# Snakebite and guardian dogs what should I do?



## Blue Sky (Feb 2, 2016)

Weve been very lucky with only two bites in several years but because of last year's rain and our new pond, I'm expecting a snakey spring. I worry about water moccasins and rattlers. I understand that some of the antivenins are cost prohibitive are there other treatments?


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## Southern by choice (Feb 2, 2016)

We mostly have copperheads and we haven't needed to do anything. 
Not many other snake issue here.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 2, 2016)

Thought of this a minute after posting- we had a goat (Alpine) go stickin' her nose somewhere she shouldn't have and got stung... on the face! BAD!!!!!!!! Her head and face swelled up so bad and down her throat, we had to take off her collar so she wouldn't strangle... vet had us give Benedryl- we had to give it for 3 days the swelling took a long time to go down...

We did give benedryl to a dog once for bee sting on the nose and it swelled.


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## Blue Sky (Feb 2, 2016)

Yup I have a Miss Nosey  (pyr) who is relieved of her collar spring thru fall.


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## babsbag (Feb 2, 2016)

It is my understanding that Benedryl will not work with a snakebite. The swelling is not an allergic reaction. A dog is more likely to survive a bite if they are bit on the face or an extremity as the swelling will actually work as a tourniquet and stop the spread of the venom. Of course getting bit on the face can cause airway issues so that is a big concern. 

You might look into snake aversion training. I had it done with my Border Collies 8 years ago and while it should be "touched" up each year I believe that it saved their life this year when a rattler was in their kennel and they stayed about 15' away and barked like crazy. Can think of no other reason for that behavior, they will take on a cat, rat, chicken, lizard, etc. so why not a snake? 

My LGD and one of her pups did get bit this year but fortunately it was either a young snake that didn't release its venom entirely or God was just watching out for them. Other than some slight swelling their was no lingering damage, and rattlesnake bites can cause quite a bit of tissue necrosis; we were very lucky.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 2, 2016)

babsbag said:


> young snake that didn't release its venom entirely


Babs I think you had a typo cuz I know you know this but thought I'd put it out for others that may not know

*Young snakes CANNOT* control their venom so they are MORE dangerous- they give a FULL VENOM bite. Unless it was already used up at the time of strike and not built back up it will release all venom.
*Mature snakes CAN* control the venom and amount, usually the first strike is a DRY bite... the second they will release venom but will control amount.

A few years back I had 2 children bit by copperheads, two different occasions. One snake was mature, although venom detected it was considered dry bite. The other bite came from a baby copperhead, on my daughters toe.... full venom... leg swelled, discolored... the color took well over a year to return to normal. The swelling was severe at the ankle but wasn't too bad going up... but it did go up to the thigh. Took weeks for it to go down.

Or cat had 3 different occasions of copperhead bites. 
We do have a kind of rattler here and I know I came across one once... but thankfully no real serious issues...


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## Scooby308 (Feb 2, 2016)

Copperheads are our biggest threat, although there are plenty of rattlers here that you never see. Dad's dog got bit this past year. She came in limping and with her lower leg swollen huge. He had me check it and I found the puncture marks. They were so wide I figured it had to be a rattler. They took her to the vet and he said copperhead, but it had to be a monster. They drained it and gave her steroids and antibiotics.

The average length for a full grown copperhead is about 3 feet. I did not know that. I killed one while bushhogging one year that was every bit of 4 feet. Had I known, after I shot him I wouldn't have ran the bushhog over him, but called fish and game to measure him. We have killed several on this farm in the last two years. Starting fencing in the scary woods is...well....scary. Dad's farm is across the road from mine. More woods, but same habitat. He killed one baby last year. The only one he's had in about 20 years. And I've averaged 5+ a year for the last 4 years.


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## babsbag (Feb 2, 2016)

I asked my vet about a dry strike and she said that there would be no swelling at all if it was a dry strike so I guess that rules that out. She also didn't really buy into the "young snake more dangerous". She believes that younger snakes just have less venom. IDK, I am no snake expert and really hope I never have the chance to compare bites.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 3, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I asked my vet about a dry strike and she said that there would be no swelling at all if it was a dry strike so I guess that rules that out. She also didn't really buy into the "young snake more dangerous". She believes that younger snakes just have less venom. IDK, I am no snake expert and really hope I never have the chance to compare bites.



Yeah, the dry bite my son had - no swelling. We did circle the bite area with sharpie marker so when we got to the ER they could see how much swelling for the amount of time. The puncture itself, because it is a puncture, will swell but it is isolated. It never went beyond the circled area. They just cleaned it and sent him home.

Young snakes do have less they just can't control it so it ends up being full venom bite.

@Scooby308  - whenever we put new fencing up through the woods we encounter a lot! Once the fence goes up and the dogs go in they leave... so far anyway. That is how my son got bit. We were putting up new fencing- he was told to stay IN the already fenced area ... he dis-obeyed...  sometimes kids learn there are consequences the hard way, thankfully it was a dry bite.


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## Robbin (Feb 3, 2016)

Toli has been bitten 3 times, twice on the nose, face got badly swollen, last one was probably a pygmy rattler on the ankle.  That was by far the worst.  Our vet said there is little they can do unless you are sure of the type of snake.  He was miserable for 48 hours, but no worse for ware.  I read their is a shot they can give them that improves survival rates, but it's something they have to get in advance.  I'm going to check on that this spring when he goes in for his shots.  Vet says size matters.  big difference between a 10 pound dog getting bit and Toli at 140.


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## animalmom (Feb 3, 2016)

I vaccinate my three dogs each year with the rattlesnake vaccine, period, not up for discussion with DH just pay the vet type of action.  I've had the dogs get bit by rattlesnakes and the vaccine does make the bite less dangerous.   One dog got bit on the muzzle that fortunately drained into the sinuses.  She was very swollen for a while but recovered.  Vet said it was lucky she got struck where she did because based on the width of the two fang hole it had to have been a large snake.  She didn't have the vaccine.  Another dog was bit on the leg, had the vaccine earlier in the year and had very little swelling.  Could be she didn't get much venom, but I'll swear by the vaccine.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 3, 2016)

wow!
yeah.. not moving to TX


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## Mike CHS (Feb 4, 2016)

I didn't know they even had a vaccine for rattlesnakes.  I have seen several copper heads but no rattlesnakes yet.  Neighbors say they are supposedly around but haven't seen any.


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## samssimonsays (Feb 4, 2016)

I had watched a show once on a guy who removed snakes and dangerous animals in California area and The one family called him in as a large rattle snake had bit their dog and it didn't survive. He came out and got it, the thing was massive and he told them about the vaccine. He also said once someone/thing is bit they have a heightened immunity to it?  the body is already exposed to the venom and it aids in how the body responds to it or something like that. I am unsure exactly how true this is but I knew several people who swore by the vaccine when they lived in arizona as well.


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## Timberdoodle (Feb 18, 2016)

Blue Sky said:


> Weve been very lucky with only two bites in several years but because of last year's rain and our new pond, I'm expecting a snakey spring. I worry about water moccasins and rattlers. I understand that some of the antivenins are cost prohibitive are there other treatments?



You all may hate me for a non PC answer but, frankly I would prefer to teach the dogs Avoidance training. The fastest and best way to accomplish this is with...GASP.....a shock collar. It takes only a few seconds of discomfort for a lifetime of protection against snakes. Done correctly, it takes only 3 or 4 times shocked to ingrain a snake avoidance mentality. I've spent countless hours hunting over dogs in the Arizona desert, rattlesnakes are a daily and ever present fact of life there. All my dogs were trained on snake Avoidance, I NEVER had a single dog bit in all our encounters. Like I said earlier, an ounce of prevention and discomfort up front is worth a pound of cure and pain the dog lives with if bitten and envenomated. One taught, the avoidance lasted a lifetime, the dogs would yield huge tracts of land just to get around/by any snake encountered. My neighbor once chastised me for being so "cruel" to my dogs for using a shock collar to teach this concept.....until she showed up on my door step one evening asking me help to carry her snakebit Boxer out of the forest. The Boxer lived the short term and died of kidney failure 2 years later...connected?....maybe. Why jump to treatments when there is a preventative option????


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## Southern by choice (Feb 18, 2016)

This is one time I do think the proper use of a shock collar is acceptable. However avoidance training only goes so far with LGD's. The reality is they are on the move and running through woods etc they can still get bit so if there is a vaccine that can help why not.

My son got bit by a copperhead running through the woods. 
Our cat same thing.

Rattlers are flat out scary.


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## Timberdoodle (Feb 18, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> This is one time I do think the proper use of a shock collar is acceptable. However avoidance training only goes so far with LGD's. The reality is they are on the move and running through woods etc they can still get bit so if there is a vaccine that can help why not.
> 
> My son got bit by a copperhead running through the woods.
> Our cat same thing.
> ...



I've lived/worked/hunted/recreated around almost all the N American venomous snakes. I'll take rattlesnakes any day over Copperheads and Water Moccasins. A majority of rattlesnakes will do their level best to get out of your way and give ample warning before a strike. There are exceptions (Mojave rattlesnake) but, by and large, I'm more comfortable around rattlesnakes than the others.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 18, 2016)

Timberdoodle said:


> I've lived/worked/hunted/recreated around almost all the N American venomous snakes. I'll take rattlesnakes any day over Copperheads and Water Moccasins. A majority of rattlesnakes will do their level best to get out of your way and give ample warning before a strike. There are exceptions (Mojave rattlesnake) but, by and large, I'm more comfortable around rattlesnakes than the others.



LOL - copperheads are pretty harmless as far as venomous snakes... we have had LOTS of bites... humans, cats, dogs


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## Latestarter (Feb 18, 2016)

Copperheads are the least toxic of the venomous snakes in North America. But they CAN be pretty danged mean for their size. Probably the most toxic drop for drop is the northern pacific rattlesnake which has recently been proven to be developing neuro toxicity to add to it's already potent hemo toxic venom. One of the bad rattlers over on the south eastern seaboard is the cane break rattler... they are smaller than a diamondback or copperhead and sneaky! They have a very powerful venom also.

In other news, it has also been documented that rattle snakes are "learning" that announcing their presence can and often does lead to death and therefore are "learning" to NOT announce their presence when humans are about. Obviously this can be detrimental to the human who is counting on being notified when he/she is getting too close to said rattle snake. I have come stumbling down mountain hiking trails and found rattlers lying perfectly still, right across the trail, and they haven't MOVED, let alone rattled, until I touched/moved them with a stick at which point they shot off the trail and started rattling like crazy and hissing and striking. They HAD to have felt the vibrations of my approach and froze hoping I wouldn't notice them. Not a warm fuzzy feeling to experience.

It is also my understanding that being bitten by a young snake will almost always be a full venom bite where as an adult can and does control its venom and prefers to NOT use it except when trying for a prey kill or left no other choice... like being pestered by a dog (that doesn't know any better) or a "kid" (deliberately messing with it or running too close and not paying attention).

I very much like and appreciate snakes... ALL snakes... and do not kill them under virtually any circumstances.


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## Mike CHS (Feb 19, 2016)

A little side story from when I was about 16 years old.  I was squirrel hunting in the hills outside of the sleepy little town (at that time  ) of Branson Missouri with an elderly gent that I often worked for.  We were walking along a rocky ledge and he frantically said FREEZE and DO NOT MOVE.  I stopped and looked at him confused and he was looking down at the ground.  I had stepped over one of the biggest rattle snakes that I had ever seen and I felt fear for the first time in my young life.  As soon as I stopped moving my friend and boss shot the head off of that thing and I think I jumped about 5 feet backward at the same time.


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