# Coyote problem. Is a LGD right for me?



## lovemyherd (Nov 7, 2012)

For a year and a half I've lived at my new home and from the start I noticed a huge coyote problem. It's gotten much worse in the last four or five months. I've lost two Sebastopol geese over the course of a few weeks. Both were my fault, but were killed very close to the house by coyotes which disturbs me. They were locked up at night, but I came home thirty minutes after dark both times and that's when they were killed. Anyway, that doesn't matter because I sold the last of my geese because I did not feel I was in a situation to protect them adequately right now.

But my main concern is my sheep. I built their pasture nearest to the house so that I could have better watch over them. I also have a thirteen year old Great Pyr mix that lives in the house during the day (mostly sleeps) and goes outside with the sheep at night and is the perfect watch dog. She knows just when to bark and is fantastic. She doesn't wander either and I really couldn't ask for a better dog. However, she's getting too old to be doing this and in the last year she gets up fewer and fewer times. I would really like to 'retire' her and set her out with a new puppy this winter and then her job can be over but I am very nervous about getting a new LGD.

I guess I'm most terrified about the LGD roaming the neighborhood and getting hurt. My entire property is not fenced in with something I'd consider that a dog couldn't get through if he or she wanted to and presently I couldn't afford to do it. My father said he would get me an LGD puppy for Christmas, which I think is amazing, but I was sort of wondering if there's any good alternatives to an LGD.

Maybe something else I could spend the money on? Flood lights, etc.

I both terrified of losing sheep during lambing season and worried that a new dog will just add to my problems. I'm also worried that my 5 acres doesn't warrant enough space for an LGD. Everyone I've talked to says getting a dog is the only way to go, but I'm wondering what everyone's opinions are. If I were to get a dog, I'm interested in an Anatolian Shepherd. Mainly because I live in the desert and my Great pyr mix just gets too hot sometimes.

Thank you.


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## Alice Acres (Nov 7, 2012)

I'm a total dog person - show, do sports, etc. But, for our flock protection, I just love the llamas. 

We have a substantial coyote population behind us - the lake/slough is a long, connected waterway with prime habitat for coyotes, and enough small farms were they are able to go up and kill small livestock. 
We got our 1st 2 gelded males about 10-15 yrs ago - and our sheep bonded with them right away. They loved the lambs - in fact they climbed on the kushed llamas to snuggle and keep warm (we are in MN). The ewes had to come lay by the llamas to be near their lambs!

Then we went several years without, and I really missed having one, and the extra security. We got an 8 yr old female, retired show llama. She is wonderful. Right away, bonded w/ the sheep, even though she only had lived w/ other llamas previously. She is sweet, but really alert and observant. NOTHING happens without her noticing. 
One night I went out in the dark to close the back door of the barn - as we were going to catch sheep for something the next day, and wanted them penned. So I was sneaking around the outside, to the back of the barn so the sheep wouldn't run out. Well, Stef the llama had heard me, and "greeted" me in full alert and head snaked out the door, ready to defend!  I was really startled, but thrilled!
Llamas meld in with the sheep, and our 3 have never did anything but look out for our sheep. They stick close, but usually on the side or edge of the sheep. They eat the same as the sheep, so no special feed, or waters. And fencing that holds sheep is fine for llamas.
We lost 1 chicken to coyotes last summer, but it was free range and not in the pasture. The coyote popped out of the soybean field, grabbed the hen on the edge of the lawn, and popped back in the field. My husband saw the whole thing.  So I KNOW they are really brave and close.


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## lovemyherd (Nov 7, 2012)

I love llamas! I'm in a weird llama-less void area though. I've had my eye out for one for awhile just because they're so neat and I have yet to find one. I suppose if I really wanted one I might have to take a drive or use UShip.

The main drawback I see with llamas is that they need to be pastured with the sheep and cannot free roam around the property. My animals are very much spread out and for example right now I have a young bull calf that is nowhere near my sheep. I also move and rotate my sheep around. What I like about a dog is that he or she can move about the property more readily than a llama could.


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## CoffeeCow (Nov 7, 2012)

Alice, (I hate to barge in on this thread, but I have similar concerns as the OP)
We have been looking into llamas ad guardians as well, Could you give me any advice as to what type / gender / age / number of llamas to get ?
They will be looking after a herd of goats, and possibly a few cows.

Predators in the area include, Coyote, foxes, skunks, etc.

thanks


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## Alice Acres (Nov 7, 2012)

lovemyherd said:
			
		

> I love llamas! I'm in a weird llama-less void area though. I've had my eye out for one for awhile just because they're so neat and I have yet to find one. I suppose if I really wanted one I might have to take a drive or use UShip.
> 
> The main drawback I see with llamas is that they need to be pastured with the sheep and cannot free roam around the property. My animals are very much spread out and for example right now I have a young bull calf that is nowhere near my sheep. I also move and rotate my sheep around. What I like about a dog is that he or she can move about the property more readily than a llama could.


I suggested a llama because you specified your sheep - and had concerns that a dog would run away as your outer perimeter area isn't fenced.  The llama could be moved right along with the sheep or whatever animal it happened to be with, mine do. In, out, different pens, they go w/ the flow really well. But, if they are in one pen, they would not be able to protect something far away or in another pasture. :/
The farm we had our National Specialty herding trial at (for Old English Sheepdogs)  in September had lots of sheep, goats and ducks. They had a very impressive guard llama. I think I spent as much time observing him trying to keep his stock in visual range (while they were in another pen, being herded), as I did watching the actual competition!


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## Alice Acres (Nov 7, 2012)

CoffeeCow said:
			
		

> Alice, (I hate to barge in on this thread, but I have similar concerns as the OP)
> We have been looking into llamas ad guardians as well, Could you give me any advice as to what type / gender / age / number of llamas to get ?
> They will be looking after a herd of goats, and possibly a few cows.
> 
> ...


We have the same predator animals here too.

Our 1st 2 (we had them together) were adult males, gelded. We didn't know their age when we got them, but they were mature adults. One was very people friendly, the other was  shy. They both were friendly temperament wise.  I also taught them to lead and pack too   We had them until they died from old age. One died about 2 yrs before the other, so we had just the one w/ the stock during that time.

Then we went several yrs with none. We temporarily had a young female at our house - she belonged to a friend, and he didn't want her bred by his male as she was too young. She was at our farm for about 8 months. She was pretty flighty, and I can't say that I thought her a good deterrent from anything. She was good with the stock, but never seemed to bond or really care about them. :/

I started a search a couple years ago to get another llama - and had an agreement to get a young male from a show breeder. But that fell through, as the youth that were training them (they had a club, and taught youth to care for and show them) wanted to keep them and show them again. So, I was offered a bred mature female instead. I was leery, as we didn't have good luck with a female before. But, in the end we did decide to get her. SO happy, as she is wonderful!

Alert Stefany, not long after we got her:






And very loving and curious - snuffling my granddaughter. She had just come out of the pool and Stef had to check her over :

(EDIT - ok, this one won't load, it just duplicates the other photo. I'll try and add it later  )

She did have a cria, a male. Unfortunately, this summer we lost him (as a yearling) to meningeal worms  He was already bonded with our stock, and taking on a perfect guardian llama role. In fact we were going to send him with our young stock (and wean him) to another farm for summer pasture this summer....but then he got sick, and we ended up losing him. It was heart breaking. We're still grieving. We had imprinted him, he was lead and obstacle trained and gorgeous. 

Also, when we got Stef, my friend got Stef's mom. She raises sheep and ducks and geese, and Tiff has been just as awesome with her new family.

So, I can't really say one gender is better than another. It really depends on the animal itself. But we really, really like them.


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## Alice Acres (Nov 7, 2012)

trying again....


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## catjac1975 (Nov 7, 2012)

I have used an invisible fence with success to keep my dog from wandering. They are relatively cheap, easy to install. In fact you can just lay the ground wire on the ground instead of burying if is in a place that will not get cut. Many dogs will get trained and never even need the fence to be turned on after a while. They can cover many acres if necessary. I would get 2 pups if possible so the coyotes don't kill your dog. Many hunters would be glad to come and shoot the coyotes.





			
				lovemyherd said:
			
		

> For a year and a half I've lived at my new home and from the start I noticed a huge coyote problem. It's gotten much worse in the last four or five months. I've lost two Sebastopol geese over the course of a few weeks. Both were my fault, but were killed very close to the house by coyotes which disturbs me. They were locked up at night, but I came home thirty minutes after dark both times and that's when they were killed. Anyway, that doesn't matter because I sold the last of my geese because I did not feel I was in a situation to protect them adequately right now.
> 
> But my main concern is my sheep. I built their pasture nearest to the house so that I could have better watch over them. I also have a thirteen year old Great Pyr mix that lives in the house during the day (mostly sleeps) and goes outside with the sheep at night and is the perfect watch dog. She knows just when to bark and is fantastic. She doesn't wander either and I really couldn't ask for a better dog. However, she's getting too old to be doing this and in the last year she gets up fewer and fewer times. I would really like to 'retire' her and set her out with a new puppy this winter and then her job can be over but I am very nervous about getting a new LGD.
> 
> ...


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## Southern by choice (Nov 7, 2012)

Great info on the guard llamas Alice. I've never seen a guard llama in person so this is very helpful. I have only been around 1 llama before and he was so nasty and aggressive it left me with a bad impression and I've been leery of them ever since. Having only that one experience I know does not define llamas in general.


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## bonbean01 (Nov 7, 2012)

Have you ever been spit on by a Llama?  Smell is just too gross to describe and doesn't wash out of your clothes...have to trash them.  Have you ever been chased by a male Llama trying to mate you?  Also not a good experience.  But then these were my brother's Llamas and he didn't know what he was doing when he got them.  Many people have them, swear by them for protecting herds and find them sweet and loveable.  Personally after my experiences, I'd get an LGD...but then...I did fall in love with Peaches on the Llama forum


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## Alice Acres (Nov 7, 2012)

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> Have you ever been spit on by a Llama?  Smell is just too gross to describe and doesn't wash out of your clothes...have to trash them.  Have you ever been chased by a male Llama trying to mate you?  Also not a good experience.  But then these were my brother's Llamas and he didn't know what he was doing when he got them.  Many people have them, swear by them for protecting herds and find them sweet and loveable.  Personally after my experiences, I'd get an LGD...but then...I did fall in love with Peaches on the Llama forum


Nope - my guys only spit once, and it was at each other. Guess they were having some sort of llama tiff.

No mating, humping either. The only humping I saw was when I took Stef back to be bred - so it was on purpose! And they kush (lay down) to mate.
Sounds like your brother had some interesting llamas .....
I do hear horror stories like this from people. Makes me wonder what was wrong with the llamas to make them this way - genetics or environment??


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## bonbean01 (Nov 7, 2012)

In my brother's case I'd say both...Angel the female (name did NOT suit her) was mean and nasty right from the start...the male Higgins was a lover boy...sadly he didn't care if it was another Llama or me 

I think he got the female as a cull from her agressive nasty temperment...he and his wife had no clue about these animals...but...they did sell a young female for $20,000.00 so they did get their money back on them.  When Angel was badly hamstrung and attacked by a year old LGD from a shelter...yeah...the vet bills wiped out any profit and they got out of Llamas after getting four of them.  Dumb thing was, Angel could never walk again...she was insured had they had the vet put her down as he suggested, but no...had to save her and fork out big money...for what?  Ahhh...I love my brother, but don't get me started...his ventures into poultry, lop rabbits and pigs did not go well either...but that's a whole story in itself


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## lovemyherd (Nov 8, 2012)

I was considering putting up an invisible fence on most my property, but I've read many experiences where people pointed out that they didn't work. I know sometimes dogs don't wander, but the fact that there's no way to guarantee it makes me weary. Just wish I could reserve the aging on my old Pyr mix, she really is perfect. Goes right to the front gate and stops there. In fact, it seems like she has a little patrol worked out that she does every night when I let her out of the house. 

Do I have to get two LGDs? I already have 3 house dogs (including the pyr) and I'd really rather not bring the total up to 5. I might look into llamas, but considering what a wide area I need protected I feel like the bark of a dog might be better, even if I have to keep him or her penned in the sheep pasture for security reasons.


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## Roll farms (Nov 8, 2012)

I dearly loved our llamas, gelded males make great guardians (intact males w/out female llamas around can try to breed females of other species and hurt them).

BUT - they wouldn't kill small predators or sound an alarm when they came calling, and we lost some valuable poultry to foxes and coons.

So we got an LGD pup, who the last guard llama was determined to murder...so our last llama left.  :/

Now we have dogs and they do great - and kill anything dumb enough to enter their pen.  With some early training we haven't lost a bird to an LGD in years.

I don't think invisible fence works w/ some dogs because they leave at a run and by the time they get shocked, they are past the fence...then when they walk back home they'll get zapped and not want to enter.   We sell them at work and I always tell people it's a lot of work to train them to the fence, you don't just install it and expect the dog to stay in it.

IF you took the time to really train the animal about the boundaries and what happens when crossed I'm still not sure it'd work on an LGD who has the strong drive to run off what it's after.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 8, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Now we have dogs and they do great - and kill anything dumb enough to enter their pen.  With some early training we haven't lost a bird to an LGD in years.
> 
> I don't think invisible fence works w/ some dogs because they leave at a run and by the time they get shocked, they are past the fence...then when they walk back home they'll get zapped and not want to enter.   We sell them at work and I always tell people it's a lot of work to train them to the fence, you don't just install it and expect the dog to stay in it.
> 
> IF you took the time to really train the animal about the boundaries and what happens when crossed I'm still not sure it'd work on an LGD who has the strong drive to run off what it's after.


I so agree with Roll, I have also seen a good amount of collars on CL- "didn't work on their Great Pyrenees" is what the ads read.

Unlike Roll I am still losing birds  , all my LGD's are still under a year. It is mostly when the "wrong" bird goes into the "wrong" field. The dogs know what birds are in their field and a different bird that decides to fly over the wrong fence is something that doesn't belong to them. It is difficult, but we have a huge problem with hawks and so its getting them over the hump of chicken-NO hawk-YES.


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## bonbean01 (Nov 8, 2012)

Southern...I can see that it would be difficult for the dogs to determine which bird is a yes and which is a no.  If a chicken flew over the fence to where they are and didn't belong there before, guess they saw it as a Yes.

As for the shock collars...did no good with our crazy Maizey dog...she would take the shocks...yelp...and still haul butt...she knew when she was out of range.  Haven't heard too many success stories about those buried electric dog "fences" either.


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## goatboy1973 (Jan 20, 2013)

I love the llama as a guardian animal. I have tried great pyrs & had 2 @ different times & they just did not want to stay fenced. The llama works wonderful for our Spanish goat operation. " Carl" our guardian llama is an ungelded male who is a 4 yr. old & has sent stray dogs, deer, & coyotes running for their lives. He absolutely adores his flock of Spanish & meat-type Nubian goats. He will follow a doe into the woodland who is about to kid, & he will stand guard until the kid(s) are up nursing & then go back to the rest of the herd checking in on the new kids regularly until they are introduced to the main herd. The llama eats the same feedstuffs that the goats do, so he is virtually maintenance free except for the yearly shearing & his trimmings  & dewormings. Visit www.calfeefarms.net to see Carl.


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## woodsie (Jan 23, 2013)

lovemyherd said:
			
		

> I was considering putting up an invisible fence on most my property, but I've read many experiences where people pointed out that they didn't work. I know sometimes dogs don't wander, but the fact that there's no way to guarantee it makes me weary. Just wish I could reserve the aging on my old Pyr mix, she really is perfect. Goes right to the front gate and stops there. In fact, it seems like she has a little patrol worked out that she does every night when I let her out of the house.
> 
> Do I have to get two LGDs? I already have 3 house dogs (including the pyr) and I'd really rather not bring the total up to 5. I might look into llamas, but considering what a wide area I need protected I feel like the bark of a dog might be better, even if I have to keep him or her penned in the sheep pasture for security reasons.


I have an invisible fence on 6 acres and it has worked fantastic with my two GPs. I do have an old fence up but it is not in great shape and has some holes plus the driveway is not fenced so I decided to but an invisible fence system up. I installed it myself because my husband was way too busy and the dogs were running along the railway tracks and I was getting NO sleep at night. I didn't even bury it all, I just placed it in the long grass along the fence line although I will bury it in spring so it last longer.

My male GP has been rehomed 4 times in 2 years as he would always run away. He only had to get zapped twice to not go near the perimeter....I only had the collar on for a couple weeks and he has stayed put. My female took a little more and have had to keep the collar on but she also was able to cross the perimeter for 9 months (I got her as a pup) before I installed the invisible fence. I also had to trim her neck fur as the shock wasn't getting down to her skin and you really have to make the collar tight otherwise it doesn't make good contact and is useless. I figure if an invisible fence can contain a dog that has a reputation for wandering (landed in the pound 3 times, had neighbours threatening to shoot him and resorted to chaining him) it will probably work for any LGD as long as it is properly installed and the collar is correctly adjusted....good training helps but most of the system walk you through a training proceedure.

I went with a petsafe system but I think there is one out there that also gives you the option of a handheld electric training system option as well - I wish I would have got that one instead. The dogs are much too curious about my chickens and rabbits and I would have like the option of a remote to zap them when they are bugging the little critters...that and to tell them to leave the garbage alone. Geesh!

I would totally recommend the LGD route... a friend of mine said the llama guard is something that llama salesmen made up...that being said he has both. 

Let us know what you decide!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm glad the invisible fence system worked for you. In general it is a good system. The biggest problem is when you do have a driven dog that really is pursuing a predator it will break the line and once it does you have a problem. The dog is not going to come back across the line...it knows it will get shocked. My LGD's respect a hot wire BUT if there is something really serious they will go through it. My GSD cannot be stopped... no invisible fence or hot wire will prevent the strong prey drive. I think it is a great back-up system just not a primary one. The way you use yours is really smart.  I am considering something similar for our rotating hotwire fences... that are moved every 3 weeks for fresh forage.

My sis has 6 dogs... all respect the invisible fence. One day a fox came across her poodle ( all the other dogs are lg dogs..labs/ and bc) the poodle ran straight through and kept going... miles away...got picked up by a thoughtful couple when they saw it on the busy highway frantic. They were headed for a vacation... dog ended up 150 miles away and only by a miracle did my sis recover the dog 3 counties away, and a week later.  Collars were on but the tag was missing.


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## Grazer (Jan 23, 2013)

For some LGD owners the invisible fence system works, but for a lot it doesn't. 
Like Southern explained, most LGD's have a high pain threshold and those dogs will break the line if they are in pursuit of something or even worse, someone. It will depend on the breed and the individual dog.
I'm glad it works for some people 
But I personally would never recommend the invisible fence and I always go with good ol' fashioned minimum of 6ft high sturdy, wooden or deer fence.
I understand that good fencing is really, really expensive on a big property (and that is why some people decide to only fence in one part of their property)....but as the saying goes: good fences make good neighbors.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 23, 2013)

Grazer.... I noticed your cool avatar!


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## Grazer (Jan 23, 2013)

Thank you Southern!
I really like your avatar of D. 
He is such a good looking dog and he looks so wise.
It's hard to describe what I mean by it...Not only are LGD's majestic dogs, but a lot of them have that observant, intelligent look in their eyes and I just love seeing that in these breeds.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 23, 2013)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Thank you Southern!
> I really like your avatar of D.
> He is such a good looking dog and he looks so wise.
> It's hard to describe what I mean by it...Not only are LGD's majestic dogs, but a lot of them have that observant, intelligent look in their eyes and I just love seeing that in these breeds.


Grazer... I know just what you mean, it is just hard to put into words. These animals are smart, discerning and just simply amazing.
I have to laugh...yours shows the fierceness of a LGD (in your avatar) and mine shows the lazy, "I have mommy wrapped around my paw" and I want to get love while I watch tv look :/  hmmmm... yours "looks" way LGD..


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## Grazer (Jan 24, 2013)

Yes they sure are!
The funny thing is, that is our dog's playing face lol
He looks so fierce but in reality him and our female were just "wrestling". The two of them play so rough..they drag each other by the neck through the grass all the time, body-slam etc 
It's like having WWE matches in your backyard every day 
And I so agree...these dogs are simply amazing; they are all lovey-dovey with us, but as soon as they hear something they immediately get into their "guarding mode" and go to make sure everything is fine.


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