# Doe rolling over on purpose and other weird tricks...



## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 8, 2009)

So, we just got our does on Saturday and so I am generally unfamiliar with goat behavior.  We have a doe who is 2 years old.  The breeder we got her from says that she might possibly be bred because the buck kept jumping the fence about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

She is a very sweet girl, eats well, drinks well, poops, pees, all that stuff.  Her coat is shiny, eyes clear.  I noticed her today rolling in the straw on purpose.  I mean, rolling all the way over just like when you train a dog to do a trick.  I saw her do that at least three times at different times during the day.  Then today, my father in law came over to see the goats.  Oreo came over and rolled over again.  Then she did this weird thing where she got down on her front knees and walked with her back feet to that she looked like a little wheel-barrow.  It was funny.  We all laughed and then she hopped up looking satisfied, and then went about munching some hay.

The breeder says she had never seen Oreo do tricks or act crazy, but at her place, Oreo was in the middle of the herd.  Here, she is already Queen.

Hopefully she is just being a clown, but I don't know if there might be something wrong with her.  I thought goats were not supposed to roll over.


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## freemotion (Sep 8, 2009)

You simply must film that and put it on youtube for us!!!  Please?


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## lupinfarm (Sep 8, 2009)

That sounds entirely normal to me  She's rolling like a horse, stretching out the back muscles, like when you give a good stretch in the morning. I know my girls roll, because they are always covered in HAY! ... My pony will go down for a roll about twice a day, more in the winter because of the blanket, and she'll get a few good full rolls in (managing to roll all the way over front one side to the other) and she is always perkier and happier after. My gelding could never get all the way over, he was just too fat!


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

No, not normal behavior.
Rolling over generally means either they itch so bad(bugs) that they can not stand it or they have a tummy ache. If a goat rolls too much and gets stuck upside down, she will die. I would find out why she is rolling. Have they all been vaccinated? What about their diet?
As  far as the walking on the front knee behavior,  that can be a sign of CAE(a form of incurable arthritis). It hurts to stand normally, so they surcome to getting down on their knees to relieve the pain. Goats will kneel down on their knees to grab that leaf out from under a fence or to stick their nose way down into something they can not reach, but to do that out in the open for no reason is not normal.


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## lupinfarm (Sep 9, 2009)

*shrug* I thought pretty much all animals rolled to stretch their backs. Ah well, maybe my girls are just messy..


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> No, not normal behavior.
> Rolling over generally means either they itch so bad(bugs) that they can not stand it or they have a tummy ache. If a goat rolls too much and gets stuck upside down, she will die. I would find out why she is rolling. Have they all been vaccinated? What about their diet?
> As  far as the walking on the front knee behavior,  that can be a sign of CAE(a form of incurable arthritis). It hurts to stand normally, so they surcome to getting down on their knees to relieve the pain. Goats will kneel down on their knees to grab that leaf out from under a fence or to stick their nose way down into something they can not reach, but to do that out in the open for no reason is not normal.


Well, I do appreciate this response.  She is up to date on her vaccinations.  She was given Ivermec by the breeder the day we brought her home (9/5).  I did notice her scratching her back thigh several times yesterday.  It has been SO rainy here and we have a lot of flies, gnats mostly.  I did put out fly paper yesterday and sprayed the girls with some homemade fly repellant last night.

A tummy ache is possible.  I mean, I tried to get the same grain and hay that she was eating at her former home, but the browse that she has access to is probably different.  She is eating 16% pelleted grain from Southern States.  She gets 1/3 C in the am and 1/3 C in the pm.  Free choice alfalfa hay.  Browse is mostly blackberry vines, wild roses and locust tree leaves.  Should I give her some baking soda and see if that helps?

As for CAE, the herd she came from has tested negative the last three years (before that, they had not been tested).  I don't think it is arthritis because she runs and jumps and climbs and otherwise makes a nuisance of herself, and she stands on her back legs to reach really high leaves.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 9, 2009)

I've never seen a goat roll over, and given that it can be very dangerous for them, I wouldn't think they'd really have an instinct to do it.  Horses, ya, but horses aren't ruminants...big difference there.

As for the knee walking, the only time I've seen a goat do that for any length of time was earlier this Spring (wet!) when we had one get a little scald between the claws on one of her front feet.  Her foot hurt, so she'd walk on her knees and eat.  

The external parasite thing makes some sense to me, though...and maybe she was knee-walking to scratch her brisket or something?

Keep an eye on this..  I'm really not sure what to make of it.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 9, 2009)

Knee walking can also be a sign of founder....


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## ksalvagno (Sep 9, 2009)

Do you give them free choice baking soda? They do need that free choice.

Do they have free choice minerals out too? I had read somewhere that goats can be itchy if they are deficient in their minerals. I was a little slow in getting my goats their minerals and I had noticed that they started scratching a lot. I got them their minerals and they stopped. I realize we are talking about rolling here but I thought I would bring it up.

If the goats have lice or mites, it will take more than one Ivomec shot to get rid of them.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 9, 2009)

I have only seen her knee walk once, and that was only about three steps.  I don't know if it is cause for alarm...

As for the rolling over, yesterday, she rolled over one time on two (I said three in the OP, but that was a mistype on my part) occassions.  The first time, she was sort of going down hill.  She laid down and was scratching and I think it was probably an accident.  She seemed surprised and hopped up.  The other time was when we had visitors.  It has just stopped raining and the flies and mosquitos had just come out.  I am thinking (hoping) it is all  related to unscratchable itches.

I will keep a close eye on her today and see what she does. She is such a funny, sweet girl.  I hope everything is okay with her.  Here are a few pictures.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

If you can, take a very close look at their coat just to make sure that is not a problem. Part the hair and see if you can not find any bugs. Usually they will be near the tail head, by the hears on the back of the neck, down the topline or on the belly.
I would give them all some probios or sav-a-caf in their water bucks just for a few days to make sure their gut stays normal. I would skip the baking soda. That can cause more of a problem than good.
I would check a good site(Purdue has one) for the Locust leaves,..I'm not sure if they are toxic or not.
Good to hear about the CAE testing,  I would keep an eye on that though. The knees/joints will not always swell up with either/any form of arthritis. 
Yes, could be scald/bacterial infection too just at the hoof line or between the toes. I would check the hoof/leg line for any cracking, peeling or signs of irritation and have a good look at her hooves to make sure nothing is going on there.
Something is going on with her....

Yep, horses should not roll all the way over either.....side to side occasionally, but if they are making full roll overs, something is wrong.


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## crazygoatlady (Sep 9, 2009)

I bought angora goats years ago and had a couple of does walk on knees and the vet told me they could be selemium deficiency I checked the area that I bought the goats from and the area was lower in SE, after dosing them with something that the vet gave me-now I think it must have been BOSE, it took care of the problem, I would really watch them for any changes at all- catch it before it becomes a health problem.    No, rolling like that isn't normal--intestines can twist like sheep, then they die.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

They all look very pretty with very shiny coats!!
Oreo does need some more weight though,.. the others look to have enough condition on them... once you have them a while and keep up your good feed, I bet they all will really look pretty by next spring!

It could have been isolated, I agree. If the knee walking is a serious problem(arthritis), it won't kill her. Just watch to see if that was isolated.

Down the road, there is a person that has 2 emaciated goats(bones showing) that have been crawling on their knees for the last 3 years. Makes me want to cry, but they continue to live.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Yep, horses should not roll all the way over either.....side to side occasionally, but if they are making full roll overs, something is wrong.


I don't know that much about horses, really, but I was always told that a horse was worth $100 for each time it could roll completely over.

Never have I heard someone say that a horse rolling over was a bad thing.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

Oh yeah!!  Horses gets colic like goats get bloat. 
Rolling is one of the first signs...

People probably like to see horses rolling , but it's not good when they roll all the way over.... horses that are stalled can get down like that with colic and they can not get them up,.... the rolling turns into thrashing and then you have other problems,....most horse people are on colic like us goat people watch for bloat.....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Oh yeah!!  Horses gets colic like goats get bloat.
> Rolling is one of the first signs...
> 
> People probably like to see horses rolling , but it's not good when they roll all the way over.... horses that are stalled can get down like that with colic and they can not get them up,.... the rolling turns into thrashing and then you have other problems,....most horse people are on colic like us goat people watch for bloat.....


Gotcha.  

My wife keeps aggravating me about wanting horses, but truth be told...I'm trying hard NOT to become a horse person.  I've got too much on my plate already!


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

Yep, well my husband loves horses, so you see where that was going?  I went along with the mini horse. As long as he does what I tell him, he'll get to stay....


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## cmjust0 (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Yep, well my husband loves horses, so you see where that was going?  I went along with the mini horse. As long as he does what I tell him, he'll get to stay....


The husband, or the horse?  Or both?


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

Humans/goats/ rabbits and chickens all get to be brats,...but the horse is just too darn big to get away with bad things,...LOL!!


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 9, 2009)

Okay, I checked her over quite thoroughly.  She will pretty much let you do anything.  She is very calm and un-grumpy.  I did not see any lice or mites on her, but she does have dry skin.  I do have minerals out free choice, Sweetlix MeatMaker.

I also put sav a calf in their water because I just happened to have some.  So far, they are turned their noses up at it.  We will see if anyone ever drinks it.    I checked her eyes, and according to the FAMANCHA chart, she is in the "acceptable" zone.  if she does need wormed again, what should I use since she just have Ivermec?  

So, is dry skin a sign of a mineral deficiency?

There does seem to be a lot of flies out there, too.  I don't know what to do about that.  Their bedding and pen are very clean.  It is just SO darn wet out there.


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## broke down ranch (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Oh yeah!!  Horses gets colic like goats get bloat.
> Rolling is one of the first signs...
> 
> People probably like to see horses rolling , but it's not good when they roll all the way over.... horses that are stalled can get down like that with colic and they can not get them up,.... the rolling turns into thrashing and then you have other problems,....most horse people are on colic like us goat people watch for bloat.....


I have to disagree. My husband owned horses for several years and says rolling is not a sign of colic. Not pooping and trying to lay down (not rolling over, just laying down) and unwilling to get up IS. Rolling completely over is just their way to try and scratch their back where they normally can't reach. Most horses that do NOT roll all the way over usually can't because they are too old or too fat....  I can't count how many horses I have seen on their back wiggling around trying to get a good scratch then they stand up, give a real good shake, and go back to grazing.

Which is probably all this goat was trying to do - get a good scratching. I can't count how many times I've had an itch in the middle of my back and had to use the wall to get it. Every living creature gets an itch sometimes in a spot it can't reach....


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## lupinfarm (Sep 9, 2009)

Rolling is NOT sign of colic in horses. Rolling constantly, sitting on their bum, lying down for hours, not pooping or passing gas (and actually, there is a type of colic that has a symptom of passing gas a lot lol) are signs of colic. There are MANY different types of colic. Horses that roll daily, or every other day are NORMAL, rolling stretches out the back muscles in a horse. Wouldn't you want to roll if you were standing up all day carrying 900+lbs of weight? My pony will down for periods of time, in the winter especially she'll find a good spot and hunker down, or in the summer she will sun herself by lying flat on her side. 

She has never colicked to the best of my knowledge, is on pasture 24/7 365 and gets 4 cups of Purina Horse Chow a day plus free choice hay when the pasture is low.


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## cmjust0 (Sep 9, 2009)

So, I found this ..  Kinda makes it sound like rolling over on it's back isn't something a goat should ever _want_ to do..

It makes sense, when you think about it..  A full rumen would be heavy...when the goat flips over, the contents invert and take the center of gravity down with them..  I can totally see how a flipped goat -- or any ruminant -- would have an extraordinarily difficult time righting themselves, given that they'd probably have to get those rumen contents sloshing enough to shift the center of gravity again..  

I mean...seems like the rumen would turn them into something akin to a weeble-wobble once they got on their back...right?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 9, 2009)

Do goats have problems with uterine torsion?

In late gestation alpacas, rolling a lot usually means they have a uterine torsion.

Alpacas love to roll in the dust. They usually don't roll completely over but every once in a while they will.


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## freemotion (Sep 9, 2009)

trestlecreek said:
			
		

> Oh yeah!!  Horses gets colic like goats get bloat.
> Rolling is one of the first signs...
> 
> People probably like to see horses rolling , but it's not good when they roll all the way over.... horses that are stalled can get down like that with colic and they can not get them up,.... the rolling turns into thrashing and then you have other problems,....most horse people are on colic like us goat people watch for bloat.....


Well, I hope that is true, because colic is extremely rare in well-kept horses.  I managed a show stable for 10 years and saw colic twice...once as a reaction to a med, and once, mildly, in a mare who couldn't eat enough to support nursing her four-month-old large colt, who I ended up weaning earlier than I liked to for the sake of the mare.

There is an old saying that when a horse gets down to roll, he is worth $500 for each time he goes completely over.  That saying I heard about 30 years ago, so with inflation....

When a horse rolls completely over in a confined space, it can end up with it's legs folded against its body and then it is unable to straighten them to rise.  This is called getting "cast."  This is dangerous because a horse cannot stay down for long, even when sleeping.  Since in nature they are prey animals, they panic if they cannot get up, and will struggle and fight, and with their strength and size, can cause themselves serious injury in the struggle.

I learned a few weeks ago about goats getting cast and the impact on the rumen.  Not a good thing at all.  To be avoided at all costs!  My doeling was fine in the end, but she gave us a good scare.


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## trestlecreek (Sep 9, 2009)

Yes, (on Oreo), if she were here, I would re-Ivomec 14 days from the last dose.
You can put fly spray on her to help keep the flys off.
A would bargain more for a fungal infection rather than a mineral deficiency..... your minerals are fine. You can get a shampoo with Chorohexadine to combat many skin conditions....

As far as the rolling in goats, yes, torsion can be a problem.

As far as rolling w/horses,...guess we'll all have to disagree on that. I know many whom had horses for years and all of them would never want to see a horse roll all the way around..... I've taken many LA classes as well and all material of which point rolling as being a sign in the wrong direction....


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## username taken (Sep 9, 2009)

oh good grief!

let the animals be animals, let them roll, scratch their back and dust bath! 

That doe is the picture of health, look at that shiny hair, albeit she is a bit thin. 

Goats will roll over, twist and carry on, sunbake and generally enjoy themselves. Its normal, and shows they are enjoying themselves. Getting cast is not a common problem, and occurs most in heavy pregnant does as they just cannot move their sheer bulk. Similarly, LDA (left displaced abomasum) is VERY rare in goats. 

As far as CAE is concerned, tc you have it backwards. CAE affected animals find it PAINFUL to be on their knees, so they spend more time standing. One of the first signs is that they lose the bald patch on their knees which healthy goats have from laying down, because they avoid bearing weight on their knees at all costs. 

The kneeling while grazing can be indicative of a hoof problem, or it can simply be a quirk of that particular animal, especially if she is not doing it all the time. My girls get on their knees because they think they can reach further through the fence that way, and the silly buggers will sometimes do it even when they are not reaching through the fence.


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## lupinfarm (Sep 9, 2009)

It's not ideal for a horse to roll in a small area, stall, close to a fence because they can become cast easily and seriously injure themselves, however, This article  is informative, and infact says that " The way a horse rolls is an indicator of its health. A healthy horse with a good, strong back will vigorously roll from one side to the other without standing up first. " 

Another article I came across stated that if your horse has a history of colic or if colic is a potential risk factor for you (and for quite a lot of horse owners, it is not), then a roll can be deadly in that they land too harshly on their side and this can cause the gas to ... well... explode in a sense. 

My pony ain't dead yet, she's healthy, happy, rolls all the time, and isn't colicky or foundery.


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## bheila (Sep 9, 2009)

Every time I change the shavings in the goat shed one of my does LOVES to get down and walk around on her front knees.  My guess is she's spreading her scent around and loving the smell of the new shavings.  Yesterday when I changed the shavings she actually got down and almost rolled over, she was all the way on her back but didn't complete the roll.   She just loves the clean shavings that much.


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## kimmyh (Sep 10, 2009)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> trestlecreek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL That $100.00 thing is what I heard when I was little. The only part of it that seems to be true, is a well coordinated horse seems to be be able to go back and forth. Less coordinated horses have to get up and lay down again. I hate seeing a horse roll, they can twist a gut in short order.


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## Mini-M Ranch (Sep 11, 2009)

WELL...didn't mean to start a big debate...

I checked the poisonous plants resource, and locust trees ARE poisonous to animals, especially horses.  The good news is that the trees that we have that I thought were locust trees are actually Walnut trees.  So, the good news is that I am not up on my tree identification

We have had two dry days and the mosquito and gnat populations have decreased tremendously.  I haven't seen nearly as much scratching and NO attempts to roll.  Oreo does have some dry skin, so I added about 5 pounds of BOSS to the 50 pounds of pellets and mixed it all well.  Hopefully the oil from the seeds will help moisturize her coat.  I really hate to give her a bath right now as I think she is still stressed from the move.

As for the knee walking, I kinda think she just likes to do it for "fun".  We have built a little platform for them to run around on in the pen.  It is on a little downslope, so there is about 18 inches of space underneath the back side of it.  My husband was up under there last night adding some extra decking screws since it has become the favorite place to stand and have butt-offs.  Oreo got down on her front knees and slinked up in there so she could sit with her nose in his face while he was trying to work.  

As for the sav-a-calf...no one will drink it.  They keep looking in the buckets like, "You ain't foolin' me, sister.  I'm not drinking your magic potion!"


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## trestlecreek (Sep 11, 2009)

Yep, you don't want them going without water then....the probios from the tube or sav-a-caf in a drench would probably be the better option then... my goats love the sav-a-calf, but they are not all alike! 

The BOSS could help, but I am very careful regarding BOSS, the fat content is very high,....which could slow motility of the gut,....it could do more harm than good if over done...

Yep, maybe the knee walking is a weird learned behavior on her part? As long as nothing else is wrong,...could be......


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