# Banding Horns



## Susyr22 (Oct 6, 2011)

I recently purchased a 7 month old dairy doe with horns. I have banded them with castrator bands and wrapped electrical tape around the bands to keep them in place. its been about a week. I checked them out today and I hardly see any difference. Looks like the bands barely made a mark. So I replaced the bands with fresh ones. How long does this usually take? Someone told me two weeks, but I can't see it working in that short amount of time. The reason I am banding her is because she is agressive and likes to use her horns on my other doe's. I'm afraid of her damaging my milk goats udders


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## helmstead (Oct 6, 2011)

It takes 30 days to several months.  Replace the bands every 30 days.  There's a whole article on this on my husband's website (link in my signature).


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 7, 2011)

Pleas let us know how it progresses, I'm interested but nervous of doing my goats, all 4 have horns. We are going into fly season here so I won't be looking at doing mine for 6 months or so.


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## DKRabbitry (Oct 7, 2011)

> I'm interested but nervous of doing my goats


Ditto here.  I have some very nice lamanchas that look beautiful with their horns, BUT I know eventually I may have issues with one of them, sooooo... I know the option is there, I am just worried it will hurt them.  I am also kind of nervous about learning to disbud kids come spring :/  

That is a nice article helmstead.  Do you have any photos of what it looks like when they get closer to falling off and after they have fallen off?


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 7, 2011)

Ditto on the disbudding here. I don't have the tools to do it so I'm hoping the lady I know with goats will be kind enough to show me how it's done. Read: I desperately hope she'll do them for me this round. 

I'm also curious how long it takes them to grow enough horn back to be a nuisance after banding.


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## helmstead (Oct 7, 2011)

RareBreedFancier said:
			
		

> Ditto on the disbudding here. I don't have the tools to do it so I'm hoping the lady I know with goats will be kind enough to show me how it's done. Read: I desperately hope she'll do them for me this round.
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> I'm also curious how long it takes them to grow enough horn back to be a nuisance after banding.


They don't ever grow back to be a nuisance.  They might be up to an inch long little nubs if you don't get the bands low enough, but nothing that's an issue.  We've dehorned about 30 goats to date using this method.


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 7, 2011)

Oh cool, thank you!  I assumed over time they'd grow a lot more than that. Looks like my goats might have a date with the bander in about 6 months.


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## Susyr22 (Oct 7, 2011)

Awesome, Thanks! Ive seen some pics online here is a couple of links. 


http://www.goatworld.com/articles/disbudding/dehorning.shtml


http://www.littlecudchewers.com/Dehorning Older Goats.htm


I think I might try double banding to see it that helps. Always nice to get different opinions, as I get different answers online on how long it will take. My doe doesn't seem to be in any discomfort at all like they say they will be when you first put the bands on. Maybe its because she is young and her horns aren't super hard yet/. I dunno 
Good Luck to you all.


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## Chaty (Oct 7, 2011)

I have banded a few horns and be aware that if she butts something when they get to working thru the horn it can and will break and bleed...ALOT! White goats with bloody horn looks like a big mess. Some dont bleed but some do. I have used this before on goats I have aquired as I dont have horns. I disbud mine as its easier to do it this way for a few seconds than deal with a grown goat that has been hurt from a horn fighting or killed stuck in a fence. If the horn grows back it usually dont get very long and is very weak and sometmes breaks off easily. Good luck and shave the area around the horn base before you put the band on as it pulls really bad when dont without shaving the hair off. It can take months for it to work or just a week or 2, very unpredictable when they fall off. I dont remove the bands once they are on as it really hurts even if it looks like it isnt working.


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 7, 2011)

We banded our two babies... I would rather have  disbuded them since it is quicker. But we still don't have a disbudding iron.  I can try and get some pics of ours. One has lost one horn, but I don't know how "normal" it is. It sort of "degloved"..   The horn came off, leaving something there. 

 I need to talk the DH into an iron, before the doe I think will be kidding in Nov or Dec has her kid or kids!


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## ksalvagno (Oct 7, 2011)

I just banded my alpine, Millie. We followed Kate's method. Since we never did it before, we didn't get through the first layer all the way around on the first horn but did on the second horn. So we are expecting the first horn to take longer than the second horn. Also didn't need to use duct tape. The grooves are deep enough that the bands are staying in place on both horns. I think you can faintly see the green down by the end of Millie's horns.


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 7, 2011)

first two pics taken a day or two after banding...










others taken today, now this is odd, he wasn't missing that chunk last night??























You can see the degloved horn, it left the inner, so likely am going to have to reband it...


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## helmstead (Oct 7, 2011)

BWL - you placed the bands way too high because you didn't shave back the hair to find the true hairline.  Those will come off, but leave tall scurs...just like the one that already broke.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 7, 2011)

We ended up using OB wire instead of a file. It was just taking too long to try and get the groove with the file. If you use OB wire, you do have to be careful that you don't go too deep and it does get hot.


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## helmstead (Oct 7, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> We ended up using OB wire instead of a file. It was just taking too long to try and get the groove with the file. If you use OB wire, you do have to be careful that you don't go too deep and it does get hot.


Whatever works for you   It's just very helpful on adult goats to A)give the bands 'grip' and B)give the bands a little head start through the tough outer shell.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 7, 2011)

It was just funny with my vet over here. I was filing and filing for a good 5 minutes and barely scratched the surface of one small area. I joked that she was going to be here all day helping me and that was when she thought of the OB wire. Probably if DH was there using the file, it probably wouldn't have taken so long. Of course, I had never used a file before so probably part of the problem was "operator error."


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 7, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> BWL - you placed the bands way too high because you didn't shave back the hair to find the true hairline.  Those will come off, but leave tall scurs...just like the one that already broke.


I figured that we did, but, its a learning process,  esp when we are kind on our own....( no IRL help) we will reband I am sure, but, not going to sweat scurs on these guys, since we wethered them...
 I have found some people band below the hairline, and some above...and I pushed as close as I had seen the ones above the hairline, I will reband right on the hairline...


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## helmstead (Oct 7, 2011)

Just mentioned it because banding is not something I would want to put a goat through_ twice_, so for those looking - please be sure to shave the hair back and place the 1st (upper) band AT the hairline and then roll a 2nd (lower) band BELOW that one, on the skin.

Good luck!


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## manybirds (Oct 7, 2011)

Susyr22 said:
			
		

> I recently purchased a 7 month old dairy doe with horns. I have banded them with castrator bands and wrapped electrical tape around the bands to keep them in place. its been about a week. I checked them out today and I hardly see any difference. Looks like the bands barely made a mark. So I replaced the bands with fresh ones. How long does this usually take? Someone told me two weeks, but I can't see it working in that short amount of time. The reason I am banding her is because she is agressive and likes to use her horns on my other doe's. I'm afraid of her damaging my milk goats udders


did you file down the first layer of horn BEFORE you banded them? this is cruical in the process. take a metal rounded file and get as close to the head as you can and file away. once the first layer of the horn is gone put one band in the groove and another band rite above it. hope it helped!


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 7, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Just mentioned it because banding is not something I would want to put a goat through_ twice_, so for those looking - please be sure to shave the hair back and place the 1st (upper) band AT the hairline and then roll a 2nd (lower) band BELOW that one, on the skin.
> 
> Good luck!


I don't think its much to nice to have to burn, or band twice...but honestly, I am finding I prefer to band them off. I have checked out a lot of video's of the burning, (including off your spouse's site) and it makes me a bit sick feeling. I feel I can always get vet help for the banding if issues arrive, but a vet won't be much good for a seared brain. 

 Scurs I can deal with, our buck gets them, and he was burned, twice before we had picked him up.  I will deal with his scurs again this weekend, when I clean up his legs and coat them with some corona ointment to deal with his urine scald..


 And, just for the know how, Your spouse's site is the one we chose to emulate the banding from, but, obviously could not tell that either of the bands were on or below the hairline. Both myself and my spouse thought them at and slightly above hairline.... maybe someone can add arrows and labeling to the photo's???


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## DKRabbitry (Oct 7, 2011)

Very interesting.  Thank you for the photos.  That doesn't look unbearably painful at all like I imagined.  I know it can bleed a lot, I have a cream lamancha doe with scurs.  She knocks them off every so often and comes up looking like someone poured a cup of blood down her face.  I am going to have to give it a try... have to go over it with DH again.


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## helmstead (Oct 7, 2011)

BlackWatchLady said:
			
		

> And, just for the know how, Your spouse's site is the one we chose to emulate the banding from, but, obviously could not tell that either of the bands were on or below the hairline. Both myself and my spouse thought them at and slightly above hairline.... maybe someone can add arrows and labeling to the photo's???


I had to go look.  In fact, Helen's skin and her horn are about the same color, and he didn't go through all the instructions like I did on a private forum that I direct people to...I will ask him about amending all that.  Thank you for the feedback!


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 7, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

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 Not a problem,


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## elevan (Oct 7, 2011)

This would make a great Educational Page  - if someone wants to volunteer to build one


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## Goatmasta (Oct 7, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> This would make a great Educational Page  - if someone wants to volunteer to build one


I already did it is on my website.


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## elevan (Oct 7, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

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I am very aware of that.  I'm talking about someone volunteering to build an educational page to THIS website, so that we're not referring members to _other_ websites.

Would you like to volunteer?  Since it's your own content all you'd have to do is a copy and paste into a "My Page" format.


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 7, 2011)

*Susyr22* Thanks, for those links, I hadn't seen the second one and both are interesting.

*helmstead* I also thought from the pic on your site the bands where above the hairline, even thought the instructions say to get as close to the skin as possible. That's one of the reasons I assumed they'd grow back because the base was still there. 

*BlackWatchLady* I'm thinking I prefer the banding too if it's permanent. The only person I know has a disbudding iron also has scurs on most of her youngstock so I am less than thrilled with the idea of getting her to disbud my kids only to end up with scurs.

All in all I think I'll be tying this out after fly season here. I do wonder if I can get the buck done but after this mornings feeding where he slammed the poor wether so hard he drove the wethers horns into my leg I'm thinking a horn free herd would be safer for me, them and the other critters here. Banding my kids will also be very handy when I do a doeling swap with the breeder of my goats, he likes horns on so I'll leave my kids as they are and band the new doelings I get.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2011)

Here is what Millie looks like up close. We did not get the grooves right at the skin level. It is slightly above skin. Honestly, I hope to never band another goat again. Banding horns on an adult is a pain. Even with me holding her horns, standing over/on top of her and in the milking stand, I did have problems controlling her. I think the Orajel makes a huge difference and it helped when we weren't right against her skin. Disbudding is much easier and when you learn how to do it right, there aren't any scurs.


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 8, 2011)

Orajel?


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2011)

Yes, any of the gum numbing gels for people's teeth. Just smear it around the horn on the skin and it will numb the area.


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 8, 2011)

BlackWatchLady said:
			
		

> I don't think its much to nice to have to burn, or band twice...but honestly, I am finding I prefer to band them off.


You may prefer to band them but how do you think the goat would feel?  I think I would prefer a once-and-done burning (which lasts a very short time) compared to a lengthy banding process.  Seems to me (and I can't say for sure, because I'm not a goat ) that burning, even though it may seem horrible, is over pretty quickly.  Banding has got to be painful and lasts a great deal longer than burning.  Kids who get disbudded are up and playing minutes after being burned.


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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Mine were out being goat kids as soon as we were done banding. They act no diffrent now with horns banded, then they did with horns un banded. 

So that does not sway me,


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 8, 2011)

I haven't read through the entire thread, but noticed a few posting that they may have to disbud their goats at somepoint due to an aggressive one. In my opinion, it is better for the herd and various breeds, if you just send the overly aggressive ones to freezer camp. There is always going to be head butting/ramming, pot shots, and even a hook under and attempt to flip each other, they are goats, and those actions are normal for them. If it is just normal herd status rituals or bucks showing off who is better than whom, then I say don't worry about it. My 1 yr old buck will occassionally hook his head around and under one of the younger boys and either push or flip them back. It _looks_ mean and potentially hurtful, but all that is is their way of saying "STOP sniffing back there!" or "NO, that food is MINE". He has never once hurt one of the bucklings he has been housed with since they entered his Buck Barn. In fact, he is a great "daddy"/role model. He will spar with them, but is very gentle. My little over a year old doe is aggressive toward the young doelings, but mostly she will give them pot shots if they encroach on HER eating/investigative space.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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I agree.  Banding is NOT an alternative to disbudding- it's something you do when the breeder failed to disbud the kids or you've purchased a breed not typically disbudded and have a no-horns policy.


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 8, 2011)

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To each there own, goes hand in hand with banding verses burdizzo, verses cutting to wether... I am not seeing any issues in my two who are banded, verses when I bought two who had been burned.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 8, 2011)

BlackWatchLady said:
			
		

> To each there own, goes hand in hand with banding verses burdizzo, verses cutting to wether....


Does it?  I've never seen banding presented as an alternative to disbudding.


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## BlackWatchLady (Oct 8, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

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It is INDIVIDUAL Choice...


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 8, 2011)

Yes, all management is based on individual choices.  Some are good choices and some are not.  I think that's as simple as it's going to get.


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## elevan (Oct 8, 2011)

Please remember that this is an international forum.  What is acceptable in one place may be taboo in another and so on.  I'm right, you're wrong posts are against forum Rules .


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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I actually read a book recently that said banding horns is less traumatic than burning, and that for making wethers, that cutting was less traumatic than banding.... the latter seeming odd/nonsensical to me... but that is just me.
I think banding would work the same with horns as it does for making a wether... as long as one uses proper medicine to keep any potential infection away.  though


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I actually read a book recently that said banding horns is less traumatic than burning, and that for making wethers, that cutting was less traumatic than banding.... the latter seeming odd/nonsensical to me... but that is just me.
> I think banding would work the same with horns as it does for making a wether... as long as one uses proper medicine to keep any potential infection away.  though


I think that any procedure that is done quickly and over with quickly is less painful than one that is drawn out, which is why I prefer cutting when castrating, and using a docking iron when castrating tails.  Oh yeah, and disbudding over banding horns.   I mean, when I take bandaids off I prefer to pull them off quickly instead of slooooowly ripping them off.  I'm sure we've all had male animals who have been in pain for a while after a banding.  I know my buck-now-wether this year had a horrible time after I banded him.  I had to treat him with antibiotics and he lost a good deal of weight because it took so long for his scrotum to finally fall off.  I know when I band tails of sheep (because I can't afford a docking iron) it takes weeks to fall off, and there's an open wound for those weeks.  Surely that can't be comfortable.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

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Docking the tails of sheep????? how long has this been happening, and why is it happening?


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## elevan (Oct 8, 2011)

Each farm has the RIGHT to make a decision for their own farm based on a number of factors (religion, economics, opinion, and others).  Let's not make this thread a debate about whether horn banding is right or wrong because there are no easy answers.


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## RareBreedFancier (Oct 8, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Docking the tails of sheep????? how long has this been happening, and why is it happening?


Your joking, right? 

Virtually all sheep are docked unless it's someones pet and they don't do it. They get horribly dirty nasty flyblown tails if they are left on and not kept clean and tidy. Having rescued one neglected pet sheep that was tailed I can tell you it's no fun for the human and especially not for the sheep. Fat tailed sheep are the only ones that normally keep their tails.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 9, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Each farm has the RIGHT to make a decision for their own farm based on a number of factors (religion, economics, opinion, and others).  Let's not make this thread a debate about whether horn banding is right or wrong because there are no easy answers.


I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just stating my personal feelings/thoughts/what I read... It was a book in Home Depot btw, I didn't catch the author, but it was entitled "Raising Goats"... and it had a pic of a cute baby goat on the cover.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 9, 2011)

RareBreedFancier said:
			
		

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No, not joking. I don't know any sheep farmers who dock the tails. Even the sheep at our local fair were all tails intact.  I guess the sheep farmers in NH/ME are very good about/have more time for keeping their herds clean and tidy.

Well, that tells me that if I ever look into sheep, I want to get some from one of the local farms. 

*Just want to make it clear that I am in no way bashing those that dock their tails or have docked tailed animals, just stating that if they are docked for cleanliness, then it stands to reason that herds with tails intact must spend a decent amount of time & effort in keeping the sheep very clean, like OCD clean.*

ETA: make that CDO, it's like OCD only all the letters are in order, just as they should be.


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## elevan (Oct 9, 2011)

We're done here folks.  Thanks for participating.

Management practices vary from area to area.  Simply put each farm is different and each farmer must do research and decide what management style that they will take with their farm.  As long as the method is within the limits of the law of the area that the farmer is in there is no right or wrong way.


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