# Purebreds vs crossbreds



## cbobgo (Jun 8, 2013)

Hello, I just joined the forum, as I have just moved into a 2.3 ac property.  We currently have a small flock of chickens and will eventually get some goats once the property is adequately fenced.

I am doing research on LGDs, as I intend to get one soon.  I have been reading a lot about the different breeds, but I come from a science background and am very familiar with genetic problems (as my son has a rare genetic condition) so I generally lean more away from the inbreeding that can happen with purebred animals.  But the flipside of that is that with a purebred dog you have a better likelyhood of getting the guardian skills that you are looking for.

So, I just wanted to see what everyone's thoughts were on purebred dogs vs crossbred.  I will be looking for a dog that comes from working parents, regardless of the breed.

- bob


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## Southern by choice (Jun 8, 2013)

You are safe with LGD x LGD these are not really considered mutts/mixes in the lgd world. They are just LGD's

I would strongly advise not to get a LGD breed x with a NON LGD breed.. Disaster waiting to happen.

My background is herding and working with other working type breeds. Although LGD breed are in the "working" groups they are not like ANY other kinds of dogs, they should be their own species.

There is great vigor in the LGD x LGD crosses... some i prefer over other. Purebreds often coming from AKC confirmation or showy lines generally are not working dogs.

I look at the field where they are coming from.... when I see a 15 year old pyr along with 10 year olds still in the field that says way more to me about  their health than any papers or testing.


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## Grazer (Jun 8, 2013)

I agree with everything Southern said.
Crossing an LGD breed to another LGD breed is not a problem. 
Because although each LGD breed is a little different, they are all related and were all bred for the same function, i.e. guarding livestock.
Here's a list with LGD breeds (some are already FCI/AKC recognized, others will one day be officially recognized, and then there are some who are just a variety within an already recognized LGD breed): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog#List_of_breeds 

The problem arises when people cross LGD breeds to non-LGD breeds.

Your best bet is to get a puppy from a working stock. Visit the breeder and its dogs; make sure the breeder is knowledgeable & cares about functionality, good health and a correct temperament.


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## cbobgo (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback.

Today I found a rancher/breeder about 4 hours away that will have Akbash/Kangal pups in about 3 months.  Website looks pretty respectable, pic of parents look good, price is $500 which seems to be reasonable.  I will probably go take a look at them.

- bob


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2013)

great!

How old do they keep the pups to?

Just a FYI- there are some people here in the states that are using/training the kangals and kangal crosses for dog fighting... it is really happening more with the kangals.

See the parent stock and see how the animals do with the livestock.
The breeder should have the pups in with the livestock with parent stock.

Ask for de-worming records/dates and vaccine records/dates.

...and of course you must post pics for us pic addicts!


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## MDres (Jun 9, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Just a FYI- there are some people here in the states that are using/training the kangals and kangal crosses for dog fighting... it is really happening more with the kangals.


I've been really suspicious of that myself. I hate to hear it. 

There was someone posting pictures, I cannot remember what forum/website it was on, but.... The pics were of Kangals in Turkey and other countries - dogs that were being sold/imported to the US. The dogs did not have traditional cultural studded collars on, but instead had typical USA "tough dog" collars on, and the handlers in the picture WERE NOT herders/farmers. They were high-maintenance looking men with fashionable clothes, current styles, and their demeanor just looked like they were dog-fighters. Not that you can stereo-type that, well, I guess you can, but these guys looked like they had never been outside the city. And there were no pictures of the dogs "working" - just pictures of the dogs standing in a conformation pose.


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## secuono (Jun 9, 2013)

With a two acre lot, you might be better off just putting up electric fencing. 

But I agree with LGD x LGD, never LGD x any other group.


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## cbobgo (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback.  This place is a working goat ranch, it does not look suspicious for fighting dogs at all.  He said he keeps the pups until they are 3-4 months old.

I will certainly post pics when I get a dog.

As far as fencing goes, we will have good fencing, but critters have a way of getting over and under and through it, so I want a second line of defense.

- bob


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2013)

That is great... As a trainer I would hold all dogs til 12 wks but prefer for LGD's 16 wks... and recommend this to breeders... very few are willing to keep them past 8 weeks, but it does cost more. Wormings til 16 wks, all shots other than rabies and moving and working dogs with all types of livestock takes time. Then there is assessment... first by 8 wks then continually evaluated for the right fit/home.

Start pup to get trained to hotwire RIGHT away! The breeder sounds like they might already do that but I'd ask. Hotwire will save your dogs life too.

All4 of our LGD's HATE the wire. They do respect it though! 

Our 1 pyr M can get out of anything but he doesn't.... he is actually pretty obedient even without hot wire but only our Anatolian can be outside the fenced areas without taking off... pyr trait... they just go!

Have you any experience with kangals or akbash or any type LGD? If not you will want good support. Trust me on this one. 

*@MDers*- Yeah... I have seen those pics too!  I have seen pics where they are training for protection work.. kind of like schutzhund... NO LGD should ever be trained for such things and once again dumb people doing dumb things at the expense of truly great dogs!


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## MDres (Jun 9, 2013)

I *think* what secuono meant was that 2 acres isn't a lot of space for a LGD to "work". They are prone to wandering, and are escape artists. I would be sure that your fencing on that 2 acres can contain your LGD, or that all your neighbors are aware that you have a LGD that might wander onto their property.


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## cbobgo (Jun 9, 2013)

some folks at a different LGD group I joined suggested that an akbash/kangal cross might be too energetic for a smaller property like mine.  The word she used to describe them was "hot" as opposed to "cooler" breeds like Marenna and Pyr.

Any thoughts on that?

- bob


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2013)

Accurate. 

My subtle question from the other post was meant along those lines. It is a much harder LGD/LGD... both breeds.
Anatolians, anatolian pyr cross and believe it or not the pyr will do well on small acreage.

Athough pyrs are roamers as are many LGD breeds it really is because they feel their territory is as far as they can see.

The size of land is irrelevant, regardless of what people say. Predators really don't care what size property you have... they don't check land records and say, "Oh, I don't think we should go get those lambs, kids cuz they are only on 2 acres". Silly. The need for a LGD is by the level of predators and actual predator threat.

Having said that I do think being cautious of what breeds do best for your environment is something to consider. 
Our goats and sheep are rotated throughout the property... using field fencing areas and hotwire through the heavy wooded areas. Because we move the hotwire often along with the goats and the dogs and will move the teams of LGD's and sometimes split teams... the areas they are in are not that large.... all do fine.

I am a trainer and so I probably deal with less issues but working with your LGD cannot be stressed enough. The addage of drop them in the field and don't interact with them is truly the root osf many LGD issues today. It was advice from long ago when the LGD was first brought here and put on 1000+ acres where there was no human contact and there were teams that interacted more like "packs". This is not the face or use of the LGD today. There are very few farms or environments like that.

We are in LGD country here, heavy heavy coyote issues and this seems to be "boer" capital   There are pyrs on every, and I mean every farm here. Regardless of it being 1 acre dry lots, 2, 10 ,30,100 acres.... 

There are very few here that have a single LGD, as the predators are many and very bold. Coyotes taking peoples pet dogs off a porch... they are small packs but 2-3 coyotes can take down a deer buck so goats and sheep are no problem. I do not know of one farmer here that has had a loss since having their LGD's.

This year we actually have bunnies (wild) in the yard... the dogs have driven out the coyotes, fox, coon, bobcats. They are awesome!


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## cbobgo (Jun 9, 2013)

so, you would consider the anatolians more in the "cool" catagory vs "hot'?

Hot:  Akbash, Kangal

Cool: Pyr, Marenna, Anatolian

Where would you put Komondor, Kuvash, Mastiff?

- bob


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2013)

DD is on computer ..will get back to you in a bit.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 9, 2013)

cbobgo said:
			
		

> so, you would consider the anatolians more in the "cool" catagory vs "hot'?
> 
> Hot:  Akbash, Kangal
> 
> ...


Personally I love the Kuvasz - very hard to find anyone who has working stock in the US
I think the Grt Pyrenees and the Anatolian are the "easiest" of all LGD's. The Toli being a little easier than the pyr in many ways, GP is filled with personality though and both are great for the family ranch/farm setting. 
Not a huge fan of the Maremma...   mostly because they are small and a little wild sometimes, depending on the stock they are coming from.

I would not recommend the Komondorok to anyone without prior experience with LGD's. EVER.

I guess it depends on the "Mastiff" you are referring too... I have worked with the Tibetan Mastiffs and they are great dogs but there again not for the inexperienced and I don't know of any LGD TM's ... most are show/pet

I do want to say many people have a very wrong impression about the Anatolian and many have been frightened away from this breed. SAD! They are one of the most incredible dogs there is! They are awesome LGD's. 

The Kangals are typically the "hot" dog as you say.  

There are some other threads where more detail is given but that is MO in a nutshell.

I absolutely love my pyrs but I absolutely cannot imagine not having an Anatolian either. I am considering getting another anatolian myself.  I love the PYR/TOLI cross. I haven't bred a litter in 25 years because I really don't like breeding. This year I will have pyr/tolli pups and GP purebred pups.... Every pyr/toli is already spoken for.... that says alot. 

There is a list on my page that discusses some of the things I would be asking a future LGD owner... take a look at it.... you may find a breeder that does the same... to help fit your needs. On site visits will tell you alot. 

I was going to go back and look at your history on your first post. What is the predator threat you have right now? I know you are on 2 acres, what livestock do you have? 

IMO all these things are important. Setting up the future owner for success should be a priority for any breeder.


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## cbobgo (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks again for your input.  Right now we only have chickens, but plan on getting goats once the property is completely fenced and we are more settled (only been on the property for 2 weeks). Eventually there will be ducks as well, and of course the typical house dogs and cats, fish, hermit crabs, etc.

As far as predators, the main ones are raccoon and bobcats, but there are apparently coyote around as well, and there have been mountain lion and bear sightings more infrequently.  We are in the foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains on the central California coast.

- bob


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## Hacked (Jun 27, 2013)

Hot,... even when shaved.

Mother is Great Pyrenees 
Father is Komondor

This, is Odie.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 27, 2013)

Very cool! 
What livestock does he guard?

Got to say, I've never seen this cross!


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## Moonshine (Jun 30, 2013)

This is very good to know! I heard coyotes this morning and very close to our house. We had 2 rabbit does in a cage together and they fought all night after we had went to bed. We have heard coyotes before but never that close. It sounded like they were within seeing distance (if it would have been daylight. But it was 4:30 am!). So I went to a flea market and bought a Pyrenees/Anatolian mix. She looks a little rough and is only 7 weeks but I'm going to clean her up and work with her. I was told she was born in the barn and raised in the barn with the goats and things would just come instinctively to her but I have read before on here that they did need to be worked with. Any advice on what I need to read on how to work with her. I don't have an adviser nor mentor. Right now I have 3 goats, rabbits, dogs and cats but I'd like to get chickens too.


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## RamblingCowgirl (Jul 17, 2013)

Lots of good advice 

I'll share what little I know. Some of the breeds tend to cling to the herd more, like Pyrs. Right now we have Ralph an 8mo 75% Pyr 25% Anatolian that is a dream. We just have a few acres and the only time she leaves is if I let her fallow me when I go on a walk. We let her bond with the goats in a small pen for a few months before we did more then feed her, she is still a little more shy then I would like so next time around we will do a little more handling.
The first thing she learned was the word "No!" and that is really all it takes at the rare time she has done something bad. She is smart as a whip tho. And even this young she knows what her job is. She is watchful of everything on the place, from my front door, to the box of kittens, to her goats. We have two other lose dog and some nights they take off into the woods after something, that's when she gos on high alert here.

In the past I had two Pyr/Toli crosses, and that was nothing but heart ache for a number of reasons. I was just a teenager and the guy I got them from told my mom and me that I needed two. They where mostly Anatolian and the mom came from a HUGE ranch where the pups had to be trapped to be sold. We lived on a small lot on a corner with close neighbors, and the pups bonded to each other more then the goats. They roamed all over. I ended up having to rehome them. I think it could have worked out much better if I had only got the one.

My advice would be take your time and don't jump at the first pups you come across like they are the only ones you will ever have the chance to get. And I wouldn't get more then one pup at a time unless you have a lot of stock and land.
To tell the truth I did a lot of praying when we starting looking for an LGD, then we found Ralph who is a blessing.


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