# Gracie Again, newest challenge



## bethh (Aug 17, 2018)

Hey All,

I got a call from my husband this morning.  Our front door ring doorbell went off and guess who was wandering the front yard but Gracie.  I was in a panic because I wasn't home.  I was on the way back from dropping our grandson off at daycare.  I was in a panic but all I could do was pray that she was okay and wouldn't go in the road which is very busy.  I was also worried about the rest of the dogs, house dogs that were out for some exercise and potty time.  I got home and thank God she was in the yard on the side in the pumpkins.  I went over calling her name.  When she heard it, she was happy as a lark and came running to me.  I brought her in and investigated all the gates.  Nothing was open.  I can only assume that she jumped the fence.  

Help, what is the best suggestion for this?  An invisible fence, electric fence (not too excited about that option because of the grandkids), ???  Please let me know y'all's ideas.  We almost have the creek problem fixed but she can't be loose on the chicken side yet alone because sometimes she wants to play with them and she will chase them, not very often but I wouldn't trust that for an extended period of time unsupervised.  

I saw where someone recommended a book Livestock Protection Dogs: Selection, Care, and Training.  Is it worth the money?  Around $35 on amazon.  I'll pay it in a heartbeat if its good.  Can't wait to hear your suggestions!!


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 17, 2018)

@bethh That very dated book won't solve your problems. It's not a _bad _book _per se_, I own it, in fact it stands up better than the two recently
published LGD books that came out last year that are heavy on breed descriptions and history (not what you need.)
Your issue is fencing, and why the dog is escaping. It's not breed selection, breed history, etc. and that is what most other LGD books cover.
My book won't be out till October, and I go into escape issues, fencing, etc in great detail in entire chapters.
But that's then, this is now. You don't need to read books right now, you need to make choices. Wise ones.

I said it before (and apparently scared off the poster, too, lol): stop negative forecasting about grandkids and hot fence.
They will learn - fast. You need to fence your place well enough to keep an LGD inside, or accept the inevitable (roaming dog, lost dog, dead dog.)
Premier 1 Supplies has a stellar variety of fence options, in all price ranges. Go to their website.
Invisible fences won't work with LGDs. And they let predators in.

Time to pay the piper, and get your fencing fixed - serious fencing, not "maybe/kinda" stuff. OK? Do it. No procrastinating, Grasshopper.....


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## Wehner Homestead (Aug 17, 2018)

As someone with young kids, I’d lean toward the electric fencing, particularly around the top since you think she jumped. The kids will learn quickly to give the hot wire an appropriate amount of space. My kids actually learned by seeing different farm animals get “bit.”


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 17, 2018)

Children only touch a hot stove once.  All of us kids learned real quick to avoid touching any wire hanging on insulators.  Much like the livestock we got bit and left it alone!  Yes, really little kids, like toddler is at risk, but it is unlikely they would be unsupervised near a fence.  

Unless we have severe drought conditions single wire hot electric fencing works here in East TN.  Where it is chronically dry you have to use a setup with both hot and ground wire animal touches at same time. If she is jumping and not in contact with ground she won't get bit unless she hits ground and hot wire.

Best way I found to break a dog to fence is RUB bacon grease on foil and hang on fence.  Dog sniffs and gets popped.  Especially  on heavy haired breeds like GP you want them to learn about fence with nose.


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## Baymule (Aug 17, 2018)

An electric fence is not the bad boogey monster that you are imagining it to be. It pulses, so when touched, it pulses off, leaving dog, child or whatever touched the reflex action to jump away. Your kids won't be electrocuted, nor will anything else. I have heard of more than one man telling how his father told him to go pee on that fence. Mean? yep. I am a jokester, but would never do that. Explain to the kids what it is, what happens if they touch it and hopefully they will obey, if not, then it is a fine time to admonish them and tell them that they should listen to you. 

We have a hot wire around our back yard. When I need to put our two GP's up, it is the only fence that will hold them. Gracie needs to learn to stay put and trust me on this one, a hot wire will teach her that. Our male GP, Trip jumped outside the fence one time. I took him around the outer fence for weeks, reading him the riot act and he has never jumped out, off the property again. That does not stop him from jumping in and out of pastures, I don't even fuss about that. But when we have times that I need to know that they will stay put, into the back yard they go. 

We have 3 grand daughters, age almost 2 years, 3 and 11 years old. None have ever grabbed the hot wire. If they do, I will comfort them, but will most likely laugh at them and tell them not to do that anymore (as if they would have to be told not to touch it again). Mean 'ol Mamaw…..

I am glad that Gracie was ok, unhurt and that she ran to you. She is just doing what those dogs do. Your job is to keep her and the other animals on your farm safe. If it means a hot wire, then it means a hot wire. If you are afraid for the grand kids, when they are outside playing, turn it off until they realize that they are not to touch it. My dogs won't approach the fence, even when it is off.


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## Latestarter (Aug 17, 2018)

Many will tell you that their animals can "tell" when the fence isn't energized. I tend to believe that since animals do have abilities that we lost or never had. Also, it's a good point that if the animal isn't touching the physical ground when in contact with the hot wire, it isn't going to BE hot... They need to have that ground connection to get zapped. So if Gracie is actually clearing/jumping the fence, a hot wire won't matter. You'll need to ensure that the fence is high enough that she can't clear it, and that there are both hot and ground wires where she will be forced to contact both in an escape attempt. I've been zapped a couple of times in my life and have suffered no long term negative effects. I have learned that I don't need further reinforcement on the issue... Your grands will learn just like all before them. You gotta do what you gotta do to protect your animals. If you de-energize when the grands are there, I'm sure Gracie will be more interested in playing with them than escaping in any case. Just remember to re-energize before the grands leave.


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## Donna R. Raybon (Aug 17, 2018)

The pulsing of fence can be heard, animals have much keener hearing than us older humans.    Once animal figures out they can through electric fence impossible to break them from escaping.  Keep fence HOT !!!!  Yeah, you can get by for a few hours....my experience has been:
Dog, a week
Pig, a day or two
Cow, beef two weeks, Jersey a week
Goat, 4 or 5 days.

That is if all happy, well fed,etc. So not too devoted to wanting out.


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## mystang89 (Aug 18, 2018)

BrendaMNgri said:


> stop negative forecasting about grandkids and hot fence.
> They will learn - fast.



This. I have 8 children ranging from 6mo to 11 years. Almost all have touched or fence including myself and wife. We are all still here. Some have touched it more than once but not on purpose. He is still here, learned what he did wrong and still smiles about it. Life's about learning. Don't stop the children from learning nor put them in a bubble.  

I had the exact same problem as you did. I purchased and installed the electric fence and I now no longer have that problem.  Good luck!


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## BrendaMNgri (Aug 18, 2018)

I'm SO glad to see from the several posts above that I am not the only one who recognizes that hot fence will not kill a child or maim them for life - coddling and over-protecting them however, well, that's another story....


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## bethh (Feb 9, 2020)

I’m back again with Gracie getting out.  We installed hot wire fencing and it had been going well.  All of a sudden, she is determined to get out.  We went out today and purchased and installed 6foot no climb fence.  We only had time to install in the area where she had been escaping.  She was back over there for an hour maybe when again she was out.  We will continue to try and figure this out.  I’m so worried she is going to get hit.  She is so exhausted from all the running so here she is...


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## thistlebloom (Feb 9, 2020)

Is she coming into heat?


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## bethh (Feb 9, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> Is she coming into heat?


No, she was spayed.


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## Baymule (Feb 9, 2020)

I am sorry that Gracie is jumping out and giving you gray hairs. I hope you can get her contained and KEEP her there.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 9, 2020)

I've gone through this with a couple of my dogs.  Who knows if what worked for me will work for you - but this is what I did.  I electrified the top of the fence - but my fence is only 4 foot and even with hot wire on top of that my dogs can clear nearly six foot.  So, I needed to convince them that the fence could bite them if they just got too close to it.  

I took a lightweight metal dog tie-out chain and would drape the end of it over the hot wire and stretch out the remaining chain in a figure S on the ground near the fence.  Then I put the dog on a lead and we walked near the fence and after a couple of passes they would inevitably step on the chain.  That chain was HOT even laying on the ground.  I went to several spots around the fence line and did the same thing.  The point was to let the dog know that the fence could bite from a distance.  I was actually surprised that it worked as well as it did.  But, neither of my fence jumpers has escaped since their session.  It might help that the ground is damp around here and my charger is really strong.  But - it worked here!  

Oh, and to get the metal chain off of the hot wire without getting shocked I just used something that didn't conduct electricity to pull it off.  Like a rubber tie down thingy - or a short section of pvc pipe.

I hated the idea of it because it seemed a bit cruel - but crueler would be getting on the road and being hit or being shot by someone.


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## bethh (Feb 9, 2020)

Me too.  She is currently stretched out on the floor by my feet.  She looks good as a rug.   I‘m just kidding.  


Baymule said:


> I am sorry that Gracie is jumping out and giving you gray hairs. I hope you can get her contained and KEEP her there.


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## Beekissed (Feb 9, 2020)

bethh said:


> I’m back again with Gracie getting out.  We installed hot wire fencing and it had been going well.  All of a sudden, she is determined to get out.  We went out today and purchased and installed 6foot no climb fence.  We only had time to install in the area where she had been escaping.  She was back over there for an hour maybe when again she was out.  We will continue to try and figure this out.  I’m so worried she is going to get hit.  She is so exhausted from all the running so here she is...



Some folks will put a drag on a dog that is determined to escape fences.   It's usually a short, thick chain attached to a short piece of log or a tire or something similar.  Kind of slows them down when going through electric fencing enough that they get shocked good by it.  

Another option many claim is a working solution is the Sport Dog electric containment system, which many don't bother to bury, but will attach it to existing fencing like offsetting a hotwire on standard fencing.   https://www.sportdog.com/in-ground-fencing


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## bethh (Feb 10, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Some folks will put a drag on a dog that is determined to escape fences.   It's usually a short, thick chain attached to a short piece of log or a tire or something similar.  Kind of slows them down when going through electric fencing enough that they get shocked good by it.
> 
> Another option many claim is a working solution is the Sport Dog electric containment system, which many don't bother to bury, but will attach it to existing fencing like offsetting a hotwire on standard fencing.   https://www.sportdog.com/in-ground-fencing


Can anyone chime in as to whether they have tried either of these options?   Did they work? We just want her safe.   We can’t figure out what has changed that she is so determined to get out.   I must say she was quite comfortable laying in the house last night.


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## Baymule (Feb 10, 2020)

My DD and family have one of those bury the wire containment things that they just laid it on top of the ground for their dog. They turned it up all the way and that dog doesn't even get near it. 

If you are putting up a 6' fence, with a hot wire at the top, that should keep her in. What about those fence toppers, don't know what they are called, that go on top of chain link fences, that angle in or out as a deterrent to fence climbers.


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## Beekissed (Feb 10, 2020)

bethh said:


> Can anyone chime in as to whether they have tried either of these options?   Did they work? We just want her safe.   We can’t figure out what has changed that she is so determined to get out.   I must say she was quite comfortable laying in the house last night.
> [/QUOTE



I don't know about the Sport Dog fencing but I've used Petsafe wireless containment for 14 yrs now on LGD and farm mutts alike with very good results.   If she doesn't have much space to actually guard~say a goat yard or coop area~it's a really cool option.    Just plug in at the center of the area you want her to be, do some training on the boundary and you have good containment at minimal expense and effort.


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## frustratedearthmother (Feb 10, 2020)

I would worry that a dog attached to a drag would manage to hang themself trying to go over a fence.
The Sport dog containment system may work but since you already have hot wire it would be a shame to have to spend more money on it when you already have the electric fence.


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## thistlebloom (Feb 10, 2020)

We had a neutered heeler that wouldn't stay home. He had a one acre chainlink fenced yard to be in and lots of attention, but couldn't resist visiting around the neighborhood and bringing home bowls of cat food. He was in the back of my truck when I was getting gas one time and a lady asked if that was my dog. I wasn't sure I wanted to admit it, but he _was_ in the back of my truck.
She went on to tell me how he would sit on her back porch and she would give him her refrigerator leftovers. She thought he was so cute, and I thought, well, no wonder the chowderhead doesn't stay home.
Anyway we finally curbed his wandering by attaching a 5 gallon bucket on a short rope to his collar. He couldn't go under, and he couldn't (or wouldn't ) climb over.


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## bethh (Feb 10, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> We had a neutered heeler that wouldn't stay home. He had a one acre chainlink fenced yard to be in and lots of attention, but couldn't resist visiting around the neighborhood and bringing home bowls of cat food. He was in the back of my truck when I was getting gas one time and a lady asked if that was my dog. I wasn't sure I wanted to admit it, but he _was_ in the back of my truck.
> She went on to tell me how he would sit on her back porch and she would give him her refrigerator leftovers. She thought he was so cute, and I thought, well, no wonder the chowderhead doesn't stay home.
> Anyway we finally curbed his wandering by attaching a 5 gallon bucket on a short rope to his collar. He couldn't go under, and he couldn't (or wouldn't ) climb over.


My DH loved the idea of attaching something to her collar like an engine block.  Yep last night, she got out and a kind stranger rang our bell to see if the dog sprawled out in the front yard belonged to us.  My first thought is oh no, what has she done.  But he just wanted to make sure she didn’t go in the road.   I’m afraid it is going to be trial and error to figure out where all her escape routes are.


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## Baymule (Feb 10, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> We had a neutered heeler that wouldn't stay home. He had a one acre chainlink fenced yard to be in and lots of attention, but couldn't resist visiting around the neighborhood and bringing home bowls of cat food. He was in the back of my truck when I was getting gas one time and a lady asked if that was my dog. I wasn't sure I wanted to admit it, but he _was_ in the back of my truck.
> She went on to tell me how he would sit on her back porch and she would give him her refrigerator leftovers. She thought he was so cute, and I thought, well, no wonder the chowderhead doesn't stay home.
> Anyway we finally curbed his wandering by attaching a 5 gallon bucket on a short rope to his collar. He couldn't go under, and he couldn't (or wouldn't ) climb over.


So did you call him bucket head after that?


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## thistlebloom (Feb 10, 2020)

Baymule said:


> So did you call him bucket head after that?



Since it was a pickle bucket we called him Picklehead.   😄 JK


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## bethh (Feb 10, 2020)

Baymule said:


> So did you call him bucket head after that?


I thought About connecting Gracie and Fitz with a short chain, a rope would be an appetizer.   Fitz may feel like he is being punished.


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## Beekissed (Feb 10, 2020)

Thistle, I love that bucket idea!  Greg Judy attaches a piece of construction tire side wall on his runner pups' collars by a short chain.   Keeps them from going through the electric fence wires.  Says it doesn't take long to train them to stay IN.


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## bethh (Feb 10, 2020)

I attached a gallon stainless steel bucket to Gracie’s collar with a carabiner.   She is in shock.


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## bethh (Feb 10, 2020)

Well, i thought I was pretty smug.  Shouldn’t have been.  Somehow she got the bucket off, collar was in perfect shape bucket as well.  She got out again.  I finally got her back in the pouring rain.  It seems like she has made friends with a dog up the hill.  I looked like a criminal in the pouring rain walking between 2 people’s houses with my hood on and my flashlight.   When I get to her, she looks at me like I treat her terribly.   Up until this point, I hadn’t even yelled at her.  I’m at a loss as what to do.   I have to wait until Herb gets back in town to get the rest of the fence up.


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## Beekissed (Feb 10, 2020)

Tethering works.   Gives her a way of being in the guard area but not being able to access a fence or go anywhere.   You need electric containment that is juiced up....wayyyyyy up.


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## thistlebloom (Feb 10, 2020)

That dog! I know how frustrating it is to try to outwit a persistent escapee. Maybe it was a fluke that the carabiner unsnapped. Hope your new fence is the cure.
When we attached the bucket to Boomer it was long enough to follow just behind him.


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## thistlebloom (Feb 10, 2020)

I was going to say what Bee just did. We keep our Bernese MD on a 100' cable run that's connected up high between two pines.
She will stay home loose as long as I'm outside, but can't be trusted if I go in. She keeps her visits to the property's adjacent to ours, but I don't want her going off our property period.


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## bethh (Feb 10, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Tethering works.   Gives her a way of being in the guard area but not being able to access a fence or go anywhere.   You need electric containment that is juiced up....wayyyyyy up.


We have hot cable.  Tonight I found out that it isn’t working.  I don’t know what the deal is.


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## Beekissed (Feb 10, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> I was going to say what Bee just did. We keep our Bernese MD on a 100' cable run that's connected up high between two pines.
> She will stay home loose as long as I'm outside, but can't be trusted if I go in. She keeps her visits to the property's adjacent to ours, but I don't want her going off our property period.



I've got Blue on the same thing right now....big long run line.   Until I get a chance to hotwire my coop pop door so he can't squeeze in there and eat my eggs, he's on the run line.   When he's not on the run line he's on the wireless containment system....he's still learning that and has taken the longest of all my dogs to learn the boundary.   Can occasionally hear the screams in the middle of the night and just have to shake my head.


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## Baymule (Feb 11, 2020)

Paris asks to go up front to Sentry’s pasture daily. Yesterday I wasn’t outside when she deemed it time to go home to her beloved back yard, so she dug out. I got “that feeling” and went outside to find her trying to dig under the fence to get in the backyard. At least she wasn’t running down the road. 

Don’t these dogs drive us nuts? LOL


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## bethh (Feb 11, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Paris asks to go up front to Sentry’s pasture daily. Yesterday I wasn’t outside when she deemed it time to go home to her beloved back yard, so she dug out. I got “that feeling” and went outside to find her trying to dig under the fence to get in the backyard. At least she wasn’t running down the road.
> 
> Don’t these dogs drive us nuts? LOL


😫🤬🥰


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