# What to look for in an Endurance horse? PROSPECT W/ VIDEO!!!



## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 6, 2013)

OS*I know this is a VERY broad subject, but I would like to know the main points of what to look for in an Endurance prospect. I'm looking at one gelding now, he's 10, nice conformation, big wide feet, sound mind and body. I'm just not sure what I should be looking for as far as the amount of "go" he should have, or is that something I can train into him? 

Thanks!*


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 6, 2013)

Have him vet-checked for sure.  

Good feet are important, as well as good attitude.  Ride him, of course, especially at a trot which is the gait that is most used in endurance racing.  He should have an easy to ride, smooth trot that is easy on him and YOU!  Does he have a nice laid back shoulder which will enable him to have a flowing stride instead of a short choppy gait?

Has this gelding worked for a living?  If he's been a pasture ornament all his life he will be much harder to bring into serious endurance shape.  While a willingness to "go" is a necessity, remember that fighting to hold them back uses up a lot of your energy and his.    

You can build his stamina and endurance, but only so much.... you can't make an endurance horse out of an animal who is not physically and/or mentally suited for it.  Too much muscle mass might work against you in this instance.   A lean, mean efficient machine is what you want.  A large majority of endurance horses are Arabian or Arabian crosses.  Not being a breed snob here, but these horses have been doing this for centuries.  

Good luck!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 7, 2013)

*Sorry I should have included more info. He is a registered 100% Arabian. He has a great attitude, loves people and has a "I'm looking to you for guidance" attitude... He also has a wonderful, comfortable HUGE trot and canter, and good conformation.

He has not worked for a living, mostly just trail rides with kids and he lives in a huge 10+ acre pasture. He is a big soft marshmallow right now (not fat, just soft), but muscle can come with training and conditioning, I just think he is a good horse underneath, he just needs the home and care to bring the best out in him! 

The mare I ride right now is a little pistol, so I am just not used to a horse being so "calm" I guess it's hard for me to judge how much "go" he has when I am used to something with SO much "go".

I think the main thing I am worried about is that after looking at so many good Arabians, how do I pick "the best" one for endurance if they are all suitable? I guess I am scared of making the wrong decision and going with the wrong one....*


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## sawfish99 (Aug 7, 2013)

Honestly I would take a more experienced endurance rider with you for a second opinion.  In my experience on trails and in hunter paces, if the horse is laid back and easy going, you spend a lot of time and energy pushing the horse to go forward.  I would tend towards a more forward horse for endurance.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 7, 2013)

*Thank you guys for answering!

Maybe he just seems laid back to me because I am used to "the pistol", lol.

I have a "seasoned" endurance rider coming to ride with me (and him) on Friday to let me know what she thinks. Also my trainer (the one who found him) thinks he would be a great endurance horse and she has been doing it since the 80's.

I will be taking him to my trainers in the next week or two for a pre-purchase vet exam to make sure he would be all cleared for Endurance racing.

I will get pics and hopefully video on friday. 


Anything else I am missing?*


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## MDres (Aug 7, 2013)

Are you shopping for a horse that can immediately compete at the "Tevis Cup" level, or are you looking for a mount to do local rides up to 25 miles? 

If the answer is local rides, then just about *ANY* Arab can be brought to that level. It just depends on how soon you want to compete.... 

And just because the horse is a calm deadhead that you have to push at home doesn't mean it won't get fired up at a ride/competition. Lots of "calm" horses can get excited when they are in a group - you may end up holding your horse back more than you realize...


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## goodhors (Aug 7, 2013)

Have to agree with MDres, starting with calm and relaxed, 
doesn't mean he will stay dead in the heat of competition.
I just know I LIKE being able to position my horse wherever,
and not need to fight to keep in in that postion.  Fighting with 
horse the WHOLE RIDE can be tiring, takes a lot of the fun 
out of the ride.  He should be able to go faster if you ask, 
but not pulling at you all the time.  You need to "save some
of the fuel" at times, for using it later in the ride.

Being a pasture pet his whole life, means you need to take a LONG,
SLOW time to build up his body for competiton.  I am talking 
about at least 90 day, with 3-5 rides a week.  You just can't 
push him faster than this time span, and not expect to hurt some 
unfit part of him.

The different body parts get fit at different speeds.  Muscles are fit
before tendons and ligaments, and they are fit LONG before his bones
get fit to haul his weight properly.  And you are also building his wind,
which can take quite a while, as his body stresses, then recovers, and 
building an increasing system of heat removal, ability to move oxygen
thru his body.

We fit horses each year for competition, and they NEED the long time to 
build the working body into a competitive machine that can handle
heat, speed, weight they need to move, recover quickly at Vet Check,
keep going for the last section.  They get winters mostly off, so by Feb we 
need to start getting fit for June competition, to have enough time to 
do all that body building again.  Even with a previously conditioned
animal, you still have to allow time for body to change enough to 
handle distances and hard stress of competition after time off.  If horse
is not in work, he is not staying fit to compete.  You can't speed up
the process, two works in one day STILL only count as one work
in the fitness conditioning!

We see a lot of sore or damaged horses, who were pushed too hard, 
before they got entirely fit.  Injuries are common, because
all the body parts are not equally fit, ready to take hard work.

I would seriously look at this nice, calm horse as my next Endurance
animal.  AND recommended by experienced person who does Endurance?
 He sounds like a real gem, if he passes his pre-purchase
check!!  I haven't ever had much trouble speeding one up, but trying
to calm some down is a lot of work!  That carrying on, will raise their
P and R during recovery, can cause problems with them fretting because they
know they are going out for more ride time.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 7, 2013)

MDres said:
			
		

> Are you shopping for a horse that can immediately compete at the "Tevis Cup" level, or are you looking for a mount to do local rides up to 25 miles?
> 
> If the answer is local rides, then just about *ANY* Arab can be brought to that level. It just depends on how soon you want to compete....
> 
> And just because the horse is a calm deadhead that you have to push at home doesn't mean it won't get fired up at a ride/competition. Lots of "calm" horses can get excited when they are in a group - you may end up holding your horse back more than you realize...


*
Hi MD, thanks for answering! 

I am looking for the proverbial "diamond in the rough", something inexpensive, maybe green-broke, that I can put a lot of time and training into and end up with something REALLY good on my hands. 

I will start with the local 25's, and then maybe 50's in a couple years, and then maybe eventually the Tevis!

If I end up getting this particular horse I don't plan on competing with him until next year after he gets some foundation work and conditioning. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 7, 2013)

*Wow thank you for answering and for all the good info!!!
*


> Have to agree with MDres, starting with calm and relaxed, doesn't mean he will stay dead in the heat of competition. I just know I LIKE being able to position my horse wherever, and not need to fight to keep in in that postion.  Fighting with horse the WHOLE RIDE can be tiring, takes a lot of the fun out of the ride.  He should be able to go faster if you ask, but not pulling at you all the time.  You need to "save some of the fuel" at times, for using it later in the ride.


*This is him, he'll go faster if I ask, but isn't constantly fighting to do so.
*



> Being a pasture pet his whole life, means you need to take a LONG, SLOW time to build up his body for competiton.  I am talking about at least 90 day, with 3-5 rides a week.  You just can't push him faster than this time span, and not expect to hurt some unfit part of him.
> 
> The different body parts get fit at different speeds.  Muscles are fit before tendons and ligaments, and they are fit LONG before his bones get fit to haul his weight properly.  And you are also building his wind, which can take quite a while, as his body stresses, then recovers, and building an increasing system of heat removal, ability to move oxygen thru his body.
> 
> ...


*I don't expect to compete on him until next year. I am borrowing a very fit mare that I have been training since June for our very first ride in October, she is coming along wonderfully, and I will continue to use her until he is ready.  We started with mostly walking and trotting and now I am currently training my fit mare 3x a week, one day we do a 12 mile trot, one day we do hills, and one day we do some walking and cantering. But I would start him out much much slower, just mostly walking for the first couple of months I think and then eventually slowly work in more trotting time. And the good thing is, here, we can work them year 'round! 
*



> I would seriously look at this nice, calm horse as my next Endurance animal.  AND recommended by experienced person who does Endurance? He sounds like a real gem, if he passes his pre-purchase check! I haven't ever had much trouble speeding one up, but trying to calm some down is a lot of work!  That carrying on, will raise their P and R during recovery, can cause problems with them fretting because they know they are going out for more ride time.


*
Thank you for the information! That's the thing I am worried about with my mare, she is such a hot little pistol I am afraid her heartrate won't come down enough at the checkpoints, she is literally shaking in her boots just waiting to go for a ride here at home! 

I think he is a real gem, and that's what I am looking for. He has a wonderful personality and the beauty to go with it! Plus he is SO comfy to ride!!! I can't wait to get pics to show you guys! And I hope he passes his PPE with flying colors!!! 
*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 10, 2013)

*I wasn't able to get video yesterday, but here is pic of me riding him!  Hopefully I can get some video today. 
*


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## michickenwrangler (Aug 23, 2013)

Good feet of course is a must

Able to move out relaxed and willingly

A lot of show horses do well in 2nd careers of distance riding because they are often bored of the show ring and enjoy the challenge of the trail

Able to go through water, over logs, maneuver rocks, slopes and odd things like dump trucks in the woods or Bigfoot people blasting "Bigfoot calls" (this happened to me on an endurance ride)

For shorter rides, just about any horse not just an Arab can do it if properly conditioned. Arabs are a "little easier" to condition because their muscles are built for it. But I have seen Quarter Horses, Paints, Appaloosas, Thoroughbreds, Tennessee Walkers, Icelandics, Grades, Trakehners, Percherons, Draft-crosses, Saddlebreds, Pasos, mules, Morgans and Fox Trotters on sanctioned rides. 

A good attitude and a horse that enjoys long trail rides can overcome less than perfect conformation. My mare has an upright shoulder and long back but does great.

Cardio-vascular system is another "must". A horse should have a low standing pulse, preferably under 48 beats per minute (bpm) and able to get their heart rate down quickly. This of course is accomplished with conditioning but a horse that naturally has a big heart, lungs and naturally low pulse can give you an advantage. Also a horse that can eat while activity is going on and will drink on the trail from strange buckets or natural water.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 29, 2013)

*Hi Mi,

Was hoping you would post on here! Thank you!

Well I am leasing him until I can get his PPE done and then if everything comes out well I plan on purchasing him. He is so wonderful and nice and so lovely to ride. I just love him!

I need to get some video for you guys, he is amazing! *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 30, 2013)

*Ok here he is, finally got video. 

However, found out how  much the Pre Purchase Exams are and holy cow are they expensive. I was thinking maybe just a "normal" exam???? Thoughts???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emm3YMcWSPQ&feature=youtu.be

Sorry the video is a little smooshed, it did that when I uploaded it for some reason. *


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## BrownSheep (Aug 31, 2013)

I know nothing about horses but daaaaaaang.


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## Bunnylady (Aug 31, 2013)

Don't you just loooove Arabians! 

One thing I noticed, is that whether circling to the left or right, he carries his tail to the right, and his nose is tipped slightly to the right, too. Lots of horses are a bit one-sided, but I'm thinking a visit from an equine Chiropractor might be helpful. Of course, it's possible that just doing stretches and limbering exercises may straighten him out, too.


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## goodhors (Aug 31, 2013)

A Pre-Purchase is as extensive (read expensive) or to the point of 
only specific items, as the prospective buyer chooses to make it.
Depending on horse price, on cheap ones you might save money just
taking the animal "as is" over spending a $1000 or more on checking
him out.  Better to save the money to use on other stuff if horse is 
"only" a couple thousand to buy it.

Western breeds, horses that have been doing many jobs, lots 
of show mileage with wins, I would probably get hooves x-rayed, do flexion
testing, see what they show me.  The Stock Horse breeds are
so inter-bred with QH, that the small foot, no sole, is a huge factor
in Navicular problems which are career ending at young ages.  If
nothing else, you will have a starting point if a problem develops, so 
you can compare old with new x-rays for differences.

Higher priced horses, I would probably want joint shots, along with hooves
and flexion testing, because as a distance horse he will be doing a lot of 
miles.  Should have pretty clean joints, hooves, since he hasn't ever 
worked very hard before.  You x-ray person needs to be putting "markers"
in the x-rays, so you have a realistic size item (dime, quarter( to measure 
against.  Angles should be consistant, hoof up on blocks, to get clear views 
of hoof parts.  There is a REAL TECHNIQUE to getting good, readable x-rays
to see any problems.  Label on each shot needs to be correct!  Asking your 
local Farriers could give you a better Leg and Lameness Vet for such work, 
than one only doing it now and again.

We had a sale horse that Buyer sent a Vet to examine, which kind of turned into 
a comedy.  Vet helper was READING the book for how to do Flexions, timing
and how to hold legs up!!  They also referred to the Book for angles of hoof
and leg shots of the x-rays.  WEIRD but we just did what they asked, Buyer
was calling the shots.  We heard thru the grapevine that she sent ALL the 
multitude of pictures to be read again at the State Vet College and horse was CLEAN as a 
whistle!  College kept copies as demonstrations for PERFECT joints to compare
other pictures to!!  However Buyer's Vet, out of State, didn't EVEN bother to 
look at the pictures because a horse over 17.2H ALWAYS has leg problems!
So based on that, and NOT sending horse for a 3 MONTH try-out, the weasly 
Buyer didn't pay Vet or buy our horse.  Vet called us to get paid, but we said
the deal was between Vet and Buyer, NOT us Sellers.  Had to be a heck of 
a bill, all those pictures and time she spent at our house looking horse over.

You might want to get a GOOD Farrier involved too, see what they think of horse
hooves, if they see any problems now or issues that could happen with a lot
of use.  Pay them for their visit and evaluation.  Hooves and legs are the Farriers
business, they see vastly more than even regular Vets, notice things others miss.
Getting Vet and Farrier to visit together, they can get shots that help the Farrier
see inside the hoof, angles they need best.

You don't have to follow a set formula for PPE, can narrow it down to just things
of the most interest in use as a long-distance horse.  You don't care if he can use 
hocks for spins or sliding stops, not going to be doing that.  Read up on some of 
the Endurance and Competitive Distance riding forums, ask what parts break down
first or most commonly, so you can check that out.

And of course there are ALWAYS the exceptions to EVERY rule, horses going for YEARS
on feet that look like they wouldn't let him walk or crooked legs that never break 
down in thousands of miles of riding.  Other PERFECT looking horses with great x-rays,
didn't last a year in work!  It's always a gamble, no horse is ever going
to be perfect.  PPE is not like a warrenty, no returns regardless of his staying sound or 
not in use.  PPE just gives you a bit more information to make the choice to buy or keep
looking.  You don't spend all your cash on the FULL  PPE, for an inexpensive horse.


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## violetsky888 (Aug 31, 2013)

Many years ago I had an arabian.  They always seem to have a built in reputation as endurance prospects.  My arabian would be the first to start flagging after a long trail ride. (ten miles+).   He had
textbook perfect confirmation, great disposition and willing attitude.  My aunt later took him to nationals in show jumping where he excelled.  He turned out to be much better suited for ring work.   In my lifetime the one horse I couldn't
tire out and never got the edge off was a big rawboned flat muscled appaloosa.  He was an ex racetrack ponying horse with a huge scopey trot.  The earlier post mentioning the trot as the most important
feature is true.  I don't think bulging defined muscles makes a good endurance horse.  Confirmation obviously is important but my horse was not perfect, he was a little long bodied and big headed but he moved
in a grand style.  You can train any horse into fitness but an endurance horse has to have an efficiency of movement covering a lot of space with little effort.  A horse that isn't moving can only show you obvious
confirmation flaws that will break him down.    BTW, many years later the arabian died in his stall in early twenties after having a heart attack.   He had the best of care and should of lived longer.  My biggest worry
about the gelding you are thinking about, is having doubts enough to question and wonder if he is a good prospect.  If it is only the contrast between your higher strung mare that has you worried I think you should go
with the gelding.  Calm is a good thing.    

One other thing.  The US military back in the day they used horses did a strength and endurance test.  The findings showed after 15.2 strength was not a proportional factor.  That said
if you are a heavier rider a 16.1 horse is not necessarily stronger than a 15.1, but with smaller horses the weight of the rider verses the horse is an important factor.  A 14.1 arabian that weighs 800lbs needs a very light rider to compete
in endurance or will be outclassed by a larger horse carrying the same weight.  Keep in mind in the racetrack they handicap horses with just a few pounds difference.  The over 15.2 may just mean thinner longer legs or whatever
statistically happens but is not a firm rule.  I'm just trying to illustrate you can put a 200 lb rider on a well built 15.1 horse and performance won't necessarily drop than with a 16 hand horse but will drop dramatically
with smaller horses.  Not that a heavier rider will ever have an advantage but your horse may start flagging faster if its more of an effort to carry you.  I weighed around 115 lbs on a 14.1 arab.  He was a perfect horse for
a hour or two trail ride.    Every horse is different there are not rules that are set in stone, just generalities.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 31, 2013)

BrownSheep said:
			
		

> I know nothing about horses but daaaaaaang.


*Lol thanks, I do think he's pretty if I say so myself!*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 31, 2013)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Don't you just loooove Arabians!
> 
> One thing I noticed, is that whether circling to the left or right, he carries his tail to the right, and his nose is tipped slightly to the right, too. Lots of horses are a bit one-sided, but I'm thinking a visit from an equine Chiropractor might be helpful. Of course, it's possible that just doing stretches and limbering exercises may straighten him out, too.


*Thank you Bunny lady! I did notice his tail, but not his nose. If I do end up buying him I will definitely have him adjusted. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 31, 2013)

goodhors said:
			
		

> A Pre-Purchase is as extensive (read expensive) or to the point of
> only specific items, as the prospective buyer chooses to make it.
> Depending on horse price, on cheap ones you might save money just
> taking the animal "as is" over spending a $1000 or more on checking
> ...


*

Thank you Goodhors. This is what I was thinking, he is a "cheap" horse, they are willing to give me the deal of a lifetime on him. The PP Exam could be 1/3 of what he costs, with x-rays it could be 1/2 of what he costs! I am thinking I will do a regular exam and be satisfied with that. My trainer has known him his whole and he has never been overused, never been injured, and is sound. And like you said, it's no guarantee anyway! It's not like I am looking at a $10,000 dollar horse to go do the Tevis with. *


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 31, 2013)

violetsky888 said:
			
		

> Many years ago I had an arabian.  They always seem to have a built in reputation as endurance prospects.  My arabian would be the first to start flagging after a long trail ride. (ten miles+).   He had textbook perfect confirmation, great disposition and willing attitude.  My aunt later took him to nationals in show jumping where he excelled.  He turned out to be much better suited for ring work.   In my lifetime the one horse I couldn't
> tire out and never got the edge off was a big rawboned flat muscled appaloosa.  He was an ex racetrack ponying horse with a huge scopey trot.  The earlier post mentioning the trot as the most important
> feature is true.  I don't think bulging defined muscles makes a good endurance horse.  Confirmation obviously is important but my horse was not perfect, he was a little long bodied and big headed but he moved in a grand style.  You can train any horse into fitness but an endurance horse has to have an efficiency of movement covering a lot of space with little effort.  A horse that isn't moving can only show you obvious confirmation flaws that will break him down.    BTW, many years later the arabian died in his stall in early twenties after having a heart attack.   He had the best of care and should of lived longer.  My biggest worry about the gelding you are thinking about, is having doubts enough to question and wonder if he is a good prospect.  If it is only the contrast between your higher strung mare that has you worried I think you should go with the gelding.  Calm is a good thing.
> 
> ...


*
Hi Violet, 

Thank you for responding. I agree that not all Arabians will make perfect endurance horses, there is just too many variables with how they are made up on the inside, metabolism etc, they are still individuals. 

I agree with the huge trot, the more ground they can cover effortlessly, the easier of a time they will have once they are fit. 

I have taken him out on a few 6 mile rides and he is very calm, but will go when asked and he enjoys it. I really enjoy riding him, it's SO different than the mare.

That is very good to know about the size factor study. The mare I ride is only 14 hands and myself and all the tack is about 200. I am doing regular 12 mile rides with her and she is just fine, but I fear when getting into the 25 milers she will be very worn out. I think this gelding is 15.2 so he fits me much better, and even though he is out of shape when going up hills I can feel his strength, like he has no problem hauling me up them, lol.*


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