# I want to attempt linebreeding



## GD91 (Nov 18, 2014)

Long story short, I've got a bunch of real mutt rabbits  worse, 6 of the 7 rabbits are all lops.
I couldn't obtain the traits that I wanted, all of the rabbits where I live are bred as pets and they are mostly lops. I do like lops (have a mini lop, he's adorable) but it is not a trait that I want in my meat herd. 

Here is the genetic pool so far:
Mini lop  - bred to - non - lop dam.
                - bred to - lop dam (related to non - lop dame)

Produced:
non-lop dam = 7 kits.
lop dam = 7 kits.

Kept back :
= beautiful BEW mini lop doe (she turned out amazing, and is larger than her father)
= 2 half lopped brown does.
= a doe which has the BEW gene, but she is a bits small and scraggly looking, she still seems to have her baby fluff at 8 months.

The good thing is I have obtained another buck. The bad news is he is a lop (but a very large lop, nonetheless.) He is mottled black, grey and white and has good  healthy genes.

I plan to mate him to the does and see what is produced, cull undesirable traits and keep the desired ones which turn out great.

My idea is to breed one of the best bucks back to his grandmother (the prick eared dam) and keep the best prick eared buck offspring for breeding with their aunts/half siblings.
I am breeding for certain traits in the following order:
1) colour (we wanted all BEW, but I also really like the brown ones. I am willing to sacrifice colour for the other genetics.)
2) pricked ears.
3) Keep back the largest and fastest growing kits for breeding.
4) litters averaging around 8 kits.

I'm wondering if introducing new genetic material say, every third generation will be sufficient to maintain the health of the gene pool. Of course the genetic material introduced would have to be completely sound with good conformation and immunity.

I have noticed, however, that the brown kits grew larger and faster than the BEW's. They seem to have a better feed:meat conversion, I am wondering if I can reach this with the BEW's as well and as quickly.
Another concern I have is the scraggly BEW doe. She is much smaller than the others, her fur is incredibly fluffy (like a 10 week old kit, but larger) and she was the only one to cost us at the vets a few months ago. She also seems incredibly placid and I'm wondering if she is either stupid or deaf because you can just reach for her and she doesn't even react at all.
She would have been culled except for her colour, but I'm concerned about her genetics rearing their heads further down the line.

BUT! As far as temperments go (I've added this) the brown does are much more volatile than the BEW's. It is bizarre how much these two different pairs differ, it's like they are two seperate breeds that are not even related.
I'm going to sum up the brown does:

*Pretty Aggressive.
*Much broodier.
*Grow faster
* Similar colouring to the pollyface farm rabbits (ours were grassfed over the summer, I'm wondering if that gave the brown does the advantage. They thrived more on the grass and other plants more than the BEW's.)

A summary of the BEW's:

* Much calmer and more placid.
* Do not appear as broody.
* Grow slower.
* Seem to not be as energetic as the brown does.

It's certainly a puzzle. These does are all sisters / half sisters.

As for the vets, I put the rabbits on shavings for a short period and she obtained an eye infection within two days. It was promptly treated and she recovered very quickly. The vet thought that maybe a shaving had just got in her eye. None of the others had the issue, but they were all moved off of the shavings as soon as I returned from the vets.
It's a bit of a disappointment because she cost quite a bit to get treated.

Is there anything I really need to watch out for (besides obvious deformities and weak immunity) in my herd when linebreeding?
The information for linebreeding is scarce, I know I need to breed for good immunity, traits and conformation, I'm be excited to try but I obviously do not want to ruin my herd.


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## GD91 (Nov 18, 2014)

Oh, and these are of course, being bred for meat. I am not planning on selling any stock.
And I do not mind eating the rabbits which do not meat my standards. So far the kits outgrew their mini lop father and are closer to the size of their much larger dam.

The mini lop buck (the original) has been removed from my breeding program to be a pet (he's not worth skinning, he just sits and looks like a stuffed toy on my kitchen floor in a small dog bed) so we are now using the larger buck for the breeding program.

And one of the original does (the lop) died for causes unknown, although I believe that she had a reproductive issue since she had discharge, but since the vets was shut and she deteriorated fast I had to opt to cull her at the beginning of the year.

I am particuarly interested in the lop gene, will this be difficult to breed out given the stock?


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## animalmom (Nov 19, 2014)

OK, I don't have any answers for you, but I'll be watching this thread to see how you are doing.

It is my understanding, and I am not a vet or animal scientist (although my evil twin plays both on TV  just joking.

Anyway it is my understanding that most established rabbit breeds are highly inbred to begin with so I personally would not worry too much about line breeding.  I line breed my rabbits and so far have not noticed any undesirable traits, but I also bring in new genes every 2-3 years in the form of a new doe or two.  I am currently working on two groups, one all AlTex and the other a combo of Cali/NZ and AlTex.

I do applaud your plan to introduce new genes every so often as that is a good idea.  You would need to keep pretty good records, as in not relying on your memory, as to who was related to whom.  This is doable, just need to consistently track.

How large, poundage, is your large buck and showing my ignorance, what is "pricked ears"?  Depending on the answer to the ear question, have you considered bringing in a California or New Zealand doe to breed to you lop buck?  Seems to me (keeping in mind my disclaimer) that doing that would add some real nice meat genes to your pool...again that applies depending on the ears question.

This is not a criticism at all as I'm just curious but why would you want to spend time working on your BEW if that strain was a slow grower and not an avid breeder?  BEW are quite pretty, but if it slows your meat program then is it worth your time?  If you wanted a side-line with your rabbitry you could experiment with the BEW as a pet line but that is another can of worms, in my biased opinion.

Good luck with your program and remember pictures, always pictures!


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## GD91 (Nov 19, 2014)

Hi

Nice to hear from someone who already linebreeds  I'm not sure how much the buck or any other rabbit weigh's because I haven't got a reliable set of scales yet, adding them to my christmas list. 

Yes, I did my research on linebreeding and discovered what you mentioned  that most breeds are already heavily inbred.

I am also dubious about breeding the BEW's, it is my DH who wishes for me to use them.
However, the rabbits are my project, as are the chickens and quail, so he doesn't intervene in anything. 
Whilst I have taken his words into consideration, I am finding it a struggle to decide between faster growth vs better temperments as I've written above. 

Pricked ears is just a term that I have used to describe the normal upright ears on the rabbit  and not the lops.

What is your story about linebreeding?

I have searched and the information is scarce, what I can find is for dogs, cats and people


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## GD91 (Nov 19, 2014)

Here are some images. I've not got any one here of one brown doe or the new buck, so I'll take them tommorow and upload them. The kits have grown since these were taken, these were at about 6 months of age.
The brown mini lop is dad and the larger white and brown spotted doe is mom.


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## GD91 (Nov 19, 2014)

more pics


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## animalmom (Nov 20, 2014)

Regarding line breeding... folks don't like to talk about it because there is a fine line between line breeding and inbreeding... old saying has it that if it works, as in gives you the desired/anticipated result, then it is line breeding, which is good, and if it doesn't then it is inbreeding, which is bad.  

Having said that... I started breeding rabbits in 2008, not for pets but for meat, and started with a grown California pair and a trio, two junior does and a junior buck, that were Cali/NZ crosses.  I found that my crosses had much better vigor, bigger litters and better personalities than the pure California pair and ended up crossing my purebreds with my hybrids.  This went on until 2012 when I got a trio, two does and a buck, that are AlTex.  AlTex, if you don't know... and why should you  are a rather new hybrid developed by Alabama A&M and Texas A&M to create a large rabbit that is heat tolerant and will do well on what ever can be found for food.  As I live in Texas, where it can easily stay over 100F for weeks this breed sounded good.  Initially I thought I'd go all AlTex, but have retained the last daughter from my original hybrid buck.  She is smaller than the AlTex so I don't want to cross her with either of those bucks, but will cross her with the son of another doe who has a lot of Cali/NZ genes.  With me so far?  

Current rabbit count, 2 AlTex bucks (original buck and grandson), 2 Altex does (daughter of original buck, her daughter -- granddaughter of original buck), 3 Cali/NZ does, all unrelated and 1 Cali/NZ buck who is the son of one of the 3 C/NZ does.  Traits that are important to me are personality, feed thrift, co-operation with breeding and litter size, and as I breed to put meat on my family table the resulting kits need to really thrive.  Regarding personality, rabbits that are lovebugs, come eagerly to the front of the cage, like to have their head scratched, would let me groom them bald are good traits.  It is not productive to have to fight with your rabbit to move it from one cage to another or medicate the poor dear. 

I don't have a problem breeding mother to son, or father to daughter but I don't breed brother to sister as I don't think there is anything to be gained and much to lose with that combination.  The probability of some recessive gene, or two, combining in the brother/sister mating is higher than with the mother/son, father/daughter or grandparent/greandchild.  At the point where I'm doing grandparent/grandchild is when I start looking to bring in some new genes. Others may have another opinion, but that is where I draw the line.

I saw your thread regarding grass feeding and found your experience interesting.  Here's a question for you, if you don't mind... do you feed fresh greens to kits?  My understanding is one aught not do so as their digestive system isn't up to the water content and they could come down with gut problems.  I've also heard that if you feed the does fresh greens all during pregnancy then the kits won't have a problem.  I've never experimented with this notion because the kits are too precious for me to experiment on, so your opinion would be welcomed.  

Regarding the picture you posted of the cage on the ground... do you have a bottom to the cage, other than the ground?  I'd worry about dogs/cats or other animals digging into the rabbit cage, or the rabbits digging out of the cage.  You seem to have a handle on the situation so a wee bit of clarification would be delightful.  Your grass is envy producing!  All your animals look quite healthy, so you are obviously doing right for them.

Regarding my ears comment, pricked, we just say erect.  Have you considered joining the ARBA (American Rabbit Breeders Association)?  It doesn't matter where in the world you are as the ARBA is close to being worldwide.  While it is an organization that caters to those who show their animals, they understand those who breed for meat and support that too.  They also produce a useful magazine every other month that has information on shows, breeds, health and keeps us with legislature that affects animal breeders.  The website is arba.net and sometimes I find it a wee bit difficult to get around -- find what I'm looking for but eventually I do find it.

I do wish you the best with your breeding program.  I think picking up a scale so you can weigh your rabbits will be a big asset for you to determine who is the better breeders.  Sometimes it seems as though it all boils down to weight, who puts on the most in the least amount of time.  It is rather fun, and thrilling to see your kits gain ounces from one week to the next.  Then again you don't want your adult rabbits fat.  It is a balancing act.

One last thought regarding rabbit health: pasteurella (also called sniffles).  It is nasty and hard to get out of your rabbitry and naturally will affect your favorite rabbit.  I vaccinate my rabbits with a product called "BunnyVac".  I do not sell this stuff, I do not profit from telling people about it, I just like being able to be pro-active with my rabbits' health.  If you are interested in it, and to be honest I don't know if they can ship it to the UK, but you can ask.  Here is the email: info@pavlab.com, web site is pavlab.com (Pan American Veterinary Laboratories)  I strongly urge you to check it out.  

Keep me posted on your progress, if you don't mind, please and thank you.  Sorry this is long... I get carried away taking rabbits, or goats or geese or chickens or dogs.  Lastly, I promise, a belated big howdy to BYH, from the Lone Star State where the stars at night are big and bright.... deep in the heart of Texas.... yeehaaaaa.


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## GD91 (Nov 21, 2014)

Hi again 

It will probably interest you to know that -

Yes, we have fed greens and natural forage to the kits with no issues, even the kits which had pelleted mothers.

Yes, we have wire bases on our pens to prevent digouts and the only predator (a local fox which is terrified of our dogs and rarely visits) digging in.

We have tried a number of setups with the rabbits.
We have had:

* Colony Setups.
* Individual Setups.
* Group setups. (I.e pairs or trio's.)
* Opposite sex setups (male groups & female groups.)

By far the best so far is the opposite sex setups. We keep records of the does matings and fish them out around their due date.
The does pen is supported hardware cloth about 1/2 foot off the ground. The grass grows through the base, droppings and urine fall through onto the ground. This is because I have a very small area and do not want the rabbits to graze the grass right down.

By the way, would you consider another mini lop doe a "useful addition?"
My friend has obtained a proven doe from a man who wanted rid of her because she had an accidental litter to her brother.
My friend obtained her soley for me. I'm debating whether to make her dog food or get into mini lop breeding instead of mutts  I've now got 3 pure mini lops, 3 half mini lops and 2 mutts. 

It would seem that mini lops are very popular here  they are everywhere, but I'm pretty sure they are a bit small for meat, am I right?

They are also just too cute  that's how I ended up with a very doglike, happy - go - lucky little buck in the house.


I've already got 5 does, as she is mini and small I'm thinking just cull immediately and pass to the dog.


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## GD91 (Nov 26, 2014)




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## GD91 (Nov 26, 2014)

Above is the large buck and the 4 does I've chosen to keep. We no longer have the Mini lops or the weird small BEW. I simply did not have the space for useless bunnies.  I liked my little mini lop buck though, but feeding them was getting silly if you take into account future litters, space etc. I've only got a small garden and theres no grass at the moment. Everywheres mud from the rain.

As you can see, I've kept both brown does, the larger BEW & their mother. 
The Harlequin buck in the photo is completely unrelated.

He's a lovely boy  may end up keeping him once he's retired. He's be getting spayed though because he sprays at the girls.


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## GD91 (Nov 26, 2014)

As you can see, everything is raised in preparation for minor flooding where we live this winter. Due to what has been happening in other areas of the country I decided it was better to be safe than sorry.

Was glad I decided that, there was a 1 inch deep large puddle partly underneath the rabbit pen. As you can see, there are also boards down next to the run for me to walk on because the mud is terrible. I had two dogs and the hens churn up the garden which did not help, but they enjoyed themselves.

I want to get cages for one of the sheds to.


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