# hay and goat pellets



## pets4me (Nov 1, 2009)

I was told that feeding goat pellets can cause urinary problems in wethers because the pellets contain grain and grain causes the problems...yet when I read the different post the goat pellets is used alot. I have two wethers and right now they have free choice hay which is a good horse hay ( mixed) and they get two cups of pellets twice a day between them. Is all the minerals and vitimans in the feed or do I need to supplement more minerals...right now they have a mineral block (cattle).Also is baking soda required? and how do you give it to them. Sorry for all the questions but I find this forum so knowledegable.


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## freemotion (Nov 1, 2009)

Most people here feed loose minerals and baking soda free choice.  I use a two-compartment mineral feeder that I got at TSC for this purpose.  This allows the goats to get what they need, when they need it.  Just be sure to check it daily and clean it out now and then, even if it still has stuff in it.  Goats are very picky about clean food and supplements, and it may look clean to you but is filthy to Their Royal Goatinesses. 

Here is a good thread on minerals:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1957


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## lilhill (Nov 2, 2009)

Loose minerals are easier for the goat to eat than from a block and you don't have to worry about them breaking their teeth in the process.  

I don't give them free choice baking soda.  It was the rage years ago, but too many goats have over done the baking soda looking for the salty taste - it gives them acidosis, and they die.


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## freemotion (Nov 2, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> I don't give them free choice baking soda.  It was the rage years ago, but too many goats have over done the baking soda looking for the salty taste - it gives them acidosis, and they die.


This is the first time I read this after a year of reading.....and my first instinct is to go clean out my baking soda!  Makes sense, but.....Need more info on this.....I also have block salt and loose salt, having noticed that mine prefer the block salt but will eat the loose salt when it is hot out (rare this year!).  They RARELY touch the bs.  More in the spring when things are growing.  

So....is bs more of a problem in goats in a dry lot?


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## lilhill (Nov 2, 2009)

A goat's system is alkaline whereas ours is acidic.  The goat goes looking for that salty taste, eats the baking soda which in turn can alter the goat's system.  I do keep baking soda on hand if needed, but never free choice.  As far as whether it's more problems in goats in dry lot, I don't know a definitive answer to that.  I would assume that if you aren't keeping the minerals out free choice and the goats are searching for that salt, then they'll head for the baking soda every time regardless of whether  they are kept in dry lots or not.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 2, 2009)

pets4me said:
			
		

> I was told that feeding goat pellets can cause urinary problems in wethers because the pellets contain grain and grain causes the problems...yet when I read the different post the goat pellets is used alot.


Urinary calculi can be the result of feeding too much grain, feeding inappropriate or off-label grain, not providing enough long fiber, unclean water sources...  

Personally, I wouldn't grain wethers if I didn't have to.  We have a wether in with our does, and I hate that he gets grain..  Some folks, though, feed grain to bucks, does, and wethers alike, and never have a problem.

My advice is that if you're going to feed grain to wethers, make sure it's mixed at least 2:1, Calciumhosphorus and it would be great if you could find one with added ammonium chloride.  Make sure their hay or grazing and browsing is the primary diet, though...not grain.  Also, make sure their water is always clean.  I'd feed them as little grain as possible, according to their condition.  I wouldn't go more than a couple of cups a day each, personally...if they aren't gaining on that or seem to be in poor condition, feed better hay instead of continually upping the grain ration.



			
				pets4me said:
			
		

> I have two wethers and right now they have free choice hay which is a good horse hay ( mixed) and they get two cups of pellets twice a day between them. Is all the minerals and vitimans in the feed or do I need to supplement more minerals...right now they have a mineral block (cattle).Also is baking soda required? and how do you give it to them. Sorry for all the questions but I find this forum so knowledegable.


Loose mineral is better.  There's a mineral thread going right now...might want to check it out.


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## kimmyh (Nov 2, 2009)

If you are feeding any hay other than alfalfa, please do not feed grain to your wethers/bucks. While some people may get away with it for years, I have seen the agonizing pain created by well meaning goat owners who chose the mixed hay route. Stones/UC are caused by the balance of calcium to phos being out of wack, and mixed hay/other hays are the best way to achieve the out of kilter state.

Feeding block salt, loose salt, and baking soda, is counter productive. First of all, goats are not cows or horses, and as such will not consume enough salt in their blocks to deliver the amount of needed minerals, and they may upon occasion, break teeth trying to bite off what they need from the blocks. Loose goat (not sheep) minerals work best, but they have to be kept fresh (that is the case here) or the goats will tend to turn up their noses at them. Baking soda, is too much of a risk to have out (although I used ride that band wagon) as it can trigger acidosis.


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## pets4me (Nov 2, 2009)

Sorry another silly question...but when people talk about "grain" are they talking the goat pellets you buy at the feed store or they talking actual grain-grain like corn, oats,wheat,barley etc.

So feeding a mixed hay type isn't good/enough?? should I be feeding them alfalfa pellets then. I can get this from the feed store and if so should I just mix it with their goat pellets and how much do they get. I'm heading out later today to pick up some loose minerals. 

I always thought everything they needed was in the pellets? 

again thanks for all your help...my too boys (goats) espically thanks you.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 2, 2009)

Grain can be _grain_ - corn, oats, etc, in a "textured" feed -- or it can be pelleted feed..  I'd go with the pelleted feed, as some animals are prone to pick what they like out of textured feed.  If what they like happens to be cracked corn and they eat more of that than anything else, it throws the Ca balance of the feed off..  Corn has a Ca ratio of about 1:4, and can _certainly_ lead to UC in bucks and wethers if they eat a lot of it.

As for whether mixed hay is OK for bucks and wethers...kimmy and I have disagreed on this before.  She recommends straight alfalfa, which is fine, I guess....if not a bit expensive..  There's some indication that too much calcium can lead to "nutritional arthritis," but I don't have any firsthand experience with that..

Personally, though, I think mixed hay is OK provided that there's enough calcium in it to offset the high phosphorus content of the grass.  Straight alfalfa is about 6-8:1, Ca which is far more calcium than is actually necessary to offset the phosphorus..  Grass hay is often 1:1 Ca or lower, but you still have to look at calcium and phosphorus by weight -- not just by the ratio..  Obviously, what you want is for your hay to have at least twice as many grams of calcium as it has phosphorus.  

Based on my reading, most 50/50 alfalfa-grass mix hays will end up being about 2.5-3:1 Ca, and about 16-18% protein..  As the alfalfa content decreases, the Ca ratio gets more dangerous and the protein level falls..  And naturally, as it increases, the ratio should improve and the protein levels come up..  

It seems like there was some extenuating circumstance that led to kimmy seeing cases of UC unless her wethers were on straight alfalfa hay..  If I'm not mistaken, she was creep feeding free choice grain to the wethers in question for maximum weight gains, and I think she may even have noted that the grain they were getting wasn't balanced 2:1, Ca..  As such, she needed to add lots of calcium to the diet, and straight alfalfa hay did that for her.

Now, unless your free-feeding unbalanced grain for maximum weight gain, I would personally be of the opinion that a nice alfalfa/grass mix hay with a decent amount of alfalfa in it -- 40%, at least -- should be fine..  If you add a little bit of appropriate goat grain a day, that _should_ be fine too -- so long as you don't overdo it.  Remember that they don't necessarily need grain!

And, clean water at all times.  That's very, very important.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 2, 2009)

Just to clarify....when you say "mixed hay," are you talking about straight grass mix, or alfalfa/grass mix.

I went back and re-read and...well, I think I sorta just assumed you were talking about alfalfa/grass mix.

If you're talking about straight grass mix, then I'd probably look for hay with some alfalfa in it first..  If that wasn't available, I'd look into alfalfa pellets..  

Understand, though, that you may have to feed more pellets than is practical to offset a straight grass hay and that there's a lot of feed-by-weight comparison to be done to figure out how much alfalfa pellet it would take, etc..

Again, my first choice would be to go with an alfalfa-mix hay if you can.


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