# Baby Bunnies born today! Colors?



## HaloRabbits (Mar 21, 2017)

Is anyone good at identifying colors on Newborn kits? I see the pics where people are like "chestnut, lilac, chocolate, tort" and I am just like  how do you know? 

ANYWAYS, I have some new kits as of today and am itching to know what colors they are, as I paired two very different rabbits this time a *broken red* buck and a *black *(self chin [more than likely]) doe. I expected to have some chestnuts, maybe more black [self chins], possibly a chin. 

Can you tell anything so far?


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 21, 2017)

Looks like broken black and black, but I'm usually just as confused by kit colors as you are.


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## promiseacres (Mar 21, 2017)

Chins and chestnuts will have lighter ears and bellies, while black would be solid in those areas. 
The 2 brokens on the farthest right look like that. Hard to tell but some do appear more blue than black.... so maybe. Do you know if your red carries "c" ?


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 22, 2017)

@promiseacres 
I know one of the does grandsires was red and the granddoe was blue. I completely forgot about the possibility of getting a blue. I don't know if the red carries "c"


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## promiseacres (Mar 22, 2017)

At 7 to 10 days you'll have a better idea


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 22, 2017)

Yes, I'll post a pic around then!


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 22, 2017)

wow what a group, congrats on the litter!


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 22, 2017)

@Hens and Roos Thank you, it was her second litter. 11 babies both times. First time only 5 survived, hoping she's picked up the knowledge to be more successful this time!


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 25, 2017)

Four Days old now!


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 26, 2017)

Awww!!! Definitely some broken black and solid black.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 26, 2017)

I wish I had a red, or chestnut so that I could get a red later on. Maybe next time!


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 27, 2017)

You will, eventually. Most likely, the kits you have have a recessive red or chestnut gene.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 27, 2017)

I only have room to keep one more doe, so I am trying to decided whether or not to keep one of these or wait until we breed this pair again.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 27, 2017)

This could get interesting  . . . .

When red (which is an agouti color) x black (a self color) = black, you gotta start thinking about steel.


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 27, 2017)

Steel is awesome. You can get some, well, unexpected colors from steels, depending on what the rabbit's parents, grandparents, etc., are. But, as long as you don't end up with a DQ color/pattern or a color/pattern you don't want, it isn't all bad.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 27, 2017)

I would be happy with any Agouti colored rabbit, eventually I would get a red haha.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 27, 2017)

@DutchBunny03 I have a lot of room to play, while they are all pedigreed, I only raise for meat and the occasional pet.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 27, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> I would be happy with any Agouti colored rabbit, eventually I would get a red haha.


Eh, maybe.
Y'see, in New Zealands, Red is A_B_C_D_eeww++++. Not only do you need the recessive non-extension (e), you need wide-band (w) and the rufous modifiers (+) to get that good, rich red. When you cross away from that, with each generation you have a better chance of losing one of those recessives and some of the modifiers. What you may get is an agouti with non-extension, which without the wide-band and the rufous is an orange. Since you may be dealing with the chinchilla gene (cchd), and we are talking New Zealands here, you could even get this:





which is A_B_cchdcD_ee. an ermine. In fact, if you get the wide band (ww) too, it could even be completely white.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 28, 2017)

@Bunnylady I've heard of ermine but hadn't read much on them. Ahh! Well that's annoying. While the possible chinchilla gene has given me some cute little fur balls, I would still like to keep at least 20-40% of my rabbits showable. 

I'll attach photos of my last litter, all self (chinchillas?).


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## MultipleAnimals (Mar 28, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> Is anyone good at identifying colors on Newborn kits? I see the pics where people are like "chestnut, lilac, chocolate, tort" and I am just like  how do you know?
> 
> ANYWAYS, I have some new kits as of today and am itching to know what colors they are, as I paired two very different rabbits this time a *broken red* buck and a *black *(self chin [more than likely]) doe. I expected to have some chestnuts, maybe more black [self chins], possibly a chin.
> 
> ...





DutchBunny03 said:


> Looks like broken black and black, but I'm usually just as confused by kit colors as you are.





promiseacres said:


> Chins and chestnuts will have lighter ears and bellies, while black would be solid in those areas.
> The 2 brokens on the farthest right look like that. Hard to tell but some do appear more blue than black.... so maybe. Do you know if your red carries "c" ?





HaloRabbits said:


> @promiseacres
> I know one of the does grandsires was red and the granddoe was blue. I completely forgot about the possibility of getting a blue. I don't know if the red carries "c"





HaloRabbits said:


> View attachment 29962
> 
> Four Days old now!





I see Broken Black, Maybe a False Charlie, Blacks and maybe a Blue. What Breed(s) Are They? What colors are in the fathers background, his Mother, Father, Grandsires, GrandDams, Great Grandsires and Great GrandDams? And What are all the colors in the Mothers Background, Her Mother, Father,  Grandsires, GrandDams, Great Grandsires and Great GrandDams?


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 29, 2017)

@MultipleAnimals They are New Zealands. 
Bucks background- all reds  with one GG Dam being a REW and one GG Dam being a Steel black. 
Does background- all blacks and blues with one GG Dam being red and one GG Sire being REW.


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## Bunnylady (Mar 29, 2017)

Steel (Es) is a weird gene. If you combine Steel with the normal extension gene (E) on an agouti patterned animal, you get the classic gold or silver tipped Steel (which often looks sort of like a very dark version of Chestnut or Chinchilla).







(Steel Grey Flemish Giant, which is genetically a steeled Chinchilla)





(Light Grey Flemish Giant - which is genetically Chinchilla)

Combined with any other allele in the E series, Steel may look exactly like a self - solid black, blue, chocolate; whatever else the other color genes code for. Sometimes those oddball Steels may have just the tiniest little bit of gold or silver ticking to indicate that they aren't really selfs, and that may not show up until the baby coat sheds out. This is different from silvering; Silver puts completely white hairs on the animal, and this is light ticking on darker colored hairs.

Since the buck is a (broken) red,  some of his offspring (maybe even all of them, since he comes from a line of reds)  should have gotten the agouti gene. Since none of the offspring appear to be agouti patterned, that makes me suspect that the doe is a Steel - maybe even a "Super Steel" (EsEs). Steel is pretty common in New Zealands, maybe even more than self (a) is.

The doe's gray eyes make me believe she is genetically a Chinchilla, whatever else she may be. It  will be interesting to see what color the babies' eyes are, when they open. Gray eyes on a black or broken black are a DQ; the slightly less intense color on a self Chin would also be remarked on. It would be a bit more subtle on a Blue, but the color difference might be enough to get a Blue self Chin marked down for "poor color" on a show table.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 29, 2017)

I had never looked into the Steel gene.. I didn't know it was common in NZ's. 

I would love to know their genotypes, and I know my best chance at doing this for now is test breedings. 

Before taking in the information from the steel gene possibly playing a role this is what I had:

I think the buck is *Genotype: *A__ B_ C_ D_ ee Enen ww 
and I thought the doe was *Genotype: *aa B_ C_ Dd E_ enen W_  *OR *aa B_ cchd_ Dd E_ enen W_ 

The kits I kept from her first litter I am assuming are the same as her (some with Enen though). 

The kits from this litter will be *Genotype: *a_ B_ C_ __ e_ enen w_ *OR *a_ B_ cchd_ __ e_ enen w_    (with some being Enen).


_


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## Bunnylady (Mar 29, 2017)

If the doe is a steel, the kits could even be AAB_cchd_DdEseenenWw, and they'd be solid black, just like a self (aa).


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## MultipleAnimals (Mar 30, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> @MultipleAnimals They are New Zealands.
> Bucks background- all reds  with one GG Dam being a REW and one GG Dam being a Steel black.
> Does background- all blacks and blues with one GG Dam being red and one GG Sire being REW.



There is a Possibility of Getting Steels, Reds, Blues, Blacks, REW, White(different eye color) and Of Course Brokens and Charlies(could be False Charlies, Breed a "Supposed" Charlie to a Solid that is Solid For 3 or more Generations, If its a Real Charlie, youll get Brokens. If its a False Charlie, You should get Solids)


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 30, 2017)

MultipleAnimals said:


> There is a Possibility of Getting Steels, Reds, Blues, Blacks, REW, White(different eye color) and Of Course Brokens and Charlies(could be False Charlies, Breed a "Supposed" Charlie to a Solid that is Solid For 3 or more Generations, If its a Real Charlie, youll get Brokens. If its a False Charlie, You should get Solids)



I have a couple false charlies, it is genetically impossible for me to have a charlie because only one parent is a broken and the other is a solid. 

Previously I did want a charlie, but after reading more on them I am going to steer away from broken X broken breedings. My broken red buck we used this time threw some beautifully marked kits (he comes from a long line of brokens so I imagine he got some great modifiers). I am more than happy to use him whenever I want marked kits.


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## MultipleAnimals (Apr 1, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> I have a couple false charlies, it is genetically impossible for me to have a charlie because only one parent is a broken and the other is a solid.
> 
> Previously I did want a charlie, but after reading more on them I am going to steer away from broken X broken breedings. My broken red buck we used this time threw some beautifully marked kits (he comes from a long line of brokens so I imagine he got some great modifiers). I am more than happy to use him whenever I want marked kits.



Charlies are Great For a Broken Program. Just Breed To Solids Only, Those would be nice Brokens. I dont Recommend Breeding Charlie to Charlie, Thats Where Many Problems Come From. First Gen. Charlies and Second Gen. Charlies Are Best For A Broken Program.


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## Bunnylady (Apr 1, 2017)

MultipleAnimals said:


> I dont Recommend Breeding Charlie to Charlie, Thats Where Many Problems Come From. First Gen. Charlies and Second Gen. Charlies Are Best For A Broken Program.



 I suspect you still don't understand the problem of Charlies. A first generation Charlie has the same problem as a 16th generation Charlie; it has two copies of the Broken gene. The Broken gene interferes with the ability of the animal to grow nerves at the very earliest stages of its development. 

An animal's digestive system is lined with muscles that contract in a rhythmic, wavelike motion that pushes the food through it at a certain rate. There are nerves that carry signals to those muscles telling them when to contract. A normal, non-spotted rabbit has a certain number of nerves doing that job; for the sake of simplicity, let's say that number is 100. A rabbit that has one copy of the broken gene has fewer nerves than a non-spotted one; maybe 70 or 80. This digestive system isn't working as well as a normal one, but it's still working well enough that you probably will never notice a difference. 

The Charlie, with two copies of Broken interfering with its ability to make nerves has a lot fewer - maybe 20 or 30, instead of the normal 100. That's_ all_ Charlies, whether or not they have any Charlie relatives.  This digestive system is going to run slow - like, dial-up internet slow. In addition, a lot of Charlies have a condition known as Megacolon (some sources seem to indicate that_ ALL_ Charlies have Megacolon, the only difference is how bad it is in that particular rabbit).  Megacolon means that the last parts of the digestive tract are dilated, like a blown up balloon. The rabbit with Megacolon has problems with absorbing nutrients from its food, and is prone to having episodes when the digestive system stops moving entirely (GI stasis). Some bunnies with Megacolon don't survive long enough to make it out of the nest box. Some are clearly stunted, not growing a fast as their Enen or enen siblings. Some may seem to be functioning at a nearly normal level as youngsters, but Megacolon can be progressive, so it may get worse as the rabbit gets older. 

Virtually any rabbit can have a stasis episode, if it experiences the right sort of stress, but Charlies are much more prone to them. Many years ago, I had a Charlie Mini Lop doe that had an episode every time she kindled. She'd make a nest, pull fur, put her babies in the box and clean them up, just like she was supposed to, then sit hunched up in one corner of the cage for a day, grinding her teeth in pain. I was new to rabbits, and didn't know what was going on; I bred her 3 times before I made the connection, then I never bred her again. I reckon we were both lucky it didn't kill her.     

I'm not going to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do, but I don't like seeing a rabbit hurting like that, and I don't want to be making rabbits that are likely to get into that state simply because of their genetics. So, I don't breed Charlies, and I don't do crosses that could result in Charlies. I like the Broken pattern too much to avoid it altogether, but I will gladly risk booted and other poorly marked Brokens, rather than create Charlies.


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## MultipleAnimals (Apr 8, 2017)

Bunnylady said:


> I suspect you still don't understand the problem of Charlies. A first generation Charlie has the same problem as a 16th generation Charlie; it has two copies of the Broken gene. The Broken gene interferes with the ability of the animal to grow nerves at the very earliest stages of its development.
> 
> An animal's digestive system is lined with muscles that contract in a rhythmic, wavelike motion that pushes the food through it at a certain rate. There are nerves that carry signals to those muscles telling them when to contract. A normal, non-spotted rabbit has a certain number of nerves doing that job; for the sake of simplicity, let's say that number is 100. A rabbit that has one copy of the broken gene has fewer nerves than a non-spotted one; maybe 70 or 80. This digestive system isn't working as well as a normal one, but it's still working well enough that you probably will never notice a difference.
> 
> ...




I realize That. But Charlie's are great for a BROKEN program, by breeding to solids only. Any Brokens from that Breeding should be Bred back to Solids to LESSEN the risk of Megacolon, it won't go away entirely, I know that.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 9, 2017)

Bunnylady said:


> If the doe is a steel, the kits could even be AAB_cchd_DdEseenenWw, and they'd be solid black, just like a self (aa).



At 2.5 weeks old I was able to get a closer look at the babies colors. Most appear black like the mommy except one who looks like she may be a gold tipped steel so maybe she is A_ Es_ or aa EsE ?

Is this color gold tipped steel? It is kind of hard to get in the pictures, but you can see on the top of her head, some on her shoulders and by her nose.


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## Bunnylady (Apr 9, 2017)

Steel only appears on agouti-patterned rabbits; steels that have self (aaEs_) would always look like selfs. Steel acts by allowing the black to extend further from the tip of the hair onto the lighter middle band on an agouti-patterned rabbit's body hairs; since a self has no lighter band, you couldn't tell the difference. The typical gold- or silver-tipped steel is EsE; with their red sire, these babies would be Ese. They may technically be steels, but they will probably be darker; looking more like a black with ticking rather than a very dark agouti. But, since no obvious steel is showable in the NZ, it really only matters from a breeding standpoint.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 9, 2017)

Ah man I forgot to factor that in, haha Idk what's going on. Genotyping is hard work.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 9, 2017)

I think *A_Ese* – Agouti with 1 steel and 1 non-extension gene could still appear "self" so maybe that is what she is.


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