# Bottle babies or 2 mo old?



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 28, 2010)

The breeder I'll be getting Lucy and Ethel (probably the names...) from said I can have either bottle babies or 2 month old kids.  When visiting her herd you could tell which were the bottle babies as in her words they were "wonderfully annoying"   I really want affectionate and trusting goats as they will be milkers AND pets, however I know that they learn goat behaviors by being around other goats.  What's best for them?  Is there somewhere in between?



			
				Fias Co Farms website said:
			
		

> *  Day one- 6 oz. (per feeding) colostrum, every 4 hours.
> * Day two- 8 oz. (per feeding) colostrum/whole milk, 4 times a day
> * Day three- 10 oz. (per feeding) colostrum/whole milk, 4 times a day
> * Day four- 10-12 oz. (per feeding) colostrum/whole milk, 4 times a day.
> ...


According to this, what are the rules as far as a clock goes?  By that I mean, on day two it says 4 times a day...do you feed every 6 hours, or once in the morning, once before you put them to sleep, and twice in between?  During this time are they in the house or outside in the goat shed (mine is 3 sided) with lots of warm straw?


----------



## lupinfarm (Jan 28, 2010)

If you have the choice, I'd totally go for bottle babies  They're fantastic and fun. Both my girls are "tame" and friendly (well okay Mione is scared of life but she comes around with some nice petting and a few pieces of carrot) but I'd have definitely taken bottle babies if I could have gotten them.


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 28, 2010)

This makes me skip for joy but my hubbie will be displeased 
Inside the goat shed is a Dogloo filled with straw and the dirt floor of the shed is also layered very thick with straw, without doing anything else would this be enough to keep them warm at night outside?  I'm assuming they will cuddle together.  As far as predators go, I have a 5' tall no climb fence with a 4' tall gate with double locks...  I am so nervous/excited but I want to be sure the kids will be safe and healthy.  Does this sound okay for them if there are no adult goats there at night to protect them?


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 28, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> The breeder I'll be getting Lucy and Ethel (probably the names...) from said I can have either bottle babies or 2 month old kids.


So, am I to understand that your choices are either:

A) half wild, dam-raised weanlings, or 
B) babies, that you have to bottle-raise yourself.

Well, unless by "have" you mean _have_...as in _free_...I gotta say that if I were new to goats and these were the two options with which I'd been presented, I'd go with:

C) a different breeder.

Maybe that sounds a little harsh, but that's really how I feel.  As someone who cares for goats day in, day out, I wouldn't personally hand a _baby_ baby over to someone with no experience raising bottle goaties (even though mama goats do it all the time :/ ), nor would I simply leave them on the dam if I knew I wasn't going to be able to spend the time it takes to bond them to people.  This sounds like someone with too big a herd, or too many irons in the fire.

If I absolutely, positively had to choose between the two, though, I'd go with a bottle baby.  Reason being, two months of age is PLENTY old enough for a goat to have acquired a _lifelong, unending_ fear of humans -- trust me on this.  We have a buck you can't touch with a 10' pole, and we got him at 8wks.  He's was wild as a March hare the day we picked him up, and never improved a lick.  

On the other hand...bottle babies benefit more from mama's milk than any store-bought concoction you can come up with.  I have a good recipe for replacer using whole cow's milk, buttermilk, and evaporated milk, but it's still not as good as real goat's milk..  Plus, when they're hamming down about a gallon a day of it between the two...gets mighty spendy.

And, well...there's always the possibility that they could just up and die.  

I'm not gonna say they're made of glass or anything, because they're not..  They're actually pretty tough..  I'm just sayin'...taking over a baby isn't the easiest thing ever.  

Which, of course, is why you're being presented with the options you've got -- because she doesn't want the hassle of bottle babies.


Just my $0.02.  


BTW...that you wondered aloud about feeding before you put them to bed tells me that you've got _really_ high expectations of what raising bottle babies might be like..    My experience is that bottle babies sleep when _they_ want..  

_You_ sleep when they'll allow it.


----------



## lupinfarm (Jan 28, 2010)

Haha cm, yeah its like raising real human babies. 

Mione was terrified of us when we got her, she was around 10 months old and now she's not sooo scared but she's still a little scared. She's better than my super tame Cissy for foot trimming though! She just stands like a pro, whereas Cissy tries to kill me LOL.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jan 28, 2010)

I think dam raised is fine if the goats are being handled. I also think it makes a difference on how much time you have to spend with them. If you can sit in their area and spend a lot of time, then I think they would come around. Four of my goats I got at about 8 weeks and they were dam raised. All are very friendly. But time was spent with them before I got them and I spent a lot of time with them.

Bottle feeding is a lot of work. Those goats have to be fed no matter what you are doing, have planned or are sick, no matter what type of weather. Just keep that in mind. Some people don't mind it, some do.

I think if you have newborn goats that you are feeding, they need to be somewhere other than a 3 sided shed. I would say for at least the first week or so. Maybe someone else can pipe in about that but even with a 3 sided shelter, they will still get some draft. i would probably even go a minimum of 2 weeks. Even if you keep them in a garage or something where there are no drafts and you can have a heat lamp going.


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 28, 2010)

Actually, as far as time, once they get the hang of it, (which could take a couple days) bottle feeding the kids takes me less time than the rest of the barn chores (milking, feeding, filling waterers and feeders for the chickens, etc.)  
2 hands, 2 bottles, they'll be done in under 4 minutes.

I *have* to be in the barn every day, to feed and milk...whether I have plans, I'm sick or don't feel like it, so honestly bottle feeding isn't a problem for me...it's my fav. part of the feeding routine here.  
I LOVE spending time w/ the kids.
I usually go to the barn to check on the preggos before I go to bed anyway, so they get their last bottle then.

I don't let our bottle babies leave until they're a week old (to experienced folks) or 2 weeks old (newbies) and they come w/ instructions and 2 gallons of goat milk, nipples, reg. applications, booster CDT shots, etc.  
By 2 weeks they're very well started, stable, pooping right, etc.

I've never fed a bottle baby more than 3-4 times in 24 hours, never more often than every 6 hrs...and that's generally dependant on when they're born.  If they're born in the morning, they *might* get an extra bottle squeezed in since I'm up anyway....if they're born at night, they get fed their colostrum....then I sleep for 6-7 hours and they eat again when I get up.  
Their routine is 8 am, 2 pm, 9 pm.

If I don't have enough goat milk, I use straight cow milk...(not 2%).

Just my .02 worth...

eta...our babies spend their first night in the spare room across the hall from ours (in a playpen).  In 7 years, not one has ever woken me in the middle of the night.  I don't know if that's luck or I just sleep hard, but once I feed them and shut the light off, they're usually pretty quiet until morning.  They'll holler a bit when they hear me moving around, but honestly...none have ever woken me up.


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 28, 2010)

Caution...LONG

Okay, eek.  In defense of my breeder I need to clear a few things up that apparently I messed up in my explanation!  I am purchasing these kids.  My choices are to either bottle raise the babies myself and can pick them up the day they are born (or soon thereafter) or dam-raised weanlings that have had interaction with the woman who owns the herd.  All her goats are well loved and taken care of!  She has 4 bucks in one pasture and around 20-30 (I didnt count) does of which 12 are currently bred.  Some of them will be kidding at the end of Feb and the rest in May.

She had good facilities and all the animals are clean, happy, and not that it matters, but registered.  Everyone who cares for animals has started somewhere and I knew nothing about chickens a year ago but read everything I could get my hands on and asked a lot of dumb questions on BYC and I havent lost one yet.  I know there is quite a difference, but you get my meaning I hope.  (BTW I know I have to keep them OUT of the chicken food; there is no way they can get to it unless they can figure out how to undo 3 sets of locks)  I have read both the Storeys guides to Dairy and Meat goats and I think the whole Fias Co Farms website.  I have also asked the breeder if I could help out on her farm to learn properly how to milk, trim hooves, ect. and she was fine with that.  I am admittedly a beginner, but I am doing all I can to learn and asking questions here to avoid mistakes.

I dont think any of her goats appeared fearful, just disinterested in people, but that is my fear that moving to a new place and being removed from their dams would be too much stress and they wouldnt bond well with me.  Oh, and as far as what milk I would feed them, she will be providing me with the milk if I choose.  (Clearly I left A LOT out)  No, she doesnt want to hassle with bottle babies herself, but I wouldnt expect her to, if I want them to be bottle babies Ill do it myself.



			
				cmjust0 said:
			
		

> BTW...that you wondered aloud about feeding before you put them to bed tells me that you've got really high expectations of what raising bottle babies might be like..     My experience is that bottle babies sleep when they want..  You sleep when they'll allow it.


Okay, I know that sounded dumb, but I meant that I wondered when there is a definite end to the any time of night feedings, at what age.

I have all the time in the world to sit with them.  I work mostly seasonally and right now is down time, and when I do work, its from here.  





			
				ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Bottle feeding is a lot of work. Those goats have to be fed no matter what you are doing, have planned or are sick, no matter what type of weather. Just keep that in mind. Some people don't mind it, some do.


I understand that they must be fed on their own schedule, but I meant that there is a point where they go from round the clock milk-feeding to once a day and the Fias Co Farms website didnt specify if 3 times per day meant every 8 hours or 6am, noon, and 6pm.



			
				ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I think if you have newborn goats that you are feeding, they need to be somewhere other than a 3 sided shed. I would say for at least the first week or so. Maybe someone else can pipe in about that but even with a 3 sided shelter, they will still get some draft. i would probably even go a minimum of 2 weeks. Even if you keep them in a garage or something where there are no drafts and you can have a heat lamp going.


I do hope someone pipes in, thats why I brought it up.  Thats why I mentioned the dogloo that I have though.  The shelter opening faces so it misses the majority of where our winds come from and I planned to position the dogloo toward the back wall so when they walk into it that side buffets them from whatever wind gets through.  I dont have a garage though so the only other option for bottle babies is to have them in the house, which is fine, but I think DH would prefer them outside.

Roll: Thanks for your input, definitely cleared up the 3 times a day thing!  I'm now hoping I can have them after 2 weeks so they for sure get colostrum and best raising with their dams but I still have plenty of time to bond with me.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 28, 2010)

Well, just to chime in...dam raised babies aren't necessarily wild.  OP, were the dam raised babies wild and unfriendly?  That's going to be the key.  Our herd sire is a 3 year old buck that was dam raised, but was cuddled, played with, held, talked to, etc. everyday.  I've got to say that he is the most gentle, well-behaved of all of our goats.  And, I don't think the fear of humans is necessarily irreversible, either.  One of our does was 6 months old and dam raised and a bit "wild" when we got her.  Now she wants to be held and petted and brushed all the time.  I don't think it's as simple as one is one way and the other is the other way.  Either way, raising goats is going to require "work"  - I think it's just up to you what kind of work you want to do.  

Good luck!  Goat babies are GREAT!


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 28, 2010)

oh, we posted at the same time!  Not sure about the three sided structure.  Our big girls are in a three sided structure, and our kidding stall is a three sided structure.  We put stacks of hay and straw on the open side to sort of close off the openness.  We have a pet porter sort of thing that the babies can go in, and we also use a milk crate for hay in there that is attached to the wall about a foot and a half off the ground at the bottom.  Often, when I go in in the morning, all the babies are curled up under the hay feeder together.  They have been in this structure since birth, and we have not had a problem with them getting too cold (and it is COLD here), but their momma is jugged in with them, and I am sure she does a lot to keep them warm.  Have you seen those barn heating pad things?  That might be an idea.


----------



## jlbpooh (Jan 28, 2010)

One of my goats was dam raised and I got him at 8 weeks old, the other I don't know about because he was 6 months old when I got him. They are both wethered Nigerian Dwarfs, and are now 6 months and 10 months old. Both of them are very, very tame. If you sit down, they will jump right in your lap and chew on your hair, coat, pants, untie your shoes, unzip your jacket, etc. If you are trying to fix something, or build something, they will be right there to "help" you. The one that was for surely dam raised came from a farm where they are full-time farmers. Part of their kids "jobs" were to spend as much time with the baby goats as possible to help bond them with humans. He is reaaalllly bonded with people.  I am getting 2 more from that farm in a few months, they are due to be born in about a month. I think their babies have gotten the best of both worlds being left with Momma and still given a lot of human TLC as wee babies. I had been given the opportunity from another farm to get bottle babies for the same price as these two, and decided not to do it being a first-time goat owner.


----------



## lupinfarm (Jan 28, 2010)

I totally agree with Mini-M, just because the baby was dam-raised doesn't mean it's going to be wild. Both my does were dam-raised but came from a home with small children who fussed over them all the time. Cissy is a total love-hog, Mione is less forward and in your face and does take some coaxing to come around, but when she does she's well behaved and likes to have a nice pat.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jan 29, 2010)

I'm another fan of dam raised babies.    My doe was dam raised, and she's still very friendly, will come right up to me for loving.  She's not in my face like most bottled does are.  I boarded a bottle fed doe for breeding season, and I couldn't keep her from jumping on me, trying to get in my pockets, messing with anything I was doing at the time, etc.  I just find that obnoxious.  I will say that I'm more of a fan of sheep than goats, though I love goats.  Sheep tend to be less obnoxious, so I think I'm just more used to it.  

I would opt for the older babies if it was my choice.  I have bottled so many babies that it's just gotten old for me.  I used to enjoy bottling calves, but after hundreds of them it gets old quick.    I think the older babies would do fine as long as you spend time with them.


----------



## lilhill (Jan 29, 2010)

All of my babies are dam raised, but I spend tons of time with them every day.  At present, they range in age from 1 month to 5 days old (all total for now is 7 little twerps).  When they see me coming to the barn, it's a mad rush to see which one gets to me first.  I sit down and just let them use me as their jungle jim.  I'm their favorite toy you might say.  But dam raised kids are not all wild as March hares if you do the work needed to socialize them to humans.  It's time consuming, definitely, but I enjoy every minute we spend together.  And they will have good homes with their new owners because they enjoy being with people.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 29, 2010)

Just to be clear...I have no problem with dam-raised babies either, provided they're given lots of human attention in those first few weeks.  Our dam-raised kids are as sweet as can be on account of we can't help but wanting to go out there to play with them, pick them up to look them over everyday, carry them around, etc..  

I think maybe I just read too much into what was said...or perhaps what _wasn't_ said....I dunno....either way, I think I maybe got the wrong impression of the breeder right off the bat.

If she's gonna socialize them and get them tamed down, I'd probably go with a dam-raised kid.  Of course, bottle babies aren't really 'new' for me anymore, either...and it is really a neat thing to do, especially the first time or two.

But trust me when I say that if you stick with goats, you'll have ample "opportunity" to bottle feed in the future.


----------



## chandasue (Jan 29, 2010)

With my two goats one was dam raised, the other bottle fed. They're both very sweet, tame and follow me around like puppies but the dam raised girl is not as "snuggly" as the bottle fed girl. The bottle fed girl thinks she's a lap goat!  I plan to bottle feed our babies despite the added commitment.


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 29, 2010)

Wow, I really appreciate all the replies!  You are all great!


			
				cmjust0 said:
			
		

> ...we can't help but wanting to go out there to play with them, pick them up to look them over everyday, carry them around, etc..


Wait...so is there a special way to pick up a goat (as opposed to picking up a dog) because while I know I'll want to, I was afraid to.  I read somewhere (probably here) that goats shouldn't roll over because of the structure of the rumen and the pressure could kill them.  How does this apply to picking them up?  What is the proper way to pick them up for either cuddles or to put them in the pickup or whatever?


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jan 29, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> Wow, I really appreciate all the replies!  You are all great!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can pick them up, but keep them sternal.  Just put your arm under their bellies (from over their backs, not underneath) and pick them up.  Does that make sense?  Like you'd hold a football.    Yanno, just scoop 'em up!


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 29, 2010)

Okay if the picture in my head is right then that's what I was thinking.  I wouldn't want to go get them and hurt them within minutes by picking them up wrong.


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jan 29, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> Okay if the picture in my head is right then that's what I was thinking.  I wouldn't want to go get them and hurt them within minutes by picking them up wrong.


I think their flailing if you turned them on their backs would have clued you in.


----------



## Mini-M Ranch (Jan 29, 2010)

It's really weird... I go out to feed momma goat and give her fresh water, and all of the sudden, there is this little goatlet in the crook of my arm.  And if I am not careful, another one will appear in the other arm.  And then, there is another one standing on my foot.  How DOES this happen?  lol.

They are just too irresistible and you've picked them up before you even realize it.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 29, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> Okay if the picture in my head is right then that's what I was thinking.  I wouldn't want to go get them and hurt them within minutes by picking them up wrong.


With regard to their physicality -- the flesh and bone, so to speak -- goats are tough as a boiled owl.  They're tough, rugged animals.  They ram and head-butt one another, jump off tall things...I've seen many a baby kid not quite make it up on what they were jumping at and come down backward, absolutely BASHING their little skulls on the ground.  It happens...  That's the nature of the beast.  From day one, though, they're more or less able to take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

But let one get an e.coli, salmonella, or clostridial bloom in the gut, or get too heavy a parasite load, develop coccidiosis, pneumonia, even mineral deficiencies and so forth.....that's when you learn that the rugged exterior isn't all their is to a goat.  Not by a long shot.

Lots of people have _buried_ slick, beautiful, very well-conditioned, "always really healthy" goats that were absolutely fine the day before.  

I'm one of those people, unfortunately..

So when you hear people say that goats are fragile, they're probably not talking about the _external_ kind of fragile you may be thinking in regard to picking one up.  

That, they can definitely handle.

And the kind of attention and caring goes along with carrying baby goats around and loving on them goes a long, long way toward noticing the early signs and fending off the other stuff.


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 29, 2010)

One of our bottle kids just snarfs her bottle down ahead of the other 2, and then spends the rest of the time climbing on / removing the hat from / picking the pockets of my husband or me.  
We swear she does it so she can have "us" all to herself before the other kids finish eating.  
Baby goats are just the best things in the world.  So curious and smart and funny...
The more you handle them, at any age, the more they get used to it / accept you when you NEED to handle them.
Just curb them from jumping up on you before they get too big.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 29, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> One of our bottle kids just snarfs her bottle down ahead of the other 2, and then spends the rest of the time climbing on / removing the hat from / picking the pockets of my husband or me.
> We swear she does it so she can have "us" all to herself before the other kids finish eating.
> Baby goats are just the best things in the world.  So curious and smart and funny...
> The more you handle them, at any age, the more they get used to it / accept you when you NEED to handle them.
> Just curb them from jumping up on you before they get too big.


You're lucky!  The only thing I've ever had a 'bottle basher' do when it finishes way early is try to steal the other kids' bottles.  

I've actually been known to make quick drinkers kinda chase their bottle around a bit while the other one(s) finish.


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 29, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I think their flailing if you turned them on their backs would have clued you in.


LOL, not what I meant but if I did that I surely would get a well deserved kick in the face, or many kicks.  Yowza.

So it's okay to pick them up but keep a supporting arm to their chest (through their legs toward the back?) and the other arm supporting the rump?  No touching the tummies right?  That's how I'm picturing it.  That is my concern, not to put pressure of even their own weight on your arm to their bellies, right?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Or do you put your "chest" arm just under their chest and back up?  I'm going to have to look up pics of people holding goats....


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 29, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Just curb them from jumping up on you before they get too big.


Must...not...give...in...to...goat...cuteness.....aaaahhhhh, I don't have them yet and it's hard to even think about 

Even though Nigis are small by comparison, I don't think I'd want a full grown using me as a jungle gym, ouch.  I'll try to restrain myself from encouraging bad behavior


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jan 29, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know how to make a drawing, so I googled to find a pic of how I normally hold lambs and kids.  I swear, this was the only picture I could find!!   This is how I normally hold them .  

But there's really no "right" way I guess.  They just don't like to be on their back.  Sometimes I'll hold them with one arm in front of the chest and one behind the rump. It all depends on what I'm doing with them.


----------



## Lil Chickie Mama (Jan 29, 2010)

Okay, I'm glad to hear they aren't as fragile on the outside as I was afraid of.  Thanks for the pic I love it! (sorry for mine, I tried to do it quick)


----------



## cmjust0 (Jan 29, 2010)

Lil Chickie Mama said:
			
		

> Okay, I'm glad to hear they aren't as fragile on the outside as I was afraid of.  Thanks for the pic I love it! (sorry for mine, I tried to do it quick)


Definitely watch your elbows around baby goats.  

I say that based on the drawing..  It appears that your elbows are exceptionally pointy.


----------



## Roll farms (Jan 29, 2010)

Good gravy on a biscuit...There's a "right" way to hold them????

Well, apparently the "wrong" way won't kill them, b/c I've had them upside down, right side up, sideways, etc...

I'm dead serious...I never knew there was a designated way to hold them.  I just grab whatever's closest to me and pull 'em up into my arms (if they aren't there already...)

CM...the kid who's done first is not interested in food as much as she is us, but YES, she is definitely the exception to the rule.

Little Reggie, the paint / dapple, who's only 2 weeks old now...is stealing and finishing the slower girl's bottle....and she's not even half her size!


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Jan 29, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Good gravy on a biscuit...There's a "right" way to hold them????
> 
> Well, apparently the "wrong" way won't kill them, b/c I've had them upside down, right side up, sideways, etc...
> 
> I'm dead serious...I never knew there was a designated way to hold them.  I just grab whatever's closest to me and pull 'em up into my arms (if they aren't there already...)


Who said there's a right way to hold them?


----------



## lilhill (Jan 30, 2010)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm with you, I grab them any way I can get them.  They really, really won't break.  Tough little buggers.


----------

