# weanign goats, vet's advice



## FarmerDenise (May 30, 2010)

I just found out from our vet, who also does 4H, that it is better for goats to stay on milk for at least 12 weeks. He said that the 8 -10 weak weaning is driven by large scale agriculture and is not neccessarily for optimum health for the baby. 
He has his 4H kids feed milk to their goats, sheep and calves for about 4 months. He has even put weaned babies back on milk. 

He thinks they are healthier and in case they go off their feed, they will usually still take the milk.

He also stated that at the time of weaning, the babies will experiment more with other foodstuff, and can get sick from it. They are looking for something to substitue for the milk feeding. Like in eating something poisonous. Especially bottle babies, since they don't have a momma to teach them what to eat and not to eat. He said goats are the worst.

One of our baby goats (Blossom) is in the hospital now, she is very sick. If I had know this before, I would not have been weaning her and we might have prevented this incident.

We are putting our goats back on their former schedule of milk. Flower was happy to get her full bottle and is resting quietly.


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## DonnaBelle (May 30, 2010)

Well, number 1, you are lucky you have a vet that knows something about goats.

Here's hoping all will be well with your babies.  I too have 7 week old kids who are still nursing.  I give them a little grain, and they have free access to alfalfa hay and brouse.  

We are getting about a quart of milk in the morning and about a half quart in the evenings, plenty for DH and myself.

I get the most pleasure from watching my little goatie babies play on the new gym set we made from a large telephone cable spool and some boards, they are a hoot.  They like to run from the barn to the play set, run across all in a line, then back to the barn.  I can see them from my kitchen window,  I love my little goaties!!

DonnaBelle


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## ()relics (May 30, 2010)

the best age to wean would be in the 60 to 100 day range, if the kid is being dam raised.  If a creep feed is available the kid will begin to supplement their daily milk intake with the offered feed concentrate long before the weaning age. 
  After reading your post, I noticed that nowhere in it was the well-being of the dam considered.  After 80 or so days a kid really starts to deplete the does stored resources, and unless you are "very heavily feeding" a doe will begin to lose condition quickly.  Left unweaned for 4 months the doe would be horribly stressed and a prime candidate for health problems of her own.  Granted the kid may enjoy the long weaning periods but consider the doe.  She will need to be brought back into shape both nutritionally and healthwise before she will be able to be rebred.    A vet is trained to "fix" animals not feed them, that would be a nutritionist job....JMO...again this is based on a dam raised kid, if you are bottle feeding the kid, I guess you could continue forever if you liked with no "ill effects" to the kid, except they would never develop a rumen....again JMO


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## mossyStone (May 30, 2010)

I  bottle feed my babies till 5 mos or so,  By the time we get to that age it's one 20 oz bottle at night, my kids are robust and happy.. I dont like to rush them, they have access to free choice Alfalfa hay and mim mix, fresh water and 3 acres of goodies to find and eat..This works for me I work from home and have plenty of time to take bottles down to them and lots of milk... 

Mossy Stone Farm


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## FarmerDenise (May 30, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> the best age to wean would be in the 60 to 100 day range, if the kid is being dam raised.  If a creep feed is available the kid will begin to supplement their daily milk intake with the offered feed concentrate long before the weaning age.
> After reading your post, I noticed that nowhere in it was the well-being of the dam considered.  After 80 or so days a kid really starts to deplete the does stored resources, and unless you are "very heavily feeding" a doe will begin to lose condition quickly.  Left unweaned for 4 months the doe would be horribly stressed and a prime candidate for health problems of her own.  Granted the kid may enjoy the long weaning periods but consider the doe.  She will need to be brought back into shape both nutritionally and healthwise before she will be able to be rebred.    A vet is trained to "fix" animals not feed them, that would be a nutritionist job....JMO...again this is based on a dam raised kid, if you are bottle feeding the kid, I guess you could continue forever if you liked with no "ill effects" to the kid, except they would never develop a rumen....again JMO


No where in my post does it suggest to feed the baby goats milk only. The vet recommended that especially with bottle babies that they be fed their bottles til at least 12 weeks. That does not say they shouldn't be getting grain and hay. A doe or cow will usually push the baby away, when it is old enough to be on it's own. There are no doubt times when human intervention is needed, but animals have survived without human interference for eons.
No-one has to seperate a baby deer from it's mother, it happens. I am sure the same goes for goats etc.

I have my goats for milk for personal consumption and for pets. I am not going to worry about high milk production. With two goats I am sure I will have enough milk for my families needs without having to push my goats. I will take my vets advice. Especially since he has goats of his own and does 4H.


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## haviris (May 30, 2010)

I agree w/ the vet. I rarely wean keeper kids before 12 weeks. I do often wean sell kids earlier (10 weeks) and yes it's for selfish reason, the new owners want to bring their kids home, I understand that, but I also don't let the kid go unless I'm sure they are ready (and I've never had a doe drug down by her kids, if it's more then I think she can handle I'll pull and bottle feed).


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## ()relics (May 30, 2010)

FarmerDenise said:
			
		

> No-one has to seperate a baby deer from it's mother, it happens. I am sure the same goes for goats etc.
> 
> ....


Just an FYI...a fawn leaves its mother because the doe dries up and doesn't produce any more milk _because_ she doesn't have access to a feed concentrate and her body begins degrade from the added strain of lactation....Calves have to be seperated when they are weaned or they will continue to nurse which keeps the cow from recycling for the next years calf.  A goat usually has adequate feed provided and will continue to lactate even as it body condition degrades.....Better check the math...60 - 100 days = 9- 14 weeks which also = 2 - 3+ months...


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## chels24 (May 30, 2010)

No offense ()relics but your post came across kind of rude.

Anyway, I have had goats for several years now and I've never had a problem with a doe losing condition. My does don't kid until late spring so they have lots of pasture. I also make sure they have mineral at all times, so maybe that helps. I know a lot of other breeders who wait until 12 weeks to wean especially doelings. 
To each their own!


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## freemotion (May 31, 2010)

Thanks FD, this confirms what my instincts have been telling me!  I have been waffling, but now I will keep them both going at least three months.

I really don't see how the doe can go down more than if someone milked her twice a day for a year or more.....Yes, they can lose condition, but they will if people are milking them, too.  Of course, they can be fed more easily as individuals on the milking stand.


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## Roll farms (May 31, 2010)

I never wean before 12 weeks, and this year the keeper girls got 14-15 weeks worth (just one bottle a day) b/c I wanted to see how they did.

I used a weight tape on 4 kids mid May.
2-December kids - bottle raised, 81 and 83#
1-January kid - bottle raised, 65#
1-January kid - dam reared, 51#  (bought from breeder, weaned at 3 mos.)

All are % Boers.

I think it depends on the breed of the goat, as far as how an extended lactation will affect them.

Dairy goats are 'built' to produce / lactate long term, so after the first couple of months of adjustment, providing they get enough grain, they will build back up to good condition AND produce w/out it effecting them.

Boers / pygmies / Kikos, etc. aren't 'built' to produce long term, so I can see how, over time, too long of a lactation could wear them down if not given supplementation.

With dairy goats, we *know* we have to feed them well to get the milk, since the milk is the whole point.

With meat goats, the purpose *should* be to get the most meat for the least $ input possible (that's mho, btw...) so, you feed the moms long enough to get kids weaned, then put them on pasture asap to fatten everyone up, rather than keep dumping grain at them.

I think it's just different points of view (meat vs. dairy), beef cattle aren't raised / fed the same as dairy cattle.


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## aggieterpkatie (May 31, 2010)

I wean my lambs and kids at 8 weeks.  I've never seen any ill-effects from weaning then, and I've weaned some big lambs at that age.  The lambs/kids' rumens are fully functioning at that point, and feeding grain and hay will provide them with the proper nutrition they need.  You can wait to wean them, but like it's been mentioned before, it makes more economical sense to dry the dam up and feed the lamb/kid.  Yes, my animals are my "pets" but they're also earning their keep.  I don't have the money to waste on feeding the dam extra food so the kids/lambs can nurse longer than needed. JMO.  

And I have NEVER seen a sheep or goat wean their lambs/kids on their own.  Yes, they may walk away but I've never seen them totally stop the kid from nursing.  I'm sorry, but it's rather hard for them to get away when they're typically confined in a small area (compared to that of a deer).  Heck, I weaned my lambs at 8 weeks.  Separated them from mom for 2 weeks.  She dried up, I sold the ewe lamb, and the ram lamb went back out on pasture with mom.  He didn't do it for a long time, but now he still tries to nurse now and then.  I'm not worried about it because she's dry and he can't be getting much of anything at all.  He'll be separated as soon as I build a pen for him and my buck, but the ewe sure isn't trying to stop him from nursing.  The ram lamb is now almost 4 months old and over half the size of the ewe.


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## chubbydog811 (May 31, 2010)

I agree with aggieterpkatie. Although that 10-12 weeks is recommended, I wean mine at 8 weeks. Economically, it is more efficient - mine are dairy goats, and unless I can get the milk from them, I dont really see the point of them. They are my pets, but they need to help pay for themselves also. 
Dam raised kids get really rough on the dam's udder as they get older... For my doe, being a dairy that I was planning on milking, I didn't want the kid injuring the udder. 
It is even less efficient if you need to keep them on the dam for 3-4 months if you are planning on selling them. Bottle babies arent as bad selling wise, they just take milk that could be going into your food or paying for goat feed if you sell it.

I know for a smaller herd (under 5) it might be easier to wean them late, but when you have 10 or more does, that gets a bit crazy! 

Anyway, everyone has their own view about it...It's one of those things where really everyone is right in their own.


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## babsbag (Jun 1, 2010)

Last year I had my first kids born and they were dam raised. One of the kids nursed until she was about 7 months old. I would milk once a day and she took the rest. Mom was well fed and it didn't seem to bother her condition as I would have taken the milk if the little darling kid had left it for me.  Finally when I quit milking in December she decided she had enough of it and weaned her kid. 

Since I don't have seperate long term pasture or pens for my goats I really have to just leave it up to mom to decide when enough is enough. I do seperate them at night starting at about 1 month and I only milk once a day, in the morning. The kids get the rest.

This is really just a hobby for me and I do not depend on the milk. It is just a bonus of having some real fun animals.


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## Beekissed (Jun 2, 2010)

I'll be trying self-weaning with my sheep and will see how things go along....I think one would have to cull their herd for good mothering instincts in order to do this effectively.  

I was reading a blog about someone doing this with cattle and they had a cow that rejected her new calf in favor of the older one.  

As much as possible, I would like to raise my sheep without too much interference in their natural cycles and behaviors.  

I guess its one of those things where you try it to see if its possible before you take the word of someone who doesn't know your flock, your pasture, your world.  Then, if it doesn't work out like you planned, you adjust your methods, cull for this trait, etc.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 2, 2010)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I'll be trying self-weaning with my sheep and will see how things go along....I think one would have to cull their herd for good mothering instincts in order to do this effectively.
> 
> I was reading a blog about someone doing this with cattle and they had a cow that rejected her new calf in favor of the older one.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'd be really hesitant to cull for a trait like not self-weaning you kids/lambs.  IMO, you WANT a good mother, one that wants to be around her kids/lambs and wants to nurse them.  I think it'd be real easy to cull the good mothers out just because *most* mothers don't want to wean.  It's super easy to wean by separating, but not so easy to convince a mother to take care of her lambs/kids.  

I'm curious to see how yours do.


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## babsbag (Jun 3, 2010)

My doe that had the kid nursing for 7 months had twins about a month ago and she only wants to let one nurse. I have to hold her and literally stand between her and the baby so it can nurse. The kid has learned to hit mom while she has her head in the grain bucket. She also hits on her aunties when they are eating.

When my small herd is out lounging in the pasture all the does are with their kids, accept her. She hangs with her yearling kid and pretty much ignores her new kids. She will call to them, and gets a little stressed when I lock the little buckling up away from her, but she clearly prefers last year's kid to this year's.

I wonder if that is because she nursed for so long.

DH told me a few months ago that he saw a cow with a nursing calf, and the calf had a nursing calf on her. Talk about self-weaning not working. 
I was half-way expecting that with my goat.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 3, 2010)

babsbag said:
			
		

> DH told me a few months ago that he saw a cow with a nursing calf, and the calf had a nursing calf on her. Talk about self-weaning not working.
> I was half-way expecting that with my goat.


That's another thing to think about, especially with dairy animals. YOu don't want the adults stealing milk!  That would stink.


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## glenolam (Jun 3, 2010)

I'm jumping in here way late, but I've been keeping up with the posts and decided to chime in...

I have two 8 wks old kids who are being weaned by their mother right now.  I notice that when they try to nurse she kicks them away or walks off.  She might let them get a sip and that's that.  The girls are eating grain, hay, water, minerals, etc., just like the others.

Last year the same doe had her wether and I let her wean him herself and he nursed until he was 7 mos old!  I wasn't milking her at the time so she was only supplying enough for him.  She definitely didn't seem to want to push him off at all - not like she is pushing the girls off.

Her condition never failed or got bad when she let her wether nurse that long.  And she's in great condition with her twins, but I feed her 3 1/2 cups of grain so she'll stay "beefed" up (excuse the expression - I just mean I don't want her to loose any weight or condition).

I will wean the girls this weekend at 8 1/2 wks old because I am confident they are OK with everything they've been eating (with one exception that you can read up on another post).  I would like to have more milk per day and with twins on her as well as me I'm afraid that will cause her health to go downhill.

IMO - it's probably like brestfeeding your own babies.  Some people say 6 weeks and switch to formula, some say 6 months - I had a friend who nursed her daughter until she was 18 mos old!  It's all preference and gut feelings, I guess.


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## Beekissed (Jun 3, 2010)

I've known people who breast fed clear up past 2-3 years of age!  Even knew one who was still getting out a breast for a 6 year old...he would stand next to the couch and nurse....   

Talk about emotional scarring....  

I'm wondering if one could let lambs or kids nurse and only wean about a month before new lambs are born.  Sort of like the dry off period for dairy cattle.  This would give those lambs a real good start in life for up to 6-12 months.  If the ewe hadn't self-weaned in that time, it would be a good time to do some line weaning and letting Mom get in condition before new lambs were born.  

I think this would give the ewe ample time to self-wean or not, give the lamb ample milk for good growth and bonding time and still not risk stories like the previous posts.  

Sound reasonable?


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 3, 2010)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> I've known people who breast fed clear up past 2-3 years of age!  Even knew one who was still getting out a breast for a 6 year old...he would stand next to the couch and nurse....
> 
> Talk about emotional scarring....
> 
> ...


I think that sounds like a plan!  Maybe make it 2 months prior to lambing.  It's cutting it close leaving only a month.  The last month is when the fetus(es) really start growing.  I'd leave a month to get her in condition before the last month of gestation.  If she's in poor condition only a month prior, it opens up the door for issues like hypocalcemia.


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## Ariel301 (Jun 9, 2010)

I wean mine at 8 weeks old and don't see any problems. My neighbor bottle feeds her doelings until 4 months, and her bucks until 3 months. Her kids are really chunky compared to mine, but mine do fine. I can't really let mine go that long or I would have no milk for myself, unfortunately.

Here is how I do it. For the first two weeks, I let the dam keep her kids and they get all the milk. At two weeks old, all the kids will go into a pen next to the does, so they can see their moms, and I have lots of fun things for them to play on in their pen, plus free access to water, hay, grain, and minerals. They start with just a few hours apart per day, increasing slowly. I usually only milk my does in the evening, so I will put the kids in their playground pen in the morning, and give them back to the moms after I milk, so they can nurse all they like until morning. Then at 8 weeks old, I just "forget" to let them back with their moms. There is usually very little fuss over it. 

I don't think all dairy does will wean their kids on their own. I have one doe who loves babies so much that she will nurse any kids, not just her own. If she starts getting really full, she will walk along the fence to the kid pen, calling them and trying to shove her udder through the fence to feed them. I also have a young doe that did not wean well. Her dam would not wean her at all. When I took the doeling away completely, the doe would scream at the top of her lungs all day and all night for weeks. I separated them for months, then after the doeling was bred that fall, I put her back in the doe pen. She went straight back to nursing! I ended up selling that doe's dam, and now, after having her own kid, she still tries to nurse on my other does. If she sees babies nursing, she runs under the doe trying to get milk with the kids. And she nurses on herself now when she is in milk. I have to keep a muzzle on her between milkings so she will not drain herself and every doe in the pen.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 10, 2010)

Your Vet is absolutely correct!  12 weeks is optimum, relative to growth rate and nutrition.  Too long on milk and the goat can have calcium related problems, not long enough on milk and the kids growth can be slow, resulting in later freshening for does or later breeding ability for bucks.  It is like saying you feed your buck grain all of the time and never had a problem with urinary calculi, but keep doing it and eventually it will bite you and kill your goat.  Why play the odds when someone has already done the math for you!

Chris


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