# Update! Not looking good



## babyelle (Feb 8, 2012)

My daughters 10 month old togg still has an appetite but she is losing weight and today I noticed she is shivering. I researched cocci but it appears to be the wrong season for that and Johan's disease doesn't seem to be prevelant in Arizona. Any ideas or suggestions?  Now I am getting nervous...not only has she lost weight and is shivering, but she looks stiff when she tries to lay down. He coat is rough too. We bottle fed her on milk as a newborn that we heated to 160 degrees so she would not contract cae. The miller goat tested cae negative.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 8, 2012)

I would do a fecal, 

and if that is out of the question, I would worm her and treat her for coccidiosis and put her on a round of Penn G.   No point in letting her get any worse.


----------



## babyelle (Feb 8, 2012)

What is penn g? I am heading to the feedstore soon and want to get all I need.  I gave her some nutri-goat this morning. Could copper deficiency cause these symptoms


----------



## elevan (Feb 8, 2012)

PenG is penicillin.

I would do a fecal though.  It could still be coccidia even though the season isn't quite right, we've been having weird weather here (I don't know about you) which is screwing up our seasons.  If you start Penicillin and then it turns out to be coccidia then you're gonna limit your options to treat the coccidia.


----------



## jodief100 (Feb 8, 2012)

I second the fecal.  It could be worms or cocci.  Have you checked her eye color?


----------



## babyelle (Feb 8, 2012)

I did look at her eyes but didn't really know what I was looking for. Do you mail the fecal sample to a lab or can you purchase "at home"kit? I was planning on using safe guard today


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 8, 2012)

Do you have a knowledgable goat vet?  If it were me and I hadn't been able to resolve the problem up to this point I would most certainly get the vet involved.  Goats tank fast- it may be something simple like a heavy worm load but it sounds like she is past the internet diagnosis/google stage.  Her rumen may be empty causing her to look sunken in, but actual loss of condition doesn't happen in a day so she may have been run down longer than you think.  Call the vet.


----------



## jodief100 (Feb 8, 2012)

babyelle said:
			
		

> I did look at her eyes but didn't really know what I was looking for. Do you mail the fecal sample to a lab or can you purchase "at home"kit? I was planning on using safe guard today


Safeguard will probably not help much.  It is so overused the worms are resistant in most parts of the country.  Give it at three times the label dose for 3 days straight and it might help a little but you need to start looking at other wormers.  

Try Vlabazen or Ivermectin injectable, administered orally.  

Call around and see if there is a vet you can drop off a fecal sample at.  Even a small animal vet should be able to do a fecal exam for worms.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 8, 2012)

copper deficiency can cause her to be more acceptable to certain worm loads.


----------



## elevan (Feb 8, 2012)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> babyelle said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


x2

_Safeguard isn't good for much more than Tapeworms here in the US._


----------



## Queen Mum (Feb 9, 2012)

Safeguard is better than nothing and it is a start.  In the meantime, what they mean by checking the eyes is to pull back the eyelid and check to see if the eyelid is pink.  If it is white or nearly white, the goat could be anemic.  This is usually due to worms.  You can also check the goats gums to see if they are white.  

You can give the Safeguard and take a stool sample to a vet to get it checked for worms.  If you can't find a vet, you can also take it to a local medical lab (a fresh sample or one that you kept in the refrigerator overnight in a baggie will do.)  Ask them to check it for worms and parasites.)  The charge should be around 20 - 30 dollars.

Then go to Tractor Supply or Atwoods and ask which worming medicine works for the type of worms that the lab tells you is in the stool sample. 

If the goat has white gums or eyelids you will need to give the goat some Red Cell or some molasses (it has iron in it.)  You can get the red cell at Tractor Supply or Atwoods.  You give about 3 cc  three times a day for about two weeks to get the goats iron levels up or until the eye lids pink up.

In the meantime, give your goat something for energy.  You can also give the goat some vitamins (you can get them at tractor supply or any farm supply store that sells animal electrolytes).  Mix a tablespoon of the animal electrolytes in about a quart of warm water with about a third cup of molasses and feed it to the goat and this will give the goat energy and help keep the goat going while it gets rid of the worms or whatever is making it sick.

You can also get some Penicillan G at the farm supply store and give 1 cc per 40 pounds of goat (in a syringe with an 18 guage needle)  just under the skin.  give that for about 10 days to help with any infection the goat might have.  Pen G is pretty cheap.


----------



## babyelle (Feb 10, 2012)

Thank you for all of the wonderful feedback. I bought the penn g but haven't administered it yet because I didn't know if it would interfere with the wormer. Should I wait a day or two? I will also check here eyes and gums. We feed her goat pellets and alfalfa but not additional minerals. I also bought a bag of goat minerals that I will begin giving her.  Since I gave her the dewormer already is it necessary to do the fecal?


----------



## jodief100 (Feb 10, 2012)

Goat minerals and worming is a great start.  I would still get a fecal if you can.  Some wormers are inefective against certain worms.  Get another one in two weeks to make sure your wormer is working.  

Keep a close eye on her, watch weight and intake.  Goats can go downhill fast.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 10, 2012)

YOu can give the Penn G as an injectable at the same time, We give it at the rate of  1cc per 20lbs. twice a day for the first couple of days, then one time a day.  Can keep giving it twice, I just run out of time. 5 to 7 days.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 10, 2012)

If you don't see a lot of improvement in the next 3 or 4 days, then I would consider giving her sulfa-dimethoxine for coccidiosis for 5 days in a row.


----------



## elevan (Feb 10, 2012)

There are very few absolutes in goat medicine.  The one thing that you should know is that you need to figure out what is right for your farm and do it.  Read all options.  Ask lots of questions.  And then make a decision based on your beliefs and principals.

Now, I'll apologize for muddying the waters and give you the dosages that we use here on Honaker Farm.

Penicillin - 1 ml/ 15#  IM injection 2x day for 7 days
Red Cell - 6 ml / 20-30# every 6-8 hours for 24 hours, then once per week until better

More information on some of what we keep in our medicine chest and the dosages can be found here:  http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=2607-goat-med-chest


----------



## elevan (Feb 10, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> If you don't see a lot of improvement in the next 3 or 4 days, then I would consider giving her sulfa-dimethoxine for coccidiosis for 5 days in a row.


Keep in mind that if you give Penicillin then you need to wait at least 48 hours after the stopping on the penicillin before giving sulfa-dimethoxine (Albon, Di-Methox or even Sulmet).


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 10, 2012)

elevan said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am not sure that is true,  You shouldn't use Penn with oxy-tetracyclene, because it makes the pennicillin useless, but I have never read that you can't give a sulfa-dimethoxine with Pennicilliin.  If you have some reading on this, please send it my way. In all honesty, I have done it many times, with a very good results and a good recovery.


----------



## elevan (Feb 10, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was told to me by my vet.  I'll see if I can get some documentation on it.


eta:  I just got off the phone with my vet.  The reason that they advise against using them at the same time (or any 2 antibiotics at the same time) is the risk of overkill of gut flora - especially in goats.  They said that generally using them both together will cause diarrhea and then you're dealing with dehydration on top of what you were already dealing with.  And given that goats can go downhill very quickly, it's easiest to be cautious and avoid side effects where possible.  So, I'll keep the practice of waiting 48 hours between...but each farm is different and each of us needs to make up our own minds about what works for us.


----------



## babyelle (Feb 10, 2012)

I am going to give the penicillin but wait for a bit before I give her the sulfa-dimethoxine. I am also planning on giving her the electrolytes and molasses. I checked her gums and eyelids and they had good color.  I have been noticing a strange neck stretching. I looked it up and I can't imagine it is polio which was referred to as "star gazing". She is still eating and active but she does look bad.  Any ideas what this strange neck stretching, looking around is?


----------



## Queen Mum (Feb 10, 2012)

Chronic neck stretching is often a sign that she is experiencing some minor muscle stiffness.  She may be just stretching.  She has not been feeling well and so she may have been inactive. Inactivity is going to lead to stiffness.  Also, if she is feeling unwell, she may have some toxins building in her muscles.  It would be important to keep her active.  This would reduce any chance of opportunistic infections.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 10, 2012)

babyelle said:
			
		

> I am going to give the penicillin but wait for a bit before I give her the sulfa-dimethoxine. I am also planning on giving her the electrolytes and molasses. I checked her gums and eyelids and they had good color.  I have been noticing a strange neck stretching. I looked it up and I can't imagine it is polio which was referred to as "star gazing". She is still eating and active but she does look bad.  Any ideas what this strange neck stretching, looking around is?


my guess is, she is just feeling like crap. sorry for the bluntness.   

I can cut open vitamin E gel caps and squirt them into her mouth, a couple a day. 

As long as she is eating, I would just keep her feeding consistent, But if she goes off feed, I would drench her with  molasses, corn syrup and corn oil,  1 part each, between 6 to 8 ounces or as much as you can get into her. pretty much need a 30 cc drenching syringe, cost around 10 bucks at the feed store.


----------



## babyelle (Feb 13, 2012)

Well, I think she is beginning to look a little better. Thank you all so much for responding to my request for help. We are giving her 4cc of penicillin 2x/ day, electrolytes in her water and we wormed her. Oh and I also gave her nutri drench twice. I missed the 3:00 deadline for the fecal p/u at the vet, should I still send a sample even though I wormed her on Friday?


----------



## elevan (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes, send a sample anyway.  If it comes back clean it could tell you that what you used is working.  If it comes back loaded then you know what you used is worthless and you'll need to use a different class of drug.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Feb 14, 2012)

When they are in need of gaining muscle back, it makes them acceptable to another worm bloom, so I would do the fecal, but I would also be prepared to worm her again in 2 or 3 weeks, since her system is still vulnerable.


----------

