# Tapeworms and the valbazen ain't working....



## EggsForIHOP (Apr 26, 2012)

among other things....seems resistant stuff is 10 times worse this year due to last years drought...yup...what the vet and a few others are telling me is that the drought left only the "Super Strong" to survive and then the overly wet spring we had magnified it.  The cocci issue is a WHOLE nother thread...only toltrazuril works anymore (and it's not just myself locally having THAT problem)...but we haven't put our finger on what to do about the tapeworms...

and I have heard/read that tapes aren't an issue...but I beg to differ.  The 2 goats with the heaviest load on fecals are pot bellied, coats are duller than the rest and they are growing and not anemic...MUCH...but we ran a blood count and they were lower than the others...not to mention SLIGHTLY thinner in the hips than the other kids...you have to look to see the difference but I was able to name them before the vet did when he gave me results...I guess because I look at them all the time right?

We tried Valbazen at 1cc to 10lbs and it did NOTHING...now we are looking into other options....vets calling around and I am curious myself...

I am asking ya'll this:  WHAT WORKS for you?  I don't care what is "cost effective" as I now get to toss a worthless to me bottle of valbazen....but what works at what dose? Do you do fecals to check results? That's really my ONLY issue with the herd now...a FEW strongyles in the adults...but not enough to worm over and had to look the WHOLE slide over to find them...the cocci that won't die without toltrazuril...and tapes in the kids....we've seemingly got the cocci licked...but now to fix my potbellied goats what direction should I be looking and reading into? I'm waiting for Monday to hear back from the vet on this one...he's consulting others...so until then it leaves me curious...


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## babsbag (Apr 26, 2012)

I use safe-guard at 3x the dose listed for tape. For now it is working. 

I am in No. California. BTW


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## Bunny-kids (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm maybe a couple hours north of you ... the valbazen worked for me, I did 8cc for a very underweight yearling high-% Nubian doe (VERY skinny), 3 days in a row. She expelled a load of tapes after the first dose. 

I didn't worm at all last year, had no issues. I was telling a dairy farmer friend at least the worms were down with the horrible drought -- that was all we could find good in it. 

I don't worm unless there is a clear need for it though, and I tend to use weaker wormers when possible. Half my herd came from a farm that rotated and wormed regularly, and the other half came from a farm that used herbals as a preventative. All of them came to me as kids though ... I no longer have the adults I brought in (though they would have brought the worms with them). 

Hope you get it under control. Maybe I'm dosing more per weight than you? I'm afraid I don't know the doe's weight. I'd guess her around 70ish pounds though, she's dropped so much. Maybe even less.

(Btw, I wouldn't toss the valbazen, maybe you'll need it another time? It cost me $4 for a bottle to worm this doe 3 days at that rate, and I have only a tiny bit left over.)


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## Roll farms (Apr 27, 2012)

Are you giving it for 3 days in a row?  Valbazen still works for us (Indiana) for tapes, if given 3 days in a row, and I use 1cc per 20#.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 27, 2012)

synanthic given at the rate of 3cc per 100lbs, It will be pricey to get a bottle. 



Or quest plus or equimax horse paste given at the rate of 3 times the label dosage,   So a 100lb goat would get a 300lb dosage. $10.00 to $13.00 a tube and treats 1,200 lb horse so 400lbs of goats. Synanthic is cheaper for us, since we have so many goats, but if you only have a couple goats this would be cheaper. Praziquantel is off label for meat or milk, so I would consider this when using it.  

Quest plus Horse paste has the ingredients in it that cydectin has, plus a tapeworm medicine called praziquantel.  It will for sure work. 

And Equimax Horse paste is ivermectin and praziquantel.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 27, 2012)

First I'm going to say that I have just about every drug either in my refrigerator or animal cabinet. So I do not hesitate to use the usual chemical wormers. However, it sounds like in your case, you may want to look into the herbal. I would go to Fir Meadow and look at her products and even consult with Kat.  If you use the chemical dewormers, you do need to be sure that you are using the correct dosage and for the correct number of days.

I know someone that had major trouble with coccidia years ago in adult goats. She was losing goats right and left and the usual dewormers weren't working. She was working with a knowledgeable goat vet too. She finally decided the heck with it and figured she couldn't lose goats any faster and tried herbal methods. It worked for her and she didn't lose any more goats.  So if you are at the end of chemical dewormers, you may want to try herbal but I would consult with someone like Kat who currently owns a herd of goats and is a master herbalist.


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## elevan (Apr 27, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Are you giving it for 3 days in a row?  Valbazen still works for us (Indiana) for tapes, if given 3 days in a row, and I use 1cc per 20#.


Same here but we can use it at 1 ml / 25#


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## EggsForIHOP (Apr 27, 2012)

The cocci we FINALLY have under control - with toltrazuril - so that is in check.  The ONLY problem the vet sees with that is that it flat out kills ALL life stages so we are going to have to slowly back off the dosing so they can build resistance.  WEll...not the actual dose, but the time INBETWEEN doses.  Right now we will do a few rounds at 21 days apart to give them a chance to clear it from their system, grow a little more into older bigger goats...then start doing fecals and just kind of wait and see...at 4 weeks, small load...no meds...at 5 weeks...small load...no meds...at 6 weeks it goes up and we dose again....the goal will be to be doing NO meds at around 6 - 7 months of age UNLESS needed and letting them go longer between doses until it's no longer an issue.

Basically we want ALL the kids to be around 3 - 4 months old BEFORE we aren't doing regular "prevention" but instead "regular monitoring" and then start over next year in more of a prevention mode by cleaning kid areas WELL with ammonia BEFORE kids come and watching kids before we dose and such.  Every time I take fecals to the vet, he's been making me do more of my own work and teaching me how to do them...part of why he isn't charging me I am sure  SO I have that new thing to learn and conquer - though I can tell you VERY confidently I have figured out a tapeworm egg from a coccidia oocyst now 

IN answer to RollFarms - nope, we just did one day of Valbazen at 1cc - 10lbs...

My BIGGEST problem that we can think of is this:  I live on an old hog farm...and LORD ONLY KNOWS what they were up to here!  I figured when we got this place that A) MOST stuff is specific to the actual critter....i.e. CAE is not a pig issue but a goat issue and B) it was empty for 2 - 3 years so no worries....BUT sadly like the vet pointed out...they had 300+ pigs on 10acres at one point - thus it was wet and mucky to the max...and they came and went from fairs and shows and OTHER FARMS...so as far as parasites go...they were able to be brought in and left semi-dormant through the travels on the people here and the wildlife....especially through the drought...he said a couple other people warned him when it turned wet in February that it was going to be a hard spring with the parasites and it has been.

My adults are NOT having problems...but I wormed like twice last year - once when we moved because of the stress factor of that (a round of cydectin for all prior to loading up in the jeep)and I think it was May or June once last year for tapeworms - and one day of valbazen at the same dose I used this year BUT AT THE OLD HOUSE and the 2 that had them expelled them and it was gross!  Those 2 does are now older and have what we consider "clean" fecals...meaning one or 2 of this and that but nothing to worm about...

ksalvagno - I really may just try incorporating some of the herbal things if only to help keep stuff in check for kids while they grow.  Maybe after we get all the kids on the track to "clean" themselves I will add that to help them build resistance like the adults have - I think the adults got lucky with the drought and kept such low loads of most things they have an iron gut now of sorts...I still watch them...but the ONLY adult I HAD issues with was LUCY and she wasn't RAISED by me...I got her as an adult from another breeder 4 hours northwest of me...one that I know does NOT use anything but the ivomecs and sulmet in their herd....she was preggo when she came here, and I ONLY gave her ivomec after traveling due to that...AND THEN an issue came up...We tossed that old proverbial book at her and she got better and is still gaining weight AND giving the most milk now....but it wasn't until right when she kidded that I caught on and was able to get a handle on it because I was in denial a bit with her...now...just like 3 stomach worms on her fecal and once little cocci oocyst when we were looking....and she kidded over 2 months ago and hasn't been wormed since then at all...the vet even scrunched up and floated another round of her poo to double check....I take all respsonsibility for letting her get down in condition..but the vet thinks it may be linked to coming from a place where she had resistance to one where she had none to what we have...looking back of course...

And while I was typing the vet called to say to try the equimax at 1cc to 25lbs - squish it out and suck it into a syringe to measure so I don't know if that is the same dose as 20kids on hill recommend or not...I'm gonna have to look at the tube....he wants me to do the boys for 3 days and the girls for 1 day since they are housed apart and there are less buckings than doelings and then collect fecals Monday morning....and we will go from there...but I think we are looking for the lowest "steady dose potential" to get them knocked out he said? Basically it will be LESS ivermectin but MORE praziquantel per tube and there have been no issues with the equimax where as zimecterin HAS had issues with the carrier causing chemical burns in the past? He also said to really knock it out we will probably eb re-dosing in 10 days and then just watching after that...

Can you tell I don't have anyone to talk to who understands this AT ALL besides the vet?  My husband just stares at me....my friends mostly don't have any pets besides cats and dogs...and my goat friends are few and far between and half even less experienced then me (if thats possible)....once i get this figured out I'll feel SO much better!


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 27, 2012)

Let me know how the 1 cc per 25 lbs works out.  And if you can tell if it is close to my recommended dosage of giving them 3x what is recommended for horse. I bet it is, there aren't that many cc's in a tube. 

I am sure it will work, Praziquantel  doesn't just remove the segments of tapeworms, but also removes the head.


Your coccidioisis problem sounds scary, so far on our farm, just some medicated feed and treating every 21 days with a fairly low dose of corid or sulfa-dimethoxine in the water has worked just fine. It is scary to think it can become that difficult to treat.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 27, 2012)

My vet recommends 1cc per 10 lbs for both Safeguard (Panacur) and Valbazen.


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## EggsForIHOP (Apr 27, 2012)

It HAS been scary 20kidsonhill!  The vet really thinks it has to do with our location though....being an ex-pig factory of sorts...I mean c'mon now...who has over 300 of ANYTHING except maybe chickens on just 10 ACRES! (and that is still a LOT of freakin chickens!) THAT IS A CRAZY amount of pigs!  And from what the neighbors have said this place was pretty nasty when the old owners were here...so even though pig and goat cocci are 2 different types...who knows what was tracked in and thriving in the soil before the drought and who knows what was being dosed at what levels no less IF anything ever because their cleanliness is CLEARLY in question....it's like we picked a ticking time bomb of parasites and we THOUGHT we were safe because of the drought and being abandoned....but NO it made it WORSE! 

Thankfully, we DO have this new thing (well, new to ME) and I must admit...I WISH I had it all along! The ONLY hard part is going to be doing things so that the goats are allowed to build resistance to cocci as they age...and hitting them at the right times with it so they can.  If we have made it this far with only one REALLY sick goat and a few that were borderline but fighting it...well...the vet says my little herd ins't too bad off  But even still...if 1 or 2 bottles of this gets me through NINE kids all season...than I am WAY ahead of where I was with the "old stand by" financially TOO! Now that I look back, as much as so many websites preach to fecal before worming but always just to DO cocci prevention...well...I see where it for me at least has been almost like I was creating work chasing down kids like clockwork instead of checking first...

I did the math...look...let's say a 15lb kid, their FIRST round of cocci prevention....using di-methox....5days, at 1cc - 5lbs day 1 and 1cc - 10lbs day 2-5 = 9cc of di-methox 40% right? A 250ml bottle is 22.89 right now...or .09cents per ml....that's .81cents for 5 days....toltrazuril is $66 (after shipping) for 200ml...or .33 cents per ml....a 15lb kid would get 3cc...that's .99cents roughly...slightly more you say...BUT the kicker is you don't do it every 3 weeks all season...JUST when you need to! And then there is the time factor...time IS money...if I only have to do it ONCE on ONE day I have saved myself an hour of prepping and catching goats and dosing each day...that is a lot of time...and I haven't even done the math on the corrid...don't want to as at $80+ a bottle and with a mostly full bottle probably going unused here unless I find a friend that wants it and it works for them...well...let's just say THAT was a sad financial waste for me! I just stare at that jug and shake my head....

I will admit though...I wouldn't go back to our old place that was so fast becoming an over crowded urban sprawling mess ...nope...wouldn't trade this last week for that at ALL!  I do love being able to hunt deer from my back porch in the fall/winter and feed in my pajamas!  I will keep you posted on how it turns out with the worming...just refrigerating samples until Monday at this point...my husband says he is going to stop and get me a small "poo only" fridge for meds and such...and poo...LOL...because he is tired of the "meat bin" being the mystery bin! I told him to not worry because soon I would have a microscope and I would be doing my own checks and wouldn't need to save stuff in the fridge...and he looked even more worried about "science experiments in the kitchen"....don't worry...I plan to do it out in the shed...but he thinks I'm doing it in the kitchen! LOL...I have to find something to laugh about, and teasing him right now brings me a laugh I REALLY need!


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 27, 2012)

We put it in the drinking water, and although corid is twice as much as sulfa-dimethoxine in cost, you use less. So it figures out to be about the same in cost. 

WE are only using the 12.5 % sulfa-dimethoxine, in the gallon jug for $45 and treating at the rate of 1 cc per 5 lbs day one and, 1 cc per 10lbs day 2-5. Or if they are drinking adequate amounts of water I am putting 1 ounce of sulfa in 2 gallons of drinking water. 

With the Corid I am putting 2 ounces of corid in 5 gallons of water the first couple of days and then 1 ounce per 5 gallons of drinking water after that. 

That is assumming everyone is drinking and they aren't eating too much wet pasture,  That makes it trickier, and we have had to catch them all and treat by hand because of decreased water consumption because of wet pasture. 


Although I have used a couple tricks, put out a bale of hay for them to eat, and put out fresh minerals, That often gets them drinking more, even if it had just rained.  

Most the times our kids are born in January and hopefully by the time it worms up most are sold, or are more resistant.  But with this crazy winter we have been really making sure we stay on top of it. 

We also creep feed with a medicated feed, it really helps with the kids that are 6 weeks or older and are eating a good amount of feed by that time. But outbreaks are still possible. 

I am babbling, and need to go do barn chores.  

Take care. 
and I am sure the Horse wormer will do its job and get rid of those tapeworms for you.  At least for a while.  We find JUne and July is our worst time for Tapeworms, but they have started extra early this year. We have already seen droppings with tapes in them.


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