# Proven vs Unproven:  Pros and Cons



## Ms. Research (Nov 2, 2011)

I've been reading lots about breeding rabbits because I plan to start up in the Spring of 2012 with purchasing my first breeding rabbits.   

This was posted as a suggestion on the Meat Rabbit Recommendation and thought it was sound advise.  



> I started with meat rabbits last year. My best advice is to avoid the temptation to get breeding age rabbits and buy your animals young. They will grow up with you and be used to you handling them. It will be less likely for them to bite, scratch or otherwise tear you up that way. I have the scars to prove that scared rabbits can tear you up in a heartbeat. Our own litters that we bred and raised are much more docile and easy going.  Just my two cents....good luck! Oh, and we have Californian rabbits and we love them.
> 
> Shannon


I've been back and forth thinking whether I should get Proven does, but Shannon makes sense when it comes to raising your breeders from kits.  I know it is frustrating sometimes with unproven does, (read a LOT here about that) but with rabbits it does take out the stress in life IF they know their handlers. 

So would like to hear the pros and cons of getting "Green" Rabbits.  

Would appreciate any input.  Thanks!


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## oneacrefarm (Nov 2, 2011)

Ms. Research,

The first rabbits we got were unproven, breeding age rabbits. All three of the does produced good litters with the first mating to the unproven buck. I don't worry too much about proven vs. unproven anymore. Most rabbits can and do reproduce easily, so temperament is more important to me initially. All the older ones have to be handled very carefully or I will wind up bleeding. The ones we raised are much easier and I don't really worry about them scratching me because they don't really. 

Thanks for post, it is always nice to hear that I have helped someone out in some small way!

Shannon


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## Ms. Research (Nov 2, 2011)

It's nice that you share what you know with others.  I've also looked at your set up as well (on another thread).  Thanks for sharing that as well.

I'll worry about temperament more than proven.  I'm not setting up a HUGE rabbitry.  I'm not RUSHING for kits, so raising kits to breeding age will suit me.  When the time comes, if doe or buck doesn't prove, then I guess I'll be learning how to make rabbit stew.   And start all over again.


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## Beekissed (Nov 2, 2011)

The good thing about rabbits is that you can breed yourself into a good set of does real quick and in a hurry.  Say you get a set of young ones, raise them for temperament, breed them and find that one out of three isn't a good mother/producer/hardy.  

You then eliminate her from your breeding and replace her with a doe kit from the other does.  Replace your buck or keep two bucks so you won't breed back to offspring if you are trying to avoid it.  

This can go on exponentially until you get the meaty/productive/good mothering/sweet temperament does you want and then just keep building that line as you go along.  It doesn't take long with rabbits to build a good warren.


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## Ms. Research (Nov 2, 2011)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> The good thing about rabbits is that you can breed yourself into a good set of does real quick and in a hurry.  Say you get a set of young ones, raise them for temperament, breed them and find that one out of three isn't a good mother/producer/hardy.
> 
> You then eliminate her from your breeding and replace her with a doe kit from the other does.  Replace your buck or keep two bucks so you won't breed back to offspring if you are trying to avoid it.
> 
> This can go on exponentially until you get the meaty/productive/good mothering/sweet temperament does you want and then just keep building that line as you go along.  It doesn't take long with rabbits to build a good warren.


Thanks so much.  Truly appreciate the input.


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## bunnylovincowgirl (Nov 3, 2011)

That's exciting to hear that you are considering getting breeding rabbits!  Do you have a breed picked out that you like?  

I think that one of the biggest advantages to buying a proven doe is that she has already had her first litter.  First-time does can be inexperienced and lose their entire litter.  I think it happens more often with small breeds than large ones, but there's a study on the Nature Trail website  where she looked at her data and found that she could expect babies to survive from a first-time mom only about 50% of the time.  So if a doe has already raised a litter, you don't have that concern.  That said, many first time mom's do a great job.

A doe that has had a litter in itself isn't necessarily of value, but if you can see some of her offspring and their quality, you can get an idea of what she produces.  Not all does reproduce their good qualities.

Best of luck to you!  Oh and here's the Nature Trail post: www.thenaturetrail.com/blog/2007/03/first-time-moms.html


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## Ms. Research (Nov 4, 2011)

bunnylovincowgirl said:
			
		

> That's exciting to hear that you are considering getting breeding rabbits!  Do you have a breed picked out that you like?
> 
> I think that one of the biggest advantages to buying a proven doe is that she has already had her first litter.  First-time does can be inexperienced and lose their entire litter.  I think it happens more often with small breeds than large ones, but there's a study on the Nature Trail website  where she looked at her data and found that she could expect babies to survive from a first-time mom only about 50% of the time.  So if a doe has already raised a litter, you don't have that concern.  That said, many first time mom's do a great job.
> 
> ...


Back and forth with either Mini Rex or Holland Lop.  Still have time to really think it through.  Appreciate the input and will definitely go to the site you posted.


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## oneacrefarm (Nov 4, 2011)

bunnylovincowgirl said:
			
		

> That's exciting to hear that you are considering getting breeding rabbits!  Do you have a breed picked out that you like?
> 
> I think that one of the biggest advantages to buying a proven doe is that she has already had her first litter.  First-time does can be inexperienced and lose their entire litter.  I think it happens more often with small breeds than large ones, but there's a study on the Nature Trail website  where she looked at her data and found that she could expect babies to survive from a first-time mom only about 50% of the time.  So if a doe has already raised a litter, you don't have that concern.  That said, many first time mom's do a great job.
> 
> ...


That website is a great source of information! I scoured it when I first started getting interested in rabbits. We were blessed, in that our first three moms did great and took care/fed the babies with no issues.  Unfortunately, I had to put them all down due to Pasteurella.  So, now I am building my herd again. Thankfully, I have a litter from the buck with a new doe that stayed healthy and they are very sweet natured. That doe, Roxie, did great with her first litter.  I also have one proven doe and buck from another breeder and several first timers. They are all due at varying dates in November. We bred all of them since we have not had a litter since July. So, this will be a great experiment in proven vs. unproven...I have three first timers that I don't hold out too much hope for....I call them "The Three Furies", they are very squirrelly does. I will be surprised if they do well with their first litters...

Shannon


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## DKRabbitry (Nov 4, 2011)

Another thing to watch out for is why proven animals are being sold.  Are they still producing good or is there anything "wrong" with them as to why they are being sold?  Even with proven animals, you are still taking a chance.  I got a beautiful satin doe that had produced a couple good litters with show worthy animals, just to get her to my place and have her kill every litter she had.  I tried her twice, gave her to a friend, she continued to kill all her babies.  My friend got 1 kit raised out of her that she managed to foster with another doe.  He is a show-stopper for sure.  Just beautiful, but what a headache to get him.  She has since been culled.

When I look for breeding stock, I like to get younger rabbits (6 months and under) that come from large litters and have good mothers.  That way they can settle in here for a while before being bred, and hopefully they have gained some mothering instincts from their dams in terms of the does.  If they lose the first litter, it isn't so much a big deal to me because we are not high producers.  We will just breed her back and wait another month.


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## oneacrefarm (Nov 4, 2011)

DKRabbitry said:
			
		

> Another thing to watch out for is why proven animals are being sold.  Are they still producing good or is there anything "wrong" with them as to why they are being sold?  Even with proven animals, you are still taking a chance.  I got a beautiful satin doe that had produced a couple good litters with show worthy animals, just to get her to my place and have her kill every litter she had.  I tried her twice, gave her to a friend, she continued to kill all her babies.  My friend got 1 kit raised out of her that she managed to foster with another doe.  He is a show-stopper for sure.  Just beautiful, but what a headache to get him.  She has since been culled.
> 
> When I look for breeding stock, I like to get younger rabbits (6 months and under) that come from large litters and have good mothers.  That way they can settle in here for a while before being bred, and hopefully they have gained some mothering instincts from their dams in terms of the does.  If they lose the first litter, it isn't so much a big deal to me because we are not high producers.  We will just breed her back and wait another month.


I totally agree with you on this....you will hear of folks ending up with someone's worn out 4yo doe that was advertised as "Proven" because they were too new to know any better. I would rather take a chance with a good tempered youngster that comes from good stock myself.

Shannon


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## Legacy (Nov 5, 2011)

The best advice I have heard regarding buying your brood stock is to get 1 proven doe that is already bred and 1 or 2 jr does and a junior buck that is unrelated. That gives you the best starting of having babies soon, and raising your stock up for temperament.


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## Roll farms (Nov 5, 2011)

Our "proven" Holland Lop doe has killed 3 litters and had 3 failed breedings.

:/

4 other does here doing fine, so I can't blame feed / conditions.


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## bunnylovincowgirl (Nov 5, 2011)

If you buy a proven doe, it's important to talk to the breeder about their definition of proven.  To me, proven means she raised a litter and was a good mom.   But I know people that say a doe is proven if she's ever kindled, whether or not she raised the litter.  Also, I know someone who won't call a doe proven unless she's raised a litter AND the babies were of good quality.  So it's really important to know what the breeder means.


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## Ms. Research (Nov 6, 2011)

Thanks Everyone!  I'm truly glad I posted this thread.  Learned A LOT about what to look for proven or unproven.  Truly appreciate the help from all to make the best choice for my start in breeding rabbits.


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## SlowMoneyFarm (Nov 6, 2011)

I've bought youngsters and adults and IMO it doesn't really matter. Good animals are good animals. They're all individuals and what works in one person's situation may not work in another. I've heard many stories of adults that worked great, were sold and were horrid. I also sold a nice but extremely temperamental doe to a friend on a 'one shot' deal - she had one chance to produce babies for him before the stew pot. To say she was nasty - I still have scars when she latched onto my arm at a show. He had her for several years - great mom, his kids crawled in the cage with her! So I've seen it go both ways. 

Changes, dogs, coons, shadows, lighting, handling, feed - all these things and more can throw a rabbit off. Some adapt some don't. There are many reasons why a rabbit is different in one home than another. A home that handles rabbits roughly may have youngsters that are spazzes to handle too. I picked up a pair of chinchilla satin adults at convention - faster to breed and get litters from. Reasons for getting youngsters are many. 

I have a doe here I've had since a jr. She's never raised a live litter - horrid mom. My giant chins are normally very good moms but don't foster well. I'm hoping the chin satin will foster kits from the horrid mom. I also bought two young Cals - difference in color is clear. Have a normally good mom that had a FIT when a handful of fur from another doe was put in her nest box. Every kit in the litter had damaged ears or, in the case of the one that doesn't, a nipped toe. Every one ruined for show. I have four does that will still be good for breeding, and the mama doe has another litter in the box that she's doing fine with. I have another doe who had every excuse to destroy her litter but raised every one. She had a litter that fell out of the cage and got beyond the fence into the back yard somehow, stayed together. I scooped up babies, leaves, mama and put them into a strange cage with a drop down nest box. A few days later the Alabama tornadoes hit all around us. All five of those offspring made the trip to convention. one was 2nd in youth; the doe was top 10 in open, and her brother was top 10 in open - so 3 top 10 placings against established breeders from 5 kits - yea she'll stay not only from quality but from maternal standpoints. 

Bottom line - rabbits notice things we don't and may react to things we don't. They can't tell us if a dog visits at night or if coons or squirrels are getting in the barn. And sometimes they just like some places better than others. My horrid mom might be awesome for one of you - or might continue to kill litters. Rabbits do adjust to good handling and I feel like, young or older, they will usually respond to consistent handling. Not always, but I've found it to be true more often than not.


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## DKRabbitry (Nov 6, 2011)

> Bottom line - rabbits notice things we don't and may react to things we don't. They can't tell us if a dog visits at night or if coons or squirrels are getting in the barn. And sometimes they just like some places better than others. My horrid mom might be awesome for one of you - or might continue to kill litters.


Too true.  I think that is what happened with the adult satin doe I got.  She was kind of a stressy, nervous type rabbit to begin with so she may have been a perfect mother the place she was raised and comfortable, then we scooped her up and transported her to a new location and expected her to do just as good and she didn't handle it well at all.  Another example is of a young rabbit I just sold.  She was 4 months old, Giant Chinchilla.  Out of really nice laid back parents, her litter sister that we retained is very nice and easy to handle.  I didn't handle any of that litter much as babies because I wasn't planning on keeping any and I do not like to get attached to rabbits that we end up butchered, but I did do routine checks and she had never shown agression.  Was always decent attitude-wise when I pulled her out to look her over.  Well, she got to her new home and decided she was NOT a nice rabbit.  She would growl and charge at people.  I don't have a clue what exactly happened to her, but something must have.  Or else she just grew into some agression.  I haven't a clue.  But anyways, point is, there are risks and unknown variables around every corner.  What works for me and my bunnies, may or may not work for you, and vise versa.


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