# Ground rod question



## chiques chicks (Jun 9, 2016)

If I were to install two separate fence systems with one energizer for each fence, could I use the same ground rods for both systems?

The energizers would be within 30 feet or less of each other feeding two independent . I understand the energizers would technically be connected together through the ground, but isn't this the case anyway? The hot sides would not interconnect.


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## Latestarter (Jun 9, 2016)

To my way of thinking, a ground is a ground... I imagine you could hook as many systems to it as you wanted...


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## chiques chicks (Jun 9, 2016)

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something obvious. I do that a lot.


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## Latestarter (Jun 9, 2016)

Well, after you get it all set up, give each hot run a personal grab test and let us know the results.


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## chiques chicks (Jun 9, 2016)

I've touched so many in my life.... most body parts have been zapped.

Nothing like hitting one while standing in a Creek.  Only time I've ever been injured was about 50 years ago I got stuck under one and it was across my eye.  Eye was swollen for several days.

I have a feeling the energizers were a little different then. More frequent pulses, maybe higher amperage well.

Biggest concern was damaging the energizers.


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## babsbag (Jun 9, 2016)

You can use the same ground rods, we have. Right now our fence is in a temporary mode as we are doing a bunch of dirt work and DH didn't want to put in ground rods temporarily, can't blame him for that. So what he did was connect the ground to the fence which is connected to the t-posts which are obviously in the ground. It worked to my surprise. We got a 8.0-9.5 reading on the meter, OUCH!!!

My worst shock from a fence was stepping over a wire and getting it caught between my foot and my shoe. I was wearing flip flops. I couldn't lose that shoe fast enough.


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## Latestarter (Jun 9, 2016)

I can see you hopping and skipping on one leg


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## babsbag (Jun 10, 2016)

Pretty much the case and the thing is I was going into the chicken coop so I didn't want to kick off the flip flop and step with bare feet in chicken poo. Trust me, it really was a no win situation. I can say that I only made that mistake once in my life.


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## greybeard (Jun 10, 2016)

The short answer is no.
Not a good idea for a variety of reasons.
1. A lightning strike on one fence will fry both energizers due to using a common ground.
2. All electrical circuits work on the principle of electrons being in balance in regards to their charge. What leaves the source, whether that be a generator, a transformer on a pole, a battery,  or any other source, has to return to source to negate the + energy potential with the negative on the other side. Any imbalance when that charge returns to the energizer will shorten the length of the energizer if not fry it. It's a common misconception in electric applications that the charge wants to go to earth ground--that is only true in nature--lightning and static buildup of positively charged electrons. In fencing, even tho the animal touches the wire, and the charge runs thru him, and out his feet to the ground he's standing on, he has not yet felt the charge. That only happens when that same pulse continues it's at-speed-of-light journey thru the ground, to the rod, and back up the negative energizer wire to the neg (-) terminal of the same the charger the pulse left from milliseconds ago. It has returned to source at that point. Using a common ground rod allows the pulses to "get mixed up" and the separate fence, even tho showing that it is energized when tested, can be  sending it's return pulse no where and in some rare cases, back to the wrong energizer.  You can see in the following diagram the actual pulse path:






You will also get crossover voltage from one energizer to the other using a common ground--anywhere the 2 separate circuits are directly connected, is the same as connecting 2 energizers to one fence and that is always a no-no..the ground rod is very much a part of that circuit.

Ken Cove, a very trusted name in electric fence design, even tells in their instructions NOT to use a common ground rod for 2 different fences or energizers. It's purpose is to carry voltage back to the neg terminal of the enrgizer--not to dissapate that voltage into the ground.
https://www.kencove.com/fence/99_Energizer+Installation_resource.php


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## chiques chicks (Jun 10, 2016)

@greybeard kind of what I was afraid of. I missed that out my kencove literature. Since I have a 3 Joule for my main fence and a 1 Joule as my small " auxillary"  (garden, etc), I can clearly see stray electrons causing this.  Thanks!

I'm just hoping even having them close <50ft won't cause this issue. Most times the year my soil is very moist, to the point of numerous surface springs.

Lightning strikes in electric fences in this area are rare, fortunately, due to high tree cover and the  I am in a small valley, so lightning rarely when hits the trees. When young, a tree about 100 ft away was struck when I was touching an aluminum storm door, so I understand stray voltage.


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## babsbag (Jun 10, 2016)

I just learned something new. That is why this BYH is so awesome. @greybeard thank you for the great explanation and I guess since something works it doesn't mean it is the right way.


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## greybeard (Jun 10, 2016)

chiques chicks said:


> I've touched so many in my life.... most body parts have been zapped.
> 
> Nothing like hitting one while standing in a Creek.  Only time I've ever been injured was about 50 years ago I got stuck under one and it was across my eye.  Eye was swollen for several days.
> 
> ...


50 years ago, most chargers were not pulsed at the same length as today's chargers--and some were not pulsed at all. High impedance chargers. The old ones that were pulsed, accomplished the pulse via a mechanical switch, which of course was meant it was closed (on) for longer length of time and open (off) for usually the same amount of time. You could stand by the charger and actually hear the click--click--click of this switch. You could easily count the pulses off and the 'on' time was over 1 second. Why? No mechanical device can operate for long at the rates needed to qualify as a low impedance charger--they would just wear out. Modern low impedance chargers accomplish the pulse via an integrated circuit board, and that "on" pulse is extremely short--no moving parts. They  have an on-time somewhere in the  100 micro-seconds range (100 millionths of a second), but still emit a pulse at rates of about 50-60 times per minute, meaning the control circuit is off for far longer than it is on.
You can still get long on pulse chargers and even no pulse chargers. Most small chargers for pet training are un-pulsed. If they don't say low impedance, then they are most likely not a pulse type charger, or are a high impedance pulsed charger. The down size to high impedance is voltage drop at the end of the fence.






I have had lots of volt-ohm meters in my time, including some very good ones when I was an electronics tech in the military. Some were rated at 10kv, but most of even the high end ones we peons see in everyday use are rated much much less. The one I am using now is rated at 1000vac and 750vdc. Any decent fence charger will put out 5000v. At best, using an off the shelf VOM, you will burn a fuse in less than the blink of an eye, but often, they use mini-fuses, and that little fuse only has a short piece of glass less than 3/8-1/4" long. 5000+ volts can jump that little gap and go on to wreck havoc on your VOM's board, and I'm not sure the insulation on the leads would be rated high enough to handle 5KV either. Household wiring is generally rated at only 600v. Fence hookup wire's insulation is rated around 20,000 v. I do not know what the insulation on my vom's leads is good for.

The only time I would even consider using a common ground is if both chargers were exactly the same--same brand, same model, same output rating, and if both fences used the same wire type and diameter and very very close to the whole total length. (length of run X # of hot wires).

Now, for the real argument.
Which means more-Joule rating or voltage rating?
It's been a never ending source of debate.
Zareba, Stafix and Gallagher all go by joules--Parmak (Parker McCrory) says joules is meaningless.



> *6.Q.How does the joule relate to the performance of an electric fence charger?*
> _
> *A.*It doesn`t. It would take a lengthy discussion to explain all of the different factors which make an electric fence effective and safe. The joule does not measure the effectiveness or safety of electric shock.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good argument and Parmak has been around a long long time and makes good products, until you consider a couple of things.
1. It's impossible to get a high joule rating without also having a high voltage to compute that matmatically derived j figure from.
2. We all generally purchase our chargers based on it's price and joule rating, but we test our fences by measuring for voltage. (no tester can produce a test figure in Joules because the tester doesn't know what the real world value of fence impedance/resistance and the resistance to voltage that is present in the animal being shocked is-- Voltage÷ resistance= amps ) Then of course, we have to consider T (time) since the formula for Joules also says energy is the # of watts produced in 1 second. Way beyond our capabilities, so we gladly settle for Volts and are on our merry way.


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## chiques chicks (Jun 10, 2016)

Actually enjoy all this information.

Interesting, too, my one is a Paramak low- impedance 30 mile design. I looked it up at their website, since I got it rescued from a junk pile and replaced the solar panel and battery.  I can actually time the pulses if I'm within about 10 feet of it! Mines about 10-12 years old, but the model is still made. I also opened it up and it is circuit controlled, not mechanical.

Small one is a Zareba, actually part of Wood stream in Lititz, PA, a maybe 15 miles from me. They also make Victor mouse and animal traps as well as numerous outdoor and animal control products. Actually an old and trusted company. I was using their leg hold and body traps 50 years ago as well. Which explains one reason I hit a lot of fences, lol. 

Yeah, old re-planted country fool, lots of great and not so great experiences, funny now, but not at the time.


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## greybeard (Jun 11, 2016)

I used to use AFW chargers, but when they decided to compete globally in the late 90s, and changed their fenceing company's name to Zareba simply to get rid of the 'American' part, their quality also suffered--like many US electronics companies, they started using Chinese components on their boards and Chinese caps as well. I would guess that up to 90% of the problems with electronics today is from bad capacitors, on everything from TVs to computers to bug zappers and fence energizers. 
Not a fan of Zareba's yellow tee post insulators either--they have a tendency to crack and fal off the post--won't handle much UV. I do have a Zareba 100 mile charger as a backup to my primary--a 12 joule  Taylor Cyclops. They make a 20J and a 32J as well, and tho that is some serious capacitance, I can't justify $900 for that 32 j unit.
http://www.taylorfence.net/acBossCharger.php
There's really only a few companies any more, even tho there are a lot of different brands.
Sta-fix, Speedrite, Patriot are all part of Gallagher (New Zealand company), and Gallagher is part owner of TruTest (another New Zealand co) 
Gallagher has always been the brand to beat anywhere in the world. Their chargers fence millions of sq miles of cattle and sheep ranches in NZ and Australia, but they ain't inexpensive.
StaFix, SpeedRite, RedSnapr, and a few others used to all be stand alone companies when I first started raisin cattle in the late 60s.


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## babsbag (Jun 12, 2016)

I agree on the insulators, I replaced quite a few today as  a matter of fact. Do you have a brand that you like better?  I have been using Zarebas DC chargers for about 8 years and have had to replace more than my fair share. They last about 2 years, which isn't great for 125.00.  I bought a Fi-Shock brand one at Lowes or Home Depot and pretty sure it is a Zareba as well, it lasted a year. Maybe I will get a Patriot when I buy my next one; I saw them at a local feed store the other day. I need a new one for my back pasture so now is a good time to try something new.


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