have read on grain vs. no grain and it is a very similar debate as RAW for dogs and cats vs. not. There is a very distinct line where people are either for it or against it. I am just happy that my goats coats cleared up and their demeanor's changed since taking them off. They also no longer act as if they are starving.  to each their own. I won't tell anyone they are wrong for what they are feeding or how they feed, it is their choice. I have a feed store working on getting a better quality one for winter/when I start milking in 2017


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2015)

Moderator Note:

Grain vs No Grain is just as divisive as Horns vs No Horns and each member has a right to make a decision based on their own herd and their own resources.  There is no right OR wrong answer to either issue.

Goats fed grain will grow more rapidly and reach peak performance (breeding age, slaughter weight) earlier than those feed a forage only diet.  That does not mean that a forage fed goat of the same age is too small for their age, it simply means that they are a forage fed goat...they are growing slower due to a lower volume intake.  Not everyone wants the same things out of their herd.  Not everyone wants to buy grain, not everyone has good forage to allow their goats to eat...everyone has different choices to make.  The point is - We are all in different shoes and all must walk a different mile, don't judge others when you're not walking in their shoes.


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## outdoorhoney (Aug 22, 2015)

Samantha drawz said:


> Frantic and absolutely acting as if I starved them ( I know that is totally normal as they are goats but the level of frantic was mind boggling). They destroyed my fence and part of my building in an attempt to get to the grain in the barn (they are outside the barn with a pen attached to it). They no longer care about the metal feed bins my rabbits feed is in, they are no longer beside themselves hollering outside the barn door when they get to come out of the pen. If I had video taped the frenzy they were in when it came time for their grain it would blow you away. Now that it is a rare treat when people come over to hand feed them they have become accustomed to not destroying the feed metal containers to get to any kind of feed.



 Although I am very sorry to hear you had to deal with your frantic goats, I couldn't help but find joy in your post. Mostly because I can relate to how it used to be for you! Remember how I mentioned my girls were crazy over grains? Everyday they get a new inch of attitude as they grow up and it's starting to get quite hectic during feeding time. I left the feed buckets in the pen this evening (mistake), so I went to grab them and bring them into the barn to fill up, as I opened up the gate to the girls pen without checking to see if the other gate out was shut (second mistake), Gertrude, my Alpine, bolted out and followed me to the barn I was not impressed by her bold maneuver.


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## samssimonsays (Aug 22, 2015)

outdoorhoney said:


> Although I am very sorry to hear you had to deal with your frantic goats, I couldn't help but find joy in your post. Mostly because I can relate to how it used to be for you! Remember how I mentioned my girls were crazy over grains? Everyday they get a new inch of attitude as they grow up and it's starting to get quite hectic during feeding time. I left the feed buckets in the pen this evening (mistake), so I went to grab them and bring them into the barn to fill up, as I opened up the gate to the girls pen without checking to see if the other gate out was shut (second mistake), Gertrude, my Alpine, bolted out and followed me to the barn I was not impressed by her bold maneuver.


I shouldn't laugh but I pictured it fully!  Yes, mine have done this and still do just for the attention but it's all a work in progress.    good luck with your ever increasing attitudes Lol.


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