# Please share your thoughts on sheep giving birth in the forest or field



## soarwitheagles (Nov 22, 2016)

Hi again everyone!

Well, we are in a wee bit of a dilemma.  Our planted paddocks are not yet fully ready for our sheep [they ate one annual paddock down to 3 inches in two days!  The other annual paddocks are only 4 inches high with grass and clovers].  Our perennial paddocks will not be ready for several months.

Our hay/dry clover bills were getting way too high.  So we decided to let the sheep eat in the back forest [first time we have ever tried this].  They have been doing just fine [3-4 weeks of forest grass, etc.], and they would automatically come back to their pen every afternoon just before dark.  Lately they like to stay out in the forest into the dark hours of the night [with past coyote and fox challenges, staying out past dark in the forest is probably not a good idea].  So I do my best to call them in and lock em' up every night [Makes me feel somewhat like a prison guard, doing head counts and all].

Now the ewes are beginning to give birth left and right out in the forest.  I am a little concerned about this.

I would rather they give birth in the pen or better yet, our lambing stalls.  But the ewes cry like crazy if we separate them from the flock.  And some won't even let us separate them.

Please share your thoughts on sheep giving birth in the forest or field. 

We had twins on Sunday, and came home tonight to discover another ewe missing.  When I searched the back forest area with powerful flashlights, I found the other ewe with her newly born twins still on the ground.  At this very moment, I am waiting for my wife to come home so we can go out and bring in the mama with her twins.

On Sunday, I was totally stressed out.  I literally guarded the lambs on the ground with a shotgun until they got up off the ground and followed mama toward the pens.  Finally, my wife and I simply picked up the two new born twins and brought them all the way back to the safe area.  One minor concern I have is the ewe gave birth out in the forest, during a rain storm.  Then, she won't let us take her into a covered area, so she and her twin lambs have been out in the rain all Sunday, all Sunday night, all Monday and Monday night, all Tuesday now she will be there all Tuesday night.  Her twin lambs look like ugly super wet rug rats.  I suppose this will either toughen them up or kill them.

My biggest concern is coyotes or foxes.  The lambs seem so utterly helpless.  Two neighbors [3-5 miles from us] have each lost lambs to coyotes...one lost 17 lambs last year, the other lost over 20.

What else can I do?

Please give me some ideas if you can.

Posting a pic of lambs from Sunday.

Also posting a pic of the lambs born tonight.

Thank you!


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 22, 2016)

You don't have any LGD's?   Do you have enough room to lock up all the pregnant ewes?


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## babsbag (Nov 22, 2016)

Somehow you need to get those ewes back to the paddock or in the stalls. Go buy some hay and keep them home until lambing is over.  Coyotes can smell the blood and afterbirth and they will be there. 

I seem to recall that you were against an LGD but you might want to reconsider that for next year.


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 22, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> You don't have any LGD's?   Do you have enough room to lock up all the pregnant ewes?



We do not have LGD's.  I still do not know enough about them to purchase the right ones and intergrate them with the flock.  Also, I am still concerned about a LGD getting loose and hurting neighbors or neighbors animals.  My neighbor's son was terribly mauled by a LGD and they settled for $300,000.

Yes, we have lots and lots of room to lock up the pregnant ewes.  I think we will begin to separate them tomorrow.



babsbag said:


> Somehow you need to get those ewes back to the paddock or in the stalls. Go buy some hay and keep them home until lambing is over.  Coyotes can smell the blood and afterbirth and they will be there.
> 
> I seem to recall that you were against an LGD but you might want to reconsider that for next year.



Babs, we are definitely not against LGD's.  I so much wish I could have one or two that knew how to do their job and were safe to keep here.  My wife just called and let me know she will be here in about 10 minutes.  So we will follow your good advice and simply carry the lambs in.  I hope mama will follow them.

My neighbor just gave me some good advice: he said leave all the rams and larger sheep that are not pregnant out in the  forest and then bring all pregnant ewes into the paddock and let them eat the grass there.

Ohhhhhhhh!  My wife just arrived.  We are off to rescue our lambs!  BRB!


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 22, 2016)

UPDATE: This second ewe was so much more easier to handle.  My wife picked up the lambs and as she walked to the lambing pen area, the mama followed from the forested area.  We were able to place mama and her new born twins in a lambing pen with a covered top.  So this is really good news.

Still hoping that the Sunday ewe will let us place her in a covered lambing pen too....they still look like rained upon wet little rug rats!


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## norseofcourse (Nov 22, 2016)

Congrats on the lambs!  I would be way too nervous to let them lamb out there with the danger of coyote or fox, too.  I'd take the advice your neighbor gave you, or find some way to make sure they come back to the pen every evening.  Food usually works great, if you have a way to give them a bit of grain or something.

Just as a note, if you find a ewe giving birth out back, don't move her and the lambs until she's given birth to all the lambs she's going to.  I did that once - moved a lamb/mom and then she had another lamb.  I think moving her was at least part of the reason she rejected the second lamb (she finally accepted it after a week of me making her stand to let it nurse).


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 22, 2016)

norseofcourse said:


> Congrats on the lambs!  I would be way too nervous to let them lamb out there with the danger of coyote or fox, too.  I'd take the advice your neighbor gave you, or find some way to make sure they come back to the pen every evening.  Food usually works great, if you have a way to give them a bit of grain or something.
> 
> Just as a note, if you find a ewe giving birth out back, don't move her and the lambs until she's given birth to all the lambs she's going to.  I did that once - moved a lamb/mom and then she had another lamb.  I think moving her was at least part of the reason she rejected the second lamb (she finally accepted it after a week of me making her stand to let it nurse).



Norse,

Thank you for the warning, information, and heads up!  I never even thought about being cautious by waiting until all the lambs drop!  Great info!  We fed our sheep much better this year so I believe most will give twins and triplets.  So this tells me I must wait until all sheep hit the ground before I dare mess with mama.  Ok, how do I know when all sheep have hit the ground?  Please help me out on this.  What is the longest time in-between births for multiple births?

American Blackbellies give birth year round having 3 birthing times every two years.  So that is a new sets of lambs every 8 months.  I kinda like that!  Now we just need to set this up in a manner that is safe and healthy for the sheep.

Learning new ideas every day!

I would like to learn  how to "lasso" a sheep.  I have seen my rancher friend's ranch hand do it over and over again.  I would like to be able to "lasso" those hard to catch ewes and simply put them in the lambing stalls!

Thanks again for the help!


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## babsbag (Nov 23, 2016)

The only way I can tell that there are done is to wait for the afterbirth but that can be hours and hours.  I have had goats go for hours between kids but the usual time is probably about 15-30 minutes. I have moved goats in the middle of kidding; have had them drop them on the ground as we walked to the barn...UGH!!! But they never rejected them for that reason. I think that moving them in between lambs is far better than being out at night, especially in the rain. 

About the dogs. Two of my LGDs love people. My third one is a little shy but she is still a puppy so I can't say definitively that she likes or dislikes people. For an LGD breed dog to maul a person while off of its property is very very unusual. My adult dogs have both ended up at the neighbors on occasion and they didn't hurt the people or their animals. Mine even like to go to the vet's office. Weird dogs.    But seriously, if you get the right dog you will forever wonder how you raised sheep without them. They are amazing animals. 

Do you have a hot wire around your property?


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## norseofcourse (Nov 23, 2016)

What @babsbag said about the afterbirth is the only way I know they're done, too.  I've heard some people can 'bump' a sheep/goat to tell if there's any more babies in there, but I've never done it.

About moving them - maybe I phrased it too strongly.  Yes, I had it happen once, and the Storey guide to raising sheep says moving them between lambs can be one of several reason for rejecting a lamb, but as I've said in other threads, sheep don't read the books (it was nearly midnight when I posted, that's my excuse lol).  Maybe it's just something to keep in the back of your mind, to watch for.  I'm with babs on not waiting in the rain!


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 23, 2016)

babsbag said:


> The only way I can tell that there are done is to wait for the afterbirth but that can be hours and hours.  I have had goats go for hours between kids but the usual time is probably about 15-30 minutes. I have moved goats in the middle of kidding; have had them drop them on the ground as we walked to the barn...UGH!!! But they never rejected them for that reason. I think that moving them in between lambs is far better than being out at night, especially in the rain.
> 
> About the dogs. Two of my LGDs love people. My third one is a little shy but she is still a puppy so I can't say definitively that she likes or dislikes people. For an LGD breed dog to maul a person while off of its property is very very unusual. My adult dogs have both ended up at the neighbors on occasion and they didn't hurt the people or their animals. Mine even like to go to the vet's office. Weird dogs.    But seriously, if you get the right dog you will forever wonder how you raised sheep without them. They are amazing animals.
> 
> Do you have a hot wire around your property?



Thank you for your encouraging words about LGD's.  I will begin to read more about this adventure and hopefully, in the future, I will be able to find the right LGD for our needs here.

Regarding moving the ewes that are giving birth...I hope to separate all the pregnant ewes this morning and move them to the paddock with annual grasses and clovers.  I think they will be fine there.  I noticed that the lambs require 1-3 hours before they are up and walking/moving.  If this ever occurs again, I suppose we will simply let the ewe walk their lambs back to the pen.  That requires that I spend considerable amounts of time after the birthing process and I would like to avoid this.  So moving the pregnant ewes is now a great priority.



norseofcourse said:


> What @babsbag said about the afterbirth is the only way I know they're done, too.  I've heard some people can 'bump' a sheep/goat to tell if there's any more babies in there, but I've never done it.
> 
> About moving them - maybe I phrased it too strongly.  Yes, I had it happen once, and the Storey guide to raising sheep says moving them between lambs can be one of several reason for rejecting a lamb, but as I've said in other threads, sheep don't read the books (it was nearly midnight when I posted, that's my excuse lol).  Maybe it's just something to keep in the back of your mind, to watch for.  I'm with babs on not waiting in the rain!



I hear you on the rain.  The challenge is we have 3-4 ewes that are incredibly distrustful toward humans.  They will not permit us to go near them and the one that gave birth Sunday refused to go into the covered lambing pen even after we moved her two lambs there!  Presently we have her in a transitional pen that has lots of grass, forbs and clovers, so I suppose we will leave her there for now.  I made two lean to's for her, but she still refuses to come in out of the rain.  She just lets her lambs remain in the rain, laying on the ground, without a worry at all.

These American Blackbelly sheep are suppose to be the lowest maintenance sheep on the planet.  They remind me of deer and antelope.  Perhaps leaving them out in the rain is not as bad as I think it is.  Most of the flock will come in out of the rain during a storm.  But some just hang out and get wet.

I suppose I am thankful we are not down in the 30F degree weather right now.  That could probably really be a problem...


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## misfitmorgan (Nov 23, 2016)

I would definitely get all pregnant ewes to a safe lambing area. If the lambs stay wet and the temps do drop they will very likely die of hypothermia. When fur gets wet it loses a large amount of it's insulation value and if it stays wet it can cause problems on the skin. 

Maybe try to lure the Sunday sheep in with grain? Or see if you and your wife can herd her into a barn or building perhaps?


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## babsbag (Nov 23, 2016)

I have a friend in Kentucky that raises about  150 head of sheep, they lamp in the fields. As long as the temps stay good the lambs seem to do well, even in the rain.  A few years ago lambing was during a nasty cold stretch and some lambs were actually frozen to the ground, It was a very tragic year for them but they don't have a barn for that many sheep. 

They have about 6 LGDs 

If I ever see an adult LGD being re-homed due to people selling their stock I will let you know. Puppyhood can be a challenge at times, and then other times it can be perfect. 

In the meantime I would think about an electric fence.


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## misfitmorgan (Nov 23, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I have a friend in Kentucky that raises about  150 head of sheep, they lamp in the fields. As long as the temps stay good the lambs seem to do well, even in the rain.  A few years ago lambing was during a nasty cold stretch and some lambs were actually frozen to the ground, It was a very tragic year for them but they don't have a barn for that many sheep.
> 
> They have about 6 LGDs
> 
> ...



We had that with goat kids our first winter we had goats...it was a brutal winter that year a lot of -30s and -40s...alll of the kids had frost bit ears.


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## purplequeenvt (Nov 23, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Norse,
> 
> Thank you for the warning, information, and heads up!  I never even thought about being cautious by waiting until all the lambs drop!  Great info!  We fed our sheep much better this year so I believe most will give twins and triplets.  So this tells me I must wait until all sheep hit the ground before I dare mess with mama.  Ok, how do I know when all sheep have hit the ground?  Please help me out on this.  What is the longest time in-between births for multiple births?
> 
> ...



If you happen upon fresh lamb(s) and the ewe still has afterbirth hanging, take a look at it. If you see little white wormy looking strings mixed in with the pink and red tissue, she's done.


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 23, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> I would definitely get all pregnant ewes to a safe lambing area. If the lambs stay wet and the temps do drop they will very likely die of hypothermia. When fur gets wet it loses a large amount of it's insulation value and if it stays wet it can cause problems on the skin.
> 
> Maybe try to lure the Sunday sheep in with grain? Or see if you and your wife can herd her into a barn or building perhaps?



Wow!  BYH is the best place in the world to obtain good advice and help.  Thank you Morgan!  We were able to do just as you suggested.  All is well now.



babsbag said:


> I have a friend in Kentucky that raises about  150 head of sheep, they lamp in the fields. As long as the temps stay good the lambs seem to do well, even in the rain.  A few years ago lambing was during a nasty cold stretch and some lambs were actually frozen to the ground, It was a very tragic year for them but they don't have a barn for that many sheep.
> 
> They have about 6 LGDs
> 
> ...



Thank you babs!  Sure glad it rarely goes below freezing here!  What a blessed place to raise lambs!  I purchased the electric fence power box, some stand offs, etc.  To do the entire property may require several days.  We have not yet had the chance to put in electric fence anywhere.

Thanks for keeping a listening ear for us regarding a LGD.  Lots of em' on Craigslist right now but most are $400-$500 and our present budget will not permit it at this moment.  I suppose if 3-4 of our lambs got munched by predators, our budget parameters may experience a sudden change!



misfitmorgan said:


> We had that with goat kids our first winter we had goats...it was a brutal winter that year a lot of -30s and -40s...alll of the kids had frost bit ears.



Morgan, I have no clue nor can I even imagine what negative 30 or 40 would be like.  I thought those low of temps only occur on the moon!    You are right, that IS brutal!



purplequeenvt said:


> If you happen upon fresh lamb(s) and the ewe still has afterbirth hanging, take a look at it. If you see little white wormy looking strings mixed in with the pink and red tissue, she's done.



Thank you PQ.  Funny you should say that!  Yesterday was the first time I noticed the white strings...

Attaching pics I took this morning after moving the flock into one of our annual paddocks and giving the sheep pen that is usually used at night to the two ewes and new borns.  Now they can live it up....5 star Hilton!


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## Latestarter (Nov 23, 2016)

Glad you're getting all that sorted out! Cute babies!


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## Bossroo (Nov 23, 2016)

When you want to carry a new born lamb (s) , carry them by their front legs and very close to the ground ( back legs almost dragging on the ground ).  This way it appears more natural to the ewe and even a very reluctant  ewe will follow their lamb (s) just about anywhere. As for your idea to "lasso " a ewe,  not a good idea.  Buy yourself a shepherd's crook.  It is a wood pole about 8' long with a very heavy wire end shaped like a very narrow hook with the end bent outward  forming a "V" to catch a sheep by it's hind leg at the hock. It has been used by shepherds for centuries.  Next to your dog,  it will be one of the most important tools for sheep management.  I had 3 of them -  one for me and 2 spares if and when I needed more help it catching sheep for any reason.  Another hint if you have chickens, ducks, or turkeys and want to catch one by one of it's legs very easily.  You can make yourself one from a broomstick then replace the broom end with a heavy wire forming a close "V" .  Works like a charm !


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 25, 2016)

Thanks for the great advice Boss.  I will have to try one of those shepherd's crooks!  Have you any suggestions on where to purchase one?


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## secuono (Nov 25, 2016)

What breed was that LGD?

Some breeds are too aggressive in general and not the best for people new to them to own one. 


My male refused to leave the farm to get neutered, even growled at me. But once off the farm, away from what was his, he was super friendly towards total strangers. 

I have a pure GP & a 50/50 GP/Maremma, neither roam, neither jump or dig out of the basic 4ft field fencing. Both are friendly towards people I introduce them to on the property. The female barks at the shearer if one of them is still pregnant. Male helps ewes clean up their lambs. 


I wouldn't jump on the first litter you find when you decide to get one, research should be done on the breeder & the oup parents, too. 


My ewes lamb out in pasture, but only in early spring. I carry new lambs into the barn if we are expecting bad weather or if the mom is new to lambing & might need more time to bond to her own babies. I place the lambs in a corner of a jug, leave the door open a little and let mom follow their cries into the jug, then close it. Or just herd them all into the barn into a small corner and pluck out stubborn mom, lol.


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 26, 2016)

secuono said:


> What breed was that LGD?
> 
> Some breeds are too aggressive in general and not the best for people new to them to own one.
> 
> ...



secuono,

Thanks for the great advice.  Wow, we learn something new every day!  It appears as if your LGD's are perfect for your needs there, and that is a wonderful blessing to have!

I am not sure exactly what breed of LGD it was that attacked my neighbor, but I will ask and do my best to post the answer here.  The boy is a high schooler.  He worked for us for a few weeks about a year ago.  He did show me his "battle scars" and it looked fairly serious [I think it was 60+ stitches, all on the head].  If I heard him right, I think he said the LGD jumped out of a truck at our tiny local store and mauled the heck out of him.  So if I heard him correctly, it did not occur out in a field.

I know for certain he settled for $300,000.  When he worked for me, he didn't even have a dime.  Now he recently purchased brand new quads, a new truck for his dad, etc.  So he recently turned 18 years old and now I hope he uses the settlement money wisely.

Yesterday I watched my first dog show in my entire life.  It was on TV [National Dog Show], and they had a segment with the herding dogs and the guard dogs.  Those were some awesome looking dogs.

I would like to have some LGD's, especially when we get up to 50-100 sheep.  Right now, I have to play alot of rotational games with nearly 30 sheep.  This morning we let the large flock out into the forest.  We turned the mama's with their ewes out into a rye/clover/trefoil/chickory paddock.  Two days previous to this, we let the large flock out into that same paddock.  I think having some brave and well mannered LGD's would allow us to keep the entire flock out together with no worries at all.

I want to be careful with which dog we obtain.  I have been terribly bitten in the past [trained doberman], and it really hurt a lot.  It was also frightening because I did not know if/when he was gonna stop.

May I ask how long you allow your ewes and lambs to bond?  When we first launched into this sheep adventure we didn't even know we were suppose to allow a bonding period separate from the flock.  We starting trying it 6 months ago and noticed an incredible difference!  We were thinking 1-2 weeks is sufficient....may I ask what are your thoughts on this?


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## Bossroo (Nov 26, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Thanks for the great advice Boss.  I will have to try one of those shepherd's crooks!  Have you any suggestions on where to purchase one?


The closest " shepherd's leg crook " that I can find on the internet is from Premier 1.  It is all aluminum.  What I had was steel head shaped like a flattened fish hook ( similar to the leg hook head shown but longer hook) mounted on a sturdy rake handle.  Mine was about 7+  feet   long.  You would want a  longer handle to catch the more flighty sheep. Such is progress from the days when you could buy quality tools at any feed store that actually worked great before the new and improved ones came along.   NOT !!!


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## secuono (Nov 26, 2016)

2-3 days, some need to stay longer, about a week. They get too restless any longer than that.
I let them out after 2 days and watch. Sometimes they're good to go and other times I bring them right back in and try again in a day or two.


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## Bruce (Nov 26, 2016)

I found quite a few shepherd's crooks with a Google search. This one is hickory:
https://www.lehmans.com/product/hickory-livestock-canes/animal-care

Probably SUBSTANTIALLY overpriced given they have a post puller for $100 and it looks pretty much the same as the one I bought from TSC for $40.


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## Bossroo (Nov 26, 2016)

Bruce --  those crooks are for use on the neck to catch a sheep.  The ones that I used is used on the hind leg to catch the sheep.  It has a much narrower space between the shaft and crook and has been the tool of choice to catch a sheep or goat.


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2016)

A trained herding dog would be ideal. There are many a time that I wish I had one with my goats


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> If I heard him right, I think he said the LGD jumped out of a truck at our tiny local store and mauled the heck out of him. So if I heard him correctly, it did not occur out in a field.



That is even stranger. Most working LGDs never leave the farm, not something you would expect to see at a grocery store.   These are big powerful dogs and could certainly do some damage but mine are such sweethearts to everyone I certainly hope no one ever tries to steal a goat as they might just let a 2 legged predator in. At lease when I am around the are sweet; who knows when I am not home.

I think I would be safe in saying that the number one reason an adult LGD is rehomed is because they challenge fences. If you ever see an adult dog for sale or free make sure it isn't a fence jumper. An electric fence can help with that but better if they don't already have that habit.


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 27, 2016)

Babs,

Thanks for the great info, a fence jumper would be a total bummer as there are lots of SSS people here in our neck of the woods.  One neighbor even warned everyone of legal consequences if any of our neighborhood dogs messed with her livestock.  The large majority of our neighbors are super nice and helpful.  But there is a lady who, according to many others, rides a broomstick.  So I am very careful in my interactions with others here.

Yes, I will have to ask the boy that was mauled for more details.

I hope I am not allowing fear to control my thinking in relation to LGD's!  The scars and stitches are very real on his head and so is the large monetary gain he recently experienced!


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## Latestarter (Nov 27, 2016)

It's rather amazing how much damage one or two bad apples can do to the bunch. Justsayin...


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## promiseacres (Nov 27, 2016)

Premier1 has shepherds crooks


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## Mike CHS (Nov 27, 2016)

Now I'm curious about how many other people use the crooks?  We use a crowd pen and haven't had a need for one yet.  It might be something to have on hand but we so far we find the sheep almost want to be in our laps when one or both of the dogs are staring at them.


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 27, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> It's rather amazing how much damage one or two bad apples can do to the bunch. Justsayin...



Latestarter,

The last thing I want to do is give LGD's a bad rap.  I believe 99.9% of LGD's are really nice and do a great job.

Unfortunate for me, my first introduction to LGD's was a negative one that was from a person that had the bad experience with one.

I am hoping to renew my mind [paradigm shift] by reading about many positive experiences with LGD's and one day, actually owning a LGD.

Please forgive me if I have been too negative regarding LGD's.  Let's not permit one negative experience to sour all the good in the adventure of owning a good LGD!

Please post some good stories about LGD's or perhaps we can make new a thread titled,  "Positive experiences with LGD's!"

For every negative experience with LGD's I am certain their must be literally thousands of positive experiences with them!

Help us out here if you can!

I will begin by sharing two true stories of a dog that saved my life twice...

It was back in the 1970's, and I lived in a remote part of the Santa Cruz Mountains in a genuine rain forest of giant redwood trees.  I was hiking just above the forest when suddenly, out of the corner of my eye, I saw a snake swiftly coil and strike at me.  At that exact moment, my dog just happened to run quickly between me and that rattle snake.  The rattle snake attempted to attach itself to my dog's side, but the fur was way too thick.  So he did not get bitten and he most certainly saved me from the four fangs of the rattler.  Due to the remoteness of my location at the time, I think I would have been in serious trouble because I would have had to hike quite a ways before phoning for emergency personnel.

Second incident occurred in the 1970's one night just past midnight.  Some wacko had hiked through the woods and was hiding in the bushes near my cabin.  To this day I am not sure who it was.  But when I went to investigate with my dog, he flushed the intruder out, and then chased the intruder through the forest for quite some time.  Early the next morning,  I tracked the person's prints for quite some distance through the woods and realized my dog had flushed out someone who had hidden in the bushes observing me in the middle of the night...and this was when Santa Cruz was the murder capital of the world...

So I like a good dog.  I had many, many years of fun with that dog.  Some people thought my dog was part German Shepherd and part coyote.  To this day, I am not sure what he was, but I do know he was incredibly protective and incredibly loyal.


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2016)

@Southern by choice can share many many stories about her LGDs.  Mine protect me when I am outside. I have good fences and DH didn't want a dog that barks all night (my current ones do not bark all night) but I talked him into a pair of dogs. Now that I have them my life has changed as far as being comfortable on the property at night. If they aren't on alert then I know that I am safe.  I will never be without them again. My male has also saved a kid from drowning in a water trough, has cleaned many a kid when I haven't been here, and just generally takes care of the newborns. He stands guard over them until I relieve him of his duties. And they like people.   

They do bark when they need to, my electric fence can fail and I don't panic anymore. They follow the herd out to browse, and just make me smile. I have few and far neighbors right now and the few times they have gotten out the dogs come back in a few minutes, they don't go far. It is best to let your neighbors know that you have dogs and that they are livestock friendly just in case.  Many neighbors actually like the LGDs as they will keep the neighborhood clear or predators.


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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

Please understand my comment was in no way intended to be harsh toward you, your experience to date, or your "fears"/concerns. I was merely pointing out that in today's litigious society and the news providers need for blood & guts and sensationalism, you only hear one side of virtually any/every story... the gory, bloody, bad side that drives up viewer numbers and sales. You don't hear about the flip side, the good, because that's not as interesting. You can read many stories already posted on the LGD threads, both good and bad. Nothing as devastating as what happened to your neighbor, and I am sorry that he had to endure that. 

I have extremely limited LGD experience and started out with an LGD from a very knowledgeable/experienced/thorough/conscientious/BYH member/breeder. I have years of experience with dogs in general. LGD breeds are "different" than a normal "pet" dog. They are more intelligent, more independent, generally very intuitive, & much more protective of what they "own" and that which is "owned" by you; their owner/partner. My Mel is very friendly to virtually anyone that comes to my place. You can verify that with @Devonviolet or @Baymule And I have met both of their LGDs and the only damage was being drooled on, a couple of dew claw scratches on my inner forearms from supporting them while they tried to kiss my face, and dog hair on my clothes    The ones I've had the pleasure of meeting (introduced by the owners - not walking up to them on my own) have been pretty much awesome animals   Mine is a big loveable lug who needs his ear scratches and attention.

The exception is if I'm wary or "stand-off-ish" toward the person. And if a person ever shows up that Mel doesn't like, I can assure you that I'll trust his judgement. The whole purpose of the LGD is to be "scary" and "threatening" to scare off potential adversaries/predators. They shouldn't attack except as a last resort. And if a person brings that on themselves, they'd best be ready because if Mel is attacking them, it would be for a reason, & I will be too. When Mel goes off site with me for socialization, he's always been the perfect gentleman dog with everyone who has approached him. Never a single growl. I've met LGD's in the mountain meadows of the high rockies guarding sheep and they bark and threaten as you approach the herd. But if you stop and back off, as I did, they do as well. They just don't want you near their charges.

I have no idea of the history of the neighbor or dog involved with his injuries. It really doesn't matter. I do want to point out though that in today's society, if a thief enters your residence and trips and falls down a flight of stairs, he could sue you for injuries and in many states (notably the most liberal ones like the one YOU live in) he would likely win compensatory damages. The poor thief shouldn't have to worry about being injured while stealing from you.  It has been said that if you accidentally hit someone with your car, you should back over them to make sure they're dead as it's less costly than a court liability & damages battle that could cost you millions and destroy your financial future. In some states, the govt will "allow you" to protect yourself and possessions as long as the perp is inside your residence. But heaven forbid you shoot him while he's on your front porch. So if the first round doesn't drop him, it's said make sure he's dead then drag him back inside... I shouldn't think that I need ANYONE'S permission to protect myself, my family and my belongings. I consider it a God given right. A sad state of affairs indeed. OK... getting into rant mode... time to back off 

If you get the chance to visit a ranch with working LGDs or a good breeder's ranch where there are active working dogs, I will be completely astounded if you don't fall in love with them when you interact with them. They are a breed apart and special in so many ways. I can't see myself ever being without one again, and I don't even have my livestock yet. justsayin 

Sounds like your dog friend in your youth was indeed a lifesaver for you.


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## Bruce (Nov 28, 2016)

I don't have a lot of experience with LGDs but 2 years ago we visited a breeder of Anatolians in Oregon when there visiting my father. There were probably close to a dozen dogs out with the goats including a few pups probably 8-10 weeks old. I was expecting a bunch of wary dogs and figured they would keep their distance. We went out in the pasture with the breeder and only one dog kept her distance with that wary look I was expecting from all of them. The rest NEEDED to be scratched. Once they each had their turn they wandered off back to their jobs. The pups stuck around of course. Turns out the reason the one female was standoffish was because some kids had visited the prior week (nephews I think she said) and they had been chasing after the dog. 

And we met a GP at the fair, he was in a pen with some sheep. He is an outside dog whose job is to guard sheep when at home. He was tired having been petted by hundreds of strangers pretty much the whole day.

The people who gave us the 2 alpacas have a herding dog and a GP but NEITHER has been trained AT ALL as a working dog (sorta sad given they had 7 alpacas and 3 goats). Bark bark bark and lots of running around any time people on the road walk by the house. Same thing when we went to the house even when the people were home. We went to water and treat the 2 remaining alpacas (the ones we were getting) and the goats daily for 2 weeks in early September while the people were on vacation. The lady (Kelly, in her 40's) said the GP plays kind of rough with her husband and her because they wrestled with him when it was a pup (now maybe 15 months old??). But he is a LAMB near Kelly's mother who is a bit unsteady on her feet. Her 2 dogs are Toy Yorkies. Aslan (the GP) KNOWS how to behave with various members of the family and no one had to teach him to be VERY gentle around Kelly's mother.


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## soarwitheagles (Nov 30, 2016)

Bruce,

Wow!  Thank you for sharing your stories.  Now those sound like the kind of dogs I would like to have here!

I will continue to read up and check nearby LGD's in my attempt to feel more comfortable with them.  I really do desire to have one or two LGD's here at our ranch.

To be honest with you, I would rather have reliable and safe LGD's now, rather than wait until we have a problem and lose some sheep. 

We are still continuing our practice of letting the sheep browse and graze the forested area every day during daylight hours.  So far, no problems at all and I think we have had them out there for over 4 weeks.  Haven't lost any sheep, but I am still keeping the new lambs back near our house, outside the forested area.  I simply do not wanna take any unnecessary chances...

By permitting the flock to eat the free forage in the forest, we are saving approx. $10-$20 per day on feed costs...and the sheep are doing a good job of knocking down 10-12 acres of forested floor.  By Feb-March, I think we may be able to populate the back forest with up to 100 sheep...and that would be a huge money saver.


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## Bruce (Dec 1, 2016)

$10-$20/day starts to get significant pretty fast!

I went back through this thread focusing on the LGD attack on your neighbor. What I can't find is any indication that the dog was a working Livestock Guardian Dog or was a dog that is one of the breeds commonly used to guard livestock. Big difference.

Think of property guard dogs. Which come to mind? Perhaps a Doberman Pinscher with docked tail and pointy cropped ears that stand up? I worked for a vet when I was in college as a pre-vet major (before I figured out I didn't really want to spend my life dealing with flea allergies, spays and neuters, etc). I worked weekends, first task in the morning was to put the dogs out in the runs and clean the cages. Which puppies cowered in the back of their cage while all the others were up front looking for attention? The long tailed floppy eared Dobies. 

Point being dogs are trained to their tasks. There are plenty of cut/docked Dobies that are fearsome to look at (partly because we have been conditioned to think all Dobies are aggressive) but friendly as can be. And there are those that are trained to be aggressive guard dogs. OR they are untrained and uncontrolled. I'm wondering if your neighbor was attacked by a LGD breed dog that was one of the 2 latter types.


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## babsbag (Dec 1, 2016)

I had a house sitter at my place over Thanksgiving and I was a little concerned that my 11 month old puppy was not going to like her. The pup has always been a little timid of new things in her space, like a wheelbarrow or a piece of plywood. I don't have visitors often, the last one in the barn was in July so I just wasn't sure about her. Well, she loved the sitter. I introduced them and after that all was well; of course my 2 older dogs got her all muddy and had to have belly rubs. I would love to see what these dogs do with a stranger when I'm not around. Maybe my sense of safety and protection around them is over rated. 

My female, Sigueme, even lets people around her puppies. She stays right near, and gives the stink eye if they misbehave but no aggression at all. Once a man came to look at the pups and mama left, wouldn't stay in the barn with him. She went about 20' away and sat down and just watched. Fortunately he decided that an LGD wasn't for him which I was happy about. If she didn't like him he didn't deserve a puppy. He had 2 children with him so I wasn't afraid for my safety but it made me wonder about Sig's discernment. She has only done that once with multiple litters of pups.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 2, 2016)

Bruce said:


> $10-$20/day starts to get significant pretty fast!
> 
> I went back through this thread focusing on the LGD attack on your neighbor. What I can't find is any indication that the dog was a working Livestock Guardian Dog or was a dog that is one of the breeds commonly used to guard livestock. Big difference.
> 
> ...



Bruce,  you bring up very important points and sure helps a lot.

Yes, $10-$20 per day does begin to add up very fast!  We are so happy that the sheep can eat in the forest with no problems at this time.  

I suppose just about any dog can be a "good" dog if it is brought up/trained right.  I still have not been able to speak with our neighbor's son who was attacked by the dog in question.  I look forward to speaking to him and asking many more questions!  Perhaps greater clarity will help sort this out.

Thanks again for your help!



babsbag said:


> I had a house sitter at my place over Thanksgiving and I was a little concerned that my 11 month old puppy was not going to like her. The pup has always been a little timid of new things in her space, like a wheelbarrow or a piece of plywood. I don't have visitors often, the last one in the barn was in July so I just wasn't sure about her. Well, she loved the sitter. I introduced them and after that all was well; of course my 2 older dogs got her all muddy and had to have belly rubs. I would love to see what these dogs do with a stranger when I'm not around. Maybe my sense of safety and protection around them is over rated.
> 
> My female, Sigueme, even lets people around her puppies. She stays right near, and gives the stink eye if they misbehave but no aggression at all. Once a man came to look at the pups and mama left, wouldn't stay in the barn with him. She went about 20' away and sat down and just watched. Fortunately he decided that an LGD wasn't for him which I was happy about. If she didn't like him he didn't deserve a puppy. He had 2 children with him so I wasn't afraid for my safety but it made me wonder about Sig's discernment. She has only done that once with multiple litters of pups.



Babs,

Another great story and thank you for sharing!


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2016)

Greetings and salutations one and all. Per a request I received I have removed all the posts regarding tail docking/ear cropping as well as those dealing with spay/neuter and have moved them to threads so named. I have left the LGD discussions above as Soar had started that subject within his thread asking for LGD input/ideas. Hopefully this thread can now drift back closer along title lines. If there's more you'd like me to do Soar, just PM me and let me know.


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## babsbag (Dec 8, 2016)

Sorry about the thread hijacking.


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## misfitmorgan (Dec 8, 2016)

Sorry @soarwitheagles we didnt mean to hijack the thread topic, naughty us


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 8, 2016)

I would like to apologize because I also went off topic.  I just realized I have often gone off topic in various threads.  I didn't even recognize it at the time.  But now I hope to do better by reminding myself to do my best to remain on topic or open a new thread.

I think I have gone off topic more than anyone else here.  So again, I apologize and hope to improve in this area.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2016)

Your thread do what you want!  BTW I think this thread, after I went back and read what it was about  is a really good thread.


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2016)

It's really the natural way of things Soar... folks get to chatting and subjects change over time. Pretty much just like in real life. It would get pretty boring if you had to stay "on subject" for days and days... But it is your thread to proceed with as you wish  Did I get it cleaned up enough for you? If you need anything changed (more or back) just let me know. I'm here to help. That's why they're paying me the "big bucks"...


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 9, 2016)

Well, I do not see it as "my" thread.  In all reality, I originally posted because I again had no clue what I was doing and I needed some good advice.

And good advice is what I have often received here at BYH.

Regarding threads going off topic...

My thoughts are little tiny bunny trails off the beaten path are no problem.  And I have promised myself to be more alert and watchful so I do not "hijack" a thread.  I think I have gone way off topic at this forum in way too many ways, and I sincerely apologize.

When dozens of posts begin to occur consecutively that are nowhere even near the original topic, then I feel it can become rather confusing.  And some people may begin to lose interest who came here for answers and help.

Please let me share why I feel this way:

I believe many people come to BYH looking for help, advice, and suggestions.  Let's say a new member is looking for suggestions, advice, etc. regarding allowing sheep to give birth in the open field.  He or she discovers this thread.  As they begin to read each post, they begin to see the pros and the cons, but, suddenly the the large majority of the posts are regarding the do's and don'ts of docking tails, castration preferences, etc. Now the new member may feel confused and or lose interest in the thread.  He or she may even begin to not like BYH because there is too much discombobulation in the threads...

_I believe a healthy forum will have moderators that guard the integrity of the threads to keep the confusion at bay.  I believe it will also permit seekers to discover answers in a very easy manner that does not require sifting through dozens of non-related posts._

Just my thoughts.....

Oh, and I have joined some forums where they guard the integrity a little too much and it felt kind of oppressive.  So I suppose there is a balance to all of this!

Now I hope I haven't offended too many people, stepped on too many toes, or made too many enemies!  I especially hope I did not make any enemies in the pro-castration camp!  OUCH!


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 9, 2016)

Now take a look at that! This thread has now drifted to the discussion about drifted threads


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## Southern by choice (Dec 9, 2016)

@Goat Whisperer  you are a nut! 

You are right Soar... it does start to wind around too much. I agree there is a balance.


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## Bruce (Dec 9, 2016)

So @soarwitheagles how are those sheep doing out in the woods anyway?


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 9, 2016)

Yeah I'm wondering too 

Some pics of the lambs might help keep it on track


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## babsbag (Dec 10, 2016)

Are your sheep done with lambing? 

And because at one point we were talking about LGDs to protect your sheep I have to show what I may be taking a look at next week. We are discussing trades and price so the decision is far from being made but isn't she a pretty girl? They tell me she is very submissive which is what I would need to compliment my monster Miss Mia.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 10, 2016)

Oh Babs!  She is beautimous for sure!


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 10, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> It's really the natural way of things Soar... folks get to chatting and subjects change over time. Pretty much just like in real life. It would get pretty boring if you had to stay "on subject" for days and days... But it is your thread to proceed with as you wish  Did I get it cleaned up enough for you? If you need anything changed (more or back) just let me know. I'm here to help. That's why they're paying me the "big bucks"...



Thank you LS for your help.



Southern by choice said:


> @Goat Whisperer  you are a nut!
> 
> You are right Soar... it does start to wind around too much. I agree there is a balance.



SBC, my concern is it gets too confusing if we veer too far off the beaten path [beaten path = original topic of the thread].



Bruce said:


> So @soarwitheagles how are those sheep doing out in the woods anyway?



Thanks for the interest Bruce.  The sheep in the woods are still doing well.  But today they all decided to hang out for now in the manger [it has been raining most of the day].  See pic!

BUT I still do not have a shelter for the mama's and little new born lambs.  These sheep are presently located on the east side of the property and they hang out in the cold rain.  I hope it will not be a problem because I will not have time to build a new shelter for a few more weeks...see pic!

*What are your thoughts on keeping sheep in the field without a shelter in the winter?*



Goat Whisperer said:


> Yeah I'm wondering too
> 
> Some pics of the lambs might help keep it on track



Great idea GW, I am including two pics I took a couple of minutes ago in the rain...



babsbag said:


> Are your sheep done with lambing?
> 
> And because at one point we were talking about LGDs to protect your sheep I have to show what I may be taking a look at next week. We are discussing trades and price so the decision is far from being made but isn't she a pretty girl? They tell me she is very submissive which is what I would need to compliment my monster Miss Mia.
> 
> View attachment 25146



Beautiful dog babs!  Hope you can have her!

Lambing here has just begun again after a 2-3 month lull.  We had two sets of twins a couple of weeks ago, now another 3-4 ewes appear ready to drop lambs any day.  I believe we will have non-stop lambing from now until May.

Have a great day everyone!

We are receiving much needed rain now...yeah!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

When we had sheep they would go in the shelter sometimes.
We did not breed our sheep so never any lambs.
I know a few people that have larger flocks of sheep and no shelters. One farm, in the south lost lambs every year but after one years loss of just too many lambs  they built a pole barn and lambing areas. Too much rain and temp drops.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 10, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> When we had sheep they would go in the shelter sometimes.
> We did not breed our sheep so never any lambs.
> I know a few people that have larger flocks of sheep and no shelters. One farm, in the south lost lambs every year but after one years loss of just too many lambs  they built a pole barn and lambing areas. Too much rain and temp drops.



Thank you for sharing SBC.  I purchased a quantity of six metal panels that measure 10'x10' a couple of weeks ago at an auction.  It was an incredible deal at only $5 per panel.  These panels are constructed of 2"x2" square tubing with super heavy duty wire mesh in the center [will work well for a ventilated shelter] .  I hope to build a new manger out of these metal panels that will measure 10'x20'.  This should give us ample room for 20-25 sheep.  For $30 I am super happy to have found this deal!  It should work well to help sheep in the open field to find shelter during some of the stronger storms that will hit us.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

That is a good deal.

Having a run in is always beneficial. Also having a few panels where you can do a makeshift stall/pen is always good for when a ewe needs to recuperate after a rough lambing, or just when conditions aren't great and lambs would be best to have a few days to get started successfully.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

babsbag said:


> They tell me she is very submissive which is what I would need to compliment my monster Miss Mia.



uh oh.

I sure wonder what they mean by submissive. I hear "fear"... "timid". Personally I would never get a "submissive" dog.

@soarwitheagles  it is a shame you live so far away. It would be so great for you to see Not Leo, Callie, D, Pete, Silver... so you could see what very serious but very stable dogs are like.
Do I have a few that you can't get close too? Yes, BUT off site they are fine and can go to the vets, in public etc.

Not sure if this is getting off topic so say so if it is. I know you are looking at ways to protect your flock. I cannot imagine not having a guardian with them lambing in the open.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 10, 2016)

SBC,

We have tons of the cattle panels, and I too like the freedom to move them anywhere at moments notice, but _I would like to build a covered pen where the sheep can find shelter from the storms when out in the forest or field._

So here is the picture of the metal I purchased for $30.  I suppose I should not have called them panels.  Perhaps it is simply junk metal that nobody wanted.  For me, I thought about spraying them with rust proof paint, setting four pieces parallel vertically, then place the two remaining pieces on top to form the roof.  I would plywood the top and cover with a tarp for temporary shelter for the sheep in the field or forest...

We are on a super tight budget at the moment and we cannot afford to build a nice pole barn...

Our winters are fairly mild compared to most of our nation, so we do not need special insulation from brutal winters for extra warmth...but I am not comfortable leaving sheep out in the field during our cool winter rainy season with no shelter...especially after losing one lamb last year to pneumonia.

What do you think?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

You got those for $30

 I need a deal like that!

Those are fantastic! 
What will you use to secure them?
They are heavy and I would imagine they will take some strong supports.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 10, 2016)

I also purchased 6 pallets of 4"x6"x16' pressure treated posts.  So I was thinking of sinking six of the posts, 3 in each side to hold the walls  up.  But now I am diverting from the original thread topic, so I will begin a new thread titled, "Ideas and suggestions for making a quick, inexpensive, shelter for sheep."

Thanks again!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

Personally that imo gets more confusing
It is starting a thread and coming to a conclusion and finishing a thread.


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## babsbag (Dec 10, 2016)

Those are awesome panels. I could put those to work in many many projects. Good score.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 10, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Personally that imo gets more confusing
> It is starting a thread and coming to a conclusion and finishing a thread.



SBC,

Thank you for sharing.  My concern is as I ask questions about how to build an inexpensive sheep shelter the thread will have departed from its original purpose of sharing concerns about sheep living and giving birth in the open fields and forests...and perhaps there will be many, many people with excellent ideas on how to build a sheep shelter...and the posts could go on and on and on...

The rain here has not stopped.  The main herd has chosen to remain in their covered shelter, not even venturing out to the forest for food.  I have never seen this before, and I think these sheep are speaking to me through their actions: They do best having a covered shelter when it is raining.  Perhaps leaving sheep out in the cold rain in the fields and/or forest for days at a time is not such a great idea.

So now I am scrambling to set up a quick shelter and hopefully have it complete by today.  I hope to build a more permanent shelter during the Christmas break.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

Soar, do you have a journal? 
A journal is also a great way to keep track of events and times ... it is fun to look at your progression a year, two, three later.
Of course sheep shelters would be a good thread on it's own but journals also allow people to follow your farm in particular.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 10, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> Soar, do you have a journal?
> A journal is also a great way to keep track of events and times ... it is fun to look at your progression a year, two, three later.
> Of course sheep shelters would be a good thread on it's own but journals also allow people to follow your farm in particular.



SBC,

I did have a log book I used in my attempt to keep track of immunizations, dewormers, etc. but to be honest with you, I have totally slacked off in this area!

Is there a place at this website to keep a journal?  

My other option is to set up voice recognition on Google Keep like I did for our bee apiary.  Google Keep was incredibly helpful in this area with the bees because it was imperative to keep detailed notes on the various aspects of each hive!

BTW, does anyone else here use voice recognition for typing messages here?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 10, 2016)

Go to the bottom of BYH under social-
There is a section called 
Member's "BackYardHerds" Journals
Read through the how to begin section first.

I had voice years ago but never used it here.
I did a voice text to someone on here last week and hit send before I re-read what I said.

Oh good Lord! It put in other words that were really bad. When you say BUCK--- that isn't what went through. 
Didn't know whether to laugh or cry. I was mortified!


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 11, 2016)

I will be very careful when I speak into the voice recognition mic and try to limit my use of the word "Buck!"

Thank you for your clear directions on how to begin a journal.  I think it could be very helpful so I hope to start one ASAP!

As mentioned in another thread, we are on a super tight budget, so we cannot afford to pay full TS, HD, Lowe's, etc. full price on material.  I often go to auctions, looking for super good deals.  Recently I was in the ghetto called Stockton, CA and found some more incredible deals.  Often people are simply trying to get rid of their junk and the price is incredibly low.  I am finding the truth in the saying, "What is one man's junk is another man's treasure."

After reading Goat Whisperer's posts and seeing *her* pics of a hoop house built with the cattle panels, I have decided to go that route for now.  What is really nice about these shelters is that they are portable and movable.  I really like that!

So now our sheep will have shelters in the forest and the fields when they so desire.  Who knows, perhaps the ewes will choose to give birth to their lambs in the hoopla hoop houses!

Thanks again everyone for your help!


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 11, 2016)

HIS ????

Woman power all the way


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 11, 2016)

So sorry GW!

Correction done!


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 11, 2016)

No harm done


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