# Please, I need help from anyone who's dealt with CL.  *UPDATE* pg 3



## Our7Wonders (Jan 25, 2011)

Ugh.  So I have to make decisions.  I won't get the CL test back until Thursday or Friday, but everything points to positive.  Unless a miracle occurs and they are not positive, I'm going to have to euthanize.  We truly are BACKYARD herders  well frontyard would be more accurate, but it's a true small scale little urban farm (emphasis on small).  I have no room at all to run a clean area and an infected area.  If I keep CL does, that's all I'm ever going to have.  Not an option.  So I can't keep them.  Period.  

They are due to kid next month.  So what are the chances of me being able to catch the babies and keep them un-infected? And THEN, what are the chances of being able to disinfect the original area  - shed, run, and all  after I remove the infected does?

I don't have enough property to start another goat area.  Supposing I am able to catch the babies and keep them clean, can I  set up a small separate area while they're little, giving me time to hopefully clear out the CL?  My shed is not on a permanat foundation  it can be moved, not easily but can be moved.  If I were to move it, disinfect all the walls with bleach, can I torch the ground, then cover with some sort of disinfectant  then later move the shed back and put the babies in there?  

If I can't clean the ground I have to quit altogether.  If isolating the babies isn't likely to keep them from getting it then we'll have to euthanize now and get new babies in the spring to start over with  but that does me no good if I can't clean the area first.  I hate that this forces my hand so much.  I've never had to euthanize anything.  The thought of putting a doe with babies down is about the toughest thing I've ever had to face.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.  I don't want to throw in the tail entirely, but I may have to.



Edited because I meant to say: "throw in the TOWEL, not tail, but I guess that works too.


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## jodief100 (Jan 25, 2011)

I have dealt with CL and so has Roll Farms.  Everyone has a different perspective on it but this is mine.
I think CL is the dirty little secret in the goat world.  People do not want to admit they *might* have it.  They do not test goats because they want plausible deniability.  They do not vaccinate because it makes the goat test positive.  I suspect it is far more prevalent than most are willing to admit.  
I have CL positive animals.  I keep CL positive animals.  I isolate when they have active abscesses (small pen).  I use Cas-Bac and vaccinate every animal that comes on the property, unless it is a terminal animal.  My kids are dam-raised, even the ones that I suspect have CL.  I have seen no sign of it beyond the three that originally had it.  I tell anyone who is buying a non-terminal animal from me that we have had signs and we vaccinate.  
I do not think it is the end of the world.  It is highly contagious and difficult to get out of everything.  I recommend vaccinating everyone and just dealing with it.  Especially since you have a small, home herd I do not see any reason to euthanize all your animals.  Just be vigilant with vaccinating and be honest with your customers.  Bottle raise any you know are going to be sold as non-terminal animals if it makes you feel better but I dont. 
I bought those original three animals from a closed, clean herd.  He even showed me test results.  I have never tested them for CL, didnt bother because I am 90% certain that is what they have.  The signs are clear.  

Good Luck and I hope you can find a solution that works for you.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 25, 2011)

My concern, though, since it is passable to people, is the safety of having my kids around them.  And drinking the milk.  My whole reason behind getting the does to begin with is to have fresh raw, disease free, hormone free, antibiotic free milk.  If people can catch it, what if it turns into the internal kind - is it possible for it to infect the milk?  And the current abscess location is one that I would have ruptured trying to milk her.  And how do you monitor EVERY abscess?  The one currently on her back is smaller than a pea - I wouldn't have found it if I hadn't specifically been looking for it.  I didn't check her underside either - there could be more.  

Because I only have room for three, maybe four does total I can't keep two who's milk is not safe to drink. 

Please don't get me wrong, if I had the space I could totally see trying to make it work, I just can't see anyway around it with our current setting.  I certainly don't criticize anyone who keeps CL animals and works around it, I wish I could becasue I truely love these animals.  I just can't keep them HERE.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 25, 2011)

With out repeating everything Jodief100 just said. That is what we also do.  And just a heads up, it probaby wont be the only disease you have to deal with.  




Good luck on your decision.


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## jodief100 (Jan 25, 2011)

It is my understanding that CL is transmissible to humans though the skin and presents as a rash.  Since CL is prevelant and many people do not even know they have it, I doubt it can be transmitted to people through the milk. If it could,  it would be significant enough problem that the CDC would get involved and they aren't. 

The abcesses I see are large enough to spot easily before they rupture.   If they are on her teats then I would not drink the milk when she has an active abcess but mine have them rarely.  In fact I haven't had any for over a year.

I am not criticizing.  I will certainly understand and will support you if you feel you need to euthanize.  I just do not want it to be a panic based knee jerk reaction.  I think CL is a boogeyman of some sorts and people tend to freak out about it, when it is a manageable desease.   I know you care about your animals and it is a difficult decision.  I want to have all the facts before you make it.  

Do some serious research about the danger to humans and please make sure your information comes from a reliable, scientific based source- not speculation or conjuncture.  Or worse, someone with an agenda.  I do not think it is a significant problem but I admit I have not looked into it in awhile.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree w/ what Jodie says..  I consider myself lucky -- and nothing more -- that I haven't had to deal with CL.  I'm even tempted to qualify that last statement with a "yet," because it's just so prevalent here.  

I'd even go so far as to say it's _endemic_ to Kentucky at this point.

Anyway, I think if you q-pen active adults, catch babies, feed clean milk, and vaccinate w/ Case-Bac, you'll be fine..  Just keep your young'ins out of the q-pen if you're worried they'll get a big honkin' case of the cheesy gland themselves.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 25, 2011)

thanks guys, I do appreciate your insight.  No knee-jerk decisions.  I'll be researching everything I can get my hands on over the next several days, possibly even weeks if it seems we can keep the babies free.

I hope I don't seem cold or cruel since I'm considering this.  I love my goats, I really do.  I've been looking forward to getting them for years, giddy like a child when we actually got them.  The fact that I'm even having to *think* about it is gut wrenching and heart breaking.

I'm hoping Rolls replies, I think I remember she takes the babies at birth.  I'm wondering how her success at keeping them clean has gone.

Thanks again!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 25, 2011)

"I'd even go so far as to say it's endemic to Kentucky at this point."



I would say it is an epedemic here in Virginia, also.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 25, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I'm hoping Rolls replies, I think I remember she takes the babies at birth.  I'm wondering how her success at keeping them clean has gone.


From what I can remember from previous discussions, her efforts have been very successful.

Like, waaay successful.



And, FWIW, I don't consider culling sick animals to be cold or cruel, especially when it's out of concern for human health and/or the health of the rest of the herd.  It sucks to even have to consider the option, sure, but it's only logical.


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## jodief100 (Jan 25, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I agree w/ what Jodie says..  I consider myself lucky -- and nothing more -- that I haven't had to deal with CL.  I'm even tempted to qualify that last statement with a "yet," because it's just so prevalent here.
> 
> I'd even go so far as to say it's _endemic_ to Kentucky at this point.
> 
> Anyway, I think if you q-pen active adults, catch babies, feed clean milk, and vaccinate w/ Case-Bac, you'll be fine..  Just keep your young'ins out of the q-pen if you're worried they'll get a big honkin' case of the cheesy gland themselves.


Chad-  I think the bigger concern is can CL in the milk affect the humans that drink the milk?  I suspect you may know the answer to that one better than I.


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## Roll farms (Jan 25, 2011)

I milk does w/ CL....I drink milk from does w/ CL.  

I think I've only ever seen a doe get 1 internal udder abscess....and it wasn't in the part of the udder that made milk, it was above it.

Until we got a handle on it, I was probably popping (lancing) 20 or so lumps a year...I wore gloves, of course.

I never let them pop on their own, and disinfected the lanced area well afterward.  

CL can only be caught through broken skin, so your kids would have to rub a cut on an open abscess that still had ick in it.
Possible???  Yes.
Likely to happen???  Probably not.  

(I'm still not sure the one on your doe's udder is CL, from the pic you posted BUT...I also have said many times you can't diagnose it via the internet or w/ a picture.)  
A pea sized lump elsewhere on the body could be...a pea sized lump.

You could come and look at every goat on our place and never know I own CAE or CL positive animals....good diet, minerals, and overall conditions make a world of difference in my opinion with how symptomatic they are.

And I've never had a kid we've sold come back positive.
I only vaccinate our "keeper" kids...the ones for sale aren't vaccinated and are kept in a 'clean' area. 
200 or so kids, all clean...I'd agree, that's pretty successful.

I'm not saying you should....I'm just saying it can be lived with / dealt with and the milk shouldn't be contaminated unless you have the ick on you / get it in the milk that way.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 25, 2011)

Good to know, Rolls - I've been hoping you would post because of your experience.  Not that I don't appreciate everyone's comments, I just wanted to hear about the status of your babies - especially those that were sold unvaccinated.  HUGE relief.  

The lump on her back was more than just a lump - it was missing all the hair and blistery looking just like the one on her udder, only smaller but certainly fluid filled.  It was buried in the surrounding hair because it was so small, but once the hair was separated it was obvious it was another cyst/abscess/boil or whatever.  I just don't know how successful I could be at catching ALL the abscesses - if it even turns out to be that.  I'm hopeful, but remaining realistic too.

Thanks to all!  I'm feeling better.  DH took me out of the house to help clear my mind.  I got onion rings, it helped - I'm an emotional eater!!  I'm not much of a drinker either, but he insisted I needed a a drink - I think he was looking for an excuse for himself .  Likely he needs it to put up with me and my anxiety today!  I'm prone to wind myself a little to tight when I'm stressed out or worried.  I'm better now.  I have deep fryer grease running through my vains and a drink waiting for me.  Picked up a DVD to keep me from dwelling on things tonight - so I'm good!

Thanks for letting me stress/vent guys!


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## babsbag (Jan 25, 2011)

I have 2 does with CL, but no abcesses to date. It is my understanding that the kids can only get CL from an open abcess. I have 3 does from CL positives dams that are CL free as of a month ago. I wouldn't be too worried about the kids getting CL from the dam unless there is an open abcess, it is not passed through the milk unless there is an internal abcess in the udder. Depending on what the titers are, if they did an SHI test, you will know what the likelyhood is of an internal abcess and then you can decide. I don't think that pulling the kids in really necessary to prevent CL from being spread. CAE, yes, but not CL.

My vet had CL in her herd and she had a vaccine made that was just for her strain of CL, not cheap, but effective. It did control it for her.

I am sure there are people that will take you does even if they are CL positive. 

I am hoping the best for you and your girls. I hate decisions like these.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jan 26, 2011)

Personally, I would not keep or buy animals that had CL or were from herds with CL in it. We drink the milk raw, I have three children who drink that milk and CL is zoonotic. I does cross species and its not a chance I would be willing to take. There a lot of herds that do not have CL in them and there a great many people in the dairy world that will not buy CL positive animals, so it can really hurt your sales.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 26, 2011)

Oat Bucket Farm said:
			
		

> There a lot of herds that do not have CL in them and there a great many people in the dairy world that will not buy CL positive animals, so it can really hurt your sales.


There are fewer herds without CL than people will admit, too, and there are a great many people in the dairy world who will sell you an animal out of a CL+ herd and lie right through their teeth about it because disclosing *the truth* would really hurt their sales.

Hence, someone's earlier comment about the *real* prevalence of CL being the "dirty little secret" of the goating world.

Personally, I wish more people were like Roll and Jodie and others here who don't try to *hide* their CL status, but are instead open about it and actually go on record as advocates for vaccination and give folks examples of real-world quarantine protocols, etc.. 

What they're doing is how the war against CL in goats is ultimately going to be won -- not by lying.


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## babsbag (Jan 26, 2011)

My 2 CL goats will ALWAYS stay on my ranch, and be bred by MY buck (if I breed them again), and any kids I have will be tested as yearlings (after 8 months) before I breed them. I have not sold any kids yet so I haven't had to deal with "disclosure", but I will certainly let people know that I have 2 does that are CL positive, but that I have never had an abcess (knock on wood). 

I agree that truth is the only way to go. I just wish the vaccine wouldn't give a positive test. That makes it so hard to know if they are + because of the vaccine, or did the vaccine fail. I have no history on my does, for all I know they could have been vaccinated and not even be positive.

I wonder if the titers on a vaccinated goat change from year to year or do they settle in at a number and stay there?

In my part of California it is not hard to find a clean CL dairy herd, but it is almost impossible to find a clean CL boer herd, or even find someone who test their boer herd. Very frustrating.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 27, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Oat Bucket Farm said:
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  I totally agree!!!!  Be part of the solution!!! Not part of the problem!!!    Great job Roll & Jodie!!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 27, 2011)

IF more people admitted to it, and worked with the vaccine, there would be more money going towards the companies that help produce the vaccine and more reason for them to keep working on treatments.  First step to finding a solution is admitting there is a problem. 

We sell our does that are going into breeding programs with a package of paperwork explaining our recommended care of the animal, this includes a section explaining common diseases in goats and what to do if you see certain symptoms. There is a section in their explaing what CL is and the importance of having isolation pens incase you see any animal on your farm developing an abcess.  I wish someone had done this for me. Most of us beginners learn the hard way. Like we did. 

There are many diseases that may be sitting dormant in a herd, and wont break in an animal until they are stressed from transferring to a new farm. Things like soremouth, and STD's like Chlamydia can exit in animals and herds and nerver show it's ugly head until an animal goes to a new situation and it stresses them out, The person you buy the animal from swears they never dealt with it. You know it had to come from their farm.  Both of you may be right.


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jan 27, 2011)

I personally have never had CL on my place and I personally know several breeders that don't have it either because they are very careful where they buy, they test and they work very hard to maintian healthy disease free herds. To assume that those of us that work very hard to keep this out of our herds are lying to cover it up is rather insulting. But whatever you lilke. I prefer not to propogate animals with disease (especially zoonotic ones)on my place. The attitude that CL is not that big of deal and that it is everywhere is where the problem lies.My view my be unpopular here but so be it.


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## elevan (Jan 27, 2011)

OBF - I don't think anyone is accusing you of deception.

There are several topics on this forum that generate strong opinions to both sides of the coin and this is one of them.

I don't have any CL on my farm, but if I did I would be honest about it too.  I also don't think I would have a problem drinking the milk (as Roll stated)...having done my own research first to come to this conclusion.

You cannot trust every website to not have an agenda, so I tend to look at the education websites and cdc website for my answers on something so serious.  And because breeder opinions will vary greatly, you can only weigh them as a percentage of your final decision, and not rely on them solely to make your decision.

edited for spelling


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 27, 2011)

Oat Bucket Farm said:
			
		

> I personally have never had CL on my place and I personally know several breeders that don't have it either because they are very careful where they buy, they test and they work very hard to maintian healthy disease free herds. To assume that those of us that work very hard to keep this out of our herds are lying to cover it up is rather insulting. But whatever you lilke. I prefer not to propogate animals with disease (especially zoonotic ones)on my place. The attitude that CL is not that big of deal and that it is everywhere is where the problem lies.My view my be unpopular here but so be it.


I can understand this perspective to a point.  But someone who DOES test and hasn't had ANY additional positives because of their management practices will have eradicated it from their herd a heck of a lot faster than a breeder who just doesn't test.  The people who don't test because they want plausible deniability are the ones propagating animals with disease and, I'm assuming, the target of accusations about cover-ups.  If you test then you're accusation free and there's no need to feel insulted.


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## jodief100 (Jan 27, 2011)

I do not think anyone here is saying CL is no big deal.  It is a HUGE deal.  Having gone through the process of *Whisky-Tango-Foxtrot* are we going to do myself I can attest to that.   

It is just not always financially or emotionally practical to cull everything with CL.  It is prevalent, it is a serious problem and it needs to be addressed and discussed.  

We are just pointing out that that there is no need to panic and it can be managed.   If everyone would vaccinate the problem would be dramatically reduced but people are afraid to because they do not want their goats testing positive due to the vaccine.  That is where discussion and honesty comes in.

The CL test is not always accurate and some goats never show signs.  You may have it in your herd and never know it, even with testing.  The test checks for antibodies- not the disease.   If the animal is asymptomatic, the titers can be low enough not to show up in a test but the animal *still* has the disease.    The goats that brought it into my herd came from a clean, closed herds, and he had test records to back it up.  I do not think he lied, I think he never had signs and some test results were false positives.  

Pont being- everyone needs to do what is best for their herd and their family.  I just want them to have ALL of the information available to them before making such a serious decision.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 27, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> The goats that brought it into my herd came from a clean, closed herds ...


OR...maybe it came in on a whitetail deer.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 27, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> OR...maybe it came in on a whitetail deer.


Ugh.  Didn't even think of the possibility of something like that.  We have white tail deer that walk all through our property in the winter - tracks all over.


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## jodief100 (Jan 27, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
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I think that may be the biggest factor in your decision.  No matter what you do, how well you test, how picky you are about buying...... things happen.  

There are two types of livestock owners, those who *have* had disease on their farms and those that *will have* disease on their farms.  

Unless you live in a bubble, it will happen.


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## cmjust0 (Jan 27, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
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I've seen the goats as they catch sight of deer before, and they kinda go...hmm...what's that?  And the deer kinda do the same thing.  And then there was the day there appeared to be "extra goats" browsing with the herd. Goat, goat, deer, goat, deer, etc..

It's nothing around here to see cow, cow, cow, cow, deer, cow, deer, cow, etc all standing around a round bale feeder together, chowing down..

No way to stop that.

Oh, and a neighbor pulled up one day and said "Are you missing a goat?"  Uhh, no. Why?  "A little baby nanny showed up at the house and I thought she might be yours.  She's real purty.  You want her?"  Uhh, no.  Thanks, though.

Like I said -- neighbor.  That purty baby nanny could just as easily have wandered on down the road a piece, seen my goats, and found a way into my barnyard.  As herd animals, it would be *quite likely* that she'd have felt compelled to do just that..


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 27, 2011)

The difference with me and my little herd, though, is these are my ONLY goats.  There won't be the "Clean goats" and "CL positive goats" that I responsibly quarentine during abscesses.  Either I have two healthy disease free goats or I have two CL positive goats.  My understanding is vaccinating positive goats is not a good thing - can cause more abscesses.  My herd CAN'T grow by much at all, so it's not like I can keep these two and responsibly work towards (hopefully) having a CL free herd down the road.  

So, if they come back positive, it comes down to do I ONLY want CL does or do want to at least TRY to have clean does.  On my small scale their isn't room for both.

I do respect and applaud those that are able to do both - and if it were an option at all I would certainly consider it.  For me, the best option is to do what ever is in my power to have clean does to start with and then do my best to maintain that status - obviously there's no guarantee.

I do appreciate everyone's insight - it has been very helpful and after my initial *panic* I'm far less freaked out.  I still feel I cannot have CL+ does here for the reasons above, BUT I'm not terrified of my does currently and do feel I stand a good chance at keeping the babies clean and through burning and sanitization I feel it's possible to clean out our current goat area.  

I agree with OatBucket in that I'm not comfortable feeding my family raw milk from an animal with known disease.  I don't mean that as an insult to anyone who does.  The ONLY reason we bought goats was to have clean, natural, healthy, raw milk.  Them becoming loved pets was secondary.  While it may not be harmful to drink the milk, it's just not a risk I'm willing to take.  I truely hope that doesn't offend.  If I had other does who's milk I was willing to drink and could keep these does in addition to, I would certainly be willing to consider doing so.


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## Our7Wonders (Jan 27, 2011)

So guess what?!  Just as I was hitting submit on my last post, the vet calls.

Preliminary report comes back negative for CL!!!!!!!  So far the only thing showing is staph!  He said we're not out of the woods entirely, but at this point it looks pretty good!  He'll get the final report tomorrow or Monday!

While I had downgraded from panic to deep concern - now I'm super relieved and SO VERY HAPPY!!!!!!    

And I'm totally ok with anyone who wants to say "I told you so!!!"  I deserve it, so I welcome it!!!!

I'm gonna go hug my goats!


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## lilhill (Jan 27, 2011)




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## helmstead (Jan 27, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> So far the only thing showing is staph!


Told ya so!!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 27, 2011)

Great news!


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## chandasue (Jan 27, 2011)

What a relief!


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## babsbag (Jan 27, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> The CL test is not always accurate and some goats never show signs.  You may have it in your herd and never know it, even with testing.  The test checks for antibodies- not the disease.   If the animal is asymptomatic, the titers can be low enough not to show up in a test but the animal *still* has the disease.    The goats that brought it into my herd came from a clean, closed herds, and he had test records to back it up.  I do not think he lied, I think he never had signs and some test results were false positives.


That isn't my understanding of how the SHI test works. Titers of <1:8, negative, >1:8 positive. Pretty straight forward if you are testing adult animals. Vaccination throws if off of course. The test will tell you if your animal has been exposed, and that means they are positive. It does not tell you that they currently are contagious. Big difference. There are always the false tests, + and -, but I feel pretty safe that my clean ones are clean, at least this year.

Interesting article.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/sheep/as1353.htm

Here is a quote from part of it.

"The University of California at Davis has developed a synergistic hemolysis inhibition (SHI) serologic test for diagnosing caseous lymphadenitis. The test has 95 percent sensitivity and 98 percent specificity based on testing in 100 positive goats. 

Chronic cases characterized by walled-off abscesses will result in false negative results, and the vaccine will induce false positive results. Titers greater than 1:256 have a 95 percent correlation with internal abscesses and a peak titer of 1:64 is associated with vaccination. Therefore, the test does provide some indication as to whether the animal is a vaccine positive or has hidden internal abscesses. More reliable results can be gathered based on the SHI serology if multiple samples are collected and analyzed during one or two months. However, all these conclusions have been made using goats; hence, researchers do not know if similar results can be gathered for sheep. "

If you test the same animals every year, as I do, then you will see if the titers change and then you will know what you are looking at. 

At least this is how it has been explained to me by my vet.


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## Roll farms (Jan 28, 2011)

You can attempt to keep a clean, disease free herd, and buy only from breeders who SAY the goats are clean, and buy goats w/ a state health certificate...and STILL GET CL.

Implying that everyone w/ CL positive animals have gone out willy-nilly and bought any old sale barn animal they could find, or untested animals, etc. (buying indiscriminately / irresponsibly) is every bit as insulting as implying that everyone w/ a clean herd is a liar.

I also attempted to buy healthy, disease free animals.  Guess what?  Because of a DISHONEST PERSON, it failed.

Having actually dealt with CL for 8 years, I know very well how 'big a deal' it is, and would never say it isn't.

I couldn't kill my goats because someone lied to me about their status.

Because I am willing to live with it DOES NOT make me 'wrong', just as I wouldn't judge those who make the very hard decision to not live w/ it.

It is each person / situations' very hard choice to make...

O7W, I am glad you got negative test results, and would have supported your decision either way.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 28, 2011)

Yay!!!!!!!!!  Good for you!!!


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## jodief100 (Jan 28, 2011)

babsbag said:
			
		

> "The University of California at Davis has developed a synergistic hemolysis inhibition (SHI) serologic test for diagnosing caseous lymphadenitis. The test has *95 percent sensitivity *and 98 percent specificity based on testing in 100 positive goats.
> 
> Chronic cases characterized by walled-off abscesses will result in *false negative results*, and the vaccine will induce false positive results. Titers greater than 1:256 have a *95 percent correlation *with internal abscesses and a peak titer of 1:64 is associated with vaccination. Therefore, the test does provide *some indication *as to whether the animal is a vaccine positive or has hidden internal abscesses.


Babsbag:  Thank you for the article.  It was very informative and it has proven my point.  The test is not 100% accurate as shown by the statements I have highlighted above.
I admire your diligence in testing every year and ensuring your animals are healthy.  I am very glad to see that you are working very hard to ensure your customers get good quality, healthy animals.  I wish more breeders would take the initiative and do everything they can.

This is a very complicated issue and there is no one right answer Everyone needs to make decisions based on their own personal goals and needs.  
Being open and honest about these diseases is what is going to eradicate them.   Not standing in judgment or running and hiding. Fact is, they are prevalent, they are difficult to prevent and impossible to cure.  Even with prevention and testing, there are no guarantees.  

O7W:  I am so glad you do not have to make those difficult choices.  I would have stood by you and supported you no matter what you had decided.  You did your research, asked people for their experiences and would have made the educated and rational choice you needed to make for your situation.


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## rebelINny (Jan 28, 2011)

Glad to hear it came back clear!


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## Oat Bucket Farm (Jan 28, 2011)

I am so happy for you. I told you in the other thread it looked more staph-like.

I agree that it is a very difficult decision for anyone to make and that dishonest people can put you in the position of having to make those decisions. I also agree that if you have it in your herd that being honest about it and educating new owners about it so they can properly manage anything that crops up in their herds is a good thing and its a shame more people aren't honest.

And then you get the people who just don't care (and I don't think that is anyone on this board based on your replies) who make it more difficult for those fighting this disease. 

Please take my heartfelt apologies if my post was offensive or if it came off as snarky, it was not intended that way.


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## mamato3 (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks for this post i have been having to decide to get this doe from a cl positve herd though the doe does not have it and she pulled her as a baby and  bottle feed . I was told not to get her though she is so cute and healthy looking.


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## Roll farms (Jan 29, 2011)

I guarantee our kids to be CL, CAE, and Johnes CLEAN.  
If a kid I've sold ever got a lump or sick, I would take it back and give a full refund.
Hasn't happened yet....


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## mossyStone (Jan 29, 2011)

Honesty is everything to me... i live by it and deal in it.... I am so glad to see so many people on here open and honest on there herds..it's a good thing to see!


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## bbredmom (Feb 6, 2011)

We bought five papered and fair winning pygmy goats back in July. We asked about CAE, CL, and Johnnes, and the woman said, to our face, they were all negative and she would be happy to have her contact us with his results. We trusted her, bought the goats, and were very happy. 

Within two months the 8 month old had two lumps and a third growing. We tested all five and our two pre-cl goats. all five were positive, and luckily our two were negative. We could not get a hold of the woman or her vet, and had no legal actions. 

Luckily we were able to find a woman who is setting up a CL+ rescue who took them all. Otherwise we would had the same tough decision as you though you did. We vaccinated our two negatives and so far have remained negative. We were able to catch and lance the lumps in an isolated place which is still off limits.

I bought papered, show goats from a breeder who brought CL to my property. Before this I was the newbie who went to the sale barn and bought scrub goats and had no CL at all. With goats, it can be completely random.

We plan on vaccinating all babies at 12 weeks, 16 weeks, and every year after that. Any new goats that come on our property will also be tested and if negative vaccinated, even if I have documentation in my hot little hands that says they are already negative. Just not going to take the chance on spreading it any further.

I tell people we have had CL on our property, but that we vaccinate and quarentine. Like CM, Roll Farms, and Jodie, I try for complete honesty, especially since CL can come in on shoes, tires, dogs, or white tail.


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