# Curious about my girls, please help if you can.



## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

We have 2 Nigerian Dwarf moms. One(Maude) has 1 Nigi-Pyg buckling, and the other(Momma) has twin Nigi-Pyg kids: doeling and buckling. The bucklings started being bucky little boys as soon as they were old enough. Now we are as sure as we can be(did the belly typing test), that all three girls are prego, due to kid sometime between March and May. Over the last month the 2 moms have lost size around their "waist", no matter how much hay(1/4 bale divided between them), feed(3 cups per day) and extras(corn, sunflower seeds, veggie scraps) we give them. We have been giving them 1/2 tsp goat mineral as well, to supplement their diet.  Could they have some disease? Or could it be due to their internal growing goat babies taking most of the nutrients?


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## jodief100 (Jan 4, 2011)

Have you checked for worms?  Not too likely given it is cold but still a possibility.   Are they peeing and pooing normally?  Are they itchy, external parasites could be the problem as well.  

I recomend giving them free choice on the hay and minerals.  Goats tend to be good at eating what they need.


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## glenolam (Jan 4, 2011)

Am I correct in assuming the sons bred the moms/sisters?  How old is everyone?  When do you think they were bred?

A couple of things I noticed was you are feeding them corn.  Many people say you should never feed goats corn and some say only in moderation.  Here's an article on that: http://www.goatworld.com/articles/nutrition/feedingcorn_gwmf.shtml

How often are you giving them 1/4 bale of hay?  Are they allowed to eat any browse in addition to hay?  I give my hay free choice in feeders and fill it up whenever it's empty.

Goat minerals should also be left out free choice (or - at least as much as they will consume in one day).  Minerals are very important to goats - epecially pregnant ones.

Have you checked their eye lids to determine if they may have a worm infestation?  If you google FAMACHA you'll see a way to do that.

Sorry if you already know all this info, but I think many people here might want a little more info before coming to any conclusions.

ETA - Dang jodie!  I type too slow!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

We have been keeping an eye on their poop for traces of worms, and haven't noticed any signs of them. They are pooping normally, for the most part anyway. Occassionally they will have a clumpy poop instead of the normal pelleted. They are also peeing normally. 
They don't seem very itchy... occassionally they will scratch around their horns with a rear hoof and rub their sides against the stall doors. 

The hay is free choice, and they don't seem to go through more than the 1/5-1/4 bale per day(without spreading it across the floor of the barn. One of the males has fights with the hay,  silly boy.

We were cautioned by a local goat farmer to give only 1/2 - 1 tsp of the mineral to the Nigerian & pygmy crosses...  as, "they tend to over eat the minerals". Was this poor information? and could it be the reason for their thinning "waists"?


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## glenolam (Jan 4, 2011)

You won't be able to notice most worms in their poops - best thing would be to get a fecal sample to a vet or someone who does fecal floats.  If that's not a possibility then check their eye lids.

I haven't heard such a thing as that with minerals; all I've ever heard was to offer it free choice, but I don't have pure nigerians.  I have 1 that's pure pygmy, 2 that are alpine/nubian/nigerian crosses, 1 pure nigerian and two larger sized goats (oberhasli/nubian/alpine breeds).

I'd gently pull down one of their lower eye lids and guage how pink it is.  The darker the better; light pink - white may mean they are very anemic due to a worm infestation.

The amount of scratching/itchyness you describe sounds normal, so I wouldn't think mites or lice at this time.

Also - sunken in sides may either mean they've dropped the kids and are preparing for birth or they're really infested with worms.


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## jodief100 (Jan 4, 2011)

I have never heard of goats overeating the mineral.  They should not have salt in addition to the mineral because they will eat too much of that and then not eat enough mineral.  Goats are notorious hay wasters, it is just something you have to deal with. If they are not wasting hay then they are eating off the ground and that is a good way to get worms.  

Most worms that affect goats will not have visable signs in the feces.  Check the inside of the lower eyelid, if it is white or light pink, they have anemia and that is most often caused by worms.  Nice and red they are fine.  Occasional clumpy poo might be stress, worms or it could be related to the other stuff you are feeding them.  Goats do not respond to rapid changes in diet well. 

Google FAMACHA as glenolam siggested and it will explain in better detail abotu how to check for worms.

-You got me this time glenolam!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

Yes, you would be correct in your assumption. Unfortunately we were unable to seperate the males from our females. So, the boys bred with the 2 older girls and the 1 younger girl. Thankfully the dominant breeder is not related(as far as we know, potentially the same buck as father)
The 2 adult females are roughly 2 yrs old, and the kids are now 5 months old. When we noticed the boys being bucky, it was late October through early November.
The corn is just an occassional snack for most of them, but have been feeding it twice per week to the 5 month old girl(heard that it helps them to reach a good/safe size in time for kidding).
We give them the 1/4 bale of hay, in a homemade feeder, once per day. During the spring through fall they are allowed to browse, infact they are encouraged to, as they were purchased for land clearing. In the winter however, there is sadly no browse for them. We give them veggie scraps since there is this lack of browse.
I will go out and check their eyelids, I thought it would be the same for them as it is with dogs or cats. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

The bit about the mineral, as I was just reminded by one of my resident farmhands, was on the package of goat mineral.


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## glenolam (Jan 4, 2011)

If the bucklings are only 5 mos old, it's not too late to band them and make them wethers.  This would help out in the future - unless you want them for breeding.  In that case I'd trade your does out for unrelated ones.

My hay feeder situation is similar to yours, except I'm able to put an entire bale in and only have to replace it every couple of days.

Have you checked any of their temperatures?  Do any of them seem 'off'?

ETA - interesting about the info on the mineral packaging...never something I would have thought.


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## KellyHM (Jan 4, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I will go out and check their eyelids, I thought it would be the same for them as it is with dogs or cats. Thanks for the heads up.


The only type of worms visible in the poop are tapeworms (and an occasional roundworm), which is true for dogs, cats, goats, poultry, etc.  This is why it's so important to have fecals done, no matter which species you have.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

We would like to keep at least one of the boys(Marly- the one unrelated to 2 of the females) a breeder. We are wanting to grow our herd for land clearing purposes, and 5 is considered quite a small herd for this purpose(especially for 6.5 acres). We also like that Marly has thicker fur/hair, better coat for New England weather.

Sadly, we have not checked their temperatures, as we do not own a proper thermometer for doing so.  The only thing that seems off from their norm, is the smaller waists. All of their barrels are acting & staying normal, and the males are not having the issue with small wiasts at all.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

Just came in from checking their eyelids, and they are all deep pink-red.


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## Ariel301 (Jan 4, 2011)

Other than seemingly having smaller bellies, how are they looking condition wise? Can you see their ribs, spines, and hip bones sticking out? Can you feel that there isn't much padding over their bones? If so, then they are too thin and need more feed. 

I'd use some sort of feeder instead of feeding them hay on the ground. Goats naturally are browsers instead of grazers like horses and cattle, and they naturally prefer to reach up for their food. Also, putting food on the ground like that contaminates it as they walk around in it, so more is wasted and they will be ingesting more worm eggs from eating the dirty hay off the ground. You can make something pretty simple if you are short on money by getting some free wood pallets from a hardware store (many will let you take them away for nothing), making them into a narrow rectangular box with plywood on the short ends (you can put it along a fence also so that you fill it over the fence and don't need to go into the pen) and pry loose some slats to make head holes they can reach through. Make sure there's no sharp parts or nails sticking out, fill it up, and there you go. If you want something fancier, there's plenty of other designs out there, or metal feeders that can be purchased.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Other than seemingly having smaller bellies, how are they looking condition wise? Can you see their ribs, spines, and hip bones sticking out? Can you feel that there isn't much padding over their bones? If so, then they are too thin and need more feed.
> 
> I'd use some sort of feeder instead of feeding them hay on the ground. Goats naturally are browsers instead of grazers like horses and cattle, and they naturally prefer to reach up for their food. Also, putting food on the ground like that contaminates it as they walk around in it, so more is wasted and they will be ingesting more worm eggs from eating the dirty hay off the ground. You can make something pretty simple if you are short on money by getting some free wood pallets from a hardware store (many will let you take them away for nothing), making them into a narrow rectangular box with plywood on the short ends (you can put it along a fence also so that you fill it over the fence and don't need to go into the pen) and pry loose some slats to make head holes they can reach through. Make sure there's no sharp parts or nails sticking out, fill it up, and there you go. If you want something fancier, there's plenty of other designs out there, or metal feeders that can be purchased.


Their hips have been getting bonier, but other than that, they have not been looking "boney". Just the section between their barrel and their hips has gotten quite thin.
As mentioned to one of the other members, we have been putting the hay in a homemade(some 1 inch thick wood strips that have been screwed on around the edges of a cut and moulded section of fence) feeder, but if there is more hay than what they eat, one of the males will fight with the hay and strew it everywhere. Their normal goat feed and any treats(corn, sunflower seeds, veggies) goes into their feed bins which are built into their stall doors.


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## ThornyRidge (Jan 4, 2011)

are you totally for sure they are bred/pregnant... and if so are you 100% on the date due to kid.. that seems to be a big 3 month spread.. the reason I ask is that could it be possible they are closer to kidding and the kids are actually starting to drop.. my nigies get huge and round during pregnancy and it seems like in humans the last few weeks the kids drop to below the belly and you can noticeably see lower belly hanging toward ground and rotund sides seem more svelte.  just a thought.. I would advise giving some more hay.. you want to at least get a goat grain/ration and if indeed they are pregnant want to gradually increase for the does (the boys don't need any)  and give them all the free choice good hay/clean water and loose minerals they want!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

ThornyRidge said:
			
		

> are you totally for sure they are bred/pregnant... and if so are you 100% on the date due to kid.. that seems to be a big 3 month spread.. the reason I ask is that could it be possible they are closer to kidding and the kids are actually starting to drop.. my nigies get huge and round during pregnancy and it seems like in humans the last few weeks the kids drop to below the belly and you can noticeably see lower belly hanging toward ground and rotund sides seem more svelte.  just a thought.. I would advise giving some more hay.. you want to at least get a goat grain/ration and if indeed they are pregnant want to gradually increase for the does (the boys don't need any)  and give them all the free choice good hay/clean water and loose minerals they want!


We have done the Tummy Typing test(unsure if this is at all accurate way of knowing or not), and all three girls seem to check positive(area of tummy just before udders is quite firm). We are not 100% sure about the due date, as the 2 bucklings(1 in particular,Marly) were quite agressive breeders for a month and a half. Hence the 3 month span for guesstimation....


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## glenolam (Jan 4, 2011)

Glad to hear their eye lids are dark pink.  I understand about the hay feeding issues - mine are horrible with their hay as well and most of it becomes bedding.

Once you get to 10 posts you can put a picture up - then we'd be able to see what you're talking about.

What part of New England are you in?  Anywhere near CT?


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Glad to hear their eye lids are dark pink.  I understand about the hay feeding issues - mine are horrible with their hay as well and most of it becomes bedding.
> 
> Once you get to 10 posts you can put a picture up - then we'd be able to see what you're talking about.
> 
> What part of New England are you in?  Anywhere near CT?


We are located in the White Mountains of New Hampshire

I will take a picture or two in the morning.


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## glenolam (Jan 4, 2011)

I was hoping you'd say you were closer - I'd come over and help if needed, but I think that drive might be a little much in this weather! 

Get those pics up - if you've looked around at any other posts you'll see we're all a bunch of freaks when it comes to looking at other people's goats as well as showing our own!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 4, 2011)

glenolam said:
			
		

> I was hoping you'd say you were closer - I'd come over and help if needed, but I think that drive might be a little much in this weather!
> 
> Get those pics up - if you've looked around at any other posts you'll see we're all a bunch of freaks when it comes to looking at other people's goats as well as showing our own!!


  LOL!
  We love seeing other people's goats too!  We wouldn't dream of using the term "freaks", we prefer the term "enthusiasts"!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

I always leave my goats "free choice" minerals. They will never take more than what they need.  IMO.  I am almost positive of that.  I agree with Jodief on that for certain.  (Im talking about goats so please take note of the ALMOST   lol!!)

The scratching and rubbing against walls sound like lice to me.  Not uncommon in the winter at all.  Be careful with pregnant does and lice removal products...FYI...read labels carefully!!!

But when goaties are mineral deficient they will have immune issues as well making them less resistant lice etc etc.  How is there coat condition?? Are they rough..changing color at all?? Copper issues???  I just bolused all mine. I was running into issues with copper deficiencies cuz the high iron in our water.  And we filter our water!! UGGGHHH! And my guys have free choice minerals all they time and they still had issues. But just keep in mind there are many factors in mineral loss so dont disregard free choice minerals totally...its important to them!! 

I agree with the need for pics for sure!!!  We love them!!!  And it would certainly help for us to make a call on condition!!    I know my goats bodies change throughout the day...sometimes they look like they ate a excercise ball!! And other times of the day they look empty!! LOL!!  There are so many factors!! LOLOL!!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Exactly how does one post a picture?  Thought maybe the Img button, but all that did was put 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 in the post... 

We set the mineral out in a plastic shoe box last night and let them eat as much as they wanted... Momma(we will post pics of each once we figure out how), started licking, then shoved her mouth in for a big ol' bite, then decided that was a mistake LOL a few hacks later and she was back to licking.  This morning when they were fed, their "waists"  were looking a lot better, closer to normal. 

As for the scratching we have combed them looking for any sign of eggs, and there is nothing. Also, it isn't constant scratching, just occassionally.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Here is a picture of Momma's twins: Pup(in front) & Cali




in this picture they were 2 1/2 months old


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

This is Momma with her 2 1/2 month old (as of Oct. 21, 2010) twins.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

This is Maude and her 2 3/4 month old(as of October 21, 2010) buckling Marly


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

Yeah!!! You did it!!!  They look great!! They dont look skinny at all!!  

They are soooo cute!!!     Love them black and white!! Little mooo cows!!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Yeah!!! You did it!!!  They look great!! They dont look skinny at all!!
> 
> They are soooo cute!!!     Love them black and white!! Little mooo cows!!!


These pics are from October, we will load current pics in a bit.

LOL  LOVE that you said little moo cows, cause that is exactly what we thaught about Pup!! "Wow, he looks like a baby cow!"
Cali looked like a baby horse and Marly looked like a baby moose!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

A baby moose!!!      Is their actually such a thing!!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

yes, there are baby moose! LOL


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Maude's waist 1-5-2011





Momma's waist 1-5-2011





Cali 1-5-2011





Pup 1-5-2011





Marly 1-5-2011


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

So who is pregnant???  Im confused now...I should go to the orignal post.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> So who is pregnant???  Im confused now...I should go to the orignal post.


We are fairly positive, after doing the Tummy Typing test, that both does(Momma & Maude) and the doeling(Cali) are pregnant. We are concerned about Cali's being pregnant, as she is only 5 months old. We have been attempting to get info on how to help her reach a safe size by kidding time, and how we can help her if she ends up having a problem. Very difficult to find info on pregnancy with the quite young.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

She is very young 5 months old?? Ekks! Im not sure on a safe weight for that breed though???I have Toggies which are a large dairy breed.  And their safe weight is at about 80-100lbs.  Which takes them about 7-8 months to get there..but I always wait for the following season to breed.

Im sorry...Im sure its been done time and time again...just not always best...but accidents happen and we must deal with the cards on the table.

Was the buck much larger than they are?? That will play a factor in the babies size.  Hopefully she wont have a very large baby and things will go smoothley!  

Did you google breeding ages for her at all????


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## glenolam (Jan 5, 2011)

Beautiful goats!!! Absolutely georgous!

IMO, none of them look bad at all.  Yes, you should be a bit concernced with the doeling's age, but I don't think you need to do much more than make sure she maintains her body condition.  There's nothing anyone can do to make her grow faster, so just try to keep her in good shape.

Again, I don't have experience with young doelings giving birth, but if I were in your shoes I'd just keep her as happy and healty as I could - fresh minerals daily, watch her poop, give probios and make sure you either have on hand the number of a good goat vet (VERY hard to find now adays!) or someone close by who can come over and help if needed.

As soon as they kid, put those boys elsewhere so they don't impregnate the new kids (I'm sure you knew that but I just felt better saying it).


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> She is very young 5 months old?? Ekks! Im not sure on a safe weight for that breed though???I have Toggies which are a large dairy breed.  And their safe weight is at about 80-100lbs.  Which takes them about 7-8 months to get there..but I always wait for the following season to breed.
> 
> Im sorry...Im sure its been done time and time again...just not always best...but accidents happen and we must deal with the cards on the table.
> 
> ...


Eeks exactly! Cali getting pregnant was a complete oops! We don't have 2 seperate fenced in areas, so there was no way to keep the boys away from her.
Thankfully her only contact with bucks were with the two bucklings(one is just 1 week older than her). The three kids are nigi-pyg crosses, and the moms are nigerians.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

glenolam said:
			
		

> Beautiful goats!!! Absolutely georgous!
> 
> IMO, none of them look bad at all.  Yes, you should be a bit concernced with the doeling's age, but I don't think you need to do much more than make sure she maintains her body condition.  There's nothing anyone can do to make her grow faster, so just try to keep her in good shape.
> 
> ...


Thank you!!
will do! 
and you can be sure that our little bucky boys will be moved when the time comes!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

So the buck that bred her was a pgymy too...well thats good to know!! A little mini too!!     Thats a good start.  

I agree with Glenolam though...not much you can do but keep her healthy and happy.  As she stated...you cant really make her age faster by packing on the pounds.  Make sense...I would just let nature take its course...and certainly get a vet or expirenced goat person on board when she goes into labor if theres an issue.

But Ive never had a young girl pregnant either.  The only other thing I can suggest is to post a new post...asking that exact question...whats the safe wieght for a 5mos old pgymy to be pregnant.

I am positive there are all kinds of people that had that expirence and can help!!  Or in the least steer you in the right direction!

I wish I had more info for you...if I find something I will definately send it your way!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

We will need to check with some of the other farms near us as to who the local livestock vet is...


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

I know its hard to find goat vets around...believe me...    I know that the ol timers around these parts have more expirence with farm animals and deliveries than some of the new vets coming out of school...so dont be afraid to ask...you know us in NH...you can sit in a diner..and chat with an ol timer for hours about his farm!!  Believe me...I learned alot..and got alot of great deals chatting away with the good ol boys!!!  

But Another resource in UNH Coop Ext.  They have so much information and I certain would have a lead for a large animal vet in your area.  

Mine comes to our farm and does everything here...but he's only 25 miles east of us...so its not that bad...1/2 hour drive...stinks in an er..but....theres not to many choices.

Good luck...Im sure things will be just fine!!  If it was sooo bad..I dont think nature would allow it to happen...I have faith in stuff like that!!! 

Dont worry yourself sick over it for certain!!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Thanks for the reminder about the UNH Ext.! 

We will do our best to not worry over her and just do what we can to make her comfy. The silly girl still squeezes herself uner her stall door to get over to her mom's stall, and then squeezes under her mom's door to curl up with her... and try to get a quick milking from mom.


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## PattySh (Jan 5, 2011)

What about making a little stall for the boys inside the barn, let the girls out part day then the boys. That is what my friend does. If the little one isn't preggers she will be, when we had pygmies and nigerians they breed all year long not just fall/early winter. They really can't be trusted with males at any time of the year unless you want them bred.  I'd seperate all males out by 8 weeks. They breed really young. My daughter's nigerian dwarf Natalie(a rescue) came to us bred super young, less than 5 months old and 1/3 her adult size now and delivered very tiny twins but did ok. She got accidently bred to a LARGE Angora one year and the huge leggy kid delivered without issue (Angora jumped the fence) the same goat this year (I think she's about 9 now and was unbred for about 4 yrs) had a terrible delivery, single pretty small  baby all twisted up in there and then mastitis  and almost died so you never know. Her daughter  born early May is now larger than her mother when she delivered her first little kids but I don't feel she is large enough to breed.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 5, 2011)

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reminder about the UNH Ext.!
> 
> We will do our best to not worry over her and just do what we can to make her comfy. The silly girl still squeezes herself uner her stall door to get over to her mom's stall, and then squeezes under her mom's door to curl up with her... and try to get a quick milking from mom.


Awwwww!!! Thats not silly!! Thats smarts!!!!


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 5, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


we just can't figure out how she is still able to squeeze under the door.... starting to think that she has a collapsable ribcage like a rat. LOL


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## PattySh (Jan 5, 2011)

Natalie's little girl is Nigerian/Apine/Toggenberg and is a wild child. I don't want her bred and she has learned to jump right over the stall doorway to get out and in with the buck who is in the barn for the winter. She also did that as a newly weaned kid looking for a bottle but it's been many months so I thought she was too heavy to do it now. Expen panels were installed this week  over the doorway to keep the little bugger in as she is in heat again. When my daughter had pygmies her fattest goat Yvette was the one to crawl under the chain link fence to escape, boy was she some mad when we installed dog chain link panels with a bottom pole attached and she couldn't get out! 

 I have been thinking back to when we got Natalie kinda of dumped on us pregnant. We were not prepared at all, did not have goats at the time  and put her in a chain link kennel with a dog house!I think the thing to do with your young doeling is not to overfeed her, feed little grain so the kid stays smallish. When Natalie came pregnant it was summer so we didn't feed grain. Because it's winter I would suggest minimal grain with all the hay she'll eat. If you have seen the boys mounting her I would say it's a safe bet that she is bred. Natalie grew taller and larger AFTER she had those first kids. When she had them she was pretty little. I'd go ahead and order a kid puller (and lubricant and gloves)  (www.Jeffers.com)just incase. I would have saved 2 vet bills last year  so I have one for this year. I'll try to look for pics  of Nat's kids not sure if I lost them when my old computer fried.

edited to add Ifound a pic, just remembered to check my other computer and there it was, Natalie and her first kids, she was about 8 months or so when she had them. Yay for jump drive! Oh they were so cute, darker one was a doeling, black and white  one a buckling.


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## Livinwright Farm (Jan 6, 2011)

PattySh~ AWWW!!! Cutie McCutenesses!!!


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## aggieterpkatie (Jan 6, 2011)

Its' tricky feeding a young pregnant animal.  You don't want to feed too much/too high protein because the kids will grow too large.  I'd also agree to just feed to maintain her condition.  Good luck with everything.


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