# Newbie with some questions



## allergymama (May 16, 2016)

Hi, I've been lurking for a while and read as much as I can get my hands on but I have some questions.

I've always used Storey's guides for the rest of our animals and found them to be unfailingly helpful and informative.  I am struggling a little bit with the Rabbit one and I guess my questions are growing out of there:

1. He feeds all his rabbits pellets with antibiotics.  Part of our decision to do rabbits (and everything else we are doing) is to get away from the use of chemicals and antibiotics.  Is this necessary in rabbits?  I know it's not recommended to start chickens without medicated feed. Is this true of rabbits, too? How common are his list of "common" ailments (like coccidiosis)? We will have a small herd (just enough to supplement our other meats: venison, duck, etc.)

2. He recommends no time for them to forage on their own.  Again, we are doing this small and could easily build a space for them to have some ground time, but don't want to introduce problems into the herd if that will do so. What are others doing? Are others just cutting their own "forage" or "treats" and giving some, or do they actually get "ground time"?

3. He recommends no cross breeds. I have read several people on here that seem to have great success with cross bred rabbits. We are not planning on selling breeding stock. This is strictly for meat for ourselves and perhaps some extended family depending on litter sizes. In any other animal, mutts usually are better producers and healthier in general. He says "don't" but never elaborates why other than that you don't know what you will get (which, I guess I could argue was true of purebreds, too)

4. Since we are just getting started, we want to do this right.  I've read that Bass Equipment has great stuff and I have looked at their site, but what would your ideal recommendations for cage sizes be? I've seen them all over the map. We are planning on NZ or Californians (or crosses?), depending on what we can find within a reasonable distance from our home. My initial inclination is 24x24 for 2 does, 20x20 for one buck and one 30x30 for grow outs? Is that enough to get us started?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me!


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## Latestarter (May 18, 2016)

I have seen many folks swear by Storey's guides and about as many swear at/about them... IMHO there are lots of ways that can and do "work" and not all will on any given situation and not all are right for every person. Tagging some folks who might help:

@Bunnylady @Samantha drawz @Pastor Dave @Hens and Roos @animalmom @LukeMeister @Shorty @promiseacres and so many others...


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## chiques chicks (May 18, 2016)

Nothing wrong with cross breeds, IMO. His guide is more toward raising for money, yes, I have it and have read it.

I like bass cages. I use 30x30 for bucks, 36x30 for does. NZ and Californians need that much space. I don't put mine on the ground, I don't have time. I had a couple get out of some cheap cages and they did well in the yard until I caught them a month later.

I feed pellets and Timothy hay. In the summer I supplement with various weeds from known pesticide/herbicides free area. Right now the raise a ruckus if I don't have them for them.

In the years, I've never tested them for anything.

I don't use medicated feed for my chicks, poults, or quail either, btw, some breeds it can cause growth issues. My rabbit pellets aren't marked medicated, but may be. I do use higher protien for pregnant and laceration does. I use Mantra, because it's what's easily available for me.

I'm not an expert, just raising food to survive. I make lots of mistakes.


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## animalmom (May 18, 2016)

Antibiotics for rabbits are not needed on a daily basis, period.  I've been raising rabbits for meat for 8 years and have not seen cocci rear its head in my herd.  You want to be aware of medical problems that could occur in your rabbitry, just like you want to be aware of childhood diseases that could hit your children.  

Rabbits do not need play time on the ground.  They do perfectly fine in a cage.  Really.  Putting rabbits on the ground does open you operation up to diseases and internal worms so why put your rabbits in harm's way?

Rabbits do need room in their cages to hop around, move around, stretch, etc.  I have California/New Zealand/Production White crosses so they are good sized rabbits and the size cages that @chiques chicks list are good.  The larger your cage per rabbit the better, but don't go small.  You and your rabbit will come to really not like the small cage.

You want to make sure your cages are at least 18" for large rabbits.  

Go with cages you put together with "j-clamps" as I have found the plastic clips don't stay in place.

Bass is a good company.  I've dealt with them several times, including asking them to make me nesting boxes that are larger than they stock.  They have a good "can do" attitude.  Another good company that I have dealt with is KW Cages (kwcages.com).  

Nothing wrong with crosses and if you are going to put all the kits in the freezer you are double good to go with crosses.  Whenever you get ready to bring in new stock to boost your gene pool then you want to look at what that rabbit will bring to your dinner table: longer loin, thicker thighs.  As with any livestock be prepared to quarantine any new rabbit for at least 2 weeks and 30 days is better before introducing the rabbit into your rabbitry... in other words keep the newby out of your rabbitry until you are sure it is healthy. 

Supplementing your rabbits with weeds, garden trimmings and goodies is fine as long as you are not relying on these items to provide your main nutrition.  Domestic rabbits are not wild rabbits and may survive on nothing but what you find for them in the wild, nevertheless they will not thrive.

Whatever you read, and bless you for doing research before you buy, please keep in mind where you live versus where the author lives.  I read one book that said rabbits need light, the more light the better.  While this is basically true, what works for light in Vermont doesn't work for light in Texas.  Keep in mind where your rabbits will live and give them shade, access to cooling breezes in the summer, and protection from cold winds in the winter.

Ask questions.  Keep asking until you understand the answer.  Never take "everybody knows that" or "everybody does that" ever for an answer.

Join American Rabbit Breeders Association (arba.net) if for no other reason than to get their magazine.  ARBA does concentrate on show rabbits, but their articles on breeding and especially health apply to all breeds.  

Good luck with your plans.  Your family will benefit from your choices, as well as your garden!


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## micah wotring (May 18, 2016)

My sister has several rabbits(All Crosses) and she never gives them any antibiotics.

Just hay, grass, and our home grown, non-GMO corn.

Everybody's situations are different but that's what she does.

Anyway, Hope you have success with your rabbits.

MW


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## allergymama (May 18, 2016)

Thanks everybody! I am definitely a "ducks in a row" person (which is hilarious because I couldn't get our flock in a row to save my life!) So I like to read everything I can get my hands on before starting a new project. I am glad to hear the recommendations and larger cages they seemed a little small to me. And on to more research!!


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## allergymama (May 19, 2016)

More questions:
1. The modular cages that I see can be lined up with no space in between. Is this wise? (seems that fighting could be an issue even through the wire)

2. What do you use for feeding? Those "auto feeders" (the ones from Bass) seem pretty cool, but I wonder if they are worth the price. And as an aside, do those auto feeders work with any cage? Like the ones recommended from KW Cages?

3. What do you use for watering? Anyone try the auto waterers for small scale? (I'm thinking that if we are gone for a day we won't have to worry so much. We fill a pool with water and leave it in their night pen for the ducks & geese when we are going to be gone for 24 hours)

4. Light. We are in the thumb of Michigan. I have a detached garage with pines on the east side.  I can't decide whether to worry more about the cold or the heat. (I had some rabbits die from the heat on me when I was a little kid.) South facing gets lots of sun all year round and faces away from the house would be warmer in winter. North side faces the house and would get little direct sun and be cooler in summer. Conceivably, we could hollow out some of the branches on those pine trees and put them on the east side, but they would get no sun there either. They will be outside this garage, but we will build kind of a "lean to" around them. Could add a heat lamp in the winter. Is this necessary? (the rabbits I had growing up were outside and we didn't heat, but after reading Storey, now I'm worried. Ugh!)

5. Chiques Chicks recommends 36x30 for does. Is this big enough for them to have kits in with them, too?

Thanks everybody!


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## chiques chicks (May 20, 2016)

1. I have 1½"between my hanging cages to be safe.

2. Screen bottom j-feeders with the space for hay, I forget the name. Should be adaptable to most wire cages.

3. I've been using horizontal brass nipples in threaded t fittings made for them for two or three years. I drain it and use bottles in freezing weather.

4. Light doesn't need to be direct sun. Shader light is better in my opinion. And avoid the wind, especially in winter.

5. I use that size and separate when weaned. My nest boxes are 12x18. That means extra cages for grow out.

Everyone figures out what works for them.


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## animalmom (May 20, 2016)

My cages are side to side, in other words one cage shares a wall or two with other cages and I have no signs of fighting through the common wall.

I've used the "J" feeder with the screened bottom and like it very much.  In my current set up I'm using clip on cups because I didn't want to cut out the wire to insert the "J" feeder.  Cups have to be watched more closely as there is no place for the "fines," the little scraps and pellet dust from the feed to go so you have to empty it every so often -- no big deal.

I use hanging bottles, one per cage, and have thought about going to a pressurized nipple system, but that's as far as I get... just thinking about it.  I don't have a problem with the bottles as they are 32 ounces which is enough to go two days in cool temps but not in the heat.  I keep a second set of bottles for the winter so I can bring the rabbits warm water in the mornings and keep an eye out for frozen bottles.

Heat is much more a problem for rabbits than cold.  I have my rabbitry set up in a 3-sided barn.  It is set up to face away from the direction of bad weather i.e. the back of the barn faces NorthWest as that is the direction the bad weather (storms/cold) comes from.  Granted I'm in Texas nevertheless we do have freezing temps in the winter... just not as bad as places further north.  I do not use a heat lamp with the rabbits.  As long as the cold does not blow on them the rabbits are fine.  Really!  In the winter I do put up a tarp around the cages to block the wind.  In the summer I move the tarp to the front of the barn and block the morning sun as that heats up the barn very fast.  I also have two fans in the barn to keep the air moving on hot days.  I also, keep in mind again that I'm in Texas and 100 degree summers are common, have a misting system at the front of the barn that cools the air coming in.  This system does not wet the rabbits as that would not be good for the rabbit.

Shade!  Got to have shade!

36x30 is a fine size for your does and gives them space for the nest box and kits.  Most kits are in and out of the nest box by week 3 and I usually take the box out by week 4.  Starting around week 3, I put in another 32 ounce water bottle and move the doe's feed dish higher up and put in a second dish down low.  That way everyone has a chance at food and water, even though the kits are not eating much at that point they do watch the doe and mimic what she does.  Here is where I miss using the "J" feeder as the kits learn they can sit in the food dish.  They don't seem to be able to sit in a "J" feeder.  Sitting in the food dish means they poop in the dish which means you have to clean it out more often.

I can not recommend highly enough getting floor mats for each cage.  They are hard plastic and give the rabbit a place to sit that is not directly on the wire.  The mats help prevent sore hocks and also give the rabbit something to move around in the cage.  The drawback on the mats is the rabbit will poop on the mat so you  need to keep an eye out for dirty mats and clean/give a new one.

Keeping a clean rabbitry is not a time sink, and keeping your cages clean will greatly reduce any fly problem, any odor problem, and will give you healthy happy rabbits.  

Probably more than you wanted, but your questions are good.  Keep them up!


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## allergymama (May 20, 2016)

You are all so great at answering questions, that it makes me have more! LOL. Sorry to be a pest. 

(@animalmom NOT more than I wanted! I always want more info and yours and everyones is so helpful!)

So, I think I have found the cages and feeders that I want. (Thanks for all the help!)

1. Now, I am thinking waterers. I am kind of fascinated by the automatic waterers, and they don't seem to be an unreasonable price (even with the pond, we spend so much time schlepping water for those filthy critters: ducks and geese, it would be nice to always have clean water for somebody around here!).

I see two "ends" (the drinking nozzle part), according to Bass one is a "Borak valve" and one is a "Edstrom vari-flow Valve". Any opinions on them? One better than the other? (Bass' website kind of stinks for information!)

2. Recommendation for a newbie on our first rabbits? Do we go ahead and buy juvenile or older?

3. Michiganders (or climate similar peeps) - is it even worth it to breed rabbits in the winter if they are not inside? These will be in a "lean to" on the side of the detached garage.

4. And for husband who will be doing processing - What is your most tried and true method of dispatch. (Everyone here is already looking forward to rabbit that is not full of buck shot!)


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## animalmom (May 21, 2016)

This time of the year I'd buy juniors.  This way you have time to get familiar with the animals and they with you, you can monitor their body condition and if skinny add to their diet and if fat, and you do not want a fat rabbit, you can put the chunky money on a diet.  Fat rabbits have a harder time breeding and if a fat doe does conceive she may have a hard time with delivery.  

You are probably going to breed in the fall, winter and early spring.  Breeding in the summer is rather iffy as bucks tend to go temporarily sterile when the temperatures get over 80 degrees AND stay that way (the bucks become hot again once the temps cool off... which is probably the main reason folks breed in the fall, winter and early spring).  Not saying you can't breed in the summer, but it is more difficult and frankly would you want to be living in a fur coat and pregnant in the summer heat?

Really, winter cold, as long as there is no wind on the rabbits, is not hard on the rabbit.

There was an article in the ARBA magazine, several issues back, that gave directions for two types of automatic watering systems, and if I remember right also gave clear instructions on how to winterize the lines so the water flowed instead of freezing,  If you are interested in a do-it-yourself project pm me and I'll see if I can find the article and copy it for you.  I would be very surprised if there weren't some videos on U-tube or do a search on the web for automatic water systems for rabbits.  Other than that I can't offer any advise on nozzles.  Do let the rest of us know what you find out and what you decide to use.  Others would find that helpful.

Processing... this is what we do, I don't think any particular way is wrong as long as the rabbit does not suffer.  Once the rabbit is outside of the cage my DH hits it on the head hard enough to stun the bun and then cuts the jugular.  This usually happens so fast the rabbit is not aware of anything and not stressed.  Every once in a while it doesn't go so smoothly and there is an unhappy rabbit prior to the bonking.  We do what we can to prevent stressing the animal.  There is a real gucci product called The Rabbit Wringer that is on the net, it dislocates the neck for an instant kill, and as an added bonus has an adapter that lets you do chickens with the same device.  We had no success using the broomstick method.  It takes too much fiddling with the broomstick and the rabbit is not inclined to just lie there.  We do much better with a very quick kill as it is easier on the rabbit and easier on us.

Once the body is dressed, we like to let it sit covered in the refrigerator for 24 or so hours rather than cook it right away.  Letting the meat sit makes it more tender.  From this point treat the meat like chicken.  I know someone who freezes the small front legs to make buffalo wings when there is enough.

What kind of geese do you have?  We have Embden and like them but they do make a mess with the water.


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## chiques chicks (May 21, 2016)

I'm in Pennsylvania. No problem breeding in dead of winter.

There are brass nipples waterers similar to chicken nipples that are spring loaded and mount horizontally. I use them in non-freezing weather. There are t adapters threaded for nipples that I find easier that drilling and tapping pipe. There are also heat wires made that thread through the pipe system. I've never used them.

If you use bottles and have several sets, seven 32oz fit in a five gallon bucket. I fill them in the house, take them out and switch with the frozen ones in winter. Makes it easy to transport. Really not a lot of work or juggling that way.


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## allergymama (May 21, 2016)

chiques chicks said:


> I'm in Pennsylvania. No problem breeding in dead of winter.
> 
> There are brass nipples waterers similar to chicken nipples that are spring loaded and mount horizontally. I use them in non-freezing weather. There are t adapters threaded for nipples that I find easier that drilling and tapping pipe. There are also heat wires made that thread through the pipe system. I've never used them.
> 
> If you use bottles and have several sets, seven 32oz fit in a five gallon bucket. I fill them in the house, take them out and switch with the frozen ones in winter. Makes it easy to transport. Really not a lot of work or juggling that way.


Are your rabbits outside? What breed to you have? PA probably has similar winters! If they are outside, how much shelter do you provide in the winter?


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## chiques chicks (May 21, 2016)

NZ,  Californian, champagne d'argent. I mix.

Mine are in an unheated addition on my barn, just an implement shed, really. Door doesn't close and there are a lot of cracks, but no wind and dry. It was at one time used to house hunting dogs. The door faces west ( into prevailing wind, unfortunately)


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