# Heifers with big bellies? Are they fat?



## mysunwolf (Mar 14, 2013)

Wasn't too sure where to post this. We have 2 young heifers, about 7 months old, who we bought a few months ago--one's a Holstein and one's a Holstein/Shorthorn X. When we got them they were eating about 1/4 bale hay a day between them, plus a little grain for treats when we have visitors or we can to get them used to being touched on their teats. The Holstein had a big round belly when we adopted her, the woman told us from grain. Well, we have definitely not been giving much grain, a handful every couple of days. Now the Holstein/Shorthorn is starting to get a belly. This is not bloat, it looks more like pregnancy, though that's not really even possible because they weren't with a bull.

What's the cause of the fat bellies? Is the hay too rich? We're still at 1/4 of a bale and I know that's not enough for these girls, but they are so fat I can't imagine feeding them more! We are just starting to get fresh green grass in the pasture. Could they be feeding themselves on this?

Here's a photo of them:






I'll try to get some better pictures of their bellies so you can see just how huge they are.


----------



## SheepGirl (Mar 14, 2013)

They could be wormy.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Mar 14, 2013)

They don't look fat, just quite hairy, normal for this time of year.  I concur with sheepgirl, could be that they're wormy.


----------



## jhm47 (Mar 15, 2013)

Animals require a certain amount of nourishment in order to grow and maintain their bodies.  1/4 bale of hay and no grain would lead me to believe that these animals are not receiving enough for their size.  Grain will definitely NOT cause big bellies.  Poor quality hay or forage will.  Is it possible that they are consuming old, dry grass from years past in order to fill their rumens?  If they were mine, I'd increase their grain to 1% of their body weight, and double the hay.  I'll bet that they will look much better in a couple weeks.  I'd also worm them immediately.  Dairy cattle need more nutrition than beef cattle in order to maintain good condition.  In my opinion, they are hairy because of a lack of adequate caloric intake.  Good luck!


----------



## mysunwolf (Mar 15, 2013)

You all were absolutely right--we took a fecal into the vet today and they had worm eggs. Gave them the SafeGuard nummies. Their poo looks normal as usual. Not sure on the quality of this hay, but we're definitely up the rations. Thank you for the help and I'll let you know how they do.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Mar 15, 2013)

I've a question: What kind of hay are they getting?  For example, are they getting grass hay (like 100 to 95% grass hay) or are they getting legume-rich hay (hay that is at least 50% legume like alfalfa)?  Maybe get a feed sample done on the hay, if it's not too much to ask, just to see what the protein content is in the hay is.  As JHM mentioned, hay that is of poor quality will be detrimental to these heifers' health, especially those of dairy influence.  

But be careful about the grain.  I agree as well with increasing the ration to 1% of their body weight, but do so slowly, otherwise you will cause digestive upset like bloat.  Right now the microflora in the heifers' rumens are more geared towards digesting fibre than starch. Introduce too much starch too quickly can cause bloating and/or acidosis. Also, depending on what kind of grain you give them, though grain does have a good amount of protein in it (which is what these heifers need to grow), it can be the limiting factor over other nutrients like carbohydrates (starch), phosphorus, calcium and other minerals.  Here you may want to think about supplementing them with a protein supplement like soybean meal or canola meal instead.  

But remember: do so only if they need it.


----------



## mysunwolf (Mar 16, 2013)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> I've a question: What kind of hay are they getting?  For example, are they getting grass hay (like 100 to 95% grass hay) or are they getting legume-rich hay (hay that is at least 50% legume like alfalfa)?  Maybe get a feed sample done on the hay, if it's not too much to ask, just to see what the protein content is in the hay is.  As JHM mentioned, hay that is of poor quality will be detrimental to these heifers' health, especially those of dairy influence.
> 
> But be careful about the grain.  I agree as well with increasing the ration to 1% of their body weight, but do so slowly, otherwise you will cause digestive upset like bloat.  Right now the microflora in the heifers' rumens are more geared towards digesting fibre than starch. Introduce too much starch too quickly can cause bloating and/or acidosis. Also, depending on what kind of grain you give them, though grain does have a good amount of protein in it (which is what these heifers need to grow), it can be the limiting factor over other nutrients like carbohydrates (starch), phosphorus, calcium and other minerals.  Here you may want to think about supplementing them with a protein supplement like soybean meal or canola meal instead.
> 
> But remember: do so only if they need it.


The hay is of moderate quality--not sure if we can get a test done on it. It's definitely mostly grass (orchard, timothy, few others--not sure if there's any fescue or how much is in it) with a tiny bit of alfalfa.

So the theory is that the poor quality hay may be making them more susceptible to worms?

I'm not sure how comfortable I am with supplementing the grain, but I understand that dairy animals usually need at least a little. We've been giving them a 12% protein molasses mix as a treat. I also have a 20% protein pellet. Should I build these into their diets at 1% their weight? Use something else?

Guess I can't figure if they need a protein supplement before I get the hay tested...


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Mar 16, 2013)

> So the theory is that the poor quality hay may be making them more susceptible to worms?


Not necessarily.  Poor quality hay makes them less thrifty--as in it will affect their growth, reproductive productivity (ability to breed on time, breed back or breed alone when it's time for them to conceive), rate of gain, etc.  With grass hay, it can have protein, energy and other nutrients, but sometimes hay that looks nice and green and looks to be of moderate quality can be poorer quality when the feed tests come back.  This can affect the health of cattle, making them get thinner than you want them to be and less productive in the long term, if not the short term.  

Worms or internal parasites come about with exposure to an unbroken parasitic cycle and either not enough natural resistance built up to resist such worms--if not that, then lack of care to deworm these animals regularly (or when it's necessary). 

At that age these heifers should be getting at least 14%--probably 16% for dairy youngsters like those two--protein per day.  But yes, only if you're sure about feeding it.  (Just a note: molasses is primarily energy or carbohydrate, it has a very small protein value to it.  It's just there to make feed or fodder sweet enough that cattle will eat it)

Are you giving these heifers any mineral at all, or is it just the pasture, hay and protein treats/pellets that they're receiving?


----------



## Cricket (Mar 17, 2013)

The way I understand the 'hay belly', is that when the hay quality is lower, they're eating more and it stretches out their tummy.  (I'm not disagreeing with anything else that's been said, just putting it in simpler (to me!) terms!)  I think the older folks used to raise their heifers on the poorer quality hay ("heifer hay") and save the good stuff for their milkers.


----------



## alsea1 (Mar 17, 2013)

Could it be that they have large rumens to accodate lots of hay.


----------



## Symphony (Mar 17, 2013)

WildRoseBeef said:
			
		

> > So the theory is that the poor quality hay may be making them more susceptible to worms?
> 
> 
> Not necessarily.  Poor quality hay makes them less thrifty--as in it will affect their growth, reproductive productivity (ability to breed on time, breed back or breed alone when it's time for them to conceive), rate of gain, etc.  With grass hay, it can have protein, energy and other nutrients, but sometimes hay that looks nice and green and looks to be of moderate quality can be poorer quality when the feed tests come back.  This can affect the health of cattle, making them get thinner than you want them to be and less productive in the long term, if not the short term.
> ...


I think we have a Professor in WildRoseBeef.  So much well versed book terminology for us simple folk.   Don't know too many farmers who talk like that.


----------



## mysunwolf (Mar 17, 2013)

The girls have a basic salt and mineral block (I think 8 minerals or something like that) from TSC.

I'm not sure if they were ever dewormed before we got them, so that could explain the need for it.

I'll be watching their bellies over the next few days to see if there are any changes. Still contemplating the grain.

You guys know a lot more about cattle than I do  I appreciate all the help and advice I can get


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Mar 17, 2013)

Cricket you have it right, and that's kind of what I was rambling on about but failed to mention. When poor or looks-to-be-moderate-quality hay is fed to any animal, it builds up in the rumen to the point that they get quite a belly on them.  They may look fat from a distance because of this, but in reality if a body condition score is done on them to test the level of fat across the back and hip bones, they're probably a bit thinner than you want them to be.  See with the hair on these heifers they may look like they're in good condition, but when you get your hands on them it may be a different story.  

"Heifer hay" is something good because it's enough to help them grow, but not too high quality to make them fat.  But then, you can't get anything that's too low quality either!

Now, what I was mentioning about the hay is that you can literally starve a cow to death on poor quality hay. When a cow (and the microflora in her rumen) can't get much of anything from the "nice looking" hay it's being fed, it may eventually perish, unless something can be done to counter it--i.e., protein supplement.  





			
				alsea1 said:
			
		

> Could it be that they have large rumens to accomodate lots of hay.


That could be a possibility, yes. The rumen will get so full that a cow can't really eat any more of it.  The "bugs" or microflora in the rumen won't be able to get much, if any, protein from such feed because it's comprised of mostly fibre, such as to be expected with the kind of hay that MSW is feeding them.  Now it will have a protein value to it, but it will be what is called a "limiting factor" which means that the nutrient that is less than it should be or considered optimum will be that one nutrient that limits the productivity, reproduction or growth of the animal eating that feed.  But the thing is, when you are feeding a cow (or a sheep or a goat) feed you are also feeding the microflora in the rumen, and they are what the cow depends on to fully digest and utilize what you're feeding to them, whether it's hay, grain, silage, whatever. If the protein value of the feed is less than what a cow (or heifer) needs, then she won't be able to get much from what she's fed unless a supplement with a good level (by "good" I mean at least 8%) of protein--which MSW is doing, which is good--to assist with the digestion of this feed.  

That, to me, explains why the poops look normal for these heifers.  If the protein supplements weren't fed to these girls, I think we may be seeing something a bit more different here.

Symphony, with my kind of schooling you'll have to expect things like this from me.  

MSW, take a look at the salt content of the block.  Most mineral blocks are merely trace mineral with 95% salt and the rest minerals.  I've been seeing much more encouragement towards abandoning the TM blocks and going to loose mineral and salt--cattle can lick and lick as much as they want on a block but still won't get what they need.  With loose, with just a few licks they get their mineral craving satisfied and go back to eating again.


----------



## animalfarm (Mar 17, 2013)

edit


----------



## Cricket (Mar 18, 2013)

Wild Rose, I've yet to see you ramble--you're a wealth of information and it's gracious of you to share it so freely.  Interesting about the free choice minerals.

I try to keep the grain to a minimum, but it does depend on the quality of the hay/pasture they're on and age.  Wish I could keep it to a formula like you guys manage, but I tend to wing it.  If you figure that in nature (or when you're raising them on their moms), they'd be getting all that milk for, what, like a year?, you're bound to need to boost their diet with something.

I usually figure that by 6 months old, my calves will be eating somewhere around what an adult will eat.  Or at my size bales, which aren't really big, a bale a day.  If they're doing well on pasture, I cut out the grain if they hold their ground.  Sometimes, they will shoot up like 2 inches in a week or 2 and look ribby--drives me nuts!

The other thing that you mentioned about touching their udders--try rubbing down their legs, too.  I've seen first time heifers that will let you strip and milk without raising a hair, but accidently brush by their leg and they go airborne!

Best of luck!


----------



## mysunwolf (Mar 31, 2013)

All right, wanted to give everyone an update...

The brown cross girl is named Cookies and the pure Holstein is Cream--original, right?

From last time I posted, I upped the hay but maintained giving 1/4lb grain per day. We had wormed them and Cookies was doing better on the belly side, as well as she just looked pretty sound. Cream, on the other hand, had a belly that just kept swelling. Turns out the girls were getting _skinny_ but I didn't notice until a few days ago because I'm an idiot at cattle. So we upped the grain (16% protein sweet feed pellet). They're not eating any more of the hay, but they're very happy with their grain. I hope to up the grain each day until we're closer to 5lbs a day for each of the girls.

It's pretty obvious, at this point, that their hay is mostly garbage. Might as well be straw for all the nutrition in it.

It's interesting to note that Cookies, the cross girl, is doing better on bad quality hay than Cream, the purebred girl, is. Guess that should've been obvious, but it does make me want to look into smaller, heritage breeds (thinking Dexters, though I don't like their meat much) that do even better on bad quality forage so that I can keep graining to a minimum. These Holstein and cross girls are almost 8 months old so I thought maybe they could get something from the pasture, and turns out Cookies could but Cream could not. Go figure.

They have really wonderful personalities, though. They're like big dogs! And much safer to be around when I give them their grain NOW rather than stand around in the field with it. They're pretty comfortable with slow, steady touch as long as their heads are in the grain buckets. Depending on their mood, they want me to scratch behind their ears. Mostly when I come around they sniff me to figure out if I'm "holding" (grain, that is).

Interestingly, they are drinking much more water now that the grain in their diet has been upped, and eating less of the hay. I think they can still improve. Their personalities are much calmer now that their bellies are full of something other than fiber.

*Oh, and edited* to say that WildRoseBeef, I think you're right about the mineral block, it is mostly salt (which I watch them lick a few times a day). I like the idea of loose supplements, but I have to say that my girls were very discouraged by the grain trash/"dairy silage" powder that I tried them on for one feeding--they hated having to lick lick lick just to get a little bit of the food and kept looking for where the real grain was. Maybe this was because they've been used to pellets. And maybe if it was in mineral form, they would only need one lick to get the amount they needed.


----------



## WildRoseBeef (Mar 31, 2013)

Good to hear they're doing better and you've gotten things figured out!


----------

