# couple questions for Large property like more then 20 acres...



## Kitdragon2000 (Aug 10, 2012)

First I apologize if this is in the wrong thread... im just not sure Where to put it. 

So still working on getting a large piece of land, the family says we are at least getting 10 acres, there are 2 of us who want more, and 2 who dont... 

one of the reasons the two who Dont want land is they are worried of taking care of the land. Im all up for getting some cattle and letting them graze the land, or leasing it out, things like that. we are already going to have 3 houses on the property with a pool, and a large back yard we all plan to share, along with around an acre for the garden, which includes a small orchard. For the animals dog runs, a large chicken coop with run (to keep them safe from birds & predators.) along with shelters and fenced areas for goats, and horses.  Ok ill stop with the dream and ask the question... What other things do you all do to maintain the land? and what kind of things do you have to go maintain that the animals dont work? (like fire walls, or creeks, small streets ext?)

2nd thing is i know it sounds sort of stupid but how do the larger properties handle trash pick up? Do you guys have a normal pick up day or is there a huge trash bin that gets picks up whenever its full? Or do you have to take it all to the dump?

Sorry if it sounds stupid.. im just trying to figure it all out, and get ammo for getting more land


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## Canamer (Aug 10, 2012)

The more land, the more upkeep.  We have a little under 30 acres, with 9 horses and 2 Shetland ponies.   We have have our property split into 5 pastures (2-3 acres each ), two smaller paddocks about 3/4 of an acre, 2 pony paddocks about 1/4 of an acre.  We have divided them this way, A) to divide the horses up into small groups for turn out, and B) so that we can rotate around the pastures (a must to keep the grass healthy).  A riding arena, a jump field, the barn yard and the house.  For us there is a lot of upkeep.  We have to mow the lanes around the pastures (with a tractor) and weed eat the fence lines so that the electric fence will work.  The yard, barn yard and jump field is mowed with a lawn mower.  That means every day off is spent on upkeep.  Now granted we like our place to look groomed all the time.  We have had a wet summer, so have also had to spend time mowing the actual pastures.  

We also had 4 cows, but have recently sold them, as they were taking up to much of my horses room.

There are lanes between our pastures so there is no communicating across the fence line as it only takes a second and a horse striking at another on the other side of the fence to cause a devastating injury.

We take our trash to the local dump.


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## kfacres (Aug 10, 2012)

Kitdragon2000 said:
			
		

> First I apologize if this is in the wrong thread... im just not sure Where to put it.
> 
> 
> one of the reasons the two who Dont want land is they are worried of taking care of the land. Im all up for getting some cattle and letting them graze the land, or leasing it out, things like that. we are already going to have 3 houses on the property with a pool, and a large back yard we all plan to share, along with around an acre for the garden, which includes a small orchard. For the animals dog runs, a large chicken coop with run (to keep them safe from birds & predators.) along with shelters and fenced areas for goats, and horses.  Ok ill stop with the dream and ask the question... What other things do you all do to maintain the land? and what kind of things do you have to go maintain that the animals dont work? (like fire walls, or creeks, small streets ext?)
> ...


3 houses- at 2-3 acres each = 6-9 acres
garden, 1 acre
1 acre (208 x 208) for other small animals, 1 acre


You are already up to 8-11 acres, with no room for goats, horses, cows, or anything else.

Upkeep doesn't consist of anything really-- mow it once a year o boy. build fence, and maintain that, but you'll have to do that anyways.. and fence with livestock who have plenty to eat rarely gets torn up.

The person above me has tons of wasted space with alleys, and wasted dollars with double the fence..  I wouldn't do that, waste, IMO

trash, you can hire it done, burn it yourself, or take it somewhere.


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## Kitdragon2000 (Aug 11, 2012)

the houses arnt going to be that big. the houses each are around 4,000 sq feet each, im thinking about a acre for all 3 houses and the back yard maybe a little more for the pool since it will be a litter separate, we figure we are all family so we can be semi-close. hey more room then we have right now! (5 - 6 adults and 1 4year old w/ 6 dogs, 5 cats, 1 snake, and 5 rats) the garden / orchard im figuring an acre (with most likely room to spare) 

the garden im figuring an acre because its just to feed the family. so don't need a ton of room there

So maybe my question should be around how many acres should i have?  

Thanks for answering the question of the trash, i have been wondering.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Aug 11, 2012)

*1 acre is 208 feet x 208 feet, your going to need way more than 1 acre for three houses. 
*


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## kfacres (Aug 11, 2012)

Right where this house stands that I'm in right now- is 2 acres-- and in all honesty-- this is the smallest house in the world, and I barely have enough room to turn around in the yard with, and park our two stock trailors (8x20 and 6x10), the three vehicles, and enough room for the small animal pens.  our garden is about 20x40, and we'd like to expand it but don't have enough room.  What about a front yard?  What about parking space?  

Even lots in town with a house on them, are an acre or two with as 'big' backyard.  Again, 208x208 is an acre.  43,560 sq ft is an acre if you didn't know it.  

IMO, you are going to need 10 acres for the houses alone, parking, and back yard.  Depending on where you live (state and terrain), you are going to need at least an acre per horse, cow/ calf pair, or 5 goats.  So, that means take that times how ever many animals you WANT, add 10%-- and that's how many acres you are going to need.  

I also don't know where you live, but I am in the home buying market right now, and finding a place with more than 10-12 acres and a house on it-- is almost impossible.


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## RemudaOne (Aug 11, 2012)

It would probably be a good idea to get a realtor to show you some 10, 15 and 20 acre tracts so that you can get a visual idea of the size of an acre...... It ain't much when you're talking livestock. That being said, I think that (for me) 4000 square foot houses are pretty big but if you don't mind being a little cozy, I think you could do the 3 houses, communal backyard and pool on about 5 acres. That doesnt include the garden though. 

I don't want to dry lot my animals here so I keep the numbers down to a level where I don't have to do that. It's a personal preference but I don't want that kind of life for them. As far as having lanes between paddocks or pastures, it's a very common practice on horse farms. We don't do it here but it doesnt seem so wasteful when a 10 or 20 thousand dollar animal has to be destroyed or layed off indefinitely after an "across the fence" horse fight.


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## secuono (Aug 11, 2012)

Whether or not you have trash pick up solely depends on the companies and if they are willing to even come out to you. Some may come if you rent a small dumpster from them. If not, you will have to do your own trash, either a local recycling center or a fire pit for things that are legal to burn. 


We are on 5 acres, but mainly a mountain mess. Mowing with a small riding mower is near impossible and the heat makes it even more of a bother. Early Spring and late Fall is when we clean things up, impossible during Summer and things are let to grow wild. But, I am slowly growing my sheep flock and the pigs. I want to use them on rotational grazing to help maintain the growth.


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## Catahoula (Aug 11, 2012)

4,000sq foot home is a huge house! When you have a realtor to show you land, you may also check for building permits in general...what it will entails. To build one house is a big deal...not to mention 3 huge ones. You'll need to see what the land is zone for to see if you can even build that many buildings.  Other things to considered are your utilities in general? Will you have electricity, natural gas, water source and sewer service? If you are going to be in total remote area, your not have all those utilities....especially sewer. If you ended up with a septic tank and a water well, you may not want a pool. Being remote, you may also have private roads to maintain. May I ask where you are thinking of buying property?


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## Kitdragon2000 (Aug 11, 2012)

i knew that 43,560 sq = 1 acre.. but i was to much of a dididii to think of it as a square instead of a line x.x now i get to refigure everything *Dies* 

we r in CA, but by a area where farms are normal. we are exploring all the options, one thing that my mom has talked with a Realtor friend of hers is the town right next to us has a freeway through the middle of it, but the side roads on either side the land has city electricity, and water from the city, but we have the land component (and not horribly hilly at that!!) we havent done a Ton of scouting around since we (Still) dont know how much my dads settelment will be....   

any help is appreciated, im new to this, done a ton of research but havent been able to find anyone who is willing to help me put everything togeather. iv been doing it all half blind (even have to push the family to tell me which houses they want )

so there will be 2 main houses atm they are each 2,939sqft (thought my mom wants a smaller home, dad doesnt x.x they can argue about it and just let me know the outcome.) the 3rd house we are hoping will be legal, but its only going to be a 1 bed, 1 bath, thats only 788 sqft,  

i have seen any land with houses on it are a crazy sum... (like a mil ) but what im doing is looking into property and if we got all utilities on it... we are going to get it by a street, so it would only be getting a electric company to come out and run a line through to the houses. the water has been one we are trying to really figure out, i was thinking a well, and septic tank, so @catahoula why would we not want those with a pool? mom is really hoping for a property in the next town, that way we can have city water and sewage. 

but all of this is why i am asking i thought i had most of it figured out. i have been trying for awhile to figure out how many acres to an animal, with the legal and humane for them, but, as i said no one else is willing to really talk to me, or if they do i feel its them talking down to me, and i get enough of that at work along with every other bad thing possible... but i also know according to some i am easily offended  ... *sigh*

so yea, i know about permits and such will be needed, last i checked the company we will be getting the modular homes through will get the permits, if able. i am trying to look in the counties to see what there legal zoning codes and such Are so i can go looking with more know how, but i swear its 1 step forward 2 step back with all this lately. 2 out of 3 counties i cant find anything pertaining to farm, like zoning codes, how many animals legally i can have in an acre ext. and i know i want more property so i can have all the animals i want, its trying to convice my mother, my dad's already sold. and the maintenance and trash are big questions for her. hence me asking...


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## Canamer (Aug 12, 2012)

"The person above me has tons of wasted space with alleys, and wasted dollars with double the fence..  I wouldn't do that, waste, IMO"

Sorry.  I would disagree.  Not wasted space .  Common fencelines are not a good idea with horses, so do not consider it wasted $$$.  Having a horse have to be put down because of improper fencing would be wasted $$$ in my opinion and irresponsible.   All of our alley ways probably add up to about 1 1/2 - 2 acres - so that is one less head I can have on my land.  Not that big of a deal.  And they can be used for bridal paths.

I have worked and been in the horse industry for 30+ years and seen many injuries on other farms due to common fencelines between feild.  It is always better to be safe than sorry. 

I grew up on a cattle farm 50 head on about 200 acres of pasture and if the fence was not properly maintained they would be out in a heartbeat - that was with great grass - alfalfa/orchard/timothy, plenty of water and twice a day feed of grain.  So do not skimp on fencing.  Luckily a properly maintaind electric fence works wonders with most animals.  Our fence cost us about $40/330 feet, so multiply that by 4 for 4 strand fence.  We have used the same fence for 12 + years and moved it around three different properties.  It is difficult to do that with electric wire and impossible with wood, which is one of the reasons we go with the electric braided fence.  Plus it is white, looks nice and is visible.  Also wouldn't recommend electric tape because it stretches in the wind.


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## Kitdragon2000 (Aug 12, 2012)

Canamer said:
			
		

> "Luckily a properly maintaind electric fence works wonders with most animals.  Our fence cost us about $40/330 feet, so multiply that by 4 for 4 strand fence.  We have used the same fence for 12 + years and moved it around three different properties.  It is difficult to do that with electric wire and impossible with wood, which is one of the reasons we go with the electric braided fence.  Plus it is white, looks nice and is visible.  Also wouldn't recommend electric tape because it stretches in the wind.


i can totally understand about having space between the animals, i have seen to many small animals get nailed through fences, (and had to separate pets of my own. so figures i should do this with big as well. but i want to know more about the fencing. its another thing i haven't been able to get a lot of info on! so you use a 4 strand? What are you able to keep in with 4 strands?


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## Bossroo (Aug 12, 2012)

Especially here in Cal, there are CC&Rs on rural lands that state that there may be only one house on the acreage ( there may be some exceptions like you may have another house, but it can NOT have a kitchen).  Our area in Central Cal.  is 20 acre parcels ( one neighbor has 5,000 acres)   only one residence is allowed per parcel. A mother in law structure is allowed, but it can NOT have a kitchen.  Check this out with your county housing officials, as many real estate people are just NOT aware of this little gem since they most often deal in city housing.   You may want to purchase several adjoining acreage properties to be legal to have nearby homes with kitchens. Good luck!


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## Kitdragon2000 (Aug 12, 2012)

could you technically split the parcels and cheat that way, like if you got a 100 acres split it into quarters? or does a parcel go by what the state has boundary line wise? we even had the thought of doing 2 houses with a mutual kitchen and a motor home...sometimes gotta love California


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## Canamer (Aug 13, 2012)

Kitdragon2000 said:
			
		

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Horses, cattle, donkeys.  I have a friend that keeps 7 goats (large meat goats that are pets) in her 4 strand electric fence, but last year we brought my daughters show goat and it's friend home for about three weeks, put them in one of our larger paddocks (the 3/4 acre one) and they were constantly getting out and into our rose bushes.  Again I don't have any, but I have a friend that keeps Alpacas and sheep in her electric fence.  Now when we had a solar fence (one charger for each pasture) the cattle would go through it, and we had one pony that seemed to know it was off and she would step through the fence.  We know have it plugged into the electricity at the barn.  One charger runs the whole property and no one ever bothers the fence.

Oh, and we have a T-post every 32 feet and wooden post braced in all corners and gates.  All T-posts have caps on them for safety as horses are very accident prone animals.


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## Kitdragon2000 (Aug 13, 2012)

Canamer said:
			
		

> Kitdragon2000 said:
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Thank you for the info! I was looking into electric fencing, but again wasn't sure where to start, and goats will be one of the first things we would try to keep in with it... any type in particular you recommend? fencing wise for goats?


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## Shayanna (Sep 13, 2012)

Along with my mother, we have about 10 acres fenced in for a couple steers, a horse, and 7 goats.  If you get cows, get some goats and vice versa. The goats eat the weeds down, which allows the nice grass to grow up for the horses and cows.  Our chickens are free  ranged, and since the goats/horses/cows got put in, we have had very little predator problems. (Plus we have a 20 guage shotgun that takes care of any predator problems that find their way through.) And because it is such a large area fenced in, our goats have no desire to get out, and that is with a 3 strand electric fence. At first we did need to teach them to respect it, just as we did with the horse and cows. Sounds mean, but you have to make the goat touch the fence. Sure they could run through it if they really wanted to, just like a horse or a cow could, but once you make the animal touch it and hold it there for a minute, they lose the desire to go anywhere near it. It might take a couple zaps, but they will learn.

Depending on what kind of goat you are interested in.... I would go for the large breed if you are interested in electric fence. The smaller ones are much more naughty and always seem to want to push their limits. We keep nubians and alpines. Also a benefit of electric fence, if you have goats with horns (We do, as they don't bother us any), you don't have to worry about them getting their heads stuck.

We use the fiberglass step in posts. One strand about 6 inches off the ground, another one at a foot-2 1/2, and the last one at about 3 1/2 feet. Make sure you don't skimp on the fence charger though. Just because it says horses and cows doesn't mean it is rated for goats. Goats have a much thicker coat and need a little more Umph!  Also, they will tell to space the posts anywhere from 8-10 feet in the store. Don't believe it. This is just to get you to buy more posts/ insulators. If you are going acrossed a flat stretch, you can stretch it to 20 feet. Also make sure you take a weedwhacker and/or clear any sticks from where your bottom line will touch. The charger might say thick weeds are fine, but you will pack a better punch without. Also, don't skimp on grounding rods either. And keep them wet. Unless we get a good solid rain, atleast once per week we take a hose to our rods for a good 15 minutes to soak the ground its stuck in.

Hope I didn't overwhelm you. We just did our fencing about a month ago and it was quite the learning experience.


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## Shayanna (Sep 13, 2012)

And yet more advice. If you have a horse, as long as there is enough space fenced in so that they aren't FORCED to be side by side, things should be okay. The only issue we have had is when our buck thought that maybe the horse would like to play. He was mistaken. The horse did not want to play and turned around and kicked that buck so hard that he did fly up against the fence, wrestling ring style. 

Some people would be like "did you get him checked by a vet?" or "thats why you don't keep those animals together!" But tell you what, that goat learned some respect.  They now graze happily next to each other, and the goat stays far away from the horse's rear end. If they need their alone time, they can have it.


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## Kitdragon2000 (Sep 13, 2012)

Thank you So much for the information!!! i dont get overwhelmed easily so go ahead!!  i was trying to figure out all of the fence stuff and it wasnt always going well x.x i totally understand about the goats now leaving the horse alone! that's how we teach our dogs to leave our cats alone  we have an older cat and whenever puppies come in he gives them a good whack or two and they leave him alone now   I was wondering since you just went through all the fencing stuff, i was thinking of getting mini's for a lot of things, can you make an electric woven wire or would i have to do strands along with the woven wire? 
Again THANK YOU for all the information!!!!


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## Kitdragon2000 (Sep 13, 2012)

oh 1 more question, with 10 acres do you rotate pastures with your group or are they all just there?  Thank you Again!!


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## Shayanna (Sep 14, 2012)

Pretty sure you would have to do woven wire along with electric strands, but just woven wire should work. We just did electric because we couldn't afford woven/welded wire, plus our goats have horns. And I guess electric could work with minis if you had more strands that are closer together with a really high jolt. We don't rotate, they just have the 10 acres all the time. Which works for us, because there is woods with pines, two ponds, and a creek that comes from a free-flowing well and doesn't freeze so  we don't have to worry about water. I figure with 7 goats, only 2 cows and a horse, there is no way they will ever eat their way through that much space.

I do have to admit we had our first escape yesterday though. Barley (Saanen/Alpine mix), apparently accidently flew over the fence. I got home from work and she was waiting in my driveway for me to put her back in. I walked the perimeter of the fence, and there was nothing broken or bent. I couldn't figure out how she got out and neither could she. She just wanted to be back with her friends. We will have a herding/guard dog in the future as back up though.


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## Kitdragon2000 (Sep 14, 2012)

Oh no poor Barley! And i bet you were nice and surprised when you drove in  i was thinking like 7-9 strands or something like that if i just went with electric no woven wire... Wow sounds like a gorgeous place you have!!! Yeah I'm sort of planning having a little of everything, a couple sheep, goats, pigs, 2-3 horses, a couple cows. though most of them are going to be mini's so i will have a little more room...
Thank you for the info!!! and answering my questions! I really, Really appreciate it!!


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## ragdollcatlady (Sep 15, 2012)

In central California you have to be zoned for animals even in rural area with acreage...the city folk are taking over!!!! R2 zoning means that you can have 2 large animal credits per acre that is dedicated to their care. Horses and cows would obviously be one credit per animal, so you could have 2 per acre. I believe the sheep,goats, pigs, etc are 1/2 an animal credit each, so 4 of those. That is a pretty good rule for minimums, but more space per animal is always better.....they are healthier when not crowded.

In the cities in California, like San Jose, where I grew up, sometimes they squeeze crazy numbers of houses on an acre. 5 or 6  houses with small yards or more with no yards is not uncommon. But you can't usually divide up properties into parcels on your own. You would need to check local laws and specific laws pertaining to that particular property and county. 4000 square feet is monstrous for a house here. Cost wise especially. 

Re the garbage...I am only 5-10 minutes outside town and have a private contract to have the garbage picked up at my house once a week like city service. I just find my own company willing to come out and pay their fees and tada! done deal. Except that no one had us on any map when we moved in and so we had a bear of a time getting service started. I was literally standing on my front porch talking to a rep saying " but I am looking right at one of your trucks picking up trash at my neighbors...he turned around right in front of my house... that's how I got your number!!!????!!!" I had the same conversation with 3 different companies before we finally got service with the 2nd company after all!!!!I live in the twilight zone. Don't even ask me about trying to get telephone service!

If you have been on city water and sewer and have to now maintain a well and septic tank expect some unexpected surprise costs too. Wells have to be repaired every now and then...I spent around $1800 this last year for 2 repairs to the well (one was for new wires and one was for some other technical stuff and minor repairs). Septic tanks have to be treated kindly with nice bacteria every month and seasonal pump outs ($250-300 per pump out). You should also be careful of the chemicals and cleaners you send down the drain because they can seriously affect your septics digestive balance.

Hope that helps a little. Good luck!


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## Kitdragon2000 (Sep 15, 2012)

@ragdollcatlady Thank you For all the information!!!! THANK YOU Thank You!!!!!!!!  We had a friend who mentioned the same thing about the zoning, so i went hunting and in our county farm animal min: 1 acre or greater, farm animals max 2 per acre, limitation on horses min:2 horses per acre 1+ per 20,000 sqft, hogs min: 2 net acres, max # of hogs: 3 w/ 1 being a breeding sow small animal max # 20 per acre

We have the friend who is looking into the houses / property for us and she knows we want it zoned for livestock... you would think on your own land you can do whatever you want. stupid people.  there is something our realiter friend was talking about that you may know if you lived in san jose it was called SIDS if i remember correctly it was irrigated water that would be able to be used for anything But drinking... that's something she was looking into.

Omg that's horrible about your phone and garbage!!! We weren't wanting to be that far out, but still something to think about!! Glad you were able to get someone out for you!!

Again Thank You SO much for answering!! I really Appreciate as much information as possible, and you guys have certainly been Awesome!!


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## Shayanna (Sep 17, 2012)

neighbors are a big factor too. When we first moved in, we had our goats tethered (we were there to watch them, and we brought them in at night), and each goat had their own water and obviously plenty of food as we rotated them trhough the area. And the neighbor decided to call animal control saying they didn't have food or water and were very neglected. Well the animal control lady showed up, and our 200 lb alpine buck, who was patrolling the yard with my husband, went right up to the animal control lady and demanded a beard scratching. Obviously not neglected. Either way, I guess my point is, get to know your neighbors and what kind of people they are, especially if they can see what goes on in your yard.


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## EllieMay (Sep 17, 2012)

I grew up in the Bay Area and moved away because of all the restrictions (and the cost).
I finally found a little piece of property with a house and a couple of barns where I can raise my sheep and grow my own food with NO restrictions.  

That being said, no matter where you live, you still have to do your homework.
And it seems you are doing an awesome job of asking a lot of good questions and getting some very good advice!
Sounds like you and your family will be very happy once you find a place to settle.

Because I was from the Bay Area, I had to ask questions about septic and trash.
We are on septic here but still use city water (we plan on digging a well next year).
If you're building more than one house, you will have to find out about septic solutions for your situation.

The neighbors around us just burn their trash, but we opted to pay for trash pick up once a week.
Of course, that means dragging the trash can down the long driveway to the street.

We are in the process of putting up field fencing and cross-fencing. 
This was a cattle farm with barbed wire fencing, which doesn't keep my sheep (or dogs) inside.
We also use electric netting to move the sheep around to various pastures.

Even though you and your family are cool living very close together, I personally would advise not building the homes too close together.
Living close together does get old after a while.
Also, if you ever decide to sell the property, it will sell a whole lot better if the homes are spaced farther apart for privacy.

GOOD LUCK and keep us posted on what's going on!
I'm keeping my eye on this thread so I can learn some more from all the gread advice folks are posting!


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## BootsNDaisy (Sep 17, 2012)

I agree with EllieMay. You have asked a lot of good questions, and have gotten some great advise and answers! I would say, don't go with electric fencing. If the power goes out, then your fence is down. We have fenced in 2 cows and 2 goats without electric fencing.  The proper fencing to make sure they don't get out for  cows, we would definitely recommend 5 strands of 12 gauge barbed wire and the poles and posts at the correct spacing . ( My son says to tell you to get a good pair of leather gloves cause the barbed wire will tear your flesh open in a heart beat! :/) And our goats are fenced in with Goat fencing. The goat fencing is very thick, and they can't chew through it, or jump over it. (However, the deer can!)  We would recommend you stake it into the ground. The recommended acreage per cow is 2 acres per yr. and for goats, you can have 4 goats on 1 acre. I am going to mention, you should have 2 pastures for the cows, if you so choose to have them. They will tear up a pasture, it's good to keep them off of one while the other is being used. If you split them half and half, you can seed each one at different times of the year. Which will give you healthy pastures. We also put pens in our pastures. They eat everything in one, and every three or four days, we move them into another one. It is good to have chickens by your herds, cause they eat the maggots from the manure. Which intern, means less flies mature. And they help to spread the manure around to fertilize the pastures. (Turkey are also great for that!)  You can build a decent coop that will hold 25 chickens and won't take up much space at all. If your going to have any farm animals, just remember, it's like having a baby.  You will have to be at home, at 2 times of the day, every-day. Which means, no vacations of any sort, or going out for the weekend, unless someone is home at all times, to do the milking twice a day, feeding, cleaning, brushing, hoof care, keeping their water clean, and  the list goes on..!  It's a big responsibility!  It's a big responsibility having even just a small farm. Cause you don't just want your animals to survive, you want them to thrive! They are totally dependent on you. Hope this helps! Best wishes to you and your family!


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