# LGD Behavior Issues



## rachels.haven (Jan 14, 2020)

I've been having issues with my Komondor/Pyrenees cross puppy, Badger. He's 6 mo old, and around 80, maybe 90 pounds (too heavy to pick up and lift into a truck even rear  or front at a time and can smash his paws into your chest now). Both parents were working with goats, chickens, alpacas, etc. Mom was about 80-90lbs, dad was a giant pyrenees.
Badger is fine with chickens most of the time.
A few months ago he started chasing goats. He caught one, held it down, and chewed its tail open. He would have killed it if I didn't stop him. Badger got uber punished and was no longer allowed in the goat pens without someone in arms reach and preferably him on a leash. I still keep him around goats, but he continues trying to beat them up and try to eat them.
Then he started going after the kids, so he can't be around kids unless there's an adult he respects present who is prepared to lay down the law FIRMLY again and again until he decides it's not wise to continue (usually only me).
Then he started trying to go after goats eating their alfalfa pellets in their buckets hung on the fence. He rips at the fence, damages it, and tries to rip their ears to get their heads out of the buckets, growing and snarling(there's usually food in his dish because it's around morning feeding time for EVERYONE). So he gets uber disciplined every time he approaches the fence while the goats are eating. The other dog just sits there and watches and (and gets frustration redirected at her when I don't let him misbehave, which she stops as soon as it reaches an annoying to her level). I've gotten it to the point he only does it when he can't see me, or thinks I can't stop him. This means I have to day in and day out stand over the goats or just out of the dog's sight until they are finished, ready to discipline the dog, who is getting rapidly larger, to prevent him from damaging the fencing and hurting goats in their own pens.

He tries to go after goats when they come out of the pens like they are prey or food-standard or dwarf, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't seem like this is changing even with consistency and me preventing the behavior. He just keeps at it like it's hard wired. Is he ever going to be trustworthy around livestock beyond chickens? Or people he knows?  The worry that he's going to break into pens or stalls and kill goats for fun one day is starting to creep up on me. Will a dog that seems to want to treat animals like prey ever settle down and be trustworthy to live with stock? I'm starting to feel like I'm trying to turn a dog that's supposed to be a pet into a stock dog and maybe that the breeder shouldn't have thrown komodor into the mix. I know puppies are supposed to be crazy and nutty rule testers, but this is starting to seem a little excessive I'm concerned this isn't going to end well. What do I do? He's being more a goat liability than a goat protector. This doesn't feel like how things are supposed to go. My other LGD likes goats and little and weak things, but not for dinner. Is he ever going to change with training and even more consistency?  Advice and honesty is welcome.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 14, 2020)

I removed that post so others wouldn't  be offended, . I saw that you read it and got my message. Good luck with Badger and I hope you get him to be the LGD you  want him to be


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## Mini Horses (Jan 14, 2020)

I didn't see the removed post but, here -- Badger would be removed from the farm.  I could never trust.


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## rachels.haven (Jan 14, 2020)

If I can't change the path he's on that's where we're headed.

The problem is, my other dog gets depressed without another dog to be with, even if I bring her in the house she is not meant to be an only. So I'd have to start looking for another friend and more unknown for my sweet girl. It would probably be a relief in the end, but I'm not sure I should be done working and trying on this guy yet...but I also don't want dead goats.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 14, 2020)

It's a hard and sad road you now travel.  I understand the emotions for all.    Consider would a new home for Badger and another friend for your other dog work better for each of you?   Especially Badger.   I would still remove him.

I wish you the best outcome.


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## rachels.haven (Jan 14, 2020)

How do people get LGD's then? Are the puppies just always calm and usually calm to their charges?


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## rachels.haven (Jan 14, 2020)

Well, I contacted his breeder to see if she had any advice to offer as well. I'm still thinking hard and trawling for more info on what I can do.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 14, 2020)

@MikeCHS  @Baymule @@fustratedearthmother  @Beekissed


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 14, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> Well, I contacted his breeder to see if she had any advice to offer as well. I'm still thinking hard and trawling for more info on what I can do.



Hang on, someone will get you some answers after chores and dinner


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## Beekissed (Jan 14, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> How do people get LGD's then? Are the puppies just always calm and usually calm to their charges?



It's important, when you choose a puppy, that you choose one that has the energy level and demeanor that is what you are looking for.   That is, if you get a chance to actually CHOOSE the pup from among his litter mates.    Cesar Milan has an excellent vid and you can still find it online here and there if you do a search, about how to choose a medium level energy puppy.   

Here's a little snippet of one such video, but he has a book and a whole episode of how he chose the pups of each breed he was raising for the purpose of demonstrating how to raise a pup...






Did you do any kind of obedience/alpha training with this pup at all when he arrived at your place?  If not, you'll have to go back to square one and start that, being consistent every day and with every correction.   Instead of reactive training, you can start proactive training, which is always preferable and more effective.    You've got to recognize the signs of his eminent misbehavior before he actually does it, so you can intercept and correct while he can still be redirected from it.   

Until then, you'll likely need to tether this pup~NOT pen him~so he cannot reach the goats but can observe how the elder dog works with them.   Take him off the tether each day and work with him around the goats, giving a quick and hard correction for any overt attention towards the goats....your goal is for him to remain calm around them at all times, no matter what is happening~feeding, playing, etc.  

One good training tip is to make him lie down and stay lying down, calm...not moving or trying to get away...as the goats are moved around him, near him and even over top of him as you pet them, feed them, etc.   And I mean all the way down, on his side or even on his back....submissive to the goats~and you~at all times.   You may need another person to help you with that one.  

If, after some intensive training with him on all things and you see no improvement, I'd get rid of him and start with a better prospect.   Life is too short to put up with hard head and aggression when there are plenty of really nice LGDs out there who will be a lifetime partner with you.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 14, 2020)

I hope the breeder can help you.  At only 6 months old I would HOPE he could be rehabilitated - but the chance of your herd being injured just isn't worth trusting him right now.  Disrespecting your kids is scary too.  I'm certainly not the LGD expert, but every LGD that I've ever owned has been extremely gentle with children.  

I don't think it's unusual for a pup to want to chase something, but it sure seems like your guy is reacting to a prey drive - not a "lets have fun" drive.  It's good of you to recognize that he just not safe to be unsupervised with your children or your goats.  Odd that he's ok with chickens.

If you have the time and the "want-to" to continue to work with him I think @Beekissed suggestion of going back to square one is a good one.


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## rachels.haven (Jan 14, 2020)

Yes, he knows his commands/obedience work. And I am a Ceaser fan so we did do lots of alpha work. Walks and the other basics. He walks on a heel on leash very well. He even discovered a crate in the loft and loves sleeping in as his place, which is his choice not mine, even if we shut him in for the night, which I prefer not to do because I don't need him crate trained beyond basic comfort for emergency situations. We did pick the calmest, most sedate puppy in the litter with the future in mind. He was very sleepy and quite then, and was for a long time. Mom and dad were higher energy though, something I should have made note of. I guess I can put him through a hard boot camp and try letting nothing slip ever for a while.

He has not been being compliant about his obedience commands for the past few weeks. Everything down to the basics has become a battle that I am prepared to win-and do-but it is not easy, definitely making going outside into something to be carefully thought about/weighed. He was only penned for his protection as a tiny puppy, sometimes with goats under our watch, mostly without. (Goats can be mean to puppies). The time he caught and chewed a goat I was in the yard, down the driveway. Otherwise the goat would have been dead. Now he is mostly on a tether when the kids go out (and is still not trustworthy even if he looks calm). I'll do that with the goats too with me there, forcing submission and not allowing goat hunting and stalking from the end of a tie out.

Thank you.


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## rachels.haven (Jan 14, 2020)

The breeder said to muzzle him and leave him around goats or give him bones in the goat pen, which he will not care about and in regards to bones and kongs I already use (because food that is worked for is the best, most healthy food). And she says that I should be outside in the barn more, which isn't possible because I'm already outside most of the day often with the prek kid regardless of weather. Then she asked "how he is WITH supervision around goats"...lol, she thinks he's still allowed IN the pen without supervision and that I'm having this problem because I'm not supervising and not constantly intervening?

That was surprisingly disappointing.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 14, 2020)

So sorry that was the response you got from her.  Very disappointing indeed.


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## Beekissed (Jan 15, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> The breeder said to muzzle him and leave him around goats or give him bones in the goat pen, which he will not care about and in regards to bones and kongs I already use (because food that is worked for is the best, most healthy food). And she says that I should be outside in the barn more, which isn't possible because I'm already outside most of the day often with the prek kid regardless of weather. Then she asked "how he is WITH supervision around goats"...lol, she thinks he's still allowed IN the pen without supervision and that I'm having this problem because I'm not supervising and not constantly intervening?
> 
> That was surprisingly disappointing.



Yep....anyone who breeds a dog that requires a muzzle to do his job shouldn't be breeding anything at all.   She should be offering to take him back and refund your money, at the very least.   No integrity.   

They say there are no bad dogs, just bad owners but that's a huge load of hooey.  I've known bad people, bad horses, bad cats, bad dogs, etc.   There's a bad seed in every species on the planet, if one cares to notice it.   

Do your best and then you can do no more.   If after you've done the very best you can and he's still not coming around, it's time to make a decision about where to place the dog.


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## Baymule (Jan 15, 2020)

When we lost our beloved Parker to pancreatic cancer, our DD and family gave us a Catahoula half grown pup. He was wonderful, but had a prey drive towards chickens. He was transported into a killing frenzy, driven beyond control, to kill. I tried everything, to no avail. One morning, I watched him digging frantically under a portable chicken coop and I thought, "This is never going to end." I knew right then and there that he was ALWAYS going to kill poultry, no matter what I did. He was hard wired to kill. I made the decision to find him a home with no poultry and the perfect couple showed up and he had a great life with them. He was too good of a dog to put down. 

I didn't see @B&B Happy goats post, but I know my twisted sister well, and I can imagine what she said. Probably along the lines of what I am about to say. Anybody that is upset about it, stop here. 

This dog is on track to hurt someone. The fact that he is going after your children is disturbing. It's bad enough that he has a hard desire to kill goats, but going after your children is unforgivable. No. He// NO. The breeder said to put a muzzle on him? I would take him back to her and demand my money back. She seemingly KNOWS she is breeding problem dogs, that is scary. I would take him back, money back or not. I know that you have put the time and training in this puppy. His behavior is degrading into a bad dog. I wouldn't find him another home. If the breeder won't take him back, I would put him down. His behavior has gone way past "stupid puppy" stage and is becoming potentially dangerous to your family, not to mention your livestock. How would you feel if you rehomed him, only to find out that he ripped up some child? 

There are trainers who claim there are no bad dogs, only bad trainers. I say that is a load of crap. Just like there are crazy horses that would stomp you to death, wild "high headed" cattle that would gore the side of your pick up truck and kill you dead, dead, dead, if they got the chance, there are dogs that will never be fit for the job they were bred and born to do. It is ok if a dog is not LGD material and is only pet quality. It is not ok for that dog to attack children. That is a deal breaker any way you want to look at it. If one of my dogs was attacking my grand children, I'd shoot him myself. I've never shot a dog and it would be awful, but attacking children would sure give me the strength to do it. 

Take him back or take him out.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 15, 2020)

i second what baymule said there a difference i  prey drive towards an animal but there should not be one towards your children. we had two dogs awhile back one for no reason went after my nephew who was over 500 feet away for absolutely no reason he got put down. the other started having strokes or seizures and but his mouth on my five year olds head i picked his ads up and threw him outside and exams her I was right there not even a foot away i would have shot him right then except my husband said he would. i am not for killing animals unless there a darn good reason if this 90 lb dog keeps getting bigger he not going to respect even you possibly then what. the what it's in this bother me no dog is worth the life of a child or the damage they could inflict i am not one for rehab with him. i first thouhght you were talking about goat kids it took a minute to realize it was your babies. don't feel bad he actions have nothing to do with you everything to do with his needed and him. i am so sorry I know how hard it is your hopes for what he could be and how things could be you have full knowledge of how he reacts and it's your desion we just tell you what we would do and i am praying that all goes well for yall i know you will make the desion thats right for your family one way or the other. we on your side.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 15, 2020)

I had thought it was goat kid also....
.that certainly  changes my thoughts that I had shared  with you.
Years ago when I was the animal control person in our small town, I had a police officer bring his fully trained police dog to me to put down after it attacked his child......good dogs can go bad.....and some dogs mental wiring is off......just like humans, there are some bad Gene's that can be passed and only one family member gets them  or they all get them.
I sure feel for you with your decision making that is in front of you....


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## Baymule (Jan 15, 2020)

Did I read it wrong? The first of the post was definitely goat kids. Then I read it as human kids later in the post.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 15, 2020)

i don't know in one posting she said she didn't trust him with her kids pre k age child i thought if i am,wrong i appologize. i am confused now...


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## Beekissed (Jan 15, 2020)

Jesusfreak101 said:


> i first thouhght you were talking about goat kids it took a minute to realize it was your babies.



Me too!  Thought they were talking "goat kids".   For aggression towards human children, I offer no slack for any dog.   Any animal that doesn't recognize the dominion of man over animal is promptly dispatched.   No passing GO and no collecting $200.   I have NO problem shooting a dog, have done so before and will do so again.   If done properly it's just as humane as lethal injection.


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## rachels.haven (Jan 15, 2020)

He goes after both. With the human kids I am not sure if it is prey drive and it is less intense, but it is a lot like what he started off doing to the goats, so I am not sure. I feel like play and prey drive can start off the same. The children get scratches and have gotten bitten if they go out of my reach and I have to admit, I have NOT been kind to that dog after that. He probably thinks I am some kind of monster, but he keeps going after them. They know they can't go outside unless he is tied. I was hoping it was just misdirected play and just a puppy thing and we were going to have to train through it. He's not real responsive though. That's what I thought with the goats too at first.

(Bailey, on the other hand follows children around the yard and pulls their sleds up hill for them because she likes to take care of them and likes to "play" too. I wish I knew how to reliably get him to near there, or at least to ignoring children.)

I am going to think about this very hard. I'll start his strict boot camp while I think and see how he reacts, and make sure this isn't play that has run awry. I'm nearly 100% sure he's not an lgd puppy. I almost wonder if he would have been better as a house dog with constant discipline and being asked not to think so much on his own-thinking anything on his own seems to result in injured things. I highly doubt the breeder will refund anything no matter what. In her mind, the dog is fine and I am somehow doing it all wrong (and likely that i have ruined him). That was kind of what I was hoping to hear and how I could change. It looks like I'd be trying to make this dog into something he's not. She will probably not take him back. I also don't want him here, and definitely not as a house dog.

We're probably going to be done with puppies after this and Bailey's going to have to learn to be an only dog and enough for us and enough to keep our little farm property safe. I'm going back to deciding I don't like dogs except for Bailey. She's better never grow old and die.

Yuck, I was hoping to be told I was doing it all wrong.


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## thistlebloom (Jan 15, 2020)

I will preface this with saying I have no real world experience with LGDs. But I am so in agreement with what others have said about the idea that makes the rounds that there are no bad animals, only bad trainers. I've seen examples of psycho horses that were fine one day and the next would happily take your head off without warning. A few dogs too.

I have put one of our own dogs down when it, unprovoked, bit my 4 year old in the face. Didn't even have to think twice.

Rachel, all of the time and energy you have poured into this dog could be spent on a dog that would be a trusted working companion.
I'm so sorry that this is happening, I know what turmoil you're going through.


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## Beekissed (Jan 15, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> We're probably going to be done with puppies after this and Bailey's going to have to learn to be an only dog and enough for us and enough to keep our little farm property safe. I'm going back to deciding I don't like dogs except for Bailey. She's better never grow old and die.



Don't get discouraged over one bad seed.     Bailey would love to have one of her own species with which to romp, work, and snuggle on cold nights....it's just natural for a dog to want to have a social life.    

There are soooo many good LGD pups out there....in fact, this is the first time I've even heard of one that would go after children, though I've heard of them going after livestock, especially when they've been poorly bred or cross bred with another type of dog(herding, hunting, etc.)  Usually they LOVE kids, almost TOO much, and want to be licking them in the face all the time and dancing around them, bumping them with their big ol' butts and knocking them over with the huge wagging tail.  

So many good, loving dogs that could help Bailey do her job....don't miss out on a good thing over this one bad thing?


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 15, 2020)

so sorry Rachel dont let him ruin other dogs for you we have one now that is perfect for us. now she a Aussie, lab mix at first she was a pain killing birds not listening but she turned into a good herder and is great with all animals now. she even herd the pigs for me. she never showed true aggression just over zealous to do her job and lots of play if she had shown aggression she would have gone.


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## Baymule (Jan 15, 2020)

With all the training that you have put into this puppy, if it had been any other dog, you would have a well trained puppy. My dogs love the grand daughters and would lay down their lives for them. When I carried the two youngest, as babies, Trip would put himself between me and what he perceived as danger. The babies could pull handfuls of fur and he loved them. The puppy we have now adores the grands. I tell them that they are helping me train him. He does not paw or jump on them. he wags all around them and loves them.

Please don't let this experience ruin you from other dogs. Try again, don't quit.


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## Hipshot (Jan 22, 2020)

As I read this it makes me sad .LGDs are new in my life pretty much .I know insanity is inherited. Once they get a taste for blood .Flock guarding is over .And if it even gets the notion to attack a child life is over. I lucked out.My first dog  is  amazing .Thinking Pyrenees/Anatolian and just my kind of dog lives with the flock .Comes to eat a goes right back to the flock  .He will walk as far aound the fields as possible to avoid strangers .Pyrenees and Anotolian dogs are  very defensive of thier pups and food . Other than lease training should be left with the flock of whatever. If possible.It is thier nature to shy away from people .I have read every thing I could find on this Breed .The longer I have them the more I love them .Ihave 8 .Pups should be bought young put with an older dog to learn how to behave. Worked with hunting dogs when we had them .Works with LGDs too.So all that being said ,Hot fence is a great tool for teaching dog boundaries. Shock collars also do wonders with hard to train dogs.However nothing will overcome the taste for fresh blood ,Lgds should never be fed any type of blood raw meat.Get rid of the dog is what I would do .Pure Pyrenees Full sisters one year old and there are five goats with them. Chickens go freely in with them.To many good dogs to put up with a bad one.


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## Beekissed (Jan 22, 2020)

Hipshot said:


> ,Lgds should never be fed any type of blood raw meat.



A dog doesn't have to be taught to love raw meat and blood, it's pretty much in their DNA.   Mine get raw meat every chance I can give it to them but they don't kill their flocks.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 22, 2020)

i agree with beekissed stella my aussie/lab mix is a great working dog now but she has been know to kill chickens, ducks, rabbits, and one of my geese however she is now very well behaved to were i can leave my birds with her and all she does is watch them and of course the hussy stills eggs but thats better then killing my birds. i wouldnt trust her with my rabbits because of the fact we have wild rabbits around and that tends to get her going. that being said she will herd the cows just fine, along with goat( when we had them) and their kids, she also herds pigs for us and the birds now as well. i think there a large learning curve and all animals have to learn. she also goes hunting for doves with my husband and knows now what is expect of her on all fronts doesnt mean she wont mess up but she  has learned alot just like we do, we have two cats a well that will kill birds and one that would go after chicks however now she can be trusted with them as well she actually guards them from other cats, and regularly kills snakes and rodents.


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## Baymule (Jan 23, 2020)

@Hipshot in the OP’s journal, this story continues.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 23, 2020)

Hipshot said:


> ,Lgds should never be fed any type of blood raw meat.


I've been feeding raw for years also and my dogs are awesome guardians.


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## Beekissed (Jan 29, 2020)

Was wondering how the training on your dog was going?


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## rachels.haven (Jan 29, 2020)

Not so great, actually. Badger started having sizures a few days after I started this thread. He was diagnosed with epilepsy, began treatment and I was advised to find him an indoor home. The aggressive behavior was probably connected to it. A few days later out of the blue he became frenzied and attacked me and knocked me down and began going after my face, ears, and neck. My thick Carhartt coat and most of all my other dog saved me from being mauled by driving him off and holding him at bay so I could get up and go back inside. After that I decided he was too dangerous to re-home or turn over to a rescue and risk contributing to someone getting killed as he got larger so we put him down. State required he be tested for rabies.

His breeder is a piece of work and at the epilepsy diagnosis began spreading that I was a terrible dog owner, calling the police, our vet, and animal control telling them that we'd beaten him into siezures and that we were going to put him down at home, and threatening (probably empty) legal action if I told anyone about his condition because epilepsy is apparently most often genetic. Her actions made this whole mess particularly painful. The police and animal control were very kind to us and tried to be helpful once they knew what was going on so things could have been much worse...


So it kind of all went South and blew up. Im not sure we will be able to get a puppy from a responsible breeder ever with all that doubt and roumer hanging over us, even if I wanted to.

It was all in all a very painful, traumatic, expensive experience. I've decided we won't be looking to replace Badger any time soon, but I love my one good girl and we will always take good care of her. I am so grateful for the work she does keeping the goats and the barnyard safe and how sweet and gentle she is with my children as well as how intelligent and responsive she is with obedience work and behavior when we do ask her to be a normal dog.

So yes, that was how it went. Not so great.


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## Beekissed (Jan 29, 2020)

I'm so sorry that it all went that way!  The breeder needs to be reported on any LGD site you can do it on, but I know how you feel....who wants to deal with all the drama and bad feelings of someone like that?   Best just to move past this horrible episode and keep that evil out of your life.  Make no mistake, the truth will out and more of her pups will be diagnosed with epilepsy.    Hopefully before a child gets mauled.  

The account of him going after you like that was scary....could have turned out WAY worse.     I don't blame you one bit for being leery of trying something like that again.  

Thank you for the update, I was wondering if the dog had changed at all....very uncharacteristic for one of these LGD breeds to be that overtly aggressive, particularly towards their own humans.


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## rachels.haven (Jan 29, 2020)

Thanks. I've reviewed her on Yelp, google, and on her fb but I can tell she's done this before and hidden or marked as spam all my efforts with exception of the Yelp one and after what she wrote in response to that I'm not sure I'd sell me a dog either. I just hope no one gets killed.

I agree with you though. That woman is evil and that level of darkness has no place in my life. Life is too short and all...


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## Baymule (Jan 29, 2020)

My heart breaks for you and Badger. He should have never been born, he was a victim of an unscrupulous breeder as much as you and your family were. I can certainly see how this dreadful experience would sour you on another puppy, but please don’t let this ruin you. 99.9% of LGD’s are wonderful trustworthy partners in farming life. There are also grown, trained LGDs out there just like the one you have now. I am deeply sorry for the horrible experience you went through.


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## Beekissed (Jan 29, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> I agree with you though. That woman is evil and that level of darkness has no place in my life. *Life is too short and all...*



I agree!  

That's growing more frequent in today's society and I too turn my back on engaging with such an element.   God will take care of it and doesn't need me to do so.


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## YourRabbitGirl (Feb 5, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> I've been having issues with my Komondor/Pyrenees cross puppy, Badger. He's 6 mo old, and around 80, maybe 90 pounds (too heavy to pick up and lift into a truck even rear  or front at a time and can smash his paws into your chest now). Both parents were working with goats, chickens, alpacas, etc. Mom was about 80-90lbs, dad was a giant pyrenees.
> Badger is fine with chickens most of the time.
> A few months ago he started chasing goats. He caught one, held it down, and chewed its tail open. He would have killed it if I didn't stop him. Badger got uber punished and was no longer allowed in the goat pens without someone in arms reach and preferably him on a leash. I still keep him around goats, but he continues trying to beat them up and try to eat them.
> Then he started going after the kids, so he can't be around kids unless there's an adult he respects present who is prepared to lay down the law FIRMLY again and again until he decides it's not wise to continue (usually only me).
> ...


If you have issues with them.. send them here.. Hahaha!! I'll be more than happy to take care of them.. (im serious)


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## rachels.haven (Feb 5, 2020)

Aw, I wish. Turns out his behavioral issues were probably linked to or at least compounded by his neurological issues. I didn't want my eventually 150-180 lbs dog to randomly kill someone or someone's child or wife if I passed him off onto a rescue or a loving home and I could have prevented it from happening. I'd rather have that spot in a rescue go to a dog that wasn't going to randomly decide he was going to eat someone's face off and change their life forever at best. It got very scary and very sad. I think I made the right, responsible choice though-just the very sad one.


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## thistlebloom (Feb 5, 2020)

You did the absolute right thing.


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## AmberRaif (Feb 5, 2020)

So horrible, such a tramatic thing...but yes, you made the absolute right decision. I'm sorry that you had to go through this.


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## Hipshot (Feb 9, 2020)

This is such a heartbreaking story.sad that there are so many worthless people .When they tested poor Badger were there leesions on his brain? Since starting with these dogs ,we have sold three litters .If even now someone came to me with such a story . I would take back the dog refund thier money.Add extra for trouble and feed .Wife would throw a fit  .But right is right . I have seen my big male take a got by the horns and pen it to the ground for trying to eat his food.Scared the heck out me the first time he did it .Five minutes later the same goat was laying beside him.I love them all .Hard to let a single puppy go. Only thirty ago I watched Joe and Bella take off after a coyote .Well at least I think that is what it was.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 9, 2020)

Before Cesar Millan, there was a British lady, Barbara Woodhouse (anyone else old enough to remember her, lol?). In her book, she mentioned a dog (a Boxer, I think it was) that had what she called psychotic episodes - going along fine, everybody's happy, and suddenly the dog attacks the person holding the lead (or anyone else within reach). Totally random, and when it was over, the dog was his usual sweet self. If I recall correctly, the owner of that dog was so in love with their dog's "normal" personality, they chose to keep a muzzle on the dog all the time rather than put him down. Can't imagine living like that, and I've no idea whether anti- seizure medications may have helped. In any case, a working dog needs to be sound of body and mind; even with medication, I'm not sure I'd ever be able to trust an LGD to be able to do its job (and he certainly couldn't do it muzzled!).

I am sorry to hear that you went through this; it sounds like a wretched experience all ways 'round. As painful as it was, you made the right choice;  poor Badger was a bomb waiting to go off on some unsuspecting person (rather like his breeder!).


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## rachels.haven (Feb 9, 2020)

Unfortunately I had my warning signs with my dog, mostly on the day they came home. The main one was that she had her "pickup day" right on their eight weeks birthday. And the pups were all being treated for coccidia and upset digestive tracts the day they came home. Her instructions were to immediately take him off raw feeding, begin medicating, and start a new food THAT DAY. He and his siblings had probably also been receiving too much protein and had knuckled over and swollen joints and could hardly walk. And when I wrote her about him vomiting excessively the first day her response was to become defensive and claim none of the other puppies had that issue and it had to be something I was doing...except I hadn't had a chance to feed him anything, or let him eat anything, even grass. I literally had him in the house because he seemed lethargic to me. I should have taken the puppy back right there. But I'm a puppy noob, and I didn't know what was normal a dog so young (I've done this dog thing backwards, and mainly worked with young teen dogs or adults my whole life). It took several days to get the vomiting to stop. They also charge you every day they keep your puppy past 8 weeks, which is the state of NH required minimum age at which puppies can be sold. I really, really, really should have shied there.

And if I'd gone on yelp I could see they'd only been "farming" for 2 years at the time, so they were basically breeding and selling puppies from puppies at best. And none of their goats have listed pedigrees anywhere on their website. It's an "aww, so cute, don't you want one" kind of website. Backyard breeder.

Unfortunately the vet could not test his brain for anything. Because he had bitten and broken skin (on my 4 year old) within the last 10 days of being put down the state required he be rabies tested. The state of Massachusetts does not allow any further testing or autopsy on the brain unfortunately.  We asked the euthanizing vet about that. He probably could have glanced if it was a surface thing, but I don't think he was legally supposed to because of the laws in the state we live in. It's really dumb.

I'm sure there are good breeders who take pride and love the dogs they produce like you and your wife @Hipshot , but this lady and her partner was not one of them. I guess I know better now.

I also know there are good breeders out there because our other LGD would NEVER have acted like that ever. She's extremely careful even when taking biscuits out of our hands. She doesn't want to even TOUCH us with those teeth. If we acted hurt she'd be mortified. She'd also NEVER knock us over, or bark or snap at us, and she gives the goats (and after a while of working with her, the chickens too) the same respect. Baby goats make her SO wiggly tail happy because she can lick them and cuddle them until they go back to mommy. She did defend food occasionally in the goat pen, but we don't feed her there anymore for that reason (also, sometimes she didn't defend her kibble, then she starves). And you're right hipshot, when the goats have occasionally tried to go to war with her over food, they know the gloves are off then but 5 minutes later with no food on the scene they are ready to follow her and lay down to sleep next to her again. LOL, but my nerves can't handle that, so she gets fed OUT of the goats reach (plus, I don't think the herbivore, ruminant goats should be eating dog food).

Personally, if I'd bred an animal someone was claiming was acting like that I'd take it back IMMEDIATELY for a long evaluation in quarantine. I'd want my own vet and a specialist to see the dog and pay for extensive testing with my own money. If I thought it was any threat to people I'd put it down and autopsy and want to council with my vet and evaluate my breeding animals for future problems of their own as well as future problems with their past and future offspring. And if I thought there was no problem with the dog in quarantine after a few months of watching in a kennel and testing I'd find it a home. Refunding of the purchase price is something I'd absolutely do, but after 6 months of raising a puppy purchase price is more of a token of goodwill. You can't put a price on falling in love with a dog, and working with a dog, then what followed with Badger. I wish she'd been responsible. I can't shake the feeling that someone else is going to have this happen and may die and I'm the only one who knows about it. But I've done all I can.

For a while there she rebutted my reviews by claiming I was making up this whole story so I could get money, but I don't see how buying one of her dogs, getting it normal puppy vet care, feeding it premium dog food, buying it the things it needs, investing the required time (and loving it, good grief, that hurts the most) then making up a story, getting the tests the vet recommends done and returning the dog would make me any money. Even if the purchase price of the dog had been refunded we'd still be out several thousand. I'm not sure, nor do I care what her rebuttals or follow ups to my reviews say now. For all I know her partner may have rewritten them and they say something more cutting or less insane sounding in response, but what happened happened whatever they claimed and it's over now. Two of the three reviews/warnings I left have been "disappeared" by google and FB, and only the one on yelp remains and I've chosen not to check on that. She didn't even want to see him again if I GAVE him to her, forget her getting him seen by her vet (although I'm not sure what she would have done with him and how it would have ended for him after seeing what kind of person she was-what if she'd hurt him, neglected his care, dumped him, or worse, taken him to a shelter as "adoptable" and he'd gotten placed with a baby or other small children?).

Honestly, after it's all over, I think I may have gotten a dog from a lady who had serious unmanaged mental health issues and is going to kill someone with the dangerous dogs she's breeding and I got lucky because mine fell apart at 6 months and 90 lbs instead of 3 years and 180 lbs. I am very, very lucky.

Maybe someday we'll try again, but right now I only want my one dog, who has more than earned my trust.

Anyway, thanks for letting me fret and vent. Time to brave the ice and cold and feed the beasts!


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