# Chewy



## bethh (Jan 16, 2019)

Chewy went for his vet visit yesterday and now weighs 31.8lbs, up almost 10lbs from 3 weeks ago.  I got upsetting news though. At his first visit, he was diagnosed with a grade 3 heart murmur.  The vet said lets not worry about it and I'll re-evaluate it at his next visit in 3 weeks.  Well, its changed, not for the better.  She said that he needs to see a cardiologist.  I'm trying to be positive but I usually see the glass as half full.  My DH said at least he came to our house because we will give him lots of love.  I'm waiting on the referral to come through so we can take him and at least see what is going on and what he needs.

I do have a question though about Pyr puppy behavior.  We've had many puppies over the years and when they are his age (almost 3months).  They are wild and crazy, running around like maniacs.  Thats not him.  He will play some but not the crazy puppy.  Are most Pyr puppies more laid back?  I'm trying to see if his behavior is the norm or is it because he has a heart condition. 

One more question, if any of you breed and sell LGD puppies, would you allow a potential buyer to take a puppy to their vet for a health check to rule out something like a heart murmur and take it back if it were to have a serious condition?  I'm just thinking if Chewy's prognosis isn't good and we have to find Gracie another partner so we don't have this happen again.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 16, 2019)

I will answer this later today- It will take longer than a few minutes and I don't have much time right now.


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## Latestarter (Jan 16, 2019)

IMHO an honest and above board breeder would have in the contract a requirement that you have the puppy checked over by your vet within a reasonable amount of time, and if something is found to be bad, they will purchase the puppy back. Obviously they would not be required to purchase back if the issue was you, the buyers fault for whatever reason. A heart condition is nothing that you could be held responsible for over the very short time frame you've had the pup. I'm not a breeder, SBC is, and she has said she will answer later, as she's able. I hope it's nothing serious and that the pup can "outgrow" the issue.


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## SonRise Acres (Jan 16, 2019)

The breeders we have bought from actually had a clause in our contract. We were not required to take the dogs to a vet, but if we did within the specified time frame, and an issue was found, a full refund or another dog (if available) was given. I wouldn’t buy from a breeder that didn’t have that clause. They could be selling me a very sick animal.


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## bethh (Jan 16, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> I will answer this later today- It will take longer than a few minutes and I don't have much time right now.


Thank you.  I look forward to hearing back from you.


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## Wehner Homestead (Jan 16, 2019)

Wow! I can’t imagine getting that news. I want to respond but I’ll let SBC answer first as she’s more knowledgeable than I.


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## bethh (Jan 16, 2019)

Wehner Homestead said:


> Wow! I can’t imagine getting that news. I want to respond but I’ll let SBC answer first as she’s more knowledgeable than I.


Thanks


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## Southern by choice (Jan 16, 2019)

bethh said:


> The vet said lets not worry about it and I'll re-evaluate it at his next visit in 3 weeks.


That was a good call because puppies can often have murmurs and they outgrow them. It is generally with larger breeds that grow quickly but is not limited to large dogs. Most pups will outgrow this by 5 months. 


bethh said:


> She said that he needs to see a cardiologist. I'm trying to be positive but I usually see the glass as half full


How old is the pup?  Depending on age I would not rush to see a cardiologist just yet. Again- depends on age.


bethh said:


> We've had many puppies over the years and when they are his age (almost 3months). They are wild and crazy, running around like maniacs. Thats not him. He will play some but not the crazy puppy. Are most Pyr puppies more laid back? I'm trying to see if his behavior is the norm or is it because he has a heart condition.


LGD breeds typically are not wild in behavior. They generally have there times of play and rambunctiousness but are generally "laying around". 
A dog that is wild, crazy, bouncing off the walls would be looked at as not a good LGD candidate IMO.


bethh said:


> One more question, if any of you breed and sell LGD puppies, would you allow a potential buyer to take a puppy to their vet for a health check to rule out something like a heart murmur and take it back if it were to have a serious condition?


I do put in my contracts that we require a vet check- we do give a time frame for that. It is generally a short time frame. There is reason for that. Pups travelling long distances although may have been vet checked and cleared can still have a bloom. This way they choose THEIR vet. Working in the vet field you would be shocked at how many people believe that somehow breeders and vets are in cahoots together and will lie and all kids of crazy crap. That the vet is going to lie about the health and so most people DON'T trust the vet the breeder used. 

The breeder should have the entire litter health checked before sale. Appropriate vaccinations should be given as well as dewormings by the breeder before the sale of the animal.


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## bethh (Jan 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> How old is the pup? Depending on age I would not rush to see a cardiologist just yet. Again- depends on age.


Chewy is 2months 3 weeks.  She said normally she'd advise waiting awhile but didn't like the way it had changed.  She also had the other 2 vets listen to it.  If dog specialist are like people specialist, it will take awhile to get an appointment.  

Southern, maybe next time we will have to take a trip to NC.  

I'm trying to be optimistic.   

Thanks for getting back to me.  


Southern by choice said:


> LGD breeds typically are not wild in behavior. They generally have there times of play and rambunctiousness but are generally "laying around".
> A dog that is wild, crazy, bouncing off the walls would be looked at as not a good LGD candidate IMO.



Thats what I thought, but I was doubting my knowledge.


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## Baymule (Jan 17, 2019)

I hope this is something that your pup can outgrow.


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## bethh (Mar 17, 2019)

Hey All,

I haven't had an opportunity to update everyone.  Chewy seemed to be getting worse.  He saw a cardiologist and was diagnosed with a congenital heart defect.  His breathing had gotten worse and we found out he had congestive heart failure.  She doesn't give him a very good prognosis.  Thats all the bad news.  But there is good news.  He's now on heart medications and is like a new pup.  He's energetic and playful.  However long he has he will have a great life.  

I contacted the breeder and let her know what we found out and that the cardiologist recommends that these dogs not be bred again.  Hopefully they won't breed them again.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 17, 2019)

So sorry to hear this. I am glad you are committed to caring for him. It is good the breeder know,perhaps some genetic testing will be in their future.


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## Baymule (Mar 17, 2019)

I am so sorry that Chewy has this diagnosis. I admire you for continuing to take care of him and let him live out his life surrounded by your love for him.


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## bethh (Mar 17, 2019)

Southern by choice said:


> So sorry to hear this. I am glad you are committed to caring for him. It is good the breeder know,perhaps some genetic testing will be in their future.


Thanks.  We will do everything that we can for him.


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## bethh (Mar 17, 2019)

Baymule said:


> I am so sorry that Chewy has this diagnosis. I admire you for continuing to take care of him and let him live out his life surrounded by your love for him.



We are too.  I knew it wasn't going to be good before we he was seen.  He'd started coughing.  He'd get winded coming up the stairs.  I knew it was severe.  I'm glad that his meds are making him more comfortable.


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## bethh (Mar 17, 2019)

I'll try and take a better picture of him tomorrow.


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## Wehner Homestead (Mar 18, 2019)

He’s gorgeous! I’m glad that you are giving him a chance for the time that he has. Give him a bear hug from me!


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## Ridgetop (Apr 9, 2019)

I wish I had seen this posting earlier.  I am so sorry that you had to go through this.  I am glad that you contacted the breeder to let them know about the puppy's heart condition.  Here are my 2 cents worth and it may not be very popular.  I am sorry in advance if it offends anyone but this is my opinion without any emotional attachment.  Maybe it will help someone else who has this problem in future.

Did you have a contract on the puppy?  Did it have a clause about getting him checked out?  You did not say whether or not you had a sales contract.  Good breeders stand  behind their puppies and always have contracts.  If you did, and if there was a health clause in the contract, since you had him checked promptly and the heart defect was discovered almost immediately, the breeder should refund the price or offer you another puppy from a future litter (not a repeat breeding of this one).  Usually the breeder will take the puppy back before replacing him or want to see proof that he has been euthanized.  In this case, you are keeping the puppy and have him on meds.  These meds will run into a lot of money over his lifetime.  His lifespan may be shorter than normal.  His heart condition may precipitate other physical problems as he ages.  He may not be able to act as an aggressive LGD against predators or may have a heart attack while on guardian duty.  These are all things to take into consideration BEFORE deciding to keep him.  However  I see that you have had him since January so that advice is too late.  However, hopefully you did receive your money back from the breeder, or at least a promise of money back with proof of neutering.

When you buy a working dog, livestock guardian, herding, hunting, etc. you are buying a certain amount of years of expected use.  The dog is not just a pet, but a working member of your operation.  Good LGDs are not cheap to buy, cost a great deal to feed,  and provide vet care, etc. for.  In addition, we come to love them and their eventual loss is painful.  In this instance, assuming the contract provided for it, I would have returned the puppy and found another puppy immediately before becoming too emotionally invested.  Since you decided to keep the puppy anyway, I hope the breeder _*offered to return at least half your money*_ since she could not guarantee that the dog could even perform as a working LGD with a severe heart condition. 

I can't fault you for deciding to keep the puppy and spend the money on medication.  Often we make decisions with our hearts instead of our commonsense.  You know that you are letting yourself in for possible heartache down the road.  We have spent a lot of money on various surgeries for our animals over the years, including expensive medications even though we knew the outcome was poor.  We did it because they were members of the family, and because they had earned that care with their service and devotion.  You have a good heart, and hopefully the medication will give Chewy a happy life for as long as he has.


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## bethh (Apr 10, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> I wish I had seen this posting earlier.  I am so sorry that you had to go through this.  I am glad that you contacted the breeder to let them know about the puppy's heart condition.  Here are my 2 cents worth and it may not be very popular.  I am sorry in advance if it offends anyone but this is my opinion without any emotional attachment.  Maybe it will help someone else who has this problem in future.
> 
> Did you have a contract on the puppy?  Did it have a clause about getting him checked out?  You did not say whether or not you had a sales contract.  Good breeders stand  behind their puppies and always have contracts.  If you did, and if there was a health clause in the contract, since you had him checked promptly and the heart defect was discovered almost immediately, the breeder should refund the price or offer you another puppy from a future litter (not a repeat breeding of this one).  Usually the breeder will take the puppy back before replacing him or want to see proof that he has been euthanized.  In this case, you are keeping the puppy and have him on meds.  These meds will run into a lot of money over his lifetime.  His lifespan may be shorter than normal.  His heart condition may precipitate other physical problems as he ages.  He may not be able to act as an aggressive LGD against predators or may have a heart attack while on guardian duty.  These are all things to take into consideration BEFORE deciding to keep him.  However  I see that you have had him since January so that advice is too late.  However, hopefully you did receive your money back from the breeder, or at least a promise of money back with proof of neutering.
> 
> ...



Thanks @Ridgetop,

I didn't ask for a contract.  Lesson learned.  I didn't ask for nor did they offer any sort of compensation for his health issue.   My husband and I decided in the beginning before we knew the extent if his condition that we would take care of him to the best of our ability.   We could have probably asked to return him for a refund but didn't feel he would get the care that he deserved.  These people seemed very nice but don't think they would have gotten him the medical attention.  This is an assumption.  It does put us in a difficult position because I don't know if he will be able to partner with Gracie the way we would like him to.

We will see how things progress at this point.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 10, 2019)

This whole experience has been very unfortunate and sad for you, but all is not lost.  Chewy seems to be doing ok on his medications and has become an active, happy puppy.  I suggest you keep him on his meds and let him partner with Gracie.  She will train him and in the beginning will also guard him while he is a puppy.  Depending on the amount of physical activity he has to do (property flat or hilly, does it have straight sight lines, number of animals to be protected, do you bring the flock in the barn or up near the house at night, etc.) he may do just fine.  He is a livestock guardian dog and _*wants *_to work.  It is ok to let him work at this job.  The probability may be that he will have a shorter lifespan, but he will be happy doing his job of guarding livestock.  If it gets too much for him, you will notice and can have the vet change his meds or whatever needs t be done.  In the meantime, you can enjoy Chewy, Gracie has a helper, and he will have a good life.  You will get a contract next time.  It will work out, and you know you have done all you can for him.

Good luck to you and Chewy.


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## bethh (Apr 16, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> This whole experience has been very unfortunate and sad for you, but all is not lost.  Chewy seems to be doing ok on his medications and has become an active, happy puppy.  I suggest you keep him on his meds and let him partner with Gracie.  She will train him and in the beginning will also guard him while he is a puppy.  Depending on the amount of physical activity he has to do (property flat or hilly, does it have straight sight lines, number of animals to be protected, do you bring the flock in the barn or up near the house at night, etc.) he may do just fine.  He is a livestock guardian dog and _*wants *_to work.  It is ok to let him work at this job.  The probability may be that he will have a shorter lifespan, but he will be happy doing his job of guarding livestock.  If it gets too much for him, you will notice and can have the vet change his meds or whatever needs t be done.  In the meantime, you can enjoy Chewy, Gracie has a helper, and he will have a good life.  You will get a contract next time.  It will work out, and you know you have done all you can for him.
> 
> Good luck to you and Chewy.


Thanks Ridgetop.


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## Ridgetop (Apr 17, 2019)

Let us know how he progresses.


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