# Question about 2 ND kids



## Wishin2BElswheyr (Jun 4, 2011)

Hello everyone,
My boyfriend and I have 2 Nigerian Dwarf doelings. Jasmine is 10 weeks and Lamb Chop is 8 weeks. These are our first goats ever. We followed the breeder's directions for feeding the milk replacer which she said to mix at half strength to avoid scours (8 oz a feeding starting at 4x for the first week then down to 3x for 3 weeks then down to 2x a day til 7 weeks and then 1x a day and stop at 8 weeks) and when I mentioned the weights of our girls on another forum I was told I misunderstood the directions and had been starving our girls. And they said that we were not to feed them alfalfa hay free choice, that's only for older lactating/pregnant does. Needless to say I felt like a horrible momma especially considering we were trying to do stuff the natural way and tried to treat mange with Tea Tree Oil. Well it didn't work and woke up one morning to find both of Jasmine's ears covered in fish scale like scabs. Lamb Chop has lost some hair on her ears but it was nothing like Jasmine. We gave the ivermectin pour on on Monday. Now all of Jasmine's hair has fallen off of her ears and is coming off in chunks at the base of her ears. Her skin is very dry where the hair is gone. They are both scratching and lots of hair comes out when I brush them. I am almost certain that Jasmine is copper deficient as well as her once pretty reddish/brown coat is now coming in much more golden colored. We have been giving them Molly's Herbal Wormer, which by the way they act is if we are trying to poison them. I thought that her site said it may help with cocci, so trying the natural way we haven't had them on cocci prevention. They had not been interested in grain until this week. They eat about a tablespoon out of the palm of our hands 3x a day. Which I know isn't alot but these goats are small probably not even 15 lbs on Jasmine (10 weeks) and probably like 11-12 on Lamb Chop (8 weeks). Now today they have both had very log poos (like dog poo consistency). I know that's a sign of worms, but they just had ivermectin....
So now for my questions...(as we have called our vet and left a message and it usually takes sometime to hear back from him as he is a very busy traveling vet)
How do you know that the ivermectin worked for the mites problem? I have read that it can really dry their skin out and so I'm hoping that's why they are rubbing their bodies on everything.
Are you supposed to give another application of the stuff like a week later?
Can log stools be cocci? 
Thanks all for reading this very long story. LOL. I hope that it all makes sense.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 4, 2011)

You should be dosing the ivermec at 1cc/22lbs and for mites you should repeat this 3x 10-12 days apart.  They are going to look worse before they start looking better, baths are in order it will help them to heal faster.  
   Cocci ---  they probably do have a over load.  And you need to treat them ASAP!  Corid is the easiest thing to get your hands on you should be able to pick it up at tsc or some place like tsc...  Corid dosage is 2.5cc/10lbs for 5 days(undiluted).  
  I would guess they might have ear mites, you treat them with vetRX I think the dosage on vetRX is 3 drops/ear for 3 days... 
  Also I would not worry about the copper for now, get rid of the mites, and worms then copper after the other issues are resolved.

  In your case I would forget about the "natural" thing for now.  Get your babies healthy then give it a shot if you want, I am not knocking your efforts by any means, I just do not believe the the "natural" way will fix your issues fast enough.


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## elevan (Jun 4, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> You should be dosing the ivermec at 1cc/22lbs and for mites you should repeat this 3x 10-12 days apart.  They are going to look worse before they start looking better, baths are in order it will help them to heal faster.
> Cocci ---  they probably do have a over load.  And you need to treat them ASAP!  Corid is the easiest thing to get your hands on you should be able to pick it up at tsc or some place like tsc...  Corid dosage is 2.5cc/10lbs for 5 days(undiluted).
> I would guess they might have ear mites, you treat them with vetRX I think the dosage on vetRX is 3 drops/ear for 3 days...
> Also I would not worry about the copper for now, get rid of the mites, and worms then copper after the other issues are resolved.
> ...


I want to clarify a few things that Goatmasta said.

Ivomec (ivermectin) at 1cc/ 22# is an oral dose.  If you give it sub-q the dose is 1cc/ 100# and I find that the injected route is more effective at mites / lice.

CoRid - dosage given is correct but make sure you're getting the 9.6% liquid (not the 20% powder or 1.25% pellets)

VetRx - will work great for ear mites.  To eliminate ear mites, coat inside of ear and repeat treatment daily for 3 days.

I would also hold off on the copper until your other issues are under control.

And the natural way seems to be more beneficial as a preventative than a treatment imo.


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## helmstead (Jun 4, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Ivomec (ivermectin) at 1cc/ 22# is an oral dose.  _If you give it sub-q the dose is 1cc/ 100# and I find that the injected route is more effective at mites / lice._


Nah, the oral dose works fine, REALLY...I promise.


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## elevan (Jun 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again just stating what I have found to work best on MY farm.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 4, 2011)

Just wondering where the dosage of 1cc/100# came from?  My guess is off the label.  Which is for CATTLE.  The dosage is 1cc/22# injected or oral.  I have nearly10yrs of experience with a rather large herd to back up my smart insistent mouth, and have learned too many lessons the hard way.  I have well over 100 kids/yr and have a dead loss of 5% or less I can't think of but maybe 1 or 2 other breeders that can say that.  The whole reason I bother to post is so others do not have to learn the hard lessons.


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## Wishin2BElswheyr (Jun 5, 2011)

Well we got the pour on stuff and put it on as a pour on. Was this not the thing to do? I swear someone told me it was double the dose, and so we put ~1ml on each of them at the time they were roughly 10lbs each (and the box says 1 cc for 22lbs) But they are still kicking and feel better I think so we couldn't have hurt them too bad by giving too much right? :/ 
We bought the VetRx but I had to get it from Jeffers since our TSC doesn't have it. But we got the Ivermectin first and that's what the vet said to use (but my boyfriend talked to him and he never gave a dosage). Since we've used the Ivermectin and now her ears are bald and very dry and flaky, I wasn't sure if I should put the VetRx on them. And it's strange that the one who is copper deficient is suffering from the mites much much more than Lambie.
Since the stuff we have is a pour on the, do we repeat the dose as a pour on, but at 1cc per 22lbs? Thanks everyone for your help


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## ksj0225 (Jun 5, 2011)

Waiting for the more experienced to get on-line.  But please don't use the pour on as a pour on until you get somemore info from these guys/girls.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 5, 2011)

You certainly can pour it on, the issue with pouring on is that it can burn some goats, they will get like a rash, possible hair loss so on and so forth, I prefer orally.  It works exactly the same whether you pour on or give orally.  With ivermec it does not hurt a thing to slightly over dose.  You would rather over dose than under dose.

 PS:  the vetRX goes in the ear.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 5, 2011)

If you want to put something on the ears to soothe them, you can use MTG. You can find that at TSC. Also NuStock is a great product for skin problems. You can buy that at Light Livestock Supply (online).

You can use Corid or DiMethox for coccidia. DiMethox is a little hard to find in the stores right now but I think places are starting to get it again. You can find dosages if you do a search.


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## elevan (Jun 5, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> Just wondering where the dosage of 1cc/100# came from?  My guess is off the label.  Which is for CATTLE.  The dosage is 1cc/22# injected or oral.  I have nearly10yrs of experience with a rather large herd to back up my smart insistent mouth, and have learned too many lessons the hard way.  I have well over 100 kids/yr and have a dead loss of 5% or less I can't think of but maybe 1 or 2 other breeders that can say that.  The whole reason I bother to post is so others do not have to learn the hard lessons.


The injected dose is from my vet - who raises goats himself - and it's what works in MY area.  (And the cattle dose on the bottle is 1cc/ 110#, not 100#).


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## Goatmasta (Jun 5, 2011)

As I have said before the only vet I used that actually had goats killed my doe and her unborn doe kid because she didn't need the c-section that I took her in to get.  I have used more vets and experienced their lack knowledge about goats more times than one can imagine.  Don't hide behind your vets word.  Listen to experience.

PS:  Most people on this board love fiasco farms site read what she says about ivermec.  http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm    Make sure you read the "notes".


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## Goatmasta (Jun 5, 2011)

One may ask their selves why not inject?  You do not inject ivermec and many other medications because they have a stinging carrier.  I have had it happen to me and have talked to many vets who have had this happen to them as well, when you inject a goat with any medication with a stinging carrier you run the risk of killing the goat due to nervous shock.  Believe me or don't, doesn't matter, eventually it will happen.


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## elevan (Jun 5, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> One may ask their selves why not inject?  You do not inject ivermec and many other medications because they have a stinging carrier.  I have had it happen to me and have talked to many vets who have had this happen to them as well, when you inject a goat with any medication with a stinging carrier you run the risk of killing the goat due to nervous shock.  Believe me or don't, doesn't matter, eventually it will happen.


*And that is exactly WHY the INJECTED DOSE IS LOWER than the oral dose.*

And I DO NOT HIDE behind my vet's advice.  If you were to look to my posts on cows then you would know that my vet advised that I put down a calf because I didn't have the experience with cattle to nurse him back.  I ignored his advice and he gave me what I needed to save the calf anyway...AND I DID SAVE IT.

Your experience is not necessarily my experience.  And new goat owners need to know EVERY piece of information and make a decision that will work for THEIR farm.

And if your vet killed your goat that YOU took in for a C-section by doing said C-section that you claim it didn't need - then why did you take it in?  You don't need to answer...it's really a rhetorical question...but people who raise goats need a vet even if it's just to get rx those of us who've found a goat vet shouldn't be made to think we should distrust the vet just because you had a bad experience.

I don't negate your experience in goats...it sounds like you do have it...but at the same time don't negate mine or anyone elses.  I'm sorry if I'm reading a snide tone from you that you don't mean but that is the way that you're coming across.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 5, 2011)

First off I took the goat for said c-section.  Vet refused and by the time I found another vet and got her there all was lost.  Absolutely do not hang on your vets every word.  Absolutely distrust your vet.  That is why we are all on this forum.  If vets could be trusted with goats we would not need advice from others now would we.
   I am not negating your experience, I am saying that you are wrong. #1 it is a bad idea to inject ivermec, and #2 the dosage of 1cc/100# is the wrong dose if you do choose to inject it. You may go right ahead with your dosage and in a few years ivermec will no longer be effective for you.  On top of that it doesn't matter how much you are injecting it burns.   
  There is no snide tone here just stating the facts.  Go to fiasco and read the section on wormers.  Here is a snippet from fiasco ---


   DO NOT underdose wormers. In most cases (but not all), it is better to give too much than not enough. *Please note that the dosages for goats is sometimes much more than what it says on the label, if you underdose, you are wasting the wormer and helping the worms to build up resistance.*

Always weigh your goat before administering any wormer and make sure to give the correct does for the weight of the goat. To calculate the weight of your dairy goat, please refer to our weight chart.

People get confused about "rotating" wormers. If you give a different wormer every time you worm, this builds up a resistance to all your wormers very quickly. *It is best to stick with one wormer until it is no longer effective*, or you could use the same wormer for at least a year, and then the next year use a different one.

  Surely her and I are not both wrong.


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## elevan (Jun 5, 2011)

Fias Co is not the end all be all of goating...sorry but they are not.  And we are not all here because we can't trust our vets...many on here do not have any livestock vets in their area...they are becoming a dying breed.  Do a search on here and you'll find several others who do as I and inject using a lower dosage when injecting.

And as to your advice, next time maybe you could be 100% clear on what you give and how to give it...your original post was a little confusing with so much information left out.

I think the OP's questions have been answered and this is no longer helpful.


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## Goatmasta (Jun 5, 2011)

Sorry you were confused the OP didn't seem to be, and you are still wrong about the injectable ivermec dosage.


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