# ram acting off.. *dead.. necropsy results*



## dwbonfire (Sep 12, 2012)

so i recently got a ram lamb and a ewe lamb about a month ago. they have settled in well with my one year old ewe.. they seem to be venturing off around the property more and more, so the possibility that he ate something could be?

when i let him in tonight i noticed he just seemed mellow. nothing too significant, but just a little mellow. i just went out to check on him and he seemed the same, stand offish as he usually is, but i was able to catch him. this is the first time i have really tried, but im a little surprised i was able to.. i checked his gums but they are mostly black so hard to say, and his eye lids seemed a little pale. i was able to catch my one year old ewe to compare eyelids and hers were much more pink. not sure if it was her struggling to get away that could make them pink? i was unable to catch the other ewe lamb that i got at the same time i got the ram lamb..

when we picked them up we were told they had just been dewormed. we got them from a breeder so i believe she would be truthful. not sure what she dewormed with, i will email her to ask.

since having my older ewe, i have not wormed her once.. and she had the more pink eye lids.. i am surprised if he were just wormed he would be pale.. what else could pale eye lids mean? im not sure what to do, i dont have any meds on hand so anything will have to wait until the morning :/ i know acting promptly is best.. should i just monitor him to see how he is in the morning or anything i should do now?
thanks


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

can anyone give me a little advice? id like to run to TS this morning to get anything i may need for him.. was thinking ivermectin and i read of some kind of iron specifically for pigs, rather than red cell which is not good for sheep because of copper?


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 13, 2012)

I wouldn't recommend Red Cell for sheep.  He could need deworming again. Who knows what the breeder gave him, or if it was the right amount, or if it even worked on the type of worms he may have (sounds like could be Barberpole worms).  I'd go ahead and deworm him with something good (not Ivomec...try Cydectin maybe) and he could possibly have coccidiosis too. The stress from coming to your place could have caused a bloom of coccidia.  It may be worth it to have a fecal done for him.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

ok how much time do i have before he could go downhill real fast? i can try to get a fecal done today before i worm him that way i can worm him for what he HAS.. is there anything i can or should do in the meantime? sugarwater or something to help with anemia? of course i dont have molasses on hand  i had read that is good..
to get a fecal done i am wondering how i will get a sample specifically from him.. any ideas on how to do that? i just checked the other ewe lamb, shes a little on the pale side too. not as much as him.


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## SheepGirl (Sep 13, 2012)

If I were you I would take his temperature and deworm him. If he has a temp, then I would get him on an antibiotic.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

i will not have another set of hands here until the afternoon :/ i dont think i can get his temp by myself or i surely would, i would hate to hurt him bc i couldnt keep him still enough myself..


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## SheepGirl (Sep 13, 2012)

What I do when I'm by myself is I straddle the sheep's neck in between my legs, with me facing towards their butt. Depending on how well they're doing I will inch forward so I'm straddling the flank area, right in front of their hips, so I can reach/look better to see what I'm doing. When they aren't doing well, that's when they charge away from you...but that's why you put a halter on them so they can't get too far  

You can also wedge him in between a fence and a gate or a wall and a gate and take his temp that way. He may try to back out or even try to push the gate open, but if you're standing there holding onto the gate or preventing him from backing out you should be able to get his temp.

Just some ideas so that way when you run to TSC you can get an antibiotic if you need it


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

perfect! i will go do this right now! thanks so much!! i will post what his temp is so hopefully yall can let me know what i need for him.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

it was 104.8 !! what is normal for sheep? i remembered i have tylan 50 on hand.. thats all for meds. could worms cause a high temp? or could an injection of some sort cause his eyelids to be pale? just wondering if this is hand in hand or two different problems..

should i take the others temps to be sure? they seem fine but just incase?


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## SheepGirl (Sep 13, 2012)

Normal temps for sheep are 102-103. So I would definitely get him started on a broad-spectrum antibiotic. When my ewe had close to a 106 fever, the vet said to give her 5cc 2x/day of Pen G for five days (so total 50 cc for all five days) and her fever disappeared.

I'm not familiar with tylan 50, so I can't really help you there.

Worms wouldn't really cause a change in temp...as a general rule of thumb, if a sheep has a temp then it's an infection, but if they don't, then it's probably worms. I don't know of any injections to cause anemia, so I'm thinking in addition to an infection he also has barberpole worms, so yes two different problems.

You can take the other temps if it gives you peace of mind  I know when I have a sick sheep I freak out and I over analyze all my sheep to see if they're acting normal or if they seem off


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

thats exactly what im doing!! lol ahhh!!

thank you SO much for your help!! so i can get Pen G at TSC? i would call my vet but they really dont treat/see sheep so i dont think they would have much to say. hes not very big, not a year old yet so its hard to say his weight. if i did the 5cc twice a day would that be ok? not sure how big your ewe is.

im still unsure how to get a fecal sample of just his.. is barberpole the only worm that will cause the pale eyelids? or do i really need to try to get a sample to be sure what worm he has before i treat?


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeah, the high temp is probably what's affecting him, more so than the possible worm issue.  

As for getting a fecal, use a glove or put a plastic bag on your hand and go in and get a sample.   Yep, I mean use a lubricant (or spit) and use a couple fingers to get a fresh fecal sample from him, that way you know it's him and you know it's fresh.  Unless of course he decides to help you out and poops for you after you temp him or something. 

ETA: TSC probably has Pen G on hand.  And I'd do a fecal anyways. He could have worms, but he could also have coccidiosis and if he does you'll want to treat it.  They're fairly cheap, and it's good to know exactly what's going on.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

ok, i am going to call my vet to see if they will run a fecal on him then try to get some from him.. then head to TSC to get the Pen G. depending on what worms they find they will probably let me know what to use to deworm him. can i give the Pen G and wormer at the same time or should i wait until the 5 days of antibiotics are done then deworm? what would you recommend deworming with if they see the barberpoles? i have read they are a nasty worm!! i will probably deworm the ewe lamb as well since she was a little pale.. again thanks so much guys i wouldnt know what to do without ya!!


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## SheepGirl (Sep 13, 2012)

My ewe was 130 lbs.

But usually barberpole worms are the only worm that causes anemia, so if they do find it in the fecal, you want to read the labels of the dewormers and make sure they are labeled for barberpole worms.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

well i got 3 little poop balls!! he has nothing in there! my vet will run the sample but says they need a TBSP or two.. guess i will have to wait a bit and try again


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## RemudaOne (Sep 13, 2012)

With that temp, don't rule out pneumonia. The stress of moving is enough to bring down the immune system, which of course will also allow any worm load to explode. Good luck with him, hope he turns around for you soon!


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

the fecal came back with some coccidia seen, not an alarming amount, but his worm load was real high. they wouldnt say specifically that it was barberpole worms, but strongyles which i am told barberpole is a form of strongyle.

i got cydectin: what dose should i give him and is it only once, then repeated in two weeks? i also have some corrid so i will give that too, or will the cydectin take care of the coccidia? there are many technical names of worms on the label but none say 'barberpole'

i also got the penicillin, and the vet told me 3cc per 100lbs.. but the bottle says 1cc per 100lbs..
ETA: the penicillin says to give it in the muscle.. so should i give it in the rump area?


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 13, 2012)

Barberpoles are Haemonchus contortus.  Follow the instructions on the Cydectin label for dosage. I'd do it now and again in 3 weeks just to be sure you got everything. Or, give it now and do another fecal in 2-3 weeks.  The cydectin is only for worms, not coccidia.  You'd have to treat with Corid or Dimethox for that, and if they only saw a "few", you may not need to treat.  

I'd give the Pen at the higher rate.  I wouldn't give it in the rump area, I'd do it in the neck muscle.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

ok i wormed him and the other two sheep.. may worm the cow as well since she is always with them and penned with them at night. the cydectin is the cattle pour on so it doesnt have directions for oral use.. that i saw. will read it more carefully tonight when i have a chance

:/ i gave him the pen g in the rump before i saw your post... hope that is not a bad thing that i did. i will give it in the shoulder area tonight. it says to give it in the muscle so i just went for meaty spot..

i am able to pick him up easily enough that he cant weigh anymore than 60 pounds i dont think. im not good at guessing weight. i dosed him for 60lbs.. how many ml would you give a 60lb sheep of pen g? i gave him less than 1ml since the bottle said 1ml per 100 lbs..

he was up just a bit ago when i checked on him. i was glad to see that because any other time he has been laying down. i sure hope i caught things in time and get him turned around!


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## dwbonfire (Sep 13, 2012)

last question.. what would you dose a 60lb sheep for Pen G? about to give him his second dose today and just want to know if i should increase the amount. bottle says 1ml per 100lbs..


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## aggieterpkatie (Sep 14, 2012)

I would go with what your vet told you, so 3 ml/100.  So that'd be 1 cc per 33 lbs, so I'd dose him with at least 2 cc.


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## dwbonfire (Sep 14, 2012)

well my ram is up and eating and seems to be getting back to himself. i will continue the penicillin for another 3 - 5 days depending on how he is doing. thanks to everyone who gave me advice, couldnt have done it without yas! 

here is a pic of him (in the front) and the ewe lamb that i took a few weeks ago when they first got here!


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## SkyWarrior (Sep 14, 2012)

Great!  Here's to a healthy ram!  Now I'm hoping my doe gets better.


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## Bridgemoof (Sep 14, 2012)

Oh beautiful Jacob sheep!  I hope he is feeling better soon.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 5, 2012)

sad to report i found my ram dead this afternoon. really kind of numb about it, no idea what happened. i decided to update this thread with the news so you all would know the history of him being sick before..

last night when i fed them he choked on the grain a bit, was wondering if would have to intervene but he ended up fine. my ewes have done this a time or two as well, so since he seemed fine i didnt think anything of it. today i saw him kind of hanging out by himself, but wasnt alarmed by it because he is really a laid back fellow since ive got him and i have seen him a little far off from the girls in the shade before. this afternoon he and my ewe had a small little tiff, and kind of butted heads but nothing alarming again. he did have a small sneeze fit and i thought maybe she just hit him in the nose and it hurt? idk.. seemed ok afterwards. i went to run a few errands, came back and saw him off under the carport in the shade, when i went to look he was dead.

to be honest, this ram always seemed a little off to me. he always seemed really quiet and laid back, just unlike the ewes and any other sheep i have had, but i thought it was his personality, and i wasnt complaining really.. so now i wonder if he has had something wrong all along.. but what? he is 8 months old, so if he had something genetically wrong wouldnt he have died from it before now? as you read in this thread, he had been wormed with cydectin, and was on penicillin for 5 days previously.. so im not jumping right to worms being the culprit. from todays events, anything i should consider?


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 5, 2012)

So sorry for your loss.  He was handsome.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 5, 2012)

Can you have a necropsy done? If there was anything physical going on inside, you would find out.

I'm really sorry about your loss.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 5, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Can you have a necropsy done? If there was anything physical going on inside, you would find out.
> 
> I'm really sorry about your loss.


where would i be able to have this done? i personally would like to know what happened.. is it very costly though? :/


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## bonbean01 (Oct 5, 2012)

So sorry...he was a lovely fellow for sure 

Our neighbour had a ram lamb that he found dead one morning with no reason why, so no idea on why you lost your little guy


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## Bridgemoof (Oct 5, 2012)

So sorry dwBonfire,

We had to put our 8 month old Jacob ram lamb down today, too, but we knew it was coming. The only thing I can think of that maybe he had Urinary Calculi, but I think you would have seen signs of him straining to pee or a hunched back. Did you ever notice anything like that?

It's just sad when animals die, whether we know the reason or not. Sorry for your loss.


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## SheepGirl (Oct 5, 2012)

You can send him to your state lab...if you go through your state's ag dept web site, you may be able to find the state lab prices for necropsies. In Maryland, it is $125 if the animal is under 300 lbs.

Sorry for the loss of your ram


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## chickenzoo (Oct 5, 2012)

I'm very sorry for your loss. Been there this week too.... I know it cost me $235 for a necropsy on my llama at a vets. If I could have used my regular livestock vet it probably would have been less but it was a dire situation. I need to find out the cost at our local University just incase it ever comes up again... 
He was beautiful.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 5, 2012)

i got in touch with a friend who gave me info on a lab about 45 mins away. i made it up there right in time before they closed for the day! only thing they told me is they dont really do the toxicology, so i might not know if he ate something poisonous.. was hoping to know for sure and i HOPE rule that out. really dont want to have something toxic out there.. they told me to call monday so i hope i find out then what happened. they said they _may_ be able to tell if it was a toxic plant if they see something they can identify in his stomach. i hate to say i hope its one thing over another, but i would rather hear something like the urinary calculi than toxic plant. i hope that doesnt sound awful, but its really just because i dont want my girls and other animals at risk of eating something. how common of a problem is that with rams? i never saw signs, but truthfully wasnt *looking* for it. what a shame. he was a real sweet laid back, and PURDY boy. i just dont know if i can afford, or even find another ram and really was looking forward to lambs in the spring  sigh.. i will surely post when the results come in.


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## elevan (Oct 5, 2012)




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## BrownSheep (Oct 5, 2012)

You could always see if you could rent a ram. Generally much cheaper than buying. Most likely not a Jacob but it would get you your babies this year.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 8, 2012)

i got a message from the doctor who did the necropsy, she said he had severe pneumonia.. im kind of stumped by this.. why didnt i see signs? the only time he did anything strange was that very day right before he died, the sneezing thing i saw which really did not alarm me because i had never seen it before and i was going to be sure to watch for it again. i just dont understand.. i guess way back when he ran that temperature he must have been sick with it and i gave the penicilin for 5 or 6 days and he seemed fine since then, again, only until right before he died did i see anything a little odd about him. does pneumonia have signs usually?! ugh i am really sad about it, i feel like i should have known but i just never saw any signs. i am in close contact with them too, i lock them up every night and kind of 'hang out' with them, i always watch them eat and whatnot, i feel like i spent plenty of time observing to have seen signs. 
she said shes sending lung tissue off to be tested for any bacteria too, i will talk further with her tomorrow.


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## ksalvagno (Oct 8, 2012)

They can have a "walking" pneumonia that really doesn't show any signs. But if you listen to their lungs, you can hear it. Don't feel bad. You didn't know that he had it. Next time if this happens, you will know what to do. That is the unfortunate part of owning livestock.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 8, 2012)

i worry i would overlook it again if i had a sheep that had it in the future, because after i saw the sneezing incident he walked off like he was fine in the direction of where i found him, i left after that and when i came home he was dead. i feel like he died real soon after the only sign i saw. im assuming this is something thats been going on since i got him and the transport is what set it off, the ewe i got with him seems totally fine, but is there chance she could have the 'walking pneumonia' as well? im kind of paranoid now. i would have thought id see coughing, and if i did i surely would have investigated what was wrong.

about 3 years ago i had a few sheep brought to me from up north, i had no idea the transportation could be much of an issue at that time so never thought much of it. all the sheep seemed fine, then about 2 months or so later one of them was down and dead. i had no idea what happened and didnt look into it much. now that comes back to my mind because i never saw signs with her either, and im guartanteeing thats what happened to her too, pneumonia from the long haul. i never would have thought her death months later was linked to her transport.

i guess this is what they also call 'shipping fever'? is there something you can do before you take a sheep or goat for transport to lessen the chances of them getting sick? i am considering getting another ram, but now im worried to even bring him home and have this happen again because he may show no signs either!


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## Pearce Pastures (Oct 8, 2012)

Some people give something called Bovi Sera to prevent/treat shipping fever.  I think you can probably get it from Jeffers.com or maybe TSC.


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## RemudaOne (Oct 8, 2012)

If you're concerned for your other sheep, you could check thier temperatures.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 9, 2012)

i am going to take temps today. is this something that can spread to the others? i am looking at vaccines on jefferslivestock and they have the bovi sera, and they also have the pasturella vaccine. do most people vaccinate for pasturella too?


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## RemudaOne (Oct 9, 2012)

I had a young ewe get pneumonia when I sent her to a friends farm to wean her. When I brought her back, she seemed a bit depressed but I put it down to her dam rejecting her when she returned. Her symptoms were so subtle.... Like lagging behind when the flock ran in to eat in the evenings, mouth breathing after the exertion for a moment or two, kind of separating from the flock a bit. I put it down to being confined for a few weeks. When I finally took her temp and realized what was going on, she was too far gone and had not been eating. I believe at that point her rumen had shut down and she had too many strikes against her. We had her humanely euthanized. That's why I mentioned taking the temps if you feel the ewe is having problems as well. 

Contagion depends on whether it is viral or bacterial. Bacterial is what we had and it did not spread and is treated with antibiotics. You might do a search for "pneumonia in sheep". There's quite a lot of good info out there.


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## dwbonfire (Oct 9, 2012)

sorry about your ewe lamb as well.. looking back for signs, he did lag a bit but i thought it was mostly because the girls were so bossy to him, and always stole the grain. right up until he died i saw him grazing out in the pasture and when he would be laying down he would be chewing away. never noticed the mouth breathing at all.
the lab said it would take 7-10 days to get results about the lung tissue, so i guess then i will know if it was viral or bacterial. the girls seem totally fine, very interested in eating and alert. i am going to attempt taking temperatures this afternoon by myself but they are much more flighty when i try to grab them than he was, so im not sure ill be able to get that done til later.

i read some info on pneumonia, and many articles mention ventilation. the place i lock them up at night is a half solid wall and then top half open, plenty of ventilation in there and i clean it out to keep it dry. also the articles mentioned keeping the sheep themselves dry.. my sheep stay out reguardless of weather during the day, when it rains hard they usually find something to get under since theres plenty of shelter areas, but they do stay out in a light rain and eventually are quite soggy. i know with young animals getting wet and cold is not good, but these sheep are about adults, and plenty of wool on them.

can you tell me how you keep your sheep and do they stay out in all weather? also, do you vaccinate your sheep for the pasturella? im wondering if i should vaccinate my girls.

thanks


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## SkyWarrior (Oct 9, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your ram.    Was it pneumonia?


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## RemudaOne (Oct 9, 2012)

I think in my case it was the stress of not only weaning, but moving to a new place as well. They (his weanlings and mine) were penned up in a barn. While the barn is completely open but covered at the pen they were in (its closed on three sides with a long overhang on the open side) it was pretty dusty in there. Much of the reading I did talked about stress getting the animal down enough for bacteria to gain a foothold. 

Here at my place, unless they are about to lamb, or have just lambed, or if I need company for one in those circumstances, they all sleep out where they have access to shelter but are not confined. I have loafing sheds in the pasture and a barn in the small paddock. The barn is open on one side as well so perhaps the confinement, dust and stress was enough to make her suseptible to it. 

I've never had a ram that didn't push the ewes out of the way to take the lions share of the feed. Also in my reading, I found that it was not uncommon for an animal to have it for a month prior to exhibiting signs. I think that's what happened with mine. If your others are not exhibiting anything untoward, I wouldn't worry about it. I thought you had said there was a ewe you were concerned about. 

I don't vaccinate for it. But any further weaning will be done here at my place. Will just have to figure out the arrangements .


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## Bridgemoof (Oct 9, 2012)

dwBonfire,

I just want to let you know I am sorry about your ram. I've been reading this thread with interest, but don't have much to offer as I haven't had any experience with this kind of thing. I did have a ram lamb die earlier this year, I think I mentioned the urinary calculi as a possible cause. But now I wonder if it wasn't pneumonia as well. He had the same laid back attitude as your ram. He was weaned form his mom and shipped locally, only about a half hour away. But then he died at his new place a week later. They had the vet out but she didn't mention pneumonia, she thought maybe it was stress resulting in an ulcer. 

I think with sheep, and lambs in particular, there are many silent killers. It does pay to watch your sheep regularly and if they are acting a bit unusual, take their temp. I took my sheep Fluffy's temp this morning, as she was acting quieter than normal. And I did it after reading this thread! Luckily she was 101.9 and was acting her perky self later in the day.

Good luck with your other ewes. If you are anywhere close to Northern Virginia, I would be happy to lend you my new Jacob ram to breed to, he's so adorable and perfect!


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## dwbonfire (Oct 10, 2012)

remudaone - thanks so much for the reply. i am going to do a little more research on vaccinating for it.

bridgemoof - i wish i were closer to you! i am at the very bottom of north carolina! i appreciate your offer, i really hope my older ewe is at least bred. i am on the lookout for a ram, but not sure its going to happen this year


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## Bridgemoof (Oct 10, 2012)

Well hey! If one of my ewes has a ram lamb next year you can be first in line  We'll deliver! lol


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## dwbonfire (Oct 10, 2012)

Bridgemoof said:
			
		

> Well hey! If one of my ewes has a ram lamb next year you can be first in line  We'll deliver! lol


please do keep me in mind!!   thanks!


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