# Goat: SNAKEBITE  (Copperhead~updated)  (It's Socrates)



## redtailgal

******If you have this emergency right now please do the following immediately, then return to read the rest*****

You may or may not see the actual bite, they will swell shut quickly, often no blood will be seen.  

You will notice extreme pain in the general area and swelling......you can WATCH it swell.

IMMEDIATELY ice the area (I used a bag of frozen green peas).  10 minutes on/ 10 minutes off.  Use a water hose if you have to, but cool the area down.  They may scream, you may cry.  Do it anyway.  You'll need to do this for several hours, be ready for the long haul.

Medicate: Banamine at 1 cc per 100 pounds.  if you dont have Banamine, you can use Children's Benedryl as the dosage (by weight not age) on the package.

Your goat (or any critter with snakebite) will need CLEAN water at all times, and COLD water would be wonderful.  Change it alot, clean buckets add ice......CLEAN COLD WATER.  helps with the swelling.

In between ice sessions, call your vet for recommendations.  If you live in an area where anti-venom is available, be prepared its VERY costly.  

Most animals will survive with only the treatments above, many will survive with no treatment.  Socrates had a secondary reaction which complicated things.  

*Do the above things and read the rest later.*





4.00 pm (original post)

About an hour ago, Socrates came running to the barn shaking his head violently and foaming at the mouth.  Then he started swelling.  You could WATCH him swell.

Both sides of the jaw, and about halfway down the neck.  The bite wound itself is swollen shut, so I can't clean it.  He is able to eat and drink.  The swelling has stopped, and went down a little with cold compression.

I am treating with Banamine for pain and swelling.  Plenty of COLD COLD water, and plan to ice the site hourly.  I will also be monitoring for a fever as hour.

I'll be picking up some hay stretcher and/or alfalfa pellets as its pretty hard for him to eat hay (it hurts).

I have pen-g here, and will give it if I see signs of an infection starting.

Any other suggestions?

*I will not do a  preemptive strike with antibiotics......I dont give them as prevention.

10.15 pm (update)

I gave bendryl and called Doc.  He was on his way to look at this mare anyway, so he kicked it up a notch and risked a speeding ticket.  GOOD THING HE DID.

After icing him down, it looked like the swelling was going down, but after doc got here Socrates had a secondary reaction with added swelling.  His eye were swollen shut, and his mouth swollen open.  The tips of his ears looked like they would explode.

We found a bite in between the jaw bones, under the chin, and a second one on his tongue.  Yes, his freaking TONGUE.  We think the snake struck again when he screamed from the first bite.

He went into agonal breathing, was using accesory muscles, the whole works.  We turned the water hose on him, dosed him hard with fast acting steroids and antihistamines, and put in a port to give solid access in case his heart stopped, so we could give epi.

I also had Doc draw up the Euthanol, just in case.

Took him a while of good HARD work to get a breath in, but the swelling went down and he started screaming again, only this time it was because he was ANGRY, lol.  He was REALLY ticked at us, but too weak to do much about it.

Once We felt he was stable, I saddlebagged him some fluids.  I chose to saddlebag so that he would have a slow release of electrolytes for several hours, rather than getting them all at once in an IV and pee them right back out.

Then I had to run an errand, and left him in the care of my hubby.

I just returned to find a very angry goat, who would have NOTHING to do with me, but was CHEWING his cud!  

Long term treatment:

Continued ice therapy until the swelling is gone. 

Final dose of Banamine tomorrow evening.

Supplement with grain.........its very hard for him to eat hay right now, so I"ll get some hay stretcher pellets for him.

Doc wants him monitored closely for a worm bloom. This happens alot with cattle, snake bite puts such a stress on the body, there is often a worm bloom afterwards.

NO antibiotics right now.  We will wait to see signs of infection.  I dont do preventative antibiotics.  He will be closely monitored for fever and started on Pen-G at the first sign of infection.

Daily probios for awhile.  Snakebite really works a number on the digestive tract, not to mention the stress and genuine TERROR that he felt from the way we had to handle him.  He is high risk for bloat, worms, etc right now (another reason to hold off on the antibiotics)

Plenty of rest, and quiet.  

What happened was a secondary reaction.  Venom is venomous because people are allergic to it.......the reaction is basically an allergic reaction. Socrates has a HIGH sensitivity to it, so we will be keeping Epi in the barn at all times.  It MAY help the next time or it may not.

So, right now, things are ok.  I am worried about infection and an abcess forming.  I'll treat that when it happens, gotta get him thru this first.  With the reaction that he had, the main concern is that his gut doesnt shut down.  The fact that he was chewing cud was a very very good sign.



2.14 am

went out for a recheck.  he is trying to swell up a little more, so I ice him up again.  (He really is starting to hate the site of frozen peas).  seems well enough, is chewing cud.  I'm going to bed.


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## SmallFarmGirl

I have no idea how to help you, but I hope someone else can! HOW terrible!


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## Roll farms

Sorry, kiddo, snakebite is one thing I've got no experience treating.....

Would benadryl help at all?


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## redtailgal

Just gave benedryl, lol.

Its so strange, it LOOKS just like bottlejaw, but it hurts him to have it touched and the swelling was so terribly quick.  I WATCHED him swell.

Doc is on his way.  I'll have pics of his jaws later.

gotta go ice the goat


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## daisychick

Any way it is a poisonous snake (not sure what kind you have there)  ???   My dog got bit by a rattler and her face swelled up right before my eyes.   Anti-venom cured it really fast.   If it's not a poisonous bite then I would say what you are doing is good.   Benadryl might be a good idea.


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## BarredRockMomma

and praying for my favorite silly goat 

I only know how to treat them in people sorry.


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## terrilhb

I have just been reading a book call Natural Goat Care by Pat Coleby. In it she says to give 15 cc's of Vitamin C intramuscularly in the side of the neck and repeat in 2 hours if necessary. I recieved this bbok from the woman I bought my does from. I hope Socrates gets better really quick. I am sorry this happened. I do not know if this works. She says it does. Also she says if you locate the bite to rub some sodium ascorbate powder well into the bite as this effectively stops the pain which can be considerable. And to keep the goat quiet and and it's feet eating well. I hope this helps some.


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## redtailgal

It was a copperhead.  Venom, yes.  Usually not fatal, but very very painful.

The anti-venom is not available to livestock here. (we have ALOT of copperheads, and not much anti-venom, so it's reserved for people).

He is resting.  Poor guy........if his ears tough the side of his face it hurts.  The pain should subside by tomorrow, but we have to manage the swelling so that it wont cut off his airway.  Icing it down seems to be helping alot with the swelling.  

Doc is with him now, but he told me to leave.  Socrates want ME not doc, lol.

NEVER a dull moment.

What is the vit c supposed to do?  Any other tips to help with swelling?


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*I don't know if this applies to goats but I know vitamin K shots help because snake venom makes the blood thinner and not clot.*


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## redtailgal

He is having a secondary release and reaction.

His eyes are swollen shut, as is his nose.  On his side and mouth breathing.

I wont be on for awhile.  I've got to hold him up, and apply ice, while doc  runs some fast acting steroids and makes a port for epi.

Please pray


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*


He needs antivenin if they have it for goats!*


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## elevan

Benedryl would have been my only helpful advise.  I'm praying for the best outcome!


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## DonnaBelle

He will need antibiotics and other meds.  Snake bite may not kill him but infection will set in.  Call the vet and take him in if you can.

DonnaBelle


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## ThreeBoysChicks

DonnaBelle said:
			
		

> He will need antibiotics and other meds.  Snake bite may not kill him but infection will set in.  Call the vet and take him in if you can.
> 
> DonnaBelle


I believe the vet is there already.


RTG - Sending prayers your way for that silly goat.   Silly or not, he does not deserve this.


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## terrilhb

It does not say what it does. Just that she has used it successfully. Also she gives Vitamin A and D. She lives in Australia. I put Socrates on a site I belong to for prayers and you too.


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## autumnprairie

SOCRATES YOU BETTER BE OK BUD or RTG is going to be really upset with you.
 sending prayers your way I hope you and Socrates are ok really


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## marlowmanor

Waiting on an update about Socrates. Hopefully all is well with you and him.


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## SmallFarmGirl

prayers sent... Let's hope this funny boy makes it!


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## marlowmanor

Here's some info I found when I googles "treating snakebite in goats"
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/snakebite.html
From that link here is the treatment info they give.


> Snakebite from any snake can be life threatening to a goat. Do not worry about the kind of snake that did the biting. Treat every snakebite as if it came from the most poisonous of snakes. Find the bite(s) and clean them thoroughly with a disinfecting solution such as Betadine Surgical Scrub. Do NOT apply a tourniquet. Medicate as follows, based up a 100 pound animal (adjust upwards or downwards based on goat's body weight):
> 
> 1) Give 8 cc Dexamethazone IM on the first day. Follow with 5 cc Dexamethazone on days Two through Five. "Dex" is available through veterinarians and costs about $10.00 for a 100 ml bottle.
> 
> Do NOT use "Dex" indiscriminately. It can be a very dangerous drug. A goat must be "weaned" off it rather than taken off cold turkey.
> 
> 2) Administer 40 cc of Benadryl (each 5 ml contains 12.5% Diphenhydramine HCl ) every twelve hours for four dosages. WalMart's Equate brand is called "Diphedryl Allergy."
> 
> 3) Inject 8 cc of long-acting Benzathine pencillin IM daily for seven days. Do not discontinue these injections before th seven days has passed.
> 
> 4) Give the goat lots of fluids, preferably ReSorb or other electrolytes to flush as much toxin from the body as quickly as possible and reduce fever. Don't be alarmed if soft feces occurs. See my article on Diarrhea which states that diarrhea is a symptom of other problems and a way for the body to rid itself of toxins.
> 
> 5) Green leaves, fresh grass hay, and even some legume hays are desirable. The snake-bitten goat is not likely to eat grain.
> 
> 6) Do NOT bandage the bite(s). Leave them open so drainage can occur. If the tissue begins to die, apply Trypzyme Spray (vet prescription) to help slough off necrotic (dead) tissue.
> 
> Head bites are much less severe, as there is less blood supply to carry the venom to the rest of the body. Leg and body bites result in lots of swelling. Swelling will spread over the body for several days as the bloodstream disburses the toxin. A snakebite above the hoof will cause swelling to occur up the leg and across the chest.
> 
> If a veterinarian is available, he/she might also give the goat an IV solution of 10 cc of DMSO diluted in 60 cc Sterile Saline Solution. However, this writer does NOT recommend that the typical goat producer do this. IV administration of medications is, in my opinion, best left to professionals.
> 
> If the goat survives the first few hours, he/she is likely to survive the snakebite.


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## daisychick

Really really hoping everything is ok!


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## PattySh

How terrible. You acted real fast tho getting the vet there asap. I sure hope he makes it. FINGERS CROSSED!!!!!


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## PattySh

How terrible. You acted real fast tho getting the vet there asap. I sure hope he makes it. FINGERS CROSSED!!!!!


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## HankTheTank




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## Roll farms




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## terrilhb




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## DonnaBelle

I missed where she said the "doc" was on the way.  

I know she is "crazy" about that goat, I'm praying for his swift recovery.  Two of our bird dogs have been bitten by copperheads around the throat area and survived.  The first time it happened I was sure I had a dead Brittany on my hands.  Our vet said that if it had been a rattlesnake she wouldn't have made it.

Come on Socrates, RTG loves you, get better.

DonnaBelle


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## ILuvSheep

Socrates if you don't make it your gonna be in trouble... Your gonna get a time out 

                       Come on Socrates, pull through, everyone here knows you can, don't let them down


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## redtailgal

Socrates is alive and well.    Boy is too stubborn to die, lol.

I'll give the full story on the post number 1 of this thread to make it easier for anyone with this sort of emergency in the future.


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## marlowmanor

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Socrates is alive and well.    Boy is too stubborn to die, lol.
> 
> I'll give the full story on the post number 1 of this thread to make it easier for anyone with this sort of emergency in the future.


 Glad to here he is a stubborn head and is alive and well.  I posted what I found on a google search earlier about treating snakebites in goats for you. I even saved it to my computer so I have it for reference myself later if I ever need it. Hopefully he makes a full recovery.  Hugs for you RTG!


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## ILuvSheep

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Socrates is alive and well.    Boy is too stubborn to die, lol.
> 
> I'll give the full story on the post number 1 of this thread to make it easier for anyone with this sort of emergency in the future.


Woot!!! Go socrates, glad is well !! See, being stubborn is good!!

   :bun       !


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## elevan




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## autumnprairie

elevan said:
			
		

>


X2


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## redtailgal

OK I've got the update in the first post now


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## BarredRockMomma




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## bonbean01

Whew!!!!  So glad he is going to be okay....geesh Red...first day you are up and around and this happens????  Never a dull moment, eh?

We have copperheads here, so your info is super great to me should this ever happen.

Saturday we had a snake after our chicken who is brooding eggs and the rest of them freaked out and broke through...except one who died trying 

Hubby blasted that snake and killed it...two good sized hole in the shed now...but dead snake, got the chickens that escaped back in on lock down...buried the sweet young hen...and grateful we only lost one...I hate snakes!!!!!

Looked online an it wasn't a copperhead or water snake (we have a pond)...no idea yet...now I realize a sheep could be bitten...so glad you shared this!!!!

Hope your mare and poor bitten goatie let you sleep tonight!!!!  Good job on doing the right thing right away!!!!


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## PattySh

So glad to hear he's ok.


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## redtailgal

2.14 am

went out for a recheck.  he is trying to swell up a little more, so I ice him up again.  (He really is starting to hate the site of frozen peas).  seems well enough, is chewing cud.  I'm going to bed.


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## Roll farms

*big sigh of relief*


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## terrilhb

I am so happy to hear the news. Everyone is right being stubborn is a great thing.


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## redtailgal

any further updates will be on my journal.


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## Godsgrl

I just have to add here, something I learned in snakebite class a few years back. *NEVER ICE A SNAKEBITE* Somehow, it can react with the venom, and cause loss of tissue. This is the first thing the instructors taught us, and what they impressed on us the most.* NO ICE* Fluids (IV) keep the victim quiet, and emergency care, but no ice. This applies to humans and animals. Glad Socrates is okay.


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## redtailgal

Godsgrl said:
			
		

> I just have to add here, something I learned in snakebite class a few years back. *NEVER ICE A SNAKEBITE* Somehow, it can react with the venom, and cause loss of tissue. This is the first thing the instructors taught us, and what they impressed on us the most.* NO ICE* Fluids (IV) keep the victim quiet, and emergency care, but no ice. This applies to humans and animals. Glad Socrates is okay.


One thing to remember here is that Socrates had a secondary reaction........not just snakebite, but an analytically allergic reaction to the snakebite.  Cold is often a treatment for this as it lessen the bodies need for oxygen, causes bronchial tubes to dilate, and lowers the rising body temp as they struggle to breath.

Ice doesnt really react with the venom, but it can expedite the degenerate of already damaged tissue in some cases.  It can also inhibit the absorption of anti-venom, but since I could not use anti-venom on a goat, this was of no concern.  In a dire emergency, I'd rather have loss of tissue that I can possily heal than a dead animal to bury.

In this case, ice was needed.  His was swelling enough that it was cutting off the airway, and that had to be slowed down long enough for the meds to work.  The ice did slow down and even reverse the swelling enough to keep him from asphyxiating. 

Anyway, he is doing good.  I saddle bagged him for what I think will be the last time, gave him another shot of steroid, b complex, the last dose of redcell (he is pinking back up) and some probios.  He's lost an amazing amount of weight in 24 hours.

edited to add: I meant to also thank Godsgrl for adding that information.  She is right, if the swelling is not life threatening and one intends to use anti-venom, it's best to not ice.


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## redtailgal

I know I said I'd update in my journal, but I thought this would be beneficial to anyone doing a search on snakebite.

I just walked down to the barn to marinade the goat in some more frozen peas, and look who came out to greet me!







I didnt get any pics during the worst of it, I was just too busy.  But if you'll look closely, you'll see a "Pooch" hanging, almost like a jowl on his neck.  This is stretched out skin from where he was so badly swollen yesterday.  There is still some swelling in his eyes, and one side of his jaw is pretty badly swollen and one nostril is still swollen shut.  This was a little more than 24 hours after the bite, and after ALOT of medication and work to bring down the swelling.  He is drinking plenty, the thirst has set in (good thing!) and is starting to eat a little.  His poop is runny, but not horribly so.  No fever, no heat in the swollen area.  You can see in his eyes that he just doesnt feel good, poor guy.  It's still pretty painful.  The inside of his mouth is still pretty swollen, and bruised.  It's very painful to him, so I didn't have the heart to hold his mouth open for a pic.

Doc was back out today, after seeing the foal he came over to check him out and felt confident that we were out of the woods.   So, tomorrow, I'll start some mild moist heat therapy to bring in added bloodflow to the area in an attempt to prevent any more permanent damage.  I'll also start giving him small amounts of grain to prevent any more loss of condition.  He's lost ALOT in just two days...........6 pounds!!!!  

the pics:


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## DonnaBelle

I can see in his eyes he just doesn't feel well at all!!

He looks like he's been on a three day drunk, but didn't get to taste anything good!!

Poor goat!!  I hope he'll be feeling better soon. 

Good job, RTG. And you have a great vet for coming right out.  I shudder to think of your coming vet bill.

DonnaBelle


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## redtailgal

Well, donnabelle, that's where Socrates and I are so lucky.

I work with this vet (and have for over 20 years), and only got charged at cost.  60 bucks.  Thats all.  I love my vet.  I am VERY fortunate.

edited for spelling


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## Mamaboid

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I work with this vet (and have for over 20 years), and only got charged at cost.  60 bucks.  Thats all.  I love my vet.  I am VERY fortunate.
> 
> edited for spelling


So THAT is what they mean when they say "Hard work is it's own reward". 

Seriously though, SO glad your boy is OK.  I was going to take a nap after being at the hospital all night with my Sis, and thought I will read a couple journals first, went to yours and couldn't believe it.  We have copperheads here, so your information is good to have, just so sorry it came at Socrates' expense.  You can see in his eyes he would 'just like to rest now, thank you mommy'.  Here is a  for you, and one  for him too!


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## Queen Mum

I am really glad you posted this information.  I just moved to an area with these kinds of snakes and wouldn't have known the first thing about how to treat a snakebite for my goats.  I will read and print this article.  THANKS RTG.


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