# Do You Disbud Your Kids?



## Valais (Apr 24, 2015)

I will not put judgement down on either side, but I was curious what people here think about disbudding kids. I know for some, it is an issue of safety, and first and foremost, that is a priority. While for others, it is an issue of animal welfare, and removing a prominent part of a creature.

Do you disbud your kids? Why do you feel it is necessary?

Do you NOT disbud your kids? Why do you choose not to disbud?

Additionally, for those who do disbud, how do you deal with scur growth? Do you consider dehorning an option?


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 24, 2015)

We disbud our goats.  Why?  Because we show ours in ADGA sanctioned shows and they cannot have horns.
We've never had a major problem with scurs.


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## Valais (Apr 24, 2015)

May I follow up on your answer, OneFineAcre? I was aware of ADGA/4H requirements to have dairy goats disbudded or dehorned. I imagine this is in part due to the safety concern of traditionally being around the public / kids, but do you think it is a fair requirement, and one that is necessary?


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 24, 2015)

We disbud/dehorn for safety and for our kids to be able to show the dairy goats.  Given that we are handling the goats daily and that the goats are so quick with movement, someone or another goat could be seriously injured.  This past winter we had a friends wether stay with us(he was orphaned and it was a cold winter), he had horns and there were several times my DS(10) got bumped in the head by the goat-likely no injuries. 

I think everyone has to decide what is best for their situation.


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## Valais (Apr 24, 2015)

Is it common to have some form of scur growth after the disbudding procedure?


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## newbiekat (Apr 24, 2015)

We didn't disbud our first year and we regret it. My girls are the friendliest things ever, so they're always up in your business. We chose to disbud because there have been a few times when we happened to be standing next to one of our horned girls and she didn't like the fly on her back. Well, wih a flip of her head, she caught my leg and left a pretty good size bruise. I know she didn't mean it, and I think that's most of the issue, they don't realize that they can hurt with them, and I'd rather not run that chance again especially if a little one was in the pen with them.

It is a little discomfort for the goat at the time of,but I think it's harder on us than on the goat lol... Because afterwards we still feel their pain and they hop around like its no big deal. So we don't mind going thru 20 sec of pain to prevent future potential incidents. That's our story


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## Valais (Apr 24, 2015)

A couple good reads on both sides of the fence..

Against: http://ourmountainhearth.com/why-we-dont-dehorn-our-goats/
For: https://fiascofarm.com/goats/disbudding.htm


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 24, 2015)

Valais said:


> May I follow up on your answer, OneFineAcre? I was aware of ADGA/4H requirements to have dairy goats disbudded or dehorned. I imagine this is in part due to the safety concern of traditionally being around the public / kids, but do you think it is a fair requirement, and one that is necessary?


I do not know why it is required, and not knowing why it would be difficult to determine if it is a fair or necessary requirement.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 24, 2015)

Valais said:


> Is it common to have some form of scur growth after the disbudding procedure?


We have not had a big problem with scurs.


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## Sweetened (Apr 24, 2015)

I do not disbud. Would i for health reasons? Yes, i would dehorn for health reasons as well.

Flora and gladys, of whom have very large horns, are very space aware. They are sisters and lay with eachother with horns close to eyes and noses and such and, while dangerous, goats have evolved this way. People allow their children to play with plastic and wooden swords, the danger is equally there.

I have owned polled and disbudded goats as well. I have found them equally dangerous with horns than without. You just have damage option: goring/puncturing or blunt force trauma. I had a polled doe kill a kid out of the blue by sheer pummling force where as my horned girls that have a baby thats not theres get too close will flip kids rather than trample them to death.

I have also found my horned goats do better in the hot summer days. Their horns are blazingly warm as they exaust heat. My polled or dehorned goats lay panting in the fields or under trees.

I dont wrong people for doing it, but after aquiring our buck, sven, and having to deal with his potentially life threatening scurrs with saws or clips, i wouldnt risk that again.


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## GLENMAR (Apr 28, 2015)

We disbud all of ours. We have registered Nubians. I don't normally show, but may end up selling a goat to someone who wants to. When we bought the goats there was never any question in my mind that we would be disbudding. That was one of the first things that I had the breeder show us how to do. I now do several every year for other goat people.


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## babsbag (Apr 28, 2015)

I disbud mine, including most of the boys. If they are going to go as pets most people want the horns off; if they are going in a ADGA show no horns so it is a pretty easy choice.  I have raised Boers and the horns stay as they had to if they were showing, unless they were fair market wethers, then for safety the horns had to be gone.

Once you find a dead goat in a fence that was caught by her horns and spent the day there in 100°+ degree weather you might think twice about disbudding. Or find one stuck in the fork in a tree. It is amazing where they can get stuck; even with 2x4 no climb wire I have them get stuck in other places.

No horns here. Also dairy goats' udders appreciate their herd mates no having horns.

My fences and my feeders appreciate no horms.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 28, 2015)

X a million!

My first goat death was a horned doe who got hung in a hay bag, got it twisted around her neck and must have died a horrible death....  Never bought another horned goat and learned to disbud immediately thereafter!  

Oh, and taking a blow to the knee cap by a horned buck wasn't any fun either!


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## babsbag (Apr 29, 2015)

I will say that on my Boer buck the horns make a great steering wheel. It is actually very easy to control a goat with horns but I still prefer no horns. Also the Boers' horns grow a little closer to the skull than the dairy breeds and they don't seem to get the stuck as readily. That being said, when they DO get stuck, the are really really stuck. I have a feeder that I built with panels from Premier1 and the openings are 3x5 and one of my Boers got a horn wedged in it and thought I was going to have to cut the panel. I got her out and fortunately she didn't break her neck thrashing about, she was panicked...for that matter I was too.


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## Valais (Apr 29, 2015)

Further reading:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/goats-horns-or-no-horns.aspx
https://pt-br.facebook.com/EskKikoGoats/posts/128989643968176
http://goatberries.com/2011/03/horns-or-no-horns-on-goats-which-is-better/
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/heatstress.html

I think the main points on both sides of the fence, are that disbudding is done for safety reasons, both for the safety of the goat, and the safety of the humans. Additionally, in the United States, it is done for the purpose of showmanship.

On the flip side, people against disbudding argue that freak accidents are bound to happen, whether a goat has horns or not. Proper atmosphere and handling will decrease the chances of any incident occurring, and horns are not only a beautiful part of a goat, but they are natural defense against heat exhaustion, and a defense mechanism against predators.

I would agree, that whenever possible, we should not be removing parts of an animal, unless deemed absolutely necessary. It seems they general consensus is split, with disbudding primarily being common practice in the United States.


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## Sweetened (Apr 29, 2015)

I will say i had a goat who i took out of a fence 26 times in one day. My other horned goats trained with a stick of shame (dowel or stick strapped to their horns to make them wider), but not that goat. As with all my horned girls who have ever been stuck, they dont panic, they just hang out and wait, because they know ill get them.

I think goats lacking horn awareness is something that has been bred in from lack of selection for animals who have that sense. I look at it almost like Nubians having lost their mothering instinct in our area due to the CAE prevention program. Animals who are crap mothers are not doscovered because theopportunity isnt there and it perpetuates a cycle.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 29, 2015)

Horns are amazingly pretty.  A nearby farmer who I don't know has a huge fenced in wood lot and has what I think may be Spanish goats (hard to get a good look because they are not often near the road and it is a very big area they are in).  They are magnificent!  

But I do disbud.  Why? 

I have been stabbed in the thigh with those horns.  
I have left them on and have to fish them out of the fence daily. 
I have had close friends lose their goats after getting caught in a fence despite their attempts to keep them out.
I have heard of people with mixed herds who have had serious injuries to animals due to those with horns.
I have small children (mine, neighbors, nieces, nephews) who love to play with the goats and it would only take an accidental toss of the head to lose an eye.
I milk and horn are a pain when it comes time to put them in a stand.

I don't at all judge the reasons others give for keeping them but for me, it is a trade off.  I will feed them, maintain their health, protect them from predators, and give them lots of love---but I don't want to deal with the risk or hassle of horns when the procedure is very quick and done.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 29, 2015)

And just for a laugh---the "bumble bee" goat who stabbed my leg.  Yup.  Golf balls drilled out in the center and attached with colorful electrical tape.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 29, 2015)

The golf balls of shame.....


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## Valais (Apr 29, 2015)

I am surprised you manage to keep those golf balls on. I would have expected them to be rubbed off in a matter of hours, haha.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 30, 2015)

Nope, they were tight.  Stayed on until freezer camp.  He was really mad though but it at least blunted those spears he had going on.


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## Valais (Apr 30, 2015)

I did a little reading on this, and I guess it is common practice for some folks to tape tennis balls up there:







I'm undecided, but these kids might be even cuter with tennis balls on their horns.

Another alternative I read about, was to use Kong dog toys:
https://www.google.com.ph/search?q=...GzmAXx8oHwBA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=643


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## TAH (Apr 12, 2016)

I know this is a old post but I thought I would share on why we don't dis-bud. Here are all my reasons,
There horns cool them off during the summer.
There horns are part of them.
Almost all goats have some brain damage even if it is not something you can tell.
If I ever end up showing my goats, all the does I would show are dis-buded. But I prefer to have them with horns.
If we have someone that wants the goat that they buy from us dis-buded I would be happy to do so.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 12, 2016)

TAH said:


> Almost all goats have some brain damage even if it is not something you can tell.


Do you have an article on this? Never heard of that one before. If it is something you cannot tell, how do you know there is brain damage? 

I haven't noticed a difference between horned and disbudded goats when it comes to the heat, I still need to clip down the horned goats to keep them cool…


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## TAH (Apr 12, 2016)

I am not sure how they came to that conclusion on brain damage but i have heard it from many people. I will find the website.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 12, 2016)

That would be good info. Honestly, unless there is real documentation (IOW not someone with a blog stating silly claims as facts) I am very skeptical.

A lot also has to do with the iron used, tip used, burn time, etc.


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## TAH (Apr 12, 2016)

I can't find anything actually stating that it is brain damage. They say it is because after de-horn the goat they never act the same.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 12, 2016)

Something must be wrong in the way they do it. We have disbudded many many kids and after about 2 minutes they are back to their puppy-dog self. Coming when I call them, chugging down a bottle, bouncing off anything they can. 

Generally when you have goat that never act the same, something went wrong. 

Do you know the protocol they use?


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## TAH (Apr 12, 2016)

Here is the website. I have found several others that say the same thing. 
http://ourmountainhearth.com/why-we-dont-dehorn-our-goats/


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## babsbag (Apr 12, 2016)

I agree with @Goat Whisperer that I don't see any difference between a kid that is disbudded and one that isn't; and I have both. They don't seem to even notice it if it is done right.


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## TAH (Apr 12, 2016)

Is there away that could be when people hold it on there head for to long? Cause I have heard of people holding pon to long.


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## babsbag (Apr 12, 2016)

I just read that link you posted and I dare say I completely disagree. I have 40 disbudded goats and they don't scratch their heads any more than they do there necks and their sides. I seldom see an adult goat scratch their head with a foot. 

I have never had a kid run a fever after disbudding, I have never had brain damage, never had lethargy, and the baby goat starts screaming as soon as it is confined, not the minute it is touched by the iron. They hate to be "trapped". 

Scurs can be a problem, but they can either be clipped as adults or reburned as kids, I have done both. 

As far as the heat, it gets 110° here on a regular basis all summer long. My goats have shade, water, and damp dirt to lay in. I never seem them pant, horned or otherwise.


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## babsbag (Apr 12, 2016)

TAH said:


> Is there away that could be when people hold it on there head for to long? Cause I have heard of people holding pon to long.



Yes, kids have died from disbudding incorrectly. But I know of many many many people that disbud and I bet collectively there are 400-500 kids done a year just in my circle of friends and in 7 years I know of only one kid dying.  He had been sedated before the procedure too and it could have been the sedation as much as the disbudding. Goats don't sedate well. 

The first time a person fishes a dead goat stuck by their horns out of fence or feeder they might think again. Or the first time a goats rips open a herd mates udder or eye. Or the first time they themselves get skewered just by an innocent head toss. or the first time... 

No horns on my goats unless they are Boers that will be shown or wethers destined for the freezer before the horns have a chance to mature. Boers don't seem to use their horns like weapons the way dairy goats do.


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## TAH (Apr 12, 2016)

Here is other website I found. 
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/disbudding.html


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## babsbag (Apr 13, 2016)

If a person wants to show their goats in many fairs or any ADGA sanctioned shows they have to be hornless. Even Boer goats have to be hornless for the junior livestock auctions in my county, not sure about other places. Children showing goats may know how to handle them but seriously it only takes a toss of the head and the child standing next to them can be hurt. Those rules are there for a reason. If it was one goat and one child, maybe, but the ring is full of youth exhibitors and it is just too easy to get distracted. 

If you have ever walked among a herd of 40 goats all clamoring for your attention or the feed you are carrying you will be very happy for no horns. It isn't that I don't know how to handle a goat, but I can't handle 40 of them at once.  Grabbing a goat by a collar when they have horns can be painful when the goat tosses their head back and smashes your finger between their horns and their neck.  I also have bruises on my knees just from the goats bumping and pushing me, thank goodness no horns. 

If horns are all so darn important what about the goat that is polled? Are they a lesser goat, doomed to be at the bottom of the herd and die of heat? NO !!! My herd queen is polled and she does just fine. Goats can get pushy with each other and if the author of that last article thinks that the horns are a defense then doesn't it make sense that they could choose to use them as a "weapon" on each other as well? 

@Southern by choice has a picture of her goat's horns that have been filed to a razor sharp tip, and the goat did the sharpening.  They were nothing but dangerous for any man or beast. I can't imagine my LGD trying to avoid horns either; especially a puppy. Maybe we are smart enough to avoid them but is a dog? Or how about the kid (goat) that tries to sneak a snack from the doe that isn't their mom and then in turn gets butted away?   

If a person chooses not to disbud that is certainly their choice, it just isn't one that I will make. Don't think that I am trying to "win the debate"; I just think that there a valid reasons for disbudding and that some of the excuses for not doing it are pretty lame.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 13, 2016)

I am with babs reasoning. The what if's are too many and too horrific to even risk. We will be getting our buckling done by someone experienced in my area who has been doing it for many years knowing he will be sold next year. Even the nicest and most well behaved goats can cause serious injury. ever milk and have a head come back just out of habit from the doe? YOUR eye could be gone in a heartbeat if that ever happened. And if selling goats, I want to make sure those getting them are safe as well as my own animals. I heard when I first started that if one goat is horned and the rest are not, it could be asking for trouble or injuries when plays for dominance occur. Some do just fine while others will wreak havoc on any and everything. To each their own but I wouldn't buy one with horns unless it were a boer. My safety, kids safety and our other animals safety is too valuable for me to gamble with it.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 13, 2016)

Perhaps if we don't wish to do an 'unnatural' disbudding procedure then we should do nothing else 'unnatural' to a goat?   Maybe we shouldn't feed them?  or give them vaccinations?  or even treat them when they are ill?

We've taken goats out of their 'natural' habitat and in doing so we've taken on the responsibility to give them the best care that we can.  I can't give my goats a thousand acres so that they can get away from the bully with the biggest horns - but I can take away the bully's weapon.

My goats don't have the freedom to roam anywhere they choose to pick the best browse possible, but I can try to give them the best diet possible.

Horns in a confined area are not only detrimental to pen/herd mates and handlers, they can be detrimental to the goat itself. 

Just my opinion and my practice.


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## TAH (Apr 13, 2016)

I totally understand all your reasons. This is just how I feel about it. This thread is for you to put how you fell about it. And like I said I would be happy to have someone dis-bud my goat if it needs it. But I have had no issue so far. My Nubian wether has horns and will be 2 this year and has never hurt anyone and he has little kids ride him. Now I would never trust a billy with horns. I don't even trust him without horns.


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## maritown (Apr 13, 2016)

I agree that it's 100% a personal choice and with so many people in different situations with different horror stories you are bound to hear some strong opinions on both sides of the fence.  That being said, I find a lot of these pro disbudding arguments to come across a little "you need to take them off or your goat will hurt you and every animal you have".  Well, yes...but so will many livestock as they are large and react differently than people to scary situations.
That being said, I've worked on a large scale dairy that disbudded and I see why.  They ran large herds and didn't have time to check on goats every hour.  They switched goats around often and had kids and unexperienced people around for tours frequently.  They sold a lot of babies.  For their size, needs, and local market disbudding was the right choice.
For me, I don't disbud.  I have a small herd and work on the farm full time so I am always around.  The horns make them very easy to handle while trimming, giving medications etc.  My girls lived in a horned herd and are also very spatically aware.  That being said, I don't put my face near their horns.  This isn't a down side for me and I look at it the same as not walking behind a horse.  I also don't have children handling my goats so it is not a concern, and I don't breed to sell babies.  
I have not noticed disbudded vs horned goats acting any differently.  I have one disbudded buck and a polled buck, two horned does.  They all are equally happy and as I have a pasture filled with stumps and trees my goats don't touch the fencing. Do whats right for your situation and future plans


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 13, 2016)

I always read about there being "strong opinions" on both sides.

I don't have a strong opinion about what someone else chooses to do or not do with their animals.

I also don't have a need to convince them that what they are doing is wrong and what I'm doing is right.

If you don't want to disbud your goats and you want them to have horns, well I say go for it.  You don't have to explain why.

If you want to disbud your goats, it's your right to do so.  You don't have to explain.


In this article, there are "facts" that are just plain made up :  I wouldn't take anything they said about anything very seriously.
But again, I really don't care what their opinion is.

http://ourmountainhearth.com/why-we-dont-dehorn-our-goats/


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## Fullhousefarm (Apr 13, 2016)

We disbud. In fact this is our third year having babies born here and the first year I have done all the disbudding myself. It's not fun, but not as bad as I thought it would be.

Why?
-We show registered dairy goats. Goats with horns can't be shown.
-I milk twice a day. Getting clobbered by a goat is no laughing matter. I'd have had ER visits if all the goats had horns. Not because the goats are mean (well, one is evil...) but because it's close quarters.
-I have young kids. Accidents happen and I don't need another way for them to get hurt.
-Safety of the other goats. Accidents happen between goats too. I know of one who lost an eye because his brother poked it out with a horn.


We do have one unregistered Nigerian Dwarf with horns. (We have Nigerians and Lamanchas.) She was given to me with her naturally polled sister. She's generally not a problem has her horns point back and she isn't mean (or the boss).Because she's knew height the risk is less and she hasn't been a problem, In fact, she was nice enough to head but my buck enough when she was getting bred that it saved me having to cut off his scur. LOL. If her horns ever because a problem I'd sell her rather than have her dehorned since that's such a horrific procedure. All her kids get disbudded.

If I had a customer who wanted horns on their goat I'd happily sell them one. I'd just require pickup or a full deposit by 2 weeks (if I was willing to sell as a bottle baby- I'm not always willing)  since my market wants all disbudded goats. If I had goats on acres and acres, and wasn't milking I'd be much more ambivalent about horns I'm sure.


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