# Sulmet? (Sulfamethazine Sodium)



## Chicos Mama (Sep 21, 2010)

Can you give Sulmet to goats for scours?
The label says for cattle and calfs,swine, turkeys, chickens and other fowl with scours...but nothing about goats for scours.
Its an Antibacterial drinking water solution.

My local feedstore does not carry Scour-Halt and she reccomended Sulmet...BUT added...she knows nothing about gaots
Chico is now on his 3rd day of the "runs"...stopped all grain, no temprature, and eating and drinking fine...Im confused.

His soup-butt smells VERY foul and is Very green.
Id rather ask than be sorry later about the Sulmet 
Please let me know...
Thanks!


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## ()relics (Sep 21, 2010)

All sulfa drugs are primarily for coccidiosis control.  If coccidiosis is not the problem causing your goat to scour then sulmet would not fix anything.  A shot in the dark?  Yeah coccia might be the cause and then a sulfa drug might solve the scouring problem...But it would only be a guess without a proper diagnosis.  Have you already tried Pepto?  Green scours doesn't sound like coccidiosis to me...But again that is just a guess....
        upon alittle more thinking you may want to see if you can lay your hands on some TMP/SMZ....Trimethoprim/Sulfaethoxazole...probably need a vets help but it is probably the best "shot in the dark" along with pepto


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## Chicos Mama (Sep 21, 2010)

O.K.  heres the latest on Chico...
 Still has scours...but its Brown now, not dark but not tan...just brown...not watery anymore but more like yogurt consistency (too discriptive?)
Still eating and drinking great.
I am giving him pepto 3x a day, pro-biotics 3x a day, and witholding grain (hes not a happy camper! )
Still no change in 3 days...So I bought some Sulmet and tried to give it to him in a water bottle...let me see if i can find an appropriate faces for that one!    now multiply that by 10...and you`ll get the visual of Chico!

So I did what any _"good goat mama"_ would do... I tasted it myself to see what all the drama was about... *I DONT RECOMMEND DOING THAT!!!*  
Soooo... I made a gob of phone calls and found a Vet out here who works with Large animals *AND* makes house calls!! 
Getting a full check-up on all 3 goats tommorrow. He said it sounds like he could have Coci, but  the other 2 goats are fine...so far. Test will let me know...I will keep everyone posted and Thank you all again for your wonderful advice!
*Especially ()Relics and cmjust0*


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## Roll farms (Sep 21, 2010)

When I have to give the goats sulfa-based meds, I use a drenching gun (they're less likely to spit it out / in your face) and give it to them straight, w/out mixing w/ anything....b/c when you do that, you're making a small bit of something that tastes AWFUL into a lot of something that still tastes awful.  

If I had my choice of 3 cc of strong ick or 5 oz of  weaker ick....I'd rather take the 3 cc...hope that made sense....

I've had particularly picky kids refuse a 20 oz bottle of milk that they LOVE b/c they tasted 3 cc of dimethox in it...

I read somewhere that it's more effective given straight so I've stopped trying to sneak it in their bottles, anyway.

And I know just how badly it tastes....I mix it from a powder and the powder sort of floats around when I dump it out....the dust settles on my face / lips and I'll lick them and make that same "icky taste face" you're describing....it really is awful stuff....worse than an aspirin melting on your tongue.


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2010)

I use Corid for cocci and just give it to them straight. It is such a small amount that the kids don't mind to much. I just use a syringe as that is all I have.

I hope your vet can shed some light on Chico. My buckling started to scour when I introduced grain, but cleared right up when I stopped the grain.

Also, one goat can get cocci and herd mates can be fine. Alot depends on age, the young are usually the hardest hit.


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## ()relics (Sep 22, 2010)

All goat have some level of _coccidia_ present in their systems, suffice it to say if one of your goats have coccidia they all do as it is Extremely contagious.
_Coccidiosis_  is the disease caused by the overpopulation of coccidia in a goats system.  Kids are Highly suseptable especially during times of stress, weaning.
  Coccidia levels can be monitored using fecal tests. If a dangerous level exsits a coccidiosis treatment is quick and to the point, the goat will be markedly better the second day of treatment.  Coccidiosis is a goat killer, kids especially, and should be treated aggressively.  
  CoRid is not the preferred treatment.  CoRid is a thiamine inhibitor, vitamin B1.  Since thiamine is an essential vitamin in goats.....well for fear of offending anyone suffice it to say... Most Producers have  swithched to  a sulfa based drug, sulfadimethoxine for example...Confirm this with your vet.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 22, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> When I have to give the goats sulfa-based meds, I use a drenching gun (they're less likely to spit it out / in your face) and give it to them straight, w/out mixing w/ anything....b/c when you do that, you're making a small bit of something that tastes AWFUL into a lot of something that still tastes awful.


Agreed x1000.  

There was a time when I was mixing 40% dimethox injectable with a really stout molasses/water mix and giving like 6ml of it..  (maybe 2ml of the med, 4ml of the molasses mix) and they STILL hacked and spit and gagged.

And, of course, in the process, they spit out a lot of what I'd just put down.

I don't do that anymore...now it goes down straight, squirted right on the back of their tongue.  There's not enough of it for them to spit out, so they just kinda freeze for a minute...stop breathing...sling their heads...hack...cough...then breathe and make little "eh eh ehehehehheh" noises, etc...then run to mama for a little warm sweetmilk to wash it down.  



FWIW, I too have tasted dimethox.  Had the teeniest bit on my thumb, touched the plunger end of a syringe with my thumb, then -- as I'm prone to do -- I stuck the plunger end of the syringe between my teeth to hold it as I was grabbing a goat.

Touched it with my tongue.

Really, really, REALLY gross.  I totally understand why they hack and cough and carry on.


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## Chicos Mama (Sep 22, 2010)

Quick update...

Vet Changed the appointment to Friday morning after he called to check on Chico this morning and I told him he now has "soft-green" pellets... *NO MORE SCOURS!!! *

I wonder if that dose of Sulmet is what stopped it?  Pepto/Pro-biotics combo with no grain?  Who knows...Either that or those Darn Vanilla wafers finally got out of his system?
Whatever it was Im Soooo Happy and so is his Hinney! 

Still having them all checked for the Cocci and a full run on anything else on Friday though...getting for winter to set in...I personally cant wait!
I will let you know how things turn out...Thanks again!

AND... *Roll Farms?  .... *come `er and let Chico give you a slimmey kiss!... Your the Best! 






Sunning themselves on THEIR blanket...I Told ya`ll they were Fat!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Relaxing on my front deck...Chico, Violet & My lil` Lamancha "Bob"


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> CoRid is not the preferred treatment.  CoRid is a thiamine inhibitor, vitamin B1.  Since thiamine is an essential vitamin in goats.....well for fear of offending anyone suffice it to say... Most Producers have  swithched to  a sulfa based drug, sulfadimethoxine for example...Confirm this with your vet.


I have not had to treat any of my goats for coccidia, knock on wood, only chickens.  But when I had a buckling scour after getting a little too much grain for the first time I did ask my vet and Corid was what she told me to have on hand if I needed to treat. I also know that at the goat show last May there were 2 or 3 producers giving preventative doses of Corid to kids. I will ask my group next time we meet why Corid and not Sulmet,  I am sure they will have an answer, be it right or wrong.

I did some looking around on the web after reading your post and it seems to be a mixed bag of opinions, and I have none. I tend to go with the idea that ANY med when over used has the potential to become dangerous and sometimes uesless. It seems that sulmet doesn't work in some areas and the Corid doesn't work in others. I am not sure about that as I didn't know that Cocci had built up a resistance to meds like worms have, but maybe they have. Heaven forbid.

Here is a quote from a person on another forum...just food for thought.
"Corid, depletes the cocci occysts ability to utilize thiamin in the goats system to move to adulthood...IT DOES NOT, unless overused cause thiamin/b1/polio in your goats. And anything, herbal wormers, chemical wormers, electrolytes, Fast Track, grain if given in enough amounts can destroy rumen flora and cause polio in your goat." 

On the flip side I read a few posts where people claim their kids have died from the Corid treatments. So with that in mind it makes you think again about what has been done in the past and what should be done in the future.

Since I have not had goats in their current pen and pasture for more than 2 years I think that I have been lucky with the coccidiosis, even though my chicks get it on a regular basis. However, I am thinking that the longer I have goats the more likely it is that I will have a problem. I hate using meds for prevention, but that maybe the route I have to take.


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## Roll farms (Sep 23, 2010)

I'm confused....forgive me....



			
				babsbag said:
			
		

> I use Corid for cocci and just give it to them straight. It is such a small amount that the kids don't mind to much. I just use a syringe as that is all I have.


Followed by:



			
				babsbag said:
			
		

> I have not had to treat any of my goats for coccidia, knock on wood, only chickens.  But when I had a buckling scour after getting a little too much grain for the first time I did ask my vet and Corid was what she told me to have on hand if I needed to treat.




My vet originally had me use corid to treat our kids...I did my own reading up later and decided to go w/ DiMethox instead.

Do what works for you, based on your own research....and if you have a suggestion for someone...fine...but I wouldn't post, "I use such and such" for a certain condition if you haven't actually used it w/ that species, for that illness.

"My vet suggested..." may have been a better thing to say....?


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 23, 2010)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't cocciostats more effective if used as a preventative rather than a treatment?


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## ()relics (Sep 23, 2010)

coccidiostats as in feed additives?  Yeah but they work differently at lower levels to prevent the coccidia from reproducing.  Coccidiostats given as a treatment for an exsisting "over-population" are given at a higher dose rate to Kill the organism...Its a fine line between what works and when...I think it is a per farm based decision.  Some can control it with feed additives only, some have to treat all kids to prevent the inevitable outbreak, and some have no problems at all.  Depends on the population, particular strain virulence, sanitary measures, management practices...lots of variables.  Ideally you keep the population below the "danger level" by any means you can but if an outbreak occurs in individual animals they have to be treated or risk losing them.  unless I am missing the point of your question.


let me add this link to an article:  these people are GOAT PROFESSIONALS not fly-by-night website profiteers, use the information as you see fit:
http://www.smallstock.info/reference/meat-goat/handbook/coccidia.html
some of these people will be REALLY familiar to some  "goat people" ...any of these readings are valuable..should be a pre-read for goat herders...JMO


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 23, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Ideally you keep the population below the "danger level" by any means you can but if an outbreak occurs in individual animals they have to be treated or risk losing them.  unless I am missing the point of your question.


Yes, it does answer my question.  This info quoted from the article is what I was driving at:

"Coccidiosis can be controlled most practically by limiting exposure to coccidia, by reducing stress on the animals, and by the use of a coccidiostat when exposure is imminent. The fact that most coccidiostats do not kill but interfere with the reproductive potential of coccidia allows enough antigenic stimulation of the immune system to increase resistance while the goat is protected by the drug. When the coccidiostat is removed from the diet, resistance to disease will be maintained as long as exposure to the coccidia continues...

To be most effective, coccidiostats should be give early in the coccidian lifecycle and before massive infections overwhelm the goat. Use of the drugs should begin prior to anticipated susceptible times." ("Management and Control of Goat Coccidia," A. David Scarfe)

Now that I've reread the thread I see that the discussion was about treatment anyway since the goat was already scouring.  Don't mind me, I should probably not post before my morning coffee...   I got stuck on this:



			
				babsbag said:
			
		

> I have not had to treat any of my goats for coccidia, knock on wood, only chickens.
> 
> Since I have not had goats in their current pen and pasture for more than 2 years I think that I have been lucky with the coccidiosis, even though my chicks get it on a regular basis. However, I am thinking that the longer I have goats the more likely it is that I will have a problem. I hate using meds for prevention, but that maybe the route I have to take.


And I started thinking, "better an ounce of prevention..." vs. waiting for symptoms to treat but that doesn't necessarily apply to the original post at this point.  Great article though, thanks!


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'm confused....forgive me....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry if my post was confusing. I started a treatment on the goat kid that was scouring and cut the grain at the same time. I was a bad goat owner and didn't finish the treatment as I hate drugs and I was watching him closely. The scours cleared up after one treatment and 2 days with no grain so I didn't really count that as a treatment since I only did it once. His scours were not really really bad so I felt I had some room to observe and try something other than drugs.

I did give some to kids at the show to help out a friend with quite a few goats and just to get some practive administering drugs. They took it really well, not hard at all IMO


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> And I started thinking, "better an ounce of prevention..." vs. waiting for symptoms to treat but that doesn't necessarily apply to the original post at this point.  Great article though, thanks!


My only concern with prevention, no matter what the drug, is that we breed a resistant beast that we can no longer fight. I don't know if coccidia can mutate, but that thought just lurks in the back of my mind. Something to look into before my next kidding season. Most all of my friends do preventative treatments with Corid.


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## Chicos Mama (Sep 28, 2010)

*CHICO UPDATE *(*With Pictures!*):

Final diagnosis (via: Fecal float..._*Coccidiosis*_)

On one hand Im relived... on the other...well, you know...nobody wants to have sick babies. 
He wants to treat all 3 goats even though Chico was the only positive test. Is Cocci contagious? And is that the right and aggresive approach in Ya`lls opinion?
Funny how I trust all of your opinions over my Vets...but you people really know your stuff! 

Vet says that explains the inter-mitten "mush-butt".
All other test came back great other than "slight" copper deficency, which is normal :/ for Arizona goats...but not enough to blous.

O.K....Define: _NORMAL_?

So I think ill look for a "supplement" for them. Any suggestion?

They already have a Sweet-Lix (meatmakers) block which they have a "take-it or Leave it" attitude with and their grain feed is a 16% mix... and are on Alfalpha hay.
The Vet wants me to switch them to a grass hay (lower in fat?) even though he said they were *NOT* over-weight (Although he did say Chico is "slightly" chubby)...
Im not sure why I need to switch hay and he gave no reason.  I have the attitude "if its not broken..."  any thoughts on why?

Anyways... I just wanted to Update everyone and Thank Everyone again and I will look for your responses and ideas!

Any input here guys?

Chico says "Thaaaankkksss"


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

Chicos Mama said:
			
		

> *CHICO UPDATE *(*With Pictures!*):
> 
> Final diagnosis (via: Fecal float..._*Coccidiosis*_)
> 
> ...


Contagious?...in a way, I guess.  Most all goats carry some coccidia in their guts, and it's usually not a problem.  I'd probably call it more _opportunistic_ than contagious.

I probably would NOT treat them all, but...meh...it wouldn't necessarily hurt anything, I guess.  Well, unless you count the expense and aggravation, both of which *should* be minimal.

Is your vet selling you the meds and/or administering the treatment, or did he just say "treat them all" and left it to you to actually do it?



> Funny how I trust all of your opinions over my Vets...but you people really know your stuff!






> Vet says that explains the inter-mitten "mush-butt".
> All other test came back great other than "slight" copper deficency, which is normal :/ for Arizona goats...but not enough to blous.


The only way to get an accurate copper level on a goat is through a liver biopsy, which he didn't do.  Blood levels don't mean much...a goat can have next to no copper in their blood while their liver is packed full of it.  

Conversely, I suppose it's possible that a goat can be releasing a bunch of stored copper from liver and have normal blood levels, when the reality is their liver stores are dwindling toward zilch.

I wouldn't put much stock in the results of that particular test.



> O.K....Define: _NORMAL_?
> 
> So I think ill look for a "supplement" for them. Any suggestion?


The COWP boluses aren't very bioavailable, which means they're the safest form of copper supplementation to use..  If you suspect copper deficiency by other markers ("fish tail", fading pigment, etc), and if your area (and/or the area from which their hay is being cut) is known to be copper deficient, I personally wouldn't hesitate to bolus with COWP.



> They already have a Sweet-Lix (meatmakers) block which they have a "take-it or Leave it" attitude with and their grain feed is a 16% mix... and are on Alfalpha hay.


Blocks don't work well for goats.  Switch them to a good loose mineral, only put out a little at a time, and keep it refreshed often.  They'll use it.  

If you can get one labeled for goats, awesome..  It not, look for a higher-end loose mineral blend for cattle.  And avoid the cheap stuff.  Look for lots of instances of the words "sulfate," "chelate," and/or "proteinate" on the tag, and also as few instances of the word "oxide" as possible.  

Also, since you have a wether, DO NOT feed anything labeled "spring" or "hi-mag" mineral.  Providing high levels of supplemental magnesium in males isn't something you want to do..



> The Vet wants me to switch them to a grass hay (lower in fat?) even though he said they were *NOT* over-weight (Although he did say Chico is "slightly" chubby)...
> Im not sure why I need to switch hay and he gave no reason.  I have the attitude "if its not broken..."  any thoughts on why?


Lots of people are scared of straight alfalfa..  "Too rich" or "too hot" or whatever because the protein content of straight alfalfa runs in the low-20's.  Goats seem to thrive at about 16%..  

However, if it's not causing you problems, I wouldn't worry too much about it..  If you want them to have good hay, but you'd maybe like to save a few bucks, look for a good alfalfa/mix hay.  Those usually run in the mid-teens in terms of protein and the calciumhosphorus ratios are usually down in the 2.5-3:1 range, so they're usually a good blend for goats.

FWIW, my all-time personal favorite goat hay is timothy/clover.


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## ksalvagno (Sep 28, 2010)

If it were me, I would probably go ahead and treat all your goats for coccidia. Better safe than sorry. Then after that, you know what to look for and then just treat individually.

Since you have Sweetlix block available, then I assume you would have the loose mineral available. That is a great mineral to have and my goats eat it up like crazy. I have found that I also have to copper bolus them since we are in a deficient area.


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## Chicos Mama (Sep 28, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> All goat have some level of _coccidia_ present in their systems, suffice it to say if one of your goats have coccidia they all do as it is Extremely contagious.
> _Coccidiosis_  is the disease caused by the overpopulation of coccidia in a goats system.  Kids are Highly suseptable especially during times of stress, weaning.


This was my concern 

The Vet just left me a phone message saying he ordered the "Meds" and they will be here tommorrow, and it is *Corid*, 5 day treatment for all 3 goats, and yes... I will be administering them.

Let me tell you how he came to the "all 3" diagnosis.
Took fecal samples from all three goats...put them *ALL in the SAME **bottle*, mixed them together and did the test 
So he didnt know exacally which goat was positive...therefor he wants me to treat all 3. He said the strain was _VERY CONTAGIOUS _and didnt want to take any chances.
I just dont belive in unnessesary treatments...but he is the Vet...I suppose 
ANNNDDD....

I Called the feed store and a shippment of Timothy (no clover) hay will be here on Friday...Reserved 6 bails! 
I cannot find loose minerals anywhere out here and if i ordered it...the shipping is 2x the cost of the bag itself...so i guess the block will have to do untill i can get to the valley (Phx.) and find a feed store that carries it.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 28, 2010)

Chicos Mama said:
			
		

> The Vet just left me a phone message saying he ordered the "Meds" and they will be here tommorrow, and it is *Corid*, 5 day treatment for all 3 goats, and yes... I will be administering them.


:/

CoRid comes in about 12th on my list of around 3 coccidia meds.  

I dunno why they'd have to "order" CoRid anyway.  Unless he "ordered" someone from the office to run to TSC to buy some.



> Let me tell you how he came to the "all 3" diagnosis.
> Took fecal samples from all three goats...put them *ALL in the SAME **bottle*, mixed them together and did the test
> So he didnt know exacally which goat was positive...therefor he wants me to treat all 3. He said the strain was _VERY CONTAGIOUS _and didnt want to take any chances.
> I just dont belive in unnessesary treatments...but he is the Vet...I suppose


I don't like this vet.

I know you don't wanna here that, and I'm sure this has been a very expensive "test drive," but still..  

Just out of curiosity, did he mix their blood when he tested them for copper deficiency too?





> ANNNDDD....
> 
> I Called the feed store and a shippment of Timothy (no clover) hay will be here on Friday...Reserved 6 bails!


Timothy has one of the more favorable Ca ratios for goats among all the grasses.  It's not an _ideal_ ratio, but it's favorable.  If you can blend it with a little alfalfa in the manger, that would be a good mix.

What I mean to say is...I like timothy.  



> I cannot find loose minerals anywhere out here and if i ordered it...the shipping is 2x the cost of the bag itself...so i guess the block will have to do untill i can get to the valley (Phx.) and find a feed store that carries it.


The good news is that if you get a 50lb sack for 2 goats, it'll last you until about about 2068.


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