# Black Spot's 1st doeling: sad update



## phoenixmama (May 10, 2011)

Black Spot's 1st "tentative" due date is May 16.  Her next due dates are June 1 and June 10.  She is a first freshener and she is gigantic.  I really hope this first due date is the one...because I don't how she could go much longer.  She's been waddling around for sometime now, but just within the last few days will only get up when I come outside if she knows she's getting some grain out of the deal.  And she's not hanging out with the others...this just started today.  I did notice that she didn't look as rotund today as she has been looking...do kids "drop" the way that babies will drop in humans?  Her vulva is still dry.  Also, I'm not by any means an expert yet...but the other night I saw movement so I put my hands on both sides of her and I definitely felt babies on both sides.  Could a kid really be that big?  Or should I assume I felt two different kids when that happened?  

I've got high hopes for her.  Her mama had triplets her first kidding and earned her SG title that first year.  I'm tired of paying $10/gallon for raw milk, so I'm looking forward to having our own supply!  She is our sweet & lady-like girl.  She's always very polite, exceptionally quiet, and doesn't get nervous when I touch her udder.  I'm hoping that continues when we start milking her! 

The current plan is when we see her vulva getting moist, to move her to the kidding pen that is outside our bedroom door.  It's still cool out at night here, so we sleep with the windows open...since she'll be right there I will be able to hear her...as long as she's louder than usual, that is.  

She was bred to a friend's buck who can be seen here: http://www.veteransranch.com/Nubian_Dairy_Goats.html His name is Tobly.  

Her pedigree (for those interested in such things) is here: http://adgagenetics.org/GoatDetail.aspx?RegNumber=N001531290 

Here's a pic from today, she's loves this little spot between her barn and the wall.







[/url]
DSCF7502 by bethanylobocki, on Flickr[/img]


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## KellyHM (May 10, 2011)

Holy cow, she IS huge!  I'd be thinking 3+.


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## phoenixmama (May 10, 2011)

Well, there's clear discharge coming out...time to start watching a bit more closely.


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## happydodgefarm6113 (May 10, 2011)

She is beautiful. Hope all goes well. I will be reading about her progress when you post.


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## DonnaBelle (May 10, 2011)

Yep, she looks a lot like my Lenora, who's also big/wide as the front end of a Mack truck!!!

Just wait till you see those baby goaties, they are too cute to describe with mere words.

DonnaBelle


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## elevan (May 10, 2011)




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## Emmetts Dairy (May 11, 2011)

I hope your busy with your new kids!!!   Hope everything goes great for you!!!!  

Waiting for baby pics!!!    Please!!


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## mossyStone (May 11, 2011)




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## BackFortyFarm (May 11, 2011)

In on the watch party.......


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## phoenixmama (May 11, 2011)

Still no babies...

Her vulva was dry again last night...and ligs were still soft but not "gone".  I'm going to give her backside and udder a little shave this morning so I can keep a closer watch on the status of her ligs and how she's holding her tail.  She's got some more clear discharge this morning.  

I'm wondering, since this is my first kidding as well as hers, if I _really_ "get" this whole ligaments thing.  :/

Also, is the general consensus that from the start of real, active pushing that if no kids come out in an hour, she's in trouble...requiring gloving/lubing/going in/kid rearrangement?


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## KellyHM (May 11, 2011)

phoenixmama said:
			
		

> Still no babies...
> 
> Her vulva was dry again last night...and ligs were still soft but not "gone".  I'm going to give her backside and udder a little shave this morning so I can keep a closer watch on the status of her ligs and how she's holding her tail.  She's got some more clear discharge this morning.
> 
> ...


I've got 7 kiddings u nder my belt so far and I still don't get the ligament thing.


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## phoenixmama (May 13, 2011)

Still no increase in discharge...ligaments feel about the same, soft but certainly not "gone".  I know it's a little risky, but I'm going to load up my human kids and run over to a local orchard to pick peaches.  I'm out of peach jam, and that is a travesty.    I'm sure those of you that love peaches and homemade peach jam as much as I do, would agree.  

I even had a dream about goats and kidding last night.  Good grief.


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## rebelINny (May 13, 2011)

Hopefully she will go for you soon! Congrats on your future first kidding!


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## phoenixmama (May 13, 2011)

Just got back from picking peaches.  You know what happens when you take kids peach picking?  $55.10.  That's what.  

"This is SO much fun, Mama!"
"We need lots MORE peaches!"

I've got nearly 35 lbs. of peaches to put up this weekend.  That'll get Black Spot started, just wait and see.


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## Roll farms (May 13, 2011)

You don't want all that old peach jam hanging around your place.

Better send some here to IN.  Yep, that'll help.

Good luck on your kidding...goo can happen up to 3wks early, but a rope of amber goo means business.  

And yes, if after an hour of serious pushing (not just contractions), I will go in.


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## phoenixmama (May 17, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> You don't want all that old peach jam hanging around your place.
> 
> Better send some here to IN.  Yep, that'll help.


LOL...It is dangerous.  I cannot stay out of it.  I didn't get much made the other day, only 6 pint jars.  I had to run out and get more pectin.  I still have lots of peaches in my kitchen, it smells wonderful...it was a really good crop this year since we had such a cold winter.  (Well, cold for here anyway)


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## phoenixmama (May 17, 2011)

So, we are now one day after her first "tentative" due date.  Her next "tentative" due dates are June 1st and June 10th.  I felt (well, as much as a neophyte goat herdswoman can feel) that May 16th was _the_ day.  She's just huge!  But since my first posting on this thread, there has been no more change in her pelvic ligaments or discharge.  So, my question:  At what point do I decide May 16th is definitely not _the_ due date?  

My husband wants to take the kids camping May 27th-29th (our anniversary & Memorial Day weekend, of course).  He really wants me to come too, but I feel so nervous leaving.  Would that be insane for me to leave, while our animal sitter checked in twice a day on the goats?  Or should I ASSume that she could kid any day between now and June 10ish?  I'm feeling a pang of guilt for my hobby interfering with our family's ability to go camping...which is something we've always loved doing.  :/

Good heavens, she's killing me.


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## mossyStone (May 17, 2011)

Boy thats a hard choice to make....

I won't hardely leave my place for a month lol when my does are due..... I am a real nut case  LOL.....

I hear from my family all the time " goats have been having babies for 1000's of yrs with  OUT your help"..of course i always reply... not my goats!!!! LMAO!

Come July i wont be going any where till i see babies on the ground


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## chandasue (May 17, 2011)

That is tough... For me that would be too close for me to leave. I have one due July 5 so I won't be going anywhere for that holiday either. Camping is a big deal for us as well but I have to carefully plan our vacation now around when I have goats due.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

phoenixmama said:
			
		

> So, we are now one day after her first "tentative" due date.  Her next "tentative" due dates are June 1st and June 10th.  I felt (well, as much as a neophyte goat herdswoman can feel) that May 16th was _the_ day.  She's just huge!  But since my first posting on this thread, there has been no more change in her pelvic ligaments or discharge.  So, my question:  At what point do I decide May 16th is definitely not _the_ due date?
> 
> My husband wants to take the kids camping May 27th-29th (our anniversary & Memorial Day weekend, of course).  He really wants me to come too, but I feel so nervous leaving.  Would that be insane for me to leave, while our animal sitter checked in twice a day on the goats?  Or should I ASSume that she could kid any day between now and June 10ish?  I'm feeling a pang of guilt for my hobby interfering with our family's ability to go camping...which is something we've always loved doing.  :/
> 
> Good heavens, she's killing me.


I had the same problem last october, spent $500 on a bred doe, and ofcourse two days before a 3 day camping trip still no babies, I was frustrated with our poor timing and the fact that it seemed obvious I was staying home.  She kidded the night before we left and all was well. 

I am sending you good luck vibes.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

What are you basing your May 16th due date on, Was she in with the buck the entire time or you took her to the buck and exposed her for an hour or a day?   Or was she in with the buck for a couple months?


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## phoenixmama (May 17, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> What are you basing your May 16th due date on, Was she in with the buck the entire time or you took her to the buck and exposed her for an hour or a day?   Or was she in with the buck for a couple months?


The three due dates are based on three separate occasions that she was in with the buck, she wasn't in with him the entire time.  I added 150 days from the "official" date of service.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 17, 2011)

I would consider 145 to 155 days to be very normal.  so you have until May 21 by those calculations. before I gave up on that first due date and moved on to the 2nd due date.


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## phoenixmama (May 17, 2011)

Ok, that's helpful.  Thanks, 20kids!


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## phoenixmama (May 19, 2011)

Man, oh man...a fair amount of bagging up seemed to take place practically overnight!  

Also, I'm reconsidering my kidding pen area.  We have a large back porch that is covered.  I have a bedroom door that opens up to the porch, so I originally thought that would be best.  However, the floor of the porch is concrete, and she really doesn't like to lay down right there.  I do have it padded with some hay, but she just can't seem to get comfy...not that I can blame her.  Would it be better to just keep them in their usual barn/penned in area for kidding?  It's just the two does, so they would be together regardless.  I liked the idea of being able to hear them at night since they are right there outside my room also if I need light for nighttime kidding, I can simply turn on the light...but I guess I could go the baby monitor route.  I just don't like it that she doesn't seem comfortable there.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 19, 2011)

Mine wouldn't be able to get comfy in 2 feet of shavings the last week of gestation!    Uncomfortable is the name of the game for those poor gals.


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Well...most of you are probably asleep, but I think that tonight is the night.  Black Spot bagged up like crazy, we've got egg white consistency yellowish goo as discharge, and I can just barely feel what I think are her ligaments.  Every so often she curls her tail up over her back...contractions?

Of course on irrigation night...we've got water 6-8 inches deep in the back...talk about doe code.

I'm sitting on my back porch with my iPad watching her like an obsessive compulsive hawk.

...stay tuned


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## RainySunday (May 25, 2011)

Good luck!


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## Margali (May 25, 2011)

phoenixmama said:
			
		

> Well...most of you are probably asleep, but I think that tonight is the night.  Black Spot bagged up like crazy, we've got egg white consistency yellowish goo as discharge, and I can just barely feel what I think are her ligaments.  Every so often she curls her tail up over her back...contractions
> 
> ...stay tuned


I'm on night shift! Wide awake and wishing you luck. 

I don't have any goats yet but the tail curls sound like contractions to me. I wonder if timing them would tell you anything?


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Elmers glue lookin' stuff now...she's passed lots of fluid.  If this isn't it...I will eat my hat.  Or head lamp, as it were.


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Well, it's bittersweet.  We've got one very lovely 5# spotted brown doeling (the firstborn)...but the second born was a stillborn 4# solid brown buckling.

More update tomorrow...


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

...Okay I've got questions.  I'm a little unsure of what to do.  

My initial plan was to pull kids at birth, and bottle feed.  However, now that there's just the one doeling (that we plan to keep)...and Black Spot's normal penmate Brownie was being too rude for my comfort level...I didn't want Black Spot or the doeling to be by themselves.  So, they are together.  She's being a very good mother so far...but baby is so small, and hasn't stood up to nurse yet.  I've held her up a few times for her to get used to nursing from mom...and milked out about 4 oz. from Black Spot to give to baby in a bottle since she wasn't standing to nurse.  Do I just assume that she'll be nursing okay?


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## Roll farms (May 25, 2011)

If she seems weak, I would continue to bottle feed her until she's stronger and been seen nursing or you feel a consistently round, full tummy.

eta, sorry you lost the buckling, the doe sounds lovely.


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## Emmetts Dairy (May 25, 2011)

Congratulations on your doe.  Im sorry about the loss of your buckling  that terrible news.  

For the nursing what I do is stand the baby up next to the teat and encourage the feeding.  I would try your best to have her eat off Mom..if shes too weak, hold her there to get some milk into her so she can get some energy to continue feeding herself.  If not..you will have to bottle feed and make sure you get food into her, preferable the within the first hour after birth.  Important.

Good luck I hope it works out for you and her!


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for the condolences for the little buckling...I think what was so sad was seeing the difference in how Black Spot treated him, she licked him so much more forcefully she did the doeling.  Perhaps trying to get him going?  After I removed him though, she directed her attentions right back at the doeling.


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## ksalvagno (May 25, 2011)

Congratulations on the doeling and sorry about the buckling.


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 25, 2011)

Pictures?


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Here's a pic...I took more, but gotta hurry through my morning routine over here.  I'll post more later.  







[/url]
DSCF7558 by bethanylobocki, on Flickr[/img]

I suppose I would consider her "weak"...so what should I do, besides bottle feeding until she's strong enough to nurse on her own?  She was born around 12:30 last night (pacific time) and still hasn't stood on her own.  Is it because she's smallish?  Or doesn't that have much to do with it?


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## willowbreezefarm (May 25, 2011)

You had a lovely kid! congrats!!


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Okay...so I've gotten 2 more oz. of colostrum into her since this mornings post.  She's holding her head up really well, and has tried to stand...but without success at this point.  

I'm going to keep offering her colostrum every couple hours since she's not drinking a lot at a time.  

Re: dipping navels...I dipped her navel in iodine last night, but it doesn't look like it.  I guess I was expecting her umbilical cord to be stained by the iodine.  So, I'm second guessing myself thinking I didn't dip it for long enough.  I don't know...am I being silly?  I dipped it in the iodine and held it in there for maybe 2 seconds.  Did I do that right?  Do they just not look stained afterwards?  

(Can you tell I'm new at this?) :/

ETA:  Should I give her her .5 cc of Bo-Se now?  Also, would .5 cc or so of Vit. B complex be of help to her?






[/url]
DSCF7551 by bethanylobocki, on Flickr[/img]


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## RainySunday (May 25, 2011)

So sorry to hear about the buckling.  The doeling is adorable though!  I really don't know about the BoSe or Vit. B, but I imagine most here would say, may as well, could't hurt (but please don't take my word for it).  As far as the iodine, I've been told by my goat mentor that she dips at least twice (once at first, another time a few hours later), since mom will sometimes clean it off for you.  So, maybe dip it again?


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## ThreeBoysChicks (May 25, 2011)

Love the picture.  She is adorable.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 25, 2011)

I would give her the BoSe.

I would be worried about filling her with too much milk, not being able to stand.  I know getting the first milk in them is important, but it is hard for them to digest milk laying down,  

I would do a mixture of mom's milk, 2 or 3 teaspoons of corn syrup, some warm satrong regular coffee(not decaf), A kid can survive on the corn syrup alone for 3 or 4 days, but you would want to take advantage of getting some mother's milk in her it is a fine line, between, getting enough energy into her and causing her to bloat, because she can't stand. 


I would add 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda at some point, I would go up to 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda and force feed it, if she stops sucking and doesn't act hungre in a 3 or 4 hour period. Sure sign of stomach upset from laying down too much. 

keep trying to help her balance and stand up,especially after feeding her. If she has enough strength to hold her front end up and you can help balance her back end that is better than nothing. Don't let her lay flat on her side.  Roll up a towel and prop her up against it, especially after feeding her. 

Good luck with her.


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, 20kids!  I will follow your suggestions.


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## phoenixmama (May 25, 2011)

Ok...so there've been a few instances of standing.  

But Miss Black Spot never thinks her baby is clean enough...so drew blood on Oatmeal's umbilical cord.  (Yes, the current name for baby is Oatmeal)  I didn't know what to do...so I dipped the cord again in iodine.  I really, really hope that was the right thing to do.  

At the same time, Miss Oatmeal was awfully lethargic...so I gave her 4 cc of black, strong coffee.  I also gave her a bit of corn syrup mixed with a bit of colostrum.  

I'm a little worried I'm over thinking the whole thing...but I feel so nervous that I'm not doing this weak kid care thing right.  She still won't nurse on her own...big surprise since she can hardly stand on her own.  

I hope this baby stays alive.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 25, 2011)

I think you have the right to be worried about her, she sounds like she is having a hard time.

When you say not nursing, do you mean she has no sucking reflex, or just not able to balance her self well enough to get onto the teat. 

If she is acting hungry every 3 or 4 hours, you are heading in the right direction.  I have noticed they will be real hungry at first, eat real well a couple times and then seem to need to rest for a while.  

I would just do the best you can with her this evening , and then give her 6 to 8 hours or so tonight to rest with her mom.

The mother's stimulation is good for her.   

oh and the corn syrup will make her a little loose, but I don't worry about it. 

I can tell by those photos she has very weak back legs. But it is really good progress if she is holding herself up a little bit.


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## babsbag (May 25, 2011)

She is definately adorable. I hope she keeps getting stronger.

There is a post in the "disease" section where someone made a sling to hold up a weak baby. She had very good luck with it so far.

I was told by a "goat" friend that the moms lick them and sometimes paw at them when they think the kids should get up or nurse. It is just their way of trying to get the kid moving as they know that is the key to living.

I have 11 kids under a month in my pasture right now and I never stop worrying about them, but when they are newborns, for at least the first week, I think they sleep way to much for my comfort. Maybe one day I will get the hang of what is normal, but for now, I like them awake and playing 24/7  But it seems that they do sleep quite a bit when they are first born.

Good luck with her, I hope she pulls through for you.


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

I would give her 2cc of B vitamin and 1/2 cc of BoSe.

Don't feed too often, she needs to have a chance to digest what she's been given.  I give as much as they'll take in a feeding (usually 4-5 oz w/ tiny Nubs) and then feed again 6 hrs later.

Good luck w/ her!


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## phoenixmama (May 26, 2011)

Well, a sad update.  

The doeling died last night.  She was showing improvement yesterday morning...but throughout the day started to decline little by little.  I would feel really awful about the whole thing, but I can't think of anything I would have done differently.  At the end, her temp. got down to 93 degrees despite my efforts to keep her warm.  

I feel awful for Black Spot, she has been crying for her baby all morning.  

This turned out to be a pretty rotten first kidding.


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## RPC (May 26, 2011)

I am so sorry that this was such a bad first kidding for you but you did everything you can and I am sure you next will be better.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 26, 2011)

Sorry I couldn't be more help.


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## phoenixmama (May 26, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Sorry I couldn't be more help.


Nonesense.  You were lots of help, 20kids.  You gave me a plan.


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## elevan (May 26, 2011)

I am so sorry that you lost the doeling.


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## Goatherd (May 26, 2011)

So sorry to hear about the baby.


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## phoenixmama (May 26, 2011)

Thanks everyone.  I'm determined to stay positive!  

*Taking off my emotional hat and putting on my farmer's hat*

On the bright side, my doe is healthy and milking great!  I've got LOTS of 1st and 2nd day colostrum (plus more to come) stored away in the freezer for future kids that might need it.  And I still have Brownie due to kid in a few weeks.  I'm hopeful that those kids come at the right time and are healthy and strong.


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## PattySh (May 26, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the loss of your doeling, she was beuatiful. Glad to hear your doe is  fine and milking well.


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)




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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 26, 2011)




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## goatdreamerCT (May 26, 2011)

She was well loved and cared for in her short precious life. Good luck with your second kidding and hoping it's a textbook delivery for you


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## mossyStone (May 26, 2011)

I am so very sorry..


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## babsbag (May 27, 2011)

I am sorry you lost the baby. It is always hard and I think it makes it worse when the does cry for thier kids. I have 11 kids to wean and sell/give away and I am not looking forward to any of it. 

I hope the next time it has a happy ending. If you get twins maybe Black Spot will adopt one, I have had it happen.

Good luck.


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