# Diarhea and lathargic



## Hillsvale (Jul 3, 2011)

I have four month old twin buckling and doeling, they have had diahrea on and off since we brought them home... actually the buckling had it before we brought him home but it cleared... when they came here I sort of thought i was because they have access to their own grain (ie: big goats not pigging out).

Tonight I go to the barn and the buckling is showing signs of lethargia, they both have runny butts... he eats a little then stops. I haven't noticed issues with peeing or pooping but there are certainly lots of baby poops which could only be theirs. They have free access to both soda and salt and there is a mineral lick (we can't get free choise loose minerals for goats here unless buying in bulk (pallet load)

I am not hot on giving regular wormings and shots etc.. I prefer to try an keep them drug free where possible (this property has never been a farm before). I gave both babies 5cc of pepto and in reading decided to give a selon e shot to both (1/4 cc... which seems so little!) and oral ivomectin 1cc incase there was a worm issue.

Can anyone give me some insite?

Thank you


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

Have they been on any type of cocci prevention?  If you search the threads here for cocci you'll find lots of good info on it.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 3, 2011)

I have not but will, we operate on something short of dial up so research can be a pain!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 3, 2011)

How much do they weigh?  1 cc of ivermectin may not be the proper dose, unless they're under 30 lbs.  It's typically dosed at 1cc/22lbs, but I've seen up to 1cc/30lbs for the injectable given orally.  Are they on a coccidiosis prevention program?  Unless you're 100% sure the cause is dietary you run the risk of the pepto masking the symptoms without treating the actual illness.  If you want to avoid unnecessary worming and coccidiostats then you need to do a fecal to determine when they're warranted.  By running regular fecals you can always do the minimum amount of wormer necessary while still keeping your herd alive and healthy.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 3, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> How much do they weigh?  1 cc of ivermectin may not be the proper dose, unless they're under 30 lbs.  It's typically dosed at 1cc/22lbs, but I've seen up to 1cc/30lbs for the injectable given orally.  Are they on a coccidiosis prevention program?  Unless you're 100% sure the cause is dietary you run the risk of the pepto masking the symptoms without treating the actual illness.  If you want to avoid unnecessary worming and coccidiostats then you need to do a fecal to determine when they're warranted.  By running regular fecals you can always do the minimum amount of wormer necessary while still keeping your herd alive and healthy.


The doeling may be 25 pounds.... the buckling would be 20 +-

We do not have much of a goat veterinary group here, goats are just really becoming popular so hopefully that will change soon; our dogs vet is slightly knowledgable but he only knows what he learned as a kid and does not treat them (city vet) ... most of them either treat the big stuff, or cats and dogs. I gave 1cc orally, injectible ivermectin. I know I could have masked symptoms but panic set in a bit... as we lost another goat a few days ago when it got caught in the feeder and choked... I feel terrible.

As mentioned we are on "broadand" which is barely serviceble over dial up..... I will research a bit more at work but you mentioned fecal samples.... can you tell me what is it I do for these (other than the obvious collecting or samples).... once again no vets are really interested in goats here. Can I test/look for something here?

I really appreciate the feedback. I haven't had these problems before .. and given we have started buying breeding stock I guess I had better make this the third job!


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

We don't have goat vets here either.  But any large animal vet can run the fecal for you.  And it's not expensive either.  The vet here is on the higher end at about $15.00.  I drop off the fecal and he calls me within the hour to let me know what he finds.  Even a small animal vet could run it for you - they run them for dogs and cats - though a large animal vet is pretty used to running them for horses and cows.  

Cocci is pretty common in young goats.  Eventually they build up a resistance, but that's not until they are 6-12 months old.  Your goats are definately at the right age for it.  

With tomorrow being a holiday your not likely to get a vet to run a fecal until at least Tuesday.  If it were me (and I treat holistically whenever I can too) I would start treatment for cocci just because if they are lethargic you may be running out of time.  I'd call all the feed stores and see if you can find dimethox (or Albon).  

Then again, with the holiday you're not likely to find a feed store open until Tuesday either.  I didn't think of that.  Do you have any meds on hand?  If you let us know what you have perhaps someone can suggest a protocol to follow until you can get a vet involved or other meds on hand.  Sorry I wish I had better info for you.  It sucks dealing with sick goats - I've got a sick one now that I'm working on myself.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 3, 2011)

I would treat them for cocci. Sulfa dimethoxine(albon) or corid>   Cocci is so so common in young kids, especially after stress of rehoming.  

I would treat for 7 days.


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## elevan (Jul 3, 2011)

Canada doesn't celebrate America's Independence Day...and that is where the OP is (Nova Scotia).

So getting a fecal run in the morning shouldn't be a problem.  Make sure the vet runs the fecal to include a check for coccidia.  Treatment is Sulfa dimethoxine (Albon).


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 3, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Canada doesn't celebrate America's Independence Day...and that is where the OP is (Nova Scotia).
> 
> So getting a fecal run in the morning shouldn't be a problem.


Oh - good call!  I don't ever pay attention to where people are from.  That's great news - I hope you can get some help first thing tomorrow morning.


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## Ariel301 (Jul 4, 2011)

That sounds exactly like a cocci problem, I would get them on treatment right away. Check the color of the inside of the lower eyelid--is it a nice bright pink, or pale or white? If it is not bright, they are anemic, probably from cocci. You can give them some vitamin B and a little bit of something like Red Cell if they're really bad to help speed their recovery once you get them on treatment. 20-25 pounds is pretty small for 4 month old kids unless they are a small breed, sounds like the parasite load may be slowing their growth--do they have big fat bellies but not much padding over the ribs? That's classical with cocci-stunted kids. They'll come out of it though once they are treated. I hate loading my goats with medicines/chemicals as well, but after losing and stunting quite a number of kids, I had to break down and start a coccidiosis treatment routine, since the strain I have seems to be particularly nasty and resistant to treatment, I feed decoquinate-medicated grain daily, as well as a 5 day course once a month of Di-Methox and SafeGuard. Hopefully your kids don't end up needing to take all of that. :/


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## Hillsvale (Jul 4, 2011)

thanks all, yes we are in Canada... our holiday is Canada Day which we celebrated Friday July 1st.

The large animal clinic is 2 hours away... unlike US any vet related treatments start at $100 and go from there!

these kids were dehorned months ago and have been on my farm for 2 months, can't be a rehoming or disbudding  stress.

There have been lots of drugs mentioned here, the common one being Dimethox (sulfa dimethoxine). What is the dosage for these drugs, I can get to the farm store when they open.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 4, 2011)

The prevention dose for DiMethox is 1cc/5 lbs day 1,  1cc/10 lbs days 2-5.  Not sure if the treatment dose is higher, as we've always given the preventative doses.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 4, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> The prevention dose for DiMethox is 1cc/5 lbs day 1,  1cc/10 lbs days 2-5.  Not sure if the treatment dose is higher, as we've always given the preventative doses.


thanks for that...

I send Simon to the feed store this morning.... nada, so he went to two seperate vets... neither of them have heard of any of the drugs mentioned here.  they asked whether we were sure if it was Cocci... well, no we aren't; told us we could drop off a fecal sample.... don't know if he is capable. They gave him a tablet of Calfspan (say it replaces Cocci-Boi-O), said to disolve half of it and give it orally which I have done.... I also gave him in the area of 4 -6 oz of electrolite water... his eyes are not so dry now so I suppose that's good. 

I feel totally out of my element and helpless. Si has left for the office as he had meetings, I am letting people in my office down and my assistant is out sick... I have to go with a very sick buckling in my spare room.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 4, 2011)

Yea what they said, and most definitely discontinue the salt and baking soda.  If you give them the salt and baking soda they will not eat the minerals which they need.  The mineral"block" is not preferred, loose minerals are.  You can just use a hammer and bust up the block then next time buy loose minerals.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 4, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Yea what they said, and most definitely discontinue the salt and baking soda.  If you give them the salt and baking soda they will not eat the minerals which they need.  The mineral"block" is not preferred, loose minerals are.  You can just use a hammer and bust up the block then next time buy loose minerals.


The mineral blocks may not be preferred but as mentioned we can't get the loose minerals unless buying a pallet here so the blocks are the best we can do, a pallet of loose minerals is out of the question as shipping from the states is astronomical plus the goverment hoops to have this cross the boarder. Not to mention none of the drugs spoken of here are available in Canada, they have not been approved.

Bucklings fecal showed Cocci, 24 hours is very short when you have a sick bucking .... by the time I got back from the vet he was dead. I have treated the others with the meds the vet sent back with me... hopefully we can learn a lesson from this hard as that is.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 4, 2011)

I am so sorry.  Don't be too hard on yourself, it is a very common mistake.  Please folks, keep those coccidiosis meds on hand.  Best of luck with your remaining kids.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 4, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss.  I hope the others pull through.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 4, 2011)

vet says only the twin and the next youngest should be at risk... they have been dosed with the liquid he gave me and all the goats have had ivomec as requested... unfortunatly the assistant told me orally but the vet (after giving the goats orally) tells me he would prefer subq.. guess the sheep/lambs will love me tonight!


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## Goatmasta (Jul 4, 2011)

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> vet says only the twin and the next youngest should be at risk... they have been dosed with the liquid he gave me and all the goats have had ivomec as requested... unfortunatly the assistant told me orally but the vet (after giving the goats orally) tells me he would prefer subq.. guess the sheep/lambs will love me tonight!


Ivermec injectable should be given orally not injected.  Not all agree with that, but it is my experience that injecting ivermec is not a good thing, nor is it necessary.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 4, 2011)

I know the oral administration gives the worms a direct hit ... this is preventative given the fecal of the little buckling, I think the SQ injection is designed to give them a slower hit so they loose the worms slowly since they don't seem to be affecting them.

I can only do what the vet told me since all this hit me so quickly, he is one of the only goat vets in Nova Scotia...

I appreciate the help


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## helmstead (Jul 4, 2011)

So sorry for your loss


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## elevan (Jul 4, 2011)

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> I know the oral administration gives the worms a direct hit ... this is preventative given the fecal of the little buckling, I think the SQ injection is designed to give them a slower hit so they loose the worms slowly since they don't seem to be affecting them.
> 
> I can only do what the vet told me since all this hit me so quickly, he is one of the only goat vets in Nova Scotia...
> 
> I appreciate the help


It can really be given either way, do what you feel is right for you and your herd.  I prefer orally for worms and SQ when dealing with external parasites myself.

If you've never given Ivomec SQ be prepared for the goat to have a reaction that can almost seem seizure like.  It's a pain response because the stuff burns like the dickens!  It won't last long though and some goats are more dramatic about it than others.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 4, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> If you've never given Ivomec SQ be prepared for the goat to have a reaction that can almost seem seizure like.  It's a pain response because the stuff burns like the dickens!  It won't last long though and some goats are more dramatic about it than others.


And some die from that sting.


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## elevan (Jul 4, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
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That is a risk of giving *any* injection, not just Ivomec.  Having epi on hand when giving injections is a must imo.  Also if you're not comfortable with being able to tell what is normal pain reaction and what is allergic reaction then I suggest that the goat owner give it (ivermectin) orally at all times.  I made my choice after working closely with my vet before coming to my decision.

_Every farm is different and everyone has a different level of risk that they are willing to accept._


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## Goatmasta (Jul 4, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Goatmasta said:
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> 
> 
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The risk is drastically increased when injecting drugs with a stinging carrier such as ivermec and LA-200.  I know you think I am full of it, but the fact is that I have administered several hundred more injections that you have.  I would disagree with you in private, but since you told me not to PM you, it's here. (that's for the mods when you report my post).


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

_Goatmasta - I sent you a PM_

And I will repeat that -  Every farm is different and everyone has a different level of risk that they are willing to accept.  The law of averages means that the more times you do something the greater the chance of an out of the ordinary instance.  Death from Ivomec injection doesn't happen every time.  Does it happen 1 out of 100...1 out of 1,000...1 out of 10,000???  I don't know that answer.  It hasn't happened in the 60 times that I've done it in the past 2 years...that's what I know.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 5, 2011)

interesting debate....

As I mentioned I gave the ivomec orally to the goats before finding out the vet wanted them all done SQ, last evening I started with the SQ on the sheep and lambs... half way through that it was hot and sticky... the lambs were having none of it not to mention half of them are not hair sheep and are pretty wooly and I just pried open their mouths and did the remainder orally... I prefer oral meds but sometimes you just can't.

The little twin doeling seems to be doing fine though she still has the runs, today will be day two for her cocci meds... the other doeling being treated is showing no signs of anything so I have my fingers crossed.


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## Hillsvale (Jul 5, 2011)

BTW Goatmasta (Ben)... I like your blog especially the breeding bit, I am trying to determine that now.

Cheers

Shelley


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## Hillsvale (Jul 9, 2011)

just a small update...

the two dolings being treated post death of the buckling are doing just fine, the twin who was showing symptoms has firmerpoops, her butt is clearing up and she is now screaming for food ever time she sees us.

Thanks


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 9, 2011)

That's really good news!


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## elevan (Jul 9, 2011)

Hillsvale said:
			
		

> just a small update...
> 
> the two dolings being treated post death of the buckling are doing just fine, the twin who was showing symptoms has firmerpoops, her butt is clearing up and she is now screaming for food ever time she sees us.
> 
> Thanks


  Good news!


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