# Dog-Dog Aggression



## LMK17 (May 26, 2017)

We recently adopted 2 puppies to grow up as farm dogs.  They're about 11 weeks old at this point, German Shepherd mixes.  We also have a 9+ year old chow-chow mix named Sam.

Sam has a long history of aggression toward other dogs.  I imagine it's the chow in her.  She's attacked a neighbor's dog in our yard, a friend's dog in that dog's house, and also the two rescue dogs that we temporarily took in.  And now she attacked one of the puppies, Ruby, and split the bottom 1/4 of Ruby's ear in two.  We've tried on and off to better socialize Sam, trips to the dog park, and public places and such, but she was always obviously stressed in those places, and it was easy enough to keep her at home where she was the only dog.  But now we NEED farm/outside dogs and it's necessarily the end of our one-dog days.  

Mostly, Sam seems to be guarding "resources," but it's hard to tell what she might consider valuable.  One of her dog fights seemed to be over the kids' sand/water table, which Sam likes to drink from.  The other fights made more sense to me-- two were over food and the other was when the other dog got too close to Sam's crate and toys.  The attack on Ruby happened over an ice cube on the deck, which I had carelessly brushed off the picnic table.

Until I figure out a better solution, Sam is muzzled and wearing a shock collar around the puppies.  (The training collar is not new.  We use it frequently when she chases the kids' cats.  The muzzle is something that we've only occasionally used.)  Even muzzled, she's been chasing and snarling at the puppies, and I have no doubt she would've sunken her teeth into them had she had the chance.  I think the muzzle is stressing her and making the aggression worse.  And the puppies are clearly stressed, too.  They cower in the corner or immediately roll over and show their bellies when she gives them the "look."   I think we're all pretty miserable right now.

I have two books on dog-dog aggression on the way.  In the meanwhile, any suggestions?  I'd really like to get this under control and go happily on our way, but at the same time, I'm not going to keep an aggressive dog.  And with her as stressed as she seems to be, I worry that she might try taking her frustration out on a person, even though she's never been aggressive toward humans before.  Help?


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## Hens and Roos (May 26, 2017)

sorry to hear this and hope others can provide you some suggestions.

@Southern by choice and others?


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## Latestarter (May 26, 2017)

Ummm the fact that the dog has already attacked multiple other animals under a variety of circumstances should provide a clue... You need to either get professional help with it or get rid of it. I'm no dog whisperer, and I sure wouldn't stand for that kind of behavior from a dog of mine. I personally wouldn't put that on anyone else either... I'd put the dog down. Sorry if that sounds harsh.


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## Baymule (May 26, 2017)

Sam needs her own separate yard. Since she can't "play nice" with other animals, she needs her own space. I have a female Great Pyrenees that does not play nice with others. Her saving grace is that she is a wonderful sheep guard and chicken guard and she kills snakes.....possums....cats.....anything and everything she deems an intruder. She finally accepted our male Great Pyrenees and the two of them are fast friends.

Sam sounds to me like a psychotic dog with serious issues. like my female GP
I would put her in her own space where she cannot cause problems. If that only makes her worse, then I would have her put down.


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## Southern by choice (May 26, 2017)

How long have you owned Sam?


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## LMK17 (May 26, 2017)

Latestarter said:


> Ummm the fact that the dog has already attacked multiple other animals under a variety of circumstances should provide a clue... You need to either get professional help with it or get rid of it. I'm no dog whisperer, and I sure wouldn't stand for that kind of behavior from a dog of mine. I personally wouldn't put that on anyone else either... I'd put the dog down. Sorry if that sounds harsh.



Might be harsh, but I agree with you.  At this point, I'm determined to either get this figured out so we can all coexist peacefully, or I will take Sam myself and have her put down.  I really don't want it to come to that, of course, but I don't see any other reasonable options.  Certainly, I wouldn't try and adopt her out unless the folks knew EXACTLY what they were getting into, but it's moot regardless.  Sam is so easily stressed out that I truly think it would be kinder to euthanize her than try and force her to acclimate to a new home.



Baymule said:


> Sam sounds to me like a psychotic dog with serious issues. like my female GP
> I would put her in her own space where she cannot cause problems. If that only makes her worse, then I would have her put down.



Yes, she's pretty much a nutso dog.  Her saving grace is that she's always been wonderful with the kids, gentle with them and protective.  She's also an excellent watch dog and is intimidating enough that strangers on the doorstep think twice before moving closer.  BUT she has the aggression issue; she freaks over moderately loud noises (think bubble wrap popping); she gets extremely stressed in new situations (not eating for days, uncontrollable diarrhea); she pees all.over.the.house when it thunders; she once got so upset by a simple at-home nail trim that she dislocated her hip in a wild attempt to get away; and she has broken multiple of her teeth by trying to chew her way out of her crate and (after I decided to stop crating her) on the doorknob of a room she was confined in; she also neurotically fixates on things such as shadows and reflections of light; if there's an open door, she darts out and runs away from the house as fast as she can, in no particular direction...  She's a basketcase.

I like the idea of giving her a space of her own.  Actually, I was hoping that the puppies wouldn't be an issue for her, partly because they're outside dogs and she gets run of the house.  No dice, although they have spent a few days all playing in the yard together with no real issues.  (Sam did appear a bit stressed by the pups, but she also seemed to enjoy herself at times, so I just kept an eye and let them be.)  Ideally, the puppies would be outside, and Sam would be inside and/or muzzled whenever she goes out.  However, that will be logistically challenging since a dog could easily sneak past someone (one of the kids, a houseguest) and get either outside or inside when they're not supposed to be.  So Sam would maybe even need to be muzzled indoors?!?  Potentially a well placed baby gate would help, although it wouldn't address the issue of Sam's aggression, so I would probably consider that a stopgap until we figured out something else.



Southern by choice said:


> How long have you owned Sam?



9 years.  We adopted her as a 5 month old puppy.  Her first dog fight was when she was about 18 mo old.  The last one (other than Ruby) was about 5 years ago.  I was hoping that she would get along with the puppies because they're so young.  I had also been hoping she had mellowed a bit as she aged.  For the record, she was spayed young by the shelter.  And her dogfights have been with dogs of both sexes and of varying ages and sizes.

For now, I'm going back to basic obedience with her.  In addition to the muzzle/collar, Sam is either tethered to me or to an immovable object with me nearby.  (Unless the puppies are in their crate, such as overnight or when I'm away from the house.  Then Sam has run of the house.)  I took away her toys and picked up her food ball and only give them to her on my terms and when she's doing what I ask.  I've been making her sit/stay before going outside, coming inside, or getting food/treats/toys.  I've also been trying to offer all the dogs treats at the same time, on opposite sides of a tall baby gate.


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## dejavoodoo114 (May 27, 2017)

Can you fence in a backyard for her? As the puppies grow you said they are going to be general farm dogs. That way Sam would have her own space and be allowed in the house when the farm dogs are outside of the house.


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## LMK17 (May 27, 2017)

Yes, we can totally give her a yard of her own.  However, we could not necessarily make it contiguous with the house, so she would need to be walked from the house to her yard, and there would still be issues with the dogs "mingling" around the doors of the house and on the way to and from her yard.


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## LMK17 (May 30, 2017)

Boo.  Feel like I'm really going to strike out on this one.  

I contacted a chow chow rescue out of Houston (that was the nearest one I could find) to ask for suggestions for trainers or just general advice.  They replied quickly, but only to say, "Sorry.  We're not trainers, and we don't know anyone in San Antonio."  Ugh, really?  In my experience, rescues tend to communicate with one another and they're happy to help with training suggestions--potentially fewer animals coming into their rescue organizations if the owners can get a handle on problems.  And Houston is not far away.  I feel like they ought to know *someone* around here.  But it is what it is.

Next, I started reading through a book on handling problems in multi-dog households.  Page 56:  "If dog-on-dog fighting has resulted in separate instances requiring veterinary care...  It is next to impossible to teach dog-dog bite inhibition to adult dogs..."  

Next, I'm going to try emailing a trainer here in town and give her the background, just to see if she thinks Sam is at all amenable to training.  I'm not confident, though...

I feel like I can't keep Sam separate from the other animals at.all.times.  We've got 3 dogs and 2 cats.  Sam can't behave herself with any of them.  So I bring the puppies inside when Sam is outside (unless she's muzzled and I'm right there).  Then when the puppies are outside, Sam comes inside BUT then I have to rotate Sam and the cats.  Either Sam is tethered or the cats are in their kitty condo.  It's enough to make me scream; I feel like all I'm doing all day is moving animals around.  When Sam was muzzled the other day, I let her off leash to see if she had mellowed at all with the cats.  She chased one of them into a corner, snarling and attempting to bite through the muzzle, and I had to pull her off.  

DH is at his wits end.  He says he'll "handle" Sam himself if she causes any more problems.  I can't really blame him.

As for Ruby, she's got a vet appointment in the morning.  Her ear could have used vet care, but the bleeding stopped quickly, and she was already on antibiotics, so we've been trying home care.  We tried gluing it, but that lasted all of 24 hours before it opened up again.  And we've been keeping her mostly indoors because she's been getting all sorts of debris stuck in it outside.  She's not happy to be cooped up inside, and her sister doesn't want to play outside without Ruby.  :/  Anyway, the ear isn't as healed at this point as I'd like it to be, so going to have the vet take a look tomorrow.  Hopefully he'll opt to just leave it.  Ruby's not going to care a bit if it heals in two pieces or comes together crookedly, and I really hope we don't need to deal with sedating her, closing the wound, keeping her from messing up the sutures, $$$, etc, etc...


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## BrendaMNgri (May 30, 2017)

I always promote getting to the cause root of the problem instead of using harsh, constricting measures that will only provide a temporary "fix" and psychologically and emotionally damage a dog.

Muzzling a dog, constricting them with the use of a shock collar, crating - all extreme, harsh methods that did indeed, contribute to making your dog into what she has become.
It may be too late at this point to do anything but in the future please consider trying to understand your dog more deeply.  Here is an article I wrote for Sheep! Magazine back in 2013.

Causes of Conflicts Between LGDs


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## LMK17 (May 30, 2017)

I hear you!

Please don't think that I've been using nothing other than harsh methods to control Sam.  Quite the opposite, actually.  We've reached the point of "last ditch" here, but prior to that, I used very gentle methods and did attempt to a great degree to understand Sam and to manipulate the environment to set her up for success.  As a puppy, we did socialize her, both in "puppy kindergarten" and just through trips to the pet store and such.  Sometimes that went well, but she got stressed, even then, around crowds of people and dogs.  Her first fight occurred when the neighbor visited our yard with his dog.  I figured, "OK.  She's territorial.  We'll just meet other dogs other places."  I tried dog parks.  She never fought there, but she also didn't seem to enjoy it.  She stood off to the side and didn't play with other dogs much.  Her next fight occurred at my friends' house while they were pet sitting, so I started paying someone to come to my house so that Sam would be more comfortable.  I realized she guarded her things, so if we did have another dog around, I made sure to pick up ALL toys, treats, and bowls.  Similarly, with loud noises, thunder, and stress in the crate, I've used the Thundershirt, calming essential oils, DAP collars, Rescue Remedy, white noise, letting her crawl/hide under my bed.  When she NEEDED to be temporarily crated and broke her teeth chewing the crate when I was away from the house, I switched to closing her in the utility room, until she chewed the door knob so hard she broke her teeth again.  (And I did try to crate train her when she was a puppy.  To this day, she accepts the crate sometimes but not others.)  To protect her teeth was the original reason I bought the muzzle-- I realized it wasn't the "nicest" thing to do for her, but it kept her teeth safe.  (And this was only AFTER she needed 2 teeth extracted + has several others that are broken, though not badly enough that they need to come out.)  I only began using the muzzle for aggression control within about the last 6 months, when it became apparent that she wasn't getting along with the cats despite my following all the advice laid out in the dog training books for 6+ months.  Ditto for the shock collar.  I only began using it a few months ago, ONLY for dangerous aggression (chasing the cats or puppies), and on the lowest setting that she responds to.

I'm the first to admit that I'm no professional trainer, and I'm SURE I've made mistakes with Sam, but she's not my first dog.  She is the most complicated, though.


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## LMK17 (May 30, 2017)

BrendaMNgri said:


> Muzzling a dog, constricting them with the use of a shock collar, crating - all extreme, harsh methods that did indeed, contribute to making your dog into what she has become.



I couldn't disagree more.  She has a 9+ year history of aggression.  Actually, before she came to us, the shelter temporarily quarantined her due to aggression.  However, they subsequently temperament tested her and decided she could go back out for adoption.  (I adopted her regardless; it was hard to take the aggression concerns seriously when she was a 15 lb ball of fluff and I was sure proper socialization would fix any problem that might be present.  Besides, the shelter deemed her adoptable, so I thought the issue had been a one-off.)   She only has a 1 year history of muzzling.  A 6 month history of the training collar.  Yes, she has been crated on and off her whole life, but since she never really "took" to the crate, its use has been minimal.  I probably messed up here and there with her, but I am 100% confident that I did not "make" her into an aggressive dog.


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## babsbag (May 31, 2017)

From reading your posts it sure seems like you have done the best that you could do with a difficult dog. Any decision you make regarding her future will certainly not be because you haven't tried and I know that it won't be easy to let her go if that is the outcome.


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## BrendaMNgri (Jun 1, 2017)

_*"She only has a 1 year history of muzzling. A 6 month history of the training collar. Yes, she has been crated on and off her whole life, but since she never really "took" to the crate, its use has been minimal. I probably messed up here and there with her, but I am 100% confident that I did not "make" her into an aggressive dog."*_

"Only 1 year?  6 months in a shock collar?" 

You know you come in here asking for help, and then go on the defense when someone points out the obvious, which you only repeat, above, as to why your dog is what he is now, and why.  

  Someone pass the butter, please….

Here is a book that would help you tremendously in trying to have a deeper understanding about your dog, or any dog.  It's cheap to buy, and easy to read.  I insist all my customers buy it.  They learn from it and it has helped them out in so many ways.  It could help you too, and many on this forum, but you have to be receptive to help and open to a new way of approaching your issues.

Calming Signals

I recommend buying and reading all of her books. Her incredible book on Barking is on sale now for only $5.95.  Again, there is not a person on this forum with LGDs who could not benefit from reading her books.


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## LMK17 (Jun 1, 2017)

I'm not going on the defensive.  I am pointing out the facts as to why your contention that I "made" Sam into an aggressive dog through the use of punitive measures is simply untrue.  If she starting displaying aggressive tendencies 9 years ago, and the first "harsh" thing I did was to occasionally muzzle her beginning 1 year ago, it is not possible that my harsh methods made her aggressive.


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## lcertuche (Jun 1, 2017)

My brother had two chows as pups and nothing, nobody, absolutely nothing could come into his yard unless DB escorted you in. I could never trust a dog like that. I did have a dog (chow/shepherd mix) that was very protective of me. All the neighborhood kids could come and play with her, on here, or around her no problem but anyone (especially male) could not come close to me unless I let them in and then she watched them very carefully. My ex was military and gone quite a bit so I loved having her watch over us. I traveled with her and loved her very much. When I moved I was going where they didn't allow LGD's so I gave her to a couple of wives and children of soldiers that shared a large house. She went happily with them and they were happy to have her.

 I once had a dog like yours though and I could never trust him. He was psycho. He once tried to attack my toddler niece. He had been fine all week long she was visiting but I just happen to glance down and saw his eyes turning red. I threw my hand in front of her when he lunged. He teeth went through my hand and locked. It took a neighbor to get the baby out of sight and another 20 minutes before he calmed enough to let loose of my hand. This dog was a Catahoula.


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## LMK17 (Jun 1, 2017)

Goodness, how scary about your niece!  Thank goodness she wasn't hurt, but I'm sorry you weren't so lucky.  Interesting that he seemed OK with her all week.  Sam is like that, too.  She's perfectly lovely with people-- especially people she knows-- but she can spend hours or days with another dog seemingly with no problems, and then she'll attack with very little warning.  There's no snarling, no growling.  She may or may not stand a bit stiffly and/or look away-- fairly subtle stuff as far as I can tell.  Then she lunges and attacks.  It happens so quickly!

As for Ruby, the vet says she'll be fine with continued home care.  Actually, he said that he avoids suturing ears since they bleed so easily and are often re-injured, anyway.  He prefers keeping them clean, avoiding infection, and letting them heal on their own.

I heard back from the dog trainer I contacted.  She said Sam's history, age, and various other factors make her an unsuitable candidate for rehabilitation, and she won't take the case.  Not the answer I was hoping for, but it is what I was expecting.  The trainer suggests either continued supervision/muzzling/isolation from other animals, rehoming with a full disclosure to an experienced new owner, or euthanasia.  No big surprises there.  I really need to think hard about what to do next.  I really do love Sam, problems and all, but she can be dangerous and unpredictable.  And really, what are the chances that anyone else is going to want a pet-aggressive, 9 year old dog?


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## Southern by choice (Jun 1, 2017)

Everything you mention is very typical of Chow Chows. Eons ago I worked with some awesome Chow Chows. It was a show line and very well bred but CHOW are CHOWS.
Geesh they are really amazing dogs but stubborn and keen and the fastest cat killers I have ever seen.
I would discontinue the muzzle unless when you have to take her in public and you risk her biting another then used it if you must.
Seen far too many in vet offices or other public places and  owners think they have good control, they know the dog is aggressive and yet they do nothing. Very terrible thing to witness a snap shake and a dead animal which could have been avoided.

She is 9 years old... IMO at this late stage in the game put up a fence in the backyard.
Yes, you may have to juggle her outside when the others come in. This is not a big deal.  Net one out let others in... it's not a big deal.

Given the history and work you had put in perhaps it would have been better to not have gotten the other dogs until other arrangements were made. Too late for that now.
I also believe there is a level of loyalty. She has been with you for 9 years. Farm dogs can be on the farm, she is your pet. Farmdogs do not need to be in the house or in her areas.

IMO this is rather simple solution to somewhat of a temporary problem. I mean temporary because you have an aged dog. She may live to 13... so what... you can work with her in the meantime but at least all others will be secure.


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## LMK17 (Jun 1, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> Everything you mention is very typical of Chow Chows. Eons ago I worked with some awesome Chow Chows. It was a show line and very well bred but CHOW are CHOWS.
> Geesh they are really amazing dogs but stubborn and keen and the fastest cat killers I have ever seen...
> 
> She is 9 years old... IMO at this late stage in the game put up a fence in the backyard.
> ...



I knew a little about chows when we adopted her, but not as much as I know now.  Also, I was hoping that her dominant personality traits would come from whatever it is she's mixed with.  

I totally agree about giving her her own fenced area.  I just wish I could figure out a way to make it contiguous with the house.  She has a habit of darting out the door past the kids.  (My youngest is 4.)  I just worry about her darting outside when the other dogs are nearby.  Also, the puppies are still in training and like to try and run into the house.  It REALLY raises Sam's hackles when one of the pups gets indoors.  So I do feel like the muzzle is necessary at this point, since I can't guarantee the dogs aren't going to mingle.  Also, we haven't moved to the farm yet.  I think the logistics will potentially be easier once we move.

I would have waited for other dogs except that we NEED farm dogs ASAP.  The farm is coming with livestock-- chickens, goats, and cattle.  I think we need outside dogs to help keep the small stock safe.  We kept Sam as a single dog nearly all her life, but things change, and circumstances really seemed to dictate that we needed additional dogs now.  Not ideal but also not avoidable unless we put our "farm plans" on hold until Sam lived out her natural life, ya know?


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## lcertuche (Jun 1, 2017)

Some people would probably like that in a dog. My ex refused to put our dog down but after that I kept him on a heavy chain because he wanted a dog like that. I still would pet him because once he calmed down he realize it was me in his mouth and seemed repentant (if dogs can be that way). I never trusted him again and anytime children were at our house I told their parents to keep them in the house. It made me nervous knowing he could break his chain and maybe kill something or someone.


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## babsbag (Jun 1, 2017)

Didn't you mention cats too? Or did I dream that?  Keeping cats out of her fenced yard may prove to be a big problem if they are outdoor cats.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 1, 2017)

When are you moving?  
I am sure I missed a bit... why can't the fencing connect to the house?

Yes, circumstances in life do change. 

I would focus on working with pups behavior about darting in. The muzzle for some animals actually creates more aggression, because it is creating a form of anxiety. 
Not all dogs of course. 
It is customary to sometimes work with Schutzhund dogs, that were poorly trained, with muzzles and they never have a problem. 
Not all breeds are the same.


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## LMK17 (Jun 1, 2017)

babsbag said:


> Didn't you mention cats too? Or did I dream that?  Keeping cats out of her fenced yard may prove to be a big problem if they are outdoor cats.



Yes, I did mention cats.  My kiddos each adopted a kitten last year.  I have no doubt Sam would kill them if given the chance.    They're full grown now, and nothing that I've tried has gotten Sam to the point of accepting them.  Her prey drive is just too high.  As with other dogs, she sometimes seems OK with them, but other times she goes nuts around them.  The current cats are indoor cats, and when Sam is inside, they go into their kitty condo/cage.  At night, Sam and the cats get run of different parts of the house.



Southern by choice said:


> When are you moving?
> I am sure I missed a bit... why can't the fencing connect to the house?
> 
> Yes, circumstances in life do change.
> ...



Sorry, I'll bet I forgot a few pertinent details.  We currently live in the suburbs.  1/10 acre lot, HOA, all that.  Our many years-long goal has been to move to the county and run a little hobby farm, but DH's job situation wasn't stable enough that we felt comfortable moving and trying to put down roots, so we've been chilling in our little "starter home" for nearly a decade.  But now the opportunity has come for us to move.  We're buying a 20 acre farm + house, and the owners, who are downsizing, are leaving some of the livestock for us.  We're supposed to close in mid-June, but we're running into some issues that may delay closing.  So we'll be moving... probably some time in June.  Maybe July?  In the meanwhile, I thought it was reasonable to start growing up some farm dogs.  Since young puppies aren't all that useful on a farm, especially without an older dog mentor, I wanted to get a month or so head start with training them and getting them grown a bit.

As far as a yard for Sam connecting to the house, the layout at the new place is a little weird for that.  The current owners' farm dogs have beds set up in the attached garage, and they put a dog door in the garage door and also in the door on a shed near the house.  I figure the puppies/farm dogs can have beds and food in one of these two places, too.  However, both of the dog-door accessible areas are right off the back of the house, so I'm not sure how to construct a yard that allows the farm dogs access to shelter and also allows Sam to go straight from the house to her private yard.

It's hard to tell exactly what Sam thinks of the muzzle.  It's a basket-type that allows her to eat, drink, pant, and bark while wearing it-- the most dog-friendly design I could find.  She does run, bark, eat/drink, and all that while wearing the muzzle, so she's not super stressed.  Still, she won't lie down comfortably.  I think the muzzle rides up a bit over her eyes, so she lies in awkward looking positions while wearing it.  

I agree I should work with the puppies on not running into the house.  For the time being, they are crated in the utility room overnight, so they do come inside a bit.  But at least I could start with training them to sit at the door and not come in until invited.  Once on the farm, they'll hardly ever be in the house, so that should be easier.


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## babsbag (Jun 1, 2017)

My Border Collies are ok with my cats that they know but I don't trust them around kittens at all.  They have killed a cat that came into their yard, granted it wasn't mine but it still upset me. I only have one outdoor kitty and I honestly don't know what the dogs would do if she was in their yard, they are ok with her in the house but their "justice" can be quick and decisive. I saw what they did to a squirrel and it wasn't pretty. I don't know how you juggle all of this, kudos to you; I don't think I could do it.


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## lcertuche (Jun 2, 2017)

That's a lot of juggling to manage.


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## Simpleterrier (Jun 3, 2017)

Just a thought isn't there something with a chows brain swelling to big


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## TAH (Jun 3, 2017)

I have a short attention span and have to really focus to read thru long stuff so sorry if I missed this already... I would also suffer from a terrible headache later. 

How were they introduced to each other? 

We had friends living with us and they bought a unfixed yellow lab and our dog could not handle him... They had a few pretty nasty fights but it was my fault on how I introduced them... I started with training them together on opposite side of the fence then they would work together but I kept there attention on me... Before to long they were playing fetch together.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 3, 2017)

I am posting this so that others that may be browsing might be helped.
In no way is this accusatory so please don't take it that way. 

The "farm dogs" should not have been retained until on the farm.
Farm dogs need to be raised daily with the events of farm life from the start. 
Being in a small yard in a non farm environment can, not saying this is permanent, but can set them up for failure.
At this time they are just two more pets not being raised in the environment that you wish them to eventually be in. Because they are not true working dogs they are learning to just be pets.

I strongly encourage others to wait til you are on your farm before adding in what you want to be as future farm dogs.


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## LMK17 (Jun 3, 2017)

babsbag said:


> ...I don't know how you juggle all of this, kudos to you; I don't think I could do it.





lcertuche said:


> That's a lot of juggling to manage.



Yes, it's tough!  I'm not even sure it's a good idea; I'm getting pretty stressed over the whole thing, and we have had some close calls where one animal or the other wasn't in the "right" place at a given time, and they had some contact with one another.



Simpleterrier said:


> Just a thought isn't there something with a chows brain swelling to big



I'm sorry.  I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to.  However, I really don't think Sam has a medical condition since her aggression is not new.  This has been a life-long personality trait for her, but she's been quite healthy for many years.



TAH said:


> How were they introduced to each other?



In the case of the puppies, the puppies and Sam were kept apart with a baby gate for about 2-3 weeks.  They could sniff each other but not have physical contact otherwise.  After that time, they were allowed short play periods (< 5 min at first) in the yard.  We started with Sam + 1 puppy at a time.  Once things seemed to be going well, they were all allowed in the yard together for short periods of time, then longer.  They were never left alone; I was always close by supervising.  Because Sam resource guards, I did not allow them to have any toys, treats, or food/water bowls when they were together.  I slowly increased the time they were allowed to be together with supervision.  The attack on Ruby occurred about 1 week after their first supervised contact.  That day, they had played well for quite a long time before the attack, maybe about 1 hour or so.  Since then, they have had very limited contact with one another, and Sam is muzzled when they might come into contact with one another.



Southern by choice said:


> I am posting this so that others that may be browsing might be helped.
> In no way is this accusatory so please don't take it that way.
> 
> The "farm dogs" should not have been retained until on the farm.
> ...



I appreciate your thoughts.  Thanks.  And I am honestly not trying to be argumentative, but I do have some comments and questions for you.

Our first day on the farm is planned for June 16.  This could change, but closing is still scheduled for that day.  On the 16th, the puppies will be about 14 weeks old.  Based on everything I've seen, 14 weeks is beyond the first critical socialization period, which ends around 12 weeks, but they should still be quite amenable to new experiences.  So my plan was expose the puppies to many stimuli that they'll encounter whether on the farm or other places-- kids running and playing; startling noises; cats; various kinds of weather; humans outside the family; baths/getting wet-- Things they can experience now and then generalize to farm life later.  Also, I've taken them to visit the farm twice.  They've gotten to see the chickens and goats, the current owners' dogs, tall grass, "farm" smells...   And I'm working on cues such as "take it/leave it" that should be useful in getting them not to harass the small livestock...  I think the main difference between farm life and their current life is that they will sleep outside of the house.  Even then, though, I don't think it's going to be a huge change for them.  Currently, they sleep in a crate in the downstairs utility room.  They don't get run of the house.  They are outside as much as possible during the day, then they come inside and go straight to the utility room for bed or when we're away from the house.  They eat and nap outside.  Once on the farm, I plan to put their crate in the garage.  There's a dog door on the garage, and once they learn to use it, I really don't think their experience is going to be all that different from how it is now, except that they'll control their own access to their crate/bed/shelter.  I image that at some point, they'll just choose to sleep outside, especially in the heat of the summer, but I think they'll be somewhat alert to things going on overnight even if they are in the garage.  Even if we were on the farm now, I still think I'd lock them in the crate them overnight since they're quite small.

It seems to me that, although my plan might not be perfect, it's a solid one.  Their lives aren't all that different from how they'll be on the farm.  I will need to carefully introduce them to the livestock and make sure they know not to mess with the farm animals, but I think they should be young enough that they'll take to that training easily.  Or am I missing something?  Looked at another way, is there a huge difference between a "farm dog" and a "pet dog who lives on a farm?"  I realize that these puppies are not LGD, and I don't expect them to be.  My main goals for them are that they assist with keeping intruders (could be predators or strange people) off the property and they don't harass the livestock.  Honestly, most pet dogs I've had could likely have done those jobs.  Most dogs, in my experience, are territorial enough that they bark at strangers in the yard, run off raccoons, and that sort of thing.  Sam, for example, is an excellent watch dog.  I'm not looking for much more than that out of these pups.

If I'm understanding your point of view, you're suggesting that farm dogs need to be on the farm their entire lives.  Is that correct?  If so, would you say that any dog from "pet" stock (i.e. parents are not farm dogs) would be unsuitable-- or at least severely handicapped-- as a farm dog?  If so, could you please explain why?  I absolutely can understand why that would be the case for a LGD, but those are in a different league that all-around farm dogs, right?  Again, I'm not arguing; just trying to clarify and understand.


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