# Probiotics and antibiotics?



## username taken (Jul 6, 2009)

Just wondering if someone can clear something up for me? Can you give probiotics along with antibiotics? I seem to think that somewhere, someone told me either the antibiotics would kill the probiotics, so you are just wasting probiotics. Or the probiotics kill the antibiotics, so your antibiotic doesnt work. Or is that not true, and you can give them together?


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 6, 2009)

You can use them together. We use probios and the directions say to use at the beginning of treatment and again at the end. Depending on what I'm treating for and the appetite of the cow I may give it throughout the treatment too.

May I ask, what you are treating?


----------



## username taken (Jul 6, 2009)

thanks kitty, I knew you'd have the answer 

I'm treating scours in bottle baby kids ... I have them on tribrissen which is a trimethoprim antibiotic with sulfadiazine. Which I figure should take care of any bacterial scours plus cocci. 

It doesnt seem to be clearing them up though, which is why I want to give probiotics as well. 

its a yellow scour which I just cant shake and its driving me nuts  the kids are happy enough just scouring their heads off


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 6, 2009)

How long have you been treating them? Have you tried using a "plugger" such as Deliver so they don't get dehydrated? Or are they doing fine that way?

Have you checked out my misc. page?


----------



## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

Great page kitty!

Okay so here's what I'm doing/I've done:

- havent reduced their milk
- using a milk replacer I have used for years without problems
- keeping an eye on them for dehydration - no dehydration problems whatsoever - if they do get dehydrated will give fluid therapy and electrolytes
- keeping an eye on playfullness and feeding behaviour - nothing out of the ordinary there

- I began with a gentle scour treatment, a scour paste which is just garlic and probiotics, and is usually good for when they just have mild scours and can sort through it themselves. it had no effect
- I was using a 'plugger' which has worked well for me in the past but had no effect on these kids whatsoever. I discontinued use as the antibiotic I have them on is oral, and the plugger cant be used with oral a/b
- they've had 5 days of the trimethoprim/sulfadiazine a/b which has always worked well for me in the past for any GIT infections. tomorrow will be their last dose of it, it hasnt made any difference. 
- tonight I wormed them on the off chance it could be worms
- also gave them a big dose of probiotics

- hygiene is just the same as all the other babies, and I like to think I'm clean without going overboard. they all have separate bottles and teats so not cross contaminating. the bottles/teats get rinsed after each feed (three feeds a day) and washed (hot soapy antibacterial water then rinsed) once a day. pen has fresh bedding added to it daily and fully cleaned out and limed weekly. 
- I've never used boiled water to mix the milk replacer, just normal tap water, but I did boil up some water to use from tomorrow onwards
- they are picking at hay and pellets, not much 

Weighed them tonight, ordinarily my babies start off gaining 1kg per week, and by 3 - 4 wks they do 2kg per week. these guys, 1 of them did the 1kg/week which is good, the others did 400g per week, which is a whole lot better than I expected. I expected them to have 0 gain or have lost weight

but they just arent right, they dont look fat, healthy and sappy/sassy, they have that pinched, slightly unhealthy look. they are also a lot lighter than they should be. 

I dont know if its significant or not, but I can hear their bellies sloshing around when they walk ... I guess that means the milk isnt curdling in the abomasum


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 7, 2009)

With the antibiotics not working, I would try a different one. Sulfa based ones are good but, the bug may not be susceptible to it. I would try penicillin next. It's harder to do with it being a shot instead of in the water but, it maybe what is needed. 

How much are you feeding in each feeding? Here we feed 2 qts (approx. 2 liters) twice a day for newborns and then increase the water as they get older. How old are they? Born on farm or bought?

Weather? I find if it's raining a lot here, scours can be a problem even though they are kept dry.


----------



## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

Yup its been bucketing rain for the last two weeks. They are in a shed and kept dry but I've found the same thing as you, when there is rain there is scours 

They are getting 1L each for the day, split into three feeds (remember they are kids not calves, but fwiw I feed my calves 2L 2x per day just the same as you do). These were started on 5 feeds for the first 2 days, then 4 feeds for a few more days, then onto 3 feeds. How I always do it. These kiddos are about 3 wks old. 

I dont mind doing the shots ... but penn doesnt generally work for much in my area. And with the very small number of drugs registered for use in goats, I am limited to oxytet and trimeth/sulfa. Both of which usually work very very well for me. I'm just confuzzled ... and the vet wont run a faecal culture for me because they've all been treated ... but I told him I'm not stopping treatment for several days just so he can get his sample, likely the kid would be dead by then. 

Born on the neighbours farm ... actually three neighbours farms lol Although we mix stock around a lot between the four of us we have a bit of a partnership, so I would think all four properties and herds would be used to a similar range of 'bugs'. All the kids were quarrantined from each other for the first week, no signs of scours then or otherwise ill health, now they are running together.


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 7, 2009)

Hmmm...........It is puzzling.

When calves are getting a lot of protein their manure turns runny and a green/grayish color. I know you said the kids' have a yellowish color but, could this be the problem with them? I'm just reaching here and trying to think things through.


----------



## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

that is an interesting thought actually, kitty. 

I have always always used a calf replacer for all my animals, lambs, kids, calves, even raised some pigs, kits and foals on it and one fawn. the bag says it is designed for calves but suitable for all animals. its got 28% protein and 21% fat, the absolute premium calf replacer I can get. 

now, whenever I look at speciality lamb and kid replacers, they have less protein than that, and higher fat than that. I've never used one because they tend to be much dearer, and mine worked well. 

but, with all this scouring, I grabbed a bag of it today, and I've put them on it. Its 24% protein and 25% fat. If this clears it up, you might be onto something, and maybe it was just too much protein for them. Its more expensive but if they clear up it will be worth it.


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 7, 2009)

I hope it does the trick.  Maybe due to the weather conditions this batch is just more touchy than others in the past have been.


----------



## username taken (Jul 7, 2009)

Well it looks like two are cleared up today, two badly scouring (one lethargic, one fine), and one almost cleared up. I'm just about to head out and start separating them, the two good ones from the rest, bleach out and lime the pens and put them into a fresh area. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 7, 2009)

Good luck!


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 8, 2009)

How are the kids doing this morning?


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 8, 2009)

How did the kids do today?


----------



## username taken (Jul 9, 2009)

sorry kitty

three have cleared up, two still struggling. of course it doesnt help that I changed them cold turkey to the other milk replacer but I just wanted to get them going on it. this afternoon the two were looking quite dry on their back end, fingers crossed they are still that way tonight


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm glad they are improving! 

Yes, cold turkey switches are hard but, as long as they were the same type (milk based vs. soy based type thing) you can do it. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to go from a milk based milk replacer to a soy based one. Of course, I don't recommend the soy based ones anyway.


----------



## username taken (Jul 9, 2009)

well we agree on something than, I dont recommend the soy based to anyone. milk replacer is not at all an area where you try to save money. cheap is usually pretty useless ... 

even if this doesnt improve the scours, I'm going to stick with it - I'm seeing a lot of good things about it. the kiddos are drinking less and staying fuller for longer - whereas before they were asking for more all the time and drinking 1.5L/hd/day, now they are satisfied and only drinking 0.9 - 1L/hd/day


----------



## username taken (Jul 10, 2009)

good news ... the two little strugglers have picked up ... I was at a loss what to do, so I gave them oxytetracycline this morning, not figuring it would do much because it normally doesnt work for GIT upsets. Well, by this afternoon they both drank a bottle and were looking much improved. 

fingers crossed this continues


----------



## Farmer Kitty (Jul 10, 2009)




----------

