# jessie the new asd



## bcnewe2 (Apr 26, 2013)

OK, I did it.  We brought Jessie home last night.  She's a 4 month old asd! She's going to be guarding the sheep and chickens.  She came from a totally awesome farm.  They had about 15 give or take adult lgds and puppies. 2 litters on the ground actually running loose helping the big dogs.  We saw geese, chickens, peafowl, ducks (2 spring fed creeks) goats, yaks, ox, highland cattle, alpacas, llamas and of course sheep.  I know I'm missing some.  Such harmony on 180 acres. It looked like a carpet of asd's in the drive. The owner said they all go out with the animals in the am and lead them in, in the evening. I met the Dad to all the puppies, and 2 mommas. I  really couldn't tell which momma was Jessie's.  Felt so....cohesive and peaceful .

Poor Jessie had her ideallic world turned upside down.  She is out in the barn with 6 weanling lambs and a bottle baby.  I'm keeping her penned up right in the middle of them with as much time as I can spare out with them. I will let her loose as soon as I know that th  pen will hold her (working on electric and has field fencing already) she was out with them at least 4 hrs. Plus I let her out when I feed the bottle baby. 

 Last night she had a little panic attack, I found her screaming out of the pen.  Working on digging out of the paddock.  I loved her a bit, and calmed her down. Stuck her in a crate, in the pen, in the lamb paddock.  Found her sleeping soundly this morning.  Hasn't tried to climb out again (I did work on Fort Knox a bit more)  other than her puppy antics, she seems way laid back.

I named her Hester but she told me her name was Jessie today.  

The border collies pretend they don't see her (couldn't have asked for better) but it is breaking my heart making her stay out there with sheep she doesn't know.  

The plan is to see the bottle baby grow and the 2 of them bond and that will be the start.  

Any suggestions? Or something I forgot? Some people I know are mean to their lgds, I just don't see how anyone could be mean.  I want her to guard all of us. Not just the sheep. 

Feels so good to have a guard dog again. Warms your heart.
I'll try and get pictures tomorrow.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 26, 2013)

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Southern by choice (Apr 27, 2013)

Where are the pictures?? :/


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 27, 2013)

:bun Yes, pics?


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## Four Winds Ranch (Apr 27, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Where are the pictures?? :/


X2


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 27, 2013)

Here you go! 
It's rainy and yucky so not to good but still hard to take a bad picture of a sweetie!

Jess and the bottle lamb






Jess watching the lambs eat





Jess in fort knox but the gates open she's eating and the lambs are eating, no mixing says Jess while food is involved and that's a good thing. I hate it when you can't keep the sheep from eating the dogs food.






I'll try and get some in the sun if it comes out tomorrow!


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## Southern by choice (Apr 27, 2013)

YAYAYAYAYA!!  

:bun :bun :bun

yes, I get giddy about LGD's... I know you appreciate a good working dog too, so I don't feel too silly.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Apr 29, 2013)

She's beautiful!   I bet she settles in real soon.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 29, 2013)

How to keep a lgd puppy in when she doesn't want to be kept in!  I can keep her in Fort Knox but if I want her out with the sheep it's hard. I put electric up around the perimeter and she hit that yesterday, she ran into her cage and didn't want to come back out. I might have to string electric on the gates too! I put no climb on them and blocked any holes she might have seen the border collies going through but....she's a crafty little girl!

I sure hope she is bonding to the sheep soon!  The other dogs are still ignoring her but she's doing her darnedest to make them like her.  
Poor sweet darling!


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## Southern by choice (Apr 29, 2013)

Yep they are crafty.

The bonding thing is often "overdone". There are many LGD's that DO NOT bon to the animals . They respect them and guard them but not always bonded to them.

*Our 4 LGD's*

*Anatolian- Callie*- does not bond, seeks acceptance of the goat herd queen and also knows the goats DON'T want to bond with her. She will fiercly guard them no matter what. The new kids love to hang with her but she does not "overly attach". She  does best with the Kiko does.  Paired with "D"

*Pyr- male "D"* Guards no bonding... lets kids jump on him and  he can be moved within ANY group we have. "D" can be a lone dog, he doesn't care. He does LOVE, and I mean LOVE Callie.

*Pyr -male Badger*- Utterly Competely bonded with our bucks... mostly the 2 Nigerian Dwarf bucks. Panics and will do anything to get back with them... The kiko buck play fights with the Nigies and Badger is always right there... he hates it... he bonded with the one ND when the ND was 6 wks and Badger was 4- 4 1/2 months. Cannot move him with other goats as he really laments. He does very well with the smaller goats. Badgers type print as a puppy ( traits) was he MUST have a buddy. He is generally paired with Amy.

*Pyr- Female- Amy*- Territory guardian, can be moved with anyone. Amy does well alone. Easiest dog of all in some ways. She doesn't care for the does much. She stays with the Bucks.

The _bonding intensely_ has some serious drawbacks. We have intentionally moved all of our dogs through different fields with different groups.  This makes it easier to add new livestock... move them to a new field and adjust.  

Acceptance by the sheep or goats may very well take 6-12 months... this will not deter her from doing her job.  Right now it is good she understands she is the lowest in the pecking order.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 29, 2013)

Thanks Southern...I feel better now. I worry so much since my last lgd was a big fat fail and my bc's didn't accept her either. I had to place her in a pet home. She is doing wonderful but I lost out on a guard. I was devastated but did what I thought best for the dog. My AR dogs and my CO dogs (one was the fail but was doing good out there) were great but....once you have a fail it's hard to think it's going to be ok.   

Lot of money sunk into that little girl. Medical issues (weird rashes) then a failed FHO (femoral head ostectomy) so she became a 3 legger.  hit by car on Christmas eve.  horrible story....But happy ending for her!

So if she doesn't like or really bond to sheep how will I get her to stay with them or in the barn. I hate to have her out there alone although she does have the chickens close by.  I gave the bottle baby away last night. She was playing way to rough with it and no momma to watch her. Almost broke her leg just loving her. I knew she was to young but I was hoping that bottle baby would hang with the rest of the sheep so would be protected by proxy. but.....she now lives across the street at the neighbors. I perfect place!

Yes the border collies are a prejudice lot.  If you're not black and white and working sheep they don't like you!  Good but...she is sad....

I plugged her holes this morning and she's staying out there but the sheep need to go graze. I think I'll just keep a few in.  then trade out tonight...

really....thanks Southern. You're a Godsend and a plethora of information!


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## Southern by choice (Apr 29, 2013)

I am not a big fan of putting a young pup in with young lambs/kids. This is like a disaster waiting to happen...usually.
A young pup WITH a mature LGD is a different story as the mature dog will teach the pup. 
When starting with a pup and no adult guardian there is a bit of a "curve". One must work with the pup.

There are a few things to also consider in your scenario. You have WORKING herding dogs!
I am not an LGD snob and I LOVE HERDING DOGS. Have had GSD's for 3 generation of my family. That's a lot of GSD's over many many years.

Their jobs as you know are very different. Many do not think herding dogs will guard or protect which is simply not true. They just cannot do what a LGD can do. Most people do not have LGD's *and* Herding dogs.  They generally have one or the other. For those few that have both there must be some consideration to 1. the nature of the dogs 2. establishing parameters for both.

Herding dogs herd... they "chase" in order to move the livestock, this is their job. The job is to disturb the flock and move them, nipping at heels etc. 
LGD's.... move slowly, are calm, they generally never disturb the herd/flock.  When a LGD that is guarding and protecting a herding dog is almost an enemy at that point. It is something chasing THEIR herd/flock.

Outside of the fence in which they guard all is fine and the dogs should be socialized to get along well. *INSIDE* of that fence the livestock *BELONGS to the LGD*. 

Working within these parameters is best all around. Working against these natural instincts will cause confusion to the LGD and usually end in a bad way. Either the LGD has no clue now what you want it to do or it will kill the herding dogs. A big mistake most make in having these different abilitied dogs is to NOT keep them separate. 

Herding dogs are not used all day. They may be used 1x -2x daily on average...depending on amount of animals, farm type etc.
It is best to put the LGD up, where it cannot see what these herding dogs are doing. Allow herding dogs to do what they need to do then remove them out of the LGD's field. Turn the LGD out afterwards. Those that leave them in are really stressing the LGD out... they have instinct to kill ANY animal chasing their livestock.

Herding dogs are loyal to their human master that is their desire... to please the master. Herding dogs are highly trainable as you know, this is what makes them so great at what they do.
LGD's are loyal to their livestock, ultimately they do not care if they please you or not. They are extremely sensitive to shame and blame but not to the extent of allowing that to hinder [_b]what they think they need to do[/b]_.


OK so my computer is dorking up right now... I will have to finish this in a bit.... Also bcnewe2 I know you know most of this info already but I try to write out things for others that may not know different aspects of herding and working dogs


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 30, 2013)

Just wanted to add my experiences with LGD and herding dogs.
Most of my sheep friends have border collies, some have other herding breeds but most bc's.
Anyone that has more than a couple acres or a couple of sheep, not living to close to town has LGD's and BC's. LGD's are a must to save the lives or our sheep.  
They can and do live together.  But only when all are respected. I do not let my herding dogs harass the sheep. We are serious about our job and that is moving the sheep where they need to go without stressing them.  I have never had an issue combining the 2. 
Usually the border collies do not like the LGD's, but that means ignoring them and working around them.  If a young LGD gets in the face of one of my dogs working stock, they pretend they don't see it, if it keeps bothering them they will correct the LGD but it usually doesn't go that far. Once ignored or lip lifted the young LGD's move along with the sheep or go off to the side and watch.

There are other herding breeds that are duel purpose breeds, made to herd livestock and guard livestock. BUT, that doesn't usually happen with a border collie.  If it does, it is not of the quality that I prefer.  I trial my dogs at the highest level.  The training is long and arduous.  It also keeps them very keen to work, so expecting them to lay around (which they would) would be like torture for them.  Eventually they would step in and want to move things just because it's what they do.  So when not at work they are my house mates or kept in an enclosed area,  kennel or fenced yard.  I have no yard fence so my dogs stay with me in the house unless we're working.

I could see it being an issue if herding dogs were left outside to work or harass the livestock at will, but again, my dogs are not left unsupervised. The trained ones could be, and are trustworthy but the young ones would find themselves face to face with an LGD or me!  My first commitment to the livestock is due no harm and cause no stress.  Yes there is a time when I'm training a young herding dog and there is controlled stress but I keep some wethers around for that and even then, I do not let undue stress happen if at all possible.  

LGD's can and do understand the intent of a herding dog.  I once had a dog (didn't keep him long) that was more a stock killer than a worker, Went to someone elses house (A very well known trainer) and within a few minutes of tying that dog up to a fence to wait our turn he had all the LGD's (there were 3) right in his face. They didn't hurt him but made it clear he intentions were not something they were going to tolerate.

I'm sure Southern knows LGD's way better than me and she has been a great wealth of information but in this matter we differ slightly.

I do say she is 100% right about everything else she has said.  And mostly right in this area except with highly trained herding dogs.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 30, 2013)

quick question for Southern...
Do you put a young LGD in with Momma's and lambs or kids?  If not how do you introduce them and when? What I have found is that the momma's usually protect the babies and the dog quickly learns what is tolerated and not. But....I would love to hear how you raise a young pup.  I could use all the advise you can throw at me!

Thanks


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## Grazer (Apr 30, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Yep they are crafty.
> 
> *The bonding thing is often "overdone". There are many LGD's that DO NOT bon to the animals . They respect them and guard them but not always bonded to them*.
> 
> ...


This is so true and very important to remember IMO


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