# Curious-updated with PIC



## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

So I am curious as there has been alot of wonderings about chlamydial abortions versus other types of abortions. I have read that chlamydial abortions occur as early as 21 days prior to kidding usually in the first 1/3 of gestation with the aborted kids being mummified or having brownish scaly appearance. It seems that most often than not chlamydia is a given answer to any abortion despite alot of kid goats born not fitting the "look". Now I have also read that toxoplasmosis causes abortions with babies weak or dead and it also can cause tremors in the dam and coughing and shortness of breath. There is also another major causer of abortions and it is camylobacter fetus. This can cause irregular heats which result in a doe coming into heat every month without settling. The main symtoms of this is diarrhea in the doe, abortion to a normal looking kid at 4-6 weeks prior to due date. Could have a reddish fluid in the abdominal cavity of the kid/kids. These are the three common reasons for goat abortions. Now, a question. I am wondering which one sounds more likely for one of my does that aborted a month early a while back. Here is the stats. 4 weeks early, perfectly normal looking besides being only about 3 lbs, the kid had hair though still short but you could feel the hair. The doe was and is fine. No diarrhea, no depression, no signs before aborting of impending labor except shivering but it had been very cold around the same time of the kidding. Second hint, we have rats in our barn. We have since gotten out all the rats out of the main barn the goats are in now but the second barn (no goats are in there) where they were housed last year still has rats living under/in it. Toxoplasmosis is spread through cats and rodents.  I need some answers and chlamydia doesn't seem to be the factor in this case. Please vote which you think more likely. 1-chlamydia, 2-toxoplasmosis, 3-camplobacter fetus and if you know of the way to get rid of the bacteria/disease. Thanks.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 6, 2011)

Unfortunately the only way to know for sure would have been having the kid (and placental tissue) posted.  :/   Really it's just a guessing game now as to the causes of the abortion.  It's a shame any time you lose kids.


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## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

It is a shame and believe me I feel the loss. That is why I am trying to figure out what went on. I have the fetus still (frozen), but not the placenta. I couldn't find the placenta so I think the doe ate it.


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## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

I also have a picture of the the doeling from the same doe last year that she miscarried. Lets see if I can find it.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 This is last years doeling and this years looked very much like this one. Same size, same overall look. This one lived and breathed for 15 minutes but that is all it did.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 6, 2011)

rebelINny said:
			
		

> It is a shame and believe me I feel the loss. That is why I am trying to figure out what went on. I have the fetus still (frozen), but not the placenta. I couldn't find the placenta so I think the doe ate it.


Call and find out your nearest animal health lab to see if they can still use the frozen fetus.  It might cost a little money, but you could probably prevent any more losses in the future.


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## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

They won't take a frozen fetus, I found that out. They can only do it with a chilled but not frozen fetus. Its about 400 dollars at Cornell University to do a necropsy, but again its frozen. We were going to send it off but it had been frozen so we didn't.


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## glenolam (Jan 6, 2011)

Did the same doe miscarry twice?


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## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

Yes the same doe miscarried twice. These were her only two times being bred. She just turned 3 years old in November. Both kids were at the same time gestation at the time miscarried....between 4-5 weeks before the due date.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 6, 2011)

I've read the exact opposite about the timing of chlamydial abortions.  This is paraphrased from the textbook "Goat Medicine:"   Chlamydial abortions occur typically in the last 2 months of gestation and especially in the last 2 weeks.  Fetuses usually appear fresh.  The doe is usually not clinically ill.

I'm not saying it's chlamydial, just sharing different information from what you found.


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## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

Ok thanks. We did dose are does that are due in February just in case but we kinda ruled out chlamydia so didn't dose the rest. Maybe we should anyway just in case. OH I don't know! This is so hard sometimes!


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## glenolam (Jan 6, 2011)

Could it be something with the doe?  If this has happened to her twice I'd wonder if it's a little more than conincidence (sp?)...


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## rebelINny (Jan 6, 2011)

I definitely understand that. It could be something more than just a random thing. I am planning to have testing done soon, just waiting on the cash flow to come in. Maybe I can just have her tested ASAP regardless of doing all the others at the same time. Testing 19 does becomes expensive.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 6, 2011)

I would thing that you don't need to test all 19 does unless they all aborted.  Even if she's the only one you test and she tests positive for chlamydia you'd want to treat everyone anyway, including your bucks.  The same thing may apply for other infectious causes.  If it's not infectious and no one else aborts then I don't see why you'd need to have them tested.


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## Ariel301 (Jan 6, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I've read the exact opposite about the timing of chlamydial abortions.  This is paraphrased from the textbook "Goat Medicine:"   Chlamydial abortions occur typically in the last 2 months of gestation and especially in the last 2 weeks.  Fetuses usually appear fresh.  The doe is usually not clinically ill.
> 
> I'm not saying it's chlamydial, just sharing different information from what you found.


Those are they symptoms I had last kidding season, and mine was confirmed as chlamydia. The doe can be blood tested for that. Chlamydia abortion kids will be aborted in late pregnancy usually, but the kids will not LOOK the age they are--they can be born on or around the due date, but will be undersized and underdeveloped, mine were full term but only around a pound each and completely hairless, otherwise absolutely perfect looking from the outside. The placenta comes out thickened looking and there will be dark reddish-brown goo with the birth, sometimes inside the kids, and the doe may discharge it for a few days. Also, my does that aborted did not bag up prior to kidding, they didn't come into milk at all until a few days after the abortion, and even then did not produce well for the whole season. 

Chlamydia will only cause one abortion in a doe. Once she has done it, she is immune. I'd question other causes if the doe has aborted twice in a row. One could be chlamydia, and the other caused by something else, but if it happened the same way both times, I'd suspect something different. The photo you show does not look like a typical chlamydial abortion to me, she is too well developed (unless maybe the doe was affected very late in pregnancy, enough to make the kid too weak to live, but not too far behind in development, that can happen, as well as a doe delivering live kids that are very weak but do make it through with a lot of extra care). What a shame, that was a beautiful kid. 

The other causes are considerations as well, certainly. The only way to be certain is to test and do necropsies on dead kids.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Chlamydia will only cause one abortion in a doe. Once she has done it, she is immune. .


The same text suggests that it's unlikely two years in a row but the apparent immunity is temporary, lasting maybe 3 years of so.   After that if they're at risk again.


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## rebelINny (Jan 7, 2011)

Well see these gets really were right on target as far as their size for their gestation. They weren't underdeveloped at all for the gestational age and the does did not have any abnormal looking goo or placenta. I found a place that will do a necropsy for $200. I think I will be doing it. Thanks everyone.


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## glenolam (Jan 7, 2011)

Keep us posted!


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