# How To Make Hay Stretch



## rachels.haven (Oct 1, 2020)

Alright guys, it's a drought/off weather year where I live. My hay guy advised me to gather as much hay as I can even if it's not from him because come March he thinks it's going to be a bloodbath in New England and second cutting goat/horse hay is already getting short. How do I make hay stretch and waste as little as possible?

Our first cutting was fairly nice this year, and is now all sold and gone. Sub freezing temps have already come to the area so the prime growing/drying time is almost done if not all done.

Next load of hay to put up will probably be round bales under one of the barn wings, btw, but even those are limited right now.

So far we're feeding a #10 can scoop of alfalfa pellets to each pen with a little grain in addition to normal haying to take a bit of weight off the stuff I'm going to run out of as it's something that tends to not (and it is normal to run out of hay over the winter here, and this is an abnormally bad year for us and the surrounding area as far as drought goes). What else can I do? Anyone have any good tricks? Is hay stretcher something that works for goats and can keep them in good shape as a dietary supplement in moderation? Any other feed additions? We will have several dwarf and lamancha does in milk, bucks, and kids as they come as far as life stages/dietary needs go.

Edited to add: To clarify hay man is out of the hay he has available for sale for the year, so getting more from him is not an option. The round bales would come from elsewhere.


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## Mini Horses (Oct 1, 2020)

There will be a LOT of people in this situation.  Doesn't help YOU but, don't feel alone.

So -- goats & cows do better with some long stem product....they need to regurgitate and the pellets provide nutrition galore but, not long stem.   Where ever you are getting the rounds --buy all xtra you can afford.  If you luck out and don't need it -- you WILL have eager buyers.

So, there is also beet pulp.  Maybe you can find some silage?  That's not for horses -- and if you have those -- complete feed can be used and they do fine...it's BP & alfalfa bases.   Anyone have oat hay?  Do you have any wooded areas?  they will eat leaves, acorn, sprouts, etc to with their fiber needs.   Yes, I have used hay stretcher...basically it's finer ground stems & bulky stuff.

Waste -- aaaahhhhh we ARE talking about goats and they DO WASTE.  Limit amounts available at one time if possible.  use a screen they have to just pull some thru -- say 4X4 fence, or keyholes in a board so they reach to hay outside their stall and can't pull so much out.  We know if it hits the floor, it's toast, pretty much.

Here I can get bags of p-nut hulls from a sheller...plus p-nut vines.   I can grow greens, turnips, winter wheat, etc. most of year.  That helps.   It takes some thought. You may have to increase the grains a little...and ration stemmy.  Can you grow any winter wheat in your pastures?  AND what about sprouts?  Grains can be sprouted, providing good forage and nutrition.
Lot of work but....

Mine won't get free choice all winter -- feed waste.  But will get grains and 3X day stem factors. 

Everyone chime in!!!


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## rachels.haven (Oct 1, 2020)

They do totally need that long stem forage. I really don't want to go hayless so I feel the need to start stretching soon or now to make what I can get go farther. So beet pulp, hay stretcher, alfalfa pellets can all be useful in making that bale go farther once the waste issue can't be reduced any more? And splitting hay into meals to help prevent sorting and waste? (and round bales are probably coming then)

They'll continue grazing until the frost kills off the brush. No real pasture here, just trees.


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## Beekissed (Oct 1, 2020)

If you can collect pumpkins from people after they are done using them for decoration, along with winter gourds, you can let them freeze and thaw until they are soft and fermenting....this is like crack cocaine for hair sheep, so might be so for your goats also.  Lots of nutrition and even some deworming action with that feed source.   

Corn stalks and shucks....my sheep LOVE those come mid winter when they can't get their regular brush.  I store mine and let them eat them around Jan/Feb.  You may be able to collect corn stalks/shucks from people you know, people who used them for decorations, etc. and feed them out later on.  Its good roughage that helps balance the rumen and helps them digest more completely the other foods they are eating.  

Maybe make this next hay baling into haylage instead, which should provide more nutrition per bale.


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## Baymule (Oct 2, 2020)

Whatever you choose to feed as a hay substitute, might stock up on it. Everyone else will have the same idea as you do. Beet shreds are good. is there any cedar or pines that you could trim branches from? 

Where we used to live, we had 16 acres where we kept our horses. During the 2011-2012 drought, I walked the woods and cut off yaupon branches and took them to the horses. I just about cleared the yaupon off the place!


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## Beekissed (Oct 2, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Whatever you choose to feed as a hay substitute, might stock up on it. Everyone else will have the same idea as you do. Beet shreds are good. is there any cedar or pines that you could trim branches from?
> 
> Where we used to live, we had 16 acres where we kept our horses. During the 2011-2012 drought, I walked the woods and cut off yaupon branches and took them to the horses. I just about cleared the yaupon off the place!



Bay has a good idea.  Some farmers are turning back the clock and harvesting tree fodder or tree "hay" and feeding it to their cattle.  Poplar leaves are the most nutritious, by all accounts.  If you could harvest some now before the colors turn, you could preserve all that good chlorophyll for later in the winter.  









						Tree Leaf Fodder for Livestock - Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners
					

For 8,000 years, livestock ingested and bedded in tree leaves, thus concentrating carbon, nitrogen, minerals and microbial life wherever humans settled.




					www.mofga.org
				








__





						Tree Hay: A forgotten fodder
					

A short histor




					www.agricology.co.uk
				








__





						Tree Leaf Fodder for Livestock: Transitioning Farm Woodlots to ‘Air Meadow’ for Climate Resilience - SARE Grant Management System
					






					projects.sare.org


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## Mini Horses (Oct 3, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Corn stalks and shucks....my sheep LOVE those



My goats are not thrilled with these.  The like them fresh, not dried.  But haven't saved many for winter use.  If no fresh grass, may be more appealing.   But, they prefer me to deliver hay!   The will eat a few pieces mixed in .... not as interesting straight.

They do love fresh, young holly leaves.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 3, 2020)

Are there any pines?  Oh yes, but they are over 50 feet tall with 4' diameter. I would need a bigger chainsaw. Not out of the question. We WILL get by and do something.

We don't have a horse, btw. I just always say "horse quality" when buying dairy goat hay or we get pretty bad stuff, unusable. Goats don't exactly eat tin cans and shouldn't have mold. I'm not even sure cows should even though "cow hay" usually means the moldy musty stuff here.


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## Beekissed (Oct 3, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> Are there any pines?  Oh yes, but they are over 50 feet tall with 4' diameter. I would need a bigger chainsaw. Not out of the question. We WILL get by and do something.
> 
> We don't have a horse, btw. I just always say "horse quality" when buying dairy goat hay or we get pretty bad stuff, unusable. Goats don't exactly eat tin cans and shouldn't have mold. I'm not even sure cows should even though "cow hay" usually means the moldy musty stuff here.



My hair sheep PREFER horrible, rotten, moldy hay...eat it like candy!   They turn up their noses at good, horse quality hay and waste it on the ground, trying to pick through it to get to the bad stuff.  Go figure.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 3, 2020)

Dang @Beekissed . Those are some cool sheep. Maybe they think it's silage or have more "refined" tastes like people with wine or cheese or bread, lol.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 3, 2020)

I need one ton of your finest "truffle hay". -sincerely, the hair sheep.


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## Baymule (Oct 3, 2020)

My sheep don't go for the rotten hay, they like the good stuff.


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## messybun (Oct 3, 2020)

There have been some great suggestions already. We went through similar a few years ago and couldn’t hay from anywhere! I just learned about winter forage like two weeks ago, but I don’t know if that’s a possibility for you. Anyway, what we did was get straw, and trees for the goats to strip. The thinking was basically anything to keep the rumens moving and we could supplement nutrition from there. We even ran out of local corn, which like never happens, and ended up having to buy some from tsc. But corn, straw, bark, and a tiny bit of hay (it was whatever we could get in the green bags from the feed store, super expensive) got our goats through the rest of winter. But I would not suggest it unless you have no other options!


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## Beekissed (Oct 4, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> Dang @Beekissed . Those are some cool sheep. Maybe they think it's silage or have more "refined" tastes like people with wine or cheese or bread, lol.



Personally I think they are just contrary beasts.   The first year I had them I paid big money for the best hay around and oh, that hay was beautiful and green, soft and fragrant, full of leafy goodness!   They pulled it out, stepped on it and pooped on it.    

Meanwhile, over along the fence line I had a massive stack of hay bales that were~and this is true, as hard as it is to believe~almost 40 yrs old.   They had been in the top of an old barn that an old guy was wanting to get emptied out, so I got them to put on the garden as mulch.   Couldn't believe the twine wasn't too dry rotted to even move them, but it wasn't.   The hay looked like old straw by then, moldy and extremely dusty.  Couldn't have had an ounce of nutrition in it.  

Covered it with a tarp and left it there all summer, fall and winter.  About mid-winter I saw a sheep standing out there with it's head stuck up under that tarp, so went to investigate.  Those sheep had eaten a huge shelf out of that stack!   To top it all, the neighbor's cows broke down our ancient fence to also get a chance at that stack and were eating on the other side of it all that time.   ICK.


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## Grant (Oct 4, 2020)

I went to get my winters need of hay before It was too late.  I have a good supply as long as they have some.  I didn’t get a chance to work mine off this year.  Had to pay up.  But if we get no more growth, getting more likely everyday, I’ll be feeding until spring.  I’m feeding hay now due to drought.   I brought everything I need to the house today.  I’ll supplement with grain and protein lick tubs.


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## Baymule (Oct 5, 2020)

Y'all that are facing shortages due to drought, hang in there. @Grant and @rachels.haven y'all are wise to beat the stampede that is coming as people who didn't stock in go crazy.


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## Azurecowgoat (Oct 11, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Y'all that are facing shortages due to drought, hang in there. @Grant and @rachels.haven y'all are wise to beat the stampede that is coming as people who didn't stock in go crazy.


Why the upcoming hay shortage? Is it because of the virus? Or the drought? I'm new here.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 11, 2020)

Nope. Some areas of the country had a drought during the growing season for what seemed like most of the growing season this year. Plus my personal area's soil is thin, rocky, and doesn't hold water well, which made it worse. Our lawn is not a hay field, but to illustrate the point this year we mowed our lawn once TOTAL and it was thin, scraggly, and more to even it up. I'm just glad the east didn't catch fire (very much) like the west did this year.


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## Beekissed (Oct 12, 2020)

Azurecowgoat said:


> Why the upcoming hay shortage? Is it because of the virus? Or the drought? I'm new here.



Due to both, I imagine.  Many people, in a kneejerk reaction to supply line disruption in stores of meat, dairy and eggs, hurried into getting small livestock this spring, so now there are more people buying hay and feed this fall than there were before.   

Then, we've had an ongoing drought for most of the summer and now extending into fall, so a lot of areas that grew hay and sold it didn't get as many cuttings as they normally do.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 12, 2020)

Unfortunately in Mass (and VT and NY I'm told), it's not because of the virus. We got first cutting late because of late spring, then lack of rain and most sold out of what they got fast. Second cutting wasn't even made by many farmers this year because it would not grow without consistent moisture, so we effectively have right about half as much hay produced here as normal. Now it's cold and has frosted in some areas already by a week or two. Things will need to be trucked in, but other neighboring, and some not so neighboring places droughted too, so things will probably not look good and will run out even at the higher, brought in prices. Haying appears to be a fairly safe profession here as far as covid goes. Wish that made a difference to drought.


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## Azurecowgoat (Oct 12, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> Unfortunately in Mass (and VT and NY I'm told), it's not because of the virus. We got first cutting late because of late spring, then lack of rain and most sold out of what they got fast. Second cutting wasn't even made by many farmers this year because it would not grow without consistent moisture, so we effectively have right about half as much hay produced here as normal. Now it's cold and has frosted in some areas already by a week or two. Things will need to be trucked in, but other neighboring, and some not so neighboring places droughted too, so things will probably not look good and will run out even at the higher, brought in prices. Haying appears to be a fairly safe profession here as far as covid goes. Wish that made a difference to drought.


Jeez! I'm probably getting some goats next year, do you think it will stil be so bad?


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## rachels.haven (Oct 12, 2020)

Nope. Every year is different. What's your state?


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## Azurecowgoat (Oct 16, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> Nope. Every year is different. What's your state?
> [/QUOT]Massachusetts


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## rachels.haven (Oct 16, 2020)

Watch your area craigslists for a feel for what prices are doing. Ask for info (hay gossip) at the local small feed stores. I'm in the north central part of the state. If you're close enough to me I can give you fall back places to get hay from to check if they haven't sold out yet. I am certainly watching.


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## Azurecowgoat (Oct 16, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> Watch your area craigslists for a feel for what prices are doing. Ask for info (hay gossip) at the local small feed stores. I'm in the north central part of the state. If you're close enough to me I can give you fall back places to get hay from to check if they haven't sold out yet. I am certainly watching.


I'm around Amherst


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## rachels.haven (Oct 16, 2020)

If Amherst, Ma, my sources wouldn't cover you. You're about an hour and a half away, but if you don't have the goats yet, maybe don't get any until you have some put up? You could probably get some now and save it. There will probably be plenty of goats for sale as winter progresses for you to pick up a nice couple.


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## Baymule (Oct 16, 2020)

rachels.haven said:


> If Amherst, Ma, my sources wouldn't cover you.* You're about an hour and a half away*, but if you don't have the goats yet, maybe don't get any until you have some put up? You could probably get some now and save it. There will probably be plenty of goats for sale as winter progresses for you to pick up a nice couple.




Is an hour and half a long way?


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## Mini Horses (Oct 16, 2020)

I go that far for chickens.   😁


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## rachels.haven (Oct 17, 2020)

Hay men won't go that far without a very large order and a steep price here. The roads are narrow and winding, I guess? I'd be happy to pm @Azurecowgoat my contacts, but I've had a heck of a time getting hay from anyone over an hour for less than $11-12/bale for second cutting (goat/ horse hay) not by the semi load. Plus, I can't store 700 something bales. I bet one could store that much get hay one could get it.


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## Azurecowgoat (Oct 17, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Is an hour and half a long way?


Not really, but there are a lot of farms around me so getting hay closer would be easier.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 17, 2020)

Id check with them first, obviously. Find a good one and let them talk about hay (I LOVE hay) and how the growing conditions were compared to normal, and the drought. If you have any storage space, feel free to put some up while the putting is good if you're planning on getting goating soon. It's not Feb yet!


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## Baymule (Oct 17, 2020)

For square bales, I have never had delivery, we just hitch up the trailer and go get them. If there was no hay available locally, an hour and half would be nothing. In the 2011 drought, we drove several hours to get square bales.


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## Mini Horses (Oct 17, 2020)

Me too.  I pick up 99% of the time.   Many years back I had a load delivered  & they unloaded!!  Since it was 300 or so bales it was worth  the little they charged.  That option became very costly as their fees increased.  Come to think about it -- it was also THE most beautiful hay I've ever been able to buy.  Orchard from out west, green and wonderful.  After that year there was an economy issue for years, gas almost $5 a gal and so on.   I still dream about that hay!   😁    now I don't buy that much at a time.

Reminds me, need to ask if/when they are getting those big squares....like 700#.   I don't even take those off the trailer, unless I break them up first.  Easier to dole out than pulling from a round.


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## Nao57 (Oct 23, 2020)

So I'm curious...

The original post said that his hay guy was out already for the year.

They don't normally run out do they? And if they did when would they normally run out compared to where they ran out in this case? 

And are other guys going out also? 

And... this is somewhat related but last year when the Midwest flooding flushed Nebraska and Iowa down the toilet hay prices sky rocketed then also. I remember seeing ads for people selling bales of hay in Ohio for over 75 bucks. (I don't remember if that was the price for the big ones or the small ones.) 

Anyway...where I'm going with this is that there has been a few near misses already.

But i have to tell you the biggest problem with this is that people are going to end up colliding with each other if there's really food and agriculture food shortages. People in this country have never really known going without before, and they are too used to the idea of 'I can be the one that wins' to cooperate with others. If you actually told them that they would rather conquer than fight because society is so weaponized. 

And one aspect of this is that people don't trust the Communist run UN (ran by China behind the scenes) in what the UN has been saying about food shortages.


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## Nao57 (Oct 23, 2020)

So ...something else about this topic. Not everyone reading this is used to storing hay. 

Please be careful about fire risks on storing hay. 

I have relatives that work in moving and storing hay and the irony is that the company they were working with has had fires from the hay storage...but not from heat; rather from the chemical reaction of moisture getting in hay.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 23, 2020)

Yes, hay guy is out of hay for the year. He doesn't usually run out of first cutting ever, but everyone bought that up not long after it was cut because of the drought. Second doesn't typically run out with him until December or so, but this year it was out even sooner after it was cut, literally fresh off the field. My local craigslist doesn't have much hay on it either, so yes, it is in scant supply. The few ads that are there are disappearing fast. The feed stores are doing good business right now with resale, but I get the impression they will run out very soon. They are usually out of second in January.

In the meantime, I found a feed store a bit farther away that is bigger but always tries to have hay to the point of trucking it from all over. Pricier, and not my favorite mix, but we will use it for now and leave the loft hay alone. It is very dry and ventilated up there so I am not very worried about fire. The hay was also checked one bale at a time for dryness, mold, and no uncommon heaviness before being pulled up. It's also stacked as correctly as I know how so there is plenty of ventilation.


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## Mini Horses (Oct 23, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> The original post said that his hay guy was out already for the year.
> 
> They don't normally run out do they? And if they did when would they normally run out compared to where they ran out in this case?
> 
> And are other guys going out also?



One of the issues for all farmers --- WEATHER!  

May get one cutting, or three.   May get late cut, not great hay.  Flood, drought,  equipment issues, etc.    So you do not know what you will get UNTIL you get it.    Then, soon as hay buyers hear of the problems of harvest, they buy what is out there.

So this should answer all the questions for you......it's a crap shoot.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 23, 2020)

Yep, that's farming for you.


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## farmerjan (Oct 23, 2020)

I cringe to tell you that we are going to bush hog one place we would normally make hay on because we have way more than we can use.... and because we don't know if there will be enough of a  "window" of weather,  to make much more.  
It is really all due to the weather.  
And fires in hay start because there is moisture in a bale because the grass is not cured enough to be baled.  The hay gets compressed hard and that causes heating.  If it is "green enough" it will cause it to smolder and ignite.  It will not catch fire if it gets wet from rain type moisture... it has to be the grass was not dried down to a point where it will not cause it to heat.  Sometimes it will just get moldy,  but a few "green damp" bales stacked tightly in storage, will cause a fire from the heating of the hay.  We have seen some of big round bales "get  hot " and actually catch on fire too.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 23, 2020)

Aw, don't cringe too much. Hay is one of those things that needs to be where it is needed. It's bulky to ship and store and costs gas and labor all along the way. Fire is serious, not just for bales compressed and put into storage, but for hay left in the field if it can't be cut. Bush hogging for next year's quality as well as this year's fire safety is not a bad thing.

That's still really unfortunate though. Darn cold, wet weather. It sounds like you'll be all tight and set up yourself though.


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## messybun (Oct 23, 2020)

Not the point of this thread I know, but how do you properly stack hay?


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## rachels.haven (Oct 23, 2020)

As far as I understand it's supposed to go criss cross by layers with an air gap between bales for airflow. Like rotating = signs. I also like to put the cut side facing outside of the stack and not inside, but that may just be me. That could be totally irrelevant or wrong.


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## farmerjan (Oct 23, 2020)

Technically hay should be stacked on the "cut side" down... so the strings are not on the top where you grab it.  but on the side.  For the first layer.  So I have been told since I was a kid by every person that we ever got hay from for my horse and for eveyone I ever helped up north.  Down here... not so much.  And we do not put any space inbetween bales.  They are packed as tight as we can get them in the loft.  If there is a fire, hay that is stacked with air will create a hotter fire than hay that is packed tight as that will smolder first.  But again.... if it is properly dried... that is not a problem.  The biggest problem in the east is getting hay made when it is humid.... that will cause more problems than anything else.  That is why I have been so thrilled with the last 2 windows for hay making late this fall.... clear, dry weather, no humidity.  The fog in the mornings burns off but the grasses "expire" and the moisture is drawn out of the hay with the lack of humidity.  That is why hay made out west is so superior in quality.  They irrigate, get it grown well, and then have all that dry weather to get it cut, dried and baled.  They don't lose the color which adds to the nutritional level too... it doesn't bleach out because it doesn't have to lay for days in a hot sun but with high moisture.


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## farmerjan (Oct 23, 2020)

We do alternate our rows... all one way then switch and all the opposite.  It makes for a tighter stack and less likely to come down.  Like interlocking blocks.


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## thistlebloom (Oct 23, 2020)

We pack ours close when we stack, mostly because it used to be a space issue. Jan's right about the aridity out west here. Sometimes we get a rainy summer which must make the hay farmers sleepless, but usually we are dry from June to late September. Very low humidity. I'm pretty sure only the alfalfa is irrigated. There is alfalfa, oat, barley, timothy . brome, orchard and mixed grasses available.

I had my hay delivered and stacked this year which was a treat. Dh is allergic and it makes him miserable. The guys that delivered alternated direction every two rows. And they did place the cut ends up on the bottom row.


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## rachels.haven (Oct 24, 2020)

Hmm, time to change habits, I suppose. I put more stock in the various people here than people who have stacked my hay or told me how to do it before (or the internet). Thank you!


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## Baymule (Oct 24, 2020)

I get 40-50 square bales for those times when my hay guy can't get a round bale delivered. We buy the hay, since we don't have a tractor big enough to handle a round bale, he brings it to us as needed. Sometimes, things happen, like all the tractors being out in the field, he goes on vacation or this year, he had Covid. So I fill in with square bales. I stack them tight, alternating which way they lay, just as described above. As the stack goes higher, I build steps to lug the bales higher.


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## Nao57 (Oct 24, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> We do alternate our rows... all one way then switch and all the opposite.  It makes for a tighter stack and less likely to come down.  Like interlocking blocks.



And don't forget to keep a cat nearby to eat all the mice hiding in the spaces


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## rachels.haven (Oct 24, 2020)

Dang, loose, randomly sized bales don't stack that way. If I ever get nice, consistent, tight bales I will stack them correctly.


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## farmerjan (Oct 24, 2020)

We don't always get the most consistent sized bales, so we have learned to "mix and match" with the varying lengths.  Not that they are that much difference, but some just pack tighter... it is also dependent on the type hay that is baled...First cutting hay will bale more consistently than 2nd cutting orchard grass.  Stiffer stems will pack in a sq baler better.... Lots of little things that the average person has no clue about.  And I am not saying that to be a smart a$$... people just don't know these things.... If the hay is good and dry, then stack the best way that you can get them stuffed in there.  No one is grading you  on the stacking job !!


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## rachels.haven (Oct 24, 2020)

Like building a rock wall? No worries, no smart donkery suspected. Sounds like a challenge. 

The bales that did side stack properly made more stable stacks. This is my using rather than saving hay so I'll get to unpack them in the next few weeks. I suspect they will be less smushed as logic says the bales would stay more structurally sound stacked that way now that I think about it. I suspect a lot of them not stacking is a green stacker error.

My bales are also a bit pre-smushed. They may need to be encouraged back into shape, which might be able to be done better with practice. 
I'll get the loft stacked that way next year if the hay is nice and dry. You can stretch your hay and/or you can stretch your storage space. Stacking tight on the side may help stretch space and make stretching hay less of a necessity.


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## farmerjan (Oct 25, 2020)

Just to clarify, we only stack the bottom row on end.... then the rest are stacked "flat" with the strings up to grab easily.... but we do alternate  direction every row..... but again, will work around any obstructions like an upright post or something.   The cut side down on the bottom row has to do with how it breathes ???? I do notice that if you stack with the bottom row flat, and they are there for a few years, the bottom row tends to smell musty.  It seems to accumulate the dampness when flat but not when on end... Makes no sense to me except that the flat side is tighter and doesn't breathe like the edge side.


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## Nao57 (Oct 25, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> Just to clarify, we only stack the bottom row on end.... then the rest are stacked "flat" with the strings up to grab easily.... but we do alternate  direction every row..... but again, will work around any obstructions like an upright post or something.   The cut side down on the bottom row has to do with how it breathes ???? I do notice that if you stack with the bottom row flat, and they are there for a few years, the bottom row tends to smell musty.  It seems to accumulate the dampness when flat but not when on end... Makes no sense to me except that the flat side is tighter and doesn't breathe like the edge side.



XD

What's the right way to stack the mice in between the bales?


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## Mini Horses (Oct 25, 2020)

MY animals do not care how tight, which way, I stack.  They don't offer to help nor do they condemn the effort.   They DO complain loudly if I do not supply at least some of the goods to them, so they can munch while I work!   😁   

AND -- no matter how good the baler, how tight the bales, as they age there will be just a touch of loosening.  Now, if it was loose to begin, holly cow -- it's all over when you grab those strings....literally, hay all over the place.  

With 8 cats, not many mice around here any more.   Seems to have helped with the snakes arriving, too.   I'm loving it.


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## Nao57 (Oct 25, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> MY animals do not care how tight, which way, I stack.  They don't offer to help nor do they condemn the effort.   They DO complain loudly if I do not supply at least some of the goods to them, so they can munch while I work!   😁
> 
> AND -- no matter how good the baler, how tight the bales, as they age there will be just a touch of loosening.  Now, if it was loose to begin, holly cow -- it's all over when you grab those strings....literally, hay all over the place.
> 
> ...



Wow that's so awesome. You have so many cats they'll be eating each other instead of the mice! What great fun to watch.

Are any of your cats black cats? XD Its funny that everyone likes black cats.


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## Mini Horses (Oct 25, 2020)

None are black.   Most are grey tabby or solid gray -- all with white trim.    Related...mom, kittens.   One of the eight is my sons cat but, on my payroll.   He never misses a meal!  He is a lovely white with only a couple spots, blue eyes.    Not the hunter they are but he has his place.

YES -- I feed them 2X a day.  If you want them to hunt, keep them well.  It does not make them stop hunting just because you feed them.    I do not leave it out 24/7.  That can draw unwanted feeders.  A couple like to mosey over to the coops, they do get mice there as the chickens don't eat all of their feed.....mice know.   Several frequent the barns, all around the house, yard, etc..  they have their rounds.  They were taught to hunt.  The mom is from a barn cat family. More cats  than I've had in years past but, it seems to take them to keep rodents at bay.   There are cropped fields on either side of me.   Corn this year -- oh my....mice & corn!   While I don't want more, this past 2 years has been really good with them here...rarely have a mouse in the house now....and few in the barns.


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## Nao57 (Oct 26, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> None are black.   Most are grey tabby or solid gray -- all with white trim.    Related...mom, kittens.   One of the eight is my sons cat but, on my payroll.   He never misses a meal!  He is a lovely white with only a couple spots, blue eyes.    Not the hunter they are but he has his place.
> 
> YES -- I feed them 2X a day.  If you want them to hunt, keep them well.  It does not make them stop hunting just because you feed them.    I do not leave it out 24/7.  That can draw unwanted feeders.  A couple like to mosey over to the coops, they do get mice there as the chickens don't eat all of their feed.....mice know.   Several frequent the barns, all around the house, yard, etc..  they have their rounds.  They were taught to hunt.  The mom is from a barn cat family. More cats  than I've had in years past but, it seems to take them to keep rodents at bay.   There are cropped fields on either side of me.   Corn this year -- oh my....mice & corn!   While I don't want more, this past 2 years has been really good with them here...rarely have a mouse in the house now....and few in the barns.



That is really cool! Thank you for telling me about it. 

And you know many people wish their cats were mousers. 

Its interesting how people can harness a better life using the power of animals to replace sweat equity.


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## Finnie (Oct 26, 2020)

I miss my 12 year old kitty. But I don’t think he was catching very many mice during his last year of life. His brother died a year before he did, and that’s when we noticed the mouse population start to pick up. But I know the 12 year old was still catching baby rabbits, because he would leave the back leg halves laying around uneaten. Also since he died, the chipmunks and ground squirrels have gotten bolder. I see them right out in the open now. 

My husband has been trialing all sorts of mouse trap contraptions. He doesn’t like cats scratching his truck and throwing up on it, so he’s hoping he can control mice on his own without cats. I’m in no hurry to replace my cats anyway. Starting over with new ones won’t be the same. But I hope he gives the ok on it in the spring.


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## Nao57 (Oct 26, 2020)

Finnie said:


> I miss my 12 year old kitty. But I don’t think he was catching very many mice during his last year of life. His brother died a year before he did, and that’s when we noticed the mouse population start to pick up. But I know the 12 year old was still catching baby rabbits, because he would leave the back leg halves laying around uneaten. Also since he died, the chipmunks and ground squirrels have gotten bolder. I see them right out in the open now.
> 
> My husband has been trialing all sorts of mouse trap contraptions. He doesn’t like cats scratching his truck and throwing up on it, so he’s hoping he can control mice on his own without cats. I’m in no hurry to replace my cats anyway. Starting over with new ones won’t be the same. But I hope he gives the ok on it in the spring.



I didn't know that cats throwing up on a truck was a thing. 

Maybe like a teenage hazing ritual for comparison? 

The water bucket mouse trap is pretty good also; you can find it on youtube. Sometimes people hook up recording devices on it. 

Am I understanding you right...that your cat was hunting baby rabbits? I didn't even know that was possible because of their size being so similar on a species level. Amazing. 

The cost of cat food and dog food can sometimes be a turnoff. Our cat food expense sky rockets a lot because my brother won't buy his own dog food and then waits till we're looking the other way to use it for his dog. And I think this happens in other households also.


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## farmerjan (Oct 26, 2020)

I have barn/feral cats.  More than I can count or try to.  We have a coyote population and some become coyote meals I am sure as there will all of a sudden be a few less at feeding.  I had a HORRIFIC  problem with rats a few years ago because the owner had feed in the large canvas totes delivered and not put into any type of container. (I rent).  I used to come home at night from work and see 15-20 or more in the headlights as I swung around into the driveway, up in the small garage where he was keeping the feed hear my house.  It really was bad.  Got a couple half grown kittens from a farmer, where the cats were good mousers.  They had some kittens the next year (neighborhood traveling male cat) .  Had the females spayed, and one was killed on the road, and the other 2 disappeared.  In the meantime, I noticed a huge decrease in the rat and mouse problem.  I am pretty sure the landlord has poisoned some as in the last few years I had a spell where several came to the house and died at the house, they were sick looking and stagggering, but I can not prove it.  He doesn't appreciate that they have gotten rid of the rodent population..... and they are in his barn alot and I know they are getting mice as they sometimes bring them to the house to eat.  
That said, I cannot pet them, and by the time I can find the kittens, they are pretty wild.  One had kittens near the house ans as soon as they opened their eyes, they all disappeared... I think that the momma cat moved them but I can't rule out the coyotes.  There are plenty of places for them to get a way from the coyotes, but if they are out hunting in the field, they will get caught before they can get back to safety.  

I feed them once a day, at the house, and they stay in pretty good shape.  I don't expect them to try to subsist on just what they catch.  Feeding them just keeps them healthy so that they can do their job of hunting.  I am going to live catch some and move them to the new house although I don't have a barn here and I worry about the road.  I may move some to a couple of other barns we use and I will feed them there.  
The one place that I call the nurse cow field, has a small barn and the cats there often bring parts of rabbits into the barn.


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## Finnie (Oct 26, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> I didn't know that cats throwing up on a truck was a thing.


 😂 
Since we don’t have a barn, they are garage cats. Have had a lot of things get thrown up on over the years!


Nao57 said:


> The water bucket mouse trap is pretty good also; you can find it on youtube. Sometimes people hook up recording devices on it.


 This is in his repertoire. He also follows a Youtuber who showcases many types of traps. Shawn Woods, I think. 


Nao57 said:


> Am I understanding you right...that your cat was hunting baby rabbits? I didn't even know that was possible because of their size being so similar on a species level. Amazing.


My cats never went after grown up rabbits, but babies of all sizes were fair game. We have a huge bunny population. I expect it will explode now.


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## Finnie (Oct 26, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> . I am pretty sure the landlord has poisoned some as in the last few years I had a spell where several came to the house and died at the house,


I just can’t fathom the stupidity of that landlord of yours! 


farmerjan said:


> . Had the females spayed, and one was killed on the road, and the other 2 disappeared


 Back before we had a 12 year run of not needing to replace cats, we used to neuter the males at the low cost clinic in town, and leave the females unspayed. No point spending money on the surgery if they didn’t survive, and most years we needed new batches of kittens in the spring anyway. But the males needed to be fixed young to prevent spraying and fighting. I hope the ones you take to the new house do well there and avoid the roads.


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## Nao57 (Oct 26, 2020)

Finnie said:


> I just can’t fathom the stupidity of that landlord of yours!
> Back before we had a 12 year run of not needing to replace cats, we used to neuter the males at the low cost clinic in town, and leave the females unspayed. No point spending money on the surgery if they didn’t survive, and most years we needed new batches of kittens in the spring anyway. But the males needed to be fixed young to prevent spraying and fighting. I hope the ones you take to the new house do well there and avoid the roads.



Is it possible you think that he was trying to poison rats and mice, and got your rabbits instead? 

I'm not excusing it. But it makes more sense if it was like this. I can't imagine rabbits upsetting anyone. Even my old dad who is very much very stubborn had his heart melt seeing my silver fox rabbits.


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## farmerjan (Oct 26, 2020)

Going to spay and not neuter.  The males do too much wandering.  I have 2 or 3 that show up around "cat heat season" that I never see any other time.  My thing is, if you get along you can stay.  If you constantly want to fight, then you will be disposed of.  I need to get the population increases stopped.  Maybe leave one not spayed,  as she is my favorite... but spay the rest as I catch them.  Have seen 2 very wild cats here at the new house, so they have been here in the past since they ran in and out of the current storage shed and knew right where the holes in the wall were.  I expect that once I start feeding, they will be around more.  Since the "nurse cow pasture" is diagonally across the road from my new house, I expect there will be traveling back and forth as this one female I have seen nearly a half mile up the road from the old house in the fields hunting.  Wish I could find her kittens and try to tame a couple now.


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## farmerjan (Oct 26, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> Is it possible you think that he was trying to poison rats and mice, and got your rabbits instead?
> 
> I'm not excusing it. But it makes more sense if it was like this. I can't imagine rabbits upsetting anyone. Even my old dad who is very much very stubborn had his heart melt seeing my silver fox rabbits.


He wasn't poisoning the rabbits, he was poisoning the cats.  Found several that had basically crawled to the house and died here.....I found 2 trying to get to the house in the driveway part.  I am pretty sure it was the antifreeze when he serviced his tractor.... and no it wasn't a mistake as he made sure it was not where his son's dog could get in it at the barn.  He had the guy who used to mow my lawn,  and would come and shoot the groundhogs.....to shoot the barn swallows because they built nests in the barn and it messed on his tractor...... I went beserk when William shot one at the house and he said the owner told him to.  I said don't you dare shoot another barn swallow.... all the bugs, mosquitos and all that they eat..... Owner won't do anything about the ground hogs himself,  but it's okay to have someone else shoot stuff.... and the barn swallows just sent me off into orbit..... I can't prove the cats getting poisoned... but there were next to no rats by the time the cats started getting sick as they had taken care of all the rats and mice.  The best thing is I am getting out of there shortly.... and I imagine that in a few years that the landlord is going to give up farming and he will probably lease it out... but I won't be there to try to lease the farm too.  DS tried to do a lease several years back, and they even talked a lease purchase, but landlord is too tight and thought he might get a better deal somewhere down the road.  His son sure isn't going to keep it, and the daughter is married to a farmer but they are a fair distance away so not convenient to them to have cattle here.... would love for ds to get it and then I could get back in the house and do things right and make it a good place to be.... But I sure don't think that is going to happen, so I am getting out.


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## thistlebloom (Oct 27, 2020)

I have two male barn cats, One was a feral kitten that Kid#1's GF found on the highway in Wyoming. I got the other to keep him company and they are inseperable buddies. I had them neutered at 4 months old. They don't spray, don't fight and are rodent killing machines. Neutering is less expensive than spaying most places. I hope they are here a very long while, not just because of their hunting abilities, but they are such friendly characters and give us a laugh.


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## Finnie (Oct 29, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> . They don't spray,


That’s what I loved about my male cats that we had neutered as soon as they could leave their mother. Even though they did the tail lifting and twitching posture for spraying, nothing ever came out. Thistlebloom, I hope yours live a long time, too.


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## Anonymouse (Dec 6, 2020)

I live in the South.  Usually have all my hay by Nov 1 but this year I neglected to get it.  My normal hay guy was completely sold out.  I got 60+ bales from his neighbor.  It looks great...all green and no weeds....but it weighs half the weight of the bales I get from my normal hay guy.  Not sure what to think about that....

I only have 2 horses and 2 goats to feed through the winter, but the pasture is already bare on grass.  I'm going to try to seed some winter rye grass next year, but that won't help me through this winter.  

I was wondering....will goats eat pine bark mulch?  I have a couple of bags left over from some gardening that I was doing.  I am constantly chasing my goats off of the oak trees when I let them free range.  If they will eat the pine bark mulch, I figured I could use that in a pinch if needed....  However, I am going to try to pick up another 40 bales in a couple of weeks if the guy has any left.


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## rachels.haven (Dec 6, 2020)

No, they probably won't eat pine mulch. I'd do first cutting hay before mulch. Mulch usually equals partially decomposed, maybe even treated in some way, definitely low in nutrition.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 6, 2020)

@Anonymouse  buy beet pulp.  Both horses & goats can eat, usually like it.  It can extend the hay by supplementing as a portion of the hay.  Also pellets or cubes....you should moisten cubes as too hard most of the time.  Just in case you haven't had time to read entire thread.


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## Anonymouse (Dec 7, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> @Anonymouse  buy beet pulp.  Both horses & goats can eat, usually like it.  It can extend the hay by supplementing as a portion of the hay.  Also pellets or cubes....you should moisten cubes as too hard most of the time.  Just in case you haven't had time to read entire thread.



Thanks!  I've bought beet pulp in the past for my horses.  Gotta be careful with that stuff because they (horses) can choke rather easily on it.  I never thought about using it for the goats but it makes sense....

I do have alfalfa cubes and compressed alfalfa.  My weird *** goats doesn't seem to care for it though, go figure.  They love baled alfalfa....just not pellets or the processed stuff.


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## thistlebloom (Dec 7, 2020)

For your horses, soak the pulp. I found the shreds don't need as long a soak as the beet pellets. I've seen 12 hours as a recommended soak time, but I find I don't need nearly that long before they are soft and easily squished between thumb and forefinger. Just have to check them until you find the right length of time.


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## farmerjan (Dec 7, 2020)

Many dairy farmers feed beet shreds that are soaked to calves and any cow that is needing a little TLC.  Soaked 15-30 min will soften them up enough for most of the calves to readily eat.   Good extender for bulk in their gut tract so I would think that goats would do well on them too as they also chew a cud like cattle.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 8, 2020)

Soaking  makes the pellets swell up.  An older horse can have issues with choke with pellets mainly because they don't chew them well enough -- less jaw teeth -- and the pieces swell with any fluid.  So shreds work better if mixed with grains for them.  If not fully into stomach, it can close their throat.  The pellets are shreds that are compressed.  Soaking them releases the shreds.   You start with a scoop of pellets and if you add hot water, you will have  bucket with what becomes 4x what was there.   My minis love warm shreds on a cold morning.  .   I often throw some alfalfa pellets into the wet shreds for taste and nutrition.  I have also put cubes in at start of soak, softening both.  A couple hrs works well.  

 It is a way to stretch hay....or go completely without it.  My old stallion never gets hay now.  At 37 he's fat and sassy on sr feed, which is made with BP.    A goat does better with some long stem, so some hay each day is better....but mine gobble wet shreds!


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## Anonymouse (Dec 8, 2020)

I have two old mares.  I currently pour water in their food every day because they have rice bran and other powder supplements in their feed.  Adding a cup of water helps keep them from choking and makes it easier for them to lick up the scraps.  

I do not currently use beet pulp with any of my horses.  Perhaps some of you misunderstood that comment.  I *have* used it in the past with several different horses.  I've always used shredded beet pulp (as opposed to pellets) and ALWAYS added water prior to feeding it because I have seen horses choke on it (not mine).  

I don't think I will have a problem making my hay last to spring.  I'm lucky to live in the south.  The pastures usually come out of dormancy by mid-March.  I currently have about 75 bales to get me through until then....  I'm still going to try to pick up another 40 bales, but I was interested in this thread on the chance that they sell out before I can get back that direction to buy more AND on the chance that the hay I already have doesn't last.  I may see if one of my horsey friends has some shredded beet pulp already.  I'd like to mix up a cup or two and see if my goats will even eat it before I buy a bag.


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## rachels.haven (Dec 8, 2020)

They may like the pellets or shreds best dry. Mine wouldn't touch it wet at first but liked it dry. No choking occurred, and I was able to acclimate them to mash eventually which gets more water into them. I only stopped it because I didn't want my bred does getting too many carbs too early (...especially the already borderline obese ones who become blimps on air). We'll be starting it up again soon. Moving slowly may help yours eat it and the alfalfa pellets eventually too.


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## Nao57 (Dec 8, 2020)

Anonymouse said:


> Thanks!  I've bought beet pulp in the past for my horses.  Gotta be careful with that stuff because they (horses) can choke rather easily on it.  I never thought about using it for the goats but it makes sense....
> 
> I do have alfalfa cubes and compressed alfalfa.  My weird *** goats doesn't seem to care for it though, go figure.  They love baled alfalfa....just not pellets or the processed stuff.



Wow, I didn't know this! 

Does that mean there are other animals that can choke on beet pulp mix stuff also? I see this stuff for sale all the time at Cal Ranch.


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## Nao57 (Dec 8, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> Soaking  makes the pellets swell up.  An older horse can have issues with choke with pellets mainly because they don't chew them well enough -- less jaw teeth -- and the pieces swell with any fluid.  So shreds work better if mixed with grains for them.  If not fully into stomach, it can close their throat.  The pellets are shreds that are compressed.  Soaking them releases the shreds.   You start with a scoop of pellets and if you add hot water, you will have  bucket with what becomes 4x what was there.   My minis love warm shreds on a cold morning.  .   I often throw some alfalfa pellets into the wet shreds for taste and nutrition.  I have also put cubes in at start of soak, softening both.  A couple hrs works well.
> 
> It is a way to stretch hay....or go completely without it.  My old stallion never gets hay now.  At 37 he's fat and sassy on sr feed, which is made with BP.    A goat does better with some long stem, so some hay each day is better....but mine gobble wet shreds!



I also wanted to ask if there's more danger or less with beet pulp, leftovers etc from beets for animals that have history of colic?


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## Anonymouse (Dec 16, 2020)

Nao57 said:


> Wow, I didn't know this!
> 
> Does that mean there are other animals that can choke on beet pulp mix stuff also? I see this stuff for sale all the time at Cal Ranch.



Unfortunately, I can't answer your question in regards to other animals.  My daughters have been showing horses with a competition barn for about 17 years.  There are dozens of riders and horses with the show barn.  I've personally seen maybe 4 or 5 horses, all different ages & breeds, who have choked on beet pulp in their feed.  The trainer who runs the barn is always very adamant that beet pulp MUST be thoroughly soaked before feeding it.  I can't say for certain if the horses choked because they were eating too fast or maybe the beet pulp didn't have enough water in it or maybe some other completely unrelated reason...  I just know that the general consensus was that the horses had choked on the beet pulp.  

I've had two horses who choked on their dinners in the past.  It is a very scary situation because you can't exactly give a 1500# animal the Heimlich Maneuver..ha ha.  I don't feed beet pulp to my horses because they are pigs and would probably choke as I've seen other horses choke on it.  No need to tempt fate....


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## rachels.haven (Dec 16, 2020)

I'm sure it's possible for a goat to choke on beet pulp pellets. I'm not sure it's common, if you know what I mean. Their system and eating habits are a little different than horses.


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