# CDT in grass fed sheep



## Cornish Heritage (Mar 19, 2012)

Hey folks, 

Rolling some things around in our heads, one of which is the question, "Is CDT really necessary in grass fed, always pastured sheep?" I know the "experts" say it is & it has always been the given but not everything about commercial farming is correct or necessary for others. 

i know many of you on here feed grain to your sheep & I fully understand the need for CDT in case they eat too much of it. When we had goats they were notorious for breaking out, getting into the grain. That was many years ago when we knew less & were told they had to have grain to thrive. I am now of the opinion that ruminants do not need grain to thrive & we have purchased breeds that can thrive on grass/hay alone. We were advised to feed our St. Croix a small amount of grain a day when pregnant but I am now weaning them off & that will be the last grain they get. To keep them "following" the bucket when we want them to come we are going to feed pure organic Alfalfa pellets as a treat. 

SO in this situation, where they are on pasture all year round, eating grass or hay do they really need CDT? I am not a big advocate of vaccinations, believing that the animals should be allowed to build up their own immunities etc.

Your thoughts, please.

Liz


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## secuono (Mar 19, 2012)

I'd like to know this answer, too! Mine eat near nothing but grass, they won't even eat hay.


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## ShadyAcres (Mar 19, 2012)

From the University of Maryland, http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/CD-Tvaccinations.html :

_"Vaccines are cheap insurance against diseases that commonly affect sheep and goats. It is generally recommended that sheep and goats be vaccinated against three clostridial diseases: clostridium perfringins type C and D and clostridium tetani (tetanus). *Clostridia bacteria are normal inhabitants of the soil *and sometimes the animals gut."_

My question is how much is enough?  Vets have been debating the issue of the necessity of yearly vaccinations on adult dogs (and other species) for a while now.  How many years of vaccinating does it take for immunity to build up?  (Humans get very little vaccinations as adults.)  

I understand that most vaccines protect against several diseases and it is usually cheaper to go with a multi than individual, such as tetanus, and that a properly protected adult protects the unborn or nursing baby, but at what point are we doing more harm than good?

Good question Liz.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 19, 2012)

I always vaccinate, because like the quote says, it's cheap insurance.  Tetanus is awful and very hard to successfully treat, so if I can do a once yearly vaccine to prevent it, I'm all for it.  I'd be curious also to see if there is a need to do a vaccine every year, but I still vaccinate every year to give lambs the passive immunity.  I'm not sure if there have been studies done to show ill effects from the vaccine, but I'd be surprised if there were any ill effects.  

I say even if your sheep don't eat grain, still vaccinate. I've never had a sheep eat more grain than I give them (my sheep have never "busted in" to the feed).  It's not always related to grain consumption, and milk fed and pasture fed animals are still susceptible to the disease. This  article has some good information, but be prepared...the neon green text is horrible to read.  

And after reading this:  





> Death is usually the first sign of the disease.  Enterotoxemia progresses very rapidly, with death occurring within two hours after onset of clinical signs.
> 
> Some animals will show some symptoms of colic, muscle tremors, or convulsions.  However, the animal may rise between seizures, but soon will collapse again.  Some other nervous system signs are frothing of the mouth, grinding of the teeth, and oscillations of the eyes.  Diarrhea may also be present.


That alone is enough to make me want to vaccinate.


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## nomad (Mar 19, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> Hey folks,
> 
> Rolling some things around in our heads, one of which is the question, "Is CDT really necessary in grass fed, always pastured sheep?" I know the "experts" say it is & it has always been the given but not everything about commercial farming is correct or necessary for others.
> 
> ...


Here are my 2 cents worth on the matter.  The quick answer in my opinion is NO to needing to vaccinate.  Let me explain.  Years ago, we were heavy into the grain, chemical deworming, and pharmaceutical treatments for illnesses that are pervasive in our mainstream (big Pharma, corporate) paradigm.  As a society, we have been trained to believe the notion that the answer lies in the bottle.  We have come a long way from our forefathers who solved their problems before the advent of a quick and easy fix.  Therein lies the problem.  The answer to our problems (particularly those dealing with the natural world) are somewhere right in front of us and the path to success can be found if we are only willing to possess eyes to see and ears to hear.  Our forefathers possessed a better working knowledge of the interaction between self (both human and animal)  and environment.  Nature is incredibly symbiotic, that is why nothing can be studied in a deductive manner, but must be explored as a part of the whole.

We gave up the chemical world several years ago and our only regret is why did it take us so long to do so?  I do not say this flippantly.  I only believe something to be true after it has been thoroughly researched and then put into practice for an adequate amount of time so as to affirm its accuracy and relevance.  That is what true science has always been about  seeking to find what is true rather than trying to make truth.

Since we have made our 180 degree transformation, we have not lost a single animal to worms even though we have not dewormed our herds/flocks for several years now.  We have not lost a single animal to enterotoxemia since we quit using vaccines and treatments for clostridium.   That is not to say that we have not lost any animals in the last several years, that would be foolish to say.  Look to nature.  Even in nature there is an inherent mortality rate in every species of animal, particularly prey animals.  So even in a complete 100% pasture raised management scheme, you will still lose animals and possibly even to clostridium overinfection.    I say overinfection because there are many bacteria, including clostridium naturally in the gut of ruminants.  They are kept in check when the animal is healthy, but can become a problem when the animal lacks proper nutrition and becomes unhealthy.  The absolute cheapest insurance out there is good health  this applies to both humans and animals.  Every single time we lost an animal, it was because I failed to notice that it was lacking something important in its diet and when the signs showed up, it was too late to correct its health.  I might add that we never lose the more dominant animals in a herd or flock  it is always the lowest on the totem pole.  Studies have shown that socially challenged animals are less aggressive at finding proper nourishment than their more dominant counterparts.  That is why these animals are the ones most susceptible to illness.

I believe the more appropriate question is in the interest of preventing a possible loss every once in a while, do I engage in a process that is possibly more detrimental across a broader spectrum?.  In other words  - is the cure worse than the illness?  Concerning pharmaceuticals, I believe the answer is yes.  I do not want to ingest these chemicals myself, therefore, I do not allow them to enter into my food chain.  My goal is to raise only those animals that possess great health  any other animal is not worthy of being fed to my children.

There is much research out there to justify anyone's position.  The first question I ask is Who funded the research?  Pharmaceutical companies are notorious for funding research and then quoting a single sentence or two out of the study to back up their product even though the conclusion itself pointed to a different outcome.  Every person we choose to listen to becomes our advisor whether we know it or not.  Choose your advisors well.

I will pull a little information from a researcher that I have come to trust (through implementing his findings and seeing the results of course) and I would recommend that all check out his research over the last several decades.  He does not casually throw out information, he quotes studies all the time and dissects their conclusions and footnotes his work so you can look up where he obtained his information.  His name is Dr. Ray Peat and he can be found on raypeat.com.   He will certainly challenge your paradigm concerning health and well-being.

This is a quote from one of his papers  - anything in parentheses is my paraphrasing : Shock, caused by the injection of endotoxin (from possibly clostridium), which is 100% lethal to normally fed animals (meaning grain fed), is only 24% lethal to the deficient (lacking unhealthy polyunsaturated fats present in processed feeds) animals.  We have found this to be true as I mentioned above.

Hope this info helps.  It is merely an expression of my paradigm concerning health and well-being.


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## secuono (Mar 19, 2012)

Same thing with the general public abusing over the counter and prescription drugs. Most do not need it, but they whine about every little thing and to shut them up, the docs give them it. It makes the bacteria, parasite and what-have-you stronger and more resistant. That's why so many things are now hard to kill and we keep having to use stronger and more dangerous drugs.


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## SheepGirl (Mar 19, 2012)

Our sheep are primarily grass-fed...only getting grain during lactation, late gestation, and growth. Right now, the sheep are splitting one pound of grain between them, just to get/keep them friendly (since we haven't had lambs since 2010, they haven't been fed very much grain). Our sheep are doing well; they're fat and happy.

CD/T is primarily protection against bacteria for lambs, but adult sheep can still get tetanus. That said, we still vaccinate, even though we haven't had any bred ewes or lambs since 2010...up 'til now when my ram escaped and bred his mother back in January.

Both Enterotoxemia types C & D (bloody scours and pulpy kidney disease, respectively) are caused by a sudden change in feed which allows _Clostridium perfringins_ bacteria to reproduce in the gut. This can be increased grain consumption, increased milk consumption, or increased pasture consumption (especially when spring grass starts to become lush). This bacteria is present in all sheep, regardless of diet. The sheep all have immunity to this little bit of naturally-occurring bacteria--it's the fast and sudden proliferation of hundreds (if not thousands) of bacteria that their immune systems aren't prepared for if they aren't vaccinated.

Tetanus is caused by _Clostridium tetani_ which is present in the soil. Any wound (docking, castrating, or injury) can cause an unprotected lamb to get tetanus.

All three of these diseases have treatment that usually doesn't work.

Even though we vaccinate, we all must remember that vaccines aren't 100% effective...even doses given from the same bottle. Yes, they greatly reduce the incidence of disease and may even eliminate it, but you may still have animals affected by _Clostridium_ bacteria (as well as other species of bacteria). We vaccinate our sheep every year for CD/T. We had one ewe a couple years ago who give birth to twin ram lambs and one of the ram lambs developed tetanus. It was an awful way to go and not only was he stiff and shaking and could barely move, he was also slowly dying of starvation and dehydration. He was the only case of a _Clostridium_ infection we've had.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 19, 2012)

I definitely think we should be wise when vaccinating animals (like someone mentioned, dogs don't really need ALL the vaccines yearly), but let's remember as a whole, how many diseases have been greatly reduced or wiped out thanks to vaccines.  That's why I choose to vaccinate wisely.


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## Cornish Heritage (Mar 19, 2012)

> The first question I ask is Who funded the research?


LOL! A cynic after my own heart  There is SO much corruption out there not only in animal research but also as Secuono said regarding people too. My hubby works part time on the local ambulance & the abuse that he sees of the system is SO sad. 

We do believe in the survival of the fittest here on the farm & some may not agree with that. Does that mean that we do not care about our animals? No! What it means is that we do not pamper to them. If the mama will not look after her babies then she needs to be taken out of the genetics. We want the next generation to be even stronger than the last rather than weaker which is opposite to what the big corporate farms are doing. One of these days that industry may well implode as the animals will be so resistant to all the "good" medicines out there that when something happens & they need help there is not going to be any.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this - it is good to hear "opposite" views. 

Thanks, 

Liz


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