# Jake's Kindling Thread



## JakeM

Yes, I can finally make this thread! Yesterday (June 4) Snow (broken chocolate Havana) had her second litter. 5 little ones, 1 broken black, 2 broken chocolate, and 2 solid black. She gave birth right on day 31, which she did last time.







Then today (June 5), I went out to check on Snow and the babies as well as three other does who are due. Well, one had pulled a whole nest of fur, but had nothing, so I expected them to be born today. Went out four hours later and Aida (chocolate Havana) gave birth to her first litter! She had 7! Biggest litter I've had so far. 6 chocolate and 1 black, all solid. She also gave birth on day 31.






This has been some of the best couple of days. I got two does left to kindle and day 31 is Sunday, so just gotta get through two 9-hour shifts this weekend and I should have babies!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: Aida only had 7, miscounted. Already changed in paragraph.


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## Hens and Roos

Congrats that's great!


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## JakeM

It' been awhile since I've been on here.

To catch you up on what's happened:
On June 7 at about 8:30, another doe gave birth. She had 2, but they were dead when I found them (first time mom). One had been punctured in the stomach, the other was (in my words) a baby hippo. 3 times the normal size and full of liquid. It was really weird, first time I've ever seen it.

On some more bad news, 3 of Aida's kits died due to escaping the nest box and chilling. On the plus side, my mom saved a fourth one that had escaped and threw it in with Snow where it is thriving, but still smaller than the rest. Also, my miscount was a miscount, so Aida really did have 8 babies. 

So, if you're keeping track, Snow kindled 5 and added a foster so she is caring for 6 now. Aida kindled 8, lost 3 to chill and 1 to fostering so she is caring for 4. All are fat and healthy. And Snow's babies have finally opened their eyes!


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## samssimonsays

Awesome! congrats on the babies!!!! Sorry about the losses but so glad the rest are thriving.


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## mikiz

JakeM said:


> It' been awhile since I've been on here.
> 
> To catch you up on what's happened:
> On June 7 at about 8:30, another doe gave birth. She had 2, but they were dead when I found them (first time mom). One had been punctured in the stomach, the other was (in my words) a baby hippo. 3 times the normal size and full of liquid. It was really weird, first time I've ever seen it.



The "hippo" baby is what they term a water baby, the medical term is "anasarca" or generalised edema (swelling) https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anasarca
It happens a lot in puppies.
I'm sorry for your losses


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## JakeM

Thank you mikiz for the information.

So, for some updates. Out of the 10 kits that survived after the growing fur (all 10 made it to 4 months), I retained 3. 1 black buck, 1 chocolate buck, and 1 doe. Not sure who the better buck is, and not sure which chocolate I want to keep. So I'm letting them all grow up a bit more (they'll be 6 months (senior show age) in 2 months) so I can get a better idea of who has the most potential, show and breeding wise.

At a local-ish show (45 minute drive) I got Best Opposite of Breed (BOSB) in Shows A and B with the same chocolate doe, so she has definitely proven her worth to me (already knew she was good, just wasn't sure _how_ good). Picked up a new doe while I was there; I love her! Amazing type, great fur, just needs to grow up (currently 4 months).

At a very much not local show (3 hour drive) I picked up another doe that is probably the best in my barn now (but she has to grow up to (5 months)). She got me BOB and into BIS for youth, but didn't get it (I'm still happy, though).

Anyways, back to the reason this thread exists.

Back in May, I picked up a blue doe. This is the first blue doe in my area in quite some time. Well, this morning (or last night) she kindled! She had 6 black kits who all seem to be doing fine. This is her first litter and I honestly expected to find one dead (we are getting highs of about 50 degrees and lows of 30 degrees right now). She was bred to a black (who also carries chocolate), so these babies carry some colorful backgrounds and will hopefully get me lilacs within another 2 generations.

Without further ado, the babies!


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## mikiz

Congrats on the wins at show! 
Glad to hear the others are all doing well, and YAY BABIES


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## Baymule

I kept rabbits many years ago. I remember the excitement over the nest full of babies. I love seeing the pictures you posted, the babies are so cute! Congrats on the fine litters!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Congratulations on the show successes and baby bunnies!! Don't you just  baby bunnies?!


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## Hens and Roos

Congrats on both the wins and the new kits!


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## JakeM

Thanks everyone. A quick update on the litter. Something odd but really cool has happened. Today I discovered that there is at least one blue kit in the litter! It's really cool because now it won't take me two generations to get more blues. You can actually see one in my first pic; there is a difference between a couple kits.

BUT, it's really odd because the father is a black out of a black buck and chocolate doe. To add to this, the black grandsire (who I know carries chocolate) is out of blacks and the chocolate doe is out of a black and chocolate. Black is very dominant in the pedigree to shorten things up. Now, there was ONE blue in the bucks background, about 4 generations back. So, this means that somehow, this blue's genes managed to get passed down through 4 generations to my buck. It's just really fascinating to me and really exciting.

If anyone is confused, let me know and I'll clarify.


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## Hens and Roos

That's awesome


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## JakeM

Another update, mostly just to rant about kits because they do 2 things that drive me insane. 
1) Switching gender on me (sex them one day, a week later they've all swapped to the other one).

2) My rant is about their color. My blues, which I'm still convinced they're blue based on their skin color, are driving me insane. They have their fur in now, which apparently means they all get to look alike now-black.

I checked on them at 10 am on 11/1 (technically yesterday as it's 1 am as I'm typing this -night owl here) and their was defiantly a distinction still, made more obvious in direct sunlight (thank you south-facing windows). Well, I had our local rabbit club's meeting today, so I thought I'd snap a couple more pics to show a couple people. I went out to take the pictures, took the nest box out, got them under a light (sun was starting to set so no more direct sun), and pulled two out. With the naked eye, you could barely see a difference in color. I switched the pair a couple times cause I thought I kept pulling out two blues or the two blacks. Finally I found a pair with enough distinction that I could take a picture. Well, my camera (although is really nice and takes amazing quality pictures) took a picture that you couldn't even tell a difference in the two kits unless you looked at where their fur was shiny. Then, on top of that, the ones that were still in the nest box in the background, there was a difference that you could see. So maybe I did grab 2 blacks. I don't know. Last time I counted though, I had 4 blues and 2 blacks.

I love but hate this stage for kits (they're just so vulnerable and helpless, and tricksters). I can't wait for them to start hopping around, then at least their fur will be long enough to definitively tell which variety they are.

End Rant.

I'll post more pics within a couple days.


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## Shorty

I always count them wrong the first time. Even if I take them out and count them some how I miss one or have an extra they move so much the little stinkers


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## promiseacres

Fun figuring out sex, though by 10 to 14 d I can usually tell. As for color, the blues are "generally" easy to tell... at least mine are. But you never know. Hope you get your blues!


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## Bunnylady

JakeM said:


> * Black is very dominant in the pedigree to shorten things up. *
> 
> If anyone is confused, let me know and I'll clarify.



I'm sorry, Jake, but I'm afraid that you are the one who is confused - there is no such thing as "very dominant." In genetics, the term "dominant" just means that if the gene is present, you will see whatever it codes for; it has nothing to do with how often it appears in the gene pool or how likely it is to be inherited. 

In the D-series, there are two possible genes - D (full color) and d (dilute). D shows complete dominance, meaning that you can't tell whether a rabbit has two copies of the dominant gene (DD) or one copy of the dominant and one of the recessive (Dd), because they look exactly the same. Dilute (d) is recessive; in a situation of complete dominance, the only way you will see the recessive is if the rabbit inherited the gene for it from both parents (dd). 

Blue is the dilute version of Black. In order for a rabbit to be a Blue, it must inherit the gene for it (d) from both of its parents. If you breed two Blue rabbits together, you will never get Blacks, because the only genes of the D series that a Blue rabbit has are dilute genes (dd). 

Just looking at a Black rabbit, you can't tell whether it is DD or Dd - they look exactly alike. The only way you can be _sure_ that a Black rabbit has a dilute gene (d) is if it has a Blue parent, or it has Blue babies. 

In a rabbit that is heterozygous (has one gene of two different types), each gene has an equal chance of getting inherited. If you are breeding a rabbit that is Dd, each offspring of that rabbit has a 50% chance of getting the D, and a 50% chance of getting the d. The odds are exactly like flipping a coin. But even though the chances of getting "heads" or "tails" is 50/50, there is no guarantee that you will get "heads" one time and "tails" the next. If you are breeding a heterozygote, though the odds of each gene getting passed along are 50/50, that doesn't mean that half of the offspring will inherit the one gene, and half the other. Who inherits which form is completely random; if you did the cross enough times to get thousands of offspring, the results would be close to half and half, but in a smaller sample group, you could see one gene pop up much more often than the other. It doesn't mean that the gene is "stronger," it's just dumb luck. 

If I breed a homozygous Black (DD) to a Blue (dd), all of the offspring will be heterozygous Blacks (Dd); they will look exactly like homozygous Blacks. If I breed one of those heterozygous Blacks (Dd) to a homozygous Black (DD), some of the offspring will be DD, and some Dd, but I will have no idea which are which. If I breed one of these Blacks to anything and get even_ one_ Blue baby, I will know that the Black parent had to be Dd, because the only way for a baby to be Blue is if it inherited the dilute (d) from both of its parents. If I breed two Blacks together repeatedly and never get any Blue babies, I can't rule out the possibility that_ one_ parent or the other has a dilute gene, though if_ both _parents had a dilute gene,  it would be pretty unlikely to get dozens of offspring and none of them be Blues. Recessive genes can get passed along unseen for generations, until the rabbit gets bred to another rabbit with the same recessive gene and some babies inherit it from both parents.

(A long time ago, I bought a Netherland Dwarf rabbit that was some odd combination - Sable Point Marten, or something. Everything on its pedigree was a Chestnut. Obviously, a whole bunch of recessives were lurking in that gene pool, and all came together in this one rabbit!).

If you have a recessive color on the pedigree, there is some chance that the gene for it got inherited by your rabbit. The closer it is to your rabbit, the higher the likelihood, but you can't completely rule it out (unless you have something even more recessive between that rabbit and yours -  a Chinchilla grandparent that fathered a REW parent, for example). If you don't have any offspring that are the recessive color, that doesn't necessarily mean that your rabbit doesn't have the recessive gene, it just means that you probably didn't happen to breed it to another rabbit that had the recessive gene. 

Your Black buck had a Blue ancestor. It might impress you to think that the dilute gene has been lurking unseen for 4 generations before surfacing again, but if you knew that he had a Blue brother, and a Blue aunt, would you be equally impressed? Remember, the pedigree only shows the direct ancestors; it doesn't give you any information about the other relatives. It could be that the extended family tree of your buck is lousy with Blues, they just don't happen to be his direct ancestors.

But though Blue is a deeper shade of gray in the Havana than it is in most rabbits, it's still considerably lighter than Black. Your kits are what, 5 days old now? I'd think it would be easy to tell Blacks from Blues at this age.


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## mikiz

I think he means the ped is black heavy, not that it's more or less dominant than another gene.


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## Bunnylady

mikiz said:


> I think he means the ped is black heavy, not that it's more or less dominant than another gene.



Well, I can't say for Jake, but it's exactly what a lot of people seem to think. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say something like, "I bred this rabbit to this rabbit and the black  must be really dominant in this line because almost everything I got from them was black." The way he phrased it sounded like he is making the same mistake, that of assuming that somehow the genes are battling to get inherited.


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## mikiz

Haha fair enough, at least the explanation is there now, good of you to sit and write it all out, you must get tired of explaining sometimes 
I find it's really hard to get anything BUT black if you don't know what your genetics are, and even when you do 9 times out of 10 you'll work their combinations out to get black anyway!

I do find it hard to think that you wouldn't easily be able to tell blue from black when they have fur @JakeM the black/not black wouldn't be seal would it?


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## JakeM

@Bunnylady @mikiz 

mikiz is correct, I did mean that the pedigree is black heavy. As a zoology student, I have a working knowledge of genetics and how they are passed, so I understand that genes can't be 'very dominant'. Thank you for the information though.
Also, I wasn't so much asking if others were confused because they don't know how genes work, but more so if they were confuse because of my wording. I don't always use the right term/phrase or there could be a better one than what I chose, but you learn and move on.


On to some great news, though!
Yesterday, around 5pm, I went out to check on the rabbits/give water to the mom again. Well, I checked on a mom who is due tomorrow and they had pulled fur! Granted it wasn't a lot, but fur is fur. So I naturally got super excited. Well, then I had to go to a meeting at 7, and that didn't finish until 9:30, so I didn't get home until 10... but I checked on the moms again and this time there were new babies!
These 6 little kits are out of Aida (chocolate) and Recluse (broken black who carries chocolate). I ended up with 3 broken black, 2 solid chocolate, and 1 solid black (Now hopefully no one changes colors on me).






Update on the black/blue litter: they are growing quickly, just as kits should along with sleeping almost all the time.


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## Bunnylady

Congrats on the new litter!

I, too, worry about confusing people. Most of the time,  I try to keep my posts short  (I don't usually have the time to read long posts, and I figure  that's true with most other folks, too). But then I wonder if by keeping it brief,  did I skip over something important? Did I assume too much? I know I often use the word  "gene" when I should say "allele," but I know that even people that know the  "jargon "  can get lost in it sometimes.


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## mikiz

Oh how cute is that little chocolate bum!
Congrats on more babies!!


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## samssimonsays

Congrats on the new babies! Woo hoo!


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## JakeM

Well, this post is unfortunately about the sad side of rabbit raising. 

Last night after I got home from school (around 10pm) I went out to check the babies. All seemed well until I counted them and one was missing-one of the broken blacks. I looked everywhere and could not for the life of me find it. So I was just hoping I was tired and it was still in the box.

This morning before work I went to check babies (around 9am). And all of the babies were on the floor or the wire. I lost the whole litter. I freaked out a bit at this. Since I had to go to work I took the nest box, put the bodies in it, and left it to take care of later.

So tonight I got home from work (about 5pm) to do chores. Well, I was cleaning out some litter trays and on my way back into the barn (poop pile outside), I saw what I thought was a mouse. Nope! The missing kit, there on the floor, dead of course. 

After so many successful litters, this is only the second time I've lost a whole litter. So for everyone out there, rabbit raising is not easy and do your research before you get into them. I'm 9 years into this and surprises (happy and sad) still happen.


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## Hens and Roos

so sorry


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## mikiz

so sorry you lost the litter, it's never nice, especially when you thought things were going so well


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## Bunnylady

Man, losing kits is tough. 

But rabbits seem determined to keep us humble. I've had them for nearly 30 years, and they still manage to do things that make me shake my head and say, "well, gal, that's a new one!"


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## BlessedWithGoats

So sorry for your loss!!  Losing them is definitely hard!  My rabbit's first litter I lost all but two, and the third litter I lost them all, but with that litter, I lost the mommy too, and tried to bottle-feed the survivors.


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## Shorty

I'm sorry for your loss


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## samssimonsays

So sorry for your loss  It is never an easy loss.


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## JakeM

Okay, update time. Finals are in less than 4 days and I need to de-stress (at 1:30 in the morning ).

So, my Champagne d'Argent I found was pregnant! I knew she was getting fatter, and I didn't think I was feeding her more. Sadly, she had them (only two) before they were fully developed on day 25/26. They didn't seem to have external ears and they had no pigment (were red from blood vessels). I have a picture (not gruesome, I promise) and I'll post it if people want to see.

More bad news (yay...), one of my kits out of litter of 6 had developed nest box sore eyes (usually caused by a very dirty nest box and is a bacterial infection). I don't understand why it developed, I treated this litter the same as my other litters, cleaning the box at the same points I would with any other litter. I've been fighting it with this little doe for about 2 1/2, almost 3 weeks. Any thoughts/suggestions? Any tips? Anyone had this before pop up in their barn/rabbitry? I've been cleaning it daily (2 times if my schedule allows) and applying an ophthalmic ointment as said in _Raising Better Rabbits and Cavies_.

Positive news? The litter seems to be half of each gender, so options are there for keepers. And we've had no new snow for like 2 weeks! Plus most of what we had is gone (if not all). Going to be re/breeding some rabbits soon, just gotta get them in the mood and wait for them to be at their most receptive. If all goes correctly, I should have 4-6 litters at once, still deciding on a couple does and whether or not to try them yet.


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## Latestarter

I don't do rabbits, sorry to hear of your issues. Just wanted to wish you luck on your finals.


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## Hens and Roos

sorry to hear of the problems, it could be that the one kit is susceptible/weaker immune system.  Not sure what you are using to clean the kits eyes but we have vetericyn on and use it for purposes like this.  Personally, we wouldn't keep her as a breeder.

Good luck with your finals!


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## Bunnylady

Best of luck with your finals, Jake!

It's a bummer about the premature delivery; I've only see that happen a handful of times. The earliest litter I've ever had survive was 27 days' gestation, and it was a huge litter (14, if memory serves). With such a short gestation period, just a couple of days makes a huge difference.

Infected eyes usually respond quickly to treatment - sometimes just cleaning the eye and keeping it from sealing itself shut is enough. A case this persistent may be something else. My first thought is entropion - the eyelid turned inward so that the eyelashes are rubbing against the eye and irritating it. Have you checked for this?


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## BlessedWithGoats

Best wishes on your Finals! 
Did the premature bunnies make it?
Aww, sorry to hear about the bunny with sore eyes! Hope she recovers quickly!


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## sadieml

I'm guessing from the way you spoke that the premies didn't make it.  Is that right?  So sorry.  Losses are very hard, I know.  Also, sorry to hear about the little one with the sore eyes.  I agree with @Bunnylady (of course I'd be crazy not to, she's been doing bunnies for 30+ yrs), I'd be looking for another cause.  I hope it's something treatable.  I'll be praying for her to recover soon.

Good luck on your exams.


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## JakeM

Sorry it's been awhile.
I do have pictures to help make up for it. 

As for the doe with the eye problem, it's clearing up very well. Her sister is looking a lot better than her at this point, so she'll probably be going anyways.

No, the premies did not make it. They were too underdeveloped.

Exams went well. 

Update+pics:

This is the better doe exactly 1 month ago






Here she is again 2 weeks ago





And also a top view of the her





And their brother who I feel is best (although the smallest bro is starting to look really good as well). Only thing is he likes to sit with his head up, so I had to hold it down.


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## Latestarter

They look pretty sleek. Good to hear you did well on exams. Couple months and school will be done for a spell.


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## JakeM

Gosh, it's been too long. So to make up for that, here are some kits that were born two days ago. I think there's only one or two solids. Haven't had a chance to look thoroughly yet.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Congrats!!


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## samssimonsays

Congrats!


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## Baymule

What cutie-pie babies!


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## Hens and Roos

Congrats!


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## JakeM

Thank you everyone!

No new pictures today, but some good news. The new mom had her babies yesterday morning! She had two live and one DOA. Looks like a hippo (long, watery, just not formed right), I've had it happen once before. They're fat little babies and she's doing great so far.
Another doe gave birth later in the day and had 6. I've had issues with this doe before, but she's doing good so far.
Now I'm just waiting on one more. Today is Day 29 for her so I'm expecting them on Wednesday sometime.


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## Hens and Roos

Hope they all do well for you!  We are at day 31 for our 2 Cali does


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## Latestarter

Good that things are going smoothly. Gotta love it when things go as intended. Good luck with the next batch.


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## JakeM

Thank you @Hens and Roos and @Latestarter 

Well, things have sadly hit a bump now. I've lost 3 older kits due to getting chilled. They were outside the cages on the floor. Tried to revive one but it was gone.

And then some good news tied to bad news. I got my last litter for this round! She had 8, but 3 were dead when I found them. 1 was outside the box on the wire and 2 seemed to have been squished inside the box.

Fostered a couple kits from one litter to my litter of 2. They were eating a bit too much, so by adding a couple more I'm hoping to avoid that.


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## Hens and Roos

Sorry to hear that you lost some kits...hopefully the rest do well for you!


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## Latestarter

Yeah, that's a shame that you lost some... Just a freak occurrence or maybe a new mom who didn't know any better? Do you keep records of this stuff for future reference so if it is a habitually bad mom you can eliminate her from your breeding stock? Nice that you were able to foster a few... kinda even out the load on the moms and provide better care for all the kits.


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## JakeM

And we have eyes open!


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