# What Correction for LGD Behavior?



## LoneOakGoats (Feb 5, 2014)

Yesterday when I got home from work, I saw that we had chickens out in the pen with the goats and Spike. Spike is pyr/Anatolian male 1 year old.  I went out to put the chickens back in their pen and Spike came up with a chicken in his mouth.  Chicken wasn't hurt but scared to death I'm sure.  Anyway, I was yelling at him to drop the chicken and he was completely ignoring me.  He did finally drop it, but almost immediately went for it again.  I'm still yelling and trying to grab him collar the entire time.  Anyway, what/how should I correct this behavior?  Not so much the chickens, but the fact that he was completely ignoring me.
Thanks!


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## Robbin (Feb 8, 2014)

No one has answered this post so I grabbed a response to a previous thread that I wrote concerning shock or E collars...

Collars have a great advantage over all other physical correction means. You can correct instantly, from any distance. So the behavior you want to stop is occurring when the correction is given, not 30 seconds later after you have caught up to them.
Another HUGE advantage is you don’t have to overpower an adult Anatolian to correct him. Mine is a brute and strong as a bull, I really don’t want to physically fight with him and I couldn’t catch him if my life depended on it.
One thing to watch out for, the dog must KNOW it is correction coming from you. If you yell NO, just before the correction, they figure it out really fast. But I've read that they can associate the shock with another animal or person and be dangerous. So the first time you mildly shock them, you don't want them to have their mouth on a goat. Start with very short, mild stimulation. Not even painful, but it gets their attention and work up if needed. You need to be sure the dog understands the correction. And a collar can't fix everything. Toli grew up chasing cats, they are his cats, he doesn't hurt them unless he steps on them. The cats loved it and teased Toli into chasing them and I allowed it without realizing how detrimental it would be in the long run. Now that he can catch them and he weighs 130lbs, they don’t like it anymore. So I’m training him not to chase them. So now he will stop when I say stop (no collar needed), but he chases them when I’m not there. So even the collar can’t fix behavior that is ingrained. It’s not magic, it sure won't correct my stupid mistakes.
I’ve shocked Toli 2 times, twice chasing deer, and I’ve used the vibrator function twice chasing cats and twice chasing deer. But Toli is use to correction by a collar because I have an ingound fence. So it takes very little to get his attention. He knows what the results are if he doesn’t react to the warning.
There is a place for an e collar training on an LGD, but treat it like you would hitting your dog. I love my dog and would risk my life for him. I don’t want him living in fear of me. But just like my kids, they know there is a point where things are going to start going badly for them, and they didn’t (usually) go there. :/
With LGDs there are things that MUST be stopped, and an e collar can make a difference.

UPDATE *  Since I wrote this, I have gained almost full voice recall.  Even in the face of chasing deer.  Other dogs are still a problem but it's because it so rarely happens, while the deer chasing will happen every week.  He also knows the additonal collar means he gets out of jail, so he runs over when he sees me with it so I can put it on him.


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## LoneOakGoats (Feb 8, 2014)

Thank you so much!


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## Southern by choice (Feb 8, 2014)

*Forcibly taking* the bird from him and out of his mouth would be you asserting the alpha position. Expecting him to drop the bird on command was fine but the second he didn't drop it grabbing hold of his muzzle and making him drop it or yanking it from him is an adequate display.

Grabbing his collar and "getting all up in his face" is very important... it is a display of you maintaining alpha position. At the point of grabbing his collar and getting in his face I would also be backing him up ... you are forcing him to move back and assert your dominance over him. Taking the bird or another that is really squawking is best and forcing it in his face while hollering at him that this is "MY" baby ( or whatever words you want to use)-  NO BAD DOG!  

I have a question.... was this a sudden thing? Also is this particular bird normally in that area where Spike was or was he a "foreigner"?

Sometimes younger dogs may not understand mating behaviors of chickens and get very upset when there is a  lot of noise when their is an overzealous roo and also often with the LGD's they are extremely possessive of what "bird" is in their area and a foreigner is perceived as "not acceptable" and is lunch.

LGD's on the job and e-collars sometimes work out. Robbin seems to have had success for what he is using the collar for. In my experience most people who had used the collar _for poultry issues_ did not have great success.


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## Timberdoodle (Feb 8, 2014)

Regarding the e-collar options, it's my understanding there are actually 2 schools of thought. One is as Robbin stated...you want the dog knowing the correction is coming from you and the other is the dog NOT knowing you are giving the correction. I have used e-collars on hunting dogs ALOT and have always employed them in the manner of the dog NOT knowing I was giving the correction. This was done as I wanted the dog to learn avoidance of a situation/object. In my hunting dogs I employed the NOT knowing technique in rattlesnake avoidance training. My reasoning was, I'm not always going to be present or nearby if my dog encounters a snake. So, I wanted the dog to avoid all snakes, good and bad without me being present. I utilized dead rattlesnakes placed in our walking paths by cooperators and the instant a dog saw/sensed the snake, I activated the e-collar. Rarely did it take more than 2-3 activations to convince even the most difficult dog that he/she wanted nothing whatsoever to do with snakes. The "proof" lasted a lifetime. Most recently I employed my e-collar on my Tornjak. He'd began eating wildlife droppings. Not overly bad IMO in and of itself, it just gets old when they come home and heave a few batches up on the family room rug/floor. I decided it was a developing habit we didn't need and wanted it stopped. Trying to stop a fast dog a hundred feet ahead of you from gobbling down poop is hard but, with the e-collar I broke him of it within 2 instances in a single afternoon. Again I didn't want him knowing I was giving the correction, I was shooting for him to avoid scat even in circumstance when I wasn't around. To accomplish this he couldn't know I had the controller and was activating it and had to come away associating the shock with the poop and not with me. Having said all this and as Robbin and Southern have said...TIMING IS EVERYTHING! You've got to know your dog's behaviors and absolutely know when to give the correction and it must be used ultra sparingly. So, to get to my point/consideration. Might it not be better to teach Spike chicken avoidance/...as opposed to correcting him after you happen to catch him (which is likely to be inconsistent on your part) with a chicken in mouth? The deed is already done if the dog has a chicken in mouth. I'd rather the dog avoid the chicken all together in the first place than trying to correct/convince him after the fact. Just some food for thought.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 8, 2014)

Although I agree with many of your points I can tell you that out of the 50 or so calls/ emails I received for poultry issues with LGD's last year alone, the e-collars rarely worked. These dogs are fully aware when the collar is on and when it is not. I have seen the same for LGD's that chase their livestock... at best minimal effect in correcting the behavior. 

E-collars are very effective training tools but having said that in 35 years I personally have not needed to use one. I see them used mostly and effectively in hunting dogs, rarely in LGD's. I personally rely on the human/dog bond relationship.

Avoidance is good but it also can lead to allowing hawks and owls to come in and take poultry. There are 3 stages of poultry issues that most LGD's go through. Usually birth through 5/6 months nothing... then comes first stage of poultry issues at 5-7 months... from there 2 other stages follow. Some LGD's are definitely more suited to poultry than others. The Anatolians IMO are the MOST difficult in regards to training them to poultry.


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## Timberdoodle (Feb 8, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> snip
> 
> Avoidance is good but it also can lead to allowing hawks and owls to come in and take poultry. There are 3 stages of poultry issues that most LGD's go through. Usually birth through 5/6 months nothing... then comes first stage of poultry issues at 5-7 months... from there 2 other stages follow. Some LGD's are definitely more suited to poultry than others. The Anatolians IMO are the MOST difficult in regards to training them to poultry.



Interesting concept. How prevalent is it in LGDs to defend against hawks and owls? I'm used to seeing/interacting with LGDs and large flocks of open range sheep and/or open range cattle. Agreed, hardly to be considered a Back Yard Herd.....consequently my knowledge of poultry interactions is minimal. On the large scale of open range the Pyrs and other LGDs utilized are largely focused on coyotes and more recently, the Mexican Grey Wolves (established in E AZ and NM and being allowed to move into central AZ). More on poultry protection instincts please!   No intents on hijacking LoneOaks thread, can move to a new thread if need be.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Feb 8, 2014)

My two LGD's chased away cranes that landed in our yard, but they ignore the crows. Go figure.


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## LoneOakGoats (Feb 9, 2014)

The chickens are kept in their own yard that shares a fence with the goats and dog.  He has shown some interest in the chickens before.  He would at times, lung at the fence a time or two then stop and completely ignore the chickens.  Spike dug under into their yard.  He was carrying around one of my little Serama hens.  He didn't hurt her at all, but who knows about the next time. No new chickens at all, same ones we've always had. All the time I've been out there with them, he hasn't shown any interest at all. I'm wondering if he gets bored and that's when the chickens look fun to him.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 9, 2014)

Ahhhh, I see. Putting hot-wire at the bottom will discourage the digging under. Yes, poultry is tempting for most 1yr old LGD's.  

Yes, boredom could be playing a role here. I don't like the fact he dug under to get to them though. It would not be unusual for a LGD to go after a chicken that came into his territory especially if they haven't been raised (as in a free-ranged environment) with the poultry. Sounds like just what your saying... he looks at this as "playtime".

Hotwire would be good.


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## LoneOakGoats (Feb 9, 2014)

It will go up today.  Thanks everyone!


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## moffitthill (Feb 9, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Although I agree with many of your points I can tell you that out of the 50 or so calls/ emails I received for poultry issues with LGD's last year alone, the e-collars rarely worked. These dogs are fully aware when the collar is on and when it is not. I have seen the same for LGD's that chase their livestock... at best minimal effect in correcting the behavior.
> 
> E-collars are very effective training tools but having said that in 35 years I personally have not needed to use one. I see them used mostly and effectively in hunting dogs, rarely in LGD's. I personally rely on the human/dog bond relationship.
> 
> Avoidance is good but it also can lead to allowing hawks and owls to come in and take poultry. There are 3 stages of poultry issues that most LGD's go through. Usually birth through 5/6 months nothing... then comes first stage of poultry issues at 5-7 months... from there 2 other stages follow. Some LGD's are definitely more suited to poultry than others. The Anatolians IMO are the MOST difficult in regards to training them to poultry.



As I said... not tech savvy...meant to like and popped up this box...trying to like ... fat fingers


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## moffitthill (Feb 9, 2014)

I am a firm believer that static is not a substitute for training but any dog after proper personalized training and investment of time and consistency is not "getting it" AND (not or) is or becomes a safety issue. Yep...time to consider static. Training is what I do... I work with dogs family pets, rescues, dogs that have been field trained and herd trained and agility trained by other trainers for whatever...etc etc. I work with hard cases. Priorities are 5 Fundamentals including Functionality... who cares if your dog can sit for 10 minutes in the other room with even distractions if it doesn't focus and function safely and can be enjoyed. I work with assuring pack hierarchy based on respect... not fear. If static is your "final opportunity" for resolution after all other measures... Please do not point your remote at the pet like you are trying to change a TV channel. Please no that this is not a matter of right or wrong school of thought. Sometimes best to agree to disagree ... smart posts... but Robbin... on the dog knowing static correction comes from owner... I typically disagree. Most dogs should not know. Unless you evaluate behavior, temperament, etc in typical familiar environment (and OK evaluator there by family/owner - safe and good to go), evaluate again outside that environment (unfamiliar place with ok evaluator) and again evaluate in unfamiliar place and introduce unfamiliar person... it is difficult to discern best way to utilize static. What does the dog know? What does it listen/do consistently, what does it "maybe" and what do you struggle with? If you introduce static when not solution for dog (can cause confusion, meltdown, anxieties, a defensive aggression, etc) or used incorrectly (can cause again confusion, not be effective for correction of cause, etc)... So, bottom line, you can cause bigger issues -- bigger than ones than caused by improper approach of training for a particular dog. Sometimes reverse psychology is very effective too. Most busy herders -- are different than the more guardian type personality. They love to work and be busy... just being outside in a spacious run does not always meet activity or working needs. So many things to consider. I don't have a solution as I feel it would be remiss to do so without more info... except to say that MOST should not know in my experience (over 99% in my 40 years of training -- though most have not needed static at all so that % is of ones that did over the years)... you can't be there all the time and most dogs need to learn the job, boundaries and basic momentary decision making...but again depends on dog and what does or does not motivate learning/working. Remember too that eval determines the learning capabilities... just because many working or herding breed are a "smart" breed... some individuals are not always the brightest bulbs.


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## Robbin (Feb 11, 2014)

In my case, inability to insure recall is what led me to use a E collar.  My dog would chase deer OFF my property and would come in contact with two roads.  I had to stop him while still on my property (80 acres).  In my case, I was using the E collar to inforce a voice command. .  For me, it's a safety issue and I wanted him to realize that the command would be followed by static correction if he ignored the command.  I have an inground static fence, so static correction that he didn't know came from me, would be misinterpetted as hitting a fence where there wasn't one before.  I made that mistake the first time and the dog avoided the area for weeks after during our walks.  Since then I've made sure he gets a forceful command, followed by a page, the followed by a correction. It worked. Two actual shocks and two pager vibrates and I've only had to use it once since then because of a stray dog near our property line that he was bound and determined to chase into the next county.

Now if I could just get him to think that the deer are livestock and need to be protected....


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## big mami (Feb 22, 2014)

Not to hijack this thread, but I have a similar issue.  We recently adopted a 1 year 2 month old Maremma who had been fenced outside (surrounding) ducks on her previous farm.  We have her with an older LGD with two goats, and their orchard shares a fence with the chicken yard.  Our older LGD ignores the chickens when we let them into the orchard, but when my husband tried to introduce them to the young one, she wound up killing and partially eating one (when he had gone up to the house).  He reprimanded her quite loudly and firmly with dead chicken in hand, and she sunk down and looked really guilty and sorry.

My question is, what to do now?  I really want the chickens to be able to come into the orchard.  My thought was to put her on a leash and hang out with her while the chickens visit for a few times.  Very time consuming, but perhaps it would work?  Is she trainable?  Southern By Choice, what do you think?


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## babsbag (Feb 22, 2014)

I used an e collar on my LGDs for poultry and it worked well. I did not let them know that I was the one controlling the pain. I didn't give them a warning, if they looked at a chicken in "that way" they got the highest shock the collar could give. It did take time, and I do think that they knew when the collar was on and when it wasn't, just bringing out the collar would change their behavior, didn't have to even use it.  Part of my success may have simply been them growing out of that stage.

My BCs have also been trained with a shock collar for rattlesnake avoidance. The trainer did not let them know he had the remote. They learned quickly and probably something I need to have done again; it has been a lot of years.


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