# Doe bred ONCE, but kindles TWICE in 6 weeks (...then does it again!)



## shanzu farms

{{PLEASE note: I have updated this thread title on 8 FEB, because the story is still unfolding. Starting with this post below, where my Doe kindled at 6 weeks overdue, to the latest post, where she has now had several miracle births. She has now, on two separate occasions, been bred, delivered, then delivered again. Bred twice: 4 full litters. Read on...and please advise?}}

All-

Novice rabbit raiser here in Kenya actually.

Bought a buck and two does (NZ, California, California mix) and the seller said the Californian (doe #1) was bred on June 7th (by another buck owned by the seller). We bought on the 13th. Followed the routine process, nest box at 29 days and waited and waited. At 35 days i figured it was phantom. Pulled the nest box out. Bred the doe #2. Shes at 33 days now, nothing. But - this morning i noticed the doe #1 (supposedly bred on 7 June) frantically pulling fur. Shes basically exactly one month overdue, so i thought she must be having another phantom pregnancy, on a kind of monthly cycle. Meanwhile, I'm watching the other doe hoping she'll start nesting (she isn't). Go to work, come home. The Californian (doe 1, remember, bred on 7 June supposedly), has a litter. We bought her on the 13th June and never ever has she been with the buck. I'm the only one that handles them (or so i think...??).

Is this possible? Or has someone been sneaking in behind my back breeding my rabbits????

Thanks for any collective knowledge on this.

Note: all three rabbits are youngish. They have all just come of age (all between 7-9 months), and this is their first time to breed.


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## shanzu farms

Oh yeah - and obviously there's no nest box in with the delivered doe. I have a kind of lean to that's always in there and she created a hay nest (with fur too) to do the trick...

Should I put a nest box in and move the kindle in there? or just leave it...?


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## shanzu farms

Just found this online for anyone else out there curious about this (i see 28 people have viewed my post today):

"Miracle births"
Cases of "miracle births" have been observed. This takes place when a doe produces young when it is absolutely certain that she has not been to the buck. Some does who will not accept the buck may already be pregnant even though they have not been with a buck. It has also been recorded that a doe that is in kit is sometimes able to retain sperm from a different covering, to produce another litter later."

Found it at: infonet-biovision DOT org/default/ct/275/livestockSpecies

Anyway, i have six squirming bunnies looking healthy. She seems a good mother and I'm just pleased to have my first ever kindling, however mysterious it came about.


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## animalmom

Six kits!  Congrats on becoming a rabbit rancher.  What did you decide to do about the nesting box?  Did you put it back in the cage and put her nest in it, or not?

Good luck with your rabbits, may your nest boxes always be full.  Keep us posted as to how the kits, the mom and you are doing.

And, welcome to BackYardHerds!


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## woodsie

Crazy! but congrats notheless! I have no idea, nothing like that has ever happened to me but very interesting. Someone was asking about retained sperm, I guess your experience proves this can and does happen. Wow!


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## Bunnylady

I haven't a whole lot of confidence in your source, shanzu farms. I didn't read their whole entry, but just scanning through it I saw several glaring errors ( for example: holding a rabbit by its ears will NOT keep it from struggling; if it_ does_ struggle, it may slip from your other hand, leaving you holding onto the rabbit_ only_ by its ears - the very thing that they tell you not to do! Another example - rabbit meat is not fat and cholesterol free. It is reputed to have the lowest fat content of domestic animals, but I believe it is impossible for the muscle of any animal to be completely fat-free.)  BTW - most people will advise you against free-feeding a pregnant doe, it's after the kits come that she needs all the extra feed. 

Personally, I have my doubts about does retaining sperm. Sperm expend a lot of energy swimming around; they generally run out of gas in a matter of a couple of days. Even with all of the extenders, etc. that are used to prepare sperm for Artificial Insemination, the window is still only a day or two once the sample has thawed out. I really doubt that a doe could provide an environment with enough "food" for sperm to keep them healthy and lively for any significant period of time at a rabbit's body temperature. (Yes, I know that chickens do it, but that's a bird. This is a mammal we are talking about).

I have heard that rabbits are capable of delayed implantation - holding fertilized eggs, and having them implant at a later date. Some may have their doubts about that, but an embryo that isn't growing doesn't use a lot of energy, so it wouldn't need a lot of feeding. 

Also, rabbits are capable of breeding through the wire. It's not really common, but if a doe is caged beside a buck, it can happen.


Lots of does don't know what a nest box is for, at least the first time out. If I have live babies in a nest outside of the nest box, I put as much of the doe's nest material in the box as I can into the box with whatever fur she pulled on top, and put the babies in the box. I then put the box in the corner where she made her nest. Some of my does have taken it from there without a hitch, some have had to be taught to get in and feed their babies. Keep an eye on the kits to make sure she's feeding them.

Congrats on live babies!


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## VickieB

Do your two does look much alike?


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## shanzu farms

Hi All -

Thanks for those encouraging comments. I'm happy to have this litter.

As for the mystery: All I can say is that 

a) they were not bred through the cage (the buck is a few feet away in a totally separate cage) 

and b) the other doe doesn't look anything like the one with kits (one is pure californian, the other has brown spots all over), and they are in separate cages.

Perhaps the source I posted below isn't great- but it was the only thing I could find on my situation. 

Thanks everyone


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## VickieB

Well, congratulations on the kits!


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## shanzu farms

Dear all - 

I realize my credibility will be questioned at this point - but it's too interesting not to post:

The same rabbit as noted above in my original post (Golding is her name, shes one of my two does, a Californian; the other doe, Cascade is a brown/spotted Californian/Flemish cross - can't mix them up) has been a wonderful mother of the 6 bunnies. They have been thoroughly enjoying the outdoor pen I made. Three days ago, she started being a bit aggressive to the litter, so I put her back in her normal cage. The next morning she delivered a kindling of eight (8)!!!! 

1) No she has not been put to the buck. (He is a NZ and has been with the CA/Flemish cross twice now, and NOTHING). 
2) the cages are separated by several feet!
3) her 'sons' from the first miracle are exactly 6 weeks old. Couldn't have done this at 2 weeks!

Note: the breeder I purchased her from told me originally that she was bred on 7 June. We bought on 13 June. Nothing happened a month later. She was more than a month overdue when the first litter of 6 came. Now more than 2 months overdue she has a second litter of 8. Please, someone tell me this type of thing has happened to them? I am going to call the original seller/breeder and tell him whichever buck of his bred Golding (the doe) on 7 June has super sperm. Survives for months and produces multiple litters. I mean REALLY?? 

Anyone....?

Swear to goodness


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## woodsie

That is quite something! It will be interesting to see what happens in future litters! Keep us posted with her, glad she is a good mom for you!


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## Bunnylady

Have I ever mentioned that I think my rabbits' motto is, "How can we drive her crazy today?!" 

Congrats on the new litter, however they got there!


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## sawfish99

Is there ANY other rabbit on the other side of wire next to Golding?  Even the other doe?

If yes, re-check the sex of that rabbit, even if you have before.

If not, I would suspect Golding is a hermaphrodite and is self-impregnating.  Sperm won't survive 2+ months.


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## frustratedearthmother

Well, how cool would that be?  You get babies and wouldn't even have to feed a buck!


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## secuono

I've seen on tv that some animals can store sperm and use when they feel right and safe about it. Might be possible with rabbits. Heck, that whole 'stimulated ovulatiors' also seems false in many domestic rabbits.


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## TherapyBunnies

I have a doe that likes to prove she is the one in charge. She had a litter at 25 days or 40-45 days after breeding. Either one is suppose to be non-viable. She raised the litter with no problems.


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## treeclimber233

I had a doe once  that had babies 6 weeks after I bred her.  She had multiple litters way past the 30-32 day limit and raised them. Mother Nature doesn't always read the rules us lowly humans go by.


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## shanzu farms

Thanks to all for these comments...I hadn't checked in a while.

In very short: definitely, no way the other doe is a 'buck'- for sure, it's obvious anatomically. Also, there is a plywood wall between them. They barely see each other. Just no way even if was a buck (and it isn't!).

Maybe she is a multisex rabbit? Hadn't thought of that. The bunnies (now 14 in total) are all very healthy, and so is she. 

The breeder (Kenyan farmer kind of famous here for breeding rabbits - i live in Kenya) said to me on the phone that he "had witnessed such happenings", but with his Chinchillas and only a couple times. He referred to the problem as: "ovulating whenever they want". But the sperm survival is really a quandary if this is the case...

Meanwhile - No luck with my (only) buck and doe #2 (Cascade). Ultimately, this project hasn't worked out technically (I just have the three rabbits): I've got two calendar skewed litters, supposedly sired by a buck i don't own back in June a week before we got them; and the buck I do own hasn't done anything with the other doe successfully, after 3 attempts. Like he doesn't find the spot, though he surely tries, and she seems to avail herself to him. So either one of those could be a dud, and I won't know until I breed my buck to the MAYBE hermaphrodite, after she recovers from two back to back litters. (I'm gonna give her a little break!)

The only rabbit I own that I know is 'fruitful' for sure is perhaps a dang hermaphrodite!!! 

It's fun anyways...


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## WhiteMountainsRanch

*I find that I have to hold the female rabbits tail over her back for the male to mount and find the mark, but only on unexperienced females, once they have a litter or two they "lift" (raising the rear end and tails) themselves.*


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## shanzu farms

Small update: same female (Golding) had one MASSIVE baby a month after the second litter. Still born, or she killed it quickly. Again, she's never been bred by me, only supposedly bred on June 7th a week before we bought her. 2 full litters and 1 stillborn giant.  

If she gives birth again, she has to be a hermaphrodite...

Yes - i keep them strictly separated from my one buck - see earlier comments for the detail. 

Meanwhile, just started dispatching the first litter of six. Ugh. Built a killboard but wasn't as easy as I had anticipated - function wise. Think I'll buy a rabbitwringer.


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## Andrei

Well, I do not know about rabbits but my queens keep the sperm alive for up to 5 yrs and they use from it all this time.
Bee Queen.


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## shanzu farms

Bred Golding (the miracle bunny) on the 1st December; didn't look like a successful attempt, BUT... month later: 8 kits. Then, whilst weaning, she fought the babies off at 4 weeks and popped out another 8 babies. Just like last time. That's 16 kits in two separate births, a month apart, having been bred ONCE. 

Come on?! Is this NORMAL / or at least NOT TERRIBLY UNUSUAL in anyone else experience? Keep in mind, the original post in this thread was reference to her FIRST breeding attempt in June. This is only her second time being bred, and she has kindled 4 times. I'm basically trying to discern if I have a freak of nature on my hands here...

My reading on rabbit hermaphrodites indicate that normally the kits are deformed. All our bunnies come out superb, so i am ruling out the hermaphrodite possibility.


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## HeatherL

I would try putting a lock on the door to guarantee that you are the only one breeding this rabbit.  I have never experienced anything like this situation and we raised hundreds of rabbits over the years.  I find it very interesting and would encourage you to let her rest between breedings and see if this is just  something this particular doe does.  She's pretty unique.


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## jhough42

Is there any chance a wild rabbit is poking around the cage?  I have heard of some does that are just so eager to be bred they will do anything to facilitate a through-the-wire breeding.  Could you put up pics of the cages?  

I also agree with HeatherL.  Is there any chance a neighbor, family member, anyone might be letting them "play" because they feel sorry that they are caged alone?  What about installing a 24-hour video to review what's going on?  This is an absolute quandary to me!  It has got to be the most bizarre thing I've ever heard of!  there is so little research done on rabbits, we really know very little about their reproductive systems, but to "store" sperm for weeks?  how bizarre!!!  I would absolutely love to have a vet thoroughly examine her, and also do a complete autopsy when she dies.  This boggles my mind.


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## shanzu farms

THANKS for your comments!

Look, i understand your skepticism! Please go back and see my earlier part of the story. I explain clearly my cages and methods. Will try to get the pics up online. But know this: I live in a walled compound in Nairobi, Kenya. No wild rabbits, no one messes with these bunnies but me! For sure. The bunnies all come out like a NZ / CF cross. (See my profile pic from the first litter. The male is NZ and the female in question is 'mostly' CF.) I have three 100% separated breeding stock (1 male 2 female). There are 3 feet of air and two blankets between the Male and the Female in question (Ms Golding). The females are separated by a piece of plywood. I have too few breeders to get confused and I keep records. 

And yes! We gave her a HUGE break between the first (two miracle) litters and this most recent breeding. She is so sweet too. A very good mother. The newest miracle wee ones are now a few days old, and are being fed very well. 

I look forward to any more comments or thoughts. But please know: a secret breeding or accidental breeding simply is not what is happening here, though it is the most 'logical' explanation.


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## shanzu farms




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## shanzu farms

Above are the images. The overworked freak of nature is the one whose showing us her behind in the cage with the nestbox. The NZ is the Male. He stays in the cage to the far left. The large NZ/CF cross outside in a separate pen is a monster female from the first litter...i am saving her to breed. She's almost 6 months now. So, then I will have a male and three females. Currently one of the females is on the chopping block, never produced. (Golding is making up for her failure!) The outdoor tractor which i built is where i put the mother and babies at about 2-3 weeks. At 4 weeks she started fighting them and thats when we removed her back to her cage and she made a nest and popped out miracle litter.


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## cwrabs

shanzu farms said:


> Above are the images. The overworked freak of nature is the one whose showing us her behind in the cage with the nestbox. The NZ is the Male. He stays in the cage to the far left. The large NZ/CF cross outside in a separate pen is a monster female from the first litter...i am saving her to breed. She's almost 6 months now. So, then I will have a male and three females. Currently one of the females is on the chopping block, never produced. (Golding is making up for her failure!) The outdoor tractor which i built is where i put the mother and babies at about 2-3 weeks. At 4 weeks she started fighting them and thats when we removed her back to her cage and she made a nest and popped out miracle litter.


In my personal opinion, why does it matter "why" all of this is going on. She's a great mother. When she fought off her last kits, you knew she was going to have more. You are learning how she does things and what's "right " for her. She's an odd one, that's for sure! Until you hear from someone "in the know" about what is really going on with her, I would just keep doing what you're doing. Have those babies for meat, breed her when needed, and watch and learn whatever you can about her. Good luck, enjoy and have fun!


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## shanzu farms

Thanks for your comments cwrabs...ultimately, you're right, it doesn't 'matter' really. Its just a major curiosity... and indeed seems very strange as no one has fed back with any info with similar experience. Will keep the story going in a few months when we breed her again. Also going to breed one of her monster sized daughters from the very first litter. Let's see how she does...


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## SA Farm

I've never experienced that, but I do wonder...I mean, she's never had more than 8 correct? So it's possible that only one ovary is producing at a time with the other side holding the fertile eggs to produce later or something to that effect? If she had more than 8 my theory is shot though 
Seriously interesting, regardless!


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## shanzu farms

Yes! This is my working theory too. And ultimately looking for someone who has experienced this just out of curiosity.  She takes sperm into both sides, fertilized one side, gives birth, stores the eggs on the other side, then releases again from the other side after a month or so when she is ready. Those eggs/sperm seem to last forever in that case, eh? Thanks for your comments. And yes, she has never had more than 8. I reported the last litter at 9, with one runt (which died) but i miscounted that day. Only 8, now down to 7 after the runt died.


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## CrookdBeak13

I was just wondering if there was any update on this Miracle Doe?


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## alsea1

That is a great producer.


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## JakeM

Okay, I hopefully have the explanation for your miracle births and why she's always late. Oh, and congrats an such a prolific doe!

Rabbits generally release only one fallopian tube's eggs at each time of conception (breeding) as the tube is where they meet the sperm. Those eggs then attach to the tube's wall and then a few days later attach to the uterus/womb itself where they grow.

What is possibly happening is that both tubes' eggs are being released and becoming fertilized. Then as one side attaches to the uterus wall, the other tube is put on a hold of some sort. Once the babies are born, the remaining tube releases the eggs into the uterus where they attach and grow. One month later here come litter number two!

As for your hermaphrodite theory, I am quite sure it is impossible for mammalian hermaphrodites to reproduce with themselves. Otherwise we would be seeing hermaphroditic people birthing clones of themselves. Only one organ works (which is where I believe we also get the 'boy stuck in a girl's body/vice versa' cases).

So, you're doe just hold already fertilized eggs within her and they grow after the first litter is born.


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## Ebers

Wow! That sounds very technical but it wd make sense


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## Rabbit Sam

shanzu farms said:


> Yes! This is my working theory too. And ultimately looking for someone who has experienced this just out of curiosity.  She takes sperm into both sides, fertilized one side, gives birth, stores the eggs on the other side, then releases again from the other side after a month or so when she is ready. Those eggs/sperm seem to last forever in that case, eh? Thanks for your comments. And yes, she has never had more than 8. I reported the last litter at 9, with one runt (which died) but i miscounted that day. Only 8, now down to 7 after the runt died.


Please continue with the REST of the story!  QUITE fascinating!


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