# Scouring again and lost for a solution.



## Pearce Pastures (Aug 19, 2011)

Well here we go again and I have a bunch of questions...Our two Nigerians and pygmy kids are scouring again (dark green, loose, and smelly).  They have already had two antibiotics treatments, have been vaccinated for CDT, have done a round of Dimethox 40% and Corid, and have had one round of Ivermectin.

1) This week, I started to wean them from the bottle (they will be ten weeks on Wednesday).  I am thinking that maybe their little tummies are just upset from the transition but I am very worried.  Have any of you bottle-feeders had this happen and if so, what do you do?  

2) I know they are eating hay, browse and Noble goat feed and are drinking water but when I went out tonight, one Nigerian refused the bottle altogether, the other drank some but not all (the pygmy inhaled it as usual).  Is that normal for them to go from "GIMMME THE MILK" to "nah I'm good"?  

3)Could this possibly be coccidia given they have been treated twice?  

4) I'm also kind of worried about the Nigerian's weights.  They seem so thin to me (part of that could be that the pygmy is so stout by comparison but still).  How much do you think a ten week old Nigerian doe should weigh?

I think I am going to maybe give some pepto tonight but would appreciate any insight you all have.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 19, 2011)

It is not normal for them to try to wean themselves.  I would say the one refussing the bottle is not feeling well. 

I wouldn't care to guess if it is cocci again, Has it been 3 weeks since the last treatment?   The answer to your question is, Yes, it could be cocci again. 

In my experience once a goat has stomach problems they may continue to have a touchy stomach.  I purchased a bottle baby last fall that had a very touchy stomach and every time a changed the feeding program a  little or moved him to a new pen or field he would start scouring. They normally will outgrow this but it can take some time. 

You are probably correct in thinking your goats are under weight and not growing properly, my guess is with their stomach problems they are not digesting properly. 

tapeworms come to mind, have they been wormed with any kind of wormer that treats tapeworms?  

Runny green poop is normally dietary or bacterial. so that brings us to your vaccination not working properly and they may need to be treated with  C&D antitoxin and then revaccinated. 

Have you given them probiotics?  With that much treating their stomachs could just be very upset and they may need some daily probiotics to get them back on track. I would suggest Probios paste over a powder. It tastes bad and they wont willingly eat it, will have to be put on the back of the tongue. 
Vitamin B shots would be on my list of things to do, But vitamin B injectable of any  kind is hard to come by. 

Sorry for so many ideas.


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 19, 2011)

THANK YOU!!  Omigosh, I am so grateful for many ideas.

Alright, I am thinking we re-vaccinate with fresh CD and T, and maybe do another DiMethox treatment (the solution looks very strange though and I might need to order more-it was clear and now its all cloudy).  Now CD antitoxin is something immediate action though, right?  Wonder if TSC would have it.  I think they have probios too, but not sure if it is a paste or powder-will check in a minute online.

Tapeworms---I am thinking no because we only have done the ivermectin and I am pretty sure that doesn't kill them.  I do have unopened safeguard I could hit them with though and I think that does do tapes (although I have heard how resistant to this med worms are becoming).

Okay...primal scream time and then back to figuring this out.


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## Goatmasta (Aug 19, 2011)

I would give another round of Dimethox 40% (orally) 1cc/5lbs 1st day then 1cc/10lbs for 4 more days.  I would treat them all.  If they are under weight I would guess that they have damage from the cocci and it may take some time for them to actually put on any weight, probably once they stop growing.  Cocci scars the intestine and limits absorption, so if there is significant damage they just will not grow right and often times they will be under weight.


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## elevan (Aug 19, 2011)

I would do the safeguard too...3x the label dose.  Valbazen is better but since you have the safeguard....


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## kstaven (Aug 20, 2011)

Antibiotics can disrupt the balance of gut flora. So that is something to consider. As can combinations of some wormers.

Weaning kids and scours. We have had good success with plain gelatin and lacto bacillus.


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## Roll farms (Aug 20, 2011)

I don't like to stop the poops w/pepto (or the livestock equivalent) without knowing the cause.  I have used a product called, 'Revitalyte Gelling' from TSC a/o Jeffers supply that is a vitamin / electrolyte that gels up / stops the diarrhea.  Also give probiotics or plain cultured yogurt.

I'd have a fecal ran for ea. goat, take fresh samples in and ask for seperate tests for ea. one.  

I've heard of places 'misdiagnosing' cocci and various worm issues....hopefully a good test will get you info on what the problem is.

OR....just give them SMZ-TMP, that should kill anything bacterial OR cocci.  
Our vet suggests one whole pill per 75# of goat, so I just cut them into thirds and give one piece per 25# of goat, crushed and dissolved into water / drenched down their throat.

Good luck.


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## ksalvagno (Aug 20, 2011)

If the vet only has the liquid SMZ-TMP, then it is 1cc per 2 lbs. My vet only carries the liquid so that is what I use.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 20, 2011)

Roll farms/ said:
			
		

> OR....just give them SMZ-TMP, that should kill anything bacterial OR cocci.
> Our vet suggests one whole pill per 75# of goat, so I just cut them into thirds and give one piece per 25# of goat, crushed and dissolved into water / drenched down their throat.
> 
> Good luck.


SMZ-TMP comes in different pill sizes- we carry 2 at the clinic I work for.  Which mg/pill was that Roll?


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 20, 2011)

Last night, I wormed all three with Safeguard and got some plain Greek yogurt into them (they did not appreciate my help).This morning the pygmy is doing better, one Nigerian is eating, the other nibbled some hay and they are acting okay.  The Nigerians both have wet rear-ends though.

I went ahead and had my husband call the vet.  He said jokingly that I was smothering them-I kind of think he really does believe I am overreacting and should just let them be.  Maybe I am or maybe not but I don't think i should do nothing?   He told me not to give them anymore milk and remove their feed so they only eat hay and water until this clears up and he wants me to go out and just watch them for awhile to see if I notice any breathing issues in the one who isn't eating much. I am also going to get temps and have hubby run down a sample.  

Making a TSC run in a few to get some probios, Revitalyte Gel, and fresh CDT vaccine too.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 20, 2011)

I personally would not have a "wait and see" approach to a scouring kid.  Dog logs in an adult I don't panic over, but kids don't scour for no reason at all.  And refusing a bottle is a red flag.  I think it's a good idea to get your vet involved (if your vet is knowledgeable about goats).  It's expensive to call the vet every time there's an issue, but identify the issue and get them treated with the guidance of your vet and you'll gain some valuable experience in the process and might be better able to prevent or handle the situation in the future without calling the vet out.


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## Roll farms (Aug 20, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I personally would not have a "wait and see" approach to a scouring kid.  Dog logs in an adult I don't panic over, but kids don't scour for no reason at all.  And refusing a bottle is a red flag.  I think it's a good idea to get your vet involved (if your vet is knowledgeable about goats).  It's expensive to call the vet every time there's an issue, but identify the issue and get them treated with the guidance of your vet and you'll gain some valuable experience in the process and might be better able to prevent or handle the situation in the future without calling the vet out.




The SMZ TMP I get are 960 mg


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 20, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I personally would not have a "wait and see" approach to a scouring kid.  Dog logs in an adult I don't panic over, but kids don't scour for no reason at all.  And refusing a bottle is a red flag.  I think it's a good idea to get your vet involved (if your vet is knowledgeable about goats).  It's expensive to call the vet every time there's an issue, but identify the issue and get them treated with the guidance of your vet and you'll gain some valuable experience in the process and might be better able to prevent or handle the situation in the future without calling the vet out.


That is what I was thinking too.  Maybe it could subside with probiotics, fluids, and some scour stop BUT it also could lead to us losing them if we sit on our hands-the vet was probably just teasing but I can't help but wonder if her really thinks I am being a freak about these goats.  We are so blessed to have a deal worked out with our him though where we pretty much just pay for products and not service and dh repairs and maintains doors and operators for him.  

So update:  none have a temp and all are drinking and eating on the fresh hay I put out.  They still are scouring but not as badly.  We re-vaccinated CDT and the vet may be coming in the morning to give an antitoxin.  I also gave them the probio paste and revitalyte-surprised how easily the took it!

I'm going to Google the SMZ TMP because I've never heard of it but I'll be sure to ask the vet tomorrow (I'm thinking this is an Rx?)


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 20, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I don't like to stop the poops w/pepto (or the livestock equivalent) without knowing the cause.  I have used a product called, 'Revitalyte Gelling' from TSC a/o Jeffers supply that is a vitamin / electrolyte that gels up / stops the diarrhea.  Also give probiotics or plain cultured yogurt.
> 
> I'd have a fecal ran for ea. goat, take fresh samples in and ask for seperate tests for ea. one.
> 
> ...


Quick one for you-the mixed up revitalyte-do you toss what you don't use right away or keep it in the fridge for the next dose or just mix up a new batch every so many hours?


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## Beekissed (Aug 20, 2011)

Now would be a great time for some probios to reculture their poor little bowels.  All those antibiotics kill off good flora also.


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## Roll farms (Aug 20, 2011)

I mix 2-3 TBS per cup of water, and mix up only what I need at a time.  Sorry, shoulda told ya that part.  Sometimes things are just so 'autopilot' for me that I forget not everyone can read my mind.  

I agree w/ more probios.  I'd give it to them daily until they clear up.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Aug 21, 2011)

Yes SMZ-TMP is Rx.


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## Pearce Pastures (Aug 21, 2011)

Thanks again. They really like the probios paste so I'll just keep at it-I am sure the poor girls could use it.  The revitalyte seems to have helped big time too-they are running around playing and have their appetites back this morning.  Now just to see what the fecal says and if the vet wants to do an antibiotic, sulfa, or combo.


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## wannacow (Aug 22, 2011)

What about raw ACV in their water?  Someone told me to drench my doeling, but I wasn't comfortable with that.  I put the ACV in the water along with all the treatments I had been doing, and she was better in a day and dry in about 2 1/2.  More and more, when I use raw ACV for my animals and for my family, I'm seeing results.


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## 20kidsonhill (Aug 23, 2011)

I keep hearing about the raw ACV, I need to try this sometime,  excuse my ignorant question, but where do you buy it at?


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## Goatherd (Aug 23, 2011)

Raw ACV can be purchased at GNC, Whole Foods and other health-related stores.  You can also find it on line...even on E-bay.  Possibly your feed store could order it in for you?  My guy can get all kinds of things once I ask him.


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## Beekissed (Aug 24, 2011)

wannacow said:
			
		

> What about raw ACV in their water?  Someone told me to drench my doeling, but I wasn't comfortable with that.  I put the ACV in the water along with all the treatments I had been doing, and she was better in a day and dry in about 2 1/2.  More and more, when I use raw ACV for my animals and for my family, I'm seeing results.


Me too.  ACV is my first line of defense and the first medicine I reach for in animals and for myself.  In medicine, it's always good to go from mild to more heavy solutions....ACV has no adverse affects on the body and it has only good health benefits, so I go there first.  If it doesn't work, then I may consider something stronger.  

If you hit hard and heavy each and every time, you soon run out of meds that will work when they are _really_ needed.  Just like overuse of antibiotics for humans will render them ineffective when it is crucial that they work, the same approach in animals will give the same results.


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## Goatherd (Aug 25, 2011)

> Just like overuse of antibiotics for humans will render them ineffective when it is crucial that they work, the same approach in animals will give the same results.


Amen!


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## Ms. Research (Aug 25, 2011)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> > Just like overuse of antibiotics for humans will render them ineffective when it is crucial that they work, the same approach in animals will give the same results.
> 
> 
> Amen!


X2.  There is more money being invested by pharmecuetical corporations to find a way to cover steriod use by professional atheletes then there is on cancer.   So putting chemicals in your body for reasons of infection or disease is questionable at best.  These strains of viruses are becoming immune to these drugs.  And this will occur with goats, sheep, horses, cows, rabbits, etc.  Example:  Mad Cow Disease.  They had injections for this to prevent it.  And what happened?  The germ became immuned.  Synthetic drugs are just that, a one time thing.   

Just my opinion.


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## NDgal (Sep 7, 2011)

How are the goats and did you get the fecal results?


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