# Iron



## arabianequine (Jul 10, 2011)

Is red cell the only thing you can get over the counter? I got iron supplement from the vet not long ago and gave to my does after being her only 2 weeks they got really sick and white gums and eyelids. When I took pics and wormed my does last night, the 2 boers looked pretty pale again. 


I wonder if the what the vet gave me was any different then red cell. I think I am gonna ask them tomorrow.


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## elevan (Jul 11, 2011)

I know that there is an injectible iron but I don't know if it's rx or not...I've never had to use it.  

I've used Red Cell plenty...for horses, goats, calf and dogs...I really like it.  I use it at 6ml/ 20-30# no matter what critter I'm dosing it to.


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## Roll farms (Jul 11, 2011)

Most farm stores carry injectable iron (for pigs).


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 11, 2011)

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/anemiaingoats.html


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## Goatmasta (Jul 11, 2011)

You have a worm load.  What are you using for a wormer and @ what dosage?


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## arabianequine (Jul 11, 2011)

I just wormed them on the 9th this last sat. with safe guard horse paste at x3 on the dose. 

They were wormed two times on May 4th and May 2st at with Ivermectin horse paste at x2 the dose.

They had Iron supplement before too around the mid. of May for 4-5 days. 

I got some more from the vet today. It is called lixotinic. tsp per 25lbs. so I will give them this for 7 days and recheck their gums/eyelids again.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 11, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> I just wormed them on the 9th this last sat. with safe guard horse paste at x3 on the dose.
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> They were wormed two times on May 4th and May 2st at with Ivermectin horse paste at x2 the dose.
> 
> ...


As far as I am concerned safeguard is ineffective.   When using the ivermec horse paste you should dose it @ 3x at minimum.  I would be dosing it @ 4x if they were here. However, if it were me I would get the ivermec cattle pour on and dose @ 1cc/22lbs(orally).  I would also dose them with Valbazen at the same time as the ivermec at least for the next month.  Valbazen will kill tapeworms which ivermec will not kill.   The issue I have with the horse paste is that it just is not as consistent of a delivery method as the pour on or injectable ivermec.  With most dewormers you would rather overdose than under dose.  Wide spread under dosing is why safe guard is no longer effective.

  The cause of the anemia(worms) needs to be taken care of ASAP.  this is not something to mess around with.


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## arabianequine (Jul 11, 2011)

I am pretty sure all my girls are pregnant. I know valbazen should not be given while pregnant. Since they had the ivermectin paste last time. I went with the safe guard paste this time. One that seems pale now had the ivermec injectable on May 21st not orally though, it was injected. It might just be that there gum color is not the pinkest or as pink as my toggs. These are boer doe goats. 


I do plan on getting the ivermax very soon.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 11, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure all my girls are pregnant. I know valbazen should not be given while pregnant. Since they had the ivermectin paste last time. I went with the safe guard paste this time. One that seems pale now had the ivermec injectable on May 21st not orally though, it was injected. It might just be that there gum color is not the pinkest or as pink as my toggs. These are boer doe goats.
> 
> 
> I do plan on getting the ivermax very soon.


You are correct about the valbazen.  Didn't know they were preggers.  The issue here is dosage.  If you under dose you will have resistance.  You need to use a correct dose to kill the worms.  The injectable and pour on ivermec should be dosed @ 1cc/22lbs orally.  If you choose to inject the injectable(which I don't recommend but some people do) it is the same dosage.  The idea is to deliver around 500-800 mcg/kg of body weight.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 12, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> arabianequine said:
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I agree!! The issue is the dosage.  I would use ivermec orally...its much more effective!  It taste terrible for them so make sure you get it far back in their mouths as you can when dosing orally so they dont spit it out.  Learned that one from expirence!!  lol! 

Good luck..its important you get this worm load under control soon...they sound in rough shape.  ;(


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 12, 2011)

how old are these girls? What about coccidia??  That can run them down and cause anemia as well.  


Those wormers you are using aren't the strongest available to fight a barber pole worm load. We would use something stronger on our goats if they were anemic, cydectin or valbazene. 


Anemia can take a very long time to recover from.  It is an ugly circle, with the goat weakened by the anemia constantly getting a heavy worm load and the worms causing a worsened state of anemia.  

plenty of loose goat minerals may help, since copper is very important for the goat to beable to fight a worm load.  copper bolusing may help, but is a pain to do. I know it helped some of ours. 

Goats just aren't meant to be grazing off the ground. Getting the onse that are staying anemic off of pasture and just on hay or hay and grain can help, since they will be exposed to less parasites and it will give their bodies time to recover from the anemia. 

Feeds high in protien help build red blood cells.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jul 12, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> how old are these girls? What about coccidia??  That can run them down and cause anemia as well.
> 
> 
> Those wormers you are using aren't the strongest available to fight a barber pole worm load. We would use something stronger on our goats if they were anemic, cydectin or valbazene.


PS:  20kids...they are pregnant...so it changes things a bit for them.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 12, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> 20kidsonhill said:
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I should clarify, I was being lazy. We don't use valbazene on pregnant goats, we do use cydectin if they are pregnant and anemic. Doing a lot of worming on them the first couple months of pregnancy is not ideal,  but being anemic isn't ideal either.


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## arabianequine (Jul 12, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Goatmasta said:
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Way better then the way I got them. 

I just noticed the other day when handling them. I usually check everything out then and that their gums were not as bright pink as the toggs. Actually I think they are getting pale again. I thought I had them pinker then that before but not as pink as the toggs then either. 

I just got these does on May 1st and they went through a sick spell after 2 weeks of being here. 

The 2 boers I have are 3 and 2. 

The bigger boer which is 3 had not had the neomycin but the smaller 2 year old one did....when went through the sick spell. The older boer never got sick. Just the togg and the 2 year old boer. That was about mid May. 

I am pretty positive they are all pregnant. If they were pregnant when they came, I had to assume they had had nothing especially being in poor shape. That is why I gave them some wormer then and then I was told to redo it in 2 weeks by a local goat owner here. Then they got sick the day it was due so I did not do it again till about a week after when it was due on the togg and the older boer. I was wanting to get them over being sick...and not be throwing all kinds of stuff at them. The younger boer had while sick about 2-3 days into being sick ivermectin injectable and it was injected and that was on May 21st. 

I will be ordering some IverMax pour on here real soon maybe today if I can get the answers I want from the manufacture. 

I have iron and going to give that in the mean time. 

I did give the safe guard the other day at 3x their weight dose. To try and get rid of different worms if they had them.


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## arabianequine (Jul 12, 2011)

I do plan on ordering the drench tube and di-methox 40% also.


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## arabianequine (Jul 13, 2011)

I did have the iron supplement....I am not very happy!


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

This is what my vet gave me and pretty spendy....and expensive from the vet too. 

http://www.drugs.com/vet/lixotinic.html

Red cell seems better anyways and a lot cheaper. I can get this at my local feed store too. 

http://www.kyhorse.com/store/supplements/general/redcell.htm

What do you think about giving either to goats and how much for, for how long etc? Neither say goats can have it 

Red cell seems like it has more vit. in it in mg and more vit. then the other above.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 14, 2011)

Red cell: I have read any where from 6cc per 100 lbs to 6cc per 40lbs. I would say if you are going to give it everyday and the goat has not had a lot of other mineral supplements, like loose minerals, then give the higher dosage. I have given as much as 30cc to a 120lb goat at one time, but more as a one time deal and not every day for a week. 

I beleive the recommendation is one time every day for a week then once a week, until the animal is less anemic looking. I have been happy with the product.

ON a severly anemic doe, we used red cell and iron injections, and she is doing a lot better. The injectable iron 100 is fairly inexpensive and it is given at the rate of 4cc per 100lbs, but you can't give to animal meant for slaughter, since it leaves staining int he meat.  IT doesn't give an exact withdrawal, but I was going by atleast 6 months. 


don't forgot good protein in the diet is the key to making red blood cells. 


Anemia and worm loads is a nasty circle. Anemia weakening the animals system, allowing the worms to flurish and the worms causing more anemia.


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

Does anyone know if the two links above are pretty much the same product? I really don't care about the fancy glass bottle. I prefer not to pay the high price either or the vets high price.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 14, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if the two links above are pretty much the same product? I really don't care about the fancy glass bottle. I prefer not to pay the high price either or the vets high price.


this is the label for red cell: http://valleyvet.naccvp.com/index.php?m=product_view_basic&u=country&p=msds&id=1500004

they don't have the same kind of iron in them.


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if the two links above are pretty much the same product? I really don't care about the fancy glass bottle. I prefer not to pay the high price either or the vets high price.


They really are not the same thing...

Red Cell will get you past most anemia but for the really bad cases I would do an injection of iron.

I dose Red Cell at 6 ml / 20-30# every 6-8 hours for 24 hours (sometimes 48 hrs) and re-evaluate in 5-7 days.


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

So are you saying that the red cell is better for the price or just better period for anemic issues?

I am headed to town so I will pick some up.


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## elevan (Jul 14, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> So are you saying that the red cell is better for the price or just better period for anemic issues?
> 
> I am headed to town so I will pick some up.


Let's put it this way...I keep Red Cell on hand but don't keep the injectible iron.  I won't say one is better than the other cause I'm sure that will cause a debate that's not needed here.


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

I mean the red cell better then the lixotinic.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 14, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> I mean the red cell better then the lixotinic.


I would think it would matter if the kind of iron in the loxotinic is more available/ more easily absorbed than the kind of chelated iron in the red cell?  I don't know the answer to that.  


Red cell does work very well.


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## arabianequine (Jul 14, 2011)

I got some red cell today in town and sent off my fecal sample to WSU. I should hear something beginning of next week. 

Yeah I don't know red cell says Fe and the lixotinic just says iron but the other poster said they are not the same irons in them. 

I will try some of this red cell and see if that helps while waiting for fecal results.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 15, 2011)

http://nationalhogfarmer.com/mag/farming_bioavailability_iron_tested/

This article talks a little bit about testing the two different kinds of iron, the one iron is in the vet Rx you are referring to and the other iron is in red cell. I just found the article interesting, but doesn't really answer the question, which one has better more bioavailable iron in it. 

From the article:::

Iron sulfate is the most commonly used source of supplemental iron. The iron is in a form that is readily available to the animal (bioavailable) and it is relatively inexpensive.

However, other sources of iron are also marketed. Many of these sources are referred to as "organic" sources, because the iron is combined with an organic molecule such as an amino acid or protein. Organic sources are usually more expensive per unit of total iron than inorganic sources and therefore must offer some advantage if they are to be justified for inclusion in swine diets. If the iron in organic sources is more bioavailable than the iron in inorganic forms, this may justify their purchase and inclusion in swine diets.


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## Our7Wonders (Jul 15, 2011)

Something that may be worth considering if you're dealing with an anemic animal - then again maybe not, since goat metabolize differently than people, but food for thought anyway:

Calcium blocks iron absorption, vitamin C helps it to absorb better.  I get extremely anemic during pregnancy and I have to be careful to watch the things I'm eating at the time I'm taking my iron.  If I were treating anemia I'd give powdered vitamin C along with it.  When I used red cell I added it to their feed, so I'd add the vitamin C along with it.  I would also try to get them to take it along with a feed that was lower in calcium.  Again, this is based on how people uptake iron.  

Also, my midwives had me drinking a daily glass of warm water with black strap molasses in it for iron as well.  Also nettle tea - my goats like nettle.  Perhaps adding some of these things may be beneficial.

Another thing to possibly consider:  Pat Coleby's book "Natural Goat Care" claims that getting copper levels corrected will often help turn anemia around.  If you're goat may be low on copper it might be worth considering a copper bolus.  I didn't re-read through all the posts so forgive me if it's already been mentioned, do you allow them free choice loose mineral?


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## arabianequine (Jul 15, 2011)

Yes they have free choice minerals out there for about a month and a half now. I had mentioned the brand but no one said anything it might have been in a different thread somewhere. It is what the feed store workers recommended and what they use for their goats. I will try and get the name again. I got them May 1st in pretty bad shape. They are doing very well now and look alot better. I just happened to think the 2 boer does gums/eyelids looked pale the other day. I believer that they are all pregnant but new to goats so hopefully they are not just fat....since I am feeding them better. 

They have had two treatments of iron last night and the night before. When I did it last night, I looked at the older boers eyelids and they looked really red.....but not so much her gums....seemed kinda of pale to me. Well compared to my light chocolate colored togg. See I was thinking the boers are mostly white so their skin pigment might be whiter in general and maybe I should not compare the toggs gums and eyelids to the boers. 

The toggs both looked great so she is not getting the iron. 

I sent off a fecal sample to WSU yesterday they should get it today and have results for me the beginning of next week. I have to wait longer cause of the weekend. I did just reworm the this last weekend with safeguard horse paste at 3x their weight even the togg. I had done Ivermectin horse paste on May 4th and 21st but only did a dose of x2 their weight but I choose to go with the safeguard cause I used the ivermectin already in case they had other worms. 

I have some ivermax pour on coming. 

My vet is checking on the two different products (Red Cell vs. Lixotinic) and should call me today.


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## arabianequine (Jul 15, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> Red cell: I have read any where from 6cc per 100 lbs to 6cc per 40lbs. I would say if you are going to give it everyday and the goat has not had a lot of other mineral supplements, like loose minerals, then give the higher dosage. I have given as much as 30cc to a 120lb goat at one time, but more as a one time deal and not every day for a week.
> 
> I beleive the recommendation is one time every day for a week then once a week, until the animal is less anemic looking. I have been happy with the product.
> 
> ...


I was gonna start another thread on this also because I also wanted to know what you all feed pregnant goats? What should they be getting for good protein? I give them nothing but grass hay and alfalfa. They were getting a lot of alfalfa and I cut way back over the last week. They were each getting 2 good size flakes a day am/pm. 

They are not wanting to eat the grass they just want the alfalfa. I have separate bales of each. They have tons of grassy type hay out there to eat in a big feeder but what I been putting out there they will just leave and hold out for the alfalfa or eat the old stuff in the feeder. If I put grass hay out there I try and make them eat it first before giving the alfalfa but I have been giving the alfalfa once a day now. I just put 2 flakes of grass out last night and it still looks like it has not been touched. 

Of course water and loose minerals.


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## arabianequine (Jul 18, 2011)

I have my fecal results back and it says 1 OPG as the result and isolate (eimeria) 

Whats this mean?


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## arabianequine (Jul 18, 2011)

So the lab says no worms showed at all. 

Just 1 showing for cocci per gram and they said that was normal for goats to have and no treatment recommended. 

Eimeria is cocci. 

What else could be causing the gums to be pale?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 18, 2011)

arabianequine said:
			
		

> So the lab says no worms showed at all.
> 
> Just 1 showing for cocci per gram and they said that was normal for goats to have and no treatment recommended.
> 
> ...


anemia takes a while to fix,. The body has to build the red blood cells back up. 

As far as the alfalfa hay and grass hay, That is a common problem goats love alfalfa, they eat it like candy. I was putting out a bale of alfalfa in the morning for my 15 nursing does and then a bale of grass hay in the evening, They wouldn't touch the grass hay until every little speck of alfalfa was gone.  

Alfalfa is considered a good protein, there is debate about feeding it during pregnancy. some beleiving the high-levels of calcium in the alfalfa causes problems after they kid resulting in milk fever. This is very true in dairy cattle. Doesn't seem to be as much a problem with goats. 

some pelleted feed would also offer protein to your anemic goats. 

I can't remember, but did you talk about feeding your goats minerals?  Healthy levels of minerals in their systerm will also help with the anemia.


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## AlaskanShepherdess (Jul 18, 2011)

I haven't read all the pages, so I just wanted to ask if there might be a mineral they might be getting, or not getting that inhibits or is needed to properly absorb the iron?


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## arabianequine (Jul 19, 2011)

I do have free choice loose minerals out there. They eat very little of it though, it seems. I said the name before in a post but will have to get it again.


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