# sciatic nerve paralysis, UPDATE. DOE IS UP.



## babsbag (Apr 26, 2011)

I had doe with a difficult kidding yesterday and I friend had to go in a pull a kid for me. The kids are fine. 

As my friend was leaving she said I needed to give an IM injection of antibiotics as a preventative. I have never done IM but I remember reading about sciatic nerve damage, but I thought that was in the back of the leg, but now I see otherwise, it is in the flank, pretty mcuh the place I chose to inject

This same doe has a history of hypocalcemia and that just complicates it all.

Shortly after I gave the shot the doe layed down and pretty much stayed there. We got her up with A LOT of work to take her to the vet. Calcium levels were low and vet started drip. After in hour we got her up and she could barely stand. We supported her weight with a sling, she drank about a gallon of water and after the water it was like a switch was flipped and she seemed fine. We let her kids nurse for a few minutes to get the colostrum and thought she was getting better.

We brought her home and she was down again when we got home, has been all night. She eats, drinks, in alert, talks to her kids, and tries to get up. Both her hind legs are just weak.

I don't know if I  hit a nerve or if it just got irritated. If that is the problem it shouldn't be both legs right?

The vet also gave her Bo-Se, (I had given it back in Dec.) and in anti inflammatory in case there was nerve damage from the delivery. I did think about the injection unitl MUCH later last night.

Does anyone have an history with sciatic nerve damage? I know it can be permanent.


----------



## helmstead (Apr 26, 2011)

I would give her some banamine - often with hard kiddings you will see some bilateral rear leg weakness from the pressure and swelling around the nerves back there.


----------



## redtailgal (Apr 26, 2011)

.............


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 26, 2011)

I would question why her system was so low in calcium to begin with, Maybe menengial  worms? can cause back leg problems and works its way up the body to complete paralysis. can not be detected in fecal. I don't remember the exact treatment, maybe someone else can tell you that, or you can find it on a search.

A shot in the back leg wouldn't do that to her. 

Can get a bottle of calcium IV fluid from vet and give it to her 50cc at a time, in several locations of 15cc per location,   then repeat in 3 hours. See if that helps her. She should respond by the second treatment, if just calcium is the problem.

I would also drench with Corn syrup, Mollasses and corn oil mixture for added energy. 

Nurti-drench is a good energy source.

Give Vit B shots twice a day.


----------



## Livinwright Farm (Apr 26, 2011)

From Tennesee Meat Goats.com 
"The producer should suspect Meningeal Deerworm disease if the goat displays neurologic signs or any problem involving the spinal cord, from leg dragging to inability to get up. The disease can be a slow progression of symptoms or can strike suddenly. Pneumonia is a common secondary problem, since the goat is down and therefore inactive. The infected goat does not seem to be in pain, other than the itching; most goats eat and drink until death occurs.

Treatment involves very high dosages of Ivomec Plus or generic equivalent. Ivermectin paste or pour-on are not effective. Ivomec Plus or generic equivalent is recommended because if snails or slugs are present, so may also be liver flukes, and Ivomec Plus will handle both conditions at the same time. Ivomec Plus should be given at a rate of 1 cc per 25 pounds bodyweight for at least seven days, followed by a double-the-cattle dosage of fenbendazole (Safeguard/ Panacur) for five days. (Jeffers carries both dewormers.) Dosing too low means that the deerworm continues to do damage. Enough medication needs to remain in the goat's system so that the blood-brain barrier can be crossed in order to kill the larvae that have already penetrated the spinal column. If the goat is down and can't get up on its own, the chance for recovery is not good. An anti-inflammatory drug like Banamine can be useful in alleviating the inflammation of nerve tissue. Dexamethozone should also be used if paralysis is present, dosing at approximately 8 cc per 100 lbs bodyweight and stepping down one cc per day. Dex should be given into the muscle (IM). If the sick goat is a pregnant doe, use the dexamethasone and let her abort, because she isn't likely to survive if she is trying to grow fetuses while fighting this disease. If the producer is concerned about using Dexamethasone and Banamine at the same time, then use the Dex and forget the Banamine. When symptoms are found in one goat, the producer should either treat the entire herd or watch everyone closely daily for symptoms and begin treatment immediately if discovered.

This treatment, if utilized early in the disease, can stop its progression but cannot undo any nerve damage. Permanent spinal damage (including curvature), weakness in the hindquarters, and/or inability to deliver kids may be the residual effect of Meningeal Deerworm infection. Once the spinal cord is damaged, treatment can only do so much and the goat will never be back to full health. Producers should let at least one month pass before becoming convinced that the animal has been successfully treated."

*PS: I strongly reccommend consulting with your vet before deciding on a plan of action.*


----------



## babsbag (Apr 26, 2011)

Luckily my goats live on dry pasture in a very dry climate so menegial worms are not likely, I just don't have the habitat for them, or the deer. In the 3 years I have lived here I have never seen deer, inspite of my orchard and garden.

We had the same problem with calcium last year but after an IV calcium drip she was a good as new. I have an awesome goat vet (she raises and shows her own) so that is helpful. I feed straight alfalfa with some grain, some beet pulp, BOSS, minerals, kelp, alflafa pellets, and sometimes goat chow. They got maybe 2 cups of this mix a day during the last 2 months of gestation. I also started her on some CMPK, but don't think I did enough soon enough. The calcium issue seems to be just her and I won't breed her again. 

I know there is the flip side idea of no alfalfa during gestation and their body will learn to metabolize its own. So maybe I should have tried that this time.

Because her levels were so low her labor was long and not much pushing. After checking on her every hour all night long I finally went out and found one leg and one ear sticking out. Her vaginal area looked like she had a grapefruit in there, of course it was the head. So I helped her get that one delivered then my friend came over and after 45 min. of nothing she went in and felt the other kid, it was breech. Then there was either a large clot or the placenta passed( the goat ate it immediately), so assuming it was the placenta she went in found the rear legs and pulled it out. She made it look easy.

I will give the banamine and do some physical therapy with her. It will keep the circulation going at least. Since the weakness is bilateral I am thinking it is not the shot I gave her. She was in labor for about 12 hours and never really pushed or had hard contractions. Maybe it was all that internal pressure.

Thanks for the ideas and for giving me some hope. As usual, it is the favorite doe.


----------



## Ariel301 (Apr 26, 2011)

If you managed to hit the sciatic nerve in the leg (which isn't that easy to do) you would only see issues in one leg. There is a sciatic nerve for each leg, and hitting one only affects the one leg. 

It may be that she needs another calcium treatment, or some damage was done internally during the kidding, causing it to be painful for her to stand.


----------



## KellyHM (Apr 26, 2011)

If she had a long labor that may contribute to her being hypocalcemic b/c she used it all up during labor, or she could have had a long labor b/c she was already hypocalcemic.  It's the age old "which came first?" question. 

If she had a difficult/traumatic labor she could also have inflamed her obturator nerves.  I realize this is for people, but it's the same no matter what species: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9173773


----------



## cmjust0 (Apr 26, 2011)

babsbag said:
			
		

> We had the same problem with calcium last year but after an IV calcium drip she was a good as new.
> ...
> I feed *straight alfalfa *with some grain, some *beet pulp*, BOSS, minerals, kelp, *alflafa pellets*, and sometimes goat chow.


I'd suspect all that dietary calcium is what's causing your problems with hypocalcemia..  I know that's counter-intuitive, but hear me out..

Hypocalcemia is low blood calcium..  Normally -- which is to say, in the absence of abnormally high dietary intake of calcium -- the body stores and mobilizes calcium from the bones on demand, according to blood calcium levels..  When blood levels get low, it jerks calcium out of the bones to balance it out...when blood calcium is adequate and the goat comes across some clover or alfalfa or something, the body puts calcium back into the bones for use later..  

Obviously, milk is very high in calcium, and if you've ever looked really closely, goats -- especially dairy breeds -- have ENORMOUS "milk veins" that feed their udders..  Makes sense, then, that when a goat begins lactating, blood calcium levels can fall very, very rapidly.

Normally, that's not such a huge problem because the goat simply begins mobilizing lots and lots of calcium from the bones in order to keep its blood calcium levels adequate.

However, when lots of dietary calcium has been fed over a long period of time, and specifically during the period of time directly before lactation, the goat's body may have basically 'forgotten' how to mobilize stored calcium..  That is to say, the metabolic processes which provide blood calcium from the bones is no longer primed and ready for action, and may not start up quickly enough to prevent blood calcium levels from falling to dangerously low levels..

I personally know someone who went through this with his herd, and the resulting loss was catastrophic..  He lost *many, many* really nice, expensive does before he finally figured out what had happened..  

What sucks is that as it was happening and he was searching for answers, he completely dismissed the idea of milk fever right off the bat based on the fact that he'd been feeding very high quality straight alfalfa..  Couldn't be milk fever with all that calcium, right?  Well...what he came to realize later was that feeding such high levels of dietary calcium in the lead-up to kidding was, indeed, priming his does for hypocalemia..



In the future, you might try cutting your does back to a lower calcium hay in the last few weeks before kidding..  Not *crappy* hay with no embodied energy (carbs, basically), or you risk ketosis...but a high quality hay with less calcium in it.  

Oh...beet pulp's also got a lot of calcium too, so you might lay off that in late gestation..

Then once they get lactating and everything seems OK, lay the alfalfa to'em.



And in the meantime...definitely treat this doe for milk fever.  Given the symptoms, feeding history, and herd history of milk fever, I'd bet diamonds to doughnuts that's what this is.

Good luck!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 26, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> babsbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've read exactly what you're saying in the past in other sources and this is something my goat vet believes to be true based on his experience with dairy cows rather than goats.  I've also heard the exact opposite, that this doesn't hold true for goats.  Nothing's ever straight forward with goats, is it? :/


----------



## babsbag (Apr 26, 2011)

Thank you for the replies. THE GOAT IS UP. She would try to stand and her hind legs would just splay. She was in our horse trailer in case we needed a quick trip to somewhere, but the floor is very slick. So we bought a stall mat and tugged and pulled and rolled it under her and she was able to get up. She stayed up for over an hour, I walked her around a bit and she nibbled on this and that. We also let her kids nurse a little. She rested for a few hours and is up again tonight so I am hopeful that the leg issue was temporary. I also gave her 30 cc of CMPK 2 x today, in addition to the calcium the vet gave her yesterday. The vet also gave her an injection of dex for inflamation. I think that maybe this was a twofold problem, low calcium and some trauma from the long delivery.

 As far as the feeding, I have heard both sides of this issue. My vet agrees with you, that I should cut the calcium. But then ask her what she feeds and the answer is straight alfalfa, as do all the other people I know that raise dairy goats around here.

This is the 2nd year she has done this to me, but last time the recovery was instantaneous after the IV, this time it was not. Last time her calcium levels didn't even register on the test, this time is was just below the normal range. I also asked my vet how common this is and mine is the only goat she has seen it in, and she sees a lot of goats. She thinks we can manage it next time, but I am not sure there will be a next time. I am fortunate enough to be able to keep her as a pet. She is my herd matriarch and I really like her. While she is easy to milk, and registered ADGA, I don't show her, she is just a hobby and I have other goats. She is 5 years old and her deliveries have been getting longer and harder each time. It just isn't worth the risk. But she would be an interesting experiment.

My other goats that eat the same are fine. So while I agree with the prognosis and the possible cause, it is just interesting that not all goats have a problem. I have a friend that keeps asking a local university to please do a study on metabolic system in goats, maybe someday they will. I think we have a lot to learn.


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 27, 2011)

We had our first prolapse this year and our first doe show signs of low calcium this year, she had a very weak labor, and we ended up pulling the kids, she just stood their swaying back and forth, It took her 3 days of calcium fluids Sub-q before she had major improvements, but ours did the weirdest thing, she wouldn't lay down, she just stood there swaying back and forth. She didn't lay down until we had 3 treatments of calcium in her, then we finally went in and saw her resting, poor thing looked exhausted, We just kept giving her the calcium Sub-Q until the entire bottle was used up. She recovered and nursed two healthy kids for 8 weeks and then when we weaned her and put her on pasture, she went down hill again and we almost lost her last week to anemia, bottle Jaw, And she is now recovering again and up eating. Poor thing. 

She is 6 years old, I think her system just isn't holding up. Like your doe, I hate to take her out of production, she has wonderful kids and is doing a great job for us, but I would be surprised if we don't see a repeat of this again, and i am very concerned how her system is going to hold-up to any parasite loads.

Good luck with your girl.  I am glad she is recovering.


----------



## cmjust0 (Apr 27, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> She recovered and nursed two healthy kids for 8 weeks and then when we weaned her and put her on pasture, *she went down hill again and we almost lost her last week to anemia, bottle Jaw*, And she is now recovering again and up eating. Poor thing.


She didn't get those worms off pasture...too early in the year for that.  She's been carrying those worms all winter.

I'd bet anything that her bottlejaw was due to a phenomenom known as the "periparturient rise"..  Around the time she kidded (which is exactly what 'periparturient' means) the load of dormant (hypobiotic) barberpole larvae she'd carried through the winter molted into adults and began sucking blood and laying eggs..  They do this in response to the doe's blood chemistry changing as they kid out..  I've read differing opinions on what chemicals the worms 'read' to know when to molt, but that's how they know..

That's why we're always always always supposed to deworm when a doe kids out..  Lots of people say to do it *the day* she kids, but I'd actually rather wait maybe a week to ensure that all the worms are molted and can actually be killed, as it's very difficult to kill a hypobiotic barberpole..

I'm not trying to be critical, mind you..  I've just spent a lot of time learning the barberpole and kinda have a real love/hate with them..  The logician in me loves how amazingly efficient and well adapted they are, while the goat producer in me really hates that they're so daggone good at killing goats.

FWIW, I've read that doses of as little as 1g of copper oxide wire particles are highly effective against barberpole worms..  I'm gonna do a little trial with a few of mine where I give them 1g of COWP every month starting probably in about a month from now, all the way through late summer/fall and see what happens..

You might try it with her..  

ETA -- I dunno whether this is the same for *elevating copper levels* or not, but in regard to killing barberpoles, the studies I've seen indicate that it doesn't matter if the goat chews the rods up or not..  And since I'm just gonna be dosing to kill barberpoles -- using the copper strictly as a dewormer, I mean -- I'm just gonna pinch a gram or so and put it in my hand with a little feed and let'em eat it.  That's easy enough..


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 27, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She was wormed atleast three times after she kidded. Normally we wouldn't worm and I know you know our history of no worming, but  since she wasn't doing well, we wormed her with equimax horse wormer at 3x the dose, also with valbazene at a fairly high rate,  atlest two different times. and our pasture has been in for a month, our area is seeing very high worm loads this spring, and cocci through the roof, cattle farmers are having a heck of a time with calves on pasture. We have first cutting hay coming off already. We had a very mild winter and a very wet spring,  We have treated all our kids 3 times now for cocci, and have switched to sulfa-dimeth, which we only normally use with heavy loads.  I talked to the feed store manager last weekend as I was purchasing more drugs for my sick goat and she said it is a really rough spring.  

But I do think your information is important for people and I always enjoy reading what you have to share.  

We did treat some of our does with copper boluses, but she is not one we have gotten done, that is on my list. 

When we found her down, we did the following on her.

day 1:We wormed her with 10cc of cydectin(this is a last resort wormer for us), 
La 200:5cc
15cc red cell/ 4oz corn syrup/4oz corn oil drenched
repeated the drench with out the red cell two more times
B complex 10cc x2

day 2 valbazene: 6cc
redcell drench
then we added a goat probiotic with yogurt/buttermilk drench
La 200
B complex 

Day 3 valbazene
red cell 6cc drench
probiotic drench
la 200
b complex

Still seemed very anemic
went and got a bottle of injectable Iron
day 4
5cc injectable iron
15cc sulfa-dimethoxine
probiotic drench twice one time with corn syrup/corn oil and one time with yogurt and buttermilk, added an egg each time
b-complex
la200

Poor thing. 
day 5 started eating
15cc sulfa-dimeth
b-complex
la200
probiotics drench

day 6 up and eating

we are finishing up 5 days of sulfa-dimeth
5 days of La 200
and will worm her again when this treatment is done in  7 days with equimax hose wormer
and another shot of iron

 She is alive and in the pen bellowing to be up with the herd, but I am not sure how she is going to handle another worm load like she just went through.  



I have been doing a lot of research on the copper and I am very impressed with what I read, We are going to start to do the herd twice a year and see if that helps us. 

Thank you so much for you time, and sharing you opinions/experience with all of us.


----------



## cmjust0 (Apr 27, 2011)

I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't wormed her..  I didn't even necessarily suspect it, considering how resistant barberpoles are to virtually all dewormers these days..  

The only thing I was trying to get across was that the origin of her worms were most likely from the load of hypobiotic worms she carried through the winter, not from pasture..  There may have been some viable larvae left on pasture if your winter was particularly mild, but the barberpole's primary method of overwintering is to go into hypobiosis in the goat and just kinda hang out till they get the go-ahead to molt into blood-sucking adults in Spring..  That's just how the worm has adapted and evolved to survive, and a single species of anything doesn't generally adapt in two different ways to survive a single threat -- they 'pick' whichever one ensures the highest rate of survival, then just get better and better at it..

Read up on the overwintering habits of barberpoles and I think you'll find that Spring pastures are relatively clean, and that pasture contamination gets worse and worse through Spring and Summer before reaching a peak in late Summer/early Fall..  That's just the life-cycle of a barberpole..

Oddly enough -- and this is one of those "wow, that's cool!" / "holy sh*t that's scary" things for me -- barberpoles in dry, hot climates go into hypobiosis during the *summer* when their larva would otherwise scorch on pasture..  So, barberpoles here in Kentucky and in Virginia are on a completely different biological clock from those in, say, West Texas.

:-S

Anyway, glad you got her back..  Might seriously consider the small copper dose thing if your chem dewormers aren't working too well..


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Apr 27, 2011)

I was actually leaning towards a spring cocci load, but I see your point, when I say this doe was anemic,  I am talking about, she went from looking okay 2 weeks ago, to looking like she was bled out. so barber pole worm does sound like a more likely culpret. 

I will get the copper in her.  

Thanks You.


----------



## currycomb (Apr 27, 2011)

where do we get this copper you are talking about dosing goats with. live in so. ill, and barberpole is here.


----------



## cmjust0 (Apr 27, 2011)

It's called Copasure calf boluses..  You can get it from jeffers livestock, valley vet, etc..  They're 12.5g pills and they're ENORMOUS, but you can break them open and dose out the little tiny copper rods by weight, as needed.


----------



## jodief100 (Apr 27, 2011)

I just attended a lecture on Herd health by Dr. Andries at KSU.  He mentioned that the copper only seems to work in goats of a certain age.  Let me look that up when I get home..........


----------

