# Need Help - Lines Of Breeding - When To Not Breed.



## kuntrygirl (Mar 5, 2012)

Can someone please direct me to a link or a chart or some other info that can show me lines of breeding as far as when to stop breeding?

Example:  Don't breed sister to brother.  OR Don't breed mother to uncle.  Just examples.

Thanks for any help.


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## bonbean01 (Mar 5, 2012)

I hope someone knows and answers...I've been wondering about this too..all my research online says one generation is okay and not to go further than that.


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## kuntrygirl (Mar 5, 2012)

bonbean01 said:
			
		

> I hope someone knows and answers...I've been wondering about this too..all my research online says one generation is okay and not to go further than that.


Hopefully someone will come along and let us both know.  Cross your fingers.


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## SheepGirl (Mar 5, 2012)

I have bred (on accident) son to mother, full brother to full sister, and half brother to half sister. (And this year again, my ram went through the fence and bred his mother.) Three out of the four lambs died...however, after consulting with two vets and researching, the symptoms they showed seemed to be signs of a selenium deficiency (first time we've had that happen). Many show flocks inbreed and linebreed their stock to "stamp" phenotypic traits onto the lambs...however, usually they are used for market lambs.

If you're breeding seedstock, I would suggest outcrossing as much as possible, ie breeding the ewe to the least related ram. If you're producing market stock, it doesn't really matter.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 5, 2012)

my horses are linebred and i'm assuming genetics are genetics are genetics, goats or sheep would be the same. but i'm not sure.

the thing to remember is that you are doubling up on the traits of the repeated individuals, so they need to be individuals that you like a LOT. 

genetics are not good or evil, they just are.

a linebred individual is going to have a higher chance or reproducing the traits inherited from the repeated ancestors.  IOW, the repeated ancestors will likely have more influence on the offspring than the linebred parent (unless the linebred parent strongly resemble the repeated ancestors which he likely would)

if you have a superior individual, you can lock those traits in, but you also chance locking in rare or hidden recessive and you have to cull ruthlessly because the undesirable traits lock in just like the desirable ones.

all that said, what is standard or common or acceptable in goats or sheep?

I'm thinking that I need to keep my buck one more year to breed back to his part bred daughters to be sure to lock in the lamancha traits (narrow the possible genetic expressions) but while i like him, i think he's nice, but not superior.  I have one purebred buck from him in this batch that i think might be nicer than his daddy, and i'm thinking he would be the better choice moving forward.

i'm anxious to hear more experienced thoughts on this.


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## Cornish Heritage (Mar 5, 2012)

If you are going to linebreed you have to know what you are doing & what you are looking for in the offspring. I am not knowledgeable enough yet in the sheep arena to be able to give much advice although I know it has & is still being done in the pure bred stock. 

We linebreed some of our Large Black pigs but cull ruthlessly. Sometimes you get a fantastic litter with several that can be registered & sold as breeders, other times the litter is mostly sold for feeders. It just depends on how those genetics work that particular time but Becky is correct in saying that if you have a trait you want to continue then linebreeding is the way to ensure it does continue. When you breed two totally unrelated animals there is no guarantee what they will throw.

If you only have 1 or 2 sheep & you really want lambs from them each year then it may not be worth the risk. If you have a good size flock then you may want to try it with some & not others. For example we have 8 rams here (we raise St. Croix hair sheep) so we can choose to breed totally unrelated or do some linebreeding. For us in managing this conservation herd it is important to keep the lines somewhat distinct so that 10 years from now we still have here on the farm Gibson, Menig & Simpson lines. Too much outcrossing for us especially on our replacement stock would be detrimental. Saying that with a choice of rams in each "line" we can keep the CI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) low. In time though I would like to do some father daughter breedings to see how they turned out. 

Another advantage with linebreeding is that when you outcross the resulting offspring has a low CI percentage. In rare breeds it is critical to always have an outcross available & to not mish mash the genetics because if something were to happen in the future you could well end up losing the breed. Too many breeders out there are on the "low CI bandwagon" which is not good. You should not purchase an animals based solely on it's CI but you should take everything into consideration - conformation, what the parents look like etc.

Hope this helps, 

Liz


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## Karma (Mar 6, 2012)

Honestly it really depends on your animals and situation and what exactly it is that you are trying to accomplish. I really agree with what Liz mentioned about breeding CI's with careful selection of lines both a dam and sire with high CI's can produce offspring with low CI. Keep in mind even test breedings, where you breed super close for example father/daughter, can be valueable in assessing what is "hiding" in your breeding stock. The only thing I can say with certainty I would not breed would be full siblings as they just share way too much genetic material.


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## 20kidsonhill (Mar 6, 2012)

we have bred father to daughter several times, because we didn't have an alternate buck, since we are raising for meat and breeding stock, we just used the kids for meat. We didn't see anything wrong with the kids, some of them were very nice and they all grew just as well as the other kids.


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## TexasShepherdess (Mar 6, 2012)

I was told by a respected breeder I know that it is commonplace to breed father back to daughters..provided both individuals are OUTSTANDING representatives of the breed. He stated anything beyond that was not "ideal"..

I personally have not done it..but I know afew people who have..mainly for meat animals..the lambs turned out quite normal.


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## Cornish Heritage (Mar 6, 2012)

> I was told by a respected breeder I know that it is commonplace to breed father back to daughters..provided both individuals are OUTSTANDING representatives of the breed.


Yes it is a common practice as it concentrates the good genetics. Many folks are scared they are going to end up with an animal with 2 heads or 6 feet! LOL! I have never heard of that happening but of course sometimes, as already stated, the bad genetics do come through. 

The hardest thing when dealing with animals that only have 1 or 2 babies is the temptation to want to keep that offspring no matter what it looks like which is obviously bad practice. When you are dealing with large litters like pigs it is much easier to be selective as you have 8-12 to choose the best from. 

Liz


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## TexasShepherdess (Mar 6, 2012)

^^Makes sense for sure..you really have to "cull hard" and be dicriminative if you decide to linebreed back..


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## Remuda1 (Mar 6, 2012)

TexasShepherdess said:
			
		

> I was told by a respected breeder I know that it is commonplace to breed father back to daughters..provided both individuals are OUTSTANDING representatives of the breed. He stated anything beyond that was not "ideal"..
> 
> I personally have not done it..but I know afew people who have..mainly for meat animals..the lambs turned out quite normal.


This is exactly what I've been told.


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## jodief100 (Mar 6, 2012)

You start getting issues with malformities when you linebreed for multiple generations.  For example when you  breed father to daughter and then the same father to granddaughter of that father-daughter breeding.   I have read you should  never do the same generation  (brother - sister). 

Other than that, be careful, only breed those of top quality and be willing to cull ruthlessly when negative recesives show up, because they will.


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## Bossroo (Mar 7, 2012)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> You start getting issues with malformities when you linebreed for multiple generations.  For example when you  breed father to daughter and then the same father to granddaughter of that father-daughter breeding.   I have read you should  never do the same generation  (brother - sister).
> 
> Other than that, be careful, only breed those of top quality and be willing to cull ruthlessly when negative recesives show up, because they will.


Not necessarily so ...  there are lines of mice, rats. guinea pigs, rabbits, etc. that are line/ inbred for many, many  generations for scientific reasearch.  At UCD, I have personally taken a line of inbred mice and inbred them for  another 27 generations with NO ill effects. We needed virtual clones for research purposes in the days before cloneing was a reality.   Similar results with the others.  I have taken it another step with sheep as well as horses... for 5 generations with NO ill effects.  The thing is that you have to sellect the original stock that hopefully  do not carry recessive undesirable genes .  To accomplish this, one has to first do test breedings of VERY SELECT INDIVIDUALS with outstanding  desired genetics for multiple generations, and cull severely every generation untill you reach the desired goals. Afterall, breeds of all livestock were started by inbreeding first.  Example:  All of the Morgan horse breed traces back to a single outstanding stallion... Justin Morgan.   All Thoroughbreds trace back to 2 individual Arabian and 1 Barb stallions.


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## aggieterpkatie (Mar 7, 2012)

I worked on a cattle farm that is incredibly well known for their line bred cattle. They've brought in no outside cattle in decades.  Line breeding isn't simply breeding father to daughter, etc....but it's more involved than that. The farm where I worked never bred cattle that were that close in relation.


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## kuntrygirl (Mar 7, 2012)

Excellent replies.  WOW !!!  I have a lot of work to do.  For starters, I have to get rid of all of the rams that I have and get another blood line.   

I hate to see my boys go but I know I have to do it.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 7, 2012)

> The thing is that you have to sellect the original stock that hopefully  do not carry recessive undesirable genes .  To accomplish this, one has to first do test breedings of VERY SELECT INDIVIDUALS with outstanding  desired genetics for multiple generations, and cull severely every


Superior original stock AND severe culling is the key to successful linebreeding and where most people fall flat.

i will argue that basically all stock will have undesirables and that the linebreeding brings them forward and that's why the culling is so important. 

you also have to be aware of linked traits - where if you cull too much of one an undesirable you could inadvertently be culling something desirable.

I will say it definitely is a tough way to go and IMO probably not something that most people are willing to put enough into.


some of what we're seeing in horses now, with the availability to test for some genetic lethals is the ability to know if a horse is s heterozygous carrier for a something and breed it appropriately to a negative horse and try to cull produced carrier and hopefully produce a negative foal that has the desirable traits of the ancestor. ... it can take a lot of culling ... not for me!  I linebreed my horses, but it's a pretty well established group and i geld ruthlessly.


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## Cornish Heritage (Mar 7, 2012)

> Superior original stock AND severe culling is the key to successful linebreeding and where most people fall flat.


You also have to be careful that when breeding for certain attributes that you do not lose some other important ones. For eg. there is a certain breed of cattle out there that breeders have bred & bred for better beef/muscle only now to discover that the mamas no longer have the ability to raise their young - not enough milk! Oops!

More & more breeders are creating closed herds, mostly for bio-security reasons. I'm not sure that is good practice but yet again, if breeding practices are done wisely & the culling is ruthless with only the best being allowed to breed then it can & does work.


Liz


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## kuntrygirl (Mar 8, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> > Superior original stock AND severe culling is the key to successful linebreeding and where most people fall flat.
> 
> 
> You also have to be careful that when breeding for certain attributes that you do not lose some other important ones. For eg. there is a certain breed of cattle out there that breeders have bred & bred for better beef/muscle only now to discover that the mamas no longer have the ability to raise their young - not enough milk! Oops!
> ...


I thought about bio-security for the last couple of days and I am totally afraid of getting a new ram that has all kinds of health problems and other issues.  I know it will be a difficult decision, so I Will have to carefully seek out reputable breeders.


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## beckyburkheart (Mar 8, 2012)

kuntrygirl said:
			
		

> Cornish Heritage said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


look at tb race horses, bred for speed to the point that their legs can't support them.  that's a prime example of breeding for a specific trait without keeping the "whole package" in mind.  there are others, look in any almost show ring and you'll see a basically dysfunctional extreme of the so-called breed ideals, halter quarter horses with nerve disorder that causes their muscles to twitch (workout) incessantly ... - look at performance tested animals for good working stock.

You have to be knowledgeable and informed and beware, but it's certainly not impossible.  You just can't make emotional based purchases if you're going to run a business. -or at least you can't start there.  It's hard because we all love our animals.


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## Cornish Heritage (Mar 8, 2012)

> You just can't make emotional based purchases if you're going to run a business.


Spot on! BUT it is definitely (IMO) a gradual process. Don't beat yourself up when you make mistakes but do try & learn from other's mistakes.



> I thought about bio-security for the last couple of days and I am totally afraid of getting a new ram that has all kinds of health problems and other issues.  I know it will be a difficult decision, so I Will have to carefully seek out reputable breeders.


Check out several breeders, ask lots of questions. Be prepared to travel for the right animal - it will pay you in the end. If you are purchasing registered stock make sure you see the registration papers BEFORE you purchase. Definitely do not walk away from the farm without them or a guarantee that they will be provided.

All in all have fun looking for a new ram.

Liz


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## kuntrygirl (Mar 8, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> > You just can't make emotional based purchases if you're going to run a business.
> 
> 
> Spot on! BUT it is definitely (IMO) a gradual process. Don't beat yourself up when you make mistakes but do try & learn from other's mistakes.
> ...


Great advice.  Thanks!


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## kfacres (May 21, 2012)

I think there are some interesting responses here.  

When talking about linebreeding- remember all breeds were once a linebred group of individuals focused on certain traits-- and because they kept getting linebred-- they became their own breed.

Many of you have small flocks of heritage, or exotic bred sheep-- in those tiny breeds- you must realize that the available gene pool is very small-- and if you don't linebreed- you may as well just disperse.

In my flock- I prefer to linebreed- and quite honestly have never owned a 100% outcross ram, and I have not used a ram of more than 25% outcross in 7 years now.  I do not have plans to use any outcross for a very long time.  I think it's a game to see what I can make next, from where I came from.  

I like the half brother/ half sister mating-- if you have lots of unknowns in your flock.  I like the daughter/ grandson mating for making some tremendous females.  I really like the mother/ son cross for testing out hidden recessive traits in a new stud ram prospect.  I do the father/ daughter cross quite often-- and it really helps show the old buck's breeding strength.  I have lambs being stacked with 15 or more shots of a particular ram within say 6 or 7 generations.  

Had some lambs born this spring- which are three generations of half brother/ sister matings.  On the 8 parental generation- only 1 ram was listed- and only 3 females- two of which are 3/4 sisters, and the third one is a result of a mother/ son.  

The most expensive (3k for half interest), and most pre-potent breeding ram I've ever used- was a result of a ewe mated to her twin brother.  

IMO- most people cannot linebreed their flocks- b/c of the 'junk' that might and does show up.  You have to have a distinct goal of uniformity to reach- and not just a bunch of grass eaters.

For more info, consult our website:  kfacres. webs.  com


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## Cornish Heritage (May 21, 2012)

First off let me say "Welcome KFAcres." Next let me say "Wow!" Someone talking like we do  It is SO good to hear someone else who sees the common sense of linebreeding/inbreeding. SO many folks have been swayed by this "having to have low CI's" with absolutely NO guarantee of what they will get. 

We purchased our herd of St. Croix this past winter & they were already bred so we had to take what we were dealt so to speak but this breeding season we have been able to pair up the way we wanted & looking forward to seeing the results. We have much to learn with sheep but are already seeing some characteristics that we want to promote & others we want to get rid of. With our Large Black hogs we tend to breed close & love the results most of the time. Always some culls but then pigs have large litters. (We do some low CI breeding for the customers that want it.) Same with our Milking Devons - very few people are actually milking these great cows anymore. Our aim is to produce the best milk cows we can without losing the beef quality. Going to take us a while but hopefully we'll get there. 

Thanks for sharing & all the best with your breeding program. 

Liz


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## beckyburkheart (May 21, 2012)

*like*  

.. what she said.  my horses are tightly linebred and I get consistent and superior results.

i agree it's not something that just everyone should jump into.  it takes a critical eye and a willingness to cull. 

we're keeping a superior buckling from our best doe to bred back to his half sisters next year and expecting to see some real nice results.


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## Cornish Heritage (May 21, 2012)

> i agree it's not something that just everyone should jump into.  it takes a critical eye and a willingness to cull.


We tell new breeders that frequently. Sadly although we tell folks they need to cull hard we hear of some who still sell everything they produce as registered which really does not do the breed any good.

Liz


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## kfacres (May 22, 2012)

I have found that unless you stack quite a bit of father/ daughter or mother/ son matings ontop each other... your Inbreeding Co-ef... will never be very small.  

I have one ram lamb which is stacked pedigree wise to an old buck born in '00.  He's got 7 shots in 5 generations... is about 45% the old buck's blood--- but his I.C.-- is still very low.

I think linebreeding is the key to success-- whatever your goal is-- unless you just want to have fun and don't have a goal.  However, fun for me-- is seeing what crazy mating scheme I can come up with next-- and see if it works...

I have no desire to purchase any outside blood- just sit here and do my own little thing.  

I know a guy, claims he's not outbred since the 50's.  Claims if you have less than 100 ewes, and you don't-- you'll be out of the business in 10 years.  I'm not sure, but secretly, I know he used a Columbia ram back in the 80s on his suffolks... so he's not as linebred as he makes everyone believe he is.


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## beckyburkheart (May 22, 2012)

The thing I look at in linebreeding is the repeated ancestors more than the parents, if there is a significant blood percentages.  otherwise, you have to look real hard at your stock because by linebreeding you're going to double up on whatever you have.  good or bad.  In order to maintain quality, you have to continually breed the best to the best, knowing that any flaws will be doubled up on as well.

what lethals (or very undesirable) recessives do you see in goats?  (I know there are some in horses that different breeds test for)


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## kfacres (May 22, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> The thing I look at in linebreeding is the repeated ancestors more than the parents, if there is a significant blood percentages.  otherwise, you have to look real hard at your stock because by linebreeding you're going to double up on whatever you have.  good or bad.  In order to maintain quality, you have to continually breed the best to the best, knowing that any flaws will be doubled up on as well.
> 
> what lethals (or very undesirable) recessives do you see in goats?  (I know there are some in horses that different breeds test for)


The numerous ancient ancestors in my pedigrees-- are in almost every case, prior to my time- and so my direct knowledge of their breeding abiltiy is second hand.  Using a generation percentage calculator- anything after 3 or 4 generations is void anyways due to such a low percentage in influence-- even if stacked around that individual 100 times.  

I try to focus my linebreeding around my superior ewe or cow families, or stud producers.  Things like stacking up the influence of that one great producer stud ewe, or her phenominal son-- are very common in my breeding schemes.  

I have found it more valueable to me-- to stack up the great females-- as opposed to the great stud rams.  But, my goal is female production-- not sire production.  I breed with more 'female' sires-- than those that should be considered 'terminal'.  

After many generations of being closed, and having linebred pedigrees stacked on top of each other-- the junk all gets weeded out; and the positive traits are all magnituded to a homozygous state.  Eventually, you will rid yourself of the negitive, hidden traits--- unless a mutation is developed-- and in that case-- it will be exposed very quickly in a dedicated linebreeding program...


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## Cornish Heritage (May 22, 2012)

> I have found that unless you stack quite a bit of father/ daughter or mother/ son matings ontop each other... your Inbreeding Co-ef... will never be very small.


When you breed Mother/Son or Father/Daughter you get a CI of around 30%. If you breed Brother/Sister you are looking at around 34%. However when you outcross from that with a different stud you can get your CI below 10%. This is what we do when we sell breeding pairs - we breed higher on both original matings then when you pair together the offspring it brings the CI down which pleases the customer but allows us also to be producing quality replacement stock.

Our aim with the sheep over the next few years is to keep the lines distinct but to build the lines back to what they originally looked like so that there is uniformity. Right now we have big framed, small framed & everything in between for each line. i want our lines to look like what they should so each one is distinct. That will mean very careful selection here & I am sure we will make some mistakes but at least lambs are extremely tasty so nothing will be wasted 

For our cows I want to get them all to where they are all good milkers as well as beef producers. That is going to take longer due to only one calf per year & cows taking so much longer to mature. Hopefully 10 years from now we will have the "best" herd.

Liz


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## kfacres (May 23, 2012)

Cornish Heritage said:
			
		

> > I have found that unless you stack quite a bit of father/ daughter or mother/ son matings ontop each other... your Inbreeding Co-ef... will never be very small.
> 
> 
> When you breed Mother/Son or Father/Daughter you get a CI of around 30%. If you breed Brother/Sister you are looking at around 34%. However when you outcross from that with a different stud you can get your CI below 10%. This is what we do when we sell breeding pairs - we breed higher on both original matings then when you pair together the offspring it brings the CI down which pleases the customer but allows us also to be producing quality replacement stock.
> ...


my whole flock is like peas in a pod...  I have a few 'lines'- that I use to inject different pieces into the puzzle, and have one particular line that I am selecting to be completely different-- yet genetically the same...  We'll see what happens.


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## beckyburkheart (May 23, 2012)

I would love to see some pics of both your herds with comments on the percents of ancestor and such. 

What i've seen with my horses ... my stallion is linebred in three concentrated lines, 50% "Jalam/Sindidah", 25% "Roach" and 25% "F/T".  He and his full brother, and his sister out of the same mare and a different stallion (same group, different percents)  very very closely resemble the 50% ancestors rather than their own sire/dam.  - these are grandparents and great ... I don't have enough generations for as much stacking as you're talking about. 

Regardless of who/what he's bred to, he consistently reproduces his own "look", in the face and overall body carriage, great temperament and attitude, trainability and fantastic hoof wall.  The mare seems to contribute the color and final size and somewhat to the body shape.  To me, it seems that the obvious traits that he consistently passes on are the ones that are doubled up on through the linebreeding.

I'd love to be able to do this with my goats, but I don't have the concentrated pools to start with.  I'm going be keeping a very close watch over the next few years to see what i can do with this herd, and i'd love to hear more about what both of you are doing with your programs. ...including any mistakes, if you don't mind sharing, that you could help me avoid.


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## kfacres (May 23, 2012)

beckyburkheart said:
			
		

> I would love to see some pics of both your herds with comments on the percents of ancestor and such.
> 
> What i've seen with my horses ... my stallion is linebred in three concentrated lines, 50% "Jalam/Sindidah", 25% "Roach" and 25% "F/T".  He and his full brother, and his sister out of the same mare and a different stallion (same group, different percents)  very very closely resemble the 50% ancestors rather than their own sire/dam.  - these are grandparents and great ... I don't have enough generations for as much stacking as you're talking about.
> 
> ...


Try this link: http://www.freewebs.com/showsheep/referencesires.htm

Pay particular attention to the looks of "Out 4 Blood" vs. "Tom Cat", and another ram lamb I never used- 0921 (not pictured)>  I think these three are dang neared identical.

Then check out "Skid Row", "Apoc", and "Samurai"-- (on the actual stud sires page)

Lastly check out "Injection", and "Pipe".  

Those ram lambs are the only ones that I have kept to breed with- me personally, there are plenty of them that look nearly identical-- that never made it on the website.

I have a ram lamb this year, who looks nearly identical to "Screamer", and another one who I swear is a carbon copy of "Static".  

Browse that website- or better yet-- I'll invite you to come check them out in person!!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 23, 2012)

*There is a really good article on line-breeding chickens I saw from BYC not too long ago... I've been searching since last night for it to post the link and now I can't find it. :/*


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## kfacres (May 23, 2012)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *There is a really good article on line-breeding chickens I saw from BYC not too long ago... I've been searching since last night for it to post the link and now I can't find it. :/*


I think I remember that one too.. Think it was in the genetics and breeds section.


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## Southdown (Jul 7, 2012)

You all are very educated on this subject.  I am a beginner.  What is CI?  Can someone explain that?  I am currently using one quality ram to breed the ewes that are not at all related.  I don't intend to breed him to daughters, etc.  Mostly because I am not familiar with linebreeding I suppose.  But there are some specific traits that I want to breed for, so I have chosen some non-related ewes with these good traits to breed with him.  But perhaps those daughter turn out to display the good traits I'm aiming for, well then, maybe that would be a good time to line breed the father to daughter?  But anyway, I am glad I stumbled across this thread because I just discovered that one of my ewes is pregnant from her son.  Her son is dead, but he was a castration failure, so he bred back to his mom.  My husband thinks this is going to result in some mutant, two-headed lamb.  But after reading this thread, it should be ok, but will result in those particular genetics showing very strongly.  I would say their physical appearance is middle of the road (neither poor nor superior) and their temperament is superior.  So I am expecting to see a lamb with excellent temperament and fair looks.  We shall see.


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## Year of the Rooster (Jul 7, 2012)

I have to say that this is a very educational thread, and I enjoy reading about different breeding methods (for any animal). If anyone is able to find it, there is an interesting article in the 2011 November/December issue of _*sheep!*_ about inbreeding. I highly recommend it.

ETA: Here is the magazine's website: www.sheepmagazine.com ; you can order back issues, too, for $4 each.


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## shawnfisher (Jul 8, 2012)

Year of the Rooster said:
			
		

> I have to say that this is a very educational thread, and I enjoy reading about different breeding methods (for any animal). If anyone is able to find it, there is an interesting article in the 2011 November/December issue of _*sheep!*_ about inbreeding. I highly recommend it.
> 
> ETA: Here is the magazine's website: www.sheepmagazine.com ; you can order back issues, too, for $4 each.


is this the one that talked about establishing an unrelated flock with linebreeding?  and being able to use your own rams, with different sire lines?  

In reference to making 4 lines of breeding animals, I think ?


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## Year of the Rooster (Jul 8, 2012)

shawnfisher said:
			
		

> Year of the Rooster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No this one talked about how people confuse an animals parentage with its genetics, and how there is a certain percentage chance that 1 out of 4 offspring from the same parents can be genetically unrelated to the other offspring.


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## Cornish Heritage (Jul 9, 2012)

> What is CI?  Can someone explain that?


Here is an edited, shortened section from our Large Black hog FAQ page that Richard (hubby) wrote. Keep in mind that this is written with rare breeds in mind so normally as breeders we have limited genetics available in the first place. 

*Some breeders try the old 'appeal to hi-tech' fallacy, where you are manipulated into thinking you are getting the best thing by the breeder spouting scientific terms at you when you have no understanding what they actually mean. Genetics is a complicated field and although we have limited exposure in this area (Richard is a paramedic and had to study the field for a while) we don't claim to be experts. We are happy to leave that to people like Dr Phillip Sponenberg of the ALBC that specialize in preserving rare breeds. A good book to read if you are really 'into it', is 'Managing Breeds For a Secure Future', by Dr Sponenberg and Dr Bixby. Here's our interpretation of what CI means how how it should be used.

CI (or COI)  stands for the Coefficient of Inbreeding. It can be used for all registered animals across the globe. The CI statistically guesses the amount of inbreeding in a specific animal. The higher the percentage, the higher the inbreeding.  A CI of less than 10% is considered good for a rare breed.

However, in order to keep the Large Black lines more distinct, much of our stock is higher than 10%. We have done this on purpose to help preserve the breed. In a rare breed if too much crossing of lines happens the genetic diversity is muddled, much of it is lost & should something happen to one of the lines, extinction of that line could occur due to there being no new genetics to introduce back into it. We have made the conscious  decision here at Cornish Heritage Ventures to produce Large Blacks that keep closely to the named lines.

Something that most people miss about CIs is that pairing two low CI pigs can give rise to piglets with high CIs and too much breeding for low CIs reduces the ability to find pairings that produce low CI offspring. Balance is what is needed, careless breeding for low CIs is bad. Careless in-breeding is bad. Controlled and sensible use of both methods is good for a breed with such a small population.

Never choose a piglet because it has a low CI or because it has a fantastic lineage. Those are factors to be considered, but blind reliance on them is asking for trouble. Instead choose based on looks, parental history, parental looks and advice from the breeder.

When all is said and done, it is important to continue to only breed the best to the best ensuring that the line strengthens. When breeding two animals that are closely related not only is it highly probable that the good traits will be passed to their offspring it is also possible for the bad traits to pass on so great care & diligence has to be taken. *



> My husband thinks this is going to result in some mutant, two-headed lamb.


He is not the only one that thinks that! HOWEVER I think you can quite safely reassure him that the above will not happen but you may not get a superior lamb. You really do have to cull hard when doing tight breedings but saying that you need to cull hard even when you are not. Some breeders just do not get this. They are of the opinion that just because they have bred a registered pair of animals, the offspring are automatically going to be registrable quality. (Yes I have had breeders look at me in disgust when I have said that not everything born is good enough to be registered. They just shake their heads at me.) Not culling hard is bad for ALL breeds so when that lamb is born, really check it out. Let it mature a little & see what you think. If it turns out well then go ahead & breed from it, if not then enjoy it as roast for dinner. 

We kept one ram lamb back this year as a potential replacement breeder from an old ram that had died. He is absolutely superb - we are SO pleased with how he is maturing but many of the others did not make the final round & yes we even cull ewes that don't turn out good. 

Hope this helps, 

Liz


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## NachoFarm (Aug 10, 2012)

Ok, I'm doing a mini hijack AND asking a really simple question about an apparently REALLY complicated topic...so we have percentage Gotlands, and we also own the father/grandfather of two of them.  We also have another ewe who is unrelated to the ram.  So who can we safely breed being as that it's only to increase percentages?  I'm not sure that question makes sense.  LOL!


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## SheepGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

You can breed the ram to the unrelated ewe, his daughter, and his granddaughter with no issues. However inbreeding decreases commercial traits (reproductive fitness, growth, etc) when done through many generations, so I wouldn't keep doing it.


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## kfacres (Aug 10, 2012)

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Ok, I'm doing a mini hijack AND asking a really simple question about an apparently REALLY complicated topic...so we have percentage Gotlands, and we also own the father/grandfather of two of them.  We also have another ewe who is unrelated to the ram.  So who can we safely breed being as that it's only to increase percentages?  I'm not sure that question makes sense.  LOL!


yes, and with a breed such small as your's is-- you'll want to do that- otherwise, you'll never get your blood % up high.

I have done 3 generations of brother/ sister matings before-

Really, you need to linebreed to figure out what problems you have hidden in your ewes.

If you are serious about IC, check out this link.  It's touchy, and you need to fill out the entire pedigree in order for it to be correct.  I like to go to the 8th generation-- but then again, most people aren't going to have that distant of a pedigree.  
http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.php?full=ok&lng=en

I've got 2 sheep here that I consider pretty linebred- that I actually just finished figuring an IC on.

One has an IC of 9.18%, and an ancestor loss Coefficient of 91.7%.  This ram has 36% of his bloodwork tracing to Scope, and 25.8% tracing to Adam.  On a 5 generation pedigree- scope is listed 2x, and Adam once.  

The ewe I just ran, has an IC of 17.45%, and an ancestor loss of 87.06%.  She's got 20.3% of Scope, and 19.5 of Adam in her, with neither being listed on the 5 generation pedigree.  

I chose these two to run, because I'm keeping a ewe lamb from that mating this year, and wanted to see how she'll look on paper- but it will be pretty crazy.  To start with, she's a half brother/ sister mating on top (both are sired by Impact), and from there the bottom sides are nearly identical to the top-- with some additions.  Pretty cool really-- around here, my goal is to make it as crazy as I can pedigree wise.  It's a game really.

If anyone would like to see the sheet runs, and a pedigree-- inquire and I'll email them.


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## NachoFarm (Aug 10, 2012)

Pretty much everything you said after the first sentence is Greek to me!  LOL!  

I guess I have A LOT of reading/researching/flying by the seat of my pants to do...


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## kfacres (Aug 10, 2012)

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Pretty much everything you said after the first sentence is Greek to me!  LOL!
> 
> I guess I have A LOT of reading/researching/flying by the seat of my pants to do...


give me your email, I'll send you what I'm talking about.

like mentioned above somewhere, the most common linebreeding/ inbreeding practices are:
 half brother to half sister
grandson to a daughter
father to daughter
mother to son
full sibling to each other

You can get plenty more complex like 3/4 siblings, 7/8 siblings, etc.  or you can stack two or three generations of brother xixter matings.  

There is a very good book that I've read cover to cover 10 times.  Talks abou linebreeding being never more than 50% of the influence of one animal, and inbreeding being that of greater than 50%.  As long as you never stack a father daughter, or mother/ son-- then you'll never inbreed-- genetically impossible.  

Right now, I'm breeding with 4 rams- 3 of them still have alive mothers-- and all three are in the pen with their mother.  About 60% of my ewes are half sisters, or greater- the rest are their mothers, and newer generations (daughters or neices, for lack of better term), and my current lineup of stud rams are all half brothers to those ewes, the 4th is a son of one of them.


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## kfacres (Aug 10, 2012)

one more thought- I have never bred with a true, 100% outcross stud ram to more than 2 ewes as a trial (almost all failed), and I have not used one of more than 25% outcross in 7 years.  This year the highest % outcross in one of my stud rams is about 1/8.


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## NachoFarm (Aug 10, 2012)

Sure!  It's pisceslove_123@hotmail.com

So the ram we have is like I said, father/grandfather to two and completely unrelated to the other.  The easy answer, we can breed him with everybody?


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## SheepGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

NachoFarm said:
			
		

> Sure!  It's pisceslove_123@hotmail.com
> 
> So the ram we have is like I said, father/grandfather to two and completely unrelated to the other.  The easy answer, we can breed him with everybody?


Yep, go ahead and breed him with everybody.


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## boothcreek (Aug 10, 2012)

I have always line bred in poultry without issues, got my sheep and I find it to be good for finding A- flaws in a particular sheep(since good and BAD traits- like multiple teats etc- get amplified) and B - to ankor in a desired trait.

For example, I have 1 ewe that I find body type wise to be what to me would be the ideal for the breed. Her colour and markings are pretty good too, small flaws easily fixable with the right ram. Bred her to a related(cousin) ram(from the same flock thats been a closed and linebred flock for about 15 yrs) and got a ram lamb out of the cross that embodied what i think this breed should look like, body shape like his mother plus improved colour and markings.

Lost the original ram, bought another -totally unrelated- one(very nice looking ram good colour etc) and kept the son out of the ewe as well. Crossed the ewe with the unrelated ram the past 2 years and quality of lambs was nice(good examples for the breed for sure) but they varied type and marking wise and none really got me closer to my breeding goal(altho when you look at the parents you would think they should produce what I want, but thats were unknown recessive/hidden genes throw a wrench in your weels). 
Usually I rather breed grandparent to grandchild or half siblings but I thought what the heck put that particular ewe in with her son from 2 yrs ago since I have to yet get a lamb out of him. Also put his half sister(same sire) with him as well.

Outcome was quality wise(for my breeding goal) closer then any other lambs I have raised in the last 2 yrs. I think I will continue linebreeding this particular line I just love the results.

Key is to cull ruthlessly when you first start a linebreeding project, once established I found(with poultry anyways) that a linebred line isnt any harder to maintain then a constantly outcrossed one except that an established line has a whole lot less surprises pop up(some people live for those tho, thats what I got my 2 painted desert ewes for, depending on the ram the results really vary with them and its lots of fun to guess what it will be this year).


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## kfacres (Aug 10, 2012)

boothcreek said:
			
		

> I have always line bred in poultry without issues, got my sheep and I find it to be good for finding A- flaws in a particular sheep(since good and BAD traits- like multiple teats etc- get amplified) and B - to ankor in a desired trait.
> 
> For example, I have 1 ewe that I find body type wise to be what to me would be the ideal for the breed. Her colour and markings are pretty good too, small flaws easily fixable with the right ram. Bred her to a related(cousin) ram(from the same flock thats been a closed and linebred flock for about 15 yrs) and got a ram lamb out of the cross that embodied what i think this breed should look like, body shape like his mother plus improved colour and markings.
> 
> ...


the problem with your situation, is you don't know what the next generation will be like, and you  have no idea about the future.  Not saying it won't work, but it's going to take several generations to get from point A to B.  

You have a very good start though, awesome

I don't know much about the painted desert sheep, or the gotland like the OP has-- but to those people who have animsls from a tiny breed, especially a lack of a gene pool-- i encourage them to linebreed, at least 2 distinct lines in their herds or flocks.  This way when you do get in trouble, you have something else to fall back on and fix those problems.  Many of these breeds don't have more than a handful of producers, and everything is the same genetically--- even if you go somewhere else to buy it.  

In my example that I listed the IC above- those pedigrees are full of boughten sheep, however, those purchases were the same genetically as what I already had.. and my IC are through the roof.  Which I do not mind, I actually prefer it that way.

IMO the sire daughter, or grandsire to grandaughter cross-- is the two poorest methods of production-- unless you are just trying to up your %; atleast in the large livestock species.  yes, I've done it quite a bit, and will do it more-- but IMO, if you are going to create a problem-- it will happen here, and in all reality by the time you get to breeding granddaughters-- you better have made enough genetic progress that the old original sire needs to be moved beyond-- otherwise, you're doing nothing but wasting timie and money if he hasn't produced a son better than he is yet...  and if he can't do that-- he sure doesn't need pedigrees stacked around him.


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## kfacres (Aug 13, 2012)

For anyone who might be interested in how tight you can breed one with linebreeding- check out a ram lamb I just posted on my website:  http://www.freewebs.com/showsheep/supersires.htm   He will be the 2nd pedigree from the bottom, 1st picture from the bottom, as I haven't got a picture of the bottom lamb yet.  

In the next generation, you'll find:

"Catwalk" is a "Power Pack" son, the $6500 high selling ram of National Sale- 2001, and son of the $5500 National Champion, "Syndication" ram- high selling in '01 and Reserve at Louisville. His mother is a daughter of "Turbo".  

Harris 0259 is sired by a partial outcross ram, and from a "Turbo" daughter.
Harris 4884 is an old school pedigreed deal, which is really generations removed.  Her mother and grandmother were both 10 yrs when she was born, as was the 4884 when 0414 was born.
DOA "Rambo" is 3/4 outcross, and from a "Turbo" daughter.
0314, could be considered outcross to this pedigree line.
Harris 0377 is a daughter of Harris 0205 (sired by the same ram as 0259 above, and Harris 0014.  0014 is the dam of Harris 0205.
Harris 0278 is a daughter of Harris 0095, a "Turbo" son, and from a "Turbo" daughter.  

I'm going to run this through the Inbreeding calculator right now.


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