# Bottle Baby Advice Needed!



## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 30, 2014)

Hi everyone! I am new to BYH, and need advice. We just brought home a little Red Angus "leppy" heifer yesterday! New to the bottle baby thing, we had a steer calf last year that was a bottle baby but not by the time we got him. Unfortunately he died at about 5 months old of unknown causes. So I am very much in need of advice regarding the new baby girl. Anyone out there that is knowledgeable on bottle feeding and weaning, and what to watch for??? All help and advice is appreciated.


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## Azriel (Mar 30, 2014)

First, don't over feed, a hungry calf is a healthy calf. Stay with the all milk based replacer.  Make sure she is warm, dry and out of drafts.
What are your plans for her, future cow or freezer? I think people wean their bottle calves way to early. If I'm growing them for a future breeding cow, I don't wean them till they are about 5months and on both grass and feed. I don't like the  the skinny pot bellied look of the calves weaned at 2 months. Might cost more, but thats my choice.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 30, 2014)

She is about 3 weeks old from a ranch locally. she is from an older cow and the cow didn't get back up after calving so the ranch hands put her down. the calf was taken to the barn and fed by admission of the hand who met us, usually a bottle and a half in the mornings and SOMETIMES another bottle in the evening if they could get back over there to feed her. She is a bit thin. we picked her up at 10:00 PDT yesterday morning which the hand said she had one bottle that morning, we fed her a bottle at about 12:30pm after we got her home and she had time to settle for about an hour or so. she drank like she hadn't eaten. we gave her one more bottle at 6:00pm. so as far as I know or am concerned she had 4 quarts yesterday. We fed her at 7:45 this morning 2 qts, and again at 1:45pm 2 qts, and plan for another at 7:45 this evening. She does not appear to have been drinking water, we have a 2 gallon bucket and it was full to the rim still, so maybe she just hasn't figured that out. she does not eat hay or grain yet. Am I feeding too much bottle? and how do I get her to start water? I tried letting her suck my fingers and pull her head down to the bucket, but that doesn't work, so I just dip my fingers in the water and then she sucks the water off them.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 30, 2014)

using my beef tape I measured her at 36.5 inches so I figure she is about 160 pounds. is that normal for her age?


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 30, 2014)

and she is super hungry at each bottle. today she was trying to bump the bottle too, so cute!


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## jhm47 (Mar 30, 2014)

You're lucky she's 3 weeks old, or she'd have scours by now.  Every milk replacer that I'm familiar with is to be fed twice daily, and 2 quarts per feeding.  Overfeeding kills more calves than anything else.  Feed her two quarts per feeding, and only twice a day.  Most calf starters are formulated for dairy calves, and a Holstein calf will almost always be 10 - 20 lbs heavier than a Red Angus calf.  Start her on a top quality calf starter as soon as possible.  She will learn to drink water when she needs it.  Getting her started on calf starter will encourage her to start on the water also, as she will need to drink more in order to digest the dry starter.  Good luck with your calf!


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 30, 2014)

so should I give her a bottle then tonight? and then just go to two a day beginning tomorrow? I was only concerned she was undernourished because of only getting one bottle a day :-( I don't wanna make her sick tho.


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## jhm47 (Mar 30, 2014)

If I were you, I'd give her a quart (and a half measure of replacer) tonight.  Then tomorrow you can start on the twice daily feedings.  Don't try to correct mistakes that occurred in the past, just focus on doing things right from now on and she'll be fine.  The fact that she survived 3 weeks of mistakes is a good sign.  However, if she had been overfed from birth to now she'd likely not have survived.  As you have noticed, calves appear to be starving when they finish their bottle.  This is actually due to their sucking reflex not being satisfied, not because they are overly hungry.  Just today, I watched some of my newborn calves as they sucked on their mothers.  They drank rapidly for a couple minutes, and then switched from teat to teat and seemed to be playing for about 20 minutes.  I know they are getting plenty of milk from their mothers, but they need to have a certain amount of time just sucking and playing to be satisfied.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 30, 2014)

ok I will do that, just so it's not such a span from this afternoon til tomorrow morning. Thank you for responding so quickly! We let her suck our fingers when she finishes the bottle until she seems disinterested.


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## Azriel (Mar 30, 2014)

If she still wants to suck when done with the bottle, put some calf starter in her mouth and let her get a taste of it. I just let them suck on the heel of my hand and trickle the feed into their mouth it'll take a few days, but she will start eating it, I just leave a bucket of starter in the pen and then you won't worry about her starving between feedings. If you really want to feed her 3 times a day you could divide the 4 quarts into 3 feedings, but really 2 feedings a day are fine.


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## greybeard (Mar 30, 2014)

SCLeppyLvr said:


> using my beef tape I measured her at 36.5 inches so I figure she is about 160 pounds. is that normal for her age?


Are you measuring at the right place, just behind front legs?
What is her body condition-------thin--moderate, or fleshy body? Your tape should have 3 different indexes on it--maybe 4 (very fleshy)

Hard to say what her correct weight should be, since we don't know her birth weight, but 160lbs is pretty dang heavy for 3 weeks old imo for one being stressed thru movement and no momma--as well as an unknown actual feeding regimen.
Angus average birth weights run anywhere from 60-80 lbs, (with heifer's calves being near the low end of the average). It can go up depending on the actual length of gestation--which we also don't know. BUT, the breed average is still around 64 lbs based on 285 days gestation.
But, let's say her BW was a heavy 80 lbs. 3 weeks later, you said she weighs 160lbs.  That's 80lb of gain in 3 weeks on a bottle.

Industry average for beef calves to shoot for is 2lbs weight gain per day. 3 weeks (21 days) on the bottle will hopefully get you 42 lbs of gain.
You are nearly x2 that.
I would think....
1. Your measurement is off.
2. It was a heck of a big calf at birth.
3. It is older than 3 weeks old.

The chart I have in front of me shows an average of 120lbs for a 4 week old Angus that had a BW of 66 lbs.


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 30, 2014)

You're getting pretty sound advice on here, the only thing I'd add is that you might want to get a packet of electrolyte powder and keep it handy. I've had several bottle calves and anytime they'd get fussy about taking their bottle of milk I'd give them a bottle of electrolytes, they'd take it right down and at the next feeding they would take right to their milk. I generally use Sav-a-calf or something similar, there is a brand around here called 'Faithway' and it separates very easily and the calves turn their nose up to it. Be mindful of the quality of milk replacer you use and you'll have a healthy calf.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 31, 2014)

i got two packets of Merrick's calf electrolytes just in case. She got 1/2 a bottle last night (1 qt) mixed with 6 oz. milk replacer (IFA brand w/ Bovatec), this morning a regular 2 qt bottle and we won;t give another til this evening. we are getting some calf starter today because all i had was triple mix (corn, oats & barley w/o molasses) we gave her a little alfalfa hay too because she lips around in it now and then. Here she is... gives anyone an idea of her size. I do know she came from one of their older cows which is why she is bigger they said. And her age is approximate, 3 - maybe 4 weeks. She was tryin' to lick my daughter's face in the third pic.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 31, 2014)

oh and yup i measured right behind her front legs and pulled taught. it read 36.5 - 37" so you tell me what her body condition is, i figured thin which then said 159-171 lbs. from what i recall, but i don't have a tape in front of me.


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## jhm47 (Mar 31, 2014)

Judging from your pictures, this calf is most definitely NOT thin.  She appears to me to be in very good shape.  She's black, not red.  I'd guess her weight at 120 - 140 lbs, although it's hard to tell with just pictures.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 31, 2014)

ok! that's great news! thanks! i know the ranch has black and red and the steer calf i got last season was supposed to be a X, he came to us red in color but he started to turn black a few weeks later. when he died he was all black. So i am not sure what she will do, the ranch hand told me she's red. but i guess we'll see what color she actually ends up.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Mar 31, 2014)

BTW does anyone know if Angus give good milk? Just in case we get to that point in time and can't butcher her? I was thinking i should have a backup plan, maybe breed her or use her as a nurse cow for a new leppy?


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 31, 2014)

Good looking girl. I've never heard of an Angus giving much more milk than what her calf would drink. They make good mommas and their docile nature disappears when they have a calf on the ground at which time they become rather protective but no where near some other breeds I have dealt with.


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## greybeard (Mar 31, 2014)

Tapes are an estimate at best and have a large margin of error. Only accurate way to know is to weigh her.
But........
My tape reads:
thin & 36.5"=165lbs.
thin & 37"=171lbs.
I would call her about 135lbs just from the pics with a fleshy to moderate condition.
She looks good no matter what her actual weight is.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 2, 2014)

So good news! I was not measuring the milk replacer right that first day and a half!  i didnt realize theres a cup in that thar bag and when i found it i found i was actually under measuring by about a cup worth! So i wasnt really over feeding her bottles! started her on calf starter 14% protien but only about a cup twice a day is this too much????


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## M.L. McKnight (Apr 3, 2014)

That cup makes a tad over two quarts. If she will eat it, I'd say feed it. I know some who feed 4gal a day and have heard of some feeding ONLY one bottle a day for 8 weeks then putting the calves on full feed. (*I don't agree with the last one I mentioned.) I believe in feeding my calves well to ensure that their digestive tract develops fully. 

My bull calf began eating feed and hay when he was 1 1/2 days old, drank water like a big cow and took two bottles a day like a champ! He got up to 7 1/2 bottles a day (plus feed and hay) then I tapered them off to wean him. I weaned him starting last week and take him a couple of bottles with warm water in the morning, I tried 'cold turkey' but he pitched a fit and took off after the chickens! The warm water makes him think he is getting something good and ensures that he minds his P's and Q's.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 6, 2014)

Good Morning! So update is she drinks two 32 qt bottles a day, I have been offering calf starter and she does eat it but not all of it, we give a scoop that measures 1 3/4 c. twice a day but there is usually leftover from the last scoop in her feeder. we just keep her feeder full of alfalfa hay so she can eat what she likes. I know she at least gets her head in there because she has flakes on her head all the time. she doesn't seem to drink much water, I have only a 2 1/2 gal bucket in her pen (to try and keep track) and she hasn't even emptied it once yet. We try to show her and hand feed her some. I try to get her to suck on my hand while bringing her to it and she backs off as soon as she gets close. should I be worried? also she is very ready for her bottles each feeding, is she getting enough to eat?


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 6, 2014)

SCLeppyLvr said:


> Good Morning! So update is she drinks two 32 qt bottles a day, I have been offering calf starter and she does eat it but not all of it, we give a scoop that measures 1 3/4 c. twice a day but there is usually leftover from the last scoop in her feeder. we just keep her feeder full of alfalfa hay so she can eat what she likes. I know she at least gets her head in there because she has flakes on her head all the time. she doesn't seem to drink much water, I have only a 2 1/2 gal bucket in her pen (to try and keep track) and she hasn't even emptied it once yet. We try to show her and hand feed her some. I try to get her to suck on my hand while bringing her to it and she backs off as soon as she gets close. should I be worried? also she is very ready for her bottles each feeding, is she getting enough to eat?




I meant 2  2qt. bottles not 32 qt bottles


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## M.L. McKnight (Apr 6, 2014)

If she wasn't getting enough feed then there wouldn't be anything left in her bowl and she'd bawl. If she sucks on your hand it won't hurt anything, just be careful that she doesn't do it for too long or you'll end up with sore fingers. When she starts butting I suggest that you keep your fingers clear of her mouth, I had three bottle calves that I fed in the same pen and those rascals stayed attacked to my fingers! It got to the point where my knuckles and hands looked like I'd been spending the day in the boxing ring instead of around the farm.

Give her a salt block if you'd like her to drink more. Or you could give her a bottle or two of water, most babies learn by watching and she may not have the concept of drinking water from a bucket down quite yet.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 7, 2014)

Does anyone think she would learn from watching our sheep? I could put the sheep trough next to her water bucket. Although I gave a slat/mineral lick last night, and today when I went out the water level in the bucket was lower. I also gave her a 2 qt bottle of water last night and tonight after the regular bottle. She was full of piss and vinegar this evening running around bucking and kicking her little legs! LOL it was very funny.


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## M.L. McKnight (Apr 7, 2014)

It sounds like what you are doing is working. Any calf that is bucking and kicking is feeling alright.


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## jhm47 (Apr 8, 2014)

Let's say she weighs 150 lbs.  If she's drinking two - two quart bottles of milk daily, that's four pints of liquid, along with whatever water she's drinking.  If she needs more liquid, she'll drink more water.  Calves seem to know when they need water, salt, mineral, whatever.  Just let her self regulate, and she'll be fine.  I have raised thousands of calves and never had to train one how to drink water.  They figure it out quickly when they need to.  FYI---she'll  begin to drink more as her intake of starter/hay increases.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 11, 2014)

so she's still on 1.75 c starter twice a day, what should I bump her to without making her sick?


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## jhm47 (Apr 15, 2014)

She should be able to eat a quart at this age.  They usually don't overeat at this age, especially when they are getting milk.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 21, 2014)

Here she is three weeks post arrival. She is about 5 weeks old now. Maybe closer to Six weeks.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 28, 2014)

Hey y'all. She is Almost 7 1/2 weeks old. I feed her 2   2 qt. bottles a day still and she gets about a quart of grain twice a day plus alfalfa always available. She takes about three days to drink down a 2 1/2 gallon  bucket of water. is she getting enough food? She is always super ready for her bottles, she barely lets me get in the gate and she is butting her head into my side trying to get between me and the gate to get the bottle. Very impatient, then she suck it down in like a minute... literally! I don't want to give her more bottles but she doesn't really eat a lot of hay. she eats her grain most times but sometimes there is some left at the next feeding. Should I feed her in a feeder for her hay? she also has small little cheat grasses growing in her pen since the snow melt and I think she nibbles that. Any advice? I have a sheet I keep to track my expenses and her rations/weight and the like. I can attach I think


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 28, 2014)

I haven' measured her yet again, but by the weight of her standing on my feet lately, she's getting heavier!  the days that have no listing for starter means she had some left and I didn't give her more, and yes she goes that long between needing more hay. I finally changed out her hay on 04/24 because it had been in there and got snowed and rained on, so I just took it out and gave her fresh.


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## jhm47 (Apr 29, 2014)

At 7.5 weeks, it sounds like she's doing well.  I would increase her grain ration to a gallon a day.  Don't increase the milk---she'll be weaned in another 8 weeks or so.  Let her eat all the alfalfa hay she wants, and you did the right thing by removing the wet hay that was showed on.  She will gradually increase her water consumption as she gets larger and eats more grain/hay. 

Calves always seem to be extra hungry when the bottle goes dry.  This is more due to their sucking reflex not being satisfied than to their not getting enough milk.  It's calving season here now, and I often stand and watch my calves suck on their respective mothers (and a few try to steal from other cows too).  It often takes a calf a half hour to quit sucking.  Their mom has been drained for at least half that time, but they still like to suck, nibble and bunt the cow till they get bored and move away.  Sometimes the cow will get impatient and kick the calf, but usually it's the calf that gets done and goes on with his/her life.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 29, 2014)

I know what you mean by the sucking reflex, she absolutely HAS to suck on our fingers until she gets bored, otherwise she gets upset. Ok fine and I feel bad too  ... at any rate we do not allow her to bump our hands while sucking on them, I take my hand away when I know she's about to do it and tell her "no bumping!" Not sure if she understands, but maybe. She also absolutely loves being scrubbed/scratched on her neck both sides at once and her chest, I think it's like the tickle spot on a dog's ribs, she would probably lift her foot to scratch if she could . I will take your advice and increase to 1 gallon a day on the starter, I just bought another sack of milk-replacer. The first one lasted me this long, and I still have about 3 bottles worth in it. I was hoping to only need the second sack but if need be I will get a third, I want to make sure she is fed right. 

Not looking forward to butchering her, which is her intended purpose. Us girls are already attached. Oh well, it is what it is.

Any suggestions about halter training??? I haven't put one one her since the day we got her. She knows her name though and comes to us when we call her over so I guess that is good.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 29, 2014)

Just was reading another post and i completely forgot!   What about vaccinations and worming???? I have not done those yet and she was not given any at the ranch before i got her! What do i use??? I know the worming i should consult the vet, our local IFA Manager is very knowledgeable too and she has been a great help so far, maybe i will ask her, but what vaccinations should i give if any at all???


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## jhm47 (Apr 29, 2014)

I would give a 7 way shot.  This protects against overeating disease.  If she will be on pasture, I'd also give an anthrax shot.  Neither are very expensive.  If she's exposed to other cattle nearby, she may need a bovishield gold shot to protect against respiratory problems.  As to worming---if she's not been on pasture, I'd not worry about it.  I have no idea where you live, so these recommendations are for my area.  You probably should visit with a vet or knowledgeable rancher in your area to find out what worms/diseases are endemic to your location.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Apr 30, 2014)

jhm47 said:


> I would give a 7 way shot.  This protects against overeating disease.  If she will be on pasture, I'd also give an anthrax shot.  Neither are very expensive.  If she's exposed to other cattle nearby, she may need a bovishield gold shot to protect against respiratory problems.  As to worming---if she's not been on pasture, I'd not worry about it.  I have no idea where you live, so these recommendations are for my area.  You probably should visit with a vet or knowledgeable rancher in your area to find out what worms/diseases are endemic to your location.


Northeastern Nevada about 200 miles from the borders of Utah and Idaho. I will ask the Manager at IFA since she probably sees alot of ranchers in there getting vaccines or at least ordering for them.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 7, 2014)

Question to all... I am feeding about a gallon of calf starter (grain) a day and she doesn't eat it all, she picks at her hay too, is there something wrong with her??? she seems fine in all other aspects, there is a fair amount of cheat grass naturally growing in her paddock that she nibbles on. Monday evening right after feeding her bottle and giving grain, by the time i got in the house and looked out the window she was lying down. maybe i am just being over cautious, i fear that something i do or don't do for her will make her sick. all in all she seems happy, appears normal, is ready for her bottle each time. I don't know...


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## WildRoseBeef (May 7, 2014)

Are there any abnormal symptoms that she's exhibiting, like snotty nose, coughing, sneezing, kicking at belly, etc.? If she looks bright-eyed, alert and otherwise happy, then I don't think there's anything to worry about.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 8, 2014)

WildRoseBeef said:


> Are there any abnormal symptoms that she's exhibiting, like snotty nose, coughing, sneezing, kicking at belly, etc.? If she looks bright-eyed, alert and otherwise happy, then I don't think there's anything to worry about.


No, none of that, other than an occasional cough but I think it's usually right after eating grain and she might eat too fast and coughs. She is bright eyed and bushy tailed for the majority.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 9, 2014)

My older daughter thinks the calf has diarrhea, really green but not totally watery (still has some texture). I had not been able to check her yet, but we cut back on her grain, she didn't get any last night or this morning because she still had some from yesterday morning. I am thinking I will cut back on the grain to feed once a day (or every other day) to about half a gallon, and focus her more on eating hay since she doesn't seem to eat much hay anyways, it takes her several days to eat half a flake. Also have two pouches of calf electrolytes, do I put one whole pouch in a bottle of water???? Other suggestions anyone????


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## WildRoseBeef (May 10, 2014)

She's probably just picky then. They get like that if they're fed too much of the good, rich stuff, they'll pick through the feed eating what they like and leaving the rest. I think cutting back the grain is good. Does she have access to grass at all? That may also be why she's not eating her hay and grain as much as you'd like. It will also explain the diarrhea-like greenish poop, completely normal when and if she's on fresh pasture.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 11, 2014)

yes in her paddock is fresh wild grass/cheat grass, and with all the wet weather we are having it is staying lush and growing. I went back to giving her 3.5 cups starter which is equivalent to almost .25 gallons 2 times a day or .50 gallon a day. And she seems to be eating more hay this way, so I think I will just leave her here for a bit. I gave her 2 quarts of electrolytes yesterday also. She seems to be back to normal now. Haven't seen any new watery poop in her pen. Just wish this rain/snow crap would stop !


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 18, 2014)

is it best to wean at around 4 months of age or can you wean earlier with no ill effects??? and how do you do it when it IS time??? reduce bottles to one 2 qt once a day or split a 2qt bottle feeding into 1 qt twice a day??? Best advice anyone????


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## WildRoseBeef (May 18, 2014)

You can wean at 3 months, but no less than that. The best way to wean is to add more water to the replacer solution, NEVER reduce the amount given. But, you can reduce it IF you water it down more and more progressively over a few weeks. So, instead of giving the calf the solution you always mix as mentioned on the package, you just reduce the powder and increase the water in the formula. Do it gradually until you're feeding just about nothing but water to the calf in the last couple feedings--or the last day of bottle/bucket feeding.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 28, 2014)

new question... i have been admittedly negligent in the halter training area. I have been trying to just make her comfortable with our presence in her pen by petting her a lot when feeding her bottle and while she eats her grain. We brush her and spray fly spray on her and brush her face and she seems okay with that, but now i am not sure how to go about the halter training because when she sees the halter she backs up and runs away. the only other thing i am worried about is we cannot clean her shelter or pen very well because she head butts the "barrow" and will freak out and run around bucking, which makes the situation very dangerous. You definatley don't try it alone! At least with two people one can try to distract her while the other cleans. And the last thing is, I went out the other day to fix her feeder (it is a galvanized feeder that hangs on the fence by use of heavy gauge wire tying it to the rails) because the wire broke, i took some baling twine out there to fix it/tie it up better, and when i went into her pen she flipped out on me and started butting me and when i tried to push her away and tell her no she just came back harder. I kept my ground and kept trying to push her away and she started swishing her tail and bowing don at me keeping me by the gate, i decided something about me or the situation was bothering her so i decided to just go back out, but she alomost wouldn't let me get the gate open. I was actually a little shook up by this little heifer, i felt like an idiot. I have been going over it in my head what could have been worng, was it not having a bottle for her? was it the twine in my hand? or maybe it was because i just had my hair colored that day and she smelled the perfume of the dye? or maybe the pure and simple fact that my hair was blonde RED and brown, maybe the colors were freakin her out??? i notice she doesn;t like my daughters hot pink shorts or y husbands neon green t shirt, she acts a little edgy about those things. but then I have worn a bright pink (neon) pink shirt out there to feed her and she doesn't seem to care? Do they see in color? does anyone have advice on what i can do to nip this in the butt NOW before she is 500 pounds of nasty???? OH! and she has kicked me twice, not hard, but has nicked me both times!!!


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## jhm47 (May 28, 2014)

The calf is basically playing rough with you.  Butting the wheelbarrow and kicking up her heels is just her way of playing.  If there were another calf with her she'd be head-butting it and they would be playing rough with each other.  It most likely has nothing to do with your hair or perfume.  The fact that she is more reserved with extremely bright things like your daughter's hot pink shorts or hubby's green t-shirt is most likely because they are extremely bright and may possibly intimidate her a bit.

Now---a word of advice:  Making a pet out of an animal like this is best left to those of us who are experienced with cattle.  Your heifer is getting bigger, and she's beginning to test you to establish dominance.  Cattle have a definite "pecking order" within a herd, and because she has no other cattle around, she's focused on you as her herdmate.  She will continue to test you till one or the other of you establishes dominance.  You must find a way to show her who's boss while she's still small, or you will have a much harder time when she gets bigger, and bigger she will get!  I certainly hope she's either polled or dehorned, or you will soon have a bigger problem by a factor of 10X. 

As to halter breaking---Get her backed into a corner and put the halter on.  Tie her up, and let her stand for several hours till she's thirsty and hungry.  Then lead her to water and feed.  Tie her up again, and repeat till she's willing and ready to follow you wherever YOU want to go.  Might take the better part of a week.  Oh, and --- Good Luck!


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## happy acres (May 29, 2014)

X2! Make her see you as "boss cow " now or you will have trouble ahead!


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 29, 2014)

any words of advice on best techniques to use against a pushy calf, she always pushes in on us and gets all up in our business when we come in to feed her bottle. we always push her chest (like you do with a horse) and say "BACK Dixie" (that's her name... Dixie) and it doesn;t seem to matter, she just pushes right back in on us. Gets between you and the gate when you're trying to latch it after coming in her pen, and then she kinda dances around you til you give her the bottle. I have not intentionally tried to let her get this way, i have always pushed her back since the day we got her, so i am not sure what else to do.


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## WildRoseBeef (May 29, 2014)

She definitely sounds like she just wants to play with you, but in a way that is quite rough and something that you are obviously not accustomed to. It sounds like you weren't firm enough with her to get her to stop goofing around like you did. You made the situation worse by pushing her away. She _wanted _you to push back, and that's exactly what you did, and is exactly what made her more excited and "aggressive" towards you. You also mentioned you backed off or tried to back out. This is another wrong thing to do. Even to a young calf, this is a sign of submissiveness to that calf and shows to that young heifer that you are the weak one and she is the leader. Your obvious fear of her is also something she knows all too well about and will take advantage of. All of these things are what is creating the problem you already have.

You need to establish dominance with that heifer and let her you know YOU are the boss and you do not tolerate her bad habits. Don't go messing with her head any more because that just encourages her to head-butt you. Do not show fear nor try to back down when she gets rough with you. NEVER back away when she approaches you!! If you are going to push her, push her at her shoulder and keep pushing--do NOT push her away then back off--until you either have her on the ground on her side, or if you get to chasing her away from you. This is the very thing that cattle do amongst each other to establish dominance, and may seem rough and harmful if you are going to be acting that way, but really you are telling the heifer in "Cow" that you are the boss and are not to be messed with. 

I don't know the heifer at all and what her flight zone is around you or anybody else (I don't even remember how old she is--three months, is it?), but I know that simply "telling" her no isn't going to be enough especially now that she knows what you are like around her. I suggest that you have a much stronger emphasis on the "No" and be really firm to borderline aggressive when she tries to push you around again. Don't be afraid to growl or snarl something at her--even if you have to use a bit of coarse language--nor to act aggressive towards her where you instil a bit of shock and fear into her enough to teach her to back off and leave you alone. I know it sounds rough and mean and that, but you really need to do something about this heifer's behaviour before it's too late. Hitting her over the snout with a stick or piece of PVC pipe should be used only as a last-ditch effort to establish dominance.  

I know you don't want her to be afraid of you, but sometimes fear is a good way to gain respect, especially in the cow world. There may be other ways to train and tame cattle like what is done in natural horsemanship to train and "break" horses, but there's not much out there--nothing to that is as much worth as all the information out there to naturally train horses--to show what the best way to tame a older calf or adult bovine without using fear-based training and a little violence.  BUT, always remember to never show fear, don't allow yourself to get shaken up, and never back off when you try to push back. When you start pushing, keep pushing (no matter what kind of pushing it is, whether it's man-handling the heifer or pushing her by keep getting into her flight zone) until she is the one that submits, and herd her around the pen until you see her head drop and/or she doesn't try to follow you or chase you back. 

Ideally, too, if she's housed alone, you might want to find a friend for her so that she's not lonely all the time with only you as her playmates.


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## WildRoseBeef (May 29, 2014)

I didn't see your latest reply when I posted my response. But upon reading your latest post, she definitely knows that she's the dominant one and knows she can get in your space even when uninvited. No doubt you thought it was "cute" before when you first got her that she did that, but now it's not so cute since she's a bit bigger. So, not only do you need to be more assertive, but persistent and consistent in teaching her some manners. And you really have to mean it when you holler at her or chase her away. I know you probably already think you mean it when you tell her "No!" and push her away, but if it's kinda half-hearted and you feel sorry or guilty after for being so mean to her, then that in itself loses the effectiveness of the training. It's completely counter-productive, and certainly not helping your situation. 

Also, cattle are not horses. Cattle use their heads to push each other around, unlike horses, so simply pushing on her chest and telling her no is, as I mentioned before, just encouraging her to play more with you. You will have to do or say something to scare her and shock her into realizing that you don't want to play with her--and that might meaning having to raise your voice and holler something harsh at her.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 29, 2014)

I understand. So don't push her chest, push at her head or face and keep pusing until she submits. I can see how to her it would kinda seem like bumper cars by just pushing back and releasing when she backs away. The day she came at me like she did I spent what seemed like a long time but only probably three minutes trying to get her away by trying to make myslef look bigger, I threw my arms out shoulder height and hollered at her like "hey!" or "get!" while stepping forward towards her, but that only seemed to make her upset because she bowed her head and swished her tail frantically. maybe i misread her signals. but as soon as i would turn away she came up at me again, so turned again threw my arms up and yelled at her "Dixie GET!" and walked towards her, she backed up but still bowed her head and swished her tail, i tried one more time to do what i meant to do and she head butted my butt, i pushed back with my butt as she kinda pushed me into the feeder almost that was when i decided to leave the pen. i was nervous. 

So now when i go in, i will try your advice, however i am not sure how to bring the bottle into the pen, lock the gate and keep her off all at the same time.


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## SCLeppyLvr (May 29, 2014)

"You need to establish dominance with that heifer and let her you know YOU are the boss and you do not tolerate her bad habits. Don't go messing with her head any more because that just encourages her to head-butt you. Do not show fear nor try to back down when she gets rough with you. NEVER back away when she approaches you!! If you are going to push her, push her at her shoulder and keep pushing--do NOT push her away then back off--until you either have her on the ground on her side, or if you get to chasing her away from you. This is the very thing that cattle do amongst each other to establish dominance, and may seem rough and harmful if you are going to be acting that way, but really you are telling the heifer in "Cow" that you are the boss and are not to be messed with."

Never mind about the head thing, i didn't listen already!  ha ha, I will do what you said here.


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## WildRoseBeef (May 30, 2014)

Yeah, it's good that she backs up on you like that. You just need to ignore the signals of her challenging you (bowing her head and swishing her tail), and keep pushing at her shoulder (or even "psychologically" by moving towards her shoulder or hind quarters) until she turns away from you and walks away. Don't stop once she turns away, keep pushing until you are herding her around the pen. If you have to do this more than once, then do it! It's all psychological, you have to pose to her as the leader more psychologically than physically, because if you establish that, then you can remain her leader even when she's bigger, stronger and faster than you. She will challenge you on occasion, on those times you don't really expect it, but always be prepared to psychologically establish or maintain your level in the bovine pecking order when necessary.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Jun 4, 2014)

Any thoughts on taking the panel out from between the pens and letting our ewe and the heifer calf be together???


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## WildRoseBeef (Jun 4, 2014)

I see nothing wrong with that, but maybe first introduce them through a fenced barrier if that hasn't been done already. Then, introduce them a little at a time with you present for the first few days to see how they react to each other. If they get along well, then it should be no problem having them together for most of the day.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Jun 6, 2014)

They have been housed right next to each other but have welded wire fence on the corral panels to keep predators out as much as possible, so they know who each other are, just haven't been together to touch. Also the past few days the calf has a goopy eye, and a case of diarrhea, not sure what's up, he schedule got a little screwed up the past couple days with feeding, but could that give her upset stomach? she seems otherwise okay. I gave her a 2 qt bottle of electrolyte, should i give her anything else or just give her more electrolytes for a few days??????


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## SCLeppyLvr (Jul 3, 2014)

I have a question regarding something I have been pondering for a few weeks... I have a 18 month old ewe who is about 125 lbs, MAYBE 130. Our heifer is now almost 4 months old and possibly 300+ lbs??? I could take a pic of her and upload maybe someone could vsually tell me how big she is. I may take by beef tape out tonight when I feed to measure her. Anyway I am wondering if  I should let them be together? They are in pens next to eaach other and they can touch, but would it be safe for the ewe to be with the calf? I am only afraid the calf will be really rowdy and hurt the ewe since she doesn't have any other playmates. And I don't want the ewe injured. OR vice versa, the ewe to injure the calf! She can be pretty grouchy if she wants.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 6, 2014)

Let them be together, it'll be better for both of them. Cattle are tough (so are sheep, really), and I highly doubt one would be tough on the other and injure either like you are imagining will happen. I think you just have to let them sort things out themselves and they'll figure out their pecking order and, before you know it, become best buds as best as a young ewe and a heifer calf can be. 

Besides, there's only one way to find out how well they'll be together.


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## SCLeppyLvr (Jul 21, 2014)

She has scours right now, didn't think she could get this at five months old? at any rate got her loaded with a 30cc of EZ+ Calf Aid Scours Aid as of about an hour ago. Been giving electrolytes 2 qts 2x a day the past two days. is there anything else i need to do? should i get any more of the EZ+ stuff or will one be sufficient?


Also what could cause this? By herself still, same hay ration, smaller grain ration (weaning her off it until winter then doing plain pesticide free barley) , last bottle of replacer (1/8 the powder) tonight, and clean water??? I'm confused.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 23, 2014)

At that age, what would cause scours would be different--usually--from what would cause a young calf to scour. Get the feces tested to see what she may have and what can be done to treat her. She could have coccidiosis, which is common for calves at this age to get, but you'll need either a blood and/or fecal to determine. Usually a vet would recommend a dewormer to treat because this is a parasitic infection, not a bacterial nor viral infection.


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## Blue Sky (Jul 7, 2015)

How much starter should two-three week old calves have?  Angus x Holstein.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 7, 2015)

Not too much that they're going to want that instead of the bottle, and not too little that they'll not want to eat much of it. I'd say about 1% of their body weight per day, but the exact number you'll have to play around with. Don't be alarmed if they don't eat it right away, because it takes time for them to know that the starter is something they can and should want to eat.


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## Blue Sky (Jul 8, 2015)

WildRoseBeef said:


> Not too much that they're going to want that instead of the bottle, and not too little that they'll not want to eat much of it. I'd say about 1% of their body weight per day, but the exact number you'll have to play around with. Don't be alarmed if they don't eat it right away, because it takes time for them to know that the starter is something they can and should want to eat.





WildRoseBeef said:


> Not too much that they're going to want that instead of the bottle, and not too little that they'll not want to eat much of it. I'd say about 1% of their body weight per day, but the exact number you'll have to play around with. Don't be alarmed if they don't eat it right away, because it takes time for them to know that the starter is something they can and should want to eat.





WildRoseBeef said:


> Not too much that they're going to want that instead of the bottle, and not too little that they'll not want to eat much of it. I'd say about 1% of their body weight per day, but the exact number you'll have to play around with. Don't be alarmed if they don't eat it right away, because it takes time for them to know that the starter is something they can and should want to eat.


Thanks. They are beginning to put on weight and are very frisky.


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## WildRoseBeef (Jul 8, 2015)

Great to hear! Hope they continue that way for a long while yet.


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## WyndSyrin (Jun 10, 2018)

It took my first bottle baby about 2 weeks before he got the memo about the calf starter


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 13, 2018)

Vaccinate for clostridium diseases- blackleg, etc...
Biggest worry is did anyone make sure she got adequate good quality colostrum????   

Provide her with water, too.  Fix it so she won't knock it over and make a mess.  I used gallon bucket.  A well hydrated calf is a healthy calf!!!  Provide her with a high quality calf starter grower, too.  I weaned my bottle calves at 45 to 60 days old (when they were eating 2 pounds of starter a day) down to just one bottle a day for another two to four weeks.   
Every day I would put out a cup (literally) of starter and remove what was not consumed daily to replace with fresh.  Goats and other cows got the leftover.  Have feeder up off the ground so she won't step in it and make a mess.  As calf began to eat more and more, I would put out a bit more until they were up to two pounds per day.  Since the starter had coccidia treatment in it, I did not have to treat calves IF they were eating enough.  

The volatile fatty acids which are a by product of feed fermentation encourage rapid rumen development.  This is rather new finding as old info was that hay and roughage was what did it.  I do put good quality grass hay available to calf at about a month old.  Just to get them used to seeing it.  They go out in a small grass lot when weather is not wet or too cold.  Since they cannot go to momma and warm up with milk if they get wet/cold, I try to keep them dry until a couple  months old.  By that time they have figured out to go into barn with my goats when they go in if it rains.  

The pot bellied calves that were mentioned were most likely not given a good quality calf starter grower in enough quantity to support growth after milk weaning.  Formulated for starting and growing calves is very important.  

And, yes, you can feed milk until about seven months old if it is more or less free.  I did when I had a 'nurse cow' or extra milk that otherwise would be dumped.  After he was a few weeks old trained calf to drink from a tub and dumped extra milk to him.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Jun 13, 2018)

WyndSyrin said:


> It took my first bottle baby about 2 weeks before he got the memo about the calf starter


Yep!!!  It is amazing to watch a cow/calf pair and how quick that calf mimics momma and starts eating grain!!!  I sold all my cows a couple years ago, but still get my fix by filling in on dairy farm.  Sunday morning is my set day to work, although I milk at other times if they are in hay or at a dairy meeting.   We are milking 23 'good' cow and 6 more that either are being tx for mastitis or have just freshened.  There are four bottle babies and another four will become bottle baby once momma goes into milk tank.  All 100% Jersey and awesome!!!  Our milk goes to Dairy Farmers of American and Borden is one of the namebrands.


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