# breeding?



## feed grass (Jun 12, 2012)

everyone still waiting until 6 months to breed crossed up meat rabbits the first time, or can you bump that up?


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## brentr (Jun 12, 2012)

I've bred two NZ does at just shy of 5 mos. and they both did fine.  Weight-wise, both were just shy of 8 lbs.  Both have had multiple litters and are great producers for me.


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## lovinglife (Jun 13, 2012)

I breed mine at 14 weeks, I know others who start at 12 if they are receptive.  My young momma's do very well and have nice sized litters.  I have fewer problems personally breeding young than when I waited until older.  Big debate on when to start and how soon after kindling to breed back.


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## PinkFox (Jun 13, 2012)

i wait till the 6-8 month mark on my s.rex's but its more because i want to know there going to reach the right size for what im looking for...ive seen WAY too many undersized standards for sale (they look more like big mini rex or mini x s.rex mixes).
health wise i dunno about meaty mixes and age...they can breed as young as 4 months...i dont think i would untill 6 months even if it wernt a size issue...i dunno, just seems like the equivalent of a 12 yr old having a baby, just because they can doesnt nessicarily mean they shoud...i wonder what kind of effect it has on thier lifespan in the longrun being bred so young?


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## pennylove (Jun 13, 2012)

Pinkfox said it just right . . . just because they can breed early doesn't really mean they should. Even prey animals like rabbits, which are essentially breeding machines, should be allowed to mature properly before being bred. It's safer and healthier for the rabbits.


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## feed grass (Jun 13, 2012)

pennylove said:
			
		

> Pinkfox said it just right . . . just because they can breed early doesn't really mean they should. Even prey animals like rabbits, which are essentially breeding machines, should be allowed to mature properly before being bred. It's safer and healthier for the rabbits.


how do you know?  Any research to back that up?

As a side note---  there is research that proves breeding ewe lambs to lamb b/w 11 and 13 months of age-- improves their productive life down the road.  This goes against nearly the majority's views- and most of the people raising sheep out there.  

Research is also showing that breeding heifers to calve at 21-23 months of age-- is also healthier, better and more productive down the road-- instead of the standard 24 months..


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## secuono (Jun 13, 2012)

I personally wait until 8mo or their adult weight is reached. But if they reach adult weight before 6mo, I still don't breed. I wait for 7mo, just to feel safe and right about it. 

3.5 mo is freakishly early. I much rather allow my animals to reach a mature body weight and everything before stressing them with breeding and birthing. It's like a 12yr human having babies just because 'in the long run' they will pop out more kids. Obviously, humans is totally more complicated, but general point is the same. Not always smarter and right to breed sooner, younger and more often. It becomes a welfare issue which easily becomes a huge debate between all breeders. I'm sure if humans were wild, being bred at 15-18 or so would be common. 

So, I don't want any fights about it. Just my own opinion, no one has to follow it nor agree with it.


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## feed grass (Jun 13, 2012)

secuono said:
			
		

> I personally wait until 8mo or their adult weight is reached. But if they reach adult weight before 6mo, I still don't breed. I wait for 7mo, just to feel safe and right about it.
> 
> 3.5 mo is freakishly early. I much rather allow my animals to reach a mature body weight and everything before stressing them with breeding and birthing. It's like a 12yr human having babies just because 'in the long run' they will pop out more kids. Obviously, humans is totally more complicated, but general point is the same. Not always smarter and right to breed sooner, younger and more often. It becomes a welfare issue which easily becomes a huge debate between all breeders. I'm sure if humans were wild, being bred at 15-18 or so would be common.
> 
> So, I don't want any fights about it. Just my own opinion, no one has to follow it nor agree with it.


At one point, I had the exact same thought-- that one extra birthing-- makes them more productive, and have more offspring... however, I was quickly proven wrong in both species-- in which the actual maternal ability, longevity, and milking ability was greater..  Whether that was genetic or not--  was proven not to be-- but directly linked to being a mother sooner than the rest...  

Just food for thought.


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## lovinglife (Jun 14, 2012)

I don't believe there is one right way, what works for some may not work for others, I know of a lady who breeds as young as they are able and has a very fast breed back schedule, she does this all year long and her does are happy, maintain condition, have large litters and are productive as long or longer than the ones that were not bred so young.  It works for me, I'm ok with it.  My rabbits are not pets, I have them for meat production period.  I don't care to feed them if they are not productive, but thats just me.  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with waiting, I just don't choose too, I am sharing my opinion, and opinion and thoughts were asked for.


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## SheepGirl (Jun 14, 2012)

feed grass said:
			
		

> pennylove said:
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Here's research to back that up.


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## pennylove (Jun 14, 2012)

feed grass said:
			
		

> secuono said:
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So, I'm curious, if you "knew" this to be true and had, as you clearly have, already formed a strong, articulated opinion on it. Why did you ask the question in the first place? In retrospect, it seems you might have been asking if anyone else was doing it, rather than should you do it, but the last part of your initial question, ". . . can you bump that up?" suggests you were looking for advice and opinions.

Personally, for my breeding animals, I'm not seeking the longest possible breeding longevity, nor the greatest possible productivity. The health of my rabbits and their wool are of vital importance to me. Breeding volume is secondary, at best. I can understand productivity and longevity goals for meat rabbits, though, and I admit I don't know a lot about breeding rabbits for meat. 

Interestingly, I've read that even in humans, incidences of secondary infertility (that is, infertility after at least one live birth) is reduced almost in perfect proportion to the mother's age at the first birth. Just like domesticated animals, and perhaps even wild animals, our overall fertility is improved by breeding earlier and more often. Like I said in my first post, though, that doesn't mean I'm going to support teenage pregnancy . . . overall, it might mean greater fertility during a lifetime, but the risk of health problems are complications in labor are also greatest in teen pregnancies (and pregnancies over 40, but that's a different topic: ). I think you can see how I would translate that to my rabbits, especially since I'm breeding for wool production, rather than meat.


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## feed grass (Jun 14, 2012)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> feed grass said:
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I didn't read it... but I will later.. I can say that I know Dave Thomas-- and he's one of the best sheep researchers in this country...


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## AZ Rabbits (Jun 17, 2012)

You can successfully breed NZW does at 4 months of age most of the time and have extremely healthy, productive does for several years. The bucks sometimes take 5 to 6 months, depending on the individual buck.

If you breed the does early, they stay healthier. If you wait, they can develop several problems including difficultly breeding later.

Other animals may differ, but rabbits are this way.


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## PinkFox (Jun 18, 2012)

breeding young may very well increase productivity in life...but i cant help but wonder what it does LONG term...surebreeding early may mean she produces more milk over her reproductive life, more babies ect...but what does it do to her Actual natural lifespan i wonder?  wonder if theres been any reaserch into what happens NOT related to giving birth/raising young...does it shorten their life any, are they more prone to certain illnesses once they are past reproductive age ect.

in dogs, females bred too young tend to be at a higher risk of certain cancers in their early senior years than dogs who dont have their first litter untill 2yrs old...

since this is "livestock" being researched i wonder if anyone doing the research realy cares beyond the livestocks "usefull" life but for me personally there not JUST baby machines so id rather wait an extra few weeks, give them a good start, let them reach adult weight ect...

if your rabbits are "just livestock" (same for any other species of livestock) breed em as early as they seem recptive...BUT keep in mind that we as a whole have no idea what breeding early might do to their systems in the long run Beyond whats been studied in terms of "production  numbers"

Each person has their own way of doing things...you do whats right for your situation...
noone is right or wrong when it comes to OPINION...


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## kfacres (Jun 18, 2012)

PinkFox said:
			
		

> breeding young may very well increase productivity in life...but i cant help but wonder what it does LONG term...surebreeding early may mean she produces more milk over her reproductive life, more babies ect...but what does it do to her Actual natural lifespan i wonder?  wonder if theres been any reaserch into what happens NOT related to giving birth/raising young...does it shorten their life any, are they more prone to certain illnesses once they are past reproductive age ect.
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> in dogs, females bred too young tend to be at a higher risk of certain cancers in their early senior years than dogs who dont have their first litter untill 2yrs old...
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Just curious- as this is an interesting topic-- but what's the average productive life of a rabbit?  3 years?

Many friends of mine- have always stated to me that if you overwork the bunny- she's very easy to replace.


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## PinkFox (Jun 19, 2012)

and THAT is my point....

noone seems to care about these animals once thier "usefull" lifeis over so we have absolutly no idea what these practices do long term...

My granmothers colony of rex wernt bred untill 7-8 months old...they each had 4-6 litters a year (depending on weather) and they consistently produced nice sized litters well past the average"usefull" life of most commercial rabbits...her average litter size was 8 kits for does under 3 yrs old, then the average dropped to 6 kits untill about 5 yrs old, then down usually to 3-4 kits...untill the does simply stopped producing at around 8yrs old.  her does then were left to live out thier life in her "retirement colony" her breeding girls consistently made it to 10+ years of age on little more than clover, grass and dandelions...
and she onlyhad to put down a mall number in her years due to illness or pain.  her does were all happy and quite active untill they died and thats how I personally feel it should be...just because there past their "usefull-ness" doesnt mean there worthless, i want my breeder buns to live FULL healthy happy lives for as long as they naturally can...and i just dont thing breeding a doe before shes prperly mature is the best way to ensure their healthy LONG term...(past the point of reproductive usefullness...)

that being said i do agree that waiting too long to breed is also detrimental due to pelvic fusing...so i generally breed my larger breed does at the 7 month mark, smaller breeds usually closer to 5 months (or when they are at a healthy adult weight)


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## kfacres (Jun 19, 2012)

PinkFox said:
			
		

> and THAT is my point....
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> noone seems to care about these animals once thier "usefull" lifeis over so we have absolutly no idea what these practices do long term...
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I think it all depends on your situation and goals.. if you have limited income, extra sized human mouths to feed, or very limited space-- all are reasons to dispose of those 'under par producing' breeders sooner.  After awhile, they become more of an expense- than a hobby, or meat maker.  

It mainly depends if you consider them a 'pet', a 'pet with benefits', or a head of livestock.?

Call me cruel- but i view my rabbits as another head of livestock around here, and I don't have money to just toss around to feed 'extras'.  heck, even the dogs and cats are considered livestock around here-- the cats get mice- and the dogs either protect the livestock, or herd them.  Heck, the border collie is one of the most expensive, spoiled things on the place-- she even rides in the brand new truck upfront with me-- but for the 2k I invested in getting her trained--- she's well worth it.  Still a livestock though, everything around here earns their keep.


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