# Had my LGD pup kill a doeling.



## Garciafarms1 (Apr 29, 2022)

Today i had my LGD pup kill one of my doelings he had been with for about 3 weeks he is in with 8 does and buck along with what was 5 doelings. Is this the end of this pup or can he still be saved and kept from doing this again?


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## Baymule (Apr 30, 2022)

Did he play with the doeling  to death? Or did he maliciously kill her on purpose? 

Separate him now. How old is he? What breed? 

He will be a puppy until 2 1/2 years old. These dogs need training. Yes they make fabulous guard dogs, but they still need training. 

@frustratedearthmother 
@rachels.haven
@Blue Sky
@Ridgetop


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## Garciafarms1 (Apr 30, 2022)

Baymule said:


> Did he play with the doeling  to death? Or did he maliciously kill her on purpose?
> 
> Separate him now. How old is he? What breed?
> 
> ...


I don't know if he played with her to death or if it was on purpose. So they were fine have been ok for the past 3 weeks nothing too outrageous other than chasing the doelings (which was corrected),but everything was good in the morning no signs of nipping or anything but when i got back from work was when i found her dead with some bite marks on her ears mouth area and two puncture wounds on her neck. Bite marks were too small for a bigger dog or any other predator in my area the body was not torn up just those bite marks. He is a Great pyrenees(to what we know his parents were around goats but owner in my opinion pulled him way too young when we got him) he is about 5 months had been doing wonderful with the older goats just this incident that has me wondering..


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## Baymule (Apr 30, 2022)

I am no expert. I have had LGDs for 13 years. I have 3 now, the oldest was put down last year. I’ll post 2 of my dogs journals for you to read. It might give you some ideas. 






						Sentry, Baymule’s Livestock Guard Dog
					

We have two Great Pyrenees, Paris and Trip. Paris is 10 and Trip will be 5 in November. Now is a good time to introduce and train a new puppy. I have been wanting an Anatolian. I was on a Facebook Sheep and goat group when I saw a post for a very Anatolian looking puppy. I kept going back to...



					www.backyardherds.com
				









						Sheba-A Marvelous Gift
					

I was contacted by a person wishing to remain anonymous, with an offer of an Anatolian puppy. As I read the generous offer to BJ, we both burst into tears. Because of Sentry’s hip dysplasia and surgery and our decision not to put him through another surgery, this person felt bad for us. Needless...



					www.backyardherds.com
				




Since you have a dead doeling, I would suggest penning the dog where he can BE with the goats, but not IN with the goats. Go back to square one. Start over on his training. Work him on leash work. Spend time with him and the goats. Give him supervised time, where you can keep an eye on him. 

@Ridgetop has over 30 years experience, she will be along to comment. She is a wealth of information.


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## Garciafarms1 (Apr 30, 2022)

Yeah we pulled him yesterday has a doe with some bucklings in a small pasture behind him so he can see them. My thinking of all this was he was trying to play. Since he is our first LGD on the property my father was hell bent on just letting him learn on his own which i was against from the get go he did learn right away as when he was smaller he grew up with one of my younger bucks sleeping in the same pen but as he got older and bigger we gave him more freedom per say and like i said was doing good till yesterday.


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## Baymule (Apr 30, 2022)

Think of your LGD as a teenager. Most teenagers are fairly responsible. Teenagers don’t always have the best judgement in the moment and can make some real stupid mistakes. It doesn’t make them a bad person, total failure forever with no hope of redemption. They just need direction and guidance towards making the right decisions. 

Not humanizing your dog, just an analogy to help you understand. 

If you have a cantankerous old doe that will thrash him, put them together in a pen. You want to hang around, not let him get hurt, but let her teach him respect.


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## Garciafarms1 (Apr 30, 2022)

Yeah totally understand. I have a buck he follows it was just a case of bad judgment on his part. But hopefully he does gets better


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2022)

LGDs of all breeds are individuals with different sill levels.  Some are fantastic natural guardians who seem to automatically do it all right BUT those dogs are rare cases and not the norm.  

The majority of LGDs, regardless of the breed, go through episodes of play with their charges.  Normally they will have a favorite - their BFF - and this is often the youngster that shows up with bite marks.  

LGDs sometimes go through 2 periods of play behavior with their livestock at different ages. The first can occur anywhere from 3-6 months.  Any play behavior before this will not result in damage so you might not notice it, or think it is "cute".  This equates to childhood behavior.  The second episode occurs anywhere from 12 to 18 months old. This time the behavior will result in worse damage to the animals since the dog is older, larger and has mor bite power.  The LGD may go through one of these age play behaviors or 2 behaviors, or not go through any.  The thing to remember is that this sort of play behavior, if it occurs, is normal teenage behavior and needs to be dealt with immediately.  By the time the dog is 2-3 years old this behavior no linger occurs.  (Excessive chewing of lawn furniture, outside toys, hoses, etc. also usually stops when the dog is 2-3 years old too LOL.)

During this puppyhood/teenagerhood play behavior it is the lambs or kids that show wear and tear since the older flock animals normally won't "play" with the dog by running.  Older animals, in particular cranky ones, will butt the pup to show their annoyance with it.  The young ones are usually the dog's "playmates".  If you watch a litter of pups or even 2 older dogs "playing" with each other you will see that they bite each other's ears, legs, faces and necks.  This play fighting is how young dogs learn to fight predators and in the wild take down prey.  If one pup is too rough the other pup will turn on it and bite back.  This is not what kids or lambs do.  They don't bite the dogs, instead they simply try to run away.  The puppy sees this as play behavior and will give chase.

In the case of your dead doeling, the bite damage was around the ears, and face.  The killing bite was to the neck or even head.  Usually, the killing bite is an accident.  What you don't want to happen is for the dog to decide that killing is more fun than protecting his herd.  

Removing the puppy from the flock was a good decision.  You can try putting the puppy in with adult bucks and does (no kids) to see if the adults will "discipline" the puppy by butting it when it tries to play.  If the adults don't provide strict enough discipline, remove the dog again and supervise his visits to the herd.  

*Guardian dogs do require training. * Different LGDs may require different specialized training depending on what their unwanted behaviors are.  One of our LGDs, a male Anatolian, loved the newborn lambs so much that he tried to steal them from the mothers.  It took several years of lambing to break him of this, along with some behavior modifications of our own human behavior.  This dog has an extremely protective nature, and like all male Anatolians is highly protective of all babies, both human and sheep.  This male never indulged in any teenage "play" behavior.  Our 2 females do not try to steal lambs.  However, one female did go through 2 separate age related episodes of "playing" with her besties.  The second episode at 18 months of age resulted in injuries to a number of 5 months old lambs.  Her behavior required modification by a pen of rams and several months of severe supervision and chastisement when she tried to run after any member of the flock.  She is now an excellent guardian at 3 years old and excellent with lambs.

Take the puppy in with the young kids and *supervise* his behavior.  Scold him for *any* chasing of the animals.  A trained livestock guardian does not chase the animals under his protection.  If the puppy does not listen to your corrections, put him on a leash during this exercise.  Eventually a long lead (20') to make sure you can yank him back from chasing.  

You also need to teach him to come to your call, back away when you walk forward into him (this is a good command to get the dog to move back from a situation you don't want him in) and walk on a leash.  Remember you are going to have to take this 125 lb + adult dog to the vet occasionally and he will need to have some manners so you can control him.

Hopefully we will her that your young LGD has come out of his "Play" phase and is settling into his guardianship job well.


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## Garciafarms1 (May 9, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> LGDs of all breeds are individuals with different sill levels.  Some are fantastic natural guardians who seem to automatically do it all right BUT those dogs are rare cases and not the norm.
> 
> The majority of LGDs, regardless of the breed, go through episodes of play with their charges.  Normally they will have a favorite - their BFF - and this is often the youngster that shows up with bite marks.
> 
> ...


He had a small bout of biting again not too long ago but was biting and the ankles of one of our older goats. He got corrected real quick and didn't want anything to do with the goats but to what i saw it was playing the way he was moving and his mannerisms it was not aggressive at all. Thank you for all the info


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## Garciafarms1 (May 9, 2022)

We kind of found it wierd that with our younger herd of yearlings he would almost herd them into a corner close to the gate to their pen was when let out to pasture and he would not let them move from there.


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2022)

If a young dog is keeping your goats penned in an area near their normal night pen, it could be that the dog is worried about predators in the larger field.  He can smell and hear predators which you cannot and if he judges he is outgunned by the predators will not want to try driving them off. 

A young dog (yours is only 5-6 months old and a puppy) that realizes he is not able to protect his goats against a larger threat will be much more cautious about allowing th herd to spread out to forage.  The larger predator threat may be anything from a couple of large dogs to a cougar, bear, several coyotes, etc.  The young dog will try to keep the herd in a small group that he feels capable of protecting.  In the larger field he will have to guard on many sides over a larger territory.  If he keeps the herd grouped tightly in a small area (particularly if he can back them up against a safety barrier with which he is familiar - in this case the gate and fence to the night pen) he has a smaller area to guard to keep them safe.   It is possible that the larger field is too much territory for him to protect at this age.  He is willing but knows he is at a disadvantage and so he is keeping the herd tightly corralled is a space he feels he can protect.

Can you divide the larger field into smaller pens maybe with electro net or some temporary fencing?


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## Garciafarms1 (May 9, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> If a young dog is keeping your goats penned in an area near their normal night pen, it could be that the dog is worried about predators in the larger field.  He can smell and hear predators which you cannot and if he judges he is outgunned by the predators will not want to try driving them off.
> 
> A young dog (yours is only 5-6 months old and a puppy) that realizes he is not able to protect his goats against a larger threat will be much more cautious about allowing th herd to spread out to forage.  The larger predator threat may be anything from a couple of large dogs to a cougar, bear, several coyotes, etc.  The young dog will try to keep the herd in a small group that he feels capable of protecting.  In the larger field he will have to guard on many sides over a larger territory.  If he keeps the herd grouped tightly in a small area (particularly if he can back them up against a safety barrier with which he is familiar - in this case the gate and fence to the night pen) he has a smaller area to guard to keep them safe.   It is possible that the larger field is too much territory for him to protect at this age.  He is willing but knows he is at a disadvantage and so he is keeping the herd tightly corralled is a space he feels he can protect.
> 
> Can you divide the larger field into smaller pens maybe with electro net or some temporary fencing?


Oh no the field is divided into 6 equal pastures. So he only does this with the yearlings with our older goats he would follow them out and would be out with them for a few hrs then would come back to the yearlings pasture and corral them up to the gate of their night pen which we found odd. So he doesn't do it with all of them just the yearlings.


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## Ridgetop (May 9, 2022)

Many LGDS will show greater care with younger flock members.  It could be that he is more concerned about their safety and feels that the adults dont need as much protection from him.


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## Garciafarms1 (May 9, 2022)

Ridgetop said:


> Many LGDS will show greater care with younger flock members.  It could be that he is more concerned about their safety and feels that the adults dont need as much protection from him.


That does make some sense. I just need to get him ok with the babies. I don't want to loose anymore so I have started back from ground Zero and so far so good


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## Baymule (May 10, 2022)

My Great Pyrenees did the same thing as a young dog. He wouldn't let the sheep out of the barn lot to go to the pasture. He perceived garbage trucks going down the road as danger! As he matured, he grew out of herding the sheep. And the sheep got used to him running up and down the fence barking madly at garbage trucks and scarcely gave him a glance.


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## Ridgetop (May 10, 2022)

Garciafarms1 said:


> That does make some sense. I just need to get him ok with the babies. I don't want to loose anymore so I have started back from ground Zero and so far so good


Remember that your 5-6 month pup is still a baby himself.  Without an older trained dog to show him the ropes he is trying to learn the job by himself.  With your guidance he wil mature into a fine guardian.

When the LGD dog does something wrong we all need to take several steps back, investigate the behavior, and then start the training over.  Good decision.


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## Baymule (May 10, 2022)

Be sure and keep us updated on how he is doing.


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