# Buckling Having Trouble Breathing, UPDATE PG 5



## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

The buckling I had to pull from Echo on Wednesday night is having labored breathing. He is alert, but not active and will not nurse. When in the standing position, his sides are sucked in (around his belly) and his rib cage is poked out.

I gave him Vit B complex and Vit E in some milk about a hour ago and no changes.

Any ideas on what this could be?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

Oh boy...Im sorry! Has he been coughing??? Does he have fluid in him???

Any other signs????


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

No coughing and I can't hear any type of congestion in his chest.

Heart beat seems regular.


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2011)

Pneumonia? 
Possibly he's not nursing and weak.  

Will he take a bottle?  If not, tube feed him some warm milk and bring him inside if his body temp is low (under 101 degrees).

I'd be hitting him w/ Nuflor, excanel, or draxxin NOW.

eta:  If he's got a fever, I'd give him the antibiotics.  If you can get him to nurse or tube feed him, he should improve w/ in an hour or so if he's just starving.

Good luck!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

When was the last time he ate was??????


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> When was the last time he ate was??????


An hour ago. He doesn't have a fever. I'm totally at a loss at what this could be.

He just peed as I was making him stand up and check him over again, so he's not dehydrated. 

These goats are going to be the death of me.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

Is the temp normal????  Is he below 101 as Roll asked?????

This is strange.  I personally never ran into it????  Uggghh!!  No other symtoms???  No wobble??  Strong????


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2011)

Then...I'd dissolve 2 tsp of baking soda in some mollasses or nutri drench and give him that.  Maybe 3cc of B vitamin in the butt, too.

Sorry, just too hard to be 'sure' w/out him being here...so, I'm telling you what I'd do based on what you're giving us.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Then...I'd dissolve 2 tsp of baking soda in some mollasses or nutri drench and give him that.  Maybe 3cc of B vitamin in the butt, too.
> 
> Sorry, just too hard to be 'sure' w/out him being here...so, I'm telling you what I'd do based on what you're giving us.


I agree...I was just gonna post that next..!!  Was he injured in anyway by another goat???  

Could be early signs of FKS...so baking soda asap!! Do the drench for certain.

Keep us posted...


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

I'll try the nutridench and baking soda. It may not have been the best thing, but I just gave him oxytetracycline just in case it is an infection. 

It's hard to describe what he's like because his symptoms are so vague sounding when just typed. I think I'll take a short video.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

Ok, here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnEgGelZqgM


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

I would get that drench/baking soda in him now...important!!!

If he does have FKS..you need to balance him soon!!!  Like Now...they can go in a matter of hours....


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## elevan (Feb 4, 2011)

The first thing that I notice right away is that his sides are sunken in...don't know what that means...but it definitely is not right.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

MMMMMMMMMM.....his rumen is sunken in...but that could also be from breathing so hard.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

He has some Baking Soda in him now. When I gave it to him, I could hear his stomach rumbling. 

Could this be FKS?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

I kept thinking rumen acidosis!!  But the rumble is a good thing....Is he eating on his own????  Will he drink molasses, water and baking soda from bottle or bowl????


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> I kept thinking rumen acidosis!!  But the rumble is a good thing....Is he eating on his own????  Will he drink molasses, water and baking soda from bottle or bowl????


He is swallowing, so I gave it to him with a drench gun. He sitting up now at least. Before when I put him down, he would lay flat out. Hopefully a treatment of baking soda and nutridench will do the trick. 

Thanks for the help everybody. Hopefully he'll pull out of this. Good thing I caught this quick, right?

ETA: Should I just do the baking soda mixture and not give him any milk for a while?


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 4, 2011)

Hold off on the milk for a bit yes... FKS causes the gut to stop...which sets up the perfect scenario for enterotoxemia and polio.  

Do you have C&D antitoxin???  If so give 10cc orally the 10cc SQ injection every 12 hrs.  And give him b complex to avoid goat polio and provide energy and boost appetite.

If he's willing to drink the molasses/cornsyrup and baking soda out of a bowl..thats great for you...Its much better for him to take it on his own..rather than drenching...no risk of aspiration that way!

Anemia can also cause heavy breathing...just glance at his eyelids and make sure he's good.  

But that video really didnt make me think of anemia at all...

Good luck...I hope he pulls through for you!


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2011)

I would probably give him more baking soda / nutridrench in 2 hrs.

Might let him have 4oz of milk before you go to bed.  But I'd wait as long as possible.

Don't let a goat lay on it's side, prop him up w/pillows or something if you have to....keep him on his brisket.

(Fair warning, he's apt to have a nasty case o' the poos before this is over...but that's better than sick / dead)
Also try and control his milk intake if you're bottling him.  
Don't feed him more than 6 or 8 oz every 6-8 hrs, so he has time to digest.  Mama goats do this naturally by controlling their intake....USUALLY....

Honestly, the sunk in look makes me think he's not being fed well / enough...but I just don't know.  Sorry.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I would probably give him more baking soda / nutridrench in 2 hrs.
> 
> Might let him have 4oz of milk before you go to bed.  But I'd wait as long as possible.
> 
> ...


I have him propped up on a pillow already because I just don't like to see any goat (kid or adult) laid out flat on their side. I knew that couldn't be good for a rumen, so I had already done that. Yay me for doing something right. 

I'm probably going to have to pull him from mama goat. I don't know if she will take him back, but I'll try tomorrow. For tonight, he's my youngin. My HARDHEADED youngin.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 4, 2011)

Do you have Banamine? I would get some Banamine into him. If it was a hard delivery, that might be some of the problem too.


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## helmstead (Feb 4, 2011)

This doesn't look like FKS...not one bit.  There is something terribly amiss - heart or lung and also failure to thrive (doesn't look like he's eaten much at all in his little life).

I would be getting him to a vet and having his chest xrayed.  I will honestly be surprised if he makes it.

ETA I would not give banamine, you don't want any sedation while there's an unknown cause of respiratory distress.


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2011)

OK, I had Doodle in labor earlier and didn't have time for the video...

I didn't think it sounded like FKS, either...but when in doubt, baking soda won't hurt.

I'm still thinking the poor lil feller is starved.  Maybe he's been living off of what he got from the placenta and is starting to stress / shock from starvation.

Feed him mom or vitamin D milk and see what happens....but again, don't overdue and send him into FKS.

Please keep us posted.


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2011)

Pondering the situation....could be way off....

He could look like he's nursing, and the teat be a bum teat...so he latches on, sucks....but gets nothing.  You see it and assume he's eating.  Or she could be kicking him off too soon.  

I don't know, just getting the feeling the boy's hungry.

Still hoping you get it figured out and he gets better.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 4, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Pondering the situation....could be way off....
> 
> He could look like he's nursing, and the teat be a bum teat...so he latches on, sucks....but gets nothing.  You see it and assume he's eating.  Or she could be kicking him off too soon.
> 
> ...


I read all the posts and I agree with this. Are you 100% sure this doe is milking and the teat he is drinking on is letting down milk and is functional?  At this point you should still beable to easilly squeeze out milk. If there is a bum teat you can put duct tape on it. And retrain him to drink off another teat. If she doesn't have much milk you can supplement with a bottle while her milk comes in over the next few days.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 4, 2011)

That may be the issue. She was the only one I didn't check to make sure she had milk available from both teats. :/ That will be on my to-do list first thing in the morning.

The other buckling is nursing both sides. He'll nurse one teat, then go to the other, then back again. He may be getting some out of one side, but I won't know until I check for myself.

In the meantime, I did break down and give him some more milk. At this point I don't know if he is going to make it or not. He's been a challenge since day one. 

I'm feeling down about the whole situation and I just want to cry. I just might.


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2011)

Crying is ok....giving up is not.  You're doing fine.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 4, 2011)

Just start getting some calories into him, and you might want to go out and offer a couple ounces of milk to the other buck that is still on the doe. It isn't normal for a kid to go back and forth between both teats at such a young age, it is a sign that she isn't producing enough milk. If he drinks out of the bottle it is a sure sign he isn't getting enough from mom.


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## helmstead (Feb 4, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Just start getting some calories into him, and you might want to go out and offer a couple ounces of milk to the other buck that is still on the doe. It isn't normal for a kid to go back and forth between both teats at such a young age, it is a sign that she isn't producing enough milk. If he drinks out of the bottle it is a sure sign he isn't getting enough from mom.


I agree.

And I agree with Roll...go ahead and cry, but don't give up!


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## themrslove (Feb 4, 2011)

Go ahead and cry...I'll even cry with you.  
Sometimes it makes it easier to handle if you let yourself get out all the emotions.  Then you can look at the situation more objectively.  
But I agree...little man looks hungry.  Hope after he gets some food in him he starts calming down a little.  
But either way, here is a hug for the both of you!    You are doing great!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 5, 2011)

I watched the video and have an odd question.  It appears the one side is sunk in but the other is fine.  IF that is true, you might want to consider some sort of lung issue might be at play.  I've seen that in a baby deer who had a collapsed lung and another who had a deformed lung.  I know it is a long shot but the one thing I remember was the wheezing sound they would make when they were heaving so hard trying to breathe.

I hate to mention it as it probably is not the case and might cause you undo worry but I hate not to mention it just in case...

I know it is hard, so please hang in there.  He's lucky to have you.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 5, 2011)

Wait... could this be it? 

"Meconium (muh-CO-nee-um) is the thick, sticky, tarry appearing fetal stool that is passed in following birth and sometimes for a full day after birth (and sometimes before birth). It is the digested residue of swallowed amniotic fluid, which contains fetal skin and hair cells in abundance. Passage of meconium is facilitated by the ingestion of colostrum. In general, any sort of stress to the fetus in the time shortly before delivery can cause the reflexive passage of meconium. This is of no consequence. If, however, the kid(s) is in great distress, not only will it pass meconium, but it may have deep gasping respiratory movements and pull the meconium down deep into the bronchial tubes of the lungs (*meconium aspiration syndrome *). This can cause serious problems of pneumonia and collapsed lungs (pneumothorax)."
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Goats-3480/2009/1/constipation.htm

He has some meconium stick to his fur on his leg, but it could be from the other buckling. Should I try an enemia? His belly doesn't still round and full as if he needs one, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

If it is some sort of lung issue, what do you recommend? Will he be able to get over it on his own or should I take him to a vet?


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## Roll farms (Feb 5, 2011)

I honestly have never dealt with that, so can't offer any opinion.  

Is he breathing any easier this morning?  If so, then I'd say no.  If yes...it very well could be. 

I don't think an enema is necessary at this point, I'd just keep him in, keep him fed (at least 6 oz every 6-8 hrs, 3x a day) and keep an eye on his temp.  If it goes over 103, I'd probably start him on Pen G.

If he doesn't improve, take him to the vet and ask about the meconium aspiration.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 5, 2011)

We give soapy water enemas all the time to alpaca crias. I use a 60cc syringe and use 5cc of dish soap to 55 cc of water. Then I shoot about 20-30 cc into the cria and wait for meconium to pass. If it doesn't, I give them the rest of it. I'm sure you don't need to give that much to a kid. Alpaca crias are usually around 15-20 pounds. Because we always make sure crias pass their meconium, I always make sure the goat kids pass theirs.

You don't want to quickly plunge in the enema though. Do it slowly.


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 5, 2011)

Is his momma aggressive at getting the kids up to eat?  We've had ewes be too aggressive before, pawing too hard.  We lost a lamb to that because the momma actually broke ribs.  :/


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## Roll farms (Feb 5, 2011)

Update??


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Update??


Second that....curious how the little guy is doing!!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

I too have never dealt with merconium aspiration..so I have nothing to offer there???


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 5, 2011)

I left him with a baby sitter today (my sister). She got him to drink about 1/2 of a baby bottle of milk around lunch today. His breathing has not changed, but his suckling reflex has returned. I had to get out of the house today before I went totally crazy, so I went on into work.

I'm at a cross roads. So far I have thought of  three options:
1. Try to treat him on my own to the best of my ability and hope for the best.
2. Take him to a vet. My fear is that the cost will be astronomical and that I will spend more than what he is worth. I know that sounds harsh. If that is what we decide to do, I'll probably wether him and keep him as a pet.
3. Find somebody who is willing to bottle feed him and treat him.

Any votes for any of these 3 options? Or any other ideas?


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 5, 2011)

I think you should do what you can live with.  I can tell you what we would do, but you have to be the one that has to live with the choice.  

Did you feel his mom was properly  nursing, with functional teats? 

If it was just starvation you should be seeing rapid improvement with just a couple feedings.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 5, 2011)

Sometime between 4 and 5 pm, he died.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 5, 2011)

Sorry to hear that.


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## elevan (Feb 5, 2011)

I am sorry.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Feb 5, 2011)

I promised myself I wouldn't cry. It's not working. 

I would like to thank everybody for their wonderful help. I would have been totally lost without you.


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## warthog (Feb 5, 2011)

So sorry for your loss


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## Roll farms (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm sorry.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm so very sorry to hear that.  I know loss is part of having and loving these wonderful critters but it sure is the sucky part.

Again, so sorry for your loss.  Hugs


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## helmstead (Feb 5, 2011)

so sorry for your loss


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

I am so sorry!


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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 5, 2011)




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## ksalvagno (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## Our7Wonders (Feb 5, 2011)

So very sorry for your loss.  Is the other baby doing well still?


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## mossyStone (Feb 5, 2011)

i am so very sorry...... so sorry


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## TTs Chicks (Feb 6, 2011)

so sorry - it's amazing how much we can love the little things so quickly


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 6, 2011)

Im sooo sorry for you loss!!     Thats rough!!!


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