# How much land do I want?



## LMK17 (Mar 27, 2017)

So the family (husband, 2 kiddos, 1 dog, 2 cats) and I are about to jump into homesteading!  It's a long held dream of ours, and we're thrilled.  The only thing between us and our big dreams is...  buying some land.  It's a minor hurdle, right?    

We've been actively shopping for a couple months, and all the options and considerations are overwhelming!  I feel like our search is just all over the place.  I can't even pin down the amount of land I think we want, so that's my question for you all:  How much land should we be shopping for?

Some background:  It's going to be me and the kids (ages 8 & nearly 5) managing the place.  We homeschool, so while the kids are always around to help, I don't have huge chunks of time to head out to the field and work for hours on end without interruption.  My husband will pitch in when he can, but the reality is he works long hours and is rarely home before 7.  It'll be even later if the move increases his commute time.  Right now, we maintain organic gardens and fruit trees-- even the kids each have a little plot of their own-- so I hope to have the gardens up and running shortly after moving in.   Animals and such will come in time, but only as our resources allow.  It's a multiyear plan, so please don't think I'm planning to do all this, all at once!    Year 1 will probably be gardens and fences, year 2 might bring chickens and pigs, and so on...

Once we hit peak production, I hope to have:  a pair of large donkeys (for driving and riding), about 3 feeder pigs/yr, laying hens + meat birds (including maybe a turkey), gardens, an orchard, bees, and dual-purpose dairy/meat something (either mini cows or goats).

I want to have enough land that we can do exactly what we want without feeling cramped...  My big fear is that we'll hit our homesteading stride only to discover that we're outgrowing our property!  But I don't want too much land-- I'm afraid I'll be over extended managing acres and acres of land + caring for my little humans + homeschooling-- and more land, of course, can bring greater expenses.  I don't want to have to maintain miles of fenceline or get a gigantic tractor just to keep the place running. 

We're considering properties from 5.5 acres up to 20+ acres right now.  Any thoughts on where we should be focusing our search, acreage-wise?  FWIW, we'll be located just outside San Antonio, TX.  Thanks a bunch for your thoughts!


----------



## NH homesteader (Mar 27, 2017)

Well... It depends. On a lot of things! I consider 5 acres to be perfect, but I do not have (nor do I want) cattle. My husband and I in a perfect world would have 5 acres of pasture and 5 acres of woods. This is primarily for harvesting firewood, so you are not in as much need of that!

Fencing is EXPENSIVE! It might be helpful if you studied each animal you are considering and wrote it all down on paper, and see how much you come up with.

For me, more than 10 is overwhelming and the rest, if I had more, would be fairly neglected! But it all depends on the person, and the environment.

Edit: also it depends on how much you want to supplement feed for the animals you will have, and how much the land can sustain, which will depend upon soil, etc. Basically there are a million variables!


----------



## Bossroo (Mar 27, 2017)

I would recommend that you first consult with your County Agriculture Extention Agent. What price range do you qualify for ?  What prices are properties bring in your area ?  Is a house on the property or just land ?   What is your local property  tax structure and exemptions ?   What are the soil types in your area...  loam, sandy, rocky , hardpan , animal carying capacity ?  How about rainfall, irrigation water availability, rainfall, weather, vegetation types, trees and brush or lack of,  location, location, location etc, etc.  ???   Answers to these things and more will determine what you can purchase.


----------



## farmerjan (Mar 27, 2017)

@Bossroo hit all the high spots.  If you are thinking cattle then you need to double what you think you need, so that you can have some room to rotate pastures and such and that will make you more "self-sufficient".   But what you need in say Va is very different from what you will need in Tx and I am not familiar with the climate in the San Antonio area.  Also realize that you do not have to "maintain" all the land.  Allowing for some to be "buffer" from neighbors isn't such a bad idea.  Woods and such do not need to be fenced initially, and may never need fencing.  But knowing that someone will not be able to build right up against the "using" part of your homestead is kinda nice.  Neighbors that are neither seen nor heard......
There are alot of Texas folks on here....@latestarter, @greybeard ..


----------



## LMK17 (Mar 27, 2017)

Bossroo said:


> I would recommend that you first consult with your County Agriculture Extention Agent. What price range do you qualify for ?  What prices are properties bring in your area ?  Is a house on the property or just land ?   What is your local property  tax structure and exemptions ?   What are the soil types in your area...  loam, sandy, rocky , hardpan , animal carying capacity ?  How about rainfall, irrigation water availability, rainfall, weather, vegetation types, trees and brush or lack of,  location, location, location etc, etc.  ???   Answers to these things and more will determine what you can purchase.



Fortunately, we're not on a strict budget.  We could purchase a few acres or more.  It mostly comes down to the house on the land-  A 5-10 acre plot should give us a very nice, newish house north of the city ($$$$ area).  South of the city, we could get a couple dozen acres with an older house.  Land is running about $9K/acre and maybe $150ish/sqft for a house.  Kinda pricey, as we can't get too far from San Antonio.  Ag exemptions are giving us headaches.  Generally speaking, I think I want to just pay market rate taxes on a smaller plot of land.  Under 10 acres isn't likely to get an exemption, and taxes should be manageable.  10-20 acres would be hard to keep an exemption, I think, but the taxes on that size plot might be a problem.  Above 20 acres, we could be exempt, but it would maybe require jumping through some hoops that I'm not in the mood to jump...   Soils vary tremendously.  Down south, it's straight sand.  East or west, you get a lot of clay.  North, it's rocky with maybe just a few inches of topsoil.  Likewise with brush.  Down south is scrubbrush, east is largely savannah and plains, north is Hill Country.  And we're looking in all those places!  LOL  I much prefer going north.  The Hill Country is beautiful, and we already spend a lot of time there.  Pretty much any where else gives us more bang for the buck, though.  

A ballpark number on carrying capacity around here is 1 AU/5 acres, assuming some level of improved pasture.

Here's my math so far.  For this example, I'm assuming 3 Dexter cows @ 600 lb each, 2 large standard donkeys, and 12 broiler chickens.  So, I can round up and call the cows 2 AU total.  That's 10 acres just for the cows.  The donkeys, I've read, need at least 1 acre of pasture/pair.  We're up to 11 acres, then.  And I've seen 25 sqft/bird for chickens kept on pasture, but even then, the amount of pasture for 12 birds is negligable.  So that's 11+ acres in pasture that I would need, right?  Plus extra space for the house/yard, coop for laying hens, and pig pen.  So I should be shooting for at least 12 acres??  Sound reasonable?  Am I missing anything?  For a smaller plot, I could go with goats instead of cows, since the cows have the biggest need for space.

Then again, if I rotate all the animals on the same pasture, I could save a little on space, right?  And not all the animals would be on pasture for the entire year...  How would I add that into the calculations?  Or is it better just to go with my 12 acre calculation to be on the safe side?


----------



## Bruce (Mar 27, 2017)

Seems like tough sledding no matter which direction you go. Doesn't sound like any of it is decent for growing things.

I think a standard donley would come in at 1/2 AU. If your carrying capacity is 1 AU/5 acres, you need 5 acres for the 2 donkeys. And that assumes you are not doing any rotational grazing to help the pasture. If you do rotational grazing you'll need 20 for the cows and 10 more for the donkeys. The 25 chickens really don't count. You can run them in a pasture with the other animals. They eat mostly bugs, take bits of this plant, that one that is seeding, clip the tips of the grass over there. My girls (have had as many as 16 at one time) have plenty of room and the only place they cause "trouble" with growing things is under the lilac bush and a nearby fir tree where they like to dust bathe. I think like any other animal chickens only "over graze" when they are kept in too small an area.

And then what about your garden and orchard? Need space for them too.


----------



## NH homesteader (Mar 27, 2017)

It is also preferable to rotate pigs on pasture, to avoid parasite issues.


----------



## LMK17 (Mar 27, 2017)

Bruce said:


> Seems like tough sledding no matter which direction you go. Doesn't sound like any of it is decent for growing things.
> 
> I think a standard donley would come in at 1/2 AU. If your carrying capacity is 1 AU/5 acres, you need 5 acres for the 2 donkeys. And that assumes you are not doing any rotational grazing to help the pasture. If you do rotational grazing you'll need 20 for the cows and 10 more for the donkeys. The 25 chickens really don't count. You can run them in a pasture with the other animals. They eat mostly bugs, take bits of this plant, that one that is seeding, clip the tips of the grass over there. My girls (have had as many as 16 at one time) have plenty of room and the only place they cause "trouble" with growing things is under the lilac bush and a nearby fir tree where they like to dust bathe. I think like any other animal chickens only "over graze" when they are kept in too small an area.
> 
> And then what about your garden and orchard? Need space for them too.



It's not ideal for growing things, for the most part.  Fortunately, I've gotten used to using an organic program that greatly improves the soil over time.  And I can always do raised beds for most of the garden.

Not being argumentative, just trying to figure out whether I'm sorely mistaken:  My understanding is that the donkeys don't do well on lush pasture.  As I've seen it jokingly mentioned, donkeys get fat just breathing good air.  So I figure that if the pasture is good, the donks won't be on it all the time; I'll probably need to confine them to a yard.  So 5 acres of lush pasture for 2 donkeys seems like overkill.  On the other hand, if the pasture grass is poor, the donkeys might be on it all the time, but in that case, cows might not do well on the grass, and I might want to consider goats instead.  Either way, I don't think the calculation needs to be 10 acres for cows + 5 acres for donkeys.   

And doesn't rotational grazing work the other way?  Meaning, if I need 5 acres/AU for continuous grazing, then intensively managing the pastures and practicing rotational grazing means that I can actually increase my stocking density, right?  So more animals on less land?  I really don't think that for rotational grazing I'd need 30 acres+ for 3 mini cows and 2 donkeys...?

Gardens and orchards would be pretty small and could be on the "yard" part of the property, assuming about 1-2 acres is dedicated to a yard/house.



NH homesteader said:


> It is also preferable to rotate pigs on pasture, to avoid parasite issues.



I was thinking of penning the pigs in areas where I want to establish gardens... Let them till up the land for me for a few months at a time.  Later, they could occasionally run through the orchard or go back through and "plow" the garden plots here and there.  Probably would also have a dedicated pen for times that having them any where else is inadvisable for some reason.  Is this a bad idea?

I'll have to look up pasture raising pigs... I've been the damage wild hogs do around here; putting pigs on good pastureland scares me!


----------



## NH homesteader (Mar 27, 2017)

Lol I hear you! I'm going to tag @misfitmorgan for pasture raising pig information. She's got a lot more experience than me! 

I don't know about the land needs, but goats aren't huge grass eaters. I mean, they'll eat it, but they prefer to browse. And they'll need grain and hay, particularly if you're milking them.

Chickens take up a negligible amount of land. I don't know anything about donkeys. Except they freak me out, lol! 

@Baymule did you have a donkey or mule? Either way, she would know how much they eat, and she knows Texas soil! @frustratedearthmother also.


----------



## Baymule (Mar 27, 2017)

I've had donkeys and a mule. Donkeys are desert animals and don't require as much as a horse. They need good hay, clean water, shelter and grass or browse. They will eat weeds that cows or horses won't.

www.lovelongears.com  This site has lots of information on donkeys.

If you use donkeys as pasture guards, make it a gelding or jenney, never a jack. A jack will go after other livestock that is in heat and can injure them. A friend of mine had a jack with his cows and the jack fought the bull off them and chased the cows when they came in heat. He got rid of the jack.

How many acres does your county consider the minimum for claiming Ag? It might be a good idea to buy at least the minimum.

Even pastured pigs will roll up a pasture if there isn't enough grass. We currently have 4 pigs on 3/4 an acre and they utterly destroyed it in less than a week. We have 8 acres and don't have enough pasture to rotate pastured pigs. A neighbor has Kune Kune pigs, supposedly the ultimate pasture pig, but he doesn't rotate them and they have stripped all vegetation in their pen.

We also have 3 horses (hole in our pocket we dump money in), 5 ewes, 1 ram, 4 lambs and maybe 30 chickens. Just got Muscovie ducks today. The pigs will go to slaughter in June or July. Then we're going to level up their damage and plant grasses and forbs. It will lay fallow next winter.

Our soil is sand. Hard grazing, or any grazing for that matter, on the sparse grass that is there, takes a long time to recover. In the summer, it bakes to a crisp. We are working on adding humus to the soil in the form of rotten hay, compost and wood chips. We are north of Tyler and get plenty of rain. It will take time to build better pastures.

Other property around us is red iron ore/clay soil. A lot of it is pasture with cattle. Most of the land here is forest.

San Antonio gets 30-32 inches average rainfall. Tyler gets 46 inches average, in 2015 we got 68 inches. As far as stocking rate of AU, consult with the county extension agent. He or she will be able to advise you on the local soils and what animals they can support.


----------



## Latestarter (Mar 27, 2017)

For what you want, it seems to me that 10-15 acres should work out about right for you. Not sure why 3 Dexters vice 2... one pregnant and one lactating... Unless you wanted more overlap. Really if the land you buy has a 10 acre requirement for the 3 Dexters, then you break that into 3-4 pastures and rotate the cows through each. That gives each a chance to recover between use. I hope you find the ideal property for what you want to do!


----------



## norseofcourse (Mar 28, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> A ballpark number on carrying capacity around here is 1 AU/5 acres, assuming some level of improved pasture.





LMK17 said:


> So 5 acres of lush pasture for 2 donkeys seems like overkill.


I'm thinking that if carrying capacity is 1 animal unit per five acres, it's not 'lush' pasture?


----------



## Bruce (Mar 28, 2017)

That was my thought as well Norse. "Lush pasture" on land with a carrying capacity of 0.2 AU/acre seems like it would be an oxymoron. Especially so since that carrying capacity is dependant on "some level of improved pasture". Not sure how easy it is to "improve" sand, rock or clay when you are talking acres, not square feet of garden for personal use where you can afford to dump quantities of whatever the soil needs.

I would think on land like that "intensive pasture/grazing management" would tend toward moving the animals every day if not more often through smaller pasture areas so they don't take much out leaving the roots with little green to keep the plants alive. Follow grass grazers with chickens that will eat the bugs, etc.

There was an article in Organic Living in the last issue or the one before that on how someone used rotational grazing with the "proper type of animals" to bring back hay fields that were unable to grow much of anything without large amounts of chemical fertilizer as had been done for decades by the prior owners.


----------



## promiseacres (Mar 28, 2017)

Frankly get as much land as you can afford. Any "extra" pasture can become hay ground (shares or lease it if you don't want to make it yourself)  where I am you can (with rotation and limited time on pasture) support about 1000# of livestock per acre, go north a few miles I suspect it is 1000# per 3,4 acres due to sand. We have sand too, but it's black sand and better producing. You won't have extra very long.... it never seems like enough. Especially with large livestock. Even miniature cows consume massive amounts of water, so make sure there's a good water source, year around.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Mar 28, 2017)

We are considered to have LUSH pasture here. Our recommended stocking rate is 1.33AU_(1,333lbs)_ per 1 Acre but even here a pair of donkey would require at least 2 acres of pasture in order to not tear it up or graze it down to a crisp. 

You are correct intensive pasture rotation is to make the most out of a smaller parcel and does allow you a higher stocking rate but that is all relative to your AU too. Your recommended stocking rate converts out to 0.2AU per 1 Acre that is 200lbs per acre. An _average _adult donkey weighs 350lbs times 2 because you want 2 of them, that comes out to 700lbs divide that by your AU 700/.2=3.5. So your donkey pair would need 3.5 acres of pasture, you could get away with 3 acres divided into two 1.5 acre parcels i'm pretty sure.

The dexter cows weigh 600-1000lbs each, typically the bulls are up to 1,000lbs heifers/cows are going to be 600-700lbs. So if you are only doing heifers/cows you can average it out to .65au for each cow times 3 is 1.95/0.2=9.75acres for the cows.

Pigs.. if the pigs are going to be butcher pigs you can average them at .275au each times 3 for your 3 pigs so thats .825/0.2=4.125acres for the pigs.

So we have the following:
Donkey x 2 = 3 acres
Cows x 3 = 9.75 acres
Pigs x 3 = 4.125 acres
Plus your 1-2 acres for around the house/garden/orchard
18-19acres is the minimum requirement

Alternatively if it was swapped to goats instead of cows.

Goats are 0.10au per animal so say and if your wanting them for milk to be equivalent to the dexter cows would be approx 6 goats assuming they give 1 gallon each a day. If your wanting the cows for meat to be equivalent you would need approx 13 goats.
So milk goats .1x6=.6/.2=3 acres
Meat Goats .1x13=1.3/.2=6.5 acre

So we have the following:
Donkey x 2 = 3 acres
Milk goats x 6 = 3 acres
Pigs x 3 = 4.125 acres
Plus your 1-2 acres for around the house/garden/orchard
12-13acres is the minimum requirement

Or the following:
Donkey x 2 = 3 acres
Meat goats x 6 = 6.5 acres
Pigs x 3 = 4.125 acres
Plus your 1-2 acres for around the house/garden/orchard
15-16acres is the minimum requirement

Your also going to need space for shelters, feeders, waterers, grain storage, hay/straw storage, manure pile. Also consider that as your family grows your garden needs or animal needs may as well. Putting the pigs in the garden area is an excellant idea however keep in mine that beyond the intial  pig "plowing" the only left for them to get from your garden area is going to be fall cleanup. Since your only planning on 1-2 acres by the house i would assume your garden would only be about 1/2acre max, 3 pigs on a half acre will be tore up with nothing left to eat very quickly...maybe a week if your lucky. So counting on them going in the garden for long periods of time is not really a viable option. You also need to be super careful putting pigs in an orchard, like let them in the orchard and go check on them in 2 hrs and when they have eaten all the down fruit or their fill for the day take them back to their pen/pasture. Pigs easily can and will root up fruit trees esp young trees. 

Rotational grazing as i mentioned is directly related to your AU for your area but it is also related to your rainfall and temps. If you have a year with hot hot temps and little rainfall the odds are your au is going o drop even farther like 1au per 7.5 acres and as soon as your AU drops your pasture doesnt have a chance in you know where of recovering that season. General good farming practices say not to max out your lands capacity for day to day living which makes plenty of sense. 

Also consider what if your children want other animals later say sheep, a mini horse, ducks, etc where would you put them?

I would add a 25% buffer to the numbers above at the very least.
18-19 acres would be 22.5-23.75 acres
12-13 acres would be 15-16.25 acres
15-16 acres would be 18.75-20acres

17-25acres seems the most realistic for what your wanting to do. You do not want to end up feeling you need more land in 5-10years and you also do not want to get stuck buying hay all summer/fall/winter because you had a bad year for your pasture.

Also i would prefer clay to sand so would probly go north or west. From looking at satellite maps north and west also look a lot more green then south and east.


----------



## NH homesteader (Mar 28, 2017)

@misfitmorgan you are good at this! Lol I am so going to ask for your advice when I'm land shopping!


----------



## Bossroo (Mar 28, 2017)

A donkey is not very cost effective animal to keep. I have neighbors that had jennies and gelded donkeys that harrassed as well as maimed./killed other farm animals that were pastured with them. Consider swaping them for a beef, sheep , or goat for a better return on your investment.


----------



## LMK17 (Mar 28, 2017)

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts!  



Baymule said:


> How many acres does your county consider the minimum for claiming Ag? It might be a good idea to buy at least the minimum.
> 
> Even pastured pigs will roll up a pasture if there isn't enough grass. We currently have 4 pigs on 3/4 an acre and they utterly destroyed it in less than a week. We have 8 acres and don't have enough pasture to rotate pastured pigs. A neighbor has Kune Kune pigs, supposedly the ultimate pasture pig, but he doesn't rotate them and they have stripped all vegetation in their pen.



It depends on the county.  One county we're looking at has no actual minimum acreage, but there is a functional acreage, so to speak.  For animals, they require about 4 AU regardless of species, so I figure there's no point in trying for an ag exemption for them unless we have >20 acres.  Another county requires 15 acres for cattle and most other animals. 

I really don't see myself getting into pastured pigs, as much as I like the idea.  They're just way too destructive.  I think I'll need to give any hogs a nicely sized pen that I'm OK turning to mud, run them other places when practical, and just call it good.



Latestarter said:


> Not sure why 3 Dexters vice 2... one pregnant and one lactating...



That's a good point.  I had been thinking 1 brood cow for milk + her calf + buy another calf to put on her.  We don't need all that much milk, so I think we'd be fine sharing with the babies, and then I would have an extra beef or perhaps a heifer to sell...  You know what, though?  I'll bet that would work better with full size cattle.  AND I'm probably grossly overestimating the availability of newborn Dexters!  LOL  Also, since space is maybe an issue for us, we're probably better off foregoing the 3rd cow.  Thanks.



norseofcourse said:


> I'm thinking that if carrying capacity is 1 animal unit per five acres, it's not 'lush' pasture?



LOL  OK, you got me there!  Still, some pasture around here is, of course, better than others.  That's what I was thinking of.  Even around here, I suspect that a donkey might get overweight on the best local pastureland.  The typical pasture around here is probably right up a donkey's alley.



Bruce said:


> That was my thought as well Norse. "Lush pasture" on land with a carrying capacity of 0.2 AU/acre seems like it would be an oxymoron. Especially so since that carrying capacity is dependant on "some level of improved pasture". Not sure how easy it is to "improve" sand, rock or clay when you are talking acres, not square feet of garden for personal use where you can afford to dump quantities of whatever the soil needs.



Once again, you guys got me there...   Not exactly lush...  But by improved pasture, I meant not native pasture.  Stocking densities for native pasture here are like 1 AU/15 acres or something.  I meant, for example, a pasture planted in coastal bermuda, which is common enough around here...  Maybe there's a better term I should've used?



misfitmorgan said:


> We are considered to have LUSH pasture here. Our recommended stocking rate is 1.33AU_(1,333lbs)_ per 1 Acre but even here a pair of donkey would require at least 2 acres of pasture in order to not tear it up or graze it down to a crisp.
> ...
> 
> Also i would prefer clay to sand so would probly go north or west. From looking at satellite maps north and west also look a lot more green then south and east.



Wow!  Thanks so much for all the work you put into that!  I really appreciate it!  Your numbers and recommendations seem spot on.  The only thing I adjusted down for my own purposes was the 4+ acres for pigs...  I just don't see myself pasturing the pigs.  I'd love to do that for them, but they'er just SO HARD on pasture.  If penning them doesn't work for one reason or another, I'll probably just go back to buying my bacon from the grocery store!  LOL  Really, thanks again!



Bossroo said:


> A donkey is not very cost effective animal to keep. I have neighbors that had jennies and gelded donkeys that harrassed as well as maimed./killed other farm animals that were pastured with them. Consider swaping them for a beef, sheep , or goat for a better return on your investment.



Oh, I'm being totally selfish in wanting the donkeys!  I've wanted a horse pretty much my whole life, BUT I have very little equine experience, and I can't get past the idea of horses as money pits.  However, larger donkeys can do pretty much anything I'd like a horse to do (pleasure riding, some driving), and they're generally considered to be easier keepers with maybe more sense than horses.  I figure if I'm going to get an equine, longears are a good place to start.  My dream, though, would be a matched pair of Norwegian Fjords.  Anyway, pretty much all my animals need to earn their keep, but the equines can be a splurge, far as I'm concerned!  And I've known horses and goats to chase and harass other animals, too, so it's not just the donks.  You make a good point, though.

So, my husband and I sat down for a good long while tonight and went back over the potential properties.  We've pretty much scratched anything under 10 acres from our list.  Actually, we sent our real estate agent a list of our top 5 or so places.  They range from just a hair over 11 acres to 23 acres-- Hopefully something in there will work out!  Unfortunately, they're all south of here, and I'd rather not head down that way.  But up north, the biggest tract in our price range right now is only 8 acres.


----------



## Latestarter (Mar 29, 2017)

Just remember... it's all about location, and you get what you pay for. 8 acres of decent quality property might be far better than 23 acres of crap property.


----------



## NH homesteader (Mar 29, 2017)

Not to squash your dream, but have you ever worked with a Fjord? Lol they are independent stubborn things! To put it mildly!

Were you planning on breeding pigs or doing feeder pigs? Sorry I can't remember. Having just feeder pigs in a pen isn't bad, breeding presents more of an issue.

The other thing is, are you ok with supplementing? You don't need that much land if you are supplementing with hay, grain, etc. It's great to not have to buy feed for a good portion of the year but if you end up spending a fortune on fencing it might be better to spend some of that fortune on hay... It's totally up to you.

Oh and yes, Dexters are expensive so good plan on sticking with 2!


----------



## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> @misfitmorgan you are good at this! Lol I am so going to ask for your advice when I'm land shopping!



I try to help as much as i can 



LMK17 said:


> Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts!
> Wow!  Thanks so much for all the work you put into that!  I really appreciate it!  Your numbers and recommendations seem spot on.  The only thing I adjusted down for my own purposes was the 4+ acres for pigs...  I just don't see myself pasturing the pigs.  I'd love to do that for them, but they'er just SO HARD on pasture.  If penning them doesn't work for one reason or another, I'll probably just go back to buying my bacon from the grocery store!  LOL  Really, thanks again!
> 
> 
> ...



No problem, happy to help. If you do penned pigs instead of pasture you could just include them in the 1-2house acres. Dropping down to 2 cows and penned pigs your new minimum number would be 13-15acres. You might seriously consider switching to 1 meat cow and maybe some goats or sheep, if you dont use much milk one milk goat is probly enough for your family. 

2 donkeys = 3acres
1 cow = 3.25acres
1 dairy goat = 1/2 acre
1-2 acre by the house
Thats a total of 8-9acres plus say up to 5 meat goats/sheep is another 2.5acres...so thats 10.5-11.5acres plus the 25% for growth/unexspected 14-15 acres.

I don't know what your price range is but this place looks like it could be ideal both in acreage and existing structures. It is South but boy does it look like it has really really good pasture. Appears the proerty is already completely fenced for horses and has a corral and stalls etc.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...24,-98.111344,29.001534,-99.025956_rect/9_zm/

I also saw this one....it has extra land so you could possibly sell the extra and use the money to update the house. Again it is south but the pasture looks good and it has some pens/a barn.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...24,-98.111344,29.001534,-99.025956_rect/9_zm/

This place is Northwest and looks nice though more expensive. Just under 18 acres too
https://www.trulia.com/property/3235515992-101-Lost-Vly-Boerne-TX-78006

Have you thought about buying bare land and putting a house on it? 

Donkey's can be guard animals as well....depending on the donkey. Are you sure you mean a donkey though and not a mule? Donkey's are much smaller and dont just have long ears.


----------



## promiseacres (Mar 29, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> Not to squash your dream, but have you ever worked with a Fjord? Lol they are independent stubborn things! To put it mildly!



 in my experience so are donkeys.... 

LMK don't rule out a horse if you wanting a riding or driving companion. There's definitely breeds that are easy keepers and more trainable than donkeys. No offense to long ear lovers, but donkeys do take special people to work with them   definitely not for everyone.


----------



## Bossroo (Mar 29, 2017)

promiseacres said:


> in my experience so are donkeys....
> 
> LMK don't rule out a horse if you wanting a riding or driving companion. There's definitely breeds that are easy keepers and more trainable than donkeys. No offense to long ear lovers, but donkeys do take special people to work with them   definitely not for everyone.


Due to the donkey's conformation, the ride will be akin to a Model T Ford being driven over a old, pot holed country road.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2017)

Bossroo said:


> Due to the donkey's conformation, the ride will be akin to a Model T Ford being driven over a old, pot holed country road.



Thats to keep you awake while your driving....i mean riding 

Sorry @LMK17 we are only teasing a bit.


----------



## Baymule (Mar 29, 2017)

Get a Tennessee Walker.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Mar 29, 2017)

I'd like to get a mule.
I'm a big fan.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Mar 29, 2017)

Baymule said:


> Get a Tennessee Walker.



Anything gaited is so nice to ride.


----------



## Baymule (Mar 29, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> I'd like to get a mule.
> I'm a big fan.


I sold mine last month. Got tired of her wanting to stomp to death any and everything that wasn't a horse.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 1, 2017)

Sorry I've been delayed in responding.  We were camping for a few days, so I was away from my computer.  



misfitmorgan said:


> I try to help as much as i can ...
> 
> This place is Northwest and looks nice though more expensive. Just under 18 acres too
> https://www.trulia.com/property/3235515992-101-Lost-Vly-Boerne-TX-78006
> ...



Thanks again!  We seriously considered that one in Boerne.  Unfortunately, it's already under contract.  Would've been nice to have 17+ acres up that way, though!  And that's kinda what I mean about things up there being expensive-- That was a mobile home listed for close to $400K.  And even then, that's way less than anything else I've seen up that way on so much land.  Properties up north are hard to come by, it seems.  

We have considered building.  I still kind of like the idea, although I'm worried about unforeseen costs with bringing on utilities and such.  I need to talk with someone regarding general building costs around here, but since I haven't done that yet, we're focusing on existing construction.  Still keeping the building option open, though.

And I definitely mean donkeys.    I have considered mules, too, but since I'm specifically trying to stay away from what I consider to be the major drawbacks of horses (spooky, expensive), I'm not keen on getting anything that's even part horse!  LOL  I think a large standard donkey should suit us well.  I do hear mules are very good at stomping rattlesnakes to death, so they've got that in their favor!  

I also like the idea of a donkey as a guard animal.  I don't want to get one specifically for that purpose, as I primarily want to drive and ride and donkey, but if the ones I end up with also happen to be good guardians, I won't complain, as long as they leave my dogs alone.



promiseacres said:


> in my experience so are donkeys....
> 
> LMK don't rule out a horse if you wanting a riding or driving companion. There's definitely breeds that are easy keepers and more trainable than donkeys. No offense to long ear lovers, but donkeys do take special people to work with them   definitely not for everyone.



OK.  I may just eat these words at some point in the future, but here goes...  One of the things I find attractive about donkeys is that they're more challenging to train and work!  Like I said, I'm going to be new to equines, and I actually don't want an animal that's too malleable.  I have read that back in the olden days, the first animals given to a kid to train were oxen, as it takes a fair level of skill to train them.  The thinking was that the kid would develop solid skills and then could move on to more easily trainable animals after he had a solid foundation.  Getting a less "stubborn" beast right off the bat could lead to sloppy work and less patience... Anyway, seems like there's a fair amount of wisdom in that.  I don't think I like cattle well enough to work a pair of oxen, though!  LOL


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 1, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> Just remember... it's all about location, and you get what you pay for. 8 acres of decent quality property might be far better than 23 acres of crap property.



True.  Unfortunately, the area that I like most generally tends to have fewer available properties, smaller plots, AND crappier farmland!  It's a a lot going for it, huh?  



NH homesteader said:


> Not to squash your dream, but have you ever worked with a Fjord? Lol they are independent stubborn things! To put it mildly!
> 
> Were you planning on breeding pigs or doing feeder pigs? Sorry I can't remember. Having just feeder pigs in a pen isn't bad, breeding presents more of an issue.
> 
> The other thing is, are you ok with supplementing? You don't need that much land if you are supplementing with hay, grain, etc. It's great to not have to buy feed for a good portion of the year but if you end up spending a fortune on fencing it might be better to spend some of that fortune on hay... It's totally up to you.



I have not worked with Fjords!  I don't necessarily mind working with a stubborn animal; I want a steady one, primarily.  Given the choice, I'd rather have animals that don't want to move when I ask them to versus "well trained" ones who spook and bolt...  I've heard that Fjords are generally not spooky and are used some places as therapy animals.  So they've got that in their favor...  Plus they're adorable.    Honestly, though, I'd be just as happy if I end up LOVING donkeys and stick with them.

It'll be feeder pigs.  Not really into the idea of breeding pigs.

I'm OK with supplementing when absolutely necessary, but in general, I'd like the land to provide enough forage to keep the animals fed.  Don't want to run into an issue of needing to bring in hay in the springtime because there's no enough land for the animals!    At least with fencing, I'd buy it only rarely and just have to maintain it in the meanwhile.  Plus we'd have some options regarding materials, hire out or provide the labor ourselves, etc.  Without the land, we'd be tied to bringing in food regularly, no matter what.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 3, 2017)

LMK17, have you thought about going to George West, or Three Rivers? I know both of those are about 1 hour from San Antonio. The prices there are much cheaper. Land generally goes for about $3400.00 or a little more per acre. There is a new listing with 5 acres and a brick home there for $169000. in George West.  I don't know how grand you want it or what kind of budget you have.  There is also 32 acre plot, fenced but without a house for $212000.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 3, 2017)

We put in a certified septic system and electric service on 11 acres along with a cabin. The septic was $5500. and the electric pole was $1500. We also had a cottage built. We had bought 11 acres in Leakey, but we have sold it now to buy 30 acres with a home.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 3, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> Thanks again!  We seriously considered that one in Boerne.  Unfortunately, it's already under contract.  Would've been nice to have 17+ acres up that way, though!  And that's kinda what I mean about things up there being expensive-- That was a mobile home listed for close to $400K.  And even then, that's way less than anything else I've seen up that way on so much land.  Properties up north are hard to come by, it seems.
> 
> We have considered building.  I still kind of like the idea, although I'm worried about unforeseen costs with bringing on utilities and such.  I need to talk with someone regarding general building costs around here, but since I haven't done that yet, we're focusing on existing construction.  Still keeping the building option open, though.
> 
> ...



I see today the one in Boerne has the listing down so it must have sold for sure. Have you checked out the property on Jett Rd? Honestly it looks like a heck of a deal and lush with property suited to horses....which means it should be good for most any other livestock and already being fences, esp the perimeter fence with driveway gates is a huge plus honestly.

If the north has high prices, crumby farmland, and smaller and fewer plots why on earth do you want to live there? None of those sound like good things or perks. Unless you want to go an hour or more north/northwest i can't see a single property that would be good for livestock other then goats(considering you want to pasture feed) short of paying over 1/2 a million for not much in acreage or buildings.

Maybe really consider your most important goals? 

Is it going to be better for you to live north or northwest and possibly have to squeeze more animals in then the land can support and then have to supplement them year round? 

Alternatively do you want to live in the north but only have room for a few goats/sheep and penned pigs with a small garden and a fruit tree or two?

Is it more important to live in the north/northwest then to not have to buy feed year round?

Im not anti-north/northwest but honestly if you want to have livestock and dont want to set your self up for failure with a very high mortgage payment and a very high feed bill the north doesnt make any sense. There are several nice places to the south/east that look like they have really nice improved pasture land and trees for shade along with a reasonable amount of acreage with a low mortgage payment. A lower payment would mean that if you hit a bad season and your pasture  did turn into a burned crisp you could easily afford feed for a few months until it came back.

It's not my house and i'm not trying to force you to do anything by all means if you want a house a certain place you are entitled to it but really i cant see anything that makes the north better, most of the places look like poo or poo with poo pasture unless over 400K and even then it is 12acres or less.

Just make sure you know what you really want.

You could always sell later and buy a new house as well but that is a pain.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 3, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> LMK17, have you thought about going to George West, or Three Rivers?



I love the idea of less expensive land, but with either of those, my husband's commute would be in the ball park of 70 miles each way, unfortunately.



misfitmorgan said:


> ...Have you checked out the property on Jett Rd? Honestly it looks like a heck of a deal and lush with property suited to horses....which means it should be good for most any other livestock and already being fences, esp the perimeter fence with driveway gates is a huge plus honestly.
> 
> If the north has high prices, crumby farmland, and smaller and fewer plots why on earth do you want to live there? None of those sound like good things or perks. Unless you want to go an hour or more north/northwest i can't see a single property that would be good for livestock other then goats(considering you want to pasture feed) short of paying over 1/2 a million for not much in acreage or buildings.



Jett Rd might be a good deal, but there are several things I don't like about it.  For one, the house is a bit small for us.  We live in about 1900 sqft now, and it works nicely though is a bit cramped given all the homeschool "stuff" we accumulate.  Jett Rd is 1400 sqft.  Granted, we could always consider adding onto it, but that brings me to my other issue with it.  Namely, it's just outside the San Antonio city limits, and SA has a pretty aggressive annexation policy.  When we moved to the city 9 years ago, we were right on the edge of town, and lots of new neighborhoods just beyond us were advertising "No City Taxes!" and such.  Well, those places are all miles within the city now, much to the chagrin of many of the residents.  I REALLY don't want our homestead to be within the city and subject to the city ordinances and higher tax rates.

I like north because it's gorgeous, I'm familiar with the area, we have friends up that way, and many of the places we like to visit are there.  Not to mention, there's actually dirt up there and not just sand and sand burrs.  But you are correct that it's crummy farmland, for the most part, and that it's goats who really thrive there (due to the terrain and brush).  That said, I'm not being bullheaded about wanting to live north.  Actually, we have an appointment with our real estate agent to see properties tomorrow, and all those places are south of SA (Somerset, Floresville, and Stockdale areas).  I honestly do realize that our best opportunites will likely be south or east...  Still, a girl can dream, right?  

 <---  My 8 year old happened by as I was typing this and asked if he could add in emojis, so here they are. --->


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 3, 2017)

Anyone want to check these out and give me your thoughts on suitability for farming?  (Fences, pastures, outbulidings...)

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2190-Us-Highway-87-W-Stockdale-TX-78160/2098055622_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/360-County-Road-7711-Devine-TX-78016/2095296861_zpid/

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3070-State-Highway-123-S_Stockdale_TX_78160_M72002-47246#photo2

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2955-County-Road-302-Floresville-TX-78114/2108813226_zpid/


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 3, 2017)

LMK17, don't give up. We were ready to give up when the little property we were buying came along. I get you about the long commute. I homeschool too. We are downsizing to 1500 sq. ft., and building an outbuilding for my husband to have an office. lol We currently have a 3000 sq. ft. house with 4 bds, 4 baths, now down to a 3 bd, 2 bath, but my Hubby has always wanted a place to have cattle, so I will make a compromise. Our other house only had an acre. I was so bummed because we couldn't find what we were looking for, and then bam. It has good bones, and we are having to remodel the baths, kitchen, and redo the flooring. I am channeling Joanna Gaines on the Fixer Upper. Lol. Let us know when you find your dream home. I don't want to offend you, but I will pray for you to find it.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 3, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> LMK17, don't give up... I don't want to offend you, but I will pray for you to find it.



Offend me because you'll pray?    Fat chance.    I've been praying all along for God to guide us and help us know "the" property when we see it.  And that we can use any extra bounty from our farm to bless those in need around us.

So, yeah.  I'm good on the prayer thing.  And thanks!


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 3, 2017)

Glad to know that. Some people get upset. I share eggs all the time with families that need a little extra help. It may not be much, but they look forward to those eggs. I have about 12 chickens. When we close on our new home, we will get some Dexter Cattle. As far as goats go, they are fun. Our kids raised Boer goats for FFA. Goat is very lean. We even made sausage out of it. We also have a small garden where we are living now.  My husband grew up visiting his Grandparents on a ranch with cattle, and his Papa had an egg route. My grandmother worked as a Housekeeper for a rancher up in Livingston. My husband won't raise pigs because they can be really stinky, but his Grandpa did. I  want some Baby doll sheep. You can raise abut 6 baby doll sheep on 1 acre. Geese are good for eating weeds in a garden patch. They usually won't eat the garden crop, but sometimes they can. I  am looking for some cotton patch geese. Guinea Fowl are good for eating bugs in a garden and don't scratch it up. They will eat ticks, and alert on snakes. They are very loud. They are like loud watchdogs. You can eat Guinea Fowl, they are like pheasant. My hubby said all those places look nice. It just depends on your style. Some need more fencing than others. Fencing is about $10,000 a mile(I think that is about 5500 feet). I will be praying for you to find your dream homestead.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 3, 2017)

@Reindeermama where are you located? In Texas? haha we moved from Livingston,Texas  2 years ago to just north of Tyler. We downsized from 2500 sq ft brick home with 2 car garage to 1500 doublewide on 8 acres. We moved to be closer to our DD and family. Downsizing isn't so bad, it sure helps you clear out the clutter LOL.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 3, 2017)

Lol, yes we are in Texas, and moving near George West. My grandma worked as a housekeeper for a Mr. Coleman in Livingston. It is funny. We moved up to a larger house, and then downsized in 2009 to a 2000 sq ft home, then our middle daughter moved back home. We have a younger son who is 12 years younger than her. So we sized back up. Now we are downsizing again. The first time, wow, I got rid of clutter, and furniture. Now I have collected it again.  Oh well, it never hurts to purge and declutter. Besides, the chance to have 30 acres, and for my husband to have the land he has always dreamed of is worth every sacrifice of square footage to me. My son loves the outdoors too. He says he is going to be a farmboy now. He is 14.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 4, 2017)

Your son can have a bedroom in the hayloft


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 4, 2017)

Bruce, he told me I had to buy him muck boots, so he didn't get manure on him, oh, and also he is not going to shovel manure either. I told him if he was going to be a farm boy he better be willing to shovel. I think he thinks being a farm boy is petting the cattle. I can see him in the hayloft for maybe 2 minutes, then he will jump out screaming, Mom there are bugs in here.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 4, 2017)

Sounds like DD1. Well, maybe the farmboy thing will grow on him. There are bugs in the out of doors, get use to it. Of course there are bugs in the "in of doors" as well!

Oh, and have him try on those Mucks before you surprise him with a pair. I found them much too tight on the calf, could hardly pull them on. If course I have some arthritis in my hands so my grip isn't so great. In any case, for "pull on boots" I got a pair of Bogs. They are looser around the calf (I can stick my pant legs inside, couldn't even think about doing that with the Mucks) and have holes in the sides for easy grab and pull on.


----------



## farmerjan (Apr 4, 2017)

Muck boots also come in various heights.  I even have a pair of muck "shoes" that have been a blessing for my bad ankle not bending and still keep my feet dry and warm in the dairies testing cows.  I have a pair of "chore" size that come up about half calf.  Yes they are snug.  Helps to keep the heat in, wet & cold out.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 4, 2017)

It will be quite the sight when he steps in manure, Muck or Bogs on. I spent the summer with my grandmother who worked at Mr. Coleman's ranch. Her own little home came with milk cows, chickens, guinea fowl, peacocks, and  a mean horse named Charlie who liked to sneak up on people and bite them. I begged to milk the cow, until Grandpa finally gave in. I was six. It was all good, until I realized how big they were up close. He probably chuckled for weeks. I ran from the barn. I also got in trouble for chasing the guineas. She had told me to stop once. Boy, all grandma had to do was pick up the wooden spoon from then on. At least I don't think I will have to worry about that with him. I want a donkey, and all kinds of animals.  My husband just rolls his eyes. They were probably more fun when you younger, and didn't have to take care of them, he says. Thanks for letting me know about the mucks and bogs.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 5, 2017)

@Reindeermama my husband said he knew a John or Jack Coleman who had a ranch out Highway 146, he's not sure of the name. Small world.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 5, 2017)

Oh my, it is a small world indeed.  I think his name was John. I always called him Mr. Coleman. I just know that he had cattle, and my grandmother worked as his housekeeper during the week. In the summer, he allowed me to stay there with her in her bedroom.  She had weekends off. He was very kind to me. The last time I stayed with her at his house, I was eleven. He paid attention to me. I loved to read, and was reading the Little House on the Prairie series. He had to go to a rancher's meeting in Houston, and brought me back the next three books in the series. I adored that man. He was so good to me. He took me fishing too. He didn't even fuss when I kept catching the fishing line in the pine trees. The first time I stayed the cows were in coming in from the pasture, and I just saw a huge herd of cows coming and panicked...I ran smack dab into the glass door of his house trying to get to him to tell him the cows were loose(of course they weren't) and it knocked me back a couple of feet onto my bottom.  After grandma and he made sure I was okay, they doubled over laughing. That was one of the best summers ever. That was the summer there were cattle mutilations up there. Boy, was everyone talking about that. It ranged from Aliens, to Satanic Cults that were thought to be doing the mutilations. Maybe your husband has heard of my grandpa, Bart Duff.(Larkin Bartley Duff) He had children there by a previous wife. I think he either worked as a sheriff's deputy or for the police. There is a picture of him with a badge on.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 6, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> Jett Rd might be a good deal, but there are several things I don't like about it.  For one, the house is a bit small for us.  We live in about 1900 sqft now, and it works nicely though is a bit cramped given all the homeschool "stuff" we accumulate.  Jett Rd is 1400 sqft.  Granted, we could always consider adding onto it, but that brings me to my other issue with it.  Namely, it's just outside the San Antonio city limits, and SA has a pretty aggressive annexation policy.  When we moved to the city 9 years ago, we were right on the edge of town, and lots of new neighborhoods just beyond us were advertising "No City Taxes!" and such.  Well, those places are all miles within the city now, much to the chagrin of many of the residents.  I REALLY don't want our homestead to be within the city and subject to the city ordinances and higher tax rates.
> 
> I like north because it's gorgeous, I'm familiar with the area, we have friends up that way, and many of the places we like to visit are there.  Not to mention, there's actually dirt up there and not just sand and sand burrs.  But you are correct that it's crummy farmland, for the most part, and that it's goats who really thrive there (due to the terrain and brush).  That said, I'm not being bullheaded about wanting to live north.  Actually, we have an appointment with our real estate agent to see properties tomorrow, and all those places are south of SA (Somerset, Floresville, and Stockdale areas).  I honestly do realize that our best opportunites will likely be south or east...  Still, a girl can dream, right?
> 
> <---  My 8 year old happened by as I was typing this and asked if he could add in emojis, so here they are. --->



I definitely didnt mean you were being bullheaded and i hope i didnt come off that way. I was just trying to help make sure you were thinking of everything as we so often overlook things when we get excited about a big change like buying  a new home(i know i do and DH has to rein me back in with the "did you notice" or "what about", talk about sticking a pin in your happy ballon)or our long time dream finally being a reality.

That first listing comes back as "off market" so i think it may have sold.
If it is still for sale and the site is wrong. It looks like it would work well for any grazing animal. Goats wouldnt like it a lot as they prefer to browse but they will graze if it is the only option and it doesnt seem to hurt them to do so. It appears to already be at least partly fenced which again is a plus. There are 2-3 small outbuildings i assume at least one is suitable for livestock. A little under 14acres might be a bit tight for the livestock you want but workable with some supplemental feed. That pool is to die for!!

The second one also comes up as "off market"
The listing says lush coastal grass which would be good for livestock but in the pictures it looks really brown/dead which i assume is either from being cut to short or time of year it was taken. The property again looks partly fenced, i do not see any outbuildings in the pictures or listing description. The 20 acres would give you some room to wiggle and let your pastures tolerate the hotter season better most likely but you might still be looking at buying some supplemental feed for a month or two per year. I would definitely say it looks like someone cut it though and it would probly stay greener longer without being cut.

The third one comes up as for sale!
At first i was like acreage looks rather tight...but it looks like you can buy the lots next to it if you wish as well. The single lot to the left is 11acres and would definitely give you enough space for the livestock you want plus a little for "livestock math"...if that option is within you budget/the bank would allow it.  That aside i have to say so far this looks like the absolute best option. The two sections have grazing land and browse land if you did end up with goats. More importantly the un-cut pasture still looks lush and green while the cut grass not under the shade trees, around the house is mostly dead which suggests you wont have a problem with running out of green stuff for your livestock to eat in pasture. The pastures also boost several shade trees/bushes and is partly fenced. The pole barn looks livestock ready and like it already has water ran to it. I would say this is a solid property for what your after for livestock. I also notice there might be a pong by that one shade tree out in the pasture. The added browse will help stretch the pasture a bit as even grazers will browse if the browse looks better then the graze options, so if you can not budget in the additional lot next door you might be alright anyhow. The paper in the pictures states the additional lots are $8,000 per acre but i would assume since they are offering to sell all 90acres with the house plot that their "subdivision" plans fell thru perhaps and would likely give you a deal on that extra lot to encourage you to buy the house lot. For the history it only looks like they have been trying to sell the property for a year but paying taxes on over 100acres might be killing their wallet. You could possibly get the house and the additional 11 acres for 350-365k but thats just a guess from looking at the history of the property.

The fourth property comes up as for sale too!
This one looks nice and lush as well for pasture, nice shades trees, already fenced. It does not state that there are any outbuildings with the property so i would check on that. Putting in a barn and running water and electric to it are not particularly cheap things to do....of course if your after an in ground pool thats not really cheap to put in either lol. The bones on this place look good for livestock but the existing structure doesnt appear to be there however it could be and simply not mentioned since it is an Owner listing.


On another note...have you seen this place??? It more then meets your housing needs at 2,800sqft, has the acerage at 29 acres, looks like it is already ag exempt given the tax assesment, also includes 3 sheds, a barn with stalls, and is fenced and cross fenced!! Honestly it seems like this place is ideal for what your looking for in a house and your livestock needs and it is cheaper then 3 of the 4 places you asked about while still having more acerage. The place is approx the same distance as house 3 from San Antonio as well.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...475,-97.68013,28.844072,-98.594742_rect/9_zm/


----------



## Baymule (Apr 6, 2017)

@Reindeermama we didn't know your Grandpa, Bart, but we knew his brother Ester. Ester Duff lived on the corner about a mile or two from my parents. Ester was like a father to my husband and would check on him every Monday to see if he needed bailed out of jail. He was quite the party animal. LOL-I didn't know him then.....funny how my husband and I passed so close to each other so many times over the years, but didn't meet. The Duffs are an old family in Polk County and were well respected.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 6, 2017)

This one is in Mico, my niece and her husband live there and work in S.A.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...21,-97.769394,29.322924,-99.142685_rect/9_zm/


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 6, 2017)

@misfitmorgan  Thanks again for your thoughts!  Yes, strangely, most of those places I posted sold or went off market in the past week!  I wasn't expecting that!

I did see that place you posted, and I have given it some thought.  In the end, I decided I don't want to live in a manufactured home.  We get some nasty weather, and it seems to me that when a storm comes though and there are casualties, the folks most likely to be injured or killed are either in a mobile home or a car.  I have considered whether we would want to buy a nice property with a mobile home and-- if the purchase price were right-- eventually build a home and use the mobile as a guest house.  Still haven't decided on whether that makes sense for us, though.

Check out this place.  I really don't know how to evaluate pastureland, but this place sure has a lot of spring growth!  Plus they're set up for animals.  Fences look pretty good, 2 ponds, water wells, and some other animal-friendly infrastructure.  What do you all think?
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6594-County-Road-401-Floresville-TX-78114/2094923460_zpid/

The only thing that would scare me about a place on so much acreage, though, is maintaining all that land.  (And fences, too, but for the sake of argument, let's say that place has nice, newish fences and I don't need to touch them until I get this farming thing under my belt a bit!)  Anyway, I think I would try to move animals quickly enough to keep the grass somewhere between a few inches from the ground and maturing & producing seeds?  How often would I need to mow?  Only if the grass gets too mature and starts going to seed?  Otherwise, I just let it go?  If the growth gets high in a paddock, can I cut it for hay?  (And how do you do that?!)  What about irrigating and fertilizing?  I want to follow an organic program, so ammend as needed at move-in and then just maintain?  Send the chickens in to scratch through the cow pies in the most recently grazed paddock, lightly harrow if I get some thatch build-up, seed if I want to establish something in particular?   Anything else I'm missing?  How often would I want to go through and check for toxic plants?  How would I irrigate the pastures?  Does one irrigate pastureland?  The land scares me!  



Baymule said:


> This one is in Mico, my niece and her husband live there and work in S.A.
> 
> https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...21,-97.769394,29.322924,-99.142685_rect/9_zm/



Mico is pretty!  Unfortunately, it's NW SA, and my husband works in NE SA...  The commute is a little dicey from there.  My husband more or less draws the line at 1 hr each way, and most parts of Mico are a tad outside that.  Also, that place is a bit over our price range.  I think we need to top out around $500k...  Goodness, though!  I wish that one were on the table!  It's gorgeous!


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 6, 2017)

Baymule said:


> @Reindeermama we didn't know your Grandpa, Bart, but we knew his brother Ester. Ester Duff lived on the corner about a mile or two from my parents. Ester was like a father to my husband and would check on him every Monday to see if he needed bailed out of jail. He was quite the party animal. LOL-I didn't know him then.....funny how my husband and I passed so close to each other so many times over the years, but didn't meet. The Duffs are an old family in Polk County and were well respected.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 6, 2017)

Oops hit wrong button. So much fun realizing what a small world it is. We probably all met at one time or another, and just never knew it.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 7, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> @misfitmorgan  Thanks again for your thoughts!  Yes, strangely, most of those places I posted sold or went off market in the past week!  I wasn't expecting that!
> 
> I did see that place you posted, and I have given it some thought.  In the end, I decided I don't want to live in a manufactured home.  We get some nasty weather, and it seems to me that when a storm comes though and there are casualties, the folks most likely to be injured or killed are either in a mobile home or a car.  I have considered whether we would want to buy a nice property with a mobile home and-- if the purchase price were right-- eventually build a home and use the mobile as a guest house.  Still haven't decided on whether that makes sense for us, though.
> 
> ...



The one i posted is a modular not a mobile but i know some people dont like those either. It seems to me like you want something more unique then plain vinyl siding...which i totally get lol.

That new place looks nice. The pasture looks good, it would be interesting to see how well it did in the summer heat though as it looks a little patchy. I looked at google maps for this property and the number 3 property from your other post. I would again say number 3 is better suited for year round pasture feeding desire if you got the additional 11 acres to the west of the house parcel which would give you just under 24 acres. The difference in the pasture land is that number 3 has many many trees/bushes/shrubs to provide shade for your livestock and the pasture grasses itself, this new acerage you asked about has some trees/bushes/shrubs in approx a little less then 1/3 of the acreage and they are more sparse then the number 3 place. If your wanting to make hay this new place would be better suited assuming the pasture didnt go crispy before hay cutting time. This new place does have more building for your money and being fenced and cross fenced is always good. If you go look at these properties to help decide between them make sure you check for water in the livestock buildings or really close by because lugging buckets of water gets really old really fast esp in summer when they drink a lot more water. You will also want to check for electric in these buildings because chores by flash light are also a really big pain and makes everything take longer. If the buildings dont have water/electric i would plan on getting it installed.

As far as making hay goes...it can be quite costly to start and learn. For equipment you need a tractor, mower/conditioner, hay rake, baler(round or square) and preferably a hay wagon though you could use a large heavy duty trailer behind a large truck too. You also need someone who is going to do the manual labor of loading and stacking square bales or a bale spear to move round bales. You also need a storage place/space, for square you need indoor storage and for rounds you can store outside but indoor is always better. You need to find out the right time of year to cut, how many cuts to expect, when to tell when your fields are "ripe" to cut, also when the hay is dry enough to be baled but not so dry it gets dusty quickly. Find out f you have blister beetles in that area and ways to test or prevent if possible them getting in your hay. You will also need to get twine or netting(round bales can use either, square only uses twine). Most Ag extensions have a moisture meter they loan out for testing hay bales. If you bale to early after cutting the hay will be to wet and heat up and may ignite(it happens a lot), if you bale to late after cutting you will make dusty hay. You also need to watch the weather and look for a long enough window for you to be able to cut, dry, rake, bale, load, and store with no rain. Here we look for a 3 day window but your in texas so probly can do it faster. We cut on day 1, rake/bale/load on day 2, and store on day 3. If it is a large field we will store some on day 2 as well so we can go back and load the wagon again but we do have 4 wagons. You may or may not choose to make hay, the equipment is not cheap and it can be a steep learning curve if you dont have anyone to show you the process.

As far as keeping the land managed depending on your fields it may be in your interested to let them mature and seed out for a few months or a season esp after your livestock has been thru that pasture and eaten it down to 3-4 inches as they will leave that lovely fertilizer behind. Repeating this process over many years will improve your soil and make it real soil instead of sand thus improving your pasture. To make good soil you need organic matter decomposing into the ground whether it is fetilizer, leaves, old hay, compost, dead grass thatch, etc. That is why mowing lawns makes then look nicer and thicker over the years, the gras clippings are adding organic matter to the soil over and over....this is assuming you long cut your grass otherwise it is likely crispy by july. Going out once or twice a year and mowing down a pasture you havnt used would be perfectly find i think.

Since it does get so hot in texas and you will have the extra space esp in the first few years it is reasonable to only let your livestock graze pasture down to 5-6 inches tall, this will give it the best chance of staying green and growing as much as possible. How fast you have to move your livestock thru depends on the size of each pasture, you will learn when it looks right to move them and fairly quickly.

Yes you can cut any pasture/paddock for hay if it gets really long. Going to seed once again is not a bad thing, thats letting your pasture improve itself for free. Your animals should be doing the fertilizing for you and with enough shade trees/bushes irrigation wouldnt be needed except in the hot hot parts of summer maybe. Mostly irrigation is needed when you have way to much livestock on to small of a pasture where the grass must grow very fast or turn to dirt...you shouldnt have that problem. These would typically be cattle operations, like the ones you see around with center pivots. If you look at google maps it seems to stay fairly green in that area and i doubt everyone uses irrigation on all of the fields.

You can take a soil sample and send it in for testing to see what your soil lacks and amend it as needed when you move in and then probably just check it every couples years. Here we are typically always lacking either nitrogen or lyme, you are probly different but after getting testing a few times over several years you will know when you need to amend, how much of what you need to add and can put it on a schedule. Something like year 1, 3, 5 we need to add 1 ton of lyme to pasture and year 2, 4, 6 we need to add 1/2ton of nitrogen to pasture...but yours probly will be completely different. Send in a sample from each different pasture and see what the results say, they will tell you what to add and in what amount. Legumes always take less nitrogen then grasses as well so that could affect what each pasture needs. This is also not hard though.

 Seed if you want some certain forage plant added yes, you can send in chicken anytime as they are good for getting rid of some of the yucky bugs. I believe most people check their fields twice a year for toxic plants assuming they do not have a known problem more often if they do and how often if they do depends on how fast that plant grows/spreads.

You hopefully wont need to irrigate your pastures if you do need to there are many ways to do it. You can use drip hoses you put out when livestock are not in the pasture. You can use impact/ratchet sprinklers(4 cover about an acre) we went cheap and bought the ones with lawn spikes on the bottom then zip tied them to t-posts to water our garden and then we hooked up the hoses to a water manifold and a water timer...labor free garden water in spades. Our garden is approx an acre+/-. You could get a sprayer to pull behind your tractor and set it to spray very heavy then drive around you pasture..this could get costly on gas but would work. Something like this:
http://www.grasshopperfertilizer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Crop-Sprayer.jpg
They make big big ones and small ones, self-propelled and tow behind. They are normally used to spray pesticides but we made a new cart on a hay wagon frame minus decking and swapped out the smaller tank for a 500 gallon tank to water row crops. You could of course get a pivot irrigation or normal crop irrigation but wow that is big big bucks and generally requires a dedicated deep well of its own.

Thatch isn't entirely bad on its own in smaller amounts either as it helps hold moisture in the ground for you. We let our thatch in the hay fields build up for about 5yrs at a time.

Honestly 90% of all of this is a once a year or less job, it is not hard to have good pasture land and not be out there daily/weekly maintaining it. We let our pasture grow 4 ft tall then turn the livestock out on it and they love it, in a couple weeks it is eaten down to about half a foot. Of course do not just let them out on new lush pasture like that without already coming off a previous lush pasture...when we do it we do it for a few hours and extend the time day by day until after about a week they are given 24hr access. We have never ever mowed our pasture and never would, we have never harrowed it, fertilized it, irrigated it, etc. You put up good fence once and it will last you 20-30yrs. Some of the fences around here that cattle farmers still use are from the 1930s with very very very minimal maintenance.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 7, 2017)

Wow, @misfitmorgan!  Once again, thanks a ton for the response!  Really appreciate it!  Only have a moment to post right now, but couple quick questions:

How can you tell that one you posted is modular vs mobile?  I can't really tell if that's a slab foundation under it or just nice skirting?  Although I guess it's a little lower to the ground than most skirting is?  Honestly, I'm fine with modular.  In fact, if we were to build a place, we'd probably go that route.

We actually went and viewed that "3rd one" that we were discussing...  Unfortunately, the house is right on a major highway with a speed limit of 70mph- definitely not good for the kiddos.  The fences need quite a bit of work, too, and the land certainly is lush!  So lush, in fact, that you can barely see the ground; it's all brush and trees-- at least, what's visible from the house is.  It looked like it would need considerable work.  The house is pretty nice, though, especially given its age.

And a more general question for anyone willing to chime in:  

These 2 properties are similar in acreage and are located within a couple miles of one another:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/6594-County-Road-401-Floresville-TX-78114/2094923460_zpid/
https://www.zillow.com/homes/2730-County-Road-232,-Floresville,-TX-78114_rb/

The first one has 2 ponds and 2 wells, a much older and smaller house, possibly lower quality pasture, a few fewer acres, and is priced nearly $100K higher.  The second one doesn't seem to have any wells or ponds.  Both claim to be fenced and cross fenced and have nice looking outbuildings.  Which of the two would you chose, and why?  I'm trying to get a feel for comparing one farm to another.

Seems to me that having multiple water sources-- especially here in TX-- would be a major plus.  My thinking is that a less awesome pasture could be renovated over time, but digging wells or building ponds would be considerably more work and expense.  Then again, the second property is nearly $100K less AND has a bigger and newer house.  So I dunno...?


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

LMK17, wells are expensive. Before we sold our cabin in Leakey, we checked into it. $17,000. There is also the pump house, filter system, and pump. I think you have some good options. I think the pecan orchard is a plus on the first one. Our friend has a small pecan orchard, and makes about $8000.00 off it per year. My friend who is a real estate agent says to take around 8 to 10 % off asking price for a first offer. That doesn't work if it is a highly sought after area. I would worry about the second one because it has been on the market for 196 days. Why so long on the market? I think Misfitmorgan can give you better advice on the pasture. My husband would choose the first one because of the stock tanks. The metal roof is a plus...Farm Bureau insurance gives you a discount of 20% for a metal roof. That house looks really solid too.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 8, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> Wow, @misfitmorgan!  Once again, thanks a ton for the response!  Really appreciate it!  Only have a moment to post right now, but couple quick questions:
> 
> How can you tell that one you posted is modular vs mobile?  I can't really tell if that's a slab foundation under it or just nice skirting?  Although I guess it's a little lower to the ground than most skirting is?  Honestly, I'm fine with modular.  In fact, if we were to build a place, we'd probably go that route.
> 
> ...



Your welcome 

The base of that house definitely looks like a foundation, it is to short(esp on the right) to have frame/wheel gear under it, as well as most mobile's do not come in 2,800sqft size with things like 2 living rooms. Single wides are limited to 16' wide and double wides are limited to 28' wide so even if it was a double wide it would need to be a 100' long trailer which they also don't make, they could have an addition on a mobile making it 2,800sqft but looking at google maps there is no addition that i can see. You can ask to make sure but i'm pretty sure that is just a modular house on a foundation/slab.

Honestly i would go look at both of them so you know what is there. Based on google maps that second "pond" looks like an old manure lagoon. The real estate agents or personal sellers rarely show you the whole picture either because they wanna sell it. There could be something really wrong with either of the places that we just cant see from pictures or google maps. The second place depending on how the parcel is cut may or may not have a pond on it..there are 2 ponds near where i "think" the property lines would be but i'm not sure...also depending on the property lines there may be a lack of trees on place 2 as well in the main pasture area. 

Seems to me for 100k more you could put in several wells or ponds and still get the place for less. I did like the sound of the pecan orchard but it is all a balance....income from pecans could be largely offset by the cost of supplementing forage as well as it looks like the less then 1/3 wooded area is the pecan orchard.



Reindeermama said:


> LMK17, wells are expensive. Before we sold our cabin in Leakey, we checked into it. $17,000. There is also the pump house, filter system, and pump. I think you have some good options. I think the pecan orchard is a plus on the first one. Our friend has a small pecan orchard, and makes about $8000.00 off it per year. My friend who is a real estate agent says to take around 8 to 10 % off asking price for a first offer. That doesn't work if it is a highly sought after area. I would worry about the second one because it has been on the market for 196 days. Why so long on the market? I think Misfitmorgan can give you better advice on the pasture. My husband would choose the first one because of the stock tanks. The metal roof is a plus...Farm Bureau insurance gives you a discount of 20% for a metal roof. That house looks really solid too.



Again i would assume the 100K difference would offset the cost of a second well or a pond. I think since it would be a livestock well there would be no pump house or filter system, here a livestock/garden well is a underground pump, well pipe(boot), and spigot on the top....thats it. If your taking 10% off that would make house one 404k and house two 324k so house two would only be 80k less 

As far as time on the market...who knows but only being promoted by the seller on sites like zillow isn't the best advertising as well as most people preferring to buy thru a real estate agent means there could be relatively little to nothing wrong with it. I definitely think the metal roof is a big plus on house one. Those stock tanks are super cheap....TSC 100gal $65 300gal $250.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

Okay, let me clarify Misfitmorgan. I am not talking about stock tanks like you are talking about stock tanks. To me, stock tanks are ponds. Also, since my husband and I currently have 4 properties, I do know what I am talking about. We do investment properties. My friend owes a real estate business. My uncle was an appraiser. He taught me quite a bit. Yes, both need to be looked at.

It is a mobile home on the second. As far as size of a mobile home, Palm Harbor makes what is called a triple wide. One of their largest triple wide runs 2952 sq. ft. Just so you know. How do I know it is a mobile home. It was listed on Realtor.com for $243,910. in 2009.  It had more pictures of the inside and outside. It was last sold in 2015. The mobile was added in 2003. It was 2356 sq. ft., so it has been added on apparently. The outbuildings are nice. This is the back of the home.




Most of the land in this area averages about $6000.00 an acre.(raw land, no improvements) Smaller pieces of land will cost more.

Regardless, when you buy a property with a well you need to have the water tested, have a foundation inspection, termite inspection, plumbing static test, and a good house inspection. Water tests are necessary because there can be arsenic, bacteria, and the salinity level needs to be taken in consideration. These can all be corrected with the right filters. This is for the well water you will be drinking and using to take baths in. My brother-in-law works in Austin at the TNRCC. That is why I know about water quality issues. On wells, it is usually $15. or $20. a foot to drill a well. The first one is on community water for the house, so you don't have to worry about a water quality test. Stock ponds usually cost $10,000 plus.

The most important thing LMK17 is you get a buyer's agent to represent your interests. Don't go through the seller's agent. The second one is being sold by the owner. You will need a lawyer for this one.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

2730 County Road 232, Floresville, TX 78114 is a mobile home built in 2003. This property was last sold for - in 2015

According to the Floresville public records, the property at 2730 County Road 232, Floresville, TX 78114 has approximately 2,356 square feet, with a lot size of 29.19 acres

County has land at $157,640, Improvements $60,940, Appraised $69,240,  This adds up to $287,830.00 I think the $69,240 is for the mobile home.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 8, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> Okay, let me clarify Misfitmorgan. I am not talking about stock tanks like you are talking about stock tanks. To me, stock tanks are ponds. Also, since my husband and I currently have 4 properties, I do know what I am talking about.



To us stock tanks are stock tanks since it is illegal in the entire state to water livestock with surface water or flowing water aka ponds, creeks, streams, rivers...etc. Not sure what the number of properties you own has to do with anything. as far as i know anyone with enough money or credit can buy as many properties they would like. I can go buy 10 acres of swamp for 5k but it has no bearing on the conversation here now does it. 



Reindeermama said:


> It is a mobile home on the second. How do I know it is a mobile home. It was listed on Realtor.com for $243,910. in 2009.



Good to know on the mobile homes i was going on the info i had in the one picture of the front of the house and what google earth showed. Triple wides do not exist here because of snow load laws. Now they dont have to bother looking at the place.



Reindeermama said:


> Regardless, when you buy a property with a well you need to have the water tested, have a foundation inspection, termite inspection, plumbing static test, and a good house inspection. Water tests are necessary because there can be arsenic, bacteria, and the salinity level needs to be taken in consideration. These can all be corrected with the right filters.



Here we do have normal home inspection but we do not test well water or any seperate inspections of that other stuff beyond a normal home inspection, our normal inspections include termite and foundation. 



Reindeermama said:


> This is for the well water you will be drinking and using to take baths in.



So as i said....they wouldnt need to have the well tested nor need a filter system, pump house, pressure tank etc for a livestock well.



Reindeermama said:


> Stock ponds usually cost $10,000 plus.



Here ponds cost 2-8k depending on size to pay someone else but people only put ponds in here to have something to look at since they cant water out of them and they put them in with their own or rented equipment.

So @LMK17 if you still dont wanna live in a mobile that just leaves the other place to go look at with the pecan orchard.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

If we were buying either one of these as an investment property, it would be the first one. I would offer $415,000. as a starting point after finding a real estate agent to represent me, depending on their opinion. The house is valued at $198,000 approximately. If the land is worth $156,000. that would $354,000. I am not including the value of wells, stock ponds, or outbuildings in this calculation. I would probably pay no more than $430,000. You will  need a  new survey, because the county records show 43 acres. I don't know exactly how they are dividing the acreage up. If you are interested in this one I mean. Just be patient, we looked for months before we found the one we wanted as our home, and not investment.

*Improvement #1:* RESIDENTIAL *State Code:* E1 *Living Area:* 2067.0 sqft *Value:* N/A
*Type* *Description* *Class CD* *Exterior Wall* *Year Built* *SQFT*
  MA MAIN AREA RV7 ST 1970 2067.0
  OP COVERED PORCH OR PATIO 7 1970 110.0
  OP COVERED PORCH OR PATIO 7 1970 273.0
  DG DETACHED GARAGE 3 1970 1350.0
  STG STORAGE BUILDING 4 1970 630.0
  GH GREEN HOUSE 1 1970 540.0
  METAL BLDG METAL BLDG PE1 0 1200.0
  STG STORAGE BUILDING 2 0 288.0
  METAL BLDG METAL BLDG STL1 0 225.0
  SHED STEEL SHED STEEL (MTL SIDING) OP1 0 675.0
*Improvement #2:* MISC FARM/RANCH IMPROVEMENTS *State Code:* D2 *Living Area:* sqft *Value:* N/A
*Type* *Description* *Class CD* *Exterior Wall* *Year Built* *SQFT*
  SHED STEEL SHED STEEL (MTL SIDING) OP1 1970 1800.0


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

Misfitmorgan, actually that second one at one time may have been a pig farm. lol So, it is very possible it could have been a manure lagoon. Here we test for everything. Foundation problems are big problem. Termites are too. The home inspectors here will tell you if they think you might have a plumbing or termite problem, but will not guarantee their inspection for these problems. So most people call in specialized inspectors. We test well water here, because there are problem areas in certain counties. For example, one place we bought has arsenic and high salinity. All taken care of with proper filtering. Also,  we can have rotten egg smelling water wells from sulfur in the water table. A lot of the stock ponds have to be lined if the pond is put in an area with sandy soil, because it won't hold otherwise. Didn't mean to sound mean. lol One county has radionuclides in the water table from uranium mining that took place in the 1950's.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 8, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> If we were buying either one of these as an investment property, it would be the first one. I would offer $415,000. as a starting point after finding a real estate agent to represent me, depending on their opinion. The house is valued at $198,000 approximately. If the land is worth $156,000. that would $354,000. I am not including the value of wells, stock ponds, or outbuildings in this calculation. I would probably pay no more than $430,000. You will  need a  new survey, because the county records show 43 acres. I don't know exactly how they are dividing the acreage up. If you are interested in this one I mean. Just be patient, we looked for months before we found the one we wanted as our home, and not investment.
> 
> *Improvement #1:* RESIDENTIAL *State Code:* E1 *Living Area:* 2067.0 sqft *Value:* N/A
> *Type* *Description* *Class CD* *Exterior Wall* *Year Built* *SQFT*
> ...



Wish we had a spiffy website like that one..all we have is the county tax site and it doesnt break down values like that.



Reindeermama said:


> Misfitmorgan, actually that second one at one time may have been a pig farm. lol So, it is very possible it could have been a manure lagoon. Here we test for everything. Foundation problems are big problem. Termites are too. The home inspectors here will tell you if they think you might have a plumbing or termite problem, but will not guarantee their inspection for these problems. So most people call in specialized inspectors. We test well water here, because there are problem areas in certain counties. For example, one place we bought has arsenic and high salinity. All taken care of with proper filtering. Also,  we can have rotten egg smelling water wells from sulfur in the water table. A lot of the stock ponds have to be lined if the pond is put in an area with sandy soil, because it won't hold otherwise. Didn't mean to sound mean. lol One county has radionuclides in the water table from uranium mining that took place in the 1950's.



It's ok 

We get sulfur here to and rust but no one really seems to care. We can get free water testing done thru our health department but most dont. Remind me never to move to the radionuclides county. Here by one part of the old air base they have to have some special filters on their wells and certain times of the year the county has to give them free potable water because they cant use their well water for drinking/eatting/showering.

We do get termites here but people still dont seem concerned about them for some reason...maybe because winter makes them hibernate?? no idea. No need to line our ponds because the water table is like 25ft from the ground service so it stays wet most places if you get down to 10ft the pond will fill itself. 

The biggest foundation issue we have is frost heave and it sucks!!


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

Actually with the right filters, you can actually filter out the radionuclides. Frost Heave sounds bad. Here the foundations will shift due to clay. It is called Black land farm. Termites, I guess stay active more year around here. We don't get snow much here or freezes. Do you have to fix the foundations with snow heave?
You can fix rust and sulfur with "wait for it" the right kind of filter.Here they call it a iron filter. It even filters out the smell.

We are doing a pond, and it will have to be lined with sodium bentonite, because the water will seep right out of it. The well on our property is at 375' depth. My husband said Holy Moses, they fill themselves. 
On another piece of property the water table is at 570'.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 8, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> I would worry about the second one because it has been on the market for 196 days. Why so long on the market?


And why so few pictures. And only 1 of the inside. If you have a house in decent shape you want at least 1 picture of each room. To me few inside pictures means "project house" and not even worth a look unless it is a spectacular price and you know going in you will likely need to gut and rebuild. That may not always be the case but anyone that is trying to sell a house needs to make people WANT to come look at it. 

With regard to time, effort, expense of maintaining fields there can be another option besides haying and baling yourself. If the area is truly ag, there are likely people around you can hire to hay the fields for you. They will also likely have the local knowledge as to when it should be done because they have been doing it for years. Our 4-5 acres of pasture were let go to weeds by the prior owners so it is not worth haying at the moment but I have a guy up the road mow it once usually around July, he decides based on his schedule. He hays his own property and some up and down the road. I bought hay from him for the 2 alpacas we got in October. I would LIKE to bring my fields back and have them hayed. Don't like the idea of former ag land just being a giant weed bed.


----------



## Reindeermama (Apr 8, 2017)

Exactly Bruce, that was why I was worried when LMK17 was considering this piece. I have looked at more than my fair share of properties, and when they only have pictures of the outside that is always a red flag. Another thing that worried me was it had been sold I think 4 or 5 times since 2003. That is also one of those red flags.

When we sold our investment property, it was pictures, pictures, and more pictures. We just sold 2 investment properties so we could afford our dream farm. It took less than 3 weeks on the market to sell them both. Pictures Galore by our real estate agent. lol, she split the it into three listings, one with the cabin, and one without improvements, and then one with the cabin and 11 acres. That way if someone couldn't afford the cabin and 11 acres, they might could the cabin and 5.5 acres. Then the other 5.5 acres was sold as unimproved land.

 One of our pastures is native grasses. One is coastal hay. Usually here you have someone cut your hay and bale it, and they take some many bales in exchange. I don't know how it works elsewhere. In our county in Texas, I don't know about all of them, you have to have 20 acres to get an ag exemption for taxes.
I am lucky my other brother-in-law is a agriculture professor at A & M University at College Station, and my other brother-in-law works in Austin for TNRCC(water-Texas Natural Resource Conservation). They are very sweet to me when I call with a question. Our land is divided into 3 pastures. I am still learning, and asking lots of questions. My husband knows a lot already, since his Grandpa had a 100 acre ranch, and he spent his summers up there.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 9, 2017)

Great @Reindeermama, now we all know who to ask questions of! You don't have to tell the BILs that they aren't YOUR questions


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 9, 2017)

Thanks again, everyone!  

Haymaking does sound like potentially more trouble than it's worth!  I've been researching rotational grazing and pasture management, and one practice that has caught my eye is stockpiling forage for use when the grass isn't growing, instead of feeding cut hay.  Anyone around here familiar with doing that?

I do feel a bit better now about managing acres of land, though!  In looking at @misfitmorgan 's description of maintaining and improving pastures, I realized that's essentially what I've been doing for years with my yard, only on a larger scale!  I'm already quite familiar with cutting the grass high and improving the soils over time.  In fact, not that it's going to go too far on a multiacre place, but I've been planning all along to pack up my finished compost and compost pile and cart them to our new farm!  LOL   

Let's assume I have 6 head of cattle (maybe 5 stockers + 1 family milk cow) and a couple large donkeys.  Any ballpark estimates how much hay I would need to feed them for the winter?  We do have mild winters, of course, and if I seeded in some cool season grasses, I could probably have grass growing nearly year-round. 



Reindeermama said:


> Okay, let me clarify Misfitmorgan. I am not talking about stock tanks like you are talking about stock tanks. To me, stock tanks are ponds.
> 
> Regardless, when you buy a property with a well you need to have the water tested, have a foundation inspection, termite inspection, plumbing static test, and a good house inspection. Water tests are necessary because there can be arsenic, bacteria, and the salinity level needs to be taken in consideration. These can all be corrected with the right filters. This is for the well water you will be drinking and using to take baths in. My brother-in-law works in Austin at the TNRCC. That is why I know about water quality issues. On wells, it is usually $15. or $20. a foot to drill a well. The first one is on community water for the house, so you don't have to worry about a water quality test. Stock ponds usually cost $10,000 plus.



LOL About the stock pond vs tank!  The TX ranching jargon threw me for a loop for a little while, too.  First, our friends who ranch talked about a stock tank on their property, and I was surprised to see that it was what I would call a pond.  Then I heard about stock tanks being sold at stores for like $50, and you can imagine how confusing that was to me!  LOL  After awhile, I settled on calling things "stock tanks" (a big water bucket, basically) and "stock ponds."  If it's just a surface water feature and not used for watering livestock, then I just call it a pond.  Ha! 

Speaking of ponds, I've kinda added them to my list of really want to haves on our new place.  Not only do I like the idea of having extra water for the animals, but I have a vision of stocking the pond with fish and adding some ducks and geese, too.  Can you imagine how much fun the kids would have with that!  The majority of the houses we've seen have community water, and the well/pond is only for animals and irrigation.  Still, I would probably want to have the wells tested, right?  I mean, if there is arsenic in the water, I probably don't want the cattle drinking from it!  And it the salinity is high, I don't want to irrigate with that.  Whom should I contact about testing the wells, when the time comes?  Is that something the local Ag Extension would do?



Reindeermama said:


> Misfitmorgan, actually that second one at one time may have been a pig farm. lol So, it is very possible it could have been a manure lagoon. Here we test for everything. Foundation problems are big problem. Termites are too. The home inspectors here will tell you if they think you might have a plumbing or termite problem, but will not guarantee their inspection for these problems. So most people call in specialized inspectors. We test well water here, because there are problem areas in certain counties. For example, one place we bought has arsenic and high salinity. All taken care of with proper filtering. Also,  we can have rotten egg smelling water wells from sulfur in the water table. A lot of the stock ponds have to be lined if the pond is put in an area with sandy soil, because it won't hold otherwise. Didn't mean to sound mean. lol One county has radionuclides in the water table from uranium mining that took place in the 1950's.



Where did you see that it might've been a pig farm?  I've seen the county tax sites (and those are nice!), but I haven't seen much about any property that really indicated what it might've been used for in the past.

Since we're on the topic of ponds, what if the pond on a property is a manure lagoon?  Can it be treated and restored to "stock pond" status?  Would it be TNRCC who could help with restoring old ponds?

We have a great home inspector, and we've been testing for everything, too.  We actually offered on a place back in Feb, and we dropped the offer once our inspector found a slew of issues with it.  That house was a '78.  I feel kinda burned by that one, and it makes me hesitant to seriously consider the 1970 house on that one property I posted.  The land does look really nice, though... 

Something we never got around to doing with the property that fell through is any sort of ecological testing of the soil, though for a farm, I feel it would be important to know if there is anything "off" lurking in the soil!  Should we consider some sort of soil tests?  And whom would we hire for that?

Heh.  The longer we look at properties, the more questions I think of!  Maybe it's a good thing that the search is taking us a little while!


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 9, 2017)

Bruce said:


> And why so few pictures. And only 1 of the inside. If you have a house in decent shape you want at least 1 picture of each room. To me few inside pictures means "project house"...
> 
> With regard to time, effort, expense of maintaining fields there can be another option besides haying and baling yourself. If the area is truly ag, there are likely people around you can hire to hay the fields for you. They will also likely have the local knowledge as to when it should be done because they have been doing it for years. Our 4-5 acres of pasture were let go to weeds by the prior owners so it is not worth haying at the moment but I have a guy up the road mow it once usually around July, he decides based on his schedule. He hays his own property and some up and down the road. I bought hay from him for the 2 alpacas we got in October. I would LIKE to bring my fields back and have them hayed. Don't like the idea of former ag land just being a giant weed bed.





Reindeermama said:


> Exactly Bruce, that was why I was worried when LMK17 was considering this piece. I have looked at more than my fair share of properties, and when they only have pictures of the outside that is always a red flag. Another thing that worried me was it had been sold I think 4 or 5 times since 2003. That is also one of those red flags.
> 
> I am lucky my other brother-in-law is a agriculture professor at A & M University at College Station, and my other brother-in-law works in Austin for TNRCC(water-Texas Natural Resource Conservation). They are very sweet to me when I call with a question. Our land is divided into 3 pastures. I am still learning, and asking lots of questions. My husband knows a lot already, since his Grandpa had a 100 acre ranch, and he spent his summers up there.



LOL!  Give me some credit, y'all!  I might have a lot of questions about buying a farm, but I wasn't born yesterday.  

So, just to clarify, I was considering the property with the mobile home for about 10 seconds.  Right after I posted about it, I called the owner up.  So I have known that it's a mobile (and also has some issues not obvious in the listing, which the owner was kind/honest enough to discuss with me) for a couple days now.  Still, what I posted was true-- Both that one and the 1970 stone house/property have some features I'm interested in, and I am curious about how to compare one property to another.  So the discussion of which one other folks would choose and all is very relevant from an "academic" standpoint. 

I also know to be leery of anything with few photos, or of places that have been on the market foorreevver or have been bought and sold over and over.  Plus, we do have a good real estate agent we've been working with for the past couple months.     But thank you all for your concern!

@Reindeermama  How great for you to have your BILs working in such relevant fields!  You've got an in! I'm jealous.  

Good idea about hiring someone to cut the hay.  Seems to me I'll do well to make friends with as many of the neighbors as possible!  

Anyone here cut hay by hand?  I mean just a small hayfield, of course.  Maybe 1 acre or so.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 9, 2017)

I have 3 horses and they go through a BIG round bale about every 2-3 weeks. I have 5 ewes, 1 ram and a few lambs and they go through 1 round bale a month. Maybe that will help you figure how much hay you would need with cows. You can plant winter rye grass in the fall and have good winter pasture, but still give access to free choice hay.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 10, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> Actually with the right filters, you can actually filter out the radionuclides. Frost Heave sounds bad. Here the foundations will shift due to clay. It is called Black land farm. Termites, I guess stay active more year around here. We don't get snow much here or freezes. Do you have to fix the foundations with snow heave?
> You can fix rust and sulfur with "wait for it" the right kind of filter.Here they call it a iron filter. It even filters out the smell.
> 
> We are doing a pond, and it will have to be lined with sodium bentonite, because the water will seep right out of it. The well on our property is at 375' depth. My husband said Holy Moses, they fill themselves.
> On another piece of property the water table is at 570'.



 I'm sure you could, but honestly most people here don't seem to care if they have rust water or sulfur. My sister is an exception she has a water softener and a treatment "center" put in to get rid of the rust in her house and it doesnt work...for whatever she got installed. 

Frost heave is horrible, the foundations are fixable but so not cheap. Most houses here are built with "michigan" basements which really is a crawl space but they are high crawl spaces about 5' tall between the joists which is so the foundation is under the frost heave line. We pretty much never build a house on a slab and any building that goes on a slab needs to be at least 6" thick and have rebar and preferably a knee wall. Frost heave here can pick up entire buildings if you dont build right. It is just kind of something we are used to though and is particularly bad on properties with high clay percentages.  
The place we are on now is literally pure clay 6inches down and this is an example of what frost heave can do.



 



LMK17 said:


> Thanks again, everyone!
> 
> Haymaking does sound like potentially more trouble than it's worth!  I've been researching rotational grazing and pasture management, and one practice that has caught my eye is stockpiling forage for use when the grass isn't growing, instead of feeding cut hay.  Anyone around here familiar with doing that?
> 
> ...



They use that stockpiling technique up here on some smaller cow operations and it does work well from the reports. The cows dig thru the snow on each strip of new stockpiled field and eat the grasses underneath. From what i have seen they take a pasture and divide it into strips(mentally) and then every day(or as often as needed) they move a portable fence with step in posts to the next strip section. Most have a set number of posts along the outside fence that they use, such as everyday they may move their step in posts down 4 fenceposts. I hope that makes sense.

For the cows...cows(1200lbs) require 24 pounds of average hay per day but that is dry matter not actual hay weight to figure out the actual hay weight you need to know the percentage of dry matter in the hay so if it is say 80% dry matter it is 24/.80=30...so they would need 30lbs a day per head of that 80% dry matter hay. To find the dry matter you can either buy tested hay or have it tested. These numbers change based on overall hay quality as well but generally 24lbs with a 10lb overage per head per day will set you up alright. I don't know much of anything about the mechanics of testing hay as we dont test hay because we always have way more then we need because we make hay and DH has been making hay since he could walk so we dont need a moisture meter either. So i'm thinking 170lbs/day for 5 cows sounds like if should cover you but @farmerjan would know more i'm sure. She runs a cattle operation in a hotter region then i do.

Aside from rye grass, oats do fantastic in cool/cold weather and you can broadcast plant them by hand if needed. Tall fescue and white clover are good for cool weather and do well on sandy soil. Tall fescue is also a THE forage for stockpiling. I did say tall fescue and white clover meaning they need to be planted together.

Also if you want the best use of fertilizer on your place after getting soil tests done spread 60% of the fertilizer in the fall and the other 30% in the spring. My sister and her DH  changed to doing this method after being suggested to by the small farmers conference and eastern star. On their wheat fields they were getting 40 bushels/acre and the season they switched they got 100 bushels/acre...typical production for our area is 30 bushels/acre.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 10, 2017)

So, saw something odd at a property and am wondering what you guys might be able to make of it. 

Off the back corner of one property we looked at is in unusual plot of land.  Confirmed that it doesn't belong to the place we were viewing, and when we asked about it, the owners wouldn't give us any info on it other than "They're no relation of ours."   Makes me wonder whether they've had problems with these other folks and don't want to say.  

Anywho... It's a plot maybe 1-2 acres.  The grass is grown up tall, but you can see a little trail of broken over plants where someone has come on and off the place from the road.  Nothing seems to be there other than:  a shipping container (like the ones they put on flatbed railroad cars); 3 junked cars with plants growing through them; an old, tall metal structure (like an old communications tower, maybe? or something related to oil drilling?); and a port-a-potty.  My best guess is it's being used as some sort of camp?  This ring a bell to anyone?  What on earth could it be?


----------



## norseofcourse (Apr 10, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> So, saw something odd at a property and am wondering what you guys might be able to make of it.
> 
> Off the back corner of one property we looked at is in unusual plot of land.  Confirmed that it doesn't belong to the place we were viewing, and when we asked about it, the owners wouldn't give us any info on it other than "They're no relation of ours."   Makes me wonder whether they've had problems with these other folks and don't want to say.
> 
> Anywho... It's a plot maybe 1-2 acres.  The grass is grown up tall, but you can see a little trail of broken over plants where someone has come on and off the place from the road.  Nothing seems to be there other than:  a shipping container (like the ones they put on flatbed railroad cars); 3 junked cars with plants growing through them; an old, tall metal structure (like an old communications tower, maybe? or something related to oil drilling?); and a port-a-potty.  My best guess is it's being used as some sort of camp?  This ring a bell to anyone?  What on earth could it be?


That would make me a bit nervous, unless you knew more.

Man cave?
Weekend hangout?
Hideout?  

Can you find out who owns that property (here, anyone can look up county property tax records), and run their name through a search of the local court system?


----------



## Baymule (Apr 10, 2017)

Squatters? Meth heads? Sounds like the armpit of the neighborhood, for sure. Doesn't sound like anything or anyone I'd want up against my fence.


----------



## farmerjan (Apr 11, 2017)

I don't know about the winter weather conditions there.   Here in Va, we run a cow/calf operation.  In the winter, meaning below freezing nights maybe 40's days;  we figure about 1 roll per 20 head per day. We call the head per day as the cows, since the calves will be young and not eating a significant amount a day for several months.  We put up our own round bales and they average 1000 to 1200 lbs per roll; size is a 5x5 or 5x6 ( which is feet so 5 ft wide by 5 ft tall).  Depending on the type of hay the lbs will vary but for round figures figure 1000 lbs.
  So that is 50 lbs hay per day per cow/calf pair.  I am talking about a fall born calf say oct/nov, so it is about 150-300 lbs through feb.  That's about a 1000 lb cow, lactating with her 250 lb calf avg on her.  The calf will start eating a little bit of hay from a couple of weeks on but won't be consuming more than a lb or 2 a day until 4+ months old.
You cannot skimp on hay in the colder weather.  A mature cow will eat approx 1/20th of her weight a day in hay, in the cold weather. Our dry cows that will be calving in the spring, will eat a little less, but they are also in late gestation so are putting the weight/size on the fetus so will also be eating a significant amount.  About 35-45 lbs per cow per day.  
A dairy cow is going to eat as much or more since she will also be producing more milk than a single calf will need.  Plus, they do not have the back fat and have a higher metabolism so will actually burn up more calories and require more hay or a combination of hay and grain.  They need a higher protein feed to meet the demands of their body.  On a dairy, where they are pushing for milk production, it is nothing for a cow to eat 80lbs or more of hay/silage/mix with added grain. PER DAY.
Too many people do not feed their cows enough hay and their body condition falls off and they are thin come spring.

If you are thinking 5 beef animals and a dairy animal, you need to figure that you will be feeding  at least 1 round bale every 4-5 days.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 11, 2017)

Baymule said:


> ...You can plant winter rye grass in the fall and have good winter pasture, but still give access to free choice hay.



I'm confused.  If I have "good" winter pasture, why would I also want to offer hay?



farmerjan said:


> I don't know about the winter weather conditions there.   Here in Va, we run a cow/calf operation.  In the winter, meaning below freezing nights maybe 40's days;  we figure about 1 roll per 20 head per day....  If you are thinking 5 beef animals and a dairy animal, you need to figure that you will be feeding  at least 1 round bale every 4-5 days.



Thanks for the tips!  Honestly, if I were to consider "winter" to be, as you said, days in the 40s and nights below 32, then I might have about 3 weeks of "winter," tops.  A frost is a fairly unusual thing here.  For reference, I keep cruciferous veggies growing all winter without frost protection, and it's looking like this is the 2nd year in a row that my 'Santa Rosa' plum won't produce due to (I believe) a lack of chill hours... Sounds like I could invest in 4-5 round bales, and that might be able to keep the cattle through the winter.  It'll be trail and error at first, of course, but I think it's reasonable given our mild weather.  WDYT?

Regarding the "eyesore" property I mentioned:  It's definitely a big black eye for the neighboring property, which I actually really like otherwise.  And now I'm really nervous about it, with you all suggesting it's a meth house!  LOL  Honestly, though, I don't *think* anyone is trying to hide out in it.  If they are, they're hiding in plain sight.  I'd be extra worried if I had found this place back in the woods, but it's just off the road and is totally visible from the road.  I highly suspect it's someone's hunting camp.  There are several businesses in the area that rent rustic little cabins to hunters, and I'm guessing the shipping container may be being used as a cabin for someone who comes down and hunts on nearby properties.  (Maybe something like this:  http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...cabin-shipping-container-big-horn-spokane.JPG)  Doesn't explain the junk sitting around, though.    This is just a guess, of course.   And I've only seen the one side of the container, so I don't know whether there are any doors cut into the other side or anything.  If we get serious about the property, it would merit a drive around to look.  In the meanwhile, I've asked our real estate agent to find out what she can about it.  I don't think I can look up property records for it.  I tried, but it seems like maybe the little tract is part of a larger one; it doesn't seem to have its own address.  Could also just be the neighbor's dumping ground on his larger property.  We saw one other property with a couple shipping containers just plopped in the middle of a field; the guy was using them for overflow storage.  But then, that doesn't explain the port-a-john.  I dunno!

To a degree, I've just resigned myself to having to accept eyesore neighboring properties in the county.  The whole "no HOA" thing goes both ways, and this is definitely not the first time we've liked a property that had something unattractive next to it.  How do you all feel about "eyesore" properties being next door to you?  It's funny; back home in PA, I never would've worried about ugly stuff next to our house.  It was just part and parcel of living in the county.  I guess a decade in the suburbs has changed me!


----------



## farmerjan (Apr 11, 2017)

Since your winter is really very little winter, then thinking 4-6 round bales might very well do it for you.  Good winter pasture does not get established overnight, and there are so many factors going into it that honestly, as a fairly "newbie" you are as apt to not have very good winter pasture and not "manage it" optimally until you get a little experience of actually doing it.  Plus, any growth of rye, wheat, barley, or other "crops" for winter grazing will not have a balanced amount of dry matter and the cows need what we call "long hay" or more bulky dry matter for their rumen to function properly.  It really takes some doing it, and believe me, we still attend seminars regularly to learn and "tweek" our grazing practices.  If the weather is real dry, the winter forage crops may not germinate well, if it is too wet they will be "mostly water" and the cows will not be able to eat enough to supply all their needs due to the high moisture content.
Plus the protein content will not support a growing animal and balancing the minerals is essential if you don't want to lose any due to  bloat, or low magnesium in the grasses.  Hay is somewhat safer as you learn what they need and can utilize, and incorporate the pastures into the feeding program.

One thing a very advanced "grazer" said at a conference a year or so ago; when we did pasture walks and were learning what he has done to get the optimal use and growth of the grass and ultimately the animals;  " first thing is have a barn full of hay before you even try to allocate sections for grazing, and then you can afford to make some mistakes and be able to learn from them.  Starving cows, or animals that are not gaining and growing, or dead ones, won't teach you a thing if you don't have a fall back program."  We have taken to heart what he said.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 11, 2017)

Well said!


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 13, 2017)

@farmerjan  That makes perfect sense!  Thanks for your explanation!  One more newbie question:  Given the choice between "good" grass and hay, which do cows tend to prefer?   If I offer free choice hay in addition to pasture, what are the chances the cows will ignore the grass in favor of the hay?  Or is that just a silly question?   

So this, has been a long and meandering thread, but it did help me answer my original question:  DH and I have decided to focus our search on ~20 acre tracts.  So, thanks!  

Now if only we could find our dream place...


----------



## farmerjan (Apr 14, 2017)

If the grass is green and growing, unless it it fescue which tends to be bitter until after a frost, they will eat the grass every time.  We are seeing some real greening here, a little early for us but the temps have been in the 70's , and the cows are trying to eat every little blade they can find and not wanting the hay.  The good thing is they are still hungry since the grass isn't keeping up with them yet, so they will go back to the hay after a couple of hours of picking.  

If it is in your price range, more land is better every time.  You can always sell off a piece if you need to and you don't have to  develop or graze or fence the whole thing.  A buffer zone around your place is a good way to have some privacy.


----------



## Bossroo (Apr 14, 2017)

If you buy more land than you want and then decide to sell what you don't need.  You are definately limited in the ability to do so due to the zoning of the land by the powers that be for the size of the parcel for that particular area.  I have tried to subdivide our 19.5 +/- acres (there is a one acre subdivision of 18 parcels just a mile away )  for 20 years with NO luck whatsoever.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 14, 2017)

I left some comments regarding mineral rights and ag exemptions in your post at "Where am I-Where are you?"
https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/texas.6/page-16

Where to start?...

Hay requirement for cattle in South Texas. (San Antonio is considered South Texas)
I live about 1 full degree north of SA latitude, but we get more rainfall than you do. This last winter was almost non-existent. I still fed six one thousand lb round bales per adult cow here, beginning in November. Rule of thumb here is one roll of hay per adult  cow per month...or 27-30 lbs per animal per day. There no such thing as 'stockpiling' grass here in this part of Texas. Once the first hard frost or freeze comes, the grass is gone, no matter how lush it was in spring or summer. Bahia, coastal, jiggs, tifton, common bermuda--it's all dead when the season changes and you won't see it green and growing again until March at the earliest. 
Late Oct-mid Nov, yo can over seed your pasture with annual ryegrass at the rate of about 20 lbs/acre. No tilling or plowing needed--it just needs contact with the ground and rainfall within 1-2 weeks, then more rain about 2 weeks later and periodically thru the winter. It's a winter grass and will really grow good after the 1st of Feb thru spring, till the regular grass starts to push it out. A 200 lb protein lick tub on a little handfull of cows will probably last a month--maybe 45 days. A bucket of cake once/week will give them some protein and keep them coming to you too.
Good hay last year was $50-65/bale.
200lb Wind & Rain protein tub ran $95 locally.
A 50 lb sack of cake (range cubes) is around $9.
You can also supplement with range meal. It's cottonseed meal with salt mixed in as a limiter--salt keeps them from wolfing it all down at one feeding. I don't remember how much it is..I buy it by the ton.

I think, as someone else said, that you are worrying too much about maintenance and upkeep of pastures. Once fencing is done, it's pretty easy, even for an old man like me. Cows pretty much take care of themselves after calving season is done.
Mob intensive or rotational grazing does have benefits, but is very labor intensive and requires each paddock have a water supply. I leave my Chars year round on the big pastures and rotate the beefmasters back and forth across three 5-7 acre pastures as needed. (I have natural water sources everywhere)

My well (drilled in 2009) cost me $5200 to a depth of about 200'--good water and plenty of it. Turnkey, wired and piped to the house.
Wastewater treatment plant (aerobic) was right at $5800.
You, are in "the country of 1100 springs"..limestone country on 2 aquifers.  They may have to go deep to keep your water lime free.

Personally, I would not start with less than 20 acres, even if it meant buying less house.

Reindeermama:
I did some radiation site remediation a little SW of Karnes City back in the late 80s early 90s. Background (natural) radiation there is 4x state average. That region is all part of the Karnes Uranium District. There was still a uranium tailings impoundment there at the time.  Lots of Uranium in Karnes, Goliad, Zapata and Starr counties.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 15, 2017)

Dang it!  We thought we had found our new place.  We even made an offer on it.  Unfortunately, the owner won't take a penny less than asking price, and our realtor is certain it's priced about $25K too high.    Puts us in a bit of an conundrum.  I love the land.  Looks like good grazing, some scattered trees, a pond, and really solid looking fences and cross fences.  The house, though, is about 50 years old.  There's really nothing wrong with it.  It actually looks like it has great bones and is well maintained, but we'd need to do a few things to make it work for us, such as putting up a wall to create a 3rd bedroom.  And-- this is really picky of me-- there isn't a bathtub in the place, only shower stalls, and with little kids, I'd really like to have a tub.  (DD loves nothing more than playing with her toy animals in the tub until the water turns cold.  Kinda hate to take that little pleasure from her.)  So by the time we put up a wall & reroute electrical for a bedroom and put in a tub, if we overpay by $25K to begin with, the house is going to be quite overpriced, and it'll still be a 50 year old place with 50 year old plumbing and electrical.    But the land is GREAT and the mineral rights are still attached and potentially would convey.  Bah.  We're just going to sit tight for now and look at other options, such as building; maybe we'll come back to this one later.  I do hate to pass up a really good property over $25K...  I think we could build quite a nice place with our budget, but it's a lot more time and energy than just buying an existing farm...  WWYD?  



farmerjan said:


> If the grass is green and growing, unless it it fescue which tends to be bitter until after a frost, they will eat the grass every time...
> 
> If it is in your price range, more land is better every time.  You can always sell off a piece if you need to and you don't have to  develop or graze or fence the whole thing.  A buffer zone around your place is a good way to have some privacy.



Good to know about the grass vs hay.  Thanks!



Bossroo said:


> If you buy more land than you want and then decide to sell what you don't need.  You are definately limited in the ability to do so due to the zoning of the land by the powers that be for the size of the parcel for that particular area.  I have tried to subdivide our 19.5 +/- acres (there is a one acre subdivision of 18 parcels just a mile away )  for 20 years with NO luck whatsoever.



Well, with land prices being what they are around here, probably buying too much is moot.  We just aren't budgeted for more than we think we'll reasonably need.  And though I do agree with those who say extra land is nice as a buffer, I would also worry, as you mentioned, that selling might not be as easy a prospect as it seems.  At this point, we're looking at properties from about 15 acres-30 acres.  I'd say 20-25 would be right on the mark.  



greybeard said:


> I live about 1 full degree north of SA latitude, but we get more rainfall than you do. This last winter was almost non-existent. I still fed six one thousand lb round bales per adult cow here, beginning in November. Rule of thumb here is one roll of hay per adult  cow per month...
> 
> Late Oct-mid Nov, yo can over seed your pasture with annual ryegrass at the rate of about 20 lbs/acre. No tilling or plowing needed--it just needs contact with the ground and rainfall within 1-2 weeks, then more rain about 2 weeks later and periodically thru the winter. It's a winter grass and will really grow good after the 1st of Feb thru spring, till the regular grass starts to push it out...
> 
> ...



Interesting about your winter hay requirements!  I know some folks with cattle here, and I know for a fact they're not feeding anywhere near that much hay in the winter...  I wonder what the difference could be?  The little ranch I know most about is south of SA.  The guy runs about 6-8 head of Angus cattle, 100% grass fed, year round on about 35 acres.  He's very hands-off with the animals and doesn't even live on site.  He has natural water features and checks on the cattle once a week or so.  I know he goes through fewer than 10 round bales a year.  I think it's more like 5 bales.  I'm not good judge of cattle condition, but I've seen his animals in early spring, and they appear to be OK.    And they taste good.  LOL  I'm not doubting what you've said in the least.  I just wonder why the big discrepancy?

Ryegrass does do great here!  I've used it with very good results in my lawn.  However, I did notice that the bermuda grass seemed not to do as well the spring/summer following overseeding with rye, and some research suggested that the rye can inhibit bermuda growth.  (I've got mostly Sahara Bermuda in my backyard, and it's already at a disadvantage due to lots of leaf cover from trees.)  I believe it's perennial rye more than the annual rye that is supposed to negatively affect warm season grasses.  I wonder whether it would be a good idea to overseed a pasture with rye if I've got a summer stand of coastal bermuda...?

I hope I am overly concerned about pasture management!  Anyway, it wouldn't be the first time that I've overthought something...   I do realize that cattle can essentially take care of themselves, but I'm interested in maintaining as high a quality pasture as possible, and that seems like it may be more difficult to do with continuous grazing.  From a more practical standpoint, if we get a piece of property that's a bit smaller than ideal, I would probably need to do rotational grazing in order maintain the stocking density required for the ag exemption.  I could just let the exemption go, but there would be definite financial considerations with doing that.

And thanks for the pricing info!  That's quite useful.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 15, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> Interesting about your winter hay requirements! I know some folks with cattle here, and I know for a fact they're not feeding anywhere near that much hay in the winter... I wonder what the difference could be?


That is hard to say. Could be the maternal condition..whether they have calves sucking in winter or not--open or growing a calf. I try to have calves weaned and sold by winter but not always. There's a big difference in E. Texas climate and South Texas/hill country climate. Once I start feeding hay, I never let them run out, not even for a day.  I can't afford them to lose conditioning and for the yearlings, I want them to gain thru the winter too. Regardless of location tho, each mature animal needs about 28 lbs of dry matter per day--more when a wet cold front comes thru. They can handle lots of cold and lots of rain but not much of both combined. East Texas winters are wet. Wet hides with wind even at 45deg F is hard on them and ups their energy requirements.


----------



## Bruce (Apr 15, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> Unfortunately, the owner won't take a penny less than asking price, and our realtor is certain it's priced about $25K too high.


Yet  They may find someone to overpay but if not, the price will come down.


----------



## Bossroo (Apr 16, 2017)

If you are really interested in this property,  you can get an indipendant appraiser to appraise the property  ,  present the results to the seller if lower value and stick with what you are willing to pay.  Unless you are paying cash,  the lender will have the property appraised and if the value is enough to cover the loan, they will lend you the money , if not  NO SALE .


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 17, 2017)

greybeard said:


> That is hard to say. Could be the maternal condition..whether they have calves sucking in winter or not--open or growing a calf. I try to have calves weaned and sold by winter but not always. There's a big difference in E. Texas climate and South Texas/hill country climate. Once I start feeding hay, I never let them run out, not even for a day.  I can't afford them to lose conditioning and for the yearlings, I want them to gain thru the winter too. Regardless of location tho, each mature animal needs about 28 lbs of dry matter per day--more when a wet cold front comes thru. They can handle lots of cold and lots of rain but not much of both combined. East Texas winters are wet. Wet hides with wind even at 45deg F is hard on them and ups their energy requirements.



I'll bet that's it.  Our friend is running stockers that's he's growing out to market weight, so he doesn't typically have any nursing mamas.  He did get a few calves last year, though, when a neighbor's bull got to some of his heifers.  I'll have to ask how his hay consumption might've changed while the cows were pregnant or had calves on them.  Our winter tends to be pretty dry, too.  We lived in Houston for a little while, and it was much wetter there.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 25, 2017)

Wahoo!  We found the perfect farm!!  

I mean, this place is GREAT!  It's a working, diversified organic farm.  The house is fabulous, the land is lovely, it's a great size for us, and it is PRODUCTIVE.  It's amazing what they've managed to support on fairly small acreage.  My entire family is in love with the place and the owners seem like really great, above-board folks.  I'm walkin' on clouds over here. 

Here's the downside.  They accepted our offer, and we're prequalified for a VA loan.  We qualify for well over the agreed upon price, in fact.  No problems there.  BUT the gentleman who owns the place informed us today that he spoke with some mortgage people and they told him that a Texas Ag Exempt property won't qualify for either a VA or a Conventional Loan-- something about banks wanting to give loans for *just* the property and not bother with the ag exemption.  In fact, he's concerned that going the VA or Conventional route would require him and his wife to pay the roll back tax on their place, even though they've been actively farming for several years.    We're going the For Sale By Owner route, and we don't have a real estate agent anymore.  (Amazingly, we found this place the same day we fired our realtor.)  We'll involved an attorney a bit further down the road, but we were supposed to meet today to sign the contract, and that didn't get done over these concerns about mortgages and roll back taxes.    The owner says we might have to go for a farm loan and that those will require 20% down.  We *could* scrape together that kind of money, but it would be tough, and we were planning on more like 5% down.

I'm going to call our bank and also the tax Appraisal District first thing tomorrow, but this is surprising news to us, to say the least!  Anyone ever heard of any of this?  I know the VA specifically allows the purchase of a farm, if the owner will live on the premises...  And I can't imagine that everyone who buys farmland in TX has 20% to put down!


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 25, 2017)

According to this appraiser website it is for equity loans only unless they are diary production.
https://appraisersforum.com/forums/threads/texas-ag-exemption-affects-loan.200085/
The website has some thing that pops up and says it is broken but you can still read the discussion.

From the info i am finding the ag exempt status has nothing to do with the VA loan in terms of being illegal or causing a problem with them having to pay rollback taxes unless they were illegally using ag exempt. A first mortgage is not an equity loan so the law does not apply for the ag exempt portion of the show.

Talk to @Latestarter  he just closed on a place in texas with an ag exemption and a VA loan in October of last year.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 25, 2017)

I'll look at the rest of the questions later, but how long have you been a Texas resident? If you or spouse is a military veteran or on active duty you may also well qualify for Texas VLB loans. They too are 5% down if I remember correctly, but they do have a limit on the amount they will finance. I haven't looked in to them in years, as I have always just paid cash for property.
http://www.glo.texas.gov/vlb/loans/land-loans/index.html



LMK17 said:


> they told him that a Texas Ag Exempt property won't qualify for either a VA or a Conventional Loan-- something about banks wanting to give loans for *just* the property and not bother with the ag exemption.



There is some truth to that, as VA prefers just to finance for residences, but afaik, they place no limit on the number of acres a homesite has, and I think the seller has his wires crossed. But, part of the appraised value of course, is  the valuation of the ag production. Land, just sitting there has a much lower appraised value than land being used. The VA doesn't concern itself with the ag value, the historically have just preferred to finance on the value of the non-ag, non-timber, non-commercial market value of the land, but that may have changed in recent years.

VA also doesn't do raw land loans, where the buyer waits an indeterminable length of time to build, but plenty of farms in Texas have been bought using VA as long as it has a qualifying residence on it or the buyer shows he intends to build a residence within a reasonable length of time.

Ordinarily, the rollback falls on the person that takes the property OUT of ag production--usually the new owner and it's only for the previous tax year IIRC, but if it is found the seller had not actually been doing ag production (it happens--a LOT) the seller has to pay the rollback and it's for 5 previous years. Change in ownership triggers an automatic re-appraisal of the ag valuation here in my county, usually as soon as the title change hits the county clerk's office and the appraiser sometimes realizes the previous owner was not actually keeping up his end of the bargain for the exemption. (once on ag, the appraisers haven't often gone out and physically checked to see if the landowner is following the guidelines, but they did check my sister's place a couple years ago when the satellite images didn't reveal any cattle on the place--trees hid the ground. They found plenty of cow pies and the well trod paths cattle always follow were unmistakable)
Seller may be concerned because he may not actually have been operating under the county's guidelines for qualifying for his exemption, and a new appraisal may show that--in that case, rollback would be on his dime.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 25, 2017)

VA will not finance a producing, commercial, farm property, being purchased to remain as such, as a residence. I bought a TX AG Exempt property, 19 acres, and even with the contract written up on a "farm & ranch" purchase contract, I got my VA loan. I got it through Navy Federal CU and had to fight them tooth and nail because the type of contract it was written up on made it seem like I was buying a working "farm" or "ranch"... In reality I was buying a rural property with a residence that had acreage. VA has no limit on acreage (within reason) for financing as long as you are buying it as a residence, which you are. You're going to live there right? and raise your growing family there right?  Claim it as your residence on taxes? You CAN get a VA loan! My realtor used a farm and ranch contract as it more adequately addresses the issues with a rural/farm/ranch/Ag property, and that set off alarm bells for the lender. Those three little words at the top of the contract. That type contract addresses things like fencing, outbuildings, wells and water rights, etc. which is why he used it. The key element in the VA's mind is commercial property (income producing farm), and if it will be used as such by YOU the buyer trying to get a VA loan... They don't care a whit about the seller. The home has to pass a VA inspection (livable).

Had I known the issues it was going to cause I would have had him use a regular residential purchase agreement and write in the other issues into the contract. This WILL have a bearing on the appraisal because the property will be appraised as a residential property but it shouldn't make a huge difference as the "income potential" of a farm has no bearing on the property value for residential mortgage loan purposes anyway. It DOES matter if you're doing a farm loan. You WILL want to make sure if you hire a property inspector that you make him aware that you want a "full" inspection done on ALL facets of the property, not just the home. The lender will need a copy of that invoice but will not see that report.

The VA and lender won't know about the Ag Exemption unless you bring it up. For the seller, as long as they are doing what's required, they won't lose their Ag and won't be liable for roll back taxes. As GB said, typically, it's you the buyer who doesn't do what's required to maintain the Ag and therefore you'd be liable down the road for roll back taxes. If the present owner hasn't been doing what's required then he may get hit with roll back regardless. Not your problem.  Also, I can't think of any reason that the seller would have anything to do with your financing... Your lender would have no reason to speak with the seller at all.

You will NOT have to do 20% down and can get 100% financing if you are eligible through the VA. I actually did more than a 20% down, but that was to meet my (retired) back end ratio requirement (debt to income - DTI). If you don't put at least 20% down the lender will most likely force you to maintain an escrow account for taxes and insurance. I also didn't want an escrow account.

As for the Tx Land Board (VLB) loan, you must have joined the military as a TX resident or be on active duty, and stationed in TX for a specified period of time. I'm not 100% sure of the qualifications anymore as I was already retired and wasn't living here when doing my loan, so didn't qualify. You can always go to their site and check it out. http://www.glo.texas.gov/vlb/index.html    When I checked, their terms weren't as good as the VA loan either in my case.

I say GO FOR IT and congrats!


----------



## greybeard (Apr 25, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> The VA and lender won't know about the Ag Exemption unless you bring it up.



How can they 'not' know it LS?
The lender is going to look at the tax records if for no other reason than to ensure there are no back taxes owed, and the existing ag exemption is all but impossible to miss. Title company will look at those records as well, and the ag exemption was discussed between myself, buyer, title co and lender at the table at closing when I sold some ag property in 2015. I don't remember now if it was the lender's rep that brought it up or the title company. It wasn't I or the buyer that did.  

No, you don't have to have been a Texas resident while serving or when joined to use VLB.  Any US Vet from any state can qualify, IF they are now a qualified resident. 


> *VETERAN ELIGIBILITY*
> To be eligible for VLB programs, Veterans, military members and their spouses must be:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 25, 2017)

The title company does the title search and handles the taxes. They report to the lender what the annual taxes will/should be. They also issue a title insurance policy (if ordered) to cover the buyer/lender in case of title issues which includes taxes.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 25, 2017)

We've been TX residents for 9 years, and DH has been active duty for all of them.  We did take a look at the VLB loans, but the limit looks very low-- $150K, I think.  Would be OK for raw land, but doesn't get us too far with the property in question.  I think, too, that the VA loan rates are more favorable.

I agree with what you've said about the VA loan restrictions.  I've seen that, too:  http://www.benefits.va.gov/BENEFITS/factsheets/homeloans/FarmLoans.pdf

Good point about issues cropping up if the owner isn't actually meeting the ag standards, but again, I'm confident that's not an issue here.



Latestarter said:


> VA will not finance a producing, commercial, farm property, being purchased to remain as such, as a residence. I bought a TX AG Exempt property, 19 acres, and even with the contract written up on a "farm & ranch" purchase contract, I got my VA loan. I got it through Navy Federal CU and had to fight them tooth and nail because the type of contract it was written up on made it seem like I was buying a working "farm" or "ranch"... In reality I was buying a rural property with a residence that had acreage. VA has no limit on acreage (within reason) for financing as long as you are buying it as a residence, which you are. You're going to live there right? and raise your growing family there right?  Claim it as your residence on taxes? You CAN get a VA loan! My realtor used a farm and ranch contract as it more adequately addresses the issues with a rural/farm/ranch/Ag property, and that set off alarm bells for the lender. Those three little words at the top of the contract. That type contract addresses things like fencing, outbuildings, wells and water rights, etc. which is why he used it. The key element in the VA's mind is commercial property (income producing farm), and if it will be used as such by YOU the buyer trying to get a VA loan... They don't care a whit about the seller. The home has to pass a VA inspection (livable).
> 
> Had I known the issues it was going to cause I would have had him use a regular residential purchase agreement and write in the other issues into the contract. This WILL have a bearing on the appraisal because the property will be appraised as a residential property but it shouldn't make a huge difference as the "income potential" of a farm has no bearing on the property value for residential mortgage loan purposes anyway. It DOES matter if you're doing a farm loan. You WILL want to make sure if you hire a property inspector that you make him aware that you want a "full" inspection done on ALL facets of the property, not just the home. The lender will need a copy of that invoice but will not see that report.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your experience!  And you're absolutely correct- We'll be living there, and our primary goal is not to turn a profit.  Because the infrastructure on this place is so good, the pastures have been improved so nicely, and some of the livestock can convey, we plan to start off doing a little more than if we were purchasing most other places.  (Fortunately, the owners will remain local for a little while and are willing to help us get started.)  And we'll stay in cattle for the ag exemption and will sell the extra-- so we may or may not turn a small profit, depending on whether we sell them on the commodity market or go for a premium price.  But bottom line is, the farm is currently profitable and may or may not incidentally turn a profit once we're on it, but our main goal is to maintain a residence and farm for our own use.  So I *think* we're satisfying the VA requirements.

Interesting about the Farm/Ranch Contract versus the Residential Contract.  When we almost bought a 13 acre ag exempt place back in Feb, we started out with a Farm/Ranch contract, but our realtor suggested we switch to a Residential and, as you said, just write in the pertinent info about fences and such.  That's what we did, and the owners didn't object.  This current guy is afraid switching to a Residential will cause him some headaches with the tax folks.

But you did a VA loan, you kept the ag exemption, and no one got hit with a roll-back, right?  How did you finally convince your lender to go through with the Farm/Ranch contract?

Dangit!  I thought finding a property was the biggest hurdle, and now we're fretting about loans.    Hopefully one more phone call to the tax office will get things straightened out!


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 25, 2017)

misfitmorgan said:


> According to this appraiser website it is for equity loans only unless they are diary production.
> https://appraisersforum.com/forums/threads/texas-ag-exemption-affects-loan.200085/
> The website has some thing that pops up and says it is broken but you can still read the discussion.
> 
> From the info i am finding the ag exempt status has nothing to do with the VA loan in terms of being illegal or causing a problem with them having to pay rollback taxes unless they were illegally using ag exempt. A first mortgage is not an equity loan so the law does not apply for the ag exempt portion of the show.



Thanks for the link!  What a convoluted regulation that seems to be!  I agree, though, that it doesn't apply in this case.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 25, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> The title company does the title search and handles the taxes. They report to the lender what the annual taxes will/should be. They also issue a title insurance policy (if ordered) to cover the buyer/lender in case of title issues which includes taxes.


Then the lender will definitely know about the ag appraisal. The VA itself will probably know as well.

LMK:
Don't get too wrapped up in the 'profit' aspect. Keep eyes on the prize--'production'.
To keep ag exemption, they want income a minimum of only one year out of 5. Buy a dink steer or two in the 3rd year. Background 'em on grass for 3-6 months and haul them to the sale barn when prices have gone up. Keep some outlay records if only in ledger, tho some receipts are a plus. Keep a copy of the sale barn weight and price receipt and a copy of the check. You've now met the requirements for that 5 yr period.
Tips to keeping ag exemption:
GET FARM PLATES  for your truck and any trailers you have. To do this, you also have to get a Texas Farm tax certificate. Farm tags are cheaper anyway and allow you to haul more on a trailer than regular tags do. It's one of the things the appraisal district will scrutinize if they decide to look ya over and it stands out like a sore thump to the appraisal district manager. "This person is on ag--farm tags are cheaper..If they are really involved in farming, why don't they have farm tags and a tax certificate?".

NEVER tell a local rancher or row cropper that you are a hobby farmer and have an ag exemption--ever! Many get upset about it and will call the appraisal district. It's like people that draw disability and brag to their friends they get a monthly check when they're really able to work. Eventually, someone is going to turn them in.

Put as much effort into making your place look like a farm as you do in making your house look like a home. I know a guy between here and town that go on ag after building a nice house on about 25 acres, by stocking it with a big herd of meat goats. Kept them about a year till they ate down ll the weeds and brush then sold them and did nothing else ag related outside his yard and showplace of a house. Pastures grew back up into weeds and brush and the appraisal office jerked his exemption and he got stuck with a rollback.

Keep you fences up and in good shape. Your livestock on another person's property or the roadway is a big no-no in my county. First time, the deputy will help get them back in. 2nd or third time, they send a mounted deputy out to inspect the fences and can impound all the stock. The neighbors can also file against you and likely as not  judge will order the landowner to sell their stock and by-by ag exemption. I saw it happen 3 years ago to an old rancher that had run cattle for decades here that couldn't physically keep his fences up anymore.

Remember always, it is the State of Texas that wants land under ag production. For the counties, ag exemptions are a property tax revenue drain. Counties are getting more picky about ag exemptions every year and will look for any reason to refuse it or jerk it. They *like* to get those rollbacks too. That's free money they hadn't even counted on.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 25, 2017)

Things must work really differently in Texas...here no way would a seller try to tell you you couldnt get a certain type of loan for their property, if anyone would it would be the lender. If the owner ended up paying rollback taxes that is on them and the rollback if its for 1yr wouldnt be much i wouldnt think, if it is for the 5yr then they were doing something wrong anyhow. 

Whichever the case may be if he is agreeing to sell the place to you and is trying to give you reasons on why you have to go with his financing options....I would be EXTREMELY weary. We just got screwed out over a year of hard hard labor and work we put into a place we were going to buy but cant(trailer to old) and the owners will not work with us on, even with 20% down. If your going owner finance know that normally those have a higher interest rate and sometimes banks will not honor them for refinance and your not eligible for a 1st mortgage on it if your buying it already according to some lenders. So it could screw you over down the road.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 25, 2017)

greybeard said:


> GET FARM PLATES  for your truck and any trailers you have. To do this, you also have to get a Texas Farm tax certificate. Farm tags are cheaper anyway and allow you to haul more on a trailer than regular tags do. It's one of the things the appraisal district will scrutinize if they decide to look ya over and it stands out like a sore thump to the appraisal district manager. "This person is on ag--farm tags are cheaper..If they are really involved in farming, why don't they have farm tags and a tax certificate?".
> 
> NEVER tell a local rancher or row cropper that you are a hobby farmer and have an ag exemption--ever! Many get upset about it and will call the appraisal district. It's like people that draw disability and brag to their friends they get a monthly check when they're really able to work. Eventually, someone is going to turn them in.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tips on keeping the exemption!

We had planned to start small and take several years to build up to full production.  I wasn't even sure if we could keep the Ag, depending on the size of the property and how crappy the farmland was.  But this place really changed everything!  I'd *love* to share a link with photos of the farm, but I'm sure you all can understand why I'm not going to advertise our new address in a public forum.  I'll attach a photo from yesterday, though.  We were there when one of the goats kidded.  DS videoed the event, and I snapped a few photos, too.  You can see much of the back pasture in the photo.  The entire place is that lush.  They keep 5+ head of cattle on the property year round, plus a little herd of goats, and the grass is way ahead of them right now.  Last year, they cut nearly 40 round bales off the place, in addition to the animals.  *It's only 20 acres, with 15 acres in pasture!* These folks have done their homework and run the entire place to organic standards, implement rotational grazing, use permaculture principles, the whole 9 yards.  It's a GOOD piece of farmland-- I'm almost afraid my biggest challenge will be not screwing it up.  Anyway, we'll have no problem keeping the ag AND doing anything we want to do for ourselves.  And like I said, the owners seem great and are volunteering their help with the place.  They seem pretty happy that like-minded young people want to take over their place and keep their legacy going.

Good point about the farm tags!  I hadn't thought about that.

The fences are really nice.  Mix of goat fence and 8 strand barbwire, with high and low hotwire on the inside AND outside of the perimeter fences.  Pasture divisions are mostly single stand hotwire.  The charger is good for something like 20 miles of fence.  And they have a nifty little alarm that tells them when there's a short.  We'll definitely do our best to maintain the fences, and as long as we do, I don't see us having any problems with critters getting in or out.  And how sad about the older rancher!  It's too bad when folks get older and their places get ahead of them...  We keep seeing that with the places that are up for sale now.

Makes sense about the counties and ag exemptions.  Fortunately, the folks in the tax office in this county seem genuinely friendly toward ag exempt folks and on the up and up.  It's a largely agricultural county, so I'm sure that helps.

Photo of the goats and pasture:  https://photos.google.com/album/AF1.../AF1QipN47Ql285wYVskSA6LziCqcL3REOQpttob8BBw1


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 25, 2017)

misfitmorgan said:


> Things must work really differently in Texas...here no way would a seller try to tell you you couldnt get a certain type of loan for their property, if anyone would it would be the lender. If the owner ended up paying rollback taxes that is on them and the rollback if its for 1yr wouldnt be much i wouldnt think, if it is for the 5yr then they were doing something wrong anyhow.
> 
> Whichever the case may be if he is agreeing to sell the place to you and is trying to give you reasons on why you have to go with his financing options....I would be EXTREMELY weary. We just got screwed out over a year of hard hard labor and work we put into a place we were going to buy but cant(trailer to old) and the owners will not work with us on, even with 20% down. If your going owner finance know that normally those have a higher interest rate and sometimes banks will not honor them for refinance and your not eligible for a 1st mortgage on it if your buying it already according to some lenders. So it could screw you over down the road.



Oh, it wasn't anything like that!  We had given them our pre-approval letter, and they had some questions, I think, about how a VA loan works-- something like that.  Anyway, from what research the seller did into the loan, he got the idea that maybe the VA loan wouldn't work out for a farm.  Someone told him that he'd have to drop the ag exemption (basically true) before the loan went through, and he made the leap to thinking that he'd get hit with a roll back due to his dropping the ag (not true).  He was understandably nervous about the idea of getting hit with a $$$$ penalty.  As far as his "recommending" loans, it was more along the lines of, "I'm not sure the VA will work out, but I think maybe XYZ and other loans will, although those loans require more money down.  Let's all do our homework and figure out how we can do this."  When I called the guy's wife with the info I gleaned today from the VA and tax office, she was quite happy and relieved that we had been overthinking things.

We're not going the owner finance route.  That hasn't actually been an option at all, and I can see why those would cause problems.


----------



## misfitmorgan (Apr 25, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> Oh, it wasn't anything like that!  We had given them our pre-approval letter, and they had some questions, I think, about how a VA loan works-- something like that.  Anyway, from what research the seller did into the loan, he got the idea that maybe the VA loan wouldn't work out for a farm.  Someone told him that he'd have to drop the ag exemption (basically true) before the loan went through, and he made the leap to thinking that he'd get hit with a roll back due to his dropping the ag (not true).  He was understandably nervous about the idea of getting hit with a $$$$ penalty.  As far as his "recommending" loans, it was more along the lines of, "I'm not sure the VA will work out, but I think maybe XYZ and other loans will, although those loans require more money down.  Let's all do our homework and figure out how we can do this."  When I called the guy's wife with the info I gleaned today from the VA and tax office, she was quite happy and relieved that we had been overthinking things.
> 
> We're not going the owner finance route.  That hasn't actually been an option at all, and I can see why those would cause problems.



Oh good and i'm glad your getting it sorted out. The way it sounded at first seemed a little fishy.  That picture link doesnt work btw


----------



## greybeard (Apr 25, 2017)

The link doesn't work because it requires Google Account  login.



> I'm sure you all can understand why I'm not going to advertise our new address in a public forum.



I'm not much on privacy myself. I'm well known in the area, belong to several real world groups that require my real name used in public, and have had boatloads of visitors here at home in San Jac county and @ my previous residences from a couple different internet boards over the last 20 years. Have hosted shooting events and car shows that required me to post directions to my residence, so it would be kinda contrary for me to try to keep where I live a deep dark secret. I worry far more about using a debit card in town than I ever will posting information on an internet board.

Tho not an issue in this thread, since the state and area was posted in the opening thread, of all the approx dozen boards I frequent, BYH is undoubtedly the worst about people not putting a location in their profile. I can't count the number of times I've seen folks trying to help someone with a feed and forage related problem and the original poster wouldn't say what part of the world they lived in, which made it all but impossible for someone to help them. It has gotten somewhat  better since Latestarter became a moderator and almost always reminds people to update their profile when he welcomes them to the board, but I still see lots of blanks where some sort of location should be.


----------



## Baymule (Apr 25, 2017)

https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/ag-timber/

You'll want to apply for a agriculture sales tax exemption also. You can do it online and print out your cards. Anything you buy for the farm is sales tax exempt. Lowes and Tractor Supply both keep my info in their computer, when I make a purchase, I only have to give my phone number for them to look it up.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 25, 2017)

OK, just to reiterate... DO NOT INCLUDE anything regarding livestock, farming, production, farming equipment (tractors/balers/anything equipment that's farming related), anything along those lines in the purchase contract. If you do, you will get no VA loan. Either do a separate contract or let it be a handshake. Use a residential purchase contract and add in the necessary stuff that isn't included. Compare it to a farm and ranch contract if you're not sure. The key element is that title at the top of the purchase contract. That's what the paper pushers will see and fixate on.

Submit a letter to the lender with your application that you are buying the property as a rural residence with acreage, with the intention of possibly getting a few animals for personal use. AFTER you have closed on the property, you will contact the appraisal district and file for the Ag exemption. There's paperwork you'll need to fill out and submit. The fact that the land has/is already under Ag means you won't have to wait the five years. Once the loan is in place, the lender is NOT going to be chasing you down to find out what the classification of the property is. Make all your payments on time and you'll be fine and the lender won't care. Make sure if you pursue Ag Exemption that you will indeed do what is required to maintain it.

Instead of applying through a local establishment, you might want to seriously consider applying through one of the military credit unions. #1, their rate will be lower (by up to 1/2 a point) as they are NOT for profit organizations. The costs will be less, again, because they are not for profit. There are other benefits to doing a loan through a lender that YOU are part owner of. As a credit union member, you are a part owner in/of that CU. You don't own any part of a bank... they try to own YOU! I used Navy Federal Credit Union (twice) for VA loans and though I had headaches both times and not the best service (I was a mortgage broker and loan officer for many years), it was well worth the hassle in the end financially. I presently have a 3% interest rate, 30 yr fixed, no escrow. that I closed on this past November. The best rate any bank was offering with comparable fees/charges was 3.5% In addition, I had them NOT charge an origination fee of 1% and instead, charge a 1% discount point. Discount points are tax deductible, origination fees are not. You can also ask the lender to cover ALL other costs/fees with discount points to save even more via tax advantage. They don't care, they make the same money either way.

I know this sounds really complicated, but it isn't really... just keep the goal in mind and always remember that you are buying a RESIDENCE TO LIVE IN, NOT a farm to make a living. AFTER you own it, well, gosh, the circumstances are so good you just HAVE to take advantage of them... Then you can proceed accordingly.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 25, 2017)

Baymule said:


> https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/ag-timber/
> 
> You'll want to apply for a agriculture sales tax exemption also. You can do it online and print out your cards. Anything you buy for the farm is sales tax exempt. Lowes and Tractor Supply both keep my info in their computer, when I make a purchase, I only have to give my phone number for them to look it up.


That's the tax certificate I was talking about. In my county, you can't get farm plates without it. I've argued that it isn't the way the statute reds but they are adamant. What the statute really says is that you have to have an ag or timber exemption registration #.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 26, 2017)

Just did a quick look and here's what I'm seeing: 

This from quicken loans: _"30_-_year Fixed_-_Rate VA Loan_: _Rate_ is _fixed_. The payment on a $200,000, _30_-_year fixed_-_rate loan_ at 3.625% and 75% _loan_-to-value (LTV) is $912.11 with 2.375 Points due at closing.  The Annual Percentage _Rate_ (APR) is 3.929%."    ( )

This from USAA (BANK!) They used to be military officer only auto insurance member only, and are now open to virtually everyone govt employed. They are NOT a CU - Member owned, though they make you think you're a "member" (for insurance you are). They are a bank and they are in it for profit.    "30–Year 4.000%  4.281% APR See note 1"  
Note 1:  "APR calculations for a 30-year Fixed Purchase with a $225,000 loan amount is based on a 740 credit score, a single-family detached, owner-occupied primary residence located in Georgia with a lock period of 45 days, and a 20% down payment.   
   ( )

US Bank (used to be excellent for 2nds.)  Rate: 4.125%    APR: 4.470%   ( )


Here's from : http://www.mortgagecalculator.org/mortgage-rates/texas.php    ( )







Here's from Navy Federal CU:  30 Yr VA  Rate: 3.250%   Discount points:  .500  APR:  3.535% https://www.navyfederal.org/products-services/loans/mortgage/va-loans.php

Just so you know, I don't get any payoff or anything should you use any of these folks.   Just tryin' to help best I can.


----------



## LMK17 (Apr 28, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> OK, just to reiterate... DO NOT INCLUDE anything regarding livestock, farming, production, farming equipment (tractors/balers/anything equipment that's farming related), anything along those lines in the purchase contract. If you do, you will get no VA loan. Either do a separate contract or let it be a handshake. Use a residential purchase contract and add in the necessary stuff that isn't included. Compare it to a farm and ranch contract if you're not sure. The key element is that title at the top of the purchase contract. That's what the paper pushers will see and fixate on.
> 
> Submit a letter to the lender with your application that you are buying the property as a rural residence with acreage, with the intention of possibly getting a few animals for personal use. AFTER you have closed on the property, you will contact the appraisal district and file for the Ag exemption. There's paperwork you'll need to fill out and submit. The fact that the land has/is already under Ag means you won't have to wait the five years. Once the loan is in place, the lender is NOT going to be chasing you down to find out what the classification of the property is. Make all your payments on time and you'll be fine and the lender won't care. Make sure if you pursue Ag Exemption that you will indeed do what is required to maintain it.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info!  We still have NO contract signed.    The owner keeps needing questions answered regarding the VA loan process-  he's not familiar with it, and he seems nervous.  I'd like to get the contract signed ASAP, for obvious reasons, but I don't have any reason to believe that not having it signed yet is a huge issue.  The owners are GREAT at communication, and we check in with one another at least daily.  We are planning to meet this weekend to get the contract hammered out.

The owners' concerns are:
1)  The VA won't fund the loan since it's a farm property.  _I think we have this pretty well ironed out.  They're going to drop the Ag valuation after we get the contract executed.  After closing, they're going to reinstate it, and then, of course, we'll apply in our own names for the 2018 calendar year.  Seems that as long as the VA doesn't see that it's under Ag, they'll look at it as a rural, residential property.  Plus, we're probably going to go with the Residential Contract.  Seller prefers the Farm/Ranch one but says he doesn't really care either way.
_
2)  The property will not appraise.  _I'm not super worried about this, though it's possible the sellers have info that I don't.  Purchase price comes out to $236/sqft.  Definitely on the HIGH end of the residential market, but on par with some other properties we've seen.  Plus, the house is NICE.  12" thick exterior walls, 4 sides stone, well maintained metal roof, completely updated within the past 5 years, brand new geothermal HVAC and all new duct work, in-ground swimming pool + stone poolhouse w/bathroom.  Other outbuildings include 2 pumphouses and a pole barn.  AFAIK, the VA will take into consideration the upgrades to the house, the pool, the outbuildings, and the market value of the acreage.  The seller's concern is that we're paying for some of the farming infrastructure that the VA won't take into consideration.  Again, though, I *think* we'll be OK... Is a little nerve-wracking, though.  We can make up some overage if the house doesn't appraise, but if the values are WAY off, it'll be a problem for us.  
_
3)  The VA non-allowable expenses will be high.  _I talked to the bank today and have some emails to forward to the seller.  The only "unusual" non-allowable for a VA loan versus a Conventional is the pest inspection-- about $150.  
_
True non-allowables aside, does anyone have any insight into which expenses are "typical" for a seller to pay?  Survey costs?  Any percentage of the closing costs?  FWIW, we're offering full price and only concession is $8K in animals and equipment that they were going to try and sell.  *We're not going to write the $8k into the contract, so as not to raise issues with the VA.



Latestarter said:


> Just did a quick look and here's what I'm seeing:
> ...
> Just so you know, I don't get any payoff or anything should you use any of these folks.   Just tryin' to help best I can.



Again, thanks for the info!  Without an executed contract, I can really only get estimates at this point, of course, but I've been quoted 3.875%, 30 yr fixed, with no fees and no points from Veterans' United, which seems to be the best so far for this particular mortgage.  VU waives the origination fee for credit scores over 720, and they're not charging an appraisal fee because a friend referred us to them.  USAA is saying 4.281% APR for 30 yrs with 0 points.  I also called Navy FCU, but we'll need to call them back.  The guy on the other end of the line had a way of speaking  (think mushmouth) that was very difficult for me to understand.


----------



## greybeard (Apr 28, 2017)

When I sold some property in '15, the buyer's lender wanted a new survey. Previous survey was 5 years old. Told him if his bunch wanted a survey, it was on him--I wasn't going to pay for it, and didn't. ($$$$ wasted--new survey came up EXACTLY same as the 5 yr old survey)


----------



## Bruce (Apr 28, 2017)

Quelle surprise @greybeard 5 years, sheesh.


----------



## Latestarter (Apr 28, 2017)

Typically title companies want a "current survey, meaning less than 5 years. With a VA loan, typically a survey WILL be required. Who pays for it is determined by what is written in the contract. For a 20 acre property, you're looking at $3-5K depending. More if you want boundary stakes placed. If you have an older survey, you can call the company who did that survey and ask what they would charge to "re-issue/certify" it... much cheaper than having a new one done.



LMK17 said:


> I've been quoted 3.875%, 30 yr fixed, with no fees and no points from Veterans' United, which seems to be the best so far for this particular mortgage. VU waives the origination fee for credit scores over 720, and they're not charging an appraisal fee because a friend referred us to them.



Not sure if NFCU will match what the other is doing but almost 3/4 point higher on the loan rate equals tens of thousands of dollars more over the 30 years of the loan. You did say you planned to put down roots there. The way NFCU works, if the rate is 3.25% with .5% discount, it would be 3.375 or 3.5% with no points. An appraisal is $400.00... peanuts compared to the higher rate over 30 years. Hope you find the ideal lender that works for you!


----------



## Reindeermama (May 4, 2017)

We just closed on some property we sold. We paid of course, the real estate agent's commission, our portion of the taxes(county, school, city) for January thru May 3rd, owners title insurance  closing fee to title company, and document preparation fee. We did not pay for the survey. Our's was only two years old, and wrote it into the contract that the buyer must pay if they wanted a new one. We paid only about $780.00 in closing costs.(not including the agent's commission) The survey would have been $2500. for the cabin and 5 acres. You can specify who will pay for what in the contract.

I found out up there in Real County, the new appraiser wants to raise the acreage amount to 30 acres to qualify for an  exemption. Of course, I don't know if this will happen or not.

So happy for you to have found just what you are looking for!


----------



## LMK17 (May 5, 2017)

Yay!  We finally have a signed contract!  Anticipated closing is June 16.  Next stop, the inspection!  We have an inspector that we really like.  He's very thorough, but I think still think the house will get his seal of approval.  I certainly don't see anything majorly wrong with it.   

We've spent about 8 hours at the new farm so far, a mix of business and social calls.  The owners seem like really great folks, and they're very helpful.  I'm actually going to head over tomorrow for a little while to help out with some chores and start getting some hands-on learning.  I think we're going to work with the cattle and bees.  We've already spent a good amount of time getting to know the goats.  (Socializing the kids...  It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it.)    We'll be "inheriting" the 15 oldest hens, too, so we need to get cracking on a mobile coop before closing.  So overall, we're going to hit the ground running, but I think we're getting a really good foundation set up.

And we got our new farm dogs!    As I've mentioned previously, our older chow mix, Sam, is and will remain a housedog.  I think she'll love running all over the farm during the day, but she'll sleep inside.  So we needed a couple of pups who can patrol the property 24/7.  We weren't looking for LGDs, just all-around farm dogs, and I think these girls will work nicely!  We decided to go ahead and get some pups now so that we could start getting them socialized and grown up a bit before we get onto the new place.  They came from San Antonio Animal Care Services (city pound).  They're approx 10 weeks old and came into the shelter Tues night with their mom and sisters.  I like that they're still young and have been with mom and siblings all this time.  Mom dog was a real sweetie-- clearly nervous, but friendly.  She looks like a full German shepherd to me, although the shelter was calling her a mix.  No idea about dad dog(s), obviously.  One pup looks like a German shepherd but with gorgeous brindle markings on her legs.  The other pup has pretty rust colored markings and a bit of white.  She has a smoother coat than her sister, and I really have no idea what she might be mixed with.  For now, the pups are being crate trained and sleeping in our utility room.  The current owners of the new property installed dog doors in the garage, so hopefully the pups will adjust easily if I put their crate inside the garage.  Depending on their size in a few weeks, I'll probably lock them in the crate overnight for a little while once we get to the farm.  Not sure they'll be ready to tackle things that go bump in the night just yet.  I'll post pics, but last time I tried, the link didn't work.  Any suggestions for photo sharing platforms?

Here's mama dog's photo from the shelter's website.  As of last night, she and all her pups had found homes.


----------



## misfitmorgan (May 5, 2017)

You can drag and drop pictures right where you type. Or you can use the tiny little picture button next to the smiley face button to add a url link for a picture. I find dragging pics the easiest for me.

Congrats!!! Hopefully the loan process goes smoothly.


----------



## Mike CHS (May 5, 2017)

Congratulations of all of the new milestones.   Mama dog looks like a thinker.


----------



## Bruce (May 5, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> I found out up there in Real County, the new appraiser wants to raise the acreage amount to 30 acres to qualify for an exemption. Of course, I don't know if this will happen or not.


I don't know about where you live but in Vermont it is the legislature that decides such things. No appraiser/lister would have any control, nor say other than as just another citizen of the state, in the matter.


----------



## Latestarter (May 5, 2017)

Congrats on getting the contract signed! That's the first big step! Awesome!


----------



## Baymule (May 5, 2017)

YAY!


----------



## greybeard (May 5, 2017)

LMK17 said:


> I'll post pics, but last time I tried, the link didn't work. Any suggestions for photo sharing platforms?


I've posted lots of pics just using the "upload a file" option button just to the right of the 'post reply' button.
(don't forget, that after the file uploads, you have to select either full size or thumbnail)


----------



## Reindeermama (May 6, 2017)

The local taxing district is allowed to set the rules concerning agricultural exemptions, and wildlife exemptions. He apparently upped them in the previous district he was appraiser for.(30 acres for agricultural and 75 for wildlife) This can vary based on the county you are in since it is set by the taxing district.


----------



## Reindeermama (May 6, 2017)

So happy for you


----------



## Bruce (May 8, 2017)

Reindeermama said:


> The local taxing district is allowed to set the rules concerning agricultural exemptions, and wildlife exemptions. He apparently upped them in the previous district he was appraiser for.(30 acres for agricultural and 75 for wildlife) This can vary based on the county you are in since it is set by the taxing district.


Wow, that sucks. ONE person gets to decide based on his/her personal opinion? New person takes the job and decides to change the rules? Bad, just bad.


----------



## Kiki (May 8, 2017)

Hi all.

Ive spent the day (on and off) reading this thread.
Very good info.


----------



## Bruce (May 8, 2017)




----------



## greybeard (May 8, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I don't know about where you live but in Vermont it is the legislature that decides such things. No appraiser/lister would have any control, nor say other than as just another citizen of the state, in the matter.


In Texas, the State legislature does pass the statute allowing for the ag valuation, but it allows each county to vary from what the state statute says. Unless something has changed, the Texas State statute says 10 acres minimum, but being a big state, with geology and climate ranging from desert in the far southwest of the state to rainforest like conditions in East Texas Big Thicket, there's simply no way to fairly and adequately set any "one size fits all" mandate here.

Another thing the tax district can do, is decrease the amt a homestead exemption is, and can even abolish the exemption altogether. I saw that happen in the district just North of San Angelo when I lived there, when the school district built a new high school the voters had already twice voted down. The county was stuck with finding some way to pay for the school, couldn't actually raise any more taxes or float a bond so they abolished the homestead exemption to increase tax revenues.

And as I have said before, the entire state of Texas, according to statute, is open range, the only exception according to state statute is along State and Federal highways. Each county tho, thru public referendum, is allowed to vote in a 'stock law', abolishing open range in that county. 

(There are several counties tho, by State statute, that are not allowed to vote on a stock law.)

_Sec. 143.072.  EXCEPTIONS;  COUNTYWIDE ELECTIONS.  The following counties may not conduct a countywide election on the running at large of cattle:  Andrews, Coke, Culberson, Hardin, Hemphill, Hudspeth, Jasper, Jefferson, Kenedy, Kinney, LaSalle, Loving, Motley, Newton, Presidio, Roberts, Schleicher, Terry, Tyler, Upton, Wharton, or Yoakum._


----------



## misfitmorgan (May 9, 2017)

Kiki said:


> Hi all.
> 
> Ive spent the day (on and off) reading this thread.
> Very good info.



Hi Kiki


----------



## LMK17 (May 18, 2017)

Sorry I haven't posted recently.  Between kids, puppies, homeschooling, and buying a new place (dealing with loans, insurance, inspections, and all that), I haven't had much time for the computer!

Our inspection went well!    There are a few things that we've asked the sellers to repair, and they've agreed.  There are also a few things that we're going to ignore for now, as we'd just as soon tackle them ourselves.  But the inspector says he'd buy the place.    Next steps are a septic inspection and the appraisal, both of which will likely be next week.  And we're working on getting home/farm insurance quotes.  What fun.

The puppies are doing well.  We had a scary couple days where they were sick and the vet said it could be early Distemper.   The kids and I actually postponed some travel plans to stay home and nurse the pups and be here in case we had to say goodbye.  However, after a few days on antibiotics they're nearly 100% again, so we're going with the vet's first hunch, which was some unspecified bacterial infection (maybe coccidia).    Not uncommon for dogs to leave the shelter incubating some bug or another.  Also, the pups were probably a week or so younger than the shelter thought, putting them at about 10.5 weeks now.  They're growing fast!  Dot was 12+ lb on Monday, and Ruby is about 1 lb heavier.

And I've got pictures!

My kiddos hanging out with the goat kids.  We'll get some of these guys in the sale, not sure which ones yet.  I believe there are currently 9 goat kids on the property.  I'm not sure yet how goats I want to keep on the property...  Gotta put some thought into that.




One of my favorite parts of the property- 4 acres of woods with a creek.  We're calling it Cricket Frog Creek.  




Our 9 year old girl, Sam




Meet and greet


----------



## LMK17 (May 18, 2017)

Ruby

 
The kids' cats, Starlight and Queen... You noticing that all the critters are color-coordinated?  That was a total accident!  LOL


 

The pups have gotten to visit the farm already!  We brought them along for the inspection last week since they couldn't "hold it" the whole time we were gone.


 
Dot


----------



## Latestarter (May 18, 2017)

So happy for you! The kids (both sets) look awesome! What fun... kids living in the country with animals! Love the pups and glad it wasn't something terminal. They are gonna love  life on the farm too! They'll find all kinds of "trouble" to get into, right along side their mentors; your kids  Congrats! You must be thrilled, excited, overwhelmed, scared and a lot of other feelings all at the same time   It will all be worth it in the end!


----------



## misfitmorgan (May 19, 2017)

Congrats, I hope all continues to go well.


----------



## Reindeermama (May 19, 2017)

So happy for you. It is a gorgeous place, and all the kids(lol, including goats and puppiesare so cute).


----------



## LMK17 (May 19, 2017)

Thanks, everyone!


----------



## Baymule (May 20, 2017)

So happy and excited for you and your family!!


----------



## LMK17 (May 22, 2017)

Next stop, insurance...  Pretty sure buying insurance ranks right up there as one of the *most totally awesome fun things ever.*  Right??  LOL  

But anyway, it's a necessary evil.  I'm trying to figure out our best bet-  Should we get a home policy + a farm policy, or is the farm policy overkill, since we're more of a homestead?  We'll be producing food almost entirely for our own use.  The only thing I can imagine us selling would be extra beef since we need 4 steers/yr for tax purposes (probably would sell on the hoof to friends).  Maaaybe occasional eggs, again direct selling to friends.  As far as animals, we'll have goats, 4 head of cattle, bees, and chickens right off the bat, plus the family dogs and cats.  Will likely add 3 pigs at some point and might branch off to equines...  Again, for our own use.  The current owners have a full farm policy, but they're partly a commercial operation.  They direct market to a list of clients and have hosted the occasional "farm day" for their customers to come visit the place. 

So what's necessary, insurance-wise?  Also, care to recommend your insurance company?


----------



## misfitmorgan (May 22, 2017)

I would just go normal home owners unless/until you end up getting farther into commercial then a few one off sales here and there. I just dont think it would be worth the extra expense to insure the small number of animals..they will not cover a garden either for crop loss as far as i know. We use Statefarm but i'm sure there are probly some specific to Texas that might be better.


----------



## LMK17 (May 22, 2017)

I'm really not worried about the loss of animals or crops.  Rather, my concern is liability in the event that one of the animals hurts someone.  Suppose a goat uses her horns on a visiting friend?   Or a cow breaks down the fence and ends up causing a car accident when it steps onto the road?  That's the kind of stuff I'm worried about.  I've gotten conflicting answers regarding whether a typical homeowner's policy would cover these sorts of things.

ETA- We decided we don't need farm insurance.  Armed Forces Insurance will cover us for liability in the event that a livestock animal injures someone or causes an accident, so we're going with them.  OTOH, USAA told us anything caused by livestock is specifically excluded from their policies.  We used to have all our insurance and banking through USAA, but their service has taken a nosedive the past decade or so.


----------



## greybeard (May 22, 2017)

There are several different kinds of insurance you can purchase to limit your exposure to losses. You would have to talk to an agent, depending on your investment, to decide which fits your operation.
The Farm & Ranch amendments or rider to a homeowners policy don't usually extend to liability for damage to another party out on a public road. The rider just covers (with limitations) the loss of the animal. This is called Livestock Collision Coverage and is  usually described : _"The company's liability shall be limited to the market value of such animal at the time."_ 
It's a good idea if you are going to be moving livestock by vehicle but LCC will not usually cover liability for damages caused to other people if your livestock gets out on the roadway. 

If you are going to have visitors to your farm, you should have Farm Liability insurance. It's usually a stand alone policy--not a rider on your homeowner's policy. I prefer to have my residence separately insured and kept completely separate from my farm activity. I may lose my farm to a catastrophic liability accident, but I'll still have a roof over my head. 

You might consider a Livestock “Care, Custody, and Control endorsement”  as well.


----------



## Bruce (May 22, 2017)

We use Liberty Mutual. Our barns are so old Nationwide won't insure them at all, LM has them as outbuildings. Not nearly enough to put more than a dent in replacing them if they burn. I can sell "farm products" up to some percentage of my total income. With 11 hens laying, 5 being 5 years old, I will never have to worry about hitting whatever %age that is!!

You can always get a separate liability policy, not related to the property at all. As @greybeard said, only an agent can cover all the options and get you what you need.


----------



## misfitmorgan (May 23, 2017)

Statefarm's policy covers you for liability $100,000 per occurrence and $100 medical per occurrence, $1,000 for damage to others property. We also have 168k coverage for the house, 31k for the detached garage, and 115k for personal property which the agent says we can use to replace any of the outbuildings(read as barn) if they become damaged. We may end up adjusting the policy to specifically cover the barn and out buildings but they are quite old so no promises there i'm sure.

Stand alone Farm liability isn't a bad idea.


----------



## Baymule (May 23, 2017)

We use Germania, it's for rural properties. Before that, when we lived in town, we used Foremost.


----------



## Bruce (May 23, 2017)

Never heard of either one of those @Baymule


----------

