# Ivermectin Pour-on For Cattle? **Added Pics.**



## Chicos Mama (Jul 21, 2011)

Please help! I recently aquired an Older goat, apporx. 13 yrs. old, severly under weight. Hoof Rot came along as well. I felt sorry for this old gal and took her in to give her a better life.  All has been well so far and she is slowly...very slowly gaining weight. BUT as of 5 days ago she began loosing her hair. I watch her rub herself raw on anything she can and as of today...she about 75% Bald! No Mites anywhere to be found, No creppy crawly anythings. 
Im assuming Mange...   so I went to our local feed store for Ivermectin and all they had was the pour-on for cattle. Can this be given orally and if so, how much? Im not trying to posion this old lady but Im afraid to actually pour it on her sensitive skin in fear of burning her.
Any help please! 
Im sitting here waiting....


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 21, 2011)

First off, mange IS mites...demodectic or sarcoptic mange - both are from mites.

Second, definitely don't use the pour on AS a pour on.  Goats metabolize differently than cattle and it can build up in their system and become toxic.

I won't give any pour on orally (And...I don't want to have a peeing contest about this, just my opionion - what others choose to treat their goats with is their business) 
but the pour on dewormers usually contain a lot of bad stuff as a 'carrier' - to get it into the goat's system.  Some contain Naptha (paint thinner...ewww) and some contain isopropanol.   I'd rather not give those things to my goats, but to each their own.

Me, I'd take that back and find some ivo injectable...either give it orally or inject it (I've done both).  In the meantime, you can use livestock dust or 7 dust on her, and I really liked the "Witch's Brew" recipe KSalvagno posted about when two of mine were having issues.

http://www.alpacas.com/AlpacaLibrary/AlpacaSkinProblems.aspx

The recipe is at the bottom of the page.


----------



## Goatmasta (Jul 21, 2011)

If she were here I would drench the pour on ivermec @ 1cc/22lbs 10-12 days apart for a total of 3 treatments.  regardless of what you do, don't under dose!


----------



## Chicos Mama (Jul 21, 2011)

First of all, Thank you for your wise wisdom Roll Farms as always you have helped me MANY times. BUT, All of the feedstores out here in the middle of nowhere are sold out of the Iver. Injectable and wont be getting in any new shippments untill August. So when in a pinch...This is all I have to choose from. I only have 7-Dust Granuals on hand (yup, I threw some on  her...much to her discust )

Even the Witches Brew calls for Iver. So Im going to try the pour on...please wish me luck!

Ok...Now, please dont think me ignorant...but all of my suringes are in ML.`s   

 Can anyone break that down for me in CC.`s (or Tablespoons or whatever measurment I can use?)


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 21, 2011)

ML = CC.

Use what you gotta.  

FYI - Online vendors (Jeffers.com, Premier, etc.) sell generic ivermectin (or ivomec name brand) and ship pretty quickly.


----------



## ksalvagno (Jul 22, 2011)

You can also buy Camelid Skin Mix (aka Witches Brew) from Light Livestock Supply.  It is pricey but there is an added ingredient and it is all ready to go. You can also buy NuStock from Light Livestock Supply and that also does wonders for skin treatment.

http://www.lightlivestockequipment.com/WitchesBrew.asp


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 22, 2011)

Order some injectable ivermectin from Jeffers or Valley Vet or somewhere, and inject it..  I've injected at the label dose for cattle (1ml/110lbs) to treat mites and had success -- no need to "superdose" (I think I just made that word up  ) when you're injecting for mites..  

Mites don't respond well to *oral* treatment with ivermectin because A) mites don't live in the GI tract, so their eradication requires them to ingest med-tainted blood, and B) orally administered ivermectin has a very poor "pharmacokinetic profile," which is just a fancified way of saying they poop most of it out and very little of it gets into the animal's bloodstream..

ETA:  Do *not* use the pour-on as a pour on.  If you want to dose it orally, well...some people do that, but I don't.  _But some people do._  And if you did, it would probably at least help with any *internal* stomach/gut worms she may have...and she *does* have them, btw...even if it's not at all effective against the possible mites.  

Also...sometimes mineral deficiencies cause them to go bald.  Does she have access to a good quality loose mineral?  And by good quality, something that says "copper sulfate" or "cupric sulfate" or "copper proteinate" or something like that instead of "copper oxide" or "cupric oxide" on the bag tag..  If you see any references to copper/cupric oxide, it's garbage..  Trash.  Worthless.  Dump it out and get something better.


----------



## Chicos Mama (Jul 22, 2011)

Thank you to everyone! 
I ordered some Ivermectin today from Jeffers and also so Pro-biotics for goats...figured it couldnt hurt 

Also Im going to check feed tags later todayfor copper content.  But her diet is now consisting of: 1 Small scoop of Purina Goat Chow, 1 small scoop of BOS, 1 very small scoop of Calf Manna feed additive per day, plus 5 CC`s of Red blood cell everyday for 7 days (were done with that now, she`s all pink again),  And free feeding of Alfalfa Hay & Timothy Hay. She also has access to Loose minerals and Mineral block both. I know this sounds like alot of grain, but actually it measures less than a cup and a half in total.

This ol`gal was severly malnourised and at least *50 lbs. UNDERWEIGHT*!  B.T.W. She is a Nubian Queen! And You could litereally see her entire skeleton poking out of her coat at every angle when I got her.  
She was partially lame and crawled on her front knees because her hoofs were so over-grown that they were growing UP into her soles. She is finally able to walk (hobble) for the first time in months!   Foot-Rot also came along with this bag of tricks!

*AND, AND, AND*... She Miscarried 3 days after I had her!!! A**Munch Bred her!  You couldnt even see that she was carrying.

And NOW THE MANGE!!! Poor lady! (She`s makin` me tired!)

She has one horn, no hair and is a now walking skin carcass.
This is the ugliest goat I have ever seen But, So much T.L.C. was needed for her that my heart broke...I actually had to beg her owner to give her to me...he said she was his _" favorite"..._REALLY? 

After much proding...her "owner" gave her to me....Hmmpf! THANKS! 

And now her journey of recovery begins! She has already put on about 7-10 lbs. in a little over 2 weeks with me. 
As always I would love any advice in helping me with her recovery!  Crazy old goat people that you are...I love your wisdom! 
And I mean that in the most very respectful way!
Thanks again for all your help over the years!


----------



## Pearce Pastures (Jul 22, 2011)

Gosh you are a good person to take that all on!  I hope things get better-sounds like they already are


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Jul 22, 2011)

Chicos Mama: that sounded like a lot of grain to me, until you said it totaled 1 1/2 cups.  Maybe I missed it, but are you referring to a full-sized nubian?  

I can't help but wonder if perhaps she wouldn't benifit from a little more grain. We are feeding our 8 year old full-sized nubian does about 6 cups of grain a day at times.  


I see she is 13 years old, and I am sure you do not need to upset her stomach, but I would consider very slowly going up on that amount.  Maybe keeping some baking soda out for her, if you try to go up on her feed.  I guess one could agrue with the hoof problems adding too much grain to her diet isn't going to help at all.    Just kind of thinking out load I guess.  

Good luck with her.  She is very lucky to live out her life with such good care.  I know she sure had to of appreciated the hoof trimming.


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 22, 2011)

Is she getting any alfalfa hay?  I'd up the quality of her hay and see if that helps her condition.   Good luck and good on ya for taking her on.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 23, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Is she getting any alfalfa hay?  I'd up the quality of her hay and see if that helps her condition.   Good luck and good on ya for taking her on.


x2

We a firm believers in the power of alfalfa.


----------



## Chicos Mama (Jul 23, 2011)

Sorry, maybe I wasnt very clear on what I wrote...there was just so much to remember!   All three of my goats Free-Feed on BOTH...Alfalfa (2nd cut only) AND excellent quality Timothy Hay.  In seperate Feeders so they can have their choice at any given time. And they all mix it up and eat both.

The grain ration I mentioned in the earlier post was also *2x* a day (morning & evening feedings)  I will up her amout a little at a time so she wont get scours. Real food was such a shock to her system in the first 4 days...her hinney was running like a leaky hose! A lot of Pepto & Baking soda cleared it right up, and her poops are now a wonderful pellet to see.

I also ordered some High Quality Loose mineral and Iodine supplement along with the Pro-Bios from Hoegger a few days ago, and got them today.   Skinny girl *"Doe-rita"* LOVES the Probiotics! Sticky faced girl this morning! My other 2 spoiled Fatties...could care less 

Im going to run out here real fast and take a few pictures of her now (pitiful as she is)...and repost as the weeks go by to share her progress!

Thanks again for ALLLL the help!


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Jul 23, 2011)

They are very lucky goats to have such good care.


----------



## Chicos Mama (Jul 23, 2011)

*Well here she is Goatie People...The UGLIEST Goat in the world...Miss DOE-RITA*

*Her Head is actually WIDER than her body...So Sad!*






*Her Hips!*





*Her Rump*





*And here are her "Pen-Mates": Chico & Violet*

*CHICO*





*VIOLET*




All of these were taken today 7-23-11 We shall re-take in 1 month...Wish Her Luck that soon she will look as Fat and Happy as the Big Babies!!


----------



## Ms. Research (Jul 24, 2011)

Chicos Mama said:
			
		

> *Well here she is Goatie People...The UGLIEST Goat in the world...Miss DOE-RITA*
> 
> *Her Head is actually WIDER than her body...So Sad!*http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/2273_doe-rita711.jpg
> 
> ...


Sending some Good Karma from New Jersey to Miss DOE-RITA (Love the Name!).  Well she might be ugly, but with your tender loving care, she is definitely on the road to being happy!


----------



## Roll farms (Jul 24, 2011)

Bless her heart, the 'owner' shoulda been shot.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 24, 2011)

She will beautiful in time with the good care you're going to be giving her.


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Jul 24, 2011)

Best of luck with her.   We've all seen how quickly a neglected goat can turn around so I'm positive you will work wonders with her. Your other two are lovely. 


 I found adding in root veggies helped add calories and still gave them something to "digest" for a while.  Start adding them in slowly like the grain.  Beets, carrots, potatoes, turnips.  I dice them up a bit and mix them in with the feed.   You might also put a squirt or 3 of a goat power punch or calorie upper on her grain.    


 I would also worm her slowly.  I don't think she can afford to have a major deworming all at once. She might be a bleed out case so I would gently worm her over a couple weeks.


----------



## Goatherd (Jul 24, 2011)

She found her guardian angel.  Good luck with her.


----------



## elevan (Jul 24, 2011)

I've found that Calf Manna works well for putting on weight.


----------



## Chicos Mama (Jul 25, 2011)

*Thanks GOBS Guys!*

Doe-Rita is making BIG strides everyday!  She`s already acting as spoiled as the other two.  She was so weak and couldnt walk when I brought her home, that I would carry her feed buckets and water to her...Now that she is WALKING ...She is still expecting the same treatment! LOL! She slowly  just walks out of the barn, lays down in a nice comfy spot and moans at me as if to say" Sometime today Lady!...Im waaaaiting! " 
And of course, I do her bidding. (Happily so I might add) Today Im going to try giving her some potatoes as a treat! (Thanks elevan!)
P.S. I already give them calf-manna added to their grain which explains the 2 Fatties with her! 

I appreciate all the well wishes and help from everyone of you! I would certainly be lost without this forum.

I do have another question (or 2 or 3) if I may...

*#1* 
Is there any people or puppy shampoo that I can use on her for her itching and BAAAD Flaking skin? She looks almost reptilian! 
 (Head & Shoulders perhaps?) I am unable to go to town for about a week so I need to use something I have on hand.
I thought about some lotion even, but remember I live in Arizona and with Temps. above 110 Im afraid it would encourage sunburn on her bare skin.

*#2*
How soon will I see any effect from the Ivermectin on her Mange issue? And how will I tell if its working?
I gave it to her on the 20th and will re-dose on the 30th but whats left of her hair is still falling out

*#3  *
Should I give my other 2 goats a swig of Iver. just to make sure they dont get the Mange as well? Neither are showing any signs of it and she has been with me for almost 3 weeks now. They were wormed 3 months ago with Safeguard. And I also Dusted, bedding, goats, entire pen (Chickens included) with 7-dust.

*Picture this:* 1 plastic grocery bag...half full of 7-dust...*ADD* 1 really pissed off chicken ...place chicken in bag up to neck...close of bag with your hand around said chickens neck....*AND SHAKE*!  hahahaha! My version of *"SHAKE & BAKE CHICKEN!* 

I told ya`ll...This old gal is makin` me work for my money $$$


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 25, 2011)

> Doe-Rita is making BIG strides everyday!






> *#1*
> Is there any people or puppy shampoo that I can use on her for her itching and BAAAD Flaking skin? She looks almost reptilian!
> (Head & Shoulders perhaps?) I am unable to go to town for about a week so I need to use something I have on hand.
> I thought about some lotion even, but remember I live in Arizona and with Temps. above 110 Im afraid it would encourage sunburn on her bare skin.


I don't have any experience with skin like that on a goat's *back,* I have seen some pretty scaly, gnarly, nasty, mite-damaged skin on goats' legs before..  They're itchy and miserable when they're like that..  

What I did was pretty typical of the kind of heartless jerk I am:  I started out by making it *worse*..  I got a warm, soapy rag and wet the scabby nasty areas until they got kinda pliable -- and then I scrubbed them until they were pink and bleedy and raw and angry looking.  In the medical field, they call this particular form of torture "debriding"..  It's not fun work, and you'll feel really bad for doing it, but surprisingly, my experience has been that they're so incredibly itchy in those areas that it actually feels *good* to be scrubbed like that.  And when you're done, you'll realize that as hurty as it looks, it actually does look better than scaly, cracked skin..  

And then to keep it from just drying right back out and cracking and getting all nastified again, I put some udder balm on it.  Real udder balm -- not the stuff you buy at Cracker Barrel, but *real* udder balm -- is generally somewhat antiseptic, and it's made for skin that's kinda beyond just "dry" or "chapped"..  It's pretty perfect for situations like this.

Now, like I said...these were isolated-ish areas on goats' legs, so I'm not saying you should go out there and scrub your entire goat raw...  But I will say that if you're looking for something to help with something 'reptilian,' as you put it...udder balm might be worth looking into.  

Now, having said all that, I also believe that oil tends to work better from the inside out..  I don't know if you're already doing this, but a good way to get oil into a goat's diet is with black oil sunflower seeds..  They're very fatty, and they make for nice coats.  It won't be miraculous as this particular goat is probably going to be putting fat into reserve for a while, but it would still be worthwhile.



> *#2*
> How soon will I see any effect from the Ivermectin on her Mange issue? And how will I tell if its working?
> I gave it to her on the 20th and will re-dose on the 30th but whats left of her hair is still falling out


My guess is that it probably *needs* to fall out for a while yet.  Are you still seeing fluid around the bad spots??  Mite damage usually leaks...or oozes...or whatever you wanna call it.  You'll usually see crusty build-up of once-clear body fluid that leaked out of the damaged areas..  If the mites are done, it won't ooze much more after that.  

All in all, though, it may just be a waiting game.



> *#3  *
> Should I give my other 2 goats a swig of Iver. just to make sure they dont get the Mange as well? Neither are showing any signs of it and she has been with me for almost 3 weeks now. They were wormed 3 months ago with Safeguard. And I also Dusted, bedding, goats, entire pen (Chickens included) with 7-dust.


Mites tend to be an opportunistic thing.  If your others are healthy, they'll probably be fine.  Besides, if they don't have them now, ivermectin will do no good.  It's not really a preventative type of med since it hasn't got much of a lasting effect..  I'd probably just keep an eye on them.



> *Picture this:* 1 plastic grocery bag...half full of 7-dust...*ADD* 1 really pissed off chicken ...place chicken in bag up to neck...close of bag with your hand around said chickens neck....*AND SHAKE*!  hahahaha! My version of *"SHAKE & BAKE CHICKEN!*


HA!  I hadn't thought about anything like that, but that would probably be a really good way to dust a lousy baby goat, too!


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Jul 25, 2011)

As far as lotion etc. if her hair is still falling out, and it may for a while, why not just put a good slathering of aloe and sun screen on her?


----------



## arabianequine (Jul 26, 2011)

I would give her vit e. They make a tube of selenuim and vit e that jeffers sells. I know it has vit. e in it for sure. 

What you really need is to give her a shot of vit. b complex but good luck on that. I would maybe ask around and look at your local feeds stores and ask at your vets.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 26, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> I would give her vit e. They make a tube of selenuim and vit e that jeffers sells. I know it has vit. e in it for sure.


I wouldn't give Selenium/E gel for the vitamin E content alone..  Selenium can be toxic, and there are other ways to get E..

WHICH REMINDS ME...  ... there's an injectable Vitamin E-AD which contains (you guessed it) vitamins e, a, and d.  Went looking for an injectable E because I knew I'd seen *something* that had E in it, and ran across the E-AD again..  Seeing the 'A' jogged my memory on what vitamin A deficiencies can bring about.....one of which is "abnormal function of many epithelial cells, manifest by such diverse conditions as *dry, scaly skin, inadequate secretion from mucosal surfaces*, infertility, decreased synthesis of thyroid hormones and elevated cerebrospinal fluid pressure due to inadequate absorption in meninges."  (link)

And how exactly might an animal become vitamin A deficient?  From a lack of fresh green stuff and/or from poor quality hay, usually.  Now, if I'm not mistaken, your in Arizona...or some other desert-ish climate...right?  So I'm assuming that's where this goat is from, too..  And when I think desert, I don't think of lush, green pastures -- I think of brush, drylots, and hay.  And judging by the way this goat was obviously "kept" by her previous owner, it was probably really crappy hay at that..  Hay that *may* have had all its vitamin A destroyed from being old, or mishandled...if it even had enough A in the first place.

Question....can this goat see worth a damn at night?  I ask because night blindness is another symptom of vitamin A deficiency..  I'd consider trying to test that out somehow..  Like, see if you can sneak up on her in the dark or something, and judge her reaction..  (..but really..)

And just for the record, I've never ever used Vit E-AD injectable on an animal.  It's green here, so no reason to..  So I can't say "Works like a champ!" -- all I can do is speculate, but I really do think this is worth speculating on for a moment.  It could, afterall, make some sense..


----------



## arabianequine (Jul 26, 2011)

@cmjust0 yeah that is the only thing I keep seeing with vit. E in it. I would think she would probably need the selenium too though? Did the op say if they have gave bose yet?

You won't give the whole tube do you? I have never used it before.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 26, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> @cmjust0 yeah that is the only thing I keep seeing with vit. E in it. I would think she would probably need the selenium too though? Did the op say if they have gave bose yet?
> 
> You won't give the whole tube do you? I have never used it before.


I use injectable Selenium...never used a tube either, so I dunno.  All I know is that Selenium isn't to be taken lightly, and I've also heard that there's not even enough E in the Sel/E preparations to really help with the Selenium absorption -- let alone do any good beyond that.  I actually know of a few producers who supplement with human capsules of E when they give BoSe, and swear by it..  Vitamin E is supposed to be one of the few things that's just as good by mouth as by needle..

But who knows..  I haven't really researched it.. 

I mostly posted because alarm bells went off in my head when I saw the vitamin A and thought about it in regard to a scaly-skinned, desert-dwelling goat...everything just sorta clicked.


----------



## cmjust0 (Jul 26, 2011)

Ooh ooh!!  Could also be a zinc deficiency!!  Lack of zinc makes scaly skin, too!


Sometimes this stuff comes back to me in waves, sorry...


----------



## elevan (Jul 26, 2011)

I've used the vit E/ Selenium tubes from Jeffers...works crappy in a pinch...unless you have NO other options I wouldn't use it.


----------



## Chicos Mama (Jul 28, 2011)

*Time for an update:*

"Miss Doe-Rita" is such an amazingly resiliant Nanny!  And is progressing nicely!  As of today, No mater which angle I looked at her, I could not see one single rib bone!!!!  (now about those hip bones and spine...)

Inch by Inch, Calorie by Calorie...she`s gonna get there!

I did take into concideration the Zinc and Vit. A defecency therories but with all the supplements she is getting: 
Black oil sunflower seeds, Free fed Loose Mineral, Iodine supplement, Vit. A-D-E ( from molly`s) spinkled on her grain daily, Pro-biotics daily, Calf-Mana, Free fed 2nd cut Alfalpha ( not from Arizona, they truck it in from Colorado) Also a good Timothy Hay also from Colorado....and *LOTS OF KISSES* ....
 I think im just Im going to wait and see what time will tell as her hair grows back in.   Seems like an awful lot of Vitamins and Oil & Fat goodies in all of that stuff!  She should be big as a house in no time!

I did however take a "baby brush", you know, the really soft bristled ones? And dipped it in Pure Aloe Vera gel and went to scrubbin`! Small circular motions all over her and she was actually moaning with delight!  I decided to do this every other day as to not make her raw and see if this helps her skin. She doesnt seem to care if Im helping her or not...all she knows is that it sure feels gooooodd!! 

She never did get any ozzy sores or scabs on her, it was just really gross scaly and super flaky skin...like a very bad case of dandruff...Goat sized!

Now if I could just get "Violet" my other girl to quit bullying her, "Doe-Rita" is a very old yet "seasoned" old gal and something tells me as she gets stronger and healthier, shes going to put Violet in check!  We shall see!

Thanks again everyone for your ideas and help  more pictures as we go!


----------



## Mossy Stone Farm (Jul 28, 2011)

This is GREAT news.... I have been following this post...

Bless your heart for helping this grand ol gal live the rest of her life in confort and good health.....


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Jul 28, 2011)




----------



## Ms. Research (Jul 29, 2011)

So glad to hear Doe-Rita is coming around.   Us "ole gals" are tough and with the right backing, can do anything!   You show em, Doe-Rita.   And watch out Violet.  Something tells me once this Ole Gal is 100% with all this TLC, she'll let her know what an Ole "Seasoned" Gal can do.  

Can't wait to see the Pics!


----------

