# Opinion on doe



## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 10, 2015)

5 year old lamancha doe, 3 births, twins each time. No issues with birthing. Gives about a gallon a day. Purebred.

Want her for showmanship, as well as milk. However, she said she's prone to mastitis when milked improperly (ie inexperienced). So she puts this mint bag balm (basically what it is) on her. Should this be too concerning? We've had goats and milked them before. 























How does her conformation look? I may use her for showing as well. Any DQs you see?


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 10, 2015)

Prone to mastitis is a no go for me.  I don't know what they mean by inexperienced technique causing mastitis and that sounds like a thin disclaimer for her having  that tendency. Experienced or not, if she tends to get it, I'd pass.


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## babsbag (Apr 10, 2015)

Is she prone to mastitis OR udder congestion? The peppermint balm helps with congestion, doesn't do a thing for mastitis. Has she had mastitis? If so she could be a chronic carrier and have it all of the time. I would be very hesitant buying her.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 10, 2015)

She might not know the difference, I'll ask her what she does to help.

Aside from the mastitis, how does she look? Show quality?


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## babsbag (Apr 10, 2015)

I am not much help on the show question, but she looks like she has some teats I would personally like to milk; I'm not much on the little teats.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2015)

She has a nice udder
I don't really see anything really wrong with her
Only thing is her front legs are close together but sometes they stand that way
You really need to watch her walk
Watch her walk toward you and look at how square her front legs are beneah her
Is she Purebred or American?


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2015)

Another thing
You said Showmanship
You want a goat that is easy to show for showmanship
Showmanship is  more about how you show the goat than the goat itself although you don't want a nag
She looks like a nice animal so if she handles well she would be a decent animal for ahowmanahip


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 10, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I am not much help on the show question, but she looks like she has some teats I would personally like to milk; I'm not much on the little teats.


Exactly what I was thinking lol... Nice big teats. 



OneFineAcre said:


> She has a nice udder
> I don't really see anything really wrong with her
> Only thing is her front legs are close together but sometes they stand that way
> You really need to watch her walk
> ...


Purebred or american? What do you mean by american? Was told she's a purebred. The white one isn't. 

And yes, I know showmanship is about showing the animal. But I was also considering using her for regular showing as well.


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## babsbag (Apr 10, 2015)

a purebred has genetics that can be traced back to the beginning of time 

An American can have other breeds or Native On Appearanca as recently as 3 generations in the past. I have American Alpines and some of them are really only 87.5% Alpine; the other % is Togg, but since that meet the breed standard and they are over the required % (I think it is 87%) they are considered an American Alpine.  I would say most people don't even know that there is a difference and if the doe's ADGA registration is on blue paper and not brown they call them a purebred.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2015)

A goat can be registerd American but not necessarily be Purebred
An American would still be registered as a LaMamcha and would be at least 7/8 LaMamcha but would have been crossed with another breed at some point
Her color and markings look like a Toggenburg

One other thing
You want to look at her udder from a side view
Should be a third in front of her leg, a third covered by leg and a third behind her leg


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 10, 2015)

Ah yeah never heard of the american terminology. Well was told purebred, well see If she's regged

Toggenburg coloring doesn't necessarily mean she's part toggernberg tho. La'manchas are allowed in any coloring.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2015)

CochinBrahmaLover:) said:


> Ah yeah never heard of the american terminology. Well was told purebred, well see If she's regged
> 
> Toggenburg coloring doesn't necessarily mean she's part toggernberg tho. La'manchas are allowed in any coloring.


Doesn't matter if she is or not
American is not inferior to purebred just different
That's why Togg colors are not a DQ because so many have been crossed with Toggs its a very common pattern


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 10, 2015)

Ha sorry didn't mean to come off as defensive

I'll ask for more pics, thanks


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 11, 2015)

A nice side shot would help.  I don't see the fore-udder that a very nice show dairy would have.  I would ask to see her papers and take a snapshot of them so you can do some searching on the lines and it should tell you what type of breeding she has.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 11, 2015)

CochinBrahmaLover:confused:post: 389270 said:
			
		

> Ha sorry didn't mean to come off as defensive
> 
> I'll ask for more pics, thanks



I didn't take it that way
Hope you didn't take my comment negatively
I certainly didn't mean anything negative


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 11, 2015)

Lol, all is well 

Sadly she's about an hour drive away, so I can't go visit the goat. And she's terrible about responding to emails.. :|


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 13, 2015)

So got an email back..

"When I notice a little bit of mastitis on the filter, I will strip out about 1 cup of foremilk, the very first bit of milk and I let her drink it.  Her body will develop antibodies to the bit of infection and usually within 12 hours she has cleared up. It I think about it I will rub her with a natural udder rub, but I have the most luck with letting her drink her own milk.  I have only had to use mastitis treatment once.  I do dry treat her before drying her up at the end of her lactation has a preventative.  Works like a charm.  "

Hmm... I was excited about the doe and now not so much, lol. Thanks y'all. Sound like mastitis? Does to me. She's $400 /: might just try to drop price? Doubt well be able to find another in milk doe, much less a gal a day.


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## Sweetened (Apr 13, 2015)

Mastitis on occassion i dont think is uncommon. Overproduction under milking, not stripping, skipping milkings, some other secondary infection lowering immune system, not washing, sanitation issues and so on. its old practice to feed back mastitis milk to the animal.

That said, a couple years ago i leased a milk cow who was returned within the month. She was chronically mastitic with a common form of mastitis that had been so poorly treated it was immune to every antibiotic thrown at it.

Its my understanding some animals (and women) are just more prone to it than others? Rough choice, but i would NOT pay $400 for a doe so casually spoken of as having mastits semi regular.


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## babsbag (Apr 13, 2015)

Ditto with what @Sweetened said about not paying $400 for her. But really, I wouldn't pay anything unless you just want a chance to get kids from her down the road. If she does go into a full blown case of mastitis you won't get any milk, it is time consuming to treat, and she could even die.

But on the flip side if the only thing that makes her think the doe has mastitis is clumps on the filter when she strains the milk then the doe might not even have mastitis, that is not a very reliable indicator. But she could also be chronic.

Where are you located that you think that you can't find another goat? Also, has the doe been tested for CAE or CL?


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 13, 2015)

Oh I can find another goat. Just it won't be a goat _in milk_.

I can find plenty of doelings, or even does who are old enough to be bred but aren't. And I can find a buck pretty easy.

Uhh, well I'm fairly sure that she is, but it was over the phone, so I'll ask again via email. Thank you guys, you've been reminding me of everything I've forgotten, lol.

Yes Id be breeding her. This wouldn't be an issue for her kids, right?


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 14, 2015)

Agree with the others on this one.  You could be buying an expensive problem.  And she is okay looking but still think she could have a better udder since you are looking for a show animal.  Feeding the milk back to her---yeah that is definitely an outdated practice. 

It could definitely be a problem for kids.  If she has regular issues with infection, she may not feed or be able to feed kids.  We bought two kids off a doe who had mastitis---it became gangrenous and she died.  That is not the norm and I do not think they were be effective in the treatment, but just am using it as an example of where mastitis became a big issue.


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## Sweetened (Apr 14, 2015)

I just finished losing a doe to mastitic side effects from orf, so i know mastitis, and orf, can kill.

If she is chronically mastitic, i would assume she could, potentially, pass that trait on?


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 14, 2015)

Sweetened said:


> I just finished losing a doe to mastitic side effects from orf, so i know mastitis, and orf, can kill.
> 
> If she is chronically mastitic, i would assume she could, potentially, pass that trait on?



Good point.  Some does, like people, are more prone to mastitis.  When breeding goats, it is definitely something to consider.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 14, 2015)

Well we're not getting her. Explained my concerns and she understood.

We're heading down to anchorage on Friday to get 2 purebred La'manchas, one bred, one milking. The milking one is 2 weeks freshened and milking about half a gal a day, but the owner says last year she nearly milked a gal a day. She's had 2 sets of twins. The other doe is a first freshener, the kid of the doe. She hasn't tested for CL but has never had abscesses, she tests randomly for CAE, and has had some positive tests but after retesting they've all come back negative. And she's done this for 19 years, so I trust that they're most likely CL and CAE negative.

So, is it the best program? Maybe not. But these does have no mastitis issues, no other issues, are purebred, and are easy to milk, so I'm good with them. I'll be sure to include pics. The FF is horned, but that's fine, I don't mind horns. Only reason I don't like horns is A) can't show a horned dairy goat and B) kids are an absolute PITA with horns. An adult should be fine though.

Waiting on pics, will upload them when I get them, lol. They're $500 for both, which I'm much happier with, because I get 2 goats + 1-3 more (guessing on 2 though. Or hoping. Same thing)


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## babsbag (Apr 14, 2015)

I think you made a good choice. I would have them tested for CAE and CL just so YOU can say you have a clean herd if someone wants to buy kids from you. I am not sure about the positive and then negative tests; that is a little strange.

I have been told that testing for CAE and CL when bred can lead to false results as the doe has a compromised immune system when pregnant, but I am not entirely sure that is true and I don't know if you would get false positive or false negative results. I would talk to a good lab about testing when bred and then decided what to do. If you test the doe in milk that will give you a pretty good indicator of the status of her daughter since the most common mode of transmission is through milk.

Hope she milks well for you and that you get some nice kids out of this too.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 14, 2015)

Based on what I've read, it can be because they were introduced to the virus but didn't necessarily develop it.

Yep I definitely will. Thank you


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## Sweetened (Apr 14, 2015)

Lots of conflicting information out there. I dont think we really understand the disease.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 14, 2015)

So pics!






This is Flora. Not sure who her father is, not entirely sure when she's due, but she's bred to a lamancha. Does she look pure to you? She is Sofia's daughter. A bit skiddish, but her does have all calmed down after kidding (my own did too)





And Sofia! Very happy with these girls.


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## Sweetened (Apr 14, 2015)

These are the questions i have. Flora, does she have an underbite or is that just the way her mouth is being held? She looks to have a deep curve in her neck, what do others think?

I like sofia better, but im weirded out by one bald back leg. That back leg's hoof looks uneven, but the rest of her feet appear fine. Thoughts from more experienced people?


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 14, 2015)

@Sweetened Sofia looks like she's shedding, but maybe that's just me.
Flora was just eating.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 15, 2015)

I think the back leg looks shaved.  I'd ask why.  I see the curve too Sweetened.  It is hard to tell if they are PB.  I am one who likes pics, posed, different angles, and what not, if I can't put my hands on them first.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 15, 2015)

Her udder is slightly unbalanced - the left half is slightly smaller.  If she is prone to mastitis, that is probably the side that gets infected.  I would definitely stay away from a goat that is "prone to mastitis".  No matter how experienced you are as a milker, the goat will continue getting it and do you really want to keep dealing with it?  We had  dairy goats for 20 years with only a couple cases of mastitis and you have to use antibiotic infusions to put up in the udder through the teats.  If this doe is for a showmanship project at fairs, that means a youth competition, and your child will have to deal with any cases of mastitis at the fairgrounds.  The fairgrounds have limited sanitation and most states have rules that the child must do _all_ the work.  The only thing the adult can do is restrain the animal.  Ask yourself if this doe gets mastitis at a fair will your child be able to deal with it?   Udder sanitation is standard, udder wash before and after and teat dip after finishing milking.  the only thing an "experienced milker" would differently is recognize the signs of mastitis earlier.  If she were a top winning animal in your herd already. it might be worth working with her, but if you are thinking about buying her - DON'T!  Some kinds of mastitis can be transmitted, and you have to dump the milk because it has pus in it and while you are treating her it will have antibiotics.  There are a lot of nice animals out there - save yourself a headache, money - mastitis treatments are expensive, and the possible loss of this doe if her mastitis continues to come back.  Why buy trouble?


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 15, 2015)

@Ridgetop that is a lovely well written post. However we did decide not to get her. If you look at the page before I posted a pic of the new goats we're getting. Thank you though, it definitely makes me think we made the right decision.

Also, I'm the child  she'll be my show goat

Edit: accidentally posted before I finished typing lol


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## Ridgetop (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm so glad you decided to pass on her.  Mastitis is a problem.  I did not see the other threads this am.  If you can ship in animals or get to western Washington State somehow, Judy Hoy has beautiful LaManchas and sells does in milk.  She has cut back quite a bit with her barn, but she has a website - Lucky Star dairy goats - which should give you some info.  Their goats are all CAE & CL tested as well as her herd being on milk test yeasr round.  If you are trying to build a quality dairy herd, her laManchas are top quality, as well as being star milkers.  This is still kidding season and breeders will be selling their 1st fresheners that are not their top pick for the show ring.  You might be able to find one with good bloodlines and records.  A good breeder will usually have the milk records with the milk recorded in lbs. 8 lbs = 1 gallon which should be average production for a mature 2nd freshener.   Some goats freshen with a large yield and then taper off quickly.  If you want a supply of milk year round, then you want to check the records that they have kept for the entire milking season of10 months.  Hope this helps - by the way, if you plan on drinking the millk stay away from Toggenburgs.  Their milk makes good sharp cheese, but is horrible to drink.  The best tasting milk is Nubian, then LaMancha, in my opinion.  We raised our children on goat milk and bought a Tog first before we found out about their milk flavor.  Yuck!  I had to flavor it heavily with chocolate for the kids to drink it - no problem with Nubian or LaMancha milk. We had Alpines over the years too but Nubian is the sweetest.  Just our family's opinion - no offense to owners of other breeds.  Good luck on your search - looking forward to hearing what you  find.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 15, 2015)

Ridgetop said:


> If you can ship in animals or get to western Washington State somehow, Judy Hoy has beautiful LaManchas and sells does in milk.


I was going to say the same thing! I'm hoping to get a doe or 2 shipped out in the next few years 
Absolutely beautiful animals!


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 15, 2015)

@Ridgetop I've had togg milk before and it tasted fine. We're not shipping in animals, I found La'manchas near us, thanks though.


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## babsbag (Apr 15, 2015)

@Ridgetop  It depends on the individual Togg but I agree that the incidence of strong "goatie" milk with a togg is higher. But boy oh boy are they nice hardy, sturdy goats.  Love, love, love my alpine/togg crosses.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 16, 2015)

We loved our Toggs too, after all they were goats - who couldn't love them?!  but our Nubians and laManchas became our favorites because of the milk issue.  We would drink the pm milking in the am and the am milking in the pm after chilling in glass containers.  If we had company we never told anyone it was goat milk and no one (especially kids) could tell the difference.  If they found out it was goat milk they were like "Oh I knew it tasted different" after about 3 glasses!  Once the kids we were keeping were off milk, we raised calves on the milk and the hay the goats would leave in their feeders.  Such picky eaters!  The calf money helped with our hay bill which was larger than our mortgage!  We don't have pasture here in southern California.  Certain times of the year we have forage if we get rain.
*Goatwhisperer* - you will love the Hoys - they are super people and their animals are not only beautiful, but healthy high yielders with lovely udders.  My son Carl based his entire herd on their lines after luckily buying his first LaMancha out of one of their bucks.  We bought several does from them and a buck.  Then we bought a buck from a breeder friend of their in Napa, CA.  The Lucky Star buck (Magnet) put on gorgeous body type as well as udders, but the Napa buck (Noguchi) (Judy Hoy had a brother to him) put on udders to die for.  His body conformation was tops too, but he was an "udder buck" no doubt.  Carl was competing and winning in open classes with his herd by the time he started college.  He polanned to keep themand continue showing but it was too much with commuting to college so he decided to sell.  The entire herd of 100 animals went to a breeder in Northern California!  When all the doe kids freshened she called and said she couldn't part with any of them because they all had such gorgeous type and udders!  After buying does from Lucky Star we got ambitious and went on milk test.  My friend and I went to classes and she became our tester since we didn't have anyone in the area - mostly horses here.  It was a terrific learning experience for our family. 
*All you young families out there - this is the best time of your lives!*  My husband and I had the best fun of our lives raising our children and the livestock.  The entire family was heavily involved in everything we did and we never did anything by halves.  We heat treated our colostrum and pasteurized all milk for the kids. I ran 3 pasteurizers all morning pasteurizing the milk from a dozen milkers year round.  Carl learned to draw blood for CAE testing.  We tested our entire herd every year and were religious about disposing of any animal with a positive test.  We had 2 test positive over 20 years and immediately removed them from the herd.  One had been negative but after going out to be bred tested positive the following year.  Later we heard that the breeder was one who kept CAE animals "separated" from the rest.  After that we bought our own bucks.  Carl was very into the dairy project - he and I learned too do AI and also had his bucks collected.  We bought a tank.  I even took him to the National ADGA convention in Portland when he was in high school.  The 4 children raised dairy goats, Boer goats, 2 breeds of sheep, replacement dairy heifers, hogs, rabbits, turkeys, chickens, and, for a year, roller pigeons.  They also had their horses.  Although we live in a horse area of town, near malls, the kids never hung out at malls.  We worked all the time since you all know how much work livestock is!  Our big excitement was going to the video store to rent movies on Saturday night.  I would make popcorn and ice cream floats.  Our whole family would gather around the TV and get to watch a movie.  Maybe it was strange to their friends, but our kids never got into trouble, were on sports teams, were super active in 4-H, and kept their grades up.  I would take them out of school 2x a year to take their dairy animals to fairs, then we spent a lot of time during the summer going to fairs.  We had a camper but they slept in the stock trailer in sleeping bags on clean straw with their friends.  Girls in one family's trailer, boys in ours.  They had friends from all over the state.  We even took them to the State Fair when the ADGA National show was in our state and they competed in both shows.  Best times of my life raising my 4 children and the wild things they would do!  Loved it and miss it!  Saddest thing is the 5th child we raised after her mom died missed most of it.  Grandchildren are coming along though, so the whole thing may get to repeat - after all they carry the same genes! LOL  We bought some more Dorset sheep a few years ago when the last of the kids grew up and we had to keep doing brush clearance on our 60 degree slopes without our captive farm labor!  I guess once a rancher, always a rancher.  We don't look forward to one day having to move into an apartment if we get too old to live on acreage.  Hopefully we never will.
Good luck to all you herd and flock keepers!  Enjoy!  I love reading your posts.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 17, 2015)

Goat Whisperer said:


> I was going to say the same thing! I'm hoping to get a doe or 2 shipped out in the next few years
> Absolutely beautiful animals!


@Goat Whisperer 

You should check out Gabhar Torr Lamanchas.  This farm is in New Castle, VA.
Not only do they do DHIR testing, but the owner Karen Torrence is   Co-chair of the ADGA performance committee.
She spoke at our goat club a few months ago and shared a lot of information about testing.  We got to look at some of the reports and things like that.
And, she breeds some of her first freshners to Nigerain bucks so you can pick up an F-1 mini while your at it.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (Apr 17, 2015)

We have goats!!!!


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## babsbag (Apr 17, 2015)

@Ridgetop. Ok, you have to drop some names.   I live in No. CA so who bought your herd of LaManchas? And who is/was the herd in Napa that you bought your buck from? Inquiring minds need to know...

Did you ever show in Red Bluff at the fairgrounds?


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## Ridgetop (Apr 18, 2015)

No, not that far north.  Rex and Barbara Backus of Quixote LaManchas bred our beautiful buck Noguchi.  that was the year she named all her bucks after artists.  It has been about 12 years ago or so.  My boy, Carl, who owned the LaManchas is 29 now and sold when he was 19 and in college. During the first months he realized he couldn't do all his studies and the ranch work as well so sold his herd to someone who came to LA Fair.  She lived in Inyokern and had been the original owner of Shadow Hills dairy goat name.  (We live in Shadow Hills, CA, but no relation to her herd name.)  She had gotten out of showing but with a friend was getting back in and wanted to open a dairy I think.  I don't remember her name and a few years ago I removed all the goat files so can't look her up.  I figured if my husband and I wanted to get back into goats, we would just go to the Hoys.  Carl had some lovely animals and we mostly showed in southern California.  When he sold, half of our kids were Quixote and half were Lucky Star sired.  Broke our hearts to sell, but we had 100 be then and the work load was intense and the hay bill monstrous.
First, we had Toggs (my daughter's first goats), then Nubians for milk (adequate show animals but production milkers) and my daughters 4-H goats until she graduated.  My oldest son sold his Toggs (he hated milking) and got into sheep - club lamb production and registered show Hamps.  He sold everything when he graduated.  My youngest 2 boys had Dorset sheep and club lambs, then back into dairy goats.  Carl had LaManchas, Andy had Nubians.  They helped each other with the work and showing and weren't competing against each other in the breed ring.  They sold the sheep flock, then they added Boers which were ok and they did pretty well with them, but we never got as attached to them as to the dairy animals.  There is something about a dairy goat that you bring up on a bottle and milk twice a day that just lets you both know you love each other! 
Now my husband and I have sheep to do the fire clearance on our 5 acres.  We live on top of a ridge and the slope ranges from 50 to 65 degrees where we have to clear.  My husband wanted goats again, but sheep actually do a much better job of the "scorched earth" type brush clearance I like.  We are in a bad fire area with no hydrants near us.  I opted for Dorset sheep (Carl originally had a nice little flock of them and they are pretty docile which I like).  They are not 4-H sheep, not halter broke, just nice breeding animals that produce wool, and mainly meat.  We sell our lambs privately.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 18, 2015)

Is that what you wanted to know?  This is kind of new to me and I tend to write too much.


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## babsbag (Apr 18, 2015)

You did fine 

I was wondering if the herd in Napa was Quixote. I have a couple of goats with that line in them but they are both really petite and people that I have talked to that have had LMs for a long time say that the Quixote line was always large goats.  I guess the offspring that I got from them must have inherited a dainty gene somewhere.     One of the does just freshened yesterday and the kids are tiny so unless they grow out really well I guess the dainty gene is going to follow me. I would like to sell both of the does I have to someone that wants to raise minis, they would be good for that.  I really like BIG goats.

I can't even imagine 100 goats. I have about 50 right now but most of those are kids and need to leave. I am building a dairy and my goal is no more than 30 milkers. Of course I have a few does that I don't milk that will just retire here and I have a few does that just need to leave. That is my hardest problem...what to do with an unproductive doe; one that either has itty bitty teats, small orifices, or just a low producer. No place in a dairy string for them and really not a home milker either. But I feel so guilty sending a doe to auction


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## Ridgetop (Apr 18, 2015)

Our Quixote buck was a nice big buck.  He threw slightly smaller kids, but they grew out.  Magnet was the same size but threw huge kids.  We used Noguchi on first fresheners since the birth size was easier on them.  Magnet we used on the mature does.  If they just have some Quixote bloodlines but didn't come from Barbara, I would guess that they got the small gene somewhere else.   
When it comes to selling off some of your stock, you need to steel yourself but it _is_ hard!  My husband would complain about the amount of goats we had so I would finally cull out those that were not the best and take them to the auction.  When he came home and noticed they were missing, he would complain that I had sold them!  Remember there is only so much money for hay and grain.  You have a plan to build your dairy, so you have to stick to it!  Poor teats for milking - take her to the auction.  Unbalanced udder - take her to the auction.  Low producer - take her to the auction. 
Make sure that you are keeping good records and weighing your milk.  Some goats freshen big then trickle down, while others seem to freshen slowly into their lactation.  It is the overall lactation yield you want to measure when deciding to keep a milker.  This means a year round milking schedule and a minimum 10 months lactation.  Also, practice "challenge milking".  The general rule is to feed grain lb for lb to the milk, i.e. 4 lbs of milk = feed 4 lbs grain.  So when her lactation is at its height, slowly cut the grain until the mik yield drops.  Then bring the grain up just to where the milk yield is highest.  You will find that you can cut your grain costs while keeping peak production. 
Over the years we found that in our area we had an ethnic market for young buck kids.  At first we disbudded them and castrated them.  When we learned that ethnic buyers want uncastrated buck kids so we stopped banding them and made more $$ per kid.  Since we were selling at 2 months old we really didn't need to disbud, but did it anyway since we did all the doe kids.  Also, you ill find that ethnic holidays are the times when you will get more $$ for your buck kids so breed for a 2 months old kid before Easter and make sure you get them to the auction about 3 weeks before then.   A lot of people like to feed the kids themselves for a while beforehand.  At first we bred for everyone to freshen in January but eventually milked year round when we went on test.  You will want to stagger your breedings so you will have milk available for sale all year.  Since goats are seasonal breeders (especially the Alpine breeds) you will also want to watch for does and bucks that will breed out of season.  Nubians have a longer rut and breeding cycle.  You will want to keep bucks that stay fertile longer.  Another trick is to keep a young buck for use in the summer since they tend to stay more fertile in the heat. 
By the way, some of our special goats never left - it just happens no matter how hard you try to be all business!  We were more surprised than anyone to count the goats when they went into the trailer and find that we had 100!  At least half were doe kids - that year in particular it seemed we had triplet does out of all our best does.
Good luck on your dairy plans. We had planned at one time to have a goat dairy, but in California you have to be Grade A licensed to sell milk.  The cost of set up was prohibitive so we abandoned the plan.  We loved our goats though and sometimes I wish we still were milking all of them.  I must be crazy right?!


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## babsbag (Apr 18, 2015)

Wow, you are a wealth of information and thank you for the idea on the grain. I would like to go on milk test next year but I want a meter and not mess with weighing between each goat; that would be a challenge. Right now I have no idea how much each doe gives or for how long. I am letting them raise their kids too as I just don't have time this year to bottle raise since I am working on the construction. All my does are tested for CAE so I am ok with this but next year it will be all bottle time.   A lot changes next year.

I am building a Grade A dairy in a two trailers. One trailer was already licensed as a milk bottling plant and we are converting one of the rooms he used as an office to a place to make cheese. The other trailer will house the milking parlor and the milk house. We are building it all ourselves and hope to have it ready for the first inspection by July.  The inspector has been very helpful and receptive to this so I hope and pray it all works out.

I was originally planning on only making cheese  but when I found this trailer things changed a little and now I will do fluid milk and cheese and will add yogurt and kiefer later. I wasn't planning on having goats in milk year round and now that has changed too. I did however buy a Nigi buck so he can breed my girls anytime they are ready. If I am not keeping all the kids I thought I would test the market for mini Alpines and see what happens. I am buying or borrowing a LaMancha buck though as I would like more LM does and I like to keep my ears segregated.   I have a pretty nice Alpine buck too and he will stay here for at least another year, he is only a year old right now. I threw quite a few girls this year too so an added plus.

I have one Togg and her milk is pretty bad early in her lactation, but boy does she milk. Fortunately when I mix her milk with the rest you don't notice the taste. As far as getting rid of does it is just hard for me, really hard. Even if they are good milkers there comes a time when you need to retire them and I don't want to run a goat retirement home in addition to a dairy. Someone suggested that I sell does at the age of 5 as family milkers...might make sense to keep a young herd but I don't want a herd of yearlings either. It is a tight rope walk I think. I want to raise my own kids though, that is the fun part and gives me more control over disease.

I could go on, but I think I hijacked this thread


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## Ridgetop (Apr 19, 2015)

Babsbag:  Congratulations for doing your homework before getting too far into it.  Congrats on the doelings too.  Dairy people are only interested in females.  When kids were born the first thing we checked as soon as they were on the ground was sex.  Celebrations when it was a doe, sadness when it was "junk".  They were all cute, but the money is in the does.  You are right about retiring some of the milkers at an older age but a good doe will milk well until she is about 10.  Once you are on test it will be easier for you to keep track of the annual yield which is the most important.  The test results you get back will also show you the amount of butterfat in your milk which weighs less than milk solids.  Milk test is super important for any dairy herd and I am so excited you are going to do it. It is a lot of work, but it will be so beneficial for your dairy and cheesemaking business.   
You could scope out the 4-Hers in your area as a sale resource for your nice milkers that are not quite up to the yield you will need.  You didn't mention showing your goats which would be an additional resource for sales.  It is a fine line between commercial dairy and cheesemaking and having the time to show as well.  If you have children they can do the showing at youth fairs to start and then move into open.  They also can do a lot of the kid raising for you.
I love your conversion plans - you are much further along than I realized. Dairy business is very labor intensive.  Use bucket feeders for the kids next year.  You can make them yourself out of 5 gallon plastic buckets.  You will want all the milk for your business and kids will take up to a quart until they are weaned.  You can raise the doe kids on half replacer/half goat milk if your own milk makes you more than the cost of replacer.  Dump the buck kids at a month old or younger after they have had colostrum.
Don't forget to get a small pasteurizer to heat treat your colostrum so you can keep some in the freezer in case of disaster.  I used to heat treat my colostrum and feed it the first day then freeze the rest.  Since it takes 2-3 hours to heat treat it saves a lot of time and trouble if you have it already treated and frozen.  That way you can do the heat treating at your convenience.  I add blue food coloring to my pasteurized milk and heat treated colostrum so it is easy to see which is which.  Even though we tested every year for CAE we still heat treated colostrum and fed pasteurized milk.  It can save you if a goat becomes positive.  I had that happen to a doe after she went to a breeder who advertised that she tested for CAE!  She may have done, but she was obviously keeping positive animals! 
I am so excited for you.  I will keep watching your posts about the progress of your dairy.  If you start a new thread let me know so I can read about it.  I am still figuring out this website and can't always find prior threads I liked - I am not very good at this yet LOL - just an old farm lady!  Good luck!


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