# Signs that Hereford heifers are getting close to calving?



## glenolam

We have three Hereford heifers and all were in with a bull from November 1 - January 1 (or so, basically 2 mos).  My husband and his grandfather thinks that only two of the three are bred, but I really don't see a difference among them.

What should I be seeing if they have a month to go (assuming they were all bred during 1st heat cycle)?  What about 2 mos to go assuming they didn't take on 1st cycle and took on 2nd?

I've looked at their udders and they don't seem to have grown at all, but their teats do look a little longer/fuller, but I mean _a little_.

Do beef cows have smaller udders than dairy cows?


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## aggieterpkatie

You've got more than a month.  If they were bred on Nov 1, they wouldn't be due until around August 10.  If they were bred Jan 1, they'd be due Oct. 10th.  

All livestock have pretty similar signs of impending labor.  Definitely look for udder growth (yes, dairy cows have larger udders, but beef cows have fairly large udders).  Look for significant changes when they bag up.  They'll be fairly isolated from the herd, their tailhead will relax and usually their tail will be held out from their body a bit.  Look for discharge from the vulva, etc.


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## WildRoseBeef

Well, the teats on beef cows and dairy cows are really the same.  I wouldn't go by how they are bagging up in terms of if they are bred or getting close or not.  But yes, beef cows will have much smaller udders than dairy cows.

Physically they should look like their pregnant, with big bellies and all.  But the best way to be sure is to restrain them in a headgate, glove up and reach inside (thru the rectum) to feel for a calf.  If you or any of your folks feel they're not up to the task, get a vet out to do it for you.  He/she will even tell you how far along they are.


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## jhm47

Virgin heifers tend to bag up much earlier than mature cows.  You will definitely know about two months prior to calving that they are bred due to their udder development.  As cows age, they tend to show much less udder development before calving.  I have quite a few 8 - 10 year old cows that show absolutely no swelling or development till the day before they calve.  The most effective way that I use to tell when calving is imminent, is that their vulva will swell up and begin to be "floppy" when they walk.  Their tail heads will also seem to raise up a bit, and cause a depression alongside their tails.  

It has been my experience that vets are not always the best ones to palpate cows and estimate due dates.  Many of today's vets are well skilled in small animal work, and rarely have much call for preg checking cattle.  We have a professional preg checker in our neighborhood who checks nearly 50,000 cows each year, and he's very accurate.  Our vet can barely tell if they are pregnant or not, but he's great on dogs and cats.  

I have been preg checking our own herd for several decades, and have gotten better, but still need a lot more practice.


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## glenolam

Thanks!  I think I made a mistake in the dates they were with the bull (runs and calls DH to make sure.....) Yep - they were in with the bull from Oct - Dec, which is why we were thinking July/Aug.

They are virgin heifers, but, to me, their udders haven't gotten much bigger.  Guess we still have a few months to go.

We haven't seen them come into heat...well, there was 1 time when one tried to mate with another, which is also why my husband and his grandfather think she's not bred.  To me, they all look the same, although the bellies on two of them do look a little lower/fuller, but not much.

I hate the waiting game - I feel like they just stare at me saying "what - you want to know if I'm pregnant?  Too bad!"


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> Thanks!  I think I made a mistake in the dates they were with the bull (runs and calls DH to make sure.....) Yep - they were in with the bull from Oct - Dec, which is why we were thinking July/Aug.
> 
> They are virgin heifers, but, to me, their udders haven't gotten much bigger.  Guess we still have a few months to go.
> 
> We haven't seen them come into heat...well, there was 1 time when one tried to mate with another, which is also why my husband and his grandfather think she's not bred.  To me, they all look the same, although the bellies on two of them do look a little lower/fuller, but not much.
> 
> I hate the waiting game - I feel like they just stare at me saying "what - you want to know if I'm pregnant?  Too bad!"


Do you have facilities to handle them? If so, send in a blood sample to Biotracking. It's cheaper than paying someone to come out.  Although, you'd only be able to tell if they're preg or not, not how far along they are.  It beats waiting!


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## glenolam

Unfortunately, we don't have the facilities at our little farm to do a blood sample.  We have a local farmer who helps us if/when we are in need, but luckily we haven't had to call him for any emergencies.

As I said...guess it's just the waiting game...


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## Arock

How old are the heifers?
What kind of bull did you use? 

Are they springing yet?


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## herfrds

Figure 40 1/2 weeks.

Too bad you do not have a squeeze chute I would just tell you to put on a shoulder glove and take a feel rectally.

We have had heifers show no sign of bagging up until right before they calve and have had a couple that did not bag until after they calved so do not count on that being a sign.


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## glenolam

Arock said:
			
		

> How old are the heifers?


They are about two years old.  We got them in Aug 2008 and were told they were 9 mos old.  We waited to breed them until last year because we weren't confident they were 9 mos and figured it might be safer just to wait another year.



> What kind of bull did you use?


We used a polled hereford bull, the same breed.  He belongs to our friend; I'm unsure of the bulls age, but know he has bred cows for a few years.  We saw several of his calves last year when we dropped our cows off - they all were healthy.



> Are they springing yet?


I'm not sure what you mean....

It's really hard to determine how much bigger they have gotten.  It's kind of like watching your children grow...you don't realize how tall/big they actually are until one day you realize they aren't at your knee anymore, they reach your shoulder!  Our girls have definitely grown since we first got them, and my husband said he was watching two of them laying down the other day and couldn't believe the size of their bellies as they were laying.  I asked if he saw anything moving but he said he wasn't watching for that... 

Got to say I'm much more excited about this than he is!


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## herfrds

By springing they mean the vulva is starting to look swollen and getting sloppy. It will no longer look normal.
They will also lose a mucas plug.


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## amysflock

When the previous poster says sloppy...think unreasonably soft and floppy in the lips of the vagina. Heifers can start developing udders sooner than cows would, but it's by degrees and they aren't likely to have HUGE udders, even by calving. (And I'm talking huge by beef standards...beef cattle will never have udders as large as dairy breeds.)

Signs of imminent calving include going off by themselves, pacing the fenceline, eating aggressively and then losing interest mid-bite, kicking at their flanks, etc.

We weren't able to witness our first cow or heifer when they calved in 2008, but this year we saw both of their calves born. I noted very "labor-like" restlessness the couple hours before they calved. By the time each was laying down and getting right back up they were in active labor, and the calves came within 45 minutes. It was exciting! I figured the younger cow was going into labor that morning, but she didn't actually calve until late afternoon/early evening. These were only our 3rd and 4th calves and we're still getting the hang of labor signs. It's tough to predict!!

Keep us posted...


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## glenolam

Quick update - we saw the most awesome thing yesterday.  They had all been lying down by the fence line, so I walked up to say hello.  All three got up, so I started looking at their udders.  It looks like they are slowly bagging up - by no means are they full, but it does look like there's a little production going on.

So we are all staring at the cows and suddenly I saw this huge angle jab out the side of one of them!  We just watched in amazement for about 5-10 minutes as the calf inside rolled around and shoved it's hoof or nose or _something_ against the cow's side.

We watched the other two and didn't see anything, but I know that's common.  It really was a site to see!

Now, all three look to have discharge coming out - it's starting to clump together and hang like black string...is that normal?  I can post a pic tonight if need be.


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## Arock

When they are springing & their bags & teats are full...especially their teats. One day you think their bag couldn't get much bigger...the next day their teats are full, like they dropped their milk into the teats. 
I kept my heifers in a small pasture by my house when they started springing. I don't like hunting for first calf heifers. I want to be able to check on them several times a night. Another trick is to always feed in the evening, close to 5pm. Most cows fed in the evening will deliver during the day. It worked for me. I only had one cow calve in the middle of the night. I didn't know about evening feeding when she calved.


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## glenolam

Here's some pics of the girls - the pics are about a month old


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## herfrds

Nice looking group.

I did a record keeping on our calving time for 4 years. 3/4 of our 60 head calved between 6am-11pm and that was feeding at 8am. the other 1/4 calved from 11pm-6am.
wrote down the time of each calves birth.


They will also hump up their back and in more advanced labor walk around with their tail out.

just curious do you have OB chains or straps and a puller?


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## glenolam

Thanks for the compliment - they came to us kinda small and skinny (of course, they were young too) and have really filled out nicely.  (Knock on wood) we haven't had a health issue _yet_.  The pic was of them in our backyard.  We had planted grass seed in the spring and didn't mow FOREVER so instead of mowing we just let them graze a bit every afternoon.  Of course, that meant constant watch to make sure they didn't eat the apple trees or any of my plants...  The heifer looking at the camera in the 2nd picture (who's also the one in front in the 1st pic) is the one we saw all the movement in the other day.

Yes, luckily my husband's grandfather owned several head back in the day so he still has a bunch of stuff on hand to assist with birthing, meds, etc.  He wasn't a cattle farmer, per se, more of a saw mill operation, but dabbled in beef cattle and saw plenty of births in his day.  And we have a few close friends who are way more experience and can help, if needed.


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## herfrds

So how are they looking now?


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## glenolam

Ya know - it's really funny that you brought this post back up because I just took pics of their rears Saturday so I could post an update!

We're thinking that one is most likely not bred.  She's barely bagged up, no flabbyness to her vagina and just doesn't seem as big as the other two.  We're hoping we're wrong, but what can you do?

The one on the left is bagging up and we're thinking she'll go first.  The one on the right is the one we're not thinking is bred






Here's two individual pics of those two

Bred:                                                    Not bred?








I couldn't get a really good pic of the third heifer, but she's just about as bagged up as the first gal.

One question, though.  The heifer we're thinking will go first has this bump on her underside.  Does this mean anything? (_Pic deleted to free up some memory space_)

Thanks!


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> Ya know - it's really funny that you brought this post back up because I just took pics of their rears Saturday so I could post an update!
> 
> We're thinking that one is most likely not bred.  She's barely bagged up, no flabbyness to her vagina and just doesn't seem as big as the other two.  We're hoping we're wrong, but what can you do?
> 
> The one on the left is bagging up and we're thinking she'll go first.  The one on the right is the one we're not thinking is bred
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/1691_cimg4111.jpg
> 
> Here's two individual pics of those two
> 
> Bred:                                                    Not bred?
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/1691_cimg4108.jpg http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/1691_cimg4109.jpg
> 
> I couldn't get a really good pic of the third heifer, but she's just about as bagged up as the first gal.
> 
> One question, though.  The heifer we're thinking will go first has this bump on her underside.  Does this mean anything? I tried to take the best pic I could of it:
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/1691_cimg4113.jpg
> 
> Thanks!


The bump looks like her umbilicus to me.  

And it's hard to tell if the other one is bred or not. She could be bred later than the other one.  Sometimes they bag up at different rates, so that could be it too.


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## herfrds

Can you get a picture straight on of the one heifer you think is open? How about a side view?


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## glenolam

You mean the one we're thinking isn't bred?  Straight on from behind or the front?  I realized the pic I took of her nether region is blurred b/c her tail got in the way...

I can get pics up tonight after I get home.


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## amysflock

I agree with Aggie, the "open" (unbred) heifer could have been bred later and isn't as close as the other. It's very difficult to know without knowing her cycles...have you seen her display any "heat" behavior, like mounting the other girl(s), bellowing, vaginal discharge, etc.? Not all females display obvious signs of heat, so that's not a surefire test. What is, though, is a vet palpitation.


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## glenolam

We're pretty certain we've seen her have two heat cycles - but it was just mounting.  No big bellowing going on like they all did before they visited with the bull or discharge.

At this point, to us anyway, there's no need or reason for a vet palpitation because if she's not bred she's the first to take a walk down the road (quite literally, actaully!).  We're raising them for ourselves, no one else and not to sell, so if she doesn't calve it's no real loss on our part.  Just means we get steaks and hamburger sooner than we expected.


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## amysflock

I hear ya! We raise our Highlands for breeding/show stock and a little beef, and our old girl Natalie (aged 7), who we bought in January, needs to breed back when the bull visits or she's hitting the road, too. We're hoping she does because she has beautiful conformation and movement, but if she doesn't produce a calf, well, she can't stay! And based on our last butchering experience on an old cow (in April), we'd have no problem selling her as burger.


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## glenolam

OK - I've taken a few more pics.  The one we think will go first has now begun to fill her teats with milk!

#1 (bred one going first)














#2 (bred, most likely will calve second)













#3 (not sure if she's bred or not) - OK so I'm stupid - thought I took a pic of her nether's but guess I didn't!  A few posts above I put a pic that I took on Saturday.












Thoughts???


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## herfrds

I want to say yes bred and no not bred.
Honestly I would glove up and go in just to take a feel.

We have had a few cows bull on others that were bred.
Best way to tell is to do a palpation.

If i was closer I would do it.


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## glenolam

What do you think of #1 and #2?  #1's vagina, to me, looks as though it's "springing" - it's definitely more swollen and flabby than it was on Saturday....


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> What do you think of #1 and #2?  #1's vagina, to me, looks as though it's "springing" - it's definitely more swollen and flabby than it was on Saturday....


It's actually the vulva.  The vagina is on the inside.    Sorry, pet peeve of mine.


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## glenolam

Sorry 'bout that!  I'm trying to use technical terms instead of the terms I would rather use, like nether regions, girlie part, or just "that place where babies come out of"

A side note - our son who's 5 now hides under a towel or blanket and says he's a calf inside the mother's belly and she has to push/pull him out --- she being me!  

Before that he would hide and say that I was Eloise (my momma goat) and he was one of her babies and I had to help him get out of the "tummy" and before _that_ he pretended the blanket was an egg and he was a chick or duckling that was cracking out...

I won't get into detail of how I explained how he came out of me - he just thinks people babies come out of mother's belly buttons and that those "things" every mom has are pillows for babies to sleep on 

I think we're exposing him to too much!


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## WildRoseBeef

To me, by just studying her from the side and ignoring the picture of the rear, #1 looks like she's open.  If she does have a calf, from the way the picture is and from the sides of her, she looks like she's going to have a small calf.  Her vulva certainly looks suspicious like she'll be dropping a calf in 24 hours.  #1 is a bit thinner than I'd like her to be too, as #1 _and _#3 should be in the same condition as #2.  But in all honesty, I think #1 is either early in gestation, or open, or is going to give birth to a very small calf.

As for #2, she's in EXCELENT condition. Notice on her left side that that is not a baby, but her rumen. But, she looks bigger than either #1 or #3, and by that I mean she could definately be bred, but still have a few more months to go until she spits a calf out.  

#3 should be in the condition of #2, though is better than #1.  She looks like she'll be calving after #2, from the size of her belly (on the right side I'm looking: again, remember the rumen is always on the left). You didn't post a pic of #3's udder/vulva, I notice.

So I agree with herfrds, have a rectal palpation done on them just to be sure if they are ALL bred or not (my money's on #1 isn't bred or is a bit earlier in gestation than #2 or #3), but from looking at the photos, the sequence of calving will be: #3, #2, and #1, if #1 doesn't abort or have a pre-mature calf.

Just my thoughts.


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## amysflock

I completely agree with Karin. If #1 and #3 are bred, you're going to need to supplement their feed. Hopefully if either is bred you have some time before calving, because putting any condition on cows of that body score will be difficult if not impossible once they're nursing a calf. You really need to get a vet out to palpitate ASAP so you can know for sure what to do about #1 and #3. If they're not bred, consider yourself lucky, and work on getting their BCS score up before you try to breed them back.

I'm speaking from experience here...our younger cow, Bridgit, was a light BCS 4, more like a 3, when she calved in December 2008, and we wasted a TON of money trying to get her condition up while she was nursing. We did finally succeed after trying a variety of rations (and everything we tried up until we used only rolled corn just caused her to pour more groceries into her calf via milk rather than putting on weight). Not only did it cost a lot, but it was very disappointing AND time consuming AND not something I felt good about doing. (I'd rather not have to grain my animals at all.) (I will add that Bridgit was bred too early for a Highland...she was only 25 months old when she calved and most of us aim for 36+ months age at calving. We bought her bred and didn't know any better. She kept better condition this time around and delivered a decent-sized calf, but is just hanging onto the small end of good BCS, nothing impressive. I think 2008 stunted her. Lucky for me, she'll be butchered this winter.)


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## glenolam

Thanks for the opinions and suggestions!  We'll work on conditioning them up more.  FWIW heifer #1 does look boney in that pic, but standing right with her she doesn't look as badly as she does in the pic.  I'll check them out again tonight and see if I can get better ones in the sunlight.  They are on pasture all day and we give them 2-3 square bales of quality hay (I believe it's timothy/alfalfa/white clover mix, but I could be wrong) as well as 2 5 gal bucket fulls of grain at night.

What else should we feed them?

It's really odd that you say #1 isn't bred or will have a small calf - #1 has developed the biggest udder so far and looks the biggest in person, #2's udder is coming along and #3 looks as though she may be coming into milk, but we can't see too much of a difference right now.


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> It's really odd that you say #1 isn't bred or will have a small calf - #1 has developed the biggest udder so far and looks the biggest in person, #2's udder is coming along and #3 looks as though she may be coming into milk, but we can't see too much of a difference right now.


IMO, they're all still too far out to take guesses on calving order. Some bag up early, some late.  I'd venture to guess you still have several weeks before calving.  That's just my guess based on the pictures.


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## glenolam

But the guesses are the fun part!   We're making friendly bets with our family members who "know" more than we do


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> But the guesses are the fun part!   We're making friendly bets with our family members who "know" more than we do


Oh, I don't mean you can't make guesses. I mean it's too early to say "that one is definitely going first".  Sometimes it's dangerous to do that, because one might surprise you and catch you off guard.


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## amysflock

Each of the three is getting 2 5-gallon buckets of grain per night, or 10-gal worth in a common trough for them to share? I'm trying to recall...I think we were only giving Bridgit about 3 lbs/day. I would be concerned personally about over feeding grain as a regular practice...cattle aren't built to digest it properly and it can harm their livers...although maybe with ample hay and pasture free choice they're fine. What mix are you using? If they're sharing out of one trough, it's possible #2 is getting the most, #3 second, and #1 is at the bottom of the totem pole and gets the dregs when she can. This can also be true for hay, depending on how you feed them. If #1 is getting pushed out of the way, then she's going to have a harder time competing for groceries. If that's the case, you may want to try feeding in 2 or three areas (not too far apart, but far enough that if #1 is pushed from spot A, she can move to the next available open area and continue eating...we fed on the ground which does result in more waste, but made it easier for Bridgit to eat...and now all three play ring-around-the-rosie with the 12' diameter hay ring, but Bridgit can still find a spot to eat.)

I second glenolam's comment on bagging up. They are all different and do it in their own time. I also agree with an earlier comment, too, that #1's vulva looks suspiciously floppy, although perhaps she's just a little floppier as a normal thing for her. (Our older cow, Natalie, has a looser-looking vulva every day than our other two, and she's not bred.)

Oh, and about the guessing...it may go on for a looonnnngggg time. Also speaking from personal experience here! Our girls were bred when we got them home, but were pasture exposed for a longer period of time that we'd have liked. I started checking Bridgit nightly in October, thinking she was close to ready, and she calved December 2nd!)


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## glenolam

They share 2 - 5 gal buckets of grain, which is usually either a 10% sweet feed or 12% dry feed.  We feed on the ground, not in a trough which, as you said, produces waste, but does allow them to have their own feeding areas.  We usually split the bales and put them a bit a part from each other so everyone gets a chance.

It could very well be our minds playing tricks, though, because #2 (with the horns) is who we thought was on the bottom.  After watching them for 2 yrs we'd always see #1 and #3 eating comfortably, all the while pushing #2 out of the area, so that's when we started spreading the feed out.


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## WildRoseBeef

glenolam said:
			
		

> Thanks for the opinions and suggestions!  We'll work on conditioning them up more.  FWIW heifer #1 does look boney in that pic, but standing right with her she doesn't look as badly as she does in the pic.  I'll check them out again tonight and see if I can get better ones in the sunlight.  They are on pasture all day and we give them 2-3 square bales of quality hay (I believe it's timothy/alfalfa/white clover mix, but I could be wrong) as well as 2 5 gal bucket fulls of grain at night.
> 
> *You have to know that with Body Condition Scoring your heifers, looks are not everything.  The best sure way to tell that #1 and #3 thinner than the BCS of 3.5 (out of a score of 1 to 5, 1 being the most emaciated) #2 is in (which is the OPTIMUM your heifers should be in), is to run your hands over the ribs, spine, pins and hooks and tail head and reall see if #1 is thin or not.  Touch really is more reliable than eyesight alone.  #1 looks to have a BCS of 2.75 to 3; #3 has a BCS of 3 to 3.25.  I have a page on cow BCS you can look at to see and compare, and use to BCS your heifers.
> 
> I say you did take the pictures in the right conditions, as the best picture you can get to show other folks the body condition of your animals is in the same conditions you took your heifer's pictures in.  You could try taking them when it's sunny out (DO NOT take pictures into the sun!!!), just to see whether they look the same or different in different lighting or not.*
> 
> What else should we feed them?
> 
> It's really odd that you say #1 isn't bred or will have a small calf - #1 has developed the biggest udder so far and looks the biggest in person, #2's udder is coming along and #3 looks as though she may be coming into milk, but we can't see too much of a difference right now.


Now that you mention it, her underline looks to be about the same as the other two, not thinner.  From the posterior picture of her (looking at her rear-end), her left side (which is where her rumen is) seems to bulge out just as much, maybe a little more than the other 2. #2's rear pic is misleading: perhaps you can try to take a picture of her rear further away. Her right side seems to bulge out more than her left; either it could be the way she is standing or the distance that the camera's away from her vulva.  

Heifers ALWAYS will be tricking you into believing that they're going to calve soon.  I did mention before that looking at the udder doesn't do much justice.  Amy explained that, but I will mention it again: heifers almost always will either bag up really early, or bag up right at the last minute.  With experienced cows though, it's not as unpredictable.  The other thing I noticed with #1 is that she hasn't "dropped down" like she's ready to calve.  Her vulva is loose and floppy, but it may remain like that for a little while yet.  It's going to be really tough to see who calves first! #3 could go first, but it may be #2, then #1, but who knows?? 



> It could very well be our minds playing tricks, though, because #2 (with the horns) is who we thought was on the bottom.  After watching them for 2 yrs we'd always see #1 and #3 eating comfortably, all the while pushing #2 out of the area, so that's when we started spreading the feed out.


LOL I think it's pretty obvious why!  It's called compensation.  When cattle are lacking in a certain nutrient or are thinner than they should be, they will eat more to compensate for that loss.  #1 and #3 are thinner than #2 and because of that they are both trying to compensate for the fact that they are thin, and possibly because they have a growing calf in them (now it's more than likely) that is bringing them down in terms of condition, they are eating more and competing for more food than #2 is.  #2 is at the weight where she is in good condition, and will need to eat less than #1 and #3.  This is why she pulls out sooner than the other two. So either #1 has a really needy calf in her, or she's one of those heifers that are hard keepers, unlike #2. 

Be careful about feeding them too much, like Amy said.  You will not only get liver problems or acidosis, but they may bloat as well.  Even though it's hard to judge the weight of these heifers from the pictures (they look to be over 1000 lbs; I'm guessing around 1200 lbs each, more or less), they should only be getting around 3/4 to 2/3 of a 5 gal. pail each.  When we were fattening up a 1100 to 1200 lb steer to slaughter, he would only get like 20 to 25 lbs of grain per day (which was only a 1/2 a 5 gal. pail of chopped barley once a day). I assume that your heifers need about that much, which is a bit less than what you're feeding them already.  Right now I believe you are giving them 3 1/3 gal. each, which is about 2/3 of a pail each.  That's a little too much. If I were you, I'd either give the thinner heifers 1/2 a pail each and 1/3 a pail to #2, or cut your grain down to only 1 x 5 gal. of grain per night, and just let them get fat on hay and pasture.


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## glenolam

In a previous post it was mentioned that as they get closer to calving their tail head sinks between the pin bones (or so I recall).  How would you be able to tell the difference between that happening and the cows just being skinny?

My better half mentioned that the "bump" I asked about (which I learned is the umbilicus) will almost pop out as the calf drops down/gets bigger.  Is that true?

Thanks again for all the help and support!


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## amysflock

glenolam said:
			
		

> In a previous post it was mentioned that as they get closer to calving their tail head sinks between the pin bones (or so I recall).  How would you be able to tell the difference between that happening and the cows just being skinny?
> 
> My better half mentioned that the "bump" I asked about (which I learned is the umbilicus) will almost pop out as the calf drops down/gets bigger.  Is that true?
> 
> Thanks again for all the help and support!


There's a looseness that goes along with that. I imagine that skinny would feel sort of taught in the space between the pins and the tailhead when you press down there, even if the pins appear to have sunken. When the pins loosen pre-calving, it feels softer, more relaxed, because the ligaments actually relax to make way for the calf to pass through the birth canal.

On heifers, even that sign can fool you. Our younger cow loosened in her pins (2nd calf) earlier this year than last...and stayed that way awhile.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

The thing you can usually watch for in udders in individual cows/heifers is the sudden bagging up/tightness.  You should be able to tell when they really bag up, even if they'd had a large udder for a while.  

And watch for them to hold their tail out from their hind end a bit as everything relaxes.


----------



## amysflock

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> The thing you can usually watch for in udders in individual cows/heifers is the sudden bagging up/tightness.  You should be able to tell when they really bag up, even if they'd had a large udder for a while.


That's a good point. When I mentioned in a previous post that I checked Bridgit twice daily starting in October 2008 (and she didn't calve until Dec 2, 2008, I was doing 3 things:

*A visual look from the rear to see how her sides look (calf dropping, more to one side, etc...slab-sided look is an indication the calf has dropped into position to enter the birth canal)

*Feeling her bag and teats - firmer? bigger? teats soft or firm?

*Feeling her pins - soft and flexible, or still firm?

I did the same with our other pregnant cow. I also did this same thing this year (both delivered bull calves in April). HOWEVER, checking daily causes one to lose perspective. My DH was better b/c he didn't check daily (maybe 2-3 times per week), so when there was a change, it was pretty drastic to him. Me, not so much.

What finally gave it away this year with both was behavior changes immediately before calving. I checked both the a.m. they calved and wondered, "Hmm, is today the day?" By evening, when we were home, we saw pacing, head shaking at the other animals (a cow and a yearling heifer), getting up and down repeatedly. This went on about an hour each. Then laying down, rolling onto side (head on the ground), then back up. This was contractions/pushing. Then, finally, obvious straining/pushing. I'd have to look back at emails/blog posts, but I'd say Sheila labored hard for 40 minutes (3rd calf), and Bridgit only 20 (2nd calf). We were outside within 5-10 minutes to navel dip, weigh, etc. for both.

BUT...through none of this were we guessing whether they were bred. We had both pregnancy checked within 3 months of the bull leaving our property. Vet palpitation isn't exact, but they know whether they feel a calf in there, and whether it's cat-sized, dog-sized, etc. Your best bet is still to have a vet out.


----------



## glenolam

OK - no updated pics because it's been raining off and on for the past few days (to continue for the next 3  ) and of course it rains when we're home, not at work...

You are correct that #2 is in better condition than 1 and 3.  When I ran my hands over their ribs, #2 had a bit more padding than the other two.  #1's pins, however, are soft and flexible, not firm, and I have noticed that the area between the pins and her tail head was very pronounced and sunken yesterday - I guess I can compare it to when my goat doe was about to give birth.  Her ligs were completely soft and I almost put my hand around her tail.  I can't really do that with the cow, but I'm trying to give you an idea...

Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.

I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.

We've cut their grain down to 1 5 gal bucket among the three of them and are giving them an extra bale of hay - they wasted it, though, which to me would suggest they were full???  Hopefully they'll mosey on over to it today once they're done with what I gave them for breakfast and gobble it up before it rains - AGAIN.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.
> 
> I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.


You want to make sure you're going off the right BSC.  Beef cows use the BCS of 1-9.  A BCS of 5-6 is optimum for cows at calving, and first calf heifers should be at 6.  I'd say #1 is between 3-4, #2 is a 4, #3 is almost a 5.  

Here's  an informative explanation of BCS with pictures.


----------



## herfrds

Ok i have to share this pic. This is one of my cows, Whitey. I named her that because the white on her neck goes clear to the middle of her back.
She is a 4 frame cow. Has what I believe to be the best udder in the herd and a mothering instinct to die for and wish all your cows to have.
She lost her first calf last spring and just laid in the barn not interested in eating or even leaving. Got her an orphan calf and she took to it right away. Was hilarious to watch her chasing that calf everywhere.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

I'd say Whitey is more like a 6.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

glenolam said:
			
		

> OK - no updated pics because it's been raining off and on for the past few days (to continue for the next 3  ) and of course it rains when we're home, not at work...
> 
> You are correct that #2 is in better condition than 1 and 3.  When I ran my hands over their ribs, #2 had a bit more padding than the other two.  #1's pins, however, are soft and flexible, not firm, and I have noticed that the area between the pins and her tail head was very pronounced and sunken yesterday - I guess I can compare it to when my goat doe was about to give birth.  Her ligs were completely soft and I almost put my hand around her tail.  I can't really do that with the cow, but I'm trying to give you an idea...
> 
> Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.
> 
> *I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?*  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.
> 
> We've cut their grain down to 1 5 gal bucket among the three of them and are giving them an extra bale of hay - they wasted it, though, which to me would suggest they were full???  Hopefully they'll mosey on over to it today once they're done with what I gave them for breakfast and gobble it up before it rains - AGAIN.


For _cows_, a BCS of 3 (in the American score of 1 to 9, this would be between 5 and 6) is optimum.  For *heifers*, though, this is not, and they should be between 3.5 and 4 to be deemed as optimum (as #2 is). 

I see that I was correct in my scoring from just looking at the pictures.   I didn't even look at the pictures in my BCS of Cows page to see if I was close or not, I just used my intellect.   I agree that #1 is not nearly as thin as a BCS of 2 would be, that's why I pinned her at a 2.75 instead.  #2 I agree with your score, and #3 does certainly look to be right on the BCS 3 mark.  You're right on the money.

As for the hay, you may want to invest in a bale feeder to minimize waste.  But if they still have enough pasture, it's best to keep feeding them the 2 to 3 bales a day instead of popping it up to 3 or 4.  Only if they run out of pasture it might be best to feed extra.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> glenolam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.
> 
> I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> You want to make sure you're going off the right BSC.  Beef cows use the BCS of 1-9.  A BCS of 5-6 is optimum for cows at calving, and first calf heifers should be at 6.  I'd say #1 is between 3-4, #2 is a 4, #3 is almost a 5.
> 
> Here's  an informative explanation of BCS with pictures.
Click to expand...

Katie, it doesn't matter what kind of score you use, be it for beef _or_ dairy cows.  The Canadian Body Condition Scoring is 1 to 5, and the American Body Condition Scoring is 1 to 9.  What kind of score you use depends on the person using it.  I prefer to use the BCS of 1 to 5 just because I do.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> glenolam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.
> 
> I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> You want to make sure you're going off the right BSC.  Beef cows use the BCS of 1-9.  A BCS of 5-6 is optimum for cows at calving, and first calf heifers should be at 6.  I'd say #1 is between 3-4, #2 is a 4, #3 is almost a 5.
> 
> Here's  an informative explanation of BCS with pictures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Katie, it doesn't matter what kind of score you use, be it for beef _or_ dairy cows.  The Canadian Body Condition Scoring is 1 to 5, and the American Body Condition Scoring is 1 to 9.  What kind of score you use depends on the person using it.  I prefer to use the BCS of 1 to 5 just because I do.
Click to expand...

Well, here in the US we use 1-9 for beef and 1-5 for dairy.  It gets confusing if you're talking a scale of 1-5 for beef because it definitely changes from the two scales.    As long as you're being consistent, I don't think it matters for you (general "you") personally, but if you're talking to other people, they could get confused.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

herfrds said:
			
		

> Ok i have to share this pic. This is one of my cows, Whitey. I named her that because the white on her neck goes clear to the middle of her back.
> She is a 4 frame cow. Has what I believe to be the best udder in the herd and a mothering instinct to die for and wish all your cows to have.
> She lost her first calf last spring and just laid in the barn not interested in eating or even leaving. Got her an orphan calf and she took to it right away. Was hilarious to watch her chasing that calf everywhere.


She's a nice lookin' girl!  She definately looks to be a Frame 4 (AND she hits the mark at what she looks to be a BCS of 4 [for you katie, that's the American BCS of 6, no  necessary; I have the calculations from American BCS to Canadian BCS on my page if you wish to look at them]) 

And for those of you not familiar with the difference between Frame score and Body Condition score, I'll give you a brief explanation:  Frame scores tend to measure height and girth and the skeletal frame of an animal rather than the amount of fat on its body. Body Condition Scoring, on the other hand, is a measure of the amount of fat that is on an animal's body.  Check out this link for more on Frame score.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> herfrds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok i have to share this pic. This is one of my cows, Whitey. I named her that because the white on her neck goes clear to the middle of her back.
> She is a 4 frame cow. Has what I believe to be the best udder in the herd and a mothering instinct to die for and wish all your cows to have.
> She lost her first calf last spring and just laid in the barn not interested in eating or even leaving. Got her an orphan calf and she took to it right away. Was hilarious to watch her chasing that calf everywhere.
> 
> http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z79/Elimrvfc/Cattle/footings026.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> She's a nice lookin' girl!  She definately looks to be a Frame 4 (AND she hits the mark at what she looks to be a BCS of 4 [for you katie, that's the American BCS of 6, no  necessary; I have the calculations from American BCS to Canadian BCS on my page if you wish to look at them])
> 
> And for those of you not familiar with the difference between Frame score and Body Condition score, I'll give you a brief explanation:  Frame scores tend to measure height and girth and the skeletal frame of an animal rather than the amount of fat on its body. Body Condition Scoring, on the other hand, is a measure of the amount of fat that is on an animal's body.  Check out this link for more on Frame score.
Click to expand...

I thought herfrds meant BC since that's what we were talking about, and just said frame instead.    And the   wasn't really meant to be a guess, but more like "no big deal" so she knew I wasn't being mean or something.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> glenolam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.
> 
> I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> You want to make sure you're going off the right BSC.  Beef cows use the BCS of 1-9.  A BCS of 5-6 is optimum for cows at calving, and first calf heifers should be at 6.  I'd say #1 is between 3-4, #2 is a 4, #3 is almost a 5.
> 
> Here's  an informative explanation of BCS with pictures.
Click to expand...

Lets go with the calculation of my BCS score (Canadian) to the conversion of your BCS score (American).  Since I pinned #1 at a 2.5 to 2.75, #2 at a 3.5 (now to a 4), and #3 a 3 to 3.25 here's the calculations:

Am. BCS = (Cdn BCS -1)2
For #1: (2.5 - 1)2 = 3 or (2.75 -1)2 = 3.5
For #2: (3.5 - 1)2 = 5 or (4-1)2 = 6
For #3: (3 - 1)2 = 4 or (3.25 - 1)2 = 4.5

I hope you meant that it was #2 that is almost a 5, not #3.  

Check out the pictures of Angus cows on the Body Condition Scoring of Beef Cattle for comparisons.  Glenolam, this link with pictures might help you even more than the pics of them dairy cows in my page.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> herfrds said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok i have to share this pic. This is one of my cows, Whitey. I named her that because the white on her neck goes clear to the middle of her back.
> She is a 4 frame cow. Has what I believe to be the best udder in the herd and a mothering instinct to die for and wish all your cows to have.
> She lost her first calf last spring and just laid in the barn not interested in eating or even leaving. Got her an orphan calf and she took to it right away. Was hilarious to watch her chasing that calf everywhere.
> 
> http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z79/Elimrvfc/Cattle/footings026.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> She's a nice lookin' girl!  She definately looks to be a Frame 4 (AND she hits the mark at what she looks to be a BCS of 4 [for you katie, that's the American BCS of 6, no  necessary; I have the calculations from American BCS to Canadian BCS on my page if you wish to look at them])
> 
> And for those of you not familiar with the difference between Frame score and Body Condition score, I'll give you a brief explanation:  Frame scores tend to measure height and girth and the skeletal frame of an animal rather than the amount of fat on its body. Body Condition Scoring, on the other hand, is a measure of the amount of fat that is on an animal's body.  Check out this link for more on Frame score.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought herfrds meant BC since that's what we were talking about, and just said frame instead.    And the   wasn't really meant to be a guess, but more like "no big deal" so she knew I wasn't being mean or something.
Click to expand...

LOL alrighty.


----------



## glenolam

First, I'd like to say...... 

I just want healthy happy cows and calfs....



			
				WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> As for the hay, you may want to invest in a bale feeder to minimize waste.  But if they still have enough pasture, it's best to keep feeding them the 2 to 3 bales a day instead of popping it up to 3 or 4.  Only if they run out of pasture it might be best to feed extra.


We did have a feeder, but we ended up selling it because the cows avoided the hay.  They do have enough pasture (and are about to enjoy another 4 acres once we're done with the fencing) so the hay is supplemental at this point.  But since I was concerned with the comments that two are too skinny I figured we should up the hay for now.

I looked at the beef cow BCS and I believe that #1 would fall between 4 and 5, #2 - 5.5 and #3 - 5.  As I mentioned, #1's spine and vertebrae are not visible, but she does have more definition in her hip bones/tail head than the other two.

herfrds - Is Whitey's udder full at that point?


----------



## aggieterpkatie

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> glenolam said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having never done BCS before in my life, I guesstimate that #1 is a 2.5 - 3, #2 is 3.5 - 4 and #3 is 3.  #1 has a bit of padding over/between the ribs, you can feel/see them, but they're not pronounced.  And her spine is no where near as pronounced as the cow in the BCS 2's picture.  You can't see her vertebrae at all and her ribs are not noticeable from a top-line view (as the cow in the BSC 2 pic looked from the rear/top).  Not much I can say about the other two - they seem to fall within the BCS 3 and 4 categories easily.
> 
> I read the page on BCS scores and I thought it said that a score of 3 is best for calving?  Not that I disagree with the idea that #1 and #3 need some fattening up (especially if/once they have a calf nursing at their side), but I got worried that #1 especially was in dire straights and would abort or die during labor because of the suggestions made the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> You want to make sure you're going off the right BSC.  Beef cows use the BCS of 1-9.  A BCS of 5-6 is optimum for cows at calving, and first calf heifers should be at 6.  I'd say #1 is between 3-4, #2 is a 4, #3 is almost a 5.
> 
> Here's  an informative explanation of BCS with pictures.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Lets go with the calculation of my BCS score (Canadian) to the conversion of your BCS score (American).  Since I pinned #1 at a 2.5 to 2.75, #2 at a 3.5 (now to a 4), and #3 a 3 to 3.25 here's the calculations:
> 
> Am. BCS = (Cdn BCS -1)2
> For #1: (2.5 - 1)2 = 3 or (2.75 -1)2 = 3.5
> For #2: (3.5 - 1)2 = 5 or (4-1)2 = 6
> For #3: (3 - 1)2 = 4 or (3.25 - 1)2 = 4.5
> 
> I hope you meant that it was #2 that is almost a 5, not #3.
> 
> Check out the pictures of Angus cows on the Body Condition Scoring of Beef Cattle for comparisons.  Glenolam, this link with pictures might help you even more than the pics of them dairy cows in my page.
Click to expand...

Yes, I did! I just got the number mixed up.  

See, I think it's helpful to have a different scale for dairy than for beef, because there's no way you can compare them.  A dairy animal should not look like a beefer, and vice versa.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

glenolam said:
			
		

> First, I'd like to say......
> 
> I just want healthy happy cows and calfs....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WildRoseBeef said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the hay, you may want to invest in a bale feeder to minimize waste.  But if they still have enough pasture, it's best to keep feeding them the 2 to 3 bales a day instead of popping it up to 3 or 4.  Only if they run out of pasture it might be best to feed extra.
> 
> 
> 
> We did have a feeder, but we ended up selling it because the cows avoided the hay.  They do have enough pasture (and are about to enjoy another 4 acres once we're done with the fencing) so the hay is supplemental at this point.  But since I was concerned with the comments that two are too skinny I figured we should up the hay for now.
> 
> I looked at the beef cow BCS and I believe that #1 would fall between 4 and 5, #2 - 5.5 and #3 - 5.  As I mentioned, #1's spine and vertebrae are not visible, but she does have more definition in her hip bones/tail head than the other two.
> 
> herfrds - Is Whitey's udder full at that point?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for all the confusion.  I was just mentioning the bale thing because of the waste you mentioned that was involved.  I think they were full at that point, and the reason why I said to lighten up on the hay was because the grass itself is, IMHO, great to get them fat on.  I realize that they hay is supplementary, but there's no need to rely on it too much, especially when you have pasture now and good quality pasture to last you for another while yet.  

I'll tell you a little something about the cattle we raised here.  Even though we were raising steers and not heifers, getting them up to adequate weight was important.  During the winter we fed them hay and silage; before we found out about silage, they got 6 to 8 pails of grain once a day (we had around 80 to 90 head at the time).  When it was summer time and the grasses were tall enough to start them grazing on, we stopped feeding them hay and had them on grass instead, still keeping up with the 8 pails (5 gal. pails) once or twice a day.  Those steers grew nice and fat on just grass with supplement of grain.  Plus we had over 100 acres of pasture to utilize with that many head.

Now, don't take that as saying that you should stop feeding the heifers hay cold-turkey and keep them on pasture, becuase I know very well you do not have nearly that amount of pasture at your disposal that the farm I live on has.  What you are doing to feed them and to get them up to weight is good.  But, each and every one of us cattlefolk have our own ways of running things, and different opinions on how to get heifers like yours up to weight before calving.  

Now, *IF* (keyword here) you find that the heifers are not gaining more on the increased hay and decreased grain plus pasture, you might probably find it best to increase the grain and decrease the hay.  Not saying that you should do that now, I'm saying IF you find that your heifers are gaining weight less or remaining the same over a period of, say, one month.   Do what you're doing now, don't change anything, but observe how they're weight is doing as you do it, week by week, month by month.

Oh, and don't get confuddled by our BCS schinanigans.  How we do our BCS is just a great way to encourage discussion.


----------



## WildRoseBeef

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> WildRoseBeef said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aggieterpkatie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You want to make sure you're going off the right BSC.  Beef cows use the BCS of 1-9.  A BCS of 5-6 is optimum for cows at calving, and first calf heifers should be at 6.  I'd say #1 is between 3-4, #2 is a 4, #3 is almost a 5.
> 
> Here's  an informative explanation of BCS with pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> Lets go with the calculation of my BCS score (Canadian) to the conversion of your BCS score (American).  Since I pinned #1 at a 2.5 to 2.75, #2 at a 3.5 (now to a 4), and #3 a 3 to 3.25 here's the calculations:
> 
> Am. BCS = (Cdn BCS -1)2
> For #1: (2.5 - 1)2 = 3 or (2.75 -1)2 = 3.5
> For #2: (3.5 - 1)2 = 5 or (4-1)2 = 6
> For #3: (3 - 1)2 = 4 or (3.25 - 1)2 = 4.5
> 
> I hope you meant that it was #2 that is almost a 5, not #3.
> 
> Check out the pictures of Angus cows on the Body Condition Scoring of Beef Cattle for comparisons.  Glenolam, this link with pictures might help you even more than the pics of them dairy cows in my page.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, I did! I just got the number mixed up.
> 
> See, I think it's helpful to have a different scale for dairy than for beef, because there's no way you can compare them.  A dairy animal should not look like a beefer, and vice versa.
Click to expand...

Yes I can see it does get confusing.  But, to each his/her own.


----------



## amysflock

To the original poster, I don't think the worry is whether your heifer woulc die during labor/birth. The worry is the rapid decline you may (probably) see once she delivers and starts nursing her calf. Lactation is the hardest time on a female's body, and starting with an under-conditioned body means less of her food intake goes toward maintaining (or improving) her condition.

A heifer is still growing/developing, so the better condition she is in prior to calving, the better she will continue to grow and develop. Otherwise, she may be stunted and never reach her full potential.

To Whitey's owner - GORGEOUS! One of our cows, Sheila, is very framey (although unmeasured), and throws nice, large framed offspring. It's an asset!


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## glenolam

I know to each his own and that that scoring is purely subjective...comprehending all the info at once is what gets me spinning.

After looking at a few of the beef heifer calving photos against BCS (side note - I googled hereford heifer calving and the 1st google response was this thread  ) I know we need to get their condition up and I think the best way to do so is to keep the supplemental hay where it is (or maybe I'll try an extra bale again today and see if they still waste it just to be sure they were full yesterday) and give them a 5 gal pail of grain among them all, but I'll make sure #1 and #3 are getting a good ration of it (but not all or most).  I'll increase/decrease based on any changes that occur.

I guess I'm also getting overwhelmed because I seem to be the only one concerned at my house....but I'm also new to this cow thing and have never seen or dealt with it in my life!  My husband and his family (even the guy that bred our cows) all think that, yes, we need to fatten them up some, but they're not overly concerned and think it'll all turn out fine.

Now watch - I'll go home to three calves on the ground... 

Is this anything like goats where the probability of them calving is highest when the barometric pressure drops?


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## amysflock

Glenolam, I can totally relate. I'm the only one (of the two of us) at my house who worries about this stuff, too. DH has been known to throw 2 bales of hay into the ring feeder and think that's enough for 2 days for 2 lactating cows, a large dry cow, and 2 calves! It makes me crazy.

It is very possible that adding more hay will just result in more waste. Hay isn't the fastest way to add calories...and I think they know it. 

You might consider alfalfa as an option (dry). We did evening buckets (1 bucket apiece) of soaked beet pulp, plus alfalfa pellets and some grain, for Bridgit and Sheila (our first two cows) in 2008 before and after they calvedIt's a little time consuming, didn't solve Bridgit's weight problems, caused Sheila to get a bit bossy and demanding ("where the H*LL is my evening bucket, woman?!"), and is not something we do anymore.

After even the 16% dairy grain ration did nothing for Bridgit's weight during lactation other than cause her to further fatten her heifer calf, we switched to rolled corn. I think we mixed a little bit (less than a pound) of grain in because it had molasses in it and the rolled corn wasn't very tasty.

I did notice our dog seemed to like the rolled corn...we fed Bridgit (and thusly her heifer calf, who always came with) in our backyard to keep Sheila away, and Bridgit would forever spill rolled corn bits out of her mouth between bites. Honey the Foxhound cleaned them up, lickety split!


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## glenolam

amysflock said:
			
		

> "where the H*LL is my evening bucket, woman?!"


Ummmm, have you been spying on me and my animals? 

It's the same with the goats - as soon as I step out of the car the darn things start yelling "MAAAAAAAAA -  We're fricken starving here!"  All the while I hear "MOOOOAAAAA.........!" from the cows.... sigh....



> After even the 16% dairy grain ration did nothing for Bridgit's weight during lactation other than cause her to further fatten her heifer calf, we switched to rolled corn. I think we mixed a little bit (less than a pound) of grain in because it had molasses in it and the rolled corn wasn't very tasty.


That's funny because my husband has to stop at the feed store on the way home and I just texted him the list of what to get - I said sweet feed mix and rolled corn!  Guess I might know _something_!


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## herfrds

Thanks for the comments. She is my favorite.
Her bag is not as full as it was a month ago. Her calf is off now grazing more by herself, but will come back to mom when she wants milk. Named her Spot because of the white spot right in the middle of her back.

We have a couple of cows that are around a score frame of 6. I stand 5'4" in my boots and I can't look over their backs. Too big. we are trying to get it more uniform in the herd with a 4 to 5 frame.

glenolam one thing to know is those heifers will lose body condition after they calve and start nursing the calves. It won't matter how much feed you pour into them they will put it into their milk for the calves.
Ours always look terrible about a week or so after calving. Once they are out on green grass and the milk production to the calf levels off they start putting on the weight again.
We wean at 6 months of age. It gives the cow some time before winter hits to get dry and start putting back on some more weight.
One thing we learned during a drought was to start the calves on feed about a month before weaning. I will take out a bale of hay and get the herd to come up to it. The cows teach the calves to eat the hay. They get a bale every 3 days.
Less bawling by the calf.
we learned that when the pasture had no grass and we had to start feeding in August.


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## glenolam

Well - I "won the bet"!

#1 calved early this morning and #2 followed at 10:30 am!  We have a bull (from #1) and a heifer (#2).  Poor ol' #3 just walks around wondering where her friends are....

I have a question so I'll start another thread, but wanted to update this first.  I'll post pics as soon as I get the chance (because I took about a gazillion already!)


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> Well - I "won the bet"!
> 
> #1 calved early this morning and #3 followed at 10:30 am!  We have a bull (from #1) and a heifer (#3).  Poor ol' #2 just walks around wondering where her friends are....
> 
> I have a question so I'll start another thread, but wanted to update this first.  I'll post pics as soon as I get the chance (because I took about a gazillion already!)


Congrats!  I definitely wouldn't have guessed they'd go this early by those pics you posted. They didn't look that big!


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## amysflock

Oh, wow, congrats! I wouldn't have guessed they were as close, either! Can't wait to see pics!


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## herfrds

So COOL!!!!

I love pictures of baby calves. I can hardly wait.


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## glenolam

I knew the pics I was showing you really weren't the best.  I was taking in all the info you all were giving me and it just didn't seem to fit our girls!

None the less, here's our _beautiful_ calves - first is the bull from heifer #1:











Here is the heifer from heifer #2 (who's the one having nursing issues right now):











By the way - *What are the odds both calved on the same day - 4ish hours apart!!!*


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## aggieterpkatie

Beautiful calves!  Glad #2 finally came around!


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## WildRoseBeef

glenolam said:
			
		

> I knew the pics I was showing you really weren't the best.  I was taking in all the info you all were giving me and it just didn't seem to fit our girls!
> 
> None the less, here's our _beautiful_ calves - first is the bull from heifer #1:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the heifer from heifer #*2* (who's the one having nursing issues right now): _I think you meant #2, from the pictures I looked at on page 3 or 4 of this thread. _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way - *What are the odds both calved on the same day - 4ish hours apart!!!*


Congratulations!  They all look like nice calves.  #3 I'm sure will soon follow soon enough.


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## glenolam

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!  The two moms are looking well so far.  We've brought fresh water to them as well as their food (heaven forbid they have to walk to their food at a time like this!  ) - usually they just head to the stream for water, but we don't want them to go too far from their calves just yet - and also don't want the calves to wonder to the stream and topple over.  They sure are wobbly on those new legs!



			
				WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> _I think you meant #2, from the pictures I looked at on page 3 or 4 of this thread. _They all look like nice calves.  #3 I'm sure will soon follow soon enough.


You are very correct - for some reason in my mind I thought I put the "questionable" one 2nd.  I'm going back to correct myself now


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## glenolam

Update - both calves are doing very well.  Both moms are (now!) doing a great job and the calves have names....

Bob and Sandy (our son named them after Spongebob  )

Bob's mom is forever cleaning him off any time he falls down, poops, pees, stands, sits, breathes......  She's really taken to this mom thing!

Sandy's mom has finally come around and is doing a great job as well.

Both Bob and Sandy have now met - Bob was born on the side of our yard (the two cow pastures - one in the front of our house and one behind - are connected by a stretch of woods) and Sandy was born in the barn, so they never knew eachother existed until last night.

Bob and his mom made their way up to the front pasture all by themselves and we pushed Bob further into the pasture - he had found a big ol rock to sleep next to and was quite content there so we - and his mom! - had to coax him into the field.  Bob and Sandy took turns frog jumping in the field, nursing from their mothers - all 3 of our cows were nice to the calves, no one got possessive or jealous!

This morning as I left for work both Bob and Sandy were sleeping next to eachother in the barn, with their moms very close by and our 3rd cow (#3) right along side....wondering what the heck....


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## glenolam

Well, for those of you who may have been wondering - #3, the questionable one, is definitely bred!  She started bagging up about a week or two ago, and has now started springing.  I've been watching her closely for a few days and saw the calf rolling around about two days ago.  She's been stretching out (I assume to help the calf turn and prepare for calving) and the area around her tail head has sunken in, just as the other two heifers did.

Another good thing, the condition of the three heifers is improving.  You cannot see ribs or backbone on anyone - and we're chalking that up to some really good hay and a lot of it.  Yes, they have browse, but we've been putting out large round bales that were freshly cut so we don't have to throw square bales out every day.  The calves are getting interested in the hay (can you believe they're 4 weeks old!)...they love playing in it and Bob has started chomping away at bits and pieces of it.

We're juuuuuuuuuussst about done with that darn fencing in the front field.  Took a bit longer than we expected, but when it's just the two of us and we only have weekends....in the woods....with poison ivy....and barbed wire....I get a little squeamish.  Thankfully all that's left is field fencing down the road and driveway.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I do really appreciate all the help and feedback I've gotten here.  It's really helped me understand this whole process and make sure my gals are the best they can be.

I'll be sure to get pics of everyone as soon as I can - especially if #3 calves sometime soon!


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## herfrds

Glad to hear that you are batting a 100%.

With our 60 head we average 1-3 open a year. (not bred)


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## WildRoseBeef

Great to hear!! 100% bred rate is a heck of a lot better than a 66% rate, for a herd of three (now 5).

Can't wait to see the pictures.


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## glenolam

#3 calved late last night.  Yesterday she dropped all her milk, filled up her teats and started with some amber discharge so we knew it was coming.  About 4 pm everyone else was grazing and I didn't see her, so I figured it was time.  I found her by herself in the woods having mild contractions.  We left her alone and waited about 1/2 hr then checked again and saw that she was trying to break her water.  She never looked to be in full labor, never broke the water - just had some contractions and light pushing.  She kept eating and drinking as normal, too, which gave us both comfort and discomfort as it meant she felt good, but also meant she wasn't interested in having this calf.  At 7 pm she had the water sack sticking out her rear and when we took a closer look we saw a hoof in the sack.  We kept looking at the hoof and looking at the hoof and my husband said "Well, that doesn't look right at all".  

It was 1 hoof, upside down and we couldnt tell if it was a front or rear hoof.  So we corralled her into a makeshift pen in the back yard.  We knew we were going to have to tie her up and the barn doesn't have enough support to withstand her, not to mention lighting was much easier in the backyard (well, not our backyard, but our yard abuts the cowfield).  We called our friend, the guy who's bull we used and he came over about 9.  We got her haltered up to a tree, backyard farmer style, and he cleaned up and went in.  He was able to get the 2nd hoof through and felt the nose, but couldn't tell if the head was bent backwards or forwards.  He was guesstimating it wasn't good - that he pulled two back legs out, then felt the snout because the calf's head was bent backwards.

Needless to say we figured it was going to be still born or die in the birthing process.  He was very gentle and nice with her, but said that honestly he wasn't comfortable completing the birth and recommended we call the vet.  We called at 10 pm and the vet showed up at 11:15 - what's really sad is that he had to come from 45 min away when anther vet in the same group is located just down the road from us, but wasn't the on-call vet, the guy farther away was.  

He hooked up calf chains to the hooves and luckily by this point the cow seemed to be going into hard labor - either that or she was feeling the pressure from the calf being pulled out and decided to help us out for once.  After about 5 minutes (no joke!) the calf fell to the ground.  Again, we prepared for a still born but to all our amazement the calf let out this huge grunt, picked it's head up and shook snot all over the place!

It's a little bull and somehow he made it through the process.  Now the bad part is the cow has barely sniffed him so far, even 12 hours later, so I went on a late night ride, got colostrum from a nearby farm and gave it to him about 2 am - it was just under a quart but enough to last him until morning.  This morning we went to another farm and got 2 quarts and gave it to him as well because the cow barely even noticed him.  We've put some of that O-NO-MO on him hoping it'll help and left them alone for the day.  We're hoping it'll be like the 2nd cow who finally accepted the heifer after a few hours.  This little bull is very eager to eat and is up walking around.  

We are completely amazed - something worked in our favor last night, that's for sure!  Pics to come soon!


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## herfrds

Sounds like a tough time for you. Glad the calf survived.
When calving season hits here you are lucky to reach either one of our 2 local vets.

Sometimes a heifer that you have to do a hard pull on will not accept the calf right away. Now if you had a headcatch I would tell you to put her in it and get the calf latched on to nurse.

Now since you didn't know this I will tell you. The calf needed the colostrum sooner then 12 hours. The sooner you get the colostrum in the calf the better. Now after 24 hours it really doesn't do anything.

Just keep an eye on her. If she is not accepting the calf in the next couple of days then you have a couple of options. Milk her out and feed the calf.
Now if you milk out the colostrum put it in small bags and freeze it in about 1 pint amounts.
You can keep the calf as a bottle calf and raise it.
If she never accepts the calf either butcher her or sell her.


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## glenolam

I know the importance of getting colostrum into him sooner than 12 hours - we were able to get a quart in him after an hour (the "about 2 am feeding, which was more like 1:30 am when he was born about 12:15 am), then 2 more quarts when he was 7 hours old (7:15 - 7:30 am the same day he was born).  I know that's not optimum and everything says "a gallon within the first hour" or something to that affect, but we did what we could.  We then got another 2 qts into him at 16 hours old.  

The vet was a great help in finding us colostrum at that ungodly hour, too, and drilled it into us what we should/shouldn't do, how we should raise our cows, what we should invest in, what we're doing wrong, etc.  Yes, I should have been more prepared but I wasn't.  It was pretty stressful for us once we determined we were going to have a late night calving since I knew if she didn't accept him I'd have a hard time finding replacement colostrum.  Part of the difference between us and other "farms" is that we're a simple hobby farm, not a beef farm or cattle operation, so we do with what we have.  Even though it's probably too late, we've decided if it doesn't seem as though he's nursing we'll tie her back up and I'll milk her out this afternoon.  We still haven't seen him nurse, but her teats aren't full and shiny so it's hard for me to determine if he's nursing when we're not around or not.

On the flip side, he is a very spunkly calf who seems to enjoy hopping around like a frog and running around in circles.


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## jhm47

If you tie her up, let the calf suck on his own.  Don't try to milk her out.  You likely will be kicked.  I'd guess that if the calf is spunky and bucking around, that he's been sucking on his own.  The ones that aren't sucking don't have the energy to play around.  Good luck!


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## herfrds

To your vet for critizing you.

You guys are doing alright. Glad to hear you got that much colostrum in him.
If you think he is nursing that is great. Just watch and wait.
Hopefully she gets attached to the little guy and accepts him.
It does sound like he might have nursed.

Had a first year heifer try to kill her calf. Would kick the snot out of him and would butt him into the gate or the side of anything she could. Little bugger wouldn't quit though.
He became a bottle calf and she became "Do you want fries with that?"


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## glenolam

Thanks, guys!

I tried not judging the vet, because he was extremely helpful and quick; however, as soon as he arrived it was like he was astounded we didn't have her in a birthing corral at some fancy birthing center.  We told him repeatedly "This is all we have...we're just hobby farmers so we make due".  I can only imagine what was going through his head as I left him at the dairy farm I followed him to for the colostrum at 1ish am....

Oh well, that's neither here nor there - we have a healthy calf and mom seems to be OK...violated, but OK.

My thoughts were, too, that if he's that spunky he's got to be getting something.  And she's not kicking or butting him as violently as our other heifer did to her calf.  She actually seems to be nudging him to her udder, but it's a rather hard nudge and he doesn't go for the teats.

But as I said to my better half (who's now taken to calling me Farm Girl every chance he gets): her teats aren't full - they're shrivled and he's spunky...guess he's doing alright for being in the birth canal for over 6, maybe more hours.

I do have to say - I was VERY interested in sticking my own arms in there to feel the calf, but knew there's no way I was going to put her in the hands of someone who knew little about this process!


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## herfrds

Our vet never complains. Not even when we were standing in our barn I'm pushing on the heifer on one side, his daughter has the tail and hubby has us all squished by a gate. Loved what he said," If it had been an Angus we'd all been dead." 
No offense to the Angus breeders.

Sounds like he is nursing her.

Only way to learn is to take a feel. Wouldn't have hurt anything as long as you are gloved up and lubed up too.
I remember pulling my first calf. Front leg back. Called a friend who gave me the best advice, "get off of your azz and just do it." He didn't mince words.
Had another neighbor help me with my first backwards calf. Told me don't mess around once you start and go as fast and as safe as you can.
He's an Angus breeder.


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## glenolam

Yesterday afternoon we cornered her and tried to push him to her.  He kept coming to us suckling at our legs, so we'd push him to her instead of us.  That's our fault and we know it.

We tried to rope her, but lets face it - I can be tough when I need to, but my muscles only go so far and sometimes I'm of little help to the big guy.  We gave up on that idea after about 1/2 hr (no big friends available unfortunately) and then I remembered something I was told when I had our son:  If he's not latching, take forumla and put it in his mouth and on your nipple and he'll get the taste and go right for it.

So I made a little cup of cow formula (thank heavens we already have one 8wk old bucket calf so we have milk!) and let him get the taste from the cup.  Then we cornered mom again and I splashed some on her udder and teats.  He finally latched on and nursed from the same darn teat for forever, and we were able to get him to nurse from the other teats a bit.  She got that dazed and glazed look as he suckled, which made us happy.  He nursed for about 1/2 hr and she ended up being lopsided, but he was at least full....milk drunk if you will!

However.....whenever we walked away she'd kick him off and walk away.  So we stayed long enough for him to get a good drink then went on our happy way...until this morning.  Went out there again to see if he's nursing on his own and got the same response.  We'd corner her, lead him to her and now she's only letting him nurse a suckle or two, then giving him good wallops to the head.  He keeps going back though, but after a few good kicks he seems to get what she's saying.

After an hour of trying and watching and waiting I gave in and gave him 2qts of cow forumula.  We were both already late for work and I couldn't leave knowing he didn't have anything to drink.  He sucked that bottle down like it was going out of style.  He looked for more after the bottle so I pushed him to mom, but got the same freaking response 

At least he's got a little in his tummy.  He's persistant as hell, but so is she.  It's not that he's NOT trying, it's that she's NOT going to let him!  We're going to try again this afternoon and tomorrow and see what happens.  I'll supplement formula if he doesn't get any milk this afternoon because I don't want him to be too weak to even try.

When I give him the bottle, I stand as close to her as I can and hold the bottle backwards against my thigh - so he's got to put his nose against something *like* an udder (STOP LAUGHING!) and I make him work for it.  Usually I'm too ticked off to be nice at this point anyway!

Do you think we should let them both out with the herd and hope she gets the point?  Or do you think she'll abandon him for sure that way?  Should we try putting him on #1 who took to her calf w/no problems or would two boys on her be too much even though they're 5 weeks a part?  The other two cows and their calves actually stick very close to her - and all the calves sniff noses through the fence.


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## aggieterpkatie

Well, this is just my opinion going off of what you've told us so far.  I think you should just let them be and stop trying to interfere so much.  I know you mean well, but you're probably stressing mom which makes her nervous.  Can you just observe them from afar and see how they do?  Also make note of what her teats look like so you can tell if he's nursed or not.  

I'd keep them by themselves for now, but don't mess with them anymore.  At least until you KNOW for sure he's not nursing at all.


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## jhm47

Keep them in a small pen (no bigger than 12' X 12'.  Then feed the cow and have the calf suck while she eats.  When the calf is done sucking, be sure to take the feed away from the cow.  Do this for several days, and the cow will eventually give in.  Allow the calf to stay with the cow at all times, and he will work on her when he gets hungry.  If you keep them in a large pen or out in your pasture, he will not be able to keep up with her, and she will be able to avoid him.  I've had this happen several times with heifers, and it's a pain in the posterior portion of my anatomy.  It just takes time and patience, but the heifers will eventually figure it out and let the calf suck.  Another trick that I've used is to put a strange dog into the pen.  This stirs some innate protective instinct in most cows, and they will suddenly become good mamas.  Doesn't always work, but it might be worth a try in your case.


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## glenolam

Aggieterpkatie - I know you're exactly right!  It is very hard just to let them be, especially since we know how hard it was to get him into the world.  The good thing is that we have to leave them alone during the week days since we both work so at least they have that time alone.

I think we'll try moving them to the barn at the front of the house.  It's a smaller area and draft free.  We've kept them in the makeshift pen in the back field since that was the only good place with a solid tree!  Now that the calf is a few days old it'll be easier to get him up there.

Should I offer a bottle if it looks like he's not getting anything from her?  Again, I'm worried he'll get too weak to try nursing.


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## aggieterpkatie

glenolam said:
			
		

> Aggieterpkatie - I know you're exactly right!  It is very hard just to let them be, especially since we know how hard it was to get him into the world.  The good thing is that we have to leave them alone during the week days since we both work so at least they have that time alone.
> 
> I think we'll try moving them to the barn at the front of the house.  It's a smaller area and draft free.  We've kept them in the makeshift pen in the back field since that was the only good place with a solid tree!  Now that the calf is a few days old it'll be easier to get him up there.
> 
> Should I offer a bottle if it looks like he's not getting anything from her?  Again, I'm worried he'll get too weak to try nursing.


If you're going to follow jhm's advice about letting him nurse while she eats, I'd not bottle feed him.  As long as he seems perky I'd let him nurse.  Plus, babies smell different once they start on replacer instead of momma's milk.  If she is at risk of abandoning him, I wouldn't want to confuse her more.  

Good luck.


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## jhm47

Aggie is right.  If he's perky and seems to be frisky, he is getting enough.  Don't give him a supplement unless it's extremely necessary, and if it comes to that, don't give much at all, just enough to keep him going.  He needs to be hungry to keep working at the cow.  I've never seen a cow that wouldn't eventually give in, but it can take up to 2 weeks or so.  

Another thing---I noticed that you fed colostrum from a dairy.  I NEVER use anything from the dairies around here because of the danger of Johnes disease.  Johnes is passed in colostrum and milk from infected cows, and dairy cows are far more likely to be infected than beef cows.  "Mixed" colostrum from several cows is even worse.  A calf can become infected with it from just one feeding of contaminated milk.  The incubation period is very long for Johnes, and it usually takes several years for the symptoms to appear.  Meanwhile, the infected animal has been shedding the bacterium, and has infected half your herd.  This is something that you really DON'T want to introduce into your herd.  I have maintained a closed herd since 1988, only bringing in new bloodlines via AI.


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## glenolam

jhm47 said:
			
		

> Another thing---I noticed that you fed colostrum from a dairy.  I NEVER use anything from the dairies around here because of the danger of Johnes disease.


Thanks for the info!  It was what the vet told us to do so it's what we did.  I can't say specifically that the dairies around here do or don't have Johnes because I just don't know.  All I do know is that both are well-established farms - one was a dairy (that's where I got the quart from) and the other was a beef farm.  We've met both farmers on occasion (especially the beef farm b/c I drive by it every day on the way to daycare) since the hubby's grandfather used to be in beef cows "back in the day".

Just keep sending thoughts their way - it's not that I would mind a bottle calf, but we'd much rather keep him with the herd and with his mom.  Did I mention he's a splitting image of her?  I know I said I'd get pics, but it's been so hectic and crazy the only time I've had to post is at work!  I promise to get some in by the weekend!


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## herfrds

like jhm said keep them together in a small pen.
It is a tough battle ahead of you. Hopefully she will finally fully accept him.
Now if she does not get rid of her. 

Had one cow that would have the calf and walk away.
We would have to keep her in a pen for 2 weeks before she would even some what accept the calf. After the second time of dealing with it she hit the road.


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## glenolam

He is a persistant little thing, I'll give him that.  We watched them closely last night for a few minutes, then from the house the rest of the night.  This morning we were on our way out there to say hello and I saw him behind her trying to nurse, so we stayed back.

He's "nursing" on his own, but she's still doing what she can to get him away.  He'll get a few sucks in, but then she says "eh" and walks away.  She really doesn't like it when he bumps her udder to let down more milk.  She nudges him with her head, but what's odd is that she nudges him TOWARDS her udder, not away from her.... Then once he's at her udder, she kicks him in the mouth...

The many swift kicks to the head has taught him that the best place for him to nurse is from behind.  It's actually quite funny to watch.  He even drags behind her a little trying to suck as she walks away.

Her udder was quite empty last night, which we're hoping is a good thing   He nursed for quite some time again and then followed her around, tounge sticking out waiting for the next slurp...

Either that or she's dried up.  I hope that's not the case, obviously.  This morning it looked a little more full, so maybe she's just adjusting to his needs.  The udders on our other two cows are now about the same size as hers and their calves are 5 weeks old compared to his 3 days.

We wanted to let them out this weekend, but decided against that.  We won't do that until we see that she's not kicking him as much


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## herfrds

Thats good news. He might be nursing at night when it is too dark for her to see him.

Definately keep them in the pen together for awhile longer.


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## glenolam

Little "Meatball" is doing well.  Still ONLY nurses from the rear end, but gets the job done.  Husband was sort of mad that I made him cut the box fence off - we used the brand new EXPENSIVE box fence for their "makeshift" pen and I refused to let him take the entire roll to finish the front field.  I made him cut it where we tacked it so the heifer and her calf could stay together longer.  He understood why, but still didn't like it.

Anyhoo - he's a spritey little thing...and without further ado....

I give you - Meatball!


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## herfrds

Oh I just LOVE them baby pictures. He's a real cutie.

Only seen one ugly calf and it was a Jersey/Black bull cross. Called that calf Homely because she sure was.


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## glenolam

Everyone is doing very well.  Bob (from cow #1) is HUGE and HANDSOME.  Sandy (cow #2) is just a cute little heifer and Meatball is just that - a meatball.  He actually nurses from ALL 3 cows.  Bob's mom is such a nice cow that she doesn't care when the two of them (Bob & Meatball) nurse at the same time (talk about needing to supplement her feed to put weight/condition back on!).  Meatball refuses to nurse the "right" way and only nurses from behind.  Guess when you get kicked in the head enough you learn where to stand so you don't get kicked!

Meatball is by far the nicest calf.  Loves to have his head scratched, but I think it's more to get the crusties off since he often gets pooped or peed on from the way he nurses - poor boy just doesn't get a break.  We clean him often, but, man - I just feel bad for him sometimes.  At least it's not as bad now as it was.  Bob is getting more curious about us and Sandy still prefers to hang low.  Seeing all three of them run across the field is awesome, to say the least!


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## herfrds

So making plans to re-breed the cows?

How about some new pics???


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## glenolam

My husband is in the planning stage of rebreeding - one (or two) have to go so we're deciding who to send down the road, who to sell, who to keep etc.  We have the opportunity to send everyone to another farm for three months w/access to a bull for a very reasonable price - we'd just have to wait long enough to get the girls in better condition and the calves to a good weaning point.  Can you breed a cow that's still nursing?  I imagine it's better not to, but that means we'd have to wait until January for #1 & #2 (we really need names...) and March for #3 so the calves would be 6 mos old.

Ahhhh...pics...yes - I'll get to take some this weekend as it's supposed to be lovely out!


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## jhm47

Most beef cows are rebred about 2.5 - 3 months after calving.  It doesn't hurt them a bit to get bred while nursing a calf.  Just make sure that they are getting adequate nutrition, and they will be fine.  We routinely breed ours on pasture at the same time each year.


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## herfrds

We kick our bulls out around May 21st so we start calving March 1st the next year.
So no problem breeding the cows while nursing.


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## glenolam

Yeah...pictures....

I've been horrible lately - TONS and TONS of stuff going on, so the best I've got for ya are these.  Little Meatball is the calf next to the 2 cows on the left, Bob is the calf to the front on the right and Sandy is tucked behind Bob:


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## jhm47

Very nice cattle.  You really should consider breeding them artificially to a Red Angus bull.  The RA X Hereford cross is tremendous.  Seems to combine the best of both breeds.  You will get red baldy calves.  they usually have much less white on their face, so that helps a lot with pinkeye.  These calves grow much faster, and have great tasting meat.  The heifers also make tremendous mothers.


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## WildRoseBeef

All six of them look healthy and happy.  Those calves certainly look like they're growing well too.


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## Royd Wood

The herd looks great and what a superb post this has been - good on ya glenolam


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## glenolam

Today was a beautiful COLD day so I went out and took some better pictures - 







I thought this one was really funny:






Here's Meatball:






Here's Bob:






Here's Sandy:


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## aggieterpkatie

The third pic down reminds me of the Sesame Street song "Which one of things is not like the other? Which one of these things does not belong?"  The lone Jersey.


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## glenolam

Very true!  That's Sir Loin - our bottle calf we got this summer.  Lord only knows why we got him, but we did.  Guess we just felt like "why not?".

ETA - I just noticed that in the pic of Meatball his mother is standing right behind him and they are making the same face!  Guess the meatball doesn't fall far from the spaghetti plate! (bad joke, I know!)


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## herfrds

Looking good.
It is much easier to see how they are doing standing then laying down.


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