# Can I Register my Alpines?



## misfitmorgan (Apr 15, 2016)

So im wondering if it is possible to register my alpines in ADGA as something? I"m a bit confused on all the rules still. I have one Alpine doe who i was told was registered when i got her but the seller forgot to bring her paperwork when we met....said they would mail it but i havnt gotten it yet and that was like 2 months ago so i dont think they are going to send it...all i know is her barn name is may and her registered name is Lyla. I also have no bill of sale because we didnt exchange cash i traded her a purebred ND for the purebred alpine. 

My other alpines are not registered at all that i know of but they do fit the standard for alpines quite well i believe and my buck is one of the most goregous ive seen for alpines esp around where i live i know because we have been trying to find a second buck with no luck.

So is there a way to register them with ADGA or do i have to breed several generations so i know who mom/dad/ grandma/grandpa is first? We looked into getting registered alpines but there just really are not any around us, esp anything we could afford i found one registered doe who looked poopy really that was 5hrs from us for $600. I have no idea why they wanted so much for her, she was not shown at all was a yearling, her parents were not shown...so i couldnt figure it out and i wasnt buying her.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 15, 2016)

These are the kind of registered alpines we can get....

http://nmi.craigslist.org/grd/5513958735.html

Pic 1 is alright...
pic 2 is his twin brother and the sway in his back means i dont want those genes. 
Pic 3 is alright but seems posty and his neck seems a bit small for his body.
Pic 4 is mom of pic 1/2 the udder does not have good attachments...
Pic 5 looks like her udder attachments might be better, but she is the mom of posty leg pic 3 and the mom of pic 4 bad udder and grandma of pic 1/2 sway back. 
So no i doubt i would pay $300 each to get those genes.

Am i being to harsh in my judgment? All 5 goats would be related, so all 3 bucks are related. I dont think sway back cruddy attachment posty leg kids are what im looking for. They do look like they make a lot of milk but esp pic 4 seems like the type that would need an udder sling later in life.


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## ragdollcatlady (Apr 15, 2016)

I don't "do" Alpines, my dairy goats are nigerians and nubians, so take my opinions with a grain of salt please.

I think some of the sway back look could be how #2 is standing. He isn't in a picture perfect pose. In a normal standing position, he may seem to have a better topine. I like the general appearance of #1, could have a longer neck, but overall I think he lookes OK. Also, If he were standing with his weight farther forward, he would look more balanced. If you could see them in person, you might have a better idea of confirmation. I agree that the udder of #4 looks a little saggy, but with time, it can happen. Do you know how old she is? The udder in the last pic looks OK from this one pic, one teat looks larger or that half looks more full at the moment, but it looks like a decent suspensory ligament.

If you don't like the pics enough to even go see them, that is up to you, but there are some names in the pedigrees listed in the add. Look up some of the pics online and maybe see if they will send you "pasture pics" and a few better udder pics of the girls so you decide whether or not to invest the time to check them out in person. 

Sometimes pics don't do justice for really fine animals. Sometimes pics can make a poor animal look much nicer and disguise a poor trait. 

Good luck!


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 15, 2016)

ragdollcatlady said:


> I don't "do" Alpines, my dairy goats are nigerians and nubians, so take my opinions with a grain of salt please.
> 
> I think some of the sway back look could be how #2 is standing. He isn't in a picture perfect pose. In a normal standing position, he may seem to have a better topine. I like the general appearance of #1, could have a longer neck, but overall I think he lookes OK. Also, If he were standing with his weight farther forward, he would look more balanced. If you could see them in person, you might have a better idea of confirmation. I agree that the udder of #4 looks a little saggy, but with time, it can happen. Do you know how old she is? The udder in the last pic looks OK from this one pic, one teat looks larger or that half looks more full at the moment, but it looks like a decent suspensory ligament.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info! The bucks are actually breeding age now but i am still waiting on current pictures...and pics of their kids for the ones who have kids now. In the pics i dont think pic 4 doe is very old she is the daughter of pic 5...so she could be anything from a yearling to 7+yrs though. Waiting on info back still...i found one other person a little farther away who is selling some registered alpine bucks and does waiting on info back as well because one of the "kids" from this year has markings like a La Mancha which makes me wonder if something is hiding in there. The rest of the kids look good but its hard to tell with them all fluffy lol. They also want $300-450 for kids i'm not sure what the market here is but it seems high for a kid price. I know you can pick up nice looking unregistered adult alpines for $75-150.


So this leads me to another question. Is it possible to register my doe's off spring if i had a registered buck? Or if i used registered buck semen? Or do i need to start all over and get all registered animals?


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## ragdollcatlady (Apr 15, 2016)

Sometimes you can register a goat as NOA. Native on appearance with verification from another member in the association. Then if you breed to registered, purebred bucks, you can "breed up" to "American Purebred" or basically a high percentage of that breed. This is not exactly the same as there are usually different herdbooks for "experimentals" (which your non registered/NOA goats would start out in) and "purebred/fullblood". You can go to registry websites for better definitions if this doesn't make sense to you.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 15, 2016)

I would try to get the does registered as NOA. You cannot register bucks on NOA, so you would still need a registered buck. From the ADGA rule book.

A doe of unknown pedigree may be recorded as a Native on Appearance (NOA) if the application is accompanied by a statement signed by an ADGA member, who is not a member of the applicant’s family that the doe being recorded conforms to a specific breed type. This is a standalone rule and the above rules do not apply.
Posting at the same time as @ragdollcatlady


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 15, 2016)

ragdollcatlady said:


> I don't "do" Alpines, my dairy goats are nigerians and nubians, so take my opinions with a grain of salt please.
> 
> I think some of the sway back look could be how #2 is standing. He isn't in a picture perfect pose. In a normal standing position, he may seem to have a better topine. I like the general appearance of #1, could have a longer neck, but overall I think he lookes OK. Also, If he were standing with his weight farther forward, he would look more balanced. If you could see them in person, you might have a better idea of confirmation. I agree that the udder of #4 looks a little saggy, but with time, it can happen. Do you know how old she is? The udder in the last pic looks OK from this one pic, one teat looks larger or that half looks more full at the moment, but it looks like a decent suspensory ligament.
> 
> ...



I agree, I know it is impossible to get good pics of some of my goats. They are beautiful in person but will not stand nicely for a pic 

I don't think they look like that in person, it doesn't look like they were used to wearing a halter and started pulling back- causing the sway back and posty legs. 

Definitely try to get other udders pics though.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

Ok so if we get a adga buck and find someone to check out the does we may be able to get them registered as NOA. Thank you so much for the info, well just have to find someone local who is adga....that is gonna be a feat lol.


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 16, 2016)

I would call the registry and see if you can E-mail pics. I'm not sure if you are allowed to do that, but I heard someone say you can. Might be worth a shot. 

When you sign up with ADGA you will get a book listing many ADGA members by state, you might be able to find something there.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2016)

ragdollcatlady said:


> I don't "do" Alpines, my dairy goats are nigerians and nubians, so take my opinions with a grain of salt please.
> 
> I think some of the sway back look could be how #2 is standing. He isn't in a picture perfect pose. In a normal standing position, he may seem to have a better topine. I like the general appearance of #1, could have a longer neck, but overall I think he lookes OK. Also, If he were standing with his weight farther forward, he would look more balanced. If you could see them in person, you might have a better idea of confirmation. I agree that the udder of #4 looks a little saggy, but with time, it can happen. Do you know how old she is? The udder in the last pic looks OK from this one pic, one teat looks larger or that half looks more full at the moment, but it looks like a decent suspensory ligament.
> 
> ...



X2
I agree 100 percent


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2016)

If you register NOA that gets them in the herd book
If you were to show that animal you would not show as an Alpine you would show with the recorded grades
If bred to a registered buck the off spring would then be recorded grAdes 50 percent
Next generation 75 percent 
Next is 7/8 and they would be American Alpines
First thing I would do is try to get the papers if they are registered


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 16, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> ...said they would mail it but i havnt gotten it yet and that was like 2 months ago so i dont think they are going to send it...all i know is her barn name is may and her registered name is Lyla. I also have no bill of sale because we didnt exchange cash i traded her a purebred ND for the purebred alpine.


I meant to add to this but forgot, try to get back in contact with this person. You still should have gotten a bill of sale regardless if you gave money or traded. Unless I personally knew this person, I would have walked away. Last time I purchased a goat (from someone I don't know) she said she had forgotten all about the papers, I kindly told her I'll wait for her to fetch them and that I don't like to do business unless papers OR an application is in hand. She said she'll do it online, I told her the ADGA was having issues right now and that having it on paper would be better. Took a bit, but I have the papers 

Is the doe tattooed? 

Do you have it in writing, text, or email saying that she would send the papers? You can remind her this ADGA rule...
_
XIX. RECOMMENDED TRADE PRACTICES FOR MEMBERS A.* In the absence of a written agreement between the buyer and seller, it will be considered that any goat offered for sale is registered or recorded or eligible for registration or recordation. The registration or recordation papers will be furnished by the seller and transferred to the buyer at the expense of the buyer as soon as possible after the date of sale.* B. The seller guarantees the fertility of the buck. A buck, after reaching 1 year of age, should be able to serve and settle a doe. The buyer is expected to provide reasonable care and feed. Should the buck prove to be a non-breeder, the buyer shall notify the seller within 60 days from the first time he was used for service, provided the animal was over 1 year of age at the time of service; and the buyer shall provide sufficient proof, such as a statement from a veterinarian, that said buck is sterile. The seller shall have the option of making a satisfactory exchange or refunding the money. In no case shall the seller be responsible for more than the selling price. The purchaser shall pay any shipping charges involved in the exchange. C. When a doe is brought to a buck for breeding and has not settled after the first breeding, the owner of the doe is entitled to one rebreeding in the same breeding season at no additional charge. 134 D. If the animal sold is a doe, there is no guarantee of fertility except where hermaphroditism becomes apparent when the animal reaches breeding age. E. A doe sold as “bred” is not guaranteed to be pregnant, but only to have normally accepted service from the buck. F.* Complaints will not be processed by the Association unless the animal bore an individual identifying tattoo at the time of the transaction. G. Nothing in these trade practice rules shall be construed as abridging the right of the buyer and seller to enter into a private contract. In case of a complaint, if no written contract is presented as evidence, these trade practice rules shall govern.*
_


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

The papers were forgotten and we both drove 1.5hrs to meet since we live 3hrs apart. Things got complicated because the doe i traded came back positive for CAE according to her vet but that doe we have had for 2 yrs and she has given us 3 kids..all with no signs of CAE and we tested Negative for CAE last year. Which i told her, i asked what the titters were and never got a reply back. I think maybe it is the difference between labs says negative is 1/8 or 1/16 but test results were not specifically labeled because we did a herd test on the advice of our vet instead of an individual test, i do however know she back back negative as all tests were negative but i didnt know about titters back then and i dont know if any were 1/16. We are doing each goat this year though including her mother,hopefully new negative results will get me the registration paperwork. I dunno the owner is only a 15yr old girl who has a small goat herd her parents got her, which no i did not know until we met to do the trade. Now i am wishing i had asked more questions before hand.I have not checked for a ear or tail tattoo yet but i will shortly as i need to head back out to the barn.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

No tail tattoo and her ears are black inside and out so i doubt they would ear tattoo her.Thank for all the info @Goat Whisperer and @OneFineAcre Ironically your thread about your goats and showing etc is what made me want to show my alpines. 

The offspring that would be grade 50% and grade 75% would they also show as grade does?


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> No tail tattoo and her ears are black inside and out so i doubt they would ear tattoo her.Thank for all the info @Goat Whisperer and @OneFineAcre Ironically your thread about your goats and showing etc is what made me want to show my alpines.
> 
> The offspring that would be grade 50% and grade 75% would they also show as grade does?


An alpine would have likely been tattood in  ear even if black
We use green ink
Look close
Shine a flashlight from outside of ear


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> No tail tattoo and her ears are black inside and out so i doubt they would ear tattoo her.Thank for all the info @Goat Whisperer and @OneFineAcre Ironically your thread about your goats and showing etc is what made me want to show my alpines.
> 
> The offspring that would be grade 50% and grade 75% would they also show as grade does?


Yes they would be grades too
But I've seen grades win Best in Show
Some of the best goats are grades so I wouldn't let that discourage me


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> An alpine would have likely been tattood in  ear even if black
> We use green ink
> Look close
> Shine a flashlight from outside of ear



i will try again tomorrow it is dark now...she doesnt seem to like her ears messed with much. I looked thru adga records and only found two does her age with Lyla in the name i dont think that helps me out any though lol.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 16, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> Yes they would be grades too
> But I've seen grades win Best in Show
> Some of the best goats are grades so I wouldn't let that discourage me


I didnt plan on it stopping me, i just wondered. Ive never shown so i need to look into how it works and such, hopefully go see a few shows.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2016)

misfitmorgan said:


> I didnt plan on it stopping me, i just wondered. Ive never shown so i need to look into how it works and such, hopefully go see a few shows.


That's what we did
First show we just read some general information
Muddled our way through it
Been doing it for 6 years now and learn something every year
We enjoy it
The only advice I give people is don't ever get upset if your goat finishes last
If you show you will have one finish last
And don't ever make a decision about a goat who finishes last based on one show
Particularly a junior
I've had a Jr finish last in one ring and be Grand Champ in another
If you have a milker who finishes last in 3 shows then she probably has an obvious fault but that doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't have good points too


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 16, 2016)

This is Shea
Last year we showed her in a 3 ring show
It was huge there were like 23 animals in her age group ( dry yearlings)
We did not have high expectations because she was a little fat

In the first two rings she finished in the bottom 
One ring she was next to last out of 23 animals
The 3rd ring she was GC Nigerian and best in show


 

I didn't think she was the worst goat in the world when she was at the. Back
And I surely don't think she is the best goat in the world now


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 17, 2016)

OneFineAcre said:


> View attachment 16800
> This is Shea
> Last year we showed her in a 3 ring show
> It was huge there were like 23 animals in her age group ( dry yearlings)
> ...



Thanks for the wisdom OFA.



OneFineAcre said:


> An alpine would have likely been tattood in  ear even if black
> We use green ink
> Look close
> Shine a flashlight from outside of ear



She does have a tattoo in her left ear. I cant read it though looks like it starts with an M or a W maybe..i have no experience reading ear tattoos. Im gonna pick up a small pair of the handheld trimmers at TSC tomorrow and trim the inside of her ear then wet it and see if i can get a good pic or read it better.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 18, 2016)

I was looking up year numbers for ear tattoos and i assume she has a W in her left ear meaning born in 2006 which is odd because i was told she was 6 or 7yrs old...i will try again tonight and use a flashlight to see if i can read/find a tattoo in her right ear.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 18, 2016)

Checked Lyla's ears again 
left ear is definately A1 so born in 2010 and first kid of the year.
Right didnt take well by the looks of it all i can clearly see is a C so need to get her ear trimmed and a stronger flash light.

Is there a place you can look to see what herd designations are? Like i can figure out her right ear could i look up the farm she came from?


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## Goat Whisperer (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm not aware of any online website that you can use, but I would call ADGA and see if they can come up with a name. 

With the testing issue-it sounds like they ran a CL test, not CAE.


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## misfitmorgan (Apr 19, 2016)

That would be ironic because i only asked for CAE....but i recently fired my vet for being incompetent with goats/sheep so who knows.


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