# Early Questions on pygmy & dwarf



## MomMommyMamma (Feb 26, 2011)

I've checked out several books from the library and we're still in the information gathering stage. We have 1/4 acre with woods behind our house. We keep chickens. I'd like to add a mini-goat or two. I'm a little unsure if the info for full size goats all applies and just the fencing & housing are smaller or are there more differences. A few questions:

1. Any particular temperament differences between the small breeds? We have five children ages 11 on down to 2. We homeschool and the children are a big part of animal care.

2. How many goats do you need to keep? Is two enough for the goats to be content or is that just not enough? Would two does be best? At this point we just want to get used to having a goat and not working about milking.

3. Are all of the health, feed, etc. needs of minis the same as fulls size? Are there additional things to be aware of?

Thanks so much for any info. As I said, just getting started. I want to have as accurate as possible of an understanding before we dive in. The cost of feed, housing, health care, etc. Are there any good websites with solid information? After a friend said she had heard about "teacup pigs" (what a horrible thing!), I want to be sure that I am getting good info not someone selling a live animal under false pretenses to make a buck.


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## helmstead (Feb 26, 2011)

Every critter has its own personality.  Many will tell you one breed is one way as opposed to another breed, but I've not found the stereotypes to stick across the board.

Two is fine.  For pets, two wethers would be perfect.  No hormones.  

All of the requirements are the same for big goats and little goats...little goats just need less feed and less space.


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 26, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Every critter has its own personality.  Many will tell you one breed is one way as opposed to another breed, but I've not found the stereotypes to stick across the board.
> 
> Two is fine.  For pets, two wethers would be perfect.  No hormones.
> 
> All of the requirements are the same for big goats and little goats...little goats just need less feed and less space.


How tall of a fence does the "average" mini need? And how large of a pen would be needed for two little goats? Our thought is that we would keep them penned unless we were outside to be with them or to tether them to a post or tree to allow them to graze in a particular area.


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## elevan (Feb 26, 2011)

I would never tether - there is just too much chance for disaster!

My fences are 4 foot high woven wire.

If you need movable pens, just use chainlink dog kennels or cattle panels but again please don't tether.


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## helmstead (Feb 26, 2011)

4' is typically fine...we use woven wire field fence.

For permanent housing of a couple miniatures, probably a 50' square would be sufficient.  Of course the bigger you can go, the healthier the enclosure will be.  As far as housing, anything from a little shed type barn to a large dog house is fine.

And I agree, tethering is not a great idea.  If you make sure to get tame babies and spend lots of time with them, they'll say with you when  you let them free range...and goats ALWAYS will come to you at the shake of a feed scoop!!


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 26, 2011)

Great! Learning already 
What happens w/ tethering? The only goats I've been around were at my uncles years ago and ocassionally he would tether a goat to a post.


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## helmstead (Feb 26, 2011)

Goats are kinda dumb sometimes.  They can run from being frightened and hit the end of the tether, breaking a neck...or get tangled up and choke to death, or wrap a leg and break that....


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 26, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Goats are kinda dumb sometimes.  They can run from being frightened and hit the end of the tether, breaking a neck...or get tangled up and choke to death, or wrap a leg and break that....


Yikes! Good to know! 
Do we need to protect them from any predators? We've lost two hens to a neighborhood dog, and of course the coop has to be predator proof, etc.


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## elevan (Feb 26, 2011)

MomMommyMamma said:
			
		

> helmstead said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another reason not to tether - if tethered they are dog food.

Make sure your fence is tight and there are no gaps at the bottom that a dog (or goat) can squeeze under.  If the neighbor dogs are large or good jumpers I would make the fence higher.

I lost a doeling last June to a dog who found a spot to go under the fence...the other ran when she was attacked but she didn't have a chance...the dog was in the pond swimming when she went for a drink!  Now they are afraid of the pond - they think a swamp monster is in there.  I don't blame them.  I now check my fences weekly and fix any dips right away.


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 26, 2011)

We have 7 children and homeschool as well - ours range from 16 down to 3.  Ours is a MINI farm as our property is smaller than most goat keepers have.  We aren't able to pasture, so instead we bring the pasture to them.  Originally I planned to tether but have since learned it's not usually a good idea with goats.  I may set up mini moveable pens to use so that they can browse areas near us when we are out working on the property.  Our mini farm includes 2 full size nubian milkers and a flock of chickens.

Your kids will LOVE the animals!  My oldest is now highschool age, so we now get to add "agricultural science" to his homeschool transcript.

Are you interested in keeping goats just as pets or are you interested in milking?  We LOVE the creamy fresh milk we get from our nubians.  Because of the high butterfat it's wonderfully creamy.  Tastes just like fresh cow milk.  Nigerian Dwarf milk is even higher in butterfat than nubian - never had it, but from what I hear it's fabulous milk!  If milk is something you might be considering, obviously you'll want a couple does.  If you just want pets than wethers would likely be your best bet.  Our girls are our milkers AND our pets - I spend alot of time with them, it has become my "outlet".  

Whatever route you chose you and your family are gonna love 'em!!


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 26, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> We have 7 children and homeschool as well - ours range from 16 down to 3.  Ours is a MINI farm as our property is smaller than most goat keepers have.  We aren't able to pasture, so instead we bring the pasture to them.  Originally I planned to tether but have since learned it's not usually a good idea with goats.  I may set up mini moveable pens to use so that they can browse areas near us when we are out working on the property.  Our mini farm includes 2 full size nubian milkers and a flock of chickens.
> 
> Your kids will LOVE the animals!  My oldest is now highschool age, so we now get to add "agricultural science" to his homeschool transcript.
> 
> ...


I don't know about milking. I want to, but I'm worried about adding too much all at once to our lives. We're only about a year into getting our little mini-farm going. Maybe it's micro! We have 1/4 acre. The woods behind the house make it feel much larger though. 
Now I'm wondering about noise. An acquaintance has over the last few years gone through all that we are interested in doing and is now back down to just chickens because she became overwhelmed. She has kind of a it-wasn't-that-great-for-me-so-it'll-stink-for-you-too attitude which is a little annoying. She is insisting that her pygmy goats were very loud, 24 hrs. a day. Another friend commented that their nubians are only loud when they want food and she replied, "then my goats must have been hungry all the time lol,". Are they noisy day and night? We recently had to put our rooster down because he was crowing at 4 AM. Though legal where we are, we want to be good neighbors. Our lots are more spread out but there is a "standard" neighborhood just one street over. Daytime noise is not an issue, but if they will be loud enough to be keeping a neighbor 1/4 acre away up at night, then I won't be able to. 
Just got a message from a friend nearby who runs a larger farm, that she is expecting to get pygmies next week and we're welcome to come on over to meet them!


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 26, 2011)

One of my nubians is quite the loud mouth.  When I first brought her home (end of November) after just a few days I thought we were going to have to get rid of her.  She was obnoxious!  But she settled down shortly thereafter.  I think she was missing her larger herd and a little unsettled from the move.  She still tends to be loud, but it's never random.  She likes to "talk" to people.  The only time I ever hear her is when there are people around that she wants to chat with - or beg food from.  Really, I kinda like that.  I want a goat that wants to interact with the kids and I.

Nubians are know for being loud.  Other breeds can be, but I don't think that they're known for it like the nubians.  

If milking is something you *might* want to consider down the road then getting a couple nigi does will allow you that option after you get settled in and used to the routine.  If your unsure, just make sure you have young does (babies would be fun for your kiddos) or does that your certain aren't bred.  

In Seattle they are now allowing mini breeds of goats on standard size lots - two total I think is what's allowed.  It's amazing what can be done in small spaces.  It can mean more work because your animals are more confined - cleaning more often, etc.  But it's so worth it!

Keep us posted on what you decide!


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## elevan (Feb 26, 2011)

My pygmies are only loud at feeding time.  Other than that I don't hear much.  Unless I poke my head out and meh at them then they all meh back   Sort of a game we play  

I personally think that if you live in the country - especially around farms (big or small or micro) - then you need to expect farm noises...or else move back to the city    So I really don't care what my neighbors think on that level.

On the note of roosters crowing at 4 am...mine does this too...but only when he didn't get free range time the day before.  I see it as my punishment for not letting him out    So as long as he gets at least an hour out and about he doesn't crow all night long.  When the weather is bad (snow / rain) we just carry him to the barn and he happily scratches in the horses stalls    I know he's spoiled.

Back to goats...individual personalities will dictate noise level.  Some will say this breed or that breed are loud.  You can't lump it into a breed category...some individual goats are just load.  And there's usually a reason that they are yelling (as referenced by my rooster).

Don't let one person's experience cloud your decision.  But I would suggest spending some time with goats before purchasing to decide before you buy if they are truly right for you.

Good luck to you!


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## Livinwright Farm (Feb 27, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> We have 7 children and homeschool as well - ours range from 16 down to 3.  Ours is a MINI farm as our property is smaller than most goat keepers have.  We aren't able to pasture, so instead we bring the pasture to them.  Originally I planned to tether but have since learned it's not usually a good idea with goats.  I may set up mini moveable pens to use so that they can browse areas near us when we are out working on the property.  Our mini farm includes 2 full size nubian milkers and a flock of chickens.
> 
> Your kids will LOVE the animals!  My oldest is now highschool age, so we now get to add "agricultural science" to his homeschool transcript.
> 
> ...


Nigerian milk is *delish*!! I mean, all goat milk is great, espescially when the does are given alfalfa hay during the milking season... it just adds to the richness & sweetness of their milk.
Also, if you *LOVE*  high butterfat milk,  feed your milking does at least 1 cups of BOSS per day!


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## chandasue (Feb 27, 2011)

MomMommyMamma said:
			
		

> Now I'm wondering about noise. An acquaintance has over the last few years gone through all that we are interested in doing and is now back down to just chickens because she became overwhelmed. She has kind of a it-wasn't-that-great-for-me-so-it'll-stink-for-you-too attitude which is a little annoying. She is insisting that her pygmy goats were very loud, 24 hrs. a day. Another friend commented that their nubians are only loud when they want food and she replied, "then my goats must have been hungry all the time lol,". Are they noisy day and night? We recently had to put our rooster down because he was crowing at 4 AM. Though legal where we are, we want to be good neighbors. Our lots are more spread out but there is a "standard" neighborhood just one street over. Daytime noise is not an issue, but if they will be loud enough to be keeping a neighbor 1/4 acre away up at night, then I won't be able to.


Sort of sounds like you're in a similar sort of neighborhood as us... I was really worried about noise as well but my neighbors say they hardly notice them. They are really only obnoxiously loud when they're in heat every 20 days or so. (I have NDs.) The milk from NDs IS really awesome but it is a daily commitment that has to be done even if you're sick or out of town by someone. Keeping a couple of wethers would be easier and likely much quieter. Once it's dark I never hear a peep out of them. I'm wary of neighbors dogs, they got into my coop and that was not pretty. We now have double fencing. A privacy fence encloses our backyard AND I have a fenced area for the goats. Probably overkill but I didn't wan to take any chances and I didn't want to resort to electric fencing.


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## BetterHensandGardens (Feb 27, 2011)

We have ND's and they are only noisy when they think it's feeding time and can see me, otherwise they're pretty quiet.  When we told the neigbors we had them (we have 3 of them) they claimed they had no idea.  I sort of find that hard to believe, but whatever.  At night, they make no noise - and I think that's because they would never want to draw a predator toward themselves at night.

As far as being noisy in heat, it depends on each doe.  I have one that is normally the noisiest at feeding time, she will hardly make a sound when in heat. The other two don't seem to vary in noisiness.  

I've put some basic information on ND's here: http://www.betterhensandgardens.com/2010/09/15/nigerian-dwarf-goats/


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 28, 2011)

Thank you all for all of the info! I'm learning a lot! I think it's going to take me a while to save up for the initial expense of the goats, their housing, fencing, etc. Hopefully we can get them this year though! 

If we get 1 doe and 1 wether...
We'll have to have the doe bred to get the milk. At what age do you usually have them bred? Is this a really expensive thing to do? And then, when you wean the kid - I guess we would just try to sell the kid? Boy, my kids are unhappy when we sell a chicken, I don't think they'll like selling a goat much lol!  With milking, how long will the doe continue to produce milk?


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## Livinwright Farm (Feb 28, 2011)

MomMommyMamma said:
			
		

> Thank you all for all of the info! I'm learning a lot! I think it's going to take me a while to save up for the initial expense of the goats, their housing, fencing, etc. Hopefully we can get them this year though!


Getting the goats themselves:
  Check out craigslist, local Blue Seal, Farmer's union, and TSC boards for goats! I got my little herd from Craigslist. $250 for 2- 2yr old does, 1- 5 wk old buckling, 1- 4 wk old buckling, and his 4 wk old doeling twin. On the various boards around here, people are constantly giving away their extras for free. Mainly because they don't realize that you don't need a license to sell them, if they are being sold as PO/NFF(Pet Only/Not For Food). 
Giving shelter:
  If you live up north, they will need a completely enclosed barn(to keep them sheltered from snow). I went the extra measure(living in NH) to insulate the barn and keep 2 heat lamps running(1{red} constantly, 1 {white} on a timer to provide 16 hrs "daylight") Even when it dipped down to -21F outside, the barn read at 23F. My barn is my avatar image. it is 12x13x13(not including roof).  





Fencing is where it can get expensive:
You need to know what breed/size of goat you want. Nigerians and Pygmys don't require the extra height in fence, but if you get kids, you will want not only the standard Goat Fencing, but you will want to run chicken wire around the bottom so growing kids won't get their heads stuck(if the aren't disbudded or naturally poled). 



			
				MomMommyMamma said:
			
		

> If we get 1 doe and 1 .wether...
> We'll have to have the doe bred to get the milk. At what age do you usually have them bred? Is this a really expensive thing to do? And then, when you wean the kid - I guess we would just try to sell the kid? Boy, my kids are unhappy when we sell a chicken, I don't think they'll like selling a goat much lol!  With milking, how long will the doe continue to produce milk?


It is preferred that a doe not be bred  until she is at least 1 yr old, preferably not until she is 2. If you only get 1 doe and 1 whether, than you may have to incur the cost of renting a sire. It all depends on if you are getting registered goats, want good kid conformation, or if you are only breeding for freshening. 
Selling the kids can be hard. Just make sure before hand that a plan is made as to what is happening with the kid/kids. If it is understood that kids are going to be sold, then perhaps your children could be given the job of preparing them for sale. It might make it a little easier for them if they know that they have that responsibility.  
It really depends on the doe, as to how long she will milk for. Some does are continuous milkers without having to freshen them... although this is a rarety. If you want to be able to milk her every year, then you can freshen her each year.


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 28, 2011)

Thanks Livinwright Farm! So will they milk for a few months? 6 mo? Just an estimated "on average" is all I'm looking for. It ties into the decision of the expense of the breeding. We were hoping to get them as young as possible and raise them with a lot of contact so that they will be very comfortable with all of us. I didn't realize it would be 1-2 yrs. before breeding. Very helpful!
So, are goats as addictive as chickens? 
We started out with 7 and now have about 25 in the pen, a broody w/ her chicks in the garage, and 25 eggs in the incubator.


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## Livinwright Farm (Feb 28, 2011)

MomMommyMamma said:
			
		

> Thanks Livinwright Farm! So will they milk for a few months? 6 mo? Just an estimated "on average" is all I'm looking for. It ties into the decision of the expense of the breeding. We were hoping to get them as young as possible and raise them with a lot of contact so that they will be very comfortable with all of us. I didn't realize it would be 1-2 yrs. before breeding. Very helpful!
> So, are goats as addictive as chickens?
> We started out with 7 and now have about 25 in the pen, a broody w/ her chicks in the garage, and 25 eggs in the incubator.


No problem! Yes, a few months at least... some will milk for 6+ months. I would call 5 months an average, but I hope Emmet's Dairy will pipe in on this one... they have more experience with milking. 
If you get them young, and they are a little skiddish, RAISINS!!  No kid can say no to raisins! they may spit the first one out if given whole. but if you cut it open so they taste the sweetness, they will come begging for more! gradually start petting/stroking them while they are with you. 
After a week or so of treating them for coming to you.. go a day or so without the treat, just your scritches and stroking. Hint: all goats go weak if you gently scrub their neck-line down their chest, an area they can't scratch. Be carefull when going to scritch their heads. this is the one area they CANT see, and so they get frightened. 
To start head scritching: wiggle a finger to get their attention, then use this wiggling finger to start scritching the side of their mouth and the side of their nose(also areas they can't scratch). then slowly work the scritching back along their jaw line towards their ears. You want to do this slowly, as some will be spooked. Start using your finger nails around the base of their ear and slowly move to around/inbetween their horn nubs. This is a very itchy place on a goat, and their hooves just don't cut it.
Yes, goats are just as addictive(if not more so) as chickens!! You might be able to get by with just 2, but I think you will find it hard to keep only 2!


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## julieq (Feb 28, 2011)




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## chandasue (Feb 28, 2011)

> If we get 1 doe and 1 wether...
> We'll have to have the doe bred to get the milk. At what age do you usually have them bred? Is this a really expensive thing to do? And then, when you wean the kid - I guess we would just try to sell the kid? Boy, my kids are unhappy when we sell a chicken, I don't think they'll like selling a goat much lol!  With milking, how long will the doe continue to produce milk?


That would be a good combo to break yourself in easy to milking. 

For ND's they aren't typically bred until they're close to a year old depending on their size, and don't breed to a standard sized buck, as they might develop babies that are too big to birth. If there's a lot of ND breeders near by you'll likely find someone that offers very reasonable buck service. I pay $35 to get mine bred, which I think is very fair to have registrable babies. I pull the babies at birth and bottle feed them so I can be greedy with the milk. A lot of people around here want babies that they can bottle feed so it works for me. Once they've been on mama it's hard to get them to take a bottle, so you'd either keep them until she's weaned them or pull them right at birth to get them on bottles. Babies have a way of multiplying if you don't sell them, just reassure the kids that there will always be more babies in the future. The first freshening is not usually a big production year and you don't really know what they'll produce until they've had 3 kiddings. Their lactation cycles can really vary so if you want them to be outstanding milkers be sure to buy from a breeder that is pushing for production, rather than "pet" quality.


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## MomMommyMamma (Feb 28, 2011)

I've looked at Craigslist and also at Best Farm Buy. Tell me what some red flags are in listings. What should make me NOT want to buy from someone. I saw one ad,


> I Am Selling One Of My Bred Pigmy Goats, She's At Least A Month away. Bought her bred so i dont kno the definite due date. $65 email if interested. Thanks


I'm thinking 1) why would you buy & sell the animal so quickly, 2) why would you buy a bred goat not knowing the EDC...
Yes? Or are these all "normal" circumstances?


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## chandasue (Feb 28, 2011)

I'd pass on that one too. Seems questionable unless she's just getting picked on too much by the others. It's hard to know who's really honest. Vet papers showing negative tests are good although I've heard of people even faking those. And not everyone tests but they may very well have healthy animals. Going to look at the goats and the overall herd health is next best if you know what to look for. You could also have a vet go look them over before you buy. Most people will go along with that and some will hold the animal if you want to pay for any testing.


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## Livinwright Farm (Feb 28, 2011)

It could be that she has:
1) an existing herd of  hornless goats and this doe is horned
2 and existing herd of horned goats and this doe is hornless
3)health issues
4) doe had an ultrasound and it was discovered she was having more kids than was wanted.
5) got the doe home and DH said "No more"
It is really hard to tell.


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