# A CAE/CL ? I've had the chance to ponder this evening...



## EggsForIHOP (Feb 3, 2012)

And I wanted to ask ya'll....

Our current herd is all CAE/CL free - the vet comes to me (thankfully) once a year no matter what for coggins and CAE and a few other things (we makes the farm call fee worth it when she's here).  So I know my current herd (small as it is) is all good to go in that aspect...HOWEVER...

I have the shot at 2 boer doelings (a decent mix with some Nubian in there from what I am told, but still out of high percentage parents...ALLEGEDLY as Kathy Griffin would say).

They were rejected at birth, have been on "powdered milk for goats" as the man told my husband today and one he thought was dead when he picked her up she "hollered at me and I knew she was alive".....

FREE because he (the owner) is ELDERLY...early 80's elderly...and "don't want to nurse 2 goats along so talk to your wife".....

He was forwarded to us through a co-worker of DH...sent me some pics of a beautiful looking herd of what appears to be healthy goats.  Though appearances can be deceiving, I can say at least he does care for them well considering his age and they live in a clean nice environment - which is a bonus and hard to find sometimes around here...you'd be surprised the places I have been to only to turn back around and say no thank you...One doeling is a triplet the other is a quad and she is SMALL from the pics, they are 7 and 13 days old now and have been in his garage "in a baby crib raising hell" he said...

Now, me myself and I would LOVE to add some meat goats to the herd, BUT my 2 top things are NO HORNS and CAE/CL free....the beauty here is they can still be disbudded easily AND they have been on a bottle...


So...what are they odds they have missed the bullet so to speak on this being rejected and basically pulled at birth? I mean, really, I could keep them apart until I can get testing done, and if worse comes to worse, they ARE meat type goats...so what do you think the odds are I may end up with 2 does that are healthy?  I did ask him when I called him if he had ever heard of or tested for the 2 things...and per him the reply was this:  "Yup, heard about it, thought about it, but people eat 'em and I've never had any swollen knees, only one congested udder and no lumps on my goats I didn't put there when I had to show one who the real boss is so I don't fret over it out here and I have some goats from the first herd that are 10 and 12 years old now"...bless his heart, I think he does love his goats, he just doesn't have the patience to feed these 2 and has offered in the future any more rejects to us "just so as not to have to nurse 'em like a nanny goat"...

So...any thoughts?  What would you do?  I have a 10 acre property at my disposal here to set up a long term quarantine...and a good processor down the road to avoid having to do the deed here...Am I nuts or is this potentially a good thing?


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2012)

I'd do it, keep 'em seperated, and get them tested.  

I'd be more worried about CAE than CL, simply b/c if they even *tried* to nurse they could have been exposed to CAE.
CL is only passed through getting the pus into an open scratch / wound.  
Chances are good they'll be "ok" on both counts, but (IMHO) CAE is the more likley *if* they have either.

I've yet to meet a meat goat producer who cares about CAE and they all think I'm nuts b/c I raise my keeper meat goats CAE prevention.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 4, 2012)

It can take a long time for kids that contracted CAE at birth to seroconvert.  You might get lucky, but be mentally prepared that after many months of TLC that they will test positive and need to be culled.  Or have a workable prevention plan in place if you plan to work with it on your farm.  Some people do- personally I would not.  I also would keep them in quarantine for an extended period until you know for sure they don't have CL.  The blood test for CL is inaccurate, so if they don't have an active abscess (which you would likely see and be able to have an exudate culture) they can test false negative.  Again, you might get lucky.  But for the sake of your herd I would treat them as if they are infected until you can verify otherwise.


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## autumnprairie (Feb 4, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'd do it, keep 'em seperated, and get them tested.
> 
> I'd be more worried about CAE than CL, simply b/c if they even *tried* to nurse they could have been exposed to CAE.
> CL is only passed through getting the pus into an open scratch / wound.
> ...


X2


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## elevan (Feb 4, 2012)

autumnprairie said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


x3


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## EggsForIHOP (Feb 4, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I'd do it, keep 'em seperated, and get them tested.
> 
> I'd be more worried about CAE than CL, simply b/c if they even *tried* to nurse they could have been exposed to CAE.
> CL is only passed through getting the pus into an open scratch / wound.
> ...


I think I might go ahead, talked to him again today, it's not raining, so I'm waiting on DH to hurry up and get it together so we can ride over there and look at them...I have 10 acres to separate things, and I do kind of have the possibility in my head they might be culled if anything pops up - I know it's gonna be a long time until we can test (my vet won't even attempt to pull blood until they are 6 months old or 50lbs) so I'm just kinda hoping they missed the bullet at this point...it would be nice to one day be able to have all the goats together, but considering they are babies anyways, they aren't going in with the big girls no matter what until they can hold their own with Bella...

And yes, he thought I was a little nuts being concerned I think...I'm betting the smaller one never got the chance to nurse and with the bigger one, who knows, but we might give it a shot...gonna go take an "up close" look and see what we think from there...I'll keep ya'll posted   I am finally getting to the point where I don't worry as much as I used to - this is a big step away from my "personal paranoia" today....


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## sunny (Feb 4, 2012)

I'd do it,
 Why not see if the guy will let you test the 2 mothers on your dime? It may not give you a completely accurate picture but, should give you a good idea to start with.


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## EggsForIHOP (Feb 4, 2012)

Well, I did it....I said YES...there weren't any obvious funky signs within his herd, which always makes me feel better (I KNOW that these things aren't always apparent, but at A GLANCE you would be hard pressed to find healthier goats)....


So now the waiting and count down to testing begins I suppose...until then I will have my hands full with bottle feeding and such...and DH is outside heating up the iron right now to get the oldest doeling disbudded...she's a little past "prime time" for that I would say...but not by much...


The other little squirt is SO tiny!  No wonder she got skipped over by her mama!  I saw her brothers and sister, and they are all twice her size...and then there is this TINY little thing!  I'm just HOPING she catches up in size....I think we can do it...she BARELY has any teeth even and at a week old is no where near needing to be disbudded yet!  Just petite!

More info and pics to follow in the "babies" section I guess!


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## Roll farms (Feb 4, 2012)




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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2012)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> The blood test for CL is inaccurate, so if they don't have an active abscess (which you would likely see and be able to have an exudate culture) they can test false negative.


I am just curious as to why you say the CL test is inaccurate. Since there are testing for antibodies in the blood it seems that the test would tell you if they have beeb exposed or not, same as it would for any other test that relies on titers.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 5, 2012)

The CL blood test is said to only be effective if the animal has an active abscess.  At times where they are asymptomatic the blood test can show a false negative.


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## babsbag (Feb 5, 2012)

That is a little disconcerting for those of us that have never had an abcess on ANY goat but have a few that test positive (my first goats, bought them before I knew) and others that test negative. Since the test is looking for antibodies wouldn't it detect them in the blood at any time, abcess or not?

Is there more than one kind of test that labs run? UC Davis is pretty adamant about their test being accurate. Am I living with a false since of security?


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Feb 6, 2012)

Pictures?


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## sunny (Feb 6, 2012)

babsbag said:
			
		

> That is a little disconcerting for those of us that have never had an abcess on ANY goat but have a few that test positive (my first goats, bought them before I knew) and others that test negative. Since the test is looking for antibodies wouldn't it detect them in the blood at any time, abcess or not?
> 
> Is there more than one kind of test that labs run? UC Davis is pretty adamant about their test being accurate. Am I living with a false since of security?


The CL test is known for being fairly inaccurrate. No if there is not an active abcess the test will not pick it up out of the blood. The bacteria is walled off in the lymph nodes completely. The only accurate test is testing the pus of an active abcess. Also, any goats that have been vacinated for CL will always test possative.
 In your position, I would send samples to WADDL and see how the results differ. They are easier to work with and explain things a little better. They can tell you when a false possitive is probably from a vaccination also.  All labs are pretty adament about their test being the beast one. They want the bussiness and the research dollars that the testing can lead to.


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## KinderKorner (Feb 6, 2012)

I disagree. I seen a goat with no abcesses test pos. and I seen a goat with abcesses that were checked by a vet and she did testing on them and said that they were dead cells and had no living bacteria in them. The goat still tested pos. 

I also seen a goat have their entire lymph nodes removed by a vet intact and guess what 6 months later they still tested pos.

I've also seen goats with no absesses for years test pos. I don't believe it will give you negative if it doesn't have an active lump. CL is terrible diease, but I don't think you should freak people out. Although there is a chance a goat can be pos if they test negative, just like any other test the chances are slim. If your goats test negative, and you haven't seen any lumps, there is no reason to be scared into thinking you have CL because the test may have given you a false negative. Everyone would live in fear then. 

I think UC Davis is fairly accurate. Nothing is 100% though. 

The test gives me extra assurance that my goats are diease free and clean. But I wouldn't rely completely on a test. My first assurance is that my herd is happy and healthy. I always have my hands on my goats and I am always aware of how they are doing.

I have not seen any proof that the CL test is any less accurate than the CAE test. Most of the studies about CAE and CL are from the 80's or 90's so really can't be used as a valid point. 

Just like any test there are mistakes or maybe your goat just caught it and doesn't have enough in it's blood to test pos. But at this time these tests are all we have offered. 

As goat breeders our responsibility is to do our best we can with what we have. I test yearly, and although I can't 100% sure say that one of my goats will never get a lump or test pos. so far I've never had any reason to think they aren't neg.

Good luck! Others before me have already given solid advice. I just wanted to calm your fears about testing a little bit, I think there would be antibodies in the blood, just like any other diease.


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## sunny (Feb 6, 2012)

I was actually suggesting that hers were false positives. The testing is a tool, used to determine whole herd health. The test of one individual may or may not be accurate.
From WADDL
The serology test is best used as a screen to find out if a herd or flock has been infected, rather than to diagnose an individual animal with CL. An individual animal positive CL serology test does not necessarily mean an animal is infected with C. pseudotuberculosis or has CL. Furthermore, the test cannot distinguish between natural exposure and vaccination, therefore vaccinated herds may test positive. Nonetheless, herds with a high proportion of animals with positive SHI tests are very likely to contain C. pseudotuberculosis infected animals, whereas herds with few or no SHI positive animals may represent little risk of CL introduction. Animals within a positive herd are at risk for developing abscesses, and the herd should be monitored for visible subcutaneous abscesses. Titers in an individual animal do not correlate well with risk of abscess development. 
A negative serologic result on an individual animal does not definitively rule out infection by C. pseudotuberculosis. The confidence in a negative result is enhanced if most or all herd mates also test negative.


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## KinderKorner (Feb 6, 2012)

Yep. It's possible. I think once they are exposed they will be pos. forever. It's still in debate on whether or not they actually have it and/or will infect other goats years after having no absesses. There just isn't enough known about it at this point in time.


I believe UC David does a different test than WADDL. I heard it's more accurate which is why I use them. But I could be wrong.  I can't remember where I got that information because it was a year or two ago. But I'm pretty sure they test differently. 

Hmm I'll have to try to find out where I heard that from.


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## sunny (Feb 7, 2012)

WADDL outsources their CL tests to UC Davis so, it is the same lab doing the tests sent in to both universities. I prefer to use them as they are easier to talk to and also I can sent my blood sample to Bio-tracking for CAE and preg, they send it to WADDL for Johnes, tubercullosis, retest CAE, etc, they send it to UC Davis for CL. All the best labs and it only costs $10.00 extra. WADDL gives the results and answers your questions on all but the Bio-tracking test. Maybe they decode it a little differently they do read the results even though UC Davis does the test.


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