# There's a new macrocyclic lactone (____ectin) dewormer!



## cmjust0 (Dec 1, 2009)

It's called Caprimec, by a company out of Australia called Virbac..  The active ingredient is abamectin, and some trials show it to be different enough from ivermectin (Ivomec) or moxidectin (Cydectin) that it should be considered a new, 3rd _ectin alternative to ivomec-  and cydectin-resistant parasites.

_And_, it's a drench!  _And_ it's labelled specifically for goats!  No guesswork...no "such and such said to use it this way..." -- just buy it, read the directions, and use it.

Now, are you ready for the best part? 

We can't have it, because it's not available in the USA.      


( Oh, I will have this dewormer.  You just mark my words..  I fully intend to rustle up a jug somehow.   )


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## cmjust0 (Dec 1, 2009)

This is almost as frustrating as the day I heard about Zolvix .


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## lupinfarm (Dec 1, 2009)

You know what CM, lol.. you may be missing out on that wormer, but you are not as unlucky as me!! I can't get any shots, most wormers, goat feeds (including noble goat, not sold here), goat panels, goat feeders/halters/etc. I can't buy goat specific minerals, not a single thing!

Vets have a monopoly on medications/shots here, the only shot I can get is CD/T in a huge bottle and *some* as in 2 kinds of antibiotic, neither labeled for goats. 

Yeahh...You've got it easy.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 1, 2009)

I wept for I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet -- Chinese proverb.

I hear ya.

Still mad, though.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 1, 2009)

USA has its own regulations for a reason.

wait, it might come.

and there are TONS of safe wormers on the market that work fine.



but yea, denied...the word denied "anything" makes me mad anyway..LOL--but then again, alot "out there" we don't truly want here anyway.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 1, 2009)

FarmerChick said:
			
		

> USA has its own regulations for a reason.
> 
> wait, it might come.
> 
> ...


My impression of the situation is that the vet pharma companies specifically target Australia and New Zealand for R & D on their sheep & goat stuff simply because sheep and goats are such a large part of their ag economies....primarily sheep.  Probably makes economical sense to spend the money there, whereas in the US.....well, let's face it....the sheep population went from 50mm+ head in the '40s to like 5mm head today, and there are probably even less goats in the US today than there are sheep!  Sheep and goats combined account for a VERY small percentage of US livestock receipts....one or two percent, tops, with the balance being primarily hogs and cattle.

What I'd like to see -- and I just thought this up about 4 minutes ago, so I'm reserving the right to change my mind without notice  -- is some sort of reciprocity agreement with Australia/New Zealand on sheep and goat products.  Like...if it gets approved there, USDA rubber stamps it and makes it available in the US.  

Overnight, we get Zolvix, Glanvac-3 (pfizer's on-label C/D-T & CL vax for goats), Caprimec, CIDRs become legal...I'm sure the list goes on and on of stuff we've probably not even heard of yet.  Not only would that help little guys like us, I'm sure it would also help the small ruminant ag sector as a whole..  

Oh, and as for there being plenty of wormers that work fine...that may be true now, but for how much longer?  There are really only three classes of wormers -- whites, _ectins, and levasole..  Whites hardly work at all anymore, _ectins are fading fast, and anything containing levamisole is, for all intents and purposes, extinct.  

Combine that with what appears to be vet pharma's non-interest in providing new small-ruminant anthelmintics to the US market and it certainly wouldn't appear to be a great situation to be in, going forward.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 1, 2009)

we can not rely on chemicals all the time.....good husbandry and natural helpers should play into the backyard famers usage.

I agree.....when approved and noted good for animal husbandry in other countries--FAST approval should happen to be used here.....well fast, huh, whatever goes fast..LOL

do not rotate wormers until you can prove fecal exam wise etc. that the wormer of choice is not working to full sufficiency.....then you switch to a new one and ride it out for the course combined with pasture rotation and all.

it is never simple....can't be..LOL...but there are ways to make it all work.


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## no nonsense (Dec 1, 2009)

CM, you disappoint me man. I thought that you got it.
Yes, it would be nice if we could quickly follow along with some of the sensible English speaking countries like Australia, which aren't run by a bunch or religious zealots blind to all but the teachings on some cryptic text found under a rock near the Sea of Galillee, but there's good reason why we have the process. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that our government bureaucrasy has some part in it, but does anyone remember a new drug called ProHeart 6? To refresh your memory, it was another one of the greatest things coming down the pike, touted by the pharmacutical company as being completely safe, because it was used for years *in Australia.* It even came in this neat new technology of microspheres, injected under the skin where they slowly released an ectin for 6 months. No more monthly heartworm pills to forget. Low and behold, the complaints started rolling in. Now I will admit that this may not be the best example, and I'm perfectly willing to concede that maybe the majority of those complaints were from idiots whose animals had something else going on anyway, but who were just looking for a boogyman in the form of this new fangled drug. (anyone remember the ethoxyquin scare in the 80's?) Nonetheless, Fort Dodge pulled it voluntarily, and those of us with any intelligence know that means that if they didn't, FDA was going to do it for them, which  means more trouble in the long run. Again, a bad example, because it's recently been reintroduced to the market after a thorough review by FDA, but my point is that it did go through the process, and still there were concerns. Still, we occasionally hear about a human drug which does the same thing.

Now it strikes me as very hypocritical for a lot of small farmers to complain that we don't have a drug because it's not worth the money for the pharmaceutical companies to pay for the FDA's testing procedures when there are too few animals of the target species in this country to let them make back the money. How many small farmers make the decision all the time not to call the veterinarian, to try to learn how to doctor an animal themselves, because the animal is worth less than the vet bill will be? Same thing. I submit that if more people were willing to pay for veterinary services, then we might have more drugs at our disposal.

Then there's the very real concern for antibiotic resistance. Anyone who thinks that veterinarians have a monopoly on drugs, confuses monopoly with education. A quick view of some of the pages here should give you the idea that the general public just doesn't have the knowledge, and often the sense to use them properly. CM, this is even more of a threat than your wormer resistance. There are other ways to help reduce parasites, and I'm not talking about garlic or that stupid magic dust that they're all inhaling. Rotational grazing for example. I know, not always practical, but if it's any consolation, it's not practical for most of our commercial producers either, and you can bet that when *they* start experiencing serious resistance, there will something new approved for them, which probably will help us too.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 2, 2009)

While I'm half tempted to dismiss the entire above post as possibly being the result of some sort of intoxication, I'm actually going to address it point by point.  I would address it as a whole, but it's frankly not coherent enough to allow for it.



			
				nn said:
			
		

> CM, you disappoint me man. I thought that you got it.


And we're off!



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Yes, it would be nice if we could quickly follow along with some of the sensible English speaking countries like Australia, which aren't run by a bunch or religious zealots blind to all but the teachings on some cryptic text found under a rock near the Sea of Galillee, but there's good reason why we have the process.


Soooo..  Basically what you're saying is that we're backward morons -- _but for good reason!_


			
				nn said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that our government bureaucrasy has some part in it, but does anyone remember a new drug called ProHeart 6? To refresh your memory, it was another one of the greatest things coming down the pike, touted by the pharmacutical company as being completely safe, because it was used for years in Australia. It even came in this neat new technology of microspheres, injected under the skin where they slowly released an ectin for 6 months. No more monthly heartworm pills to forget. Low and behold, the complaints started rolling in. *Now I will admit that this may not be the best example, *


Yet, you just made me read an entire paragraph about it.  Thanks!



			
				nn said:
			
		

> and I'm perfectly willing to concede that maybe the majority of those complaints were from idiots whose animals had something else going on anyway, but who were just looking for a boogyman in the form of this new fangled drug. (anyone remember the ethoxyquin scare in the 80's?) Nonetheless, Fort Dodge pulled it voluntarily, and those of us with any intelligence know that means that if they didn't, FDA was going to do it for them, which  means more trouble in the long run. Again, *a bad example*,


Not _just_ a bad example...a bad example that keeps going, and going, and going..  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> because it's recently been reintroduced to the market after a thorough review by FDA, but my point is that it did go through the process, and still there were concerns. Still, we occasionally hear about a human drug which does the same thing.


So, in a nutshell what you've basically just said is:

A) You're disappointed in me
B) I don't get it
C) America is mostly retarded, but
D) America is stringent when it comes to approving drugs, which is awesome because 
E) sometimes bad drugs get through anyway, which is...
F) um..oh, wait.  There's actually no F); it just sorta dropped off right there after making NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

 



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Now it strikes me as very hypocritical for a lot of small farmers to complain that we don't have a drug because it's not worth the money for the pharmaceutical companies to pay for the FDA's testing procedures when there are too few animals of the target species in this country to let them make back the money. How many small farmers make the decision all the time not to call the veterinarian, to try to learn how to doctor an animal themselves, because the animal is worth less than the vet bill will be? Same thing. I submit that if more people were willing to pay for veterinary services, then we might have more drugs at our disposal.


Well, it doesn't make _me_ a hypocrite to complain, because I _do_ use my vet for my goats, and I "encourage" others to do the same (with guilt and shame, if necessary...or even just if _possible_).  

Indeed, I've made the exact same argument on this very forum many times before.  Which is to say....who exactly are you talking to?!?  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Then there's the very real concern for antibiotic resistance.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're officially off the reservation.  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Anyone who thinks that veterinarians have a monopoly on drugs, confuses monopoly with education.


Which is clearly what I've done.  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> A quick view of some of the pages here should give you the idea that the general public just doesn't have the knowledge, and often the sense to use them properly. CM, this is even more of a threat than your wormer resistance.


My wormer resistance?  Who said I was battling wormer resistance?  I'm not...not yet, anyway.  I'm managing so far.

I'm just jealous of Austrailians and frustrated with Virbac for not putting Caprimec in the US.  

Perhaps I should have made that more clear from the outset.  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> There are other ways to help reduce parasites, and I'm not talking about garlic or that stupid magic dust that they're all inhaling.


Speaking of magic dust...  Have you, by any chance.......oh, nevermind.





			
				nn said:
			
		

> Rotational grazing for example. I know, not always practical, but if it's any consolation, it's not practical for most of our commercial producers either, and you can bet that when they start experiencing serious resistance, there will something new approved for them, which probably will help us too.


Um..  Ok?


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## lupinfarm (Dec 2, 2009)

CM, I think some of those comments may have been directed at me 

I'm sorry nn, but the vets DO have a monopoly here. We cannot purchase ANYTHING. We are so restricted here, I can't even get sevin dust now because of our pesticide ban. 

I know vets pay out the nose for that education, but you know what, there are a lot of vaccines/medications that we should be able to administer ourselves. I'm lucky that my equine vet will give me the vaccines to administer myself because he knows I administer my goats vaccines, but most people don't have that luxury. 

We can't even purchase feeds for our goats. 

Maybe because you live in the US you have that luxury of being able to acquire most vaccines and medications through companies like Jeffers, but we don't have that and it's extremely frustrating and hard to raise any animal. 

My vet won't even sell me the Tetanus Antitoxin or EPI pens. 

On top of that? My local farm supply is closing.. so now I have no where to get goat feed when mine runs out, I absolutely refuse to purchase TSC feeds, they're not very good quality and I had finally found a sweet grain with little molasses.

And since I'm getting a buck and wether in March/April, I'd prefer and would require Noble Goat .. well it's not sold here, so I'm going to have to find out from customs if I can bring some back across the border.

We are drastically undersupplied/underserviced and most of the reason for our lack of vaccines/wormers is our enormous vet community who, partnered with the CKC, have limited our access through the law.


I DO use my vet, but I DON'T see the necessity for me to use my vet for simple vaccinations, subcutaneously.


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## no nonsense (Dec 3, 2009)

Well CM, I could adress each of your points individually too, but I don't need to go much further than A and B. You're right on both counts, especially B.

As for Americans being backward morons, well, that's not what I intended. You took it the wrong way. In fact, my comment in that context was a compliment to the superioity of Australia, and also inferred America, compared to a lot of other backwards countries. BUT, now that you brought it up, take a look around, and you don't have to go too far if you know what I mean. You've been fighting the same battle. Likewise, the hypocritical small farmers comment was not directed at you. If I'd meant YOU, I would have written YOU. You know that it's true that many won't spend money on the vet, for whatever reasons. Again, look around, and don't go too far. Same goes for my antibiotic resistance comment, not directed at you personally, used as an example. It's not all about you.
Now I see that you don't even have wormer resistance! And *I'm* incoherent?! You are right on one other thing, you should have made things clearer from the outset. BTW, if you're going to import drugs under the radar, for perceived future threats, maybe think about just doing it quietly, not announcing it to the world. If you think that the sky is falling from the future threat of goat wormer resistance, wait until the FDA gets ahold of your little plan. Don't you think that your premature introduction of the wormer to this country will hasten the time needed before animals here also become resistant??


> ( Oh, I will have this dewormer.  You just mark my words..  I fully intend to rustle up a jug somehow.


You're fixated on substance use. Why is that?

Lupinfarm, I was referring to some of your comments, but, again, if I had meant you I would have said so. Things you stated are often claimed by other people, who don't know what they're doing. A monopoly is an unfair advantage. Veterinarians being responsible for dispensing medications is for good reason, and antibiotic misuse and resulting resistance is the best example. You too should look around, and don't go too far, to see plenty of examples of people who don't know what they're doing, using drugs in ways which they are not intended. I do sympathize with your situation, but for every one of you, I bet that there  are 20 who aren't as sensible.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

no nonsense said:
			
		

> As for Americans being backward morons, well, that's not what I intended. You took it the wrong way. In fact, my comment in that context was a compliment to the superioity of Australia, and also inferred America, compared to a lot of other backwards countries. BUT, now that you brought it up, take a look around, and you don't have to go too far if you know what I mean.


Um.  Okay?  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> You've been fighting the same battle. Likewise, the hypocritical small farmers comment was not directed at you. If I'd meant YOU, I would have written YOU. You know that it's true that many won't spend money on the vet, for whatever reasons. Again, look around, and don't go too far. Same goes for my antibiotic resistance comment, not directed at you personally, used as an example. It's not all about you.


When you start a post by saying that you're disappointed in me and thought I "got it," then go on to write what amounted to a manifesto...who was I _supposed_ to think it was directed toward?





			
				nn said:
			
		

> Now I see that you don't even have wormer resistance! And *I'm* incoherent?! You are right on one other thing, you should have made things clearer from the outset.


I'll try to remember that.



			
				nn said:
			
		

> BTW, if you're going to import drugs under the radar, for perceived future threats, maybe think about just doing it quietly, not announcing it to the world.


I'll try to remember that, too..but between you and me, I think I might already know how to get it.  





			
				nn said:
			
		

> If you think that the sky is falling from the future threat of goat wormer resistance, wait until the FDA gets ahold of your little plan. Don't you think that your premature introduction of the wormer to this country will hasten the time needed before animals here also become resistant??


Yeah, but if it's inevitable anyway....well, the early bird gets the worm I guess.  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> You're fixated on substance use. Why is that?


You're dead wrong about that, friend.  I'm not fixated on substance use -- I'm fixated on having the best stuff possible in my medicine cabinet because I care about my animals.  Maybe it's just me, but I've always found that it's much better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it -- especially when lives are on the line.

For instance...earlier this summer, I searched and searched and finally managed to wrangle up a partial bottle (87/100) of Levasole sheep boluses from an old-timey independent feed store.  They tried to explain to me that I could buy them by the pill as needed, but I insisted on buying them all.  I got the impression that they thought I was crazy, but I'd say that impression only lasted until they tried to order another bottle and found that anything containing levamisole hydrochloride is rare as hens' teeth these days.

Was that selfish of me?  Devious?  Maybe...but I also wouldn't blame someone else for buying them out from under me, just like had happened at Valley Vet, Jeffers, KV, etc.  That's just the way it goes.

Now...like I said, that was months ago..  Care to take a guess at how many I have remaining?

Yep...87.  Haven't used single bolus yet.  

The expiration is a long ways off, so I'm keeping them just in case I happen run into some particularly nasty white-/clear-dewormer resistant parasites.  The Levasole boluses are my "nuclear option," basically.

So, no...it's not at all about using as many chemicals as possible.  It's about having them in my arsenal, should the need arise.  

And it just so happens that, after reading about it, Caprimec is something I'd like to have in my arsenal.  And, yeah, I plan to have it...somehow, some way.


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## no nonsense (Dec 3, 2009)

OK, now we're making progress, but you're still off track on a few things. The substance abuse thing was directed at your comments toward me, more than once, regarding same, not your use of "chemicals" per se. You should know by now that I'm not one of the DE freaks. I'm big on using drugs, if needed, the right way. Oh, no, we're going back there again...
My manifesto? Is that as in Marx, or Kazinsky? Never mind, I don't want to know.
Levasole, wonderful! Good for you! Glad that it has a long expiration date. Hope that you didn't pay all that much, or if you did, you intend on using it before it's up. Otherwise, false economy. But, not my money, so why do I care anyway.
Yes, the early bird gets the worm. He's also the first to get worm resistance. Well, no, not the first, because he may better know how to use it properly, but he's getting a head start.
FWIW, the disappointed and got it coments were meant to be tongue in cheek, from one sensible animal owner to another. Take it that way or not, no matter to me, but it's nice to converse with others who are on your own level, agree or not, I think.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

no nonsense said:
			
		

> OK, now we're making progress, but you're still off track on a few things. The substance abuse thing was directed at your comments toward me, more than once, regarding same, not your use of "chemicals" per se. You should know by now that I'm not one of the DE freaks. I'm big on using drugs, if needed, the right way. Oh, no, we're going back there again...


Speaking of substance abuse, I think I'm also witnessing some sort of progression..

 

I literally have no idea what you're talking about..  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> My manifesto? Is that as in Marx, or Kazinsky?


Kinda.



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Never mind, I don't want to know.


Oops.  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Levasole, wonderful! Good for you! Glad that it has a long expiration date. Hope that you didn't pay all that much, or if you did, you intend on using it before it's up. Otherwise, false economy. But, not my money, so why do I care anyway.


I was wondering the same thing....why _do_ you care?  

For what it's worth, I paid what anyone else would have paid.  And if I've still got a bunch left when the expiration is nearing, I've got plenty of goatkeeping friends who I'm sure would have no problem shelling out a few bucks for a few boluses, especially considering how hard they are to find these days.

Actually, considering I tracked down and bought the very last of a valuable, hard-to-find product, I actually wouldn't doubt what I could turn a profit if I really wanted!



			
				nn said:
			
		

> Yes, the early bird gets the worm. He's also the first to get worm resistance. Well, no, not the first, because he may better know how to use it properly, but he's getting a head start.


Yeah...just like Apple got a big headstart on having the oldest, most out-of-date touch screen mobile in the iPhone by being the first to come out with it.

Clearly a bonehead move.  



			
				nn said:
			
		

> FWIW, the disappointed and got it coments were meant to be tongue in cheek, from one sensible animal owner to another. Take it that way or not, no matter to me, but it's nice to converse with others who are on your own level, agree or not, I think.


Though somewhat reluctantly, I agree.


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## no nonsense (Dec 4, 2009)

> Though somewhat reluctantly, I agree.


Well, Im starting to wonder. Not that you're reluctant, that I believe. It's the agreement part that I'm beginning to doubt.

Manifesto....another tongue in cheek reference to one of your quips toward me. Marx and Kazinsky each wrote one. Or don't you know who they are? Try to keep up, will ya?


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

nn said:
			
		

> Well, Im starting to wonder. Not that you're reluctant, that I believe. It's the agreement part that I'm beginning to doubt.


....um....._burn?_





			
				nn said:
			
		

> Manifesto....another tongue in cheek reference to one of your quips toward me. Marx and Kazinsky each wrote one. Or don't you know who they are? Try to keep up, will ya?


Who?  Wait, are you telling me that I did NOT invent the word "manifesto?"  Moreover, are you saying that not only did I NOT invent the word "manifesto," but that two strange and unknown people have already _written_ manifestos?!?

I'm sorry, you'll have to give me a moment...my worldview just shattered and I'm off to get a dustbroom.



(...am I the only one seeing this?...  )


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## freemotion (Dec 4, 2009)

Hey, you two ever hear of e-mail or PM?    Sheesh.  So predictable.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)




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## FarmerChick (Dec 4, 2009)




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## mully (Dec 4, 2009)

This thread is just an ugly battle ... nobody wins !!


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

For those who haven't noticed...this thread, and the other one in which I'm apparently doing 'battle' with someone are pretty much the only two threads that have moved today..

Moreover...also for those who maybe haven't noticed...this forum is slowly but surely DYING.

So, if you want...we can be dry and uninteresting and hold our tongues and make sure nobody's toes ever get stepped on, and then we can eventually curl up and blow away from a complete lack of interest in this place..

Or....

We can say what's on our minds and make people wanna come back and see what happens next.

Totally up to y'all.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 4, 2009)

So the drama continues------(insert theme to JAWS)


I will stay tuned.


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## freemotion (Dec 4, 2009)

I prefer a lively discussion that contains no potshots.  It is possible.  I'm involved in such discussions on a daily basis.  I learn a lot, teach a lot, am inspired to go do research, and sometimes just shrug and walk away.  I don't feel a need to convince everyone to think and do exactly the way I do.  What a boring world that would be!

I don't think this forum is dying.  I think it is shifting.  Lurkers will soon feel it is safe to join and post.  I hope.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

BAM -- two more posts.

See what I mean?  You're only proving my point, ya know.


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## ksalvagno (Dec 4, 2009)

What would BYH do without you boys!

Remember the Prince song from the 80's that had the line "Act you age, not your shoe size?"


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## cmjust0 (Dec 4, 2009)

You're only young once, but you can be immature forever.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 5, 2009)

Problem I see with this forum.....is everyone has just a few animals.
Seriously, how much info can one handle about 3 goats.

I was a farm business in meat goats.  I handled big herds.   So for me finding the best method of making money was important when I handled this venture as a business.

Yes you can be a small biz with 4 goats and breed and sell etc.

But what I see is Backyard Herds is a pet haven.  

It is important to discuss pet care and being farm livestock it is good to know how to handle alot of problems that occur before we have to call a vet......but in general...how much of that info can one chat about on this board?


So for me it is pets vs. real farming of livestock and DO NOT get me wrong....I like the forum, it provides good info and helps people with new goats, sheep, etc....but it needs to be what it is.  Don't try to make something it isn't...it just won't work..LOL

good info, good chat with people of like minds, etc.   Enjoy the forum..I do.


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## freemotion (Dec 5, 2009)

I agree, FC, and I really appreciate input from the pro's....but yes, it is BACKYARD herds.  I don't need to make money with my goats.  If I could break even I'd be thrilled, but I doubt that will happen.  I think most people who come here are trying to care for their pets in the best way that they can, and are looking for ideas and help with problems.  

So I don't see a need for the potshots.  It annoys me, and drives some people away.  If people would just be polite and kind while expressing their opinions, the whole world would be a better place.  The anonymity of the internet seems to give some people license to be mean.  Or maybe, as cmjust0 said, immature.  Immature children become mature by being corrected when they misbehave. 

BTW, I just ran fecals on all five goats.  Only found a very few eggs in the buck's poo, and he has been here for maybe two months, and was quarantined in a pen that never held goats for a month before any gal went in with him.  Found one or two in each of the samples from my girls.  Down from my last check, where the numbers were in the acceptable low-mid teens.  I hadn't wormed them since the last fecal exams.


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## Sweet Cheeks (Dec 5, 2009)

Back to wormers - 

I have had my first two goats since Oct 09.  They are brother and sister, wether and doeling Reg Nubians.  I was told by the 4-H family I got them from they had been wormed in August with Valbazen.

I haven't wormed them yet.  I admit I'm a little nervous about what to use and when.

I bought a bottle of Safeguard Dewormer for goats the last time I was at the feed store.  Fenbendazole Suspension 10%.  

Just not sure how to give to them.  I had horses at one time and it was easy giving them the paste wormers.

My goats don't like me messing with their heads, faces, or mouths.

I tried looking at their gums to see if they were pink or not and that was quite a challenge.  Their gums looked a little pale.  Not pink at all.

Any recommendations for me - please?


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## ksalvagno (Dec 6, 2009)

Safeguard is given orally at 1cc per 10lbs. I would buy a dosing syringe. It comes in 20cc or 50cc and has a long metal "syringe" on it that you can get further into the goat's mouth to make sure the med goes down. This is not a needle. It is basically a small tube.

I would have a fecal done first and see if you have any worms and what type. Safeguard doesn't take care of coccidia.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2009)

Sweet Cheeks said:
			
		

> Back to wormers -
> 
> I have had my first two goats since Oct 09.  They are brother and sister, wether and doeling Reg Nubians.  I was told by the 4-H family I got them from they had been wormed in August with Valbazen.
> 
> ...


As for the logistics of drenching a wiley goat.....  Get straddle of its neck and squeeze enough to keep it from backing out.. Then take your non-dominant hand and grab their chin putting your thumb through their mouth sideways, just behind the lower front teeth.  There's a void between the front and back teeth, and they don't have upper teeth, so they can't really bite you.  If you're holding their lower jaw and have them locked between your legs, they can't really go anywhere.  Then use your dominant hand to dose.

If you're going to be putting more than maybe 5-6ml down one at a time, a drench gun  is probably worth using.  I like to try to hold their head a bit more level and push slowly while I'm drenching with that much liquid, whereas I'm liable to tip'em back and push quickly with just a few ml..  

As for Safe Guard...it's pretty safe, but it's also pretty much lost all effect against worms around here and in lots of other places.  Still, if I had a goat with white eyelids, I'd probably use it first just to see if I could knock the wormload down a bit before moving to something stronger.  I don't remember the Safe Guard dosage right off hand, but 1ml/10lbs shouldn't hurt anybody.  When we use Safe Guard, we use it 1x/day for 3 straight days.  

If I were you, I'd also go grab a bottle of 1% injectable ivermectin.  Ivomec brand, or a generic like Noromectin brand should be fine so long as it's 1% injectable.  Dose that ORALLY at about 1ml/30lbs of goat, and you may need to repeat the treatment in maybe 10 days or so.


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## FarmerChick (Dec 7, 2009)

If it has horns....tie a lead rope to the horns and tie secure.
this gives you the advantage of straddling him and him staying put and then have at it....works for me all the time tying them up to restrain.

No horns, tie around the neck then secure.



eyelids tell a good story too....check the eyelid color...should be very very pink.  if pale you must worm or check for any other problems


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## Goatzilla (Dec 9, 2009)

CM, I found some levasole here, but I'm not sure of what form. It comes with directions for poultry, but I'm sure that someone as resourceful as yourself can 'figger out how to get it into a goat, lol. I buy a lot of poultry stuff from these people and have always been satisfied. Check out the prices on poultry supplies, (feeders, waterers, etc.)  http://www.firststatevetsupply.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=74


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## cmjust0 (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks for the link...wonder if they still actually have it?  

It appears to be levamisole soluble pig wormer.  If so, the info I'm getting says there's 18.5g of levamisole hydrochloride per bottle of powder.  

I have read in several reputable places that the goat dosage for levamisole is 12mg/kg...but don't hold me to that~   Especially considering I've also seen references to _doubling_ the sheep dose, as well as administering _only_ the sheep dose, with the sheep dose being 8mg/kg.  Basically, it's up to whomever to do whatever they feel is best if they choose to use it.  Levasole can be OD'd, so keep that in mind.

In any case, proceeding at the dosage of 12mg/kg and coming back to the pig wormer......if each 20.17g bottle contains 18.5g of levamisole hcl, then each gram of powder contains 917mg of levamisole hcl.  That's enough to treat about 168.5lbs of goat.  If we divide 50 by 168.5, we get right about 0.297..  If I'm correct, that number would represent the grams of pig wormer per 50lbs of goat.  

In other words, the dosage on the soluble pig wormer -- *if* my math is correct! -- should be just about 300mg/50lbs of goat..  At that rate, the whole bottle should contain enough levamisole hcl to treat about 3,083lbs of goat.  If you average your adults at around 150lbs, that $50 bottle would basically provide one-time treatment for 20 head of adults..  About $2.50/head.

Comparatively...just for kicks...if you were to administer Cydectin pour-on orally at 1ml/20lbs, it would take about 150ml to treat the same 3,000lb of adult goats.  A 500ml bottle of that stuff is like $60-something at jeffers, and you'd be using 30% of the bottle...or, about $20 worth...or, about $1/head.

But, hey...the most expensive wormer any of us could possibly use is the one that doesn't work.  If I hadn't already thrown pretty decent money at a bottle of Levasole sheep boluses, I'd be on the horn with first state vet right now, just to have this stuff on hand!


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## crocee (Dec 26, 2009)

This thread piqued my interest as I am always on the look out for wormers that actually work. The active ingredient listed in the OP is availiable he in the U.S. and has been for quite a while. Its a restricted use miticide/pesticide for crops. Its sold under the trade names of: 
Abba, Affirm, Agri-Mek, Avid, Dynamec, Vertimec, Zephyr and Cure 1.8 EC

IF you had a bunch of goats you wouldn't mind loosing to science you might have a study done.

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/abamectin-ext.html


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