# Which buckling to keep for breeding?



## Backyardherder (Apr 7, 2013)

... if at all? 

At first, as we don't intend to keep more than 3-4 does at the moment, we figured we won't keep a buck at all, but rather, will rent a buck every year, or take our does to be with a buck like we did last year. But hauling does is no mean feat, and people aren't very keen on renting out good bucks, and those who do, ask for quite a lot of money... and so we are considering to keep one of our just-over-a-month-old bucklings for a future breeder. 

Questions: first off, how good are the practical chances that either of them will be ready to breed at the beginning of next breeding season? That's in August/September, and they'll be about 6 months old. I know the net is full of warnings such as, "if you don't want a buckling to breed his mother, don't keep him with her longer than 2 months", but is it more of an insurance, or a real possibility? Have any of you relied on 5-6 months old bucks for breeding? Or should we already be checking other options for the upcoming breeding season? 

Second, which one would you keep? Both had the same sire, a gorgeous snow-white Saanen, both look exactly like him (actually they look almost like identical twins). They are more or less the same size. The main difference between them is in temperament.

One is acting very "bucky", is very vigorous, butts us all the time, tries to climb the does, his half-sibling, us, garden chairs, the hammock, etc. His horns are growing faster and his "male parts" look bigger.

The other is just the sweetest baby. He loves to be cuddled, held on our laps, scratched behind the ears. His horns are growing slower and his "male parts" look smaller. 

Does it mean the more active buckling will be a better breeder? Is there a chance that buckling number 1 will be ready for breeding sooner than buckling number 2? 

Our personal favorite, of course, is buckling number 2, and I also imagine he will be easier to handle as he grows older and reaches full size (the first one is already annoying, with all his butting/climbing). 

Any thoughts?


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## Oakroot (Apr 7, 2013)

I would keep the nice buckling. Intact males of any species are a dick (pun intended) and you will be much happier keeping the nice one. The more aggressive one will probably be a more aggressive breeder but that does not mean better.


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## alsea1 (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm not real exp. yet but if I were going to hold onto a buckling I would start training him now.
I would treat him just like he were a adult. Reduce the cuddling and touchy stuff. Thats good now but not when he is grown.
He will make a better animal if he does not think he is a pet.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 7, 2013)

If there is any physical advantage of one over the other, pick that one.  But you say they are the same so I would choose the more friendly of the two.  BUT I agree that you should work on good manners now and resist cuddling him on your lap or you might have troubles down the road.


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## Backyardherder (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks for the replies, everyone! It won't be easy to stop the girls from cuddling him though... :/ they just adore him... 

And how about the practical possibility of him breeding next season? Will he be too young?


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## woodsie (Apr 7, 2013)

when I was researching rams for my sheep I came across many articles correlating the size of their testicles to multiples in their offspring. eg. bigger testicle size = more babies from the offspring he produces. I would assume the same would apply for goats but can't say for sure. Now this is a measure they were using in commerical flocks and might not be as important in the backyard herd. 

I need to work on my bucklings manners as well....he is adorable but the finger suckling and climbing all over us when he gets big (he's already a big boy) is not going to be so cute. 

Post pics of the boy you choose...we always love pics!


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## Backyardherder (Apr 7, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

> when I was researching rams for my sheep I came across many articles correlating the size of their testicles to multiples in their offspring. eg. bigger testicle size = more babies from the offspring he produces.


That sounds strange... I always thought multiples depended on how many eggs the doe releases in an ovulation cycle (like in humans).


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## woodsie (Apr 7, 2013)

Backyardherder said:
			
		

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Not that the girls he breeds will have more multiples but that his daughters will be more likely to have multiples. Does that make sense?


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## woodsie (Apr 7, 2013)

Here is a link for a book that talks about "scrotal circumference" and multiples.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=7bF...onepage&q=ram testicle size multiples&f=false


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## Backyardherder (Apr 7, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

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Ahh yes that makes sense! Thanks for explaining. 

Of course in our case, since it's just a little backyard herd, it has no real importance. We just need them to kid every year so that we have milk.


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## Backyardherder (Apr 8, 2013)

And here's the photo of the little buckling we think of keeping... in his favorite spot, on the girls' trampoline.

He is so little now I'm actually having a hard time to believe he might be ready to breed in just a few short months. 

Now I'm having second thoughts again, because the other buckling's mother has a better udder (bigger teats, easier to milk) and that's important. But on the other hand he's really really annoying, and I can only imagine how hard to handle he will be when he grows up!


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## woodsie (Apr 8, 2013)

Are you planning on keeping the female offspring for future milking or do you just want to milk the girls you have? If you are looking to improve your milking lines I would go with the one with the better milking genetics or get a new buck with milking background that will be able to breed all the girls without inbreeding. 

If you are just interested in getting the girls pregnant than go with the personality you like. I have heard you aren't really supposed to treat the boys as pets anyhow and having one that his so sweet and personal might make that harder....I have one of those myself which I adore but am trying to leave him alone and start treating him like a sire and not a puppy....easier said than done! 

Good luck in choosing....he is very cute!


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## Backyardherder (Apr 9, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

> Are you planning on keeping the female offspring for future milking or do you just want to milk the girls you have?


Yes, we would certainly love to keep at least one doe that is born to us here at the homestead. Perhaps next year. 

So we are still wrestling with what we should do. Also re-checking other breeding options. We definitely want to get good quality offspring, so that they will be convenient for milking if they stay with us, or can be sold at good price if they don't.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

Backyardherder said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies, everyone! It won't be easy to stop the girls from cuddling him though... :/ they just adore him...
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> And how about the practical possibility of him breeding next season? Will he be too young?


I disagree with the poster who told you to stop cuddling him and treating him as a pet.  We have a buck who was bottle raised by a little girl and he is very friendly and easy to handle.  A nice temperment does not negatively impact breeding capability.

He should be able to breed at 6 months old.

Edited:
See you may have changed your mind.  I would try to tame that one more, make him friendlier.


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## Backyardherder (Apr 9, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> I disagree with the poster who told you to stop cuddling him and treating him as a pet.  We have a buck who was bottle raised by a little girl and he is very friendly and easy to handle.  A nice temperment does not negatively impact breeding capability.
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> He should be able to breed at 6 months old.
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Thanks for replying; to begin with, I'd really rather not keep a buck at all. We have limited space and I hardly believe we can keep more than 3-4 goats. I'd much rather just keep does, *if* we have a good, safe, reliable breeding option without keeping our own buck. That IF is what is being checked now... if the answer is no, then we are going to keep the friendlier mellow-tempered kid, because they are going to grow big, and a big full-grown buck with a nasty temper is NOT something I can handle.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 9, 2013)

Backyardherder said:
			
		

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Understand what you are saying.  That was our plan too.

But, I  can tell you, bucks can be just as sweet and nice as can be.   Smell is only an issue when they are rutting in fall.
 A dominant doe can in many ways be worse to have around.

I have a 3 yo, 2/yo, and we are keeping a 7 month old buckling, and have 6 month old that we are going to sell.

They are all together and are getting along great.


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## Backyardherder (Apr 10, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> But, I  can tell you, bucks can be just as sweet and nice as can be.   Smell is only an issue when they are rutting in fall.
> A dominant doe can in many ways be worse to have around.
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> I have a 3 yo, 2/yo, and we are keeping a 7 month old buckling, and have 6 month old that we are going to sell.
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I checked out your website and I see that you keep Nigerian Dwarfs; ours are Saanen crosses - not pure-bred, but to give you a clue as to the size. A full-sized buck from that line would be HUGE, I imagine, so that's a consideration.

But then, perhaps we might switch to keeping a smaller breed altogether, to make management easier. That's something to consider as well.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

Backyardherder said:
			
		

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I saw you had Saanens.  We know some Saanen breeders.  They are definitely big. And ND's are a totally different story.

I saw 3 Saanens drag a lady across a parking lot before.  She was moving them from the show building back down to the tent where they were at.  She sort of tripped and stumbled, which spooked the goats and they took off. She would not let her animals go until I ran over an got control of them and took their leads.

She was OK though

The little buckling in the picture on the trampoline has wattles doesn't he?

I think I remember some of your other posts, aren't you in Israel or some other country?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 10, 2013)

I would keep the one that has the better mom,  the calmer buckling may just as easily start acting the same way, just a little later bloomer.  for sure stop petting on them and handling them,  Either one will become awful and have no respect for you all.  They should not be allowed  to rub their heads on you and you should not rub on their heads or scratch between their horns. Bucks can get really bad when handled this way and it will not be easy for you all to break them once they are bigger of such a bad habit.  

I personally don't think at this young age you can really tell how one buck is going to behave over the other one.  All it is reall telling me is the one has matured a little sooner.  When the slower maturing buck start maturing he will probably act the same way.  Junior bucks can be sassy. They are teenagers that need to be taught manners.  

Keep the one that has the best structure and comes from the best milk line. AFter all it is about udder quality.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 10, 2013)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I would keep the one that has the better mom,  the calmer buckling may just as easily start acting the same way, just a little later bloomer.  for sure stop petting on them and handling them,  Either one will become awful and have no respect for you all.  They should not be allowed  to rub their heads on you and you should not rub on their heads or scratch between their horns. Bucks can get really bad when handled this way and it will not be easy for you all to break them once they are bigger of such a bad habit.
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> I personally don't think at this young age you can really tell how one buck is going to behave over the other one.  All it is reall telling me is the one has matured a little sooner.  When the slower maturing buck start maturing he will probably act the same way.  Junior bucks can be sassy. They are teenagers that need to be taught manners.
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> Keep the one that has the best structure and comes from the best milk line. AFter all it is about udder quality.


You are right in that either one could become difficult.  Probably a good idea to keep the buckling from the better dam,


I'm going to respectfully disagree with the notion that you shouldn't handle and "pet" on a buckling.  We always do that.  And the reason is my wife has worked on commercial livestock  operations that do AI and keep males to "heat" check.  They always pull them out of the nursery and raise them for that purpose by giving them extra attention and "petting" as they say.


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## Backyardherder (Apr 11, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> I saw 3 Saanens drag a lady across a parking lot before.  She was moving them from the show building back down to the tent where they were at.  She sort of tripped and stumbled, which spooked the goats and they took off. She would not let her animals go until I ran over an got control of them and took their leads.
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> She was OK though
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Oh wow! That is my nightmare... to get landed with a goat I can't control... our first goats were stolen by our neighbours, and when I think back on it I believe it was a blessing in disguise (though back then we were pretty upset, as you can imagine), because one of them used to kick/butt all the time, and literally knocked my children off their feet a few times. She was a beautiful doe but such a nasty temper overrides it all... beauty, quality, good udder... IMHO anyway. 

Yes, he does have wattles. I know some people don't like them but we aren't bothered either way.

And yes, we do live in Israel. So that's another consideration; our climate is hot, and the country is arid. No rains for roughly half a year. So perhaps a Saanen wouldn't produce here as well as in a cooler climate. We're now considering Shami goats (originated from Cyprus/Damascus), who are more "local" and perhaps will be better adapted.


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