# sheep finally! mixed breed, size, and choosing ram questions



## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 12, 2015)

ok so I am finally "this close!" to having sheep of my own! 

the woman is a member of the spinners and weavers guild I am in. I have talked sheep with her before. well last I talked with her she had just under 200 head after lambing and now she is really working on getting down to just a dozen or so and still has plenty more than 100 head. so now is the time! I am working on my smaller pasture fence and since its plenty grown up it should be plenty to keep em busy and over winter and until I can get my big 5acre pasture fixed up.

the woman has adults and lambs all varying ages. I think getting younger ones will be best so that I can work with them and get em used to me and all. although I cant promise that darn ol 'sheeposis aquire-osis' wont kick up and make me bring home one or two older ewes 

so here is my question...
the flock is quite mixed breeds. she has had sheep over 30 years and its all heritage breeds and always bred for good fleeces. which is good to me because that's what I want. so they are a lot of Icelandic, and bit of Jacob, Shetland, etc. and there is a little bit of tunis in there from years ago. and she wanted to be able to work em all herself so they are all smaller sheep.

I wonder what ram I should be thinking of for the future breeding? closer to breeding time I would want to buy a ram. so my choices are to 1) buy a ram from this same woman, 2) splurge and buy a really lovely registered super fine wool Shetland ram from another person in the guild, 3) keep an eye out on CL and farm ads and at auctions for a nice ram or ram lamb, I wouldn't be adverse to a bottle baby if he looked very nice and promising.

also, in the future I would kinda like to work on breeding a meatier build so I could do some meat lambs and not have to feed em up nearly a full year or more like a lot of the Icelandic and Shetland people I am reading about.
so if in the future I want to cross a meatier build ram to my ewes how do I decide if he'll be too big?
I mean obviously I wont go with anything that clearly outsizes the ewes and I don't want to push chancing lambing problems with huge lambs.

I don't know if it makes much of a difference but I was planning on putting the ram in with the ewes about Dec. 10 for due date about May 6 which for this area means pretty good spring weather and little chance of snow. I don't want to have lambing earlier than mid-April. We've done February goat kidding and I do not want to do that!
*ETA: I just re-read that most seasonal breeding will be oct-nov /: would mid-late November be better than early December breeding? I will ask the woman when we go to see her flock when she has bred before but I really don't want to do real cold weather lambing if it can be avoided.

thanks!


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## goatgurl (Oct 12, 2015)

congratulations on your almost sheep.  I'm no help with what wool sheep you need because all my sheep are katahdin hair sheep but i can tell you that the best ram you can get is so important for your whole herd, present and future.  good luck


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 12, 2015)

thanks goatgurl  we had dairy goats for many years and I have other animals too so I am well versed with things just not worked with sheep much in person yet. lol that's why I like to double check and ask here etc before I do things a lot of the time.

I nearly forgot that there is also a woman who has a small flock that's literally around the block from me! albeit, its a very large country block here  I just re-found her number and will have to see if I can go visit her some time as she has icelandics.


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## goatgurl (Oct 12, 2015)

in looking at your name i gathered you had goats.  what kind do you have?  i have lamanchas and love them.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 12, 2015)

I had dairy goats. saanens and mixed breeds.


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## norseofcourse (Oct 13, 2015)

Congrats on your almost-sheep!  What are your goals for the sheep?  I'm curious why you would use a Shetland ram on 'mostly Icelandics'?  Icelandics have a double coat; Shetlands do not.  Not sure what happens when you cross that.  Both breeds do have a great variety of colors and patterns, if you're going for natural-colored wools.

I didn't know a lot of Icelandic and Shetland owners feed their lambs for a full year or more (then again, I don't know too many other sheep owners beyond here).  There's plenty of variation even within a breed.  Last year I had 3 lambs processed at the age of 9 months, and hanging weights averaged 44 lbs.  This year, I will be taking lambs in at about 7 months.  Two of them, Rose's twins, are huge!  I swear they are as big as she is.  Her single last year was also stocky with a good growth rate, and I kept her.  I do feed some grain, but not a lot - Rose just raises big lambs.  I am hoping her daughter follows in her footsteps.

If the seller keeps records, or remembers, or you can see the current lambs, you could choose sheep who have larger than typical lambs, or their lambs, and that might get you a head start towards a larger sheep/meatier build.

December should still be fine for breeding, you may have really anxious sheep by then lol!  I'm putting Elding in Nov. 11 for lambs early to mid April, and the weather should be fine.  I've had March lambs and they were fine.  Keep in mind the ewes might not settle right away after the ram goes in, especially if they are ewe lambs.

Good luck - it's exciting, isn't it?


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 13, 2015)

thanks  

my goals are 1) fleeces for myself and selling, 2) extra ram lambs become wethers for sale/meat, 3) depending on how things are going when I breed and close to lambing if I want to bother with once a day milking at all.

since her flock is mixed anyway I figure I will settle my ideas and plans more once I see them and feel the fleeces. and since my reading has said that for crossing fleece types you will loose the double coating of the icelandics in the first crossing but if you cross those offspring back to Icelandic you will get it back again in their offspring. so some could be double coated and some not, I was so excited and full of other questions at the time talking with her I didn't think of it then.

well I am on a lot of different facebook groups and online forums so from reading through all the old threads here and reading up on the Icelandic breeders and Shetland breeders groups there I would say definitely most of the people say that they keep their freezer bound lambs at least into winter a couple months and a lot still say keep em until spring/summer to fatten em up more and to get more meat with little to no difference in the meat anyhow.
but for my small starting and somewhat barn space limitations for at least a year or two more I would rather eat a little smaller lambs or sell em rather than take up the barn space and feedin out hay all winter to many more animals than needed. processing a couple small young lambs here would be great but for selling any I think i'd want some meatier bigger ones. or at least a few bigger ewes and have smaller lambs and bigger lambs for both options.
plus if I lamb starting early May and if nothing else sell the remaining meat lambs off in oct-nov they will be 6-7 months old and be plenty big enough plus if I shear em first i'll get the bonus lamb fleeces.

that makes sense about them not breeding right away. with the goats the girls never came into standing heat until the buck was in at least a week. that makes sense.. I will make a note for myself, maybe I should plan to put the ram in like around thanksgiving? that way they will have time to come into it and breed abouts the last week of November onwards.

Shetland ram-
pros: 1) two breeders that are fairly close, 2) one breeder has super fine wool shetlands and would probably make really lovely soft lambs and be good for my fleece uses,
cons: 1) the super fine wool breeder has small shetlands (though I've not seen all that many in person) and doesn't breed his ewes until 2yr/old.. thus not good for my meaty size planning,

Icelandic ram-
pros: 1) tend to be at least a little bigger than shetlands, 2) two breeders fairly close, 3) are supposed to be triple purposed and thus good for my meaty size planning and my possible milking planning,
cons: 1) I haven't visited the one breeder close to me yet to know if i'd want animals from there,

other breed ram-
pros: could be many depending on breed and characteristics.
cons: could also be many lol.. mainly I am worried if lambs would be too big and cause birthing problems. although I wouldn't breed a ram that is clearly much bigger than the ewes or like a big wide headed to a narrow headed breed, like babydoll to Shetland, because I'd hate to loose an ewe over a lamb having a big ol head. I know that would be better to do like Shetland ram over babydoll ewe for something like that.


the woman has been selling off the known trouble makers and consistent health problems etc first when her buyer comes so I am fairly confident that I will get to see the best of the flock to choose from. i'll be bringing a pen and a couple sheets of paper or notebook to write things down when I go.
lol tryin to make a list of things I need to ask


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## Roving Jacobs (Oct 14, 2015)

Personally my May lambs/kids have never grown as well as my earlier lambs. I live up in the snow belt and I get not wanting to lamb in the cold but I've been creeping my lambing back a week or two every year because those early lambs just do better on my land. Also lamb prices are higher in August/Sept so it can be a good idea to have lambs ready to go by then. My muslim customers want 6+ month old lambs in mid-September for their eid and are willing to pay a premium for them.


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## secuono (Oct 14, 2015)

What about a Southdown ram? Not Babydoll, but the big one. They _should_ be meaty with good wool. Heck, Babydolls should also be stocky and meaty....
Some of the Babydoll Southdowns out west are huge! I just sold a ram that was originally from the west, he was 24in, very thick guy.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 14, 2015)

thanks guys. gives me something to think on.

@Roving Jacobs I hadn't thought about that. hmm neat. I guess I will think on that more and if I get young ewes I will mull it over and have a good decision and plan by fall. and if I get yearling or bit older ewes maybe I will go middle ground and breed for lambing in early april? if I put a ram in about the first week of Nov then lambing would be estimated starting first week of April.

@secuono I have actually thought a bit on babydoll crosses. and since I am mainly in for wool I have even found some things posted on forums/fb groups from a few people ho have had Icelandic/babydoll crosses so I can kinda see what possible wool might be like. so that is definitely in the possibilities.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

HUZZAH!!!   everything is about to be set up! keepin all my fingers and toes crossed! I am writing out *everything* I possibly can. I am sooo excited! 

I just realized too that if I decide to get older ewes and a ram that i'll be bringin em home probably beginning of November and it would line up perfectly with my breeding time I had thought of already. so it will be an interesting day at her farm with all these things to think over as I choose! I will be calling her tomorrow to figure the best day to come out. and i'll be seeing her probably on Saturday at the spinners and weavers meeting. yippee!!!

back to my original post here, @Roving Jacobs mentioned the mule breeding system used in the UK to me. upon a bit of research I find that shetlands are regularly used with BFL, NC cheviot, border cheviot, etc rams! those lambs are sold off or used on the next breeding level with texel or other breed ram and supposedly have really awesome traits here for this tier system.
so.... BFL? those rams are supposed to be 200-250lbs! on little Shetland ewes!? well either the ewe decides a lot more of the lamb size than I would have guessed (like other animals experience I have) or they have some much bigger Shetland ewes than anything I have seen in person or online?


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## Roving Jacobs (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't know about shetlands but I've seen jacobs crossed with tunis, bfl, and border leicesters with no problems and jacobs are pretty teeny. They've been experienced ewes though and I'm not sure I'd do it with a first timer that would be more likely to have a single giant lamb.


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## purplequeenvt (Oct 15, 2015)

Shetland and Border Leicester person here......we also have Lincolns, Southdowns, and a few cross bred sheep too. 

I would not breed anything Shetland sized to a big meaty Southdown type ram. A Border Leicester, BFL, or Cheviot would probably do ok since the lambs tend to have narrower heads and shoulders. 

That being said, I had a big Romney ram breed one of my Shetland ewes a few years ago. Ram lamb was pure Shetland, but the ewe lamb was obviously a Romney cross. She was bigger than your normal Shetland lamb at 8 lbs, but her mother had no lambing issues. 

I don't like late lambs. The late babies never grow as well. I had a very split lambing season this spring with a few lambs born in March/April, a surprise born 5/30, and the rest in the middle of June. The March/April babies are lovely and so is the 5/30 baby (an accidental half sibling mating, mom lambed at just barely a year old), but the June babies are still pathetic. 

For my purposes, butchering a Shetland lamb isn't worth it. In fact, I rarely slaughter the Shetlands for our own consumption. At least not for cuts of meat. Too small. I'll grind most of the meat or use it as dog food. Growing them up to yearlings makes it a little more useful, but costs more. Some people like the smaller carcass size though.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

thanks roving Jacobs. that's about what I was thinkin too. have to use only your bigger and experienced ewes. I have been thinkin on things and if my doodling is accurate then I could get a ram to use the first two years breeding and save up a bit from fleece selling so that the third year I could sell/etc that ram and get another one to better fit my breeding goals than I could afford just starting out.

i am tryin to decide what to use and am stuck.
mineral is about $15 for 50#
producers pride all stock sweet feed 12%protein $8 for 50#
and for some reason i didnt get the price of the other feed but it should be between 8 and 14.

if i work out my mix ( 2 part alfalfa pellet, 1 part wheat, 1 part oat) it works out to about 13% protein and at my local prices being $14.40 per 50#. plus the bag of mineral to put out, but i cant factor that in until i see how soon they go through that. 
so right now i think the all stock feed will save a good bit of money. 
should I buy the all stock feed and have the mineral to put out through the year? I feel like yes but right now I am so excited and keep rethinking everything! Eeep!


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

thanks @purplequeenvt ! that makes sense about the head shape. I guess if I want to try that I will have to watch for some babydoll etc ewes for sale and do it that way.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Oct 15, 2015)

Congrats on being close to getting your sheep!! I wish you the best! Please keep us updated!


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

Sunday I will be going and picking out sheep! *super happy dance!* I may come home with lambs or grown and possibly bred ewes (possibly due end of February). I am just soooo excited!

the woman has a whole lot so I will come home with at least three and me and dad agreed that if i'm not really taken with others we can work with the woman and come back another time when she has more rounded up to look at.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Oct 16, 2015)

if I get several bred ewes and they lamb in February.. then next year those lambs will be about 8 months old for beginning of November when I was thinkin of putting the ram in.. so they *could* be big enough to all be bred whatever ewe lambs I kept back and would lamb at about 12/13 months old.

if I am able to, by like June maybe, have some more fence up so I could separate all the ram lambs from the ewes and ewe lambs... could I keep the ram lambs and not band/wether the best lookin two or so lambs, keep them and the wethers together, and then by probably September time I can decide which ram lamb I'd like to keep, sell off/butcher the others, and keep that ram lamb in the pen (maybe with one nice wooled wether?) until beginning of November for breeding..? I think that sounds good. lol lots of planning and a lot of things I am sure will change along the way as I learn more workin with them and things change.
but does the ram lambs thing sound good? that way I could use him for a year or two, sell him, and then probably bring in an unrelated ram that I like. probably would keep an eye out for something nice with good meat shape but that wont be too big for the ewes.


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## purplequeenvt (Oct 16, 2015)

Personally, I would get the bred ewes and when they lamb, castrate any and all rams. Keep the ewe lambs that you like and buy a completely unrelated ram. 

Unless this lady has kept extensive records, you don't know who is related to who so you could be breeding already closely related sheep. Not necessarily a problem, but you could run into issues depending on how "inbred" they are. 

This also gives you time to get more fence set up. 

We don't breed ewe lambs here. BUT other people do. The decision to bred lambs or not has a lot to do with your goals. If your goal is production and to get as many lambs as possible out of your ewes, then breed those lambs. Just be prepared for a higher risk of lambing trouble (due to the ewe's immature size) and possibly more rejected/bummer lambs (due to the ewe's immature brain). Remember, she's still basically a baby herself. 

That being said, people breed ewe lambs all the time with no issues. You will just need to be prepared to feed them enough so that they reach a size that is safe to breed and to watch closely during lambing. My best mother this spring was a just barely year old Shetland ewe that got bred accidentally (through a fence!!!) to her half brother. The resulting lamb is gorgeous and the ewe raised her with no help from anyone and continued to grow herself.


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## Bossroo (Oct 16, 2015)

Your best bet for return on investment  is a sheep that is being used comercially as they carry the best genetics for increased yields . The others will cost much more in carrying cost and lesson profit or result in a loss.  The IRS frowns on ventures that result in a loss.


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## SheepGirl (Oct 31, 2015)

What did you end up getting?


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## Latestarter (Nov 2, 2015)

^^What she said^^ Pictures?


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 16, 2015)

Sorry for the long delay!! I was working nonstop for two weeks on the sheep shed, fence, hay rack, rabbit cage problem came up, my laptop decided to break a tiny peice inside so that i couldnt charge it, so its in town getting fixed, then me and dad got busy all week helping in at the mill making two pallets of apples into applesauce,... then the other day on the way home from the mill a deer jumped right in front of us and dads truck is totalled... But we did get the deer out of it and just chopped it down yesterday and got just under 65# off of it!

Busy busy busy!

So i am uploading from my phone to photobucket right now. Pics arent so greatbut just gonna have to deal with em until i get my laptop back do get the pics off my camera.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 16, 2015)

So i picked up three ewes. Well the other day i flipped em to check hooves and what do ya know, the white 'ewe' has big ol nuts hangin there! 
So i actually have:
*1 ewe 1.5-2y/o that has lambed before. Possibly bred at the old flock and due as early as mid-february. She seems to me like she has cotswold in her based on her fleece.
*1 ewe lamb born feb-may time 2015. Lovely little ewe. 
*1 white ram lamb. Nice build and i like his fleece. Good and long and nice crimp.

And of course the ewes **could** be bred to this ram lamb now. He hasnt shown any flirting or anything. But i will assume the odds as they are and keep an eye on them all and watch for lambs anyway  

I am not upset about him being a him since he is a nice sturdy guy and i love the fleece. But when i am able i hope to buy some more ewes/ewe lambs. This time i will be sure to check them before loading em up! Hahaha. 

The ram


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 16, 2015)

The rams fleece parted. It looks nicer in person than my crappy phone pic.




The little ewe lamb  such a cutie!







The little ewes fleece


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 16, 2015)

And sassy butt isnt fond of me unless i have feed. Lol. The older ewe.




Ya cant tell in the pic but when ya part the wool its a lovely grey. 



And the rams face and legs have cute cream speckles! He seems to have alot of the tunis traits from what i can tell.





Oh and they should be getting sheared this weekend!  i am so excited!


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## Latestarter (Nov 16, 2015)

Grats! They all look splendid! I can only imagine your new male ewe being flipped over and you discovering the surprise package hanging/laying there!  But as you said... that may work out even better than you intended is his wool/fiber is what you're looking for. love the white spots below the youngster's eyes  Thanks for the pics and update!


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## Roving Jacobs (Nov 16, 2015)

I love english blue marked sheep with their little teardrops  What breeds did the lady say she mixed? English blue is one of the more recessive agouti patterns but I guess shows up a lot in longwools, romneys, and BLs.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 16, 2015)

They are mixed bunch of heritage breeds. She said alot of icelandic and tunis.. plenty of shetland and jacob.. and bits of things from like having a ram in for one year.


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## norseofcourse (Nov 16, 2015)

ohiogoatgirl said:


> They are mixed bunch of heritage breeds. She said alot of icelandic and tunis.. plenty of shetland and jacob.. and bits of things from like having a ram in for one year.


The ram's coat looks double-coated if I'm seeing it right?  The 'corkscrew' look to the longer outer coat looks like my Icelandics coats.

You'll get some nice wool to play around with when they're sheared!


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## Baymule (Nov 16, 2015)

Some nice sheep! I had to laugh at you flipping them to find that you have a ram!


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 16, 2015)

Thanks everyone!

None of their wool is double coated. His and the little ewes are very long and open like icelandic though. The older ewes wool is a not as open but still definitely not tight closed fleece like babydolls or anything.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Nov 16, 2015)

Congrats on your new sheep! I love the coloring on your ram's face too!


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## ohiogoatgirl (Nov 24, 2015)

I got my laptop back and the sheep got sheared. woohoo! tomorrow while I chill and fiddle with things I will be getting/uploading some pics. the sheep seem to be doing just fine with the late shearing.


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## ohiogoatgirl (Dec 4, 2015)

i will be updating in my journal thread. for those following. pics hopefully soon to come of the whole set up and nekkid sheeps  
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/ohiogoatgirls-crazy-critter-escapades-adventures.32046/


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