# Bottle Jaw



## newbiekat (Mar 23, 2014)

I believe I have a goat that has bottle jaw, and from what I am reading, it sounds like anemia as well, due to an overload of worms. From what I understand, anemia takes a long time to get over... My little Chunk, started with a small lump under her jaw that would go away, then come back by evening. It now seems like it has gotten worse. It's not going away, she's waking up with it, and I'm getting worried. She has kind of distanced herself from the herd, (still browses in the pasture), she doesn't seem to be losing weight (still in pretty good condition since she kidded her twins 5 wks ago), her hair doesn't seem any rougher than normal winter coats go...   I guess another thing that might contribute to this, is that around the same time that this came up, we sold her partner in crime, so I think she may be partially depressed from that also. 

We have loose minerals available all the time free choice and they have a bale of hay out all the time (but seems like they have been choosing to browse lately, I'm assuming because it's been greening up a little out there)

Here's what we have done, if anyone has any suggestions PLEASE let me know. I don't want to lose her, she's my baby.
- We have begun feeding her as much alfalfa as she will eat, morning and night (browse all day)
- We wormed her with Safeguard (double dose) a week ago, and then Ivermec (oral) yesterday
- Have been giving her B12 daily since Thursday when we found the first lump
- Pig iron 100 (Duracet) 2cc on Thursday, Saturday, will again on Monday and then again Wednesday, then plan to once a week after that

The only other thing I have read to do is give her Red Cell. But from what I'm reading it seems like that is a last resort, if the goat is on their death bed type thing, is that true? Also, that Red Cell doesn't help the goat BUILD Red Cells, it only gives them a spurt of it at the time, and the Iron is supposed to help her build Red Cells...  Any ideas? I saw Southern's thread about anemia a while ago, but I don't see if there is anything else I should be doing. I'm just worried because the lump seems to be getting bigger.


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## Tiss (Mar 23, 2014)

I did exactly what you're doing for my doe who had bottle jaw last summer. I did not use red cell. My doe recovered just fine. I would worm your girl again with Ivomec after 10 days.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 23, 2014)

Sounds like you are doing all you can, I do think it would be a good idea to run this by your vet and see if there is anything else he/she suggests. 

If she has flukes the ivermec won't do anything. The ivermec plus is what I'd be using. Just in case it is flukes. 

Sea kelp is great for building up iron and a great nutritional source, it can be added to loose minerals.
She needs some  probiotics with being it hard with the de-wormers.

Here is a recipe for "oatmeal balls"
cook up 2 cups (dry) oatmeal, add 2Tbl molasses, add 1/2-1 Tbl kelp. It should be thick before you add the other ingredients to it, roll them up into balls, give a few 2x daily for several days. We store in the fridge but warm it up when we give it.
You can add the probio's too but I would give the probios through a syringe orally (mixed into water) for now.

If your goat has never had molasses or sweet feed then she probably won't eat it.

This is the kelp we use, it is in the equine section at SS. Sorry didn't have time to crop out the minerals. LOL


 

Also if the kids are 5 weeks I would be running a fecal to check their counts and also look for cocci.
Good luck. 
Let us know how it goes with her.


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## newbiekat (Mar 23, 2014)

Tiss- How long did it take for your girl to recover last year? Just so I have an idea of what I'm looking at for recovery time...

Southern- What are flukes? Should we worm with ivomec plus all the time and just forget the regular ivomec then?

Sea kelp... Thats a good idea I might see if I can find some. Thanks...  What about the alfalfa, is that doing anything? Also we have rolled corn, and beet pulp, would either of those help?

How much Sea Kelp would you add to the minerals?

For the oatmeal balls, do I cook the oatmeal with the molasses or just mix them together in a bowl?

Thanks for the tip about running fecals. I will try to do that this week.

I will keep you guys posted! Thanks so much for your help!!


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 23, 2014)

I've used that Manna Pro Mineral that 'Southern by Choice' had pictured, it works pretty well. I've also used a probiotic powder that you can find at any COOP or Tractor Supply.
I would take this goat out at feeding time and put 1/3 to 1/2 can of cheap snuff tobacco in her feed. In my opinion that is the BEST wormer you can buy!

That would probably do the trick and in a few weeks she'd look like her old self, if she starts getting thin I'd give her an oral drench of Cydectin to dispose of any gut worms she might have.


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## taylorm17 (Mar 23, 2014)

All sounds like good suggestions. I also use the goat minerals Southern has posted above and our goats are doing very well as of now  no jinxing myself. haha. Hope she gets better.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 23, 2014)

There are different kinds of flukes but flukes attached themselves and cause severe anemia. Snails are the intermediary host. If you have snails you have a high probability of flukes. Some flukes are difficult to identify under a microscope, although you can if you understand the size of the egg. Some flukes are easily identifiable.
The sad thing about this is many vets will say "oh, your not in a fluke area". Flukes really are everywhere. I will see if I can find some links for you. I have them just need to find them- DH re-did my computer and I can't find anything.

Because of the bottle-jaw I would go with the hard stuff. Ivermectin plus is very good IMO. I know others use different products. I have no experience with any wormers other than ivermectin, ivermectin plus, and safeguard. For cocci I like toltrazuril. I am a less is best kinda person.

The kelp is a great source of iron, so is blackstrap molasses. This will help with anemia. To add to minerals 1 Tbl to 1 cup of minerals. We are extremely high in iron here... to the point of toxic levels so we can no longer add the sea-kelp but we will use it if there is a need... generally to a doe before kidding for a few days and again after kidding for a few days in the oatmeal ball recipe.

Cook the oatmeal up first, wait til it sets and thickens then add the molasses and kelp and probios.

She needs the probios for the gut.

We have never had bottlejaw but I know of a few people that have... from their experiences they saw a reduction within a few days. Sorry I am not much help here.

You may want to check out @elevan articles... she has a wealth of info and probably has something on bottlejaw. She wrote "Goatnotes".  A great resource every goat owner should have on hand.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 23, 2014)

Here is one link-

http://goat-link.com/content/view/152/#.Uy9gC_ldWt9


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## newbiekat (Mar 23, 2014)

I have been using the golden blend minerals...



> The sad thing about this is many vets will say "oh, your not in a fluke area".


Great... I dont have the best goat vet anyways, so that'll be a lovely conversation... I may just reworm her with ivo plus in 10 days if nothing has improved...



> The kelp is a great source of iron, so is blackstrap molasses


Where can I find blackstrap molasses? I found regular molasses at Walmart... Will that do?



> Tbl to 1 cup of minerals


Perfect. Thanks. I just ordered some from ValleyVet, my local farm store didnt have it 



> Cook the oatmeal up first, wait til it sets and thickens then add the molasses and kelp and probios


Awesome. Thank you! Once I get that order of Sea Kelp I will make those right away!

Thanks for the link! I will definitely check it out!


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## Southern by choice (Mar 23, 2014)

Your welcome 

and the regular molasses is what I would recommend because the kelp is high in iron. Blackstrap Molasses is very high in iron so I think that is too much all together. JMO

As far as treatment... if it is flukes the key factor here is giving the ivermec plus in 3 doses. Each 10 days apart. It will only kill off adult stage so it must be 3 doses.


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## Tiss (Mar 24, 2014)

It probably took about 5 days for the bottle jaw to go down. A good month or so until she stopped looking so ragged.


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 24, 2014)

Use Cydectin. Ivomec just about doesn't work anymore. Most worms are resistant. Good Luck!


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## Southern by choice (Mar 24, 2014)

Ivermectin and fenbendazole work here fine. I think it depends as much on the resistance of your herd though. Last fall we did a one time only across the board deworming, even though the majority of our goats had low counts we had a few sneaking up in numbers. After the 2012-2013 9 months of rain by fall of 2013 we decided to do the "across the board" (dairy goats) My does were all going to be bred over a period of time and felt it was best for that season. It was the *first* time the majority of my goats had ever had a dewormer. I run my own fecals and use the McMAsters Method. 
Worked fine for us. I think those that have chronic worm issues may find the above mentioned to not be very effective. 

Just about every breeder I know uses the fenbendazole without issue, but these are also herds with very little parasite issues anyway. I am not convinced it is a region issue but an individual herd issue.


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## newbiekat (Mar 24, 2014)

I have had my girls  2 years now. I have wormed all of them once, and I believe two of them twice (possibly 3 times). This one that has the bottle jaw now has been wormed twice since she entered my herd in June of '12. She also is the only one that got mites last winter, and now the only one (so far) that has had this bottle jaw. I tend to wonder if there's something up with her... She was only 6 mos old or so when I got her.


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## elevan (Mar 24, 2014)

newbiekat said:


> I tend to wonder if there's something up with her... She was only 6 mos old or so when I got her.


I would wonder if she had a bout with coccidia at any point?  If not caught timely or not treated effectively it can cause a goat to be a poor do-er and more susceptible to other issues.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 24, 2014)

When you first got her did you do a quarantine and run fecals for counts? All goats have a minimum 30 day quarantine. We run a fecal within a few days of them coming as to allow a bit of a bloom if there will be one. Run for and EPG count ... if parasites then those are targeted. We repeat fecals and monitor the reduction A) to see the effectiveness of the wormer and B) to continue the program to ensure they are "clean" and have a consistant 0 count. 

This way we can target if we find a goat to not be particularly hardy.


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## newbiekat (Mar 25, 2014)

Elevan- That's a good point, I dont know. She seemed fairly healthy when we bought her...

Southern- We did not... We don't quite have the set up for a quarrantine area... I know that's not so good on our part, but we didn't. Wish we had the space for stuff like that!  I do know that I have a younger one that is pretty prone to sickness, clumsiness, worms, etc. So we may breed her once and then she might have to hit the road. It's too much trouble having to take care of all of that!

Also, my Sea Kelp should be arriving in the mail this afternoon so I will make the oatmeal balls tonight! I hope it works!! Poor girl.


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## newbiekat (Mar 25, 2014)

Ok, so I have made the oatmeal balls.. Does one 2 cup serving of oatmeal make ONE ball? Do I give the entire ball to one goat? Or split it into several?

Also, how do I dose Probiotics? I have the Probios Max Gel... It says 10 gm but how do I dose that? In a drencher? Mix it with water?


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## M.L. McKnight (Mar 25, 2014)

I don't know about the oatmeal balls but 2c sounds like it should do more than one goat.

If your probiotics is in gel form, I'd imagine that you're supposed to squirt it directly in their mouth. I use a probiotic powder and top their feed with it.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 25, 2014)

newbiekat said:


> Ok, so I have made the oatmeal balls.. Does one 2 cup serving of oatmeal make ONE ball? Do I give the entire ball to one goat? Or split it into several?
> 
> Also, how do I dose Probiotics? I have the Probios Max Gel... It says 10 gm but how do I dose that? In a drencher? Mix it with water?



That recipe will last for days. Keep it refrigerated and take out what you need, warm in the microwave. 
The balls should be larger than a golfball, give 1-2 am and 1-2 pm... whatever she will take. I would add the gel probios right into the balls. 

If you have any cattle or hog panels that would be enough to keep her more in a dry lot situation.  Keeping her from feeding on the ground is best and also this way she isn't dumping all these eggs onto the pasture. 

I know, sometimes there are just limitations and you can just do what you can do.  Something you may want to save up for/consider for future.

Btw- how is her copper levels? Making sure they have proper levels also helps with parasites. Do you know if you are in a deficient area?


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 25, 2014)

newbiekat said:


> I have had my girls  2 years now. I have wormed all of them once, and I believe two of them twice (possibly 3 times). This one that has the bottle jaw now has been wormed twice since she entered my herd in June of '12. She also is the only one that got mites last winter, and now the only one (so far) that has had this bottle jaw. I tend to wonder if there's something up with her... She was only 6 mos old or so when I got her.


Maybe you should look at culling her. Parasite resistance can be a highly heritable trait. If you breed her there's a moderate chance her offspring will be ill adapted at resisting internal parasites also. Structural correctness, great pedigrees, perfect breed phenotype,  and high yielding production and all other desirable traits have their place; however, if a producer has to continually battle parasites, how    valuable is this animal in regards to productivity, and why would a producer want to add these genetics to the respective breed? If this a pet, different story, but if this is a registered animal would it be an injustice to breed this animal and either add or perpetuate such maladaptive genetics all in the name of selling a great blood line?


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## newbiekat (Mar 25, 2014)

Ha, that makes complete sense now that I see them. I made them a little bigger than golf balls. I wrapped them in sweet feed, and then left it. She went back and forth between the sweet feed and the alfalfa for a while, and seemed to pick around the oatmeal ball. I left her for a little while, came back and it was gone!  The lump seems smaller today... Don't know if that's being optimistic or what, I hope it really is getting smaller! 

I didn't put the Probios into the ball, I got her to take it... not without a fight of course!

Dry lot... hmm....  I do have a little area that I try to do my own separation type thing... I can do that... Would putting her alone cause her more stress? Also, would it be such a good idea to put her baby in with her?

Copper.. hmm... I have no idea honestly. How would I find that out? I am feeding them Golden Blend minerals. According to the label it looks like its got 8-12 ppm of Copper?

I plan on adding the kelp to the minerals once they finish off what they've got now.


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## newbiekat (Mar 25, 2014)

Goatboy- I see your point and you're probably right, it all makes sense... but she really is my pet. We raise Registered Nubians, and she is a boer... with terrible teats... and apparently, now, this poor resistance to parasites... but... she's my baby... I don't plan on keeping any of her offspring, but she has been a good mother so far, and a sweetheart of a goat... DH tells me we should get rid of her, but I have a hard time doing it... I just want her to live fat and happy in my pasture...


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 25, 2014)

Southern by choice said:


> When you first got her did you do a quarantine and run fecals for counts? All goats have a minimum 30 day quarantine. We run a fecal within a few days of them coming as to allow a bit of a bloom if there will be one. Run for and EPG count ... if parasites then those are targeted. We repeat fecals and monitor the reduction A) to see the effectiveness of the wormer and B) to continue the program to ensure they are "clean" and have a consistant 0 count.
> 
> This way we can target if we find a goat to not be particularly hardy.


We also do a quarantine. We vaccinate, deworm, hoof trim, etc...  any new animal to the herd as if this has never been done to the animal (we never take anyone's word for anything; been burnt too many times before). The stress of transporting alone, not to mention the interruption of regular activities of daily living, and change of surrounding and adjustment of pecking order within a herd by introducing a new member can cause an exacerbation of internal parasites and general lower threshold of immunity for the animal. For this very reason, we choose to deworm along with re-vaccinating and all other animal health precautions. A parasite load can look within normal range on a fecal but they can drastically increase in an animal that is dealing with the stress of adjustment to a new home.


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 25, 2014)

newbiekat said:


> Goatboy- I see your point and you're probably right, it all makes sense... but she really is my pet. We raise Registered Nubians, and she is a boer... with terrible teats... and apparently, now, this poor resistance to parasites... but... she's my baby... I don't plan on keeping any of her offspring, but she has been a good mother so far, and a sweetheart of a goat... DH tells me we should get rid of her, but I have a hard time doing it... I just want her to live fat and happy in my pasture...


I have one such goat in my herd named Miracle. She was born on my farm and will take her last breath on my farm. I had a long winded post about her a few months back. I thought she was frozen to death just after being born to a very young momma that was not even supposed to be bred and never showed 1 sign of pregnancy. Momma and her twin sister died during birth and I had the hole dug to bury all 3 goats and then noticed Miracle blink her eyes. Long story short my Nursing/ EMT skills kicked in and I set up an ICU/ nursery in my basement and with warm IV's, stomach tubing colostrum, and initial round of cardiac drugs (expired human epinephrine and atropine), managed to save her and now she is 8 yrs. old and produced nearly 17 kids to date and due to kid twins any day now. She has been problematic with her hooves and parasite resistance, bullies all the other goats, unlatches gates with her horns, and has kids that share her same faults. She is the biggest pet though and is a very good mother, and produces bunches of milk. All her kids have either been sold as pets or meat kids but never breeding stock. Miracle is like our ambassador as she greets all human visitors. Every farm needs a "Miracle".


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## newbiekat (Mar 27, 2014)

Well guys... It looks like her lump is COMPLETELY GONE!! 

Yesterday was her last iron shot for the every other day routine. I was going to give her another iron shot next week... Do I still need to? Also, what about the B12? How long should I keep giving that? And how long should I give her the oatmeal balls?

Oh! And what about the Ivermectin Plus? I gave the first dose of regular Ivermectin on Saturday, so should I give three more doses of the Plus or just two more?


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 28, 2014)

I would continue with all meds for the determined amount of time. This is like a bacterial infection in that if you quit the full regimen of antibiotic when you feel better, only the weak bacteria are killed and the more serious bacteria are still active and if they multiply you get what's called a superinfection. Same goes with the internal parasites (worms). If it were my animal I would go ahead and give the Ivomec, the iron, the B-12 etc... You need to make sure as many parasites are eliminated and as much of RBC building meds are given to give your animal the best chances of bouncing back from this condition. Good luck!


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 29, 2014)

newbiekat said:


> Well guys... It looks like her lump is COMPLETELY GONE!!
> 
> Yesterday was her last iron shot for the every other day routine. I was going to give her another iron shot next week... Do I still need to? Also, what about the B12? How long should I keep giving that? And how long should I give her the oatmeal balls?
> 
> Oh! And what about the Ivermectin Plus? I gave the first dose of regular Ivermectin on Saturday, so should I give three more doses of the Plus or just two more?


I forgot to add, congrats on getting her through the bottle jaw.Newbiekat, the iron and B-12 kinda work together to help her build her blood components back up, namely the RBC (red blood cells). The RBC's carry oxygen throughout the body. Oxygen is attracted to the iron in the blood and B-12 helps in the production of RBC's. B-12 is also a good source of energy so you could give her this on a bi-weekly or weekly basis indefinitely without worrying about an overdose because the body excretes through the urine what it doesn't use of the B-12. Some humans (elderly) get prescribed B-12 every 2 weeks on a continual basis. So, if she is an older goat, and prone to getting parasite infestations, you might consider a monthly or every 2 week dose of B-12 just as a preventative measure.


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## newbiekat (Mar 29, 2014)

Awesome. Thank you so much!

Just to clarify, the Ivermectin Plus... Should I give two more doses, or three being the first dose was the regular Ivermectin?


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## goatboy1973 (Mar 31, 2014)

If it were my goat, I would give give her 2 more doses and see what her fecal or her FAMACHA looks like. The only difference in the regular Ivomec and the Ivomec Plus is the addition of Clorsulon which kills liver flukes and the Clorsulon is shown to be not very effective when administering to caprines (goats). Liver flukes are usually only a problem in the Deep South though.


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