# New babies! Third time's a charm, right?



## mama24 (Jul 12, 2012)

This is Snowball's final chance at being a good mommy rabbit. Third litter. First litter she peed all over and they froze to death. 2nd litter, she bit off all of their ears, then peed on them. BUT, we were having terrible fox problems at the time and a rabbit breeding friend thought that was the problem Haven't seen the foxes in weeks. Saw her carrying hay and building a nest yesterday, dh saw her pulling fur last night. She had 8. Daddy is an English Spot/NZ (no idea on color) mix, mama is a NZ white. They are fat and have obviously been fed.  No missing ears, clean and healthy!


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## Hens and Roos (Jul 12, 2012)

mama24 said:
			
		

> This is Snowball's final chance at being a good mommy rabbit. Third litter. First litter she peed all over and they froze to death. 2nd litter, she bit off all of their ears, then peed on them. BUT, we were having terrible fox problems at the time and a rabbit breeding friend thought that was the problem Haven't seen the foxes in weeks. Saw her carrying hay and building a nest yesterday, dh saw her pulling fur last night. She had 8. Daddy is an English Spot/NZ (no idea on color) mix, mama is a NZ white. They are fat and have obviously been fed.  No missing ears, clean and healthy!
> 
> https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/529376_4332436508711_1778810022_n.jpg


How cute!  Congrats on the litter and hope  she contiunes to be a good mother!


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## Sunnyful (Jul 12, 2012)

So adorable! Hope it continues to work out. Congratulations!


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## flemish lops (Jul 14, 2012)

Congrats!


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## Missy (Jul 15, 2012)

Hurray! Congrats!!


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## mama24 (Jul 15, 2012)

I think the person I bought daddy from had no clue and he is just a mixed breed rabbit, bc these babies are just all sorts of colors! I need to learn a little more about color genetics, but I'm almost afraid after attempting the same with chickens. LOL. 4 are white with spots like daddy, not sure what color yet, but daddy's are dark brown, red, and red agouti (I think that's what that color is called, wild type, but redder?) 3 look either black or dark gray, and 1 is orange with gray ears and nose! I'm really excited about that last one! ! I've always loved that color!


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## TherapyBunnies (Jul 15, 2012)

Great looking litter. Congrats. Can you post pics of the parents? You definitely have brokens & solids.


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## mama24 (Jul 15, 2012)

Mom is definitely a purebred NZ white, with red eyes, so she lacks any color genes-- all of the color has to come from him. Here's an older pic of daddy. It looks like all of his spots are the same color in this pic, but they aren't. The one on his nose is red, around his eyes is sort of a chocolately brown, and the ones along his back are the ones I was calling red agouti. I don't really care if he is even more mixed up that I was led to believe, I just hate it when people tell me one thing and I find out it isn't true. I doubt English Spot + any color NZ would give you this much color variation! But I don't know ANYTHING about rabbit color genetics, so I could definitely be wrong about that!






Isn't he the cutest little thing? We let him out to hop around the yard. He's pretty tame and lets us catch him to hold him. We let him out for days or weeks at a time, but he comes back to the barn every day to visit and eat chicken feed. LOL. I had him in a cage planning for it to be permanent starting a couple months ago, though, b/c we were having fox troubles. I ran out of cage room 2 weeks ago b/c my other NZ doe had babies that needed to be weaned, so I moved him to a cage on the ground in the fenced off area in the barn where I store feed, planning on hanging it on the wall asap. One of my kids left the gate open, the goats got in, baby goats destroyed the cage, and he has been out running free the past week. Grr! Haven't seen the fox in a while. I'm just glad he didn't get hurt when the baby goats were jumping on the cage! It was flattened enough to open the door, but not enough to actually hurt him, thankfully.


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## Bunnylady (Jul 16, 2012)

mama24 said:
			
		

> Mom is definitely a purebred NZ white, with red eyes, so she lacks any color genes-- all of the color has to come from him.


I'm sorry, but this isn't the way it works at all. There are at least 8 different places in a rabbit's genetic code where genes that have major roles in determining coat color occur, REW occurs only on one of them. Your doe has color genes in all 7 of the other locations as well, you just can't see what they code for because the REW genes shut down pigment production. I call REW "the light switch" because it's like turning off the light - the rest is still there, you just can't see it.

Your buck is a broken Chestnut, sometimes called a Chestnut Agouti. The color variation you remark on is normal in Chestnuts; their coats are redder on the back than they are on the sides. Do you know for a fact that he has English Spot in him? What he has is the basic broken pattern that is common in at least a dozen rabbit breeds. I only ask because some people assume that any largish Broken patterned rabbit has English Spot in it, while even purebred New Zealands come in Broken, now. 

Congrats on the litter, here's hoping that Snowball gets it right this time!


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## mama24 (Jul 16, 2012)

Really? I just assumed REW was like being albino in other mammal breeds, recessive and a lack of color genes...

no, I don't know for sure if he has any English Spot at all. The pattern on his other side does look more like an ES than the pictured side, but I agree with you, he might just be a broken colored mixed breed. He's much smaller and lighter than my NZ and CA rabbits. I have no idea what he is, but he's cute and friendly and makes a good pet. My kids love him, and so do I. Even if he does run over to pee on my shoes every time I go outside if he isn't in a cage. LOL


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## Bunnylady (Jul 16, 2012)

mama24 said:
			
		

> Really? I just assumed REW was like being albino in other mammal breeds, recessive and a lack of color genes...


No, albinos don't_ lack_ color genes, they simply have genes at one location that say "no coat color pigment produced." They have to have something at every single location within their genetic code. You can't have nothing at a location, that is a major genetic no-no and usually isn't survivable. Most of the diseases caused by bad genetics are because of a faulty gene or an extra gene, not because of the lack of one.

Every rabbit has the potential to produce 2 pigments, phaeomelanin (the yellow/red pigment) and eumelanin (the black/brown pigment). He has a bunch of different genes that dictate just how much of each pigment he produces, and exactly where in his coat the pigment appears. It is the combined efforts of all of these genes that determines what color he is.

The A series decides the pattern, whether Agouti, Tan, or Self. The A series affects where in the hair coat the colors appear.

The B series determines the shape of the Eumelanin granule within the hair, making it appear either Black or brown (chocolate).

The C series influences the amount of pigment produced. There are several genes in the C series:

           C - the most dominant, codes for the maximum amount of both pigments that the genes at the other locations allow
           cchd - the chinchilla gene. Takes almost all of the yellow out, and a little of the black
           cchm- (some people don't believe this one exists, but it's called the medium chinchilla gene)
           cchl - the light chinchilla gene, also called the shaded gene. Removes all red/yellow, and a bit more of the black than the other two chinchilla genes. The reduced amount of black pigment looks brown, but this should not be confused with the effect of the chocolate (b) gene. This gene turns what would otherwise be a black self into a Siamese Sable.
           ch - the Himilayan gene. This is very close to an albino, having red eyes, but areas of the body that tend to be cooler (ears, nose, tail, paws) will produce dark pigment. Himis will show dark pigment in the coat on other parts of their bodies, if the skin there got cooled when the hair was actively growing.
            c - the Ruby-eyed White gene. This is the true albino, producing neither phaeomelanin nor eumelanin.

The D series determines how much of both pigments are produced, and causes the pigment granules within the hairs to clump together, allowing more light to pass through. This creates either a full colored(D) or a diluted effect (d), turning what would otherwise be a black rabbit into a blue, for example.

The E series affects where in the hair shaft the  black pigment appears. The normal extension gene(E) allows it to appear anywhere the genes at other locations allow it to be; the non-extention gene(e) pushes it almost entirely out of the hair shaft, except in areas where shorter hair allow what little black pigment is left to appear more concentrated. This gene turns what would otherwise have been a black self into a Tort. Harlequin (ej) and steel (Es) occur in this series.

The Broken series. The broken gene (En) is dominant, and codes for the broken pattern. It requires the assistance of a lot of helper genes, called modifiers; they determine just what the broken pattern looks like on a particular rabbit. A rabbit can have as little as white on the feet, chest, and maybe a spot on the forehead ("booted") to almost entirely white with just a little color around the eyes (Hotot), depending on the modifiers present.

There are other series, too, but the above are the principal ones and the ones you are likeliest to be working with. Every rabbit has 2 genes from the A series, 2 from the B, and so forth. They may be two of the same kind, or maybe two different ones, depending on what it got from its parents. With a REW, you know that the rabbit has 2 copies of c in the C series, but it also has 2 somethings in the A series, 2 from the B series, etc, you just can't see what the others are because those 2 c's shut down the pigment production.


Here's an example: I had a REW Holland Lop doe that I bred to a Smoke Pearl buck. For the first couple of litters, I got Smoke Pearl and REW babies, which told me that he had a REW gene too (I kinda knew that already, actually)   In their 3rd litter, I had a Broken Smoke Pearl baby. Now, Broken is a dominant gene, if it's there you're gonna see it, and that buck was solid. If he had the broken gene (En) I'd have seen it, as he was solid, he must have 2 "solid" genes (en) in that series. So where did the broken come from? Well, the REW's sire was a broken, so it wasn't too hard to figure out. The REW doe had a broken (En) gene, you just couldn't see it because the REW genes had shut down the pigment production. REW's can be real wild cards in a color breeding program, because just looking at them, you have no idea what the other color genes they are carrying may be.


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## mama24 (Jul 16, 2012)

Pics from this morning.  They look fat and well fed and are all growing well.  I'm glad I gave the evil bunny another chance! I'm trying not to handle them as much as I usually do since she hasn't been a great mom so far. But it's really hot outside so they were out of the fur. Looks like 2 of the ones I thought were dark gray or black are solid chestnut agouti, the other looks black with silver tips, but we'll see what that turns into in a few weeks. What would that color be called if it stayed like that? I'm waiting to see if it turns into chinchilla or silver. I definitely have a tort, looks like a blue tort tom me, maybe lilac??? And it also looks like I have 2 broken blacks and 2 broken chestnuts, but that could change as they grow.  I was hoping for a broken red. We had Chocolate Chip's sister, but the fox got her. She was broken light red and was named Peaches by my kids, absolutely gorgeous. But I'm even happier with the surprise tort, so not too disappointed! 

Can't wait to see what her sister Snow White has in her litter. She was due only 3 days after Snowball (who had hers on day 30), and still hasn't even built a nest. So I'm not sure what's going on with her. Either she isn't pregnant at all, or she's on day 31 of her pregnancy. She certainly looks pregnant. I do think her first litter was born on day 35, so I suppose that could just be normal for her. I thought I had miscalculated on my calender the first time, but since it's happening again, I guess she just has longer pregnancies.


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