# High Tensile Electric Parts and Design Check



## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 6, 2017)

Hi guys, I wanted to check with you and see what you thought of my plans for our next fence. We are ready to order the parts, posts are already in. In order to keep pigs and goats and dogs (only 1 dog has a problem) we are planning on having the first strand 6" off the ground, then two more strands at 6" width, then another at 8", the next at 10", the final two at 12". That should get us to 5'. Unfortunately, that is 7 strands. 

So, trying to find the best deal on insulators and such. I wanted to know if you guys have had any bad experiences with these cheap options?

1) Dare wire strainer. One for each end of a line with 7 strands means 48 of these.
http://www.midlandhardware.com/product.asp?itemid=69927 

2) Corner insulator. We plan on using these for the other end that does not have the strainer. 42 of them.
http://www.midlandhardware.com/product.asp?itemid=172762

3) Porcelain insulator. This is where I am really having a problem. There are two options, I like the price of the small one... .80 cents is better than anything else I found.
http://www.midlandhardware.com/product.asp?itemid=172769
                                              But, should I go with the, I guess, bigger one?
http://www.midlandhardware.com/product.asp?itemid=172763 

     These porcelain insulators will be used for the bottom 4 strands, the final one being the strand that is 8" higher than the last 6" gap strand. The reason for porcelain is that when the electric goes down and if the pigs decide to push through, I do not want to have to worry about broken insulators.

For the rest of the insulators we will use plastic. I have not bothered to search those out yet.





 

This is a VERY rough outline. The barn has a run and fence behind it already. It is in no way to scale.


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## Bruce (Oct 6, 2017)

I don't know the difference between the 2 ceramic insulators and they aren't giving much information. MAYBE the smaller ones are fine for straight line runs where there is really no pressure on them and the bigger ones for corners? Also not sure how easy it will be to have those "donut" corner insulators stay in place such that your vertical gaps stay as you want them. Especially if the power does go out and the pigs rub all over them. Might be worth the extra expense to put lag bolt insulators there as well.

I used "open side" and "pin" insulators from Premier 1. I can't imagine how much fun it will be to thread the hotwire through fixed holes given the wire will want to stay in its coiled shape and you mess with that when you have to run it through a hole. The other benefit of these is you can just unroll the wire spool and stick it on each insulator as you go.











Assuming this isn't the outline of your total property, might I suggest more gates?? Long walk around since you won't want to climb over. It might also be worth running a gate across the open end at the top of the barn, just in case an animal or two manages to sneak by when someone goes in the barn from that end. 

A suggestion I got from @greybeard, bury a "hot feed" in conduit under the gate so you don't have to disconnect anything when you need to go through nor worry about damaging a wire on the ground. It doesn't have to be real deep but make sure you put risers with 180° turn on the top and a drip loop in the wire to keep rainwater from filling the conduit. USE WIRE SPECIFIED FOR UNDERGROUND USE FOR THIS!

And another idea, you might want to put a switch in that line on one side of the gate or the other so you can shut off the rest of the fence for maintenance without having to go back to the charger. I had to hike to the north end of the barn to unplug the charger (*) when I went out at 11 PM on a condensation dripping night to fix a once per second ZAP!!! arcing of the top hot wire to a T-post in the south fence line. Of course I first had to figure out what was causing the problem by going to that post with the orange flash (and to know WHICH post was involved!). It was a slug (long dead) that had climbed the post and was making the connection between the wire and post. Once cleared, back to the north end of the barn to plug the charger back in. Could have saved a fair bit of hiking if I had a knife switch on the west fence line gate. 

Make a "story pole" with your wire spacing marked on it so you don't have to measure at each post.

* Having already accidentally touched the wire in the past and having NO desire to do it again.


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## greybeard (Oct 6, 2017)

Bruce said:


> I can't imagine how much fun it will be to thread the hotwire through fixed holes given the wire will want to stay in its coiled shape and you mess with that when you have to run it through a hole.


It shouldn't 'want' to stay in a coil shape very muchif pulled off the roll from something like a spinning jenny like it was initially coiled up at the plant.
People get in trouble when they try to unroll it from the coil in complete single coils, either pulling each 'circle' up from coil on the ground or standing the coil on it's side and pulling it off in multiple coils. I just unspooled 3000' of it last week without a hiccup, using a spinning jenny.






 

Seen too many people try it without a jenny and wind up with something like this:


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

Bruce said:


> might I suggest more gates??


This is only a few acres. There is the gate in the top right and the one across from the barn and pond. On the outside of the top part of the fence, winding around to the barn is the driveway. We have moved the driveway to take advantage of extra pasture and so that I (disabled) wouldn't have to open more gates.

I can assure you I am not necessarily excited about the thought of running the wire through the holes. However, we have those insulators with pins on our other pasture. When the power went out, the goats and pig went through and broke a ton of the insulators. I am assuming that with high tension on this high tensile that wont be so easy to do and the ceramic wont break as easily.

If either of you @Bruce or @greybeard think the ceramic is weaker and my plan wont work let me know so I don't waste the money!



Bruce said:


> bury a "hot feed" in conduit under the gate


This is what we did for our other fence. I would hate to have to undo hot wire every time I want to go through the gate.



Bruce said:


> Make a "story pole"


I have never heard this term but I was planning on making one just to make the job easier.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

This might help some. I took some google map pics and the rough outlines of our property and the new fence. 


 
Every thin within the blue is ours. The light blue area by the barn is an existing fence, woven wire. The red is where we are putting it now. The white line is where the new driveway is. We did this so I do not have to get out of the car or off the 4 wheeler or tractor to open gates. 



 
This is a closer image of the new fence outline. The light blue are the posts (approx locations) and the purple is where the gates will be. 

The goal is to be able to drive to the barn. Enter through a man door into the feed stall, then from the feed stall to the rest of the barn. We also have the option of driving through the barn.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

@greybeard We are definitely using a spinning Jenny!


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## Bruce (Oct 7, 2017)

That all seems reasonable. I believe the ceramic insulators WOULD be stronger than plastic.

I ASSUME your house is the one in the upper left?


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

@Bruce, yes, the house in the top left is mine. To the right of it is our steep goat pasture, partly open and part woods. Between the driveway and below the house is the hay field. The rest also needs to be fenced in. We use all 4x6 rough cut oak for the posts and use high tensile because we are planning ahead for bison. This way all of our different pastures will be able to handle the bison.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

Yesterday, I went to an Agribility meeting for veterans. They wanted to know if there were enough people who were interested in starting a Farmer Veteran Coalition chapter in TN. While there, I met some really great people. Some of them wanted to get a work party together and actually help me finish that fence. I couldn't believe it. I do not usually get involved in things like this, I like to get things done myself.


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## Mike CHS (Oct 7, 2017)

@dejavoodoo114 - you might be interested in checking out the Tennessee Katahdin Sheep Association.  They group was only started two years ago but it has an active membership from TN and all of the neighboring states.  There are two meetings each year and one of those is the Fall Sheep Sale.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

@Mike CHS - sheep are not one of the livestock animals we have considered for our farm. My husband and I were just talking about where we are going next, what we want to keep, our ultimate goals etc... We want Bison, Nubians, and Red Wattle Hogs. No sheep or cattle. Oh yeah, we do love our Orpingtons.  Of course, if we did get sheep we could actually get our county extension officer to pay attention to us... Still...


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## Mike CHS (Oct 7, 2017)

I guess I haven't been paying attention as I thought you guys had some sheep already.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

Nope, no sheep for us. We have had the goats and chickens for 6 years and pigs for most of that as well.


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## greybeard (Oct 7, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> If either of you @Bruce or @greybeard think the ceramic is weaker and my plan wont work let me know so I don't waste the money!


For line posts, the screw-in lag bolt porcelain insulators should hold up fine. Only problem I've ever had with them was years ago, naively trying to use them on the ends of a run. Pulled the lag bolt right out of the post when I stretched the wire, but I stretch HT pretty tight. 

If you're getting bison, plan on a hot as hades energizer. Lots of insulating hair on them critters and they aren't a bit shy about testing any fence.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 7, 2017)

greybeard said:


> If you're getting bison, plan on a hot as hades energizer. Lots of insulating hair on them critters and they aren't a bit shy about testing any fence.



Thanks! We have a 30 mile charger on about 8 acres at the moment. How hot would you suggest? The main pasture would be around 20 acres.


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## greybeard (Oct 7, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> Thanks! We have a 30 mile charger on about 8 acres at the moment. How hot would you suggest? The main pasture would be around 20 acres.


Most 30 mile chargers are less than 2 joules. A good one like a Parmak Mk8 with 4 jules should do the trick.
When I was living in San Angelo Tx 10 yrs ago, the herd at the state park was contained with 8 strand 3/8 or 1/2 cable on sawed up utility poles for line posts..top cable 5' from ground level. A tall fence is imperative for bison. 

According to Frasier Bison LLC, a group that has lots of experience with them, if electric is the primary containment method, this species is the rare exception to "do not use barb wire for electric fences"

_Electric wire or hot-wire can be an effective tool for certain situations with bison, but should never be relied on for containment by itself. When hot-wire is used, barb wire should be used in order to penetrate the hair coat and deliver a deterring shock. Smooth wire may work if the bison touch it with their nose or short-haired areas, but overall it is not as effective._
Here's some more:
https://frasierbison.com/bison-consultation/bison-fencing/


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## Yamabushi (Oct 8, 2017)

I use powerflex for the high tensile wire and i also use their G2 and fiberglass posts. They have really high quality woven or single strand wire that is pretty much unmatched. They also sell irrigation line (high density) that has pretty much become the industry leader in quality irrigation piping.


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## greybeard (Oct 8, 2017)

The best wire brand, IMO, is Tornado.
Pricey but great wire.


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## Eteda (Oct 11, 2017)

I did my electric fence like that around my garden when in the pasture. It worked great and was only 32" high being an interior fence. It supprise me they didn't jump over it. But I did have the bottom wire 4" off the ground. The baby goats kept trying to go under it and we're trapped on the other side. Then mom would horn the fence.


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## Tokoloshe (Oct 11, 2017)

The porcelain ones have to be threaded and draw ALL the wire through them. The plastic ring insulators you may pull out the wire and slot it onto the insulator by the convenient slit in the side. 

There is no need to use strainers, the fence uses electricity to keep the animals in not the strength of the fence. You do not need to be able to play a guitar solo on the fence. Hand tight is plenty.

High strain wire is difficult to use, 7 strand wire is far easier to use.

These Doughnut corner insulators work very well otherwise simply us a ring insulator and no the wire does not pop off.

The rule for electric fencing is to Keep it Simple, it is really not rocket science.


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## greybeard (Oct 11, 2017)

Depends on species I suppose. My fences have to be tight and hold the animals (brahma influenced full sized cattle) whether the power to the energizer is on or not. 
Liability risks alone in my part of the world requires significant fences, especially in perimeter fencing. I can absorb loss of a $1300 animal, but can't a 1/2 million $ lawsuit if one gets out on the highway and a vehicle hits it if power goes out or if energizer simply decides it's pulsed long enough.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 12, 2017)

Yamabushi said:


> i also use their G2 and fiberglass posts


My posts are 4x6 solid oak. Fiberglass is certainly not going to work. For what we want we need strength on top of electric. 




Tokoloshe said:


> The porcelain ones have to be threaded and draw ALL the wire through them. The plastic ring insulators you may pull out the wire and slot it onto the insulator by the convenient slit in the side.
> 
> There is no need to use strainers, the fence uses electricity to keep the animals in not the strength of the fence. You do not need to be able to play a guitar solo on the fence. Hand tight is plenty.
> 
> ...



I checked both those things out. I don't quite understand the 7 strand wire. What is the difference between that and High tensile? I most certainly will have high strain on my fencing, is that capable of handling heavy tension? Also, because of the high tension on the lines, those corner insulators would not work for us.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 12, 2017)

@greybeard, what do you think? Technically I still have a large perimeter fence to finish for the Bison. There is another ranch here that has bison in 5 strands of barb wire. I keep getting told I am going overboard with the high tensile electric... 

On a good note, my fence parts came in yesterday and I am looking forward to trying to get this fence finished!


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## dejavoodoo114 (Oct 12, 2017)

I just discovered google earth pro!!!! One of the vets coming out to help us finish our fence said that he used it to figure out perimeters and acreage approximation. SOOOO much easier than guessing! Apparently, this little area we are fencing in is around 2.6 acres with 1,000 foot perimeter. Now I actually know how many spools to buy. I can't believe I didn't know about this for our other fences. Heck, I would have finished this fence a few years ago if I would have known it would only take two spools!


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## Bruce (Oct 12, 2017)

You can do it with the Google area calculator as well:
https://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-area-calculator-tool.htm


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## greybeard (Oct 12, 2017)

dejavoodoo114 said:


> I checked both those things out. I don't quite understand the 7 strand wire. What is the difference between that and High tensile? I most certainly will have high strain on my fencing, is that capable of handling heavy tension?


Other than the physical appearance, the primary difference is the amt of carbon in the wire.
HT has more carbon than MT or low tensile wire.
The 7 strand he's linked to is what we in N. America call cable or wire rope. It's a single strand, but is made of 7 individual strands twisted together.
According to the specs on it, it is not (cannot be) stretched tight.
_Medium-tensile wire has a yield point and beyond that it stretches plasticity under tension (Hooke's Law). This point is reached before the wire breaks so that when highly strained in a fence it will not retain its tension over long periods and will stretch. It therefore should not be tensioned to the stage where a guitar solo may be played on it and the wire requires more support stakes and posts to prevent it sagging._
I have no idea how much it weighs/linear ft but is advertised as having a diameter of 1.5mm (1/16" or .0591") with a breaking strength of  200kg (440lbs) .

_
_


_

0.12 Ohms/meter - Brilliant conductivity - Top Quality

Very tightly wound and far superior to Standard 7 strand wires.

7 galvanised filaments stranded together - tough, flexible and easy to use.

400m Spool, 1.5mm diameter

Will outlast all ropes and tapes.
_
Most of the HT single strand wire we use in this country has a breaking strength somewhere north of 1000lbs.


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