# I took the nest box out of my doe's cage 2 days ago, so of course!



## mama24 (Apr 20, 2012)

She has 6 babies on the wire today!  She's young, this is her first litter, my first time with breeding rabbits! I was so sure she wasn't even pregnant! I could also kill my 2 oldest boys! They are 12 and 8. I sent them out around 4:30 to make sure the rabbits had water, which they did. So when I went out at 6, I wasn't expecting to find babies! I only went out to collect eggs and feed my goats! My white goat had a spot of blood on her back. I was very confused wondering where she could have gotten it! Then I thought to check the rabbits b/c my goats can walk under their cages since we moved them out of the barn for the summer. There were 2 live babies in the cage, fur everywhere, and 4 babies on the ground, 2 were dead, obviously 1 was stepped on by a goat, and the other looked like the chickens had been at it. Poor poor things!!! I was so upset! I can't even figure out how they ended up on the ground since I have 1/2" hardware cloth on the bottoms of both of my does' cages! The 4 that were still alive were very very cold. I stuck them in my shirt while I checked around for more. My dh came to see what I was doing since i had left dinner cooking on the stove and hadn't come back. He went and got a hot water bottle, refilled the nest box with hay, and warmed it up with the hot water bottle while I warmed the babies up under my brooder lamp in the chick pen. Mama bunny was extremely agitated, but after I put the warmed babies into the nest box that dh had put back in her cage with the water bottle, she went into it, sniffed at them, then hopped out and started eating pretty contently, so I think, amazingly, she is actually going to be a decent first time mom. All of the babies, even the dead ones, were cleaned off very well and their cords were very very short, so she had obviously done a great job after the were first born, she just unfortunately didn't have a box in her cage! I could kick myself!

The reason I could kill my boys is b/c they never said a word to me about the pulled fur that they saw all over her cage when they filled her water. And they also saw something that looked like a "dead baby something" that the chickens were carrying around.  OK, we live on a 42 acre farm, I know they see dead things more often than most kids, but really, in our animal pens, that is definitely something to mention to me!!! So all that means she started kindling somewhere around 4:30 and I didn't get the babies until after 6. I'm glad we were able to save the 4. The 2 on the ground looked ok. One might be badly bruised, but I couldn't tell if it was bruised or its skin looked purple just from getting so cold! I really hope they make it! Is there anything else I should do or look for?


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## mama24 (Apr 20, 2012)

Btw, I actually have separate areas from my animals, but I have about 6 hens and 2 bantam roosters that cannot be contained by any fence that absolutely love to be with my goats for some reason. They are houdinis! LOL. But I do keep the goats and rabbits pretty much together. The goats sometimes try to get into the rabbit feed, but otherwise it seems to work out pretty well.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 20, 2012)

The same thing happened to me!!! Also first time mom. Only 2 kits though Both ended up outside the cage one was alive but died the day after the next day even though we tried to save it


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## DianeS (Apr 20, 2012)

Sounds like you did a good job to me, now it's all up to the mom and whether she feeds them. I hope you put the fur in the nestbox, too? I don't remember seeing that in your post. 

As for how the kits got out, kits can crawl - sometimes very far distances. They can fit through any opening that their head can go through - and their heads are as small as a mouse's. I've found kits upwards of 4 feet away from mom's cage before. If you have the supplies to do it, you can run some of that 1/2 inch hardware cloth about 4 inches up the sides of mom's cage, it will reduce (but not eliminate) kits crawling away.


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## mama24 (Apr 21, 2012)

Aaaaand, she peed on them! So all but one were cold and dead this morning.  I have the last one in a sheepskin lined box in the house, but it probably won't make it. She attacks me every time I open her cage, and that started well over a month ago, so before she was even pregnant, so I think she is going to be culled as well. I checked her over, and she does not feel like she's even making milk. I guess it's less than 24 hours after her first litter was born, so she may start lactating soon. I'll take the baby to her this evening and see how it goes, but I am not very hopeful. I have a friend I see every week at the farmer's market. I buy most of our meat from him, mostly chicken and rabbit, goat or lamb when he has it, he is who I bought my goats from. He told me to cull her if she's that mean, I can easily find a tamer doe, and probably one that won't pee on her babies and freeze them, though he did say first time moms often do some really stupid things like that!


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## PinkFox (Apr 21, 2012)

unfortunatly it seems to be a case of more often than not that a first timer will loose the entire litter for whatever reason.
infact form what im reading its actually unusual for first time mommas to do that well sodont take it too hard.

personaly i would give her one last try before calling her a dud and culling.  females can be very hormonal in general especially as there just maturing and ive personally known wild girls settle down after a litter or 2, so ifshes otherwise a good example of what your trying to breed for, id give her one mroe go.  if this baby makes it and she starts feeding youll have to wait on weaning but if not you cna breed her back pretyt muhc imediatly.
generally if they loose the second litter or continue to be realy mean after weaning a second litter i say g'bye.  theres more than enough nice does in the world, and because of my set up and how hands on i am with my little herd its just not worth the agro.


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## terri9630 (Apr 21, 2012)

It's quite possible that the doe hadn't had the kits or pulled hair when your boys were out there.  I had one last weekend that delivered when I went inside for lunch.  30 minutes tops.  Came out and had 9 kits and hair every where.  I had been working on the misters and was right there and checked on her so I know they weren't there before.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 21, 2012)

Mama24;
DON'T cull her.

I had the very same thing happen. Didn't think she was preggers and on day 35 she had 8 babies all over the bottom of the cage and out of the cage on the floor. I had taken the nest box out.  I talked to the man I got her from and he said the Silver Martens go 35 days and some longer and they will NOT accept a nest box if they don't make the nest. You might not have this breed but maybe she is like mine. The day before Easter she had another litter. Some made it (4) and some didn't (6).  She was also aggressive and would attach me or the cage door. After she lost all her babies she switched back to her nice self and would let me hold her and talk to her and I had never been able to do that before. I keep telling her I was sorry for taking the box out and her loosing all her babies.     When I bred her this time she got aggressive again. She is only trying to protect her babies even if they are unborn. They are a week old today and out of the box most of the time and she will let me pet her AND her babies .  Some mothers are just more protective.    The other doe I have had two babies and she could care less if I touch them as long as I pet her first.         GIVE her another try.  She just might fool you.   Remember, leave the box in for at least 35 days just to be sure.     Good luck.


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## DianeS (Apr 21, 2012)

I would not cull for a first litter death either. But if she does it again, I would then for sure. You can re-breed her immediately, today even, so you will know in a month whether she'll become a decent mama.

I would, however, cull for her behavior that you describe, if you are certain it is not pregnancy-related. 

For how to handle a doe that's being mean, I find cheap oven mitts to be enough protection. 

Hang in there - first time litters are almost always a headache. If you choose to get past this one, then you'll see what her real mamma abilities are (or if she has any to begin with).


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## mama24 (Apr 22, 2012)

I definitely wouldn't cull her for doing a poor job with her first litter! I actually think she did a decent job considering I was dumb and took her nest box away too soon. The reason I am thinking about culling her is b/c of how she attacks me! I have scars and scratches up and down both of my forearms from her, plus a few on my belly! She's evil! She bit me as well as scratching yesterday. She rolls back onto her back to kick at me every time I reach for her. But after hearing that sometimes they calm down, I think I'll give her another try and see if she calms down. I am breeding for meat. My does are NZW and my buck is a CA. The does are sisters from the same litter, and only 1 is evil. I was very surprised at the way she's acting b/c I met both of her parents and her siblings when I got my 2 does. The dad and babies were hopping around in a little fenced in area in a backyard with some chickens. I traded a POL pullet for one doe and bought the other. The dad was friendly. The mom was kept in a shed b/c she digs, but she was quite calm and friendly as well.

Thanks so much for your thoughts and advice!


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## Mitransplant (Apr 22, 2012)

I was seriously thinking about culling Daisy but she was so sweet after all her babies died and then after I bred her again she got mean. I left her alone except for opening the door to feed her. She stayed mean till after the babies were born this time as well but is now sweet and wants to be petted again. It is only when she has been bred that she is mean......just trying to protect her young.  Sorry, yours does sound evil though.  Hope she gets better.    Got to go and check on the goats again. Java just had her baby this morning.


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## mama24 (Apr 22, 2012)

YAY!!! Goat babies are just the cutest things ever!!! I need to get dressed and go check on my animals. I'm moving very slowly today. Went to a wedding yesterday and am feeling slightly hung over.


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## Mitransplant (Apr 22, 2012)

That's not good for the animals.  Don't forget to check out Java's thread, short as it is.   One was good but I don't think I will be keeping him since I don't want him trying to breed with his mother later on.    Wonder if I can advertize to sell or trade for a GIRL. LOL


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## mama24 (Apr 22, 2012)

Last baby was out of the box and dead on the wire.  I'm not surprised at all. I put her back in with my buck. She was pretty calm when I picked her up. She spazzed a little, but let me hold and pet her a little.  Hopefully she'll do better next time. And hopefully she will stop being so evil!


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## montverdechick (Apr 29, 2012)

You want to wait at least a week to rebreed her. She needs time to recover for her last litter.

I also had the same thing happen. Pulled the box when she ws 4 days over due. Had the babies a day later on the wire. Only difference is thst she ate most of them. We rebred her and she is due again on the 14th. If she eats them again we will cull her.


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## justin (May 2, 2012)

Same thing happend to me this year as well, also a first time mom. And I also was baffeled that all but one got out of the pen, I have the very very tiny wire on bottom that's made for keeping baby's in if they hop out of the nest box. My does had them over a week after she was due and never pulled hair or did anything with her straw. The one that was still in her pen I thought she had eaten the legs off but when I looked closer I could see the outline of them under the skin like they where not fully developed even though they where born late.


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## terri9630 (May 6, 2012)

justin said:
			
		

> Same thing happend to me this year as well, also a first time mom. And I also was baffeled that all but one got out of the pen, I have the very very tiny wire on bottom that's made for keeping baby's in if they hop out of the nest box. My does had them over a week after she was due and never pulled hair or did anything with her straw. The one that was still in her pen I thought she had eaten the legs off but when I looked closer I could see the outline of them under the skin like they where not fully developed even though they where born late.


Do you have the baby saver wire on the sides of the cage?  If not that is probably how they got out.


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## mama24 (May 7, 2012)

We just got back from the beach last night (had a friend feeding, watering, and milking while we were gone.) I had marked on my calendar to put the nest box in last night for my other doe, but I didn't look at the calendar at all and completely forgot. My dh saw my doe (not the same one in the OP, my other doe, her sister) who is due on Weds carrying hay around the cage and trying to build a nest in the corner on the wire, so he put the box in this morning and filled it with hay. I was out there feeding and milking a little while ago, and checked on her. No babies yet, but she made a very nice nest with TONS of pulled fur.  I hope she'll be a better first time mom than her sister was!


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## mama24 (May 7, 2012)

btw, I do have baby saver wire 2-3 inches up the sides of the cage. 1/2"x1/2" hardware cloth. I still had kits on the ground. They must have climbed.


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## RPC (May 7, 2012)

Good luck with this litter I hope all goes as planned.


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## mama24 (May 10, 2012)

Still no babies, but she now has a huge pile of fur in the back of the nesting box. She made a nice little round nest with hay and then filled that round depression with fur! She was due on Weds. I'm surprised she hasn't had them yet. But I think her sister was 3 days over the recommended time, so I guess I should start planning that 31 days is their norm rather than 28 like "the books" say. They are big New Zealand whites, so I guess I should have assumed they'd go longer anyway.


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## terri9630 (May 10, 2012)

28 days is the minimum.  With most of my NZW's I have found that it is about 32 days but I have one that goes 35 days.


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## lovinglife (May 11, 2012)

I had a doe due, had my husband go check on her a couple times, nope nothing, so I go out there, what do I find?  A tiny bit of hair on the wire and a bit of hair in the nest box, covering of course a perfect litter.  Husband didn't stick his hand in the cage and feel for the babies, he couldn't see any so he didn't think there were any... Surprise!


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## mama24 (May 24, 2012)

My other doe had 10 babies last week! 1 was dead when I found them, the other 9 were fine, all were tucked safely into a HUGE pile of fur in the nesting box. I removed the dead one and checked over the others. 7 were born big and chubby, 2 were small and skinny. A week later, they are all growing very well. The 2 smaller ones are still quite a bit smaller, but are growing and have fat little milk tummies now! I'm so proud of this first time mama! Her kits were born on day 28, I had written down the wrong dates completely! She growled at me the first few days, but she is getting friendlier now. Probably b/c I try to bring her a treat when I go down to check the babies. I was taking them out every day, but I have cut back to every 2 days. Might get back to every day just to make sure they're used to being handled a lot.

My other mama, the one that accidentally killed her first litter, is busy today building a nice nest of fur in her nesting box. Today is day 29, and I think today is the day. Uh oh! My ds just came in and said there are 2 cold ones on the wire!!!  I'm going to run down and see what's what. If she kills them again this time, I'm culling her. She's nasty and I have scars on my arms from her scratching me, so she's been walking a fine line anyway! I just can't get over how totally different these 2 littermate sisters are! I was just there an hour ago and there were no babies, so hopefully I can save them! It can't have been very long since they were born!


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## DianeS (May 24, 2012)

Sometimes it's all about timing! I have 9 kits in the nestbox right now that are thriving, all because I found them before they got too cold. If I had not gone outside when I did, they would have passed away. (Mom pulled fur, but kits were born on the wire, and fell through underneath.) Glad your boy saw those two, and I hope you're in time!


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## mama24 (May 25, 2012)

She only had 4. There was something wrong with one of them. It was covered in blood, and when I tried to warm it up, it just oozed blood from its umbilicus, nose and mouth. Very strange.  But the other 3 made it. My son had put the live one of the 2 that were cold on the wire into the nesting box under the pulled fur before he came to get me and it was already warm and snuggled with the other 2 by the time I got down there. (He's almost 13 and is a very sweet, intelligent boy if I may say so! Infuriating sometimes but overall a great kid.) It must have just been a little chilled, not actually cold like the dead one was. I just checked on them about an hour ago, and all 3 have fat little milk bellies!  So it looks like she's doing her job this time. She growled at me a little, but she didn't try to attack like she used to. So maybe it was just a phase. Both does are pretty young, maybe 7 mos old or so. So maybe she was just having teenage hormones or something. lol. My other doe that had 9 surviving babies only has 7 now. She still had 9 3 days ago, but only had 7 yesterday. I guess she decided the runts were too runty and got rid of them.  But the other 7 are huge and growing well, so she's doing a great job, especially considering it was her first litter! Their eyes look like they're starting to open. They are 10 days old today, so I guess that's right on schedule. I can't believe how fast they grow and grow fur! Mama sure is eating for 8, though! She's now eating probably 4 times more pellets than the buck, and twice as many as her sister.


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## mama24 (May 30, 2012)

And she ate the ears off of one yesterday!!! This doe is so getting culled! I really don't get her at all! At least the 3 are still alive and growing well. She's obviously feeding them but she's still using the nest box as a litterbox and peeing on them daily. The only reason they aren't freezing again is b/c we're in NC with temps in the 80's lately! I'm planning on keeping a couple girls from my other doe's litter as replacement and this girl is getting culled as soon as her 3 babies are weaned! I just can't believe that these 2 littermate sisters are so totally different in their parenting skills! My other doe with the 7 babies is such a great mom. They're 2 weeks old and huge. They're hopping around and eating now and follow her around out of the box to nurse now.


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## DianeS (May 30, 2012)

Yeah, some does just don't get it. Sounds like you have a good plan.


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## mama24 (May 31, 2012)

2 were cold and dead last night covered in flies.  They were fine yesterday morning. Covered in pee. So much pee, the fur nest was completely soaked and matted down. One was cold but still alive, and completely yellow from the pee. I rinsed him off and stuck him in my other doe's nesting box. I doubt she'll accept him since he's a whole week younger than her own babies and they have open eyes and are hopping around now. But It was worth a try since he was going to die anyway. Stupid rabbit! I can't believe how terrible she is! Her sister is such a great mom, I just can't understand it. Oh well, we'll be having some hassenpfeffer this weekend!


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