# NEW TO THIS



## AndersonFamilyFarm (Sep 13, 2012)

I was wondering if anyone could give me tips on how to train an LGD 

Great Pyrenees or a labrador retriever (i have a lab)


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## Stubbornhillfarm (Sep 14, 2012)

I would suggest reading every post in the Livestock Guardian section here.  There is a great deal of information and you will be able to learn what traits are neccessary for a true Livestock Guardian vs a Guard Dog vs a Family Guardian Dog.  You will learn about successes and failures and you will most likely learn that a lot of research is needed before you jump in and get a LGD.


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## Roll farms (Sep 14, 2012)

A labrador will never truly be a Livestock Guardian Dog.   They may be 'safe' around your animals (or may not, being bird dogs) and love your family, but they aren't genetically hard-wired to bond to / stay with your animals, which is what a true LGD does.

There's little 'training' involved.  You just have to show them what is / is not acceptable (by correcting bad behavior and rewarding good behavior) and wait for them to grow up.  ANY dog is a puppy for 18-24 mos and should be treated as such.  NO LGD under 12 mos (and some take the whole 24) is 'safe' around young animals.  

LGD.org has oodles of good info.

As already stated, research is key.  Don't be one of the statistics who has the dream of a perfect dog and lives a nightmare of reality with hurt / dead livestock.
When that happens, it's usually the owner, not the animal, at fault....because they didn't give the dog what it needed to succeed.


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## Beekissed (Sep 14, 2012)

I've had complete success with my Labs and Lab mix dogs for livestock guarding and bonding with the flocks.  They pretty much guard anything that I show is mine to be guarded and will nurture those animals, even in my absence.  I've had them come to the house and summon me when a lamb was being born, lick and nurture injured meat chicks, get distressed when their flocks were taken away in the truck for breeding and rehoming and also get distressed when they are processed on the homestead.  

Saying that Labs cannot or won't bond with livestock as a blanket statement is pretty much false.  I've had three that did and I can't imagine that I'm just a lucky person...all the dogs were throw away animals that others didn't want and only one came to me as a young pup and had to be trained on livestock....he was 5 mo. old when his training started.  It took 20 min. of one day and he never had to receive training again.  He's 6 yrs. old now and still nurturing and bonding with his flocks....more so now in his old age than ever.


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## Grazer (Sep 14, 2012)

Stubbornhillfarm said:
			
		

> I would suggest reading every post in the Livestock Guardian section here.  There is a great deal of information and you will be able to learn what traits are neccessary for a true Livestock Guardian vs a Guard Dog vs a Family Guardian Dog.  You will learn about successes and failures and you will most likely learn that a lot of research is needed before you jump in and get a LGD.


I completely agree with this.

And I wanted to add that I still don't understand why quite a lot of people continue to try and use non-LGD breeds as an LGD (livestockguardian dog).
We don't see anyone trying to use a pekingese (I'll use this breed as example again as I think it gets my point across) as a hunting dog or as a sled dog yet there are countless of topics on the internet about people asking how to get a random non-LGD breed to do something an LGD breed has been bred to do for hundreds if not thousands of years.

Labrador retrievers (when not just a family pet) are used for hunting, tracking, detection,  disabled-assistance, carting, and therapy work. That's what they are bred for and that's what they should be used for.
I'm yet to see a Labrador chasing off a pack of hungry wolves, a hungry bear or a mountain lion from its livestock. And although very rare, an LGD breed like say a Great Pyrenees, Kangal, Akbash, Karakachan, Sarplaninac etc sometimes have to physically fight off these large predators.
Of course it also depends on where you live and what your needs are.
There is so much more to an LGD than just throwing them in with animals they need to protect. But the main thing is that they are physically capable of doing this job and have the instinct for it.
And even then in areas with large predators, depending of the size of their flock, people need to run a pack of adult LGD's before they stop experiencing losses. 

The OP never clarified what kind of livestock he/she has and what kind of predators are in their area, but I would also suggest he/she reads all the post in the Livestock Guardian section.


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## Beekissed (Sep 14, 2012)

> And I wanted to add that I still don't understand why quite a lot of people continue to try and use non-LGD breeds


My reason was I already had them.  If you already have two big dogs that are perfectly capable of keeping the coyotes and bears off the livestock, why go out and buy more?  Doesn't make sense to go out and spend money on another big dog to feed if you have two in the back yard itching for a job to do.  I lived smack dab in the middle of coyote, bear and cat country and never had a problem in 6 years of living there and I don't think it was just because my property was just blessed or lucky.

The only livestock in my neighborhood were cattle....and my sheep and chickens.  Which do you think the big preds would come after when they were hungry?  Never had a problem, though I could hear the 'yotes howling and hunting all around.  

I still live within an active coyote area and I'm down to one lonely lab...and I STILL don't have them coming into the livestock.  Any breed can have exceptional dogs in it and mine have never fetched a thing in their lives, nor have they ever hunted a bird.  They were given a job to do and, so far, have done it just as well as the LGD  breeds I've seen...actually, better.  Most of the LGDs I've seen on my friend's and family's  farms wander off the farm and get hit on the roads and they kill any free ranged  chickens...yeah, probably a result of poor training, but at least my Labs aren't killing my livestock.  

I'll utilize what I have before I go and get more potential problems.


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## RemudaOne (Sep 14, 2012)

I used to have a black lab girl. Lucy was her name. She was a great dog, barked at night keeping the coyotes off of the farm. Even when she got older and her hearing and sight got kind of bad, there was nothing wrong with her nose and she would bark at night still. She was dedicated to her cat and puppy friends and I think she would have protected them to the death. 

But I couldn't have asked her to guard the sheep. She was scared to death of thunder and I had to bring her in during storms. I also wouldn't have asked her to stay out all winter. Much too cold for her. I appreciated the job she did for us and I miss her still but I do believe if you are looking for a livestock guardian, you are better served using a breed that is specifically bred for it. Its amazing to me at how young an age an LGD will begin doing its job, INSTINCTUALLY. They LOVE the winter here and are happiest in that kind of weather. That keeps my stress level way down not having to worry about them out there. If I don't have to worry about them, I don't have to worry about my sheep..... 

Love labs, will have another one day. RIP Lucy, good girl.


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## Beekissed (Sep 14, 2012)

I had a Lab/GP mix named Lucy too....sweetest dog alive, now gone.  Mine was snow white, though.  She stayed out all winter, like all my dogs.  Miss her like honey on homemade bread....


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## Grazer (Sep 15, 2012)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> > And I wanted to add that I still don't understand why quite a lot of people continue to try and use non-LGD breeds
> 
> 
> My reason was I already had them.  If you already have two big dogs that are perfectly capable of keeping the coyotes and bears off the livestock, why go out and buy more?  Doesn't make sense to go out and spend money on another big dog to feed if you have two in the back yard itching for a job to do.  I lived smack dab in the middle of coyote, bear and cat country and never had a problem in 6 years of living there and I don't think it was just because my property was just blessed or lucky.
> ...


So now Labradors are big dogs  An average male Lab weighs 88 pounds and an average male Kangal or a Caucasian Ovcharka (the breed we own) weighs 150-160 pounds.
Those are big dogs, Labs are not big, they are rather medium seized and there is a reason why LGD's are large. 
Besides I wasn't talking to you, my post referred to all the people who try and use random non-LGD breeds to do job of an LGD and then ask how to make it work or complain that it didn't work out.


Before this thread turns into why Labs are great dogs, I will quickly say that nobody here is bashing Labradors, they are simply not bred to be livestock guardian dogs and live throughout the whole year outside with the animals they need to guard.


Like I said, if someone would come to the hunting forum and ask how to turn their pekingese into a pig hunting dog or ask on a herding forum how to turn a bloodhound into a herding dog or better yet ask on a schutzhund training forum why their lab isn't performing well, everyone would tell that person what they're trying to do is a very bad idea.
Yet for some weird reason it's ok to try and turn breeds that are not LGD's into LGD's?
LGD puppies are not even that expensive (I see them go for 200-300 dollars all the time) and they don't eat that much compared to their size.
Raising their LGD breed pup (which when from good parents already poses all the right instincts) to be a good LGD one day is hard as it is for novices, let alone trying to do that with a random non LGD breed.

I wrote several months back on another thread that my grandma who has a lot of experience with Sarplaninac's, got a random middle sized mutt after my grandfather died because she's feels like she's too old to properly raise and control a Sarplaninac. But the biggest predators where she lives are foxes and with her experience it wasn't difficult to turn a non LGD into a decent farm dog, so in such cases it makes sense but with large predators it does not.
I wouldn't recommend a non-LGD breed to guard stock and anyone who I know wouldn't either. 

Good for you for being happy with your dogs but I don't understand why you yet again (just like in that other thread) promote Labs as LGD's when that's not what they were bred for.
And you even go so far to claim that your Labs do a better job as an LGD than the real LGD breeds. This makes me laugh, I should tell all the farmers who suffered loses from wolves, mountain lions and other predators that all they need to get is a Lab and all their problems will be solved lol
And as far as the whole roaming thing, one of our neighbor's Lab got killed by a car 2 months ago because he was roaming and another neighbor's Lab (from further afar) almost got seriously injured by our dog last week because he broke into our backyard (one of the planks got loose, we didn't even know, but it's fixed now) when my husband left his barbecued chicken on the table in the garden.
Lucky for that Lab our dog was in the house at the time, behind a sturdy door or he would have been attacked and it would have not ended well for him. 
All dogs are capable of roaming, the key is to make sure they can't (I'm talking about people living on 10-20 acres or less)

I don't want to say anything even more rude or start an argument when I clearly don't see eye to eye with you on this subject.
So I'll just agree to disagree.


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## Beekissed (Sep 15, 2012)

> LGD puppies are not even that expensive (I see them go for 200-300 dollars all the time)


And there lies the rub....anyone who thinks that 200-300 is not expensive really cannot grasp the reality of some situations in which people are living.  Some people are raising livestock on an acre or two, are raising a few sheep, goats or fowl.  To spend 300 on a dog is something that I would never do to protect  small herds of livestock.  This is called BackyardHerds for a reason....most folks here aren't raising their herds in large pastureland wherein they need Kangals of 150 lbs. each to wrangle with bears and wolves.  

Most here are in a suburban or on the bare edge of rural areas and do not require a pack of LGDs to guard the livestock but still need something out there in the night to roam, bark, deter the average coyote pack or black bear from coming in and taking a sample.  

In this economy, a lot of these people were raising goats, sheep and such for their own food supply and to try and cut food costs...which would quickly be negated by the additional purchase of a pair of LGD for $300 per.  If the dog you are buying is worth more than the food it is guarding, it hardly makes sense to try and save money on raising the food. 

When a $300 dog roams off a night when it's supposed to "bonding" with it's herd and gets killed on the road, it's a little more expensive of a loss than someone's throwaway Lab that served the same purpose but didn't cost as much.  

This elite snobbery about LGDs always amuses me.  Sure, they were bred and built for the job of LGD...but the job of guarding farms and livestock is an age old tradition carried out by many an old farm cur without the fancy name or price. They may not be as big, but they also are more versatile than are the LGD breeds...they also take care of small predators, kill rats, snakes, coons, etc. without the need for the huge frame that would be needed to take down a full grown wolves.  Where most of us live, wolves are just not a problem.  Coons and possums, coyotes..yes...wolves..no.  Getting a Kangal to guard 2 acres of land is like buying a tank to kill one or two soldiers....when light firearms will do, why bring out the big guns?  

No need to get testy and all because someone disagrees with you that ONLY LGDs can guard a flock of animals.   Out here in the real countryside we never even saw or knew about LGD breeds until the last 10 years.  I love the breeds and think they have great value and wouldn't hesitate to own one....but would never pay $300 for any dog of any kind in my lifetime.  For all the years before these lovely breeds came to America from these other lands, old farm curs like Labs, German Shepherds, hounds and cattle dogs have been doing a great job at deterring most predators that come in the average farm yard...which is what most folks have on this forum.  Small acreage and small herds of low value livestock...something even a lowly, cheap Lab dog can protect each night.


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## Bossroo (Sep 15, 2012)

I own 20 acres in Central Cal..  The surrounding parcels are also 20 acres, surrounded by 160 -5,000 acre properties.  I owned 2 very large ( 85-95 lbs of solid muscle Boxers that did a fabulous job of patrolling my property.  Then in the winter time, when the coyotes form packs of 5 - 20 +++ ,  things change rather suddenly.  What happens is one coyote baits the dog into a chase, and then have a running fight  ( nip or two) and continue the running  untill the coyote arrives at the waiting pack ... end of dog.  I lost both of mine this way.  My across the street neighbor, had a huge male 110 lb Rottweiler as his guard dog. Same scenario... MINCEMEAT!  All that he found in the back pasture was the dog's head and hide.  Another Neighbor had a Rhodesian Ridgeback. He heard lots of barking, then a running fight, ran out with his gun and into the pasture, 3 coyotes had just killed that dog.  My Uncle had a very large 5 year old male Rough Collie as his guard dog....  no more as several coyotes killed him in seconds. Another neighbor owns 7 Large Australian Shepherds.  While they do a good job of protecting the farmstead, they regularly loose one or two, as in they don't come home in the morning for breakfast.   Most Labs  ( my brother owned several )  that I have seen tend to become fat / obese after they mature... what chance would they have in a simmilar fight ?


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## Goatherd (Sep 15, 2012)

This thread is a good example of why I don't let my dogs use the computer.  Don't tell these two girls that they aren't guard dogs.  They would beg to differ with you.  Their motto is "bring it on!" 

Yes, they are a little "pudgy" but they are going to Jenny Craig when they aren't guarding the livestock!


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## Southern by choice (Sep 15, 2012)

Wow! We all really love our dogs don't we. 
As an owner of 3 LGD's (GP) co-owner of an anatolian LGD, a German Shepherd Dog (VP at nationalSeiger and started Schutzhund Training) and 1 "poor lowly" farm mutt (lab/boxer mix) I wanted to say that so far everyone on this topic has a real legitimate point!
Yes LGD people can be annoying but so can their opposers! And I say that lovingly- no malice!
LGD's are or can be a real PIT behind!! But I love em. They are stubborn pig-headed, hear a command as only a ridiculous suggestion!  The GSD awesome... will run after pray and if I give command to stop, the dog WILL stop and return immediately.
I do not need my GSD behind a fence... would never wander off or leave the property. After pulling a chicken from her mouth (we acquired her at 11 months of age) the first week we had her, she was scolded- DO NOT TOUCH THE "BABIES"- She never has since. My LGD's, still an ongoing process. But when it comes to 4-5 coyotes coming around my LGD's are perfect for the job. I don't think it is a one breed fits all, IMO. Do what works for you, honestly Lgd's are NOT for eveyone. My farm mutt has killed more coon/possum than any of them. She is also older and was trained by my old GSD. The mutt and GSD ARE people oriented, care more about their masters than anything. The LGD's are wired to bond with their charge and submit to them, it's what makes them do what they do best. The GSD and mutt will never submit to the animals.
 I get the financial part but 200-300 for a GP is not alot of money. It is when you don't have it though . If you have 50-60 goats and you lose one to a predator it is not as big of a loss as it is when you lose 1 goat and you only have 3-4. Losing a third of your stock is devastating! I've seen many LGD owners say you don't need a LGD for just a couple of acres. I respectfully disagree because the coyotes and bobcats and foxes don't know I'm not on 100 acres they just simply show up. They are no respecters of property size.
Anyway I love my LGD"S I love my GSD and I love my good ole mutt! Do what works for you. Do you already have a lab or a LGD! or were you considering one or the other? I have seen that posted yet/ or I just misread.


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## Grazer (Sep 15, 2012)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> I own 20 acres in Central Cal..  The surrounding parcels are also 20 acres, surrounded by 160 -5,000 acre properties.  I owned 2 very large ( 85-95 lbs of solid muscle Boxers that did a fabulous job of patrolling my property.  Then in the winter time, when the coyotes form packs of 5 - 20 +++ ,  things change rather suddenly.  What happens is one coyote baits the dog into a chase, and then have a running fight  ( nip or two) and continue the running  untill the coyote arrives at the waiting pack ... end of dog.  I lost both of mine this way.  My across the street neighbor, had a huge male 110 lb Rottweiler as his guard dog. Same scenario... MINCEMEAT!  All that he found in the back pasture was the dog's head and hide.  Another Neighbor had a Rhodesian Ridgeback. He heard lots of barking, then a running fight, ran out with his gun and into the pasture, 3 coyotes had just killed that dog.  My Uncle had a very large 5 year old male Rough Collie as his guard dog....  no more as several coyotes killed him in seconds. Another neighbor owns 7 Large Australian Shepherds.  While they do a good job of protecting the farmstead, they regularly loose one or two, as in they don't come home in the morning for breakfast.   Most Labs  ( my brother owned several )  that I have seen tend to become fat / obese after they mature... what chance would they have in a simmilar fight ?


Exactly my point and a lot of times stray dogs are a huge problem too and that's why I prefer LGD's who instinctively know how to deal with these threats. 



@Beekissed

I really love dogs, to me they are more than just guardians, they are also companions so I would rather save money on everything else as long as I don't have to save on our dogs.
That's why I don't see 200-300 dollars for a good (what I see as good) puppy as a grip of cash. Especially when one lives either in suburb or on the edge of a small town (like us), where 1 dog is plenty (or in our case 2 dogs).
If I can afford internet and cable tv, then surely I can afford to pay a bit of money for a dog that will both guard and be a guardian/companion both in and outside our place?
To me our dogs are worth their weight in gold because they are naturally very protective towards strangers and I know they mean business. They're also great vermin control, nothing escapes them.
Perhaps that same thing can be said about other breeds too but the reason why I value LGD's over any other breed is because all that comes natural to them, I don't have to train them, which makes me feel very safe when I'm at home or out in the woods.
So although it all comes down to personal preferences, the fact of the matter is LGD breeds are more physically capable of dealing with large predators.

That's why LGD's are now even used to prevent conflicts between people and large predators, threatened with extinction by using them as an effective prevention measure.
Like for example the Carpathian Shepherd dogs in Romania or Kangals/Anatolians in Namibia.

So like I said we don't live in a rural area either (at least for now), but I have family back in Europe that does, where I've spent most of my childhood.
In part of Europe where I'm originally from, Sarplaninac, Kuvasz, Tornjak, Karakachan etc have been used as LGD's for hundreds and hundreds of years. 
That's why to me they are not a foreign concept and maybe that's why I so greatly respect these breeds.
And that is also why I don't understand this "elite snobbery" you're talking about because where I come from LGD's have always been working side by side with hard working and usually very poor farmers. Nothing snobbery about that.
The diet of those dogs was usually bread, milk, some goat cheese and whatever they could catch themselves (rodents and birds). Which is why LGD's to this day don't require as much food and some even do better on a low protein diet (like Tornjak's for instance).
I just don't understand your prejudice towards the so called "LGD people" (whatever that may mean). And I on the other hand don't base my opinion on prejudice but base my opinion on what has worked back in the old country for centuries.


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## bonbean01 (Sep 15, 2012)

Goatherd...loved your post and photos....LOL...am glad my little poodle doesn't know how to use the computer too...he also thinks he is a guard dog for the sheep...would put up a photo of him watching them ... but screwed it up and it won't post. However first drops of rain or thunder and he is back in the house terrified..but don't tell him I said so


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## Bossroo (Sep 16, 2012)

Goatherd said:
			
		

> http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/Michael3215/P1010352.jpg
> 
> This thread is a good example of why I don't let my dogs use the computer.  Don't tell these two girls that they aren't guard dogs.  They would beg to differ with you.  Their motto is "bring it on!"
> 
> Yes, they are a little "pudgy" but they are going to Jenny Craig when they aren't guarding the livestock!


These Pugs sure are cute ( our daughter owns one, Pugsly [ in town])         and they make great watch dogs with their barking.  They surely will allert you to the presence of a predator and will let you deal with it.  However, they just don't have the size, teeth much less the stamina to deal with any coyote or racoon, etc.  as they would be mincemeat in seconds.


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## Goatherd (Sep 16, 2012)

> These Pugs sure are cute ( our daughter owns one, Pugsly [ in town])         and they make great watch dogs with their barking.  They surely will allert you to the presence of a predator and will let you deal with it.  However, they just don't have the size, teeth much less the stamina to deal with any coyote or racoon, etc.  as they would be mincemeat in seconds.


This was intended as humor.     I just posted it because this post was getting a little heated and needed a bit of levity.


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## Beekissed (Sep 16, 2012)

> I just don't understand your prejudice towards the so called "LGD people" (whatever that may mean). And I on the other hand don't base my opinion on prejudice but base my opinion on what has worked back in the old country for centuries.


  I don't have any prejudice towards LGD people...just those who insist that they are the only dogs worthy of guarding livestock.  I love LGDs!  I think they are the most suitable for that kind of job and I agree that, if you have need of that kind of high powered flock protection, that they are the best choice.  

But just because they are the most suitable for the job, it doesn't mean that folks need to constantly sneer at Labs and other regular old farm type dogs as being inferior in some way.  It's just too over the top to insist that they never could do the job of the LGD breeds when many have been using them successfully on their homesteads for many a long year.  It's like calling someone a liar when it is happening in their very own backyard and they experience it for years with their own eyes but everyone insists it simply cannot be true.  Sorry if that doesn't fit the picture many of you have of the wimpiness of regular dogs against big preds...I'm sure there are places and times where that is indeed true and the regular farm dog is no match for the wild packs and bigger preds. 

But not everywhere and not every time does this happen.  In my backyard it happens every day and has been going on for some time.  Yes, I realize that I may have the exception in my backyard...but it's true nonetheless.  So, making blanket statements about the unsuitable characteristics of farm dogs and comparing them to taking a Pekinese on a hunting trip is a little over the top, IMO.  It shows a decided prejudice towards these dogs and compares them to dogs that have no real purpose or strength in the natural world of farming and livestock production.  

Labs are hardy, intelligent, loyal and rugged dogs that respond well to training and are eager to perform any work their owners would require.  They do extremely well outdoors~actually are bred for it and originate from Newfoundland where the average winter temp is 32 degrees, but still are comfortable in hot climates as well.  They are adaptable, tough and prey driven.  When working in pairs, they are very capable of guarding home and yard....even when there are livestock on that yard.  

Does this make them ideal as a LGD?  Not necessarily.  Does it make them like a Pekinese on a hunting trip?  Not even any comparison, so making that comparison is very much a prejudicial and arrogant statement.  Get real, folks!  That kind of statement smacks of elitism about the LGD breeds and implies that mere mortals like Labs could never aspire to the level of perfection that is the LGD breed.  

I get the same attitude on BYC when people insist that a bird dog like a Lab would NEVER be a safe dog around chickens.  

Lighten up, people, and realize that just because it's a LGD breed doesn't meant that it won't kill chickens and ducks and that it can still get its butt kicked by predators...just like the average farm dog, even if it's a Lab.  And just because it ISN'T a LGD breed doesn't mean it WILL kill chickens and CAN'T defend the livestock from predators.  

Saying Labs and other farm type dogs can't do a certain job because you knew one or other that couldn't do that job is like saying that all Asians are liars because you used to have Asian neighbors that lied, or that all African Americans steal because all that live in your neighborhood steal from you. 

No one is saying that LGD aren't the _most_ suitable for the job...but stating that they are the ONLY dogs suitable for the job is ludicrous.


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## DuckLady (Sep 16, 2012)

I am sure this off topic bickering is ever so helpful to our new member who asked for advice on a specific subject.

OP, my apologies on behalf of the squabblers.


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