# When is it time to give up on this goat?



## dianneS (Jul 27, 2013)

I have a rescued goat who has been with me for a few years now.  She's never been the most thrifty, but she's shown much improvement over the years.  I have no history on her and no idea of her age, but she's old.  Possibly VERY old.  She looked her absolute best over this past winter and early spring, then BAM!  She's down and lethargic, isolating from the rest of the herd and scouring.  She also had pale gums and eyelids.  I wormed her right away with Ivermectin (its what I had on hand) and gave her inject-able iron and B-complex.  She was wormed again with Morantel and more Ivermectin all about 10 days or so apart.

She started to improve.  Her poops got clumpy, but never returned to berries.  She got her strength back and was much more active.  Her hair coat continued to look terrible, but I figured that would take time to improve.

We just had a terrible heat wave last week and BAM!  This goat is down again!  This time, she deteriorates even more quickly.  Scouring, losing weight, not eating at all, very weak.  I gave Safeguard (fenbendezol) two doses a few days apart.  No major improvement other than her poops returned to clumps again.  I gave her a dose of cydectin.  Once again, clumpy poops but no other improvement.  She was getting weaker and weaker, not eating anything.  I gave her more inject-able iron and B-complex. 

I had thrown so many wormers at her and she was so weak, she needed some nutrition in one form or another, or I was going to lose her.  I got some Calf Manna (it brought a mini horse back from deaths door for me once)   I liquified the calf manna pellets with some electrolytes and syringe fed her about 200 cc's of the liquid feed.
She rested a while, then got up and headed for the woods and did some browsing on tree leaves and brush for a few hours.  She ate some calf manna pellets willingly and took some goat minerals on her own as well.  She's up today browsing sporadically and resting (but not ruminating) off and on.  However, she's scouring again, big-time!  Its runny liquid.  Could this be from the liquid diet, or could it mean something more?

I've decided to give her some Corid (its what I have on hand) just to be on the safe side.  I'm going to do the five day treatment and see what happens.

I'm so confused by this goat, and not sure when to throw in the towel?  She's just a pet, a rescue and never been in very good health from the start.  She could have had a compromised immune or digestive system from past illness or parasite infestation?  The rest of my herd looks spectacular this year, its just this one that is a mess.  Should I give up on her if she doesn't get well after this round of attempts?  Could she just be old and on her way out?  How do I know when its time to give up?  If I have to cull her, I will have to call the vet to do it.  We can't shoot her, we just can't.  Is there anything else I could try to give her one more chance?


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## AshleyFishy (Jul 27, 2013)

You might want to have her tested for Johnes.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 27, 2013)

Calf Manna is very rich. Hay and water only at this point.  Give her some revitalyte to slow the scouring and then as soon as you can get some solid-ish poo, take it for testing.  With all of the dewormers and antibiotics, her digestive system might be off and Probiotics might be a good idea as well.

Did you test her for parasites before treating her for them?


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## Southern by choice (Jul 27, 2013)

I agree with checking for Johnnes.

I do have a question though...

What are her fecals showing?  Have you had any fecals run on her?

Barberpole, Liver Flukes, and cocci  are the most dangerous. Barberpole and Liver Flukes can appear the same on a scope but they are different and someone good can identify the difference. Cocci isn't a worm and each one of those needs treated differently. 

Barberpole is one  treatment 
Liver Fluke - Ivermec PLUS as the regular won't work and the treatment is 3 doses 10 days apart.
Cocci, depending on load is sometimes several treatments so many days apart.

Using the FAMACHA method ( eyelid check) is only effective with the BArberpole worm and barberpole doesn't cause scours.
I would look at Flukes and cooci, and most definately Johnnes.


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## elevan (Jul 27, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> I agree with checking for Johnnes.
> 
> I do have a question though...
> 
> ...


x2


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## dianneS (Jul 29, 2013)

I forgot to mention that she did have a little bottle jaw at one point during all of this.  Very slight swelling and I treated her with iron.  I assumed barberpole worms at that point and did not have fecals done as everything was pointing to barberpole worms.

With this latest relapse, I just assumed its the barberpoles making a comeback and treated with cydectin.  No improvement.

She's on day three of Corid and I was seeing some improvement yesterday, eating more (she's going crazy on some Locust branches I gave her) more active, she's ruminating again, but this morning she seemed really weak and still scouring.  This morning she collapsed next to the water trough and couldn't get herself up until I lifted her onto her chest.  Then she got up and staggered to a shady spot and lay down again.  Oh, and another thing, she keeps eating dirt right after eating something else???  I have plenty of free-choice and good quality minerals out for her.  I've supplemented her with trace minerals.  She's probably deficient in something as weak as she is, but its just strange that the dirt eating seems to be triggered by her eating leaves, grass or pellets?

I just got off the phone wit the vet.  No one around here tests for Johne's.  They will have to send the sample out and don't know what the cost will be as the other lab will bill them.  I can't drop the sample off until tomorrow as they have to send it out before noon.  I'm afraid my goat could be dead by tomorrow.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2013)

Liver Flukes are bloodsuckers like barberpole and they also cause bottlejaw.

Sadly I do not think your your girl will make it. Please if she passes take her in for a necropsy. Your state vet is usually very inexpensive and also if that is too far then look at your closest vet school.

Ivermectin is effective on Barberpole but NOT flukes.
Flukes need Ivermectin Plus. the treatment is also different. 3 doses, exactly 10 days apart. It only kills the adults so that is why the 3 treatments at 10 days apart.

Deer are big carriers of flukes too.

Anyway I wanted to share this because of how under-diagnosed this is and how it is such a silent killer. It really is very prevalent but for some reason only the Barberpole is ever talked about.
Thanking G-d for my neighbor vet. His years of experience really surpass the "specialist".
He also said look, it is wet out there, it hasn't ever dried up... this is just prime conditions for every parasite.
Not sure of your region, but we are not in a normal fluke region yet they are here.... 

map and egg pics- goat-link.com/content/view/152/#.UfObNdLOuuI
story and info- learning the hard way www.dairygoatjournal.com/87-1/the_liver_fluke/
meds chart- www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/pests-diseases-and-weeds/pest-insects/liver-fluke


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## dianneS (Jul 29, 2013)

I'm starting to wonder if its flukes too.  Especially since she's never been the most thrifty of goats in the first place.

I'm not really in a "fluke region" either but we had two very warm winters in a row.  I have a lot of water around my place and we did have a few very wet springs in recent years.  We have a lot of deer too and they jump the fence into our pastures (until the dog chases them out!)

I'm not sure if I should even attempt the Ivomec Plus at this point, or if it will be a waste of time and money?

I'm starting to wish I would have just had the vet put her down last week, but I had to give her another chance.

I checked on her about 2 hours ago.  She's just laying in her shady spot.  Her eyelids are really pale.  I don't even want to mess with her and stress her out.  She's always been a very skittish and fearful goat so any handling of her gets her really upset.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2013)

I am so sorry. This years weather for much of the country has been brutal with the rains... that has really allowed such a bloom of parasites.

Everyone who owns these endearing creatures sure can identify with the well just one more try... we love them and want to do everything we can. You sure have, and only you know when it is more compassionate to euthanize her.

In your heart you will know. 

I wish I had some thing to say to bring you comfort. I am sad with you.


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## dianneS (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks so much for the kind words.

The strangest thing has happened...

She has disappeared!

I had her separated from the rest of the herd of course, and she has a very large pasture to browse in.  I figured that the more variety of plants to choose from, the more chance of her finding what she might "need" to help her with whatever is ailing her.

However, she's so weak that she usually only browses in two areas, and lays down in two other spots.  Today, she wasn't doing any browsing, just resting and looking pitiful.  I went out a few hours ago and told her that its okay if she gives up, that she'll be okay and go to a much better place.  I did some mowing for a couple of hours and then went to check on her again.  I can't find her!  She's gone!

There are several acres of wooded area with waist high weeds along a small stream in her pasture.  I walked the fence lines, I waded through some of the brush, I looked for tracks and tall weeds knocked down where she might have gone into the brush.  I can't find her!  She's too weak to go very far.  I'm assuming that she wandered into the brush somewhere and laid down and has probably died or is dying.  But I can't find her!  This is just crazy.  I don't know what to do?  I guess I'll search some more.  If I don't find her, in a few days the buzzards will...


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## elevan (Jul 29, 2013)




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## dianneS (Jul 29, 2013)

OMG, she's back.

I just went out to the pasture and she's down at the edge of the woods browsing away on rose bushes!

She looks pretty perky too.  What next?

If this goat doesn't die, she'll probably be the death of ME!


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## elevan (Jul 29, 2013)

I'm so glad that you found her and that she seems to be doing ok!!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 29, 2013)

Get Replamin Plus. Give her 5cc once a week. I have been seeing some good results with it. I have also been reading quite a bit on how happy other people are with it. It is a vitamin/mineral gel.


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## dianneS (Jul 29, 2013)

Thanks, I'll check out the Replamin plus.

As its getting dark this evening, I called to her to come up from the woods and she marched across the pasture looking pretty strong and better than I've seen in a while.  She stopped half way and took a little break, then continued across the pasture to her night time nesting spot closer to the barn and settled down for bedtime.

I guess she's not ready to go yet?  I guess that means I shouldn't give up on her either.

I think its a good sign that she ventured so far from her usual grazing areas today and went wandering.  Apparently she had the strength to travel that far in the first place and was curious enough to want to.  She was strong enough to make her way back, so maybe she's improving or at least still stands a chance?


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 29, 2013)




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## Southern by choice (Jul 29, 2013)

brat goat!  

JUST KIDDING! WOW.... makes my heart happy! Lil stinker... doesn't she know how many people are worried about her? and she goes missing! 

Hoping she keeps on improving! 

If you can have blood drawn I would get a mineral analysis done, and the Johnnes.  Neither is very expensive, usually... unless your vet really jacks up the submission fees.
Mineral analysis will tell you what she is lacking or too high in. Most state labs will also run fecals for a few dollars.


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## ragdollcatlady (Jul 29, 2013)

Ohhh My heart was ready to cry.....I am glad you found her!  I hope you are able to help her turn around....sounds like she is hanging in there.......


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## dianneS (Jul 30, 2013)

Well I got up this morning, found her down on her side.  I thought she was dead.  I put her up on her chest, but she won't get up on her own.  I took a fecal sample (her poos are clumpy today, not runny) to the vet and waited for the results.  They found nothing.  Not a single thing in her sample.  Two techs looked at it and the large animal vet triple checked.  Nothing.

I called the large animal vet when I got home and discussed the situation further with her.  She said I've pretty much done everything that could be done and all we can do now is test her for Johnes and/put her out of her misery.  

The vet is on her way right now, should be here within 20 minutes or so.


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## AshleyFishy (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm so sorry sweetie. I dearly hope it is not Johnes,  if it is though you will need to test your whole herd and cull. It will also stay in your ground awhile I believe.

I've seen it in dairy cattle and they can be just fine for years, then yoyo for awhile then suddenly crash.


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## dianneS (Jul 30, 2013)

The vet was just here.

She agreed that I had done everything I could possibly do.  She did mention that perhaps the fecals came back negative on worms and coccidia because she was being medicated.  That perhaps she was still suffering the effects of a heavy worm or coccidia load.  But I said that even if that is the case, considering her age, her condition and the fact that she's never been quite thrifty in the first place, she won't likely bounce back after a hit like this.  The vet did say that perhaps she is just very old and dying of old age.  We still don't know how old she was, but she was literally very long in the tooth and some of her front teeth were even loose when the vet checked them and said she must be old.  However, her teeth were fine otherwise and would not have been a contributing factor in her weight loss.

The vet could only recommend treating her scours, which would just be treating symptoms and not the cause, just prolonging the inevitable.

The vet took a fresh fecal sample to send off to have tested for Johnes.  Then she gave her a sedative and finally the lethal injection.

I just finished burying her.  I'm so thankful for my tractor, it made the job much easier.  I will hear back on the Johnes test by next Monday at the latest.  I guess I'm glad I'm not in the meat or dairy business and I'm not planning to breed any goats, if in fact it is Johnes.  I'm still hoping and praying that its not...    I won't be bringing any new goats (or other ruminants) on the property for a long, long time!

This goat was always very skittish and leery of people.  She wasn't easy to handle at times, but I will be eternally grateful to her for training my livestock guardian dog.  She was the only goat big enough to put that dog in his place and teach him her manners.  She did a great job, because he is a great dog.  I have video of them playing together.


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## AshleyFishy (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## dianneS (Jul 30, 2013)

Thank you.

I was just watching the video of her playing with that big dog and bossing him around, its pretty funny!

It made me realize that she hasn't been that rambunctious in a very long time.  I haven't seen that amount of play or activity out of her in well over a year.  Maybe she was just getting old?


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## AshleyFishy (Jul 30, 2013)

dianneS said:
			
		

> Thank you.
> 
> I was just watching the video of her playing with that big dog and bossing him around, its pretty funny!
> 
> It made me realize that she hasn't been that rambunctious in a very long time.  I haven't seen that amount of play or activity out of her in well over a year.  Maybe she was just getting old?


I think so honey. It sounds like she was well on in her years. It will do good to test just in case, for peace of mind at the least.  She had a good time grazing the other day and she will always live in your memories. You also gave her the gift of leaving this world quietly, in dignity and loved.


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## dianneS (Jul 30, 2013)

I am really hoping that she was just old and weak.

She was a rescue, came from an animal shelter.  She could have suffered neglect in her past that left her with a compromised system and/or permanent damage to her digestive tract.  Who knows?  This, along with her age and a warm wet winter with a high incidence of parasite bloom this spring may have been too much for her to take?  Perhaps the aggressive de-worming I gave her and all the medications was too much for her as well?  

I was about to give up on her last week, but I thought I'd give it one more shot.  I'm glad I did and I'm glad the vet confirmed that I had done all that I really could have done for her.  Letting her go was the only thing left to do.  She was too weak to even stand for the vet today.  She managed to get up once, taking a step or two and literally fell down.  That's when I made up my mind, it was time to put her out of her misery.

I'm glad she got to go peacefully and with dignity too.  The vet was very kind and understanding.  She works at a small animal practice too and didn't think it one bit odd that I wanted to have her humanely euthanized rather than just shoot her.  She was a very kind vet to my old girl and I'm glad she was here to comfort her with me in the end.  I gave my girl a few of her favorite locust branches to nibble while we waited for the vet to come back from the truck with the injections and kept her calm.  She was good for the sedative injection and was out like a light almost instantly.  It was very peaceful.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm so sorry. You have done everything that you can. You gave that old gal a great life she wouldn't have otherwise had.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 30, 2013)




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## bonbean01 (Jul 30, 2013)




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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jul 30, 2013)

*So sorry for your loss.  Please post the results of the blood work. *


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## Southern by choice (Jul 31, 2013)

I am so sorry, I am glad you were able to be with her and she passed peacefully. 
She was a very loved goat.



> I will hear back on the Johnes test by next Monday at the latest.  I guess I'm glad I'm not in the meat or dairy business and I'm not planning to breed any goats, if in fact it is Johnes.


If the vet took a fecal (which in this case was best) it will take *4 months* to get the results. 
The culture has to be grown and it is a lengthly process.
Blood test generally take a few days but with all the de-wormers and meds it can throw the test and you could get a "false" positive.


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## dianneS (Jul 31, 2013)

Really?  The test takes four months?  The vet didn't seem to be aware of that.  Oh well, I can wait.  I'm just relieved that this is all over with, but sad too.


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## OneFineAcre (Jul 31, 2013)

dianneS said:
			
		

> Really?  The test takes four months?  The vet didn't seem to be aware of that.  Oh well, I can wait.  I'm just relieved that this is all over with, but sad too.


Southern is correct.  The fecal test for Johnnes does take 4 months to culture.

She is also correct, a blood test can yield false positives especially under these circumstances.

I had an annual herd health check and got a positive for Johnnes for one of my Jr. Does..  The test the lab runs initially is an ELISA which measures immune response.  Found out a lot of factors can cause an immune response and give false negative.

We had a second  blood test run which is an acid fast stain test.  More accurate, and this one was negative.

The fecal test is the most definitive test, and probably appropriate in this situation.


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## elevan (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm so sorry


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## dianneS (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks everyone.

Any recommendations on microscope to do my own fecals?  

I'm really long over-due for having my own equipment.  I want to get set up to do my own testing in the future so that I can keep tabs on everyone, act more quickly and be pro-active.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 31, 2013)

http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=24448

This includes flotation mix,also if you read the last post, I recently updated ... the digital screen scopes DO NOT WORK WELL for this purpose and the McMasters method cannot be used on them.

Stick with a regular scope with ability to magnify 100x ( this is usually a 10x eyepiece with a 10x magnifier)
You do not need an expensive scope. 

If you have any other questions you can pm me.


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## dianneS (Jul 31, 2013)

Thanks!


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## dianneS (Nov 13, 2013)

Just an update.  Got the Johnes results.  NEGATIVE!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 13, 2013)

Thanks for updating.


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## elevan (Nov 13, 2013)




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