# Can I breed cousins?



## Bedste (Jun 22, 2013)

Two different does are bred by the same buck...... can I breed the kids together..... This makes them half/siblings not cousins right?


----------



## goatboy1973 (Jun 23, 2013)

You need to decide if both parent have any traits that you would like preserve by breeding closely related animals. This is called line breeding and it can lock in the good traits as well as the bad. If either parent has a tendency for bad hoof problems, or poor parasite resistance, poor mother ability, low milk production, low weaning weights, single births, low yearling weights etc... You probably wouldn't want to breed closely related animals. Look at the breed standard and also look at what you want this goat to do for you. Will this breeding produce the end product you envision? This is the questions you must answer yourself. Dairy, meat, and cashmere goat breeders have practiced line breeding for years to increase yields and lock in beneficial traits. Good luck!


----------



## TigerLily Trail Ranch (Jul 19, 2013)

Ive heard a couple of arguments on this one. Im not possitive on what the genetic "safe zone" would be though. When issues arise from linebreeding its not because the close genetics create mutations, but rather it happens because the genes are so close they can bring out bad traits that havent been a problem for a while. Mentioning this because some folks dont know this. Anyways I have a friend that happily pairs 1/2 siblings but will not breed parent to kid (2 different genes & 1 same vs. the opposite). Another friend did a lot of "ask the vet" & was told the closest safe zone is grandparent to grandkid. Id assume cousins are OK because they basically fall in the first criteria if both have a 2nd parents that are not closely related or are the same animal. Like it was mentioned above if your willing to cross 1/2 siblings make sure both have traits you want & not ones you want to stay far away from .


----------



## jodief100 (Jul 19, 2013)

I have been asked a lot- what is the difference between inbreeding and line breeding?  The answer is, if you get positive results, it is line breeding, if you get negative results it is inbreeding.  

That being said, I have seen some pedigrees with full siblings, cousins, and father daughter breeding in them and the goats look great.  It just depends on what kind of risk you are willing to take on and why you are doing it.  If you have two closely related animals that have very nice traits you want to propagate and no known negative recessives, this would be something you would want to take a risk on. There is potential for some very nice kids.   If you are just considering this because that is the only animals you have and don't want to buy a new buck, stop and think about it.  Is the cost of a new buck more or less than the chance of unsellable, unusable, sick or even dead kids?  

No matter how many positive traits the animal has, there is no way of knowing what recessives lurk in the genes until they show up. Close relation breeding doesn't make the animals "mutate".  The smaller the gene pool, the bigger chance a negative recessive will present in the phenotype.  Dominate genes can mask some nasty recessives for generations.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Jul 19, 2013)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> I have been asked a lot- what is the difference between inbreeding and line breeding?  The answer is, if you get positive results, it is line breeding, if you get negative results it is inbreeding.


I've heard that a million times.  I just don't agree with that answer.

Inbreeding and line breeding are essentially the same thing .  Inbreeding in strict genetic terminology is the mating of closely related parents.

Line breeding is  merely a term used with livestock.  Doesn't matter if it works or not.

You are breeding a "line" related animals, as opposed to "out crossing" un-related animals

Tiger Lily said a vet told her that grandparent to grandkid was the closest "safe zone"  Breeding a grand parent to a grandkid is still "line breeding"


----------



## TigerLily Trail Ranch (Jul 19, 2013)

Id always heard that difference between line & inbreeding is that line refers to breeding goats or any animal for the matter that both go back to one or more relatives in so many generations (lets say 4). When you go more than so many generations back a common relative isnt, or rather shouldnt be, close enough to bring out bad traits, but thats just how ive heard it. An example of inbreeding within this type of understanding is parent/kid, siblings 1/2 or full, or cousins (same as siblings) with parent/kid & the fulls being the big no no. I personally am not a huge fan of sibling or cousin line breeding (1/2 included) but right now ive got 2 kids around 4 months old, they have the same sire, & both appear to be really good quality so crossing them wouldnt bother me as much if they stayed as impressive as they are now.

It wasnt me that asked a vet but rather a friend . I believe what vet meant by "safe zone" was that that is the closest you can get before risking bringing out serious issues healthwise. So far I havent seen a whole lot that proves this except for maybe what happened with an accidental mother son breeding that involved a jr buck jailbreak with a 50% chance said doe was bred by one of her sons. Anyways she had buck doe twins & the buckling I just got an off vibe from the moment he was born. Never showed or gave any indicators of being ill, but I found him dead at 2 weeks old with no apparent COD. He was just flat out under 1/2 a large dog house I put out so the kids have a safe area. All legs straight out or slightly bended & his eyes were open. He was never necropsied though so it could have been inbreeding or a fluke. Its just funny that it happened the time the doe accidently mixed with her boys & 2 others that arent related.


----------



## OneFineAcre (Jul 19, 2013)

TigerLily Trail Ranch said:
			
		

> Id always heard that difference between line & inbreeding is that line refers to breeding goats or any animal for the matter that both go back to one or more relatives in so many generations (lets say 4). When you go more than so many generations back a common relative isnt, or rather shouldnt be, close enough to bring out bad traits, but thats just how ive heard it. An example of inbreeding within this type of understanding is parent/kid, siblings 1/2 or full, or cousins (same as siblings) with parent/kid & the fulls being the big no no. I personally am not a huge fan of sibling or cousin line breeding (1/2 included) but right now ive got 2 kids around 4 months old, they have the same sire, & both appear to be really good quality so crossing them wouldnt bother me as much if they stayed as impressive as they are now.
> 
> It wasnt me that asked a vet but rather a friend . I believe what vet meant by "safe zone" was that that is the closest you can get before risking bringing out serious issues healthwise. So far I havent seen a whole lot that proves this except for maybe what happened with an accidental mother son breeding that involved a jr buck jailbreak with a 50% chance said doe was bred by one of her sons. Anyways she had buck doe twins & the buckling I just got an off vibe from the moment he was born. Never showed or gave any indicators of being ill, but I found him dead at 2 weeks old with no apparent COD. He was just flat out under 1/2 a large dog house I put out so the kids have a safe area. All legs straight out or slightly bended & his eyes were open. He was never necropsied though so it could have been inbreeding or a fluke. Its just funny that it happened the time the doe accidently mixed with her boys & 2 others that arent related.


Actually, for a "homestead" farm, I agree with what the vet said about it being OK to breed a grandparent to a grandkid.  I think at minimum any farm that is trying to be self sustaining should have at least two bucks and breed a doeling back to her grandsire.

But, that would still be line breeding.  You would still be breeding his "line".  It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

That's the reason why most farms would be better off spending money on a really good buck.

I'm just saying that people use the term differently.  Line breeding "good", in breeding is "bad, but they are really the same thing.

I have a kid now, who was the result of an "accidental" breeding.  Buck got out and bred his daughter.  She's a perfectly healthy, vigorous kid.  In fact her weight gain is huge for her age.  But, her daddy/granddaddy has very posty legs.  She is doubled down on that.  Her daddy/granddaddy throws great udders, so she will probably have that too, but her legs are the worst I've ever seen 

By the way, she's for sale.


----------



## greybeard (Jul 20, 2013)

"cousins" are almost always ok to breed together. "Almost" because there is always a VERY remote chance that 2  alleles will end up in the same genetic offspring even tho the family 'tree' has split several times. VERY remote.  Think about your own human cousins. Closest genetic  relation you directly share with them would be a grandparent.  BUT, it depends mostly on what went on in the past. IF, the line includes some outcrosses in the past history, you are good to go. However, if you and other breeders in the past have strictly line bred, meaning your sire and dam share the same line for way back, then the cousin thing is not such a good idea.  In other words,  breeders interested in maintaining "pure" herds of a single long lived family pedigree  need to be more  careful to avoid matings between half-siblings or cousins or other relatives than do breeders who use multiple families.

Genetics tho, are genetics, regardless of the livestock species, and yes, there is a difference between inbreeding and line breeding, tho the difference may seem murky. You can linebreed without intentionally inbreeding but you cannot intentionally inbreed with linebreeding.  

Inbreeding takes place most often in single trait selections. In plant genetics--flowers--that single trait selection is perhaps a unique shape  or most often- color. A blue rose comes to mind. It does not exist in nature, and only by genetic engineering and after 13 years of work, were geneticists able to produce one, tho it was really more lavender than blue. If, one is ever really found in nature, that rose would be used in inbreeding to preserve that single trait selection. (that rose owner would be a millionaire overnight as well)  Crossing that blue rose with any other in the line that produced the blue rose is all but guaranteed to change the color back to a more traditional hue, so they would use only inbreeding--plant style. 

Single trait selection via inbreeding does some wonderful things with animals, but because it requires the genes to pair up from closely related mates, (and only closely related mates)  there is also a much greater risk that an undesirable trait would also be paired up.  Think of it as "breeding in" a specific trait.  I could explain it here, but it would be lengthy. Here is an article involving cattle and inbreeding/linebreeding. Remember, genetics are genetics regardless of breed or species. It explains it pretty well:

http://doublehelixranch.com/defects.html


----------



## frustratedearthmother (Jul 20, 2013)

I have line bred Pygmy goats extensively for over a dozen years.  I started with good goats and have mostly seen improvement for generation after generation.  My goats have done well in the show ring for years.  I'm not saying they have all been winners - I have bred a dud or two - but they taste good.  If you are going to line breed you wil do best if you are serious about culling.  The few that I've culled have not had any genetic anomalies, they just didn't live up to the pygmy breed standard.

I concentrated on a family of does who had easy births and I have virtually eliminated kidding problems from my herd.  That's a big deal in the Pygmy world.  It also might also have something to do with kicking them out of the barn and making them work for a living out in the pasture.  After these many years the one thing I have noticed is that in the last couple of generations my goats are maturing at a smaller size.  Still no kidding problems, but an overall smaller goat.

I have, this year acquired another buck.  I got him from folks who bought goats from me and his lineage goes back to my herd although it is at least 5 generations back.  

I'm anxious to see what happens with him.  My fear however, is that the dreaded dystocia will pop up again....  Nothing to do but try and see.


----------



## greybeard (Jul 20, 2013)

frustratedearthmother said:
			
		

> I have line bred Pygmy goats extensively for over a dozen years.  I started with good goats and have mostly seen improvement for generation after generation.  My goats have done well in the show ring for years.  I'm not saying they have all been winners - I have bred a dud or two - but they taste good.  If you are going to line breed you wil do best if you are serious about culling.  The few that I've culled have not had any genetic anomalies, they just didn't live up to the pygmy breed standard.
> 
> I concentrated on a family of does who had easy births and I have virtually eliminated kidding problems from my herd.  That's a big deal in the Pygmy world.  It also might also have something to do with kicking them out of the barn and making them work for a living out in the pasture.  *After these many years the one thing I have noticed is that in the last couple of generations my goats are maturing at a smaller size.  Still no kidding problems, but an overall smaller goat.*
> 
> ...


The emphasized text:
We see this in cattle too, as the market buyers have opted for a smaller frame size than in decades past. Breeders now shoot for a smaller BW, but a heavier WW in their EPDs, along with a fast maturing animal-but at an overall smaller frame size at maturity or slaughter age, and that is difficult to do without paying very very close attention to the offspring as each successive generation is bred. What happens is the breeder breeds the large size out, and eventually, if hard culling isn't done, they end up with heifers and even older cows that are simply too small to give birth without assistance.  I don't know anything about goats to speak of, but sounds like you are doing a good job in your cull protocol, and that is key to preventing birthing problems.
Yeah, I know--It's hard to get rid of an animal that raises otherwise great offspring, but a difficult birth just isn't worth it to me. Too much chance of losing both dam and calf, and even if the calf survives, there's a good chance she'll pass that problem on to her offspring. 
And again, this is a problem that is seen  industry wide in animal husbandry of all breeds and species.


----------



## jodief100 (Jul 22, 2013)

Another thing to consider, sometimes the issues due to close breeding do not show up for a few generations.  The kids from closely related offspring do well but then one of those dreaded negative recessives shows up in their kids. 

I am not sure how much everyone here understands genetics or how much detail I can go into without either confusing some people and patronizing others.  The simple explanation is almost all genes are paired, one from each parent (XY chromosome is the exception).  One gene is dominant over the other.  The dominant trait is the one that expresses itself in the animal, the phenotype- what you see.  The genotype is what is in the genes, which may or may not been seen.  The blue vs brown eye in humans is the simplest example.  If you get a brown eyed gene from both parents, you have brown eyes and cannot have a blue eyed child, the genotype is homozygous(same) brown.  If you get a brown eye gene from one parent and a blue from the other than you have brown eyes but can have a blue eyed child because you can pass that blue eye gene to your children, heterozygous(different) brown.  If you get a blue eyed gene from both parents, you have blue eyes.  Most traits are controlled by multiple genes so it is usually more complicated than that.  

When you breed closely related animals, you reduce the variation in the genes.   There are fewer opportunities for "bad" recessives  to be covered by "good" dominant ones.  If there are bad recessives in the genome, the odds are increased they will present in the phenotype or be passed down tot he next generation.  This is also why males have more genetic issues than females.  The Y chromosome is much shorter than the X.  It is the one place in the genome where a gene will not have a pair.  Negative recessives carried on the X chromosome can be masked if there is a second X chromosome present but not it the second chromosome is a Y.  So traits such as color blindness (a annoying yet benign issue) or Duchenne's (deadly), a female would need to get the gene from both parents where a male only needs to get the gene from his mother.   

EarthMother is correct, don't go down the linebreeding road unless you are willing to be aggressive about culling and keeping inferior animals out of the gene pool.


----------

