# Is this coccidia?  UPDATE on fecals-  HIGH STRANGENESS.... PLEASE LOOK



## Pixie Dust (Jan 27, 2013)

Hi Everyone!

Scouring doe.  Took fecal to vet, came bag negative.  Did my own fecal and this is what I got.  Pushed 5 cc's of Safeguard and 3/4 of a Sulmet Oblet as a drench mixed with enough CPK to dilute.  Also drenched 2 cc's of red cell and pro-bios.








[/url]/img]

Doe is shivering a bit.  Not completely off feed.  Still has plenty of energy.  Just poo ranging from normal to squirty scours.  No blood.

Thoughts?  Advice?

Thanks so much!

ps( 35 pound doe 22 months old)

edit to add:  doe just came off a 3 x 10 day cycle of Equimax.

Edit to add:  I found this image on someone's farm site:  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/url]]  Does that look at all like what I took?

Used the standard flotation method for egg collection.  Attribution of image to http://www.rattlesnakeridgeranch.com/fecal_exams.htm


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 27, 2013)

*I don't know the answer to your question but have you seen this page? http://fiascofarm.com/goats/fecals.htm Lots of egg pictures. I tried looking at your pic, but it's small and blurry. *


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 27, 2013)

Thank you so much.  I really s**K at doing fecals,  still learning and my microscope might actually be too powerful.  The minimum magnification is 40X.   There is nothing more upsetting than a sick goat.   Yes fiasco has great advice- I just ordered some of her wormer.  Going to try to get them on preventative.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 27, 2013)

Did the vet check for coccidia?


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## jodief100 (Jan 27, 2013)

It is an adult doe, I woudl give her Scour Halt (Scour Chek, Spectomycin) at 1 ml per 10 lbs. It is labeled for pigs but it works wonderfully on scouring goats.  Cocci is rarely a serious issue in healthy, adult does.  

You can get it at Tractor Supply.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 27, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> Thank you so much.  I really s**K at doing fecals,  still learning and my microscope might actually be too powerful.  The minimum magnification is 40X.   There is nothing more upsetting than a sick goat.   Yes fiasco has great advice- I just ordered some of her wormer.  Going to try to get them on preventative.


*
Actually I think you need to zoom in more, if you look in Fiasco Farms page, the eggs are shown at 100x and 400/410x magnification. See if you can zoom in on just one or two eggs.*


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 27, 2013)

Adult goats can get coccidia. 

I just took a fecal to my vet last Monday, and my doe that kidded two weeks ago, now has a very heavy load of coccidia.

I am giving her DiMethox 40%.

Please make sure you get a correct diagnosis.

DonnaBelle


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 27, 2013)

Thank you everyone for such great advice.  Pixie's poo seems to be drying up a bit.  She's eating and drinking - tail is up, she's talking....  eye lids are getting more red.

Going to do another fecal.  That microscope has a camera attached and its tricky to use.  I am such a rank amateur.  I hope I am not screwing them up.  I've had them now for going on two years, but this same phenomenon happened to Pixie just shortly after Bo kidded in May.  The vet said negative on worms and cocci, but didn't have the means to test for giardia.  He advised me to give her 5 cc's of Safeguard for seven days - it worked relatively well.  So I am doing the Safeguard and the Sulmet to cover all the bases.  Had really good results with the Equimax, so I am guessing this is not worms.

Again, thanks for all the advice.  I'll do another fecal and try to zoom in more.  You are all such an amazing resource.  Thank you!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 27, 2013)

I would give her some Probios daily for a week too. Never hurts to give Probios.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 27, 2013)

Hi Karen,

In your opinion, what would be the suggested dosage for her weight (35 lbs) - I have the " goats prefer " probiotic paste. Is it possible to overdose probios? Thanks 




			
				ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I would give her some Probios daily for a week too. Never hurts to give Probios.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 27, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> Hi Karen,
> 
> In your opinion, what would be the suggested dosage for her weight (35 lbs) - I have the " goats prefer " probiotic paste. Is it possible to overdose probios? Thanks
> 
> ...


*

I'm not sure of the dose for paste. I use the large side of the dipper in the powder. You cannot overdose probiotics.*


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 28, 2013)

Does anyone know if the cocci that infect chickens can be spread to goats?  Trying to solve my mystery and decide whether I should give the birds some sulmet... Thanks!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 28, 2013)

No it is species specific.

BTW very hard to tell from your pic... when I run my fecals at 100x the cocci is so small you really have to have an eye to catch it. If I think I see something then I go to a 400x.

Is there a chance your goat got into too much chicken feed? Especially since the fecal was neg from the vets.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 28, 2013)

No on the chicken feed.  Its not kept outside.  Keep it in my butler's pantry in the house. Chickens don't run with the goats.  But, they broke into the compost pile a few weeks ago.  Not sure why - they always have access to super high quality timothy hay...  perhaps they were bored.  They didn't get much out of the pile.  Got to them pretty quickly.  Little monsters 

Thanks for the tips!!  Going to try to do more fecals later today.  Pixie is doing soooo much better.  Just gave her B1 orally and it really sparked her appetite!  No runs - just big soft berries.   Poor little muzzle is green, orange and white (all the meds)!  Looks like the flag of the Ivory coast!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 28, 2013)

I"ve always bought Probios so I'm not sure. I give 5g of Probios to little ones and 10g Probios to adults.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jan 28, 2013)

Southern by choice said:
			
		

> No it is species specific.


x2
*
GOAT species*
Eimeria crandallis
Eimeria christenseni 
Eimeria arloingi

* Historically, some Eimeria species were thought to be infectious and transmissible between sheep and goats, but the parasites are now considered host-specific. the names of some species of goat coccidia are still erroneously applied to species of similar appearance found in sheep-Merck Vet Manual

*
SHEEP species*
Eimeria ahsata
Eimeria ovina
Eimeria ovinoidalis (a.k.a. ninakohlyakimorae this is one that seems to be mentioned as both sheep and goat, without agreement from one source to another as to its being in both animals)

*CHICKEN species*
Eimeria tenella
Eimeria maxima
Eimeria acervulina Eimeria
Eimeria mivati
Eimeria burnetti
Eimeria necatrix
Eimeria mitis
Eimeria praecox
Eimeria hagani

*
TURKEY species*
Eimeria adenoeides
Eimeria dispersa
Eimeria gallopavonis
Eimeria meleagrimitis
Eimeria innocua
Eimeria meleagridis
Eimeria subrotunda


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 28, 2013)

Hi Everyone!

Just sent this to Jodie via email ( we are in the same chicken group and have communicated before)  Ideas/thoughts/suggestions appreciated:

I had hubby pick up some scour halt on his way home tonight. Pixie had large berries earlier today, but as the day progressed, she went to mushy and then a squirty poo.  Now back to mush.

I have been reading on numerous sites that scour halt is good for kids, but may cause cessation of peristatic action of the rumen and possible death in adult goats.

Needless to say, I am a little freaked out about using this.

Pix is eating.  She is ruminating some.  She is on Sulmet and Safeguard.  She had 5 cc's of probiotic paste. I gave her 3 cc's of Thiamine and injected 3 cc's sq.   When her temp dropped below 100 today, I gave her some strong coffee with Karo syrup.  Temp is back to 100.7.   Someone on the forum recommended flat strong beer to re-florinate the rumen.  I have some ready to go, but I am a little nervous about that ( stout, room temp, and flat).  She grinds her teeth just a little bit and still continues to eat and drink.

We have a euonymus stand at the back of the yard.  They've been grazing on it a bit as it is the only living thing in the yard now.  I didn't remove it when I got them, as I read somewhere that it was not toxic.  I am now finding information that it is.  Do you think that could be the problem?  The other two are having no reaction.

Pix just came off a course of Equimax (eyelids were somewhat pale).  Scours started three days after last dose.

I would really love your opinion about the scour halt.  I am terrified to give it to her.  I would have taken her to the vet today, but her poo was firming up until the late afternoon, now its mushy/squirty.  She is alert though. Eating/drinking/talking.  Tail between fully up and down, depending.  Temp is holding consistent at just over 101.

Thanks so much.  Sorry to bother you, but I am a little desperate right now.

Suzanne

Oh - a footnote - went out to put them in their shed to find all three of them on the back porch, a little "wide eyed" as a nasty old oppossum was making his way onto the deck.  I scared it off...Do you think an oppossum could infect Pix with something?

EDIT TO ADD:  Keeping in mind that Pixie is teeny tiny.  35 pounds,  17" (ish) tall.  Little teeny weeny  hooves and fine boned.  Ridiculously tiny goat.   Too much so, I fear.....


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## BrownSheep (Jan 28, 2013)

I know for scouring lambs that peptobismol can help.


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## babsbag (Jan 28, 2013)

I can't give you any information on scour halt as I have never used it. But I am the one that uses the beer. That treatment is used by my vet on her own goats and her patients and was suggested to her by another vet that also raises goats. Many of us use it with good results and the goats don't seem to mind. We gave a 120 lb goat an entire beer so adjust accordingly for her small size. We don't want to make her sick or drunk. 

I have never had a goat with serious scours (knock on wood), so not much help there. It is good that she is eating and drinking. Hope that she turns around for you.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 29, 2013)

babsbag said:
			
		

> I can't give you any information on scour halt as I have never used it. But I am the one that uses the beer. That treatment is used by my vet on her own goats and her patients and was suggested to her by another vet that also raises goats. Many of us use it with good results and the goats don't seem to mind. We gave a 120 lb goat an entire beer so adjust accordingly for her small size. We don't want to make her sick or drunk.
> 
> I have never had a goat with serious scours (knock on wood), so not much help there. It is good that she is eating and drinking. Hope that she turns around for you.


Thank you so much - just checked on her.  She was resting and alert, but as soon as she stood up?  Splat!  Not watery, not bloody, not a lot of poo, just pasty and medium brown with a kind of smell between corn and vomit.  I have had the stout sitting out all night, so a lot of the alcohol has probably evaporated.  On my way out to give Pix her "eye openener".  

Again babsbag, I can't thank you enough.  In fact a huge thank you to all of you for being there for this newbie.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 29, 2013)

we use SpecatGard and I would give her 3 cc's, and another dose in 12 hours.  
I would not give her anymore Corn syrup, Corn syrup can cause scouring and doesn't sound like she needs that. Yes, it is a very good source of energy. But I woudln't recommend using it on a goat that is scouring.
I would get a package of RE-sorb and/or Sav A Caf electrolytes, and see if she will allow you to drench her with that, or add some to her water source. Get a good feeding/drenching syringe while at the feed store, 30cc's work well. 30 cc's is one ounce.  Try and get 2 or 3 ounces into her every 3 or 4 hours. but if it is stressing her out too much, and she is drinking water, then just add a little to her water. The Resorb is pretty tasteless, the Sav A caf is orange flavored. I often alternate the two products. 
Only give hay, no green grass, no grains.

And then we come to the discussion of the sulmet and safegaurd, clearly those things aren't working. I would stop using them. 

probiotics,  two times a day.  Plain yogurt or vanilla yogurt. it can be thinned with the electrolytes mentioned above and given as a drench.  But Probios for cattle works really well that comes in a tube and easy to give.

B-complex injectable  given as an injection.  Great for a ruminant and will help her a lot while her rumen is having problems. 

With her low body temp, I would give her antibiotics. In her case I would prefer Baytril It is a Rx.  

But if you don't have that and can't get it, I would give her Penn G(procain G) shots twice a day the first two days and then one time a day the last 3 days for a total of 5 days. Penn G will help with the toxins in her system, but the Baytrill will actually treat her if it is a bacterial problem.
For the Penn G, i would give her 2 cc's the first shot and 1 cc after that. 

then for several days after all treatments, I woudl continue to give her probiotics.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 29, 2013)

Low body temp. can be a symptom of her rumen slowing down.  A vet can listen to her rumen and perscribe B-complex, and a steriod.  
But it wouldn't hurt to give her a teaspoon of baking soda a couple times today.  Mix a little water in it and squirt in back of the mouth, slowly.  Or mix into a little yogurt and thin with alittle water.


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## jodief100 (Jan 30, 2013)

How is Pixie doing?


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 30, 2013)

Hi everyone!

Again, thanks so  much for all this great advice!

Pix is doing better.  We're getting berry/dog poo combos.  A little looser at times.  She is eating ( hay only)  and drinking, alert, tail up, eyes pinker.  I have been harvesting Ivy for her to eat and she is going nuts over it.  The  things that really seem to be working is the Pepto and Greek Yogurt.  I am going to give her a b complex injection in a bit, but since her temp is now normal, probably going to hold off on the antibiotics for now.  

Does anyone know, on average, how long it typically takes for food to work through the digestive system?  I thought that I read 72 hours somewhere?  I can't seem to find an answer to this anywhere...

Thanks everyone!  You are all so great!


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 30, 2013)

Hey Everyone!

So I have been working with the microscope a bit more and have, at 800X magnification, found images that look like this:







I don't have acces to a computer with a usb until later tonight, so I cannot use the microscope's camera function.

What I am seeing looks like a circle just as the image above, but the perimeter of the circle is much thicker, about three times as thick ( the ring around the circle).  The interior looks like the surface of the moon.

What do you think this is?

edit to add:  in this photograph, there is another visible circle that looks like it isn't zoomed.  the perimeter of that circle is very similar to what I am seeing, but with a grainy interior texture, very moon surface like.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 30, 2013)

*Maybe this???*

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...lient=safari&sa=N&rls=en&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 30, 2013)

*Here is a drawing... maybe give you an idea? http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/83/83-5/Michele_Konnersman.gif*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 30, 2013)

*More: http://www.luresext.edu/goats/library/field/eggs-of-ruminant-gi-parasit.jpg*


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 30, 2013)

*Cocci?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=en&client=safari&sa=N&rls=en&tbm=isch&itbs=1*


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

Wow WMR, thank yo so much!

It definitely looks like cocci, but not oval, round.  Could be crypto. but this goat drinks filtered water free of chlorine and fluoride and pharmaceuticals from stainless steel buckets that are washed several times per week.  All three of them drink from them.  She is the only sick one.

Have you ever known a worming schedule to cause issues like this?  

How would you treat?

Thanks so much again!


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 31, 2013)

sulmet is not a very strong medication for coccidiosis. If it is for sure a high cocci load still causing the problem then you need to use a better medication.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 31, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> Have you ever known a worming schedule to cause issues like this?  How would you treat?  Thanks so much again!


Do you do coccidia treatment on some sort of schedule? What do you use? 

Yes, treating parasites on some sort of schedule will build up a resistance to the drug you are using, making it totally ineffective. Obviously your one girl is more sensitive than the others.

I always look at things individually. I have seem some weird problems over the years and you can NEVER just treat every animal equally. Some animals are just more sensitive to things than others. Just because something works on the rest of your herd doesn't mean it will work for every animal.

Have you used DiMethox yet? I would get DiMethox 40% and treat her with it at 1cc per 5 lbs the first day and then 1cc per 10 lbs days 2-5. You draw it up with a needle, take the needle off and give it to her orally. Do NOT dilute at all.

Parasites are becoming very quickly immune to drugs. So you need to treat your herd when there is a problem. Not on a schedule.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

I got it.  I saw several of these on the slide, clearly.  Unfortunately, by the time I got the camera hooked up, they had crystalized and were becoming too hazy to capture.

Weird thing is - This photograph is of Avian cocci.  The eggs are perfectly round.  Truly identical to this image. 

Has anyone ever heard of Avian cocci infecting goats?  Is there some strange metamorphosis in protozoan going on here?

I am truly at a loss.

She is doing better, on the road, etc.  

Same thing happened to her after Bo's freshening.  Vet ( who also owns goats) said fecals were negative for everything.  

Something weird is going on here.  Ideas??


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jan 31, 2013)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Pixie Dust said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
X2.

This is what I would do.*


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Pixie Dust said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Di-Methox injectable?  Any possibility that it will hurt the rumen?  

Greatly appreciate the help! 

Oh, and I didn't mean worming schedule, I meant a worming course of treatment - I did once every ten days for thirty days with Equimax.  Her FAMACHA was borderline.  I don't worm on a schedule, only as observed as needed.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

So in your collective experience, is it common for vet's fecals to come back negative when they are indeed positive?  This has happened twice  now.

Ordered the Di-Methox overnight from Jeffers.  TSC doesn't carry it here ( nor much else of any use to be honest)  I'll keep using the sulmet until it arrives.

And so much for Noble Goat medicated.  I only feed Pixie about four ounces per day, but if this is the result, there's no point.  Good news is that the poo is a combo of really huge berries and dog type poo. No longer scouring.  A lot darker than before, so we're headed in the right direction. 

Again, a most heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you.  You have been an invaluable resource.  So much knowledge in this collective.


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## babsbag (Jan 31, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> The Di-Methox injectable?  Any possibility that it will hurt the rumen?


That is pretty much the industry standard for treating / preventing cocci in goats. I have never seen or heard of it damaging a rumen.


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## Roll farms (Jan 31, 2013)

Medicated feed won't work unless kids eat enough to get the medicine at therapeutic levels and have NO cocci in their system.   It doesn't kill off or 'cure' them, it works by helping keep it at low levels while / until they build immunity.  If a kid is already carrying a heavy load or having symptoms, and too little to eat whatever the 'dose' for it's weight is daily....it's useless.

We do DiMethox every 21 days and have had great success....when DiMethox stops being effective, I'll go to SMZ-TMP.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

Babs et al,

OMG I have so much to learn.  Keeping city goats is a challenge.  It sounds romantic, but its hard work in that you can't get a farm vet, etc.  My vet isn't that far away, but loading up a scouring goat is not always a good option.  Furthermore, his fecals always come back negative.  He breeds Nubians.  I am lost for that.  I want to find a good class on Goat Management to hone skills on shots, blood draws, etc.  I am seriously considering going back to school to train as a vet tech for large animals ( not that a Nigerian Dwarf qualifies as a large animal - lol).


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## 20kidsonhill (Jan 31, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> So in your collective experience, is it common for vet's fecals to come back negative when they are indeed positive?  This has happened twice  now.
> 
> Ordered the Di-Methox overnight from Jeffers.  TSC doesn't carry it here ( nor much else of any use to be honest)  I'll keep using the sulmet until it arrives.
> 
> ...


yes,. ours come back negative even though they are pouring scours out of them, and then when we treat for cocci it clears up.  We prefer corid on kids older than 6 weeks, younger than that I often use sulfa-dimethoxine, but I just use the 12.5% that comes in a gallon jug. You can also get a powder package of either corid or sulfa-dimethoxine and mix it yourself.  Medicated feed does work, but it is a prevention and there will be break throughs and they do have to eat enough of it.  I think it is like 3% of their body weight for the prevention part to even work and even still there will be break throughs.  I prefer a Rumensin/Monensin based medicated feed over the Deccox(Dequinox) medicated feed.  But many bagged feeds come with the Deccox as the medication.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 31, 2013)

The Ohio State Lab does a great job on fecals. I think you have to have the vet send it in but you could contact them and see if you can send one in. I have had some weird stuff come back on fecals from the state lab. My alpaca vet even stopped doing her own fecals and just sends them in to the state lab.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

Thanks Karen - that's great to know.  It would be worth driving up there to get straight answers.  My DH goes to Lex three times a week.  I wonder if there are similar resources at UK.

Pix's poo was firming up and now she's scouring again.  I ordered the Di-Methox from Jeffers - they wanted $100 in shipping to get it here tomorrow.  Since her poo appeared to be firming, I opted for Monday delivery.  I wish I had just paid the $100.  When she scours, she grinds her teeth.  I gave her some more yogurt and some pepto.  I am still scared to give her the scour halt, as she had rumen issues last Spring after demonstrating these same symptoms that could not be diagnosed.  I am afraid to give her aspirin.  Her system is so delicate that I am concerned about damage to the rumen.  I read that you can give 81 mg. for pain either baby or adult aspirin, but I am terrified to keep adding to the mix of chemicals in her system

I gave her the Sulmet Oblet solution this morning.  3/4 of a tablet, watered down to drench.  Should I give her more?  Is there any danger in another dose?  What I didn't do was give her another Safeguard (5cc) dose.  Should I?  Does that have any effect on cocci?

I called to vet to see if he had any Di-Methox in his arsenal.  Had to leave a message.

Arggggg.  There isn't enough wine in the world to erase this stress.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 31, 2013)

I would get Probios and give her Probios daily for at least a week. I think Probios offers more than yogurt.

Sorry, I thought you were in Ohio. You can look into your state lab and see if you can send in a fecal sample.

I've never used Sulmet so I don't know.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

I've been giving Goats Prefer Probios, but ... she hates it.  Its even peanut butter flavored.  I am going to go force her little jaws open again and give her a good squirt.  She hates me so right now.  I am the bringer of icky things and discomfort.

I am in Ohio - Cincinnati.  Hubby works for a company in Lexington.  Drives down there about three days per week.   Karen, thanks so much for hanging with me on this   I so love this goat.  Like a child to me.


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## GLENMAR (Jan 31, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/8346_coccidia21.jpg
> 
> 
> I got it.  I saw several of these on the slide, clearly.  Unfortunately, by the time I got the camera hooked up, they had crystalized and were becoming too hazy to capture.
> ...


Looks like a White Blood Cell.


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## Pixie Dust (Jan 31, 2013)

What would white blood cell signify?  Leukemia?


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## babsbag (Jan 31, 2013)

In people it would be an indicator of an intestinal tract infection or inflamation. However I don't know if WBC are normally found and only a problem if more than a certain amount are found. Maybe they are there simply because her intestianl tract is inflamed. 

Has she been checked for salmonella or other infections or other things that can cause intestinal inflamations, like Giardia?


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## Cricket (Feb 1, 2013)

Avian cocci can be in non-host species, just 'passing through'.  (my dogs, who eat chicken poop, show it.  My vet has instructed me to not let them do that.:/).  I'm not a goat person, but would also suggest you look at Giardia.  At least in people, it can encyst and reoccur (so is sort of dormant?).  It also screws up your system so that other bacteria that normally aren't a problem, explode.  

I had it late last fall and didn't go to the dr. for a month, as it would get better, then not.  From what I've read, by the time it's encysted, antibiotics aren't apt to work (or a at least you go thru the, "well, let's try this next" thing).  When it would start to reoccur with me, (which starts with bloat), I'd drink ACV in water and it was immediate improvement and it would nip it in the bud (or bloom!).

Don't know how this would translate to goats.  Good luck:


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## Pixie Dust (Feb 1, 2013)

I didn't see any giardia in her fecal, but I am still so bad at this.  The vet didn't report any giardia either, although I think I remember him saying something about it being a send away test.  What he had me do was give 5cc's of safeguard every day for five days.  He said it would kill giardia.  

If I can't get a quick test done for giardia, should I continue to give the safeguard and sulmet?  I don't want to overload her system but I have to do something.  The Di-methox won't be here until Monday unless I can get some from the vet.

If this is giardia, wouldn't it be likely that the other two girls would have it as well?  Isn't it highly contagious?

She also just lost one of her baby teeth.  Do you think that could have contributed to the problem?

Poo is firming up again today.  For now.  

Mods - if you feel it is appropriate to move this thread to a non emergency area, feel free.  I am hogging way too much attention.

Oh - just heard from the vet - he has Albon   Yipeeeee! on my way


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## ksalvagno (Feb 1, 2013)

Giardia and Crypto are separate tests that have to be done. Run about $50 a piece. I would really get that fecal in to the Ohio state lab. If you don't mind spending the money, have them do the giradia and crypto too. Probably even salmonella wouldn't hurt either.


My experience with crypto and giardia is with alpacas. It doesn't seem to spread but can't say that it won't. It has always been caught quickly for me so really didn't have a chance to spread. I really suspect that they are more oportunistic with animals that immune systems aren't as good.

I would go and buy actual tubes of Probios from TSC. Then give her 10g per day once a day for at least a week. I would probably just give it to her daily until you are done with meds.


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## Pixie Dust (Feb 1, 2013)

Pixie's poos are now clumped together berries!  Progress!  Obviously the sulmet was having some positive effect.  Got the Albon from the vet and dosed at about 4 pm today.   Won't know the effect of that until it gets through the system.  

Is the digestive system really 72 hours?  Trying to determine how long it takes for the meds to show a positive result and which meds are most effective.

There is no doubt that this is cocci.

We have a rogue groundhog that may be the culprit.  I've never killed a living thing, but I may have to in this case.  Incidentally, tomorrow is Groundhog Day.  I've owned a gun for 20 years.  Never fired it.  Don't even have bullets.  Someone suggested bubble gum to kill groundhogs.  Some recommended throwing an M80 into its den.  All seems so incredibly cruel.  They are truly sweet vegetarian creatures.  We've captured and rehomed over 30 raccoons this year.  Easy to catch raccoons.  Groundhogs are a bit more intelligent.

So, I have to ask... how much time have each of you spent staring at goat bottoms on the average?  This has become my new hobby.... tentatively staring at goat bottoms anticipating the consistency and viscosity of the impending poo...  have you ever noticed how much goat tails/bottoms look like little old men in anoraks ( parkas).  There must be a pictorial there somewhere....Perhaps the cover of National Geographic?  " The Secret Lives of Goat Bottoms"...sorry.... days of interrupted sleep, getting up every three hours to ensure that my little goatie girl is still kicking.   Waking up in the morning, stressed out, going to the shed before doing anything else.... Peeking in to find.....ah, she's ok.  She's eating, wagging her tail.. whew... where is the coffee.  When was the last time I ate?  Neurotic?  Absolutely.  Worth it?  Without question.  There is nothing more connected to Gaia than caring for the creatures that were designed and implemented to maintain balance.  We are lucky, aren't we?  Even in the worst of times, these creatures are a blessing.


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## Pixie Dust (Feb 1, 2013)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Giardia and Crypto are separate tests that have to be done. Run about $50 a piece. I would really get that fecal in to the Ohio state lab. If you don't mind spending the money, have them do the giradia and crypto too. Probably even salmonella wouldn't hurt either.
> 
> 
> My experience with crypto and giardia is with alpacas. It doesn't seem to spread but can't say that it won't. It has always been caught quickly for me so really didn't have a chance to spread. I really suspect that they are more oportunistic with animals that immune systems aren't as good.
> ...


Thanks Karen! 

I have the TSC "goats prefer pro-bios".  The yogurt was an attempt to put some actual nutrition into the gut as well.  Pixie was a bottle baby from the breeder.  No comparison between her general health and Domino's ( our kid from the spring who nursed naturally)  In your experience, do bottle babies tend to be more delicate?  Incidentally,  Domino is more docile and naturally friendlier than Pixie.  She's a lover.  In my limited experience, the one on one attention from us was much more beneficial than removing her from her mother for feeding to force loyalty via the stomach.  From what we have observed, its about regular interaction versus the hand that feeds it.  Of course, our experience is limited, but the person to whom we donated the bucklings ( now wethers) states that the boys are the friendliest goats she has ever seen.

Per the breeder, Pixie was "yanked" at birth and put on cow's milk.  I am not sure that she ever received any colostrum.  Would it be a crazy endeavor to give her some colostrum now?   Would there be a benefit?


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## Roll farms (Feb 2, 2013)

Babies can't absorb the antibodies from colostrum past 24-36 hrs, studies have shown.

There is an injectable immunity booster called, "Bovi Sera" available through Jeffer's Livestock....Caprine Supply or Hoegger's recommends it as well, though we've never used it.  
I bought some, I just never used it...

From the other side of the 'baby yanker' coin....I yank 40 or so kids a year, and they do as well or better than dam-reared kids and I very very rarely lose any - to being squished, rejected, too hot, too cold, bad udders, bad moms, etc.

With a few kids it's very easy to imprint them and spend enough time making them tame, esp. if the dam is tame.

If you have wild does, even if kids are handled daily at first, they usually revert to the dam's 'wild ways' as they get older and observe mom run from you.

With a large-ish herd, bottle feeding is the best / easiest way for us to A) ensure the kids get everything they need and B)that kids are friendly.

There's an art to any livestock husbandry, baby-raising is just another art form....practice and good sanitation help a lot.

To each their own.


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## Pixie Dust (Feb 2, 2013)

There is no doubt that there is a vast difference between backyard herds and a large operation.  I certainly meant no disrespect to anyone's practices.  Only relating my experience with my backyard herd on the backyard herds forum raising teeny tiny little dwarf goats. If I  had a large operation, or a meat operation I would do as you do as well.  There would be no other way   But IMO, there is nothing more amazing than watching a mother doe care for her young.  My goats are really pets more than anything else.  They live like queens.  Even have their own I touch playing music.  They love Frank Sinatra and old standards 

Sorry if I sounded offensive.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 2, 2013)

I dam raise but will bottle feed when necessary. I really don't see a difference with bottle babies or dam raised. If you properly bottle raise, it should be the same. I would bet that your girl got colostrum. She just got it in a bottle instead of a teat. Every goat is going to be different as far as immunity and all.

Keep in mind that if your goats are living in the same space all the time, they will also continue to "infect" the area. It has been proven in studies that animals left on the same space year after year that the land will get more and more "infected" with parasites. Land needs time to rest. Of course most people, even in the country, only have 1 area for their animals. So parasites will be more prevelant as time goes on. If there is any way for you to do the intensive grazing method, maybe that would help if you could do that for a year or two.


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## Pixie Dust (Feb 2, 2013)

Hi Karen!

Yes, the thought haunts me.... no pastures to rotate, but I have a plan!  Tell me if this is stupid -

1.  Relocate or kill the groundhog.
2.  Put out squirrel feeders above goat reach with pelleted wormer in the feed
3.  Capture and relocate all raccoons ( 30 this year alone, legally re-homed to a wildlife sanctuary) Same goes for Oppossums, but they get to meet their maker, evil scary things.
4.  Creation of a new area for them- about 1.5 acres free of any threats - going to remove the existing groundcover, treat the ground with a 10:1 ammonia solution, deep roto till with agricultural lime and re-seed with timothy grass which will be treated with barn lime and de on a regular basis.  Lawn vacum pellets every other day.  Grass will be kept at a minimum of 4' tall.  We have a border of wild honeysuckle that also sustains them for true forage during the summer.
5.  New shed with a raised tenderfoot type floor where the pellets will drop through into a collection tray.  Manure will be composted.  Manure is currently composted, but it falls into their bedding currently - not a fan of that although I change it weekly.
6.  Move the chickens to a 13' tractor, add a couple of guinea fowl and rotate the tractor at least once per week.
7.  Treat with coccidia prevention at the first sign of less than brilliantly pink eyelids ( been advised this is good practice, not sure its the perfect solution.)  Worm per fecal results, although we have been worm free per fecals for almost two years.
8.  Take some essential non credit large animal veterinary classes.

I've had the goats for coming up on two  years.  There were no domestic animals kept here for at least ten years prior.  The cocci have to be coming from wildlife.

6.  Find a farm near Lexington and move within two years maximum.  Have four goat pastures. to rotate , open an dairy, raise ostriches and bison.

Poo update:  Berries almost normal   Thank you so much to everyone for all the help!  I wish I could find a way to repay you!


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## goodolboy (Feb 2, 2013)

A LGD will get rid of all those unwanted critters.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 2, 2013)

Pixie Dust said:
			
		

> 1.  Relocate or kill the groundhog.
> 
> _I would just kill the groundhog_
> 
> ...


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## Pixie Dust (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks so much Karen!  Great advice!

My vet did say that there are some cocci that are not species specific and that groundhogs and squirrels are major culprits.  

OSU?  Yikes.  That'd be a 2 hour drive.  Looking into UC (University of Cincinnatii).  I live five minutes from UC

How would you kill the raccoons, opossum and ground hog?  Technically speaking, it is illegal to shoot a firearm in city limits.  I guess I could buy a silencer?  LOL.

Regarding barberpole worm- didn't see any in the fecals, neither did two vets.  Is it possible that cocci can cause anemia?  Her lids were pretty light pink as the scours started....Wouldn't the Equimax have knocked out the barberpoles?  She had been treated with Equimax, 1.5 cc's at day one, ten, twenty and thirty prior to the scours starting.

Pix is now assuming the stance of a show goat.  No hunching.  Looking very dairy.  First time since I've had her.  

Well, have a happy and splendid Saturday night... and thank you and everyone again so much!


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## ksalvagno (Feb 2, 2013)

If coccidia is bad, it could. But it can take a long time for eyelids to look pink again. But it sounds like Pixie is on the road to recovery now.

OSU is the one with the vet school. U of C doesn't. But the state lab has nothing to do with OSU. I think they are in Reynoldsburg. I'm talking about the actual state vet lab.

While you are learning how to read fecals, I would also send in a sample from the same stool sample you are looking at to the state lab so that you can compare and learn.


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