# saanen/sable thread



## manybirds (Sep 7, 2011)

If there isn't one I would like to start one.


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## Bedste (Sep 7, 2011)

so tell me something that makes the saanen or sable special


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## Ms. Research (Sep 7, 2011)

Had to check the Saanen out myself.  They are the largest dairy goat and have a very mild manner temperment.  They are kindly referred to as Marshmellows.  I could see why manybirds would like this breed.  

Dumb question:  Sable means color?


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## kstaven (Sep 8, 2011)

Sable (not white) and Saanen(white) are classed as different breeds on the registries.  We have both here and the sables are more vocal, a slightly heavier structure than the Saanen(white), and really show themselves to have better milking longevity.

We have found as a milker a Sable may not be quite as feed efficient as the Saanen, but in many ways they are a hardier goat. Unless a person was weighing the feed daily or running 500 head the difference in feed intake would likely not even be noticed. 

Both male and female have to carry the recessive gene to produce a sable kid. So it can remain hidden in a herd for some time, as it often does not fully express itself even when a kid carries two copies of the gene. But even when the kid is white there are often more subtle cues that it is a sable. A slightly deeper body and heavier leg is the first clue that you are dealing with a sable and not a Saanen. Saanens have very white skin while a sable has a darker skin. You often see what at first glance is a Saanen only to find on closer inspection slight flecks of color on the hairs. Sables also do better in extreme heat and cold than the Saanen.


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## 77Herford (Sep 8, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> Sable (not white) and Saanen(white) are classed as different breeds on the registries.  We have both here and the sables are more vocal, a slightly heavier structure than the Saanen(white), and really show themselves to have better milking longevity.
> 
> We have found as a milker a Sable may not be quite as feed efficient as the Saanen, but in many ways they are a hardier goat. Unless a person was weighing the feed daily or running 500 head the difference in feed intake would likely not even be noticed.
> 
> Both male and female have to carry the recessive gene to produce a sable kid. So it can remain hidden in a herd for some time, as it often does not fully express itself even when a kid carries two copies of the gene. But even when the kid is white there are often more subtle cues that it is a sable. A slightly deeper body and heavier leg is the first clue that you are dealing with a sable and not a Saanen. Saanens have very white skin while a sable has a darker skin. You often see what at first glance is a Saanen only to find on closer inspection slight flecks of color on the hairs. Sables also do better in extreme heat and cold than the Saanen.


Glad your around Staven, I don't get this extra info from books I have.  I was seriously considering Saanen's but the Sable looks like a much better option if I do go Goat.


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## kstaven (Sep 8, 2011)

They don't get skin cancer the way their white cousins do also.

Two copies of the gene fully expressed does make more than a color change. Milking records here make that pretty obvious.

Where the waters get murky is with the registry. If they really wanted to do a clean split you would have to test every saanen out there for the presence of the recessive gene. There are many listed as saanen who really are sable. Get into the history and you find almost all the top production saanens came from sable parents, as did a goodly percentage of the top show goats.


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## kstaven (Sep 8, 2011)

77Herford said:
			
		

> I was seriously considering Saanen's but the Sable looks like a much better option if I do go Goat.


It has been our experience that they have an edge in some areas. Still love my saanen's too.

No doubt some of the Saanen people will not like my commentary. But this has been our experience and production findings.


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## manybirds (Sep 8, 2011)

Ms. Research said:
			
		

> Had to check the Saanen out myself.  They are the largest dairy goat and have a very mild manner temperment.  They are kindly referred to as Marshmellows.  I could see why manybirds would like this breed.
> 
> Dumb question:  Sable means color?


a sable is a colored saanen


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## manybirds (Sep 8, 2011)

Saanens and sables (particularly sables) are my favorite goats


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## TheMixedBag (Sep 10, 2011)

So would my doe be considered a sable then? She's got at least 3 spots of black hairs, very spotty pigmented skin except for a half band on her left side that's all white, very spotted ears (hair too), but her build is more like that of a Saanen, it seems. Plenty of bone, though.

It wouldn't *really* matter as far as registration, considering she's 50% RG (she's technically American, but her dam's papers were never transferred), but it would be nice to know.


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## kstaven (Sep 10, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> So would my doe be considered a sable then? She's got at least 3 spots of black hairs, very spotty pigmented skin except for a half band on her left side that's all white, very spotted ears (hair too), but her build is more like that of a Saanen, it seems. Plenty of bone, though.
> 
> It wouldn't *really* matter as far as registration, considering she's 50% RG (she's technically American, but her dam's papers were never transferred), but it would be nice to know.


IF I am visualizing what you are describing correctly it sounds more like a cross.

Sables aren't cross breeds.


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## manybirds (Sep 10, 2011)

kstaven said:
			
		

> TheMixedBag said:
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it might be purebred just a little lighter boned. who knows, i'm no goat expert myself.


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## kstaven (Sep 10, 2011)

Have any pics?


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## TheMixedBag (Sep 12, 2011)

Yup, I got photos. None with the black spots, they're all less than a 1/2 inch in diameter, and are invisible when she's shaved. She is technically an American Saanen, her dam was registered american and so is her sire.









This photo was back toward the end of June, and she wasn't really *that* skinny, she was sucking in to yell at me for having her tied up, but it's the best photo to show the only patch of pink skin she's really got (the stretch of skin over her ribs). The rest of her skin is much darker with black pigment spots.


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## kstaven (Sep 13, 2011)

Not what I was visualizing initially.

Her skin is as dark as my Sables. Saanens not carrying the genes are quite pale skinned. Part of the reason they are so prone to skin cancer in very hot sunny climates.

She looks big boned and thick enough in the neck to be leaning sable. If you look here http://www.saanens.com/ you will note the finer boned, thin necked, rounded rib cage. from the top pic yours shows a deeper rib cage that appears to be squarer at the back. Bridge of the skull looks wider also.

Track the lineage back. Does yours go back to GIDEON D 26976, Alta Switzerland, Three Oaks Blossoms Lad, Andreas Hofer, Victor, Saanee out of (echo or excelsior?).  Lines well known to carry the gene.

IMHO the only way to really ever clean up the registry if people truly want to continue to class Sable as a different breed will be to move a lot of the old lines now registered as Saanen over to sable and do huge amounts of genetic testing on current stock. That will never happen because it would cost a small fortune and likely turn the community inside out. So Sable genetics will continue to be part of the Saanen registry and colored kids will continue to appear. Some to be slaughtered at birth. I know a breeder of note that does this as a matter of course to protect her rep as a pure Saanen breeder. Sad, because in protecting her rep she is introducing the trait into others herds that may not have it.

So back to the original question. Is she a Saanen or Sable? Read here  and note there is no clear division with the ADGA and considering the ADGA referencing there never will be. 

So by genetics I would bet sable but by the way the ADGA has things worded the answer is Saanen by registration, with good potential of taking kids to experimental or Sable.

Isn't it great to have such clarity in the registry?


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## 77Herford (Sep 13, 2011)

You just put me off Sables, lol.  Too confusing.  Sad they won't do the work many have in past breeds to make a sub-species.


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## manybirds (Sep 13, 2011)

77Herford said:
			
		

> You just put me off Sables, lol.  Too confusing.  Sad they won't do the work many have in past breeds to make a sub-species.


you can show sables under ADGA they're trying to get more breeders as a matter of fact because there arn't always enough of them at a show to make a class.


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## TheMixedBag (Sep 13, 2011)

Well, one side of her pedigree is completely untraceable, but her sire is Triple-S-Farms Drepk Van Huey, who has never thrown another kid like her, so odds are it came from her dam's side (unless my buck is a sable too-he's got pretty dark skin, but absolutely no black hairs in sight, and black skin spots are few and far between. They were non-existent when he was a baby).

I did always want a sable, I just didn't know one was actually sitting right in front of me the whole time. Oooh, next year I could breed her to the sable buck I know someone has....


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## manybirds (Sep 13, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Well, one side of her pedigree is completely untraceable, but her sire is Triple-S-Farms Drepk Van Huey, who has never thrown another kid like her, so odds are it came from her dam's side (unless my buck is a sable too-he's got pretty dark skin, but absolutely no black hairs in sight, and black skin spots are few and far between. They were non-existent when he was a baby).
> 
> I did always want a sable, I just didn't know one was actually sitting right in front of me the whole time. Oooh, next year I could breed her to the sable buck I know someone has....


If your doe is a sable and you bred her to a sable buck then you'de probably get sable babies because both parents have to carry the sable gene to throw sables.


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## kstaven (Sep 13, 2011)

TheMixedBag said:
			
		

> Well, one side of her pedigree is completely untraceable, but her sire is Triple-S-Farms Drepk Van Huey, who has never thrown another kid like her, so odds are it came from her dam's side (unless my buck is a sable too-he's got pretty dark skin, but absolutely no black hairs in sight, and black skin spots are few and far between. They were non-existent when he was a baby).
> 
> I did always want a sable, I just didn't know one was actually sitting right in front of me the whole time. Oooh, next year I could breed her to the sable buck I know someone has....


Your buck would have to carry one copy of the gene in order to have a sable kid. They have to acquire a copy from dam and sire.


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## kstaven (Sep 13, 2011)

77Herford said:
			
		

> You just put me off Sables, lol.  Too confusing.  Sad they won't do the work many have in past breeds to make a sub-species.


Problem is ADGA is playing both sides of the fence on this one. On one hand they call it a separate breed and in the next sentence they treat it like a sub.

Must say that the U.S. is in better shape than Canada. Up here if it isn't squeaky clean white you can't register it. No potential to register a sable. I have three distinct family lines all from good Saanen stock that are unregistered and no potential to get them registered. Know a number of others in the same boat.


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## willow_top_farm (Sep 16, 2011)

Here's my 2 cents. My first does were both Saanen, one white, one sable. The sable was definitely more "stocky" looking, shorter, thicker neck, and a bit more "rotund" than the white saanen. The white Saanen had a more refined and feminine appearance. I'd often referred to her as "princess" not only due to her personality but her regal appearance. The sable's coloring was a more creamy, almost light ginger color. Both were registered.  The sable's kid/now whether is lighter, but still creamy colored.  In my short experience, the white saanen was a great milk producer (1.5 gallons a day in her first freshening), but was very hard to keep any weight on her, it all went into milk. The sable was an average producer of 3/4 a gallon, first freshening, but kept in good condition through her lactation. Again these were my first and only (so far) Saanens.  I have recently acquired a Saanen doeling (white) and am looking forward to seeing what she'll do in the spring.

p.s. the photo in my avatar is the sable's kid. Initially he looked very white and then developed a more creamy color later on.


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## manybirds (Sep 16, 2011)

willow_top_farm said:
			
		

> Here's my 2 cents. My first does were both Saanen, one white, one sable. The sable was definitely more "stocky" looking, shorter, thicker neck, and a bit more "rotund" than the white saanen. The white Saanen had a more refined and feminine appearance. I'd often referred to her as "princess" not only due to her personality but her regal appearance. The sable's coloring was a more creamy, almost light ginger color. Both were registered.  The sable's kid/now whether is lighter, but still creamy colored.  In my short experience, the white saanen was a great milk producer (1.5 gallons a day in her first freshening), but was very hard to keep any weight on her, it all went into milk. The sable was an average producer of 3/4 a gallon, first freshening, but kept in good condition through her lactation. Again these were my first and only (so far) Saanens.  I have recently acquired a Saanen doeling (white) and am looking forward to seeing what she'll do in the spring.
> 
> p.s. the photo in my avatar is the sable's kid. Initially he looked very white and then developed a more creamy color later on.


they sound like good producers. i wish i had them  i'm in love with the saanens and sables.


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## willow_top_farm (Sep 16, 2011)

I wish I did too. I lost the both to bloat a few weeks ago.


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## manybirds (Sep 16, 2011)

willow_top_farm said:
			
		

> I wish I did too. I lost the both to bloat a few weeks ago.


o thats to bad. what did they get into? or did they over eat or what? that sucks.


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## willow_top_farm (Sep 17, 2011)

manybirds said:
			
		

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They got out of their pen together and got into the grain and literally ate themselves to death.  I worked all day to save them, but by 9 pm that evening we had to have the vet put them both down.  It was heartbreaking.  Still is.  But my generous and kind neighbor traded her Saanen doeling from this year's kidding for my graphic design and farrier services (I'm no expert hoof trimmer, but she hates doing it).  So I'm starting over. I still have the doe's kids (all whethers) and love them very much. I'm working on training them to pull a cart.


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## manybirds (Sep 17, 2011)

willow_top_farm said:
			
		

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tell me how your carting goes, i would like to try that too sometimes. sorry about your goats. did your neighbor give you a registered one or not? hope she turns out good!


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