# Copper Deficiency - Is Loose Mineral Enough?



## Hobby Farm (May 17, 2011)

After doing some research, we have come to the conclusion that several of our milking does are copper deficient.  My brown colored Alpine is having trouble holding her weight and her hair is either falling out or turning white.  My Cou Blanc Alpines white hair is changing to a copper color, and neither of them are producing milk like they did last year.  I also fear one of their kids was born w/ congeial copper deficiency, but the jury is still out on that one.  As for the treatment options......We are considering copper bolusing, but would prefer to go a different route if possible.  I just got some Sweetlix mineral (Caprine Milk Magnum), and will be offering it to them free choice.  I am wondering if this alone might give them enough copper to get them back to a normal level.  I realize it will take longer than the bolus, but over time do you think it will it replenish their deficiency?  Any other suggestions are welcomed.
TIA


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

We have been using loose minerals and ours are still copper deficient, so we are bolusing this year. 

Talked to the vet about this and they seemed suprised that they would be copper deficient, but they are.  There is some thought that soy based grains is interferring with copper absorption. 

That mineral is a good one for your does, but don't feed it to your bucks/bucklings/whethers.  It has only a 1:1 calciumhosphorus ratio. 


The loose minerals will cetainly help.  but may not be enough.


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## Hobby Farm (May 17, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> We have been using loose minerals and ours are still copper deficient, so we are bolusing this year.
> 
> Talked to the vet about this and they seemed suprised that they would be copper deficient, but they are.  There is some thought that soy based grains is interferring with copper absorption.
> 
> ...


Are yours showing the same symptoms as what I have described above?


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## phoenixmama (May 17, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> There is some thought that soy based grains is interferring with copper absorption.


This makes a lot of sense.  The phytic acid in soy keeps your body (and I can only imagine their's too) from assimilating minerals.


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## freemotion (May 17, 2011)

My does are copper deficient this year and have never touch a crumb of soy...and I soak their grain so there should be no mineral blockers.

But....I've read that hay from fertilized fields will also cause problems.  That is all I can get here.  They dump the fertilizer on to get more cuttings.  I bolused a couple of months ago and STILL have problems!    I imagine it takes some time to correct.  No white hairs here, but some rusty thighs on the black dairy does.  And some of the babies needed BoSe.


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## Hobby Farm (May 17, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I bolused a couple of months ago and STILL have problems!    I imagine it takes some time to correct.  No white hairs here, but some rusty thighs on the black dairy does.  And some of the babies needed BoSe.


I have heard and read that you should see some immediate results after bolusing, but apparently that isn't the case.  Have you noticed a decrease in their milk production as well?


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

Hobby Farm said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
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I don't milk so it is hard for me to say what the milk out put is, they seemed to do a good job nursing their kids.  But I have a lot of fish-tail does and does with rough hair coats that curl up and look frayed and rusty.  I have about half of them bolused right now,over the past month,  and I can't say I have been noticing immediate changes in hair coat, We decided to try bolusing hoping it would slow down the barber pole worms and I had hoped it would help improve their hair coats as well. 

I would say if you haven't been feeding any minerals your going to see some improvement just from offering them loose minerals free-choice.

We are also thinking about increasing the fat in the feed during their lactation period(nursing kids).  Right now our feed contains 2.5% fat and we would like to get it closer to 4%, Haven't decided exactly what we want to try adding or if we are going to try to have our own feed made. Just tossing the idea around.


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## freemotion (May 17, 2011)

Hobby Farm said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
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I bolused about a month before anyone was due so I don't really know.  I don't breed/feed for maximum output but more for homestead production....hardier goats, not 2 gallon a day producers.

I got a batch of hay this spring that is gorgeous second cut HORSE hay but everyone started losing weight on it....plus the three does that kidded had triplets, twins, and triplets.  Quite a  drain on the body.  I pulled all the kids.  The first doe is back in decent condition and gaining,  the second is starting to put weight on, and the third, the ff that had triplets a week ago, still is rather skeletal in spite of getting all the food she want and the best of it.  I begged three bales of alfalfa from a horse farm yesterday and she is plowing into it.  It is to rain all week this week and my pasture is growing noticeably.  So if copper deficiency is adding to these problems, I don't know.  There are too many other factors here this spring.

Getting storage for enough hay to last through the entire season is priority #1 this year.


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## Hobby Farm (May 17, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Hobby Farm said:
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I have been offering free choice mineral, but I don't think there is enough copper in it.

For adding fat, you could try top dress your current ration with black sunflower seeds.  I think there is like 50 grams of fat/cup.  Plus they love them.  Before this copper deficiency started showing itself, our does had very thick, shiny coats, and I think the BSS helped.  I put 1 1/2 pounds of them per 50 pounds of milk stand ration.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

Have you heard of cargill right now Onyx loose minerals for cattle.  This is becoming popular with goat people but can be hard to find. I am in the process of trying to order some. 

What mineral were you using? 

I just got a bag of BOSS and it was $17 for a 25lb bag. I can't afford much of it.  thought I would try adding it to the ration of 4 of my yearling does that are getting ready to kid in June.


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## Hobby Farm (May 17, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Have you heard of cargill right now Onyx loose minerals for cattle.  This is becoming popular with goat people but can be hard to find. I am in the process of trying to order some.


No, I have never heard of this.  I'm googling it right now.



> What mineral were you using?


I have been using the mix my mill offers intended for goats(at least that's what they told me).  It's something they make in house.  It was half the price of other mineral, so I thought I was getting a deal, but it turns out I'm paying for the difference now.  Lesson learnt


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## Hobby Farm (May 17, 2011)

I found it online (Onyx), but I can't find the make-up breakdown.

ETA:  I just found the composition on Sweet Desert Farm's website.  I like the feeder.
http://www.sweetdeseret.com/wblog/?p=93


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

Hobby Farm said:
			
		

> I found it online (Onyx), but I can't find the make-up breakdown.
> 
> ETA:  I just found the composition on Sweet Desert Farm's website.  I like the feeder.
> http://www.sweetdeseret.com/wblog/?p=93


I've been wanting to build a couple of those, just haven't gotten around to it.


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## Our7Wonders (May 17, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> My does are copper deficient this year and have never touch a crumb of soy...and I soak their grain so there should be no mineral blockers.
> 
> But....I've read that hay from fertilized fields will also cause problems.  That is all I can get here.  They dump the fertilizer on to get more cuttings.  I bolused a couple of months ago and STILL have problems!    I imagine it takes some time to correct.  No white hairs here, but some rusty thighs on the black dairy does.  And some of the babies needed BoSe.


Same problem here.  I bolused right after each doe delivered and still showing some symptoms.  No soy (or very little - they were getting some in the top dressed calf manna, but that was a small % of their feed).  Their feed is overnight soaked oats, barley, and BOSS.  Like FM, I have concluded we have a hay issue.  Goats on the same feed at the dairy (where my goats came from) all look great.  They're on the same city water too.  I give free choice sweetlix meatmaker mineral and free choice kelp.  I got my hay from a different farm.  It's an alfalfa mix, but mostly alfalfa.  I just think it was either the fertilizer or some sort of pesticide that is causing our copper and iron deficiencies.  I can hardly wait for the new hay crops.  I can't afford 12-15 bucks a bail so we're having to use up this crappy hay.


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## DonnaBelle (May 17, 2011)

I use Purina Goat Minerals, free choice.   I wonder if there is a preferred method of providing minerals or a preferred brand??

My Lenora has a few reddish hairs showing up in her coat now.  She is ready to kid any minute, but she's had plenty of hay, alfalfa, and goat developer feed, plus BOSS and Calf Manna.

I think being pregnant and feeding little kids really takes a lot out of a doe.

About the only thing food/supplement wise I haven't done is the copper bolusing.  I'm wondering how you would find out if a doe is needing copper??  Is there a test, etc.

DonnaBelle


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

this article has good information about copper and testing animals for copper. 

Pretty much it says their is no good way to do copper testing on live animals, liver biopsy can be dangerous and can be done during an autopsy.


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## ohiofarmgirl (May 18, 2011)

20kids - i just read that article yesterday!

so i'm in the same boat with everyone and after trying to stuff them full of free choice minerals and sunflowers seeds.. i'm throwing in the towel and have ordered copasure from Valley Vet. they have a deal for free shipping for orders over $60 so i threw in a few things (i got a total of $58 and then just added a couple syringes to hit $60). 

the good news is that i'm splitting the order with my neighbors. they suspect their flock needs copper also. 

we are thinking its the crappy hay also. and its been raining her so badly that the goats cant/wont get outside and browse. i've been bringing them buckets of thistles and such... but everything is so muddy they just stay inside and pout. 

it will be interesting to track everyone's success. i guess last year was the Year of Worm Doom and this year is Copper Deficiency?


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## 20kidsonhill (May 18, 2011)

Got mine from valley vet, you can also get the empty gel caps from them. 

THe tub of copasure we got came with this black rubber tip to put on the end of a drenching syringe, it works pretty well. You fill the drenching syringe with water put the capsul into the black tip that goes on the end of the drenching syringe and then jam down their throat and push all the water in to release the capsul and wash it down their throat.   With two people working on it, it goes pretty well. 

I tried the marshmellow method, but most of my goats wouldn't touch the marshmellows and once a couple of the bossy does got the idea how delicious they were, they wouldn't let any of the other does near me. I just decided that was too inaccurate.  I do have one doe know from my attempts that is now my best friend on the planet, and is looking for those marshmellows.  My daughter even commented the other day, "what is up with that doe, she isn't normally that friendly?"

Just seems easier to me to load up the capsules and just get it done, I was just pouring out half the capsules and putting them in another one, since my goats are 120 plus lbs, if you have smaller goats, you probably need to do a better job measuring it.


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## ohiofarmgirl (May 18, 2011)

i'm guessing its going to be a fight to get this down the goaties so i'm bringing a professional - the 4H neighbor kid.

;-)


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## Hobby Farm (May 18, 2011)

ohiofarmgirl said:
			
		

> i'm guessing its going to be a fight to get this down the goaties so i'm bringing a professional - the 4H neighbor kid.
> 
> ;-)


Send him to my place when he's done!  LOL


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## Our7Wonders (May 18, 2011)

I'm not very good at cramming things down my goats throat - they get frustrated, I get frustrated and I end up wasting several doses of copasure.

So here is my super easy way of giving it to them:

I open a capsule and eyeball the dose.  For my girls, that works out to be half a copasure capsule each.  I pour some molassess into a bowl, dump the copasure onto the molasses.  With a glass of warm water I take it out to the goats - pour a little of the water on the molasses/copasure pile and let the goatie slurp it up.  The rods will sink to the bottom, so I pour a little more water - and continue until they've slurped it all up.  I bring the bottle of molasses with me too, because they may not get each little rod before I run out of the molasses water mixture.    Neither of my girls made any attempt to chew the little rods - they went right down with the mix.  And because I use a bowl I can easily see whether there are any little rods left.

Anyway, that's my easy, peasy way that works for me.

Good luck!


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## ohiofarmgirl (May 18, 2011)

perf! sounds great! 

i have one goatie who loves to 'drive' stuff form one of those large barrel syringes. wonder if i could suck up the rods into it?

i have a feeling its gonna take a couple tries but we'll get 'er done. 

hi Hobby Farms!


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## 20kidsonhill (May 18, 2011)

Someone on here mixes it with yogurt and gives it that way.


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## whetzelmomma (May 20, 2011)

Are you against bolusing that actual ACT? Because if that's all you're trying to avoid, I suggest following the instructions here: http://www.goatspots.com/copper.html

I give bolus this way, in addition to my minerals. I've been reading that the copper in most mineral supplements is copper sulfide, and sulfer can inhibit the absorption of other minerals, and can also have risks of overdosing copper. Copper OXIDE however (the kind in copasure) is safer, and non inhibiting.


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## RockyToggRanch (Jun 17, 2011)

This explains why I waited so long for my order of copasure to come in. It was back ordered for ever. I'll try the marshmallow method on the girls this weekend. 

Should the kids also be treated?


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## Ariel301 (Jun 18, 2011)

It seems like a LOT of people are seeing some severe mineral deficiencies this year, more so than I've heard of before. My herd was doing pretty good until this winter, and they all started to look awful because I couldn't get good hay for about six months and was feeding cow-quality grass hay. I started my goats on Purina Goat Mineral about a month ago, both free choice in their pen, and a quarter ounce top dressed on each milking doe's feed twice a day. It's way more than the bag said to feed them, but I'm already seeing a drastic difference, even my doe that has been chronically thin for years has picked up 10 pounds since I started them on it. I had previously drenched them twice with copper sulfate and seen no results. 

So, for my herd, the loose mineral seems to be enough (as long as it's a good one--the loose one I was using before didn't cut it.) I am absolutely convinced part of the problem (if not all of it) is that our hay and grain is becoming less nutritious (just like our vegetables and fruits are doing) because the soil they are grown in is getting very depleted and not fed the things it needs, not to mention all the chemicals sprayed on it, and genetically  modified grains. Modified soy and corn have both been shown in the laboratory to cause fertility issues and high cancer rates in rats, so it's no wonder we're starting to see some serious problems with our livestock which are eating that same garbage. :/


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