# Ug. First disbudding.



## chandasue (Apr 6, 2010)

I think it went ok. I got a copper ring around each bud and burned the centers a bit but not sure if I did that enough and I'm worried about just how wide that ring should have been. In hind sight, it was thinner in a couple areas than others. Is there a certain width to the ring that I should have been going for?


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## DonnaBelle (Apr 6, 2010)

Hi Chanda,

There are several videos on disbudding a goat on YouTube.

See if you can find some to view, might be of help.

DonnaBelle


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## chandasue (Apr 6, 2010)

I think I've watched every one of them. LOL I'm just second guessing myself since I didn't have someone who's done it looking over my shoulder telling me what to do better...


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## dkluzier (Apr 6, 2010)

I did the same thing, second guessing and worrying.  Called the vet and she didn't even want to see the goat to double-check, said everyone thinks they should have done it differently...


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## chandasue (Apr 6, 2010)

I guess I just wait and see if scurs grow and learn from it. :/


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 6, 2010)

My vet just my 3 and said if I notice scurs to bring them back in right away and they'll fix it. But if they're older or I let the scurs get big that they can't do anything about it. 

I didn't realize you could do a "touch up".


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## michickenwrangler (Apr 6, 2010)

When I posted about a "touch up" people started replying with "OMG you could have killed him!"

So you can?

My 11 week old buckling now has horns, as do his sister and all other kids at Saaga-Togg Acres, so she and I must be doing something wrong and we keep getting conflicting advice on how to do it


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## chandasue (Apr 6, 2010)

It's really frustrating, isn't it...

On another note, I was just out to check on them and I must have brushed the top/backside of one of the girl's eyelid. It's a bit swollen and there's a small singe mark. She's my favorite and I truly feel awful now.


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## RockyToggRanch (Apr 6, 2010)

I only know what the vet just told me. She seemed to know what she was talking about. But I didn't know it was an option or I would have had my buckling "touched up" last yr.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 6, 2010)

The goat people around here say it is fine to touch up. My vet has no problems with touching them up. I guess you just need to be careful.


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## Roll farms (Apr 6, 2010)

I just did a touch up on a 5 week old Togg kid...I don't know who hated it more, me or him...he bucked and kicked the entire time and I'm still bruised from it.

It's more stressful on them (imho) when they're older...and you don't want to leave the iron on their head TOO long, either first go or during a touch up.

I try to get them good the first time, but you can't hit a home run at every at bat...especially w/ bucklings.

I get a copper ring, then I sort of rub / flip off the 'nub' (skin) of the horn and burn an 'X' into the center.


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## dhansen (Apr 7, 2010)

There is nothing worse than having to "fix" a disbudding job.  It's horrible the first time around, so I always do a little more than I think is necessary.  It's also very difficult to hold down a older, stronger, larger goat!  The last kid I disbudded, I slipped and charred the side of my hand.  I just whispered to myself, "Serves me right fro hurting this little baby".  Seems like the few bucklings I've done that stayed bucks, all got a tiny bit of scur.  Raging testosterone??? I have "touched up" some scurs, but do it right the first time!


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2010)

The point of the copper ring is to indicate that the skin is thoroughly 'cooked' in a complete circle around the horn bud, effectively shutting off bloodflow to the center.  If you got a copper ring, blood won't pass through and the bud will die.

That's all disbudding is.  That's all it's intended to do.  There's no reason to do anything more than burn the ring around the bud.  If you got a copper ring, you're good.  

Now, if you got a _mostly_ copper ring but maybe there were a few spots that weren't completely cooked, blood WILL find its way in there and -- though stunted severely -- the bud will live and produce some kind of horn.  

We have one with a nice little scur right now that's a direct result of me seeing a couple of little black areas in the copper that weren't completely burned....but calling it good anyway.  :/  Can't do that.

But, FWIW...if it makes the job any more tolerable or whatever...there's really no reason to burn X's, +'s, burn till you see white skull, scoop out the bud with the iron or any of that kind of thing..  If you get the copper ring, bloodflow is shut off, and you're done.  The bud *will* die.


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## dkluzier (Apr 7, 2010)

we've only disbudded 3 so far and I absolutely dread doing it.  I hate doing it.  I worried about the first 2 which were twins disbudded on the same day so when it came time to do the buckling born 2 months later I made sure to get the nice copper ring.  Sure enough he had problems 2 days later and I had to rush him to the vet.  The vet said the disbudding may have been partially to blame but looked good.  I should not have left him play and romp and probably he butted heads with another goat causing the swelling to be worse and it pinched off his optic nerve and he was temporarily blinded. Then I had to give him 2 shots twice daily for 5 days and I hated that job as much as the disbudding.

Now we have 2 doelings ready to disbud and I DON"T WANT TO DO IT!!


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## The Egg Bandit (Apr 7, 2010)

This has been my first kid season.  I knew I had to disbud so my goats could have the best quality of life.  I put it off too long on the first kid, and the iron wouldn't fit.  She went to the vet to get done.  The second one I was so freaked I didn't do a good enough job.  So she went to the vet also when her horns kept growing.  I certainly hope this gets easier.  I know I'll never like having to do it, but I'd at least like to be able to do it right!
The thing is the copper ring.  I didn't get a full copper ring, but I thought it was "good enough".  NOT.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2010)

TEB said:
			
		

> I didn't get a full copper ring, but I thought it was "good enough".  NOT.


NOT is right...I know that first hand, too..

I guess the way I look at it now is like....if you get a nice thick-ish solid copper ring on the first rattle out of the box, great.  If you don't -- and you usually don't -- your first instinct is to _think_ you have some kind of decision to make.  You can either:

A) Call it good and formulate some kind of irrational belief that you won't get scurs...even though you will get scurs..., or

B) You can hit it again and run the risk of (gasp  ) sending the iron clean to the skull.

What to do, what to do....

Thing is, see...that "decision" with which you've been faced...well, it isn't really a decision at all.  What you're actually looking at is an incomplete job on the first go.  That's all.  You're not deciding whether or not to _do it more_, you're deciding whether or not to _finish what you started_.

When you look at it in those terms, it becomes pretty clear that you hit'em again!  And if you burn to the skull, so be it!  

It sucks...I know...believe me...but if you're gonna disbud, that's just how it works.



And, yeah, I've burnt to the skull before and got cussed up one side and down the other by my wife who practically lost her mind when she saw her baby wether boy's skull..  I mean, dude...she LOST IT.  

Pretty sure it was the next one we did where I hesitated and called it good..  Poof -- that one has scurs.

The wether I burnt to the bone is slick as a whistle, though.


ETA:  Just to be clear, I'm not preaching at anybody in particular here.    Just kinda sayin'...expressing more thoughts on the matter.  Not intended to be directed at anybody or anything like that.  May even be directed at myself, frankly...


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## mossyStone (Apr 7, 2010)

those of you that can do this i admire..... I wimp'd out big time and found a gal thur my 4 h grp.... took the kids to her, went for a walk to look at her mini donkeys ..then cried all the way home fearing i had just killed off my babie's.......   They are fine ........ But she is my go to for the job, i just cant do it!!!!!!!!



Mossy Stone Farm  in Washington

Pygora's and Nubians

Bantam Marans Bourboun Red Turkeys


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2010)

I had a friend of mine tell me once "I don't know how you do that.  I can't bring myself to do it."

Thing is, he's raised goats for YEARS...doesn't really "love" goats like a lot of us, nor does he really get attached to them..  He's put a lot of goats down himself over the years...does stuff like draw blood and give IV meds at home pretty routinely...performs embryo extraction surgery and embryo transfers at home...has set and splinted broken limbs at home...has removed broken horns at home...has performed c-sections at home...hell, he's got a surgery room in his barn with a table, flourescent lights, a sink, a cabinet full of meds and supplies, etc.............but _dIsBudDinG_?  NO WAY.  Won't do it.  That's where he draws the line.

Fact is, disbudding is rough.  I don't care who you are or how long you've been raising goats...it's rough.  Gets easier with time, I suppose, but it really does go against every fiber of my being to touch a red hot iron to living, breathing, sweet little baby animal's head..

The good news is that, by pretty much all accounts, it's WAY rougher on the people than the goats.


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## Roll farms (Apr 7, 2010)

CM, pal...buddy...friend...

Since I disbud all my kids, do it for 4-H groups, and for random people who 'hire' me to do theirs, burning roughly 100 kids or so per year...I do feel qualified to comment that not ALL kids with good copper rings will be ok and not scur.

How many bucks have you done?  (And still have around, so that you can verify they really don't have scurs?)  I've seen a lot of bucks leave w/ no scurs and then develop them later when they go into rut the first time....f'real.  

Bucks are notoriously hard to disbud.  I don't go to the extreme of scooping out the bud, but I have a lot LESS buck scurs by doing the X in the center than I used to.

That togg is the first "reburn" I've had to do this year, in fact....out of 58 or so (not all mine).  26 were bucks or future wethers-to-be.
I went easy on him the first time b/c Toggs seem to swell up / suffer more from disbudding than any breed I've ever done.  

Wethers are much easier, as are does, since they don't have the extra testosterone 'push' to grow big manly horns.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2010)

You've done a ton more than I have, so I'll defer to you..  But...  

If burning the center was that important, tips would either be solid or sorta 'domed' to burn the center, or would come with an 'X' built-in..

It's a ring for a reason..

The reason is that the ring shuts off bloodflow, which _should_ be all that's required to stop the horn from growing from the center of the horn bud.

I'll also say that bucks tend have a bigger horn base than does, so the ring doesn't always cover the entirety of the horn base...which may leave a few living horn cells outside the ring...which, to me, explains why they get more scurs, and why their scurs tend to sprout from _outside_ the original burn ring.

But that's all I'm saying.  You keep right on burning your X's and I won't way another word to you to the contrary..


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## Roll farms (Apr 7, 2010)

I'd never imply you can't say anything, because, well...heaven help anyone who ever thought they could....

I just know a lot of new folks read here and I try to encourage them to do what works for them....be open to new things...there is usually not "just one right way" w/ goats.

Oh...meant to say earlier, to the poster who burnt their hand...been there, done that a bazillion times.  My husband bought me an Ov Glove this Christmas it helps a lot.  I haven't gotten a single burn this year.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 7, 2010)

I don't burn an X in the center ,but I do pick off the skin in the middle and burn the middle.  I did figure 8 style burnings on the bucks I did this year (two more circles center forward of the buds) because swiss bucks are notorious for scurs.  ALL of the calves we did got the buds scooped out with the disbudding iron.  

I must be the oddball here, because I honestly don't mind disbudding. I was nervous for my first one, but only because I wanted to make sure I got it right, not because I was afraid of hurting the kids.  I actually kinda like doing it, and wouldn't mind doing more. 

I look at it this way, would I rather the kids have a few moments of discomfort when they're little and get over it quickly, or would I rather put it off until they need their skulls cut into to remove horns that weren't disbudded?  I've seen firsthand what happens when you de-horn goats and cows, and it isn't pretty. AT ALL.  It's awful and not something I would EVER want to put another animal through.  

So, disbud now and save everyone (goat included) lots of grief in the long run.  My goats were all running around and playing within a few minutes of being disbudded.  They didn't miss a beat.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'd never imply you can't say anything, because, well...heaven help anyone who ever thought they could....






			
				atk said:
			
		

> I must be the oddball here, because I honestly don't mind disbudding.


Yes.  Yes you are.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 7, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Yes.  Yes you are.


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## The Egg Bandit (Apr 7, 2010)

cmjust0:  You are right, that is exactly what I did.  I talked myself out of finishing the job.  It was a conversation I should not have even started!

I KNEW what it was supposed to look like when you get a good burn - I helped a disabled friend disbud several crops of kids before mine were due to be done - and yet I still convinced myself that the job was "good enough".  And that poor sweet baby had to go through it a second time at the vet's because I messed up the first time.

The way I see it, it's my resposibility to do it and get it right.  I wimped out, and I haven't forgiven myself yet.  Fortunately the little doe in question has forgiven me!


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## cmjust0 (Apr 7, 2010)

We live; we learn.  Especially when we live with goats.  Often, we learn the hard way because relatively few people -- Americans, anyway -- have travelled the path we're on.  Very often, our beloved goats end up being guinea pigs, subject to our ability (or inability) to diagnose and solve problems and make decisions _quickly._

We do the best we can.  Sometimes our failures and successes are small, and don't much affect the final outcome; sometimes they do..  

That's all part of it.  When a goat lives to serve as a walking reminder of something you did wrong, it almost always beats the alternative.  

I walk past one of my favorite doe's grave every night.  She's there because I failed her.  I did the best I could with what information I had at the time, but it wasn't good enough.

All I can do take it as a lesson and promise myself never to let that happen again.  That's the most anyone can do.


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## chandasue (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks _everyone_ for posting your struggles and techniques. It's great to learn from everyone, not just from our own mistakes... I'm just going to have to wait to see if any scurs develop, and cross my fingers that they aren't too terrible if they do. 
    (group hug) HAHA!


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