# Worried *please advise!*



## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

So I see all these pics of gorgeous, fatty goats & I'm told this is "normal" for an open doe. Now I am worried because my lil doe just looks like any normal weight animal. She doesn't seem to have a big 'ole rumen. But, she doesn't really seem skinny/bony to me either. Look at this pic experts & tell me if I should be trying to get some weight on my girl..  Thanks!!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 30, 2011)

With good quality hay and plenty of alfalfa (and a little time) your gal will adjust to her new home/new feed and develop her rumen.  I like my does a little plumper going into breeding/kidding/early lactation.  That way they have plenty of reserves and don't come out of early lactation underconditioned.


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## 20kidsonhill (Sep 30, 2011)

I was thinking not bad, but maybe needs a little more weight on her going into breeding or going to a show.  But nothing to be embarrassed about.


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## elevan (Sep 30, 2011)

Get your hands on her.  Tell us how she feels.  Pictures can be very deceiving.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

Well I went out to see how she feels  She feels happy (tail wagging & smiling) lol She feels like she doesn't want me to feel her belly (running away while I'm trying to feel it) lol And, probably the answer you're actually looking for, she feels somewhat round, somewhat firm & doesn't feel bony at all....


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## Goatmasta (Sep 30, 2011)

She is a little skinny and if she were shaved it would be much more evident.  Her belly is not where you need to feel, her top line is.  I can see her prominent hips, not a bad thing if she were in milk.


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## redtailgal (Sep 30, 2011)

I have been struggling to get my two mutt wethers (they are boer, spanish, and nubian) up to what I thought looked like a decent weight.

Plato is hopelessly thin, he is worm free, eating like a horse and gaining weight SLOW.

Socrates.....well, I THOUGHT he still looked thin.  He was narrow, and his hips are a little visible.  I've been working to get weight on him.  The other day, I did just what was suggested here, I got my hands on him. 

He was gooshy.  He is fat and his hipbones show.  He is a healthy goat that looks thin. (oooohhhh, what I wouldnt give to have that problem for myself)

Seriously, put your hands on that goat. Look up the goat body conditioning charts, they will give you a pretty good idea of what to look for.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

Well here is what they eat.

1/2 stock sweet feed pellet/ 1/2 Dumor Goat pellet mix (what they were eating when they came to me)
alfalfa pellet & calf manna & boss mixed into the mix (not a measured amount, but the mix looks even when I'm done) *I have added this component, recently* I plan to increase the alfalfa & cut the grain back a bit, slowly.

They get 1 full large beverage cup (burger king) lol twice to 3 times a day depending on if they finish the 2nd feeding quickly or not. This is poured into 2 separate feed buckets for the 2 of them.

They also get a handful of manna pro goat mineral added to each feeding. (split halfway between them) 

The doe gets 10ml of Omega 3 & b vitamin livestock supplement 2x a day.

They get free serve coastal hay & free browse

They get fresh clean water at all times

I know they are probably getting fed more than they should right now but I am trying to get them to gain a little bit of weight.


And that's it.... lol 

Also, her hip bones do look like they stick out a little more in the picture than they do in actuality because of the way she is standing & the fact she is balancing on a tree....


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## helmstead (Sep 30, 2011)

Please look into a different brand of goat feed.  Dumor is one of the worst quality ones out there IMO.  TSC should also carry Noble Goat Grower...a much better choice.  I don't like sweet feed for goats either, as a ration.  I do use it on the stanchion, but that is the only place.  I don't think it adds anything for a growing animal...but it does keep my milker's heads in the feeder while I'm milking!  And, no cheap all stock, either...a high quality textured sweet made for horses.

When you mix like you are doing, you actually drive the protein and fat DOWN.  Ideally, growing and producing dairy goats should be consuming 16-18% protein through the total diet (including hay)...burmuda hay is not helping that either.

My juniors are creep fed until they can't fit in the creep any longer.  No fillers, all medicated goat pellet plus alfalfa hay.  So, IMO, you're definitely NOT overfeeding.  The way I do it, you can't really overfeed a junior ND.

Your doe is, at this point in her development, slab sided.  This should improve with freshening...but that has a lot to do with the lack of big rumen.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

Thanks  I actually bought the noble goat today & plan to transition slowly to it. Then I will phase out the sweet feed pellet. I just didn't want to change too much too soon & with wanting to get some weight on them I wanted to get the alfalfa, BOSS & Calf Manna added in there 1st ...  


Editing to add I think I will give them calf manna on the milk stand, that my hubby just built for me today!!!!!  They eat that stuff like candy!!!! I may mix it with the alfalfa pellets since they take a little longer to chew that.... LOL


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## helmstead (Sep 30, 2011)

My point was, forget the BOSS, alfalfa pellets and Calf Manna...just get them on creep with the Noble Goat, and you'll see an improvement in 2 weeks...maybe three.

Go back to basics, see what happens, and edit from there...


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## redtailgal (Sep 30, 2011)

I agree with Helmsted, in my beginner mind.

I fed Noble goat to Socrates and Plato, and they do fine on it.  They were thin in part to the worms and in part to my fear of UC.

My meat wether is on goat sweet feed, but only because it was accidentaly purchased.  I wont ever intentionaly buy it.

I am using the calf manna for the meat wether, just to pack on some lbs.


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## that's*satyrical (Sep 30, 2011)

ahhh. So you're saying give them free choice noble goat & totally cut out what they were eating before?? That seems to go against what everyone else on here has been saying. Or are you saying cut out the xtra stuff for now & slowly add in the noble until that is all they are eating, free choice. Then maybe add the other stuff later?? Sorry but I am a newb so just learning here...  creep means free choice though right? Is that safe to do with the buck out there though? They are my only 2 goats so it is hard to separate them for feeding even if I just close her away from him she cries for him. I guess they would probably get over it & eat after a few minutes though....but still the whole creep feed thing would be next to impossible....if that is in actuality free choice....


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 1, 2011)

I agree with Helmstead about not fussing with supplements until you get the foundation of their diet balanced and at the quality where it needs to be.  For us, alfalfa and good quality grain ration (where needed) is that foundation.  I second scrapping the dumor and sweet feed.  I would also reserve the calf manna until you see what your foundation is doing for her.


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## helmstead (Oct 1, 2011)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> ahhh. So you're saying give them free choice noble goat & totally cut out what they were eating before?? That seems to go against what everyone else on here has been saying. Or are you saying cut out the xtra stuff for now & slowly add in the noble until that is all they are eating, free choice. Then maybe add the other stuff later?? Sorry but I am a newb so just learning here...  creep means free choice though right? Is that safe to do with the buck out there though? They are my only 2 goats so it is hard to separate them for feeding even if I just close her away from him she cries for him. I guess they would probably get over it & eat after a few minutes though....but still the whole creep feed thing would be next to impossible....if that is in actuality free choice....


No need to apologize for being a newbie...but...

I didn't realize you were feeding that to a buck.  How old are they?  That is definitely not a good diet for a buck...and she's going to get bred (I'm guessing that was your intention, though).

A sudden _exclusion_ of feeds isn't generally a problem.  You would want to increase the goat pellets slowly.

The other trouble is Noble Goat in GA does NOT contain AC, I don't think Dumor does.  And burmuda hay is LOW in calcium...and sweet feeds increase the risk of UC.  Don't panic, but find yourself some Fruit Fresh or Acid Packs and treat that boy with them.  

If you click the goat info link on my siggy, it will take you to my husband's website, where you'll find a page about preventing UC, and another page about feeding ("the roughage and the regulator").


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## that's*satyrical (Oct 1, 2011)

Actually the Dumor Goat DOES contain AC (unless it is labeled wrong which I'm guessing is illegal), the Noble Goat I have DOES as well. Also the manna pro goat mineral contains AC, so he is in fact getting a decent amount of that. It is listed in the top half of the ingredients so I'm guessing they put a decent amount of it in there. I do know that bucks aren't supposed to get a ton of grain so that is why I was trying to transition more to the alfalfa pellets. The manna pro is just added to give them a nutritional boost since I am trying to get them to gain (same as the BOSS) The only thing I don't like about the Noble Goat is I didn't realize it is medicated. I am not big on medicated feed I would rather just medicate if there is a problem. We just wormed them today (ivermectin) so that should help. The place where they were staying had switched over to safeguard only which I have read is not very effective due to resistance from over use. I really don't think they have a huge problem with worms since their pellets are firm but easy to pass, and they seem healthy & happy besides being a tad on the thin side, but you never know. I'm going to give the ivermectin a little time to work & then try to get fecals. I really would like to find a nice, high quality, goat feed that is not medicated for them. I don't mind using it short term if it will help a problem. No offense, your goats look wonderful on it. I just don't want to be a contributing factor to any sort of resistance. I will definitely check out your site though because I want to learn everything possible before making clear decisions on what I would like to do to care for my herd. Food is one of the greatest contributing factors to good health. I also give them just a splash of vinegar in the water. If the acidity in cranberry juice helps prevent uti's in women, it can't hurt & I figure might possibly help to throw it in there for the goats. Also you asked their age they are both 2 1/2 years old.


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## that's*satyrical (Oct 1, 2011)

Ooohh. He mentions the ADM feed. That reminds me someone shared a great link on locations that carry that. I am going to go back & find that.


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## helmstead (Oct 1, 2011)

You need to do more research on Deccox and Rumensin before you make your decision on feeds containing them, and understand that it's not the amount that kills bucks but rather the feed itself (if you're feeding the _right_ feed and hay, you can feed it all day).

Adding ACV isn't doing any good.  If it makes you FEEL better, don't worry, it's not doing any HARM either.

Non medicated goat feeds are pretty much ONLY made for milkers.  IE does.  They will kill bucks, because they won't contain AC.

Lastly, if you were MIXING sweet feed, BOSS, alfalfa pellets, calf manna IN with the Dumor...he maybe ate 1/4 of the AC he was supposed to.  Don't rely on minerals, and don't discount the harm grass hay will do to your ratios.  Seriously, you need to go read those pages...before you have a dead buck.

And an aside - find a wether companion for the buck, and a doe companion for the doe.  You're going to need to separate them eventually.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.  Good luck.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 1, 2011)

A heavy worm load isn't necessarily going to affect their poop- scouring is a big red flag, no doubt.  But lack of scouring (well formed pellets) does not ever rule out heavy burdens.  

And keep in mind, AC in the buck's diet isn't going to completely counteract an upside down Ca ratio.  If he were here, I'd stop feeding any grain at all until he's worked up to the appropriate amount of alfalfa pellets- then start working him back onto the grain if he needs it.  I'd rather have a goat gain weight gradually on a balanced diet than try to bulk them up quickly with unbalanced ratios.

Your ration shouldn't be evenly mixed when it comes to grain and alfalfa.  Here we feed at least a 3:1 ratio (typically it's much higher than that, but that's our minimum).  That means at least 3 parts alfalfa to 1 part grain.  You're on the right track by fixing your ratios- sounds like you know they are getting way to much grain/not enough alfalfa proportionately.  But I agree with Kate that I would drop the grain immediately to balance your ratios.  Excluding it will not hurt them- but upping your alfalfa to that level overnight isn't a good idea.  If you drop your grain to the appropriate balance level you can then start gradually upping the balanced mix and prevent rumen upset.  That much phosphorous fed to an open doe is unhealthy- fed a a buck (or your gestating/lactating does) it can be disastrous!

You're going to be amazed with the results you see on an alfalfa rich diet even without large amounts of grain.  Adjust the grain as necessary- but that alfalfa is your foundation, not a supplement.


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