# Please tell me everything about disbudding with paste!



## s.z.ichigo (Apr 5, 2013)

Two of my ND boys' nubs are getting pointy, and I haven't found anyone out here to disbud them! They are almost 2 weeks old now. I really wanted to go the hot iron route, but I can't afford the tool myself right now and I haven't found anyone who does it.
So my husband is bringing home the paste tonight. I've read everything I could find on the subject, but I am super scared to do it myself. These are my first babies and I really really don't want to screw this up and injure them. There are so many sites that warn against its use, and go into gory detail about what exactly will go wrong if you even think about trying it. 

Here's what I've gathered so far...

First, clip the hair around the horn buds. I don't know how I'll do this, as the clippers I have are fairly loud. Won't that scare them?

Then I rub vaseline around the area, so it won't drip into the face. I also think I read that you can make a template out of duct tape. Not sure which is better?

Then I put a dollop of the paste on the buds, and in a 1/8" circle around them. I was thinking this would be easier to do if I put the stuff in a syringe rather than using a stick to apply it. would that work?

Then I clap a duct tape bandage over the area. This is where I'm not sure what to do. I've seen that you can leave it on and I've seen that you have to wash the paste away with vinegar and then water.
I'm thinking that if I leave it on, their moms will want to pick the tape off. They are all VERY mouthy. I'm also worried about leaving such a harsh substance on their heads without doing anything to neutralize it., But I REALLY don't want to accidentally wash it into their eyes, as I can't imagine how hard it will be to hold a wiggly little boy still enough to wash the top of his head so carefully.

I haven't found much info on the recovery process. How long it takes, what it should look like, and what to watch out for. Also, what is the procedure if it does get in an eye or a mouth??

I hope to do this tomorrow. I'd really appreciate the advice of an experienced paste-user. Thanks so much!


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## Squirrelgirl88 (Apr 6, 2013)

Everything I've read suggests the paste is a really bad idea. Too many ways it can get into their eyes and on the skin in other places. You may want to rethink the paste and look into another method.


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## TGreenhut (Apr 6, 2013)

Squirrelgirl88 said:
			
		

> Everything I've read suggests the paste is a really bad idea. Too many ways it can get into their eyes and on the skin in other places. You may want to rethink the paste and look into another method.


x2


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 6, 2013)

I agree. If I could, I would. The only person I've found around here who disbuds with an iron is about an hour away and charges much more than I can afford. I've seen enough people say that they use the paste with no problems to know that it CAN be done, so I've just gotta go with it armed with as much info as I can.

I've done the first boy...I have to say it was awful. I tried the duct tape helmet, and in his thrashing the stuff just smeared EVERYWHERE. Didn't get in his eyes, fortunately, but it was a huge mess. I had to remove the whole assembly, wash him, and try again. The second go was better. I made a little cap out of pill bottle tops and held that on with the duct tape. He still thrashed around and cried, but this time the paste was contained and, I hope, did its job.

The second boy I just completed. This time instead of wrapping him in a towel, I cut the sleeve off an old sweatshirt and put him in like a sleeping bag. This worked much better. But I think I put too little paste on him. He went straight to sleep. When I took the thing off, I saw there was only a tiny spot on the tip of each bud. I think the rest got onto the bottle cap. So I redid him and didn't use the cap or duct tape at all. I just held him in his sleeve-bag. This time he DID thrash around and cry as much as his brother had. I held him the entire 20 minutes while he cried and panted and generally freaked out. Not fun.

After washing he calmed down, and is now exploring the kitchen and having a great time. The first one if back in the barn with mom. Neither one of them seem to remember anything after the stuff's been washed off, but it's a VERY hard 20 minutes.

I still don't know what exactly I should look for to know whether or not it worked, or how long it will be before I know for sure. I'm on the fence about what to do with the other three. Their horns aren't quite as developed, so I may have time to find someone with an iron. I definitely don't want to attempt that on my own without having someone to show me first.

Kudos to the folks who use the paste routinely. I feel like I'm kind of getting the hang of it...but it's HARD. I've got some burns on my own hands and arms, and my shirt is totaled. The worst part is that I have no idea if it's been effective. 
I don't know if I'm even doing it right...everything says it's only "some discomfort", but these guys were going ballistic. I know goats can be drama queens, but it just seemed awful.

EDIT: Okay this is strange. I did my oldest girl, she's about 16 days old but her horn buds are no bigger than the boys I did. I didn't use duct tape or anything, just wrapped her up and applied the paste (after a haircut). She's not even noticed. She's just sitting in my daughter's lap watching Garfield. Worried it's not doing anything at all now. 
EDIT: Alright, done with her. never uttered a peep. I washed the stuff off and there is NOTHING. No marks, no indication the stuff was ever there. I don't think it did anything at all. I don't understand what happened, but I may as well have applied play-dough.

Here is what the boys' heads look like. Is this what it should look like? Thanks!


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 6, 2013)

Not sure what it should look like.  Never seen it used on a goat before so maybe someone else can pipe in.  If it doesn't work out or you get scurs (which is likely), a decent disbudding iron wouldn't cost much and would be nicer than having to have someone else do it.  You'll have to let us know how it turns out.


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 6, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> Not sure what it should look like.  Never seen it used on a goat before so maybe someone else can pipe in.  If it doesn't work out or you get scurs (which is likely), a decent disbudding iron wouldn't cost much and would be nicer than having to have someone else do it.  You'll have to let us know how it turns out.


Thanks, I really hope to get one soon. They just happened to need disbudding at a very financially inconvenient time. I'm in contact with a local owner of ND goats, so hopefully I can have them done properly very shortly. Next time around I will make sure to have an iron of my own in time.

I do hope someone can chime in and let me know a few things about the boys I did. Mainly:

How long until I see scurs if they are going to appear?
Can they be disbudded using an iron in a few days? I would imagine so, since the whole area gets obliterated by the iron, so it shouldn't matter that I already used the paste, right? Won't proceed without knowing though.

Thanks


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 6, 2013)

If they are two week old bucklings, you better do it soon or you will be getting a vet to do it again later.  Forget scurs, you'll have horns.

We're doing two this weekend who are 11 days old.  We should have done this Wed when they were 7 days old.


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 6, 2013)

It looks like Wednesday for the other guys, and possibly to redo my boys. I definitely dropped the ball this year, and I know to be better prepared next time around. Hopefully all is well in the end.


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## Missy (Apr 7, 2013)

Is anyone here near you that could help? I would be willing, and have a disbudding iron, if you were close to me, not many are close though I am in UP UP UP state NY. (think Vermont/Canada border)


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 7, 2013)

Missy said:
			
		

> Is anyone here near you that could help? I would be willing, and have a disbudding iron, if you were close to me, not many are close though I am in UP UP UP state NY. (think Vermont/Canada border)


Thanks for the offer! I am in NH on the mid-VT/NH border, so I'm a ways away. I found a lady about a half hour away from here that can help me out. Thanks though!


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## elevan (Apr 7, 2013)

There is a mobile unit called Healthy Herds in NH that does things like this.

Here's their info.


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 7, 2013)

elevan said:
			
		

> There is a mobile unit called Healthy Herds in NH that does things like this.
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> Here's their info.


Thanks. I did contact them, and they were out of my price range (would have been about $150).


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## TGreenhut (Apr 7, 2013)

s.z.ichigo said:
			
		

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That's crazy expensive! I go to someone who does it for $10 a goat!


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 7, 2013)

TGreenhut said:
			
		

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Well, to be fair it was $20 per goat, but at $1 per mile, the travel cost was prohibitive. And it was too far for me to take them myself since they'd be separated from their mothers for hours. I've got a lady much closer helping me on Wednesday at $10 per goat.


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## TGreenhut (Apr 7, 2013)

s.z.ichigo said:
			
		

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Great, I'm glad you found a better solution! Good luck with disbudding- it's one of my least favorite parts about raising goats.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 8, 2013)

Do you apply that paste one time?  How does it work?


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 8, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> Do you apply that paste one time?  How does it work?


The way I understand it, is the paste causes a chemical burn to the skin around the horn, and that keeps new horn cells from growing. It's kind of like Nair, if you've ever used that, and leaving it on your skin for too long feels a lot like a Nair burn.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 8, 2013)

s.z.ichigo said:
			
		

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But, do you just put it on one time?  I'm just curious.  We have a disbudding iron.

You said you have someone coming this week with an iron?

How old will they be, and how big are the buds?


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 8, 2013)

You're supposed to put it on just one time, yes. We did multiple tries ourselves because it took a while to get the hang of it, and I kept doing it wrong. In theory, it's a single application.
My guys are about three weeks old now. They're Nigerian Dwarfs, so their horns don't grow as fast as full-size goats, but this is still a long time to be waiting, from what I've heard. It's hard to say how big the horns are, as I'm not sure how you're supposed to measure them. Most of them feel more like hard little mounds under the fur, rather than protruding horns.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 8, 2013)

*Glad you found a better option. I was going to suggest finding a used iron on Craigslist and watching videos on YouTube. *


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

s.z.ichigo said:
			
		

> You're supposed to put it on just one time, yes. We did multiple tries ourselves because it took a while to get the hang of it, and I kept doing it wrong. In theory, it's a single application.
> My guys are about three weeks old now. They're Nigerian Dwarfs, so their horns don't grow as fast as full-size goats, but this is still a long time to be waiting, from what I've heard. It's hard to say how big the horns are, as I'm not sure how you're supposed to measure them. Most of them feel more like hard little mounds under the fur, rather than protruding horns.


I have Nigerians also.  I have no experience with full sized goats, but i can tell you that ND bucks grow pretty fast.

We usually disbud at 7-10 days old.  Bucks always, sometimes does need to be done that fast.

We did two bucklings on Sunday that were 11 days old.

At 11 days old, after we made the first burn, we took our hoof trimming shears and cut the bud back flush with the skull. It was already up about 3/8" above the skull.

We applied the second burn in a figure 8 so that the edge of the iron would be on the horn bud to carterize.


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 9, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

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Oh man, am I going to have to do that?? I'm hoping that post-burn they don't feel it? I'll have to look up what a figure-8 burn is now.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

s.z.ichigo said:
			
		

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Bucks have a larger horn base, so you can either use a larger tip on the disbudding iron, or you can do a figure 8.  It's pretty clear.  First burn leaves a circle.  2nd burn you over lap the first burn, but expand the area, forward like down towards their snout.

We put 3 burns per horn on these guys.  And took hoof trimming shears and cut the buds off after first burn.

If I get home early enough today, I'll get some pictures.  Maybe somebody else can show you some pictures though.

I know it sounds kind of rough, and that's why some people don't disbud.  Trust me I know.  We hate doing it.

But, I also know that five minutes after you put them back in the pen they act like nothing happened.

And the boys don't seem to hold a grudge.  Next day they will come up to you like nothing ever happened.

It's much worse if you have to do it a second time.  Trust me I know.  Or, it get's expensive if you have to get the vet to do it when they are 4 months old.  Trust me, been there too.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

I think you can see the figure 8 in these pictures.  Like I said these guys were 11 days old.  Their buds were a good 3/8".  After the first burn we took roof trimming shears and cut the buds as close to flush as we could get it.  When we made the 2nd burn on the figure 8 it carterized the cut, although they didn't bleed very much.

After the burn, you should see the nice copper color.  You can see that here.  Where it is turning black is where it's starting to scab.  You'll get a scab cap that will fall off.

We put an ice compress between burns, and spray with an anticeptic burn spray when we finish.


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 9, 2013)

Okay, I get it now. Thanks for the pictures! Does this accomplish the same thing I've seen people do in videos where they use the side of the iron to re-burn the top? I will be sure to buy antiseptic spray tomorrow if I'm going to be drawing blood. The horns aren't that big though, I don't think. They don't stick up through the fur or anything. I guess it will be a game-day decision.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

I bet they are bigger than you think
If they were breaking the skin they'd be 3/4"

Did they cut the buds before they did the thing with the side of the iron?


Of course, maybe the paste did something there.

Get something like Solarcain or some generic version


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 9, 2013)

No, they didn't cut them, I think they were kind of filling in the circle to ensure it was complete. You're probably right though, once the burn is done, I imagine the horns will end up being bigger than I think they are. I was thinking you meant 3/8" over the surface of the skin. I'll take a picture tomorrow of the pasted horns and maybe get a more knowledgable opinion on how they look. My dusbuddings have been pushed back to Thursday.

I'm very grateful for all the info I'm getting here, thank you


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 9, 2013)

*The breeders around here burn all the way to the skull and pop off the caps with the hot iron, then sprays with blue kote. Takes about 3 weeks to heal, you do get the scabs that fall off, but they are fine. I've heard that's the only way to prevent scurs. *


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## s.z.ichigo (Apr 11, 2013)

Just an update on the babies. We had a lady out here today to do them with the iron, and to have a look at the two that had the paste.

The two boys that got the paste we're letting go to see what happens. She said it looked like a good burn, so hopefully there won't be a problem with scurs. It's entirely likely that they still will get them, but we'll see what they look like before deciding whether or not to do anything further.

Their sister got the iron, and was the easiest to do. It looked fairly clean, but one horn cap had a bit of bleeding.

The youngest, but largest, boy also got the iron. he took quite a lot of work on one of his horns to get the cap off. It was very stubborn. 

The biggest girl looked like her horns were just too large, so we didn't attempt any disbudding on her. She'll just have to wear the natural look.

So that's where we stand. We're going to watch all of them for scurs and deal with them as they come, which due to their ages I understand is likely. I learned a big lesson about waiting too long, and next year I hope to do much better. Right now they're all hanging out, looking like nothing ever happened. In a little while we'll let their mothers back in with them.


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