# how do i get lice eggs off my pygmy doe kids



## nifftiness (May 31, 2010)

Hi. I was wondering. My two little does I just brought home are covered in lice eggs. All over their little faces and the stip down their back. I covered them in DriKill powder last night, and thought i could use a lice comb to get the eggs off but that doesnt work. Bathing them isnt working either. Is  their anything  that would help get them off. 
I have them in the house once in awhile, and i also  have to take them to be disbudded soon and I dont want to gross out the person doing it. Any advice would be great.


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 1, 2010)

Olive oil and tea tree oil mixed together a spray bottle spray them down, it kills the lice and a lot of the eggs.


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## ()relics (Jun 1, 2010)

ivomec...it kills parasites, both internal and external.  If the eggs do hatch, which is not likely after an ivo treatment, the newly hatched larva will surely be eliminated once exposed to the ivomec.  You could comb them to rid them of the eggs but I would treat them first to lessen the chance of viable eggs/larva/adults "let off the hook"  before they get the effects of the drug....jmo


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## mully (Jun 1, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> Olive oil and tea tree oil mixed together a spray bottle spray them down, it kills the lice and a lot of the eggs.


My vote would be for the tea tree oil ... works for so many things and it is not like giving another dose of meds or injection. This mixture works for cuts and abrasions. Good prices at www.SFherb.com


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

Oil a goat in a dusty, straw-covered barn?

Really?


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## mully (Jun 2, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Oil a goat in a dusty, straw-covered barn?
> 
> Really?


It is a light oil spray and is gone in a day.


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## ()relics (Jun 2, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> Olive oil and tea tree oil mixed together a spray bottle spray them down, it kills the lice and a lot of the eggs.


I don't know about goats BUT I do know tea tree oil contains a neuro-toxcin that will render a dog helpless in a matter of hours with the possibility of death.  I wouldn't use the stuff....BUT that is just me


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 2, 2010)

()relics said:
			
		

> Hollywood Goats said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Undiluted tea tree oil is very strong it can even make you blind, but diluted it kills small things like lice, infections etc.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 2, 2010)

What are the measurements for the olive oil and tea tree oil and is there anything else you put into that bottle?


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

So...if it's harsh enough in certain forms to cause blindness and death, how exactly is it _better_ than ivermectin or pyrethrin?

That's something I could never quite get my head around..  I mean, despite the fact that I've been cast as someone who jabs his goats with meds at the least provocation, I'm actually pretty judicious about it because I truly don't like filling them with chemicals..  That much, I suppose the tea tree oil, grapeseed extract, diatomaceous earth crowd and I can probably agree is a good thing..

But, really...isn't tea tree oil a chemical too, when it comes right down to it?  I mean, yeah, it's "natural"...but _Arsenic_ is natural.  Point being, just because something's natural doesn't make it harmless..

And it's not as if ivermectin is 100% synthesized anyway...it's derived from streptomyces bacterium.  And pyrethrin was orginally derived daisy flowers..

Someone help me understand that..

I would ask if y'all would douse yourselves in tea-tree oil if YOU had lice, but I won't..    I will say that, for me...uh, yeah, gimme something modern and chemical-y that kills them RIGHT NOW.


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## mully (Jun 2, 2010)

Tea tree oil was used by the Aborigines for thousands of years


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## ()relics (Jun 2, 2010)

...did they use it on their goats, their dogs, or their enemies?   sorry in advance I just couldn't resist...


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

mully said:
			
		

> Tea tree oil was used by the Aborigines for thousands of years


Look more closely at my post...  What I think you'll find is that I was stating my own observations and asking questions of those who claim to be "in the know," so to speak, in regard to tea tree oil..  In fact, I specifically asked for _someone to help me understand_.

And...for what it's worth...an aboriginal male's life expectancy -- _to this very day_ -- is a mere 59 years, whereas a non-aboriginal Aussie male's life expectancy is 77.  Aborigines also have about 3x the fetal mortality rate of non-aboriginal Aussies.

Not exactly the picture of health and longevity.

That said, I can only imagine that the aborigines from thousands of years ago -- the ones you point to as examples of the wonders of tea tree oil -- probably lived to the ripe old age of...what...35, maybe?

Just saying.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

I'm happy to let everyone be their own judge on this one.

In the meantime, I'm still kinda waiting on an education about how tea tree oil is better than ivermectin or pyrethrin.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 2, 2010)

Actually, you may need to use tea tree oil for your lice if you ever get it. Lice in humans is becoming immune to over the counter treatments. There was a story on it in Nightline last week. I don't know if it is all over the country yet but definitely in California and one other state. Nightliine was calling it super lice. They have had to resign to more natural ways of getting rid of lice or stronger chemicals that you can only get by prescription. It is actually a new big business to help people get rid of lice. 

I would consider the tea tree oil just another option. If lice in humans is becoming immune to the chemicals used to get rid of human head lice, no reason why that can't happen with Ivomec. Not a bad idea to try other things while Ivomec is still working so you can come up with another option if Ivomec does stop working for you. Just something to consider.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

I just wanted to know why it was being suggested as somehow safer or better -- or, at least, that it's "not like giving another dose of meds" -- considering it's known to be neurotoxic in certain doses and to certain types of animals....  

To me, that sounds _exactly like ivermectin_.

So...I'll ask again, but I'll be more specific this time:  Can someone please tell me why using tea tree oil is NOT basically the equivalent of "giving another dose of meds"?

My thinking, at this point, is that people -- for whatever reason -- simply _feeeeeeeeel_ better about using tea tree oil.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

Just FYI...

From the American Cancer Society :

"Tea tree oil is toxic when swallowed. It has been reported to cause drowsiness, confusion, hallucinations, coma, unsteadiness, weakness, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach upset, blood cell abnormalities, and severe rashes. It should be kept away from pets and children. Relying on this type of treatment alone and avoiding or delaying conventional medical care for cancer may have serious health consequences. "

Ivermectin isn't toxic when swallowed..  

Oh, and when applied topically to cats...they die sometimes. 

Also of note from that particular link is the fact that the toxic parts of tea tree oil are A) readily absorbed through skin, B) fat soluble, which means they build up, and that C) there's no antidote.

Yeah, totally NOT AT ALL like those evil medications.   :/


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## nifftiness (Jun 2, 2010)

I wasnt actualy looking to find out how to kill them. Im hoping i killed the lice with the Dri kill. But im going to follow up in two weeks with something else just to be sure. I hear good points with both methods, but because of the amount of lice on these little ladys, (echo and libby), im questioning if theyv been wormed. Im leaning towards the Ivermectin beacues it kinda nails two in one doesnt it? Im terribly new to all this.  Thanks for the advice though. I didnt know about the tea tree oil, and I do love natural remadies. I think everyone just has to remember that moderation it key mabe with anything I suppose even natural things.  I read that you can buy tea tree shampoo for people at regular grocery stores and its supposed to help as a resistance to lice if used once or twice a week. 

What I meant in my first add is. How do i get the actual eggs out of the hair.  Now that their hopefully dead, the eggs are not combing out even with a lice comb and their not washing out.  Do I have to wait it out, I wondered if like vegtable oil or something would help them come off.  Theirs so much on their face that i wouldnt be able to safely use oil on their heads i dont think.  I know that sounds rediculose. Im a bit of a freak like that, lol. I thought about shaving them, but their Pygmys and little and its still cold out here and I have no idea how long it would take for the hair to come back.


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 2, 2010)

from Wiki on Tea Tree oil:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_tree_oil

and on Ivermectin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivermectin

both are toxic in large quantities. many natural things are toxic in large amounts like Chocolate is toxic to humans and animals it is simply takes smaller amounts to be toxic to animal than humans.

When using a remedy it does not matter if it is natural or not it still needs to be used in moderation.

From the mix use about 1/2 cup of olive oil with 2 or 3 drops of tea tree oil, spray it on the goat, you do not need to throw away the milk as you would with Ivermectin, and like medication.

It is also safe on smaller animals and is safe for people , I have used it for many infections, abrasions, etc.

Everyone can informatively make a decision on which method to use.


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 2, 2010)

nifftiness said:
			
		

> I wasnt actualy looking to find out how to kill them. Im hoping i killed the lice with the Dri kill. But im going to follow up in two weeks with something else just to be sure. I hear good points with both methods, but because of the amount of lice on these little ladys, (echo and libby), im questioning if theyv been wormed. Im leaning towards the Ivermectin beacues it kinda nails two in one doesnt it? Im terribly new to all this.  Thanks for the advice though. I didnt know about the tea tree oil, and I do love natural remadies. I think everyone just has to remember that moderation it key mabe with anything I suppose even natural things.  I read that you can buy tea tree shampoo for people at regular grocery stores and its supposed to help as a resistance to lice if used once or twice a week.
> 
> What I meant in my first add is. How do i get the actual eggs out of the hair.  Now that their hopefully dead, the eggs are not combing out even with a lice comb and their not washing out.  Do I have to wait it out, I wondered if like vegtable oil or something would help them come off.  Theirs so much on their face that i wouldnt be able to safely use oil on their heads i dont think.  I know that sounds rediculose. Im a bit of a freak like that, lol. I thought about shaving them, but their Pygmys and little and its still cold out here and I have no idea how long it would take for the hair to come back.


The eggs are super glued to the hairs.

http://www.goatbiology.com/lice.html


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## cmjust0 (Jun 2, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> ... you do not need to throw away the milk as you would with Ivermectin, and like medication.


Why?  Or, rather...how do you know?  Have their been milk withdrawal periods set on tea tree oil like their have been with ivermectin?

Seems to me that since the toxic portions of tea tree oil are readily absorbed through skin and stored in fat, and since goats impart fat to milk, then it would be reasonable to assume that some of the toxic parts of tea tree oil would be passed along in the butterfat?  

And considering that nobody advises actually _ingesting_ any amount of tea tree oil, and that the ACS says it's toxic when swallowed, is it possible that there should, perhaps, be a milk withdrawal period on tea tree oil that we don't know about?  

Is it possible that we're maybe not seeing a potential risk because it's _assumed to be safe_ simply because it's _natural_?


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 2, 2010)

I am not assuming, my aunt who has been in the medical practice for over 20 years, says that it is fine and is a preferred treatment for lice.
I trust her, you do not have to and no one else has to.


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## ()relics (Jun 2, 2010)

I have the solution...I have edited the appropriate "definitions" at Wiki....Good thing about Wikipedia...If you don't like the definition provided;  You just change it...
....CM you are in this case, right...There are plenty of drugs that have withdrawl times listed for variuos species.  The _actual_ residue of the drug in the meat/milk is untested so since it has not been determined that the drug has completely dissipated; it is labled with a generic withdrawl time...Just To Be Safe...Where as any "natural product" is assumed to be safe _because _ it is a natural product...kind of the opposite side of the coin...Again I have heard of people spraying their dogs with tea tree oil to stop itching, rashes, and as flea and tick repellant, and I have also heard horror stories of the ones that didn't pull through...


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 2, 2010)

I have both end of the argument working in my family, my mother is a certified herbalist and my aunt (her sister) has her doctorate in nursing and has been in practicing  for over 20 years, they are always disagreeing over which medication to take for what, but usually my mother wins with hard facts, and proof.

Natural cures _have_ to be toxic otherwise they would not work, unnatural are toxic in a different way, it is your choice as to which toxins you want to put in your body or on the bodies of your animals.


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 2, 2010)

Maybe I should have worded it differently: Doctor Bruanwell's professional opinion is that it is safe to use the milk after a tea tree oil treatment.


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## PattySh (Jun 2, 2010)

One of my baby  goats was COVERED in lice and nits (thousands!) when I got her. She was just a few days old. I washed her in Permithrin puppy shampoo.I only gave her the one bath and left the shampoo on 15 min. By the next day all the lice where dead and I combed them off with a flea comb. I could not get the nits out no matter what I tried, oil, corn starch, even a puppy flea comb. They were just too small. They never hatched which I was grateful for! As she grew (she's 4 months now) they fell out with the hair growth.


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## mamaluv321 (Jun 3, 2010)

I think the angle that us not being looked at here is the amount of said toxin actually needed to work; teatree is EXTREMELY toxic to insects so very little has to be used. The ivermectin may actually have a much larger ratio (please correct me if I'm wrong; I have no clue ) which is why you toss the milk. If you are using 2-3 drops of teatree in a carrier oil, the absorbtion rate, IMO, would be fairly low, probably undectable. Again, my 2 cents. Also, I have no personal experience with goat lice, I do have some with teatree. The reality is that what you get at most stores is an already "diluted" version anyhow, companies can't take the risk of law suits due to toxicity. And even then it still (but let me say PLEASE DILUTE AGAIN!) works great on lice and fleas, I've used it on my dog for 13 years (and myself for many different uses much longer) with no issue. But someone already said it, moderation is definately key with anything you choose to use.  

As to the question of removing the nits, olive oil should help with that as well, helps them slide off the shaft of hair. Other wise, you could try just brushing them _alot_!   Good luck!


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> Natural cures _have_ to be toxic otherwise they would not work,


Not sure I believe this, but......ok, I guess.  



> unnatural are toxic in a different way


What different way??!  What makes "natural" and "unnatural" toxins different, aside from the fact that one's "natural" and the other is "unnatural"?  That's almost precisely what I keep having to ask, yet NOBODY seems to be able to give my an answer -- or even anything _remotely close_ to an answer.

Can you?  

Can anyone?!?



> it is your choice as to which toxins you want to put in your body or on the bodies of your animals.


Can't argue with that, I suppose..  



> Maybe I should have worded it differently: Doctor Bruanwell's professional opinion is that it is safe to use the milk after a tea tree oil treatment.


Based on what?  Has she done studies, or is this just her saying "Meh...  It's probably fine."


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> I think the angle that us not being looked at here is the amount of said toxin actually needed to work; teatree is EXTREMELY toxic to insects so very little has to be used. The ivermectin may actually have a much larger ratio (please correct me if I'm wrong; I have no clue ) which is why you toss the milk.  If you are using 2-3 drops of teatree in a carrier oil, the absorbtion rate, IMO, would be fairly low, probably undectable.


Ivomec injectable is 1% ivermectin.  There's literally 0.5ml of actual ivermectin in a 50ml vial -- the rest is carrier.  

Let's just say I give a 125lb lactating doe a 5ml dose of ivermectin injectable, SQ..  I've literally given her 10% of the vial, which translates to a measly 0.05ml of actual ivermectin -- literally, about one twentieth of a single drop.  Even at those kinds of levels, ivermectin is detectable in milk -- based on what I've read --_ for nearly two weeks._

Now....do we really think it's just impossible that the _readily absorbed, fat soluble toxins_ in tea tree oil could possibly be detectable in milk?  And if so...why?  Because we have a hard time thinking about such small quantities of things having those kinds of effects?

And if that's the case, does it seem somewhat _more_ possible now that we've all had occasion to consider just how little actual ivermectin is in a sizeable dose of 5ml, and for just how long it's detectable?


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 3, 2010)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Hollywood Goats said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She has studied it and she was the one who told me to use it.

 the OP asked for advice I had some so I gave it
I am not a chemist or a doctor, I cannot look at a formula and tell you how each component responds to the other components, my mother and aunt can I am not going to bother my overworked mother or my widowed aunt about this.

Thank you


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## mamaluv321 (Jun 3, 2010)

> > unnatural are toxic in a different way
> 
> 
> What different way??!  What makes "natural" and "unnatural" toxins different, aside from the fact that one's "natural" and the other is "unnatural"?  That's almost precisely what I keep having to ask, yet NOBODY seems to be able to give my an answer -- or even anything _remotely close_ to an answer.
> ...


well, I'm trying... toxins have different reactions in different species. Just like some spider venom will kill a small rodent instantly but just make a full grown man a bit ill. Insects like like lice and fleas (and ants as well) have no tolerance. The tiny amount needed to actually kill the lice would likely not leave much trace in the goat. Besides, it takes *ALOT* of teatree oil to be toxic for humans; ever had teatree tooth picks? I have, for years. This is not to say I wouldn't use ivermectin if needed, it a broad spectrum where teatree isn't. Keeping in mind, I don't actually have any goats yet, still in my "research" phase. But I do have other animals and have used teatree for years, lightly, with no bad results. I have also read about ppl using half of a 6oz bottle to rid their dog of fleas, and it killed the dog. Just remember, the teatree is being topically, not orally. Much lower rate of absorption. Hopefully the came a bit closer to the answer you wanted!


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## mamaluv321 (Jun 3, 2010)

Also just wanted to say, not trying to get into a 'i'm right you're wrong' kinda debate, not my style. Everyone has the right to their ideals.


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## MiltonVale (Jun 3, 2010)

Call me crazy but growing up it was a treat to get some tea tree chewing gum. I love this stuff!
Also use tea tree oil shampoo, It's the generic version of Paul Mitchell. It sells as: Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Special Shampoo. Leaves hair soft and manageable. Cleanses hair & scalp of impurities. I love this stuff too!
We use a tea tree *diluted* solution on our dogs during extreme flea outbreaks.
Mostly I use DT earth to control insects. "earth for the earth!"
Whatever you decide is the right choice for your herd, follow the recomended use or pactice or dose. Whichever the case may be.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> well, I'm trying... toxins have different reactions in different species. Just like some spider venom will kill a small rodent instantly but just make a full grown man a bit ill. Insects like like lice and fleas (and ants as well) have no tolerance. The tiny amount needed to actually kill the lice would likely not leave much trace in the goat.


As I mentioned earlier....  A very scant 0.05ml of actual ivermectin will kill lice and mites off a full-grown goat weighing up to 150lbs, and can still leave traces in the milk for about two weeks.

How does that fact alone not kinda discredit the whole idea that...well, yanno...but it's just such a tiny amount of tea tree oil that it just couldn't possibly leave much of a trace.

I mean...it could...it really, really could.  And the point is that we have _literally no idea_ A) whether or not it actually does, nor B) if it could potentially be harmful if it turns out that it does.

Seriously, think about it.....you're talking about 0.05 mililiters of ivermectin..  Like, if you took a single drop of water and split it 20 ways...one portion of that would be about 0.05ml.  And that can leave residue in the milk for up to TWO WEEKS!  

Yet we're just assuming that there's just no possible way a few drops (a few whole ml's, in other words) could do the same thing...despite the fact that it could be 40-60 times as much tea tree oil as ivermectin.

Please...I beg...someone make sense of that for me.



> Besides, it takes *ALOT* of teatree oil to be toxic for humans; ever had teatree tooth picks? I have, for years. This is not to say I wouldn't use ivermectin if needed, it a broad spectrum where teatree isn't. Keeping in mind, I don't actually have any goats yet, still in my "research" phase. But I do have other animals and have used teatree for years, lightly, with no bad results. I have also read about ppl using half of a 6oz bottle to rid their dog of fleas, and it killed the dog. Just remember, the teatree is being topically, not orally. Much lower rate of absorption. Hopefully the came a bit closer to the answer you wanted!


Unfortunately...not really.  :/

I'm not knocking you...I'm just not getting any actual, verifiable answers to indicate that tea tree oil is any safer than ivermectin.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

MiltonVale said:
			
		

> Call me crazy but growing up it was a treat to get some tea tree chewing gum. I love this stuff!
> Also use tea tree oil shampoo, It's the generic version of Paul Mitchell. It sells as: Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Special Shampoo. Leaves hair soft and manageable. Cleanses hair & scalp of impurities. I love this stuff too!
> We use a tea tree *diluted* solution on our dogs during extreme flea outbreaks.
> Mostly I use DT earth to control insects. "earth for the earth!"
> Whatever you decide is the right choice for your herd, follow the recomended use or pactice or dose. Whichever the case may be.


People use ivermectin to cure river blindness, kill internal parasites, etc..  People use it on people, I mean..  

My original question was....can anyone tell me how tea tree oil is SAFER than ivermectin?  That's what all the tea tree oil proponents were saying, basically..

Nobody's been able to back it up..

Something I'd like for everyone to understand is that I'm not knocking tea tree oil, per se...if it works and it's safe, great!  If it's safer than ivermectin, even better!

Just show me...give me reason to believe that..  I've sought it out on my own, and I can't find it..  Until I do, it looks like a potential neurotoxin that's fat-soluble, can be OD'd, and for which there's no antidote nor proven dosage levels and withdrawal periods..

To me....hell, at least ivermectin has dosages and withdrawals, even if it, too, can be ODd and has no antidote.

Again, I ask of anyone and everyone..........show me how it's SAFER than ivermectin.  That's really all I'm looking for!!


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 3, 2010)

A medical study of Ivermectin: 

http://www.ema.europa.eu/pdfs/vet/mrls/091504en.pdf

I don't have the time to get a informative one on tea tree oil


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## mamaluv321 (Jun 3, 2010)

I don't need a scientific study done to tell me that teatree is safe, I've used it for long enough to know. And to be honest after seeing "studies" that have been done on herbal remedies by the FDA, I don't really trust over half of them because they were paid for by corps  selling synthetics. Ivermectin is a _Synthetic_ version of a plant dirivative. I personally trust plant chemicals more than manmade ones. Plants don't have monetary motivations. Just my feelings.


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 3, 2010)

mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> I don't need a scientific study done to tell me that teatree is safe, I've used it for long enough to know. And to be honest after seeing "studies" that have been done on herbal remedies by the FDA, I don't really trust over half of them because they were paid for by corps  selling synthetics. Ivermectin is a _Synthetic_ version of a plant dirivative. I personally trust plant chemicals more than manmade ones. Plants don't have monetary motivations. Just my feelings.


My mother has found proof that the FDA fakes studies for big drug companies to make more money.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> A medical study of Ivermectin:
> 
> http://www.ema.europa.eu/pdfs/vet/mrls/091504en.pdf
> 
> I don't have the time to get a informative one on tea tree oil


I've looked for such studies on tea tree oil...can't really find one.  

That's kinda the whole problem I'm pointing out.  



			
				mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> I don't need a scientific study done to tell me that teatree is safe, I've used it for long enough to know. And to be honest after seeing "studies" that have been done on herbal remedies by the FDA, I don't really trust over half of them because they were paid for by corps  selling synthetics. Ivermectin is a Synthetic version of a plant dirivative. I personally trust plant chemicals more than manmade ones. Plants don't have monetary motivations. Just my feelings.


That's all well and good, but it still doesn't answer the question about whether or not it's safer than ivermectin.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

BTW, all.....ivermectin isn't a synthetic version of a plant dervative, nor is it some 100%, lab-created monstrosity..

Avermectins -- the active ingredients in ivermectin -- are actually _biosynthesized_ by streptomyces avermilitis bacteria.  

And by _biosynthesized_, I mean _created_.  

Yeah...you're reading right...ivermectin is basically created by bacteria.  It's pretty much a natural byproduct of bacterial activity that happened to be discovered and exploited by man.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> mamaluv321 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't exactly doubt that, and I'd love to see the proof...but it still wouldn't likely provide any insight or answers to my original question.


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## mamaluv321 (Jun 3, 2010)

> How Toxic is Tea Tree Oil?
> 
> 
> Purchase
> ...


http://www.teatreewonders.com/toxic.html
took me about 5 seconds to google this site, not a study but fairly informative at the very least.


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## ()relics (Jun 3, 2010)

just for the flip side of the coin:    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tea-tree-oil/NS_patient-teatreeoil

This is a report from 2010, not 2004.  It has been compiled by The Mayo Clinic.  Read through some of the headings in the left side margin...May want to take a very close look at the evidence section and note that most of the paragraphs end with something along the lines of futher research is needed or not enough data is present.
  Also note the safety section, specifically the side effects and warnings paragraph.
  I get the impression that this "natural substance" is really just a neuro-toxic poison that can be used as a home remedy, according to wives' tales.  Dosages seem to be a little foggy, depending on the purity of the substance you are using, and no one can really be sure exactly how pure their oil is because it does not have to be labeled, again just from my reading.  At least I know how much poison, or ivomec if you prefer, I am using because it is clearly labeled and the dosages are "right on the bottle"...really using a report from the EU from 2004...that is the best you could come up with.  
  The OP wanted to know about lice and goats...If you are a serious goat person with more than 2 animals there is only 1 answer ,or possibly a few different drugs, but certainly not tea tree oil...Incidently maybe you could use it on some of your goats kind of conduct your own study on exactly how effective it is or how sensitive goats are to it _Before _ you suggest it as a treatment to some one else....JMO...

You really shouldn't use a website that is trying to sell tea tree oil as a basis for anything...The conflict of interest can get in the way of the truth sometimes


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## ksalvagno (Jun 3, 2010)

Actually, there is no goat dosage on the Ivomec bottle. At least not mine. 

Personally I'm not for or against anything but just pointing out that most drugs don't have a goat dosage on it along with no alpaca dosages. Not to mention that we dose goats and alpacas way higher than then the dosage for cattle and swine.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

mamaluv321 said:
			
		

> http://www.teatreewonders.com/toxic.html
> took me about 5 seconds to google this site, not a study but fairly informative at the very least.


Informative...perhaps, depending on whether or not that's _actual_ information.  If it's accurate and tells the whole truth, then yes, it's very informative.  

If not, well, then it's quite the opposite and would be something I'd consider _mis_informative.

Let's find out.  

First of all, note how the author of says "laboratory animals" in regard to the 1.9g/kg lethal median dose, which -- to me, at least -- seems to suggest that he's speaking of a range of animals.

Well..I found the study he's obviously referencing in about 5 seconds with google..  Turns out, he conveniently forgot to mention a thing or two that came from the same study..



			
				WHO study said:
			
		

> *Toxicology*
> 
> The dermal median lethal dose (LD50) of the essential oil in rabbits is >5.0mg/kg body weight, since 5.0mg/kg resulted in the deaths of two out of 10 treated rabbits (37). The oral LD50 in rats is 1.9g/kg body weight (range of doses 1.4-2.7 g/kg) (24, 25, 37, 38). The signs of severe toxicity are respiratory distress, and coma with diarrhoea (26, 38). A few cases of toxicosis after topical application of high doses of the essential oil to dogs and cats have been reported. Symptoms included central nervous system depression, weakness, and lack of coordination and muscle tremors that were resolved within 2-3 days after supportive treatment (39).


Ok, so, the threshold is WAY HIGH in rats...fair enough...but note it only took .5mg (5/1000th's of a gram) to hit the LD50 for rabbits..  Again, versus 1.9g (1900/1000ths of a gram) for rats..  

That's, what...uh...let me get my calculator here.....HOLY CRAP ****380 TIMES LOWER**** THAN THE RAT LEVEL.

It does get even better, though...  Look even more closely at the wording..  Notice how the rat's median lethal dose was _oral_, whereas the rabbits' level was _dermal_.  

*DERMAL!* 

In other words, you can take 1/380th the amount of tea tree oil it would take to kill the average rat through straight-up _ingestion_, put it on a rabbit's skin, and it will kill the average rabbit!



:/

And that's not even to speak of the CNS depression, weakness, loss of coordination, tremors, and all the other fun stuff that occurs at _toxic_, yet NON LETHAL dosages..


Informative?  No.  Not really.

Misinformation?  Yeah, I think so.  I absolutely think so.  Seems to me that all someone has to do is look at the URL -- "teatreewonders" -- to come to the obvious conclusion that whoever's in charge of the place might just have a weeeeee bit of a pro-tea-tree-oil agenda..

But, yanno....that's just me thinking.




And, I gotta say...so far, none of this seems to be boding too well for tea tree oil's supposed safety versus ivermectin.

Just sayin'.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Actually, there is no goat dosage on the Ivomec bottle. At least not mine.


True...but you can go to Langston University's goat research web page and get off-label dosages on almost any anthelmintic out there..  

Dosages they've determined through rigorous scientific study..



Last I checked, tea tree oil didn't make the list.


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## mamaluv321 (Jun 3, 2010)

FWIW, it's not just a nuerotoxin, it's actually anti-bactirial and anti fungal as well (nuerotoxins don't work on fungi) so not an old wives remedy.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 3, 2010)

The problem is that there are certain things being stated as fact in this thread, when they're really just personal preferences, opinions, experiences, and observations..  

Now, I'm not saying it's _you_ doing that, per se...it's just the simple fact that it's being done that's irking me at the moment.  I think that's what has a couple of us on "high alert," so to speak..

For instance...when folks say things like:

'it isn't like giving a medication'
'you don't have to discard the milk'
'unnatural medications are toxic in a different way'

Statements like that either need to be backed up, or worded differently to clearly demonstrate that they're _opinions_.

We have lurkers, folks....lurkers who are liable to take your opinion as fact and put it to practice.  

Remember that, always.

I think I can speak for some of the skeptics in saying that it's not so much that we don't believe it's even possible for tea tree oil to be safer....it's just that we don't trust simply being told it's safer, despite the fact that there's very little research out there and the fact that what research exists clearly demonstrates tea tree oil's ability to KILL ANIMALS -- sometimes at fairly low topical doses.

I know I've asked this about fourteen times now, but I feel it's necessary to reiterate it:  Can anyone show me that tea tree oil is SAFER than ivermectin?

Hell...for that matter, can anyone show me that tea tree oil is at least _as safe as_ ivermectin?

That's really all I'm looking for..  

Anybody?


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## Hollywood Goats (Jun 3, 2010)

cmjust0: are you trying to sell Invermectin or something? way are you pushing it so hard?


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## cmjust0 (Jun 4, 2010)

Hollywood Goats said:
			
		

> cmjust0: are you trying to sell Invermectin or something? way are you pushing it so hard?


I'm just questioning tea tree oil.  The only reason ivermectin keeps coming up is because it's the logical comparison "chemical" product in this case.

I especially like having solid, reliable information when it comes to treating my goats.  So far, I haven't gotten that from you or anyone else with regard to using tea tree oil.


I dunno..  If I were on y'alls side of the fence on this one, I truly believe I'd be saying "Wow...  Maybe I should look into this a little more."...but that's me.  

Guess I'm just _objective_ like that.


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## StormyMoon (Jun 5, 2010)

Is this the same Ivomec used on dogs for Demo Mange?


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## Roll farms (Jun 5, 2010)

> StormyMoon
> Is this the same Ivomec used on dogs for Demo Mange


Yes.


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