# what color



## feed grass (Jun 12, 2012)

any good color charts online?  

Getting back in the rabbits from a LONG TIME AGO...  

First two here, thinking the brown female could be a Cinnamon colored deal-- from what I've seen.  

Thoughts?  

Crossed up meat rabbits.

I don't care what kind I raise-- just so they've got meat on them.  I also don't care what color they are-- but would like to get as many color options from the offspring as I can.  I told the guy to pick me out a pair that should give me the most color if mated together..  I know that his only two females were solid black- and his buck was colored like my little buck.  He says the color swings come from his buck- as his does are supposed to be straight black.  He had many different colors- but picked these two for me..

next question- what color else should I try to add- to maximize my color outcome possibilities.?  I have another buddy with totally different crossed up meat rabbits-- of other colors that I have access to... including some straight Cinnamon deals- they had a really cool smoke colored baby earlier-- but they're keeping her...  

I guess my real question is, where do I find more info about colors, and their dom/ rec traits?


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## therealsilkiechick (Jun 12, 2012)

top one is tort-black and bottom is broken black. search online for rabbit color genetics it will show ya tons of info.


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## feed grass (Jun 13, 2012)

therealsilkiechick said:
			
		

> top one is tort-black and bottom is broken black. search online for rabbit color genetics it will show ya tons of info.


any specific places that are better than others?  I know with other species- some places just don't have the 'info'=-= if you get the jist.


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## therealsilkiechick (Jun 13, 2012)

hmmm.. i look it up by what breeds i raise. i'm not awake yet and my 5 kid's r up. i'll look later see if i can find ya some links to check. are you wanting them with pics or just color and genetic info charts?


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## feed grass (Jun 13, 2012)

therealsilkiechick said:
			
		

> hmmm.. i look it up by what breeds i raise. i'm not awake yet and my 5 kid's r up. i'll look later see if i can find ya some links to check. are you wanting them with pics or just color and genetic info charts?


preferably pictures and definitions of what's dominate over what...  I spent nearly all day today looking at the different genetic combinations and the dom/ rec genes on the different loci (which is easy to understand)... but what I did not find is such say breed a black tort bunny= to a harlequin--  genes for color and expression are on two different  locations-- so which one trumps the other?  

i spent also a good deal of time reading about what colors you should breed together, and which ones you should avoid.. if I  had interest in showing, or making rabbits to the breed standard-- this might matter-- but in my case where they'll all get ate-- but I want to get as many different color combos in each litter-- just for visual pleasure-- i could care less about what colors not to mate together for causing future colors down the road.

Get what I'm saying?  I know cattle the best-- in which black is dominate over all other colors-- but can be diluted by Char white, can be added a white face by the Herf pattern-- and can be roaned out by the shorthorn roan gene... all on the same animal...


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## Bunnylady (Jun 13, 2012)

feed grass said:
			
		

> preferably pictures and definitions of what's dominate over what...  I spent nearly all day today looking at the different genetic combinations and the dom/ rec genes on the different loci (which is easy to understand)... but what I did not find is such say breed a black tort bunny= to a harlequin--  genes for color and expression are on two different  locations-- so which one trumps the other?
> 
> i


It's funny that you chose that particular example. The principle genes involved in tort are self (a) at the A locus, and non-extension (e) at the E locus; both are the most recessive allele in their respective series. The principle genes in Harlequin are Agouti (A), the most dominant allele in the A series, and the harlequin (ej) in the E series. ej is dominant to e, so if you breed a tort to a harlequin, you get harlequins.

The thing is, every rabbit has to have 2 copies of something at the A locus, whether they be A's, at's, a's or any combination of those. Every rabbit also has 2 genes at the B locus, 2 at the C locus, etc. It is the combination of what he has at  A, B, C, D, E, V, En, etc, that determines what color he is - all of them, *together*. 

If you have at least one agouti (A) allele on a Harlequin, you get a good Harlie, with clear areas of black and orange (we aren't discussing brindling, here - that's another issue entirely). If you have 2 self (a) alleles, you get smutty areas on the face, feet, ears, etc., the same areas that are dark on a tort. Or, to put it another way, you get what looks like a tort, with a harlequin pattern overlaid on it. You see? The self allele causes  extra black on the rabbit, most evident on the "points," that isn't entirely removed by either the non-extension (e) nor by the harlequin (ej). If you want "good" harlequins, you have to have the Agouti allele at the A locus. With self (aa), you'll still have animals that are recognizably harlequin patterned, but they will be smutty.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I can't point you to a website, because I don't know of one. I learned this stuff more than 20 years ago, the old-fashioned way - by reading it in books. I have bred Harlequin rabbits for at least 20 years, as well as Netherland Dwarfs, Jersey Woolies, Mini Rex, and Holland Lops. I've seen more weird colors crop up, some which I knew how to describe, but I really don't know if they have a "name" for that particular genetic combination or not. Your doe, for example, is a tort. For some reason, there is a large, commercial type breed that is _called_ the Cinnamon, that is tort colored. However, the _color_ cinnamon is actually a chestnut agouti with chocolate genes! So if you have a "cinnamon colored" rabbit, that is a totally different color from a Cinnamon rabbit. (is your head starting to hurt yet?!)


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## feed grass (Jun 13, 2012)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> feed grass said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my buddy borrowed a true Cinnamon male to use, and kept 2 sons for breeding-- however, this rabbit did not come from him-- she originated from two very high percentage NZ parents, one being solid black and the other broken black (nearly identical to the young buck I pictured).  

My question- how does the smokey white colored ones compare to this here tort, both genetically and in breeding on ability?  I'm thinking about adding one of those-- which does trace back to the Cinnamon buck, which will be my female addition from that friend.  

It's my understanding that the red eyed NZ can really be any color under that white- so it's a crap shoot as to what they could produce?  What colors could this tort deal produce, since she's recessive-- would it be nearly any color other than hers, unless bred back to at least a recessive tort carrier- is there such a thing?


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## Bunnylady (Jun 14, 2012)

Breeding to NZ whites can be really confusing, because, as you said, there can be _anything_ hiding under the REW. I had a NZ doe that was carrying Steel, something that I have heard is fairly common in NZ's. If you don't know how Steel works, breeding it into a line can give you some very puzzling results! There are a lot of ways that it can give you animals that look like black selfs, but when you breed them, they produce colors that can't possibly come from selfs (aa).

As I said, tort is recessive, so for a bunny to be tort (ee), it had to get a non-extension allele (e) from both of the parents. The breeder may have _said_ his buck carries the funky genes, but for the cross to produce tort, the doe *must* be carrying non-extension as well. Is your buck a full sibling to the doe? If they have one parent in common, then he has about a 25% chance of carrying a non-extension allele as well. If they came from the same cross, then the odds are 50/50. You have a good chance of producing torts if you breed your two rabbits together. Since the buck is a broken (Enen), and the broken allele (En) is dominant, you can get brokens, and maybe broken torts, from the cross as well.

I'm not sure exactly what  you mean by a smokey white colored rabbit, so I can't comment on one genetically. How well a rabbit produces is partly determined by management, of course, but individual bloodlines play a large part. Does that are good producers frequently have daughters that are good producers, regardless of what breed they are. Meatier rabbits usually have babies that tend to have more meat on them; it is not uncommon for breeders of one particular breed to outcross to another breed to try to get more meat on the rabbits in their herd. A bit of new blood from another breed does no harm, as long as you keep in mind what the breed is supposed to be like, and select breeding stock with that in mind.  You sound like you have 2 goals; you'd like good, meaty rabbits, but you also want the entertainment value of lots of colors. Hopefully, you won't have to sacrifice one to achieve the other - but, if I had to make a choice,  I would pick type over color every time.


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## feed grass (Jun 14, 2012)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> Breeding to NZ whites can be really confusing, because, as you said, there can be _anything_ hiding under the REW. I had a NZ doe that was carrying Steel, something that I have heard is fairly common in NZ's. If you don't know how Steel works, breeding it into a line can give you some very puzzling results! There are a lot of ways that it can give you animals that look like black selfs, but when you breed them, they produce colors that can't possibly come from selfs (aa).
> 
> As I said, tort is recessive, so for a bunny to be tort (ee), it had to get a non-extension allele (e) from both of the parents. The breeder may have _said_ his buck carries the funky genes, but for the cross to produce tort, the doe *must* be carrying non-extension as well. Is your buck a full sibling to the doe? If they have one parent in common, then he has about a 25% chance of carrying a non-extension allele as well. If they came from the same cross, then the odds are 50/50. You have a good chance of producing torts if you breed your two rabbits together. Since the buck is a broken (Enen), and the broken allele (En) is dominant, you can get brokens, and maybe broken torts, from the cross as well.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what  you mean by a smokey white colored rabbit, so I can't comment on one genetically. How well a rabbit produces is partly determined by management, of course, but individual bloodlines play a large part. Does that are good producers frequently have daughters that are good producers, regardless of what breed they are. Meatier rabbits usually have babies that tend to have more meat on them; it is not uncommon for breeders of one particular breed to outcross to another breed to try to get more meat on the rabbits in their herd. A bit of new blood from another breed does no harm, as long as you keep in mind what the breed is supposed to be like, and select breeding stock with that in mind.  You sound like you have 2 goals; you'd like good, meaty rabbits, but you also want the entertainment value of lots of colors. Hopefully, you won't have to sacrifice one to achieve the other - but, if I had to make a choice,  I would pick type over color every time.


the two pictured above-- are genetically full siblings- but I believe they are from different- litter mate mothers.  I'm not positive, I went to the guy's place- for an totally different reason-- and ended up getting back in touch with him after seeing these bunnies...  I basically told him to pick me out two that will work for me.

Your are right- my main goal is a big, fast growing, efficient meat rabbit.. the color won't be selected for or against-- just for shear pleasure and surprise at birthing time.  

the smoky white I refer to- is basically the same color as the tort above-- but instead of brown-- they are white.  They have black or grey points, and grey shading around those points.. in other species terms-- leakage.  through the whole body to a slight extent...

I don't have a picture of one-- but I have seen pictures of them on here before- forget where.


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## therealsilkiechick (Jun 14, 2012)

the smokey white you refer to sounds like a smoke pearl if blue color. 

 i have really enjoyed reading bunnylady's replies it is helping me to know what i need to do with my harlequin, tri-colors and tort hollands and mini rexes. very good info, ty ty!!


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## kfacres (Jun 15, 2012)

therealsilkiechick said:
			
		

> the smokey white you refer to sounds like a smoke pearl if blue color.
> 
> *any pics of that, to see if you're correct?*
> i have really enjoyed reading bunnylady's replies it is helping me very good info, ty ty!!
> ...


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## TherapyBunnies (Jul 4, 2012)

On my phone so it is hard to copy in links. There are some great rabbit genotype calculators on the web. The natural trail has a good chart of the 144 possible colors. Kim's Rabbit Hutch has a good calculator. Welshs &mamsrabbits also have good color calculators. Google rabit genotype calculator & all of thse should be on the first page of links.


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