# Lespediza Hay-Worms.



## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

We had Mcmasters  fecal counts done on the herd a couple weeks ago.

Tested 13  goats at a state lab, basically all except our Jrs. and kids.

Results:
4 goats  0 eggs/gram
4 goats 50 eggs/gram
2 goats 150 eggs/gram
2 goats 400 eggs/gram
1 goat 750 eggs/gram

Only worms observed: Trichostrongylus  which is a Gastrointestinal round worm ( in Nematode family I believe)

We know the Pasture/Parasite specialist at NC State Meat Goat unit.  Their philosophy is they do not worm if count is less than 1000 eggs/gram (but, they have a serious issue with drug resistant worms)

Our Vet says he would normally recommend worming if count is over 500 eggs/gram.

We are a dry lot, we have no pasture we are all hay and feed.  Normally feed Coastal Bermuda hay free choice with grain supplement and Alfalfa pellets/Shredded Beat pulp/Alfalfa hay for lactating does or animals that need conditioning.

We know all except 3 have never had anything other than Safeguard. The three we aren't sure of are a 0 count, and the two 400 counts

Our vet suggested that since we are dry lot our goal should be to be worm free.

We have a number of does who were bred  within the last month.

He recommend we feed Lespediza Hay for a month  and give each goat a teaspoon of food grade DE mixed with feed ( Diamatacheous Earth )

Had 50 bales of Lespediza delivered today.  It's a legume hay, not a grass hay.  I've seen it called the "poor man's alfalfa".  It does not have as much calcium as alfalfa.

I read a study and apparently it is high in "tanins" which is what helps with worms.  In the study they purposely exposed boars to a variety of GI worms.  Control group was fed  Coastal Bermuda while the others were fed Lespedezia.  Did counts at end and counts were lower in those fed Lespedezia.  Also, check stomachs after slaughter and fewer adult worms observered.

I guess I'll let you know in a month or so how it turns out.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Apr 9, 2013)

*Awesome, can't wait to see your results. Thank you for posting this! *


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:
			
		

> *Awesome, can't wait to see your results. Thank you for posting this! *


Your welcome.  I debated with myself on posting this.  There are some very outspoken opinions on this site about worming.

We got they hay.

I read that they call Lespedezia hay the "poor man's alfalfa".  Well let me tell you how poor he is.  He is so poor that he had to walk 5 miles to school, barefooted, uphill both ways poor.  

They are both legumes.  Similarity ends there.

Goats seem to like it though.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 10, 2013)

I would be interested too.  Certain foods can have the ability to reduce how effectively parasites reproduce/thrive and it would be interesting to see how this work.  Wish you were just doing one variable though (either the hay or DE so a better conclusion could be made about what helped the most).

And as far as saying people here have very outspoken opinions, I think that phrasing is a bit rudely worded.  It is like talking badly about someone while they are standing right there.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 10, 2013)

We have this growing on our property... it is great! 

Glad you posted this.    

Where did you get yours? At the workshop I went to, seed is $200 for 50 lbs and out of stock apparently for the year.

There is more about this here...

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/ACSRPC/Resources/sericea.html

Thing is it isn't really a de-wormer.... Dr. L went into great detail and showed slides etc.

You are right about strong opinions, but in the end people always feel strongly about what they are doing. Insecure people will feel threatened when others do something different and they are usually the ones to disrespect a differing opinion. Somewhere along the line people can often forget to "respectfully" disagree. I really think people should use the management practices that work for them... if it isn't working then there is a problem. There is more than one way to manage goats!


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> I would be interested too.  Certain foods can have the ability to reduce how effectively parasites reproduce/thrive and it would be interesting to see how this work.  Wish you were just doing one variable though (either the hay or DE so a better conclusion could be made about what helped the most).
> 
> And as far as saying people here have very outspoken opinions, I think that phrasing is a bit rudely worded.  It is like talking badly about someone while they are standing right there.


I certainly did not mean to be rude.  I am definitely "outspoken" myself when it comes to certain subjects, so I certainly don't consider that word to be derogatory. 

And if you took it personally, I don't consider you to be one of the particularly outspoken posters on this site.  On the contrary, I find your posts to be thoughtful and intelligent.

I also consider some of the "outspoken" posters opinions to be thoughtful and intelligent. 

Yeah, I understand your point about comparing the two variables, having a control group.  Is it one or the other?

I read a study on the hay.  I wonder if anyone has ever done a separate study on the DE?


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 10, 2013)

The only studies I have read with DE were done with poultry, which are obviously quite different from a ruminant.  It would be really neat if someone would do like they did in the poultry but it would have a large enough group with a parasite load to have a control and several single variables tested.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> We have this growing on our property... it is great!
> 
> Glad you posted this.
> 
> ...


See that's what I meant about not being sure if I should post this.  As respectful and thoughtful as your reply was you made a statement that " Thing is it isn't really a de-wormer.... Dr. L went into great detail and showed slides etc."  

I know a  Dr. C who told me it is effective and he is somewhat reputable himself. I personally don't know your Dr. L.

I found another study that was done as a trial on a university research unit that found a statistically significant reduction in eggs in fecals and in the stomachs of slaughtered animals.

I will find it an post the link.

You made your statement as "factual" when obviously there is some disagreement on the subject.

That's what I meant.


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## Bridgemoof (Apr 10, 2013)

Thank you for sharing this info, I'm anxious to see your results. I've reading up on this Lespediza, but not sure if I can actually get bales of it around here. I was considering buying seed though.

And Southern, what did you learn about it "not being a wormer"? I was just reading about it today in studies where it is being researched as one. I'd be interested to hear what you discovered.


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## that's*satyrical (Apr 10, 2013)

The only feedback I've seen concerning using DE IN the feed was somewhat negative.  They said the goats seemed to lose condition while using it.  I do use DE on the paddock in heavily berried areas, and in their bed area.  I also sprinkle it over them in the spring (just did the other day) to help combat any external parasite issues before they start.  I use a wide spectrum dewormer when I bring a new goat home and right after kidding if the doe doesn't look to be in great condition.  Other than that I don't use it.  I would use it, however, if it seemed like there was a problem.  I would probably run a fecal first in that case.  We also dry lot our goats just because that is the type of land we have.  It's mostly forest.  I've heard of using garlic and rosemary as natural dewormers for pigs.  I wonder if that could be used for goats as well?


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## Southern by choice (Apr 10, 2013)

Dr. L- Sorry I presumed you knew who he was... is Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl-North Carolina State University a member and one of the key researchers with the ASCRPC

Dr C is great but he doesn't do the research. He is an awesome vet that is for sure BUT It IS Dr. L's lifework - it is what he does....they showed the slides and presented all the studies. I may have it on disc from the class if you would like to see it. When the studies were done they noticed once the animals were OFF the Lespediza the egg counts rapidly increased. They repeated the study over and over to figure out why... ended up sending slides out of the country for some of the leading scientists to figure out what was going on. The plant was basically making it impossible for the parasite to reproduce or "suck" it had kind of a coating on it ... the slides (slideshow pictures for us) where very clear... amazing actually. After the Les. was out of their system fecal egg counts began going back up rather quickly.

Yeah. I hesitated posting too, as it seems even when I am agreeing with you you tend to find something to knit-pic against. 
Instead of sharing info you tend to dispute or argue. It is old.

I haven't been on here in a long time, mostly because of this kind of thing.

Genuinely happy to see you bring up this awesome plant... just don't get you 1 fine... you seemed like such a neat person. Adding info to something that you DID NOT KNOW isn't a fight or anything it is adding  to already great info.... that is what a forum is. If you reject the research fine... but a forum is not just about you...others may want the info... they can decide for themselves.


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## bj taylor (Apr 10, 2013)

hello, i'm completely new & don't have goats yet, nor have ever had.  I will in the next few months.  i'm curious, southern by choice, you say you have the lespediza growing on your place - what kind of growing conditions does it thrive in?  thanks


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Dr. L- Sorry I presumed you knew who he was... is Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl-North Carolina State University a member and one of the key researchers with the ASCRPC
> 
> Dr C is great but he doesn't do the research. He is an awesome vet that is for sure BUT It IS Dr. L's lifework - it is what he does....they showed the slides and presented all the studies. I may have it on disc from the class if you would like to see it. When the studies were done they noticed once the animals were OFF the Lespediza the egg counts rapidly increased. They repeated the study over and over to figure out why... ended up sending slides out of the country for some of the leading scientists to figure out what was going on. The plant was basically making it impossible for the parasite to reproduce or "suck" it had kind of a coating on it ... the slides (slideshow pictures for us) where very clear... amazing actually. After the Les. was out of their system fecal egg counts began going back up rather quickly.
> 
> ...


Well Southern, I feel that when I post something I get nit-pic'd as well.  In fact, I feel that way right now   I apologize if I make you feel that way, because I DO NOT enjoy the feeling myself.
Believe me, if I could go back in time right now I would stick with my first thought to not post this at all.  I should start listening to my better half.

When I joined this site in Dec, I did so because I thought that I could contribute something.
I'm sorry to hear that you have not posted on here for a while because of anything I may have said.  I think it would be a good idea if I gave that some thought and prayer tonight.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 10, 2013)

I'm not going to get involved in this but I did want to say a quick few things.

1) DE is NOT a dewormer at all. ALot of people believe it is but it's not and that drives me crazy.

2) There is no vet that knows it all, not even "Dr. C"

3) Hay is not a dewormer either

There are certain things other than chemical wormers that can help with worms in certain ways but most are NOT wormers like people say or believe. No hay is a dewormer and neither is DE.

They are FACTS and really no disputing either of them. Do the research (not look at one "respected" person)


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I'm not going to get involved in this but I did want to say a quick few things.
> 
> 1) DE is NOT a dewormer at all. ALot of people believe it is but it's not and that drives me crazy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts.  You've obviously done a great deal of research on this and I appreciate your contribution to my thread.

I'd also like to apologize to you as well if I've ever said anything that you took as offensive.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Apr 11, 2013)

Nope, none taken at all.

I have only read the first post so far. I didn't have time earlier. I'm not going to say or take part in any of the rest, I simply wanted to say what I said above. I sure don't know everything about goats and I know there's much more I don't know than I do know. But I do and have done tons of hours of research and what I said is true.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 11, 2013)

I read all the replies to this thread. Wow if you guys think people are rude on here you haven't been on many forums that are truly hard to handle.  Some of them that I've been active on can be vicious.  I take it all with a grain of salt. But I do take the info that seems to work for me to heart. I will put up with just about anything to get new and good info.

I totally agree with Straw Hat.  Nothing but a wormer will get rid of worms. Other things might help control their rapid reproduction a bit but in the end if you count on anything other than a wormer you will end up with wormy animals.

Unless my sheep are showing signs of a heavy load I don't worry about parasites to much. IF I had smaller land or tighter quarters for the sheep I might have to worm more often but as it stands I worm 2x's per year and we are doing great! 200% lambing, nice growth on everything, why should i look for trouble! I will surely find it and if I don't look the trouble that needs me will find me.

Prohibit or Lavamasole is my wormer of choice right now then Cydectin the other worming time.  I switch it up if need be but it's working for us at this time!

DE is great sprinkled in the barn or coop but I have never really found it does much ingested.  I was under the impression if it gets wet it is not effective anymore so once ingested it's not really doing much and I've seen coughing sheep from inhaling long term.

Certain grass might help control or lessen the reproduction of parasites but really, kill them?  How would that work?  

I have enjoyed this forum the short time I've been on, glad that the "nit picking" is light and will keep on reading. 

Thanks for sharing good advise!


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## bonbean01 (Apr 11, 2013)

We've looked into that grass as preventitive for worms...I'm the odd one out on here with doing the monthly garlic barrier and ACV drenching monthly...also as a preventitive for worms...it is not a wormer, but so far have not had to use chemical wormers and we do check eyelids often for signs of barberpole worms since that is the most common worm in our area...oh...and we don't have goats, we have hair sheep.

Also as a preventitive we've used pumpkin seeds and large yellow squash seeds.  Again...none of these are wormers, only for helping prevention of worms.  Our other method here is keeping their shelters and dry lot clean...removing the poopy and peed bedding out, putting down lime and then clean bedding.  

We do have Cydectin on hand, but so far have not had to use it and we're going on 6 years of having sheep.  If necessary, I would not hesitate to use it.

Bottom line...we all do what works for us...everyone has a different situation with their animals and because something works for one person does not mean it will work for others.  

As for nit picking...I find it gives more opinions and options and things to consider.  The more approaches and experiences makes for more learning in my opinion.

From my reading, Lespediza grass does not do well in our area which is too bad since the more worm prevention possible is our goal.  Hair sheep are known for being fairly worm resistant, but not all animals are, so what works here may not work at all in another area with other animals.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 11, 2013)

> I'm the odd one out on here with doing the monthly garlic barrier and ACV drenching monthly...also as a preventative for worms...it is not a wormer, but so far have not had to use chemical wormer's and we do check eyelids often for signs of barber pole worms since that is the most common worm in our area...oh...and we don't have goats, we have hair sheep.


I'm glad that all those things combined are helping you keep your flock healthy. Keeping your numbers down and not overstocking  your fields is one of the best preventatives, that and keeping a dry lot as clean as possible. 

But just a cautionary tale....I have friends down in AR a very wormy area due to weather.  big commercial flock of wool crosses.  We ran into wormer resistant worms. Barber pole, which is quite deadly in lg. quantities.

FAMACHA did not work because by the time they are anemic it's almost to late to save them.  Yes you can, but when dealing with a big flock you're going to have losses if you wait for the advanced symptoms.  They did FAMACHA and garlic juice, AVA also tried copper boluses (it stayed in the gut not poisoning them) but their losses were high. They are now on a reg. worming schedule and have cut losses way back.

Natural is a great way to go, cull your heavy worm carries and build up a more resistant flock but....when needed I see no reason not to use an approved wormer.  

Again, I've raised sheep for about 15 years, I don't do fecals I worm when needed or 2x's per year and have never lost a sheep to high worm load.  I don't feel the need to confirm sheep carry worms.  Management is my choice.

JMHO


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 11, 2013)

I do use chemical dewormers but I also know that some foods can lower a parasite count and can inhibit their reproduction and growth.  I don't' think I would personally use them as a replacement for testing and treating when it is warranted but if a certain type of hay did have properties that aided in keeping parasites are bay, I would be interested in learning more.  I go back and forth about DE and have not used it because we haven't had an issue that has me looking for other avenues to keep our parasite load at bay just yet.  It would be great, once again, if a substantial study was done on its use in goats or other ruminants.  

Education should be an ongoing thing when it comes to how we manage our animals and as new studies are done and findings are release, practices should change.  The reason I am one to beat the "test before treating" drum is because when I first got started in goats, there was so much to learn and I remember going to the store, grabbing a pelleted dewormer, and dumping it into the feed trough---thought I was doing a good thing   I didn't know that was a bad idea and that treating parasites that way not only not good for my own animals or my wallet, _I was contributing to the resistant parasites issues we ALL have to deal with_.  That is based on current studies and I am all about keeping as current as I can.  If I can help someone to not make the mistakes I made starting out, especially when it comes to parasite treatment practices since they do impact other people too, I will and I hope others would do the same for me still.

How we chose manage our farms is ultimately up to us individually but if we are on here to learn from each other, we should be willing to listen to people's ideas and reasoning without being dismissive or condescending about the advice given by others.  I am very grateful to the folks here who have for years now helped me to modify my practices.  By all means, please share and I will be the first in line to read it and learn.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 11, 2013)

> How we chose manage our farms is ultimately up to us individually but if we are on here to learn from each other, we should be willing to listen to people's ideas and reasoning without being dismissive or condescending about the advice given by others.


I hope you were not referring to my post above yours.  I, in no way was trying to be condescending or dismissive.  It was my intention to come across with information to what I believe and choose to do. Others opinions differ and yes learning from others is always a great way to gain knowledge we might not have ourselves.

I stated my opinions and what works for me and what hasn't worked for me in the past.  That is all.

I would love to see more clinical testing done on sheep or goats but at this point it is not in the monetary gain of the pharmaceutical companies and others that might study worm loads and what to do about them in our sheep and goats.  Cattle is where the money is found hence the clinical trials too.  Until we get our markets here in the states to count our sheep into it's profit margins we are going to be doing more of our own testing by means of trying different things and talking amounst ourselves to further our knowledge.

Stating what my practices are and having a difference of opinion with others and discussing them is the way I choose to evolve and learn.  If someone came up with something new that I haven't tired and found it worked you bet I'd be using it and talking about it too! At the beginning of my above post I even stated that I think the use of all the natural methods are helping to keep worms loads at bay.  But IMO I do not think they are in and of themselves going to keep a flock worm free.

No condescending or trying to be dismissive  meant.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 11, 2013)

Oh, no not at all.  Just making a general statement about how we interact here.


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## elevan (Apr 12, 2013)

*I'm gonna make one comment in regards to this topic of tannin rich feed and worms - If y'all want to re-read the Parasite Management article that I wrote (link in my signature below) and read through the thread that is linked at the bottom of the article you'll realize that we talked about this very subject not long ago.  I, in fact, give my own animals a tannin rich supplement as an experiment.  It's my hope that this thread can continue in a tone appropriate to the forum so that the discussion can continue.  Each herdsman/woman must decide what is best for their individual farm and situation.  Please continue while remembering the tone that we try to set here on the forum.*


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 14, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Dr. L- Sorry I presumed you knew who he was... is Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl-North Carolina State University a member and one of the key researchers with the ASCRPC
> 
> Dr C is great but he doesn't do the research. He is an awesome vet that is for sure BUT It IS Dr. L's lifework - it is what he does....they showed the slides and presented all the studies. I may have it on disc from the class if you would like to see it. When the studies were done they noticed once the animals were OFF the Lespediza the egg counts rapidly increased. They repeated the study over and over to figure out why... ended up sending slides out of the country for some of the leading scientists to figure out what was going on. The plant was basically making it impossible for the parasite to reproduce or "suck" it had kind of a coating on it ... the slides (slideshow pictures for us) where very clear... amazing actually. After the Les. was out of their system fecal egg counts began going back up rather quickly.
> 
> ...


OK, didn't recognize Dr. L.  I do recognize Dr. Jean-Marie Luginbuhl.  He is an advisor to my NC Dairy goat breeders group.  He has spoken at our meetings before.  He is a brilliant researcher.

I fully appreciate research being one's life's work.  My wife does pre-clinical research in toxicology.

And full disclosure for others on the site, my Dr. C is Dr. Allen Cannady who is a professor at the N.C. State Vet School.  His life's work is the health and care of small ruminants.

Again, sorry if I responded the wrong way.

There may have been a misinterpretation to my original post.  I was not suggesting that diet would be a substitute for giving de-wormers.  I had stated that we have a number of does that have just been bred.  Some of these wormers are OK for pregnant does, but some should not be used in the first trimester.

I wish you luck in growing the Lespedezia.  We know some folks trying to grow it as well.  They are having a hard time getting it started.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 14, 2013)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I'm not going to get involved in this but I did want to say a quick few things.
> 
> 1) DE is NOT a dewormer at all. ALot of people believe it is but it's not and that drives me crazy.
> 
> ...


Again, there seemed to be a misinterpretation of my initial post.  Didn't mean to suggest it was a de-wormer.

But, because we have some does that had the higher count that were just bred, we hesitate on using a stronger wormer right now.

Didn't mean to suggest we would not be giving them a dewormer at some point.  And, that was not what Dr. Cannady suggested.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 14, 2013)

elevan said:
			
		

> *I'm gonna make one comment in regards to this topic of tannin rich feed and worms - If y'all want to re-read the Parasite Management article that I wrote (link in my signature below) and read through the thread that is linked at the bottom of the article you'll realize that we talked about this very subject not long ago.  I, in fact, give my own animals a tannin rich supplement as an experiment.  It's my hope that this thread can continue in a tone appropriate to the forum so that the discussion can continue.  Each herdsman/woman must decide what is best for their individual farm and situation.  Please continue while remembering the tone that we try to set here on the forum.*


I read your article.  Seems we fall into the category of worms coming from 20-30 percent of the animals.

Our herd had basically been closed until last summer when we bought 3 new does from a breeder in another state.

Our animals are dry lot.  These came from pasture.  2 of the higher counts were them.


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## bcnewe2 (Apr 14, 2013)

I don't know goats.  Are they not as hardy as sheep? The only wormer I know of that can't be used in the first trimester in ewes is valbazon,  I  might be missing one but is it the same with goats? Just curious....


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 14, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> I do use chemical dewormers but I also know that some foods can lower a parasite count and can inhibit their reproduction and growth.  I don't' think I would personally use them as a replacement for testing and treating when it is warranted but if a certain type of hay did have properties that aided in keeping parasites are bay, I would be interested in learning more.  I go back and forth about DE and have not used it because we haven't had an issue that has me looking for other avenues to keep our parasite load at bay just yet.  It would be great, once again, if a substantial study was done on its use in goats or other ruminants.
> 
> Education should be an ongoing thing when it comes to how we manage our animals and as new studies are done and findings are release, practices should change.  The reason I am one to beat the "test before treating" drum is because when I first got started in goats, there was so much to learn and I remember going to the store, grabbing a pelleted dewormer, and dumping it into the feed trough---thought I was doing a good thing   I didn't know that was a bad idea and that treating parasites that way not only not good for my own animals or my wallet, _I was contributing to the resistant parasites issues we ALL have to deal with_.  That is based on current studies and I am all about keeping as current as I can.  If I can help someone to not make the mistakes I made starting out, especially when it comes to parasite treatment practices since they do impact other people too, I will and I hope others would do the same for me still.
> 
> How we chose manage our farms is ultimately up to us individually but if we are on here to learn from each other, we should be willing to listen to people's ideas and reasoning without being dismissive or condescending about the advice given by others.  I am very grateful to the folks here who have for years now helped me to modify my practices.  By all means, please share and I will be the first in line to read it and learn.


Overall, I think we aren't in bad shape considering that when we bought our first 3 goats we gave them safeguard annually for the first two years.  And, we haven't wormed any of the others at all.

I hear the advice on here to not worm until you test for worms and find out what you are dealing with.  I agree with this 100%.

I thought it would be interesting to say "here are 13 animals and this is their egg counts"


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 14, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> I don't know goats.  Are they not as hardy as sheep? The only wormer I know of that can't be used in the first trimester in ewes is valbazon,  I  might be missing one but is it the same with goats? Just curious....


I'm not sure.  My wife is the one who reads the labels and calls the shots here.  It may just be her opinion.

I stated she does pre-clinical research.  Her specialty is breeding studies where they look at the effects of compounds on developing fetuses.


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## elevan (Apr 14, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> bcnewe2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Valbazon is the same with goats.

Goats and sheep can both be hardy...there are many variables that can come into play with both though.


eta:  Moved this thread to organic husbandry - goats.


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## OneFineAcre (May 9, 2013)

In my OP I said that they call lespedeza the "poor man's alfalfa".  I then said he was so poor he walked 5 miles to school both ways, uphill.

I think I may have been off base.  I do think it is a fine product.

My wife arranged the whole deal, and I was not there when they delivered.   We got 50 bales delivered to our house. My first impression was based on the fact that when the trailer was empty there was a lot of loose hay, and they asked her if we wanted it.  They put in a trailer I had in the yard.  It was probably another 5 bales that were free.  But, it was loose and not really good.

But when we started to open the bales, it is actually really nice hay.  The goats love it.  And, we had a couple of animals who were undercondtioned, who have greatly improved.   Also have a couple who were good conditioned who are a little too fat now.

 I know it doesn't have as much calcium as alfalfa, and I'm not sure of the actual nutritional value otherwise.  But, my impression is that it is superior to the grass hay we normally get around here.

Cost, is about half what we would pay for alfalfa, but more expensive than Bermuda which is pretty cheap here.

It has a very sweet/spicy smell


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (May 9, 2013)

*Wow it looks really nice, and that's great to hear your goats like it and have been getting in better condition because of it!*


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## goatboy1973 (Nov 19, 2013)

We have Lespediza  growing wild on our farm. Our goats love it. Oak leaves and acorns all have tannins also.


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## bonbean01 (Dec 8, 2013)

Not speaking for Southern here, but I believe she was saying it is not a dewormer, but an excellent preventative.  We use garlic barrier and ACV on our sheep as a preventative of worms...treatment and preventative are two different things.  Lots of hot debate on this in the past and don't want to stir any hornet nests on the subject...treat worms when needed, but also don't forget the preventions...everyone has different situations and with sharing experiences, we all learn and our animals are the ones getting the benefits.  Bottom line is, we all want what keeps our animals healthy.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 13, 2013)

My grandfather was a seed salesman and he got all kinds of experimental hybrid varieties of seed and he would sow the stuff in areas of the farm to see how they did so that he would have 1st hand knowledge of what he was selling. The experimental clover and Lespediza he sowed 20+ yrs ago grows like wild fire and the goats love it!


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 13, 2013)

goatboy1973 said:


> My grandfather was a seed salesman and he got all kinds of experimental hybrid varieties of seed and he would sow the stuff in areas of the farm to see how they did so that he would have 1st hand knowledge of what he was selling. The experimental clover and Lespediza he sowed 20+ yrs ago grows like wild fire and the goats love it!



I got the batch that started this thread brought in from Va.  I had to buy 50 bales. My barn was a mess.  I had two 5x5 round bales of coastal and then 50 bales of the lespedezza.  Couldn't even move in there.  I wish I new a local source where I could get smaller quantities.  Regardless of it's benefit in worm prevention, it is really good hay.  It has a wonderful, sweet spicy smell.   My goats love it and gained condition when I was feeding it.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 13, 2013)

I would love to get some also. Same issue... storage. I can't store 50 bales and my round bales. I can do 20-30 bales max
I can't even find it. 
@One Fine - did it affect the taste of the milk?
It grows wild here but doesn't do me any good in the winter and in the spring/summer they only eat it if they need it I guess because they will eat it and then other times we will cut it and tey will leave it.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 13, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> I would love to get some also. Same issue... storage. I can't store 50 bales and my round bales. I can do 20-30 bales max
> I can't even find it.
> @One Fine - did it affect the taste of the milk?
> It grows wild here but doesn't do me any good in the winter and in the spring/summer they only eat it if they need it I guess because they will eat it and then other times we will cut it and tey will leave it.



I don't recall that it affected the taste of the milk, but I also don't think we were milking much at the time.  I seem to recall we didn't want to give any chemical wormers because we had some in last month of gestation.


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## goatboy1973 (Dec 13, 2013)

I can't find any of the stuff in the form of bales. The Lespediza we have grows in big clumps around the rocks in our part of the farm that we can't get a bush hog into. I too, wish I could get some bales of this stuff. There's a variety of it called Korean ... And it has been proved best for grazing and haying but it is so very, very expensive. I don't know what variety our's is though.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 13, 2013)

Korean grows wild in these parts.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 13, 2013)

The bales of hay we bought we paid $ 7 each for.  So, it wasn't too bad.  I have a local source of alfalfa that I bought some for $9 for.  There is a guy close to me who still has some asking $12 for alfalfa.  If I buy from Mule City feeds it's $15 for alfalfa, but I think the bales may be a little heavier

The lespedeza is really good hay. Like I said, my goats really liked it.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 13, 2013)

Where did you get the Lespedeza from in VA? Do you have contact info?


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 13, 2013)

Southern by choice said:


> Where did you get the Lespedeza from in VA? Do you have contact info?


 
Maurine got it through Dr. Cannady
I was not involved in that deal at all.
I can find out, I would like to get some more.
I'll find out and let you know.


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