# Another doe with scours...already lost one.



## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Some of you guys may have seen my post over in "Everything Else Goats" about losing a doe the other night..

Well, we had another one start downhill yesterday afternoon.  Full sister to the one we lost..  She's a 19mo doe..  Extremely rapid onset of watery, mucousy (then slightly bloody) scours accompanied by depression and anorexia..

My wife gave 3cc's Scour-Halt (spectinomycin) by mouth plus 1.3ml banamine IM at about 3pm yesterday, as soon as symptoms were noticed.  She'd been perfect late in the evening before.  Gave 2.5ml of Naxcel and 6ml of B-complex at about 6pm, as soon as I could get home with the Naxcel..  Pepto later, and Probios..  Electrolytes (1 packet Re-Sorb in 2qts warm water) by mouth.  

She grazed and browsed a little here and there before sundown...I hand-fed her clean, long grass from outside their pasture and she seemed to like that..  She was pretty eager to eat osage leaves too, if I pulled the high limbs down for her..  Ate a few apple tree leaves my wife plucked for her, as well..  

Her appetite _sounds_ better than it actually _was_, though..  She was only very intermittantly interested in eating..  She'd perk up for a minute and act interested in food, then go very still for a good while...just like the other two.  Everyone else was chowing down.

Her ears began getting cold pretty quickly after the sun went down and I knew her mouth would be soon to follow...in my experience, when the mouth goes cold, they're basically already gone.  We brought them to the barn for hay, but she wasn't interested.  We knew she wouldn't last very long in the cold barn with an empty rumen, so we brought her in the house and turned up the heat to get her nice and toasty.  She was a bottle-baby, so being with us instead of the rest of the herd isn't much of a stressor...quite possibly more comforting, in fact, since her much beloved sister's gone now.  We're thinking the stress of losing her sister may be a contributing factor, actually..

Gave more pepto a few hours after the first dose..  She had several rounds of diarrhea after bringing her in...watery, mucousy, plus some blood later on.  Not much teeth-grinding, but some.

Continuing oral electrolytes every few hours...she's had probably close to 3 quarts as of this morning, I guess..  She's still somewhat dehydrated, but not terribly so..  That is to say, her upper eyelids don't exactly "snap" back into place if you pinch them up, but they don't hold any of the pinch for very long at all..  

She rested well, I think..  Little groaning noises, but her mama does that too..  Could be nothing, could be pain.  She's on her brisket with her head up, which seems good.  Is alert to noises and movement.

Her last round of diarrhea was about 1:30am, so my wife hit her with 3ml of Scour-Halt again at 3am, about 12hrs after the first dose.  I don't mean to say that she went back to pellets or anything -- just that as of 8am when I left, she hadn't had a BM of any kind since 1:30 when she had a pretty good scour.  

Scour-Halt, btw, is VERY off label -- for any ruminant, in fact -- and there's not a lot of good dosage/limit info out there.  I've read that every 12hrs is OK, though rumor has it that you can stop peristalsis with Scour-Halt.  That's worrisome, but the wether got two doses and lived (he's doing great so far, btw[knock on wood]) and it's just an antibiotic...if it can really halt peristalsis, it almost has to do so by killing too much good bacteria, which is why we followed with probios a few hours after each dose of Scour-Halt.

I'm hoping maybe one of you guys has some good real-world experience with Scour-Halt?

She got her second 2.5ml dose of Naxcel at 6am, plus another 6ml of b-complex..  Electrolytes are ongoing, as I said..  Gave fenbendazole last night, too, just because...if the condition is being impacted by parasites, we figured it couldn't hurt..  Fenbendazole kills giardia, too, though I don't think that's what this is.

She perked up momentarily this morning and actually took a few bites of hay at maybe 6:30am..  We were EXTREMELY encouraged to see her eat, considering that her sister was already cold-mouthed and quite dehydrated by this point in her progression....knocking on wood again..

Wanna hear something that REALLY sucks?  The vet's office LOST the last fecals which were supposed to have gone to the diagnostic lab so we'd know what we were fighting..  Those results would have been done, like, oh I dunno...right about NOW had they actually turned them in..  



I went to the vet's office, picked up the accession form, and ran some out there myself this morning.  They're running an aerobic culture (said it will find things like e. coli and salmonella, so...  ), though we probably won't know anything for a while..

So...to run it all down...she's getting Scour-Halt every 12 until the scours clear, already had Banamine, 2.5ml Naxcel 2x/day for 3 days, oral electrolytes, Pepto, Probios, warmth and shelter (our kitchen), attention, companionship and lots of love from her human parents.  If she stops accepting electrolytes orally, we're set up to run SQ Ringer's -- but we _reeeeally_ hope it doesn't come to that..  Clean, warm drinking water is always available, as well as hay.  Fecal cultures are being run as we speak.

So...what more can we do?  Any and all suggestions are welcome.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, I really like SMZ-TMP for these sorts of issues.

Sav-a-calf plus by drench can also keep them going while you wait for the anti-biotics do their job.

Running the fecals like you are doing should result in help here. Sounds like something is definitely running though your herd.

Have you had them johne's tested?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2009)

What about full bloodwork including checking selenium and copper levels and anything else they can check for with bloodwork including CAE, CL and Johnes. Also a fecal including things like giardia and crypto. How about Lepto? One other thing to check for is Emac (Eimeria macusaniensis). It is a super coccidia that they are finding in alpacas. The drug of choice to treat Emac is Marquis. Emac can only be detected in a longer run fecal test. The state lab does them here in Ohio.

It is so tough when they can't tell you what is wrong. You probably already thought of these but it is all I can think of. I have to admit I'm one to call the vet pretty quickly.

I am so sorry you are continuing to have problems.


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## lilhill (Oct 8, 2009)

Dang it all!  Prayers going up for you guys and your doe that this will turn out much better for you.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Well, I really like SMZ-TMP for these sorts of issues.


Gimme a link, if you can...I'll have to buy it online, as I've never seen it available locally.  If she breaks through on the Scour-Halt, I'll give it a shot.

We tried di-methox on the last two, which is a sulfa though without the trimethoprim..  It kept the wether going, but the doe died.  That's why I went straight to the scour halt, which _seemed_ to have done the most good for the wether...though it may have just run its course in him naturally..  Dunno.  



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Sav-a-calf plus by drench can also keep them going while you wait for the anti-biotics do their job.


All I had available to me was Re-Sorb and MannaPro Bounce Back..  If I can order the Sav-a-calf from the same place I get SMZ-TMP, that would be cool.

Heck, you could just put me together a 'wish list' if you wanted -- I'll order it.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Running the fecals like you are doing should result in help here.


Let's hope.  



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Sounds like something is definitely running though your herd.
> Have you had them johne's tested?


Nope...no Johne's test.  No new goats, either..  This herd has been closed for 2yrs and the wether seems to have recovered..

I've never been too worried about Johne's, so I've not done much research on it..  I'll get on it.

Thanks.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2009)

Your vet should have SMZ-TMP. Albon is the same thing if your vet doesn't have SMZ.


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## kimmyh (Oct 8, 2009)

I'm so sorry you are having trouble.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> What about full bloodwork including checking selenium and copper levels and anything else they can check for with bloodwork including CAE, CL and Johnes.


No bloodwork has been done so far.  They get down so incredibly fast that I've not yet been willing to risk the stress of transporting one to the vet.  

They were copper bolused and got Bo-Se not long ago...2mo's, maybe.  



			
				ksal said:
			
		

> Also a fecal including things like giardia and crypto. How about Lepto? One other thing to check for is Emac (Eimeria macusaniensis). It is a super coccidia that they are finding in alpacas. The drug of choice to treat Emac is Marquis. Emac can only be detected in a longer run fecal test. The state lab does them here in Ohio.


The vet "ran a fecal" on the two samples I brought in before...which were subsequently LOST before going to the diagnostic lab for cultures..

The vet tech came out and said "I found coccidiosis and hookworms."

The fact that she said she "found coccidiosis" set off alarm bells, so I pressed her..  She eventually told me that she found what she thought were a very few coccidia cysts..."I mean, I had to really look for them" she said.

:/

The vet came out later and said it's rare that a grazing goat _wouldn't_ carry a benign amount of coccidia...he asked me if they were on medicated grain, which they are..  Add to that the fact that they eat their grain from clean pans and that they're older, mature goats and he pretty well threw coccidiosis out the window.

As for the "hookworms," he said the best they could tell in a goat was just that there were some sort of worms present.  Again, not surprising.

Here's the thing, though...this is what made me scribble a big INCONCLUSIVE on the whole "ran a fecal" fiasco in my head..  I asked the tech which sample had which, as they were from two different goats..

The one who lived had the coccidia and "hookworms," but the one who died..?  

"I didn't find anything at all in that one."

:/

If anything, I would have expected it to be the other way around but...whatever.  If one has X and Y in their fecal and the other doesn't, yet they're both suffering the same thing...probably not related to X and Y anyway.

Waste of time, IMO..

We'll see if the culture is anymore diagnostic..



			
				ksal said:
			
		

> It is so tough when they can't tell you what is wrong. You probably already thought of these but it is all I can think of. I have to admit I'm one to call the vet pretty quickly.
> 
> I am so sorry you are continuing to have problems.


Thanks.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> I'm so sorry you are having trouble.


Thanks, kimmy.  I appreciate it.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

SMZ-TMP is vet rx. Ask your vet. 
It's not real expensive, but is superior to and does not compare to any sulfa on the market. I'm never without it. Hits about every bacterial gut disease out there. 

The sav-a-calf plus can be bought from Jeffers for around $1.50 a pack. Has probiotics in it too, so it works to keep them alive and to straighten the gut. I found it at an Orschlen Farm store.

Johne's can be in a closed  herd for 5 years before ever rearing it's ugly head. By the time it rears, around 60-70% have it already. They tend to show up with the disease at 2 years of age. They can have it at birth and then live with it for 2 years before ever coming down with one symptom. They can get it at 2 years of age and live to 8 without ever showing a symptom until the end.

Here, you can read this article to get started:
http://www.nmga.net/healthdiseaseinformation.htm

I would have the vet pull an ELISA on one of your sick animals. You need to make sure they are neg. for Johnes. If they are neg,..you can be relieved, but if positive, you would have to hurry to come up with a plan to stop the spread.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Wife just called.  She's home with the goat in the kitchen.  Put another round of electrolyte down her recently, about 150ml by mouth.  Gave her more pepto, as she was groaning a bit and grinding very occasionally.  This goat HATES pepto, so that sucks.


We've found that she'll take electrolyte drenches from my wife without too much hassle, whereas she fights me tooth and nail...coughing, spitting, acts like she's choking to death.  My wife doesn't even have to hold her head, though..  Just puts the drench tube in her mouth and gently trickles it down as the goat swallows nicely..

Thank heaven for that.  

Still no scours since 1:30am..  Goat's standing now, looking out the window "longingly" as my wife put it.  Whether or not that's true, who knows...I'm better at knowing the body of a goat than its mind, and I'm clearly not even that good at the body part.  I did agree, though, that if she acts like she feels well enough to get outside and eat a little grass, we should _definitely_ let her..  

Eyelids apparently aren't showing anymore dehydration than before, which is good..  I figure so long as she continues to NOT scour, we can outpace any fluid she loses through urination/respiration and can maybe gain on her a bit.  She apparently dipped her chin in the water at one point, but didn't drink..  Hasn't eaten anymore hay.  Really wish she'd do both, but I'm sure she's still feeling pretty yucky.

I'm thinking I might stop by a buddie's house this evening and pick up a bale or two of the bright green pure alfalfa I helped him put up earlier this year.  I know it's not great to screw with her rumen by switching hay really quickly, but she's already so screwed up anyway between infections and antibiotics...and she NEEDS to eat.  It's a double edged sword, for sure, so I'd only give her a little and see if it encourages her to eat her regular hay, too..

That is...if my buddie's even home.  :/

Anyway...she's feeling pretty puny, but seems to be holding her own so far.  She's MUCH better than her sister was at this point, but not quite where the wether was...though he went downhill later that day.

I dunno...She's alive, alert, and upright..  I'll take what I can get.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

tc said:
			
		

> SMZ-TMP is vet rx. Ask your vet.
> It's not real expensive, but is superior to and does not compare to any sulfa on the market. I'm never without it. Hits about every bacterial gut disease out there.


I'll do just that.  May have to call a different vet, though..  I was lucky to be able to get Naxcel yesterday, as both the large animal vets at my regular clinic are out until Monday and have explicitly instructed that NOBODY is to give out large animal meds.  

The only reason I got mine was because they wrote it up as a refill..  

Not sure if the other large animal vet will even know what SMZ-TMP is, though..  He didn't know there was such a thing as C&D antitoxin.  Yikes.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> The sav-a-calf plus can be bought from Jeffers for around $1.50 a pack. Has probiotics in it too, so it works to keep them alive and to straighten the gut. I found it at an Orschlen Farm store.


I'll look for it and order a bunch..  Thanks.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Johne's can be in a closed  herd for 5 years before ever rearing it's ugly head. By the time it rears, around 60-70% have it already. They tend to show up with the disease at 2 years of age. They can have it at birth and then live with it for 2 years before ever coming down with one symptom. They can get it at 2 years of age and live to 8 without ever showing a symptom until the end.
> 
> Here, you can read this article to get started:
> http://www.nmga.net/healthdiseaseinformation.htm
> ...


Well, I guess if it's an ELISA it'll be positive whether they're showing signs of sickness or not..  Prolly wait until she gets better, in that case...if she gets better.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Wife just called again...  Said the goat coughed a little after getting the Pepto and shot some watery poo out.  Not a great volume, but certainly not something we wanted to have happen.  Can't say it's not responding to Scour-Halt, as that makes some 10-1/2 hours between incidents of scour.  Clearly, it isn't fixed -- but she's not down and "leaking" like her sister, either...which is good.

Wife's exhausted, goat's exhausted, I'm exhausted..  

It's amazing what can transpire in less than 24 hours.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Alright...so I've managed to procure some SMZ-TMP, 960mg tablets..  Best I can tell, the dosage is 1 tab/75lbs twice daily.  

Sound right?

I just don't feel comfortable hitting her with Scour-Halt three times within 24 hours..  

The vet actually recommended halting all oral antibiotics and using supportive care (fluids, etc) to allow the Naxcel injections to do their thing, but said that if I wanted to try SMZ-TMP, he'd let me have some.  Personally...I think we need to kill this IN THE GUT, where it's doing its damage..

What do you guys think?  Lay off the oral meds and stick with Naxcel, risking her starting to scour badly again and dehydrating...or...switch oral meds and run the risk that we kill her GI completely?

Tough call..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2009)

I have SMZ-TMP liquid so I have no idea what the tablets would be. Damned if you do and damned if you don't unfortunately. I guess just keep giving the probiotics too.

I hope your doe pulls through.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

This doe HATES probios, too..  Gotta ram the whole tube way back in her mouth and shoot it in there, then close her mouth and hold it until she swallows..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

So..  My wife just called and said she was about to give her more electrolyte (last was about noon or thereabout) but got a little freaked..  She says "I don't wanna put anything down her neck right now..  She's standing by the window, and it almost looks like she's trying to throw up."

My heart sank...I'm like "She's trying to _Throw up?!?_"

Wife's like "Yeah, it's like she's...oh...oh, oh...oh wait...HEY!  She got up a little cud!  _That's_ what she was trying to do!  Oh man, I thought she was gonna....oh, wait...she swallowed it..
..
...
....
Wait..wait...  HEY!  There it is again!"

Whew..  

So, she's laying off the electrolytes for a little while at least..  We figure getting even a tiny cud up is improvement, and she's not scoured too badly in the last 12 hours or so..  The hope is that MAYBE she'll nibble on a little hay soon, but who knows..

That cud had to be from what tiny bit of hay she ate this morning...but, again, we'll take what we can get.

I'm sooooooo hoping we can get her turned around..  As you guys might imagine, this is a NIGHTMARISH situation and she's by no means out of the woods..  We know that.

Every little cud helps, though.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Did I mention....my wife is AWESOME?!?  

Did I tell you guys that?  Because she is.  

She's been up and down every few hours today after staying up .all.night.long. with this goat.  She currently has a sleeping bag on the kitchen floor for naps.  No joke...a sleeping bag on a vinyl floor.  She's literally camped out with this goat.

How many women out there would even allow a goat -- and a scouring goat at that -- into their kitchen, let alone bring a sleeping bag in there to make sure the goat's doing OK?

I  my wife.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

SMZ-TMP does not kill off the good bacteria in the gut like you would guess that it would. I always give a probiotic and B-Plex while giving the SMZ for good measure, but SMZ is very safe.
SMZ can be given with injectable penicillin with out negating, not sure about the Naxel, your vet should know.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

My vet doesn't even want me to _use_ SMZ-TMP, let alone provide support for my decision to do that...  Not to mention, he and the other large animal guy are on vacation and referring all other large-animal calls to other vets, so I'm actually pretty lucky to have been able to clear SMZ-TMP with him to begin with.

I'm sorta inclined to believe there's probably not much interplay between injectible antibiotics and gut infections in ruminant animals.  Total speculation, and some of the vet's comments don't seem to support my speculation..  Plus he's got a big DVM after his name -- and he's very, very bright -- but, hey, I dunno..  



All I know is that the wether got Naxcel, Di-Methox, and Scour-Halt in one day and it didn't kill him.  In fact, that's when he really started to turn around.

Naxcel's going in this one already, and she's had two rounds of Scour-Halt..  Di-Methox is a sulfa, so you'd think it's at least somewhat similar to sulfamethoxazole.  Didn't kill the wether, so I'm probably gonna try it.  I'll have it, at least.  

If she has another significant incident of watery scour, I'm DEFINITELY gonna try it.

trestle...how long do you keep yours on SMZ-TMP?  Three days, five days, until they stop scouring, ...??


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Doe's not only up now, but walking around the kitchen investigating things..  Wife said she squatted and pee'd once, _then_ pooped.  That probably sounds silly, but when these guys are bad with whatever it is they have, just letting go enough to pee usually turns loose a torrent of dirty.  So, even though it was still watery poo, the fact that she could hold it through a pee was, to us, something of an improvement.

She's apparently gotten that tiny cud up and down a bunch now...might be looking to eat a bit soon, hopefully.  Nosed around at some hay, but declined.  She's _always_ been picky, though.

Wife actually left the room for a few minutes and the doe yelled at her to come back..  She's normally precocious like that, so that's good..  Wife was outside a door with a window to where she could see the doe, so the doe jumped up and put her front feet on the door for a better look.

We refuse to get complacent, but we're encouraged.  I've knocked on a lot of wood today, put it that way.


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## lilhill (Oct 8, 2009)

Celebrate every little step!

Oh, and tell your wife we think she's pretty awesome, too.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

Well, injectable anti-biotic are good for some things, but often, *enough* of the drug is not given to work where it really needs too.

Doesn't scour-halt have streptomycin? Not sure I would mix that with a sulfa or the naxel....

Di-meth, sulmet, albon or corrid are not that great IMO for any GI problems. They are -static drugs, they inbit,...they don't actually kill the bacteria, so this means the animals is slow to recover...it recovers due to it's own immunity fighting the problem....

The only use I have for any is with the Di-meth powder to keep pneumonia at bay where an outbreak is likely...

Anyways, I continue the SMZ-TMP 3- 5 days after complete remission.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

lilhill said:
			
		

> Celebrate every little step!
> 
> Oh, and tell your wife we think she's pretty awesome, too.


I just missed a call from her by like four minutes, and now she won't answer!  

Answering machine doesn't pick up, though, which means she's either A) on the phone, or B) on the intarwebs..  Probably the phone..  

If she's on the phone and it's not with me, everything's probably OK..  

I hope.  

And, yeah, I will tell her that she's awesome for ya!  I've told her that she's awesome for me several times already today.


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## mully (Oct 8, 2009)

Along with the electrolytes I would give a high energy drench like Nutri Drench as all the amino acids are absorbed into the body in about 10 min plus it a high carb that will not hurt her rumen.  I am so sorry you faced with this and my heart goes out to you. God Bless


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Well, injectable anti-biotic are good for some things, but often, *enough* of the drug is not given to work where it really needs too.


I think you're right, personally...either not enough, or not _fast_ enough to keep them from dying before the treatment can begin to work.



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Doesn't scour-halt have streptomycin? Not sure I would mix that with a sulfa or the naxel....


It's spectinomycin, which is apparently derived from Streptomyces spectabilis..  Or, at least that's what wikipedia tells me.



It's been 13 hours since the doe last had spectinomycin, and it'll be a minimum of 2-3 more hours before I can even get the SMZ-TMP home..  If she's still as OK as my wife's describing her to be when I get home, I might wait some more..

Two questions:

1 -- what's your reasoning behind not mixing a streptomycin-derivative (spectinomycin) with a sulfa or cephalosporin?  

2 -- what do you think is a good withdrawal on the spectinomycin before trying the SMZ-TMP?

I mean, if this doe continues to improve and eat and drink on Naxcel alone, I'll probably just leave it at that...maybe continuing the Naxcel for 5 days, instead of three..  If not, well...the wether got sulfa + spectinomycin + naxcel, and he lived -- naxcel in the morning, di-methox in the late afternoon, and Scour-Halt at about 10pm..

Then again, I just said myself that he's a big strong fleshy hybrid with an insatiable appetite.  And when I say "appetite," what I mean is an absolute lust for food.  Could totally be apples to oranges..



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Di-meth, sulmet, albon or corrid are not that great IMO for any GI problems. They are -static drugs, they inbit,...they don't actually kill the bacteria, so this means the animals is slow to recover...it recovers due to it's own immunity fighting the problem....
> 
> The only use I have for any is with the Di-meth powder to keep pneumonia at bay where an outbreak is likely...


Well, I had an idea that sulmet and corrid were sorta sucky, but I thought di-methox was pretty decent as sulfas go..  Common wisdom in these parts is to try a sulfa (usually sulmet) before anything 'harder' when a goat has persistent non-dietary scour..  If that doesn't work "oh, in a day or two" then you move on to something more potent..

Thing is...this organism -- whatever it is -- _kills in a day_ if you don't do something to at least slow down the scour..  You just can't keep up with oral electrolytes unless you slow it down..  Di-methox slowed it down in a big fleshy hybrid with lots of strength and plenty of reserves, but young-ish purebred nubian does..?  Not so much reserve..



			
				tc said:
			
		

> Anyways, I continue the SMZ-TMP 3- 5 days after complete remission.


Cool, thanks!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

mully said:
			
		

> Along with the electrolytes I would give a high energy drench like Nutri Drench as all the amino acids are absorbed into the body in about 10 min plus it a high carb that will not hurt her rumen.  I am so sorry you faced with this and my heart goes out to you. God Bless


I'M ALL OUT!  

Last I checked, TSC was out too, but I might be able to swing by there on my way home to check...maybe.

Jeffers or Valley Vet should have a fully-stocked outpost open 24/7 in every major city.  Just my opinion, of course, but..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2009)

What about rumen juice from a donor cow or goat? We do that with alpacas. Works like a charm to keep the rumen going.

I have Ohio State University to get the rumen juice, not sure where you could get some if you aren't near there.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 8, 2009)

Talked to the wifers again..  The little doe is still up and about, sniffing around on everything, and yells if my wife leaves the room for 2 seconds..

She ate, you guys..  She actually ate some hay.  

After she ate the hay, she drank actual water...like, on her own, and LOTS of it..  Double 

My wife had taken two of the kitchen chairs, pushed them together, then set the hay basket (woven wicker -- only the finest will do) and some fresh warm water up on the seats and up off the floor, at a level where the doe would be most famliar with seeing it..

Clever gal, that wife of mine..  

Seeing the activity, the doe got interested in what was going on..  She came over to investigate and ended up eating and drinking!!

She's apparently been burping up cuds like they're going out of style, too...the goat, that is...not the wife.  

Still -- NO COMPLACENCY..  Encouraged, yes...complacent, NO.

We're more than aware she could still flop over dead at any moment, so we remain vigilant.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

I would keep up with what you are doing for today, it appears to be working, so no need to change things! 
I would have to look up the answers to the drug questions you have just to make sure I have the right info(top of my head is not always perfect, so I do double check this stuff), which is usually not a problem, but I have a wether whom just had a Urethrostomy and is not doing so well, so I have to run back out to help him.
Just quick, half-time for the scour-halt is probably around 12-24 hours, but here, I would have to look that up, so don't quote me on that,..LOL.
-Most antibiotics DO negate each other when used together. There are very few(off the top of my head again) that can be used together.
Gentamicin and Pen can be used together, SMZ and pen can be used together. Tetracycline and pen can NOT be used together.
Most people do use the OTC sulfa 1st off and that is part of the reason they are now useless. SMZ luckily is still RX and it is still effective(here on my farm anyways). Trimethoprim acts as a special agent as well to help with effectiveness.
Have to run to the goat and then run the kids to practices,..I do have more to add here, just can't at the moment.


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## freemotion (Oct 8, 2009)

You can make your own electrolyte solution in a pinch.  There are many recipes out there, here is one:  http://www.pamf.org/patients/ors.html

"Salt substitute" usually is sold as "Lite salt" here in the USA.


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## Roll farms (Oct 8, 2009)

Shhhh...don't tell my vet that I did this....
If you've ever been given Bactrim for a URI / sinus infection, it's the same thing as SMZ-TMP.  F'reals.
I discovered this accidently while crushing SMZ-TMP tabs up for some kids w/ coccidia a few years ago, which reminded me that *I* needed to take MY antibiotic, and looked at the pills and realized WE WERE ON THE SAME MEDS.
Only....the vet sells them to me, 50 for 10$.  The pharmacy was a lot more expensive.
(In case you're wondering why I crushed them up, she told me to crush them up, put them in applesauce and drench them that way....t'was a MESS.)
Anyhow, last time my daughter got sick w/a sinus infection, I gave her the SMZ TMP and she was fine as a fiddle in a few days.

This isn't really germaine to your situation, but I found it to be quite useful info...

Glad she seems better and I hope she continues to improve...I'd offer input if I had anything of value to contribute, but I've never seen scours like you've described.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 8, 2009)

(snicker), Roll, ya know they now sell SMZ-TMP and penicillin for fish? You can guess what is happening there...
Anyways, you're vet is some-what right about not using the SMZ with the naxcel. Definitely do not use  the di-meth with the naxcel, because the di-meth WILL negate the naxcel. SMZ-TMP is different than OTC sulfas, meaning it is -cidal and not -static. 
However, because SMZ it is "sort-of" in the same family, many believe it will inhibit penicillins. I actually do not find that to be true(SMZ with pen), but we're talking about my layman experience here, not a scientific clinical study.
Just as a note of interest, sulfas block prostglandins that cause gut inflammation,..
The scour-halt actually should be fine with pen or the naxel, but this drug is tricky and actually can cause you a host of other problems. This drug works best by being used just infrequently. Once every day works better than "keeping a theraputic range". It's in a drug family that can become nephrotoxic,...so just be careful with it. Most drugs in this family do not completely leave the body for around 72 hours! Half-life is short, but elimination is long. That is what is somewhat interesting about this drug family,..it does not work like most others.


Anyways, eating and DRINKING are both very good signs, I would keep up with what you are doing on the naxcel unless something changes...


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## lilhill (Oct 9, 2009)

How is she this morning?


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## cmjust0 (Oct 9, 2009)

Grabbed the SMZ-TMP from the vet last night (they left it out back with an invoice on it...pay whenever...they make mistakes sometimes, sure, but leaving meds for me to pick up after hours is just awesome), picked up some human food, more electrolyte, nutri-drench, a few cheapo $4 throw blankets at Wal-Mart for more clean bedding, and headed home..  

The doe met me with a "MAAAAA!" when I walked in the door..  

She was up and about and sniffing and investigating..  She had a few more small watery poos, but then it turned to sort of a 'jelly' poop..  Definitely more solid, which is good.

I saw her drink..and drink..and drink..and drink..would barely let us eat our dinner for wanting to sniff around and see if we had anything she'd be interested in.

Goats don't eat chicken fingers, though.  I tried to tell her, but she insisted on sniffing anyway..  

She ate a little here and there, stopping once to really chow down pretty vigorously for a good couple of minutes.  Didn't consume a great volume of hay, but had a prolonged interest in it.  

She burped up big ol' cheek-filling cuds for quite a while after that, then she and my wife laid down in the kitchen and fell asleep cuddled up with each other.  



She got her 3rd of 6 Naxcel's this morning, and another shot of b-complex.  Her rumen was pretty empty this morning, and her ears were chilly from inactivity..  She ground her teeth a bit, but that could be from one of many things bugging her right now...residual pain from the infection, an empty tummy, the shots, fatigue, who knows..  She did make more jelly poo this morning, though, and pee'd what seemed to be a gallon when she got up.  What she needs right now is to EAT, which I suspect she'll do today.

I hope, anyway.  

All in all, she seems MUCH better..  Given that her poo was starting to solidify and that she hadn't had a dose of scour halt in quite some time, I held off on the SMZ-TMP..  I think the Scour-Halt served to slow it down enough to allow hydration and nursing to keep her alive until the Naxcel could begin working..

I don't like that solution, though, because stopping her from pooping when there's a pathogen that's causing her damage is not exactly ideal..  Keeps her from dehydrating and going into shock, which helps her stay alive...but it's not something I'd imagine is very pleasant.  

All I know is...her sister was 14hrs dead by this point in her disease progression, and this gal seems to be -- SEEMS TO BE (knocking furiously on wood!) -- going the other way so far.  She's alive, alert, upright, bright, thirsty but hydrated, ploppy-poopied, and mildly interested in food.  That's pretty good, considering what all she's been through.



What sucks is that it's raining cats and dogs here...damp, and chilly.  If it were warmer, she'd probably go out to graze and maybe get to spend the night in the barn with the rest of the goats..  I sorta think watching them eat hay might encourage her to eat hay, but I dunno.  That's just speculation.  As it is, though, looks like she'll probably be in the house a third night.

That's OK, though...she's above ground, and I'm pretty sure she'll eat when she gets hungry enough.  

Oh...all the other goats attacked their hay this morning, so we're good there SO FAR.  

I'm sure my wife will call with periodic updates today, so I'll keep y'all posted.

Thanks for everything, btw..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 9, 2009)

One of our boerxnubi does is in a strong heat right now, so she was standing in the door of the barn screaming...  The doe we have inside heard her and started watching her out the window..  When the doe in heat would scream, the doe in the kitchen would go 'maaaaa' really softly like she knew she couldn't be heard, but felt compelled to answer anyway..

That said, we're pretty sure she's kinda itching to get back outside and visit with the herd again..  

It stopped raining, too, at least for a while..  It's bright but overcast now, temps are up in the mid 60s..peeks of sun every now and again..  It's my belief that if a sickly goat decides it wants to go out and poke around, you should let it..  We can always bring her back in if need be, so the wife's gonna let her out pretty soon..  

We'll see what happens..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 9, 2009)

Doe went outside and followed my wife down the the barn and started raring up to butt heads with another of the does..  Not in a mean way, but more like "Hey, where have _you_ been?!?!"

Wife fluffed up the hay in the rack and everybody piled in to eat, and the former house-doe ate for a good long while.  Pooped a little as she ate, too, and it's apparently getting more solid all the time.  

Wife left the barn and one of the older does followed...then out came everyone else.  Wife walked back over toward the house and into the backyard, and the goats continued on past that gate and out to pasture.  Wife said it was a little sad to see the doe go off with the herd, but really good at the same time.  

She said the overall feeling she got was a good one...like she'd done the right thing by letting the goat out.  

I'm sure she's right.

She'll be checking in on everyone periodically, but there's a lot of cleanup to do and she's like...."I just need to lay down, like, in an actual *bed* for a while."

Understandable..


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## ksalvagno (Oct 9, 2009)

Glad to hear she is doing better and out with the herd. Hopefully recovery will continue and no further problems.


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## lilhill (Oct 9, 2009)

Woohoo!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> ...I have a wether whom just had a Urethrostomy and is not doing so well, so I have to run back out to help him.


Anything we can do to help???

I'll keep my    for him, and do keep us posted..


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## trestlecreek (Oct 9, 2009)

Glad to hear yours is doing good!!

No, nothing left to do, my wether passed last night in my arms. Thanks for asking though...


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## mully (Oct 9, 2009)

Great that she is better !!


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## lilhill (Oct 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Glad to hear yours is doing good!!
> 
> No, nothing left to do, my wether passed last night in my arms. Thanks for asking though...


So sorry to hear you lost him.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 9, 2009)

So sorry you lost your wether.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> No, nothing left to do, my wether passed last night in my arms. Thanks for asking though...


Oh no!   

I'm really, really sorry to hear that..


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## trestlecreek (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone 
I don't mean to hi-jack your thread, but I'll explain a little about it so everyone may learn something from this.

I'm really shaken by this,.... he was completely blocked. The surgery was the only option due to it being complete. My vet was very confident that this was the way to go(many successes from what he indicated). 
I am trying not to attack my vets method here, which will be hard at the moment, I can't blame him, the goat was a gonner and he did what he personally could do and I think he did mean well and thought this would be fine.

It wasn't though. A catheter should have been placed IMO and stronger pain relievers/anti-inflammatories should have been given to him. 

He went into shock right in my arms after I  routinely palpitated his bladder to check for fullness. The whole thing was just too much for him and he freaked out. 

I knew that this was a last shot for him, but it really broke my heart to see him go this way.
I've seen a many animals die, and I can generally handle it quite well, but this one just didn't go over right.

I guess the only thing I have learned from this is that if this procedure is elected for your wether, ask the vet to treat the goat like a small animal(cat, dog), not a large.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 10, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear what your wether went through. I have been there too when I felt the vet made a bad decision and it makes the loss even harder.


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## kimmyh (Oct 10, 2009)

Why would you palpate, the area would have fresh sutures internally?


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## trestlecreek (Oct 10, 2009)

Well, the bladder itself did not have sutures. He only sutured the new opening he created below the anus.
I palpitated to determine whether or not he had eliminated.


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## kimmyh (Oct 11, 2009)

I guess I don't understand. Once the wether was rerouted, he would dribble urine out all day, the same way a cath would work, so unless there were BIG stones in the bladder he should have been passing urine. Rerouting is a pretty major surgery, and there would have been abdominal sutures, as the urethra was tacked in place.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 11, 2009)

No, they suture what is left of the penis to the new opening below the anal open, but that is it.
Yes, they can dribble as long as a stricture does not form, or swelling/pain can also compromise the animals ability to go, etc... 
A catheter would keep it patent while everything else around it healed. Major arteries verse and lead into that area, so breeding is another consideration. 
Yes, it is a major surgery, you can't just cut the penis off and expect the animal to go running across the field. It hurts, there is swelling and the animal has to adjust to the procedure. It sounds and seems simple, but it is not.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm really sorry to hear about how this all went down, trestle..  

If you don't wanna talk about it anymore, I'll understand, but...do you happen to know if the new opening was created above or below the sigmoid flexure?  

If it was created below, a catheter may not have been an option..  Indeed, I think trying to run a catheter through the sigmoid flexure is why my UC buckling still dribbles to this day.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

Our doe made perfect pellets yesterday afternoon...then loosened up again last night..  Not runny, but more like mucousy pellet clumps.  :/

She had her head buried in the hay rack and was flat-out _chowing down_ when we noticed a little bit of 'residue' around the hairless areas..  I had a two shots of Naxcel left, and she's only been without it for a day...so I gave her one shot last night, and she'll get the last today.  Just in case, I guess..  

My gut tells me that she's still just getting everything worked out, and that what we're seeing is just the aftermath of a pretty dang bad bacterial gut infection.  When she was turned back out Friday, she hadn't eaten very much at all for two days and had been on enough antibiotic to help her kick the illness...her rumen was probably like brand-new.  

I checked on her this morning and she was up eating.  No evidence of any severe scouring, so I gave her some probios and threw more hay...which she dove right into.

I keep telling myself...she's been through a lot...she's been through a lot...she's been through a lot...and I try not to freak out..

It's hard, though.  We're keeping an eye on her to make sure she doesn't slide back downhill on us..  

ETA -- We probios'd her a couple times throughout the whole ordeal and I'm sure the meds didn't kill _everything_, so it's not like she was tabula rasa when we turned her back out....but still.  With that much antibiotic and that little food, I would imagine her guts weren't in super shape for breaking down a bunch of forage all of a sudden..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

Doe seems pretty fine so far today..  My wife actually went down and checked on them again last night after I went to bed and said she saw her poo what appeared to be pretty good pellets.  Guessing it's just a matter of getting her gut back on track after the wrecking ball of infection and subsequent treatment.

Talked to the vet tech again..  She's getting me a vial of Naxcel to keep on hand, just in case..  I had thought about Baytril, but it's WAY expensive and I can always freeze the Naxcel if and when I need to mix it all up.  That'll work OK.  

She got a fax from the diagnostic lab, too...get this..

*No pathogens were cultured.*

None.  Zip, zilch, nada..  I couldn't believe it.  I thought for sure they'd culture something like a pathogenic e.coli or some wicked badass strain of salmonella, but nope..  It only grew normal gut bacteria.  According to the tech, that doesn't necessarily mean there _wasn't_ a pathogen...just that it wasn't present in that particular sample..

Or maybe it's something they don't normally culture...like bacillus hellfiris demonii.  

Ok, I made that up, but..  ..you guys know what I mean.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 12, 2009)

It was cut above the sigmoid flexure. 

Good news to hear your doe is better, sorry to hear the culture was neg.  Knowing what is going wrong sure would be helpful.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 12, 2009)

If you get Excenel, it can just be stored in the cupboard. It is the same as Naxcel. I keep Excenel and Exceed (long acting Naxcel) in my cupboard.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 12, 2009)

I'll ask about Excenel..  Looks like Jeffers has 100ml vials for about $75, and I'm about to pay $30 for 20ml of Naxcel.  :/

Of course, the vet may want $200 for a vial of Excenel and I can't exactly order Rx items from Jeffers, soooooo....I'm pretty much at the vet's mercy here..



They're usually pretty fair, though, and I can pretty much get whatever I want.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 12, 2009)

I can tell you that Exceed costs about $200. I haven't had to buy Excenel for a while so I can't remember what that cost me.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2009)

My vet doesn't carry Excenel..  They said they could get it for me, but I'll have to talk to one of the techs today to see about prices.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 13, 2009)

For me it is worth it to have. I used to keep Naxcel and it was such a pain to have to freeze what you didn't use and then it was only good for a year. Plus I would freeze it in shots and you never need the same amount of it so a lot got wasted. Both my vets carry Excenel now because almost everyone wants that one instead of Naxcel.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 13, 2009)

The vet clinic I use has about six DVMs now..  Only two are experienced with large animals, but they use Naxcel for all kinds of different critters..  I asked the tech yesterday if it was a pain for me to come pick up one syringe (blew the needle off one the other day, for instance, and had to replace it to complete the treatment) and she said it was no problem at all..  They've ALWAYS got a bottle of Naxcel mixed up and ready to use on something..

Point being...I'd say sheer volume is why they still use Naxcel.

When the large animal docs were on vacation last week, I was initially referred to a different, much smaller clinic..  They wouldn't sell Naxcel by the shot because they'd have to mix the whole thing, but they did offer to sell me a whole 20ml vial......_FOR $80_.  

Jeffers lists it at about $28..  I paid something like $34 at my vet's office yesterday, which I didn't think was too bad.  I just wanted to have it one hand, in case somebody else comes down with this bug at like 3am on an early Sunday morning or whatever.  

I'll be calling about the Excenel today, though.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2009)

Well, the wife just called...another doe's getting the runs.  

She's apparently eating and acts normally so far..  I haven't seen her, but the wife's pretty concerned about the way the doe's hiney looks..  She's thinking that it may just be too early in the pathogenesis to be causing her pain and anorexia.  I'm not sure...I'm not there, so I can't see what's going on.  Could be nothing, could be anything.  The big wether was already droopy by the time he scoured, and we're thinking the other two probably were as well, so that would seem to point to this not being the same thing..

What are the chances it would be different, though?  :/

Wife's heading back down to the barn with a syringe of Scour-Halt to watch her...  If she makes super runny poo, she'll get the halt, then a shot of banamine and about 2.5ml of Naxcel right away.

If it is what we hope it isn't, we'd like to try to knock it down either before she goes anorexic or at least fast enough that she'll get back to food and water quickly enough for us not to have to worry so much about dehydration and shock and bringing her inside to keep warm, etc..

Ugh..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 14, 2009)

Wife went ahead and gave the Scour-Halt.  I left it to her judgement, and she decided it was better to do it than not do it.  We're probably both a little jumpy right now, but I certainly do trust her judgement.  

The doe's out grazing now with everyone else in a light mist, which is somewhat unusual for all of them.  If this doe had the least bit of appetite suppression, she'd surely have stayed in the barn as she's a bit of an "independent thinker" to begin with.  She'd have no problem laying down in the barn by herself if she wanted to, sick or not.

If the Scour-Halt does what we've found it to be extremely good at doing, we may never really know if she was headed in the direction the others were headed.  The question then becomes whether or not you treat pre-emptively with Naxcel, or do you just see what happens..

Well...we're gonna treat pre-emptively.  Reason being, we never really knew where the others "went" when they headed that way, because the cultures were inconclusive..  We don't even know if the Naxcel helped them, save for the fact that the two who lived long enough to get more than one round are still living..  

What can it hurt, right?  

Well, I can think of a few things, but...oh well.  She's getting it anyway.

:/


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## ksalvagno (Oct 14, 2009)

This is all very interesting. I really wonder what is going through  your herd. I hope everyone ends up ok.

All I can say is, do what you gotta do. Especially since they can't find what is wrong.

Maybe your wife is seeing the signs earlier because she is more sensitive to it now and almost looking for it.

Is there anything airborne going on in your area with cattle, goats or alpacas? Some problems any ruminant can catch.

What about Coronavirus? How about a super coccidia like Eimeria macusaniensis (Emac)? How about Cryptosporidiosis?

Good luck with them all. Hopefully it will quickly run its course and move on to another farm.


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## lilhill (Oct 15, 2009)

Whatever this thing is, I hope you can stay ahead of it.  At least  they are in good hands.  Hang in there!


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

One of two things happened with this doe...  Either:

A) this was a false alarm, or
B) the organism is extremely susceptible to spectinomycin.

The doe never quit grazing and eating hay...actually, I don't think I've ever seen her eat more voraciously as she did last night.  By the time I got home and went out to see her, she was making segmented turds.  Kinda somewhere between loafy and clumpy pellets.  The kind you simply keep an eye on, if everything else is fine..

We went back and forth, then decided against giving Naxcel.  She was up, alert, eating like a horse, had a full rumen, and wasn't scouring _per se_....she just didn't seem like a goat that needed a big strong antibiotic like Naxcel.  We checked on them up until about 1am last night and she never seemed off at all.

I kinda doubt that it was a false alarm...what would be the chances?  My wife feels the same way, believing this doe was eventually headed down the same path as the others, but that the Scour-Halt stopped the pathogenesis..  

I mean, there are farms around here where a sizeable percentage of their goats are in a constant state of runny scour from one thing or another (parasites, quick dietary changes, stress, etc), but we're not one of those farms by any stretch..  We don't walk out into the barnyard and _expect_ to see someone with poo down their legs...that's extremely unusual here.  So, to see it after everything we've been through lately would seem to be more than a mere coincidence.

With that said, if this in fact was NOT a false alarm and the Scour-Halt stopped it cold, I'd have to suspect strongly that all this has been due to a pathogenic strain of e. coli that somehow found its way to our herd.  I say that because that's what spectinomycin is specifically designed to kill..  

All I know is that the doe was laying snugly in the barn this morning with a dry tail and a gigantic cud.  Everyone else had clean tails as well.

The whole thing's just....weird.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 15, 2009)

That's great that the doe seems to be fine. Hopefully this is the end of it.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

Yeah, hopefully.  

I talked to the vet tech again this morning..  She had originally said they didn't use Excenel because they had to buy it 12 vials at a time (1200ml, total -- thassa lot), but that's apparently changed since she last checked.  Said she could get me one vial and have it by tomorrow..

Gonna cost just under $100, whereas it would be about $75 if I ordered it through Valley Vet...but it's a scrip, so it's not like I can be super choosy.  I kinda don't think $25 is too bad for shipping and handling, with the balance going in lieu of an actual consultation fee or office visit, though.  

Bottom line...the vet's gotta stay in business, and heck, I'll just feel better knowing I've got an ample supply of a strong, shelf-stable, ready-to-use scrip in the medicine cabinet.  Whether it cost me $75 or $100 probably won't even cross my mind if and when I have to use it.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

Sounds good.
Did you get one tested for Johnes?


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## kimmyh (Oct 15, 2009)

Excenel is a wonderful drug, but like Naxel is considered one of the drugs of last resort. We try to avoid using it until other drugs have been tried and failed. I have paid from $87.00-178.00 per bottle, depending on where I bought it.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Sounds good.
> Did you get one tested for Johnes?


Nope..

Something I was thinking was that I should probably check to see if the fecal I sent to the diagnostic lab happened to have been cultured for M. paratuberculosis..  May have been...if so, it came back clean.

I was reading about Johnes, though...apparently, scours aren't a common sign of Johnes in goats like it is in cattle.  Gradual, unexplained loss of body condition is apparently the primary clue, and that's not the case in our herd.  

Indeed, we've determined a couple of ours to be too fat to safely breed this fall, despite the fact that we feed very little grain and grass-mix hay.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Excenel is a wonderful drug, but like Naxel is considered one of the drugs of last resort. We try to avoid using it until other drugs have been tried and failed. I have paid from $87.00-178.00 per bottle, depending on where I bought it.


Yeah...I certainly don't plan to use it when penicillin or tetracycline would do.  Not to mention...at $100 vs. $10 or $18 a vial, it would cost an arm and a leg to use a lot of Excenel.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

Yes, but animals with Johnes can intermittently have problems like you are describing before they actually die from the disease... 
Just something to consider, or one more problem to rule out....

Other than disease, it sounds almost as if they are having bouts of entro. I would go ahead and vaccinate them all with cd/t.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

The one who died got 40ml of C&D anti-toxin, starting with 20ml more than 12hrs before she died...no change whatsoever.  She got another 20ml a few hours before she died...again, no response at all.

You're right, though..  It does _sound_ like entero, even though they were vaccinated 6mo ago and there's been no bloat or any other condition that would facilitate a Cl. Perf. bloom...

The fact that it acts so similarly to entero but in all likelihood isn't entero is among the scarier parts of the whole deal.

I mean, what's worse than something running through your herd that can be just as bad as entero, but comes without the benefit of the causative organism being well known and feared enough that millions of dollars have been poured into vaccines and treatments?

It's a nightmare...  Luckily, though, we've learned enough to have saved two from the depths of it and probably snatched another right from the outer lip of the downward spiral before she became terribly symptomatic..  

As I told my wife....just think...we could easily be down four right now and still be without a clue as to what we should be doing..  As unlucky as this all may seem....could be a lot worse.

  (...I'm knocking furiously on wood right now...)


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

Yep, I would vaccinate again just to be safe. We vaccinate every 6 months here. 
The cd/t protection actually wears off in 3 months after the booster....


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## kimmyh (Oct 15, 2009)

These are full sized goats, right? If I am using CD Antitoxin on a baby Pygmy it gets 20ml SQ and 20ml PO, on a full sized Pygmy it is 60ml SQ and 60ml PO, on the full sized dairy goat, I gave 120ml SQ and PO, all given every 6-12 hours. You can NOT over dose CD Antitoxin.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 15, 2009)

Boy, I have a LOT to learn with goats. Naxcel (Excenel or Exceed) is considered the broad spectrum first choice for alpacas. That is why I have it on hand all the time. Long acting Penicilin is only used for certain things and for people who don't want to spend the money on Excenel and hope Penicillin works. I was hoping there was more in common with goats and alpacas so the learning curve wouldn't be so high but apparently not.

Glad you were able to get Excenel. You will be much happier with being able to have it on the shelf instead of in the freezer.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> These are full sized goats, right? If I am using CD Antitoxin on a baby Pygmy it gets 20ml SQ and 20ml PO, on a full sized Pygmy it is 60ml SQ and 60ml PO, on the full sized dairy goat, I gave 120ml SQ and PO, all given every 6-12 hours. You can NOT over dose CD Antitoxin.


Well, maybe I should have given more..  I hadn't had any reason to ever use it prior to the incident and did the best I could to try and get goat dosages....what I found was 20ml every 12hrs.  Maybe that was wrong, I dunno..

What I do know is that they were vaccinated for entero 6mo prior, it's something that -- unlike entero -- seems to be making its way around, the others responded to Scour-Halt and Naxcel and pulled through, and there was nothing like bloat or other gastro upset prior to the onset of severe illness that would put me on guard to look for a potential clostridial bloom..  

But, hey...I don't know what it was (...or _is_ ) so I certainly can't say with much certainty that it _wasn't_ enterotoxemia.

I will, however, file your dosages away in my head for future reference, and it's vaccination time anyway.  If none of this had been going on, they'd have already been done.  Provided everybody's in good shape this weekend, we should be able to booster everybody.

Maybe that'll stop it..


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

Entro can respond to anti-biotics...so it is possible that the scour-halt would have helped with entro....
What ever you are dealing with, you are working really hard  I know you must be frustrated and feel like you are walking on egg shells....
Have you thought about the feed supply?


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## kimmyh (Oct 15, 2009)

Spectinomycin (the product that helps in Scour Halt) is a great antibiotic, however, it is no longer available as an over the counter/rx injectable, and in order for it to truly be effective with Scour Halt you would need enough Scour Halt to impact the goat. Two pumps of Scour Halt only delivers 50mg of spectinomycin-the dose recommended for pigs over 10lbs. The reason it works so well in babies, is the quantity of the medication to body weight.

Entero can be treated with Mylanta/antibiotic if that is all you have, but Mylanta can cause a loosening of the stool. Neither treatment has been as effective as CD Antitoxin for me.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

Yeah...who knew that primarily just waiting and watching and worrying was such hard work?!?  We're exhausted!  

As for the feed..  I buy from a local mill called Hallway Feeds.  They're the official feed supplier of the NTRA, and their feeds are sold in like 13 countries around the world.

Their goat-labelled feed is a 16% medicated pellet, mixed 2:1 Ca, with added ammonium chloride, copper, etc...  At the very least, it's certainly no _worse_ than anything else out there..  Our goats, thus far, have done very well on Hallway Feed.

Thing is, it's $7.50/bag if you pick it up at the dock.  That's pretty cheap...cheap enough that a HUGE number of goat people around here feed it.  If there were a problem even with just the bagged goat feed and no other feeds they produce, I think I'd be hearing more about goats going down the way mine did.

If it were a problem with all their feeds (as I would expect something like salmonella contamination to be), I can't help but think people around the world would be screaming and yelling -- especially if a million dollar thoroughbred dies.

All my goats have been on the same feed, too, right out of the same bag.  If everyone went down at the same time, I'd be a lot more suspect of the feed..  As it stands, though, I don't _think_ that's what it is.

But, hey...still don't know what it is, so I can't really say what it's not either.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

kimmyh said:
			
		

> Spectinomycin (the product that helps in Scour Halt) is a great antibiotic, however, it is no longer available as an over the counter/rx injectable, and in order for it to truly be effective with Scour Halt you would need enough Scour Halt to impact the goat. Two pumps of Scour Halt only delivers 50mg of spectinomycin-the dose recommended for pigs over 10lbs. The reason it works so well in babies, is the quantity of the medication to body weight.
> 
> Entero can be treated with Mylanta/antibiotic if that is all you have, but Mylanta can cause a loosening of the stool. Neither treatment has been as effective as CD Antitoxin for me.


The ones that went down bad and recovered got a total of 300mg in 2 doses, 3ml at a time..  The one last night that may or may not have been headed downhill got 150mg and is out grazing merrily as we speak..  She could be a fluke, or she could have been caught SUPER early....dunno.

I do know that the guy who recommended Scour-Halt to me advised that I be really careful with it, as he'd gotten a little too trigger happy with it at some point and locked one up solid.  I'm not sure if it recovered or not, but I'm guessing not...otherwise, he'd probably have never known what he did.

Thing is...I'm not sure what else is even _in_ Scour-Halt..  All the label says is Spectinomycin..


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

May not be the feed,...I know in the past microtoxins(sp) have been to blame for sporadic problems...
What is it medicated with? Is it decoxx?


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

Yep, deccox.

Thing is, we really don't even feed that much of it..  A 50lb bag will last this group...jeez...a week or better when there were 9 (...now 8   ).

They basically get a little bit just to get them out of the way while we refresh their water, fill the hayrack, feed the LGD, etc..  Grain has sorta become more of a tool around here at this point.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

Ok, Decoxx is really safe, that is what is in my feed.
The monensin is what I do not like as an antibiotic additive....


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## kimmyh (Oct 15, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Yep, deccox.
> 
> Thing is, we really don't even feed that much of it..  A 50lb bag will last this group...jeez...a week or better when there were 9 (...now 8   ).
> 
> They basically get a little bit just to get them out of the way while we refresh their water, fill the hayrack, feed the LGD, etc..  Grain has sorta become more of a tool around here at this point.


Okay, that may be your problem, it is better to not feed grain at all, than to feed it here and there. Feeding it as a tool today, and not tomorrow is a great way to bring on Entero.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

kimmy said:
			
		

> Okay, that may be your problem, it is better to not feed grain at all, than to feed it here and there. Feeding it as a tool today, and not tomorrow is a great way to bring on Entero.


I think I misrepresented the situation..  Every evening, we head to the barn to refresh their water, fill the hayrack, and feed the LGD, and that's when the goats get their grain.  That way they get grain every evening, the same amount each time, and almost at a set schedule.  Where the "tool" part comes in is that we only feed enough grain keep them occupied long enough to shut the LGD out of the barn and get him fed, throw hay into the rack and fluff it up a bit (..yeah, I know, but they like it fluffy  ..), dump and refill their water, etc...

They clean up their grain in a matter of just a few minutes, and there's not enough there for anybody to go about gorging themselves on it..  They try to kill one another to get at it, of course, but there are five pans in total for 8 goats now.  If someone gets bumped out of one pan, they simply go find another one where there's less "traffic."  

When they're done, the pans are collected right away and checked to be sure nobody stepped in them or anything like that, and then they're stored upside down (to prevent bird poopage) in the hayloft.  If there's a speck of anything questionable in them, they come back to the house and get bleached before they're used again.

All in all, the only real inconsistencies in our goats' diet is what they're finding to eat on their own..  Even then, if you take sort of a macro view and look at their pastures as a singular food source, the various "ingredients" of which they've adjusted themselves to tolerate in the same manner they've become acclimated to the individual ingredients of their grain, there's extremely little variation in their diet.

That's not to say that a pasture is like pelleted feed, of course....  If one of the goats decides to walk around picking at bull nettle all day long, you're probably going to see the negative results of that....but that's very unlike a goat.  It's even more unlike _four_ goats.

Anyway...I'm rambling now..  

I get what you're saying, though, and I totally agree.  That's why we try to be really consistent with our goats' diet, so as not to create unnecessary pauses in the digestive process and create little windows of opportunity for things that go bump in the rumen.


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## trestlecreek (Oct 15, 2009)

I think too little decoxx in the ration could cause resistance to cocci, but that is about the biggest drawback...


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## cmjust0 (Oct 15, 2009)

Deccox, to me, is a double edged sword..  It does a good job preventing coccidiosis, but it mimics thiamine..  As we all know, B vitamins -- thiamine in particular -- are critical to a goat's wellbeing..  I can't help but think that if deccox wasn't labelled for goats and we were debating whether or not it was safe to use off-label, there would be huge debates about it.

I can tell you that when I mentioned to my vet that our goats were getting very little grain with deccox, he said "It doesn't take much" just before he basically ruled out coccidiosis.

I dunno how much is "not much" as far as this vet would consider, but ours don't get much.  

ETA:  If I had my druthers, I'd buy unmedicated grain and do a preventative for coccidia in kids if only so I'd know exactly who got what, when, and in what dosage.  The feed mill doesn't make an unmedicated version, though, and I've not yet come to the decision to switch brands just to get away from the med..

I might, though, eventually.


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## kimmyh (Oct 15, 2009)

Ah, I get it. Is it possible for you to dry lot the goats for a couple of weeks? If you can, then maybe you can slowly let a couple of them out at a time and watch to see if any have trouble with their browse.

In order for Decoxx to be effective in reducing your soil loads/containment, but not eradication in your goats, you have to feed the full amount specified on the bag, which with many feeds is quite a bit.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 16, 2009)

I could keep them locked up in the barn with just a tiny exercise area, but I'd be just as concerned about keeping them confined if someone happened to be shedding a pathogen..  

As for the deccox dosage via feed...yep...that's why I'd rather have a non-medicated feed..


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## kimmyh (Oct 16, 2009)

I would rather they poop in a small confined area that I can disinfect than a huge pen where nature will have to take its course, but that's just me.


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## cmjust0 (Oct 16, 2009)

Barn's wooden with a dirt floor..  Attempting to sanitize wood would be hard enough, let alone dirt..  

My thought was that they'd run less of a risk of squishing around in shed organisms if they were outside, and that the weather would do a much better job sanitizing that area than I could do sanitizing the inside of the barn..

I get what you're saying, though..  You don't know how bad I want to tear one of my old pole barns down and replace it with an insulated metal building on a concrete floor..


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## cmjust0 (Oct 16, 2009)

Everybody seemed fine this morning..  Went out and checked them before work and the one who was most recently runny had hay all over her head where she was buried up in the hay feeder..  Some others were up and milling around, and those that were laying down had a cud.  No muddy butts..

We're keeping a close eye on things, of course..  



Should get a call about that Excenel either today or Monday..  YAY!  Another $100 out of my pocket!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

Another one...same thing as before.  

Went from runny to pretty watery with some mucous in a very short period of time.  We caught it early, though, so she got 3ml Scour Halt orally, 1.5ml Banamine, and 3ml Excenel right away.  She ate a little here and there after that, and was up this morning...but she clearly didn't feel good.  She was chilly from not eating enough hay.

The scour had gone from watery back to runny, though, and wasn't terribly profuse...  She's due for more Scour-Halt and Naxcel later this morning, if she'll let my wife get it in her.  Naxcel is THICK...takes a while to inject, even w/ a 20ga needle.  

The good news is that she's a big healthy hybrid girl with plenty of reserve...both factors are working in her favor right now.

Fingers crossed for a speedy recovery..


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## ksalvagno (Dec 3, 2009)

Sorry to hear that you are having trouble again. I sure hope she does fine.

I use an 18 gauge needle with the thicker stuff. It goes in much easier.


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## Roll farms (Dec 3, 2009)

Sending good *speedy recovery* vibes and I agree, the 18 ga needle on thick stuff really helps.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yep...20ga was the biggest I had, though.  Wish I'd realized how thick that stuff was beforehand.  I'm planning to pick up some 18's this evening.

Ugh..I hate this.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 3, 2009)

force hydration if you must.
goats dehydrate very quickly with diarrhea.

you just can't throw scour halt at the problem....you kinda truly need to know WHY this is happening.

here is some diarrhea info just in case...use as you will.....
of course take what you need from the ifo.....


DIARRHEA

Diarrhea should not be considered an illness in and of itself but rather a symptom of other more serious health problems in goats. Before treating a goat for diarrhea, it is essential to determine why the animal is scouring. Administering a diarrhea-controlling medication can make the situation much worse. Slightly soft stool is sometimes the body's way of ridding itself of undesirable products through the purging effect of diarrhea. For example, one step in the treatment of Floppy Kid Syndrome involves the use of a laxative (Milk of Magnesia) to induce mild diarrhea so that the kid's body is rid of the stagnant toxic milk that has overloaded its digestive system.

There are four major causative agents of diarrhea in goats: bacteria, viruses, parasites, and management practices (overcrowding, poor sanitation, or nutritionally-induced problems).

Diarrhea can be the symptom of many different illnesses, including bloat, ruminal acidosis, laminitis/founder, copper deficiency, aflatoxin poisoning, anaphylactic shock, plant toxicity/poisoning, renal failure, selenium toxicity, coccidiosis, enterotoxemia (clostridium perfringens type C&D), salmonellosis, E. Coli infection, caprine herpes virus, heavy parasite infestation, and goat polio.

However, diarrhea is not always the result of an infectious disease. It can be nutritionally induced by overfeeding on milk or grain, by using poor-quality milk replacers, or by sudden changes in feeding schedules or in the type of feed being offered.

Neonatal Diarrhea Complex, which is the term used to describe diarrhea occurring in kids under one month of age, the cause of which may not ever be diagnosed, usually occurs during kidding season when extremes of weather take place . . . . excessive heat or cold or heavy rains. Kids less than one month of age do have not fully functioning immune systems, so diarrhea can take a heavy toll. Dehydration, acidosis, electrolyte depletion, and hypocalcemia (low blood sugar) can result. The kid becomes weak and can't stand, has a dry mouth and cold extremities, body temperature drops below normal, and the sucking response is often lost. Sick kids should be isolated from the herd, placed in sanitary facilities, and fed in containers that are up and off the ground to prevent further contamination. Administration of oral and subcutaneous electrolytes along with an appropriate broad-spectrum antibiotic is the recommended treatment.

Coccidia and/or worms usually are the cause of diarrhea in kids over one month of age. Both of these conditions are transmitted by fecal-to-oral contact and occur most frequently in intensive management situations where pens and troughs are not kept clean and dry and overcrowding exists.

Adult-onset diarrhea is less common than in kids, but nevertheless is quite possible. Overfeeding on grain (such as shell or cracked corn) can cause severe ruminal acidosis . . . literally shutting down the goat's digestive system . . . and can result in death. Heavy parasite loads can cause diarrhea in adult goats. Almost anything which negatively affects the proper functioning of the goat's rumen may cause scouring.

When a producer sees diarrhea in one of his goats, do not run for a bottle of Pepto-Bismol, Kaeopectate, or Scour Halt. First figure out what is causing the scouring, then treat appropriately. Use a rectal thermometer to take the goat's body temperature. Mix electrolytes (ReSorb or equivalent) and orally drench the animal to prevent dehydration. Administer electrolytes under the skin (subcutaneously) if the goat is already seriously dehydrated. Never use Immodium AD to control diarrhea in a goat. This product can stop the peristaltic action of the gut, bringing the digestive process to a halt, and death in not uncommon under such circumstances. If the scouring is slightly soft stool, let it run its course. When body temperature is above the normal range, use a fever medication and an antibiotic to control infection. Obviously, very watery diarrhea requires a different approach and much more intervention on the producer's part.

Producers should recognize diarrhea as a symptom of a more serious health problem and investigate further to find the cause before running for the Scour Halt bottle. Sometimes, but certainly not always, the diarrhea is helpful in clearing up what is wrong with the goat.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

FarmerChick said:
			
		

> force hydration if you must.
> goats dehydrate very quickly with diarrhea.


Been there, done that..  Not with this one, though, as she was only truly 'watery' for a little while and she's got plenty of reserve.  If we determine at any point that she needs electrolytes, believe me...she'll get'em.  

And for anyone who may be interested in determining whether a goat's hydrated, pinch their upper eyelid.  If it tents a bit instead of snapping back, the goat's dehydrated and needs electrolytes ASAP.  



			
				FC said:
			
		

> you just can't throw scour halt at the problem....you kinda truly need to know WHY this is happening.


If it's the same thing as the other four -- and I'm 99% sure it is -- it's a bacterial gut infection.  We sent fecal samples of the last ones to the University of Kentucky Livestock Disease Diagnostic Lab for cultures, at great expense, and they didn't turn anything up.  Widespread word on the street is that they're pretty much incompetant, though...so we'll probably never know exactly what type of bacteria we're dealing with.

What I do know is that a combination of Scour-Halt, Banamine, and Centiofur saved three after we lost the first one.  So, that's what we did this time, too.  She was on her feet and alert this morning, though chilly..  The one who died laid down quickly and basically never got up again for more than a few minutes at a time, and acted pretty out of it the whole short time between onset and death.  The one who died also didn't eat...we saw this one nibbling last night after the Scour-Halt, Banamine, and Centiofur.  I also saw her bring up a cud..  

I'll keep y'all posted.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 3, 2009)

WOW you sent that to the University and got no good feedback or diagnosis...that stinks.  Yes I would be expecting "something" from all that work.

well sounds like you are on the attack...best anyone can do.

wow they sure die quick when they make up their mind.  I know and yup, it stinks.  

every time I see a runny butt I start that internal panic...til I get it fixed fast..ugh.....so many problems start wtih that dirty butt.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

Just got word that she's been out with the herd pretty much all day.  Last check she was grazing, yarping up cuds..  Wife saw her drinking out of the trough (and, yes, it's good clean water. ) which was EXCELLENT news to me.  Wife went ahead and ran some warm (HOT) water to the barn for everyone else, which they appreciated.  

Also threw some hay, and the sick doe dug right in with everyone else to chow down.  Then she had a little dust-up with her sister and rammed one of the recently-introduced doelings into a wall..  All good signs.   We're still knocking on wood, of course, but the one who died already had three feet in the grave by this point in her extremely rapid progression.

Scours actually seem to be done, in a manner of speaking...she arches her tail like she feels the urge to poo, but doesn't produce anything.  Wife was gonna give more Scour-Halt, but after seeing that...nope.  I've been told the Scour-Halt can plug'em up if you lay it on too heavily, and we don't want that..  The others did this very thing after Scour-Halt, just before they started making light-colored clumpy pellets..  She'll get probios this evening with her Excenel.

Otherwise...I'm gonna continue the Excenel and Probios for probably 3-days, just to ensure a good kill on whatever this bug is.  Last thing I want is for her to start crapping out centiofur-resistant pathogenic bacteria, right?  That would be disasterous, to say the least..  

But, yeah...so far, so good.  Just to be safe, though...y'all keep your fingers crossed a little while longer, if you would please.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 3, 2009)

Here's hoping all goes well and she is fine!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

We did end up giving more Scour-Halt last night, as she started being a bit more..."productive" again, if you will.  Nothing terrible, but this particular bug has the capability of going from nothing terrible to horrific in a matter of minutes...we've seen it happen more than once.  The wether who had it went from dark pellets to light pellets, then clumpy pellets, then a loaf, then runny poo in no more than 5min.  Within an hour, he was making mucousy, blood-tinged dirty water.  Needless to say, it's not something with which you can really take a "wait and see" approach...you just grab the Scour-Halt and go.  

There was no evidence of any fresh scouring on her hiney this morning, which is good.  In fact, she seemed much improved this morning, especially compared to yesterday morning..  Whereas yesterday, she was standing with her head low and her hiney shivering from going the night without eating much hay, she was very much alert and seemed to be itching to come out of the barn today.  I could tell she still hadn't eaten a whole lot overnight, but she wasn't terribly hollow looking..  And not shivering at all..  I think she's still being just a bit picky, which is understandable.  I mean, I don't particularly like to fill up after being food-poisoned either, which is basically the human analog here..  

She did really try to buck me when I gave her Excenel.   

Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed until I see pellets, and I'll keep updating as we go along..


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## ksalvagno (Dec 4, 2009)

That is great that she is still doing fine. Hopefully she will get through this thing soon!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

PELLETS!



I haven't seen it yet, but my wife just informed me that she saw nice pellets from the sick doe..  Like, to the point that if you didn't know she'd had an issue, you'd never know there was anything wrong by the way her pellets look now.

Man..what a relief.  

She's still getting 3 more shots of Excenel, though..  Don't wanna create any of this stuff in a new and improved antibiotic-resistant formula..


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## FarmerChick (Dec 4, 2009)

glad all is on the mend.
sick goats just wear ya down with worry!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2009)

She's back to 100%.  

She actually let me love on her a little bit last night..  When you're sticking one twice a day w/ an 18ga needle, they tend to start avoiding you really quickly.  I always hate that...sucks to have to hurt an animal to help it, and to have it move away when it sees you coming....ugh.  

Needless to say, I was quite happy just to pet on her and sniff faces for a while without having to do anything untoward and run her off...again.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 7, 2009)

That is great that she recovered. Hopefully this has run its course through your herd and it is done now.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2009)

Let's hope.   

(  )


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