# Need advice... 13 week old buckling not gaining weight :-(



## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

Reub had been gain weight steadily, then had a bout of scours, which have been corrected and he is pooping normally. He has been given wormers(even though there was no visible sign of worms). He has free choice (Manna Pro)loose minerals. He has been getting a mix of Dumor Goat Grower and regular pelleted Dumor goat feed.

Over the past week I have even gone to the extent of giving him a cup and a half of Critical Care (that I add a dose of Durvet High Calorie gloop to) every other day.

He gobbles up the Critical Care mix, and he eats about half to one cup of the Dumor mix per day along with free choice hay.

Our vet is over an hour away, and I don't want to cause shipping stress to whatever is causing him to not gain weight.

Any ideas on what it could be, or how we could get him back to good, instead of under, condition?


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## Queen Mum (Oct 18, 2011)

At this point, about 3-4 months, they plateau out and weight gain and growth significantly slows.  He's probably OK.  His growth has just slowed way down.  He's probably growing, just much more slowly.  I wouldn't panic unless his penmates are passing him up by leaps and bounds.  If he looks healthy, eating well and thriving in every other sense of the word, just keep an eye on him.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

That's the thing... he is stll structurally groming, but he isn't growing the padding to go with it. He is back some from looking very boney, but he is still under conditioned.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 18, 2011)

I didn't see anything in your post about Coccidiosis prevention... without strict coccidiosis prevention you're just not going to have growthy kids.  There is no reason his growth should plateau at 13 weeks.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> I didn't see anything in your post about Coccidiosis prevention... without strict coccidiosis prevention you're just not going to have growthy kids.  There is no reason his growth should plateau at 13 weeks.


We had been feeding(during his first month) Noble goat to him. After having another kid have similar scouring and running fecals only to have the vet find nothing, but prescribe meds for what the didn't find anyways, we have chosen to raise them as naturally as possible.. which includes free choice pine, hemlock, and spruce(when available). All fecals come back clean, and we do not want to encourage ineffective medicating by giving "just in case" medications. We have Ivermectin(2 kinds), and safeguard, and we have a bottle of SMZ-TMP. If any fecals come back with a worm or parasite load, then we will give the appropriate medication.
None of our other kids have gotten preventative medication and they are growing just fine. It is just this one buckling.

As I said previously, his growth has not plateau'd, he is still growing, but isn't bulking along with his growing. He is quite boney, not like a Saanen(walking skeleton), but he feels boney. you can feel all his ribs and the spine in his neck. If he were shaved you could see what I mean.
He is a mix breed(potentially Ober/Boer/Pygmy), his dam is shorter than an Ober, and a hair larger than a pure bred Nigerian. His father is even in size and structure with most pure bred Nigerians.
Reub is 13 weeks old and weighs just 13.4lbs which is only a 0.65lbs per week gain
By comparison, his cousin(Olivia) has had a steady 1.6 lb per week gain.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Oct 18, 2011)

Why should a Saanen be a "walking skeleton"?  Even an extremely dairy doe isn't going to look like a walking skeleton with proper management.  

A kid that is fed properly and on strict parasite management shouldn't be having growth issues.  You're asking for advice, but you're not willing to re-evaluate your management.  I won't be reading this thread again, hopefully someone can give you the advice you'd like to hear.


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## redtailgal (Oct 18, 2011)

I have a wether in a similar situation.  

He is growing taller, but not adding any padding at all.  He is well fed, and parasite free (clear fecals) and just can not put on any fat covering at all!

I have noticed that my boys seems to add and hold weight better if they are feed two smaller meals instead of once a day. Maybe you are already doing that, for all I remember it was you that suggested I try that.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 18, 2011)

If you are only talking a matter of 2 to 4 weeks since he had scours. He could just still be recovering, plus putting on frame, so his system hasn't caught up yet inorder to put more finish on. If you are talking about a 2 or 3 month time period then I would reavaluate parasites and feeding program.  Or consider damage to  his stomach from the scours that he had.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Why should a Saanen be a "walking skeleton"?  Even an extremely dairy doe isn't going to look like a walking skeleton with proper management.
> 
> A kid that is fed properly and on strict parasite management shouldn't be having growth issues.  You're asking for advice, but you're not willing to re-evaluate your management.  I won't be reading this thread again, hopefully someone can give you the advice you'd like to hear.


Though n.smithurmond won't be reading this thread again, I would like to address their reply.

Most saanen goats that I have seen, both shown on this forum and in person, are very boney, and look emaciated(I have been told by each owner/breeder, that they just _are_ that way), espescially when compared to a decent conditioned Nigerian Dwarf Oberhasli, Alpine, or La Mancha. I have no other way of describing them than "walking skeletons" due to their very boney appearance, espescially when talking to someone who doesn't know the breed's name but knows what they look like. I have never once seen a saanen goat that didn't look boney.

Growth is not the issue, gaining bulk along with his growth is the issue. He keeps growing structurally, just not "fattening" up. I wish instead of taking my comment on our management practices and turning it around into an attack and saying I wasn't listening, you had read my comment for what it was: stating our farm's lessons learned, what we do, and why. and what the real issue with our buckling is.  Just because someone chooses to go as natural as possible doesn't mean they are wrong. Just like choosing to eat overly processed foods or choosing to eat all natural & organic foods.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I have a wether in a similar situation.
> 
> He is growing taller, but not adding any padding at all.  He is well fed, and parasite free (clear fecals) and just can not put on any fat covering at all!
> 
> I have noticed that my boys seems to add and hold weight better if they are feed two smaller meals instead of once a day. Maybe you are already doing that, for all I remember it was you that suggested I try that.


Yup, that sounds exactly like Reuben!
I started doing 2 feedings instead of 1, no change, so now I give him about 2 cups of the feed mix in the morning and then let him eat what he wants all day, and measure at night to find out how much he ate.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> If you are only talking a matter of 2 to 4 weeks since he had scours. He could just still be recovering, plus putting on frame, so his system hasn't caught up yet inorder to put more finish on. If you are talking about a 2 or 3 month time period then I would reavaluate parasites and feeding program.  Or consider damage to  his stomach from the scours that he had.


2 - 4 weeks, thankfully. Hopefully it is just that his system is still playing catch-up.


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## 20kidsonhill (Oct 18, 2011)

we purchased a very malnourished doeling that was born in February, her mom had an injured teat and the owner didn't have the facility properly set up to creep feed and didn't try to bottle feed. she was right at 6 months old. We decided to take on the challenge based on her amazing pedigree. A diamond in the rough so to speak. We have had her For around 3 months now and the first 5 or 6 weeks I was doubting there would be any hope for her. Pot-bellied and furry and weighing in at around 45lbs while her herd mates that we purchased at the same time were toping 100lbs. First thing she started doing was putting on frame and lost the pot bellied look, got a little thinner looking, then her hair coat magically turned smooth and now she is putting on weight, she will probably never be the size and potential that she could have been, but our goal is to get enough frame on her and healthy enough to breed her by the time she is 18 months. 

She was so malnourished she had these odd little nodules sticking from her ribs on both sides. We couldn't see them unti she started getting a smoother hair coat. When we showed her to a vet. He felt they were from her malnourishment and she had developed calciium build ups on some of her ribs. They looked like like marbles under her skin, attached to the bone and very hard. She still has them, but since she started putting weight on you can't see them.

She has the funniest personality. And never a day she isn't hungry. She really liked our show whethers so we would let her out when we were working with them to give her some exercise, otherwise she was penned by herself next to the them. she would jog around the field everyday behind our show whethers. for 20 or 30 minutes and hang out with us when we were training them. .


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## redtailgal (Oct 18, 2011)

How well does he eat Livingwright?

Does he eat eagerly?

Plato will not eat eagerly unless I tie him to his bowl.  His routine at feed time, is to be handled and have his collar put on (we are working his poor 'tude as well).  Then he is tied short, and his feed placed.  I  make sure that he has a goat on either side of him.......he will eat much better if he thinks that other goat might get his food.  I am also raising his feed bowl so that he must put his front feet up on a cinder block to reach it.  After just a couple days of this, there was some marked improvement in muscling, so now all three of my boys eat on the "step".


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> we purchased a very malnourished doeling that was born in February, her mom had an injured teat and the owner didn't have the facility properly set up to creep feed and didn't try to bottle feed. she was right at 6 months old. We decided to take on the challenge based on her amazing pedigree. A diamond in the rough so to speak. We have had her For around 3 months now and the first 5 or 6 weeks I was doubting there would be any hope for her. Pot-bellied and furry and weighing in at around 45lbs while her herd mates that we purchased at the same time were toping 100lbs. First thing she started doing was putting on frame and lost the pot bellied look, got a little thinner looking, then her hair coat magically turned smooth and now she is putting on weight, she will probably never be the size and potential that she could have been, but our goal is to get enough frame on her and healthy enough to breed her by the time she is 18 months.
> 
> She was so malnourished she had these odd little nodules sticking from her ribs on both sides. We couldn't see them unti she started getting a smoother hair coat. When we showed her to a vet. He felt they were from her malnourishment and she had developed calciium build ups on some of her ribs. They looked like like marbles under her skin, attached to the bone and very hard. She still has them, but since she started putting weight on you can't see them.
> 
> She has the funniest personality. And never a day she isn't hungry. She really liked our show whethers so we would let her out when we were working with them to give her some exercise, otherwise she was penned by herself next to the them. she would jog around the field everyday behind our show whethers. for 20 or 30 minutes and hang out with us when we were training them. .


Sounds like a cutie!

One of the reasons that I want him to bulk back up, aside from getting him back to prime health, is that he is going to be a wether... and we don't want to do that to him until he is 100% better.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 18, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> How well does he eat Livingwright?
> 
> Does he eat eagerly?
> 
> Plato will not eat eagerly unless I tie him to his bowl.  His routine at feed time, is to be handled and have his collar put on (we are working his poor 'tude as well).  Then he is tied short, and his feed placed.  I  make sure that he has a goat on either side of him.......he will eat much better if he thinks that other goat might get his food.  I am also raising his feed bowl so that he must put his front feet up on a cinder block to reach it.  After just a couple days of this, there was some marked improvement in muscling, so now all three of my boys eat on the "step".


He will chow down(not even lifting his head) for the first 5 minutes and then he slows down and starts lifting his head making sure no one is coming to steal it from him or butt his backside.  The Critical Care(I call it goatmeal  ) we got from the vet a couple months ago, however, he will not lift his head until it is GONE!... like, lick the bowl clean, gone. 

I just might have to raise Reuben's dish... or re-install a wall mounted dish with a step under it. I am trying to lift his spirits now too, since his twin brother went away. They were the go everywhere together twins... and now he doesn't have his travelling buddy  poor guy.


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## Roll farms (Oct 19, 2011)

*If* the scours he had were caused by cocci, it could be he had damage to his intestinal lining that caused scarring, which bars nutrients from being absorbed as efficiently.

So even if he had it only a brief time, and got better / no longer has it, there could have been lasting damage done that can't be seen from the outside.


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## that's*satyrical (Oct 19, 2011)

When we got Enya she was a little on the scrawny side. I gave her 10cc of omega 3 supplement twice a day (started with once a day) Helped her put on a little weight & made her coat shine right up. Product is Advantech omega 3 plus high calorie liquid diet and dietary supplement. She also loved the taste so I only had to drench her the 1st couple times then she'd drink it willingly.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 19, 2011)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> When we got Enya she was a little on the scrawny side. I gave her 10cc of omega 3 supplement twice a day (started with once a day) Helped her put on a little weight & made her coat shine right up. Product is Advantech omega 3 plus high calorie liquid diet and dietary supplement. She also loved the taste so I only had to drench her the 1st couple times then she'd drink it willingly.


Sounds like what I have for High Calorie gloop. Only mine is Durvet (got it at TSC). I will try twice a day instead of once every other day. I didn't want to cause scouring by giving him too many calories too fast. Reuben loves the stuff too. To me it smells like vanilla pudding


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 19, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> *If* the scours he had were caused by cocci, it could be he had damage to his intestinal lining that caused scarring, which bars nutrients from being absorbed as efficiently.
> 
> So even if he had it only a brief time, and got better / no longer has it, there could have been lasting damage done that can't be seen from the outside.


The possibility exists. Hopefully he is just needing extra stuff now to catch-up his bulking with his growth. If giving the high calorie liquid on the sched. mentioned by *that's*satyrical * doesn't work in getting him up to where his bulk should be, then this is probably the unfortunate answer.

_If_ it is as you suggest, do you know of a way that I could get him to where he needs to be and continue keeping him where he should be?


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## Roll farms (Oct 19, 2011)

There's no way to fix it that I'm aware of.  

I had a lot of cocci babies my first year or two....they never quite 'catch up' and always seem to do more poorly than their unaffected peers.  Also always the 1st ones to catch any random bug or illness, too, due to the compromised / weakened immune system.

I would have 5 or 6 or 8 or 9 kids, and only one or two who actually got 'sick' / suffered w/ it.   The rest did fine.

That is why it's been our decision to treat aggressively for coccidia prevention.  
I couldn't eyeball / know in advance who'd suffer w/ it, and as a business, I needed the kids to be at their healthiest / heartiest.


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## redtailgal (Oct 19, 2011)

I was able to talk to the man who had socrates and plato before I got them and he had told me that plato had the runs "seriously bad" when he was about 3 weeks old.  

I think that is what is going on with him, so I will be doing some "serious" coccidia prevention with my does and babies.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 21, 2011)

Well, after just a couple days of giving Reuben the High Calorie gloop on the schedule that *that's*satyrical* said she did with her little Enya, he is already showing decent progress in his attitude, activity, and weight. I will edit this post in a little bit to include his weight as of today.


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## redtailgal (Oct 21, 2011)

um, ok, is Nutri-cal a high calorie goop that can be used on goats?


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## that's*satyrical (Oct 21, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Well, after just a couple days of giving Reuben the High Calorie gloop on the schedule that *that's*satyrical* said she did with her little Enya, he is already showing decent progress in his attitude, activity, and weight. I will edit this post in a little bit to include his weight as of today.


Yay! Glad it is working out for you


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 21, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> um, ok, is Nutri-cal a high calorie goop that can be used on goats?


Uhm... I don't know.  I use this: 





Sorry the pic is blurry.

and this is what it has:
http://www.drugs.com/vet/lamb-kid-omega-3-plus.html


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## redtailgal (Oct 21, 2011)

OK, I've seen it at my farm store.

I checked the Nutri_Cal that I use on dogs, cats and snakes. It's a meat type paste so I dont think it would work for goats!


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 21, 2011)

that's*satyrical said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Me too!


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