# Scabby lumps on one side - soremouth



## Sweetened (Feb 27, 2015)

My bottle vuckling i purchased has scabby feeling lumps along his tummy and up his side in the right side ONLY. They dont look like normal scabs but are flesh coloured, crusty lumps. Is this orf?  He does have a large brown scabbed sore on tge right side of his mouth that hurts him and causes his lip to portrude, its finally going down, but looks different from the soremouth my lambs had when i got them (i had no idea they had it). They/he is not exposed to the sheep and i dont handle the sheep anyway.

He is in with the triplets and i figure its too late, if they are going to get it they will already have it -- they do not share bottles.

I tried to get a look/pictuee of the lumps while attached but they cant be seen
 Here is what one looks like pulled off. And yes, it bleeds.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Feb 28, 2015)

Not sure about the side scabs but given he has it on his mouth, I would strongly suspect soremouth.  Wash your hands well and use gloves.  Not common to catch it but I hear it hurts like heck and takes a long time to heal if you do contract it.  Do you have a picture of his mouth?


----------



## Sweetened (Feb 28, 2015)

I can try and get one tomorrow at morning feeding.

Us this common in bottle babies or...? Ive never had it here otherwise.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 1, 2015)

No clue, but hoping it goes away quickly!


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 1, 2015)

Best i could get. Brown spot towards front of his mouth. The sore is dry and doesnt weep.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 1, 2015)

Yeah, that looks like Orf.  I had one kid with it in with two other kids in our kid pen at the old place.  The other two caught it pretty quickly.  We were freaks about it not spreading.  Bleach foot bath at the doorway into the pen, a spray bottle of strong bleach water hanging by the door, disposable gloves.  It is only deadly if it gets so bad that the kids won't eat or if a secondary infection sets in but I just did NOT want it to get into herd.  It cleared up, they were moved into another pasture (not in with the main herd---they are now and we have not had anymore incidents with it), and that room was severely cleaned.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 1, 2015)

Fabulous. The entire herd has already been exposed to him and an entire pen cleanout is not an option. I will watch everyone and do what i can. I dont know why he would have contracted it, and i would be willing to bet the scabs on his side are from him scratching. Fabulous, i dont have other seperation options. Oi.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 1, 2015)

The scabs have spread up that right side and are now under his arm pits. Is it safe ti ivomec a bottle baby who has, thus far, refused solids?


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 2, 2015)

Ivermectin is safe but it won't treat Orf.  I have not heard of Orf being on the sides.  The lip looks like soremouth, and it can be around tails and armpits...is this something else?


----------



## Hens and Roos (Mar 2, 2015)

Is it possible to post pictures of his sides?  Poor guy(and you) 

Have you checked with the people you got him from if they are having problems?


----------



## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 2, 2015)

That's tough.  We're pulling for you and him!   Please let us know how things go.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 2, 2015)

Could this be mites...mange?  Some uninvited guests travelling on him when you got him?  Is he itchy?  How do the insides of his ears look? 

I once had a lamb get scabs on her mouth, but no where else on her body...I was told basically to leave them alone and not remove them or touch them or treat them and that it was too late to isolate her with any effect...no one else got it and it just went away on its own....NEVER spread to anywhere else on her body but her lips.

It is possible you are dealing with something different here if it continues to spread over more of his body?


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 2, 2015)

It's hard to get pictures of his side, as it is ebedded in the fur.  I called a lady that's about 4 miles from me and raises several hundred head of goats, upwards of 1000 when she kids out and talked to her about it a bit.  She says she sees it on occassion, usually in bottle babies, but randomly throughout the years she will have an outbreak.  She said some goats catch it from others, some mothers end up with it on their bags if they don't have bottle kids and so on.  She HAS seen it on the sides, usually both sides, but she said if the sore is only on one side, it would explain why it's only on the right and only where he could reach.  She is coming out to have a look tomorrow, said there's nothing you can do and she believes they get it when they end up with a cut or abrasion in their mouth or hooves and the virus can enter the skin (he whacked his head on a table while flipping around the livingroom and ripped his lip open).

I thought of mange and parasites, but the hair is not affected, also ruled out staph for the same reason.  I was reading about something called Pear Mouth, as well, which is essentially the same as orf but doesn't appear to be a contagious variety, and starts up when it enters the system through a cut or scrape.  Either way, the entire herd (and myself) is exposed, whether mange or otherwise.  I am going to grab some pour on ivomec if I can get confirmation he's not too young.  I also sprayed him down (face and sides) with diluted grapefruit seed oil, as it's one of the few homeopathic remedies I found.

I did talk to the people I got him from -- she had orf once in sheep several years ago, but nothing since and never in goats, and she doesn't graze that pasture with goats or sheep because of scabs having live viruses for up to 7 years (cows are on there she said, cows dont get it).  She wants me to keep in touch though, and I will.

His mouth bothers him, he does lick at the wound on his mouth, and he doesnt seem itchy when he scratches, rather that he's tender -- and he _only scratches_ that one side.  Doesn't like to be held or picked up, which is unusual for him, and I suspect it's painful.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 2, 2015)

Poor little guy and not happy that you are also exposed.  Wondering where you got your grapefruit seed oil from?  Hoping that helps him!


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 3, 2015)

I get it from the health food store here called Old Fashioned Foods


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 10, 2015)

The three nursing dams outside have painful scabby udders and yet their kids dont have sores, which i am not understanding.  The only one without scabs is the virgin meat doe and gladys, who doesnt have kids on her. What a mess. I figure by the time these girls have shed the scabs and healed up, milking them will be pretty much out of the question as theyll be 3-4 months in without having been milked. As long as im not touchig them, they will allow their kids to nurse.


----------



## Hens and Roos (Mar 10, 2015)

sorry to hear this


----------



## babsbag (Mar 10, 2015)




----------



## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 10, 2015)

That's lousy!  Sorry to hear that.  Hang in there! Hopefully, things will improve.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 10, 2015)

Sorry to hear this!


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 21, 2015)

We lost both Pearl and Edward and are trying to save the mother but i will likely need to cull her. As best as i can figure, her kids died from dehydration or secondary infection. I was letting them drink from her when we unsealed her teats and they were stealing milk from the other does but i dont know if it just wasnt enough or if the orf resulted in a secondary infection. I cannot bring myself to open them up yet, but the weather has turned and they are frozen outside.

Her teets are closed with scabs that must be peeled off daily to milk her out. i figure, even after this has run its course, the constant peeling of her teets will result in her orifices closing.

I am a mess over the helplessness of this sickness and the damage it has done.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 21, 2015)

Oh my gosh I am so so sorry.


----------



## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 21, 2015)

I wish I could offer some advice, but this is something I have no experience with.  So sorry for your losses.


----------



## Southern by choice (Mar 22, 2015)

So sorry Sweetened. 
Does anyone else have this?


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Mar 22, 2015)

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry Sweetened


----------



## Hens and Roos (Mar 22, 2015)

So sorry to hear this


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Mar 22, 2015)

So very sorry...


----------



## norseofcourse (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm so sorry     what a terrible thing to have to deal with


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 22, 2015)

They all have it, southern. Every kid, every mom, even gladys. The only one without it is the red slaughter doe so i am wondering if she wasnt my carrier. The kids on dams had it on their joints at their legs but never their face; the bottle babies had it on their mouths, except virgil, who had it on his sides and scrotum, the girls had/have it on their genitals as well. Gladys has it on her genitals but it hasnt (yet) ended up on her bag even though her bag is tender since she flared up; gretel has it all over her bag but its on the side of her teets, she is still feeding cassenova; flora has it on her bag, it was on her teats but she has shed those scabs, so its just on the back of her bag, she only refused to feed fern a couple times because she had gotten too full, but as soon as she was milked down, she would allow fern to latch. Tootsie had/has it the worst and her bag is covered in huge scabs ranging from the size of a dime to nearly a dollar coin, and the scabs cover the entire tips of both teats about 3/4 of an inch up. All that must be peeled off or she cannot give milk, and it just RIPS flesh. Monday, then the feed store is open, we are going to pick up some metal drains. We will peel the teat again and try and get those drains in thrpigh all the kicking, screaming and flailing. My hope is, itll keep her drained, allow her to heal and keep the orifice open. If not, she will need to be sold for meat once the disease has run its course. And i have nothing to show for her. I wasnt as worried about them as i guess i should have been as they eat well on their own (which never stopped) and have constant water access. Im horrofied, i had made the decision that once she was good and healed (ie not contagious anymore) id get her on a dairy ration, get her production back up and sell her as a milker as she is brilliant on the stand. THAT is now extremely improbable.


----------



## Baymule (Mar 22, 2015)

Wow. That is horrible. I am so sorry.


----------



## babsbag (Mar 23, 2015)

What a heartbreaking frustrating mess, I am so sorry   I would be really careful about the drains and preventing mastitis as I read that staph is a common secondary infection. Some actually suggest that you infuse the udder with antibiotics as a prevention. Are you using any kind of salve on her udder to try and keep the scabs soft?

I felt a little scabby spot on a doe's mouth yesterday and didn't really pay too much attention to it; I will tomorrow. I haven't brought in any new goats since Nov. and no sign of anything on them but I guess now I am paranoid. How long have you had the meat doe and had the buckling been exposed to her? The incubation is only a few days but if a goat is a carrier how do they shed the virus without an active case?

I am very sad for you; I know you have your heart and soul invested in your herd.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 23, 2015)

I will infuse the udder, but im afraid of infusing and leaving it without drains as im worried the teat will seal. We have tried several moisturizers and salves and i have found they have made no difference.

The meat doe was brought here in November as well. She has showed no symptoms but, about a month before kids were born she started a cough. The cough is gone now, but could have been the vector as itcan be spread through the air. Coughing into the feeder and it being consumed could have given it to the dams, dams developed sores with minir abrasions from suckling, kids got it when it was shedding.

Or it came from the buckling, but he didnt get it until he started to be left outside to get used to the herd and then he smashed his face on a table and the resulting scab was soremouth infected.


----------



## babsbag (Mar 23, 2015)

Well if it can be spread in the air by an asymptomatic goat then there is no way to protect a herd other than be entirely closed. And no matter what people say unless you are doing a whole bunch of inbreeding or you never need replacements you can't be entirely closed. You have to at least have a new buck now and then.

I haven't seen that information about spread by air, saliva yes. But I have read that there are carrier animals and that is just confusing to me because if it can only be spread by direct contact with the scabs then how does a carried animal transmit the disease, unless as you say it is by air. I found one article that suggest that the carrier animals actually have it on their skin. Very confusing and a little frightening; especially during kidding season.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 23, 2015)

What i meant by air is the saliva which becomes vaporized during coughing or sneezing, thus making it airborne. I think its like Mareks in that it can probably shed in dander or something as well. But if you think about it, and you dont do a full rub down of every goat every day (i have very little contact with meat animals as to not bond with them), it only takes one scab in the arm pit or tail (which looks like a caked tail until you look closer) to drop and get laid on or picked up or what have you.

I believe closed herds are rare, highly inbred and, if you so much as visit another farm or someone drives onto your property to buy, being closed is a moot issue. Anythig 'as the crow flies', literally, i believe can infect another herd.

My ubderstanding is soremouth is something you will eventually come across if youre in goats or sheep long enough. What confuses me is its a virus, but the only treatmeant its said to respond to is gentian violet. Gentian violet fights candida albicans and is an anti fungal.  

We are going to try the dialators. It cant hurt anymore than ripping scabs/flesh every day. After 24 hours we should be able to only end up with minimal peeling removing the dialator. She is at 3 weeks with the condition so she should only have another week or so before she clears up.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 23, 2015)

I know, I have read that too about the violet treatment and all I could think is that maybe it dried up wounds but it sure doesn't treat the virus.  Folks have different levels of biosecurity and I am sure there are those who will have no infections and then someone doing the EXACT same practice might have an outbreak.  I do try to keep things clean, use different boots when going to outside farms, washing down new animals and quarantining.  "A" for effort but it is no guarantee.  

I feel so badly for you.  You are doing the best you can and this will pass and hopefully soon.  If the dialators seem to help, please share for future reference.  Poor gal has got to be miserable.  The small cases of Orf I have seen were nowhere near this degree.  A friend or ours uses that "vaccine" for this--I use the quotes because it isn't really a vaccine so much as actually GIVING the live virus to your animals, like the past practice of chicken-pox parties.  Yeah, it kinda works but the infection can come back and then is contagious all over again.

If it were possible to pen off any that do not have it, you might prevent it from spreading, but as Sweetened already said, the one critter who doesn't have it may also be the one who brought it in as a carrier.  The pox virus is not airborne, meaning its mode of transportation is not the air like some viruses in which just breathing can transfer the virus even though no close contact was made with an infected party. Coughs and sneezes can aerosolize the virus though, so if an animal is in range of getting sprayed by a sneeze, droplets of saliva can carry this virus as can making contact with the sores, or even contact with the dried scabs that fall on the ground (which is why it is noted that it can persist in the soil).


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 23, 2015)

So sorry it has progressed to this point   Feel so badly for you.  Have had one lamb a few years back that had it on her lips and it went away in a week on its own and no others got it...was hoping the rest of yours would not get it either.  Has to be heartbreaking for you....hoping you have done all you can to keep from getting infected YOURSELF!!! They say it is zoonotic and people can get it, although my not so bright sister in law was kissing that lamb on the lips and by some miracle she didn't get it....so...not sure how easy it transfers to humans?


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 23, 2015)

This disease baffles me, I think it has been ill studied and needs to be looked into more.  They tell you to keep the scabs moist -- if Gentian Violet dries scabs and is effective, then it's counter-intuitive.  It's non responsive to Anti-Virals like Lavender and Oregano Oil, and Grapefruit Seed Extract (A notorious anti-fungal as well that targets Candida Albicans in the same way Violet does.  GSE helped ONE girl, one.  It's not responsive to conventional medications either, as it's a virus, and antibiotics target bacterial life rather than viruses.  Probiotics don't work, it's not effected by gut flora, though I did not try rubbing the teats down with Yogurt -- perhaps I will if this ever happens again.  I found one article that claims if you 'teat wash' 2 or 3 times daily starting the day you have kids on the ground, it'll prevent the infection from reaching the udder, yet no other article says that, and how healthy is that for kids?  The kids on dams NEVER had sores on or in their mouth, I checked.

So a virus, not healed or assisted or thwarted by antivirals, antibacterials, or antifungals with the exclusion of gentian violet -- I would wonder if it's not the dye that inhibits growth.  Much like Salmonella Bacteria is blocked by the pigment in blueberries, I would wonder if the same is the case for Gentian.  

I thank everyone for their thoughts and prayers.  I hope I can care for my baby better than I can my goats, or there's no help for me at all!  My Mom found out one of the girls she worked with had a kid with Chicken Pox and I became that kids best playmate until I contracted it from that group.  Now they promote the Chicken Pox Vaccine, which can (but doesn't always) prevent a child from catching it, but makes them infectious to everyone else, including adults who may not have caught it -- not such a good idea.  A Sore Mouth Vaccine may be helpful for me in the future as it's said to reduce severity of any outbreaks, but any animal with resistance to the virus will then be infected and any evolutionary advancement has been lost.

I will let everyone know how teat dilation goes.  She could use the process anyway considering her orifices are incredibly small.  I have been washing my hands after handling goats and for picking scabs, milking and doing moisturizer rub downs (I've reverted to Swiss Alps Intensive Healing) I wear neoprene gloves, since latex will kill me.


----------



## Baymule (Mar 23, 2015)

Is there a test to determine if a goat or sheep has orf?


----------



## babsbag (Mar 23, 2015)

One of the articles that I read also said you could use campho  phonique, but I am assuming that that is to dry it up not keep it moist. Very frustrating I'm sure. I had fowl pox go through my flock once, reminds me of the same kind of sores. I also read that there is a malignant form of orf and one lady lost 50 goats from it so I guess it is not just the "bother" that I always thought it was. I am very sad for you; I can't imagine your pain.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 23, 2015)

I do wonder if this is a particularly bad strain. There are several mutations of the disease.

Yes, Baymule, orf is identified under a microscope via scabs.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 23, 2015)

I have no doubt you will be a wonderful mother...and this outbreak could have happened to any one of us on here...you have been dealt an awful hand and you are working through it...I admire you and next time I am in Saskatchewan to visit family...I am making a point of meeting you and giving you for real hugs


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 24, 2015)

I appreciate everyones thoughts and prayers.

Teat dialators are a no go. Try as i might, scream as she would, i could NOT get them in to where they wpuld stay. It did help the one teat that is sealing without a scab over the orifice, but im now watching that teat for gangrene as the orifice is black.  She is losing scabs slowly, and only one teat tip needs to be peeled but milking is still painful. Doesnt seem as bad, but is still rough going.

I was going to dry her up, but because i cant get those dialators in, i wont do that. Ill keep her milking until she is all healed up to ensure flow continues and infection is gone/out of the question. Itll also help to rebuild our milking relationship and to stop her from associating the act of milking with pain. Despite all this, she is still giving a liter and a half.

Maybe itll do us all good.


----------



## Southern by choice (Mar 24, 2015)




----------



## Hens and Roos (Mar 25, 2015)

hang in there


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

Last night didnt bode well. While the side with the blackened teat orifice milked without needing to be picked, the other side was extrenely painful and hard, i could not get it milked out, what DID come out was bloody, pussy, and the smell made me gag. I managed to get a teat infuser up there filled with oregano oil and injected it, but couldnt manage to get it in the other teat at all. She is eating, but is clearly not herself, standing hunched up.


----------



## Southern by choice (Mar 26, 2015)

Sounds like it is now bluebag mastitis.  Putting COLD packs on it will reduce swelling and allow you to milk out. Most people will say warm compress, which is normally true but in the case where it is blue bag the cold reduces inflammation so you can milk. You will need to do this 4x a day. You could use "today" but at this point the udder may end up sloughing off.

What is her temperature? 

We had a Kiko doe with this last year and put her down. It ended up being e-coli. We had her necropsied. We treated her for a week, and just couldn't keep the fever down. It stayed at 105-106. She would perk up after some antibiotics and banamine but would go back down within a few  hours. Did the infusers too. The vet that walk us through does a good deal of holistics and natural medicines BUT this vet said naturals would not work in the case of bluebag.

It was hard for us but we did the right thing for her, us and our farm.

Thoughts are with you Sweetened.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

I will not treat her if the infection progresses to bluebag. I will cull her for meat if its viable or burn the carcass. I will try cold packs. The side that has the black teat orifice that i worry about is doing fine, its the other side! Surprised me. What a damn shame it is if we cant salvage anything out of this.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 26, 2015)

yes..thoughts are with you Sweetened and I remember when you were having to deal with that Southern


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

I remember pictures of someone posting blue bag progress with it sloughing.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 26, 2015)

Wish there was better news for you.  It has to be hard.


----------



## KinderKorner (Mar 26, 2015)

I am so sorry this is happening to you.  Sounds like a horrible situation, and you are really doing everything you can.

Reasons like this is exactly why I only buy registered and tested goats. They also all get quarantined. There are too many icky germs out there, and it's just not worth the risk.

I've dealt with CAE and CL and neither were fun, but not nearly as bad as what you are going through. Never again.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

Our space is not conduscive to quarantine. We have a small acreage with cats and wild birds that have access to wherever they feel like whether we want them to or not. Restricting disease flow is just nigh impossible, and the suspected carrier doe WAS effectively quarantined for 2 months prior to being released with the herd because of how she was brought here -- she was not supposed to stay initially.

I have never seen an ad out here 'from orf free herd' and now, id almost prefer if theyd been through it so at least one or two strains were out of the way. Hah!

I dont test for CAE, because i have skewed opi ions on it, and i check for CL before purchasing, but if a goat has internal lesions, one would never know.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 26, 2015)

Tootsie has come off feed, still has fight but is not eating.

Milked out thebside with the black dot on the teat orifice, milk is fine, black dot is removed (scab) and i got her teat infused, MUCH to her dismay.  Got pussy, sour, awful smelling clumpy bloody milk out of the other side, not much, and she is hardened up at the top -- further up, at the top of her attachment, she has a ping pong sized ball with what feels like a vein attached inside the udder (cant be seen, just felt). Not looking good for her. Ill help her as long as she is standing. Got that teat infused as well.


----------



## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 27, 2015)

Hang in there!  What an awful mess.  We're pulling for you!


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 27, 2015)

As of this morning, Tootsie has a lung infection.  I had to go to work, but if she's still alive when I get home, I'll be dosing her with Oxytetracycline.  The dosages I have found listed are for 200mg/1mL (I have 100mg/1mL, so I have doubled the recommended dose).
Fiasco Farm suggests 6ml per hundred pounds once daily (my box says for no less than 5 days, but is off label for goats)
Onion Creek says 2cc per 20lbs , which would work out to a little over 8cc for her.

Which would you suggest to follow?


----------



## Hens and Roos (Mar 27, 2015)

not sure on the dosage.

sorry to hear  hang in there


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 27, 2015)

You are having such a hard time of this and I feel so badly for you!  I am no vet...but first dose of any antibiotic I've had to give horses in the past or a sheep now...I double the first dose only and then go to the recommended dose after that for weight...and if it says for 5 days...I go at least 7 days.  That is from my Dad's advice years ago, and he is not a vet either...but raised cattle and horses his whole life.

Thinking of you Sweetened and sending prayers.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 27, 2015)

I'd got higher dosage, not lower but that's just me.  With so many resistant strains of cooties out there, I'd thunk underdosing worse than slight overdose.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 27, 2015)

Tootsie had passed by the time i got home.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 27, 2015)

I am so so sorry.


----------



## norseofcourse (Mar 27, 2015)

I'm so sorry    I can't imagine how heartbreaking this whole experience has been for you.  I do know that the love and compassion you have for your goats comes through in every one of your posts, and although it may not feel like it right now, I think you take very good care of them.


----------



## Hens and Roos (Mar 27, 2015)

Sweetened said:


> Tootsie had passed by the time i got home.



sorry to hear this


----------



## Southern by choice (Mar 27, 2015)




----------



## Sweetened (Mar 27, 2015)

Thanks guys. Rigor hasnt fully set in, almost, but she gad laid down by the gate in the pen and propped it open. She was starting to bloat up already and god did she smell awful, like sepsis? She smelled like infection and rot.

We are going to treat everyone for worms and watch closely for so much as a cough for now.  I am heartbroken all over again.


----------



## Goat Whisperer (Mar 27, 2015)

I am so sorry Sweetened.

I have been reading your other posts, I honestly don't know what to say. This has been such a hard season for you, and I hope its almost over. I think everyone that has read your posts are just devastated for you. 

Again, I am so sorry. I really don't know what else to say. I wish there was a way to help.


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Mar 27, 2015)




----------



## babsbag (Mar 27, 2015)

There aren't any words that I can say to make it hurt less. This has been a horrible experience all the way around and my heart breaks for you. I am truly sorry. 

Just for future reference, (praying you never need this), I did have a doe with mastitis and the "milk" smelled horrific and it was a watery. smelly, bloody, pus filled liquid that came out when and if I could get it out. She had lumps in the milk that would totally clog up the teat. I would have to open it with a cannula just to get the milk out. It was NOT blue bag. She recoverd fine but mostly likely due to my inexperience and stupidity she lost the use of that half. It still makes milk but the scar tissue is just to severe to get anything out.  If I had to do it again I would have milked her straight through to freshing again just to keep the scar tissue at bay.


----------



## bonbean01 (Mar 28, 2015)

I also have no words...so sorry...sending hugs


----------



## HoneyDreameMomma (Mar 30, 2015)

So sorry.


----------



## Sweetened (Mar 30, 2015)

Thank you everyone.


----------

