# Anemic Herd



## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 5, 2014)

Hello all!

I have a 3 year old Boer doe, 2 4 year old Spanish Wethers, a 4 year old Kiko Doe, three 9 month old Boki doelings and a 9 month old Boer wether.

The two Boki doelings are fine, scoring at the top level ( a 1 )on Famancha, and their fecals are clean.
The three wethers, and the boer doe are consisitently scoring at a 3 on Famancha.
The Kiko doe is consistently scoring a 4, and the boer doeling is a 5 (!!!!).

I've never had a worm problem with my herd until this summer, and it came on sudden.  I had another boer doe that stayed at a famancha of 3, dipped down to a 1 and died.

I have had several McMasters surveys done and each one reveals a high load of Barberpole, and more recently coccidia is starting to elevate.  The Boer doeling and the Kiko exhibits signs with occasional scouring and poor appetite.  The Kiko is severely underweight, and is consistently eating only half her normal ration.  These are the only two that are symptomatic.  The boer doeling is now stunted, and half the size of the other babies.

This has been going on all summer.

I have wormed with everything at this point, ivermectin, valbazen, strongid horse paste, cydectin pour on, and cydectin sheep drench.  Each wormer was done 2-3 times, ten days between.  The fecals after each worming show lower numbers, but not enough to fix the problem, and the numbers are back up by the time it is ok to worm again.

The vets feel that the coccidia is due to the enormous stress on my herd right now, and is being treated with Dimeth monthly at 1cc per 10 lbs.

I am treating anemic animals with redcell daily.  

They are fed a mixture of granulated goat pellets (17%).  The does are getting some dairy feed mixed in as well.  They have fresh water at all time, and water troughs are cleaned regularly.  The barn is thoroughly cleaned weekly, as are feed troughs.  Pastures are large, and well maintained, and we have been rotating, though at this point I doubt there is a "clean" pasture left.   

I lost my doe doe about a month ago, she went quickly.  However, with no real signs of improvement, I think that all the effort put in by my vets and I are doing nothing more than keeping the two sick ones alive instead of fixing the problems.  All three of the vets that I have been consulting have now told me that they dont really know what else to try.

This is not just weak genes,  these goats were all fine with no problems with worms until this summer.  The boer doeling is a cull, but the Kiko doe, Lily, is not a cull animal.  I see her going downhill again, she is very special to me, I dont want to bury her!

I am hoping that someone in here can offer some sort of suggestion on what else I can try.  I tried to be thorough, but if you need more information, please ask.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 5, 2014)

First I would like to welcome you to BYH! 

Sound like you are covering everything.

Are they sure these are Barberpole? Flukes (certain kinds of flukes) under a scope will look identical except for size.
What is the land like? How much rain did you get? Has it been pretty wet consistently? How tall is the forage?

Pour ons should never be used in goats according to researchers with the ACSRPC .  http://www.acsrpc.org/
What kind of doasge is being used?
I ask because if you ask 3 different vets more than likely you will get 3 different protocols.

Where do you put them when de-worming? 

What kind, if any testing have you done with your herd?
CAE? Johhnes? CL?

Be careful with redcell as iron deficiency is bad but iron toxicity can be deadly too.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 5, 2014)

PDF for dewormer info...

http://www.acsrpc.org/Resources/PDF/2014GoatDewormerChart.pdf


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## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 5, 2014)

Pretty sure they are barberpole, but with the worming that we have done, flukes should have been hit as well.  All three vets agree'd that it was barberpole, as well as my not as experienced eye.

Land.......about 2 acres per goat, 50/50 grass and wooded forage.  Forage is heavily wooded, knee high is about the lowest point, grass is about 7 inches (although we just clipped it pretty short to dry it out more)

Wet......yes, it's been very wet,  lots of rain.  Prime worm conditions.

Pour ons.......I agree but desparate times call for desparate measures.

Doseage varies on the wormer that I used.  Cant recall off my head what was used for each wormer (in my herd book at the barn) , but they were correct according to the vets and the local ag extension and my research online. My vets do have some different protocols, not drastically different, but enough to give me options.

When worming, I dry lot them for 4-5 days afterwards.

We dont do testing, except for fecals.


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## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 5, 2014)

Thank you.  lol, that is the chart that I have, and used for dosing. I did worm a little heavy with the sheep drench.


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## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 6, 2014)

Should I move this to another place in order to get more ideas?


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## goatboy1973 (Oct 7, 2014)

Socrates-n-Crew said:


> Pretty sure they are barberpole, but with the worming that we have done, flukes should have been hit as well.  All three vets agree'd that it was barberpole, as well as my not as experienced eye.
> 
> Land.......about 2 acres per goat, 50/50 grass and wooded forage.  Forage is heavily wooded, knee high is about the lowest point, grass is about 7 inches (although we just clipped it pretty short to dry it out more)
> 
> ...


You might  want to dry lot them for 2-3 weeks  after deworming next time you deworm them. You also might try confining them for 24h prior to deworming with no food, just good clean water (this is for any oral drenches only). You might also try the above technique and deworm with a pelleted dewormer like Morantel tartrate. Also look at how your dewormers are stored. Each dewormer has a temperature range to insure that it will remain at its optimal strength. Also check the expiration dates to make sure that you are getting the maximum effectiveness out of your dewormers. Good luck on ridding your herd of these deadly parasites.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2014)

You may want to consider copper levels.
If they are deficient you will see heavier worm loads.
Some regions are high in copper some low.
If your region is low then more often than not loose minerals won't be enough.
I am in a region that is high but I have off the charts high iron in our water, that causes a binding effect on the copper. So I need to give copper on occasion. 

Lespadeza and pine bark are high in tannin these are very good for worm reduction. 

The only other thing I can think of is that there may be an immune issue going on with the two.

I would test for CAE and CL.

Check your county data for copper here...
http://mrdata.usgs.gov/geochem/doc/averages/countydata.htm


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## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 7, 2014)

They are not due for another copper bolus for 2 more months.  Could I go ahead and give it to them this early?

Dry lot for 2 weeks.  I can do that.
Skip feed for a day before worming.  I can do that.  Gonna be alot of drama in the barn, but I can do that.

Not being smart here, but what does CAE and CL have to do with worm loads?


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## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 7, 2014)

copper for my county is 14.8.  IS that considered deficient?


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2014)

CAE and CL both affect the immune system. Not all goats with either of these diseases will respond the same. For some however the diseases can cause ill thrift from the suppressed immune system which opens them up for resistance issues.

Theses are just options for you to look at considering you have at least one that is very special.Sometimes it is a matter of process of elimination. 

It also could be as simple as a bad season and will take time to overcome the affects of the worm loads. 

Since this hasn't been a long term issue it could be as simple as just needing the time to get through it. 
Looking for efficacy in your dewormers is important too. You want to see 95% reduction. EPG counts are important in that regard. If you are not seeing that then another dewormer should be tried.
Sounds like you are working with your vet and that is really a good thing. Hopefully you will find a program that works for you.

As far as the copper... looks like your region is fine. I'd ask your vet about the copper.


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## goatboy1973 (Oct 7, 2014)

SBC has very good advice. Our farm is located in an area low in copper for whatever reason maybe the iron binding issue like SBC has. We give copper boluses to our goats every 6 months and it seems to potentiate the dewormer we use plus it has the added effect of giving our goats shiny coats and more energy. You can also give them human iron pills or prenatal vitamins which are a great remedy for anemia. Molasses is a high source of iron so short term use of sweet feed or a molasses based vitamin supplement like Nutridrench for the recommended time at the recommended dosage may be an option. Other food sources high in iron are dark green veggies like greens and broccoli. The tannins are a great dewormer and are as SBC said are in pine bark and they are also found in the needles. Acorns are also a great source of tannins as well as the Lespediza SBC mentioned. We actually have an overgrown pasture newly fenced that is mostly pine saplings, cedar saplings, and thick patches of Lespediza along with poison ivy, wild multiflora rose, and honeysuckle. I would also make sure your goats have access to a good goat specific loose mineral at all times because goats need the correct amount of trace minerals to help their bodies squeeze the absolute most nutrition out of their daily intake of foodstuffs. You might consult with your local  University Ag Extension agent and local University animal nutrition specialist. Good luck!


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2014)

@goatboy1973  Sea Kelp is a great source for iron and other minerals. It can be found in the equine section. Because it is plant based it is better utilized than the minerals, although not a replacement for minerals. 1 Bucket last for years. LOL


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## Socrates-n-Crew (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks for the information. 

I am so frustrated, please forgive me if I am sounding short, I dont mean it that way.

The last fecal, 2 weeks ago, showed a significant drop in the coccidia levels, and about a 87% drop in worm load.

However, the same two presented with pretty nasty scours tonight.  I am pretty sure the doeling is going to die, but the kiko still looks like wants to fight this, so we'll keep trying.

My next round will be liquid strongid, I guess.  I dose them 3 times, 10 days apart and dry lot them for the 30 days.

that is going to be f.u.n.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2014)

Certainly not taken that way. I think anyone that has goats can understand how frustrating it can be to try and try and do all the "right" things and it still not work.

I must of missed the coccidia before if you mentioned it. 
What was the cocci load like?

I hate to say this but if your doeling dies please get her to your state lab or teaching vet hospital and get a necropsy done. I suspect something else is going on and a full necropsy can provide a lot of answers. Most state labs keep prices down, not all though. 
Not sure where you are located but NC Rollins lab does necropsies for $10-$40.

Sorry you are facing this struggle. Please keep us updated.
I would add Johnes to list of testing. Johnes is a chronic wasting disease.

You may want to read this...
http://www.johnesdisease.org/


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## jodief100 (Oct 8, 2014)

Sounds like your wormers are not working.  Rotating wormers around will make it worse.  Wormers mixed together will work better than the two alone.  I would mix the valbazen and cydecten together and try that.  Ideally I would add Prohibit sheep drench at twice the sheep dosage to the mix and give that.  All three together.  Taking them off feed for 24 hours prior to worming has been proven effective.

Try diMethox for the cocci.  It needs to be for 5 days straight, treat everyone, with or without signs.

I would not dry lot after worming.  You should move them back to whatever pasture they were on prior to worming.  Reason being- worm resistance is a serious problem as you are seeing here.  If you worm a goat and them move it someplace clean, then every worm they drop in that clean area is one that has some resistance to the wormer you just used.  If you move them back to the "dirty"  pasture, the resistance worms they drop will mix with the non-resistant worms already there, delaying wormer resistance.

Heat and wet are a bad combination for worms.  My vet says he has seen a HUGE number of worm problems in small ruminants this summer, much worse than he has ever seen.   We have not had a serious problem this year. That  due to my learning a lot the last few years and loosing a few goats in the process. 

It sounds like you are doing things right, keeping pastures tall, rotating, low stocking rate.  I hope things work out for you and I am very sorry to hear about your doe and these problems you are having.

The worms should not cause scours.  That will be cocci and stress.  Something to stop the scours will be Scour-Chek.  It is labeled for pigs.  1-2 times a day for 5 days.


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## goatboy1973 (Oct 8, 2014)

I use a sulfa based pill for scours. I also use Pepto for severe scours as this usually does the trick for us. Are your goats up to date on their CD&T? The reason I dry lot my goats post deworming for 30 days (only in severe worm infestations) then put them onto a fresh lot is to break the life cycle of the worms. I am a firm believer in rotation of pastures. I had to do the dry lot thing last year for 30 days. I dewormed with Valbazen, waited 2 weeks and then dewormed with Cydectin pour-on, waited 2 more weeks, and then turned them out on a pasture that had never seen a goat and was so thick and overgrown, we didn't see the goats for several days. We didn't need to deworm for nearly a year and this was with rotation of pastures every month and not letting any of the lots get shorter than 5". We still lost a couple of older high % Boer does but the other  non-Boer influenced goats thrived. As some of the others have said, you may have a parasite resistance problem. You may need to change to a different class of dewormer. We swear by pasture rotation, dry lotting post deworming, and strict culling of goats that are "problem children" or chronically anemic or have hoof issues or bad mothers, or other common maladies presented. Our goats are expected to  be very low input and give very high output. This is what the successful goat operations all have in common. We do not starve or neglect any of our goats (they get vaccinated, have free choice minerals @ all times, a small portable barn resides in all of our paddocks, free choice Timothy/ Orchard grass hay in the winter, dewormed only if FAMACHA indicates a deworming is needed, and free choice fresh spring water at all times. I didn't mention hoof trimming because we hardly have any need for this thanks to hard culling years ago for hoof maladies. My advice is to cull, cull, cull and do not breed any doe that is a problem child because this insures that trait will live on in generations to come. I have a pet doe that is my favorite because she was a bottle baby I raised. She has a tendency for hoof problems and passes these genes on to every one of her offspring. Her offspring, male or female, are slaughter animals     every year. Good luck!


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