# Question



## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

So I plan on getting a couple Nigerian does here in the future. My goal is solely for milk (and making things from the milk). Since I would just have a couple on a small parcel of land, I really don't want to have to keep a buck and always keep him separated. So my question is, when it comes time to breed and freshen the milk, if all the bucks in the area are a meat variety, would it make sense to breed the Nigerian does to a random buck? I'm open to eating the offspring, or selling them off if someone would take them (I wonder if they would sell). Would the meat buck cause a problem in kidding sense they are generally a larger breed than the Nigerian Dwarf?

Any info would be great! Thank you. :]


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

Also, I'm in central texas area.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 24, 2017)

No, you do not breed a Nigerian Dwarf to a meat breed. They are too large- unless you are referring to a pygmy.
Nigerians also tend to have larger litters... couple that with a large buck and you have really great odds that your doe will not make it through kidding.

As far as leasing bucks you just need to be aware of STD's and diseases. 
Many diseases are zoonotic so even though you may not want to keep a buck it is your most bio secure option. Of course that is only as good as the stock you have now and if they are disease free.
The reality is many that will stud their buck out to you will stud out to others and that is how terrible things happen in good herds.

Nigerian Bucks are wonderful. I would get two from different lines so that if you retain you have something to breed back to.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

Alright, that's about what I thought with the size disparity. It was a fleeting thought today in the middle of me researching rabbits. Thanks for the reply!  

The person I'm going to buy my does from is willing to stud out each year. It's just quite a drive. They don't normally stud out, but it's my pastor's family.  Lol
I keep thinking about how nice it would be to have a buck. And I'd love to have a flashy little boy to love on.
Is it better to keep the bucks always sesperate from the does? Are there times when you can have them together? 
I'm only going to have an acre to work with here, but I desperately want milk. But it's also important that my goats are happy/healthy.


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## Baymule (Jun 24, 2017)

@animalmom lives near Waco and raises Nigerian Dwarfs. She Would be a GREAT mentor and would be glad to sell you a couple of nice does.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

That's awesome! The area we might be moving to is not terribly far from Waco! Down in Kempner.  So that would be awesome!


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## Baymule (Jun 24, 2017)

See? All you had to do was join BYH!


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

lol I joined a long time ago when I first moved to Texas. But haven't been ready for any goats till soon! Lol


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 24, 2017)

You need to keep them separate when not breeding
An acre is enough room to have Bucks and does separate 
I had close to 20 at one point on an Acre


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

Oh wow! That's great news! That means I can keep some babies one day!  
Is there "goat math" like there is "chicken math?" I feel like there would be. Lol And NDGs are so pretty. So many colors!
Alright, that settles it! I'm getting a buck or two! Lol


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 24, 2017)

Next question. 
EVERYONE tells me goats are horrible because they're escape artists. I've read about no climb fencing and t posts. Is that the only thing that works?


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 24, 2017)

The way we started we got 3 doe kids 2 and 3 months old
They had the run of the whole Acre
It was a wooded area so we had to provide them free choice hay because they cleaned all of the browse out
When they were about 15 months old we purchased a 3 month old buckling and put him with them
He was not able to breed them for 3 months
We left him with them but started to prepare a separate area for him
After the first kids we moved him
He was by himself for a few months
We wethered one of the buck kids and put him with him
They were together for over a year before we bought a second buck to breed some of the first crop of doe kids


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 24, 2017)

You just need secure fencing
I've never had an issue with keeping mine in
Just keep them well fed


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 24, 2017)

Use woven wire fence instead of welded wire 
It's better


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 25, 2017)

I would, ultimately, like to get a couple does that are already bred and experienced in the matter. Or at least one that is bred and has had at least a couple kids before, and maybe another younger doe. Might be a better way to ease into this that way. And then a buck at some point, probably not right away. And if there's a buckling that I really like from a breeding, I'd probably make that a whether and let it be a pet/companion for the buck. 

Thanks for the awesome advice on the fencing! :]
On the matter of hay.  Now I'm really only familiar with horses. But for goats, can you provide them with a round bale of coastal hay, and they be happy? I don't really like doing that with horses because of the way that their guts work, but I wonder if it would work for the goats. Plus, I can imagine climbing all over it would be great fun for them for a while. lol


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## Mini Horses (Jun 25, 2017)

YES -- goat & chicken math are alike....except, goats are so very cute, so very cuddly, so very keepable!!  

Round bales -- what you want to be very careful with is that the goats will eat "into" the round and then collapse can occur.  Goats have been suffocated like this...especially the small ones as they all love to crawl into/onto things where the do not belong.   Properly used, rounds can work.


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## Mini Horses (Jun 25, 2017)

OneFineAcre said:


> An acre is enough room to have Bucks and does separate
> I had close to 20 at one point on an Acre



You should get an "ENABLER AWARD" for this


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 25, 2017)

Oh my word! Honestly, this doesn't surprise me too much. Silly mischievous goats. lol I'll have to read up on how to prevent that. 

Lol! And yes, enabler indeed. After I read that last night, I looked over to my husband and said "wow! This person had nearly 20 goats on her 1 acre." I got a very fast and stern, "NO" in response.  Silly man. But this was also not long after I said something along the lines of "wow! Think of how many chickens we could have on an acre!"


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## Baymule (Jun 25, 2017)

I cut a cow panel in half, had my hay man park a round bale in a corner, then put the panel halves up to make a square "hay ring". I tied it together with hay string. My sheep can stick their heads through to eat the hay. After they eat into the bale, I have to pull hay off the top  so they can reach it. I put a small tarp over the top, held down with bungees to keep the rain off.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 25, 2017)

Smart! I especially like the tarp idea! :] Thank you.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 25, 2017)

Ok. Perhaps an odd question. lol Can goat manure, like rabbit pellets, get thrown in a garden fresh from the goat's butt?  With the horses and chickens you have to let it decompose a bit, but with rabbit turds you can take them right after they've been dropped and throw them in for your plants and voila-- magic. I wonder if goats are the same? Hm.


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## animalmom (Jun 25, 2017)

Goat berries, just like rabbit berries can go straight into your garden.  My gardens loves both varieties.  I just rake the goat berries up with the waste hay and use it as mulch.  In the winter I load up the gardens with this and mix it in with the dirt for organic matter.

Regarding using a round of coastal I put my round on a pallet and pull off the hay I want for the goats.  That way I don't worry about them climbing on it, pooping on it and messing it up so that no animal wants to eat it.  I also use the coastal for my rabbits.  I do like how @Baymule does her round with the panels and tarp.  Somewhere she has a picture of the setup.  Maybe she'll be a sweetie and post the picture here too for you.

I'm in North Central Texas, Erath County.  If you have any questions I'd be more that pleased to try and answer them... goats or rabbits.  I have Nigerian Dwarfs goats and California rabbits... and chickens and geese and dogs.  You are welcome to come by and see how I do things.  I find seeing will often prompt questions and the more questions you can get answers for the better informed you are.


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## OneFineAcre (Jun 25, 2017)

I buy round bales of costal and put it under a shelter on a pallet and  pull off and put into feeders same as @animalmom


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 25, 2017)

Oooooh my goodness, @animalmom I would LOVE to come see how you do things! We're putting an offer on a house in Kempner (near Lampasas and Copperas Cove). I have chickens already, but plan on getting some Californian rabbits and some Nigerian Dwarf goats (whether I end up there or elsewhere lol).


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## Baymule (Jun 25, 2017)

Here ya' go. A picture is always better! Once they eat it down, I have to pull hay to the cow panels, as they can't reach the middle. Also have to tilt the tarp to let rain water run off. @animalmom


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 25, 2017)

So clever! I like that whole idea!  I'm all about ease. Lol  You don't have issues with them jumping on that and then jumping out, I take it?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 26, 2017)

Keep in mind goats and sheep are different. We use round bales but store in one location and pull off what we need and take it (in a big trash can) to where it needs to go.
Moldy hay can kill a goat. Cattle and sheep seem to do just fine with their hay sitting out... goats do not.
Goats are more like horses in that way. Good clean, dry hay.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 26, 2017)

Awesome, thanks for that info. My boss gets really nice horse quality hay for a discount (big horse ranch, tons of feed each week), maybe I'll have her throw in some bales of that for me. 
Are they sensitive to sand in the way horses are? My thoughts with this are going towards all the loose hay we rake up from the hay pallets. We don't feed it to the horses because of the sand that blows in it. Only feed it to the cattle on the occasions we have any. 

And from what I've read, a single goat needs about 1-2lbs of hay a day and supplement with a 12-18% grain. We measure a flake at about 5lbs. So about a third of a flake a day per goat? That seems like so little. Hmm. Does that all seem correct?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 26, 2017)

It is best to have hay available 24/7.

As far as the sand... I don't know... can't imagine that it could be good for them though.
Spent hay that falls gets raked up and put in the compost.
Having a good feeder with a catch means less wasted hay.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 26, 2017)

Good deal. :]  Thank you!


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 26, 2017)

Any random advice come to mind that one might miss or not generally think of during research?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 26, 2017)

Choose tested clean healthy animals to start. You can buy expensive / cheap/ everything in between- but if they are non tested animals they aren't worth buying.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 26, 2017)

The sand is fine as far as i've ever seen. So long as it's not in their daily diet every day, the sand should fall out as it is raked up and they are picking thru it.

We tried wrapping a cattle panel around our round bales when we used them but then one of our sheep got stuck in it where we had overlapped two squares and the goats pretty much beat her to death cause she was stuck. It was bad....so dont do that. Goats will do the same thing to other goats. Get de-horned if your going to have them eating thru cattle panels then you dont have to worry about them getting stuck. Bay's method looks good.

If your worried about them destroying your fence or getting out put a couple strands of hotwire on the inside of the fence line.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 26, 2017)

Awesome! Thank you for the advice and sharing your experience! :] I have so many notes scribbled down as I go through ideas of how I'm going to finish fencing everything. 

In the house we're trying to get one side is entirely fenced in with chainlink fencing. And the other side is this pretty white wood with two poles between each post. It's pretty, but impractical. and has some gaps at the corners. But at least there's posts there for me to build off of. :]


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 26, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Choose tested clean healthy animals to start. You can buy expensive / cheap/ everything in between- but if they are non tested animals they aren't worth buying.



Good to know! I'll have to get together with @animalmom and sometime after I get a place all set up! (although it'd be great to take you up on your offer and see how you do things before I get started on any housing and fencing projects too, lol)


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## Baymule (Jun 26, 2017)

Going to visit other people certainly helps, as you can see what works and doesn't work for them. Your situation will be different, but putting eyes on it always helps. Look at past posts on fencing and shelter/barns also.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 27, 2017)

Will do! Thank you. :]


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 28, 2017)

Would something like this work? Right now I'm thinking of using a woven wire fence, combined with a line or two of electric fence to keep them from doing silly things to the fence. Thoughts?

https://www.ruralking.com/red-brand...3k_H1jmcYDah8kbdvMQDidXvJENlmWqw_kaAh7n8P8HAQ


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 28, 2017)

The house we're looking at has chain link for half the property. Is chainlink fencing and goats (specifically nigerian dwarfs) a bad mix? Is that acceptable? Maybe if I run a line of electric?
The other half is wooden fencing that is pretty, but has no practical application, other than I could use it to help line some wire fencing around.


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## Mini Horses (Jun 28, 2017)

Chain link --if NO bottom pole, stabilization, they CAN push under.  So, look for that and then fix.

Look at it this way  -- A goat spends it's life just looking for fun and a way to get out of their enclosure.   Looking for them, fixing fences, all those things give their humans something to do with their time.      Another reason we love them!!!


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 28, 2017)

Pretty much any fence needs electric run around the inside to keep them in and off the fence. We use electric net fence and cattle panels as gates aside from those two everything else needs electric wire added because they will find/make/create/dig a way under/over/thru the fence. Some goats are worse about it then others.

As mini said....it is part of their life's work to keep us humans "happily" busy fixing what they have broken. All that being said i still love my goats and you will too.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 28, 2017)

Lol! that's pretty funny. Silly goatseses. lol

I'm fairly certain it had a bottom pole, but I'll check again when we go for the inspection. :]

Soooo would a kid's playground set be a fun/safe thing for a goat? I keep thinking about finding a used playground set for them that they can climb and jump around.  Like one of the big wooden ones. :]


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## Baymule (Jun 28, 2017)

We used the field fencing to fence property we used to own. I grew to hate that stuff. Our horses could hang a hoof in it and paw holes in it. It didn't keep dogs out. It broke easily. The holes in it I believe are big enough for a baby goat to get through. IMO, it is crap.

If you are going to expend the time, energy and money to put up a fence, get a better grade of wire.

https://www.ruralking.com/red-brand...-4-12-1-2-48-x330-square-deal-knot-70315.html

We went a step further and put up 2"x4" non climb horse wire. Not even the chickens can get through it.

https://www.ruralking.com/red-brand-1348-2-12-1-2-48-x200-non-climb-horse-fence-70342.html


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## Green Acres Farm (Jun 28, 2017)

Baymule said:


> We went a step further and put up 2"x4" non climb horse wire. Not even the chickens can get through it.
> 
> https://www.ruralking.com/red-brand-1348-2-12-1-2-48-x200-non-climb-horse-fence-70342.html


That is what we have. The 4 x 4 of the same brand is big enough for baby nigies to squeeze through. 

When we first got goats we bought welded wire and it worked until the bucks came into rut, ripped it up, and bred all the 8 month old does.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 28, 2017)

That second one you listed @Baymule is what I was originally looking at but couldn't tell if it was woven or not. I assume it is, then? If so, then that's definitely my first choice! :]


Gaaah, I'm driving myself crazy. Looking up and messaging all the local goat people in the area. Asking if I can come check things out. lol some of them are bound to think I'm nuts. Good golly though. The pictures of these goat babies are killing me!  If all goes well, I should be in our new place in about a month.  I told hubby the first thing I'm doing is setting up the goat area. lmao Forget painting the walls or anything like that. I'm getting my blooming goats!


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## Baymule (Jun 28, 2017)

We bought our place, sight unseen. It was a HUD repo, we won the bid and came to sign papers and got to see what we were buying. We went from a 2500 Square foot brick home to a 1500 square foot doublewide. We sold 16 acres we had outside of town and bought this place with 8 acres. Our daughter, her husband and our 3 grand daughters live 7 miles from us. We couldn't be happier. I painted the whole house, ripped up flooring and laid unfinished white knotty pine boards. I sanded, whitewashed and polyurethaned the floors. I did all I could do up until we moved. I knew that once we got here, I was going outside and coming in only to eat and sleep. So I know where you are coming from.......get your goats!


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## Southern by choice (Jun 28, 2017)

2x4 is a very good secure fence but the 4x4 sheep/goat fence will work- mind you, the baby goats can get through it but if you are putting hotwire down they learn quick.
If you end up with horned goats (hope not) then you will want the 2x4 because horns will get stuck in the 4x4

For the most part I din't think goats are always trying to get through or destroy fencing. Perhaps it depends on the breed and maybe the area as well. We have LOTS of goat and they don't try to get out.
The only goat we have that goes walkabout is a kiko kid that is a PITA... 
Our dairy goats are quite content where they are and do not destroy fencing. Rubbing when shedding winter coat is normal. There are other things you can do to encourage them to scratch elsewhere.
The 2x4 no climb- they still will climb on it.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 29, 2017)

We use the 4x4 redbrand fence wire and it has held up fine...aside from the LLama walking it down but that was because we were lazy and put the fence on the wrong side of the posts so his fat butt just ripped out the fence staples as well as our battery in our fencer being bad. Re-did the fence, got a new battery(actually we hooked an old car battery to it) and no more fence problems or escapies. They stay off the fence and it works fine for all of our livestock(no horses or cows).


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 29, 2017)

@Baymule  oh wow! Well this place I have seen, but it has these aaaaaawesome green walls and other odd colors throughout. (can you hear the sarcasm oozing?) lol It's a quirky little place, but I like it quite a lot. :]

@Southern by choice No, no horned goats. Everything I'm seeing that just seems dangerous with all the things they can get hung up on. 
Speaking of. When ya'lls goats have their babies, do you disbud them yourselves? 

@misfitmorgan   That was about to be my next question. I'm thinking about using wooden posts. Do you attach them with staples, wire, both? 

Lots to think about!


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 29, 2017)

WildIrishRose said:


> @Baymule  oh wow! Well this place I have seen, but it has these aaaaaawesome green walls and other odd colors throughout. (can you hear the sarcasm oozing?) lol It's a quirky little place, but I like it quite a lot. :]
> 
> @Southern by choice No, no horned goats. Everything I'm seeing that just seems dangerous with all the things they can get hung up on.
> Speaking of. When ya'lls goats have their babies, do you disbud them yourselves?
> ...



There is a very indepth "how to fence correctly" thread on here some place. I was just referring to you want the fence on the "inside" of the posts, the "inside" being the side you will have animals on. If it is a shared fenceline you can alternate the posts but that can be a pain and a shared line is generally less worried about for animal escape since they would be going into another pen. We use all fence staples but originally we didnt have barbed staples and hey were a smaller size. The re-do included barbed larger staples.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 29, 2017)

I'll see if I can find that thread! And thank you. Those are some great points to think on while I plan out my fencing! :]


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

Sooooo, if one maybe wanted to potentially, eventually, get some really blooming cute pet sheep  (such as the Valais Blacknose or those flipping adorable babydoll sheep) would said sheep generally get along well living with goats? Would one sheep be happy with a goat or do they like to have another of the same species?
I seriously need me a cute little ewe one day.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 30, 2017)

One on One as in one goat and one sheep would probably be fine. Running goats and sheep without horns together would be ok. Running horned together is a problem because goats can easily kill sheep. Atm ours are running together and I have noticed our two horned goats are beating up on them and my ram has a limp atm so we are going to have to separate them.

Babydolls are hard to keep in shape from what i have seen. Every single one we sheared this year was quite to very obese and they only got pasture and hay.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

Good to know! Any goats we get will have to be polled. I read only problems that come with horned goats on a small amount of land. I don't know when I'll get sheep, but I feel like I totally need some. Convince hubby to raise them for meat. But i don't know how I'd eat something with that cute of a face.  lol


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## Southern by choice (Jun 30, 2017)

We have had the opposite experience. When we had sheep they would ram our goats... it got pretty bad- so bad the LGD's were losing their mind over it. I also had pregnant goats and no way was I goingto have them abort because of the stupid sheep ramming them.  Our goats never tried to butt the sheep... we had polled, horned, disbudded goats at the time.
Eventually we had to move the sheep to the back land by themselves. The dogs didn't like them after all that either. Then the real issues started... the daggone sheep were constantly escaping.
After running down the highway to catch them (AGAIN) that was it. They had to go.

Unless you have a lot of land I would not put them together. Their dieatary needs are different as well.
Where there is a lot of land it seems this is more successful for some.

It started out fine... just got bad over time.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

Thanks for sharing your experience Southern! :] I will keep this in mind.


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 30, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> We have had the opposite experience. When we had sheep they would ram our goats... it got pretty bad- so bad the LGD's were losing their mind over it. I also had pregnant goats and no way was I goingto have them abort because of the stupid sheep ramming them.  Our goats never tried to butt the sheep... we had polled, horned, disbudded goats at the time.
> Eventually we had to move the sheep to the back land by themselves. The dogs didn't like them after all that either. Then the real issues started... the daggone sheep were constantly escaping.
> After running down the highway to catch them (AGAIN) that was it. They had to go.
> 
> ...



@Southern by choice 

I think the difference in our case is the goats were adult sized already when the lambs showed up so they started bullying them and havnt stopped i guess. It's only the two with horns doing it, the others seem fine with the sheep. Ironically our goats get out way more and/or before the sheep....until we re-did the fence lol. The electric net keeps them all in no problem, they stay a foot away from it, so do the pigs.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

Hmmmm I wonder what happens if you get both as babies and raise them up together.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

another question, how high would you say goat fencing needs to be (for the mini breeds) at a minimum? If using the 2x4 woven wire with electric at the top and bottom?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 30, 2017)

We got our sheep as 4 month and 5 month old lambs.. no issues til they got over a year and then they were just jerks. The jacobs we had were not 4 horned (I would not allow the 4 horned) just 2 horned....  Our goats never try to get out or escape. Cept the Kiko kid we have right now.  The worst part was when we moved the sheep they had acres and acres all to them selves and still got out. 5 strand hotwire (VERY HOT) they didn't care- right through... Grrrrrr


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 30, 2017)

Oh no electric wire doesnt work too well on sheep, thats why we went with net. Maybe it's a breed difference? We have polled suffolk sheep, two a few years old, 4 are 1.5yrs old and the other 4 were born this spring. Ours are also friendly and like me, they come up for pets.

Southern can you have your goats talk to my goats and tell them why it is better to stay in the fence?


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

I read somewhere on here that the sheep will run right through hotwire while goats usually have a healthy respect for it.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

Hmmm, ok, so reading that you can raise the sheep on grass. The place that we're getting has about half the acre fenced in chain link all around. The other half is just a wooden fence that I plan to update for the goats. But I wonder, the back half is more the nicer "backyard" type area.. From what I was reading earlier sheep are easier on "lawns" than other animals. I imagine they wouldn't be as destructive as the goats would. Would a 4 or 5 ft (i can't remember how tall it was) chainlink fence keep a couple sheep in? (particularly the babydoll breed)? I'd like to keep the backyard-ish area nicer for enjoying. So debating if those sheep would be happy/safe as well as good lawn management back there. Otherwise, if I decide to get some, I'll have to plan out a pen for them in the front as well.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 30, 2017)

You have to remember sheep are grazers... they will eat the grass down in a small area like that in no time. They eat it down all the way so it will kill it. They will need to be moved frequently if you don't want dirt.
Not sure what you mean by easier on the lawn... they will eat the lawn.
Often people will say they want goats to have to not mow as much... and all goat people laugh... nope that would be sheep! Sheep are great lawnmowers!

Lots of folks say the babydoll is a really sweet breed. I would find out if you have shearers that will come out for 1-2 sheep. Believe me that can be a real PITB not having someone to shear.
We have done our own and had them done. Having them done had to be scheduled months in advance.

Keep in mind if you only have a little land and you concentrate that you will have parasite issues, and bad! Sheep graze which means if too many animals on that area they are basically eating parasites. Although goats prefer trees, vines, tall stuff they will also eat off the ground.
Our goats LOVE bermuda grass - and even though they have tall stuff and weeds they dig down through that for the bermuda. 

Basically once your forage is gone they will end up in a lot environment- so factor hay cost in. 

I can't remember but did you say it was an acre?


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

Interesting. What I had read said that sheep don't eat the grass all the way down, so for that reason they were better. But this is why I like these message boards! lol First hand experience from people not making money off of a book or blog or whatever. lol 

It is an acre, and I do plan on feeding hay. :]


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## misfitmorgan (Jun 30, 2017)

WildIrishRose said:


> Interesting. What I had read said that sheep don't eat the grass all the way down, so for that reason they were better. But this is why I like these message boards! lol First hand experience from people not making money off of a book or blog or whatever. lol
> 
> It is an acre, and I do plan on feeding hay. :]



You need to find out what your stocking rate is in your area. I know someone else in texas was saying their stocking rate was 1 AU per 5 acres which would mean your 1acre of land could only support about 1 mini goat and 1 mini sheep on pasture. Texas is a big place though and i know other areas have a much better and a much worse stocking rate. For Williamson county the info i found says 4-9acres per animal unit depending on pasture type. If your on the eastern side of 35 with improved pasture land your stocking rate is 4acres per AU ,if your on the western side of 35 with improved pasture your stocking rate is 8acre per AU. That's 250lbs of animals per acre on the eastern side and 125lbs of animals on the western side per acre. Adult Nigerians are 50-60lbs i believe, i know we had two that were around 30-40lbs and two that were almost 70lbs. So you could have 2-5 nigerians on the 1 acre depending on what side of 35 your on.

I live far far away so this is simply info of what it says online for your county. Your actual land could be quite different in a good or a bad way. You could look into high-density pasture rotation that would cut down on pasture burn-out and parasite problems.

Sheep will eat grass down to bare dirt given a nothing else green to eat.


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## WildIrishRose (Jun 30, 2017)

The area I'm going to doesn't have any regulations on all that unlike Williamson county, which is where I'm at currently. The new area is more comparable to what is on the east side of the 35, though.


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## ragdollcatlady (Jul 2, 2017)

About chain link... I am currently repairing the damage to the chain link caused by goats. It can contain them if the bottom is secure and it is tall enough, but they will rub on it (and thoroughly enjoy doing it) and they can bend it permanently at about belly height if they do it enough over the years. Also they will eventually snap the wire brackets/ties that keep the chainlink attached to the poles. The chain link out back over here, is heavy duty poles (the kind DIY folks usually use for corner posts) and the wires attaching it are thicker, but they still snapped after a few years and lots of goat massages. 

My nigerian bucks can jump 4 foot fences if they feel the need (like if someone is in heat in another area). My boer doe did once too when she thought the herd was leaving her behind, but they usually don't. Once they learn they can do it, that is when you have a problem. I usually use cattle panel/stock panels as they keep nearly everyone in, but the Nigerian boys are in 6 foot high kennel panel fences.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 2, 2017)

ragdollcatlady said:


> About chain link... I am currently repairing the damage to the chain link caused by goats. It can contain them if the bottom is secure and it is tall enough, but they will rub on it (and thoroughly enjoy doing it) and they can bend it permanently at about belly height if they do it enough over the years. Also they will eventually snap the wire brackets/ties that keep the chainlink attached to the poles. The chain link out back over here, is heavy duty poles (the kind DIY folks usually use for corner posts) and the wires attaching it are thicker, but they still snapped after a few years and lots of goat massages.
> 
> My nigerian bucks can jump 4 foot fences if they feel the need (like if someone is in heat in another area). My boer doe did once too when she thought the herd was leaving her behind, but they usually don't. Once they learn they can do it, that is when you have a problem. I usually use cattle panel/stock panels as they keep nearly everyone in, but the Nigerian boys are in 6 foot high kennel panel fences.



WOW! 
We have 
Nigerian Dwarf
Miniature Lamancha
Miniature Nubian
Nubian 
Lamancha 
Kiko

goats.
Never had any jump over. We did have a Nigie dwarf go under a spot that wasn't secured and we had a fence collapse from the pole being in a flood area that got pushed over and goats came through.

If I had a jumper it would be gone. I don't have time for that nonsense.

@ragdollcatlady  do you use hotwire top, middle, bottom, at all?


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 2, 2017)

I'm fairly certain I'll use hotwire with my fencing, which should protect anything from being rubbed against and ruined. And since they seem to want something to rub up on, I have this idea of planting a pole in the ground and then securing some push broom heads to the post. Giving them something to scratch on.  
But I hot wire at the top should be able to keep them inside even a 4ft fence, correct?


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## Southern by choice (Jul 2, 2017)

Yep! The broom is what I was going to mention... they work great. Hotwire should do it!


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## ragdollcatlady (Jul 3, 2017)

I tried hot wire several times but was never able to get it to work at this place. We had it in town to keep the dogs from digging under the gate, but the dry sandy soil doesn't ground well (or something like that, so we gave up on the hot wire. I recently got some advice on running every other strand as a ground (from our friends on here) but haven't had the chance to try it yet. 

About the jumpers... Our nigerian buck learned to jump it when I moved his mate into a breeding pen and he didn't want to be left alone. Then the other nigerian buck kid saw how to do it by watching him and they can do it so easily. They just don't usually know they that they can and aren't all that motivated to get out. I try and make sure everyone is well fed and has a friend if they aren't with the herd.  Ravi (boer) just panicked when the rest of the doe herd got out and that was that. She actually caught her back leg and was hanging in the panel for a few seconds until I held her up enough to get her leg loose.... Talk about an adrenaline rush!!! One of Ravis doe kids from last year (a fat yearling) puts her back legs on the panel like she is going to climb it like a ladder.... I am just waiting.... might have to try that hot wire eventually for that one.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 3, 2017)

WildIrishRose said:


> The area I'm going to doesn't have any regulations on all that unlike Williamson county, which is where I'm at currently. The new area is more comparable to what is on the east side of the 35, though.



I don't mean the regulations i mean what the land can support, as in general good herd management.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 3, 2017)

@misfitmorgan It's hard to say in that area because it's such a mix match area of land types. The spot we're in appears to be more developed agri land, with large oaks and old trees, while just a little ways over there's hard dirt, cactus, and cedar.  But I would say if I had to compare, it would be more closely to that of which is over on the east side of the 35. 

@Southern by choice I'll include that in my plans for sure then! I think I've got a pretty good idea of what I want to do. Although, I still have plenty of time to research before I can start getting my hands dirty.  But I really like the idea of the 4ft fences just because it would be easier to see over for my short self, and the kiddos. How far up would you place the top hotwire? Maybe about 3 inches below the top, or all the way at the top?


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 3, 2017)

Went out there today and measured a bunch of areas that I had in mind for everyone. Here's my plans... bottom of the picture is East, top is West. Measurement is in foot. Orange lines are current ideas of where to put gates. If someone is in the middle pasture then the others would be let out in the big yard.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 3, 2017)

Mind you, I want 2 does, eventually 2 bucks. And maybe a couple of sheep one day.  gotta plan for those somewhere too at some point. But if I raise any in the next few years it will be lambs for a few months each  spring. . Nom nom nom lol


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2017)

The house size could be tricking me but that looks like more then an acre of land if your counting everything inside of the new pasture and the "big yard" which i assume is where the pool is all the way to the wooden posts/fence already there.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

I thought it looked rather large too, but according to the owners and all that it's an acre. The house itself is about 1700 sqft and a nice little square so it doesn't take up a ton of unnecessary space. :]


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2017)

There are several different apps and online places you can use satiliette photos to measure land area in acres. I really think thats over an acre, any recent surveys done?

This one works well
https://www.freemaptools.com/area-calculator.htm
Left mouse button and drag to move
Left mouse  button click to set points
Center mouse button to zoom
There is a drop down on the top left to go from map to satellite view


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Yep, it says about 1.099 acres. :]


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Planning out startup costs. Looking specifically at fencing costs right now. Would something like this hold well? 
https://m.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-Steel-Painted-Gate-Hardware-Kit/50414162

Also, I really like the idea of a self closing gate, so this hinge is pretty neat. 
https://m.lowes.com/pd/National-Hardware-TruClose-Black-Gate-Hinge/1000139559


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2017)

WildIrishRose said:


> Yep, it says about 1.099 acres. :]



Well it certainly looks spacious


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

And talking water troughs. For Nigerian Dwarfs, is a 2ft W x 1ft H x 4ft L (40 gal)  a good size? I'm thinking of chickens and babies and all kinds of animals that would like to drown themselves. So I imagine the 1ft height would be short enough for anything to escape from if need be.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2017)

Those kind of gate latches worked fine for mine....until the pigs broke them. The only problem i can see with those is sometimes they do come open, we put a chain on the gates as well.


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2017)

WildIrishRose said:


> And talking water troughs. For Nigerian Dwarfs, is a 2ft W x 1ft H x 4ft L (40 gal)  a good size? I'm thinking of chickens and babies and all kinds of animals that would like to drown themselves. So I imagine the 1ft height would be short enough for anything to escape from if need be.



Consider getting a water cup perhaps? 1ft is good and low but they will poo and pee in the water and then not drink it.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Lol it feels spacious too. But that's after coming from the teeny tiny backyard I have now, and the even smaller "yard" I had in San Diego.  I figure if I manage my space well, it'll continue to feel spacious.

I like the chain idea. We also have either a lead rope or chain around horses' gates as well. Juuuuust in case. 
A thought that occurred to me about the gate, does there need to be anything down at the bottom to secure it to? Will they wear on it down there trying to get out, or should the top latch be sufficient?

Alright, that was my other worry with the water too. Why do animals like to poop in their water?! Annoys the crap out of me when the freaking horses do that.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 5, 2017)

8 qt - easy to clean and fill-   tanks get disgusting quickly and since you will only have a few 2 buckets in each field is better IMO


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## Southern by choice (Jul 5, 2017)

these gate latches are great- i love the two way

http://surelatch.com/


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## Southern by choice (Jul 5, 2017)

oh - and for your gates - make sure they are wide enough to get your mowers, wheelbarrows etc through


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Perhaps a waterer like this? 
https://www.amazon.com/Large-Automatic-Waterer-Horses-Goats/dp/B00QJ3NKIG


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Those latches look nice! Any recommendations on sturdy hinges for wooden posts and gates?


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 5, 2017)

Thats the type of cup we are switching to after trying buckets and troughs but we have a lot of more critters then you. A bucket or 3 might work well for you. DH says he is going to mount the cup on a board that with a hinge to make cleaning easy. All the pigs will have water nipples and the sheep, goats, and llama will have the cup. We will have to use buckets/troughs in the coldest part of winter but you shouldnt have that issue.

The new place is going to have sure-latches on the gates so the pigs cant get through them. I was going to upgrade them here but DH said just wait. On our stall gates we put a latch 2/3s up from the bottom and then a hook&eye latch at the bottom 1/3 but again thats for the pigs lol.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

I like the idea of the cups since they're automatic and I could probably easily place them and run water lines out to them without much work. So that may be good. And then have buckets in there too, just in case something malfunctions or what have you.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 5, 2017)

The only issue with auto waterers that hook to hoses is the water gets HOT!
If the water line is not buried and you live in a hit region you will have problems.
I live in NC and if the hose is out (which it is strung out everywhere) we have to run the water a long time before cool water comes through.
The sun heats that water so hot that you cannot even keep your hand there while it is running.

My friend just got the some auto waterers and she has found out the hard way that the animals are not drinking because the lines are not buried and that water is scalding hot.

I am a bit fanatical about buckets. Ours are scrubbed and bleached daily and rinsed thoroughly at every refill. 
Having dairy goats, I need to make sure they are drinking water and drinking well. Mine will not drink if the buckets are slimy, dog drool or yucky in any way.
Yes, your goats become like you- it is true- I am still slightly OCD.

We have 
4- 5 gallon buckets in one field, plus 3- 2 gallon buckets in other areas. doe areas
3- 2 gallon buckets in another girl baby goats
2-2 gallons in another boy baby goats
1- 5 gallon bucket  plus 2 2gallon buckets for Nigie and Mini bucks
1- 5 gallon bucket for 3 standard bucks area
2- 5 gallon buckets for Kikos

We have used barrels before when goats were off site and no hose access... fill 50 gallon drum with auto water and put in shade- that worked fine but was for kikos

Now- I can say filling these buckets is a PITB! Yes it is! BUT we have a lot of goats and Livestock Guardian dogs and I have no way to trench and put pipe down to run water to all locations so it is what it is for me.

I do see many farms that use auto waterers but truthfully I think they just forget about cleaning them because they are never filling them... most places I see this the waters are disgusting.


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## animalmom (Jul 5, 2017)

The reviews on that cup aren't that good.  Seems it has a faulty shut off valve.

We have a couple larger flat back type buckets that we put a tank float on and connected that to a 55 gallon drum.  In the winter I fill up once a week and in the summer at least twice a week.  In one pen we have a large deep rubber dish that we use with a tank float and connect to another 55 gallon drum.  Rarely do I find the goats have managed to poop in the water.  I keep a toilet brush on top of each of the water drums so I can clean out the bucket.  Easy to dump and it refills itself.  Just have to keep water in the drums.

Even in the heart of Texas our winters will freeze water.   Usually I can break up the ice on the top of the water bucket and fish out the chunks.  The dainty goaties don't want to touch the ice to get to the water.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Ooooh good idea with the tank floats too! :] There are spickets all over this place, so I could definitely hook some up, bury the lines to the buckets, and call it a day. Hmm maybe I'll just do that. These options are certainly cheaper than the $100 water troughs I was looking at, which makes me happy. lol 

Lol I get the fanatics about the water buckets, Southern. I work at a horse ranch and we're forever cleaning buckets and troughs. Especially in the summer.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Ok, so I wrote up a little list here and I'm just going through everything trying to decipher some of the costs. 

So things I can build would be-
Shelter, milking stand, fence, feeder

Then some things to purchase
Goat minerals 
Mineral feeder if I don't get the block form
Bedding (I'm thinking straw at this point)
Grain dish 
Grain scoop
Collars
Brushes
Rectal thermometer
Hoof trimmers
5 gal buckets
Floats
Feed & Hay of course
Milking buckets
Funnel, strainer, and filters

It looks like more on paper than it does on the screen. Lol 
Would this seem like basic needs? Am I missing anything that I should consider?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 5, 2017)

What breed are you getting? I think you posted it, but I may have missed it.

You will want to build up a small medicine cabinet and need to start looking around for a good, goat vet.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

@Goat Whisperer, I am getting Nigerian Dwarfs.  

Thanks for that advice! I'll start searching around for one. :] What kinds of items do you like to have in your medicine cabinet?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 5, 2017)

I thought so! 

You might want to stick with the 2gal buckets, especially if you are starting with kids. It takes them a while before they can drink out of a five gallon bucket. 

For the troughs- like SBC said, I'm not a fan of them. Kids absolutely can drown in them as well! If/when your does kid out, you will need to lift or hang the small 2 gallon buckets as newborn can and will drown in those too. I've seen it many, many times on other folks farms. 

As far as a medicine cabinet… over the years your really accumulate a lot of stuff 

Later I will post a brief list. 

Establishing a relationship with a vet is critical. Goats are relatively easy- but when something goes wrong you a good relationship is critical.


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## TAH (Jul 5, 2017)

I try to keep things as natural as possible and realized there are some things you just can't treat naturally!

What I had-

Pepper Mint Oil, Lavender Oil, Cinnamon Oil, etc, - Helps with swelling, pain, Bug repellents, etc.

VetRx Goat and Sheep Remedy

Apple Cider Vinger

Udder Balm

Betadine

Iodine

SafeGuard de-wormer (I gave molly's herbal but just in case I had SafeGuard)

Vet Wrap

Stitching Kit

Bee Balm

Dixie cups for random things (Work great when dipping the umbilical cord on kids)

Bleach

Homemade powder mix for goats with lice, fleas, etc (DE, Baking Soda)

Molasses

Corn Syrup

Needles for drawing blood

Towels, Lots of them

Thermometer

I think that is all but I always remember more after!

And I never had a vet but wish I did...


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 5, 2017)

Loving all the advice and feedback! Thank you all!  Anything else I'm missing on my aforementioned list?


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 6, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> The only issue with auto waterers that hook to hoses is the water gets HOT!
> If the water line is not buried and you live in a hit region you will have problems.
> I live in NC and if the hose is out (which it is strung out everywhere) we have to run the water a long time before cool water comes through.
> The sun heats that water so hot that you cannot even keep your hand there while it is running.
> ...



I definately imagine a hose laying on the ground would be a poor source for a watercup, even up here the hoses get hot. We have a water spigot inside of the barn so it all stays in shade and the line is burried 6 ft down so no issues with hot hoses for us.


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## animalmom (Jul 6, 2017)

I would not use a mineral block as I have heard the block can hurt the goats' teeth.

I use this for their minerals.  I clip it to their fence.  https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/fortiflex-mf-2-mineral-feeder-2x175-qt-capacity-black

I use an almost instant read thermometer I bought at Dollar Tree for $1.00.  It works fast, beeps when it decides it has the correct temperature and is easy to clean off.  Did I mention it works fast?  Goats are not known for their understanding and capacity to stand still.


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 6, 2017)

I was reading that they like to stand on the mineral blocks, and then won't eat it. I find it humorous how picky goats apparently are. lol 

That looks like it would work perfectly. :] Thank you for the link!! 
Dollar Tree is amazing! Nice to know you don't have to buy a super expensive thermometer. I remember when I had my first kid, I AGONIZED over which thermometer to get. lol


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## Southern by choice (Jul 10, 2017)

@WildIrishRose  you mentioned wanting sheep- check this out-
good example of making sure you have the land to support sheep...

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/grass-is-greener-on-the-other-side.36430/


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## WildIrishRose (Jul 11, 2017)

Thank you! :]


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