# Wow, Anyone Have Advice?



## KaleighMaeA (Sep 22, 2011)

Well, recently I have found myself in a bit of a conundrum. I have been wanting to breed my male and female sarp in the next year or so (i've posted about this previously). Anyway, to get ready for that I sent in my males UKC paperwork and it got approved. Well I took my female to the vet again to get her all checked out. The vet told me he did not think she had great pyr in her. I tracked down the man I bought her from in Eastern Kentucky. What I found out was pretty interesting. When he sold her to me he told me her had dad was 1/2 and 1/2 making her 1/4th great pyr. Come to find out he said the reason he told me that was because her dad was a lot lighter colored than any other sarp he'd seen. Her dad was apparently passed between three owners and he doesn't have his real lineage. Well sarplaninacs do come in white, so the fact that he was lighter does not mean he had great pyr in him. I know DNA testing isn't recognized by UCK and CKC as a way to 100% prove your dog is full bred, and I have not found a DNA test that will test for Sarplaninac. After all the information I've gotten I am almost 100% sure she is actually full sarp, and the CKC after reviewing her photos has agreed and is going to register her. 

I realize most people would say OK you're good then what's the problem? I just really DO NOT want to misrepresent the breed I have in any way. Can anyone think of any other way I can make sure this is fact instead of just being 98% sure?

Thank you for any advice you may have.


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## redtailgal (Sep 22, 2011)

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## carolinagirl (Sep 22, 2011)

I agree with Redtail.  Forget CKC.  Most reputable breeders recognize them for what they are.....a way to make unsuspecting people think they are getting something more valuable.  I think they were invented mostly for puppy mill folks because customers seem to place a high value on that piece of paper.   If i was buying a puppy of any breed, I place as much stock in CKC registration as I would NO registration.  If you are selling these dogs as LGD pups, people don't care so much about papers anyway.  Even if she is 1/4 pyr, her offspring will only be 1/8 pyr.  And since pyr IS a LGD breed, who cares?  Advertise the pups as 7/8  Sarplaninac and tell folks who call that there is a good chance that they are pure bred but that you don't have proof of that.  That should be good enough for anyone!


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## Roll farms (Sep 22, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> I agree with Redtail.  Forget CKC.  Most reputable breeders recognize them for what they are.....a way to make unsuspecting people think they are getting something more valuable.  I think they were invented mostly for puppy mill folks because customers seem to place a high value on that piece of paper.   If i was buying a puppy of any breed, I place as much stock in CKC registration as I would NO registration.  If you are selling these dogs as LGD pups, people don't care so much about papers anyway.  Even if she is 1/4 pyr, her offspring will only be 1/8 pyr.  And since pyr IS a LGD breed, who cares?  Advertise the pups as 7/8  Sarplaninac and tell folks who call that there is a good chance that they are pure bred but that you don't have proof of that.  That should be good enough for anyone!


x2 on what she said, and x3 on CKC.  I have a poodle w/ CKC papers.  I burned them and got him fixed.  Same as no papers to me.  Anytime I see "CKC registered" I think "Why bother?"

I don't believe your dogs are 'working' farm dogs, though I could be wrong...Just haven't seen you post about them guarding anything but humans.  

I don't have any plans to breed our Pyr female again.  One out of 11 pups ended up killing a goat kid (owner's fault, not the dog's fault, they were warned to never leave pups alone w/ kids...) and went to the pound, even though I asked that any 'problem' pups be returned for rehab.
One got hit by a car and is now a 3-legged house dog.
1 has disappeared.

Giant dogs are the hardest to rehome.  60% of large / giant breeds bought as 'pets' end up being rehomed / dumped at rescues.  

I had hoped that if I found only working homes for them, as opposed to pet homes, that all of mine would end up working (job security = good chance at a healthy, happy life)....not so.  I'm not gonna contribute any more to the overflowing rescues.


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## kstaven (Sep 23, 2011)

Please refer to this sticky. http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13715


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## KaleighMaeA (Sep 23, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> *A dog cannot be declared fullbred by just looking at them*, and given the history of the dog in question, I would be very very cautious about representing that dog as a full bred dog.
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> As for CKC, are you refering to Continental Kennel Club?  If you are, be very careful in dealing with them.  They will register anything, despite what their paperwork says.  I used to raise Doberman, and on more than one occasion, someone would bring their CKC bitch to be bred to my stud.  One of them actually had LONG HAIR. It was marked like a dobe, but with the hair of a Newfoundland. NOT a purebred dobe.  After seeing several CKC dogs, both male and female, I ended up refusing to breed to anything CKC.  I also have a friend who has a dalmation/lab cross.  She was there, saw the breeding, delivered the puppies, and choose to keep this pup.  He is a registered lab according to CKC, he looks more dalmation than lab. I know of other dogs that are mixbred, but are registered CKC because they LOOK purebred.  I know for a fact that one of them (a lab) has a pitbull for a grandfather. Be cautious when dealing with them.
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Thank you for the great advice. I am refering to CoKC, I was not thinking when I did not specify that before. I do not have a farm, my grandfather does and my dogs go up  every weekend while we are up there. (About an hour and a half away). Truely the only main reason I want to breed them is because of how rare the breed is, and my dogs are like children to me I would love to see the puppies they would produce. Additionally, prior to these dogs all of my dogs have been rescues. I was kind of against breeding before simply because of the number of dogs in shelters. However, it's kind of my personal belief the type of people who want this dog are usually truely interested in this specific breed and I haven't found a single one available for adoption in the US so I don't feel like I'm taking away another dogs chance if you follow that odd logic? I think my best bet is to really get my detective hat on and see if I can't get in touch with the second owner of my female's parents (the third owner is the man I got my female puppy from) and see if he has any more specific information and if not maybe I can track down the first owner. Even if I get CoKC papers in I don't want to advertise her as purebred until I can verify that through her parent's prior owners. 

 Hopefully I can get all that information this weekend!


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## KaleighMaeA (Sep 23, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> carolinagirl said:
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I am a 23 year old female, so you're correct I do not own a farm. My grandfather does and my step dad as well. They are out at my grandpa's farm almost every weekend and my step dad's about once a month. I joined this forum mainly for the information I could learn, and to get some oppinions from people who know a lot more than me. 

I don't feel like I am going to contribute to overflowing rescues because most people who would be interested in my dogs are interested because of what breed they are. If they just wanted an LGD and had no personal reasons for wanting this breed above others I don't really see why they would want one of my puppies since other breeds are much more readily available. Also, I am big on adopting dogs, and I have not found a single Sarplaninac for adoption in the united states. Therefore I don't feel like I am contributing to a problem with the breed. I would want the people who adopted my puppies to return them if they had any problems. 

I didn't realize posting this would cause hostilities, I apologize.


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## KaleighMaeA (Sep 23, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Please refer to this sticky. http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=13715


CoKC, sorry missed that sticky! My fault!


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## kstaven (Sep 23, 2011)

No problem.


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## bluemini (Sep 23, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> carolinagirl said:
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I would have to agree there,I seen 2 great pry. at the shelter not long ago,around here people breed them and sell them for pets then when they get tired of them they dump them at the pound .... thats just here .


And there is no way to tell unless you DNA test or have papers,but im not familar with the breed so I could be wrong but thats how it was with my pitbull .


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## Roll farms (Sep 24, 2011)

KMA, I meant you no hostility, sorry if you took it that way.    I'm just a bit (too) passionate about breeding / pet overpopulation / etc.

I was pointing out to RTG / CG that these wouldn't be working LGD pups, in the sense that they are bonded to livestock from birth.  That wasn't a slight toward you, just a clarification.

And pointing out to you in case you hadn't thought of it, that no matter how hard we try, even buyers w/ the best intentions (of any breed) can have life changes where dogs get sold / rehomed / lost in the shuffle.  I'd imagine there are a few Sarps in rescues, but since they're rare, the shelters have no idea what they have...

Our pup that went to the pound was listed as a "Pyr / Wolf cross"   I saw his pic on the shelter's site, went to see if he was who I thought he was (he was), and found him a new pet home.


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## watchdogps (Sep 26, 2011)

KaleighMaeA said:
			
		

> Truely the only main reason I want to breed them is because of how rare the breed is, and my dogs are like children to me I would love to see the puppies they would produce.  Hopefully I can get all that information this weekend!


There are some other Sar owners and breeders in the US. Try getting on the LGD-L email list and asking. 
I agree with the above, CoKC papers are garbage. My friend registered her cat as a standard poodle. I'm not kidding, they don't require pics or proof. In fact, CoKC is a big red flag to me that the "breeders" are substandard (sorry, I dont mean to insult you, I knw this is your first time). 

If you want to breed them because the breed is rare, dont risk polluting the few purebreds we have by breeding a possible mix. Spay her and get a 100% certain purebred. 

Wanting to see what they produce is a nice thought, but do you have 8-10 buyers lined up and ready to hand you deposits? Do you hav the ability to keep 8 puppies if they don't sell? Sars are rare, so rare no one goes looking for one because they have never heard of them. 
I breed Anatolians, and I will tell you that LGDs arent selling like hotcakes right now. I know breeders who have been trying to sell pups for half what they usualyl sell for and no bites. Lots of farms have closed down and the demand isnt what it was, as well as no one has $$ to shell out. 
In addition, when you start looking for homes, you will reject about half the callers (at least), half of the ones you dont reject wont call back, and of the few left, half of those might get a pup.


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## foxywench (Sep 26, 2011)

also adding to that...
remember your going to want to be puting quite a chunk of change into health testing any dog your planning on breeding, at the very least OFA testing...so its not something i would go about lightly, "rare breed" or not.

as a side note, the dna tests can be a joke, ive seen results come back on PUREBRED known linagae dogs with all kidns of crazy things, and results on mixed breeds commng back just as crazy...no serious sarpie fanatic (and lets face it folks who know what sarpies are are few and far between as it is...) is going to trust Continental papers and a "dna" test...
given the breed id want to see more than "wonderfull pets" as the parents description.

im not anti potential mixed breed...
i am however anti breeding for the sake of it...if your going to breed you should have a clear goal in mind as to wha tyour trying to produce...
if you want to produce excelent house pets, then CGC testing, mabe even trying to get TDI's on the parents along with health certs
trying to market them as wonderful family protectors...id want to see at least some kind of personal protection training on them
trying to sell them as livestock dogs id want them to come from dogs who do work full time as livestock guardians...

so figure out WHAT your breeding for and prove those parents worthy beyond "there great pets"

hope that makes sense.


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## watchdogps (Sep 26, 2011)

foxywench said:
			
		

> also adding to that...
> remember your going to want to be puting quite a chunk of change into health testing any dog your planning on breeding, at the very least OFA testing...so its not something i would go about lightly, "rare breed" or not.
> 
> as a side note, the dna tests can be a joke, ive seen results come back on PUREBRED known linagae dogs with all kidns of crazy things, and results on mixed breeds commng back just as crazy...no serious sarpie fanatic (and lets face it folks who know what sarpies are are few and far between as it is...) is going to trust Continental papers and a "dna" test...
> ...


Yep, I haven't bred my oldest girl yet because I havent had $350 to drop on her OFAs. I KNOW her lineage, I bred her myself and have no doubt at all that she is anything but a good or excellent, but I wont do it without. Gotta get that done, she is 4 yrs old and I so want her puppies!
Do NOT fool yourself into thinking b/c sars are a rare breed that they dont have health probs. Most breeders of LGDs overseas in working environments do not health check. The "survival of the fittest" doesnt exactly apply either, as by the time many problems shw up, the dog has already bred litters. I know of more imported LGD dogs WITH health problems than without. Importers know they can send us the garbage, because we cant return to sender back to Europe.


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## redtailgal (Sep 27, 2011)

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## bluemini (Sep 27, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Kaleighmae:
> No hostilites here, just open discussion!
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## watchdogps (Sep 28, 2011)

KaleighMaeA said:
			
		

> Anyway, to get ready for that I sent in my males UKC paperwork and it got approved. Well I took my female to the vet again to get her all checked out. The vet told me he did not think she had great pyr in her.


I also wanted to point out that vets in general don't know squat about breeds. Unless the vet has taken a serious special interest in studying LGDs and rare breeds, chnaces are good he wouldnt know a sar if it bit him. I have seen vets make the most preposterous guesses on breeds, or tell people their dogs were or were not pure and be very wrong. Vets know guts, not conformation.


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## carolinagirl (Sep 29, 2011)

watchdogps said:
			
		

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isn't that the truth!  My friend's vet just told her that her chihuahua is part dachund because his back is long.  Never mind that every other feature this dog has is pure chihuahua!  He's just a bad example of the breed!


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## Ms. Research (Sep 29, 2011)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

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Definitely a fact.  Veternarian college does not teach breed, only structure and anatomy.  DH went through that in the late 70's with his Kuvacz.   When he moved back to New Jersey he had to do extensive research on vets in the area to find one that would even look at Marque.  They had no idea what a Kuvacz, nor its disposition.  But DH found one and Dr. Chase was excellent with both Marque and Ice.  You really have to look for a vet who is breed specific.


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## KaleighMaeA (Sep 30, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Kaleighmae:
> No hostilites here, just open discussion!
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Thank you for the advise. I actually have been running ads. I have a couple of updates on the situation which makes me feel much better about it. One, I have my male Yugo's UKC paperwork in hand. Two, I THINK (fingers crossed!!!) after a lot of detective work I have found the original parents of my female! I am waiting on an e-mail back from the original breeder to confirm, and if so her parents are UKC registered which would be a huge relief for me. Hopefully I will know something for certain soon.

As for the female being passed from owner to owner yes it's strange for that to happen and would normally throw up a red flag. However, the reason for it was due to a previous owners health issue causing him to lose his farm. It was really just a serious of unfortunate events, which I would gladly describe to someone wanting a puppy. 

You bring up a good point about the health along the line. The great thing is with my male he came from a very well respected breeder in the united states, and I have had him examined by a local vet as well. I do wish I could find a vet familiar with the breed though. My normal vet isn't, so I thought I'd call around and find one who was. Literally 17 calls later I gave up and he went back to the usual vet. That part of things is slightly discouraging, but at least the effort was made?

The comment about personality complementing was a great point. I think so mainly because my male is much more aloof than my female and wants to be with other animals. He'll come get attention occasionally from me, but he seems fairly indifferent to it most of the time. My female also does great with other animals, but she is much more social than my male. She wants some daily attention. I think their puppies would be good simply because hopefully they will fall somewhere in the middle 

I guess at this point I'm just going to see how things turn out. The biggest thing I want to hear is from that breeder to see if my female was in fact from a litter of hers. If so I'll feel much better. I am not going to advertise anything about the female until I get that information back because I want to be as accurate as possible.


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## redtailgal (Sep 30, 2011)




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