# Anyone with Blue Vienna, American Blue and Lilac rabbits?



## Bluebonnet (Mar 1, 2014)

I am looking to add these breeds to my rabbitry.

For those of you who own these breeds, please show me your rabbits!

I just love looking at these adorable bunnies! 

If anyone happens to own these breeds along with the Crème d'argent and American Chinchilla, I would love to see rabbits side by side for color comparison.


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## SA Farm (Mar 1, 2014)

I really like the colours of the blue or grey bunnies. I'm afraid the closest I have is a broken grey mixed buck who throws cute little grey babies like this one:


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 1, 2014)

I like your post only because there is not an 'adore' option. 

Rabbits are so beautiful in general. It is such a shame that so many breeds have become rarities.


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## SA Farm (Mar 1, 2014)

Oh, I know, right? They're still out there, though! It's just a matter of finding and preserving them at this point


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 1, 2014)

SA Farm said:


> Oh, I know, right? They're still out there, though! It's just a matter of finding and preserving them at this point


 
It is my aim to increase my rabbitry to be able to hold 500 rabbits, 100 of each breed, along with five pairs of does and bucks. This way I can secure a good deal of genetic diversity in the event that something happens to other breeder's stocks, but that I have enough space for their offspring. I want to grow all of their food and bedding on site and I will use their manure on my farm.

An individual barn will be dedicated to each breed, along with equipment to be used for each breed.

I want to keep them for show and for breeding in order to increase their registered numbers and quality, while keeping culling to a minimum. It is my hope to start small right now, until I can secure Gold Pedigree breeding stock, with three generations of grand champions going into the breeding, before I proceed to keep and or offer their offspring.

I have a five year plan in mind for my bunnies. 

Finding them is the trick. I have heard that the Blue Vienna is extinct in the United States and barely hanging on in Germany. The American Blue is down to 200-300 rabbits along with the American Chinchilla. I am unsure of the Crème d'argent and Lilac populations.


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## SA Farm (Mar 1, 2014)

I know there are American Chinchilla's here in Ontario, anyway. 
I can't even imagine caring for up to 500 rabbits! 
My rabbitry consists of about 8-10 breeding stock with about 4 grow-out cages. I suddenly feel very small! lol


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 1, 2014)

SA Farm said:


> I know there are American Chinchilla's here in Ontario, anyway.
> I can't even imagine caring for up to 500 rabbits!
> My rabbitry consists of about 8-10 breeding stock with about 4 grow-out cages. I suddenly feel very small! lol


 
I am encouraged by the number of American Chinchilla owners. I think that with a little more time, that an increase in their numbers will find them removed from The Livestock Conservancy's critical list. They have been much easier to locate for sale than the other breeds I am currently seeking.

500 rabbits sounds like a lot, until you factor in their potential.

They will produce many tons of manure that can be added straight into my land, building up the soil quality.

When you consider the cost of rabbit manure, which sells for $1 a pound or so at stores, with how many pounds it takes to fertilize an acre, the rabbits pay for themselves on manure production alone. Rabbits produce over 50 lbs of manure per rabbit, per year. For 500 rabbits, that is 25,000 pounds, which is 12.5 tons of rabbit manure per year. Thus saving me a bundle in the long run, plus the enjoyment I get from aiding cute bunnies survival.

Just take a look at the sold listings on eBay, with some sellers managing to get $5 for a 1/2 pound of manure.

Not to mention the money to be made and or saved from meat, fur, show prizes and sales to fellow rabbit enthusiasts.

Rabbits are a gold mine in a self sustaining situation, which is part of the long term productivity goals for my land.

The plan for my farm is to turn it into an authentic working plantation, with the addition of a Confederate reenacting camp. It is my hope to locate reenactors with skills to hire full time to work the land. Very few reenactors are able to make a living reenacting full time and I wanted to create a unique opportunity.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 3, 2014)

500 rabbits doesn't just sound like a lot, it _is_ a lot. Having had a 75 hole rabbitry for almost 30 years, I can tell you, it's a lot of work. Trying to grow all of the food for that many rabbits as well as caring for them would take an amazing amount of time. Something I'm not sure about is how this feeding program would affect the show potential of the offspring. I know that rabbits fed on a mainly forage diet take a bit longer to reach slaughter weight, does anyone know how this affects the flesh condition and coat condition of the rabbit? An animal can be in the peak of health, but if it doesn't fit with the judge's concept of the ideal, it won't win at a show.

I'm not quite sure where you learned about the Gold Pedigree thing. I've been breeding rabbits for almost 30 years, most of that as a member of the ARBA, and this is the first time I've heard anything about it. Is it a new program? What I have heard of is various levels regarding registration. If a rabbit is the only one on its pedigree that is registered, the seal on the registration certificate is just embossed. Depending on the number of generations of registered rabbits, the seal will be different colors. 

In order for a rabbit to become a Grand Champion, it needs to be registered, and it must win at least 3 Grand Champion legs. A Grand Champion leg is awarded when a rabbit wins in a class of at least 5 rabbits, owned by at least 3 rabbit breeders. In the case of a rare breed, finding two other breeders with your breed at a show can be tough. I have known breeders that entered their own rabbits under other family members' names just to make up the "3 breeders" quota so that the wins at a show will count - which made the wins a great deal less impressive. If I'm only competing against the rabbits in my own rabbitry, as long as they are showable, they don't really have to be all that good, do they? 

My experience has been that, even with excellent breeding stock, a lot of the offspring will not be of quite the same quality as the parents. Some will be even better, yes, but some will be just run-of-the-mill. It can take a while to learn the fine points of a particular breed. Learning which rabbits are worth showing, and which should be eaten, takes a while - and even top breeders make mistakes. Every one can tell you about a rabbit that they sold because it had a litter mate that they liked better, that wound up beating the one they kept at some later show!

Your ambition to help support these rare breeds is admirable, but I think you should narrow your focus a bit. Concentrating on one or two breeds at first will allow you to learn exactly what makes an excellent representative of those breeds, and gain a reputation as a reputable breeder with good stock. Too many people get a few of these, a few of those, etc, and wind up being more like collectors rather than good breeders, because they are trying to do too many things at once and not really moving forward. Just my two cents' worth.


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 3, 2014)

Bunnylady, the pedigree is sealed with different colors. The gold pedigree simply means that the parents, grandparents and great grandparents of the rabbit were all grand champions. That's it.

I am connecting with other breeders in the hopes of getting them to show. Furthermore, it is my hope to start my own annual show on my plantation. That is a project for 2016, however.

I have many, many acres with a bundle of plantings. Other land is still unable to be used because it needs to be cleared of invasive Chinese tallow and other land is being preserved as Texas Coastal Prairie.

This is a large operation and undertaking, which is why I am taking it slow, with a five year plan for the bunnies.

Better to take things slow then to get in way over my head.


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## Bossroo (Mar 4, 2014)

Bluebonnet , you are well on your way to making a million.  How ?  To make a million ,just spend 3 million ! I would consult a VERY GOOD tax attorney before you proceed any further with your various dream ventures.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 4, 2014)

Is this gold seal  something that one particular breeder does? Because each breeder writes their own pedigrees, there are no seals affixed to pedigrees by any official group. The only official records kept are on the things that happen at shows (assuming that the show secretary gets their report in) and registrations. Until a particular rabbit is registered at its adult size (usually 6-8 months of age), the ARBA has no record of it.

ARBA sanctioned shows are hosted by chartered clubs that are recognized by the ARBA, or else by something like a county or state fair. They take a lot of dedication and hard work on the part of the club members to pull off. Getting people to come to a show and spend the money on gas and entry fees is getting harder to do; these days, most groups are hosting double or triple shows to make them more attractive. That means, among other things,  getting several judges to come, and having a large enough facility to accommodate so many breeders, their rabbits, and their vehicles. A lot of the clubs I know hold their shows together, with each club being responsible for one show, at a common facility (like a fair ground or livestock arena). You really are ambitious if you are thinking of hosting your own show!


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 4, 2014)

Bossroo said:


> Bluebonnet , you are well on your way to making a million.  How ?  To make a million ,just spend 3 million ! I would consult a VERY GOOD tax attorney before you proceed any further with your various dream ventures.


 
I am a firm believer that if you do what you love, that money will follow.

I have no concern of taxes. I make good money on interest alone, so I do not have to worry about turning a profit, I can just focus on doing what makes me happy.

If there is a way to beat Edward H. Stahl's record of being the only person to make a million dollars from rabbits, I have no doubt that I will find it.


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 4, 2014)

Bunnylady said:


> Is this gold seal  something that one particular breeder does? Because each breeder writes their own pedigrees, there are no seals affixed to pedigrees by any official group. The only official records kept are on the things that happen at shows (assuming that the show secretary gets their report in) and registrations. Until a particular rabbit is registered at its adult size (usually 6-8 months of age), the ARBA has no record of it.
> 
> ARBA sanctioned shows are hosted by chartered clubs that are recognized by the ARBA, or else by something like a county or state fair. They take a lot of dedication and hard work on the part of the club members to pull off. Getting people to come to a show and spend the money on gas and entry fees is getting harder to do; these days, most groups are hosting double or triple shows to make them more attractive. That means, among other things,  getting several judges to come, and having a large enough facility to accommodate so many breeders, their rabbits, and their vehicles. A lot of the clubs I know hold their shows together, with each club being responsible for one show, at a common facility (like a fair ground or livestock arena). You really are ambitious if you are thinking of hosting your own show!


 
I have read where some breeders refer to this seal. They probably mean it is the red, white and blue seals from ABRA to prove the lineage and that the rabbit in question has also become a Grand Champion.

I know that ARBA sanctions shows and how to apply for all of that. I'm looking into getting the training to be an ABRA judge myself, so I can learn to tell which of my rabbits are the best, so I can enter them into shows. I will pay for the costs to make it happen myself if I have to, even if that means that in order to prevent a conflict of interest that I can not enter my own rabbits in the show. Besides, it is a good way to establish a positive reputation in the community by hosting others and getting together for a good time.

I believe that if you are not genuinely enjoying what you do, you should not be doing it. Where there is happiness there is passion and when there is passion there is not only money, but new heights of greatness to be achieved.

I am quite ambitious. It is my plan to install a fair style facility on my property, in addition to many other things like a farmer's market and a Confederate recreation. It is no small undertaking and not only the facilities, but the legal aspects are all very specific requirements, not to mention that these facilities must be located well away from my animals, for biosecurity purposes.

I plan to have a lot going on at my plantation. It just takes time to build it all up, because of all the permits and considerations to be made and the development of the land and everything else.

I want people to be able to come out and have an experience that they can not get anywhere else.

It should be a vision for a unique annual showing experience that will capture and captivate the attentions and bring joy into the hearts of all who partake in it.


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## Bossroo (Mar 5, 2014)

So what is the size of  your  "plantation"  and what does it produce  ?


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## Bunnylady (Mar 5, 2014)

Bluebonnet said:


> I'm looking into getting the training to be an ABRA judge myself, so I can learn to tell which of my rabbits are the best, so I can enter them into shows. I will pay for the costs to make it happen myself if I have to, even if that means that in order to prevent a conflict of interest that I can not enter my own rabbits in the show. Besides, it is a good way to establish a positive reputation in the community by hosting others and getting together for a good time.




Ummmm . . . . . .

I'm sorry, but this is 180 degrees, completely_ backwards_. You don't become a judge to learn about rabbits; you expand on your knowledge about rabbits to become a judge. A person has to have the backing of the rabbit breeding/showing community and have been working in it for several years before they are even allowed to apply for a judge's licence. 

And sad to say, most judges are only really knowledgeable about a few breeds. Just like the rest of us, they read the breed standard and try to apply it to the animal sitting in front of them. You can read the breed standard until you can quote it verbatim, and the ink comes off the pages, and still not really "know" the breed. 

Here's an example of what I mean. I have been breeding Harlequins for a long time. Harlequin is a breed that you don't see every day, and it is a marked breed, meaning that a lot of the points are awarded or deducted depending on the rabbit's markings. A few years ago, I had a Black Magpie doe named Magic. Magic had a good split on her face, though there was a fair amount of brindling on the dark side of her face. Her body only had 3 or 4 bands, but they were very clear, with hardly any brindling at all. This is the opposite of most Harlies, which typically show more brindling on the body than they do on the face. 

At one show that I took her to, a judge that I'd never seen before practically sneered at her. She clearly wanted to DQ her for the limited body banding, but since there were more than the minimum called for by the standard ("Disqualify for body marking (only a single) resembling a Dutch belt and saddle marking") she couldn't. I don't remember all of her remarks, but I do remember her parting comment, "I don't _even_ know what to say about that body!" She placed Magic last in a class of 5.

Two weeks later, Magic won Best Opposite Sex of Breed against many of the same rabbits, under a judge that was a longtime Harlequin breeder (and who had been so instrumental in developing and promoting the Harlequin breed, she had been granted a lifetime membership by the AHRC).  Now, which judge's opinion do you think I valued (and not just because she offered to buy the rabbit)? At least two other judges shared that opinion, because Magic won 3 grand champion legs before I retired her (unfortunately, because there were 2 great-grandparents missing on her pedigree, she wasn't eligible for a Grand Championship).

My point is, you need experience with a breed to know what "good" is, and there are no shortcuts for that. You can't read your way to it, you can't just buy it, you need to have your hands on the actual animals.  Particularly with the rarer breeds, you need mentors with a passion for that breed, who are willing to pass their knowledge on. You frequently see judges confabbing with these breeders at shows, getting pointers on what the_ breeders_ look for. That's where the knowledge is, and that's where anyone needs to go that is interested in preserving or bettering an endangered breed.


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 5, 2014)

Bossroo said:


> So what is the size of  your  "plantation"  and what does it produce  ?


 
It is a work in progress. I'm having a photographer come out to document what I am doing out here so I can keep a scrapbook for my family history.

I grow all sorts of things, rather than sticking to bulk quantities of any one thing. I am something of a 'collector' of different kinds of heirlooms. I'm over on The Easy Garden and I have a thread with what all I have growing if that is of interest.

I know that the definition of a plantation is one that dedicates a certain amount of acreage to at least one of the tradition plantation crops, but I am only at the beginning stages of development. I'll update with plenty of pictures.

The main thing that is in the way at the moment is fighting back some of this invasive Chinese tallow and making the land suitable and correctly fertilized before planting. It's a process. Acres I own and acres that I can actually currently use are two different things.

I would like for my plantation crop to be sugar cane, but it depends on how well it will fair in my area. I do not want to plant a bunch and then have it fail, so I am testing a small spot to see how it does.


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## Bluebonnet (Mar 5, 2014)

Bunnylady said:


> Ummmm . . . . . .
> 
> I'm sorry, but this is 180 degrees, completely_ backwards_. You don't become a judge to learn about rabbits; you expand on your knowledge about rabbits to become a judge. A person has to have the backing of the rabbit breeding/showing community and have been working in it for several years before they are even allowed to apply for a judge's licence.
> 
> ...


 
It is part of my five year plan for my rabbits and I. There is no substitute for experience.

Sorry about your rabbit and that judge. Even if you have a problem with someone else's rabbit, you should not make rude comments.

The problem with the breeds I am interested in is that not only are breeders few and far between, but so are people who have mentorship potential and who live close by.

You can not just go to a show, chat with someone who knows about these breeds for a few minutes and consider yourself well learned. That seems completely backwards to me. How can you claim to be a judge and only be experienced with a few breeds and even then, getting your information from some conversations from breeders who are keen to get you to look kindly upon their rabbits? That seems like a huge conflict of interest to me.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 5, 2014)

"Chat with someone . . . for a few minutes?" You have never been to a rabbit show, have you?

Maybe rabbit people work with (nearly) mute animals because they never try to get word in, but rabbit people talk. And_ talk_. They are, if possible, worse than horse people. If a rabbit breeder calls another on the phone and the conversation lasts less than an hour, it's because one of them had some sort of emergency (or a dying phone battery). 

With 48 breeds in the ARBA standard, it isn't reasonable to think that a judge could know everything there is to know about each one - a rabbit show judge is really just an advanced hobbyist with a life and a job that are often completely separate from rabbits, after all. Yes, there are exams that the applicant must pass at the beginning of the application process, but they are just the starting point. A judge will most likely see a lot of the more popular breeds at shows, so they naturally will be well versed in what to look for with them. A judge is supposed to have a copy of the ARBA Standard of Perfection with them at a show, and it is expected that they will consult it while judging. The standard itself gets updated every 5 years, and there are continuing education classes for the judges, but the human brain can only retain so much. It's the old "use it or lose it;" if they don't regularly see a particular breed, why would they remember all the details of it?

If a judge really wants to know about a breed, he knows where to find the information. I remember one show where another Harlie breeder and I spent well over an hour nitpicking each rabbit in each class for a judge that had stated that his ambition was to get chosen to judge Harlequins at the ARBA Convention (we let him judge the class first, then offered our evaluations of the particular strengths and weaknesses of the various animals. Sometimes our placements concurred with his, sometimes they didn't, but then, sometimes we didn't agree with each other, either!) 

Because the judges travel to shows, they have the opportunity to talk to lots of breeders, but it still depends on their level of interest. I can't tell you how many times I've heard conversations that went something like this: 
"So, who's judging us in the first show?" 
"Mr. A."
"Oh, he's good. I like him. Who do we have for the second?"
"Mr. B."
Oh, no. He's a commercial judge. You can throw everything he says right out the window. Oh, well, who's doing the third show?" (In this case, the breed in question was the Jersey Wooly).

You want to know a breed? Go to the people who are passionate about it, rather than the guy who may be just trying to get through the class before the lunch break. The judge will be as fair and impartial as is possible, but his idea of the ideal animal may or may not tally with that of the person who actually raises them.


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## Farmin' Girl (Mar 6, 2014)

Hey there! I am new to this site, but I do own 2 pure pedigreed American Blues I purchased recently. They are 2 1/2 months old, and are very friendly. Their names are Hutch and Dixie. (For some reason I am having problems getting my pics to show up on here. Any ideas?)


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## Bunnylady (Mar 7, 2014)

Farmin' Girl said:


> Hey there! I am new to this site, but I do own 2 pure pedigreed American Blues I purchased recently. They are 2 1/2 months old, and are very friendly. Their names are Hutch and Dixie. (For some reason I am having problems getting my pics to show up on here. Any ideas?)


There's been a rule on this website that you can't post pics until you've made a certain number of posts - 10, I think? (It's been quite a while since the last time I looked this rule up; the forum has changed quite a bit since then!) That may be the problem.


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## Farmin' Girl (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks! That explains it


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## Farmin' Girl (Mar 30, 2014)

Don't know if this photo will come up or not.


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## Farmin' Girl (Apr 6, 2014)

Finally! I can now post pics, and here they are.
I have 4 total American Blues.
This is Dixie, the youngest and my personal favorite.


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