# Help with breed selection



## Scooby308 (Mar 4, 2014)

I have been planning on a dairy breed for some time but work and finances have been drawing me away from my plans of a farm. Now it appears that I may be up and ready by July of this year. I have a few questions.

The farm has 10 acres of pasture that will be fenced with high tensile electric. It is located in NE KY. I intend to use rotational grazing. I will also have at least 2 beef cattle a year that will use those same pastures. I hope to be able to buy an additional 13 acres that will be used as my hay field. 

I am looking for a dairy breed  that is affable to people. I am looking for a miniature breed with herd size of 5 does. If I can handle that I may ramp up to larger breeds. I am planning on at least 1 buck to keep them fresh when needed. The plan is to produce all our dairy needs on the farm. There are just the two of us so any extra will be used for barter, given away, or used to supplement the chicken and hog feed.

So now it comes the time for all the opinions (which I am asking for). What is the best mini breed of dairy goat and please explain the pros and cons of each breed. I have read volumes and visited a few farms. I guess I am looking for more options.   

Thanks in advance,
Christopher


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

Nigerians are considered the miniature dairy breed, they are very personable and wonderfully friendly. However "mini's" that are developed by crossing a standard size dairy breed to a Nigerian Buck are excellent producers. Often  not quite as small as a nigie but will yeild, more often than not, a higher output.
We have Nigerian Dwarfs, Lamanchas, and mini-manchas.... others use the,Nubians or Alpine as the standard doe crossed with the Nigie.

Starting out with Standards really isn't much different. LArger goats are harder on the land though. The dwarfs feed/output ratio is the best. FAr better than standard breeds.

Kinder goats are established as a breed that is considered duel purpose... milk meat as the cross was with a Pygmy buck (meat goat).

Cattle should be tested for Johnnes because goats can also get Johnnes.  Goats, before you purchase them should also be tested for Johnnes.

Whenever our goats go to a farm with cattle we let them know about this as all our goats are tested for Johnnes.

Everyone will advocate for their breed LOL, truly it is best IMO to visit different farms with different goats and see what strikes you.

Many hate the Lamancha because of the "no ears" personally they are my fav as a standard dairy breed. They are QUIET! and personable... but highly intelligent. A smart goat for sure. Some like the long eared Nubians.... LOL I don't care for floppy ears and hate how loud they are BUT.... it boils down to preference. Not necessarily what is the best. Everyone thinks their breed is best.

Be careful when buying Sanaans, Toggs... as they may have yucky milk. Always taste the milk. Milk taste will be influenced by kind of feed and also if a buck is running with the does, which is gross... the milk will smell and taste like buck pee.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks Southern.

The original plan, many years ago, was for Boers. Then time and life happened. Now it is just the two of us and I am looking at being as self sustaining as possible. The plan is to have four 2.5 acre pastures for the rotation. I would like to eventually raise good breeding stock to keep my own herd up or for sale. I feel that we should have no problem raising a mini herd of up to ten on that setup. But the idea of too many bucklings per year means that we would be putting meat in the freezer. IDK. I grew up on a horse farm most of my life from 4-18 years of age. I spent 2 years living on a guys farm managing his cattle and chickens (my Lord 100 gamecocks in 100 runs plus 40 some hens). I have even milked a few cows in my day. Helped a neighbor with his hogs as a kid. But this goat thing has me stumped. I actually have a 5 inch binder of research on Boers from back in the day. But dairy goats seem to have me pondering way too hard. It is a new animal I have little experience with or research in.

I guess I should ask, What are the pros and cons of full size vs. minis?


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 4, 2014)

I have Nubians and Pygmies...and have milked both.  Nubian milk is wonderful, but Pygmy milk is incredibly sweet and creamy.  As far as taste - it beats any other milk that I've tasted - hands down!

I also have several first generation Kinders.  Right now I'm milking a Kinder and a Nubian. Both are right at 10 months into their lactation.  I'm milking just once a day and the Kinder is out-producing the Nubian.....not by much...maybe a quarter cup or so...but she's the winner and is about half the size of the Nubian. And as a bonus - her milk is the best tasting also.  

The "plan" is to eventually phase out the Nubians and most of the Pygmies, but you know how plans are.  They're great until they have a face - and I tend to fall in love with the face and the plan goes out the window, lol.  However, I do intend to concentrate on the Kinders. 

I haven't butchered one yet, but it is on the list of things to do.  Fortunately, all my kinders have either been does or a buck I wanted for breeding 

p.s.  My Nubians aren't particularly noisy.  They are impatient at feeding time, but no more so than any of the other goats...


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

Scooby308 said:


> Thanks Southern.
> 
> The original plan, many years ago, was for Boers. Then time and life happened. Now it is just the two of us and I am looking at being as self sustaining as possible. The plan is to have four 2.5 acre pastures for the rotation. I would like to eventually raise good breeding stock to keep my own herd up or for sale. I feel that we should have no problem raising a mini herd of up to ten on that setup. But the idea of too many bucklings per year means that we would be putting meat in the freezer. IDK. I grew up on a horse farm most of my life from 4-18 years of age. I spent 2 years living on a guys farm managing his cattle and chickens (my Lord 100 gamecocks in 100 runs plus 40 some hens). I have even milked a few cows in my day. Helped a neighbor with his hogs as a kid. But this goat thing has me stumped. I actually have a 5 inch binder of research on Boers from back in the day. But dairy goats seem to have me pondering way too hard. It is a new animal I have little experience with or research in.
> 
> I guess I should ask, What are the pros and cons of full size vs. minis?


I wrote something on this awhile ago... I will see if I can find the link.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 4, 2014)

It is funny how pygmy's are considered meat goats yet I have seen so many that have huge udders and can really put out some milk. The teats are itty bitty though!

I found the link... it isn't a great deal of info but may be helpful.

http://www.backyardherds.com/thread...-first-time-goat-caregiver.27848/#post-352399


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## Scooby308 (Mar 5, 2014)

Ok been reading all night and into today. It would appear that the Nigerian Dwarfs are the ones that seem right for me at this time. There is a couple of farms here in KY that say their does are good producers. From what I have been reading on breeding I would think purchasing does close to home isn't a bad idea. However, to get good genetic diversity I would need a buck (or 2) from no related lines and that means some travel time. I have used AI on horses in the past. Is it the same process with goats and does it take as well?
Make no mistake, I will be doing this the rest of my life and I want a solid foundation herd that I can build on over the years. The one thing I have learned is genetics are key.

Thanks to all thus far and feel free to add any info as you see fit.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 5, 2014)

If you are looking for high, maximum output you will need to look at starred dairy lines. Also I would suggest you take a look at the laws in your state. Many states it is illegal to sell goat milk, cheese.  Having a plan for what you will do with it is important.

And food for thought... You also may want to look at the kind of livestock guardian you more than likely will need.

There are Livestock Guardian Donkeys, Llamas, and Dogs.
As you can clearly see... I do dogs.

When I get time I will provide a link explaining the starred meaning and the notations. 
BTW- Dairy output it only part of the genetics. All too often when one think is focused on others are forgotten. Personally our number one priority is parasite resistance, second- hardiness, if you don't have that IMO you've got nothing. I think that is why I also like breeding the Mini's. Genetic diversity.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 5, 2014)

Anatolian Shepherd is on the list. I have found a few breeders. I was on you sight and like your process of training up a few weeks before releasing them to the new owner. The more I read the more I like the idea of polled in the genetic line. And parasite resistant lines are really a plus. Finding the best stock is going to be the kicker for stat up. One to two gallons a day is what I am looking for initially for output. It will be for personal consumption in the form of milk, cheese, yogurt, etc. Any leftover will go to the hogs, chickens, and dogs. The whole idea is to have the farm be it's own ecosystem that provides year round and is self sustaining. The Walipini is going in this summer with an aquaponic twist. So much to do, so little time.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 5, 2014)

Are you talking 1-2 gallons collectively? Nigies are not going to give you that output individually.
My new bucklings Dam (Lamancha) gives 2 gallons a day.

Sorry my website is not up to date...  I never have the time, I would need to take a hiatus from BYH to do it!


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## Scooby308 (Mar 5, 2014)

LOL! 1-2 a day total for the herd, not per goat. Your site is a nice one. I have been to so many sites it is crazy. IDK, but fences and sheds first (DW would say house, septic, water, etc) then it gets into the stocking. I noticed you have Barred Rocks. Are they hatchery birds or breeder stock? They look better than hatchery stock.


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## rebelINny (Mar 6, 2014)

Good luck with what you decide. Sounds like your leaning towards Nigerians. I raise Mini-Alpine's. LOVE THEM! So much milk and only 1/4 size bigger than the Nigerians. Sweet tempered and not noisy at all. Milk is very much like cow milk with the exception of being a bit creamier/thicker.


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## cybercat (Mar 6, 2014)

A word about LGD. Stay away from the AKC breeders that show.  Only buy one from a working farm, otherwise you will have problems.
I would suggest you visit a few goat breeders of different goat before choosing.  Nigerians are small real small and known for being good at escaping.  Your other Minis might be a better choice as they are bigger but not standard and give almost as much milk as some standards at least in La Manchas.  There is also the Kinders which are both milk and meat.  But you might have to breed them yourself, which takes a pygmy and a Nubian.

Each breed has is special thing.  So visit a few breeders of each to see what the goats are like in Person.  Good Luck on your plans they are sound.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 6, 2014)

I have 3 breeds of goats...Nigerian Dwarfs, Lamancha, Kiko's/New Zealands- Nigies do vary in size. Many of the show breeders are breeding them smaller and smaller. We  have a range with ours and quite a few are over the standard- but I like that. One of ours is over the height standard and weighs 80 lbs. 
I disagree about the escaping. Because the majority of the people I work with in my county and the surrounding counties have Nigerians I can say not one of them, including myself, has issues with their goats escaping and the majority of them only use welded wire for fencing. Welded wire is not something I would recommend but many that have nigies use this as they are very non-challenging. My nigies also respect hotwire and do not try to escape anything. I think more often than not if they are happy, healthy, well fed there isn't an issue.
I do agree visiting as many farms with different breeds to see what fits for you is always good.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 6, 2014)

There are some very good Nigerian breeders in KY, but of course it is a big state. Not sure where you are at.

Of course, depending upon where you are at Ohio too.  There is a farm about 30 minutes from Columbus that have some of the best there is.  I'm hopefully getting a new buckling from him late April, if the dam has one.

Get a good buck.  Best way to approach breeding.

Not sure where Southern got the idea that show breeders are breeding smaller.  Opposite is true.  21" tall does are scoring highest on linear appraisals.  There has even been a proposal with ADGA to raise the maximum height for bucks, but not many are in favor.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 6, 2014)

Originally, years ago, the plan was for boers and I went to many farms in Ky, WVa, and Oh. I was not overly impressed with very many. Now I am on this whole dairy thing. I don't care to travel to get the right stock. Shoot, I had planned a trip to Tx to just few a buck. 

I still have my research to do and appreciate any and all help.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 6, 2014)

OneFineAcre said:


> There are some very good Nigerian breeders in KY, but of course it is a big state. Not sure where you are at.
> 
> Of course, depending upon where you are at Ohio too.  There is a farm about 30 minutes from Columbus that have some of the best there is.  I'm hopefully getting a new buckling from him late April, if the dam has one.
> 
> ...



Gee, because I see them.  Some people are some people aren't. You don't but that has been the trend... hopefully that is changing.
Not sure where it stands now but 3 registries had 3 different requirements a few years back.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 6, 2014)

See, that is my issue. At least with boers I knew what was what. I was planning on breeding stock to sale. Now I am looking for good milkers that are good at feed to milk conversion. And if the majority of that feed can be pasture so much the better. I worked my pastures @5 years ago to produce big strong meat goats. They contain alfalfa, Timothy, and red clover. They are beautiful hay fields now. With the exception of the Timothy I understand that the alfalfa and clover are solid for milkers?


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 6, 2014)

That hasn't been the trend since ADGA recognized Nigerians.

There's really only one registry that matters at this point at least around here.

Once ADGA accepted them, trend was guaranteed to be towards the upper end and it's not just me.  In a Linear Appraisal they are scored on "stature"  Short is the opposite of stature.

The only reason the NDGA exists is for the people who like them shorter and NDGA is not particularly relevant  here.

NDGA is the only registry that says the ideal height is 17-19" which is short.

I know one breeder around here who has stock from an "old school" breeder that are shorter.  I should sell the buck I got from her except he's such a sweetie.

Correction: 2 breeders.  Both proteges of the same farm


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 6, 2014)

Scooby308 said:


> See, that is my issue. At least with boers I knew what was what. I was planning on breeding stock to sale. Now I am looking for good milkers that are good at feed to milk conversion. And if the majority of that feed can be pasture so much the better. I worked my pastures @5 years ago to produce big strong meat goats. They contain alfalfa, Timothy, and red clover. They are beautiful hay fields now. With the exception of the Timothy I understand that the alfalfa and clover are solid for milkers?



Nigerians have the best feed to milk conversion ratio.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 6, 2014)

OneFineAcre said:


> Nigerians have the best feed to milk conversion ratio.


Is that on pasture with little supplemental grains? I did the math work back year ago on boers and had a good growing plan with little grain at all. I do understand that dairies require supplemental feed when lactating.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 6, 2014)

Scooby308 said:


> Is that on pasture with little supplemental grains? I did the math work back year ago on boers and had a good growing plan with little grain at all. I do understand that dairies require supplemental feed when lactating.



Nigerians have the best feed to milk conversion ratio period. Whatever you feed them they are going to be more efficient.
Output is always going to depend on input.  The more you give them, the more they will give you.  They just do it better.

This is of course dependent upon acquiring good stock.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen people on this forum complaining about their Nigerians who only give two cups a day.  They thought they would get 2 quarts a day.  A very good Nigerian gives 2 quarts per day.  A good one gives a quart.  If you are only getting two cups, you got yourself a pet.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 6, 2014)

If you need higher output then getting goats  from those that test and have proven stock is best... although some do not need a great deal of output so less is best for some. Regardless all my goats are pets. LOL But OFA makes a good point. 

Having also seen many years of the show world with canines, there are advantages and disadvantages of looking at a pedigree and seeing titles. We have low, mid, and high out put goats. We will never show our goats because I am way too familiar with the show world and much that goes on in it. Regardless of species there are issues associated with it.

Some really strive for improvement and work very hard at what they are doing, some simply enjoy it, and some care more about a title than anything else. Goats, much like canines, cattle, poultry, sheep...etc.... can be judged by many factors and clearly doing well in the milk tests will give you an idea of the stock you are buying, however that is only part of the bigger picture. Some in their quest for focusing on one aspect, like perfect udders and high output may sacrifice in others. Close line breeding and failing to understand that a goat is a goat and they are more than an udder has led to other problems in the goat world. 

If a goat has an exceptional pedigree and lots of "stars"... great. But  that goat also needs to be able to live on the land and have excellent parasite resistance-by living ON the land, not in a dry lot environment. I also am seeing so many goats having allergies. Seriously... a goat with environmental allergies. IMO When too much of the focus is in one area only than what else is being sacrificed?  If I had the choice of a Nigerian that can produce 2qts a day but has allergies and parasite issues and can't live off the land and a goat that produces 1 qt a day and has excellent parasite resistance, no allergies and lives off the land for the most part... I'm going to pick the 1 qt a day goat.

Same as anything... Give me a registered, unregistered, or a cross... makes no difference if the animal can produce and have superior health, kid well and easily, raise their kids up- than that is a great goat period.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 11, 2014)

Scooby 308,
As is often the case sometimes the original  posters questions get's sidetracked.  One of the things I love about this forum is the free flowing nature of it.  You get people together who are passionate and have different opinions and experiences then that's what you get.
You asked about breeds but seemed to come to Nigerians on your own.  I think they are a great choice, but I am biased.  I also think that the experimental mini's (cross between ND and standard) are a good choice for a homestead.  I think you made a comment earlier about feeding excess milk to pigs, so I feel like production is important to you.  I wish I could have some pigs, that is a great choice.  I've also heard of people giving them the whey from cheese making.  I have also found the breed to be good for many of the things that SBC mentioned.  We've never had a problem with worms.  We have had over 30 kids in 5 years and never had a kidding difficulty.  One thing she didn't mention that we  have observed is that in 5 years we have never had a single case of mastitis.  I think we can take some credit as far as our animal husbandry practices, but I think the breed deserves a lot of the credit too.

My family and I are not "show breeders"  We are just a family who bought 3 pet goats 5 years ago and thought it would be fun if our daughter who was 5 years old at the time showed them in the youth show at the NC State fair.  We have not been disappointed.  it has turned into probably the most enjoyable activity that our entire family participates in together. We have met some wonderfully nice people who are now some of our closest friends.  We show in 4 shows a year now. We never worry about the other kids that our daughter is hanging out with, or her running around the show, or the goat barn.

I have no experience with the dog showing world.  Seems like it might be tough.  I can't compare the two because I have no basis for comparison.

We breed our animals based on what we like.  We have different types of animals. I've got one doe who is 22 1/4' tall.  We are trying to mix different body types, udder shapes, to produce quality dairy goats.  If a judge likes them, great. As far as breeding just for udders, that wouldn't be productive anyway if you are showing.  Udder is only 35 points out of 100 on a show score card.  35 points for general appearance, 20 for dairy strength (used to be called dairy character) 10 for body capacity.

I have been consistent on this forum in advocating that people starting out choose registered stock.  Others say that if you are not showing then it doesn't matter.  I personally like the documentation on an animals history.  But, I'm a bit of a history buff, I've researched my own geneology. 

I would like to clarify one thing though.  Those milk "stars" on an animals pedigree have nothing to do with the results of a " show".  They are based on the results of a milk test.  If you aren't interested in showing, but are interested in output, that is where you should focus and I have a personal example.  We have a doe Ginger who is one of the first we bought.  We knew she was registered, but we didn't really know anything about here history at the time because we were just starting out.  When we got her papers we saw quite a few milking stars in her back ground. She is our best milker.  On her 4th freshening we got a touch over 2 quarts per day from her.  We  just got lucky.  Ginger has never won in the show ring, but we are incorporating her kids into our breeding program.  But, I can tell you she's a great milker but if I don't have documentation then it's just my word.  That's why we are going to enter her into an ADGA supervised  24 milk test in May.  You are observed by an ADGA official milking her out on Thurs.  12 hours later you milk her, the official weighs the milk and takes a sample.  12 hours later you milk her again the milk is weighed and another sample is taken.  The samples are sent to a lab and tested for protein and butter fat content.  There is a formula based on the output, protein and butter fat to determine if a milk star is earned.  If we get this milk star when we sell a kid then we can document what we tell them.  I like data.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 12, 2014)

I thought of something else too.  All of the items that SBC mentions in her last post, I would call related to an animal being "thrifty" or "hardy" something that you definitely want in livestock.

One thing you can research with animals that are registered through their pedigrees is the number of productive years their ancestors had.  I have a buck whose aunt (his sire's twin sister and litter mate) freshened until she was 12 years old.  Sometimes more than once per year.  Knowing that your animals come from stock that had long productive lives is important too.


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## taylorm17 (Mar 12, 2014)

One Fine Acre- I didn't see the question about dog and goat showing. But for whoever asked, I have not showed goats, but have watched videos and researched it. From what I have seen they are fairly similar. you have to 'set' up your goat, walk around the judge, switch sides, the judge touches your goat and such. I've never really shown thought so I am not a very reliable source here.

Edit: Also from what I have read, you also still need to really know your animal.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 12, 2014)

taylorm17 said:


> One Fine Acre- I didn't see the question about dog and goat showing. But for whoever asked, I have not showed goats, but have watched videos and researched it. From what I have seen they are fairly similar. you have to 'set' up your goat, walk around the judge, switch sides, the judge touches your goat and such. I've never really shown thought so I am not a very reliable source here.
> 
> Edit: Also from what I have read, you also still need to really know your animal.



I wasn't really referring on the "how to show".
You are right, hoow you show a goat is similar to what I have seen watching the Westminster Kennel dog show on TV, which we do every year.

My comment  was more in response to comments about the "show world".  SBC said she would never show goats because she was "too familiar with the show world and what goes on it."  from her past experience showing dogs. I think there may be an impression about people being petty, arguing, and cut throat.   I've read other comments to that effect on here as well in reference to showing.

We just haven't experienced any of those issues ourselves.  We have found the people to be very nice.  Of course, there are some people who take it very serious, much more so than we do.  And, we've never showed at an ADGA National Show or anything like that, which I could see being that way.

I guess like all things, it's all what you make of it, or what you want to take from the experience.  I just know what we are looking for.  I'm mostly looking to spend time with my family. Can't speak for others.

That was more what my comment was about.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 12, 2014)

One Fine it is not about show or no show. It is about the whole picture. I would like to say I did not say showing and milk testing were the same thing. I like data also. There again that data is only part of the story. 

The health of a goat is very important. You are on a dry lot- true backyard environment, your animals are dry lotted. Parasite issues will be minimal for you. Not everyone will be raising their goats in that environment so having animals that live off the land and are parasite resistant will be key in that environment. Titles and tests are great but it is never the full picture. 

Great pedigrees can and often do still produce animals that may not quite measure up. There is generally a small percentage that will achieve the highest of "marks". 

You have been in goats for 4-5 years and you have limited experience in the show world. Yes it is fun, yes there are great people, yes there are those that strive for excellence but you still miss the point. I am not anti show at all what is disturbing is how you continually turn this into something it is not. Same goes for milk testing. If you bothered to read earlier posts, based on the posters needs, I did recommend he look at starred dairy goats.

You are raising goats for a fun hobby. I raise goats and all animals on my farm for providing for a family of eleven. For us it is a health and life choice. 

OFA you state that without the milk testing and documentation then it is "just my world". Could be...Some will rely on papers alone. I do not. I take up a stool and sit down and watch the goat get milked. I can see firsthand the output. Most I know in the goat world are milking for their families, they do not care about any of that, they don't have time for that... they simply will milk in front of the person, pull out their quarts milked etc.
IMO both are great measurements. 
I also take home a fecal and run it, after I find out when the last time a goat was de-wormed. I can determine a great deal from that alone. Papers do not tell you that the goat kidded and one kid is always born dead, papers don't tell you that double teats are in the line, papers don't tell you a goat has environmental allergies, papers don't tell you how many offspring have shoulders turned out, poor pasterns and the list goes on. 

There are advantages of registered animals but I think it is fair to all enthusiasts to share the bigger picture. We may agree to disagree. At the end of the day it is not my goal to promote "my breed" or "my way"... it is outreach to the goat community and laying out the bigger picture to help them achieve their desired goals, whether that be registered stock with a desire to potentially show or registered stock for family use, unregistered animals, cross breeds, complete "live off the land" goats etc.

The bigger picture IMO is always the most important thing and many new to the goat world do not have enough experience to know what that entails. Last year we had a woman who had a Boer herd... her animals were dying left and right from parasite blooms and cocci issues. 2012-2013 in NC was one of the worst ever with rain... 3 straight seasons and no real hot summer like usual, many farms lost kids to cocci, many were devastated. The lady decided NO MORE BOERS. She had something like 10 goats die in a matter of weeks, does prolapsing etc... she decided she was going with Kiko's. She wanted to buy 3-4 does, after hearing her story I told her she should wait a few months. Simply, I told her she would be wasting several thousand dollars, because although the Kiko does we had available had no parasite issue, no cocci issues and were extremely hardy you simply cannot take these goats subject them to that kind of environment and think they wouldn't be affected. IMO that would be unethical. We offered to hold the goats. She wasn't happy and in the end we didn't hear back. She was new to goats and had the impression that the kikos were some kind of supergoats. They are super great but still, they are not invincible.

I leave this for food for thought... yes it is a canine story and not goat but the principle still applies. Some years ago when I was working one of my male German Shepherd Dogs in Schutzhund I was at a late night practice/training session. I was looking at the club and sat it to see what was what...A lady beside me was talking about her bitch that was on the field. A Belgian Malinois, she had purchased for $7,000. BTW- this was in the 90's. The dog was in the field working, the protection phase. The lady laughed and said that's my girl... she is a high scorer! (She had attained a SCH III). Then the lady said, "yep she is one heck of a dog but I swear if someone came into my house and threw the sleeve on the ground that dog would be on the sleeve forever, they could rape me, rob my house blind and that dog would never leave the sleeve."

The point to that... Unbelievable accomplishments by the bitch, high scorer, many titles... but not the whole picture. 

To the poster- I apologize in advance for the response. I did however feel the need to respond to OFA and his usual response. For the record I am not "anti" show, I just have many years of experience in that environment... canines, goats, cattle, horses, poultry, etc... still all the same. Pro's and con's to all.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 12, 2014)

OneFineAcre said:


> Scooby 308,
> As is often the case sometimes the original  posters questions get's sidetracked.  One of the things I love about this forum is the free flowing nature of it.  You get people together who are passionate and have different opinions and experiences then that's what you get.
> You asked about breeds but seemed to come to Nigerians on your own.  I think they are a great choice, but I am biased.  I also think that the experimental mini's (cross between ND and standard) are a good choice for a homestead.  I think you made a comment earlier about feeding excess milk to pigs, so I feel like production is important to you.  I wish I could have some pigs, that is a great choice.  I've also heard of people giving them the whey from cheese making.  I have also found the breed to be good for many of the things that SBC mentioned.  We've never had a problem with worms.  We have had over 30 kids in 5 years and never had a kidding difficulty.  One thing she didn't mention that we  have observed is that in 5 years we have never had a single case of mastitis.  I think we can take some credit as far as our animal husbandry practices, but I think the breed deserves a lot of the credit too.
> 
> ...





Southern by choice said:


> One Fine it is not about show or no show. It is about the whole picture. I would like to say I did not say showing and milk testing were the same thing. I like data also. There again that data is only part of the story.
> 
> The health of a goat is very important. You are on a dry lot- true backyard environment, your animals are dry lotted. Parasite issues will be minimal for you. Not everyone will be raising their goats in that environment so having animals that live off the land and are parasite resistant will be key in that environment. Titles and tests are great but it is never the full picture.
> 
> ...






Southern by choice said:


> One Fine it is not about show or no show. It is about the whole picture. I would like to say I did not say showing and milk testing were the same thing. I like data also. There again that data is only part of the story.
> 
> The health of a goat is very important. You are on a dry lot- true backyard environment, your animals are dry lotted. Parasite issues will be minimal for you. Not everyone will be raising their goats in that environment so having animals that live off the land and are parasite resistant will be key in that environment. Titles and tests are great but it is never the full picture.
> 
> ...



Edited:

I wrote a very snarky reply last night.  Going to delete, declare a truce and let SBC have the last word.


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## Scooby308 (Mar 13, 2014)

No harm, no foul. I grew up on a horse farm and know the ins and out of registration. 

The best pedigreed stud and mare still throw duds. It happens. But their offspring bring a considerably higher price come sale time. 

Conversely I remember going to the Red Mile and my GF buying a pacer that he spent the summer converting to a trotter. We showed him three times that summer. My GF paid $200 for him and sold him for $3500. That horse had all his papers as a pacer, and was a looser. Trained him to trot, and was a fabulous show horse. We used to also buy broke down horses from the Amish, fatten them up and train them. They would make great roadsters. 

So there are pros and cons in each camp with horses and I would guess that is true with goats.


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 19, 2014)

I won't be able to give an answer that will fulfill all of the criteria of your inquiry because I don't deal with miniature breeds of goats. I can tell you about what I have.
I wanted Golden Guernseys but people can WANT a lot of things. I decided that it'd be a good idea to try and find a few good goats first and worry about the breed later. I brought home a Nubian doe, a Nubian x Alpine  doe and a Nubian x Alpine buck (unrelated). Those three were the foundation of my goat herd. They all had nice temperament, loved grass/hay and required only a little feed in the evening. The Nubian had a really nice frame and gave a good bit of milk. The Nubian x Alpine was a little smaller but still had a nice frame and she gave a good bit of milk as well. A major difference that I noticed was that the Nubian x Alpine gave a richer milk than the Nubian did. This was important to me because I make cheese (hard cheeses, chevre is overrated).
Fast forward a few years and I have a nice sized herd. All are at least 1/2 Nubian because I like their frame size and growth rate and at least 1/4 Alpine because of their milking qualities. There is a touch of Boer here and there, a few have a tad of Kiko and two are Toggenburgs. 

In a nutshell, my goats are mutts. I won't keep anything that is aggressive or doesn't meet my specifications and I have a nice herd because of it. If you are wanting to go the route of having a smaller breed then make sure you are getting what you want and not just little brush goats. Nothing against a brush goat, they just don't make good milkers.


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