# Update: She didn't make it. Thanks for all the help!



## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

There are no large animal vets working today - but the tech was going to try to get one of them to call me soon...
But I am looking for some "goat people" experience!

Last night, my yearling doe started getting dog log type poops. Normal color, just wet. I figured it was just because she was turned out on pasture for a few hours after no being out since Monday. I gave her a baking soda ball and called it good.
I KNOW she hasn't gotten into anything. Feed wise, she gets 1 cup of hi-line dairy pellets a day, however much hay she wants, and grazing. This morning I went out to find explosive poop. She was covered, and her 2 companions had splatters. She is acting a little off, but not "sick"...more like a tummy ache. Her temp is 102.8.

So I go out to feed the bottle kids - who are almost 2 months old (they are also in a pen with 3 month, and 4 month olds) The boy was fine, the girl hesitated to take her bottle, but still took it. I looked at her back end, and she was covered in the same kind of runny poop. I didn't get to take her temp though.

A few things to add - they are normal colored poops on both goats. More of a brown/black ish (like their pellets usually are) than a yellow-ish or BLACK. These two goats with the same symptoms are on OPPOSITE sides of the farm. They never have contact with each other, so these may be by coincidence that they happened at the same time. The older doe isn't eating as much hay as normal, but she normally doesn't eat much hay after grazing anyway. The kid is acting fine. 

Other than these 2, everyone else is normal - no gross poop, or acting weird...

Anyone have any advice??

Thanks in advance!


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## DonnaBelle (Jun 11, 2011)

Do you have some Probios gel on hand??  It will help if their ruman is messed up. 

DonnaBelle


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

I have some pro-bio powder...could I just mix that up with a little water in a syringe and give it that way?


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## DonnaBelle (Jun 11, 2011)

I don't see why not.  I like the Probios gel because it's easy to give to them.  Mine will lick it off the tube and want more!!

When you get a chance, get a tube of the gel and keep it on hand.

DonnaBelle


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2011)

I top dress our goat's feed w/ probiotic powder, but if she's already eaten, then yeah, you can mix a bit w/ water and syringe it.

In this type of weather, barring dietary change and fever / other signs of illness (bacterial enteritis), I would imagine it's cocci *or* another parasite.

Fecal asap, and if you can't, I'd by golly give 'em dimethox NOW and probably a triple dose of safeguard to boot....keep up the dimethox for 5-7 days (I'd go 7) and treat *all* the kids and maybe the yearlings as well.


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## elevan (Jun 11, 2011)

The poo color and explosiveness sound like when my girl, Diva, had cocci...

And they have been in contact with each other...the transfer comes most likely from YOU...you can carry things from one pen to another on your shoes.

I would go ahead and start them on a cocci treatment since I wouldn't want to wait until Monday to get a fecal.  I would do as Roll suggested and use Di-Methox (or CoRid or Albon) and Safeguard.  When Diva had cocci, she was loaded with them and also had tapeworms to boot!

Best of luck to you and I hope your kids feel better quickly.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

Well - our vet said to just give them the animal equivalent of pepto (I can't remember the name..Pectate or something like that?) and stop giving them their bottle until it clears up, but to me, that seems to just be covering the problem not fixing it. 
Could they get cocci that young though? I thought it was a later thing (I'm not questioning your knowledge, I have just never dealt with it before!)...
I will have to run to the feed store tomorrow morning for the di-methox. I saw it the other day, and told myself I should pick up a bottle just in case...Should have listened to myself 
Just for future reference - what does the safegaurd do? 

I was almost wondering if the yearling got into something that didn't bother the 2 milkers, because they are used to pasture, and by feeding the milk to the kids, they got the same effect? It sounds reasonable...seeing how it is only those 3 (yes, the boy has it now too). The rest of the goats are still looking fine. 

I wont be able to run a fecal to the vet until Monday - if those 3 do have a high count, should I treat the whole herd?

thanks again guys!


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

Just realized you did mention treating everyone  Sorry! 

So just the younger goats? The 2 and 5 year old should be fine?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jun 11, 2011)

I am assuming what your vet mentioned was Kaolin Pectin which is much gentler, Ph wise, on their sensitive rumens than Kaopectate. This will coat the rumen and help it recover.
I second giving them all some form of Probiotic, even if it is just plain yogurt. Goat's Prefer Probiotic Power(sold @ TSC) has the highest count of the good bacterial flora.
I would also give them pedialyte or the animal equivalent, just to make sure that they are not getting severely dehydrated ontop of the Ph/diarhea issues.

I second your vets advice about keeping the kids off of the bottles until this clears up, as the milk could make it worse. :/


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2011)

I greatly disagree w/ your vet.  Stopping them up w/ out finding out / fixing what caused the poops (and it is NOT normal for 4 goats out of 6 or 8 to get the poops at once) to begin with is a bad idea.

Cocci has a 3 wk life cycle...Theoretically, if the kid's been on this earth for at least 3 wks, it can 'have' coccidiosis.  At 8 wks, they could be on their 2nd round...Cocci can damage the intestinal lining and stop them from absorbing any nutrients.  The sooner stopped, the better!

If a kid here gets the poos or goes off feed after 3 wks of age, I treat for cocci and it has, in every case, 'fixed' the problem.
DiMethox is also an antibiotic, so even if it were bacterial, it would still likely help.

Something I think you're having a problem 'seeing' is that ANYONE can have a goat w/ coccidiosis.  It's not 'bad', it doesn't mean you're doing something wrong, and it's not a reflection on you / your farm / practices.
Goats carry cocci in their systems (as do dogs, chickens, etc.).  

It's only a problem when they are young, until they can build immunity to it (which they *usually* do by the time they're a year old - but, a heavy worm load, illness, etc. can cause a "bloom" and make them sick then, too).

I would think that a 2 and 5 yr old goat would have sufficient immunity built up.  They still 'have' cocci in their systems, but they're well-functioning mature immune systems help them keep it from 'blooming' and making them sick.

As far as the safeguard, it's a mild dewormer (one of the 'white' ones) that works well only on tapeworms, at 2 or 3 x the label dose, for 3 days in a row....I've never had any luck treating barberpole worm w/ it.
BUT....Helmstead says she's also used it for cocci treatment as it's an antiprotozoal - cocci are a protazoal parasite, NOT a worm.

And...finally...if you do treat the kids (And I think you should, very much so), a fecal may not give you very accurate results, esp. if you use safeguard (which, by the way, is a very, very safe dewormer...I've given up to 4x the dose in young kids before and never had a problem) along w/ the DiMethox.  So by all means have the fecal ran, but it's better to do it before treatment when possible.  In this case, I think it's better to treat / check poop later, since you can't check poop now.

Good luck.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

Thanks  My mum was the one who answered the call (I have been out and running all day!!) so I didn't hear exactly what she wanted us to give. After asking my mum more in depth questions, the vet said to do the pink stuff this weekend 2ce a day, and call on Monday again if it hasn't improved to get a fecal run on them. This vet is only open until 12 on Saturday's without having to pay the emergency weekend fee. 
I have a container of the powdered pro-bios for my dog, so I'll mix a few syringes of that for them tonight as well. Will probably pick up a gel tube of it tomorrow when I go for the Di-Methox. 
Maybe it's just my "normal" logic and not "goat" logic talking, but I would think more than just the 2 bottle babies would have this if it was cocci? My theory of the milk and pasture seems to be the most "logical" to me, but I could be wrong. I usually don't go into the baby pen - I toss their hay over the fence into their hay rack, and dump their grain over the fence into their feed pan. Their water can be accessed from outside as well. Only time I go in is the once every few weeks to clean their shed.

Would treating them with the Di-methox hurt them if they don't actually have it?


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2011)

Also, I feed scouring kids a gelling electrolyte in their bottles (Revitalyte gelling is the brand I buy) if they're having a dietary issue or scouring w/ watery stuff.

1 treatment of DiMethox is usually enough to get them solid again, and I let them have milk if I'm fairly sure the problem is coccidiosis.

If the milk was what caused the problem (changed replacers, etc.) I would agree they shouldn't get milk...but if they do have cocci, milk isn't the problem, and the last thing they need is to have their milk (nutrition) taken away, as long as you are treating the problem.  That is just *my* humble opinion, take it for what its' worth.

Again, that's as long as you're treating them.  If you're going to wait til tomorrow....I dunno what to tell you.  
I've never let mine go, I keep DiMethox on hand.

But milk isn't going to 'make it worse' if it didn't cause the problem to begin with.  Milk is what they're used to...


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

Sorry, we replied at the same time...The feed store closes early on the weekends (I think either 4 or 5) - I will have to pick it up in the early am for them...

Is Revitalyte something at the feed store, or human stuff?

Thanks so much Roll...I'm new to cocci, never had an issue with it! So sorry if I seem to come across being annoying about it.

Just to clarify - it is 3 goats that have it: 2 bottle babies who are on goat's milk, and the doe that is out with the milkers. The yearling has only been here for a few weeks...That's why I was wondering if it was possible that it was just something in the field...I dewormed her about a week ago with ivermectin.

I might actually call the feedstore and see if they are still open...Worth a shot to get the antibiotics into them.


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2011)

Yup...I order revitalyte through Jeffers but TSC's, etc. carry it, too...it's labeled for calves.  I mix 1 tsp per oz of water.


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## elevan (Jun 11, 2011)

Only my doeling, Diva, showed signs of being sick (ie: diarrhea, not herself) but a fecal showed that her and at least 1 other kid had it.  I treated everyone under a year old...so half my herd with Albon Suspension (a form of Di-Methox).  I also treated with safeguard as they showed tapeworms in the fecal.

Ivermectin isn't going to do a thing for cocci or tapeworms, so if it's either of these then your previous deworming treatment isn't a help (didn't hurt, but won't help this situation).

Treating those that aren't showing signs won't hurt them...many herd owners (and myself from now on) give a round of anti-protozoals as a prevention tactic.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

Apparently it was tsc that I saw the Di-methox...They are definitely closed by now...My mum said she would run up there tomorrow for me though.

I picked up some goat electrolyte mix. I'm just going to mix it in their bottles, and leave a pan out for the older doe.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jun 11, 2011)

I believe the one in Ossipee doesn't close until 8pm on Saturday... but not sure if you could get there in time.
You could call them to verify what time they close: 
(603) 539-2736


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 11, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I believe the one in Ossipee doesn't close until 8pm on Saturday... but not sure if you could get there in time.
> You could call them to verify what time they close:
> (603) 539-2736


Thanks for trying-  it takes me an hour to get up there! I gave them all electrolytes and a little more pepto to last the night...Will just run up to the tsc in Chichester in the morning for it...


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 13, 2011)

Just wanted to update:
I have been giving them Corid. Tsc was out of Di-Methox and Albon. 
Out of safeguard as well (seriously, I just saw these things last Thursday - more than 5 bottles on the shelves!)

But good news: I was picking through their stall (I put all 3 sick goats together...) and found some soft pellets!! It's always funny how excited an animal owner is when they find hard poops 
I'm going to have to give all 3 baths when their poops are really solid. They are covered in poop  

Anyway, thanks again for all the help!


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## mossyStone (Jun 13, 2011)

Good news... sounds like you got it under control....

Your right though i'm always happy to see berries in the stalls


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## Roll farms (Jun 13, 2011)

A fine toothed comb should remove *most* of the ick from their fur.

Getting goat poop in fur wet is like getting a gremlin wet...bad news, and seems to multiply.


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## elevan (Jun 13, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> A fine toothed comb should remove *most* of the ick from their fur.
> 
> Getting goat poop in fur wet is like getting a gremlin wet...bad news, and seems to multiply.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 29, 2011)

Figured I would post an update!
Unfortunately, not great news...I treated with Corid this last time for 7 days. Their poops firmed up, and all 3 goats were doing great...Until Monday, when ALL 3 got it again. 
Rushed the doeling to the vet, and they confirmed cocci. They gave me something to treat them with, and sent me on my way. 
The new problem I'm having now - the doeling is VERY weak!!! My mum thought she was dead yesterday when she went out to check her- she was on the ground, barely breathing, and not moving. I had gotten the tractor ready for digging the hole when my mum ran out and said she was still alive.
She can stand on her own, but can't get herself up after laying down. She seems a bit perked up today, but still can't get up on her own.

Last night I gave her nutra-drench (didn't have red cell), pro-bios, and electrolytes.
What else should I give her? How often?

I'm not getting my hopes up yet that she will make it, but I'm not going to give up on her either.
Any advice would be great!


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 29, 2011)

What did they give you this time to treat the cocci?  I know helmstead suggested safeguard (label dose) for five days along with Dimethox when there was a bad case of cocci.  That's what I've been doing to treat my new kiddos.  

I've read before that Corid isn't all that effective at treating cocci unless it's used in mugh higher doses than the label calls for.  It was likely enough to make her feel better for the short term, but not enough to kill it off - then when the Corid was stopped it multiplied greatly.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 30, 2011)

The vet gave me more Corid...9. something %. 

The girl isn't going to make it. Her mouth is cold, she's too weak to move, and she has no swallowing reflex. 

So, I turn to you guys for a last minute something to possibly help her. 
I know she's too far gone, but I'm desperate at this point  She was my herd favorite.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 30, 2011)

I'm so sorry.  I wish I had some good advice for you.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 30, 2011)

I am sorry,   I too, wish I could tell you something you could do.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 30, 2011)

I have not read the entire post, but what do the inside of her lower eyelids look like?  It sounds to me like something is robbing her of minerals.  If the eyelids and gums are pale, I would start my goats on 2 ml of ferrous sulfate either PO or SC and then tomorrow give 2 to 3 ml of Ivermec.  I would continue with the iron supplement for two weeks no matter what and also give a B injection (2 ml) every third day or when her appetite drops.  You can also drench with Red Cell (a horse supplement) if you can't get the ferrous sulfate.  As soon as possible I would start her on a high Mag loose mineral and put her on a well rounded, but high protein feed.  If she won't eat feed try alfalfa cubes.  At this point nothing is a waste. Do everything and everything and record everything that she does and everything that you do. If it works, you have a baseline to go on next time, if it doesn't you know what didn't work.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 30, 2011)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> I have not read the entire post, but what do the inside of her lower eyelids look like?  It sounds to me like something is robbing her of minerals.  If the eyelids and gums are pale, I would start my goats on 2 ml of ferrous sulfate either PO or SC and then tomorrow give 2 to 3 ml of Ivermec.  I would continue with the iron supplement for two weeks no matter what and also give a B injection (2 ml) every third day or when her appetite drops.  You can also drench with Red Cell (a horse supplement) if you can't get the ferrous sulfate.  As soon as possible I would start her on a high Mag loose mineral and put her on a well rounded, but high protein feed.  If she won't eat feed try alfalfa cubes.  At this point nothing is a waste. Do everything and everything and record everything that she does and everything that you do. If it works, you have a baseline to go on next time, if it doesn't you know what didn't work.


She's too far gone for that I believe. She can't pick herself up...She's limp. No eating, can't drink. I shot some electrolytes into her throat, and nearly choked her, gave her some nuti-drench, but that is all I have on hand!
Her eyelids are actually a nice color still.

I'm not expecting her to live (if she hasn't passed in the last half hour that is), and will probably end up euthanizing if she is still alive in the next hour.  I think it's more wishful thinking that she will make it.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jun 30, 2011)

Well at that point, I would start giving an IV solution SC.  We normally give kids up to 10 ml on each side of the rib cage.  You absolutely have to get fluids in her. If you can't get her back on her feet, it is going to be bad.  Also I can take a perfectly healthy goat to the vet and it will often test positive for Cocci.  Since she did not respond permanently to the cocci treatment, as a last resort I would start her on penicillin and continue treating with a high quality pro biotic.

Oh and go to Jefferslivestock.com and order a tube feeder for kids (several actually) they cost less than 3 dollars, but at this point you would have a way to get good fluid into her other than giving IV fluids SC.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 30, 2011)

Her only hope at this point would be IV fluids, probably antibiotics, ect........     I think you can tell yourself you did everything you could and let her go.  

I would order sulfa-dimethoxine on-line and treat the rest of my herd and then do another fecal after that. corid isn't working for you. 

If I orally dose with Corid I like to do it 2 or 3 times a day, instead of just one time.   Did he give you enough to do that?  

I would also get a bottle of Penn G and needles and syringes, if you have any more scouring I would treat with Penn G twice a day. I have had good luck with that helping to bring them around faster. 


spectam scour halt( it might go by a slightly different name) it is a red liquid normally used in scouring pigs,  is also a good bacterial scour drench and if the scours are bad enough or the animal weak enough I often use that with the cocci treatment for a day or two. 

Can't remember what all you had or used in the beginning. 




Griggin: this year we started giving iron shots to any goats that appeared pale. I really think it helped them make a quicker recovery. but she is right this animal is too far gone.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 30, 2011)

I agree with griffin ark, Here at the farm, If I have a kid that can't swollow, tube feeding with sugar water solution and putting IV fluid sub-Q under the skin, Penn G shots(1cc per 15lbs) every 8 hours, would be our approach.  I don't ever use electrolytes, I always use a sugar water solution, with corn syrup, mollasses or propalyn glycol type solution for oral dosing.


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## Ariel301 (Jun 30, 2011)

If you feel comfortable doing so, you could give her fluids subcutaneously. Use unflavored children's Pedialyte, and inject it under the skin over the ribs until she's got sort of a pouch of fluid on each side. Short of giving her an IV, it's going to be the fastest way to get some fluids, electrolytes, and sugar into her system. Sounds like it's probably too late though, poor girl. You'll want to look into keeping your kids on a cocci prevention plan from now on to stop it happening in the future. It's heartbreaking to go through, I have stunted the growth of a good number of kids and lost a few before I found out what was going on and got them on the treatment.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jun 30, 2011)

Sarah posted this on her Facebook status:
*sigh* RIP Jasmine.

& commented:
It really has been one after the other! I'm glad it's not only me...I was starting to get worried. I'll be really ticked off is the other goat dies too...But so far she is looking good. These two were my favorites.

 our farm's condolences to Sarah & her herd.


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## chubbydog811 (Jun 30, 2011)

She didn't make it. Died this morning. 
Thanks for all the help though. I think she was too far gone by the time I found her for any of the advice to have worked. When I found her, she was already cold, no sucking/swallowing reflex, and couldn't move. She was flat out on her side. 
Good thing is now I have a list of things that would be good to have on hand, and if this ever happens again, I will have a better idea of how to prevent it.

Thanks again guys!




ETA Looks like we posted at the same time Jaqueline. Thanks for updating this for me though!


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## elevan (Jun 30, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 30, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.


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## Cooperkeeper (Jun 30, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jun 30, 2011)

chubbydog811 said:
			
		

> She didn't make it. Died this morning.
> Thanks for all the help though. I think she was too far gone by the time I found her for any of the advice to have worked. When I found her, she was already cold, no sucking/swallowing reflex, and couldn't move. She was flat out on her side.
> Good thing is now I have a list of things that would be good to have on hand, and if this ever happens again, I will have a better idea of how to prevent it.
> 
> ...


(((((((  ))))))) Again, I am very sorry you lost her, and no problem. I didn't expect to see you post here today, I know when we lost Cali & her buckling, we didn't want to be on much.


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## Natisha (Jun 30, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## Roll farms (Jun 30, 2011)

I'm sorry.



Definitely get some DiMethox asap, I'd go ahead and treat the other doeling, j.i.c. 

Good luck.


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