# Can Bar-Vac CD & T be kept 21-28 days after opening?



## digger (Jul 7, 2010)

This is the first time I use Bar-vac CD & T, (I am vaccinating kids whose does were never vaccinated) and the product info says:

Use entire contents when first opened.

I dont mean to sound dense, but does this mean I cant even keep the remainder the 21-28 days to give the second dose?  

Thanks


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## ksalvagno (Jul 7, 2010)

That is interesting. I also use Bar-Vac CD&T but my bottle has an expiration date on it. I wonder if Bar-Vac puts out different types?

I don't have an answer for you but I can't believe you would need to throw it all out if you don't use it all at once. Maybe someone else will have a better answer for you.

I would look on the bottle itself and see if there is an expiration date on it.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 7, 2010)

ksal said:
			
		

> That is interesting. I also use Bar-Vac CD&T but my bottle has an expiration date on it.


Digger's bottle also has an expiration date, and I'm imagining that yours is also labeled "Use entire contents when first opened"..

I've never, ever, ever seen any biological product that wasn't labeled as such.

And, digger...yeah...that's what it means.  Once you puncture it, you're being instructed to use what you need and pitch the rest in the trash.  When you need to booster, buy a fresh vial.

Sucks when you're only doing a kid or two, but...well, at least C/D-T's fairly cheap.  :/


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## lupinfarm (Jul 7, 2010)

We can only get our CD/T vaccines in HUGE bottles. Like the kinda size to vaccinate 2 or 3 herds of goats LOL. The vet can only get that size too and he doesn't toss his as far as I know despite the fact that the bottle says use when first opened. Sure, its only $8 a bottle but its $8 a bottle plus $40 for gas. I've used mine even though it says not to.


ETA: Mine says "Use when first opened" AND has an expiry date on it. LOL. Mine expires 11/2011


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## ksalvagno (Jul 7, 2010)

I use mine until it is gone or expired (which usually doesn't happen here). So far I have had no problem. Keep it in the fridge.


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## Roll farms (Jul 7, 2010)

My take on the 'use entire contents' warning is kinda like the "caution: flammable" warning on cigarette lighters.  
It's just the vaccine company covering their rears in case a bottle gets left out or contaminated w/ a dirty needle, etc. and DOES go bad...then gets used...and a goat gets sick....they can say, "Well, you didn't discard after opening as instructed, so we're not liable."

I've been saving / using opened vaccine bottles (as long as the date is still good) for 10 years w/ no problems.

I wouldn't save a bottle if I'd stuck a dirty needle in it or left it out at room temp overnight....but as long as you only use fresh needles and keep it cool, IMHO, it can be used again and again.


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## jodief100 (Jul 8, 2010)

My take on this:  

In my "real" job (the one that pays for my farm)  I do design and development engineering for Medical Devices.  We ALWAYS put warning labels on things  to account for the lowest common stupidity.  We spend hours sitting around in confrence rooms thinking of any idiotic thing someone could possibly do and determine what do we do to prevent it if we can and protect ourselves from liability if we can't.  So, the warning labels you see are to cover the most extreme cases.  Now you know why drugs and devices cost so much, lots of time wasted playing CYA.

I suspect the "use entire contents when opened" is to account for someone using dirty needles, same needle on multiple animals, someone who takes the entire top off instead of piercing the rubber, stores it in the cupboard, etc...

I could be wrong but I keep bottles in the fridge until they are empty or expired and have never had a problem.  I always take them to the barn in a cooler with frozen water bottles in it, only take them out to fill and they go right back in.


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## ()relics (Jul 8, 2010)

I use all the contents...Mostly before the expiration date....But never throw away a bottle with usable liquid in it...Kept refridgerated at all times, of course.


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## lilhill (Jul 8, 2010)

I, too, use the bottle until empty or expiration date, but do keep it refrigerated.  If handled properly, there's no need to throw away good vaccine.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 8, 2010)

Yep, I store bottles in the fridge, always use clean needles, and have never had a problem.  What a waste if I was to throw away the unused vaccine!


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## patandchickens (Jul 8, 2010)

I asked my vet this back in April when I had him out to vaccinate the horses and show me how to do the sheep. 

Since at the time I only had 2 sheep there was a bunch of the CDT left over and he said 'here, keep this, you can use it for their boosters'. We discussed the "use entire contents" thing and his take on it was that while it's *better* to do that, he did not see any problem with keeping it for up to 6 months as long as it was refrigerated and as long as no vaccination needles ever went into the vial. (I.e, using a dedicated needle to ddraw the vacc dose up into the syringe, then switching to another needle to actually inject it into the sheep)

He is not much of a sheep vet but does a LOT of horses and a fair number of cattle, so I would guess he probably knows more or less what he's talking about on this one.

Pat


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## ksalvagno (Jul 8, 2010)

I have been using my CDT vaccines until they are gone for years. I have never had a problem. I use a new needle for every shot. I have never reused needles or even syringes. They are cheap enough that it was never worth the risk to me. I always end up using mine up before the expiration date.


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## digger (Jul 8, 2010)

Thanks everyone.  I wondered if it wasn't a CYA situation on the part of the manufacturer, but I was willing to consider that perhaps the vaccine would deteriorate with the introduction of air into the vial... BTW, I tried asking the manufacturer through their website contact portal, but they didn't respond.  They'd probably take the standard CYA line and say discard it anyway.  LOL.  We used clean needles, refrigerated, and used care in handling it.  We're going to save it and use it up with the second vaccination.  Thanks again!


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## cmjust0 (Jul 8, 2010)

Bear in mind that medications like b-complex are specifically labeled as "multi-dose" vials and come in 250ml and 500ml vials, whereas vaccines generally have the "use entire contents" warning and are produced in very small amounts to encourage producers to do just that.  

I mean, if it was simply a CYA situation, wouldn't _everything_ would be produced in small vials and labeled with the "use entire contents" warning?

I think so...yet, that's not how it is.

Also strikes me as odd that it's only biological products -- categorically -- which are labeled this way.  

Do what y'all want, but I figure if I'm going to take the time to actually give the shots, I'm not going to take a chance on the vaccine being *in*effective just so I can save...what...maybe a dollar or two?

To me, it's just not worth it.

FWIW, I've done some studying up on this..  The longest period of time I've _ever_ seen recommended to store an opened vial of killed vaccine in the fridge is 10 days -- and that's only if it contains a preservative like thimerosal.

Also, keep in mind that just because you stick something labeled 'VACCINE' in the animal and it doesn't immediately keel over dead from a contaminated batch, _that doesn't mean it actually got an effective vaccination._  They could very well _not_ die, _nor_ show adverse injection reactions, _nor_ get an effective vaccination..

But, hey...whatever floats yer boats.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 8, 2010)

Mine doesn't come in a small vial :/ and is labeled use by 11/2011


Mine comes in like a 300 dose vial. Then again, its actually NOT the goat one its the Cattle/Sheep one since I can't get the goat one.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 8, 2010)

Ya know what?...if I'm being super honest...if all I could get was a 300-dose vial of cattle vaccine and I only had a handful of goats, I probably wouldn't vaccinate at all.


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## lupinfarm (Jul 8, 2010)

Yeahhh well I vaccinate anyway. Vet said go ahead and use the same vial, BUT use a seperate needle to suck up the juice (already do that) and make sure it is refrigerated (already do). The vet doesn't even use a new vial each time.


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## digger (Jul 10, 2010)

I've been thinking a lot about what you said CMJUST0:

"Also, keep in mind that just because you stick something labeled 'VACCINE' in the animal and it doesn't immediately keel over dead from a contaminated batch, that doesn't mean it actually got an effective vaccination.  They could very well not die, nor show adverse injection reactions, nor get an effective vaccination.."

That thought had occurred to me too--how do we know it's still effective-- but then after hearing of all the people who do use the vial up, I have to wonder--if so many people are doing this and aren't having any problems with their goats getting tetanus or enterotoxemia, then wouldn't you think either the vaccine would have to still be effective, or these diseases aren't the big problem we're led to believe?  Or is everyone just that lucky...?

I checked my tetanus antitoxin, and it said the same thing.  So you're right about the biologicals...


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## Roll farms (Jul 10, 2010)

I've had a goat w/ tetanus on this place (bought her, 7 days later she had it, so she 'brought' it w/ her....) so it's definitely in the ground.  

And it's a NASTY disease to see / deal with....I fear it.  I vaccinate to prevent it b/c I have dealt w/ it, it's not just an abstract concept to me.

And, since they're goats, they get injured around here a lot, cuts, scrapes, etc...but none have caught it.

Therefore, I'm led to believe...what I'm using works just fine.

Here is Mbuzi as I found her, in full lock down....







Here she is 7 mos. later, fine as frog hair.


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## digger (Jul 10, 2010)

Wow--thanks for sharing the pics.  I'm glad to hear things worked out OK--she looks great.  What did you do to treat? (I'm assuming tetanus antitoxin, but how much, how often, anything else?)  It's always better to know what to do before you need to do it...Thanks!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 10, 2010)

I have been using up my bottles of CDT for 13 years on alpacas. In the 13 years that I have owned them and also vaccinated hundreds of others alpaca crias with my bottles of CDT, there has been NOT ONE that has died from tetanus or clostridium.  Believe me, if someone lost their cria due to tetanus or clostridium, they would be calling me and demanding payment for their lost cria.

I do make sure that I use up my bottle by the end of the year and buy a new one in the spring. Most of the time, this isn't a problem for me since I vaccinate so many alpacas and now goats. Everyone that I know keeps their bottle until they use it up or it expires.


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## Roll farms (Jul 10, 2010)

Antitoxin, B vitamin shots, Penicillin, oral electrolytes, lots of TLC, we chopped up alfalfa cubes and drenched her w/ that and oatmeal soaked in water.  
The vet gave her a shot of steroid as well....she lost her kids, but we saved her.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 10, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> The longest period of time I've _ever_ seen recommended to store an opened vial of killed vaccine in the fridge is 10 days -- and that's only if it contains a preservative like thimerosal.


I would think it wouldn't matter as much with killed vaccine, only modified live.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 12, 2010)

Ok, so, why is it then that ALL biologicals instruct the consumer to use the entire contents when the vial is first opened, or pitch it?

It's not the CYA thing, because there are plenty of example of non-antibiotic multi-dose vials out there...  Right off the top of my head, the multi-dose vials I have in my own cabinet include vit. B complex, Bo-Se, lutalyse, banamine, dexamethasone, etc..

Why do none of those state to use it all at once if using it all at once is merely a CYA thing we can ignore just as we do the label on a box of q-tips that basically says 'WARNING:  DON'T STICK THIS IN YER EAR.'

There's gotta be something else to it..


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## aggieterpkatie (Jul 12, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok, so, why is it then that ALL biologicals instruct the consumer to use the entire contents when the vial is first opened, or pitch it?
> 
> It's not the CYA thing, because there are plenty of example of non-antibiotic multi-dose vials out there...  Right off the top of my head, the multi-dose vials I have in my own cabinet include vit. B complex, Bo-Se, lutalyse, banamine, dexamethasone, etc..
> 
> ...


  I don't even think my vial says that.  I'll check with I get home.


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## mamaluv321 (Jul 15, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok, so, why is it then that ALL biologicals instruct the consumer to use the entire contents when the vial is first opened, or pitch it?


Liability, plain and simple. I've worked in medical facilities (nursing homes and rehabilitation centers mostly) in quite a few states. Every state has their own mandates and regulation invoved, but every facility I've worked at has used their meds to the last drop or expiration date. This includes antibiotics, innocculants, vitamens, hormones, insulin,ect. Stands to reason that if it's good enough for humans then it should be for livestock. I believe the only reason they put "toss after use" is because they expect us to be filthy cretins that don't know how to use a sterile needle each time, and as someone else said, they're  pitchin to the lowest end of the spectrum.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2010)

mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But again, there's a HUGE hole in that logic...  Go look at your 250ml vial of b-complex and see if it has that same warning.  Or your vial of Lutalyse.  Or your vial of Bo-Se..  Or your vial of Ivomec injectable..  

They don't carry that warning.

Indeed, you'll probably find the words "multi-dose vial" printed somewhere on the labels, specifically noting that it's OK to set it back on the shelf and come back for another dose later.

So, if it were strictly a liability situation and the concern was that some cretin would stick a dirty needle back in the vial, contaminate it, let it incubate, and then proceed to kill all the rest of his animals with it....EVERY VIAL of EVERYTHING would be labeled "use entire contents," just like biologicals are labeled.

But, again, everything's NOT labeled that way...

_Why is that?_


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## Roll farms (Jul 15, 2010)

> But, again, everything's NOT labeled that way...
> 
> Why is that?


IMHO (for what that's worth....)

The difference is that vitamins, supplements, dewormers, etc. aren't meant to prevent illness by causing an immune reaction.

A bottle of CD&T that is proven bad could be a bigger liability (if a herd broke out sick) than a bottle of B12 that's past it's prime.

I've read all your arguments, CM, and thought about what you've written... but you're not swaying me.  
Like I said, I KNOW we have tetanus in the ground here thanks to Mbuzi....and the vaccines I've given (out of bottles that've been used over a period of 6 mos or more...are obviously working....I still say it's a CYA thing.
My vet uses the same vaccine bottle until it's empty, I figure she spent the big bucks to learn if that's ok or not....and that's good enough for me.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 15, 2010)

Alrighty.  

Keep in mind that I'm not necessarily trying to slam anybody or anything like that...it just seems odd to me that it would be a CYA thing, given how many vials are labeled "multi dose"..  

And if it turns out to be strictly a CYA thing, I'll probably start saving vax myself.  I *will* find out what the reason is, though....somehow.

I really just want to _know_...ya know?


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