# I know I picked a winner!



## KinderKorner (Sep 29, 2013)

If anyone remembers I got a Anatolian Puppy back in July.

He is huge now, and we had some trouble with him.

Starting a couple weeks ago when we brought in a new goat he started chasing and playing too rough with my herd. So as per advice from friends we had to take him out, because no matter what training we tried he wouldn't listen.

He is also getting mouthy, and if we let him off the leash outside his pen he will NOT come when called. 

I was starting to get a little frustrated with his suddenly bad behavior. He has always been good before. But I tried to remember that he is just going through his rowdy teenage stage. 

Right now he is in with my old horse. 

I was starting to wonder about his guarding abilities because he NEVER barks except when an animal tries to eat his food. Which is great, because he doesn't keep me up at night. But he is also lazy and spends most of his day sleeping in the shade. He doesn't even like to play very much. I was worried I picked a dud.

We even had a bonfire last week with a dozen strangers and he didn't even come to the fence line. He just completely ignored them. 

He is the most laid back dog I've ever seen. If you yell at him, or he doesn't want to walk on the leash he just lays down.

Well yesterday me and my husband were going on a date. I had on a very bold blue and white striped, flowy sun dress. I walked outside to do something and I heard a few little barks. And I was like "oh great the neighbors dog got out." So I turned around and Kuzco is up against his fence looking at me with his hackles up. 

I didn't know what was wrong with him so I said "it's okay boy" and walked towards him with my hands out.

Before I knew it he was barking very loudly (and scarily) I might add. They were deep threatening barks. He was snarling, and glaring at me. 

I tried to calm him but nothing would work, he starting pacing between the horse and the goat's fence line where the herd was alarmed from his backing and huddled up against his fence. 

I went back inside to get my husband to show him, and I'll be danged if that dog didn't continue barking for over 15 minutes while I was inside. 

I took the dress off and changed back into my normal attire, jeans. Then I walked back outside holding up the dress in front me me. Same reaction.

Then I walked towards the goats, and he started charging the fence. 

Then I lowered the dress, and the second I did that he ran to me when his tail between his legs and dropped for me to rub his belly.

It was so strange. I don't think he would have attacked me because he was charging then running back a few feet. And if I came at him he would run towards the goats.

I was amused that he had that type of barking in him, and that he was willing to defend his herd. All this in a 6 month old pup.

After the dress was lowered he went back to sleeping in the shade as if nothing happened. 

Now I'm confident that if an intruder went for his goats he would defend them. And I'm pretty sure anyone would be too scared to come inside that pen while he was barking like that. 

I still don't know why he didn't like the dress. But I changed and wore something else.


----------



## secuono (Sep 29, 2013)

Do you ever wear dresses? Even chickens don't like new clothes.


----------



## Baymule (Sep 29, 2013)

My dog goes bonkers if I put on a wide brim hat. Anything that changes your normal look will set them off until they figure out that it is you. My dog charged at me snarling and barking until his nose touched my leg, then he looked all silly at me. I laughed and I swear, he got the joke and laughed too.


----------



## bcnewe2 (Sep 30, 2013)

I walked in the upper sheep loafing shed and my 10 month old Anatolian woke up, jumped up, hackles up and didn't stop till I went out and came in the proper door.  Then she looked a bit ashamed but I was happy to know she's doing her job.  
She has gotten herself in a bit of trouble playing with one particular lamb. She is loving it, but a bit to much.  The ewe is my pet so I don't think she is protecting her lamb.  The other ewes will ram her if she get rambunctious but they don't mind when their lambs climb all over her. 
Gotta love these dogs!


----------



## Grazer (Sep 30, 2013)

I can cover my head in a paper bag and wear a potato sack if I'd want to and my dogs would never charge me or think I was someone else. 
Dogs sense of smell is their most refined sense. 
If anything, my dogs would merely be very interested in any new piece of clothing and they would just happily come and sniff.

*Edited to add: don't expect your LGD to be 100 % obedient or 100 % trustworthy when off  leash. It's just not how these dogs roll.
They are very independent and have a mind of their own.
But with that said, the more you work on your relationship with your LGD, the more he'll listen, trust you and follow your lead (_having a good bond with one's LGD doesn't makes them any less effective as LGD's_).


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 1, 2013)

I think Jesse knew me but her instinct to protect her sleeping herd and the fact that she was sleeping soundly herself confused her and she growled. I wasn't afraid of her in the least.  I am glad to see she even has the nerve to growl at a human.  She is very submissive.

I have had her on a leash long enough to leash break her (not very well no matter how we worked on it) but other than that she is never on a leash. If I want her in the morning I'd have to walk up to her cool spot and call her to me from there but in the evening she is at the gate waiting on dinner and lovies.  I can holler at her out the back door and she will respond. But as far as her coming to me. If it is not at an ordinary time I have to be closer to her rather than fields away. I do consider her 100% trust worthy. Not sure what content you meant by that.  

All dogs seem to be creatures of habit. Break the routine and they take a few minutes to figure things out.


----------



## KinderKorner (Oct 1, 2013)

I've wore dresses before, but this was a very bright and long flowy one. The wind was blowing it everywhere. 

I don't believe for second he would have attacked me. He didn't like the dress, but when I talked to him he still acknowledged me. I think he thought it was attacking me or something. 

Yesterday I got it out again and he was much calmer. He didn't bark he just stared curiously at it, then tucked his tail and ran. When I carried it over to him he came up to me a little scared and sniffed it. 

I'm just glad to see a little aggressiveness. Not that I want a mean dog, but as someone else said he has been the most submissive dog I've ever seen, and I don't want a wimp as a guardian. 

He's a funny guy. I love him to pieces, even if he is more brawn than brain.


----------



## Grazer (Oct 1, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> I think Jesse knew me but her instinct to protect her sleeping herd and the fact that she was sleeping soundly herself confused her and she growled. I wasn't afraid of her in the least.  I am glad to see she even has the nerve to growl at a human.  She is very submissive.
> 
> I have had her on a leash long enough to leash break her (not very well no matter how we worked on it) but other than that she is never on a leash. If I want her in the morning I'd have to walk up to her cool spot and call her to me from there but in the evening she is at the gate waiting on dinner and lovies.  I can holler at her out the back door and she will respond. But as far as her coming to me. If it is not at an ordinary time I have to be closer to her rather than fields away. I do consider her 100% trust worthy. Not sure what content you meant by that.
> 
> All dogs seem to be creatures of habit. Break the routine and they take a few minutes to figure things out.


Oops, I didn't specify in my previous message that I was responding to the opening post.
Therein the OP was explaining that when they let their LGD off the leash outside his pen he will not come when called.
So I said it is so typical for LGD's not to be reliable off leash and to come on their terms (_like for example if they are in the field and the owner calls them, a lot of times they'll look like they are trying to say: well, what's in it for me? or be suspicious if the owner doesn't calls them at their usual time, wondering if the owner wants to take them to the vet lol_).
That is what I meant when I said they will never be 100 % trustworthy when off  leash. 
I'm sorry for the confusion. 

You are absolutely right, all dogs are creatures of habit. I would say LGD breeds even more so, just like cats they notice pretty much every change in their environment. 

@KinderKorner,
I totally understand the whole "wanting a guardian dog you can relay on when needed" thing. 
That is exactly what I look for in a dog too: to be a stable, protective, confident dog (_now with that said the dogs we have are not suited for most people out there, they take protectiveness to a whole new level, our male mainly that is_).
So I think Anatolians are normally good as deterrents to thieves/burglars while at the same time they are normally not very aggressive.  
It is however very important not to have a dog that is fear-aggressive as these dogs will back down and run away when under pressure.
But hopefully this is not the case with your Toli (it is very difficult to comment on a dog over the internet).
My advice would be to just do more things with him and build a good bond with him. 
Include your Anatolian when you do things around the farm on a daily basis and then praise him a lot when he watches you do stuff without bothering any of the animals.

I don't know if your LGD gets daily play time, but this will help him get rid of excess energy and it will help create a better bond.
So I would just play with him on a daily basis on a pasture where there are no other animals. 
These dogs are so creative when they play; for example they'll look for tree branches and they will bring these to you, tease you with it so you can chase them.
Or if he really doesn't wants to play, you can just put him on a leash and walk around your property.
Doing basic obedience is really important too. 
They might be stubborn but they are also fast learners when they want to be.
It helps if you can find out what his favorite food is. For our dogs that's freshly cooked/baked chicken.


Btw, this is how dogs see colors:


----------



## Robbin (Oct 1, 2013)

Grazer your post on Anatolians is spot on.  Mine is an amazing dog, responds well, does what he's told, right up until HE decides not to...  I love you comment, the "what's in it for me" look.
Mine went to puppy class and has a good old border collie as a mentor.  So he's not overly aggressive, he tolerates strange people and dogs without a problem.  Right up until the sun goes down.  Then he's all business.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 2, 2013)

These are great posts!

I have had a death in the family and have not been on much, I sure miss it here especially the LGD section! LOL
I find the experiences from the different posters to be very interesting and so varied.

Grazer makes a great observation with the sense of smell and sight.  It really got me to thinking how so very different our family protection/house dogs are from our LGDs. 

Just a theory here but our German Shepherd Dog I believe relies more on smell. She is in a home environment and this is her territory, she knows all of our smells so when a different smell comes about she intuitively knows something is up. She was awarded a VP at the nat seiger as 6-9 pup, went off for Schutzhund training and something happened we got her at 1 year we have worked to undo damage done by a bad trainer. She has gained her confidence back but can be somewhat timid. Not the most desirable trait and I have never owned a messed-up GSD. Recently we have had a few things happen that allowed us to see despite the timidity ( NOTE- timidity does not mean fearful) she will spring into action as necessary- We had a family member (Aunt) come by, we hadnt seen her for months. Normally we hear the car pull up and everyone goes out to say hi and we all come in the house.. no biggy. This one particular day no-one was here except for me ( I was napping on the couch). There are always lots of people here Aunt M just walked in the door, like usual, but with no escort- Thankfully I was only dozing- the door opened and our GSD was across the room and had Aunt M in a holding pattern I grabbed her choker. By hold I mean in front barking teeth bared not allowing Aunt M to move- the dog never put her mouth on her  just keeping the intruder still and unable to move. When Aunt M went to raise her hand I was glad to have hold of the choker. I had to pull her back, introduce her and say it is ok. After that all was fine. Aunt M is a seasoned dog person who use to show and knows dogs- The dogs instinct and training did come to her when needed. Same dog a few weeks later sees our farming partner- sight only this time- our partner was in a new winter Carhart full body suit. When he tried it on and came out the GSD must have thought it was a bad guy looks just like the suits used in training for schutzhund- she went nuts, like she was back in training she did not rely on smell but only by sight. Once he spoke and she realized who it was she was okay the suit however cannot be left out as she will destroy it. Of course that is an example of the poor schutzhund training done in the states.

On the contrary- The LGDs that are working on the farm and in the fields I believe *(theory)* again rely much more on sight and sound. There are so many smells and they are continually changing, that my observation as far as behavior goes, is smell is not the first sense used. Because they are not house dogs with only so many scents, but outdoors, instinct for action precedes. Badger (Great Pyrenees male) was sound asleep, or so we thought, one night when my DD thought oops I dont think I closed the blue gate to the front field. She went out and could see the pyrs sleeping by the gate close to the house. She went around the front field through the hotwire, so no clanging gates etc and was down the field to the blue gate when Badger came up head over the gate fiercely protecting his charges THANKFULLY that gate was closed already. She (DD) was terrified. She immediately said its mommy. He stopped and was down wagging tail. She never heard him, never saw him nothing.. but he was there stealthy and ready yet 1 minute before he looked sound asleep. He definitely heard and saw and acted. Could he have smelled and realized no threat? Yes, but I think our LGDs are hard wired to leap into action first ALWAYS ANNOUNCE YOURSELF ESPECIALLY IN THE DARK!

In a team situation you can see the partnership of the dogs also and seeing a LGD move backwards also does not mean the dog is timid or fearful. Some newer LGD owners may not understand this behavior. A young dog is still building confidence so do not be discouraged by the backing away. Remember a pup is still a pup. Most LGD breeds are NOT people aggressive. There is a big difference in guardian dogs and LIVESTOCK guardian dogs. One of our teams (M/F) displays excellent teamwork. When there is a threat the F (smaller) stays on the fence where the threat is perceived. The M will also approach and then back away he will immediately run the perimeter, sometimes circling back 3-4 times. This is instinct so the dogs are not tricked by a pack of coyotes. The one dog that backs up is immediately looking to see where all the goats are and then hitting every area. Once all is determined to be safe he will return to the female who is still barking like mad and he will signal all is well. That is a team. *When you have a single LGD there is difficulty as their instinct is to guard and keep all safe. *Some of the above posters are watching the dog trying to do all the jobs. Barking and then backing up to the barn where the sheep and goats are would be natural. That isnt the dog being fearful or timid in most cases, just a lot of jobs for one dog. Also when these dogs go into action mode they DO NOT hear you- you are not their focus, it is a sight to behold. They are very unlike a personal protection dog (like my GSD) that I can give a command in the mode of action and will cease immediately, the LGD will not- That is where their innate independence comes in.

NONE of my dogs (LGDs or house) accept hats. Hats come off around here until they know it is us and then it is all fine. This tells me they do rely as much on sight as anything. I never wear perfumes or lotions, yet I happened to get the lotion Poppy by Coach ( Great scent BTW ladies) anyway I went out to the field dogs come running happy as always but something wasnt right They SEE it is me yet my scent isnt lining up  they are sniffing to the point of annoyance and looking up , sniff, look part of their brain was saying this is mom (Sight) and part of their brain was saying this is NOT mom (Scent). 

When you look at many of the LGDs throughout Europe you will see they are not behind fences.. but on the mountainside guarding, they are socialized and are not people aggressive. Hikers etc can move through WITH signs of instruction of what to do and not to do. These are stable guardians. Sadly here in the states too many people have read Ray Coppingers books and have done a great dis-service to these animals! I think Grazer wrote on this in another thread ( awesome read if you can find it) . Grazer is IMO 100% right on! These LGDs should be loved on, basic obedience, well socialized, and BONDED with their humans as well as their livestock. This crap of shoving them in a field with a single pat on the head is ridiculous. All of our LGDs can be in the house, will always respect us, can be taken to TSC and Lowes, can travel and yet they can, do , and LOVE their jobs in the field. They PREFER their field yet those foundations of their people relationships make them much more dependable and stable. Like Grazer said many of the LGD breeds are not highly human aggressive dogs. They are wired to take down a coyote, wolf, etc but they are not suppose to be vicious or highly aggressive towards humans.  
We have Anatolian and Pyrs they are laid back dogs that are really mellow yet they can act and do whatever needs to be done. For those that are new to the LGD world dont be discouraged or doubt whether your dog can do its job if it isnt showing aggression. By 1 year they are pretty much able to handle the job but it isnt til almost 2 years old that they are really confident and have discernment. Although not highly people aggressive they are extremely protective of their field. They cannot ever be bribed with food by any stranger ever. They will only take food from us, period. Now in the house if we have people over they will look at us and "ask" if it is ok.

Having LGD breeds that come from actual working stock is also important. Many of the LGD breeds listed  are no longer used or bred for LGD work. Tibetans, Shars, and some of the other rarer in the states dogs are NOT being used in this capacity. Many of these breeds are being bred for personal guardians and the human aggressiveness is being promoted whereas many of the livestock guardian traits are being lost. Grazer wrote another fantastic post about how there are some very unscrupulous people advertising and selling under the guise of LGDs when what they are doing is importing dogs are they are training them and raising certain breeds for fighting and human aggressiveness.

Like all of you there is something so touching and special about these dogs that once you have had a great working LGD you will never want to be without one.


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Interesting Southern. I think you are spot on with the site thing.  The smells here would be overwhelming but sites change way less so seem to be reacted on first.
Just this morning Jesse was a field away. She saw her sister border collies playing rather rough. She tore to the fence growling and warning the intruders. Saw it was her family and quickly hushed.

The other day I was out of town. A nice neighbor called me and told me they had my dog. I asked where they were. Right at the top of our electric fence field. I sent my son to collect her. He was mad that he had to force her in his car. She wouldn't be moved. Just played "dead dog". I asked where the sheep were. He said down the hill. I wondered but didn't worry since she was home. Later that evening DH went up to check the fence and found half the flock in a deep grass field outside or our fence. DS hadn't noticed. 
That was the reason she didn't want to come home. She was staying with her sheep. Even though she was actually in another neighbors yard she could since and see what people had not (her sheep in the wrong place). The neighbors did not restrain her, they said she was just laying in their yard in the shade. They gave her water and dinner and I was thrilled that they didn't feel the need to restrain her waiting on me.

I can't tell you the depth of wonder these dogs cause.  Just boggles my mind. Nice to find others with the same boggled mind!


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 2, 2013)

WOW! How awesome is that! I love your dog ya know! 
She really is so impressive.  Love those Toli's!


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 2, 2013)

Me to southern...me too! I really don't think its just because she's a toli, it's her.  I feel like I won the lottery!


----------



## Grazer (Oct 3, 2013)

Well I've never had my own dog charging at me thinking I was someone else, regardless of whether I smelled differently or looked differently.
Nor do I think that the farm smells can overwhelm the smelling abilities of a dog with a normal muzzle (i.e. not Brachycephalic) regardless of the breed.
I have owned and been around many both LGD and non-LGD breeds over the years and in my opinion the sense of smell in LGD breeds is excellent.
Even though unlike hounds LGD's are often not very scent driven.

Some interesting articles about sense of smell in dogs (this can help one understand just how powerful this sense is in dogs)


According to: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-a-dogs-sense-of-smell.html 
The percentage of the dog's brain that is devoted to analyzing smells is actually 40 times larger than that of a human.
And according to http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/dogsenses.htm 
A human has about 5 million scent glands, compared to a dog, who has anywhere from 125 million to 300 million (depending on the breed).
Dogs primarily communicate by smelling, seeing and lastly hearing. Dogs can see best at dusk and dawn. Their low-light vision is much better than a humans, but their overall vision is not better. 
While a humans vision is considered perfect at 20/20, a dog's vision is on average 20/75.


This article further demonstrates how complex dog's sense of smell is: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128262.000-crittervision-what-a-dogs-nose-knows.html 

(I quote): "In this way, smell might give a dog a way of understanding the passage of time, Horowitz suggests. A dog can perhaps perceive the past by smelling that a dog urinated here long enough ago that the scent has changed in character and become weaker. One recent study, from 2005, showed that dogs may even be able to detect the subtle differences in odour from one footstep to the next as they follow a human's scent trail (Chemical Senses, vol 30, p 291). The dog could imagine the future by picking up the scent of the dogs, humans or other objects coming towards them on the breeze."


LGD breeds that have historically been used as both guardians of livestock and guardians of humans/defenders against two legged intruders the most are Caucasian shepherds, Sarplaninac's (_plural in the native tongue would be Sarplaninci_), Tibetan Mastiffs, Kuvaszok and South-Russian shepherds.
But with that said, even in the above mentioned breeds you'll now see too many members of these breeds that no longer have what it takes to take out a human intruder.
Simply because most breeders nowadays select for an easy going, "softer" dog for several different reasons.
However, I have to note that most owners in reality don't really want or need a truly protective dog anyway.
They might think they do until they realize what kind of fencing these breeds need and how well they need to be socialized. 
For regular owners they are a lot of work and can be a liability in wrong hands.


----------



## MDres (Oct 3, 2013)

Grazer said:
			
		

> Well I've never had my own dog charging at me thinking I was someone else, regardless of whether I smelled differently or looked differently.
> Nor do I think that the farm smells can overwhelm the smelling abilities of a dog with a normal muzzle regardless of the breed.
> I have owned and been around many both LGD and non-LGD breeds over the years and in my opinion the sense of smell in LGD breeds is excellent.
> Even though unlike hounds LGD's are often not very scent driven.


If the LGD is upwind of a person, they are going to have trouble smelling them, in which case, they need to rely on sight and sound.

Wind is something I am sure LGD's have adapted to over eons of their use. Predators understand and use wind to their advantage, they don't want their prey smelling them before they strike. In order to protect a flock from what they cannot smell, a LGD has to rely on sight and sound, maybe even moreso than smell.


----------



## Grazer (Oct 3, 2013)

MDres, if we would to follow your logic, then the sense of smell wouldn't be the most important sense to a wolf (because they equally have to relay on sight and hearing as LGD's).
And yet it is.
The sense of smell is the most important sense to a dog. This is not to say that they don't use their other senses, they use them all the time.
I have never read any scientific study nor have I personally ever experienced that the sense of sight and hearing is more important to LGD's than the sense of smell.
If anything, I have noticed that their sense of smell is far better than the sense of smell of the more modern molosser breeds.

*Edited to add: while I firmly believe that LGD breeds are quite different (_and when compared to certain other breeds completely different from_) the non-LGD breeds,
and while I am inclined to think that they perhaps have eyes as good as the sighthound breeds, I do not believe what so ever that their sense of smell is weaker than the sense of smell of non-LGD breeds with normal snouts. Something that I feel is being suggested in this thread.
But that is just my opinion based both on some scientific facts and my own experiences.


----------



## MDres (Oct 4, 2013)

I don't think anyone, me included, has said that LGD's cannot smell, or that their sense of smell is weaker than other dogs. I believe they can smell just fine, but I also believe they rely on sight and sound MORE than scent in MOST situations. It is the nature of the predator to want to approach from downwind, so that they cannot be smelled, so the LGD has to be able to discern where they are by sight and sound. 

Wolves are different than LGD's. There is not really much comparison between the two, and I don't see the connection between my post and wolves? While I am sure wolves do use sight and sound to track and hunt prey, they generally use scent more than sight and sound to first determine where that prey is, and to stay on it's trail/path.


----------



## Grazer (Oct 4, 2013)

All dogs originate from wolves and as with wolves, scent plays an incredible important role in dogs life. This has been proven time after time.
Wolves too have to deal with competitive predators or with humans who know how to use wind in their advantage and who have tracked them down and killed them in large numbers for centuries.

Predators and just animals in general that relay the most on sight and sound have a very different anatomy from canines.

Several dogs from random breeds have been shown to be able to detect cancers in their owners.
How dogs view world is something we humans probably can't truly comprehend. 
And there is no doubt in my mind that LGD's, like all other canines relay on their sense of smell the most.
Their other senses are very important, but their sense of smell is the most important one.


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 4, 2013)

Yes MDres I agree. I never meant to say that an lgd doesn't smell as good as a different breed but that they use their eye sight just as much or even more then their sence of smell.  
Have you ever heard of a site hound? A lurcher or an afgan hound? They use site first. Doesn't mean they don't smell.  Or the other end, a blood hound? 
A border collie uses its sight more than smell.  But will turn to smell to help find it's stock. They have site hound in their background. I own 4 border Collie's at the moment. Only 1 is really a nose dog. I have thought of working SAR with her. But my other BC's would walk right over a ball in long grass looking for it.  

Did my dog recognize me? Of course but she is young and a creature of habit. It confused her that we weren't following our general routine.  
The instincts of these dogs are so up front in the working lines.  But we all know how quickly we can muddle up the waters by breeding for things other than work.


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 4, 2013)

double post...sorry


----------



## Grazer (Oct 5, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> Yes MDres I agree. I never meant to say that an lgd doesn't smell as good as a different breed but that they use their eye sight just as much or even more then their sence of smell.
> Have you ever heard of a site hound? A lurcher or an afgan hound? They use site first. Doesn't mean they don't smell.  Or the other end, a blood hound?
> A border collie uses its sight more than smell.  But will turn to smell to help find it's stock. They have site hound in their background. I own 4 border Collie's at the moment. Only 1 is really a nose dog. I have thought of working SAR with her. But my other BC's would walk right over a ball in long grass looking for it.
> 
> ...


What do you mean have I ever heard of sight-hounds? I already mentioned them in post #16.
Maybe you should go back and read all my posts first before you respond.
It has always been one of my pet peeves: people arguing with me on forums without even throughly reading my posts.

Scent is the most important sense for a dog and you and the rest of the posters can sit and argue with me until the cows come home, but that won't change this scientific fact.
Yes this is a scientific fact that has been proven so many times before.
Just because a breed has good eye sight it doesn't means they don't use their sense of smell as much as other dog breeds.
Nor does it means they relay on their sight more than on their sense of smell. 
Dogs eye sight isn't that great when you compare them to predators *that do relay* on their sight like cats or birds of prey.

You all talk as if when a dog has a good eye sight he/she will turn off his/hers sense of smell and decide to relay on their eye sight only.
It doesn't work that way; dog's world revolves around scents and they will always try to use all their senses, especially the sense of smell.
But rather than to believe in what science says about canines, it's much easier to make up some random B.S. to try and excuse a very unusual and in my opinion not a normal behavior: your own dog charging at you because you smell or look a little differently.
Maybe, just maybe there is a more logical explanation: you don't have a good bond with your dog. Or maybe you have a dog with weak nerves or maybe it is a combination of both.


Oh and 1 more thing, now you and MDres claim you never meant to say LGD's don't smell as good as other type of dogs.
Really now? Then why would you say about any dog that on average has anywhere from 125 million to 300 million scent glands would relay on a much poorer sense (i.e. sight)? Unless his nose wasn't working properly? lol
Animals always relay on their strongest senses. 
The lack of logic in this tread just baffles me.


*I am so done with this topic. I do not want to continue to post on this thread anymore. As it is useless.
So don't quote me, don't refer to me (and this goes for all other posters on this topic who disagreed with me on this silly issue) and don't continue to argue with me, it will just further piss me off.

I want moderators to note that I asked posters not to continue to argue with me. 

*


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 5, 2013)

I will not discuss this with you further Grazer. Only to mention that I must have missed your *edit *to post #16 on my original reading of it.

I did not think we were arguing, I thought we were discussing differences of opinions.

Sorry for your hard feelings or _pissing_ you off. 
Enough said.


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 5, 2013)

*Grazer I hope you aren't reading because I'm going to continue to discuss this with others.*



> I've wore dresses before, but this was a very bright and long flowy one. The wind was blowing it everywhere.


And my own story of coming in a different door, or Jess charging her border collie sisters from afar until she recognized them (who can truly say whether it was site or smell) at which time she stopped charging.

All this tells me that the situation was different. Not so much that it was about the familiar part but that the dog was confused by the strange part of the equation, which trigged their reaction. The dogs we are discussing are young so there are lots of strange things that they will accustom themselves with over time.

If I walk in the door of my house (I have 3 trained to high levels of competition working border collies that I share my life with) 2 of them will bark, one meanly or protectively till she "sees" that it's me.  I'm sure she smells me, but she smells me all over the house. At the time she is reacting, she is reacting to _someone_ walking in her door, she is not reacting to her owner. It's the walking in the door part she is reacting to. There are windows that are open and she is right there smelling and seeing us, but she is still unsure till we come in the door and greet her. 

These are my personal opinions and ramblings, I am not trying to prove or site facts. I have been a serious dog owner for over 20 years. With at least 5 Lgd's being in that mix. I don't consider myself to be a novice but am always amazed and continue to learn from my dogs on a daily basis!

I would bet if the long flowy dress was worn again the dog would not react as much.


----------



## MDres (Oct 5, 2013)

I agree bcnewe2, I have also had situations where my Anatolian and one of my Border Collies treated me as an intruder or unfamiliar person because of strange clothing I was wearing. I can assure you at least one situation was based 100% on sight, because it took place with me INSIDE THE HOUSE behind the sliding glass door, while the dog was outside. However, I was never in fear that the LGD or BC would carry out a full attack, they simply approached me in a manner that I would expect them to approach something unfamiliar. As soon as they ascertained who I was, their aggressive behavior stopped. Was it my voice or my scent? Who knows... 

I personally am elated that my LGD and BC approach "strangers" in an aggressive manner. It has literally saved us from home invasions/break-ins on several occasions. Unfortunately, I have a LGD not only for "wild" predator protection, but also for human "predator" protection. 

I, too, was not trying to be argumentative in my posts. I am going to *assume* that someone missed my statements that scent isn't always available if the LGD is upwind. The definition of "upwind" is a situation where the wind is blowing the scent AWAY from the LGD. Since wind is pretty commonly present in an outdoor environment, it seems quite possible that LGD's have learned to incorporate the use of sight and sound as means of predator detection, based on the fact that the wind could easily blow the scent of the predator away.


----------



## Grazer (Oct 7, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> I will not discuss this with you further Grazer. Only to mention that I must have missed your *edit *to post #16 on my original reading of it.
> 
> I did not think we were arguing, I thought we were discussing differences of opinions.
> 
> ...


You say you won't discuss this further with me and then you say I must have edited #16 after you read it.

Well that is interesting. 
If you go back and look at my post #16, you will clearly see that it says "*Last edited by Grazer (10/03/2013 10:26 pm)*"
You then asked me if I ever heard of sighthounds when you posted at "*10/04/2013 8:54 pm*".
Clearly you posted almost 24 hours after I edited post #16 and you had plenty of time to re-read my post. 
So don't try to make it appear like it's somehow my fault you missed what I wrote in there.

Btw, it seems people missed when I said I do have human-aggressive dogs. Our Caucasian shepherd male is probably more protective than any dog most if not all BYH members have ever seen.  

Anyway, I will ask say nicely again that I do not want to continue this discussion. 
Because you guys are not interested in facts and I am not interested in ignoring scientific facts and my own experiences over someone else's anecdotal observations. 

To whoever stumbles upon this topic and wants to know more about how dogs smell, I'll mention some more facts:

"_Dogs can detect scents we don't even know exist, and they can identify the faintest of smells, even when they're heavily masked by other scents -- such as the odor of trace amounts of heroin that have been hidden in pungent aniseed. A dog's sense of smell is often more powerful than the best scientific instruments, which is why dogs have been used to detect not only drugs but also gas leaks and explosives, and to find people lost in the wilderness or buried in avalanches.

Dogs can smell things humans can't because they have more nasal membrane than we do. We have about 65 square inches of nasal membrane, while dogs have about 900 square inches -- an area that's greater than that of a dog's whole body, says Bruce Fogle, D.V.M., Ph.D., a veterinarian and author of The Dog's Mind. The nasal membrane is packed with olfactory receptors, specialized cells responsible for detecting scents.

Dogs have an additional advantage. Their noses are always wet, as anyone knows who has woken up to the sensation of a cold, wet nose. It's believed that this sheen of moisture acts almost like Velcro, trapping scent molecules as they waft by. Along with the sticky mucus in the nasal passages, this allows dogs to collect and store large numbers of passing molecules.

Scents don't just drift conveniently into their noses. A dog's nostrils act like little antennas. Dogs wiggle them to collect scents and figure out where they're coming from._"


----------



## MDres (Oct 7, 2013)

Okay, I am jumping in. Here's what it boils down to Grazer.

Your posts, which are mildly insulting to the rest of us, seem to read/state that the sense of smell is the ONLY SENSE A LGD USES. They don't use sight, they don't use sound, only smell.

Here's the deal...

NOBODY HAS SAID THEY CANNOT SMELL! 

The rest of us are sharing experiences and observations (not gonna bother looking for "scientific proof" ) of how our LGD's have worked. Some of us are new to owning LGD's, some of us have owned them for decades. OUR OBSERVATIONS HAVE MERIT. Not everything has to be, or can be proven in a lab setting.

I stand by my statements that I have seen my LGD and BC react based on sight alone. Scent IS NOT always available, especially in an outdoor setting. I don't know if you can find any "scientific laboratory tests" to back that up, and frankly, at this point, I do not care.

How do I know scent isn't always available? Because I grew up a hunter, and while I don't hunt with a gun now, I hunt with a camera, but the premise is the same. You are only successful IF YOU CANNOT BE SMELLED. You work the wind so that your human scent blows away from what you are "shooting" at. If they smell you, they are gone.


----------



## bcnewe2 (Oct 7, 2013)

> Anyway, I will ask say nicely again that I do not want to continue this discussion.
> Because you guys are not interested in facts and I am not interested in ignoring scientific facts and my own experiences over someone else's anecdotal observations.


Then why are you still discussing anything about it? And as MDres mentions it is coming off as insulting and argumentive.   I don't appreciate being called out or argued with in the manner you have, it sure doesn't feel nice anymore.  You have disregarded anything I or others have written about our own experiences with your opinions, experiences and your scientific evidence links. I can only say we must of had different experiences and that I am not arguing with your evidence. Only adding my own experiences.  

No I did not read or did not remember your edit. So kill me if I didn't reread or didn't fully read your #16 post. This is supposed to be a friendly  discussion board about backyardherds, our stories and experiences.    What makes yours experiences and mine anecdotal observations?  Geesh....

Why in the world are you so cross?  Pissed off or not, you sound like you have a huge problem with anyone that doesn't agree or offers a difference of opinion.  If it was my post about sight hounds, my apologies. I didn't mean to strike a nerve.  

This not discussing it anymore then posting a whole page more doesn't make any since. Seems like you need the last word...so go for it. Post something else.
You win.


MDres we can start a new thread if you'd like to discuss more this one is obviously DEAD.


----------



## KinderKorner (Oct 7, 2013)

Oh dear.

I didn't want this to turn into a debate about dog's smell. I was just posting an interesting thing my puppy did.


----------



## Southern by choice (Oct 7, 2013)

Very sad indeed.


----------



## Grazer (Oct 13, 2013)

@Mdres & bcnewe2, 

I replayed on the 7th and I am replaying again because you two keep accusing me of something I did not do. 
And it bothers me.
You talk about me being mildly insulting to you, well your posts come across as very insulting to me.

I never ever said that the sense of smell is the ONLY SENSE A LGD USES. Ever
Go back and read all my posts in this thread again. To suggest something like that is truly insulting.
Because only an idiot would think dogs only use 1 sense.
All I said was that the sense of smell is the most important sense to a dog. That is all I said and look what it turned into.

All this because I didn't like you or anyone else advising others on this topic that when their dog charges them that it is somehow normal because their dog doesn't know who they are. It is wrong and I feel dangerous on so many levels. 
Especially because there is no scientific study out there that claims LGD's relay on their eyes the most, while at the same time there are countless of studies that have proven sense of smell is dog's most important sense.
Claiming something is a trait of a dog breed or for a group of dogs, can be dangerous.

Not to compare it with the advices on this topic, but I do have 2 somewhat extreme examples.
I know of people who believe it or not say we shouldn't be surprised if LGD's are not good with kids because they are independent and dominant dogs.
And then on another forum that I rarely visit, there are a lot of posters who when someone mentioned their large dog killed someone else's smaller dog, they said it was just dogs being dogs. They claimed large dogs see smaller dogs as bunnies and squirrels lol
Those are of course two extreme examples, but I hope this explains why I am so opposed to blaming an undesired behavior on the breed/breed group, saying it is a breed trait.
When 9 times out of 10 it is something we humans did wrong.

I think each situation needs to be looked at on an individual level and people need to keep in mind that a lot of time problems with dogs arise when the owners do not raise their dogs correctly, do not spend enough time with their dogs, don't make sure their dogs are always securely confined behind fences or on a leash, etc, etc...
This is why I often mention that it's important we are honest with ourselves and ask ourselves just how good our relationship is with our dogs.
And then there are times when there is nothing or not much owners can do because they simply have an unstable dog/dog with weak nerves.

bcnewe2, discussions on the internet are only useful if people actually take time to throughly read what the other posters write and all posters remain respectful.
I have felt nothing but animosity  and being belittled by you and MDres.
Now granted, I will be the first one to admit that I am not a very patient person. So I do get agitated if I have to go back and forth for too long. 
But I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, as you so rudely suggested. 
What I do have a problem with is people acting like their opinions are facts. Especially if I feel these opinions and advises can be potentially dangerous.


Then you accuse me of needing the last word, but yet you continue to call me out and accuse me of things I never said.
By doing that you continue to help make this thread turn ugly.
I don't need the last word, I just don't like arguing and I was honestly hoping that if I would to say I'm done with this topic people would stop calling me out.
Obviously that did not work and I do hope we can stop arguing now.

What's said is said, obviously we do not see eye to eye on this topic.
But can we just stop arguing? And let bygones be bygones?


----------



## kstaven (Oct 14, 2013)

Enough is enough folks. No warnings this time besides this one. BYH is not the place for this at all. Thank you to the responsible long term member who reported this.

Thank you

Kurtis


----------

