# does this look like a good deal and a good horse?



## lespaul0738 (Sep 14, 2010)

http://huntington.craigslist.org/grd/1954338187.html


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## w c (Sep 14, 2010)

No.


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## lespaul0738 (Sep 14, 2010)

ty, you saved me a waste of money


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## patandchickens (Sep 15, 2010)

a) "Hackme"??? LOL. It's not even a Hackney pony, it's a small saddlebred-cross or mountain horse type.

b) if it's so darn "broke, easy to handle, good kid horse", how come the 250-lb guy squashing it is having to lean back with all his weight to keep it from rushing out of the first picture? 

c) it is severely misridden and mistrained, as you can see from its muscling and how it holds itself.

BTW be very leery of any ads touting "kid safe" and such, if they do not show a kid actually riding the horse at a GAIT (not halt) on a fairly loose rein.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat


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## goodhors (Sep 15, 2010)

And of all the pony breeds to pick, Hackney is among the lowest choice for children!  Hackney has a lively way of going, needs a calm hand on the reins.  They usually are more adult oriented, good driving pony but very sensitive, can be over-reactive at times.  

A quiet kid with GOOD horse skills could probably get along with a well trained Hackney pony, but not the animal for beginners or childish temper.

I have no  clue if the pictured animal is really a Hackney, but the clues from the photos do seem to say that this is a bad deal.  All the points mentioned above, really tell me to stay away from this animal.  Looks like he has been thru the "Wham-Bam Training Process" and young pony has little or no idea how to do riding things the ad says he does.

Keep on looking, this pony is not what you want.


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## patandchickens (Sep 15, 2010)

Not that it matters (it's scary and a bad deal), but I really *really* don't think that is a Hackney pony at all in any way.

First, because chestnut is quite uncommon in hackney ponies.

Second, because hackney ponies are typically about 12.2-13.2, whereas I would guess that critter at 14.2+ (depending on the size of the guy). Not *impossible* but pretty unlikely.

Third, because all the hackney ponies I have ever known (about four) or seen (about two zillion at the Royal Winter Fair in Toronto every year) have very refined light almost arab-y faces, whereas the animal in the ad has a clonky hammer-set moose-nosed head more typical of the mountain-horse types.

And fourth because the body is just not hackney-pony-shaped either.

As goodhors says, they are not what you'd think of as a riding horse for anyone who needs a dead-broke kid-safe horse (although I knew one who was a decently good lesson horse for kids who didn't mind a bit of speed). Really they are basically_ driving_ ponies.

I would not honestly recommend any mountain-type gaited horse as a kids horse either, unless it has been trained in less-typical fashion, i.e. to go with its back engaged and its head and neck not inverted and pointing at the sky, and to go on light contact in a snaffle or other non-leverage bit. 

Pat


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## mully (Sep 15, 2010)

Hackney ponies are a ball of fire and need a real good trainer... certainly not for children. It would be fun to see the guy ride it


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## w c (Sep 15, 2010)

He looks like he's having a fairly hard time doing anything with it.

And I'd guess that a guy that huge would have broken a 3 yr old pony of that size in half already.

As far as it being a Hackney pony, it doesn't look like a Hackney pony.  If it were a Hackney pony, it would probably not be a suitable mount for a child. so I would guess that the ad is a pretty huge stretch.  Most Hackney Ponies (of course there are exceptions) are bottle rockets.

To all the folks trying to get a great horse for 400 dollars or less...probably a good idea to take a much more experienced person with you, and to get the horse examined by a vet.  SOmetimes 400 dollar horses wind up being very, very expensive.


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## lespaul0738 (Sep 15, 2010)

ty guys, i know nothing about horses and have only rode the ones that you rent to ride behind a guide and you pretty much do nothing, but would this be a good one/deal? http://huntington.craigslist.org/grd/1950408290.html  i really want one that i could learn on how to ride


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## freemotion (Sep 15, 2010)

You will save yourself a LOT of money if you simply get lessons for now....that is the best and safest way to learn.  Then you will be more knowledgable and ready to purchase one of your own.  Really, you will enjoy your first horse SO much more if you have some basics down and can be safe.

That last ad....whoa, that poor mare is in some serious pain in that last picture.  That someone would post that in an ad says a lot about their level of skill and knowledge.  Run, run far and fast.  To your nearest lesson stable!


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## rodriguezpoultry (Sep 15, 2010)

If you're just learning how to ride...


Get a horse that's "been there, done that"

Older horses are the way to go with brand-new riders. Get a horse that is a generally laid back breed. (Quarter Horses, Paints...something easy going.)

Arabians are WAY too high strung for me. Probably because they are SO freaking smart.


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## patandchickens (Sep 16, 2010)

Please go find a reputable lesson barn, take some lessons, and ask THEM to help you find a good beginner horse. These ads you are looking at are going to get you into serious trouble.

Arabs are NOT all inherently spooky or high-strung (there are a lot of bombproof ones out there, RoPo); however, relatively few 4 yr olds of any breed make good beginner horses, and this particular Arab is being SERIOUSLY mis-ridden and mis-trained, and is utterly not appropriate for a beginner until/unless someone fixes her various problems first. (She may or may not be sound, either).

Please please please, get rid of this idea that you should be looking for "a good deal" on a horse. When you are new to horses, the only "deal" you should be looking for is to wind up with THE RIGHT HORSE. The horse market is so 'down' right now that you should certainly be able to find a sound sane beginner horse without spending very much -- but do not be worrying about the "good deal" aspect of it. That is a real fast way to end up a) out a buncha money (purchase price is about the _least_ expensive part of horse ownership, and problem horses often cost more to own than good horses) and/or in the hospital with permanent injuries.

And DO NOT BELIEVE anything the seller says regarding the quietness or bombproofness or kidsafeness of a horse for sale. While not all sellers are flat-out liars, it is real real common for words have different meanings to them than to you, or, um, the seller is living in a different version of reality than the rest of us, shall we say. Same goes for the concept of the horse being sound. 

Best of luck, please be careful and learn more about horses BEFORE buying,

Pat


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 16, 2010)

freemotion said:
			
		

> That last ad....whoa, that poor mare is in some serious pain in that last picture.





			
				patandchickens said:
			
		

> it is severely misridden and mistrained, as you can see from its muscling and how it holds itself.
> 
> ...and this particular Arab is being SERIOUSLY mis-ridden and mis-trained, and is utterly not appropriate for a beginner until/unless someone fixes her various problems first.


I've never owned a horse but would love to at some point in the distant future.  Out of curiosity, can you folks elaborate on these points?


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## michickenwrangler (Sep 16, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> freemotion said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The ideal is for a horse to travel long and low in a relaxed frame with light contact through the rein from the bit to the hand. You want more muscles on the top of the neck (crest under the mane) than at the bottom. Heavily muscling on the underside is called a "ewe neck".

Now apart from visuals, a horse that has a ewe neck will move with its head way too high, front legs taking most of the impact and its back hollowed out. It will be prone to lameness and back problems. You want a horse to push itself through the hindquarters and carry its own back and head in a relaxed frame.

Most pleasure horses or horses that are not being schooled regularly will have a slight ewe neck, but for pleasure riding a slight one is *acceptable*. Most competition horses in serious disciplines like reining, hunter/jumper, dressage, vaulting and even endurance (all the top riders school dresssage) will have better necks with muscles along the crest and nice backs.


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## lespaul0738 (Sep 16, 2010)

thanks guys, again you helped me out, lol


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## w c (Sep 17, 2010)

On the second horse - no, not a good choice for someone to learn to ride on.  Yes that's cute that the person can lie on the horse's back when it is loose, but the one riding picture is a big 'Don't Go There' picture.  The horse looks hard to control and the person riding it isn't doing it any favors either.  

You just don't find nicely trained, appropriate horses to learn on for a few hundred bucks.

On the other hand, if someone trusts that you know what you are doing, they might just trust you enough to GIVE you their old timer to learn on, or let you come to their place and ride.  But that doesn't happen unless you can ride some and know what you're doing to some extent.

And yes, if you are starting out in riding, please, please, please DO NOT BUY A HORSE NOW.  Take lessons.

These ladies that posted, they know what they're talking about..  Please listen to them.

As appealing as it sounds to buy a horse, even the quietest horse, even the best trained horse, is going to turn into a completely out of control brat in about one month, if you have no riding experience.  DO NOT get a horse now, PLEASE.  I've seen more people badly hurt because they just HAD to get 'my own horse' instead of taking lessons and learning how to sit in the saddle and control a horse FIRST.

Lots of places give riding lessons.  Don't try to scrimp and save here either.  Get a decent instructor.  Lessons aren't only for people who want to compete at shows.  They teach horse control and how to sit on the horse in such a way that if he makes a sudden move you don't fall off, both are very important.

Most likely, after a year or two of weekly (or hopefully even more often) lessons you will know a lot more about horses and you could probably lease or half lease a horse that you can ride now and again by yourself and have a lesson on once a week.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Sep 17, 2010)

To what extent can a ewe neck be caused by poor conformation rather than muscle development?


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## michickenwrangler (Sep 17, 2010)

Horses with naturally higher set necks are predisposed to them. Many horses are born with a slight ewe neck but if they are never required to work properly, it will just get worse. Again for light trail riding and pleasure riding, you can ride a horse with a ewe neck. But if you want to show or compete in a high impact discipline where a horse is going to carry itself in frame, you'd want to avoid a horse with one. Again, with proper work they can be corrected but it takes a lot of time.


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## patandchickens (Sep 17, 2010)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> To what extent can a ewe neck be caused by poor conformation rather than muscle development?


Not to a very great extent, except in very rare truly-pathologically-built individuals.

When the horse is being actively ridden, if the neck looks hollow (concave-up) it is pretty much 100% due to either serious rider error, chronic serious mis-training, or pretty significant pain.

OTOH when the horse is just standing there in the pasture lounging, a larger number of horses have necks that look at best straight on top and in some cases hollowish if they have very high withers. While that is not something you'd ideally want in a top-notch athlete for most disciplines, it is totally liveable for normal riding-horse AS LONG AS IT DISAPPEARS WHEN RIDDEN.

The thing to remember is that the topline of the horse's neck does not have skeletal structure anywhere even NEAR it, except at the withers and the poll. The neckbones of the horse are down in the middle-to-lower-third of the neck. So the shape of the topline of the neck is determined by what's going on with a) the ligaments and muscles of the loooong muscles of the topline (neck-back-croup) and b) the muscles of the neck itself, including those that articulate the shoulderblade.

Pat


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## w c (Sep 17, 2010)

Most horses aren't trained very well.  They go along pretty good as long as there is no contact with the reins to their mouth.  But when the rider starts using the reins the riders are unsteady in their seat and don't balance well, and that makes their hand bounce up and down and jab the horse in the mouth, because they are jerking on the reins all the time.  This horse's neck looks ok until someone rides her, LOL.  Then she starts cranking her head up in the air as high as she can get it, to try and avoid the jabbing from the rider's hand flopping up and down.  The rider's feet are out in front of her, she's off balance and so the horse's back is getting a pounding too.  

 'ewe' neck joins with the body low down on the chest.  The horse has to 'crank' his neck up in the air just to balance at all.  Pair up a badly shaped neck and a bad rider and you get...well...bad stuff.

In many forms of riding the idea is to get the horse's head down and keep it down. It doesn't really matter if the horse is off balance as long as he has that 'look' and keeps his head DOWN.  So because of that, some people just look at 'is the head up' or 'is the head down'.  Head down is good, head up is bad.  Then there's a type of riding where the rider is more worried about the horse's balance and how he's working his back and hind legs to power and balance himself.  His head isn't going to be cranked up in the air into giraffe land, but it isn't going to be kept way down low, either.


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## ohne (Sep 17, 2010)

No on both of them. I agree with others if you are looking to learn to ride find a good barn and take lessons there. Both of these horses have poor conformation and neither of them look good under saddle. of course that could have more to do with the people riding them, a competent rider might do wonders for these horses. not that either of them stand any chance of going to worlds or being show horses for that matter.

Craigslist is not a good place to buy a horse. the people selling on there are often less that reputable. This should be obvious by their inability to properly spell the breed of horse they are claiming to own. If you are serious about finding a horse try dreamhorse.com you have a better chance of finding quality.


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## w c (Sep 18, 2010)

I'm going to take it a step further and say do not buy a horse off the internet at all because there is not one single website out there that guarantees their ads are truthful (how could they) and the internet in general is a lousy way to buy horses and a great dumping ground for problems - dreamhorse too, in any case a novice can't tell a good horse from bad or a suitable and appropriate horse from not suitable and not appropriate(it could be fine for someone else but not beginner appropriate).  Buy a horse your instructor finds and recommends and approves of  - AFTER a few years of riding lessons.


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## rodriguezpoultry (Sep 19, 2010)

Sorry wc, I have to disagree.

The internet is a GREAT place to start looking for horses. The buyer is the one that needs to go out and actually do the footwork once they FIND a horse they're interested in.

If the horse doesn't pass the meet-n-greet, drop it like a hot pot.


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## Roll farms (Sep 19, 2010)

There was once a girl who *wanted* horses since childhood...who dreamed of one day owning a horse....who married a nice guy, and bought a place in the country....built a small barn, bought a few goats and llamas, and then decided, "OK, I'm a farmer now, I'm ready for a horse."
She had ridden other people's horses a time or two, and ridden on trail.
Her new Father-in-Law had lots of horse knowledge, though...so he could help her out.

She saw an ad in the paper for "2 horses, $800.00" in the dead of winter, and thought "What a bargain!" and went to look at them.  The seller told her "The mare is broke, the gelding is green broke" and the wonderfully nice man even offered to deliver them if she'd take them that weekend...how helpful!

Those 2 horses (turned out to be large ponies, btw) soon bullied her and had her 'trained'.  She basically had to dump their feed in the feeder in the pasture and run, to keep them from crowding her and knocking her down.  She even lost her muck boots in the mud a few times, trying to keep from being stomped to the ground.

By spring they'd torn up the small barn (that really wasn't meant for horses) and had taken down the fence twice.

When warm weather came, she tried to saddle the 'broke' mare and ride her.  Every trick she knew to get a horse to 'go' failed to work.  Finally she snapped the reins and took the worlds shortest and bumpiest ride.  The mare was NOT broken.  
Her husband tried to saddle the gelding, but he would have none of it...a bridle / bit sent him into the air....green broke he was NOT.

They wouldn't stand for a farrier, the vet nearly broke her arm trying to float their teeth, and basically the girl ended up DISLIKING horses in general and wondering, "What the heck do people even WANT these things for???"

Long story short, the mare (which was supposed to be open / unbred) ended up being pregnant and foaling...she died 2 days later.  The gelding was sold for $100.00 to the farrier's son as a 'project'.  
The foal, having been hand-reared, was imprinted and mean as a snake (no idea on what the breeding was intended for, but it sure wasn't done to get an even-tempered animal), and she was sold as a yearling for $200.00 to a family who vowed to send her for training.

The moral of this story is, sometimes you want something SO BADLY that you make bad decisions that can end up souring you on the experience so much that I...I mean that girl.. ...grew up and doesn't even WANT a horse anymore.


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## w c (Sep 19, 2010)

I'm sticking to my story, ropo, except to add what I should have written before - the internet is not a good place for an inexperienced person to choose a horse, s/he should let a qualified and honest instructor or trainer select an appropriate horse that the instructor has seen in action, being a good beginner's horse - FOR YEARS.  The biggest mistake people make is shopping on their own when they don't have enough experience to tell what is appropriate.  A great many people are not honest when they sell a horse.   Too, many people simply don't realize what can go wrong or what their level of ability is.

A man brought a horse in to sell - big huge strong field hunter.  He said, 'I can't control this horse, I can lift 200 lbs with my arms at the gym, but I can't control this horse'.  The agent first tried to explain that riding a horse was not about arm strength (with a few scary type images in mind as he did) but the guy insisted a man of his strength should be able to control any horse.  So he asked him, 'who's been helping you with the horse?'  'Oh no one, I don't need lessons.  I took lessons for three months when I was seven'.  People often don't have enough experience to know these kinds of ideas aren't true.  In fact, the man who SOLD him the horse told him a big strong feller like him could control ANY horse.  The seller flattered him and he believed the seller (a common tactic).

To be honest, I've seen even quite experiernced people duped on the internet.  It is an even better way to dump a bad horse than the pre-internet method - send him far enough away where no one knows the seller or has seen the horse 'in action'.

Right now, we are in a bad market.  Horse sales have been down for several years now, and to top it off many people have lost jobs or had their hours cut (some of the boarding barns around here that usually have a year waiting list are 50% or less full) - so the markets are flooded with horses that have been sitting around for a long time with no training and no handling, with lamenes, or with other really bad problems.  The market is just full of these.  

I cannot even begin to count the number of horror stories I've heard like the previous post, some of them far worse - people crippled or even killed.  Generally, because people get taken in by a completely dishonest seller - and granted that person could be down the street, he need not necessarily be using an internet ad.  

An experienced person can generally spot those guys a mile away, or after a short conversation.  But not always.  

My suggestion is to buy a horse locally, a horse someone more experienced than you has seen over and over at the kind of shows where you want to show, or doing the type of thing you want to do.  But my suggestion is also not to buy a horse until you've taken riding lessons for several years, and preferably, also leased a horse, first half lease then full lease.  Get an idea of what it's really like to take care of a horse every day.


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## patandchickens (Sep 19, 2010)

rodriguezpoultry said:
			
		

> Sorry wc, I have to disagree. The internet is a GREAT place to start looking for horses. The buyer is the one that needs to go out and actually do the footwork once they FIND a horse they're interested in.


Personally I'd phrase it differently altogether.

I do not think it is at all a good idea (batting average is woefully low, and % disasters woefully high) for an inexperienced person new to horses to be horse-shopping for themselves at ALL. On the internet, on tack-shop bulletin boards, whatever. 

Yes, sometimes it works out ok, but often the opposite.

As far as inexperienced people who against all common sense *do* choose to shop for their own horse, or people with some-but-not-decades of horse experience, there is still one big pitfall to internet horse shopping as opposed to looking at written very-local ads.  The internet makes it real, real easy to look at horses located many hours from you, and get all excited about them. People seem a lot less apt to walk away from something 'not-quite-right' when they drove 4 hrs to see it than when they drove 40 minutes. I truly believe that I see a higher rate of "Obvious Bad Idea Purchases" among people buying at some distance than buying very locally.

JME,

Pat


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## rodriguezpoultry (Sep 19, 2010)

But, the internet is a good place to START looking for the horses.

I'm not saying don't take anyone who is knowledgeable in horses. By all means, take your trainer or family member or even vet if you want to, but the internet should only be used as a tool to get connected with people who may have the horse with the disciplines that you are after.


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## Eliza (Sep 19, 2010)

Like anything, buyer beware, buyer beware, buyer beware.  If you know what you're looking for, know what you're looking at, Craigs list can be great.  I bought a horse over the internet (something I would NOT recommend) after months and months researching bloodlines speaking to the breeder, studying photos ect, and even so, this is a horse I love BUT he's not one I would have purchased.  He is everything his bloodline stands for; he is CMK breeding by Bazy Tankersly, but he he will never be a top dressage horse - first level maybe.

Best way to buy is to take lessons from a stable/training barn in the discipline you are interested in and then LEASE a horse.  You can show, ride, and move up/advance and have a long thoughtful time to look and work with your trainer.

Live and learn.


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## patandchickens (Sep 20, 2010)

rodriguezpoultry said:
			
		

> But, the internet is a good place to START looking for the horses.


Nope, sorry, I'm sticking with "beginners should not BE looking for horses"   Really really. Even if (best case scenario) they do enlist an experienced (like, *really* experienced, with many many horses over many many years) person to come along to try out horses, beginners tend to pick the most-inappropriate ads and totally ignore the ones that would actually be much better prospects.

JME,

Pat


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## w c (Oct 10, 2010)

I agree with that - beginners shouldn't be looking anywhere on their own.  

How anyone can be taken in.  A trainer friend of mine and I both found a horse on the internet we thought looked good for me.  Beautiful video, and a nice record of show wins.  Right age and level of training.  Show record validated with the national organization.  Not cheap.

When I was about to start the process of buying, a judge contacted me.  She said she could not stand idly by and let me buy the horse.  It was a chronic rearer and very dangerous.  The show wins were not from an occasional show but just the results from a few shows out of almost 80 shows, where the horse had not reared and reared and reared. and it had not reared because of a very, very forceful warmup, at shows where the people felt they could get away with that.  Yes, once in a while it would not rear.  

The internet makes it easier to misrepresent horses.  But the older tactic - sending the horse far away where no one knows him, was pretty effective too.  Beginners are very vulnerable to all these tactics.  They got taken for a ride often enough pre internet!

Mostly, sellers can appeal to the rider's ego.  Even if the horse obviously has a problem, the seller has an angle.  S/he will often go on and on about how your 'gentle approach' or 'more skilled approach' is just what he needs.  Or the chronic lameness 'just needs time'.  They don't call 'em 'horse dealers' for nothin'!  Of course if you find a good one hang on to that person!!!


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## mistee (Oct 10, 2010)

I have bought 2 horses off the internet and had great success but I knew what I was looking for..... The first I was just looking for a nice plug for my young daughter.. The people were up front and honest and said she had an old knee injury.. I contacted their vet and he said she was fine for a child,,5 to learn to walk / trot.. She worked great for what I needed..

when my daughter was ready to advance I found a  leopard app on dreamhorse for $300.... I drove 3 hours to go look at him and as soon as the owner came out of the barn a knew I was dealing w/ a "dealer" and not a good one..... First off the horse was said to be 10,,,lol,,, RIGHT,,,,, if he was 17 I was lucky.. secondly I could tell he was recovering from founder,,, underweight and just not happy w/ life... I did like the look in his eye and I spent some time w/ him checking him over and doing some ground / light saddle work w/ him... SHe kept telling me he was a bit bullheaded,,,lol,, no he was just smarter then her.... You could tell this horse honestly did not like this women.... Well, I decided to go ahead and for $300 take a chance on him.. Went a few days later w/ the trailor to pick him up.. She comes out of the barn w/ him all hyper,, yanking on his lead and yelling at him saying she knew he wouldnt get on the trailor that he was going to need to be tranqed.. I walked up and quietly took the lead from her,, told hubby to open the trailor as soon as the door opened HE drug me ON thr trailor... He was wanting to get out of there,,lol..

It has been 2 years and we still have him.. He is a great guy and sooooo smart... The vet guessed him to be at least 18 if not older but I knew that and I love older horses... He has his moments as do all horses and if he goes a few months w/o riding you have to spend a day or 2 reschooling him as he gets a bit touchy.. I think he had been treated rough in the past so he likes a gentle hand but you do have to be firm w/ him or he will walk all over you.. He is an excellent escape artist and we woke one morning to find he had gotten out and into our backyard.. I guess the grass under the trampoline looked good cause he was giving the trampoline a ride... He didnt care that it was on his back he was just grazing along.. I found out later that this women goes to all the auctions and just buys and sell,,,, no surprise there...

You can find good honest people on the internet like the first horse I posted about or you can find scums like the 2nd.. You have to know what you are doing or take someone along who does.. The fact that you asked here shows you are smart and seeking advise first..

Here is Inky!!


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