# LGD for a newbie



## Craig MacDonald (Sep 11, 2016)

New to this thread and new to goats, with two Boer bottle babies coming in Nov. or Dec.for  that will be meat. If all goes well this time around we'll probably get one or two breeding does and raise our own kids in the future. I've got the pen built @ 75'x45', and the shelter will be built next week. 

Many have recommended a LGD. I've located two male puppies in Roseburg (we're west of Eugene, OR) that are Pyreneese/Maremma, now eight weeks old. Rehoming fee seems very reasonable @ $350. 

Questions: do you agree we should have a LGD, even with an enclosed and wired pen? Is it good to get a puppy that grows up with the goats? Should it be restricted to the pen, or part LGD and part family pet? 
Any other words of wisdom?

BTW, we lost a hen to a hawk a few weeks back, so they're no longer let out of their pen w/wire mesh over the top. I'd love to be able to let them out again, but to protect them a LGD would have to be out of the goat pen. Hmmm.

thanks!


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## Latestarter (Sep 12, 2016)

There's some pretty extensive information on the boards under Herds General: Livestock Guardians. I only got my first LGD ~18 months ago, and don't even have the goats for him to guard yet. however, that being said, In short, most who own an LGD would say everyone with livestock should have one or preferably 2 as they work best as a team. While brothers or sisters can work well together, it can cause some problems/issues. And a brother/sister pair, you'd then have to worry about the female in heat and breeding. With only 2 goats and such a small space, one dog would be adequate to start, then you could add another later when your herd has grown. LGD's should bond with the animals they are protecting, and should live with them. But they should ALSO bond with the family and spend some time with you folks as well. There should be no reason not to bring the LGD up to the house for a visit and a treat. A true LGD will most likely love it but not want to stay, they'll WANT to be back with their charges. An LGD is NOT normally a family "pet"... People who try to make them one are one of the main reasons there are so many Great Pyrenees (among others) rescue organizations. They are a working dog and they need a job. 

Really, you should visit the threads and get a much better/more detailed explanation. I can't wait to get my sheep and goats and another LGD partner for mine.


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## babsbag (Sep 12, 2016)

I have 2.5 LGDs (one pup) and I wouldn't be without them ever again. My first two were amazing easy going, mellow puppies that never thought about chasing or playing with the goats and never talked back to me. My new puppy, not quite the same; she has been a handful since the start, but she is learning. 

Some people say that the puppies aren't fully safe with livestock until 18 months or more and I would say that that shouldn't be the case. A good puppy should have all this 'no playing with the goats' figured out long before 18 months, but they are puppies and they do want to play. While I don't usually suggest litter mates, having two pups at the same time can be a big advantage when it comes to play time. There are many litter mates raised together and they do fine, but there can be a few little quirks to that. I really like male female teams just so the chance of fighting is lessened and I usually suggest that to newbie owners. 

These dogs are different than any you have ever owned. They are independent and head strong and often just do as they see best. They are working dogs and they have to think on their own, and they do. We always say that for an LGD "come is a suggestion".  But they are fiercely loyal to your animals and to their humans. They can certainly be a family pet, but one that stays with the goats. They will be happy to see you and come for that belly rub and pat on the head but they shouldn't whine and bark when you leave. 

When you are looking at puppies you want to find one that is on a working farm where its' dam is actually working. You also want to make sure that the pup has been socialized. Some breeders raise these dogs completely hands off and I strongly suggest that you get a pup from a breeder that interacts with the dogs daily. 

You can't just toss a puppy into the field and expect them to behave like grown LGDs. They need to learn and be taught, sometimes they will chase the stock and you need to be there to correct them. I don't suggest puppies with baby goats, these are big pups and it is nice when the goats are bigger than the puppy so if there is any chase/play going on the goat can correct the pup and teach it its' place. Not all goats will help you out like that but some do.  Also a really young goat can get injured by the rough play so another reason to have older goats with a pup. Some people do raise them together and it just really depends on the dog. My first ones were about 6 months old when they were with kids for the first time and they were fine. My new puppy is 8 months old and I have some 4 month old goats that I don't trust her with. 

The chickens can be a steep learning curve. My adult dogs do ok with them now, but it took almost 18 months for my male to stop harassing them and killing them in play. I have lost 5 to my puppy.   The dogs can certainly be chicken safe but it often comes with maturity. If the chicken pen is near the goat pen that will help with the acclimation. Chickens are just the ultimate squeaky toy. 

Coyotes can and will go over a 4' fence with no problem and they are getting bolder all of the time. I see them in the daytime around here and they are currently stealing chickens and ducks during the day. My dogs don't have access to the chickens right now because of the puppy.  Coyotes will take young goats and be gone before you know it. Obviously, if you have a totally closed in barn for them at night they would be safe.  Until you get a dog I would get a hot wire. Top of fence and bottom of fence, and make it HOT; 1 joule or more. I have a back pasture that is only open during the day and I did not have a hot wire on the top as I have the dogs. Well the coyotes were coming over the fence at night and that is just a little too close so I put up a hot wire...no more coyotes over that fence.

And last but not least, some of these dogs bark...a lot. Again, it will depend on the dog. My current pair are quiet unless there is a threat but a male I used to have barked at the stars, the wind, the leaves, the moon, the sun...you get the picture.  Sometimes they will take some training in that area too, you may have to go out repeatedly at night at see what they are barking at and reassure them that there is no real threat.  And when there is a threat they will bark and if the field is close to you or a neighbor you might want to consider that too.  

They are wonderful and amazing dogs and I never knew how much I needed one until I got them. I am home alone all week so they are my protector too when I am out in the barn. 

There is a lot of information on BYH on LGDs. You are smart to research them before jumping in. They really are unique dogs so if you do some reading and still have questions don't hesitate to ask. @Southern by choice is our "resident" dog trainer and she is well versed in the ways of dogs and LGDs and there are many many other owners with experience as well.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Sep 14, 2016)

Be careful about getting an LGD puppy too soon. We knew we would need one or two and bought one the month we bought our property. It took about 2 months to get goats etc set up. We knew they took a while to mature and be good protectors but it somewhat backfired on us. We had a lot of bad habits to undo and a slightly steeper learning curve for them. Nearly everything worked out well for us because of all the research and questions I asked. However, if I could go back then I would wait until my goats were well settled before purchasing pups. Also, I purchased adult does in milk, it took a bit to teach them manners with kids and chickens, it was easier with the adults.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 14, 2016)

Craig MacDonald said:


> Questions: do you agree we should have a LGD, even with an enclosed and wired pen? Is it good to get a puppy that grows up with the goats? Should it be restricted to the pen, or part LGD and part family pet?
> Any other words of wisdom?



You have to really decide if you want a 
LGD-
Farm Dog-
Pet-

These are very distinct roles. 


Craig MacDonald said:


> 75'x45', and the shelter will be built next week.



Your pen will not support 2 pups and goat kids.
Best to have adult goats preferably those that have been raised with LGD's. 
Pups, young pups may see baby goats like another puppy.

If you have the time to really supervise and a way to separate the pups and kids when you can't supervise then I would not do this just yet. 

I don't have alot of time to expand but Babsbag summed up a good bit.

My last 3 litters were all raised with baby goats from the start but they also had older stock, momma goats, and ME  
We have had 8 month old dogs clean off neborn goats out in the  field... 5 month olds full time and severa of our pups went off to new homes with the baby goats they were raised with at the age of 4-5 months and were never separated and never any issues. Much depends on the breeder,  the stock, the dog , and you.
I do agree 2 pups are best as they have each other... I can share more if you like later.


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## DutchBunny03 (Sep 26, 2016)

A LGD can be sort of a pet, but not as much of a pet as, well, a pet. They should have adequate outdoor shelter close to the livestock the are guarding. They should be socialized to the animals and the owners. Of course, a pet dog can, and will, protect livestock. My dog has chased away bears and who knows what else from my rabbit herd. But if you want a complete guardian dog, it needs to not have as strong of a relationship with humans, and a strong relationship with your goats.


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## Denna (Sep 29, 2016)

So I have a pet/working LGD.  Turns out I am part of the herd she is guarding.  She is also very concerned with who drives by on the road.  Since my stock animals are secured in a barn at night, she sleeps in the house with me.  She is only semi-nocturnal now and "patrols" the house at night and the fields during the day.  My issue is that she barks at strange cars on the road.  Which on my small country gravel road (only 5 farms in a 3 mile road) is usually fine.  But now we have a "marijuana" farmer down the road and the road traffic is getting ridiculous and fast. My farm has 1/4 mile of pasture fence bordering the road. So now my girl barks a lot more during the day.  This is driving my neighbor nuts.  He complains and has called animal control 2x.  I have tried to explain this to hm to no avail.  He just wants her to be completely silent and has told me to get a shock collar to shut her up.  His dogs are on shock collars and silent.  I tried the Sheriff but this is a public road. I tried talking to the pot farmer but he basically said "go to *^%$ it is a public road". Keeping her in the house all day seems mean and counterproductive.  Any ideas?


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## NH homesteader (Sep 29, 2016)

So...  Do you live somewhere that this is a legal enterprise? You can't just call the cops on the guy? 

I don't know where you are but where I am,  animal control doesn't exist but in the towns near me where it does,  they would tell your neighbor to get over it.  My neighbor's dogs bark ALL DAY Long most days and there isn't a thing I can do about it.  I ignore it,  and they ignore the bleating goats  and other strange noises from my house! 

I guess short of moving your fence so she can't see all the cars there isn't much you can do to make your dog stop barking.


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## babsbag (Sep 29, 2016)

DutchBunny03 said:


> But if you want a complete guardian dog, it needs to not have as strong of a relationship with humans, and a strong relationship with your goats.



I disagree. My LGDs have a very strong relationship with me, they just don't cry and whine to leave the field. But they would protect me with their lives and they trust me, and me them. These are big dogs, I tell everyone to bond with these dogs, earn their trust, know them, spend time with them. The day will come that they need nails trimmed, groomed, and a trip to the vet and it is best that they let you do these things in a friendly happy manner. 

Too many people are told to keep their hands off of their LGDs and to just let them do their job. That might work great on 100s of acres where you never see the dog, but not a good suggestion for the family farm LGD. These dogs want to please, and they want to be loved on, and they love belly rubs and head scratches just as much as the dogs that sleep by my bed. I wouldn't have it any other way.


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## babsbag (Sep 29, 2016)

@Denna I wish I had a really good suggestion for you but I don't but this is what I would do.  First I am sorry you have a new "farmer" in the neighborhood. I would start with finding out if the pot grower is legal. Even in CA where it can be grown they have to be zoned for it and that usually means that they can't cause any more traffic just the same as I can't with my home based business. That would be the first thing I would do. 

Second I would talk to animal control and tell them about the new problem and see if you are required to shut up a barking dog during the day. And if you aren't then I would tell your neighbor to live with it. This isn't  just any dog, and a bark collar may work, but you want the dog to bark at threats. You are in a tough situation. My dogs bark at my neighbors coming and going and that is just the way it is. 

Good luck, it is a tough place to be in.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 29, 2016)

@Denna  Everything that @babsbag  said. Generally the noise ordinance applies to certain hours and a certain decibel.
Just like construction workers can work all day and be noisy they do have times they may operate in certain areas. Your dog is in at night so this shouldn't be an issue.

Your neighbor may be thankful in the end... all that traffic and for the product... um you really don't know what kind of element is lurking around.



DutchBunny03 said:


> But if you want a complete guardian dog, it needs to not have as strong of a relationship with humans, and a strong relationship with your goats.





babsbag said:


> I disagree. My LGDs have a very strong relationship with me, they just don't cry and whine to leave the field.



I agree with Babs.

Looking at the individual dog is what is most important. A needy LGD that is super bonded with by it's humans may be too needy and not do well in staying with livestock.

Stable solid LGD's that are not needy will bond strongly with both and there will be no conflict of interest.

Relationship with a LGD is more about respect and partnering. They are partners. Understand that and respect that and you will have a great LGD. Loyal on both fronts.


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 29, 2016)

The first thing I thought was I've never heard of a dog barking the day being considered a nuisance.
What did Animal Control tell you when the neighbor called them ?


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## DutchBunny03 (Sep 29, 2016)

I did not mean "hands off". I meant more of a partnership relation, as Southern by Choice described. A full time LGD should be trained to protect the herd, not wander off or follow the owner around, even though the dog may love his owner dearly.


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## Denna (Sep 29, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> So...  Do you live somewhere that this is a legal enterprise? You can't just call the cops on the guy?
> 
> I don't know where you are but where I am,  animal control doesn't exist but in the towns near me where it does,  they would tell your neighbor to get over it.  My neighbor's dogs bark ALL DAY Long most days and there isn't a thing I can do about it.  I ignore it,  and they ignore the bleating goats  and other strange noises from my house!
> 
> I guess short of moving your fence so she can't see all the cars there isn't much you can do to make your dog stop barking.







Yes, it is legal in Oregon.  I have received 2 letters from animal control.  I called and reminded them I live in an Exclusive Farm Use area and my dogs are guarding herd stock.  The lady did not sound too concerned and just noted my call.  All property owners have to sign a notice stating EFU terms and conditions that includes sights, sounds and smells of the farming industry.  This neighbor has put his house up for sale but is having a real hard time selling it.

I thought of putting up material on the fence so she could not see the cars, but that would be useless, because she could still hear them.


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## Denna (Sep 29, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @Denna I wish I had a really good suggestion for you but I don't but this is what I would do.  First I am sorry you have a new "farmer" in the neighborhood. I would start with finding out if the pot grower is legal. Even in CA where it can be grown they have to be zoned for it and that usually means that they can't cause any more traffic just the same as I can't with my home based business. That would be the first thing I would do.
> 
> Second I would talk to animal control and tell them about the new problem and see if you are required to shut up a barking dog during the day. And if you aren't then I would tell your neighbor to live with it. This isn't  just any dog, and a bark collar may work, but you want the dog to bark at threats. You are in a tough situation. My dogs bark at my neighbors coming and going and that is just the way it is.
> 
> Good luck, it is a tough place to be in.




We are in an Exclusive Farm Use area and Oregon considers it a crop.  So they are legal.  I can call for speeders and the Sheriff just takes a report.  I went to city hall and the farm does have a permit.  The nice clerk said that they should harvest in the next 3 weeks and then they will shut down until next May.  They are an open grow site (no greenhouse) so they can not grow in the winter.  One consolation is that all the Sheriff calls for speeding and heavy traffic is filed against their permit request for next year.  So maybe they will not get a permit or maybe they will and behave better.  Either way, hurray!

Animal control was may more concerned if my dogs were running loose and biting people.  I am unclear if I need to be too concerned about a barking dog during the day.  No one has ever complained about her barking at night.  I also noticed, that the dates and times of the complaints are when I was not at home.  When I am home, I go out and check and reassure her that everything is okay.  

It is a tough time.  Only one neighbor complains. All the surrounding farms have dogs and herd stock (even the grumpy neighbor) but mine have the biggest and loudest voices, so the complaints fall on me.  All this energy and stress for a single neighbor who hates the sound of a dog's bark.  Bleh!


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## babsbag (Sep 29, 2016)

Every county in OR has their own laws regarding how and where it can be grown, same as CA. But I would really check the ordinances for your county; I know Jackson county won't allow it to be grown on rural residential land without a special permit. I got a wake up from the Sheriff's office a few weeks ago when they were at my house to bust my neighbor. The officer had the address wrong on his map 

 So that got me curious about the laws for cultivation and I learned a lot about what can't be done and there are a lot of people breaking the law.

Well forget what I just wrote. I see that you did your homework.


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## DutchBunny03 (Sep 29, 2016)

You may be able to come to a compromise with your grumpy neighbor. We had a grumpy neighbor where I lived. They complained that my dog was wandering into their yard, so we tied him to a line. They then complained about the barking, cause he barked like CRAZY on the line. The neighbors decided they would rather let him wander on their property than hear the barking. Maybe if you tried to get your dog to stop but your dog did something he hated even more, he would tolerate the barking. But, then again, maybe not. Some people don't understand that a barking LGD is just doing its job, not trying to be a  nuicence. Well, enough with my ranting. Good luck with your grumpy neighbor!!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Sep 30, 2016)

Just keep reporting the speeding and hopefully the other farm will move locations.


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