# ADGA Inbreeding what % is good?



## Goats are Great (Feb 23, 2016)

I have been raising and showing Nigerian Dwarf goats for well over 10 years. I have recently bought a buck that is almost 14% inbred on some really nice lines. This is  the first time I've really started thinking about the % of inbreeding... And I realized I have no idea what is too much or what is an okay number. What do you guys think? My buck is really awesome and gave my very consistent kids in 2015. These are his first kids and none of them have freshened, but their conformation is lovely.  I am very excited to see how they do in the show ring!

But on the flip side I also experienced my first taste ever of kids with fatal birth defects. I lost three of his kids... In over 10 years I've never lost a kid that hit the ground breathing... Until now... I've had a few that died prenatal and by a few I mean three... I raise about 10 kids a year. Is it his fault? I don't know? He's the only major factor to change in my breeding program...

Are the stunning does he gave me worth the loss? Only one death did I have confirmed by my vet as a birth defect, but I suspect the others to be as well...  

On side note he gave me 9 super healthy and happy kids! They are growing like weeds! 

Is line breeding worth it to you?
What combinations of line breeding do you like?


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## Ponker (Feb 24, 2016)

I'm starting to build my first herd of sheep (sorry wrong animal but it fits with the inbreeding topic). Some of the pedigrees I see have a COI in the teens and I too wonder if this is 'good' since the lines are exceptional or if that degree of inbreeding is borderline. Maybe its a personal judgement call - _Whatever level you personally are comfortable with depending on the strength of the pedigree_. I wish I knew more. Admittedly, I'm just a neophyte learning as much as I can along the way. With not enough knowledge on the subject, I'm tending to shy away from COI's in the teens in favor of more diversification. I know that people have line bred with outstanding results. What I look for is close breeding with siblings or father/daughter, son/mother... I haven't been able to get a warm fuzzy with those close relationships and breeding. I do know that grandfather/daughter breedings are acceptable when a knowledgeable breeder is line breeding and selecting for certain traits.


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## samssimonsays (Feb 24, 2016)

Wrong animal for the topic from me too but I raised rabbits and the rule of thumb was no brother sister, and only 2 mother/son or father/daughter pairings in 4 generations. I have been told it takes 3 to 4 generations before defects start to arise in complete inbreeding. There could be a chance the genetics just didn't mesh up properly between those does and your buck? Maybe a fluke and environmental even? I am too new to know anything specifically but those would be my best guesses. 

You have to do what you feel is best for your herd and what you are comfortable with in the end.  good luck.


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## Latestarter (Feb 24, 2016)

Goats are Great said:


> I have been raising and showing Nigerian Dwarf goats for well over 10 years. I have recently bought a buck that is almost 14% inbred on some really nice lines... My buck is really awesome and gave my very consistent kids in 2015. These are his first kids and none of them have freshened, but their conformation is lovely. I am very excited to see how they do in the show ring!



Since the buck was recently purchased by you, I'm assuming that he is different lines than your girls that you're using him on. If this is NOT the case, then what follows won't matter. My input is based solely on math & odds coupled with (my self assessed) common sense rather than inbreeding/line breeding experience. 

If he's inbred 14% and you are breeding him to your existing (new/different lines), the offspring would drop - at 50% genetics from each parent. Since the surviving kids were "lovely" and you are excited at their show ring prospects, I would continue to breed him to the older does, but would NOT use him on his produced offspring as that would raise the inbreeding percentage back up for the future offspring. Perhaps you could go back to your previous buck to breed the new buck's offspring? or... Have you considered using AI for your does for a cycle (or 2) to bring in outside genetics?


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 24, 2016)

I think there are some members of this forum who do not believe in breeding animals that are related.
Others have no issues with breeding as closely as Father to Daughter or Mother to Son or Half Brother/Sister.
I think all agree you should not breed full Brother/Sister.

I bred a Half Brother/Sister this year, so I will let you know how that turns out.

With that said, 14% is not what I would consider closely bred.
And like LateStarter said, if your does were not related, your offspring were an even lower percentage.
I don't think the fact that he was 14% line bred led to your birth defects.
But, the fact that he was new could mean that he was the cause.  Or, it could be totally unrelated.


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## SheepGirl (Feb 24, 2016)

I used a ram this year on my ewes who is related to all of them. Bred him to his mother, his full sisters, his half sisters, and his nieces. Some of his nieces are also his half sisters. So all very closely related. So far 7 ewes have produced 10 lambs, two have passed away. One due to injury/cold (I'm guessing, she died overnight) and the other, the dam had a ruptured tendon so I'm not sure if he died during labor or not. Otherwise I haven't had any issues. This is not the first time I've linebred/inbred. I've also bred father/daughter, dam/son, and full sibs previously.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 24, 2016)

I don't think that is too close especially if your does are unrelated.

What were the birth defects? missing anus, missing  eyes... internal organ issues?  Did you necropsy?

How close was the buck in relation to the doe?

Personally I think sheep and meat goats are completely different as most are terminal animals. 

Dairy goats I think are quite different. We don't line breed and don't like anything too closely related... perhaps it is carried over from my canine years... destroyed great breeds and we now have horrible AKC registered animals that may have a pedigree but are truly horrible. 
Can look pretty on the outside but oh goodness... what is on the inside. 

You should do what you feel comfortable with. 14% isn't  considered a big deal.


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## Goats are Great (Feb 25, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> I don't think that is too close especially if your does are unrelated.
> 
> What were the birth defects? missing anus, missing  eyes... internal organ issues?  Did you necropsy?
> 
> ...



The ones I raise are dairy and show animals so I am shooting for something that is great in the milk department and in the show ring. 

One kid was born breathing and then died shortly after birth. She was a first freshener not related to the buck. 

Another doe had a set of twins both born alive and then died. One we had opened up by the vet and she an issue with her large intestines not growing to the proper size to be functional. The other lived a week and then started to get sick acting.. he did have a few coccidia in his fecal, but nothing that should have killed him.. The vet gave us meds just to be safe... we gave him one treatment... 24 hours later he had a death convolution and died... We did not have him opened up... but it seemed to be a stomach issue... like his twin...  

The doe is not related to the buck, but she is the result of a half sibling breeding on her sires side. She is from closely bred line. She was born 2010 and has been bred every year since 2011 and never had issue until now. After I bred her to a line bred buck... but not one who is related to her... 

The buck was brought in because I am trying to blend this new line with my lines to correct some issues that keep being passed down... So he is only directly related to one of my does... and not one that had a problem... 

It could just be a fluke... I guess i wont know until I decide if Ill use him again.... I have never been a big fan in line breeding... its just ive started dabbling because its hard to get constancy in your kids and develop a "herd type" without doing it... outcrossing are such a gamble... but at the same time much healthier... 

I thought that the buck being line bred wouldn't be a problem since hes not related to my does...
It might have nothing to do with him... but it just seems like since there has never been a problem until now... it might be him...


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## Goats are Great (Feb 25, 2016)

SheepGirl said:


> I used a ram this year on my ewes who is related to all of them. Bred him to his mother, his full sisters, his half sisters, and his nieces. Some of his nieces are also his half sisters. So all very closely related. So far 7 ewes have produced 10 lambs, two have passed away. One due to injury/cold (I'm guessing, she died overnight) and the other, the dam had a ruptured tendon so I'm not sure if he died during labor or not. Otherwise I haven't had any issues. This is not the first time I've linebred/inbred. I've also bred father/daughter, dam/son, and full sibs previously.




How many generations have you done this for?


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## Goats are Great (Feb 25, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> I think there are some members of this forum who do not believe in breeding animals that are related.
> Others have no issues with breeding as closely as Father to Daughter or Mother to Son or Half Brother/Sister.
> I think all agree you should not breed full Brother/Sister.
> 
> ...





On his five generation pedigree their is a goat that shows up at least 5 times... one 4 times and a few others 3 times... that doesn't seem like alot?

Please dont get me wrong I have the utmost respect for his breeders... they really are very knowledgeable... about such things... and He is a lovely buck! Just about everyone in his imitate family are finished champions. he is related to more than one national champion holder... I think he is awesome!  I just wonder about genetic diversity...


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## Bunnylady (Feb 25, 2016)

Once again, wrong animal (rabbits) . . . . I brought a Netherland Dwarf rabbit doe in, bred her to a few different bucks, no problems with her offspring. When I bred some of her offspring together (half siblings) I started seeing something in my nest boxes that I had never seen before - it has been  dubbed the Max factor (an imported rabbit named Max is thought to be the source in this country); it's a birth defect caused by a recessive gene. Some people are willing to work around it, but I finally just eliminated the whole line to get rid of it. For me, that time, that worked; with recessive traits, both parents have to have the defective gene, and I was close enough to the source to identify it and remove it. Unfortunately, nothing guarantees that I won't get a Max factor carrier the next time I buy a rabbit (other than the word of the breeder, and we know what that may be worth). If I randomly buy two such animals, I could be breeding what I thought were completely unrelated animals and still be getting Max factor babies.

Inbreeding doesn't cause birth defects; it just gives the genes in a smaller gene pool a better chance of pairing up and expressing themselves. That goes for the good as well as the bad, which is why people are willing to do it in the first place. Outcrossing doesn't guarantee that the "bad" genes won't get a chance to pair up; it just makes it less likely. If the issue that caused your kids' death is a recessive trait, your does would have to carry it as well for it to appear in the kids. A straightforward dominant trait would affect the buck as well; though there are some traits that have a range of expression where some individuals have major issues and others are hardly affected at all. 

Unless this is a case where two separate lines just happen to carry the same "bad" trait, and it hasn't been noted within that line (how likely is that? Wouldn't the breeder notice, and wouldn't they say something?), however inbred the particular animals are, if they are unrelated, then the likelihood of genetic issues when breeding them together is just as low as if you were breeding random, unrelated animals that aren't inbred.


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## Goats are Great (Feb 25, 2016)

Bunnylady said:


> Once again, wrong animal (rabbits) . . . . I brought a Netherland Dwarf rabbit doe in, bred her to a few different bucks, no problems with her offspring. When I bred some of her offspring together (half siblings) I started seeing something in my nest boxes that I had never seen before - it has been  dubbed the Max factor (an imported rabbit named Max is thought to be the source in this country); it's a birth defect caused by a recessive gene. Some people are willing to work around it, but I finally just eliminated the whole line to get rid of it. For me, that time, that worked; with recessive traits, both parents have to have the defective gene, and I was close enough to the source to identify it and remove it. Unfortunately, nothing guarantees that I won't get a Max factor carrier the next time I buy a rabbit (other than the word of the breeder, and we know what that may be worth). If I randomly buy two such animals, I could be breeding what I thought were completely unrelated animals and still be getting Max factor babies.
> 
> Inbreeding doesn't cause birth defects; it just gives the genes in a smaller gene pool a better chance of pairing up and expressing themselves. That goes for the good as well as the bad, which is why people are willing to do it in the first place. Outcrossing doesn't guarantee that the "bad" genes won't get a chance to pair up; it just makes it less likely. If the issue that caused your kids' death is a recessive trait, your does would have to carry it as well for it to appear in the kids. A straightforward dominant trait would affect the buck as well; though there are some traits that have a range of expression where some individuals have major issues and others are hardly affected at all.
> 
> Unless this is a case where two separate lines just happen to carry the same "bad" trait, and it hasn't been noted within that line (how likely is that? Wouldn't the breeder notice, and wouldn't they say something?), however inbred the particular animals are, if they are unrelated, then the likelihood of genetic issues when breeding them together is just as low as if you were breeding random, unrelated animals that aren't inbred.




I think this one of the best explanations I've heard.... Thank you!

The doe that lost both her kids is from a half sibling breeding on a line bred buck... one kid I had the vet open up and did in fact die of a congenital defect in her large intestines... The other kid I didn't bother having opened up... I was just done with the whole terribly sad ordeal.... I had already lost a kid from another doe... Plus these two... I only had 12 kids so losing three is a big deal...

The buck comes from a line of goats that are extremely line bred with many generations of doubling up... To shrink the gene pool and get more consistency. He was bred by people Who are very knowledgeable... I have the utmost respect  for them as breeders...

I just wonder if all this line breeding might be giving us immediate show results, but hurting the breed in the long run?


I'm just as guilty of line breeding... I do it often... Nothing super close... But cousins and the occasional half sibling... Or uncle to niece... But I brought him in to bring some genetic diversity without totally losing my consistency...

Do you think that breeding two very inbred animals who are not from the same bloodline could still double up the bad genes? Maybe they have the same recessive genes that cause congenital birth defect's?


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## Latestarter (Feb 25, 2016)

You may end up creating Godzilla goat!  just joking... It's always possible, but you won't know for sure until/unless you try it to see if each has the gene(s)...


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## Goats are Great (Feb 25, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> You may end up creating Godzilla goat!  just joking... It's always possible, but you won't know for sure until/unless you try it to see if each has the gene(s)...




I suppose it's probably not worth doing a genetic profile on them...


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## Fullhousefarm (Mar 2, 2016)

I'm relatively new to goats. That said, a local breeder/friend said she likes around 16% linebred in her goats. (Dairy goats- show and milk 300+days) Our doe was bred to her buck this year and babies (twin doelings) are almost exactly 16% linebred. So far- they look awesome. She has the advantage of kidding out 20+ does a year and has been working with some of these lines for 20 years.

Our buck will be a total outcross since I want to start with a buck that I can breed to all my does, and most does in the same lines would also be too closely related to at least one of my does. With just having one Lamancha buck on my property, I want to be able to use him on everybody for at least two years!


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## SheepGirl (Mar 10, 2016)

Yes, it is possible to outcross (breed two unrelated animals) and have a birth defect pop up. Last year I bred my 3/4 Babydoll Southdown x 1/4 Montadale ewe (who has an inbreeding coefficient of 25%; her parents are twins to each other) to a 1/2 Finnsheep x 1/2 Dorset ram -- so completely unrelated (different breeds in the crosses). She had a ram lamb that was born without an anus and passed away. This ewe's twin sister was bred to the same ram, and had two normal ewe lambs. So it's completely possible.


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