# Nutrition and condition discussion



## SDGsoap&dairy

Didn't want to hijack another thread so I created a new one!  This is the post:

I'd like to join the discussion about condition in general.  I'd like to hear how everyone here balances having enough condition on a doe at kidding that when she starts stripping condition in early lactation you DON'T end up with a "walking skeleton," but yet your does are not so overconditioned as to cause kidding issues.  

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that it is darn tough in early lactation to put enough calories into a doe that she doesn't strip SOME condition without risking acidosis.  So you'd want them in decent enough condition at kidding that it's ok if they lose some condition in early lactation and you don't have to jeopardize the rumen by overfeeding grain.  Then you can focus on maintaining condition through lactation rather than trying to put it back on when they're producing.

The flip side of that, does that are overconditioned and have deposited large amounts of fat internally can be an equally disastrous situation.

Really, it seems to me that the goal shouldn't so much be going into kidding in good condition, it should be going into late GESTATION in good condition.  If you've hit the 30 day (prior to) mark and then start trying to put weight on a doe you could end up with a still skinny doe and enormous kids because they're putting all the nutrition into the growing fetus.

I'd love to hear more about everyone's approach to maintaining ideal condition throughout a single cycle of a doe's dry/open, gestating, lactating/open, lactating/gestating, dry/pre-kidding status.  This is (or should be) different for every doe so I'm not talking about quantities of feed here... but when do you typically see does having a harder time maintaining the ideal and how do you handle it?  What types of feed do those extra calories come from?  When are you most concerned with nutritional disorders (ketosis, hypocalcemia, etc.) and how do you adjust your feeding to handle that?  This is a huge topic, but I'd love to hear some input on everyone's nutritional goals and management practices.

And also, because ideal condition is somewhat subjective, maybe we can have some pics of "under, ideal, over."  The reality is that most likely everyone's does are not ALWAYS in the condition the producer strives for (whether they're over or under) because a doe's needs are never constant and you have to adjust based on results.


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## Livinwright Farm

I see this as being a GREAT educational thread on over-all goat condition(bucks & does)!


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## 20kidsonhill

I will get some pics of my heavier does at 3 weeks into lactating and a couple does that have come down on weight really fast. And discuss what I am doing in a herd situation (18does) to help them. 

Great topic idea.


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## aggieterpkatie

The time I'm most concerned about proper conditioning is after weaning but before re-breeding, especially for sheep.  That's the easiest time to put weight on a female, because she's not lactating (not including dairy goats) and she's not pregnant.  I want to go into breeding season in an ideal body condition so it doesn't interfere with her cycling and settling.  Once you get them at a good body condition, you can start the gestation period with a maintenance diet.  I only really up the intake when it's the last month or so of gestation.  My doe mainly loses condition in early lactation, and it's hard to catch up.  In dairy animals, I'd look to increase nutrition if needed (or decrease it if needed, but it's not likely) in the time before re-breeding.  By that time the doe is coming down from peak lactation and it will be easier to put weight on.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

If you look at my website, the pic of my senior doe Sandy is what I would consider her ideal condition.  She's dry/early bred in that photo.  If you look at the two ffs you can see junior photos.  Gabby is about 6 months and immature.  She's in a gangly stage, but a little under my ideal BCS nonetheless.  By the time she was 9 months she had matured and plumped up quite a bit.  LC is about 12 months in that photo and still open.  I didn't own her at the time and wouldn't have had my hands on her, but she's probably slightly over.  Not by much though, and going into her first breeding season I'd rather have my Jr. doe slightly over prior to late gestation than under.

My Jr. buck, Pie, is also 6 months in the website photo.  Their growth spurts seem to be up then out, up then out, rather than in both directions at once.   He was at the end of an up stage and about to hit an out stage.  He's a little lean in that pic, but 6 weeks later the condition he'd put on made him much more smoothly blended.  Here's a photo taken 6 weeks later than the website photo:


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## SDGsoap&dairy

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> The time I'm most concerned about proper conditioning is after weaning but before re-breeding, especially for sheep.  That's the easiest time to put weight on a female, because she's not lactating (not including dairy goats) and she's not pregnant.  I want to go into breeding season in an ideal body condition so it doesn't interfere with her cycling and settling.  Once you get them at a good body condition, you can start the gestation period with a maintenance diet.  I only really up the intake when it's the last month or so of gestation.  My doe mainly loses condition in early lactation, and it's hard to catch up.  In dairy animals, I'd look to increase nutrition if needed (or decrease it if needed, but it's not likely) in the time before re-breeding.  By that time the doe is coming down from peak lactation and it will be easier to put weight on.


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## 20kidsonhill

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> The time I'm most concerned about proper conditioning is after weaning but before re-breeding, especially for sheep.  That's the easiest time to put weight on a female, because she's not lactating (not including dairy goats) and she's not pregnant.  I want to go into breeding season in an ideal body condition so it doesn't interfere with her cycling and settling.  Once you get them at a good body condition, you can start the gestation period with a maintenance diet.  I only really up the intake when it's the last month or so of gestation.  My doe mainly loses condition in early lactation, and it's hard to catch up.  In dairy animals, I'd look to increase nutrition if needed (or decrease it if needed, but it's not likely) in the time before re-breeding.  By that time the doe is coming down from peak lactation and it will be easier to put weight on.


I agree, if you have gone into the pregnancy already under condition you aren't going to beable to put much weight back on, and you certainly aren't going to make much head way during lactating.


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## 20kidsonhill

I don't know how helpful this will be, but here are couple photos of does that are now 3 weeks into nursing that have come down on condition and in my opninion under weight. 


This doe is the example of in rough shape and dumpy looking.  We have kept her because her kids do well in the show rink. Our goal with her is just keep her alive.  She has learned that I will give her extra feed if she sticks around me, so she is on an extra feeding a day. she is high boer percentage maybe witha little dairy in her.







I am looking forward to trying the copasure on this doe below. She is milking a set of twins and they are growing like crazy and she is steady coming down on weight. She is 50%boer/50% Nubian






My 18 does are on 1 bale of alfalfa hay(45lbs), 1 bale of mixed 2nd cut grass hay(50lbs, free-choice goat minerals;

 1lb  of 16% pelleted medicated goat feed, 1/2 to 3/4 cups crimped(rolled)corn, and 1 cup dried beet  per doe. 

We kid mostly in winter, if I had pasture I wouldn't be feeding hay.

We wean at 8 weeks of age.

After weaning the does are only on pasture or if no pasture, hay.

They are put back on grain for 3week before breeding, then taken off when the buck is put in with them.

Tehy are then put back on grain 4 to 6 weeks before kidding 1lb per doe.


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## AlaskanShepherdess

I was just about to start a topic on the discussion of condition. Thanks n.smithurmand!

I am also very curious, right now all my my goats are together (1 buckling, four does) and I have stopped my "feed as much as they are satisfied with only" and all of them are rapidly putting the pounds back on. What I don't understand is why can't I do what "everyone else"  does and just throw out hay and not end up with over conditioned goats? Is it a nutrition problem, my cold climate (eating to produce heat), or lack of exercise?


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## TheMixedBag

Excellent idea (and again, apologies for yesterday. This doe's condition is a sore subject for me, as I will probably never be able to get her into any kind of "good" condition).

So, here's my situation. Everyone is fed together (1 buck, 2 does). I feed 3 scoops (4 quarter horse scoop) of alfalfa pellets, one scoop beet pulp, 2 handfuls of Manna Pro loose mineral and canola oil, with the occasional bit of alfalfa hay, usually about 3 flakes of compressed. Usually they all finish it off, only the nubian is ever shoved away from the feed, and she's still a little chunky. The other 2 share pretty well and usually get most of the feed.

Right now, this doe is at day 140 in pregnancy, and I'm expecting twins at best (ultrasound only showed a single). She's  pretty wide, but has no conditioning over her hips, back or shoulder, but she's got fat over her ribs and her tailbone, and along her brisket and underbelly. In my eyes, she's skinny, but not horribly under typical dairy goat condition (again, I see "show conditioned" does as overweight, but that's just me). She is from heavy producing lines, of which most does end up looking like this in the last month of pregnancy. As of right now, she's a shade over 2 years old (Feb/2009)
Right now, I am asking what I can do to improve her condition. As it is, I'm probably not going to start milking her until about 3/4 weeks after she kids, and work on building production up from there.





This buck, well, I'm about through with him. He's been skinny since I got him, and "growth spurt" as an excuse only goes so far. It doesn't matter what I feed him, he still feels skinny and looks skinny to me. Now admittedly, his breeder did say he would always be smaller, and he is only a yearling (he'll be 2 in April), but I don't see his condition as anywhere near ideal for a young buck. He does have fat over his ribs, but his skin is loose, and he's got virtually nothing over his hips or back. He's still in better condition than the doe, however.
He will  be going to his new home soon, however, so he's not as much of an issue.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

MixedBag, I'm assuming you and your vet have ruled out parasites through fecal analysis?

I had a nubian doe who was underconditioned when I got her and it took several months to get her into what I saw as fairly close to her ideal condition.  The VERY LAST place she started to put weight on was over her spine and hips and I felt like she never would!  She was wormed heavily when she arrived, just as part of our basic protocol, and then I gradually worked up her feed as high as I was comfortable with.  She was dry and bred when I bought her.

I don't have a "before" picture, which was silly of me, but this picture is taken less than 4 months after I bought her, about 7-10 days after she kidded:








At the time she was in better condition than when I bought her, but I still found that she didn't have enough condition to keep her going through early lactation without her ending up pretty scrawny.  This girl MILKED and there was no way to keep up with the calories expended without seriously risking acidosis.  I ended up trading her for a nigi with a friend, who started drying her off only about 3 months into lactation to start putting some weight back on her.

The way this doe is put together I really don't think you could ever completely smooth out her spine, hips, and rump without overconditioning her.  But my experience was that for early lactation the condition she has in the photo was not enough.  This is what I'd want to see and maintain following early lactation rather than going into it.


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## freemotion

I am very interested in this thread.  I read stuff here on byh and think....Oh, gotta go grain those preggers does!  They'll be metabolizing their own tissues to make kids!  Then I read another thread and think.....Oh, no, gotta stop graining those preggers does!  Big kids=hard deliveries!  I can get them back up after they kid.

And the buck....grain=UC....and the boy isn't interested much in any food when the girls smell so interesting.

I go back and forth, back and forth...... 

Now I'm starting to see that there may be differences in how the different breeds are handled with this, so....please, if you experienced ones chime in, tell us what breeds you are feeding, and if you think your decision as to how you feed may be breed specific or not.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

freemotion said:
			
		

> I read stuff here on byh and think....Oh, gotta go grain those preggers does!  They'll be metabolizing their own tissues to make kids!  Then I read another thread and think.....Oh, no, gotta stop graining those preggers does!  Big kids=hard deliveries!  I can get them back up after they kid.
> 
> I go back and forth, back and forth......


Totally.


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## TheMixedBag

right now, yeah, she's dealing with a bit of a worm load, but it's just roundworms, and it's only because I missed her second dosing, so I'm restarting today, and triple-dosing her (now, again in 10 days, and then again after that in 10 days) and calling it good until she looks like she needs it again. I really don't like to worm on a regular basis, I'm kind of limited in my choices of wormer, and right now I've got 3 different kids of Ivermectin (Ivomec, Zimectrin Gold and an apple flavored "cheap" zimectrin type paste) and Ivomec Plus, and that's pretty well it. 

She had her last fecal late Dec. with maybe one or two roundworms and that was it.

And just because they're in the other thread, this was what she looked like the day we picked her up, and what she looked like in July-ish, dried off and open. This is why I said she will never look like she's in good condition.





(about mid-June, the day we got her)




Late July-ish, just drying her off. She was producing approx. 3/4 of a gallon at this point)


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## 20kidsonhill

freemotion said:
			
		

> I am very interested in this thread.  I read stuff here on byh and think....Oh, gotta go grain those preggers does!  They'll be metabolizing their own tissues to make kids!  Then I read another thread and think.....Oh, no, gotta stop graining those preggers does!  Big kids=hard deliveries!  I can get them back up after they kid.
> 
> And the buck....grain=UC....and the boy isn't interested much in any food when the girls smell so interesting.
> 
> I go back and forth, back and forth......
> 
> Now I'm starting to see that there may be differences in how the different breeds are handled with this, so....please, if you experienced ones chime in, tell us what breeds you are feeding, and if you think your decision as to how you feed may be breed specific or not.


there is a huge difference in breeds  and individual animals with in a breed. I have full-blood boer all the way to 50% boer/ 50%nubian and the nubians could eat all day and not get fat, the boers on the other hand aren't in the feeder nearly as much and can put weight back on after the kids are weaned, very easily.  It is difficult feeding all 18 at the same time, especially while pregnant, since the big nubian percentage need more feed for their kids to grow and the boers don't need hardly any. Infact a boer doe will give you a set of 10lb triplets on grass hay or pasture, some water and loose minerals. 

Loose goat minerals(only for goats) and Bo-se shots seem to be a must with any of the breeds.  


I would rather risk a smaller set of triplets than have huge singles and twins on my full-bloods, the smaller kids will grow just fine, but I don't want to end up with a bunch of stillborns or loose my doe all together. I intentionally under feed, to keep kid size down. We also intentionally under feed our does when they are nursing, knowing they will come down on weight, but once weaned they will put it back on from summer pasture. I now I could keep throwing out alfalfa hay at 5 bucks a bale and dumping more grain, sun flowers, ectt.... to them and probably not have any of them loose weight, but our farm would go broke. 


I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC.  Plus free-choice grass hay.

Personally, I think it is whethers you have to be really careful with, but our show whethers are on free-choice grain for 6 to 8 months, depending on how old they are when they go to show, This equals around 3 to 4 lbs of grain a day. That is a lot of grain. They get a little bit of grass hay, like a handful a day. I have lost one Whether  to Uc, he was around 4 months old. We also band(castrate at 3to4weeks of age). This is a meat goat show, so they do go to slaughter after the show. 


I think the bottom-line is get to know your goats, the breeds you have, and if possible what are other farmers dealing with in your area.  Use all the information together to come up with a plan for your goats.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> right now, yeah, she's dealing with a bit of a worm load, but it's just roundworms, and it's only because I missed her second dosing, so I'm restarting today, and triple-dosing her (now, again in 10 days, and then again after that in 10 days) and calling it good until she looks like she needs it again. I really don't like to worm on a regular basis


I'm with you about not wanting to worm on a regular schedule, but rather worming as needed.  When you say "looks like she needs it," do you mean FAMACHA or general condition?  I'd disagree that it's a good idea to hold off on fecals until her condition looks like she needs it.  Worms can just take them down so fast, and by the time their general appearance is affected that's probably a pretty hefty load.  

My goat vet charges $21 to send fecals to a lab and the results are back within 24 hours.  I just had a discussion with him recently about worming programs and he suggested that goats are able to really hide a heavy load until it becomes an emergency situation.  Their skin and coat may appear normal, feces normal, body weight within normal range, etc.  Obviously you're not going to totally eliminate parasites, but my goal is to worm them before it begins to affect their health.


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## TheMixedBag

I go by eyes/gums. (I guess that's FAMACHA, thinking about it.  I really need to go to bed...) Believe me, I learned my lesson  about worming...had 2 goats die last summer from liver fluke because I was only using Ivomec and  not plus. I know how fast they can go down. My buck was down in a week and my doe went down in 4 days, tops.

In fact, I just popped outside and gave everybody about 5cc of Ivomec (orally), then realized I'll be lucky if I've got the 3 doses I need again in 10 days...oh well. I'm pretty sure Zimectrin can do just fine.

My vet  (sheep/cattle/pets, mostly, but does just fine  with my goats) only charges $7 but  does the exam there herself.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

$7?!  That's great.


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## TheMixedBag

yeah, but she sneaks the $15 walk-in fee, too. I don't mind it, most stuff she does is super-cheap for this area. She'll speuter pets for $30 or so if the animal is under 25 lb.


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## freemotion

Whoa!  Move the decimal point over one space for the average charges here!


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## freemotion

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC.  Plus free-choice grass hay.


Wow, really?  Have I been overly cautious?  Your grain has AC in it....hmmm....maybe I should find some AC and start graining...I feed sprouted oats, mostly.  I'd like to get some weight on that boy now, and not wait for spring vegetation to do it.  He is so thin.  He just gets hay and some alfalfa pellets right now.


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## 20kidsonhill

freemotion said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC.  Plus free-choice grass hay.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, really?  Have I been overly cautious?  Your grain has AC in it....hmmm....maybe I should find some AC and start graining...I feed sprouted oats, mostly.  I'd like to get some weight on that boy now, and not wait for spring vegetation to do it.  He is so thin.  He just gets hay and some alfalfa pellets right now.
Click to expand...

I am not saying I am a show person, but show people aren't keeping those bucks that plump by not feeding them grain.  Even my mature bucks get grained in the winter for 2 or 3 months, I am not saying I have never heard of a buck getting Urinary Calculi(UC), but I think it is mostly a whether problem, Or feeding an improperly mixed feed with no AC in it. 

Here is some information on CA to P ratios in hay.


http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_ratio.html


Here is some nutritional facts about ca to P

"   Phosphorous (P) - is also important on a daily basis.  It must be fed in the correct proportion to Ca  in your goats feed.  The ratio of Ca to P should never drop below 1.2 : 1 and vitamin D must also be available.  Calcium and P are  very important for lactating does and growing kids.  They require a Ca ratio of  @ 2:1 (two times as much Ca as P).  Too much P compared to Ca can lead to urinary calculi in wethers.  Pregnant does should not be fed a Ca ratio that is very high in Ca as this can predispose them to a metabolic disease called milk fever. In contrast, a doe needs a high Ca to P ratio once she is milking. This is because she is excreting lots of Ca every day in her milk. Most grains are high in P and low in Ca."

this is from the website:
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/4H/meatgoats/meatgoatfs15.htm


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## 20kidsonhill

I seperated this from the other post so it wouldn't get to lengthy,

 I am a big beleiver in Ca to P ratio in your herd management. I am also lazy, so I prefer to feed a good co-op mixed goat feed with AC in it rather than to deal with figuring out my own grains, but it can be done. 

Here is some ca to P information I pulled off of a horse website:

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml

"""So now that we're all properly impressed with the importance of a calcium-phosphorus ratio, how do you calculate one? Below are the calcium and phosphorus values for some commonly fed forages and grains: 

Feed                           Calcium (%) Phosphorus (%) 
Alfalfa hay, midbloom  1.24  0.22  
Bermuda hay, 29-42 days  0.30  0.19 
Oat hay                       0.29  0.23 
Orchardgrass hay, early bloom  0.24  0.30 
Timothy hay, midbloom  0.43  0.20 
Barley grain                 0.05  0.34 
Beet pulp, dehydrated  0.62  0.09 
Corn grain                    0.05  0.27 
Oat grain                  0.05  0.34 
Rice bran                     0.09  1.57 
Wheat bran                    0.13  1.13 


Keep in mind these are average values and may vary somewhat from region to region. 

To calculate a calcium-phosphorus ratio: 

1) Convert the number of pounds of each feed to kilograms by dividing pounds by 2.2. For example, let's say you want to know the ratio for a diet comprised of 15.4 pounds of bermuda and 4.4 pounds of oats. 15.4 divided by 2.2 = 7; 4.4 divided by 2.2 = 2. 

2) Multiply these numbers by both the calcium and phosphorus ..............go to the above link for the rest of the information, I didn't want the post to get to long."""


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## 20kidsonhill

freemotion said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feed my bucks grain until they are 2 years old. Yup!! Not just one cup, I am talking near a couple lbs a day(around 4cups) of grain, with AC in it, but I have never added extra AC.  Plus free-choice grass hay.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, really?  Have I been overly cautious?  Your grain has AC in it....hmmm....maybe I should find some AC and start graining...I feed sprouted oats, mostly.  I'd like to get some weight on that boy now, and not wait for spring vegetation to do it.  He is so thin.  He just gets hay and some alfalfa pellets right now.
Click to expand...

Sorry I got so lengthy on this I was trying to get to a point, notice on the chart that it says Oat grain is a ratio of .05 to .34 and the desired ratio of a non-lactating goat is 1.2 to 1 ca to P ratio, and the statement that Urinary Calculi is caused by too high a phosphorus ratio. In my opinion I would not feed them just the oats, even if you added the AC. The grain I am feeding(pelleted goat 16% protein) is nurtritionally formulated with a 2 :1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus. 

If you were to try and balance the oats with a hay that is higher calcium to phosphorus perhaps it would all balance out.  I am not a nutritionist and it is all complicated to me. Hence the reason why I just buy the pelleted goat feed and feed a mixed grass hay.


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## mossyStone

This as been my first yr to own a buck, this thread has help me alot, in trying to find a balance to keep him looking fit. I dont show but i dont want bones either... I will be looking into AC and a pelleted ration for him...


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## freemotion

It seems to me that mixing the oats with alfalfa pellets could balance them....if the math were correct.


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## 20kidsonhill

freemotion said:
			
		

> It seems to me that mixing the oats with alfalfa pellets could balance them....if the math were correct.


yes, I agree it could work, just need to sit and do the math and figure out how many parts of alfalfa to how many parts of sprouted oats to balance out the ration and take into account the type of hay you are feeding.  Then add a liitle AC to the sprouted outs to help even further with the UC.    Any other grains you are adding would also have to be looked at in the equation. 

You may also wish to look into the difference of Ca and P values in sprouted oats compared to non-sprouted.


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## Our7Wonders

freemotion said:
			
		

> It seems to me that mixing the oats with alfalfa pellets could balance them....if the math were correct.


Wow!  This sounds complicated!  Is there much info out there on ratios for sprouted grains?  I don't sprout but am currently soaking oats and barley and have new little guys that I'll need to get this figured out for.  Freemotion, if you find out any info on this will you please post it or PM me with it?  I'll see what I can figure out as well.

Thanks!


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## freemotion

There isn't much out there that I've found in past searches....I suspect that minerals are minerals and won't increase/decrease.  It is the protein and vitamin levels that I was originally attracted to, and the probiotics....also phytate neutralizing.  

However, when phytates are neutralized, mineral absorption is not blocked....hmmm....

I still think sprouting the grains dramatically changes the way the body utilizes them.  They become closer to "plants" and further from grains/starches.  

A high-carb diet in humans will cause and exacerbate gout, which is a build-up of uric acid crystals in the tissues.  I often wonder if UC is similar, since it seems to be tied into grain feeding.


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## TheMixedBag

Just an update on my skinny doe, and asking for more help.

Since she kidded, I've switched to a dairy ration (Busch Goat Feathercreek Dairy Ration), about 3 scoops (plus what she eats on the stand), one scoop of beet pulp, and about a flake or two of alfalfa hay, or whatever she eats in a day from that. What should I increase/decrease?

I am milking her in the morning, not pulling kids, and she's giving just under or at a quart a day, depending on if I milk her before the kids catch her first.













About that much^


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## SDGsoap&dairy

You're going to have a tough time getting any weight on her through early lactation.  If it were me, I'd have her eating as much grain and alfalfa as she can handle without risking acidosis.  She's going to continue to strip and she's already pretty darn lean.  It can get wasteful, but if she were here I'd probably nix any grass hay altogether and feed her straight alfalfa free choice to maintain ratios and provide extra protein.  I had a couple ffs who were looking a little lean a month or so in to lactation this year and just upping the grain, some extra BOSS, and really piling on the alfalfa has made a big difference.  Just be sure to make the grain increase gradually and be mindful of your calciumhosphorous ratios.

A friend has been having great luck with conditioning with rice bran and pointed out that it doesn't interfere with Cah ratios.  It's pricey, but with your doe's condition being what it is I'd really try not to let her lose weight.


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## helmstead

I would pull the kids and dry her off...then give her a good full year of conditioning feed and SEE if she improves.

I know it's harsh, but I wouldn't keep a doe that looked like that in milk...nor use her as breeding stock unless I were able to get her back into good flesh.


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## TheMixedBag

I really can't afford to bottle the kids (a gallon of goat's milk is like $9 around here, and I'm not about to use milk replacer), and you also can't forget-she's been like this her whole life. Yes, she's been fatter, but while she was milking last year she looked like this too.

However, I have been playing with the idea of drying her off once the kids are weaned, I'm just hoping there's something I can do without drying her off. She has gained a few pounds since I upped her feed ration, so at the very least what I'm feeding is maintaining her weight.


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## freemotion

Do you have anything green and growing there yet?  Nothing like real, live food to put weight on grazing animals and a shine on their coats.  If you don't have anything in her pen, you can cut and bring it too her.  I hang bundles of branches in the stall for anyone who needs a boost, it makes a HUGE difference.  Just know what is edible and what is poisonous in your area.  A hungry goat will eat poisonous stuff like wild azalea.  Actually, a fat goat will eat azalea. :/

Oh, and you can feed the kids whole cow's milk from the store, especially if you can get it on sale and freeze it.


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## TheMixedBag

There's some, and she is grazing on it, just not much. Our bushes are starting to come in, but I don't like her eating much of it, it tends not to grow back all summer...

If I have to (meaning, she starts losing weight instead of gaining), I can see about leasing a doe to continue feeding the doeling. But, so long as she's maintaining, I'm going to have to keep her in milk, for my sanity and wallet's sake.


----------



## freemotion

You can probably go off your property to get stuff.  I trim the edges of the xmas tree farm next to me while walking the dogs.  With permission.  Who doesn't want someone to trim back their brush and weeds?  I get lots of goldenrod, birch, poplar, maple, grapevines, etc.  I carry some twine or better yet, a few small ball bungees to bundle the stems.  I have a screw-eye in the stall with a clip and I just clip the bundles there, takes mere seconds.  They love to eat standing on their hind legs, so if your walls are slippery plywood or such, put a couple of small horizontal boards screwed into the wall so she can get purchase with her front feet when reaching for the higher branches.

I can't stress enough how big a difference this can make.  As long as she is worked up to it, you can't overdo the amounts of natural forages like you can with grain.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

I meant to add- they're also getting calf manna in addition to the 16% dairy ration, BOSS, and alfalfa.  The calf manna makes a difference.



			
				helmstead said:
			
		

> I know it's harsh, but I wouldn't keep a doe that looked like that in milk...nor use her as breeding stock unless I were able to get her back into good flesh.





			
				TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> ... you also can't forget- she's been like this her whole life... while she was milking last year she looked like this too.


I do have to agree with Kate about this... if I had a doe who I couldn't keep in condition I wouldn't use her in our breeding program.  Your girl has a FANTASTIC udder, there is no doubt about that MixedBag.  But for us, if a doe can't produce babies and milk AND keep herself in decent condition (with proper nutrition) I just don't see a place for them here.

I think the only caveat to that would be, if I ended up with a doe permanently damaged from cocci as a kid (or something environmental, not genetic) and the genetics were important to me I'd breed her, kid her out, then dry her off immediately and give her a break long enough between breedings to put the proper weight back on.

If it were me I would also be thinking about drying her off and giving her some time to see just what she's capable of, start to finish.  The biggest reason is that it's so tough to do anything about condition in early lactation except work to maintain weight.  That's why we like ours well conditioned before late gestation.

I think if you consider the added cost of feeding her just to maintain her weight through even 2 months of lactation it would probably offset the cost of cow's milk from the grocery store.  The trouble we ran into with our Nubian was that because she was under conditioned at kidding I couldn't possibly get enough grain into her to maintain her weight without causing acidosis.  I know this because I DID give her a mild case and had to back off.  You're going to have to pour the feed into her and the supplements that will be necessary to keep her from stripping condition (like calf manna, rice bran) are expensive.

Maybe you can split the difference and pull them and bottle feed with her milk.  Then, if a month into it you can see she's not doing well you have the option to dry her off.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I guess maybe I'm not as concerned about it because even her breeder isn't. She said she's a little underconditioned, but not anything that's particularly dangerous.

Then again, she's where I got my opinions about dairy goats and conditioning, so there you go. I can try to get the calf manna, but for now, the doeling is eating way too much for me to be able to afford cow's milk. I'm lucky if I have money between paychecks, and when we do have it, it's usually not able to go on anything but gas.

Finally, she was actually in pretty good condition before being bred and up to about the 3rd month of pregnancy. Then, she just decided that even though I was feeding better stuff, she was going to drop her condition, and she was overfed for the last month or so of pregnancy.

At any rate, for right now, with what I have, what can I increase/decrease to help her maintain/gain? And does Calf Manna equine work? Neither Atwoods nor the mill carry it, and TSC only has the stuff for horses.


----------



## Our7Wonders

My bag of calf manna has a listing for everything from chickens on up to cows - and everything in between.  Is there a separate one for horses?  I'm guessing it's all the same thing.


----------



## Our7Wonders

Ooops, forgot to mention, if you go to the manna pro website there is a $2.00 off coupon for the 50 pound bag of calf manna.  There's also one there for $1.00 any other manna pro product.  You can get calf manna in a 25 pound bag as well.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Manna-Pro's got a different listing for EVERYTHING...horses, cattle, goats,, swine, and rabbits. Wasn't sure if there was even a real difference or not.

http://www.mannapro.com/products/calf-manna/goats/


----------



## freemotion

Yes, I believe you are correct in that you got your conditioning advice from someone who is excusing underconditioned does.  You CAN do this!  I hope my story gives you some encouragement that it doesn't have to break the bank account:

I have two Alpines, my only goats that are not crosses.  They are both hard to keep in condition.  But if there is no muscling along the spine, that is clear indication that they are metabolizing their own tissues, which is rather dangerous and will do damage to the major organ systems.  It puts the animal....any species....at great risk from even the slightest glitch, bacterial or viral or in the case of goats, tummy upset.

I got the first Alpine as a pregnant rescue and did get her condition up quite nicely....she was about 2.5 months away from her due date, which I didn't know at the time, when I got her.  She was thin with a rough, thin coat at the end of December in New England.  I got her back into great condition without rumen issues by feeding her root veggies, pumpkins, squashes, any produce I could get my hands on for free, chopped fine, along with alfalfa pellets (couldn't find the hay that late in the season here) and beet pulp....and slightly sprouted barley for easily-digested protein.  She was in very good condition by the time she delivered a single buckling and continued to improve in condition even though she gave me more than a gallon a day of milk by the end of the first month.  She never got more than a pound of grain twice a day.  I pushed her food until she got slightly clumpy poo, then backed off.  Then after a week or two, I'd push it a bit further.  She was being fed coarse grass hay from a communal round bale (with chickens pooping on it and goats jumping all over it) and white bread (all over the poopy ground) and NO WATER anywhere to be seen when I picked her up.  It is a wonder she survived.  She had green frosting on her face from a cake the people had given her.  They were feeding leftovers from a homeless shelter. :/

Once things started to grow, I did as I stated above....she grazed all she wanted in my grass pasture and I hung bundles of branches once or twice a day for her to eat in a stall without competition from the other goats.  Yes, it was a lot of work for me, cutting brush and chopping veggies, rinsing grains and soaking beet pulp, but I had a sturdy doe and maintained her on a budget and without danger of acidosis.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

freemotion said:
			
		

> Yes, I believe you are correct in that you got your conditioning advice from someone who is excusing underconditioned does.


I would agree.



			
				freemotion said:
			
		

> ... if there is no muscling along the spine, that is clear indication that they are metabolizing their own tissues, which is rather dangerous and will do damage to the major organ systems.  It puts the animal....any species....at great risk from even the slightest glitch, bacterial or viral or in the case of goats, tummy upset.
> 
> Once things started to grow, I did as I stated above....she grazed all she wanted in my grass pasture and I hung bundles of branches once or twice a day for her to eat in a stall without competition from the other goats.  Yes, it was a lot of work for me, cutting brush and chopping veggies, rinsing grains and soaking beet pulp, but I had a sturdy doe and maintained her on a budget and without danger of acidosis.




I noticed a big difference in ease of conditioning in the summer when there was plenty of fresh browse available.  I definitely believe there is something to that.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I'd agree with you on it if her does were in bad condition, but they're not. They're in better condition than my doe, only because they're little pigs who sneak into the alfalfa every chance they get.


----------



## freemotion

Does she have a website with current pics?  



> I guess maybe I'm not as concerned about it because even her breeder isn't. She said she's a little underconditioned, but not anything that's particularly dangerous.
> 
> Then again, she's where I got my opinions about dairy goats and conditioning, so there you go.


Four people here disagree with your breeder, respectfully.  We are concerned about your doe, that's all.  This comment of yours seemed to indicate to me that you were questioning her wisdom concerning this.  This is where the internet gets tricky, did I misunderstand?  There is no tone of voice or facial expressions when we type into a little box.  Please know that we are concerned, not criticizing.

Maybe you can feed her more alfalfa, since that is what the breeder's does that are in good condition keep getting into?  I've found that alfalfa makes a huge difference, but it is very hard for me to find around here and feeding pellets, more than just a supplement, would be far too expensive.  Hence my creativity in finding something that is very healthy and really works well.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

freemotion said:
			
		

> Maybe you can feed her more alfalfa, since that is what the breeder's does that are in good condition keep getting into?  I've found that alfalfa makes a huge difference, but it is very hard for me to find around here and feeding pellets, more than just a supplement, would be far too expensive.


I really think that alfalfa is critical.


----------



## helmstead

All due respect, because you ARE trying to do something for the doe...

That breeder's cheese has slipped off her cracker.

The doe is emaciated.  She's a BCS of 1.  Her body is eating muscle to function, which will lead to major organ damage eventually.

You will not be able to get acceptable condition on her until you dry her off.  It will all go into her milk production, especially being a high production doe.  

When it's warm enough, I'll be shaving my does in milk for the shows.  They are in 'dairy condition'.  I'll post comparison photos.  BREED has nothing to do with it, mine are dairy does, too, and high production ones for their size.  Apart from size, the standard is pretty darn similar.  I can even post my Nubians shaved, if you want to see them lactating.

I don't mean to scare you or be cruel, but the doe we just had to euthanize due to emaciation (from a medical condition) looked about like this.  The stress of labor was too much for her.  Goats in that condition, if the wind blows funny, they're done.  

I do understand not wanting to loose a lactation, not wanting to buy milk, etc...but in the long scheme of things you're loosing this particular doe's future.  

I am just trying to convey the serious nature of her weight.  I've been there - I've had does that were emaciated when I got them, pregnant, etc etc.  Once you take the time to dry them off, give them plenty of time and food afterwards and get them in good condition - it WILL HOLD and you'll reap the rewards.

About Calf Manna, ADM makes a product that is a great substitute and is considerably cheaper, if you can get it.  Let me know if your feed store carries ADM and I'll send you the product number.


----------



## TheMixedBag

She's on all the alfalfa she can eat. I threw the last bale out there today, I'll be getting better quality Thursday. She's been on alfalfa pellets, too.

Now, if my nubian doe produces enough, I'll more than happily dry her off. She should still be lactating by May, I doubt her kids are going to be weaned that soon, and if she is, I can put her on the one-day milk test and this won't be a wasted year. I do want to reiterate though, she WAS in good condition when she was bred, and she stayed in good condition until about the 3rd month. I will also say, despite her looking emaciated, she does have fat on her, mostly the lower ribs and brisket area, and a bit behind the front legs, and despite her being thin, she's in great health otherwise, even though she had a pretty good wormload up until last week, when I finished her schedule. Even the feed change hasn't phased her, and neither did labor, and she was thinner then. I can hit her with Ivomec Plus and see what that does, and I can increase her feed, but I'd really like to know how much I should be feeding her. She's getting 2 scoops of grain (which she really doesn't like...), 2 scoops of dry beet pulp, canola oil and mineral. The scoops are the 4-quart horse scoops, and it's usually gone by the end of the day.

Also-no, they don't have recent photos (2010), but I will defend her, sorry. She's been raising goats and horses for a heck of a lot longer than I have, and nobody's in bad condition. 
Finally, can anybody actually see the picture of Zelda? It's Jenny, and I wanted to know what picture she was using.
http://horseofcorff.com/goats.htm


----------



## freemotion

Again, I will respectfully disagree.  I feel I need to say it a bit more strongly.  The doe is in frightening condition.  There is no fat on her....otherwise, she would not be metabolizing muscle.  There is essentially no muscling on her topline.

I was in the horse industry full-time for decades and many people think you can look at the belly to see if a horse is fat or thin.  No.  You need to look at the topline.  Remember those commercials of starving children in Africa?  Remember the emaciated faces and arms and the HUGE bellies?  If the topline shows the outline of each vertebra, and you can clearly see each transverse process and even the bodies of the vertebrae....yikes.  Yes, you will see the tips of the spinous processes on a doe in decent condition in some of the dairy gals.  But not the other parts of the bones.

If she is getting that much food, there is something else going on.  What is her FAMACHA score?


----------



## TheMixedBag

Fine. Nice and pink. Like I said, though, she's milking enough now (1 week into lactation) to feed 3 kids with a little bit left over for us, and her kids look like they've doubled in size....

Also...wrong size (I think) on the scoop. It's basically this thing, just square.
http://www.jeffersequine.com/product.asp?camid=EQU, EQU&pn=IA-SL&cn=25592


----------



## ohiogoatgirl

i have two saanens that are both bred and due about may 18. but they look skinny to me. not terrible starvation skinny just skinnier then i would like. i have been comparing them now to pics of them in the summer before they were bred. you can tell they have a baby bump but other then that they are the same basically. but i havent upped their feed (i was feeding a little more then what i read because i thought they were skinny so i only upped their feed about a palm full since breeding). should i add something to their feed or feed more???
i've been thinking i want to add b.o.s.s. but i wasnt sure how much to add.

also i want to add things i grow to their mixed feed (amaranth, quinoa, carrots, turnips, parsnips, mangels, beets, etc.) and i'm not sure how to add that either...

thanks!


----------



## ksalvagno

I think one of the best investments I made was a livestock scale. You would be surprised what your animal really weighs. I weigh my animals on a regular basis so I can make sure I'm dosing wormers/medications correctly and it definitely helps with keeping up with overall body condition. Getting your hands on the animal is also important. 

I had purchased an Alpine in milk from Craigslist. While I didn't have much experience with goat condition, I knew she was way too thin and she was looking like the girls on that website link. She was only 95 lbs and from what I could find on the internet, an Alpine should weigh at least 125 lbs. She is now 135 lbs and I still think she looks thin but definitely nothing like she was before. But she is a heavy milker and it is really hard to keep up her weight. But she basically gets as much grain as she can eat on the milkstand and I even let her keep eating after I'm done milking while I'm collecting things and getting ready to go back inside. Also I have alfalfa/grass mix hay.


----------



## freemotion

ohiogoatgirl said:
			
		

> i've been thinking i want to add b.o.s.s. but i wasnt sure how much to add.
> 
> also i want to add things i grow to their mixed feed (amaranth, quinoa, carrots, turnips, parsnips, mangels, beets, etc.) and i'm not sure how to add that either...
> 
> thanks!


Most people add about a half cup of BOSS per feeding to a full-size goat. 

The seeds, add to your grain mix.  I'd sprout them, personally, but I am big on sprouting.

The root veggies....chop 'em up into small pieces, either with a knife or a food processor slicing blade.  Start with about a cup per feeding if they are getting only hay, maybe double that if they are on pasture and are used to "live" foods.  Then up it every few days and watch their poo for clumpiness.  Back off at the first sign of clumpy poo.  You may increase it again after a week or so if it is a very thin goat needing a big boost, just watch that poo.  I got a doe that resembled TheMixedBag's Saanen into good condition while preggers and she continued to improve in spite of a generous lactation.  She is on her third pregnancy here, without a break, and is very difficult to dry off.  The fresh foods are a lot more work but make a huge difference.  When I have lots to feed, I chop a bucketful before bed every other night and put it in the spare fridge for two days of feeding.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> She's getting 2 scoops of grain (which she really doesn't like...), 2 scoops of dry beet pulp, canola oil and mineral. The scoops are the 4-quart horse scoops, and it's usually gone by the end of the day.


That is an enormous amount of grain... That's 32 cups of grain per day if it's a 4 quart or 24 cups per day if it's a 3 quart.  When I was trying to maintain our nubian's condition at lactation she was eating around 7-8 dry measuring cups of grain per day.  And that was pushing her, any more than that and she'd end up with clumpy/dog log poop.

Just to give us all a range of grain intake, what is everyone feeding their late gestation/early lactation does in either lbs or dry measuring cups?


----------



## TheMixedBag

I (finally) found the actual size of the scoop-it's either a 2 quart scoop or a 1 quart, I'm not 100% sure.

And, I've basically just said screw it. She's not going to get better than this, so once she's dry, she's done. I may give her back and let them breed her if they wish, but I'm sure as heck not going to again.


----------



## freemotion

If it is a one quart, that is what my rescued skinny doe got 2x a day, along with ALL the other things, veggies, brush, pasture, alfalfa, beet pulp, BOSS, and the grain was sprouted, dramatically increasing its food value.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> And, I've basically just said screw it. She's not going to get better than this, so once she's dry, she's done. I may give her back and let them breed her if they wish, but I'm sure as heck not going to again.


She may surprise you if she has some time off to flesh out.  You mentioned she did fine until she was 3 months bred and that she did have a heavy worm load.  She looks like she has a ton of potential... Maybe with some time to gain as a dry/open doe you can hit that 3 month mark with her being a little over conditioned.  That extra padding should get her through late gestation so that she kids at her ideal weight and you aren't fighting an uphill battle through early lactation.

Don't give up on her yet... I would REALLY want to give her a full year to see what she's capable of before moving on.  Worst case scenario, even if she proves just to be an unthrifty doe and you sell her after another kidding/lactation, I think that there would be value in the practical experience with nutrition management.


----------



## TheMixedBag

So basically I've been starving her then? Honestly, I'm lucky if she does finish it by night. She was herd queen, too, so it's not like she was pushed away from it.


----------



## Ariel301

I'm dealing with one of those walking skeletons. Gracee's a LaMancha doe, 7 years old. I bought her two years ago at a commercial goat dairy. She was really thin and had a rough, matted coat when I got her, and also bad back feet. I think she broke one hind foot at one time, it is sort of deformed now and she limps on it. Lately she seem stiff in the other leg too. 

I got a little weight on her last year when I stopped milking her early, but it came back off again. She milks well, about a gallon a day. She is nearly impossible to dry off, I quit milking her for a month and there was still milk in her udder. I emptied it, and she filled it back up again. She kidded two bucklings the first of February who are nearly weaned now. They are huge and fat. I can see every bone in her body but she's still milking great. 

Right now she's in her own pen with all the alfalfa she can eat, plus a big tub of alfalfa pellets, all she can eat. I give her another tub of brewer's grain, all she can eat. She eats a generous portion of all three. I also give her grain on the milkstand, twice a day, all she can eat in 20 minutes each time. (She's taking about four pounds a day) It's a mix of sprouted organic grains and alfalfa pellets, top dressed with minerals, a half cup of calf manna, and a half cup of corn oil. On a diet like that, she ought to be FAT. But she's not. She's not gaining anything, even when dry and not bred on that same diet, she doesn't get more than maybe a 1.5 body condition score. She's also always pretty pale in the eyelids compared to a FAMACHA chart, but consistently has a clean fecal exam, no teeth problems, and tested CAE negative. I can't find any reason why she would be anemic. I really don't know what more to do for this girl.


----------



## Our7Wonders

I'm curious - do the does that you guys have problems with get a copper bolus or a copper supplement of some kind beyond the regular loose mineral?  I know copper isn't a cure all but I've heard people report that it helped put weight on hard keepers.  And I've also heard that anemia can be tied to copper deficiency.

If you haven't already been giving them copasure it might be worth considering anyway.


----------



## Roll farms

I need to get a picture of Foxy and join in this discussion.

She's the ONLY doe (out of 25 or so) that I always want to hide when people come here, she just looks painfully skinny.  You can't feel her ribs or backbone, but I swear she's not 6" across....The only time she looks "good" is when she's preggo.

She's a heavy milker, from good lines.  

She gets BOSS and Calf Manna on the stand and I purposely leave her up there longer than the others so she gets to eat more....but she stays as thin as a rail, regardless.

I call her my 'supermodel' doe / "Twiggy".


----------



## helmstead

What age did you get her at, Roll?  Sounds like she may have been a cocci baby?  My doe Tiny is like that, but I got good weight on her last year (was no small feat) and she held it really well this freshening.  But, her frame still says cocci baby to me...I can never fix that.  Her doe kid I retained last year already weighs more than she does.


----------



## Roll farms

I got her as a very ill weanling, and she started cocci prev. then.

She came from a 'show herd'.  She got here w/ a snotty nose / cough...
I had her delivered by a friend who lived near the breeder and didn't *know* that her hunched posture / shivering / wet nose meant she was ill.  

When I contacted the breeder, he got very snotty w/ me (no pun intended) and told me I could bring her back, it was no big deal, just a bug his goats brought home from a show, yadda yadda.  

The breeder had also told me before I saw her in person that "Her line does better if you breed them as 2 yr olds, to give them time to mature."

Most cocci kids I've seen never get very tall.  They just seem sort of dwarfed.
Now, she's not "small"...she's actually one of my taller does.  But she has NO depth.  None.  Just no 'frame' if you know what I mean.  Lots of bone, but no meat on it.  She's 4 now, and just freshened the 2nd time...she's the Nub I always breed boer who gives me the awesome flashy spotted kids...and she's Reggie (paint who keeps 'sort of' prolapsing on me)'s dam.  Reggie has a lot more depth than Foxy, but still is on the small-framed side, IMHO.

Here is her 'baby' pic







As a dry yearling.  She got tall fast, just doesn't gain...






As a very early preggo 2 yr old






And this is the only shot I have of her from this year (besides her udder...) but it shows that when preggo, she *does* get a belly.  That was carrying twins.






I will try and get some better pics today.

Whoops, forgot to show Reggie, for comparison


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

She looks pretty fleshy in her late preggo pic and you mentioned you can't feel ribs or spine... Is it possible her conformation is to blame?  A dairy goat who's narrow, has poor spring of rib, lacks body capacity, lacks depth, etc. would probably appear to be pretty rangy even if they weren't under conditioned.  From her dry yearling pic it almost looks like if she had better depth/width her condition would appear totally normal.  It'd be easier to tell if she were clipped I think, but she doesn't look super angular like she would if she were underweight.  This is your area of expertise Kate, what do you think?

I should add... fleshy for a dairy gal, next to your boers she probably looks like a twig!


----------



## TheMixedBag

Nobody carries Copasure except for 0SU, and I couldn't afford their prices even if I wanted to. I tried last year when Jenny wouldn't get bred, and couldn't find any. The loose mineral has 1350 ppm, though.


----------



## Roll farms

You can order Copasure through Jeffers.    I think it was 40 bucks for a jar.

Here are pics of Foxy today...
Spring of rib?  Hahahaha...she has NONE.

Rear / udder before milking






From the side she looks "okay"...not scary, anyway.











But from behind....


----------



## PJisaMom

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Nobody carries Copasure except for 0SU, and I couldn't afford their prices even if I wanted to. I tried last year when Jenny wouldn't get bred, and couldn't find any. The loose mineral has 1350 ppm, though.


I can send you a few capsules of copasure if you pm me your address.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

This is my goat Malina she is almost a year old, I was told she is a Nubian/Alpine probably a miniture Nubian.

Her feed is 

Alfalfa 
Costal hay 

Both of the above she only nibbles on she prefers to forage eating wild brush on the land.

She is offered ( Goat ) mix grain with alfalfa pellets
Free choice in its own bowl loose goat minerals 
Some crack corn 

She mostly just eats brush per her choice.
She is kind of standing odd in this picture she isn't use to us holding her in one place we usually just let her be a goat and do her goat thing. 
This picture was taken 2 months ago when we first notice she started growing a bulge she is pregers  





Here she is in her yard.






This is our male goat Kuzco


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

I'm fine with Cinnamon, if anything she looks sort of fat to me. But Tansy... Ehh, she hasn't done very spectacularly for a "Boer" anything, regardless if she was mixed with other breeds. Their eye colors are fine, they haven't been light since I bought either of them, so I haven't dewormed. Would you recommend doing so anyway? I have no way to do fecals, so I have to go by what the eye color tells me.

Also, Copasure? I'm afraid of how much that would cost me after the recent talk on this very thread! Yikes! I need to throw some minerals out there! Do you suppose Tansy is copper deficient? She's always been kind of scrawny...

Also... Bo/se. Will Tractor Supply have that? I haven't seen it there yet, and they've been given their CD/T shot now on the twelfth, so should I give them a booster in the next three to four weeks per the bottle, or is that only for new kids? I'm new to goat birthing, this is my first year with them, and they're first fresheners as well, so we'll see how it goes. I just don't want to give them so much that the kids get stupid fat and I have to work to get them out.

I felt Cinnamon's kid(s) kicking while she was laying down beside me a few days after I noticed she and Tansy were developing their udders, but so far Tansy hasn't let me check out her sides except when she's standing and eating. I can feel a solid sort of lump, but no movement. I mean, the thing floats around inside her, but it hasn't kicked at me yet. She won't lay down next to me so I can get a good feel because she was wild when I got her and is now tame enough to be a goat instead of a flight risk. She wouldn't let me feel her udder, so I had to leash her and pin her against the wall to check her.

So... Should they be on alfalfa too? Reduced grain rations?
Sorry to sort of hijack the thread here, but I'm a worrywart and have been wondering how this will all work out. Been checking ligaments fanatically since I noticed udder development, and everything is still solid so I think there's still time left.

On a separate note... I wish I had a real barn!! The birds will be locked out at all times once one of the goats shows signs of labor.



Anyway... Sorry about rambling. /end post


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Yeah Roll, in those pics she does look lean.  BUT, that's about as slab sided as I've ever seen a doe and even if she were OVER conditioned she'd still be narrow.

Edited to add: She is looooong though isn't she?  And I love her legs.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Nobody carries Copasure except for 0SU, and I couldn't afford their prices even if I wanted to. I tried last year when Jenny wouldn't get bred, and couldn't find any. The loose mineral has 1350 ppm, though.


I also order mine through Jeffers.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

Duck Keeper said:
			
		

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6gt-gG46-A
> 
> How would you guys rate my goats?
> The stuff I feed them is included in the video description, but on top of that they have a couple of round bales to choose from, though they prefer the coarser stuff to the hay the guy I got it from was selling for horses.
> 
> I'm fine with Cinnamon, if anything she looks sort of fat to me. But Tansy... Ehh, she hasn't done very spectacularly for a "Boer" anything, regardless if she was mixed with other breeds. Their eye colors are fine, they haven't been light since I bought either of them, so I haven't dewormed. Would you recommend doing so anyway? I have no way to do fecals, so I have to go by what the eye color tells me.
> 
> Also, Copasure? I'm afraid of how much that would cost me after the recent talk on this very thread! Yikes! I need to throw some minerals out there! Do you suppose Tansy is copper deficient? She's always been kind of scrawny...
> 
> Also... Bo/se. Will Tractor Supply have that? I haven't seen it there yet, and they've been given their CD/T shot now on the twelfth, so should I give them a booster in the next three to four weeks per the bottle, or is that only for new kids? I'm new to goat birthing, this is my first year with them, and they're first fresheners as well, so we'll see how it goes. I just don't want to give them so much that the kids get stupid fat and I have to work to get them out.
> 
> I felt Cinnamon's kid(s) kicking while she was laying down beside me a few days after I noticed she and Tansy were developing their udders, but so far Tansy hasn't let me check out her sides except when she's standing and eating. I can feel a solid sort of lump, but no movement. I mean, the thing floats around inside her, but it hasn't kicked at me yet. She won't lay down next to me so I can get a good feel because she was wild when I got her and is now tame enough to be a goat instead of a flight risk. She wouldn't let me feel her udder, so I had to leash her and pin her against the wall to check her.
> 
> So... Should they be on alfalfa too? Reduced grain rations?
> Sorry to sort of hijack the thread here, but I'm a worrywart and have been wondering how this will all work out. Been checking ligaments fanatically since I noticed udder development, and everything is still solid so I think there's still time left.
> 
> On a separate note... I wish I had a real barn!! The birds will be locked out at all times once one of the goats shows signs of labor.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway... Sorry about rambling. /end post


They look like they have plenty of condition on them. 

As far as deworming they look like they are doing fine.

As far as Bo-Se , that is vet RX and you have to buy it from a vets office, ranges form 16 to 30 bucks depending on where you live.

The Co-pasure is 40 dollars for 25 capsules and your goats could share a capsul, so you could try buying a couple capsules from someone on here.

As far as minerals, I am big big big on loose-goat only minerals kept out free choice, I feel if you did anything for you goats other than fresh water, good hay or pasture, have out Goat Minerals.

The CD& T is given once a year to adult goats, after they have had the initial 2 or 3 shots, so if they haven't had it before you would treat them the same as the kids. It is 2cc given under the skin, then again in 3 weeks and then again in another 3 weeks and then one time a year.  A small bottle is cheap ($4or $5)and a syringe and needle is like 50cents. 


They look very well taken care of.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody carries Copasure except for 0SU, and I couldn't afford their prices even if I wanted to. I tried last year when Jenny wouldn't get bred, and couldn't find any. The loose mineral has 1350 ppm, though.
> 
> 
> 
> I also order mine through Jeffers.
Click to expand...

I got mine through Valleyvet.com  It was $41.00, free shipping and handling over $60, so I ordered some Gel capsules that were 15 bucks for 100 caps, and some wormer.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Ok, I picked up more alfalfa pellets and some Calf Manna today, about how much should I be feeding her with what I have? She ate only the beet pulp and mineral yesterday, so I'm going to try and convince her to finish it today.

No more straight alfalfa, except for what she left yesterday, which is maybe a flake's worth.

Also-in case I totally forgot and nobody could tell at all, the photos are of her shaved nearly bald, so you can see every inch of everything. She also doesn't have any spring of rib, she's about as narrow as that Nubian doe, skinny or no.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Ok, I picked up more alfalfa pellets and some Calf Manna today, about how much should I be feeding her with what I have? She ate only the beet pulp and mineral yesterday, so I'm going to try and convince her to finish it today.
> 
> No more straight alfalfa, except for what she left yesterday, which is maybe a flake's worth.
> 
> Also-in case I totally forgot and nobody could tell at all, the photos are of her shaved nearly bald, so you can see every inch of everything. She also doesn't have any spring of rib, she's about as narrow as that Nubian doe, skinny or no.


In the photo I posted of my buck on page 1 he is shaved nearly to the skin.  He was clipped with a #7 blade reversed, with is slightly shorter than a #10 with the grain.  You can indeed see every inch of everything.  The smoothness over the processes, spine, ribs, hips, etc. is from flesh and not hair.  I also don't think he's over conditioned in that photo, dairy or otherwise.

I'd want her eating as much alfalfa as is possible but I've found that pellets only get us so far.  There is a finite amount of concentrate my goats are willing and able to eat.  If you're already having a tough time getting her to finish a large volume of concentrates then I think switching 100% to alfalfa pellets instead of hay isn't going to be helpful.  Particularly since the concentrates are proving to be self-limiting for your doe, I'd really want to #1 provide as nutritious a roughage as possible and #2 feed a roughage that helps balance the cah ratios.


----------



## TheMixedBag

It's not that I want to, I just cannot get any more until next Thursday when I get my check. Only Atwoods has reasonable bales right now, and they're $11 a bale, and I spent all of what I had on the pellets and calf manna. She will stuff herself stupid on the pellets, though, I've never had a problem with her eating it.

The only other roughage she has is a timothy/oat hay that's got maybe 8% protein, and it's only there as backup feed/bedding. She is grazing, though, so there's just enough greenery to keep her happy, and I don't know if I'm hallucinating, but she does look better from yesterday.


----------



## Roll farms

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Yeah Roll, in those pics she does look lean.  BUT, that's about as slab sided as I've ever seen a doe and even if she were OVER conditioned she'd still be narrow.
> 
> Edited to add: She is looooong though isn't she?  And I love her legs.


Yeah, loooooong and I, too, love her legs...part of why I keep her, I love how she stands.  
One of these years I'm going to have to breed her Nubian and keep a daughter, see if Chaos (our buck) can improve her capacity and depth.

I have does that look 'fat' who you can feel more bones on, though...it's just the wierdest thing w/ her...
She looks like she should be bonier than she is, I guess is what I'm saying.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> It's not that I want to, I just cannot get any more until next Thursday when I get my check. Only Atwoods has reasonable bales right now, and they're $11 a bale, and I spent all of what I had on the pellets and calf manna. She will stuff herself stupid on the pellets, though, I've never had a problem with her eating it.
> 
> The only other roughage she has is a timothy/oat hay that's got maybe 8% protein, and it's only there as backup feed/bedding. She is grazing, though, so there's just enough greenery to keep her happy, and I don't know if I'm hallucinating, but she does look better from yesterday.


its 12.00 a bale here but for just the 1 girl it really goes a long way especially if they are able to get to weeds and brush.


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

Hooray! I'm doing something right! 

I got alfalfa hay for them today, and gave them a couple handfuls. They weren't very interested until they had eaten their pellets (probably because this bale is more stemmy/grassy than leafy like previous bales I've bought, and for some reason it's sort of... chopped up? Guessing it's due to the season). I think tomorrow I can get minerals for them, but I'm not certain - however, I WILL be getting some as soon as possible. I'm very happy that they haven't had to be dewormed since I got them... Well, Tansy was dewormed the day she came here by the previous owner, but other than that they've had decent body scores and good eye color, so I'm not worried. The longer they don't need it, the better their resistance, which is what I'm going for. 
Tansy's gone since June, Cinnamon since October for sure because I don't know if she was dewormed at her last place (I'm going to guess not though).

So do you think I should reduce the Calf Manna even further, or just keep on doing what I have been? I uncovered another bale today, and they went crazy over their new fodder. 
Goats just like to eat something different than the stuff they've been getting don't they? 


Also... I'd love to buy a couple capsules of Copasure from someone, but with no money of my own it's a bit difficult. :/
Read: Impossible.


----------



## freemotion

Duck Keeper said:
			
		

> Also... I'd love to buy a couple capsules of Copasure from someone, but with no money of my own it's a bit difficult. :/
> Read: Impossible.


Um.....if you are a minor (I'm guessing by the way you worded the above) PLEASE do NOT pm your address to anyone here.  There are other ways to be creative about it.  If there are any goat farms in your area, you might offer to trade something for a few boluses.  You only need one or less per goat depending on their size, probably half per goat.  Or you could find some way to make a few dollars, maybe sell something or help someone spring clean their stalls or dig up their garden (things I'd like help with!  ) and offer to buy what you need from someone local to you.  A big container is expensive, but each individual bolus is not worth very much so it should be doable.

Think creatively!

I traded some earrings for some!  Well, actually someone offered to give me some but I gave her two pairs of pearl earrings for her trouble.  We both felt we got the better end of the trade.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Roll farms said:
			
		

> One of these years I'm going to have to breed her Nubian and keep a daughter, see if Chaos (our buck) can improve her capacity and depth.


I would want to do the same.  What's funny is that her hips look really wide still.  Has she always been an easy kidder?  She really has some nice qualities to contribute, despite the narrowness.


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

Oh don't worry about me, I'm all about internet safety. 
No job is my main issue. :/

I would have no problem bartering though, so I guess if I could find some local goat raisers that keep it on hand I might be able to work something out.



I think your Nubian is cute (yay spots!), but yeah, if I owned her I'd wonder why she was like that too. But with the input about conformation it makes sense. Edit: Yes! Breed her back to Nubian! 
I want to see those floppy eared spotty babies! 


Do goats really like beet pulp?
I've always read that you have to soak it and be all fancy, but I doubt Tansy would go for something soggy. She's a little bit of a picky eater. As in, won't eat pine or hay if she thinks it isn't right, whereas my other goats would.


----------



## freemotion

All of my goats like beet pulp.  You don't have to soak it, but I do, as it makes it bulkier and slows them down on the milking stand.  If you get the amount of water just right (I use hot water and put enough to cover it and a bit more, like cooking rice) and let it sit for a bit (half hour?  Less?) it will not be soggy but more like fresh beets.  Sort of.


----------



## ksalvagno

If it is shredded beet pulp, then you shouldn't have to soak it. I used to feed it to the alpacas if I had a girl that needed more conditioning. They would scarf it down. I believe they still sell the beet pulp with molasses on it. You could always try that. I bet she would like it with molasses on it.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Since she's not really showing interest in the sweet feed, I gave her 2 scoops alfalfa pellets, 2 scoops beet pulp and a half a scoop Calf Manna, and so far, she's pigging on it.

I may also be imagining, but she's looking better overall now that Maverick's gone and I started her on different feeds. She's still got loose stool (more like dog poo right now), but I cannot find my full tube of Probios, so I kinda just have to let her ride with it. It's not really bothering her much, so we'll see how it goes.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Since she's not really showing interest in the sweet feed, I gave her 2 scoops alfalfa pellets, 2 scoops beet pulp and a half a scoop Calf Manna, and so far, she's pigging on it.
> 
> I may also be imagining, but she's looking better overall now that Maverick's gone and I started her on different feeds. She's still got loose stool (more like dog poo right now), but I cannot find my full tube of Probios, so I kinda just have to let her ride with it. It's not really bothering her much, so we'll see how it goes.


Wasn't she on a 16% dairy ration before?  Switching feeds would certainly contribute to soft poop.  I've only ever seen sweet feed at 10% protein... if I needed to cut costs and had to choose between feeding sweet feed and calf manna or just a 16% dairy concentrate alone I would definitely feed the 16%.

Glad to hear she's looking better!


----------



## TheMixedBag

It's got molasses in it, so it's a sweet feed/grain/dairy ration thingy. It's Busch Goat Feathercreek Dairy Ration, 16%. If I could feed it by itself, I would, but she won't have it, so it's back to the pellets and calf manna with a bit of the ration mixed in just to use it.


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

Oh she'd definitely go for it if there was molasses on it! 
Good idea.
I'm not sure what the feed store sells, or how much it is even, but I'll see what I can do tomorrow. I think I'm definitely getting more minerals to put out, and from now on that'll always be free choice.
If they have something for copper in the right price range I might pick that up too. Heh... I feed my goats better than I do myself.
(I don't take any vitamins... Shh!)

I want to grow a huge plot of turnips and beets and winter squash and things to keep them going through the winter this year... I mean, a couple packets of seeds is a heck of a lot cheaper than buying bag after bag of grain and tons of hay all winter long when there's nothing green except for the pine trees. :/

I could sink a plastic drum into the dirt and fill it with root veggies and have a primitive root cellar sort of thing. Stuff it with hay and cover it with a few square bales and you're set.


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

I'm really glad your doe is gaining too MixedBag! 
It's always good to see them improve.

Anyone feed sunflower seeds? Or any other seeds for that matter - I hear they're very good for goats. I bet they might help with weight, but a bag of black oil sunflower seeds is expensive...

Sorry for so many questions... This is supposed to be a discussion, not a FAQ section! :/


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Duck Keeper said:
			
		

> Sorry for so many questions... This is supposed to be a discussion, not a FAQ section! :/


This is a discussion AND a FAQ section. 

I do feed BOSS.  It's around $19 per 50 lb bag here, but that's a whole lot of BOSS considering the amount fed.  We top dress with it for our lactating does or anyone who looks like they need the extra fat.  They only get a handful, so a 50 lb bag will last.


----------



## TheMixedBag

The molasses comes premixed in it, and she wants none of it unless it's mostly something else.

The only real thing I've noticed getting better on her is the sides of her spine are a bit less noticeable and her ribs a bit less visible.


----------



## Ariel301

Someone requested I post photos of this doe here. I rescued her from an animal hoarder last year, but we were not able to save her. This is definitely an underconditioned doe! This photo was taken two days before she kidded. This was a big tall LaMancha cross doe, she should have been about 150 pounds when not pregnant, but here at 4 1/2 months pregnant (she kidded prematurely) she was about 80 pounds. She went down later the day this was taken and did not get up again until a few days later, during which time she was fed nothing but grain because she would not eat anything else. 







Here's my chronically thin doe, Gracee. I think she may have been a cocci baby, she's on the small side and always skinny and anemic, despite proper feeding. She's a milk machine though, she gives me 3/4 of a gallon a day right now and it's so creamy that the milk actually separates like cow's milk if I leave it in the fridge a few days, I can't do that with any of my other goats. This is in her winter coat, and 4 weeks before kidding. Shaved, you can count every bone in her body.





This goat is eating about half the food Gracee eats.  She's in what I would consider good condition for a doe producing a gallon a day, and at 10 years old. She's not overweight, but not too thin either. She gets all the hay she wants and only a handful of grain at milking time, she's a really easy keeper.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I am pretty sure Jenny wasn't a cocci baby (though with as short as she is, it's possible I guess), but with the way she handles her weight, couldn't it be possible that she'll be fine being thin? I mean, obviously right now she's not in acceptable condition, but I'm pretty sure now that she's only feeding 2 kids again, the weight should be coming back more easily. She is still only 2 weeks fresh, so I'm going to give her more time to see how she does with the Calf Manna, but I'm not going to expect her to ever be in "good condition" (at least not to anyone else).

Also, I have heard that kids are a good indication of a doe's health, and if that's the case, there is nothing wrong with her. They gotta be 20 lb by now...


----------



## freemotion

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Also, I have heard that kids are a good indication of a doe's health, and if that's the case, there is nothing wrong with her. They gotta be 20 lb by now...


True up to a point....the babies of any species will be favored over the mother during gestation, and the mother will end up depleted, sometimes seriously, in favor of healthy babies.  But there can still be an invisible (to most people) impact of the deficiency during gestation.  For example, in humans, crooked, crowed teeth are not in one's dna.  They are a result of nutritional deficiency in the mother during pregnancy, and are epidemic today because of our ridiculous lack of honest nutrition education and lack of nutrients in monocropped and gmo foods.

I still suggest that you find a source of fresh produce to supplement her with....local grocery or restaurant that may toss older produce or kitchen waste, but particularly root veggies like carrots, beets, rutabagas, turnips.  Along with all the other things you are doing.  You won't have to do this forever, but it will give her a HUGE boost.  You could even get a 25-50 lb bag of carrots, first quality, through a restaurant that you frequent if you explain your situation.  They may put a bag in their order for you.  Pay in advance, though, so make them secure that you will pick it up.


----------



## Ariel301

freemotion said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I have heard that kids are a good indication of a doe's health, and if that's the case, there is nothing wrong with her. They gotta be 20 lb by now...
> 
> 
> 
> True up to a point....the babies of any species will be favored over the mother during gestation, and the mother will end up depleted, sometimes seriously, in favor of healthy babies.  But there can still be an invisible (to most people) impact of the deficiency during gestation.  For example, in humans, crooked, crowed teeth are not in one's dna.  They are a result of nutritional deficiency in the mother during pregnancy, and are epidemic today because of our ridiculous lack of honest nutrition education and lack of nutrients in monocropped and gmo foods.
> 
> I still suggest that you find a source of fresh produce to supplement her with....local grocery or restaurant that may toss older produce or kitchen waste, but particularly root veggies like carrots, beets, rutabagas, turnips.  Along with all the other things you are doing.  You won't have to do this forever, but it will give her a HUGE boost.  You could even get a 25-50 lb bag of carrots, first quality, through a restaurant that you frequent if you explain your situation.  They may put a bag in their order for you.  Pay in advance, though, so make them secure that you will pick it up.
Click to expand...

I just found a source of restaurant veggies and I'm going to try this with Gracee. We just found out that my husband's friend's wife works at a salad bar type restaurant, and she is going to start getting us their food scraps to feed to the animals. Gracee is looking awful right now, and she's limping in both back legs now instead of just the one she has always had problems with. :/ I put her in a pen where she doesn't have to compete with anyone for anything. She is stumbling when she tries to jump on the milk stand and her milk production is dropping some. Poor girl, I'm afraid she's about at the end.  How much of the veggies would you recommend for a full size goat? Would it be ok to start her gradually and get to where she can just eat whatever she wants? I'm doing that now with alfalfa pellets and grain, she's got it in front of her at all times to eat as much as she wants.


----------



## freemotion

If she has any fresh food available right now, you can start with more, but I start with about a cup twice a day and go up from there.  With her, I think I'd feed a cupful up to 4-5 times if you can space it out.  I increase it a little at a time for a few days, maybe get up to two cups per feeding over 3-4 days, then up to 3 cups after a week or so.  Then level off a bit to watch her poo.  Sometimes it takes a couple of days to show up in the poo.  Back off a bit at the first sign of clumpiness.  Add probios if you can during the first few days or first couple of weeks to help.  A little in each feeding, not necessarily a "full dose."  

A spoonful of live, homemade sauerkraut will do, too.  It is cheap and easy to make and for this purpose is ready in three days.  It gets better over a few weeks for people, the taste improves, but goats aren't so fussy!  To emphasize how easy it is to digest, even a shred of cabbage in a salad will make me very, very sick.  I can eat bowls of my homemade sauerkraut.  I don't, cuz I don't really like it, but I could!  I use it as a digestive aid and source of natural vitamin C for me.  Gets rid of GERD, too, in many people as long as the diet is cleaned up, too.

Lots of instructions over on the sister site, www.sufficientself.com.


----------



## Ariel301

Interesting about the sauerkraut and GERD, wonder if it will work for me. I've got to take heartburn medicine every day and I still get heartburn a couple of days a week despite the medicine and good diet...I'll have to give it a try, even though I don't like sauerkraut.


----------



## freemotion

For people and GERD, you need to eliminate white flour and sugary stuff (esp liquids) and decrease starches, including starchy veggies.  Increase high fiber veggies.  Eat your meat, dairy, and eggs as usual.  Unless there is some type of injury to the valves, you can see big results in as little as a week.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I know this week won't be good for Jenny....(goats shaved to the skin don't tend to like cold wet weather it seems....I do have a hoodie on her though!)however, I've taken to milking her in the mornings without separating the kids and feeding her a half a scoop of calf manna and what she will eat of the alfalfa pellets, just to make sure she actually eats what she needs to.

I'm still mixing a bucket for her every morning and letting her eat off of it throughout the day, but I'm going to try to separate it out so she gets fed twice a day. This morning's bucket was a single scoop of pellets, a half a scoop calf manna, half scoop beet pulp and a quarter scoop dairy ration, plus what she got on the stand. Soon as it warms up, I'm hoping to see at least some improvement, so maybe I don't have to dry her off this year.


----------



## Ariel301

freemotion said:
			
		

> For people and GERD, you need to eliminate white flour and sugary stuff (esp liquids) and decrease starches, including starchy veggies.  Increase high fiber veggies.  Eat your meat, dairy, and eggs as usual.  Unless there is some type of injury to the valves, you can see big results in as little as a week.


We're already going that route. No white flour (we buy organic whole wheat and grind our own flour) and we avoid white sugar, we use honey mostly. I eat a lot of dairy and eggs, but we don't eat much meat, maybe once a week or so, we mostly have veggie meals. I'm also doing organic raw cold-pressed coconut oil, and WOW does it give me energy!  I've got a birth defect in the top of my stomach that makes the acid come back up, I have found that the things that really bother me are some sodas (coke and pepsi, I can have a little of any other but those two even a sip gives me heartburn) and eating too much at once. I can eat spicy foods no problem. I've got a whole mess of problems that are starting to clear up finally after two years of eating extremely healthy. 

On the goat side of things, Gracee is thinking she is getting super spoiled in her own little house eating tons of grain and alfalfa pellets. She's just laying around with a full stomach and a big goaty grin.


----------



## Our7Wonders

Ariel - the saurkraut can help, and any raw fermented foods - like raw apple cider vinegar.  It can help to sip a little in warm water before a meal.  If you can't stand the taste a little honey can make it easier to get down.  Use it for making salad dressings - and if you're not using it already it can be great for the goaties too.

Do you make kefir?  Super beneficial for the tummy!


----------



## Ariel301

I make yogurt, and as soon as I scrape together the money I'm ordering some kefir grains to start that too. I spent so long not liking milk, before getting goats I could not drink milk, so my body is so programmed to not want milk that even though I KNOW I like goat milk, it's hard to convince myself to pour a glass of it very often.  I do drink it in tea pretty much daily though.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Think there's any difference at all?


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

It's hard to tell with the brightness washing out the area along her spine and vertebrae, but it does look like they're starting to smooth out just a little bit.  She still has a ways to go before she's in (what I would consider) ideal condition for a dairy animal, but great job and keep it up!


----------



## freemotion

If you look at the pics in post #30, there is a definite difference!  Great job, keep it up, keep walking the food to her and see if you can get her to eat even more.......She has a ways to go, but there is a difference.  Notice the clear outlines of the transverse processes....the spine bumps on the sides, not the ones on the top.....and you can't really see them as clearly in the latest photo.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Think I'll be able to condition her without having to dry her off? (I did throw a full bale of alfalfa out there yesterday, and she's still nibbling on it)


----------



## freemotion

Is the bale in a rack?  She'll not eat it once she has stepped on it or the breeze blows on it the wrong way!  Goats are so fussy.

As for drying her off....well.....maybe you could compromise for the next couple weeks and not quite milk her out, let her give less than peak.  Decide on an amount and stick to it.  Let her keep a pint or so and she will start to give a bit less.  You can still have some milk, and she can save some body reserves to build herself back up.

Then re-evaluate her progress with another picture taken from the same angle and in similar light so you (we) can see how she is doing.  Give it at least two or three weeks, though.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

freemotion said:
			
		

> Is the bale in a rack?  She'll not eat it once she has stepped on it or the breeze blows on it the wrong way!  Goats are so fussy.
> 
> As for drying her off....well.....maybe you could compromise for the next couple weeks and not quite milk her out, let her give less than peak.  Decide on an amount and stick to it.  Let her keep a pint or so and she will start to give a bit less.  You can still have some milk, and she can save some body reserves to build herself back up.
> 
> Then re-evaluate her progress with another picture taken from the same angle and in similar light so you (we) can see how she is doing.  Give it at least two or three weeks, though.


They are not only fussy, but if her babies decide it looks like just one more toy for baby goats they're going to tromp all kinds of who-knows-what on it.

I agree with Free, if you don't dry her off I'd at least not push her production.  Milking a gallon a day makes huge demands on the body and without reserves it's not healthy for her to sustain that.  Letting her produce enough to wean the kids on her own and no more will at least alleviate some of the pressure on her while meeting your need not to supplement the kids.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I'm still only milking the excess in the morning, I'm not pulling kids or anything. I wouldn't even be doing that except if I don't, she fills so much on the one side it's not even funny. I accidentally let it go until noon yesterday and she was so tight every time she moved milk squirted. She's milking a little over a quart a day from just the one side, so I don't *think* it's putting much of a strain on her.

The hay's also in a hay net, so if she manages to mess that up, well then, good for her. She's not that picky anyways, she pigs out on what she knocks on the ground...


----------



## freemotion

Wow, a goat who eats off the ground?  If I put my gals on the phone, do you think you could get your gal to talk to them?


----------



## TheMixedBag

It's only with alfalfa. If anything else falls on the ground, she pees and craps on it just for good measure


----------



## St0rmyM00n

If any of you have been following my first time mommy thread you know I have a goat that is preggers , as of today we have had to run around picking up dog food and cat food on the ground. She never use to mess with the cats or dogs food before till today.

She has her grains , her alfalfa and she is still acting hungry.
Yesterday she stole my peanut butter crackers out of my pocket and ate 2 out of the pack before I could get to her.

Her feed is free choice and her alfalfa is also.......

Is there anything else I should give her? Or should I just keep giving her what she gets?


----------



## AlaskanShepherdess

Hmmm the things she is going after makes me wonder if she is getting enough protein?


----------



## St0rmyM00n

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> Hmmm the things she is going after makes me wonder if she is getting enough protein?


What can I do to add more protein ?


----------



## AlaskanShepherdess

That question is best answered by someone more experienced then I, just looking at what she was eating made me think that. But from an experienced opinion I don't know.


----------



## freemotion

I am a big fan of slightly sprouted barley if you can get whole barley.  Oats would be a second choice, or any of the small grains.  The protein skyrockets just as the sprout is emerging from the seed.  It is how I feed my poultry and goats without using any soy.  It takes very little to make a difference.

I can tell you several stories about my learning process with this, but the one that matches your goat the most was when Ginger was a baby, the person who sold her to me took her right from her mama at 5 weeks and handed her over to me, telling me that I could get her on the bottle quite easily.  NOT!  Maybe someone more experienced could, but not me, not then.  Never did get her to take the bottle.  She would go out to the pasture by herself as a little tiny thing and she baa'd constantly, even while taking mouthfuls of grass.  It was non-stop and it was not baa, it was maaa and then blaaaah (too cute but it broke my heart.  I knew she desperately needed something....milk!)  I finally offered her a couple of tablespoons of the sprouted barley.

The crying and the solo trips to the pasture stopped immediately.  Just a tiny bit of the barley twice a day made a huge difference.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

freemotion said:
			
		

> I am a big fan of slightly sprouted barley if you can get whole barley.  Oats would be a second choice, or any of the small grains.  The protein skyrockets just as the sprout is emerging from the seed.  It is how I feed my poultry and goats without using any soy.  It takes very little to make a difference.
> 
> I can tell you several stories about my learning process with this, but the one that matches your goat the most was when Ginger was a baby, the person who sold her to me took her right from her mama at 5 weeks and handed her over to me, telling me that I could get her on the bottle quite easily.  NOT!  Maybe someone more experienced could, but not me, not then.  Never did get her to take the bottle.  She would go out to the pasture by herself as a little tiny thing and she baa'd constantly, even while taking mouthfuls of grass.  It was non-stop and it was not baa, it was maaa and then blaaaah (too cute but it broke my heart.  I knew she desperately needed something....milk!)  I finally offered her a couple of tablespoons of the sprouted barley.
> 
> The crying and the solo trips to the pasture stopped immediately.  Just a tiny bit of the barley twice a day made a huge difference.


I can get either one I am sure I will have to wait till tomorrow though.
She is banging her head on the alfalfa right now she is really tearing into it. 

I felt like something must be missing from her diet but wasn't sure what. She does free range of course she feeds all day on brush and other things but maybe it isn't what she wants like how humans crave certain things, of course I am just guessing here but not certain goats crave while pregnant like humans do.


----------



## freemotion

It does take protein to build babies....and to make milk....and for youngsters to grow.  So it wouldn't be surprising if she needed a boost, more than she can get from nature.  Many modern goats were not bred to live off pasture/browse along, they were bred for high production so need a boost.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a big fan of slightly sprouted barley if you can get whole barley.  Oats would be a second choice, or any of the small grains.  The protein skyrockets just as the sprout is emerging from the seed.  It is how I feed my poultry and goats without using any soy.  It takes very little to make a difference.
> 
> I can tell you several stories about my learning process with this, but the one that matches your goat the most was when Ginger was a baby, the person who sold her to me took her right from her mama at 5 weeks and handed her over to me, telling me that I could get her on the bottle quite easily.  NOT!  Maybe someone more experienced could, but not me, not then.  Never did get her to take the bottle.  She would go out to the pasture by herself as a little tiny thing and she baa'd constantly, even while taking mouthfuls of grass.  It was non-stop and it was not baa, it was maaa and then blaaaah (too cute but it broke my heart.  I knew she desperately needed something....milk!)  I finally offered her a couple of tablespoons of the sprouted barley.
> 
> The crying and the solo trips to the pasture stopped immediately.  Just a tiny bit of the barley twice a day made a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I can get either one I am sure I will have to wait till tomorrow though.
> She is banging her head on the alfalfa right now she is really tearing into it.
> 
> I felt like something must be missing from her diet but wasn't sure what. She does free range of course she feeds all day on brush and other things but maybe it isn't what she wants like how humans crave certain things, of course I am just guessing here but not certain goats crave while pregnant like humans do.
Click to expand...

what about a goat specific protein tub?   She might enjoy something like that.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am a big fan of slightly sprouted barley if you can get whole barley.  Oats would be a second choice, or any of the small grains.  The protein skyrockets just as the sprout is emerging from the seed.  It is how I feed my poultry and goats without using any soy.  It takes very little to make a difference.
> 
> I can tell you several stories about my learning process with this, but the one that matches your goat the most was when Ginger was a baby, the person who sold her to me took her right from her mama at 5 weeks and handed her over to me, telling me that I could get her on the bottle quite easily.  NOT!  Maybe someone more experienced could, but not me, not then.  Never did get her to take the bottle.  She would go out to the pasture by herself as a little tiny thing and she baa'd constantly, even while taking mouthfuls of grass.  It was non-stop and it was not baa, it was maaa and then blaaaah (too cute but it broke my heart.  I knew she desperately needed something....milk!)  I finally offered her a couple of tablespoons of the sprouted barley.
> 
> The crying and the solo trips to the pasture stopped immediately.  Just a tiny bit of the barley twice a day made a huge difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I can get either one I am sure I will have to wait till tomorrow though.
> She is banging her head on the alfalfa right now she is really tearing into it.
> 
> I felt like something must be missing from her diet but wasn't sure what. She does free range of course she feeds all day on brush and other things but maybe it isn't what she wants like how humans crave certain things, of course I am just guessing here but not certain goats crave while pregnant like humans do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> what about a goat specific protein tub?   She might enjoy something like that.
Click to expand...

Im not sure what you mean, do you mean a special feeder only for her filled with protein?

I can do that if thats what you mean


----------



## TheMixedBag

Nix on the improvement. I didn't milk her this morning, Barclay made sure I didn't have to, but when she first gets up in the morning she just looks awful. I mean horrible.

Of course, by afternoon she looks a bit better, but still. She's going to the vet tomorrow, we're getting a fecal done and see if there isn't something else. She was wormed with Ivomec Plus a week and a half ago, and bolused about 3-4 days ago (thank you again so much!), but her breeder thinks she may have barberpole worms, something Ivomec won't get. Her temp is normal (100.4), for whatever that's worth.

I wish I had better pictures, but she wanted the hay, no ifs ands or buts.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Nix on the improvement. I didn't milk her this morning, Barclay made sure I didn't have to, but when she first gets up in the morning she just looks awful. I mean horrible.
> 
> Of course, by afternoon she looks a bit better, but still.


You're not going to see a difference in her actual condition in an afternoon.  You may see a difference in how her rumen is filled out (maybe hollow in the morning and a hay belly by evening) but her rumen is not an indication of condition.  A goat with a BCS of 1 could have a full, rounded looking hay belly and a goat with a BCS of 4 can be sunken in behind the ribs.  While you may see a difference in the appearance of the doe because of the fullness of the rumen, you're not going to see a notable difference in CONDITION in a single day.

It's important to keep in mind that you're fighting an uphill battle.  We've discussed earlier in this thread how difficult it is to put weight on a doe in early lactation.  Putting weight on any goat (lactating, dry, open, bred) takes consistency and TIME.  Goats lose weight quickly and tend to put it back on much more slowly.  It's made MUCH more difficult by the demands milk production puts on the doe.

It's great you're getting the fecal, it'll confirm or rule out parasites definitively.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Oh I know it's not an indication of her condition, she just *looks* better.

However, I did re-weigh her with the measuring tape method, and according to that, she's gained 10 lb. She was about 33 inches around, now she's between 34-35 inches (this is at the heart girth, not somewhere a hay belly could affect).


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Nix on the improvement. I didn't milk her this morning, Barclay made sure I didn't have to, but when she first gets up in the morning she just looks awful. I mean horrible.





			
				TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> I did re-weigh her with the measuring tape method, and according to that, she's gained 10 lb. She was about 33 inches around, now she's between 34-35 inches (this is at the heart girth, not somewhere a hay belly could affect).


Help me out MixedBag, I'm a little confused... Are you saying she looked awful/horrible this morning but THEN you weighed her and she had gained 10 lbs?  My does tend to look pretty hollow in the couple weeks after kidding, even if they're in good condition.  It would make sense that she's looking a little hollow right now even while she's fleshing out, but that wouldn't "nix the improvement."  It's over the spine and hips that's I'd really be using as a gauge.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can get either one I am sure I will have to wait till tomorrow though.
> She is banging her head on the alfalfa right now she is really tearing into it.
> 
> I felt like something must be missing from her diet but wasn't sure what. She does free range of course she feeds all day on brush and other things but maybe it isn't what she wants like how humans crave certain things, of course I am just guessing here but not certain goats crave while pregnant like humans do.
> 
> 
> 
> what about a goat specific protein tub?   She might enjoy something like that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Im not sure what you mean, do you mean a special feeder only for her filled with protein?
> 
> I can do that if thats what you mean
Click to expand...

No they actually make protein tubs you buy in the store to put out with livestock, the newest thing is goat protein tubs, they come in a black tub like container, you buy them at the feed store, Our Farm choice carries them.  
Like this:
http://www.feedinadrum.com/GOAT20N.html
http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats

This is a block:
http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats


I will be adding something like this to this summers feeding program when my does are only on pasture. 

I am still researching the brand that I will choose.  

Can't be a cattle tub, because of Urea used in them. Urea is toxic to goats.


----------



## TheMixedBag

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nix on the improvement. I didn't milk her this morning, Barclay made sure I didn't have to, but when she first gets up in the morning she just looks awful. I mean horrible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did re-weigh her with the measuring tape method, and according to that, she's gained 10 lb. She was about 33 inches around, now she's between 34-35 inches (this is at the heart girth, not somewhere a hay belly could affect).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Help me out MixedBag, I'm a little confused... Are you saying she looked awful/horrible this morning but THEN you weighed her and she had gained 10 lbs?  My does tend to look pretty hollow in the couple weeks after kidding, even if they're in good condition.  It would make sense that she's looking a little hollow right now even while she's fleshing out, but that wouldn't "nix the improvement."  It's over the spine and hips that's I'd really be using as a gauge.
Click to expand...

Now I'm confused

Yes, she did look pretty bad this morning, even the spinal processes were visible on the sides, though the dorsals are still even across the top. her ribs were clearly visible, and all 3 points of her hip were visible, which can still be seen in the photo.
I weighed her with the tape measure about noonish, where she measured out to 34+ inches.

However, even between the dorsal and transverse (i think, it's been forever since I took biomed classes) processes, and the hip points, I am starting to feel a bit of fat, rather than any kind of bone, which is still worrisome, but a *little* bit better than before. I picked up a 20% protein block, we'll see if that doesn't help some.

Talala at least is still in good condition and is finally back on feed.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

I haven't taken the time to read everything on the thread, but I would like to suggest worming her with: 

Equimax horse paste wormer, it is ivermectin and praziquantel. The praziquantel removes the head and segments of tapeworms, where wormers like safegaurd and valbazene only remove the segments.  I don't think this will magically solve the problem, but we saw some drastic improvements with a couple of our does last summer, that weren't putting weight back on after weaning. 

We used 3x the dose recommended for a horse.


----------



## helmstead

Here's an over-conditioned dairy buck  










And a 'just right' dairy buck (telling me how mean I am for bathing him)


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

I see the prettiest mug there in the background!!!  Awww, boy do I miss that face.


----------



## helmstead

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I see the prettiest mug there in the background!!!  Awww, boy do I miss that face.


And our whole family is SO glad to have her back!  She and Chippy are in wub, too, she's a happy girl.


----------



## TheMixedBag

It's still too early for her to be showing any kind of good condition, *however*, Jenny looked better this morning than she has in quite some time. Not as ribby, spiny or anything. Around the tail-head area, she's not as sunken in (though it looked really odd yesterday afternoon-the tailbone was level, with a depression right between it and the ligaments).

Now I have to go fix the fly problem and her skin shedding problem. White goats and Oklahoma summers are not a good mix.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> White goats and Oklahoma summers are not a good mix.


It's already Summer in Oklahoma??!  And I thought us Southerners were ahead of the game...


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

helmstead said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see the prettiest mug there in the background!!!  Awww, boy do I miss that face.
> 
> 
> 
> And our whole family is SO glad to have her back!  She and Chippy are in wub, too, she's a happy girl.
Click to expand...

That absolutely warms my heart, Kate!  She surely loves her boys.


----------



## TheMixedBag

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> White goats and Oklahoma summers are not a good mix.
> 
> 
> 
> It's already Summer in Oklahoma??!  And I thought us Southerners were ahead of the game...
Click to expand...

It might as well be! It was nearly 90 yesterday, same today, and tomorrow we get a bit of a break with 80, tops.


----------



## freemotion

Yowza.  I put my little doeling inside my coat this morning because once she came out from under the heat lamp, she started shivering.  Even with two coats on, each a double layer of fleece.  There was ice on the buckets, too.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Totally forgot to do this yesterday, but here's the update to Jenny's condition, (early in the morning this time!)

Personally, I see a difference, don't really know how much of one, considering she's only 4 weeks into lactation and once again supporting 3 kids, ranging between 20-30lb (sadly, it's the older twin who's 30lb). I am not milking her anymore at all, Barclay is making quite sure of that, so I guess I don't have to war with him over the bottle anymore. Weaning at 6/7 weeks doesn't sound that bad anyways.

But, I digress-this is her condition from yesterday, and she has been off alfalfa hay for almost a full week. I'm picking up some from the auction Saturday, and then we shouldn't run out for some time. I upped the amount of pellets they're getting to make up for it, so now it's 4 scoops of pellets for 5 goats.

Also, an update-Talala is maintaining her condition nicely, and slowly rebuilding her milk supply (I believe the calf manna is helping greatly with this). I am only milking her once a day, I know I should be twice a day, but oftentimes she's being nursed on by Barclay as well, or I'm asleep and don't wake up until holy-crap-i-have-10-minutes-to-be-to-work.


----------



## cmjust0

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> The flip side of that, does that are overconditioned and have deposited large amounts of fat internally can be an equally disastrous situation.


Can be is the key to the whole thing there..  You *can* have a doe that's just gigantic huge fat and bred, and so long as you feed her adequately to prevent her from going to fat stores to make energy (which leads to ketosis) you should be fine.

I had this one gigantic fat doe I slimmed down throughout early pregnancy..  When she started a serious condition burn toward late pregnancy, I fed her enough to stem the condition loss..  When she kidded, she was in really good shape.  

Then, of course, she lost more condition through lactation so I had to feed...and feed...and feed...  Wished I'd kept more of that condition on her through pregnancy, frankly, but still..

The point is that having a fat bred doe doesn't necessarily mean you're *going* to have problems..  You increase the risk, but ketosis -- in my mind, anyway -- can be more accurately correlated to a lack of nutrition late than to a wealth of waistline early.



> Really, it seems to me that the goal shouldn't so much be going into kidding in good condition, it should be going into late GESTATION in good condition.


Agreed..  You've got about three and a half to four months to play with her diet before crunchtime.



> when do you typically see does having a harder time maintaining the ideal and how do you handle it?


Depends on the doe, and I handle it by keeping an eye on them and laying on feed as necessary.



> What types of feed do those extra calories come from?


Feed = grains = carbs.  I figure carbs are carbs..  If you were on Atkins and thought "I wonder if I can eat some of that pelleted feed?" the answer is NO, which I figure is about all I need to know..  

I also like to add good ol' fat during that time, so the BOSS usage gets a little heavier..



> When are you most concerned with nutritional disorders (ketosis, hypocalcemia, etc.) and how do you adjust your feeding to handle that?


Late gestation, and I feed more to stem an obvious or rapid condition burn.  I know that's simplistic, but it's worked so far.

That's not to say I haven't had a few 'walking skeletons' over time, though...I have...lactation's hard on a dairy goat, especially one that's dam-raising kids.  

I'll say this, too -- young goats recover condition more quickly than those who have a few kiddings behind them!  You may be able to get away with burning a first or second freshener from both ends and get her back in a reasonable amount of time, but beyond that, it becomes a bit of an uphill battle..  So, watch your older does closely..


----------



## Roll farms

Mixed Bag, forgive me for this, but I can't not mention this, in case it is part of the problem.

The Nub doe looks like she's lost a bit of weight since you posted her 1st pic.

Goats burn calories to stay warm.

IMHO, if you're still needing to wear jeans and long sleeves over another shirt, it's quite possible it's not warm enough for them to be slick shaved, and part of the reason they're not gaining any condition might be b/c what they are taking in is going to not only produce milk, but also to keep warm.

I don't trim *anyone* until I'm sure night time temps won't go below 60 degrees.

I don't slick shave 2/3 of my herd, even when the heat index says it's over 100 degrees.  They do fine.  You might consider letting their coats grow back out...see if they gain some condition back.

JMHO.  I mean no offense, just throwing it out there in case you hadn't thought of it.


----------



## freemotion

I second Rolls post.  I'd be putting a sweater on the doe whenever I needed long sleeves.  She is out there in a bikini, basically.  I know it has been and will be very hot there in OK and she will appreciate the clip, but on the cooler days/nights, a modified sweatshirt will be useful for this one.  I don't clip my goats, but I worked with horses professionally for many years and I never clipped without providing blankets at night or whenever I needed long sleeves.  It is even more important for an animal without the bulk of a horse.  My triplets have coats on tonight again, and the smallest one had one on all day as she gets chilled more easily than her larger siblings.  I posted a tutorial on how I made them somewhere, if you'd like I can find it for you.

I also see her just as thin again.....all those transverse processes are clearly outlined, no topline muscling at all.  In a heavily lactating doe, even a week can make such a huge difference.

You are doing a lot of great things for her, so continue doing so.  Being off the alfalfa hay for a week (trust me, I know how hard it is to find good hay this time of year....pretty impossible here!) so she lost a bit of ground.  Not milking her at all is a wise choice.  You might consider still separating her twice a day for a few minutes so she can eat her grain/concentrates without competition from the other goats, at least for a while.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I didn't need them, it was part of my work uniform. Stupid shirt goes halfway up me whenever I have to lift something, so I need an undershirt, and by the time I get home, I really don't have the will to take anything off.... She hasn't lost any weight, I can promise you that. Her hiney is as jiggly as ever, though her white butt and the white siding really doesn't do well for making her look good...if she has lost weight, it's *probably* not the temps (will have to blanket this weekend, but I'm buying special ones she can't throw off and hide on me), but more her racing the kids at breakneck speed 10 hours out of the day.

Jenny's also a doe I don't have to separate (and if I do, she won't eat. She nibbles, picks it up and flings it at me.). I'm really quite honestly surprised, Talala's been the first doe she hasn't fought with over everything, and aside from dislocating her shoulder once for bugging her, they've gotten along great. Talala eats with the kids, and Jenny and Barclay get the trough. The only thing that concerns me a bit is Talala will not graze. I catch her nibbling here and there, and then sniffing everything else. It might come from the fact that she was all but kept on a dry lot before, but I'm hoping she starts to soon, ragweed will be coming in, and Jenny and her kids won't be able to eat it down by themselves...

That all being said, our first show is in May, which is the big reason they're shaved. I'm HORRID at shaving white goats, and the only way I'll be able to get it right is to shave her down early, and then pick off the long spots right before the show. Talala, I don't know what I'll do with her, I can still see where the hair is reddish from her copper deficiency (both were bolused).


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> That all being said, our first show is in May, which is the big reason they're shaved. I'm HORRID at shaving white goats, and the only way I'll be able to get it right is to shave her down early, and then pick off the long spots right before the show.


Try reversing a longer blade.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I'll figure it out soon, she needs to be clipped again, she's getting hairy

At any rate, I bought nice blankets w/necks on them, and while there's an extra foot or so of room back there, they should work great for nights. I also *finally* managed to get fly spray, so maybe now she won't be a walking fly trap. She loved that, hated the sunblock.

They did also get a fresh bale (not great...more stemmy than leafy, but still...guaranteed 16% protein) to last them until the auction Saturday, so maybe they'll be looking better by then.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

I don't own any white goats, but I like reversing a #5 on my black goats because you don't end up seeing so much skin.  It's still very short and slick- sorta like a #10 blade (with the grain) grown out for a couple days.  Except it's even.  If I did have a white goat it's what I'd be inclined to do.


----------



## helmstead

I don't find it at all difficult to clip my white goats.  I think you're using too short of a blade...like maybe a #10 against the grain?

This thread is so frustrating.  We recommend drying her off, and you use her to feed three babies instead...and you keep posting how she suddenly looks better after a few days or should look better IN a few days - and it just doesn't work like that.

I hope you can dry her off soon.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> They did also get a fresh bale (not great...more stemmy than leafy, but still...guaranteed 16% protein) to last them until the auction Saturday, so maybe they'll be looking better by then.





			
				helmstead said:
			
		

> ...and you keep posting how she suddenly looks better after a few days or should look better IN a few days - and it just doesn't work like that.


I also think it's extremely important not to underestimate the amount of time and consistency (and the amount and cost of feed) required to put condition on a lactating doe.  It doesn't happen in a week.  It happens with week after week of consistent, proper nutrition.  Even then it's not an easy task when they are very thin.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Doesn't matter anyways. She's already drying herself off, and when she does, that's it. I think it's obvious by now she can't handle it, so she's done.

Can't sell her, I guess I can just keep her as a pasture pet. She might be able to hold condition with that, but probably not.


----------



## helmstead

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter anyways. She's already drying herself off, and when she does, that's it. I think it's obvious by now she can't handle it, so she's done.
> 
> Can't sell her, I guess I can just keep her as a pasture pet. She might be able to hold condition with that, but probably not.


I don't think any of us would recommend you throw your hands up and call her a cull...yet.

I bought a bred doe once who was very skinny.  Unacceptably so.  She made it through gestation, kidded a tish early, and I left one kid of her triplets on her (this was before I bottle raised as a rule).  Weaned the one kid 8 weeks later and left her open a LONG time.  It took that doe a solid year to recover...but now she is actually overconditioned, holds her condition well through pregnancy and lactation and is nearly impossible to dry off.  

It took that solid year to get her 'up', but once she was 'up', she was 'fixed'.

Same with another doe I bought - she was truly emaciated and neglected and today, same story - holds really too much condition through pregnancy and lactation...

It just takes that time and investment to get them there, but once they're there, they usually stay there.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I highly doubt that's going to happen with her-she did it last year, she's doing it this year, and I really doubt she'll get up to condition even once she's dry. It's not in her genetics to do it.


----------



## helmstead

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> It's not in her genetics to do it.


Uh huh...well, genetically I should weigh somewhere around 350 lbs, but I don't because I work at it...so...genetics shouldn't be your reason to not leave her open and feed her up and see what happens.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

helmstead said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not in her genetics to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> genetics shouldn't be your reason to not leave her open and feed her up and see what happens.
Click to expand...

I agree.  I wouldn't write off her condition to solely being genetic without a proper chance.  I don't think you can blame genetics on chronic under conditioning unless you're trying to maintain a herd of easy keepers and feed them like easy keepers.  And Kate may be right, we've talked a lot in this thread about the value of STARTING lactation in the right condition and maintaining it from there.  That's a whole different ball game than starting lactation way UNDER conditioned and trying to fix it while they're producing.  I think everyone can agree on that.  You have a nice looking doe, MixedBag.  Maybe when she's asked to perform under ideal conditions her body will respond in a closer to ideal way.  And it'll be a heck of a lot easier on your wallet to condition her when she's open and dry and work from there.


----------



## TheMixedBag

Even when she was dry, she didn't gain, and the only thing that's changed in feeding is I added alfalfa this winter, and the calf manna. I was even keeping her on 20% range cubes (which she *really* liked, despite their size), so I do have doubts as to her gaining any kind of real condition. Even Talala is a hard keeper and she's keeping the weight on without problems.


----------



## helmstead

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> I do have doubts as to her gaining any kind of real condition.


Well, as long as you're convinced it's the goat's issue and not a problem with the feeding program...so do I.  :/


----------



## TheMixedBag

Well, I don't know how many times I've asked (and how many places) as to what I could change feed-wise, and I almost never get an answer, and the few I've gotten, I've followed, and she still can't even begin to maintain. I really don't know what else to think, I'm pretty sure goat reverse liposuctions don't exist, so I don't see a whole lot of other options.


----------



## freemotion

Starting on page 4 of this thread there are many, many suggestions for feeding your doe.  Have you implemented them all?  Not yet.  Don't give up so quickly.  There is a lot you can do.  Re-read it.  There was some time that you resisted the idea that she was even thin.  So go back to page 4 and re-read, there may be some suggestions that you forgot about.  It is easy to do when you are overwhelmed.  Ask me how I know. 

ETA:  If reverse liposuction were available, I'd look very different!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Well, I don't know how many times I've asked (and how many places) as to what I could change feed-wise, and I almost never get an answer, and the few I've gotten, I've followed, and she still can't even begin to maintain. I really don't know what else to think


It's only been 5 weeks since I started this thread.  With her condition being what it is and the fact that she's a high-production doe in early lactation this was NEVER a problem that was completely solvable in 5 weeks!  The best that you can hope for is slow, *consistent* improvement with *consistent* nutrition.


----------



## TheMixedBag

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I don't know how many times I've asked (and how many places) as to what I could change feed-wise, and I almost never get an answer, and the few I've gotten, I've followed, and she still can't even begin to maintain. I really don't know what else to think
> 
> 
> 
> It's only been 5 weeks since I started this thread.  With her condition being what it is and the fact that she's a high-production doe in early lactation this was NEVER a problem that was completely solvable in 5 weeks!  The best that you can hope for is slow, *consistent* improvement with *consistent* nutrition.
Click to expand...

I never said improvement. I said she never even began to maintain, something that she should have been able to do at the very least, considering she wasn't being milked much or producing all that much.


----------



## helmstead

Getting back to the original topic 

I finally got my 4 year old son to help me get a photo of one of my milking does this morning.

She is the thinnest doe of the 5 I'm milking right now.  She weighs right at 60 lbs, and this is before her morning hay - so she's even showing a little more down than usual.  She is still in IDEAL condition.  She is 4 weeks fresh milking 3 lbs a day.  She gets, oh, about 1/4 scoop (of an average horse feed scoop) on the stanchion of goat feed along with my 'lactation mix' in her pen - they're getting 2 full scoops between 3 nubians and 5 Nigerians twice a day.  And are fed alfalfa/clover/orchard hay.

**next time I'm in the barn I will weigh out a 'scoop' and let y'all know how many lbs**


----------



## St0rmyM00n

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what about a goat specific protein tub?   She might enjoy something like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure what you mean, do you mean a special feeder only for her filled with protein?
> 
> I can do that if thats what you mean
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No they actually make protein tubs you buy in the store to put out with livestock, the newest thing is goat protein tubs, they come in a black tub like container, you buy them at the feed store, Our Farm choice carries them.
> Like this:
> http://www.feedinadrum.com/GOAT20N.html
> http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats
> 
> This is a block:
> http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats
> 
> 
> I will be adding something like this to this summers feeding program when my does are only on pasture.
> 
> I am still researching the brand that I will choose.
> 
> Can't be a cattle tub, because of Urea used in them. Urea is toxic to goats.
Click to expand...

I realize what your saying now, your talking about goat minerals.
We only have 2 goats if I had a whole herd I would get the tub too, I get the loose mineral for goats in a 25 lb bag and it is out where they can get it when ever they please, we refresh it daily I only put a small amount in a bowl that hangs on the side of their fence or inside their housing area.


----------



## PattySh

I didn't know urea was poisonous for goats, never had it  an ingredient in anything fed to my goats. Thanks for that info as I wondered why they didn't recommend a uterine bolus for goats after difficult birth. Uterine boluses main ingredient is urea. Makes sense now.


----------



## TheMixedBag

If anyone cares, I'm posting updates on Jenny here:
http://bodowaygoats.blogspot.com/

I'm not posting here anymore. Just not worth it.


----------



## freemotion

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> If anyone cares, I'm posting updates on Jenny here:
> http://bodowaygoats.blogspot.com/
> 
> I'm not posting here anymore. Just not worth it.


That is sad.  So many here were truly trying to help you with your goat.  I'm very sorry you didn't see that.  I hope that with showing, you develop your eye....I worked with horses for decades and it does take time to develop an eye for what is thin, what is racing fit, what is working fit, and what is show ring fit.  And what is fat.  

Wishing you lots of success in your journey with goats.  They truly are wonderful.


----------



## TheMixedBag

I get that some people were trying to help, but it's how they were trying to help that I can't do. I'm not going to be able to do the things everyone wants me to do, and getting irritated because I don't do everything someone suggests doesn't help, so I'm just done here. I'm always going to be told she's thin and that my ideal weight for a goat is too thin, so I guess now is the time to deal with it and move on.
(no I'm not saying she's in good condition, that's obvious)


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

freemotion said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone cares, I'm posting updates on Jenny here:
> http://bodowaygoats.blogspot.com/
> 
> I'm not posting here anymore. Just not worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> So many here were truly trying to help you with your goat.  I'm very sorry you didn't see that.  I hope that with showing, you develop your eye....
> 
> Wishing you lots of success in your journey with goats.  They truly are wonderful.
Click to expand...

x2


----------



## 20kidsonhill

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure what you mean, do you mean a special feeder only for her filled with protein?
> 
> I can do that if thats what you mean
> 
> 
> 
> No they actually make protein tubs you buy in the store to put out with livestock, the newest thing is goat protein tubs, they come in a black tub like container, you buy them at the feed store, Our Farm choice carries them.
> Like this:
> http://www.feedinadrum.com/GOAT20N.html
> http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats
> 
> This is a block:
> http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats
> 
> 
> I will be adding something like this to this summers feeding program when my does are only on pasture.
> 
> I am still researching the brand that I will choose.
> 
> Can't be a cattle tub, because of Urea used in them. Urea is toxic to goats.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I realize what your saying now, your talking about goat minerals.
> We only have 2 goats if I had a whole herd I would get the tub too, I get the loose mineral for goats in a 25 lb bag and it is out where they can get it when ever they please, we refresh it daily I only put a small amount in a bowl that hangs on the side of their fence or inside their housing area.
Click to expand...

Nope it isn't just goat minerals, it is a PROTEIN tub to supplement pasture. may or may not have minerals in it, depending on which one you buy. loose minerals don't have any protein in them. 

Cattle use protein tubs all the time, but goats can't have cattle protein tubs because most of them, or all of them contain urea, and goats can NOT have urea. But now some feed companies are producing goat protein tubs and they are becoming very popular in our area.


----------



## PJisaMom

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No they actually make protein tubs you buy in the store to put out with livestock, the newest thing is goat protein tubs, they come in a black tub like container, you buy them at the feed store, Our Farm choice carries them.
> Like this:
> http://www.feedinadrum.com/GOAT20N.html
> http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats
> 
> This is a block:
> http://www.hubbardfeeds.com/specialty/ProdInfo/Easylix16GoatBlock.aspx?menu=Goats
> 
> 
> I will be adding something like this to this summers feeding program when my does are only on pasture.
> 
> I am still researching the brand that I will choose.
> 
> Can't be a cattle tub, because of Urea used in them. Urea is toxic to goats.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize what your saying now, your talking about goat minerals.
> We only have 2 goats if I had a whole herd I would get the tub too, I get the loose mineral for goats in a 25 lb bag and it is out where they can get it when ever they please, we refresh it daily I only put a small amount in a bowl that hangs on the side of their fence or inside their housing area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nope it isn't just goat minerals, it is a PROTEIN tub to supplement pasture. may or may not have minerals in it, depending on which one you buy. loose minerals don't have any protein in them.
> 
> Cattle use protein tubs all the time, but goats can't have cattle protein tubs because most of them, or all of them contain urea, and goats can NOT have urea. But now some feed companies are producing goat protein tubs and they are becoming very popular in our area.
Click to expand...

I saw the EnergiLass Goat tubs from Kent at our Farm and Home store today... 

EnergiLass Goat 

http://www.kentfeeds.com/products/sheepgoat/supp/sg-Supp.php

EnergiLass Goat is a specially processed and cured molasses-based supplement formulated for goats. It is available in a 331⁄3 lb. pail.

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein, min	18.0%
This includes not more than 1.8% equivalent crude protein from non-protein nitrogen. (NPN from Ammonium Chloride)

Crude Fat, min	5.0%
Crude Fiber, max 2.0%
Calcium (Ca), min 1.4%  (In my mineral :  13-15%)
Calcium (Ca), max 1.9%
Phosphorus (P), min	0.6%  (mine: min 8%)
Magnesium (Mg), min 0.5%  (mine; min 2%)
Potassium (K), min 3.0% (mine: min 1%)
Copper (Cu), min 55 ppm (mine: 2500 ppm)
Copper (Cu), min 65 ppm
Manganese (Mn), min 1200 ppm
Selenium (Se), min 4.0 ppm (Mine: min 26ppm)
Zinc (Zn), min	1200 ppm (mine: min 5000ppm)
Vitamin A, min	 100,000 IU/lb (mine: same)
Vitamin D3, min 10,000 IU/lb (mine: same)
Vitamin E, min	400 IU/lb (mine: min 100 IU/lb)

Compared to the nutritional analysis from my free choice minerals (Cargill Right Now Onyx), I am seeing better numbers from the mineral.  

Would it make them eat less of the mineral if they were offered the tub in conjunction with the mineral... and I would think the goaties would love the molasses based tub, but consume less of what they need that way.... ?

Thinking out loud!


----------



## helmstead

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't tubbed minerals, etc...compressed??

We've already established that goats physically cannot get what they need from a block.  (and I don't think any animal REALLY can lick THAT much)  Loose minerals are superior because they're easy for an animal to consume.

So, between the nutritional info PJisaMom just posted, and the idea that compressed minerals are best used as stepping stones - I think I would automatically stick with loose minerals.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

helmstead said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't tubbed minerals, etc...compressed??
> 
> We've already established that goats physically cannot get what they need from a block.  (and I don't think any animal REALLY can lick THAT much)  Loose minerals are superior because they're easy for an animal to consume.
> 
> So, between the nutritional info PJisaMom just posted, and the idea that compressed minerals are best used as stepping stones - I think I would automatically stick with loose minerals.


These tubs are all the rage around by us.  All the feed stores are now carrying them and I have heard really good things about them for goats and sheep on pasture. Because of our mountains we have alot of livestock just on pasture.

They don't lick on them, it is more like they bite on them, not for minerals so much as increased protein with the added benifits of a few minerals, you would still have to have out loose minerals.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I realize what your saying now, your talking about goat minerals.
> We only have 2 goats if I had a whole herd I would get the tub too, I get the loose mineral for goats in a 25 lb bag and it is out where they can get it when ever they please, we refresh it daily I only put a small amount in a bowl that hangs on the side of their fence or inside their housing area.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope it isn't just goat minerals, it is a PROTEIN tub to supplement pasture. may or may not have minerals in it, depending on which one you buy. loose minerals don't have any protein in them.
> 
> Cattle use protein tubs all the time, but goats can't have cattle protein tubs because most of them, or all of them contain urea, and goats can NOT have urea. But now some feed companies are producing goat protein tubs and they are becoming very popular in our area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw the EnergiLass Goat tubs from Kent at our Farm and Home store today...
> 
> EnergiLass Goat
> 
> http://www.kentfeeds.com/products/sheepgoat/supp/sg-Supp.php
> 
> EnergiLass Goat is a specially processed and cured molasses-based supplement formulated for goats. It is available in a 331⁄3 lb. pail.
> 
> Guaranteed Analysis
> Crude Protein, min	18.0%
> This includes not more than 1.8% equivalent crude protein from non-protein nitrogen. (NPN from Ammonium Chloride)
> 
> Crude Fat, min	5.0%
> Crude Fiber, max 2.0%
> Calcium (Ca), min 1.4%  (In my mineral :  13-15%)
> Calcium (Ca), max 1.9%
> Phosphorus (P), min	0.6%  (mine: min 8%)
> Magnesium (Mg), min 0.5%  (mine; min 2%)
> Potassium (K), min 3.0% (mine: min 1%)
> Copper (Cu), min 55 ppm (mine: 2500 ppm)
> Copper (Cu), min 65 ppm
> Manganese (Mn), min 1200 ppm
> Selenium (Se), min 4.0 ppm (Mine: min 26ppm)
> Zinc (Zn), min	1200 ppm (mine: min 5000ppm)
> Vitamin A, min	 100,000 IU/lb (mine: same)
> Vitamin D3, min 10,000 IU/lb (mine: same)
> Vitamin E, min	400 IU/lb (mine: min 100 IU/lb)
> 
> Compared to the nutritional analysis from my free choice minerals (Cargill Right Now Onyx), I am seeing better numbers from the mineral.
> 
> Would it make them eat less of the mineral if they were offered the tub in conjunction with the mineral... and I would think the goaties would love the molasses based tub, but consume less of what they need that way.... ?
> 
> Thinking out loud!
Click to expand...

I am looking for the salt in the tub you have, salt is what regulates mineral intake, did you over look writting it down, or is there no salt?

Am I reading that correct, does it say it contains ammonia Chloride?

does it list any ferrous oxide or iron oxide on the label. as ingredience?

And is the copper a copper oxide or copper sulfate.?

Sulfates are better than oxides, better absorption. 



I was thinking of trying the cargill Onyx, I don't think it would slow down the consumption of the mineral too much, especially if their is no salt in the tub.


----------



## Melissa'sDreamFarm

If I leave my loose goat minerals out "free choice" they eat it like candy. So just how much does one goat need to consume in a day. I'm afraid to fill it regularly, but if I know about how much they should consume in a day, I can average it out. I've been just sprinkling it in their Purina Goat Chow, which they absolutely LOVE!!!! 

I've noticed since I switched to the goat chow from the sweet feed my goats coats/fur sure looks nice and their body condition looks better. I will never trust anyone selling feed to give me what I SAID I wanted. Read all labels and nutritional values if the label isn't clear.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

Melissa'sDreamFarm said:
			
		

> If I leave my loose goat minerals out "free choice" they eat it like candy. So just how much does one goat need to consume in a day. I'm afraid to fill it regularly, but if I know about how much they should consume in a day, I can average it out. I've been just sprinkling it in their Purina Goat Chow, which they absolutely LOVE!!!!
> 
> I've noticed since I switched to the goat chow from the sweet feed my goats coats/fur sure looks nice and their body condition looks better. I will never trust anyone selling feed to give me what I SAID I wanted. Read all labels and nutritional values if the label isn't clear.


Sweet feed isn't very good for goats, sounds like you learned that lesson the hard way.  And I don't think they would over-dose on loose minerals being left out all the time. ONe reason yours are eating it like crazy, is because it isn't out all the time.  They slow down on consumption after a few days and start to regulate the amount  they eat. Plus keep in mind a goat milking or gestating would have a higher mineral requiement.  They are more likely to over-dose on it by adding it to the feed, if you add too much on a regular basis.


----------



## PJisaMom

There is salt and lots of other great stuff. Will type whole onyx label in a bit. Was just trying to compare what was out there compared to the tub.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> There is salt and lots of other great stuff. Will type whole onyx label in a bit. Was just trying to compare what was out there compared to the tub.


I mean is there salt in the tub?   

I have the Onyx label, but I am sure others would be interested.


----------



## PJisaMom

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> PJisaMom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is salt and lots of other great stuff. Will type whole onyx label in a bit. Was just trying to compare what was out there compared to the tub.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean is there salt in the tub?
> 
> I have the Onyx label, but I am sure others would be interested.
Click to expand...

The information from the EnergiLass was directly from the Kent website... there was no mention of salt, only what was listed.  

For those who are interested in the Onyx label (because I can't find it online anywhere - but did read somewhere that it may vary by region, so read up!):  

"Calcium 13-15%
Phosphorus min 8%
Salt 14-16%
Sodium 5.3%-6.3%
Magnesium min 2%
Potassium min 1%
Copper min 2500ppm
Iodine min 200ppm
Selenium min 26ppm
Zinc min 5000ppm
Vit A min 100,000 IU/lb
Vit D min 10,000 IU/lb
Vit E min 100 IU/lb

Ingredients:  Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Monocalcium Phosphate, Salt, Magnesium Oxide, Cobalt Carbonate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Zinc Oxide, Iron Oxide, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Copper Amino Acid Complex, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Cobalt Glucoheptonate, Selenium Yeast, Processed Grain By-products, Animal Fat, Molasses Products, Vegetable Oil, Mineral Oil.  

Cargill Onyx: This mineral is designed to be fed to beef cattle on mature or dormant pasture or harvested forages with lower than normal trace mineral availability.  "

Another thing I wanted to ask you all about is the deal with Kelp... I have some Kelp meal that I put out once in a while and the goaties will literally fight to the death over it.  I know many use it as a top-dress or mix it into their feed rations, but anyone ever offer it free-choice?  (It's expensive, but I don't really see how my goats wouldn't end up gorging themselves on it as they are fighting over it from the second they hear me open the container I keep it in... they are literally jumping at the gate and demanding for it to be brought out.)  Can they OD on kelp?


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

As a follow up to Kate's gorgeous doe on page 16- here is one of our milkers.  She freshened for the first time in January.  I haven't rebred her yet.  To me she's in good condition for a lactating doe, but I'll want some more flesh on her before late gestation.


----------



## helmstead

She is so glossy and raven black!!  My black girlie, Velvet, is just as her name implies, more velveteen looking.  Matter of a fact, she's clipped up because I THINK we're taking her to show dry next weekend - I'll get a new pic!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Let's see that gorgeous Velvet!  Yes, LC is the shiniest goat I own.  I half expected her coat to dull down a bit when I washed her yesterday since it strips the oils, but lo and behold she was even glossier!  A little dry brushing and some pro-sheen and we're aces for the show tomorrow.  Here's a pic after her I got her completely fitted yesterday.  I just love black goats!






Edited to add: Pie's coat is like that.  Very open and velvety; not dull but never sleek and tight against the body.  Interesting how different coat textures can be!

And, so as not to completely change the subject... LC is in what I would consider *ideal* condition for a lactating doe.


----------



## PJisaMom

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> Another thing I wanted to ask you all about is the deal with Kelp... I have some Kelp meal that I put out once in a while and the goaties will literally fight to the death over it.  I know many use it as a top-dress or mix it into their feed rations, but anyone ever offer it free-choice?  (It's expensive, but I don't really see how my goats wouldn't end up gorging themselves on it as they are fighting over it from the second they hear me open the container I keep it in... they are literally jumping at the gate and demanding for it to be brought out.)  Can they OD on kelp?


anyone?


----------



## helmstead

I would imagine that, just like the loose minerals, they would EVENTUALLY self regulate the kelp - but most everyone I know who uses kelp uses it as a top dress.


----------



## Roll farms

Several years ago, when all I could find were 'cow' minerals, I tried one of those compressed goat blocks.  I put it in the feeder in their stall and went to work.  I came home and it was GONE.  I thought, "Wow...the goats really loved that thing."  I had 10 at the time.

I found out it was Razor, our LGD....ate the darn thing and had the NASTIEST case of the poos I've seen in a dog since our wolf hybrid got into some milk replacer back in 1999.  

(YES, I had replacer...I raised a lamb on it many moons ago...lol)

Razor had one big hunk of it left and was guarding it from the goats w/ his life...in between bowel movements, that is.  Poor fella.

The tubs are meant to give protein and a little mineral supplement to 'range' animals...those that are not getting any feed, only pasture.

Completely unecessary for anyone giving grain / good hay, IMHO.

Range animals should still be given loose mineral, even w/ a protein tub, they're a supplement, not meant as the be-all, end-all to supply all mineral needs.

We have some sheep farmers at our TSC who buy 10 of those protein tubs every year a mo. before lambing season, to 'build up' their ewes for lambing.  A lot of cattle farmers buy them before calving.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

We only pasture from May until November,so we are gong to try a couple tubs this summer.


----------



## Our7Wonders

kelp can be given free choice.  It's how Pat Colby (Raising Goats Naturally) recommends giving it. I was top dressing it (1 Tbsp. per day) and then I put it out free choice for them - they don't touch it at all.  I may go back to top dressing.


----------



## PJisaMom

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> kelp can be given free choice.  It's how Pat Colby (Raising Goats Naturally) recommends giving it. I was top dressing it (1 Tbsp. per day) and then I put it out free choice for them - they don't touch it at all.  I may go back to top dressing.


That's so interesting to me... I've been offering it *almost* every day for the past 8 weeks or so... they consume the entire amount within 5 minutes (I put out about a 1/2 cup+ or so for five goats - 2 Alpine wethers and 3 ND), and ALL with a massive fight over it.  Even the little girls will head butt the snot out of their mom over it.  It's like candy to them.  And the dog wants to eat some, too, but the goats get it all first.... 

hmmmmm....


----------



## Our7Wonders

I know.  I have weird goats.  On many levels they have been different from all *normal* goats.


----------



## freemotion

Still having trouble getting weight on one of my ff's who had triplets about a month ago.  Her mom, who had triplets too, has gained all her weight back nicely and is looking great.  Another doe, an Alpine, has also gained a lot of weight back after twins....she is my bigger producer, too, and is giving a gallon a day.  She needs a bit more but is gaining noticeably.

Peach took a major hit with those triplets.  She is a picky eater anyways and has topped out at about 8 cups of grain divided into two feedings.  At first she would only eat about 2 cups per feeding.  I added a half cup of sunflower seeds to each meal and any veg scraps, averaging a cup or two a day.  Finally she is up to 8 and lately her appetite is increasing so I hope to get her a bit higher.

I found three bales of last year's alfalfa at a horse farm where I have clients and have been shaking the flakes out into a tub so she can have the pure leaf.  The others get the stems. 

In the past week, due to her sudden increased interest in food....did I mention she had to have a round of Pen G because I had to dig around inside and untangle those triplets with Helmstead's help......I have increased her sunflower seeds to 2-3 cups a day and have convinced her to let me add some alfalfa pellets.  If I mix the alfalfa in with her grain, she won't finish it.  So I add the pellets a bit at a time after she is done with her grain/BOSS/veggies.  I'm creating a princess!  Well, they are all princesses in my heart, who am I trying to kid.

Can someone tell me if there is a limit to the amount of sunflower seeds that it is safe to feed?  She loves them and today I noticed a patch of hair on her back that has gotten a tad darker and very sleek.  

And what about adding a bit of corn?  Is this safe?  How much?  She loves it.  I feed soaked/sprouted oats to my gals, but whole corn to the poultry, and I use whole corn in tiny amounts as  treats for the goats.  I know too much corn can cause niacin deficiency.

I can't dry her off until the kids are weaned, although they are being bottle fed.  She and her mother are feeding them.  She gives maybe two quarts a day....not sure, as I milk her and her mom into the same bucket with a machine.  She has the cutest little udder and is a dream to handle.  I hope to get her gaining so I don't have to dry her off.  But time is running out.

She is a walking skeleton but otherwise healthy.  No worms.  Bright-eyed and bushy tailed!

I did start adding a third feeding, but can't be consistent with it due to my varied work schedule.  So that extra snack is about 2 cups oats and a cup of sunflower seeds.


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## ksalvagno

I don't know about goats but I do know that a lot of sunflower seeds killed some alpacas. The former owner of a property left the bag of BOSS against the alpaca fence to make sure the current owner was feeding the birds. Needless to say, the alpacas got curious and got into the bag. The ones that ate a lot ended up dying.

What about calf manna and/or beet pulp?


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## freemotion

She won't eat beet pulp (I feed it to the others when veggies aren't available) and I won't feed soy, especially to breeding animals.  It contains powerful hormone disruptors that seem to increase production but later decrease fertility and cause other problems.  Calf manna is mostly soy.


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## 20kidsonhill

We add corn to or nursing does.  The does get 3 cups of grain a day, up to 1 cup of rolled/cracked corn and 1 cup of dried beet pulp. Some of them don't like the beet pulp, but they all love the corn. 

If she fills up on corn she may not eat the grain, so I would start out with only 1/4 cup.  

Would she like a top dress on her feed, this would be expensive but we have had good luck with ensure on our show goats feed.  

We worked our 80 to 100lb show whethers up to I can a day for a while, Man did they get shiney, too bad I can't afford to feed everyone like that.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Have you tried rice bran?


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## SuburbanFarmChic

I would second rice bran or rice bran oil.   Dumor (and you can probably find generics) makes a rice bran oil that I've seen in the horse section at tsc.


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## freemotion

What is special about rice bran or the oil?  That is different from any other oil?  Sorry, I get a bit suspicious when a manufacturing byproduct is packaged and marketed......wanna see some reasons why this is a desirable additive.  Not being snippy, just want some logic.  

I added a half cup of corn tonight, much to Peach's delight.  We got some restaurant scraps for the pigs, and it a large box of gorgeous baby salad greens, there were several pounds of carrot peelings and ends.  Peach is getting the lionesses share of these.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

A friend uses rice bran with excellent results.  It adds fat without throwing your cah ratios out of balance.  I've just purchased a doe who needs to gain some weight and will be trying it myself.


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## Livinwright Farm

I will try to get a picture of her onto this thread before I head out in the morning, but my doe Maude has lost quite a bit of conditioning over the past week, I gave her her first dose of dewormer, and have been giving her 2 cups of Noble Goat per feeding, PLUS: probiotics, produce trimmings, corn husks, corn, and she has been out on browse every day.  She is only feeding 1 kid, and I wouldn't think that 1 kid could be causing this much of a loss in condition... but I just don't know.

Also, what would you recommend feeding to a Pygmy in milk? how much of what, that sort of thing.


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## journey11

I've been reading through this thread and I've got some questions about gestational nutrition and how to go about changing/adding to their diet without causing bloating or diarrhea.

My girl, Katie, is in her last month of pregnancy and we found out recently her mama, Julie, is pregnant also! Katie is 11 and Julie is 12. Julie hadn't successfully taken for the past couple of years according to my friends who sold them to me. She was bought more as a pet and companion, so I'm kinda concerned about her kidding at her age.

So there has been a major hay shortage in our area. I can't get good hay without driving a couple hours. May have to borrow a truck because ours is not real road-worthy. My BIL has been kind to spare me a couple round bales, but they're not the best quality of hay, the girls don't really like it, and I am concerned that they are losing condition going into kidding a month from now. I'm looking at what I can add to their diet to help. They are currently on pasture a couple hours a day, dry hay (cattle quality), 1 cup of 50/50 mixed goat ration and sweet feed dusted with DE, top dressed 1 oz. of loose minerals, and 1/4th cup of shelled BOSS each, and occasional animal crackers for a treat. I've been hesitant to let them out on pasture longer because it is so green and lush, been gradually working up on that. 



freemotion said:


> If it is a one quart, that is what my rescued skinny doe got 2x a day, along with ALL the other things, veggies, brush, pasture, alfalfa, beet pulp, BOSS, and the grain was sprouted, dramatically increasing its food value.



I guess what I'm wanting to know is a good procedure to add these things to their diet. I'm kind of limited to what I can buy from the feed store right now. I can go out and cut brush. Wondering what things need to be added slowly and what measurements you would recommend for a ND doe.

The girls were dewormed with Levamisole per my vet, dosed on 3/14 and 3/28. He said Safeguard wasn't working. I'm going to take him another fecal this week to see how effective it has been. I'm still not seeing much pink in their eyelids. They don't scratch or act lousy, but I plan to go ahead and douse them again with Farm Boss this weekend, which is a month from the last time.

I am new to all this, but am reading all I can. I want to set them up for success, especially since they both have a history of multiples. Any advice is much appreciated!


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