# ~Livinwright Farm's kidding thread~ 2 preggers does... hopefully :)



## Livinwright Farm

Okay, so the time is really starting to draw near for Momma, Maude, & precious little Cali. I think it is time to begin discussing my girls now. 

Momma(Nigerian): roughly 3 yrs old. Bred to Marly, though sadly it could have been her son Pup, as he did attempt twice. She is due to kid around March 9th.  Momma was forced to wean Cali roughly a month ago, and has yet to start forming her udder again. She gave birth to twins(1 buckling, 1 doeling) with her first kidding.

Cali(Nigi-Pyg):  7 months old on March 3rd. Bred to either Marly(preferable) or Pup(her twin, & hopefully not successful). She is due to kid around March 9th. I am able to now get my thumb and index finger to "meet" under her tail... (ligs softened, correct?). She has yet to start really forming her udder. She is a twin, and hopefully will have 2 small twins herself... hopefully it would be easier on her than 1 large size kid.

Maude(Nigerian): roughly 3 yrs old. Bred to Marly on Thanksgiving. She is due to kid around April 21st. Gave birth to a single buckling her first kidding. Hoping for twins this time, espescially given her girth. She has also yet to form her udder. Hoping for twins this pregnancy, she gives birth to kids with wattles!! SO cute!


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## Dreaming Of Goats

I'm joining ANOTHER thread!!!! LOL


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## BellLisaMo

Cant wait to read up on this!


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## PattySh

Hope you have easy deliveries all around especially for the little one. Sasha's doelings - one wattles - one without.  Wattles are cute!  Sparkle (still holding strong  tho uncomfortable) can also have kids with wattles.


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## elevan

Yay! It's finally your turn to start waiting and pacing and waiting and pacing  

Good luck to you and all does involved!


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## PattySh

Sparkle kidded tonight one large doeling no wattles. Tag your it!!!!


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## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Sparkle kidded tonight one large doeling no wattles. Tag your it!!!!


"Hahahahaha, hahaha, haha..."


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## Livinwright Farm

Cali's ligs are almost completely gone(as in, I can just barely find them if I REALLY search for them) and her barrel has dropped as much as her little body will allow. She still has no udder to speak of... hoping she starts building it soon.
Looks like it will be sooner than March 9th... but then again, she may have heard about "the doe code". Still hoping for small twins, in hopes she can pass them individually easier than she could a larger kid.


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## elevan

Hoping for an easy delivery for little Cali


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## PattySh

I hope Cali has an easy time.


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## helmstead




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## Livinwright Farm

no goo yet.... this is a good thing! I have to do shopping, an hour's drive one way, away today... it would be bad if she had them while I was gone, as I need to be here for any potential problems(espescially where she is SO young).


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## Livinwright Farm

Also, I have NO livestock vet within a 1.5 hr's drive from me... so I *have* to be the vet.  
Wish one would come back into the area, espescially since this county is a farming & 4H county.


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## Livinwright Farm

Thank you for the well wishes... Cali & *I* appreciate it!  I felt her itty bitty udder tonight and it feels like she has gone from nothing to little kiwi sized bulges above each teat.... Still no gooing, but her vulva is lengthening.
I am *SO* incredibly nervous about her kidding.... I just pray that I am here & awake when she goes into labor.  
I can't find sterile gloves anywhere! I have gone to Rite Aid, Wal~Mart, Hannaford, Job Lot, Market Basket... nothing.. nothing... nothing.  
If I have to go in & reposition a kid, is it at all acceptable that I just use the betadine scrub and then do what needs to be done without gloves??


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## Emmetts Dairy

Tractor supply should carry them??  Any feed stores around??  They should have em.  You can also call a small animal vet..they would have them. You would just need to ask if they would be nice enough to let you buy a box off them.  Tell em your situation?? They may help.  

You probally could get away with no gloves and a good scrub??? Im sure its been done.  There was a day where we never had sterile gloves and people still assisted goats.   But I would try to get the gloves for sure.  You just dont wannt add any bacteria whatsoever in her womb.  I would keep searching.

Good luck...I hope she does great for you!! 

Waiting for babies


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## Livinwright Farm

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Tractor supply should carry them??  Any feed stores around??  They should have em.  You can also call a small animal vet..they would have them. You would just need to ask if they would be nice enough to let you buy a box off them.  Tell em your situation?? They may help.
> 
> You probally could get away with no gloves and a good scrub??? Im sure its been done.  There was a day where we never had sterile gloves and people still assisted goats.   But I would try to get the gloves for sure.  You just dont wannt add any bacteria whatsoever in her womb.  I would keep searching.
> 
> Good luck...I hope she does great for you!!
> 
> Waiting for babies


I forgot to mention that our local TSC, Blue Seal, and Farmers' Union do not carry sterile gloves.  you would think...but apparently they do not.
My last options are either purchasing from a vet(if they are nice enough to allow that), getting through the hospital, or hopefully finding a medical supply store...


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## Livinwright Farm

I will be re-setting up the barn cam tomorrow... wish I had the money for Marestare...  
I LOVE their barn alert system! It is SO helpful.


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## PattySh

My vet doesn't use gloves and neither do I. To be honest almost all but surgical gloves are marked  unsterile anyway. Use lots of hot water and something like iodine scrub or chlorahexidine (you should be able to find at feed stores or pharmacies). Short gloves are not going to help and I find the shoulder ones are terrible for tactile ability. I have some and they are still in the barn mostly unused. Maybe I'll get some use  for the heifer?Get some lube if you don't have already. I bought the powder kind and a kid puller. In a pinch you can boil a piece of bailing twine. Make sure to give injectable antibiotics if you enter the uterus.


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## PattySh

I love the birthing experience. I am going to add that I have assisted  hundreds of births in the last 20 yrs, puppies, kids, piglets  and the infection risk from gloves (because the box sits around)sometimes  is higher than a freshly clean hand. Also it is much harder to have a tactile response and find parts with gloves.  Trim your nails short. Good idea also to keep the vet's# on hand because with little ones there is not much room to rearrange parts. The good thing  tho usually there is time for a vet to arrive should parts not be presenting correctly. But these are cautionary only, Cali is going to be just fine and deliver a tiny kid naturally!!


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## Livinwright Farm

Still no gooing yet... but realistically her due date should be around the 4th or 5th... if she holds to the nigerian trait(so I have read) of 145 days.  if she is closer to the 150 then it will be the 9th or later.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Don't be surprised if you don't see any goo.  Our last kidding there was basically no discharge at all, until the bubble emerged.  None of our does this year have had the long, amber string I see so often described.

Patty- those shoulder length gloves are the worst when it comes to feeling around.  Heck, it's hard enough to tell what's what in there without additional impediments!


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Don't be surprised if you don't see any goo.  Our last kidding there was basically no discharge at all, until the bubble emerged.  None of our does this year have had the long, amber string I see so often described.
> 
> Patty- those shoulder length gloves are the worst when it comes to feeling around.  Heck, it's hard enough to tell what's what in there without additional impediments!


This is one of the MANY reasons why I need to get the barn cam re-installed... I am not as worried about Momma or Maude kidding, they have been through it before and are 3 yrs old... so the barn cam will be focussed on Cali's stall.
My Mom and I will be sleeping in shifts starting tomorrow, and wake the other up if we see/hear any signs of labor.


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## PattySh

A bit of goo preceeded Sasha's delivery, no goo whatsoever with Sparkle until birth was imminent. Shiny teats on both tho just before labor started. Sasha(who is  an alpine/oberhasli but about the same size as a nigerian) a 2nd timer bagged up a week or so earlier, Sparkle first timer good size udder the day before birth but the teats filled the day of the birth. S'more  (second pregnancy)who is due the 12th has been "Gooey" for several weeks but her bag is still soft. So they are ll different. I do see a tendancy to want more attention and be more loving near the time and also most of them start to "talk" to their tummies and dig in the bedding right bout the time labor starts.

edited to add: I have a barn camera with the monitor sitting in my living room. I freaked out when I couldn't get the dang thing to work just before the girls were due. I had just used it for a litter of piglets. Had to change the power source as the cord must have gotten a nibble from mama pig! That thing has been a lifesaver, I use it in the kennel and barn. I want to get a better one tho mine is a cheap one I got off ebay so it's staticy.


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## Our7Wonders

Ariel's udder had not become shiney - only noticed she was fuller than the night before.  No goo whatsoever until she had amber goo immediately preceeding bubble and baby.

Jasmine has had a little opaque discharge for a month.  

Ligs were soft on both for the past few weeks.  So I knew we were *close* but nothing that told me "this is it" for certain until I saw her contracting.


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## Livinwright Farm

Still nothing out of the ordinary... udder is still itty bitty.


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## Livinwright Farm

This morning when checking Cali for any further udder development(not much btw), I noticed she had something on the end of her right teat... I kind of rubbed it(unsure if it was dirt or a scab), and it came off/out... it was kind of grey colored, and was(edited to correct spelling) in her teat.  What _was_ this?  some kind of natural plug in her teat?  I wish I had though to get a picture of it.


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## Livinwright Farm

*Cali: *
vulva has lengthened:






itty bitty udder now barely visible from behind:





_Edited To Add: _ Neither Momma or Maude were willing to allow me to get pics of their backsides...


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## Livinwright Farm

just something to break up my boredom while waiting for some kind of sign...
Doing 

 , 

 , 

 , getting 

 for the goats(natural dewormer)...


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## Lady Jane

Hope Cali does well.  
I will definitely be checking back to see how things go. 
Your smiley emoticons are really cute by the way.


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## Livinwright Farm

Lady Jane said:
			
		

> Hope Cali does well.
> I will definitely be checking back to see how things go.
> Your smiley emoticons are really cute by the way.


Us too! (Us- meaning my family)

Thanks. I got them from http://www.freesmileys.org


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## Livinwright Farm

Could it be?!? I was coming down the ladder from the barn loft, and saw Cali's tail flick to erect and the she looked as though she was *trying* to poop, then her tail relaxed, she started panting/quick breathing, then a pause, then her tail flicked to erect and again with the looking like she was *trying* to poop.....
Could this be the start of contractions??


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## Emmetts Dairy

It could be ??  Any fluid coming out???


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## Emmetts Dairy

They are usually a little more obvious about starting the birthing process.  I would keep an eye on her...She'll let you know...at 3am!!  

Could of been gas passing as well???  Hard saying if no noticable discharge. I say that..but every goat birth is differant???  Just keep watching her.


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## Livinwright Farm

I just sent this in reply as a message to you, but so everyone else knows too:
No goo or other fluids... but I have heard from a few others on here that their does did not have any precursor gooing before the bubble started emerging.
She has had NO ligaments for roughly 4-5 days now. IE: no matter how much I search for them, they CAN'T be felt, and I could feel them before)
She hasn't been pawwing the ground that I have noticed... she is however, continuously readjusting how she has her back legs set, and won't leave from standing in front of Momma's stall.  LOL what udders? the most this poor little girl has are kiwis stuck in above her teats 
She is also being verry quiet... unusual for her. she usually bleats for attention.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Her ligs have been GONE for 5 days or just loose?  If her ligs have been gone for more than 12 hours she should be gearing up.  Those do sound an awful lot like the minor contractions they have when early labor starts, but goats sure like to fake us out and that sort of thing could go on a good long while.


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## Emmetts Dairy

You just may be a grandmama soon!!!   I would put her in a kidding stahl...if her ligs dropped and her behavoirs changed then she just may be starting!!  All I can say is get your birthing kit ready to go. She a first freshener so she may not be so typical cuz its new to her and shes young.   I hope she does great for you and her!!!  I would keep a close eye on her...cuz she is young..and you should try to be with her in case she needs assistance.  

Good luck!! Keep us posted.


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## Our7Wonders

That's how Ariel's contractions were - her tail would lift straight up - very stretched and she's hunch just a bit.  Lots of quiet low "maw" noises.  Babies were on the ground just a few hours later.


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Her ligs have been GONE for 5 days or just loose?  If her ligs have been gone for more than 12 hours she should be gearing up.  Those do sound an awful lot like the minor contractions they have when early labor starts, but goats sure like to fake us out and that sort of thing could go on a good long while.


Yes, her ligs have completely disappeared from any discernable feeling... roughly 4-5 days ago. So I have know it was more than likely going to be before she hit the 150 day mark.  I am really hoping that she hasn't learned "the doe code"!!! for her sake and mine!


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## Livinwright Farm

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> You just may be a grandmama soon!!!   I would put her in a kidding stahl...if her ligs dropped and her behavoirs changed then she just may be starting!!  All I can say is get your birthing kit ready to go. She a first freshener so she may not be so typical cuz its new to her and shes young.   I hope she does great for you and her!!!  I would keep a close eye on her...cuz she is young..and you should try to be with her in case she needs assistance.
> 
> Good luck!! Keep us posted.




  But I'm too young to be a grandmama!!!  I'm only 27!!! 

ETA: everyone else is locked in their stalls with plenty of hay & water, Cali is in the, normally, community area where the salt lick is. I've got as much of my kidding kit as I could find and gather, ready and waiting. I finally got the barn cam hooked back up and it is connected to a tv for use as a video monitor. As soon as I hear her start screaming, I will be running out, kidding kit in arms, to assist her _if need be_.


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## Emmetts Dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> [/url][/url]  But I'm too young to be a grandmama!!!  I'm only 27!!!


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## elevan




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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/11195/stork-baby-38.gif


Cute Emily!


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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> http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/11195/stork-baby-38.gif
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> Cute Emily!
Click to expand...

Just hoping for the stork to arrive for you


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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> elevan said:
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> http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/11195/stork-baby-38.gif
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> Cute Emily!
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Just hoping for the stork to arrive for you
Click to expand...

Thanks, hopefully *before* 3AM


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## Livinwright Farm

There hasn't been a sign of a contraction for 5 hrs now... can goat get braxton hicks?
Now her tail is going about 90mph and she just horked down 3 cups of shredded Alfalfa hay.... 
I will be taking the first shift in my family for staying awake and keeping a watchful eye on the tv/barn monitor screen.


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> There hasn't been a sign of a contraction for 5 hrs now... *can goat get braxton hicks?*
> Now her tail is going about 90mph and she just horked down 3 cups of shredded Alfalfa hay....
> I will be taking the first shift in my family for staying awake and keeping a watchful eye on the tv/barn monitor screen.


My Daisy did.


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## AlaskanShepherdess

I hope you get kids soon!


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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> 
> 
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> There hasn't been a sign of a contraction for 5 hrs now... *can goats get braxton hicks?*
> Now her tail is going about 90mph and she just horked down 3 cups of shredded Alfalfa hay....
> I will be taking the first shift in my family for staying awake and keeping a watchful eye on the tv/barn monitor screen.
> 
> 
> 
> My Daisy did.
Click to expand...

About how long was it before Daisy started real contractions*? _ETA: *from when she had the braxton hicks_
Just curious as to how long Cali might keep my family in suspense.


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
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> Livinwright Farm said:
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> There hasn't been a sign of a contraction for 5 hrs now... *can goats get braxton hicks?*
> Now her tail is going about 90mph and she just horked down 3 cups of shredded Alfalfa hay....
> I will be taking the first shift in my family for staying awake and keeping a watchful eye on the tv/barn monitor screen.
> 
> 
> 
> My Daisy did.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> About how long was it before Daisy started real contractions*? _ETA: *from when she had the braxton hicks_
> Just curious as to how long Cali might keep my family in suspense.
Click to expand...

Daisy fooled me with braxton hicks about 2 weeks prior to kidding.


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## Dreaming Of Goats

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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> elevan said:
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> My Daisy did.
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> About how long was it before Daisy started real contractions*? _ETA: *from when she had the braxton hicks_
> Just curious as to how long Cali might keep my family in suspense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Daisy fooled me with braxton hicks about 2 weeks prior to kidding.
Click to expand...

I remember that


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
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> elevan said:
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> My Daisy did.
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> About how long was it before Daisy started real contractions*? _ETA: *from when she had the braxton hicks_
> Just curious as to how long Cali might keep my family in suspense.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Daisy fooled me with braxton hicks about 2 weeks prior to kidding.
Click to expand...

Oh goodness... I hope Cali doesn't keep me that long, that would mean I am wrong about the date she was bred.


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## elevan

I can't remember...didn't you say she's due the 7th or 9th or something like that?


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> I can't remember...didn't you say she's due the 7th or 9th or something like that?


If I go with the standard breeds' gestation she is due the 9th
If I go with the typical(from what I have read)Nigerians/pygmies' gestation(which she is a Nigi-Pyg) she was due the 4th.
So I am expecting that she will go any day/moment now... that is, unless I got the bred date wrong.


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## elevan

Hopefully you weren't off the due date by a month like I was!    Talk about nerve racking and nail biting!

They can actually "settle" 2 - 4 days after breeding (according to my vet) so you've still got some play room with timing


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## Livinwright Farm

I am going to sleep for a week once she and my other does have kidded!


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## Emmetts Dairy

Still waiting???  Hope it goes well for you!! Anxious for pics!!!


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## Livinwright Farm

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Still waiting???  Hope it goes well for you!! Anxious for pics!!!


yes, still waiting.  >insert theme from Jeopardy here<
me too!  
and me too!


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## Livinwright Farm

Just took Cali's temp(just barely got an appropriate thermometer), and she is reading 102.4F...


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## Our7Wonders

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Just took Cali's temp(just barely got an appropriate thermometer), and she is reading 102.4F...


Does temp change with impending labor?   I haven't yet heard that - BUT I'm new and there's LOTS I haven't heard yet!


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## Livinwright Farm

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just took Cali's temp(just barely got an appropriate thermometer), and she is reading 102.4F...
> 
> 
> 
> Does temp change with impending labor?   I haven't yet heard that - BUT I'm new and there's LOTS I haven't heard yet!
Click to expand...

I don't know if temp will drop in goats like it will with people and dogs... but I was talking with a vet tech earlier today and mentioned the (apparently) braxton hicks that Cali had a couple days ago, and they said we should get her temp. If it was high, odds are she _had_ been in labor, and something happened midway signaling that she needs emergency vet help. If it was within normal goat temp parameters, then she should be fine and we just have to wait it out however long it takes....


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## elevan




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## Livinwright Farm

Got my coffee on ready, 

 and my JUMBO popcorn while I sit and wait with the rest of you!
*Edited to add: *Cali's pooch is starting to look poofy...  still no goo. Praying she doesn't have it/them while I am out tomorrow!!  Or that if she does, it is easy on her and the kid/kids are small enough to pass smoothly!!


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## elevan

Hope all is well today


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## Livinwright Farm

going to check for multiple heartbeats today... picked up a stethascope(sp?) and going to see if I hear more than just hers. Same with Momma.
Still poofy back there, but she just went NUTZ over a crown of broccoli!


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## mossyStone




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## Livinwright Farm

Checked for heartbeats... I was able to locate Cali's heartbeat with little problem... but when I attempted to hear anything on *her* right side, all I could hear was the chickens, her rumen and the sound of her hair bristling the sound piece on her belly....   :/  I *KNOW * she is preggers, she is all poofy back there and her itty bitty udder is slowly(very slowly) swelling.
I also could not locate a heartbeat on Momma at all.... but I KNOW she is alive...  kinda hard to miss the fact that she is walking, eating, pooping, meaaa-ing, etc.  If it weren't so cold out still, I would shave the girls to not have the interference from their hair.  Guess I just have to keep waiting.... :/


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## Livinwright Farm

Still waiting...   goodness... if I got the date right, today would have only been day 151... how long until I start surmising that she was bred later than I thought?


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## elevan

Well...when my Daisy hit day 155 and still hadn't kidded the vet said to refigure and add 18-23 days and then start the watch over...

Good luck!


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## Livinwright Farm

I would, but honestly, she was so young when bred, and I had no idea what a doe/doeling in heat looked like... plus both bucklings were all over her every chance they got. We were unable to get stalls built and doors on them before the kids reached 8 weeks old.   I am just stuck in a lack of sleep trance for the next month until Maude(the last bred) kids and if Cali doesn't kid by then... then I don't know.  She has been showing signs of pregnancy: lack of a heat, no smileys around her pooch, her udder has S-L-O-W-L-Y started swelling, her right side has looked VERY round, and her pooch has gotten poofy looking over the last couple of days... I have been reading that does can have false pregnancies... but usually the pooch won't agree with the rest of their body. :/ She has me so befuddled!


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## elevan

A few questions that I'm sure that you've stated before but please bear with my late night brain here...

1. She's 7 months now right?  So, you believe she settled at 2 months?
2.  Did you remove the boys immediately after she was bred or were they left with her?
3.  Have you had any tests to confirm that she settled? Ultrasound...blood test...
4.  Do you have a goat vet that you are working with?


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## elevan

And when I refigured...I added 21 days...making Daisy due 2/16 and she kidded on 2/17...so that was pretty darn good advice that he gave me.

You might want to refigure just so you have the potential timeline...it might make things make more sense.


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> A few questions that I'm sure that you've stated before but please bear with my late night brain here...
> 
> 1. She's 7 months now right?  So, you believe she settled at 2 months?
> 2.  Did you remove the boys immediately after she was bred or were they left with her?
> 3.  Have you had any tests to confirm that she settled? Ultrasound...blood test...
> 4.  Do you have a goat vet that you are working with?


*1.) * yes, and yes
*2.) * As soon as we were able to seperate them, we did, which
     unfortunately wasn't until they were 10-12 weeks old. 
*3.) * We have not had an ultrasound or blood test done, we don't
     have the extra money to have them done, and on top of that, no vet
     within an hour's drive will do anything to help people with livestock.
*4.) * We do not have a regular large animal vet, at least not yet.
     Mainly because, as I stated in answer 3, there is no livestock vet
     within an hour's drive. We contacted 1 vet who is a "multiple species vet" and it will either be $45 per goat per office visit + any tests or administrations of anything, or it is $90 for a farm visit + anything done or administered.   In my area(northern half of NH) there are no true goat vets. If you can find a large animal vet, they specialize in horses.
I would have utilized a 4-h group for getting an ultrasound done on my girls, but I couldn't find out where one was.... in fact, I still can't find that out.


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> And when I refigured...I added 21 days...making Daisy due 2/16 and she kidded on 2/17...so that was pretty darn good advice that he gave me.
> 
> You might want to refigure just so you have the potential timeline...it might make things make more sense.


If she gets to 155 days from when I figured initially, I will definitely add 18-21 and figure when that sets her.... actually... let me see... if she were to go 18-21 days later that would put her at around March 27th through the 30th.... so, yeah, I'm basically not going to be sleeping much at all throughout this month.  _FUN...._


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## elevan

Ok, so there is the potential that she was bred later...

I would add 21 days, so you know the next potential due date.

Observations sound as though she is pregnant...and not being precocious...

I know it sucks to have to wait longer, but it would be good if she bred later...gave her own body another month of growing.

And the boys will attempt to breed long before they are viable...my little Kingston has been trying to "mate" his sister since he was 5 days old    Hence he will be banded on his 8 wk birthday


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Ok, so there is the potential that she was bred later...
> 
> I would add 21 days, so you know the next potential due date.
> 
> Observations sound as though she is pregnant...and not being precocious...
> 
> I know it sucks to have to wait longer, but it would be good if she bred later...gave her own body another month of growing.
> 
> And the boys will attempt to breed long before they are viable...my little Kingston has been trying to "mate" his sister since he was 5 days old    Hence he will be banded on his 8 wk birthday


Oh, fun!  happy 8 wk b-day Kingston!

I know that Marly was viable, cause he also got to his mom(Maude) within that same time, and she is really widening on her right side!! I will have to get a pic of her tomorrow. She doesn't look like the ocean liners that were posted on here last week, but she is definitely getting wide!
I am hoping that she really fills out her udder this year... and that she is having multiples. It sounds horrible, knowing that they will be little inbred babies, but Marly is SO handsome! I really want as many kids from him as possible... but next year I will be setting up for Pup to sire Maudes babies... that is, IF she lets him.


----------



## PattySh

Have you been able to palapate a kid in Cali? Usually right before they kid you can really feel the kid. S'more is due anytime and I could feel the whole outline of a nose and a leg last nite. I knew I probably had one more good  nites sleep.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Have you been able to palapate a kid in Cali? Usually right before they kid you can really feel the kid. S'more is due anytime and I could feel the whole outline of a nose and a leg last nite. I knew I probably had one more good  nites sleep.


I have tried feeling the soft area of her right side(above the ribs)... but I can't feel anything. am I feeling the wrong area?


----------



## Our7Wonders

I think it's the underside you feel - just in front of the udder.  My does never likes me to touch them there, so I couldn't ever feel anything.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> I think it's the underside you feel - just in front of the udder.  My does never likes me to touch them there, so I couldn't ever feel anything.


I the only thing I can feel when feeling her underbelly is the difference between soft and firm tummy tissue. :/
Cali is just determined to drive me(and my family) crazy for a month... I need to have a chat with my two 3yr old does and chastize them for teaching Cali the code.


----------



## PattySh

Due anytime you should be able to feel the kid on the right side.  Yes the soft squishy area but it shouldn't be empty feeing if she is preggers due soon. You should have a good size kid kicking you back! If you don't see a kid move or feel one, where is a chance she isn't pregnant or not nearly that far along.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Due anytime you should be able to feel the kid on the right side.  Yes the soft squishy area but it shouldn't be empty feeing if she is preggers due soon. You should have a good size kid kicking you back! If you don't see a kid move or feel one, where is a chance she isn't pregnant or not nearly that far along.


I am really starting to wish that I had the money to have ultrasounds done on all three of my girls. I just can't feel a thing. No matter how "hard" I push in on their soft areas.... and I don't want to push too hard.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Update: I felt the soft "pocket" on Cali's right side, above* (edited to fix spelling error) * her rib cage, and this time I felt something!!!!! a firm blump!  I took my hand away for a minute and then felt again and the blump wasn't there... tricky little kid... or kids. I left my hand there just to see if it/they came back around and after about 1 minute I felt something brush by!!  YAY!!!!

Also, It is getting harder for me to distinguish over all size of Cali's udder. I is no longer like little kiwis in there. It is like it is stretching out and covering more area. I was also able to feel the firm mammary tissue. It has increased by at least double from last week.
SO, I guess I got the bred date down a little off after all.  Oh well, at least she is happy, healthy, and "most" importantly, I now know for certain that she isn't faking it!! 
  Please, please, please let it be little twins!!!!


----------



## elevan




----------



## elevan

Any updates?


----------



## elevan

It's been 4 days since you updated...is everything ok?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Sorry for no updates... unfortunately, there really isn't anything new to report.
I felt Cali's underbelly the other day by interweaving my fingers cupped just in front of her teeny tiny udder. On my left hand(her lowest right side) I felt a light flutter.. possibly dancing feet? On my right hand I felt a firm bump press and rub against my hand... perhaps a head or bum? Her udder has stretched/grown to roughly double what it was... but still her teats just barely peek out from her thick coat.
Cali was 23.2 lbs and 16 inches at the withers at roughly 2 months old... at 6.75 months old she is up to 42.6 lbs and 17.5 inches at the withers.

Maude is difficult to handle and even more difficult when it comes to getting checked out. all I really have to go on with her is her general appearance. She has a decent barrel.. fuller looking on the right side than her left side. her back end, when she doesn't notice me looking, looks puffier. She hasn't really started rebuilding her udder, but she does have until Easter to work on building it.

Momma is a mystery. She has not become skinny, but she no longer has the wide & low barrel that she used to have. I have not found any fetal remains... so I am wondering if she had a false pregnancy... then again... she hasn't come back into heat.    Good news with her though, is that I can now have all three girls in the same space without Cali nursing off of her. Cali still tries to sneak attack, but as soon as the hairs on her lower jaw slightly touch Momma's shriveled up udder, Momma jerks away from her!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

You can just barely see the tip of a teat poking out near the inner brown spot of her right leg.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

No kids yet, but getting close!!! *SHOULD* be Thursday or Friday!!

In the mean time... here are a few pics of what Cali looks like now.


----------



## elevan

Definitely moving along!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Definitely moving along!


I sure hope so! This is the third round of count 18-21 more days... gets really tiring after awhile. I know it is better for her that it is this much later, given how young she is, every day older that she gets means her frame is that much better for kidding.  I just don't know if I will survive another 18-21 days...  SO, Cali *HAS* to kid this week!


----------



## elevan

Here's hoping 3rd rounds the charm  

I'm never had one kid so young or heard anyone tell the tale of...so I really don't know what to expect.  She doesn't look like she'll go this week...but I suppose you never can tell.  AND goats are liars, right?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Here's hoping 3rd rounds the charm
> 
> I'm never had one kid so young or heard anyone tell the tale of...so I really don't know what to expect.  She doesn't look like she'll go this week...but I suppose you never can tell.  AND goats are liars, right?


Hey! me either!   Yeah, she is 8 months 1 week old... and I have absolutely NO idea on what to look for in regards to progress... all I know is that her udder & teats went from TINY to what you see in the most recent pics in just a week and 4 days. Her pooch has just recently been getting swollen/pushed out. I was hoping the pic would show it better, but oh well.
Yesterday, Momma started getting rough with Cali... which is VERY odd! The two of them are usually stuck to each other.  I am hoping that it is just Momma trying to reinforce her alpha herd status.


----------



## PattySh

I agree she doesn't look term (but could be wrong!!!!). My 2 girls that just had babies are small goats. Their udders looked that size for last 2 months, the last 2 weeks got quite a bit larger. I took them to the buck's pen for a one nite fling so knew exact dates, both were overdue, one by 3 days. one 2 days.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Oh goodness! I really REALLY hope I was not THAT off on when she was accidentally bred.  I have been checking on her every day. Over the past week was when her udder has really started to swell/build, and the decent swelling of her pooch started happening over the last couple days... which is part of why I think that she should go either Thursday or Friday...   But then again, I have no idea what to be looking for on her in terms of progress. This is my family's first time with goats, and I can't seem to find anyone who has had a doeling pregnant at such a young age.  What a quandry I am stuck with... and nerves that are at their end. 
I am not sure what will happen to my brain if she doesn't go into labor this week or next...  I'm thinking it will go into meltdown.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Would it help if I showed you full body pics, so you have an idea of her size at 8 months 4 days old? Also, last I checked she was 42.6 lbs.. but I can check that again today to see how much she has put on since March 30th...
_*Edited to fix a typo*_


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Okay, here is a new pic of Cali @ 8 mo, 1 week, 1 day old(today). She weighed in just now at 50.2 lbs... a 7.6 lb gain in a week and 5 days... not sure if that means anything to anyone or not???


----------



## PattySh

If the intact bucks continued to be in the barn with her there is a possibility that she bred several months running and her body was not ready to conceive (or you could be right and she is due soon). Does continue to grow until they are 2 or more so her growing is normal for her age.  We faced the same frustration with my daughter's pygmy herd so I feel your pain. We never knew when to expect babies, once with tragic results (we had totally unexpected winter kids once as we did not know they could rebreed soon after kidding. This time wth the dairy herd we know the exact breeding dates. The good thing is that Cali is continuing to grow and do well.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> If the intact bucks continued to be in the barn with her there is a possibility that she bred several months running and her body was not ready to conceive (or you could be right and she is due soon). Does continue to grow until they are 2 or more so her growing is normal for her age.  We faced the same frustration with my daughter's pygmy herd so I feel your pain. We never knew when to expect babies, once with tragic results (we had totally unexpected winter kids once as we did not know they could rebreed soon after kidding. This time wth the dairy herd we know the exact breeding dates. The good thing is that Cali is continuing to grow and do well.


Thankfully we were able to get the bucks seperated from her within a month and a half... so there really was only a month and a half's span that she could have been bred. They were out with her on thanksgiving(it was a beautiful day), but the boys did not mount her.. the only mounting was Marly w/ Maude(his mom  )


----------



## DouglasPeeps

Can't wait to see your babies!!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

DouglasPeeps said:
			
		

> Can't wait to see your babies!!!


ME EITHER!!!!!  This is SOO crazy waiting for their arrival!!! LOL


----------



## PattySh

She's adorable, Her sides don't look very wide so maybe she has dropped. I didn't realize you seperated the boys so maybe she is due. Her udder does look like a pregnant udder.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> She's adorable, Her sides don't look very wide so maybe she has dropped. I didn't realize you seperated the boys so maybe she is due. Her udder does look like a pregnant udder.


She was wider a couple of days ago... I have been looking for the sunken sides that come with a drop, but... I think, due to how young she is and her mini frame, it just isn't gonna show like it will on a 2-3 yr old doe.
I need Cali to have at least twins... triplets would be nicer!
  thinking *PINK* with the full pink moon on the 17th!!!!


----------



## elevan

Yep, full moon is your best bet.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Yep, full moon is your best bet.


I was just reading up on the correllation of full moons and birthing. Something to do with the water retention & pressures and how the increase in pressure will cause labor... interesting stuff. ^_^


----------



## DouglasPeeps

How is Cali doing today?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

DouglasPeeps said:
			
		

> How is Cali doing today?


Today she is a little chubbers!!  the right side of her udder has gotten plumper and firmer than the left side... I am hoping that it will be back to even by tomorrow morning.  She has that overly pregnant woman walk down though! I feel so bad for her!  No progress with her ligs yet... then again I have her penciled onto my calendar for Thursday through Sunday. I am thinking that the full moon on Sunday will get her going though.
 I just looked at my tv barn monitor and noticed that she is getting a back massage from her little clutch of 9 week old chicks!


----------



## elevan

I can't wait to see Cali's kid(s)! You must be so antsy right now!

Come on Cali!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see Cali's kid(s)! You must be so antsy right now!
> 
> Come on Cali!


I am not sure if antsy is the right word for it  As I stated before, *thankfully*, there is only so much longer for her to kid. 

If she had been running with the bucklings this whole time, I think my head would be on the verge of exploding if Monday came with still no babies.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Any more updated photos? Udder shots


----------



## elevan

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Any more updated photos? Udder shots


Yes, please do update...

Full moon is tomorrow I believe...


----------



## St0rmyM00n

elevan said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any more updated photos? Udder shots
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, please do update...
> 
> Full moon is tomorrow I believe...
Click to expand...

Sure is I have been staying away from Malina and she has spent most her day either on the porch by the front door or at the back door steps waiting for us to come out  Its horrible not being around her now after spending so much time with her.

Everyone keeps telling me leave her be or she will keep holding the baby lol.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Cali has taken hold of the barrow that I put out(no kiddy pool, so using what is on hand from a defunct wheel barrow) the last 2 days. She wasn't gooing per se yesterday, unless what I saw was remnant from losing the plug. When I checked on her in the morning during feeding, she was... sticky(had pieces of straw and pine shavings stuck to her vulva{which I removed}). Maude tried intimidating her out of the barrow in the afternoon, but Cali raised the hair on her spine and tipped her head, as if to say,"This is mine. Back off woman."  To my suprise, Maude backed down to her.
Today, I was checking her ligs, which do seem to be softening up, her petite little udder is back to even, both sides firm to the feel, but nothing like what most of the pics on here look like for prekidding bulging(skin is not shiny or stretched to max). I was doing a palpation of her underbelly and felt at least 2 hooves(one on the right and one on the left{assuming 2 seperate kids}) and at least 1 nose(potentially two, unless the kid did a flip & turn)! Will attempt to get more udder shots today, hoping she will cooperate. It also appears that she HAS dropped! Her rumen side now sticks higher up & out, and her right side, though hard to tell in pics, is lower down with a little dip above the barrel.
Those of you who pray, please pray that she goes while I am here to assist, if needed of course... and that she goes before my sanity does.  thank you.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

The requested bonus pics of Cali









Her pooch is a bit more swollen(espescially when she lays down, but I couldn't get a good pic of that).




Look at the girth on the poor 8.5 month old









Thought I would toss in an update and a couple pics of Maude while I'm at it.  Maude should go into labor sometime between the 23rd through the 30th. Depending on when she settled and whether she goes early or a little late. I was finally able to confirm once and for all that she did settle from that accidental Thanksgiving day breeding with her son Marly. After much struggling with her to make her realize that I was not going to hurt her in any way(scratch grains helped a LOT!)... I was able to palpate her kid side enough to feel either a leg, head, or bum brush against my fingers!  Hurray for Maude and her little inbred baby or babies!  Oi!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

I love Cali's colors she is so pretty I hope all goes well and that your home when she does go into labor  Good luck!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Little Update: Cali has been stretching off and on for the last half hour. No goo, no pawwing, no murmuring at her belly... but her pooch has swollen a little more, theres all the stretching and she doesn't want her evening feeding. I'm thinking I need to stay caffinated through the night. 



 Please don't let her be lying to me!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> I love Cali's colors she is so pretty I hope all goes well and that your home when she does go into labor  Good luck!


Thanks! I'm hoping it will be tonight or tomorrow. Just don't tell HER that!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Goats are never all that easy to read, but looking at her udder Cali looks like she has at least 2 more weeks.  But, of course, they can always fill at the last minute.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Goats are never all that easy to read, but looking at her udder Cali looks like she has at least 2 more weeks.  But, of course, they can always fill at the last minute.



Thankfully, at the most/worst Cali would be kidding a week & a couple of days from tonight.. Thanksgiving was the last day that the bucklings had access to her. She HAS to kid tonight/tomorrow though, cause this waiting thing is killing me.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goats are never all that easy to read, but looking at her udder Cali looks like she has at least 2 more weeks.  But, of course, they can always fill at the last minute.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thankfully, at the most/worst Cali would be kidding a week & a couple of days from tonight.. Thanksgiving was the last day that the bucklings had access to her. She HAS to kid tonight/tomorrow though, cause this waiting thing is killing me.
Click to expand...

Ugh you have to wait another week and 1/2?

I am trying to think positive ( NOW NOW NOW )
lol

I don't want to go another month waiting but I don't see any signs of kidding today unless Malina is tricking me.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Ugh you have to wait another week and 1/2?
> 
> I am trying to think positive ( NOW NOW NOW ) lol
> 
> I don't want to go another month waiting but I don't see any signs of kidding today unless Malina is tricking me.


I hope not, but it is a possibility.

Me TOO!!

At least you are sure of when your Malina was bred.  I just know the last possible breeding date for Cali. If she goes longer than the 2 weeks from today mark, I *WILL* be bringing her to one of the vets that is roughly an hour's drive(one way) from our house, to have them see if she needs inducing or a c-section. My family really can't afford the $$ to do that, but if it gets down to it, we will eat spaghettios for 3 months in order to pay the vet's bill($90/office visit+ anything done/administered  ).


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh you have to wait another week and 1/2?
> 
> I am trying to think positive ( NOW NOW NOW ) lol
> 
> I don't want to go another month waiting but I don't see any signs of kidding today unless Malina is tricking me.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not, but it is a possibility.
> 
> Me TOO!!
> 
> At least you are sure of when your Malina was bred.  I just know the last possible breeding date for Cali. If she goes longer than the 2 weeks from today mark, I *WILL* be bringing her to one of the vets that is roughly an hour's drive(one way) from our house, to have them see if she needs inducing or a c-section. My family really can't afford the $$ to do that, but if it gets down to it, we will eat spaghettios for 3 months in order to pay the vet's bill($90/office visit+ anything done/administered  ).
Click to expand...

Cough Cough 

I don't know when she was bred 

Malina has been with Kuzco our buck since the day we brought them home last year, last April they were 2 and 1/2 months old when I got them. 

I didn't have the ability to keep them apart at that moment as I do now.

I started noticing udders like your doe has, on Malina the end of feb, and beginning of March from then she has just exploded into a huge udder and full looking teets.

I bought them on my Bday April 26th last year my luck she waits until that day to kid lol.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh you have to wait another week and 1/2?
> 
> I am trying to think positive ( NOW NOW NOW ) lol
> 
> I don't want to go another month waiting but I don't see any signs of kidding today unless Malina is tricking me.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not, but it is a possibility.
> 
> Me TOO!!
> 
> At least you are sure of when your Malina was bred.  I just know the last possible breeding date for Cali. If she goes longer than the 2 weeks from today mark, I *WILL* be bringing her to one of the vets that is roughly an hour's drive(one way) from our house, to have them see if she needs inducing or a c-section. My family really can't afford the $$ to do that, but if it gets down to it, we will eat spaghettios for 3 months in order to pay the vet's bill($90/office visit+ anything done/administered  ).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Cough Cough
> 
> I don't know when she was bred
> 
> Malina has been with Kuzco our buck since the day we brought them home last year, last April they were 2 and 1/2 months old when I got them.
> 
> I didn't have the ability to keep them apart at that moment as I do now.
> 
> I started noticing udders like your doe has, on Malina the end of feb, and beginning of March from then she has just exploded into a huge udder and full looking teets.
> 
> I bought them on my Bday April 26th last year my luck she waits until that day to kid lol.
Click to expand...

OHHH!!!  Gotchya! Well, that would be a nice b-day present, right?!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope not, but it is a possibility.
> 
> Me TOO!!
> 
> At least you are sure of when your Malina was bred.  I just know the last possible breeding date for Cali. If she goes longer than the 2 weeks from today mark, I *WILL* be bringing her to one of the vets that is roughly an hour's drive(one way) from our house, to have them see if she needs inducing or a c-section. My family really can't afford the $$ to do that, but if it gets down to it, we will eat spaghettios for 3 months in order to pay the vet's bill($90/office visit+ anything done/administered  ).
> 
> 
> 
> Cough Cough
> 
> I don't know when she was bred
> 
> Malina has been with Kuzco our buck since the day we brought them home last year, last April they were 2 and 1/2 months old when I got them.
> 
> I didn't have the ability to keep them apart at that moment as I do now.
> 
> I started noticing udders like your doe has, on Malina the end of feb, and beginning of March from then she has just exploded into a huge udder and full looking teets.
> 
> I bought them on my Bday April 26th last year my luck she waits until that day to kid lol.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OHHH!!!  Gotchya! Well, that would be a nice b-day present, right?!
Click to expand...

Yea it would be but geez its so far away another week and 1/2 which puts me about the same time as your's is due.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cough Cough
> 
> I don't know when she was bred
> 
> Malina has been with Kuzco our buck since the day we brought them home last year, last April they were 2 and 1/2 months old when I got them.
> 
> I didn't have the ability to keep them apart at that moment as I do now.
> 
> I started noticing udders like your doe has, on Malina the end of feb, and beginning of March from then she has just exploded into a huge udder and full looking teets.
> 
> I bought them on my Bday April 26th last year my luck she waits until that day to kid lol.
> 
> 
> 
> OHHH!!!  Gotchya! Well, that would be a nice b-day present, right?!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yea it would be but geez its so far away another week and 1/2 which puts me about the same time as your's is due.
Click to expand...

It would be about the same. I should also be when Maude goes... she hasn't really started rebuilding her udder yet, but I didn't get to see her when she was building her FF udder... she may be a late bloomer.


----------



## AlaskanShepherdess

I love Cali's coloring! I hope she goes tonight for you!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

I posted updated pictures if you want to see  but still no baby


----------



## Livinwright Farm

CrownofThornsNDGoats said:
			
		

> I love Cali's coloring! I hope she goes tonight for you!


Thank You!
Looks like when she goes it won't be tonight anymore... but potentially today!   

Cali still refuses to eat anything... she won't even touch her favorite: Calf Manna. She loves the stuff and will usually hork down a good solid cup of it... I can't even get her to eat a tablespoon of it. :/  Also, she has been intermitantly flicking & holding her tail at maximum(up & flat against her back), she is: up, down, up, down, up, down(progressively having a harder and harder time getting on her feet once down for a good chunk of time), she is breathing a little closer to panting, and doesn't want any of her chick babies on or near her(however, she is mighty curious as to why the cat is locked up in it's crate{he was getting a little too "friendly"* with the barn's new _little_ flock members}) 

* "friendly" = 


_Edited to change Manna Pro to Calf Manna. my bad._


----------



## elevan

$90 office call!! Ouch!! My vet is only $39 plus whatever is done...

Hope it doesn't come to that and she goes today or within the next few days.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

no babies yet, she still won't touch her feed, calf manna, or even sunflowers or alfalfa. I did catch her nibbling on a little hay, but nothing really to speak of. When I locked up the barn for the "night" at 12:30, I watched her poop, then roughly 1 minute later she pooped again... weird. Then this morning when she pooped is was one big glob(not runny, just *very* soft). Her ligs have softened more, but are still only roughly half way gone.

Not sure what I can do about her appetite... I know she needs to eat more than a handful of hay. Any ideas on how to get it jump-started are greatly appreciated.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> no babies yet, she still won't touch her feed, calf manna, or even sunflowers or alfalfa. I did catch her nibbling on a little hay, but nothing really to speak of. When I locked up the barn for the "night" at 12:30, I watched her poop, then roughly 1 minute later she pooped again... weird. Then this morning when she pooped is was one big glob(not runny, just *very* soft). Her ligs have softened more, but are still only roughly half way gone.
> 
> Not sure what I can do about her appetite... I know she needs to eat more than a handful of hay. Any ideas on how to get it jump-started are greatly appreciated.


Is it possible she has eaten some without you seeing her?

Maybe her tummy don't feel well?

I hope she feels better soon and that is odd....Malina is a porker she is pigging out as we speak on brush. She don't really eat very much mineral all though its there freely every day fresh she munches on the ground more than anything.

How is your doe's udder today has it changed any?


----------



## elevan

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no babies yet, she still won't touch her feed, calf manna, or even sunflowers or alfalfa. I did catch her nibbling on a little hay, but nothing really to speak of. When I locked up the barn for the "night" at 12:30, I watched her poop, then roughly 1 minute later she pooped again... weird. Then this morning when she pooped is was one big glob(not runny, just *very* soft). Her ligs have softened more, but are still only roughly half way gone.
> 
> Not sure what I can do about her appetite... I know she needs to eat more than a handful of hay. Any ideas on how to get it jump-started are greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible she has eaten some without you seeing her?
> 
> Maybe her tummy don't feel well?
> 
> I hope she feels better soon and that is odd....Malina is a porker she is pigging out as we speak on brush. She don't really eat very much mineral all though its there freely every day fresh she munches on the ground more than anything.
> 
> How is your doe's udder today has it changed any?
Click to expand...

Sounds like Daisy 48 hours before she kidded...


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no babies yet, she still won't touch her feed, calf manna, or even sunflowers or alfalfa. I did catch her nibbling on a little hay, but nothing really to speak of. When I locked up the barn for the "night" at 12:30, I watched her poop, then roughly 1 minute later she pooped again... weird. Then this morning when she pooped is was one big glob(not runny, just *very* soft). Her ligs have softened more, but are still only roughly half way gone.
> 
> Not sure what I can do about her appetite... I know she needs to eat more than a handful of hay. Any ideas on how to get it jump-started are greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible she has eaten some without you seeing her?
> 
> Maybe her tummy don't feel well?
> 
> I hope she feels better soon and that is odd....Malina is a porker she is pigging out as we speak on brush. She don't really eat very much mineral all though its there freely every day fresh she munches on the ground more than anything.
> 
> How is your doe's udder today has it changed any?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Sounds like Daisy 48 hours before she kidded...*
Click to expand...

I am sure that she hasn't touched her goat grain, calf manna, sunflower or alfalfa. I am the one who gets them their feed, she might have eaten hay overnight... I might get her some probiotic powder and see f she will take it. Just to make sure her ruman is working properly.
I am wondering if she is acting a bit like a dog. When a dog starts the labor process, they effectively stop eating due to their discomfort.

Emily, were you talking about Cali or Malina?


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible she has eaten some without you seeing her?
> 
> Maybe her tummy don't feel well?
> 
> I hope she feels better soon and that is odd....Malina is a porker she is pigging out as we speak on brush. She don't really eat very much mineral all though its there freely every day fresh she munches on the ground more than anything.
> 
> How is your doe's udder today has it changed any?
> 
> 
> 
> *Sounds like Daisy 48 hours before she kidded...*
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am sure that she hasn't touched her goat grain, calf manna, sunflower or alfalfa. I am the one who gets them their feed, she might have eaten hay overnight... I might get her some probiotic powder and see f she will take it. Just to make sure her ruman is working properly.
> I am wondering if she is acting a bit like a dog. When a dog starts the labor process, they effectively stop eating due to their discomfort.
> 
> Emily, were you talking about Cali or Malina?
Click to expand...

I was wondering too it confused me. 

Poor Cali, it worries me when they don't eat but I guess its part of the process in birthing in some animals.


----------



## DouglasPeeps

and


----------



## elevan

Sorry!  I was talking about Cali.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Sorry!  I was talking about Cali.


Oh, I hope so! She did eat 2/3 cup Calf Manna mixed with 1.5 cups Purina Noble Goat for dinner tonight.. so that is a relief. hopefully she doesn't go tomorrow, I just found out that my Mom needs to be at a bank tomorrow morning(45 minute drive one way), I'm sure she will want to do some shopping while we are in that area, and then tomorrow night we promised a friend we would go to her  GREEN meeting.  If she is roughly 42 hrs from kidding, that would be GREAT!! Wednesday is a great day for me, I got nothing else to do(besides regular house & farm work).  *nods excitedly*


----------



## St0rmyM00n

How is she today?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

back to more of a healthy appetite, poop is almost back to normal, she has started laying on her right side in a diving postion... she intermittantly goes between this and pulling her legs under her and laying more flat on her tummy.   I'm thinking it can't be too much longer until she finally decides that she is ready.  I seriously CAN'T wait to see if she has twins or if she will have triplets.  Triplets would be great as far as her frame is concerned, but she might not be able to feed that many.

 Please, for the love of God, don't let her have learned how to lie to me!!!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> back to more of a healthy appetite, poop is almost back to normal, she has started laying on her right side in a diving postion... she intermittantly goes between this and pulling her legs under her and laying more flat on her tummy.   I'm thinking it can't be too much longer until she finally decides that she is ready.  I seriously CAN'T wait to see if she has twins or if she will have triplets.  Triplets would be great as far as her frame is concerned, but she might not be able to feed that many.
> 
> Please, for the love of God, don't let her have learned how to lie to me!!!


Malina has been doing that too for a while now I think its positioning the kid or kids ....I hope she has those babies soon...

How much longer does she have in her estimated due date?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> back to more of a healthy appetite, poop is almost back to normal, she has started laying on her right side in a diving postion... she intermittantly goes between this and pulling her legs under her and laying more flat on her tummy.   I'm thinking it can't be too much longer until she finally decides that she is ready.  I seriously CAN'T wait to see if she has twins or if she will have triplets.  Triplets would be great as far as her frame is concerned, but she might not be able to feed that many.
> 
> Please, for the love of God, don't let her have learned how to lie to me!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Malina has been doing that too for a while now I think its positioning the kid or kids ....I hope she has those babies soon...
> 
> How much longer does she have in her estimated due date?
Click to expand...

At the absolute latest, Cali has until the 26th or 27th. Still looking for the sad/sick eyes, any tiny hint of goo, and of course, any hint of a contraction.
She *has* been flicking her tail a lot tonight also... I need to skip out there and check on her ligs.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Pics of Cali taken today


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Pics of Cali taken today


Oh I have been starving for some Cali pictures 

Thank you !!!

She sure is getting big...wow


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pics of Cali taken today
> 
> 
> 
> Oh I have been starving for some Cali pictures
> 
> Thank you !!!
> 
> She sure is getting big...wow
Click to expand...

I think any bigger with her tiny frame and she just might blow!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Little update:

While palpating again, to be confident that her growing *kids* are still alive and well, I discovered that Cali's *kids* decided they were going to throw a pre-kidding party!
Okay, if you can't tell I am now certain that she is having at least TWINS!  YAY!!!!      Whilest her head was between my legs, I put my right hand on her lower lefthand side, and my left hand on the soft area on her upper righthand side. My right hand felt a decent kick involving at least 3 tiny hooves, and my left hand felt a couple good kicks involving 4 tiny hooves!!!  I really hope there is a third in there that I just wasn't able to feel moving, but hurray for at least twins!!!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Little update:
> 
> While palpating again, to be confident that her growing *kids* are still alive and well, I discovered that Cali's *kids* decided they were going to throw a pre-kidding party!
> Okay, if you can't tell I am now certain that she is having at least TWINS!  YAY!!!!      Whilest her head was between my legs, I put my right hand on her lower lefthand side, and my left hand on the soft area on her upper righthand side. My right hand felt a decent kick involving at least 3 tiny hooves, and my left hand felt a couple good kicks involving 4 tiny hooves!!!  I really hope there is a third in there that I just wasn't able to feel moving, but hurray for at least twins!!!


Aww I hope you get triplets like you want  

I bet your super excited ......


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little update:
> 
> While palpating again, to be confident that her growing *kids* are still alive and well, I discovered that Cali's *kids* decided they were going to throw a pre-kidding party!
> Okay, if you can't tell I am now certain that she is having at least TWINS!  YAY!!!!      Whilest her head was between my legs, I put my right hand on her lower lefthand side, and my left hand on the soft area on her upper righthand side. My right hand felt a decent kick involving at least 3 tiny hooves, and my left hand felt a couple good kicks involving 4 tiny hooves!!!  I really hope there is a third in there that I just wasn't able to feel moving, but hurray for at least twins!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Aww I hope you get triplets like you want
> 
> I bet your super excited ......
Click to expand...

Thanks, me too, but I am quite happy knowing that it IS more than a single. I am quite excited and getting more impatient by the day.
Have you been able to palpate Malina yet?


----------



## elevan

That poor little goat better pop soon, she looks kinda miserable...

Come on Cali, you can do it!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I'm really hoping Good Friday will be REALLY Good Friday for our little farm... I would really like to be able to go to church this Easter Sunday!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Little update:
> 
> While palpating again, to be confident that her growing *kids* are still alive and well, I discovered that Cali's *kids* decided they were going to throw a pre-kidding party!
> Okay, if you can't tell I am now certain that she is having at least TWINS!  YAY!!!!      Whilest her head was between my legs, I put my right hand on her lower lefthand side, and my left hand on the soft area on her upper righthand side. My right hand felt a decent kick involving at least 3 tiny hooves, and my left hand felt a couple good kicks involving 4 tiny hooves!!!  I really hope there is a third in there that I just wasn't able to feel moving, but hurray for at least twins!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Aww I hope you get triplets like you want
> 
> I bet your super excited ......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, me too, but I am quite happy knowing that it IS more than a single. I am quite excited and getting more impatient by the day.
> Have you been able to palpate Malina yet?
Click to expand...

I have but I really can't tell what is what its like feeling in the dark for something. I feel all the hooves but I can't tell exactly how many I am feeling. I wish I could maybe with more experience as time goes by I will be able to.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aww I hope you get triplets like you want
> 
> I bet your super excited ......
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, me too, but I am quite happy knowing that it IS more than a single. I am quite excited and getting more impatient by the day.
> Have you been able to palpate Malina yet?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have but I really can't tell what is what its like feeling in the dark for something. I feel all the hooves but I can't tell exactly how many I am feeling. I wish I could maybe with more experience as time goes by I will be able to.
Click to expand...

I haven't been able to make out individual hooves before tonight... If it weren't for the sheer force of their kicking, I don't think I would have been able to.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I hope that all the critters will be safe in the barn overnight. Just had a pack of coyote go though yowling up a storm.  *shudders* I hope the entire pack gets wiped out by something big and heavy... like a Mack Truck!
Yiick! I hate those vile, disgusting canine vermin!!!


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I hope that all the critters will be safe in the barn overnight. Just had a pack of coyote go though yowling up a storm.  *shudders* I hope the entire pack gets wiped out by something big and heavy... like a Mack Truck!
> Yiick! I hate those vile, disgusting canine vermin!!!


Some say that they have a sense of when goats or sheep are about to give birth...if it were me, I'd be checking the barn constantly tonight...


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that all the critters will be safe in the barn overnight. Just had a pack of coyote go though yowling up a storm.  *shudders* I hope the entire pack gets wiped out by something big and heavy... like a Mack Truck!
> Yiick! I hate those vile, disgusting canine vermin!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Some say that they have a sense of when goats or sheep are about to give birth...if it were me, I'd be checking the barn constantly tonight...
Click to expand...

I will be, by way of the tv monitor. If it looks/sounds like she or Maude is starting labor, then I will go out there.
Until I have the new 22, I don't go outside by myself. Too many BIG predators around here(Bear, Wolf, Mountain Lion) to go outside alone.


----------



## PJisaMom

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Until I have the new 22, I don't go outside by myself. Too many BIG predators around here(Bear, Wolf, Mountain Lion) to go outside alone.


Might I suggest a larger caliber weapon if you're facing down the BIG predators?  .38 at the minimum?    Mine's pink.  (So is my .22... but my .32 auto has pearl grips... and then... oh heck... it'll take too long to list them all here...  )

Good luck!  Been waiting for Cali news!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PJisaMom said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Until I have the new 22, I don't go outside by myself. Too many BIG predators around here(Bear, Wolf, Mountain Lion) to go outside alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Might I suggest a larger caliber weapon if you're facing down the BIG predators?  .38 at the minimum?    Mine's pink.  (So is my .22... but my .32 auto has pearl grips... and then... oh heck... it'll take too long to list them all here...  )
> 
> Good luck!  Been waiting for Cali news!
Click to expand...

This is capable of taking down the coyote & wolf
http://www.ruger.com/products/sr22/index.html

We are also looking at BEAR rifles/shotguns.  Something heavy duty that will take down the black bear and mountain lions with a single shot, without causing too much of a kick(no black eyes here)

*About Cali: * So am I...  I think she is going to wait until after Maude kids, which will force me to bring her to the vet, and on the way to the vet is when she will go into labor.... all to make me go cookoo.


----------



## elevan

I think pregnant goats get a "kick" out of making us cookoo


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Cali is starting to walk heavier... like her cargo is just about an unbearabe load.  Still no goo...  my sanity is wearing thin with this little girl.  Her girth is now equal to if not more than Momma's. 

Maude's teats are starting to get that rosey pink color back(like how they were while she was nursing), but her udder hasn't really started refilling yet... at least not that I can tell.  I noticed today that her vulva has disappeared.  Yes, you read that right, it has disappeared. her back end is completely flush.  Seems odd, but then again, this is all new to me.

I think Momma lost the pregnancy from the early November breeding... not exactly sure when, but I never saw a fetus... so I am guessing that it was fairly early on.  If she is pregnant now, it is more than likely only a couple months along... She was acting like she was in heat back in February, and she let Marly mount her.... so, if she is preggers... she should be kidding sometime in early to mid July.  We shall see.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Cali is starting to walk heavier... like her cargo is just about an unbearabe load.  Still no goo...  my sanity is wearing thin with this little girl.  Her girth is now equal to if not more than Momma's.
> 
> Maude's teats are starting to get that rosey pink color back(like how they were while she was nursing), but her udder hasn't really started refilling yet... at least not that I can tell.  I noticed today that her vulva has disappeared.  Yes, you read that right, it has disappeared. her back end is completely flush.  Seems odd, but then again, this is all new to me.
> 
> I think Momma lost the pregnancy from the early November breeding... not exactly sure when, but I never saw a fetus... so I am guessing that it was fairly early on.  If she is pregnant now, it is more than likely only a couple months along... She was acting like she was in heat back in February, and she let Marly mount her.... so, if she is preggers... she should be kidding sometime in early to mid July.  We shall see.


I feel your pain, I wish these girls would get busy if they are going to do something.  I didn't go any where today cause I was afraid to leave Malina alone. I updated some pictures on her thread if you want to see.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cali is starting to walk heavier... like her cargo is just about an unbearabe load.  Still no goo...  my sanity is wearing thin with this little girl.  Her girth is now equal to if not more than Momma's.
> 
> Maude's teats are starting to get that rosey pink color back(like how they were while she was nursing), but her udder hasn't really started refilling yet... at least not that I can tell.  I noticed today that her vulva has disappeared.  Yes, you read that right, it has disappeared. her back end is completely flush.  Seems odd, but then again, this is all new to me.
> 
> I think Momma lost the pregnancy from the early November breeding... not exactly sure when, but I never saw a fetus... so I am guessing that it was fairly early on.  If she is pregnant now, it is more than likely only a couple months along... She was acting like she was in heat back in February, and she let Marly mount her.... so, if she is preggers... she should be kidding sometime in early to mid July.  We shall see.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel your pain, I wish these girls would get busy if they are going to do something.  I didn't go any where today cause I was afraid to leave Malina alone. I updated some pictures on her thread if you want to see.
Click to expand...

I saw the ones of her pretending to be a human.  Love it when Maude does that for treats!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cali is starting to walk heavier... like her cargo is just about an unbearabe load.  Still no goo...  my sanity is wearing thin with this little girl.  Her girth is now equal to if not more than Momma's.
> 
> Maude's teats are starting to get that rosey pink color back(like how they were while she was nursing), but her udder hasn't really started refilling yet... at least not that I can tell.  I noticed today that her vulva has disappeared.  Yes, you read that right, it has disappeared. her back end is completely flush.  Seems odd, but then again, this is all new to me.
> 
> I think Momma lost the pregnancy from the early November breeding... not exactly sure when, but I never saw a fetus... so I am guessing that it was fairly early on.  If she is pregnant now, it is more than likely only a couple months along... She was acting like she was in heat back in February, and she let Marly mount her.... so, if she is preggers... she should be kidding sometime in early to mid July.  We shall see.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel your pain, I wish these girls would get busy if they are going to do something.  I didn't go any where today cause I was afraid to leave Malina alone. I updated some pictures on her thread if you want to see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw the ones of her pretending to be a human.  Love it when Maude does that for treats!
Click to expand...

I haven't tried giving Malina any treats, what do you offer for treats?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I feel your pain, I wish these girls would get busy if they are going to do something.  I didn't go any where today cause I was afraid to leave Malina alone. I updated some pictures on her thread if you want to see.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the ones of her pretending to be a human.  Love it when Maude does that for treats!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I haven't tried giving Malina any treats, what do you offer for treats?
Click to expand...

Chunks of apple, grapes, tomatoes, carrot, potato peelings, fresh green beans, various types of pea pods, lettuce, chard, and cabbage leaves, chunks of pear, chunks of melon, leaves from corn husks.... anything that I can hold in my hand.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I saw the ones of her pretending to be a human.  Love it when Maude does that for treats!
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't tried giving Malina any treats, what do you offer for treats?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chunks of apple, grapes, tomatoes, carrot, potato peelings, fresh green beans, various types of pea pods, lettuce, chard, and cabbage leaves, chunks of pear, chunks of melon, leaves from corn husks.... anything that I can hold in my hand.
Click to expand...

I will have to try those with her thanks


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

The secret magical weapon of choice around here is RAISINS!!
Even the rabbits go wild over them. The goats will practically strangle themselves for the sweet little things, which means they'll follow you practically anywhere if you put the raisins in a plastic jar or something and shake it to get their attention... 

It's a little Pied Piper-ish.


----------



## elevan

Duck Keeper said:
			
		

> The secret magical weapon of choice around here is RAISINS!!
> Even the rabbits go wild over them. The goats will practically strangle themselves for the sweet little things, which means they'll follow you practically anywhere if you put the raisins in a plastic jar or something and shake it to get their attention...
> 
> It's a little Pied Piper-ish.


Someone suggested raisins for my goats too...but they won't touch them    even if you shove them in their mouth so they can taste they just spit them out.  Hand them a dried out leaf though and they go crazy...go figure.


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Duck Keeper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The secret magical weapon of choice around here is RAISINS!!
> Even the rabbits go wild over them. The goats will practically strangle themselves for the sweet little things, which means they'll follow you practically anywhere if you put the raisins in a plastic jar or something and shake it to get their attention...
> 
> It's a little Pied Piper-ish.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone suggested raisins for my goats too...but they won't touch them    even if you shove them in their mouth so they can taste they just spit them out.  Hand them a dried out leaf though and they go crazy...go figure.
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm... You have finicky goats. 
I'll admit that it took a bit of training for a couple of my rabbits to figure out that they were something to like and get excited about - maybe you need to keep shoving them into the goat's mouths! Lol, just kidding. 
I figured since they were sweet that most animals liked them, who knew? And I totally understand the dried up leaf thing, mine go crazy over the crispy things too. The first time I saw them willingly go after the dried up junk I wondered what was wrong with them to even WANT that stuff! I had been picking dead leaves off of stalks and things and discarding them before giving them as treats. 


Edit: You know what? My goats HATED Nutri-Drench at first too until I taught them that the pump meant a shot of molasses flavored stuff. Now they freak out over that too. Training might actually work..?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

RabbleRoost Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Duck Keeper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The secret magical weapon of choice around here is RAISINS!!
> Even the rabbits go wild over them. The goats will practically strangle themselves for the sweet little things, which means they'll follow you practically anywhere if you put the raisins in a plastic jar or something and shake it to get their attention...
> 
> It's a little Pied Piper-ish.
> 
> 
> 
> Someone suggested raisins for my goats too...but they won't touch them    even if you shove them in their mouth so they can taste they just spit them out.  Hand them a dried out leaf though and they go crazy...go figure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmmmmm... You have finicky goats.
> I'll admit that it took a bit of training for a couple of my rabbits to figure out that they were something to like and get excited about - maybe you need to keep shoving them into the goat's mouths! Lol, just kidding.
> I figured since they were sweet that most animals liked them, who knew? And I totally understand the dried up leaf thing, mine go crazy over the crispy things too. The first time I saw them willingly go after the dried up junk I wondered what was wrong with them to even WANT that stuff! I had been picking dead leaves off of stalks and things and discarding them before giving them as treats.
> 
> 
> Edit: You know what? My goats HATED Nutri-Drench at first too until I taught them that the pump meant a shot of molasses flavored stuff. Now they freak out over that too. Training might actually work..?
Click to expand...

My goats prefer a pretty equal balance of tastes: sweet & tart, dried & juicy...
Basically, if they are fed as if they were my compost bin, they are VERY happy!


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

Ha, pretty much. 
Oooh, that's a nice *insert food stuff* in your hand, why don't you let me taste test that for you?

Goats seem to be addicted to the crispy crinkly wrappers of things. They figure out it hides food pretty quick I guess.


----------



## elevan

RabbleRoost Farm said:
			
		

> Ha, pretty much.
> Oooh, that's a nice *insert food stuff* in your hand, why don't you let me taste test that for you?
> 
> Goats seem to be addicted to the crispy crinkly wrappers of things. They figure out it hides food pretty quick I guess.


We call the dried leaves "goat chips"... you (goat) can't eat just one!

I must have weird goats cause they ignore wrappers too.  

Although last summer I sat on a bench and unwrapped a sandwich to eat and the horse snuck up behind me and stole it right outta my hands!!    She ate it roast beef and all! Ticked me off something fierce


----------



## RabbleRoost Farm

She's nearly a cannibal!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

... ... ... 

 ... ...  ... ... 

 ... ... 
This is now officially the " *Will Cali EVER Kid?!?!* " thread. :/


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

In the pic you posted on the 20th her udder looks like what I'd expect a ff's udder to look like 3 weeks out.  Either she's going to have a little ff udder and fill at the last minute or you have a while to wait!


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> [url]http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-066.gif[/url] ... ... ... [url]http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-066.gif[/url] ... ...  ... ... [url]http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSA/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-animated-066.gif[/url] ... ...
> This is now officially the " *Will Cali EVER Kid?!?!* " thread. :/


Yep, when you give up and decide it must never be going to happen!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> In the pic you posted on the 20th her udder looks like what I'd expect a ff's udder to look like 3 weeks out.  Either she's going to have a little ff udder and fill at the last minute or you have a while to wait!


If she goes that long, then she will be 2 weeks beyond due. I don't think she could have settled that long after being bred.... Thanksgiving was the LAST day the bucklings had access to her. so I really think that at the most she would be 1 week late. Like a few other people's does have been this year.... wonder if the earth quakes have had something to do with the elongated pregnancies this year..?  If it reaches May 4th and she still has not kidded, I *WILL* be taking her to the vet, for the safety of her & her kids.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Maybe because of the pygmy influence she's just not going to put on much of an udder her ff...


----------



## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Maybe because of the pygmy influence she's just not going to put on much of an udder her ff...


 either!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

All I know is: None of the kids are born yet, and we have 1 name picked out for the first doeling to be born on our farm: *Olivia* .


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> All I know is: None of the kids are born yet, and we have 1 name picked out for the first doeling to be born on our farm: *Olivia* .


Aww thats a beautiful name.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I know is: None of the kids are born yet, and we have 1 name picked out for the first doeling to be born on our farm: *Olivia* .
> 
> 
> 
> Aww thats a beautiful name.
Click to expand...

 It's my Dad's pick, after Olivia from The Waltons... I just hope that he doesn't want all the names this year to be Waltons... unless they are all doelings, and then I'm okay with that.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I know is: None of the kids are born yet, and we have 1 name picked out for the first doeling to be born on our farm: *Olivia* .
> 
> 
> 
> Aww thats a beautiful name.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's my Dad's pick, after Olivia from The Waltons... I just hope that he doesn't want all the names this year to be Waltons... unless they are all doelings, and then I'm okay with that.
Click to expand...

lol no doubt can you hear your self yelling John boy , and then at night...

Good night John boy lol


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aww thats a beautiful name.
> 
> 
> 
> It's my Dad's pick, after Olivia from The Waltons... I just hope that he doesn't want all the names this year to be Waltons... unless they are all doelings, and then I'm okay with that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> lol no doubt can you hear your self yelling John boy , and then at night...
> 
> Good night John boy lol
Click to expand...

LOL, it's the yelling, "Jim-Bob!!" that worries me! *insert theme from 'Deliverance' here*


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's my Dad's pick, after Olivia from The Waltons... I just hope that he doesn't want all the names this year to be Waltons... unless they are all doelings, and then I'm okay with that.
> 
> 
> 
> lol no doubt can you hear your self yelling John boy , and then at night...
> 
> Good night John boy lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL, it's the yelling, "Jim-Bob!!" that worries me! *insert theme from 'Deliverance' here*
Click to expand...

LOL yea thats another name i forgot about that. the John Boy stuck in my head most from watching it when I was a kid...


----------



## Cooperkeeper

Okay..this thread is like Crack!!  I am addicted.  I have to check several times a day to make sure I don't miss Cali's big day!! If it is making me this crazy..you must be NUTTY by now.  I am hoping to get my very first bottle babies in the next two weeks and am learning so much from all of you here.  Thanks to all.  C'mom Cali!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Yeah, I am *SOOO* just about ready for the assylum! 

I posted earlier in this thread that if May 4th comes around without Cali going into labor, we will be bringing her to the vet($90 office visit + anything done and/or administered) to help her deliver safely.


----------



## oakmarsh nigerians

"It's my Dad's pick, after Olivia from The Waltons... I just hope that he doesn't want all the names this year to be Waltons... unless they are all doelings, and then I'm okay with that."


I just read that all doelings seem to have longer gestations...so longer is a GOOD thing!


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Its your turn now TAG your it


----------



## phoenixmama

Cooperkeeper said:
			
		

> Okay..this thread is like Crack!!  I am addicted.  I have to check several times a day to make sure I don't miss Cali's big day!! If it is making me this crazy..you must be NUTTY by now.  I am hoping to get my very first bottle babies in the next two weeks and am learning so much from all of you here.  Thanks to all.  C'mom Cali!


Definitely, when it even gets the first-time posters out!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Cooperkeeper said:
			
		

> Okay..this thread is like Crack!!  I am addicted.  I have to check several times a day to make sure I don't miss Cali's big day!! If it is making me this crazy..you must be NUTTY by now.  I am hoping to get my very first bottle babies in the next two weeks and am learning so much from all of you here.  Thanks to all.  C'mom Cali!


BTW,  &  !!!  I feel so honored that my thread was the one who got your first post


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Its your turn now TAG your it


*CONGRATULATIONS!!!* to you & Malina!!  Happy belated birthday present!!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

oakmarsh nigerians said:
			
		

> "It's my Dad's pick, after Olivia from The Waltons... I just hope that he doesn't want all the names this year to be Waltons... unless they are all doelings, and then I'm okay with that."
> 
> 
> I just read that all doelings seem to have longer gestations...so longer is a GOOD thing!


I sure hope so! just don't want those girls to get too big for poor little Cali to pass safely!  Can you say, "  OOOOOUUUUCCCHHH!!!! "  Comparatively speaking, as it is, she is like a 7 yr old giving birth to average size babies....


----------



## babsbag

My last doe (for this month) just kidded this morning, 157 days. OMG, I was beginning to think she wasn't even bred, just fat. No goo, not much of an udder, and then this morning she started "whining" every few minutes and finally had stringy mucous.  5 hours later I had another buckling. So far it has been 6 bucks and 1 doe. 

Hopefully I am getting all the boys for you and Cali will have a doeling. I have a friend that had a doe that gave her triplets on day 161. She hand bred her so she knew the day. ADGA wouldn't register her with that date, said it must have been an error. Go figure. These goats make us crazy.

Good luck and fingers crossed for does.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

babsbag said:
			
		

> My last doe (for this month) just kidded this morning, 157 days. OMG, I was beginning to think she wasn't even bred, just fat. No goo, not much of an udder, and then this morning she started "whining" every few minutes and finally had stringy mucous.  5 hours later I had another buckling. So far it has been 6 bucks and 1 doe.
> 
> Hopefully I am getting all the boys for you and Cali will have a doeling. I have a friend that had a doe that gave her triplets on day 161. She hand bred her so she knew the day. ADGA wouldn't register her with that date, said it must have been an error. Go figure. These goats make us crazy.
> 
> Good luck and fingers crossed for does.


You know , Malina didn't get the big stringy mucus, just the little 3 inch one and then the next day she went and started pushing. We also had a Buck lol must be buck month.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> babsbag said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My last doe (for this month) just kidded this morning, 157 days. OMG, I was beginning to think she wasn't even bred, just fat. No goo, not much of an udder, and then this morning she started "whining" every few minutes and finally had stringy mucous.  5 hours later I had another buckling. So far it has been 6 bucks and 1 doe.
> 
> Hopefully I am getting all the boys for you and Cali will have a doeling. I have a friend that had a doe that gave her triplets on day 161. She hand bred her so she knew the day. ADGA wouldn't register her with that date, said it must have been an error. Go figure. These goats make us crazy.
> 
> Good luck and fingers crossed for does.
> 
> 
> 
> You know , Malina didn't get the big stringy mucus, just the little 3 inch one and then the next day she went and started pushing. We also had a Buck lol must be buck month.
Click to expand...

 Then I hope she waits until *May 1st*!!!!!

*Cali* - though over all udder size doesn't appear to be bigger from a quick glance, it has actually grown quite a bit.  I was noticing the other day that the area of attatchment(area where the udder attatches to the body, for those of you who didn't already know) is much more than it has appeared. I will work on getting some good pics on here later... once her royal highness has been fed. .... oh yeah... her attitude has started changing... and I sincerely hope it changes back once those babies are born!!!!


----------



## elevan

The attitude change could be your clue that kid(s) will be coming soon.  My girls tend to do that too soon before kidding (but soon before could be up to 2 weeks)...they got lovey again a few weeks after kidding.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

elevan said:
			
		

> The attitude change could be your clue that kid(s) will be coming soon.  My girls tend to do that too soon before kidding (but soon before could be up to 2 weeks)...they got lovey again a few weeks after kidding.


Malina turned crazy at the end she was even afraid of her own shadow, any tiny sound, she just totally freaked out.

She is still a little nervous very alert but allows us to pet her and the baby.


----------



## Dreaming Of Goats

Any updates?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

STILL no babies yet.
I will add the link to this reply, once I have the newest pics posted to our FB page. 

*Edited to add: * http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...83747622.52553.130986543621963&type=1&theater
Just click the right arrow(if it comes up with the picture surrounded with black, or the where it says Next at the top right of the photo to view the others taken today.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Well folks, looks like Cali is setting up to go either tonight or tomorrow night.
Her teats are plump & shiny, her udder(though small) is quite stretched(not really shiny, but I see more skin than hair), her eyes have that disoriented/sick/tired look, she pants a lot when she lays down, she lays down a lot more often, and she is picking the thickest/fluffiest spot to lay down.


----------



## Dreaming Of Goats

Finally!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Well folks, looks like Cali is setting up to go either tonight or tomorrow night.
> Her teats are plump & shiny, her udder(though small) is quite stretched(not really shiny, but I see more skin than hair), her eyes have that disoriented/sick/tired look, she pants a lot when she lays down, she lays down a lot more often, and she is picking the thickest/fluffiest spot to lay down.


My last doe did that for a week!


----------



## elevan




----------



## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well folks, looks like Cali is setting up to go either tonight or tomorrow night.
> Her teats are plump & shiny, her udder(though small) is quite stretched(not really shiny, but I see more skin than hair), her eyes have that disoriented/sick/tired look, she pants a lot when she lays down, she lays down a lot more often, and she is picking the thickest/fluffiest spot to lay down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My last doe did that for a week!
Click to expand...

okay, haven't you ever heard, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"?


----------



## wannacow




----------



## Livinwright Farm

When I last checked on Cali, 12midnight, her ligs were roughly 1/2 gone... and she got up to walk about 2 feet, squatted to pee, and stayed squatting for a minute after she was done peeing... hope to either wake up to her ligs completely gone & her in the beginning of contraction(preferable, so we can record the first goat birth on our farm) or for her to have kidded the doelings safely on her own...(yeah, wishful thinking, but really hoping for doelings!!!).   Come on May Day Babies!!!!


----------



## wannacow




----------



## Dreaming Of Goats

Anything? I think she needs encouragement....

GO CALI!!!!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

No babies yet, her ligs are a little further gone than they were at midnight... If I were to give a fraction I would say about 4/5... she is out in the yard, and picking odd places to lay down.. like nestling in between rocks.


----------



## jodief100

Go Cali!  Go Cali!


----------



## elevan

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Go Cali!  Go Cali!
> 
> http://www.pic4ever.com/images/19.gif


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Well, I finally heard back from the woman we got Momma, Maude, Marly, Pup & Cali from.....
Here is what she wrote:
_ "Hi there,
Thanks so much. Those pictures are so cute. They look wonderfully fat, healthy and happy. You had quite a first winter with them so much snow !!.
Who was the papa? Okay, here is the deal. Yes, the kids all have the same Dad.
Momma and Maude are sisters.
I did not get them from an auction house. The rip on Maude ear is from a dog bite! When she was in heat she picked a fight with our dog, really, and he had no chance but to fight back. She pinned him to a wall and was butting him mercilessly. Seems she was mad he wasn't a billy. Other than that one time they always got along llke the best of friends. He tore a hole right threw her ear and then ran for the hills." _
So much for any of the babies not being inbreds.... well... actually... if Marly is Momma's nephew... is that technically inbreeding or is it considered line breeding?  And how does that work for Cali's kids? Since Marly would be their father & Uncle...???
No matter how you slice it, we now *NEED* to get a Nigerian buck & some additional Nigerian does to widen the genetic pool. Hope these babies aren't born with 5 legs!


----------



## chubbydog811

Uh oh! That's not good. Definitely needing some new blood in your herd!

I wouldn't worry too much about 5 legged kids  - I don't think one "oops" will give you too much trouble. Just make sure if you retain any kids, they don't get bred back to a close relative. Some people inbreed/line breed to bring out a certain good trait(s), but usually it is very selective (unless they have no clue, then that is when you run into problems). 
I had a pygmy buck/doe pair that I started out with. He bred the doe through the fence before I got them, and she had trip does(one died during birth though). When the kid I kept was about 4 months old, she hopped the (4 1/2 foot) fence and bred with her father. Kids came out normal - almost too nice - but I stopped the line there and sold the whole herd. 

Good luck with all of that!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

chubbydog811 said:
			
		

> Uh oh! That's not good. Definitely needing some new blood in your herd!


I agree, Sarah


----------



## elevan

Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...I wouldn't think you'd see 5 legged kids though  

Personally if it were me, I'd get a new buck and either wether or sell Marly.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

elevan said:
			
		

> Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...


What makes it a 50/50 chance?  Genetics isn't my strongest subject and I'm having a tough time wrapping my brain around how that would work.  Can you elaborate?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...I wouldn't think you'd see 5 legged kids though
> 
> Personally if it were me, I'd get a new buck and either wether or sell Marly.


I would wether Marly & Pup, but my Mom wants to keep Marly intact to keep as a stud for people who just want to freshen their doe/does in the fall... she is hoping that we can find someone willing to work a trade(stud service for the kid/kids)   I would prefer just to trade him for another buck/buckling.
We are keeping our eyes open for any free to cheap does/doelings and bucks/bucklings(NEED horns intact!)... _hint Hint *HINT*_ to anyone in NH, VT, MA, or ME that wants to give me a really early b-day present!!


----------



## elevan

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...
> 
> 
> 
> What makes it a 50/50 chance?  Genetics isn't my strongest subject and I'm having a tough time wrapping my brain around how that would work.  Can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

Inbreeding is like a toss of the coin...hence why I said 50/50...not actual math sorry.  Sometimes you'll get good results and sometimes you'll get something less than desirable, especially when you don't know the full lineage of the goats involved.

Recessive genes are more likely to show up with inbreeding...which is why unless you know quite a bit about the lineage of the 2 that you are breeding you really shouldn't knowingly go there.  If you have all the information for let's say 5 or more generations back (10 generations is better) then it's entirely possible to inbreed for specific characteristics.

eta: Linebreeding, however, is a much better method when you need to breed relatives.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Back to Cali:
About how long from when her bum looks swollen and her pooch looks all swollen & puckered could I expect the heavy stuff to begin?


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

elevan said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...
> 
> 
> 
> What makes it a 50/50 chance?  Genetics isn't my strongest subject and I'm having a tough time wrapping my brain around how that would work.  Can you elaborate?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Inbreeding is like a toss of the coin...hence why I said 50/50...not actual math sorry.  Sometimes you'll get good results and sometimes you'll get something less than desirable, especially when you don't know the full lineage of the goats involved.
> 
> Recessive genes are more likely to show up with inbreeding...which is why unless you know quite a bit about the lineage of the 2 that you are breeding you really shouldn't knowingly go there.  If you have all the information for let's say 5 or more generations back (10 generations is better) then it's entirely possible to inbreed for specific characteristics.
> 
> eta: Linebreeding, however, is a much better method when you need to breed relatives.
Click to expand...

I understand the purpose and risks of line breeding/inbreeding, etc... I was just wondering where the 50/50 odds came from.  

I don't have the foggiest about actual heritability percentages either, but I disagree that it's as random as a coin toss.  That's what linebreeding is all about... increasing the odds of the progeny inheriting desirable characteristics.  It's going to increase the heritability of any particular trait the parents possess, dominant or recessive, good or bad, because closely related animals are going to share many more similarities in genotype than unrelated animals.


----------



## elevan

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What makes it a 50/50 chance?  Genetics isn't my strongest subject and I'm having a tough time wrapping my brain around how that would work.  Can you elaborate?
> 
> 
> 
> Inbreeding is like a toss of the coin...hence why I said 50/50...not actual math sorry.  Sometimes you'll get good results and sometimes you'll get something less than desirable, especially when you don't know the full lineage of the goats involved.
> 
> Recessive genes are more likely to show up with inbreeding...which is why unless you know quite a bit about the lineage of the 2 that you are breeding you really shouldn't knowingly go there.  If you have all the information for let's say 5 or more generations back (10 generations is better) then it's entirely possible to inbreed for specific characteristics.
> 
> eta: Linebreeding, however, is a much better method when you need to breed relatives.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I understand the purpose and risks of line breeding/inbreeding, etc... I was just wondering where the 50/50 odds came from.
> 
> I don't have the foggiest about actual heritability percentages either, but I disagree that it's as random as a coin toss.  That's what linebreeding is all about... increasing the odds of the progeny inheriting desirable characteristics.  It's going to increase the heritability of any particular trait the parents possess, dominant or recessive, good or bad, because closely related animals are going to share many more similarities in genotype than unrelated animals.
Click to expand...

Inbreeding and Linebreeding are not the same thing (though similar).

I agree with what you've said about linebreeding wholeheartedly.  However when you just have a random act of INbreeding like Livinwright Farm had then it really is a toss of the coin.

Livinwright Farm - Can't really say for sure...could be tomorrow...could be another week...


----------



## chubbydog811

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...I wouldn't think you'd see 5 legged kids though
> 
> Personally if it were me, I'd get a new buck and either wether or sell Marly.
> 
> 
> 
> I would wether Marly & Pup, but my Mom wants to keep Marly intact to keep as a stud for people who just want to freshen their doe/does in the fall... she is hoping that we can find someone willing to work a trade(stud service for the kid/kids)   I would prefer just to trade him for another buck/buckling.
> We are keeping our eyes open for any free to cheap does/doelings and bucks/bucklings(NEED horns intact!)... _hint Hint *HINT*_ to anyone in NH, VT, MA, or ME that wants to give me a really early b-day present!!
Click to expand...

Keep trying!  I already told you my requirements, but after all the damage he has caused, can't let him go for free...(seriously, what animal goes through the side of a $*#% barn?!) 
My freezer is calling his name (as well as the neighbors offer of a bbq after the he gets his fire permit)


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm - Can't really say for sure...could be tomorrow...could be another week...


Well, I can guarantee you that it won't be another week! This precious little girl has until Wednesday night to get those kids out. If she hasn't had them by Thursday morning, she will be taken to the vet an hour's drive one way from me, and we'll let the vet decide what the best course of action is for her.
I do not want Cali going too far beyond a week past due. With how young and small she is, if the kids get too big, she won't be able to pass them. Better to bring her up for an extraction, than to require an emergency extraction and not be able to get her there in time to save her or the babies.


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm - Can't really say for sure...could be tomorrow...could be another week...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I can guarantee you that it won't be another week! This precious little girl has until Wednesday night to get those kids out. If she hasn't had them by Thursday morning, she will be taken to the vet an hour's drive one way from me, and we'll let the vet decide what the best course of action is for her.
> I do not want Cali going too far beyond a week past due. With how young and small she is, if the kids get too big, she won't be able to pass them. Better to bring her up for an extraction, than to require an emergency extraction and not be able to get her there in time to save her or the babies.
Click to expand...

I can't remember what date Thanksgiving was last year...how many days along do you think she is?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

chubbydog811 said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...inbreeding can and does happen and shouldn't be considered a complete disaster...you've got a 50/50 chance of inherited problems being increased...I wouldn't think you'd see 5 legged kids though
> 
> Personally if it were me, I'd get a new buck and either wether or sell Marly.
> 
> 
> 
> I would wether Marly & Pup, but my Mom wants to keep Marly intact to keep as a stud for people who just want to freshen their doe/does in the fall... she is hoping that we can find someone willing to work a trade(stud service for the kid/kids)   I would prefer just to trade him for another buck/buckling.
> We are keeping our eyes open for any free to cheap does/doelings and bucks/bucklings(NEED horns intact!)... _hint Hint *HINT*_ to anyone in NH, VT, MA, or ME that wants to give me a really early b-day present!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Keep trying!  I already told you my requirements, but after all the damage he has caused, can't let him go for free...(seriously, what animal goes through the side of a $*#% barn?!)
> My freezer is calling his name (as well as the neighbors offer of a bbq after the he gets his fire permit)
Click to expand...

Hey, I told you that I thought your price was a fair one!  You are asking only $25 more for him than what we paid for each of our existing herd members.
I understand that some goats are bound for the freezer... I just really need a new gene pool added into my herd.
Also, we are not the only people from New England on here... so I can keep trying! 
Hopefully someone out there has a doe/doeling or buck/buckling that isn't breed standard for colors or is a mix breed that would be willing to help me & my little farm out.  we don't really care about coloration that much, and as long as the mix of breeds aren't too large(unless it's a doe), we don't really care about that either.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm - Can't really say for sure...could be tomorrow...could be another week...
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I can guarantee you that it won't be another week! This precious little girl has until Wednesday night to get those kids out. If she hasn't had them by Thursday morning, she will be taken to the vet an hour's drive one way from me, and we'll let the vet decide what the best course of action is for her.
> I do not want Cali going too far beyond a week past due. With how young and small she is, if the kids get too big, she won't be able to pass them. Better to bring her up for an extraction, than to require an emergency extraction and not be able to get her there in time to save her or the babies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't remember what date Thanksgiving was last year...how many days along do you think she is?
Click to expand...

If Cali settled the last day she was with the boys, and not a day or two later, then Sunday, April 24th marked 150 days... making today Day 157.


----------



## chubbydog811

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> chubbydog811 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would wether Marly & Pup, but my Mom wants to keep Marly intact to keep as a stud for people who just want to freshen their doe/does in the fall... she is hoping that we can find someone willing to work a trade(stud service for the kid/kids)   I would prefer just to trade him for another buck/buckling.
> We are keeping our eyes open for any free to cheap does/doelings and bucks/bucklings(NEED horns intact!)... _hint Hint *HINT*_ to anyone in NH, VT, MA, or ME that wants to give me a really early b-day present!!
> 
> 
> 
> Keep trying!  I already told you my requirements, but after all the damage he has caused, can't let him go for free...(seriously, what animal goes through the side of a $*#% barn?!)
> My freezer is calling his name (as well as the neighbors offer of a bbq after the he gets his fire permit)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, I told you that I thought your price was a fair one!  You are asking only $25 more for him than what we paid for each of our existing herd members.
> I understand that some goats are bound for the freezer... I just really need a new gene pool added into my herd.
> Also, we are not the only people from New England on here... so I can keep trying!
> Hopefully someone out there has a doe/doeling or buck/buckling that isn't breed standard for colors or is a mix breed that would be willing to help me & my little farm out.  we don't really care about coloration that much, and as long as the mix of breeds aren't too large(unless it's a doe), we don't really care about that either.
Click to expand...

Yes, yes. I'm just playing (stupid internet for not making it easy to show that lol)! I really hope you find some nice goats for your herd! If I hear of any, I'll send you their info!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

chubbydog811 said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chubbydog811 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keep trying!  I already told you my requirements, but after all the damage he has caused, can't let him go for free...(seriously, what animal goes through the side of a $*#% barn?!)
> My freezer is calling his name (as well as the neighbors offer of a bbq after the he gets his fire permit)
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I told you that I thought your price was a fair one!  You are asking only $25 more for him than what we paid for each of our existing herd members.
> I understand that some goats are bound for the freezer... I just really need a new gene pool added into my herd.
> Also, we are not the only people from New England on here... so I can keep trying!
> Hopefully someone out there has a doe/doeling or buck/buckling that isn't breed standard for colors or is a mix breed that would be willing to help me & my little farm out.  we don't really care about coloration that much, and as long as the mix of breeds aren't too large(unless it's a doe), we don't really care about that either.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, yes. I'm just playing (stupid internet for not making it easy to show that lol)! I really hope you find some nice goats for your herd! If I hear of any, I'll send you their info!
Click to expand...

I know, that is why I played back!  Like this: 

  

Me too! And thanks, Sarah! I appreciate it!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

elevan said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inbreeding is like a toss of the coin...hence why I said 50/50...not actual math sorry.  Sometimes you'll get good results and sometimes you'll get something less than desirable, especially when you don't know the full lineage of the goats involved.
> 
> Recessive genes are more likely to show up with inbreeding...which is why unless you know quite a bit about the lineage of the 2 that you are breeding you really shouldn't knowingly go there.  If you have all the information for let's say 5 or more generations back (10 generations is better) then it's entirely possible to inbreed for specific characteristics.
> 
> eta: Linebreeding, however, is a much better method when you need to breed relatives.
> 
> 
> 
> I understand the purpose and risks of line breeding/inbreeding, etc... I was just wondering where the 50/50 odds came from.
> 
> I don't have the foggiest about actual heritability percentages either, but I disagree that it's as random as a coin toss.  That's what linebreeding is all about... increasing the odds of the progeny inheriting desirable characteristics.  It's going to increase the heritability of any particular trait the parents possess, dominant or recessive, good or bad, because closely related animals are going to share many more similarities in genotype than unrelated animals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Inbreeding and Linebreeding are not the same thing (though similar).
> 
> I agree with what you've said about linebreeding wholeheartedly.  However when you just have a random act of INbreeding like Livinwright Farm had then it really is a toss of the coin.
Click to expand...

How can it be random when such closely related animals share a more similar phenotype than less closely related animals?  Sure, you're not purposely breeding for certain traits, but brother and sister will share common characteristics all the same.  Linebreeding is just INbreeding used responsibly and with a plan.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I think I understand what Emily is saying about the difference between purposefully line breeding *vs* what happened here with accidental inbreeding.

Line breeding for specific genetic or character traits isn't random, and gets desired traits passed on with little to no issue.

Accidental inbreeding can be 50/50 as to what traits will be passed on. Good/Bad, dominant/recessive.

Am I understanding you correctly, Emily?


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> I think I understand what Emily is saying about the difference between purposefully line breeding *vs* what happened here with accidental inbreeding.
> 
> Line breeding for specific genetic or character traits isn't random, and gets desired traits passed on with little to no issue.
> 
> Accidental inbreeding can be 50/50 as to what traits will be passed on. Good/Bad, dominant/recessive.
> 
> Am I understanding you correctly, Emily?


Wether or not you did it on purpose or on accident doesn't change heritability.  That makes no difference.  Linebreeding and inbreeding are not different, except that you wouldn't breed brother/sister, son/mother.  The genetic principals are exactly the same whether you're working towards a goal or someone accidentally got bred through a fence.


----------



## PattySh

I linebreed my cocker spaniels and  I use aunt/nephew breedings  often. I have enough years into my lines that we don't have hidden recessives lurking. If you do line breeding can accentuate the bad as well as the good. Depending what the recessive trait is you can multiply it with terrible consequences. Line breeding defines your "type" and is a good method at least with dogs. I haven't gotten that far with my goats. I feel that like breeds like, if you have defects you will definately see them in close breedings.I wouldn't intentionally breed brother and sister but with unknown history breeding is kindoff a crapshoot starting out. Depends on your plans. For us we bought grade goats and are breeding for the milk.  I have history on some of them. Obviously we don't want sickly kids or goats with defects.  I am breeding for small size, easy to handle docile homestead goats that are easy to milk and milk well.  So my plan was to breed to Silas our Alpine/Togg then breed his resulting  doeling offspring to a new male. If I was dealing with purebreds I am sure I would attempt to breed to breed specification and entertain linebreeding and if I had pedigrees (like the cockers) I love to dabble in colors, with the cockers I had alot of fun establishing a line of chocolate, nice chocolate by infusing black to strengthen the color and coat texture.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

oh, well... 

Anywho...


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> I linebreed my cocker spaniels and  I use aunt/nephew breedings  often. I have enough years into my lines that we don't have hidden recessives lurking. If you do line breeding can accentuate the bad as well as the good. Depending what the recessive trait is you can multiply it with terrible consequences. Line breeding defines your "type" and is a good method at least with dogs. I haven't gotten that far with my goats. I feel that like breeds like, if you have defects you will definately see them in close breedings.I wouldn't intentionally breed brother and sister *but with unknown history breeding is kindoff a crapshoot starting out.* Depends on your plans. For us we bought grade goats and are breeding for the milk.  I have history on some of them. Obviously we don't want sickly kids or goats with defects.  I am breeding for small size, easy to handle docile homestead goats that are easy to milk and milk well.  So my plan was to breed to Silas our Alpine/Togg then breed his resulting  doeling offspring to a new male. If I was dealing with purebreds I am sure I would attempt to breed to breed specification and entertain linebreeding and if I had pedigrees (like the cockers) I love to dabble in colors, with the cockers I had alot of fun establishing a line of chocolate, nice chocolate by infusing black to strengthen the color and coat texture.


That is what I have been trying to say (bolded)


----------



## elevan

Now, let's move past the genetic hijack...sorry Livinwright!

Come on Cali!!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Now, let's move past the genetic hijack...sorry Livinwright!
> 
> Come on Cali!!!


Yeah, really!  
... 
... 
  NO worries!!

still waiting.... 

 ... ...


----------



## PattySh

Well the kid(s)is going to be little and cute no matter what........unless it gets here full grown lol. I actually wouldn't worry about the health of the kid.  Your goats look  very healthy . I was just making the point that I wouldn't continue to breed them together on purpose. Come on Cali!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Well the kid(s)is going to be little and cute no matter what........unless it gets here full grown lol. I actually wouldn't worry about the health of the kid.  Your goats look  very healthy . I was just making the point that I wouldn't continue to breed them together on purpose. Come on Cali!


Oh, trust me, we had not intended on them breeding last fall.... but we hadn't gotten the stalls finished in time... This fall we plan on breeding the girls to a completely unrelated buck.


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> Well the kid(s)is going to be little and cute no matter what........*unless it gets here full grown lol*.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> PattySh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well the kid(s)is going to be little and cute no matter what........*unless it gets here full grown lol*.
Click to expand...

I have to admit, I am beginning to wonder!


----------



## PattySh

We had a HUGE accidental breeding when my daughter had her pygmies. My angora buck broke out of a  6 ft chain link enclosure and into their  6 ft chain link enclosure!!  Took both gates down. Within one nite he bred several, I forgot how many but I think at least three  pygmies conceived that very nite. The size difference was huge so we were some worried. It all turned out good tho and the resulting pygoras (called them mutts then lol) were totally cute. Most of them were chocolate like the angora and a couple of blacks.  Sold them as pets.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Well, we are considering bringing her up to the vet today instead of on Thursday... we need to drive 2.5 hrs away tomorrow, and I just don't feel comfortable with us going so far away where she still hasn't kidded.
I want to know from the vet that her babies are still nice and strong, and that she could safely go through labor without us being here. Depending on what he finds, he may choose to induce her... which, as long as the babies are developed enough, is FINE with me!  I will update once we know more.


----------



## aggieterpkatie

I would strongly urge you to not induce her.  Unless you are 100% sure of her breeding date, you risk inducing early and you'll lose the kids.  I know you're worried about her being overdue, but she'll kid when she's ready.  Going to day 158 is really late, so I'm doubtful this is really day 158.  

Heck, I wanted the vet to induce my ewe this year when she prolapsed right around her expected lambing time.  The breeder SAW her be bred, but luckily the vet said he wouldn't induce.  It's a good thing too, because she was actually bred a heat cycle later and didn't settle on the breeding the breeder saw.  

Unless you hand breed and you know with 100% certainty that the buck had absolutely no way of breeding her after the date you saw, then I would not induce.


----------



## elevan

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I would strongly urge you to not induce her.  Unless you are 100% sure of her breeding date, you risk inducing early and you'll lose the kids.  I know you're worried about her being overdue, but she'll kid when she's ready.  Going to day 158 is really late, so I'm doubtful this is really day 158.
> 
> Heck, I wanted the vet to induce my ewe this year when she prolapsed right around her expected lambing time.  The breeder SAW her be bred, but luckily the vet said he wouldn't induce.  It's a good thing too, because she was actually bred a heat cycle later and didn't settle on the breeding the breeder saw.
> 
> Unless you hand breed and you know with 100% certainty that the buck had absolutely no way of breeding her after the date you saw, then I would not induce.


The very last day that they had the buck with the girls was Thanksgiving...given that a goat can actually settle 2-3 days after breeding...today could very well be day 155 instead of 158 which would mean she's not really that overdue...

Livinwright Farm...are you absolutely sure that there is no way that Cali could have bred through the fence after you removed the buckling?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I am not hoping for him to induce her... I want to make that clear. just, that if he decides to, after fully examining her, then I am okay with that.

Trust me, the LAST day she was accessable to the bucklings was Thanksgiving day... so she IS on day 155-159 today.  All part of why I want to get her to the vet!
She is only 9 months old as of today, and I know that first timers typically go a week late, and that pregnancies containing 2 or more doelings go a week or so late... I just don't want her kids to get too big for her to deliver safely.


Emily: I am sure that the bucklings could not breed her through their stalls!  she has been outside or in the common area of the barn with them locked up(unless she was outside, then they were in the common area). As right now we don't have 2 seperate fenced areas... so this is the best I could do. There is plywood on their stall doors that covers the bottom half of said doors.


----------



## elevan

Ok...then let us know how the vet visit goes


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Ok...then let us know how the vet visit goes


Just called the vet to find out when we could come in, and they told me that they don't really deal with livestock anymore(other than with people that have delt with them for years)... I told them the situation and am now waiting for them to call me back. I informed them that I will NOT bring Cali to the vet that practices reiki...just not going to happen. Hopefully they call back soon and say to go ahead and bring her in. What is happening in this world that you can't find a livestock vet when you need one, not to mention a decent one?


----------



## elevan

I really wish vets that stop doing livestock on a whim would put an ad in the paper or something announcing it.  Our old vet did that to us too..."we're not seeing livestock anymore, but we'll still see your dogs"

We found a new vet who we just love and their primary practice is livestock not dogs.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Just got the call back.
He said that she sounds like she is right at the end. 
That it isn't abnormal for a doeling so young to go a week to two weeks past due. 
That we should definitely have someone check in on her a couple times through the day tomorrow. 
That as long as she doesn't have any discharge and doesn't appear to be stressed she is alright.
He also said that once the babies are born we can go up and get the BoSe injections from him, and whatever else might be required.

My mind is a little more at ease, still not real happy that I couldn't bring her in to find out how her babies are doing or get her checked over, though.  :/ oh well.


----------



## elevan

Time to look for a new goat vet or an experienced breeder nearby that is willing to help you out...


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I was really hoping to have an ultrasound done.... I want to know how many are in there & if it looks like there could be complications(tangled legs n' such).
Wish there *was* a livestock vet around here(aside from the one that practices reiki, and even she is primarily for house pets).  At least I know that I will be able to get perscriptions from the guy in Fryeburg if/when needed.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Can you see the babies still moving around in her?

For me this was not an indication, Gibbs was moving right up till he was born during labor he was still kicking away. But I think if there is 2 they can't move as much. When she does have the baby you know everyone kept saying don't panic lol well I did I panicked but I kept talking my self down to take a breath , clear my mind and just help her.

She did all the work I just guided the baby out I didn't really pull. 

Gibbs head was coming out but I couldn't see his legs i put one finger in once the head was out it was loose enough so I didnt have to stretch her and i just used one finger to find his leg, but I was never able to find the second leg and thats when I panicked and I decided to put my right hand over his head and my left under the one leg I just pushed down as she had a contraction she was able to push him out like that when I saw his leg I slowly worked it out it was stuck to his side but it didn't hurt him at all.

I think they are really flexible when they are so tiny he didn't even have swollen joints and he stood up with in a few seconds after being born.

She didn't even bleed much at all just a few drops and that was it and then a little discharge the day after.....

Right when you give up thinking she just isnt going to have it is when they do. 

I was ready to throw in the towel for Malina and then pow her ligs were completely gone. It is a distinct feeling so different from feeling the ligs you will know without a doubt when they are gone.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I've got it! Cali is just waiting for Mothers' Day to go into labor!!! She IS pampered and a little royal highness... perhaps she thinks the day is meant for her?!?!


----------



## fanov8

Anything new?  I'm quite tired of popcorn. LOL


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Nothing yet... It is almost to the point where I want to go out there and squeeze her! 

ETA: well, not nothing.. I hope this is something!  roughly an hour ago she was standing with her back legs staggered(one pretty normal, the other stretched back) and she started almost rocking back and forward like she does when she is scritching her sides on a stall door... only this was in the middle of the common area, nothing for her to scritch against....    possibly getting the babies in position for labor???


----------



## elevan

Sounds like she may be positioning the kids...


----------



## fanov8

got my toes crossed for you too!


----------



## rebelINny

Definitely getting the kid inposition. My one doe did this and she kidded the next day. Good luck!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

rebelINny said:
			
		

> Definitely getting the kid inposition. My one doe did this and *she kidded the next day*. Good luck!


Oh please, oh please, oh please!!!!     Think *PINK* everyone!!


----------



## Dreaming Of Goats

Anything yet?


----------



## oakmarsh nigerians

pink.......................


----------



## Cooperkeeper

Ca-ali, Ca-ali, Ca-ali...c'mon sweet girl..you can do it!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Her tail is almost constantly curled slightly backwards.. with tiny breaks for literally half a minute of down and swishing... her poofy pooch is opening up every so often... she can't seem to get comfortable(who could at her size & girth) I haven't noticed her pass the plug yet(slept from 4-9am), and no signs of goo.. at least not yet.  C'mon Cali! Please go by the end of Mothers' Day!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

*@ cooperkeeper:* 

 &


----------



## elevan

Looks like you're probably gonna get a baby goat(s) for Mother's Day


----------



## chandasue

I had one last year that was stretching and pawing but no goo at all. I figured I had at least another couple days. She kidded 4 hours later while I was gone to the city. Doe code at it's finest...


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Looks like you're probably gonna get a baby goat(s) for Mother's Day


I sure hope so!!

Also, Maude doesn't usually paw at the ground before laying down(she was doing this every time she went to lay down this afternoon), she is pregnant, and should have been due the same time as Cali... her udder isn't doing much in the way of building yet... BUT I didn't get to see how/when she started building with her FF... for all I know she normally goes late and doesn't bag up until the is right about to kid or just after...


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like you're probably gonna get a baby goat(s) for Mother's Day
> 
> 
> 
> I sure hope so!!
> 
> Also, Maude doesn't usually paw at the ground before laying down(she was doing this every time she went to lay down this afternoon), she is pregnant, and should have been due the same time as Cali... her udder isn't doing much in the way of building yet... BUT I didn't get to see how/when she started building with her FF... for all I know she normally goes late and doesn't bag up until the is right about to kid or just after...
Click to expand...

Lilly literally built and filled her udder 12 hours prior to giving birth to Maggie...


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well folks, looks like Cali is setting up to go either tonight or tomorrow night.
> Her teats are plump & shiny, her udder(though small) is quite stretched(not really shiny, but I see more skin than hair), her eyes have that disoriented/sick/tired look, she pants a lot when she lays down, she lays down a lot more often, and she is picking the thickest/fluffiest spot to lay down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My last doe did that for a week!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> okay, haven't you ever heard, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"?
Click to expand...



Don't worry, the doe code has fooled us all!


----------



## elevan

Any updates today?


----------



## PattySh

Livingwright Farms, check the buy/sell posting, my daughter brought home an "extra" nigerian buckling today!! He has horns and is cheap!

Hoping you are in hte barn delivering kids!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Livingwright Farms, check the buy/sell posting, my daughter brought home an "extra" nigerian buckling today!! He has horns and is cheap!
> 
> Hoping you are in hte barn delivering kids!


I posted on your BST posting... wish we had room for 1 more buckling right now, but we just picked up chubbydog811(Sarah)'s Nigigora(or Pygora) buck. 

I wish I was out watching babies being born... nothing yet... I am starting to really worry for her, but she seems fine... if she at all starts to look off or gets a high temp, we will drive her to the closest livestock vet and pay the piper.


----------



## PattySh

Glad you found a little buck. I  thought of you today when we bought this little herd because they was an "extra" buckling. Your buck is adorable, glad you were able to find one. We'll find a home for this little guy, he's awfully cute.


----------



## ksj0225




----------



## Livinwright Farm

Took Cali's temp this morning: 102.4 ... and we are still waiting.... Seriously, how far past day 150 *can* she go?!?!  By all calculations she is somewhere between day 163 & 166... this is CRAZY!!! I KNOW there was NO chance of her breeding after Thanksgiving!! What is going on?!?!

She did start a new odd behaviour Sunday... she was nibble cleaning her legs and side, and then started mouthing and pulling on her teats... I assume trying to stimulate them in preperation for her little ones..???


----------



## aggieterpkatie

Hate to say it but it sounds to me she did not get bred when you think she did.  She's either not bred or she got bred at a later date.  Stranger things have happened!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Hate to say it but it sounds to me she did not get bred when you think she did.  She's either not bred or she got bred at a later date.  Stranger things have happened!


If she settled 3-4 days post breeding she can go another 2 days at least... the vet an hour's drive one way away fronm me, who has worked with goats who were accidentally bred very young(like Cali), said that is is not abnormal/unusual for a doeling so young to go 2 weeks past due.

I know that she IS pregnant, felt the babies move on more than one occassion(upper right side & lower left side simultaneously), feeling backs/heads/bums and hooves.
I really can't see how she could have been bred after thanklsgiving, given that she was not out at the same time as the boys from Black Friday through February. We are just waiting for her to pop!


----------



## helmstead

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> Hate to say it but it sounds to me she did not get bred when you think she did.  She's either not bred or she got bred at a later date.  Stranger things have happened!


I agree, and if by some far stretch you are right about her breeding date...regardless of what your vet is saying, there's a BIG problem.

People have also been sure of feeling kids, when they weren't, and months later had to admit it.  Goats are masters of "made ya look!"


----------



## aggieterpkatie

helmstead said:
			
		

> People have also been sure of feeling kids, when they weren't, and months later had to admit it.  Goats are masters of "made ya look!"


I sold a buck to some people last year and they were keeping me updated on when their doe kidded.  Well, I kept getting texts saying, "Any day now!" and "Her udder is huge!" and then nothing!  She didn't kid last year, and I know the buck was proven, so it's not him.  Same rigamaroll this year. The buck sired some kids with their friend's doe, but their doe hasn't kidded yet. About a month ago they texted me nearly every night saying, "I think it's tonight!" and still nothing.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

I know how someone could mistake gas or muscle movement for a kid moving, but when you feel 3 & 4 distinct hooves kicking & pushing against your hand... that is unmistakeable.  If she hasn't kidded by the end of the month, I will take her down to the livestock vet in Pembroke for analysis & potentially an ultrasound(if they do them there).

We had been good about having Cali in the stall that she couldn't get under(extra board along the bottom so chicks couldn't even get in with her).  *BUT* for the first week or two after Thanksgiving she had been in a different stall... so, *IF* she managed to get out of her stall and in with the boys, which wasn't her first choice when she squirmed out... then we are talking another 2 weeks. When she used to squirm out of her stall she would squirm into her mom's(Momma) and try to nurse. 
Also, I was *just* looking through my records, and Cali *was* out in the community section with the group on January 21st. There was no mounting _observed_ that day though, just nibbling on hemlock branches to their hearts' content, and when finished, Cali was placed back in her squirm-under-proof stall.  *IF*(big, Big, BIG IF) the boys managed to attack her that day without me seeing it happen(I have excellent peripheral vision, btw), then she would be due around June 20th... 

We shall see... hoping she is just really, unusual even for her age, past due and gets it over with by the time the week is over.


----------



## helmstead

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> *ETA: *If people can please keep in mind that she is onl 9 months old & HEAVILY pregnant... and that I have not come across anyone on here who has experience with VERY young doelings being pregnant & carrying to term.
> In actuality, the only person I have come across who *does* have experience with this, is the vet I talked wth in Maine.  So, I am taking his knowledge, experience with it, and advice until she goes past the furthest stretch of possibility.


When we first got into goats, we unwittingly bred our 4 month old doe Helen to a 3 month old buck, Henry.  So, yeah, I have hands on experience here.  The kid, BTW, had to be cut into pieces IN UTERO to be extracted after FOUR HOURS of trying to pull it, and we nearly lost Helen.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

It's good to keep in mind too that her udder hasn't been full/strutted either... The udder pics you've shared have been consistent with a doe bred on a later date.  I only mention this because I'm sure you're stressed about her being overdue.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> *ETA: *If people can please keep in mind that she is onl 9 months old & HEAVILY pregnant... and that I have not come across anyone on here who has experience with VERY young doelings being pregnant & carrying to term.
> In actuality, the only person I have come across who *does* have experience with this, is the vet I talked wth in Maine.  So, I am taking his knowledge, experience with it, and advice until she goes past the furthest stretch of possibility.


:/


----------



## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> It's good to keep in mind too that her udder hasn't been full/strutted either... The udder pics you've shared have been consistent with a doe bred on a later date.  I only mention this because I'm sure you're stressed about her being overdue.


I have gotten mixed responses about Cali's udder... some saying that she may not get strutted at all where she is so young, others saying that she can't be ver far along because of how small it is. It is getting really frustrating/annoying.
Yeah, just a little stressed --->  

It really makes matters worse for me & Cali that my mom is so unwilling to spend the money to go and have her checked out.  Her "ieh, if she kids.. she kids, if she doesn't... she doesn't" attitude really bothers me! If I had money of my own, I would have brought Cali into a vet LONG ago!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

helmstead said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ETA: *If people can please keep in mind that she is onl 9 months old & HEAVILY pregnant... and that I have not come across anyone on here who has experience with VERY young doelings being pregnant & carrying to term.
> In actuality, the only person I have come across who *does* have experience with this, is the vet I talked wth in Maine.  So, I am taking his knowledge, experience with it, and advice until she goes past the furthest stretch of possibility.
> 
> 
> 
> When we first got into goats, we unwittingly bred our 4 month old doe Helen to a 3 month old buck, Henry.  So, yeah, I have hands on experience here.  The kid, BTW, had to be cut into pieces IN UTERO to be extracted after FOUR HOURS of trying to pull it, and we nearly lost Helen.
Click to expand...

I am sorr this happened with your young doeling... and I wish you had responded to one of my earlier posts when I was asking for help/experience/advice on the subject. The only responses I got were from people saying that if one of their doelings gets accidentally bred they just abort, so they couldn't help me with what to expect/look for.  You can imagine how frustrating/annoying that was!

*ETA: *I have a pet peeve with this ste... or rather some of the members, who when a drect question is asked, choose to respond with something like,"Oh that(or something similar) has been posted on here before"(the never give the link for said thread)... or "can't help you"(then why respond to the question at all?)


----------



## helmstead

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> It really makes matters worse for me & Cali that my mom is so unwilling to spend the money to go and have her checked out.  Her "ieh, if she kids.. she kids, if she doesn't... she doesn't" attitude really bothers me! If I had money of my own, I would have brought Cali into a vet LONG ago!


The picture just got a little clearer for me...

I do hope that, for the sake of the goat, the dates are wrong and there was a midnight meeting.  And for your sake, because I can tell you _from first hand experience_ that you don't want to go through what my husband and I did with that young doe's labor.


----------



## ksalvagno

Sometimes people post just to give you support or bump the thread up so other people can help.

Sometimes people don't have the time to search for said thread to post the link.

Sometimes the "knowledgeable" people aren't on and when they do come on, just don't see your thread.

I can understand the frustration but no one should ever use any type of internet forum as their only source for help. The "right" people aren't always on and don't always see all the threads posted. If you could find a local mentor, that would probably help. I use this site but I also have great local vets and a couple of local goat mentors who can help me so I'm not counting on any one source.

I'm on several goat forums and there isn't one that truly answers everyone's questions. Some threads just don't get answered for no real good reason.

I hope your goat gives birth soon and everything is ok.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Sometimes people post just to give you support or bump the thread up so other people can help.
> 
> Sometimes people don't have the time to search for said thread to post the link.
> 
> Sometimes the "knowledgeable" people aren't on and when they do come on, just don't see your thread.
> 
> I can understand the frustration but no one should ever use any type of internet forum as their only source for help. The "right" people aren't always on and don't always see all the threads posted. If you could find a local mentor, that would probably help. I use this site but I also have great local vets and a couple of local goat mentors who can help me so I'm not counting on any one source.
> 
> I'm on several goat forums and there isn't one that truly answers everyone's questions. Some threads just don't get answered for no real good reason.
> 
> I hope your goat gives birth soon and everything is ok.


I understand what you are saying, and it would be great if I had those resources... but  don't.
There is 1 local "goat farm" and they are always busy, more so ever since their house & barn burnt down.  They have more to worry about than they should as it is, without me tossing my goats in the mix.
Good luck finding a livestock vet within an hour of me(hope there is never an emergency with my goats!). I would have to drive an hour andf a half to Pembroke,NH just to find a vet that I heard through WOM(word of mouth) is good with goats.  NH is SEVERELY in need of livestock vets(and knwoledgeable domestic pet vets)!! This is really my only resource for help/advice.  I wish I had something else, but I don't.  The rest of you have it SO easy... some of you with multiple choices of who to take your herd to, or get help from.  I know I am not supposed to envy, but MAN!!! 

Anywho, that is why I am frustrated with those previously mentioned posts... when I or someone else needs help with something, can't find what the need through web searches, and all they get is "sorry, can't help you"... yeah, it has a tendancy to stress & annoy. :/


----------



## Emmetts Dairy

Its normal for you to be nervous.  I know your stressed. Just try to put it in prospective.    It will work out. She will kid.  And believe me...goats have a way of making fools of us.  She just may have bred in Jan no matter how good your vision is.    The bredding takes seconds, they dont need a room or flowers or champagne!! So when there is any doubt on date what I do is follow their signs.  She will give you plenty.    She is not tiny tiny and many many goat owners made the mistake of breeding to early to.  So dont worry yourself into a frenzie!! Ok.  Early breeding is very common and some farmers will go by wieght and not age at all.  I think she will do fine.  If she was bred by a 225lbs buck..well I would concern myself about size. But I think she will surpise you and do great.  There are always horror stories...but put them out of your head.  Its just giving you something else to worry about.  Relax girl!! It will be okay!!!  

Everyone is not required to post or respond on questions asked even when they know the answer.  Some people are not always around a Karen stated.  I think your just frustrated thats all.  

I ignore the udder.  Cuz I have some that dont fill till the day before..or 30 days before.  I look at the stance...the pin bone shape changes and the pay attention to the Ligs!  When the ligs are loose and dropped that means the relaxin hormone is flowing and shes going soon!  12-24 is the rule.  But I find mine generally run about 6 hours after the ligs go.  But all goats are differant.

Say the Serenity Prayer a couple times.  And just let nature take its course!!  Be well and dont worry so much...give Cali more credit..she will do great.  Feed her properly and give her a good home and a healthy enviroment to have this baby...and that's all we can do kid..you know who controls the rest!!!!


----------



## Emmetts Dairy

There are many vets that are knowledgeable about goats in NH.  Closest to me is 1/2 hour away...I had to call last Sunday in an emergency and it took him almost 45 mins to get here.  But we live out in the woods...thats just the way it is...even if I had a heart attack It would take a bit to get to me...thats called taking the good with the bad.  And honestly...unless your getting an ultrasound done...there is nothing a vet will tell you that you dont already know.  

Believe me there are very good vets large/small animal vets in NH.  Also we have UNH Extension.  They are great!!  I will PM some resource info to you!!   But the bottom line is they cost money...and we dont always have that.  I would save any financial resources you have for the day she delivers in case of er.  And FB me if you run into delivery issues..I would be glad to help you during the delivery.  But believe me..she will do great...she will shock you I just know it...and all this worrying was to just ware out a stone!!! Think Positive!!!


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> The rest of you have it SO easy...


WHOA Nelly!  Sorry, but where livestock is concerned "SO easy" just doesn't even enter into the picture.  The "rest of us" have been up to our elbows trying to rearrange kids, cellphones covered in goo while friends try to talk us through it, lost kids, learned the hard way, STILL learning new things, yadda yadda yadda.  Just the same as everyone else.  There's just very little that's easy about raising goats, whether you have 10 resources or just handy dandy google.  I can't even imagine how it was for the pre-internet Newbs.  My heart goes out to them for sure.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The rest of you have it SO easy...
> 
> 
> 
> The "rest of us" have been up to our elbows trying to rearrange kids, cellphones covered in goo while friends try to talk us through it, lost kids, learned the hard way, STILL learning new things, yadda yadda yadda.  Just the same as everyone else.  There's just very little that's easy about raising goats, whether you have 10 resources or just handy dandy google.  I can't even imagine how it was for the pre-internet Newbs.  My heart goes out to them for sure.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%!!! 

My barn has been in a uproar for a week with my new guys...and after all these years I had a first last week with intestines of a kid presenting 1st...so she is absolutley right.  Owning goats it NEVER easy..and if someone told you that it was..well they lied...  Its the love of the animal that keeps us going back for more!! And no matter how much expirence you have..they will always through you a curve ball you never expected.  Thats one expirenced statement I can stand by!!!

Hang in there kid...you will get through this!!!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

My comment of "the rest of you have it SO easy", was not about taking care of your animals(as I *have* read the "Oh crud!" posts), but rather about the amount of resources you all have.

Up in the White Mountains, knowledgeable vets(small/domestic animal & livestock) are disappearing at an alarming rate, and they have been since '07.  I would either have to drive to East Puckerdoo Maine or down to the southern half of the state to find a vet still willing to work with goats and then pray that they are knowledgeable.
 Farms up here are dying off because of the lack of vets to fill out prescriptions, run tests(like CAE & CL), etc. 
NONE of the small animal vets are willing to help even the knowledgeable goat owner get the prescriptions they need.  I might go to the Sandwich Fair this year just to try to find an experienced, moderately local, goat owner. :/

I am glad that you would be there for me if/when I need help, Becky! I sure hope I won't need it!
I feel like such a maroon after posting for...what?... 3 months now?.. that Cali is due any day. I hate that I don't have an exact date of breeding... more than that, that she was accidentally bred.  I have second guessed off and on, "is she or isn't she?" everytime I think she might not be, there is more proof that she is... but then... there is all this waiting.  And I am sure there are people who have read this thread and thought, "Wow, these people are idiots"

I am trying to be as relaxed as I can be... but it is difficult, espescially seeing all of the major health issues & death posts these past few months. 
I know that you know who is in control... I just have a difficult time letting the reigns go, where we have already lost over half of our chicks(mysterious deaths, trampling by goats, and death by rooster) & almost lost a hen.  We lost our only white crested black polish chick today... either Marly or I accidentally stepped on it.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> My comment of "the rest of you have it SO easy", was not about taking care of your animals(as I *have* read the "Oh crud!" posts), but rather about the amount of resources you all have.


I think there are LOTS of folks in exactly that same boat.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Okay, after that lovely tearful veering off of my main topic...

Back to Cali: How normal/abnormal is the teat mouthing & pulling? 

If it is normal, when(in terms of pregnancy stage) have you noticed this behavior?

Also, what IS she doing by doing this? stimulating production, trying to pull ot the teat barbs, _________??


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Okay, after that lovely tearful veering off of my main topic...
> 
> Back to Cali: How normal/abnormal is the teat mouthing & pulling?
> 
> If it is normal, when(in terms of pregnancy stage) have you noticed this behavior?
> 
> Also, what IS she doing by doing this? stimulating production, trying to pull ot the teat barbs, _________??


Ok...I noticed Daisy did this a couple of days prior to giving birth.  BUT, I must stress that every goat is different.  Lilly never gave any indication of imminent delivery except for building and filling her udder 12 hours prior.

As to the reason that she's doing this I really don't have the answer.

Livinwright, it sounds like you really need   Goat deliveries are stressful even when you know all the facts.  And as my buck Speedy has taught me, mating can be quite fast (or speedy   ).  Take a few deep breaths, count to 10, say the serenity prayer...whatever calms you down. Becky has given you the green light to contact her if you're in need during the delivery.  You can contact me as well (just message on facebook it goes right to my phone).


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, after that lovely tearful veering off of my main topic...
> 
> Back to Cali: How normal/abnormal is the teat mouthing & pulling?
> 
> If it is normal, when(in terms of pregnancy stage) have you noticed this behavior?
> 
> Also, what IS she doing by doing this? stimulating production, trying to pull ot the teat barbs, _________??
> 
> 
> 
> Ok...I noticed Daisy did this a couple of days prior to giving birth.  BUT, I must stress that every goat is different.  Lilly never gave any indication of imminent delivery except for building and filling her udder 12 hours prior.
> 
> As to the reason that she's doing this I really don't have the answer.
> 
> Livinwright, it sounds like you really need   Goat deliveries are stressful even when you know all the facts.  And as my buck Speedy has taught me, mating can be quite fast (or speedy   ).  Take a few deep breaths, count to 10, say the serenity prayer...whatever calms you down. Becky has given you the green light to contact her if you're in need during the delivery.  You can contact me as well (just message on facebook it goes right to my phone).
Click to expand...

Okay *nods head*, that udder thing is one of the most variable things with a pregnant doe... at least that is what I gather from various posts here and on other sites. I read on a couple sites that some does are really off, and don't really bag up until 12-24 hrs POST kidding 
Not worried about this behavior... just saw it and was curious what she was trying to accomplish. 

Thank you, thank Becky, and thank you! I really hope I won't need to contact either of you, but hope that I am messaging you both by the end of the month with a birth announcement or two!!     
PS: Maude is slowly growing her udder and has been butting heads(in a practice sparring manner) with the new buck Falkor.  They wil gently butt heads(no rearing up and smashing), and then smell each other's foreheads... it's cute to watch.


----------



## oakmarsh nigerians

Living:

Accuracy started that a few days before also.


----------



## fanov8

Any new pics?  I know its been a bit since you have posted new pics


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> My comment of "the rest of you have it SO easy", was not about taking care of your animals(as I *have* read the "Oh crud!" posts), but rather about the amount of resources you all have.
> 
> Up in the White Mountains, knowledgeable vets(small/domestic animal & livestock) are disappearing at an alarming rate, and they have been since '07.  I would either have to drive to East Puckerdoo Maine or down to the southern half of the state to find a vet still willing to work with goats and then pray that they are knowledgeable.
> Farms up here are dying off because of the lack of vets to fill out prescriptions, run tests(like CAE & CL), etc.
> NONE of the small animal vets are willing to help even the knowledgeable goat owner get the prescriptions they need.  I might go to the Sandwich Fair this year just to try to find an experienced, moderately local, goat owner. :/
> 
> I am glad that you would be there for me if/when I need help, Becky! I sure hope I won't need it!
> I feel like such a maroon after posting for...what?... 3 months now?.. that Cali is due any day. I hate that I don't have an exact date of breeding... more than that, that she was accidentally bred.  I have second guessed off and on, "is she or isn't she?" everytime I think she might not be, there is more proof that she is... but then... there is all this waiting.  And I am sure there are people who have read this thread and thought, "Wow, these people are idiots"
> 
> I am trying to be as relaxed as I can be... but it is difficult, espescially seeing all of the major health issues & death posts these past few months.
> I know that you know who is in control... I just have a difficult time letting the reigns go, where we have already lost over half of our chicks(mysterious deaths, trampling by goats, and death by rooster) & almost lost a hen.  We lost our only white crested black polish chick today... either Marly or I accidentally stepped on it.


Your not alone as far as resources go. 

I am not really in the position to even pay for a vet I am riding lucks wings and just hoping that I never ever have a need for one.
Hoping that if I can just keep them healthy and make the right choices everything will be ok.

I was very very lucky with Malina the babies head did get stuck both legs were tucked inside really good wedged in there.

I lost my head for just a moment and my daughter laughed at me it snapped me out she said I kept saying "Oh God Oh GOD" 
Only I didn't remember saying not 1 word.

Thats when I took a deep breath and told Malina come on girl Push I reached 1 finger inside not all the way but just in around the part that was around the babies head, found the leg it was bent under him I hooked my finger under and pulled it out. Only I could not find his other leg. I stood up took another breath calmed my self and I said Malina girl you gotta work with me and push again and when she did I cupped one hand over his head and the other hand under the 1 leg out and his chest when she pushed i pushed downward and out he came.

He was big I don't know if she would have been able to do it her self. 

I don't think Cali has 1 baby in there but thats just me... Malina wasn't that big. 

I would never think your an idiot. Things happen its a part of life. 

As for the teat pulling I personally never saw Malina do that but I did notice a day or 2 before she went into labor the plugs were gone. Softly rub at the tip of the teat and see if they are still there.

Maybe this is also another indication. I may have missed seeing Malina doing this.

Watch her ligs everyone kept telling me that I didnt understand what they meant till I actually felt them gone its a whole different feeling I was jumping up and down that they were finally gone it took me a little while though to realize this is it , this is the end we have finally been waiting for.

Also I never saw the bubble that comes out before the baby, when they say every doe is different it is true.


----------



## jodief100

Don't worry about the neverending "she is due any day!"  post.  I think we have all been there at one time.  Goats are hard to read.  Good luck and I hope this works out soon!

We will be there for you when it does!


----------



## Livinwright Farm

fanov8 said:
			
		

> Any new pics?  I know its been a bit since you have posted new pics


No new pics yet... my laptop crashed hard(started making this weird "buuuzzzzz-beep" noise, froze, ended up having to do a hard shut down{pressed the pwr button until it shut off}, then when I went to restart it it came up with this computer garble and then came up with "no boot disk found, insert boot disk and press any key to continue"  
*SO* , I am now using an old as dirt computer that takes a while to load... I will have to see if I can load pics onto my mom's laptopthis afternoon, and upload to our Facebook page from there.


----------



## PattySh

I am in your shoes right now,daughter's 3 new goats with unknown breeding dates. I can top you tho with the udder pulling, not sure about one she has an udder BUT I saw the 3 year old buck nursing off her!!!!! Now thats udder pulling lol. Not sure if he saw the 6 week old babies  nursing (on the 3rd doe)and said "what the hey!" or ????? Same doe is HUGE in the belly and nothing in the pooch dept. Another doe is small in the belly and very poochy. Doe nursing 6 week olds is probably preggers again also. Geez Louise! Hang in there, has to be soon! I'm just grateful it's warm weather with the mess we just inherited!


----------



## Hykue

In humans (and, I have heard, in goats) stimulation of the nipples/teats can help to induce labor.  It only works if other conditions are already on their way to labor - enough prostaglandins to soften the cervix, baby's at term, etc.  I can't remember what hormone it releases, but I'm pregnant, so I've been reading up on labor and birth.  It's at least possible that she's trying to induce labor instinctually.

And don't feel silly, I'm just really hoping I don't end up stressed and pulling my hair out in a month, when my older doe STILL hasn't kidded.  Pen breeding was about my only choice this year, and the younger doe apparently caught on the very first day (I thought she was in heat), but the older one didn't.  She's enormous, as wide as she is tall, we think, but no sign of kids yet.  Hopefully soon.  Anyway, I've thought she was going to pop FOR SURE for about two weeks now (putting her just at term for getting bred the first day), but instead she has just been hanging about, getting slower and more uncomfortable-looking.  If it goes on for another month I'll be stark raving mad.  I can't make head nor tail of the ligaments, I felt them on my FF the morning of the day she gave birth, I THOUGHT I felt them, I THOUGHT they were much more prominent than those on my older doe.  I apparently don't even know what I'm feeling for.  She gave birth in the 10 hours I was busy working on the greenhouse, by herself, and had the kids dried off before I even checked again.  So you're not the first one to not know what's going on with pregnant does.

And although there are very good livestock vets around here, neither of them is a goat vet.  One of them used to have goats, but I'm not sure he understands me most of the time - nor I him.  I asked him the other day, "You had goats before, right?"  He said yes.  I then asked, "Was that in this area?" and his response was, "We had them for milk".  I think perhaps his accent interferes with his understanding me - I don't know where he's from, but it worries me a little to be so drastically misunderstood.  Other than that he seems to be a good vet, I suppose.  The other vet is more of a livestock vet, but that means he's very nearly always out on house calls, so I talk to someone who isn't a vet - I don't know if she's his "receptionist" or wife or assistant or all three.  She seems pretty knowledgeable, but she's not a vet, and she said they see about one goat a year.  There are other people with goats, and they range from the woman with the impeccably well-looked after herd with beautiful udders . . . who had gotten CL from a sheep breeder who told her they didn't have CL but didn't present papers, to the people who had a ton of goat rescues with a motley mix of lovely udders, scurs, horrible udders, a broken leg that was splinted/cast with duct tape after she got the original cast off, friendly and nearly feral.  The people I got my goats from are very helpful, but also very busy, and the closer of the two lives about 45 minutes away, and they are quite poor so can't travel much.  The further are about 1 hour and 15 minutes away, and they are super-helpful, but one of them has been having health problems, so I don't want to bother them except for big stuff (like, please oh please, helping me with dehorning and/or castration).

Whew, I apparently had a lot to say!


----------



## country freedom

How is Cali doing?


----------



## stano40

never noticed the teat/udder pulling until today. I have a doe that is positively not bred and she picked up her back leg and started to suckle on her own teat. :/


----------



## Livinwright Farm

The poor little blimp(Cali) might actually go within the next couple of days...    I am keeping track of her ligs and they are barely there... she has to stand very firmly in order for me to feel any trace of them... Come on little girl!!     Pray for *PINKS!!!!!*


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

Hope you have an uneventful kidding and lots of pink!


----------



## elevan




----------



## Livinwright Farm

Ladies and Gentlemen, Cali's ligs are GONE and she is gooing!!!!!!       FINALLY!!!!!!!   Pray for *DOELINGS* PLEASE!!!


----------



## pirtykitty

I have been reading this the whole day and finally got to the end ( post 31) I'm having cats and kittens wondering if she's had them yet and what they are...


----------



## elevan

Go Cali ~ Go Cali ~ Go Cali!!!!!!

Keep us updated!!


----------



## Crooked Gate Farm




----------



## 20kidsonhill




----------



## PattySh

YAY!!!!!!! Go Cali!!!!


----------



## llrumsey

so did cali have kids or what?


----------



## Livinwright Farm

First bubble popped out at 7:30pm EST since then goo came out above the bubble, and now there is a single leg/hoof presenting... I scrubbed and went in to find nose or a second leg/hoof... and can't find anything.... starting to get worried.... espescially after seeing how large the single leg/hoof was!!


----------



## PattySh

You might need to push the kid back to get things coming out right. Check to see if the head is to the left or  right.  Close your eyes relax and try to picture the parts you are feeling. If the hoof facing up or down that gives you something to start with. Time is not on your side you need to go back in there soon!

One leg may mean one leg is way tucked back see if you can feel the chest to t he right or left of the leg, the head is probably on that side. (make sure it's a front foot!)


----------



## Livinwright Farm

the hoof is kind of sideways to down, but more sideways than down... if Cali was standing up, the hoof points to her left side.


----------



## PattySh

pm ur phone# I'll call u


crossing fingers you are getting it sorted out.


----------



## elevan

I'm walking her through this via phone.

They now have both hooves presenting


----------



## freemotion

Where's the nose????  Where's the nose??????

Gotta go bottle feed.....eek!  How are things going?


----------



## PattySh

waiting for updates


----------



## PattySh

Might need to push legs back to get the nose, head may be left or right 

Did you make sure they are front legs? feel for tail?


----------



## St0rmyM00n

ugh i have been watching on facebook for updates i see i am in the wrong place... Come on Cali girl lets see those babies.......


----------



## elevan

Head is obviously wedged and they are having trouble finding the head.

eta: I've walked them through figuring out front or back legs...I'm confident that they are front legs from what I'm being told.

They gotta get aggressive and find that head! Everyone keep your fingers crossed.


----------



## PattySh

Are they pushing the kid back in to make room?


----------



## St0rmyM00n

elevan said:
			
		

> Head is obviously wedged and they are having trouble finding the head.


Aww


----------



## St0rmyM00n

elevan said:
			
		

> Head is obviously wedged and they are having trouble finding the head.
> 
> eta: I've walked them through figuring out front or back legs...I'm confident that they are front legs from what I'm being told.
> 
> They gotta get aggressive and find that head! Everyone keep your fingers crossed.


Fingers crossed and praying (( COME ON CALI )) come on BABY!!!!


----------



## elevan

Head "appears" to be pushed under the body?  They are pushing the baby back enough to get the head in the right position.


----------



## elevan

There may be another kid coming from behind! They gotta get that first kid out.


----------



## PattySh

They need to push everything back in and start over

Will not be able to keep legs out and manipulate head


----------



## St0rmyM00n

elevan said:
			
		

> Head "appears" to be pushed under the body?  They are pushing the baby back enough to get the head in the right position.


Oh wow , please keep us posted !


----------



## PattySh

I'm missing Game of Thrones for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> They need to push everything back in and start over
> 
> Will not be able to keep legs out and manipulate head


I know!  They are having a lot of trouble accomplishing this!

Dad is in the hot seat right now giving it a go.


----------



## elevan

Kid is back in sans 1 hoof.  They are trying to find the head again to manipulate it forward.  Just found the head.  They are trying to position it.  Not in a good position from the sound of things.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Thank you Elevan for keeping us posted !


----------



## PattySh

Been there, hoping for a good outcome. Sounds like the kid is a bit too big for Cali. Wishing I could send my kid puller thru online .


----------



## PJisaMom

Crossing fingers and toes... oy....


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Anything new yet?


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> Been there, hoping for a good outcome. Sounds like the kid is a bit too big for Cali. Wishing I could send my kid puller thru online .


I would second that.  Right now it appears that there may be another kid in the lineup complicating things.

Not to mention the kid is presenting wrong.




			
				St0rmyM00n said:
			
		

> Thank you Elevan for keeping us posted !


I'm trying to walk them through it while at the same time looking for any "brilliant" ideas from others here.  Figure as many heads as we can get into the game the better.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

elevan said:
			
		

> PattySh said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been there, hoping for a good outcome. Sounds like the kid is a bit too big for Cali. Wishing I could send my kid puller thru online .
> 
> 
> 
> I would second that.  Right now it appears that there may be another kid in the lineup complicating things.
> 
> Not to mention the kid is presenting wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> St0rmyM00n said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Elevan for keeping us posted !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm trying to walk them through it while at the same time looking for any "brilliant" ideas from others here.  Figure as many heads as we can get into the game the better.
Click to expand...

They don't appear to be twisted / tangled up together do they?

if the head is lined up now with each contraction is it not possible to just slide it out or is it stuck on something? Maybe a push and pull type thing needs to happen I am so new to  this but just trying to think what I would do maybe push other baby with one hand while pull the 1st baby with the other if there was room to do that......oh this is horrible.


----------



## PattySh

Why are t hey thinking 2 kids, do they feel 2 heads?


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> Why are t hey thinking 2 kids, do they feel 2 heads?


Couple of reasons.
1 being the "jammed up" type of lineup.
2 being that they had a "whoosh" of fluids / goo run past the first kid.


----------



## llrumsey

I have had 10 goat kids and were very lucky no problems, however this year we had 2 new babies killed by our watch burro, very sad, so I can relate to the worry that you are going through with cali.

I'll be thinking about you and keeping an eye on the internet.


----------



## PattySh

I'm thinking one BIG kid, small uterus. Malpresentation. Doe swelling terribly at t his point, probably going into shock. Fluids can follow kids, not  neccesarily a sign of a kid to follow.


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> I'm thinking one BIG kid, small uterus. Malpresentation. Doe swelling terribly at t his point, probably going into shock. Fluids can follow kids, not  neccesarily a sign of a kid to follow.


True...time will tell.

They are attempting to find a vet willing to assist.


----------



## PattySh

I usually milk goats at 11pm I can't leave this yet.


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Seems there is just a short window in order to get the kids out before things go down hill, poor Cali, but I am not giving up hope. She will come through !


----------



## PJisaMom

elevan said:
			
		

> They are attempting to find a vet willing to assist.


Glad to see this... I know they have a hard time around them...hopefully someone will be willing to come out QUICKLY.


----------



## PattySh

I hope they find a vet, in a rural area at this time of nite it isn't good. Hang in there Cali.


----------



## wannacow




----------



## elevan

They found a vet but they have to take Cali to that vet...

Keep your thoughts and prayers with this goat family tonight.  I've hung up the phone with them and hope that the morning brings good news and that Cali is all right.


This just sent to me via facebook:


> Thank you Emily. Chris (Jaqui's Dad) has found a vet an hour away in Plymouth that, has never dealt with goats, but said that if we can get her to him he will help. Load us up with prayers for a safe drive and for Cali's safety through this.


I wish that I could have done more for them.


----------



## PattySh

Is Cali pushing or resting?


----------



## PattySh

Hoping this ends well. What an awesome vet to take that on. It's so horrid that there are areas without knowledgeable vets. I am so lucky to have a small animal vet that HAS goats and is goat savvy and an awesome goat savvy large animal vet. Jacqui (and Chris)I am so wishing you well on this on. Hang in there Cali, you are obviously very well loved.


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> Is Cali pushing or resting?


In the beginning there was a lot of pushing and then she didn't have the energy to push so she rested.  At the end there was some minor pushing.


----------



## PattySh

Elevan, YOU DID AWESOME!!!!!!!!!


----------



## PattySh

If she wasn't strenuously pushing the outcome may be better!!!!


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> Hoping this ends well. What an awesome vet to take that on. It's so horrid that there are areas without knowledgeable vets. I am so lucky to have a small animal vet that HAS goats and is goat savvy and an awesome goat savvy large animal vet. Jacqui (and Chris)I am so wishing you well on this on. Hang in there Cali, you are obviously very well loved.


I agree.  Even small animal (dog / cat) experience should be more help than not...plus they will be in a facility to be able to do just about anything needed.


*Jacqui / Chris / Nancy - You are all in my thoughts and prayers tonight along with the sweet Cali.*


----------



## PattySh

Going out to milk my uncomfortable goats, will be running to the ocmputer for an update tomorrow morning.


----------



## elevan

PattySh said:
			
		

> Elevan, YOU DID AWESOME!!!!!!!!!


I wish I could have done more.  If she would have been anywhere in Ohio I would have got into the car.


> If she wasn't strenuously pushing the outcome may be better!!!!


  When they decided to call in a vet and realized that they just couldn't do it themselves (even with a phone guide) and poor Cali was so worn out.  I advised them to let her rest and now she has an hour drive to relax and hopefully we'll see a good report in the morning


----------



## St0rmyM00n

Has anyone heard from them?
(Praying for Cali and Babies )


----------



## PattySh

Just checking in here  also, won't sleep tonight worrying about Cali. Been there so scary.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Thank you all for your thoughts & prayers.

We request that you keep praying for Cali, for a quick & full healing.

At approximately 2:25am EST, the roughly 4-5 lb single buckling was retrieved from Cali... still born  . MUCH thanks to the Plymouth, NH Animal Hospital staff!! There might have been a chance for a live birth if we had driven her there as soon as I noticed the lack of ligs... but there is no point in thinking about the shoulda/coulda/wouldas.  Cali is currently recuperating in my Dad's enclosed trailer. And we have 5 syringes of antibiotics for her for the next 5 days.

Thank you to Emily(Elevan) for doing everything you did in talking us through it all. 

The little buckling appeared to be a very lightly broken chamoise(chamoise with a small white star top center of his head & a couple little spots on his right side) He would have been a beautiful little buck, I am sure. Should Cali survive this trauma, and continue growing properly... we MIGHT consider breeding her to a LITTLE Pygmy buck... to ensure SMALL kids... sometime in the future, but definitely NO time soon.


----------



## Roll farms

Good thoughts for Cali.


----------



## Cooperkeeper

I am so sorry for the loss of your little buckling.  Praying Cali gets stronger each day.  Hugs to you and your DH and for wonderful efforts of those here that tried to help.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy

Im sorry for your loss...Poor Cali...hope she recovers quickly.  That seems like a very long and rough time for the poor girl.  I regret not checking BYH last night...But thankfully Emily was there on the phone with you.  Good job Emily.

I was a couple hours south of her...so it was probally quicker for her to get to the plymouth hospital.  Its hard when its your first time and got your hand in there and your unsure of what your feeling.  Thats tough!!

Im sorry for you...glad Cali made it through.


----------



## DouglasPeeps

Ohhhh, I am so sorry to hear this.  So sorry that you lost your buckling!!!  Praying with you that Cali makes a complete recovery!  

And (((HUGS))) for you!  I am sure that you are still shaken by the entire evening!  Glad there were others on here to give you support!


----------



## wannacow

You had a tough "first time".  I'm sorry you lost your buckling, but I'm so glad Cali is recuperating.  You did a great job.  Now, hopefully your toughest is behind you and all you'll have from now on is nice easy births!


----------



## helmstead

Sorry for your loss.  Hope the doe recovers.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

I'm sorry!  That's an unfortunate outcome.


----------



## pirtykitty

So sorry to hear about the little buckling....Speedy recovery to Cali..  Big Hug for you hubby and family.


----------



## PattySh

Very sorry you lost the buckling. I hope Cali recovers. You must be exhausted.


----------



## freemotion

I'm so sorry that what should have been wonderful was so traumatic for all of you.  Love up that poor little doe and have a good cry....I know the panic and the wrenching of the gut well.....and the fear as the next due date approaches.   

Our friends and family often don't understand the depth of feeling we have for our goaties, but everyone here on byh sure does.


----------



## jodief100

I am so sorry.  

Unfortunatly these things happen and there is nothing any of us can do about it. 

I am keepign Cali in my thoughts.  I know you will take care of her the best you can.  

I hope the rest of your's kid without trouble.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

I missed everything going on. Just catching up now,  So sorry


----------



## RainySunday

So sorry about the buckling!  I hope Cali pulls through quickly for you!


----------



## goatdreamerCT

I've been checking in everyday to see how Cali's doing and I'm terribly sorry to hear about her horrible delivery. Sending  to you and Cali and hope she makes a full recovery.


----------



## Hykue

All the best to you and Cali, I hope she recovers completely and quickly.  So sorry about the buckling.


----------



## phoenixmama

I'm sorry it was a rough kidding.  I'm sure next time will be much better.


----------



## Our7Wonders

I am so sorry for your loss.    Poor Cali, hope she makes a speedy recovery.


----------



## ksalvagno

Sorry for you loss. I hope Cali recovers for you.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

First, we want to thank you all for praying for Cali.
We are quite sad to report that Cali lost her fight for life today.   
The trauma of it all was just too much for her young little body to overcome.

Now we need to find a place that can deal with her remains, as we have no place/way to bury her.

VERY special thanks to Emily(Elevan)... your advice/help was exactly what the vet said & did, it's just that none of us had hands small enough to really get in there. I_(Jaqui)_ wish we lived closer so that I could give you a big thank you hug.. but this is the best I can do:


----------



## Emmetts Dairy

I am sooooo very sorry you lost her.   That is so tragic and thats just terrible.  

I hope you find peace somehow.  

*On the burial...I would recomend bagging her up.  Im sorry if this sounds cold..but the reality is that her rumen could release and it would cause more misery for you guys when transporting her for a burial when you find a place.  

I wish I lived closer..I have a backhoe.  She is small...so digging a deep enough hole would be sufficient..then she could stay on the farm with you guys. 

I can stress enough how very sorry I am for you guys.  I am shocked you lost her...but these things do happen...its just heartbreaking. 

My prayers to you all.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> I am sooooo very sorry you lost her.   That is so tragic and thats just terrible.
> 
> I hope you find peace somehow.


Thanks Becky.  We don't know why, but we know Who is in control... and are trusting in Him... and therein lies our peace.

ETA: We used to have a backhoe, but it died shortly after digging up the mother of all oak stumps.  Between the bear, mountain lion, coyote, and wolf scrounging for a relatively easy meal, and number of boulders imbedded in our property.. unfortunately, I just don't see burial on our property as an option :/


----------



## goatsintheopen

I am SOOO sorry about your loss!  that just stinks!


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> First, we want to thank you all for praying for Cali.
> We are quite sad to report that Cali lost her fight for life today.
> The trauma of it all was just too much for her young little body to overcome.
> 
> Now we need to find a place that can deal with her remains, as we have no place/way to bury her.
> 
> VERY special thanks to Emily(Elevan)... your advice/help was exactly what the vet said & did, it's just that none of us had hands small enough to really get in there. I_(Jaqui)_ wish we lived closer so that I could give you a big thank you hug.. but this is the best I can do:


Ah, Honey I'm so sorry that it ended this way


----------



## wannacow

I am so sorry...


----------



## PattySh

Jaqui, Extremely sad to read you lost Cali. 

I know you need advice so offering the following:

We Compost our farm animals because we have alot of ledge, basically a thick layer of wood shavings/manure lay the animal on that then cover with thick layer of same. If you have a working compost pile use some of that. It is very quick and efficient, no smell and I haven't had any animals digging. A layer of dirt  is added after the area "settles".  You might fence in the area to avoid predators with some sort of temporary fence if you are worried. I also add a bit of dog hair (I groom my dogs or you could ask a groomer for some). This seems to repel "diggers" that would disturb the remains.

Again, I am so sorry for your loss.


----------



## llrumsey

you might check into cremation, I know that it's a little expensive, but you could either scatter her remains or place them in a nice jar.

I had to bury 1 of my favorite does last summer, then this year one new little boy and then a little girl that showed such good potentional.

God Bless.


----------



## Snowhunter

So very sorry to hear this  Can't seem to find any sort of words to say but sending lots of    and prayers


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

I'm really sorry for your loss.


----------



## country freedom

Very sorry to read that Cali also passed


----------



## jodief100




----------



## Roll farms

I'm very sorry.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Thank you all for your condolences. We will be making a post to our website's blog... in memorium for Cali.  While we grieve her loss, life & the farm must continue on.

As stated a while before, we are *sure* that Maude is pregnant.. and by the look of her udder, I am guessing that she still has a month to go... then again, goats are liars, right? The good news, is that Maude kidded a single buckling with her first freshening last year and with relative ease, so even if she is only carrying a single buckling again, she shouldn't have an issue. Please pray for her to be carrying at least 1 doeling! Would love to have some more girls, not to mention, girls with wattles! 

Momma is still a mystery.  If we hadn't just spent $405 plus gas for the 2 hr round trip trying to save Cali, we would have brought Momma in to either have blood drawn & sent to be analyzed or an ultrasound done... NO money for that now, so we will just wait & see. We might have to wait through October, as Falkor at least attempted to breed her a week or so ago.  She wasn't exactly agreeable to his advances.
Under normal circumstances, we wouldn't be hoping for her to have been bred unplanned, but having just lost Cali, we need for her to be pregnant.  Momma had twins with her first freshening, so the odds are favorable that she will kid multiples again, right?


----------



## jodief100

I am so sorry for your loss and you have my deapest sympathies.  



			
				Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> Momma had twins with her first freshening, so the odds are favorable that she will kid multiples again, right?


The research I have read on Boers and other meat breeds shows the opposite.  The statistics are a doe that has twins her first year is more likely to have a single the next.  The "average" doe has three kids her first two kiddings.


----------



## Livinwright Farm

jodief100 said:
			
		

> I am so sorry for your loss and you have my deapest sympathies.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Momma had twins with her first freshening, so the odds are favorable that she will kid multiples again, right?
> 
> 
> 
> The research I have read on Boers and other meat breeds shows the opposite.  The statistics are a doe that has twins her first year is more likely to have a single the next.  The "average" doe has three kids her first two kiddings.
Click to expand...

Right, but she is not a Boer... Momma & Maude are Nigerians. Potentially throwbacks, but Nigerians nonetheless.  I am working on getting the info of where they originally came from... just waiting to hear back from the woman we got them from as to where SHE got them from.


----------



## elevan

Unfortunately unless you know the history for the specific doe it's really hard to figure out how many they might have...even based on breed.

For example if you had her for several years and she kidded 3 or 4 times and each time was twins well then you're likely to get twins (maybe...).

Lady we got Lilly from said she had always kidded twins and when she kidded her first time for us it was a single.  

I will say I would be careful about how you feed the last month of gestation so as to avoid have overly large kids.

I'll be watching for updates on Maude and Momma


----------



## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Unfortunately unless you know the history for the specific doe it's really hard to figure out how many they might have...even based on breed.
> 
> For example if you had her for several years and she kidded 3 or 4 times and each time was twins well then you're likely to get twins (maybe...).
> 
> Lady we got Lilly from said she had always kidded twins and when she kidded her first time for us it was a single.
> 
> I will say I would be careful about how you feed the last month of gestation so as to avoid have overly large kids.
> 
> I'll be watching for updates on Maude and Momma


How do you feed *your* girls in their last month or so?
I have been giving Maude: 2 cups of Purina Noble Goat twice per day, 2-3 cups of Lucerne Farm's Alfa Supreme, an apple (when we have them), regular hay, water, plus pasture(I cut and bring to them) and produce trimmings & corn husks.


----------



## RainySunday

So sorry to hear about Cali, very sad.

As far as feeding, my Nigerians get about a cup/cup and half twice a day on the milk stand of Noble Goat (when they are lactating), plus a handful or so of alfalfa pellets (also twice a day on the stand).  They also get free choice grass hay and water and loose minerals and pasture for 7-10 hours during the day.  My pregnant doe (due in the next 3 weeks) gets a half cup a day of noble goat, plus a sprinkle of Boss and alf pellets (as well as the hay/water/minerals/pasture).  She is in good condition, and since she is not huge (and has only had single or twins in the past), I don't want to risk a huge single by feeding too much.

All of that said, I am no where near an expert, as she is out first pregnant doe.  SO take it with *several* grains of salt.


----------



## chubbydog811

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately unless you know the history for the specific doe it's really hard to figure out how many they might have...even based on breed.
> 
> For example if you had her for several years and she kidded 3 or 4 times and each time was twins well then you're likely to get twins (maybe...).
> 
> Lady we got Lilly from said she had always kidded twins and when she kidded her first time for us it was a single.
> 
> I will say I would be careful about how you feed the last month of gestation so as to avoid have overly large kids.
> 
> I'll be watching for updates on Maude and Momma
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feed *your* girls in their last month or so?
> I have been giving Maude: 2 cups of Purina Noble Goat twice per day, 2-3 cups of Lucerne Farm's Alfa Supreme, an apple (when we have them), regular hay, water, plus pasture(I cut and bring to them) and produce trimmings & corn husks.
Click to expand...

The question wasn't directed at me...but...
I only give my girls 1 cup at most of grain a day the last 2 months (or as soon as they are dried off), and make up for the rest with free choice hay and minerals. It's lucky I did it that way this year, because all of my kids were very large as it was. 
Knowing that I have Saanens and Saanen x's, I think you may be way over feeding them, seeing how they are mini goats, not full sized goats. 
When I had pygmies, my vet said to only give them a small handful (a half cup at most) per feeding when dry. 

Also - VERY sorry to hear about the kid and Cali


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

We feed enough to ensure they're slightly overconditioned 30 days out, then feed just enough to maintain body weight until kidding.  We don't push them to gain anything in the last month when the kids do most of their growing.  I'd rather they strip just a little bit than overfeed at that time.  The actual amount will be different for each doe.


----------



## goatdreamerCT

My heart is breaking to hear the lost of Cali. Sending you more strength and love...


----------



## Livinwright Farm

Cali is now in her forever resting place. We made sure that she is well protected from any potentially curious predators/scavengers.
We are thankful that God directed us to a spot on our property, that had very few rocks, so that we could dig deeply & quickly enough to give her a proper burial.

We plan on planting cold hardy strawberries over her, since strawberries were her ultimate favorite.


----------



## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately unless you know the history for the specific doe it's really hard to figure out how many they might have...even based on breed.
> 
> For example if you had her for several years and she kidded 3 or 4 times and each time was twins well then you're likely to get twins (maybe...).
> 
> Lady we got Lilly from said she had always kidded twins and when she kidded her first time for us it was a single.
> 
> I will say I would be careful about how you feed the last month of gestation so as to avoid have overly large kids.
> 
> I'll be watching for updates on Maude and Momma
> 
> 
> 
> How do you feed *your* girls in their last month or so?
> I have been giving Maude: 2 cups of Purina Noble Goat twice per day, 2-3 cups of Lucerne Farm's Alfa Supreme, an apple (when we have them), regular hay, water, plus pasture(I cut and bring to them) and produce trimmings & corn husks.
Click to expand...

Others have answered as well and their program is very similar to mine.

The last month they get about a cup of Noble Goat one time daily.  I'll throw on a handful of alfalfa pellets a couple of times a week.  They get free choice hay and minerals as well as access to pasture as much as they want.

And I wholeheartedly agree with this:


			
				n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> We don't push them to gain anything in the last month when the kids do most of their growing.  I'd rather they strip just a little bit than overfeed at that time.  The actual amount will be different for each doe.


As long as they aren't looking like a complete skeleton I won't increase their ration during this last month.  And if that happens it's only about a half cup more of Noble Goat.

You of course must decide what works for you.  If you do decide to cut them back I would either start by cutting their ration in half at 2x a day or give them only 1 feeding a day.  Then cut that in half in about 10 days.


----------



## Roll farms

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> We feed enough to ensure they're slightly overconditioned 30 days out, then feed just enough to maintain body weight until kidding.  We don't push them to gain anything in the last month when the kids do most of their growing.  I'd rather they strip just a little bit than overfeed at that time.  The actual amount will be different for each doe.


----------



## PattySh

Having had a vet assisted delivery of a 10# kid  with Sasha (100# soaking wet!)last year, vet said I may have overfed just a wee bit!  This season we fed considerably less the last month, still got twins weighing 8# each and again an awful vet assisted delivery. Even tho the buck we bred her to is not any taller than her he produces  fairly big kids across the board with all the does. We are going to breed her this season to a proven Nigerian known to produce really tiny kids. Got to know my vet really well, she helped deliver 2 does last year (Sasha and my daughters Nigerian Dwarf Natalie, both horribly traumatic deliveries of twisted up big kids) and Sasha's twins  this year. Expensive milk! Hope your other 2 girls have an uneventful textbook delivery of little doelings for you. If you don't have a vet on call, you might want to consider buying a kid puller asap, it saved both does from Csections, vet has one but I prefer to use my own. Jeffers sells them, not too expensive.

edited to add, I will say tho my 2 deliveries this year cost about $180 each including the vet trip charge to my barn. Did Cali have a C-section or did the vet pull the kid?


----------



## aggieterpkatie

I have a different approach to feeding.  Ideally the ewes/does/whatever will be in good condition (but NOT overconditioned) going into breeding season, so that they can maintain during the early months of gestation.  I generally don't feed grain during the first 3-4 months of gestation, because they dont' have much different nutritional needs than they did when they were open.  Once they start into the last month of gestation, I'll start feeding grain to meet the demands of the growing fetuses.  I really don't want the doe to be overconditioned when she delivers, and I dont' want her losing condition that last month since it's so hard on them once they do lamb/kid.  

There are probably theories that feeding grain or increasing nutrition that last month makes for big babies, but this has never been a problem for me ever, or on the sheep farm where I worked. It's pretty common practice to increase nutrition that last month.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I have a different approach to feeding.  Ideally the ewes/does/whatever will be in good condition (but NOT overconditioned) going into breeding season, so that they can maintain during the early months of gestation.  I generally don't feed grain during the first 3-4 months of gestation, because they dont' have much different nutritional needs than they did when they were open.  Once they start into the last month of gestation, I'll start feeding grain to meet the demands of the growing fetuses.  I really don't want the doe to be overconditioned when she delivers, and I dont' want her losing condition that last month since it's so hard on them once they do lamb/kid.
> 
> There are probably theories that feeding grain or increasing nutrition that last month makes for big babies, but this has never been a problem for me ever, or on the sheep farm where I worked. It's pretty common practice to increase nutrition that last month.


This isn't really different from how we do it, depending on the doe.  Most of our does don't require much grain to get to what we consider the proper condition, just plenty of alfalfa.  Because we want them in good condition at breeding the does may actually get very little grain the first 3-4 months because it's just a matter of maintaining, not packing it on.  Then we feed just enough to maintain that body weight through the last month, which usually does require an increase in grain because as you said their caloric needs have changed.

I agree with Aggie, the dry, easy keepers that are at a healthy weight at breeding may not require much in the way of grain until the last month.


----------



## 20kidsonhill

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I have a different approach to feeding.  Ideally the ewes/does/whatever will be in good condition (but NOT overconditioned) going into breeding season, so that they can maintain during the early months of gestation.  I generally don't feed grain during the first 3-4 months of gestation, because they dont' have much different nutritional needs than they did when they were open.  Once they start into the last month of gestation, I'll start feeding grain to meet the demands of the growing fetuses.  I really don't want the doe to be overconditioned when she delivers, and I dont' want her losing condition that last month since it's so hard on them once they do lamb/kid.
> 
> There are probably theories that feeding grain or increasing nutrition that last month makes for big babies, but this has never been a problem for me ever, or on the sheep farm where I worked. It's pretty common practice to increase nutrition that last month.


This is also how we do it, all our yearling does are kept on about 3 cups of grain a day until after they are bred, then they are taken off of all grain and on just hay or just pasture, along with loose minerals.  30 days befor kidding we start them back on grain working up to about 1lb (3cups) a day close to the kidding time. They are then put on lactating/nursing rations, weaned at 8 weeks and taken off of all grains until 2 weeks before breeding again. Then they are fed some corn for two weeks, bred and off of all grain again until 30 days before kidding.  

If a doe has problems and looses condition due to worms or something, they are given 1 lb of grain a day until I feel their condition looks better. 

I want the does to look filled in before breeding, but none of them to be over conditioned. I actually expect them to look on the thin side after kidding and nursing. But I am not showing any of my older does, Your theory would be different if you need them in good condition all year long. I am okay with mine looking on the thin side on occasion. Plus boer goats, can put weight back on fairly easily.  


Right now I have 3 yearlings bred to our new herd sire.  I am concerned about singles, and this is a new herd sire with a history in the blood-lines of throwing big headed kids. Yearlings were bred right at 12 months and are due beginning of June. He was 9 months old and his first time breeding.  They are on pasture only, I gave them Bo-se shots last week and vaccinated them, did there feet. I am afraid to give them any grain. We will see how that goes, May regret that decision.   But I always figure a smaller kid has a chance to survive were as a big stuck kid wont only not survive, but as we all know neither will the doe.   

You have to know your goats/breeds and blood-lines. Right now it is looking like two are carrying singles and one is carrying a set of twins.


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## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Having had a vet assisted delivery of a 10# kid  with Sasha (100# soaking wet!)last year, vet said I may have overfed just a wee bit!  This season we fed considerably less the last month, still got twins weighing 8# each and again an awful vet assisted delivery. Even tho the buck we bred her to is not any taller than her he produces  fairly big kids across the board with all the does. We are going to breed her this season to a proven Nigerian known to produce really tiny kids. Got to know my vet really well, she helped deliver 2 does last year (Sasha and my daughters Nigerian Dwarf Natalie, both horribly traumatic deliveries of twisted up big kids) and Sasha's twins  this year. Expensive milk! Hope your other 2 girls have an uneventful textbook delivery of little doelings for you. If you don't have a vet on call, you might want to consider buying a kid puller asap, it saved both does from Csections, vet has one but I prefer to use my own. Jeffers sells them, not too expensive.
> 
> edited to add, I will say tho my 2 deliveries this year cost about $180 each including the vet trip charge to my barn. Did Cali have a C-section or did the vet pull the kid?


The Plymouth Animal Hospital emergency staff(between midnight & 2:30am) chose to pull the kid instead of doing the c-section, because the kid was already dead. They said doing the c-section with a deceased kid would increase her odds of developing an infection.  We were/are impressed with how they handled Cali, espescially since they hadn't dealt with goats before.



> all the feeding=kid size replies


I would like to restate here, that Cali's buckling was average size for a Nigerian Dwarf/Pygmy cross, 4-5 lbs. It was Cali's small frame/pelvic size that was the issue. Also, the buckling was quite thin.
I think we will keep the girls on our current feeding plan and see how it all turns out. The girls are in no way looking overconditioned. In fact, somedays they look underconditioned... in Maude's case, I think it is the late pregnancy sinking sides.


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## chandasue

So sorry to read all this.  
I've been out for a while and just getting caught up.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> all the feeding=kid size replies
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to restate here, that Cali's buckling was average size for a Nigerian Dwarf/Pygmy cross, 4-5 lbs. It was Cali's small frame/pelvic size that was the issue. Also, the buckling was quite thin.
> I think we will keep the girls on our current feeding plan and see how it all turns out. The girls are in no way looking overconditioned. In fact, somedays they look underconditioned... in Maude's case, I think it is the late pregnancy sinking sides.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would argue that her age/maturity wasn't the issue.  Just responding to a query about how everyone feeds their own does.


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## Livinwright Farm

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all the feeding=kid size replies
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to restate here, that Cali's buckling was average size for a Nigerian Dwarf/Pygmy cross, 4-5 lbs. It was Cali's small frame/pelvic size that was the issue. Also, the buckling was quite thin.
> I think we will keep the girls on our current feeding plan and see how it all turns out. The girls are in no way looking overconditioned. In fact, somedays they look underconditioned... in Maude's case, I think it is the late pregnancy sinking sides.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't think anyone would argue that her age/maturity wasn't the issue.  Just responding to a query about how everyone feeds their own does.
Click to expand...

Oh, yeah... I know that.  Just responding to the comments about overfeeding equaling overly large kids.


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## Livinwright Farm

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> I have a different approach to feeding.  Ideally the ewes/does/whatever will be in good condition (but NOT overconditioned) going into breeding season, so that they can maintain during the early months of gestation.  I generally don't feed grain during the first 3-4 months of gestation, because they dont' have much different nutritional needs than they did when they were open.  Once they start into the last month of gestation, I'll start feeding grain to meet the demands of the growing fetuses.  I really don't want the doe to be overconditioned when she delivers, and I dont' want her losing condition that last month since it's so hard on them once they do lamb/kid.
> 
> There are probably theories that feeding grain or increasing nutrition that last month makes for big babies, but this has never been a problem for me ever, or on the sheep farm where I worked. It's pretty common practice to increase nutrition that last month.


I agree with/follow this advice. It's what I found for advice through many different goat sites, including a couple of goat society's pages


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## St0rmyM00n

Livinwright Farm , I am very sorry for your loss.
A lot of us waited and waited for little Cali to have her baby and watched her grow I don't know about the others but I got quite attached over the time and was very heart broken to hear what happen. 

You did your best and I want to thank you for sharing your story with us all it has been a great learning experience for me as a new goat owner.

It took me a while to post here cause I was really upset at the outcome but I understand these things will happen. I have to learn how to cope with this my self. You have had such an awesome attitude this whole time I don't know if I could hold it together as well as you have. 

She isn't even mine and I have cried every time I read your posts. 
I look forward to reading about Momma and Maud. 

Best wishes for them both and lots of girly vibes that they both have little girls.


((((( HUGS ))))


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## elevan

Livinwright Farm said:
			
		

> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to restate here, that Cali's buckling was average size for a Nigerian Dwarf/Pygmy cross, 4-5 lbs. It was Cali's small frame/pelvic size that was the issue. Also, the buckling was quite thin.
> I think we will keep the girls on our current feeding plan and see how it all turns out. The girls are in no way looking overconditioned. In fact, somedays they look underconditioned... in Maude's case, I think it is the late pregnancy sinking sides.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone would argue that her age/maturity wasn't the issue.  Just responding to a query about how everyone feeds their own does.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, yeah... I know that.  Just responding to the comments about overfeeding equaling overly large kids.
Click to expand...

I want to apologize for taking the thread off topic by my comment which started this.

It's my opinion that kids that are approximately 5-7% of the does weight seem to be the safest to deliver.  While your buckling was average size for a ND / Pygmy...Cali was approximately 20# smaller than a full grown ND / Pygmy...meaning her buckling was more like 10-11% of her body weight...making it a large kid.  Does that make sense?

eta: It really does come down to needing to evaluate the needs of each doe.


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## Livinwright Farm

elevan said:
			
		

> Livinwright Farm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> n.smithurmond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone would argue that her age/maturity wasn't the issue.  Just responding to a query about how everyone feeds their own does.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, yeah... I know that.  Just responding to the comments about overfeeding equaling overly large kids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I want to apologize for taking the thread off topic by my comment which started this.
> 
> It's my opinion that kids that are approximately 5-7% of the does weight seem to be the safest to deliver.  While your buckling was average size for a ND / Pygmy...Cali was approximately 20# smaller than a full grown ND / Pygmy...meaning her buckling was more like 10-11% of her body weight...making it a large kid.  Does that make sense?
> 
> eta: It really does come down to needing to evaluate the needs of each doe.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying about comparitive sizing between kid & dam. And, yup! It sure does come down to individual does... For instance, with what I have been feed the girls over the last few weeks, and them not looking a bit over conditioned, if I were to knock that back at all, I assume they would look like skin & bones in a week or so.  Just like people, they all have different metabolisms.

Oh and on a side note: Falkor decided he wanted out of the fenced in area... so he fiddled with the latch on the gate without me knowing, and next thing I know, he was clear on the other side of the house!  Apparently the weeds he had access to were not the right ones for his "delicate system"


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## elevan

*How are Maude and Momma doing?*


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## Livinwright Farm

Funny you should ask, Emily  

I was watching Maude earlier, and started looking her over... I then noticed that her udder has just about doubled in size since Monday. She might go sooner than I was thinking, but I won't let her know that.  Below are links to the most recent pics. If I had a way to do it, I would shave Maude's back end, but she WON'T allow it.

*Maude*
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&type=1&theater&pid=377259&id=130986543621963
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&type=1&theater&pid=377260&id=130986543621963

*Momma*
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&type=1&theater&pid=377261&id=130986543621963

Edited to add: Momma is still Momma, and focussed on reinforcing her status as herd queen every 10 minutes   At least there haven't been any pot shots.


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## oakmarsh nigerians

Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear of your loss! Cali was beautiful, and I'm sure the buckling was too. I hope that Momma and Maude have easy deliveries for you!

Both of my Nigerian does are in condition. The one who had triplets was given a cup of Maximum Goat in the a.m. and p.m. for the last 2 months (since we weren't sure of her real date). She had pasture, grass hay, a handful of alfalfa, and minerals. I've been told that the babies were too big (4.8 lbs, 4.1 lbs, and 3.7 lbs), but she did very well. So, next time I will be more certain of the date and probably give the increased grain only the last 3 or 4 weeks. She was thin after delivery, but not bad. She filled back in within 2 weeks. The other doe is smaller, so she gets a bit less grain.


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## Livinwright Farm

Ladies and Gentlemen,
   Please welcome our newest little arrival!!    
*Livinwright Farm Maude's Olivia!!!!!!*
She is almost a PERFECT chamoisee!!!!  Just a tiny little white crescent atop her head and a TINY little white spot on her upper left underbelly behind her front leg.    

Her first picture can be found here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Livin...39159970.43720.130986543621963&type=1&theater


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## goatdreamerCT

She's precious!!!!! Congrats!!!


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## Livinwright Farm

goatdreamerCT said:
			
		

> She's precious!!!!! Congrats!!!


We need to go get a feed scale that we can weigh her on!!  Maude wasn't expected to pop for another week or so!!


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## elevan

I'm so happy for you!!!!

Congratulations! She's beautiful!


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## Goatherd

She's very pretty!


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## Livinwright Farm

Figured I would update... 

the single doeling's weight: 5 lbs  

We are still waiting for the camera batteries to finish charging up, then we will post a video to our FB page, and post the link here.


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## PattySh

Wonderful news! Congrats on the cute baby girl. You got your pink!


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## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Wonderful news! Congrats on the cute baby girl. You got your pink!


One more doe to go... I felt movement on Momma's right side 4 days ago... hoping for twins or triplets... and if Marly was the one to get at her, then we could have virtually identical kids this year.  Maude's doeling is almost copy of Cali's buckling, only the white on Olivia's head is just a sliver instead of the star that was on the buckling, and Olivia only has one little spot behind her left front leg instead of the group of 4-5  little white spots that were on the buckling in the same location.


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## PattySh

Did you get to see the birth or did u go out and find a baby?


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## Livinwright Farm

PattySh said:
			
		

> Did you get to see the birth or did u go out and find a baby?


I went out & heard the tiny high pitch bleating, and thought, 'Nuh-uh..'
But sure enough, there she was!     I never would have expected Maude to go this soon.  Apparently she is one of the "hey, I've doubled my udder size within a week, get ready for the baby/babies"  Good to know for future breedings/kiddings!!


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## Livinwright Farm

Here is the link for the promised video of Olivia & Maude:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=227476973929510&oid=130986543621963&comments

I did witness Olivia latch on to one of Maude's teats, as to whether she actually got anything from that particular teat, who knows.  Will post anoter video later today.


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## Livinwright Farm

Here is another video of Olivia & Maude...  Maude & Olivia's first day out since kidding ^_^


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## Livinwright Farm

I can still occassionally feel movement on/in Momma's upper right side & her underbelly... so it is looking good... still waiting for her to start blossoming in the udder department.


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## Livinwright Farm

Well, we are still waiting on Momma to show signs of nearing the end of her pregnancy, and now we are waiting into November for Minnie to kid Falkor's offspring!  She should kid multiples, as she kidded twins with her FF and triplets with her SF.    can't wait for fluffy caramel babies!!


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## Livinwright Farm

Felt, I think only 1, baby kicking/pushing in Momma's right side... then felt a head brush "over" my palm... don't want to get my hopes up too much that Momma could actually be carrying multiples, but....    !!!!!


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## BCBunnies

I'm hoping all goes as smoothly as your kidding of Olivia, well with the exception that you would get to see the action this time. I'm just getting back into goats myself have 3 little Boers that I'll be feeding out for a while before they are old enough to breed. Also wanted to say I'm sorry for the loss of little Cali and her buckling.  Keep the thread updated and looking forward to pics of the new arrival(s)!


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## Livinwright Farm

Going by udder development, it looks like Momma has 1-2 weeks left until she kids. still hoping for twins at the very least, but knowing it is not typical from bucks so young.


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## elevan

_Bucks have nothing to do with the number of kids, only the gender of them.

And udder development isn't always a good indicator of how long is left when they can fully bag up very quickly and boom - there are kids!_
*
Hoping for doeling(s) for you!*


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## Livinwright Farm

I had mentioned Momma's udder development, because she & Maude are sisters, and Maude only really started developing her udder roughly 2 weeks prior to kidding... _IF_ Momma is anything like her, then I have a rough estimate of how much longer we have to wait.


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## Mossy Stone Farm

I have 2 FF does who are about 12 days out for kidding they both started on their udders about a month ago... getting larger by the day... I had one doe i bought who did not have an undder until 2 days after she had her kids...


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## elevan

Mossy Stone Farm said:
			
		

> I have 2 FF does who are about 12 days out for kidding they both started on their udders about a month ago... getting larger by the day... I had one doe i bought who did not have an undder until 2 days after she had her kids...


I've got one who built and filled her udder 12 hours prior to kidding.  And yes, I said built and filled with 12 hours left to go!


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## Livinwright Farm

We are still looking for other signs(ligs, moaning, pawwing, etc)... Maude gave us no indication prior to kiddding though. I had checked her ligs at 10:30pm, which had not softened in the least, and by the next morning when I went out to feed everybody, there was Olivia... dry and fluffy.  Hoping Momma gives us more of an indication of when... cause we would really like to be there for her to bond to us more at the time of birth.


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