# NEWBIE Bringing sheep home. Lots of questions!



## Shepherd wannabe (May 31, 2013)

I am finally going to bring a few sheep home for weed/grass control and to give my sheep herding dogs a job to do when they are not at their herding lessons....

We have several acres that we plan to divide into 3 different areas for them to graze. We are hoping to pen them at night and let them out to pasture during the day to give our shepherds a real job to do.  Right now we go to weekly lessons and recently they have gotten VERY good at putting my chickens up when asked. We are thinking 3-4 sheep. And I have SO much to learn. 

Originally I wanted wool sheep and found some (two wethers and two ewes) that were very tame and used to being handled and haltered, but NEVER worked on dogs. They look quite healthy and well cared for. The other option was our herding training facility that has dog broke hair sheep, not handled, but they are on a large single pasture, overcrowded and I suspect they have never had hooves trimmed and probably have a huge parasite load.

We are leaning toward our training facility since it is so close and we don't want to totally freak out sheep that are not used to dogs. My property has been seeded in a sheep blend, and has not had any livestock on it for a hundred years. 

HERE are my questions: What do I worm them with? Is there a natural way to do this? Does garlic and DE work? If I use conventional chemical wormers and my chickens go through it, will it kill them??? Can I just contain them with the chickens for a bit, use DE and Garlic and Apple Cider Vinegar and then put them out to a clean pasture???

ALSO I forgot to ask (edit) If they go from a pasture with little to no graze to a pasture with grass and clover and dock etc. will it make them sick? Do I need to limit their time at first? 

THANK YOU so much for your help!


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## elevan (May 31, 2013)

I don't have sheep but I wanted to welcome you to BYH!


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## Ruus (May 31, 2013)

I know nothing about sheepdogs, I've always moved sheep without them, so I can't say which group would be better for your purposes. I personally would go for the healthier sheep, but like I said, I don't know how much of a hassle it would be to train them to be herded by dogs.

About the pasture, I would definitely limit their time on clover at first, especially if they're coming from a sparse/overgrazed pasture. Bloat is nasty, you don't want it.


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks for the welcome and the advice. 

How long do you think that i would need to be careful? I am thinking of setting up a 10x10 holding pen (it is a doc bob kennel from TSC) for them that they can graze down, then I would move it every few days? week?  When they needed fresh grass. How long do you think it would take before I could let them out on a regular, rather weedy pasture?  Is hay going to cause the same problems with bloat?

Some sheep are rather easy going about dogs, but some bolt into the fence at the first sight of them. 

Sorry for all of the questions. All of my searches turn up conflicting results.


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## secuono (Jun 1, 2013)

I use a 10ft half inch cpvc pipe with a flag on the end to move sheep. Got to train and feed a dog...

You can move the pen when you see the grass eaten down. Move it half over new grass each time and that'd be safer than a full section of new grass. I've heard people feeding hay before moving horses and sheep onto pasture to help fill them up so they get less grass in them.

I'd go with the healthy sheep, just because they haven't seen or been worked with a dog, doesn't mean they will go bat shyt crazy. 
If the dogs are properly trained, you should be able to keep the dog at a large distance. Pen the sheep and leash walk the dog real far, keep walking closer until the sheep start to notice and get iffy. That's your starting distance when using the dog to move them. 

My sheep hadn't seen a dog before I got them, they didn't mind my dog until he lowered his head or started running at them.


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## tiana29 (Jun 7, 2013)

Last year I got 5 American Blackbelly's to breed and use for training my two herding dogs. I got them from the facility that I was training at on a weekly basis. Even though ABB's tend to be flightier they are nothing compared to sheep that have never been worked by a dog. If you have a very well trained dog that you could use to dog break the wool sheep with then that would be one thing but if you are like I was with myself being a novice with two novice dogs I don't recommend the non-dog broke sheep.
As for the pasture I think I would introduce them slowly to it. Meaning letting them graze for 20 - 30 mins. the first day and then putting them back in the small pen. Slowly increasing there time on pasture over a few weeks. 
Hair sheep tend to be able to handle higher worm loads (which is one reason why I chose them) so I wormed my with ivermectin when I first got them just so I knew what I was starting with and then 4 times a year I drench them with ACV/Garlic Barrier/DE mixture and so far I have not needed to use the ivermectin again. The ivermectin wont hurt your chickens. Also, consider there condition. Do they look wormy? Sunken in stomachs, pale eye lids? And find out what the trainer worming/vaccination schedule is.
Hope this helps.


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 7, 2013)

Thank you, Tiana29! you have answered all of my questions. 

My dogs are not yet well trained... Not biting, but really pushy. We talked to my instructor and she doesn't know what worm schedule the owners have (if any) so I had planned to go with one worming and the ACV/ Garlic/ DE method, too. Do you mind putting up your recipe?  Glad that my chicken girls can help with the clean up. 

The sheep do not look run down, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what they are eating. My instructor may even let us have the old steady whether that is a practical anchor. She worries about his age but honestly, if I can get a good year out of him (settling the flock) and give him a bit of a retirement, I will be happy.  He has gotten so heavy that many of the shier dogs can't move him...  That will be balanced by a 2 yr old wether and a couple of lighter ewes... We worked some yesterday and the yearllng ewe was like popcorn! She would not flock, got herself stick in all kinds of fencing, and would bound and leap through the air. I can only imagine 4 of those racing through my neighborhood streets... 


I am SOOO Excited!!!!


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 7, 2013)

I train and trial my border collies.  Other breeds are usually considered upright breeds and work in a different manner.
Sheep are not easy to dog break unless you have a trained dog. But can be if you have to.
You can keep your dogs on a long rope to keep them out of trouble while your sheep are getting used to them. bottle babies and sheep that are human friendly can be harder to train as they keep hanging out at your knees and it's hard for a untrained or green dog to get them off  you. Sometimes a dog has to do a little biting especially if they are bottle babies to convince the sheep the dog is to be respected.

I find if I feed hay before turning my sheep out on a green pasture I can avoid most bloat.

Frothy legume bloat comes from clover and other plants rich in nitrogen.  Grows sheep fast but will also cause bloat if consumed quickly. So if you fill the bellies of your sheep before turning them out to eat the pasture they won't be in such a hungry hurry.

Sheep usually eat in the early am, rest in the afternoon and then back to eat in the early evening or late afternoon depending on the heat.  So feed them hay in the am, let them out a while, bring them in to rest. Feed more hay then let them out in the evening for a while and they will quickly get used to eating pastures.

Sheep kept off pasture over night tend to over graze when let out because they are hungry from not eating all night. That's when the bloat can become an issue. Your sheep will quickly become accustomed to green.  My sheep come in with very full bellies (if they come in at all) they look like then have a small basketball in their bellies. If the basket ball is all on one side you usually have bloat but not a true emergency unless they look like they can't get around or get up.  it usually goes back down with chewing their cud.

I have read on here quite a lot about baking soda being offered free choice to help with bloat. I don't have the issue here so I don't do that but sounds very interesting and I think it could work wonderfully.

If you haven't used a well trained herding dog to do your sheep shifting or moving, you don't know what you are missing.  I have 15++ acres,  quite a hill with lots of hiding places. If it weren't for the dogs, I'd be hiking all over all the time looking for my sheep.  My fencing isn't all that great. It's not a big deal since I have good dogs to help.

Can you ask  your sheep herding trainer to come over and dog break your sheep. If you have American black bellies or Barbados...good luck! 

I worm using Prohibit.  I think organic and natural ways of worming can help but if you have a large worm load I surely think you need a good wormer.  But this is extremely controversial and just my opinion.  My least favorite is Ivermec as I think most parasites are immune to it. You herding trainer can tell what they use and if you ask, maybe you can assist in helping her worm and do other sheep maintenance and learn while you help.
I often let people help me in lieu of paying me to help them train their dogs.

If I read right you are located in KY. There is a huge herding group in KY. Lots of help with your dogs and dog breaking you sheep.  Look up OVSDA (ohio valley stockdog association) and Virginia Border Collie association.

If you don't have border collies do a AKC herding club search and you should find some herding clubs in your area that can help you.


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 7, 2013)

Thank you, Kristen. 

I am in NC. These are hair sheep from my training place. My dogs are Dutch Shepherds, so upright in nature. I think that having sheep around everyday will take the edge off of seeing them at trials or at lessons. 
it certainly has helped having chickens. They can now ignore them and put them up when asked... 

i had not heard of Prohibit. I will look into it. I would love to knock back the worm numbers before I bring them to my brand new pastures. I will offer them hay before letting them out and at night, thank you! I was planing on offering baking soda just in case. 

I hope to trial  but my girl goes squirrelly when she goes to a new place. Hopefully someday!


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## tiana29 (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm glad I was able to help. I know your pain. I grew up in the city and now have a small little farm so everything is still on the learning curve. I have an Australian Kelpie and a Aussie/BC cross. My kelpie is my go too dog but can be very pushy and one day when I was trying to move the sheep he pushed them past me and they decided to take off down our driveway, down our dirt lane out onto the main road and finally found an alley (that I had never know was there before this point) and finally came to a rest in a horse pasture. It took me about 45 mins. to get them back to my yard and I was absolutely frazzled when all was said and done. My trainer laughed at my story and said she lost her sheep too as a newbie. So my recommendation is be prepared. It seems everyone has a horror story.  
My drenching recipe is 5cc Garlic Barrier/ 10cc ACV/ 10cc Water/ And enough DE to thicken it slightly but not too much that it's no longer liquid.
I have one bottle baby ABB and she tends to split from the others but isn't un-movealbe by any means. Mine were really flightly for about 3 - 4 weeks before they settle in to the fact that this was home and I was the one to feed them. I gave mine a week and a half before I worked my dogs on them. It's such a change for them that I just didn't feel it was fair to work them right away even though it killed me and my dogs.
What kind of hair sheep will you be getting and how soon?


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 8, 2013)

any updates on how your sheep and sheepdogs are doing together?

i ready your threat with quite some interest as I am in the same boat. We got sheep very recently to help clear the property and possibly as a job for my Briard. A Briard again works differently as they were used as boundary dogs. They would be considered a live fence. 

Our sheep were used to dogs, but not to a herding dog. Right now we only take Felix (our dog) in every few days on a long lead, but he "visits" them every time he goes outside. The sheep still have lots of respect for my big black dog, but keeping Felix at big enough of a distance to keep the sheep from running is work.
Once the sheep are used to him more, i think it'll be easier!


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 8, 2013)

Thanks guys. I have been setting up the stall (10x10 covered pen) today. These are hair sheep but i am not sure of the breed. We decided to go with a portable Sheep panel paddock that will lead off of the stall until we are confident moving them with the wild child and her calmer, but equally imposing little brother. 

With any luck, we will be getting them this week.   they are having a big clinic this weekend , though, so they may want to keep their old boy for one more weekend. 

My kids think that I am insane..... I am in town, after all. Luckily our town ordinances allow for animals and bees (except cows and pigs).  SOMEDAY when i get a real farm I hope to run Clun forest sheep. Beautiful, wool, great parents and great milk and meat... but until them I can dream and pretend and move sheep around the yard. 

Thank you for all the advice and the worming recipe!   

Oh!I was wondering how your new sheep were doing with weed and brush removal???

How do you post pictures??? Would love to put some up of my crew.


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 8, 2013)

tiana29 said:
			
		

> I'm glad I was able to help. I know your pain. I grew up in the city and now have a small little farm so everything is still on the learning curve. I have an Australian Kelpie and a Aussie/BC cross. My kelpie is my go too dog but can be very pushy and one day when I was trying to move the sheep he pushed them past me and they decided to take off down our driveway, down our dirt lane out onto the main road and finally found an alley (that I had never know was there before this point) and finally came to a rest in a horse pasture. It took me about 45 mins. to get them back to my yard and I was absolutely frazzled when all was said and done. My trainer laughed at my story and said she lost her sheep too as a newbie. So my recommendation is be prepared. It seems everyone has a horror story.


HaHaHa. I hope that I am the exception to the rule.... BUT I am sure that you were able to laugh about it afterwards, right?   Someday i will take the time to tell my TERRIBLE trial story... good grief. As one of the spectators said "dogs have a knack of totally mortifying you, don't they? " 

Seems that they do!


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 8, 2013)

You are not considered a true shepherd till you fall flat on your face in the middle of the sheep while your dog pushes sheep over the top of you! Or at least that's what someone told me as I picked myself and my dignity off the ground in the middle of a STD.  
I choose to believe it and have been a Real shepherd ever since!


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 8, 2013)

Shepherd wannabe said:
			
		

> tiana29 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 8, 2013)

Shepherd wannabe said:
			
		

> Oh!I was wondering how your new sheep were doing with weed and brush removal???
> 
> .


before (this is not the same fenced in area, but you get the idea..)

http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Irisimus/media/IMG_1852.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

after
http://s25.photobucket.com/user/Irisimus/media/IMG_1851.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

This is done by 4 Kathadin ewes and 1 kathadin x Dorper lamb 

(hopefully those pictures come through, doing this the first time


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 9, 2013)

Shoot. I just see little question mark boxes... But I am guessing it went well if you can show before and afters!


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 9, 2013)

Weird.. I changed it to the link... not sure why it didn't work in the first place!


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## Shepherd wannabe (Jun 9, 2013)

WOW! how long did that take them??? That looks great. I have lots of ivy and Vinca major. I understand that vinca is not good for eating, so i may need to mow it and plant sheep pasture blend in the fall. 
But other than that, I think that they could do such a nice job cleaning up AND my neighbors won't have to hear lawn equipment all weekend~ 

Lauren


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 9, 2013)

I would say it took them less then 2 weeks (daytime only) to strip everything. First they picked off all their favourites, then seconds, then thirds, etc.. they also have free choice hay 24/7, and some grains whenever we go to pet them. If I am bringing in my dog, I better be their best friend in between 

Somewhere I heard that they bring in large flocks of sheep high up into the BC Rockies. They stay all summer long with their shepherd and LDG to clear brush up there. The environment is simple to fragile to bring in large machinery. What a job!!


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## rosiefarmgirl (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi all
I'm completely new to all this so even the basics confuse me! 

I worked out ACV was apple cider vinegar  but can't decode DE...any clues??!!

Also, I'm in Australia and can't find Garlic Barrier here so I'm wondering if there's a recipe to make a home made version as I love the idea of not using chemicals if we don't need to.

Thanks!


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## woodsie (Aug 26, 2013)

DE is diatomaceous earth. I believe it is made of a volcanic rock and super sharp to bugs, both internal and external pests. Usually it is easy to find at farms stores.


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## bubba1358 (Aug 26, 2013)

woodsie said:
			
		

> DE is diatomaceous earth. I believe it is made of a volcanic rock and super sharp to bugs, both internal and external pests. Usually it is easy to find at farms stores.


It's technically ground up shells of diatoms, which are extremely small water-based organisms. When they die, their shells sink, creating a "beach" surface on the sea floor. In certain places, the landscape has changed and the water drained, leaving huge deposits. DE is these shells, ground up into a fine powder. It is 90% air (full of holes), and acts as a potent desiccant, absorbing liquids. The extremely sharp edges pierce insect exoskeletons and larvae (including intestinal worms), causing death in a matter of hours or a few days. The negative effect on large mammal digestive tracts is minimal, if it exists at all. But reports of increased nutrient absorption and generally improved overall health whilst on DE abound.

I use it all the time - mixed in with minerals, on the door jam to keep out crawling bugs, on top of hay i store in my shed, once in my whole house to rid myself of fleas (it worked!), on maggots that had infested a mushroom outside the back door, etc. Today, in fact, I dusted about a cup onto a hornets nest that was on a ladder I needed to use. I got the hornets and the nest. The DE stuck to them, and the hornets scattered. They flew in all kinds of directions, eventually spiraling to the ground within about 5 minutes. They all abandoned the nest, and I was able to safely get the ladder and finish my chores.


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