# Calves for $1?



## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 23, 2019)

So we went to a pretty small, and clean livestock auction today.  I’m trying to talk my husband into buying one beef cow to raise for our extended family.  Anyways...the calves came out...many were good lookers and went for a decent price.  But some, not so much.    Surely they had health issues..splayed  legs, no suckle reflex, etc.  So..is there any use...I know this sounds heartless...but I’m simply curious because many farmers wanted nothing to do with the runts.  Is there any use in buying this type of calf to butcher now...or, since it’s still bottle fed, is the meat so good.  I realize there’s hardly any meat..but for $1... it might be worth it?  I have no clue..I mean if they aren’t healthy to eat and would cost money to get them healthy, then it’s a loss.  But we couldn’t understand why they were taking them for $1..or...why a farmer would even bother bring them when they will get so little.  I don’t agree with this..but my hubby’s uncle shoots the males because it’s not worth going to auction..this doesn’t make sense to us. Can anyone explain?


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## farmerjan (Dec 23, 2019)

Right now the prices on the small calves is pretty bad everywhere.   The reason that his uncle will shoot them is because it will cost anywhere from $5 to $15 to sell them.... auction commission costs.  So why get a bill for a calf to be sold.  

If the calf has not had any antibiotics, they would make very white veal.  Is it worth your time to kill it?  It would cost you what a goat or sheep would cost to have a butcher kill it.... and to only get the meat off the hind quarters and the shoulders would not be worth a butchers time.  If you did it yourself, then maybe.  If you got a small one, that had a sucking reflex, then getting it started on milk, and raising it to 2-300 lbs for veal would be worth it. IF you have the milk.  Not milk replacer.  We have killed a beef calf for veal when it broke it's leg;  and one that the cow got mastitis and nearly kicked its head off and  after 2 weeks I couldn't get it to take a bottle, it was starting to lose weight,  so we just killed it for veal

Farmers will gamble that maybe someone will want them and it will pay them enough to take them rather than dispose of them.  Or they had a few bigger ones and just put the smaller one(s) on there hoping it would bring enough to cover commission. 

Smaller calves just take longer to grow, to get the size, and then if they don't have the frame the feedlots don't want them.  They make good beef if you have plenty of grass and such once they get up to about 5-600 lbs.  But it takes too much to get them up there.  That is why veal would be a good alternative....if you have extra milk.


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## Baymule (Dec 23, 2019)

So I think what @farmerjan is saying.....you need a milk cow! Then you could buy the sickly $1 calves, milk the cow and bottle feed the calves until they could go suckle the cow themselves. You would probably lose a lot of them, poor babies probably haven't even had colostrum and will die without it.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 24, 2019)

Got it..so the hubb was right again since we don’t have the milk..he said the replacement would cost wayyy too much, as I’ve done it with other animals.  He can do the butchering..but he said it would be a big waste of time for so little meat..like plucking a duck by hand...Ok, I guess we’ll hold off on cows for now.  My Dad keeps buying half a processed cow for my fitness finatic son..costing him a fortune..I want to raise one for him instead.  Still shooting a deer a deer would would be the best, but none of them have had much luck, since they sit in the camp and sleep...


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## MiniSilkys (Dec 25, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Got it..so the hubb was right again since we don’t have the milk..he said the replacement would cost wayyy too much, as I’ve done it with other animals.  He can do the butchering..but he said it would be a big waste of time for so little meat..like plucking a duck by hand...Ok, I guess we’ll hold off on cows for now.  My Dad keeps buying half a processed cow for my fitness finatic son..costing him a fortune..I want to raise one for him instead.  Still shooting a deer a deer would would be the best, but none of them have had much luck, since they sit in the camp and sleep...


besides too much sleeping, now everyone has to worry about CWD in deer. We are planning to plant field peas and turnips for the feed on our farm to keep them from leaving the area. Maybe if we can keep them away from the areas where there is CWD then maybe they will be ok. We don't even eat them but still want them healthy.


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## farmerjan (Dec 25, 2019)

What do you consider "costing a fortune" for the half?  Is it that much considering the amount of meat?  I figure that it will cost approx $6.00 lb for the actual meat you get.  That is the average for all the meat, from ground beef to the best steaks.  You aren't going to be saving a whole lot if you don' t eat all the cuts, but the thing is for me knowing where our meat is coming from.  I haven't bought beef in probably 30+ years. Although it is not an "out of pocket" expense like if I were just "buying it".... We do figure in the value of the meat if it were sold.  That is one of the reasons I eat my jersey steers.  The calves aren't worth anything, the steers aren't worth more than $.50-.60 lb at 500+ lbs.,  so they are best for beef.  We have the pasture and one or 2 extras out there eating are not going to make or break us.  If we got into a severe drought time, they would be the first to go to butcher regardless of the size. But to buy a good "beef" animal is more than a jersey.  The one thing about the jerseys, they take a little longer to grow out than a beef, but they also don't have the fat that a beef animal has. There are trade offs.

A  1200 animal is worth 1.15 lb live weight.  Current prices from the "fat stock" sale last week here locally.  Figure 50% of that is hanging.  Another 50% is actual, in your freezer,  meat.  Now, that is rough estimates.  USDA says that the hanging weight is 60% and another 60% is cut.... but we figure that 50% is good, then anymore than that is a plus.  So 1/4 or 25% of actual live weight is meat.  That makes that steer worth 3.50-4.00 /  lb before you pay the butcher fee which here will run about $250..... or in the neighborhood of close to  $1.00 lb, killed, cut, wrapped and frozen.... that is vacuum  packed.  I don't do any paper wrap anymore because vacuum packed will keep for several years if kept frozen, with no pin holes from moving the frozen packages around in the freezer. So if you get a good 300 lb of actual meat, that is about  $1500.... but if you figure that you are going to pay 4.00 lb for good ground beef, or more, then you are getting nearly the value of the meat in ground beef.  I wouldn't buy cheap  ground beef so would probably spend at least 4-5.00 lb for it.  I have no idea what it is bringing now.  You will get approx 1/4 to 1/3 of your meat in ground beef and stew meat cuts.  Trimmings....  but then you have to figure the difference in what those really nice steaks are worth.  I get NY strips, ribeyes, filets, and then get the backbones to use for bbq like ribs, or soup etc.  All the sirloins..... plus,  I get as many of the bones back that I can. 
 Believe me, we are not making a killing on a beef in the freezer.  We actually will do better selling it as a live weight of 1000 lbs or more and let the buyer do all the rest.  Again, you have to figure that it costs us at least $500 (1.50 per day yearly average) per year to keep a beef cow. That's what we need to get out of a weaned calf  JUST TO BREAK EVEN.  Not counting our labor.  It takes 18-24 months to get an animal up to 1000 lbs.  So we have nearly 1000 in that animal just  to get it to that size.  We try to sell  feeders in the 500 lb size but with steers only bringing 1.40 lb at that size, we are getting back about 700 .  Heifers will bring about 1.20,  600. So if you figure that we are making an average 650 a calf, and 500+ is the cost of keeping the momma cow for the year, then we are making 150 per calf per year.  That's not much for our labor.  If we sell 100 feeders that is only 15,000 per year.  Can you live on that, comfortably,  and get ahead?   That is not counting any major equipment breakdowns, or purchases.  That is TOTAL pay for us.... if you figure out how much actual time we put in over the course of the year.... at the average of 40 hrs per week for 52 weeks,  which is ridiculously low, that's less than 8,00 per hour.  Especially since you figure we don't work 5 - 8hour days with weekends off.  We might only "work"  4-5 hours a day in the winter,  but then add in equipment maintenance you are up to at least 50 hours/week in the winter, plus anywhere from 8-14 hour days during the calving/growing/harvesting seasons.  6-7 days a week.  It is figured that farmers in general make about   $3-4 per hour actual labor wages. 

We figure that we need at least $1.75 lb for steers @ 500 lbs., to make a small but fair profit.  With the inflation rates, cost of living increases over the past 20 years,  we  should be getting 2.00 lb or more. LIVE WEIGHT. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to carry this on so far.  I just was wondering what you felt was  too much to pay and wanted you to know that there were alot of costs that the average person doesn't see.  If they are getting $8-10 per lb then they are making enough of a profit to be able to operate and make a living.  

CWD is in deer here.  Have to be careful of making sure they are healthy when you shoot.  No guarantees.  And planting deer plots is good except that you have no way of knowing if the ones eating are healthy.  They travel too much to really be sure of one not being a carrier when it comes through.  And the bucks will travel.  So I am not sure that the plots are of any real advantage to "keep 'em home".  Maybe.


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## Mini Horses (Dec 25, 2019)

Thank you FarmerJan!!

One of the reasons I don't do cows.  AND I would be a fairly good one to keep a cow & raise a calf per year because I have the pasture to do so.   OR bottle a calf as I have so much extra goat milk to use.   BUT...not doing.  I will raise a lamb or meat goat instead.  My goat meat tastes amazingly like beef, IMO.   But not a beef steak replacement!!   Stews, BBQ, ground, all ok.   I just pony up at a sale for a couple nice NY strips.    

Older I get, the less meat I consume per portion.   Veggie garden needs more attention.


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## farmerjan (Dec 25, 2019)

@Mini Horses  you might want to reconsider when the goats come into milk about raising a couple of bottle calves.  They will gain good on goat milk, one of the other milk testers raises calves on her goat milk and says they do real good.  I am thinking,  and the general overall feeling of some of the buyers, is that cattle prices are going to be better in 2020 and I think a fair amount better in 2021.  If you could get a few bottle calves for "cheap" that are healthy, and then sell them in the 400 lb range, you could probably make a little the next couple of years.  The trick is to get in just as they go up and not get too stuck in raising them as the prices look to fall.  They would do good if your grass is growing good.  You also have a longer "growing season" than I do because of the proximity to the coast and warmer temps sooner in the spring and lasting longer in the fall.  Aren't your goats due early this spring (late winter) due to someone going "visiting" ?   You would have a jump on people that wait for the weather to warm up more. 

I am trying to consume more meat/protein as I get older to use as building blocks in my body.  The more that I read the more I think that because we often eat less as we get older, we wind up not getting enough protein.  So, I have been trying to get more per meal that I eat it and I have noticed that I feel better when I do.  Plus it has really helped to curb my cravings lately for higher carb foods.  Maybe it is my imagination.


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## MiniSilkys (Dec 25, 2019)

farmerjan said:


> What do you consider "costing a fortune" for the half?  Is it that much considering the amount of meat?  I figure that it will cost approx $6.00 lb for the actual meat you get.  That is the average for all the meat, from ground beef to the best steaks.  You aren't going to be saving a whole lot if you don' t eat all the cuts, but the thing is for me knowing where our meat is coming from.  I haven't bought beef in probably 30+ years. Although it is not an "out of pocket" expense like if I were just "buying it".... We do figure in the value of the meat if it were sold.  That is one of the reasons I eat my jersey steers.  The calves aren't worth anything, the steers aren't worth more than $.50-.60 lb at 500+ lbs.,  so they are best for beef.  We have the pasture and one or 2 extras out there eating are not going to make or break us.  If we got into a severe drought time, they would be the first to go to butcher regardless of the size. But to buy a good "beef" animal is more than a jersey.  The one thing about the jerseys, they take a little longer to grow out than a beef, but they also don't have the fat that a beef animal has. There are trade offs.
> 
> A  1200 animal is worth 1.15 lb live weight.  Current prices from the "fat stock" sale last week here locally.  Figure 50% of that is hanging.  Another 50% is actual, in your freezer,  meat.  Now, that is rough estimates.  USDA says that the hanging weight is 60% and another 60% is cut.... but we figure that 50% is good, then anymore than that is a plus.  So 1/4 or 25% of actual live weight is meat.  That makes that steer worth 3.50-4.00 /  lb before you pay the butcher fee which here will run about $250..... or in the neighborhood of close to  $1.00 lb, killed, cut, wrapped and frozen.... that is vacuum  packed.  I don't do any paper wrap anymore because vacuum packed will keep for several years if kept frozen, with no pin holes from moving the frozen packages around in the freezer. So if you get a good 300 lb of actual meat, that is about  $1500.... but if you figure that you are going to pay 4.00 lb for good ground beef, or more, then you are getting nearly the value of the meat in ground beef.  I wouldn't buy cheap  ground beef so would probably spend at least 4-5.00 lb for it.  I have no idea what it is bringing now.  You will get approx 1/4 to 1/3 of your meat in ground beef and stew meat cuts.  Trimmings....  but then you have to figure the difference in what those really nice steaks are worth.  I get NY strips, ribeyes, filets, and then get the backbones to use for bbq like ribs, or soup etc.  All the sirloins..... plus,  I get as many of the bones back that I can.
> Believe me, we are not making a killing on a beef in the freezer.  We actually will do better selling it as a live weight of 1000 lbs or more and let the buyer do all the rest.  Again, you have to figure that it costs us at least $500 (1.50 per day yearly average) per year to keep a beef cow. That's what we need to get out of a weaned calf  JUST TO BREAK EVEN.  Not counting our labor.  It takes 18-24 months to get an animal up to 1000 lbs.  So we have nearly 1000 in that animal just  to get it to that size.  We try to sell  feeders in the 500 lb size but with steers only bringing 1.40 lb at that size, we are getting back about 700 .  Heifers will bring about 1.20,  600. So if you figure that we are making an average 650 a calf, and 500+ is the cost of keeping the momma cow for the year, then we are making 150 per calf per year.  That's not much for our labor.  If we sell 100 feeders that is only 15,000 per year.  Can you live on that, comfortably,  and get ahead?   That is not counting any major equipment breakdowns, or purchases.  That is TOTAL pay for us.... if you figure out how much actual time we put in over the course of the year.... at the average of 40 hrs per week for 52 weeks,  which is ridiculously low, that's less than 8,00 per hour.  Especially since you figure we don't work 5 - 8hour days with weekends off.  We might only "work"  4-5 hours a day in the winter,  but then add in equipment maintenance you are up to at least 50 hours/week in the winter, plus anywhere from 8-14 hour days during the calving/growing/harvesting seasons.  6-7 days a week.  It is figured that farmers in general make about   $3-4 per hour actual labor wages.
> ...


The CWD is not in our county, yet. But it is close. Every year we see about 8 deer plus 3-4 littler ones. It seems to be always the same number. We know where they sleep. We have a creek on 2 sides of 40 acres. That is surrounded by soybean, corn, or wheat fields. We hardly ever go to the back woods except to Bush- hog a small area. They have everything they need.


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## farmerjan (Dec 25, 2019)

Good for you, you might be able to curtail it in your immediate area. It is not a pretty disease.


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## Simpleterrier (Dec 26, 2019)

Nice @farmerjan me and a few guys have been talking lately about what u just wrote. Right now the butcher shops around here sell steaks for around 30$ a lb. And when we sell beef halves most people have 4-6$ a lb in the same quality steaks. So why is that? The butchers market their products? The farmers over produce? I think both what does a farmer do on a good year? Raise more cows what does a farmer do on a bad year try to produce more cows. Same with the milk market. I have a good thing going I can sell beef and pork at live weights and I make enough where the meat in my freezer is around a dollar a pound. But u have to market what u got. So u ask why not raise to beef a year. Or six hogs? Know ur market and don't flood it


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 26, 2019)

MiniSilkys said:


> besides too much sleeping, now everyone has to worry about CWD in deer. We are planning to plant field peas and turnips for the feed on our farm to keep them from leaving the area. Maybe if we can keep them away from the areas where there is CWD then maybe they will be ok. We don't even eat them but still want them healthy.


CWD?  Perhaps we call it something different up here but this doesn’t sound familiar and we have deer everywhere!


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 26, 2019)

farmerjan said:


> What do you consider "costing a fortune" for the half?  Is it that much considering the amount of meat?  I figure that it will cost approx $6.00 lb for the actual meat you get.  That is the average for all the meat, from ground beef to the best steaks.  You aren't going to be saving a whole lot if you don' t eat all the cuts, but the thing is for me knowing where our meat is coming from.  I haven't bought beef in probably 30+ years. Although it is not an "out of pocket" expense like if I were just "buying it".... We do figure in the value of the meat if it were sold.  That is one of the reasons I eat my jersey steers.  The calves aren't worth anything, the steers aren't worth more than $.50-.60 lb at 500+ lbs.,  so they are best for beef.  We have the pasture and one or 2 extras out there eating are not going to make or break us.  If we got into a severe drought time, they would be the first to go to butcher regardless of the size. But to buy a good "beef" animal is more than a jersey.  The one thing about the jerseys, they take a little longer to grow out than a beef, but they also don't have the fat that a beef animal has. There are trade offs.
> 
> A  1200 animal is worth 1.15 lb live weight.  Current prices from the "fat stock" sale last week here locally.  Figure 50% of that is hanging.  Another 50% is actual, in your freezer,  meat.  Now, that is rough estimates.  USDA says that the hanging weight is 60% and another 60% is cut.... but we figure that 50% is good, then anymore than that is a plus.  So 1/4 or 25% of actual live weight is meat.  That makes that steer worth 3.50-4.00 /  lb before you pay the butcher fee which here will run about $250..... or in the neighborhood of close to  $1.00 lb, killed, cut, wrapped and frozen.... that is vacuum  packed.  I don't do any paper wrap anymore because vacuum packed will keep for several years if kept frozen, with no pin holes from moving the frozen packages around in the freezer. So if you get a good 300 lb of actual meat, that is about  $1500.... but if you figure that you are going to pay 4.00 lb for good ground beef, or more, then you are getting nearly the value of the meat in ground beef.  I wouldn't buy cheap  ground beef so would probably spend at least 4-5.00 lb for it.  I have no idea what it is bringing now.  You will get approx 1/4 to 1/3 of your meat in ground beef and stew meat cuts.  Trimmings....  but then you have to figure the difference in what those really nice steaks are worth.  I get NY strips, ribeyes, filets, and then get the backbones to use for bbq like ribs, or soup etc.  All the sirloins..... plus,  I get as many of the bones back that I can.
> Believe me, we are not making a killing on a beef in the freezer.  We actually will do better selling it as a live weight of 1000 lbs or more and let the buyer do all the rest.  Again, you have to figure that it costs us at least $500 (1.50 per day yearly average) per year to keep a beef cow. That's what we need to get out of a weaned calf  JUST TO BREAK EVEN.  Not counting our labor.  It takes 18-24 months to get an animal up to 1000 lbs.  So we have nearly 1000 in that animal just  to get it to that size.  We try to sell  feeders in the 500 lb size but with steers only bringing 1.40 lb at that size, we are getting back about 700 .  Heifers will bring about 1.20,  600. So if you figure that we are making an average 650 a calf, and 500+ is the cost of keeping the momma cow for the year, then we are making 150 per calf per year.  That's not much for our labor.  If we sell 100 feeders that is only 15,000 per year.  Can you live on that, comfortably,  and get ahead?   That is not counting any major equipment breakdowns, or purchases.  That is TOTAL pay for us.... if you figure out how much actual time we put in over the course of the year.... at the average of 40 hrs per week for 52 weeks,  which is ridiculously low, that's less than 8,00 per hour.  Especially since you figure we don't work 5 - 8hour days with weekends off.  We might only "work"  4-5 hours a day in the winter,  but then add in equipment maintenance you are up to at least 50 hours/week in the winter, plus anywhere from 8-14 hour days during the calving/growing/harvesting seasons.  6-7 days a week.  It is figured that farmers in general make about   $3-4 per hour actual labor wages.
> ...


Well..I just meant it’s costing my Dad a fortune to feed my son...instead of my son paying for the meat himself...BUT...now that I am a farmer... I absolutely get the whole aspect of your breakdown of how much work goes into it...and how little profit there is....compared to the work side.  Unfortunately normal people don’t realize the work.  My sister said something to me, and I said...animals don’t know it’s a holiday, or a weekend, etc....

But as I wrote in response to the other thread..I really don’t know what CWD is?  In PA. People in our area pray they canshoot at least one deer to help their family through the year.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 26, 2019)

Mini Horses said:


> Thank you FarmerJan!!
> 
> One of the reasons I don't do cows.  AND I would be a fairly good one to keep a cow & raise a calf per year because I have the pasture to do so.   OR bottle a calf as I have so much extra goat milk to use.   BUT...not doing.  I will raise a lamb or meat goat instead.  My goat meat tastes amazingly like beef, IMO.   But not a beef steak replacement!!   Stews, BBQ, ground, all ok.   I just pony up at a sale for a couple nice NY strips.
> 
> Older I get, the less meat I consume per portion.   Veggie garden needs more attention.


Oh..you mentioned goat milk...once my goats are being milked...could I use their milk for a calf to get it big enough to butcher?


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Dec 26, 2019)

Simpleterrier said:


> Nice @farmerjan me and a few guys have been talking lately about what u just wrote. Right now the butcher shops around here sell steaks for around 30$ a lb. And when we sell beef halves most people have 4-6$ a lb in the same quality steaks. So why is that? The butchers market their products? The farmers over produce? I think both what does a farmer do on a good year? Raise more cows what does a farmer do on a bad year try to produce more cows. Same with the milk market. I have a good thing going I can sell beef and pork at live weights and I make enough where the meat in my freezer is around a dollar a pound. But u have to market what u got. So u ask why not raise to beef a year. Or six hogs? Know ur market and don't flood it


We are raising feeder pigs, mostly because they are easier to maintain...we don’t have to put up near the fencing that we would need for cows.  That’s the main reason my hubby doesn’t want to make the leap...at least $5,000-$6,000 in fencing and we wouldn’t recoup tha5 for at least three years.  But...not sure why we’re watching these auctions if he’s not interested...


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## secuono (Dec 26, 2019)

Hmm, I could see buying them for dog food. 
Should be small enough for you to butcher the little bit of meat off them yourself.


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## thistlebloom (Dec 26, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> But as I wrote in response to the other thread..I really don’t know what CWD is?



CWD stands for chronic wasting disease.




__





						Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) | Prion Diseases | CDC
					






					www.cdc.gov


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## Ron Bequeath (Dec 26, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Got it..so the hubb was right again since we don’t have the milk..he said the replacement would cost wayyy too much, as I’ve done it with other animals.  He can do the butchering..but he said it would be a big waste of time for so little meat..like plucking a duck by hand...Ok, I guess we’ll hold off on cows for now.  My Dad keeps buying half a processed cow for my fitness finatic son..costing him a fortune..I want to raise one for him instead.  Still shooting a deer a deer would would be the best, but none of them have had much luck, since they sit in the camp and sleep...


About 25 years back or so we heard of an true story at the auction and it went like this. There was a pickup with a jersey bull calf in it with a free sign on the calf. When the farmer came out of the auction there where 10 more calves with him. I heard that calves where bringing more now i haven't priced them since. What i did back then was i bought a jersey for $10.00. Brought it home and  since i had two goat does in milk i started him on goats milk. With in a few days he had sours, wouldn't eat and was laxidaysical. I figured sours, keopecyate; not eating fever; laxidaysical, needing electrolytes, gatoraid; put him on this and he started to make a come back. Called the vet and asked him and the vet said if he lasts 2 months come in and I'll give him something that will help him to live. After 2 months  of him nursing off the goats I banded him, had him on dairy feed and started him on pasture. Saved my fifty bucks to the vet and at 18 months we butchered him and I've yearned ever since of raising another quality beef like that. This last 4 months my aussie female looked like pups where on the way. Took her to the vet and found that not only where 7 pups on the way but that mom had lymes. The vet put her on amoxicillin and said the pups may have characteristics like throughing up, diarrhea,  and may be other  messed up things. At the age of 14 days none of the puppies eyes where open. Day 15 they all opened their eyes and hit some dog food so i added buttermilk, yogurt,  raw acv,  and kombucha.  At 12 weeks the pups have all left, healty as puppies should be whenever a bout would show up I'd add probiotics they did great just use of God given knowledge and we can get through just about anything.


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## Ron Bequeath (Dec 26, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Oh..you mentioned goat milk...once my goats are being milked...could I use their milk for a calf to get it big enough to butcher?


Why not, there was an article in dairy goat magizine many years back, can't remember who wrote it now but showed someone with the goat on the milking stand and a calf nursing from the goat. Another thing i found was when i use to make cheese i would give the goat kids replacement and they would get diarrhea.  So since replacer is 13% protein and whey is 13% protein i mixed my whey with the replacer instead of the water the stools firmed up to pellets and the kids had phenomenal weight gain enough to get much more than dog food out of them. I got my calf over 600 pounds he lived till buthered at 18 mo. A jersey.


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## Ron Bequeath (Dec 26, 2019)

secuono said:


> Hmm, I could see buying them for dog food.
> Should be small enough for you to butcher the little bit of meat off them yourself.


If their just young small calves use your wisdom and figure out what their illnes is , club foot tape the foot up till the calf puts enough weight on it to straihhten it out, twigs and popcicle sticks make great spints.  Theres always a way to heal with the smarts we're given snd a prayer and not especially in that order.


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## secuono (Dec 26, 2019)

Ron Bequeath said:


> If their just young small calves use your wisdom and figure out what their illnes is , club foot tape the foot up till the calf puts enough weight on it to straihhten it out, twigs and popcicle sticks make great spints.  Theres always a way to heal with the smarts we're given snd a prayer and not especially in that order.



Sure, if that's what you're after. If you just want cheap meat n bones for a pack of dogs...


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## Ron Bequeath (Dec 26, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> We are raising feeder pigs, mostly because they are easier to maintain...we don’t have to put up near the fencing that we would need for cows.  That’s the main reason my hubby doesn’t want to make the leap...at least $5,000-$6,000 in fencing and we wouldn’t recoup tha5 for at least three years.  But...not sure why we’re watching these auctions if he’s not interested...


One of the other things we need to do is find other products and ways to sell our product. People around me don't like 200 to 250 pounds of meat in the freezer for two, three years so I'm breeding an asian heritage hog cross to meet their wants, all the cuts but not the years in the freezer.


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## farmerjan (Dec 26, 2019)

Simpleterrier said:


> Nice @farmerjan me and a few guys have been talking lately about what u just wrote. Right now the butcher shops around here sell steaks for around 30$ a lb. And when we sell beef halves most people have 4-6$ a lb in the same quality steaks. So why is that? The butchers market their products? The farmers over produce? I think both what does a farmer do on a good year? Raise more cows what does a farmer do on a bad year try to produce more cows. Same with the milk market. I have a good thing going I can sell beef and pork at live weights and I make enough where the meat in my freezer is around a dollar a pound. But u have to market what u got. So u ask why not raise to beef a year. Or six hogs? Know ur market and don't flood it


Part of it is that the steaks are more desired..... and they are "limited" and everyone wants steak, not as much the less tender cuts.  It is some marketing, but for the most part, there are alot of people that don't want roasts or stew meat or very much ground beef. 

 Anyone that I know that sells meat by the lb or the piece, USDA inspected and processed, will tell you that ground beef is always the last to be sold.  Plus, proportionately,  there is alot more ground beef than there are steaks.   Hey, I would love it if hogs could be half bacon, instead of all the other cuts they are.  I am not a big sausage eater, so would love to have the proportion of bacon to be greater than it is.... so I get it,  for people that don't want to get a half with all that ground beef. 

Most of the beef that I put in the freezer, is just the cost of the butchering, and if I sell half then it is basically free.  But if you figure the VALUE of the beef, it is more likely to be $5-8.00 lb.  I try to sell a half or 2 a year although we have a guy who has a small country store, and he has been selling more beef than he thought so has gotten a couple of steers from us that we were going to try to market as beef, and just bought them and put them on grain/feed for 60 days then had them processed at the USDA plant.  We did okay on them and saved the cost of butchering since we didn't need the meat.   Plus he came and picked them up so no trips to town. 
I eat 99.9999% jersey beef.  I have several jersey nurse cows and breed a few AI and always get a bull calf or 2.  I do use some sexed semen, but mostly don't due to the cost.  Plus, I do breed some of them to beef bulls, so those calves are either kept as replacement heifers, or the bulls to make into steers for future beef sales.  

I don't think that saying that beef people over produce in general is totally correct.  Nearly all the farmers I know around here can run a certain number head of cattle.  That is all their land will handle.  We vary some due to what pastures/land we have rented.  Some will increase, but it takes a little longer to increase the number of beef you have  unless you are buying animals.  Then it will be determined by the amount of land/pasture.... or the amount of stored feed you have.  
Dairy farmers can increase their milk production faster since there are many selling out and prices of replacements are way down due to the low milk prices the farmers have been getting.  Yes, they will milk more to try to keep their bills paid, especially the fixed monthly ones.  And they will continue to milk more cows when the prices come up to try to make back some of what they weren't making,  and get bills caught up , and get a little put by for the next downturn in the milk prices.   It has little to do with the "surplus" because the companies that buy the milk are pushing the farmers to get bigger.  They don't want to buy from small farms anymore, and are penalizing them.  The ones that refused to get bigger, and some talked about not wanting to add to the surplus, got it  stuck to them with an increase in hauling fees.... and the bigger dairies are getting a "bonus" if they produce at least a half tanker load of milk for pickup which means getting bigger.   After 30 years  of being a milk tester, and nearly 45 in and around the dairy industry, it is a crime what the milk companies have done and the monopoly they have on the prices and such.           Right now the milk companies are begging farmers to produce more because we are in a deficit area for fluid milk.


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## farmerjan (Dec 26, 2019)

Yes, you can feed goats milk to baby calves.  One of the other milk testers in this area does that.  She starts calves and raises heifers for one of her dairies and she has several goats that she milks for that express purpose.  I have seen where the goats have been trained to get on the stand and the calves can nurse directly off them.  She milks hers then feeds the calves.  I have both milked my cows and fed calves, and gotten calves grafted on the cows.  You do what works best for you.


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## Ron Bequeath (Dec 26, 2019)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Oh..you mentioned goat milk...once my goats are being milked...could I use their milk for a calf to get it big enough to butcher?


Why not? A while back 25 years in the dairy goat journal there was an article where the auther of the article was raising a calf or calves from the auction and showed a picture of a goat on a milk stand and a calf nursing from the goat. Once its weaned then its put on grain and pasture. And raised just like any other beef animal til its between 18 to 24 months. Matter of fact when i was making cheese from my milk i would take the kids and put them on replacer, they would always get diarrhea.  So since whey is 13% protein and replacer of atleast 13% protein instead of using water i mixed the whey with the reolacer and the kids stool firmed ul and the made weight gain faster.


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## Ron Bequeath (Dec 26, 2019)

secuono said:


> Sure, if that's what you're after. If you just want cheap meat n bones for a pack of dogs...


Sorry i guess you havent read more of my posts. I have raised unwanted calfs to 600 or 750 pounds. Just off of goats milk, keopectate, Gatorade, aspirin. And never used anything from a vet. Once they where weaned they where turned out on pasture and supplimented good ground grain and boy the cuts where great. Ate the best meat even after the steaks where gone and I'd handle any of those burgers the taste was scrumptious. The problem with to many people is they like to leave their footpri ts all over creatio . I believe in just the opposite, the smaller the footprint the more you consume and the less waste there is. Of course i have had loss and death nut that gets composted or consumed but other partakers on my farmette. We try to waste nothing even to the point of composting humanure and liquids. You aught to read the book Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins one of the best world acclaimed texts on the subject. Everything is recycled,  butchered, shared,  and used in all the most useable methods possible. Doesn't always work out but i make a pretty good stab at it.


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## secuono (Dec 27, 2019)

Ron Bequeath said:


> Sorry i guess you havent read more of my posts. I have raised unwanted calfs to 600 or 750 pounds. Just off of goats milk, keopectate, Gatorade, aspirin. And never used anything from a vet. Once they where weaned they where turned out on pasture and supplimented good ground grain and boy the cuts where great. Ate the best meat even after the steaks where gone and I'd handle any of those burgers the taste was scrumptious. The problem with to many people is they like to leave their footpri ts all over creatio . I believe in just the opposite, the smaller the footprint the more you consume and the less waste there is. Of course i have had loss and death nut that gets composted or consumed but other partakers on my farmette. We try to waste nothing even to the point of composting humanure and liquids. You aught to read the book Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins one of the best world acclaimed texts on the subject. Everything is recycled,  butchered, shared,  and used in all the most useable methods possible. Doesn't always work out but i make a pretty good stab at it.



?
I'm, originally, replying to OP, not you. So, no, I didn't read any of your posts.
I'm not particularly for or against what you do, if it works for you, more power to ya.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 2, 2020)

I was just curious why on earth these ani were being sold so cheap...and how much it would cost...but how you would even go about raising a week old chalk to be big enough to butcher at a realistic size...600lbs?


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## Ron Bequeath (Jan 2, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I was just curious why on earth these ani were being sold so cheap...and how much it would cost...but how you would even go about raising a week old chalk to be big enough to butcher at a realistic size...600lbs?


Of course it takes 18 to 20 months, but I figure if you have an extra teat on that cow or an extra goat in milk and some sort of pasture or a source of good hay it can be done.  In 18 months, I butchered a jersey steer and the 300 lbs of marbled meat we got from it was not only tasty but great to the last cut, even the hamburger was great on the barbecue bun, in chili, spaghetti, strohanoff, or hm pizza rolls. Yes Jersey fat is yellow but that just means there's more carotene in it. Raise one and enjoy.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 3, 2020)

Ohhh, ok, we were thinking milk cows didn’t taste as good..thanks for the tip!


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## Xerocles (Jan 3, 2020)

May I jump in here with a closely related question? I have ZERO knowledge about this subject, so try to not make fun of me if this is total nonsense. Just thoughts brought on from reading this thread.
First, $1 calf. Is that $1 total purchase price or $1/lb? Assuming it means $1 total price. If not, don't even bother reading the rest of this.
So, let's say I go on a "bad" buying day and I buy a calf @$5. Research shows that a newborn holstein weighs approx. 80lbs. So, this calf weighs 80lb. Assume "In the freezer" meat is only 25% of live weight (I have no idea what % would be for a calf so young would be, so I hope I'm guessing low). $5/80lbs X .25= $.25/lb. 
Same day I go hunting and bag a small doe @ 80 lbs. After figuring licenses, ammunition (forget the rifle, that's infrastructure) etc., I have more than .25/lb in that deer.
I can't imagine that dressing/processing an 80lb calf would be significantly more difficult than an 80lb deer.
Now I realize I'm not getting any 32oz. porterhouse from an 80lb calf, but I'm not routinely BUYING any 32oz porterhouse either.
If I self process, I see very little difference in buying a days old dairy calf for immediate butchering, as opposed to a deer....except I don't lose sleep, freeze my butt off in a tree stand, and potentially coming home empty handed.
I'm sure you'll be happy to tell me (I hope). What am I missing here? Veal for cheaper than raising chicken or rabbit, with at least slightly bigger "cuts" of meat. And "zero"  invested in caring for, feeding,  worry, or infrastructure costs.


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## Beekissed (Jan 3, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> May I jump in here with a closely related question? I have ZERO knowledge about this subject, so try to not make fun of me if this is total nonsense. Just thoughts brought on from reading this thread.
> First, $1 calf. Is that $1 total purchase price or $1/lb? Assuming it means $1 total price. If not, don't even bother reading the rest of this.
> So, let's say I go on a "bad" buying day and I buy a calf @$5. Research shows that a newborn holstein weighs approx. 80lbs. So, this calf weighs 80lb. Assume "In the freezer" meat is only 25% of live weight (I have no idea what % would be for a calf so young would be, so I hope I'm guessing low). $5/80lbs X .25= $.25/lb.
> Same day I go hunting and bag a small doe @ 80 lbs. After figuring licenses, ammunition (forget the rifle, that's infrastructure) etc., I have more than .25/lb in that deer.
> ...



The thing you are missing about that age is they virtually have NO MEAT on them.   Most of their wt is in bone and organs.  Even the meat they have has absolutely no flavor...it's pale, no texture that's pleasant, etc.   Supposedly that's the most desired meat to folks who love "white" veal, but to me it looks like it has zero nutrition and taste.  No one could PAY me to eat that stuff.  

I butchered a 6 mo. old calf once that just wasn't progressing in meat development like I would have wanted....mainly butchered it to make canned food for an aging dog.  The meat was so pale and unappetizing looking, not at all like a deer of similar size, that I wouldn't have eaten it anyway.   Ick.  Canned it up for the dog.   Most of the wt. it had was in bone.  

Not even comparable to a deer of similar size and wt.   You'd have to keep it for a lot longer than veal age to get something similar.  






						Facts on Veal Calves
					






					www.hsvma.org


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## Xerocles (Jan 3, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> The thing you are missing about that age is they virtually have NO MEAT on them.   Most of their wt is in bone and organs.  Even the meat they have has absolutely no flavor...it's pale, no texture that's pleasant, etc.


That's why I was asking. This is not something I had ever thought about, before this thread, and was only seeing it from "meat is meat" perspective. But I see what you are saying. Thanks for explaining, and not making fun.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 3, 2020)

Nobody here makes fun of anyone for asking a question ....but some of us do tease each other lol


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## Beekissed (Jan 3, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> That's why I was asking. This is not something I had ever thought about, before this thread, and was only seeing it from "meat is meat" perspective. But I see what you are saying. Thanks for explaining, and not making fun.



Make fun?   No way!      We like learning as much as the next person, so questions are how we learn.


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## Xerocles (Jan 3, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Make fun?   No way!      We like learning as much as the next person, so questions are how we learn.


I should just shut up right now, cause I don't want to start any battles. My experience here has been 100% good (thanks everyone) even when ppl point out I'm wrong. That's why I'm here. To get it right. But, I had put so little thought into this question I felt like I was asking "thermos..it keeps hot things hot and cold things cold....but how does it know the difference". And I had already seen one response IN THIS THREAD from a 10 yr member to a 2 yr member that was kinda condescending. So I figured I might be laughed out of the room for asking such a ridiculous question.
I love you all, and so far no one has said anything to me to hurt my feelings. I just wanted everyone to know that that particular question wasn't something I was seriously considering. Just pondering out loud.


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## farmerjan (Jan 3, 2020)

@Beekissed  has it right about the weight on a calf being mostly all bone and organs and hide.  You will not get 10 lbs total of meat off a baby calf.  The only "meat" available is on the hindquarters and a very little on the shoulders.  It is all just the muscle that the calf is born with.   Not worth the time to kill and skin and try to get what little there is.
That meat is "white" for the reason that there is no iron in the calf's system when the fetus is developing.  One of the reasons that true veal is so white.  There is no iron basically in milk either.  A true veal calf is strictly milk fed.  ANY roughage, even straw, that they might eat, will cause the body to digest it and they will extract any nutrition/minerals/vitamins/etc. out of it and the meat will start to "pink up".  
I am not a fan of the "white veal".  It basically means that the calf is iron deficient.  They can and do grow on strictly milk, for a few months at most,  but if you ever notice, any baby will start to try all sorts of other foods from a very young age.  Lots of reasons for that, but one is the body is wanting more than what the milk gives it.  I have seen calves as young as 2 weeks starting to "eat" some grass or some hay.  Mimicking their mothers but also natural instinct to start eating things that their bodies require.


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## Ron Bequeath (Jan 3, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> May I jump in here with a closely related question? I have ZERO knowledge about this subject, so try to not make fun of me if this is total nonsense. Just thoughts brought on from reading this thread.
> First, $1 calf. Is that $1 total purchase price or $1/lb? Assuming it means $1 total price. If not, don't even bother reading the rest of this.
> So, let's say I go on a "bad" buying day and I buy a calf @$5. Research shows that a newborn holstein weighs approx. 80lbs. So, this calf weighs 80lb. Assume "In the freezer" meat is only 25% of live weight (I have no idea what % would be for a calf so young would be, so I hope I'm guessing low). $5/80lbs X .25= $.25/lb.
> Same day I go hunting and bag a small doe @ 80 lbs. After figuring licenses, ammunition (forget the rifle, that's infrastructure) etc., I have more than .25/lb in that deer.
> ...


Your thinking is right and another fellow who said to use them for dog food. Heres the thing. Female  cattle(dairy) produce milk. Male dairy cattle can breed as an adult over 40+ females, if using artificial insemiation that bull can breed 1000s. What do you do with the rest of the bull calves? Can't tie them in the yard like a dog. Different breeds have different characteristics. Holstein are bigger they calves grow bigger sometimes reaching 1000+ pounds at 18 months. Maybe 150 in 58 days, good for veal. Jersey  on the other hand won't grow that big or that quick. So the farmers have to get rid of them or do something they can't get milk out of. Since the conglomerates (Walmart for one) drive the farmers out of the business there's no need for the bull calves they either sell them cheap, shot them, or give them away. A lot of people with a little effort could take that calf and a source of milk could give it the start it needs and with good grass some grain and a good life in 18 to 20 months have an animal that could bring them 300 lbs cut and wrapped at a very affordable price. I could go into costs, feed and housing but this is an answer i hope that throws some light on the subject. Farmers looking for a market for their milk might welcome a group of folks buying it at slightly below wholesale for individuals wanting veal and table beef and its good tasting meat. Just like asian heritage hogs (potbelly pigs).


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## Ron Bequeath (Jan 3, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> @Beekissed  has it right about the weight on a calf being mostly all bone and organs and hide.  You will not get 10 lbs total of meat off a baby calf.  The only "meat" available is on the hindquarters and a very little on the shoulders.  It is all just the muscle that the calf is born with.   Not worth the time to kill and skin and try to get what little there is.
> That meat is "white" for the reason that there is no iron in the calf's system when the fetus is developing.  One of the reasons that true veal is so white.  There is no iron basically in milk either.  A true veal calf is strictly milk fed.  ANY roughage, even straw, that they might eat, will cause the body to digest it and they will extract any nutrition/minerals/vitamins/etc. out of it and the meat will start to "pink up".
> I am not a fan of the "white veal".  It basically means that the calf is iron deficient.  They can and do grow on strictly milk, for a few months at most,  but if you ever notice, any baby will start to try all sorts of other foods from a very young age.  Lots of reasons for that, but one is the body is wanting more than what the milk gives it.  I have seen calves as young as 2 weeks starting to "eat" some grass or some hay.  Mimicking their mothers but also natural instinct to start eating things that their bodies require.


How about Rosey veal? Taste better, the calves have a better life and its a win win for all.


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## Beekissed (Jan 3, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> And I had already seen one response IN THIS THREAD from a 10 yr member to a 2 yr member that was kinda condescending. So I figured I might be laughed out of the room for asking such a ridiculous question.



You get that sometimes.   Sometimes it's just comes off that way due to not being worded right or they aren't thinking about how it sounds(usually my difficulty) and sometimes you find the same folks having the same kind of responses....and that's when the handy dandy "ignore" option comes into good use.    

Mostly here you have a really good group of people wanting to help one another grow and that's a nice thing.  Same with over on TEG....really nice family over there.


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## farmerjan (Jan 3, 2020)

There are contracts that farmers sign with the companies they sell their milk to and it can , and HAS, gotten into some difficult situations for the farmers to "sell their milk" to someone else for less.  Had a dairy here that was making some cheese.  They had a contract to sell the fluid milk to a milk co-op.  They had to divert the milk BEFORE it went into the bulk tank, in order to comply with the contract to the milk company, and still make cheese.   There are too many gray areas that can get a commercial farmer shut down, and if he loses his milk contract, then now a days he will not find another company to pick him up like it used to be.  All it takes is someone innocently saying oh, I buy my milk from so and so for xxx amount to feed my calves/pigs/whatever.... and it gets to the wrong person and a farmer that is certified to sell raw grade A milk for pasteurization can lose his milk permit.  And then if nothing ever goes wrong, the person buying the milk is again putting out money for feeding a calf.

You say that a person can take a calf, a source of milk, and then some feed and grass and get them to say 18 months and have some good beef, for a reasonable price.   Have you ever sat and actually figured out the true cost of raising an animal to slaughter size?  A source of milk, say another cow, or some goats, still costs  money.  You have to feed the animal producing the milk.  Grain for a calf isn't cheap, and the value of the pasture grass is still a cost.  Maybe not exactly an "out of the pocket" direct cost.... but the value of it.  There is hay cost for at least one winter.  
I raised bottle calves for years.  As many as 100 a year.  Got my holstein bull calves off farms because I learned early on that sale barn calves were a 50/50 at best, chance of survival.  Mostly because the farmers would be getting them shipped off as soon as possible.  Many do not get the colostrum they need.  Some farmers are very good about taking care of all their calves.... bulls and heifers until the bulls are sold.  I have gone every route there is.  Milk replacer, milking my own cows, grafting them on nurse cows.  Every way there is but goats, and no matter the source of milk, it costs money to get the milk. 
There used to be a market for holstein beef, but it is dwindling.  They take longer to finish, and they eat a greater amount and for longer to get them to slaughter size.  They do grade out nicely so the meat is good.  
If you took every cost into consideration, and I mean just the actual out of pocket costs, and were totally honest with yourself about it, it would cost you more than you realize to get that animal to slaughter weight.  
A person can raise a calf up for meat and still get good beef for less than maybe he can buy it for.  But, you are not putting a value on their time.  Ask anyone on here what they sell their lambs for, and they are making a little bit.  But it is not enough to make a living off of. And none of them have put a value on their time because they enjoy doing it.  But a person that has a normal, busy life, can find that raising an animal is sometimes too time consuming, or demanding, or just too costly for the return.  And a farmer has to put some value on his time because he is expending his own time and energy to do the work.  

Our figures of costing and average of 1.50 /day to keep a beef cow is low by most state standards.  And those beef cows do not get grain to make them produce milk.  That is figuring in the value of the land and the grass and the hay.  
I am not saying not to raise these calves.  But there is more money tied up in them than most people realize.  It is because you are putting the money out in small increments.....$20 for a bag or two of grain here, $40 for a roll of hay there, $25 for a bag of mineral, $6-7 for a block of salt,  and then next thing you know you have a couple hundred dollars spent and you didn't feel it because it was all not out of the pocket in one big glug.   Let one get sick, even gatorade and kaopectate costs money.  

Not putting a value on the grass they eat, true out of pocket expenses will creep up fast.  And holsteins do not do well on straight grass until they are well over 600 lbs.  The body physiology requires a diet with more protein, higher concentrates because they have been bred that way.  They don't grow on just grass and hay.  They need more to grow or they just don't do good.  I have seen way too many "hay belly" calves from people that think they can raise them cheap.  They are not thrifty, and they never grow right after that. 

So say someone would get some calves to use the "surplus milk" that their goats are making.  It costs money for that milk through the cost of what grain the goats get fed.  Time to milk the goat.  But if you truly discounted that, then raising a calf for a few months would be a good return on the milk.  Again, there is some grain for the calf, plus some good quality hay.  Good pasture will not sustain a younger calf, but by the time they hit 5-600 lbs, it can supply most of their nutritional needs.  GOOD PASTURE..... to keep them gaining and growing.  For how many months do you have that good pasture?   To keep pasture growing and vegetative, it has to be grazed then given a rest, to regrow, then to be grazed again.   The weather will play a big part too.  If the grass is not enough then there is hay costs.   Time/money to go get it or costs to get it delivered.  There are all these little things.  

I am a big proponent of raising your own beef/meat.  Haven't bought beef in probably 40 years.  The biggest cost for me is the slaughter/processing costs because that is what I see directly.  BUT you don't raise them for nothing.  If you have goats making more milk than you can use, a great way to utilize the surplus.  If you have pasture that doesn't get grazed down, and you have to bush hog off, then a more economical way to get it "cut" and go into an animal for gain rather than just filling a gas/diesel tank to mow it off..... The taste of home raised beef is the best and the satisfaction of knowing that you gave the animal a good life is something you cannot measure.  Just realize that it is not cheap meat.


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## Ron Bequeath (Jan 3, 2020)

Farmerjan, lot of good points.  And in this day and age where we have someone building a chicken run putting two wheels on it and calling it a chicken tractor because its a "new idea" and making compost in "a month" and this new way of "raising crops". Is all wonderful and I'm very glad to see such and interest in farming the "good earth way". But I'm sorry. This stuff isn't new folks. I'm 68 years old not old buy many standards, but old by some. But the youngest male in my clan. And i said clan, something else that we've forgotten. There was a time when people worked together not just giving advice but rotating crops, rotating pastures "the new ag", shocking grain, threshing and shocking grain and corn. Hauling manure, using corn fodder, mangels, baling hay or just putting it up with a field crew and a barnyard crew. Fatting beef off of the land giving them non gmo healthy food. Leaving little footprints not giant ones. Pulling a bushel of weeds per hog and fattening them up with just the weeds and 3 ears of corn per hog per day. And then,,, when the steer reached that 18 months that hog reached 5 to 7 months the group was invited to come together and kill, dress and butcher the meat for the families. And it just wasn't just one piggy or one 4H steer it may be 3, 4, or 5 hogs,  or a big 1800 lb bull or two steers.  It took all day and when you saw the bed at night you crashed and the next morning you did the same routines all over again. I not angery at you or anyone else I'm just saying i was raised that way. Taught by a father, uncles, and grandfather who cared an would select their seed from a crib of corn not go to a farmers feed mill and pay hundreds for 50 pounds of seed. Hand select the ears of corn that would reach 12 inches and big enough to make a good stuffing pipe. We've lost a lot of it and its slipping by fast and the last of that generation is watching to see what your generation is going to do. Reinvent the wheel? Yes i raise bull calves on goat and left over cows milk. But you guys sound like you do it its whole life.  Just a few weeks. And i hear every one saying what do you do with the byproduct whey, you feed it to the calf, or pig, or put it on your plants. So much waste now days.  Crop rotation, something i barely ever hear anyone talk about these days, was the excepted and kept down the bug population, threshing not only gave you straw and grain but brought the weed seed in from the fields and at 5 it was my job to gather it up in bags to feed the chickens along with their grain all winter. We didn't see the weeds and distructive bugs back then like we do now. Why because just like the farmer behind me, who has planted the same crop for the last 15 years in the same spot, wonders why he can't get a good crop and has to pour on gallons and gallons of POIXON every year so his 5, 6, or 8 inch ears of corn can make it. In the year 2018 after we talked, he made a slight change with green mulching his corn field and had positive results (not what they could have been, if he had practiced this method) and made the statement to me, "they never taught us this in college". Gee well how could they, first, half of them haven't had any real farm experience, and the big seed, fertilizer, and agri businesses wouldn't let them and what kid listens to dad, grandpa or other oldsters when they " big ag" must surely know. They have all the money. And i won't even want to touch that. You can read. Yes i raise a calf on keopectate that had been in the medicine cabinet for longer than I cared to guess.  I used aspirin because i bought a cheap bottle, 150 for a dollar, and being an athletic coach i had gatoraid around, so the cost of all of that wasnt much over 5.00 and i only did it long enough until the animal started taking nourishment on its own. 3 or 4 days 8 teaspoons of keopectate,  8 aspirins,  two bottles of gatoraide so the cost was probably 5.00 at the most, and my point of sharing that was just as I've heard others say that when in a crisis try what you have on hand and if it works more power to you. But try. Yes i gave it grain with whey which i ground in my old blender mixed oatmeal and creme of wheat with extra goats milk that was probably headed for the pigs. And once the animal had a start it was grained  and on grass and wasn't  eating a half a bale of hay till probably it was 15 month old. But then again. My point was these calves are worth raising for something other than dog food with a little patients. Let's get rid of the factory mentality that if its not big and robust its not worth keeping to raise but could probably feed a family of 5 quiet well. Yes i raised it on grain and hay we raised ourselves. Yes, we butchered, cut wrapped and froze it ourselves. But just like a man mowing his lawn,  he can't take that off his taxes, work you do on your own farm (farmette) is work, quit trying to give it a price unless you have an army of accountants. And where did the hobby go anyway when we have to account for every dime, nickle, and penny. We worked all our summer long and yes a lot of our friends where at the pool, baseball, basketball courts. At the end of summer my uncle would call us all over and give us $25.00 and thanked us for our help over the summer. Do i hold that against him, you bet I don't because we where doing it for the family, the clan, our family friends. And now I'll dry my eyes. "For if you take nothing with you to heaven but memories make them good ones." A. K. Bequeath


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## Simpleterrier (Jan 3, 2020)

Me and the wife were just talking about this we couldn't afford to eat meat like we do if we didn't raise it ourselves. We go threw half a beef and a hog a year we give a little away. But we eat the majority of it. We can't count our time. My time after work is my time. What I do for me is free. What I do for my friends is free. If u are trying to add to your income then that's different. At the end of the year we end up with beef and pork in the freezer for our labor and around a dollar a pound. I wouldn't be able to eat Ribeyes and pork the steaks unless I raise them my self. I mostly get Holstein or Holstein cross weaned calves cost me around 200 for one. But my favorite so far was a Norwegian red steer. Best tasting animal I have raised. So if I could get a calf for 10 and add milk replacer to that I would be ahead of what I do now. But a weaned calf for me has been easier.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 4, 2020)

Ok,  ew question...we have a dear friend who wants to lease land off of use to put his two cows.  He then wants to help us learn the ropes of raising our own.  BUT...he’s a bit of a pain in the neck...his equipment is junky, and my hubby doesn’t want it junking up our land...and he’s been kicked out of places before.  So, do we give him a chance?  Or will this end badly?  If not...how do we say no?  Chris is better at this stuff than me...I cant say no to anyone...so, Tim talks to me about his ideas...putting me on the spot.  Between a rock and a hard place?  But, I would love to raise some cows!!!


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 4, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Ok,  ew question...we have a dear friend who wants to lease land off of use to put his two cows.  He then wants to help us learn the ropes of raising our own.  BUT...he’s a bit of a pain in the neck...his equipment is junky, and my hubby doesn’t want it junking up our land...and he’s been kicked out of places before.  So, do we give him a chance?  Or will this end badly?  If not...how do we say no?  Chris is better at this stuff than me...I cant say no to anyone...so, Tim talks to me about his ideas...putting me on the spot.  Between a rock and a hard place?  But, I would love to raise some cows!!!



You already know his history  with other leases that have ended poorly,  just tell him you have other plans for the land use. Most anything that you need to learn about raising your own cattle can be found through the members here...why ruin a friendship with a "dear friend"  that can be "a bit of a pain in the neck"? ..guess you have to decide which is more of value to you and Chris...
Not a position I would want to be in, good luck with your decision


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## Xerocles (Jan 4, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Ok,  ew question...we have a dear friend who wants to lease land off of use to put his two cows.  He then wants to help us learn the ropes of raising our own.  BUT...he’s a bit of a pain in the neck...his equipment is junky, and my hubby doesn’t want it junking up our land...and he’s been kicked out of places before.  So, do we give him a chance?  Or will this end badly?  If not...how do we say no?  Chris is better at this stuff than me...I cant say no to anyone...so, Tim talks to me about his ideas...putting me on the spot.  Between a rock and a hard place?  But, I would love to raise some cows!!!


NO!


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## Grant (Jan 4, 2020)

I wouldn’t go with a known problem.  I did a quick search in SC on CL and found this. 





						JERSEY NURSE COW
					

Jersey nurse cow that will take any calf. Good in all 4 quarters. She has a black baldie heifer calf by her side right now that can come with her. Calf is about 3 weeks old. Cow is approximately 5yrs



					greenville.craigslist.org
				



If you want to make a go of bottle calves I would try this and your goats milk.  You will HAVE to have a source of frozen colostrum and make sure every new calf gets a dose of it.   Most dairies in the area are a source and it freezes well.


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## Xerocles (Jan 4, 2020)

Grant said:


> I wouldn’t go with a known problem.  I did a quick search in SC on CL and found this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 @Duckfarmerpa1 YES! YOU SHOULD JUMP ON THIS PARTICULAR ONE! As it's only about 20 miles up the road from me, when you pick her up, you could stop by for a visit and teach me about rabbits, first hand.


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## Baymule (Jan 4, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Ok,  ew question...we have a dear friend who wants to lease land off of use to put his two cows.  He then wants to help us learn the ropes of raising our own.  BUT...he’s a bit of a pain in the neck...his equipment is junky, and my hubby doesn’t want it junking up our land...and he’s been kicked out of places before.  So, do we give him a chance?  Or will this end badly?  If not...how do we say no?  Chris is better at this stuff than me...I cant say no to anyone...so, Tim talks to me about his ideas...putting me on the spot.  Between a rock and a hard place?  But, I would love to raise some cows!!!


This sounds like a great way to ruin a friendship! I wouldn't touch this deal with a 10' pole. Been kicked out of places before? A pain in the neck and his stuff is junky? Why would you do this to yourself? Get some backbone. Being a nice person doesn't mean that you have to be a door mat and smile like you like it when you really don't.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 4, 2020)

Ron Bequeath said:


> "For if you take nothing with you to heaven but memories make them good ones." A. K. Bequeath



  You may be one of few on the forum who still have "family/clan" who do & participate in the events of self provision that you describe but, not the only one who has lived with it.

I watched my grands make hay stacks, helped butcher, cut wood with a crosscut, used the outhouse, bucketed water from the well, washed clothes on a washboard, with 2 tubs of water,  got feed from the corncrib, dug potatoes in the snow, canned from the garden -- on a wood burning stove -- and they plowed by horse.   MY memories are great.  But, the difference between then and now make changes happen.

My tractor is adored.  The canning stove is electric and the water runs by a pump.  There are indoor bathrooms and electric lights, not oil lamps.   LOL    But my roots are deep, so I still can, make soap, raise chickens and goats -- whom I milk, then make cheese, yogurt, butter, etc.  Yes, excess is fed to chickens or a pig, if one is a resident. I manage to get some feed grown for the animals.  

I love you're memories.   I treasure my own.  There are people out there who could not ever imagine what our ancestors did.   I loved the cellar dug into the hill behind the house.   Yeah.....primitive but, beautiful.  Life today does not support most of the lifestyles of years back.   You are right,  I laugh at some of the "new ideas" that were just everyday back then.


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## Grant (Jan 4, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> @Duckfarmerpa1 YES! YOU SHOULD JUMP ON THIS PARTICULAR ONE! As it's only about 20 miles up the road from me, when you pick her up, you could stop by for a visit and teach me about rabbits, first hand.


Just saw I noted your location not the OP. 😆


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## Xerocles (Jan 4, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> I love you're memories.   I treasure my own.  There are people out there who could not ever imagine what our ancestors did.   I loved the cellar dug into the hill behind the house.   Yeah.....primitive but, beautiful.  Life today does not support most of the lifestyles of years back.   You are right,  I laugh at some of the "new ideas" that were just everyday back then.


AMEN! I too remember most of that. Still shiver when I think of the outhouse in the winter. I say the "good ole days" are tomorrow.


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## Ron Bequeath (Jan 4, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> You may be one of few on the forum who still have "family/clan" who do & participate in the events of self provision that you describe but, not the only one who has lived with it.
> 
> I watched my grands make hay stacks, helped butcher, cut wood with a crosscut, used the outhouse, bucketed water from the well, washed clothes on a washboard, with 2 tubs of water,  got feed from the corncrib, dug potatoes in the snow, canned from the garden -- on a wood burning stove -- and they plowed by horse.   MY memories are great.  But, the difference between then and now make changes happen.
> 
> ...


Mini horses, glad to meet you. It sure is nice to know your not alone in the world. As i lounge here beside my oil lamp, contemplating how I'll get the water from the lake quarter of a mile down the road to the stock, since i just got a pic line. No i already know how because we've been there and are doing that.  I at 68 still canand do ferment sauerkraut,  kimchi, tempa, raw acv, kombocha, pickles, make cheese, hard apple cider. Dry and smoke my meats, veggies, fruits. Cast candles, and make soap. While the local government was put in a sewer line they wrecked some farm equipment, killed some maple trees, poisoned my well, and ruined some pasture. But don't get me started on the outhouses and human footprint, just read the book Humanure Handbook by Joe Jenkins. But life goes on. I'll get through this but yes it can be done now a days. I now have my nat gas back up, my new (used) 3.5 kw generator is almost ready to go on line. And instead of only having one working pump, after the well is shocked, generator running, and replumbing completed I'll have 2 sources of well water plus that catchment system i was working on. Something that is bothering me a little is the fact that so many of this new generation although they are interested in homesteading, farming, I never hear any cautions, warnings. I'm not trying the scare anyone but its important to know what your getting into when you start raising livestock. My grandma went through life with a stub for her first finger and a crooked finger for the second one, but boy could she crochet, an accident from fatm eqipment when she was 8. I have raised a dozen cows, steers and calves of all sizes. Sheep, goats, dogs, chickens, ducks, geese, rabbits, guinaes, fish, cats and even sold mice, the white kind. Never the brown kind. Not. But we need to realize that we can never really turn our backs on our animals. I have scars when our most trusted mare out of the blue just up and took a chunk out of my side, turned around and had a cow lift me right off the ground, standing between my sheep and goats my suffolk ram nailed me in the thigh at full thrust, i watch a rabbit bite the back of a man's hand and hold on for 3 mins, not that he didn't deserve it, went to pick up a cat that I was caring for for my sister and ended up in the hospital for a week with cat scratch fever, been flogged by my roosters and hens leaving blood blisters, and seen children had the same, been bit by the neighbors dog, saw a bull decide that he wasn't going to walk the way he should and drag my uncle under a rock sled. Have seen at butcher time, my uncle who had many times put a big animal down pull the trigger and have the bull just stand there and look at him. Although I'm here lounging on my bed my aussie laying at my side, can i trust him. I hope i can. But what if when i had my back turned he got stung and had an allergic reaction or a punk kid pinged him with a pellet gun and in his pain he reacts. When my heifer gets spooked and gallops up the road pulling a 20 foot chain with a cement block tied to it in mid air right in my direction. Yes I've given a lot of examples. All actual.  But although animals, farming, agriculture is very, very, very enjoyable it can also be dangerous. Your dealing with 900+ lb cattle and horses, 2 to 400 lbs sheep and goats, 3 to 600+ lb hogs,  poultry who can be fire balls. Folks be careful and never totally trust an animal, even if you raised that sweet little thing from day one and it wouldn't ever hurt you. Then why in nature do animals not get along with each other all the time. Why in life do humans not always get along with each other. We have our bad days and so do they. Oh ya and i do plant non gmo corn, soy, wheat, oats, mangels, milo and sorgham, ten types of heirloom beans, many vegetables, chia, quinoa,  amaranth, and my herbs and spices and also cultivate and harvest many wild plants, so i can keep myself busy. One thing I'm trying to do is teach the present generation how we use to do things. Had a young man and his brother and his 9 year old son come and after he raised 25 chickens helped him butcher them. Helped my daughter butcher a deer, raised a few hogs with a 20 year old man and butchered them. Not only do we have information that is helpful to them but we also can teach them some of the techniques we learned as youngsters.  And I still enjoy my corn bread and apple pie done in the dutch oven since i don't have a modern one yet. Clan and community.


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## Nifty (Jan 23, 2020)

What a fun thread! Adding it to the homepage!


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