# Lump under ear, is it CL?



## FarmerDenise (Feb 20, 2011)

Our boer buckling has a large lump under his ear. It developed very suddenly. I groom him almost daily, since he loves having his face combed. I did not notice anything yesterday.

I have seperated him from my doelings (la mancha crosses). 
I cut the fur over the swelling and marked the outline with a magic marker.







I have no money left, so a vet visit is out of the question. We are in survival mode.
We got Billy in order to get our girls pregnant. It has been extremely difficult to find male goats around here, so I did not have much choice, when it came to buying him. The owner said her herd was clean and has been a closed herd for 3 years, but she did not have them tested recently.

I really need to be able to sell Billy, and I don't want my girls sick.
Should I try to lance this. Could this be a spider bite. It just came on so suddenly, is that common for CL?
I  am not going to sell him, if he could make people sick.

I am just figuring out what I should do, to keep everyone as healthy as possible.

I am not in the goat breeding business. I just want raw unpasteurized milk for myself and my family.

EDA: the date on my camera is off. I did just take that picture, today.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 20, 2011)

I don't know a whole lot about CL so I don't know if that is a normal site for it. Is it on the jawbone at all? I probably wouldn't lance it unless it is squishy and ready to burst.

PM Roll Farm, she would know.


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## babsbag (Feb 20, 2011)

That is one of  the most common spots for CL. The only way to know for sure is a test, unfortunately. I had a doe and a wether with a lump there, the vet thought for sure it was CL. It went away on its own, never broke, and test said no CL. So you just don't know.

I hope it just disappears. I don't know how fast they show up as I wan't looking for them, the vet found them when we were there for another reason. Go figure. 

Best of luck to you. I wouldn't lance it, at least not yet. IMO. Let it get nice and ready.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 20, 2011)

Could be a CL abscess or a salivary gland abscess.

There is a diagram of the common places for CL abscesses on this website:
http://goat-link.com/content/view/101/96/


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## Roll farms (Feb 20, 2011)

There is no way to *know* w/out having it tested...it could be, and if I *had* to hazard a guess, I'd say yes, rather than "might not be" and risk infecting your other goats.

Get him gone before it pops.


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## FarmerDenise (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks RF.

Does that mean as long as it doesn't pop, chances are my girls haven't got it?
And Is it ok to sell him for meat?


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## BetterHensandGardens (Feb 20, 2011)

What Roll said, get him out of there!


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## FarmerDenise (Feb 20, 2011)

Is it common for CL lumps to grow this fast. I spent a lot of time grooming him 2 days ago. I know there was nothing there at that time, yesterday I was quick about the gooming, so I am not 100% sure.
Groomng the goats is a way for me to relax. So I try to do it every couple of days. And since Billy really enjoys it too, I tend to focus on him. He is a sweet and friendly little guy and it is fun to be around him.
I am just stating that, so you know that he is cuddled a lot and therefore I notice things more than I might otherwise.


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## FarmerDenise (Feb 20, 2011)

Ok, I am trying to decide, can I sell him on CL or do I shoot him!!!
I need to make my money back, but I'd rather cut my losses, before I get my girls sick.

I really am at my financial end. We lost another big employer in my area this week. Jobs are just not that available. I have been looking. I really count my pennies. So I am hoping I can sell him for meat. I would certainly be upfront about this lump and that it could be CL. 

Ok, I am going out to make Billy comfy in his lean-to. Poor little guy.


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## helmstead (Feb 20, 2011)

Sure, his meat will still be fine.  That's why you see so much CL in meat herds - it doesn't affect the meat, so they kind of 'let it go'.

I agree, I'd assume the worst on this one.  It's in a classic presentation area.  If you're going to confine him for ANY period of time, do it somewhere you will NEVER EVER have goats on your property, and away from heavy foot traffic areas.  He could rub on something and rupture it prematurely...


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## Roll farms (Feb 20, 2011)

I've had them come up pretty quickly...can't say how quickly.  I've never timed one.  It usually takes a while (few weeks to a mo.) but...there are no rules w/ goats / illnesses.

Unless he's had a sneaky hidden one already that popped / went unnoticed (which doesn't sound likely), or had an internal / lung abscess pop and he's coughed it up.....your girls *should* be ok. 

If it came up fast, it could pop fast.  

Again, I can't swear it is...but if you can't have him tested, don't risk it.
And...Don't waste time getting him gone, whatever you decide to do.


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## Caprice_Acres (Feb 21, 2011)

Don't sell him. There's already enough CL out there, why would you want to spread it further?  If you MUST sell him, take him to a MEAT ONLY auction.  That way, no poor newbie goat owner gets ahold of him to start a herd. 

If I were you I'd shoot him. I'd also take a sample of the pus (take the abscess WHOLE if you can, less likely to spread onto you) and send it in for testing. That's the only way to know for sure if it IS CL. It is in a pretty classic area, though.

I had heard that carcasses with more than 2 abscesses (they can be quite numerous internally sometimes) are inedible for public consumption. Though why anybody would want to eat a goat with a zoonotic disease in any form is beyond me. I think CL positive goats should not be consumed.


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## Ariel301 (Feb 21, 2011)

I'd use him for meat, personally. I have a CL free herd and though it is a disease you can manage, it is a pain to do so, so I don't want to risk infecting anyone. There is a vaccine available (it's labeled for sheep but works on goats) so you can vaccinate your girls if you want to try managing him with CL, and just keep him away from them when he has an active abscess, they usually go through periods of lumps and periods of no lumps, and they only spread it by getting the contents of an abscess where another goat can come in contact with it.


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## chandasue (Feb 22, 2011)

Vaccination doesn't always work that great from what I've read. You can get a vacs made specific to your strain of CL but spendy. Once you start vaccinating you have to vaccinate every baby since the scabs fall off and can transmit the virus. I wouldn't do it personally. Eat him... (not trying to be cold, just practical...)


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## babsbag (Feb 22, 2011)

chandasue said:
			
		

> Once you start vaccinating you have to vaccinate every baby since the scabs fall off and can transmit the virus. I wouldn't do it personally. Eat him... (not trying to be cold, just practical...)


What scabs fall off? Are you talking one from the vaccination site? I believe it is a killed vaccine so I don't know how that would carry the virus. If you are talking goats that are CL positive I agree that they carry the virus, but if the vaccine holds then your herd is protected. I wouldn't knowingly run a goat with an open abscess in my vaccinated flock, but I just want you to clarify your statement. I hear of many good results with the sheep vaccine.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 22, 2011)

Its a hard choice Im sure...I just wanted to say Im sorry   He is a very handsome boy!  

Good luck in whatever you choose.  Its not easy.  But you must do what you can deal with.  You can have CL in the herd and deal but as others stated its hard work and a nusiance sometimes.  

The CL Vaccine is a live vaccine.   Im not a big fan of giving it to ones who dont have it.  Cuz you are literally injecting them with the disease to activate an imuno response to it.  So I would only do it if I absolutely had to.  It can be a risk.  Same thing with Sore Mouth vaccines.  If you dont have it..dont add it to the herd unless absolutley neccessary.  

Again..all I can say is sorry..its hard on you Im sure...I wish you the best in whatever you choose.  

PS As for the meat.  From all Ive read..and heard from meat goat herdsman..its ediable. I have dairy..so I dont know first hand.


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## chandasue (Feb 22, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> The CL Vaccine is a live vaccine.   Im not a big fan of giving it to ones who dont have it.  Cuz you are literally injecting them with the disease to activate an imuno response to it.  So I would only do it if I absolutely had to.  It can be a risk.  Same thing with Sore Mouth vaccines.  If you dont have it..dont add it to the herd unless absolutley neccessary.


This is what I've read as well contrary to what babsbag is saying. I don't know who is right. I just wouldn't take the chance with the vaccine.


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## FarmerDenise (Feb 22, 2011)

I am keeping him seperate from the girls. It is rather difficult to do, since we don't have much space. We are also expecting some very bad weather, cold and rain 
We were able to make a makehsift shelter for him by leaning old funky plywood against an old boat we have, but this won't do in really nasty weather.
His lump hasn't changed any. So I am ever so slightly hopeful.

I have put an add out to sell him. I will definitely let potential buyers know about the lump and that it might be CL. I cut his hair on that spot anyway, so it is pretty noticable.
Just because the person I bought him from wasn't truthfull with me about the poor care he had received (he had lice and his feet had not been trimmed, we can see the new horn growth looks much better, since he has been with us), I won't be doing the same to someone who wants to buy him from us.
We have become too attached to him to be able to butcher and eat him. He is really sweet and gentle and loves being pet and groomed.
I have been trimming his hooves, we got rid of the lice and he has grown a lot in the 2 months we have had him. I had hoped to sell him to someone who wanted a pet goat or whatever. Now I will sell him for meat, unless a knowledgable person wants him in spite of the CL.
Goat meat is in demand in my area and I don't see them advertised for sale very often. That is one reason I had such a difficult time finding a buck for my milk goats.
I just hope my girls are pregnant now 

Thanks for all the advice.


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## babsbag (Feb 22, 2011)

I didn't say for sure that is a killed virus, just that I thought that it was. It was actually on BYH in a previous thread that I read that it was killed. I would still like to know about the scabs falling off. Did you mean a scab from the injection site? I haven't used the vaccine, but there are some on here that do.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 23, 2011)

I would have to read more on the CL vaccine...some, are Modified Live and some are Dead.  I believe the ones you have created for specific strains are Dead. I read they actually killed the strain you have from sample via ultrasound and that then becomes part of the vaccine. 

I do know that they are not labeled for goats..and the manufacturer does not recomend for goats due to injection site reactions etc. 

I dont know enough about CL to be certain on the use of vaccines or what the outcome of the use of the vaccines for people who deal w/ CL in their herds.  So I guess I should apologise for my statement of not vaccinating against it. I just dont know enough to give you specific details.  I know that I do not use it..becuase I dont have it in my herd.  I know it dos'nt have strong clinical trials like other common vaccines, to support its use...for me. That is my personal opinion..cuz I dont not have it in my herd...and dont want to introduce it..live or dead.  But if I had CL my thoughts on this may be completely differant.  So Im really not the person to advise on its use.  I would be, like you, searching for advice and information.  

What I do know with all Vaccines..live or dead the disease is injected to create an imuno response in the animals.  Thats what a vaccine is.  With every vaccine...there is a risk of introducing the disease.  Thats just the nature of vaccines.  So before I would inject a vaccine into my herd...I would do my homework and wiegh the risks vs the disease and the consequences of both.  Then make a decision.  

Most are established and fine...the CL...I just dont know enough about it current use and successfulness people had with it.  I do know Roll has dealt with it for a while..and has had success with keeping her animals healthy.  I dont know the details of her practices for it...but maybe she'll chime in and elabortate on the vaccine. 

Im sorry...I just dont have enough info to share on it...and This is my personal opinion on its use.  

The only true way to get real facts is to have it tested..and then know for certain what your dealing with.  Speculating on this disease is not recomended.  I would test. Especially if you think he may have got some does pregnant.  

I wish you the best in your decision.  Its a personal choice of what you have to do with whats been laid upon your plate.  Im sorry..  I pray its not CL for you and him and your herd.  

Good luck with him...he is awful handsome!!


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## chandasue (Feb 23, 2011)

babsbag said:
			
		

> I didn't say for sure that is a killed virus, just that I thought that it was. It was actually on BYH in a previous thread that I read that it was killed. I would still like to know about the scabs falling off. Did you mean a scab from the injection site? I haven't used the vaccine, but there are some on here that do.


I think it was in the Storey's guide or some other book I had from the library that it talked about the scab or vaccine site being a possible means of infecting other unvaccinated animals. I loaned my copy of the book out though so I can't look it up...


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## babsbag (Feb 23, 2011)

I will have to ask my vet, maybe she knows. I know she is a goat owner as well, and did deal with CL in her herd at one time. I think though that she had the vaccine made. 

I read information from 2002 on Colorado Serum's website last night and they said in very specific words that it is not for goats, there are more than a few problems. But I still know that people do use it. It would be my luck that my goats would be the ones with the severe reactions.

I have 2 does that test CL positive, although their titers are very low, 1:16. Never had an abscess, everyone else in the herd is clear. Of course it is my first 2 goats and my husband just kinda glares at me when I mention getting rid of them.There is no chance that they are leaving my herd or being culled. That is why the thought of the vaccine always lurks in the back on my mind. 

My vet suggests that I get a test done somewhere else and see what the results are. With no abscess I can't have that tested or have a vaccine made so it very frustrating to just be in a holding pattern.


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## Roll farms (Feb 23, 2011)

I wonder if they don't test positive b/c maybe they'd been vaccinated at some time...?

I use the Col. Serum vaccine.  Sometimes they get abscesses at the injection site....I treat them like "real" abscesses (isolate, treat, heal, release) and 90% of the time, they're 'abescess free' after that.

90% effectiveness beats no protection, when you have CL does in the herd, like I do.

I had a vaccine made at first.  Spent $300.00 on it...
I dunno who messed up (my vet w/ the sample, the company who made it, the shipping company maybe let it get too warm at some point, or I used it "wrong"...) but CL spread like MAD during the time I used it.  All of the does I used it on ended up w/ CL.  

I switched to Col. Serum's Case Bac after that and had MUCH, much better luck.


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## babsbag (Feb 23, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I wonder if they don't test positive b/c maybe they'd been vaccinated at some time...?


Unfortunately the previous owners tell me no vaccination, but also no abscesses in their herd. I think they are being honest with me. They have never tested and as I new goat owner I had no idea.  I have had these goats for almost 3 years, one doe has had 3 kids, and the other has had 1. All the kids are negative, and no abscesses on the does, even after the stress of kidding or moving to my place, so  

My vet wants me to talk to the lab and see if they have any insight on why they might test + and still be asymptomatic. I personally think it is good nutrition and lots of luck. 

Do you do blood tests? I am wondering if they will test positive forever or only for a short time.

Have you ever vaccinated a goat that has had an abscess in the past? If so, what was the outcome?


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## Roll farms (Feb 24, 2011)

I don't bother to test (for that) b/c everything I've read / been told says they'll test positive (but sometimes w/ low titers) if vaccinated...and I boost yearly.

Every doe that's positive that I vaccinated sort of has a 'bloom' of CL afterward....so I stopped vaccinating anyone that I *know* is positive anyway...it never helped and seemed to 'cause' more lumps.  
By that I mean....she could be lumpless...I'd vaccinate, and notice 1 or 2 w/in a few weeks...not always at the injection site.

Once I stopped vaccinating the 'lumpies' at all (it didn't help anyway)...I noticed their outbreaks happened much less often.


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