# Linebreeding



## Wehner Homestead (Jan 9, 2018)

This theoretical at this point. Diamond is due any time and is quite the producer. Since our main goal is milk production right now (without sacrificing udders and overall confirmation to stand the test of time) we are considering keeping a buckling. She's bred to a buck named, Tuck, and his sire is a buck named, Lone Ranger. Lone Ranger is also the sire of Caramel and Snowflake. 

I also have completely unrelated does that I could breed Diamond's buckling to until the time I want to try.

I have unrelated bucks to breed Diamond, Caramel, and Snowflake to also. 

The tentative plan would be to wait two full generations to cross Diamond's buck back on Caramel and Snowflake's offspring. This would give me a chance to see how his full sisters develop and some of his own offspring from other Does. 

So Diamond's buckling would be bred to his great-great neices. Do you think that is far enough to avoid "inbreeding" and the associated concerns?


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 9, 2018)

I wouldn't be too concerned about it, especially if you are keeping the kids to see how they turn out.

Is the Diamond/Tuck breeding an outcross? 
You can go at ADGAgenetics and generate planned pedigrees.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 9, 2018)

This is an example of a breeding we are doing this year.

Spring Reign X Black tie affair = 10.69%  "inbred"
Black Tie's dam is JUSTALIL GIORGIO

Reign's Sire's Dam is also JUSTALIL GIORGIO

Giorgio is a 3*M FS 91EEEE doe, so I don't mind her being the main contributor to the %

For me, it's easier to look at it on paper, so here is a link 
http://www.adgagenetics.org/PlannedPedigreePrint.aspx?SireNum=L001897699&DamNum=L001818324


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## Wehner Homestead (Jan 9, 2018)

The Diamond/Tuck breeding is an outcross. 

I definitely don't want the COI to be too high. What do you consider acceptable or is it related to how many animals contribute any inbreeding?

I need to get my farm and herd registered with ADGA so I don't just get the login screen when I try to do things.


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## Wehner Homestead (Jan 9, 2018)

Thank you for the visual link. That definitely helps!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 9, 2018)

@OneFineAcre  has done some line breeding with his goats I think... he'd be a good one to ask.


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## OneFineAcre (Jan 9, 2018)

Breeding to his great-great nieces isn't really that close
The COI will also be contingent upon other animals in the pedigree
Do Diamond and the others already have an animal on both sides of the pedigree?
I have some that have the same animal twice on the dams side  and then again on the sires side


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 9, 2018)

Wehner Homestead said:


> The Diamond/Tuck breeding is an outcross.
> 
> I definitely don't want the COI to be too high. What do you consider acceptable or is it related to how many animals contribute any inbreeding?
> 
> I need to get my farm and herd registered with ADGA so I don't just get the login screen when I try to do things.


It depends. 
It’s not so much the the actual %, it’s the animals that you are line breeding off of. 
I know some do father/daughter and I’m not a fan of it personally. When you linebreed, you are “cementing” certain traits into those kids, grandkids etc. Those traits are then harder to correct- might not be a big deal at first, but after years of breeding it can be nearly impossible to correct the issue. 

Some think outcrosses are rather silly, because you don’t know how the kids are going to turn out, but I have to disagree. 

This is from one of my old posts here on BYH: 

I know of a lamancha doe that died due to an enzyme problem that was linked to her tightly linebred pedigree @ 26% if I remember correctly. 

The highest appraising alpine doe SGCH TEMPO AQUILA LIVING FREE 95 EEEE was 4.21% linebred. 

The highest appraising Nigerian Dwarf SGCH Old Mountain Farm Swift-Leigh 93 EEEE (@ 4-03) is a complete outcross. 

Just things to keep in mind. 
I think line breeding really helps bring in consistency to a herd, however it can end up in a disaster as well.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 9, 2018)

Posting at the same time as OFA…


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2018)

I frequently breed my kids to their sire but that is where it stops.


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 17, 2018)

babsbag said:


> I frequently breed my kids to their sire but that is where it stops.


Have you ever had any problems? I only have 1 buck. This year he bred his daughter and grand-daughter. I am waiting on the kids now. They are Mini Silky's. The buck has longer hair and I am trying to get that over to the does. There is a cattle breed in England that is contained and they only survive through inbreeding. The top bull breeds all the females.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2018)

I have not had any problems. I have done this off and on for nine years.


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## Bayleaf Meadows (Feb 18, 2018)

@Wehner Homestead - You don't need to be a member to use the genetics site. Just go to http://www.adgagenetics.org


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 18, 2018)

I wish I had another buck, but Mini Silky's are expensive even if they aren't registered.


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 18, 2018)

MiniSilkys said:


> Have you ever had any problems? I only have 1 buck. This year he bred his daughter and grand-daughter. I am waiting on the kids now. They are Mini Silky's. The buck has longer hair and I am trying to get that over to the does. There is a cattle breed in England that is contained and they only survive through inbreeding. The top bull breeds all the females.



The granddaughter he bred
He's the dam's sire then you bred her back to her sire and then you are breeding to the grandaughter?
If so that's asking for trouble
I think most would say its ok the breed a sire back to his daughter but not then breed those daughters back to their father/grandfather


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## greybeard (Feb 18, 2018)

The old line about inbreeding vs line breeding is that if it works out, it's line breeding but if bad things happen, it's inbreeding.


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## Latestarter (Feb 18, 2018)

Maybe you can make arrangements with someone to "trade" bucks...


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## OneFineAcre (Feb 18, 2018)

MiniSilkys said:


> I wish I had another buck, but Mini Silky's are expensive even if they aren't registered.


I've never even heard of them
Why are they so expensive ?


Eta
What do you consider expensive?


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## Jesusfreak101 (Feb 18, 2018)

I been reading alot about breeding and most that I seen say not to breed a daughter to her sire. I have only one buck and we kinda have him and our does a spoiled pets/for milk and meat reasons but I do want more does without having to purchase all the others or another buck (we have small children and our buck is very docile even in a rut) so could I breed him to his daughters if so I am ok with that and sale or use the kids for meat. I just want to cause severe health problems for the kids.


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## Latestarter (Feb 18, 2018)

Many folks breed father to daughter, not as common but also done is mother to son. The problem is when you breed father to daughter, then father to grand daughter, etc. etc. The more generations you line breed, the closer it comes to inbreeding. That of course brings problems. I've always heard it's not a good thing to breed siblings. I guess because they technically have virtually the same genetics... both came from the same sire/dam. Second generation line breeding is less of an issue if you are breeding for terminal animals that will never be sold, will be eaten.


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## Goat Whisperer (Feb 18, 2018)

You can do some inbreeding without any defective kids. If you are breeding just to have kids or freshen does it’s not a big deal. 

If you are a breeder who is working on a breeding program to help further your animals (conformation, milk production etc) you need to look harder and really evaluate your animals. I’ve seen a big trend with linebreeding, folks thinking they will get an amazing animal, yet cannot find a fault on any of their animals. 
If you cannot evaluate the stock you have now, linebreeding probably isn’t for you. 

Meat animals are different than dairy animals. 

Don’t know much about the mini silky’s but they seemed rather common years ago. Don’t see or hear as much about them now.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Feb 18, 2018)

We mostly need the milk, my son is allergic to cow milk the protein make up makes him sick. He does great with goat. So all the milk we can get would be great between milk, dairy products we could use it and the meat would be great as well. My girls have great confirmation but are not show quality their ears don't lay flat(Nubians) I got them cheaper because of the ears the breeder only kept show quality and would sale the shows for 500+ these two where 200 a piece. Which for just needing milk I was sgreat with. Goats milk is expensive 16 a gallon we go through alot with a 4 year old and 2 year old. That is great to know I can keep the daughters it makes it easier on us then have to constantly finding stock.


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 18, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> The granddaughter he bred
> He's the dam's sire then you bred her back to her sire and then you are breeding to the grandaughter?
> If so that's asking for trouble
> I think most would say its ok the breed a sire back to his daughter but not then breed those daughters back to their father/grandfather


I don't think so. It will only become a problem if the offspring get two of the same gene that will cause a problem and that can happen even if they are not related. My first dam was my current buck's aunt. With this buck I have only lost one kid but that was because she got fluid in her lungs before the sack broke. I have a book on goat health care that tells about inbreeding. It tells of a breed of cattle called Chillingham cattle in England that is isolated to a 300 acre park where there is a King bull that sires all calves throughout his reign until he is over thrown. The cattle have thrived for 700 years. The only ones that pass on their traits are the strongest and only the best traits are passed on.


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 18, 2018)

OneFineAcre said:


> I've never even heard of them
> Why are they so expensive ?


They are breed for their looks. Long silky hair. Think of the canine silky terrier. They range anywhere from $600 to $1500 each. This is a picture of the top goat of 2012 from https://msfgaregistry.org. 





Isn't he something?


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 18, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> Many folks breed father to daughter, not as common but also done is mother to son. The problem is when you breed father to daughter, then father to grand daughter, etc. etc. The more generations you line breed, the closer it comes to inbreeding. That of course brings problems. I've always heard it's not a good thing to breed siblings. I guess because they technically have virtually the same genetics... both came from the same sire/dam. Second generation line breeding is less of an issue if you are breeding for terminal animals that will never be sold, will be eaten.


I don't do mother-son or brother-sister.


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 18, 2018)

Jesusfreak101 said:


> We mostly need the milk, my son is allergic to cow milk the protein make up makes him sick. He does great with goat. So all the milk we can get would be great between milk, dairy products we could use it and the meat would be great as well. My girls have great confirmation but are not show quality their ears don't lay flat(Nubians) I got them cheaper because of the ears the breeder only kept show quality and would sale the shows for 500+ these two where 200 a piece. Which for just needing milk I was sgreat with. Goats milk is expensive 16 a gallon we go through alot with a 4 year old and 2 year old. That is great to know I can keep the daughters it makes it easier on us then have to constantly finding stock.


I want to try goat milk myself. What do you do to it?


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## greybeard (Feb 18, 2018)

Cattle...
Breeding siblings together should not be a big problem if you are simply selling calves for beef.  And for building a herd, the % genetic influence any ONE animal passes to subsequent offspring is the single most  important thing to watch for.
Breeding daughter back to sire is not uncommon either, but 'grandaughter' back to sire is where it gets iffy. You're now in the 75% genetic influence from the same sire.
But, Line breeding can be a very efficient way of developing and keeping a great CONSISTENT line, but getting there and staying there will require much better culling practices than using more outside sires.

I know of 2 different lines of cattle that have never had an outside sire brought in for generations. One, (Lentz) not outcrossed since the 1870s, and another, The Wye herd of  Univ of Maryland has seen no new genetics since 1957.

(the J. Lentz herd, came straigt linebred from Anxiety 4th, the Hereford bull that broke the mold)


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## Jesusfreak101 (Feb 19, 2018)

MiniSilkys said:


> I want to try goat milk myself. What do you do to it?


You can pasteurize it. When we first tried it we tried it raw it was delicious. I most likely will end up pasteurizing what we drink since I have a new born as well. But you don't have to pasteurize it as long or as hot as commercial sales does to get it into the store. I believe it's 150°f for 15 minutes the cool as fast as possible. Compared the the commercial of 300°f for 30 minutes or something to that effect.


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## greybeard (Feb 19, 2018)

> Compared the the commercial of 300°f for 30 minutes or something to that effect.



Not that high, and not that long.
The higher the temp, the shorter the time. HTST
Even Ultra pasteurization is in in seconds, not minutes.

 



 

http://www.idfa.org/news-views/media-kits/milk/pasteurization


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## Jesusfreak101 (Feb 19, 2018)

Mmm I read that basised of cows milk awhile back its been awhile since I read about pasteurizing. I am still debating on it. But I am not suppose to have raw milk right now and I can't remember if I can while breastfeeding and anyways I mostly likely will because of the kids even through they did fine with the raw as well.


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## greybeard (Feb 19, 2018)

Some interesting perspective......from the 1940s.

https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT87201773/PDF

I suppose that most home users would use a vat method rather than continuous flow method and the required temp would be higher and the time much longer but I was just addressing the stated commercial time of 30 min @ 300 deg F.  300F is pretty hi for any milk product


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## Jesusfreak101 (Feb 19, 2018)

It is interesting I just debate because most of the methods include a double boiler system and I don't really have anything that will work with that.


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## MiniSilkys (Feb 19, 2018)

Chillingham Cattle in England have not had any outsiders in 700 years. I have Mini Silky goats that are breed for their looks.


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## Georgia Girl (Jun 13, 2019)

greybeard said:


> The old line about inbreeding vs line breeding is that if it works out, it's line breeding but if bad things happen, it's inbreeding.


Could you bred a doe to a buck and they both have the same father but different mothers?


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## goatboy1973 (Aug 26, 2019)

A geneticist once told me, "It is only inbreeding if linebreeding doesn't work". LOL! Seriously, a great great relative is not really that close. I would breed this mating but then breed those offspring to a completely unrelated buck. The higher the inbreeding coefficient, the greater the chances for decreased fertility in resulting offspring.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 26, 2019)

I borrowed this buck this year specifically for these 2 line breedings.

Breeding him to his grand dam and aunt.


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## OneFineAcre (Aug 27, 2019)

goatboy1973 said:


> The higher the inbreeding coefficient, the greater the chances for decreased fertility in resulting offspring.



Where are you getting that from?


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