# Problems with a Lesson Pony



## LMK17 (Nov 21, 2019)

I’m pretty new to horses, having begun weekly lessons with my children & a highly regarded trainer fewer than 18 months ago.  For the most part, I really love our trainer & lesson barn.  The trainer is helping us move right along in our riding, and *nearly* all of her lesson ponies are gentle and well trained.  There is one exception.  The horse that I usually ride has a well-earned reputation for being aggressive.  If another one of the horses is sporting an injury, it’s a fair bet that he was the one which inflicted it, and the trainer has warned me from the get-go to be wary of him and his bad manners.

I actually enjoy _riding_ this horse.  He does great under saddle, and I feel like he and I work well together.  But his ground manners are atrocious, and I dread working with him from the ground.  Until fairly recently, he did well for me, and I didn’t personally witness his bad side.  However, he was under a vet’s care a couple months ago, and he suddenly began being much more testy with me.  He snatched a halter out of my hands and tossed it when I was trying to halter him in his stall.  He’d treaten a bite.  And he once tried to kick me, though I was too close to him for him to do any real damage, and I just got bumped a little with his hock.  The trainer was aware of his attitude problem, attributed it to a change in his medications, and was actively working to help settle him down.  Fair enough.   However, that was several weeks ago, and while he has calmed a bit, he recently gave me two (minor) injuries while I was working with him.  First, he was dancing around threatening to kick, and while I was watching his hind legs, one of his front hooves smashed squarely on my foot, giving me a nasty bruise.  Then a couple weeks later, he bit me on the arm, drawing blood.

I don’t appreciate being knocked around by someone else’s misbehaving horse.  If he were my animal, obviously I would have an incentive to work with him and change his behavior, but he’s not my animal and as far as I’m concerned, not my problem.  Frankly, I’m paying for lessons to improve in my riding and general horsemanship.  It’s a fun activity that I enjoy with my children.  It’s not worth getting seriously injured by a bad-tempered animal.  I also think it’s a bad idea for the trainer to continue using this animal as a lesson pony when she knows he can be aggressive.  (As far as I can tell, she doesn’t allow any children or brand-new riders near him, so there’s that.)  I mentioned to her today that I would rather ride a different horse going forward, but she seemed pretty dismissive of the idea.  She said I can’t “completely give up” on this horse and that giving in would allow him to get away with his bad behavior.  (I agree to a point.  For example, if I had gotten frightened and refused to ride him immediately after he bit me, that would send him the wrong message.  However, I don’t see how working him hard immediately after he bit me and then simply switching to a new horse the following week would be allowing him to “get away with” anything.)   She also said she thinks the reason he bit me was that I “let me guard down” around him.  (Again, I’m riding mainly for fun.  I don’t want nor need to be paired with a horse with whom I need to be constantly on-guard.  There are enough good natured horses in the world that I don’t feel like I need to spend time with this ill-tempered brute!)

This is making me seriously consider shopping for a new trainer or at least insisting that I be assigned a different lesson animal.  Though until now, I’ve trusted this trainer completely— and trusted her with my young children!  Am I being unreasonable?


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Nov 21, 2019)

Oh no she didn't!  She expects you to keep paying to be abused by HER ill-mannered horse?  Nope - no way!  She's putting herself and her business in jeopardy by continuing to use this guy.  He is a serious liability!  I would either refuse to ride this horse again or find a new trainer.  This is atrocious behavior on her part.  

You are NOT being unreasonable.


----------



## LMK17 (Nov 21, 2019)

Thanks.  That’s pretty much what I though.  

It’s a real head-scratcher, though.  This trainer came highly recommended and has a good reputation, as far as I can tell.  She has several lovely, well behaved lesson ponies.  I can’t figure out for the life of me why she keeps using this guy for lessons!  It seems like a gigantic lapse of judgement for this otherwise conscientious trainer.  🤷‍♀️


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Nov 21, 2019)

Terrible lack of judgment in my opinion! Totally agree with you on that.


----------



## thistlebloom (Nov 21, 2019)

Completely agree with @frustratedearthmother 's take on your situation. To put the blame on you for her ill mannered horse's dangerous and spoiled behavior is over the top.

Might be time to reevaluate and look for a new trainer. Seems like you've been fortunate to not be seriously injured so far.


----------



## promiseacres (Nov 21, 2019)

I agree, why pay to get bit.  
He may make you a better horseperson in the long run but why deal with a horse that doesn't improve in attitude but gets worse. He is nasty for a reason but it isn't up to you to figure that out. I am guessing he is painful somewhere and your trainer really needs to find a solution for his behavior. Obviously a more advanced rider should be able to handle a more advanced horse but it's ridiculous to expect your students to train your horses basic manners.


----------



## High Desert Cowboy (Nov 21, 2019)

It is not unreasonable to want a different horse.  I used to teach riding lessons to augment my finances in college and I would never dream in a million years of putting someone on an animal that behaves that way. You’re paying to better your horsemanship.  Not to train her animals.  And if no one else is riding that pony and you’re only getting to it once or twice a week the situation will not get better and could in fact lead to injury of not just yourself but others as well.  I’ve seen horses throw kicks or bites at others when both are under saddle and connect with the other riders leg instead of the other animal.  As an instructor your first responsibility is to the safety of the customer. I’ll also add that while some states protect a professional from lawsuits in the event of injury, that protection can go right out the window if you’re knowingly putting people in danger.


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 22, 2019)

LMK17 said:


> I’m paying for lessons to improve in my riding and general horsemanship.




Unfortunately,  horsemanship often involves dealing with horses with less-than-wonderful attitudes. One of the best ways I know to turn a good horse into a bad one is to use him as a lesson pony. They  get so fed up with confusing signals and other sorts of poor riding that they decide to start dishing it out themselves, and boy, can they get creative! Lesson ponies that stay sweet in spite of the aggravation are few and far between; most need at least occasional "attitude adjustments" to keep them doing their job properly. Horses with any real smarts or spirit usually wind up acting out in some way, even if it's just being impossible to catch in the field. Some eventually get so sour, they simply must be retired; sounds like this guy is getting close to that point.

I worked as a feeder at a boarding/lesson barn for a few years, and I got to see the bad side of an awful lot of horses. See, the feeders don't do any actual "training," so the horses think they can walk all over them. Virtually all horses have some degree of pushiness; at least once in a while, they are going to try to see whether or not the rules are still the rules.  Nobody can tell me, "I'm not a horse trainer," if you interact with the horse in any way, he will learn something from you. The fact is, every person that a horse gets exposed to teaches it something, even if it's just "you can/can't get away with that with me."

As @promiseacres said, this could be a pain issue. It might be a people issue (to borrow a line from The Horse Whisperer). Your trainer seems to think that you are a strong enough individual to handle this horse; perhaps she is wrong. I agree that it's no fun to be constantly on guard around an animal; disrespect is one thing, but it sounds like this horse has crossed the line from "disrespectful" to "dangerous." If he really is more horse than you can safely handle, then yes, you should be working with a different horse, for both of your sakes.


----------



## MiniGoatsRule (Nov 22, 2019)

I think you should just ask your instructor to sit down with you, have lunch, something relaxing... Something that makes both of you feel comfortable about this. Just say something like, "Hey, I don't see how working a horse after he bit me or kicked me or hurt me is letting him get away with anything. I would not like to pay to be training your horse for you. This is your animal, not mine. I can easily give you a bad referral." Just talk it out from there. Once you think things are nice and calmed down, then yes, ask again to ride a different horse. If she says no, or if things end up in another argument or fight, then just end the situation by doing what you've been threatening to do: Give her a bad referral and hire somebody else. And remember, if anything goes wrong and you aren't sure what to do, just come back to BYH. I like to think of everybody as a family here (a family of people off the internet who, for the most part, don't know each other, but still, a family of sorts). So find a relaxed situation in which to ask your instructor to switch your riding horse, and if it doesn't work out, just find somebody more understanding.


----------



## Mini Horses (Nov 22, 2019)

I agree with everyone.    If she feels you can "handle" the horse you need to actually be allowed and taught WHAT to do when he begins the attacks.  A horse can & will take advantage, they can & will respond to proper corrections, they can & will act out, straighten up, respect -- but, not just because the trainers says, keep riding him.  No, it will take "re training" of the attitude.  Not your responsibility.

Could be many reasons for the temperament changes.   Just NOT what you need to handle when paying her.  Would you pay rental on a car that wouldn't start up?     You are perfectly right in your thoughts.


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 22, 2019)

MiniGoatsRule said:


> I don't see how working a horse after he bit me or kicked me or hurt me is letting him get away with anything.




Now, what_ I _don't see is how the horse is supposed to relate being worked, however hard (or not) the work is, to him biting or kicking. With horses, they talk about the "three second rule;" whatever you do about the horse's bad behavior, if it doesn't come within three seconds of whatever he did that he shouldn't have done, he will not understand that the two are in any way related. If the horse tries to bite  you, within  3 seconds of that attempt, you must get in his face so bad that he thinks you are gonna rip it off, or else, in his mind, he got away with it. If you take him out to the ring and work him into the ground, all he learns is that going in the ring with you is exhausting, that's all - not even a hint of him having earned that workout by bad behavior. That's horses. (Please understand that because biting is a seriously dangerous behavior, I feel it warrants a very serious response. I'm not talking about hurting the horse, merely making the horse_ think_ you will).



MiniGoatsRule said:


> I would not like to pay to be training your horse for you.



Here again, is something I don't understand. As I said, everyone who has_ any_ interaction with the horse is training it to some extent. Maybe if I use Syd as an example, you'll see what I mean.

At 40 inches (10 hands), Syd is an oversized miniature horse (both of her parents were registered minis). I've had her since she was a baby, and she's -uhhhhhh - pretty lively. About the time she turned 2 years old, she decided she wanted to be the boss mare, and started pushing the other animals in her paddock around. Unfortunately, she thought she could boss people around, too. She only tried it with me once, and my response was so definitive, she's never tried it again.

In horse society, young animals are naturally outranked by older ones. Horses recognize age in humans, too. When I felt they were both old enough, I got my daughter to start helping me work with Syd. I told her, "I can tell Syd how to behave around me. I can tell her how to behave around you when I'm here, but for you to be safe, you have to be able to tell her how to behave when I'm _not _here."

Fast forward a year or two, and I'm at our county fair. We normally have a lot of volunteers doing work all over the barn, but on this particular occasion, I'm picking out the extra-large stall that all three of my minis are in. They are all standing around, munching hay or otherwise minding their own business. The livestock superintendent walks by, and as she passes, she remarks, "aw, gee, look at Syd, being all good."

Uh, oh.. Cringing, I asked, "what has she been doing?"
"Oh, nothing, really," she replied. "It's just that we have a lot of kids who aren't used to horses, and she's been turning her backside and threatening to kick them when they come in to clean the stall. "

Notice, she said _kids. _Not everyone; Syd at that time was quite safe for the adults to handle or work around, it's just the ones she thought she might have a chance to push around that she was threatening. I told the super, "you tell them for  me, that if they are in here with a rake or something and she threatens to kick, they have my permission to smack her on the butt with that rake. She has got to learn that she can't threaten people!"

Now, you might think it was unfair for me to expose those kids to a brat like that; that I ought to teach her better. But that's the rub - she wouldn't behave like that around me, she wouldn't _dare_, but one thing I couldn't teach was how she was to behave when the boss mare (me) wasn't there to enforce good behavior. In this situation, I needed _them_ to do the correcting, because the behavior was only happening _with them_. Is that asking them to train my horse? I suppose it is, but nothing_ I_ could do would correct it, because it wasn't happening when I was there.


As for the OP and this horse, well, theoretically the reason one takes lessons is to become a more skilled and confident horseperson. If this horse's behavior is scaring her, she's becoming less confident, not more, and that's not good for her. The horse is going to respond to her fear and uncertainty by upping the ante, and that's not good for _him_. The trainer needs to take the situation seriously, and deal with it appropriately.


----------



## Mini Horses (Nov 22, 2019)

Bunnylady, I agree.   Timing s critical!  However, doesn't sound like the trainer is training for disciplinary actions, or suggesting it.   That is why I feel it is not the riders responsibility.  Not her horse and she is paying to use a safe horse.  We both know that a horse is dangerous in these circumstances.   If mine, I'd be in his face!!!   I AM boss mare in all my pastures -- as you, in yours.   There is a huge amount of confidence that is needed and this is being eroded there.   Along with "reading" the horse.

Your last paragraph says it all.


----------



## Baymule (Nov 23, 2019)

I agree with what has been said. I am dumbfounded that your trainer is putting you in this situation. Forget about being nice to this idiot, flat out refuse to deal with this horse. It’s her problem, not yours. If she gets offended or blows you off again, there’s all the proof you need to switch trainers. 

If a horse behaved like this to me, I would come unwound and make it a memorable occasion. I have had horses all my life and am confident in my leadership. You are a beginner and shouldn’t be put in this situation. Bad on your trainer for this.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Nov 23, 2019)

A few years back we took our students on a fieldtrip/retreat that had riding stables.  The kids loved it and I went on every guided ride with them.  The first ride went really well and all the horses were well-behaved.  Second ride a gorgeous, stout app gelding decided he didn't want to go.  The guides were trying to tell the student, who had never been on a horse, what to do and how to get this horse turned around.  It wasn't working and the guides weren't intervening.  I rode over on my horse and rescued the student by leading the horse out of the bushes.  Then we switched horses.  Little app decided he really didn't like me because I'm about 50 lbs heavier than the student that was on him.  No sooner than I had settled into the saddle he started crow-hopping and wanted to head towards a tree with a low hanging branch.  About a half a second later he found himself going in tight circles with his head pulled around to my knee.  He stopped acting a fool and I released the pressure.  I headed him back to the trail and this dummy tried it again.  He got more circles and a couple of slaps with the reins to keep him moving when he tried to freeze his feet.  One more try and he decided it was easier to go on the trail ride.  He was one of their newer horses and hadn't got with the program yet - this helped convince him.  Best part of that whole experience was the look on my student's faces and the stories they told the next batch of students waiting for their ride, lol!


----------



## HomesteaderWife (Nov 23, 2019)

To keep it short, I am honestly amazed a horse that now knowingly has behavioral problems is still paired up with a newer rider (with no offense to you). Yes, learning how to handle a horse and handle yourself around them is important, but it doesn't seem you are there for _HORSE TRAINING_ lessons..you're there to learn about riding with a trustworthy horse. It seems like the vet visit really got to him, and covering some ground manners with him and helping him understand not everyone is out to get him would be wise. I know alot of stables here have a sign saying something along the lines of not being responsible for accidents but....sheesh.


----------



## secuono (Nov 23, 2019)

I think it is part of your job to reprimand the horse. Otherwise, your paying to be beat up and not learning how to correct horses.
I'm going to tell off any horse on the end of my lead, wether it is mine, a strangers or my trainers. Heck, any horse not mine is going to be on a strict lead, since I don't know them and their behavior like I do my own.

I see three options-

Start correcting the horse, fast n hard, be serious. If you don't know how, which it seems like you don't, since you tunnel focus on hinds and don't see the fronts, demand ground lessons for yourself so that you can handle the horse. If trainer doesn't like you reprimanding him or learning how, then she can move you to another horse.

Flat out demand to use a different horse. You pay for the lessons, you choose to use a safer horse. It seems like she's not using him as a way to teach you anything, thus there is no reason to stay with that horse. 

Lastly, you move to a different trainer.


----------



## LMK17 (Nov 26, 2019)

Thanks for all the responses!  Some good thoughts here!

I am just slightly torn over what to do.  Like I said, I’m riding for fun, period.  Naturally, I’d like to become as good of a horseperson as I reasonably can, but I’m a very casual, one lesson a week kind of rider right now, and I don’t intend to become any more “serious” about it any time soon.  Although I certainly realize there is inherent risk in working with big animals and climbing onto their backs for a ride, I’m really not looking to assume any additional risk by tackling a crabby horse.  I have my own farm and family to look after- if I get hurt doing something totally unnecessary, there’s no one to come and look after my own animals while I recover!  Totally not worth it!  (And I’ll add, on my own farm, I very carefully cull for temperament.  If I feel I can’t safely work with an animal- or let my children around it- that critter gets a one-way ticket to town.  Fast.)  

On the other hand, this horse has taught me many things already, especially as they pertain to equine body language and discipline.  A small part of me doesn’t want to miss out on other lessons that I can learn from dealing with this bad beast.  And he is fun to ride.  I’ve ridden other lesson ponies at this barn, and I just don’t find them to be as enjoyable as this guy.  



Mini Horses said:


> I agree with everyone.    If she feels you can "handle" the horse you need to actually be allowed and taught WHAT to do when he begins the attacks.



She definitely encourages me to keep him on a short leash.  She once told me something along the lines of, “You just need to go in there with the attitude that you’re going to have to hit him.  The first time he even _thinks_ about misbehaving, get it over with and move on.”  I have smacked him, and I’ve definitely given him several talkings-to.  I feel like I _could_ handle him; I’m just not all that interested in actually doing it.

I can’t say for sure, but I suspect she keeps assigning me this guy because I’m used to working with big animals (I have cattle, for example) and don’t get easily intimidated by him.  Another time, when I was complaining about his behavior, she told me to just treat him like I would one of my own misbehaving animals.  I responded with something along the lines of, “Kill him and put him in the freezer?!” I was in a bad mood that day.  



Bunnylady said:


> Now, what_ I _don't see is how the horse is supposed to relate being worked, however hard (or not) the work is, to him biting or kicking. With horses, they talk about the "three second rule;" whatever you do about the horse's bad behavior, if it doesn't come within three seconds of whatever he did that he shouldn't have done, he will not understand that the two are in any way related. If the horse tries to bite  you, within  3 seconds of that attempt, you must get in his face so bad that he thinks you are gonna rip it off, or else, in his mind, he got away with it. If you take him out to the ring and work him into the ground, all he learns is that going in the ring with you is exhausting, that's all - not even a hint of him having earned that workout by bad behavior. That's horses. (Please understand that because biting is a seriously dangerous behavior, I feel it warrants a very serious response. I'm not talking about hurting the horse, merely making the horse_ think_ you will.





Mini Horses said:


> Bunnylady, I agree.   Timing s critical!  However, doesn't sound like the trainer is training for disciplinary actions, or suggesting it.   That is why I feel it is not the riders responsibility.  Not her horse and she is paying to use a safe horse.  We both know that a horse is dangerous in these circumstances.   If mine, I'd be in his face!!!   I AM boss mare in all my pastures -- as you, in yours.   There is a huge amount of confidence that is needed and this is being eroded there.   Along with "reading" the horse.





Baymule said:


> If a horse behaved like this to me, I would come unwound and make it a memorable occasion. I have had horses all my life and am confident in my leadership. You are a beginner and shouldn’t be put in this situation. Bad on your trainer for this.



Well, when he has bitten or kicked or whatever, I have slapped him and then gotten in his face.  (Though since he has continued to be a brat, perhaps I didn’t hit him hard enough nor yell at him enough?)  Then I went right back to tacking him up and taking him out to work— So it’s not as though I *only* worked him.  Rather, he got an immediate correction and also still had to go out and work.  This is what the trainer has been having me do, and it makes sense to me.   

Probably I’m not reading him well.  I think I might be ignoring/not noticing some of his less dangerous bad behaviors and opening the door to his escalating to biting or kicking since I allow him to “get away with” less dangerous posturing.  I’ll need to work on that.  I do think reading a horse is something that comes in time, and I do think I’m still too new to horses for the trainer to stand back and let me struggle with a known aggressive one.  I think I would benefit from at least some hand-holding and her being nearby to say, “See that?  Correct it.“



secuono said:


> I think it is part of your job to reprimand the horse. Otherwise, your paying to be beat up and not learning how to correct horses...
> 
> Start correcting the horse, fast n hard, be serious. If you don't know how, which it seems like you don't, since you tunnel focus on hinds and don't see the fronts, demand ground lessons for yourself so that you can handle the horse. If trainer doesn't like you reprimanding him or learning how, then she can move you to another horse.



Yes, I’m sure I could do with some ground lessons myself.  As for getting stepped on,  I don’t exactly think it was a case of tunnel vision.  Here was the set up:  I had just finished tacking the brute and was leading him out of his stall.  There were other horses and riders in the aisle in the barn, and as I was leading him through the stall gate, he started hopping around like he wanted to kick the gate behind him.  He had done that same thing the week before and did kick the gate then.  I was growling at him to settle down, while also trying to get him through the gate and then get the gate shut without anyone or anything getting kicked.  Kind of several things were going on at once, and though I was trying to keep an eye on everything, I didn’t see the front hoof until it smashed down on me.  Honest question- How could I have better handled that situation?  Maybe just halted him halfway through the gate and held him until the calmed?  

***

I’m going to talk to our trainer about all this.  I am also leaning toward finding a new trainer.  I’ve already talked to her about being knocked around by her horse, and I really don’t think she took his dangerous behavior seriously enough.  I’d like to think that if I were in her shoes, even if I thought the client could handle the horse, I would have been quite alarmed to hear that he was being so disrespectful/dangerous and would have immediately stepped in to assess everything and help the client work with the animal.  But in reality, the trainer has been really very carefree about the whole thing:  “Oh, he must have you on his list at the moment.  Other than with you, he’s been really good for about 3 weeks now,” was the response I got from her after he bit me.  

I have two other questions, especially for those who have either provided lessons/training or have taken lessons: 

What condition do you expect the shared/lesson tack to be in?  One thing that has consistently bothered me about this barn is that much of the tack is simply a mess.  Rusted buckles, mismatched stirrup leathers, and extremely worn saddles are pretty much the norm.  I certainly wouldn’t expect the most beautiful gear to be used for lessons, but this stuff is pretty bad!  What bothers me most is that the other week, as I was tightening a saddle, the very worn and badly stretched billet strap simply snapped.  I couldn’t even use that saddle then because the third billet strap on that side had been previously broken and not replaced, yet the saddle had remained in use unrepaired.  Aesthetics aside, such badly worn tack is obviously dangerous.  (Granted, that particular saddle is worse than most.)  Surely the trainer/owner has a duty to ensure that the tack is serviceable and safe!?

Also, how would you all suggest that a trainer approaches/trains children?  What activities might a trainer incorporate into lessons to make them enjoyable for kids?  As an adult, I really appreciate that this trainer insists on excellent form while riding.  I have no problem at all being told, “That was sloppy.  Do it again.”  My children, however, are being bored to tears with lessons.  (The kids are ages 7 & 10.)  My son has taken to saying that he “hates horses” and that he never wants to ride again.  (However, he has said he would be willing to try with a new teacher.)  Even my horse-crazy daughter has become considerably less enthusiastic about them.  Certainly proper form is important, and working with horses isn’t always fun and games, but surely a trainer can find a way to incorporate some sort of fun into a lesson, at least occasionally?


----------



## thistlebloom (Nov 26, 2019)

LMK17 said:


> Probably I’m not reading him well. I think I might be ignoring/not noticing some of his less dangerous bad behaviors and opening the door to his escalating to biting or kicking since I allow him to “get away with” less dangerous posturing. I’ll need to work on that. I do think reading a horse is something that comes in time, and I do think I’m still too new to horses for the trainer to stand back and let me struggle with a known aggressive one. I think I would benefit from at least some hand-holding and her being nearby to say, “See that? Correct it.“



I think you are on point here. Horses usually don't escalate to a kick or bite without first sending more subtle signs. Being tuned in to and reading that subtlety takes some practice, and time, as you said. Time is the ticklish thing here though isn't it? Since it sounds like you intend this to be more of a casual, pleasant enterprise and you have only limited time to spend on it I don't have any criticism for the way you have handled it, or for your frustration at the trainers attitude. 
As another poster said, every single time we interact with a horse we're training it ,even when we aren't actually physically handling it.





LMK17 said:


> What condition do you expect the shared/lesson tack to be in? One thing that has consistently bothered me about this barn is that much of the tack is simply a mess. Rusted buckles, mismatched stirrup leathers, and extremely worn saddles are pretty much the norm. I certainly wouldn’t expect the most beautiful gear to be used for lessons, but this stuff is pretty bad! What bothers me most is that the other week, as I was tightening a saddle, the very worn and badly stretched billet strap simply snapped. I couldn’t even use that saddle then because the third billet strap on that side had been previously broken and not replaced, yet the saddle had remained in use unrepaired. Aesthetics aside, such badly worn tack is obviously dangerous. (Granted, that particular saddle is worse than most.) Surely the trainer/owner has a duty to ensure that the tack is serviceable and safe!?



I would expect the equipment to be in excellent repair. Not fancy, not necessarily spotless, but definitely not broken or so worn it couldn't be trusted. And yes, I believe the trainer has a duty to see to the equipment, as well as the horses, that they are as safe as can be expected when you are dealing with a sport where the "equipment" has a brain and emotions.  I'm getting the impression that the attitude at this barn may be a little lackadaisical. 
Maybe the trainer has more students than she can handle and still have time to see to the rest of her jobs responsibilities?


As to your kids lessons, in my opinion I think strict form should take a back seat to enjoying the animal you're on. If they aren't preparing for a show ring, let them do some fun stuff on horseback. It's a shame that your son has a bad impression of riding now.

I grew up with horses, and never took formal lessons until I was an adult. I found out things then that I had to unlearn in order to relearn correctly, but as a kid we had lots of fun on our horses! It takes mental discipline and a burning desire to improve to "do it" right. At least that was my experience. I see the kids around here riding and I admit I do cringe at their lack of good horsemanship, but I see myself at their age and I know that the rest will follow if they are first allowed to just enjoy being on a horses back and develop a relationship with a horse.


----------



## promiseacres (Nov 26, 2019)

Games and obstacles and patterns are great for lessons. Follow the leader, red light/green light and Simon says all can be done on horseback, among others. Setting up barrels, cones, ground poles as obstacles can all be fun and great learning tools to direct  your horse around and through. Patterns you need to do, ie walk 5 steps,  2 circles to the left at a trot, then halt and reverse are fun too. 
Obviously tack breaks, wear and tear does happen.  But not a good sign. Trainer should be checking tack regularly and replacing before it breaks.


----------



## Baymule (Nov 26, 2019)

Your post has made me angry. This __________ (bad words) so called "trainer" is flippant towards your concerns of your own safety. She is ignoring your requests for a different horse, worse yet, she's blowing you off like you are some unimportant sub-life form.  

Yes, a horse can be "read" and bad behavior can be headed off before it manifests itself. Or the behavior can be down played and the horse immediately corrected. Or you can see it coming and get out of the way and save yourself from injury.  You are admitting that you are not reading the horse's behavior, this cannot be taught in a casual lesson once a week. This can take years of being with horses, understanding their flight behavior, their herd hierarchy, lead mare, social behaviors and so on.

The tack is in dangerous condition. Never use it again. Period. It is time to leave this place. What if your children were placed in broken tack and were injured?

Slapping a horse like this one is ridiculous. You could smack him hard enough to make your hand sting, and it won't hurt him. This is an animal that the lead mare would BITE, KICK and RUN HIM AWAY FROM THE HERD. And your "trainer" says to slap him? A slap would only work if you and him were in tune to each other, he was NOT a accident waiting to happen, and if he actually listened to you, which he is not. This horse has your number and he doesn't respect you, or anybody.

She is ruining the joy for your children. That is where I got mad. How DARE she? I go mamma tiger where children are concerned. This alone should make you never go back, let alone the other incidents. She is picking them apart, being hyper critical and sucking the life out of them. These are your children, get them away from this ___________(more bad words).

I have horses and have had most of my life. I care not for form and how correct I ride. I call my style of riding Western Schlump. I schlump around for my own enjoyment. I have never shown and don't care. What I care about is the enjoyment I get out of riding. The enjoyment is being stolen from your children.

I may sound harsh here, if that hurts your feelings, I'll shut up and go away. I'm just really ticked off. Tell me to shut up and I will.


----------



## Baymule (Nov 26, 2019)

thistlebloom said:


> I grew up with horses, and never took formal lessons until I was an adult. I found out things then that I had to unlearn in order to relearn correctly, but as a kid we had lots of fun on our horses! It takes mental discipline and a burning desire to improve to "do it" right. At least that was my experience. I see the kids around here riding and I admit I do cringe at their lack of good horsemanship, but I see myself at their age and I know that the rest will follow if they are first allowed to just enjoy being on a horses back and develop a relationship with a horse.



As a kid, I rode bareback, barefooted, immersed in the freedom of flying at a fast gallop. It was wonderful. As an old lady with a bum knee, I ride with a saddle, boots on, immersed in the freedom of flying at a fast gallop. It is wonderful.


----------



## Bunnylady (Nov 27, 2019)

Gee, Bay, tell us how you_ really_ feel.



LMK17 said:


> Surely the trainer/owner has a duty to ensure that the tack is serviceable and safe!?



_Absolutely_ they do!

As is the case in many states, people who expose the public to horses are required by law to post the usual sign warning  about not being responsible for injuries, due to the inherent risk of equine activities, but there is an addendum: the person who is providing the activity has the responsibility of doing all that is reasonably possible to minimize that risk. Tack can break without warning, but tack that is_ known_ to be in poor condition and then breaks puts the owner at risk of a lawsuit.

Kids aren't the only ones who get bored, the horses do, too. Certainly, the kids need to learn how to move the horses where they need them to go without falling off, and good position is part of that, but their attention spans are only so long. All work and no play, etc.  I know, some kids are like, "OK, I'm bored. I've gone around this ring 3 times without falling off, now I want to jump something," which can be tiresome, but as @promiseacres said, there are other ways to change things up and keep them interesting.

At least one bored, irritable, possibly hurting horse, tack not being maintained, dull, tedious lessons - this sounds like a program going downhill. Wonder what's happening with the trainer?



LMK17 said:


> I had just finished tacking the brute and was leading him out of his stall. There were other horses and riders in the aisle in the barn, and as I was leading him through the stall gate, he started hopping around like he wanted to kick the gate behind him. He had done that same thing the week before and did kick the gate then. I was growling at him to settle down, while also trying to get him through the gate and then get the gate shut without anyone or anything getting kicked. Kind of several things were going on at once, and though I was trying to keep an eye on everything, I didn’t see the front hoof until it smashed down on me. Honest question- How could I have better handled that situation? Maybe just halted him halfway through the gate and held him until the calmed



Gates and doors, oh boy.  I think it was on BYC that a member mentioned starting to lead a quiet, well-behaved older horse he had owned all of her life in or out of a stall, and the next thing he knew, he was picking himself up off the floor with one heck of a concussion, and no idea what had happened. Big, fast animal, hard surfaces, confined space - it's potentially dangerous, even with the quiet ones.

Any idea why the horse would want to kick the door? Had someone banged it into him, or was he just trying to make noise and spook the other horses? Which side of that door did he want to be on - in, or out? Maybe this was his way of protesting having to go out and do work? Trying to get into the horse's head here; often, knowing why something happens is a part of dealing with it.

If all that was at risk is the door, I wouldn't be that worried about it, myself. Hitting the door won't be a comfortable thing to do, with any luck, it would actually be painful, which should make him less inclined to want to do it again (some people install "kicking rails" in stalls of horses that habitually kick the walls; they are high enough that the horse bangs his leg on the rail, instead of hitting the wall with his foot). I'm more concerned with the dancing than the kicking in this situation.

I would not go through a doorway with a fractious horse. I'd get him settled on the inside or the outside, and only proceed through when he could go quietly. If he starts to blow  up near the doorway, he's going backwards to where he came from (horses generally prefer to move forwards, so making one back up is often used as a disciplinary measure). This is one of those "make the right choice easy, and the wrong one hard" situations. If he walks quietly, we go forward, if he blows up, he goes backward or we chase his tail. He doesn't get to just stand in the stall or the aisle unless I ask him to - and he'd better do it when I ask. I'd go in and out several times; when he stands or goes quietly, it's "good boy!" and a bit of petting. I'd do the same thing at the end of the lesson - in and out several times, until he doesn't know whether he's coming or going, but he knows he has to listen to me. Though truth to tell, this isn't something I'd like to be doing with the distraction of other people and horses in the aisle, at least, not the first time - and this really is something that should be done by someone who can "read" the horse's body language well.


----------



## Baymule (Nov 27, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> Gee, Bay, tell us how you_ really_ feel.



 Ok, I've calmed down now. Still disgusted at the idiot putting @LMK17 in a dangerous situation and blowing her off when she expressed concerns. Really disgusted at this idiot sucking all the joy out of the kids.


----------



## MiniGoatsRule (Nov 27, 2019)

Baymule said:


> Your post has made me angry. This __________ (bad words) so called "trainer" is flippant towards your concerns of your own safety. She is ignoring your requests for a different horse, worse yet, she's blowing you off like you are some unimportant sub-life form.
> 
> Yes, a horse can be "read" and bad behavior can be headed off before it manifests itself. Or the behavior can be down played and the horse immediately corrected. Or you can see it coming and get out of the way and save yourself from injury.  You are admitting that you are not reading the horse's behavior, this cannot be taught in a casual lesson once a week. This can take years of being with horses, understanding their flight behavior, their herd hierarchy, lead mare, social behaviors and so on.
> 
> ...


I completely agree.

This trainer is a (Hard for me not to put in a swear word...) and I am glad you are switching to another trainer, @LMK17. I'm surprised you haven't sued her... I'm kind of short tempered and if I were old enough, I would sue her *bleep* off. I can't believe she is using bad tack and a bad horse at the same time... That is too far. She obviously isn't suit to be a horseback instructor.

I hope you never need to run into this problem again... But if you do, you have experience and can use what we all have been using to help you with. I am so sorry to hear that you needed to deal with this.

I hope you have a good time with your new instructor!


----------



## Mini Horses (Nov 27, 2019)

LMK17 said:


> Although I certainly realize there is inherent risk in working with big animals and climbing onto their backs for a ride, I’m really not looking to assume any additional risk by tackling a crabby horse. I have my own farm and family to look after- if I get hurt doing something totally unnecessary, there’s no one to come and look after my own animals while I recover! Totally not worth it!



Which is why I do not have a riding animal at this time   I am a confident rider and like a spicy horse but, not wanting any accidents at this stage of my life.   PLUS I don't want to keep an animal if I don't feel I have the time to devote to the handling & care they need from me.   Already have these mini retiree pasture ornaments.




LMK17 said:


> . I think I would benefit from at least some hand-holding and her being nearby to say, “See that? Correct it.“



I agree.    AT THE SAME TIME -- reading over all this, I also question what the horse needs may be.  At some point there may have been trauma &/or prior handling that affects his responses to movement, sounds, etc.   Some can never overcome, others will with a LOT of desensitizing.   Early training methods & experiences can create issues.   

Shame that a level of comfort isn't happening for ALL.


----------



## Ridgetop (Nov 27, 2019)

I agree with everything that has been said here, but even more this trainer shouldn't be using this horse as a lesson horse.

First, It really doesn't matter *why* this horse acts this way. He is not your horse, you should not be retraining him. This horse is an accident waiting to happen. And the accident will be to you and anyone else around you if you continue to allow the trainer to put you up on him.  Some horses are just nasty tempered.  It really doesn't matter what happened to him in the past to make him this way - he should not be used as a lesson horse.  



LMK17 said:


> I had just finished tacking the brute and was leading him out of his stall. There were other horses and riders in the aisle in the barn, and as I was leading him through the stall gate, he started hopping around like he wanted to kick the gate behind him. He had done that same thing the week before and did kick the gate then.
> 
> It sounds as though your trainer (like many) is training out of a barn with other owners keeping their horses there.  This widens the possibility that the horse could cause an accident to yourself or to others.If this horse had actually kicked one of the other riders or horses, they could have come back on you as well as the owner of the horse.  After all,  you were _*know*_*ingly* using a dangerous horse, he was in *your custody and control*  at the time, therefore his actions at that time *could be attributed to you in case of a lawsuit or claim for damages *by others.  At the same time *you* will have no recourse against the trainer if you are seriously injured since you had prior knowledge of this horse's dangerous behavior.  Since you have willingly been riding him, you have assumed the risks and responsibility.
> 
> ...


----------



## Baymule (Nov 28, 2019)

LIKE LIKE LIKE!!!!!!


----------



## LMK17 (Dec 2, 2019)

Once again, thanks for all the thoughts!



thistlebloom said:


> As to your kids lessons, in my opinion I think strict form should take a back seat to enjoying the animal you're on. If they aren't preparing for a show ring, let them do some fun stuff on horseback. It's a shame that your son has a bad impression of riding now.
> 
> ...I see the kids around here riding and I admit I do cringe at their lack of good horsemanship, but I see myself at their age and I know that the rest will follow if they are first allowed to just enjoy being on a horses back and develop a relationship with a horse.



Excellent points!  Having ridden in a more formal setting for well over a year, the kids have the basics down just fine.  It’s definitely past time for them to start having fun on horseback.  And thanks for the insight on unlearning/relearning as an adult.  I’ve probably been too stuffy about the kids’ riding.  I was afraid that if they didn’t get it right from the start that they would pick up bad habits that would be too hard to unlearn later.  But I was missing the forest for the trees.

Ironically, we homeschool, and I‘m huge on helping kids keep their love of learning intact.  And yet, I wasn’t living out that advice with my kids and horses!  🤦‍♀️  I guess I’ve had my slice of humble pie for the day.  With our new trainer, I intend to request a bit of time at the start to allow the kids to “de-school” from the previous lessons and simply experience some fun with the horses before moving on to new/better skills.



promiseacres said:


> Games and obstacles and patterns are great for lessons. Follow the leader, red light/green light and Simon says all can be done on horseback, among others. Setting up barrels, cones, ground poles as obstacles can all be fun and great learning tools to direct  your horse around and through.



I love these suggestions, and that gives me some things to ask about when calling other barns!  Thanks!



Baymule said:


> She is ruining the joy for your children. That is where I got mad. How DARE she? I go mamma tiger where children are concerned. This alone should make you never go back, let alone the other incidents. She is picking them apart, being hyper critical and sucking the life out of them. These are your children, get them away from this ___________(more bad words).
> 
> What I care about is the enjoyment I get out of riding. The enjoyment is being stolen from your children.
> 
> I may sound harsh here, if that hurts your feelings, I'll shut up and go away. I'm just really ticked off. Tell me to shut up and I will.



I appreciate your honesty and concen!

Yes, I totally agree that her initial reactions when I told her about her horse’s dangerous behavior were just awful.  I can’t in a million years imagine being so flippant about the safety of someone who’s working with one of my animals!  To be perfectly honest, I really don’t mind being pared with this particular horse *IF* I have the trainer watching and instructing me on how to handle him.  This guy has a bad temper and is ill-suited to being a lesson horse— But I do think he could work wonders for my ground-handling skills _under the watchful eye of a good trainer_.  (And there’s the rub.)  The tack is inexcusable also.  I didn’t especially mind that it *looked* rough.  But it’s crossed the line from “well-worn” to dangerous, and I can’t overlook it anymore.

I do feel that I need to make some clarifications regarding the children, though.  I honestly and truly don’t think this trainer is sucking the life and all enjoyment out of them.  Really I don’t, and if I thought that were the case, I would have put my foot down long ago.  (FWIW, when I said they were “bored to tears,” I meant it as an expression only.  No one has cried over lessons to date!)  The more I reflect on it, the more I realize there is a better way of teaching horsemanship to children.  That said, I don’t think the trainer is _bad_ with the kids.  She’s just boring and maybe a little bit too stern.  When we started lessons with her, we were just as likely to be out riding in the field and on trails as we were to be in the arena.  Lately, though, the lessons have become very monotonous.  She uses her short trails for warming up and cooling down the horses, but that’s all.  The rest of the lesson is just going in circles in the arena.  I’ve been getting a bit tired of it, and the kids are certainly over it!  However, she is not as tough on the kids as she is on adults.  She honestly isn’t picking on them or being mean to them!

It is true that my son has asked to quit lessons and proclaims that he “hates horses,” but it’s not all the trainer’s fault.  Sure, she could make the lessons more enjoyable for him and hold his interest better, but he happens to be a kid with VERY strong opinions.  He either LOVES something or he HATES it.  There isn’t much middle ground with him.  (It drives me batty, to be honest!)  Just for the record, he also “hates soccer,” “hates Harry Potter”, and “hates the movie theater.”  

As for my daughter, she is a bit less enthusiastic about horses than she used to be, although I don’t think that’s all the trainer’s fault, either.  In fact, my daughter says she doesn’t want to switch stables and that she likes the trainer!  Part of her becoming less enthusiastic, I think, is that the lessons are tedious, but I believe it’s also that she expected riding to be much easier in general- Just hop on a horse and gallop into the sunset, like she sees on TV.  She was disappointed to find that wasn’t the case.  Regardless, she does enjoy riding, does well with it, and would probably continue to have some fun even if we stayed at the current barn.



Bunnylady said:


> At least one bored, irritable, possibly hurting horse, tack not being maintained, dull, tedious lessons - this sounds like a program going downhill. Wonder what's happening with the trainer?
> 
> Any idea why the horse would want to kick the door?
> 
> I would not go through a doorway with a fractious horse. I'd get him settled on the inside or the outside, and only proceed through when he could go quietly. If he starts to blow  up near the doorway, he's going backwards to where he came from (horses generally prefer to move forwards, so making one back up is often used as a disciplinary measure). This is one of those "make the right choice easy, and the wrong one hard" situations... Though truth to tell, this isn't something I'd like to be doing with the distraction of other people and horses in the aisle, at least, not the first time - and this really is something that should be done by someone who can "read" the horse's body language well.



You know, that’s a really good point about the program going downhill.  I think it is.  Lessons a year ago were more dynamic and the trainer seemed more engaged in general.  She has had a very eventful year, some good, some not.  I suppose it’s possible that she just got caught up in it all and let the lesson side of things slide. 🤷‍♀️

I think the horse is definitely protesting going out to work.  Every attack he’s leveled at me— the kicks, the bite, and the general nastiness— have occurred while I’m tacking him up or walking him out of the barn.  He’s also difficult to catch when he’s turned out (and not just for me but in general).  In lessons, he’s been protesting a bit, too.  Nothing serious, mostly just being slow to respond to cues, and since the trainer *is* present then, she’s been able to help me nip the behavior right away.  I definitely don’t think he enjoys giving lessons, although he’s also bad tempered in general, such as with the other horses when he’s turned out, so it’s not _just_ lessons.

At our most recent lesson, I asked the trainer for some ground lessons for me, and I was very pleasantly surprised by her response.  She took time to address all of my questions, went with me to the stall to see for herself, and helped me pick up on some cues the horse was sending me that I was totally missing.  And she had me walk the horse into and out of the stall in pretty much the way you described.  Fortunately, the barn was nearly empty; I agree about not wanting to do it with people and horses milling all about.  I’m still in the market for a new trainer, but I learned *a lot *in that little 15 min ground lesson.  I’m very thankful for it. I wish she had had that kind of response the first few times I complained! 



Mini Horses said:


> Which is why I do not have a riding animal at this time   I am a confident rider and like a spicy horse but, not wanting any accidents at this stage of my life.   PLUS I don't want to keep an animal if I don't feel I have the time to devote to the handling & care they need from me.   Already have these mini retiree pasture ornaments.





Ridgetop said:


> Is it possible to buy a couple of nice gentle horses and start trail riding with your children? You said you work with cattle - do you have somewhere to keep a couple horses?



Ah, buying horses of our own.  I’m really struggling with this!!

So first of all, yes, we _could_ buy some horses. We live on a lovely 20 acre property on which we already run a small, diversified farm. So space and facilities aren’t really an issue, nor is being “tied down” with a horse. We’re already tied down by cattle, goats, hogs, and more poultry than I can shake a stick at! 😆 Money isn’t exactly an issue, either. Not that I _want_ to spend a ton on horses— and my husband would certainly need some convincing!— but we’re already spending a pretty penny on lessons, and many of the more expensive aspects of horse ownership are not an issue for us.  We wouldn’t be boarding.  We already have good fences.  Our pastures are good.  We have a steady supply of organic hay cut from our own land.  (Though it might be better suited to cattle than horses— I still haven’t pegged down the finer points of what constitutes “horse hay.”)  And we’d have no problem saving a little on vet care by doing some vaccines, testing, and such ourselves since we’re already doing that for various other livestock.  We also have a truck & horse trailer (which so far has been used to haul pretty much everything _but_ horses).  If we had our own horses, I imagine we’d move to maybe 2 lessons a month plus practice on our own.  One of the frustrating things for me has been that with lessons and a lesson pony, I don’t really have the opportunity to head out and just _ride_. I’d like the opportunity to practice more often and under more varied conditions.  I’d like the freedom to just go out and hack.  I want that for the kids also.

On the other hand, time is an issue!  I do struggle with getting everything done as it is, and having horses would add to my responsibilities.  And of course, the money aspect can’t be completely overlooked.  Not only are horses generally expensive to purchase and maintain, but I don’t have a real use for them on our farm.  An expensive dairy cow already bred back?  No problem!  We can totally recoup that investment!  Another pig?  Bring on the bacon!  But a horse?  We just can’t *do* much with it!  That’s a hard sell for us!  I also feel like I still have a lot to learn about equines before going out and buying horses.

Bottom line... Riding a lesson pony once a week is never going to be the same as having our own horses, with which we can develop a bond and enjoy.  In addition, we have a pretty good setup already in place for equines.  *But* I have some serious reservations about buying horses at this time.  So I’m torn.  



Ridgetop said:


> I don't care how good a trainer she may be, when she persists in using a horse who is dangerous she has no business training. She knows the horse is dangerous - he has a history of deliberately kicking people, he has a history of biting people. That means he is dangerous. You are paying for riding lessons, she is not paying you to break her dangerous, nasty tempered horse.
> 
> Second, the tack should be in good, usable condition. Using tack where cinches snap, where the previously broken straps have not been repaired, and where the saddles and bridles are falling apart is another warning sign that this trainer should not be training students. The worn out and broken tack is another accident waiting to happen!  _No matter how much you like her, no matter how accomplished she may be, no matter how knowledgeable she is you need to DUMP HER AND GET ANOTHER TRAINER IMMEDIATELY.
> 
> ...



You’ve made some excellent points, and I thank you for them!  I think I addressed many of your comments above, but I’ll add that I am actively shopping for a new trainer & facility.  I’ve contacted four barns so far.  Two simply won’t work out, but there are two more that seem like possibilities.  I’m hoping to get some more answers to my questions— and I’m asking FAR better questions this time around than I was when I found the inital trainer!  Hopefully I can set up a time later this week to see these facilities in person.


----------



## Ridgetop (Dec 2, 2019)

So glad to read all you have posted.  You seem to have everything under control.  Best of luck with a new trainer.

If you have been taking lessons for well over a year, and you are not planning to show, why not look into leasing a couple of older horses and  just enjoy trail riding for a while.  You can always return to lessons.  Having a horse on the property instead of taking lessons might work out the same cost and be more fun for you.  

Many people don't want to sell their horses but find themselves not riding as much with jobs, or family pressures, or in the winter because the daylight hours are shorter.  Since you home school, you could ride during the day and arrange the lesson schedule around that.  Teenagers going off to college and don't want to sell them but the family might be interested in leasing them out.  We leased our older son's pony to a neighbor for a year when they needed a smaller pony for their son and our younger kids had not yet grown into him.  Later we did the same with our daughter's larger pony when she went off to college.  Same family, just down the road, good facilities on their property, and we knew how well they cared for their horses.  

Leasing is also popular with people that want to share expenses and will share riding time.  You provide the boarding facility, they share feed and vet costs.  If you can find a horse with some mustang in it, they can go barefoot - no costs other than trimming.  Horses don't have to cost a fortune unless you are putting them up in a boarding stable and/or showing them.  In fact, if you are buying a horse a lot of people that just want out from under the horse expense sell the tack along with the horse.  My kids hated cleaning tack so they started riding bareback.  Much better for the tack since they liked swimming their horses in the wash!  LOL When they wanted to learn show jumping their balance was so good they went from beginner to advanced in a couple weeks.  The trainer said she usually had her students ride bareback in the arena for several months to get their balance but since my kids had been riding bareback for years they already had that down pat. 

I can put you in touch with a rescue facility outside DFW that might let you keep some good riding animals for them. You can talk to them about that, or Bay can help you with getting something nice from the kill pens.  A lot of nice ponies end up there.  If your children are young, ponies that they can groom, tack and care for themselves are really nice.  Most ponies don't require shoes, only trims.  The only horses we ever shod here (and we are on dry, rocky ground, with steep mountain trails, were our Tennessee Walkers and  my old pinto mare when she god old because she didn't grow out enough and would stone bruise her soles.  I put a half shoe on her to protect her feet as long as I was taking her out on the trails.  

Just a thought - Our family had so much fun on ours over the years - DH's favorite thing was the whole family going out together on our horses, the youngest on a leading rein until we were on the trails and the baby up in front of his Daddy.  Some of the happiest times of our lives.  I sure hope you can have that experience with your kids too eventually.


----------



## promiseacres (Dec 2, 2019)

I think lessons are great. Having your own horses is definitely a step up. My kids and I are loving trail riding. But as they grow and if they want we'll consider more lessons. My daughter is my horse lover, she trained her mini to ride independently this year, now she wants to be a trainer. I grew up trail riding and riding in the backyard. Then rode all through college on a Ihsa team, finally learned what a lead was and how to cue it. Our horses didn't have great training even in this simple cue. But that's ok. I knew how to stick on.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 2, 2019)

Family camping and riding like @promiseacres and her family does is building memories her kids will treasure all their lives. Some parks have riding trails, check around. 

You are right, horses are a hole in your pocket that you dump money into. I’m at the point of having 2 retired old seniors, age 30 and 32 years old. They will live out their years until age and illness take them away. But somewhere along the way, riding someone else’s horse once a week just may not be enough. For me, it’s not just the riding, it’s the whole experience. It’s the care, the interaction, they are my friends. We have 2 younger horses as well. Yeah, I am afflicted. LOL


----------



## thistlebloom (Dec 2, 2019)

What Bay said. There is nothing,_ nothing_, that compares to having your horse on your property and available around the clock for companionship. You develop a bond and a relationship. And I second the comment she made about it not just being about the riding, they are there to listen to your joys and and your grief. There is something about leaning into a horses neck and shedding tears that can comfort as much as a good human friend.

I used to lay on my horse and read a good book, elbows propped on his rump. These days I love to sit in a chair and listen to them eat their hay while I have a cup of coffee.


----------



## High Desert Cowboy (Dec 4, 2019)

I have two other questions, especially for those who have either provided lessons/training or have taken lessons:

What condition do you expect the shared/lesson tack to be in?  One thing that has consistently bothered me about this barn is that much of the tack is simply a mess.  Rusted buckles, mismatched stirrup leathers, and extremely worn saddles are pretty much the norm.  I certainly wouldn’t expect the most beautiful gear to be used for lessons, but this stuff is pretty bad!  What bothers me most is that the other week, as I was tightening a saddle, the very worn and badly stretched billet strap simply snapped.  I couldn’t even use that saddle then because the third billet strap on that side had been previously broken and not replaced, yet the saddle had remained in use unrepaired.  Aesthetics aside, such badly worn tack is obviously dangerous.  (Granted, that particular saddle is worse than most.)  Surely the trainer/owner has a duty to ensure that the tack is serviceable and safe!?

Also, how would you all suggest that a trainer approaches/trains children?  What activities might a trainer incorporate into lessons to make them enjoyable for kids?  As an adult, I really appreciate that this trainer insists on excellent form while riding.  I have no problem at all being told, “That was sloppy.  Do it again.”  My children, however, are being bored to tears with lessons.  (The kids are ages 7 & 10.)  My son has taken to saying that he “hates horses” and that he never wants to ride again.  (However, he has said he would be willing to try with a new teacher.)  Even my horse-crazy daughter has become considerably less enthusiastic about them.  Certainly proper form is important, and working with horses isn’t always fun and games, but surely a trainer can find a way to incorporate some sort of fun into a lesson, at least occasionally?
[/QUOTE]
Sorry for the delayed response.  In regards to shared tack, I would say that it needs to be in perfect working order.  It doesn’t need to be pretty, but all your straps and buckles need to be in good condition free of tears, rust, or signs of weakening.  Is the under wool complete, with no thin spots from wear?.  Saddle pads adequate for the comfort of the animals?  My half Arab has wethers so high I have to put a specific  pad on him to keep the gullet from rubbing on the top of his wethers.  From the sounds of the equipment you’re seeing I’d even question if the saddle tree was ok!  When I did my own lessons it was always one on one so my life was easy I only needed a couple saddles.  I also worked for an outfit where we had 80+ saddles and 70+ horses and every piece of tack was in pristine working condition.  It had to work for the horse and the rider.  I watched a guy riding ranch broncs go for quite a ride when his latigo snapped because he hadn’t checked his personal equipment’s condition before hand.
Training kids can be difficult, because in all honesty it’s boring for them.  When I first tried with my son at 4 years old he would get bored after 10 minutes and want to be done.  He had a little motorcycle that could go fast and he loved that, the horse was just too slow. Now at 10 he is finally loving to ride and appreciates the opportunity regardless if we’re going fast or slow.  To keep them engaged at the beginning I’d recommend some sort of obstacle course that allows them to practice their horsemanship.  Pole bending and barrels are something that don’t have to be done at full speed, and it’s a change from the endless riding in a circle you normally get from lessons in an arena.  It gives them something to focus on as well, which makes a huge difference in developing horsemanship.  But you gotta walk before you can run.


----------



## Kotori (Dec 4, 2019)

Instead of lessons, have you considered leasing a horse? Not all places offer it, but if you can find one that might be better. pay $xx a month and get unlimited rides. full lease tends to be 5-6 days a week, half lease is ~3 days a week. probably cheaper than three lessons a week, and there would be not pressure on the kids. downside is that you would have to take turns.


----------



## LMK17 (Dec 9, 2019)

Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone!  When I initally posted, I knew what direction I wanted to go but was still struggling with it.  You all helped me hop down off the fence and get going.  

We’ve moved on with a new trainer as of last week.  To say it’s a better fit would be an understatement.  My son (very, very begrudgingly) gave it a try.  At the start of the lesson, he was scowling and literally told the trainer that he just wanted to get the lesson over with and go home.   I was *sure* she was going to pull me aside and tell me it just wouldn’t work out.   BUT she was fantastic with him, didn’t let his bad attitude get under her skin, and by the end of the lesson he was smiling and having a great time! Later in the car, he told me he was thrilled to have found the new barn and really, really wants to give riding another try!   My daughter and I really like the new place, too.

We’re going to try a couple months of lessons at this new place before seriously considering moving up to horses of our own.  (I think we have some gaps in our knowlege that I’d like to fill first.). I’m not sure when that time will come, but again, you’d all given me some food for thought.


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Dec 9, 2019)

Congrats, I think you made a good decision!


----------



## Baymule (Dec 9, 2019)

That makes me very, very happy for you and your kids. What better place to come for a good discussion than right here with your friends on BYH? I am delighted that y’all are in a better place and that things are going so well.


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 13, 2020)

I cannot believe our luck.  🤦‍♀️ 

First, the good.  We— and especially my son— have really hit it off with the new trainer.  She’s amazing.  Kiddo informed me the other day that if we had started with this trainer instead of the former one, he might never have come to hate horses.  His feelings toward them have DEFINITELY softened.  The trainer knows exactly the right approach to take with the kids.  And not only that, but all of our riding is improving.  We had some gaps in our knowlege that I wasn’t ever aware of, and she’s really helping us get back on track.  

Now the bad.  The new barn is closing at the end of the month.  😭  It was apparently a very spur of the moment decision.  Our trainer is an employee, and she states that she doesn’t know what precipitated the decision and that she found out the same day we did.  I pray that nothing tragic has befallen the owners, but otherwise, it just such a crappy thing.  They employ several people and have many boarders and clients.  I don’t know what plans are in place for the horses living there. The riding lesson people were offered the opportunity to finish out the month or switch to a new facility immediately.  I told our trainer to let us know if she goes to teach elsewhere, and we‘ll follow her.  No news yet.

But-  There may be a silver lining for us.  Maybe.  Our trainer asked me if we’d be interested in purchasing a couple lesson horses.  I talked it over with my husband, and he’s willing to consider it, depending on the horses offered and the price.  The trainer says she needs to talk it over with the owner.  At this point, I’m not even sure the owner is going to sell.  Plus, I’m still just ever so slightly on the fence about adding horses to our farm.  I’m picturing lots of dollar signs and extra work.  😏 

That said, any tips or advice from you all on purchasing a horse?


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 13, 2020)

Some trainers come to you, definitely ask if that could be part of the sale.


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 13, 2020)

Since these aren't the trainer's horses, I don't see how that could be worked into any sale. However, I'm determined to stick with this trainer if at all possible. I'll follow her to another facility, or if that's not an option and she's open to it, I'll trailer horses to her (if we end up with any).


----------



## Baymule (Jan 13, 2020)

If they are lesson horses, then you know they are well trained.


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 13, 2020)

Yes, and that's THE reason I'm considering the purchase. We've only been with this barn for a bit over a month, and we've met & ridden 4 of their lesson horses. All 4 have been wonderfully well mannered. I don't have safety concerns about any of their lesson animals. I think any of them would make fine beginner horses for us.

One big concern, though, is what we'd have to pay for such well trained animals.


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 13, 2020)

When you get into horses you will realize that the purchase price may be the least of your expenses. Whether you pay a little or pay a lot. It's the only one time cost involved.
The cheapest horse I have ever purchased is a $25 dollar mare that has cost me thousands in extra fencing, more tack, added farrier costs, routine vet care, more in my annual hay purchase, etc. But it was all voluntary and I'd do it again. She's a last chancer BLM mustang that had run out of options. I love her to bits. Also it was a gamble.

You'll want to have a vet check of course. If the vet happens to be familiar with these particular horses I would ask for their opinion of their behavior and health history. Same with the farrier.

Congratulations on finding an excellent trainer. I agree with Promises' comment on the trainer coming to you. I don't remember how many kids you have taking lessons, but if you are doing three or four lessons I think many trainers would consider it.

Sounds like you have some exciting decisions to make!


----------



## Baymule (Jan 13, 2020)

LMK17 said:


> One big concern, though, is what we'd have to pay for such well trained animals.


Why not ask?


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 13, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> When you get into horses you will realize that the purchase price may be the least of your expenses. Whether you pay a little or pay a lot. It's the only one time cost involved.
> 
> You'll want to have a vet check of course. If the vet happens to be familiar with these particular horses I would ask for their opinion of their behavior and health history. Same with the farrier.
> 
> ...



True about all the additional costs you mentioned.  Still, I think the purchase price will be a considerable hurdle.  We have a pretty decent set up already.  It’s not fancy, but we’ve got good fences, a small barn, and decent pastures.  The barn could stand to be cleaned out a bit so that I can annex more space (right now it’s part animal housing and part storage), and I might consider adding an additional hotwire at the top of our fences, but I anticipate that getting our facilities ready for horses would be more a time investment than a monetary one.  Also, most years we cut more hay than our cattle can eat through in a winter.  (Last year we donated several excess bales to a horse rescue, lest they just rot in storage.)  I definitely realize we’re going to be spending money to maintain any horses who live here, but barring a surprise vet bill or something, I’m thinking it’s going to be on the order of hundreds of dollars spread out over months compared to the thousands I’m expecting to pay in a lump sum to purchase a critter. I guess time will tell.

I was planning to use our vet for any pre-purchase exams.  And to get copies of previous vet records for the animals that I can peruse myself + bring to our vet.  Because we already have livestock, we have a vet that I’m quite fond of and whose opinion I’ve come to trust.

We have 3 people taking lessons.  It might be worth a trainer’s time, I suppose, to come to us.  However, we don’t have an arena nor jumps set up.  Is it worthwhile to travel to where we’d have those available?  We could set something up here, but our pastures are mainly for the cattle.  We *might* have an area where we could build a small riding ring/arena, but I’d have to think on that a bit.

And yes, big decisions!  😁  Not really the timing I was thinking of, and losing the barn that we like so well really stinks, but it could be a good opportunity for us.  



Baymule said:


> Why not ask?



I intend to!  I only know the barn owner in passing.  It’s our trainer that I‘m far more friendly with.  The trainer was the one who approached me about possibly purchasing some horses, and she says she’ll speak to the owner about it.  That was just a few days ago.  I’m waiting for the trainer to talk to the owner and then to get back to me about possibilities.  Naturally, I’ll negotiate with the owner directly if it comes to that, but I’m just sitting tight in the meanwhile.  I’m sure they all have PLENTY to think about and work out at the moment, and I’m in no real hurry.  🙂


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 13, 2020)

It sounds like you have a really good handle on the situation. Growing your own hay is wonderful! Being so experienced with livestock gives you a real advantage also. 
If you've been doing arena work and jumps it would probably be easier to just haul in to a training barn, and then eventually get yourself something set up at home for practicing. 
I will tell you that you will love having your horses in your own backyard where you can go out and hang with them anytime you want. I'm excited for you!


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 13, 2020)

Thanks!  I’m excited, too!  But I’m also fairly content with the current set up at our place.  I’m just telling myself that if it’s meant to be, we’ll get a couple of these guys.  If it’s not, well, there will always other horses for sale if and when the time is right.  😊

And yes!  Having our own hay is amazing!  The previous owners of our place, I think, had planned to get rich selling organic, grass fed beef, and they really invested a lot in the pastures and infrastructure.  I don’t think their finances panned out quite the way they had hoped, but we were really blessed to get this place.  The timing and everything just came together perfectly, and since our aim is more family self-sufficiency than profit, this place suits us perfectly.  We keep a low stocking density— really about half of what we could run— which allows us to let half the pasture rest most of the spring so that we can get a single hay cutting in the summer and still have plenty of grass for the animals + to go to seed and sustain the pastures.  It’s a beautiful thing.  😍  We got 20 big round bales this past year.  Our winter is basically half over, and we still have 14 bales left.👍


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 13, 2020)

You're right about there always being horses out there available. You have time to be particular.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 14, 2020)

My name is Baymule and I am addicted to horses. I have 4, two are retired at 30 and 32 years of age. The other two came out of slaughter pens. They were a gamble, but I took the risk with my husbands full cooperation and blessing. Riding feeds my soul, renews my spirit and gives me a freedom that I could never experience otherwise. I fondly call them a hole in my pocket that I dump money in. LOL I adore them.


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 17, 2020)

Talked to the owner and our trainer today, and we have 2 good candidates to potentially bring over here.   🙂 

One is a gelding, 20 yrs old.  Has seen it all and done it all.  Showed, worked cattle, gives lessons.  Extremely kid-safe.  Both kids and I have ridden him in lessons.  Older but definitely not done.  He does need grain to keep in condition but healthy and sound.  $700.  The other is a gelding pony, 8 yrs old.  Not recommended for the kids, but they’d be able to grow into him.  He’s safe but a bit stubborn.  My 7 year old helped groom him and got to love on him a bit, and he was polite with her.  I hadn’t ridden him before today.  He challenged me as a rider, as I had to be pretty “on” with my cues, but he was fun to ride!  (And I kind of like the idea of not having to share “my” pony with the kids.  )  Healthy, barefoot.  $2000.  I asked for vet records on them, and the owner wants to see our place before any agreements, but it seems like we’re moving in a good direction.

I do think I’d like to purchase insurance policies on them if we buy them.  What sort of policy would you all recommend for a couple of family pleasure horses?  

Also, I’m curious what you all think of barbed wire for a horse pasture.  It seems like an extremely polarizing subject among horse people!  We have 20 acres fenced in a mix of field fence and barbed wire.  All of it is lined with 2 strands of electric.  We use electrified poly rope to construct crossfences.  I do want to make an effort to keep any horses away from the barbed strands, and I have some ideas how to do that.  On the other hand, though, lots of people around here have horses behind barbed wire.  Just curious where you all stand. 

Anything else you all think I should consider?


----------



## Baymule (Jan 17, 2020)

I never bought an insurance policy on a horse, so no help to you there.

I've had horses in barb wire. They managed to find ways to cut themselves, hurt themselves on other things they found besides the wire. One time my mare came limping up with a big upholstery tack in her foot! Where did THAT come from????? Horror stories abound about barbed wire, I've used it practically all my life. I would use it again and I use it now. 

Once we used field fence and the horses pawed it, tore it up and didn't hurt themselves on the wire. The field fence was crap-big mistake. 

We have this place fenced in 2"x4"x48" non climb horse wire with barbed wire at the top. I want the barbed wire at the top to keep them off the fence. 

If you have hot wire, that should keep the horses away from the fence. Add the poly wire if it gives you peace of mind.


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 20, 2020)

Those prices sound reasonable to me, and what I would expect in my area for horses like those. Have you made a decision yet?

I think your fencing situation sounds fine. As to insurance, I have never insured a horse either.


----------



## promiseacres (Jan 20, 2020)

Horses sound like good options. Be aware the pony may behave better for the kids than for an adult, you may lose him sooner than you think. My haflinger Richie is like that.   
Fence sounds fine. You may want a dry lot area for the pony for times when the grass is fast growing, spring in particular as ponies can founder on grass. 
As for insurance, what is your goal? To cover medical emergency or liability. We have a farm/livestock liability policy if our horses escape and damage someone's property. But I think a horse related emergency savings account would be better than mortality or colic insurance that has stipulations, especially for "pleasure" horses.


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 23, 2020)

thistlebloom said:


> Those prices sound reasonable to me, and what I would expect in my area for horses like those. Have you made a decision yet?



We have!  We’ll bring the horses home after our final lesson before the barn closes on the 31!   😍 I‘d normally insist on a pre-purchase exam. As it is, I have a vet appt for them for a few days after we bring them home. I’ve asked the seller to agree to take them back if the vet finds anything serious, but as we’ve ridden them multiple times, they’re still working as lesson horses, and we have seen them over several weeks (and trust the owner), I have no real concerns. I’m very hopeful that we’ll be able to continue learning with our current instructor + these horses, and the owner has also volunteered to help with any questions I might have going forward. All in all, I think it’s just about the best possible way to get started with horses of our own— They’re good, steady lesson horses, and we have the seller + trainer for ongoing support. Crazy to think that two months ago we were looking for a new barn and definitely did not have plans to purchases horses of our own, and now here we are. 🤷‍♀️  How’s that for timing!  🤣



promiseacres said:


> As for insurance, what is your goal? To cover medical emergency or liability. We have a farm/livestock liability policy if our horses escape and damage someone's property. But I think a horse related emergency savings account would be better than mortality or colic insurance that has stipulations, especially for "pleasure" horses.



My goal was to cover medical emergencies.  Looking into it, I’m not sure I could get any kind of insurance on the older guy, and I agree that probably just saving for emergencies is the better way to go.    Thanks!


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 23, 2020)

Yay! We'll be looking forward to pictures of your horses when you get them home!


----------



## Baymule (Jan 23, 2020)

I am happy for you! Look at how it all worked out.


----------



## LMK17 (Jan 25, 2020)

Here's my "horse hating" boy with one of our horses-to-be. ♥️


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 25, 2020)

Oh he's doomed! 😄


----------



## Baymule (Jan 26, 2020)

It is a life long addiction. Ask me how I know!


----------



## thistlebloom (Jan 26, 2020)

Yep. If your boy gets the "bug" there's no vaccine, lol.


----------

