# 2 day old orphaned boar goat. weak, wobbly, constipated, weak crying



## heatherlynnky (Jun 17, 2012)

I thought we were doing well last night but a few hours later and things are not well. Or I could just be freaking out. Ok so here is what I have. Mom had difficult birth and would not make it. Breeder assumed the baby got colostrum. Decided this baby was the runt of the three so after the other 2 sold she stopped feeding this one. 5 hours later i show up. baby is still alive but cannot stand and makes almost no noise at all. I say she is hungry when she keeps sucking on my arm so lady offers her the last of a bottle. she eats like she is starved. Probably so. Mom was still alive at that point but was in such bad shape that she could not lift her head and there is no way this one got anything from her at that point.

Ok so was told feed her small amount every 2 to 3 hours. Which is what I do. 1st meal is maybe an ounce. 2nd meal about the same. 3rd meal was 1/4 cup colostrum and 4th meal was 1/2 cup colostrum. I am going based on whats on bags and such on how much to let her have. I was told she was going fine but found her to be constipated. Straining and never able to go. Her tummy was getting a bit firmer so I looked up what to do. Soapy enema just to help her along. She pooped alot and seemed better. More stable. she slept for 3.5 hours more and then I check on her. Tummy is not hard, its a little firmer but not much really. She cries when her tummy is touched though and is still straining to poo. The poo is watery yellow chunks with yellow liquid( because of the enema I would think). She doesn't walk much at all. As of this morning has no appetite but she did have 1/2 cup colostrum at 1am so I am not going to push the issue for a while longer. Many of the places said every 6 hours feed and its not been that long. The goat breeder neighbor of a family friend gave me some advice but things were looking good then. Now she just seems weak again. No loud mom cries. Just little pathetic cries. And it sounds like she has a little breathing issue too. Almost like she keeps clearing her throat. A half cough. I got a small amount of gatoraid down her ( suggested by the breeder) and bit of kid paste. I'm not sure which way to turn next. I hate to interrupt someone on fathers day but I might be calling the goat guy back. He offered to let us come up there and he would check her over a bit. tube feed her if she needed it or even try her on one of his new moms. I am also contemplating vet emergency visit. Right now she is quiet and breathing easy. Laying down in a rubbermaid with a fuzzy towel for her bed and a baby blanket to keep her warm.

What am I dealing with here? What should I do? I'm sorta afraid that i am going to lose her from sheer ignorance. If this were a chicken or duck or goose or even dog or cat I would be fine. but I know just enough to be dangerous I fear. I spent probably 8 hours reading up on goats in the last 24. Help


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## Roll farms (Jun 17, 2012)

I only ever feed kids, even newborns, even weak ones...3x a day.

Feeding too often causes bloat, constipation, and worse, floppy kid syndrome.

If she were here, I'd give her 2cc of B vitamin (injection).  1/2 cc of selenium (injection).  B vit comes from any farm supply, selenium injection (BoSe) from a vet.
Mix 1/2 tsp of baking soda with 1-2cc b vitamin and make a ball...stick that deep in her throat and see if she'll swallow it.  
If not, mix it w/ just enough water to make it liquid and squirt it down her throat.  The baking soda will help w/ the bloaty feeling.  It's hard to OD a goat w/ B vitamin since it's water soluble.

Wait at least 6 (8 is better) hrs between feedings and feed her as much as she'll take.  Put 1/2 tsp of baking soda in ea. bottle for a couple days.  Give her a 'pinkie tip' of Probiotic paste (kid paste) 2x a day.  Keep up the enemas until she's pooping on her own w/in 15-20 minutes of taking a bottle.

If she's unable to stand, pneumonia can be a problem.  Keep her propped up on her sternum (between two rolled towels or something) so that she's not flat out on her side.

For this situation, I'd probably be giving 1/2 cc Pen G IM 2x a day for 7 days.

On a side note.....This 'breeder'....is not my fav. person after reading your story.

Good luck w/ her!


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 17, 2012)

Well I did baking soda from a post I found on here right after I posted, she then pooped a bit more and fell asleep. I just now fed her and I limited it to 1/4 cup colostrum. She did walk a bit again finally. Its like a roller coaster. I am very thankful for the goat breeder neighbor of our friend. He offered to let me bring the baby up to him and help us. He also has all the meds and shots on hand and is willing to give them if they are needed. 

The breeder we got her from I was a bit upset with. Letting the  mom die without helping her, stopping liquids on the runt. It was just upsetting all around. She does sound a bit congested. I am going to be very inconsiderate and call the friendly breeder and see if we could come up today. He said we could but I want to make sure. Maybe even being put on one of his moms as a surrogate might save her. I'm in over my head.

Anyway this morning she does seem better. After the baking soda I can touch her without her crying. When she cried for food it was nice a strong again. She did stand and butt my chin a bit for some bottle.  BUT her poo is still runny like almost all liquid which is not good and she does sound a bit congested. I think if the friendly breeder cannot help me then I am calling the vet.  Regardless she is so at the vets in the morning.


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## babsbag (Jun 17, 2012)

I agree with the opinion about the "breeder". What a cruel thing to do to any animal.

Are you using colostrum replacement? If so, better than nothing, but not on my favorites list. If there is any chance that your breeder family friend has does that still have colostrum, or has some stored in the freezer, I would certainly take that in place of the replacement colostrum.

Your friend seems to know about goats if he tells you you can come on Father's Day. He understands that somethings just can't wait, and baby goats are one of them.

Good luck. And the advice you got from Roll Farms is spot on.


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## autumnprairie (Jun 17, 2012)

Update?
I am working with a 3 week preemie that is 5 days old so I understand what ya are going through


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 17, 2012)

She is actually doing pretty well I think. She does still have the runs but not severe. She is on colostrum replacement but we are taking her to see our new breeder friend tomorrow. He has some frozen from his moms that he keeps on hand and I am getting some goats milk from them too. Not sure yet but he says he has something on hand that may help with her tummy issues too. Apparently really good but has to be ordered and he always has that too.

Anywho she is eating 2oz to almost 4 oz roughly every 4 or 5 hours. So only about 8oz today. Its not all colostrum though. Its half colostrum and half gatoraid. He has more years experience than I have years alive so.....The man swears by it so I am taking his lead. She seems to want to sleep at night and not be disturbed so she just ate and is now in her bed right beside me. I tuck her in with a baby blanket and she snuggles right in and goes to sleep. I play music at night so she doesn't spend the night crying. She gets very lonely and always someone is near her. If we cannot hold her we can at least talk to her. She has become VERY demanding about being fed too and I don't have to fight with her about the bottle at all now. She reaches out for it and starts crying when she sees me making it.

 I probably spent another 4 or so hours today studying goats. Crash course. I have been digging through past posts on the forums and have found a good bit of useful information.


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## Remuda1 (Jun 17, 2012)

Sounds good, fingers crossed for continued improvement!


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## babsbag (Jun 18, 2012)

If she is your only goat you need to start looking for another. They really need to have a herdmate, goats just don't do well alone. Now is a good time to find another kid for her to grow up with. 

Glad she is doing better, hope she continues to improve for you. 

I don't know that I would feed her so often. The newborns sleep quite a bit and really don't nurse as frequently as you might think.

Good that you are getting some colostrum, and some help.


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 18, 2012)

Roller coaster I swear. I slept for a grand total of 2.5 hours only to wake up to a crying baby with a fever and severe runs. Went ahead with a bottle of just electrolytes just in case. Not sure if I should offer colostrum once I get this temp down. I gave it 1/4 a baby asprin and 1.5 oz electrolyte. My husband is out on the road right now getting pepto bismol.  I wish I knew more. It seems like every step of the way with this baby is a fight. I think we are leaving to see the man first thing in the morning. Taking the girlie and all her needs with us.  Maybe he can turn the tide again for me? I hope

Ok so am I doing something wrong? Probably still over feeding some. When it starts screaming I need to stand firm on the schedule.  For right now I gave 1/4 asprin, we are now up to 3 oz in electrolytes. Temp is back down to 102.8. It was 103.7. I am still looking for doses on the stuff for the runs. Probably hitting the vets pretty quick in the morning.


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## Roll farms (Jun 18, 2012)

It's probably e coli or salmonella....they get protection from those things from Mom's colostrum, which she didn't get or get enough of.

I use specto-guard (aka scour check) or neomycin sulfate from farm stores.  
2 pumps (2cc) on an empty stomach, 2x a day the 1st day, then you can put it in her bottles 2x a day for another 4 days.

When a kid is scouring severely, there's a gelling electrolyte (revitalyte gelling) you can give them instead of milk that will give them vitamins / electrolytes and slow down the runs.  

I never 'stop' the runs w/ pepto, you have to treat the cause of the runs.  Plugging her up w/ pepto w/ out killing the bacteria / cause can be a bad thing.  Scouring is the body's way of getting rid of the toxin.  Plugging her up alone just holds it in.

Colostrum after they are 48 hrs old is pointless, baby animals lose the ability to absorb the antibodies after the 1st 24 - 36 hrs.  

And I've been bottle raising 40-60 kids a year for a long time, for what it's worth, I sorta know my stuff, too.    I feed them 3x a day.  Period.


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 18, 2012)

I ended up skipping the pepto and just focusing on the electrolytes and probiotic paste last night. We are leaving in a couple to get her checked. She is not much interested in anything to drink to this morning. I'm so tired at this point though I need someone other than me deciding the next step. I can't think. 4 hours sleep in last two nights as I stayed up with this sick girl. My decision skills are nil.


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## Remuda1 (Jun 18, 2012)

I think it will be a big relief to you to get her to the vet. They can give you a good plan of attack to get on top of this thing. You're right, lack of sleep is so debilitating. Take a deep breath, things will be better soon. Best of luck at the vet and keep us posted!


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 18, 2012)

Ended up going to vet and breeder today. My vet gave her fluids, scours meds and antibiotics. She wasn't dehydrated yet and no shock but her temp was low and she sounded a bit congested. He suggested heading straight to breeder to get some extra help and for a lesson in tube feeding. My parents drove me to the breeder because I was too tired to drive. He and his wife were great. He tube fed her colostrum from his moms, electrolytes and some liquid vitamin stuff for goats and sheep. she was so weak. We hung around for about an hour and already her head was up and she was standing again. She is calling to me but he told me to be much stricter with my feedings. Set a schedule and stick to it so thats what I am trying to do. Praying now that she is stronger she will go back to her bottle but if not I am prepared to tube feed her. Already I can see an improvement in the scours. So another night of worrying and praying but hopefully my girl is much better tomorrow.

I have considered already getting her a buddy but I need to be a bit more sure of survival at this point. Its still very touch and go. To make up for being alone I hold her alot.  She sleeps on my lap while I read and such. I keep her very close and try to provide as much comfort and closeness as I can.


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## autumnprairie (Jun 18, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> It's probably e coli or salmonella....they get protection from those things from Mom's colostrum, which she didn't get or get enough of.
> 
> I use specto-guard (aka scour check) or neomycin sulfate from farm stores.
> 2 pumps (2cc) on an empty stomach, 2x a day the 1st day, then you can put it in her bottles 2x a day for another 4 days.
> ...


Listen to Rolls she knows her stuff
here is her page on newborns   http://www.backyardherds.com/web/viewblog.php?id=586

I am following her guidelines on feeding and Miracle is thriving

I hope your baby gets better soon


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 18, 2012)

The sheep farmer down the road gave me a tube feeder. Apparently they are not for sale anywhere around here. He also gave me some more liquid electrolyte-vitamines-minerals-glucose. anywho he said 2 pumps is the side of the mouth once a day.

The vet said the goat colostrum today would be fine but he and the breeder said after that go straight electrolyte till the scours are over. This baby was closer to dead when we got her than I am comfortable with. Rough She whines in her sleep which is freaking me out because I think she is in pain. I was told to watch for teeth grinding? 

I will check out that page. Once the baby goes back on milk though its not going to be replacer. The breeder who has been helping is willing to sell me goats milk to feed her and potentially i have another breeder closer who is also willing to. Everyone agreed that either grocery store milk or the fresh goats milk would be best. No one seems to think much of the milk replacement stuff I swear. Even the vet said it was junk and get the real stuff if I can.

Ok so see if you guys agree with this. first week feed every 6 hours 2 to 3 oz each time. Week 2 I can cut back to 3 times daily and 4 oz daily. We all agreed since I can get goats milk thats what I will feed for the duration. I was told once the scours is gone I can dispense with all the electrolytes unless needed again. Same with all the supplements. 

It might be that I am really more sleep deprived than I think but I just keep tearing up that so many strangers are willing to jump in and help my baby. Family friends who know nothing call around to friends who do. Neighbors we asked where to buy something just volunteer to provide what we need and even bring the baby by if you need help.


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## autumnprairie (Jun 18, 2012)

heatherlynnky said:
			
		

> The sheep farmer down the road gave me a tube feeder. Apparently they are not for sale anywhere around here. He also gave me some more liquid electrolyte-vitamines-minerals-glucose. anywho he said 2 pumps is the side of the mouth once a day.
> 
> The vet said the goat colostrum today would be fine but he and the breeder said after that go straight electrolyte till the scours are over. This baby was closer to dead when we got her than I am comfortable with. Rough She whines in her sleep which is freaking me out because I think she is in pain. I was told to watch for teeth grinding?
> 
> I will check out that page. Once the baby goes back on milk though its not going to be replacer. The breeder who has been helping is willing to sell me goats milk to feed her and potentially i have another breeder closer who is also willing to. Everyone agreed that either grocery store milk or the fresh goats milk would be best. No one seems to think much of the milk replacement stuff I swear. Even the vet said it was junk and get the real stuff if I can.


real stuff or whole cows milk. I am glad that you saw the breeder and the vet. Good Luck and keep us posted


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## Roll farms (Jun 18, 2012)

Hope she comes through for you.  Good luck w/ her.

I agree, whole cow milk (Vita. D) or goat milk is best.


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 18, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Hope she comes through for you.  Good luck w/ her.
> 
> I agree, whole cow milk (Vita. D) or goat milk is best.


I'm sure she will. She is doing so well already. I didn't know that I had already looked at your page. I have it bookmarked for reference. Might print it out for my children too though. My oldest is wanting to learn so he is right beside me as we muddle through this. I am learning a ton and hopefully my mistakes will stay in the correctable stage. She is onery tonight and actually ate 4oz from the bottle. The scours seems to be almost past. Everything is thickening up a bit. I have enough goats milk to get me through a few days. I am putting the kid milk replacer on a shelf, don't need it.

1. Do not use a measuring cup from the dollar store. I measured tonight using a baby bottle and put it warmed into my coke bottle. Well i had marked my coke bottle in ounces by 2's based on 1/4 cup was 2 oz which another site had said. Well either that was wrong or my measuring cups were because when I thought I was feeding 2 oz it was actually 3.5. So Imagine what 4 was. I was probably overfeeding and caused the scours myself because of ignorance. Stupid mistake.
2. Ask for advice right off the bat. I should have just gone to another breeder right off the bat.

I am getting her a buddy too. Unless I am holding her or playing with her she cries constantly. I played with her for almost an hour and not a whine or groan came out of her. I put her back in her bed and she is crying and moaning  again.


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## babsbag (Jun 19, 2012)

Glad she is doing better; hope she continues to improve. It is great that she is getting milk and colostrum from another goat, so much better for them. You might want to ask the breeder friend if his goats are vaccinated with CDT. Most are, but not always. Since her only protection to those as a newborn come from the colostrum it would good to know if there is any protection actually in the colostrum. I have friends that don't vaccinate so you just never know.

IF his goats that gave you the colostrum were not current on their shots when they kidded you might want to think about giving your doeling a C&D antitoxin injection for short term protection. She can get the CD&T vaccine when she is a month old, but this will offer her protection that she would normally get from her mom. There is a difference between the C&D antitoxin and the CDT vaccine so don't confuse them. C&D is usually called enterotoxemia. I treated a kid this year and I am sure she would have died without this medication.

This is from another site. 
http://goat-link.com/content/view/159/168/

"Keep a bottle of CD ANTI toxin on hand at all times : 
New dosing information Directly from Colorado Serum:
No need to give this every 6 hours- the recommended dosing for goats is as follows:
kids under 6lbs give them 3ccs injected SQ every 12hours
kids 6-15lbs give them 5ccs injected SQ every 12 hours.
kids 15-20lbs: give them 10ccs injected SQ every 12 hours.
For adults- 80lb goat will get 20ccs injected SQ every 12 hours
CD Anti toxin is NOT the CDT toxoid vaccine and even if the baby has had the CDT vaccine this does not negate the need for the anti toxin. Use for baby goats who act hungry and refuse to eat even after an enema. This is also used for adult goats with enterotoxemia. CD Anti toxin has but one purpose, to rid the body of toxins in the gut, what it not used by the goat will be eliminated through the urine. "


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 19, 2012)

She is still whining. I worry but just not sure what else to do for her now. She eats great. I think she actually would like more food personally. I am feeding every 6 hours and she gets no more than 4 oz. She still acts hungry. She sucks my t shirt and my neck. But I don't want to cause her to scour again. I got her a goat buddy. It was supposed to be 2 week old bottle baby. Instead its a 4 week old baby who is being taken off the mom and has never seen or sucked a bottle. The bottle thing was disclosed as we were leaving. 

UMmmmmm yea I just made bad worse. I was hoping the new kid will help my poor orphan but right now those chances are not looking great. The other one is busy trying to find a way to escape and crying.  The mom to this one apparently has her babies too young and was not handling feeding them well and is now worn down and needing built back up.  I plan on never sleeping again. I should have just walked away probably.  My orphan is still crying and now another one is too and my son is crying with them both. These other breeder had a massive white dog that guards their goats and when that was sniffing and licking the goat she stopped whining. So now its playing with me and a huge scary dog licking her is the only times she stops crying.  I'm not sure if she is really sick or if this really is just lonely.


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## bonbean01 (Jun 19, 2012)

Oh dear...sorry this isn't working out well...new baby is probably crying for the Mama and that will stop...could the first baby still be hungry?  I just don't know...and now your little human baby is crying too????  Really hope this all settles out well really quickly!!!!  You will sleep again...just maybe not for a few days.  Hang in there


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## jodief100 (Jun 19, 2012)

I am sorry you are having trouble.  I usually give a baby as much as they want, 3 x a day.  I don't raise too many but it works.  

It will be difficult to get a baby as old as the other one is on a bottle.  The key is don't try too often.  If they won't take the bottle, wait 8 hours and try again.  They need to get hungry.  Hopefully it won't take more than 3 tries.


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## Roll farms (Jun 19, 2012)

My boer kids are usually taking 8-12 oz by the time they're 4 days old, 3x a day.  Just increase SLOWLY .....let her have 5 oz. next time...then 6 the next time...try 8 after that....

It's not so much the amount, but the timing....You really really can go 7 or 8 hrs w/ out feeding her, I PROMISE....She may be whining b/c she's never good and full.

I feed the kids at 9 or 10pm then they don't get fed again until 7 or 8 am.  Yes, even newborns.  And I've never had one starve.  Promise!

eta, Jody's giving you good advice.  That kid may take a bottle if you let her get good and hungry, but I also promise you this...she's already freaked out, if you keep pestering her w/ that scary new bottle, she's never gonna take it.  
Let her go all night, then try again in the am.  If she still won't eat....wait 4-6 hrs.  If she won't eat by noon-ish tomorrow....take her back to the breeder or to someone w/ a doe she can nurse off of.


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 19, 2012)

Yep I have a plan. Its a pretty good plan too and I am working on my schedule so i can sleep. ( ahh lovely sleep I do miss you) Anywho the first baby is named Minka and the newest baby is named Holly. Holly is a 4 week old Saanen?/Boer mix.  Minka is my orphan and Holly is a fat little butterball whose mom got pregnant too early and had too many babies and is in dire need of building up. Apparently even supplementing her feed has not been enough, she just wasn't ready so even though her babies are fat healthy butterballs she is not. Just from raising some calves and such before I would say this probably stunted her. I can't see how it wouldn't. 

Anywho Minka ate at 8 and I tried to feed Holly at 9. Minka will eat again at 2am. Holly will not be fed till 6am when I get up for chores. I figure she will be practically starving by then which upsets me but I think its needed to get her to take that bottle. At 6am all my human children are still asleep and Minka will still have a couple hours before her feeding. That gives me 2 solid hours to play, cuddle and convince Holly that I am mom, I provide food, and I will comfort her. Thats the plan. I also plan to follow that kid primers advice and start to introduce hay and feed in small amounts as soon as we get her bottle situation sorted out. If I cannot get her to eat then I guess Its down to tubing her. I dread that because I am not experienced and despite having a lesson on how too from an old hand I don't want to mess up. So thats my back up but I am determined it won't come to that.  At 8 I have to head back in, make my human kids breakfast and make Minka her breakfast and get her fed and do all my little checks on her. I am still checking her temp regularly.  Then Minka is going into a "kid" pen and is going to hang out with Holly all day. They have shade and shelter there so she should be fine. I want them bonded to me but I want them able to be happy with each other. Anywho after that I am off to TSC to get more probiotic paste. btw what the heck do I do with the stupid kid replacer stuff. I swear the only person who said they like the stuff is the breeder who sold me Minka ( the one who was going to let her starve and let her mom bleed out).  I am making arrangements to have my husband pick up goats milk for me once a week too so I can keep providing my girls the best I can give them. Thankfully the guy who has been helping me and who gave me the initial 2 gal of goats milk lives not 15 minutes from his work. 

So who wants to come spend the week with me.


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## Roll farms (Jun 19, 2012)

If the new one's mom is a Saanen, they can get verrry puny looking when in heavy production, even if they start out 'ok'....that breed just looks bony when in milk, sort of like a good milking holstein will look bad when first freshened.  And it can seem like forever to get them back up to snuff.

I wouldn't advocate tube feeding a strong kid, esp. long term.  I only ever tube feed weak itty bitty kids.  A kid who's perky will fight and it'll be hard to tell which way the tube is going.  Not trying to scare you, but that's not going to be a good plan for long term maintenance.  

Now you need to run out and buy a milk doe to put her on....


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## heatherlynnky (Jun 19, 2012)

I am noticing that goat math is almost identical to chicken math. I wonder how long it will take my husband to catch on this time. lol


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## Roll farms (Jun 19, 2012)

I know how many goats we have.  But I always say, "I dunno" when people ask in front of my DH.....I don't want HIM to know.


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## babsbag (Jun 20, 2012)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I know how many goats we have.  But I always say, "I dunno" when people ask in front of my DH.....I don't want HIM to know.


x2

I actually added up the kids the other day and almost scared myself. It is chicken math, but much more expensive.

As far as the 4 week old bottle baby goes it make take longer than 8 hours to get her hungry. I had a 2 week old that became an orphan and it took me almost 3 days. I would try morning and night, and it was a no go until he got really really hungry. He was a big chunk of a kid and he had a lot of reserves to draw on so be ready for the long haul with her. What kind a nipple you use can make a difference too. She may not like the pritchard nipple if that is what you have. At 4 weeks that might be a little small for her. I used the grey lambar nipple with my 2 week old.

Once he was on a bottle I only fed morning and night as I am gone all day. Even at 2 weeks he did fine on that schedule. He eventually went onto a bucket and he decided how much to eat. He ate until he was full, but seldom did he leave me any in the bucket either. I also have raised 2 kids that their dam more or less rejected and I had to hold her for them to nurse. I did this 2 x a day for 8 weeks, and again, they did fine. They don't have to eat nearly as often as you might think.

Good luck with this, I think you may be in for a battle of wills with the new one, but I hope I am wrong.


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