# Horns? Dis-bud? Polled?



## Southern by choice (Dec 29, 2013)

Southern by choice submitted a new resource:

Horns? Dis-bud? Polled? - Advantages and disadvantages



> *Horned, Dis-Budded, and Polled Goats*
> 
> Goat keepers have strong opinions about leaving horns intact or disbudding.
> 
> ...



Read more about this resource...


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 29, 2013)

Good information. 

It should help people make informed decisions for their herd.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 29, 2013)

Thank You.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2014)

I just wanted to say again, I enjoyed your article, and the timing of it was key.  I had been asked by a new breeder to help disbud their goats.  I said yes. I hate disbudding goats. I suggested they read your article.

You mentioned in your article a fellow herdsman had offered to disbud your mini Mancha, I think that was probably me unless someone else offered as well. 

When you decided to get your vet to do it, I was actually quite relieved.  I offered because I want to support fellow breeders, but I hate disbudding goats.  I think it is the part of breeding I hate the most.  Our vet told us that he hates to do it as well.

But, we consider it a necessary evil.  We would not even consider leaving horns on our goats.

I was contacted recently by a new breeder who has had 8 kids in the month of Dec.  She asked us would we be willing to help her with disbudding.  Of course, I said yes but like I said, I hate disbudding my own.

I thought I was off the hook.  She had a vet out on Tuesday to help with a kidding, and I told her "here's a crazy idea, why don't you get him to disbud them" .

He could not do it then, because he did not have a tip small enough to do a Nigerian.

Interestingly enough, the vet told her that he thought that it was better to disbud without sedation, that sedation was a bigger stress on the animal.

I've thought that myself, but I've never  heard a vet say it.

As much as I hate it, I guess I'm disbudding somebody elses goats on Sat.

If you want to watch, to see for yourself what it's like, you know where I'm doing it, and you are welcome to come observe. It may give you a new perspective.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 1, 2014)

Yes that was you! Thank You! I still would love to see and learn the method without sedation too. I don't know if I could do it...   If it becomes something we have to regularly do than I guess I would have to. 

*It is very gracious of you to offer this much needed service in the goat community!* 

It is true many feel it is riskier to sedate, yet I think it also depends on the vet. I know some that will do mild and some full sedation. I also have seen so many different "thoughts" from different vets about _when_ to dis-bud and I think it can get very confusing for many who are new in the goat world. Understanding the timing of disbudding IMO is also very important. Waiting too long will usually end up with scurs or a bad disbudding. Some vets will not do a disbudding _after_ 10 days with the exception of doelings that sometimes take a few weeks or so. One of the vets here in our region absolutely will not because of the higher incidence of scurs developing. 

Not all vets are very experienced with disbudding, they may be great at diagnosis etc but disbudding may not necessarily be their "forte". IMHO I think there are many breeders that are better at the procedure than many vets. 

Asking questions and knowing what to ask is important. Unfortunately sometimes vets can give bad info, yet because they are the vet .... well, you know.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 1, 2014)

Just saw the edit... I'm a slow typer!

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank You! I really would love to come! I will check and make sure it is ok with the other party as well!

I am really glad you are doing  the disbudding!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2014)

You tell the OP that I said it's OK. But, this is a hands on session. So, you are helping, OK?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 1, 2014)

Sure! I will do as instructed  ... unless the other party passes out then maybe I will tend to them.   Just kidding!

Actually I think they will do fine, they will have good support! 
Hope it is a yes! I will call tomorrow!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Sure! I will do as instructed  ... unless the other party passes out then maybe I will tend to them.   Just kidding!
> 
> Actually I think they will do fine, they will have good support!
> Hope it is a yes! I will call tomorrow!


 I think their is a good chance of the other party passing out.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 1, 2014)

Do you use a box or a hold?


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 1, 2014)

I restrain them in my lap, and M does the iron.


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## promiseacres (Jan 2, 2014)

good article! can apply it to sheep too


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## Southern by choice (Jan 2, 2014)

Thank You. 
I did not know people dis-budded sheep. Is it a common practice or with certain breeds? Is it a show requirement for some breeds?


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## promiseacres (Jan 2, 2014)

it's very similar to the goat issues... I'm only somewhat familiar with past 4H experiences but some clubs require no horns but w/o horns my PD & DD they would not qualify for registration w/o. Of course I think that there are many more polled breeds/lines of sheep, especially those being shown. The reason I ended up with my original 4 sheep was b/c the owners didn't want to disbud for their 4H club so were changing breeds. As flightly as my sheep are I'm very glad for the horns to use as handles....


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## Sweetened (Jan 2, 2014)

I will purchase a disbudded/dehorned animal, however I will not do it to one I own, save the botched scurrs that become an issue, then a vet will be involved.

I learned goats exhaust heat through their horns and that they are incredibly sensitive.  I've seen people say having a horned goat/cow/sheep is a 'waste' of a good animal.  I don't find my polled animals any less aggressive than my horned ones.  In fact, I find they have to jostle MORE in order to fight for rank.  My Saanen buckling was disbudded when I bought him, and he now has wobbly scurrs that crack, break and bleed when he does typical goat behavior.  They're incredbily painful for him and, come the warmer weather, I will be paying to have a vet come, sedate him and redo the dehorning.

I have heard an arguement that it's not 'painful' for them, and that they react to fear and I must say, I give animals far more credit than that.  I think we're beyond the science stages of performing open heart surgery on live dogs, and I don't consider it much different.  Horns are a living part of the animal.  I don't wrong those who do it, but it is *very much* not for me.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 2, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> Thank You.
> I did not know people dis-budded sheep. Is it a common practice or with certain breeds? Is it a show requirement for some breeds?


I did not know that either.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 2, 2014)

I am not "pro" disbudding  nor am I "anti" disbudding.

*Disbudding is an elective procedure just as spaying or neutering a dog or cat, wethering an animal by banding or surgical castration, ear cropping(dogs) notching (farm animals), tail docking (dogs and livestock)... the list goes on- these are all elective procedures with different ways of doing them and risk with all of them.*

It can be such a heated debate but ultimately each person will need to evaluate and make a decision that suits them and they are comfortable with. 

Through the years I have heard many things that I find rather silly said about the subject. 
Some silly things...

1. no one will buy a horned dairy goat...
2. they don't feel it because they go into shock...
3. disbudded goats can't be with horned goats...
4. sedation is way more dangerous...
5. never walk a goat around by it's horns because it hurts...
6. they are not dairy goats if they have horns...
...the list goes on of course. 

1. Truth is we have more people wanting horns than not... 
2. duh, they are in shock because it is painful... 
3. we have horned, polled, disbudded ( our polled girl is the defender of the herd- no issues with her being at the bottom of the pecking order at all, she is at the top of the pecking order)...
4. whether sedation or not, there is risk, yet the risk is higher if your vet isn't really good at sedating, I have worked with many vets (in a professional capacity) some are good with sedation, some are not. Usually the ones that are very nervous about it are ones that are not all that comfortable or proficient at sedation-  several of the goat vets that do a great deal of disbudding  in our region use some sort of sedation, we have also seen very few scurs from these vets... 
5. it does not hurt a goat to hold onto it's horns... 
6. goats have been giving milk for thousands of years... before disbudding was a word.

I think each person and each farm environment is unique and the individual circumstances and environment can truly *only* be determined by the goat owner. 

I like horns! 
I like polled! 
I also like my Lamanchas disbudded!  
My LGD's wish our one Lamancha WAS disbudded!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 2, 2014)

I don't even have an interest in debating this subject, and I know you (Southern) are not trying to debate it with me.

I thought your article was good and presented the different perspectives.  Although I will have to say I've sold every goat I've wanted or needed to sell, and I have never once had someone contact me and say they wanted a horned goat. I guess my experience is different than yours if you say more people want them with horns.

I honestly do not care what other people do with their animals as far as horned or disbudding is concerned.  Nor, do I feel the need to justify what I do in this regard with anyone on this forum.  I show my goats in ADGA sanctioned dairy goat shows..  You can't show goats in an ADGA sanctioned show with horns. It's as simple as that.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 2, 2014)

Good Post One Fine! 

I appreciate all the different perspectives and experiences, and you are 100% right the purpose was to be rather un-biased and simply offer different options.

Personally I have learned to appreciate both sides of the argument.
I have a Lamancha


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## SheepGirl (Jan 2, 2014)

Most sheep are genetically polled. The breeds with horns are normally kept with them, as they are a part of the breed, and usually what separates them from another breed (ie the Dorset and the Dorset Horn).

I don't know of anyone or any breed that is disbudded/dehorned. All the popular breeds that are shown...Suffolk, Hamp, Southdown, Montadale, Cheviot, Dorper, Dorset, etc, are all naturally polled. Occasionally you will have scurs pop up (I had scurs on my 1/2 Texel ram lamb, but they fell off by themselves with no bleeding when he was 4-5 months old) but that's as much horn as they get.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 2, 2014)

SheepGirl said:


> Most sheep are genetically polled. The breeds with horns are normally kept with them, as they are a part of the breed, and usually what separates them from another breed (ie the Dorset and the Dorset Horn).
> 
> I don't know of anyone or any breed that is disbudded/dehorned. All the popular breeds that are shown...Suffolk, Hamp, Southdown, Montadale, Cheviot, Dorper, Dorset, etc, are all naturally polled. Occasionally you will have scurs pop up (I had scurs on my 1/2 Texel ram lamb, but they fell off by themselves with no bleeding when he was 4-5 months old) but that's as much horn as they get.


 
I did not know that.

  We watched some kids showing lambs at this years NC Mountain State Fair, had never seen it before.  I thought it was interesting how they "lead" them without collars.  Went back next door to the goat barn and was telling my wife and daughter "hey did you know they don't lead the lambs with collars"?  Wife said, "well how do they do it".  So, I put one hand under my daughters chin, and the other on the back of her head and started leading her around. 

She was not amused.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 2, 2014)




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## OneFineAcre (Jan 2, 2014)

Interesting article regarding goats and horns.

http://idgr.info/index/articles/why-horns/


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## Southern by choice (Jan 2, 2014)

*Great Find! *  

I like the last paragraph best! Deciding for oneself. It is elective.
I agree with much of what was stated... yet I don't regret doing my mini-mancha. LOL 

Our Shofar is a ram's horn!


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 2, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> *Great Find! *
> 
> I like the last paragraph best! Deciding for oneself. It is elective.
> I agree with much of what was stated... yet I don't regret doing my mini-mancha. LOL
> ...


 
I think his effort to explain where the practice of disbudding came from in the second paragraph revealed some personal bias against showing.

First of all, he offered no basis of his theory other than "we strongly suspect".  And at the end of the 2nd paragraph he sites "several people of unquestionable wisdom, and global experience" that showing has "destroyed or severely damaged every breed of animal it has ever touched"   Ok, so who are those people and give me some examples.

You didn't detect that?  Definitely not an "un-biased" just the facts essay.  Or, at least the first two paragraphs are not.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 2, 2014)

Definitely not unbiased, that was a given. 

Showing of any species has its benefits and drawbacks.


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## themorethemerrier (May 6, 2014)

One of my three wethers is polled but he is getting bumps where horns would have been. Is that normal? They are each about the size of a jelly bean. He is almost six months old. 

The other two were dehorned and, thankfully, show no signs of growth!!!


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## Southern by choice (May 6, 2014)

We were quite shocked to see these bumps actually protrude slightly through the skin on one of our polled bucklings. All our polled does have the "giraffe" nubs under the skin... no horns just rounded bumps. The bucklings broke through, he is a true polled goat, but poll "scurs" (that is what they are called) can still occur. They will never grow into horns but may break through and be as much as 1/2" tall... rounded. Sometimes they may break through because of rubbing or butting and they rub the skin off. Usually though, the poll bumps don't break through but you can still feel nubs. One of my polled bucks has very small nubs, more like a does, I think it just depends on the goat of what will and will not grow to poll scurs.

Sometimes polled goats end up getting dis-budded because the person may not be too familiar with the feel of a poll nub vs. a horn bud.


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## themorethemerrier (May 8, 2014)

Good to know...thanks!!!


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## Sweet Sue (Feb 11, 2015)

I had the vet come out yesterday and dehorn my 2 soon to be 6 month nubian/boer kids. All went well. It was a choice I made due to safety for them and my family.  I know it was the right thing to do and feel good, actually relieved about it.


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## cindyg (Feb 12, 2015)

So many things to consider.  Having just lost a fine buck to complications of anesthesia while being de-horned, I will never again have a goat that hasn't been disbudded when a baby.  I don't do it myself, but take them to a friend who is excellent at it.  I know it hurts them, how could it not, but it's over very quickly and they are fine.  It's an individual decision for sure.


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## goatgurl (Feb 12, 2015)

having had the horn of a 4 month old kid pierce my hand and go thru the web of my hand between my thumb and fore finger you can bet i how dehorn every baby that hits the ground here.  that could have been my daughters eye.  after seeing (and feeling) that i know how fast it can happen.  does it hurt the kid, yes in my opinion it does but they get over it quickly and go on like nothing ever happened.  this is an individual choice but i'll keep dehorning just for safety.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 12, 2015)

I'm just going to throw this out there to see if anyone has had the same experience that I've had.  I've been disbudding goats for a few decades now and have been the recipient of several burns....

The times where I've just slipped and had a light surface burn it hurts like crazy!   But, the two times that I've had severe burns...and I'm talking full skin thickness, all the way through the skin and down to the meat on the web of my hand I've gotta say that it did NOT hurt!  

I don't know if a burn that deep kills the nerve ending or what?  But, no pain when it happened and no after pain.  Several weeks later when the scab started to detach it was certainly tender - but other than that I was quite amazed...

Was I just lucky?


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 12, 2015)

I know what you mean there.  I don't know why but when I get a little burn on my hand from say cooking (spattering grease or touching something hot), that hurts like crazy!  But when I have burned myself more seriously, the pain was different, more tolerable.  Dunno why.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 12, 2015)

cindyg said:


> So many things to consider.  Having just lost a fine buck to complications of anesthesia while being de-horned, I will never again have a goat that hasn't been disbudded when a baby.  I don't do it myself, but take them to a friend who is excellent at it.  I know it hurts them, how could it not, but it's over very quickly and they are fine.  It's an individual decision for sure.



I think it is also a hard one. I am so sorry for your loss.  When we had Millie de-horned she was sedated but the sedation was only to the point of her being super groggy , there was still resistance. I asked the vet why? wouldn't it be better to be knocked out? The answer was no, that the resistance was needed and helpful with the dehorning and I can tell you because I assisted in the procedure there was plenty of resistance. The nerve block at the brow was given to help with the reduction of feeling. She was very loopy though. 

Dis-budding is also a risk. Vets have lost kids during a "routine" disbudding, as well as breeders... it has an impact because then they tend to go lighter on their burns... those animals end up with horrible scurs... just to end up being redone or worse an actual de-horning.  Sometimes even people who have burned many times can still end up with kids head's swelling. 

I still like horns but the dairy goats... nah... not worth it. 
We run the risk everytime we disbud because we do have sedation. Only 1 time have we had a kid that took a LONG time to wake up. Our vet was very upset about it I personally was not.

@frustratedearthmother & @Pearce Pastures  that is very interesting... I have not had the same experience but I do have a burn scar on my wrist that I got 23 years ago it was 3rd degree and to this day it still bothers me with the change of weather... in my case  I did feel it .


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## Sweet Sue (Feb 13, 2015)

goatgurl said:


> having had the horn of a 4 month old kid pierce my hand and go thru the web of my hand between my thumb and fore finger you can bet i how dehorn every baby that hits the ground here.  that could have been my daughters eye.  after seeing (and feeling) that i know how fast it can happen.  does it hurt the kid, yes in my opinion it does but they get over it quickly and go on like nothing ever happened.  this is an individual choice but i'll keep dehorning just for safety.


I totally agree goatgurl! My Doe just did miss my husbands face a couple of times. She acts like "a kid on steroids" and I wouldn't'tt let my grand get anywhere near them.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 25, 2015)

@Southern by choice

When we spoke last week, I told you I would get you a picture of the figure 8 burn Fortunato had when we got him from Ohio.  Took me a while to find the picture.



Figured I might as well post.
Needless to say, he has no scurs.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 25, 2015)

So why the figure 8?  Is this done on the boys?


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## Sweetened (Mar 25, 2015)

Oi thats agonizing for me to look at! *wimper*


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 25, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> So why the figure 8?  Is this done on the boys?



Yes, there horn base is bigger.  That's why the issue with scurs.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 25, 2015)

ok, so I guess that means I will need to watch our little boy- our vet did his the same way he did our doeling....


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 25, 2015)

x2  the figure 8 is one trick of the trade I am glad to have learned.  Meanwhile---I had to fish my mom's goat out of the fence again this morning.  I am really really ready for her to go to freezer camp.  Just another month and no more daily fence line trips.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 25, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> x2  the figure 8 is one trick of the trade I am glad to have learned.  Meanwhile---I had to fish my mom's goat out of the fence again this morning.  I am really really ready for her to go to freezer camp.  Just another month and no more daily fence line trips.



I've got a buck tip.  I'll get a pic of the buckling we did last night so you can see what it looks like.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 25, 2015)

I've seen those too.  Do you switch between the two then?


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 25, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> I've seen those too.  Do you switch between the two then?


Yes.  That is a bit of a pain.  We did two bucklings yesterday afternoon when I got home from work.  Last night after it cooled off, I changed the tip.
Doing does this afternoon.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 26, 2015)

Pearce Pastures said:


> I've seen those too.  Do you switch between the two then?



Here is the pic of the burn with the buck tip.  Took the pic the day after we did him.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 26, 2015)

so what brand/type of dehorning tool do you use?


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 26, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> so what brand/type of dehorning tool do you use?


Rhinehart.
You can get from Hoeggers
I think it is the x50, it's around $100.


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## Pearce Pastures (Mar 26, 2015)

I have to do kids today.  We had the x30 with the fixed pygmy tip---big mistake!  I don't even know why they sell the pygmy tip because it is really too small and we had to do several burns to ensure the job was done.  The x50 is much better and no scurs here.  We do the figure 8.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 26, 2015)

thanks, I'll look into that.


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## Hemlock (Jan 22, 2016)

Pearce Pastures said:


> Meanwhile---I had to fish my mom's goat out of the fence again this morning.  I am really really ready for her to go to freezer camp.  Just another month and no more daily fence line trips.



@Pearce Pastures, what goat breed and what kind of fence? I don't have goats or fencing yet, so I'm curious.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 22, 2016)

We keep Nigerian Dwarf, a sole Pygmy, Boer, and Boer crosses.  The doe mentioned above was a Boer cross.

We have Red Brand woven fencing with a single strand of hotwire about a foot or so up off of the ground.

I had a "goat-shaming" picture of her somewhere.  Drove me nutty.


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## Hemlock (Jan 22, 2016)

Pearce Pastures said:


> The doe mentioned above was a Boer cross.
> 
> We have Red Brand woven fencing with a single strand of hotwire about a foot or so up off of the ground.



Sorry to bug you again, but was it 4x4 fencing or 2x4? Just wondering how much 2"x4" fencing helps with the getting stuck issue. If it doesn't help, that really sucks. I mean stucks.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 22, 2016)

Not a problem at all.  I think it is 4x4, but it is dark and I can double-check tomorrow. Not sure if the 2x4 helps or not though.


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## St1ckyBun (Mar 21, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Southern by choice submitted a new resource:
> 
> Horns? Dis-bud? Polled? - Advantages and disadvantages
> 
> ...



Thank you for this very honest and informative post.  I appreciate you being as objective as you could on a very controversial topic.  This has helped me immensely.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 21, 2016)

St1ckyBun said:


> Thank you for this very honest and informative post.  I appreciate you being as objective as you could on a very controversial topic.  This has helped me immensely.



Your welcome. 

I need to update as more has changed. 
I just don't seem to have much time lately on BYH. 

We have gone to disbudding our own and have found a method that works for us. 

I will be sharing as how we evolved to this point.

We still leave horns on our Kiko meat goats.


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