# Help electrical shock!!



## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)

Our fence was making a clicking sound. I think the electricity is as jumping. Anyway it must have jumped to the metal part on the door step. My son stepped on it and immediately yelled. It shocked him and he jumped on the grass and he was holding his left side. He said his feet knees and legs were hurting the most. He said his whole body was in pain. 

We are in his room now. He wanted to lay down. I’m with him. He says it only now hurts his feet. He overall just feels shook up from it. 

It was just one from a tractor supply. The one for pigs. We bought the cheapest one that would keep pigs in. 

Advice?


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 17, 2018)

Can you post pics of the setup? How did you install the electric fence/energizer?
How is it grounded?


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)

I’ll get it. He seems fine now.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)




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## greybeard (Sep 17, 2018)

Oh good grief.... That picture may be the best ever example of how NOT to hook up an electric fence.
You are supposed to have INSULATED lead-in / 'hook up' wires at the charger/energizer.
Insulated to 20Kv. Better still 

 , if both + and - lead out wires are insulated.

All it takes is a bit of moisture on the door facing or jamb and the door handle, flashing and metal threshold is going to get electrified.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/american-farmworks-underground-cable-50-ft

_
Our American FarmWorks 50-Foot Underground Cable is for use between fence charger and fence line or under permanent gates.

_


_

Can be used with high tensile fence system

Double insulation limits voltage loss

Insulation rated up to 20,000 volts (20Kv)

12-1/2 gauge, Class III galvanized wire

UV-protected to resist weathering
_


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)

That’s like foreign talk to me. We’ve never done this before. Ever!!


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## greybeard (Sep 17, 2018)

The charger should have come with instructions to that effect. There is also, in every Tractor Supply I've ever been in, a brochure near the chargers with good instructions..free.


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## mysunwolf (Sep 17, 2018)

You might consider going to Premier1 website and looking up some instructions for installing chargers as well. They also have good videos. Next time buy a charger from them, they are idiot-proof (I include myself in that statement) and come with insulated connectors that have easy clamps for charge line and ground.


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## greybeard (Sep 17, 2018)

This is easy-peasy and there's probably 25 threads and hundreds of posts here at BYH on how to probably connect a fence charger to a fence wire.  
See #3 below.

_
*THE SEVEN SINS OF
FENCE CONTROLLER INSTALLATIONS*

*1.* An *insufficient* ground system for the fence controller. (Refer to Step 2 of the installation instructions.)
*2.* *Stray voltage *may occur when the fence controller ground system is located within *50 ft.* of a utility ground, buried water pipe, or buried telephone wire. (Refer to Step 2 of the installation instructions and Radio Interference Section.)
*3.* *Inadequately* insulated lead-out wire and jumper wires (wire must be insulated to 20,000V minimum). (Refer to Step 1 of the installation instructions.)
*4.* The ground wire is not adequately insulated and is located 20 ft. or more from fence controller. (Refer to Step 2 of the installation instructions.)
*5.* *Inferior* connections and splices of the fence wire, ground wire, lead-out wire, and jumper wires. (Refer to Step 3 of the installation instructions.)
*6.* Substandard fence wire insulation: cracked insulators, poor quality insulators, water hose, plastic tubing, or the use of wood posts without insulators. (Refer to Step 3 of the installation instructions.)
*7.* The fence controller is underpowered for the condition of the fence being energized (i.e., rain, snow, ice, vegetation, rusty wire, and length of fence). (Refer to "How Electric Fencing
Works" in this manual.)_

https://www.afence.com/Electric_Fence/how_to_elecfence/elecinstall.htm


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)

mysunwolf said:


> You might consider going to Premier1 website and looking up some instructions for installing chargers as well. They also have good videos. Next time buy a charger from them, they are idiot-proof (I include myself in that statement) and come with insulated connectors that have easy clamps for charge line and ground.


Thank you. I appreciate your help. I’ll go look tonight.


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## Simpleterrier (Sep 17, 2018)

Oh boy the first good shock I got nailed climbing a fence after a rain storm I was maybe 10. I had to go lay down for awhile.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)

Thanks for the reply. He was all better very quickly. I’m just a worried mama.


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## Simpleterrier (Sep 17, 2018)

My son is 6 and got nailed in the head crawling under ours. I thought he was gonna be hurting he just rubbed it off and kept on going. We heard the zap from about 100 ft away.


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## greybeard (Sep 17, 2018)

Around 1J at 5000V is a pretty good shock, but the  relatively long period of time between impulses helps make it less traumatic than it might otherwise be  if it were 60 cycle house current type frequency..that's 60 "impulses" per and every  second..or at least that's the way our minds perceive it.

Less expensive or economy grade chargers impulses last .003 to .3 seconds and the better chargers have impulses lasting only .0003 seconds. The time between pulses varies with the manufacturer, but it's generally only one pulse every 1 to 2 seconds.

House current cycles 60 times in the same amount of time, but that doesn't mean it actually only shocks 60 times per second or even has an 'off' period. It only means that the polarity changes at that rate. The amount of time where the electrons stop moving is extremely short lived in AC current.  It's in the billionths of a second. That's the part our minds have problems perceiving.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 17, 2018)

Simpleterrier said:


> My son is 6 and got nailed in the head crawling under ours. I thought he was gonna be hurting he just rubbed it off and kept on going. We heard the zap from about 100 ft away.


That’s crazy. I feel way better now!  lol


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## greybeard (Sep 17, 2018)

The zap's sound  isn't actually the spark, as 'electricity' itself moves silently except when it moves thru air at high current and voltage levels. The noise is the air molecules crashing back together after being pushed apart by the spark..mini thunder.


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 17, 2018)

The other posters gave you good info.
Please unplug your charger/energizer until you have the proper equipment.


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## secuono (Sep 18, 2018)

TSC sells insulated hotwire. Make sure you buy the right kind, should be with all the other hot fence items.
Drill two holes through your metal wall and thread one insulated wire through each hole. Then hook up to fence and energizer.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 18, 2018)

I emailed the company suggested and they simply said a hose on the hot wire will do just fine. Had no issues with us going through the door. So that made me happy. 

Thanks all!!


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## greybeard (Sep 18, 2018)

Healthy Skeptic said:


> I emailed the company suggested and they simply said a hose on the hot wire will do just fine. Had no issues with us going through the door. So that made me happy.
> 
> Thanks all!!


Was it American Fence or Premier that said that? (the only 2 companies linked to in this thread) 
Did they happen to say what the voltage rating of "hose" was?

Lots of people have tried to use anything from vacuum line to garden hose and all have a 'shocking' story to rue because of it.
Hoses crack over time, especially if the hose is run over the wire where the door closes on it and of course,  where the hose stops on the fence end allows water and moisture in and you will likely be right back where you were. Insulated wire is sealed off and no moisture can migrate in.

https://www.premier1supplies.com/c/fencing/insulated-wire


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 18, 2018)

Premier Is the one who emailed me. They were so kind.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 18, 2018)

What they said...

Hello,
The wire that is hooked to the Red knob is a Hot wire. The needs to be insulated.

Do you have any garden hose you can cut and run the wire thru? Or Insulators?


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## greybeard (Sep 18, 2018)

Healthy Skeptic said:


> What they said...
> 
> Hello,
> The wire that is hooked to the Red knob is a Hot wire. The needs to be insulated.
> ...



Thanks. I'll email them a link to this thread and perhaps they'll reconsider.
I do very much suspect all their competitors will be laughing their rear ends off over that 'sage' advice.

From Kencove fencing, one of the largest and best known electric fence companies in the US:
_Use at least one 12½ gauge double insulated cable as your leadout. Two or more joined in parallel are better, as this lowers the resistance of the wire._
https://kencove.com/fence/100_Fence+Construction_resource.php

From Premier:
_Energizer Installation & Operation Instructions 
1. Keep energizer ground system 30 to 40 ft away from any other electrical ground source. This includes house ground systems and wells. 
2. Use only galvanized lead-out wire and galv. ground rods. Do not use copper lead-out wire or copper ground rods. 
3. Use only insulated wire designed for electric fencing. Do not use wire rated at less than 10,000 volts._


https://www.premier1supplies.com/img/instruction/35.pdf

I can assure you, that every manufacturer and every distributor and every installer of electric fence energizers will tell you the same thing..use the double insulated lead out cable.
Cheap insurance against injury, voltage bleed off, and loss of livestock.

There are dozens and dozens of electric fence threads on this board, and hundreds, if not thousands across the internet. They all say the same thing too.
Double insulated lead out wire.

Why is a garden hose (and most other hoses) a bad idea? Because of what they were made to do, and it isn't to insulate us from electricity.  They are designed and made to keep water in most of the time and water is made up of molecules. 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom bound together. That's all a hose is made to do..keep water molecules inside even under water well pressure. Just keep the water from squeezing between the plastic molecules of the hose. Pretty small, water molecules are, each is about 0.000282 millionths of a meter in diameter.......but then, everything is relative.
There are 3 atoms in a water molecule. Each of those atoms is 100 million times bigger than an electron. Electricity is electrons, moving. Bumped off the outer orbit of a wire (conductor) atom.

Wire insulation,  is made to keep electrons in, and electrons are really really REALLY small. It's not the thickness that matters most..it's the density...how close together the molecules are packed together.  Compared to an electron, a  water (or air or anything) molecule is humongous.   Electrons are so small that no one has been able to determine their true size, but they have calculated the largest their radius could be, and that's one billionth billionth of a meter. One 1/billionth of a billionth of a meter.
 Any covering that can keep an electron in, can keep an atom or molecule in, but  the inverse cannot be said to be true. Most garden variety garden hoses will bleed electrons like an old worn out sock. The material the hose is made from only has to be dense enough to keep a big ol water molecule inside. 

But ultimately, the choice is your own.


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## Wehner Homestead (Sep 19, 2018)

Running wires through a doorway isn’t advisable. The door won’t seal properly and could even blow open easier during certain weather conditions exposing the contents to less than preferred circumstances (rain, snow, wind, hail.) 

Ours is NOT wired that way. The insulated wires leave our charger (inside the building and actually on the opposite side) and go underground to the fence from the building. They have small exposed area where they are attached to the wires that we’d like to carry the electricity. This makes only the actual fence a risk for human shock. Much safer for all involved. 

Note: my three children have never been shocked. They learned to stay away from the fence by happening to witness a dog, pig, or calf making contact. That’s all it took for them and they keep their distance.


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## Latestarter (Sep 19, 2018)

The person that gave you the advice via email, or via phone call, was almost assuredly NOT a professional or electrician, as they would have NEVER told you that. They were probably some 20 year old hourly employee, paid to answer the phone or emails and "satisfy the customer" at all costs.

Nobody here is "picking on you" or "downing you"... they/we are ALL trying to HELP you. To explain to you HOW to do it right and more importantly... WHY to do it right. If that hot wire becomes exposed due to rubbing against the door jam and door, and electrifies the sill, and there's a puddle of water on the ground outside, and someone steps in that damp ground and grabs the door knob, what could the result be? The cost in $$ and time to do it right, is far less than the cost of the potential tragedy could be... Electricity is NOT your friend! It is nothing to be trifled with!  You can do a google search for electrocution deaths to find statistics if you really want to. There is also the possibility of fires. Please consider heeding the advice given here and do it right. The life/property you save, might be your own.


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## greybeard (Sep 19, 2018)

To be factual, very very few people in North America ever die from a fence charger incident if the fence is electrified by a charger. Some DO die because morons hooked a fence up to 110v house current and lots of people have gotten hurt when they touched and then were trying to get away from a properly charged fence. 

Still, touching one can be 'a religious experience."


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 21, 2018)

All very informative. 

So I should change out all the wire I bought to insulated and then drill new holes in the  aluminum siding to put them through?  But isn’t  aluminum metal?


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 21, 2018)

Healthy Skeptic said:


> All very informative.
> 
> So I should change out all the wire I bought to insulated and then drill new holes in the  aluminum siding to put them through?  But isn’t  aluminum metal?


That is why you use the insulated wire


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## Latestarter (Sep 21, 2018)

You use insulated wire from the charger, to the starting point of the hot wire run. It is (can be) also used from the charger to the first ground rod, though some folks don't bother with insulated wire for the ground, since it is supposed to be grounded anyway.  Drill a small hole, large enough to feed the wires through in the steel wall/side of the shed/bldg. You can use spray expanding foam or caulk etc. to seal around the wires once they are passed through. As long as the hot wire is shielded, you can run both through the same hole with no issues. Of course you CAN'T use the same hole with bare wires.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 21, 2018)

Ok hahaha! I must sound stupid. But I’ve never dealt with this stuff before. So any insulated wire? Just pick one and buy?


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## Latestarter (Sep 21, 2018)

from above:


greybeard said:


> From Kencove fencing, one of the largest and best known electric fence companies in the US:
> _Use at least one 12½ gauge double insulated cable as your leadout. Two or more joined in parallel are better, as this lowers the resistance of the wire._
> https://kencove.com/fence/100_Fence+Construction_resource.php
> 
> ...


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## Latestarter (Sep 21, 2018)

You should try to NOT mix wire types as each type wire has different resistance characteristics. So copper to aluminum to galvanized etc. is not a good plan. You should use the same kind of wire throughout to minimize resistance and power losses as well as potential heating when swapping from low resistance to high resistance wire.


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## Healthy Skeptic (Sep 21, 2018)

My hubby set all this up. So I understand this even less. I’ll tell him again. 

Thanks for your time.


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## Latestarter (Sep 21, 2018)

Hope you get it all figured out and done right/properly/safely.


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## greybeard (Sep 21, 2018)

The reason you cannot use household or automotive type insulated wire for leadout is because it's insulation is normally only rated for 600 Volts.  
Your American Farm Works 15 mile charger is probably capable of putting out around 5000Volts-7000Volts...maybe more.


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## greybeard (Sep 21, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> You use insulated wire from the charger, to the starting point of the hot wire run. It is (can be) also used from the charger to the first ground rod, though some folks don't bother with insulated wire for the ground, since it is supposed to be grounded anyway.



The reason the charger manufacturers and fence installation gurus recommend using that same kind of insulated wire from fence charger to ground rod, is that the circuit is never complete until each pulse reaches the negative terminal on the circuit board inside the charger.  The pulse, doesn't 'want' to go to earth ground, (it's already been there) it 'wants' to go to board ground.  The circuit is just using the earth as a conductor, from the point the animal touched the wire, back to the ground rod. Tho it seems to happen instantly, it really does not....the animal does not receive a shock until the pulse makes it back to the neg terminal on the charger's circuit board.
Maybe this drawing  make sense?








(Granted, in a fence charger that is producing AC current, (many ..if not most are nowadays) all the blue arrows will be changing directions at whatever interval the board's transformer and circuitry components dictate, but the same is true in either 'direction. The earth is still just a convenient "middle of the circuit" conductor and the shock doesn't take place until the pulses' circuit back to the board terminal is complete.)


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## Latestarter (Sep 22, 2018)

GB, gotta say I sure do like your graphics.   Specially the sheep saying "OWW #@!&%#" Been there, done that too!


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## Wehner Homestead (Sep 22, 2018)

X2!


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## Cindy in SD (Sep 27, 2018)

One more thing... I’d put the wire in flexible conduit to go through the aluminum siding. It will be sharp and could damage the insulation on the wires. At the least you should use one of those round conduit connectors used to attach conduit to utility boxes, etc.  That would cover the sharp hole in the siding. They’re easily available at stores like Home Depot, etc. Ask the electrical guys. They’re dead easy to use... just don’t tighten the connector too tightly on the wire or you’ll cut through the insulation.


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## Anthony Sr. (Sep 29, 2018)

A quick fix, get some insulated wire, exposed only at hook-ups, do not allow wires to be smashed or exposed by door. Oh and all metal touching fencing and wires are going to have electricity in them... (Keep wire's/steel off concrete)


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## greybeard (Sep 29, 2018)

Anthony Sr. said:


> A quick fix, get some insulated wire, exposed only at hook-ups, do not allow wires to be smashed or exposed by door. Oh and all metal touching fencing and wires are going to have electricity in them... (Keep wire's/steel off concrete)



As long as it is double insulated 20Kv rated for electric fence use and is NOT running thru that doorway..


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