# Sudden separation/forced weaning x2 squared - please help!



## Sara Ranch (Oct 29, 2017)

I have read some of the posts in this forum, but didn't find my situation exactly. 

I was blessed with two calves [surprise!] that arrived with no history.  I was told (later) that they might be about 6 months old and that they might not have been weaned before they left their momma's.

Well, it turns out that they weren't weaned before being ripped from momma.  They bellowed for momma and a momma in a nearby herd answered and invited my babies over.  The babies went.    I don't blame them.  I wasn't able to meet their needs or even know their needs until they had been here for a bit.

The babies are coming back this coming week.  They've been nursing on another momma who is NOT coming with them.  For the second time in their short lives, they will be taken from a momma milk figure.  

I feel badly for them, but I don't see how this can be prevented.  (The guy won't buy them from me - it's winter - many people are offloading their cattle.  He's selling many of his cows off.)

Any suggestions for helping the babies make the transition to being forced weaned?  For keeping them HERE instead of running off to THERE?  That herd is being moved as we speak, so they shouldn't be able to hear or to answer any bellows from my babies.

For the future - what do I look for as signs the babies have been weaned before they are bought?

I might offer to buy the momma from him, but need to know what is a fair price to offer?  She's got milk, so we know she's had success in birthing.  Don't know anything else about her.

Any and all help is welcome!


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## Baymule (Oct 29, 2017)

Your calves should be fine. If you can't keep them in your fence, build a pen from cow panels to contain them. Son people wean at 6 months, some later. You don't have to buy a milking momma cow for them. Wean them again and this time make sure they can't get out. 

Welcome to the forum! 

@farmerjan @greybeard


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## Hens and Roos (Oct 29, 2017)

I have no knowledge but will tag a couple people for you @greybeard @farmerjan @WildRoseBeef 

Hope you get the answers that you need!


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## Sara Ranch (Oct 29, 2017)

Thank you both!

And *whew* -- I didn't really want to buy a third cow, but was  willing to do so if strongly recommended and details could be worked out.

The cattle man who has my babies has said he will look at my set up and make recommendations to keep the two sad babies at my place.

I guess another question I should be asking is what do I look for to determine age of a calf?


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## Baymule (Oct 29, 2017)

That I can't tell you. Obviously size could be a determining factor, but even that wouldn't be 100%. 

Don't let the weaning tear your heart out. They may bawl for momma, but they will get over it. Keep free choice hay in front of them. Someone who knows more that I will be along to answer your questions in more detail.


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## Latestarter (Oct 29, 2017)

Also, maybe the cattleman who has the calves right now can help you to estimate their ages? Welcome back!


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## greybeard (Oct 29, 2017)

Not enough information to even hazard a guess about their age.
a picture will help a lot..barring that, estimate their weight please (can you easily pick one up?)
Estimate their height from ground level to top of their back.

Have you been able to look in their mouth the short time you had them?
The fact that they are nursing is no indication at all of their age. Calves will nurse up to a year (or more) if allowed to, even after "being weaned".  

Bovines have no incisors on the top of their mouth, just the bottom. From newborn and certainly 6-12 months old, I would expect to see 8 small white incisors--milk teeth. If there are 2 big incisors right in the center, and 3 small white incisors on each side of them, then the calf is much older, at least a year or 18 months old. 

Weaning..
I wean more by weight..not so much by age.  



Need a better description, and......


> I was blessed with two calves [surprise!] that arrived with no history.


Just showed up in your yard one day?

They came from somewhere/someone, find out where/who and ask that 'who' when they were born.


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## farmerjan (Oct 29, 2017)

Hi, Sara.... If the calves are 5-6 months or older, they are plenty big enough to be weaned.  Yes they are going to bawl...the biggest thing is to make sure they CAN NOT get out/ through the fence  to another pasture.  Sometimes a momma cow that has had her calf weaned/sold will take a strange one, as obviously your neighbors cow did.  Some of it may have been that they felt the "safety in numbers"  thing too.  
So that said, if you have to contain them in a stall or very small pen for a few days until they "get over it"  then do so.  If the neighbor is moving his cattle away (presumably for the winter)  then they will have less reason to go since no one will be answering them.   Calves are prone to want to go over/under/through fences. 
I have no idea of what you have for pasture fence.  As for what @Baymule  said, you may have to make a pen with a few cattle panels or reinforce an existing fence with them in order to keep the calves in.  The bad thing is they got out once so will be more inclined to try again.  But any calf that is weaned, for whatever reason, will holler and want to get back to where there is something/someone familiar.  It may last as long as a week, but they will get over it and they will not die from being weaned.  
Keep hay in front of them, and water, both available 24/7;   and establish a routine of feeding a little grain to them once or twice a day so they associate you with something good, namely food.  They will need somewhere around 2-5 lbs per day per calf;  starting slowly like a pound or so, so that they are actually looking for you.  It may take them a few days to even get used to it or learn to eat it if they have not been exposed to it.  A sweet feed that has some molasses will be more tempting in the beginning, and they will smell it easier so will be more likely to look for it in the feed trough.

Understand that in nature the cow would be weaning them by making less milk and even kicking them away as she gets heavy with her pregnancy and to prepare for the next calf.  Weaning is a normal part of life.  Some accept it easier than others.  Don't get too upset over it...some really get carried away and some will holler for a day or two then just go on and start eating.  It is easier if they have been getting some feed along with their momma before they are taken away, so they know what feed is, but since that is not an option, just make sure they cannot get out loose and they will get over it.  We normally wean from 5-8 months, according to various factors at the time.  

No matter the situation, any animal that is moved to a strange place will be a bit nervous.  Weaning adds to the stress for a few days.  As a general rule of thumb, calves are weaned in the 5-8 month age, will weigh in the 400-600 lb size.  This is dependent on breed also, so it is a very general guide.  
It sounds like you really want them to do good, don't feel like being "forced weaned"  is such a bad thing.  There are all different ways to wean calves, but sometimes if they are used to getting some feed out of a feed trough along with their mommas, simple taking them away and letting them holler for a few days is the kindest.  Some will fenceline wean, where the calves can see the mommas, but not be able to reach through to get any milk...very secure fences like woven wire are essential,  and they feel a little more secure with momma close for a few days.  Some I have found will still carry on for days after fenceline weaning and we are of the opinion that just a sudden break and removing the cows and calves from each other and not being within earshot, is the easiest for us.  But all our calves know what a bucket of feed is from being fed with the group prior to that.


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## mysunwolf (Oct 30, 2017)

Also, cattle in a new place are really hard on the fences for the first week or so, then they will settle down. I agree with @Baymule that you may need to build a pen out of cattle panels to contain them while they get used to your property. Then, I agree with what the others have said: free choice hay (grass is fine), a good quality calf grain, and a water tub. They will be fine! Hope you can find someone local to you to determine their age.


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## Sid Post (Nov 1, 2017)

Weaning is a fact of life.  Bawling is too.  Even after almost a year on the cow, a calf and cow will still BAWL for each other after separation.  Sure a young underweight calf will need to be bottle fed but, an older calf that can and will eat grass, hay, grain, etc. is going to be fine.

At weaning or separation, if your fences aren't good and solid, the cow and calf both will 'escape' and go looking for the other.  Nursing a different cow is unusual and generally requires a cow recently separated from her calf.  Calves will seek an 'easy' meal if a nursing cow will let them nurse.

I definitely would not buy a 'nurse' cow for them.  It is simply unnecessary.  It's not uncommon to see freshly weaned calves at an auction.  That doesn't mean they have been mistreated either.  It is just the way it is.  Granted, I never sold freshly weaned calves myself as I timed them to hit fresh wheat pasture about this time of year or a bit later depending on wheat growth and ground moisture as I don't want them 'mudding' me out of a wheat crop.

When the nursing mother cow dies prematurely, I will bottle feed to a point the calf can fend for itself.  Generally, this is around 200 to 300 pounds.  Weaning *should not be based on age*.  It is all about size and health.

Just like your children when they are dropped off at school or daycare for the first time, the calves too will figure it out and grow up to join their adult peers.


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 1, 2017)

Wow.  Thank you.  I haven't received any alerts to these new responses - not even the one from today!  I actually came back to this post to make a new post with questions.

Thank you to all that replied.

My babies combined weight is 1100.  One is definitely smaller than the other.  (Smaller one is probably 400# and the larger one is probably closer to 600#.)  I have pictures but am unable to get them on my computer right now.  I will post them later.  

The local cattle guy who has my babies said that they had not been weaned from their mama.  He's already moved his herd off the mountain.  All but the stragglers he's trying to corral up.  Once he's taken care of his stragglers, he will bring my babies home.  I have asked him (and he said yes) that he will look at my set up to make sure I can keep my babies in.

The previous owners had told me that they had no problems with the cattle fencing in place.  They even had cows here when I looked at the place.  I think the main difference was age of the cows he had been buying versus the age of the cows I received.  (I found out later that their cows got out often.)

It's definitely a learning experience!!

Ok - more questions because I feel like the research I have done, especially with talking to local cattle people over the years, may have contained some information that is not ideal for my situation.

My goal is to raise a small herd (2-10) cattle, free range/pasture raised to sell and to fill my freezer.

1.  Best age range to get a calf?
2.  Best age to take cow to butcher?
3.  What to plant for the cows to graze on?  I have orchard grass & rye. I provide sweet feed to supplement.  Suppose to be getting hay when there is snow on the ground.
4.  How to tell if I am actually getting MY cow that I took to the butcher back?  I've heard stories of people taking their cows in to be butchered, (raised on no grain, orchard grass, etc) picking up "their" meat, and peeking around back to see THEIR cow still hobbled or in the pen!
5.  How long should the meat hang?
6.  Should the butcher/facility weigh the cow coming in so we have an idea of hang weight?
7.  What's a fair "butcher fee" and price per pound?  Around here they charge a fee plus.
8.  If I want "dry aged" beef, how long should it hang?
9.  What do I look for in a butcher & processing facility?

Believe me, if I knew of someone I could trust to harvest my cow and give me my meat, I'd probably use that person!  And those folks local (to here) never ever wondered if they were actually getting THIER cow back!  They just assumed that the butcher tracked it all and actually gave them their meat.


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## mysunwolf (Nov 1, 2017)

1.  Best age range to get a calf?
Totally subjective. Some people buy calves that are a few days old because they can get them cheap. Some people prefer weaned calves at a couple hundred lbs that they can throw on a field. You have to look at the numbers and see what is best for your operation financially.

2.  Best age to take cow to butcher?
For me, it's more dependent on weight than age. That said, some people butcher at 8 months, others at 24+ months. Some butcher at 800lbs, others at 1200lbs. Adding in some grain will get them to weight faster, 100% grass fed and finished will get you there slower. 

3.  What to plant for the cows to graze on?  I have orchard grass & rye. I provide sweet feed to supplement.  Suppose to be getting hay when there is snow on the ground.
Beef calves can get quite a bit off poor quality pasture, as long as you're supplementing with sweet feed. We have native grass and forbes pastures that have been interplanted with fescue, orchard grass, timothy, clover. We frost seed some grasses and clovers every couple of years to improve the fields.

4.  How to tell if I am actually getting MY cow that I took to the butcher back?  I've heard stories of people taking their cows in to be butchered, (raised on no grain, orchard grass, etc) picking up "their" meat, and peeking around back to see THEIR cow still hobbled or in the pen!
Talk to other producers, they should give you a good idea which slaughterhouses are the most trustworthy. Though they're much more expensive, we've had good luck using USDA processors.

5.  How long should the meat hang?
Again, this is based on personal taste. Some people like it to hang 7 days, others prefer 21 days. I've bought steaks from different beef producers to try out how many days I like my beef aged.

6.  Should the butcher/facility weigh the cow coming in so we have an idea of hang weight?
Some weigh live animals, some don't. Ours just provides us with the hanging weight, and we pay based on that.

7.  What's a fair "butcher fee" and price per pound?  Around here they charge a fee plus.
It really depends on the type of facility, packaging, type of processing, and your location. Our processor only charges per lb for beef--last I checked it was about $0.50/lb hanging weight. But others charge a flat fee, plus a per lb fee, in addition to packaging costs, hang time, and more. 

8.  If I want "dry aged" beef, how long should it hang?
I have no clue.

9.  What do I look for in a butcher & processing facility?
It's really up to you. Inexpensive shouldn't be the highest priority. Other producers (as long as they aren't worried that you're competition) may be able to show you their packaging, or tell you if the animals were treated well, the cuts were done correctly, the staff was easy to work with, the price was fair, etc.

*Edited so this makes more sense to people


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## farmerjan (Nov 1, 2017)

Read through the response that Sara Ranch made above.  Basically she hit it all.  Unless you have alot of time, and can get baby calves cheap, and they are beef breed calves, you are most likely better off getting weaned type calves in the 4-600 lb range.  They will be eating, well able to handle grass, hay, some grain.  Baby calves are cute, but can not only be somewhat expensive, there is a learning curve and when they get sick, they get sick quick and die quick.  Not trying to scare you.  But knowing they had colostrum, getting them on a GOOD milk replacer @ about $60-75 a 50 lb bag, dealing with possible scours, coccidiosis, pnuemonia or other respiratory problems, and the added time to get them to the 500 lb size so they can easily go on pasture, is not usually worth it anymore.  On top of that, unless a cow gets mastitis, or dies or some other real bad problem, no beef farmer will take a baby calf off a beef cow just to sell it.  So that leaves dairy breed calves.  Holsteins grow faster and are more common, jerseys are little, cute and can scour and die quick if you overfeed plus they cost next to nothing but it takes them up to 2 years to get enough size to butcher.  I raise them, but they are on nurse cows and get all the milk they need just like a beef calf.  I like them, but for a beginner, it's a real fine line until you get the feel for how to raise a baby calf.  Again, not trying to scare you off. But no sense in starting with a difficult beginning, get some experience under your belt.
 I typically take my jersey steers in at about 8-900 lbs.  They are in the 24 month range.  The meat is usually tender and flavorful.  Anything over 30 months has to be treated differently because of the BSE ( or mad cow disease)  and the backbone and spinal tissue and brain tissue must be checked for the BSE.  Federal law.  So no T-bones and no backbone for soup or dog bones.  Not the end of the world, you get filet and NY strips and cuts with no bone.  Bone takes up alot of room in the freezer too.

We get a hanging weight from the slaughter house and that is what we pay on.  Yes, about $.50 a lb of hanging weight. Total.  Last one I took hung at about 700 and cost about $300.  Depends too, I only vaccuum pack, and cube steaks are a little more, and patties as opposed to just ground beef in a lb pkg.... things like that.  It's a flat fee to kill, then by the lb. with the extras, as I listed some above.

Have heard a few stories over the years but I trust our butcher completely.  You need to just ask around an see if someone likes one over another.  
Grass fed needs to hang longer than grain fed.  14 to 21 days is better.

Orchard grass makes a good pasture, native grasses and clovers...rye is alot of water but makes a good cold weather forage.  They like it.  Wheat pastures are popular out in the plains etc for calves to graze for a short time too.  If you don't have it, don't plant fescue.  It has a toxicity that makes it unpalatable until it is frosted then the starches turn to sugars.  It is not good for pregnant animals.  In the summer it will increase a cows body temp and can cause abortion.  It is a good grass if managed right, I personally want no part of it.  Once it gets established it is nearly impossible to get rid of.  It's not that dangerous in a mixed pasture, just don't invite it if it is not already there.
The better the pasture, the better and faster they gain; with or without grain.  I won't graze marginal pasture with the growing calves, the older dry cows will get the less than great fields and they get a little supplement if the grazing is poor.


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## greybeard (Nov 1, 2017)

I've trailer weaned several loads of them when the weather was fixin to turn bad and I needed to get them to the sale before it got too muddy to get a trailer in and backed up to the pen. Just part of business. 

Calves better figure it out, and pretty quick too if they don't want to take a scenic ride. Life's too short to put up with calves going thru fences and I sure won't put up with a half growed milk theif.


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## Sid Post (Nov 2, 2017)

Sara Ranch said:


> My babies combined weight is 1100.  One is definitely smaller than the other.  (Smaller one is probably 400# and the larger one is probably closer to 600#.)  I have pictures but am unable to get them on my computer right now.  I will post them later.



They should be weaned at that weight, especially if you're looking at an 1100# sale weight for the pair.  Sale barn stress will cause them to drop some weight as will weaning.



Sara Ranch said:


> The previous owners had told me that they had no problems with the cattle fencing in place.  They even had cows here when I looked at the place.  I think the main difference was age of the cows he had been buying versus the age of the cows I received.  (I found out later that their cows got out often.)



Bad fencing is a common issue for many 'ranchettes', no offense intended.  I see it often when someone from the big city buys their 'little ranch'.  They don't know what they don't know and fencing seems to be something frequently learned last.  Now add all the labor involved and the idyllic dream is not as they had imagined.  This is where new owners typically either 'dig in' and learn what they need to or, move on to a cottage on the lake, condo by the sea, etc.

Raising livestock can be rewarding in non-financial terms but, the labor required is often underestimated.  



Sara Ranch said:


> Ok - more questions because I feel like the research I have done, especially with talking to local cattle people over the years, may have contained some information that is not ideal for my situation.
> 
> My goal is to raise a small herd (2-10) cattle, free range/pasture raised to sell and to fill my freezer.
> 
> ...



*First on herd size, make sure you have enough pasture for your herd size or you will be running a feedlot.*  If you want grass fed free range cattle, you need to pay attention to herd density on your pasture.  If heavy supplemental feeding is not an issue, it becomes more an issue of not killing the grass (walking on it) and manure control.

1.  Best age range to get a calf?
Not really age, size.  Are they big enough to weather the cold, snow, rain, etc?  Can they eat enough grass to thrive?  With beef cattle, generally I would guess 6 to 9 months is an average weaning age range

2.  Best age to take cow to butcher?
Older cattle don't taste as good as younger cattle.  Beef cattle produce better steaks.  Yes, you can eat dairy cattle too but, the muscle fibers are tougher on average (we aren't talking about veal here) and the amount of fat in the muscle is less.

3.  What to plant for the cows to graze on?  I have orchard grass & rye. I provide sweet feed to supplement.  Suppose to be getting hay when there is snow on the ground.
Sounds like you have a good place for some calves.  Simple answer is to look at what other ranchers are doing in your area for a place to start.  Wheat pasture works best where I grew up because we were in the wheat belt.  Where I live now, clover works better in this soil and moisture profile.  Geography matters a lot with forage.

I see you are in Wyoming.  When the ground is covered in snow, DEFINITELY give them plenty of hay.  Supplement with "range cubes" for more protein and some minerals.

Also, I assume you have shelter for them.  Where I live, good tree cover is fine however, your winters are a lot more severe than mine.

4.  How to tell if I am actually getting MY cow that I took to the butcher back?  I've heard stories of people taking their cows in to be butchered, (raised on no grain, orchard grass, etc) picking up "their" meat, and peeking around back to see THEIR cow still hobbled or in the pen!
The simple answer here is that you need to trust your butcher.  If your butcher is *stealing *your steaks, it will be very hard to prove in a court of law.  However, the 'locals' will know the bad apples and they typically will get driven away if they have unethical business practices.

On a practical note, for many people it really doesn't matter in a practical sense because the meat isn't particularly special other than being from your specific animal.  Where this really matters most is with special dietary considerations.

In my case, I can see the difference in fat between corn finished and pasture finished cattle and you can definitely taste the difference too.  Heavy molasses finish feeding will also show up in the taste of your steak.  Marbling may be a boogey man in terms of various diets and news reports but, marbling provides a huge amount of the taste most people consider to be the beef flavor.  It also significantly affects tenderness in many cuts of meat.

5.  How long should the meat hang?
Long enough to drain the blood, generally a few days.  Ask your butcher what they recommend and why.  Also, don't overthink this one.

6.  Should the butcher/facility weigh the cow coming in so we have an idea of hang weight?
The simple answer here is:
Run your loaded trailer across the scales at the Co-op (or similar place),
Then deliver your calves to the butcher,
Then weigh your empty trailer.

Final hang weight and delivered weight will vary based on how you have the animal butchered.  Realize there will some variation from animal to animal and there is no specific 'percentages' but, there are averages for what is discarded versus delivered.

Be specific with your butcher if you want the bones, fat, skin, etc. for dog food or other uses.

7.  What's a fair "butcher fee" and price per pound?  Around here they charge a fee plus.
I can't speak to what is common where you live but, a flat fee plus price per pound per type of cut is typical.  More labor, higher per pound fees.

8.  If I want "dry aged" beef, how long should it hang?
Dry age and wet age is a whole tome of its own! 

*Wet aging to me is meaningless and purely a marketing gimmick.*
Dry aging requires specific temperature and humidity and can lead to lots of meat weight loss.

I don't consider a hanging carcass "dry aging" but opinions vary.  If you want true dry aging, the surface area of the meat needs to be exposed to 'air'.  Drying the surface of a big  mass of meat really doesn't concentrate the flavor IMHO.  I guess if you dry aged a complete carcass for months, you could eventually get there but, why?  Roasts, steaks, etc. dry age much faster and give you much better control.

9.  What do I look for in a butcher & processing facility?
Basically the same things you look for in a restaurant.  Does the cook/butcher look clean and well kept or are they a greasy mess with a cigarette dangling from their lips?  Is the facility clean?  Does is stink (it should smell like fresh meat) or remind you of a left over fish in the grocery store display case?

*Yes, I am passionate about treating meat right.  Also, you don't get good meat by abusing or coddling your animals.  Finally, don't treat your calves, goats, sheep as pets or children and expect them to live happy lives as the animals they are.*


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## Baymule (Nov 2, 2017)

We're taking 2 hogs to slaughter next week. Processing is $1.05 a pound, vacuum sealed, plus a $50 kill fee.


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2017)

Sid Post said:


> Bad fencing is a common issue for many 'ranchettes', no offense intended. I see it often when someone from the big city buys their 'little ranch'. They don't know what they don't know and fencing seems to be something frequently learned last. Now add all the labor involved and the idyllic dream is not as they had imagined. This is where new owners typically either 'dig in' and learn what they need to or, move on to a cottage on the lake, condo by the sea, etc.
> 
> Raising livestock can be rewarding in non-financial terms but, the labor required is often underestimated.



Lot of that has to do with the cattle themselves..the docility and how high headed they are. Sometimes, one can get by with a substandard fence if the cattle they acquire have previously been trained to and raised in a good fence.


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## Sid Post (Nov 2, 2017)

greybeard said:


> Lot of that has to do with the cattle themselves..the docility and how high headed they are. Sometimes, one can get by with a substandard fence if the cattle they acquire have previously been trained to and raised in a good fence.



Agreed.  Calves from an auction are a bit of an unknown.  Certain breed characteristics can make them easier or harder to work with.  

Weaning calves (and younger) typically aren't sensitive to fencing but, they can be trained to honor electric fences.  I never had a barbwire fence that would keep young calves in but, they didn't stray far from Momma.  Weaning time always required a good corral and a trailer.

For me, Angus were the worst about testing fences and gates.  Dairy steers/bulls were the meanest I was ever around.  In general, the classic British breeds are pretty easy to work with the more exotic ones being a handful at times.  I had a really nice Simmental bull on some Hereford cows that worked out well but, the others like Chianina and Brahma are best avoided by most people (though they have their specific uses for some ranches).


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## greybeard (Nov 2, 2017)

I got a simm/char bull that no fence (except really hot electric) will hold if there's heat on the other side of it.
I can hold calves on the originally 5 strand barbed wire fences that I went back to and stretched HT slick wire between the bottom 3 strands of barbed wire. A twist stay between each line post will help a lot too, but the strands have to be TIGHT!.



> the others like Chianina and Brahma are best avoided by most people (though they have their specific uses for some ranches).


The easiest doers I have are my Beefmasters (1/2 Brahma).  Lots easier to pen and work with, the're all dog gentle,  and so much more easy to keep in any fence than my Charolais are.


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 3, 2017)

I will try to respond to each point.  If I miss something, please let me know!

@farmerjan - I have a “buyer”.  Basically told my friend if you find some cows, the cows are healthy, and you can pick me up a few (minimum one, prefer a minimum of two), please do.  I was clear about not wanting to bottle feed a calf.

I have no interest in bottle feeding a calf.  Life has a way of happening and if it happened that I was in the situation where a calf needed to be bottle fed to live, I would take on that responsibility.

My buyer has had cattle almost all of his life and has a pretty good feel for cows.  His approach and mine are different.  I openly talk about my cows taking a vacation while he doesn’t mention any of his learning or life experiences until someone asks a direct question.  (Noted - and I am learning which questions to ask.)

He buys for me for several reasons.  

He has an animal trailer and can bring the cows home to me. (There’s no chance of my buying one in the near or being able to borrow one.)
I have a “feel” for an animal about health when I see it, but am still learning for all of the physical signs to look for with a cow for problems.
3.   It’s a man’s world out there, around here.  At the auctions, It’s super rare to see a woman there.  (I have gone, on my own, to learn more about the auctions.)

4.  I have tried to buy from local farmers but run into the “oh you must be a city girl” mentality and the price gauging begins.  So, no, Mr. Farmer, I will NOT pay you $300 for a newborn calf that lost his mommy during childbirth plus a $100 delivery fee because that is what you would get at auction.  Nope.  At best, you are looking at $20 at auction.  I run into that stuff often.

5.  I am not a city girl.  I don’t speak “Macho Male” very well either.  I think my independence streak has been an influence.  

I don’t want a dairy cow, per se.  I have no interest in milking daily, or twice daily.  Now if I had the pigs here (<—- in a year or two), then sure.  Between the rest of the animals, the milk will not go to waste.  I could probably sell - I mean “give” - some milk to neighbors.  OR cost cow share.

*VERY good to know about the age of the cow going to butcher.  I was unaware of the 30 month rule.  Does this rule apply to ALL cows or just dairy cows?*

To me, all cows are cute.  

In my pastures (I have about 18 acres of safe, fenced pasture with orchard grass and rye) for the cows to graze on.  I intend to rotate pastures once the cows have been here for a few weeks.  The girls are currently in a holding pen (which I had all along, but my buyer said nope, you don’t need it.  I have since learned that HE didn’t like the idea of using it, so he told me not to use it.)  I added a cattle panel and a bull gate.  So far, so good, but we haven’t reached the 24 hour mark yet since the girls came back from vacation.  

The girls have a little grass in the holding pen, plus this year’s hay, plus sweet feed twice a day.  I am not big on the sweet feed thing, but am doing it because it is recommended.  It was recommended that I go buy “grain” to feed the girls.  Yet, no one can tell me what “grain” to get at Tractor Supply.   (The only stuff I have seen at TSC is sweet corn in one bag and whole or rolled oats in another bag.)  My preference is to pasture raise the girls, allow them access to the mineral block & water, until harvest.

_I will make a note to keep fescue grass off the property.  _

I don’t intend to get into calfing, but things happen sometimes.  I would rather be prepared.  I have read on this site that some girl cows get pregnant as young as 4-6 months.  I would be surprised if my girls were, but again, life happens.

@Sid Post - I don’t take offense.  It is what it is.  I am in a man’s world here (farming/cattle) and the “Good Ol’ Boys” club is super strong here.  I have strong instincts about what will and won’t work for a situation and a way with animals.  The men around here shake their heads  and say they can’t believe I did that or got the animals to do that, but when it comes to listening to me about what should be done, forget it.

My fencing has a lot of room for improvement.  The previous owners used it with success and with failure.  The cattle guy who brought my girls home said it was sufficient to keep the girls in AFTER they had been here for a few weeks and were use to the place.  The local farm bureau folks chuckled and said none of my fencing was good enough for ANY animal.  

With time, my fencing will be improved and will be safe for all the animals here.

The girls broke a fence post, pushed down the fencing, ducked under the electrical wire, to get out to go find a milk momma.  It took them three or four days to break the wooden fence post.  I learned a lesson from this.

I currently have about 18 acres of fenced pastures with orchard grass and rye growing on it.  I plan to slowly extend out and reclaim old pasture land, fence it, and bring water.  A few decades ago, all of this land was used for cattle.  Over time, fences have fallen down, posts have rotted, nature has reclaimed some areas.  The main 18 acres were more or less maintained.  I still have work to do in those 18 acres, which I try to make progress on each week.

— the progress is to remove “trash” that was either left behind, blown in, dragged in by other animals, or that the mountain pushed up.  It’s a daily thing.  Amazingly, I find new stuff almost every day.  It is what it is.

— the progress is to remove branches that have fallen down or are hanging down.  Sometimes trees die.  If they look like they will stand up on their own for a while, I leave them.

— the progress is to remove the rocks and poisonous (to animals and to people) plants and dispose of them.

— walking the fence line almost daily to check for weaknesses or things to repair.

My girls are angus beef.

When looking around me (and having talked to local cattle people for years), I know my set up is “sweet” compared to how many are raising cattle.

I am in WV, on a mountain.  I am still waiting for the soil analysis to come back for the main cattle pastures.  I’ve had a couple of people come and say the soil is good.  I have been “rehabbing” the soil - trying to bring it to an energetic level, so it’s not so tired & depleted that nothing will grow.  It’s a work in progress.  (Thank you animals for pooping in the grass!)

I have had dry aged beef and can taste a difference. I love dry aged bacon.  To me, there is a HUGE taste difference.  I think that I am leaning towards a minimum of 3 week hang, with a maximum of a 6 week hang.  I have been told by cattle people, “dry age” is a 6-10 week hang.

And that any meat hung for less than 2 weeks will taste terrible!  Who knows?  I didn’t sample that meat.


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## Sara Ranch (Nov 3, 2017)

I will try to respond to each point.  If I miss something, please let me know!

@Baymule - What was the turn around time with the pig and the butcher?  Does the butcher hang the pig for a certain amount of time?

Around here, pigs are harvested and immediately processed - no hang time.

About how much did the pigs weight?

@greybeard - Do you have any recommendations for cattle breeds?  I am looking for beef cattle.  The cattle guy who brought my girls home had recommended getting steers in the future, instead of heifers.  He did not recommend a breed.  (He would rather talk to a man about cattle, than a woman.  I had male company at the time he stopped by.  I didn’t exist.)

I just went pale.  I hadn’t thought of the whole mating thing.  I will have to ask if the cattle man brings up bulls to do his business or not.  He grazes his herd about a mile away in one direction.  The other guy - never met him and don’t have contact information for him - has cattle about 1 or 2 miles down mountain from me.  I have no idea how he makes his cow babies!   Oh boy.  Cattle man did suggest I contact a vet to get my girls artificially inseminated.  While they may be 6 months old now (thereabouts), isn’t that too young to get my girls pregnant?  And is November the ideal time to do it?  (To here him talk, now’s the time!)

@Sid Post - I don’t have barbed wire on the current fencing.  It’s welded wire with electric.  Would you recommend a strand of barbed wire?  Lots of folks around here used the barbed wire to keep people out and to keep animals in.

I am not a fan, in general, of auctions.  Why do they need my banker’s personal contact information if I am paying cash for an animal?  Well, he’s a reference for you.  Uh, again, if I am paying CASH why do I need a reference.  Well, that’s just how we do things.  We need at least five references for you…  I am buying, not selling.  Don’t matter.  (When my buyer goes, he uses his account to make the purchases.)   *Does anyone know WHY the auction house wants all of this personal information???*

I mentioned in an early post why that has become my only option to get reasonably priced cattle thus far.  I hope over time, that will change.


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## Sid Post (Nov 3, 2017)

greybeard said:


> I got a simm/char bull that no fence (except really hot electric) will hold if there's heat on the other side of it.
> I can hold calves on the originally 5 strand barbed wire fences that I went back to and stretched HT slick wire between the bottom 3 strands of barbed wire. A twist stay between each line post will help a lot too, but the strands have to be TIGHT!.
> 
> 
> The easiest doers I have are my Beefmasters (1/2 Brahma).  Lots easier to pen and work with, the're all dog gentle,  and so much more easy to keep in any fence than my Charolais are.



A bit off topic:

How does the high tensile wire work for you?

I'm getting ready to re-fence and I'm debating 5 strand barb wire vs. high tensile slick wire.


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## Baymule (Nov 3, 2017)

Our first pig we raised (we raised 3 but I didn't keep stats on the other 2) we took to slaughter March 18, 2016. We picked up the meat April 13, 2016. We had the hams smoked and cured, and had the bacon done likewise. She weighed 204 pounds live weight and hanging weight was 159 pounds. I didn't weigh the finished meat. I don't know if they hung the carcass or not.

We are taking 2 to slaughter on November 6, I will update my thread and tag you with information.


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## Sid Post (Nov 3, 2017)

@Sara Ranch

West Virginia, not Wyoming ... iPhone So strikes again 

Rotten posts and pushed down fencing.  That helps.

First, board fences look nice but, you couldn't pay me enough to put one in.  Besides expense, they are high maintenance.  Pipe fencing along the road looks nice and needs paint infrequently.

4 strand barb wire can work with adult cattle but 5 strand is a lot better.  Barb wire that isn't tight won't work.  Post spacing and stringers are important.  I'm a big fan of T posts but, soft soil still requires a lot of wood posts to keep it from getting pushed down.

Regarding breeding, 6 months seems a bit early to me.  Angus and other British breeds don't grow as fast as some others.  Pulling a calf would be really stressful for *YOU*.  You want their hips to be fully grown at birth otherwise you risk pulling a calf or a C section.  9 months is pretty good.  I always timed birthing to wheat pasture with births in December and January.   Now I look for first grass in early March so momma has plenty of groceries without heavy supplemental feeding.

A black 'baldy' steer would be much easier to learn with.  Their dispositions are generally pretty mild and docile.  They are less like to stray because they aren't looking to breed.  Also, black baldy is a Hereford and Angus cross.

My Hereford steers would go back to the corrals were I fed them when I left the gate open and they got out if I yelled at them.  They would walk around more out of curiosity as much as anything.  Had a show heifer do that once and drink a pan of used motor oil .  Things worked after a couple days.


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## greybeard (Nov 3, 2017)

Sid Post said:


> A bit off topic:
> 
> How does the high tensile wire work for you?
> 
> I'm getting ready to re-fence and I'm debating 5 strand barb wire vs. high tensile slick wire.


It works great for what I'm using it for. I don't have any fences with just slick wire--I started with barbed wire and already had two 4000' rolls of HT slick so decided to use it between the strands of barb wire on existing fences that get some pressure when I'm weaning calves. 
Used to have a lot of hot wire HT but have gotten away from that.
I do not use the ratchet strainers with HT slick wire--can't get it tight enough with them. Using gripples and their tensioning tool. I like em..plenty tight and lots easier on the hands and fingers.


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## greybeard (Nov 3, 2017)

Sid Post said:


> A black 'baldy' steer would be much easier to learn with. Their dispositions are generally pretty mild and docile. They are less like to stray because they aren't looking to breed. Also, black baldy is a Hereford and Angus cross.


make it a super baldy and I'm all in. 



> My Hereford steers would go back to the corrals were I fed them when I left the gate open and they got out if I yelled at them. They would walk around more out of curiosity as much as anything. Had a show heifer do that once and drink a pan of used motor oil . Things worked after a couple days.


i bet 'things' worked really good while that oil was working it's way out..


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