# Sometimes you learn Something that you wish you hadn't



## ()relics (Dec 3, 2010)

...So recently I "learned" something from "THE EXPERTS", in quotes because I now have my doubts on both statements, that I accepted and applied, without much rational thought on my part.    
     Conventional Wisdom tells us that goat parasites, really all parasites, are developing resistence to our commercially available deworming agents.  Ok...So I am listening.  So Conventional Wisdom/drug companies/vets trained by drug companies/farm stores that sell and bolster the stuff, Lets just say Them, say in order to stop this We, as producers , need to be using this stuff more often and at higher doses.  Ok...makes sense I guess.  Now Them, or to be grammatically correct They, have been pushing "the new way" to deworm, with not one agent but a cocktail of agents, each from a different class, all given at full strength, full strength to be interpreted as What Ever Strength You Feel Comfortable Dosing Just Slightly Below The Fatal Limit, for the goat.  Ok...Enters House DVM, or Me...I think maybe I should try a small clinical trial myself because all this makes sense and these people have been trained to figure this stuff out for Us Idiots, who are too dumb to figure this type of "probelm(?)" out ourselves.  
     herd history:...No parasite problems, closed herd,have Ivo,safeguard and dimeth but seldom use anything...Most of my goats haven't even seen a dewormer this year, but based on a FAMACHA chart, the ones that need it get it.

     the test:...3 does dewormed with Ivomec, .08% @ 3cc/18#, standard dose for my farm.  3 does dosed at the same rate with Ivomec but served in a cocktail form with safeguard dosed at 3X the label, again standard farm dose.  3 does left untreated.  All dosed, or not dosed, 3 days after kidding.  All randomly selected.  All with a FAMACHA score of maybe 3 or better.  

    the results:...After 90 days...the 3 does that were dewormed with Ivomec and the 3 does that were untreated were essentially the same, EPG considered and nearly the same considering Body Score.  Both sets still nursing kids and FAT looking.  Now here is the curveball.  The 3 does that were dosed with the cocktail ...Thin, horrible looking, still nursing kids but wasting away.  EPG= the next thing to 0.  Body condition = the next thing to dead.  I weaned their kids early, yesterday and moved 1 into the barn because she was shivering uncontrollablly, the other 2 are going inside tomorrow.  I have treated all with Probios and put them on a high fat feed ration.

    the conclusion:...THEY are crazy and want to sell more drugs...In My Opinion, based on My own test, 3 of my does went from healthy pasture living goats to thin, nearly dead goats, but almost completely parasite free.....NEVER AGAIN...I'll take the higher EPG and fat goats

    the Moral:...They sit in a lab and think They are bettter trained to do the thinking than We are....I contend They are wrong.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 3, 2010)

:/

Thanks for sharing that experience, it's interesting to say the least.


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## warthog (Dec 3, 2010)

Thank you, being relatively new to goats (18 months) it is always good to learn from other peoples experiences.


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## goodgirlmolly (Dec 3, 2010)

I really like (and my goats & dogs LOVE) 'Molly's Herbal Wormer'.   You can read about it on the Fias-co website - the 'Molly's Herbals' section. It's a 2 part formula, super easy to use & I've had no problems with resistance.


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## ()relics (Dec 3, 2010)

_Edited for content_


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## Roll farms (Dec 3, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Conventional Wisdom tells us that goat parasites, really all parasites, are developing resistence to our commercially available deworming agents.  Ok...So I am listening.  So Conventional Wisdom/drug companies/vets trained by drug companies/farm stores that sell and bolster the stuff, Lets just say Them, say in order to stop this We, as producers , need to be using this stuff more often and at higher doses.


HORSEPUCKY!
Don't drink the KoolAid!  


Internal & External Parasites of Goats
Jim Miller 
Louisiana State University



> The most important aspect of using dewormers is to conserve their effectiveness. This can be achieved by using them as little as possible and only when infection levels dictate that intervention is necessary. The old concepts of treat all animals when a few show signs or all animals at regular intervals (shorter than every 3-4 months) is no longer warranted because it promotes dewormer resistance. Even if new dewormers are discovered and marketed (which is a long way down the line), they should not be used indiscriminately as that is the reason the dewormer resistance problem has evolved.


For the entire article, go here:
http://www2.luresext.edu/goats/training/parasites.html#cont

Personally, I think that should be required reading for ALL goat owners.
Ironically, it also mentions a cocktail...but not ivomec and safeguard.


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## Calliopia (Dec 3, 2010)

Very interesting test.  Thanks for sharing the results.  I have generally wormed based on  FAMACHA combined with overall condition.  I often wonder if there isn't some symbiotic relationship between ruminants and worms.  I know that people who have been through certain intestinal procedures and have Chron's or IBD have had some interesting positive results being treated with parasite therapy.  Maybe a lot of worms is bad but NO worms is worse?  And in the natural setting the worms would serve the function of weeding out the weaker animals. Of course in a meat production setting this is not ideal as you might loose to many animals until you got things running smoothly. 




 (also, just a polite request - let's not turn this post into a herbal vs medicated debate. This is a heated topic that has gotten threads shut down before and I for one would like to hear more discussion on the actual topic)


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## ksalvagno (Dec 3, 2010)

I didn't realize that anyone was saying to worm like that. All the vets in my area are telling us to back off of a regular worming schedule and only worm when necessary. Interesting.

Each farm has to figure out what works for that farm.


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## jodief100 (Dec 3, 2010)

Most of this stuff is "learned" by doing what relics did- try it out and see what happens.  Vets and researchers sometimes just try to draw conclusions because there is not a lot of money for goat research out there.  

I really appreciate it when someone shares this kind of information.  We can make up for the lack of "official" research if we all work together and share results.  

Thank you Relics!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 3, 2010)

Amen to Mr Miller!!!! 

I only use it as needed!! And I check my goats regularly...I have not wormed in over a year!! (Thankfully)  And my goats are healthy and beautiful!!  My vet to recomends "as needed only" as well..which I agree with!!!

Its funny..becuase for a longtime we as a human race got along just fine without all these new medications etc..and we actually surrvied without pharmacuticals companies for a centuries. Just in the last 100 years or so..they make us feel we cant live without em...

Same in any medical advances.  Not all advances, mind you, are problematic...but..buyer beware..cuz there is still the snake oil salesman out there..and you gotta use common sense and intuition too! That goes along way to...dont follow blindly like sheep. As all of us..they wanna make a buck to.. just a little more than most of us... LOL! 

Great posting guys...really good info!!  Thanks!! Important for goat owners to be aware of!!!


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## goodgirlmolly (Dec 3, 2010)

Relics 
 Sorry.  I didn't mean to twist your teat.  
I'll stick to asking the questions from now on.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

The main problem with deworming goats right now is that we wait until animals need it before deworming, and when they come to the point of "needing it," they've been actively contaminating the pasture to which they'll be returned...which means they'll just pick them RIGHT BACK UP.  

Duh.

It's a STUPID way to deworm.

I have a theory on how to go about using one of the barberpole's particular traits as a weakness against it to effectively ERADICATE them **from an entire premises** but every "expert" I've talked to tells me it won't work and they all parrot the advice that I should use FAMACHA, fecals, spot deworm, etc..

...yet, they're all interested in hearing how putting my theory into practice goes for me, should I elect to do it...

Hmm..  

:/

So, on the one hand, YES...I agree with Relics() that most of the 'experts' are actually 'morons,' but NO...I don't think we're being advised to use higher doses because they want us to spend more money.  I think we're being advised to use higher doses because higher doses *work* where lower doses don't, and I think that's because we've been advised very, very poorly by these so-called 'experts'...which is why we have the resistance issues we have.


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## ()relics (Dec 7, 2010)

this test came directly from the "town hall meetings"...all the information was provided by major agricultural universities.  So This Is the way THEY say to go about the initial fecal egg reduction portion of the ultimate management of parasites.   They do suggest to double and triple doses, but are quick to say they are not vets, to reduce fecal egg counts.  They also suggest that if you are not getting results that fall into "acceptable ranges", you should Up Your Dose " As Needed", for effect.... 
   Based on my experience and others ,with more letters behind their names, the best time to deworm a doe is 3-7 days after kidding, as this is the time in her "cycle" that she is the weakest and most prone to an overload.  Deworming borderlined does reduces your "on the ground" oocyst load, by interferring with the parasites lifecycle, again while the parasite has some leverage with the doe. 
   In my case deworming is essentially not needed at all because of my VERY low epg average in my herd.  But I wanted to start with a control group, to see the effects of This specific management tool...Again in my case,  extreme management is not needed but I now do have a control group that I can monitor to watch for "blooms", based on an average from the 3 different groups.  
  To follow-up;  the 3 does that seemed to be "sick" have rebounded and are fattening up, with some extra feed, top dressed with Opti-zyme, and Probios. EPG=0


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## cmjust0 (Dec 7, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> To follow-up;  the 3 does that seemed to be "sick" have rebounded and are fattening up, with some extra feed, top dressed with Opti-zyme, and Probios. EPG=0


When was the last epg obtained?


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## Nifty (Dec 8, 2010)

Closed at the request of the OP.


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