# Weak Pasterns-what would you do



## Bridgemoof (Aug 16, 2012)

So of the 5 little jacob/icelandic lambs we bought back in April, 2 of them have the very weak pastern problem. You may have seen me mention it in posts before. We've been giving them the BoSe injections regularly based on our vet and what others here have said. Beastiie, the ram, seems to be doing a bit better. But poor Snowcap, he's a wreck.

His front 2 hooves are all the way on the ground, and has been having a very hard time getting around. When it rained the other day I realized how much skinnier he was than the rest. Then, just 2 days ago I noticed something even worse. One of his back hooves was flipped all the way backwards and he was walking with it that way on his ankle bone. It just made me sick. He still has a good appetite and everything, and his little body is full of muscle. But his pasterns, ugh.

We brought him up and put him in a stall so I could at least feed him. We put a split on his back leg and hoof so it wouldn't flip backwards. He's just a mess and I didn't intend for him to be a slaughter lamb, but now it looks like that may be the only thing we can do with him. 

I just love him and didn't want to have to put him in the freezer.   I'm really sad about it.

What would you guys do if you were in this situation? He's 6 months old and probably only weighs about 40 pounds.


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## Roving Jacobs (Aug 16, 2012)

Someone I know with Icelandics has been having problems with copper deficiency with similar symptoms. I guess they need more copper than the average sheep. She whipped up a concoction of red cell and some other stuff and it fixed them right up. Did your vet run a blood test to see if they were Se deficient or just guess? Before making any decisions I would have bloodwork done if you can afford it.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 16, 2012)

I would be giving him a shot of BoSe. He is probably selenium deficient.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 16, 2012)

The vet didn't even see him, it was a guess. We've been giving him BoSe shots every 3 weeks. I will check into the copper deficiency and yes, I will get the vet to do bloodwork. 

It's good that there is a glimmer of hope for a cure! Thanks so much!


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## SheepGirl (Aug 16, 2012)

Weak pasterns can usually be fixed with a vitamin B shot. You can get it at any feed store usually.


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## cedarcurve (Aug 16, 2012)

you have some kind of serious mineral deficiency

if the se doesn't work by now-- then quit giving it to them.. you'll over dose them easily.

what is your feeding program, and do the sheep limp?.


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## purplequeenvt (Aug 16, 2012)

It could be a mineral or vitamin deficiency, but it could also be that he just has very poor structure.


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## cedarcurve (Aug 16, 2012)

purplequeenvt said:
			
		

> It could be a mineral or vitamin deficiency, but it could also be that he just has very poor structure.


in either account-- culling is the best option.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 17, 2012)

He has been out on pasture for months. When I first got them back in March (they were about 5-6 weeks) they had a creep feed which I'm sure was high in protein, and some corn here and there. Then when the grass started coming in he was put out with the rest. They've always had access to loose sheep minerals from Southern States. He got his CDT vaccine. He's had the BoSe injections 3 times I think.

SheepGirl, I think you made mention of the Vitamin B in another post, and after looking up the benefits of Vitamin B I didn't see anything referencing the relationship between that and foot and ankle joints. BUT, since you get your knowledge and experience from your old time sheep farmer neighbor, I'm going to trust that you know what you are talking about. I'm going to go to Southern States this morning and get some.

Out of the 5 lambs we bought, 2 have the problem. Beastie and Snowcap had the same father (Jacob) and different mothers. Snowcap had the Icelandic mother. They've all been fed the same thing since I got them. So it's 50/50 whether or not it's genetics or vitamin/mineral deficiency.

I'm still debating having the vet run bloodwork. DH is opposed to it basically.

Thanks everyone for your input.


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## purplequeenvt (Aug 17, 2012)

cedarcurve said:
			
		

> purplequeenvt said:
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I agree. Especially if his pasterns are so bad that it is causing him pain. If they were mine, I would cull the ones with bad legs and start over.


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## SheepGirl (Aug 17, 2012)

Bridgemoof said:
			
		

> SheepGirl, I think you made mention of the Vitamin B in another post, and after looking up the benefits of Vitamin B I didn't see anything referencing the relationship between that and foot and ankle joints. BUT, since you get your knowledge and experience from your old time sheep farmer neighbor, I'm going to trust that you know what you are talking about. I'm going to go to Southern States this morning and get some.
> 
> Out of the 5 lambs we bought, 2 have the problem. Beastie and Snowcap had the same father (Jacob) and different mothers. Snowcap had the Icelandic mother. They've all been fed the same thing since I got them. So it's 50/50 whether or not it's genetics or vitamin/mineral deficiency.


Whenever we would have a lamb down on its pasterns, we'd give 'em a vit B shot and it'd be up within a couple days. But since the two affected have the same sire, it makes me think it's just bad conformation...do you know what the sire's pasterns looked like or his parent's pasterns?


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 17, 2012)

I had to look back and see if I had a picture of their sire and I do. You can't really tell how his pasterns are by this pic, but the fact that he is up and walking about makes me think he's okay. But who knows the history of the whole lineage.








I got the Vitamin B, Sheepgirl, so we'll give it a whirl and see if it helps!


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## SheepGirl (Aug 17, 2012)

Bridgemoof said:
			
		

> I got the Vitamin B, Sheepgirl, so we'll give it a whirl and see if it helps!


Awesome  I am going to call my neighbor and see what he says about the vit B and what it does that helps the weak pasterns.


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## SheepGirl (Aug 17, 2012)

Okay, he said that vitamin B helps the appetite. When sheep have an appetite, they'll eat and they will get the energy they need to walk around and work the tendons and ligaments in their feet/legs, which helps improve weak pasterns. I asked him about your lamb and he said if the vit B shot doesn't work, then it is likely a genetic issue caused by the great grandparents or grandparents of your lamb, not necessarily the parents.

So what I got from it is that it doesn't help it DIRECTLY, but rather what the vit B 'fixes' that helps the lamb.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 17, 2012)

Okay that makes sense, and that connects with what I read about the Vitamin B. It will help their energy levels. Now question is should I just let him roam around and try to forage for himself, or keep him confined and feed him until he gets stronger. Hmmm. Because, after all, we did have him out on the pasture and he was struggling to get around. He was laying down a lot because it was hard for him to walk. I think I'll keep him in the barnyard and try and feed him, and then let him out to exercise.

I'll let you know in a couple days how the progress is after giving him the shots. We gave Beastie the shot, too.

Thanks Sheepgirl for talking to the neighbor guy!


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## Roving Jacobs (Aug 17, 2012)

Do you know if that ram is registered? He's got a nice horn spread but I'm not sure I've ever seen one missing his blaze before. JSBA requires inspection before registering sheep so I don't see many Jacob rams with conformation bad enough to pass on completely fallen pasterns like that. If you're a member of the jacob-list email group you can ask them for more ideas if the B vitamins don't help. They're a real knowledgeable group and happy to help. I'm sorry you're having to go through this with a boy you've grown attached to. Isn't that always the way!


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 17, 2012)

Hi Roving Jacobs, no I believe he is NOT registered. The really sad thing is the other guy, BeastieBoy, my Jacob RAM lamb, was supposed to be my Jacob ram for my flock, and he has pastern problems as well, although not as bad. He seems to be improving a bit, unlike poor Snowcap. Beastie is adorable, sweet, and has FIVE horns, he looks like a wild sea creature. I'll get a picture of him and post it.

I will check with the Jacob list and see what they have to say, also if there is an Icelandic list I will check with them. I still haven't found anything about Icelandic's and copper.

Thank you Roving


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 17, 2012)

Here's a picture of BeastieBoy.





And here is a close up of his hoof. Note, he is not the worse of the two. He and Snowcap both got the Vit B injection today, Beastie is out grazing and Snowcap is laying in the stall, his choice.


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## Roving Jacobs (Aug 17, 2012)

Man, that is so painful looking. Those poor guys. 

Here is where I heard about the copper issues in Icelandics: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/2011-March/011127.html

It caught my attention because the person having issues with wobbly lambs used the same ram as I did and I was worried it was something genetic. None of my lambs from him have had any problems though so I'm pretty sure it was some sort of deficiency. I forget what exactly happened in the end.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 17, 2012)

Okay, it's settled. I am going to get a blood test done to see what I am dealing with here.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 19, 2012)

Well it's been a couple of days since the Vitamin B injection, and he's worse than ever.

Snowcap is completely down now, he can hardly get up at all. His front legs splay out to the sides when he tries to get up and it's pitiful. He doesn't seem to be in pain, but he is practically paralyzed at this point. Tomorrow morning I will get the vet to run bloodwork to see if there could be some miracle cure left yet. If not, we will have to put him down forever. 

Now I think at this point it's maybe not genetics, because I wouldn't think he would go from weak pasterns to completely immobilized. So did we end up giving him too much selenium? Not enough? Is it copper...calcium...or something else. Hopefully the bloodwork will reveal something. I guess it does look like WMD at this point, although there are some things with the symptoms of WMD that don't jive with his exactly.

This is a bummer, I am posting all of this so it might help somebody in the future.


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## bonbean01 (Aug 19, 2012)

Awwww...I'm so sorry...really hope his bloodwork shows something that can be treated


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## SheepGirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Sorry he's doing so poorly  Usually the vit B shot works within a couple days for us.

Could it be a Manganese deficiency?


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## RemudaOne (Aug 19, 2012)

Sorry to hear he's unimproved . I was so hoping he would be feeling better. I hope the bloodwork reveals something for you.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 19, 2012)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> Sorry he's doing so poorly  Usually the vit B shot works within a couple days for us.
> 
> Could it be a Manganese deficiency?


Manganese? Oh no. Now I have to look up everything about that.  I can't believe he would be that deficient in any mineral since they get them free choice at all times. BUt...who knows.


I know, this is a major bummer.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 19, 2012)

I just looked up manganese deficiency and here is what I found:

_Magnesium deficiency in sheep most commonly occurs in acute form within 4-6 weeks of lambing. Affected ewes exhibit sensitivity to touch and trembling of the facial muscles; some are unable to move, others move stiffly; extreme cases collapse and show repeated tetanic spasms with all four limbs rigidly extended._

I don't think it's that.

I wonder if it's something viral or bacterial, and giving him an injection of penicillin couldn't hurt?


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## SheepGirl (Aug 19, 2012)

I read somewhere that manganese causes weak pasterns and legs...didn't mention age/sex of sheep affected. Hmmm.

If it's an infection, he'll have a temp.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 19, 2012)

omg GOOD call Sheepgirl, I totally overlooked taking his temperature! I didn't even think of it. I just took it and it was 104.2. We gave him a shot of LA200 and a shot of Bantamine.

It seems to me that a couple months ago both Snowcap and Beastie had low grade fevers. They didn't seem to be feeling that good.I thought it was the heat. We gave them both shots of LA200 at that time and they seemed better the next day.

Wouldn't it be something if the LA200 fixed him? Oh man. Keep your fingers crossed!


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## bonbean01 (Aug 19, 2012)




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## RemudaOne (Aug 19, 2012)

bonbean01 said:
			
		

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X2


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## bluebirdsnfur (Aug 20, 2012)

So sorry your little boys are not doing better. That really does suck. I hope they do get better.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 20, 2012)

Alright everyone, here's the lowdown.

I spoke with 2 vets this morning. The one vet, who I highly regard, thought that you couldn't tell much from the blood work as far as mineral deficiencies go. He said if we end up putting Snowcap down he could do a liver biopsy on him and maybe tell something. So he basically wrote him off.

The second vet I spoke with also said that once the lambs get to that point, and if they haven't responded to the BoSe treatments, that there's nothing else that can be done. She thought it was probably not a mineral deficiency since the entire flock was not affected. I told her they had weak pasterns since we got them, and she ascertained that since they were weaned so young and were predisposed to weak genetics anyways, that weaning them before 12 weeks probably really hurt them. They were about 5-7 weeks when we got them and they went directly to creep feed.

So they both said there was nothing we can do for him.   And since we gave him the shot of LA200, it stays in there system for up to 28 days so we can't eat him. Not that I want to eat him, but it's just kind of a waste. I guess little Snowcap will make a beautiful hide for my chair. 

I told them Beastie was better off than Snowcap at this point, and they said just keep up the BoSe treatments with him. Hopefully he will grow out of it. We will take Snowcap's liver to the one vet to do a biopsy just to be sure there wasn't something viral, or bacterial or mineral/vitamin deficiency.

Tim once again reminded me that IT'S A FARM ANIMAL. FARM ANIMALS DIE SOMETIMES> pooh on him.


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## RemudaOne (Aug 20, 2012)

Awww, sorry the news wasn't better for you and your guy . Two like opinions are pretty firm, but take comfort there will be no more suffering. Glad you will do the biopsy, that will at least let you know what was going on there. 

Not to be cold or uncaring, but if you don't want him to go to waste, if you have dogs.... He would be great feed for them. I feed the frozen parts that I get from the processor (bones, heart, liver, etc). In the heat we've been having, my LGDs really enjoy and appreciate them.


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## bonbean01 (Aug 20, 2012)

Sorry the news was not good


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## Roving Jacobs (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm so sorry the vets couldn't help more. I'm glad you're getting the biopsy done though, that should ease your mind about your remaining boy. There's nothing wrong with mourning, even if it is a farm animal. They still touch our lives.


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks you guys, it's sad.

I think I will give the lamb to my dogs, after the biopsy to make sure there isn't something dangerous to them.


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## jhm47 (Aug 20, 2012)

I would NEVER allow dog(s) to eat an animal that I didn't want them to develop a taste for.  Allowing them to eat this one will possibly give them the idea that sheep are nothing but food (tasty at that).  It's a small step from eating a dead lamb to graduating to live ones.  JMHO.


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## purplequeenvt (Aug 20, 2012)

jhm47 said:
			
		

> I would NEVER allow dog(s) to eat an animal that I didn't want them to develop a taste for.  Allowing them to eat this one will possibly give them the idea that sheep are nothing but food (tasty at that).  It's a small step from eating a dead lamb to graduating to live ones.  JMHO.


Most dogs will never make the connection. We feed our dogs chicken, lamb, beef, etc... all the time and they never go out and kill a live one.


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## RemudaOne (Aug 21, 2012)

purplequeenvt said:
			
		

> jhm47 said:
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I agree.  Just make sure if you do feed the bones, that they are raw. Cooked bones are brittle and will splinter.  All of the meat I give my dogs is raw.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't think she's saying she'd let the dogs eat off the carcass.  The dogs will never make the connection between lamb meat in a bowl vs. an actual lamb.


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## bonbean01 (Aug 21, 2012)

I agree...and l like the idea of giving them frozen when it is super hot...will have to use that idea


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## Bossroo (Aug 21, 2012)

Dog says ... mmmm! raw food in dish tasts so good... hmmm ...  raw food  smells just like that lovely critter over there ...   being a true  carnivourous canine that always trusts it's nose ,  I think I just might like to see if that critter tasts as good as that raw food in my dish...


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## Bridgemoof (Aug 21, 2012)

lol you guys. Okay there will be no more disagreements over what to do with Snowcap. Tim had our guy Lencho bury the meat! He was uneasy not knowing if there was something wrong with him that would not be good for our dogs to eat.

Not that our chihuahua or miniature schnauzer is going to go after a sheep  

But hey, our Catahoula Leopard dog might! He hangs around the goats and sheep drooling plenty. And he has take a chicken or two as reward to protect them all the time. I wouldn't even be surprised if he dug up that lamb. I hope Lencho buried him way far away on the other side of the creek!

So, rest in peace sweet little Snowcap.


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## aggieterpkatie (Aug 22, 2012)

So sorry.


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