# Best way to keep calves safe?



## TXFarmGirl (Dec 2, 2019)

My kids (13 & 14) are looking to buy and raise a couple cows for meet, and to show in 4-H. We don’t have the land for it, but our neighbor does, and welcomed them to it. Its a pipe fence, with hay rings, a shelter, different pastures, a bid barn, etc. But the kids only problem is that they are nervous about predators. The neighbor has old dogs that lay around, and dear that run through frequently, but they are still worried about the calves being hurt if they get them. They’re wandering if they get them a little older then on a bottle like 6 or 8+ weeks old if they are big enough then, or if anybody has affordable recommendations about calf protection. 

The predators they are worried about are bobcats(because there are bobcats eating their chickens), coyotes, and maybe wolfs, but we haven’t seen any wolfs yet. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Baymule (Dec 2, 2019)

Most people around here keep bottle calves in huts with cow panel fence. A neighbor raises a couple of bottle calves and has had no losses.

@farmerjan 

@Wehner Homestead 

Dairies also raise their calves in huts with a small pen. We see them from the highway and they are just out in a pasture with no security or protection. That said, it is good that you are concerned about their safety. perhaps you could keep them in your yard while they are small?


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 2, 2019)

Bottle calves will cost you too much to raise up and the loss factor is higher.  Plus yes, they are more susceptible to predators but most predators will not bother an animal that has a little size to it.  
First off, you are saying for 4-H and for meat.  What breed are you thinking?  Don't know what is required for a show calf for 4-H in your area.  That should be number one to consider.  Get something that will be showable and sellable.  

Find out if there are any beef farmers in the area that would have an orphan calf or 2 to sell.  Sometimes a twin that a cow won't take or a cow died and leaves a calf. Sometimes a farmer will give a twin or orphan to a kid to raise.   Yes, they would be bottle calves.  They will cost you a minimum of about $250 to get it to just weaning size.  (8 weeks).  Milk replacer is expensive.  If you go that route ONLY use ALL MILK , milk replacer.  Do not use anything with a soy base.  The calves do not absorb it well and do not grow well on it and sometimes just will die because they cannot utilize it.  A godd high quality calf starter grain and the very best GRASS hay you can find for them when young.  Do not go to alfalfa when they are very young.... too rich and often too coarse.

You could keep them in a calf hutch, with a "cattle panel" for a little "yard" in front for them while they are on the bottle.

I would try to find some young weaned calves, 250-350 lbs.  Steers to show then eat.  It is hard to eat a heifer you have raised up and made a pet of because you will be wanting to keep her to breed.  Hard enough to raise a steer that you have made into a bit of a pet, and realize that he has no other purpose than meat for the table. 

The only thing that would be much of a predator deterrent would possibly be a donkey or even a llama.  Guardian dogs work okay but require real good fences and since you are using a neighbors, not a good fit.  

I don't see coyotes being much of a problem for a couple of calves that are 2-300 lbs.  Bobcats not an issue with calves even as babies.  Wolves may be a bigger deal, but if there aren't any in the area, I would not get too worried about them. 
Are coyotes and other predators a big thing?  Are the bobcats getting chickens during the day or are you not locking the chickens up in a predator proof house at night?   Our biggest problems here are raccoons, possums, foxes,  some times coyotes,  so the chickens get locked in at night.  Owls and some times hawks and we have some trouble with eagles.....
and the miserable BLACK Mexican VULTURES that will kill a  new calf in a heartbeat if they can get to it.   We've got them up here and I hate them with a passion. 
Ask away,  we will be glad to help if we can.


----------



## TXFarmGirl (Dec 3, 2019)

Baymule said:


> Most people around here keep bottle calves in huts with cow panel fence. A neighbor raises a couple of bottle calves and has had no losses.
> 
> @farmerjan
> 
> ...



Those are both really good ideas! Thank you so much!!!


----------



## TXFarmGirl (Dec 3, 2019)

farmerjan said:


> Bottle calves will cost you too much to raise up and the loss factor is higher.  Plus yes, they are more susceptible to predators but most predators will not bother an animal that has a little size to it.
> First off, you are saying for 4-H and for meat.  What breed are you thinking?  Don't know what is required for a show calf for 4-H in your area.  That should be number one to consider.  Get something that will be showable and sellable.
> 
> Find out if there are any beef farmers in the area that would have an orphan calf or 2 to sell.  Sometimes a twin that a cow won't take or a cow died and leaves a calf. Sometimes a farmer will give a twin or orphan to a kid to raise.   Yes, they would be bottle calves.  They will cost you a minimum of about $250 to get it to just weaning size.  (8 weeks).  Milk replacer is expensive.  If you go that route ONLY use ALL MILK , milk replacer.  Do not use anything with a soy base.  The calves do not absorb it well and do not grow well on it and sometimes just will die because they cannot utilize it.  A godd high quality calf starter grain and the very best GRASS hay you can find for them when young.  Do not go to alfalfa when they are very young.... too rich and often too coarse.
> ...



Thank you! They have really thought about all of that, and they understand the cycle of life. You gave all helpful information, so thank you for taking the time to type all of that. They now have a wonderful LGD with the chickens, so that’s not a worry for the chickens anymore (yes the dog is supervised, and the chickens do sleep in a secure barn at night). They’ve considered a donkey/llama, but they are worried about them hurting the babies, eating their food, costing extra, etc...They didn’t know how strong/durable the calves would be, so thank you for those pointers too.


----------



## cjc (Dec 3, 2019)

I raise bottle calves in the same area that I raise my sheep herd. My entire sheep herd got killed by coyotes. I have never lost a calf. We have coyotes, deer, cougars, bobcats, etc. Never lost one.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 3, 2019)

cjc said:


> I raise bottle calves in the same area that I raise my sheep herd. My entire sheep herd got killed by coyotes. I have never lost a calf. We have coyotes, deer, cougars, bobcats, etc. Never lost one.


I am so sorry about your sheep. My heart breaks for you.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 3, 2019)

TXFarmGirl said:


> Thank you! They have really thought about all of that, and they understand the cycle of life. You gave all helpful information, so thank you for taking the time to type all of that. They now have a wonderful LGD with the chickens, so that’s not a worry for the chickens anymore (yes the dog is supervised, and the chickens do sleep in a secure barn at night). They’ve considered a donkey/llama, but they are worried about them hurting the babies, eating their food, costing extra, etc...They didn’t know how strong/durable the calves would be, so thank you for those pointers too.


Donkeys and llamas are prey animals too. A cougar killed 5 goats a mile from us about a month ago. That lady had guard donkeys. There is NOTHING in donkey DNA that wants to charge at and fight a cougar. I know what those donkeys did, they ran for their lives, probably faster that the goats.


----------



## cjc (Dec 3, 2019)

Baymule said:


> I am so sorry about your sheep. My heart breaks for you.


Thank you! It was very sad! We had planned to keep them and breed them. Purchased them from a friend. Were hoping to use them for mutton busting practice for my son as well.   Im too scared to get more now. A few years back the same thing happened. We used wire and electrical line, locked them up each day by 6pm. Still they got them.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 3, 2019)

cjc said:


> Thank you! It was very sad! We had planned to keep them and breed them. Purchased them from a friend. Were hoping to use them for mutton busting practice for my son as well.   Im too scared to get more now. A few years back the same thing happened. We used wire and electrical line, locked them up each day by 6pm. Still they got them.


We have 3 Livestock guard dogs. Coyotes are terrible here. If we didn't have the dogs, we wouldn't have sheep. There are two cougars working the area. Our dogs, all the neighborhood dogs were going nuts late one night, a cougar was screaming VERY close to our place-between us and a neighbor. 

Have you considered livestock guard dogs?


----------



## cjc (Dec 3, 2019)

Baymule said:


> We have 3 Livestock guard dogs. Coyotes are terrible here. If we didn't have the dogs, we wouldn't have sheep. There are two cougars working the area. Our dogs, all the neighborhood dogs were going nuts late one night, a cougar was screaming VERY close to our place-between us and a neighbor.
> 
> Have you considered livestock guard dogs?


No. I haven’t. Well I guess I have always known it’s possible but I really don’t want another dog haha. I have 2 very old ones and they take up way too much time. With a 2 year old. But we just bought a new place and are building a house and I think when it’s done next spring I will add a donkey. I have heard they are good for that as well.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 4, 2019)

Donkeys come with their own set of problems. Some will attack and kill newborns because they aren't members of the herd. Some will attack breeding animals, some will allow wholesale massacre to take place as long as they themselves are not threatened. Some do make good pasture guards and are quite good at it. It's a coin toss.


----------



## cjc (Dec 4, 2019)

Baymule said:


> Donkeys come with their own set of problems. Some will attack and kill newborns because they aren't members of the herd. Some will attack breeding animals, some will allow wholesale massacre to take place as long as they themselves are not threatened. Some do make good pasture guards and are quite good at it. It's a coin toss.




I guess the part I like about a donkey is I would like one even if they were a dud haha. We had one on my parents farm for years. He passed away at 40 years old just last winter. We have always wanted to replace him but we have actually had a really hard time finding one. Id like a standard size...not a mini. But he was great. I don't know if I could of called him a livestock guardian but everything was scared of him haha and he was sweet as pie.


----------



## TXFarmGirl (Dec 4, 2019)

cjc said:


> I raise bottle calves in the same area that I raise my sheep herd. My entire sheep herd got killed by coyotes. I have never lost a calf. We have coyotes, deer, cougars, bobcats, etc. Never lost one.


That is horrible, I’m so so sorry! Thank you for the advice..


----------



## TXFarmGirl (Dec 4, 2019)

Thank you everybody for the ideas! My daughter really didn’t want another dog to raise either, but she just decided if she was going to have animals of any kind, she was going to need protection for them, so she got an LGD puppy, and Sheera the pup was the best decision she made for her business. That puppy is amazing. She loves her livestock, knows her job, does perimeter checks constantly, and doesn’t rely on us at all. It’s incredible. We will post an update if they get some calves. Thanks again everybody.


----------



## WyoLiving (Dec 4, 2019)

Why don't you have the kids ask at the 4-H meeting how the others in the group raise and protect their calves from predators.  I would be surprised if there wasn't someone there with good information and that info is actually for your location.


----------



## TXFarmGirl (Dec 4, 2019)

They were just looking for suggestions Thank you!


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 5, 2019)

Glad she got the puppy and is so happy with it.  Hope it continues to work out as good!!!!  I think that the kids will learn that the calves will be less at risk from the "wild predators" , than possibly from "domestic" predators.  Our worst problems are from the "packs of dogs" that have killed our sheep/ run the pregnant ewes to exhaustion, attacked them.  We do have some coyote problems here for the animals, have lost a couple of newborn calves within 24 hrs of birth one year...... but most are pretty wary of people if there are alot of human smells around the animals.  Being in and out with the calves will be a great deterrent.  When we have beef cows calving, it is totally different than being in and out of a pen, handling calves that are  "hand-raised".....  
I hope the kids get some calves of whatever size, and have a good time raising them.  Keep us updated.  Most all of us do like to see young people get "into"  livestock.


----------



## farmerjan (Dec 5, 2019)

Just another thought.  We have had both donkeys and llamas.  Have no qualms to get more of either.  The llama stayed with the baby calves on the beef cows,  like a baby sitter.  The donkey bonded better with the sheep, one hated the baby lambs but was great with the ones weaned and half grown.  The other preferred the ewes with the lambs.  They all have their own dispositions.  Have a pair of jennys running with the yearling sheep;  had a pair of llamas, females, that were awesome with the flock of sheep at another place.


----------



## Ridgetop (Dec 11, 2019)

You did not say what your kids are raising the calves for in 4h. 
If veal you wil meed bottle calves 1/2 dairy at least   They go to auction at 300 lbs max. 3 months old. Tricky because most dairy bulls don’t get colostrum. Most dairies don’t sell heifers. 
If as a replacement heifer you need a breed that will sell in your area, either beef or dairy purebred not necessarily pedigreed. 
If beef buy an older yearling. Trying to raise a beef for exhibition and auction at fair from a bottle is unrealistic. 
We raised a lot of bottle calves but we had an unlimited milk supply from our show herd of dairy goats. Even with colostrum and raw goat milk we lost our share of calves. They can be delicate and die fast. You have to know what to watch for.


----------

