# Abscess in one month old calf



## cjc (Oct 3, 2016)

On Saturday I discovered one of my one month old (5.5 weeks) Angus bottle calves looked like he swallowed a tennis ball! My mother checked them him at 6am and said he was fine, I was there at noon and I noticed him standing in a paddock, not greeting me as he normally would. I went to check on him and found a giant lump on the side of his face. He was eating fine and acting somewhat normal but had a bad case of the runs. Temperature was a little up but not much. I showed a friend who instantly told me "lumpy jaw". I of course got to googling and starting panicking! A lot of the results from reading about it were not good and he is just a baby and I couldn't find any cases of this on a calf this young online. I called the vet and he came out and said the calf had a piece of grain or hay stuck in his molar or cheek which has given him an abscess.  The vet drained the abscess and gave him a long lasting antibiotic under the skin. I am going to repeat that drug on Tuesday. I have also been cleaning the abscess with iodine. He doesn't like it of course so ive really just been squirting it with the iodine and bloating it when he has his bottle. He still has the runs pretty bad so I have been giving him electrolytes at lunch and still keeping with his morning and evening milk.  After the vet drained the abscess the next day it was massive, which he warned me about, and today it seems to be going down, as he said it would. I am just wondering if anyone has any experience/advice on this type of issue. This calf was a twin so he's a little guy. His twin brother probably has a good 40lbs on him so I just assume he's a little more sensitive health wise due to his size. Anything you think I should do/stop doing to help this little guy recover?


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 3, 2016)

I know *nothing* about cows, but when goats have diarrhea, 99% of the time it's parasites. Has he had a fecal run?


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## cjc (Oct 3, 2016)

The diarrhea is from the infection from the abscess. I am not 100% sure of that but when these bottle calves get run down by any illness or infections the runs come hand in hand. His poop has gone from pure water to now like a runny mud, so improving. Hopefully with some more days of electrolytes and the next dose of drugs tomorrow it will go away.

Here is a picture of him from today. 2 Days after the Abscess was drained


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## Mini Horses (Oct 3, 2016)

Still there but improving.  So keep up with the drugs!!  Otherwise he may not totally heal.   As for the iodine, it is to help but, have you tried a hot, wet compress?  That will help wash off any dried materials that are draining and you MUST keep it open to drain....then it will heal.

The warmth will also be comforting to the wound, so try it while he's nursing.  Yes, I know you only have a few minutes for them to suck that bottle down!!  have it all ready and soon as he latches on, put that sucker on the wound, hold it a couple minutes, then put more water on there.   Wipe right at the incision the vet made, even pressure from top of swollen area to push any abcess materials out.

Just my thoughts from afar.


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## cjc (Oct 3, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> Still there but improving.  So keep up with the drugs!!  Otherwise he may not totally heal.   As for the iodine, it is to help but, have you tried a hot, wet compress?  That will help wash off any dried materials that are draining and you MUST keep it open to drain....then it will heal.
> 
> The warmth will also be comforting to the wound, so try it while he's nursing.  Yes, I know you only have a few minutes for them to suck that bottle down!!  have it all ready and soon as he latches on, put that sucker on the wound, hold it a couple minutes, then put more water on there.   Wipe right at the incision the vet made, even pressure from top of swollen area to push any abcess materials out.
> 
> Just my thoughts from afar.



You're so right I need to do that! This is a lame excuse but the barn has no warm water haha. I'll have to bring some out from the house. I have been giving him really big electrolyte bottles to keep him hydrated so that will give me enough time to use a hot compress. It obviously hurts him because normally I cant get him out of my face haha.


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## Mini Horses (Oct 3, 2016)

And it will hurt less the more it drains.  Relieves the pressure and his cells can reduce swelling, etc.  Trust me on this, not cows but many goats & horses ... especially when the horse & donkeys were castrated.  Now there's an end you want to be careful around!  But, if it doesn't drain the swelling is quite painful.

Take a bucket of pretty hot water and some rags.   By the time you get there, take them out and get to him with it they will cool some.   It will help.  He will love you for it.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 3, 2016)

cjc said:


> I showed a friend who instantly told me "lumpy jaw".





cjc said:


> A lot of the results from reading about it were not good and he is just a baby and I couldn't find any cases of this on a calf this young online.





cjc said:


> I called the vet and he came out and said the calf had a piece of grain or hay stuck in his molar or cheek which has given him an abscess.





cjc said:


> The vet drained the abscess and gave him a long lasting antibiotic under the skin. I am going to repeat that drug on Tuesday. I have also been cleaning the abscess with iodine.



Did the vet do a culture of the contents of the fluid in the abscess?
It may or may not be lumpy jaw. Lumpy jaw can come about by a puncture inside or outside the mouth by straw, hay, wire anything really. Even new tooth eruptions. That is how it comes about however for it to be lumpy jaw it would culture positive for the bacteria _Actinomyces bovis. 
Actinobacillus lignieresii _causes wooden tongue_._

The treatment for lumpy jaw is high dosage of antibiotics along with Sodium Iodide given IV. Flushing with Iodine is helpful but treatment requires IV Sodium Iodide generally 3 treatments 10 days apart._ 
_
Best to isolate him as the drainage if leaked on hay etc and ingested by another will expose them.

What antibiotic is he on?


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 3, 2016)

One of our bucks I think probably punctured his cheek and developed an abscess. Took him to the vet and had it drained, tested, etc. Thankfully it wasn't CL! I sure was scared, though, as it was a CL site!


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## cjc (Oct 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Did the vet do a culture of the contents of the fluid in the abscess?
> It may or may not be lumpy jaw. Lumpy jaw can come about by a puncture inside or outside the mouth by straw, hay, wire anything really. Even new tooth eruptions. That is how it comes about however for it to be lumpy jaw it would culture positive for the bacteria _Actinomyces bovis.
> Actinobacillus lignieresii _causes wooden tongue_._
> 
> ...



The vet did not test it as he said he was really confident with his diagnoses. He said that if it continued to get worse he would take more measures to look into the issue but he didn't feel it was necessary. He said he knew this was not lumpy jaw because the abscess is not actually connected to the jaw, it can be rolled around and moved away from the jaw which proved to him that it was just an abscess. He also said that you wouldn't see something like lumpy jaw in a one month old calf and that all in all he was really healthy. He said he would be struggling to eat if it were lumpy jaw and in a lot of pain. But yes...that was my first thought for sure and it was why I called the vet immediately. When I read about lumpy jaw I was panicked! I did not want this little guy to suffer.

You know I am not even sure what type of antibiotics he was prescribed but its a milky liquid that I am injecting under the skin. I am giving him his second dose today at noon. If this doesn't clear up more by the weekend I think ill take him back to the vet.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 4, 2016)

The goal is to treat BEFORE it affects the bone. It doesn't start in the bone.
NO way of knowing the bacteria without a culture.
I am hoping it was not. One reason there is not much success in lumpy jaw in cattle is because poor initial diagnosis allows the bacteria to get to the bone and by that time well....

More than likely it is NOT. However for future reference whenever there is an abscess have it cultured to see what kind of bacteria it is.
It also helps in determining what kind of antibiotic. 

Lumpy jaw does not cause pain until it hits the bone and causes secondary affects. It also may not cause issues eating UNTIL the abscess is too large or the bone has been affected. Or if the abscess is extremely large and has not been able to drain.


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## farmerjan (Oct 4, 2016)

Antibiotic could be excenel or naxcel, and the possibility of it being lumpy jaw are probably slim.  I have had calves get a lump from when a cow kicks them when they are trying to nurse.  Is this one that you tried to put on the jersey?   It is not that unheard of for them to get even a little thorn while trying out some hay and it lodges in the skin and causes an infection.  Think sliver under the skin and you didn't see it until it swells and get pussy and then you get it opened and keep it open for a day or two until all the junk is out and the swelling goes down.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 4, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> Antibiotic could be excenel or naxcel, and the possibility of it being lumpy jaw are probably slim.  I have had calves get a lump from when a cow kicks them when they are trying to nurse.  Is this one that you tried to put on the jersey?   It is not that unheard of for them to get even a little thorn while trying out some hay and it lodges in the skin and causes an infection.  Think sliver under the skin and you didn't see it until it swells and get pussy and then you get it opened and keep it open for a day or two until all the junk is out and the swelling goes down.


I think it is slim too, but why a vet wouldn't culture is beyond me. 
There is very little expense with it and it is a better diagnostic aid.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> I think it is slim too, but why a vet wouldn't culture is beyond me.
> There is very little expense with it and it is a better diagnostic aid.


Our vet charged $300... Is that typical?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 4, 2016)

No. That is robbery.


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## cjc (Oct 4, 2016)

Ya the vet just seemed super confident that it would go away, he said it wasn't nearly as bad as lumpy jaw or cases that become lumpy jaw. I also have been told this a few times with my calves that have had infections drained. The clear or yellowish liquid means they caught it early, when its thick and white it means its been around awhile and has a higher risk of attacking bone. This calves was clear and yellow. Very liquid and not thick at all. They used the same theory with my calf with joint ill and the vet checked him again the other day and said he had zero aliments from the joint ill 4 months later. So in that case that theory worked out.

Our vet is really expensive too. I paid $500 for that visit . I had blood tested for glucose levels once and that cost me $50. Not sure how much they would charge for the bacteria culture. Large animal vets for cows are hard to come by in our area. They really only service the dairies so getting one out I always have to wait for hours/days and pay a hefty fee. But I am a sucker for these guys, I don't like to risk leaving them even slightly ill.


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## cjc (Oct 4, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> Antibiotic could be excenel or naxcel, and the possibility of it being lumpy jaw are probably slim.  I have had calves get a lump from when a cow kicks them when they are trying to nurse.  Is this one that you tried to put on the jersey?   It is not that unheard of for them to get even a little thorn while trying out some hay and it lodges in the skin and causes an infection.  Think sliver under the skin and you didn't see it until it swells and get pussy and then you get it opened and keep it open for a day or two until all the junk is out and the swelling goes down.



This is not the calf that was on my Jersey. I don't think he was kicked. He just started really eating hay and grain. He has been nibbling on it for weeks but the few days before he got this he has been really eating it, consuming quiet a bit. I am assuming it was some hay or the corn from the grain. It's so strange but this year my two sweetest calves both got sick. So weird how that works out. The mean ones seem to be invincible and then the sweet gentle ones always get run down. And that pulls at my heart strings!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 4, 2016)

That is outrageous! 

One thing I didn't mention is that _Actinomyces bovis is _horrid smelling! You would want to vomit! 
If you ever have a lump that starts draining and smells like that then you know.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 4, 2016)

My grandmother paid $1000 for a "specialist" vet to culture something on her dog... And they never gave her the results when she asked...

Our vet has charged a LOT worse than that... @Southern by choice, I think you just have an awesome vet.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 4, 2016)

OK what? Your vet charged $300 for a culture? Yikes! That even seems steep for the pricier vets  around here.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 4, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> OK what? Your vet charged $300 for a culture? Yikes! That even seems steep for the pricier vets  around here.


Well, he also drained it.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 4, 2016)

Unfortunately prices are all over the place...  And mostly you find pet vets or big dairy vets.  Not a lot of in between.


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## cjc (Oct 4, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> That is outrageous!
> 
> One thing I didn't mention is that _Actinomyces bovis is _horrid smelling! You would want to vomit!
> If you ever have a lump that starts draining and smells like that then you know.



That's actually really good to know! This doesn't have a smell I don't think. But I once had a cat get a bad abscess and ya...I had to leave the room at the vet the smell was sooooo bad! I just put a hot compress on it as @Mini Horses had suggested. He did like it I think. I gave it a fair bit of pressure and not much came out of it. Just a little bit of blood so I think that's probably a good sign. It's gone down probably another 10% from where it was at yesterday. I gave him another dose of the antibiotics and a big bottle of electrolytes. His diarrhea is almost better. I think ill give him two more days of electrolytes just to make sure. I brought a bucket out of hot water to clean the abscess and before I could even grab the cloth he was drinking the water! I think I will offer him some warm water for the next few days. Help keep him hydrated well he fights the infection.


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## babsbag (Oct 4, 2016)

@Green Acres Farm  My vet charged 37.00 to drain the abscess plus the cost of the syringe, some gauze, the antibiotics, and shipping for the culture. It was less than 100.00 total. The culture was done at UC Davis and that was about 50.00.  The follow up visit when she drained it again was free. I took my goat to her clinic. I love my vet.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 4, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @Green Acres Farm  My vet charged 37.00 to drain the abscess plus the cost of the syringe, some gauze, the antibiotics, and shipping for the culture. It was less than 100.00 total. The culture was done at UC Davis and that was about 50.00.  The follow up visit when she drained it again was free. I took my goat to her clinic. I love my vet.



The vet we have used is very nice, just pricy.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 4, 2016)

I agree with the others,I really don't think its lumpy jaw.

If you are having issues with the iodine flush you can switch to chlorhexidine. Chlorhexidine works well one gram positive AND gram negative bacteria (& Fungi), doesn't become inert when it comes into contact with organic matter (such as poop, pus) where most disinfectants like bleach or iodine do become inert.
It is also gentle on newly forming tissue, more so then iodine.
I've used it on myself and one livestock. I really like it.

A good plus is that it doesn't hurt if you accidentally get in your eyes- after its been diluted to the proper concentration


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## greybeard (Oct 5, 2016)

Good to hear the calf is improving, but like Southern By Choice, I am very surprised the vet did not culture it to find out which bacterias(s) were present.
Some antibiotics work well on some strains and don't on others. As owners of livestock, we are primarily only interested in positive results, but the other side of the coin, is throwing antibiotics at unknown strains of infectious agents is one of the reasons we now have resistant strains of bacteria and ever increasing 'oversight' by govt entities.
There are 2 types of lumpy jaw.
Soft tissue lumpy jaw.
Bone related lumpy jaw.
The one your calf has is classic soft tissue lumpy jaw.  Almost all cattle soft tissue LJ is caused by _Actinobacillus_ bacteria, but not all. There doesn't have to be a specific puncture wound or bruise for a bovine to get soft tissue abscesses (ST lumpy jaw). The bacteria is normally present in soil and also normally present in the mouth of cattle. A very minor laceration or scratch is all that is needed inside the mouth or outside the jaw, tho the usual path for entry in both kinds is internal to the mouth and jaw areas. One of the problems with the infection, is that there is a connective tissue wall around the infected site. Early on, this wall prevents spread into the bloodstream, but it also prevents antibiotics in the blood stream from reaching the bacteria, which is the reason for lancing and specifically, for flushing out the abscess with iodine. It usually takes more than one flushing--several days apart.

This picture:





Appears that some fluid has oozed out of the abscess on to your clothing, and you are not wearing skin protection (disposable gloves). I urge you to reconsider this practice, especially regarding an infection that is being caused by an unknown antigen. Altho of the many strains of Actinobacillus, 
few are zoonotic between cattle and humans, but I always tend to be careful none-the-less.


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## cjc (Oct 7, 2016)

Thanks for the advice, I will be more careful. The vet said the abscess just wasn't bad enough to be of major concern. He said he sees this all the time on bottle calves. He said if it was that bacteria he would be acting different and he said all in all he is a very healthy calf. I did not separate him from the others so hopefully he isn't carrying anything, they all suck on the same grain bottle each day. He just seems to get better each day. Hopefully this will resolve entirely. I may give him another round of drugs. I tend to always double up the drugs on these guys. The vet doesn't always agree but ever since I started doing that I haven't lost one.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2016)

How is the abscess looking? Has it gone down considerably? Still draining? 

BTW- you know we love pictures!


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## cjc (Oct 7, 2016)

I do! I will get some more this weekend. I tried to get some this morning but it's so dark and gloomy here in the morning! Sun isn't coming up until around 7:30am and by that time I am driving to my day job.

It's not really draining no. I think ill get some gloves on and give it a more forceful squeeze just to make sure. Nothing really seems to come but its firm. Is definitely getting smaller though and his runs are gone, fever is down and he's a crazy calf again


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## TAH (Oct 11, 2016)

How's he doing @cjc?


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## cjc (Oct 12, 2016)

@TAH he's doing well thanks! I haven't managed to get a picture as I have been busy and my mom has been on the daylight shifts! But it's about 75% down in size and he's acting normal which is great. I held off on banding the little guy to give his infection time to heal but I think I may give him one more round of antibiotics (just to be safe) and band him


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 1, 2016)

Oh man my two week old Jersey calf has a lump. Same spot. Just seen.


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## cjc (Dec 1, 2016)

@Mikethepigman looks exactly like my calves! He was about a month old so not much older. Is your calf munching on grain or hay? The vet said this is really common! It's more than likely an abscess. Is the calf acting normal? 

The vet came lanced it and gave him antibiotics. I followed up the antibiotics 4 days later. I also cleaned it every bottle feeding with iodine and used a hot compress after with a little pressure to try and drain it for about a week and a half. Took awhile to fully go away but after a month it was tiny now it's completely gone. If you feel comfortable lancing it yourself I think that's ok I just wasn't. I would definitely administer antibiotics and check the calves temp. 

Oh I also gave electrolytes every day at noon for a week. That could have been over kill but I do that for all my sick bottle calves regardless of what kind of illness and especially one that's on antibiotics.


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 1, 2016)

Yes the bedding is a hay/ straw mix. Idk how the guy bales it like that but I got some. I've noticed there was prickly weeds in the mix also. I'd bet that's what did it but no real way to tell. Today they got new actual just straw bedding. I did see them nosing the bedding, did know that young calfs mouths were so fragile, fist time with calfs. However, learnt that one and now to move forward with my little buddy. By chance do you know what antibiotics he was giving them? I think I could lance it open, just not 100% on when and what angle. Maybe YouTube has video. He is feeding fine, gets around fine, acts fine, just has a lump. What temp should he be at? And how do I pull a temp?


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## cjc (Dec 1, 2016)

A normal temperature would be 101.5 or right around there. Just get a normal temperature gauge like the one that goes under your tongue and put it in the calfs bum . 

I can't remember the name of the antibiotic but if you go to your local vet that sells it they would be able to recommend one. I use resflor or nuflor for everything tho. 

Honestly if you haven't lanced before on your own I would call a vet. 

I use straw with shavings over top.


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 1, 2016)

Ah the Ol business end lol ok will do. I will look into the resflor and nuflor. I say never lanced but I have castrated a great number piglets and handy with a razor, just not on a calf or face..by chance do you remember what the vet bill was on something like that??


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2016)

cjc said:


> Honestly if you haven't lanced before on your own I would call a vet.



AND never allow contents or drainage on the ground. If it is one of the "bad" bacteria you can end up infecting a whole herd by contaminating and infecting the ground.


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## cjc (Dec 1, 2016)

My vet is crazy expensive! Cost me about $400! Well if you are handy with a razor go for it, I am not! When I get to my office in the morning where the invoice is I'll look up the antibiotic they prescribed and I'll Let you know. Give me until 9am PST. 

Bottle calves are very tough at times. I raised 8 this season and 2 got sick, not the best odds! 

When they are sick keep them hydrated and warm. Always have electrolytes on hand. If the get the runs always give electrolytes. The one thing I learnt is treat quickly when sick...it's crazy how fast they turn and how resilient they aren't at this age


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 1, 2016)

Ok yea I'd appreciate the info. These are my first four calfs. $160 for all four, figured it would be nice to have the calfs and wean them to resale. My one buddy told me to check the rear end, if it's dry feed them,if its wet treat them. Said nothing about lumps lol.at any rate sounds like I need to be on my toes with these four. @Southern by choice I think you've just help me decide to sit this one out and get a pro to handle it. Not so much worried about the lancing part, jist the biosecurity that needs to take place. I do thank the both you very much for all your help and advice. Tomorrow brings a new day and a new farm bill with a call to the vet lol @cjc whenever is fine for the info on the antibiotics, I work till 4. Not sure what time zone lol but can't be too far off yours. oh and by chance is any one calf starter better than the others??


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## babsbag (Dec 1, 2016)

@cjc I have been toying with the idea of raising a bottle calf since I will most likely have extra goat's milk for a while. Why do you think they are so hard to raise? Is it the feeding that they just don't really take to?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 1, 2016)

Mikethepigman said:


> Ok yea I'd appreciate the info. These are my first four calfs. $160 for all four, figured it would be nice to have the calfs and wean them to resale. My one buddy told me to check the rear end, if it's dry feed them,if its wet treat them. Said nothing about lumps lol.at any rate sounds like I need to be on my toes with these four. @Southern by choice I think you've just help me decide to sit this one out and get a pro to handle it. Not so much worried about the lancing part, jist the biosecurity that needs to take place. I do thank the both you very much for all your help and advice. Tomorrow brings a new day and a new farm bill with a call to the vet lol @cjc whenever is fine for the info on the antibiotics, I work till 4. Not sure what time zone lol but can't be too far off yours. oh and by chance is any one calf starter better than the others??


Sadly not all vets take Bio-security seriously and may lance it right where they stand.  It will be up to you to put a tarp down if they decide to lance, ask about bio-security and designate an area just in case they lance or it bursts. ALWAYS wear gloves when handling pus or other bodily fluids.

You'd be surprised how many vets have lanced goat abscesses that were CL and once that hits the ground that's it... it's there.
Hopefully this is just a prick from something and not "lumpy-jaw".
Lumpy jaw in other species is easy to treat and keep under control, much harder in cattle. 

Hope you let us all know the findings! Wishing for good news!


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 1, 2016)

I don't know what I'd do if some vet shows up and doesn't have any biosecurity plan and screws things up. Is prolly be in jail lol. That's sad though really that we as farmers trust the vet to do it right and one small thing can ruin the whole operation!! I did read about lumpy jaw, no cure from what I've read. Sure glad to have yalls insight!! Thanks again. And definitely will keep updating the news.


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## cjc (Dec 1, 2016)

@Mikethepigman i feed the highest quality grain they have at our local grain mill. It's called calf starter but there are 3 qualities, I feed the highest until 3 months old then I switch them over to the normal cow grain I feed the rest of the herd. By 3 months they are down to one bottle a day and fully eating hay and grain. I feed that one bottle until 4 months old. Now all the calf raisers I know wean at 2 months but I like to give them more time. 

Bottle calves are a lot of work but they are lovely! I bought 8 black angus x Holsteins this year. I got a nurse cow as well to offset the cost of the milk. 

I also wouldn't worry about lumpy jaw on this calf. It's more than likely an easily treatable abscess from the calf chewing on some straw or hay. 

Give your calves access to water, grain and good quality hay at all times. It will get them on it faster. At one week after each bottle when they are head butting you I start shoving grain in their mouths. Keep doing it until they walk away. Just shove it right in!


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## cjc (Dec 1, 2016)

@babsbag they are time consuming for sure. If they get sick they can get really sick really fast. You just have to be diligent with them. I had 3 that got scours this year. I bought them all from the same farm one had it a day after I got it. She was fine when I picked her up and it just goes around. I ended up treating 6 of my bottle calves for scours, just can get expensive. Once you get the hang of it, it gets easier and easier. But they are vulnerable. 

But they are wonderful. I wouldn't just get one they get lonely on their own. The reason I started with the bottle calves was one of my beef cows ended up giving me an orphan to raise. He was genuinely lonely! So I got one more, then 6 more because they are addicting! Try and get either a heifer from a dairy or a dairy x beef calf or if possible a beef calf. They will give you the best value at sale time. Also buy when they are under a week old. Sometimes when they are older they are sold bcs they are sick/weak or they were pulled from their dam. It's hard to take a calf off an udder and onto a bottle after the first few days


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## babsbag (Dec 1, 2016)

@cjc I would be raising one for my freezer which is so hard to do with a bottle anything but that is the way it is around here. But I believe in giving them the best life that I can while they are under my care.  It would most likely be a jersey bull calf from someone I know that owns a dairy. I know that it will have colostrum and be as healthy as possible. But I am clueless beyond that so if this comes to fruition I will put you and @farmerjan on speed dial. 

I have raised bottle fed kittens and goats and the kittens are a full time job. Oh my, are they a lot of work but so worth it....as one, all grown up,  is sleeping on the back of my chair right now.


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## cjc (Dec 2, 2016)

@Mikethepigman Hey! The drug was excenel. But if you read up in the posts @farmerjan also mentions the drug naxcel. I am sure both are fine, just use a wide spectrum long lasting antibiotic.

If you are going to pick up some meds if you haven't given these calves a nasal spray for pneumonia pick up some of that. I make sure all my calves, bottle fed or not get that young. It needs to be boostered so make sure you get enough.


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## farmerjan (Dec 2, 2016)

Excenel is the best overall drug of choice for something like  the abcess. And it has the shortest withdrawal time so that many also use it so that if they have to treat an animal that they have the option of selling it without having to keep it for a month or more.  Also, there are many that don't even need lancing, I rarely lance them.  If they burst on their own then I clean them and make sure they don't seal up so they heal from the inside out.  But they sometimes come up on calves that are on the cow too and it is usually a thorn or something that gets imbedded.   Maybe I sound too casual, but it isn't something that you just get overly excited about when you've seen them over the years.  I don't think that your vet was being too casual @cjc, just something that they see.  And although I can understand the concern about lumpjaw, it is very rare at least in this area.  Have seen only a couple of cases in over 40 years.  No I am not a vet, although I took vet tech so that I would be able to better deal with my own issues. 
I think that there might be more of an issue with CL in goats, than with cattle having an occasional lump/abcess .  It is not that uncommon in calves.
There is also the immunity factor, and that animals build up immunity to things through some exposure and through vaccination. This could just as easily go down in a week or two and you will never notice the difference. 
I would put him on a preventative antibiotic like excenel, or even of over the counter  pennicillin, for a couple of days and see what happens.
The big thing is - ALWAYS - watch the appetite and make sure they aren't scouring.  If they do, yes they can get very sick very fast because they will dehydrate.  Electrolytes are then the first line of defense.  We have actually put them on  an IV to get them rehydrated in the past.  But as long as this calf is eating and acting fine, I wouldn't go to electrolytes yet because you are then changing the composition of his stomach.  That changes the bacteria which can cause some other gastric problems.  And don't take away his hay, just try to make sure there aren't alot of prickery things in it.  That is why I always suggest something like 2nd or 3rd cutting orchard grass as a starter hay for calves as it is fine and "bladey" and easy for them to eat and digest.
Also, you can use hydrogen peroxide to clean it out with.  That is a great inexpensive, all purpose, anti-everything, to use.  The o2 means that it will kill everything as nothing can survive in a super oxygenated environment.  At a dilution of about 1 to 10 it is often used now by dairyman to clean and prep udders for their cows in the milking barn.  Kills the bacteria and they have lower overall somatic cell counts too.


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## farmerjan (Dec 2, 2016)

I also am adamantly against any vaccinations that are modified live.  I use only killed virus vaccinations.  One of my quirks.  I feel that if a virus can mutate...even though the modified live are supposed to be safe, what's to say they can't mutate????   Not supposed to.....but I don't trust it.  Give me the killed virus and do a second booster shot.  A very close vet friend and I absolutely DISAGREE on this subject;  he is very good at most things so we don't discuss this.


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## Green Acres Farm (Dec 2, 2016)

farmerjan said:


> Also, there are many that don't even need lancing, I rarely lance them. If they burst on their own then I clean them and make sure they don't seal up so they heal from the inside out.



But what if the abcess is from some bacteria that will stay in the soil pretty much forever?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 2, 2016)

That is an issue @Green Acres Farm *any animal with an abscess should be quarantined* until either it is lanced and cultured or bursts.

It may not contain _Actinomyces bovis _which is responsible for lumpy jaw but there are many other bacteria that are also very bad and highly contagious. Trueperella Pyogenes is another bad one... causing mastitis, abortion, pneumonia... and a whole host of other issues.


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## Green Acres Farm (Dec 2, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> That is an issue @Green Acres Farm *any animal with an abscess should be quarantined* until either it is lanced and cultured or bursts.


When our doe had an abcess we did just that. Quarantined her, drained it, cleaned it, and sent the abcess off for identification. It ended up being nothing, thankfully, but it sure scared us!


Southern by choice said:


> Sadly not all vets take Bio-security seriously


One vet we had come out took temps from 2 of our does. He did not disinfect the thermometer in between does, and did not clean it when he stuck it back into his pocket. I'm really worried that there could have been paratuberculosis bacteria on it. Am I right to be frustrated?


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## cjc (Dec 2, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> When our doe had an abcess we did just that. Quarantined her, drained it, cleaned it, and sent the abcess off for identification. It ended up being nothing, thankfully, but it sure scared us!
> 
> One vet we had come out took temps from 2 of our does. He did not disinfect the thermometer in between does, and did not clean it when he stuck it back into his pocket. I'm really worried that there could have been paratuberculosis bacteria on it. Am I right to be frustrated?



Our vet pregnancy checks our herd with the same glove! One after another haha. I always thought it was a little gross but assumed he knows what he is doing.

Our vet did not pull our calf away from the other calves when he drained the abscess. He told me it was no big deal and no harm to the other calves. When my calves get sick I always take them away from the herd until they recover but in this case the vet said I didn't need to. Not saying that's right at all just sorta odd he didn't worry about it. He told me if an abscess or lump on the jaw or around the mouth can be slid away from the bone and moved freely under the skin its not a bad one, if it cannot it's bad. Not sure how accurate that is.


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## cjc (Dec 6, 2016)

@Mikethepigman how is your calf coming along?


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 6, 2016)

Well been trying to get a picture but he won't stand for one lol. However I had a cow farmer that i know through a friend come by and get a better look. He said it wasn't nothing to lance and probably just hay or straw poked it. Idk how or why but it has gone down and is almost gone thankfully. I did panic lol not gonna lie. But after talking with all of you and him I can sleep at night. I probably should get blood work to make sure it's nothing. But yea golf ball size day and the next can't even really tell it was ever there. So clueless as to what or why still, but it's gone and calf doing good. Like the old saying " if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I was preparing myself for the worst tho. Had plans of making a box with a tarp to lance it open and burn afterwards. Definitely a whole nother world from pigs lol not a 100% on keeping or getting more. I think the few bucks for a weaned cow might be more up my alley. However I do kinda like the bottle feeding and the cuteness of the little buggers lol thanks again to everyone for the thoughts, information and words of know how.


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## Latestarter (Dec 6, 2016)

Hope you'll stick around, even though the "issue" became a non-issue    Most of us really enjoy following along with others on their journey(ies)  Sucks to cry with the losses, but a real joy to share the successes! Hope your little guy grows up to be a freezer full of tender meals for you


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## farmerjan (Dec 6, 2016)

Mikethepigman said:


> Well been trying to get a picture but he won't stand for one lol. However I had a cow farmer that i know through a friend come by and get a better look. He said it wasn't nothing to lance and probably just hay or straw poked it. Idk how or why but it has gone down and is almost gone thankfully. I did panic lol not gonna lie. But after talking with all of you and him I can sleep at night. I probably should get blood work to make sure it's nothing. But yea golf ball size day and the next can't even really tell it was ever there. So clueless as to what or why still, but it's gone and calf doing good. Like the old saying " if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I was preparing myself for the worst tho. Had plans of making a box with a tarp to lance it open and burn afterwards. Definitely a whole nother world from pigs lol not a 100% on keeping or getting more. I think the few bucks for a weaned cow might be more up my alley. However I do kinda like the bottle feeding and the cuteness of the little buggers lol thanks again to everyone for the thoughts, information and words of know how.



Most all the ones I have had in calves over the years have gone down in a week or less and only a couple have ever burst.  I know that there are alot of things out there that can cause problems, but I just think that sometimes it's better to just ride it out a little and not get too upset, and see if nature will take care of it.   I'm very glad that it went down on it's own and as quickly as it did.  Sometimes we are too quick to try to fix things.  After countless bottle calves, I may even be a little lax,  but I can tell when something is not right and will jump on it.  Lumps, not so much unless they are there for more than a week or two.  Glad you could get someone local with experience to look at it too.


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## Bossroo (Dec 7, 2016)

Some of those "abcesses " are actually swollen lymph nodes  just like when you and I are not feeling well and get swollen lymph nodes on our lower jaw.


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## cjc (Dec 7, 2016)

@Mikethepigman Glad to hear the calf is doing well! Bottle calves can be tricky but as soon as you get into the swing of things if you are anything like me you will start collecting them haha. I have been called the "crazy calf lady" a time or two! Good luck with them!


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 7, 2016)

Well with these being my first and sure more to come... One day lol I'd rather have problems out the gate and learn than get comfortable with 20 and then all hell breaks loose and I up poo creek with no paddle. They were $40 each and I was gonna lose a calf, witch we all hope and pray we don't, I'd rather a $40 calf and not a $200 calf. Overall I think I done good. But definitely wouldn't have done good with yalls help. We have had day old goats in house cause momma didn't want it, we had runt piglets bottle feeding in the house. By no means are we worried about going the mile to save a life. Just a first timer that's broadening my horizons into more animals lol babies are just to darn cute!!!


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## cjc (Dec 7, 2016)

@Mikethepigman get your camera out and show us pictures of these cuties! haha. Calves are like any animal you are raising of course. But you have to start accumulating the stuff to deal with them! That's probably the worst part. This year I spent way more than I made but next year ill be prepared for whatever those little buggers bring to me.


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 7, 2016)

Yep know the feeling all to well with pigs, first litter all died, was not ready. It was well about this time last year. However I had four piglets on milk replacer. So I did what anyone would and put the piglets on the sow. She took to them, they took to her and she is still at our farm even tho she only gives us 7 piglets( witch is under par) but I know that I can put her in a pen and she will do everything!!  Now that a year has passed I have figured alot out about farrowing and pigs. Hopefully this year I can do the same with calfs!! Oh and goats love them little ones!!


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## farmerjan (Dec 7, 2016)

I can well understand your feelings towards the sow that only has 7.  My first sow was a white ugly thing bought at the monthly feeder pig sale years ago.  She had 5 or 6 ,  one looked like a belted Hampshire.  It was a female so we kept it and sold the sow and the other pigs at weaning.  Called the hamp "Daffy" because she sounded more like a quack than an oink.  She was the start of my sow herd.  Never had more than 8 pigs, every one alive, raised every one, never laid on a pig and she was always allowed to go out loose on the big farm and usually made a nest partway under a round bale of hay.  Every single one of her daughters had a minimum of 11, and most 12 - 14.  Only had 1 granddaughter that was mean and she'd get you.  She raised the one litter, they were all sold when weaned and she went too.  I cried when Daffy got too old and wouldn't breed.
Am really glad that it turned out to be a minor issue.  And I didn't think about the swollen lymph nodes, which it could have been too.  Yep better to have a "minor problem" early on and get your feet wet.  Luckily calves are alot cheaper than they used to be so WHEN , not if, you do lose one somewhere down the road, it won't be a devastating financial loss.  It doesn't matter some are just not meant to live, and you can stand on your head and spit wooden nickels, and sometimes they die.  We all have lost an animal or two and it isn't from neglect  or poor management.  It happens.


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## Mikethepigman (Dec 7, 2016)

We call her "momma"  and I hope she has a good litter here soon. She's just a Yorkshire, but my boar is Hampshire/Yorkshire cross. He came from an auction. I got started in pigs by buying and selling piglets. My first month I took $100 and turned it in to $2000. Had a set price to sell and wasn't afraid to travel for piglets.  Well one of the farms I go to to get piglets had a boar 2 weeks old and it had a solid black head and white body. I wanted it soooooo bad! Well it ended up not making it to weaning. However the next week or so the farmer had some auction pigs. And it was fate cause there stood a breeding size boar with a black head and white body. If I wouldn't have seen him, he woulda ended up on the dinner table for somebody. First few weeks he got shots and didnt seem to like humans. Now... I can walk him ten thousand miles if I wanted, he's such a big baby lol only weighs about 600 lbs. When I got him he was prolly 300 lbs. or so. My pigs have it pretty good around here, farrowing pens are 12x12 or 10x20 and the breeding pen is 32x40, only have 10 pigs and not everyone is in the same pen at time so everyone has room to be a happy go lucky pig lol my Duroc gilt died in farrowing and that had me about tears, her piglets were to big. She was my first Duroc. Red was her name, I could get in her pen and sit down and rub on her and she liked it. So of course had get another one lol, one wasn't enuff got two lol. One of these days ima have 20 or more sow's and the goal is to have about 320 piglets a year to sell and or raise to butcher. The market has me worried right now tho cause pork is horribly low... But if the market is down... Only one way it can go and that's back up so now's the time to buy and pray it gonna good decision lol heres a pic of momma's last 7. it was soooooo cool that one piglet looked just like her and one looked just like him. little piglets are just so fun to watch lol


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## cjc (Dec 8, 2016)

My goodness how sweet! Piglets are so adorable! The first time I got piglets I planned to keep one. Then she grew into a pig haha. Needless to say I did not keep her!

We had a cow on the farm that was really just a lawn ornament but she did good for the other calves. Sometimes they just earn their place whether they are good producers or not!

And yes, I lost my first calf just like you lost your first litter. I was devastated! But it taught me a lot. Even though I hated to hear it my good friend who runs a ton of cattle said "sometimes you have to kill one to learn how to not kill the others". Haven't lost one since.


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