# Double Dwarf Gene in NG Doe- Can She Be Bred??



## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 20, 2013)

I recently bought a herd of 7 Nigerian dwarf does, and came across a new term I wasn't aware of in the breed- Double dwarf gene. One of them is really small for her age.

This doe is almost 1 year old, but is easily the size of a 6 month old doeling. The previous owner said she just never grew as much as the other goats, that she was never sick, and always got plenty to eat. She said she thinks this doe has a double dwarfism gene that is making her stay small, and that the doe should not be bred or it would kill her for sure.

So, does such a condition exist? Or could her extra small size be something else? 

And could she ever be bred w/out it being a death sentence?

I need to decide if Im keeping her (I don't have room for a non-producer) or if I should sell her to a pet only, buck free home. I have a buck, and can keep him penned, but I also know accidents happen, and I don't want to risk her life in any way.


BTW, I saw the previous owners place, and it was immaculate, excellent pens, 4 acres of grazing land, and she was super into keeping her goats well fed, well supplemented, and well groomed. I have no reason to even suspect the doe was anything but very well cared for.

What do you think?

Keep her and breed her?
OR
Sell her as a pet?


Normally I wouldn't have taken a doe like her since I am looking to keep my girls for home milkers, and to sell a few kids to offset feed (and of course PLAY with kids!), but she was part of a whole herd sale of 7 DOES, for only 700 bucks, which came with a TON of extras (basically everything you need to show and to keep goats) and of the 7, 6 are registered/registerable, only one wasn't, so I was NOT gonna pass up such a deal! The lineage is really good on these girls (for our area), so I am so excited about this herd being added to my current herd. Vet will be out wednesday to draw blood on ALL goats for testing, do fecals, etc. And yes, they are in quarantine. I am hoping to keep a few of the best for milkers, and sell the rest as bred registered does. 

To make things more complicated, we also just picked up some pigs to raise for butcher, and I had to stuff the buck in with them for the night until I can reconfigure my pasture pens to keep everyone safe.
Of course, my buck is ramming fences to get to them, so I need to figure out about the smaller girl before he hurts himself, or busts out!!

HEEEEELLLPP!!!


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## Mamaboid (Jan 21, 2013)

I wish I had an answer for you, but I know nothing about NDs.  I have two does that are 1 year old this week, and they seem to have the 'stay tiny gene' also.  Mine are FB Fainters. They are and always have been healthy, they were triplets, their Mom and Dad are both full size and healthy, and they have always eaten good, no worms, no problems, treated for cocci prevention.  I don't have an answer to why they are staying so small, and I question if I am ever going to be able to breed them.  It is very frustrating to work with since these were supposed to be the foundation for my FB Fainter herd.  Hopefully, somebody can help you out with answers.  Meanwhile, I will just give you a


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## goodolboy (Jan 21, 2013)

Don't know much about goats, but I can say this. It doesn't sound to me like this goat is what you want anyway. Even if it doesn't die from it the kids won't be up to snuff. Use good breeding stock to get good results. I would cull this animal, and spend the money on good stock.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 21, 2013)

It is possible for her to have a gene for dwarfism, I suppose (but it would not mean she has anything called a "double dwarf gene"---they are not small because of of a dwarf gene so they wouldn't have like a double-dip of it).  Could it be other things?  Yes.  She could have had trouble with coccidia or other parasites and is stunted, and even in clean places, people do have parasite issues.  She could have other genetic issues other than dwarfism that have influenced her height and weight gain.  She also may not have had enough good quality food to help her reach standard height.

So should she be bred?  I would not.  It is usually a good idea to breed a doe to a buck that is smaller than the doe or at least close to the same size, so as to avoid kidding troubles.  Nigerians are naturally easy kidders but given her small frame and that you would not likely be breeding her to a similarly sized buck, she could have serious problems.  She might not, but if it is not worth the expense of having a vet do a Caesarean, than I am voting don't do it and just sell her as a pet.


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## lilhill (Jan 21, 2013)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> It is possible for her to have a gene for dwarfism, I suppose (but it would not mean she has anything called a "double dwarf gene"---they are not small because of of a dwarf gene so they wouldn't have like a double-dip of it).  Could it be other things?  Yes.  She could have had trouble with coccidia or other parasites and is stunted, and even in clean places, people do have parasite issues.  She could have other genetic issues other than dwarfism that have influenced her height and weight gain.  She also may not have had enough good quality food to help her reach standard height.
> 
> So should she be bred?  I would not.  It is usually a good idea to breed a doe to a buck that is smaller than the doe or at least close to the same size, so as to avoid kidding troubles.  Nigerians are naturally easy kidders but given her small frame and that you would not likely be breeding her to a similarly sized buck, she could have serious problems.  She might not, but if it is not worth the expense of having a vet do a Caesarean, than I am voting don't do it and just sell her as a pet.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 21, 2013)

Nigerian Dwarf is just a name that was given to a smaller breed of goat.  They are not smaller because of a "dwarf" gene.  

So, I doubt the "double dwarf" explanation.  She may just be smaller.  As to if she can be bred, it depends on how big she actually is.

How much does she actually weigh?

I would ask how many kids their were when she was born.  She may have been the smallest of a quad birth that they dam raised.. I have one like that.  She was smaller than our others at a year old, but she was still large enough to breed.

It is my experience that some ND's grow at different rates.

I would want to know how much she actually weighs at this point before I would say you should/shouldn't breed her or should/shouldn't  sell her.

You said you are having a vet out come out.  I would ask the vets opinion.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 21, 2013)

I think you guys are spot on- I think I will sell her to a non-breeding home, asap. She is very cute, but I really don't want a doe I can't milk or sell kids out of. She is just super tiny.... She is definitely smaller than my buck, and he is only 9 months old.

I do worry someone else could breed her trying to get even smaller nigerians, but I guess I can't control everything, can just do my best to find a good home. Ill have my vet check her wednesday and then list her for sale once I get all the results back.

Thanks to everyone for the info about dwarf genes... I hadn't heard of it and couldn't really find any info online. I had a feeling her size was more an issue of her just being small because its just her way, the rest of the herd is perfect sized, and she is related to several of them.

I can say that I think her lines come from a certain breeder whom I know has had some severely small goats born, and I mean so small that they are about the size of a pomerainian dog, and they were not getting any bigger. So, now that I put it all together, I am sure its a good idea to cull her lines from my herd- with full disclosure to any buyer.


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## goodolboy (Jan 21, 2013)

Amen


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 21, 2013)

Only you can decide which animals you want to keep in your herd and what your breeding program looks like.

If you sell the animal, I would suggest you advertise her as "pet quality" or sell her as unregistered.  I would be very careful as to statements about the other breeder.  Negative statements about other breeders have landed people in federal court.  No, joke it has happened with Nigerian Dwarfs.

In my opinion, I think you may be having an emotional reaction to the "double dwarf gene" and "death sentence" neither of which I think is factual.

You stated that she is "definitely smaller than the 9 month old buckling".  I would expect a 9 month old buckling to be larger than a yearling doeling.  I have a 4 month old buckling who weighs 25 lbs and a 4 month old doeling that weighs 20lbs.  He is 25% larger than her.

ND's can have variations in size and growth rate 

 The NDGA says that does will ideally be between 17-19" at the withers, with a max height of 21".  The ADGA does not have an ideal height but a maximum of 22 1/2".  The difference between 17" and 22 1/2" (5 1/2") at the withers is huge.  For an adult doe that could be 55-60lbs to 75-80lbs

When the ADGA recognized the breed people with other breeds of dairy goats who had no interest in them before, took interest.  And, I believe have tended to breed towards the higher end, while people who bred them for years and showed at NDGA shows preferred the smaller height.

But, the thing is the people who bred the smaller ones for years had done a lot of work on improving udders, so a lot of the shorter lines with great udders are being crossed with larger animals.

We have several does who are 21 1/2".   When we bought our first buck, we got an opportunity to buy one of the last buck kids from a great sire (he had died the previous winter)  Turns out he's pretty large as well.  When we bought our second buck we purposely looked for a smaller animal.  You should see the difference.

Again, I'm curious as to how much she actually weighs and would love to see a picture of her.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 21, 2013)

Well said One Fine Acre!  

There really is a good deal of size various. My girls are on the larger end of the height scale, with their weights on the upper end 60lbs-almost 80...the 80 because she was fat! I like mine larger, some go as small as possible. Just different preferences.  I just try to make sure my bucks are a nice solid standard as to keep the offspring balanced and in proportion. C-1 is 30 lbs and 41/2 months, and yes she is a bit "fat". 


By the way...you can get her spayed. I know someone that has a ewe that she spayed because of breeding problems but her wool is so good it was better to keep her.  I thought it was kinda cool, I'd never heard of that before.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 21, 2013)

I like larger as well, more substantial, less "pygmy" looking.  Our best milker weighs close to 80lbs.

I love ours at the top of the height scale.  Just have to find the right proportion.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 21, 2013)

I brought the little doe inside and measured her with a regular spool yellow measuring tape used for household stuff- approx. 15 inches tall, measuring from her front hoof on floor to her withers (give or take 1/4 inch for fur), and 17 inches long from mid-chest to back of her rump, measured along the side of her body, not along the top of her back.

There is NO way she weighs more than 15-16 pounds. Didn't put her on the scale, but she is very light. Body is proportionate in every way though. 

Birthday is 3/15/12, so she is about 10 months, 1 week old.

I took pics, but my laptop refuses to upload them!! Will try again later.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 21, 2013)

Weigh your self.

Then step on the scale with her.

15-16 lbs would be very small.   My doe kids born in the fall from 3 to 4 months old weigh from 17 to 20lbs.

We have two Jr. Does born in March.  We weighed them last weekend and they weighed 42 and 43 lbs.

If you go to my website and look at the Jr tab.  It's Hazel and Taffy.

Any chance the breeder got the date wrong?  You said a 6 month old was larger.  Any chance she got their dates mixed up?

If she is 10 months old and only weighs 15-16lbs I would say something is very wrong.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 21, 2013)

OneFineAcre said:
			
		

> Weigh your self.
> 
> Then step on the scale with her.
> 
> 15-16 lbs would be very small.


I would, but my scale is way off, it really just gives me a 'close enough' as far as my weight goes, and it changes its setting every time anyone steps on or off it, so its not accurate. Id get a new one, but somedays it says I weigh less than I really do, and I love that about it, so I keep it for the confidence boost! 

Seriously, she is LIGHT weight- I can hold her in one hand with her body barely wrapped over my forearm, she's so short. When I hold a 10 pound bag of sugar in one hand, and her in the other, there is very little discernible weight difference ( I actually did that! All the pics we took were in the kitchen, so I figured Id try it). 

If I could just get the pics loaded, you could see a pic of her close to my 15 month old son (he is sitting down near her), his head is level with her face, and he weighs WAY more than her, I KNOW he weighs 29 pounds because we just had him weighed at the Drs office last week or so. (sorry for the run on sentence there!  ) I measured her 3 times to get the numbers right, so Im pretty sure I got those right, but I would like to get a real and true weight on her to be 100% sure.

She is SUPER fluffy too- almost like a baby doling, ya know? Has thick soft fur, good thick undercoat, but then has all these fine, extra-long hairs that make her look like a puff ball all over.

Maybe I could get one of those tapes they sell to measure goat weights? Would it work on her?


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 21, 2013)

You can't use a tape on Pygmy's or ND's.

I think if you weighed yourself, even if it wasn't accurate and weighed with her it would be close.

Like I said, if you go to my website, the two Jr.s weigh 42 and 43 lbs.

The kids tab has all of their birthdates.  Of the does Snowflake weighed 20lbs last weekend I think Buffy was the smallest at 17lbs.  The two buck kids Big Brown weighed 25 lbs and Scooter weighed 18lbs.  Now Scooter is kind of small.

If she only weighs 15 lbs and she is 10 months old there definitely something wrong with her.  You said a vet was coming out.  Id' see what he had to day.


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## RainySunday (Jan 22, 2013)

I'd be curious to get a true weight on her too.  I have a ND buckling who was born on Dec. 11th that weighs 14.5lbs (and three others that weigh between 10 and 13.5)...and the doe born the day before is just over 10lbs.  They aren't even 2 months old yet.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 22, 2013)

I will catch her up again and weigh her tomorrow. Now Im wondering if my guesstimate of her weight could be off? She just feels SO much lighter than my son, but I carry him SO much due to his disability
, that maybe Ive gotten stronger, so she doesn't feel as heavy? IDK, but my daughter held her too, and she agreed with me about the doe being lighter than my son.... 

Does anyone think its possible that she could actually be younger than her registration papers say? 

I WISH I could get some pictures up! Grrrrrr! 

Maybe someone could help me trouble shoot?

 My pics are on my pre-historic lap top,  (Im using my hubbys nice new apple laptop to post), I don't know how to get the pics from my junky, off-brand, 6 year old laptop, onto his. Nor can I get my laptop to stop 'loading' the pics and actually load onto my uploaded page so I can post them! 

Using my old lap top, I,- go to Uploads, choose the picture to upload, then resize for message boards (also tried uploading in all the other sizes), then hit Submit, and thats when the waiting starts, and NEVER ends. It will not actually upload to my uploaded pics page. And I don't have too many pics loaded, only used 21% of my space for pics. 

I really think its my junky laptop, but its the only place I can get the pics off my camera and into a computer.... (internet connection is really good here otherwise)


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 22, 2013)

NOTICE
I had said to look at my website for reference.

Stupid me, those pictures were taken first of Nov.

But, the weights I gave were accurate.  The two 10 month old doelings weighed 42 and 43 lbs last week.  My doe kids who are 3-4 month old are between 17-20 lbs.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 22, 2013)

pridegoethb4thefall said:
			
		

> Does anyone think its possible that she could actually be younger than her registration papers say?


I couldn't make that kind of mistake, but I would not rule it out.  Don't know the folks you got them from.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 22, 2013)

So I went out and grabbed her, and brought her in to do the weigh her with me thing, and here's what I got-

By myself I weighed (remember, this scale is usually off by 2 pounds either way if I dont adjust it perfectly each time I use it)- 

Me alone- 134

Stepping off and back on WITH doe- 150

Then I was able to get her to settle onto the scale by herself, all body on scale- 17 pounds.

Here is a pic of her with a measuring tape (probably cant see the numbers, but the dark black spot is 1 foot, she looks about 15-16 inches at withers) Her b-day was March, 15, 2012, about 10 months old. She is by a childs toy stool.








Here is is about a foot and a half from my 29 pound, 15 month old son-






Here I am holding her. I am 5 foot, 2 inches, so she looks big, but the pic is a close up, and Im not a big person (and Im wearing a puffy coat) She has a tiny face, doesnt she?






opinions?


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 22, 2013)

She looks smallish in the picture, but not super tiny.

Her weight is really low though.  Honestly, she does look bigger than 16-17 in the picture.

I don't know what to tell you for sure.

I wouldn't rule out that she could be bred one day.

Some ND's can be bred when they are 7 months old. We don't breed ours until they are a year old.  We just stay on a schedule.  But, our 10 month olds that weigh 42 and 43 are large enough to breed.

I don't think she is large enough to breed, and it looks like she wouldn't be large enought to breed at a year old.  I don't think I would want an animal like that in my herd.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 22, 2013)

I have that same kid's stool and seeing her by it reaffirms to me that she is too small to be bred.  If you want to give her another year to see if she puts on some height and weight, then reassess, there is always the chance that she could get there but I doubt she will ever be average.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 22, 2013)

I am wondering if she possibly has a bad heart condition. If so she would be small, as some heart conditions will cause retarded growth. If you have the vet come out I would also want to know about kidney function.

*Very few breeders ever have their goats hearts checked*. Severe murmurs can stunt growth...we are talking grade 6. We *DO* have our goats heart checked, as some heart conditions may be hereditary. With a goat having a heart condition it can also be caused by severe anemia too. It is very costly to go to a cardiologist to see if it is a inherited condition, far out waying the cost of the animal IMO. $400+ is average for a cardiologist...  

I believe, and yes this is just my opinion, but heavy culling for excellent health is  the best way to keep a healthy productive herd.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 22, 2013)

I measured and re-measured, she is no more than 17 inches at withers, and that includes the puffy hairs. I think I will take a peek at her teeth and see if they look really small and the spacing between them, and compare to my others that are a bit older.

I am on the fence with her. I think I want to sell her to a pet home. I don't want super small genes in my herd, and I don't want to feed a non-producer in the *hope* that maybe, someday, she Might be able to breed. Thats just not gonna work for my bottom $ line.

But she is just soooo cute, and is warming up to us faster than the others. AGH! Gonna have to make that decision extremely quickly and act on it. My buck is very eager to meet the girls, and I DONT want any accidents. I gotta get these new girls bred soon to avoid late summer kid dings (too hot), but I have a few days/weeks during quarantine and waiting for vet results.

Should I ask the vet for that stuff that causes goat abortion, just in case? I am overly paranoid, I really don't want to take chances with her health, ya know? Yes, they are separated, but Ive read way too many posts about accidental breedings, and I know Im not perfect.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 22, 2013)

OK for some reason I have taken an interest in this

In your last post you said she is 17" at the withers.  I just measured one of my 10 month old doelings, and she is 17"  And this particular goat is from a larger line.

She weighs 43 lbs.

I measured another who was born first of Oct, and she is 13" at withers, and weighs around 18 lbs.

You goat does not look that skinny. I think that goat looks like she weighs more than 15-16lbs.  I got my wife to look at her and she thought she was heavier than 15-16lbs too.

I think you need to find out for sure what she weighs.  

I'm certianly not trying to convince you into keeping her.  In fact, if she really only weighs 15-16lbs something is seriously wrong there.  But, if she that tall.... and she doesn't look thin, then I just think she weighs more than that.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 23, 2013)

Had the vet out today...

She checked Lilly (tiny girl), and she said no heart issues, except a possible arrhythmia, but she thinks it was because Lilly was scared. She thinks her small size is due to... drum roll please.....

Worms, poor feed and LICE!!! I saw the lice all over her once they were pointed out to me. I feel HORRIBLE that I didn't see them, but I have never had an issue with lice before, and like a dummy, I BELIEVED the last owner when she told me she had wormed them and took super good care of them. 
NONE of my original herd have lice, only the ones I got from her. Also, 2 other goats I got recently from a whole different place showed signs of having had lice, but due to my worming practices, I had eradicated them (without me even knowing they were there). 

I assumed the poor coat condition was due to lack of proper minerals, maybe worms, but I had NO idea about lice and their effects. Sheesh I feel dumb....     But on the positive side, now I know a lot more, and I can provide the proper care to rid the goats of their pests, so I am glad about that. 

More good news- I had the vet pull blood on my does to check for pregnancy! Cant wait for results!!!! Also having them tested for CAE and CL. Testing for Jhonnes (sp?) next month, this months tests and visit were almost 300 buckaroos, so had to pull back and wait till next payday. 

Vet thinks Lilly will get bigger once she has no more lice or worms, and is given better food. So, maaayybe I can keep her for a few months and see how she does... 

She also confirmed that she weighs under 20 pounds and that her teeth look like a 10-11 month old goat, she thinks she is about 16 inches at withers. She is not too thin, but again, she has a super fluffy coat making her look bigger than she is. My measuring of her height was not super refined, and I was going off several attempts, but the average I get from it is about 15-16 inches. Maybe I could try harder, and I could weigh her again, but I know its not gonna be over 17-18 pounds- just no way.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 23, 2013)

I think you got your answer from the vet.

Get her healthy, see if she puts on some weight, and you may decide to keep her.

You need to get her healthy even if you are going to sell.  But, you may decide then that she's a keeper.


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## Fluffygal (Jan 23, 2013)

I hope you get her turned around and back on track to good health.  She looks so precious in the pictures.
From the vets comments with TLC she may turn into a good doe for you. 
Hoping for the best.


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## pridegoethb4thefall (Jan 23, 2013)

I will be keeping her, for a little while, at least. I am going to treat for worms and lice, and wait for all test results before I do anything. 

I really see myself selling her off once she is healthy- the long term costs of trying to get her grown before I could possibly breed her to get milk and kids, are just too high for my tastes. 

But, if I should happen to suddenly have an excess of $$$, I would definitely try and keep her! She is showing signs of being more friendly and cuddly, and I think she'll make a great pet someday.


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