# Why are Lamancha goats so popular?



## Carla D (Nov 16, 2018)

I have noticed that there are a whole big bunch of people who raise and love their Lamanchas. I’ve thought they were a bit ugly/odd from the pictures I’ve seen on the internet. There’s something about their almost nonexistent ears that doesn’t sit well with me.

I’ve seen a lot of beautiful pictures of members favorite Lamancha goat. There must be something really special about this breed. Besides being a mellow and gentle there has to be a reason they are so popular. I think I might even consider getting a couple minis because I’m reading about all of the love people have for them. Are they as big as Mini Nubians? If I’m going to have some goats that aren’t full/large sized I want either a finer structured medium goat or a small goat. 75 pounds or less if there are any breeds that size.


----------



## Latestarter (Nov 16, 2018)

In my case, I love milk & wanted full sized/standard sized dairy goats for milk, that had high fat content for richness/creaminess, and would produce ~1 gallon a day. Based on what I read/heard/understood as breed generalities; Nubians can be very loud and obnoxious. Alpines can be very pushy and break out artists. Saanans can give up to 2 gallons of milk a day which is twice and more what I need/want/can deal with. In addition, they are all basically one color... white/beige. The northern European breeds like Oberhasli's & Toggenburgs have a (are reported by many to have a) very distinct flavor to the milk that many deem "strong" or "pungent" and not the best tasting (many describe it as "nasty"). Nigerian Dwarfs are just too small and produce too little per goat. In addition, their teets are so small, my old, tired, arthritic hands would play hell trying to milk them.

I chose the Lamancha because it was a breed developed here in America. It has a high butter fat content just below that of the highest butter fat breeds. Their milk is rich and creamy deliciousness.   They are docile, even tempered, and quiet. They produce right at about a gallon of milk per day on average. They come in all color combinations imaginable. And they were available to me where I'm located. I had initially intended to (try to) get a high dairy quality Nigie buck, preferably polled and blue eyed, to produce highly salable Lamancha minis. All three traits are very desirable (blue eyed, polled, minis). Having a smaller animal that eats less, takes up less space, and still produces almost the same amount of milk as a standard sized goat would have also been attractive to buyers. Since my health aint what it once was, and the time to get to where I wanted to be would be multiple years and a lot of $$, I've scaled back many plans. 

The size you describe you're looking for is right about where the Nigie falls. Max on them is generally around 80-90 pounds I believe. A mini could weight anywhere from ~70# to 150. The full sized are typically from ~100-250#+. obviously the largest weights are associated with the males. I don't own Nigies but plenty of folks here do and can provide better info than I on them.


----------



## Carla D (Nov 16, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> In my case, I love milk & wanted full sized/standard sized dairy goats for milk, that had high fat content for richness/creaminess, and would produce ~1 gallon a day. Based on what I read/heard/understood as breed generalities; Nubians can be very loud and obnoxious. Alpines can be very pushy and break out artists. Saanans can give up to 2 gallons of milk a day which is twice and more what I need/want/can deal with. In addition, they are all basically one color... white/beige. The northern European breeds like Oberhasli's & Toggenburgs have a (are reported by many to have a) very distinct flavor to the milk that many deem "strong" or "pungent" and not the best tasting (many describe it as "nasty"). Nigerian Dwarfs are just too small and produce too little per goat. In addition, their teets are so small, my old, tired, arthritic hands would play hell trying to milk them.
> 
> I chose the Lamancha because it was a breed developed here in America. It has a high butter fat content just below that of the highest butter fat breeds. Their milk is rich and creamy deliciousness.   They are docile, even tempered, and quiet. They produce right at about a gallon of milk per day on average. They come in all color combinations imaginable. And they were available to me where I'm located. I had initially intended to (try to) get a high dairy quality Nigie buck, preferably polled and blue eyed, to produce highly salable Lamancha minis. All three traits are very desirable (blue eyed, polled, minis). Having a smaller animal that eats less, takes up less space, and still produces almost the same amount of milk as a standard sized goat would have also been attractive to buyers. Since my health aint what it once was, and the time to get to where I wanted to be would be multiple years and a lot of $$, I've scaled back many plans.
> 
> The size you describe you're looking for is right about where the Nigie falls. Max on them is generally around 80-90 pounds I believe. A mini could weight anywhere from ~70# to 150. The full sized are typically from ~100-250#+. obviously the largest weights are associated with the males. I don't own Nigies but plenty of folks here do and can provide better info than I on them.



This is really good information. The Lamanchas seem to have the even temperament, docile, and gentle is exactly what I’m looking for  as our farm “pets”. I love the look of the Nubian but they are big goats, the mini Nubians are not at all what I think of when I think mini. The ND is about the size I’m looking for. If I could find a breed with all of those qualities would be ideal. It is starting to look like Lamancha minis might be what I’m looking for. While I don’t really have a desire to milk a goat on a daily basis or twice daily, if I had a goat or two that had really great tasting milk I would definitely be persuaded to have a doe or two. A buck would be needed. But I could always sell the babies or eat them. Who knows. I think I’m going to have to do some serious research on the breed. I do however have a question that’s been nagging at me. If minis are the result of a full-size purebred and a Nigerian dwarf how can they be considered a registered breed? They aren’t purebred, right? I’m confused.


----------



## Latestarter (Nov 17, 2018)

You breed a Nigie buck (small) to a standard sized doe to produce minis. If you don't want milk, you can always get wethered minis as there's no market for them. The 1st generation produced from a pure nigie to pure standard is referred to as an f1; it is 50% of each. When you breed an f1 buck to an f1 doe the offspring are f2. You try to select the parents to produce the best representation of the pure standard sized animal.

So if trying for mini-manchas, the key element would be the ears. You would try to breed an f1 buck with "no ears" to an f1 doe with "no ears" (there are actually 2 types of ears on Lamanchas, both are acceptable on a female but only one is acceptable on a buck... long story). The f1 offspring may have the mancha "elf ears" or may have the nigie "airplane ears". When you breed followon generations, you're striving to produce an exact replica of the standard breed, but at smaller size, nearer the nigie. So you have many different breed traits that you have to consider when picking breeding pairs. f2 animals are considered 75% mini whatevers. The third gen is f3s and 87.5% mini. 4th gen is f4 and considered 93.75% mini, 5th gen f5 @ 96.875% and finally gen 6 is f6 @ 98.4375% mini. There are registry rules as to what is considered a "pure" mini which I'll not try to explain, but if everything is as it should be, @ f6, the offspring are considered "pure". f7 and beyond are 99% or higher.  If you breed backwards to add in traits, let's say you breed an f2 buck to an f5 doe, then the offspring are automatically classed at the lower of the 2 so they would be f3, NOT f6. Sometimes breeding back to enhance specific traits is really necessary. 

So, it takes many years and a lot of $$ to produce "registered, pure bred mini whatevers". At a minimum, you're looking at 6 generations, or 6 years. Normally, much longer as you may need to back breed. In addition, you'll need to wait for the offspring to grow to adults to see "what you've got" quality wise. The kids might look perfect but then grow to standard size. Since they are dairy, you need to see what kind of udder the doelings will grow, quality/quantity of milk they produce when they are bred, etc.You'll need to "import genetic diversity" from other mini herds as you don't want to continuously line breed from your own offspring. It's pretty complex.


----------



## Carla D (Nov 17, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> You breed a Nigie buck (small) to a standard sized doe to produce minis. If you don't want milk, you can always get wethered minis as there's no market for them. The 1st generation produced from a pure nigie to pure standard is referred to as an f1; it is 50% of each. When you breed an f1 buck to an f1 doe the offspring are f2. You try to select the parents to produce the best representation of the pure standard sized animal.
> 
> So if trying for mini-manchas, the key element would be the ears. You would try to breed an f1 buck with "no ears" to an f1 doe with "no ears" (there are actually 2 types of ears on Lamanchas, both are acceptable on a female but only one is acceptable on a buck... long story). The f1 offspring may have the mancha "elf ears" or may have the nigie "airplane ears". When you breed followon generations, you're striving to produce an exact replica of the standard breed, but at smaller size, nearer the nigie. So you have many different breed traits that you have to consider when picking breeding pairs. f2 animals are considered 75% mini whatevers. The third gen is f3s and 87.5% mini. 4th gen is f4 and considered 93.75% mini, 5th gen f5 @ 96.875% and finally gen 6 is f6 @ 98.4375% mini. There are registry rules as to what is considered a "pure" mini which I'll not try to explain, but if everything is as it should be, @ f6, the offspring are considered "pure". f7 and beyond are 99% or higher.  If you breed backwards to add in traits, let's say you breed an f2 buck to an f5 doe, then the offspring are automatically classed at the lower of the 2 so they would be f3, NOT f6. Sometimes breeding back to enhance specific traits is really necessary.
> 
> So, it takes many years and a lot of $$ to produce "registered, pure bred mini whatevers". At a minimum, you're looking at 6 generations, or 6 years. Normally, much longer as you may need to back breed. In addition, you'll need to wait for the offspring to grow to adults to see "what you've got" quality wise. The kids might look perfect but then grow to standard size. Since they are dairy, you need to see what kind of udder the doelings will grow, quality/quantity of milk they produce when they are bred, etc.You'll need to "import genetic diversity" from other mini herds as you don't want to continuously line breed from your own offspring. It's pretty complex.



Holy Smokes! That is super complicated. Could a person buy a couple of pure and registered minis and breed them for their own purposes? I’m sure a mating pair is mucko denairo to buy. Is that an option if money was of no issue? Oddly enough I tried to find breeders of Lamanchas or minis Lamanchas and there doesn’t seem to be any listed in either wisc or Minnesota. Not that aren’t at the far side of the state. I’m not a person that feels a pure and registered any type of animal is a nessecity to have. I’m not breeding animals to sell for a huge profit, nor do I wish to have a huge number of any species. Mutts work pretty well for me and my husband. They are cost effective, can still reproduce even though the offspring will continue to be mutts, and it doesn’t seem to make any difference or much difference where eating or pets are concerned. These are things were not too concerned about. An animal doesn’t need to be pure in order to eat them, make them pets, or to sell as run of the mill critters. Maybe I’m odd or am missing something, I don’t know. The mini Lamanchas do seem like the very sort of animal that would work really well as pets, some milk, some meat, etc. I’d have to have them shipped here or drive them in from a long distance if they are the direction we take. It might be more suitable to buy $5-150 disbudded, castrated, nonregistered goats, I don’t know. I’m learning goats are pure fun and joy to be around no matter what breed they are.


----------



## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> o if trying for mini-manchas, the key element would be the ears. You would try to breed an f1 buck with "no ears" to an f1 doe with "no ears" (there are actually 2 types of ears on Lamanchas, both are acceptable on a female but only one is acceptable on a buck... long story). The f1 offspring may have the mancha "elf ears" or may have the nigie "airplane ears". When you breed followon generations, you're striving to produce an exact replica of the standard breed, but at smaller size, nearer the nigie. So you have many different breed traits that you have to consider when picking breeding pairs. f2 animals are considered 75% mini whatevers. The third gen is f3s and 87.5% mini. 4th gen is f4 and considered 93.75% mini, 5th gen f5 @ 96.875% and finally gen 6 is f6 @ 98.4375% mini. There are registry rules as to what is considered a "pure" mini which I'll not try to explain, but if everything is as it should be, @ f6, the offspring are considered "pure". f7 and beyond are 99% or higher. I



As a breeder of miniature lamanchas this is not correct information.
This is not how the % are calculated nor is this how you get to a purebred mini.
% are always calculated by % of sire and dam.  and  the % must be under a certain percentage to qualify as an American or Purebred.
There are 3 ear types, not 2

Size of a mini lamancha doe at a 50/50 % at maturity should be 90-115 lbs. A buck at maturity same %- 90-140 lbs.  Depending on %.
Maturity is 2-3 years


----------



## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2018)

_Why are Lamancha goats so popular?_

Based on the number of animals registered each year with the American Dairy Goat Association, Nigerian Dwarfs are the most popular breed by a *long shot*
Nubians are second, Alpines third and LaManchas are 4th.
In 2017 there were around 17,000 Nigerians registered around 12,000 Nubians but only around 5000 LaManchas.
These are approximate, I was looking at a bar graph.

http://adgagenetics.org/RegistrationTrends.aspx


----------



## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> _Why are Lamancha goats so popular?_
> 
> Based on the number of animals registered each year with the American Dairy Goat Association, Nigerian Dwarfs are the most popular breed by a *long shot*
> Nubians are second, Alpines third and LaManchas are 4th.
> ...



True, however the Lamancha is gaining in popularity. More people are becoming aware of the breed. They will never out number Nubians or Alpines LOL. The Lamancha is a relatively young breed - out of standard goats.
The miniatures are a different registry and different all the way around. In that case there were more mini manchas registered last year than any other mini. Yet Mini Nubians still outnumber all other minis total.
I also think standards are just very much separate from Dwarfs. 
The Nigerian numbers are astounding for many reasons... they are the number one pet goat due to their small size. Second they have extremely large litters thereby having significant numbers recorded. 
Although Lamanchas are my favorite breed Nigerians are awesome goats. Personality wise I liken the Nigerians more to cats and Lamanchas to dogs.
*I think for those wanting pet goats the Nigerian hands down is the ideal goat.* Small size, economical, easy on the land, easy to house etc.  There is an abundance of dwarves.  There are always (like any breed) those they may not cut it in a breeding program but would make wonderful family goats, and pets.


----------



## Latestarter (Nov 17, 2018)

I tried to _simplify the explanation_ yet stay as close to precise/accurate/correct and understandable as possible...This is not the first time you have done this to me.  I don't appreciate it.


Southern by choice said:


> This is not how the % are calculated nor is this how you get to a purebred mini.


 
"The 1st generation produced from a pure nigie to pure standard is referred to as an f1; it is 50% of each. *(This is an absolute.)* When you breed an f1 buck (would have to be 50/50 by definition) to an f1 doe (would again have to be 50/50 by definition) the offspring are f2." _Is this incorrect?_

"f2 animals are considered 75% mini whatevers." I said "whatevers" because it could be 75% nigie as easily as 75% lamancha or any percentage in between for either. Were this a masters or doctoral thesis, the statement would be incorrect as it could be anything from 50/50 to some other percentage in either breed direction based on the actual amount of each breed genes that were passed to the offspring. Without doing an actual DNA/genetic evaluation, you can't possibly know the real percentage of each breed in the f2 and beyond offspring. My statement was _based on an ideal/perfect split being passed on_ for the mini breed you are trying for. This being the case, my mathematical percentages are correct for "registry purposes". In "real life" you breed for expected/unique breed characteristics of each breed and the registry standards for each breed and which breed you are trying to recreate in miniature form.  _Is this incorrect?_

"The third gen is f3s and 87.5% mini. 4th gen is f4 and considered 93.75% mini, 5th gen f5 @ 96.875% and finally gen 6 is f6 @ 98.4375% mini."  This is the goal and mathematically correct. The true/ideal percentages are what I posted. (The actual/real percentages can't be known without genetic testing) And once again, not explained at a masters or doctoral thesis level.

I also stated "Normally, much longer as you may need to back breed."  The reason being to add back in a higher percentage of the standard breed genes if your F# minis are leaning more toward the nigie side than the standard breed you're trying to produce. Obviously this will skew the percentages from what I stated previously.  _Is this incorrect?_



Southern by choice said:


> % are always calculated by % of sire and dam (exactly as I stated ). and the % must be under a certain percentage to qualify as an American or Purebred.


"There are registry rules as to what is considered a "pure" mini which I'll not try to explain, but if everything is as it should be, @ f6, the offspring are considered "pure". f7 and beyond are 99% or higher."  Stating something needs to be "UNDER" a certain percentage of one is mathematically the same as stating that is must be OVER a percentage of the other. I clearly stated that there are registry rules and that I would not try to explain them. Once again, based on the ENTIRETY of my post vice taking a sentence or two out of context, _Is this incorrect?_



Southern by choice said:


> There are 3 ear types, not 2


On goats in general, there are more than 3 ear types/shapes. On Lamancha goats there are TWO ear types acceptable... "elf" or "gopher"  https://articles.extension.org/pages/19274/goat-breeds-lamancha    Only the gopher ear is acceptable on a buck for registration purposes  _Is this incorrect?
_


Southern by choice said:


> Size of a mini lamancha doe at a 50/50 % at maturity _should be (<--Emphasis added by me)_ 90-115 lbs. A buck at maturity same %- 90-140 lbs. Depending on %. Maturity is 2-3 years



"A mini _could weigh_ _(<--Emphasis added by me)_ anywhere from ~70# to 150. The full sized are typically from ~100-250#+. obviously the largest weights are associated with the males."  _Is this incorrect?_   Thank you for providing some more narrowed down/specific mini weight details from a breeder's perspective.

Carla D, your last post is right on the money. You don't need expensive, registered goats for normal, everyday life. Mutts are just fine for any and all applications save one. Mutts can't be used to show, in breed specific shows. That being said, and before I get jumped on once again, that isn't entirely true either. "Mutts" CAN be "registered" as "experimental" or "grade" with some registries as long as the sire is/was a registered animal, or can be tracked back to one. Again, it's rather convoluted and I don't feel like going to in depth on that explanation either. If it's that important to you, you can research it for exact/specific details with the applicable registry.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2018)

Southern by choice said:


> True, however the Lamancha is gaining in popularity. More people are becoming aware of the breed. They will never out number Nubians or Alpines LOL. The Lamancha is a relatively young breed - out of standard goats.
> The miniatures are a different registry and different all the way around. In that case there were more mini manchas registered last year than any other mini. Yet Mini Nubians still outnumber all other minis total.
> I also think standards are just very much separate from Dwarfs.
> The Nigerian numbers are astounding for many reasons... they are the number one pet goat due to their small size. Second they have extremely large litters thereby having significant numbers recorded.
> ...



It can be for whatever reason you want it to be
Nigerians are by far the most popular dairy goat 
Lamanchas aren't even close to being 2nd most popular 
My comment was in response to the question asked by OP


----------



## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

@Latestarter  because I work with the registry and there is a great deal of misinformation it is important to try to clarify.  Not trying to be a butthead.  Unfortunately many that are getting involved with minis do get bad info and get angry when they try to register animals based on what then think vs the actual rules. 

Other registries as in Kiko, ADGA , Boers do. with the percentages going up til Purebred. The mini registry does not. Because you are not advancing to eliminate a breed.
Now that would apply to my Recorded grade Lamancha... to get her to american or pb in ADGA I have to keep breeding her to a Lamancha. 

You are correct GENERALLY most 1st gens are A standard  to a dwarf. This always gives 50/50% as well as all goats will have elf ears. No other probability.
% is always calculated using the percentages of sire and dam.  To be qualified for Americana or Purebred status the goat must be under 70% of the standard breed and also must qualify by breed character. For the Mini Lamancha that means all bucks must be under the appropriate % as well as have true Gopher ears and the height standard set. Does qualify by % , gopher or elf ears- however elf ears must be under a certain length, and of course must remain under the maximum height standard.
After acheiving The PB staus which cannot be before f-6 the gens do not count higher... IOW no f-7, f-8 or anything like that - although some show that because maybe they are trying  to show it is two generations into purebreds status

This year I have several breedings that will be 1st generation however they will be 75/25
The dam is 100% a standard  bred to a mini buck  he is 50/50. offspring will be 1st gen 75/25 ear *probability* for this particular mating will be 50/50 gopher/elf
Anytime you breed to a standard or dwarf regardless of 1 parents gen all will be 1st gen.
So, you could have bred 2,3,4,5 generations and still be at an F-1 the percentage will vary.


I personally like the percentage to be as close to 50/50 as possible but sometimes you need to go higher on the standard side then breed back to bring % down.
Breeeding and F-1 50/50 to an F-1 50/50 will give f-2 50/50.

So now lets take my f-2 50/50... hmmm, I want to bring in more breed character and improve ears. I decide to breed to a 1st gen 75/25.  I now have a F-2 62.5/37.5  the ids from these will still be 2nd gen. Experimental.  
Generation is always 1 generation up from the lowest (Standards and dwarfs are 0)
Percentage is calculated by both parents
American must quailify as 3rd gen  (even though you may have 5 generations) not be over 70% have correct breed trait/characteristics, and be within height standard.
Purebred 6th generation and all the above.

Most people that have minis never go past the first or 2nd gen.  It is a lot of work to do a breeding program. 



Latestarter said:


> On goats in general, there are more than 3 ear types/shapes. On Lamancha goats there are TWO ear types acceptable... "elf" or "gopher" https://articles.extension.org/pages/19274/goat-breeds-lamancha Only the gopher ear is acceptable on a buck for registration purposes _Is this incorrect?_


Lamancha yes, Miniatures, there are 3.
Because of the breeding of the dwarf which is erect eared you have that gene... when breeding the different ear types you will have probabilty. An elf eared x elf eared can give you erect, elf, gopher. Hence the 3 types. Any erect eared regardless of gen will remain experimental. Bucks with elf as well.

If I breed an f-2 Experimental (elf eared) to an f-2 (experimental erect ear)  I will have 50/50 probability elf/erect , no possibility for gopher.
The kids that have erect ears will just be F-3 but remain Experimental (because they don't meet the breed standard) the kids that have elf---- only does will be F-3 American... so no bucks will qualify for American status but will be registered as f-3 experimental as well.

I know it all sound confusing but it really isn't.  
My plan is to take my 75/25's from this year and breed to my 50/50 bucks  for next year. This will give me that 62.5/37.5   and hopefully lock in some traits I want. I personally care less about generations. In the end I will end up with alot of of 2nd gen gopher eared 62.5/37.5 %.. this is good because then all the gens from those will be 3rd gen Ameriacn and will all qualify. Although I do prefer still the 55/45 range for size. 

I have an ear chart on one of my mini threads. It gives all the probabilities.

There are also people that don't want to do a program and like the mini mancha just hate the ears, they love the 2nd gen erect eared minis.

Airplane ears are with mini nubians. 

Gosh, why do I do this again? 



@OneFineAcre  I was agreeing with you.


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Nov 17, 2018)

I'm  so confused.....


----------



## Carla D (Nov 17, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> _Why are Lamancha goats so popular?_
> 
> Based on the number of animals registered each year with the American Dairy Goat Association, Nigerian Dwarfs are the most popular breed by a *long shot*
> Nubians are second, Alpines third and LaManchas are 4th.
> ...


This was an interesting website. Some breeds have definitely grown in popularity over time and some have significantly declined as well. I need to figure out what the abbreviations on the graph mean to totally understand the trends. But I do like the charts.

I also didn’t mean to ask a question that would cause contention between a few members in here. I was only trying to figure out how the offspring between two different breeds could possibly wear the title of pure or registered. It didn’t make sense to me. It kinda seemed to me that it was like mating a Maine Coon cat with a Siamese cat and getting a Siamaine and it being pure. It didn’t add up to me. But from what I’ve gathered through these explainations is that with a lot of time and money you are creating a designer breed that has become so popular that it has become “desired or much sought after” animal that due to popularity it has become a “registered and accepted designer breed”. And then each breeder is creating their version of perfection. That the creation of such matings  that these two breeders have breed are “different strains or kissing cousins”. Am I kinda getting it?


----------



## Carla D (Nov 17, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> I'm  so confused.....


Me too. I guess it is a common layman’s question that actually has a very complex answer. I’m a bit to layman to understand the answer. To me they will never really be “pure” but a “designer”. I do however understand the percentages. A 1:1=50/50, a 50/50:1=75/25?


----------



## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

B&B Happy goats said:


> I'm  so confused.....



I know right!
I was looking for a chart that is an easy guide to generations. 
I have an probability chart on here some where.
Of course that is just part of the "rules" LOL


You should see the pages of info on the registry. IMO it does need to be simplified. LOL



Carla D said:


> Me too. I guess it is a common layman’s question that actually has a very complex answer. I’m a bit to layman to understand the answer. To me they will never really be “pure” but a “designer”. I do however understand the percentages. A 1:1=50/50, a 50/50:1=75/25?



50/50 to a 50/50 is a 50/50
a 75/25 to a 50/50 is 62.5/37.5
a 62.5/37.5 to a 50/50 is 56.25/43.75

The Standard percentage is always listed first, dwarf second.
So lets say I have a 56.25/43.75 but don't have a mini buck so I use a dwarf... the percentage is 56.25/43.75(mini) bred to a  0/100 (dwarf) that gives me= 28.12 /71.88  

When the standard size shrinks below the 50% it is really difficult to breed back to a mini because the size.


So the standard % is added together divided by 2 & the dwarf % is added together and divided by 2. This gives you your percentage.


----------



## B&B Happy goats (Nov 17, 2018)

Honestly,  i plan to keeping it simple for myself .... just going to stick with my kids @ 1 buck & 1 doe = happy nigerian dwarf goat momma


----------



## OneFineAcre (Nov 17, 2018)

Carla D said:


> This was an interesting website. Some breeds have definitely grown in popularity over time and some have significantly declined as well. I need to figure out what the abbreviations on the graph mean to totally understand the trends. But I do like the charts.
> 
> I also didn’t mean to ask a question that would cause contention between a few members in here. I was only trying to figure out how the offspring between two different breeds could possibly wear the title of pure or registered. It didn’t make sense to me. It kinda seemed to me that it was like mating a Maine Coon cat with a Siamese cat and getting a Siamaine and it being pure. It didn’t add up to me. But from what I’ve gathered through these explainations is that with a lot of time and money you are creating a designer breed that has become so popular that it has become “desired or much sought after” animal that due to popularity it has become a “registered and accepted designer breed”. And then each breeder is creating their version of perfection. That the creation of such matings  that these two breeders have breed are “different strains or kissing cousins”. Am I kinda getting it?



The abbreviations are Purebred, American, and Recorded Grade
The ADGA does not register the "mini's"

Nigerian Dwarf is a Purebred only herd book


----------



## Carla D (Nov 17, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> The abbreviations are Purebred, American, and Recorded Grade
> The ADGA does not register the "mini's"
> 
> Nigerian Dwarf is a Purebred only herd book


Thank you..


----------



## Southern by choice (Nov 17, 2018)

Carla D said:


> But from what I’ve gathered through these explainations is that with a lot of time and money you are creating a designer breed that has become so popular that it has become “desired or much sought after” animal that due to popularity it has become a “registered and accepted designer breed”. And then each breeder is creating their version of perfection. That the creation of such matings that these two breeders have breed are “different strains or kissing cousins”. Am I kinda getting it?



Not exactly a designer breed. The Miniature Dairy Goat Asssociation was established in 1996.
The motivation was to have simply a smaller version of the Standard Breed. Many loved the personalities and production of the Larger goats just not the size. The use of the dwarf brings the size down.
Basically that high production and basic breed character in a smaller package. The Dwarf for many just cannot produce enough and for many is just too small.
The dwarf however doesn't just contribute to bring size down it brings with it that undeniable hardiness and easy keeping, as well as that higher butterfat. They really are a critical part of the minis.
I think far too many overlook the importance of the Dwarf in the breeding program. 

In the AGS (the registry that accepted the ND's originally) and the ADGA have closed herdbooks so no crosses allowed. That was the agreement  to admitting the Nigerian Dwarf into the ADGA registry.
Whereas in the ADGA other standard breeds can be crossed and are called experimentals, some are recorded grades depending on pedigree.  You can breed an registered Alpine to a Registered Lamancha  and they will be Recorded Grade/Experimentals. That cross would be a 50/50... if you continue to breed to the Lamancha the percentage will go up... that is what @Latestarter  was referring to. That doesn't apply to minis, but does apply to the ADGA registry. Sometimes people want to bring in certain genetics or traits etc. This is just not allowed with Nigerians in that registry.
So it is isn't any different, not designer just breeding goats. The Lamancha was developed by many breeds. 

This is why there are complete separate registries for Minis. 
22 years later there are lots of minis out there, yet there are only a small percentage that breed for improvement and a breeding program, just like the other registries. 
The MDGA has programs for milkstars, has breed requirements, and is currently working on an evaluation program similar to linear appraisal program. They also have live shows and virtual shows.

Typically the mini nubians are more costly for a very well bred animal, and even a not so well bred animal. The lower generations usually less expensive because most want that floppy ear that is in later gens.
The mini manchas are the 2nd in numbers - IMO they really aren't that expensive. A doe depending on quality can range from $200-$400. Bucks are anywhere from $150- $400 depending on quality , gen, and other factors.


----------



## rachels.haven (Nov 22, 2018)

*gasp!* Wait, I feel the need to say this:
Lamanchas ugly? I think they're beautiful, and I think they think so too! They would be outraged if they could read this (insert image of googly eyed goat getting on the internet). They were my breed of choice and I would have gotten them instead of dwarfs were it not for the fact that our acre is in town and our neighbors were convinced that our goats would walk on their precious, barely ever used Ford trucks (we're by Dearborn and Detroit). It was a lot easier to convince people that the goats would not escape and threaten their precious, spotless F250 commuter truck if the goats were under two feet tall (our goats still have not escaped yet) BUT I still think Lamanchas are quite pretty and plan to add at least one someday.

 All goats are goofy. I am not convinced their eyes always point in the same direction and they're always finding new ways to get into goofy trouble, it seems like one end is always belching for passing wind and pebbles and peeing WHILE they're still being so loveable and freaking cuddly. Ears vs. tiny or no ears doesn't make a lot of difference, but the lack does draw attention to their beautiful long dairy necks and stunning eyes. Who needs ears anyway?

But hey, I'm not really offended. I'd rather go outside and play with my goats.

(EXCEPT I'M ON VACATION AND AWAY FROM MY GOATS AND THE NEIGHBOR GETS TO LOVE ON THEM INSTEAD. )


----------



## Carla D (Nov 22, 2018)

rachels.haven said:


> *gasp!* Wait, I feel the need to say this:
> Lamanchas ugly? I think they're beautiful, and I think they think so too! They would be outraged if they could read this (insert image of googly eyed goat getting on the internet). They were my breed of choice and I would have gotten them instead of dwarfs were it not for the fact that our acre is in town and our neighbors were convinced that our goats would walk on their precious, barely ever used Ford trucks (we're by Dearborn and Detroit). It was a lot easier to convince people that the goats would not escape and threaten their precious, spotless F250 commuter truck if the goats were under two feet tall (our goats still have not escaped yet) BUT I still think Lamanchas are quite pretty and plan to add at least one someday.
> 
> All goats are goofy. I am not convinced their eyes always point in the same direction and they're always finding new ways to get into goofy trouble, it seems like one end is always belching for passing wind and pebbles and peeing WHILE they're still being so loveable and freaking cuddly. Ears vs. tiny or no ears doesn't make a lot of difference, but the lack does draw attention to their beautiful long dairy necks and stunning eyes. Who needs ears anyway?
> ...


Lamanchas are kinda like the greyhound of goats. Their new outward appearance doesn’t catch your eyes right away. But once you’ve been exposed to them and their love you’re hooked. I like ears. The bigger and floppier they are the better, on dogs and goats, not men and children though.


----------



## rachels.haven (Nov 22, 2018)

Heheeheh, floppy eared men. Thanks for the image.  
I'm sure my husband would make floppy ears look good, but the current status quo is what I prefer as well. 
...Lamancha ears might look okay though...they're kind of cute.


----------

