# Early Spring breeding....NOT



## Hopalong Causually (Feb 13, 2018)

I thought I'd try and get an early start on some Spring litters.  Study of the calendar showed that today should be the day to breed for having kits when I wanted them.  I have one buck and three does.  Tried the highest priority doe with him and got nowhere.  She clamped down tight to the cage floor and did nothing but utter a little whimpering cluck type noise.  45 minutes later the buck just gave up trying.  Doe number two was an exact repeat of number one.  Twenty minutes with the buck got not even one fall-off.  Doe number three has been my best producer so far with two successive litters of nine.  She was even more vocal than the other two with that whimpering cluck but more numerous and louder.  Again, not one fall-off.  I took her out, too, in total defeat.  Is the noise they were making what people call, "growling?"  I sure wanted today to be the day but the does decided otherwise.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 13, 2018)

Regardless of the sound the doe makes, I have one doe that has just always been difficult about accepting a buck. In her case, she takes a dominate role and just wears a buck completely out so he gives up. I have taken to pulling her forward and holding her head down gently but firmly for a least two fall offs twice within a 12-hour period.

When she was younger, I could put her in the buck's cage one day and whether I repeated that every day or just once a week later, she would accept the buck one day a week later as if she never had a problem. But as she got older that did not work either so I assist when she being difficult.


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## promiseacres (Feb 13, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> Regardless of the sound the doe makes, I have one doe that has just always been difficult about accepting a buck. In her case, she takes a dominate role and just wears a buck completely out so he gives up. I have taken to pulling her forward and holding her head down gently but firmly for a least two fall offs twice within a 12-hour period.
> 
> When she was younger, I could put her in the buck's cage one day and whether I repeated that every day or just once a week later, she would accept the buck one day a week later as if she never had a problem. But as she got older that did not work either so I assist when she being difficult.


Do you find lower conception rates when you"assist" ?


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 13, 2018)

@promiseacres Lower than zero?  

Seriously, though. That doe is a Silver Fox with records of 5 to 9 kits, typically 6 to 7. She is also four years old and had 5 kits last time which is under her average, but considering her age, I think assisting has not lowered the number of kits she produced.

Not saying that could be a problem for other does, I just have not really seen it with this one.


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## promiseacres (Feb 13, 2018)

I assist with my velveteen lops fairly often as bucks aren't super aggressive when breeding...  lately just no litters...


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## secuono (Feb 13, 2018)

They may be induced ovulators, but they still go through cycles where they are more receptive.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 13, 2018)

promiseacres said:


> I assist with my velveteen lops fairly often as bucks aren't super aggressive when breeding...  lately just no litters...





Did I forget to add that I look her straight in the eyes and tell her this is going to happen so she be a mother to more sweet, beautiful babies?


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## BoboFarm (Feb 13, 2018)




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## Hopalong Causually (Feb 14, 2018)

"Did I forget to add that I look her straight in the eyes and tell her this is going to happen so she be a mother to more sweet, beautiful babies?"

I looked them in the eyes, the ears, the nose, the mouth, and other places I won't mention but it didn't do any good.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 14, 2018)

Hopalong Causually said:


> I looked them in the eyes, the ears, the nose, the mouth, and other places I won't mention but it didn't do any good.



But did you say _the words_? They like listening to encouraging words...hence the very big ears. 

It may just have been too cold. I have not had bucks go sterile during the winter, even this winter which was definitely colder for longer periods than most, but it may be yours have not had enough milder weather to recuperate...?


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## Hopalong Causually (Feb 14, 2018)

I have them in a heated structure so the cold shouldn't be an issue.  I don't know exactly what "the" words are, but I did tell them that, if they don't cooperate soon, they'll be dinner.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 14, 2018)

@Hopalong Causually I would just keep introducing the does to the buck. If they have had a break from breeding, it may take a few days to get more hormonally compliant. And as @secuono stated, does do have cycles. I never had a problem with any of mine, except that one and it really had nothing to do with her cycle...just attitude...but she is a really great mother and a sweet rabbit otherwise so I just deal with her breeding eccentricities.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 15, 2018)

promiseacres said:


> Do you find lower conception rates when you"assist" ?



I remember reading an article in Domestic Rabbits many years ago about a study done with the cooperation of some commercial rabbitries. Does were bred as scheduled, but if they bred on their own, it was noted down, and if they didn't, they were force bred and that was noted down, too. They were then palpated, etc, as per usual. In the group that bred voluntarily, the conception rate was over 80%, while in the ones that were force bred it was only about 20%. Clearly, the rabbits knew something that the schedule didn't.

Rabbits respond more to light than to temperature. A heated building may not make a difference as to whether rabbits will breed during cooler parts of the year, but the use of artificial lighting to effectively lengthen their daylight hours can be helpful.


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## promiseacres (Feb 15, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> I remember reading an article in Domestic Rabbits many years ago about a study done with the cooperation of some commercial rabbitries. Does were bred as scheduled, but if they bred on their own, it was noted down, and if they didn't, they were force bred and that was noted down, too. They were then palpated, etc, as per usual. In the group that bred voluntarily, the conception rate was over 80%, while in the ones that were force bred it was only about 20%. Clearly, the rabbits knew something that the schedule didn't.
> 
> Rabbits respond more to light than to temperature. A heated building may not make a difference as to whether rabbits will breed during cooler parts of the year, but the use of artificial lighting to effectively lengthen their daylight hours can be helpful.


do you know if the color of light makes a difference? I currently use a red light...seems to have worked in the past until this year.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 15, 2018)

promiseacres said:


> do you know if the color of light makes a difference? I currently use a red light...seems to have worked in the past until this year.



@promiseacres 
Now you are talking in my area of research, some twenty years work with the physiological and psychological effects of frequencies, harmonics, and colored light. Scarlet, blue based red (think of the reddest of apples and not tomato, an orange based red) would be ideal for stimulating reproductive organs and hormones. But any red light from magenta to red a bit on the orange side would be good. (I hope to one day have a magenta greenhouse and rabbitry, best color for plants, but animals also.)

However, red can also stimulate aggressive. Think of the red cape in a bull fight. It can also over stimulate to the point of being ineffective if used too much. Also, the red coloring of the light can fade, creating more of a pink and that can be less effective for your specific purpose.

The animal does not need to "see" the colors to be stimulated by the energy, frequencies, or vibrations (whatever you prefer to call it) of the color.


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## Bossroo (Feb 15, 2018)

Tale of Tails Rabbitry said:


> @promiseacres
> Now you are talking in my area of research, some twenty years work with the physiological and psychological effects of frequencies, harmonics, and colored light. Scarlet, blue based red (think of the reddest of apples and not tomato, an orange based red) would be ideal for stimulating reproductive organs and hormones. But any red light from magenta to red a bit on the orange side would be good. (I hope to one day have a magenta greenhouse and rabbitry, best color for plants, but animals also.)
> 
> However, red can also stimulate aggressive. Think of the red cape in a bull fight. It can also over stimulate to the point of being ineffective if used too much. Also, the red coloring of the light can fade, creating more of a pink and that can be less effective for your specific purpose.
> ...


You state that red light stimulates aggression, however red lights are used to stop canibalism in poultry houses , pheasant and quail pens.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 15, 2018)

Bossroo said:


> You state that red light stimulates aggression, however red lights are used to stop canibalism in poultry houses , pheasant and quail pens.



My understanding of how that works has to do with tricking the eyes. Chickens like to pick at things that are red - i.e, bloody. When the only available light is in the red frequencies, blood appears to be black, not red, so it doesn't get the same reaction.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 15, 2018)

@promiseacres I know that it sounds counterintuitive but if red lights are used continuously, it would over stimulate that aggressive tendency to the point that it is not effective as a stimulant and have a depressant affect on the aggressive tendecies. There are therapeutic methods of using certain colors of light for short periods but long periods can be suppressive or have the opposite expected affect.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 15, 2018)

I also found this interesting study about red light and chickens : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24795325


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## promiseacres (Feb 15, 2018)

Generally use the heat lamps at night only...  and none are acting aggressive just clamping those tails down.


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## Hopalong Causually (Feb 16, 2018)

Interesting conversation.  I'm going to use a timer and give them two hours more light each day for a week and then try breeding them again.  I'll report on the results.


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## MWind (Feb 21, 2018)

We have learned that it is best to simulate spring about two weeks before we plan to breed. We do this by putting a heat lamp with just a regular 100 watt bulb on a timer so that it is daylight for 12 hours in the barn. We place it on the end with our does. This gets their bodies into thinking it is spring time in January or February. If you don't have a heated barn then you would probably want to use the heat lamp bulb instead so that the temp is between 50-60 degrees during those two weeks.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 21, 2018)

We generally have 50-60deg temps occasionally in February. That is when I shoot for breeding. I open the shed doors at 50degs and let them have air and natural light. If I can get an empty cage next to a buck or doe wanting bred, I put the two in proximity to each other. Temp goes up a little and they have enjoyed some "Spring" temps and get frisky, it's time.


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## Hopalong Causually (Feb 24, 2018)

It has now been a week since I left the light on in the rabbit shed for an additional 2 hours each night.  I tried all three does with my buck over the past two days.  The oldest doe raised for one quick fall-off and allowed one more fall-off about fifteen minutes later before she decided that was enough yesterday.  My most productive doe went through a similar routine today with two fall-offs and then a lot of vocal grumbling until I took her out.  I tried my youngest doe today, too.  She is almost a year old and absolutely refused the buck for ten minutes before trying to mount him.  This behavior threw me for a loop and I immediately pulled her out.  I'll give her one more week with the extended lighting of the shed and try again for the third time.  That may be her last chance.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 24, 2018)

Hopalong Causually said:


> She is almost a year old and absolutely refused the buck for ten minutes before trying to mount him.  This behavior threw me for a loop and I immediately pulled her out.  I'll give her one more week with the extended lighting of the shed and try again for the third time.  That may be her last chance.



The first time I saw this behavior with a first-time doe, I pulled her out to check that she really was a doe.

And she is still the one that is difficult to breed: runs the buck, backs into a corner, will not lift, humps him when he is too tired out, chasing her and then being chased by her, to try (no matter which buck), but she does motherhood well and has big meaty babies, so I put up with her and assist. Only twice did she ever just accept the buck without her "ritual" but that was after a week or two after the first try _and the many that followed_. Then that did not work either, so....


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 25, 2018)

This response by the doe tells you and the buck she is responsive. Leave her in there because she is ready to let him mount her.


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## Bunnylady (Feb 25, 2018)

I had one doe years ago that always fought the buck. I don't know if she just wanted to know if he was "man enough" or what, but I figured, as long as it didn't get too intense, just wait and watch. After a few minutes of fireworks, she would let him breed her. This doe also did absolutely no nest preparation until mere minutes before kindling, but when she started, it was Katy bar the door, she made the fur fly! Great mother; she just had her way of doing things.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 25, 2018)

Pastor Dave said:


> This response by the doe tells you and the buck she is responsive. Leave her in there because she is ready to let him mount her.



I _*SO*_ wish that were true with my doe, but apparently she did not get that memo. 

I watched her in a buck's cage for hours at a time and she just continued to wear him out until they both went to sleep.   I thought I could out last her once, but she did the same thing day after day for two weeks. She has been a good producer, just a more than reluctant participant in the actual 5-second mating process.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 25, 2018)

Bunnylady said:


> I had one doe years ago that always fought the buck. I don't know if she just wanted to know if he was "man enough" or what, but I figured, as long as it didn't get too intense, just wait and watch. After a few minutes of fireworks, she would let him breed her. This doe also did absolutely no nest preparation until mere minutes before kindling, but when she started, it was Katy bar the door, she made the fur fly! Great mother; she just had her way of doing things.



 

Well, my doe does not fight him, just runs around, and when he gives up, she humps him until she gives up, and a few minutes later they do this whole ritual again and then again...and so it goes until they both give up and fall asleep. However, I do think that same doe has the same nesting genes yours did.


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## Hopalong Causually (Feb 25, 2018)

Well, what I think I learned from this is that the durn things have enough individuality as to show the folly of making generalizations.  I keep trying to figure out what this or that behavior indicates and, sometimes, it doesn't indicate anything.  It's just one rabbit being itself.

I'll give this youngest doe one more try in about another week and let her with the buck for a longer time.  It looks like the other two does have been bred and I really didn't want to have three litters all at the same time anyway.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 25, 2018)

Hopalong Causually said:


> Well, what I think I learned from this is that the durn things have enough individuality as to show the folly of making generalizations.  I keep trying to figure out what this or that behavior indicates and, sometimes, it doesn't indicate anything.  It's just one rabbit being itself.



Yep. Generally generalizations work...except with the exceptions. 

Good luck.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 26, 2018)

The studies about red lights were interesting.  I am in southern California and was able to breed all year round.  We do get cold temps here, but the reason I was able to keep my does receptive was because I used regular lights in my barn all year to keep the "daylight" long.  I bred continuously year round.  We also used heat lamps when necessary but here a regular 100 watt bulb sufficed for warmth.  My 4-H kids would only breed for the fair and then couldn't figure out why their does would not breed the following year.  Giving them a "vacation" is bad for their breeding cycle,  In the wild rabbits breed constantly depending on season, and are most fertile a week after giving birth.  Consequently in the wild the doe will kindle again 5 weeks after a litter and abandon the month old kits. 
That said, if you want to breed year round, you have to mimic not the warmth but the daylight hours.  I did the same thing to keep my chickens laying all year.  It sounds like the increase in light hours did the trick on the does.  The younger one is ready to breed too since her humping the buck is a sign of readiness in an inexperienced doe.  If you put her in a cage next to the buck for a couple days then put her back in with him she should breed.  I have also switched cages - doe with buck - and it works.  If she still tries to hump him, hold her still by the head so the buck can mount her and she should rise for him.  Rabbit foreplay can be exhausting for the male LOL and can out off a young buck so I used to put my first time does with experienced bucks and use young first time bucks on my experienced "welcoming" does.  It makes for a good experience all around.
Another tip if you have a doe that doesn't want to breed is to put her in a carrier and take her for a ride in the car, then breed her.  We used this all the time when we bred Champagnes which is a breed notorious for not wanting to rise for the buck.
If you eventually have a doe that absolutely will not breed, think peas, carrots and potatoes!  Good Luck!


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Feb 26, 2018)

@Ridgetop Great advice! Neighboring cages have an effective way to introduce a first timer for me also.


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## Ridgetop (Feb 26, 2018)

We don't have rabbits anymore.    Really sad since we all love rabbit and dumplings LOL.  We raised NZW and Cals along with Hollands, Havanas, Champagnes, etc. for variety.  My main love was Cals.  Easy to manage, calm temperaments, good mommas, made fryer weight in 6-8 weeks.  We have been toying with the idea of breeding them again but have a lot going on right now.  Also, getting older and are wondering about the advisability of going back into breeding when we have started traveling a bit.  W still have all our equipment, babysaver 36x30 cages, watering system parts, etc.)  All those litters were a lot of fun, easy to keep - we hung the cages in our pole barn over worm pits with automatic waterers and misters.  With our adult children at home, they could take care of the rabbits along with the sheep when we go out of town too, right?  It might be fun to go to rabbit shows again, along with playing bridge!  LOL   We keep thinking about it - they were DH's delight so a good hobby to get him moving around outside.  He is pretty stove up (his knees are shot) and can't really do as much with the large stock any more, but rabbits are much easier to handle and we really enjoyed breeding, raising, showing, and eating them.


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## Hopalong Causually (Mar 2, 2018)

Good news today.
After another week with the extra two hours/day of artificial light, I tried the youngest doe again.  She raised and provided a fall-off within thirty seconds.  Then she went back to burying in a corner and grumbling.  I let her in the buck's cage for another forty-five minutes whereupon she started climbing on the buck and then raised again for a second fall-off.  Why argue with success, so I let her in there a while longer and got a third fall-off in another fifteen minutes.  I now should have three pregnant does.  Might have to do some scrambling for cage space come grow-out time


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## Hopalong Causually (Mar 31, 2018)

Update time.

My oldest doe failed to come through.  Today is day 36 and no kits or any indication that she is near kindling.  So, I gave her another go at the buck.  Two fall-offs in the first five minutes, then two more in the next hour.  She is three years old so this may be her last chance to give me the buck I want from her.

My broken doe kindled four days ago and had nine again for the third time.  This time, she had them all in the nestbox and, so far, all are thriving.

My youngest doe, which is the daughter of the oldest doe and my lone buck, is at day 29 today.  She is one year old and this is her first litter.  She nipped me today when I changed out her nestbox for a bigger one.  By this afternoon, she had begun pulling hair and had it all in the box.  It looks like her instincts are all pulling in the right direction.


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## promiseacres (Mar 31, 2018)




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## Hopalong Causually (May 2, 2018)

Update time.

The youngest doe kindled three overnight a month ago but none survived till morning.  She appeared to do EVERYTHING wrong.  I re-bred her and she now appears to be carrying about 20 kits and is due next week.  She is mega-huge.  She tried to throw herself down on her side today, as they are prone to do, but her oversized abdomen rolled her back over on her belly.  She'll get her nestbox before the weekend.

In spite of what looked like a classic textbook breeding, my oldest doe did it again today - - kindled a grand total of one.  I've been trying for two years to get a buck from her.  In five breedings now, she has produced a total of seven kits.  Only one of the first six was a buck and it died at five weeks of age.

On the plus side, the broken doe that kindled nine did a tremendous job and all nine are doing great.


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## promiseacres (May 2, 2018)

Ahh the joys of doe code.


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