# Whether or not a wether?



## nbelval (Aug 9, 2013)

I have a six month old male that is very "Bucky" to me. He has always been a bit shaggier and courser than our other two wethers. He has grown a beard and despite the breeder dehorning him twice and me trimming any new growth is growing horns with a blood supply in them. They are wobbly though so I don't know if he will end up knocking them off at some point. 
Recently he has begun spraying urine on his front legs and a bit on his face. 
When I got him the breeder told me he had an undescended testicle, but the vet had surgically removed it. 
There are no visible testicles. He was castrated at approximately 8 weeks. 
Wanted to know what you experienced goat people think about this and if I should make an appointment with a vet to see if there is still a retained testicle or piece that is causing his hormonal actions. 
Thanks so much!

Nicole


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## AshleyFishy (Aug 9, 2013)

nbelval said:
			
		

> if I should make an appointment with a vet to see if there is still a retained testicle or piece that is causing his hormonal actions.
> Thanks so much!
> 
> Nicole


Yup. I would.


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## nbelval (Aug 9, 2013)

Ok. So I'm not crazy for thinking that the breeder didn't get the undescended one?


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## nbelval (Aug 9, 2013)

Great. Just explained everything to my hubby and he doesn't want to spend the money having surgery on our goat. 
So...if our boy becomes too obnoxious and I can get my husband to agree at a later date will the urine spraying stop after another neutering or will it continue after castration?


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## SheepGirl (Aug 10, 2013)

I would think that if the vet surgically removed one retained testicle they would have made sure the other one came out, too. No vet worth their salt would intentionally leave an animal a cryptorchid.


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## Rocco (Aug 10, 2013)

If a vet did the original work, as stated, than the wether should be a true wether. Hopefully someone that makes it through vet school can add to two!!!

I vote with your hubby. Wait and see. Something could be done later if necessary.

Is the guy acting "bucky" because of does in heat, or just acting that way? If does are in the area....try dabbing a little Vicks Vapor Rub onto his nose/nostrils so he can't smell them. It doesn't hurt them.  We have a buck that went into rut a little too soon for our breeding program, and this technique was related to me by a guy that shows bucks. Our buck didn't fight it at all, actually seemed pleased with it. You would need to apply the Vicks a couple of times a day for as long as the does are in heat.


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## nbelval (Aug 10, 2013)

No females - just two other wethers. Who are definitely wethers  
No beards, spraying or "blubbering" from them. He's not obnoxious by any means, just ocassionally does those "Bucky" things.


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## treeclimber233 (Aug 12, 2013)

I know someone that had a male cat in the house.  They had him neutered.  Later they added a second cat (female) and since he was neutered they did not get her spayed.  She was never allowed outside and later had a litter of kittens.  That is when they discovered the vet could not count to two.  And his parts were on the outside.  The vet may have missed part of your guys testicle.  I wonder if since he "messed up" in the first place if he would finish the operation for free or at least at a discount.


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## nbelval (Aug 12, 2013)

It's almost a 3 hour drive to bring him back to the original vet and I don't want to put my guy through surgery plus 6 hrs traveling. 
I feel so bad for him. He had to be dehorned twice and that still wasn't successful, the tips of his ears had been chewed off, plus his testicle issue. He had such a rough start compared to our other two.


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## WannaBeFarmR (Aug 26, 2013)

Maybe the breeder meant that the vet did the castrating at their farm and couldn't get at the other testicle for some reason? I could picture a vet telling someone while out on the job that the other testicle would need to be removed at the vets office but that there was a possibility it would not descend and with the one removed he may be sterile and it would not cause problems? Perhaps the former owner assumed that it wouldn't be an issue? I think people sometimes only hear the cheap or cost free option when talking to a vet, the vet could have said 90% chance it needs to be surgically removed and 10% chance it won't be an issue and the former owner may have thought 10%? that's good enough for me. Not saying that's what happened... but its equally possible that it was the former owner as it was the vet, unless you really know and trust the person you got the goats from?


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## nbelval (Aug 26, 2013)

The breeder told me he had one undescended and the vet had to go in internally and remove the undescended testicle. So I'm pretty sure either the vet missed a portion or the procedure just wasn't done. I hate to think either is the case but he is definitely different than the other two boys.


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## CritterZone (Aug 26, 2013)

Having watched a surgery to remove a retained testicle on a stud colt, I can tell you that part of the testicle was not left inside.  It was either removed surgically, or it was not.  It is possible that the descended testicle was removed (probably banded) and the other left behind.  According to the vet that did the surgery on my colt, the retained testicle will not likely produce viable sperm, however, it will produce higher than average testosterone.  That may very well be why you are seeing the "bucky" behavior.  My colt was like a weight lifter with 'roid rage until after his surgery and a few months of detox.  He has a scar on his abdomen from the surgery - it was a significant opening because it required the vet to get his hand inside to find the retained testicle.  

I took pictures if anyone is interested


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## nbelval (Aug 26, 2013)

Pictures would be great! Just out of curiosity 

I'm going to wait and see how he behaves as he matures and unless he becomes intolerable I'll leave him be. I really would hate to put him through all that if I don't have to. Just wish I knew! I wonder if an ultrasound would show it?


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## CritterZone (Aug 27, 2013)

This is the retained testicle.  We were fortunate that it sat low in the abdomen and the vet did not have to spend a lot of time searching for it.  Also, the vet was very experienced with the procedure and knew what he was "looking" for.




You can see how far he had to reach in for it.  Sometimes (in horses anyhow), you have a "high flanker" where the retained testicle is very high in the abdomen, closer to the spine.  This increases the risk and makes it really difficult to find.  Some clinics are using ultrasound to locate the little bugger prior to making the first incision.




This is the size difference - the retained testicle is on the left. You can see where the testicle ends and the spermatic cord begins.  It is more obvious on the descended testicle, but you can see that the vet would not be likely to leave anything important behind.  

My vet was adamant about not removing the descended testicle until the surgery for the retained testicle was completed, for the reasons you may see in your goat.  Once the cheap and easy surgery is done, it is easy for a person to pass the animal off as neutered.  I'm not saying that is what happened in the case of your goat, but it is not an uncommon practice in the horse world because the surgery is very expensive.

It was a long two weeks of strict confinement for my colt after the surgery, but he made a full recovery and he is a sweet gelding now.


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## nbelval (Aug 28, 2013)

Those pictures are very cool, thank you for sharing.  I work at a small animal hospital so I'm always curious about procedures with other animals. 

Well I have got more information on my little wether. I'm not sure if I should start a new thread or continue on with this one...I'll start here and if I need to move it I will. 

I would love to get feedback on what others feel I should do and if I should hold the breeder financially responsible for any procedure that may have to be performed. So here goes!

Here is what I emailed the breeder:

"Hello!

The goats are doing well and we love them dearly! We do have an issue with one of them. He was the brown/good moon spotted boy that needed to be dehorned twice and also had an undescended testicle.
I'm curious if the vet actually removed that testicle or just the descended one?
I know you said both had been removed, but wondering if there was a mixup in communication between the vet and you or you and me and I got the wrong impression?
He is behaving very much like a buck. Even with trimming he keeps growing horns with a blood supply, he is getting a "mane" and a beard, he sprays urine all over his front legs and face and is constantly mounting the other boys as well as getting frisky with one of my daughters.
Wondering what could be going on with him if indeed both testicles were removed? Let me know if you've heard of this before with a wether and if you have any advice on what I should do?

Thank you!

Nicole"

Here is the reply from the breeder (I am not including names at this point):

"Hi Nicole,  The vet removed the undescended testicle as well as the descended.  Sometimes, with an undescended testicle, it can be difficult to ensure that all of the material is removed.  So there is a possibility that he is producing more testosterone than is normal for a wether..  No mixup of communication...I watched her when she removed them and related it accurately to you.

some wethers do behave more like a buck than others.  as far as the horns needing additional work, that was a problem with the original disbudding not necessarily with any 'buckiness"...it is very difficult to get all the horn material on the bucklings and scurs are not uncommon.  When scurs "arise' we advise people to simply trim the scurs on a monthly basis/and/or trim them when you trim their hooves.  it only takes a few minutes and does keep the scurs down...quite often the scurs will be knocked off with headbutting games with the other goats...sometimes they don't grow back..and sometimes they do.

Mounting behavior is seen in wethers with wethers, bucks with bucks and even does with does and of course any combination thereof---its more a goat thing than just specifically a  "male goat" thing, however, even my full males/bucks do not bother people with such behavior.  if your daughter has played with him as a baby...he may simply be replaying those games thinking it is ok and welcome...just as a bigger boy its not so much fun for us.  You might carry a water bottle and when he does something objectionable to you or your daughter give him a good hearty squirt...usually quit effective,
If you find the behavior untolerable the only recommendation I can make is that you find another home for him/or both of them. wish I had something else to suggest."

My reply:

"I don't mind any of his behaviors other than the urine spraying. There is definitely a testosterone issue going on. 
Can you give me the vets information please? I would like to get a copy of the records for him if possible so I can show my vet where and how the undescended testicle was removed especially if he has to go back in and look for remaining tissue. We are going to do a testosterone level check as well once we get the info from your vet. 
Thank you so much for your help, I appreciate it!"

She emailed me back with the vet name and number, I was able to find an email address for the vet and went that route as I have all the info saved and easy to pass on to my vet. 

Here is what the vet emailed to me:

"Hi Nicole.  I remember the procedure well.  I actually still have the "testicle" saved in a formalin jar.  That apparently was not a testicle.  I was very not-confident that I had gotten all of the testicle and if he is having buck-like behavior, almost certainly did not.  My apologies.  Sharon and I both knew there was a possibility that the testicle may not have been removed but were hoping to give the goat a chance.  


Here were my notes from that day:
L testicle decended, but R not palpable.  Urethra located, and what seems to be gubernaculum attached inside scrotum.  Traction applied to gubernaculum until a tiny testicular structure removed and excised.  It seems as if vas deferens  has been removed as well, and testicle structure is compatible with testicle on cut surface, although epididymus cannot be found.  Without histo on the structure removed, it is impossible to know if the structure removed is indeed absolutely the retained testicle.  Saved in formalin for eval if desired.
In addition, there was a fair amount of trauma to the penis/urethra during exploration.  Resflor given for both anti-inflammatory effects and for infection prevention.  Owner to monitor carefully for successful urination."

Now, had the breeder been upfront about this I would have had the tissue sample sent to a lab for verification. I work for a small animal vet it wouldn't have cost me much other than the lab fee. She had the procedure done 2 days before I picked him up. Never mentioned a word to me about the trauma to his urethra and that I should perhaps keep an eye on things. Also had she mentioned the undescended testicle prior to me coming to pick him up I may have asked to select a different goat that had been 100% castrated.

Currently I'm having the vet mail me the sample (thank God she saved it), and will run that as well as a blood test for testosterone levels. Should it come back that the testicle is still in there I'm looking at paying between $100-$300 for the procedure depending on how easy or difficult it is to remove and that's on top of the blood & tissue samples being sent off to the lab. (This is not the vet I work for as mine only does small animal) Is it out of line to ask the breeder to reimburse me the cost of the surgery if he should need one?

Also, with a one testicle goat (half a buck? I can call him fiddy cent I guess) is his behavior (again, mostly concerned about the urine spraying) going to worsen as he matures? 
Trying to figure out if I leave him as is what the issues may be and what risks if any there are in searching for the missing testicle. This is my 10 year old daughters goat and she would be heartbroken (as would the rest of the family) if anything happened to him.

There, I think I'm done...just really unsure as to how to proceed and if I should contact the breeder further or be done with her altogether. Thank you!!

Nicole


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## CritterZone (Aug 28, 2013)

Wow.


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## SheepGirl (Aug 29, 2013)

I think instead of asking the breeder to pay for it, you should ask the vet to go back and fix it. Maybe have another vet present during the procedure to make sure they got everything.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

I thought of that too. Although I'm concerned that if she couldn't find it then will she be able to now? I don't know that I have full confidence in her! Still trying to figure this mess out.


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## nbelval (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh! The other thing is the vet told the breeder up front that she wasn't sure she got it. So it wasn't like she lied or anything. So I'm not sure I have the right to ask her to do it over? I'm going to talk with the vet I work for and her husband (he's a lawyer) and get their input as well. Hoping some others chime in and can offer their opinions as well. I'd especially like to hear from other breeders and what they think is fair.


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