# Horns vs. No horns. What do you like best?



## KWAK (Feb 12, 2013)

I'm thinking about letting my kids (when they are born) keep there horns?
What do you do? Why?


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## Boysmom08 (Feb 12, 2013)

IMHO, I like leaving them the way nature intended. I have 2 does that have horns and I use them to help when giving oral meds. I was recently asked if I was going to dis bud my baby and had to think about it for awhile,  I just had to learn the safe way to handle them so I didn't get the business end of things. They also use them to scratch that itch on their backs.


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## goodhors (Feb 12, 2013)

Easier to get the animal hung up on stuff, sticking head thru holes and horns snagging
so they can't get back out.  We saw some goats hung up in a fence that way, stopped
to tell the people.  

Really no reason to leave horns on, when they are weapons that can be turned against
you.  Even the nicest goat has bad moments, we hear about it often!  Goats will still bunt 
heads hornless, though they don't always bunt the farm fixtures quite so much hornelss.  Hate
hearing about doors being battered or bashed walls.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 12, 2013)

I will always leave my goats with horns on. I have Kiko meat goats. They're known for those horns!! I feel that if a goat is born with horns then leave them on. Goats are just as easily handled with horns as without and goats don't just go around hitting you or people or each other as people make them out to do. All my goats are very aware of their horns are are just fine with them. They don't hurt me or each other.

Also, please do not ever disbud meat goats. It's like a sin. Diary goats, ok sure you do that. Your choice. But please not meat goats. Meat goats SHOULD have horns.


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## babsbag (Feb 12, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I will always leave my goats with horns on. I have Kiko meat goats. They're known for those horns!! I feel that if a goat is born with horns then leave them on. Goats are just as easily handled with horns as without and goats don't just go around hitting you or people or each other as people make them out to do. All my goats are very aware of their horns are are just fine with them. They don't hurt me or each other.
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> Also, please do not ever disbud meat goats. It's like a sin. Diary goats, ok sure you do that. Your choice. But please not meat goats. Meat goats SHOULD have horns.


But my meat goats live with my dairy goats; and I get tired of getting heads out of stock panels. I have some boers with horns and some without and when I am grabbing a goat by the collar I hate having them raise their head up and smash my fingers between horns and collar. Sorry, if they are staying on my ranch, and not going into the show ring, the horns have to go. Just easier for this old lady to deal with. 

My boer buck does have his horns and I will admit that they make good "steering wheels"


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 22, 2013)

KWAK said:
			
		

> I'm thinking about letting my kids (when they are born) keep there horns?
> What do you do? Why?


What kind of goats do you have and what is there purpose?

We have Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats and show them in ADGA shows.  You cannot show any dairy goat breed in ADGA shows with horns.

With that said, we sell our kids as registered, and we feel that it is better to disbud those for sell as well, because you do not know what a potential buy will want.  There is definitely a larger market of people who do not want horns.

If none of this applies to your situation, it would be fine to leave the horns on if that what you choose to do.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 22, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I will always leave my goats with horns on. I have Kiko meat goats. They're known for those horns!! I feel that if a goat is born with horns then leave them on. Goats are just as easily handled with horns as without and goats don't just go around hitting you or people or each other as people make them out to do. All my goats are very aware of their horns are are just fine with them. They don't hurt me or each other.
> 
> Also, please do not ever disbud meat goats. It's like a sin. Diary goats, ok sure you do that. Your choice. But please not meat goats. Meat goats SHOULD have horns.


Gonna disagree with this one on personal experience.   We have had meat goats pop a dairy goat's udder.  The doe we just took in is also with ZERO provocation walking up to me and gouging me with her horns. Seriously no reason.  And there is a big difference between "I'm itching my head on you and oops" and one that is going for impact.  It doesn't matter where she is in the pen. From a good 40ft away she walked up and started gouging me with horns.  She's getting banded this weekend. It is completely unacceptable. 


Our cashmere goats keep their horns though.  As well as our Boer doe.  Neither use them on people and the fiber goats need them for cooling.  


  It's a hotly debated topic and you have to do what works best for YOUR farm and YOUR buyers. There is not and will never be one right answer.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 22, 2013)

I still strongly believe that meat goats should have there horns. Dairy? Fine take them off but keep them on meat goats. Just MHO

btw 99.999999999999% of meat goat buyers want their goats with horns. I have never in my life seen people that are in the meat goat side of things that remove all their goat's horns.


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## SheepGirl (Feb 22, 2013)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> Our cashmere goats keep their horns though.  As well as our Boer doe.  Neither use them on people and the fiber goats need them for cooling.


Maybe goats are different, but I have to disagree as I have polled sheep that do not overheat and they survived pretty well this past summer in 1-2 wks straight of 100+ degree temps just by staying in the shade.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 22, 2013)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

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Yeah goats are. Removing fiber goat's horns is not wise and horns do ALOT to help goats regulate heat. Goats should have horns.


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## Mamaboid (Feb 22, 2013)

As with most goat things, there is no right or wrong answer.  We raise Myotonics and also have some dairy for our own   milking needs.  We have polled, dehorned, and horned all together with no problems.  I personally will never disbud any of our goats.  I have no problem if somebody wants to buy one of ours and pay to have it done, or do it themselves after the sale, but I will never do it.  I am not squeamish about too many things, but this is just something I will never do myself.  I personally like horns better.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 22, 2013)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

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Cashmere goats w/o horns don't handle heat as well as cashmere goats with horns.  However, if one starts using their horns on people... either they go or the horns do.


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## woodsie (Feb 22, 2013)

I think it really depends what you are going to do with them and what your situation is....we have always had horns and just recently got two Nubian does that had been disbudded. I must say that I breathe much easier when my kids are playing with the hornless does than the ones with the horns....we let the goats out for some romp around time and to "play" with them and it is just too scary to have goofy goats running around with my kids when their horns are right at eye level....and while I am always supervising the interactions with the hornless goats as well but it is much easier when there aren't sharp pointy things waving around eye level of my kids either.


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## redtailgal (Feb 22, 2013)

My goats are all horned, mostly because I don't care if they have horns or not so I dont see the need in putting them thru the dehorning process.

One of the reasons I don't care is that I wouldn't feel safer around de-horned goats........Maybe my goats are strange, I don't know.  But when they butt, they drop their head and butt with the top of their head.  There is very little horn involved at all, AND they are all hard headed enough that they could knock me silly even without horns.  So, I've taught my goats a VERY valuable life lesson.........it's really really not cool to head butt mom.

All the horns here point backward, making it near impossible to "gore" anyone.  Cattle horns are different, they point forward and the bull will actually "take aim" to gore.  There is a big difference between head butting and goring and each needs to be handled differently.

We also havent had any problems with any goats getting caught in the fence either.  I'm sorta snotty about it when they get "caught".  I dont rescue them.  I let them stand there and holler and be good and miserable while they figure it out themselves.  My goats no longer stick their head where it doesnt belong. (I do keep watch on them to make sure they dont get hurt and would help one if I was confident it couldnt get loose.  I wouldnt be nice about helping, though)

I agree with the others that have said its just a matter of personal preference.  Disbudding is not for me, and I dont have any issue with goat horns.  So, we have horns.  I do get some enjoyment from their horns, as strange as it sounds.  My wether, Socrates, LOVES to "horn a tree", and makes scrapes very similar to what a deer does.  It's so funny to watch him do this as he take absolute DELIGHT in making his scrape, by taking a small sapling and getting it between his horns and rubbing the bark off with an up and down motion and a little side to side wiggle, all while grunting like a pig.

Sorry, my life wouldnt be complete without seeing him "horn" these trees!


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 22, 2013)

> One of the reasons I don't care is that I wouldn't feel safer around de-horned goats........Maybe my goats are strange, I don't know.  But when they butt, they drop their head and butt with the top of their head.  There is very little horn involved at all, AND they are all hard headed enough that they could knock me silly even without horns.  So, I've taught my goats a VERY valuable life lesson.........it's really really not cool to head butt mom.
> 
> All the horns here point backward, making it near impossible to "gore" anyone.  Cattle horns are different, they point forward and the bull will actually "take aim" to gore.  There is a big difference between head butting and goring and each needs to be handled differently.


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## PendergrassRanch (Feb 22, 2013)

I prefer horns and I will not be removing my kids horns.  I think they are beautiful and I find the disbudding practice to be really cruel.  I understand the reason behind it, its just not something I want to participate in.


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## lovinglife (Feb 22, 2013)

I am battling this question myself.   My goats had horns in the past and I never had any problem with them, sometimes they came in handy, but I see the reasoning to them NOT having horns, but I don't have a problem with horns, so why should I disbud them....  I am on the fence here...  I don't want to do it and I will not do it at first, I may change my mind in the future if I get more into it...  I hope that sounded as mixed up as I feel about this issue...


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## PendergrassRanch (Feb 22, 2013)

Horns also make excellent handles to steer them with.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 22, 2013)

It's personal preference, really. Sort of like the "should I declaw my cat?" debate with pet owners.

I have had Boers (all horned) and now we have disbudded dairy goats. We do have one that is horned. It is possible to get punctured or scratched badly by horns, so it is not entirely impossible. I have had a doe in the past that would turn her head and hook you with a horn. Not pleasant! 

Are horns a natural defense? Not that much. If they up against a predator such as a coyote, cougar, or bear, what are horns really going to do? They are just there for pecking order control in the herd from what I have observed.  On that note, our horned Nubian doe is actually the least submissive. However, I do not feel confortable with her being around small kids because her horns are right at eye level. 

We made the decision to disbud our goats from now on for safety and in the event we decide to show some of our Nubians. Some people just like the look.


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## Mamaboid (Feb 22, 2013)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> .  So, I've taught my goats a VERY valuable life lesson.........it's really really not cool to head butt mom.


Yup!!  Same rule applies here.  Reinforced by Mom WILL use your horns to throw your butt on the ground and put her foot on you til you behave.  Our Dandy boy is about one more arrogant head toss away from learning this lesson.  Seems every buck has to have the lesson at about 8 months.  Only ever have to do it once per goat. LOL


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 22, 2013)

I find it amusing that people consider disbudding cruel, but not banding wethers.

Castrating, even without anesthesia is less cruel than putting a rubber band around the top of an animals scrotum which will cause them discomfort/pain for weeks.

And that horns are standard equipment, but testicles aren't.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 22, 2013)

You actually ave a real good point. I don't think that disbudding is cruel but I do not like it for me. Other want to do it, that's fine. 

Now banding I am in favor of and I will band my kids but yes, it is basically making them rot away. Some could say it is cruel, yes.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 22, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> You actually ave a real good point. I don't think that disbudding is cruel but I do not like it for me. Other want to do it, that's fine.
> 
> Now banding I am in favor of and I will band my kids but yes, it is basically making them rot away. Some could say it is cruel, yes.


My basic point is that we often do things to livestock or all animals for that point to suit our needs, not theirs

So, why don't you just castrate them?  My wife will show you how to do it


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## Bedste (Feb 22, 2013)

NO horns.....  I like them without horns.  With horns they can get stuck in the fence and they can hurt the children or each other.  I have never had a horned goat to compare but have heard from others and I am convinced... Making weathers is the only way to keep a buckling unless the buckling is awesome because I hear that they are nasty and stinky


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 22, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

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Your first statement is so true.

My neighbor can and may teach me and my other vet could too. Think is it costs me $0 for me to band but $25+ to castrate. I'd rather band.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 22, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

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Why does it cost you $25 to castrate if you do it yourself?  Look up castrating a goat on you tube.  There's a video on there of a vet doing it and a farmer doing it.  They do it the same.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Feb 22, 2013)

hah I meant for the vet to do it. I would have to put them under to do it myself. That too cost money. Do you do it without putting them under?


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 22, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> hah I meant for the vet to do it. I would have to put them under to do it myself. That too cost money. Do you do it without putting them under?


No we don't put them under.

My original statement was that banding was worse than castrating even without anesthesia.

Look at the you tube video.

It's no worse than disbudding.


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## littlegoat (Mar 9, 2013)

I have 4 goats 2 have horns 2 dont. I would let mine kkep there horns if I ever get some more babys!


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## PotterWatch (Mar 9, 2013)

We don't disbud our kids. We used to have it done but I just don't like the process and I rather like them with horns, so last year's kids and this year's kids all have horns. 

We are turning to a burdizzo for castrating as well as we feel it is less risky in the long run.


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## Roll farms (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm a goat snob.  I admit it.  (Some may dislike my next comment, but I truly mean no offense...)

When I see dairy goats with horns, I think the same thing as I do when I see human children w/ dirty clothes and snotty noses--  Just a general feeling of distaste.  
It's not the goat's fault any more than it is the kids, but I just think they look....trashy.

I like to see Boers with horns, but I don't like what Boers with horns do to my fencing, barns, stalls, etc.

To each their own.  We choose to disbud every 'keeper' meat kid we have, and we disbud all dairy kids.

For those that think horns make convenient 'handles'....lemme grab you by your ears and lead you around.....see how you like it.


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## Catahoula (Mar 9, 2013)

No horns.... Goats already have snake like eyes, goats with horns reminds me of the devil.... Horns make them look evil to me.  I love the look of no horns on all goats...especially on Boers. They just look so sweet and innocent...like goat kids.
There would also have some serious injuries to my smallest goat, definitely to my dog and possible one of the biggest goat...not to mention myself if my goats had horns too.


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## kstaven (Mar 16, 2013)

Personal preference coupled with your experience handling goats comes into play here. We are odd in that we dairy fully horned goats. Seen way to many botched jobs and scur issues along the way. One thing I learned from experience is that horn scurs will cut like a knife, so disbudding has its own drawbacks.


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## treeclimber233 (Mar 16, 2013)

The other day when feeding,  one of my wethers stuck his head between my legs to eat some hay that fell off the block I had just picked up.  One of my other goats came to investigate what he was eating.  He threw his head up and tried to back out between my legs.  Ahhhh.....his horns are about 6 inches long. No horns in the future for my goats. And lucky for me he was not trying to hurt me.  Accidents happen.


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## alsea1 (Mar 17, 2013)

I have one goat with horns and one goat with one horn and a goat with one deformed horn.
So I'm just gonna leave their horns alone.
As for banding the boys. I'm thinking about just leaving them alone. The boys are freezer bound before they mature too much anyway. 
We will see if it ruins the meat or not.
I reason out it should be like eating a young spike buck deer. No one bands those deer and they sure taste good.


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## Squirrelgirl88 (Mar 17, 2013)

Our Nigerian Dwarf herd gets to keep their horns. Sure, you have to be a bit more careful with them, but we have not had anyone get their heads stuck anywhere yet. We have 4x4 goat fence and they cannot get their head through it. One did get her leg caught once - go figure.

We make every attempt to never grab our goats by the horns - it seems cruel. 

Our girls have not been destructive with their horns. They simply use them to scratch with 

Now, I have had a black eye from horns - my fault. You should never try and kiss a goat on the head. :/


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## marlowmanor (Mar 17, 2013)

Our goats have their horns. Yes, I have young children out there with the goats too, but I do watch them and I have total trust in the goats when the kids are playing with them. My 2 year old is my most friendly with the goats and will walk right up to the wethers and start petting them. He's been right by their side near their head with no issues. He can't mess with the does because they aren't as human friendly but he can walk right up to the weathers and pet and play with them. Yes, I keep an eye on him so I can intervene if an issue arises but no problems have come up yet.


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## michickenwrangler (Mar 17, 2013)

alsea1 said:
			
		

> I have one goat with horns and one goat with one horn and a goat with one deformed horn.
> So I'm just gonna leave their horns alone.
> As for banding the boys. I'm thinking about just leaving them alone. The boys are freezer bound before they mature too much anyway.
> We will see if it ruins the meat or not.
> I reason out it should be like eating a young spike buck deer. No one bands those deer and they sure taste good.


My main meat customers are from India and they LOVE the taste of my young intact bucks. When I first mentioned about them being bucks, needed to get them wethered because I didn't want the taste affected, they curtly told me, "That doesn't affect taste." OK, you're the customer. They were right. Another goat acquaintance of mine told me that she had eaten intact breeding bucks that had been slaughtered in the spring or summer without a musky taste to the meat. We banded our buckling this year because stepdaughter wants to show him at the fair and bucks aren't allowed.

Horns: Depends. Personally, I think LaManchas look weird WITH horns without the ears the balance out the look. 

As I mentioned before, I like meat and fiber goats with horns, dairy without, since dairy horns tend to grow UP before they grow back. Meat and dairy goat horns tend to have lower elevation and grow along the skull. My horned goats are quite adept with them and the only goat I've known to get his head stuck, got his HEAD stuck. It was his jaw that prevented him from withdrawing between two boards, not his horns. We do, however, keep saws and bolt cutters handy by all pens just in case.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 17, 2013)

Funny, yesterday I was just talking to the person we got DinDin from.  She is spitting mad.  She was giving her doe a CDT shot while her daughter helped hold her, and just as she got it in, the doe pulled her head around and slammed her in the eyebrow with her horns.  Her orbit is cracked and she looks a wreck I guess.  She feels really bad for her husband though because boy are people giving him looks (NO really it was my GOAT).  Anyway, she let me know that she has decided to now disbud all of her goats, dairy and meat since we are talking about getting one of her babies soon.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Mar 17, 2013)

I trust certain goats too. My one I can do anything with. I give her kisses on the head or hug her etc. I have my face over her head and horns pretty much everyday.

I love horns. I wouldn't much like to have a goat without them. Goats should have horns and if they are born with them then they absolutely should have them. That's just me.

I've never been really hit or hurt by them before and hopefully I never will but even if I am it will end up being my fault. Goats don't just go after or try to hurt you with their horns. The once in a blue moon there is a goat that does then that goat was made for the freezer.

I do get why people can be scared of them though. I know of a person that had a horn go thru his eye. But as long as you know the goat and with the ones you need to be, be careful you'll be alright.


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## Canadiannee (Mar 18, 2013)

lol, I have to put my two cents in, because for all it's worth... I like horns! 

I understand that there's a possibility that horns can cause injuries, not only to humans but to other animals and herdmates... I've heard plenty of stories of mishaps and the fire in the debate on whether to disbud or not, and I've experienced a "doughhead" moment of my own when I wasn't thinking, picked up a 6 month old doeling who tossed her head back and thumped me a good one in the mouth breaking one of my teeth... but it wasn't her fault, it was mine.

I know this is an extreme exaggeration and lol, I intend it to be... but I've been kicked, bitten, run over and struck by a few horses in my lifetime and I haven't yet de-hoofed one, or pulled it's teeth out  Instead, I walk into a stall, arena, or paddock with my "game" on... I know what one of these animals is capable of doing if I'm not paying attention and taking precautions, and I'm pretty much the same way with my goats... I know which ones in my herd can be trouble, and I know which ones aren't, but all and all, they're still animals, and they have their own behaviours and I respect that. 

To the OP... to disbud or not to disbud is totally up to your personal perferences, unless as others have said, your intention is to show your animals. Only you can decide what works for you according to the type of operation you've set up and what your purpose is... I personally have no issues with horns, I like them, and I'm willing to "butt proof" my pens and enclosures to keep my goats intact...  Call me crazy that way!


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## upsidedown (Jul 12, 2013)

I am very new to goats.  I have 2 does, 1 with horns and 1 without, 1 buck with horns, 1 buckling with horns and 2 bucklings that were dehorned by the previous owners (they were 2 weeks old when I got them along with one of my does)  the 2 bucklings that were "dehorned" have scurs.  When were were looking for goats and other people herds, we saw a lot of scurs on supposedly dehorned goats.  

We made that decision then that most people in my area do not do a good job of dehorning and we preferred not to on a single buckling.

I personally have no problems with them getting caught in the fence, using them against me.  My goats are all dairy, sometimes it makes it easier to get them off the milk stand


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## KWAK (Jul 14, 2013)

I'm going to be leaving horns on any kids I plan on keeping for breeding stock, if I plan on selling them I'll probably have them de-horned.


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## cknipp (Mar 3, 2015)

very interesting thread... We bought 2 pregnant Alpines with horns. They both have since kidded and I was debating disbudding the kids. I have decided against it. Glad to read about others who keep horns. They do help keep them on the milking stand! We have an electric strand that keeps them off the fence and from getting tangled in the fence. The only downside so far has been the possibility of hurting the new kids or my Pyrenese puppy. Everyone will hopefully learn quickly though.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 3, 2015)

cknipp said:


> very interesting thread... We bought 2 pregnant Alpines with horns. They both have since kidded and I was debating disbudding the kids. I have decided against it. Glad to read about others who keep horns. They do help keep them on the milking stand! We have an electric strand that keeps them off the fence and from getting tangled in the fence. The only downside so far has been the possibility of hurting the new kids or my Pyrenese puppy. Everyone will hopefully learn quickly though.


I did an article on this very subject however I edited the article adding another important factor. There is an additional thread telling Millie's story. You may want to take a look at it.
Although I like horns, dairy goats... nope... never again and you will see why. Also many that are getting our dwarfs and mini's especially, have small children and unfortunately accidents happen... those horns are right at face level with young children.
Since writing these our goats are growing older. The dairy goats seem to grow more ornery with their horns as they age and can get quite nasty.
Our Kiko's are still all horned, but their horns are different and we never have issues except for them getting stuck in trees which happens often.
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 3, 2015)

with my kids planning to show our goats for 4-H(no horns allowed in dairy goats) and for safety we plan to de- horn.  One of our new does has a scur so she wont be shown.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 3, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> with my kids planning to show our goats for 4-H(no horns allowed in dairy goats) and for safety we plan to de- horn.  One of our new does has a scur so she wont be shown.


How bad is the scur? Most scurs can be clipped. I think you still can show does with small scurs, but I'm not sure


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 3, 2015)

not to big- kind of like a bump- I have to check and see what is allowed maybe she would be showable


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## Fullhousefarm (Mar 3, 2015)

You can show with a scur as long as it isn't a "horn." I think the rule is less than 1" off head, but I've seen some longer do well in the ring.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 3, 2015)

Small scur isn't a problem.  Honestly, didn't know there was a rule but I remember one show where one doe had a bad one and the judge commented if she planned to continue showing her she needed to have it removed.


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## Goat Whisperer (Mar 3, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> not to big- kind of like a bump- I have to check and see what is allowed maybe she would be showable


Maybe you could post a pic? I bet the others can tell you if it would be ok


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## GLENMAR (Mar 17, 2015)

No horns here. In fact I have been doing a lot of disbudding for local breeders around here too.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 17, 2015)

GLENMAR said:


> No horns here. In fact I have been doing a lot of disbudding for local breeders around here too.


Me too
I still hate doing it but the "dread" has eased up some
We've gotten much better at it
Disbudded some for someone else last year
Not going to get into the details but swore we would never do that again
Didn't want to do it then kind of feared how how it would turn out and it exceeded my expectations
But we ended up "helping" someone this year
They go their  own iron and we coached them


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## babsbag (Mar 17, 2015)

No horns here either. I did leave them on my boers but they have to have them to show and I was planning on them going to show homes. No more boers so no more horns. Horns get stuck in feeders and stock panels. Seen some dead goats because of that. They also use them as deadly weapons on each other and what is simply a hard butt with a hard head can be oh so much more when horns are involved. They can rip open udders and stomachs with even trying; simply toss their head to scratch their own back and they can injure anything in their path.

I have done the disbudding, I stink at it. I have friends that do a for me and a vet when I forget. Even the best people doing the disbudding  will get scurs now and then, be diligent and have them reburned when small. Bucks almost always have scurs; my alpine buck was done 3x to get them all.


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## Sweetened (Mar 17, 2015)

I have goats with and without. I hate them both for different reasons. I WILL NOT dehorn. I will own ir breed polled, horned or dehorned goats, but i will not do it to my stock. My buck has scurrs and they are awful, dreadful things. Next year when we take him in to be castrated, we will consider having the scurrs removed as they grow over his eyes.

My girls with horns get stuck on a semi regular basis -- the polled ones dont. BUT my polled ones get inti EVERYTHING. They have no horns to restrict movement and wriggling through things and they do at every opportunity.

Catching horned goats is easier.

My horned goats do better with the extreme hot and cold weather we have where as the polled and dehorned do better in mild weather. I believe this relates back to horns being a heat regulating.

I understand why people do and dont. You MUST do what is right for you and your family, everyone else be damned.


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## Fullhousefarm (Mar 18, 2015)

No horns for us. 

We show dairy animals so they can't have horns. With little kids and such I think it's wise. 

We do have one horned ND that was given to us. No problems so far. I'd re home before I'd dehorn her. 

I have a disbudded Lamancha that would be horrible with horns. She's too smart for her own good, big, and quite the diva. She opens doors, latches, and jumps.


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## annabelle333 (May 9, 2015)

Straw Hat Kikos said:


> I will always leave my goats with horns on. I have Kiko meat goats. They're known for those horns!! I feel that if a goat is born with horns then leave them on. Goats are just as easily handled with horns as without and goats don't just go around hitting you or people or each other as people make them out to do. All my goats are very aware of their horns are are just fine with them. They don't hurt me or each other.
> 
> Also, please do not ever disbud meat goats. It's like a sin. Diary goats, ok sure you do that. Your choice. But please not meat goats. Meat goats SHOULD have horns.



I am new to all this...why should meat goat have horns?  For predators?  That makes sense to me but then shouldn't all goats?  Like I said- a newbie so sorry for the obvious questions!


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## Ridgetop (May 10, 2015)

I disbud dairy animals and any Boers that are for breeding and not show.  Dairy animals must be disbudded for show.  Scurs are acceptable.  if you have a largish scur that is pliable you can cut it of with a set of wire cutters or a scur nipper.  Oncr you have done a lot of disbudding you learn not to leave scurs.  We never had a scur and must have disbudded 500 kids or more.
We used to show disbudded Boer doe kids when they first started showing Boers and it was ok.  The rules must have changed.  I don;tdisbud or castrate bucklings I send to auctionbecause ethnic buyers want their bucklings entire and with horns.  Some sort of macho thing.

Horns are dangerous not because the goats use them to injure you, but just tossing their heads can catch a small child in the eye and blind them accidently.  I got a 4" gash in my leg feeding Pygmies for a friend.  Her goat wanted some attention and tossed his head at me.  The horn caught me in the thigh.  He didn't mean to hurt me, but if he could do that accidentally, think about the danger to your children.  I wouldn't let my samall kids play in the street or near a pool unattended so why take a chance with a goat's horns.  It only takes one time and there is no going back.

Everyone has to make up their own minds as to what they are comfortable with.


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## annabelle333 (May 10, 2015)

Thanks Ridgetop!  Important point...one time and there is no going back...


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## Amina (Sep 16, 2015)

What do you guys think about putting tennis balls on the goats' horns? Are there downsides to that approach besides looking silly?

If I got 2x4" no climb fencing, then it seems like goat heads couldn't get through and get stuck. And it seems like with the tennis balls, nobody could get gouged. Is there anything I'm overlooking?

I don't have goats yet but would like to have dairy goats in the future, and am trying to figure out what I will do when the time comes. I have no interest in showing my goats or any other livestock for that matter, so that would not be an issue for me.


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## SkyWarrior (Sep 16, 2015)

Amina said:


> What do you guys think about putting tennis balls on the goats' horns? Are there downsides to that approach besides looking silly?
> 
> If I got 2x4" no climb fencing, then it seems like goat heads couldn't get through and get stuck. And it seems like with the tennis balls, nobody could get gouged. Is there anything I'm overlooking?
> 
> I don't have goats yet but would like to have dairy goats in the future, and am trying to figure out what I will do when the time comes. I have no interest in showing my goats or any other livestock for that matter, so that would not be an issue for me.



I don't know how effective that would be, mainly because the other goats might take them off.

I do have goats with horns. After one round of disbudding (that didn't take anyway), I decided it was too nasty to do.  My opinion.


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## Amina (Sep 16, 2015)

That's exactly my feeling, SkyWarrior. So either I will be having goats with horns, or getting them sedated for the disbudding procedure. I'm just trying to figure out if there are ways to mitigate the risks of having horns... if changes in management style can mitigate the risks, then I'll just have horns on my goats.

I've heard of folks using duct tape to make sure the tennis balls stay on. I like the idea, but wondered if others have tried this.


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 16, 2015)

Amina said:


> That's exactly my feeling, SkyWarrior. So either I will be having goats with horns, or getting them sedated for the disbudding procedure. I'm just trying to figure out if there are ways to mitigate the risks of having horns... if changes in management style can mitigate the risks, then I'll just have horns on my goats.
> 
> I've heard of folks using duct tape to make sure the tennis balls stay on. I like the idea, but wondered if others have tried this.


Hate to throw you a curve here but there are risks associated with sedating young animals
It's the thing about owning goats I hate doing the most but we do ours ourselves without sedation
We had 19 kids this year so no way to get a vet out when they are born over 2 months
And out of those only one bad job because we waited too long to do it
@Southern by choice could probably give some insight
She didn't disbud at all at first, then would only do it with. Vet sedating, but I believe now does it herself so with her experience with goats her thoughts evolved on the issue


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## Amina (Sep 16, 2015)

Yep, I know there are risks to sedation, so I am really hoping to mitigate risks to having horns, instead.


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 16, 2015)

Amina said:


> Yep, I know there are risks to sedation, so I am really hoping to mitigate risks to having horns, instead.


There is no right or wrong
You have to do what you feel is best for your situation


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## SkyWarrior (Sep 16, 2015)

Some considerations:

Scurs can be nasty.  I took a doe who had to be put down because the former owner's veterinarian said there was no way to remove the scur without her bleeding out.  The scur was growing into her skull.  We had many good meals from that doe, but I'm sure the owner would have preferred a live doe.

My own buck, Oreo, has had scurs that grow wildly and curl around his head.  Occasionally, they break and bleed for hours.  Nasty stuff.

I understand that people who disbud correctly don't have problems with scurs. But I feel that enough people who don't do it right are disbudding.  Yeah, maybe someday they will do it right on their kids, but how many have to have problems?  I've had a few does that have had no or minimal scurs. And I've had goats with horrible scurs.  I personally just don't feel competent enough to disbud even with the right equipment. 

I've only done disbudding once and the disbudding didn't take.  All the disbudded goats had their horns without issues (no scurs -- just horns).  I did everything right, it stunk to high heaven, and it caused a lot of discomfort for the kids.  I was pro disbudding before that.


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## Amina (Sep 17, 2015)

Thanks, SkyWarrior. That's definitely something to think about. Scurs sound pretty awful. I would definitely hate to put a goat the disbudding process and not have it done right...

I'm also wondering if a lot of the risks from horns could be mitigated by good breeding. For example, I'm used to chickens, and I would never breed from a rooster that was aggressive toward me or the hens. I wonder if you could mitigate a lot of the problem with goats by breeding from goats that don't try to use their horns aggressively to humans or other goats.

Maybe I should make a point of buying goats from people who successfully manage theirs with horns. The genetics might favor a gentler goat.


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## norseofcourse (Sep 17, 2015)

Hope y'all don't mind a sheep person weighing in  

My breed (Icelandic) comes both horned and polled.  I definitely prefer polled.  I have one ewe that is horned, and that's mainly because she was over a week old before her horns became obvious, and by then I was attached   

Disbudding, if done correctly, lasts a couple of minutes for the worst part, and a couple weeks of healing.  An animal with horns will have them its whole life.  So you always have to consider fencing, handling and any other issues with horns for their entire life.  And if you can't keep that animal its whole life, will it be harder to sell with horns?

I admit, some horns look really impressive.  And some people say they make a nice handle to hold an animal by.  My horned ewe, Brosa, doesn't get aggressive with her horns, but I can't use certain kinds of fencing, and I know there's always a chance she might get caught somewhere when I'm not around.

If I ever got goats, would I have them disbudded?  Yes, if I could find someone experienced and very good, or if by then, there are other disbudding methods that work well.  Doubt I could do it myself, tho.


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 18, 2015)

Amina said:


> Thanks, SkyWarrior. That's definitely something to think about. Scurs sound pretty awful. I would definitely hate to put a goat the disbudding process and not have it done right...
> 
> I'm also wondering if a lot of the risks from horns could be mitigated by good breeding. For example, I'm used to chickens, and I would never breed from a rooster that was aggressive toward me or the hens. I wonder if you could mitigate a lot of the problem with goats by breeding from goats that don't try to use their horns aggressively to humans or other goats.
> 
> Maybe I should make a point of buying goats from people who successfully manage theirs with horns. The genetics might favor a gentler goat.



Most goats don't try to hurt people with their horns. I can't tell you how many times I have ended up with nasty bruises because something startled a goat. Whenever you bend over on kneel down to pet your goats you are risking an eye, again the goat isn't trying to be mean but all it take is one flinch and you could loose an eye. If you are bringing a bale of hay of a bucket of feed the goats WILL run over to you and swarm around your legs......a goat moves its head and that horn goes into your leg.

My neighbor was given a goat, very sweet and gentle, because he got spooked by something and ended up taking a boys eye.


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## Ridgetop (Sep 19, 2015)

My personal (stress here in PERSONAL) experience is that horned goats are dangerous to young children and other animals.  I was taking care of some pygmy goats for a friend and one of the goats tossed its head and hooked by in the leg.  I have had horned goats (Boers) get hung up in feeders and fences.  One pulled a large 8' 2 sided metal pasture feeder over onto herself, getting trapped with another goat underneath it.  It took two of us to get it up with her thrashing in it so we could get her out of it.  Horned goats do not butt each other like disbudded goats do, they try to hook each other with a sidewise motion of their heads.  There are enough stories out there about horses and ponies with bellies ripped open, udders torn open, animals caught in fencing and hanging until they died, etc.  That does not even address the fact that horns are at eye height for young children. 
My children had horses that were lovable, gentle animals - they fell off sometimes.  Our goats were adorable and loving, they could knock small children down and twist around till your fingers were bruised just holding into their collars. 
We had dairy goats first.  We learned to disbud properly from an older man who had bred dairy goats for show for many years.  We never had scurs.  When he stopped doing it for us after a couple of years we bought his old disbudding iron.  It burns hotter than the modern ones so you don't have to leave it on the kid as long.  The trick is to burn out the root, and I think that most people are squeamish about doing it.  They snatch the iron off as soon as the kid starts screaming.  The kid will scream in the disbudding box anyway, so you have to steel yourself to just do the job.  Not burning long enough or doing it right will definitely allow scurs to grow.  The smell of burning hair is worse so we used to shave off the area around the horn buds first.  My son took over the disbudding when he was 14 and he never had a scur either.  We did all the kids for our 4-H project kids for 15 years and never had one get sick, die or suffer any ill effects at all.  If you are afraid of infection, give a tetanus shot first.  We sprayed disinfectant on the bud scars afterwards too.  The goat kid feels nothing after the first minute but screams because it is confined.  As soon as it is out of the box, cuddled a minute and given a bottle, it is wagging its tail and jumping around.  We disbudded the buck kids first, to practice each season, before doing the girls who were the keepers. 
We also had Boers.  We disbudded our meat kids and stopped showing when they were required to have horns.  Our sheep are polled.  The skull is designed to be able to butt without injury to the animal.  A disbudded or polled animal can knock a large dog head over heels.  They do not need horns for protection.
When we castrate, we band.  Again we give a tetanus shot first.  We only band the meat kids and wethers that we are raising to sell at 6-8 months for meat.  We have eaten uncastrated yearlings and the meat if fine.  The idea behind castrating is that I don't want a lot of horny young 6 months old bucks and rams running around my place.  Also, while entires will grow faster - they are putting the growth into framework, not meat.  Wethers put the growth into a meatier carcass so I would rather eat a shorter meatier animal that was castrated than a tall leaner animal.  The eception is when we send our young buck kids to the auction at 2 months old.  We get rid of them early to avoid having to waste milk on them (buck kids in a dairy operation are a by-product) and ethnic buyers want them uncastrated for ethnic reasons,  They are also buying them as BBQ goats too.
Whether you disbud, castrate, or follow any other animal husbandry procedure is your own decision.  Tennis balls will not solve the problem of horns on goats.  They will come off, or be chewed off by herdmates, which can cause other vet problems for you.  If you want to keep goats with horns bite the bullet, live with the problems and deal with them.  If you don't want horns, learn how to properly disbud.  It makes life a lot easier and safer in my opinion but you have to suit yourself.  What are you willing to put up with?


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## Amina (Sep 19, 2015)

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone.

Personally, I am just not comfortable causing any animal a third degree burn without any kind of anesthetic or pain reliever. I know everyone says they act fine not long afterwards, but I have read enough about prey animals being able to hide awful pain that I am just not comfortable with it. That's me personally. So the remaining choices are to anesthetize and disbud, or just have horns. Of course I could go with polled genetics as much as possible, too. I don't have children, so that won't be a factor in the decision.


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## Amina (Sep 19, 2015)

I have been looking at research articles on cortisol (stress hormone) levels after disbudding and castration with local anesthetic. Apparently local anesthetic works great for castration if you're going to band them, because the band keeps the lidocaine there in the testicles so you don't need much lidocaine for good pain control. So that's great to know.

It doesn't work as well for disbudding though, because it dissipates quickly from the area, so to get the area good and numb, you'd be using a toxic amount.


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## EmilyVioletElithabeth (Sep 20, 2015)

some of my goats never grow horns. I don't know why but it's grate!  the goats that do grow horns are sometimes more pushy with each other and when I have new goat kids they will butt them and I hardly ever see the one with no horns ramming the baby kids. Sometimes one of the horns get under the baby's bell and the goat fling the baby into the air.  It's really scary. 
I usually sell the ones that are to aggressive with the baby's but. if they are born with horns I keep them  and see how they behave when there older. 
sometimes there very nice even with horns but sometimes there not


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## Moody (Sep 23, 2015)

I have 6 goats. One milker who was de horned perfectly. Gentle as can be. One milker who has scurs that are very horn like. I need to saw some on the one she didn't knock off last year to keep it from entering her head. My buck has nasty scurs but he broke both off. They are not as thick and don't bleed as badly when he knocks them off or they break off when I saw on them. One buckling I got a few months ago who is getting  scurs but they don't seem to be growing fast. One doeling born here and I didn't have the right size tip for my iron so she skated by without burning. She is a real butt head. Has been friendly but does try to use those horns. And the second doeling born here I had the right tip so she was the fist one I tried. She has small scurs that seem wobbly like they will fall off fairly easily. She has been harder to pet, not as friendly, maybe because I caught her and burned her head. Now she has finally forgiven me. She is a little over 4 months old now. 

I don't trust animals ever. They get frightened and can easily hurt a person even if they are normally sweet. I have a 4 year old son and a 1 year old here daily. My dogs aren't fully trusted either. 

My neighbor had horned goats and their heads were frequently stuck in the woven field fencing. I would find my dogs over there nipping at their heads. 

I think it would be easier for me to leave the horns. No burning, no possible scurs until I perfect the amount of time to burn their little heads. But for me, I will torture both myself and a baby goat to get rid of those horns. I like a hornless look better anyway.


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## SheepGirl (Sep 23, 2015)

In addition--horned AND polled animals will get stuck in fencing. It's just easier to remove a polled animal's head without too much fuss in comparison to removing a horned head.


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## 1crazybird (Mar 29, 2016)

All my goats have horns. None are aggressive. They all grow nice on their heads and none have gotten hooked on fences. 
I agree it is up to the owner. I would debud any kid that I would not keep unless asked not too. 
My girls slam heads at times but nothing more then playing. They always seem to stop before they hit. Even my buck seems to know he has them and to be gentile. 
At times with my pygmy I think if she jumps up at the wrong time I may lose an eye but I know to watch myself and the children understand to as well. 
As for my chickens clover the pygmy tells them to beet it. Lol picture to follow. Lol 
I have been around poled goats and think that is as if something is missing.  
I would learn to do it myself just so i can have the ability to do so but i think I will leave it up to my friend for now. Same with castration. I will pay and watch. Lol


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