# 6 Month old Buck..Scur removal. Vet says no drugs needed?



## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

My buck Elias is getting his scurs burned off tommorrow...vet coming to assist my husband.  When I made the appointment I asked about what we can give him to calm him..I understand he cant go under..but he basically said..we'll see. (Not an answer I like when it comes to my goats.)  He said he generally does not use drugs on goats for this.  

The only reason Im asking for some sedation is that Elias is huge 125 lbs already..and very strong..all muscle. And very timid and shy.  Not going to be an easy task..and the stantion is basically for the girls and non painful reactions by the goats! It will have be remade tonight if we expect it to hold him effectively...

Additionally, he is 6 months and this is gonna be very painful for him.
I know its a neccessary evil..cuz they are curling and he keeps snapping them off with a bloody mess afterward...so I am just looking for any input???

I have never dealt with older ones that have scurs..this boy was not our herd..introduced for new blood lines...but we've always been lucky and got them in the first few weeks with no issues...and also what is the course afterward of any medications after it done...just wanting input from experience..rather just soley relying on my vet....thanks!


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## ksalvagno (Nov 9, 2010)

You could always give him some banamine after. I don't know if this is safe in goats but what about Torbegesic? We use it on alpacas to calm them down but not knock them out.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2010)

A little acepromazine or xylazine would be handy, just to keep him a little more calm.

If we're talking wiggly scurs that aren't attached to the skull, then I'd probably give him a shot of something to calm, then numb the local area with some lidocain and *cut* the scurs out.  Blood stop...bandage...probably a precautionary round of injectable antibiotics...maybe some tetanus antitoxin, depending on when he was last vaccinated.  Bottom line, though is that it should be very minor surgery that's a done deal in no time flat.

I don't think I'd burn, though.  

Then again, I don't think I'm a vet, either.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

Im perplexed about the whole thing...and Im trying not to let my compassion get in the way of doing right by him...they gotta come off.
Im not a fan of the burning at all because of the age.  The scurs are not wiggling..one is but the other is fully attached...but curls...

Would cutting them be as productive?  Will they be gone?  I dont want to put the poor thing thru this to find they grow back?

This is a good one...I am nervous about this procedure and I left a message for my vet to call me to discuss further medications and options, in case he needs to bring anymore supplies in the truck...and I said this is Becky @ Emmetts Dairy..can you please leave a note to have doc call me to discuss Elias's scur removal...and she said she "sure Elias the horse is scheduled for scur removal wed right?"  MMMM what horse do you know has scurs???  Oh boy..now Im really nervous!!  LOL


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## ksalvagno (Nov 9, 2010)

I'd like to see the horse that needs a scur removed! Are you hiding a unicorn?  

If it is an intact male, then there is the chance that scurs will grow back. You can alway opt to cut them enough that the curl won't grow into his head but you will be doing it on a regular basis. I don't have enough experience to know for sure that they won't grow back but my vet did burn a 6 month old bucks scurs for me and they haven't grown back at all. Nothing was used for him during the procedure but he's a Nigerian Dwarf and we could subdue him. He did get banamine after.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Im not a fan of the burning at all because of the age.  The scurs are not wiggling..one is but the other is fully attached...but curls...


So they're not wiggly, but one is.  

What does that mean, exactly?

As for the one that's "fully attached," I fail to see what good burning's gonna do.  The point of burning horn buds is to kill the horn cells in the skin.  You're basically cauterizing a ring around the center of the horn bud which chokes off the blood supply...it dies, dries up, pops off, and heals over with new, non-horn-cell skin.

If the horn cells have already developed, invaded the skull, fused, and begun growing horn, what good is burning going to do?

The solid one needs a nipper or a wire "horn saw" -- not a disbudding iron.  

If the other one is wiggly, well...like I said, I'd use a local anaesthetic (lidocaine) and cut it out.  If he needed generation sedation for the procedure, so be it..

You *could* burn that one off, but if it's big enough to be a problem, then I would think the likelihood that it's going to fit inside the ring of a disbudding iron is slim to none.....and slim's got a bad habit of leaving town unannounced.



> Would cutting them be as productive?  Will they be gone?  I dont want to put the poor thing thru this to find they grow back?


Some goats have to have scurs trimmed back regularly, if they grow just right...or just wrong, I guess you'd say.  Folks just take a little off as it begins to curl into the skin around it and then wait for it to happen again.  Kinda becomes a bit like hoof trimming, I guess....just something ya gotta do from time to time.



> "sure Elias the horse is scheduled for scur removal wed right?"  MMMM what horse do you know has scurs???  Oh boy..now Im really nervous!!  LOL


You should have told her to ask the vet if he could shoe Elias while he was out there..  That would have REALLY confused everybody.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the horse that needs a scur removed! Are you hiding a unicorn?


Is it wrong that I've wondered whether or not it would be possible to disbud the horn bud off one side, then graft the other onto the middle of a goat's forehead?


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## ksalvagno (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm not sure a goat would pass for a unicorn!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I'd like to see the horse that needs a scur removed! Are you hiding a unicorn?


   I wish!!    and that would just be my irish luck too..having the only Unicorn on earth and his horn would be a scur!!  LOL


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> You should have told her to ask the vet if he could shoe Elias while he was out there..  That would have REALLY confused everybody.


  Tell him to bring some fancy shoes for my Unicorn and he would come with hoof trimmers~!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> You should have told her to ask the vet if he could shoe Elias while he was out there..  That would have REALLY confused everybody.


  Tell him to bring some fancy shoes for my Unicorn and he would come with hoof trimmers~!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
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Good question..that was a little confusing huh!!  Sorry...it means his left one I can wiggle..and his right is much larger and wider.  And does not wiggle at all..

My vet spoke of sawing them and then burning..and he did say that it may take a few hits with the iron because of the size.   

I am not a fan of burning more due to the pain the poor things gonna have to endure.  When they are babies..is much easier..as sick as that my sound??  

I think any clear thinking about this is becoming clouded with compassion...But I wanna do the right thing.  We have already trim the curly scur.  The problem isant trimming the problem is he keeps getting it caught in the fence.  I wanna elimate the continued injury and bleeding for the poor guy...the shape of it is a pain for him...and the risk of infection etc...just not good.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Good question..that was a little confusing huh!!  Sorry...it means his left one I can wiggle..and his right is much larger and wider.  And does not wiggle at all..


Ok..  So, the left one didn't invade the skull, but the right one did.  And, if I'm following correctly, it's the one that curls, gets caught in the fence, etc..  Correct?

The left one can be removed either by burning or cutting...I'd cut.  I think we've established that.  Ultimately, though, he'll probably remove that one by himself from time to time..

The right one....since it's invaded the skull, it's bone, which means it's pretty much going to require dehorning.  



> My vet spoke of sawing them and then burning..and he did say that it may take a few hits with the iron because of the size.


Your vet doesn't understand the situation.  My gut tells me he's thinking the buck's got wiggly scurs that keep getting knocked off and doesn't realise that one's invaded the skull..  

My hope is that he'll know what to do when he gets there and sees what he's working with..



> I am not a fan of burning more due to the pain the poor things gonna have to endure.  When they are babies..is much easier..as sick as that my sound??


It's not a matter of the pain being less when they're babies -- it's a matter of that particular procedure being designed to work on babies.  Once they're not babies anymore, it's pretty much time to pick another method, but not because of the pain -- because that particular method is **designed to work when they're babies.**

Does that make sense?



> I think any clear thinking about this is becoming clouded with compassion...


Not compassion...sympathy.  You know what pain feels like, and you don't want your goat to feel pain.  That's sympathy.  Compassion is a really good thing to to keep around when you have animals, but unfortunately, sympathy kinda has to go out the window sometimes in order to do compassionate things.

Them's the breaks.



> But I wanna do the right thing.  We have already trim the curly scur.  The problem isant trimming the problem is he keeps getting it caught in the fence.


Ok, so...what exactly happens when he gets it caught in the fence?  Does it get knocked loose and wiggle for a while, or is it still sturdy?  Where does the blood come from; the end?...a crack in the middle?...somewhere around the base?  Is it possible to trim it back to a size/shape that's not likely to get hooked in the fence without hurting him too badly?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

Correct...the right is the one that invaded the skull.  The left he has torn off a few times.  And the right has cracked twice..in the middle and at the base....and he bleed very badly from that right one cracking.  The left one that he has torn off just bleed a little..really with no big issue.  So its the right that gives me the most concern.  

When he cracked the right the crack was at the base. Did not come off just cracked . He yelped at that one and was in alot of pain and I could'nt touch his head for a while.  We held him down to clean and blue kote...but no love touch was allowed at all. 

We had tried to shape it a bit so to elminate that catching factor. But not successful. It got caught again.   I am very concerned about him seriously injuring himself as he gets older and stronger...as I said he is a very big boy...and hes only getting bigger and stronger and more damage could come to him.  We have dealt with that right horn with two good cracks in a 3 months.  And the left 2x...so thats 4 injuries in 3 months.  It just happens to often to not address and try to repair. 

So dehorning the right...and cutting the left?  Is that what Im hearing.  

And no I get the feeling my vet is shooting from the hip too and when he arrives he hopefully will make the right call.  He did look at him in August when vacinating...but he has grown so much since then and things have changed.  But I appreciate the information cuz I dont like just one opinion when It comes to the treatment.  And its nice to be somewhat informed of options before following the vet blindly.  As we know..we are all capable of error.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2010)

Yeah, so pretty much he's gonna come out there and realize he's in for a de-horning when it comes to the problem scur.  The iron's gonna be useless for that side, unless he simply uses it as a heat source to cauterize what he makes bleed with a saw or horn scoop..

Since this thing's a _horn_, basically, with a blood flow, etc....I'm kinda wondering if we have other options here.  

Have you considered at least *trying* to band it off?  Like, file a notch around it and then band it off with either an elastrator or a piece of steel wire twisted down really tight?  I mean, I know he runs the risk of catching it again while it's being banded off, but...well...perhaps if you can find a way to keep him out of the fence long enough.

Would probably be a pain, I know, but I'm just thinking it might allow you to avoid the "hole into the sinus cavity" issue..

Just thinkin'..


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

We have considered trying to band it off.  But again..its a long time frame and not very comfortable for him.     And will he endure all that just to have it appear again???? 

It is a complicated decision due to that right side.  I too am very concerned about de horning and the exposure of the sinus...that as well is a long heal. And risky with infections etc...

I am kinda hoping my vet may have a positive suggestion of trimming and shaping enough to keep him from harm.  He may have a idea we didnt think of while there and seeing it.  

But I guess I will wait and see what the vet thinks tommorrow and hope for the best for Elias.  He is a beautiful buck..I just want the best for him. 

I'll let you know what happens...Thanks for your help!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

Just thinking...winters here and hes been spending alot of time in the barn...maybe the winter is the oportunity to try the band since he wont be hanging outside much. Especially around here..cuz we only plow a bit of their yard????  They dont hang in the snow to long when they have a barn full of hay and its dry!!   A thought anyway???   Well see what happens.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 9, 2010)

This is Elias @ 4 months. See the right..your left if your looking from the front!! LOL..just kidding.  See the scur/horn Im talking about.  He is now 6 months.


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## ChksontheRun (Nov 10, 2010)

I wonder if the vet could trim it down to a reasonable size that would not so likely get knocked around,   THEN band  the smaller nub over the winter when it would not be so likely to be knocked off.  There must be a more humane option than just saw it off at the base and hope it doesn't come back.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Nov 10, 2010)

No update yet...vets office called and canceled...    Horse emg..which is understandable..

I will let you know...thanks everyone for your help!!

And it was a blessing they did..cuz we lost power tonight!  That would of been awful!


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