# CAE/CL



## lupinfarm (Dec 1, 2009)

When we got our two does, I didn't know about CAE/CL. They came from a small hobby farm that had 2 horses and a donkey plus about 7 goats (the goats were being sold so the owners could focus more on their horses, the daughter was only young but loved to compete and they goats were hogging the barn). We didn't have the girls tested for CAE/CL but have also never shown symptoms of either. They were only ever exposed to one other goat on their previous property, a buck from another farm.

I found this on a website from the US, and it worries me a little..

"Smooth knee pads can be an indication of CAE infection"

As far as I know, my girls do have fairly smooth knee pads/knees. I haven't felt them, but they don't look rough. My two goats often kneel and lie down in their house and never have problems getting up. No swollen joints, etc. I know that CAE can be silent, ie, no symptoms.

Am I worrying for nothing right now? I am calling the vet tomorrow to look at getting blood taken... is this something I can do myself and bring it in to them, or should I just get the vet to do it?


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## houndit (Dec 1, 2009)

I did not know about C.A.E. when I bought goats either.  I learned about it later.  Our goats show no symptoms.  They are all positive however.  We had them all tested.   I had a friend show me how to draw the blood from the jugular.  He works at a place where he could spin down the serum for mailing to Washington.  There is a good chance that they are C.A.E. positive.  I was worried at first, but since our goats continue to appear healthy I am not as worried.  I am hoping to have C.A.E. free goats eventually, simply for the amount they are worth.  I have no experience with C.L.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 1, 2009)

I'm mostly worried because we want to breed and sell our extra kids, how can I sell CAE positive kids? Our buck will be CAE negative when we get him. 

CAE apparently is kind of like HIV/AIDS, you can have HIV and live a totally normal life. I think goats can also test positive/negative falsely. I know my goats came from a farm in the Ottawa area as kids, and lived on this persons farm (my oldest, for instance, for her whole life - 2years, she was one of their original does). They have, as far as I know, only been in contact with one other goat, and that is a buck, twice. 

I'm hoping they're negative. I haven't heard of CAE a lot around here, but it seems to be something huge they talk about a lot in the US. Just like a lot of people around here don't vaccinate, neither of my goats had their CD/T vaccines when I got them.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 1, 2009)

I've spoken to some people on a goat forum who say the knee pads thing is bogus. I'm not as worried now, because come to think of it... my pony mare has arthritis in her hocks and she looks like shes hurting pretty much most of the time, she is wickedly stiff in her hocks, and on colder mornings she has to jump start in order to get walking. 

I am hoping biotracking will take blood from Canada, but I will still call my vet in the morning.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 2, 2009)

As it happens, after checking my vets website, my clinic has taken on a new vet who specializes in equines and small ruminents. Yipee for me. I'm going to call tomorrow and request an appointment with her specifically.


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## Roll farms (Dec 2, 2009)

If they are CAE positive, you could pull the kids at birth and bottle raise them on heat treated colostrum and milk, it's called raising them "CAE Prevention" and dairy folks have been doing it for years.

Not saying you should, just saying you COULD.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 2, 2009)

Thanks Roll Farms. I made an appointment to have them tested next wednesday. Lucky for me, my horses clinic just got a goat/equine vet. 

Aside from talking to you guys on here, I had never heard of CAE and it doesn't appear to be very prominent in Canada. When talking to vets, farm supply, goat breeders, most don't mention it and a lot of goat breeders out here don't test for it either. 

Our goat/sheep population however is fairly small and backyard herds of goats are pretty uncommon.


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## ThornyRidge (Dec 2, 2009)

the knee issue comes up when they are severely dibilitated with arthritis goats will "walk on their knees" this is where people assume if they have bare spots on their knees they have cae// so not true.. if you watch how goats get up and lay down  some of them and their knees get a small rounded callous like area.. that is not a sign of cae.. it is their knee   also remember that cae testing is not 100% reliable!!!  and if you don't mind extra work it is not the end of the world for some producers..


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

TR said:
			
		

> the knee issue comes up when they are severely dibilitated with arthritis goats will "walk on their knees" this is where people assume if they have bare spots on their knees they have cae// so not true..


Goats tend to walk on their knees when they have front hoof problems...not arthritis of the knee.

CAE is also called "big knee"..  If a goat has CAE, she'll be more reluctant to get down on her knees because it hurts..  So if you see a goat that does NOT have callouses on her knees, the inclination is to suspect that she's not getting on her knees as much as a normal goat would...which would lead one to suspect pain in the front knees...which would lead one to suspect CAE, since it's most commonly manifested in the front knees.

So, no...callouses in the front knees are a actually a good thing.  It's when they don't have callouses on their front knees that you might begin to suspect there might be something going on..  I think the confusion may revolve around the word "smooth"...to me, a callous is rough, so a "smooth" front knee would indicated a knee that's haired-over and uncalloused.  To someone else, though, the lack of hair and obvious bare skin might be something they'd refer to as "smooth."

If a goat had calloused front knees and didn't appear to have stiffness in any of their other joints, I personally wouldn't waste money on a test.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 3, 2009)

My two have haired over knees, but to be fair callouses are very much affected by the environment in which an animal/human lives. If I didn't live on the farm, I wouldn't have calloused hands. Plain and simple. 

My goats don't have calloused knees, but they also don't have bulbus/large knees, kneel down regularly, and don't ever appear to be stiff or in pain (I have an arthritic horse so I know what arthritis pain looks like). However both my girls live on soft ground, and they are bedded out with lots of nice hay. They don't have access to any pasture right now and the ground in their pen is very soft and grassy. It was the same situation at their old house, they had lots of straw in their house and very soft ground (they didn't have rock or platforms to go on, which would be rough surfaces and thus give them callouses). 

I watched both my girls manage to jump onto the 4ft high roof of their goat nesty house (they had about 3 of them, pretty large, that they all slept in on a thick bed of straw). 

I'm getting the tests done to be sure, but every day I start to doubt they have CAE even more.


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## cmjust0 (Dec 3, 2009)

You're absolutely right..

We have two doelings that were just integrated into our primary herd from a pen of their own, and they're still haired over.  They'll each be a year old here in a few months, and act perfectly normal.  They could regularly be seen SPRINTING from one side of their enclosure to the other, laying down, literally jumping up to run for hay or grain, bedding down together...just being normal, crazy little goats.

Their enclosure was soft, though.  Grassy, soft soil, straw bedding.  There was nothing abrasive in their area whatsoever.  Now that they're in the barnyard where there are big warm rocks and the trunk of a gigantic dead white oak to climb up and lay down on, I expect they'll be calloused pretty soon.  Not concerned at all.

Like I said earlier, seeing haired-over knees is when one _might begin to suspect_ that something _might_ be going on.  If there are other explanations for hairy knees, well...it's not like there's anything in particular about CAE that makes them _grow_ hair on their knees..  

Personally....I doubt your does have CAE, based on what you've said.


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## lupinfarm (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks cm, I'm getting the tests anyway.. it's costing a fortune ($150.00 for two does) but it's worth it for piece of mind. I'm on a waiting list for March for a pygmy buck and nigi wether and I want to sell some of our resulting kids, so the cae negativity is a huge bonus to me.


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