# Too late in the year to breed?



## WindyIndy (Oct 24, 2016)

I had planned to keep my Great Pyrenees out (Maggie) with the sheep until she passes away, but then got to thinking that once she hits an older age she may not want to be in there when I put the ram in (I know I wouldn't!). So I thought maybe I would breed her and keep one of her pups, and then she can help to train the pup to guard the sheep. I'm not an expert on telling when a dog is in heat (I know sheep and horses ), but I think she may be now. Her bottom seems more swollen and she was licking herself. 

I just worry it's too late in the year now, I know dogs only stay pregnant for about 2 months, meaning the pups would be born late December early January. Would the puppies be warm enough if they were in my horse's stall with lots of straw? Would mama keep them warm enough? Or a added heat lamp? I could try and wait for spring/summer, but would that not be a good idea either as she would then need to guard the newly born lambs? If she had pups would that take her "away" from the sheep too much since I'm sure she wouldn't be out walking the pen as much? 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I want to do the responsible thing, I want what's best for her and the pups.


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## Green Acres Farm (Oct 24, 2016)

@Southern by choice
@babsbag
@samssimonsays 

I have not bred any dogs before, but from what I have heard and read it can be very costly and things go wrong more often than you might think, not to mention time consuming. Also, Pyrenees's are especially difficult as you want to train them even at a very young age. 

From what you have described, it sounds like your dog is in heat. How old is she?

I would be interested to learn care and medical wise how to prepare for a litter. I have a 4-year-old Schnorkie who I would _absolutely_ love a puppy from. I don't want to be one of "those" irresponsible breeders or put my dogs health in danger, so I'd like to hear what the others have to say.


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## WindyIndy (Oct 24, 2016)

I do know they can be difficult, one reason I was hoping that if it was one of her pups then maybe mama could help train it.

Ok, thanks. She's about 4-5. They didn't know her age when we got her, and the vet tech doesn't think she can be any older then 5.

I hear ya, I NEVER want to just breed to breed, I have personally seen that first hand. If I breed, there needs to be a purpose, and I won't breed unless I have the proper funds to raise a healthy litter.  I am trying to do my research too.


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## WindyIndy (Oct 24, 2016)

Here are some pictures of Maggie


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## babsbag (Oct 24, 2016)

As far as the weather, I prefer cold weather pups over messing with flies and fleas, but I don't know where you live.  She will be in heat about every 6 months and they are in heat for about 3 weeks, you breed them at about day 10. 

Here is an article that explains a lot about the heat cycle. 

http://www.thedogplace.org/Reproduction/Ovulation-timing_Gammill128.asp


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## WindyIndy (Oct 24, 2016)

I wasn't even thinking about flies! Ick. I live in Wisconsin. Is there anything "extra" I should do to make sure everyone is warm enough? 3 weeks, wow! Why breed on day 10? And how do I know how long she has been in heat already? I don't usually look at her everyday, but if I was to guess she can't be even a week along....

Thank you for that article, I'll make sure and read it.

Maggie has had pups before, and the lady said she is a very good mother. She said she's VERY protective of them when it comes to other animals. I think she said she even bit one of her sheep, one reason why I want to separate her until they are older.


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## babsbag (Oct 24, 2016)

They aren't receptive the entire time. The article explains the changes they go through and what to look for.  A heat lamp is ok if you can be sure and be safe. But don't make it too hot or the mom won't stay with the pups as she will be miserable.  Of course keeping them out of the wind and dry is the most important.


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## WindyIndy (Oct 24, 2016)

Just got done reading the article, that was very interesting, thank you for posting it.

I'm glad to know the lamp isn't necessary. I could keep her in my horse's stall, it's build in their run in shed so has very good wind coverage, with a nice thick bed of straw.   

I'll see about contacting the male's owner and set up a time to bring Maggie over. I'm excited and nervous all at the same time!


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## babsbag (Oct 24, 2016)

Puppies are the best and I wish I had kept one from my last litter. Keep us posted.


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## OneFineAcre (Oct 24, 2016)

My litter was born last of Feb 
They were born in the barn but I brought them in the house right after
They stayed in for about 3 weeks
Pearces Pasture had a litter a few weeks before mine in Indiana but she had built a stall
That she heated
It was closed in and she had an electric heater suspended from
The rafters or something to keep the space warm
Heat Lamp not a good idea


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## Baymule (Oct 24, 2016)




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## babsbag (Oct 24, 2016)

Heat lamps can be very dangerous. I did use one in Jan. in the barn but I triple tied it with wire, made sure nothing could reach the cord and worried a lot. I have a new heat lamp from Premier 1 in my coop right now for some chicks and it is a MUCH better and safer light than the old metal ones.  I also had a friend whose dog didn't want to be with the pups as she was too hot in with them and a heat lamp.  A hanging heater would be awesome, but I haven't found one in my budget yet; Sweeter Heater is the one that comes to mind.  There are some heated pads too, but I didn't want one that could get torn. I bought a heated mat for a radiant floor heater and was going to install under a sheet of plywood but never did got around to it.  The pups were on a raised wooden floor with a layer of straw under the kiddie pool they were in (hard to find a pool in Jan). More straw in the pool and then tarps hung around the area to make a 10x10 "room".  This was in a pretty open barn with lots of ventilation but with the heat lamp they did well.  It was cold that week too, but I am in CA so cold isn't cold compared to some places. 

_ During the first four days of life, the environmental temperature where the puppies are kept should be maintained at 85 -90°F (29.5-32°C). The temperature may then be gradually decreased to approximately 80°F (26.7°C) by the seventh to tenth day and to about 72°F (22.2°C) by the end of the fourth week.


It is not necessary to heat the whole room to these temperatures. Heating the area over the whelping box with the aid of a heat lamp is usually all that is necessary.

The puppies' behavior and condition gives an indication whether they are comfortable and healthy. If they are warm and content they will be quiet and gaining weight, otherwise they will be restless and crying._


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## samssimonsays (Oct 25, 2016)

https://www.premier1supplies.com/p/heat-lamp-orange-replacement-parts

This is the heat lamp I bought, regular ones scare me. I suggest (being in Minnesota myself) to have the pups in the house for the first few weeks then move them out with some sort of heating device tot he stall. In the house is much more regulated and they can chill so easy in the beginning. THen you are there to monitor her more as well. We had Collie/Great Pyrenees/Saint Bernard puppies last November and into February who stayed in the house the entire time. I will never have a winter litter again.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 25, 2016)

Before you breed ask yourself this...
Do I have homes for these pups?
Will I be able to mentor those that purchase my pups?
Do I have the time to clean up after the pups?
Do have have proper fencing to contain the pups?
Do I have the finances if my dogs needs a c-section? or goes hypo-calcemic?
Do I have the finances to vaccinate, and deworm a litter?
The stud male... How is his temperament? Structure? Health?

Bringing puppies in to the world is easy but if you breed you have an obligation for the life of the pups. At least responsible breeders do. Some push them out the door and they don't care after that. Don't be one of those breeders. That is why the rescues and shelters are filled with these dogs. Lg dogs get put down, not adopted. Many that get their first LGD's are ignorant to the raising and many pups end up shot or disregarded.
Do you have a contract for pups?


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## NH homesteader (Oct 25, 2016)

I was hoping Southern  would chime in soon! Have you checked shelters and/or breeders near you? You could probably find a pup somewhere,  like Southern said they are everywhere.  I know a lot of those dogs aren't going to be able to be trained because of their age or background but maybe you could find a pup without all the craziness of breeding!


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## babsbag (Oct 25, 2016)

I got very lucky with my first LGD pups that I bought but this last one, Mia, has been a trial since day one. She reminded me yesterday that she is still a puppy. I need another dog right now and I am scared to death to get another puppy and wishing that I had kept one from the last litter. There is something to be said about knowing the temperament of the parents and the imprinting that is done in the first few weeks. I am EXTREMELY hesitant about getting an LGD from rescue and I am not one to return a dog that doesn't work out, it is a marriage for life.

All that aside I agree 100% with what @Southern by choice said. It is almost like having children.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 25, 2016)

@Green Acres Farm you might want to start another thread, so that this thread isn't "hijacked". 

To the OP- I agree with SBC.
What are you going to do with the other pups? 
Are you able to give training advice if/when you have someone call you with having puppy problems? 
Do you know the appropriate de-worming schedule for this type of dog? 
Do you know the proper nutrition for required for welping and for the pups? Sometimes they grow to fast and have calcification on the bones, how do you avoid this?

After the other pups leave your farm, will you be willing to take them back if there is an issue? 

I am not an "anti-dog breeder" person. BUT I only support responsible breeders. 

I just saw an ad on CL for a Pyr. A sweet, great tempered dog. 
The 1st owner bought it from a breeder, but the owner passed away.
Owners sister took the dog, but didn't want to deal with her so took her to a shelter. 
Shelter adopted the dog to someone who thought they wanted her. The other dogs didn't get along well with her.

Dog is now back on Craigslist. 

Where was the breeder in this? 
Obviously the breeder didn't do anything. 

What will you do if this happens?


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## babsbag (Oct 25, 2016)

In all of the pups I have raised I have always told the buyers to contact me if there is ever a problem and I have heard from exactly ZERO buyers other than ones wanting another puppy. I am not naive enough to believe that my puppies were all perfect but I have not stayed in contact with 95% of those people so I have no idea where those dogs are. After 4 years if someone was to contact me I honestly could not take the dog back. I am not equipped to bring an adult dog onto my farm. So yes, we have a responsibility for these puppies but I don't feel that it is for the life of the dog.  JMO


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## babsbag (Oct 25, 2016)

@Green Acres Farm I have raised 9 or 10 litter of pups in 30 years and never had to have a c-section.


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## NH homesteader (Oct 25, 2016)

I think the questions were for the original poster (OP).  Although they're applicable to anyone who wants to breed dogs.


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## Goat Whisperer (Oct 25, 2016)

NH homesteader said:


> I think the questions were for the original poster (OP).  Although they're applicable to anyone who wants to breed dogs.


Exactly! Everyone has their own opinions on what they feel is right/wrong, responsible/irresponsible etc.


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## babsbag (Oct 25, 2016)

I think the questions are good and need to be asked, it isn't cheap or easy to raise puppies and not all LGDs are worthy of reproducing...(the verdict is still out on my puppy, Mia). I personally love raising puppies and always have a list of people that are looking for a puppy. 

If someone buys a pup and they have problems or it just doesn't work I would take it back AS A PUPPY. But my barn and field situation and my current dogs would not allow me to take back an adult dog, I would have no where to put it. And if it was having problems as an LGD I would have to send it to @Southern by choice for remedial training.


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## Southern by choice (Oct 25, 2016)

Personally, I think breeding your dog just to have 1 replacement dog for down the road is ... well... not logical.
The financial aspect, time aspect, responsibility for an entire litter is not worth it. 
Far better to just go to a responsible breeder than can evaluate and match the right pup for your circumstances.

I am old school. Where I came from people bred dogs to improve and had a goal. The dogs were carefully selected to be bred to accomplish x,y,z. 

As experienced as I am and as picky as I am I did not breed my last 2 German Shepherd Dogs yet they were far and above excellence. Why? Because it really was weighed as to my purpose. I could not bring a whole litter of pups into this world simply because they were awesome dogs and I wanted to keep 1 pup.
The LGD' I breed are for a specific purpose. They must meet certain criteria. Anything I do not like or see and I won't breed.

I also weigh this- if I cannot find just the right homes can I keep them? Do I have the resources to do so? 
What if you breed  a litter of LGD pups yet one or two are only ever going to be pet quality with no guardian traits? What if the do is not working out?

I will take any dog back for the life of the dog. I am very selective, if one of my dogs needs to come back I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt there are life circumstances that dictated it. Every one of our clients can call anytime for assistance for the life of the dog.
No most do not do this. But, like I said, I am old school and that is how responsible breeders did it. 

Not to discourage you but help you to look at all the pros/cons.
Puppies are wonderful and they are so enjoyable but they do grow up and their fate is somewhat in your hands.


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## Bruce (Oct 26, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Heat lamps can be very dangerous. I did use one in Jan. in the barn but I triple tied it with wire, made sure nothing could reach the cord and worried a lot. I have a new heat lamp from Premier 1 in my coop right now for some chicks and it is a MUCH better and safer light than the old metal ones.
> ---



Heat lamps are bad, do this instead!
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/956958/mama-heating-pad-in-the-brooder-picture-heavy-update

Besides being nearly impossible to start a fire, MHP heats a SMALL area using less electricity and the chicks are warmed by CONTACT with the pad, not warm air, just as they are under a hen. Chicks do NOT need an ambient temp of 95F for a week, then 90F for a week, etc. My broody raised chicks were outside in 75F max temps and spent little time during the day under mama after they were a few days old. And they benefit from a normal day/night cycle which they can't get with a heat lamp.

Now back to your regularly scheduled dog breeding discussion


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## babsbag (Oct 26, 2016)

I now have a commercial brooder (got it used) and I use a Brinsea brooder in the house for the first few days. I love that thing.  I see the mama hen out with her chicks when it is chilly so I agree that they don't need it as hot as we are led to believe.

I have 2 ducklings and 16 chicks in an open air coop so I give them a light at night... For a few more weeks. That premier lamp is the bomb, I feel totally safe with that thing.


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## Debra Cummings (Oct 27, 2016)

WindyIndy said:


> I had planned to keep my Great Pyrenees out (Maggie) with the sheep until she passes away, but then got to thinking that once she hits an older age she may not want to be in there when I put the ram in (I know I wouldn't!). So I thought maybe I would breed her and keep one of her pups, and then she can help to train the pup to guard the sheep. I'm not an expert on telling when a dog is in heat (I know sheep and horses ), but I think she may be now. Her bottom seems more swollen and she was licking herself.
> 
> I just worry it's too late in the year now, I know dogs only stay pregnant for about 2 months, meaning the pups would be born late December early January. Would the puppies be warm enough if they were in my horse's stall with lots of straw? Would mama keep them warm enough? Or a added heat lamp? I could try and wait for spring/summer, but would that not be a good idea either as she would then need to guard the newly born lambs? If she had pups would that take her "away" from the sheep too much since I'm sure she wouldn't be out walking the pen as much?
> 
> Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I want to do the responsible thing, I want what's best for her and the pups.


Please, please reconsider. Unless you plan on keeping the entire litter or have solid, experienced lgd homes for all of them, just buy a young dog from an experienced breeder who understands the genetic lines etc. A huge number of LGDs end up in shelters due to people breeding. You breed, you are responsible. And if your dog needs a c section, be prepared for huge expenses .


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## Latestarter (Oct 28, 2016)

Welcome back @Debra Cummings Nice to have you back with us!


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## WindyIndy (Oct 31, 2016)

Hi Everyone, I'm so sorry for not replying sooner. I have been terribly busy, I don't have time to answer all the questions yet, but I will say that IF i breed I think I would rather wait until it's warmer, I'm just not feeling comfortable with Jan/Feb pups, that's our coldest months


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