# Adopting a Non Trainned Great Pyreneese.  How hard is this going to be



## Stubbornhillfarm (Mar 5, 2012)

My husband and I are considering adopting a 2 year old Great Pyreneese to guard our livestock.  This dog has been a family pet for someone, living indoors, without livestock.  My question is;  Will I be able to train him to live outside with our livestock and guard them and is this even fair to him at this point?  My gut says that it is their nature to be with livestock, however........ 

I look forward to hearing all of your imput as I want to do what is best all the way around.  Thanks in advance!


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## ShadyAcres (Mar 5, 2012)

For me it probably would not work.  I had a pup that came from working lines that I adopted at 3 wks old.  Very bad shape.  Stayed indoors and bottle fed for the first week them moved to a pen in the sheep pasture soon after.  She did well for a while staying with sheep and other dogs, but as a young adult decided she would rather be at the house.  She was so unhappy out in the pastures I rehomed her with a friend.  

The friend has 20 acres and Lilly loves protecting the chickens and checking out the horse pastures.  She is close to the house and does not wander far from home.  She sleeps on the porch during the day and protects the stock and flock at night.  Lilly and my friend are both happy  it was a perfect fit for both.

I have 70 acres and 9 different pastures.  I need a dog that stays in the pasture with the sheep, not at the house.  So it will depend a lot on what your needs are.

By the way, Lilly is the dog in my avatar.


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## carolinagirl (Mar 5, 2012)

I would not risk it.  GPs have been kept as pets for many years....not all of them even have much working instinct left.  Many do.....but many do not.  One that's been a house dog for 2 years may have a hard time adjusting, and may never bond with the stock.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Mar 5, 2012)

Shady Acres, your friends set up is more similar to ours.  We have 25 acres, mostly wooded.  The barn, cow pasture (using the term loosely) and the chickens are pretty close to the house.  

carolinagirl, thanks for the input.  I really want to hear both sides of the fence so to say.  One that has had time with cattle certainly would be a bonus.  

IMHO it is going to kind of be a crap shoot either way.  I spoke with the man who owns this dog and they are being very picky about who the dog goes to which is good.  He did say that he has agression issues around food with another alpha dog present.  Says that they also have a Cocker Spaniel that the GP gets agressive with sometimes with food.  I have to wonder, "how aggressive?"  He says that he has had the GP for most of the 2 years and that the Cocker Spaniel is 10 years old.  I can't imagine that if he is really aggressive, that they would have kept this situation for 2 years.  But who knows I guess.  

They say he is trained by one of those invisible fences.  Never worked with one of those.  We got our lab when he was a puppy and just trained him to stay in the yard.  Very seldom does he go far from the house.  I am really at a loss as to how to go about trainning a 2 year old to stay "home". 

Any other comments are certainly encouraged.


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## carolinagirl (Mar 5, 2012)

will they let you bring him home on a trial basis?


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## Karma (Mar 5, 2012)

Honestly I would not do it, not even counting the food aggression, making a LGD out of a house pet will be no easy feat. I would wait for a puppy out of a litter from working LGD parents or find one already trained and raised the way you want. 

Food aggression can be easily managed with house dogs as they can be fed alone or in a crate away from dogs and people and put there whenever the humans have food out. If you're expecting him to be fed in with other animals or have children in the home, I would start to worry about this though. Keep in mind children and people can be the brunt of food aggression attacks, my cousin was viciously attacked by one of our aunts dogs just for walking in the room while he was raiding their garbage can, the dog ended up being put down as it was the 3rd time he had bitten a person and attacked the boy so bad he required multiple stitches on his face and neck and he bit me 4 times though not as bad before I could restrain him. I had previously warned them and had attempted to get them to allow me to work with him to no avail as they just thought he was "being a dog". So while food aggression might not be a big thing to deal with when a dog can be secured away from other animals and people while food is present, if you think for even a single second the dog could come into contact with children and food at the same time I would not touch this dog with a 10 foot pole. I'd hazard a guess after bites caused by inappropriate handling this is likely the second most common reason for dog bites. In my experience with most dogs, most have a specific resource this behavior focuses around however it can also encompass multiple things, for example a couch or bed, bones, food bowls not even full of food, something on an owners dinner plate, a leaf they caught blowing in the wind, sometimes even the owner theirself... pretty much anything. Some dogs are specific in that their aggression around food is only directed toward other dogs though most are not and anything approaching their food be it dog, human hand/leg, or an animal getting too close is fair game. The good thing is for food based aggression it is easily desensitized in dogs however because of the nature of the work it is dangerous with such large dogs and the potential for bites. A good dog trainer can probably sort through this problem in a few sessions and set you up with suggestions on how to manage it in the mean time. I really don't mean to scare you with this as like I just said this is a fixable problem though one that is also serious and dangerous until it is fixed and you should fully understand the extent of the problem before bringing him home.


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## ShadyAcres (Mar 5, 2012)

I think the term food aggressive can be on several levels.  All of my LGDs have some form of food aggression.  They will not allow another dog - or sheep - near their bowl.  A human is different.  A friends grandson, now 3, comes here often and has been all over the dogs and the only worry we have had is by him accidentally being knocked down by their size.  I have had my hands in their bowl, on their mouth, etc. when eating and they have never shown the slightest aggression towards me or any other human.  They have however growled when a stranger comes near the fence and I am not there.  

Stubbornhill, what kind of fences do you have?  Pyrenees are notorious for wandering if they can.  I used to work a bit with the local animal shelter and they have picked up some that were quite far from home.  Despite all the sheep we have mine have taken off on occasion, one used to disappear for days.  We have worked hard to maintain dog proof fences, but when one wants out it can be difficult to contain.  

Even getting a puppy from known working bloodlines can be a gamble, plus it takes forever for them to grow up.  But your chances of him becoming the dog you want and need are greater.  Taking in a dog with habits that you may not want is a greater risk, but there is a small chance that he may be the dog for you.  If you decide that that is a risk you want to take, I would only do so on a trial basis.  If the owner is picky about where he rehomes the dog, he should understand.

Whichever way you decide to go, I wish you the best of luck!


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## Mzyla (Mar 5, 2012)

Your only advantage is that the playfulness of puppyhood is already gone. Some say that two years old dogs are still trainable. 
Consequently, the dog focus should be directed on training, not on playing.
Hopefully this dog retained some of the instinct of guarding.

If you get a puppy, you need to train him and supervise him up to one year.
It will be same effort with two years old.
Previous posters pretty much covered every pros and cons. 
Choice is up to you and I wish you best of luck!

That food aggression is somewhat bothersome to me. 
If it is mild aggressiveness, youll be fine. I guess you need to see it for yourself.
Having this dog on trial basis is great idea!

My Karakachan was simply giving low growl if something/somebody was nearing his bowl. 
It took me couple of months of assuring her that nobody would take her food. 
Now I can pet her while she is eating. She is still giving warning bark to other animals. 
I consider this to be mild case. Ask the owner what is the level of this aggressiveness.

Lastly - why is he giving this dog(s) away?


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Mar 6, 2012)

I'll try to hit all of the questions as I truly do appreciate all of your input.

The suggestion from many of a *trial basis*.  They are being very picky, doing interviews of potential new owners, etc.  (who knows, we might not even make the list!)    So they may go for that if it comes down to it.  

*Why are they getting rid of the dog?*  I spoke with the man and he says that they are moving and renting a smaller place.  One that will not be appropriate for such a large dog.  They currently live in a city and have him trained with an invisible fence.  However, I can only imagine that his yard is no more than a 1/4 acre if that.  This would be a draw back to the "trail basis" perhaps.  I don't know how soon they are moving or how far away.  They are taking their Cocker with them.  

As far as *fences* goes all we have currently is a 2 strand electric fence to keep the cows in.  Our Black Lab stays inside when we are not home and when we are home, he just stays around the house because he likes to be where ever we are.  The fencing is a unknown for me at this time and certainly something to consider.  We can't afford to fence in 25 acres, nor would I want to really.  His current owner says that he has taken off a few times in the 2 years and that they didn't find him when they went looking, but by the time they got back home, he was there waiting for them.  Until he is trainned to "stay home"  I am not really sure what to do.  They say he is crate trainned.  I suppose he could stay in a crate all day outside.  But that seems like a bit too much for me.  

In regards to the *food agression*, I will have to ask some more specific questions if we do happen to make the cut for interviews.  Is is only towards animals? Towards people?  All food?  Just in his bowl?  etc.  They have two children and another dog, so I am hoping that it is a minimal case and the owner is just being as upfront as he can be.  

Their comments say that he is super smart and has been trainned to run along-side a bicycle, that he is great when they take him to PetSmart, etc with other animals and that he would be a good candidate for a "helper" dog.  (forgot the terminology that they used, but you get my point I'm sure)  So who knows!  

But thank you all so much for your guidance.  I will let you know what the end result is.  And until then, I'll keep looking!


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## carolinagirl (Mar 6, 2012)

two strands of hot wire probably is not going to keep him in.  Their heavy coat acts as an insulator while they scoot under the lowest wire.  And they have a great desire to roam too, so it may not work.  You can't really train them to stay home....it's deeply ingrained in their DNA to roam. I guess it all depends on how determined he is to get out.


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Mar 6, 2012)

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> two strands of hot wire probably is not going to keep him in.  Their heavy coat acts as an insulator while they scoot under the lowest wire.  And they have a great desire to roam too, so it may not work.  *You can't really train them to stay home....it's deeply ingrained in their DNA to roam.* I guess it all depends on how determined he is to get out.


So how do people keep them?  PS  I'm not being wise, I really want to know how people keep them on their property guarding their livestock.  I figured the two strands would not keep it in or out as our black lab knows the timing and scoots under without getting zapped.  What kind of fencing would one need?


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## carolinagirl (Mar 6, 2012)

Woven wire with hot wire on top is what most people use.  Multiple strands of electric....like a high tensile fence suitable for goats and sheep would keep him in, but fencing for cattle is not going to be enough .  Labs have short hair and are a lot more trainable than the LGD breeds.  LGD breeds are not easy to train.  They kind of do their own thing.....they think for themselves.  If he decides he needs to go check something out, that two strands of hot wire is not likely to stop him. These breeds have spent hundreds or thousands of years roaming large areas with their stock so roaming is something that they just do.


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## Remuda1 (Mar 6, 2012)

Stubbornhillfarm said:
			
		

> carolinagirl said:
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4X4 woven wire with gaucho (barbed) wire on top AND bottom. GPs are excellent diggers. Even with the fencing that I have, I check the fence line regularly to monitor the holes they've dug. Also, while it does take 18-24 months for a GP pup to mature, mine started guarding behaviors at about 3-4 months. 

I think if you brought his dog home, he would either a) never be inclined to leave the porch/house b) take off and never be seen again. From what you've said, this dog has only bonded with people and never animals. I think it would be a bit unfair/confusing to the dog to ask him to become an LGD at this point. Unless you could keep him confined with only the livestock you wish him to guard as company (in a fairly small enclosure for a while in order to see if he even WILL bond with them) I don't see how he would have any clue as to what he was supposed to do for you.  I don't mean to sound snarky, I just think this guy prolly needs to go to a home that's similar to what he has now. 

If you do go with a pup, I would recommend finding someone that keeps the pups with the working parents until they are 3-6 months old. Those parents are VERY good teachers and the best thing is that they are out there all day with the pups teaching them. I couldn't (and wouldn't want to) be out there all day shaping a puppy. If the pups decide that the livestock would be fun to "play" with, mommy and daddy are quick to tell them different. Just my .02, best of luck with it. You'll love the dog(s) no matter what you decide to do


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Mar 7, 2012)

Thanks to you both!  Haven't heard a word from the guy, so maybewe didn't make the cut anyway.


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## Mzyla (Mar 7, 2012)

Stubbornhillfarm-Did you received my Email?


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Mar 8, 2012)

Mzyla said:
			
		

> Stubbornhillfarm-Did you received my Email?


No Mzyla I didn't.    Just checked to be sure.  If you would like to resend it to my work, no harm done there.  Staci@autocountry.com


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