# Looking into goats, advice on breed selection



## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Hello all, and thanks in advance for any advice.

Ive been on backyard chickens for a while, with my flock of 10 production red hens and 2 roosters. I have all the eggs I need and then some, and then some more. I have many more in the process of being hatched, and will likely have quite a few chickens in the freezer for the winter. It took me a few months of research before taking the plunge and getting my flock, and I intend to take the same slow, methodical approach to goats. 

I would like as much of a multi-purpose goat as possible, providing milk, butter, cheese, as well as meat. I am unsure though, whether it would be better to have milk goats with less meat, or meat goats with less milk. 

For those of you with different breeds, can you get a decent amount of quality meat from a backyard herd of dairy goats? Will Boers or TN Fainting goats supply a family of four with enough milk for drinking, butter, and some cheese? I know Nubians (I think) are suppose to have the highest butter fat, but are other breeds still workable for making butter? 

For reference, My goats will be kept in a small pen, probably to be around 50x50. Would keeping 2 breeds, 1 dairy and 1 meat, work in a small area, and be simple enough for a newbie getting on the job training? Though I won't be completely self-sufficient with them, what's a good starting number to work from so that my herd, other than bringing in some genetic variety on occassion, will be relatively self sufficient.?


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 8, 2011)

A friend of mine has a pygmy nigerian cross that is one of the best mini milkers I've ever seen.  Sweet on the stand, throws nice solid freezer boys no matter what she's bred with and all her kids are bottle baby sweet as pie even though they are dam raised.    She's had twins first year and trips the last two and is getting a year off this year though or I'd tell you to nab up those babies.  She retained one and sold the other two. I have one of her boys as a 3yr old whether and he's a back pocket goat when you are doing farm chores. 

Just make sure that if you go small you check teat structure.  Some of the minis have teeny tiny teats that you have to milk with just your finger and thumb.  Some are decently built though. 

Also since you have a small space and limited room for goats. Be picky!!  There are always more goats. I promise. Craigslist and farm store bulletins are full of them this time of year.  You'll also see some good deals around October and people start thinning out before winter.  Just make sure that you really go over the animal carefully and try and milk it before you buy it.


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2011)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> A friend of mine has a pygmy nigerian cross that is one of the best mini milkers I've ever seen.  Sweet on the stand, throws nice solid freezer boys no matter what she's bred with and all her kids are bottle baby sweet as pie even though they are dam raised.    She's had twins first year and trips the last two and is getting a year off this year though or I'd tell you to nab up those babies.  She retained one and sold the other two. I have one of her boys as a 3yr old whether and he's a back pocket goat when you are doing farm chores.
> 
> Just make sure that if you go small you check teat structure.  Some of the minis have teeny tiny teats that you have to milk with just your finger and thumb.  Some are decently built though.
> 
> Also since you have a small space and limited room for goats. Be picky!!  There are always more goats. I promise. Craigslist and farm store bulletins are full of them this time of year.  You'll also see some good deals around October and people start thinning out before winter.  Just make sure that you really go over the animal carefully and try and milk it before you buy it.


x2 - Good advice.  A project I'm currently working on myself...getting the best of all worlds by combining the 2 dwarf breeds


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

From thinking about meat, I didn't really look much into the smaller breeds. I know they are different, but what kind of average weight would I expect at 8-9 months? What amount of milk should I expect from a single doe? Not looking for just one, but trying to use it as a measure of how many I would need. Also, I am in SC. Are there any breeds I should avoid with our long, hot, humid summers?


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## hillbillycitygirl (Jun 8, 2011)

I have 3 nubians, one nubian gives more than enough milk for my family of 6. They eat alot too, so they are a bit pricey that way. If you are okay with milking a smaller goat, or can get your hands on a henry milker (we made our own and it works excellent!) then go for a smaller goat. Mini lamanchas are great, my friend has a few and they are super sweet and give great milk.

also, by more than enough milk for a family of 6, I mean one goat is giving me about 3 quarts of milk per day. (there are 4 quarts in a gallon) thats alot of milk. I only keep my milk for 4 days so we dump alot and make cheese and soap and yogurt too.


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2011)

Kaceyx73 said:
			
		

> From thinking about meat, I didn't really look much into the smaller breeds. I know they are different, but what kind of average weight would I expect at 8-9 months? What amount of milk should I expect from a single doe? Not looking for just one, but trying to use it as a measure of how many I would need. Also, I am in SC. Are there any breeds I should avoid with our long, hot, humid summers?


My pygmy wethers are between 60-70# live weight at 8-9 months getting little grain and mostly pasture / hay.

Doe to doe can and will vary on milk production.

Here's a quote on ND milk production:



> From Storey's Guide to Raising Dairy Goats:
> 
> The Nigerian Dwarf is of particular interest to backyarders. Introduced in the early 1980s when they were seen mostly in zoos, some of these little imports are excellent milkers for their size. As more serious breeders continue to develop them, their milk production is constantly increasing. What's more, they are considered dual-purpose animals, providing both milk and meat. The Nigerian Dwarf was the breed chosen for the Biosphere 2 experiment, in which eight people spent two years along with 3,500 plant and animal species and no outside supplies or support except electricity. Biosphere 2 was designed as a space-colony model, though ecological research became the primary, scientific goal. At any rate, future space travelers might be milking Nigerian Dwarfs!
> 
> One Nigerian Dwarf doe gave a whopping 6.3 pounds of milk on test day, and another had 11.3 percent butterfat. (2006 Update: the new one-day high is 6.8 pounds of milk!) A well-bred and well-managed Dwarf can be expected to produce an average of a quart a day over a 305-day lactation. Many of these good producers have teats as large as those of the full-sized breeds and are milked just as easily.


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Wow!!

So one or 2 goats for milk should produce enough throughout the year easily. If they are alternated during kidding, that's 2 kids every 6 months or so, averaged out? At 60-70#, that's a useable 15-20# of meat per kid? Have I interpreted that right? At 15# times 4 kids a year, thats 60# of meat. 

Sorry not trying to be scientific about it, just thinking out loud so that if Im off base hopefully you folks can correct me before my mind indulges itself in delusions of goat meat cooked in butter and spices while the sun comes up and I turn to stone...lol

How much feed should I bank on per month for 2 milkers, a buck, and a 2-6 kids romping around? I'd like them to get as much as I can from pasture, but I'd rather plan on feed and be pleasantly surprised by not needing as much.


Including furniture, what would be the most I could REASONABLY keep in a 50x50 pen and keep 'em happy?


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 8, 2011)

She doesn't weigh the milk but gets between 1-2 qts a day with milking once a day at an irregular time.  


 I felt the boys were well worth butchering but I just don't have any weights on them. Sorry.  Don't forget saving things like bones and scraps to make soup stock to freeze as well.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 8, 2011)

Also look into the drylot practices that are going on in India. Kind of cool. They keep the goats in an enclosure small enough to run around in basically (not confined like veal)  and then bring them cut live food like grass, tree branches, leaves, browse type stuff.   Because the goats expend less energy foraging they get bigger faster and the meat is supposed to be more tender.   

 Also you have animals that are totally dependent on you for food which tends to make them a little more friendly.  (no chasing 1/2 feral meat goats across 3 acres of field)


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2011)

Kaceyx73 said:
			
		

> Wow!!
> 
> So one or 2 goats for milk should produce enough throughout the year easily. If they are alternated during kidding, that's 2 kids every 6 months or so, averaged out? At 60-70#, that's a useable 15-20# of meat per kid? Have I interpreted that right? At 15# times 4 kids a year, thats 60# of meat.
> 
> ...


Roughly that amount of meat...maybe a little more.  I like the small goats for this because it's enough for a family and doesn't take up huge amounts of freezer space.

For some reason I'm having a hard time picturing a 50x50 area    It's so hot outside my brain must be fried!  Anyway...I'm thinking that's probably kind of a small area...going with dwarf goats I would probably do 3 or 4 does and a buck in that space.  You're gonna get 1-4 (rarely 5) kids from each doe.  You can technically breed your does 2x a year, but I wouldn't advise it - a rotational breeding schedule would be more advisable but you'd need to separately house the buck for that.

I'll come back to the feed question later when my brain is working normally


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## savingdogs (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm fairly new to goats myself, but from what I've read, most goats really either intended to be for meat or intended to be for milk, not too many dual purposes.  

I have dairy goats, mini-nubians and I'm very fond of them, I cannot imagine eating them (and we process our own duck, chicken and rabbit). In addition, a dairy kid (and mine are "mutts") sold for 75.00 apiece and didn't weigh a lot or have much meat, so that would have been a really expensive goat dinner.  I think the dairy breeds cost too much to raise up for the amount of meat they produce vs what they are worth live. 

I've not raised meat goats however so perhaps someone here has experience with milking them to let you know how profitable that would be. 

I have mini nubians as I said and they produce about a half gallon apiece a day. Cost for keeping them more than equals the cost of buying milk and milk products so there is no true savings (at least for me at my scale) but the quality of my milk products has gone up considerably and we also have the benefit of the clearing the brush during certain seasons. During the winter our feed costs skyrocket because they have so much less forage. It would be hard for anyone to estimate the cost of goats unless they saw how much natural forage your goats would have. But I find my goats cost me about 20 dollars more a week in feed when they are lactating. So there is not a significant savings, except that I'm producing our dairy products at home and I'm self sufficient and the quality is much higher, to some extent it is not financially any benefit over buying milk. Also, they will not produce year round.

Whereas we also have chickens and we sell eggs and MAKE money on our chickens despite many people feeling their chickens are costing them money, and they pretty much provide us plenty of eggs for year round although we stop selling for a few weeks in the winter. 

I hope my perspective as a small backyard goat person is helpful.


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2011)

double post


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Suburbanfarmchic,

Thanks. Keeping bones and making stock is matter of practice around here, as I already have chickens. Silly question... What kind of meat do you get from a 70# goat? Is is mostly stew meat, maybe a little for grinding and such? Do the hams do ok for putting in a pot of beans, etc? Any small cutlets for steak to speak of? 

I am familiar with deer. Dad always got stew meat (cubes) and ground with some fat added. The tenderloin was cut for breakfast steaks as he called them. Occasionally he get some cubed steak out of a bigger buck. I helped cut a few up as a teenager when he got one he thought was a little too small too pay for processing.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm terrible for numbers because I don't weigh anything. I really should but by the time I think about it what ever it is is already in the freezer. 


***Graphic butchering description to follow *****



Think of it like a small deer.  I shoot, bleed and then hang.  Then skin, then basically debone the meat off of the hanging carcass.  That way if I run out of time, something happens, etc I'm not stuck with still bone in meat I can tech just toss the whole tub in the fridge and walk a way for a couple hours if needed.  I do the same thing with deer and small pigs.  Also this way the only meat that gets a chance of being ruined by spillage is the small inner loin pieces and the ribs/stomach area.  Oh and shoulder pieces come off with bones in since they just peel away anyway. 

Going down the animal head to tail you should have a neck roast, 2 shoulder joints w/ attached shank, 2 back straps, and 2 deboned haunches.  Follow the inner muscle lines to debone these and then just flay them of the pelvis. They will pretty much fall away.   This is all before you touch the guts and will be nice clean meat.  

For us the shoulders fall into what we call stew/grinder.  Same as the shank on all 4 legs.  

The 2 backstraps/tenderloin/big honkin pieces of meat next to the back bone: These are great in a dutch oven. They FALL APART.   Also cut them into what we called Butterfly steaks.  The loin itself is like 2" across so you cut a super wide steak and then cut it in 1/2 again almost to the gristle but not through. Then the steak falls open like butter fly wings and you have a 4" wide steak at the thickness you want.   You can also cut them on the diagonal to get even more width/length and then butterfly them.  

The back haunches.  Ok if you follow the muscle lines you will end up with 3 "roast" sized pieces.  The one that is shaped like a football can be cut across the grain to make steaks.   The flatter piece I have filleted in the past so that it is cut in 1/2 to be shaped like a book and then rolled with veggies and garlic and then tied and roasted. Mmm.  The third piece I usually just left as a roast because well sometimes you need a crock pot roast. 

Now that you are done with the clean meat remove the entrails in the manor appropriate to the sex of the animal you are butchering.  We typically send the belly with stew grinder and the ribs with the stock bones for added fat/flavor.  The best piece of meat is along the inner spine     Hide them in the freezer and cook them on a special occasion.  

This method also works if you can't hang and need to butcher the whole carcass flat on a table/board.  

I have been pleasantly surprised with the amount of meat we get off of a goat.  I have butchered one that I basically felt like I could have been processing a poodle and we did a big 2yr old buck that turned nasty.  I've had no issue with off flavor resulting from the exterior smell of the animal. 

I wish I had actual numbers for you as to amounts of meat that we got and I hope that helps.  You can really think of them like deer as far as processing.  And don't be afraid to cut a roast into steaks.


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Savingdogs,

thanks for your reply. I also have chickens, and I break even money wise. This isn't really a business decision for me, its a matter of survival. I see no economy restarting at all, only faked numbers for headlines and then revisions that look worse. For example, if unemployment was still calculated the same way it was during the great depression, our unemployment is already around 23%, with 30% during the depression at its peak. The second part of the crash is still coming, likely this fall. This time though, instead of falling prices, I think we face hyperinflation. Its the only way we can come close to paying any of our bills. 

My intention isn't to start a political discussion ( I hate all politicians equally, regardless of party), just to point out why I am determined to do this.

A small herd of goats alone may not provide all of my food, but added in with eggs and meat from my chickens, and all my veggies from the garden, and the basic perennial herbs I grow, and what I have put back over the last couple of years, I think it will go along way. Adding rabbits might be easier and maybe cheaper, but I cant get milk, butter, soap, and such from rabbits. 

The really beautiful part for me is simple. If I am wrong, I am still much more self-sufficient than  was, and I will KNOW from whence the majority of my food comes from.


Suburbanfarmchic, 

Thanks for that primer on butchering. Do you let them hang in a fridge for a few days or butcher the day you bleed it? Do you age it before freezing? I have heard of some folks soaking the meat in changes of clean cool water over a day or so to get the "wild" taste out of deer. Saves time and especially space if its at a premium.

As for cooking, is it similar to venison in being tough if overcooked? Shoot for "just done" at the most?


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 8, 2011)

I go from animal to freezer in about 4 hours. 

Cooks very similar to venison. Watch drying it out.


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

What about food? Will they eat mostly hay, supplemented with an actually feed? Or is hay just something to much on? The plot I am thinking of has a lot of underbrush currently for browsing, so I'm trying to gauge what the feed cost would look like. If they can eat mostly hay and brush, then feed costs are much more attractive. I can still get bagged feed for about 10 bucks, but considering how fast my flock goes through a 50# bag, I can imagine 2 adults and 4 kids at different stages going through a bag a week... lol.

Any hay better than others? I see a lot of coastal fescue and bermuda hay locally on CL.


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## elevan (Jun 8, 2011)

Kaceyx73 said:
			
		

> What about food? Will they eat mostly hay, supplemented with an actually feed? Or is hay just something to much on? The plot I am thinking of has a lot of underbrush currently for browsing, so I'm trying to gauge what the feed cost would look like. If they can eat mostly hay and brush, then feed costs are much more attractive. I can still get bagged feed for about 10 bucks, but considering how fast my flock goes through a 50# bag, I can imagine 2 adults and 4 kids at different stages going through a bag a week... lol.
> 
> Any hay better than others? I see a lot of coastal fescue and bermuda hay locally on CL.


Mine eat mainly hay and browse.  My hay is orchard grass / clover / alfalfa mix. 

Grain is a debated topic.  Some believe in graining and some don't.  You don't have to grain, really.  IMO pregnant or lactating does need grain.  So do bucks when breeding (they don't really need any other time).

I grain kids...some people don't.  Small breeds really don't take a lot of grain.  I give mine about a cup to no more than 2 cups each daily in bad weather and winter.  If it's not raining or snowing they are out in the field eating browse.


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 8, 2011)

Do you give feed or grains more as a treat then? What kind? Alfalfa cubes, sweet treat, corn?

Any other mineral supplements? Salt lick,  etc?


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## KinderKorner (Jun 9, 2011)

Kinder Goats! In my opinion the best choice for a dual purpose breed! You can look at my website to see some of mine. (Be warned it's a mess and still being worked on)

Look them up on google. They are a smaller breed that is a nubian and pygmy cross. They are great milkers and great for meat as well. They have high butterfat content so you can make cheese and butter. Super sweet, have great personalities, and are very hardy.  They can have up to 6 kids but 2-3 is the most common. 

I got mine a few years ago and couldn't be happier.


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## elevan (Jun 10, 2011)

Kaceyx73 said:
			
		

> Do you give feed or grains more as a treat then? What kind? Alfalfa cubes, sweet treat, corn?
> 
> Any other mineral supplements? Salt lick,  etc?


They get Noble Goat pellets when it's winter or raining all day and they won't go out, if they are pregnant, lactating or need to be "beefed" up.

Hay is free choice late fall - late spring.  When the browse is good, we only hay on extremely rainy days.

My goats have a choice of loose minerals and mineral blocks...I keep both out all the time and they all use both depending on the day.

For some reason most of my goats won't touch alfalfa cubes/ pellets...

I do occasionally give fruit / veggie trimmings as a treat.

With pygmies I don't want to overdo treats or they become over conditioned.

You're gonna get all kinds of answers on feeding


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## farmerlor (Jun 10, 2011)

I'm almost ashamed to tell you this but y'know those cheap old fashioned iced oatmeal cookies from the grocery store?  They're like .98 per pkg at our store.  I buy those by the CASE and give them as treats to the goaties when they're done milking.  They get a handful of grain in the feeding tray to keep them busy while I milk and eager to get into the stanchion and when we're done they stand there and wait for their cookie and then move on.  Spoiled goaties!  Bad Goatie owner!  They sometimes get carrots or grapes or apples for a little treat too but the cookies are now part of their routine and they won't leave the stanchion without their "good job" cookie.


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## Matthew3590 (Jun 10, 2011)

farmerlor said:
			
		

> I'm almost ashamed to tell you this but y'know those cheap old fashioned iced oatmeal cookies from the grocery store?  They're like .98 per pkg at our store.  I buy those by the CASE and give them as treats to the goaties when they're done milking.  They get a handful of grain in the feeding tray to keep them busy while I milk and eager to get into the stanchion and when we're done they stand there and wait for their cookie and then move on.  Spoiled goaties!  Bad Goatie owner!  They sometimes get carrots or grapes or apples for a little treat too but the cookies are now part of their routine and they won't leave the stanchion without their "good job" cookie.


Whatever gets the job done


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## elevan (Jun 10, 2011)

farmerlor said:
			
		

> I'm almost ashamed to tell you this but y'know those cheap old fashioned iced oatmeal cookies from the grocery store?  They're like .98 per pkg at our store.  I buy those by the CASE and give them as treats to the goaties when they're done milking.  They get a handful of grain in the feeding tray to keep them busy while I milk and eager to get into the stanchion and when we're done they stand there and wait for their cookie and then move on.  Spoiled goaties!  Bad Goatie owner!  They sometimes get carrots or grapes or apples for a little treat too but the cookies are now part of their routine and they won't leave the stanchion without their "good job" cookie.




Spoiled rotten goaties!


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## Kaceyx73 (Jun 10, 2011)

Oatmeal cookies... I'll have to remember that one!!!!


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