# Asking for ideas on how to "manage" coyotes



## soarwitheagles (Dec 24, 2015)

Hi and happy holidays to all!

We live in Central Valley, CA.  We just recently began our adventure with ranching and farming.  We live on a 15+ acre ranch.  Our /neighbors/friends have a large flock of the American Blackbelly sheep.  But they lost 17 baby lambs in 3 weeks to coyotes.

We live about 5 miles from them.  We would like to avoid losing any lambs.  I have only seen one coyote on our ranch.  He was nearly waist high, and each time I saw him, he was moving east to west, in the late afternoon in back of our property, in the forest area.  I have seen lots of evidence of coyote or other predator kills in the back forest area...piles of chicken feathers all the time, etc.  I have also found holes in the ground with evidence of animal activity.  Not sure if it is a coyote den...

Out of absolute necessity, we keep all our chickens in a coop that is completely surrounded by chicken wire.  When a friend gave us 15 free range chickens we thought we would do an "experiment."  Our "experiment" lasted less than two weeks.  Every chicken was brutally killed, often in different manners.  So that could have also been hawks, owls, skunks, possums, etc.

Our new flock of sheep have lots of pregnant ewes.  So we really want to keep out sheep safe now.

Here are some of the specifics that we have done.  Please let me know if there is more that we can do.

1. Installed no climb horse fencing in the areas the ewes will give birth.
2. Will install barbed wire on top of the no climb horse fencing this next week.
3. Will install a photo sensor barn light high up on a pole to light up the entire coral area next week.
4. Installed many, many high definition security cameras with IR and motion detection everywhere throughout the property.  In the event of a coyote taking a lamb, we will be able to see exactly what occurred.
5. Keep a shotgun, handgun, and rifle ready at all times.

Here are some of the suggestions that friends and neighbors have given us:

1. Purchase and include a lama in the flock.
2. Purchase and include an Alpaca in the flock.
3. Purchase and allow to bond a baby herd dog [I would like to avoid this option for now.  One of our neighbor's son's was terrible mauled by a lose herd dog two years ago.  The settlement was $300,000].

Well, that is our situation here now.

Open to any and all suggestions.


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## chiques chicks (Dec 24, 2015)

I'm personally not a fan of barbed wire as a deterrent, no experience, just leery of it. I would use high and low strands of hot wire to deter predators.

Coyote are wary animals. You will probably find the shotgun and handgun of limited use on them due to limited range. A rifle with a good scope is better. Something larger than a .22. More like a .222 or .243 with good range, flat trajectory, and energy.

I'm not sure alpacas are great as protection. Again, no experience with them and have read articles going both ways. I know the local alpaca farms treat them as prey animals, not protection animals. Lamas are better protection animals, as I understand it.

A local friend had a meat duck pen attacked last winter by coyote. They had a four foot fence. With a foot or so of snow on the ground, the coyote simply jumped it. Several nights. A case of "lead poisoning" was their only solution.

SSS.   

(shoot, shovel, shut up, for those who don't know)


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## Southern by choice (Dec 24, 2015)

Welcome to BYH! 

The following are Livestock Guardian Animals.
They are your most effective deterrents.

Donkey
Llama
Livestock Guardian Dog (many breeds)

Alpacas are not guardians, most use a LGD (Dog) to guard alpacas.
There is a difference between a Livestock Guardian dog and a Herd dog and a farm dog.

Since you are not there often I would not recommend a LGD unless already trained. LGD breeds take time, and training and are a very unique animal. They are not like pet/house dogs. Many are very friendly and can be very social however their field is their field. PERIOD.

We have 11 Livestock Guardians (Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherd, and Pyr/Toli crosses)  ... if they come out of their field they will love you to death! (except 2) BUT in their field it is a different story. It is their job.

Again the LGD is not for everyone.

Llamas do well with sheep.

Barbed wire is a bad idea. Hotwire is best. On top, down at the bottom.


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## Latestarter (Dec 24, 2015)

Barbed wire won't stop coyotes, wolves, mountain lions. You'll need hot wire, high and low as mentioned above. Fencing and hot wire should almost always be your first choice. It's a one (long term) time investment, not only to keep the bad critters out, but to keep the good critters in. Keep in mind that a coyote can jump straight up about 4-5 feet if it needs to. After that, you could consider a donkey or llama (less expense for food as they can range with the other livestock) or LGD's. Anywhere you were considering putting barbed wire, you should consider putting hot wire.

@Southern by choice is a LGD guru and there are a number of threads in the livestock guardian forum that you can peruse. There are even some older threads dealing specifically with coyotes... and LGDs. If you are dealing with a pack of predators, a single LGD is NOT your best bet... you'll need 2 or more.

You should also have a good rifle as someone else stated above. All these predators are quite familiar with humans and normally will keep their distance. A shot gun, aside from not being a long range weapon, is NOT a good idea if you're trying to take down one animal in among a bunch of livestock. Chances are you'll end up hitting the livestock as well. A 223 or 243 size caliber will be deadly to the target without as much issues with passing through and killing additional animals on the down range side. If you aren't comfortable/accurate using it, PRACTICE until you are.

The only way/time you might need a handgun would be if you had LGDs in a fight with a group of coyotes and you had to go in and assist from relatively close range. A pack of coyotes can and have killed LGDs, as well as farm dogs, herding dogs, and other farm animals. As a pack they are especially dangerous and deadly.


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## Bossroo (Dec 24, 2015)

My across the street neighbor has 30 ewes, 2 rams, + their lambs.  He has 5 foot wowen wire fence with 2 strands of barbed wire on top and one at the ground.  He has a border collie and now coyote killed Rottwieler ( all he found was it's head and hide ), Doberman Pincher, and 2 very large mongrels. He looses one to 2 dozen lambs and a couple ewes every year.  He tried a gelded donkey with his flock untill he killed a dozen young lambs.  I raised a commercial herd of over 200 ewes and 30 purebred Suffolk ewes ( for range ram sales) with several Border Collies and McNabbs as herders/ guard dogs and I had .222 for SSS. My ranch was in N. Cal. with very low coyote population.  While I lost some to predation, eventually the coyotes paid with their lives.  For 15 acres and living off site...  A no climb fence will not deter a coyote as they will jump it, dig under it, or climb it as their paws are small enough so they can climb that ladder.  Barb wire will not deter a coyote eather.  What I would recommend is at least a 5 ft wowen wire fence, with additional HIGH JOLT  wire ( enough to send you flying 10' through the air and well posted with "electrified fence "  at all 4 sides  and every 20- 30 feet of the property  as a defence against any dumb person or rustler in case of a law suit ) at the bottom and one in the middle , and 2 at the top.   ALSO ... spray Roundup ( in spite of some that have a problem with herbicides/ pesticides as it is a very good insurance  agaisnt losses of livestock )  all around the fence line at least 3 feet on both sides of the fence to kill ALL vegetation which will help you to identify any predator activity much easier as well as to keep track of any sagging of the electric wire and weeds shorting out the wire.  Lights and security cameras will help with identifying areas to keep a good eye out for predators and/ or rustlers so that you can take extra precautions.  . As for lamas, I have heard good as well as bad reports on them.   A .222 or .243 would be my choice as a handgun or shotgun are better suited for short range only. Alpacas are a waste of time and resourses.  A couple of well trained LGDs would be an asset. Again, post the property with guard dog signs for any legal defence if needed.  Have fun !


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 25, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> My across the street neighbor has 30 ewes, 2 rams, + their lambs.  He has 5 foot wowen wire fence with 2 strands of barbed wire on top and one at the ground.  He has a border collie and now coyote killed Rottwieler ( all he found was it's head and hide ), Doberman Pincher, and 2 very large mongrels. He looses one to 2 dozen lambs and a couple ewes every year.  He tried a gelded donkey with his flock untill he killed a dozen young lambs.  I raised a commercial herd of over 200 ewes and 30 purebred Suffolk ewes ( for range ram sales) with several Border Collies and McNabbs as herders/ guard dogs and I had .222 for SSS. My ranch was in N. Cal. with very low coyote population.  While I lost some to predation, eventually the coyotes paid with their lives.  For 15 acres and living off site...  A no climb fence will not deter a coyote as they will jump it, dig under it, or climb it as their paws are small enough so they can climb that ladder.  Barb wire will not deter a coyote eather.  What I would recommend is at least a 5 ft wowen wire fence, with additional HIGH JOLT  wire ( enough to send you flying 10' through the air and well posted with "electrified fence "  at all 4 sides  and every 20- 30 feet of the property  as a defence against any dumb person or rustler in case of a law suit ) at the bottom and one in the middle , and 2 at the top.   ALSO ... spray Roundup ( in spite of some that have a problem with herbicides/ pesticides as it is a very good insurance  agaisnt losses of livestock )  all around the fence line at least 3 feet on both sides of the fence to kill ALL vegetation which will help you to identify any predator activity much easier as well as to keep track of any sagging of the electric wire and weeds shorting out the wire.  Lights and security cameras will help with identifying areas to keep a good eye out for predators and/ or rustlers so that you can take extra precautions.  . As for lamas, I have heard good as well as bad reports on them.   A .222 or .243 would be my choice as a handgun or shotgun are better suited for short range only. Alpacas are a waste of time and resourses.  A couple of well trained LGDs would be an asset. Again, post the property with guard dog signs for any legal defence if needed.  Have fun !



Bossroos,

Thank you for sharing.  It appears as if these coyotes can be quite vicious!

Ok, I will head to TS later this week and check out the various HIGH JOLT electric wire fencing.  I will also look for the warning signs and we already have gallons of the Roundup.

I hear you on the .223.  We have a couple of the Ruger Ranch .223's and will keep them ready too.

Thanks again for sharing.


Southern by choice said:


> Welcome to BYH!
> 
> The following are Livestock Guardian Animals.
> They are your most effective deterrents.
> ...



Southern by choice,

Excellent post with lots of great into.  Thank you.  Wow, you sure have a lot of dogs there!  You must have a lot of livestock.

For now, we were hoping to try other methods than the LGD/livestock guardians.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 25, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> Barbed wire won't stop coyotes, wolves, mountain lions. You'll need hot wire, high and low as mentioned above. Fencing and hot wire should almost always be your first choice. It's a one (long term) time investment, not only to keep the bad critters out, but to keep the good critters in. Keep in mind that a coyote can jump straight up about 4-5 feet if it needs to. After that, you could consider a donkey or llama (less expense for food as they can range with the other livestock) or LGD's. Anywhere you were considering putting barbed wire, you should consider putting hot wire.
> 
> @Southern by choice is a LGD guru and there are a number of threads in the livestock guardian forum that you can peruse. There are even some older threads dealing specifically with coyotes... and LGDs. If you are dealing with a pack of predators, a single LGD is NOT your best bet... you'll need 2 or more.
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing more accurate info.  Yes, I hear you on the .223's.  LGD's are not an option at the present time.  I suppose the electric fence, vigilance, and using firearms are the options we will start with.  I plan on going to the DFGW soon and inquiring about all legal options.

I also hear you on using the correct weaponry.  My wife and I have been more well trained than most law enforcement officers and military, so we feel confident [but not proud or arrogant] that we can select and use the correct weapon for the appropriate circumstance.  The reason I included shotgun and handgun in the list was because earlier in the year I was attached by wild dogs [pitbull] at close quarters.  I was caught by myself in the back forest area and the darn pitbull would not let up.  If I moved backward, he came at me.  If I moved forward, we would put his head down and back up only a few inches.  My preference was the shotgun with the handgun for back up purposes.  To be honest with you, I am not sure how bold these coyotes might become.  It sure would be nice if they do not come around at all, but if they do, the Ranch Ruger .223 are incredibly accurate [1 inch POI] up to and beyond 100 yards.  Will use it to take care of business if we must.



chiques chicks said:


> I'm personally not a fan of barbed wire as a deterrent, no experience, just leery of it. I would use high and low strands of hot wire to deter predators.
> 
> Coyote are wary animals. You will probably find the shotgun and handgun of limited use on them due to limited range. A rifle with a good scope is better. Something larger than a .22. More like a .222 or .243 with good range, flat trajectory, and energy.
> 
> ...



chiques chicks,

LOL, I like your choice of words "lead poisoning" for the solution.  Using the electric fence and being ready with weaponry appears to be a pattern of advice at this forum.  I choose to go that route for now.

Thanks again everyone for your time, advice, and kindness.

Happy Holidays to all!


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## secuono (Dec 25, 2015)

Do not use prey animals as protection animals. Google it to see the horrific end results.

Hot wire, very hot. Strand at the ground, strand at the top. Barbed wire does nothing. 

They will get used to the light and sound machines, so they will soon be useless. 

Keeping the flock in the barn at night can help some. 

Chicken wire is junk, if they really want the chickens, they will easily shred it. Add hot wire to it. 

Several adult, proven LGDs will help a ton. One or two isn't enough, a pack of coyotes can split them up and kill the dogs. Puppies and teen dogs are also no good.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 25, 2015)

Knowing the level of predator threat is important.
Some areas the threat is very low, some very high.

When we interview for one of our dogs, and this should include those interviewing for donkeys and llamas, we look at many factors. Area size, predator type, level, and other deterrent factors.

Here in our neck not too many "packs" of coyotes... generally they hunt alone. However next door is a cattle farm and the past few years they have have serious increase... because of the size of animals (calves) they come in larger numbers. 7 miles down the road they are traveling in packs of 7-10 suddenly... coyotes are increasing in numbers here for whatever reason.

Generally at night is when predators are most active-when you sleep- guns are great but the animal is already maimed or dead by the time you get there. 

Sometimes people go through serious overkill and they have so little predator issue it really is unnecessary. 

Before going through extreme expense learn your land. 

We don't have a great deal of land but we do have a team or trio in each field. Each team is strategically matched. We have never had loss of poultry, geese, turkeys, or goats. Actually a few turkeys but that was because they were NOT in the areas covered by the dogs. We have had livestock theft prevented on more than one occasion. 

Because dogs are not a good option for you, llamas would be a good second choice. Donkeys do seem to have more issues. 

Merry Christmas to you both! It will be fun to watch your farm grow! How exciting!


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## Mini Horses (Dec 25, 2015)

IMO you see the predator increases here in the East because of the great food supply!   I'm in VA, Southern -- and only a few miles from NC line.  The deer and small game in these areas are very well fed with the general crops grown -- they love the corn, soybeans, milo, winter wheat -- and huge areas of cropland.     Being very opportunistic hunters, they go for the young livestock that is already penned for them.   When feed is available the coyote breed more, as opposed to when the times are tough for them.

We used to have a lot of fox and had seen coyote once. Last year the neighbor behind has advised that there isn't much threat of them as "target practice" was going real well !!  And, haven't seen one in a long, long time.   Seems the skunks are thinned out, too.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 26, 2015)

secuono said:


> Do not use prey animals as protection animals. Google it to see the horrific end results.
> 
> Hot wire, very hot. Strand at the ground, strand at the top. Barbed wire does nothing.
> 
> ...



secuono, thank you for sharing your insights.  I have been looking at the various electrical fencing at our local Tractor Supply.  How "hot" do you recommend the voltage be?

I just finished building a nice sheep house, but these American Blackbelly sheep appear to enjoy sleeping outside.  They will not go inside unless it is raining a lot.  Today, we had to give some injections, and some of these sheep ran and jumped nearly six foot high in the air.  They genuinely looked like Santa's reindeer and at first, we laughed so hard...but then I began to think, these creatures can really hurt humans if we are not careful...

Another thought...although our friends 5 miles away lost 17 baby lambs in 3 weeks to coyotes, maybe our situation is different...our friend did not have any good fencing at all.  He did not light up the flock at night.  He has no close by neighbors, Last, he has a stream of fresh water that runs directly through his property.

Our neighbors directly across from us have free range goats that are constantly having kids and he hasn't lost even one to coyotes...so, maybe we may be better off than I realize.



Southern by choice said:


> Knowing the level of predator threat is important.
> Some areas the threat is very low, some very high.
> 
> When we interview for one of our dogs, and this should include those interviewing for donkeys and llamas, we look at many factors. Area size, predator type, level, and other deterrent factors.
> ...



Southern by choice, how can I the level of predator threat?  Perhaps I can ask more close by neighbors?

I do know we had a significant increase of the red fox last year.  Several kits were born nearby.  But can a fox kill a lamb?

I think I will carefully monitor the security cam footage for the entire perimeter of the property, keeping watch over what/when motion detectors were set off.



Mini Horses said:


> IMO you see the predator increases here in the East because of the great food supply!   I'm in VA, Southern -- and only a few miles from NC line.  The deer and small game in these areas are very well fed with the general crops grown -- they love the corn, soybeans, milo, winter wheat -- and huge areas of cropland.     Being very opportunistic hunters, they go for the young livestock that is already penned for them.   When feed is available the coyote breed more, as opposed to when the times are tough for them.
> 
> We used to have a lot of fox and had seen coyote once. Last year the neighbor behind has advised that there isn't much threat of them as "target practice" was going real well !!  And, haven't seen one in a long, long time.   Seems the skunks are thinned out, too.



Lots of wildlife here Mini Horses.  We often see possums, skunk, hawks, owls, coons, turkeys, etc. For years I could open my front door, draw a bead on a turkey, and enjoy wild turkey jerky for weeks.  Oh, I better add the fact that we used a Benjamin Marauder .25 PCP  air rifle to make it legal.  This is the first year when the turkey flocks were decimated...not sure what did it...I have been thinking it could be the foxes, or even poachers...

I haven't seen a coyote on the property for some time, but 3-4 nights ago we heard a ferocious coyote fight not more than 50 yards from our sheep pen...and that's what got me to thinking I had better have a good plan...


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## Bossroo (Dec 26, 2015)

What is the nearest town to your property.  Ours is 10 miles NE of Clovis, Cal. .  I have seen several coydogs on and near ours as members of coyote packs. The coydogs tend to be much bigger ( like 2x+ larger ) and often a lighter  or darker color depending on the cross than coyotes. One of our neighbors owns 5,000 acres and runs 500 beef cow ranch just a mile down a dead end road from us.  He , some friends and I have had some good target practice on up to several dozen coyotes and a couple coydogs on annual winter weekend safaries.  This is needed as when a cow is down giving birth, the coyotes run up and start to eat the calf's nose off and continues the onslaught untill the cow gets up and it is too late for the calf.  It is much better to be prepared and proactive then to suffer losses.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 26, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> What is the nearest town to your property.  Ours is 10 miles NE of Clovis, Cal. .  I have seen several coydogs on and near ours as members of coyote packs. The coydogs tend to be much bigger ( like 2x+ larger ) and often a lighter  or darker color depending on the cross than coyotes. One of our neighbors owns 5,000 acres and runs 500 beef cow ranch just a mile down a dead end road from us.  He , some friends and I have had some good target practice on up to several dozen coyotes and a couple coydogs on annual winter weekend safaries.  This is needed as when a cow is down giving birth, the coyotes run up and start to eat the calf's nose off and continues the onslaught untill the cow gets up and it is too late for the calf.  It is much better to be prepared and proactive then to suffer losses.



Past few years that has been an issue with the cattle farmers and the horse people. They end up eating the rear of the mother off too.
They all have donkeys... donkeys do a fair job but can't keep up nor do they keep the coyotes from coming in in the first place. 
My son is a licensed trapper and has had quite a few requests this year. 

The goat farms here all have LGD's as well as the sheep farms (more goats here than sheep) ... no losses.  

Good fencing is a must but definitely not the whole picture.
A great guardian, whether it be a donkey, llama, or dog is what _protects_ the flock/herd.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 26, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> What is the nearest town to your property.  Ours is 10 miles NE of Clovis, Cal. .  I have seen several coydogs on and near ours as members of coyote packs. The coydogs tend to be much bigger ( like 2x+ larger ) and often a lighter  or darker color depending on the cross than coyotes. One of our neighbors owns 5,000 acres and runs 500 beef cow ranch just a mile down a dead end road from us.  He , some friends and I have had some good target practice on up to several dozen coyotes and a couple coydogs on annual winter weekend safaries.  This is needed as when a cow is down giving birth, the coyotes run up and start to eat the calf's nose off and continues the onslaught untill the cow gets up and it is too late for the calf.  It is much better to be prepared and proactive then to suffer losses.


Bossroo,

We are approximately 5 miles from the nearest city.  The coyote I saw here was huge.  Its back was nearly at waist level.  I thought it was a wolf at first.  Then I googled coyote and I recognized immediately it had the features of a coyote.  On the way to work one day I saw another coyote, but it was tiny in comparison to the one I saw in our back forest.

Yes, I will be proactive.

1. I am going to Tractor Supply today for electrical fencing.
2. Later today, I will make sure the red dot scope is still dead on.
3. Today I am installing  a photo sensor area light from Home Depot that will light up the entire sheep pen just like daytime.
4. Will go to the CDFW and see about the legality of placing steel leg traps for coyotes.
5. Install some game cameras in the back forest area today.
6. Clear a "buffer zone" by falling nearby trees that I feel give cover and are too close to the sheep pen.
7. Get on our knees and cry out to heaven for supernatural, divine protection over our sheep [maybe number 7 should be at number 1].


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## goatgurl (Dec 26, 2015)

good luck with the fence building.  I'm confused, do youall live on the property or do you just come out to care for your animals?  i will add that a friend of mine kept a donkey in with his goats as a guardian and he got so mean that he attacked the friends children and badly injured one of them.  i am a big believer in a pair of good livestock guardian dogs.  the area i live in has some serious predators, mountain lions, black bears, wild boar and a large coyote population.  nothing has worked as well for me as a pair of big barky dogs.  there are several breeds that are both excellent guardians of livestock and loving with the family.   with the type of fence you are building you shouldn't have a problem keeping a dog inside as well as keep the coyotes out.  hope it works out well for you.


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## babsbag (Dec 26, 2015)

I have to ask, you say you live in Central Valley, CA as if that is a town. Do you mean you live in "the" central valley?  You talk about woods and yet there aren't many areas of the central valley that have woods nearby. I live up near Redding and I am just trying to figure out where you located. I looked for a town called Central Vally and can't find one but little places are popping up all of the time so just being curious.

I wouldn't go with a charger less the one joule, and more would be better. There are also coyote rollers that you install on the top of the fences but I think that they are $$$


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 26, 2015)

goatgurl said:


> good luck with the fence building.  I'm confused, do youall live on the property or do you just come out to care for your animals?  i will add that a friend of mine kept a donkey in with his goats as a guardian and he got so mean that he attacked the friends children and badly injured one of them.  i am a big believer in a pair of good livestock guardian dogs.  the area i live in has some serious predators, mountain lions, black bears, wild boar and a large coyote population.  nothing has worked as well for me as a pair of big barky dogs.  there are several breeds that are both excellent guardians of livestock and loving with the family.   with the type of fence you are building you shouldn't have a problem keeping a dog inside as well as keep the coyotes out.  hope it works out well for you.





babsbag said:


> I have to ask, you say you live in Central Valley, CA as if that is a town. Do you mean you live in "the" central valley?  You talk about woods and yet there aren't many areas of the central valley that have woods nearby. I live up near Redding and I am just trying to figure out where you located. I looked for a town called Central Vally and can't find one but little places are popping up all of the time so just being curious.
> 
> I wouldn't go with a charger less the one joule, and more would be better. There are also coyote rollers that you install on the top of the fences but I think that they are $$$



goatgurl and babsbag,

So sorry for the confusion.  Yes, we reside at our ranch.  We are located between Stockton and Sacramento California east of Galt, and yes, there are large forests/groves of Eucalyptus on all sides in this area.  Hope this helps!


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## babsbag (Dec 26, 2015)

I just drove through you neck of the woods today on my way home from Yosemite.  I just never think of Eucalyptus as being forest or woods but I am sure they are thick. Since they aren't native to CA my brain never goes there but I have seen many large groves of them in that area. I know that many of them were planted in hopes of using them as a sustainable source of fuel. But now CA has decided that wood stoves aren't a good source of heat because of air pollution so I think that project was dropped.

I used hot wire on our fence for coyotes for years before the LGDs. I got the dogs more for me than for the coyotes as the fence seemed to work. I have a wire at the bottom outside and one at the top that extended out from the top of the no-climb fencing and then another one about 6" higher then the fence. My DH also runs a jumper wire from the ground wire to the fence so the fence acts as a ground too so that way the coyote won't have to be touching the ground to get shocked, just touching the fence will be enough of a groun for them to get shocked.  I had a new section of pasture and I saw evidence of coyote coming over the fence when I didn't have a wire installed, we put on a wire and no more coyote.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 26, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I just drove through you neck of the woods today on my way home from Yosemite.  I just never think of Eucalyptus as being forest or woods but I am sure they are thick. Since they aren't native to CA my brain never goes there but I have seen many large groves of them in that area. I know that many of them were planted in hopes of using them as a sustainable source of fuel. But now CA has decided that wood stoves aren't a good source of heat because of air pollution so I think that project was dropped.
> 
> I used hot wire on our fence for coyotes for years before the LGDs. I got the dogs more for me than for the coyotes as the fence seemed to work. I have a wire at the bottom outside and one at the top that extended out from the top of the no-climb fencing and then another one about 6" higher then the fence. My DH also runs a jumper wire from the ground wire to the fence so the fence acts as a ground too so that way the coyote won't have to be touching the ground to get shocked, just touching the fence will be enough of a groun for them to get shocked.  I had a new section of pasture and I saw evidence of coyote coming over the fence when I didn't have a wire installed, we put on a wire and no more coyote.



babsbag,

Redding is a beautiful area!  My wife and I fished Baum lake [east of you], a couple of Christmas' ago and it was amazing.  Cold, but amazing sized rainbow trout.  If I remember correctly, they have one of the only Golden Trout hatcheries in the world there at Crystal Lake Hatchery.

I like your idea of 3 electric wires.  I went to Tractor Supply this evening and they promised me a 10% coupon tomorrow.  Since I need to purchase over 2,000 linear feet of the fencing the 4ft. woven wire and electrical fence parts, I decided to wait until then.

The millions of Eucalyptus in this area were planted over 100 years ago under the assumption that it would make excellent furniture wood and railway ties.  Little did they know that the Eucalyptus would grow different here...yes, terribly twisted and easy to crack due to the climate difference between California and Australia.  The good news is yes, they make beautiful forests, and the wood burns incredibly hot and clean.

Are these forests thick?  Check out my pic.  There are areas where you can't even walk through it, but you must either climb up and through the Eucalyptus or crawl on your tummy under the brush.  That's a wild turkey you see there.  I hunt these in an unconventional way...as in crawl silently on my tummy sometimes up to 50 yards until I have a clean shot. 

Cheers!


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## babsbag (Dec 26, 2015)

I have never been to Baum lake but I know the general area it is in.We have been here about 8 years and haven't really done much camping. Goats have kinda taken over my life and now I am building a dairy.

I wonder if goats would eat eucalyptus?   I always wondered why there were so many trees planted here. I used to live in Fairfield and they had 100s of them lining I-80 and it was just so naked looking when they took them all out to make way for more road. I know they grow fast but DH won't let me plant any as they do burn HOT and we are already in fire prone country; no need to add to the native fuel. I wonder too if they planted the wrong variety of tree, that often happens with some well meaning import.  I would love to have some growing here to harvest for firewood.

That is a lot of fencing. Are you getting the 2x4 no climb or the 4x4 sheep and goat? I have a little of both and it seems the coyotes were going over both quite regularly until we put in the hot wire. Zareba has a new charger that is a 2 joule and will run off a 12v battery. Ours is a 1 joule DC and it has a bite. (Ask me how I know) We use a solar panel  to keep the battery charged. I can't even imagine what a 2 joule one feels like to touch. We have no power in some of the areas so this charger works well for us.

We  use the Zareba poly wire. We tried a more inexpensive wire and it started to rot after a year. This wire has been installed for at least 4 years and it is still doing well. The metal wire is a lot harder to install but you might think about that on the bottom so if you end up using a weed eater to clear the fence you won't cut the wire. I also hear that it is a better conductor.

One little trick I wish I had learned a few years ago is using those step in fiberglass poles in places that I need to go around a tree or if there is a slight dip in the ground. You can also use electrical strip ties to wire these to the woven wire and make the hot wire taller. I did that in an area where I was afriad my LGD was going to go over the fence to engage a neighbor's dog that kept charging my fence line.

Good luck with the fencing project. I am looking at buying 16 acres and the thought of fencing all of that is daunting.


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## Bossroo (Dec 27, 2015)

Babsbag... be very carefull of what you wish for regarding the eucalytus, as they are very brittle in the wind and regularly let their branches fly willy nilly to  hit your car, structure  or your head.      Some friends cut down their 5 acre eucalyptus wood lot to cut down on liability issues ( friends and family car dammage and their auto and HO insurance saying they will no longer cover such dammage ) then had to spray regrowth to kill them regularly .   Then have tons and tons of fun in removing the stumps.


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## Bossroo (Dec 27, 2015)

Soarwitheagles...  I used to live in Davis, Cal. Just NW of Sacramento then moved south to the Fresno area . I often visited  the Jack Tone Ranch near Lodi and their famous Arabian stallion Fadjur... beutiful and very productive peat lands all along the Sacramento River.  I would get the 5 foot tall fence rather than the 4 ft. then put the electric wire at the top (2) ( for 5 1/2 -6ft. tall fence ) and bottom.  Many coyotes will jump the 4 foot fence just as fast as going under one.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 28, 2015)

babsbag said:


> I have never been to Baum lake but I know the general area it is in.We have been here about 8 years and haven't really done much camping. Goats have kinda taken over my life and now I am building a dairy.
> 
> I wonder if goats would eat eucalyptus?   I always wondered why there were so many trees planted here. I used to live in Fairfield and they had 100s of them lining I-80 and it was just so naked looking when they took them all out to make way for more road. I know they grow fast but DH won't let me plant any as they do burn HOT and we are already in fire prone country; no need to add to the native fuel. I wonder too if they planted the wrong variety of tree, that often happens with some well meaning import.  I would love to have some growing here to harvest for firewood.
> 
> ...



babsbag,

We decided to go with the 2x4 non climb for the lambing area and we installed it two days ago.   Getting ready to purchase a total of 7 rolls [2230 ft.] of the field fence due to incredibly high costs of the 2x4 no climb fence.  I was planning upon purchasing the 4 ft field fence, but you are the second person today to recommend the 5 ft. fencing.

Front end of the property here is fairly level and cleared of trees.  The back acreage is solid Eucalyptus forest and there is an existing woven wire field property fence along the entire perimeter.

4 years with the Zareba poly wire!  That sounds like the winner!


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 28, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> Soarwitheagles...  I used to live in Davis, Cal. Just NW of Sacramento then moved south to the Fresno area . I often visited  the Jack Tone Ranch near Lodi and their famous Arabian stallion Fadjur... beutiful and very productive peat lands all along the Sacramento River.  I would get the 5 foot tall fence rather than the 4 ft. then put the electric wire at the top (2) ( for 5 1/2 -6ft. tall fence ) and bottom.  Many coyotes will jump the 4 foot fence just as fast as going under one.



The Fabulous Fadjur was one heck of a beautiful Arabian.  Glad you were able to see this horse!

Yes, I hear you on the 5ft. verses 4ft. fence.  We had dinner tonight with a good friend who is a successful sheep rancher here and he said the exact same thing!  I will go tomorrow and see the price difference at TS.  Thanks again!


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## Scooby308 (Dec 28, 2015)

Not sure about CA, but in KY for every one coyote you see, there are 10 more. They've become quite the nuisance. Back in the day, trapping and hunting kept game and predators to a manageable level. Back in the 80s you never even saw a coy. I trapped one of the first in the state in 87. Now there are tons. 

From what Ive read in your post here, you seem to know outdoors stuff. Just remember the leg traps catch the neighbors dogs too. I luckily never trapped anyones dog, but it was always a fear. 

Motion sensor buzzers might help to alert you when they cross the line. Give you a chance to fire a shotgun blast.


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 28, 2015)

Scooby308 said:


> Not sure about CA, but in KY for every one coyote you see, there are 10 more. They've become quite the nuisance. Back in the day, trapping and hunting kept game and predators to a manageable level. Back in the 80s you never even saw a coy. I trapped one of the first in the state in 87. Now there are tons.
> 
> From what Ive read in your post here, you seem to know outdoors stuff. Just remember the leg traps catch the neighbors dogs too. I luckily never trapped anyones dog, but it was always a fear.
> 
> Motion sensor buzzers might help to alert you when they cross the line. Give you a chance to fire a shotgun blast.



Scooby,

Thanks for your post.  Yes, I think leg traps are highly illegal in California.  But I do remember reading about trapping coyotes with leg traps if we have a trapping license and all traps are stamped with a special state issued number.  I hear you on the risk of catching neighbors dogs.

For the dog problem, we have used live traps and then turned the dogs over to the county animal control agency.

I contacted US Dept. of AG today.  They have a wildlife services program where state officials come out and help with the coyote challenges.  So now I am waiting to hear back from the local representative.

One thing is for certain...I need to do this legally and safely.  I realize California is way over-regulated, but I need to learn to work within the boundaries of the existing laws.  My understanding is shooting a coyote is legal and open season all year long here, but I will have to double check on that.

I also think I heard that shooting any animal that is killing or maiming your livestock is legal...but again, I will look into that.


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## Bossroo (Dec 29, 2015)

Several years ago, Cal. started a program where they would send out a State sharpshooter to eliminate coyotes if you had a coyote problem. I don't know if this is still in effect.   Well, my neighbor called them and they sent out a wildlife "expert" decked out in a green uniform to assess the coyote predation issue. I was present along with my neighbor,  as I too whanted to have the coyotes controlled.   Result...  my neighbor showed this  "expert " 3 dead coyotes that he had shot while they were actively killing his lambs and showed their carcasses too.  This "expert " denied that there was a predation issue and stated that " coyotes had to eat too."   When pressed this " expert" became beligerant and finally admitted that she was an animal rights person and sided with the animal rather than with any predation issue even when lookng right at the dead lambs and coyotes evidense.  So,  I would recomend that you ask some right and pointed questions of any representative that may be involved to see if you will get correct answers to your issue.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 29, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> Several years ago, Cal. started a program where they would send out a State sharpshooter to eliminate coyotes if you had a coyote problem. I don't know if this is still in effect.   Well, my neighbor called them and they sent out a wildlife "expert" decked out in a green uniform to assess the coyote predation issue. I was present along with my neighbor,  as I too whanted to have the coyotes controlled.   Result...  my neighbor showed this  "expert " 3 dead coyotes that he had shot while they were actively killing his lambs and showed their carcasses too.  This "expert " denied that there was a predation issue and stated that " coyotes had to eat too."   When pressed this " expert" became beligerant and finally admitted that she was an animal rights person and sided with the animal rather than with any predation issue even when lookng right at the dead lambs and coyotes evidense.  So,  I would recomend that you ask some right and pointed questions of any representative that may be involved to see if you will get correct answers to your issue.



Funny how the activist has so much "compassion" for the coyote but none for the lambs and sheep.


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## babsbag (Dec 29, 2015)

soarwitheagles said:


> I also think I heard that shooting any animal that is killing or maiming your livestock is legal...but again, I will look into that.



Unless it is the infamous "lone" wolf, OR-7  (who now has a pack of his own). He will cost you about $10,000 and some jail time


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 29, 2015)

Bossroo said:


> Several years ago, Cal. started a program where they would send out a State sharpshooter to eliminate coyotes if you had a coyote problem. I don't know if this is still in effect.   Well, my neighbor called them and they sent out a wildlife "expert" decked out in a green uniform to assess the coyote predation issue. I was present along with my neighbor,  as I too whanted to have the coyotes controlled.   Result...  my neighbor showed this  "expert " 3 dead coyotes that he had shot while they were actively killing his lambs and showed their carcasses too.  This "expert " denied that there was a predation issue and stated that " coyotes had to eat too."   When pressed this " expert" became beligerant and finally admitted that she was an animal rights person and sided with the animal rather than with any predation issue even when lookng right at the dead lambs and coyotes evidense.  So,  I would recomend that you ask some right and pointed questions of any representative that may be involved to see if you will get correct answers to your issue.



Wow, what a shocking and sad story!  Thanks for sharing and now I will be extra cautious and very careful to ask the correct questions when the Dept. of Ag rep comes to visit us.  This specific branch of government is called Wild Life Services Program, and the agents are referred to as "trappers."

I will also do my best to openly share at this forum the results.

Several of our neighbors handle the coyote/fox challenges quite differently.  Some of them have the $2000+ night scopes attached to a 300 Winchester Magnum.  They make one heck of a loud noise, esp. when you hear it at 2-3 am in the morning.

I would give them credit for keeping the numbers of predators lower than what it could be...and I suppose this is the SSS method so many people speak about.  Needless to say, I do not want to get into any trouble by breaking laws, even if some of the laws at times appear to be ridiculous.


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## Latestarter (Dec 29, 2015)

Many of the laws that at time appear ridiculous.... ARE in fact ridiculous... I shoot a 300 Wheatherby mag as my high powered weapon of choice... any 300 mag is quite a bit of overkill for anything smaller than say an elk. There are youtube videos out there on how to make a night vision scope for a fraction of that. Actually IR scopes, which are better in my opinion that night vision... anyway...


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## soarwitheagles (Dec 29, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> Many of the laws that at time appear ridiculous.... ARE in fact ridiculous... I shoot a 300 Wheatherby mag as my high powered weapon of choice... any 300 mag is quite a bit of overkill for anything smaller than say an elk. There are youtube videos out there on how to make a night vision scope for a fraction of that. Actually IR scopes, which are better in my opinion that night vision... anyway...



Latestarter,

Now you really got my attention!  You are saying there are ways to make night vision and/or IR scopes for a fraction of the cost of the super high end scopes?

Hmmmmmm...I am all ears...please help me out here!

BTW, not wanting to turn his forum into a political debate...but I totally agree with you...there are some laws that are in fact ridiculous!  And I will leave it at that.

But please, help me out on how to make an excellent night vision scope.  You just may have solved our riddle on how to manage coyotes!

PS You began to keep bees in April.  How's it going?  We started again in April.  Here's our hive on a Eucalyptus stump, then two on the ant proof beehive stand, doing a midnight Oxalic Acid vaporization.


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## Latestarter (Dec 29, 2015)

Here ya go, completely from legal materials and pretty danged good for what it costs to make it. This is version 1.0, there are follow on youtubes for updated improved versions. You can link to the owner's name to find his other videos. There are actually quite a few others out there as well. One of the final/later ones I watched, they had installed small video receptors/displays in a helmet with goggles type set up where you could point the gun and the sight alignment would show like wearing a pair of 3D goggles without the associated video display light that would give you away to anyone else around you looking for you. Of course if your opposition is also using IR, video display light would really be the least of your worries... right?






As for my bees, well, we have ~6" of drifted snow and daytime high temps below freezing right now, so I can't get into the hive to check on them. I treated for mites back in Oct/Nov with Hopguard II, and hope it wasn't too late. They were still bearding on warm days in early November. I really like your set up as far as keeping them up off the ground, but it must make it difficult to work on them once they get to be several deeps high along with honey supers above that... I guess you could back the pick up up to them and stand on the tail gate... Least you wouldn't need to carry the supers far when taking them for processing.

I have to say though, having that heavy hive balanced on only two points (the stump pic) would really make me nervous! We get some really high winds here and I'd be worried the sail action would cause it to get blown off.

I haven't used OA, but am def going to check into it for future use.


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## Beekissed (Dec 30, 2015)

In the eastern panhandle of our state are many sheep farmers and they are dealing with coyotes and black bear as their main predators.   Either can wipe out a lamb crop in one night.  For awhile they were using LGDs and that was working well...but their dogs liked to go walkabout and were patrolling far more territory than just their own herd.  

This kept many bears at bay for miles around, but the coyotes were having a field day and the LGDs were getting hit on the highway, killed by neighbors, etc.  

Then folks switched to donkeys.  So far they seem very satisfied with the donkeys...they stay in the fences, they eat the same thing as the sheep, they don't cost a lot, don't need vetted much, and live a long time.  Most have two with their flock.  I've heard they've been very effective against both the 'yotes and bears.


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## Scooby308 (Dec 30, 2015)

I like that IR setup. Bulky, but smaller than the old days. As for noise, check out solvent traps. If you're gun savvy, you know what they can be adapted to. Totally not legal unless you have the tax stamp.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 8, 2016)

Beekissed said:


> In the eastern panhandle of our state are many sheep farmers and they are dealing with coyotes and black bear as their main predators.   Either can wipe out a lamb crop in one night.  For awhile they were using LGDs and that was working well...but their dogs liked to go walkabout and were patrolling far more territory than just their own herd.
> 
> This kept many bears at bay for miles around, but the coyotes were having a field day and the LGDs were getting hit on the highway, killed by neighbors, etc.
> 
> Then folks switched to donkeys.  So far they seem very satisfied with the donkeys...they stay in the fences, they eat the same thing as the sheep, they don't cost a lot, don't need vetted much, and live a long time.  Most have two with their flock.  I've heard they've been very effective against both the 'yotes and bears.



Beekissed,

I like the idea of donkeys, and I have heard others mention how effective they are at keeping predators at bay.  I wonder how much donkeys eat compared to sheep?

I have finally purchased an electric fence controller [Zareba 15 miler].  I hope to line the top and bottom of the outside of the first sheep pen with the electrical wire.

I need to do more reading and more research and ask so many more questions...I have no clue what I am doing...not sure if I am to use short stand offs, extended standoffs, ect.

*Important Update:* Last night, for the first time ever, all the sheep suddenly gathered into a super tight group, all their eyes trained on something in the back forest...every sheep looked tense and poised to jump.  I have never seen that before.  I called my rancher neighbor and he told me sheep group into that type of formation when they sense a predator nearby.  I went back into the forest later, and saw no evidence of any predator.  But I read that coyotes can be very sneaky.

Needless to say, this incident further motivated me to do more reading, more research, ask more questions, then, at the very least, install the electrical fencing outside the lambing sheep pen.  I will also install 2-3 more cameras, covering not only every square inch of the pen, but the entire perimeter of the entire pen.

Some of the ladies appear ready to drop their lambs any day now.


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## soarwitheagles (Jan 8, 2016)

Scooby308 said:


> I like that IR setup. Bulky, but smaller than the old days. As for noise, check out solvent traps. If you're gun savvy, you know what they can be adapted to. Totally not legal unless you have the tax stamp.



I would love to have one of those quieter coyote controllers, but having one here would place myself, my family, my teaching credential, and my entire future at risk...therefore I cannot afford to even touch one...


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2016)

I use the standoffs that are about 5" long. The short ones are only good if your fence is super straight and tight. Mine is tight, but not straight as I like to use trees as fence posts when I can; better than cutting the tree down.   They make standoffs for the front of t-posts and the back so make sure you get the right ones.  A trick my DH taught me is to run a jumper wire from the ground rod to the fence and that way the fence acts as a ground too. If the predator is climbing the fence and not touching the ground they typically won't get shocked, like birds on a wire. But if the fence is a ground too then if the predator is climbing and they touch the hot wire they still get zapped. 

I have a wire on the outside at the top of the fence and one about 5" from the bottom. If you have heavy wet grass in the spring you will need to weed whack or have a love affair with Roundup, a pain but needed here. I had a section of pasture that coyotes were breaching nightly, it had no hot wire and no LGD access at night.  One hot wire on the top of that section and no more coyote crossings. Chargers have different Joule ratings, you want at least 1 Joule, of course more never hurts.  The bottom wire often catches toads and lizards too. 

Ask questions if you need to, there are a lot of electric fence owners here.


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## Latestarter (Jan 9, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Chargers have different Joule ratings, you want at least 1 Joule, of course more never hurts.


 More hurts like hell actually! 2 joule and some wet grass will put you on your butt


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## Mini Horses (Jan 9, 2016)

One tip about donkeys for guards...they can be great but, they guard "their" herd.  Add a buck to breed the does and he may be severely hurt or killed.  He wasn't part of "their" herd.  Even tho a goat.   I had one who stomped a 3 mo old full blood Boer one year as it slipped into an adjoining field.  NOT part of the herd!!  Her herd was all Boer does with young kids.  Those born there were ok, just not one from another doe/field.  

Some donks do NOT guard.  Those that do are great.  I prefer a pair, especially if predators are large -- in number or size.


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## babsbag (Jan 9, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> More hurts like hell actually! 2 joule and some wet grass will put you on your butt



I saw a 6 joule one today at TSC...no way I am letting that near me or my goats. *OUCH!!!!*


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## Mini Horses (Jan 10, 2016)

That's for BEAR!!


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## Latestarter (Jan 10, 2016)

Very BIG bear!


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## Mfrantz (Feb 4, 2016)

The problem with coyotes is they are smart, unlike a wolf. The best way to get them is with large steel traps in my opinion and a bait of bird or unused meat. Cat food is good in temperatures above freezing. With hunting any shotgun or rifle will do although shotguns do have limited range and 22. are small. A  .222 is a great gun to use in this case. Another good solution is poisoning some meat and hanging it (out of reach of your animals or neighbors, which doesn't mean a tree just far enough from your animals and far enough from theirs.) where you see them travelling.


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 4, 2016)

Mfrantz said:


> The problem with coyotes is they are smart, unlike a wolf. The best way to get them is with large steel traps in my opinion and a bait of bird or unused meat. Cat food is good in temperatures above freezing. With hunting any shotgun or rifle will do although shotguns do have limited range and 22. are small. A  .222 is a great gun to use in this case. Another good solution is poisoning some meat and hanging it (out of reach of your animals or neighbors, which doesn't mean a tree just far enough from your animals and far enough from theirs.) where you see them travelling.



Mfrantz,

You have some interesting ideas.  I wish I could use the steel leg traps, but they are banned in this state.

Poisoning some meat?  Ok, what type of poison do you suggest?  It is probably banned here too.

And I hear you on the .222.  Have a number of the .223's and I know they would get the job done, but, like you said, the coyotes are very smart and sneaky!


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## Baymule (Feb 4, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Mfrantz,
> 
> You have some interesting ideas.  I wish I could use the steel leg traps, but they are banned in this state.
> 
> ...


Isn't everything banned in California? ...............except taxes.........taxes.........


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## soarwitheagles (Feb 4, 2016)

Baymule,

It sure is beginning to appear as if you are painfully correct!


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2016)

I can think of a few things that aren't banned in CA that should be...

I hear coyotes most every night and thankfully my LGDs do too. I so love those dogs. Personally I would be afraid of the poison, I am even afraid to poison the dang ground squirrels for fear of poisoning an innocent animal.


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## Scooby308 (Feb 5, 2016)

Love to see this pass. 

http://weaponsmedia.com/goodbye-200-tax-stamp-bill-introduced-to-remove-suppressors-from-nfa/


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## Southern by choice (Feb 5, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I can think of a few things that aren't banned in CA that should be...
> 
> I hear coyotes most every night and thankfully my LGDs do too. I so love those dogs. Personally I would be afraid of the poison, I am even afraid to poison the dang ground squirrels for fear of poisoning an innocent animal.



Poison bait is horrible. It affects many more species than the one you are trying to take out. UC Davis newsletter has at least one example every month of animals unintentionally poisoned by these baits. Bad all the way around.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 5, 2016)

We are seeing them more and more in the day time and of course at dusk or dawn. Sometimes I can get a chance to get a shot at one across a field that is out alone in broad daylight. I prefer a .243 but Indiana is pretty flat and you have to be very careful not to miss or go through and hit something unintentional.


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## Baymule (Feb 17, 2016)

We just heard coyotes killing a dog. It was very close, in front of our place and down a little bit. There are some stray dogs that hang out on our road, we keep our front gate closed to keep them out of our place. The dog was screaming, the coyotes were snarling and yipping, it went on for several minutes, then all was silent. We were in the house (well insulated) watching TV and I heard the dog screaming above the noise of CNN. We couldn't see anything, we are surrounded by woods, but we could hear it. We then called several neighbors so they could make sure their dogs were accounted for.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 18, 2016)

That would be hard to have to listen to wondering about the fate of the dog. We generally sympathize more for the dog, even a stray than the coyotes because we have domesticated them and most households have them. There was probably nothing that could be done. I don't know if firing a shot overhead or into a tree close to the action would have scared them off or not. 
We were having a funeral this past Monday, and the guys came to plow our parking lot. We are in a rural farmland and wooded area. Not a stone's throw to our South is the Monroe-Morgan State Forest. The guys jumped a coyote bedded down in the landscaping shrubs next to the church. Usually all I see there are (wild)rabbits, so we are giving them a food source. 
The back of the property where the parsonage and shed are at also has the small hay field I utilize, and is bordered on three sides by treeline. The front up by the road doesn't usually see the wildlife action because it is more open and exposed. 
The coyotes have little to no predators to keep them in check; not that I want wolves or bears in my backyard.
The whole country has a booming coyote population, and it is a problem with our domestic animals. In order to protect the new lambs and calves, not to mention chickens or rabbits and smaller animals in a more controlled space, they need to be managed with a game hunt or something.


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## Latestarter (Feb 18, 2016)

Most states that recognize the coyote issue have year round open season on them. KY has just legalized night hunting for them. The problem is they are making themselves at home in more suburban settings where hunting is rarely allowed. Would you want someone hunting/shooting around your church or parsonage? As a result, the only personnel legally able to "take" them is LEO and Fish & Game folks. I imagine some trapping could be done, but with the domestic animals running around, all it would take is for someone's fido to get trapped and a law suit to follow, and then right back to square one. 

I don't really think there are any true predators of coyotes except man. Wolves will kill them if they catch them, but don't prey on them. Bears as a general rule will steal a coyotes kill, but could care less about the coyote. The same for mountain lions.

I hate the thought of a dog being taken by coyotes, but strays are strays... A stray dog can be just as dangerous to my livestock as a coyote. If a coyote or pack of them were attacking my dog, I'd be out there, gun blazing. That's why I got a LGD, and intend to get another.


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## samssimonsays (Feb 18, 2016)

Baymule, that is heartbreaking to think about hearing.... and such a scary thought that it could happen. I hope it was a stray and not a pet of someones. 

We have more wolves than coyotes here and the wolves have been taking peoples dogs. The folks behind us have a huge fenced in yard to protect their little poms, the people across the road have their lab mix in a dog run, the people next to us have a sr lab that doesn't really go out alone for long, we have ours who don't go out for very long unattended (they love visiting the neighbors to the side of us who have one Pom as they will watch them occasionally for us if we are in a jam and us their little pom) We have warned them to keep a close eye on the little guy as some times he will come over to our house and has to go through the woods to do it. But people less than 2 miles away had a pack lure their dog out of the yard and they killed it while the people were yelling and running after them. People the other direction within 5 miles have had similar experiences. It seems to have mellowed out since hunting season now but it was happening and even though we have 2 very intelligent and protective dogs, a Collie who would lay her life down for her people or her livestock and big great pyr/st. bernard who is growing into his pyr instincts more and more every day, they are no match for a pack of wolves. A pack of anything really.


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## Bossroo (Feb 18, 2016)

The best way to solve all of the coyote, wolf, cougar, bear issues is to put a dead or alive bounty on all of the animal rights activists.


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## Southern by choice (Feb 18, 2016)




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## samssimonsays (Feb 18, 2016)

Nothin' but truth!


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## Mike CHS (Feb 18, 2016)

I needed a laugh - Thank You


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## Baymule (Feb 18, 2016)

We're pretty sure it was a stray last night and not someone's pet. There have been several hanging around. We went to the end of our driveway and DH fired off a round into the dirt and we yelled. But by that time, it was quiet and the dog was more than likely dead.

We have two house dogs, a black Lab/Great Dane cross and an Australian Shepherd. Before we got the place fenced, we went outside with them on every potty event, especially at night. They were never allowed to run loose. I don't think it is right to let dogs run loose just because we aren't in the city limits. I don't want my dogs being a nuisance and I sure don't want anybody else's nuisance dogs. And we didn't want our dogs to end up like the dog last night, dinner for coyotes.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2016)

I hear the coyotes almost every night and I see the scat on the road all of the time and in the un-fenced areas of our land; even right near the house.   I have two Border Collie x house dogs and I won't leave them in the fenced yard at night if I am not home. I don't trust those coyotes to stay on their own side of the fence. Fortunately I have my LGDs for the goats...they let me sleep at night.


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## Pastor Dave (Feb 19, 2016)

@Latestarter you are right. I wouldn't want someone shooting in the direction of the church or parsonage. That being said, I DO shoot behind them in the small field. My background is as an outdoorsman, hunter/angler from an early age.
Boyscout from 10-16. Judged dairy cattle in FFA and also did forestry competition. I wanted to be a game warden and actually went and earned a two-year AS degree in Conservation Law Enforcement. I have had back issues and a couple surgeries since age 18. That kept me from law enforcement or farming/ranching for that matter. It was ten more years before I would earn my bachelor's of ministry.
Wildlife management should involve taking care of overpopulation of species. Hunting helps with the whitetail population, but the coyote population is booming. Indiana allows year-round and nighttime hunting of coyote. My nearest neighbor and congregation member has had lambs this season killed and had to watch his calves dropped out in pasture very close. He is the farmer that mows and bales my field, and I help him with his other fields. He started paying a guy that does a "monthly management" of varmint/predators for huge bucks. They couldn't afford to keep paying him. If I see one on his or our properties, and of course it is safe, I will take that shot.
The person that goes out and buys a gun and scope to haphazardly take out all the coyotes on his property would be the danger to the community and neighbors. I do know Indiana mandates a hunter's ed course for all high school students, or at least used to. That may have changed. I believe that is a good idea.


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## samssimonsays (Feb 19, 2016)

Sadly, any animal can become a nuisance and it is usually humans at fault for it one way or another. Whether it is lack of population control, running them out of their habitat or even as much as feeding them from the kind hearted people out there who don't want the wildlife to go hungry. We no longer feed any wildlife what so ever due to a situation I was put through because of others doing so in our area.
I was attacked by a wild turkey Tom a couple years back. He attacked my car and wouldn't let me out. He actually chased my vehicle out of the driveway so I left and came back at which point he was gone. I made the decision to run for the house when he came barreling back at me from in the woods. I made it into the house but he continued to scream and flap at the door, he was actually throwing himself against the door and pecking it. It is a wooden front door so no reflection of himself was on it. I was home alone. I grabbed the gun, went out the back door on the deck, and all it took was the sound of the door and he came racing around the house and flew up at me. This was a shock for me because I knew they could fly but had never witnessed it nor did I imagine they could be so fierce! I shot him once, he got up again and I shot a second time taking him down immediately. I should add that I opted to use my husbands pistol instead of the shot gun and I am still unsure as to why other than I was more comfortable with aiming and shooting the pistol. I took care of him before anyone could even call me back with advice as to what to do. Come to find out, He had become unafraid of humans due to people feeding the wildlife and had been attacking people at the local dump in the previous weeks as well. He had a 6.5 inch and weighed in at around the 50# marker. His talons were like spears and his wing span was longer than my arm span fully extended, i am not a tall person but I do stand 5 ft 5 1/2 in tall so I am not terribly short either. He could have done severe damage to me or anyone he got his talons on including the small children that are in the area. No one would expect a TURKEY to attack like that in my area. I usually carry the gun with me to the barn even though it is not far from the house because you just never know anymore. The dogs being grown and adults now help a lot but I am always aware of my surroundings and that is the best way to manage a predator problem of any kind in my opinion. If something is threatening you, your livestock or pets, you take it out. That is my motto.


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## soarwitheagles (Apr 3, 2016)

Samantha drawz said:


> Sadly, any animal can become a nuisance and it is usually humans at fault for it one way or another. Whether it is lack of population control, running them out of their habitat or even as much as feeding them from the kind hearted people out there who don't want the wildlife to go hungry. We no longer feed any wildlife what so ever due to a situation I was put through because of others doing so in our area.
> I was attacked by a wild turkey Tom a couple years back. He attacked my car and wouldn't let me out. He actually chased my vehicle out of the driveway so I left and came back at which point he was gone. I made the decision to run for the house when he came barreling back at me from in the woods. I made it into the house but he continued to scream and flap at the door, he was actually throwing himself against the door and pecking it. It is a wooden front door so no reflection of himself was on it. I was home alone. I grabbed the gun, went out the back door on the deck, and all it took was the sound of the door and he came racing around the house and flew up at me. This was a shock for me because I knew they could fly but had never witnessed it nor did I imagine they could be so fierce! I shot him once, he got up again and I shot a second time taking him down immediately. I should add that I opted to use my husbands pistol instead of the shot gun and I am still unsure as to why other than I was more comfortable with aiming and shooting the pistol. I took care of him before anyone could even call me back with advice as to what to do. Come to find out, He had become unafraid of humans due to people feeding the wildlife and had been attacking people at the local dump in the previous weeks as well. He had a 6.5 inch and weighed in at around the 50# marker. His talons were like spears and his wing span was longer than my arm span fully extended, i am not a tall person but I do stand 5 ft 5 1/2 in tall so I am not terribly short either. He could have done severe damage to me or anyone he got his talons on including the small children that are in the area. No one would expect a TURKEY to attack like that in my area. I usually carry the gun with me to the barn even though it is not far from the house because you just never know anymore. The dogs being grown and adults now help a lot but I am always aware of my surroundings and that is the best way to manage a predator problem of any kind in my opinion. If something is threatening you, your livestock or pets, you take it out. That is my motto.



Very nice post Samantha!  Wow, I never would have imagined a turkey that mean and ornery!  Glad you dispatched him!  And you must be a great shot with a pistol!  Must people use a shotgun for turkeys.

Thanks for making the world a safer place!


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## babsbag (Sep 21, 2016)

I have 2.5 LGDs that guard my goats and they used to guard my chickens but the chickens had to be moved to a field of their own because of the dairy. The chickens field is fenced with 2x4 4' tall no climb and they get locked up at night and let out at sunrise. 6 months ago I added ducks and they follow the same routine as the chickens. Now I have a lot of chickens, they come and go in and out of their field and they sometimes disappear to go broody. I do not count them but I have over 50 hens. 

A few weeks ago I was missing a duck. I thought that a little strange since they are safe at night. I didn't really check the fences as I was pretty sure they were tight. Well, I found duck feathers about 600' from my land so I knew it was a predator so I checked the fence and found a place where they could come under; it is in a gully and had probably eroded this last winter and the coyotes took advantage of that.  Patched that up and that night there were some really mad coyotes at that fence... .

While I don't count my chickens I have few that are obvious and I noticed that I was also missing 2 of my 3 Polish. In the 8 years that I have owned chickens I have lost one to a predator that I know of, and that was a hawk. So this is new territory for me. 

A few days later I lost another duck so again I checked the fence and didn't see anything as obvious as before but still tightened up a few potential spots that they could go under. I also changed the timer on the coop door to open at 8 AM instead of 6:30.

All is good for about a week and another duck is gone. Now I am mad. I started looking at the chickens again and I am also missing 4 of my Black Copper Marans.  This is out of control.  The coop door now opens at 9 AM. 

I put up a trail cam and all I see is a squirrel. But I found scat in the chicken yard and outside of the chicken yard and all too close to my goats. My bucks are in a pen with hot wire but no dogs, I need to change that tomorrow. I spent the day putting hot wire on my chicken fence but I am not getting the reading I would like but I ran out of daylight. More to do tomorrow. I also reinforced some fencing that was not as tight as I would like it to be. Our ground is everything but level so getting tight fences with no gaps at the bottom is tricky. 

These coyotes are very bold, they are coming in the morning and granted 6:30 was early, but 8 isn't all that early. They are also having to come within 7' of my house to get into this area to begin with and they may very well be crossing my deck. I can't let the dogs into the entire area as I don't have good perimeter fences and I have a cat that is out all day and on a rare occasion over night. (bad kitty) My LGDs know nothing of cats. The area is too big and too broken up for the 2 adult dogs to guard successfully anyways and they have never been anywhere out of  the goat pen so that really isn't an option. I could possibly let them into the chicken area at night but if the chickens ever got  out the dogs know nothing about ducks and I know that they don't like the guineas that are often in the field too.  So I am not counting on the dogs.

Does anyone have any experience with the electronic deterrents? I am hoping the hot wire will give them a reason to move on, but I think that they have found a smorgasbord.  

Any ideas?


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## Baymule (Sep 21, 2016)

@babsbag I would suggest long term, train a dog to your chickens. With that many and that big of an area, you need a dog for them. In the mean time you could build extra cover for the poultry as a hawk deterrent. And you could close them up at night and allow the dogs access to their area at night. If your dogs are ok with the chickens, it's not a far stretch to get them used to the ducks too.

Check the rescue sites for a LGD that is good with poultry. You might find just what you are looking for.

You could have foxes. They are small, smart and like poultry.


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## greybeard (Sep 21, 2016)

One thing I know about coyotes. Dead ones don't get hungry and they don't re-appear. If you don't want or cant do it personally, there is no shortage of people that will be glad to come do it for you--put up a notice at the local feed& seed. "Coyote hunters wanted"


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## babsbag (Sep 21, 2016)

@greybeard  Maybe a dumb question about hunting coyotes...do they just sit out there and wait for them or do they call them in ???  I am certainly not opposed to doing it, I have they ways and the means. I thought about a trap but leghold traps are not legal in CA, (no surprise there)  so not sure how to trap them. 

@Baymule I am wishing I had kept a puppy from my last liter a few years ago. When I get the dairy done and the new orchard planted I would love a dog in that area too to keep the dear and raccoons out of the orchard.  My girlfriend has an intact female from my litter and she was planning on raising some pups but either the dog is defective or very stealth as she has never caught her in heat.   It will be years, maybe never, before Mia is safe around poultry.  Maybe I need to check the rescues but in CA they are weird about letting them go to a working home.


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## greybeard (Sep 21, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @greybeard  Maybe a dumb question about hunting coyotes...do they just sit out there and wait for them or do they call them in ???  I am certainly not opposed to doing it, I have they ways and the means. I thought about a trap but leghold traps are not legal in CA, (no surprise there)  so not sure how to trap them.


Both means are used here. I do not call them in tho--just never leaned to o it and never needed to--I hear them coming or my own dogs alert me to them as they approach and I go by foot to the yelping, and I leave the dead ones laying where they fall--usually only got off one shot on any night, but it's been a long time since any came inside my perimeter fences (barbed wire). When I first cleared this place to pasture, they were here every night. I started thinning the packs out, one at a time. They aren't stupid animals--they learn quick to avoid areas fought with danger.  I did find one on the county dirt road leading to my house last week--shot thru the neck by someone, so I know they are still around.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 21, 2016)

I've heard of people using recordings of rabbits screaming or whatever that noise is referred to,  to call them in.  My husband used to bait them with gut piles when he was a kid.  I have no idea if this is still legal! It was then,  but he grew up in the middle of nowhere. If you shoot a few they usually get the message. Every time I hear them come to close for comfort I hear my neighbor shooting to scare them off.  Or we go do it if he's not home! They know what guns are.  They don't like them!


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## NH homesteader (Sep 21, 2016)

Oh and why would the rescue not want an animal to do what they were bred to do?  They're usually given up because they're not house pets...  So they want them to go be house pets?


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## Bossroo (Sep 21, 2016)

No- one has shown where the rescuers have any sence. They are doing it to relieve their own deep seated guilt trips and expect others to see their way of thinking.


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## Latestarter (Sep 21, 2016)

Oh, the subject of shelters has been disgust (discussed) at length here. You'll have a tough time finding anything positive. But it all makes the "save the animals" folks feel good about themselves...


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## NH homesteader (Sep 21, 2016)

One of my dogs was a "rescue".  His mom was rescued pregnant and I got him from them. Best dog ever. But,  if he had been adopted by someone without dog sense,  he would have been a nightmare. He is not an easy dog.  I'm not against rescues but I am against the "save everyone"  rescues. Or ones that don't bother understanding the animal they're "rescuing".


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## babsbag (Sep 21, 2016)

The IPM article that UC Davis puts out says that coyotes would rather dig under a fence than go over a fence and I think mine do both. I know they were going under at first but I fixed that. Our ground is so hard that they can't easily dig under but I found an area of my fence where the fence was stretched around a curve and it was too tight and the posts were starting to lean in quite a bit; it looked like a perfect spot to easily go over the fence. I fixed that yesterday.  It was right near the scat that I found and also near a leaky sprinkler valve that I was allowing to leak for the guineas.  I will be fixing the valve today too and the guineas need to find other water. I need to remove that attractant.


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## Baymule (Sep 21, 2016)

@babsbag here is a link to a rescue site. Yes most of them want their precious "mix" (of what?) to go to a forever home where they can sleep on the couch. But I have found some real good dogs on this site. I was looking on this site one night (before we moved) and DH asked why. I told him that we would need another dog. The very next day a man walked in DH's job with a GP puppy and that's how we got Trip. LOL

http://greatpyrenees.rescueme.org/Texas

MsDeb adopted a Pyr mix from Austin, Tx and it was relayed close to her, she lives in Kansas. So even if you find a dog that isn't in your state, check on it anyway, you never know.

edited to add;
http://www.txpyrs.org/TGPRescue/Public/AdoptableServlet?COMMAND=LIST&regionNo=-1

there are actually working dogs on this site!


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## soarwitheagles (Sep 21, 2016)

Hi babs,

We have had coyotes on our property often.  Just last week we heard them fighting and yipping, establishing their territory.  We have never lost a sheep.  We did install a large light in the sheep pen that borders the forest.  This light comes on at dusk, and turns off at dawn, and it lights up the entire area.

I read somewhere that lights at night keep coyotes at bay...

Do you have your areas well lit?


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2016)

No lights at all unless I hear something and turn them on and even then the lights are only where the goats are and that isn't my problem area; the dogs take care of the goats.  I will have to look into getting power to the other area... I wonder if a motion activated light would work.


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## soarwitheagles (Sep 22, 2016)

babsbag said:


> No lights at all unless I hear something and turn them on and even then the lights are only where the goats are and that isn't my problem area; the dogs take care of the goats.  I will have to look into getting power to the other area... I wonder if a motion activated light would work.



Not sure if motion activated lights do the job.  Here, after lots of reading, I ran an electrical line and a Ethernet cable underground to the sheep pen, installed one of those dusk-to-dawn photo-sensor lights, and a couple of HD IP cameras just in case, but for some reason, the coyotes stay completely out of this pen.

Is it possible to run a temporary electrical extension cord to the area in need, and hook up a super low wattage light at the end?


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## babsbag (Sep 22, 2016)

It is possible and I am working on it already. 

Last night my LGDs went crazy. I crawled out of bed at 4 AM to go and see what the commotion was all about. Had my high powered light and my low powered gun, but I was ready. I didn't see anything worth barking about but they sure did. All was quiet after I went back to bed. I feel like I am under siege.


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## frustratedearthmother (Sep 22, 2016)

I'm just going to toss this out there...

https://www.amazon.com/Nite-Guard-NG-001-Predator-Control/dp/B0014FGT8C

Several years ago I was losing chickens out of a pen that my LGD couldn't get to.  I finally, with a lot of skepticism, ordered a couple of these.  I've gotta say - never lost another chicken from that pen.  Coincidence?  Maybe...but it worked at my house.

And, just for a funny... My neighbor asked me what those blinking red lights were in my pasture and I told 'em it was a game camera because something had been 'stealing' my chickens at night, lol.  I don't think I ever changed my story!


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 22, 2016)

I know some folks really like the Nite Guard that FEM posted.

I don't know how well it would work here, those dang coyotes will still get close to the fence line. 
Last year this was rather close to one of our fence lines.... 





The coyotes got it and once they were done the buzzards picked it clean. Crazy.


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## Bossroo (Sep 23, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Hi babs,
> 
> We have had coyotes on our property often.  Just last week we heard them fighting and yipping, establishing their territory.  We have never lost a sheep.  We did install a large light in the sheep pen that borders the forest.  This light comes on at dusk, and turns off at dawn, and it lights up the entire area.
> 
> ...


Well,  on our first ranch, I had an 3 sided well lit shed / barn surrounded by a corral  with jugs to keep newborn lambs with their mammas.  one night coyotes whent inside that barn and helped themseoves to a couple lambs. A few nights later, while I was doing well hidden night watch  in that barn a coyote came along and droped in it's tracks from lead poisoning from my .308. I hung it's carcass on a fence as a warning to others. Solved that problem for  a year.


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## Mike CHS (Sep 23, 2016)

Bossroo - that same method gets rid of problem crows also.


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## Bossroo (Sep 23, 2016)

Mike CHS said:


> Bossroo - that same method gets rid of problem crows also.


I agree, but exchage the weapon to a 12 gauge shotgun .  The more you drop the more show up to let you know of their displeasure, so more are available targets to thin out the population.


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## greybeard (Sep 23, 2016)

I guess we should all be glad we don't live in these days:


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2016)

Would a .22 have a chance against a coyote?

I have looked at those Nite Guards but didn't know if they would work. Also looked at this. http://www.runcoyoterun.com/

I had a more elaborate version of that kind of deterrent when we first moved here, it wasn't a CD but an actually little device that would screech every 8 minutes all night long. It never bothered me, but the neighbors hated it. No neighbors right now so that problem solved. But my little gizmo finally died and the company is gone away. I never had coyotes back then, but I also had electric fences and then eventually my dogs and the neighbors had GSDs that pretty much guarded out driveways.  The chickens lived with the goats then too. So I don't know if the device worked or if it was just other deterrents. Plus we have water sources now that weren't here before so I am sure that that draws them in too.


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## Goat Whisperer (Sep 23, 2016)

I can't believe you can't use the the leg hold traps Babs. That is just crazy. Is it all leg hold traps? Can you use the one with rubber jaws?


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## greybeard (Sep 23, 2016)

According to section 3003.1
_ 3003.1 Use of Body-Gripping Traps Prohibited; Buy, Sell, Barter, Etc. Fur from Animal Trapped with Prohibited Trap.

A body-gripping trap is one that grips the mammal’s body or body part, including, but not limited to

_


_

steel-jawed leghold traps

padded-jaw leghold traps

conibear traps

snares

deadfalls
_

But there seem to be exceptions for nuisance animals.
Well........ just read this:
http://outdoorselfreliance.com/decoding-california-trapping-law/

Toward the end, it says:

_
§465.5. Use of Traps.

(g) Use of Conibear Traps, Snares, Cage and Box Traps, Nets, Suitcase-type Live Beaver Traps and Common Rat and Mouse Traps for Purposes Unrelated to Recreation or Commerce in Fur.

Conibear traps, snares, cage and box traps, nets, suitcase-type live beaver traps and common rat and mouse traps may be used by individuals to take authorized mammals for purposes unrelated to recreation or commerce in fur, including, but not limited to, the protection of property._

If you haven't used a connibear before--beware the power the have. I have several 10x10 connibears, and the tool to set them with. Like old age, they ain't for wimps.


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## farmerjan (Sep 23, 2016)

Yes a .22 will kill a coyote if the person doing the shooting is a good shot. Have killed several here in Va with a .22.  Like the distance with the .22 rather than the .410 shotgun.  Yeah, I'm a wimp now, got tired of having my shoulders aching with the .12 gauge and didn't have a .16 gauge, so just went to a .22/.410 over-under and like it.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 23, 2016)

Yes a. 22 will take out a coyote but I would prefer something larger. Plus I like them to know what the noise is,  so louder is good.  The coyotes avoid us because we shoot fairly often.  So far anyway... 

We also have a. 22/410 over under. It's fantastic!


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## soarwitheagles (Sep 23, 2016)

babs,

A .22 well placed [most recommend a brain shot] can easily take down a coyote, but most people do not recommend it simply due to the risk of injuring it rather than destroying/killing it.

If you are concerned about the loudness of a shotgun, then another alternative [expensive] would be a PCP air rifle.  Unfortunately, they can be quite expensive for some of the larger calibers. Sam Yang Dragon Claw's .50 caliber can drop just about any animal, but it costs $600, and that does not include a scuba tank for refills.

I own a Benjamin Marauder .25 that shoots single holes at 70 yards [it will shoot 10 pellets all through the same original hole].  Benjamin also now makes 9mm, .357 cal, and I believe a .45 too.

Here's a link to their .357 cal Bulldog.

https://www.crosman.com/connect/ben...57-trophy-game-hunting-air-rifle/?hvid=47IZar

If you do not have nearby neighbors, and noise is not an issue, your best bet would be the shotgun, or a larger caliber rifle with a really nice scope on it.

What I like about the 25. Benjamin Marauder:

It is nearly impossible to miss anything under 70 yards when at rest [I can choose which eyeball to hit when I hunt turkeys with it]
It is so quiet that the loudest noise you hear is when the pellet hits the mark
You can pick them up with a nice zoom scope for under $500 during Christmas sales
The ammo [pellets] are easy to find and purchase and cost only pennies

Finally, my friend and local rancher has already lost 27 lambs in one month this year to coyotes.  He keeps his sheep over near Davis, CA.  He hired someone to shoot them.

Ebay has incredibly deals on the steel leg traps, but the State of California has terribly strict laws and punishments if you are caught using them, so I cannot recommend it.

One last suggestion: have you considered installing some well placed HD IP cameras to discover the coyotes habits and patterns?  We have our entire property under 24 hour day and night IR surveillance so we will know who, what, when, etc. some animal or person trespasses upon our property.

Just some food for thought...and trying to help by sharing some ideas to stop the free food for coyotes!

Soar


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## babsbag (Sep 23, 2016)

I have some IP cameras that I use in  the barn during kidding season, but they don't have storage so only good if I am awake and watching. We have one trail cam...saw a grey squirrel 

I have a .22 handgun and rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun. DH would like one of those air rifles, he has talked about them quite a bit so I might have to look into those some more. He isn't here most of the time so if I buy something it is really for me.

I think that the fact that the two neighbors I used to have are gone has made a difference in the predator load. My dogs used to have back up from neighbor dogs, plus lights at other houses and just more activity. I am pretty much alone out here now...nice...but not. 

Hot wire around the goat pen is not working well tonight so the dogs will be busy. The fence around the chicken yard is hot.  Hot wires are great, except when they don't work, which seems to always be noticed in the evening. Searched and searched for the short and can't find it.


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## greybeard (Sep 24, 2016)

I don't let them get that close. A flat trajectory Weatherby .270 with a 3x9x 40 Busnell  scope will reach out and touch 'em using cheap Remington core-lokt 130gr.  Recoil is a bit significant, but managable--even my 5'2" tall wife uses it, but doesn't like it because it is a bolt ation. My 7.62x39 SKS iron sights  does a pretty good job too. Took a lot of dialing in to get the front sight right on the sks, but if done right, it's almost as accurate as the .270, and a lot lighter tho pretty much limited to 200 yard accurate range. Noise-wise, everyone 1/2 mile around knows my .270.
I learned to shoot at the best--@ Edson Range's 200, 300, 500 yard lines. 500 yards is 80 ft beyond one full roll of barb wire--80 ft further than 1/4 mile. Targets were 40" tall, with an 8" round bullseye IIRC. Nowadays, they are human silhouettes and optics are used.


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## babsbag (Sep 24, 2016)

I don't understand shooting at human silhouettes; it bothers me a little. At the range I go to they even have silhouettes that look like Osama bin Lamen. 

Of the few guns we own I let DH choose and buy, I can shoot and usually hit my target but never had a real interest in what kind of gun I was shooting. Maybe time for a change.


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## greybeard (Sep 24, 2016)

babsbag said:


> I don't understand shooting at human silhouettes; it bothers me a little. At the range I go to they even have silhouettes that look like Osama bin Lamen.
> 
> Of the few guns we own I let DH choose and buy, I can shoot and usually hit my target but never had a real interest in what kind of gun I was shooting. Maybe time for a change.


Edson Range is at Camp Pendelton California, USMC Base, and where I went to Infantry Training Regiment in 1969. A year later I would be shooting at and be shot at by the real thing in I Corps, S. Vietnam. None of us on either side wore bulls eyes, and often were.. just silhouettes.
The dark square window with the m-60 sticking out just above the door was my home for 13 months.
http://www.vvmf.org/userfiles/remembrances/rem_uploads/CH-53.jpg


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## OneFineAcre (Sep 24, 2016)

Babs
Use the .22 since you already have it
If you were going to buy something .223 is a preferred varmit caliber or something in that range
A lot less recoil than a larger caliber


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## babsbag (Sep 24, 2016)

@greybeard  Glad that you are around to remember that "home". I can't even imagine. 

I have put up a few more fences on my land so the coyote has to work a little harder for his snacks. Makes in a pain for me to get from place to place but it is what it is for now. Sometimes the budget requires that I make do with what I have.


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## soarwitheagles (Sep 24, 2016)

Babs,

Don't listen to OneFineAcre...

Instead, see if Greybeard can come to your ranch with the M-60 with night sights mounted in the Sikorsky while wearing IR goggles.  Afterwards, I am certain it would be very difficult to find even one coyote in all of Anderson... 

Ok, just joking.  Actually, I really like OneFineAcre's suggestion!

And I would like to add to his suggestion...

Consider using CCI's .22lr Stinger or Velocitor rounds.  Not sure what type of .22LR rifle you have, but you also may want to know the distance you can accurately place a head shot with the rifle.

I have the inexpensive and well known Ruger 10/22 with a CenterPoint Rifle Scope 3-9x40mm.  At 100 yards, it is incredibly accurate, and you should be able to easily take down a coyote with a well placed head/brain shot.

Finally, if you do desire to purchase a .223 with the AR format [great varmint gun], better get it fast...Gavin Newsom's new form of absolute insanity is scheduled to take place January 1st, 2017, and if his twisted thinking and insanity wins, you will no longer be able to purchase a .223 rifle with the AR format in the lovely state of California ever again.

You do not understand human silhouettes at the gun ranges.  I will be honest with you.  For many people, human silhouettes at the gun range is one of the first steps to help people "get over" the initial shock of shooting at a real live person.  After it becomes normal and natural for them, the next step is to help train people to place lethal shots in either the head [the "T" zone located in the ocular-cranial cavity], or the torso [thoracic cavity].

Shooting at human silhouettes is a must for anyone training to be in law enforcement, military, professional self-defense or to be a responsible CCW holder.

I have never seen a silhouette of the President at a gun range.  No matter how terrible the President is, I feel having a human silhouette of the President and shooting at it is disrespectful, unhealthy, dishonorable, and downright sinful.

Instead of shooting at our leaders, we need to be shooting prayers up to heaven for them, no matter how terrible they are...

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. [1 Tim. 2:1-3].

Hope this helps!


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## Baymule (Sep 25, 2016)

@babsbag my favorite rifle was a Remington 22-250. I could drop a running deer with one shot. It packs a whallop, but doesn't kick real bad. I also used to play a little when bored in the deer stand......I shot AT squirrels, not hitting them, but killed them. I placed the crosshairs right in front of their nose and squeezed the trigger. The velocity of the bullet going by their heads killed them. Squirrel for supper! LOL

@greybeard God bless you. My brother was a disabled Viet Nam vet. He died several years ago.......I miss him. God bless all our veterans and those in active service.


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## babsbag (Sep 25, 2016)

@soarwitheagles I do agree that there is a certain group of gun owners where the silhouette target is important, but for me I just want to hit the ground squirrel or coyote and pray that I never need to fire on a human. There is just a small part of me that wonders if the silhouette target desensitizes a person to the horrific act of shooting at a person. Granted it would have to be a lot of target practice but it still seems to trivialize lives. 

@Baymule, I don't think that I am that good of a shot to shoot at a squirrel and not hit them. I threw a rock at a cat once to scare it off and nailed it right between the eyes, that is the way my luck seems to swing.


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## Baymule (Sep 25, 2016)




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## soarwitheagles (Sep 25, 2016)

babsbag said:


> @soarwitheagles I do agree that there is a certain group of gun owners where the silhouette target is important, but for me I just want to hit the ground squirrel or coyote and pray that I never need to fire on a human. There is just a small part of me that wonders if the silhouette target desensitizes a person to the horrific act of shooting at a person. Granted it would have to be a lot of target practice but it still seems to trivialize lives.
> 
> @Baymule, I don't think that I am that good of a shot to shoot at a squirrel and not hit them. I threw a rock at a cat once to scare it off and nailed it right between the eyes, that is the way my luck seems to swing.



Babs,

I also pray I never need to fire on a human, but, should I ever be placed in a situation where it is necessary, then I want the best training available on the planet.  Yes, shooting at a human silhouette target does desensitize a person to shooting at a person.  In fact, that is one of the main initial purposes of it.

Not everyone is willing to use lethal force, even when it is necessary to protect oneself and/or family.  I have already worked that through a long time ago.  I will do everything possible to avoid an armed confrontation with any human and we have been trained to do so.  On the other hand, should I ever be placed in a situation where there is no other way out, and the perpetrator is choosing actions that could lead to death or major bodily harm of myself, my family, or an innocent, then it is time to make a decisive choice to engage that person with lethal force without delay.

Like I said, not everyone is willing to do this.  Many people would rather die instead of engage someone with lethal force.  And that is their right and prerogative and I do not think less of them.  Others, simply do not want to even think about entering into a life/death situation, so they do nothing to prepare.  Personally, I believe that is a form of denial.  I refuse to join those two camps...and I say this after being held at gun point, robbed, beaten, etc. in the past.

Also, I work in Stockton five days a week, one of the most dangerous, crime ridden cities in the nation...I do not stress much about it, but to be honest with you, there are parts of Stockton where I do not feel safe.  I do my best to avoid these areas, but, unfortunately I must drive to and then work in one of those areas .  The truth is, we cannot control other people's actions.  But we can do our part to be prepared.  I have done my part to prepare myself should the occasion ever arise.

Hope this helps!


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## babsbag (Sep 26, 2016)

Stockton...I lived in Lodi for awhile and went to college in Stockton and even 30 years ago it was a tough city.  

I only hope and pray that if the day comes that I need to make a tough decision that I will make the right one. It is honestly something that in my mind I know what I would do, but in reality could I?  So far in my life I have never had to make that choice but I know that if it happens it will most likely be quick and not much time to think about it.


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## Bruce (Sep 26, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> .....
> Also, I work in Stockton five days a week, one of the most dangerous, crime ridden cities in the nation...I do not stress much about it, but to be honest with you, there are parts of Stockton where I do not feel safe.  I do my best to avoid these areas, but, unfortunately I must drive to and then work in one of those areas .  The truth is, we cannot control other people's actions.  But we can do our part to be prepared.  I have done my part to prepare myself should the occasion ever arise.
> 
> Hope this helps!



Easier said than done I know but in that situation I'm pretty sure I would move somewhere I didn't feel the need to carry a gun to think I MIGHT get home alive every day. Or at least get a different job that didn't take me into such an area. Life can be hard enough without constantly looking over your shoulder for danger.


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## NH homesteader (Sep 26, 2016)

I carry a gun everywhere I go that isn't a gun free zone.  I'm not paranoid or looking over my shoulder.  I just think it's better to have  one and not need it than...  Well you all know what I'm saying. And I live in a very safe area.


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## Jean Derby (Sep 26, 2016)

I know elec


soarwitheagles said:


> Hi and happy holidays to all!
> 
> We live in Central Valley, CA.  We just recently began our adventure with ranching and farming.  We live on a 15+ acre ranch.  Our /neighbors/friends have a large flock of the American Blackbelly sheep.  But they lost 17 baby lambs in 3 weeks to coyotes.
> 
> ...




I know electric fence will keep them away. 
Also....A great pyrenees is what my friend uses. And he is just a warning device so they can get the gun ready. My best advice would be to just keep an eye out.  And use an electric fence.


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## babsbag (Sep 26, 2016)

The chickens and ducks now have an electric top wire in place with a bottom one going in soon. I still have one fence that I share with my neighbor that I am not sure how to electrify since it is his fence. I may have to run another fence inside of that one to get the wire on it. It is in a gully so a pain to work on.  

I would rather dispatch the critter if I ever see him.


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## babsbag (Sep 26, 2016)

Jean Derby said:


> Also....A great pyrenees is what my friend uses. And he is just a warning device so they can get the gun ready. My best advice would be to just keep an eye out. And use an electric fence.



I have one, but he lives with the goats and I am not sure he is duck safe. Chickens yes, but ducks are new to him.


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## farmerjan (Sep 26, 2016)

babsbag said:


> The chickens and ducks now have an electric top wire in place with a bottom one going in soon. I still have one fence that I share with my neighbor that I am not sure how to electrify since it is his fence. I may have to run another fence inside of that one to get the wire on it. It is in a gully so a pain to work on.
> 
> I would rather dispatch the critter if I ever see him.



Just put electric fence insulators on your side of the fence that you say is the neighbors.  There is no reason why there should be a problem as you are preventing your animals from "causing damage to his fence" which is pro-active, and there would not be much of an expense.  You can get the kind that use the double headed nails so you can actually pull the nails out and reuse the insulators. Cannot imagine anyone fussing about that.


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## babsbag (Sep 26, 2016)

My neighbor wouldn't care, I have insulators on his T-posts elsewhere. But I wanted the coyote or fox to feel the bite before they got to my side of the fence. It is field fencing so pretty big squares too, I think a fox could get through them. I would like a wire at ground level and about 15" on his side.


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## farmerjan (Sep 26, 2016)

Put it on your side.  If he can get through the fencing then it must be 12 " stays;  but he will not just "run through it" so as he is working his way through he will be moving a little slower and will really feel the zap as he is coming through.  Problem is you won't know exactly at which height  hole he will be coming through, regardless of which side you put it.  I would make sure it is midway across the hole so he gets hit.  If you put it on his side, then a fox will just as easily go under it as on your side.  They will go low sooner than go high. Same with the coyote, he will go under before he will go over if he can.


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## babsbag (Sep 26, 2016)

I don't think they are 12" stays, they are smaller at the bottom too but they are a lot bigger than my 2x4 no climb.  Since this is in a gully I will get those step in stakes and run wire back and forth about every 6" or so and that ought to make them think about it a few times. Thanks for the input.


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## farmerjan (Sep 27, 2016)

Probably 6" stays so even a fox would think twice except if they were desperate to get through, and if it is graduated then you are looking at something like 2" up to 4 or 6" between the top couple of wires. Not saying they can't get through, but going under would be preferable to them.


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## Kusanar (Oct 17, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> The Fabulous Fadjur was one heck of a beautiful Arabian.  Glad you were able to see this horse!
> 
> Yes, I hear you on the 5ft. verses 4ft. fence.  We had dinner tonight with a good friend who is a successful sheep rancher here and he said the exact same thing!  I will go tomorrow and see the price difference at TS.  Thanks again!


I'm not done catching up on this thread, but I just saw this post. I have a gelding that is a Fadjur great grandson and looks like a fat version of him!


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## greybeard (Oct 18, 2016)

Most animals, if shocked behind the eyes or head, will move forward or if already moving forward, will continue to do so. If shocked in front of their eyes, they will back up or stop moving forward.


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## babsbag (Oct 20, 2016)

So it appears that the coyote problem has been solved with repaired fencing and a top hot wire.  I bottom hot wire will be going on tomorrow as quite possibly something smaller is still getting in with the chickens...or I have a hawk problem. I still have chickens disappearing without a trace. 

I have had two chickens killed by hawks in the past and they ate them at the site of the kill, they did not carry them off. Eagles are not around here so this would be either a Red Tail hawk or a Cooper's Hawk. Most of what I read say that they can't carry off a full grown chicken. Anybody have any experience with hawks and chickens?  Mine free range on about 1/4 acre so a little hard to make it a covered run. They do have some brush for shelter, but there are tall trees close and the hawks would have a good view. This is happening during the day. I have a lot of chickens so can't say for sure how many are gone but I know for certain that this summer  I have had 3 ducks, 3 Polish, and 8 Black Copper Marans disappear without a trace.  Guess I need to actually count the birds on the roost at night.  

Time for another LGD. I might move my older female into the chicken area during the day, but need to make sure she is duck safe first.  Mia (LGD puppy) will miss her though.


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## Bruce (Oct 20, 2016)

As I understand it a hawk can't carry off a full grown large fowl so would have to eat it fairly close to the kill site. Foxes will carry them off leaving a pile of feathers where they were killed (at least in my sad experience). Any way a fox could get inside the fence? Those suckers are stealthy. When I've lost a bird to a fox, it had to cross 150' of open field before the grass started to grow in the spring. With no guard animals, they went unnoticed until it was too late. Kills were fairly close to buildings.


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## babsbag (Oct 20, 2016)

The fox would have to be going under. My land is not level and this fence has a few places where is doesn't touch the ground entirely, but we are talking a 2-3" gap. I have hung scraps of chain-link fencing off of places that have bigger gaps and that works well as it just lays on the ground and gets incorporated into the weeds and duff and they can't push it up. I found a few places last night that I was suspect of and will be taking care of those today. It would also have to be going through or over hog panel fencing as I put in a double line of defense when the coyotes were having snacks. 

In 7 years of raising chickens that lived with my goats I never lost one to any predator other than my own LGD puppies, however the dairy made me move them out of the field. I would rather deal with a ground predator than aerial ones and right now I am thinking that I need more game cams. I am also going to make the chickens some run in covers. I have a lot of scrap 2x4s for the frames so just figuring out what to use for the cover.  I can get "blow" plywood fairly cheap so I might use that. 

I think I will build a scarecrow too and hand some CDs on strings and maybe even try the owl. But it is just so strange that they are just disappearing but I do have hawks around here, I hear them daily.


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## soarwitheagles (Oct 20, 2016)

Babs, 
You sure have a lot of thieves showing up at your place!  And I know the pain and frustration of losing chickens...

We keep all our chickens inside a chicken wire coop and chicken house.  Their total living area is approximately 360 sq. ft. [16'x20'].

You ask if anyone has any experience with hawks and chickens...well, here is a funny story...

A friend who has lived in the area for decades called me.  He was getting burned out on his free range chickens because they kept increasing in numbers [he had over 100 of them].  He asked if I would come over and take some.  I told him I did not want to mix his chickens with our chickens.  He assured me his chickens were "free range" chickens and would not be needing a chicken coop.  I shared with him my concerns about predators.  He told me his chickens know how to sleep high up in trees and that he never lost a chicken to a predator.  He lives about 35 minutes from us.  I agreed to pick up 15 of his chickens for an experiment.

In the first 24 hours we lost two chickens.  After the second day we lost 3 more.  Within 7 days, all of his wonderful and smart "free range" chickens went to chicken heaven quite rapidly.

Here is what I learned:

Came home one day and discovered an enormous hawk [wing span over 4 ft.] just finishing up his last few bites of a warm delicious free range chicken.  It was the largest hawk I have ever seen.

Smaller hawks began to patrol our property and make loud screeching noises [and believe it or not, they still do it to this day].

I believe some monstrous owls picked off a few of the other chickens.  Then we found some chickens laying nearby with only the heads missing...we were told this was the work of dastardly skunks.

I also believe a number of the chickens were eaten by sneaky foxes [we began to see lots of foxes at night time].

Needless to say, we provided a wonderful seven day feast for many predators here at our ranch.

I also learned some valuable lessons:

1. Free range chickens at our place was not a very good idea.
2. Some hawks grow much larger than I ever imagined.
3. Skunks are both selfish and picky [they only ate the head].
4. We made our friend very happy because now he doesn't have so many "free range" chickens to look after.

This really was a positive learning experience!


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## babsbag (Oct 20, 2016)

WOW @soarwitheagles you were a popular diner there for a few days.  I did a chicken count in the coop tonight and I have 51 chickens and 2 ducks.  I also have numerous chickens that sleep in trees. So this is what I discovered tonight, and I am not happy.  Of chickens that I know I have/had I am missing 2 Buff Brahma roos and 2 hens. 8 Black Copper Marans, 4 Polish, 4 or 5 Red Sex Links/Golden Comets, 3 ducks, 2 or 3 Black Australorps, and 1 Barred Rock.  From outside of the coop I am missing 5 guineas, 4 chicks, and one HUGE Easter Egger roo that has been my barnyard mascot for years. 






So I am at a loss. The coop is predator proof, built 4' off the ground, solid floor, solid walls and roof. Nothing is getting in there. And the rooster sleeps high in the trees so no ground predator took him at night.  I have not seen any large hawks and that roo and the Brahmas were big. I am sure I had a coyote making early morning raids but the coop opens late now in the morning, and the fence is like a hot Fort Knox. I know I have lost the roo, one Polish, and the 3 of the Marans since fixing the fence and installing a hot wire. (Bottom wire went on today). The fence in the ravine is field fencing as it belongs to my neighbor. I think I will be running 2x4 no climb inside of that section tomorrow. I don't know if a fox could get through it as is or not.  My property is entirely fenced now so nothing is taking a casual walk, if they want it they have to go over or under a fence and most of it is hot.  

So my other  thought is an owl that hunts during the day???  In the past I have heard screech owls and Great Horned Owls so I know they are around here but by 9 AM they should be sleeping. 

I am not looking forward to keeping the chickens confined to a covered run. The leaves landing on the mesh roof will be a nightmare all of its own and the ducks will miss their pond

I need  an LGD for chickens.  After 8 years with no losses this is a little unnerving.


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2016)

I am thinking fox. Will be running another hot wire at about 8" and making sure that the fence around the chickens is a hot ground. I know the one around the goats is, but this one most likely is not.


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## Baymule (Oct 21, 2016)

Sounds like a fox or a bobcat. Both are sneaky, but a bobcat is pure stealth. Or an owl that can't tell time, or maybe it can and knows when the door opens.  I agree, you need a LGD with the poultry. That's a lot of birds to lose, time to close the diner and make the predator look elsewhere. Sorry about your birds.


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2016)

Bobcat...hmmm, never though about that. I saw one a few years ago so I know we have them too. More fencing to do today. UGH. 

The one that hurts the most to lose was my rogue tree sleeping rooster. He was hatched here years ago and has been my barnyard alarm system for the rogue hens for years. He just belonged. 

I am looking for a dog but a pup can takes months (years) to train to poultry and there is no way to know. I might get another pup for Mia to chum with and put my old girl in with the chickens...just afraid that she will be sad.


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## greybeard (Oct 21, 2016)

I have seen lots and lots of owls in daylight hours, even into the afternoon. If they don't feed during the night, they aren't going to just go to sleep and hope for better results the next night. They'll do whatever it takes to survive especially if they are raising young--day/night--doesn't matter. Hawks are the same way--normally a day hunter, they will hunt at night as well if they don't score in daylight.
Anything sleeping in a tree is easy pickins for owl and hawks alike, and both are smart--they know what time those gates open same as the poultry does..


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2016)

I have quite a few rogue roosters that sleep in trees that I would love to get rid of so why did it take the  one I like ? 

I do believe that an owl could have taken the one from the tree, same with the guineas that disappeared. But today when I was putting up more hot wire and fencing to reinforce my neighbors field fencing I found a spot where his peeler core fence post broke off at the ground and was swinging in the breeze. At a glance is looks like a nice tight fence but up close it is entirely different and any of the common chicken predators could get through there, probably all at the same time.   There is a nice trail pointing the way too, might as well just put a sign up. I may get up early tomorrow morning and see what tries to get through and for sure a game cam is going there.

My goat pasture fence is about 4' from this entry way and today I found Francis laying right at the corner of the two fields; I wonder if he knows.


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## Bruce (Oct 21, 2016)

soarwitheagles said:


> Babs,
> You sure have a lot of thieves showing up at your place!  And I know the pain and frustration of losing chickens...
> 
> We keep all our chickens inside a chicken wire coop and chicken house.  Their total living area is approximately 360 sq. ft. [16'x20'].
> ...



Sorry for your losses and those of @babsbag . Head and crop only is a raccoon trait, I buried one of my Cubalayas found that way in a not predator safe coop 2 days after we rescued her from a coon that went up a tree when we went outside at 3AM after hearing the chicken scream. We thought she had wandered off 2 weeks earlier. Instead she was brooding half a dozen non fertile eggs(no rooster) in the bushes next to the barn. Raccoons are VERY good tree climbers, it would be nothing for one to get up to a night blind chicken in a tree. I think a game camera is in order so you can see what is wandering around your animals at night.


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## greybeard (Oct 21, 2016)

chupacabra............


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## Baymule (Oct 21, 2016)




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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2016)

I have had raccoons get a few broodies and they always leave a mess of feathers and body parts behind. These chickens just disappeared. 

I agree with a game cam, the thing is I need more than the one I own and they aren't cheap. 

While reinforcing the fence today I found that a peeler core post had broken off at the ground. It is on the edge of the ravine and was under a lot of tension and when it broke it just popped right up and left a nice gap under the fence. The fence isn't that old and the neighbor did a great job installing it so I was very surprised to see this. From a distance it looks just fine but up close and personal every predator in the neighborhood could come under that fence and probably all of them at one time, the gap was huge.  There was an obvious trail. It has been repaired and hot wire has been installed. 

I just opened this area to the chickens this spring, before this there was another fence between them and any land based predator, guess that is why I never lost any.


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2016)

could be a chupacabra; I have that kind of luck.


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## Latestarter (Oct 21, 2016)

Based on no evidence left behind, I would think "cat" of some sort, most likely bobcat. A bobcat could very easily carry off a LF bird and leave no evidence behind whatsoever. Most attacks from the air would leave at least some feathers behind from the struggle. And of course skunk/coon/etc attacks tend to leave lots of evidence that they occurred. Foxes could go either way, as could coyotes I guess. Whatever is doing the killing, I hope you either block it successfully or kill it. Sorry for those tremendous losses. That's a lot of birds to lose.


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## babsbag (Oct 21, 2016)

I have/had a lot of chickens and I never do a head count. Looking back at it now I recall thinking that there seemed to be more room on the roosts.   I hatch out a lot of chicks and have many mixed breed chickens that look very similar so it is hard to notice that one is missing. It was the ducks disappearing that made me take notice. Egg production is way down too but they are molting so I just figured it was that. I am made at the predator buy also mad at myself for not noticing this sooner. 

I let my male LGD in the chicken field today just to see what he would do, he hasn't been with chickens in almost 2 years. He didn't chase any but the birds were pretty panicked that this big white dog was running in their field. Then he tried to get in the coop through the pop door, nope, he doesn't fit. Silly dog. I would like to give him access to that area at night and early mornings but to do that I have to leave a gate open to another field and that could be another set up problems having that gate open at night. When the critter comes in to get a chicken I really don't want it to have direct access to the goats. I trust my dogs, but I like keeping the predators on the outside of the field.


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## Mike CHS (Oct 22, 2016)

Babs - some friends have a lot of bamboo on their place and place enough in the ground to hang fishing line in a zig-zag over their chicken run.  I don't know if that would be possible at your place.


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## babsbag (Oct 22, 2016)

My chicken run is about 1/4 acre. When they goats and chickens lived together we had fishing line across the pasture and CDs hanging from it. I read though that hawks don't like goats so maybe that helped. I also had the dogs in the field and I know that they don't like hawks or vultures.   The field the chickens are in now really does have a lot of cover, more than the goat field had. I think that these attacks were coming from the gap under the fence that I missed. I am kicking myself for not seeing that, but I still want to live with my head in the sand and be amazed that these chickens disappeared during the day. That is one brazen predator as I am outside more often than not.  Hopefully I have put an end to it, but I am still seriously considering another dog.


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## Bruce (Oct 23, 2016)

Clearly you need another dog! 

I'm sorry you are getting on yourself for not seeing that gap but I understand it because I know *I* am as responsible as the coon that killed the Cubalaya in a non predator safe coop (inside the barn but the coon got in through woodchuck tunnels). However having found that gap and posting it here is helpful since I have some fence to put in that will go over some "lumpy" areas so I will know to look for any "accidental" bottom gaps and deal with them.

And I learned something new - "peeler core". Had to look it up. Now I know to never buy a peeler core post, or any 4x4, 6x6, etc that includes the center part of the tree. Thanks!


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## babsbag (Oct 23, 2016)

I have found that the best way to close in gaps under my fences is with scraps of chain link fencing laid on the ground and tied to the bottom of the fence. The chain link just molds to the uneven earth, it is fairly heavy and eventually it just get covered in duff and becomes one with the earth.  On a gap that is 3" I will use maybe a foot wide piece of chain link, it works really well.  This area that was about 8" I used a scrap of stock panel, chain link, and hot wire. Since it was a known entrance I wanted to make it very secure.


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## Bruce (Oct 23, 2016)

I can believe that. I made an outdoor run about 18' square with chicken wire for my 2012 chicks before they were old enough to range. Pulled it a month ago to use as "keep the chickens in the barnyard" material on the existing (poor) 3' - 4' fence. WHAT a job getting it free from all the grass that had grown through the openings anchoring it down.


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## carrie palmer (Nov 11, 2016)

First check for the coyote tracks so that the trap can be set. Usually coyotes are trapped using dirt hole procedure . Recently, I was at my wits end in attempting to trap coyotes playing havoc in my backyard. I have a pretty large poultry farm. I adopted few DIY measures, which I found online and tried setting traps but on all occasions they outsmarted me. As  a last resort, I sought the help of wildlife removal service, a1 checkmate (http://removethewild.com/services/) . If next time they venture into my backyard, I ll have a go at them. One effective trap, is to take a firm grip of the paw of the coyote which cannot move until the trapper comes close and loosens it. Quite risky for novice trappers! Best would be cage trap or lethal trap. remember to check for the rules of conservation departments of various states. Some suggest using bait, lure or scent. Make sure that you clean the trap thoroughly after you are done with the trapping.


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## Bossroo (Nov 11, 2016)

carrie palmer said:


> First check for the coyote tracks so that the trap can be set. Usually coyotes are trapped using dirt hole procedure . Recently, I was at my wits end in attempting to trap coyotes playing havoc in my backyard. I have a pretty large poultry farm. I adopted few DIY measures, which I found online and tried setting traps but on all occasions they outsmarted me. As  a last resort, I sought the help of wildlife removal service, a1 checkmate (http://removethewild.com/services/) . If next time they venture into my backyard, I ll have a go at them. One effective trap, is to take a firm grip of the paw of the coyote which cannot move until the trapper comes close and loosens it. Quite risky for novice trappers! Best would be cage trap or lethal trap. remember to check for the rules of conservation departments of various states. Some suggest using bait, lure or scent. Make sure that you clean the trap thoroughly after you are done with the trapping.


Totally wishfull thinking at it's worst.   SSS !!!


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## babsbag (Nov 11, 2016)

It seems that my electric fence and making sure the bottom of the fence is secure has stopped my thief. I am still looking for an LGD to live with the poultry but for now it seems that the problem is solved.


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## Bruce (Nov 11, 2016)




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## Mike CHS (Nov 11, 2016)

That has to be a big relief.


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## babsbag (Nov 18, 2016)

I saw the coyote at about 11 AM  this morning. He was about 100' from me, casually looking at my chickens on the other side of the fence. I didn't have my gun so he is still alive and well, darn it. I was hoping he would try to breech the fence but he didn't. I was really hoping he would get over or under it as that would have given me a chance to get the gun. He finally realized that he was being watched and casually turned and walked away, no  sign of fear at all. It was a very pretty coyote, well fed....I wonder where it has been eating so well? 

After he left I found my kitty and brought her inside. She had been hiding under a trailer, about 50' away from the 'yote.


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## Baymule (Nov 19, 2016)

Babs, with a bold coyote like that, you ought to be packing when you go outside. He isn't afraid of you so you could get close enough to shoot him.


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## babsbag (Nov 19, 2016)

Yes, I do need to take my gun out with me. I was literally 15' from my house, the last thing I expected to see on a nice sunny morning was a coyote. I knew he had been stealing chickens in the day time, but I was thinking more like dawn, not 11 AM.  I will have my eyes open for him to be in the same area around the same time, I think that they are creatures of habit.


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## Baymule (Nov 20, 2016)

It would be mean to the chicken, but maybe you could put one in a cage, stake it down, and use for coyote lure? Or get liver, heart or other meat, let it "age" a few days and use it for lure?


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## Padre23 (May 4, 2017)

You have 4 LGD's but a coyote is still giving you problems?


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## samssimonsays (May 4, 2017)

Padre23 said:


> You have 4 LGD's but a coyote is still giving you problems?


They are smart creatures and only getting gutsier but when the dogs are in the field with the goats he has a prime opportunity for a snack on the chickens. Just because you have LGD's doesn't make it fool proof but it sure makes your problem less. Do you have LGD's and livestock that they protect? If so and they are not in the same pasture as the dogs it sure makes it hard for them to protect, doesn't it?


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## Padre23 (May 4, 2017)

samssimonsays said:


> They are smart creatures and only getting gutsier but when the dogs are in the field with the goats he has a prime opportunity for a snack on the chickens. Just because you have LGD's doesn't make it fool proof but it sure makes your problem less. Do you have LGD's and livestock that they protect? If so and they are not in the same pasture as the dogs it sure makes it hard for them to protect, doesn't it?



Then it would seem appropriate to leave at least 1 of those LGD's with the chickens.  And yes, I'm quite familiar with how gutsy coyotes can be...I've dealt with them quite a bit where I live.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 4, 2017)

Well, I don't know about the you @Padre23 - but if I have a choice between having my dogs protect my chickens or my goats - goats win hands down!


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## Padre23 (May 4, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Well, I don't know about the you @Padre23 - but if I have a choice between having my dogs protect my chickens or my goats - goats win hands down!


All right.  I guess I don't understand the situation you're dealing with.

It sounded like you, or whoever was having this problem, was dealing with 1, maybe 2, coyotes going after chickens.  If that's the case, 3 LGD's with the goats, and 1 with the Chickens (assuming there are 4 LGD's total) would seem like a reasonable solution.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 4, 2017)

It wasn't me that had the problem - what I stated was hypothetical - but exactly what I would do under the same circumstances.  Coyotes are notorious for baiting dogs.  One LGD would likely triumph over one coyote - but if there are several more waiting then the LGD would probably end up on the wrong end of the fight.  LGD's do their best work when there are several of them.

Most of the people on this forum know their situation and what works best for them.


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## samssimonsays (May 4, 2017)

I agree with FEM. LGD's do better in teams and the goat herd is substantial at a dairy so they come first.


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## Padre23 (May 4, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> It wasn't me that had the problem - what I stated was hypothetical - but exactly what I would do under the same circumstances.  Coyotes are notorious for baiting dogs.  One LGD would likely triumph over one coyote - but if there are several more waiting then the LGD would probably end up on the wrong end of the fight.  LGD's do their best work when there are several of them.
> 
> Most of the people on this forum know their situation and what works best for them.



All right.  Then the OP should put 2 LGD's with the goats and 2 with the chickens.  My initial point was that with 4 LGD's (at least that was listed in the OP's signature), the OP has some options and flexibility in dealing with the coyotes.

And yeah, coyotes can gang up on dogs, but that's more of a worst case scenario.  Most of the time they're on the prowl as singles or in pairs.  I've know of a sheep farmer in my area who runs 1 single LGD (an Akbash I believe) with a herd of 100-200 sheep with no problems.  And we live in a coyote-heavy area.


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## frustratedearthmother (May 4, 2017)

As I recall the ages of the GP's aren't listed.  Most of us who have been here and have had conversations with the OP know that she has two very young dogs.  Neither she nor anyone else who knows anything is not about to send a pup to it's death against a coyote. 

Have you ever owned an LGD - or a goat?  Where is your level of "expertise" coming from?


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## samssimonsays (May 4, 2017)

So, do you have personal experience with LGD's, how they work with and bond as a team and livestock?


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## Padre23 (May 4, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> As I recall the ages of the GP's aren't listed.  Most of us who have been here and have had conversations with the OP know that she has two very young dogs.  Neither she nor anyone else who knows anything is not about to send a pup to it's death against a coyote.
> 
> Have you ever owned an LGD - or a goat?  Where is your level of "expertise" coming from?



Spent a little time on some sheep farms. 

I don't know anything about the OP's farm or her dogs.  That's why I asked my original question.  

The farms in my area, some of which run good-sized flocks, run 1, maybe 2, dogs and that seems to work with few if any issues.  The coyotes in this area also get a lot of pressure from local hunters, so the instinct to stay away from human civilization is fairly strong.  Not proclaiming that is "expertise" by any stretch.  But I've spent enough time in coyote country to know a bit about their tendencies.


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## samssimonsays (May 4, 2017)

Padre23 said:


> I don't know anything about the OP's farm or her dogs. That's why I asked my original question.


I believe it was HOW the question was asked, not why it was. 



Padre23 said:


> You have 4 LGD's but a coyote is still giving you problems?


Doesn't exactly come off as a "question" but more of a poke to stir up the embers of a post that was from November.


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## Goat Whisperer (May 4, 2017)

Padre23 said:


> You have 4 LGD's but a coyote is still giving you problems?





Padre23 said:


> Then it would seem appropriate to leave at least 1 of those LGD's with the chickens.  And yes, I'm quite familiar with how gutsy coyotes can be...I've dealt with them quite a bit where I live.





Padre23 said:


> All right.  I guess I don't understand the situation you're dealing with.
> 
> It sounded like you, or whoever was having this problem, was dealing with 1, maybe 2, coyotes going after chickens.  If that's the case, 3 LGD's with the goats, and 1 with the Chickens (assuming there are 4 LGD's total) would seem like a reasonable solution.





Padre23 said:


> All right.  Then the OP should put 2 LGD's with the goats and 2 with the chickens.  My initial point was that with 4 LGD's (at least that was listed in the OP's signature), the OP has some options and flexibility in dealing with the coyotes.
> 
> And yeah, coyotes can gang up on dogs, but that's more of a worst case scenario.  Most of the time they're on the prowl as singles or in pairs.  I've know of a sheep farmer in my area who runs 1 single LGD (an Akbash I believe) with a herd of 100-200 sheep with no problems.  And we live in a coyote-heavy area.





Padre23 said:


> Spent a little time on some sheep farms.
> 
> I don't know anything about the OP's farm or her dogs.  That's why I asked my original question.
> 
> The farms in my area, some of which run good-sized flocks, run 1, maybe 2, dogs and that seems to work with few if any issues.  The coyotes in this area also get a lot of pressure from local hunters, so the instinct to stay away from human civilization is fairly strong.  Not proclaiming that is "expertise" by any stretch.  But I've spent enough time in coyote country to know a bit about their tendencies.



I will start off with what works for one farm may not work for another.
If the coyotes are as bad as you say they are (where your friend is located) you (they) either have a seriously overworked dog or you are exaggerating about the coyote population. I'm thinking it's the later 

Several members on here have had their LGdogs chewed up by coyotes. It does happen.

If it were as easy as putting "1 with the Chickens" don't you think the owner would have done so? If it were that simple it would have already been done.
Some dogs do not work well alone and need another canine companion. Others do well alone, but still need to be with actual livestock that have some bonding ability, not just a pen of chickens. A young dog might not cope very well when she is still a learning puppy. You need to look at the individual dog.
If you have ever seen the beauty of these dog working, if you have the right dogs paired together, that they work in harmony and work well together. I've seen it myself and it is a sight to behold. Taking a vital member of the "team" has consequences.

The amount of land is another thing. You do not know the amount of land these dogs are on.
If the chickens are in a small lot you will not have a happy dog, simply not enough for the dog.

We have dogs in every field. We still have coyotes get pretty close, but at least they aren't getting into the goat fields. In our part of the country, anyone who doesn't have LGD's lose animals. Our neighbor had 2 small dogs snatched (different occasions) off their porch by coyotes, the Rottweiler wasn't even enough to keep the coyotes off their porch...

This was found in between some of our goat fields, that all have LGD's. This area is/was walked daily. The coyotes got this deer and and ate it, the next day vultures came and got the little that was left over.






Friends of our a few miles away had coyotes up by their house, on their drive way, and close to their goats/chickens. They didn't have any loss as they have 4 LGDs in the area, however the owner had to go out several times in one night to go scare the coyotes off.

That is what I call a heavy coyote area.


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## soarwitheagles (May 4, 2017)

Wow, I am not gonna move to North Carolina unless I have a $10,000 night vision scope, drones patrolling with night vision, and a small army of people that can hit a bulls-eye at 1,000 yards on a consistent basis.


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## Southern by choice (May 4, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Wow, I am not gonna move to North Carolina unless I have a $10,000 night vision scope, drones patrolling with night vision, and a small army of people that can hit a bulls-eye at 1,000 yards on a consistent basis.



LOL it all depends where you live.


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## greybeard (May 8, 2017)

Coyotes around my place run in a pack almost every night. I've only seen a single twice. One was injured or diseased, and the other was in the middle of the 2011 drought. I killed the one with the swollen up leg.


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## soarwitheagles (May 8, 2017)

Greybeard, I would have wanted to kill all of em'.  Someone here must have taken out all the coyotes because we haven't seen any in quite a while.  

I do know of a neighbor with one of those night vision scopes that cost thousands of dollars...and at times I have heard what seems to be a 300 mag...and often in the middle of the night.  

I think it is my neighbor!

Wish I could afford one of those sniper rifles!


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## Red the butcher (May 10, 2017)

Here we can bait them and spot light them. They came on the farm once i emptied my PAP m92 ak47 variant on them. They have never been back in 5 years. They dont live far, i hear them almost every night but the don't set foot on my territory. They are actually pretty smart and if they understand that they are trespassing they stay right off. They know what waits for them here......


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## rodeogirl (May 17, 2017)

we can Spotlight and bait here also one of my friends will actually dig a hole in one of his  pastures and Let it sit for a few days he can normally trap about 10 to 15 coyotes


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## soarwitheagles (May 17, 2017)

Wow, I read your posts and keep wishing I lived in your state!


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## Rezchamp (Jun 2, 2017)

We had problems for years with coyotes after the "European BigBadWolf" thinking infected our area wiping out the wolves, bears and cougars(apex predators we fear and/or despise causing our frail human egos to compensate our inability to respect them by acts of killing them[just like a teenager in highschool saying "I ain't scared of you]).
It took several years for the wolf population to rebound. Almost 45 years actually. Since the return of Wolf, Cougar, Bear, ( the coyote population dropped to historic numbers. I have had Bear, Wolve and Cougar come through my area now for over 10 years and nary a 1 has taken any of my stock. Skunk, Mink, Weasel and now&then Coyote(that has evaded Bear, Wolf & Cougar)may take the odd chicken, turkey, pigeon, duck or goose. I have more problem from Owl and Raven. 
The worst is domestic canine and feline.That's right people, Fido & Meemee and Garfield & Ginger,....our beloved "pets". 
I have 20 sled-dogs that haven't killed 1/100th of what other people's pets have. Now indeed Cougar, Bear and Wolf with the wrongful persecution we've labeled on them.
I've found sleeping with my window and one eye open, a 4 power scope and cross-hatched 22LongRifle slug through the lungs is my best remedy for domestic canine and feline.
Quick-kill traps and snares and my huskies are great Mink and Skunk deterrents.
3" Magnum 12 guage BB is an excellent avian predator deterrent, or foothold traps on the light-pole.
Wolf, Bear and Coyote are the Coyote control. It's effective and absolutely free. (well....other than the energy expended educating myself and changing my Old World European mind set)


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## Bossroo (Jun 2, 2017)

Rezchamp said:


> We had problems for years with coyotes after the "European BigBadWolf" thinking infected our area wiping out the wolves, bears and cougars(apex predators we fear and/or despise causing our frail human egos to compensate our inability to respect them by acts of killing them[just like a teenager in highschool saying "I ain't scared of you]).
> It took several years for the wolf population to rebound. Almost 45 years actually. Since the return of Wolf, Cougar, Bear, ( the coyote population dropped to historic numbers. I have had Bear, Wolve and Cougar come through my area now for over 10 years and nary a 1 has taken any of my stock. Skunk, Mink, Weasel and now&then Coyote(that has evaded Bear, Wolf & Cougar)may take the odd chicken, turkey, pigeon, duck or goose. I have more problem from Owl and Raven.
> The worst is domestic canine and feline.That's right people, Fido & Meemee and Garfield & Ginger,....our beloved "pets".
> I have 20 sled-dogs that haven't killed 1/100th of what other people's pets have. Now indeed Cougar, Bear and Wolf with the wrongful persecution we've labeled on them.
> ...


just another animal rights activist living in harmony dreamland ?


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## frustratedearthmother (Jun 2, 2017)

Nothing wrong with a live and let live attitude if your animals are staying safe.  But, doesn't sound too much like an animal rights activist if he's got a rifle ready for whenever it might needed.  And, he's probably right that domestic animals take a lot more domestic stock than wild critters.


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## lcertuche (Jun 2, 2017)

Coyotes are problematic everywhere it seems. There was one in our driveway one night when DS (12) took trash out one night. I don't believe I have lost any chickens to them but I keep them locked up at night and I haven't seen any during the day. I do hear them yipping around my pond at night which is maybe 25 yards away (if that far). I wish they'd get busy getting those cottontales that are running rampant.


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## JACB Dorper (Jun 2, 2017)

Heel low:

Owned our Conservation Farm since 1998 so it is not an overnight project to get a place predator proofed.  That said, we only ever lost one bantam Brahma retired hen on Earth Day 2007; yard bird decided to stay out and one of the many welcomed rodent harvesting owls ate her.  My fault, complacent about head count after years of doing it.  Back at it. 

We tried our best not to expand too quickly.  Easiest part is getting the critters, longest hardest and most expensive part, the facilities to house them well by.  So many fun things about having animals and birds, but the real work and cost for us, the place to keep them from harm--that is the place where hard work reaps rewards. 





One year, neighbours baited a babe black bear by covering a 4x8 sheet of plywood with bird seed in the fall time, then chased him into our place...poor thing!




All are shut up at night.  Hardware cloth, 2 x 12 wooden planking, gravel and no debris around pens.  Sliding doors with metal welded panels over the windows.  Over 30+ outbuildings.  Metal roofed.  Ruminants (goats, sheep, & llamas <--useless predator animals...useless!) are metal corralled with welded wire on fences.  Cougar and bear proofed barns.  On a grizzly bear's route too.  So no eggs, certainly NO bodies about.  Before we got creatures, left some household garbage in a shed and then the coyotes made a 90 day habit of checking to see if we did it again...not ever now.  One egg in a five gallon pail by the garage, brought in a skunk.




Bird yard 2013​
If'n you have predators, that is YOUR fault not theirs for invading their space.  If we want to keep delicious poultry, sheep, goats, pigs and even dogs...we must protect our property with decent facilities and NO temptations or attractants.

We ran a length of hardware cloth around our bird yard...




It makes coming into the bird yard an ordeal.  Gotta breach the triple perimeter, negotiate the cross fencing, then get over the hardware cloth before you even GET to the birds which are never outside in the dark.  I don't let the animals out unless I am home to keep an eye on the goings on.  Sure, predation can happen in the day time...but I am there to catch them in the act. 




*2008 - Birds out in the bird yard...I am home too!*​
Expensive, you bet but I don't have to run outside half dressed for work because some 'yote is trying to pull one of my precious beasts off the place.  Time consuming, you bet...been at this since 1998 and never quite done.  We have security cameras to deter the human predators, not the beasts past would be nice to know why the security lights just came on...besides the roving neighbours felines.   




*Front pasture and New Orchard
Perimeter triple fenced and cross fenced and fenced again!*​
How many kinds of predators...from the yearly fall visitations by bears and cougars, to the eagles, resident owls and other raptors, to skunks, the neighbours dogs and cats, the two legged predators (every single door is padlocked and locked up each evening), etc.   How did we celebrate the new millennium, listening to our resident pack of coyotes howling by our fence.  We watch for tracks along the fenceline but because we are so heavily cross fenced and triple perimeter fenced...they walk up, survey the situation and decide the neighbours place is more favourable for a meal than ours.  Too much work to get in and once in, how you getting out.




*Swan building under construction
Two Pear-A-Dice geese buildings behind*​
I used two strands of ele netting and portable charger, for fencing temporarily so my ruminants can clear the ditches out...fire hazard to tossed cigs off the roads.





There are enough other issues in this nasty world that can happen to have one lose livestock (then deadstock) that I can't bear to endure losing them to predators too.  Blah!  




*Swan house completed in 2013 -
Zero predation*​
Love the wildlife here...it belongs here, we humans don't.  So we enjoy the wilds and we respect that at any moment, my one time only record of losing an old stewing hen...could be upped.

One is never finished fencing...one is never done due diligence.  ONE is never 100% safe but so it goes.  Mistakes are what learn us up and ensures we do better.  For birds of prey, double top your wired pens with a distance of about a foot (owls can sit on top of a wired run, grab ducks that fly straight up and keep doing that because they can't get the prey out the pen and have to drop it dead to the ground.  Or better yet, metal roofing like we have done.   

As far as shooting coyotes and other predators...woe to any that think that's a solution.  For every hole in a territory seems only to encourage three fold more to investigate the gap and see if it is worth taking on as their own.  I would far sooner live with our resident pack of coyotes that accept, we failed once back in 1998 and learned not to leave ANY delectable garage out for attracting troubles.  And BTW, use to work long time ago for a Conservation Office and problem wildlife reporting was one of MY duties...the triple bagged garbage still attracted bears, the garbage inside a shed still attracted predators...the frozen cin a buns in a freezer in an outdoor garage still incited the siding to be taken off the building...sigh.  The unpicked windfallen apples still attracted beasts, the cougars still hunted household pets and lawn tamed deer...basically wildlife has to be TAUGHT to know what a food source was and a coyote pup is more scared of a sheep than the ewe is afraid of the varmit.  But once fed or shown how to hunt domestics...that then becomes a much easier source of food than the wild kind.  Not happy for human or wildlife.

Some coyote tips.

- When fencing, don't top the fence with a board or something a coyote can see and judge distance from...they will tend to leap higher if they can judge better how high to jump or even jump off the top rail so to speak. 
- Don't use any type of carrion or gut piles to teach the predators how very good sheep, goat or poultry tastes.  We've never had a problem with the coyote population here wanting to eat sheep, goat or llama.  They are oblivious that this is a food source, plan on keeping it that way. 
- Keep your outbuildings and farm clean.  No brush piles, garbage or refuse to sneak around.
- Security lights, they have the solar kind now, they are great at POOFing an unexpected visitor.
- Security cameras and game cameras - great way to know what is on your land.
- Dawn to Dusk - no temptations left out and about...locked up tight in the barns and coops.
- Dogs of any kind and fashion...the marking of territory puts up the sensible alert to the 'yotes that not just humans reside here...
- Fences and cross fences.  A predators worst nightmare is going in and not being able to negotiate back out.  If a coyote gets injured trying to get a meal, that's pretty much their life over.  Easy to get without incident.  Some complain that a predator got IN their coop and then proceeded to kill everything inside that moved...yup, threat to the predator.
- Anti-dig strip; alot of work, sure but bury page wire along a pen under gravel.  Predators tend to stand at the fence and then try to dig under, not knowing to step back of the wire and begin digging.  No debris, you can visually inspect your perimeter for any activity and rectify the issue before the predator gets in with your beasts.  Make the your breaching of your perimeter not worth the effort.   

I worked for Alberta Ag coupla decades ago...fencing tips on coyote proofing.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex888

And many would look at our set up and call it Ft. Knox...no regrets here and why yes, we do have the gaggles of geriatric geese to go with Fort Knox too come to think of it.  

You may live in harmony with predators...we do and love that.  Nothing makes me smile more than to hear the yip of the 'yotes, knowing full well I can sleep soundly at night because it won't be our beasts they are dining on tonight.  

About the only thing we have not been able to keep away from the critters...the grim reaper...    Old age takes all of us and I guess if you gotta go, best it be in the shade on a nice summer's day.  Not savagely chased, mauled and torment by monster predators.  I'd far rather wring my animal's necks, quick and thorough than let them fall to predation.  

Doggone & Chicken UP!w

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada


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## soarwitheagles (Jun 2, 2017)

Dang, this thread has recently turned more and more toward the totally wacko Sierra Club's insanity.  I cannot believe it.

The ONLY sane way I can live in harmony with predators is if they are totally annihilated, dead and buried.  For us, it is the best guarantee of all that our livestock are safe and will not be taken.  Two different neighbors, each had over 20 young, tender lambs utterly tortured, mangled and brutally killed by coyotes that didn't even eat all of the carcasses. 

If we have problems with predators it is our fault and not theirs?  That statement is based upon sheer ignorance and brain washing...Another belief system and statement based upon the absolute insanity of the twisted thinking of Sierra Club or Sierra Club camp.

"Wild life belongs here...we humans don't?"

More of the twisted and perverse thinking where people in their delusion elevate the worth and value of an animal over a human being...

No apologies given...


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## frustratedearthmother (Jun 2, 2017)

If someone is losing 20 lambs to coyotes - they are doing something wrong.  In fact they are doing a LOT wrong.


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## babsbag (Jun 2, 2017)

I am the OP with the 4 LGDs and the coyote that has not been back since installing the hot wire.  

I bought my 4th dog to live with the chickens. She was too young to be alone with them, no training with chickens or ducks I honestly didn't have the time or the heart to stick her in there alone. No housing for her either and only about 1/4 acre. Good idea, just not ready to implement it so bad timing on my part.  My oldest two that are chicken safe are not duck proven as the ducks are a new addition and I didn't want to take the chance of losing my ducks, I only have 4. Those two dogs would have to stay together and they ARE my goat dogs, could never put them with the chickens full time. The third dog is a little older than my puppy, but again unproven with fowl.   My LGDs are also very people oriented (me) and I like it that way. I spend a lot more time with my goats than I do with my chickens, the dog would be very lonely in there alone.

My chickens used to live with my goats and dogs but the dairy required a change to that housing situation.

I am in the middle of building a dairy and my cup runneth over so for now it is hot wire and it works. I also recently bought another 6 acres that my dogs patrol. My land is not flat, you can't see across it at all so there is about 9 acres and a mile of fence line and currently close to 100 goats. My 4 dogs are busy.


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## babsbag (Jun 2, 2017)

@soarwitheagles  did they lose the lambs all in one night?  I keep thinking that you need an LGD and I have been looking for one for you. LGD puppyhood can be tough so I am on the lookout for an older already trained dog for you. 

I wouldn't miss the coyotes one bit. We have a ground squirrel population explosion that the coyotes don't seem to care about in the least...I wish they would make them their dinner and at least be useful. I hear packs of them singing the song of their people every night, they are thick out there. They used to hunt them by helicopter in areas near me but that has been outlawed now. Too bad.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 3, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> "Wild life belongs here...we humans don't?"
> 
> More of the twisted and perverse thinking where people in their delusion elevate the worth and value of an animal over a human being...
> 
> No apologies given...



I couldn't agree more!

We do like the wildlife here BUT we have no problem taking out a nuisance animal.
Years ago NC didn't even have rabies.
Then it did.
Then it exploded and our particular county had the highest incidence in the country until hunters were brought in to really cut the raccoon population down. They were the issue!
Of course from there the foxes and coyotes and skunks now were carrying rabies.
It is an ongoing issue.

I think it is a ridiculous notion to lock up all our livestock. Thousands of years cattle, goats, sheep etc have NOT been locked up and the herdsman (shepherd) and their dogs killed predators when they came in to attack. 

It is late spring going into summer there is no way my goats want to be locked in a barn. 
When coyotes have no real natural predator (wolves & mt lions generally being their only predators) their numbers get out of hand quick. 
Where we are located they have none, it is up to us to deal with them. Of course I use dogs (LGD's) and have never lost an animal under their care. 
But just outside their fencing was a wonderful deer the coyotes took down and then the buzzards finished off their carcass.

Soar- not sure if you are still not wanting to entertain the idea but I evaluated a litter awhile ago and keep up with it. The dogs are still young 20 weeks but safe with baby goats, working on poultry and best they LOVE children. They are raised on a family farm and the hope is they go to farms where they will have interaction with families. Very sound tempered dogs. They are young but learning well. By 1 year they will be able to do anything necessary.


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## soarwitheagles (Jun 3, 2017)

frustratedearthmother said:


> If someone is losing 20 lambs to coyotes - they are doing something wrong.  In fact they are doing a LOT wrong.


  Yes, and I will tell you what they were doing wrong:

1. They did not have night vision scopes [95% of the kills were at night] so they were left at the mercy of the coyotes because they could not see them.
2. They did not bring them into a coyote proof set up at night because they did not have a coyote proof set up [they should have made one].
3. They did not realize that once a pack of coyotes tastes the fresh blood of a lamb, they will most certainly come back.
4. They had no LGD's.
5. They were rookies with no experience at all in this part of the state raising sheep.

That is the story on one of my friends.

The story of my other friend is different.  He eventually hired people to take out the coyotes.  Since then, he has not lost as many sheep.



babsbag said:


> @soarwitheagles  did they lose the lambs all in one night?  I keep thinking that you need an LGD and I have been looking for one for you. LGD puppyhood can be tough so I am on the lookout for an older already trained dog for you.
> 
> I wouldn't miss the coyotes one bit. We have a ground squirrel population explosion that the coyotes don't seem to care about in the least...I wish they would make them their dinner and at least be useful. I hear packs of them singing the song of their people every night, they are thick out there. They used to hunt them by helicopter in areas near me but that has been outlawed now. Too bad.



They both lost the lambs within a four week period.  Neither of them had a place to secure the sheep at night from coyotes.  If I remember correctly, one lost 23, the other 17.



Southern by choice said:


> I couldn't agree more!
> 
> We do like the wildlife here BUT we have no problem taking out a nuisance animal.
> Years ago NC didn't even have rabies.
> ...



SBC, I am still interested in purchasing an LGD, but here, they are so expensive and I have no time whatsoever to do the training.

Best of all, we have had no problems with coyotes at all here, but I bring my sheep in out of the forest every night during the winter, spring, and fall.

Presently I have them in a pasture that borders our living quarters, and we have had no problems at all.

We are super thankful about the safety that our sheep have been experiencing.  I am convinced a local neighbor has eliminated the coyote problem in our neck of the woods.  The only issue I have had is once in a while a dog will get in and chase/bite some of our sheep.  We solved this challenge by finding the breach in the fence and mending it.  But I am still of the mindset and totally prepared to shoot any dog/coyote immediately if it is attacking/injuring our sheep.

"Woe to people that shoot coyotes and other predators?"
"Wild life belongs here, we humans don't?"
"Having predators is a human fault, not a wild life fault?"
"Live in harmony with predators?"

Each of these statements are based upon a world view, belief systems, paradigms, as well as terribly twisted thinking that is a deep perversion of what is right, just, and true.

_Edited by staff_


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## Southern by choice (Jun 3, 2017)

JACB Dorper said:


> Love the wildlife here...it belongs here, we humans don't.



I do think this is an ideology, and here is where many disagree.
I am of the mindset that we were given dominion over the animals- They are not our equals. We should however steward that what is entrusted to us. Meaning caring for all that was created and given to us to have dominion over. We very much belong here, in the mountains, by the sea, on the prairies, etc. 

Hunting is one of the most effective conservation methods.

It is not logical to think that farmers can possibly secure all their property.


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## soarwitheagles (Jun 3, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> I do think this is an ideology, and here is where many disagree.
> I am of the mindset that we were given dominion over the animals- They are not our equals. We should however steward that what is entrusted to us. Meaning caring for all that was created and given to us to have dominion over. We very much belong here, in the mountains, by the sea, on the prairies, etc.
> 
> Hunting is one of the most effective conservation methods.
> ...



SBC,

Yes, it is an ideology, a terribly twisted and perverse ideology in the sense that it is systematic body of terribly wrong, twisted and perverted concepts especially about human life and culture.

I too subscribe to the truth you have stated because your words are based upon eternal truths and principles and not upon man made delusions:  we were given dominion over the animals- They are not our equals. We should however steward that what is entrusted to us. Meaning caring for all that was created and given to us to have dominion over. We very much belong here, in the mountains, by the sea, on the prairies, etc.

Your words could not be better stated.  Thank you for sharing.


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## greybeard (Jun 4, 2017)

Southern by choice said:


> I do think this is an ideology,


Most practices, good and bad.. are.
And I've seen but very few yet that isn't flawed in one way or another.
Man lived in harmony with nature only up until the time we ceased being gatherers of nuts and berries and moved up to hunter gatherers. Once we domesticated animals, we decided it prudent to go to great lengths to build infrastructure (fences) to keep those animals that 'belong here"..out!


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## Rezchamp (Jun 4, 2017)

I strongly believe that (the one entity many "North American" people call)God is a tad smarter than us egocentric humans. What he/she/it/evolution put in place for us is being destroyed by none other than, you guessed it, us.
I was 6 when I presented my grandmother with 3 blackbirds I had shot with a pump action air powered .177 pelet rifle. She later presented them to me on a plate. When I looked at them with my "city boy" "eeewww!" attitude she smiled so very sweet and said gently in slightly Scot/Dane accent,"You've a good eye. Kill nothing for nothing. Now eat. You've earned it." Since then I've "killed" 1000's of Rabbit, 1000's each of all kinds of Fish, Duck and Goose, Drummers, Sharpies and Sprucies(partridge), hundreds each of Beaver, Muskrat, Whitetail, Elk, a few each Moose and Caribou. And yes, them 3 RedWinged Blackbirds taught me respect for life....and yes the way my Nana cooked them actually was delish.
I harvest many forms of wild and domestic flora and fauna for my consumption. I thank "God" everyday for my bounty.
I also eat bacon, ground beef and fried chicken that are products of "intensive farming techniques. I just about forgot, I eat corn, peas, carrots, dill, beets, etc from my garden as well as eggs and meat from my chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys and pigeons and milk and meat from my goats. 
If that's an animal rights activist then I suppose I'm an animal rights activist.
And yes thank you for noticing that I am doing a lot to live in a more harmonious and sensitive manner regarding "God's" creation/evolution.

In my book, PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals


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## greybeard (Jun 4, 2017)

Rezchamp said:


> Since then I've "killed" 1000's of Rabbit, 1000's each of all kinds of Fish, Duck and Goose, Drummers, Sharpies and Sprucies(partridge), hundreds each of Beaver,


Wanna come down and rid my place of beaver?
They're causing me all kinds of problems.
I'll provide room & board, you can keep the nasty things for 'whatever', & I'll even supply the connibears and feed ya 3x a day.


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## Rezchamp (Jun 4, 2017)

LOL 
Good one greybeard
That is a very generous offer and I would have in another time rushed to accept. Lots on my plate here. Lots
Have a good day


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## Rezchamp (Jun 4, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> SBC,
> 
> Yes, it is an ideology, a terribly twisted and perverse ideology in the sense that it is systematic body of terribly wrong, twisted and perverted concepts especially about human life and culture.
> 
> ...




Go into the deep wilderness young man. Take not but your loincloth and your wit. Let us then see who is above who. Our egocentric words mean precious little to a mother moose, mother elk, mother grizzly protecting her young. Our egocentric thought processes mean precious little to rain, snow and blazing heat. Our egocentric ideologies do not get interpreted into Beaver, Goose or Fish. Our egocentric actions are not well respected by a bull moose challenging all to his arena.
An old Scot once told me,"the true Hunter is the one that go to the deer in the field and feed him from his hand."
Since I didn't ask him to clarify the jist of his words, I can only guess through my experiences since, he was making referance to respect.
All said I fully agree our ego is well defended with a gun, knife, arrow, knife or spear.


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## Rezchamp (Jun 4, 2017)

We all have ideology
The most prevelent one is,"Mine is better than yours.".


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## babsbag (Jun 4, 2017)

I don't hunt. But I have nothing against those that do IF they hunt for food. I don't believe in trophy hunting, but I'm not going to get all uppity about it. It is my opinion, that's all it is...an opinion...mine. That being said I'll darn well put a bullet in any predator that goes after my goats or chickens (except bird of prey) and I'll do the same for vermin that are causing me grief, being it undermining a building or stealing my garden produce and I won't feel a bit sad about it. Sorry, but my goat, dog, or cat comes before the neighborhood coyote and we aren't going to coexistent and they won't play by the rules. My garden comes before Jack Bunny or Missy Mouse, and my bees come before any skunk or bear or racoon...those are my rules on my land. Like or leave one way or another. I work too hard for what I raise.


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## greybeard (Jun 4, 2017)

predators have no respect for fences. They're just an obstacle that is either impossible or more trouble than it's worth to get thru, over, around, or under.


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## soarwitheagles (Jun 5, 2017)

Greybeard,

Thanks for sharing some facts that can be clearly understood and utilized.

I am not even gonna waste my breath or exercise my fingers to type or answer or reply anymore to the fruitcakes...for it would totally in vain.

Dang, what's gonna slither out of the woodwork next?


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## Rezchamp (Jun 9, 2017)

soarwitheagles said:


> Greybeard,
> 
> Thanks for sharing some facts that can be clearly understood and utilized.
> 
> ...



Yup
Agree there
U


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## babsbag (Jul 21, 2017)

He's baaack !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Littl bas...rd dug under the fence and under the hot wire. I am missing my prettiest roo. Actually two of them.   So since there is a heat advisory in affect for today I am going to go and fix fences and run more hot wire. I have not been diligent on the keeping the wire HOT as I thought they had learned their lesson. They will tonight. *rubs hands together in glee*


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## Bruce (Jul 21, 2017)

Oh babs!!!!!! I've shut off the lowest HW (6") on the fence because I just can't keep up with all the vegetation growing there.


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## babsbag (Jul 21, 2017)

I spent about 3 hours in 103° temps running new wire, checking and repairing wire, clearing weeds (at least mine are dead weeds), and blocking the area where they dug under. We will see, and hear I hope, what happens. I think that I am putting in my new 2 joule AC charger this weekend too. DH wants to put one of the ground rods IN the pond, that ought to keep it nice and damp.  Right now I have a DC charger and I have to keep the battery charged, kind of a pain. 

 I found a spot on our neighbors fence where the barbed wire  had been twisted on to itself to make a nice gap in the fence. There is 3' field fencing at the bottom and then 3 rows of barbed wire on the top and two rows of hot wire on the side to keep my goats and dogs off of the fence.  You could see where the field fencing had been climbed on and my hot wire was broken...it is poly wire, not metal. Do you think that there is anyway a coyote could have twisted that wire just by trying to get through or was that an act of mankind? I would rather a coyote gain access to my land than human.


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## greybeard (Jul 22, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I found a spot on our neighbors fence where the barbed wire had been twisted on to itself to make a nice gap in the fence.


I know of only 2 things that can do that around here. 
1. Human.
2. Deer. 
Humans often do it with a stick they find on the ground around here and they'll leave the stick in place--usually feral hog or coon  hunters retrieving their dogs.

Deer do it when they jump a fence, and misjudge or don't see where the top wires are. They jump with their front legs folded back under their belly, with rear legs extended back, but fold the rear legs  forward near the top of the jump so they can land on all 4s and as they transition the rear legs forward,  a back leg will go between the top and next wire, twist the wire as they go over, and sometimes permanently or  temporarily trap the deer in the wire, but usually not. I've watched it happen several times and it does flip 'em over but they've always gotten loose here. 
A stictched together pic of a whitetail's jump from near beginning to right before touchdown.







This one evidently got caught.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-cNDGD1Ej.../EJX8kO1C9ws/s320/YearlingCaughtInFence#1.jpg


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## Pastor Dave (Jul 22, 2017)

.00 buck shot. Good for more than bucks...


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## Baymule (Jul 22, 2017)

That does sound like someone went walking around on your place.


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## babsbag (Jul 22, 2017)

In the 8 years we have lived here I have seen one deer within 1/4 mile of my house which makes me think that probably not deer.


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## Baymule (Jul 22, 2017)

Is it the fence between you and your creepy neighbors?


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## babsbag (Jul 22, 2017)

No. But I still wonder if someone came onto the land thinking that they might steal a goat but was met with yet another fence with hot wire and 4 dogs.


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## soarwitheagles (Jul 23, 2017)

Babs,

Maybe consider installing a motion detector high definition IP camera set up.  Now a days, they are much lower priced!  And most also come with the infra red for night time activity!

Costco, Sam's Club, and a myriad of other stores sell the entire systems now for a fraction of the cost compared to 5 years ago.

We have nearly our entire ranch under cameras now and the result is no more guess work and best of all, I feel a lot safer too.  Nice thing about it, you can even check the cams on your phone when you are off site.

If someone in your family is a tech guru and likes to tinker, you can also set the Raspberry Pi with a cheap camera for pennies...


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2017)

I'm the tech guru but not much time to tinker these days. Before I retired I was a network engineer for Sac. school district for 8 years and IT director at a school where I live now. 

I would have to do wireless and battery as there is no power out there. I have cameras for my barn for kidding season but never got them set up but there is power and wi-fi at the barn, not so out at the back pasture. Probably a game cam type of setup is the best I can get, but again, I haven't really looked at options for cameras with no available power.


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## soarwitheagles (Jul 24, 2017)

babsbag said:


> I'm the tech guru but not much time to tinker these days. Before I retired I was a network engineer for Sac. school district for 8 years and IT director at a school where I live now.
> 
> I would have to do wireless and battery as there is no power out there. I have cameras for my barn for kidding season but never got them set up but there is power and wi-fi at the barn, not so out at the back pasture. Probably a game cam type of setup is the best I can get, but again, I haven't really looked at options for cameras with no available power.



Babs,

Under those circumstances, an inexpensive game camera sounds like a great idea!

If you are indeed dealing with a two-legged coyote, the nice things about cameras, they do not lie, and in a court of law hold a lot of weight.

Not so sure about your neighborhood and county laws, but we gladly joined the Sheriff's Electronic Eye (S.E.E.) here in Sacramento County.  Sure is nice to have each other's backs covered...


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## babsbag (Jul 24, 2017)

We really have no neighborhood. There are 6 or 7 homes out here that use the same main road but scattered about. We do watch each other's back to some extent but we certainly don't have any organized group like the Neighborhood Watch.  One neighbor in particular is just plain nosy but he would be the last one to call in an emergency.


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## Rezchamp (Jul 29, 2017)

babsbag said:


> ...... Do you think that there is anyway a coyote could have twisted that wire just by trying to get through or........


 

I've actually beat the certain subspecies (the worst kind) of coyote for doing just that. Oddly their language was quite similar to mine but accentuated with a few surprised yelps followed by a few deep grunts then some high pitched whines and about 4or5 anguished wails then utter silence........except for some gurgley shallow breathing which continued until a cpl of kicks to the lower ribs rousted them from their apparently restful, rejuvenating nap....shortly after which training started in earnest. There ain't another cure as good as that certain subspecies of coyote teaching others of that certain subspecies of coyote to stay away from certain areas.
Trail cameras are boss especially if they have a wireless feed to a laptop.
One thing that still amazes me to this day is how a simple click of a safety can stop this certain subspecies of coyote in their tracks and make them so compliant.


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## Baymule (Jul 30, 2017)




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