# What next?  Bottle Jaw.  Really?



## Our7Wonders (Apr 28, 2011)

These goats are gonna be the death of me.  

So I go out to feed the goats today and as I'm petting Ariel I notice a huge freakin' double chin.  What the heck is that?

Jumped on the puter and sure enough it looks just like bottle jaw.  You might remember I was worried about anemia a while ago.  But the fecal came back clean then.

I went back out to the goaties and collected a fresh sample and took it to the vet immediately - clean!  How is that possible?  What else can cause bottle jaw?  Her eyelids are light pink - not white or gray, but not dark pink or red either.  Vet doesn't really have any advice.  I told him about what I'd read online for bottle jaw:  safegaurd for the first few days, then a stronger wormer, and red cell.  Because he had no other suggestion he said it sounded like a plan.  But again, clean fecal so I don't have a clue what to do next.  

I asked him what the possibilities of worms were with a clean fecal, like perhaps liver flukes.  He said he's never seen a case of liver fluke in our area and really doesn't ever see anything here but the occasional baber pole - but he said if it were BP we  should have seen signs in the fecal, especially since this is the the second fecal run in the past few weeks.  

Any ideas?  

I've got a call into the only other vet in the valley, haven't heard back from him though. 

At Big R their animal health specialist thought that perhaps toxicity could cause the edema.  She asked if she were eating something that may cause it.  But they don't go out on pasture at all - only what I bring to them.  They have free choice alfalfa/grass mix.  They get oats and barley in the stand with a little calf manna and BOSS.   If this is realated to the ongoing rough coat and hairloss issues we've had then it's been progressing since shortly after they got here.  They were given oats, barley, and BOSS where they lived before but their hay was from a different farm.  So hay is the only real feed variable.  Unless it's something else environmental , but I can't determine what. 

I still want to have blood work done, I was waiting until Jasmine was two months past kidding too so I could have them run together, but I don't want to wait any longer than necessary.  Next week Ariel will be two months past so I'll have blood drawn and a work up run then.  

In the mean time any suggestions?  Should I worm despite the clean fecal?  Should I start Red Cell tonight?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 28, 2011)

yes, I would do red cell, 6cc per 100 lbs, maybe even double that the first day, then every day for a week, if she is really anemic you might want to do an injectable iron shot one time. 

And you may wish to consider worming just to see if it helps with the anemia, I am not sure what to think about an anemic goat with no worms.  
'
I guess one could consider genetic condition a possibility, I just read a list of causes for bottle jaw, I remember barber pole worm and coccidiosis being on the list, but their were a few other things ont he list as well.  oh, here is the list:  

http://goat-link.com/content/view/15/111/


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## rockdoveranch (Apr 28, 2011)

Is the goat a baby?  Do goats get milk goiters like sheep?

Could it be a boil or snake bite.  Our lambs get bit all the time by poisonous snakes.

To be safe you could worm with Safeguard or a squirt of ivermectin.

Can you post a picture?


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 28, 2011)

no, she's not a baby - she's 4 and just kidded about 8 weeks ago.  Not a bite of any kind, it's not a mass at all.  It's a loose floppy area from her chin to her neck.   It's like the shape of her Roman nose, but upside down under her chin/neck - if that makes any sense at all.  I tried to take a picture but she wasn't very cooperative tonight - and any pic I could almost get had her long ears in the way so I gave up.

I've started red cell tonight and I picked up Safeguard for goats tonight at Big R.  I'm hoping to hear from the other vet in the  morning - maybe he'll have some insight.  Or maybe a few more will chime in with their opinions here.


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## Roll farms (Apr 28, 2011)

Rockdoveranch, the goat is an adult....She'd take more than a "squirt" of ivomec.  How much is in a squirt, exactly?  

Underdosing / using the wrong dewormer is exactly what's creating the resistance issues we see in dewormers.

07W, I mean no harm in saying this...but is there any chance your vet's not good at fecals???  I think getting a fecal from a 2nd vet is a good idea.

Some links I found...

http://www.extension.org/pages/35186/what-can-cause-edema-of-the-jaw-anemia-and-weight-loss-in-goats

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/PPT/dewormresist.pdf

http://www.ehow.com/how_5708572_naturally-treat-anemia-goats.html

Good luck figuring this out, and please keep us posted.


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## elevan (Apr 28, 2011)

Found this on another site, may be helpful:



> BottleJaw in the Goat
> Severe Intermandibular Edema
> 
> Seemingly healthy goat with good appetite continually gets thin and unthrifty - is anemic and begins to show signs of bottle jaw..Why?
> ...


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 28, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> 07W, I mean no harm in saying this...but is there any chance your vet's not good at fecals???  I think getting a fecal from a 2nd vet is a good idea


No offense taken at all.  An improperly run fecal has crossed my mind.  That clinic is the only large animal vet clinic in the area - they handle horses mostly, but I would think a fecal is a fecal, right?  I've read on here before that floats aren't the most accurate though - can't remember who posted it, but someone here said even their vet sends the fecals off.  I might call WADDL and see if I can send a fecal sample to them to run.

The other vet is a retired small animal vet, but he sorta had a passion for seeing large animals on the side - and now that he's semi-retired that's all he's seeing now.  He doesn't have an office though, just does farm calls.  I left a voicemail for him - we'll see if he get's back to me.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts - keep 'em coming if you have any more ideas.

Thanks!


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## helmstead (Apr 28, 2011)

I like elevan's post with the alternate issues leading to bottle jaw other than HC or other worm infestations.  The first thing that came to my mind is some iron absorbtion issue, then copper...I'd explore the Red Cell for a week and see if this doesn't help, and keep those other possibilities from elevan's post in mind.

When you have HC, the fecal slide will be smeared with eggs...especially if you have enough of a population to cause bottle jaw.


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

It's been less than two months since I copper bolused.  She's roughly 140 pounds and we used 1/2 a copasure capsule - so she *should* be good there.  But her coat is still so rough.  And it appears to be curling at the ends.  Sounds like copper right?  But could she be THAT copper defficient to need more than the standard dose?  Certainly don't want to overdose the copper.

I've got to try to find a place to have the hay tested.  I can't help but wonder if there isn't some sort of toxic weed or mold or something that I'm not catching in the hay.  I don't know that I'd recognize it if it were a problem anyway as the hay I bought this last year was the first hay I've ever dealt with.  

She had red cell tonight on her feed and I'll continue to give it to her for a week and re-evaluate at that time.  I would imagine it can take a long time to rebuild blood cells.  Hay tested and then I'll have blood work ran on her and see if I can't find some answers.  

It appears that I may have stumbled across the world's strangest goats.  I keep having issues that are not the every-day-run-of-the-mill issues.  I know goats love to keep you guessing, but this is getting to be a little much!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 29, 2011)

I had a doe swell up around the jaw one day.  After totally panicking about bottle jaw I realized that the swelling was most severe around the side of her face and nostril... turns out she'd gotten stung by a bee while browsing and with a little benadryl was right back to normal after about 24 hours.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 29, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> Roll farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My goat vet no longer does them in house.  He believes that without a centrifuge that results can be inaccurate and misleading.  The vet I work for still does them at the clinic, but as a small animal vet they are really only running tests on house pets.  I do my routine fecals at work and then if someone's been ill I've had my goat vet send them to the lab.  I haven't had any discrepancies yet, but if I were dealing with an illness I'd want to rule out inaccuracy as a possibility.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 29, 2011)

If I remember correctly you do not worm, unless the fecal comes back positive, You had to go get wormer, so she hasn't been wormed for a very long time.

She is 8 weeks after kidding.

It is spring time.

My guess is that she has worms. 

safeqaurd may not be strong enough to help, but if you choose to use it don't under dose and treat for 3 days in a row. 

If it was lung worms I would think at some point you would be seeing a cough. but don't lung worms need to be treated with Ivermectin shots? Just saying, safegaurd may not help with this.


My last bottle jaw doe, received, the strongest wormer I had Day 1 and then was wormed with another wormer  on Day 2,3, and 4 and then was treated for Cocci days 5 through 10, It was day 7 before she was doing a lot better, but she was sicker than your doe is right now.


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## aggieterpkatie (Apr 29, 2011)

FWIW, my doe didn't have a bad haircoat until I gave her copper this year. Hopefully she'll shed out soon, because it is rough and curly.


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## rockdoveranch (Apr 29, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Rockdoveranch, the goat is an adult....She'd take more than a "squirt" of ivomec.  How much is in a squirt, exactly?
> 
> Underdosing / using the wrong dewormer is exactly what's creating the resistance issues we see in dewormers.


I used the term squirt because this is what we do, "squirt" the ivermectin down their throats. 

Hair sheep are pretty resistant to internal parasites.  We only worm if we see signs of bottle jaw and then it is usually Safeguard pellets in with their feed.  The amount goes by the overall weight of the sheep in each herd.  When we use ivermectin we go by the weight of the lamb or sheep.  My husband does the math.  Math was never my thing.

After one worming the affected sheep's "jaw" always goes back to normal in just a matter of hours, but we dose again in 10 days.  

Our dogs are given ivermectin for heartworm preventative.  We do not buy the preventative prescription from the vet.

We worm our 200+ homing pigeons with ivermectin.  Good stuff.


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## elevan (Apr 29, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> It's been less than two months since I copper bolused.  She's roughly 140 pounds and we used 1/2 a copasure capsule - so she *should* be good there.  But her coat is still so rough.  And it appears to be curling at the ends.  Sounds like copper right?  But could she be THAT copper defficient to need more than the standard dose?  Certainly don't want to overdose the copper.


Copper deficiency - My Copasure bottle says 1 capsule for 150-500#...that's a lot of play...if you only gave a 1/2 capsule 2 months ago, I think you should be safe to give more.  Some areas are recommended to give 1x a year, some twice and some quarterly...sometimes more.  It depends on your area's level of deficiency.

Coccidiosis, - She's older than normally expected for this, but you never know unless you test for it...

Bracken fern poisoning - Where you live, this may be a possibility with new spring growth...are you able to run this one out?

Inadequate protein synthesis due to liver damage - I'm guessing a simple blood test run by your vet should be able to rule this one out...

Mycotoxins (a toxin produced by an organism of the fungus family, which includes mushrooms, molds and yeasts.) - I'm not really sure what to do with this one?  Hopefully someone else can add input or I'll look it up later...

Stomach worms especially Barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus ) - I would get a second opinion on this one as others have suggested, just in case the first 2 were inaccurately done.

Johnes Disease - blood test...would save this for last though as it would be the lowest on my list of suspects in bottle jaw personally.

Liver Fluke - you should definitely have seen / heard some coughing with this one...keep an eye out for it just in case as I understand that they can have it for a little while before coughing develops.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 29, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> So I go out to feed the goats today and as I'm petting Ariel I notice a huge freakin' double chin.  What the heck is that?
> 
> Jumped on the puter and sure enough it looks just like bottle jaw.
> ...
> ...


First thing to understand is the 'jaw' part of bottlejaw..  Why the jaw??  Well, because most goats that encounter worms do so on pasture, which means they're grazing all day long..  When they're grazing, their heads are down, so fluid ends up collecting around their neck/jaw area simply because it's lower to the ground..

Your goats don't graze, though...they eat hay.  About 99% of the folks I know who feed hay throw it in a feeder that's up off the ground a bit..  Soooo...why would this goat have fluid collecting around her *neck* if she's eating hay from a feeder -- not grass from a pasture.

Something's not right here.

I'm thinking something else is up..  Snakebite?  Wasp sting?  Weird, incidental abcess of some kind?  I wouldn't necessarily *rule out* bottlejaw, of course, but I wouldn't take anything else off the table either..

ETA:  The fact that your goats aren't on pasture could also explain why you're seeing clean fecals..  Barberpoles *require* grass to propagate.  No grass?...no barberpoles.  No barberpoles?...well, the possibility of this being bottlejaw seems to keep getting less and less likely..  In my mind, anyway.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 29, 2011)

how much hay are your goats eating off the ground?
How high is your hay feeder?


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

That makes sense on the grazing - they don't graze at all.  And their feeder is mounted up on a wall - the doe that I'm dealing with acutally prefers to stand on her back two legs to eat with her head up quite high, picking from the top of the feeder.  

The other vet called me today, and he basically said the same thing that cmjust0 said.  In a dry lot we run a much less chance of barber pole worms, so the clean fecals are not surprising at all.  We live in Washington - but not on the wet side of the state.  I'm more in a desert region - I don't get wet muddy ground - EVER.  I've NEVER seen a snail or a slug here - don't liver flukes need some sort of snail as a carrier?  If so, then it's not likely our issue.  My does aren't coughing at all so lung worm is not likely.  And if this is a progression of all our other symptoms we're looking at January as our starting point.  That's a long time to go on a worm load without a dead goat.

Despite all that, the vet feels that worming would be prudent, just in case.  I agree we need to start somewhere but I have to admit this goes againt my gut feeling.  I'm not opposed to worming them IF they need it - but they have never had a chemical wormer and at this point we're not convinced they need it.  But it is a place to start I guess. 

I really don't think it's a bite or a sting - it wasn't centralized, so to speak.  And there was no lump or bump anywhere that I could feel.  It's was all soft and quite floppy.  Really, it looked like she had been deflated there.  Like when someone that was once rather large lost alot of weight in their face - a large double chin hanging.   

I'm also calling around today to see if I can get our hay tested somewhere.  There's this nagging feeling that it all may have something to do with it - I realize it's not likely - but I can't help but wonder.  

It never fails that my issues present nearing a weekend.  Just once it would be nice to start on a Monday, with plenty of week to work with!


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> FWIW, my doe didn't have a bad haircoat until I gave her copper this year. Hopefully she'll shed out soon, because it is rough and curly.


That's interesting.  Her coat did seem to get worse after we gave copper.  Her skin and massive dander got better within just a week or two - but the coat hasn't improved at all.  BUT - the newer shorter hair that's not falling out looks pretty good.  Those areas look like I've shaved her and their somewhat soft.  I'm hoping once all the older stuff sheds off that she'll be left with a nice looking coat.


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## elevan (Apr 29, 2011)

Our7Wonders said:
			
		

> That makes sense on the grazing - they don't graze at all.  And their feeder is mounted up on a wall - the doe that I'm dealing with acutally prefers to stand on her back two legs to eat with her head up quite high, picking from the top of the feeder.
> 
> The other vet called me today, and he basically said the same thing that cmjust0 said.  In a dry lot we run a much less chance of barber pole worms, so the clean fecals are not surprising at all.  We live in Washington - but not on the wet side of the state.  I'm more in a desert region - I don't get wet muddy ground - EVER.  I've NEVER seen a snail or a slug here - don't liver flukes need some sort of snail as a carrier?  If so, then it's not likely our issue.  My does aren't coughing at all so lung worm is not likely.  And if this is a progression of all our other symptoms we're looking at January as our starting point.  That's a long time to go on a worm load without a dead goat.
> 
> ...


I've bolded what I still see as a possible reason here:


*Copper deficiency - Still a possibility*

Coccidiosis, - Not likely given more than one reason

Bracken fern poisoning - Not possible since they don't browse

*Inadequate protein synthesis due to liver damage - Still a possibility*

*Mycotoxins (a toxin produced by an organism of the fungus family, which includes mushrooms, molds and yeasts.) - I'm not really sure what to do with this one?  Hopefully someone else can add input or I'll look it up later...hmm...you keep going back to your hay as a possible cause, so this could be it...*

Stomach worms especially Barberpole worm (Haemonchus contortus ) - Not likely...and I wouldn't worm just to be safe when conditions and fecals don't warrant it.

_*Johnes Disease - blood test...would save this for last though as it would be the lowest on my list of suspects in bottle jaw personally...still a possibility*
_
Liver Fluke - Needs a snail host and wet conditions...no longer a possiblity


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

Thanks Elevan - all things to look into for sure.  

I called around looking for a place to test my hay.  The only local place I could find only checks for protein content.  Then I found another place then can run a nutritional analysis, but they not able to check for toxins, which is what I was most concerned about.  And by the time I shipped it and paid for the testing I would be pretty close to the cost of another ton of hay - and still likely not closer to any answers.   

Her neck looks better today - it's still there but not as big as it was yesterday afternoon.  We'll see how she progresses through the day today.  And we'll have the vet out next week to draw blood for testing - in addition to the panel we'll also have CAE and Johnne's tests done just to rule out all possibilities.

I appreciate everyone's insight. Thanks much!


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## cmjust0 (Apr 29, 2011)

Floppy?..  Edema generally isn't floppy...edema is kinda semi-hard, but spongy.  Like, you can usually press your thumb into edema and leave an imprint.

I've never personally had a case of bottlejaw (my time's coming -- don't worry) so I don't *know* that to be true for bottlejaw specifically...but that's generally how edema works.

Anybody here ever pressed their thumb into the swelling of a known bottlejaw case to see if it leaves an indentation??


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 29, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Floppy?..  Edema generally isn't floppy...edema is kinda semi-hard, but spongy.  Like, you can usually press your thumb into edema and leave an imprint.
> 
> I've never personally had a case of bottlejaw (my time's coming -- don't worry) so I don't *know* that to be true for bottlejaw specifically...but that's generally how edema works.
> 
> Anybody here ever pressed their thumb into the swelling of a known bottlejaw case to see if it leaves an indentation??


I've got the one standing in my back yard, right now, and i could see how someone could discribe it as floppy, At first it looked filled in and puffy, but as the swelling went down it left a floppy-loose skin look for a couple days. But she was pretty bad to begin with.


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

I wouldn't call what I saw spongey - it was pretty loose.  It wasn't firm by any means.  There's a link here that shows photos similar to what she looked like:

http://www.barnonemeatgoats.com/wormsorno.html

She was pretty close to the second picture - the one of the brown goat with horns.  Hers may not have been quite that large, but pretty close.  It is better today.  Not gone, but much better.  

I really am at a loss.  And I hate just throwing meds at her in the hopes that something might work.  If they were meds that remotely matched symptoms it would be one thing.


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

Hmmm.

Just had a possible light bulb moment.

This is my goat that is my neurotic screamer.  She wears the bark collar - and it's been working to mellow her out.  Collar has to be worn pretty snug on the neck - I didn't even think about the collar causing the swelling - a possibility?  It's not stangle tight - she's able to eat and chew cud and all that.  She's been wearing it for 10-12 hours during the day - it's off all night.  

I didn't put her collar on her today.  She still had some swelling this morning, though it was much better than yesterday.  I'll check her neck in a few hours and see how she looks.  

It would be great if this wasn't bottle jaw after all - but it's odd that after 4 weeks of wearing it she just suddenly swelled up.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 29, 2011)

Didn't you say she was looking anemic?


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 29, 2011)

Yes, but she's been looking anemic to me for a while now.  Just before she kidded I had a fecal run to make sure she wasn't wormy.  Clean.  I started her on red cell for about a week and then she kidded  I had read that copper imbalance can cause anemia so I gave copasure the day after kidding.  I was hoping that alone would turn things around.  She pinked up a little - though she hasn't ever gotten to the deep pink stage that she should be at.  

Her brittle coat issues continued.  At three weeks post kidding I had another fecal run just to make sure we didn't get a worm bloom.  Clean.

Then yesterday with the swelling I immediately checked her eyelids.  Pale pink.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 29, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Coccidiosis, - She's older than normally expected for this, but you never know unless you test for it...


Cocci would have showed up on the fecal.  

I'm with cm, I'm not entirely convinced it's worms.  While my goat vet DID say that there is room for error with a fecal, unless your vet is a complete idiot there is no way that a fecal would come back CLEAN and the goat would have such a high load as to cause bottle jaw.  That I'm not buying.  

Seriously, my goat looked just like she had bottle jaw.  Her face was swollen all along the muzzle, cheek, and jaw line just like the brown goat in the link you posted.  Except that around her nostril was where it got started then kept getting worse.  If I hadn't seen her until after the rest of her face had puffed up I'd have sworn it was bottle jaw.  As it was I still had a hard time talking myself out of it!  And I saw it puff up!  If you haven't given her benadryl yet I'd do so.  I don't see where it could hurt and it had a rapid effect on my doe's face.


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## elevan (Apr 29, 2011)

Can you get a couple of bales of hay from a new source? Separate her and feed her the new hay...if it's your current batch of hay, she should clear up very quickly.

If it's an allergic reaction...which is a possibility...you'd know after giving benadryl within an hour or two cause the swelling should completely go away.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 29, 2011)

It took about 24 hours for my doe's swelling to subside completely after giving benadryl.  But it did start to go down right away.


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## Kikosrule (Jun 5, 2011)

I am going to refresh this thread w/ a problem i am having.  I have a kiko doe w/ bottle jaw.  Normal poop, eating, drinking, doing everything a goat should.  Color is good.  Her coat is mildly shaggy, like when they drop their winter coat.   Gave her Zymectin gold, swelling went way down.  Couple days later it was back again.  Gave her safe-guard.  Swelling went WAY down, almost completely.  Well just went out and she is swelled up again.  AHHHHH!  Any ideas?  She does get a nibble of my guard dogs food from time to time but I try to distract her until the dog is finished.  The kicker is that she may be pregnant.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 6, 2011)

The times when you've noticed that the swelling was down...were those morning check-ups, by any chance?


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## rockdoveranch (Jun 6, 2011)

Kikosrule said:
			
		

> I am going to refresh this thread w/ a problem i am having.  I have a kiko doe w/ bottle jaw.  Normal poop, eating, drinking, doing everything a goat should.  Color is good.  Her coat is mildly shaggy, like when they drop their winter coat.   Gave her Zymectin gold, swelling went way down.  Couple days later it was back again.  Gave her safe-guard.  Swelling went WAY down, almost completely.  Well just went out and she is swelled up again.  AHHHHH!  Any ideas?  She does get a nibble of my guard dogs food from time to time but I try to distract her until the dog is finished.  The kicker is that she may be pregnant.


On the rare occasion that we have had a sheep with bottle jaw whose swelling did not go away over night we have given them ivermectin 1% by mouth the next day.  The dose goes by weight.

We do not worm our sheep until we see signs of bottle jaw.  When we do we worm them twice about 10 days apart.  And we worm with SafeGuard.  We alternate with something else, but I cannot remember the drug name.

I am assuming you are using the Zymectin Gold paste wormer that is for horses.  Perhaps the paste dosage you gave your goat was not enough.


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## Kikosrule (Jun 6, 2011)

There isn't really a particular time it is worse.  If anything the evening is when it is worse.  I am told that is because the head is down eating all day.


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## cmjust0 (Jun 8, 2011)

Kikosrule said:
			
		

> There isn't really a particular time it is worse.  If anything the evening is when it is worse.  I am told that is because the head is down eating all day.


Yeah, that's what I was gonna say.. It's why I asked if the goat looked better during morning checkups..

I've seen several times where people post that they treat a bottlejaw goat with dewormer and red cell and stuff in the evening, then check it first thing and the next morning and get all excited when the goat looks better..  Then they're baffled that evening when the goat unfortunately comes back to the barn with swelling again.

Having said that, you obviously know what to look for with regard to times of day, eating habits, etc., so it's just a matter of recurring bottlejaw..


Ok, so...what dosages did you give on the dewormers she's already gotten??


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## Kikosrule (Jun 8, 2011)

I give about a quarter size or a little larger.  I was giving a smaller amount but was told to give her a larger amount since she must have a larger worm load. I gave a b shot, pro-bios, and an iron drench as well.  I am going to worm her again today even though her jaw isn't swelled. (at least it wasn't the last time I looked)    Anyone want to buy a Kiko?


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## cmjust0 (Jun 8, 2011)

> I give about a quarter size or a little larger.


Literally no clue what that means.  A quarter of what?  Or, are you saying a quarter-sized dollop of paste?  If so, was it as thin as a quarter, or...???  And I'm guessing this means the safe-guard was paste too, right?

Yanno, there are those out there who will tell you that since those paste meds are mixed for horses and are meant to be given to the horse in *one big dose* they're not necessarily mixed proportionately throughout the tube..  Which is to say, you could potentially be giving (insert amount here) of nothing but flavored carrier over and over and over and then BAM -- all the med at once because it was hiding at the back of the tube.

Anyway...what we kinda need to know in order to know anything is *how much actual medication* the animal got..  Would be awesome if you could figure out how many mg's of medication is in a certain amount of the paste, then figure out how much paste you gave, so that we'd know how many mg's the animal got with a reasonable degree of certainty..

And if you're sitting there going "Now how am I supposed to figure all that out?" then I'd seriously reconsider your current deworming product choices..  Afterall, if the type of med and method of administration prevent your ability to know how much medication is actually being administered...well, that's not great.

I'm just sayin.


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## aggieterpkatie (Jun 8, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Yanno, there are those out there who will tell you that since those paste meds are mixed for horses and are meant to be given to the horse in *one big dose* they're not necessarily mixed proportionately throughout the tube..  Which is to say, you could potentially be giving (insert amount here) of nothing but flavored carrier over and over and over and then BAM -- all the med at once because it was hiding at the back of the tube.


Well those people would be wrong because horse deworming pastes are put in a tube that contains a dial for getting proper dosages.  You don't just give a horse the whole tube, it's done by weight.


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## Kikosrule (Jun 8, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> cmjust0 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats exactly what I was going to say.  The whole medicine world is one big sham.  I am not going to buy the goat product that only contains 4mls of a 10% paste when I can purchase the horse/cattle tube (the big dog) for a 1/4 of the cost.  As far as the amount, I am using safe guard for horse and cattle.  If you have used the product before you know it is a toothpaste consistency.  The amount I squeeze out in about the size of a quarter.... twenty five cents kind of quarter.  On my fingers.  I have small hands so I am able to stick the entire amount onto the roof of their mouth.    This is the marking system on my tube of wormer. I put the stopper where I usually put it to dispense the amount I use.


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## Kenneth Flippen (Jun 12, 2011)

While this is a little late and although I don't have a answer to your problem me and my wife just finished up a vet assisting class and are currently taking the next step to better our husbandry skills  we did several fecal exams one of them was on a horse which we didn't see but was told that it showed some serious signs of parasite load there were 12 different fecals done on the same pile of poo only 2 showed a parasite she said fecals don't always show parasites even though they are there because such a small amount is used this was backed up by saying different universities teach differently bit it made sense to me.

I have had one case of bottle jaw If I remember correctly the barber pole worm is a blood sucking parasite leaving wounds in the veins allowing blood to leak out under the skin therefore going to the lowest part of the body being the head due to grazing not so much the legs as the skin is tighter than the rest of the body swelling should appear worse in the evening after a day of grazing compared to morning after resting all night may have went down some my doe was 150# I tried for weeks to get her over it finally gave up and give her 5cc of ivermectin 1% for 5 days under the skin followed up by 3 days of safeguard probably considered a little drastic by some but nothing else was working she hasn't had it sense or showed any signs of other worms

This goat wasn't grazing if I remember right so as someone stated before bottle jaw don't make sense I have hears of shocking collars damaging dogs if that was the cause try rotating it to where it'll shock in a different spot instead of the same place qhch may be difficult because the box will always go to the bottom due its weight

                                   Kenneth Flippen

Feel free to correct me always willing to learn


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## Our7Wonders (Jun 13, 2011)

Yes, we've since assumed it was the collar.  Pity too, because it was helping her annoying yelling.  Once it was off for two days in a row all swelling/edema was gone.  Now she's her annoying screamy self.  I'll be selling her this fall.  She still has her rough coat, and pale pink eyelids.  Pink, but not a good vibrant pink like it should be.  But no worms - on several different fecals ran now.  Go figure.

I've determined it's my hay.  So glad the new hay season is upon us!  I've got some alfalfa mix coming soon.  Unfortunately it's first cut, but healthy and nutritious is all I really care about right now.  My last hay looked good and smelled good, but I really don't think it was.  My new hay is raised by friends of mine, it hasn't been sprayed with pesticides or chemical fertilizers and I'm hoping it makes a dramatic difference in my goats.


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## mossyStone (Jun 13, 2011)

I am glad you have found the problem.... I had to put a collar on one of mine... It has been off for a week now and he is still not yelling...but it will go back on if he starts up again...


I can't wait to get new hay in, this is garbage out here now, and hard to find over here, my hay guy has been out for over a month, waiting to harvest his frist cutting....


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