# Opinions and insight please ( studding out ram )



## CedarFalls (Nov 27, 2014)

Hello, I am a Canadian with a small flock of registered babydolls. I am hoping for some help/opinions in regards to studding my ram. It's not something I really want to do but my neighbour who has some ewes asked if I would. I agreed that it would likely be possible. However, I just found out yesterday though that 2 of the 4 ewes she said she wanted bred were coming from some other farm. This worries me a bit as far as disease transmission. My neighbour is only a 3 min drive from me, but I know nothing about where the other sheep are coming from. The good thing is that I'd be bringing one of my rams to her property and then could quarantine him later. I wont have to bring the ewes to my place. How much should I be asking for a stud fee? In Canada pricing is higher for babydolls than in most of the US. They typically sell here for $1000 for colored ewe,$800 for white ewe, $800 for colored ram and $500 for white ram. When purchasing registered babydolls in my neck of the woods it is also usually quite a drive to get to a breeder.
My neighbour is saying that $100 stud fee per ewe is the going rate but that sounds really low and not really worth my worry. I'm not sure where she pulled this rate from. In my search I have come across other breeds that sell for way less having ram studs go for $200 per ewe in some cases. I've even seen  registered Nigerian bucks gor for $75-$100 per doe. I want to be neighbourly and would be fine giving my neighbour a good deal but now it is involving a 3rd party that I don't even know. I don't want to give away or loose something I've worked hard to obtain and I want a fair piece of the deal. I am risking the possible loss of my ram if he gets sick or injured while on her property. I also shipped my one ram from the other side of Canada to bring in new genetics. He was a very expensive boy. I'm not sure that is the ram she will be using but if so I feel it would warrent a higher price. Even so, if I had to replace a ram it would probably be much more expensive than just the replcement cost becuse I'd have to drive about 8 hrs round trip to another breeder. I have been told so many different prices over the last few days that I should be asking that I am now very confused. I had been fine with waiting to see if ram lambs or ewe lambs were born since rams are worth less but now I don't know how it would work with another owner being involved. Please let me know suggestions and how I should go about this. Any input is appreciated. What do you think an appropriate stud fee per ewe would be? Any stud contracts as examples? Thank you!


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## BrownSheep (Nov 28, 2014)

First off sorry for the delay in answers today. It's our Thanksgiving in the States so we're a little low on login traffic today. 

I don't stud out my rams or rent rams so this is pretty much just opinion. I don't deal in big money animals and if we did ever enter into something like this it would be pretty much pro-bono or as a "trade" even with our yaks which are expensive creatures. 

To me a 100-200 is pretty fair although incredibly expensive. Imagining that the ewes produce twins the owners could be looking at a sale of anywhere of 2000-1000. This would put your price at bout 10-20% the value of the lambs. This however doesn't account for losses, cost of raising, registering.  I would average out my price at 150 a ewe. Admittedly, your neighbor probably won't be happy with this since they have found a price of what they think is fair. 

Here are some questions I have for you. Is your ram registered ( I assume so.) Are the ewes? My prices would be lowered if unregistered or mixed animals are being produced. For this I might not be willing to stud out my animal if he is expensive.

I might go ahead and offer a delayed price dependent on sex and number of lambs to your neighbor, especially if you two are on pretty good terms. Since, you don't know the other owners I would just have a set cost. Explain to your neighbor you have to contract to two separate parties since your genetics will be going out to two different flocks. 

If possible have the neighbor " quarrentine" the new ewes for at least a week. It will give you at least a little time to make certain nothings going to pop up. I would keep in mind that your neighbor probably won't be willing to subject his animals to sick animals as well. 

As for what to do if something happens to your ram it kind of depends on situation. First I would also outline the "replacement". Have what your ram is worth down in writing before. If you want to guarantee you will still have that diverse genetics I would even state specific breeders the replacement is to come from.  

If he was to die or fall ill on their property- Most likely their ewes won't have been bred. I would apply their stud fee towards the replacement ( 4 X 150= 600). The remainder (including transport) falls on the other parties.  If it involves driving they do it.  
If he was to fall ill and die after being returned ( set time line) - I would put the time line at 10-14 days after he returns to your property.  Their ewes will most likely be bred so they will still be getting an asset from the breeding so I would say they are a 100% responsible for replacing him. 
This is just me but unless your ram is a champion or from champion stock I have a hard time justifying an increase in price. Even if he is from new line in your area. While this is an asset. It doesn't make him or his offspring better just because its a new line. But again, just me.  

It's late so I'm going to quit now but feel free to throw out any question and qualms and most importantly


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## Bossroo (Nov 28, 2014)

A value of a ram is worth at least half or much more the value  of the flock ...


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## CedarFalls (Nov 28, 2014)

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. Some really good points were raised and I completely agree with everything you said. I don't show, so my rams aren't champions. Having two seperate contracts is also is great idea. There is so little info available in regards to studding out a ram so I hope this thread can come in handy for someone else at some point.
My neighbour is brand new to sheep/livestock and is not very knowledgeable and I am fairly new to sheep as well but have had other livestock ect for quite awhile. I kind of think she pulled her estimated fee from the wind so I just wanted to make sure it was fair and after reading your reply I feel good about the $100-$150 fee. My neighbour is also saying that neither she, nor the other people plan to sell any lambs born. I feel this is of little relevance because they are still getting lambs and at some point they will surely need to sell or swap some of their flock.


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## Sumi (Nov 28, 2014)

Sorry can't answer your questions, just wanted to say Welcome to the forum!


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## purplequeenvt (Nov 28, 2014)

We get $20-50/ewe when we stud out rams. Our sheep are purebred registered stock (Border Leicesters and Shetlands).

You are in a different area so prices could be significantly different. Personally, I couldn't afford to rent a ram for $100 + a ewe. It would be cheaper for me to buy a ram.

IMO, you should treat your neighbor and the other person as 2 separate parties. If you feel like being neighborly and want to give a discount, do that. But don't feel obligated to do the same for the other person. Be upfront with your neighbor though. Tell her that you are giving her the "friend" discount and that the other party is getting a different price.

I'd also encourage her to have this other person contact you directly. That way you get a better sense of who you are dealing with. Not to mention it's polite.

I'd decide on your breeding fee and get that money upfront. Don't let her decide what is a fair price. You decide and tell her. If she doesn't like it, oh well. She can figure something else out.

I wouldn't wait until her lambs are born and charge according to what she gets. Too many variables. For example, if a lamb is stillborn or dies shortly after birth, does she still have to pay for that lamb? I'd rather get potentially a little less profit, but have the security of having the money in my hand instead of waiting 5 months and not knowing what I'm getting.

I don't think that I'd arbitrarily demand that your neighbor pay to replace your ram should he die while on her property. If it was her fault, then yes, but sheep die. It happens all the time without it being due to neglect or bad care.

I would feel terrible if someone's sheep died while in my care, but I'd be PO'd if they told me that I had to replace it just because it happened to be on my property at the time. If I was responsible for the death, that's a different matter.

Set the value of your ram based on what it cost you to get him (purchase price + travel expenses) and have that amount put in writing as what she liable for should the sheep die while in her care AND she is found to be responsible. If he dies, get an autopsy.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 28, 2014)

I don't have sheep, so my opinion is coming from the standpoint of a goat breeder.

First, If it were me, I wouldn't do it.  I don't trust anyone else to take care of my animals the way I take care of them.   You said they are new to sheep - so what if your ram got sick and they didn't even notice it?

Second, I sell buck kids.  The reason I can sell buck kids is because I DON'T (ok, rarely) do buck service.  If someone wants an animal from my blood lines they can buy a buck kid to get it.  It gives me a market.

Lastly - I have on occasion (rarely) offered service when I was in neutral territory - such as a goat show.  My buck was still under my care, the animals at the show are usually healthy and may (or may not have) a health certificate, for what they're worth.  But, my point is, my animal could not be accused of bringing any disease to their farm, and their animal could not be accused of bringing anything to my farm. If I am at a show I have already assumed the risk of bringing my buck to that place.  And, I get to approve the doe.  If she is a nice show goat and her offspring will represent MY bloodline in other shows - it's a win/win situation.

But, I can understand wanting to help a neighbor.  However, in my opinion, your neighbor over stepped their boundary by offering the use of YOUR ram on someone else's ewes.


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## CedarFalls (Nov 28, 2014)

Thanks Sumi! (guess I should introduce myself in the intro area ) This forum is awesome and there is so much to learn from reading through it : )

You make some really good points Purple. I don't think I'd ever ask that she be responsible in any way for my ram once he is back on my property. And I know she would feel horrible if anything happened to him while in her care. Sheep die and accidents happen. Losing my ram is a big concern with studding him. I know bad stuff happens sometimes though and that she couldn't be blamed if he just fell over dead while all the other sheep were totally fine. My biggest worry is predation. We have a lot of cougars around here but that is a worry for anyone with livestock in my area. There's just as much chance of me losing him on my property as there is on her property. I'm not sure if this will post but this is one of many trail cam pics of cougars in my yard:





And yes, I would like to at least talk to the other people and let them know that they would need to sign a stud contract as well. I am fine not getting money upfront from my neighbour but definitely not fine when it involves a stranger. I've been ripped off before and unfortunately have become untrusting and much more cautious about things that way.

I am encouraging my neighbour to get her own ram next year but for whatever reason, she is very reluctant.


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## CedarFalls (Nov 28, 2014)

Frustrated...I never really considered being blamed if her sheep were to fall sick. There are so many factors that I don't think I'd do this again. My ram will only be a 3 min drive away. I pass by her property every time I go to town and the road is higher so I can see right down to where she keeps her sheep. I'm sure she would be fine with me stopping by. She _is_ new to sheep and she doesn't seem to know a lot of things about them, that said, she is learning like we all had to and she has had her flock for about a year now and they look healthy and well cared for with decent shelter. There are a lot of 'small worries', but since I'm so close I think it will be ok. I'd never do this if I wasn't so close.
I was taken back when I found out she was bringing in 2 other ewes from another farm. She totally caught me off guard. It's another reason that I want to talk to the other people. I don't even know if they know she doesn't have her own ram. I don't know my neighbour really well and wish this just involved the two of us ( it would be a lot simpler ) but on the other hand, I figure that if I am sending my ram to her I might as well have him breed more than 2 ewes.


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## doxiemoxie (Dec 2, 2014)

I'm a little late to the conversation but I still want to add my two cents!   
First-  If your intuition is screaming "NO" Listen to it.  It is really hard to replace an animal you are happy with. I'll repeat that because I am still mourning the loss of my favorite ram:  it is really hard to replace an animal you are happy with!

You are putting your ram at risk on many levels: housing, predators, interactions with a new herd, disease, new food/forage, stress from all the previous, and leaving it up to someone else to properly supervise, observe and care for for him.

Should you decide to still share:

As far as fees go a rule of thumb for registered animals is the stud fee equals the cost of the best offspring; and you might consider adding in the cost of a vet doing a post breeding physical and screening for diseases.  I know that is pricey- but it's still worth it.  sheep are tricky because the cost for an individual is quickly overcome by care costs. But this is why good, (and usually registered) livestock are more expensive.

If your neighbor is trying to build a healthy herd, encourage her to wait and buy one of your lambs. Then she'll have good genetics from your ram and a good dam.  And she can decide for her own ram the costs and risks of studding him out.  I think she isn't thinking things through very responsibly- not putting her down or anything, just thinking she needs a little more "education" (which is not your job).  A year's wait for a ram gives her more time to learn about sheep and her breed.


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## CedarFalls (Dec 8, 2014)

Thx doxie. It looks like it will just be my neighbour's ewes after all. This makes things less complicated and a bit less worrisome.
I really appreciated everyone's advice with this. Some very good points have been made.


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## M.L. McKnight (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm pretty tardy to the party here but I will offer my two cents.
I don't have any sheep but I can tell you what I do with my boar. I have a registered purebred Berkshire that I offer for stud. I did my homework and found a boar that I felt would impact my herd and he wasn't cheap so I price his services accordingly. When someone wants to use him then I tell them that they need to provide me with a current health certificate for their sow(s) or gilt(s) that they want to use. Then I tell them that I will visually inspect their hogs and if everything goes well, it costs $50.00 per pig. They can drop off their pig(s) anytime after noon on a set date and must pick their stock up before noon on the third day or I charge an additional $20.00. (That might sound harsh but I muck out the breeding pen, burn it with my torch and let it stand barren for a minimum of 24 hours before I replace the bedding and use it again. Someone taking their time to pick up their stock could potentially mess up my schedule book.)

I provide breeding services, feed, bedding, water, treats (because I spoil my pigs too) and care for that $50.00 and health certificate from their vet. I could easily charge more but I'm not the greedy type and would rather take $0.10 a month from someone a year than $1.00 up front. (Old saying) 
I have a breeding pen set up that is separate from my herd on the other side of the farm, I make sure that my herd has been serviced before breeding anyone else's stock, keep my boar away from the herd for a 2-4 weeks after using him to breed someone else's stock, give my boar a full day of rest to recharge between uses and (most importantly) let everyone know up front that if I don't like their stock then they won't even get them unloaded.

I read several good suggestions and imagine that you have everything figured out but again just figured I would chime in anyway.


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