# Interesting conversation with vet...



## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

Some of you guys get onto me sometimes for doing stuff without running batteries of tests first, just because doing x,y, or z seems right in my head...  I thought y'all might enjoy this..


I called my vet's office yesterday looking for a few vials of this and that, and I also mentioned that I needed to speak with someone about whether to A) refill a scrip to continue one of my dogs on levothyroxine that's not helping or B) try to figure something else out for her.

My primary goat vet actually called me back at 6:41pm.  I didn't expect that -- actually expected a call from one of the techs the next day -- but maybe that's what happens when you put $300 into a $40 buck and $1,600 into knee surgery for an LGD you got free, etc.   

Anyhoo..

I talked about what was going on with the dog and why I was reluctant to keep trying the levothyroxine, and he more or less agreed..  Said we should probably run some more tests to see if there's something else going on..

Then he said the most intriguing thing.....  He said it's entirely possible that we may not get anything of "diagnostic value" from tests, and that we may have to go off our "clinical impressions" and start some "trial therapy."

In other words...look at her, theorize what may be wrong, then just try some stuff to see what works.

So, with that in mind, I've decided I'm going to alter my language on this forum..  From now on, instead of saying "Sounds like ________, so I'd probably try some _____ and see what happens," I'm going to "suggest a course of trial therapy with _____, based off the clinical impression that it could be _____________."

Sounds _much_ better, right?!?!


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## warthog (Oct 19, 2010)

Just keep on doing what your doing, you seem to be getting it right 

Dont change the jargon, nobody will understand anymore


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> Just keep on doing what your doing, you seem to be getting it right


Sometimes...but I've dug my share of holes, too.  :/



> Dont change the jargon, nobody will understand anymore


You say that as if anybody understands _now_.   

Do you know how many posts I've seen here that start with "What CM's trying to say is......"


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## warthog (Oct 19, 2010)

But if they start with "what CM is trying to say", then they have understood them and are just clarifying in case of any doubt.


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## jodief100 (Oct 19, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> But if they start with "what CM is trying to say", then they have understood them and are just clarifying in case of any doubt.


Nope, it just means we have collected enough data that we have developed a CM cipher.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 19, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Some of you guys get onto me sometimes for doing stuff without running batteries of tests first, just because doing x,y, or z seems right in my head...  I thought y'all might enjoy this..
> 
> In other words...look at her, theorize what may be wrong, then just try some stuff to see what works.
> 
> ...


Dont change a thing!!  You'll confuse us even more!!!!!    

 

Whats wrong with your pooch??? Thyroid issues???


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

Yeah, like "CM's often long winded and goes off on tangents about things which -- at best -- have a tenuous relationship to the situation at hand.  So when he started prattling on about being unable to use FAMACHA to distinguish between a goat which has launched a successful TH1/cellular immune response to internal parasite infestation and goat which simply has a high level of hemopoeitic resilience just a second ago, what he meant to say was _if its eyelids are pale, you should probably deworm._"

 

FWIW, you guys would be SHOCKED if you knew how often I write a bunch of loosely-related stuff only to go back and delete a bunch of it before submitting, just for some semblance of brevity.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 19, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> _if its eyelids are pale, you should probably deworm._"


EXACTLY!!!!      That is soooo funny!!!  Thanks for editing for us simpletons, cuz if you did'nt Im sure it would be like reading Mercks Vet Manual!!   

I read that and most times Im like    what did that just mean????    Cant they just speak english!!  

_Hope your pooch is okay! Good luck with that!!_


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## glenolam (Oct 19, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> FWIW, you guys would be SHOCKED if you knew how often I write a bunch of loosely-related stuff only to go back and delete a bunch of it before submitting, just for some semblance of brevity.


Is it really bad that I'm not shocked?  For some odd reason I can see "an ignorant redneck hillbilly" sitting there at his desk, head buried down, eyebrows crinkled, punching the keys, moving the mouse around and clicking away....._trying_ to simplify his responses as much as possible....

Then sitting back in his chair, look at the screen and say "Yeah - Yeah that sounds good".


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## warthog (Oct 19, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> warthog said:
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Ah shame on you, the guy does is best, just likes to pratle on a bit


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## glenolam (Oct 19, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> Ah shame on you, the guy does is best, just likes to pratle on a bit


CM - I bet your a good party guest where there's few people that know each other....


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## Emmetts Dairy (Oct 19, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> just likes to pratle on a bit


PRATLE!!   I love that word...hav'nt heard in a long time...My Nana use to use it all the time..!!  Funny!!      She was from Ireland!!  So she had all kinds of neat words she taught us!!  I think I was the only kid on my block that could swear in gaelic!!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Dont change a thing!!  You'll confuse us even more!!!!!






> Whats wrong with your pooch??? Thyroid issues???


We thought so, and she tested positive for problems, but now I'm not so sure that's the whole story.  She was a curbside special...thin, wormy, smelly, etc.  Got her to the vet for shots and a checkup the day after we found her, and everything checked out OK..  After a few months of basic, routine care (read that food + water + shelter), she started to fatten up..  

That was good at first, but then she just...kept...going.

She should be in the 40lb+/- range, but she's more like...gulp...65lbs?  Fat..  Like, "can't feel ribs or spinal processes" fat.  And then her hair started getting super dull and rough and THICK.  

I pretty much knew she was hypothyroid when I decided to take her to the vet, and they agreed it was probable, so we did the tests -- I even opted for the more expensive, more diagnostically-valuable one -- and they came back conclusive for hypothyroidism.  We put her on 0.6mg of levothyroxine 2x/day.  Retested in a month to verify the dosage and it was declared to be spot on -- her total T4 levels were fine.  

Thing is, *she* never improved.  Blood levels are one thing, but she kept the "carpet coat" and stayed fat despite being on a measly 2 dry measuring cups of food per day.  I didn't much know what else to do except keep giving her the meds and hope she improved..

Ummm, yeah, that was like a year and a half ago...  Just recently, she started losing big giant clumps of hair, right down to bare skin.  Lost a patch on her hind leg as big as my hand.  

When her last bottle of pills ran out, I didn't bother to get more.  That's what I was talking to the vet about yesterday, and he recommends more tests and/or "trial therapy" of other stuff.

I don't think they ever ran a *free* T4 test, so it could be that her blood levels look ok, but all of the T4 is bound and isn't being used.  And/or, we may try putting her on a different *brand* of T4 supplement, as that sometimes helps for whatever reason..  And/or she may get T3 therapy, just in case she can't do the T4->T3 thing and her T4s are good while her T3s are still low (T3 is the more bioactive form of thyroid hormone)..  And/or she may need some other type of therapy altogether -- the vet mentioned the possibility that some other disorder may be impacting her thyroid's ability to do its job and/or her ability to convert T4->T3, etc.

Should be a lot of fun...and will probably cost a lot of money that I *super* don't have right now.  

She's a good dog, though.  Super sweet to people, big and small.  LOVES kids.    It's always funny to see my little nieces come over and yell "MAAAAANDY!" when they get outta the car...and then basically tackle her to the ground with hugs and pettin'.   Then she just follows them around wherever they go, tail wagging the whole time.

In short...she's kinda worth it.


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## freemotion (Oct 19, 2010)

Have you tried her on a grain-free diet yet?  I'd suggest raw, but I'd probably be start a war here....sounds like she could have a food issue, or at least it may be a contributing factor.

You only paid $1600 for a knee surgery???  Shee-ooot, do you know how many goats I could buy if my dog's recently....and not all that successful....knee surgery only cost $1600???


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Is it really bad that I'm not shocked?  For some odd reason I can see "an ignorant redneck hillbilly" sitting there at his desk, head buried down, eyebrows crinkled, punching the keys, moving the mouse around and clicking away....._trying_ to simplify his responses as much as possible....
> 
> Then sitting back in his chair, look at the screen and say "Yeah - Yeah that sounds good".


I resemble that remark.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Have you tried her on a grain-free diet yet?  I'd suggest raw, but I'd probably be start a war here....sounds like she could have a food issue, or at least it may be a contributing factor.
> 
> You only paid $1600 for a knee surgery???  Shee-ooot, do you know how many goats I could buy if my dog's recently....and not all that successful....knee surgery only cost $1600???


Nawp...haven't tried switching her food.  I know that's usually the place to start when there's no good diagnosis to hang a hat on, but she's never had any hotspots, ear issues, itchiness, etc..  And if it were a simple matter of her coat being rough or dry or dull, I'd probably have done that -- but it's a textbook "carpet coat."  The phrase most frequently used to describe it is "retarded turnover of hair" (which, incidentally, is what I call the sisyphean task of vacuuming my carpets -- but I digress).  You can imagine what that would be...just a thick, thick coat of old, dry, dull hair..  She's mostly black, and her hair actually hangs around long enough to turn a little red on the tips from sun fade..

Anyway, my gut tells me this isn't just a "condition," as it were...it's a *disorder* of some kind, if that makes any sense.



And, yeah...$1,600 for knee surgery.  Or somewhere thereabout.  Cool thing was, he got human-grade hardware with what's called the "TightRope" procedure.  Pretty cool.  

I mean...not cool that he blew out his CCL (=ACL in humans), partially blew out his PCL and destroyed his menisci...but cool that he truly seems to be back to 100% now, 8-months later.  

I pity the fool who'd try to outrun him, let's put it that way.  



What kind of knee surgery did your dog have??


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## warthog (Oct 19, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> warthog said:
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Pity I didn't check my typing, should be prattle (two t"s).

Each time I post I'll try to think of something different to see if anyone knows the word.

Swear in gaelic.  My DH is quite proud he can swear in German and Afrikaans.   He can't speak the language just swear.


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## jodief100 (Oct 19, 2010)

Have they tested the pooch for Cushings Disease?  Weight gain + skin issues are indicative of Cushings.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> Swear in gaelic.  My DH is quite proud he can swear in German and Afrikaans.   He can't speak the language just swear.


I can swear in different accents!  Does that count?


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Have they tested the pooch for Cushings Disease?  Weight gain + skin issues are indicative of Cushings.


No, but I looked into Cushing's recently..  She never vomits, never has accidents in the house, is *fairly* energetic (to be such a fatass), and the hair thing...well, she kinda has _the opposite_ of hair loss.  

I know I just said she started losing hair in big clumps, so that probably doesn't make sense, but that's just the thing...she doesn't shed normally.  Her hair seems to linger and linger and linger and then a whole big bunch of it falls out all at once from a localized area, leaving a big pink bald patch surrounded by a practically impenetrable forest of fur.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 19, 2010)

You still may want to consider diet for your dog. Even though the coat and everything is good, doesn't mean that everything is great going on on the inside. You may want to consider a grain free diet for the dog. There are dog foods out there that are grain free if you aren't interested in the raw diet.


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## freemotion (Oct 19, 2010)

Were she mine, I'd change her diet anyways.  I found a wonderful vet a few years ago who was an interesting mix of standard vet med and holistic.  She told me the first thing she did with new patients (that were not acute) was to put them on a correct diet for three months then re-evaluate.  Usually most, if not all, health problems had disappeared without any other treatment.  She saved one of our cats this way.  She was the fifth vet to see him and we were going to have him put down if there was no dramatic change.  He has not had a single symptom in about 8 years now.

I taught diet to her patients after that, being food-obsessed myself.  I was sort of the nutritionist for her practice while she was in practice in this area.  I've seen some amazing things happen.  The body can balance and heal if given the tools sometimes.

My dog had the same surgery except his miniscus was ok.  He was doing great then three days before his last post-op appt with the surgeon we came home and he was 3-legged lame again.  The knee is stable, so we bring him back in three more weeks to see what the deal is.  It may be a miniscus tear that was tiny and didn't show up.  Another surgery.    The doc's got a kid in Harvard.  I'm paying for a semester, I think.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 19, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> You still may want to consider diet for your dog. Even though the coat and everything is good, doesn't mean that everything is great going on on the inside. You may want to consider a grain free diet for the dog. There are dog foods out there that are grain free if you aren't interested in the raw diet.





			
				freemo said:
			
		

> Were she mine, I'd change her diet anyways.  I found a wonderful vet a few years ago who was an interesting mix of standard vet med and holistic.  She told me the first thing she did with new patients (that were not acute) was to put them on a correct diet for three months then re-evaluate.  Usually most, if not all, health problems had disappeared without any other treatment.  She saved one of our cats this way.  She was the fifth vet to see him and we were going to have him put down if there was no dramatic change.  He has not had a single symptom in about 8 years now.
> 
> I taught diet to her patients after that, being food-obsessed myself.  I was sort of the nutritionist for her practice while she was in practice in this area.  I've seen some amazing things happen.  The body can balance and heal if given the tools sometimes.


I'm familiar with grain-free foods...spent my fair share of cash trying out DVP, TOTW, and a few others on a *very* sensitive white GSD.  None of them had much of a positive impact on her..  Last thing I tried for her was 4-Health, which isn't grain-free per se, but it frankly didn't seem to be any better or worse than any of the others.



			
				freemo said:
			
		

> My dog had the same surgery except his miniscus was ok.  He was doing great then three days before his last post-op appt with the surgeon we came home and he was 3-legged lame again.  The knee is stable, so we bring him back in three more weeks to see what the deal is.  It may be a miniscus tear that was tiny and didn't show up.  Another surgery.    The doc's got a kid in Harvard.  I'm paying for a semester, I think.


Same surgery, as in...TightRope surgery?  Or same surgery as in...surgery for the same injury?  

If you had a series of post-ops after a *very* expensive surgery, my guess is that your pooch probably had the TPLO or TTA done..  The ones where they cut through bones, rotate stuff, attach stuff back together with steel contraptions, etc.?  

We didn't do that...  Considered it, but it was too expensive and my vet actually won't perform either.  He does the TightRope instead and recommends it for most folks because the rehab is easier..  

What they do is just drill two holes at very specific angles through the bones above and below the knee, run high strength "fibertape" through the holes, pull it tight, then anchor both ends of the tape to the inside of the bones..  The part of the tape that's not buried in the bone is on the outer surface of the knee joint and prevents the tibia from pushing forward or rotating...which is what the ACL/CCL normally does.    Sooo, two holes, a piece of fibertape, and two titanium washers, and $1600 later -- VOILA!  He now has no need for an ACL/CCL.  Kinda neat.  

Rehab was still a PITA but he put weight on the knee almost immediately..  If I recall, he hiked his *good* leg to pee and stood there with all his weight on his repaired leg like 4-days out from surgery.  Good to see him get excited and rare up on his hind legs at dinnertime these days.

He had his bad days during rehab, though..  There were times when he'd seem like everything was cool and he was really making good progress, then he'd "toe-touch" for a day or two..  Then he'd be OK...and then he'd act like it was bugging him again.  The key was just keeping him still for weeks...and weeks...and weeks...  :/

I will say this about TightRope, though...it was a little unnerving *after* the surgery to ask the doc if there was any possibility whatsoever that he might break the fibertape and hear the doc say "Oh, no no no......well, I mean.....I guess if there's a dog out there who's powerful enough to break it, it would be HIM, but I really don't think so."

Uhh..


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## freemotion (Oct 19, 2010)

You still might consider raw for your pooch!   Homemade raw, I mean.  I don't trust the safety of commercial mixes.  My dog won't eat them, anyways.

It was an ACL surgery and he used nylon to replace the ligament, so it was probably similar.  My dog is about 28 lbs of muscle and is a poodle, so quite the acrobat.  He managed to NOT use the "bad" leg much at all and even tried to do a handstand to pee since he prefered to stand on the "bad" leg and didn't want to at all.  He tried for a while to fake use it, since he knew that is what I wanted.  Sheesh.  He finally began using it and got to the point of trotting with no discernable lameness most of the time...then this.  He is a weanie though, and once hurt even a little will remember it forever.  He still won't go through a door or gate if it does not allow him to pass without touching even slightly, after having a heart surgery 8.5 years ago!


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 20, 2010)

I also thought of Cushings when I heard the signs.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 20, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> You still might consider raw for your pooch!   Homemade raw, I mean.  I don't trust the safety of commercial mixes.  My dog won't eat them, anyways.


I saw a bag of the frozen raw mix at a highish-end petstore once..  Just a bag of meat w/ peas and carrots and all kinds of stuff like that all chopped up and mixed together.

I kinda thought to myself...ok, now that looks *an awful lot* like good ol' fashioned table scraps.  



> It was an ACL surgery and he used nylon to replace the ligament, so it was probably similar.


That's the "heavy suture" surgery...what they put in there was 80# monofilament..  The fisherfolks among us will recognize that term -- it's high-test fishing line.  

I'm really surprised it cost more than $1600, though..  My vet charges the same labor cost to do the TightRope as they do the heavy suture, since the procedures are very similar..  The TightRope _apparatus_, however, is several hundred bucks by itself, so the overall cost is just that much more expensive than the heavy suture..  I think they said they normally charge about $1200 for a heavy suture..

I also know two guys here at work who had their dogs' ACLs repaired w/ the heavy suture technique at the same vet for about $700.  



> My dog is about 28 lbs of muscle and is a poodle, so quite the acrobat.  He managed to NOT use the "bad" leg much at all and even tried to do a handstand to pee since he prefered to stand on the "bad" leg and didn't want to at all.  He tried for a while to fake use it, since he knew that is what I wanted.  Sheesh.  He finally began using it and got to the point of trotting with no discernable lameness most of the time...then this.  He is a weanie though, and once hurt even a little will remember it forever.  He still won't go through a door or gate if it does not allow him to pass without touching even slightly, after having a heart surgery 8.5 years ago!


You mentioned that the knee was still stable...which means the vet couldn't get a "drawer sign" out of him...which means the monofilament is still there, intact, and doing it's job...which means it's unlikely that he's damaged anything seriously, despite the lameness.

That's a good thing.   

I dunno why I'm even about to ask this, because I'm sure you -- of all people -- are all over it, but I'll ask anyhow...is your pup on glucosamine/chondroitin and fish oil (or some other form of EPA/DHA omega3's)?  The gluco/chondro helps heal connective tissue, while the fish oil is a pretty good natural anti-inflammatory.  My vet highly recommends it, as he said they *will* get arthritis after these kinds of surgeries..  

Matter of fact, Ivan -- at 2 years old -- already had some arthritis in that knee.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 20, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I also thought of Cushings when I heard the signs.


I think we can probably all rest assurd that's one of the things we'll end up testing for, among umpteen other possibles..  :/

I'm gonna have to start mopping floors there for a discount or something..


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## jodief100 (Oct 20, 2010)

My vet thought my Malamutt 'Roi(malamute/shepherd/wolf) *might* have Cushings.  He had severe weight gain, lack of energy and horribly dry skin with lots of *hot* spots.  We took him to a specialist, a doggie internist in Alexandria, Ky who ran several very detailed tests.  I remember we were there all day and they came and took various samples from 'Roi at different points in the test over several hours.  $600 and 2 days later and it was determined he had hypothyroidism and a skin infection not related to the other symptoms.  Antibiotics cleared up the skin condition and the thyroid medication has worked great for him.  

Point being, it took a awhile but we figured it out.  I hope they can help your dog.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 20, 2010)

See, she's never had any kind of skin issues, ear problems, hot spots -- nothing like that.  She's healthy, apart from being morbidly obese and having a carpet coat..  If we can get those things worked out without screwing anything else up, she'll be tip-top.


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## warthog (Oct 20, 2010)

> I dunno why I'm even about to ask this, because I'm sure you -- of all people -- are all over it, but I'll ask anyhow...is your pup on glucosamine/chondroitin and fish oil (or some other form of EPA/DHA omega3's)?  The gluco/chondro helps heal connective tissue, while the fish oil is a pretty good natural anti-inflammatory.  My vet highly recommends it, as he said they *will* get arthritis after these kinds of surgeries..
> 
> Matter of fact, Ivan -- at 2 years old -- already had some arthritis in that knee.


Just for the record one of our dogs Shepherd/Heinz57 x had problems with her back legs since a pup.  Possibly hip displasia .

I had her on fish oil and Glucosamine/chondroitine and it has certainly helped.

Anyhow when I changed vets, she recommended the following.

Glucosamine, chondroitine et MSM 1300 mg (Webber naturals)
Allerderm Efa Caps Hp, high potency fatty acids (Virbac)

She get one a day, and the difference is amazing.

Just thought I would mention it.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 20, 2010)

warthog said:
			
		

> Glucosamine, chondroitine et MSM 1300 mg (Webber naturals)
> Allerderm Efa Caps Hp, high potency fatty acids (Virbac)


I know that MSM is closely related to DMSO..  If I remember correctly, DMSO turns into MSM...or is it vice versa?  

I've never had occasion to read much about DMSO because I've never needed to use it, but I know it's used by vets to treat...uhh...._legitimate ailments_ ....with the point being that it's probably not snakeoil.

I think the Gluco/chondro I use has MSM, but I'm not sure...should probably double-check.  I know the one I use is a triple-strength (which, for whatever reason, is still a 2-a-day formula...is the "regular" stuff SIX A DAY!?) so he gets two a day.  That provides him with 3,000mg of glucosamine and 2,400mg of chondroitin, total.

As for total EPA/DHA, I use a triple-strength fish oil softgel.  And when I say "use," I mean _use and administer_ in the "one for you, one for me" sense....yes, I take the same vitamins my dogs take.  

Each of the fish oil softgels I use contains 900mg of total Omega-3's.  My vet recommended "1500-2000mg" for Ivan (right after saying "He's in the 150 to 200 pound range, so..." which I took to equal 10mg/lb), so he actually gets two triple-strengths a day for 1,800mg total.  He's probably in that 180lb range, so I figure that's about right.

All I know is that he's been doing really well since his surgery, which is when he went on the stuff..


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## warthog (Oct 20, 2010)

If he is doing great on what he's getting, that's what matters, as the saying goes 'if it's not broken don't fix it'.

You taking the same as your dog, hope Mrs CM is taking note in case you start barking.


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## freemotion (Oct 20, 2010)

Here is the short version of one of my lectures on these supplements:

My dog has been on a glucosamine supp for some time now, one with antioxidants that are extremely anti-inflammatory.  A recent study published in "Angiology" (ask your local cardiologist...for people  ) resulted in fall-off-your-lab-stool improvements in inflammatory markers in a very short time, so my dog gets a triple dose!  He has heart issues....

Chondroitin is not a useful supplement but is thrown in many products because people think it is useful due to OLD research.   It is not very bio-available but the body will make it with the right building blocks, including glucosamine.  It is in the "won't hurt, won't help" category.  

Supplementary Omega III's are not as necessary on a grain-free and veg oil free diet.  Fat from pastured animal products is rich in Omega III's, like beef, egg yolks, full-fat dairy from pastured animals.  My dog gets these daily (except the beef, like us, that is eaten on occasion....for now!)  If there is any grain or veg oil in the diet, a LOT of Omega III's are needed to balance this out.  Like the typical American diet. 

To get a useful Omega III supplement, you need to find one that is from fish oil and has NO fillers, especially soy or veg oil...NONE.  You need to look for the combined total of the EPA and the DHA on the label, regardless of the total Omega III oils.  The average person in great health on a fairly clean diet needs a combined total of 1000 mg daily of EPA and DHA.  Someone treating inflammation needs to start with 3000 mg.  Adjust for your size dog.

Sometimes when you really know how to read the label, the bargain is not such a bargain.  But there are a lot of good Omega III supplements on the market.  And a lot of rip-offs.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 21, 2010)

freemo said:
			
		

> My dog has been on a glucosamine supp for some time now, one with antioxidants that are extremely anti-inflammatory.  A recent study published in "Angiology" (ask your local cardiologist...for people  ) resulted in fall-off-your-lab-stool improvements in inflammatory markers in a very short time, so my dog gets a triple dose!  He has heart issues....


And the name of that supplement would be...what?





			
				freemo said:
			
		

> To get a useful Omega III supplement, you need to find one that is from fish oil and has NO fillers, especially soy or veg oil...NONE.  You need to look for the combined total of the EPA and the DHA on the label, regardless of the total Omega III oils.  The average person in great health on a fairly clean diet needs a combined total of 1000 mg daily of EPA and DHA.  Someone treating inflammation needs to start with 3000 mg.


The ones I use are 900mg total EPA/DHA in a...1200mg gelcap?  I think it's 1200mg, but it might be 1500mg.  He gets two of those, based on the vet's recommendation.

FWIW, my vet told me exactly the same thing -- don't just look at the total mg size of the pill, but the total EPA/DHA..  That's how I came to buy the triple-strength ones.  





			
				freemo said:
			
		

> Adjust for your size dog.


Yeah, he's basically human sized.


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## freemotion (Oct 21, 2010)

Wow, a vet knows about EPA/DHA!!!  Why does that not surprise me when most MD's don't know?  (I test 'em when I have to go in for anything or am there with a family member...."So, doc, what about supplements?  Should Dad get off any of his supps post-op?  Anything that will be particularly useful?" {Doc shuffles feet nervously.....}  )

I'd easily try that big brute on 3 per day if needed, or more, to bowel tolerance.

The supp study mentioned in "Angiology" is OPC-3 by nutraMetrix and the one my dog gets is the pet version made by the parent company due to demand from distributors, including myself, for a formula that pets would take more readily, and it is called "Pet Health OPC's with Glucosamine."  They also make a multi that is quite nice.  The systemic anti-inflammatory effects and the improvement in blood flow have many interesting side effects.  One of my dogs had NO symptoms of OCD when on it, when I've gotten lazy in the past (no more, I learned my lesson) he snaps at phantom flies.  The same dog lost interest in eating his weight daily in horse poop when I added the multi.  It comes in a powder and can go on their food.  Since I feed mainly raw chicken backs, it makes a mess, so I mix it in peanut butter and give them a spoonful or three each night, making for very happy pooches.

My own doctor got me on the OPC-3 years ago and I started giving it to my pets after getting great results myself.  I'm one of the loud voices that the company heard often to make a canine/feline version.  I gave some of mine to a goat once who went three-legged lame for a couple of weeks and the vet was mystified ($330 later :/ ).  A friend said, "Why haven't you tried some of that natural stuff you talk about?" and I went DUH and gave her a triple dose morning and night.  By the second day she was bearing weight and by the third day you couldn't tell which leg it was.  Goofy goat.

Shameless commerce section of this post:  I distribute both product lines now through my own practice.  Please contact me rather than doing a random google search, sheesh!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 22, 2010)

> Wow, a vet knows about EPA/DHA!!!  Why does that not surprise me when most MD's don't know?  (I test 'em when I have to go in for anything or am there with a family member...."So, doc, what about supplements?  Should Dad get off any of his supps post-op?  Anything that will be particularly useful?" {Doc shuffles feet nervously.....}  )


This particular vet (Dr. T) is good...really, really good.  He's the one I consider to be my main surgery guy and primary dog vet, whereas the other vet (Dr. W, the one who called me back the other night) is my backup dog vet and primary goat vet.  

There are actually 5 vets at this practice..  You wouldn't know it from the size of the building, though, as you can barely get 5 patients in the waiting room.    They're open late on weeknights now, plus they offer emergency services w/ on-call vets and techs 24/7, etc.  It's a very good clinic -- I'm fortunate.  



> I'd easily try that big brute on 3 per day if needed, or more, to bowel tolerance.


I've actually considered bumping myself up to 2/day..  I'm 6'1" 245-250lbs, yet my dosage -- aka, the 'adult dosage' -- is supposed to be the same as someone who's 5'1" 115lbs?  Nawp..  Can't be right, ya know?

I'm also going to bump Mischa up to 2, and I'd tinkered with the idea of bumping Ivan to 3 (he gets 2 in the evening...one more in the morning wouldn't hurt) so that would be 7/day going out of a 60ct bottle that costs me $9.  That would be like $32/mo -- _on fish oil._ 





> ..."Pet Health OPC's with Glucosamine."...
> ...
> Shameless commerce section of this post:  I distribute both product lines now through my own practice.  Please contact me rather than doing a random google search, sheesh!


Cool!  I just found some on Amazon and bought it!

J/K.  

Ok, so I'm contacting you...  ...this would be a *replacement* for the 3x-strength fish oil I'm using now, right?  Ivan gets 2/day right now so it's costing me $9/mo to supplement him at 1800mg/day of total EPA/DHA..  

How does the Pet Health OPC product stack up to that in terms of cost?

Reason is, I'm broke, and I'm getting broker by the day.


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## jodief100 (Oct 22, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Reason is, I'm broke, and I'm getting broker by the day.


It is kinda like when you first buy a house everyone says you are "house poor".  You are "Goat and Dog poor"   In this economy that may be the better investment.  You get lots of love out of it.


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## freemotion (Oct 22, 2010)

I use a multi for maintenance but everything else I use, just about, is for treatment.  So we use a lot of supps here but rarely ever use pharmaceuticals.  Side effects of supplements are that other health concerns tend to go away, rather than new ones being created as with pharmaceuticals!  The use of certain supplements ALONG WITH certain pharmaceuticals can also reduce the amount and time frame of the meds, which can also reduce potential nasty side effects.

Anyhoo, the Pet Health OPCs with Glucosamine is $20.95 (plus shipping) for "90 servings."  A serving has 500 mg of glucosamine plus a variety of the OPCs.  My 28 lb poodle was recently upped to 1.5-2 scoops although the recommended dose is about a scoop for his size.  My 18 lb healthy dog gets .5-1 scoop per day.  My old, arthritic cats get .5 scoops per day each, but I try to sneak it up to 1 each as they get older.  It really makes a huge difference in their ability to jump up on things without missing and falling as they get old. 

Shipping is $7.50 minimum, then 7.5% after the first $100.  If you can combine an order with someone (get your vets to try it, then they can distribute it, then you won't have to pay shipping) you can save on shipping.  

Here is the link:  http://www.marketamerica.com/index.cfm?action=shopping.wpGoShopProducts&skuID=5602


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## freemotion (Oct 22, 2010)

Oh, yeah, up your own Omega III use.  I'd do double.  Consider the average adult serving to be for an adult of 150 lbs.

As for the dogs, I'd only replace the fish oil with the PH OPC's if the dogs are grain-free and get another source, which is difficult for most people to do.  You can most likely reduce it by adding the OPCs, though.  You may be able to reduce any meds they are on (rimadyl?) or at the very least, make these meds more effective.  

For some very interesting studies on what OPC's can do, check out http://www.pycnogenol.com/health/health_research_library.php  Look at the pdf on the research studies ("Download full bibliography").  This is the company that makes the pine bark extract.  They are based in Sweden and are not under the FDA's rules that don't allow a company to directly link a health concern with a treatment with a supplement, so the connection is clearly made on the site.  It is very technical, you will love it.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 22, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I use a multi for maintenance but everything else I use, just about, is for treatment.  So we use a lot of supps here but rarely ever use pharmaceuticals.  Side effects of supplements are that other health concerns tend to go away, rather than new ones being created as with pharmaceuticals!  The use of certain supplements ALONG WITH certain pharmaceuticals can also reduce the amount and time frame of the meds, which can also reduce potential nasty side effects.


Makes sense.  



> Anyhoo, the Pet Health OPCs with Glucosamine is $20.95 (plus shipping) for "90 servings."  A serving has 500 mg of glucosamine plus a variety of the OPCs.


Ok, so let's see..  He's getting 1800mg/day now, so that would require 3.6 scoops/day to match what he's currently getting..  A container would last him 25 days at that rate.

(20.95 + 7.50) / 25 = 1.138..  (1.138 * 365) / 12 = 34.61..  $34.61 > $9.00 = me being too broke to afford good supplements.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 22, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> Oh, yeah, up your own Omega III use.  I'd do double.  Consider the average adult serving to be for an adult of 150 lbs.


I'll do that, and I'll probably put Ivan on 3/day, and Mischa on 2/day.  



> As for the dogs, I'd only replace the fish oil with the PH OPC's if the dogs are grain-free and get another source, which is difficult for most people to do.  You can most likely reduce it by adding the OPCs, though.  You may be able to reduce any meds they are on (rimadyl?) or at the very least, make these meds more effective.


He's not on anything...yet.  He's only 2-1/2 years old, though.  If he manages not to bloat and die young like his daddy and grandaddy (  ), he *might* make 8 years -- but that's about the most he'll get.  

My guess is he'll need a daily NSAID by 5, at the very latest.  



> For some very interesting studies on what OPC's can do, check out http://www.pycnogenol.com/health/health_research_library.php  Look at the pdf on the research studies ("Download full bibliography").  This is the company that makes the pine bark extract.  They are based in Sweden and are not under the FDA's rules that don't allow a company to directly link a health concern with a treatment with a supplement, so the connection is clearly made on the site.  It is very technical, you will love it.


Me?  Interested in studies?  Why would you think I'd wanna do THAT?



(...yes...I'll do that...thanks!... )


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## freemotion (Oct 22, 2010)

Remember, there is no such thing as a "one trick pony."  Both you and your pooch would do better with a variety of natural anti-inflammatory supplements than lots of one....I'd reduce the fish oil to add smaller amounts of the antioxidants.  With all of that, you may be able to give less of the PH OPCs&G (the name is too darn long!) and get a more complete defense.

Read the studies.


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## freemotion (Oct 22, 2010)

Hey, maybe I should use pelleted goat wormer, as it is cheaper than the good stuff! 



Sorry, couldn't resist.


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