# Girls are going on a date!



## Genipher (Nov 18, 2021)

Taking my 2 Nigerian Dwarf does to be, hopefully, bred tomorrow. Lady I bought them from earlier this year said I could bring them back for rebreeding if they weren't prego. Well, they weren't.

However, I'm worried this attempt won't be successful because I can't tell when these girls are in heat. They don't get loud or wag their tails, they don't mount each other or have any discharge. So I'm skeptical that they'll be accepting of their date's advances tomorrow, much less become pregnant. And I kinda get the impression this is the only "freebie" the previous owner will give. Like, "Hey, we tried. I kept my word. Tough luck if it doesn't pan out."

I guess what I'm wondering...since I've never done this before and feel utterly clueless...is, can they still get pregnant if they're not actively in heat? Should I push for another try if they don't cooperate? How many attempted breeding would you give if you promised pregnant does and it turned out they weren't? I don't want to keep bugging this lady about this and annoy her...I was kinda embarrassed to ask her for this breeding to begin with.

Any advice for tomorrow?


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## Mini Horses (Nov 19, 2021)

If not cycling, will she keep them until?   Cause not gonna happen otherwise.  Maybe you could get a buck rag.....take them back when ready.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 19, 2021)

What pretty girls!

No, they will not get breed if they are not in heat.  Sometimes does will not show signs of heat when a buck isn't around.  I agree, a buck rag would be very helpful to tell when they are in heat, then bring them to the buck for a date.  If you don't own your own buck (or can't tell when your does are in heat), it actually seems the easiest to keep your does at the bucks' house for a month.  Or maybe you could talk the lady into letting you keep the buck for a month.  Stud service really is a hassle!  I just bought a buck this summer because of how crazy things get!  Another option would be to buy a buck, keep him for a month (or two) then sell him once your girls are bred.

If I promised someone a pregnant doe, I would not care how many times they had to bring them back to get bred, unless of course we've tried like many, many times, then I would assume an issues with the doe or buck.  But if it's only your second time bring them back and she promised you them to be pregnant, I wouldn't feel bad.

Hope this helps and best wishes!


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

Mini Horses said:


> If not cycling, will she keep them until?   Cause not gonna happen otherwise.  Maybe you could get a buck rag.....take them back when ready.


I'm not sure if she'd keep them until they went into heat. I thought I might ask when we go over but at the same time I feel really awkward about asking. 😬


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> What pretty girls!
> 
> No, they will not get breed if they are not in heat.  Sometimes does will not show signs of heat when a buck isn't around.  I agree, a buck rag would be very helpful to tell when they are in heat, then bring them to the buck for a date.  If you don't own your own buck (or can't tell when your does are in heat), it actually seems the easiest to keep your does at the bucks' house for a month.  Or maybe you could talk the lady into letting you keep the buck for a month.  Stud service really is a hassle!  I just bought a buck this summer because of how crazy things get!  Another option would be to buy a buck, keep him for a month (or two) then sell him once your girls are bred.
> 
> ...


It was difficult just arranging this one day, I'm not sure if the previous owner would be available if I was to pinpoint their heat with a buck rag. Sounds like I'm making excuses, sigh, but it's hard to get a reading on this lady. I just get the feeling I'm kinda a nuisance but that could just be me, feeling insecure.

So if I take an old washcloth, that could be my buck rag? Keep it in a zip lock bag to hold in the smell?

Yeah, I want to just get our own buck but we're in town (1/3 acre) and I'm not sure if the buck stink would bother the neighbors. I'd resell him after breeding, if he became a neighbor problem, but bucks don't seem to sell very fast here on the Oregon coast. There is a younger buck on Craigslist that I've been eyeballing. 7 or 8 months old. I've read they're not AS stinky when they're younger so maybe I could get away with it?


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## Mini Horses (Nov 19, 2021)

As a seller, if I sold a guaranteed bred that wasn't, I'd have NO issue making it happen.
Most of my goats are sold as open but, for years I sold mini horses.  Those logistics were far different with travel, time, care but, made it happen if needed!  

Goats are much easier.  And I'd re-bred as needed if one turned up open.  She should, or lend a buck!


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

I'm gonna try to take them over (leaving in a few) but I hate the idea of unnecessary stressing them out. Hoping the lady will let them spend a night or two or three...


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 19, 2021)

Genipher said:


> It was difficult just arranging this one day, I'm not sure if the previous owner would be available if I was to pinpoint their heat with a buck rag. Sounds like I'm making excuses, sigh, but it's hard to get a reading on this lady. I just get the feeling I'm kinda a nuisance but that could just be me, feeling insecure.


That's a bummer.  Maybe you could just get a refund since your does are not actually bred and try breeding them to a different buck?  Sorry she's hard to deal with.


Genipher said:


> So if I take an old washcloth, that could be my buck rag? Keep it in a zip lock bag to hold in the smell?


Yes, rub an old washcloth on the buck, their front legs, and head seem to be the smelliest places.  I would put in two bags (or a in a bag and put the bag in a jar) just to make sure the smell doesn't leak out.


Genipher said:


> Yeah, I want to just get our own buck but we're in town (1/3 acre) and I'm not sure if the buck stink would bother the neighbors. I'd resell him after breeding, if he became a neighbor problem, but bucks don't seem to sell very fast here on the Oregon coast. There is a younger buck on Craigslist that I've been eyeballing. 7 or 8 months old. I've read they're not AS stinky when they're younger so maybe I could get away with it?


Yeah, it might not be the best idea to get a buck since you live in town - bummer.  If you can't get your does bred to the lady's buck I'd definitely get the buck on CL!  At that age, they really don't smell bad at all - it (usually) takes a couple years for them to mature and get really stinky.  He is also the perfect age for breeding.  My 4 month old ND buck is currently breeding my girls.  If you do get and use him, you could try selling him at a lower price than what you bought him for.  It would be like the same as paying a stud fee for a different buck - make sense?


Genipher said:


> I'm gonna try to take them over (leaving in a few) but I hate the idea of unnecessary stressing them out. Hoping the lady will let them spend a night or two or three...


Hope it works out this time!


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## Alaskan (Nov 19, 2021)

Genipher said:


> can they still get pregnant if they're not actively in heat?


Nope



Genipher said:


> I'm not sure if she'd keep them until they went into heat. I thought I might ask when we go over but at the same time I feel really awkward about asking. 😬


Ask her anyway.  Sorry...  if she said they were bred, she should hold them until they are bred.

The problem with the CL male is how do you know he is disease free?

And YES,  this lady is being a pill. 

But...  getting the girls bred shouldn't be this hard.   The buck rag should help with getting them to show heat.

My Saanen was hard to tell when she was in heat.  I found someone that took her for a month, penned her with the buck the entire time.


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

Well, they were definitely not in heat.

First time ever smelling buck. He wasn't too bad until we got up close. I was expecting the whole yard to reek.

The lady was actually a lot more pleasant to chat with than I remembered, so that part went well.

Not sure if I made a mistake but...she had a 1 year old Nigerian buck she said I could have for $75 so after calling my husband and getting his thoughts, I bought him. She said if he didn't work out I could return him so I guess it's like we're paying a stud fee (unless we decide to keep him).

He stunk up my van pretty good. Got home and cleaned it out and sprayed it with a deodorizer but...not sure how effective it'll be. I don't want to EVER transport him in my car again! 

His smell isn't TOO bad (when not cooped up in a vehicle!) but I'm paranoid that everyone will smell it and complain. Or that my husband will get irritated and complain (though his sniffer isn't as good as mine and he rarely goes outside). And I'm not sure if it's psychosomatic or what, but even after taking a shower I keep thinking I smell buck.

Other issue is, the kids let the dogs out after I EXPRESSLY said NOT to, while I ran to the feed store for grass hay. The buck, who HAD been a little timid but was starting to explore the yard, is now scared and keeps hiding. sigh.

On a positive note, my husband is FINALLY  finishing up the fenced area for the goats today, so they won't be able to pee on my porch or knock down our firewood anymore! Buck will also be safe from the dogs.

So, I'm feeling a bit...anxious ...about the new fella but hoping things will adjust and he'll end up being a good decision.


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## Alaskan (Nov 19, 2021)

Genipher said:


> I don't want to EVER transport him in my car again!


Try vinegar. 


Excellent price for a stud fee.  Keep him until you KNOW he has "done the job" then sell or return him.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 19, 2021)

Wow, $75 for a buck is a stellar price (for around here anyways)!  Can we get a pic of him, please?

Yep, when confined in small places (like a van), their smell can get pretty gross.  I don't/won't ever transport bucks in our van.  Yuck!  Yes, vinegar might help.

And no you're not crazy, it's hard to get buck smell off of you.  It takes lots of soap and scrubbing.  I try to handle my boys only when needed.

Just give him some time.  He's in a completely new place and needs a little time to adjust - I know he'll come around soon, especially with your does.

I agree, make SURE they are bred before getting rid of him (if you ever do).  If you haven't already, look up how to tell if a doe has been bred successfully - just because he's mounting doesn't mean he's done the deed.  Even after you're sure he did the deed, don't get rid of him quite yet, does_ can_ "short cycle" and come into heat around 5-7 days AFTER you saw a successful breeding and will need to be bred again - for some odd reason, lots of people are having that problem this year.  Some does might not take in their first heat either so they'll come into heat again (about three weeks later).  I would keep the buck for at least a month if not two to be really safe.  When you decide to sell him, make sure your does are done coming into heat, and they are no longer interested in him.

Hope this works out for you!


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

Here he is. Fella has scurs we'll need to keep an eye on and I just realized he has blue eyes.




Husband came home and said, "Yup. I can smell him."
But after spending a few hours inside and going back out, I can't. Just smells like normal goat to me.


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> Try vinegar.
> 
> 
> Excellent price for a stud fee.  Keep him until you KNOW he has "done the job" then sell or return him.


Like vinegar in a spray bottle?
I'll try that tomorrow. 😊


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## Genipher (Nov 19, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> Wow, $75 for a buck is a stellar price (for around here anyways)!  Can we get a pic of him, please?
> 
> Yep, when confined in small places (like a van), their smell can get pretty gross.  I don't/won't ever transport bucks in our van.  Yuck!  Yes, vinegar might help.
> 
> ...


We really need a truck! Then transports like these won't be so 🤢

Thank you for the advice. I figure we'll at least keep him a few months, just to make sure he's done the job, and then evaluate from there.

I tried giving him an apple slice as, you know, a peace offering but he tried to head butt it and I had to tell him "No!". Gonna have to research how to properly train a buck.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 19, 2021)

Wowsers!  He's one handsome dude! 😍

Yes!!  We both need a truck!  Transporting hay in a van is a big pain too!

You're welcome!  Sounds like a good plan!

Oh boys....why can't they just be nice! 🙄  I have a yearling ND buck who always butts me when I'm keeping him away from my younger buck while he finishes up his grain.  The past few days I've been flipping him over and pinning him on the ground (on his back) for about five mins or until he fully relaxes and "surrenders" to me.  It might sound kind of harsh, but I know lots of others do it as well.  Bucks need to realize that WE are THEIR BOSS - not the other way around.  He's actually been better at not butting me the past few days since I've been flipping and pinning him when he butts or shows any aggression to me.  I also know a lot of people will carry a squirt gun (or a spray bottle) with them when around their bucks.  If the buck shows any sign he is going to butt them or be mean, he'll get sprayed and yelled a stern "No!" so he realizes we don't tolerate that kind of behavior.

Here's a thread on The Goat Spot that might be helpful to you! https://www.thegoatspot.net/threads/wether-rearing-up-at-people.223590/#post-2566220 I would also recommend joining there - everyone is incredibly kind, helpful and knowledgeable.  I myself am a member there and really enjoy connecting with other goat lovers!

Good luck with your new boy!


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## Alaskan (Nov 20, 2021)

Genipher said:


> Like vinegar in a spray bottle?
> I'll try that tomorrow. 😊


Yes, exactly


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## messybun (Nov 20, 2021)

My buck used to pee on me. I learned conditioner was my friend, for some reason it really helps! It will get it out of your hair and it will help get it off your skin too. Honestly can’t remember which one , something cheap because you’ll need a decent amount. Most people didn’t even know I had a buck. 
By the way, he’s super pretty!


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## Mini Horses (Nov 20, 2021)

Pretty boy and love the blue eyes.   Yes, boys will be boys....not always good.  The smell won't be as bad in winter but just wait!  🤣😱.  Gets worse.   Flipping works for many of those prone to aggression.   For me, won't happen!   My Nubian is  couple hundred pounds of delight.   But he was raised from a baby to be tame, by a woman, so super friendly and well mannered for a buck.   That said, rut season makes him push right on by you to the prize!     

Consider if you DO keep him, you might want a separate pen....especially if you want to milk the girls.


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## animalmom (Nov 20, 2021)

Borax is excellent for getting the buck smell out of fabric/clothes.  My boys love to lean on me which makes my pants smell oh so nice.  I just toss the pants in with the rest of the work clothes, add detergent and 1/2 C borax.


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## Baymule (Nov 21, 2021)

My ram doesn’t stink….. jus’ saying LOL
😂😂


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## messybun (Nov 21, 2021)

Baymule said:


> My ram doesn’t stink….. jus’ saying LOL
> 😂😂


I know I know, you have an amazing ram to brag about while we all suffer through buck stank. It’s ok...you just enjoy not smelling like a skunk over there whilst we scrub our skin off😂😂. Seriously though, I’ve read about Ringo and you’ve got something great with him.


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## Baymule (Nov 21, 2021)

I have a chair in that pasture up against the round hay bale cow panel "hay ring". I sit in it after feeding to give Sentry and Sheba some hugs. Ringo always comes for his share and lays his head in my lap. He is one in a million.


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## Genipher (Nov 21, 2021)

Baymule said:


> My ram doesn’t stink….. jus’ saying LOL
> 😂😂


I was actually debating trading the goats for milk sheep but...we'll see how this goes, first. 😉😁


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## BarnOwl (Nov 22, 2021)

What a handsome fella! Let us know how it goes and how you like having a buck.

I'm in a similar situation. I only have three does. They're still too young to breed, but I feel like I have to figure out what we're going to do soon-ish. Not sure I want to own a buck for our first breeding attempt; but, so far none of the local breeders I've contacted are willing to offer stud service, so we'll probably have to buy a buck(s).

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has goats and no truck.  I'll never get all the hay out of my SUV. hah.


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## Baymule (Nov 22, 2021)

Genipher said:


> I was actually debating trading the goats for milk sheep but...we'll see how this goes, first. 😉😁


Rams can be awfully mean too. Some of them just want to break your legs. That's what makes Ringo so special. The Katahdin breed is generally calm.


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## Baymule (Nov 22, 2021)

BarnOwl said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who has goats and no truck.  I'll never get all the hay out of my SUV. hah.


I always treated my cars like trucks. Even though my husband had a truck, there were rainy days, so I used my car. I had a 2003 Ford Focus wagon that I treated terrible. It had rails on the roof that would hold 3 hay bales. LOL LOL Then I had a 2007 Dodge Caliber and it had LOTS of room in the back. It was a great little SUV. Now I still have my husband's truck, and I have a 2008 Buick Lucerne with leather seats, it's a nice car. It was my Mom's and I can't make myself abuse it, I treat it nice.


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## Alaskan (Nov 22, 2021)

BarnOwl said:


> so far none of the local breeders I've contacted are willing to offer stud service


Even if you disease test your does?


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## BarnOwl (Nov 23, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> Even if you disease test your does?


I haven't asked around extensively since my does won't even be year old until March/April, but so far my top choices have said no even with testing. I'd like to find a breeder that focuses on dairy production, but I may have to look for less established breeders or just buy a buck like the OP did.


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## Baymule (Nov 23, 2021)

Buy a young buck, use him for breeding, then put him in the freezer.


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## Alaskan (Nov 23, 2021)

Baymule said:


> Buy a young buck, use him for breeding, then put him in the freezer.


Get a disease free one


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 23, 2021)

How's the new guy settling in, @Genipher ?


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## rachels.haven (Nov 24, 2021)

...or get two bucks and use one to cover your originals and one to cover the offspring you unavoidably keep...and then you need another and another and another of the next breed you "try" et c.

When my little guys get lippy I pick them up and carry them around while I do chores. It really freaks out the adult nigerian bucks. That tends to end it for a month or two, even the over bred ones with stuffing for brains.  I have several bucks that either outweigh me or will outweigh me and I MUST be able to walk in the pen when I want or need to and goats learn by example, so I turn those overly macho pint size doe addicts into purse bucks. (Their little legs in the air paddling around their roundy tummies not going anywhere for all the other bucks to see and quake in their little and big hooves while I fill water buckets with their buddy under one arm...) No butting or head rubbing allowed. No sass. (and I'm not that big or tall, they are just small)

But I like my bucks. They are overall less temperamental than the does and like eachother more. However, I had some that pulled hair or tried to pee on me through the fence. Those got sold. "Peeing" on them back through the fence with a garden hose only went so far and I didn't want to do it on a weekly basis. The biter...well, nothing worked so I was fixing to eat him, but someone else wanted him.

All that said you may have no issue with your buck. Some of them just know naturally where to draw the line. Keep those guys. I have one Nigerian right now who is like that, and three standard bucks who also know how to be respectful. Of my current six (three Nigerians, 3 standards) two of the nigerians are either head rubbers/butters or tried to jump me once so they both got "the treatment" and don't seem to keen on doing it again.


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## Genipher (Nov 24, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> How's the new guy settling in, @Genipher ?


He's getting less skittish. This morning when I went to feed everyone, he didn't run off when I got close. In fact, I had to gently nudge him out of the way and he didn't mind me touching him.

I am having an issue, though, with hay. My does and the buck aren't eating the grass hay. In the past I got the girls alfalfa hay and it basically molded in the hay Manger because they refused to eat it. Now I have fresh grass hay and none of them will touch it. Is that normal??


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## rachels.haven (Nov 24, 2021)

How much grain are they getting? Are they eating grass or bushes instead?


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 25, 2021)

Genipher said:


> He's getting less skittish. This morning when I went to feed everyone, he didn't run off when I got close. In fact, I had to gently nudge him out of the way and he didn't mind me touching him.
> 
> I am having an issue, though, with hay. My does and the buck aren't eating the grass hay. In the past I got the girls alfalfa hay and it basically molded in the hay Manger because they refused to eat it. Now I have fresh grass hay and none of them will touch it. Is that normal??


That's good to hear he's getting friendlier!

About the hay.......I find it strange that they didn't like the alfalfa - most goats LOVE it.  Goats are pretty picky when it comes to food though. What cutting is the grass hay?  Is it soft (not too stemy/coarse)?  Does it smell sweet and fresh (if bailed and stored right - it should smell very good)?  Or is it musty smelling?  Is it mostly green/light green in color?  Do you know what kind(s) of grasses are in  it?  A picture may be helpful as well to see if it's good hay.


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## Genipher (Nov 25, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> That's good to hear he's getting friendlier!
> 
> About the hay.......I find it strange that they didn't like the alfalfa - most goats LOVE it.  Goats are pretty picky when it comes to food though. What cutting is the grass hay?  Is it soft (not too stemy/coarse)?  Does it smell sweet and fresh (if bailed and stored right - it should smell very good)?  Or is it musty smelling?  Is it mostly green/light green in color?  Do you know what kind(s) of grasses are in  it?  A picture may be helpful as well to see if it's good hay.


I'll try to get a picture. It's not green. Seems soft to me. Just a basic grass hay from the feed store. 🤷‍♀️


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## Genipher (Nov 25, 2021)

rachels.haven said:


> How much grain are they getting? Are they eating grass or bushes instead?


Weelll...they do get alfalfa pellets. I got that back when I noticed the girls weren't eating hay.
I also feed them COB, cracked corn, BOSS, and occasionally whole oatmeal.  Though now that I've got the buck, I was thinking of getting regular goat feed because I'm pretty sure the buck is not supposed to have the corn or COB...right?


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## Alaskan (Nov 25, 2021)

Genipher said:


> Weelll...they do get alfalfa pellets. I got that back when I noticed the girls weren't eating hay.
> I also feed them COB, cracked corn, BOSS, and occasionally whole oatmeal.  Though now that I've got the buck, I was thinking of getting regular goat feed because I'm pretty sure the buck is not supposed to have the corn or COB...right?


Sounds like a bunch of feed....  mightbe they just aren't hungry.

Plain old goat pellets are nice... since then you KNOW that they are getting the right stuff in the right ratios.


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## Dandy Hill Farm (Nov 25, 2021)

I agree with @Alaskan.  A lot of grain and they aren't hungry.  The hay sounds good.



Genipher said:


> I'm pretty sure the buck is not supposed to have the corn or COB...right?


Boys can have whatever as long as their diet is properly calcium and phosphorus balanced.  I found/heard you don't have to worry about that too much with bucks than you do wethers....I would still be a bit careful though.


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## Genipher (Nov 25, 2021)

Dandy Hill Farm said:


> I agree with @Alaskan.  A lot of grain and they aren't hungry.  The hay sounds good.
> 
> 
> Boys can have whatever as long as their diet is properly calcium and phosphorus balanced.  I found/heard you don't have to worry about that too much with bucks than you do wethers....I would still be a bit careful though.


Yeeeeah...I don't know how to tell if the calcium and phosphorus are balanced so if it's not too crazy tomorrow, I'm hoping to hit the feed store for goat feed.


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## BarnOwl (Nov 28, 2021)

rachels.haven said:


> ...or get two bucks and use one to cover your originals and one to cover the offspring you unavoidably keep...and then you need another and another and another of the next breed you "try" et c.


Can two bucks be together in the same pasture or do they fight/compete too much?


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## rachels.haven (Nov 28, 2021)

I hear there are exceptions, but most bucks are fine and even enjoy their frat club pens. They do wrestle and buck each other up, but they seem to like each other and be nicer to each other more than the does do. They just get out for dates.


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## Genipher (Nov 29, 2021)

Dogs have dug under the goat fence TWICE now. They don't hurt them, they're just providing a way for the goats to escape and have access to the whole backyard.
It is driving me CRAZY.

If I can find it in the budget I think I'll build a waist high raised STONE garden bed along the goat fence so the dogs will stop digging them out!

Oh, and today I saw evidence that Poppy and the buck have been having some good times together. 😆


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## Alaskan (Nov 29, 2021)

Genipher said:


> Dogs have dug under the goat fence TWICE now. They don't hurt them, they're just providing a way for the goats to escape and have access to the whole backyard.
> It is driving me CRAZY.
> 
> If I can find it in the budget I think I'll build a waist high raised STONE garden bed along the goat fence so the dogs will stop digging them out!
> ...


A stone garden bed will make it easier for the dogs to jump in.

You probably need electric.


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## Genipher (Nov 29, 2021)

Alaskan said:


> A stone garden bed will make it easier for the dogs to jump in.
> 
> You probably need electric.


Ug. Hadn't thought of that. Poo.


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## Mini Horses (Nov 30, 2021)

Wire at bottom, about a ft over grass...dogs can't dig in.  By summer they will have given up the game and you can remove it.


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