# Cocci? Entro? Worms? Help!?!



## Lenhart (Mar 21, 2011)

I recently got 2 goat kids (Nubian Buck, French Alpine doe) Just for pets we were going to get him banded soon.  The ages are not exact but the lady said around a week old.  I've had them for about a week and half, my doe is doing great- she is very alert and pretty healthy, my buck on the other hand is doing HORRIBLE.  He was alright at first, but now hes just getting worse each day.  He arches his back and huddles alone in the corner, he will fall down, he's very week and he drags his back feet, can barely walk, his gums are pail, crusty eyes, bloated stomach, he grinds his teeth, very bad direaha/scurs.  I've never had goats before and it's hard to find information, I do not know what to do I feel like hes going to die.  Does anyone know what he has?  What can I do for treatment? I need help ASAP. Thank you. 

I've been wiping his face and trying to keep his back legs clean but its hard.


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## savingdogs (Mar 21, 2011)

Someone more expert will probably answer you, but I'm wondering looking at your post if you might want to get something to stop the scouring from the feed store right away to put into his bottle. What are you feeding him? It might be helpful to let people know so they can help you better.


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## Lenhart (Mar 21, 2011)

I am feeding him and her both whole milk I have been switching them on different things which isn't great I know now that I read but isince yesterday I have put a half a teaspoon of molasses in their bottles to help withj the scours and I've put some oat milk in their to give protien for him because he's so weak this has been since the past few days to try and help though I was just feeding them whole milk with some water mixed in


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## Roll farms (Mar 21, 2011)

What are you feeding him?

If it's replacer, once he's stopped scouring, you might consider a change to whole vitamin D milk from the store.

I would probably switch to feeding him this
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/revitilyte-gelling-3.5-oz-pouch/camid/LIV/cp/VP-R3/
(also available at TSC) 
until he stops scouring.  The gelling action will firm him up.

I wouldn't think at 2.5 wks they'd have worms or cocci (possible, but not likely) bad enough yet to cause his symptoms.  I'm guessing it's something bacterial.

If he were here, I'd mix a tsp of baking soda w/a dab of warm water and squirt that down his throat, to help w/ the bloating / upset tummy.

I would give him Scour Halt or Neomycin Sulfate (farm stores have it) 2x a day ASAP.  
Give it on an empty stomach the 1st time so it can 'work'.

Give him a fingertip amt. of Probios morning and night for a few days.
Feed him the gelling stuff 3-4 x a day.
Give him a B vitamin shot (2cc 1x a day for 3 days).

That's just the beginning, but it's what I'd start with if you don't have access to a vet.

Good luck with him, I hope he improves for you!


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## Roll farms (Mar 21, 2011)

FWIW, I've raised a goobermillion baby goats, and every one on Vita D milk when I didn't have enough goat milk to go around...no additives.

Diet changes are the devil w/ baby goats.


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## Lenhart (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you so much for the info it was big help I'm gonna go to the farmers market tomorrow as soon as possible and try and get him what he needs the baking soda isa good idea I will try it in the morning. should I continue to feed him what I fed him yesterday and today tomorrow after the baking soda? I am so worried as to if he will make it through the night we xhecked on hin earlier and he could not get up he was crawling to us on his knees..


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## helmstead (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh, dear, that is one sick baby.  I would bet a bacterial scour like e.coli or salmonella...SMZ-TMP is my drug of choice for that...but at this late stage, might be too late.

Best of luck...so sorry!


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 21, 2011)

He sounds very sick indeed.  Do you have baking soda in your cupboard?  I would start with that NOW - even if it means a trip out to the grocery store tonight.  I think I've seen it suggested on here at 1-2 tsp mixxed with a little water and drenched.  I'm thinking he needs intervention right away if he's to make it.  He's likely to need an antibiotic started ASAP.

I don't really know alot about oat milk nutritionally for a goat.  I know it's NOT a dairy product - and goats need dairy products.  I wouldn't continue to feed it to him at all.  I'm sure someone on here can advise how you work back into whole milk.  I wouldn't slam a whole lot into him at once though. 

Perhaps BoSe as well for his legs too.


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## Lenhart (Mar 21, 2011)

I am going to feed both of them the baking soda mixture right now.  My doe is starting to get t he scours off and on. Does the mixyture need to be watery or thick or?


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## PattySh (Mar 22, 2011)

about a tsp each baking soda mixed with enough warm water to be able to squirt it in their mouths. I had good luck with neomycin sulfate with sick baby goats with wicked diarrea last year. I also fed my babies pedialyte in between their bottles because they were pretty dehyrated and he looks like he is too.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

Gave them the baking soda, I am going to the feed store tomorrow to get an electrolyte formula maybe an anti-biotic? I was reading about E Coli here: http://goat-link.com/content/view/187/28/  I think it's what he has.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

I really don't think hes gonna make it..... went out there to check up on him and he was just laying down on his side- thought he was dead.  I didnt want them to just be out there so i put some towels in the bathroom and put them in there with me for the night


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## Roll farms (Mar 22, 2011)

Unfortunately, when baby goats get sick, they can go from 'sick' to 'gone' pretty fast.  If he's still alive in the morning, try and get the bacterial meds ASAP...but it may be too late.  I'm sorry.

Scour Halt / Neomycin Sulfate is something I keep on hand and give to any kid less than 3 wks of age who scours.

If they're over 3 weeks, they've usually built some immunity to e coli by then and I assume it's cocci and treat with DiMethox.



> should I continue to feed him what I fed him yesterday and today tomorrow after the baking soda?


NO, in my opinion...use some form of electrolyte mix (even gatoraide or pedialyte is better than milk when they're scouring.)  I like the gelling stuff I gave you a link to b/c it will *also* help stop the scours.

Until he's stopped scouring, I wouldn't give him milk.

When you do get him back on milk, don't add anything to it.  Milk is all they need.

I hope it's not too late for him, and if it is, I'm sorry...but now you'll know for future reference.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you all so much... I spent half the night sleeping in the bathroom with them.  To my surprise he is sill here!! Last night I swore he was blind though.. He wouldn't look at me, when i'd move my hand he'd not follow it- he just seemed out of it.  But this morning I went back in there and he was alot more alert than he was last night.  We gave them both a little more of baking soda mixture- they hate it.  We are on our way to the farmers market in a few.


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## jodief100 (Mar 22, 2011)

Now get some electrolytes and Scour Halt into that baby and maybe he is going to make it!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

Im glad he's doing better today...dont take this the wrong way..but changing feed that quickly on them will definately cause huge issues for them and potentially kill them.  Sorry to be harsh..Im not trying to be mean but helpful, since its your first time round with baby goats.  And for future referance..molasses can cause scours sometimes.  It is recomended to use a small amount when trying to get them to eat medicines or get some baking soda in. It will give them a small energy boost too like corn syrup etc.

I have included a site that explains a ruminants digestive system.  Goats have a completely differant digestive system than humans.  So the tried and true stuff we may use on us human could potentially kill a goat.  So its important you stick to basics ongoats nutition.  Whole milk (cows milk from the store) Hay and goat specific grain when ready.  I generally will introduce hay and grain around 3 wks..they are still nursing but I want them to start learning to eat on thier own and get some hay in that rumen to start the pot brewing.  

http://www.extension.org/pages/19363/goat-nutrition-gi-tract

I hope this site helps...Storeys Guide to Goats is a really good book.  I highly recomend you start getting information about ruminents and their nurtition needs.  Its a crucial part of a ruminants health...really important.

Roll made some excellant recomendations for treatment!  I second that information.   And I hope they get better real soon for you!! 

Best of luck...Please dont hesitate to ask questions...we all started somewhere and these suggestions come from expirence..we dont want to see other people make the same mistakes we did!!


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you.  We went to the farmers market and there was a lady costumer there who was having a similar problem with her goats and helped us out quite a bit!  I got "Bounce Back"  a multi-species electrolyte supplement it has "Goat kid"  Formulas on there.  We also got "Probios" I HOPE these work!


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 22, 2011)

Those will both be helpful for you *if* you can get to the underlying cause.  Neither of those are going to deal with a bacterial issue.  There were some suggestions on which type of antibiotic to use given above, perhaps you can find one locally?  

I think with his symptoms it's more than just tummy issues or dehydration.  The two items you mention are not going to help with bacteria,  they are basically like pedialyte and probiotics - which are great to help mend, but the cause needs to be dealt with.  I think he likely needs meds for a bacteria.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

I was thinking about the antibiotics when I was there.. should have picked one. But well they are actually doing better, their bellies are not near as swollen/bloated.  His poo is not all watery, it is getting thicker and darker in color, her's also. He's been trying to get up more.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah, I second the motion for antibiotics..  He seems young to have coccidia or some type of intestinal parasite, and the only other things that would really cause that would be either bacterial enteritis or dietary changes...but the dietary changes didn't start till *after* the scour.

Having said that, get him on antibiotics ASAP...  Like, about 5ml of either scour-halt/scourchek, or neomycin sulfate by mouth..  Wouldn't take but just a second to shoot that down his throat, yanno..  And both are fairly cheap and readily available over the counter.

Think about this...  If you had a child with food poisoning -- true food poisoning from tainted food, not "mommy my tummy hurts" because they ate too much ice cream -- would you A) take them to the doctor so they could get medical attention, or B) feed them active culture yogurt and gatorade?

The oral antibiotics everyone's suggesting are examples of *real* medical attention..  

Probios and bounce back are supportive, like gatorade and active culture yogurt..

Which, btw folks...active culture yogurt and 'probiotic' foods for humans, when you think about it, are geared toward *causing* a person to go poo...not stopping runaway poo..  Think about it.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

Lenhart said:
			
		

> I was thinking about the antibiotics when I was there.. should have picked one. But well they are actually doing better, their bellies are not near as swollen/bloated.  His poo is not all watery, it is getting thicker and darker in color, her's also. He's been trying to get up more.


So he had light colored, watery diarrhea......  Sounds very much like bacterial enteritis to me.  

Mmmmkay, it's time to go get in your car, drive somewhere, and buy some oral antibiotics.  He may seem to be be doing better now, but he could be doing worse in an hour and dead by this evening.  You don't have time to get this on your next trip out..

Trust me on this.  I had to dig a big ol' hole and chuck a really nice, really dead yearling doe in it on account of bacterial enteritis once, and it was because I didn't do enough, and what I did do, I didn't do fast enough.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

The antibiotics are a must and immediately.  Supportive care is also a must in that it can keep them alive long enough for the antibiotics to work, but it's not a substitute.  Still, I wouldn't downplay the importance of good supportive care... especially hydration.


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## helmstead (Mar 22, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Which, btw folks...active culture yogurt and 'probiotic' foods for humans, when you think about it, are geared toward *causing* a person to go poo...not stopping runaway poo..  Think about it.


All good advice from cmjust0 - and this comment made me smile 

I sure hope you get the babies on track.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Still, I wouldn't downplay the importance of good supportive care... especially hydration.


That's an excellent point..  I actually thought about recommending a trip to the OP's vet for a few bags of lactated ringers for parenteral hydration just so they didn't have to continually introduce new and exciting things into an already compromised tummy, but...well...suffice it to say that at this point, I'll settle for getting readily available, cheap, easily-administered OTC antibiotics in it.  Baby steps.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

I specifically asked for Scour Halt when i was there and they did not have it.  The farmers market is not close by at all so it's hard to go right back out there without the family being alright with it, everyone saying "He's going to die anyways"  I feel horrible right now, in tears. But I'm going to get some kind of antibiotic.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
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Totally- the antibiotics are sorta a non-neogtiable at this point.  And the lactated ringers is a great idea.  It is just so important to keep them well hydrated and for a sick goat SQ is my method of choice.

I almost lost one of my bucks a couple months ago to a nasty, nasty case of bacterial scours and the SMZ-TMP along with supportive care saved his life.  SMZ is rX, so if you absolutely can't get your vet involved I'd start hitting him with the neomycin ASAP.  If he didn't start improving within 24 hours I'd call the vet about the SMZ-TMP.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

they don't have goat anti-botics can tetracycline for pigs work well?


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## helmstead (Mar 22, 2011)

No, it really doesn't treat bacterial scours well.  These aren't goat specific products - actually they wont be labeled for goats.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

Lenhart said:
			
		

> they don't have goat anti-botics can tetracycline for pigs work well?


I dont think you can use tetracyline on kids under 6 months old???  So I dont think so??  But maybe someone else will chime in.   I would keep up with the baking soda.  Hold off on milk...just get the electrolytes in him.   Im sorry he's not doing well again.. 

If you have some vitamin B injectable I would give him some.  I would check his tempature to.  Should be above 100.  If below, thats not good..you must warm him.

  Hope he pulls through for you.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

Lenhart said:
			
		

> I specifically asked for Scour Halt when i was there and they did not have it.  The farmers market is not close by at all so it's hard to go right back out there without the family being alright with it, everyone saying "He's going to die anyways"  I feel horrible right now, in tears. But I'm going to get some kind of antibiotic.


Ok, well, if you asked for Scour Halt and they didn't have it, then there's no need to feel horrible or be in tears..  You're doing what you can!  I didn't realize you were *trying* to get him antibiotics, nor do I think anyone else did..

Something to remember -- FOR ALL OF US -- is that *oral spectinomycin* goes by two names now.  You can still get good ol' Scour-Halt in some places, but in other places, it's called Scour-Chek...same stuff, same strength.  The difference is that Scour-Halt may be manufactured by AgriLabs...or AmTech...or even Durvet...while Scour-Chek is made by SpectoGard.  It's weird, I know, but....anyway.

It's *possible* that the person working the farm store had Scour-Chek but didn't know was the same stuff, and so when they didn't have name-brand Scour Halt...well, that's where their "expertise" ran out.  More ridiculous things have happened..  So if they have ScourChek, get it.  

If not, shoot for Oral Neomycin..  

And if they don't have that, I'd probably look into getting some soluble tetracycline or something...anything.  You're in uncharted territory for goats with oral soluble tetracycline, as there's not much info about its use in goats, but I'd do it in a heartbeat if that's all I *could* do..

But just so ya know, _we're all rooting for ya here!_


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Lenhart said:
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I believe you can use it on an animal at any age, the issue is that it's counteracted by milk.  Go figure!  I don't think it would be the best option for GI issues anyway.


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## cmjust0 (Mar 22, 2011)

from a page on terramycin scour tabs said:
			
		

> INDICATIONS: Terramycin Scours Tablets are recommended for oral administration for the control and treatment of the following diseases in beef and dairy *calves* caused by organisms sensitive to oxytetracycline: bacterial enteritis caused by *Salmonella typhimurium and Escherichia coli (colibacillosis)* and bacterial pneumonia (shipping fever complex, pasteurellosis) caused by Pasteurella multocida.


Calves drink milk, too, right?  And it's indicated for salmonella and e.coli...  And they're ruminants like goats..

So, like I said -- if some concocation of oral tetracycline is what you can get your hands on, then USE IT.  It's better than nothing.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks...I was just checking on that..and it stated "Dont use on pregnant does or kids under 6 months old because of bone and teeth formation"

So I guess in an er..I may use it???  But as Kate stated its not even gonna help the bacteria in the gut.  

Im wondering if there is a vet close or an er place she could get the proper antibiotic from???


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> from a page on terramycin scour tabs said:
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I agree...I would probally give it a try???  It is definately better than nothing!  Good find CM!!!    Its worth a shot!!


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

The farmers market does not have any goat anti-biotics, I bought the two things the man and woman who's vet recommended they should buy for their goat who has pneumonia.  Called the mini-pet mart, they don't have anything.  Called the vet and they "don't know if they carry it" we can't afford to bring him to a vet, not even knowing if they will help him.  I'm just going to see what happens, hopefully this will do something for him..


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 22, 2011)

You don't have a feed co-op or a Tractor Supply Store by you?


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

We have Amoxicillin 500mg for people can he take a very small portion/dose of that?


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> You don't have a feed co-op or a Tractor Supply Store by you?


The Grange Co-op is where we went twice.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 22, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> from a page on terramycin scour tabs said:
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I agree- it's better than nothing if it's all you can get.  I don't have it in front of me, but the Tetracycline HCI I have (labeled for use in turkeys, chickens, calves, etc.) indicates on the label to dose something like 3 hours before feeding milk because the interaction inhibits effectiveness.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 22, 2011)

This may not be helpful - but you're not looking for a *goat* antibiotic specifically.  If that's what you're asking for, perhaps that may be the reasong you're coming up empty.  

Here's a thought, and i don't know what the shipping expenses would be and whether you can swing it or not - but you can overnight ship the recommended meds from any of the online livestock stores:  ValleyVet, Jeffers, PBS Animal Supply.  It might be spendy to do so, but would still be less than a vet trip.  Along with it you could order needles, syringes, etc.  I'm sure someone on here can get you an exact shopping list if you decided to go that route.

But I'd get on the horn to every feed store within driving distance and ask if they have them.  I'm on the west coast though, so you might not have any open at this time.  If he makes it through the night then perhaps a call first thing in the morning to every place you can think of and if not, an overnight shipment might be worth a try.


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## Lenhart (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd like to thank all of you for your help... He passed away about an hour ago... Broke my heart.  He stopped breathing twice, the third time he finally was gone.  Could barely look him in the eyes, but I felt the need to be there to comfort him. I tried but it just wasn't enough...  My little girl is also heartbroken now that she is alone.  I hope she is going to be alright. 

some pictures of him before he stated to get sick:


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## helmstead (Mar 22, 2011)




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## ksalvagno (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm so sorry. I hope you can find a buddy for your little girl.


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 22, 2011)

I am so very sorry for your loss.


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## Roll farms (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm sorry you lost him. 

For future reference, if you plan on getting more, you can order scour meds from places like Jeffers Livestock Supply and Valley Vet ahead of time and keep it on hand.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Mar 23, 2011)

Sorry for your loss.

You mentioned in one of the posts that your doe had started scouring... how is she doing?  Like Roll said, I would go ahead and order the supplies you need.  That way if she starts to get sick you already have meds.  The little doe is a cutie.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Mar 23, 2011)

Im sorry for you loss.   

Hope you find a friend for your little girl.  Goats dont do that great alone.  I feel bad she lost her brother    Poor girl.  I hope she does well for you.


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## Lenhart (Mar 23, 2011)

Thank you.  She is still her normal, bubbly, jumpy self but her scours are not good.  It might just be me being paranoid but I feel like shes starting to slowly stand how he started out standing when I got him.  Thank you so much for the suggestion Roll. I'm not sure which to purchase for her, what would you guys recommend?: http://www.jefferslivestock.com/category.asp?camid=LIV&c=3302&c2c=sc


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## cmjust0 (Mar 23, 2011)

First of all...really, really sorry you lost him.  

As for the meds, look at Jeffer's item 49-N1 -- the 1pt bottle of oral neomycin.  That's a good med to have on hand.

And in looking around, it appears that both Jeffers and Valley Vet are out of the smaller bottles of Scour Halt..  There may be a manufacturing issue.  PBS Animal Health appears to have it, though...it's item 37-120.  PBS also has oral neomycin...item 13-142.

I know of one producer that mixes the two on advice from his vet, and his vet is a goat producer..  The idea is that certain strains of bacteria may be more resistant to either neomycin or spectinomycin, and that the two meds mix OK, so you just give both and cover more bases..  I haven't had a reason to do that, but I wouldn't hesitate, and I *do* keep both products in my cabinet.

PBS also has Di-Methox, which is probably something else you'll want to think about soon if you don't have anything yet for preventing coccidia..  They appear to be out of the injectable (which you use orally), but they do have the drinking water solution..  It's not cheap at $40/gal, but you'll be giving just a few MLs at a time, so it'll last forever..

And then there are syringes to be bought, and needles, and you might want to think about getting a broad-spectrum antibiotic beyond PenG (like Bio-Mycin 200, for instance)..  Or any number of other things I can think of that are handy to have around..

That's me, though...  I could spend *hours and hours* looking through vet supply catalogs and websites and never get bored..


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## Our7Wonders (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm not a sales rep for Hoeggers but just wanted to throw it out there.  The 12.5% Di-methox (am I typing that right?) is available by the quart at Hoegger's if you're like me and only have a couple goats and don't necessarily need the whole gallon.  Shipping isn't too bad anymore as they recently restructured their shipping fees.


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## Lenhart (Mar 23, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> First of all...really, really sorry you lost him.
> 
> As for the meds, look at Jeffer's item 49-N1 -- the 1pt bottle of oral neomycin.  That's a good med to have on hand.
> 
> ...


I think I'm going to get the 49-N1 Neomycin Sulfate.  The woman I got them from- I HIGHLY doubt she gave them any vaccines/shots/dewormers/ etc. because they were pretty much just goats for slaughter she had a lot of them, and they were cheap. (We did not get them for slaughter just for family pets) Should I get anything other than the antibiotic for my girl? Vaccines, etc?


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## jodief100 (Mar 23, 2011)

1 pint Neomycin Oral Solution 49-N1 $9.35  for scours
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=16369&cn=3302

Di-Methox Soluble Powder  A2-DA $11.55 for cocci (I use inject able but they dont have any)
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=A2-DA

Bio-Mycin 200  A9-04 $12.99  antibiotic
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/bio-mycin-200/camid/LIV/cp/16295/

CD&T vaccine A9-B7 $6.49  vaccine against common diseases
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=16741&cn=3301

Lure Lock Syringes  I would get at least 10 of each of these:
3 ml w 22 ga x  XQ-CW $0.15 each - vaccines
12ml w 18 ga x 1 XQ-D4 $0.19 each  antibiotics
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=0029429

Ivomec Plus M0-F1 $36.95- wormer it says injectable, use ORALLY. (you may need something stronger such as Cydectin but start with Ivomec)
http://www.jefferslivestock.com/product.asp?camid=LIV&pn=17180&cn=3100

Free shipping on orders of $50 or more.

Please try and find Scour Halt it also goes by Scour Check and SpectoGard- Jeffers is out.  It is labeled for swine, perhaps your local store didnt understand exactly what you were looking for.

Good luck.  If the other baby has scours I would start treating her immediately with the neomycin and keep looking for Scour Halt.


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