# First time mom, bad mom?



## taraann81 (Apr 17, 2010)

I had an accidental liiter.
Background info...

My flemish doe(9 months) was bred THROUGH wire by my mini lop buck(the ironic thing was she was only housed beside him for 2 days while we were placing an extra piece of wire between cages so there would be a 2 inch gap).

Anyways I went out one morning to find 14 kits...13 live and 1 dead(I didn't know this was even possible and had planned a pure litter with my gorgeous Fleemie buck).

Anyways, I warmed up the kits and made them a nest(pulled fur from mom).

They are now 10 days old and we are down to 8.

Every day when I bring her into to feed her litter(she will only feed them once a day, the first week I was bringing her in morning and evening but she'd only feed them in the morning)

 As soon as she gets in the cage she hops in the nest box and STOMPS.  The poor kits start screaming and I actually believe this is how we lost the other 5( as after each feeding I check bellies and they have always been full)

Is there anyway I can prevent her from continuing this?  Should I chalk this up to first time mom or bad mom and pull her from our breeding program?

Thanks


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## Bunnylady (Apr 18, 2010)

I do it the other way 'round - I take the litter out to momma. In my 20+ years of messing about with rabbits, I have only known a few that were cool about being picked up and carried around. Most of them get a bit wound up about it, I suspect that is why your doe is stomping. 

I had been wondering how things were going with this litter, and I'm sorry to hear about the losses. A big doe can kill kits just by stepping on the little guys,  the mere thought of a Flemish stomping on them makes me cringe! 

Remember, this girl is a first-time mom, first timers are often dingbats. Many of my girls have not been thrilled about me stealing their kits every night, and a few have stomped a time or two when I returned the nestbox in the morning. They usually get over it.  If I think a doe is likely to do it, I may put the babies into something else, and return the nestbox (still warm, but sans kits) to the mother. She jumps in, and after she gets over being silly, I slip the babies in with her still in the box. The does that really drive me bonkers are the ones that won't stay _out_ of the nestbox! I usually leave litters with their mothers any time I think the weather is warm enough, but I have had a few litters that I had to remove from their mothers' cages for their own safety. These does (first timers, of course!) kept jumping back into the nestbox to check on their newborns, and of course were trampling the kits in the process. 

At 10 days old, your kits will be opening their eyes in the next day or two. I usually start leaving kits with mom about then (depending on the weather). The doe will probably settle down when the kits are always there, before long, she'll have to start telling them "leave me alone, it's not that time!"


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## taraann81 (Apr 18, 2010)

Thanks!  I'll try bringing the kits to her instead.  Yes there eyes are opened and they are so cute!


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## esagiddens (Apr 18, 2010)

We had an accidental liter this past winter, yeah I'm a first timer, so when I did my first planned breeding I brought Lily in. Unfortunately both the brooder and her section of the hutch are too small for her to keep them with her. Needless to say, I take her the buns in the morning and then put them in their own section beside her for the rest of the day. They all stayed inside till it actually got warm enough for them to got out. They are all usually really happy to be reunited in the mornings but she is ready for them to be gone as soon as she's done feeding them


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## lklisk (May 8, 2010)

I did not know that you needed to take the kits away from their mom? This is the first that I have heard of this. lklisk  ????


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## taraann81 (May 8, 2010)

You don't have to take the kits away from their moms.  Most people don't.  I do. If your interested google "the chu method of nestbox management"


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## The Egg Bandit (May 9, 2010)

What the ...?  I have never, ever taken the kits away from their mom.  Is this some kind of newfangled plan?  I have raised several breeds of rabbits quite successfully for years, and the does keep the kids totally (I mean TOTALLY) untouched for three to four days.  Then I check the nest box for fatalities.  If none, they get left to mom again until they start hopping out.  If I smell something funny, or see flies, I check the box again.  Why on earth would someone take the kits away from mom?  Does feed their kits VERY early in the morning. Who wants to get up at 4:00 am?  Again I must ask - what is up with this?  Mother DOES know best.  Let her do her job.  Problem solved.


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## taraann81 (May 9, 2010)

Thanks for the great info egg bandit!  I am glad you've done your research and read this thread and know the background information.  You are obviously a very intelligent person that does not jump to sudden conclusion before...say...googling some of the information(like perhaps the "Chu" method) listed in this thread.

Thanks again for your very insightful and researched reply.  Its really appreciated!  I'm glad I can come to this forum and be answered by knowledgeable people who take time to answer people's questions in a friendly informative manner!  I bet your kids(if your a parent) feel confident in asking you questions and getting help in a non judgmental way!


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## The Egg Bandit (May 9, 2010)

"Chu method" - how about the "rabbit method".  Sheesh.  Some people just have to mess with Mother Nature.  And then they want to complain when it doesn't work out so well.


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## taraann81 (May 10, 2010)

So you think forcing rabbits to live in wire cages suspended in the air and forcing a doe to be confined in a small cage with her nest is natural and the way mother nature intended?

If we look at the way rabbits raise their kits in the wild, you'd see a doe visiting her nest 1 maybe twice a day.  Besides that she stays well away from her nest.

I also see you edited your prior post for politeness.   Thanks.

I believe everybody has their own way of doing things and nobody should force another or belittle another for their choices.

However to assume your method is the natural way( even though it is not any more natural than the chu method and possibly even further removed) just because its the way it has traditionally been done, just seems unthought out.


Think about how a rabbit would birth/kindle raise her kits in the wild....

Is my way truly any further removed from it than yours?

Natural does not = the way we humans have traditionally done it.

But that it seems, is what you are toting as "the rabbit method" and the way mother nature intended it.

Also I have yet to find a rotting fly covered carcass in any of my nests hence reducing the chance of fly strike.


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## Bunnylady (May 10, 2010)

The Egg Bandit said:
			
		

> Why on earth would someone take the kits away from mom?


I can't speak for everyone, but I finally started removing litters when I felt like I couldn't stand to see one more dead litter! I have 5 breeds that I work with, and 4 of them mature under 5 lbs. They tend to have small litters, both numerically and in the size of the individual kits, so the collective mass of the litter isn't that great. Today is May 10, last night's low was 47 degrees (Fahrenheit). If I had any litters under one week of age, bitter experience has taught me that there is a high probability that I would have lost them to the cold. I have also had many, many promising youngsters get out of the nestbox on their own and die on the wire. Taking the litter into the house prevents both of these things from happening.

Until I joined this forum, I had never heard of the "Chu method." All I knew about Betty Chu was that she is an English Angora breeder with top quality animals. I had been removing litters as a matter of course for many years before learning that she does it, too. Frankly, I don't care who else may or may not do it, I just know it works for me.

For me, it was clear that the risks associated with leaving the litter with mom were as great or greater than those of removing them, so I took a chance. When I started pulling the litters, I learned that my does are much more accepting and adaptable than I had been led to believe. I don't have to take the boxes out at dawn and dusk, the does are quite flexible about time. My girls readily adopt other does' kits, should the need arise. Because my bunnies get so much handling, they are people friendly from the beginning, and make good pets or show rabbits. 

There have been a few does in my rabbitry that did everything right at the beginning, that didn't know they had to nurse the babies. Had I not intervened, those litters would have starved. Once the doe was taught her job, she went on to be a productive and successful mother of several more litters, rather than being culled for not producing. In those cases, mother certainly didn't know best!



> Some people just have to mess with Mother Nature.


We breed rabbits in unnatural sizes, with unnatural coats and outrageous colors. We confine them (natural ground dwellers) in wire cages several feet off the ground, feed them pelleted feeds from metal feeders, and teach them to drink water from a metal tube or valve. We keep them on continents that they aren't native to, and breed them in climates that they didn't evolve to deal with. We constantly expose them to contact with predators (us) and give them metal or wooden boxes to give birth in. What, exactly, is natural about any of that?

Different strokes for different folks. And BTW, EB, the only person complaining around here seems to be _you_.

taraann81, how are the kits doing? They must be getting pretty big by now!


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## taraann81 (May 10, 2010)

Hi bunnylady!

yes they are getting very large and adorable!  One of these bunnies, when he's ready, will be donated to become a part of a therapy program for sick children.  It is a new program and they are fighting for government funding but I think these kits will be perfect for it!

They all look like flemish and are quite a good size, only one kit shows any loppy features and she is just a big kit with airplane ears!


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## The Egg Bandit (May 10, 2010)

Well, I hope it works out well for y'all.  I was taught the KISS method of animal husbandry.  But some folks like to work real hard at fighting nature.  Bless their hearts.


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