# Chocolate rabbits



## Rilly10

I was wondering about the chocolate color in rabbits...if you breed choc x choc will you get all chocolates? Say I had a chocolate buck but couldn't get a doe...what other colors cross well with chocolate? Is it recessive?


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## therealsilkiechick

i have solid and broken choc mini rexes. i can answer part of that from what info i have read or from my first breeding.

Chocolate and Lilac can be bred together as Lilac is the dilute of Chocolate. Chocolate may also be bred to Black or to Blue. If they must be bred into the agouti group, then Lynx would be the only choice. Breeding to Castors will result in Castors with incorrect ear lacing and top color.

Chocolate: Best bred to black, blue, chocolate, lilac. Use caution when breeding to lynx (can result in poor lynx and the unshowable chocolate castor, but both chocolate and chocolate castor can be useful in a lynx breeding program, if that is your aim), opals (can again result in poor lynx and chocolate castors), and red (can result in poor reds and unshowable chocolate castors, but some breeders breed chocolate into red in order to hide the undesirable smut...the chocolate coloured smut hides easier in the red coat than black coloured smut would). Avoid breeding to californian, chinchilla, sable, and seal as it can result in unshowable colours.

choc x choc should produce all choc i think or at least most of the litter if the parents are not hiding unwanted genes. i'm still learning the genetic part not sure if reccesive or dominant on that color never checked on it.

we don't have choc bucks so before i found info above this is what we did- we bred a castor to a broken choc her litter came out broken choc, broken castor and solids of both also. we bred a choc to a tort and had brokens and solids of different colors but we lost the babies from being cold on wire. most of hers were broken and solid brown and black colors and one or 2 white ones when born.

hopefully someone else with better genetic knowledge can come along and help u more but maybe this info will at least help u to try to answer ur questions till someone else comes along to help ya.


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## Rilly10

Thanks so much that was VERY helpful! I am on a waiting list for hopefully a chocolate pair, but if I can only get the buck, or get him well before a doe is ready I was wondering what other colors might work with him! 

One more question...if you breed to a lilac or black would you get each in the litter, or could you get other colors also?

I get chicken colors but rabbits confuse me still!


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## dmiravalle

there is a book floating around out there on Netherland Dwarf color genetics (Which applies to all colors) it will help a lot.  

But generally, breeding Choc to Choc, you can weaken you color as well as your type.  You should look to type first.  I usually breed choc to black if the color is weaking or nice deep blue.


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## Rilly10

dmiravalle said:
			
		

> there is a book floating around out there on Netherland Dwarf color genetics (Which applies to all colors) it will help a lot.
> 
> But generally, breeding Choc to Choc, you can weaken you color as well as your type.  You should look to type first.  I usually breed choc to black if the color is weaking or nice deep blue.


What color possibilities will you get from chocolate to blue?


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## tortoise

Rilly10 said:
			
		

> I was wondering about the chocolate color in rabbits...if you breed choc x choc will you get all chocolates? Say I had a chocolate buck but couldn't get a doe...what other colors cross well with chocolate? Is it recessive?


Black versus Chocolate is the "B" gene.

Chocolate is the recessive (bb)  When bred to another chocolate, you will get only chocolate.

If you breed chocolate (always homozygous) to a heterzygous black (Bb) you can get chocolate, but if bred to homozygous black (BB) you will only get only black.

The "D" gene (diluation) can change the appearance of black to blue and chocolate to lilac.  Dilution is also recessive (dd).


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## Bossroo

I love chocolate rabbits. On Easter Sunday, I always eat the ears first.


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## tortoise

Bossroo said:
			
		

> I love chocolate rabbits. On Easter Sunday, I always eat the ears first.


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## tortoise

Rilly10 said:
			
		

> dmiravalle said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there is a book floating around out there on Netherland Dwarf color genetics (Which applies to all colors) it will help a lot.
> 
> But generally, breeding Choc to Choc, you can weaken you color as well as your type.  You should look to type first.  I usually breed choc to black if the color is weaking or nice deep blue.
> 
> 
> 
> What color possibilities will you get from chocolate to blue?
Click to expand...

Chocolate would be 

A_,bb,C_,D_,E_,enen

Blue would be

A_,B_,C_,dd,E_,enen

If your blue is homozygous for black (BB) you would only get black /blue, but all would carry the gene for brown/lilac

If your blue is heterozygous for black (Bb) you could get black/blue or brown/lilac.

If your chocolate is homozygous for dilution (DD) you would not get blue or lilac, but all would carry the gene for dilution (blue/lilac)

If your chocolate is heterozygous for dilution (Dd), you could get both undiluted (black, brown) and diluted (blue/lilac)

The only way to really know what you would get is by breeding.  A few test breedings will tell you what your rabbit's genotype is.



> But generally, breeding Choc to Choc, you can weaken you color as well as your type.


That does that mean?!  Breeding chocolate to chocolate (the recessive gene is always homozygous) means that you will only get chocolate or lilac out of the offspring until you breed black back into it.  Color and type are inherited separately (fundamental law of genetics).

By breeding to blue you are adding in the black gene and introducing the dilution if it was not there already.  Of course it will produce a greater variety of color.  (It WILL produce black, and MIGHT produce dilutes (blue, lilac).


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## terri9630

Bossroo said:
			
		

> I love chocolate rabbits. On Easter Sunday, I always eat the ears first.


That was my first thought when I saw the title to the thread.


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## tortoise

terri9630 said:
			
		

> Bossroo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love chocolate rabbits. On Easter Sunday, I always eat the ears first.
> 
> 
> 
> That was my first thought when I saw the title to the thread.
Click to expand...

Me too.


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## dmiravalle

When you breed choc to choc multiple generations you do not get the dark chocolate that most breeds want.  They can lighten up, also if you look at the genes it is possible to (depending on your chocolates) to throw the dilute Lilac color if each parent is carrying a recessive dilute d allele which changes your chocolate to lilac whenever it is inherited homozygously by the bunny.  

But lilac's are gorgeous on one of my favorite angora colors.


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## dmiravalle

I just saw ya posted the recessive stuff, yeah!!  Sorry bout that.


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## ChickenPotPie

From my understanding, simply put, Choc x Choc = Choc or Lilac depending one what each parent is hiding.  That said, genetics can be fun and surprise you.    I've got a Black buck with a uninteresting pedigree as far as colors go but when I breed him to my does that also have very ordinary color backgrounds, I get a rainbow of colors from him.  Fun.  lol

I don't get the idea that Choc x Choc gets you lighter colored Chocs.  To me, that sounds like the myth that breeding blue to blue gets you lighter blues so people suggest breeding back to black every now and them. Or that breeding dilute to dilute will give you an increased percentage of rabbits with white nails.  That is not so.  You cull for color and nails just as you would cull for anything.  

I've seen Polish, that were bred Blue x Blue for generations, that almost looked black in the shade of the show room because they were so darn dark blue.  The breeder also did not have problems with white nails because she refused to breed rabbits with mismarked nails.  White nails are just bad genes.  You cull for it.  The breeder proved the myths wrong by just culling to get her colors deeper and correct nail color.


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## cattlecait

dmiravalle said:
			
		

> there is a book floating around out there on Netherland Dwarf color genetics (Which applies to all colors) it will help a lot.
> 
> But generally, breeding Choc to Choc, you can weaken you color as well as your type.  You should look to type first.  I usually breed choc to black if the color is weaking or nice deep blue.


The color won't have anything to do with the type unless you're not selecting on body type too. Try to keep chocolate bred to the four basic colors - blue, black, chocolate, and lilac. Keep in mind if you breed blue in to chocolate or lilac you run a chance of the eye color possibly changing up on you, but its unlikely.


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## cattlecait

ChickenPotPie said:
			
		

> From my understanding, simply put, Choc x Choc = Choc or Lilac depending one what each parent is hiding.  That said, genetics can be fun and surprise you.    I've got a Black buck with a uninteresting pedigree as far as colors go but when I breed him to my does that also have very ordinary color backgrounds, I get a rainbow of colors from him.  Fun.  lol
> 
> I don't get the idea that Choc x Choc gets you lighter colored Chocs.  To me, that sounds like the myth that breeding blue to blue gets you lighter blues so people suggest breeding back to black every now and them. Or that breeding dilute to dilute will give you an increased percentage of rabbits with white nails.  That is not so.  You cull for color and nails just as you would cull for anything.
> 
> I've seen Polish, that were bred Blue x Blue for generations, that almost looked black in the shade of the show room because they were so darn dark blue.  The breeder also did not have problems with white nails because she refused to breed rabbits with mismarked nails.  White nails are just bad genes.  You cull for it.  The breeder proved the myths wrong by just culling to get her colors deeper and correct nail color.


Very, very true! Breeding those colors to eachother does NOT weaken the color at all. White toenails genetically create a broken (weird, right?) but most don't think of them that way. The only way to get broken is to have other broken (or white toe-nailed) rabbits in the last two generations.


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## ChickenPotPie

cattlecait said:
			
		

> White toenails genetically create a broken (weird, right?) but most don't think of them that way. The only way to get broken is to have other broken (or white toe-nailed) rabbits in the last two generations.


  Really?  lol  I'd never heard or thought about that.  So, if you only have solids in the background that have white nails, and you get a broken, as you said, what determines the color percentage of the resulting brokens?  

I've "discovered" that color percentage and pattern is linked to the modifiers (am I using that term correctly?) that is found in the ancestry.  Say, one broken with 10% color is bred to a solid with no brokens in the background.  Any broken offspring will have about the same percentage of color and similar pattern (like half butterfly, spot pattern or blanket pattern).

I'm wondering about these things because I'm not great with genetics (I do have that ND color book - just need to read it.  lol) but I'm working on a broken project with a friend - trying to get heavier patterned JWs on the West coast.

Sorry if I just hijacked this thread.  >.<  At least the nail color does have a little something to do with Chocolates and Dilutes.

Back on topic....One more note - I don't know what breed you're working with Rilly10 but do make sure you know what colors are recognized by the ARBA before you get far into it or just plan to cull for unrecognized colors if you feel you need to.  For example, Polish are recognized in Black, Blue, REW, BEW, Broken, and Chocolate but not Lilac.  It's being worked on and some keep their Lilacs but I'm just sayin'.  

I have one unrecognized brood doe because she's got awesome type and wool and I do get recognized colors from her and I'm trying to make more of her color because I want to work on it and obtain a COD just in case the current holder does not pass for some reason.  So, unrecognized colors are not always bad but they do take up cage space.  Just something to think about.


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## cattlecait

I heard it from a judge, because I raise Harlies and there's a big problem with white toenails in the Japanese (orange w/ blue, black, chocolate, or lilac) and he told us that we're essentially raising a bunch of tri-color rabbits. He also specified that white toenails are different than toenails with no color. 

I'm not sure about what you'd get breeding them, I personally had Magpies (white w/ blue, black, chocolate, lilac) so white toenails didn't really matter. It'd make sense though to breed a rabbit with white toenails to a lightly patterned broken and you'd get some moderate to heavy brokens. I always considered a rabbit with white toenails to be a VERY heavily patterned broken, but would breed them as a solid. I'm also silly though and considered any rabbit over 50% to qualify in my barn as a solid.

As I see it, it has something to do with color, so I don't think we hijacked it too bad 

I had Britannias for a long time and they have lots of unrecognized colors floating around, so our brood does mostly were unrecognized colors but they had beautiful type so I just showed the showables and sold the goofy colors as brood stock. Also though I had a Blue Magpie Harlequin who had brown eyes and swept her class at every show no problem, no one ever noticed. I just never registered her.


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## tortoise

ummm....  so a solid colored rabbit is recessive homozygous enen.  Punnit square proves a solid x solid rabbit cannot produce colored.  Unless there is another en gene?

I saw wwenen on one pedigree, no one could tell me what it meant.


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## cattlecait

I don't know much about the letters, numbers, etc. From what I understood from the judge, because they had white toenails, that genetically made them a broken, not a solid. Of course Harlequins are weird so who knows, it might not even apply to regular colors.


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## ChickenPotPie

Yeah, that's a bit hard for me to wrap my brain around.  Interesting, though.


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## tortoise

cattlecait said:
			
		

> I don't know much about the letters, numbers, etc. From what I understood from the judge, because they had white toenails, that genetically made them a broken, not a solid. Of course Harlequins are weird so who knows, it might not even apply to regular colors.


So it would be a broken with over 90% color?  I don't know the first thing about harlequins, only the showable colors in my breed.  I don't even know what genotype harlequins have.

Reminds me to check some rabbit toenails...


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## cattlecait

That's what I took it to mean, an extremely overly colored broken.


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## Bunnylady

IMO, the judge is all wet. White toenails in the Harlequin are not caused by the broken gene (En), they come from one of the Dutch genes (Harlies and Dutch share a lot of history). You don't just get white toenails, the whole toe or paw may be white, and you can get face white too. The broken gene will not give you a little snip of white on the nose, or a blaze; I have seen many variations of facial white in my Harlies (I've been breeding both Japs and Mags for over twenty years). There is a big difference between the "booted" appearance of a heavily colored broken and the white "noses and toeses" that pop up on Harlies. Annoyingly, the gene that causes the white appears to be closely linked to at least one of the marking genes, because it is often the really well-marked kits in the litter that wind up with the white markings on them! 

A few white hairs on a Harlequin does not make a tricolor, no more than a broken Tort is a tri! You can breed white-clawed rabbits to any solid color you like, and you won't get brokens, because the two genes are totally different. I have had white claws in my Jersey Woolies for 20+ years,  and have never had a broken until I _ bought_ a broken buck last year. 



> I saw wwenen on one pedigree, no one could tell me what it meant


(w) is the wide-band gene. The Wide band gene makes the light colored band on the body hairs of an Agouti wider than normal. A rabbit that is ww would have very little surface color, almost like a very smutty orange. enen would be non-broken. And just fyi, harlequin is ej.


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## cattlecait

Bunnylady, thank you for explaining it all, I'm glad I know that now. I don't remember who the judge was, I wish I did, it wasn't someone from our area.

Question though - isn't a Harlequin color used as a "solid" to make tri-colors though? A tort is a shaded variety...I'm just asking.


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## ChickenPotPie

Torts are Selfs but don't ask me why.  lol  I'd love to hear the explanation, too.  I have a lot to learn.


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## Bunnylady

Genetically, Tort is aaB_C_D_ee. It is Self-based (as opposed to Agouti- or Tan-based), but is usually placed in the Shaded group because groups are organised by appearance, not genetic makeup. Some Torts are very red on the back, and very black on the sides and face. If you overlay a Broken pattern on that (particularly a spotted Broken pattern), you can get a rabbit with distinct areas of red and black, which might at first look like a Tri. I once had a Broken Blue Tort Mini Rex  doe like that. On her sides were these nice little blue spots, and she had several fawn colored areas on her back. You had to really look at her head and ears to realize that she actually was a Tort, and her coloring only resembled that of the true Tricolor, i.e. Broken Harlequin. Had she been a real Tri, she would have been showable, because MR Tricolors are recognised in Black, Blue, Chocolate, and Lilac varieties. However, the Blue Tort is/was not a recognised variety, so as a Broken Blue Tort (which is what she was) she wasn't showable. No judge would have accepted an argument that she was "technically" a Tri, they simply would have DQ'd her as a non-standard variety.


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## willowacrerabbitry

Hello..... just registered today, but I have been lerking and reading for a while now.


I raise Mini Rex rabbits.... and have a litter here that is Chocolate x Chocolate breeding. None of mine are pedigreed so I am not sure what all colors are in the background....but from this breeding, I got 5 Chocolate, 1 Lilac and One white.



Chocolates are my FAVORITE!!!


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## willowacrerabbitry

pictures of parents and babies can be seen on my website:

willowacre.weebly.com


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