# The Education of Ben



## Beekissed

********Warning:  Thread may contain graphic pics of blood, innards, dead animals, etc., as we live on and work a homestead, on which this pup's job is integral. If this offends you, you might want to leave the thread now. *******

Thought I'd move my training of our 2.5 mo. old LGD pup over to a new thread and quit dominating Southern's training thread.  I was starting to gush and goo over the pup and that's not instructional at all.  

Will update as I go along.  Today was the first day Ben didn't respond to a correction when told to do something, so I now have two areas on which to concentrate...stay and come, particularly when faced with things that excite him.

Tomorrow I work on his harness that will carry his receiver for our electric containment system so that it fits him better.  After today and his brief jaunt through the woods he is no longer trusted to stay with my older dog, so must be placed on our system earlier than I had anticipated.

Today he had an exciting day...the first day of archery season with fresh game all around, blood and gore galore and everything a puppy could want.  This was his waterloo, as he became too excited by it all to obey simple commands.  He is currently doing a time out on a tie out for his transgressions.  I will release him tomorrow morning and will work with him this week on these areas.

Pics of his day today...he had a big day full of new things and a lot of activity here, so I wasn't real hard on him when he slipped up, but he definitely knew he had done wrong.  Smart pup!


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## Beekissed

The addition of raw meat and offal to Ben's diet seemed to help grow in a flash and he's twice the size he was just a few short weeks ago.   It seems impossible that we just got him three weeks ago!  

Ben is now on the electric system, a little earlier than I would have liked to put him on it but he was growing bold enough to enter the woods around the meadow and this is hunting season.  Don't want to lose him.  He's responding well to the corrections of the collar and is a wise little dog...learns quick.  I noticed he needs a much higher setting on his collar to even feel the corrections...my other dogs used the training mode correction all their lives, but this pup is already up to the fourth setting.  I hope he doesn't become too desensitized to that as there's not much higher one can go.  

There for a week I didn't have time to pay much attention to him and he got a little streak of rebellion going on but snapped right back into listening to my corrections this morning.  This afternoon I'll be working with him on a long line to start official training on come, stay, leave it, etc.

He's still doing great around the chickens, still follows me closely wherever I go and responds pretty quickly to my commands when he knows I'm paying attention....when I'm working or distracted he will try to sneak past me on some things, much like most kids. 

I'm still pleased as punch over this little guy and am very happy to have found him.  Him and Jake are getting much play time each morning and are eating close to one another without any signs of food aggression from either dog.  

Meanwhile he has been slipping into the coop and licking up any fermented feed left behind by the chickens....which is kind of a good thing, I guess, because it leaves his poops without any smell at all!  Win!  Could be why he's putting on weight like crazy.  

Can't wait to work on his obedience later today!


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## Beekissed

I'm so glad I got this pup!  He is forcing my old dog to play all the time, which gives Ol' Jake more exercise and will keep him more active in his old age.  It's fun to watch them chasing, wrestling and tugging at one another...Jake has been lonely too long, so this pup is a gift for him right now.  

Cleaned out their dog house this past week, filled it with fresh, sweet hay and washed their cushy dog bed.  Fixed the heavy towel across the front of the door to keep out too much cold air.  Now Jake has someone to keep him warm this winter...what a blessing!  

I had built this dog house big enough for two, on the back of the chicken coop.  Built it from pallets and stuffed the pallets with hay, then covered the pallets with boards to protect the hay insulation.  The floor and the ceiling is insulated in just such a manner, though the wall they share with the chickens is not...I want them to be able to hear everything going on in there.  

The front of the house has a wall to block the wind and an overhang...sort of like a little porch over the entrance to the dog house and coop.  This keeps direct wind and rain from blowing into both entrances and gives them a dry place in front of their winter entrances...no mud, in other words. 

All that translates into the dogs sleeping cheek by jowl to the chickens, having a warm place to be while they guard on a cold winter's night, when they aren't out patrolling.  

I'm glad Jake will have a partner this winter, even if he is really young.  Just his presence in the area will help keep the bears, coyotes, bobcats and foxes from moving into this old dog's territory. 

Little Ben is learning good things from Jake...when to bark at danger, when to be quiet, when to pay attention to the chickens and when to ignore them, how to scavenge and forage on the property for whatever natural food that comes their way.  I saw the pup carrying a deer tail bone the other day to the edge of the woods and digging a hole to bury it.   

He is doing well on the electric containment system and has been treating the chickens like part of the landscape, which is just perfect.  Later on I expect he'll bond with them a little, the same as Jake, and get anxious when I handle them and then butcher...Jake pouts about that from afar now and gives me the stink eye the rest of the day.


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## bonbean01

Ben is beautiful!!!!  Makes me think of my Keera when she was that age...loveable, energetic, naughty at times but a bundle of joy and love  

Then came the puppy naughty stage with chasing the sheep and that was a daily challenge....happy to say that persistence has paid off and when she turned a year old in July, rules finally clicked in her brain and now I trust her with the sheep and no more time outs.  Corrections were just not working...being isolated from "her" herd worked like magic. 

Every dog is unique....I have learned that the books on raising a LGD are pretty general....not surprised I'd get a pup who defied the books...both my children did too


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## Beekissed

Bonbean, did you just leave him out with the sheep and then separate them when he chased?  I've heard of folks using a stick hanging crosswise to their collar that bangs against their legs and trips them when they chase the sheep...don't know if that works or not. 

This pup is now ignoring the chickens...but considering different stages and such, I may have to do additional training there.


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## bonbean01

I separated her in the smaller paddock and when the sheep left for the pasture and she was left behind, she cried and whined...it was pitiful.  I took her out to them later and watched and first time she went to chase, got her and leashed her and took her back home alone...one chance only and then isolation from them.  Did not take too many times for her to put it together that chasing meant she couldn't be with her herd. 

I had considered an electric shock collar or dangle stick....but ended up using neither...my corrections didn't faze her, but being away from her sheep worked.

Hope this helps with Ben!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Following this thread!  I like reading about your adventures and results with training Ben! He sounds like a wonderful dog!


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## Beekissed

Bonbean, it surely does.  I'm betting that these breeds bond with sheep more than chickens, though.  I know my older dog LOVED the sheep, played with them, licked their butts, etc.  He merely gets anxious when I kill the chickens or make them squawk, but he doesn't suffer much if he has to be separate from them.  I wonder if this pup will attach to the chickens?  They say Anatolians are more likely to attach to a chicken flock, so it will be interesting to see.  

@BlessedWithGoats, I'm glad to see you here! It helps to have someone to bounce ideas off of when striking out into new territory and there are two parts of this dog's breeding of which I'm not familiar...Anatolian and Maremma.  I sure hope I don't mess him up!  He's not quite as speedy to learn as my previous dogs, so he make take more repetition.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Beekissed said:


> Bonbean, it surely does.  I'm betting that these breeds bond with sheep more than chickens, though.  I know my older dog LOVED the sheep, played with them, licked their butts, etc.  He merely gets anxious when I kill the chickens or make them squawk, but he doesn't suffer much if he has to be separate from them.  I wonder if this pup will attach to the chickens?  They say Anatolians are more likely to attach to a chicken flock, so it will be interesting to see.
> 
> @BlessedWithGoats, I'm glad to see you here! It helps to have someone to bounce ideas off of when striking out into new territory and there are two parts of this dog's breeding of which I'm not familiar...Anatolian and Maremma.  I sure hope I don't mess him up!  He's not quite as speedy to learn as my previous dogs, so he make take more repetition.


 Thanks @Beekissed! This is a great learning opportunity for me as well, as I am new to LGD's, and am working on getting my almost 2 year old LGD flock trained. Sometimes he does well, other times he doesn't. :T I believe in him though! So I'll probably be able to use some of the methods that you use for Ben, to help Compadre be where he needs to be.  Thanks again!! 
Aww, I don't believe that you would "mess him up"... Your pup sounds like he is in capable hands! And we can learn from each other, and from our experience!


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## Beekissed

Oh, how nice!!!! We can learn together!!   That makes me excited, because I've never really had to train this kind of breed from a pup before, so it's a huge learning curve for me.  

Last evening I did another training session with him on walking on the leash...he had a problem walking on the left side, always wanted to be on the right.  I was trying to teach him to walk on either side, whatever side I needed him to be on.  He already grasps the concept that he is not to be out front...he's been glued to my right calf wherever we walk since the day he arrived.  

We also worked on sit/stay and the technique I used from a YT vid~after much searching for one that made the most sense~was enormously helpful.  It worked!  And it worked better than anything I had tried in the past.  

We worked on "down" or "lie down"...he's none too consistent on that, but I'll keep trying.  I want to be able to tell him "down" from a distance and have him lie down immediately.  I'd also like to have him sit/stay from a distance as well.  I have a feeling this is going to take much, much repetition....as with most training.  

I'm amazed at how quickly he learned our feeding ritual of sitting or lying down calmly before being fed.  The older dog demonstrates it well and the pup just naturally has followed suit.  He automatically sits calmly now when I get his scoop of food and has learned to not rush into Jake's food when I feed Jake first.  He will sit calmly and wait until I go back to the feed tote and get his portion and is careful to not look at the feed in my hand...that's something he learned pretty quickly, to not have an excited stance when waiting to be fed.

I also worked with him and Aliza, my 18 mo. old granddaughter, while he is eating.  She and I sat next to them as they ate, I put my hands in the food and even put my face near the food~on both dogs~and then I reclaimed the food...made him wait...then gave it back him. I watched the responses I got each time.  I let her put her hand down and pick up pieces of the food, then feed them to him.  I'm trying to make these dogs pretty bomb proof when it comes to little children.  Later on I'll teach Aliza, when she can better comprehend it, about keeping a respectful distance from dogs while they are eating, but I really want these dogs to understand that real little kids don't always know how to keep distance and what their behavior should be if they do not.  I'm also working on this pup about getting in her face...she's the only human his size and he immediately wants to sniff her face or mouth her hair when she bends over or sits on the ground...he's just trying to play but his teeth and nails are too sharp, so he has to learn respect in those areas.  

Also worked with him on sitting calmly while the collars are being placed around his neck and then replaced later on, etc.  He does VERY well with that.    

Now I'm working on potty training.  Yep, potty training an outside dog.    My brother brought his house dog out here and she let fly wherever she was, which are now the places the pup wants to poop as well, even though I had cleaned up all her piles and moved them to the appropriate place.  Yesterday I stepped it up with putting cinnamon powder down in all previous poop spots that were not in the desired location....the pup got a face full of cinnamon right away.  

My next step on that is to wait until he is done eating, then walk him to the poop area and wait with him.  As with most young things, they want to poop right after they have breakfast, so this will be a good time to show him~again!~where he is allowed to poop.  

I noticed that, after having a training session last evening, he was much more calm and respectful when greeting me this morning.  He is also slowly learning the electric fence boundary...he's taking much more learning on that than any other dog I've ever had.  He also is taking a more powerful reminder...maybe due to the looseness of the skin around his neck?  

All in all he seems to be coming along really well and is currently fully trustworthy around the chickens.  Saw one sunbathing right next to him this morning and he just walked around it...would have been a perfect time to jump a chicken, while it lay sprawled all over the grass, but he just politely stepped around and then sat down.  

I'm hoping all this early exposure to the chickens and watching how Jake is around them will fully imprint upon him that they are just part of the landscape and not to be played with.  So far, so good!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Good boy Ben!! He sounds like he is doing super wonderful with his training!! 
I'd also like to have my dog be able to do a sit/stay/down from a distance!  I'm currently working with Compadre to get him to walk with me, he's doing pretty good with that, and also to get him in the goat pen...   He knows sit pretty well, I do have to practice with him in the face of distractions though. 
Keep being a great boy Ben! You are a superstar!  And good boy Jake, for being a great role model for him!


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## frustratedearthmother

Glad he's doing so well!


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## Beekissed

Pics of Ben...the brown on his face is cinnamon.  He always wears such a solemn little expression...rarely do I see this pup with a gleeful, puppy-like face or mode.  Just his personality, I guess.   He's a real sweety.  







Jake, his deer leg and little Ben...who is quickly gaining in size.


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## Southern by choice

Ben sure is a cutie!
Is Ben a companion dog or a LGD?
I notice the level of obedience training you are doing with him...


Beekissed said:


> We worked on "down" or "lie down"...he's none too consistent on that, but I'll keep trying. I want to be able to tell him "down" from a distance and have him lie down immediately. I'd also like to have him sit/stay from a distance as well. I have a feeling this is going to take much, much repetition....as with most training.



I have been offline for awhile. How old is Ben?


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> Ben sure is a cutie!
> Is Ben a companion dog or a LGD?
> I notice the level of obedience training you are doing with him...
> 
> 
> I have been offline for awhile. How old is Ben?



Ben is both a companion dog and a LGD...he is currently 3 mo. old.  Since he is working in close proximity to where we live and work, he needs to have the necessary social skills  when our extensive family visit and when my 83 yr old mother takes Jake and him to the mailbox with her.  She's tiny and easy knocked over or her skin torn easily by paws and claws, so the need to have him act calmly and obediently around her is imperative for our comfortable living here. 

His only livestock to guard are the chickens and it's likely he won't bond too much with the flock, so we are pretty satisfied if he just does the job of guarding the territory to which he is confined...which is just above the house and centered around the garden and chicken coop and their range.

The reason I want him to be able to lie down or stay from a distance is for when small children or my mother are in his boundary, which happens pretty much daily.  There's nothing more terrifying for the elderly and the little than to have a large dog thundering gleefully towards them across the yard...and it's just easier to train him than it is to train them on how to deal with it.    Jake is the easiest dog to order around in the world and my mother still can't remember to stand up to him on certain things...she does just the opposite of what I show her to do each and every time.  Gets the same results, too, but she still persists in that behavior.


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## Baymule

Ben is such a handsome boy! I will be keeping up with this thread.


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## Beekissed

Ben has discovered the eggs in the coop are tasty....and earned himself a coop blocker on his collar. It's just a lightweight piece of a broom handle, but it keeps him from going in the pop doors.  






Works like a charm!

His training is coming along and he continues to progress in sit/stay and down/stay, walks well on either side and comes very well.  Worked on "stay" in the truck and he did great, also did great when told to unload from the truck.  He is showing good progress each day, doing better than the day before.  This evening I provided distractions and he did very well once again.


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## Beekissed

Ben is doing very well with all of his training except one thing....pooping in the wrong place in the yard.  I keep scooping it and placing it where it should go and covering his last poo spot with cinnamon to discourage another drop, but he just isn't getting it.  I've led him over there after his meal and waited, but he doesn't go when I'm there.  Later on I'll get back to the house and look out the window to see him going in the wrong place once again.  

Anybody got any tips for this?  

Other than that he is doing great....he's much quicker to respond to all that he knows~sit, lie down, stay sit, stay lie down, come, back and the general correction sound of "AAAAaaaaaaaattttttt!!!"   

He's now lying down to get his food....he went from sitting patiently and calmly, then I put him in a lie down position before he gets his food...he'll be expected to do that each time before he gets fed until he automatically lies down to wait each time.  Eventually he will be expected to lie down/stay until I tell him he can have his food, just like Jake.  

I know that doesn't seem important to most folks, but both dogs tend to gobble their food and if they have to wait calmly before commencing, they tend to eat slower.  

I want him to be able to display calm behavior at feeding time, before he gets so big that a dancing, jumping dog becomes a danger to anyone there....Aliza likes to go with me to feed the dogs, so waiting calmly and still is important for them, for us.  

Today he swallowed a small squirrel in under 5 min.....a whole squirrel.  Yesterday he swallowed a squirrel skin and head in under 15 seconds...didn't even chew much at all.    He also snatched chicken bones and guts right from under Jake's nose today and Jake let him....this tells me that Jake is more than willing to let this pup take over later on.  That's okay with me, as I need this pup to be the dominant dog.  Jake is much too friendly to stray dogs and I really need this pup to take a more territorial stance to these dogs.  This may keep me from having to kill stray dogs in the future...namely, my neighbor's dogs, which he lets run loose..one is a known chicken killer.

My egg count is up...no more pups slipping into the coop to steal an egg or two.


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## Baymule

My GP, Paris was a chicken killer and was given to us. Her previous owners actually GAVE her eggs for a treat! Who does that??? So, while I was able to turn her around on the chicken killing and she became a chicken guard, she would still slip in for an egg. She knew she wasn't supposed to, she looked around, then went in the coop for an egg. I love your broomstick idea! I watched her squeeze through a 9"x12" hole from the run into the coop. Right now she is in the back yard, we are working on fencing, then will start on 3 sided sheds for our someday sheep.


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## Beekissed

I actually do that....  Not for this little fella, but all my dogs have always gotten the too poopy or cracked eggs from the coop.  My theory is they will eat eggs anyway if they can get them, so giving them doesn't cause them to do so....as evidenced by this little pup, that had never been handed an egg before.  

That's just a natural thing, much like chickens eating any cracked or crushed eggs in the nest.  Feeding the chickens eggs doesn't turn them into egg eaters no more than feeding eggs to dogs turn them into egg thieves....both creatures already eat these things on instinct. 

Any dog worth his salt will steal and eat an egg when given the opportunity.    When Ben gets too big to get through the pop door I'll no longer have to worry about it.  Any egg they find out in the bush is fair game and they are welcome to them.


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## Beekissed

Not a great pic as the sun was too bright and I took this from far away...I was afraid to go outside or he would get off the chair.  I love his little solemn face as he sits on the glider, the rocker and even in a lawn chair.  He has taken to doing this lately and he looks so serious as he gazes out across the land...could be his way of getting a better visual of the meadow.  







I've been away for the past few days, so missed on his daily training sessions.  I'm betting he'll do just fine, though, as he seems to grow more focused the older he gets.

He and Jake have been bonding well and seems to have formed an easy relationship.  Jake needed an alpha pack member besides myself and he's always willing to play second fiddle...that's his nature and he does that job well.  I'm hoping Ben will move into my second alpha position and claim it so I'll have at least one dog here that wards off stray dogs when I'm not around.  That's my worst predator here, though it's not frequent...but promises to be more so now that we have a new neighbor who lets his chicken killing dogs roam the land.  

The coyotes are present and a real danger, but as of yet they do not enter the meadow or approach the coop like the stray dogs will and do.  

Ben is growing well and filling out.  My son worked with him on where to poop this past week while I was out of town and it seems to have worked, but I'll be reinforcing that this week to make sure.  

This pup is not real lightning quick to respond to commands or training like our last dog was as a pup, so it's taken an adjustment on my part to exercise patience and wait on him to comply.  He usually gets it but takes a few moments to put it together and do the action requested.  

Each dog is unique, I've found, and cannot be expected to react like another or fill the shoes of another.  Ben is just fine the way he is and I think he'll be a great dog in his own right before it's all said and done.  He's very sweet, quiet and calm and I love that part of him...I love it that he tries to please me.  I can work with a dog like that.


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## Southern by choice

I wouldn't worry so much about the whole poo in the woods thing.  He is 3 months old... soon enough on his own he will be going in the woods or boundary lines etc. They do this on their own with out having to be taught. As he natures he will pee on everything and especially over top of where something else peed or pood. Normal- and it is what you want. 

When our goat kids are born and they are bebopping around the dogs clean up after them and wherever they pee the dogs immediately pee over the spot.  

You LGD's know instinctively some things. One is when they are still too small and lack power strength and ability to do their future job. I am wondering if the woods is still a place he may not want to go off into by himself because he knows he cannot do anything. They tend to stay in a known safer area as pups. 

In one of my Pyr pup posts I showed an example of this. Where pup is active and learning the job BUT when the adult stock let out a certain bark the pups stayed back and stayed put while the adults took off to investigate.

Remember these dogs are extremely different and therefore trained differently - always work within the nature of the LGD. Typical dog training is against the nature of the LGD. It is for pets.
If he was "lightening quick" to take commands I would be very concerned. People who do this, insist on first time obedience, often ruin their dogs. Totally against their nature.

I am so glad you take owning and working with Ben so seriously. It is a breathe of fresh air. 


I love how they climb to the tallest thing they can so they can watch everything. LOL we got our spools for the goats but the dogs think it is "their" post!  I need more spools.


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## Beekissed

Southern, your input is invaluable!!  Thank you for helping me to understand the nature of the LGD breed.  I'm still wrapping my mind around the difference between just a mix of the LGD breed and a full mix of all three of the major breeds.  I'm finding out he's a little amazing in his own right and just what I needed at this time in my life...a slower, more calm dog that's as slow as I am!  

He's not really scared of the woods, as he's been trying to roam off into those since his first week here and the place he needs to poop isn't full on in the woods but just a small cleared area at the border....only about 10 yds from the chicken coop.  It's just a place we never walk across that borders the woods that Jake has always used.  We keep the high weeds cleared there so they can easily use it.  

One thing did work...I took the advice of someone on the TEG thread about containing him after his morning feeding until he grew uncomfortable, then taking him to the right area and giving positive reinforcement when he went there.  My son did this for him while I was away this weekend and it seems to have worked in just one try....no more fresh piles in the yard!!!  

So far.  

Every other time I couldn't catch him as he was going and take him there, so maybe getting this opportunity to take him when he actually needed to go was all he really needed to understand the concept.  Genius!  

I'll definitely take your advice as I continue to train this pup on the basics.  I don't really expect any of my dogs to be obedience champions, just know when to behave and remain calm when needed.  In light of what you've told me I'm even more amazed at the progress he's made in this training, but as you've probably guessed, he's putting his own twist on the training...and that's okay with me.  I want him to be confident, strong(though not strong willed or stubborn) and able to use his own mind on things....my first dog was like that and I grew to trust his judgement immensely.  

He does seem to love those high points so I may construct him one of his own...I'll see if I can't get my hands on one of those spools in the meanwhile.  

I'll tell you this...he's one of the sweetest dogs I've ever had the pleasure to meet.  Not in a fawning all over you for affection kind of way but in a still, calm and quiet sort of way he has of waiting, of approaching and of being near me or when I handle him...not a bit squirmy or overly excited like a typical puppy.  I think it would be real easy to break this dog's spirit if a person wasn't real careful...he's got a sweet, devoted little heart on him.


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## Beekissed

Ben is coming right along in his training, so I thought I'd report progress here, along with a few pics.















He continues to be a natural at walking at heel...I don't train or require it but that's where he stays glued whenever I'm in his boundary.  It's kind of cute.  If it sit, often he wants to lie down with his body touching mine or even on my shoes...not sure if that's a claiming gesture but I hope not.  It doesn't seem to be...just seems like he wants to be close.  He's a real sap for attention but doesn't demand it like some dogs.  

He walks well on the leash due to his natural heel position...that needs no work at all, though I still do it now and again to see if he's still inclined to walk well.  He's also learning step by step our feeding ritual of the dog lying down calmly to be fed.  First he sat calmly...he didn't have to be told, he just mimicked Jake's behavior.  Now I'm having Jake demonstrate the lie down wait and the pup~with a little coaching (can you lay down today, Ben?...and he did!)~now knows to do that too...it's just a brief hold but that's definite forward progress.  As he repeats this every day and as he ages, he'll be able to hold that position for longer without getting too excited to lie still.  He's an extraordinarily calm pup in the first place, so all of this is just natural to him...this is the easy stuff for both of us.  

He struggled a little for his first nail clipping but soon realized I wasn't trapping him or hurting his legs, then he sat on my lap and let me finish out without too much movement.  I reinforced that grooming time with much lovin' and "good boys" and he got to be on my lap, which is just heaven to him.   I brushed him right after and he loved that as well.  

The nail clipping will help us get through this paw thing he's doing, where he's wanting to put his paw on you if he can't get your attention at times...I'm trying to teach him not to do that.  He didn't do it any today, so that's progress...he had plenty of opportunity to do so but did not.  

Had some great bonding time with him throughout the training and grooming moments with him today.  Didn't get a chance to work with him about where to poop today but saw him pooping right beside the desired area, which got him a "Good boy, Ben!!!" yelled across the yard.   Yesterday I had scooped poop from the wrong place, used negative tones with him while doing so, then took him along to the right place and praised him when I dropped his load there.  I'm hoping the near poop was the result of that ritual...that shows promise if that is so.  

Ben had a good day today...only one infraction and that one isn't really his fault, so will put it down to confusion over the boundaries and how they are reinforced.


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## babsbag

Both of my LGDs give me their paws, but not for attention, it is more of a greeting. I always take it and tell them what good dogs they are.  My border collies don't do it, it is definitely an LGD thing.  I understand not wanting that big paw on your arm or back, those nails can hurt sometimes, but it is endearing in its own doggie way so I tolerate it, for some reason telling them "no" or ignoring it seems like an insult.


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## Mike CHS

My Aussie will do the greet with his paw thing but our Border Collie will just sit and wait for the petting that he expects whenever you get near him.


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## goatgurl

my Katie will wrap her foot and leg around me when I'm sitting on a bucket in the goat yard.  she only does it when I'm sitting down.  cracks me up, i think of it as a puppy hug.


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## Beekissed

babsbag said:


> Both of my LGDs give me their paws, but not for attention, it is more of a greeting. I always take it and tell them what good dogs they are.  My border collies don't do it, it is definitely an LGD thing.  I understand not wanting that big paw on your arm or back, those nails can hurt sometimes, but it is endearing in its own doggie way so I tolerate it, for some reason telling them "no" or ignoring it seems like an insult.



My Lucy (GP mix) did it too and I didn't mind it much...until I started taking her to the nursing home to visit the old folks, who loved her so very much.  I had to really watch that paw then...old skin tears like tissue paper.   I had already taught Jake to "shake" and "high five" by then but wished I hadn't, as both dogs would use those paws to get attention when people stopped a petting session.  

I know this pup is doing it in a harmless fashion also but it's still not a good thing to start or encourage...most folks don't want a dirty dog's paw on their pant leg, nor do they want those claws on their skin.  LGD or not, he's got to learn proper socialization in this setting.  Maybe if he spent his entire life out on the range with a herd that wouldn't ever be an issue but here he is guarding close to a home where people visit in his boundary quite frequently.  

I have no doubt that he can learn when it's okay and when it's not...he's a smart little dog.  This morning he laid down for his food without having any cues....VERY smart, very quick to understand what I want from him on many things.  I give him lots of good reinforcement when he picks up on things like that and it seems to keep him working for that approval.


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## bonbean01

Ben is beautiful!  Reminds me of my girl at that age, and yes...these are very special dogs for sure  
Had to change my avatar since Keera is no longer a little puppy....although on our first chilly mornings...she appeared to be very young again...LOL

Enjoying reading about the Education of Ben, and that pic of him in the chair is priceless


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## Latestarter

My Anatolian/Pyr mix always gives me his paw by way of greeting and letting me know he loves me. Almost like (but more meaningful than when) men shake hands on greeting or folks giving a hug on greeting. When I get down on a knee, he will sometimes give me both paws, sit up on his haunches and bury his head in my chest or arm pit while I scratch his neck & behind his ears. That is such close bonding. I don't know, but for me, telling him no or not allowing him to greet me like that would be like walking up to your spouse and when they try to hug/kiss you, saying no and turning them away. It's NOT like a typical pet dog giving a paw to be cute or demanding attention. It's conveying THEIR affection to and for us. Now, you can say "there's a time and place for that sort of thing," But the dog is NOT human, and doesn't understand that, they love us 100%, 24/7, and who would want it any other way?

Of course I understand your point as well, with thin skinned older folks... Mine rarely offers his paw to anyone else. I think he's offered it to my oldest daughter once. He will however press up against folks he likes, and that seems to me to be more hazardous than the paw as he's very strong, and very big/heavy. Mel has always been ultra gentle with his paws, and he's ~110-115 pounds now, and is almost 10 mos old. But if you aren't prepared, he can push you across a room or push you over if you aren't prepared for his body press.


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## Beekissed

> I don't know, but for me, telling him no or not allowing him to greet me like that would be like walking up to your spouse and when they try to hug/kiss you, saying no and turning them away. It's NOT like a typical pet dog giving a paw to be cute or demanding attention. It's conveying THEIR affection to and for us. Now, you can say "there's a time and place for that sort of thing," But the dog is NOT human, and doesn't understand that, they love us 100%, 24/7, and* who would want it any other way?*



Well....I would.    I'm a sucker for humanizing animals as much as the next person...I think it's a trap we all fall into, but as you say..the dog is NOT HUMAN, so what we interpret as affection or an affectionate greeting~simply because humans touch with their hands~ could mean something altogether different to them.  Who's to say?  

To turn and see it from another perspective...it would be like a child that walks up and sniffs a person's butt when they arrive and trying to explain it away as a friendly greeting.  From a stranger's eyes it would be totally inappropriate, but we may see it as merely being affectionate.  

It makes as much sense to me to "doganize" a child as it does to humanize a puppy.  

  In the dog world placing a paw on the neck or back of another pack member can mean a dominance move during play or during the tussles they have to decide which dog is dominant over another.  It can be used by a mother to subdue a pup that is getting too rambunctious in play or to get its attention for another purpose.  

To me, the paw offered in friendliness to a human is much like licking a person's face~one of the things that dogs do to communicate pleasure or acceptance of another...but not always desirable to humans.  We are NOT DOGS as much as they are NOT HUMANS, so those boundaries need to be established early on.  There is a time and a place for those kinds of things and a pup can learn those times much like they can learn anything else.  I can't imagine the LGD breeds are so otherworldly from the rest of the canine world that they can't learn proper behavior when its expected, even if it goes against their natural instinct. 

If I can expect a bird dog to not put his mouth on my birds and a herding dog to not herd the birds, I think it's reasonable to expect a LGD to not put his paw on humans in greeting.  

For me, the paw in greeting just isn't necessary and affection can be shown in a hundred other ways that are acceptable and safe.


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## Latestarter

<shrug> Wishing you success in your endeavors.


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## Beekissed

Thank you!  I expect he'll turn out just fine.


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## babsbag

All I can say is that these dogs are different.  Commands are sometimes followed, and sometimes that are a suggestion and it isn't because they are being stubborn, sometimes they just know better than I do. 

They are such mellow dogs too that I find that teaching things like sit and wait and all those other commands my border collies know is pretty much just a waste as they don't jump for their food or crowd me at the gate. They are just there; with a doggie smile.

But mine do live with the goats 24/7 and I know that isn't what Ben will be doing...everyone certainly raises dogs differently, just like we do kids. My way isn't the only way, but it sure was easy not to fret over learning all those commands.


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## Beekissed

Oh, he doesn't have many commands to learn, just the basics.  It's not complicated at all and he doesn't have to perform all the time, but when he needs to know them, they'll be in his data base...and he's learning them!  Whether he is consistent or not in remembering them will be up to him and, of course, to me and how often I've reinforced them.  

I don't fret.  It's not in my wheelhouse.    The things I'm teaching Ben will make his life here easier and less confusing.  He's merely expected to guard his territory and all things in it from predators, to greet familiar humans in a calm and polite manner, don't poop in the yard, stay in his boundary and be a companion for Jake...most of that will come natural to him as he ages, no doubt.  Until then I'm just letting him know what's expected of him....it's all pretty simple when it comes down to it.  

I think a little basic training is better for him than turning him loose with a kiss for luck and then expecting him to somehow know what his job here is~I've seen that time and again with LGDs~then rehoming him~or shooting him~ when he can't figure it out.

It's not difficult for me either, as I have more time on my hands now that the kids are grown and gone and don't mind working with him.  I like dogs and they tend to like me right back and this one's no different.


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## Beekissed

No poops in the yard, no eggs stolen from the coop for several days now.    No paws up on the leg when I didn't pay him attention right away, no crossing of his boundary, no attempt to enter the coop at feeding time, comes each time he is called, and a very quick lie down at his own feeding time...he didn't even need a verbal cue or hand signal to do it today.  Ben had a good day, with only one minor infraction, but he responded quickly to the correction.  

For all that good behavior he got chicken heads and feet , which he chewed a couple of times before swallowing down.  Monday he will have more of the same. 

Gentle Ben is coming along as I had hoped.    Jake is stepping back and giving him place and a position over his own, which is a little sad for me to see when the pup snatches food right out of Jake's mouth, but seems to suit Jake very well...he could put the pup in his place real quick if he wished to do so.  He's always been a sidekick and loves being one.  

This pup seems like he will be a good leader for Jake, when he matures, while also giving me a place of authority quite easily...there seems to be no struggle for control, he follows me so closely that I can feel his little whiskers on the back of my leg.   Feels kinda funny. 

I think Ben is finding his place here and fitting himself into the matrix quite well.  His naturally calm and confident demeanor is just what I've been looking for in a companion and work partner for Jake.  Since we lost Lucy, he's had no strong partner and I think he's really missed that.  Jake is a servant at heart and loves to serve others, so he will be going into his old age with new purpose and a familiar roll to fill, one to which he is accustomed and feels comfortable.


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## goatgurl

so glad you and ben had a good day.  was thinking about your post from yesterday and i think we all expect out lgd's to have manners and do what is expected of them.  Katie does a good sit, down, leave it, never jumps on people and comes when she is called.  all that said what i will admit is that is for the most part.  sometimes she isn't so good at it but i know that these dogs have the ability to think for themselves and I'm glad they do.  as far as the pooing goes, she goes way out in the pasture, always has but if she wanted to poo in a path that i take she and i would have issues.  i don't think that is unreasonable.


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## Beekissed

I haven't met a GP yet that I didn't like...they all seem to have a naturally calm, confident and friendly manner.  They also seem to be naturally intelligent.  I've only seen a few that had bad habits~chasing/biting livestock or wandering away from the herd~ and those were usually the dogs no one had ever worked with at all...just sent them out in the pasture as pups and expected them to "get it", like they had read about.   

For some reason these people blamed the dogs.  That irks me a good bit.  If they had tried their hardest to give them some direction and what they expected of them and they STILL didn't "get it", then I could see where they might think it's the dog's problem.  

Even dogs that are natural hunters and retrievers need direction if they are going to perform those jobs well...same with shepherds.  Oh, they can come equipped with a natural instinct for the job and there may be some really good shepherds out there that can herd without direction or training of any kind, but I'd say they are a rare commodity...most still need to look to the human for direction on just where to herd those animals and which animals to herd or they won't be winning any trials any time soon.  Well...except Pig, that is.


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## babsbag

You are so right about the dogs that are thrown into the field and just expected to know what to do. I was lucky, both of mine are naturals with the goats but not with the chickens; I worked long and hard to break that habit. I have raised a few litters of LGDs and so many people think they will just take a 10-12 wk puppy home and turn it loose with no regard for its safety from the goats or for the goats' safety. I always spend a lot of time educating the new owners on what to expect, some people change their minds, and that is ok. Another irk is when they think that it is a really good idea to just throw the pup in with baby goats, after all, they can grow up together...another really bad idea.

Every other breed is trained to do a job, and people expect that, why they think these dogs need no guidance is beyond me. Perhaps if a pup stayed with its mother for a year it might work, but my female pretty much ignores that part of her job. I have never once seen her correct a pup for chasing chickens or chasing a kid; she lets "grandma ME" do the correcting.

Glad that Ben had a good day; sounds like he is a quick learner.


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## Beekissed

My GP mix corrected Jake as a pup when he got too rough with the kittens...and it worked!  She also stood ready to correct the young cats around the chicks, but they noticed her stance and backed off and we never had a problem at all with those cats in regards to the chicks. 

She was a fine stock dog but she would look on in disgust when Jake and the sheep played tag each evening.   It was clear she felt it was beneath her to play with sheep, but she would come to the house and bark when one of the ewes was lambing and stand by protectively during the lambing.  

Ben is most definitely learning!  This morning he sat calmly as I fed Jake and while I got out his food...then I waited.  He sat and looked at me a few minutes, so I quietly cleared my throat "Ahem!" and he quickly laid down to wait for his food.    LOVE how quickly he is catching on!  Each time he does a correct action, he gets an immediate reward and each step of the "wait calmly for your food" training is progressive.  He has moved to sitting calmly while I scoop it up, then to sitting calmly while I scoop it and place it in the bowl, then lying down before he receives the food, then lying down with a small pause...so on and so forth.  Each day he gets more and more near the "calm wait in a relaxed posture".  And all of this with little need for cues or correction...if I just wait on him to comply or move to the next step, he figures out what I'm waiting for and he does it.  Most of what he's learned in all of that he got from watching Jake. 

I know folks are wondering why in the world one would expect the dogs to learn to wait for their food and be calm while they do so, but it all has a purpose.  It builds trust in me as the provider of their food, it lessens tendencies towards food aggression~to other dogs and humans alike(important when chickens are dabbing in to sneak their food or little toddlers are stumbling around the feeding area), and it helps them "earn" the food, instead of just being fed.  They tend to eat more slowly when taught to wait.  It doesn't hurt them a bit to wait and be calm and it makes feeding time more pleasurable for all of us.

They don't always have to lie down to get their food as time goes along, but we are in training mode now so it's done each day at the present.  Later on I will just expect him to sit or stand back~ calmly~ until I put the food down.  If there are little ones around, they will have to lie down calmly for the food, so that's why it's part of this training.  Aliza likes to go with me to feed the dogs, so it's all necessary in the broad scheme of things.


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## Southern by choice

Agree with food correction but you may want to rethink the chickens taking his food thing. I let all my dogs protect their food from chickens the reason is the chickens are jerks.  I feed the chickens in a huge rail... they also are free range but nooooo as soon as I put the food down for the dogs they swarm and eat the dog food.
"D" and Badger and Eliza and Chunk will allow themselves to be pushed right out by the chickens and they will just walk away.
I don't have time to put them up to protect them from the poultry and I don't want my poultry eating $50 /30lb  bag dog food.

Just a thought as it does get ridiculous and I believe these dogs work hard enough protecting the livestock as well as the poultry without having to deal with them taking their food. 

Humans... now that is a different story. I should be able to put my face in their bowl and them not even think anything of it.


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## Beekissed

I agree...chickens can be jerks!  Jake is allowed to lunge at the chickens to keep them from his food and the pup is allowed to do so also but doesn't do it just yet, so I stand over him while he's eating and do it for him.  

Just not allowed to bite them, is all.  Until he's old enough to get that concept I throw the chickens some feed to distract them while the dogs are eating, then stand off the chickens that still want to come and steal their food. 

Right now that little squirt is turning the tables and heading to the coop after I feed them, goes in and barks at them to drive them back while he eats THEIR food.    Then I have to correct him on that.

Usually I have time to train the chickens on standing back away from the dogs while they are eating and even wait and stand back while I'm getting their own food dished out, but I haven't had time to do that with my juvy birds yet...been too busy.   Yes..I even train the birds to be polite.


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## Beekissed

Fixed on Ben's electric collar today to see if it will be more comfortable to wear over his neck folds.  I cut the sherpa bunny ears off my grandbaby's toboggan and fit them over the strap of the collar so that it doesn't move around as much when he wears it loose enough to skim his neck hide.  Now he has a hot pink sherpa liner to his collar...will have to see how that all works.  

I also made him a dog bed out of a large burlap sack and some cedar chips today...total cost around $5.  I learned long ago not to buy nice dog beds for puppies.    He was already chewing and tugging on it as I was sewing it up.  We'll see how long it lasts.  

He had a good day and listened to my corrections or call backs readily, came when called and stayed when I told him to, just a sweet, happy pup.  He's turning into a fine dog and I had expected he would, so I'm thanking God for this continued good outcome.  I'm impressed with how much he has learned and in such a short time.  Imagine what he'll know by the time he's big.


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## Beekissed

He slept on his bed just fine, didn't chew it once!  Good dog!  Hope that lasts.  

He got four chicken heads, 7 chicken legs(Jake got one), and all the blood he could lick this morning.  Funny little thing has blood all over his face and head!    I'll have to post that pic when I get it on the computer.  That's what I call "feeding raw".  

He LOVES butchering day!    Laying out there with a bulging belly, basking in the sun.  Great life for a dog.


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## bonbean01

This is off topic...but what an adorable little sweetie in your new profile pic


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## Beekissed

Awwww, thank you!  That's my first and only grandbaby, though I have another on the way.  She truly is the best little girl and so funny to be around that she's got us laughing all the time.  I never thought I could ever love another kid as much as I loved my own until I met this one...she truly is a gift straight from Heaven.  

It's funny, because I never pictured myself as a gushing grandma...I'm just not the type and I resisted it for a long while but she's so incredible that our whole family can't help thinking she is like the sun coming up each morning.  Everywhere we go we get the same reaction from complete strangers..there's just something about that kid that makes her stand out, beyond being pretty.  She just shines like a new penny.  

Okay...I'm going to stop.     It's just...sometimes I just can't help spewing on about her.


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## Baymule

Bee, I get the whole gushing grandma thing.........


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## bonbean01

Me too!


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## Beekissed

I'm glad, because I know I sound like a cliche.  At least I don't carry around pictures of her yet and insist on showing them to complete strangers in grocery stores.  Not yet, anyway....     Right now I just use them as avatars.  Just started that...is it a trend, you think?  Am I sliding down that slippery slope of boring grandmotherly lovemush?  

Ben raided the nests today, ate all my eggs.  That's after consuming his own food, all spare chicken parts from my butchering session, random deer parts still lingering in the yard, more chicken bones from when I canned up the chicken and probably the left over chicken's feed in the trough.  

Think he's getting enough to eat?  I don't know.....


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## Southern by choice

Where are the nest boxes? 
Yep... every LGD owner goes through this. We all go  .

What deworming schedule do you have him on?

Are you feeding chicken necks?


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## babsbag

Don't the chickens lay the eggs for the dogs?? I thought that that was how it works   Sorry about the eggs, it has been solved around here...moved the chickens and the coop...but I remember that oh so well.


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> Where are the nest boxes?
> Yep... every LGD owner goes through this. We all go  .
> 
> What deworming schedule do you have him on?
> 
> Are you feeding chicken necks?



Nest boxes at dog height inside the coop...right at his head level.    They are built ins, so I can't raise them out of his reach.  He's still small enough to worm his way into that pop door and he goes at will when I'm inside the house or away from home.  

I don't much do a deworming schedule for my dogs.  They get wormed in the spring and again in the fall, but that's it...don't know if you can call that a schedule.  I use something fairly mild, I don't like to give or use too much medicines on them. 

After what I've learned about the topical flea meds the other day, I think I'll stop giving those as well and try a more natural alternative/preventative for that.  We usually don't have a big flea problem here and I've never seen one on Jake, though I know he has a few at certain times of the year.  

He'll only be getting chicken necks after we are through with them.    Usually they get their daily ration~be that dog food or deer scraps~and any other meat/bone type scraps from our kitchen leavings, apples and any past fresh buttermilk.  When I butcher chickens they get the feet and heads right then and any other bits that we don't use, but I usually don't give them the guts...Jake wouldn't touch them... but this pup would gulp them whole.  I should have given him those, now that I think of it. 

They also eat whatever they can kill or scavenge~rabbits, mice, squirrel, fruit, garden leavings such as corn, lettuce and maters, and eggs they have found out in the woods~a rarity, but it happens~and eggs and fermented chicken feed that they steal from the coop, like right now(Ben only), deer parts~livers, kidneys, lungs, hooves, heads, bones(though that is going to stop now that Jake's teeth are getting too worn down to chew them effectively).   All in all they get a pretty varied diet that keeps my dogs very healthy and active, glossy and bright.


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## Beekissed

babsbag said:


> Don't the chickens lay the eggs for the dogs?? I thought that that was how it works   Sorry about the eggs, it has been solved around here...moved the chickens and the coop...but I remember that oh so well.



I do feel that any they find out in the bush or any that I find that are too poopy or damaged are a fair reward for the job they do.  I don't begrudge those at all.  They deserve them!


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## Southern by choice

LGD breeds given their nature and where they come from as well as their size do need a different deworming program. Not sure if you have seen this or not. I have written many times about the subject. I can pm you a schedule if you like. It is just for pups not a permanent schedule.
LGD's rarely get fleas. I don't use anything either unless there is a reason. In our region ticks are horrible. We don't have that much of an issue in most parts due to the chickens and Turkeys but other sections especially where  we move goats through the woods it is a big deal. We have had one human and 2 dogs contracted Erlichiosis. Fortunately I know the  early onset signs (working with canines for a long time has it's advantages) Was able to get my son in immediately and the dogs as well. Our friend almost lost one of her dogs (one of our pups) to it this past summer. If we see tick issues they do get treatment (preventative) unfortunately ticks are becoming resistant to just about everything ... at least here. The natural products can actually do more harm than good, unless one is well versed or has an herbalist it can be risky. We have tried a few things however the dogs will roll in the manure or mud or whatever to get it off.  Can't blame them... some things just smell so powerful to me so I can only imagine what it is like for them. 

Not sure if I mentioned this here or in another "place" but you may want to be keeping those necks away from Ben. The thyroid is located in the neck region of the chicken up by the head. Studies for raw feeding do warn of the fact that ingesting necks (because of the thyroid) can disrupt thyroid in the dog. 

What is his weekly gain right now?


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## Beekissed

No thyroid tissue in any necks he may consume, so no worries.  By the time he gets them they have small meat fragments, bone and spinal cord only and any glandular tissue is nowhere to be found.  Could be he'd ingest some when he eats the head, but that only happens a few times a year, so I'm not going to get too worked up about that.  Not that I would anyway.    Been feeding the same things to my dogs for years upon years and never saw any ill effects from it.  

I've never weighed him.  Don't know what he weighed originally and may never know unless I take him to the vet for something.  Jake has only seen the vet twice in his life and both times were when he was around 6 mo., for rabies and neutering...he's 9 yrs old now.  I don't vet a dog unless he's sick or injured or so old and arthritic that he/she needs the mercy of euthanasia. 

I wouldn't mind reading your article about the deworming if you have a link.


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## Beekissed

Each day I'm more and more impressed with this pup's willingness to learn and perform what he's learned...he's one of those intuitive dogs that can anticipate what you want, which I love!    It's nice to not even have to wait on a dog to go into position as he's already there. 

This morning I was in a hurry when I fed, so just scooped, turned and gave Jake his food, turned back to scoop some for Ben...and turned around to find him already lying down as I've been teaching him to do, waiting calmly.  I just about burst buttons from pride of him and gave him much lovin' for going that next step...Jake hasn't even figured that one out yet!   He still has to be told or waited upon to get into a calm position...but then, Jake is a different temperament than Ben, with all that Border Collie side showing jittery energy pulsing through his body.  Ben is much more laid back and able to hold a calm demeanor. 

He's also pooping where he's supposed to poop after I finally learned to give him positive reinforcement when I dumped his scooped up loads there...only had to do that twice and he got it.  Hasn't pooped in the yard since.   Wish I learned as quickly as he does!    Would have saved me the daily scooping of the poop and the grumbling while doing so.  

The other night some people beat on our door around midnight, wanting to use the phone.  Jake didn't bark once, which was odd until I realized he has slipped into sidekick mode with this pup, like he always did with Lucy, my GP mix.  The pup barked a couple of times, so Jake didn't need to. 

Love that about Jake...he's a very quiet dog and only barks when necessary.  When Lucy was alive, I rarely ever heard Jake's voice and only when we had a bear or coyote pack visit the land or strange man walking by the house.  I'm hoping Ben will follow suit and bark only when he perceives a threat~strangers on the land or strange vehicle arriving, predators in the area, hawk overhead and flying too low.

Ben's collar is showing a great fit now and he no longer even attempts to challenge the boundary.  He has stopped putting his paw up on any of us entirely, even when excited, but approaches with tail wagging and nose outstretched for our greeting which is more desired.   He only needed a couple of corrections for that, so I'm duly impressed. 

Overall I'm impressed with what this pup has learned in only one month:  He's learned the electric fence boundary, to come each time he's called, to lie down and wait calmly for food, appropriate greeting(no paws), no jumping up, to walk on a leash on either side, sit, stay(still working on that one but he's got the concept now), lie down(all these basic commands he also knows the hand signal for), no chasing chickens(VERY important and among one of the first things taught and learned), where to poop and not poop, how to stay out of the way when we are walking past, and to stand or sit calmly while I take off and put on his collar/leash/harness, where to sleep, how to act when humans are touching or around his food while he's eating and, last but certainly not the least in importance~who buys the food around here.  

What he hasn't learned just yet and I've not had time to do training on is raiding the coop for chicken feed and eggs.  Usually that gets taken care of in time due to continued body growth but I'll take some time to work on it also. 

Might load me up a few eggs with some super hot sauce I have and see if that won't discourage his egg suckin' activities...never tried that before but it might just work.  Might also lace up the chicken feed with some really hot peppers I have canned up...the chickens won't care and it may even improve laying, but he's bound to have a hot mouth if he should take a taste._  It just might work. _

Things I want to teach yet:  Loading up and unloading from the truck or car, stay out of the coop, and keep back from Aliza's face when he greets her...go in low and slow and let her reach out first.

All training of everything he's learned and will yet learn will be ongoing for the entirety of our lives together, with every day showing opportunities for him to grow in skills and understanding of our lives here together.  I'd venture to say this dog will be so versatile and intuitive in his capabilities that we'll never stop learning from one another and our partnership will be incredible.

He's learned so many important things from Jake that I could never teach him~what animal poses a threat and is worthy of barking, how long to bark for strangers(just a couple notes to get attention in the house or much more if we are not home), when to pay attention to the chickens and when to ignore them.

I thank God for sending him our way...God always knows what we need and when we need it and this pup was a direct answer to prayer. 

Tomorrow will be his first time left alone on the homestead while we travel for two days.  Well, he's not alone but first time totally without human supervision.  I feel he knows and heeds the fence boundary enough that he won't be wandering off~ only to be shot by the neighbors.  He also is trustworthy around the chickens enough to be left alone with them.   I'll entrust him to God's hands while we are gone, like I do with the rest of the animals and property, and will not worry one bit while I'm away.


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## Beekissed

Ben's first unsupervised period went very well, though he raided the coop in my absence once again.  I think I'll be baiting an egg and the chicken's feed this week to see how quickly he learns to leave such things alone.  

He's growing quickly and is just a joy to have around...right now he's all curled up in that black rocking chair~wish I could get a good pic of that, as the white dog with black nose in the black chair is a very pretty composition.  

I'll be adding to his system before spring so that both dogs will have a bigger area in which to patrol/run.  This well help them patrol the area around the garden more completely so that they can kill the resident rabbits that chew holes in my garden fencing.   

Will be getting some more hay bales this week to build him a hay house for winter sleeping...that should be warm as toast this winter.  The hay house will be inside my spare chicken pen where he's currently sleeping curled up next to a couple of bales I have at present...on his cedar bed and in a corner protected on three sides, filled with fresh hay.  It's out of the wind and wet, while still having easy access to the area he is guarding, for a swift response to threats that may occur while he is sleeping.

With the new bales I'll give him a top and thicker sides, as well as a thick flap to drape across the front to keep his warmth in.  He'll be good and snug there.  On the coldest subzero weather he can bunk in with Jake or Jake with him for added body warmth if they are so inclined, as both areas~the hay house and Jake's house~ are big enough for two dogs if they want to curl up together.  

They really get on well together and I'm so pleased Jake has a nice dog companion once again.  It means the world for him to have companionship of his own kind once again.


----------



## Beekissed

Had given Ben a one gallon apple juice jug to chew on and he loves it!  It's too hard and tough for his little puppy teeth to chew off bits, so no worries there.  He carries it, throws it, fetches it, pounces on it and chews it.  CHEAP and great chew toy.


----------



## Baymule

Today we did a big burn pile, the burn ban is finally off. Our dogs, Parker, Polly and Trip enjoyed themselves immensely. Trip will be a year old next month. My hammer disappeared. I looked all over then finally concluded Trip took off with it. I saw him grab the garden rake and run off with it. I fussed a loud AAHHHHNNNT! He dropped the rake and I went and got it. I had a "poking" stick for the fire and of course he got that too. Anything I touch and it has my scent on it, he will claim it for his own. Later on, I did find the hammer and the nice rubber handle bore teeth marks.


----------



## Beekissed

He sounds like a real trip!  Hee, hee!   That "aaaaaannnnhhhtttt!" word is my preferred no-no sound too...it works better than anything else I've ever tried and for kids and all kinds of animals, it works.


----------



## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> He carries it, throws it, fetches it, pounces on it and chews it. CHEAP and great chew toy.


Clients always ask "what kind of toys should I get"... I remind them they are LGDS- the best thing is an old hard plastic planting pot or a hard plastic coffee can... then I point to the field... RED FOLGERS Coffee containers scattered...   I love how they toss them up and play with them and carry them around in that "prance-ful" way! They always look so happy. I drink alot of coffee so always plenty of "cans" around.  May look junky but the dogs love them! 

I need to put more out... all the old ones were thrown away and the pups are now starting to take the red water buckets.  That is a no no!



Baymule said:


> Later on, I did find the hammer and the nice rubber handle bore teeth marks.


 None of mine have really been collectors but it is common with so many. Callie would take some things and make her "pile" but not really a collector. There use to be a woman on here (Coconut) and her girl "Gus" (yes, a girl dog) would collect everything! Kiddie pools, hoses (multiple), tools... you name it she had her "collection". She would put up pics and it was so funny.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtttttttttttttttttttttttt!
  

Yep!  I also use "what are you doing?" I say it in a quieter way and the offender will always look up... yep the one doing wrong KNOWS  then they hang there head . Stinking smart dogs. Just love them.

Glad he did well for you while you were gone.


----------



## Beekissed

I love that about them too....very intuitive!  I use the quiet "ah-EM", clearing of the throat and the dog that's not doing what he is supposed to do with either comply immediately or sit down and wait for further instructions.  So funny to watch, because I didn't teach that to the pup, but he learned it from watching the interaction between Jake and I.  

This pup has taken to the occasional hanging on and biting of the receiver box on Jake's collar and I want to stop that NOW...those things are expensive.  I'll be placing a new one on Jake this week(just because the one he's wearing is 10 yrs old and no longer has a warning beep function), but will be painting it with some hot pepper juice first to see if I can dissuade the pup in gnawing on it.  I've given him correction when I caught him at it, but I'm sure it's happening when I'm not around. 

That's one reason I provided the apple jug...something similar, a hard plastic thing that is okay to gnaw upon.  Hoping that will satisfy his urge to gnaw, as I've collected all the deer bones and discarded them due to Jake's old teeth.  I'd get pig ears but those are gobbled in two seconds and not chewed upon at length like one would hope.


----------



## Baymule

That deep, growling, AAAAAHHHHHNNNNNNTTTTT!!!!! Just scares the living crap out of kids (all ages) and animals (dogs especially) I just love it.


----------



## Beekissed

Well....Ben, 1: Bee, 0. The baited fiery hot loaded egg was tried, though not eaten and the hot pepper paste I coated the feed trough with was still sampled, though not licked thoroughly.

I threw the rest of the egg out on the ground and Jake came up to lick the contents....so much for hot sauce or peppers keeping a dog from eating eggs. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  The pup ate the rest of it.  

The pup has eaten most of my eggs for several days now. I'm going to lock down the coop/flock for a couple of days this next weekend to see how many I'm actually supposed to be getting now.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

Oh boy....  how about something like horseradish?  or wasabi?


----------



## Goat Whisperer

These dogs are smart and have a good nose. They can tell what eggs have hot sauce on them and what eggs don't


----------



## Baymule

Hot sauce=total fail. Well, back to the drawing board.


----------



## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> Well....Ben, 1: Bee, 0. The baited fiery hot loaded egg was tried, though not eaten and the hot pepper paste I coated the feed trough with was still sampled, though not licked thoroughly.
> 
> I threw the rest of the egg out on the ground and Jake came up to lick the contents....so much for hot sauce or peppers keeping a dog from eating eggs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pup ate the rest of it.
> 
> The pup has eaten most of my eggs for several days now. I'm going to lock down the coop/flock for a couple of days this next weekend to see how many I'm actually supposed to be getting now.


Wanted to tell you it wouldn't work but figured you'd try it anyway... 
 There again for the 1 dog in 100 that it does...maybe worth a shot. They can smell it a mile away. Some like the peppers and sauces. 
I feel for you... eggs. Dogs aren't getting ours but we haven't had eggs in ages... one lots of old birds now, and two MOLT! Then add in the lack of daylight hours...  Seriously considering culling all but about 15 birds. Really tired of feeding them for nothing. 
Wondering if a bar across the opening would help. We have some Giant Birds as well... Standard Cochins and a Delacauna (14lb Roo)
They can't fit through a regular cattle panel but they can squat down enough to go through a crosspiece but the pup probably won't fit. 


frustratedearthmother said:


> Oh boy....  how about something like horseradish?  or wasabi?


FEM-   Not even funny. That is terrible.. however we had a boxer years ago that would eat anything. Just not DH's chili.

I know if you spray windex on trash cans/lids the coons are deterred. We did this years ago prefarm days and many moons ago when I worked in a park (teenager) . Worked great. Maybe if you sprayed around the outside of the boxes? It wouldn't affect the eggs and the chickens should be ok...


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## frustratedearthmother

Hey now!  

Many years ago I had an absolutely adorable, horrible little dog (and I say that with soooo *much* affection) that would jump in the middle of the table at a crawfish boil   to grab the chili/horseradish dipping sauce - along with the hottest piece of corn on the cob that he could find!  He looooved the stuff, lol!  (so, on second thought - probably not good to put in an egg that you DON'T want eaten!)
But, afterwards he had to sleep outside because his gaseous eruptions were absolutely unbearable..   

Eventually I imagine Ben will get too fat to get in that chicken door and all will be well again!


----------



## Southern by choice

Oh yeah... our boxer she could blow you out of a room. It is funny how there are some dogs that love wasabi.


----------



## Beekissed

Goat Whisperer said:


> These dogs are smart and have a good nose. They can tell what eggs have hot sauce on them and what eggs don't



Must not had too good a nose, he picked it out of the nest and took a bite out of it.  Then, when I tossed it out of the coop, he gobbled it up....after he sniffed around awhile to find where it was exactly.  

The hot pepper paste was not ON the egg, but inside it.  And it was painted on the inside of my trough.  Didn't phase him a bit~good nose and all , though it made me cough just blending it down in the blender.



> Wanted to tell you it wouldn't work but figured you'd try it anyway...



Actually, if you'd had told me you tried it and it didn't work, I'd have never bothered.    I always give first hand experience a look see... if it sounds reasonable.

I suppose y'all thought that was horribly cruel and all.  It's only uncomfortable for a bit, if at all....apparently not at all.    He had no reaction to it whatsoever.

It's back to the coop blocker for Ben, though this time it'll be on a harness.


----------



## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> I suppose y'all thought that was horribly cruel and all.



No I don't think so.  Wasabi---- maybe but then again some dogs love it!   

Good thing is he will be big enough shortly and he won't be able to get in.


----------



## Beekissed

Ben wore his coop blocker again today and I got my eggs..and the chickens got all their own feed.  It was nice.  He doesn't like wearing it...the stick of shame, apparently.   

We had a good day, with time for sitting in the grass and lots of puppy loving.  He's really developing a great coat~raw eggs will do that for ya  ~lush and thick in time for colder weather.  He's growing like a weed and continues to develop his good behavior...though he did break into a pint Mason jar full of ground ginger root and buttermilk and eat the whole thing!  

Good for him, but I was going to give it to the chickens....after eating that hot pepper paste and a jar of fermented ginger root, there can't be a single worm alive in those tubes.  

Still pooping where he should, which is heavenly , still leaving chickens alone, still minding well on basic obedience and other commands, etc.  He's doing great~well...except staying out of my coop ... but he's really trained to the electric system now, that's for sure. 

Today I took his collar off for working on his collar and again to see if he wanted to join Jake and us around the fire...he wouldn't go across that boundary for love or food.     I was so proud of him!  If I had led him across the boundary on a leash he would have readily went, but I didn't fool with it tonight.  Too tired.  

Did give some really good hugs, massages and sweet talk with him today as he "helped" me with sundry chores that required I get down on the ground in his part of the yard.  Love those puppy nuzzles on my neck!


----------



## Baymule

Ben sounds like he is making you one fine dog!


----------



## Beekissed

He is!  I'm so tickled that he's taking a cue from Jake and not barking his fool head off all the time.  Maybe that will come with age and as he grows more territorial, but I sure hope not.  It's a pure blessing from God to have a quiet homestead, particularly at night.

It's also good to see Jake paired up with another white dog...brings back images of when he worked alongside Lucy, my sweet old girl.  Jake and he are already moving together like he and Lucy did, running together, lying down together, etc.   They are officially a pack.    

He put a paw up on Aliza's arm to day and left claw marks...I wasn't close enough to the action to do a correction, but that's why I don't like the "paw greeting".  Tender skin, painful "greeting".    I thought we'd made progress on that...but I'll keep working on it.  Good thing I had trimmed his nails or it would have been worse.  

Time will tell how valuable he will be to the homestead but it looks promising.


----------



## Beekissed

Left the deer gut pile at the edge of the woods for the dogs to enjoy this time...not one thing was left except the largest stomach, the one with the really stinky contents. Every other scrap of the guts was consumed. They also consumed every scrap of meat from the spine and ribs, while chewing off the ends of all the ribs. 

Both dogs look like lions after a kill..stomachs sagging and swaying when they walk. Ben looked like he had a tummy ache today...he'll learn. They also wouldn't eat the lungs...no animal likes the lungs and I don't know why, but even the chickens won't eat chicken lungs when thrown to them. 

Took what was left of that spine/rib cage and threw it over the hill for the wild animals and will do the same with the legs/hide and head. Jake's teeth are too worn to consume these things properly, though I may let the pup have the head...he'll make short work of that. But not today.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





The chickens helped pick the bones of the spine and ribs...looked like white vultures up there. Meat protein, in its purest form, folks. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




This is true carnivore/omnivore behavior...gorge on a "kill" and then lay around for a few days sleeping it off~sort of like us at Thanksgiving. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I love it that we have opportunities for them to have such a varied diet throughout the year, what with meat scraps of chicken and deer, garden overage and canning scraps, foraged fruits, whatever they catch~rabbit, ground squirrels, etc. 

They wouldn't have all of those opportunities if we didn't have a lifestyle of growing and killing our own meats and hunting off the land. I'm glad we have that here, as every creature benefits from it.


----------



## Beekissed

I'll have to get some pics of Ben today,as he is growing in leaps and bounds right now.  He's as tall as Jake, though lacks his bulk...but is quickly filling that in. Three or four eggs a day, dog food, chicken feed, kitchen scraps and all the deer meat and offal one can eat will do that for ya....   I've even seen him eating the rotten pumpkins I threw out for the chickens.  Did I ever think that pup was a delicate eater?  I think I did...well, I was wrong.  

I haven't had time to work with him but will get back to that as soon as our busy season tapers off.  Soon I'll have endless winter days to fill with some kind of work and I'll include the education of Ben in that list.

Now that he's getting bigger and I've killed the huge old rooster I had, I may narrow the opening to the coop a tad to see if that will take care of his egg suckin' ways.  He's pretty wiry, so it may not, but we'll see. 

That extremely long tail is amusing to me...it lollops as he runs and takes much effort to wag, so it's like a flag of surrender waving up there. 

His winter coat is really coming in and his legs are filling in to be more sturdy and thick.  I hope he grows into a really big dog...I love a dog I can just drop my arm around as he's walking beside me.

He ate a whole pint of ground up ginger root and buttermilk(stolen, of course), after eating a hot pepper paste filled egg and licking a hot pepper paste from the feed trough.  I'm thinking, if there were any worms in his gut, they are dead and gone.  Toast.  


As you've no doubt guessed, I favor a natural, holistic approach to animal care that's never let me down for many a long year.  It's kept my dogs, sheep and chickens incredibly healthy~no illness whatsoever~and parasite free for just as long.  I use a preventative approach and it doesn't rely solely on treatment with herbs or similar items as the totality of the treatment.  I build healthy immune systems, provide a varied and species appropriate diet, a natural life outdoors on clean soils, exercise, and no chemical meds for the food animals and the least I can get by with on the dogs and cats.  I don't use any one vermifuge too often, nor any of them often at all, usually twice a year.  It works, so I stick with it.  

Will be taking Jake and him some more deer scraps and fat this morning...something that sticks to the gut longer than dog food and has more of the protein they need to put on a good fat layer before really cold weather. 

Will also be making his sleeping place more warm and snug today in preparation for the subzero weather we've been getting in our winter months here.  He doesn't have the long coat of a GP, so a snug place to be will keep him comfy this winter.  When it gets teens below, they can always bunk in together if they aren't warm enough in their individual houses, but I'm doubting they will need it...both places are so well insulated on all sides and out of the wind that they should sleep fine.


----------



## Hens and Roos

an idea for your eggs- a friend of mine who raises chickens will put hydrogen peroxide into an egg if she is having problems with other chickens eating the eggs.  Apparently, the chickens don't like the foaming action that happens


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## Beekissed

Dogs hate that stuff too.    If I have to load an egg again, I'll try that...many thanks!  Today I narrowed the pop door opening and will see if that has any effect whatsoever....he's pretty persistent, so it may not work even then.


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## Southern by choice

We do a great deal of raw too! Dogs love it we love it!
The only issue is the raw eggs. 
Of course, like everything it seems these days, it is a very heated subject. If you ever look at the raw feeding forums it is unreal of how heated people get. 

Our LGD's have been real egg stealers over the years (as any LGD owner has experienced) some worse than others. Never young pups but older pups and dogs.
One of my old timey vets made mention of being careful with raw eggs and explained in detail the affects... I did more research on the matter and found like most things... too much of a "good thing" can be a bad thing. Knowing the vet is not anti-raw I felt the advice was worth looking into. 

Although a raw diet is great (not grocery store raw meat), raw eggs are not good for dogs. Raw eggs have an enzyme called avidin.* Avidin affects Biotin,* which is a B vitamin, and also* Trypsin is interfered with in the intestines causing deficiency as well as mal-absorption.*

Some of the affects of mal-absorption are dogs that are constantly hungry and eating and eating and eating. Some people will confuse this with worms. 

The Hydrogen Peroxide usually makes them throw up.


----------



## Beekissed

Hence the need to keep this pup out of the coop!  I wouldn't voluntarily feed him 3 eggs a day, of course.  My dogs rarely ever get raw eggs unless they find one out in the bush or I get a really poopy one(about once or twice a year, if that).  
Could explain why he eats and eats but never seems to get full.    Still working on keeping him out of my nests....

Good info on the eggs, Southern!


----------



## Southern by choice

Eating eggs... the following are my "thoughts" on the matter..










It is a lot like kids and candy... they just want it soooooo bad. 
At least with humans mom's can say No and that is the end of the matter.

Sometimes I think I would trade the chasing foe the eggs.

well... not really 

Can't wait to see pics. 
 Today I am trying to rake pens and leaves but need to take lots of breaks (hence the BYH) but while I am out there I keep laying down the pitchfork, rake, shovels and find myself just wanting to sit with the dogs. They are all content and laying around... but I just want to spend time with them. I think they are sick of me interrupting their "Lazy Sunday"


----------



## Beekissed

I love those times with the dogs.    We have some quality time outside of our work relationship, where we can snuggle without interruptions.  Sometimes I'll go out on a clear winter's night and snuggle with them in the hay, just watching the stars and talking to God.  Best times with the pups!  

Southern, I've been doing my raking the easy way...sorta.  I've been hauling bags of leaves from our nearest town, 20 mi. away.  Have collected 181 bags thus far(that's just 2 1/2 day's worth!) and hope to collect more this coming week and the next.  All are being placed on the garden, some stored for winter bedding and some are placed right in the coop.  Bagged gold, right there!  

Raking tears up my back...lifting some of these bags(lawn clippings or chopped leaves) do some damage as well, but not as much as if I had to rake and transport that many leaves.


----------



## goatgurl

can't think of a better way to relax then setting in the warm autumn sunshine with a giant dog leaning on you and grinning.  slowly getting all caught up with everyone and had to laugh at baymule and her AAaaannnntt.  i couldn't rule my queendom without the aaannntt.  everything and everyone listens to it.  i had to put a cattle panel across my chicken house door to keep both the dogs and goats out.  dogs want the eggs and goats want the feed.  fortunately the chickens can go thru the panel openings but the others can't


----------



## Beekissed

Got my eggs today....he tried all day long to get into that pop door.   Didn't make it.  I hope that solution lasts until he's big enough to no longer fit in those pop doors.


----------



## Baymule

Haha, I had a hole cut in my coop from the run that was 12"x9" so the chickens could go in the run whenever they wanted. (at the old house) I closed the coop door, opened the run door so the chickens could still get in the coop. I watched Paris, our GP squeeze herself through that small hole in disbelief. Then Parker, our Great Dane/black Labrador wriggled himself through the hole too. Monkey see, monkey do.


----------



## Southern by choice

oh the adventures. The pups- pyr pups and the toli/pyr pups would go through the cattle panel and get STUCK! Their big old hips/butts couldn't get through (3 months pups) and they would whine and holler and act like it was this terrible stupid fences fault.
For the one that wriggled through... yep their little but had to stay in there and that oh that was just so horrible  while the others are playing and I am loving on them that one had to stay in the coop. They had water of course and the thing is they weren't going for eggs but chicken poop .  2 hours in the building was a big deterrent.

Must say when we had nesting boxes up high Badger that is well over 6 ft standing up could get that big ole head in there and get eggs. 
Bad boy.


----------



## Beekissed

He keeps trying.  Hasn't succeeded yet.     Feels good to defeat him in this, as I have folks waiting on eggs.  

He's learning more and more about waiting politely for meals, has progressed to lying quietly and looking away from the food after the food has been put down on the ground and only releasing when I say "Okay".  That's really quick...very quick progression for a pup that age to go from racing into the feed like a maniac, bumping the scoop to make the feed fly everywhere, dancing around like he has to pee....to lying down and waiting patiently until I say he can have it.

He still loves that rocking chair but is not finding it as comfy as it was...he's getting too big to curl up in that seat like he used to.  

Just this past week or so he's taken to greeting me with a low yowling sound in the mornings...sounds like "Y'all" in a deep southern drawl.  It's a little growly and low, but definitely a happy greeting.  

Jake is well known for talking, but mostly when he's been corrected in something and disagrees, he always grumbles around about it as he flops down and pouts, but he's never talked in greeting us like this new thing Ben is doing.  It's really cute, so I say "Howdy y'all" right back to him..truly a southern dog.


----------



## bonbean01

Any chance of a video of his verbal greeting?  If not...how about a few pics?  Has to be getting bigger now and very handsome 

Have caught up on this thread, and had to laugh when the hot sauce in the egg didn't work   Many years ago I had an inside dog who was so bad about hopping on a kitchen chair and snatching food off the table in a flash when he thought no one was looking...was getting ridiculous to have to tip all the chairs upside down while setting the table for meals...pushing the chairs back in that small kitchen didn't work...he'd make the leap right up on top of the table then 

So...decided to put a plate of food on the table totally loaded with very hot sauce and black pepper...then left the kitchen and watched...that fool dog ate the whole plate and licked it clean and went looking for more   After that Toby had to go to the basement when food was being put on the table...brat chewed and clawed the top wooden step completely off in short order...ahh the joys...loved that dog though...but worst dog ever!!!


----------



## Beekissed

He is getting bigger.  I took a couple of pics today but never really got to stop long enough in chores to get some good angles on him.  I'll try to catch the greeting on film, though he just does it the one time each day.  I'll have to be quick to catch it.  

Found out today he's still pooping in the yard a good bit...haven't had time to work on that, but will get to later when the last of the season's chores are over.  It's pretty important that he doesn't make a habit of it, as Mom just can't STAND "dog filth", as she calls it..and this is her place, so what she says goes.  I can't stand it either when it winds up on my shoe, so that's going to be a training priority soon. 

I also think he got into the coop anyway today, as I didn't have an egg one...and I have three laying daily.  Going to have to make that hole even smaller...hope the chickens can still get in there.  

Might try a citronella rag over the entrance but, knowing this pup, it won't even give him pause.  It would send Jake running in a second, but this pup is a whole 'nother breed of cat.  Er..._dog.  _


----------



## Beekissed

A pic from a couple of weeks ago, during a chicken butchering session...







And today...both dogs were pouting a little over not being able to come in the garden while we worked in there.


----------



## goatgurl

love the stick of shame. lol  i had to put a yoke on my last lgd pup to keep him out of things.  it worked till he figured out he could get ahold of one end and chew it off and go thru anyway.  went thru 3 cedar tree forks before he grew enough to not be able to get thru.  he is growing like a weed and i love that face.


----------



## Beekissed

That stick of shame is going to be converted to a triangle of shame later on this week.  He's still forcing that stick to one side and slithering into the door.  Won't be able to do that with a triangle.  It's a shame to have to wear such contraption but he can't keep eating all the eggs and I don't want to tie him up.


----------



## Beekissed

Thinking of creating a wire tunnel on the back pop door to see if that keeps the pup out...he may just crush it or tear it down in his willful efforts to get in the coop, but I'd like to try it.  I hate to keep devising more and more contraptions he has to wear around his neck.  It looks awful and it can't feel too comfy either, though that doesn't seem to hinder him at all in his daily life.  Of stealing.


----------



## goatgurl

try the triangle, i used a Y shaped stick and duck taped it to both sides of his collar.  worked really well.  good luck


----------



## Beekissed

I added another side to the triangle this  morning, will try to complete that tomorrow.  Then, later on I'll try to give the chickens a tunnel to walk through so that he can't get in there.  It's a shame to have all that hardware on his neck but I don't see another way until I try to build this tunnel...even Jake wasn't this persistent on stealing eggs as a pup.  

On the other side of the coin, he laid down for food this morning and waited...I placed his food in front of his paws and waited.  Drops of saliva hit the ground but he looked away from the food and waited. I told him "Okay" and he started eating like a gentleman.  I gave him much love for his great progress on being mannerly at feeding time.  I'm impressed!  

He seems to love his new "house" and Jake sleeps there with him on mild nights, so he has good company.  He's still quiet....no barking at all, except a few woofs when playing with Jake.  I hope he stays a quiet sort of dog, only barking at real threats and not to just hear himself speak.  I love our peaceful nights here.


----------



## babsbag

I used stock panel and a row of hot wire. I had goat kids getting into the coop so when I fixed it so they couldn't get in it stopped the puppies too. The chickens went right over or under the hot wire, didn't bother them in the least.


----------



## Beekissed

I've got a piece of cattle panel that I'm going to incorporate into a tunnel to the back pop door...hope to get that completed tomorrow before I go out of town for a couple of days.  

I'm tired of seeing that pup with all that stuff on his neck.  I hate how uncomfortable it looks and must feel.  Except for the coop raiding, he's an excellent pup and, with time and his own growth, this will pass, but I've just got to keep him out of there.  Will let y'all know if this works.


----------



## babsbag

I don't know if you have an fence charger but what if you basically set him up to get zapped? Let all the chickens out and then put some rows of wire across the opening, just for the day. When he sticks his head in there he will get bit by a nasty fence. It was easy for us as the hot wire for the goats was only a few feet away so I could tap into the easily. The fiberglass step on fence posts for hot wire are cheap and quick to install for a temp. fence.

What would really be nice would be to put the invisible fence around the coop too. Of course I have all these ideas but have no idea of your setup so none of them may be practical for you.


----------



## Beekissed

I no longer have a fence charger on hand...sold it.  It sure would be nice to be able to zap him, though it took him several, several hard zaps to learn to stay in the fence boundary, so it wouldn't be just a temporary thing.  He's pretty tough about pain.  

I can't put my fence boundary where it would exclude the coop, as Jake's dog house is attached to the back of the coop and they need to be able to guard around the coop also. 

Great suggestions, though!  I'm all for the lovely usefulness of a hot wire or electric persuasion in times of extreme stubbornness.


----------



## babsbag

I hit the electric fence today, I wonder what case of extreme stubbornness that was for?


----------



## Beekissed

I'm sure God knows!  

Took the top off a large cat carrier and used it to form a tunnel on the back pop door and also narrowed the opening to the pop door itself, to see if this thwarts the pup.  He's no longer wearing his neck hardware, so he just may squirm into this tunnel but he will have big trouble making the turn into the coop itself and squeezing into the smaller hole of the door. 












If this doesn't work I can extend the tunnel. 






Ben "helped" me a little on the project...mostly just getting in my lap for pets.


----------



## BlessedWithGoats

Hope this works for you!! Best wishes!


----------



## goatgurl

i hope the chickens can figure it out too.  ben looks much happier without his neckwear.


----------



## babsbag

Ben is just a gorgeous boy. Hope this works so he can leave the necklace off and you can have some eggs. No one is laying at my house except one little rogue bantie that leaves me one in the hay trailer most every day.


----------



## Beekissed

I sure hope it works too...I hated having him wear so many things on his neck.  I had really even wanted to put off having him use the electric collar until later also but he's the adventurous type and would have wandered off without it.  

All it will take is one chicken to figure it out and she will show the others.  I already lured one into the tunnel and outside and she just figured out how to get back in as well, so it will be interesting to see if I have chickens out at daybreak or not tomorrow.  

I put a big watermelon and a huge soggy pumpkin in the coop this evening to keep them busy and hydrated until they all figure it out.


----------



## Baymule

Chickens aren"t as dumb as people think they are. I am sure they will quickly catch on to Momma's Latest Madness!


----------



## Beekissed

The chickens did fine with the new contraption on the door....and so did Ben.  Didn't phase him a bit.  Neither did wearing a coop blocker on his collar AND using the tunnel...he still stole my eggs today.  

I'm thinking I'll have to invest in a fence charger and hot wire that pop door.


----------



## goatgurl

dang his ornery hide.  keep after it...never give up, never say die.  if nothing else he'll get to big to fit thru the door soon


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## Southern by choice

Ok so I know I shouldn't laugh... but I just have to.
  

Ok that's done.

Sorry... but I love the baby stage with these dogs... good or bad. 

I am not laughing at the fact I just got all new collars at $12 a pop and the daggone toli head slips right out... their neck is bigger than their head so one of the red collars was laying in the field. I guess that was what they were playing with this morning. 

Yes... it is the Toli in them. Not a single pyr has ever done such a thing.


----------



## Baymule

Sorry Bee, but I busted out laughing on that one! These dogs can make you  in frustration, but you  them anyway.


----------



## babsbag

Baymule said:


> Sorry Bee, but I busted out laughing on that one! These dogs can make you  in frustration, but you  them anyway.



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Beekissed

Well...I laugh about it too!    One can't help but admire that kind of persistence and ingenuity, even while wanting to thonk him in the head over it.  He actually broke the coop blocker bar right off his collar getting into that tunnel the other day, so he's still snaking through that little space and the strength required to crawl that tunnel and fit that big ol' body through that small hole, while simultaneously breaking a dowel rod off his collar, and not disturbing anything else all the while is just astounding.  Just once I'd love to actually SEE him squirming through that tunnel...would be a great vid!  

Today I got another option...a small fence charger.  Going to hot wire my pop door and see if he gets past that.  I know the chickens will, but will have to see if the pup will succeed.  If that doesn't work, I'm pretty much out of solutions.  

And that dog is growing fast, so time may provide the only answer but until then I'd love to have some eggs to share with people.  

The other day I gave Jake permission to discipline him when he rushes in and takes Jake's bones...at first I was having Jake go easy on him because he was so little and didn't know any better, but he's become quite the rogue about it lately and it's time.  He's a big boy now.  So, I gave Jake the green light on teaching him some manners in that area and he's doing so with gusto....now the pup gets a warning growl and a tiny lunge when he tries to grab something from Jake's mouth.  He's learning... 

His fur is really getting deeper and his paws are getting bigger.  He's such a sweety dog.   As soon as work slows down here I'm going to start working with him more on some things..like poop and where to leave it.    On loading up in the truck or car, waiting there until I say he can get down, etc.  Won't be long before he'll need neutered and I'd love it if he could load up in the vehicle by his lonesome so I won't have to lift the big lug up there.  

He and Jake are really getting good wrestling sessions in on these cold mornings...seems like that's a dog's favorite thing to do on a frosty morning, especially if there's a fresh snow.  I love to watch them play and am glad Jake is no longer alone.  Ben is still quiet...not a bit barky, though he's still talking now and again.  I wonder if that will continue...I kind of like it.


----------



## Beekissed

Those paws are growing...I hope he turns out to be a big dog.  I just love walking next to a dog and not having to bend down much to throw your arm around his neck.


----------



## Southern by choice

Me too! 

I also love how they "help you up". I have a bad knee and I am older so when I am sitting on the ground I need help getting up... I call Chunk and he stands there so I can use him to get myself up.


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## BlessedWithGoats

What a nice looking dog that Ben is! 



Southern by choice said:


> I call Chunk and he stands there so I can use him to get myself up.


Aww! That's so sweet!!


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## Beekissed

Hot wired the pop door today...haven't got the chance to see how the pup reacts to it.  The chickens did fine with it.  Going away for a few days so it will be interesting to see if I have eggs in the nest when I come back or not.  

If not it's because I've got the wrong kind of ground rod and clamp for my setup.  I thought I had such things on hand when I bought my charger but found I didn't.  Will buy a fence tester this weekend to see if my wire is getting a good charge anyway and will fix it all if not.  

Spent some good time with him today, just sitting on the grass and snuggling.  He's a big ol' softy, that dog.  Loves attention.  

He's loving his leaf hut house and when it's not real cold Jake sleeps there in the spare pen with the pup, but when it's really cold he retires to his fluffy bed and cozy lean to.  

Got him a huge pork femur basted bone the other day and that should keep him gnawing for a long time.  It's super hard, so won't be chewed up at all, but he can still have the pleasure of gnawing on it to satisfy his teething urges.  

If it gets cold enough I'll let him have the next deer hide to chew on...Jake always loved those to whittle away on all winter.  

He had good tucker for Thanksgiving and also had a nice hot meal the other day of left over venison neck roast, heated up deer scraps, fat and broth.  

I love his quiet confidence and cheerful, sweet nature.  He's advancing even further on waiting to eat and will lie down with his head on his paws, looking away from the food, and just wait...and wait..until I tell him "okay".  Very good patience for such a young dog and speaks of his calm nature.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Aww, Good boy Ben!! 
Hope the hot wiring works, so you can start having your eggs again!


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## Beekissed

The simple little hot wire, no more than 10 in. of wire across the top of the opening of the pop door has done the trick.  No more pup in the coop, stealing eggs.  

Chickens go in and out just fine, but not the pup.    

Just in time for my new pullets to start laying...any day now.


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## babsbag

Don't you love it when it works?


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## Beekissed

Yes!  Finally!  It's nice to have him not eating eggs and feed...I found some of his poo from last week and it had egg shells and oats in it.  

Snared a large squirrel, but didn't recover it until the next day, so Ben got a squirrel meal.  He has a voracious appetite but am hoping that will slow down a little now that he's not eating raw eggs every single day.  Will continue to try and snare squirrel this winter for him to eat.  This will save my apple crop and give him raw meat to consume.  

I'm thinking about getting a few rabbits in the spring and using the offspring for our meat and also for the dogs to have fresh, raw meat more often.  It's healthier for them and it will save us on dog food.  We do give them a lot of raw meat during hunting season and beyond, as I freeze deer scraps to feed them later, but it's not the same as having a warm kill to eat and rabbits can be consumed easily, every little bit is gobbled.


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## Baymule

A trio should give you all the rabbit you want. What breed would you get?


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## Beekissed

Most likely New Zealands, but if I can find another likely meat breed on the cheap, I'll take them as well.  I'm more familiar with the NZ, so like to work with them.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Flemish Giants are another bigger breed if you're interested, mine are Flemish Giant crosses.  I haven't tried their meat yet, I do have one that I need to butcher though.


----------



## Hens and Roos

Beekissed said:


> Most likely New Zealands, but if I can find another likely meat breed on the cheap, I'll take them as well.  I'm more familiar with the NZ, so like to work with them.



we have Californian- they work well for us.


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## goatgurl

i have nz/Californian crosses and like them really well.  so glad ben isn't getting into the hen house any more.  love it when a plan comes together.


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## Beekissed

BlessedWithGoats said:


> Flemish Giants are another bigger breed if you're interested, mine are Flemish Giant crosses.  I haven't tried their meat yet, I do have one that I need to butcher though.



Are they thrifty on feed?  How long does it take to grow one out for butchering?  I like how they look but I'm thinking a standard cage wouldn't be big enough to keep them comfy. 

If I do this thing I'll likely build a tractor frame wherein I can place several standard cages that can be joined or separated as I see fit and keep a pair of does and one buck for breeding, with two adjoined cages for grow outs and just stagger my litters so that only one litter at a time will need the grow out cage. 

Then that tractor will be moved to fresh graze over my best forage throughout the day in three seasons, then they can be moved across the green beds in the garden in the winter months, putting their manure where it can do the most good.  They would likely have a mix of kale, beets, spinach, etc. in those beds. 

The tractor would likely be on a lightweight PVC frame with high wheels for easy moving or even just a skid design...I like the skid design the best, much more maneuverable.


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## Ferguson K

Rabbits don't take much. When I raised Californians we had... Ten or twelve? Breeders and it took about a week to go through 50lbs. I don't remember if that was kits included or not.

When I dropped down to three it took an eternity to feed through a bag.


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## Beekissed

I'm thinking of getting away from bagged feeds altogether.  Most likely be doing hay, whole grains and forage, with mineral supplements as needed.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Beekissed said:


> Are they thrifty on feed?  How long does it take to grow one out for butchering?  I like how they look but I'm thinking a standard cage wouldn't be big enough to keep them comfy.
> 
> If I do this thing I'll likely build a tractor frame wherein I can place several standard cages that can be joined or separated as I see fit and keep a pair of does and one buck for breeding, with two adjoined cages for grow outs and just stagger my litters so that only one litter at a time will need the grow out cage.
> 
> Then that tractor will be moved to fresh graze over my best forage throughout the day in three seasons, then they can be moved across the green beds in the garden in the winter months, putting their manure where it can do the most good.  They would likely have a mix of kale, beets, spinach, etc. in those beds.
> 
> The tractor would likely be on a lightweight PVC frame with high wheels for easy moving or even just a skid design...I like the skid design the best, much more maneuverable.


I have about 7 that I'm feeding right now, and I use a 50 lb bag about every two or three weeks. I think a lot of people probably go by age, they can be processed at a couple months I think, but not sure. I haven't processed any yet, but I have one that is about 6 months old that I need to process. I think some people would do it earlier though. Sorry I'm not really any help. 
Here's one website that mentions butchering them at about 3 months... http://www.thefamilyhomestead.com/meatrabbits.htm


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## goatgurl

i just have the two does and one buck and they each get 1/2 to 3/4 cup of pellets daily plus all they hay they want.  takes me forever to go thru a bag of feed and i feed about 2 flakes of hay a week.  i give them the same hay that i feed my goats.  they are all in separate cages and i put the hay between the cages so everyone can reach it, that way i don't have to put individual feeders in each cage.  the doe cages are 24x42 and the buck cage is 24x18.  i would have liked for the cages to be a little longer because i kind of hate to have them in a cage all the time but that is what was available and i got them at a really great price.  i only have one big grow out cage so i try to time it so the girls kindle at the same time and then move the babies to the grow out cage all at the same time.  i have thought about colonies but have been told that you have more parasites etc if they live on the ground so i keep mine up.   i keep large plastic totes under the cages to catch the poo, pee and wasted hay then use that for the garden.  works out pretty good for me.  i butcher at about 8-12 weeks.  mostly depends on when sil and dd can get here to help


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## Beekissed

I was just sitting here watching the dogs play and it's always a delight.  A person can learn a lot about how dogs communicate and show affection by watching their play time.  

My older dog is the eternal puppy when it comes to play...he initiates it, he's the most active and he's the one that decides when it stops.   He also will play the submissive play partner time and again for the more dominant type dog, willingly showing submission.  I don't see that as him being the weaker dog, because when it really counts he is in control.  I've never seen a single dog~no matter how big or supposedly aggressive towards other dogs~succeed in dominating Jake, not even for a brief second, during those initial introduction phases.  He's a force to be reckoned with and has confidence in that regard.  He can't be forced into submission....but I've seen him give it willingly when inviting play.  

I love Jake for that meekness in him....meek is the attribute of being strong but humble.  

He's also got speed few dogs his age could muster..he was always lightning fast and I think that is the Border Collie blood in him.  This pup can't even hope to keep up with him, though he tries his best.  The pup will tire of playing long before Jake does and it's all due to that lightning speed of Jake's chase and retreat.  Jake finally will approach and seems to submit to restore the pup's confidence and willingness to play.  Sort of like letting the slow kid in a game of tag finally catch you so they won't get mad and go home. 

I love, love, love that Jake now has a companion with which to play and socialize.  There's few things more fine than having one of your own kind with whom to communicate and share companionship.  

I love it when I see the muscles in their thighs rippling...both dogs are getting good exercise and healthy, specie appropriate play.  Jake is definitely less needy for human approval and affection when he has another dog, though he's needy still by anyone's standards.  He lives for approval and affection, a very Lab like trait I love in the breed.  

I'm ever tickled over Ben's long, long tail.  He's a tall dog and it still hangs to the ground, having to curl upward to keep from dragging.  I love the wiggling way he walks, much like a lion, with the whole pelvis swiveling with each step...the dew claws and long tail add to that rear view and he very much looks like a great cat strolling along.  

The hot wire on the coop has been effective and he is also training well to the wireless fence boundary...when he accidentally crosses it and gets shocked he knows enough to retreat back to the safety of the circle instead of proceeding further outside the boundary.  That's one reason I love the wireless fence vs. the in ground, it will continue to shock the dog well past the boundary fence, so they can't run quickly over the boundary, take the hit and go about their merry way....they keep getting shocked for many yards past the boundary and they learn to retreat to get it to stop.  When I had the in ground system my dog would take a running go at the boundary, yip as he was passing the wire and keep going, free of the signal a few yards past the wire.  Then he couldn't get back in the boundary without getting shocked, so he'd sit out there and bark to be let back in to the yard.  

No so with the wireless fence...they don't get shocked upon reentry to the system, so it's geared towards negative reinforcement when they leave but positive reinforcement when they stop trying to leave.  

I love that security and knowing the dogs can run, play, explore, even hunt inside their boundary but they aren't roaming the neighboring woods, getting shot by the neighbors.


----------



## Baymule

Isn't it fun watching the dogs play? Ben has brought new life to Jake, he has a playmate now. Animals get lonely by themselves.


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## Beekissed

I agree.  Jake has been alone too long and it's so fine to see him have someone other than me to be with...I'm a poor substitute for a dog.  

Found this helpful training tip....


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## Baymule

Do THAT'S why my dog wags his tail and laughs at me when I am griping at him!!


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## goatgurl

i love to watch my emma play with JJ the new English shepherd pup.  em is small and fast, she can cut a corner, duck under a car and turn on a dime.  just when JJ thinks she has caught up with emma she ducks out and heads the other way.  emma is over 12 years and JJ is just 6 months.  they make me laugh.  and yes beekissed I'm sure that JJ just hears bla, bla, bla when i'm fussing at her for stealing my socks.


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## Beekissed

Can't wait until we actually get some snow this year...that really makes Jake a happy pup and this new pup hasn't seen snow yet, so it should be a joy to watch them play in the new fallen snow...if we ever get any.  

For some reason it's the frosty mornings, new snow or just nasty subzero temps that the dogs love the most...guess they don't get too overheated when they play during those times.  Jake will roll in new snow and rub his body all over it, so there's something going on there...maybe the snow cleanses him or kills fleas or just provides a really good scratch, who knows?  I've seen horses do the same thing.  Both types of animals will get up from a good snow roll and scratch, shake their hides to remove the excess and stroll away looking content.


----------



## Beekissed

Eli saw Ben doing something today that gave me hope that he will actually fulfill his breed traits one day.  Said he heard a chicken squawking and turned to see the rooster breeding a hen, saw Ben run over there and nudge the rooster off the hen's back with his nose and then stand there and watch them walk away.  :faint

Kinda cute if you think about it and I'm glad he's responding to a hen in distress call, but just never seen a dog do that before.  I'm hoping that will translate into him guarding his chickens from other dogs and preventing a dog from attacking a chicken, much like he must have thought the rooster was doing.


----------



## Southern by choice

That is good and YES that is what you want to see. Good boy Ben!
Thanks to the dogs we have no more hawks at our place! We use to lose at least one bird a week to hawks! The hawks stay on my neighbors land now! 

"Blue" hates crows and goes nuts. Buzzards too.

Nothing like a great dog!


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## goatgurl

Good boy Ben!!  He's gonna make a dog yet.  Big and Rose use to circle the tree that had a hawk, owl or buzzard in it daring them to come down to goat or chicken level.  Katie sits and watches when she sees big birds in the sky.


----------



## Beekissed

My Lucy, a GP/Lab mix I had, hated the big birds as well and wouldn't even let a crow land on the place.  She'd jump up in the air, barking like mad, when a hawk or buzzard flew low over the place.  Jake used to run after them but started getting very complacent about it in his older age, so I'm hoping Ben will be a good "hawk dog" like Lucy was. 

So far I'm amazed and very, very thankful that he's not a bark happy dog...hoping he's taking a cue from Jake on that score, as I just can't stand a habitual barker.  We live in the woods, so lots of movement out there at times and it's good when a dog knows friend from foe when it comes to wildlife.  

I love my quiet.


----------



## Beekissed

Ben's first snow today...he seemed to enjoy it, but not as much as my dogs normally do.  He tends to be a sober dog, which is okay and will stand him in good stead in his life, but I thought it was unusual that he wasn't leaping and rolling in it like Jake normally does.  Maybe when we get a deeper, fluffier snow....

I'll be building an addition onto Jake's house before next winter so they can sleep together instead of in separate houses.  They seem to like doing that and it will provide each with more warmth.  I think I'll put a sunroof in it so the southern exposure on that side can warm up the interior before nightfall.


----------



## Beekissed

Have been doing research into the various breeds that make up the dog of Ben and it's enthralling.  I think he may end up the size of the Maremma, as his mother was that size, but his tail, body style, fur, etc. are pure Anatolian in appearance...even down to the way he moves.  I love the way he moves...graceful and lithe, like a big cat.  

His serious little face even looks like the Anatolian, with the ear and head shape and size and that steady gaze...a little aloof but still intense and engaged.  And he's so very calm, has been from the beginning, which is pretty distinctive of all three breeds. 

I've noticed Jake letting him take the lead on things...at this very moment Jake is sitting back at center and letting Ben move out to the perimeter and be on alert for an approaching vehicle...it travels past our driveway on its way to our neighbor's home.  No sound...just a sign of vigilance.  "I see you", Ben says, "and I'm ready for what you may do". 

That silent intensity and alertness, I have found, is far more disconcerting to many people than a dog that is bouncing around and barking.  A quiet dog is an unknown factor, particularly if that tail is still, head is up and watching you, body at readiness.  

I think, of all three breeds that make up his genetics, the Anatolian intrigues me the most.  I'm hoping that he will lean heavily towards those traits as he grows and hoping I'll get to see more of the Anatolian action besides how he looks or moves.


----------



## Southern by choice

They are special indeed. I really love the Purebreds but a well bred LGDxLGD cross can make for an incredible dog.
I do see however when there are too many crosses, even if they are all LGD breeds, the dogs tend to have more issues.

I am looking for another Anatolian too bring in over the next 2 years... getting hard to find good ones. I see so many SMALL toli's it's disturbing. Then there is the demodec issue. It is popping up in many lines. 

I too love the cat like moves. Callie often looks like a Mountain Lion- low, shoulders up, slinking along, crouched like she is stalking- then she leaps into action.


----------



## Beekissed

You'd think those crosses would give them some mutt vigor.    Yeah...I'd like to see this dog get a true Anatolian size but I doubt it will happen, judging by the size of his feet and his current growth rate, coupled with the size of the parent dogs~both small for their dominant breeds, IMO.  

Not that I want a dog to be oversized for its breed, but I sure don't like to see undersized either.  That happy middle is why they have breed standards.  

Southern, do you tend to favor the more fawn or buckskin coloring on your Anatolians or do you care?  I tend to favor those colorings if I had a choice...love the black mask/markings of those dogs.


----------



## Southern by choice

I like the fawn/black mask and Pinto best. Funny, I love the pyr which is predominantly white but an all white toli wouldn't be first choice. Although I have seen some beauties! There again my Pyrs all have badger markings. 

Where we are there are no "real" wolves so a smaller LGD wouldn't have any issues... I just look at the fact that if people keep breeding small it will eventually be a problem as dogs won't be able to handle a real formidable foe. On the flip side I am not a fan of just breeding for large either. Tried and proven parent stock, structure, temperament is the best dog to breed IMO. 

Amy is short stuff for one of our dogs- still in the standard but shorter than the others yet she is a force to be reckoned with.


----------



## goatgurl

the toil's I've had have all been on the big size, big (that was his name 'cause he was) weighed in at 155# the last time he was at the vets and his partner rose was around 110#.  and you are so right about their cat like actions.  i loved the heck out of those two.  the last male that i had was jasper and he went about 120#.  now i have kate, the Maremma who is a wimpy 85#.  both breeds have their +'s and -'s imo.  ds#1 has a karacahan sp? who is also an excellent guardian.  i love the toil color too.  sadly my Katie is just a bwd  and white is my least favorite color, but she does such a good job i ignore the color thing.


----------



## Beekissed

I don't mind the white either, as it's not too many big dog breeds out there that are all white and especially around here.  My last white dog was a GP mix and she stood out quite a bit, got a lot of attention.  

I do love that fawn coloring and black trim, though...it just appeals to my eye.  

I've got my eye out for getting a wooden wire spool or two for Ben to get up on...right now he's trying to sit in some lawn chairs we have up at his place of abode and he's getting too big for them.  He needs a big dog chair/look out.


----------



## goatgurl

yes, Katie gets on top of the round bales of hay or the concrete culverts so she can survey her world.  she hates it when the goats and sheep eat it down but goes right back up when i get a new bale.


----------



## Southern by choice

The dogs love them as much a the goats! 
We use to have (psycho  ) Amy out front and the big spool was hers. She would share with the goats but it was her spool. Everyone everywhere around here knew our land by Amy.
They's say oh- you live where the big white dog sits on the spool! That dog is awesome- she OWNS that field. 

We would go to functions in the community and people would say where do you live? I'd say the old ***** house and if they weren't inthe area for 50 + years they'd say where? Someone inevitably would say- Where the big white dog that sits on the spools lives. ooooooooh

Amy isn't in that field anymore. Now it is Chunk and Pups. One day she might come back up but at night she goes to the far corner and barks at the fox den across the way...  She also hates our neighbor. 

We had a guy drop off 5 more spools this week. He stopped by one day and asked if we could use some more... we said sure. He actually delivers them right to us. We have to fix the holes in the top though- afraid a goat or dog will injure themselves getting their foot/leg stuck.


----------



## goatgurl

serious spool envy here!


----------



## BlessedWithGoats

I love that Southern! "Where the big white dog that sit's on the spool lives"!!


----------



## Ferguson K

People know us by my great white horse. Of you live where the white horse that always gets out is! --- ...yeah. That's my escape artist.


----------



## Southern by choice




----------



## Beekissed

Heard Ben really bark for the first time tonight...nice and deep bark, very nice to listen to.  Didn't bark more than 4 notes and then stopped.  Love that! I've heard him give a little woof now and again, but nothing like tonight's song...deep and bell-like.  Quite pleasant.  

He's such a sweety and seems eager to learn....I've not found any poop in the yard for some time now, which is GREAT.   He has learned the feeding ritual pretty well.  He's still very much the big, galumphing puppy when it comes to Aliza, my little sweety, and will bowl her right over or slap her in the face with his tail.... but I think she actually LIKES it when that happens.  She smiles and laughs...she's a tough little cookie.   She even called him "good boy" and tried to kiss his rump the same day he knocked her over, so it's all good with Ben and Aliza.  I think she will really like roughin' around with him as she gets more size on her. 

With it being so soupy out now, I'd dearly love to find him a wooden spool on which to lie out of the wet grass.   I'll be keeping my eyes and ears open for some, as he really needs it now rather than later...he's gotten much too big for the chairs we have in his area.

I might be able to convince my son to build me a mock stool out of a huge tree stump and scrap lumber we have here.  That just may be my solution.


----------



## Southern by choice

Maybe you can find a picnic table on craigslist... they like those too.
So sweet....

You need to update with pics though... feel the withdrawals coming on.


----------



## Beekissed

I'll try to get some pics later on today, S.  Been so very busy just with maintenance chores around here that I've not had time to take many pics.  

We have two picnic tables but there's not a chance my mother will sacrifice one for a "dirty ol' dog".  I'd have to find another for real cheap and convince her we need it as a work station up by the shed.  I'll keep my eyes open for one.


----------



## Beekissed

Still didn't get a pic of Ben.  Heard him barking again last night...really pretty bark.  I also noticed that Jake was NOT barking.  And that's Jake...he doesn't like to bark, though he loves to "talk".  He is very comfortable letting a partner dog do all the barking unless there is a really big threat, when he will chime in. 

When I hear Jake barking along with his help mate, I know it's serious.  

Still, Ben is not turning into a "barker" yet, which I love.  That's one of the hardest things to do, IME...train a habitual barker out of that habit.  

Had to loosen his collar again today...inch by inch he's filling out.  I need to clip his nails again...they really grow fast!  I've only clipped Jake's nails twice in his whole life and he's 10.  I've clipped Ben's once and they need it again and he isn't even 6 mo. old yet.  Just different ways their foot is formed, with Ben's feet looking more like a bear's foot, while Jake's feet are more like a cheetah's.  

I need to take the time to work with Ben more, one on one, and get him used to being handled, used to following and doing things along with me.  Jake is so distracting and both dogs push each other away if any attention is shown to one over the other.   Big poo poo heads!  

I need to take time and just BE with Ben, no training, no distractions, just being together.  I've been so busy this season that I've had no time for that and I need it to happen.  He and I need to have some special time...he's such a great dog and he's so loving and eager to be loved, that I'd like to give him some time of his own.  Every dog needs that, just like every kid needs it...just time, pets, talking, walking, sitting, lying in the grass and being together.


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## Southern by choice

I so know what you mean... the Toli/pyr pups don't care. Happy to see us and get attention but then they are done.
My heart belongs to "D" and Chunk. They are _my_ boys. Soulful.
I love to sit down and Chunk lays his head on my lap. Melts my heart.
The other day the younger children were down over the neighbors- long driveway- can't see the neighbors house at all... but Chunk knew they were there and could hear them. He sat by the tree facing the drive for hours. Waiting on them to come back. Every once in a while he'd circle check dogs goats perimeter and then return.
Hope you don't mind me posting a pic. 
There is something so special when you get that "time".


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## Beekissed

Awwwwwwww...that pic breaks my heart!    They are just so needy, aren't they?  One part of me pities them and wishes they were more self contained and independent and another part of me wouldn't have it any other way.  I love a dog that loves humans.   

My dogs spend a good bit of their time sitting and watching the house, just waiting for us to come out and be with them.   When I let them inside the house, they follow me from room to room, no matter how briefly I am going to be in another room...on days they get to come inside, can't even go in the bathroom without a dog or cat wanting to watch me go potty.    It's kind of sad in a way, that we feature so largely in their lives.

My kids used to get really frustrated because the dogs wanted to be with me and wouldn't play with them as long as I was outside....just wanted to sit near me all the time and be petted.  Don't know what that is all about unless it's all tied up in the whole alpha leader thing...must work for all animals because anywhere I go outside they all want to sit next to me~cow, sheep, chickens, cat, dogs, etc.  I've even had cow and dogs tussling for positions closer to me.     My kids said I look like Ace Ventura sometimes as I'm choring around in the yard and have this big string of animals following me back and forth.  

Ideally, I would have the kind of life where they could be by my side no matter where I went, but we both have jobs to do and must get on with doing those jobs.  But, sometimes, it's time for snuggles and I don't mind saying so...does us both good to have snuggles and it's why God gave us this partnership in life with these good animals.  They help us, we help them and sometimes, oh, sometimes we get to stop in our daily lives and take time for a snuggle.


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## babsbag

Beekissed said:


> can't even go in the bathroom without a dog or cat wanting to watch me go potty.



Oh I so understand that. I have two border collies that are in the house full time and 5 cats. But I think one of the hardest laughs I had was from a friend of mine that boards dogs at her home. The dogs are allowed free run of her house and she usually limits it to 5 dogs plus her 3. But one year she overbooked for the Christmas holidays and she had 14 dogs in her house for a weekend and she said that the only way she could go to the bathroom without an audience was to go outside and use the porta potty that she has there for her agility class. Can you imagine 14 dogs trying to follow you everywhere you go? It would be comical, for a short while at least.


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## Southern by choice

Babs that is funny but would make me nuts.  I don't like "needy" dogs.
Chunk isn't needy- don't be sad Beekissed- he is what you would call "ultra gaurdy" -he sees the children much like his goats. I was in the field putting up wire the whole time... he could care less his focus is always on his "charges".
I think that is what I love the most about the guardian breeds- they are never needy, happy to see us but not needy. I couldn't deal with a dog like that. I like loyalty- a loyal dog is my kinda animal.

There is nothing like a great dog. Jake sounds like he has been a great dog for your family.


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## Beekissed

Ben outperformed his mentor two days in a row and is making Jake look a fool at feeding time.  I'm very proud of him on that.  Now he lays down before being told and holds it without being reprimanded for jumping the gun...he's learning and it's a delight to see him work for his food in this way.  

I'm loving his new, thicker winter coat and I'm starting to see his body fill out and thicken up, starting to see the dog growing out of the pup body.  I'll try to get a pic of him tomorrow if I can.  

Not one doggy dropping in the yard for a long time and I'm rejoicing on that...nothing I dislike more than walking in a big pile of dog poop in my own yard.  

I'm going to build him a pallet look out station, as I can't find any of the wooden spools at all.  I'm also working on his dog house tomorrow, in preparation for moving him out of his temporary digs.  Will locate him up next to Jake's dog house, with the opening coming out under the "porch" on Jake's place.   Tomorrow I insulate the top part of his house, while lining the bottom part with his dog bed and fresh hay...lots of it.  Going to get a little cold weather here, finally, so want him to be snug.  

I'm so very pleased that he is a quiet and confident dog, without the need to bark nervously all night like some dogs do.  I love my silent nights.  ''

I need to finally get those nails of his clipped...never got around to it.  I'd also like to work with him tomorrow on loading up in the truck.  He'll be going to get neutered soon and I want him to feel good about getting in the truck and out again... getting in truck beds makes him nervous.


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## Beekissed

Dug out Jake's old dog house~large, Igloo style house~ and insulated the roof and attached a feed sack flap to the front door. Cut away the windbreak wall on Jake's current abode and placed Ben's new digs in the opening so that his entryway will be sheltered under the same porch as Jake's. Will download pics of it later. 

Put it up on blocks so it won't be on the cold ground, placed his cedar filled gunny sack bed in the bottom and filled the house the rest of the way with sweet, fresh hay. I don't know if he understands that this is where he is expected to sleep from now on because he's a little slower on the uptake than Jake and won't "go in the house" when directed, even when shoved or pulled...acted like that dog house was the shadow of the valley of death. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Oh, well....he'll either get in there and sleep or be very cold tonight, because I shut down his old sleeping place to force the matter. Right now he's perched in a lawn chair, looking very forlorn.


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## Southern by choice

Lol - I just let mine figure it out... When we put up wire through the woods and move the goats and dogs about we put out hoop houses or pallet houses ... dogs rarely go in them but they know they are there. Most of the time our LGD's don't sleep in something "enclosed" as they cannot guard that way. With the teams we have some will go in the barn and stay with goats, sometimes sleep under the loafing area, but the rest sleep out on the land to guard. 
Most LGD's  won't sleep in a dog house  goes against their natural ingrained instinct.


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## Beekissed

That's good to know, S.  I'll keep a soft place for him~hay pallet~ on the porch of the shed...it's open and where he's used to sleeping.  The pen he's been sleeping in needs to be worked on and soon will be holding my breeding rooster, so Ben had to find new digs. 

I can't seem to get good pics of this dog.  If I have something in my hand, he wants to have his nose on it~camera.  If I have him sit or stand at a distance he looks like I've beat him or something...he must always be up my rear or he feels offended.    So, no good pics of that slinky walk or loopty loop tail that I love to see...just Ben wishing he were in my lap.  





















You want to see something freaky...Jake as a young dog and his old partner, Lucy, Lab/GP mix, 10 yrs ago.  It's uncanny how similar these pics are.


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## Latestarter

He's a very handsome pup. He's gonna be a big boy. Really nice how you caught the picture of young replacing old with Jake taking Lucy's place as the elder.


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## Southern by choice

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Too sweet. Ben sure is growing up! You gotta put his age though- this old brain can't remember these things. 
Love those brown eyes!  The days he is a good boy is the pyr in him, the days he is naughty and stubborn is the Toli in him. 

Not sure if you smooch faces on dogs but he has the most smoochable mug! I just love these young pups. 
Oh the pics... tell me about it... all the pups were on the spools all in a row it was so cute- we were working and they were watching us work (Chunk out and about with Callie) it was going to be a great picture- _WAS_ key word there.... asked DD to go get the phone so I could grab the pic- she does, as soon as I got the phone they heard something and all jumped down- never returned. Grrrr
I really should carry the phone around.

I have a duplicate pic too but it was an old Shepherd with our old Boxer, and the other pic is a complete different Shepherd with a complete different boxer...


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## Beekissed

I do smooch the face...very soft and puppy fur still on the face.  He'll be 6 mo. old here in a few days.  Don't know if his size is on track for his breeds or if he'll take his size from his mother, which was pretty small for her mix, IMO.  

Don't you think his ears look very Maremma?  Very forward on his head compared to my other dogs and shorter ears.  

Here's a pic of a Maremma pup and it's Ben's face looking at me...






My mom would call Ben a "duke's mixture".  Never did know what that refers to but means he's a Heinz 57...a mutt.  And it shows.    Very wiry, coarse guard hairs on his back that are wavy, long Toli tail, Maremma ears and head, and a sweetness like the GP.


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## Southern by choice

Ben looks stocky,looks like he is going to have a powerhouse structure!  Maremmas are generally on the shorter side for LGD breeds, so ya never know... your right Maremmas have higher ear set but a lot of pyrs do too... his muzzle reminds me of a pyr.
Of course any lankiness can only be attributed to the toli. 
Alot of female pyrs are "small"  but doesn't seem to affect the size of their male offspring. Small of course being a relative term... 

Does Ben have a ridge that runs down his nose? It looks like it in the one pic.

Ben looks like a dream.


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## goatgurl

the picture of the Maremma pup looks so much like my Katie who is purebred Maremma.  what ever he is he's a cutie.


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## Beekissed

I hadn't noticed a distinct ridge there.  I'll have to watch for it as he grows...is that typical of any of those breeds?  

I didn't do mount up training this morning but will provide a step up and work on it with stacked pallets with stair steps to get him used to jumping up small steps first.  He doesn't seem to be as agile as my Labs and Lab mix dogs have been, so must start thinking in terms of bigger and heavier dog when I think about training.  

He slept in his dog house last night, so that was good.  I opened up his usual lounge spot today where both dogs like to lounge on a pile of hay and leaves, so he may revert back to that for nights.  He likes to be near Jake, so he just might prefer to sleep in the dog house until he gets older and more independent.  He only has to guard that coop at night and it's 3 ft. in front of his nose when he's lying in his dog house, so it won't pull him off guard to sleep there.


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## Southern by choice

LOL I always see these lugs as big clunky dogs... kind of oafish... but then when they take off and need to do something they are so graceful and quick and agile on the move it is always amazing.

I have found the longer the body length the harder it is for stairs leaps and jumps... takes longer with them.


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## Beekissed

I don't know much about the Maremma breed, but after reading a lot about the Anatolian breed, I've come to believe that Ben has a lot more of their breed traits than his GP side.  I've had a GP mix and also had a full GP for a short while, but my sister used to breed and raise GPs also, so I'm familiar with the breed.  Ben has the natural sweetness of the GPs and of that I'm grateful.

I've noticed several things about Ben that seem to match up with the Anatolian breed.  He uses his paws much like a cat does and will hook a leg, object or Jake with his paw in an attempt to catch/stop/slow down progress.   He does a lot of talking when he's impatient...some rowls and arrrs and the occasional yip.

He mimics Jake in many ways...he's incredible about that in some ways.  I'm used to seeing a young dog pick up some behaviors from an older dog, but not down to the details like Ben does.  I was reading an article tonight that mentions that about training the breed and a light came on...

http://www.anatoliandog.org/poultry.htm




> Anatolians are also great mimics; think about what you are doing, before you do something in front of them! Dig a little in a garden, and they are glad to help you out by digging deeper, pick some fruit, and they'll try to make your job easier by pulling off a few branches. Chase a few animals (to medicate them, they got loose, etc.), and your dog may decide that he should help out and try to catch some too. Older dogs know that only you have this privilege, but try not to give puppies ideas. This is why an already trained dog is worth his weight in gold - they act as mentors', as the pup will watch the older dog and do as he does. This can backfire, however, if the old dog has some undesirable behaviors, as the younger dog will learn them as well.




He picked up like lightning about the feeding ritual here and does it in his own way but now does it better than Jake.  But the subtle little details he picks up is what amazes me....Jake will "fake" disinterest in the food, by lying down and putting his head to one side on one paw, facing away from the food~but his eyes will be on that food all the while.  Now, few people would notice that little nose to the side positioning, as if to say "I'm calm and not excited about the food...can I have it now?" and see it for what it is...a dog faking compliance.  It amuses me to no end to see Jake do that!

But imagine how funny it was to see little Ben pick that up by his second month here?  When it's a miracle that he is even lying down and waiting with minimal instruction, but to put that head down on one paw, face to the side away from the food and "fake" a calm position is just too funny!  All the while those eyes are darting towards the food and the back end is tense for springing up and racing to the food.

He also bounces Jake out of the way when I'm trying to pet Jake.  That is a Jake move, through and through.  It was not a Ben move for the first few months, but yesterday I realized Ben is a butt bouncer now too...shoving Jake to one side with powerful sweeps of his haunches to get between him and me, trying to get the affection.   Delicious to see Jake getting some of his own medicine, which he used to do to my old dog, Lucy.  She was bigger but still couldn't keep up with the faster Jake, bouncing her out of the way with his powerful haunches.

The real clincher yesterday was when he kept trying to lay his head on my chest while I was replacing the batteries in Jake's collar.  That's a Jake move as well...he will come up to me as I am seated and lay  his head on my chest, gazing deeply into my face like he just wants to drown in my eyes.  Jake's a true romantic.    That tail will be whipping like a metronome while the front end is glued solid to my chest..waiting.  I must pay attention, the eyes are willing me to do so...I'm thinking he could bend a spoon with that concentration.  

Now Ben is a boob man too.  Big head on my chest, back end just agoin', while I'm trying to struggle with something in my hands with this big dog laying across me.  Shove it to the side and it just comes back until you stop what you are doing, pet the head and muzzle, whisper sweet everythings in that moochy face.  Big babies!

Jake really only has a few bad habits~eating too quickly is one~ but I'm hoping Ben does NOT mimic this one....overt friendliness and openness to new dogs on the property~namely strays.  I'm hoping his breed trait of being territorial will override Jake's example of dog friend to all dogs.  He probably won't become territorial until he's older, but I sure hope he gets there or I have not achieved part of my purpose of getting this second dog to help Jake.

Until then I'm loving seeing his Anatolian traits, which are very new to me and will no doubt be a continual learning process.


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## Beekissed

Interesting Ben moment this evening...saw him bump the rooster again. Did it very gently but firmly too, which is good to see. The rooster started breeding a hen right in front of us and Ben hurried over and bumped him off the hen with his nose, then stood quietly and watched the rooster walk away. 

Guess he thought they were fighting and wasn't going to allow that. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Clipped nails this evening with the help of Eli...he just held them on his lap and let me do the manicures, which was the easiest nail trimming I've ever done. 

Ben is sure growing into his personality and I find I'm really liking this dog. His head is getting big and is still soft like a puppy, while his body is starting to fill out more and fur getting deeper. He just might turn out to be a really pretty dog when he's through.

He's so tuned in now too.  He was lying down, eyes closed, some feet away and I whispered his name...his eyes came open.  I whispered it again and he hopped up and came to me.  Good hearing, great response!


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## Beekissed

Ben and his matching chickens....he's 6 mo. old in this pic, to the day.   This was taken at a distance, through the window, because it's the only way I can get a pic of these two when they aren't staring at me like I have food or something.  

He's been breaking Jake's records around here....he consumed an entire turkey carcass in under 2 min. time.  Filling out and growing like a weed.  Jake is letting him take point more and more and it's a good thing to see.


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## Southern by choice

What a nice picture!


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## Beekissed

I'll really have to watch this move of Ben's of breaking up the chicken matings...just now I saw him do that, but afterwards he kind of loped after the rooster.  I gave him a verbal correction on it and will from now on~from now on he is not allowed to break up the mating sessions...it was cute at first, but now it's turning into something else.  My goal is that he ignore the chickens unless they give distress sounds of a predator attack, so I'll have to teach that to him along the way.  

In this maneuver he is breaking away from following Jake's example, so I'm assuming this is part of his breed instincts coming to fore....but I'm watching this closely.  There must NEVER be a time he feels it's okay to chase the chickens..not even at a slow pace.  

He has responded very well to just verbal corrections in the past, so I'll see how this goes...as he gets older he grows in independence, so this sort of behavior may be a tad harder to get a handle on.  But...it must happen...so we'll figure it out together.


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## Beekissed

Today I was able to correct Ben a couple of times for subtle~ but too much~ attention towards disturbing the chickens.

Early in the day he was jumping around and barking towards the pop door as the chickens busily scratched around inside the coop...I yelled at him from the house to cut it out and he stopped and never went back to it.   Later I found that the chickens had knocked a bag of suet cake down to the coop floor and he could smell it in there...I think the barking and posturing was to scare the chickens away from that potential meal. 

Later in the day I was walking to the coop to feed, dogs and chickens all around me, and Ben kept hopping around in front of the progress, each time sending chickens squawking and flying out of his way.  Twice it happened before I realized that he was doing this intentionally...it was subtle and you really had to watch his head when he did this(sometimes it happens when the dogs are just really excited about being fed and they move around alot while the chickens are walking alongside...but this time, I could see he was clearing the path).  It was clear to me he was having a little TOO much fun in this maneuver.  A stern verbal correction sent him to heel and walking sedately behind me.  He definitely is getting the message that he's not to show any attention to those chickens, be it overt or subtle.

I'm going to work with him later on in the week, one on one, just spending time with him, reconnecting and just being alone together.  He needs to know I'm still focused on him in a big way and still expect him to see me as alpha, even as he grows into his own position in this pack.  He's doing very well in other respects towards that goal and this increased attention to the chickens is fairly new, so he just needs a little reinforcing and tweaking.  He's a very smart dog, so I just need to figure out how to make it easy for him to understand the goal. 

Each dog is like a puzzle, really, so what works for one dog just may not work for another.  Learning what works for him is my job and I've been so busy lately that I've put his training on the back burner...time to take that back up again and work with this older version of pup. 

One thing I have going for me...he respects me and seems VERY eager to please me and that's better than half the battle.  He's a sweet dog and likes to take instruction, I just need to put it in his particular language.  In other words, I'm still in training on the education of Ben.


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## Beekissed

I had to let Ben's collar out another inch today.  That dog is growing in leaps and bounds, filling out nicely.  That's the second time in a month or so he's had to have that collar let out.  

He's loving the snow we've finally gotten and seems made for it...white dog on a white background makes him a very stealthy guardian!  

I'm happy to report that he is "getting" the fact that I know his new game of moving the chickens along and today he started to do that little move, got half way through a jump in their direction while I was walking up to feed and thought better of it, checked himself in mid air and retreated to left heel without being told.  He got much approval for that.  Good dog!!!


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## Beekissed

Ben is loving the deep snow and Jake is loving that Ben is out there keeping guard in the deep snow.     I notice that Jake is taking the luxury of staying in his warm bed on these cold, snowy mornings and letting Ben stand guard for the food bringer and all things on the homestead.  I so LOVE that.  Jake's getting older and this was the perfect time to get him some help out there and God sent me the perfect breed/dog for the job.  

They both played like pups in the snow all morning after a breakfast of deer liver and kibble.  Ben is still belly deep in the snow, exploring and sniffing this new, white world and Jake is snuggled into the hay somewhere letting the next generation do the patrolling.


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## Beekissed

Snow dogs...







This polar bear kept stalking me...had blood on his muzzle from his most recent kill of deer liver.  Everywhere I went, there he was!  Spooky.  






Here he is again, crouched for the kill...not very successful at hiding behind this brown dog.  






Do you wanna build a snowmaaaaaan?  It doesn't have to be a snowmaaaannnn.  Ok, byyyyyyye.


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## Beekissed

As soon as the weather breaks I want to do some work with Ben on escorting my mother out to the mailbox, along with Jake, and obeying her commands.  She is a very soft presence, so I'm going to be training her more than Ben but she also soon forgets the training, so Ben will have to remember her status like Jake does.  I think she's afraid of Ben, afraid he won't mind her when she needs him to, afraid of his sheer size and puppy enthusiasm.  

Also want to work with him on respecting Aliza, my 19 mo. granddaughter.  He really violates her space and I've neglected training specifically for that, but it has to happen.  I'll likely borrow the stroller and walk him with her in the stroller, then walk him with her holding my leash hand, then see if I can get her to carry the leash on her own and walk him beside us.  

He really needs some brushing up on his manners as we enter the crucial age in his life, when he starts becoming more assertive and independent.  I've neglected that training in the busy fall season but I really need to work on it now before busy spring hits...I'll have chicks on the ground then and he needs to respect smaller, weaker presence before then.  He also needs to see Mom and Aliza as part of my pack and respect their position in that pack over him.  

Should be interesting to see how Mom and Aliza respond to their training.


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## Beekissed

Did Mom's first training this morning, letting her see the feeding ritual and showing her how to wait patiently for the dogs to settle down at first greeting before proceeding towards the coop to feed the chickens.  That's Mom's hardest thing to overcome, that lack of patience with an animal.  

I showed her how the chickens don't get fed until they stop leaping up onto the feeder and wait patiently for me to portion out the feed.  If they persist, I gently knock them off the feeder and continue to wait.  It doesn't even take a full minute until they are all standing still and watching me instead of jumping around acting like fools.  If this flock were more lethal I'd make them wait to come to the feeder until I let them, but these are all gentle, docile birds.  

I've had pens of numerous roosters before, penned for butchering and feeding up on FF, that I trained to get back and stay back until I allowed them to come to the feeder. Only took a few days of training before they all caught on and after that I didn't have to wait at all...they just knew to retreat to the far corner and stand still until I left the pen.  

After that training there was much less infighting and no crowing except at daybreak.  It was a pretty cool experiment.  And I didn't have to worry about turning my back or bending over in that pen for fear one of the roosters would take a notion to flog me.  These were not raised here but were picked up~all breeds and ages~for free out of the locals for the purpose of canning them.  

Anyhoo...I digress.  So, she got to see Ben take a follower position after we waiting patiently for them to settle down.  Then she got to see Ben's behavior for the feeding ritual and I must say, he performed it even better than he ever has and even Jake did better just by watching Ben.  I didn't have to say a word to either dog as they laid patiently with head down on paws until I dished out the food.  And they stayed in that position until I said, "Okay."    She was delighted to see that happen, as she had never gotten to see my feeding ritual with Ben yet.  That gives her great comfort to know she won't be fighting lunging and leaping dogs while trying to dish out dog food if she should ever have to do the feeding.  

Then I tucked her arm in mine as we walked down to the house and Ben followed us both.  That was Mom's first training on Ben and it went very well.  When the snow melts off we'll do a pack walk and I'll get Mom to take the lead on Ben and teach him to obey her commands as well as mine.  It will be a process for them both, but very important if she is to work with Ben while I'm not present.  She's 81 and a small lady, so big dogs can be pretty intimidating, especially when they have puppy exuberance.  

She enjoyed her first session, so I'm feeling pretty good about it all.  Now she knows how much to feed the chickens and how to feed them without getting the rush, how much to feed the dogs and how to feed them as well.   All good things to know if something happens to me.


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## Beekissed

Something new to add to Ben's bank of knowledge.  He's learned what gets him the most positive feedback and has started using it elsewhere.  Instead of barking impatiently if I spend too long in the chicken coop, he now lays down with his head down on his front paws, waiting patiently for me to emerge.  He gets much praise for that when I come out.  

When I go out in the mornings and both dogs are waiting at the edge of their boundary for me to come and feed, he used to prance and bound around in excitement...but, if I pause on the back porch steps and just wait a few minutes, that good dog will drop down on the ground, lay down with head on paws.  Good dog!!!! 

I'm loving it that this dog is smart enough to anticipate what I may want...this bodes well for all aspects of his training, as he seems to be working to please me and doing it quicker than he ever did.  He's also no longer pouncing around on the chickens to get them to scatter as we walk along...he's learned I know what he's up to with that little move and I do NOT like it.  Good dog!  

Today I did food training, wherein I put my hand in the food bowl while they eat and kind of mess around in the kibbles.  Jake will try to block me out, which gets him a reprimand and then he reluctantly gives up the food.  Ben tried that a few times, when he did I removed the food until he settled down.  Now when I do it, he just steps politely away from the pan and waits until my hand is out of there.  Desired result!  

I do that one every now and again so they don't start feeling possessive about their food and that they know, I'm not going to take their food from them altogether, I just need to control it for a moment.  This will come in handy when I do the same thing with Aliza and Mom doing it with me.  The dogs need to be really, really okay with Aliza being around while they are eating and they need to be okay if Mom is feeding them too.  Jake's an old hand at this, as this has been happening for him since he arrived as a pup, but Ben needs to learn this as well.  

And he is learning it well....I'm so very proud of him!!!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Aww! Ben sounds like such a wonderful dog!!


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## Beekissed

He's getting there!  I'm praying to God that this continues and that Ben will fulfill his purpose here on the homestead, as he is sorely needed to help Jake in his old age.  Meanwhile, I'm thanking God for bringing us such a good and humble animal to help us.  He's such a gift from God!


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## Beekissed

The "Can't you see how patiently I'm waiting on you?" pose...


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## Ferguson K

Loving the updates!!! He's growing like a weed!!! Way to go Ben!


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## goatgurl

love that he 'gets it' so fast.  he is working his way into being an awesome dog.  and you are such a patient mama. 
my friends in the Buckhannon area of w.va. got just over 2 ft of snow the other day.  how'd youall fair?:


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## Beekissed

Thank you for your kind words, but I'm not near as patient as I would like to be!  

We got around 18 in. only.  They are a bit higher elevation than I am here.  Will be traveling through there tomorrow, in fact.  Go through there twice a month. 

Ben is really making good progress and I'm well pleased with my bargain basement LGD.  I'm not as patient as I would like to be at times, especially when he's goofy rowdy and hurts me accidentally or knocks down little Aliza...he's such a big goof ball.  He can't really help it but it's still a pain in the patoot. 

He had his very first training in the car since arriving here as a 2 mo. old pup~he was car sick that whole trip, so the vehicle is not his favorite place at all.   I put his food dish in the back~hatch back CRV~and invited him up.  He put up his paws and I slowly lifted up the back end and he ate his breakfast in the car.  Then I let him sit there awhile for some loving, then had him lie down for some more lovey time.  Then I invited him down and he seemed mighty glad to get out of that car!  He did very well and didn't try to get down from the car before I released him from it.  Next time I'll give the voice commands for loading up and unloading as we go up and down. 

Next time we'll spend more time in the car until he relaxes into it and realizes we are just spending time together in a new place.  We'll see how he goes with that.   When he's comfortable, I'll invite Jake up there too...Jake needs a lot of work in vehicles as he has never liked to ride.  He's done it many times but not as many as I'd like.


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## goatgurl

the car isn't one of katies favorite places either.  as a 3 year old she is much better than she was at 1 1/2 or 2 years of age.  and i forgot to tell you that Katie does the hug you with her foot thing too.  I've never had an Anatolian do that but miss Maremma does it all the time.  if we are sitting out in the goat yard she sits beside me and wraps her big foot around my leg if i let her.  I'm a mean mama and don't always let her and i would never tell her that i think its kind of cute because of the dominance thing but i do.  i'll be interested to see how ben does with the chickens as he reaches those special teenage years.  kate had a couple of mishaps with poultry in her youth but now just ignores them.  I'm not sure she 'protects' them as much as she just keeps all critters out of her goat yard whereas the 'toil's actively watched for big birds around the place. 
as you go thru Buckhannon wave down route 20 to my friends in French creek.


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## Southern by choice

Oh Beekissed- I feel the same way. BLESSED!  I am always amazed at how each dog really does have their unique personality. Some want to please because they may be more needy for approval, some want to please to show off how smart they are, some just always do the right thing and don't care if you are pleased, some are in perpetual happiness mode, some are obstinate but do it out of playfulness not dominance...  

I hear you on your grandbaby!  This IMO is one of the most interesting aspects of a dog. Why do some just simply "know" and walk gingerly and gently with a 2 year old, while others are still oafish and bump?  Chunk will always help us up off the ground, he stands so I can pull up on him to get up... Not Leo is the protector of the 2 year old that comes to visit, blue will stand there when I need support.... yet some are just aloof.... yet if a goat walks out in front of them they can just leap over them. 

My Dh married into dogs- he didn't have any growing up... funny how all these years later and lots of dogs the ones he loves the most... the LGD's... he is pretty partial to the pyrs but loves the toli/pyr pups.

He doesn't do the care for the animals and so it is funny to watch him try to bring a bucket of feed in for the dogs. Poor guy. 
Those dogs know who is and who is not their master lol. I end up taking the bucket and tell them get back and feed. If not me one of the 3 people that feed here can do it and they will respect their caregivers but it is a whole other thing with anyone else. I accept this because personally I don't want them thinking "anyone" can just feed them.

Our GSD is hilarious. She will not TOUCH her food unless her master is in the room. If he leaves, she steps back and waits.
Kind of a pain really. She will eat if I tell her but same thing I must be present in  the room.

I know with each dog the L-rd shows me something He wants me to see.... of course it is far less about dogs and much more about the "ways" of things... I always feel that when we worship the Creator and NOT the creation the Lord gives us wisdom in what we must do, allows us to learn and see. I know many of us here feel that way and it is nice to be in the company of others that have a similar faith /belief.


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> I know with each dog the L-rd shows me something He wants me to see.... of course it is far less about dogs and much more about the "ways" of things... I always feel that when we worship the Creator and NOT the creation the Lord gives us wisdom in what we must do, allows us to learn and see. I know many of us here feel that way and it is nice to be in the company of others that have a similar faith /belief.



I couldn't have said it better, Southern!  That's exactly what I've found over the years with all the animals.  I refer everything to the Lord and let Him guide me on it.  I only get into trouble when I don't do that and try to push ahead of the Lord on things and get impatient.  

I see MUCH, MUCH worshiping of the creation in the world nowadays and very little deference given to the Creator....and the Bible said it would be so during these times.   I think that's why folks and their animals are all so messed up and unruly.  I've got family with animals, mostly dogs, and their dogs are not enjoyable to be around, which is pretty sad.  

And, yes...it's VERY nice to meet other people who interweave their faith in God throughout all they do, even with raising their animals.  I love this verse...a person has to read it very carefully to get the gist of it, but it's in there.  

*A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.  Proverbs 12:10*


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## Southern by choice

I love that verse!
I know it is a whole other subject but it is the 2nd part of that verse that I see all the time-grieves me to see so many duped and giving to animal sanctuaries, rescues etc but the shelter for women and children are not even a thought... literally I have heard well- it was there own dumb fault for making bad choices... the poor animals didn't do anything.... it makes me sad to see so many give for an animal but don't consider how many families are in need from medical crisis... etc... I am sure you know what I mean.

I love my animals and it was the L-rd that put me in the field I'm in.
I believe we are stewards of all of His creation. 

Thanks for the reminder of that verse! 

And you are so right- sometimes I just have to shake my head and say OK- is this Your will for my life?  (sometimes= more times than I can remember )


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## Beekissed

Exactly!!!  I've heard some horrible, horrible things said from people who compare their animals to their children or to human babies and say they'd rather a child be killed than an animal.   I can't help but think there will be a HUGE reckoning one day when they face the Lord and loved animals more than their fellow man.


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## Beekissed

My boys and I worked with Ben this afternoon about loading up in the back of a truck and he did wonderfully!  Jake was a huge part of the training and showed Ben the way, the boys encouraged Ben to load up and he likes them very much so that was a huge help.  Fifteen minutes of working on it and Ben was loading up easily~with the aid of a step up~and unloading easily without the step down.  He also managed to lie down calmly and wait before being released to get down.  

Jake acted as a great example for this training and Ben likes to copy his example, so it all went more easily than I imagined.  My boys made it fun for him and he seemed to be very calm once he managed to do it on his own...he just needed the confidence to do it.  

We'll keep working on it until it gets to be old hat for him.  Then I'll take him for a drive around the yard while he's in the truck and in the CRV so he can get used to that motion for short trips.   Then we'll progress to longer trips.

He's had a good day!


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## BlessedWithGoats

What a good dog he is!


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## Beekissed

Yes, he is certainly trying his best to be and I appreciate that in him.  Yesterday he got training on what MOVE means.  Also on LEAVE IT.  I'm tweaking the spare pen wherein he's been lounging and sleeping since he arrived, tearing out the walls and removing all the contents...and Ben wanted to help with all of that.    He's very helpful that way.     Underfoot with my every step, every trip to carry heavy things out, he's right in front of me to supervise...finally, after yelling MOVE several times, I remembered....just walk through.  No more loud, frustrated words, just say "move" and walk right through him.  That worked, as it always does.  We'll see if he retained that today, as I'll be working there again.

Jake knows MOVE and stays out of the way, so I expect Ben will learn it after being walked through a couple of times.  He's very smart.  

He also wanted to chew on my tools and various items of junk being thrown away during the project, so he learned "leave it" and responded very well while I was present....don't think that will carry over when I'm not present, so all tools are stored out of pup reach.  I remember Jake's puppy days and a very nice hammer that got the handle chewed off it when left out and unattended over night.  

My youngest son found out that fact the other day.  He had taken great pains to bleach and clean a nice deer skull antler mount for the buck he got this past season.  The other day he left it up in Ben's territory on a lawn chair....over night.  When I found out where he had left it, I told him "You won't have that nice skull in the morning...you'll be lucky to even have antlers left."   He immediately slipped on his boots and went to retrieve his deer skull....or what was left of it.  

Ben left him the antlers and just enough skull for fastening that set of antlers for a display, the rest of the deer's skull was sheered off as neatly as if it had been done by a surgeon.  Teeth and facial bones gone.  

Oh, those puppy years!  

Stacked some pallets for Ben to have a lookout post and he used it briefly, seemed to like it, but hasn't used it since.  I may move it to one of his usual spots in the yard and see if he utilizes it more.


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## Beekissed

Just watching the dogs out my window at their morning play.  Fascinating to watch!  Mom and I were noticing just how fit and well muscled Jake is looking now that he has a companion with which to play and wrestle.  He was losing that fit look these last few years and now it's back, with a high gloss in the coat and muscles rippling.  Getting this working partner has turned back the clock for Jake, just as getting Jake turned back the clock for my old Lucy when he was a pup. 

Ben benefits from the partnership also...his muscles ripple as well, his speed is improving and he's growing more athletic by the day.  I think it really helps to have another dog with which to practice fight strategies, for proper social/pack skills, for exercise. 

Both dogs' coats just glisten in the sun...I don't know that I've ever seen a white dog shine in the sun unless they had very short hair, but Ben's guard hairs are shiny, so they reflect the sun.  This new food I am feeding seems to have been a great switch also...combine that with the good exercise, the good companionship and just outdoor living and these dogs are the picture of good health and vigor.  Jake hasn't looked this good since he had Lucy as his packmate.  Ben is such a blessing in so many ways!

Side note:  Ben is no longer breaking up the chicken matings, even when done within feet of him.  He notices, but does not act any longer.  Only took one correction on that.  I'm loving this good, smart dog.


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## Beekissed

Lately I've noticed that Ben no longer grows impatient when I spend a long time in the coop, no more yipping at me impatiently, etc.  Now he will lie down and watch the door, waiting calmly and steadily until I emerge.   He's also using this tactic for when I'm getting ready to walk up to do the feeding, whereas before he would dance around and sometimes would yip impatiently at me if I paused and waited to approach their boundary, now he'll lie down and wait.  

He's so intuitive in many ways, as he has worked out this all on his own~what I like best in his learned behavior~lying down and waiting calmly~ and so now he repeats that "best" by applying it to other areas of his life.  I didn't teach him that part and neither did Jake, that's all Ben.  I make a big deal of it each time I notice it because he's so eager to please.  

He's grown big enough now that I think he can no longer fit through the back pop door on the coop, so I'm thinking of removing the hot wire on the front pop door and shutting it, as per normal this time of year.  

He's got two bedding areas available and, depending upon the weather, he switches back and forth between them~his dog house and his open dog lounge.  Smart dog.  

Going to drop to single digits the next couple of nights, may dip into the negatives, so I'm thawing out deer scraps tonight to go along with regular food tomorrow and the next day.   He's been enjoying the stored and fermented pumpkins along with the chickens lately and every scrap gets licked off the ground, and has been using rotten oranges from the scrap pile as dog toys.  I keep finding them all over the yard and even one in his bedroom.  Silly pup. 

All in all, I'd say Ben is still doing most excellent in his training, having reached his 7 mo. birthday today.  He knows scads of commands and learned behaviors, is trustworthy around the chickens at all times, responds like a dream to training, is humble, but confident, and sweet and smart as a tack.    He's quiet, which I love very much...I've only heard him bark a handful of times since he's been here, other than the little yips he used to speak to me.  He's responsive to my body language and voice, and is sweetly affectionate to us all.   He's quite the blessing to this homestead.


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## Beekissed

Ben's 7 mo. progress pics....haven't officially weighed him anywhere but he weighs approx. the same as Jake and Jake runs around 60lb.  He's bigger, taller than Jake but much more lanky, less compact muscle.


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## frustratedearthmother

He's gorgeous!


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## Southern by choice




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## Beekissed

Worked outside all day today and Ben helped.  He helped eat an old mushy pumpkin, helped me do all sorts of chores, and got a lot of petting.  He got a correction for something today and responded quickly and correctly...I'm amazed at how responsive he is for his age.  

I was able to remove the hot wire off the coop pop door now that Ben is too big to fit through the back pop door.  That's a great thing! 

Last week he managed to get the lid of the new dog food tote open and ate a huge amount of dog food before I noticed what he had been doing.  That tote is now behind closed doors until I transfer the food into a tote with locking handles.  He's quite the fast learner.  

Last week I had pulled the car up to the shed to unload dog food and invited him to "load up" in the back of the car.  He did so quickly and easily and stood still, getting much praise and pets, until I said he could get down.  Acted like he'd been doing that all his life, so the training in the car~done once, mind you~was effective and he remembered it.   The next time I pull the truck up there, I'll see if he remembers his truck training just as well.  

Got a pic of Ben today....


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## Ferguson K

He's starting to look less like a puppy,  more like a teenager.


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## Beekissed

He sure is.  He's also less distracted by things, more focused.  I am still amazed at how little correction it takes to get this dog to stop doing something.  Just like that thing where he was nudging the rooster off the hens when he was mating them....one time I told him, "Hey!  No."   Didn't even say it in a firm or stern tone at all, but he got it.  Since then the rooster will mate right next to us and Ben won't even turn his head to notice it any longer...acts like it's not happening. 

He "gets" things pretty quickly and he gets them completely, if you know what I mean.  Usually doesn't take more than one reminder or correction for him to know what I'm wanting and to not repeat it again.  I love that about him.

I'm really loving having this dog around.  As he gains confidence and gets to know me more and as I get to know him more, we are forming a good working bond and an easy companionship.  I have no doubt he'll wind up like the rest of the dogs I've had that go down in family history, with good stories of fond admiration and respect for their lives and character.  A good dog writes his own story and it's always a good read.


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## babsbag

He sure is a handsome young man.


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## Beekissed

Ben helped me train Mom and my grandbaby, Aliza, in walking a dog and he did wonderfully.  He shortened his steps and went slower for them, was calm and considerate through it all.  I was proud of them all!  











Aliza showed him how to drink from the puddle...and she actually drank from the puddle before I knew what she was trying to do.  






And Ben obliged her by following her example....






And got a kiss for his good work....






First puddle stomp of spring, a drink of muddy puddle water and a kiss on the butt...don't know which one was happier about all that.


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## Southern by choice

Absolutely SWEEEEEET! 

Yeah these guys sure are special. Truly cannot imagine my life without them. I am so blessed. I know you are too!


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## frustratedearthmother

That's awesome!  You've definitely got to keep those pictures for your sweet, precious Aliza. She needs to be able to show them to HER kids someday!


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## Beekissed

Yesterday was Ben's first out of boundary, off leash socialization with the WHOLE family....we went for a long walk(longest he's ever had off property), had a fire and cook out, had several  conversation pits where the dogs were intermingling, etc.  Also his very first experience with a small ball...a bouncy ball, at that. 

In all things he did amazingly well!!  He got corrections for wanting to run ahead and travel over the ridge to the neighbor's dogs and he responded well to a come back command and continued to do that well when I kept practicing with him on the "come back". 

He responded well to "leave it", though he's only had that command a handful of times and this time the attraction was a bouncy ball...he was VERY attracted to that and wanted to fetch it each time it fell to the ground.  We then bounced the ball beside him on the walk, all the way down the road and he  completely ignored it.  Now, if someone throws it, he still wants to chase it and I think that's natural in a young dog...still haven't decided if I want to develop the "fetch" instinct or discourage it. 

He interacted with Aliza all day very well and she is losing her fear of being around his bigness and his invasion of her personal space.  I did some training with him in the beginning, as he wants to get between me and little Aliza...for this I just kept brushing him to one side until he stayed out of that space.  He seemed to remember that throughout the day and responded quickly when I needed him to "move" out of that area later on. 

For that, he got several, several kisses and "good boy" from little Aliza...Jake got plenty of dog butt kisses too.    Both dogs got lots of loving and socialization yesterday, which they loved.

Ben got a verbal correction of "lie down" when begging around the cook out and he responded by lying down and waiting...one correction and that was from my brother.  I was very impressed, as the smells were driving him wild...me too, for that matter.  

Ben saw me working on the closures to the outside access doors on the nest boxes the other day...a few days later I find one of them open and the hinges sprung as if something heavy had been leaning on the door.  Guess what?  Ben has learned there are nifty little, easy to open doors that allow him access to a box of eggs.    He couldn't reach the eggs from that box~it's a long reach~ but not from lack of trying.  It's only a matter of time until he's successful in his nest raiding technique, so I'm installing latches on the doors.  This dog is a REAL quick learner and has thinking capabilities much like my first dog, who we nick named Ol' Yeller, for his intuitive intelligence. 

All in all it was a really, really great day with the dogs and for the dogs and everyone enjoyed their presence.  I really got to see the outcome of much of my training by observing Ben's social skills around other people and I'm pretty impressed with this young dog's repertoire of manners that he was able to display.  No jumping up, no pawing, quick reaction to corrections, calm and obedient behavior on the walk~usually stayed right by my leg as if he were on a leash...actually was touching my leg for a lot of the walk~ and with socializing...just a good, good dog all day long. 

Ben was enjoyed by all.  A measure of his success was that Aliza kept wanting to go see the dogs all evening long, clear up until dark, after they had been restored to their boundary.  She's getting  more and more confident and easy around them as Ben becomes more calm and deferential to her space.  He's going to make her a great dog and the one she'll remember with fondness in her life, I'm thinking.


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## Beekissed

I was thinking about something else Ben did Sunday that impressed me.  When he was just 2 mo. old he was able to come down to the front porch, which has a long ramp up to it.  At the time I was training him to not come up on the porch but to stay down in the yard(Mom doesn't like dogs on her porch).  That only happened a couple of times, just a casual session for a little pup...a few verbal cues and redirecting him back down the ramp.  

On Sunday he followed me to the front porch, came up the ramp half way and wouldn't come any further.  I even called a little to him to see if he would advance but he wouldn't.  Stopped and waited there for me to come out of the house again.  Good memory on that dog.  Smart dog.  

I've noticed that Ben is going to be one of those velcro dogs...wherever I walked that day, he followed.  If I sat, he laid down by me. If I got up and moved, he got up and followed.  When I walked, he stayed right by my leg most of the time.   I noticed that even when he was a small pup...his nose will often bump the back of my leg, he's that close at times.   My GP/Lab mix was like that and my Lab before her, but not Jake.  He'll stick with me awhile but will eventually go off and do his own thing.  

I don't mind that Ben is a velcro dog...it's kind of nice.  Time will tell how tight that bond is.


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## Beekissed

Was watching the dogs out the window, as I often do, and saw them take off running to the woods.  Ran alongside their boundary a ways and then finished off in the upper corner, standing at alert.  No sound, no barking past an initial "woof" at the beginning from Jake...sort of a "let's go check it out" bark.  

I take it, by their response, that we've just had a few deer skirting the meadow.  If it had been predator, they would have barked more and stayed on that line longer.  Jake usually doesn't even bother to move when deer pass by...I've seen them walk behind at 10 yds and he will turn his head to look at them and lie back down, letting them feed at the peach trees right in the middle of his boundary. 

I think he was "training" Ben to pay attention, check things out, no warning barks needed, watch them as they leave the area and then business as usual.  I find that all so fascinating, as this is not Jake's usual reaction to deer....he seemed to be doing all that solely for Ben's benefit.  And Ben, apt pupil that he is, responded appropriately...followed Jake's every move, didn't linger or show further interest in the deer when Jake left the boundary and resumed watch position.  I love it that he is such a mimic and that I have a calm, sensible dog showing him the ropes...no excess barking, no excess excitement over an animal that is no threat to anything on the land, no excess energy exerted.  

I thank God for Jake and I also thank God for Ben's intelligence and his willingness to learn.  Such a blessing here to have a young dog that possesses, and is also learning, good common sense.  Takes away all the worry and stress of having a puppy in training out there without human supervision.


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## Beekissed

Was blessed enough to come upon a fresh roadkill deer, very small yearling, and brought it home to the dogs.  I had never done anything like that before but have been tossing it around in my mind a bit and wondering if I can supplement their diet with fresh meat now and again in this manner.  Only fresh, younger/smaller deer would work, as it's more tender and can be consumed before it starts to get too gamey and ripe to tolerate on the land. 

I was very pleased to see them dig right in, with Ben's powerful jaws working on the carcass and Jake eating the softer, easier to chew organ meats.  What pleased me the most was to see Ben take periods of eating and periods of sitting back and letting the chickens share in the bounty.   Jake didn't like the chickens getting around his "kill" but Ben ate side by side with them, showing no food aggression whatsoever and seemed comfortable letting them take over the carcass when he was tired of eating.  

After that was a whole lot of pacing the land by both dogs as they searched for places to cache pieces of meat, so both dogs got some great exercise and some fresh meat today...both things good for their health. 

I'll watch this process and see how it all goes to determine if I'll continue this practice, but for now I'm mighty pleased with how it all turned out.  This spring we'll see many fawns hit on the road and those will be the perfect size for warm weather fresh meat consumption~small and tender enough to eat quickly and completely in less than a day or so. 

I am very proud of Ben being so calm about sharing this food when it makes him so excited to have fresh, bloody meat.  Very unusual for a young, powerful dog to be so laid back about something that primal.


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## Baymule

Bee, I am so happy for you that Ben is turning out to be such an awesome dog. He is growing into his role in the homestead. He is a handsome boy too!


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## Beekissed

Thank you....I'm really loving this dog.  He's a sweety and so eager to please.

I hear you are getting Trip into shape with your sheeples!    Soon you'll never have a worry about them out there in the fields.  Wish Ben had some sheeples to love on.  When you were describing him licking your ewe in heat, that brought back memories of Jake doing the same thing.  I just let it happen...it was a bonding moment.  

Both dogs are full as ticks this  morning....Ben looks like he might have consumed too much, he's up there trying to sleep it off.


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## Beekissed

The fresh deer meat brought out the primal side of both dogs today and they had words over some buttermilk I gave them.    Ben dove in when Jake had the pan, Jake reacted like some kind of wolf!  Ben returned the snarling teeth showing act, yipped in protest,but backed off.  I took over the pan from them both, Jake got a reprimand and Ben had to lie down a bit.  Then each got a supervised turn with the pan with me moving in over it while they were drinking to see if that brought out any food aggression...it didn't.  

Jake has been acting pretty ugly over this meat, trying to keep the chickens off it, trying to keep Ben off it, but sometimes acting like he doesn't care.  So, today Jake got a reprimand for his ugly behavior and he settled right down.  Chickens are allowed to eat on the meat when he is not currently eating, without being chased off by a possessive old dog.    Fortunately, all it takes is a sharp word to Jake for him to straighten up.  

Ben is also learning and responding to one or two word cues.  Today I had a bucket with a bottle of soap in it and, being the puppy he is, he casually strolled over, delicately removed the bottle of soap and was carrying it off for a good chewing.  All I had to say was, "Hey!" and he dropped it and walked away, lying down at a distance.  Earlier he took Mom's screwdriver and was chewing it, but gave it up willingly and left it alone after told to "leave it".

He's such a good dog!  I was able to trim his nails as he ate the other morning, without too much pulling away of the paws.  He's so very calm and getting more so as he ages.  He will turn 8 mo. old this week and it seems hard to believe he has been here 6 mo.  He's learned so very much in his time here and he's quite the gentleman.


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## goatgurl

I just love to read about your good boy.  I think ben and not leo are my two favorite online dogs.  i'd let either one of them come live at my house.


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## Beekissed

Awww, what a kind thing to say!!!   I would say the same about your dogs...you are so blessed to get that many good dogs on one farm!  I love the stories about Not Leo too!    I love his name.  

The only thing left of that deer is the head and the two forelegs, but those were getting consumed this evening, so soon that deer will be gone.  I'm a little shocked at how quickly those two dogs consumed that deer.   

Hope I don't pass out in their boundary...between those two and the chickens they wouldn't find a trace of me after a week's time.


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## Beekissed

The deer is all gone except a little piece of hide they keep carrying around and burying.  Brought them home a bunny today, halved it and gave them each a half.  That was gone in a matter of a few minutes.  

Ben has been so ornery today.  Little Aliza had all her "babies" in her little stroller, playing beside my construction zone, and every time she would walk away from the stroller Ben would sneak over and try to snag a bear or a baby and even her little frog.  The funniest part is how he would lift these items with just his small incisors/front teeth, very delicately and just by a little piece of yarn or fur.  Oh, so quietly he would pad up, gently and delicately he would grasp these babies and try to ease away without us noticing.  

I had to get on to him several times but I didn't have the heart to say it firmly..it was just too sweet.    I'm going to have to get him a dog toy of his own...I've never seen him so attracted to something like he was to those baby dolls and teddy bears.  When I would tell him to drop it, he would always do so quickly and gently but he really wanted himself a toy today.  Big ol' goof!   

He turns 8 mo. old tomorrow...guess I'm going to have to shop for a good dog toy that he can't tear up so he can carry a toy around all he wants.


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## Baymule

Bee, I made dog toys from old blue jean legs for our DD's miniature wiener dog. They lasted him for years! Maybe you could take a blue jean leg, sew the ends (ravels) and tie knots in it. I bet Ben would like that!


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## Beekissed

That's an excellent idea and right down my alley!!!  Thank you!!!  I hate spending money on toys for dogs...they are all so very expensive.  My boys are always splitting the crotch out of their jeans, so I have an endless supply of jeans if I need them.  

I'll make him a jean "teddy" to carry around...  

He has spent the day "helping" me do some construction on my breeding pen...carried off my yard stick, my 2x4, my screwdriver, a package of hardware, etc.  I'd hear him getting into my tool tote and I'd say, "HEY!" and turn around to see him sheepishly dropping whatever item he was trying to steal.  

He has a huge pork bone to chew on, several strips of tough plastic/rubber landscaping stuff, a deer hide and various and sundry pieces of wood all over the yard, but he just has to come snooping in my stuff and carting it away.


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## Baymule

Your stuff is better. Trip did that to me too, even pulling up onion sets because they had my smell on them.


----------



## goatgurl

to funny!  Katie never did that but J.J. is the worst at quietly picking things up and walking off with them.  and i'm like bee, its to cute to yell at.  I do the aannnttt thing and she drops it but then I have to stop what i'm doing and go get it.  and she has all kinds of toys in the house but does all her sneak thieving outside.  gotta love 'em, they're the babies.


----------



## Beekissed

Another day of Ben stealing my stuff...he's quite the character.  I've never had a dog that does that before, so this is all new to me.  He's so slick that most of the time I didn't even see him nab my stuff, even though I'm working right next to the tool box and such.  Countless items were lifted, some were chewed to bits...I'm thinking that dog has a few tiny bolts in his gut right now.  

Everything I touch, he thinks he has to touch...that whole mimic thing that Anatolians do, maybe?    And he was a velcro dog all day, had to be right up on me, head in the way, body in the way...couldn't get anything done, so finally had to shove him away and tell him to go lay down.  That worked for a little while. 

I sat down on a hay bale to rest and he jumps up behind me and starts nibbling at my shirt, licking my shoulder, etc.  Big ol' baby wanting attention all the time.  

He turned 8 mo. old today....couldn't get a proper pic as he was surgically sown to my hip all day.  







Does this look like the face of a tool thief to you?






I fixed him up a few hay bales with an old sleeping bag strapped to them for his lounging needs, but he only wants to lie there if I'm already sitting there.  






My big ol' baby dog is growing up, but you sure can't tell it...he's moochier now than he was when he was a little pup.    I thank God for him~ he's not a boring dog, he's quirky, interesting, intelligent and sweet and that's all a huge blessing.  I can rest well at night knowing he's on the job with Jake, helping him so that he can rest in his old age.

Happy 8 mo. old, Ben...may you dream of yummy wooden handled screwdrivers and work gloves tonight as you sleep.


----------



## Beekissed

This evening we took Ben and Jake on a leashed walk down the driveway/road to the neighbor's house.  They have many dogs, most of them tied or kenneled, but it's a total and mass chaos of barking, moving dogs there.  Ben's never seen any other dogs but Jake and my brother's house dog that visits every now and again, but she doesn't really socialize with my dogs at all.  

Jake did poorly on the leash~it's been so long since he's had to walk on one, so he doesn't particularly care for it..but he certainly needs a refresher, so this was good for him.  

Ben did VERY well, even when getting excited upon nearing that residence with so many dogs.  He contained himself well, didn't pull on the leash after the first correction and was very polite, very socially normal when greeting the other dogs.   The people we visited couldn't believe how calm and well behaved he was for a dog so young, but he did better than Jake throughout the whole visit.  Jake had been there before a couple of times and he does far better off leash than on, so he was not liking this restraint during the visit.  

Mom did very well leading Ben on the leash, even when Ben wanted to be in the follower position with me, after a couple of corrections by her he did very well.  

On the way home we took off the leash and Jake ranged out ahead as is his norm, while Ben walked carefully and quietly next to my leg.  I told him he could go ahead and he did for a little jaunt but he came right back and paced next to me, sometimes even touching my leg as we walked.  He's a dream, that Ben.  

We all came back and sat in the glider to watch the sunset and both dogs got up in the glider with us...it was so sweet.  It was a really great evening!  

For Ben's first walk that far from home and seeing other dogs for the first time, I was amazed at how well he did.  Not a bit like a puppy, but more like a mature and well socialized dog.  There was a female in heat there with a stud dog in the kennel with her and he greeted both dogs with a calm and friendly demeanor through the fence.  The male dog started barking aggressively a few times and Ben answered once and moved in front of me, as if he was guarding me from that aggressive behavior, but he soon realized that dog couldn't advance towards me and, since I was not anxious over the dog, Ben grew calm and even lay down in the face of all of that.  

All in all it was an educational evening for us all and I could tell Ben really liked this pack walk we took.  When next we go out that road we will not be detouring to the neighbor's place but we'll be walking past all that sound of dogs barking, though they won't be visible from our road.  We'll have both dogs off leash for that next walk, as I want to test Ben on his recall and ability to focus on us instead of all that noise and those smells. 

I thought Jake was a very obedient and calm dog~and he is~ but Ben's got him beat hands down and twice on Sunday here lately, especially when on leash.  I think the student is going to excel past the teacher when it's all said and done.


----------



## Baymule

Ben is an awesome dog!


----------



## Beekissed

I sure think so!  I was just thanking God for him and Jake last night, for it's such a blessing to have good dogs on the land to watch over the chickens and over us as well.  God sent me a very good help mate for Jake and I'm so grateful for it...he's been easy to train, easy to handle and easy to love.  Such a humble and sweet animal to be blessed with and I'm very grateful for his temperament and intelligence.  In my old age I don't need a dog that's a lot of trouble and stress.  

When he got up in the glider yesterday evening, he tried to climb in my lap...I think he's turning out to be quite the moochy, big ol' baby.


----------



## Latestarter

Beekissed said:


> When he got up in the glider yesterday evening, he tried to climb in my lap...



Wait till he's full grown and does that! It's still wonderful to have them that close for some loving


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## Beekissed

It is!!!  Though, today, I could use a little less moochiness....Ben has his big ol' head shoved in all my work today and I have to keep shoving him out of the way.  Nosy as all get out and just wanting my attention all the time...eventually he'll go lie down but right now he's wanting my attention.  One part of me is pleased and I just want to squeeze him every time, but another part doesn't want to encourage this much velcro behavior.


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## Beekissed

Ben has learned to leave my tools alone!  I've had the very same tool box out all day and he hasn't touched a single thing in it.  Maybe that little tap with the yard stick when I was teasing him made a huge impression?  If that's all it takes to get something in his head, I should have used that a long time ago!  

I kid you not, I barely even brushed his back with that yard stick....this is one very sensitive dog.   I'd hate to see what would happen to such a dog if someone were to hit him for real...probably break his spirit in a million pieces. 

He finally got his nose out of my work space after I had loved on him for the hundredth time...I guess that was just enough to get him through for a little while.   

I'm very glad that I can now turn my back on my tools without a big galump stealing them and chewing them down to a nub.  Hope that lasts....


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## Baymule

Haha, a yardstick! When I fuss at Trip, he squints his eyes and grins. How can I stay mad at that?


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## Beekissed

I know!  Such gentle dogs, these breeds.  Very sensitive.  Old Lucy was barking too much one night and didn't hush when told to, so I went out to scold her..even hit her on the nose with a tiny yarn glove as I was talking.   I had never done that before and that soft, little glove was enough to lay her down, squinting her eyes and acting like I had beat her.  After that, when I got up to walk to the back door to holler at her to hush, all it took was my footsteps moving to that end of the house to make her stop excessive barking.  Didn't even have to holler.   She was a great dog!  

 From the window next to my desk I get to watch everything happening in the backyard and especially what the dogs are doing....and every morning and evening I get to see them playing, wrestling, etc. Jake is as fit as he was as a youngster right now due to this tussling with this new dog and I'm so glad to see it. Gone is that faint fat pad on his back and muscle definition has returned to his thighs. 

This is what young Jake did for old Lucy and now it's Jake's turn. What a wonderful thing, this circle of life! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I LOVE watching them play!

At first, Jake ruled and was much, much faster than the awkward, galloping pup...sort of like watching an Arabian playing with a Belgian and you could see how much Jake was enjoying this fact, but now the "Belgian" is getting faster, more agile and strong...so STRONG. Jake is out matched now and finally he has to end the game...you can see him getting tired long before this pup now. Ben is considerate, though, more so than Jake ever was to Lucy, and he stops when Jake is ready to stop. He even lets Jake take the haybale "bed" when they rest. 

It's a great team. May Jake live a long and active life next to this growing giant of a pup!


----------



## Beekissed

Let me tell you how smart Ben has gotten....

Today he was standing over something, tearing at it, but I couldn't see what he had.  I picked up the binoculars and stepped up to the window to get a look.... and almost immediately he turned and looked right at me.  He stood there for a minute as I watched him, watching me....then he just casually walked away from whatever he had been tearing up, as if to say, "Nothing to see here, I was just on my way to somewhere else."  

He never went back to it.  Later I went to gather eggs and found the "something"~ a piece of plastic jug he had found somewhere, something I would not have let him have.  Smarty Pants saw me from that far away and knew he wasn't supposed to be chewing on that...didn't even take a correction from me, he just walked away from it and didn't go back to it. 

I'm loving this smart dog, intuitive.


----------



## Baymule

Bee, you are blessed to have two such wonderful dogs. Ben is the answer to your prayers.


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## Beekissed

Ben's so smart he convinced the chickens to bring the eggs to him, now that he can't get into the coop any longer.  A hen has been laying eggs in Ben's dog house that he never uses now that it's warm....but, apparently, he does visit it daily for his egg.  

I closed down both dog houses yesterday.


----------



## frustratedearthmother




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## Mike CHS

_It took us 12 hours to make the 8 hour drive from South Carolina today and I needed a good laugh.  _


----------



## Latestarter

wow, what added 50% driving time to the trip? Nothing serious I hope.  Was that the final trip you needed to make?


----------



## Mike CHS

This is the last of our household things so just the car and clothes for the next couple.  Evidently there was more holiday traffic for Easter (or something).  It took us almost 2 hours to get through Atlanta and Chattanooga was even worse.  It was a crawl upon entering both places and stayed that way until well outside.


----------



## Baymule

Mike, it's almost here. That final, last trip. It's a darn good feeling. Everyday my DH and I count our blessings, we admire the sunset, the sun rise, the moon, the gorgeous greens of the trees and grass. Even in the winter with leaves stripped off the trees, leaving their bare gnarled branches exposed against the sky, we are in awe of the beauty and grandeur that the Lord has made. You're almost there.


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## Beekissed

Ben took the longest walk today that he's ever done off the property and he did it off leash...getting him prepared for his other job of walking Mom out to the mailbox and keeping her safe there and back.  

One aspect of the job is not to range too far ahead or into the woods on the walk that he loses sight of Mom...he must stay near and when she stops, he stops, when she walks, he must walk.  She stops to pick up limbs out of the road and such, so the dog must be patient and wait for her to get done and continue on.  

Another aspect is to come back when called~immediately...when the neighbor's dogs are barking and it's tempting to go down to their house for a visit, or if a car comes and we want the dogs close to us when the car passes by, etc. 

Another part of the job is to sit and stay at the last bend of the road, as they cannot go up next to the main highway...too quickly they can get out on the road and people just fly down that straight stretch of road.  They must sit and stay, watching Mom walk that last part and then return to them in the bend before they can turn towards home.  

Again, Ben acted like a much older dog, heeled for most of the walk, ranged ahead when told he could do so but returned with the slightest recall from us.  He heels so close that he's touching my leg most of the time...and his behavior prompted Jake to heel as well, which was comical.  

Ben did excellently the whole way there and back.  One time as we were sitting and watching Mom walk the final leg to the mailbox, Ben started to go to her but one word, "Hey!" from me and he wheeled immediately, returned to my side and sat down.  Both sat there until Mom came back to the bend and I told her to release them from their stance by saying, "Okay!"....immediate response!   Both bounded up to her and settled into the road pace home.  

I was and am continually impressed by this young dog's swiftness in picking up on our direction, even anticipating what we want...he acts much more mature than his age.  He'll be 9 mo. old this week and no signs of suddenly chasing chickens or any other unforeseen bad behavior.  

This dog doesn't take any repetition to pick up on something and that's just a huge blessing to me...a perfect dog to have in your old age when one often grows impatient with the follies of youth.  He's intelligent, gentle, affectionate and confident...couldn't have asked for a better addition to the homestead.  He impresses everyone who meets him. 

He's still quiet, only barking at night and only occasionally, which tells me he's only barking at the more serious threats walking by this meadow.  He doesn't bark at strangers when we are out there to greet them, just watches on alert.  

It will be interesting to see how he acts when young chicks arrive this spring and also when we get a few kittens.  How he acts with the very little animals will tell a lot about his nature, but I suspect he'll be just as gentle with them as he's been with Aliza.  

Long story and too late to make it short, but Ben's education continues and he's still earning top marks from me.  Mom's real tickled with him too and is relieved to find she can manage him quite easily, even though he's so big and strong.  Just a great dog!


----------



## Beekissed

Watching the dogs play this morning, as per usual, and it brings a smile to my face...thanking God once again that Jake now has a companion, for good social life, for play and for exercise.  When he was a pup, he used to play ol' Lucy, my GP mix female, into the ground...pulling her by the leg across the yard to make her continue the play.  Eventually she'd end it by going into the dog barn and lying down, maybe give a snarl and lunge if he persisted. 

Well, Jake has come up with his own end to the game if he wears out before Ben....which doesn't seem to happen often, even though he's 10 yrs old.  The other morning I could hear Ben barking insistently over and over, short yips~not a bit usual, as these dogs are mostly very quiet and an insistent, rhythmic bark is sign of trouble.  I got out of bed and went to the window to investigate, to see Jake lying out flat and still as the grave, while Ben barked at his face and then would look at the house, bark and give a look.  

Well...I'm thinking, "Jonny's in the well!!!" ala Lassie and I watch carefully to see if Jake is breathing or will move, twitch, _something_!  Ben continues to give this bark and look, seeming to get more agitated as this goes along.  My heart starts to race and sorrow, thinking Ben has given the old coot a heart attack while they were playing.  I watch for a few minutes longer and then get my boots on to go.  

As I finally get the back door open to investigate, the sound of the door revived my "dead" dog as quickly as a wink....

He was just done playing and had utilized the possum's defense, the old rascal!  Then I had to worry about my OWN heart, it was beating so hard.  

This morning, the old dog wore out the younger, I do believe...sometimes it's the other way around.     Both are wiry, fit, springy for action and doing well as working partners here.   

I need to work with Ben about calming down when first greeting company, but I've been busy this spring....sometimes I forget he's still a pup and still needs direction and a decisive,firm correction about getting into people's faces for affection.  He's such a hog for that....mostly I have to instruct the humans on not rewarding this efforts and withholding their affection until he calms down, so as not to reward the wrong behavior.  Us humans are really, really bad about that!!!  

Both dogs are doing great at keeping the wildlife off my wood's broodies at night, though they are a small distance from the dog's boundary.  Now I've baited a beehive, trying to lure in a wild swarm this spring, and that hive is just over the edge of their boundary as well....hoping the local black bears will keep their distance from that hive due to the presence of my vigilant pair.  

Got them some huge pork bones for gnawing...Ben really needed that occupation, as his job here is rather small and he does get bored enough to drag things out into the yard to chew on.  Wish he had sheep to guard but this is the job...he's doing great so far.  

Everyone loves this dog and are impressed with his intelligence, his very evident joyfulness and his quiet, calm demeanor in a dog so young~except, of course, when first greeting people and wanting affection.


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## Baymule

Raising a young dog to be a productive member of the farm family is quite a journey, both for you and the dog. Ben is taking his rightful place in his farm family.


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## Beekissed

I've been gimping around lately from one foot or knee malady or other and he seems very concerned, walks closely to my leg, leans in and slows down like he wants to give me balance.   I think this one could possibly be trained as a therapy/assistance dog if someone wanted to take the time...he's very intuitive. 

New chicks are hatching right now and it should be very interesting to see how he reacts to them.  Got new kittens a few weeks back and he was very interested in putting them in his mouth...until the little kits spat, hissed and tried to attack his nose.  Funniest thing you ever saw, seeing that big dog jump back in surprise!


----------



## Baymule

Sorry that your "hurts" are making you limp. I take turmeric for my knee pain. Turmeric is for inflammation and it sure does the trick. I can tell when I miss taking it.


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## babsbag

I love reading about Ben, gives me hope for Mia...

The kittens made me laugh as my Border Collies are always afraid of my cats. Even when I had cats that were declawed the dogs would never cross them. If I call one of the dogs and they don't come it usually means that there is a cat between me and them. Funniest thing ever to watch. I guess it is true what they say. "Dogs drool...cats rule" 

Glad that Ben learned that they are not to be messed with.


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## Beekissed

Ben has met his first chicks....seemed curious but left them alone after a single verbal correction.   Now he's ignoring the new family as they range nearby...that's pretty impressive when you think how erratic they move and how enticing they sound.  

He's been feeling his oats a little more lately so I worked with him on leash a bit and will do more of the same, until he can settle down and listen to certain commands more completely.   Just the single session made a big difference in his behavior the following days, so a more frequent visit to those previous training points ought to reset his mind a good bit.  

He's just not been getting enough attention from me of late, due to a week away from home and the busy spring schedule and he's just not a dog one can leave to his own devises for long without seeing some over excited behavior upon greeting people.  

He's also still not respecting Aliza's space like he should and will deliberately try to get between she and I, bumping her with his body~which causes her to fall down~and also getting in her face with his face, which scares her.  

I finally got tired of this and gave her a small stick and told her she could bop him on the nose if he got too close to her face...she did it once, just barely catching his nose, and he got the message and backed off.   She can't really remember to do this, so I took over the small stick and every time he got too close to her face, I gave him a light tap on the top of the head...only took a couple times of that before he finally got the message.  This is such a sensitive dog that even the lightest little touch of a small twig gets his attention....can't imagine if such a dog fell into the hands of someone who was abusive, as it would just kill his spirit or turn him mean.  That little tap makes him flinch and redirect his path right away.  

I want him to realize she is not just another dog, she is a part of me and must have her personal space and her status is higher than his on this homestead, even though she be tiny.  When I worked with him on leash I let her help me lead him, hoping that would help him get that concept.  Will continue to work on this issue as my busy schedule allows...I think it's going to become more important as he sexually matures.


----------



## Baymule

Our dogs adore out 8 year old grand daughter, but as our 1 year old grand daughter starts toddling around, I'll have to teach them to give her a little more space. Trip guards our grand daughter, even as a puppy. Parker, our Great Dane/Lab is protective of children. A neighbor lady started scolding her 3 year old here one day and Parker got between them and growled at her! We corrected him, but she was impressed that Parker wanted to protect her son-even against her.


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## Beekissed

Bay, I LOVE that picture!!!!  Such a feeling of ease and love in that.  Amazing how similar our dogs look in these two pics, too.  

Ben has shown protective instinct early on and I think that will develop more with time, but I'm going to give him clear instruction on just when and where that is appropriate.  So far he has been in only one situation wherein he thought we were being threatened and he responded appropriately to the threat and also to my cue.  I was very impressed with how he managed it and how quickly he assessed the situation.....impressive in such a young dog.


----------



## Baymule

Our dogs enrich our lives in so many ways.


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## Beekissed

Ben turns 11 mo. old this week and he is starting to show some sexual maturity...asserting himself more with Jake, which results in some pretty quick, vocal and physical exchanges.  Had one of those this morning right behind me, so I stepped in on that one.  Jake will soon be deposed as leader here and Ben will take the lead....which is what I was needing on the homestead.  

It's still sad to see, though Jake is not a natural leader he is still one tough dog that is maybe feeling his age and weakness next to this bigger, younger and more dominant male.  

Ben still needs more work when it comes to controlling his exuberance with new people and also his borderline possessiveness with me....he doesn't like it much if I don't pay attention to him, so barks and jumps around...seems like he's trying to boss me into doing what he wants.  Ain't gonna happen and I'll continue to work on that with him.  Some guarding behavior is nice if the need arises, but I'll not tolerate possessiveness at all...it's too dangerous, especially in a big, powerful breed.  

He has great recall, even when on a hot scent that clearly excites him...takes him a few moments longer than Jake to respond to "come back" but he is able to be diverted.  Will continue to work with him as time goes along but I can really see some independence and assertiveness showing up along with his scrotum size increase.  

May be time to price a neutering.  I'll put it off for as long as I can but I'm not going to let him injure Jake in the process.  That old dog is too valuable to me.


----------



## Baymule

Ben sounds like he is progressing well. The leader role gets reshuffled as he gets more mature. Glad that is isn't a point of contention between him and Jake. Ben is the perfect dog for you!


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## Beekissed

Made the dogs a resting/lounging bench today out of scavenged lumber and the headboard of a broken bedstead that had been my son's.  The headboard was tufted and cushioned slightly, so I figured it would make a soft place to lounge while still being not fluffy enough for Ben to chew up....I hope. 

Made it sturdy enough for several humans to sit down as well, as we often sit down up at the shed during chores to have a chat and visit the dogs.







Ben likes it!


----------



## BlessedWithGoats

Very nice!!


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## Beekissed

Got Ben's neutering scheduled for next week!!!    I'm sure he won't feel half as jubilant as I about it, but I feel it's definitely time.  Should settle him down a little and make life between him and Jake a good bit better.  He'll suddenly be able to think and hear much more clearly, I do believe.


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## Baymule

Ben sure looks comfortable. I think you have a winner there--the bench AND Ben!


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## Beekissed

Ben was neutered today and it went very well....all except the ride into town and back, which made him sick and made him also want to poop all over the back of my car.  Fortunately it was dry and crumbly, so easily brushed out but the smell lingers...will be doing some major scrubbing there.  

He was so very well behaved in the clinic, didn't pull at his leash and walked closer than close to my leg.  Was sitting quietly in the pen when I said my good-byes and didn't whimper or whine once...just looked a little anxious, which is to be expected from a dog that hasn't left the homestead since he arrived at 2 mo. of age.  They were impressed with how good he was...there was a GS dog there barking like mad and lunging at people walking by the pen, so that made calm and quiet Ben look like a saint.  

He is acting much as if nothing at all happened to him....if I didn't know it had been done, I'd never know by looking at how he acts and moves. Of course, he's still runnin' on that pain med they gave him that's time released.    I got him a huge basted pig bone for gnawing on and keeping him occupied....dog oughta have _something_ as a consolation prize.  

He weighs 83 lbs., which I imagine will be his average wt as an adult dog.  Now he'll be able to think with his head instead of his hormones, so life will be a tad better for him and maybe even for us.  Should also make life between him and Jake more harmonious as well.


----------



## Baymule

I am glad Ben behaved himself so well. Doesn't it make you proud of him?


----------



## Beekissed

Sure does.  It shows that it pays to take the time to do a little obedience training on these LGDs...helps to not have a huge dog dragging you around when it gets near strange dogs and people.  

I need to work with him more, though...probably won't have time until fall now....busy time of year here.  

He's doing well with the recovery....doesn't even show he's had anything done.  He's a great dog and now he has the potential to be even greater!


----------



## Baymule

Your Ben is a wonderful dog, an asset to your farm and a partner to Jake. You were blessed to have Ben come into your life!


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## Beekissed

Could be just my imagination as it should be too early for those hormones to be fully out of his system, but I do believe Ben is showing subtle signs of a change towards less defiance of the rules.  Just subtle but noticeable to me...he's quicker to comply with what is expected of him.  

There for a bit, as he started to feel his oats, I could see a stubbornness in him to obey orders or conform to daily rituals, more aggression around food and Jake, more excitement over greeting and feeding than normal,etc.  Now that he's been neutered it's like someone flipped a switch back to the former dog...the one that sees the sense in having peace with others, as it gets you more rewards. 

I'm very much liking the results and it was well worth the money spent to have a dog that's more calm and able to use common sense while interacting with other animals and humans.


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## Beekissed

Ben turned a year old yesterday...would have taken a pic of him but he's looking pretty raggedy right now as he's shedding his winter coat and lying around in great dust pits in the summer heat.  

He tore that wonderful dog bench I made him to utter shreds the other day....now I have to find a way to mend it.  It sure won't be cushioned any longer, that's for sure.  Dumb dog....still a puppy and chewing everything he can find.  

We are still pretty pleased with him for all of that and are glad he's here...everyone who visits falls in love with him and wants to take him home.  

He caught a squirrel the other day that came to rob the peach trees....ate it.  He also has eaten any peaches that dropped, stones and all.  

His neutering went off without a hitch and healed up just fine, with him licking it when he wanted to do so.  He's not bothered with fleas and ticks right now and seems to be staying cool in this humid hot weather just fine.  

He's been snacking on green tomatoes, strawberries and anything else I throw to him out of the garden.  He's going to love it when stuff really starts coming on.


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## Southern by choice

Happy Birthday! Ben!!!!




 

Haven't been on much lately... my surprise to see he has turned 1 already! Time flies!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Happy Birthday Ben!!


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## Baymule

Oh Bee, your baby is growing up! He is such a wonderful dog, even with all his puppy antics, and is a good boy.  As he matures, he can only get better.


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## Beekissed

Culled a 2 mo. old chick yesterday and was posting about that on my own forum and got this question.  I thought it was worthy of posting here and explaining one aspect of Ben's education on all things chicken.  



> _Um, if one does not want their chicken dogs chasing or killing chickens, why would you give him a chick to eat???_
> 
> 
> I GAVE it to him. That's different than him TAKING one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's the same as when I give them all the chicken scraps from my processing. I have not one iota of worry that this dog will then go and try to snatch his own chick or chicken merely because I handed him a dead one.
> 
> Folks seem to have this preconceived notion that if you feed dogs chicken they'll "get a taste for it"....got news for those folks, their dogs already have a taste for chicken. They are carnivorous. Same with putting dead chickens or scraps out in the woods, thinking it will "draw in predators" if you let them taste the chickens....got news for these city folks, those preds already KNOW your chickens are there and they already "have a taste for chicken".
> 
> Same with chickens and feeding them eggs....they already have a taste for eggs, have eaten eggs in their lifetime and will continue to eat eggs...but usually only eggs that have been compromised in some way in the nest or coop. I can throw an egg on the ground and they will run to the egg, but if it didn't bust open, they will all just move back to what they were doing. If it burst open, they will gladly partake.
> 
> Once you establish with the dog what he is allowed to do and not allowed to do, they usually follow that all their lives unless under some kind of duress. If they were starving, I'd say they'd kill some chickens for eating and rightly so. But, Jake's training is so deeply embedded that he would never have eaten that chick unless he WAS too hungry...he'd just carry it around for days, trying to put it back in the coop, sleeping with it, etc.  When he was a pup and was handed a chick, he'd carry it around for a bit but would eventually eat it.
> 
> Ben will likely get to that point when he reaches maturity...even at this age he was reluctant to do more than sniff at it until I tore it open with my hands and threw it in a place that he recognized as "safe for eating of things that were thrown away". If I had killed that chick in front of him and he had gotten overly excited, then snatched it away from me eagerly, I'd have taken it from him and went back to square one training. I wasn't a bit surprised that he didn't want to take it from my hand and was quite pleased by that....it means he knows the chicken is mine, he's allowed to sniff it but not put his mouth on it. When I put it where I always feed them meat scraps, he knew in an instant he was allowed to eat it. Smart dog.
> 
> In order to train a dog about things, one has to expose them to that situation and see how they react, give correction when needed, redirect, etc. If you never expose them to it, you never know what they will do in that situation.
> 
> That's what always mystifies me about someone wanting to train a chicken dog but they never let the dogs and chickens roam about in the same place together "because I can't ever trust him"....how in the world will they show the dog how he is to act in that situation if they never give him a chance? That's the first day's training here...put the dog with chickens, then correct him when you see him getting overly excited about the situation. When you've done that while you are there and he responds appropriately, then test him for how he acts when you are NOT there....go in the house and monitor through the window, give voice correction at the least sign of interest in following the birds, etc. Usually that first day's training on chickens is all that's required, especially in a pup. That's all it took for Jake and also for Ben.
> 
> But...can't ever do that training if you never take the chance and let them be in that situation that you will want them to be living, in harmony with the chickens. Same with feeding them chicken and even chicks, feed it and see how they react. Ben shows great promise, judging by his reaction to the dead chick yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's the long, long answer to your short question....sorry.


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## Southern by choice

Well put Beekissed!


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## Kusanar

Beekissed said:


> Culled a 2 mo. old chick yesterday and was posting about that on my own forum and got this question.  I thought it was worthy of posting here and explaining one aspect of Ben's education on all things chicken.


I feed my cats and dog raw chicken (store bought as I don't have birds), and they have pretty well learned not to snatch the food from me, in fact, the dog mostly won't even take his piece from me if I try to hand it to him, he just licks it and backs away, as soon as I drop it, he goes over and starts protecting it from the cats though (they will steal his food and all the snarling he can do won't stop them once they have gotten their mouths on it...) Your explanation makes sense


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## Baymule

And Ben is intelligent enough to know the difference between give and take.


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## Beekissed

And, finally...I get to see the fruits of my labors and my plan come to fruition today! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			

















The reason I got Ben was to help Jake, as Jake is getting old and having spells of rheumatoid arthritis, so not sure how long he'll be with us. The reason I chose his type of dog was so he would be more territorial towards stray dogs than Jake has been...Jake just wants to be friends with all dogs. 

Stray dogs are our most frequent large predator that actually comes to the coop and we've been able to shoot a few of them when they come but we'd rather not have to do that...if you do a running shot, there's always a chance you can merely wound one and my eyesight is not too good any longer. The plan was to get a breed that would keep us from having to shoot dogs. Today I got to see it work!!! 

A beagle came into the yard just now and laid down under the apple trees, watching the chickens from afar....Ben started barking at it. It advanced no further, just laid there...it seemed to realize the dogs couldn't reach it and I wondered if it would just bide its time until chickens wondered into its space. I didn't wait, I reinforced Ben's warning with a shout of my own, "GETONOUTTAHE-YAH!" and the dog took off. 

But...at least Ben wasn't friendly and I think he'd cross that boundary anyway if he thought the dog was a threat, he's blown through it before for lesser reasons. 

I'm so very pleased to see him getting territorial!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 GOOD DOG!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Ben, shown here eating a green peach he stole from the tree...stood right up on his hind legs and neatly picked himself a peach.  









Blood on his muzzle as he gets his share of the chicken butchering.  He has a new friend, a white kitten we got this summer, who also shared in the feast.  They are great buddies and Ben loves to chase him but doesn't mind sharing food with him.   

 

His little kitten buddy, Flash, getting his nose in things too.  



And Ben gets a carcass all his own...he loves his fresh meat.   

 

I'm really glad we got him and he's turning out to be a fine chicken/homestead dog.


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## TAH

What a good boy!!

He is very very handsome.


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## Baymule

We butchered roosters last week and our "house" dogs gobbled up the guts. The Pyrs really don't like them. They will politely take them, then walk off and drop them. Not so with the other two! It just makes sense not to waste anything, even if it's chicken guts.

Good boy Ben!!! Bee, your boy is growing up!


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## Beekissed

Bay, I can't believe your Pyrs didn't want chicken guts!!!    Ben eats most of them, though he leaves the actual intestines behind...lets the chickens peck at those.  

Maybe the Pyrs get a chance to eat natural foods more often than the house dogs, so it wasn't much of a novelty to them?


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## Baymule

Nope, they are both picky. My black Lab/Great Dane eats the intestines, anything and everything. His mouth is so big that my command for anything I toss to him is "Alligator." His jaws snap shut like an alligator, hence the command. It even works for pills. We saved the gizzards, livers and hearts for ourselves, fried some tonight.

I canned the bony chicken backs for the GP's. They like their food cooked, thank you very much.


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## Beekissed

I wasn't here to see it, but I think Ben had his first real tussle with a stray dog or dogs over these chickens.  I have two hens injured, two different piles of feathers and Ben has a laceration on his face....but no dead birds, so he's doing his job.  The bite marks on the one chicken are not far apart and didn't go deep, so these birds were caught on the run and the predator wasn't real effective.  

There's been a stray beagle hanging around that someone dropped off to fend for itself...the first time it came around Ben barked at it, but wasn't too aggressive in his warning.  It kept its distance and I yelled at it, so it ran.  I think it might have come back and made friendly with the dogs when we weren't home, but then got excited about the chickens...poor thing is probably starving by now.   

This is the first injured birds I've had in years upon years, so I'm hoping that next time they both are more aggressive towards the dog or dogs or whatever predator it was.  I'm also thankful that Ben stopped what was happening...Jake would never have done that unless it was a wild predator.  He's far too friendly to other dogs.  

I'm pretty proud of Ben right now and he's been very sweet to the injured chickens too....when I was examining them, he was snuffling the other end and watching everything I did.  He's been hanging around them and standing over them as they stand around looking shocky...I can tell he knows something is different there and he doesn't quite know how to act. 

Worth every penny spent on him!


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## Southern by choice




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## Baymule

Good job Ben! Bee, you definitely have a darn fine dog!


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## Kusanar

Beekissed said:


> *snip*
> There's been a stray beagle hanging around that someone dropped off to fend for itself...the first time it came around Ben barked at it, but wasn't too aggressive in his warning.  It kept its distance and I yelled at it, so it ran.  I think it might have come back and made friendly with the dogs when we weren't home, but then got excited about the chickens...poor thing is probably starving by now.
> *snip*


Great job Ben!! Any chance you could trap the beagle and take him to the pound? Even if he gets put down there, it's got to be better than starving to death... and who knows, maybe someone would want him for a pet, far from your chickens.


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## Beekissed

Kusanar said:


> Great job Ben!! Any chance you could trap the beagle and take him to the pound? Even if he gets put down there, it's got to be better than starving to death... and who knows, maybe someone would want him for a pet, far from your chickens.



I haven't seen him since I yelled at him the first day, though the neighbor has seen him a few times and Mom saw him out by the highway.  

If we caught him we'd likely just do the deed ourselves rather than drive 20 mi. so the shelter can pass him around over and over and then euthanize him.  Last time I called with a dog they kept saying, "If you bring him here we'll just have to put him down"...we can do that here, quicker and with less fuss.


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## Baymule

Bee, what you say makes perfect sense to me, but I am sure some people would be horrified at the "cruelty" of you doing the deed yourself. I do not condone cruelty to animals, but sometimes just taking care of the problem yourself turns out to be kinder in the long run.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Bee, what you say makes perfect sense to me, but I am sure some people would be horrified at the "cruelty" of you doing the deed yourself. I do not condone cruelty to animals, but sometimes just taking care of the problem yourself turns out to be kinder in the long run.



I'm sure there are folks who think that is cruel and it's likely due to the fact they've never killed anything themselves.  We've killed many, many animals so one becomes practiced in the art of the kill, wherein the dying is just as humane and quick as that done with medicine at the vets.  

A dog shot at close range in the head with a .16 gauge shotgun dies instantly, sinking to the ground like it just went to sleep...just like when the vet puts a dog to sleep in his clinic.  There's no blood or gore even...the pellets are so small and penetrate so quickly and deeply that you can't even see the dog has been shot unless you examine it closely.  One minute he's standing there, eating a piece of bread, the next second he's gone.  No pain, no mess, no spasms even.  

I had this discussion with a young lady at the humane society one day..the same one that threatened to "just put him down" if I brought a dog in to them.  I told her that's fine, we'll just shoot him here.   She started getting all upset over that and begged us not to do it.  I asked her, "Why?  You just told me YOU were going to kill him if I brought him to you, so why can't WE just kill him and save ourselves the trip?"  She said, "I don't want you to just shoot him in the head!!!!"   Obviously, this woman has seen far too many movies and TV shows wherein people are shot in the head and it's a violent and gory event.

I explained to her how quickly it goes, how bloodless it all is and how the dog doesn't suffer at all, but she started insisting I bring the dog to them, that she would find a place for him after all.    He was too good of a dog to shoot~though a confirmed chicken killer, so I went ahead and took him in...he was adopted the next day.  

Why is it that people think that putting a dog to sleep is any different and less cruel then putting it down with a shotgun?  Because there is less noise,maybe?  Never have figured that one out, but dead is dead and there are many definitions of cruelty in this world...I have my own opinions on what is cruel to an animal and they would not be popular with most of the world's population if I expressed them.


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## Baymule

And not to mention large animals like horses. If euthanized, you are stuck with 1,200 pounds of poison meat that must be buried so that other animals that would be drawn to the carcass are not poisoned by eating the carcass. If you don't have the equipment or facilities for a proper horse funeral, you must pay for it's disposal. A dead horse quickly becomes a high dollar liability for people who often cannot afford it. And then people wonder why old horses get dumped out on lonely stretches of road...... You can't shoot your own horse because it's "cruel".  Rant over.


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## NH homesteader

I'm going to jump in here and agree with this entirely. I have heard way too many stories of the vet having to do multiple injections because a horse didn't go down.  On the other hand a good old farmer with a gun does it right the first time. I am lucky to live where no one cares if they hear a random gunshot. My neighbor usually only shoots on two occasions: sighting in for deer season,  and when the coyotes get too close.  However they don't care a bit about what we do on our side of the property line. 

I hadn't thought about the issue of poisoned "meat"  and the need for keeping it away from scavengers. Good call there.


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## Kusanar

Very true. My vet actually was telling me about a mare that I can't remember what was wrong with her, but she was dying and in a lot of pain, she told the owner that she needed to be put down, that there was no saving her, and he said he was going to shoot her because he already had a lot of money in vet bills at that point and couldn't spend more on her being put down. So, my vet went to her truck and waited for a while after she heard the shot and went to check that she was actually dead and that he didn't need any help moving the body or anything. She said that he did a great job and that there was no blood.

I've had to put 2 horses down, but one was down and we couldn't get him up, and he was starting to have neurological symptoms before we put him down, and the other was over 30 years old and had cancer eating away at him. They both went out without a fight and the vet was even surprised on both of them how quick they were gone after the shots.

It doesn't really matter how they go, as long as it is fast and as painless as possible.


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## Beekissed

Kusanar said:


> It doesn't really matter how they go, as long as it is fast and as painless as possible.



I agree.   

Anyone owning animals needs to know how to quickly and painlessly put them down at home or at least have someone nearby~neighbor, family, etc~ who can do it for them.  A vet is not always available and why should an animal suffer for lack of fortitude and preparation in its owner?  

Is it easy?  Not a bit.  Not even close to it.  It can be downright heartbreaking.  

But we aren't promised an easy life, so best to just pull up the big girl britches and get on with the dirty work.


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## Kusanar

Beekissed said:


> I agree.
> 
> Anyone owning animals needs to know how to quickly and painlessly put them down at home or at least have someone nearby~neighbor, family, etc~ who can do it for them.  A vet is not always available and why should an animal suffer for lack of fortitude and preparation in its owner?
> 
> Is it easy?  Not a bit.  Not even close to it.  It can be downright heartbreaking.
> 
> But we aren't promised an easy life, so best to just pull up the big girl britches and get on with the dirty work.


If I couldn't get a vet to the barn, I know WHERE to shoot to put one of the horses down, and my dad has guns and knows how to use it. If a horse was in serious distress (broken leg etc) and we couldn't get in touch with the vet, he would shoot them for me.


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## Baymule

It can cost $600 plus to get a dead, euthanized, pile of poisoned horse meat hauled to the landfill.


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## NH homesteader

Holy cow. $600?

Thank goodness for my husband,  he does all the dirty work for me.  But I know by having animals that it'd my job if he isn't around. I also have a friend who lives just up the road who responds to a "911" text message within a minute with a gun.  Helps to have neighbors!


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## Latestarter

NH homesteader said:


> Holy cow. $600? <---Should read "Holy Horse Meat (Bat Man)!"
> 
> Thank goodness for my husband,  he does all the dirty work for me.  But I know by having animals that it'd my job if he isn't around. I also have a friend who lives just up the road who responds to a "911" text message within a minute with a gun.  (SOMETIMES!) Helps to have neighbors!


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## Beekissed

Had a couple of spare roosters trussed up and lying in the coop bedding this morning so I could butcher early this morning.  Went to the house to get ready to do so and looked out the window to see a chicken hopping down the yard like a kangaroo...and Ben walking slowly behind him.  Finally, the chicken, having gotten out of the coop and hopped 50 yds towards the house with his legs still tied together, laid down to rest.  Ben stands over the chicken, looks at it, then at the house and barked a couple of times.  He waited a moment or so and then barked at the house again, tail up and watching the house to see if I would respond.

I yell out the window, "I'm_ coming_!!!!  I know about the chicken, Ben!" 

Ben looks at the chicken one more time and casually walks away. 

And these LGDs don't bond with their chickens.....


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## Southern by choice

I love when they let us know something is a miss.

But sorry, that is just doing his job not bonding with chickens.


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## Baymule

Ben is a smart boy. He knew there was something wrong about that rooster!


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> I love when they let us know something is a miss.
> 
> But sorry, that is just doing his job not bonding with chickens.



What would you consider as "bonding"?


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## Goat Whisperer

Have you ever had a real good LGD with goats? Now THAT is bonding


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## Southern by choice

Bonding requires relationship and communication.
When you take a chicken and remove it for slaughter Ben does not "grieve" the loss. In the same way he would not know if "one" was missing.  

The fact that he he protects his charges and communicates with you is awesome.

With a name like Ben you knew he'd be awesome! 
(The name Ben is a favorite of mine)


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> Bonding requires relationship and communication.
> When you take a chicken and remove it for slaughter Ben does not "grieve" the loss. In the same way he would not know if "one" was missing.
> 
> The fact that he he protects his charges and communicates with you is awesome.
> 
> With a name like Ben you knew he'd be awesome!
> (The name Ben is a favorite of mine)



Jake grieves the loss of his birds, sometimes for days and days.....would you call that bonding?  If so, would you think that Ben, being very young yet, might reach that level of bonding as well?   Ben does become more anxious if I'm moving the birds and they make cries...he also has his nose on that bird every step I take in the  move.  To me it is starting to seem he is growing more attached to this flock. 

I've seen many GPs that range far and away from their flocks, especially at night....I'm thinking those are not bonded with their flocks at all, so maybe it's not always a natural thing that comes with the breed or type of dog, no matter what he's guarding.


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## babsbag

I won't say that my dogs are bonded to any of my goats. They HAVE to spend time together and they are in a small enough area that the goats can be out of sight but not necessarily out of "smell". If I sell a goat, like I did today, the dogs watch it leave but once it is gone, it's gone, they don't seem to care.   I have seen my dogs tell the goats to stay put, I have seen the dogs run the goats back into the barn, but I still won't say that they are bonded. They exist together because they have no choice and the dogs do the job I need them to do, bond or not.


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## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> Jake grieves the loss of his birds, sometimes for days and days.....would you call that bonding?


I guess it depends on how you see grieving.
If I came to your house and bought a chicken would Jake or Ben know it? 

Would they be frantic and upset that I bought the bird? 


Beekissed said:


> To me it is starting to seem he is growing more attached to this flock.


The nature of the LGD is to protect. Some are territorial bonders. Everything in the dogs territory is theirs and they own it and they protect it. However they do not cuddle nurture give commands etc like those that are herd bonders. 



Beekissed said:


> I've seen many GPs that range far and away from their flocks, especially at night....I'm thinking those are not bonded with their flocks at all,



Not true. The patroller will go  far from the herd etc that is what they do patrol and keep things from even coming in close. The watcher stays with. That is why teams are best. At night is when predators are most active. Patrollers are always on the move at night.


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## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> I guess it depends on how you see grieving.
> If I came to your house and bought a chicken would Jake or Ben know it?
> 
> Would they be frantic and upset that I bought the bird?
> 
> The nature of the LGD is to protect. Some are territorial bonders. Everything in the dogs territory is theirs and they own it and they protect it. However they do not cuddle nurture give commands etc like those that are herd bonders.
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. The patroller will go  far from the herd etc that is what they do patrol and keep things from even coming in close. The watcher stays with. That is why teams are best. At night is when predators are most active. Patrollers are always on the move at night.



I've seen many LGDs with herds of sheep and didn't see a one of them get upset when a sheep was sold or removed from the herd for slaughter...I'm guessing they weren't bonded with their herds?  As those sheep were loaded into my truck, they were just watching and wagging their tails.  

My sister used to breed GPs and she also had goats they guarded but I don't recall any of her dogs getting frantic when a goat left the farm on a truck.  

If getting frantic when a sheep leaves the herd when it's sold or trucked away is the definition of bonding, I guess I've never seen a LGD actually bonded with a herd in my life, though I've seen many on guard in the fields where they and the sheep lived together.  

And...yes, Ben and Jake would absolutely know you took one of their chickens and would be following you with that chicken until they came up against their boundary and could go no further.  They follow me in that same way when I remove a chicken and they ain't a bit happy about it.  They aren't anywhere near what I'd call "frantic" but they are not at ease and they are certainly on alert and following that bird.


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## Southern by choice

Well I did not post that to argue with you.
I posted that because this forum and LGD posts are read by thousands of people that are not members.

I work with so many people and LGD's and it is something that can be misleading for many. I average 4 people a month that come to my farm so they can see the dogs with poultry and how they operate and teach many about the use of the LGD in regards to poultry.

It is completely different then a LGD that is a herd guardian.

Your references to never seeing a dog bonded based on the criteria is a bit troublesome. Perhaps you haven't seen a well bonded dog to it's herd. I don't know. I share that in many posts, not all LGD's bond with a herd but rather they are territorial and everything in their territory is theirs and they protect it. If it gets the job done that is what is important.

That is one of the biggies as far as consults go... we get a lot of questions in regard to this. Many are not sure of their dogs because they are not bonded. Breed of LGD makes a difference as well. Anatolians bond tighter with their goats than most other breeds. Sheep are far less bonding to any dog. Goats are more social and often do.

There is a difference between a dog that is protective and guards well and one that bonds. Chickens have no ability to bond with the dog. It is a mutual respect and takes mutual communication between the two.
It does make a difference. Chickens do not seek out the comfort or protection from the dog.


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## Beekissed

I think I'd have to differ with that last statement...chickens do and will seek the dogs for protection, IME.  

You may know dogs, Southern, and I respect that and am grateful for your input in all ways, but I know chickens....they do actively seek out the dogs for protection here and I've seen it with my own eyes.  

Not wanting to argue at all, that's not why I post here, but I still believe that these are not cookie cutter types of dogs that adhere to one standard of behavior for every situation or circumstance.  Every circumstance and dog is unique within that frame of reference, so I don't think this is misleading to people at all...rather it informs them of the possibilities.  

Now, I don't believe I'll ever see Ben snuggling with the rooster any time soon , but I do see in him a protective nature towards these birds and I see those same birds, in the run from aerial predators, not running towards the coop but running towards where the dogs are.


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## Beekissed

I took advantage of a training opportunity tonight...seems like that's how much of the training gets done here, not structured at all. 

Mom had left a large piece of styrofoam in the yard and Ben had nabbed it and was chewing on it...from the house I noticed it and yelled out the window, "BEN! LEAVE IT!" and was surprised that he immediately stopped chewing the foam, though I would have preferred that he move away from the object also. I was surprised because I've only had to use that command on him a handful of times and never from that far distance. 

In a few moments I went up the yard to retrieve the foam, but I also brought their favorite treat of all....pork femurs. HUGE bones that they can chew the ends off of, but cannot really chew up the whole bone, so this leaves them with many gnawing opportunities in which to get their chewing needs out. 

Jake waited impatiently while I cut his bone out of the package~but still gave me space, so I gave him his first. Ben kept bumping the wrapped bone with his nose while I was trying to cut it open and unwrap...so I told him, in just a conversational tone of voice and manner, "I'd really like for you to be lying down and waiting patiently until I give this to you." 

He backed off and laid down!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Anyone watching would think I'm some uber dog trainer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Not a bit of it...I was just as surprised as anyone would be that he actually listened and complied! He politely received the bone when it was given and moved away to eat on it. Sometimes that dog has his moments, I tell ya... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Then, as I was walking back down to the house, I heard Ben give a quick growl and lunge at a chicken that got too close to his bone. I gave him a verbal correction for it, but then I got to thinking...that's the first time I'd seen Ben do that. He's even shared raw deer meat with chickens and didn't get aggressive. 

So...another training moment. I walked up to him and placed my hand on his bone. A very low and short growl was given. A very sharp verbal correction was returned and also a quick slap to the muzzle. He released the bone but didn't back off. Then I put my hand on it again..no growl, but he didn't release the bone. I moved my other hand to the bone and moved my body in a position over the bone and just waited. He suddenly let go of the bone and rolled over on his side, exposing his belly and then further to expose his throat. EXCELLENT response!!!!! Amazed moment #3! 

I then picked up the bone and stood up. He stood up and watched the bone. I pointed at the ground and he laid down right away. He acted calm, so I gave him his bone back. 

Good session!

Then, I did the same to Jake...when one has little kids around, it's always a good idea to train these dogs that humans give the food and they can also take the food. I put my hand on Jake's bone...no growl, but he didn't let go. I put my other hand on the bone and moved it down to where his mouth was. He didn't let go. I waited and moved my body over the bone more. He let go and turned his head away. I picked up his bone and stepped back and he still didn't look at me or the bone. Good response!!! I gave his bone back. 

Then I moved back to Ben and put my hand on his bone...he hesitated a moment, so I put my other hand on it. He released it and moved his head back but remained lying down when I stood up with his bone. I then gave the bone back. 

I'm very pleased with how that all went and I'll try to remember to work on that again the next time we get fresh bones to give them. I'm VERY pleased with Ben's quick learning after his initial small growl. That's the first time he's ever growled at any of us and I've worked on taking his dog food and deer scraps before but never a fresh bone. 

I don't think any reaction is too over the top or aggressive when correcting a dog's growl at a familiar human or a child, especially over possession of food or a toy. That's just something they need to know real quick and in a hurry that is NEVER allowed. EVER. Under no circumstance are they to offer a growl to a familiar person....that's how bites happen to little children.


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## Kusanar

His reaction when you just talked to him reminded me of a funny moment with 2 of my horses. A friend of mine was riding my 16 hand colt and my 32 inch mini was loose in the ring, the friend was trying to get Stud to back up, he had planted his feet and was refusing to move in any direction, she was verbally telling him "back" as she worked to get him moving. All of a sudden, the mini comes flying over at a fast trot, right at Studs face, ears flat, Stud took 2 startled steps backwards, the mini put his ears up and walked off... the 2 of us humans almost fell off our horses laughing at the situation.


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## babsbag

Ben sounds like a great dog, glad he worked out so well and is nice when they are amazing. 

My LGDs are lost causes but my border collie house dogs are so responsive it is almost scary. I don't even give commands most of the time, I just talk to them in complete sentences like I would a child and they do as I ask. They are 9 years old now so we just have a language all our own. It makes me cringe every time I think of having to train a new puppy; I wish these girls could live forever. Sometimes I forget that they are just dogs. I used to do agility with them and that really cemented a bond between us.


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## Beekissed

Those BC are scary smart dogs!  Jake is half BC and we always joke he could do our taxes if we let him take a course on it.  He's been able to learn anything we care to teach him, even in his golden years. 

After reading about how independent and stubborn LGDs were supposed to be, I'm very surprised at how responsive Ben has been to even my pitiful and infrequent attempts to train.  And he hasn't even got what most would consider as any kind of good breeding behind him, so it's not due to having the greatest bloodlines at all.  He's a mutt, pure and simple.  

I've mostly experienced GPs and GP mix dogs in that type of dog and they've ALL been surprisingly easy to train, responsive to direction and seem very sensitive to what you are wanting....even seem to anticipate what you want. 

Very sweet dogs.


----------



## Southern by choice

For most they are harder to work with. But I agree, I find them easier in some ways because they are so intelligent. 
I was reading your post last night but was too tired to post. 

LOL with the bone issue. I agree, not hard to teach a dog -any dog- what is right and acceptable. It is common sense really. I have my "grand-puppy" here temporarily. She is a red coonhound cross.

First- I do not like hounds  
Second, she never had anyone really work with her. She was with a family and they were relocated and the husband was deployed. My son took her, yet at the time living apt life and not much time.
So now she is with us til my son goes to closing on his house. 

She had a bone last week - she was given it because she is still very young and "chewey". My daughter went to take the bone and she growled.

OH HECK NO! 

She was quickly introduced to _"Southern's"_ rules. 
Needless to say, she will GLADLY give anything up that we want to take from her now. 
The more "work" I do with her the more I like her. She is smart, and like all dogs WANTS to please. Beekissed you and I know relationship is key, not sure why it is such a hard concept for so many.

Having to work with this girl on trash digging... she sticks her nose in it all the time (HOUNDS ) . She is doing great though. The other day she was sniffing at the kitchen trash when I came around the corner... I said, "Sadie, no you get your nose outta there, go out to the other room." 
She went out to the FR and lay down.. I came i a few minutes later and she had head between her front legs and with head down looked up. I ignored her.
I have to laugh here though because it was so pathetic. I am a big believer in PRAISE and SHAME.  I have never used food for training/teaching and never will. It is all about respect. Of course tracking is the exception... kinda have to use food for beginning tracking.
She is turning into a great do. She sits, stays, drops on command, comes when called and has learned "easy" when playing.
Dogs are happiest when they have discipline and training. 
But I also see where this is going... my son thinks she would do "best" here. 

Didn't mean to take over your thread... I'll have to post about some interesting LGD stuff on my thread.

BTW- I really love this dog.


----------



## Beekissed

Southern, I love it when you step onto this thread!!!  And I'm simply amazed at what you've accomplished with a hound dog....they are so hard to train in obedience in so many ways.  There are exceptions, to be sure, but quite often they have a hard, hard head due to years of breeding towards one goal.  

I have a feeling you have a new dog....   

I know what you mean...relationship is key.  And it can't be what most people call relationship, where they give a dog a lot of love and affection and don't expect anything back except for the same.  Or where the dog rules them and the house, doesn't listen to anything they say and pretty much dictates how things will be.  

For instance...I have a sister who has many dogs and always has, but I never witness any kind of a relationship between them. One of the dogs kinds of guards her all the time but I never see him coming to her for anything~be it affection or anything else.  She loves that dog and thinks it loves her so much because he paces around her all the time , follows her wherever she goes, etc.  It never responds if she gives a command of any kind and it never goes to her for affection, just stations himself next to her.  She calls that love and protectiveness...I see obsession and possession and no respect for her, just ownership of dog towards human.   

To this day I've never seen any of her dogs go to her how dogs normally would do...tail wagging, ears low, mouths open and just wanting affection and direction~you've seen that look...like the sun rises and sets in you and they want only to worship at your feet.   

Hers are constantly barking and she screams at them to stop but they never do, they kill one another(the pit bulls), and run off every chance they have.  They all bark AT her and her husband when they arrive at the home, especially the one that likes to pace around her all the time...you'd think dogs would know enough to not bark at their own people, but I think it says a lot about their relationship...or lack thereof.  

No relationship.  Not anything I'd call healthy, anyway.


----------



## Baymule

Bee what a wonderful moment! Ben did everything right and you are right, he sure made you look like a master dog trainer!  What a fantastic training session. Give him a big hug.


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## Southern by choice

You are so right! 
That dog sounds like he is anxiety ridden as well. 
Or feeding off her "vibe" for lack of a better term. 

Yeah, I might say my dogs are my babies BUT I don't MEAN that they are. They are dogs through and through! 
I think it is horrible to deny the dog the ability to be a dog. They aren't humans, aren't children... grrrrr I know- I won't use your thread to rant. 

I will confess, in my aging I am not as intense as I once was and let things roll a little more.

Yeah, this dog cannot stay!!!!!!!! I do love her BUT NO! Of course from just correcting her she has now decided I am hers and gets jealous (with the other dogs).  So NOW I have to work on that. She has been great for my GSD though. She can actually wear the GSD out. 



Beekissed said:


> you've seen that look...like the sun rises and sets in you and they want only to worship at your feet.



You nailed it! 
"Blue" of course (why I love him so much) never lets on. I just love his arrogance... but boy is he loyal.


----------



## Beekissed

Southern by choice said:


> I think it is horrible to deny the dog the ability to be a dog. They aren't humans, aren't children... grrrrr I know- I won't use your thread to rant.



Rant on...I feel the exact same way.  Pure selfishness that treats dogs like humans...they have been uniquely designed by God to be a dog, with all the natural dog instincts and traits.  To treat them like a human just cheapens that and disparages it.  

I've seen it all my life...the most contented dogs seem to be those who are simply dogs, sitting at the feet of the humans(not on top of them, on their beds, on their furniture, etc.) and waiting to do things to please them, or just trotting around with other dogs, doing what dogs like to do.  

And, I agree....her dogs are all nervous wrecks, especially the one that paces around her.  She calls him Shifty..and I'd have to agree with aptness of the name...poor dog.  And your assessment was correct..they feed off her own vibe.


----------



## Southern by choice

Mine are on the furniture. 

LOL For years I never allowed it... until the dog was old and then I felt they had deserved a little luxury with their old bones and joints.
Now only certain dogs are allowed on the furniture. But the dogs (housedogs) are limited to certain rooms. 

When we retired Badger he wouldn't leave the family room. 
It took a year before we could even get him to put his paw on the couch. LOL   

I hate dog hair. Yet I love hairy dogs! 

We just took one of the LGD's to TSC and SS - someone had their little dogs in a baby stroller.    
I don't know, it makes me nuts.
 Doggy daycare? Are you serious? If you need daycare for your dog then don't get one.


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## Goat Whisperer

@Beekissed & @Southern by choice  I hope you find this as funny as I do


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## Beekissed

A cashier at Rural King saw the huge bones I had and asked me what kind of dogs I had...I told her "Big ones".  She laughed and suggested I bring them in next time I come.  I looked her in the eye, smiled and gently told her, "They aren't that kind of dogs...these are working dogs."   

The smile went right off her face...you'd have thought I said I was beating them with a hose every day.    How dare I deny them the opportunity to go the 20 mi. to town ~they both hate riding in cars and trucks~and stroll through a store!!!!...then get right back in the car/truck and go 20 mi. back...     What a HUGE thrill for a dog.


----------



## Beekissed

Goat Whisperer said:


> @Beekissed & @Southern by choice  I hope you find this as funny as I do



I truly can't remember the last time I laughed that hard!!!!      Thank you!!!  I'm stealing this......


----------



## Southern by choice

Isn't that hilarious.


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## Southern by choice

especially the part about what happened to the kid? 
What kid? 

and the dead dog and the lady thinks she is a hero 

and what about the shared Rx 

First time I saw this I was crying laughing- my cheeks hurt


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## Latestarter

I know that was supposed to be funny... I thought it was so stupid, I couldn't finish watching it... beyond stupid really...


----------



## NH homesteader

Yup with you on that Latestarter.


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## Southern by choice

Latestarter said:


> I know that was supposed to be funny... I thought it was so stupid, I couldn't finish watching it... beyond stupid really...



It is stupid, but sadly this is today.

Many don't work or are not around the vet med/ canine world and you don't get to see this craziness first hand. Trust me you'd be shaking your head and your jaw would hit the floor as some of the crazy.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Well, I DID specify it to Beekissed and SBC for a reason 
I knew you would post stating that you don't like it. Hence the reason above.

Yep, when you get to see it first hand it is very similar. 
We have a farm animal rescue right down the road from us, it all started when they "rescued" a rooster from being someone's supper.
They are of the mindset that they should all be pets and shouldn't be killed because they don't lay eggs. SMH! I'll stop there as this is supposed to be "family friendly"  You are right IT IS "beyond stupid really"


----------



## NH homesteader

I get why it would be funny.  I just don't think it was.  Amy Schumer isn't that funny to me.  

On the other hand it is hilarious when I see people looking for adoptive rooster homes.


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## Beekissed

I don't have TV so am not familiar with the actresses at all, but the concept was funny...tragically so...but truth in every joke they made. 

People DO care more about the dogs than the children out there needing homes, they DO feel like they are heroes for "rescuing" dogs...sorry, unless that dog was physically removed by them from raging flood waters, a burning building, a leg hold trap or otherwise dire circumstance, they are not a "rescue" and that term cheapens the actual definition of the word.  They DO make them roll around in little carts in an attempt to keep them longer...what a horrible quality of life for a dog!  And they DO have a snobbery attached to their "rescue" of mutts from the pound, putting down anyone who actually raises purebred dogs and sells the pups.  And I can't tell you how many times I've read about some dog or other~right here on these forums~that have "anxiety or separation" issues and are on medicine for it!  People all over the world who can't get or afford medical care and the US is medicating dogs for psychological issues.  

Funny as all get out to know that the very people who probably do these things(actors/actresses, among others) can still see how very stupid it all is and laughable to the rest of the world...but still stupid. 

So, to me, it was incredibly funny...tragically so, because it's the truth of the world in which we live today...but funny to watch them make fun of it.  If that makes any sense....


----------



## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> they DO feel like they are heroes for "rescuing" dogs...sorry, unless that dog was physically removed by them from raging flood waters, a burning building, a leg hold trap or otherwise dire circumstance, they are not a "rescue" and that term cheapens the actual definition of the word.



EXACTLY!  I am so sick of hearing that term.  
22 soldiers a day take their life they have no help and no one cries... put a "save me" ad up for dogs and money pours in. What has happened to humanity.


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## Beekissed

Well...they took the human part out of "humanity" it and gave it to the dogs.


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## Bruce

Southern by choice said:


> ...
> 
> But I also see where this is going... my son thinks she would do "best" here.


Not a problem SBC! Tell him you won't charge him for the professional training the dog got while he was waiting to buy the house IF he takes the dog back. Otherwise it is $100/month 'room and board' and $100/hour for training for as long as you have the dog. Pay on time or he will find the dog in his living room when he gets home from work.


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## Beekissed

Tough love kid advice from Bruce????!!!!


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## Kusanar

Bruce said:


> Not a problem SBC! Tell him you won't charge him for the professional training the dog got while he was waiting to buy the house IF he takes the dog back. Otherwise it is $100/month 'room and board' and $100/hour for training for as long as you have the dog. Pay on time or he will find the dog in his living room when he gets home from work.





Beekissed said:


> Tough love kid advice from Bruce????!!!!



Lol, that is funny, could also be a decent money maker!


----------



## Beekissed

Ben and a few of his chickens, resting in the cool grass.


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## frustratedearthmother

Nice!  (looks like a pic of the week to me)


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## Beekissed

Sleeping on the job or killed in action?


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## Baymule

That's so funny, but so true! I was delighted the first time I saw Trip asleep on the job. It meant that he was at ease, guarding his sheep and NOT playing with them.

I love to see sleeping LGD's. But don't be fooled, they can galvanize to action in a split second.


----------



## Beekissed

Chicken killin' day here on the homestead and Ben gets his share.  Jake and Ben had a brief but loud disagreement over chicken feet, but as usual, Jake always wins.  

Ben, looking very primal....



 

...and very moochy.... 



 

Ben's very much a homestead dog now, doing his job well and responding quickly to verbal corrections...usually only takes one correction before he gets it and he rarely ever needs a correction.  Mostly for getting too excited and in people's faces too much when we get company...he's a big lovey dog, that one.   Just wants to be petted.  

Going into his second winter he's filled out in the body and has gained in speed...he can keep up with Jake now when they run and play, so all that gangly long legged youth has turned to muscle and speed.  He's got a good friend in the cat and they play a good bit....funny to watch these two white animals running through a white flock of chickens!  



 

Ben's quickly become a family favorite and I haven't met anyone yet that visited that didn't want to take him home.  He's friendly and mannerly once he gets over the initial excitement of someone new(bounces around and wants to be petted at first), is calm and obedient on walks~on leash and off, is as quiet as Jake is which is quite the luxury in this breed so I'm really appreciating the peace and quiet...he only barks when he needs to and it's usually pretty brief.  

Still tears up anything that's left in the yard but I've fixed the bench so that he can't tear it up....and now they don't really want to sleep on it either...not cushy enough, I guess.  

We are still as pleased as punch with Ben and he has turned out to be one great chicken dog, a great family dog and a great work partner to me and to Jake.  Wouldn't sell him for any amount of money, he's that valuable here.  

He'll be getting more fresh meat as the butchering and hunting season goes along...this is his fattening up for winter time, a good time to be a dog.


----------



## Southern by choice

So glad to "see" you! 
Was wondering if everything was ok, hadn't heard from you in awhile!

Ben is a lovely dog! I know what you mean... they really are worth so much more than a dollar figure.


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## Beekissed

Good to see you too, Southern  ...was reading about Blue the other night but didn't get a chance to comment.  I'm so glad it was only an ear...he's a beautiful dog!  I love reading about your dogs and their adventures, how they work and whose going to have pups next.  

Oh, yeah...I couldn't imagine doing without Ben now, he's pretty integral to the homestead.  Jake's showing some signs of age and possibly something more, so it was the right time to train up a partner and eventual replacement.  

Ben...always sweet, always eager to please and always smart as a tack...love that dog.


----------



## Southern by choice

I love the pyr, I love the Anatolian. I think the cross is usually just a fantastic dog! 

Ben is Ben IMO because of what you poured into him as well. 
I am such a believer in these dogs are independent yet they do want that partnership and do so much better with those that respect, work with and love them!

I am sorry to hear about Jake maybe having more going on. 
Our old gal Lucy is sadly not going to be around for very long either.
Hate this part.


----------



## Latestarter

It's the absolute worst part of dog ownership  Tearing up a bit now from having to put down my Mystie before leaving Colorado.


----------



## babsbag

They should live as long as we do...at least the good ones should.   Sorry to read that Jake is having some problems.


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## Beekissed

You guys know what it means to lose a good dog...I think we all do by now and it never gets any easier.  Somehow, when you've worked alongside a dog and depended upon him to help you with things, it leaves such a huge gap in the world when they go....they are more than a mere pet, they are partners in what you were trying to accomplish, there won't be another that works like that one, each having their own special traits and qualities that make them who and what they are. 

If they are a good dog, they each have their own legend that gets told and retold down through the years.  Each new dog will be compared to the great ones gone before until you realize he/she possesses their own greatness that gets added to the lore of the pack.  You really can't compare them, as they all have a certain greatness that writes their own story.  

God has blessed me with some truly great dogs in my life....Jake is one of these.  He has been a good dog from the start.  We have many stories to tell of him and we'll smile as we tell them, as he is just that kind of dog.  Loyal, faithful, intelligent, funny and truly a humble creature, working only to please us each and every day of his life...he's never let me down.  I'm hoping he sticks around awhile longer and doesn't suffer near his end...I'll be praying that for him.


----------



## Southern by choice

well said


----------



## Baymule

You have made Ben the dog he is by letting who and what he is open up and bloom under your care and supervision. The two of you are partners in every sense of the word. Good dog, Ben. Bee, your wisdom is an inspiration to us all.


----------



## Beekissed

You guys are so sweet!  I don't know how much I had to do with Ben's status...he seemed to arrive here with a lot of potential, more than his breeding would have had me expect. I think if I were to work with him over the years he could most likely be trained for about anything, he's that smart.  

Talked to a fella on FB who has a pack of Anatolians and he's pretty crippled up but he still homesteads.  Said he has taught the leader of his pack to help him up when he falls down and also to steady him as he walks short distances...said he was training him to be an assist dog.  As close as Ben walks to my legs when we go for walks, I'm guessing it wouldn't be too hard to train him on that as well...he's very much in tune with how slow or fast the person walking next to him is, especially if he's wearing a leash. He slows way down for Mom and Aliza and you can tell he's watching them to see how fast he should go.  

I'd like to train him on a recreational harness and see if he likes to pull.  Some dogs do, some don't...if he does, I may give him some light pulling to do this winter and maybe teach him to pull Aliza on a sled.  Jake loves to pull and I've hooked his leash to my cart and let him help me pull it before...he seems to know when to pull and when to stop instinctively.   

These dogs seem to love to help me work, no matter what kind of work I'm doing...in these pics Ben is holding down plastic and tarps for me as I work on the coop.    Good thing he did...it was a windy day...though I had a hard time making him get off the tarp..every time I'd get him off and start to move it, he'd walk right back on it and stand solid,bringing me to an abrupt stop.  Guess he took that job too seriously.


----------



## Southern by choice

I love this Bee! We are working with Not Leo as therapy but hope to work it so he can be an actual registered light duty service dog too.
All our dogs help us up off the ground, they are naturals. They just "know" I am old I guess and it is hard to get up with my knees. They stand and when I grab on they brace. It is amazing how many pyrs and Tolis are therapy and light service dogs.

That would be wonderful to train Be, if he is inclined, to pull. I have considered this but the goats are a pain whenever we have a cart or wheel barrow out they jump in... and out... and in.... and out. 

Bee you would shake your head if you saw Badger (indoor retired LGD). My Dh has ruined him.   Badge can't get away with stuff with me but my dh... ugh... so ridiculous. 
Badger has temper tantrums and he will look at me, like an undisciplined ill mannered 3 year old that has been able to get away with everything with one parent... yeah that's Badger. I actually get a lot of amusement out of it and he never does anything really bad. I am just happy my Dh has "his" dog after all these years and all the dogs I have owned. It is good for Dh. Badge loves him. 
I keep trying to get his antics on video but my children always have my phone.


----------



## Baymule

Yeah, don't you just love it when they "help" you?  I was clipping T-posts a few weeks ago and Trip "helped" me by closely supervising everything. Mind you, he is between me and the T-post, "helping".


----------



## Beekissed

I feel like Ben's got brothers out there!!!  So many similarities in these breeds...these dogs are thinkers and lovers, very considerate but also ornery at times, getting up to things.  Bay, that even looks like Ben's fur in that pic!  

When I was working up at the coop I caught Ben making off with something out of my wagon...sneaking off with it.  Told him to drop it and he did...then strolled over and laid down like nothing had happened.  

Southern, I love it that your hubs has his own dog and the dog knows it!   Hey, you still have that extra dog your son wanted you to keep for a bit?


----------



## Bruce

Somehow the concept of a GP as a "light" service dog is funny. Light duty maybe but not a light dog!


----------



## Southern by choice

I am happy DH has his "own" dog. It is ridiculous though how Badge will give this look- like he thinks I'm jealous and he does this "yeah, daddy loves me" thing. 

My son closed on his house and so my "grand-puppy" is no longer here. She did visit the other day though. 

I have "Rita" to raise now. 
You know- you make ONE little comment like "I would snatch that pup up in a minute" and next thing ya know you have a pup flying cross country.  
ALL @babsbag  and @frustratedearthmother 's fault!


----------



## Bruce

Think, THEN talk SBC!


----------



## Beekissed

Bruce, I see you have a neato new 'Paca avatar of the boys!   Very pretty, they are.


----------



## Baymule

Bruce said:


> Think, THEN talk SBC!


----------



## frustratedearthmother

Southern by choice said:


> ALL @babsbag and @frustratedearthmother 's fault!



Guilty as charged!  And, quite proud of it too!


----------



## Bruce

Beekissed said:


> Bruce, I see you have a neato new 'Paca avatar of the boys!   Very pretty, they are.


Yep! I figured since this is the "herd" forum and I now (sort of) have a herd, they should be my avatar instead of my herd of chickens


----------



## Beekissed

Ben seems to have filled out all the sudden.  One day a lanky and gangly teenager and the next a thick, muscular dog.  I'll have to start watching that he doesn't get TOO fluffy, if ya know what I mean!  

It looks good on him and he looks quite handsome.  He's getting faster and can really keep up with Jake now, though Jake still dominates the food and play.  

Today he was patiently letting Aliza shovel dirt on him, just loving all the attention he was getting.    When he wasn't getting in her space, he was getting in mine, having to be standing right where I'm working so that I have to push him to one side, in my face, or leaning up against me all the time.    He's a big ol' baby dog.  




 

 

 

I'll try to get pics of him soon that show him standing up...if I can get him far away from me to actually get a picture of  him.    He's a velcro dog, for sure.


----------



## TAH

Oh Ben is such a patient looking boy. 
Your daughter is adorable.


----------



## Beekissed

TY!!!  I find her quite delightful, though she's not my daughter but my grandgirl instead...2 yrs old....she's incredibly entertaining and wonderful to be around.   She's my garden, coop, and homestead helper...life is just better when she's around.  Calls me "Gannie"....


----------



## Baymule

What a beautiful child. I know she lights up your life. We moved here because of our grand daughter, then we got 2 more after we got here! Talk about fortunate! And our dogs adore them as much as Ben adores Aliza. I love it that Ben plays "dirt" with Aliza, these dogs are truly remarkable. What a good boy, Ben!


----------



## Southern by choice

It is always funny to go back and look at pics of our dogs at the gangly stage. Ben never looked gangly to me though he always seemed mature.  

Your GD sure is cute! I would have never guessed she is your joy!


----------



## Beekissed

Ben continues to do well as a chicken dog, though not real vigilant about hawks yet, I think he did much to foil the efforts of a great horned owl this past season.   No strays dogs come drifting through with Ben on guard and that's exactly why I needed him...strays are our most dangerous predator.  

The other day I was quite pleased to see him go guard on some visiting tree trimming guys who were clearing the electric lines.  Just a good barked warning when they arrived, then alert stance, observed their conversing with us, then gave a good woof or two each time they crossed the property back and forth to their trucks, while lying down and at attention watching their every move in between these passes.  

I could tell the workers were nervous about him, which is the desired result, and he didn't bark his fool head off all day but stayed VERY alert, which was also the desired result.  He was clearly letting them know, "I am WATCHING you, Bub, and ya better not put a foot wrong here!"  I was quite proud of him!    Jake backed him up, as usual, by being the very silent~but menacing looking(that Border Collie gaze thingy)~sidekick.  

I kept thinking, "If these guys only knew....the only harm that would be inflicted would be a possible knee injury from the huge wagging tails!"   

A few pics of the big ol' guard puppy...filling out nicely into what is likely his adult size/weight.  



 

 

Built him a hayhut in the spare pen again this year for sleeping....it's designed for quick exiting, good scenting and hearing, but still has great windblock and insulation. 



 

And, besides Jake and I, Ben has one more best bud...I see them loving on one another a good bit while Ben is on guard.    Flash..the wonder cat.  Tickles me to see this great white dog and small white cat cuddling up with one another...can't seem to get a pic of it, though, as they both come running if I step outdoors to take a pic!


----------



## frustratedearthmother

He really is a beautiful guy and I'm glad he's turned into such a good guardian too!


----------



## Baymule

I like the hay hut idea, I bet it works great on those cold nights! Ben is such a good dog, keeping you and animals safe from those bad ol' high line workers! He is a handsome boy.


----------



## Beekissed

What's really kind of cool is, that under that hay bed of his is some composting DL...you can put your hand under his bed and feel the warmth from that composting!  So, Ben has a heated bed, lucky dog!  

Ben really needs sheep.  Ain't gonna happen but he really needs something to guard and nurture...I think he would be so fulfilled if he just had a few sheeples to watch over.  

Bay, how's yer pretty sheeples doin'?


----------



## Baymule

They are doing good. I have 3 ram lambs and have 2 of them already sold. My ram, Prince, finally challenged me and I used my horse round pen training on him. In that, I ran him away from the flock. I chased him, waving my arms and yelling, scaring the devil out of him......until next time. LOL. Horses are prey animals and want to be part of the herd. Separate them from the herd and they frantically want to rejoin the herd, they are vulnerable to predators and they know that. Running them away from the herd is punishment. My mule filly had a temper fit once because I was petting another horse and not her. She stomped her foot a few times, then still ignored, she got mad and bit me. I ran her away from the herd for about 30 minutes and she never offered to bite again. So....I used the same train of thought on Prince. We'll see if it works.

When I get better at this sheep raising I want to go into registered Dorpers. My next ram will be a registered Dorper and maybe a couple of ewes to go with him.

Bee, are you sure that you couldn't maybe squeeze a couple of ewes in there?


----------



## Latestarter

What ^she^ said! A couple sheep shouldn't be a huge issue, right? And Ben really, really needs them  to become all that he can be... All the fencing and shelter won't take long or cost much... And think how much your little grand daughter will enjoy them! OK... I'll stop now


----------



## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> They are doing good. I have 3 ram lambs and have 2 of them already sold. My ram, Prince, finally challenged me and I used my horse round pen training on him. In that, I ran him away from the flock. I chased him, waving my arms and yelling, scaring the devil out of him......until next time. LOL. Horses are prey animals and want to be part of the herd. Separate them from the herd and they frantically want to rejoin the herd, they are vulnerable to predators and they know that. Running them away from the herd is punishment. My mule filly had a temper fit once because I was petting another horse and not her. She stomped her foot a few times, then still ignored, she got mad and bit me. I ran her away from the herd for about 30 minutes and she never offered to bite again. So....I used the same train of thought on Prince. We'll see if it works.
> 
> When I get better at this sheep raising I want to go into registered Dorpers. My next ram will be a registered Dorper and maybe a couple of ewes to go with him.
> 
> Bee, are you sure that you couldn't maybe squeeze a couple of ewes in there?



Using "join up"on sheep!!!!  Brilliant and I've been thinking about that too when folks mention having a ram they can't trust.  Did you notice any behavior change as you ran him in a circle like the horses do(head down, chewing, etc.) that would indicate he was asking to be let back into the herd?  I'm guessing a person would have to study sheep a long while in a herd situation in order to see those little body language cues, huh?  

Excellent idea, Bay...you should really do more of that and see what you learn.  I sort of do the same thing with new roosters to train them on manners, though I don't have a round pen.  I just press them away from the flock and not let them back in until I get the desired result in body language when I do the press.  



Latestarter said:


> What ^she^ said! A couple sheep shouldn't be a huge issue, right? And Ben really, really needs them  to become all that he can be... All the fencing and shelter won't take long or cost much... And think how much your little grand daughter will enjoy them! OK... I'll stop now



I would in a heartbeat if this were my land...but, alas, it's my mother's place.  I've taken enough liberties just having the chickens and dogs and she's been VERY patient and such with all of that, but sheep she will not do.  We don't have a stitch of fence or shelter, nor really enough good grass here to support more than a few sheep, so the wise choice is "NO".  Sad. But...no.  And I really, really LOVE me some sheep.


----------



## Beekissed

Just heard Ben let out a booming bark, saw him take off barking, then saw Jake streaking across the yard to back him up...man, that old dog can boot and scoot!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I got all excited, thinking I was going to see some action out there! 

Nope. Just a deer. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Jake looked back at the house, forever more as if to say, "Really? Did you see what this young pup just got me over here for????? Idiot." 

Now they are racing around in huge circles, playing tag...I guess they are just feeling good this morning. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Guess I'm going to have to school Ben again on what constitutes a threat around here.... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 To be fair, that little yearling WAS awfully close to the flock.


----------



## Beekissed

Ben is doing well on aerial preds so far, which is just what I needed...Jake just wasn't the type to care about chasing them off.  Ben races to where the chickens are giving the alarm call and up flies a big redtail hawk.   I like that about him.  

He's also kept any and all stray dogs away from the flock this year and that was my big goal...hated having to shoot dogs just to be able to keep chickens.  

The coyotes are still tuning up out there but the pack sounds smaller and we're having much less predation on the deer herd from coyotes, so their numbers must wax and wane much like any other wild animal.  I think the black bears are in hibernation finally, as we've had no more signs of them on the property this winter and Ben hasn't went off like crazy like he does when the bears are roaming close.

He's still as quiet as Jake was when he was guarding by himself, which I love....this is a quiet place with very quiet nights and I love keeping it that way.  Jake now barks none at all, as he has Ben to bark for him.    He lets Ben take the lead on all things guarding, but backs him up by his presence, if not with sound.  That's the way Jake acted when he had Lucy, my GP/Lab mix dog...if ever I heard Jake barking along with Lucy I knew we were dealing with a bear or a really close coyote pack, as he rarely barks unless it's something really big and/or potentially dangerous.  

I love how clean Ben stays...in all this mud and muck of a rainy season, he stays so white and clean.  He even smells clean.  In the sunlight his coat just sparkles, the long guard hairs are glossy enough to shine.  My last white dog didn't glisten in the sunlight like that, so I was unprepared to see that lovely sheen.  

Gave both dogs giant pork femurs today, which they love, and that should give them something good to do today.  Jake can barely carry his but those giant bones seem to fit Ben very well, he has no problems.


----------



## Baymule

Glad to hear that Ben is growing into a wonderful dog for you. I love the white Pyr fur. Trip and Paris can get dirty and muddy, but let the weather dry up and the dirt just seems to fall off. It's awesome that Ben is making such a good chicken guard. Keeping the hawks away is a big job and not all dogs are interested in it, but Ben recognizes the danger and acts on it. Good boy Ben!


----------



## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Glad to hear that Ben is growing into a wonderful dog for you. I love the white Pyr fur. Trip and Paris can get dirty and muddy, but let the weather dry up and the dirt just seems to fall off. It's awesome that Ben is making such a good chicken guard. Keeping the hawks away is a big job and not all dogs are interested in it, but Ben recognizes the danger and acts on it. Good boy Ben!



Wish I had more for him to do, ya know?  For both dogs, in fact.  It's not much of a job to watch a flock of chickens.  Just need a herd of sheep to make it interesting, huh?  

Ever notice how clean these heavy coated dogs fur is closest to their skin?  So clean and white, the skin so clean, no matter if they just got up out of lying in a dust bowl or a patch of mud.


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## Baymule

Yes definitely. Ben needs some sheep!


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## TAH

I agree, ben would love some sheep!


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## Beekissed

Hey, Bay...have you ever heard of anyone using St. Bernard dogs on guarding livestock?  I've never heard of it but their history would seem to indicate that they were bred for that very thing.


----------



## TAH

I have always wondered the same thing but instead, we are going to the Bernese Mountain Dog.


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## Beekissed

TAH said:


> I have always wondered the same thing but instead, we are going to the Bernese Mountain Dog.



I LOVE that breed!!!  I've only ever heard good things about them and I love everything I hear.  Beautiful dogs too. Around here they are VERY expensive and you can't even find a breeder nearby.  I've never seen one personally, either, so not too overbred and sold in puppy mills around these parts either.  

When my middle son was researching a dog breed that held the overall characteristics he was wanting in a dog, I kept pointing him to the Bernies...I'm hoping when he gets a place for one that he will actually search out and get one of these dogs.


----------



## TAH

Beekissed said:


> I LOVE that breed!!!  I've only ever heard good things about them and I love everything I hear.  Beautiful dogs too. Around here they are VERY expensive and you can't even find a breeder nearby.  I've never seen one personally, either, so not too overbred and sold in puppy mills around these parts either.
> 
> When my middle son was researching a dog breed that held the overall characteristics he was wanting in a dog, I kept pointing him to the Bernies...I'm hoping when he gets a place for one that he will actually search out and get one of these dogs.


They truly are lovely looking dogs!

It is sad to see them over bred and in puppy mills or way to expensive. We almost got one down in Oregon but was not happy with the breeder so we didn't get him.  We are really blessed to have found a good breeder with pups coming in October that we are talking about getting.

I hope your son can find a good breed!


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## Baymule

I never heard that about Saint Bernards. They are beautiful dogs, working dogs, it makes sense that they may have been used for guarding livestock.


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## Bruce

I thought they carried booze in barrels around their necks.


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## Beekissed

Here's some quotes off Wiki...I wonder how far they've come from their roots and if someone could take them back there by using them in a more practical application, such as LG?  Same with Newfies. 

"The ancestors of the St. Bernard share a history with the Sennenhunds, also called Swiss Mountain Dogs or Swiss Cattle Dogs, the large farm dogs of the farmers and dairymen of the livestock guardians, herding dogs, and draft dogs as well as hunting dogs, search and rescue dogs, and watchdogs. These dogs are thought to be descendants of molosser type dogs brought into the Alps by the ancient Romans, and the St. Bernard is recognized internationally today as one of the Molossoid breeds.[5]

The breed is strikingly similar to the English Mastiff, with which it shares a common ancestor known as the Alpine Mastiff. The modern St. Bernard breed is radically different than the original dogs kept at the St. Bernard hospice, most notably by being much larger in size and build. Since the late 1800s, the St. Bernard breed has been ever refined and improved using many different large Molosser breeds, including the Newfoundland, Great Pyrenees, Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, Bernese Mountain Dog, Great Dane, English Mastiff, and possibly the Tibetan Mastiff and Caucasian Ovcharka. Other breeds such as the Rottweiler, Boxer, and English Bulldog may have contributed to the St. Bernard's bloodline as well. It is suspected that many of these large breeds were used to redevelop each other to combat the threat of their extinction after World War II, which may explain why all of them played a part in the creation of the St. Bernard as seen today.[15]

The four Sennenhund breeds, the Grosser Schweizer Sennenhund (Greater Swiss Mountain Dog), the Berner Sennenhund, (Bernese Mountain Dog), the Appenzeller Sennenhund, (Appenzeller), and the Entlebucher Sennenhund (Entlebucher Mountain Dog) are similar in appearance and share the same location and history, but are tricolor rather than red and white.

The Russian army kennels crossbreed St Bernards with Caucasian Ovcharka to produce the Moscow Watchdogs that are still used as military service dogs in Russia today.[16] St Bernards have in common many characteristics of other Mountain dog breeds."


----------



## Latestarter

I don't know... the way I read that, the ones that exist today are vastly different and "polluted" with a lot of non LGD breeds... quite different than the original SB. I would imagine that there's some possibility that you could get a dog with LGD capability, but I don't think it's anything you could depend or plan on...


----------



## Beekissed

Latestarter said:


> I don't know... the way I read that, the ones that exist today are vastly different and "polluted" with a lot of non LGD breeds... quite different than the original SB. I would imagine that there's some possibility that you could get a dog with LGD capability, but I don't think it's anything you could depend or plan on...



I figured as much...but was wondering if anyone even has tried in recent years?  Wouldn't it be kind of neat to see if any of their natural instinct was still there?  Pair one up with a GP and see what happens and such...would be an interesting experiment.


----------



## Latestarter

Hmmm I believe @samssimonsays had her Rumley was 1/2 SB, or some portion, maybe a compilation of 3 breeds but I remember SB and Pyr, and she said he had virtually no LG instincts at all... I'd be better off letting her respond... I remember as a kid a farmer neighbor down the road had and bred SBs... They were just farm dogs as the only livestock she had were shetland ponies... She was an AG farmer vice livestock. The biggest thing I remember about her SBs was that they were HUGE lumbering, drool flinging/wiping/lathering/dripping, hair shedding (to stick in all that drool) machines... I'm pretty sure my experiences with them is what turned me off to dog breeds and specific dogs that drool. They would shake their heads and you'd think it was raining... spit flying in every direction!


----------



## Beekissed

Yep...that's one gross feature of that breed, even more so than the Newfies, who also have those large, saggy flues.  

I was just reading on one instagram account of a place in Belgium where this lady has the SBs just as general farm dogs, but they seem very nurturing to the small livestock, staying with them when they are sick, etc.  Both SBs and Newfies are known for that babysitting characteristic and are supposedly very courageous about defending their charges, so was just wondering if anyone used them with sheep and such on a regular basis.  

Did searches but can't find anything of that nature out there, just people telling other people not to try it, which is kind of weird....why not try it?  Where would the harm lie in trying these breeds? The worst that could happen is you wind up with a nice farm/family dog and not a LGD dog per se, but it's weird that people are so dead set against anyone even thinking about trying them.


----------



## Beekissed

On a side note, our coyote pack was singing in the field next to us last night....very pretty sound.  Jake started to howl along with, while Ben started to bark at first but switched to a bark/howl combo.  They all sang together for a brief moment and then both parties went silent at the same time, then silence for the rest of the night.  

I thought that was the neatest little moment in time, with all canines singing together a song that has likely been sung since the beginning of time.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Truthfully, unless one is already experienced at training these dogs, really know dogs, and are fine with having a pet/farm dog, I would advise against it too. 

Many are looking for "something different" or "something with color" and don't want a "common" LGD. If they "don't work out" many of these dogs end up being shot, chained, kenneled, dropped at a pound, or listed on Craigs list.

In your case, I think you would be fine. You are raising farm dogs- not LGD's.
And you are willing to work with dogs and have some experience.
I see many say "its fine if they can't be a LGD, they can live in the house" but when reality hits, they don't want a 150lb fluffball that drools and barks in the house.


----------



## NH homesteader

Pretty much what I was going to say! So I'll just say x2!


----------



## Beekissed

Oh, I have no interest in getting a SB at all, but my son got one recently and that got me to thinking about the breed and what it's actually good for.  Not much, as it currently stands, other than a family dog.  I like to puzzle out why certain dog breeds lost their original purpose and how easy or difficult it would be to return that breed to a more useful application.  

Just pondering!


----------



## samssimonsays

Rumely was a very good dog. Most of his litter mates have turned out to be amazing farm/livestock dogs. He was a slow learner but a gentle soul. He had some lgd traits coming through but it took a lot longer than normal. His daughter is half collie so even less pyr and she has soooo many lgd traits in her and has been a natural. She is still a pet only but we don't have to be concerned about her with the goats when they are out or she comes in with me. Rum had a ton of Bernard traits vs the pyr but my oh my he had the pyr hearing lol. We loved him and we could trust him with the goats and baby bunnies but he had blips of "what was he thinking" in there too which he really wasn't thinking. Usually, he'd start his zoomies and just bull doze anything and anyone in his way as he wasn't paying attention. I've gotten it. Let sitters got it. Goats got it. But he'd never intentionally hurt a fly until his daughter and our other dog (puppies mom) were involved and if anything went after them hed turn into cujo. He was able to be called off the couple times he did it but a dog rolled his daughter while playing and she ran yelping and he chased the other down. He was also very protective of our goats and us. He was still a pup and was really starting to mature but we never planned for him to be an lgd. Just a pet with the option of property protection. He slobbered if he drank and that was about it. There is a strain of Bernards that has a more dry mouth but I can't remember what it was.... A friend's aunt raised them but they smelled bad so there was a compromise with having the dry mouthed dogs. I'd get another in a heart beat like rumely but not in the intention as an lgd unless it showed it had strong traits. Bernards are very loving and good farm dogs but very slow to pick up on things it seemed with our boy. A newfoundland /pyr mix we know was very similar to rumely as well.... Maybe it's just the crosses lol.


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## Beekissed

It snowed last night and the dogs have been in seventh heaven, playing and running in that piddly bit of snow.  It's the first real snow we've had this winter, so they've been deprived.    Even the cats were chasing one another and playing in the snow.  

Got a pic of the dogs this morning as they waited for their food while I was taking snow pics.  This is something I started years ago for Jake, who tends to choke on his food due to eating so fast.  I had read that, if you made them wait for a bit before eating, that it would slow them down a bit...and it worked, so I just kept doing it.  When little Ben came along he just mimicked what Jake did at feeding time and soon surpassed Jake in his speed in lying down and ability to hold the stance for long moments.  

It turned out to be a really nice thing to not be crowded by overeager dogs when I'm dishing out the food and putting it down, so I've continued the practice.  I vary the wait times so they don't anticipate my release...sometimes I don't even require they lie down, sometimes I leave them lying there while I perform little chores nearby, but usually it's just a matter of less than a minute they have to wait. 

I never have to give a command for them to do this and never did....I just waited until they laid down before putting the food down and stood between them and the food until they had waited a bit in that lie down position.  That transitioned to them lying down as soon as the pans hit the ground~of their own volition~ and staying there until I said "okay"...after that was reached, I no longer had to stand between them and the food.  Now it's just part of their world and Ben learned it from Jake, so didn't have to be taught this at all by me.


----------



## Kusanar

Beekissed said:


> It snowed last night and the dogs have been in seventh heaven, playing and running in that piddly bit of snow.  It's the first real snow we've had this winter, so they've been deprived.    Even the cats were chasing one another and playing in the snow.
> 
> Got a pic of the dogs this morning as they waited for their food while I was taking snow pics.  This is something I started years ago for Jake, who tends to choke on his food due to eating so fast.  I had read that, if you made them wait for a bit before eating, that it would slow them down a bit...and it worked, so I just kept doing it.  When little Ben came along he just mimicked what Jake did at feeding time and soon surpassed Jake in his speed in lying down and ability to hold the stance for long moments.
> 
> It turned out to be a really nice thing to not be crowded by overeager dogs when I'm dishing out the food and putting it down, so I've continued the practice.  I vary the wait times so they don't anticipate my release...sometimes I don't even require they lie down, sometimes I leave them lying there while I perform little chores nearby, but usually it's just a matter of less than a minute they have to wait.
> 
> I never have to give a command for them to do this and never did....I just waited until they laid down before putting the food down and stood between them and the food until they had waited a bit in that lie down position.  That transitioned to them lying down as soon as the pans hit the ground~of their own volition~ and staying there until I said "okay"...after that was reached, I no longer had to stand between them and the food.  Now it's just part of their world and Ben learned it from Jake, so didn't have to be taught this at all by me.
> 
> View attachment 27205




Ben is certainly making sure that food doesn't run away though!


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## Beekissed

Yes!   Jake is WAY worse than Ben about that, though.  I try to time the release when they are both looking at me and not the food.  A person is supposed to wait until they are lying in a more relaxed position and no longer even looking in the food's direction, but with these two I'd be waiting all day to get there.


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## Latestarter

Ben isn't a pup anymore. He's a handsome adult!


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## Ferguson K

He sure is growing up!


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## Baymule

They are being good, lying down and minding their manners. But their eyes are glued to those pans! LOL


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## Beekissed

Yes...and if I make them wait too long, there will be little ropes of drool left behind on the ground when I tell them it's okay.   

It's all good practice, though, for when I can't do the feeding and someone else has to, like my ol' 82 yr old Ma...she's really little and is easily intimidated by big ol' Ben, so it's nice that they lie down automatically when the food is dished out.


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## babsbag

So making Jake wait for food made him eat more slowly? That is interesting. I have one that is done eating before I even get the the others fed. I have been thinking about getting her a puzzle bowl to slow her down. She has never been told to wait for her food, she isn't pushy about it so I don't really tell her to wait but maybe I can get her to wait a little bit and see if that slows her down.


----------



## Beekissed

babsbag said:


> So making Jake wait for food made him eat more slowly? That is interesting. I have one that is done eating before I even get the the others fed. I have been thinking about getting her a puzzle bowl to slow her down. She has never been told to wait for her food, she isn't pushy about it so I don't really tell her to wait but maybe I can get her to wait a little bit and see if that slows her down.



The longer I make him wait and if I can get him to a calm state where he's not like a spring waiting to spring loose on that food dish, he eats much slower than normal.  Before I was doing this, he would eat so fast he would choke and have to puke up his food and then eat it again.  Quite gross. 

I'd never really had a dog like him before and I think he might have gotten that way from being part of a huge litter that his mother couldn't feed adequately, so there may have been some issues of having to eat fast in order to get enough to eat.   When I brought him home, his manner of eating spurred my older female GP mix to eat faster too...before that she would just work on her food all day long, but when he arrived, she started gulping her food too....probably to keep him from eating it if she left any behind. 

I honestly think Ben would be an all day food snacker if Jake was not around, wolfing down his meals like a maniac.  Ben has slowed down on his eating and is being far more casual about it all than he was as a pup.  Jake will never be a casual eater, so making him wait has been the only thing I've found that will at least slow him down enough to keep him from choking and puking.  So far it's working pretty well.

Another thing that helps is using a dog food that has smaller bits instead of larger.  Found that one out by accident when I switched dog food and found out it was the size of puppy kibble...and it actually slowed Jake down more.  Guess it took longer to get all those little morsels and eat them than just shoveling all the big stuff into his gob and swallowing without actually chewing.


----------



## Baymule

I wish my dogs would eat their food fast! This morning we watched out the back window as the sheep piled in on Paris's food from last night. My husband went out and ran them off, _then_ Paris decided that she wanted it. We then watched the "dance" between dog, sheep and dog food. She gobbled her food while keeping an eye on the slowly creeping sheep. When they got too close she lunged and barked, they ran, she started eating again and they started creeping again. We were laughing so hard! Over and over and over. Finally she laid down next to her bowl, we sat down and finished our coffee, but I bet in the end, the sheep won and ate the rest of her dog food.


----------



## Beekissed

That's EXACTLY how Lucy would eat....lunging at the waiting sheep as they creep ever closer!  Every day,same ritual....sheep weren't really scared by it or they would never have attempted the jaws of death, but there they were at feeding time every day.  Poor Lucy had sheep and chickens on one side and Jake eating faster than a piranha on the other...and her with her worn down teeth, trying to eat faster than she likes to do.  

Comical but kinda sad at the same time.    Finally switched her over to homemade dog food that didn't appeal to the sheep, something soft and full of meat and rice and such that she could eat well with those old teeth.  That just left the chickens and Jake to contend with.


----------



## Bruce

Maybe Paris needs a "safe from sheep" place to eat!


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## Baymule

Bruce said:


> Maybe Paris needs a "safe from sheep" place to eat!


I have closed the gate to keep them out, but she was eating good, so left it open. So naturally she decides to be picky..... LOL


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## babsbag

3 of my dogs eat where there are no goats to take  the food and the other one gives them a piece of his mind if they get close. The goats have learned to leave the dish alone, even if he leaves it. 

I will start working on the waiting today. Wish me luck, this girl knows "sit" and that is the end of her formal training.


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## Ferguson K

We made a jump through for the girls. They're smart enough and big enough to jump in and out to eat.

Hole at one end in pasture, food at other where we pour it out.


----------



## Beekissed

Ben snuggles a cat while balancing a tiny chicken on his nose...he's growing in his talents.  


 
He's seriously NOT amused....he was told to get OFF my lap and go lie down!  Note the look of injured feelings...he is so good at turning on that face.


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## Baymule

I hope you gave "that face" a great big hug!


----------



## Beekissed

Bay, I'm always giving that face a big hug...could be why he's so needy.  I really need to work on that whole getting up in your face every time someone sits down.  He just has to be right up on you...he'd get right in my lap if I let him.  

We've had beautiful warm weather....spring has sprung early this year, it seems.  Me and the grandgirl was out moving wood chips to muddy areas of animal high traffic zones on the place.  Both dogs have to be right there in the middle of things most of the time but eventually they will go lie down and wait.  

I think Ben has reached his adult size this winter...he's filled out, gotten faster and more muscular, and has leveled off in his eating.  He's still a quiet dog, which is a blessing to use here...we so love our silent nights.  We'll see how it goes when the animals really start moving more as spring approaches.  

I still need to work with him on things like "go lay down" or "stay"...I keep thinking I'll have time to do it in this season or the next, etc., but then months go by and I've not worked with him at all.  Just breeze right past him as I do chores and such.


----------



## Beekissed

Ben gets lovin' from one of his cats....both cats go to Ben for affection way more often than they seek out a human for it.


----------



## Baymule

Aww....Bee, your dogs, chickens and cats all look so happy and peaceful. Ben is surveying his kingdom. LOL


----------



## Beekissed

They all seem very content here, that's for sure.  It's a wonderful thing to see them wondering around on the green grass....or lying down sleeping on it.  

Ben is getting too fluffy, need to put him on a diet.  The chubby cat in the pic is just pregnant, so her "fluff" will soon be less.


----------



## Beekissed

Don't know that I've ever had another dog that does this, but for some reason Ben wants to lie down immediately on anything we are currently working on or using.  Mom was getting ready to cut this piece of lattice for a project but as soon as she laid it down to go get tools, Ben claimed it and wouldn't move for her...I had to call him off it.  



 

He does this with plastic, tarps, cardboard, blankets...anything that we are working with of that nature, he will quickly get on it and doesn't want to get up.  I'll be dragging a tarp behind me and he will try to step on it and stand on it so I can't move it.  



 



 

Anybody else noticed this in their LGD breeds?


----------



## frustratedearthmother

He's just tryin to help!  Holding it down, dontcha know?  

I haven't had one of mine do this - but Cowboy has a new trick.  He tries to push everyone around with his butt, lol.  He will literally lean on you so hard with his rear end that if you move - he'll almost fall over!  

These silly dogs!  They are unlike anything else.  Gotta love 'em!


----------



## Beekissed

Definitely a quirky dog!  I expect this will only increase as he ages.


----------



## Baymule

Paris will squat and pee on things to mark it as "hers" leading to exasperation on my part as she pees all over the hay I just put out for the lambs that are in her care...... 

Trip will lay on my feet. He has laid on things I was working on, but will get off if I ask him to.


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## Latestarter

Mel likes to stand in front of me and block me from wherever I may be trying to go. He'll lean into me so heavily that I have to be real careful he doesn't knock me off my feet. No idea what he's trying to protect me from, but I constantly have to push him out of my way so I can get anywhere.   Still love him to death, even if he is a bit of a dork.


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## Mike CHS

Completely off topic but your avatar is adorable.


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## Beekissed

Thank you!  That's one of my grandgirls, my first one.   And she is as sweet as she looks, which always amazes me!  I raised 3 boys, so I was in for a big surprise with little girls and how much sweeter and more laid back they are.  

If I say "MOVE!!!" to Ben once a day, I say it a million....he wants to stand right in front of me as I move back and forth doing chores.  Finally I'll say it like I am going to skin him and turn his hide into a rug and he gets the picture and will go lie down in a huff, with hurt looks darting my way every few seconds.


----------



## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> Thank you! That's one of my grandgirls, my first one. And she is as sweet as she looks, which always amazes me! I raised 3 boys, so I was in for a big surprise with little girls and how much sweeter and more laid back they are.




LOL I always find the boys way more laid back and let things roll...


----------



## Beekissed

We are having a thunderstorm and Ben is wearing his thundershirt for the first time. At first he started to pace like he always does, with his mouth drawn back and that panic look on his face but it got slower, then slower. 

Then he just walked slowly through the yard, looking towards the house occasionally...for some reason, he wants to be with me when this all happens, so he usually barks at the house and such in between pacing. 

Instead of staying out in the rain, running back and forth in a panic, he is now up under shelter like a normal dog would be. And he's lying down! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





The shirt barely fit him, though it was the largest size they had...he looks like he's wearing his little brother's shirt. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Will continue to give progress reports on the thundershirt as we go along.


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## Bruce

That is great Bee!


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## Baymule

never heard of a thundershirt....how does it work? Pictures of Ben sporting his new duds?


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## babsbag

One of my LGDs is afraid of loud noises and goes into hiding but no outward signs of panic so I let her be.  My Border Collies on the other hand are going to bark that thunder right out of the sky. They run back and forth like crazy dogs and bark bark bark bark bark !!!!!  I won't say that they are afraid of it but they sure get worked up. I HATE it when a storm comes through in the middle of the night.


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## mysunwolf

babsbag said:


> One of my LGDs is afraid of loud noises and goes into hiding but no outward signs of panic so I let her be.  My Border Collies on the other hand are going to bark that thunder right out of the sky. They run back and forth like crazy dogs and bark bark bark bark bark !!!!!  I won't say that they are afraid of it but they sure get worked up. I HATE it when a storm comes through in the middle of the night.



Oh boy, my border collie does this too! We joke that she is telling the big, loud dog in the sky that she is big and scary too.  She gets really worked up about it, even with our calming training. If she ever gets unreasonable about it, I'll be sure to try this "thunder shirt," I've never seen one in action before.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> never heard of a thundershirt....how does it work? Pictures of Ben sporting his new duds?



I'll post a pic of it soon!  It's supposed to snug them up like a swaddled baby and give them a feeling of comfort while they go through the anxiety inducing moment like loud noises, riding in cars, etc.  The reviews on them were impressive enough for me to consider it as an option for him, as he seems to be getting worse with his anxiety levels when there is thunder or gun shots(there will always be these triggers here, so he is going to have to learn to calm down on those or he won't be good for anything but holding down a couch for someone~not me, of course).


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## goatgurl

dstr#4 has a great dane that is afraid of thunder and I had suggested she try a thunder shirt for him.  i'll have to tell her how well it worked for ben.  still waiting for pictures... hint hint


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## Beekissed

goatgurl said:


> dstr#4 has a great dane that is afraid of thunder and I had suggested she try a thunder shirt for him.  i'll have to tell her how well it worked for ben.  still waiting for pictures... hint hint



I've got a couple of pics of that first storm day but they aren't very good....was kind of waiting to get some better ones, but here they are.  

This thing barely fits him across the chest and it's not quite long enough through the torso, so the XL is not really XL in my book.  For a Great Dane, that doesn't have all that fur, it just might fit but they have that deep, deep chest, so she might want to look for an XXL to get a good fit.


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## Baymule

A thunder shirt. Who woulda thunk it? It's giving Ben a hug.


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## goatgurl

I sure hope he gets over his anxiety 'cause he's such a good boy and is becoming a great dog.


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## Beekissed

I've been putting it on him when it's supposed to thunderstorm but have not been able to observe this reaction to it these past few days.  I'm getting ready to leave for town for a bit and it may thunderstorm while I'm gone, so I've put it on him and tied him up for good measure.  

My boys will be coming out this week and I hope they bring their guns so I can put it on him for gunfire.  I want to see how he reacts to it when he's wearing his shirt and if it seems to help him.  We live out in the boonies, so gunfire is sort of the lay of the land hereabouts...a dog that spooks across his electric containment at a single shot from a .22 a half mile distant is a problem.  Come hunting season he'll have to be tied both day and night if he can't resolve his fears.  

Poor Ben is a city dog living a country dog's life, I'm afraid.


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## Baymule

I hope he can resolve his fears. Mine don't like thunder or gunfire either, but being fenced in, they can't run away.


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## Goat Whisperer

Curious- did Ben act this way before he was neutered? When did this behavior start?


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## Southern by choice

Studies show that males after neuter seem to develop fear of thunderstorms. What was interesting is that it didn't seem to matter at what age the dog was neutered and they did not see the same results with spayed females.

One of our Pyr pups was fine- the new owners neutered him at around 2ish.... now he is terrified of the storms.... he gets out of his field and runs to the house, after the storm he goes back to his field.
They knew the stats and the risk but opted to neuter anyway. 

I have noticed over the years many pyrs (intact) develop  issues with storms. However there is no known cause of why a seemingly stable dog suddenly develops this. The magic age seems to be between 3-4.


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## Beekissed

Goat Whisperer said:


> Curious- did Ben act this way before he was neutered? When did this behavior start?



No, he didn't at all.  The first time happened when the boys had set off some tannerite at the back of our land...it sounds a lot like dynamite.  VERY loud.  But we had had thunderstorms since Ben was neutered and he never reacted to it, nor did he react to gunfire during hunting season....just started with that much louder noise of tannerite and now thunder, even a single distant .22 shot, will make him anxious but he only crosses his boundary if I'm not around when he experiences the anxiety.  



Southern by choice said:


> Studies show that males after neuter seem to develop fear of thunderstorms. What was interesting is that it didn't seem to matter at what age the dog was neutered and they did not see the same results with spayed females.
> 
> One of our Pyr pups was fine- the new owners neutered him at around 2ish.... now he is terrified of the storms.... he gets out of his field and runs to the house, after the storm he goes back to his field.
> They knew the stats and the risk but opted to neuter anyway.
> 
> I have noticed over the years many pyrs (intact) develop  issues with storms. However there is no known cause of why a seemingly stable dog suddenly develops this. The magic age seems to be between 3-4.



Very interesting!  I'd never heard that before.  Is that just with these LGD breeds then?  I've had neutered males of other breeds that never had a problem.  

That's just a strange thing.  If I had known that I might not have gotten him neutered.


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## Southern by choice

No, not just LGD's. I find it interesting as well. 

Years ago we had something happen that was really bizarre- supposedly it was dynamite being used on stumps. 
Funny thing is no one knew anyone blowing up stumps. 
There were explosions 2x in the evening for several days- same time... all I can say is the whole family thought a bomb had gone off or had been dropped.
These explosions shook the whole house, it was actually pretty freaky.
My DH id former military and he even said Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Years ago we lived by a base that did lots of artillery practice and still nothing like this sound.

All the dogs and goats and well every animal and humans were pretty freaked out. 
Truly a sound I've never heard.
Still a mystery.
When they started up weeks later D did go over the fence and we had to lock him up. All my dogs bark at stuff like that but not this sound. 

The dogs don't panic and are use to gunshots but when someone is shooting their AR (I think it is the AR) D gets ancy... I do wonder though if it has more to do with when we had a gale-nado (not official tornado) and when it ripped through the entire roof was ripped off the Kikos shelter and came crashing down on them. The goats nor Callie or D would sleep in the shelter for a long time. They eventually got over it.

Our friends had loggers come in (they didn't know loggers were coming in) and literally right next to their fenceline they logged. Their dogs freaked out. Have you seen those massive machines?
Eventually the dogs got over it but they were real sensitive to LOUD noises after that.

I do think circumstances can cause some issues but given time it works out - some people coddle the animal though and it gets worse. 

Association is pretty powerful in dogs.

Many moons ago there was a dog that was a great little dog ( I groomed the dog in show coat) this dog however if it got out would go for tires. One time it slipped past it's owner and well - I guess you can imagine- when it was rush to the hospital it was in shock.... we all knew this little guy and fought for him... he did eventually come around but he associated the trauma NOT with the car but the Hospital. 
It was so bad that eventually we all agreed it would be better to try another AH. He did fine. 
Yet same scenario with another dog and the dog eventually came round.


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## Beekissed

Had an unexpected thunderstorm yesterday and when the thunder rolled, Ben just laid there...glanced in the direction of the thunder, but showed no anxiety whatsoever.  That's a positive change!  No pacing, no anxious panting, nada.  

Hallelujah!  Still have yet to test the Th-shirt under gunfire but will have to apply it for the 4th, for sure.


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## Beekissed

Ben wore his shirt during the 4th, while we were away from home that day.  Today we are having thunderstorms and he's acting quite calm, lying calmly and relaxed...and he's NOT wearing the shirt.  I think that thundershirt is working!

Have yet to test it on close gunfire, but will do so soon.


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## Bruce




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## Beekissed

Right now we are having a thunderstorm, thunder rolling, wind blowing and off and on torrential rains....and Ben is lying up there on his side, sleeping through it, right along side Jake. Mom said she was out there earlier and heard several gunshots...could have been fireworks...but said Ben just lay there and slept through them. 



















 And NOT wearing his thundershirt!!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I praise God for all of that, as I had prayed for Ben and his fear, on how to keep him contained here and safe, etc. I think God is answering prayer right now. It was the Holy Spirit Who had put the idea of the thundershirt in my mind in the first place, so all glory to God as Ben gets over his fears.


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## frustratedearthmother

Great news!


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## goatgurl

i'm so happy for you and ben.  truly wonderful that the shirt is working. and yes bee, God is good but you knew that already.


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## Beekissed

Yes, I surely did!  

Just got to see why I added Ben to the workforce, once again. Rarely do these dogs bark in the day time...I can pretty much count on one hand the times I've heard it. Ben let out an aggressive bark and streaked for the back of their boundary...Jake was across the yard but ran to catch up as hard as he could. 

Of course, I was thinking it was some big predator and I was going to finally see what they were worth and what they were up against. Couldn't see a THING up there. But, Ben was standing on alert, then rose to his hind legs, wheeled about on those two legs and ran down the hill barking up into the air!!!! I briefly saw a brown form flying in front of him but they went behind the shed and I couldn't see anything else. All the chickens were on alert but had not run for cover, nor had the rooster put out an alarm. 

Ben got cut by that owl last fall, so it could very well have created a good thing there. Could make him more aggressive towards aerial preds. I'm LOVING this!!!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	










Thanking the Lord for this good dog He brought to me! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Thanking the Lord for helping Ben get over his fears too....I watched him lay quietly as several shots echoed over the land a day or so ago. Couldn't tell if those were shots or fireworks, but it sounded like gunfire enough that he should have gotten anxious. Nothing...just relaxed! 

In the back of my mind I've been dreading that part of fall after what happened last year~lost a good few cockerels and a few hens had to be killed after some predation from a pair of Great Horned Owls that were hunting our clearing for a period of time~ but this year I've resolved to let God handle it all and not get fearful or stressed about danger to the flock. God's will be done, not mine. Could be that things will be much different this fall...especially with a dog that now hates aerial predators.


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## Beekissed

Another good reason to train your LGD on excessive barking:  http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/31/court-oregon-couple-must-have-their-dogs-vocal-cords-cut.html


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## Baymule

A dog that never shuts up is a pain. Make the dog shut up or take it in the house. Cutting vocal cords is a terrible punishment. I had a friend with a beautiful Irish setter that never shut up. We lived back to back and I grew to hate that dog. Somebody else must have hated that dog also, they drove by and shot it with bird shot. The dog survived, but funny enough, it's vocal cords would only squeak after that, with the volume turned WAY down. Friend was very angry, I was happy.

Our dogs will shut up if we tap on the window. If it is really "something" they keep barking and we go investigate.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> A dog that never shuts up is a pain. Make the dog shut up or take it in the house. Cutting vocal cords is a terrible punishment. I had a friend with a beautiful Irish setter that never shut up. We lived back to back and I grew to hate that dog. Somebody else must have hated that dog also, they drove by and shot it with bird shot. The dog survived, but funny enough, it's vocal cords would only squeak after that, with the volume turned WAY down. Friend was very angry, I was happy.
> 
> Our dogs will shut up if we tap on the window. If it is really "something" they keep barking and we go investigate.



I agree....mine do the same.  If it's just entertainment barking, they will shut up and it will be silent the rest of the night.  If there really is something more than a deer roaming out there, I'll hear a different barking tone and rhythm and they will repeat the barking...seldom does that happen, as I can tell the difference between their barking and don't correct them if it's a legitimate warning. 

Seldom is it something so urgent that I investigate, now that Jake has a partner...but if both dogs are barking in an urgent manner and that doesn't subside after a few minutes, I'll make an appearance up in their area, talk to them, investigate the direction in which they are barking.


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## Beekissed

Ben continues to do a great job as a chicken dog, warding off predators on foot and in the air.  He's also a gentle and good companion to the aging Jake, as well as gentle with my grandgirls, being patient with their pats, kisses and little girl squeals. 

He's learning to be very calm around them, approaching them more delicately and with his head down, like Jake is teaching him....down and away from their faces, which makes them feel safer.  Took him awhile on that one, but he's finally learned it.


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## Mike CHS

That picture and caption is meant to be a classic.


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## Bruce




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## Baymule

Ben has grown up. What a good dog. I love it that he is so gentle with your grand daughters. He is so sweet!


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## goatgurl

ben is such a good boy and has grown into a great dog.  that picture is priceless.


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## Beekissed

He is a big sweety, that's for sure.  I love it how on guard he is, though....nothing gets past him that's a threat.  And, he stands down when I say to do so....his mother did not act like that, but his GP father did.  Very laid back once he had given the alarm and his humans had acknowledged it.  

His mother(Anatolian/Maremma) barked aggressively, running back and forth on the fence line, with her owners and me standing 2 ft. away.  They didn't correct her and she never settled down one minute I was there....I'm glad Ben's not like that.  

A friend visited the other evening, a stranger to the dogs, and Ben barked at him as he pulled up and even after I came out to greet him, but settled down right away when I told him it was okay.  I love that....can't STAND it when a dog barks its fool head off when there's no obvious threat going on.  

He still steals stuff from me when I'm choring, though....he sneaked off with a pair of work gloves the other day.  Doesn't chew them up, just steals them.  He's a funny dog.


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## goatgurl

that's so funny, ben is still a kleptomaniac.  marco, the newish maremma I got is kind of a sneak thief too.  my neighbor left a sack full of egg cartons here the other day and by the time I got home he had them scattered up and down the driveway.  made me laugh but at the same time I wasn't amused.  yesterday he stole JJ the English shepherd's stuffed lamb.  she had carried it outside and he found it and started shaking and tossing it around.  I laughed but JJ was not amused.  she can be stingy with her things sometimes so I made her share.  not a happy girl.


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## Beekissed

Ben is now coming up on his 4th year in July and I wanted to update his profile, so to speak.   

He lost his working partner this fall to old age and that seemed to mature him a lot.  He's still afraid of gunfire but doesn't run for the wild blue yonder when he hears it, but will merely come to the house and stay there until we come to put him back in the boundary.  He's lost a lot of puppy traits like chewing up things and is a sound and sober working dog...I love his work ethics a lot.  

He's quiet, like my old dog Jake was, but vocal at predators, stray dogs and strangers...but not excessively so.  He doesn't stand there and bark all night as I'd never allow that, so training on barking has been successful.   I'm going to train on gunfire soon and I'll post here about the results, good or bad.  

He's going to be getting a few sheep soon, so that will give him a bit of companionship and also more work to do.  I also hope to break him to cart work this year so he can work alongside me more...he loves to be with me while I work.  We go on daily walks and he has excellent recall, responds to even eye signals if you give him a few seconds to get your meaning, has remained true to everything he's been trained on and is courageous and true.  

I like it that he remains on alert to danger even when called down...we had some guys out here cutting the right of way for the electric company and he did his initial barking, I called him down and he laid there the rest of the day, facing the crew, ears alert and with that tension in his body that said he would spring to action any time he saw any overt threat.  

Jake, on the other hand, grew tired of the ongoing activity and finally laid down for a nap.   Ben watched all day long.  It was funny when a guy asked if the dogs would bite and I put on a straight face and said, "Only if I tell them to."  It was kind of a private joke, but with Ben it could very well be true...I know he wouldn't hesitate to intervene if I were in trouble.  And he guards with a level head, with a ready response to my commands, so I know he's thinking all the while, not merely reacting.  

We've grown closer since Jake died, especially since walking each morning, and have a great bond going on.  He's been a great investment, in both money and time spent on training, and I'll be interested to see how he responds to his sheep.  Training on those will start day one, with daily instruction of both parties.  

I'll post the progress of his continued education here.  Love this dog!!!  I can't believe he's 3 and a half years old already.  

Some recent pics of Ben.  I don't know his wt. but I'd estimate 90-100 lbs of lean muscle and athleticism.


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## Baymule

Thanks for the update. Ben has grown into a wonderful dog. I saw that sentence about getting a few sheep. I am happy for you, I know how much you have wanted sheep.


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## Beekissed

Ben's got sheep!     He wants to be friends but they ain't havin' it.    The dominant one is pretty aggressive towards him and will take a run at him and try to butt him while he is merely standing innocently by.  I finally got a chance to rebuke her for it and showed him support, praised him, and let him know I had his back.  

That seemed to be all he needed to finally take a stand and not put up with that behavior any longer.  This morning he finally stood up for himself and gave the ol' biddy a verbal correction of his own.  I'm hoping she won't need anything further to get the message, as he's naturally a pretty docile dog.   He knows his place....she just needs to learn hers. 

Hope to get him a working partner this weekend...a pup, another of the same breed mix that Jake was, Lab/Border Collie cross.  Ben is no good on small predators...can find them, corner them, tree them and all but refuses to dispatch them.  Jake was death on those and I really miss him...I've had possum stealing me blind on eggs this year.


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## Baymule

Ben and sheep. Dreams really do come true! Ben has a good teacher, the sheep may not know it, but they do too.


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## RollingAcres

Ben is a handsome fella!


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## Beekissed

RollingAcres said:


> Ben is a handsome fella!



Thank you!   It's kind of funny and also comforting, though, that so many of this breed look almost identical...kind of tells you how strong their traits really are.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> Ben and sheep. Dreams really do come true! Ben has a good teacher, the sheep may not know it, but they do too.



Thank you, Bay.


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## Beekissed

This morning we had a role reversal, wherein Ben kept coming into the sheep's pen as I was feeding them(hoping to snatch some of their food) and the Shine was trying to defend her food.   Ben snarled at her and I gave him a reprimand and ordered him out of the pen, while Shine stomped her foot and chased after him as he left.  

Just working out the personal space boundaries here.  

Both parties now have the idea that each are allowed to have their own personal space without being attacked or pressured by anyone.  

The sheep, being the intelligent and intuitive creatures they are, took that defense of their space as one more chink in the bond we are developing....and tried to follow Ben, Mom and I on our walk this morning and that was AFTER they had eaten already.   They followed us until their comfort level of being away from their shelter and normal pasture started to scare them a little, then they ran on back to their safety zone.  

That was the first time they have followed me that far AFTER they've had a good little tucker.   I think they are starting to see that someone is in charge here and it's not them nor the dog.  Sheep seem to naturally like to be with the one who can protect them the most and these ol' girls are starting to figure that out.  I love seeing this in action!!!!

I had Mom feed them for the first time this morning, had her touch them while they were eating, put her hands in their feed as they were eating, etc.   They need to see her as part of the system here if ever she should have to move them here or there, for any given reason that I'm not here and cannot do so.  

Ain't sheepin' fun?


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## Beekissed

@Baymule ,here's a pic of the sheep, on the day I got them and then 20 days later.  I can see a little improvement in their conditioning in the after pics and that should improve more and more before breeding time.  Both had just weaned off lambs, the older one(brown) had weaned off triplets and the black one, twins.  

The day they arrived...



 

 

 

 

Twenty days after arrival....



 

 

I'll have time to put more conditioning in on them until I breed them in November, but for now they are coming along slowly and gaining more sleekness...and also are becoming less wild.  I'm able to touch them more while they are eating and they are gaining familiarity with everything that goes on here.  

They and Ben seem to have come to an uneasy understanding wherein they all give one another the appropriate space.  I'm hoping that moves towards companionship down the road.  

Getting Ben a work partner today, a breed mix the same as Jake was, and hope that this will be a good partnership.  I doubt it will have any herding abilities, as the Lab/BC mix usually has the Lab traits as the dominant ones but it sure would be kind of neat if the BC traits came out a little when it comes to the sheep.  Most of all I hope it has a high prey drive, like Labs do, when it comes to varmints that bother the chickens and coop.  

Another pup to train, right in the middle of my busiest time....should be fun!


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## Mike CHS

That is a lot of progress for 20 days.


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## Baymule

They sure look a lot better! You have some good grass, my bet is that it is rich in minerals. They are getting the best of care, they may not know it, but they just hit easy street. They got the best Sheep Momma ever!


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## Baymule

They sure look a lot better! You have some good grass, my bet is that it is rich in minerals. They are getting the best of care, they may not know it, but they just hit easy street. They got the best Sheep Momma ever!


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## Baymule

Oops.


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## Beekissed

Baymule said:


> They sure look a lot better! You have some good grass, my bet is that it is rich in minerals. They are getting the best of care, they may not know it, but they just hit easy street. They got the best Sheep Momma ever!



Aw, thank you, Bay!!  You exaggerate greatly, my friend!    I don't know all that much about sheep or much of anything else, but I try real hard...guess that's going to have to make up for the lack of knowledge, huh?  

 The grass here was pretty bad when I moved back home to be with Mom, but over the years I've planted quite a bit of clover and tried to keep her from scalping the meadow so much and so often so that the good grasses could reseed.  This was an old pine grove, so the soil is pretty acidic in places still, and the only thing growing on those places is moss.  We are slowly but surely culling the pines and leaving the deciduous trees, opening up some areas to more sun and more growth of the better trees.  We'll leave some smaller, low growing pines in the sheep's paddock, as conifers are good for self deworming.  

I've been liming those mossy places pretty hard this season to kill the moss and I fetched 14 rotten FREE round bales to roll out in the places with poor grass.  I noticed that when I spread out hay up by the dog house area last fall that the place sprouted really lush and tall ladino clover this spring...and that was in the shade in an over impacted area of soil.  

So, figured I'd get some good quality hay that was for free for mulch this season and God provided 14 bales!!!  Why buy seed when there's tons of seed in these bales and the bale itself provides the fertilization and mulching of the seeds?  As long as it's good clean hay~and it is!~then what grows should be decent graze.  I roll it out in those poorly places and the chickens are spreading it for me...can't beat that.  

I'm hoping that the sheep themselves will also lend a hand in improving their pasture when I can rotate paddocks.  Each paddock will also include some wooded area that have plenty of browse available...honeysuckle, multiflora rose, and even autumn olive(the bane of all the farmers around here...and the sheep LOVE them), as well as small saplings that are tender and young.  One paddock encompasses the orchard~those trees will get a chicken wire wrap to avoid any stripping.   Could be the small amount of arsenic in the seeds of green apples that fall will also aid in eliminating worms naturally.  

I'm tapering off the feed I gave them to get them trained to the pen and to the shepherd, as their poop indicates their diet is much too rich now that they are out on the grass.  I'm getting logs instead of raisins.  

Time to see which one will fatten and do well on just grass and browse only diet...my vote is on the younger sheep.  Both came here a solid 3 on the FAMACHA scale and she had better condition than the old girl...that could just be an age thing, though.  The elder fed one more lamb this season than did the younger, that could factor in also.


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## Baymule

We’ll you know us old gals sag here and there and don’t have quite the snap back we used to. LOL LOL Go a little easy on your old Sheep!


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## Sheepshape

Sheep fatten pretty easily, and your sheep look in pretty good condition to me. If those girls are going into an area with saplings whey will destroy them....they're partial to small trees. Good thinking about the trunks of fruit trees, some sheep are terrible bark strippers and will kill trees quickly. As for the apples....they may or may not eat them.....some love 'em, others leave 'em. With regards to worming, I'd use a proprietary wormer once and then they probably won't need another worming if they are grass that is 'new' to sheep.Chicory is a natural wormer for sheep, but not all sheep like the taste.
With regards to pasture sward height, sheep prefer grass 3-4 inches tall, the new stuff which has grown after topping. there's less nourishment in tall grass with seed heads, so topping the heads will allow the grass to re-grow to a height ideal for your girls.
Oh and 'log poo' is the norm for sheep on grass.....when sheep are turned out onto fresh pasture after a winter on dried stuff, they may produce greenish 'cow pats' for a while!
The old girl may well the first to fatten, though they tend to get thinner again when really old (by which I'm talking  8-10 plus).

My sheep are utterly unafraid of dogs as my elderly Border Collie was never trained to 'work' them. Some of them think nothing of chasing the poor old fellow. Hopefully you'll be able to establish some kind of order!


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## Bruce

Beekissed said:


> This was an old pine grove, so the soil is pretty acidic in places still, and the only thing growing on those places is moss.


Great place for blueberries!


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## Beekissed

Bruce said:


> Great place for blueberries!



You would think so, wouldn't you?  But...alas...no.  I tried and they never grew at all...got some kind of fungal thing and all the leaves dropped off.


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## Bruce




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## Beekissed

Sheepshape said:


> Sheep fatten pretty easily, and your sheep look in pretty good condition to me. If those girls are going into an area with saplings whey will destroy them....they're partial to small trees. Good thinking about the trunks of fruit trees, some sheep are terrible bark strippers and will kill trees quickly. As for the apples....they may or may not eat them.....some love 'em, others leave 'em. With regards to worming, I'd use a proprietary wormer once and then they probably won't need another worming if they are grass that is 'new' to sheep.Chicory is a natural wormer for sheep, but not all sheep like the taste.
> With regards to pasture sward height, sheep prefer grass 3-4 inches tall, the new stuff which has grown after topping. there's less nourishment in tall grass with seed heads, so topping the heads will allow the grass to re-grow to a height ideal for your girls.
> Oh and 'log poo' is the norm for sheep on grass.....when sheep are turned out onto fresh pasture after a winter on dried stuff, they may produce greenish 'cow pats' for a while!
> The old girl may well the first to fatten, though they tend to get thinner again when really old (by which I'm talking  8-10 plus).
> 
> My sheep are utterly unafraid of dogs as my elderly Border Collie was never trained to 'work' them. Some of them think nothing of chasing the poor old fellow. Hopefully you'll be able to establish some kind of order!



We are hoping they DO destroy these saplings, as they are none we would want to grow into trees...just a bunch of trash wood or those growing too close to one another to ever gain size.  

My last sheep didn't have that log poop on grass except in early spring, so with these gals never having the sprinkles since they first came, I'm thinking they are consuming more clover right now than other types of grass.  That's all good but it also indicates their graze is rich enough that I don't need to give any kind of supplementary feed right now other than their regular hay in the self feeder.  

They love the apples, so that's all good...all my sheep have loved apples and will fight the dogs for them, as my dogs love apples too.  

I don't use chemical dewormers on my livestock but do give natural dewormers of my own design...seem to work great. I also have various things in their range that help with natural worm expulsion.  Along with that I feed fermented pumpkins in the winter and a loose mineral mix that seems to help their immune system resist parasites.  Once I get it all going it seems to make for healthy sheep and soil structures here.  This place is definitely new to sheep...or any other livestock besides chickens and ducks.  It hasn't been farmland for almost 100 yrs now.  It's kind of funny because you can see barbed wire and the scars they left on the trees way up high on these trees...tells you how much they've grown since they were used as fencing.  

I hope too to establish a pecking order...right now the sheep think they are at the top of the heap.    Little do they know they are food...and lower on the food chain than the dog.


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## Bruce

Um, trees grow from the top. If that were not the case I wouldn't be finding barbed wire 18" off the ground and 3" deep in a tree. Have to be real careful walking through what was an old fence and "lets pile the rocks from the field here" line. That stuff is ancient, brittle, rusty and still very sharp. Try to bend it and it snaps off instead.


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## Beekissed

Bruce said:


> Um, trees grow from the top. If that were not the case I wouldn't be finding barbed wire 18" off the ground and 3" deep in a tree. Have to be real careful walking through what was an old fence and "lets pile the rocks from the field here" line. That stuff is ancient, brittle, rusty and still very sharp. Try to bend it and it snaps off instead.



Then we have a lot of trees that have linear scarring up high that appear to be just like those with barbed wire scars....wonder what those could be?


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## Bruce

Don't know, that is pretty weird.


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## Baymule

orhanzop said:


> can't think of a better way to relax then setting in the warm autumn sunshine with a giant dog leaning on you and grinning.


Welcome to the forum! Go on over to the new member section and introduce yourself, tell us a little about yourself.


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