# Which Breed Is Better For Me??



## Dolly1218 (Feb 3, 2012)

Hello everyone,
I am still in the beggining stages of getting my herd together. But I do know I will need a LGD. Im currently in Colorado where we have coyotes, bears, cougars, wolves, seems like just about everything! I will be moving to Maine soon, which I believe have the same predators.. I will have a herd of goats, sheep, yak, ducks, and chickens. Ive researched a lot of different breeds of dogs for the right guard and would like opinions from people that own them. The three breeds Im considering is Caucasian Ovcharka, Boz Shepherd, and Kurdish Kangal. I know their temperments and I have owned dogs of various breeds my entire life, Im just new to LGD. Your opinions on which breed is right for the territory and livestock is greatly appreciated. Thanks!!


----------



## autumnprairie (Feb 3, 2012)

Dolly1218 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> I am still in the beggining stages of getting my herd together. But I do know I will need a LGD. Im currently in Colorado where we have coyotes, bears, cougars, wolves, seems like just about everything! I will be moving to Maine soon, which I believe have the same predators.. I will have a herd of goats, sheep, yak, ducks, and chickens. Ive researched a lot of different breeds of dogs for the right guard and would like opinions from people that own them. The three breeds Im considering is Caucasian Ovcharka, Boz Shepherd, and Kurdish Kangal. I know their temperments and I have owned dogs of various breeds my entire life, Im just new to LGD. Your opinions on which breed is right for the territory and livestock is greatly appreciated. Thanks!!


not to be nosey but where in Maine because their weather is completely different depending on where you live when I lived in Buxton near Portland it was 10  degrees warmer than where my Mom lives, near Acadia Park. I personally would get a Caucasian Ovcharka because of the similiarity of weather between Maine and the Soviet Union.
I dont know what the breed is like though this is where I was reading about them though http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/caucasianowtcharka.htm 
I love the looks of the BOZ 
hope this helps


----------



## Grazer (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi Dolly, 

I own a Caucasian Ovcharka myself and they are not a breed for everyone.
If you've never owned a LGD before, then you might have a lot of difficulties with this breed.
They require a minimum of a 6ft fencing and they are very territorial and protective.
Unlike most other LGD breeds, they are often very human aggressive because a lot of Caucasian Ovcharka lines were/are used for Soviet/Russian military program.
And that is a lot of liability for most people.

In my opinion, any LGD breed that has been used for military purposes in recent past or that's still used for those purposes is not a good breed for first time LGD owner.
With that said, there are not many people in general who use their CO's as LGD's in U.S. or in the rest of the world for that matter; they are usually property guardian dogs.
What I'm trying to say is that best LGD's come from working parents and there a lot of Kangal breeders that raise their dogs & puppies as future LGD's.


Kangal puppies from working parents are also much easier to find..
As for Boz Shepherds,  MonsterMalak from monstermalak.com who also posts here, has a Boz Shepherd kennel and he can tell you all about this breed.


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 3, 2012)

autumnprairie said:
			
		

> Dolly1218 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Crystal, Maine.. And thats where I started my research lol


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 3, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Hi Dolly,
> 
> I own a Caucasian Ovcharka myself and they are not a breed for everyone.
> If you've never owned a LGD before, then you might have a lot of difficulties with this breed.
> ...


Thank you. I didnt know they were human aggressive. A breeder I was talking to said if they get socialized and trained from puppyhood and is continued throughout their life they would be ok. She has sheep that the COs watch.. Do you use your CO as a LGD or a house guard? Ive read that they are very territorial and protective, but can they tell the difference between friend and foe? I had a rottweiler a very long time ago and she was a sweet angel to everyone unless someone/animal threatened us.


----------



## Grazer (Feb 3, 2012)

Yes they are known for being very human aggressive. In Russia they even use them as prison/military guard dogs.
And up until the Berlin wall fall, they were also used by then East Germany military as patrol dogs. They were very feared back then.
I'm surprised the breeder you talked to didn't mention that part...
Ours is (besides being a family member lol) a house guard dog.
He's also not an American bred CO

When they are outside their property they are very aloof with strangers, but they will become very protective if they feel that their owner is being threatened.
Inside their own property, most CO's will tolerate the guests you invite, but not all.
Some male CO's will not tolerate any guests, even if they've been socialized properly.
But for the most part CO's will act as if they're not interested in your guests, while keeping a close eye on them. Although some females can be less aloof.
Still, never leave your adult CO (whether it's a male or a female) with your guests unattended. 

They're incredibly affectionate towards their family and it seems (to me at least) that they can really tell when someone is closely related to you, even if they do not live with you. If that makes any sense lol
As far as telling the difference between friend or foe...all true CO's will not let anyone who's not part of their "pack" in.

Socializing CO's needs to be done gradually and kept as positive as possible....as some things can traumatize them. They don't like large crowds or noisy places.
I personally would not over socialize them, but that's just me.


----------



## Grazer (Feb 3, 2012)

I also forgot to add that the fact they're like all LGD's independent thinkers and that they will not always listen.
They will act when they think it's necessary...
For thousands of years, the herdsmen in the mountains of Caucasus would leave them for months all by themselves to guard livestock; they would only occasionally bring them food.
And only the strongest CO's would survive.
Up until 100-200 years, there has been very little human intervention in their breeding process.
Often, CO's are described as the most aggressive natural guard dog bred in domesticity.

For unprepared owners they can be very stubborn and they will challenge you. I've known of many unprepared CO owners who ended up being mauled themselves by their own dog or their family members getting attacked.
So they got rid of the dog, when in fact they were at fault for not doing their homework thoroughly before getting a CO.
As I said this breed will challenge you....mostly between 8 and 18 months of age.
Now if you are as an owner consistent, consequent, confident and assertive with the puppy from the start (without ever punishing them physically but that speaks for itself of course), they will challenge you a lot less.
And of course if you don't get the most dominant puppy, it will be less challenging for you as the owner too.
CO's the type of breed that is very pack oriented and will try to take over the household if they sense that you are "weak" as an owner.


----------



## Beekissed (Feb 3, 2012)

I know this wasn't one of your choices, but I like the sound of the Maremma breed and they were known for fending off wolves in their native lands.  They also are supposedly more attached to their flocks than the GPs and don't wander off as easily.  If I get another LGD breed, I think I'll try the Maremmas.


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 3, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> I also forgot to add that the fact they're like all LGD's independent thinkers and that they will not always listen.
> They will act when they think it's necessary...
> For thousands of years, the herdsmen in the mountains of Caucasus would leave them for months all by themselves to guard livestock; they would only occasionally bring them food.
> And only the strongest CO's would survive.
> ...


Wow. The breeder didnt mention any of this information to me. I also didnt read any of this on any breed pages I found. But what would you consider being prepared for this breed? I absolutely love these dogs and have since I was very little and I would love to have one or more, but I am Not the type of person to go get one and figure it out later. I do all my research and with a breed that is so large and dominant I definetly want to be prepared. Do you think I should start with a different LGD breed? The more I hear I think maybe the CO should be our house guard rather then a LGD.. I would love some more detailed information from you if you have the time


----------



## autumnprairie (Feb 3, 2012)

you are really going to be up there aren't you, Can you say freeze your butt off. Silk long johns are the warmest for sure


----------



## Grazer (Feb 3, 2012)

Hi again Dolly,

I'm honestly surprised the breeder didn't tell you any of that.
I mean I'm sure that CO's bred in U.S. may be more mellow, but still...

 In Finland they made a movie about Caucasian Ovcharka and its past as a military dog.
The movie is called Stormheart and it does have English subs, but the movie itself is very hard to find


Anyway, here's how they describe CO on AKC's website: _The Caucasian Ovcharka is indigenous to the mountain regions of the Georgian, Armenian and Azerbaijani Union Republics; the Kabardino-Balkar, Daghestan and Kalmyk Autonomous Republics, and the steppe regions of the northern Caucasus and the Astrakhan district. For hundreds of years the Caucasian Ovcharka (Mountain Dog) has functioned as a guarding dog, herding dog, and historically as a fighting dog. Their faithfulness, protectiveness, and ferocity when called upon to defend is legendary._

And this info is from dogster.com: _The Caucasian Ovcharka is one of the oldest surviving Molossers, originating in the Caucasus Mountains between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Used to guard flocks, the Ovcharka (also known as the Caucasian Mountain Dog) was a formidable guard against predators, trespassers and thieves. Its strength and loyalty has made it a popular working dog, police dog and companion throughout Europe and the Soviet Union._

Well I personally think that if you won't have a minimum of a 6ft fence all around your livestock, then getting a less human aggressive LGD would be a better option to work with.
You know how things work here in U.S....if your dog gets out and bites someone, your dog gets put down, you get sued etc..

A Great Pyrenees is often recommended for first time LGD owners who want a great non human aggressive farm dog. 

I've loved CO's from when I was little too, but being that I was born in Eastern Europe I've always known about their temperament 
To me they are the best breed in the world but only for people who have had plenty of experience with other molosser/LGD breeds

Feel free to ask me any questions you still have, I do hope I'll be of some help.


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 5, 2012)

autumnprairie said:
			
		

> you are really going to be up there aren't you, Can you say freeze your butt off. Silk long johns are the warmest for sure


Oh yes! But I love the cold!


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 5, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Hi again Dolly,
> 
> I'm honestly surprised the breeder didn't tell you any of that.
> I mean I'm sure that CO's bred in U.S. may be more mellow, but still...
> ...


I will look that movie up  Im am not a big fan of the Great Pyrenees, Ive been hearing they get eaten by wolf packs easily... You are amazing help by the way!!


----------



## Grazer (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you, that's nice to hear! 
I'm very passionate about CO's 

The movie Stormheart is called Myrsky in Finnish. I'm pretty sure they sell it in Amazone.com, but just so you know the acting isn't very good lol
Still the background info the movie provides about CO's is pretty accurate and really helpful to someone who doesn't know that much about the breed yet.

I've heard the same thing about Great Pyr's....I've never had one, especially not as a LGD, so I don't know how well they do against attacks from large predators.

Dogs like for instance Sarplaninac, Tornjak, Anatolian Shepherd/Kangal, Maremma are very successful against large predators in their native land and are often much less human aggressive than CO's.
But of course the wolves in Europe are somewhat smaller than the wolves found in N. America

Btw, if you do decide to get a CO puppy, don't forget to post lots and lots of pictures!


----------



## autumnprairie (Feb 6, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Btw, if you do decide to get a CO puppy, don't forget to post lots and lots of pictures!


I second the pictures part. 
I know that you are moving way up in Maine and Bears and others are up there too keep in mind that moose hate dogs and will stomp to death given the chance too. Are you going to have lots of neighbors or a place set off by yourself a bit? How socialized do you want your dog. Grazer has made me think twice before recommending a breed that I don't know much about and for that I thank you Grazer. Just because and animal does well in the cold over others doesn't mean it is always the best fit. I am still researching for you though


----------



## Grazer (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks autumnprairie 
Those are really good questions for any beginning LGD owner.
I forgot to mention the Pyrenean Mastiff; these dogs are in general taller and heavier than CO's and they do just as good in cold weather.
From what I understand although they are suspicious of strangers, they don't react until their family/flock is actually threatened by an outsider. 
There is this one breeder (**********, I believe she posts here as well); and she has had some really good results with this breed.
And I think it speaks for itself that all LGD breeds only respect and follow an owner who is consistent, strong and assertive.

Site reference removed by moderator.


----------



## 77Herford (Feb 6, 2012)

There are rather good quizes out there to determine the right dog for you.

http://animal.discovery.com/breed-selector/dog-breeds.html


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 6, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Thank you, that's nice to hear!
> I'm very passionate about CO's
> 
> The movie Stormheart is called Myrsky in Finnish. I'm pretty sure they sell it in Amazone.com, but just so you know the acting isn't very good lol
> ...


Lol then the movie will keep my attention if its bad acting it will be a little funny!  Im still researching (in my free time) about the COs, Boz Shepherds, Kangals, and Anatolian shepherds. Its hard for me to compare them all because I love and want a CO so much!


----------



## Beekissed (Feb 6, 2012)

77Herford said:
			
		

> There are rather good quizes out there to determine the right dog for you.
> 
> http://animal.discovery.com/breed-selector/dog-breeds.html


The quiz said I needed an Akita!     I wouldn't have one of those if someone offered it free with a fancy collar and a year's supply of dog food....


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 6, 2012)

autumnprairie said:
			
		

> Grazer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will post pictures of everyone on the ranch, Im a pictures fein!!  In Colorado we have a lot of deer, bears, wolves, and coyotes. I didnt know moose would go after a dog. Im going to be on about 80 acres maybe more. I am house hunting this summer, and hopefully going to move later this year or next summer. Well I want my dog(s) to be socialized, I go to the Farmers Market weekly and want to take 1 with me (rotating between each dog), plus I have family that will visit a lot, and my kids' friends when they are older, along with customers coming to my farm to pick up their milk or chicks. I know COs are territorial so maybe if I get one he can guard the house and Ill have a different breed out in the field..?


EVERYONE: I know I need a very large dog, would I need more then 2? Is it possible and how hard is it to incorporaite more LGD as my flock grows?


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 6, 2012)

77Herford said:
			
		

> There are rather good quizes out there to determine the right dog for you.
> 
> http://animal.discovery.com/breed-selector/dog-breeds.html


It says I need a Belgian Malinois! I dont think he will protect the flock so much as herding it around!


----------



## autumnprairie (Feb 6, 2012)

Dolly1218 said:
			
		

> autumnprairie said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what about a Pyrenean Mastiff grazer noted earlier been looking at them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenean_Mastiff


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 6, 2012)

I read somewhere that they slobber and arent a dry mouth dog. Also that they have droopy eyes that need to be watched and taken care of regularly.. They are very pretty and large but Im a little worried about their up keep..


----------



## Grazer (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes Pyrenean Mastiffs will drool in hot weather, when they're excited or when they are around food.
But even though it says in the standard that CO's don't drool, in real life you'll notice that they do drool somewhat when it's hot or if you're eating something really tasty and you don't want to share lol
I would say that all molossers drool to some extent.

Ive never raised a live stock; so I can't say that much....But in case you haven't seen this website before.... I'd recommend it, as it has some really good information: http://www.lgd.org/
I do know that almost every farmer with a large predator problem will tell you that you need more than just 2 dogs.
You could start best with 1 male and 2 females and then take it from there.
I don't know how big your herd is going to be, but maybe you could get adult LGD's that are already proven to be effective against large predators.
Since I'm not an expert, I hope someone from this site that actually does have a lot of experience out in the field, will give you some really good tips.

As for CO's.....it sounds like you'll have a lot of people coming over to your place and as I said before they are usually very protective & territorial.
Mine started with just 6 months. 
They can be quite dangerous for strangers.
There are CO's out there who'll tolerate strangers if the owner says it's ok and then there are CO's who even though they've been properly socialized will go nuts every time you have people over.
I guess it depends their lineages.. 
I'm sure a good CO breeder will either help you find the right puppy for your situation or advise you to get a different breed.


----------



## Dolly1218 (Feb 7, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Yes Pyrenean Mastiffs will drool in hot weather, when they're excited or when they are around food.
> But even though it says in the standard that CO's don't drool, in real life you'll notice that they do drool somewhat when it's hot or if you're eating something really tasty and you don't want to share lol
> I would say that all molossers drool to some extent.
> 
> ...


Well maybe a CO isnt right for my current situation, maybe someday I will be able to get one  Thank you for all your advice, you were such a great help!! Ill post about my other questions (like how many dogs) and hopefully more people will answer.


----------



## Grazer (Feb 7, 2012)

You're most welcome Dolly!
A good CO breeder is hard to find in U.S. being that it's a rare breed and all and I used to think for a while that there are no good CO breeders.
But the 2 breeders in Montana seem to know what they're doing.
I can PM you their names if you don't have it. Maybe there's a solution they can come up with for you, so you can have the breed you've always wanted to have.
I personally always tell people that if they'll have a lot of guests (and customers in your case) over and no special area to put their CO at, it's probably not the right breed for them.
I don't have children, but I've been told that CO's should not be in the same room with its owners kids and unfamiliar children, as it may attack those unfamiliar children if the game becomes too rough.
When I asked the breeder from whom I got my puppy about the interaction between his dogs and his children, he told me that his CO's are incredibly affectionate with his kids but do not obey orders from his children.
And I've heard that a lot....that's why a lot of breeders advise future CO owners not to let kids younger than 16-17 years walk their CO's.

But anyway, I think you should definitely discuss all that with the breeder of your choice and the ones in Montana seem to be good breeders.
I've never met them in person, but I did talk to them through e-mail several times.


Good luck and I hope you'll find really good LGD's, cause it really makes a huge difference!


----------



## 77Herford (Feb 7, 2012)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> 77Herford said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, I did the test too and got the same and I wouldn't want one either.


----------

