# No milk...or nipples??



## AmberLops (Jun 13, 2019)

Hi everyone!
This is so strange and I just want to see if anyone else has ever had this problem...
I have 2 Lionhead does who are mother and daughter.
Last month the younger doe (daughter) had a litter of stuck kits and I rebred her, and about 2 weeks ago she had another litter and she did better..she had 4 kits, 2 dead and 2 alive.
She kept them alive for the first 2 days and the 3rd day I checked on them and they were both dead...obviously starving.
I was waiting to see if after 3 days her milk might come in but when I checked her, she had none.
After doing some research on does not producing milk I read about this woman who had a doe give birth and she watched her feed her kits many times but they all died of starvation within 3 days...and when she checked her doe, she had NO nipples! So I immediately went out to check my doe...and she is missing all her nipples except for one!
And that doe's mother (obviously a proven doe!) just had a litter 2 days ago and her kits were starving also, so I put her kits in my Angora's nestbox so she could raise them...and when I checked this doe, she was also missing all nipples except for 2. And those 2 nipples did have milk but the kits couldn't all eat!
It's obviously genetic so i'm not keeping the does after this.
It's just so weird! Oh well...I definitely made sure to check all the young does i'm keeping for nipples!
Have any of you ever seen this??


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## secuono (Jun 13, 2019)

Wow, so bizarre!
I've heard of too many nips, but not missing ones, in any animal.


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## AmberLops (Jun 13, 2019)

I know!
I've never heard of it either and I was really surprised!
It seems so strange and the fact that it's genetic is a real bummer...I love those rabbits but I obviously can't keep them! Of course, the younger doe was already rebred when I found out about it so i'll keep her and give her kits to my other (holland lop) doe who's due around the same time....but after that I guess I have to rehome both nipple-less does to pet homes


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## Mini Horses (Jun 14, 2019)

Wow.  Not heard of that but, oddities happen.  Yep, PET ONLY for them.   Sorry you didn't see before the kits were lost.  I know, never a consideration.   Be happy you didn't get a buck from them...if he's passing this, an entire litter would be "only meat".  I hope you told the person from whom you purchased --  in case.

With goats we check for nipples, generally to be sure they are not fantail or too many.


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## Sheepshape (Jun 14, 2019)

How strange and sad. Babies who die from a lack of milk is just a horrid thing to happen.

As Secuono says, extra,and usually non-functioning, nipples are way more common. There are some weird old pics  on the web of folk with extra nipples/breasts etc., and sheep often have 2 extra nipples. Rams, like men, have two non-functioning ones.

Mastitis can destroy nipples or prevent the milk ducts from draining to the nipple.

Sorry to hear the does are not functional ladies. Somebody will be delighted to have them as pets.


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## Mini Horses (Jun 14, 2019)

Sheepshape said:


> and sheep often have 2 extra nipples.



Are these functioning ones?     I ask as some lines of Boer goats have 4 quadrants, like a cow.


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## Sheepshape (Jun 14, 2019)

Mini Horses said:


> Are these functioning ones?


Unfortunately they are just for show.....never known them to function.


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## JHP Homestead (Jun 14, 2019)

Wow, I’ve never heard of that either. Good job for catching it!


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## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

I wouldn't have thought to look if I hadn't been for that article!
I did tell the person I got them from, but with the way she is I think might have known something was up.
They are both really sweet rabbits. It's such a bummer because they're gorgeous show line rabbits!
I'm sure someone will love to have them as pets 
@B&B Happy goats ...have you ever seen this in your rabbits?!


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 14, 2019)

Not yet, lol...but anything is possible I guess .....But i am very sorry this happened to yous, espically  when you liked them so well


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## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

Well I hope this doesn't happen to anyone else! So strange 
I wonder if it only happens in certain breeds...


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 14, 2019)

It seems like the "fancy " breeds have more interesting  things pop up than the simple standard breeds....


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## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

True!
Plus dwarf breeds are the worst for issues 
I think the Hollands are by far my favorite...even though they are a dwarf breed, they don't have as many problems as the Lionheads and Netherlands


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 14, 2019)

I don't  want to jinx myself  lol, but the New Zelands and Flemish Giants have been the hardiest  rabbits I have had experience  with, very easy keepers


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## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

Good!!
Maybe i'll have luck with the meat rabbits too 
I had to postpone getting my them but I'm finally picking up the NZ's and the Flemish tomorrow! Exciting!!
She has 4 kits right now that are around 6 weeks old...I hope she's pregnant and has 20 more kits ha ha!


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## Bunnylady (Jun 14, 2019)

I've had does with no milk, or only milk in a couple of nipples. I have had the odd doe that was missing one nipple (like, a pair at the back, and instead of two more pairs, two on one side, and one in the middle on the other side), but never missing this many!

Lionheads haven't been around for long (the first imports into this country were less than 20 years ago), but they became wildly popular in a short time. As a result, an awful lot of Lionheads are the result of intense line breeding. For a long time, whenever someone would call me to talk about a rabbit with a health problem, I'd be like, " wait for it . . . ," and sure enough, they'd say, "someone told me it's a Lionhead?" I don't know if that was just the local Lionhead breeders working with poor quality stock or what, but until recently, I would say you couldn't even give me one - they just seemed like asking for trouble. Hopefully, now that the Lionhead is a recognized breed and doing well at shows, people who are serious enough to eliminate such animals from the gene pool will help to make them healthy as well as beautiful.

Generally speaking, I would say that meat rabbits tend to be healthier, for one simple reason - their essential reason for existing is to produce, and any animal that doesn't has no reason to live. An awful lot of pet breeders are people with a couple of pets that they decide to breed, and there is no real selection process besides "oh, that's _pretty_!" Unfortunately, even show breeders can be unscrupulous or maybe just lacking in knowledge; but if we would all be more careful when choosing what to breed, we could eliminate a lot of these problems.


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## AmberLops (Jun 14, 2019)

Bunnylady said:


> I've had does with no milk, or only milk in a couple of nipples. I have had the odd doe that was missing one nipple (like, a pair at the back, and instead of two more pairs, two on one side, and one in the middle on the other side), but never missing this many!
> 
> Lionheads haven't been around for long (the first imports into this country were less than 20 years ago), but they became wildly popular in a short time. As a result, an awful lot of Lionheads are the result of intense line breeding. For a long time, whenever someone would call me to talk about a rabbit with a health problem, I'd be like, " wait for it . . . ," and sure enough, they'd say, "someone told me it's a Lionhead?" I don't know if that was just the local Lionhead breeders working with poor quality stock or what, but until recently, I would say you couldn't even give me one - they just seemed like asking for trouble. Hopefully, now that the Lionhead is a recognized breed and doing well at shows, people who are serious enough to eliminate such animals from the gene pool will help to make them healthy as well as beautiful.
> 
> Generally speaking, I would say that meat rabbits tend to be healthier, for one simple reason - their essential reason for existing is to produce, and any animal that doesn't has no reason to live. An awful lot of pet breeders are people with a couple of pets that they decide to breed, and there is no real selection process besides "oh, that's _pretty_!" Unfortunately, even show breeders can be unscrupulous or maybe just lacking in knowledge; but if we would all be more careful when choosing what to breed, we could eliminate a lot of these problems.


I agree! People give me hate all the time for selling a rabbit that doesn't match the breed standard...they don't realize that it's actually helping the breed!
Lionheads do seem to be the worst as far as health/reproductive issues. They are such beautiful rabbits but I do think it'll take a LOT more time before they become what they should be!


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## Ridgetop (Jun 19, 2019)

Have never seen this and this is the first time I have heard of it.  It is an extreme birth defect particularly in a show animal.  You said these were show rabbits - were these does ever shown themselves?  Hard to see where the judge would have missed that fault.  Anything that impacts being able to breed an animal is usually a cull fault in the standard.  I hope you don't have any other animals related to these 2 does. I would cull the entire line.  Some people will breed animals that have very bad flaws in them, keep the one that doesn't show the fault, and continue breeding it.  The problem is that the fault will continue to appear.  You said that you fostered one of the kits to another doe, did it survive?  I would definitely dispose of it too.   I cull heavily and this would be a definite cull fault.  If you sell these bunnies as pets, there is nothing to prevent anyone from breeding them.  You don't want people telling others that they got these defective bunnies from you and giving you and your herd a bad reputation.  I stopped selling pet animals when someone that talked me into _giving_ them a cull dairy doe as a pet  began to show and told everyone that it was from my herd!  They implied that I had _sold _it to them as a show animal!   After that everything went to the auction or for slaughter.

I have heard of inverted nipples where the teats extend inward instead of outward.  This makes it almost impossible to nurse the young.  In humans, you can bottle feed the baby so it is probably more common.  I saw some vinyl shields in a breast feeding catalog once that were designed to try to suction the nipples outward to allow a woman with inverted nipples to breast feed.


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## AmberLops (Jun 19, 2019)

Ridgetop said:


> Have never seen this and this is the first time I have heard of it.  It is an extreme birth defect particularly in a show animal.  You said these were show rabbits - were these does ever shown themselves?  Hard to see where the judge would have missed that fault.  Anything that impacts being able to breed an animal is usually a cull fault in the standard.  I hope you don't have any other animals related to these 2 does. I would cull the entire line.  Some people will breed animals that have very bad flaws in them, keep the one that doesn't show the fault, and continue breeding it.  The problem is that the fault will continue to appear.  You said that you fostered one of the kits to another doe, did it survive?  I would definitely dispose of it too.   I cull heavily and this would be a definite cull fault.  If you sell these bunnies as pets, there is nothing to prevent anyone from breeding them.  You don't want people telling others that they got these defective bunnies from you and giving you and your herd a bad reputation.  I stopped selling pet animals when someone that talked me into _giving_ them a cull dairy doe as a pet  began to show and told everyone that it was from my herd!  They implied that I had _sold _it to them as a show animal!   After that everything went to the auction or for slaughter.
> 
> I have heard of inverted nipples where the teats extend inward instead of outward.  This makes it almost impossible to nurse the young.  In humans, you can bottle feed the baby so it is probably more common.  I saw some vinyl shields in a breast feeding catalog once that were designed to try to suction the nipples outward to allow a woman with inverted nipples to breast feed.


No these does were never shown. The lady I got them from inherited this line of Lionheads from her mother who bred for show....not even sure if that story is true though!
And I don't show my lionheads. Only my Hollands and Netherlands...the lionheads are a new addition to my rabbitry and so far it's been awful having them.
As for the kit you mentioned that I fostered to my other doe, no it didn't survive.
I know that selling a faulted animal is a bad idea and that anyone can still breed it but I do know a lady who 'rescues' rabbits in my county and she said she'd take the does in and she does not breed them...she just enjoys their company.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 20, 2019)

I think if you are not having a good experience with the Lionheads I would get rid of them and continue with the rabbit breeds you enjoy.  There are a lot of fun looking breeds out there, but I have found over the years (don't want to say how many! LOL) that only ones that are fun to work with should stay in my barn.  That means the ones that breed well, true to type, have few if any health problems, and are "easy keepers".  They are still a lot of work to breed, cull, and show.  Those breeds or species that require extensive care to breed or keep breeding, have to be culled so heavily that they are not productive, or take extensive time, trouble, special feeding, upkeep, or meds to maintain are out of here pronto!

If it is not fun to maintain them and breed them, why bother with that particular breed?  Unless you are looking for a challenge with a super difficult breed.  I am too old for that now, although I used to enjoy those challenges when I was younger.


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## AmberLops (Jun 20, 2019)

I know what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense!
I just would love to be able to better the breed...but maybe it's just not worth it.
My Holland Lops are my absolute favorites...I love everything about them. My Angoras would have to be second and the Netherlands third....then there are the Lionheads 
What kind of rabbits do you raise?


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## Ridgetop (Jun 21, 2019)

We raised rabbits for 30 years - 100 hole barn of NZWs, Holland Lops, our son had Floridas while our daughter had Havanas. I also had some Rhinelanders, and other breeds, while DH loved champagne D'Argents.  We did not stay with those breeds since DH was heavy into NZWs - both showing and meat sales.  I sold all the Holland Lops finally because I had a profitable business selling holiday bunnies, with repeat buyers 2 weeks later after the buyers, their children, or their other pets killed the first bunnies.  I made a lot of money BUT it was depressing knowing that 75% of the pet bunny sales were going to die.    I would rather sell for meat than sell for pets since a lot of pet homes won't listen to your instructions, get tired of the animal and carelessly dispose of it, or kill it from neglect, etc.  I have had bad experiences selling for the pet market.      I like to sell breeding stock and meat.  The breeding stock owners usually take good care of their animals because they want to produce, and meat is terminal.  I love selling to terminal meat buyers - no worrying about how people will take care of the animals and they come back for more.    Later we added some Californians while the kids were in 4-H and DH was surprised to find he really liked them - quicker to market, calmer, etc.  Several dog attacks before getting our LGDs hit us hard, and our children eventually took over our 24' x 36' barn for their dairy goats and sheep. 

At the moment we are redoing our barns and pens for the Dorper sheep flock.  Then DH will rebuild his rabbit barn and go into Californians - show, meat, and breeding stock.  All our cages and equipment, watering apparatus, etc. are waiting.  Our whole family loves to eat rabbit and we have a lot of people wanting to buy meat rabbits from us.  Just have to rebuild a smaller barn first.  Children are grown now so they can't take our barn again!  LOL


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## AmberLops (Jun 21, 2019)

Wow it sounds like you guys are incredibly into your animals!!
I can't wait to have that many rabbits. As of right now, I have just over 40 adults and i'm busy all the time with them...can't imagine 100!
You mentioned that you prefer to sell to breeding homes. How do you advertise specifically for that?
I post mine on craigslist and some of the people are pretty awful to the babies like you said....not taking my advice and end up killing the baby


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## Bunnylady (Jun 22, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> I post mine on craigslist and some of the people are pretty awful to the babies like you said....not taking my advice and end up killing the baby



And then, of course, they believe it's_ your_ fault, because you knowingly sold them a rabbit that was sick, or had something else wrong with it.I've known people that made up a little flyer of basic rabbit care instructions, that they gave to the new owner every time they sold a rabbit. You can talk, and talk, and talk, but most people won't hear half of what you say, and they'll misunderstand a fair percentage of the other half.Sometimes, if they see it in print, they retain a bit more (if they have the sense to read it). Of course, they may just use that thoughtfully written and carefully worded flyer as cage litter, but if they do, the seller can say, "look, I gave you specific instructions, even gave them to you_ in print_, I can't help it if you didn't follow them."

I have to say, the legislation that makes selling a rabbit less than 8 weeks old illegal is useful, both for weeding out the seller that sells babies wa-a-a-y too young, and the buyer who is looking for an animated stuffed toy. Even Netherland Dwarfs lose a lot of their "squee factor" by 8 weeks, and are clawsome enough to make a rambunctious child wary of picking them up.


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## AmberLops (Jun 22, 2019)

I agree. I think the older they are when you sell them the better.
And I actually DO write a care sheet for all the babies I sell ha ha!!
One time I had a lady come with her young daughter to pick out a lop and the next day she called and said I sold her a rabbit with 2 broken hind legs. Of course I told her that it was fine when she came to look at it and she said when she first saw it, it's legs looked strange to her but she has a friend who's a vet and they can take care of it..but she wants her money back. Unbelievable what people will do!! Either she just made that up to get her money back, or her kid broke the rabbit's legs.
I had another lady who told me her neighbor's husky killed the rabbit the same day she brought it home...


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## Bunnylady (Jun 22, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> Either she just made that up to get her money back, or her kid broke the rabbit's legs.



I suspect the child dropped the rabbit (or just _nearly_ dropped it, and grabbed it awkwardly), and it wasn't the legs, but the spine that was broken. It can happen in a heartbeat, and the buyer might not have realized that anything happened. But that business about the legs looking strange is just . . . BS. If she genuinely thought there was something wrong with it, why in the world would she assume that her "friend who's a vet" could magically fix it, and buy it anyway? Piling it higher and deeper, if you ask me.


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## AmberLops (Jun 22, 2019)

Exactly! People can be horrible...
I think the most memorable story is when a lady called about a Holland lop, then said she would come the next day to get it. She called me before she left (she was about an hour away) and said she was so excited and all that...
Then 2 hours went by...I called her to make sure she wasn't lost and she didn't answer her phone.
Then 2 more hours went by and I still hadn't heard from her so I assumed she wasn't coming and was just a scammer.
She called me 3 days later, crying...and told me she was in the hospital and that she got into a car accident on her way to get the rabbit.
She said it wall all my fault and that I owe her a rabbit or the amount of money she was going to pay for it....I already sold the one she was supposed to get and when I told her that she completely lost it (very over-dramatic) and she demanded that I deliver a new rabbit, or the money to her in the hospital...I just hung up the phone.
I couldn't believe it!! She was just a complete scam and so obviously too


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## Ridgetop (Jun 22, 2019)

Absolutely amazing what people can pull and what they think you will fall for!       However some breeders are just as bad.  25 years ago I bought a beautiful Holland Lop finished champion buck from a well known heavily winning breeder out of state.  He said he wanted to sell this champion buck out of state because he did not want to compete with its offspring in his own state.  This buck cost the equivalent nowadays of $1000.00 back then.  He had a beautiful barn and gorgeous animals.  I brought that beautiful buck home and immediately bred it to some of my best does.  There were problems with dead kits and dead litters.  4 months later the buck showed signs of vent disease (rabbit syphilis) which goes dormant and then reappears.  By then having contaminated some of my best does and bucks (when I bred the infected does to my previous bucks), I ended up having to put down half my herd.  Later I heard from people in his state that this was common with this breeder to sell animals out of state that were diseased.  If he sold those animals locally it would have resulted in getting him in trouble with his local club and ARBA.  No local breeders bought from him.  After that I only bought virgin bucks and does.  There are cheats everywhere.  Live and learn.

_*Selling breeding stock:*_  If you want to sell breeding stock, forget Craigslist.  Those buyers won't be interested in top quality breeding stock and they won't want to pay the price of good breeders.  

First, you need to exhibit at as many shows as you can get to.  Volunteer to clerk under different judges at your local shows and learn all you can about the breed standard of the breeds you have.  By that I mean learn to tell a good rabbit with your fingers, not just your eyes.  Also learn the terms the judges use so you can explain them and point out the good points of your rabbits and breeding stock to prospective buyers.  Once you are winning locally make the trek to the larger state conventions to show.  Take the breeding stock you want to sell with you to all the shows and put "For Sale" signs on the cages.  Put the bunnies' pedigrees in plastic sleeves and have them available for prospective buyers to see.  Take more does than bucks to sell, and mix the bunnies so you can sell a breeding trio rather than just siblings.  Only offer show quality bucks for sale.  The shows are where most people buy breeding stock (except those Craigslist buyers who just want to breed a few meat rabbits in the back yard).  Breeders buy and sell at shows.  Sell only excellent stock.  Sell "good" and mediocre animals for pets or meat elsewhere.  You want to become known as a quality breeder, then people will seek you out and you will get referrals from other breeders for your breeding stock.  It make take a couple years, but this will get you the reputation you need to command decent prices.  Don't sell your excellent stock too cheap (pet prices) but don't over price it either.  You want to sell those bunnies after all.  Protect your reputation as a breeder and seller of quality healthy stock and it will pay off for you. 

We took quality breeding animals to shows to sell as juniors at 3 to 6 months old.  We entered a lot of juniors in the shows too.  There is no advertisement as good as to sell a winning junior as a breeder.  You can repeat the breeding and replace that bunny in 6 months.  It also gives the impression that you have so many winners at home you can afford to let this one go.  If it is a neophyte breeder you have just become their mentor, and they will come back to buy more breeding stock.   

We sorted everything at home and because we had meat breeds and a good meat market when DH said this is an "ok" bunny I tossed him into the cull meat cage.  I culled heavily and only kept the best to breed or sell as breeders.  Those bunnies went into a 24" x 24" grower cage at 8 weeks, then we sorted them again at 3 months and 6 months.  Keep the very best to breed in your barn, sell the second best to get a good reputation as a breeder of excellence.  Cull heavily.  With rabbits you can attain a good reputation as a breeder of excellence in just a few years - that equates to 1/3rd of the time it would take in any other species of animal. 

We only sold our meat culls to the butcher, or to meat buyers (many of them where DH worked).  No pets and no live sales.  To avoid the regulations against selling butchered meat, DH would sell the rabbits live and then butcher them "as  favor" to the buyer.  Usually we took orders, collected the $$, butchered and packed in ziplock bags, put them in the freezer, and then delivered the frozen rabbits a day or 2 later.  We also ate a LOT of rabbit.     YUM!  To this day my kids' favorite meal is rabbit and dumplings. 

Hope this helps.  Good luck to you!


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## AmberLops (Jun 22, 2019)

Thank you so much @Ridgetop
I really appreciate your help and i'll take your advice for sure. I love showing the lops...and all my stock are pretty great rabbits. I will just have to show more and more and give up craigslist 
And that's pretty awful what that guy did to you...he's such a liar!
It always amazes me what people will do and say when it comes to buying or selling an animal!


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