# MINERAL MYSTERY'S!!!!!!!!!!!!!



## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 5, 2011)

G'day and welcome to this topic,we have noted with 'interest'the many reference's to the use of minerals for 'all' classes of livestock in various parts of the forums........................

There was a time 'long ago'(before 1900 and possibility up to the 1950's)when 'flockmasters' did not have a need to supplement the stock ,these were the days when stock grazed'mountain pastures','woodland meadows','fields of wildflowers' and 'hedgerows' full of all manner of 'weeds and wild herbs'.This type of grazing provided the complete nutritional needs of the stock.

 We then took these animals to 'far flung foreign lands',confined them and feed them on 'various' mono-cultures,on land 'artificially fertilized',treated with 'herbicides  and cropped 'year in and year out''until the land was exhausted and so the feed became' mineral deficient,over time the stock being 'fed 'this feed also became 'mineral deficient''.

 In an effort to redress this problem the stock are now being fed all manner of 'nitrate's and sulphate's'.For those of you who have read of PAT COLBY'S ideas and concepts(I for one are not'totally wedded ' to all of her ideas)they are an interesting way of approaching this problem,it has taken man a long time to get the stock to where they are today  and it has taken "us" many years to redress the problems associated with poor soils that' lock up' or make minerals un-available in a form the stock can use.

In 'healthy soils' with adequate levels of organic mater and soil biology and carrying a diverse range of grasses and  other plants do have the capacity to supply all your stocks needs.But if,like our soils they have been 'abused' over many years,never rested and continually bombarded with Superfosfate in an effort to get them to produce,whereas instead of improving they have slowly be reduced to areas of 'bare soil' and patches of 'weeds'.

  In spite of our district being 'drought declared' for 10 of the last 11 years(the last 12 months has seen us get what used to be referred to 'normal rainfall')we have managed to reverse all this damage by conservative stocking and by feeding the stock a mixture of "Natural Minerals",which they distribute over the land in there manure in a form that plants can 'take up' straight away.

 There is no way we can 'prove' what we have done has made the difference(but for those of you who saw the photo's in another post), 'something' is happening and the 'soils and the stock' are responding in a manner which cannot be easily explained.

  We feed the mix out in containers (as shown in another post) and because the minerals  are naturally occurring are not effected by getting 'wet',although it can reduce the value of the copper to the animals.There is no P in our mix as this is supplied by 'healthy 'grass.It is said that if you have a Thistle problem you get some goats,so why are goats the answer?Thistles are great 'miners' of minerals,there long tap root goes deep into the soil and brings minerals to the surface in there leaves and stems and goats will wait until 'bud-burst' and them 'mow them down to ground-level,so they gain the maxi-min benifiet from the plants mining.

  Basicly our mix is Sulphur(Yellow or Flowers of Sulphur),Copper Sulphate(Bluestone),Dolamite(a correct balance of Cal and Mag)Sea-weed meal( this contains "everything")and Salt(we use swimming pool salt ,its cheap and being chunky everything else "clings" to it).We are happy to post the recipe or you can sand us a PM if you prefer.

We believe that all livestock producers have their stocks best interest at heart and will do everything they can to have healthy ,happy and productive stock.


We look forward to ALL opinions,comments and whatever,regards,.............T.O.R.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 10, 2011)

The last week has been pretty hectic for us,the rain and heat brought us a" fly wave" and over 10% of the flock were "struck".This ment every head of stock had to be yarded and inspected and treated by "shearing " the infected parts of the sheep and using a spray to "deter ' the flies from coming back and to sooth the inflamed skin..........

  I must to admit to being in a" state of shock" as to the lack of comments ,"positive or negative", either the concepts put forward were accepted on" face value",or the forum feels that this subject is of "no value" to there operation,or everybody is so busy with lambing/kidding etc they have not had time to consider the ideas put forward.........

 I realize that the first post was a bit of a novel, but the subject is a vast one and I believe it is important from both an animal health and an economic one to take time to consider it............

 It would help if you could indicate whether the topic has merit or not as it will help us on the subject matter of "future topic's", if the site is only interested in "light and fluffy",we will not try to introduce subjects which involve some considered thinking and looking at your own operation in some depth.....................T.O.R.


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## freemotion (Feb 10, 2011)

Yikes!  I almost missed this!!!  I was out of state and not by my computer when you posted.  I just read every word of your first post and was confused by the second until I went back and saw the date of the first.  Believe me, I would've replied had I seen it on Feb 5!

I am VERY interested in your recipe for minerals in full detail, and more details on your methods.  I, too, have been working to improve my pasture without the use of chemicals.  It is slow going for me, as I have had a lot of unexpected family responsibilities in the past couple of years.

We bought our little property in March of 2002 and worked for the first 2-3 years just clearing thorns and brush.  It didn't occur to me at the time to get goats to do this job...then when I rescued two of them, I learned quickly and the hard way that wild azaleas are deadly to goats, particularly fast spring regrowth during clearing attempts.  So I hired a bulldozer finish the job, along with other large equipment.

We returned two acres of young forest to pasture, seeded, limed, and hoped for the best.  My main "livestock" was a retired show horse and her two goat companions.  I allowed the mare to overgraze the field, knowing she had very little time left and was very dear to me.  That is why after nine years, I am just getting the land going and productive.

I read some of Joel Salatin's stuff and other natural approaches and have really worked hard at spreading compost (one wheelbarrowful at a time!), and mowing (by hand with a scythe) when the horse died and the field was under-grazed.  

Chickens added to the field made a huge improvement.  Although they do dig dust wallows that are deep enough to be a hazard to horses, I only have goats now (seven.)  The hens concentrated on some of the areas that were so out of control that even the goats couldn't manage to tame them.  They also scratch up the matted leaves that fall from the oaks and would otherwise kill large areas of vegetation.  They de-thatch matted grasses, too.  They've completed obliterated the Japanese beetle infestation we had.  We rarely see a tick anymore.

My next project is to cross-fence with field fencing and livestock panels.  My goats giggled at the electric-only fencing I used to divide a portion of the field last summer when the drought made the fence weak.  My plan is to do at least one section a summer, maybe two, and then use an intense rotational grazing method.

Also on the list of projects is to start cleaning up my wooded area of old wire fencing and other hazards dumped there by previous owners, and to root out the wild azaleas remaining on the property.

I no longer battle the "weeds" in my pasture like I did when I was mostly focused on the horse.  In fact, I spend some time gathering seeds from the largest dandelions and scattering them in the field, and encouraging nettles, and comfrey is protected in the garden until I can multiply it enough to plant it along the fenceline and naturalize it where the goats can reach it for a nibble.

That is my "novel" and saga and I am VERY interested in your mineral mix and recipe and any other information you might care to share.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi Freemotion,thank you "so" much for your story,yes the Wild Azaleas are a real "danger" to the goats as are any of that family.....What is the total area of your farm?..Roughly what % is pasture ,woodland ,etc.?.........Do you intend to enclose all your "woodland "into one lot?...........What about "stockwater",what type of system do you employ now?..................

 When it came to "fence planning",we found that an Aeriel photo with a topographic overlay to be invaluable(You may be able to get something from your Local Land Titles Office,or Google Earth maybe,perhaps someone else can suggest something?).............The main problem we had to get over was the lack of penetration of moisture into the soil when it did rain.........To begin with all of the ridge-tops were fenced off,to protect the timber and any re-growth which could occur(we have planted "no" trees in the paddocks and rely on natural tree regeneration)and have moved to a rotational grazing system to increase plant diversity...........
  .All new fencing is across the slope(except where we wish to "split" the band) to produce bands of pasture which has the effect of slowing the water speed down the slope.It is worth your while to go out into the paddocks when its raining and observe the run-off patterns and to put these observations down on a paddock plan.( you will then be able to observe just where the "drainage lines "are)If there is interest I will post an overhead showing fence lines and then maybe edit a photo to show the fences in situ(I have never attempted this before,so I may need a rainy day to achieve it.)

  I do hope the explanations are able to be easily understood,if not ,a PM or just ask in a post,regards T.O.R.............


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## Bossroo (Feb 11, 2011)

Hi T.O.R.,  thistle may be good to "mine" minerals, however... I have 20 acres of pasture for horses and after 5 years  blackbirds braught in thausands of bull thistle seeds that sprouted and infested the pastures.  So much so that they got to be so tall as over my head in some areas and the mares wouldn't want to go out into those areas of the  pasture due to the " thorns". They got away from me because I had to have knee surgery and was laid up for 8 weeks.  I then had a mouse infestation that you wouldn't believe.  Took 3 years of spraying to get rid of the thistles and mice.  As for star thistle... the only good one is a dead one!  When a horse starts to eat the star thistle, they develope a taste for it, there is a chemical in the star thistle   that destroys an area of the brain( cumilative) the size of a pencil erraser which paralizes the lower jaw and the horse starves to death. There is NO cure. Fiddleneck, lupen,etc.  are another very nasty weeds that causes abortions in a whole list of animals.  Oleander bush is a deadly killer. Just 3 leaves will kill a human child, 5-7 leaves will kill a mature sheep or goat, just a few more will kill a horse. Stinging nettle inflames the lips and gums causing all kinds of pain, therefore they then refuse to graize and go downhill fast. There are many more. So I kill, maime and destroy them on sight.  Much better to use deep rooted plants such as oats, alfalfa, clover, etc. to "mine" the minerals. I feed my mares about a pound +/- of grain per day each . I mix in about a teaspoon full of  minerals + selenium+ vitamin mix , and add a tablespoon of diatomacous earth ( for parasite control first inside the animals, then when it passes through the animals, for fly maggot control when in manure ( I also use fly predator wasps) very effective for fly control, then when the manure breaks down, added calcium to the soil). I also have 1 mineral block and 1 salt block for 11 mares that has been out for about 9 years that has been barely touched.


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## freemotion (Feb 11, 2011)

Having been a horse professional for many years,  I can say that pasture management for horses and for other livestock is very different.  Well, somewhat different.

With intensive rotational grazing, you can run goats through small paddocks to keep certain weeds down.  Then run the horses through.  There is always a need to patrol the pastures and get  rid of certain plants.  I patrol for yew (I am in the suburbs and the birds bring yew into my field) and the azaleas and moutain laurels that grow wild here.  

With the multi-species approach, however, the noxious weeds can be spot-cleared quite easily if they get out of control.  If they do get out of control, yes, I do understand the need to use stronger measures at first, hence the hiring of the bulldozer and large equipment here.  I'd have done things a bit differently with the knowledge I have now, but hey, that is life, huh?


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## freemotion (Feb 11, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> Hi Freemotion,thank you "so" much for your story,yes the Wild Azaleas are a real "danger" to the goats as are any of that family.....What is the total area of your farm?..Roughly what % is pasture ,woodland ,etc.?.........Do you intend to enclose all your "woodland "into one lot?...........What about "stockwater",what type of system do you employ now?..................


We are right smack in a suburban neighborhood with a row of houses with 75' wide lots.  Ours is 243' long, but then we have a triangle of pasture/swamp/woods behind three of the houses and jutting into a christmas tree farm.  That is probably the only reason we are zoned for animals!

The property was extremely neglected when we purchased it and we have put a lot of sweat equity into it.  We have around 4 acres, but one long side of the triangle is a seasonal swamp with what was once likely a seasonal stream.  Someone in the past allowed illegal dumping of waste from a metal shop, so a chunk of the land is unusable, and that is why the stream became a swamp.  It would cost a small fortune to return it to its original state, and this is not something I can do with a shovel by hand, so I consider myself to be an owner of about 2.5 acres with a bit of woods that I could use one day if I choose to fence it.  I may one day fence it for pigs to help root out the azaleas.  The swampy side will make this challenging and I am not really motivated at this time to take on this project.  I still have lots to do to improve my pasture.

The size of the property also limits the number of animals....It was pretty rough in this past drought year with 6 goats (the buck was penned so he didn't impact the pasture), about 30 chickens, a couple of turkeys, and two pigs.  I bought a lot of hay to get through the summer and fall, and the previous year I didn't need purchased hay until late December, as I'd dried and stored what I'd scythed.

As for water, I haul buckets from the house all winter and run a hose in the summer!  It takes about 2 five gallon pails morning and evening in the winter, so it is not too bad.  My dh does it for me now that I blew out my back again.  Until 2 weeks ago, it was a big part of my fitness routine! 

Because the pasture was weedy forest a few years ago, the topsoil is fragile and thin and it is taking some time to build it up.  I wish I had my "before" pics, but they were lost in a computer crash.  The difference is amazing.

I still have a section of the pasture that has not had a heavy layer of compost added, and you can really see the difference.  There are few edible plants and you can see the sand.  We are on many feet of sand, so any rain drains out quickly.  Any puddle is gone within hours of even the heaviest rains.  That makes the need for lots of compost even more urgent.

BTW, the chickens work the compost pile and turn the goat bedding into very nice, rich, black, crumbly compost very quickly.  I even spread it on my lawn, which was a square of dirt when we moved in, edged with raspberry canes (not useful ones) and huge multiflora bushes, and wild cherry saplings (not the good kind, again!)  Now all but one stubborn patch (runoff takes the compost away, but it is improving over time) is a lovely green lawn.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 12, 2011)

Hi Bossroo,you are correct in that "pasture management "for horses is a completely different regime.Generally speaking you are feeding to replace energy,rather than harvesting a commodity.IE:Milk,Meat or Fiber.This means that the minerals are being depleted from the animals in some cases on a daily basis............Goats and Sheep because of there size are only able to take up small amounts of minerals,whereas Cattle due to their size can replace much more,Goats (I believe)suffer more from mineral depletion because because of the "very low" ratios of body fat and most "milkers"have been bred to produce as much milk as possible over a 24 hr period and the ability of the animal to take up sufficient is tested because not only must it replenish reserves for milk production ,but keep itself supplied as well................

 Adding to the animals burden is the fact that much of the bought -in feeds have been produced from mineral deficient soils, artificially fertilised and in some cases over use of herbicides render the feeds of low value for what the farmer is trying to produce from it.

  One answer is to only feed "organically grown",now I appreciate that this option is not an option for everyone due to cost /supply issues and so making available a "natural mineral"mix is the next best option in my view.

 Thank you for your responses and we look forward to further comments and views on this topic........................T.O.R.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 13, 2011)

Hi and thanks for "popping" by,Free has given us some info to think about in relation to he farm..............Her production of Compost is really great (I wish we could produce enough ,but I struggle to get enough for our "vege gardens").....In the areas where it washes out all the time ,is it a drainage line?..If so consider putting some structures across the flow to reduce the speed of the water down the slope,some old logs or a line of "field stone "will do.

  With regard to the "swamp",is Liver Fluke a problem in your area?.........What type of goats do you have Milk,Meat or Fiber?...........What do you see as the "terminal" size of your herd?..........

 Your plans for "rotational" grazing is a good one ,but the success of it depends on the "bounce back" after a grazing cycle.One way to measure this is to set "photo points"in each paddock(currently we have 16 paddocks on our 300 ac sheep block).In the first week of each month we take two photo's in each paddock,a distance shot and a straight down shot to access ground-cover and along with this we use a spreadsheet to record how many days a paddock is grazed and by how many head( at my age I cannot keep all this in my head)......Over time you get a pretty fair idea of how long it takes ,depending on the time of year and the ground-cover shot shows you how far along you are to getting 100% ground-cover 100% of the year.(this may prove difficult if you are "snowed in" for 3 months of the year though)

This Christmas tree farm,does it adjoin your place?Because if the owners would allow it you may be able to take the goats for a walk and clean up weeds etc(I assume your goats are very quiet and they would follow you around picking up "treats "as they went.)This type of activity is very good for the stock,both nutritionally and mentally and it gives the "flockmaster "a quiet time to think about the farm and its future.

 Thanks for your Post and we hope to hear from you again......T.O.R.....


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## Horsefly (Feb 13, 2011)

I've been reading your post and it is quite informative.  I didn't know that thistles pull up minerals from the soil, does this work with all plants with deep tap roots?  I'm also interested in you mineral mix, where do you get the components for it?  I only have a few goats and may possibly get some sheep soon so I don't know how practical it would be to mix my own mineral and feeds.  Where my goats are kept is 75% stage 4 young forest and 25% stage 3 annual grasses and forbs, along with a large pond.  When we moved here 7 yrs ago it was all a grass pasture but not owing anything big enough to cut that much grass the back half became overgrown and eventually the tallow trees took over and became kind of woodsy back there.  Perfect for goats. 
I enjoy reading through your post and picking up tidbits of wisdom from them, I don't have much experiance to reply with but I hope you continue to post for us to read.


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## freemotion (Feb 13, 2011)

I like the idea of taking photos, that would really help as I am quite visual and am always out there with the camera anyways.  I have not had any trouble with liver fluke, but I made sure the fence was a good distance from the swampy area.  It is not "cattail" swampy, but seasonal and has trees in most of it.  Not great trees, but not full-time swamp, either.

My goats are mostly dairy, but I am working on a small herd of dual purpose goats with a bit of boer or maybe pygmy (depending on who got preggers this year) although neither my hubby nor I are ready to eat our goats.  Pigs, yes, chickens, yes, turkeys, yes, goats.......we are just too sentimental about them still.  But we were about the chickens at one point, too, that didn't last long once the flock reached a certain size and the roosters were too many.

As for compost, the goats don't produce nearly as much as the horse did, but I get my neighbors to give me all their grass clippings and leaves for my pile.  They don't appreciate the gold they are dumping over my fence.

And the xmas tree farm....I'd love to walk my goats in it, but that would be pushing it with that neighbor, who has been very good to me.  I bring lots of trimmings to my goats from that property.  He does use herbicides once a year, but I can always tell where he puts it before the plants die, as I can smell it easily and can see the patterns that the machine he uses makes that is different from the mowers.  I bring clippers with me and cut bundles of stuff to bring for the goats when I walk the dogs almost every day.  In winter, I have free access to all the unsold cut xmas trees that I drag home for the goats to munch on.

My herd size is probably at its limit now with 7 goats, unless I get more housing and am able to improve my pasture with rotational grazing.  I do not want to be buying hay during spring, summer and fall, only enough for anyone who is temporarily confined or for brief spells of bad weather.  Or in an exceptional drought year, like we just had.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 14, 2011)

G'day Horsefly,Thank you for your post,in answer to your question about deep rooted perennials.Yes!Most have this ability,there root systems reach deep into the soil for both moisture and food and thats how they are able to re-shoot in the following spring from the crowns that they form.EG Alfalfa is a good example as is Cocksfoot( I think you call it Orchard Grass) and if you are on acid soils as we are, if you choose the right var. of Alfalfa along with some Clovers (whichever one's are suited to your local area)and the broadest range of "Native" species you can encourage will result in a good "all purpose " pasture.(the backbone of our pasture is "native species")....................I would make a special point of looking after your "woodland" if you are going to keep the goats.

If you decide to "sow" Alfalfa,I would try "direct drill on about 20in centers(much like Pasture Cropping)instead of ripping up a perfectly good grass paddock.

Thistles are an interesting group,they invade "bare soil"in the main(Nature appears to hate bare soil)and when they die and decompose this food source is left for the next generations of plants to use.This last year has seen the end of our 10 year drought and all the grasses were really "run down",so it was a race to see who was going to be "successful"in this good season.At first I was trying to slow down the weeds by using "herbicides",but was impacting on our good grasses as well,so I stopped and waited for the Thistles to reach "bud-burst" and with a pair of long -handled shears cut the plants off at ground level.The rationale behind this theory is that this late in the season the plants will not have enough time/energy to re-grow ,flower and seed before the weather changes.So the benifiets of the plants are maintained with out the "seed set"(NOW ,we are talking 300 ac. here no small mean feat)

 If you think about it Annual Grasses are "shallow rooted" and so must gain all of their energy from the upper reaches of the soil profile so they can germinate ,grow ,flower and seed in the short window of time they have,on the other hand "Perennials" must store energy to be able to re-shoot the following spring .So to achieve this they must draw there energy from deeper in the soil profile.

  We would be "really interested" in some detail on your farm ,EG How big? How many head?Is it your "full time " job?Your soil type?Is it sandy or heavy?What type of "grazing management" do you employ at present?How long are you snowed in for in winter?The size of your farm is unimportant ,its the methods you employ that is of most interest to us.

 I will send you a PM on the mineral mix,by doing it this way I hope to "draw out" others on the forum,because by seeing how others run their farms,I am able to gain knowledge as well.

   Once again "thank you" for your reply and we hope to hear from you again in the future...................T.O.R.

PS. I'm sorry it became another novel.To Free I will answer your post in another post.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 14, 2011)

G'day and thanks for stopping by,

           Thank you Free,so do you milk your does for the house ?..Is there enough for some butter and cheese?

  Define "cattail swamp" for me (never heard the term before)

Glad you get the "stuff"from the Xmas Tree Farm,the goats would love it as it would be a nice change from hay for them.

I would go for 5 x1/2 ac paddocks(just roughly a 1/2 ac in size)and each year I wold try to lock one up each spring and let it run to seed and in the late "fall" put the stock in to clean it up and "trample"the rest to add to your "organic layer".This will improve your "bio-diversity" of species and over summer birds will carry seeds of other desirable plants and leave them behind.

 At some point in the future we must chat about what you feed in your hay /grain mix.

 The photo thing is a real "eye opener" and over time you come to appreciate the improvement you have gained in the health of your country.

 Did you get the PM's OK.

 well enough for now ,before we end up with another novel............T.O.R.


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## Bossroo (Feb 14, 2011)

Google " cattail swamp" , " tumbleweed", " alkali soil",  "hardpan", " rolling hills" ( 1 ' to 5'high) , salt on the surface where water puddles finally dry out and " ground squirels" and you will find for some interesting reading.  We have all of these and then some  here in my area of central California. That and about 6.5-8 inches of annual rainfall from late Nov. to mid Feb. then  maybe a shower or two into March/ April.  the "hardpan" is a mostly calcium + other mineral layer ranging from on the soil surface to several feet below and ranging from 3" to 9" inches thick. It is virtually impervious to water perculation and about impossible for any roots to get through. Winter ( Dec- Feb)temperatures are in the mid/ upper 20*s and sometimes down to 17*but mostly in the  30*- 40* with fog  where you do not see the sun for about a month. Spring/ Summer/ Fall is sunny and bright and not a cloud in sight, where the daytime temperatures are in the upper 90*s to 105* and sometimes to 117* dropping 10* to 20* at night. Virtually all grasses are brown and dormant from mid May to mid/late Nov..  Basically a high desert. They don't call California " The Golden State" for it's gold either.   Our 20 acre property had only ONE  centuries old Valley Oak tree on it on a bank of a dry creek bed.  About 12 years ago I hired 3 D9s to deep rip the soil down to 2 feet then level to grade the pastures.  I planted oats, wheat,  alfalfa, trefoil clover, burr clover, fillarie, endofite free fescue, and a native grass mixture.  I have to feed about 100 tons of alfalfa hay plus 15 tons of corn/ oats/ barley to my horses per year and all of their produced manure I spread out into the pastures. The pasture grass yield has about trippled now.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 14, 2011)

G,day BR,thanks for your reply ,"my god",you must qualify for the title of CHAMPION FARMER...................To run an operation on that sort of country  makes our farm look like heaven(in spite of our drought)....

 What type of "horses" do you breed?..I imagine they would be pretty tough types and would relish any softer environment in which to work

   Look forward to hearing from you again................T.O.R..


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## Bossroo (Feb 14, 2011)

Well, thanks T.O.R. ! I was born and raised on a farm. my dad was a Vet. and I have raised all types of animals by myself for the past 5 decades. I raise and breed Straight Russian Arabian horses for the past 38 years... I imported a Straight Russian Arabian daughter of the 1980 undefeated World Champion Stallion in the Salon du Cheval Paris, France show ( *Abdullah [ Patron x Psikhea by Arax])  and out of his own mother ( Psikhea by Arax). This led me to  a barn/ pasture full of her sons, daughters and their decendants. The Russians imported their Arabian horses originally  from the Arabian desert, England, France than during WW2 from Poland. Then they breed their horses at the Terk Stud of the steppes of the Caucases mountains. So they are very taugh.  My horses are very tall for Arabians... from 15.2h to  16.1+ h. Last year I sold the horses all over the US and 2 provinces of Canada.


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## Horsefly (Feb 15, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> We would be "really interested" in some detail on your farm ,EG How big? How many head?Is it your "full time " job?Your soil type?Is it sandy or heavy?What type of "grazing management" do you employ at present?How long are you snowed in for in winter?The size of your farm is unimportant ,its the methods you employ that is of most interest to us.


Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, been busy.  Thanks for all the info on different grasses and plants, we have large clover patches that come back every year and the goats love them.  I might try seeding some alfalfa or like plants this spring, do you get seed for native grasses or do you just keep out the udisirables and the native plants spring up.  I only have 6 goats at the moment (just downsized from 9 and am trying to sell another), so we are really small scale.  They are mostly for pets/weed control and in the future for milk.  They are on around 4 acres of land with a large pond in the middle.  The pond will overflow the spillway a couple times a year flooding the front half of the land and washes up some silt and leaf litter.  The dirt is mostly clay here but were we dump the shavings and stuff when we clean out the stalls is in a spot where when it floods it gets spread around a bit.  The rest of it we compost and use in our gardens.  We don't get snow here, unless you count the 1 inch acumulation we get every 10 years or so lol!  We don't do much in the way of management other than keeping the front half mowed down in the summer and pruning the trees if needed.  The last few years we have been concentrating on fixing up the barn.  They say a picture is worth 1000 words and I though I had some pictures but can't find them right now.  They must be on the other computer, I'll see if I can't find them and post them tomorrow or a few days.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 17, 2011)

G.day Horsefly,It was 'great' to hear back from you,your reply has raised a few questions for us ,so we will work our way through them and try to answer yours on the way through .

With your clover is it Sub -Clover or White/Red Clover?..Sub Clover can cause some reproductive issues in goats/sheep.If you have difficulty working out which you have ,maybe you can get a farmer from nearby to help ,or take a sample of it to your produce/rural store and ask them..

As for native grasses you may find them "lurking "in the "woods",in the back half where you graze the goats, is it split into a couple of paddocks?..Do you have a local office of your Dept  of Agriculture?..If so see if you can get one of there "plant experts"(Botanist)to pop over in the spring and have a look and tell you what you have got and maybe leave you some stuff to help you identify the different species.(Down here the Dep of Ag run 1/2 day workshops on a local farm and farmers(lge and small)can come along "free"to learn about local species,both native and exotic.....Once you have done a few you get a pretty good idea of what you have got on your place and you get to met "like-minded" people in your area,as a bonus ..

The way we have built our native grass populations and species diversity is to allow some paddocks to run to seed each year and we have set aside with some out-side funding areas which contain "rem'anent populations ".In these areas which are only grazed to "knock -down "the seed and trample it into the soil,the birds and the wind are also spreading the seed to adjacent paddocks.I may have said before but our native grasses are one of our "biggest assets".

With your "clay soils"it may-be worthwhile at a latter date to get a "wheeled tractor" to deep rip with a single "tyne" along the contour and give it a good dose of Gypsum to help open up the soil and to gain better "water" penetration in the soil.

  Your country must be a little like ours "temperature wise" as we get  a couple of "light snow falls" each year.

  We look forward to the pic's when you get a chance to post them.( I had better stop now as its becoming another "novel")

  Thanks again for the post ,Best Wishes T.O.R.............................


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## alliebaba (Feb 19, 2011)

Hello old ram...would that recipe for the mineral lick that you speak of be the one out of Pat Coleby's book healthy sheep? I have all her books and have read each one from cover to cover, those books are like my bibles. I would like to apply her principals to my paddocks but it isn't possible atm.

When I first moved here I wanted to buy decent pasture seed to sow and asked about native grasses at the ag store and they looked at me as if I had two heads...I was afraid to ask anywhere else after that, but I still like the idea of native pasture.

By the way I am Aussie too...

I only have 5 acres but I dream big.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 19, 2011)

G'day Mate ,how ya go'in?(alliebabba)..Yes ,the recipe has been developed for Pats 'original ' one but we have made 'subtle' changes over the years,but it is the same ingredient list.(we have a first edition ,printed in 1983 Australian Goat Husbandry)

 Where abouts are you from and where have you settled ?You must post and tell us all about your farm and stock (with pic's).

  It seems like up there is like down her used to be 20 odd years ago on the suject of encouraging 'native grasses".We are so lucky we had a good basis to begin with as much of our country was to 'steep' to plough (but they tried anyway in some places)...........We are on the Granite country east of Canberra at the base of the Monaro,as you can see from the Avittar we run English Suffolk's(much to the 'disgust' of the Fine-wool Merino Breeders who are our neighbors).

Now I will make you 'really homesick',we have Kangroo Grass, Wallerby Grass,Native Sorghum,Weeping Rice Grass,Red Leg Grass,Hairy Panic and all manner of native Orchids and I almost forgot Blue Devils.Do you still remember the smell of the Euc's after it rains?

  Do you have LANDCARE or something similar up there?..You may have a group involved in 'restoring native vegetation'Try you local Dep of AG Office.

                                      Great to hear from you ,do post again.T.O.R...............


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## alliebaba (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi again old ram,
I am south east of SA. I have Damara sheep......thinking of getting a Dorper ram but un-decided.
I really like the look of the Barbados Blackbelly sheep that a few of the members have on here but I'm pretty sure there are none here in Australia. But then again Damaras only came into the country 10 or so years ago...so maybe one day.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 20, 2011)

G,day alliebaba,I only realized you are  from AUS when I saw you in the New Members list.I don't think there are many of us on this forum though....But they seem like a really nice group and fun to be around.....................T.O.R.


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## Beekissed (Feb 21, 2011)

My livestock seemed to thrive on salt and kelp meal as their only added mineral source.  I'd recommend it for any livestock.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 21, 2011)

G'day BK,I would be interested to hear a little about your soils.EG

          PH : acid or alkaline?
          Calcium /magnesium ratio?

  It could be your copper is being supplied by your "kelp meal".
  If your soils are on the alkaline side you may benefit from some extra 'Sulphur'?

   Thank you for replying as I am interested in all views on the topic ,also your reasons for following the course you have taken.

         ........................................................T.O.R................................


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## Beekissed (Feb 21, 2011)

I have no idea about my soils!    I just provide the mix and see how they do....and they do well, so I didn't see a reason to change it.  

Not really big time farmin' here, so I'm sure others in my area may have different results.  My dairy cow and sheep benefited from this regimen but not sure if that would apply to other livestock as well.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 21, 2011)

Hi BK,Thanks for that ,is does not matter what scale your farm is really,but the way you go about it of interest ...............Feeding Sea-weed meal will over time solve a whole 'heap of problems".....I have seen on TV doc's cattle enter the ocean to be able to get to sea-weed growing on the sea shore and in Europe the goats will go right down to the ocean edge to get sea-weed growing on the rock ledges...

 I'm still working my way through the journal and about two more goes and I should have caught up,It has been such an interesting "read"............................................................T.O.R.................


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## Horsefly (Feb 21, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> With your clover is it Sub -Clover or White/Red Clover?
> 
> As for native grasses you may find them "lurking "in the "woods",in the back half where you graze the goats, is it split into a couple of paddocks?..Do you have a local office of your Dept  of Agriculture?
> 
> ...


I believe the clover we have is red/white clover.  I've never heard of sub clover before so I'll have to go look that up.  
Those pictures have lent to be harder to find than I expected.  I'm trying to look through some old CDs of pictures we have see if I can find one from each season. 
My older sister actually did a 4-H plant science contest several years ago and won first in state, so she should know what we have out there.  I know its alot of bahia grasses but am not sure what else.  I'll have to have her go out with me and see what we can find.  What would you say is the best method of controling the nonnative plants?  i.e. hand pulling, chemicals, mowing, etc.
What does Gypsum do for the soil?  I like the idea of putting rifts in the dirt to help with the water.
Currently the whole area is one big pasture but we are working on refencing some of it and I want to fence the back wooded half from the front half eventually.  Thanks for all your tips, I find them most interesting.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 23, 2011)

G,day HF,Boy are you lucky ,who'd thought a "sister" would come in so handy LOL...........If she comes in the Spring ,try to get her back in the Autumn also ,that way you will have a list of warm season and cool season species.....................We don't get rid of anything the sheep will eat,and lots of things they dont, as it protects the ground from "extremes" Native or Exotic,the aim is to have the max. amount of diversity in the pasture........................Gyspum is also known as Claybreaker,it stops the clay particles sticking together  and allows the water to penetrate the soil.....................

  Thanks again for 'posting',as I enjoy the chats ,Best Wishes .T.O.R.


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## Horsefly (Feb 24, 2011)

My sister is home every weekend so it shouldn't be hard for me to get her out .  And great news, I have the pictures!  I couldn't find a spring photo so you will have to wait till it starts budding out here but it should only be 3 or 4 weeks.
This is the back half in the summer





Fall




and winter/very early spring just starting to green up.  You can see in this picture the overspill to the pond.  It floods over and down a series of ditches out to the neighbors pond which floods over to the next neighbors pond so on and so forth.




Ignore the goat here, but you can see in the background some of the ditches I was talking about and you can also see what the majority of the front half of the pasture looks like.


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## freemotion (Feb 24, 2011)

That goat is not to be ignored!!!!


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## Horsefly (Feb 24, 2011)

He is a pretty boy isn't he , and for sale too.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 25, 2011)

G'day Horse fly.thanks for the pic's,thats a 'serious pond',do you irrigate your 'summer pasture' from it ?..........Are the woods in the 'background yours?............They would make a great place for the goats to go in the 'summer heat'..........Get Sis to have a good look in those woods you may find some very useful grasses in there.A couple of years ago we had a botanist come out to look at our pastures and she counted over 40 species and this was in the middle of our drought and it the middle of winter.

 I am sure when you do some internal fencing and are able to rest some of your country you will be surprised what you find just "pops up".

 Thanks again for the photo's and the post .always glad to hear from you...regards ...T.O.R....................

  PS.how much Nub is in that buck?He looks to have two 'cuts of Boar to me ....


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## Horsefly (Feb 27, 2011)

Our property goes up to those tall trees in the back.  Its really just a line of tall trees that opens to pasture behind us.  It rains alot here and is humid so there is never a need to irrigate here.  The land kind of naturally refertilizes itself with the goats and the pond flooding over a couple times a year.  The line of trees you see in the last picture is where the goats all go to lounge around mid-day every day, they've dug themselves dirt pits at the bases of the trees .
The goat in the picture is 100% Fainting/Myotonic Goat.  He is a big hefty dude.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry Bossroo ,I just went back to page one and see that you do use a mineral mix ........................Just out of interest what does it consist of and in what form is your selenium ?..................The selinium question is because I may have to start "dosing"our sheep to improve conception rates and growth rates..................T.O.R.


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## Bossroo (Feb 28, 2011)

The Old Ram-Australia said:
			
		

> Sorry Bossroo ,I just went back to page one and see that you do use a mineral mix ........................Just out of interest what does it consist of and in what form is your selenium ?..................The selinium question is because I may have to start "dosing"our sheep to improve conception rates and growth rates..................T.O.R.


For sheep I used a commercial salt/ mineral blocks with selenium formulated for sheep. Sorry, but I don't have the label handy. The sheep would lick the blocks quite often. Interesting part is that my horses still have their same block from 10 years ago and hardly touch it.  We have a quite high salt content to our soils, so I give them some vitamin/ minerals + selenium with their daily grain ration. I also add about a tablespoon of diatomatous earth (exoskeletons of diatomes...comes in 50 pound bags used as a filtering medium for swimming pools, also as bug control in grain storage elevators. Food grade is also available , but much more expensive.) to this mix for the last 30 years. I do this for internal parasite then for fly control for all classes of animals ...   First their sharp edges will slice and dice the paracites in the animal's intestines, then when the diatomatous earth is then expelled in their feces, they will then slice and dice the outer skin of the  fly maggots whereupon they dehydrate and die. I also use fly predators ( a small wasp about 1/8" that  preys upon fly larvae only) which lay their eggs into the fly larvae then upon hatching will eat the fly maggots inside out. I virtually eliminated the fly population on our ranch.


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## The Old Ram-Australia (Nov 26, 2015)

G'day, here is a thread from 2011 which you may enjoy.From memory it was about this time we had a "crash and burn" with our computer and at the time I was not in a financial position to "rush out and replace".Anyway we can restart the conversation from here again if you like? T.O.R.


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