# Frenches that will not breed



## rockdoveranch (Jan 2, 2011)

I had uppity eared rabbits as a kid, and Frenches when my kids were little, and recently bought 3 Frenches.

My male was born March 3, 2010, and the does were born January 7, 2009 and January 8, 2009.

I tried breeding October and then again in November.  

I tried to breed each doe a week apart.

I put one doe at a time in with the buck in the am, removed her, and put her back in with the buck in the evening.  Each time the larger doe tried to kill the buck and I have to take her out of his cage. 

The other doe likes the buck, but they have never been successfully bred.   He tries, but she does not flag him.   

I have read that if they do not have babies by the time they are a year old, they should not be breed because the pelvic may have fused together.  

I have tried to reach the breeder of the does, but she does not return my emails.  

Did I make a major mistake buying a buck that is younger than the does?  We have had a few cold snaps that did not last very long.  Is the temperature a problem?  It never was before when I had my French.

Any suggestions as to why these Frenches will not breed.  

Thanks.


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## Bunnylady (Jan 2, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> I have read that if they do not have babies by the time they are a year old, they should not be breed because the pelvic may have fused together.


This is the second time I have seen this statement in the last couple of days. The pelvic bones fusing is a problem in Guinea Pigs, I don't know why it is suddenly being attributed to rabbits. Guinea Pig babies are very well developed and surprisingly large compared to the size of the adults, rabbits not nearly so much.

I assume by "Frenches" you mean French Lops (as opposed to, say, French Angoras)? Those are big rabbits, which do mature a bit slower, but your boy should have been old enough in October to get the job done. If the does were born in January of '09, they'd have been - what - 20 months old in October? Do I understand they hadn't been bred at all before you got them? 

If a doe has been out of production for a while, it is often difficult to get her bred. Small breed does are notorious for not breeding after a layoff, and the usual reason is that they get too fat. Fat produces hormones that interfere with the normal fluctuations that trigger egg ripening and breeding behavior. I would suspect that this may be what is going on with your girls, too. This is a tough time of year to get rabbits to breed, anyway, but if these does are a bit heavier than they should be, it may be enough to keep them from cycling (rabbits do have hormonal cycles, they just aren't as obvious as in some other animals. Extending their day length  with artificial lighting may help, too.


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## rockdoveranch (Jan 2, 2011)

Thank you for your response BunnyLady.

Yep, they are French Lops.   Sorry, I thought I had mentioned that in my PO.   I bought them May 1, 2010 and none had been bred.  

My large doe is about 14 pounds and the other two rabbits are about 12 pounds.  

The two rabbit books I have are the ARBA guide, and Storey's guide.  Not sure where, but I am thinking it was the books that talked about the pelvic bones fusing.

I live about 50 miles from the Texas Gulf Coast were our weather is more on the hot, humid side most the time with the exception of cold fronts in the winter.  I had read that the male needs a month or so of cold weather to be fertile, but  . . . the problem is that he is not making a connection.  I have also read it is best to breed down here in cold weather.

The smaller doe likes the buck and they will cuddle with each other, but she has never flagged him.  She is always sitting low when he tries.

I have tried holding her with her tail end high up facing him.  He tries, but still no connection.  

I refer to them as the only rabbits in the world that will not breed.

There is a rabbit club in my county, but the person who was supposed to let me know about meetings never contacts me to let me known where and when.  I have tried another person in my county but that person did not return my calls.

Do you think I should just keep trying>


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## Bunnylady (Jan 2, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> I refer to them as the only rabbits in the world that will not breed.


LOL! I say, the only people that believe that rabbit breeding is easy are those that haven't done it! (I also say that my rabbits put their heads together at night and ask each other, "how can we drive her crazy today?" Refusing to breed is one of their favorites!)

I don't think the problem is your buck. How can I say this on a family-friendly forum? A young buck like that shouldn't be having, um, equipment malfunctions, unless he has a split (I don't know if this is a problem in French Lops; it is a common problem is some of the smaller breeds that I work with). I have had an occasional older buck that I had to retire, or maybe he should have gotten a script for Viagra (could you imagine asking for that for a _rabbit!?!_) 

The problem with breeding at this time of year isn't temperature, it's day length. Some animals are more sensitive to it than others, but the thought is that they wouldn't normally be breeding during the colder months, so their hormones are at low ebb during the shorter days of winter. That's why lights are thought to help. I've never tried it with my rabbits, but I do know they can bring my seasonal laying chickens back into production.  

Before you put a doe in with the buck, it is a good idea to check to see if she is ready to breed. Flip the doe over, and check the color of her vulva (follow the procedure you would use to see whether an animal were male or female, this exposes a little of the lining so you can see the color). If the doe's vulva is light pink, she's not ready. What you are looking for is bright, cherry red, and a little bit swollen. If the color is purplish, she has actually gone past the peak, and may or may not breed. Some of my does never get any darker than a deep rose color, so you kind of need to know the doe. I have yet to have a doe refuse if her color says she's "red hot, ready to go," and they almost always deliver a nice litter, too. 

As an absolute last resort, I have put a buck in with a couple of older does in a colony-type arrangement. They have to be rabbits that get along well enough, no really combative types, as I don't want anyone getting torn up. I prefer more than one doe, so the buck's attention gets spread out, as it seems less likely that a doe will get so fed up she'll savage him that way. I have had bucks "catch" does that I couldn't get bred any other way, but then the burden is on me to "catch" signs that they are about to kindle, since I can't be sure about due dates. Not guaranteed to work, but I have gotten litters that I wouldn't have had, that way.


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## rockdoveranch (Jan 2, 2011)

Interesting in that nothing I have read talked about checking the vulva for color.  But somewhere in the back of my 60 year old brain what you said sounds VERY familiar.

What I have read since getting my rabbits says that the buck brings the doe into heat during mating and that is why it is suggested the doe be put in with the buck once in the morning at once in the evening.  

It's like . . . I need to go back to the old fangled way of doing things rather than what the modern books say.

Thanks for you input.  I will keep you updated as to my progress as a rabbit breeder.


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## rockdoveranch (Jan 2, 2011)

I meant to add that the girls do not get along together, so the colony suggestion will not work.  They fight.

My larger doe had been beaten up pretty badly by a litter mate and had scabs and areas of missing hair in several places when I bought her.  The breeder told me the hair would grow back.  She is the same doe that fights with the buck the second I put her in his cage.  Perhaps she is the one who started the fight the two times I tried putting the does together.  Maybe she has "issues" from her early experience.   

Her hair did grow back in all the places hair was missing, but it is on a different shedding cycle than the rest of her body.


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## DianeS (Jan 2, 2011)

How near to each other are they when they're in their hutches? I have heard (but have no first hand knowledge) that some recalictrant does do better if they are more accustomed to being near the buck in a non-breeding situation. 

If it were me, I'd make sure they can see each other in their hutches for several days before you intend to breed. Then I'd move the hutches closer so they can smell each other. And then close enough they could touch noses if they wanted to. And then try the breeding. 

Of course, if you're already doing that, then I have nothing new to add, but thought it was worth mentioning!


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## rockdoveranch (Jan 2, 2011)

DianeS,

The does are in the same "hutch" divided into two cages.  The buck is by himself a couple of yards away in his own cage.  They are under our back "yard" 15 foot awning so their cages are open all the way around.  The house protects them from the north wind.

I have tried switching the cages out as you suggested for 24 hours and then putting the doe in with the buck, but to no avail.  

I put the fighting doe in the bucks cage, and put him in her cage, next to the "nice" doe for a week, then put them together . . . and nothing.  I switched them around for a week . . . and nothing.

I also tried leaving the "nice" doe in with the buck in his cage and at another time in her cage for a week . . . and nothing.

At one point the "nice" doe started mounting the buck.  

This afternoon I put the "nice" doe in with the buck and he tried to go to work immediately, but she just won't flag him.  I am going to leave them together for a week again as they do like each other and groom each other.  If I did not know any better, I would think she was spayed.  They just do not want to make babies together.

I know not to leave him in with her more than a week.

The thing putting her into the bucks cage backwards with my hand under her belly, holding her hind side up, and keeping her in position with my other hand is a bit scary as the buck holds on REAL tight and is so focused he does not know my hand from her body.  I am afraid I will get hurt . . . but I have tried it several times.

If we can't make babies by April, I am going to give up.

Thanks for the post!


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## Bunnylady (Jan 2, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> What I have read since getting my rabbits says that the buck brings the doe into heat during mating


Ummmmm, not 'zactly. Rabbits, like cats, are what are called "induced ovulators." The egg has a very limited lifespan between the time it is released and the time that it must implant as an embryo or die. A lot of animals ripen eggs and release them according to a set hormonal schedule, and if they don't happen to meet up with Mr. Right at just the right time, they simply don't become pregnant on that cycle. With induced ovulation, the eggs ripen as per usual according to the female's hormonal cycle, but they are not released until another hormone that is released in response to the act of mating triggers the release of the eggs. When the eggs are being held in the ovary, they are still being nourished, so this has the effect of vastly increasing the window of opportunity for settling on any particular cycle.  

Rabbits don't show obvious "heat," but they do experience hormonal peaks and valleys. This is where the color coding comes in useful. A "pink" doe is in the period prior to her eggs being ripe. Breeding during this time (even forced breeding) is a waste of effort, because there are no eggs available to get fertilized. Red signals the hormonal peak, the time when the eggs have just ripened and are at their most viable. Purple indicates waning hormonal levels; the eggs are getting older, so viability is fading, but a doe may still get pregnant if she is bred on this color.


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## rockdoveranch (Jan 2, 2011)

Wow!  This is SO interesting.  Everything you are telling me has been stored somewhere in the back on my brain as it all sounds so familiar.  I wish I still had my rabbit books from the 80s because neither of my current books provides such a good explanation.

Do you know of any websites you can direct me to, or better books than I currently have?

Thanks much!


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