# Over protecting



## bcnewe2 (Jun 16, 2013)

I've had extensive conservations with Southern about this but I thought I might put it out here so others could comment or tell me their experiences.

Jess is my 7 month old Anatolian Shepherd. She practically came working at 4 months.  We got her because we had a fox issue and were losing chickens left and right.  She wasn't here a  few weeks and the foxes have moved on.

Within a month she was in with her sheep and had access to her chickens. I say hers because I've come to the conclusion that she "owns" everything. Including us, everything on the farm and anything live that lives here even the mean ol' border collies that won't let her play with them.  She loves everything and protects all.

So...we have one big field, it's about 15 acres give or take. Perimeter fencing is light but electric which Jess respects for now.  We are also going to hay our field so for now it is very deep with grass.  Which is I think part of the problem.

Every day the sheep are out but come in to eat in the barn yard.  It's a fenced tight small paddock that's open to the barn. On a normal day it's open to the field too. Sheep can come and go. Which they do except they used to never come in unless it was breakfast time. Then I started seeing them all the time in it laying under the overhang.  Didn't think much about it...now I realize that Jess is putting the sheep there. Just like her border collie family she goes out and herds them into the barn lot. They are not allowed out except in the general vicinity so she can see them.  I am now having to correct her and make her let them out. They aren't getting enough grazing time.  

I think she is doing this because of the long grass and she can't see all the sheep so this is her way of keeping an eye on everybody (as suggested by Southern which is spot on). As sweet as she is, this is going to have to be addressed in a firmer manner than it has been. Even the neighbor, one of our best defensives due to where they live they can see our whole place and we can't. So they call the minute they see an issue. She told me that she has taken to yelling at Jess (which she responds to immediately) but if you turn your back she's right back at putting her sheep up.

Yesterday I made her stay in the barn yard shut the gate and let the sheep out. She was mopey all day.  But she's going to have to learn the sheep get to pick where they go in the pasture.  I sure hope when the grass finally gets mowed she'll feel better about her sheep wandering.  

Any ideas??? 

I've never seen such a wonderful dog start doing her job so quickly and completely that it causes an issue. No matter, she is like a heartworm, so deep in our hearts we are forever in her debt!


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## Southern by choice (Jun 16, 2013)

Ok.. so not another opinion....   but I think you are doing the right thing. keeping her "locked up" or separated.  When will you get the field hayed?  The night time is IMO when she is MOST needed, that is when the predators are really on the prowl. Daytime most LGD's sleep alot.

Maybe Jesse wants them all up there so she can "safely" go to sleep.    Ok I know it's not really funny. :/

...and remember... if it doesn't work out.......................... well you know 

Nah, it will all work out. I think you are spot on in doing what you are doing.

I need to pm you... my Schutzhund GSD has decided she likes herding   ... she is doing great but really need some advice on a few things. She told me she didn't ever really want to be a sch. dog!


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## secuono (Jun 16, 2013)

Mow the grass. At least, mow PATHS in the grass and an open circle out in it. 
You shouldn't have so much grass like that unless you're strip grazing. 
Are you sure she is moving them, have you seen it? Mine stay in the barn nearly all the time now that it's hot. They go out to graze and come back in 10-15min later. Dog follows them, not the other way around.


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 16, 2013)

I don't blame your GSD, working stock is much more fun!
Just when I go out to lock her away I find the sheep out grazing.....darn dog is to smart for me!  
Doesn't take much and she knows.  Maybe her day locked up convinced her already.  The sheep were in this morning but not all of them, maybe they came in looking for breakfast on their own?
She stayed in all day alone yesterday.  I let her out right before dark.  The sheep didn't come in last night before I went to bed.  I hate it and love it at the same time that I can see them right out my window from the bed.  Makes for sleepless nights cause Im always peeking out there! 

If Jesse doesn't work out, I won't deserve another shot.  This dog is the smartest dog I've ever seen and I've seen a lot, don't forget I own some wicked smart border collie.  Bc's are born to listen and do.  Lgds are born to just do.  No training so to speak could teach all that is inside them,  it is like a BC, training them to use what they have in a manner that suits you.

I'm waiting to hay the fields.  I have cut paths but the sheep wander in the thick of things.  And yes I watch her bring them in.  It amazes me. The hay us taking forever because it won't quit raining long enough to cut and get it baled. Hopefully soon.


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## secuono (Jun 16, 2013)

How small are your sheep that they vanish in the grass?? Maybe she found a snake before and is trying to keep them away from the dangerous grass?


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## bj taylor (Jun 16, 2013)

I would also like to know the solution.  I do not have a lgd.  I have a young female german shepherd.  she took to the new goats instantly.  she checks them over very thoroughly one by one.  she herds them.  we can't let her stay with them unsupervised because she has run them once.  she tries to constantly drive them to a spot she has picked out in her head & then she wants them to stay there.  we're hoping she will get to the point she understands she cannot drive the goats & must let them graze as they see fit.  if she's to stay with them, her job is to keep them safe.  

for now, she can only be in their fenced area once they've been locked up for the night.


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 16, 2013)

My sheep aren't small at all. Dorpers, and dorperXkatadhin crosses.  But if you are on a dogs eye level its hard to see anything but grass.  She has spots where she can see but not real well with the grass.  Just rained some more! I can't be upset with rain considering last years drought.  

BJTaylor,
A livestock guardian dog is different than a GSD in most cases.  GSD's are considered to be a herding breed.  If you have a dog that has good instincts she's going to have a hard time learning to leave the sheep alone.  Some are better than others at learning to not work the sheep.  I can leave some of my border collies out with the sheep but only the ones that have been highly trained to work the sheep.  They know better than to do anything without me.  I have a 1 1/2 year old bc that would just keep moving them around to keep herself working. 

You need to work on teaching your girl a command that means relax and just watch the sheep, GSD's can be good at trending which means watching and being a Mobil containment system but it'd be a long time before i'd trust her not make up work for herself.

An LGD's instinct is to watch and protect the sheep.  Young ones have to be taught what isn't acceptable.  If bred nicely they already know what "to do".  

I hope I explained the difference between an LGD and a herding breed.
There are always exceptions to the rule, but I'm pretty sure my young Anatolian is gathering her sheep to protect them because it feels right to her baby instincts. I just need to figure out how to make her follow the sheep instead of leading them, which in a threatening situation is a good thing, just to much of a good thing when there is not anything threatening.

Now I'm even confused!


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 16, 2013)

my thought is that if she is trying to keep and protect the sheep in their barn is maybe she needs an elevated spot in the grazing field to watch over the area. 
Have you seen her bring in the sheep? 

Our kathadin will spent nearly the entire day in their shelter if it's raining. At the end of the day, they will complain about not enough grazing time! (yes they do have open access!) I think they don't like the rain much  especially since they are heavily shedding now.

As for the Schutzhund GSD, they will not take the role of a LGD, but why not train Herding and SchH? They are different enough that she will clearly distinguish between the two. My Briard is doing Schutzhund tracking and obedience as well as learning the ropes of herding just now.


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## bonbean01 (Jun 16, 2013)

Firstly...I don't have an LGD...and no knowledge at all...but read LGD posts because I love how awesome and smart and beautiful they are 

Still...read one of your lines in a post ... An LGD's instinct is to *watch* and protect the sheep.  She can't watch them if she can't see them...sounds like you have a pretty smart LGD!

Hope you get some haying weather soon!!!!


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## Southern by choice (Jun 17, 2013)

Briard'nSheep said:
			
		

> my thought is that if she is trying to keep and protect the sheep in their barn is maybe she needs an elevated spot in the grazing field to watch over the area.
> .
> As for the Schutzhund GSD, they will not take the role of a LGD, but why not train Herding and SchH? They are different enough that she will clearly distinguish between the two. My Briard is doing Schutzhund tracking and obedience as well as learning the ropes of herding just now.


I agree with the elevated spot, our Callie (Anatolian) will ALWAYS go to the highest spot.., often the compost pile (depending on the field she is in) so she can see everything.

My Sch GSD will never be expected to be a LGD  , we have 4 LGD's,  they do their jobs well. I will say the GSD has so bonded with our turkeys though that they like to sleep next to her and she doesn't want anything messing with her turkeys! 

We do not need a herding dog, but working the shepherd would be fun!


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## MDres (Jun 17, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> Briard'nSheep said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Anatolian is the same. She could jump onto the row of stored 6' round bales, and would lay there all day and night. We also had a fairly large pile of dirt (about four 4-axle dumptruck loads) that she would lay on top of. It just depended on what side of the pasture the "herd" was on. 

It might be a pretty easy option for the OP to plop a round bale in the middle of the pasture as a lookout post for her LGD... Maybe fence it off somehow so the sheep don't eat it but the LGD can still get to it?


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 17, 2013)

I concur with the majority and I really like the idea of giving her a round bale for a high spot.  I don't think the sheep will eat it, they have fresh green!
Thanks guys


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