# Cydectin injectable...UPDATED w/ more info



## cmjust0 (Jul 29, 2010)

Just got an email.  Short on time right now, but the email was one that.....well, I'm not sure if I'm 'sposed to be privy to it or not, but it basically says FARAD lists a >4mo meat withdrawal following the use of Cyd. Inj.  The SCSRPC is no longer recommending cydectin to be injected.

What I took from it was that residues are in meat for a LONG, LONG TIME despite the fact that it's supposedly out of the blood rather quickly.  My thinking is that if it's in the meat for a long time but is eventually filtered out, then it's gotta be going out by being filtered from the blood...which means it's gotta be in the blood in really small levels for a really long time -- and that's not good.

In fact, that's pretty much how resistance is created.  

There was an 'FYI' on the email which also indicated they were gonna try to run a trial on Cydectin, but couldn't, because they couldn't find any farms where it still worked worth a damn anyway.

The email ended by saying "mox is on its last legs in goats in eastern US either way"..

Soooooooooo...DRENCH IT while it still works.  :/


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## freemotion (Jul 29, 2010)

Hmm, I was gonna buy some on Monday since my buckling's updated fecal is still showing a few too many barberpole eggs.  Not 200 like the first one, but still....should I just re-drench him with Ivomec?


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## cmjust0 (Jul 30, 2010)

If I were buying Cydectin, I'd still buy the injectable.  Not to inject it -- to drench it -- kinda like we buy the Ivomec injectable primarily to use as a drench.  

Reason being, the injectable is 2x as strong as the pour-on and 10x as strong as the oral drench on a mg/ml basis.  The pour-on would be cheaper because you get more than 2x as much for the same money, but I don't care for drenching them with something with 'aromatic 100' in it...friend of mine calls the pour-on version "rotgut cydectin".  

And if you buy the sheep drench...holy moly...dosage is like 1ml/5lbs.  You'd have to give about 30ml to an adult, so a jug of that would go QUICKLY and end up being pretty expensive.

Keep in mind, too, that Cydectin -- moxidectin -- is technically in the macrocyclic lactone class of dewormer, same as ivermectin.  I read a study once which indicated that moxidectin killed like 50% of ivermectin resistant worms, which is why people consider it to be anything from simply _stronger_ to _a whole different class_ (even though it isn't)..  

Still...statistically speaking, while introducing moxidectin to treat ivermectin resistant worms would almost certainly help, it's not likely to amount to anything more than a further 50% reduction.

And, frankly...200 EPG isn't bad at all.  If you haven't used cydectin on your farm in the past and have reason to believe it would still work reasonably well for you, I wouldn't waste it on a goat showing a 200 EPG fecal -- especially if he's acting OK.  I'd just keep an eye on him, watch his eyelids, and retest if he slides down a bit..

That's just me, though.  

EDIT:  Wait, you said buckling...I was thinking adult buck for some reason.  The recommendation for adults, based on what I've read anyway, are as follows:

0-200 -- don't treat.
200-500 -- don't treat, but retest if they slide downhill
500-1000 -- watch closely; deworm according to the animal's condition
>1000 -- definitely deworm


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## freemotion (Jul 30, 2010)

I haven't had to do much worming on my farm at all, I guess I've been pretty fortunate.  Probably because my little herd is based on rescues who survived some pretty severe neglect, producing hardy goats, apparently.  Plus my land was forest when I bought it, so it likely didn't come with much worm egg burden.

The buckling was recently purchased and I've had a lot of trouble with his poo going clumpy and he is still thin.  I have held off on the grain until his poo shapes up, but each time it heads in the right direction, it goes clumpy again.  

He is a purebred Alpine from a dairy herd.  Not a tough little neglected mutt.  This is new territory for me.  I'm used to re-habbing.....

He is obnoxious, alert, playful, hungry.  I'm thinking of a second dose of Ivomec but now.....I'll go by his eyelids.

Maybe I should just start graining him?  He loves his alfalfa pellets but that may be contributing to his clumpy poo, I'm starting to think, as he will now eat those first, then eat hay if he is still hungry.  He prefers it when I cut goldenrod and tie it up to his fence.  Don't always have time.   Gotta get his weight up by the time he comes into rut.  

It may be too late.  My neighbor told me he lured her over to the fence with his cuteness, then pee'd on her foot/leg......twice!   She didn't realize how her foot got wet the first time, then it was obvious the second time as his aim improved....


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## cmjust0 (Jul 30, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I haven't had to do much worming on my farm at all, I guess I've been pretty fortunate.  Probably because my little herd is based on rescues who survived some pretty severe neglect, producing hardy goats, apparently.  Plus my land was forest when I bought it, so it likely didn't come with much worm egg burden.


Barberpoles aren't super at surviving long-term outside the host, so you likely had zero egg/larvae burden when the goats showed up.

As for the hardiness of rescues...that could be a contributing factor.  Those with the strongest/most active cellular immune system WILL tend to survive adverse conditions the longest.

Several of our hybrids, for instance, show ZERO signs of barberpole problems so far this year...deep pink eyelids, awesome coats, etc...while many the purebred nubians are having a rough go of it.  

No surprise, though..  Hybrid vigor is known to have a positive impact on cellular immunity, whereas extensive inbreeding is known to have the opposite effect.

I love me some hybrid mutt goats..  



> The buckling was recently purchased and I've had a lot of trouble with his poo going clumpy and he is still thin.  I have held off on the grain until his poo shapes up, but each time it heads in the right direction, it goes clumpy again.


In my experience, it's rare that a barberpole infestation would cause recurrent clumpies..  Other worms would, though, but most would be killed off by Ivomec........except tapeworm.  Tapeworm would be more likely than barberpole to cause them to be chronically thin, too.  Barberpole generally just causes them to be DEAD when they get to be a serious problem.

If you've not given a benzamidazole class dewormer (safe guard, valbazen, etc) yet, it might be a good idea.  

If you've already done a 1->2 punch with a macrolide and benzamidazole, the clumpies may not be parasite related at all.



> He is a purebred Alpine from a dairy herd.  Not a tough little neglected mutt.  This is new territory for me.  I'm used to re-habbing.....
> 
> He is obnoxious, alert, playful, hungry.  I'm thinking of a second dose of Ivomec but now.....I'll go by his eyelids.
> 
> Maybe I should just start graining him?  He loves his alfalfa pellets but that may be contributing to his clumpy poo, I'm starting to think, as he will now eat those first, then eat hay if he is still hungry.


Hay/graze/browse should be the primary diet...  Supplement with concentrated feed, as needed.  

Personally, I consider alfalfa pellets to be a concentrated feed in so much as it's bagged...and nature didn't design goats to eat from a bag.



> He prefers it when I cut goldenrod and tie it up to his fence.  Don't always have time.   Gotta get his weight up by the time he comes into rut.
> 
> It may be too late.  My neighbor told me he lured her over to the fence with his cuteness, then pee'd on her foot/leg......twice!   She didn't realize how her foot got wet the first time, then it was obvious the second time as his aim improved....


Uh, ya...he's there.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 30, 2010)

Ok, so..  I talked to a buddy of mine who just talked to the guy I emailed (lost yet?!  ) and he said the guy told him that it was basically just SCSRPC not wanting to fight with USDA/FARAD on the withdrawal times.

:/

With that in mind, I went back and read the original email again...kinda looks that way, and NOW I KNOW WHY.  :/

The original email was a bit cryptic...intended for those "in the know" and lacking context.  What I've learned since then is that the original recommendation to use injectable Cydectin was based on some pharmacokinetic studies which indicated that blood levels of Cydectin were about 5x higher when injected than when drenched.

Most of us go...duh...that only makes sense.  So what?

Well, they took that to mean it worked better.  

_Period._ 

They _totally ignored the possibility that moxidectin also works by direct-contact with the worms as it washes through the abomasum on its way out!_

Thing is, ANY INJECTABLE is going to look better than almost ANY DRENCH when you look at it strictly in that way, because ANY INJECTABLE is going to achieve higher blood levels than ANY DRENCH -- regardless of how well one kills, versus another.  

PERIOD.

In other words, you could have a drench version of something that achieves a 100% kill with zero blood levels versus an injectable version of it which achieves high blood levels with a 0% kill -- and the injectable would be deemed to have a "superior pharmacokinetic profile" based on pharmacokinetics.

That's just NUTS, and we all know it..  

We know what happens when we inject things like Ivomec versus drenching with it...injecting doesn't work worth a damn.  We *know* that because we've done it, and we know what happens -- but still, it's *not* just heresay and anecdotal "in the field" observation, either:



			
				http://dutchfarmint.com/Ivermectin.pdf said:
			
		

> ORAL DRENCH FORMULATION:
> This formulation has been shown to result in *lower systemic
> availability* of the parent compounds compared with the subcutaneous treatment (Marriner et al., 1987; Imperiale et al., 2004; Lespine et al., 2004). *Nevertheless, some experimental data in sheep have shown that ML had a higher efficacy when given orally compared to subcutaneous route *for both susceptible (Borgsteede, 1993) and resistant nematode strains (Gopal et al., 2001; Alka et al., 2004).  In another study by Lespine et al. (2005) ivermectin provided similar efficacy against T. colubriformis after subcutaneous or oral administration in goats. However, on the basis of the lower ivermectin levels in tissues after oral administration it was suggested that the duration of efficacy may be shortened after oral compared to subcutaneous administration especially in animals with poor body condition in pasture where re-infection occurs quickly after anthelmintic treatment.


Get all that?  Ok, considering Cydectin with all that in mind:

1)  It's an "ML" (macrolide), just like the ivermectin mentioned above.

2)  We shouldn't strictly care about blood levels -- we must look at the whole picture and all of each dewormer's killing capacity, including direct contact.

3)  Given a barberpole's ability to adapt to dewormers, I DON'T WANT "PERSISTENT ACTIVITY," BECAUSE I *DEFINITELY* DON'T WANT 'LOW-DOSE CYDECTIN' IN MY GOATS' TISSUE AND BLOOD FOR 130-140 DAYS.

So there ya have it.  Needless to say, ya, I'll be drenching Cydectin from now on.  Never, ever, ever again will I inject it.  Ever.


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## Roll farms (Jul 30, 2010)

I been trying to tell ya.....


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## cmjust0 (Aug 2, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I been trying to tell ya.....


Wha?!  When?!?!!?

I coulda sworn you were using it as an injectable..


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## Roll farms (Aug 2, 2010)

Nope, I've been saying, "The withdrawal time is too long / blood levels are too low if it's injected, use it orally" from the get-go...but I didn't have a 20 dollar explanation that got your attention, lol.


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## helmstead (Aug 2, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Nope, I've been saying, "The withdrawal time is too long / blood levels are too low if it's injected, use it orally" from the get-go...but I didn't have a 20 dollar explanation that got your attention, lol.


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## cmjust0 (Aug 3, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Nope, I've been saying, "The withdrawal time is too long / blood levels are too low if it's injected, use it orally" from the get-go...but I didn't have a 20 dollar explanation that got your attention, lol.


I honestly don't remember seeing that..   

I'd been thinking it, too, which is why I set of on my epic quest for truth and knowledge..  ..but I can't help but think that if I'd run across just *one* knowledgable person who agreed with me -- amid the countless other "experts" who were recommending it as an injection -- that would have been enough for me NEVER to have injected it.

The good news is that I only gave it as an injection to a handful, and I've since gone back and re-dosed it orally at about the time when they say the blood levels are coming down..  I'm hoping that translates to a kill for whichever worms were OK with low-levels...which I'm hoping will translate into not having given myself a pasture full of cydectin-resistant larvae.

At this point, though...well, you and I have discussed the little plan I've hatched for the off season, as it were.    So I'm basically just trying to get through the rest of the summer without too many big bad worm issues (so far, so good -- knock knock) until the first frost.....and then...._we wait._

Mwuahahahahahaa...


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