# What type of guardian for me?



## Southdown (May 23, 2012)

I have sheep, chickens, and cats.  I would love a guardian for them, but it cannot kill the chickens or cats.  Is this even possible?  What could work with these animals?  A dog, llama, alpaca, mini donkey?  I've heard about the great pyreness, but my concern with that is that the dog could bite people.  We have lots of people come onto our property and I'm afraid a dog could be too much of a liability towards the people.  On the other hand, I've also thought of a small dog that could maybe heard the sheep, but not be big enough to hurt people if it did bite.  A small dog would not be able to take on a fox, but maybe the bark would keep the fox away?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 23, 2012)

If you get a LGD such as a Great Pyrenees or an Anatolian Shepard they will kill chickens. You can train it out of them but the will kill some when they are young. My Anatolian killed one today. With an Anatolian you may or might not be able to have people over and with the livestock. The Great Pyrenees is a little better about that. You can have people over as long as you are with the dogs. The thing is with an LGD you have to know how to handle the dog. You can not allow the dog to own you. I don't know anything about donkeys or any of the other livestock guardians. Dogs are the best and smartest livestock guardians in my opinion. Good luck whichever way you end up going.


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## crazyland (May 24, 2012)

Each dog is different. 
I had a great pyr and she would roam. She was raised with poultry and would not harm them not did she mess with the cats. She also got along with people and other dogs. 
Don't know about other lgd breeds or guardians.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (May 24, 2012)

What do you want protection FROM? Fox? Anything else? Cattle dogs are actually pretty good. Their medium sized (unless you have a chubby one like us  ) and great. Male may not be the best choice, as they are pretty submissive, but females will at least TRY and kill anything that threatens anything of 'theres'. Their cattle dogs, and would work well with sheep (ours do) and ours have never even licked their lips around chickens.Each dog is different, but this is our experince. They are high energy dogs (our female- never stops running, our male- wants to eat  ), so herding sheep would be good. Their Loyal (and more often then not you get them younger then most pups because they drive their mothers NUTS) and smart, and trust me, if they think they can take it on (which to most of them killing a bear is just  no problem! LOL, in their minds at least) they will try, and even if they fail, they ain't gonna be quiet in the proscess. Their good at notifying you if a human comes, barking and such, but from OUR experince, our dogs throw a fit barking at the people, but melt like butter when they come close within petting range 

This is based off our experince, and true, each dog is different, but BASING on THIS breed on OUR experince, the females are dominant and loyal, loving attention and during naything to get praise,  and the males are laid back, sweeties, who would attack a fox, but perhaps just bark at it.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 24, 2012)

Here are some of the pros and cons of the Anatolian Shepard and Great Pyrenees. A Pyr will be much better with other people and other animals. As long as you are with the people/person then the dog will let them in and be OK with them. An Anatolian more than likely won't, unless you and the dog have a strong bond and it really trusts you. You MUST raise an Anatolian with other dogs so it doesn't kill them. If you just throw a dog with an Anatolian then it will more than likely kill it. A Pyr will kill most anything that comes in or around it's animals. Females are much more fierce than the males. The males are big babies. They want to love on you all the time. They will still guard but not as well as a female will. With the Anatolian the males are more fierce. That can be an issue though. It is hard to get them to listen and they do their own thing. With the females, they are just as fierce but easier to work with and not as hard-headed. The good thing about an Anatolian is they will kill ANYTHING that comes in there. They are the fiercest guard dogs out there. They were bred to kill wolves. Both the Pyr and the Anatolian get about the same size. They can both be raised with goats, sheep and other livestock. You have to train them with chickens because they will kill them until you do. If you want to raise them with cattle then the Anatolian is better. People who have huge farms with hundreds of acres of pasture use the Anatolian Shepard. One of the real upsides for the Anatolian is they can take the extreme heat and the extreme cold. They were bred in Turkey were it is either really hot or really cold. The Pyrs can take the cold, but not the heat. Places like North Carolina is about as far south as they can go. Any further is to hot for them. The biggest downside to the Anatolian is the price tag. it is very hard finding one for under $1000. Prys can go for as low as $200. If you want a good one it will be between $400-$800.  I hope this helps and GL on your search.


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## Southdown (May 24, 2012)

I would want protection from foxes, coyotes, muskrats, opossums, and skunks.  (Also our neighbors black labs.)  What small breed of dog would work?  What breeds are you referring to for "cattle" dogs?  What about mini donkeys?  They don't necessarily have to be able to kill the predator, but maybe just keep them away based on bark and or smell.


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## CochinBrahmaLover=) (May 24, 2012)

Southdown said:
			
		

> I would want protection from foxes, coyotes, muskrats, opossums, and skunks.  (Also our neighbors black labs.)  What small breed of dog would work?  What breeds are you referring to for "cattle" dogs?  What about mini donkeys?  They don't necessarily have to be able to kill the predator, but maybe just keep them away based on bark and or smell.


Oh dang, i never did specify did i ? LOL

Australian Cattle dogs, also known as blue or red heelers. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Thats our little girl 

Oh, an Australian cattle dog (based off their spunk) would be able to drive off ANY animal (at least in their mind, but they've ran off a mama moose of our property. Well, Almost did, but we quickly grabbed them) The biggest problem would be coyote, but they would still try, and if you got say 2, they would have good chances

Don't know about donkeys other then our big quarter horse once thought they would eat him.


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## Citylife (May 24, 2012)

How much land do you have?
If you get a small dog to bark and mark, I dont think a coyote will be scared off much.  Remember, coyotes to are pack animals and have been known to get your dog to follow them and run into the "pack" to become a quick easy dinner.  If you mean small (under 30 lbs.)  a barking dog isnt going to do much good on most of those preditors.  They will learn real quick its not a threat.
I dont know where you live, but donkeys are noisey when they start up.  There are a lot of variables here.  
I have 4 dogs on my new 2 acre city property, goats, chickens, rabbits in hanging cages.  Livestock is locked up every night.  Dogs sleep in the house.  A normal LG would not work for me as they bark at night to let everyone know they are their.  Not good in the city.  Animals locked up for everyones saftey.
A little more info would be helpful.  
good luck to you.


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## secuono (May 25, 2012)

I am getting a Great Pyrenees mixed with a Maremma in June! She will live with my chickens, ducks and rabbits with daytime access to roam with the sheep and horses if all goes well [if the pony doesn't chase her and she attacks him]. 
GPs are the friendliest of the LGDs, if your dog isn't supposed to guard against people, then you just need to socialize him/her to all kinds of people, like you would any other dog. So out to puppy classes, to petstores, parks and other places that have lots of people while she is very little and as she grows. 
My only worry is fencing, since a LGD can clear a 5ft fence easily and hot wire does not always stop them. 
You don't want any like a Kengal and the such, they will hunt down and kill anything that comes after or pressures their flock. 
LGDs bark to keep away predators, only go for them when they ignore the warnings.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 25, 2012)

I do not think a Pyr can clear a 5 ft fence. On the farm there are 3 Pyrs and I know at least 6 others that have Pyrs. I have never heard of one ever clearing even a 4 ft fence. If you have Pyrs you know that the are big dogs that don't seem to have good coordination unless they are going after a predator. I assure you a Pyr will not go over a 5 ft fence. Also everybody I know with Pyrs have has wonderful  success with hot wire. The dogs won't go near it.


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## secuono (May 25, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> I do not think a Pyr can clear a 5 ft fence. On the farm there are 3 Pyrs and I know at least 6 others that have Pyrs. I have never heard of one ever clearing even a 4 ft fence. If you have Pyrs you know that the are big dogs that don't seem to have good coordination unless they are going after a predator. I assure you a Pyr will not go over a 5 ft fence. Also everybody I know with Pyrs have has wonderful  success with hot wire. The dogs won't go near it.


Right, but if you search on LGD heavy forums, you will learn that GPs can and will go through hot wire as well as 5ft fencing if determined enough. I am not saying all will, just saying it is possible and best to be safe than find your dog run over in the street or shot dead by a neighbor.


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## Grazer (May 25, 2012)

I have to agree with Secuno, some Great Pyr's are real escape artists and just love to roam.
LGD breeds although huge in general are also often very athletic because for centuries only the toughest ones could keep up with herds on mountains, hills, steps etc year in and year out.
It's surprising just how athletic some of these huge LGD's are.
Now certain types of fences are more difficult to escape from than others, but if I were OP I'd say better safe than sorry and get a 6 ft fence.
Unless of course  the OP chooses to go with an Australian cattle dog as both a herding dog & a deterrent for foxes and other smaller predators.

Btw Southdown, if you do go for a dog and not a donkey or a llama (since donkey's and llama's in general won't chase away the small predators like hawks, owls, possums, racoons etc), then your safest bet is to get a puppy from parents that are actively & successfully guarding poultry. So puppies who have been around poultry from birth. You should get them when they're around 10 weeks and these puppies will be least likely to chase chicken.
And as I said in other threads, as long as you only allow your new puppy to interact with livestock when supervised, correct it when it starts chasing poultry and cats, you should get a fine guardian when the puppy matures (which takes about 2 years).
I also think that Great Pyr's are the most gentle from all LGD breeds. If you socialize it with people from early on, they should not become biters. But I personally would still let my guests know not to enter the property on their own and things should be fine.


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## Mzyla (May 25, 2012)

They not only jump the fences....They won't hesitate to jump down from 1 story building, when they feel urgent need. My did it - through the window, when he sensed predator.He wasn't waiting for me to open a door for him.
By the way, that was about 7 feet down.


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## Southdown (May 25, 2012)

We have 40 acres, but they would only be guarding 7 acres.  We have electric fence and two gates surrounding the 7 acres.  We get red fox, skunks, opossums, and muskrats.  I've never seen coyotes, but I hear them.  And the neighbor's black labs have wandered over before.  I still worry about the liability of a large dog biting people, which is why the smaller cattle dog is maybe more appealing.  I'm not sure I have enough time to thoroughly train a dog, truthfully.  A gr. pyr. would need a ton of training to be safe around humans.  Maybe I should invest in a hardwire fence instead of electric.  

That picture is hilarious!


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## Mzyla (May 25, 2012)

_>>A gr. pyr. would need a ton of training to be safe around humans.<<_

Great Pyrenees are the most human friendly dogs! Who ever told you that they would bite people?
Unless particular pup is specifically trained to be vicious to people-the way like these fight-pit bulls are trained.
GP have very loving nature. They will bark on visitors, but they won't bite them!
Maybe, when somebody try to hit them, then they may bite.
If pop is socialized properly from early weeks of his life, then you would have no problems later.

You say that you have no time to train LGD. In most cases you don't really train them - that is only figure of speech and people's belief.
They train themselves, by observing you and the environment you create for them.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 25, 2012)

secuono said:
			
		

> Straw Hat Kikos said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know that of they really wanted to then they could. If they are in a very small space, like a kennel, then maybe they will jump. I know someone that have 5 Pyrs and contains them with only two lines of hot wire.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 25, 2012)

Mzyla said:
			
		

> _>>A gr. pyr. would need a ton of training to be safe around humans.<<_
> 
> Great Pyrenees are the most human friendly dogs! Who ever told you that they would bite people?
> Unless particular pup is specifically trained to be vicious to people-the way like these fight-pit bulls are trained.
> ...


I too have never heard of a Pyr just biting someone. Really the only time a Pyr will bite someone is if their owner is not there, which really means the other person probably shouldn't be there either. Pyrs are nice dogs and, in my mind, not a liability unless the kill a neighbor's dog.


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## Grazer (May 25, 2012)

I agree with what's been said above; Great Pyr's are the most gentle from all LGD (livestock guardian dog) breeds.
If you're going to have lots of visitors over, it's wise to socialize your puppy, but they don't need lots of training to become human friendly.
The breed is in general pretty human friendly to begin with, but like I said in my other posts I personally would always ask my guests not to enter my property unannounced and by themselves.
Just to be safe.

Also, a herding dog like Australian Cattle dog have high prey drive and they need to be trained not to go after the chicken.
So if you feel like you don't have enough time to raise a puppy, regardless of the breed, then investing in adequate fencing for your poultry might be the right thing to do. Since you don't have any large predators to worry about in your area.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 25, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> I agree with what's been said above; Great Pyr's are the most gentle from all LGD (livestock guardian dog) breeds.
> If you're going to have lots of visitors over, it's wise to socialize your puppy, but they don't need lots of training to become human friendly.
> The breed is in general pretty human friendly to begin with, but like I said in my other posts I personally would always ask my guests not to enter my property unannounced and by themselves.
> Just to be safe.
> ...


I completely agree about the Pyrs.


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## Southdown (May 25, 2012)

Well the gr. py. are certainly beautiful.  We get customers that come onto our property when we're open.  So that would be my concern.  But obviously we are home on the day we are open.  But if they're not aggressive towards humans, maybe it wouldn't be a problem after all.  They have a nice heavy coat, which would help them stay warm in MN winters.  I wondered about the cattle dogs killing the chickens.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (May 25, 2012)

Sounds to me like the Pyrs are perfect. They are OK with people if their owners are there, which you say you will be. The are great in the cold weather. My favorite dog, the Anatolian Shepherd, would be just the wrong dog. They ONLY like their owner. I think the Pyr is perfect for you. I strongly encourage andone getting any new animal to do a ton of research on the animal. It can only do you good.


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## forestrymom (Jun 19, 2012)

We have a catahoula-american bulldog cross and he is a terrific guard dog. He's about 100 pounds, kills coyotes and foxes, and is free roaming with our free range goats, chickens, and cats. Catahoula's are livestock herding dogs, and a very popular breed here as they tend to herd large groups with a wide range. He is also TERRIFIC with my 3 small children. He is wary of strange people, but I think would not have been if he had been properly socialized as a pup--we just didn't really need/want him to be particularly friendly. He is wonderful with all children, but adults get his attention. He doesn't growl, or snarl, but he does bark at them. He has never been threatening, though. I really want to get another catahoula!


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## bonbean01 (Jun 19, 2012)

Southdown...I really don't know enough to train a LGD and don't really want to deal with another dog or two on top of the two pet dogs we have now...the hardwire and three strands of electric wire on the outside for lock up at night in their paddock with shelter and a very bright light all night have been working for us.  Today someone told me our night paddock was Fort Knox...LOLOL!

I admire those LGD and the people who know how to train and handle them, but I'm not doing as well as I'd like with the pet dogs we have...so...not my thing right now.

Hope you find what works for you.


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## Southdown (Jun 19, 2012)

I can relate.  I have one great dane in the house.  He could never be trained to not kill my animals.  He is totally a house dog.  I don't think I would have enough free time to properly train an LGD, although I wish I could.  I already don't like the liability of dogs biting visitors to the farm.  We keep our great dane in the house, as his guardian instincts are strong.  We have an electric fence, which I don't much care for, but maybe some day I will replace it with hard wire fencing.  We only have one yard light (one of those that the power company puts up for you).  Maybe I will consider a llama or donkey some day.  Who knows?  I like to keep an open mind.  I think racoons are increasing in our yard at night.


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