# Need help with legal question about a purchased goat... UPDATE...



## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 7, 2012)

*Back in March I found an ad on Craigslist for milking goats for sale. I called the people and went out to look at them. I fell in love with one and went back and bought her three days later. The guy said his daughter had the pedigree and that he would get it to me as soon as he got it from her. I asked him a couple times in emails if he had got it from her and he said "not yet". A couple weeks went by and asked him again, still no, so I asked him to mail or fax me a bill of sale for her, signed, as the ADGA said they could transfer her into my name with a signature from him. He said sure he will send it. Well it's been another month and 2 emails later and I have not heard back from him. So I'm assuming by this point he is not going to send it? 

I was super new to goats and had no idea what I was doing.  I will never buy another goat without pedigree in hand. 

I have her ADGA number and pedigree printed offline. 

I've had her for three months now, so how do I go about putting her in my name? *


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jun 7, 2012)

Never buy a goat without a receipt and have it all in writing, that he/she will give you the papers. I was screwed by a Nigerian owner once. Never will it happen again!!


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jun 7, 2012)

About getting her in your name, idk. I guess you could call the registry. They might be able to help. GL to you!!


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## hcppam (Jun 7, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> About getting her in your name, idk. I guess you could call the registry. They might be able to help. GL to you!!


yes I think they'll work with you.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jun 7, 2012)

I think it's the best bet.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 7, 2012)

*Can you guy please tell me what "the registry" is? (sorry for my ignorance)...

I have been emailing someone who works at ADGA, is that the same thing?*


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## SmallFarmGirl (Jun 7, 2012)

I kinda have the same problem. I paid quite alot for goats with papers! 6 months later, I'm still asking for the papers. I really don't know...


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 7, 2012)

SmallFarmGirl said:
			
		

> I kinda have the same problem. I paid quite alot for goats with papers! 6 months later, I'm still asking for the papers. I really don't know...


*
OIY!!! Well at least I'm not alone! Please let me know when you get it figured out and I'll do the same. 


I'm going to email that lady I've been talking to and see what she says... *


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## lilhill (Jun 8, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch, every goat has a "pedigree" of some sort, so what you are asking for is Registration certificates or signed applications/bills of sale to get the goats transferred into your name.  The person you purchased the goats from may not have the papers and that is why he isn't giving you any.  In other words, the goats may not even be registered stock.  In this case, it may just be a buyer beware situation and you may never get papers.  Any time you purchase animals that are advertised as registered, before you take possession of the goats, make sure you have those papers in your hand when you leave with them.  CraigsList can be notorious for selling things that are not what the seller claims they are.  

Sorry you are going through this, and hopefully you can get it worked out.  I don't think ADGA (one of the registries for dairy goats) can do much to help.  You could have an attorney write a letter to the person who sold the goats to you as registered stock that you demand the papers and if they are not received within "x" number of days, you will take him to small claims court.  Did you get a receipt for your payment or anything from the person in writing selling the goats to you?


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## Pearce Pastures (Jun 8, 2012)

I may be in error here but if the seller is a member of the association for which he was offering papers on the goat, I would think you could report him to the association and they might be able to put some pressure on him as well.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Jun 8, 2012)

Unfortunately, I think you are in a pickle of a situation and you can not get out of it.  

When I bought my Nubian Doe, the buyer said that her grand parents were registered, but that her parents although pure bred, were not registered.  I paid accordingly for her.  Definiately call the ADGA, they were most helpful with me and understanding how it all works.  But it sounds like this goat may not really be registered and you were scammed.  Does the goat have any tattoos?  I am new to this myself. But technically, doesn't she need to be tattood and that tattoo associated with the ADGA registeration number?  if you have the animal with the tattoo and that is linked to a valid registration ID, i think you have more ground to work with.

Definiately call and speak with the ADGA.

Sorry, you are going through this.  Sounds like you really love the goat though. 

For me, I bred my Nubian to a registered buck and her kids are now registered 50%.  I am ok with that.  She is a great goat, produces a lot of really good milk and gave me two beautiful doelings.  Can not complain.


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## sawfish99 (Jun 8, 2012)

Yes, the ADGA is the registry in question for you (there are others) based on your finding an ADGA number for her.  How did you find the number?  Was it based on the name he provided for the goat?

However, if you don't have a bill of sale, and you don't have signed transfer paperwork from the owner, I doubt the ADGA will transfer her registration to you.  Call and ask.


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## sawfish99 (Jun 8, 2012)

FYI - the way I handle situations like "I've got the paperwork and will send it to you" is "I'll pay you x amount now and when I get the paperwork I'll send you the remainder".  Then I am comfortable with the price if I never get the paperwork.  If the paperwork is absolutely critical, the don't pay anything until the paperwork is correct.


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## Catahoula (Jun 8, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Back in March I found an ad on Craigslist for milking goats for sale. I called the people and went out to look at them. I fell in love with one and went back and bought her three days later. The guy said his daughter had the pedigree and that he would get it to me as soon as he got it from her. I asked him a couple times in emails if he had got it from her and he said "not yet". A couple weeks went by and asked him again, still no, so I asked him to mail or fax me a bill of sale for her, signed, as the ADGA said they could transfer her into my name with a signature from him. He said sure he will send it. Well it's been another month and 2 emails later and I have not heard back from him. So I'm assuming by this point he is not going to send it?
> 
> I was super new to goats and had no idea what I was doing.  I will never buy another goat without pedigree in hand.
> 
> ...


I wonder if he is the registered owner or his daughter is?  Doe the ADGA pedigree printout state the seller's name as the owner of your goat? If ADGA said they could transfer her to you only with his signature (or whoever is the legal owner), heck with them again explain the situation that the seller ignored you and see if what you can do.  You may have to take him to court or like another member said, have a lawyer draw up a letter stating is he doesn't comply within such an such dates that you'd be force to take him to court. 
Good Luck!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 8, 2012)

lilhill said:
			
		

> WhiteMountainsRanch, every goat has a "pedigree" of some sort, so what you are asking for is Registration certificates or signed applications/bills of sale to get the goats transferred into your name.  The person you purchased the goats from may not have the papers and that is why he isn't giving you any.  In other words, the goats may not even be registered stock.  In this case, it may just be a buyer beware situation and you may never get papers.  Any time you purchase animals that are advertised as registered, before you take possession of the goats, make sure you have those papers in your hand when you leave with them.  CraigsList can be notorious for selling things that are not what the seller claims they are.
> 
> Sorry you are going through this, and hopefully you can get it worked out.  I don't think ADGA (one of the registries for dairy goats) can do much to help.  You could have an attorney write a letter to the person who sold the goats to you as registered stock that you demand the papers and if they are not received within "x" number of days, you will take him to small claims court.  Did you get a receipt for your payment or anything from the person in writing selling the goats to you?


*
She is tattooed and registered. I have another "goat friend" who knows the original breeder and helped me track down her pedigree, that's what I have printed off AGDA. 

I do not have a receipt or anything else, EXCEPT I do have ALL the emails going between me and him even up to the day I said I was coming to pick her up and ALL of his responses to everything.*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 8, 2012)

ThreeBoysChicks said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I think you are in a pickle of a situation and you can not get out of it.
> 
> When I bought my Nubian Doe, the buyer said that her grand parents were registered, but that her parents although pure bred, were not registered.  I paid accordingly for her.  Definiately call the ADGA, they were most helpful with me and understanding how it all works.  But it sounds like this goat may not really be registered and you were scammed.  Does the goat have any tattoos?  I am new to this myself. But technically, doesn't she need to be tattood and that tattoo associated with the ADGA registeration number?  if you have the animal with the tattoo and that is linked to a valid registration ID, i think you have more ground to work with.
> 
> ...


*
Yes she is tattooed and registered. My friend knows the original breeder.

I just need to figure out how to put her in my name.*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 8, 2012)

Catahoula said:
			
		

> I wonder if he is the registered owner or his daughter is?  Doe the ADGA pedigree printout state the seller's name as the owner of your goat? If ADGA said they could transfer her to you only with his signature (or whoever is the legal owner), heck with them again explain the situation that the seller ignored you and see if what you can do.  You may have to take him to court or like another member said, have a lawyer draw up a letter stating is he doesn't comply within such an such dates that you'd be force to take him to court.
> Good Luck!


*


Hmm, good question, I guess I never thought of that! It was his farm though, not the daughters, she didn't even live there, but I guess that doesn't mean much.

The ADGA paper I have does NOT list the owners name, it's just the pedigree printed out from the ADGA pedigree search.

This is it: http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001483716

I have emailed the very helpful lady at ADGA that was helping me before all this happened, hopefully she will know what to do.*


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jun 8, 2012)

There are lots of good answers and I agree the only thing you can do is talk to the registry. I don't think it will turnout very well, but we're all hoping it does!! I also strongly suggest that you get to know the higher-up in the registries you use and get to know the system. Know all about the registry and how it works and all the forms. Knowing all that really helps you know what you need to look for and how it all works. That's what I do and it has only helped!! GL again!!


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## daisyjack (Jun 8, 2012)

I am new to ADGA too so i might be wrong but this is what I would do. I would call ADGA up and try and find out who the owner is  that the goat is registered under  then I would also have ADGA send you a registration/transfer form. I would bring that form to the owner and have him sign it. if you give him everything he needs to transfer her to you and you mail it out your self then he will have no excuse to delay you from getting you doe transferred over to your name.


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## poorboys (Jun 10, 2012)

Last year, same problem except she signed the papers, but when I went to register them, she did not belong as a member to adga, and she put down the wrong numbers on the goats ID tags, and without everything being correct they can-not help me, I bought 4 does who should have been fully registerable. but only one was, the parents were not even her goats. and since she no longer was a member of adga they could'nt do anything about it, Bad- people make the rest of us suffer. Sorry but I doubt you see any good results. I called her for a long time, but finally gave it up.


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## hcppam (Jun 11, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> Catahoula said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes I was thinking the same thing  his daughters name,if  that wasn't a story, if you paid by check that might help you with ADGA.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 12, 2012)

*Of course I paid cash, he wouldn't accept any other form of payment. :/*


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## hcppam (Jun 12, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Of course I paid cash, he wouldn't accept any other form of payment. :/*


Sorry.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 12, 2012)

*What would I do in the event that the goat actually is his Daughters and not his?*


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## Mossy Stone Farm (Jun 12, 2012)

I really think you may just have to let this go and chalk it up to a learning exp... I don't think the ADGA is going to do anything, not really much they can do..

I am sorry it happend.....


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## redtailgal (Jun 12, 2012)

Honestly, at this point, I would have to play a bluff on him.  I'd call and ask one more time for the papers.  Then I'd sent a certified letter letting him know that he had 30 to produce the paperwork or you'd be forced to take legal action.

Of course, taking legal action is not really gonna happen, but he doesnt know that.


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## sunny (Jun 19, 2012)

The first thing I would do is contact my freind that knows the breeder and see whether the paperwork has ever been transfered to new owners. Perhaps the reason they are being this way is because they never transfered the paperwork themselves. If so, the original breeder can fill out a transfer to you. I believe that the breeder also has some pull toward getting a transfer done even if the papers have been taken out of their name. They might be able to help anyway.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 15, 2012)

*Ok, I'm sending him a CERTIFIED letter tomorrow with a self addressed and stamped envelope for return:*




> Dear Sir,
> On Thursday March 22nd, 2012 I, Cari Johnson, purchased a Nubian goat (KIDSVILLE CS LADY BUG - N001483716) from you. At the time of purchase you stated your daughter had the pedigree and you would be able to get it to me when you next were able to contact her. It has been four months and I have sent several emails and still no response as to the acquisition of the pedigree.
> I have contacted the American Dairy Goat Association and they state that I can transfer her to my name with a simple Bill of Sale, with a signature from you, stating the pedigree has been lost.
> I have included the Bill of Sale for Lady Bug for which I am requesting your signature. I have also included a self stamped envelope for your convenience in mailing it back to me. It will be very much appreciated if you send me the signed Bill of Sale regarding the Nubian Doe Lady Bug.
> Im sorry it has to come to this but if I do not receive the signed Bill of Sale within 30 days I will be forced to take legal action.


*I also included the Bill of Sale for which I am requesting the signature;*



> Bill of Sale:
> 
> I ___________________________ have sold one Purebred Nubian Doe ((KIDSVILLE CS LADY BUG - N001483716) to Cari Johnson on March 22, 2012 for the amount of $300 paid in cash. This goat has a missing pedigree. Please transfer to the new owner Cari Johnson.


Hopefully he will return the bill of sale and hopefully the ADGA will accept it and transfer her into my name. 
*
 I'll keep ya'll updated. 

*


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Jul 15, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Ok, I sent him a letter today with a self addressed and stamped envelope for return:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good letter and PLEASE keep us updated. I hope this joker gets it together!!


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## Roll farms (Jul 15, 2012)

Call the ADGA, they may insist you use one of their "Bill of Sale" forms....

I know it doesn't seeeem like it would matter, but I've never dealt w/ a pickier organization in my life.  I like that they make sure things are done correctly, but sometimes it's like jumping through hoops.

Sure hope he sends it back.  Good luck.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 15, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Call the ADGA, they may insist you use one of their "Bill of Sale" forms....
> 
> I know it doesn't seeeem like it would matter, but I've never dealt w/ a pickier organization in my life.  I like that they make sure things are done correctly, but sometimes it's like jumping through hoops.
> 
> Sure hope he sends it back.  Good luck.


*

I have been chatting with a lady there, (actually spoken with three different ladies) and they just said to get his signature, she didn't say anything about a Bill of Sale form specially from them...  I'll look into it.*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 15, 2012)

*Ok I went right to the ADGA website and typed in Bill of Sale, this is the first Q&A that pops up:
*


> If I purchased an unregistered animal and number 12 is not filled out how can I get it transferred?
> You can include a bill of sale, with the date of sale and the sellers signature.




*I'll just print it off ADGA and include it in the letter anyway. *


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 16, 2012)

Rolls is right about having to use their bill of sale sheet in order for it to be valid.  They can be funny about that stuff and I think sometimes they have been working in the biz for so long, they kind of forget and assume everyone knows and gets their procedure-they are really nice people though, don't get me wrong.  Hope it goes well and please let us know


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## Goatherd (Jul 16, 2012)

I wish you well in your endeavor to get your papers.  Keep in mind, there is no law or obligation for a person to accept or pick up a certified letter.  If they don't it will be returned to you.  The person also has the right to ask who sent the letter before accepting it.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 16, 2012)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> I wish you well in your endeavor to get your papers.  Keep in mind, there is no law or obligation for a person to accept or pick up a certified letter.  If they don't it will be returned to you.  The person also has the right to ask who sent the letter before accepting it.


*Yes very true, but you never know until you try! If he refuses it and sends it back at least then I'll know! *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 17, 2012)

*Lady at the post office said they will deliver it and get a signature right to his door, there are three possibilities:

1. He's home and accepts the letter and signs for it.

2. He's home and refuses the letter, in which case they will send it right back ~ will have it back within a week.

3. He's not home and then they will take it back to the post office and send him notices telling him to pick it up, in which case he will either go get it or not, in which case it could take me a month to get it back.

I'll check the tracking number tomorrow to see what it says. 

Hoping he just accepts it and signs the paper and sends it back to me. *


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 17, 2012)

I am anxious for you.  So hoping he will sign and send you back papers and you can get some satisfaction after all of this.


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## autumnprairie (Jul 17, 2012)

Good Luck


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 17, 2012)

*Thanks guys. Me too. I'll post tomorrow what happens. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 18, 2012)

*Darn he wasn't home! *


> Notice Left
> July 18, 2012, 3:22 pm


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 18, 2012)

So how does that work again?  Do the attempt delivery again or leave notices for him?


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 18, 2012)

*The lady at the counter said they would keep it at the post office and keep sending notices until he comes and gets it, or at 30 days they would send it back.*


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