# What the heck did this?  [Warning: Graphic photos]!



## soarwitheagles

Well, my wife's favorite lamb is our new white lamb whom she named, "Snow."  My favorite of all time are 4 new black lambs...incredibly healthy and incredibly fast runners even though they are only a few weeks old.  Last week I saw these black rams running 30-40 mph in our pasture and it was a delight to watch them run and play.

Yesterday, I discovered that two of my favorite black lambs obviously could not run fast enough...

I feel a bit sad, and very much angry.

I have some questions for the experienced sheep herders here...

1. What could have possibly done this?
2. Why would it kill two lambs, take one head, and leave the other lamb dead but intact?
3. What am I to do with the mommy ewe that has an udder looking like it is ready to explode?

Nuff said...


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## Baymule

Oh, I am so sorry about your beautiful lambs!  I know you are heartsick over this. 

You might need to consider a LGD, actually, 2 of them. Mine might bark a lot at night, but that is telling the predators to STAY AWAY and they do. If we didn't have the dogs, we would have no sheep.


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## greybeard

Fox. (plural)


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## soarwitheagles

Thanks for the replies.  Yes Greybeard, we have a large population of red tailed foxes in this area. But I thought they were too small to take down a sheep...


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## Pioneer Chicken

Oh no! I'm so sorry. I can't help you much with the sheep q's  but hope you find answers soon.


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## Southern by choice




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## promiseacres

would the mama adopt another lamb??


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## Latestarter

Sorry for your losses... typically foxes aren't a threat to adult sheep. Lambs are NOT off the menu... You might try a large havahart or large predator/similar trap and use the carcass as bait and see if what did this comes back for 2nds. I'd leave it in the same general area where the kill happened.

ETA: if the momma ewe is in distress, you could always catch her up and milk her out some to relieve the pressure. You could also keep milking her & save/freeze the milk for future use with bottle lambs or rejected lambs.


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## mystang89

Wow I never imagined a fox to be able to do that. I knew they could room a chicken house but thought they were a bit small for lambs. That's good to know though.

I'm am very sorry for this. Did it happen at night or day?


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## soarwitheagles

Hi mystang89,

We believe this occurred during the evening hours.  Our sheep will often go out into the forest at night...

Not anymore...at least for now.  We are keeping them in a pen with lights on!  A friend recommended we also turn on  a radio...


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## Mini Horses

So sorry.  I would also be just heartbroken!   

What jumps at me from the pictures is that the ONLY damage appears to be a missing head that looks neatly removed.  Generally the gut is opened or just more damage to the carcass.  To me that is odd for any animal found killed.   If being chased, one could have dropped and died from fright or such stress.   Large predators would have taken the carcass or consumed more.


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## mystang89

Only thing I've ever seen just take a head was a raccoon with my chickens.


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## Baymule

Whatever it was, it now knows where to find it's next meal. It will be back. Putting them up at night is good, but predators can come out during the daytime also. 

Again, I mention LGDs. Yes they take some training, yes they take some time, but they sure are worth it. In this picture is Trip, our male. We had him before we got sheep, so there was a learning curve. He got that teenager attack of stupid and thought it a fun idea to chase lambs-and I had to straighten him out. Now he adores the baby lambs.  Our female, Paris had never seen a sheep and it took some time to get her to accept them. But I couldn't ask for a better guardian than Paris. Both took time and training, but I sleep easy at night because I know my sheep are well guarded. Both dogs are on super alert now because of the lambs.


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## Goat Whisperer

This is not my area of “expertise” but does anyone else find it a little odd that there is no blood around the lamb? (Unless soar moved the lamb) @greybeard - any ideas? We have LGD’s so don’t deal with anything like this. 

Soar, did you check over the bodies thoroughly? Part the hair to see if you could find any punctures? Did you check along the hocks? 

How many lambs do you have right now? 
Older or younger than these lambs? 

So sorry for your loss.


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## Mini Horses

Honestly -- any chance a 2-legged predator?   No blood, no mess, no other damage...very unsettling,  if an animal attack I would expect more evidence of their kill.  Plus the ewe would normally be putting herself between them and danger...she looks untouched.   Any prints around on ground?  Very unsettling all around.


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## soarwitheagles

Hey everyone!  Thank you for your replies.  This has never happened to us before and not sure what to make of it.

I sent the pics to our local animal control officers who have years of experience and know this area well and know how to "read" kills.

Their reply today really concerned me.  They are saying this was done by a human, not an animal.  That is sick, real sick.  I have no clue who would do such a thing.  What makes it most painful is those were two of my favorite lambs of all.

Anyhow, they have suggested we contact the Sheriff's office and they also suggested we have UC Davis do an necrospy.

After reading their email, I went back out to the forest to collect the carcasses.  Dang, not a trace of either of the lambs...no drag marks, no blood, no nothing.  I did see one coyote and it ran after it saw me.

I will have the Sheriff out tomorrow.  I also just ordered a number of game trail cams, rechargeable batteries, and will also install some HD IP IR cams in the forest area [I can only go out 100 yards with them].

Does anyone else here think this was done by a human?  How the heck could a human catch these lambs?  They will not permit humans to get near them and they run from you and they are very fast.

To answer your questions...

Yes, now I am interested in LGD.  In fact, I now feel as if we can't continue without them.
We had a total of 15 lambs.  Most are 21-60 days old.  We have two more ewes getting ready to drop their lambs any day.
I just moved the entire flock back into our sheep pen and it is lighted at night.


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## Latestarter

Whatever killed them I have no idea, but I'm sure the wild predators would have smelled the blood/carcasses and unless the humans came back to collect the bodies, they may have been removed by coyotes or some other. Sorry Soar... the possibility that it was done by a person just makes it the worst case...


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## Southern by choice

@Goat Whisperer  mentioned this to me this morning. She said no way was that an animal predator. Too clean. I had my suspicions, but hate to think that way.


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## Goat Whisperer

I don’t know your situation, animals, setup, etc.  but humans were my first thought. 

I thought about PMing you, because something seemed off about this. 

This is becoming a more and more common occurrence. People are crazy. Ritual killings happen. A few years back there was a farm that had a bunch of animals slaughtered during the night, interesting enough it was only horned animals that were taken/killed. Dehorned animals were left alone.  

Others had animals of a certain color taken (I wonder why it happened to be your 2 black lambs).


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## greybeard

soarwitheagles said:


> How the heck could a human catch these lambs? They will not permit humans to get near them and they run from you and they are very fast.


.22 with an oil filter silencer can catch just about anything. Perhaps shot in the head.


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## promiseacres

Ugh....so hoping it was 4 legged.... 

 Not much Scarier than human.


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## soarwitheagles

greybeard said:


> .22 with an oil filter silencer can catch just about anything. Perhaps shot in the head.



Nice idea greybeard...if you live in TX!  Unfortunately, I am in the land of CA Insanity...stripped of our God given rights.

If I were caught with a silencer, I would forfeit for life my California teaching credential and I would also go to jail for a very, very, long time.  So a silencer is a no go for me.  With all the advancements in PCP air rifles, we can put down large wild life with .30-.50 cal now and the suppressors are legally allowed on the PCP air rifles.  We may not get the same distance, but anything under 100 yards when shooting at rest I own completely.

Spoke with the Sheriff.  In our locale, they are really good people.  They are coming over to our place right now.  The deputy on the non-emergency line talked to me for quite some time.  He knows this area well and he lost over 20 sheep in a week to coyotes in the past.  I sent him the pics asking him to share his insights too.  I have another sheriff friend who is a neighbor and who is now retired and raises sheep full time.  He was kind of emphatic in stating no way it could be a human.  He put in over 17 years as a homicide detective.  He asked me one question:  How could a human run and catch two lambs that can easily outrun a human in an open 15+ acre forest?  That really got me to thinking...

One sheriff recommended the ARLO PRO cameras.  Never heard of them, but I will look at them tomorrow.

I am contemplating selling off most of our sheep now.  Very little rain this year, and fava beans are actually beginning to die!  Worst of all, the back forest has very, very little forage and grass.

Have a great day everyone!


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## Goat Whisperer

soarwitheagles said:


> He put in over 17 years as a homicide detective. He asked me one question: How could a human run and catch two lambs that can easily outrun a human in an open 15+ acre forest? That really got me to thinking...


What does he think it is?


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## Mini Horses

A tazer will take it down quickly, possibly an air gun.   IF an animal did that beheading, they are carrying a clean up tote as well.  IMO


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## babsbag

I think that @greybeard meant that the lamb was killed with a gun with a silencer, not that you were to use one.  The lamb that wasn't missing a head, any signs of how it died? I saw that picture and immediately thought human. If you keep your sheep and need an LGD or two I am pretty sure I have pups due March 2.  So sorry that you had to find this...stuff like this is one of my biggest fears.


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## soarwitheagles

Goat Whisperer said:


> What does he think it is?



He is convinced it is a pack of coyotes...

But the officer that came over this evening is convinced it is a mountain lion...he says they lick up all the blood.

Other people say it could be a weird cult.  To be honest with you, not trying to offend anyone, but I do not believe that even for one second...

Game trail cameras should put an end to all speculation.  I should have them within a few more days and plan on installing them immediately.  I hope to post pics of the predator soon!



Mini Horses said:


> A tazer will take it down quickly, possibly an air gun.   IF an animal did that beheading, they are carrying a clean up tote as well.  IMO



I have no clue what it is/was.  I have been a city slicker for most of my life and rarely even had a pet.

I am trusting that the game trail cameras will solve the mystery!


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## Baymule

I hope the game cams will solve the mystery. I love my dogs and wouldn't be without them. @babsbag made you a nice offer.....might want to look further into that. Nothing like dogs that you know their background on.


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## soarwitheagles

babsbag said:


> I think that @greybeard meant that the lamb was killed with a gun with a silencer, not that you were to use one.  The lamb that wasn't missing a head, any signs of how it died? I saw that picture and immediately thought human. If you keep your sheep and need an LGD or two I am pretty sure I have pups due March 2.  So sorry that you had to find this...stuff like this is one of my biggest fears.



Oh my!  So sorry!  I totally misread greybeard's post.  Now I see what he was saying.  Wow, never even thought of that!

Babs, we saw absolutely no trauma on the other lamb at all...and there was no blood anywhere on it.  Now I wish I had skinned it to see if there were any entry/exit bullet wounds.  My wife and I hope to go back out tomorrow afternoon and scour the entire forest for any more evidence.

I am totally interested in your LGD pups.  Please PM me more info such as breed, price, required training, etc.

Thank you!


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## soarwitheagles

Baymule said:


> I hope the game cams will solve the mystery. I love my dogs and wouldn't be without them. @babsbag made you a nice offer.....might want to look further into that. Nothing like dogs that you know their background on.



Bay,

The sheriff officer that came to our property this evening told us that 3 months ago a mountain lion in a nearby rural area killed two full grown Rottweiler's.  It tore them both to pieces.  Three months ago, we had a mountain lion nearby that slaughtered 4 goats and did it just for fun, did not even take one bite out of them.  The Department of Fish and Wildlife gave warnings to all of us to not permit our children to walk through the forested road to the bus stop alone.

http://www.galtheraldonline.com/new...cle_db11a452-d52b-11e7-87d3-4b9568d1f538.html

In January, the Parks Department sent out warnings of mountain lions in our county.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/01/12/parks-department-warns-to-watch-out-for-mountain-lions/

Last, we also have a sizable bobcat population here too...

http://www.cosumnes.org/category/mountain-lion-study/


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## Baymule

I know that lions can kill dogs, but most will try to avoid dogs. Lions are just nasty predators to have around. I an glad that the worst predator around here are coyotes.


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## babsbag

We have bobcats, mountain lions, bears, and coyotes, not to mention the small pests like fox, skunk, and racoon.  I have seen the bobcat, neighbor saw the lion, and another neighbor has a picture of the bear at his pond. The coyotes are very vocal and obvious. But with 4 dogs and good fences the only predators I worry about are humans with guns, not even the best LGD is a match for that. 

What sick person...thinking ritual...needs a lamb's head? And why kill the second one? Maybe they got scared off.  You said that the carcasses were gone? After you saw them were they out there over night or did something take them during the day?


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## Southern by choice

Well, if you've ever seen what and how predators kill they aren't "clean". There would be blood all over the carcass and more puncture wounds. Hopefully you will find out what it was.


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## babsbag

I just read an article about lambs being killed this very way...no blood. It was in England and the verdict was either fox or badger. They say that the fox will actually suck the blood from the animal before eating the head. Personally I would rather it be an animal than a human.


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## Southern by choice

babsbag said:


> I just read an article about lambs being killed this very way...no blood. It was in England and the verdict was either fox or badger. They say that the fox will actually suck the blood from the animal before eating the head. Personally I would rather it be an animal than a human.


wow! the fox family beside us doesn't get to our animals because of the dogs but before that they'd take a chicken but can a fox take something as big as a month old lamb?
I do wonder if the intact lamb was just run to death (chase of some sort) 
Terribly sad.
I just don't put anything past people because it is all over FB all the time. Sick sick sick people out there.


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## babsbag

There are sick people, and that is why I would prefer the 4-legged predator any day, at least they are doing what is "normal".


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## greybeard

Yes, my .22 comment was in reference to someone's question how anything.anyone could catch a fleet footed lamb. They, like calves are fast but can't outrun a bullet.

Coyotes here are very vocal, but only during the first part of the nightly gathering and when they first begin the hunt. Once the tracking & chase of a particular prey is joined, it's like someone flips the off switch on their vocals. 

Babsbag, I've seen the same thing on the cattle/goat/sheep ranch I worked part time on in Tom Green County Texas. (I spent most of my time fencing)

I think the greys and swift fox would be hard pressed to kill a lamb, tho they are certainly fast enough, but the red fox we have in Texas are up to the task and that was the predator we saw most in TG county with the lambs.
The fox they have in GB and other parts of the world are a little bigger than the American red fox I believe, but like any canine, they do love the taste of blood. 






I don't know anything much about badgers (never heard of a badger in E Texas) but I do know there were some out in that western area. My father killed one near Sweetwater Texas when I was very young.

Of course, it is also very possible it was a 2 legged varmint.


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## Simpleterrier

I would have to say that those lambs were dead awhile before the head was removed. Even a person would leave blood. Maybe they died from an unknown reason and an animal started eating one. Then the same or different animal took away the rest. The lamb died and the blood had to have time to not flow before the head was removed I would have to think that would take an hour or so.


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## babsbag

@Simpleterrier I thought the same thing about the blood but the article I was reading said that the fox and badger would actually suck the blood from the kill before beheading it and no blood trail would be found.


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## greybeard

If you've ever had dogs around an old fashioned slaughter/butchering outdoors, you already know they will (if allowed) eat or lick up every drop of spilled blood.


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## soarwitheagles

Wow, what a wonderful crash course in sheep predators!  Thank you everyone for sharing your insights and ideas and concerns.  You are helping this city slicker become farm/ranch predator educated.

For now we are keeping the sheep in the sheep pen with lights on all night, no climb fence on the perimeter. I let em' out to do a couple of hours of grazing on the clover every afternoon.  For now, feeding them a combo of hay and alfalfa in the pen using the sheep feeder.

To be honest with you, without the freedom to graze the sheep in the forest, the feed costs will be more than the effort and the sheep are worth.

If we cannot secure the back forest and/or eradicate the predators, then I will sell off most of the flock and simply keep half a dozen on the clover fields for the year.

Still waiting for the game cams to arrive.  Hope to set them up this weekend.

Thanks again everyone for sharing your insights!

Have a great day/evening!


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## Latestarter

Would be a real shame if you have to give up on your dream because of this. So sorry...


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## greybeard

I hate to mention it, but If it was humans, and your area is like mine, the carnage will continue and the game cams will be the first thing stolen. If they can eat it, drink it, or sell it, they'll take it.


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## babsbag

Hot wire would be on my list of things to install too. And greybeard is right...you need to try and hide the cameras.


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## Goat Whisperer

You may also want to consider those "Night guard" things.
https://www.jefferspet.com/products/nite-guard-solar






It's a red blinking light, and might distract from the actual camera itself.
They are around $20...

Just a thought


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## Pastor Dave

The Night Guard seems real practical and capable.

I can't imagine living in a state that so heavily regulates firearm use, possession, etc. I have fears the whole country could end up in that kind of mess.

I recently bought a Rossi. 44mag lever action carbine rifle for coyotes, other big predators, or two-legged varmint. When we finally get our own place, I plan to have it readily available. 

I thank God I live in a state that retains its freedoms. Maybe you should get an Indiana teaching license. I pray you can discover and eradicate your predator.


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## Baymule

Perhaps you can scale back to what the "safe" land will carry until you get a couple of pups raised up and ready to go to the woods.


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## babsbag

CA doesn't really have outrageous gun control laws unless there are some counties that do and I don't know about them. My county is still pretty red-neck so we are good. But we do have to be registered to buy ammo.


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## Baymule

babsbag said:


> CA doesn't really have outrageous gun control laws unless there are some counties that do and I don't know about them. My county is still pretty red-neck so we are good. But we do have to be registered to buy ammo.



To me, that's pretty outrageous.


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## babsbag

It doesn't really bother me. I have other things to fight and nothing to hide so I will roll with it.  I figure that it is just their misguided way of thinking that this will prevent gun violence so I let them have their mighty dreams and move on to other things.


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## greybeard

The slippery slope. He who controls  the ammo, controls the .......can't control it if you don't know who has it.


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## soarwitheagles

Latestarter said:


> Would be a real shame if you have to give up on your dream because of this. So sorry...



I may have to scale back and postpone some of my dream for now LS...



greybeard said:


> I hate to mention it, but If it was humans, and your area is like mine, the carnage will continue and the game cams will be the first thing stolen. If they can eat it, drink it, or sell it, they'll take it.



I suppose our area is different than yours...most people are terrified of coming out here and messing with people or property because this is a red neck part of California and a lot of the neighbors are heavily armed and some of them are far too "shoot first and ask questions later" orientated. Our entire front part and sides of the property are covered with the HD IP IR cameras 24/7.  Motion detectors with push notifications, etc.  We have posted the signs with the penal codes and utter commitment to fully prosecute.  Heck, even professionals, if they do their scanning work correctly realize from the set up this is the wrong place to trespass.  So to be honest with you, I am not much worried about the 2-legged predators.  I do not say this out of pride or arrogance.  I know well how to set up a security zone.  But the back forested acreage is an entirely different story...and this is now the challenge.

I just purchased the camo cams.  The cams will be difficult to find and steal unless you are scanning well and are a professional, and are very, very desperate.  And to be honest with you, I don't think there is a person on the planet that desperate for our sheep.  Nearby ranchers have far more and far better quality sheep than we do.



babsbag said:


> Hot wire would be on my list of things to install too. And greybeard is right...you need to try and hide the cameras.



Yes, but that is a lot of wire to install.  For now, it is not an option.



Pastor Dave said:


> The Night Guard seems real practical and capable.
> 
> I can't imagine living in a state that so heavily regulates firearm use, possession, etc. I have fears the whole country could end up in that kind of mess.
> 
> I recently bought a Rossi. 44mag lever action carbine rifle for coyotes, other big predators, or two-legged varmint. When we finally get our own place, I plan to have it readily available.
> 
> I thank God I live in a state that retains its freedoms. Maybe you should get an Indiana teaching license. I pray you can discover and eradicate your predator.



You are a Pastor and you write so lightly and flippantly about taking a human life with your 44 mag over a simple lamb or two?  Wow!  Please do not invite us to your "church"!



Baymule said:


> Perhaps you can scale back to what the "safe" land will carry until you get a couple of pups raised up and ready to go to the woods.



Bay, your statement on scaling back is the exact plan for now.  Thank you!



babsbag said:


> CA doesn't really have outrageous gun control laws unless there are some counties that do and I don't know about them. My county is still pretty red-neck so we are good. But we do have to be registered to buy ammo.



Yes, we still have some of our freedoms...but more and more are being eroded and stripped away on a consistent basis.



Baymule said:


> To me, that's pretty outrageous.



I agree...


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## greybeard

As a kid I can remember buying .22 and shotgun shells from a forgotten named  version of 7-11 store we had in our small town, stacked out in the open right next to the hot beer and wine, which itself was just one thin plywood wall away from where you got the blasting caps, det cord and dynamite. 
Times have changed  lot.


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## soarwitheagles

greybeard said:


> As a kid I can remember buying .22 and shotgun shells from a forgotten named  version of 7-11 store we had in our small town, stacked out in the open right next to the hot beer and wine, which itself was just one thin plywood wall away from where you got the blasting caps, det cord and dynamite.
> Times have changed  lot.



LOL!  And those truly were the good old days!  My dad grew up in Texas in those days...the other day he told me how he would grab his old .22 rifle, walk for an hour down the railroad tracks, shoot 3 jack rabbits, give one to an elderly man, skin, cook and eat the other, and bring the last one home to his mother.  He received top honors as a marksman in the military during the Korean war but he really learned how to shoot when he was just a kid in the backwoods of good ol' Texas.  He grew up near Laredo...


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## greybeard

And if he lived in the right county during the right years, he could also take the jackrabbit's ears to the local feed store and get paid the state bounty on 'em.


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## greybeard

soarwitheagles said:


> I suppose our area is different than yours...most people are terrified of coming out here and messing with people or property because this is a red neck part of California and a lot of the neighbors are heavily armed and some of them are far too "shoot first and ask questions later" orientated.


45 minutes away from Houston, in the middle of a Nat'l Forest, we have a LOT of meth heads here. East Texas rednecks are about as primitive as they come...woodfolk I call them. They're too stupid to be afraid.
We frequently shoot here as well, but the downside to that is if a would be thief is looking to steal firearms, they know there are some here. Most likely will get what comes out of the muzzle of one instead, at my place. 

Don't be too hard on Pastor Dave. As a former LEO, but now a pastor, he knows there are times he might have invoke Luke 22:36..


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## Baymule

As our preacher once said, being a Christian doesn't mean that you have to take bad treatment from others and smile like you like it, when you don't. He also goes armed and believes in protecting his family and flock.


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## Baymule

How long do you have until retirement? Do I need to start looking for you a place?


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## Bruce

soarwitheagles said:


> We are keeping them in a pen with lights on! A friend recommended we also turn on a radio...


Not sure the radio would do anything. I was out behind the barn late at night a bit over a year ago. My small flashlight brought up two red spots a good 120' away, other side of the enclosing fence I'd put up a couple of weeks earlier. I walked to the fence with the light on those spots that got brighter and turned into the eyes of a fox (fox attached of course). It brazenly sat on a large rock not 30' from me then wandered off after a minute or so.

I hope you don't lose any more lambs but the cameras shed light on what may have killed them.


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## Dani4Hedgies

soarwitheagles said:


> You are a Pastor and you write so lightly and flippantly about taking a human life with your 44 mag over a simple lamb or two? Wow! Please do not invite us to your "church"!



I am baffled by this post...as what being a man of God have to do with protecting his wife, children and their food/clothes/home? As a Pagan we understand that even following the law of "to harm none" doesn't apply to those who bring harm to you and yours.


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## soarwitheagles

Wow!  So many responses to my reply regarding shooting two legged varmints...perhaps I could have worded it a little more differently...I sincerely apologize if I have offended anyone here.

I suppose we all have different value systems and need to respect one another's belief systems.

For me, I would never shoot a person for stealing one of my sheep.  Heck, if the thief was truly hungry and desperately needed a meal, I would be more prone to feed him and send him merrily on his way after warning him not return in an uninvited manner.  To be honest with you, I might even give him a lamb for free!

For me personally, I have gone through extensive training to do my very best to avoid armed confrontation...and only resort to lethal force if there is a genuine threat of death or major bodily harm.  Example: the recent shooter in Texas...if I was there and had actually seen him shoot people and I had an opportunity to stop the threat, I wouldn't hesitate for even an instant.  Two taps to the thoracic cavity, two taps to the cranial cavity, threat is over.  Period.  Both my wife and I have been highly trained in weapons,tactics and self defense.  LEO's tell us our training places us at a level more "qualified" than 99% of both police and military.  So we don't really worry a whole lot when it comes to neutralizing a genuine threat.  I say this with humility and gratitude, not with pride and arrogance.  Again, please notice I did not say I AM MORE QUALIFIED/TRAINED THAN 99% OF POLICE/MILITARY.   Both law enforcement and military personnel have told us this and it becomes very obvious at the range and in simulated real life simulations [IDPA], etc.

But to shoot someone [two legged varmint] taking one of my sheep?  So sorry, but that does not reflect who I am.

As stated at the beginning, I suppose it is obvious we all have different value systems...


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## Goat Whisperer

THis thread has taken a spin…
If a human did this, I don’t think it was out of hunger. I don’t know about you, but I’d eat other parts of the lamb before I take the head  

If you really don’t think a person did this you shouldn’t be that worried. Keep your sheep closer until you can bring in a guardian of some sort. Sell some sheep if you need to cover expenses. 

There are livestock guardian dogs, llamas, and donkeys. I only have experience with LG dogs. 

You should look into it.


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## greybeard

soarwitheagles said:


> But to shoot someone [two legged varmint] taking one of my sheep? So sorry, but that does not reflect who I am.


And therein lies the answer to why you got the replies that you did. 
We tend to look at the world and those in it thru our own eyes and not thru theirs. Wabi Sabi.


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## greybeard

Goat Whisperer said:


> THis thread has taken a spin…
> If a human did this, I don’t think it was out of hunger. I don’t know about you, but I’d eat other parts of the lamb before I take the head
> 
> If you really don’t think a person did this you shouldn’t be that worried. Keep your sheep closer until you can bring in a guardian of some sort. Sell some sheep if you need to cover expenses.
> 
> There are livestock guardian dogs, llamas, and donkeys. I only have experience with LG dogs.
> 
> You should look into it.


There's no shortage of sheep/lamb head recipes on the internet. Seems to be more of a specific cultural thing than everyday fare tho so I doubt hunger as we in the West usually view it would be involved.


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## Goat Whisperer

greybeard said:


> There's no shortage of sheep/lamb head recipes on the internet. Seems to be more of a specific cultural thing than everyday fare tho so I doubt hunger as we in the West usually view it would be involved.


I am very much aware. 

I think you missed the point.


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## soarwitheagles

Ok everyone, so sorry for nudging the direction and focus of the original topic away from protecting our sheep to the ethics of shooting people.  I have had a bad habit in the past of drifting from the original focus of the post to other things.  I apologize.  My bad!

Back to protecting our sheep...

I installed a game trail camera last night and focused it upon an area where I scattered some chicken meat and bones...

If the chicken meat and bones are gone, then I will realize it is a careless predator and I will look carefully at the micro card to see what we have here...

Thanks again everyone for your help and I apologize again for drifting from the original topic...


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## Bruce

We are all interested to see what your game camera captures. It is indeed a mysterious case. I can't imagine why a 4 legged varmint strong enough to rip the head off the lamb wouldn't prefer to take the part you found rather than the head. Better and easier eating. Hate to think of a 2 legged one doing it though.


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## soarwitheagles

Bruce said:


> We are all interested to see what your game camera captures. It is indeed a mysterious case. I can't imagine why a 4 legged varmint strong enough to rip the head off the lamb wouldn't prefer to take the part you found rather than the head. Better and easier eating. Hate to think of a 2 legged one doing it though.



Thank you Bruce!  First trail cam showed nothing from last night and chicken meat and bones undisturbed.  I will install a few more trail cams this week.  Hope to solve the mystery!


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## Southern by choice

@soarwitheagles  having game cams all over 30+ acres and all our neighbors having numerous game cams too... the animals we see vary day to day and some are more permanent to the region than others. Just keep that in mind. We have several coyote pairs that are easily identifiable, this is their territory. We see them often, yet others come through. Keeping cams up throughout and viewing the feed for about a month will give you a better idea of what you have on their. Just because you see a fox doesn't mean it was a fox. 


I know awhile back you lost a bunch of sheep and didn't know the cause. Did you ever figure that out?


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## Pastor Dave

soarwitheagles said:


> You are a Pastor and you write so lightly and flippantly about taking a human life with your 44 mag over a simple lamb or two?  Wow!  Please do not invite us to your "church"!



I have been busy with some church activities, believe it or not for the last couple days since posting last, and reading through these posts have kinda amazed me a little. I appreciate those on here that know me at least well enough to want to come to my defense. We haven't met in person, but we have shared parts of our lives, and get to know one anothers' character.

I was a tad bit offended when I first read this reaction, but it was based off a "first opinion", so to say, and this is your post. You're entitled to have your opinion and post it. 

Now, I make a rebuttal, not based off being offended, because I am not now. Sometimes I am honest enough with what I feel, I am blunt with what I "say". I can say I am not flippant about life and death. I am going to protect what is mine, though. Having firearms for security or protection does not have to mean taking a life. I have never taken one while a LEO, and have saved plenty in the years between then and now as a pastor while serving as an EMT and firefighter.

I was the kid that would give my lunch to some kid that didn't have one, or made friends with the kid just rejected by another. We didn't have buddy benches back then. 

The value of losing 2 lambs cannot be replaced if a person should lose their life over the matter, but the value of losing two lambs was enough for you to post your issue, and ask for responses and ideas. Would I show mercy on someone carrying off a lamb out of hunger? I sure would before showing it to someone that severed a lamb's head and left the meat in tact.

You made it sound like all you had to protect your livestick was air rifles due to living in California. I believe in the 2nd Amendment and was stating I would want to be able to keep my firearms for this matter or any threat foreign or domestic. My last right and reason for having my firearms is resisting national tyranny.

It is a hard line to walk being a pastor and believing in conservative rights others look at as flippant or opposite to Christian principle. 

My church welcomes any and many wanting to learn righteousness and having a personal relationship with the Lord. I/we teach biblical principle of love, grace, and mercy. However, we also lock our doors once attendees arrive and have concealed armed greeters to hopefully keep from happening what has occurred in TN and TX churches. Our local schools have locked doors and armed sheriff deputies. Not much different.

I have said it on here before. I am a redneck pastor. I believe in keeping it real. I can and do show love to even those that _would _do me harm. But, in the event they _attempt_ to do it, I will protect myself and others around me.

You are welcome to my church. You are welcome to my home's table. I don't mean offense by my beliefs or statements, just some clarification.

Thanks, Dave


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## greybeard

Goat Whisperer said:


> I am very much aware.
> 
> I think you missed the point.


Entirely possible. I usually do miss the point if it isn't a sharpened stick, HT barb or on a mesquite limb, then I catch every one..


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## greybeard

Southern by choice said:


> @soarwitheagles  having game cams all over 30+ acres and all our neighbors having numerous game cams too... the animals we see vary day to day and some are more permanent to the region than others. Just keep that in mind. We have several coyote pairs that are easily identifiable, this is their territory. We see them often, yet others come through. Keeping cams up throughout and viewing the feed for about a month will give you a better idea of what you have on their. Just because you see a fox doesn't mean it was a fox.


I have, on another board read of a belief that there are "good coyotes and bad coyotes" and it came from a couple of producers that run hundreds of head of cattle on several sections of land and they were pretty adamant that shooting all and any of them resulted in an over population of rabbits, deer, and other small game that cause problems in cropland. How one would tell the difference, I'm not sure, since it's doubtful they watch over their calves on a daily basis. 
Thoughts?


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## Bruce

My GUESS is that if there is plenty of natural prey, the coyotes will go after that rather than go through/over fences to get livestock of whatever nature. "Bad" coyotes would be the ones where there isn't enough natural food and they are going to eat even if it means risking contact with humans and their livestock.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> My GUESS is that if there is plenty of natural prey, the coyotes will go after that rather than go through/over fences to get livestock of whatever nature. "Bad" coyotes would be the ones where there isn't enough natural food and they are going to eat even if it means risking contact with humans and their livestock.


Perhaps, but that's not what they were saying. Even when small game was plentiful, there were certain packs of coyotes that seemed predisposed to go after livestock, while others, even in bad years wouldn't. These are large tracts of land..a section is one sq mile--640 ac so I don't think contact with humans  was an issue. Genetics is thought to play a part in it.


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## Southern by choice

I asked my son... he is a hunter but also a licensed trapper that also deals with nuisance animals etc... he looked closely at the pics 
His opinion.. the head was cut off and there were signs. I can't copy the pic but when I enlarged it he pointed out the tell tale areas that say "head was cut off"
There are two very distinct areas that show cut. I mentioned nothing just pulled up the pics and asked what animal would do that. 
He said, that was cut off.

People who hunt regularly trap and track generally have a good idea of these things. 


@greybeard  I have seen a lot of info about coyotes and in some areas they found if hunted heavily they will produce more pups. Some areas it seems that coyotes have learned to live the easy life and will not go after wild prey but prefer the easy kill... dogs, cats, livestock.  
Eliminating the coyotes and equating that with other wildlife resulting in over population IMO has merit however I think the bigger issue is we have a culture that is anti hunting. Let everything live, vegans and ARA throwing their idiotic nonsense in the mix is never useful.

I also look at how awhile ago (last year sometime) there was this video that had millions of views extolling the wolf and how once the wolf came back to the park they saw all these other animals flourishing. People were all goo gaa over it. Problem, NOT TRUE. Several universities looked at all the info all the data and showed this not only to be false but pointed to the real reasons for revival of certain species. They published the truth. Nope, public didn't care, not shared... just stuck there with no notice.


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## Bossroo

One of my neighbors owns 400 acres and 100 cows.  When a cow lays down to give birth , the coyotes sneak in and start to eat the nose and face off of the calf while the rest is still in the cow.  He and his foreman would bring in the cows to a corral and barn to give birth and take turns to night watch and shoot coyotes that come in to eat the calves alive. Another neighbor that lives next door to the catleman has 20 acres and has 40 ewes.  Between him and I , we kill about a dozen coyotes per year and hang their carcasses on the fence (as a deterent to their kin but this has little effect), that come to kill the lambs . Another cow rancher about a mile away owns 5,000 acres and has 250 cows.  He invites a number of his friends every fall to shoot coyotes for a week.  They kill over 75 coyotes every year for the last 20 years which helps to lessen his calf losses.


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## High Desert Cowboy

Sorry late comer here.  Looking at your pictures I have to agree that whatever killed your lambs was a predator of the two legged variety.  Having seen my fair share of predator kills, as well as scavenger meals, I’ve never seen a head removed so cleanly and taken while leaving the rest of the body intact.  A predator will go for meatier parts of the body, and scavengers will start with the softer pieces like viscera.  So unless you’ve found a chupacabra, I’d really make sure you hide those cameras well.  These aren’t hungry or desperate people, as again they would’ve taken something meatier.  This was someone either being destructive for no reason or they were looking for something specific, graybeard mentioned recipes online requiring lambs head.  Growing up I remember a neighbors cow was found stabbed multiple times and then beat to death for no reason what so ever.  Some people are just evil and take lives for no purpose other than boredom.


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## greybeard

High Desert Cowboy said:


> Some people are just evil and take lives for no purpose other than boredom.



Absolutely true. We see proof of that in the news, way too frequently.

I can certainly accept that the lamb's head was cut off by human but it again brings up the question of  unless it was shot first, how did they catch it?

Bossroo..I've seen and done the carcass hanging on the fence thing myself with different types of undesirable wildlife. I don't think it does a bit of good but it's been done for decades with everything from snakes to buzzards to wolves & cougar and coyotes. ('Most' of the time I saw it, it was very conspicuously done on a fence right next to a public highway, so I don't think it was solely for warning or deterring the surviving  members of predator families.)


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## Bruce

High Desert Cowboy said:


> or they were looking for something specific, graybeard mentioned recipes online requiring lambs head.


Which is really sad since the original reason for recipes of that type was to not waste any of the animal when food wasn't so easy to come by for most people. Instead they take the head and leave the rest?


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## soarwitheagles

I am still waiting for my new trail cams to arrive.  I did mount an older model Primos Truth Cam but the quality of the pictures is quite low and I think I need to increase the sensitivity of the motion detection.  So far, we see some cats, a coyote, a fox and a raccoon.  

I will increase the sensitivity on the motion detection and mount it again tonight.


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## Bruce

greybeard said:


> Perhaps, but that's not what they were saying. Even when small game was plentiful, there were certain packs of coyotes that seemed predisposed to go after livestock, while others, even in bad years wouldn't. These are large tracts of land..a section is one sq mile--640 ac so I don't think contact with humans  was an issue. Genetics is thought to play a part in it.


So if people seriously go after the coyotes that kill livestock, the population of same SHOULD decline, right? I suppose it could also be "nurture", mama shows the kids where to hunt and what to eat. If mama shows them rabbits, they eat rabbits. If she shows them lambs, they eat lambs.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> So if people seriously go after the coyotes that kill livestock, the population of same SHOULD decline, right?


Yes, according to the doctrine of 'good coyotes vs bad coyotes'.


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## babsbag

I know of someone in VT that has a trapper come in for coyotes but there is one Coyote that never bothers their livestock and her thought is to leave that one in his territory so that a livestock killing coyote doesn't move in. IDK, sounds risky to me. 

I hang dead rattlesnakes on the fence for the buzzards to eat; not to deter anything.


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## Pastor Dave

Scrapple and head cheese were made with leftover bits found on the head or in it, but was an attempt to use every last bit of the carcass for meat. To take a head and leave the carcass seems like they needed something for ritualistic means. It used to happen in the late 80's and early 90's where I grew up. However, the abandoned houses with the head left behind as well as painted pentagrams, salt, blood, etc was found too. I know this has been mysterious and of some worry, but I pray your cameras do not reveal any two legged beings on your property. If that is the case, they were not hungry. Because I have a degree in both Law Enforcement and Divinity, I have helped with occult cases in the past. The experienced groups are neat, clean, and have legal sources for obtaining animal parts. Kids or sloppy inexperienced members create scenes and mysteries that could draw attention.


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## Bruce

babsbag said:


> I know of someone in VT that has a trapper come in for coyotes but there is one Coyote that never bothers their livestock and her thought is to leave that one in his territory so that a livestock killing coyote doesn't move in. IDK, sounds risky to me


But IF the non livestock killing coyote isn't going to let any other coyotes into its territory, maybe is isn't so risky after all?? But they are pack animals so I suppose if there was just the one left, eventually others would join it.


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## soarwitheagles

Just found two "dens" adjacent to our property, not more than 20 ft. from our property line.  These were dug within the last week, fresh as can be, fresh dirt.

Each entrance appears to be 9"-11" in diameter with nearly .05- .1 yards of freshly dug dirt.  This took a lot of work to do...

Does anyone have any idea what they are?

Thanks,

Soar


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## Baymule

Well, it ain't a two legged Satan worshiper. Did that help you narrow it down?

I know, I know, always gotta be a smart a$$ in the bunch........


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## Latestarter

That's not coyote... too small. My guess would be the fox you took pictures of.


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## farmerjan

I will say that several trappers in this area also subscribe to the "good coyote/bad coyote" theory.  We had observed a coyote behind the calving field at the one farm.  For 2 years we never had a problem but most of the ground hogs disappeared...YES....
Then one of the fall hunters shot a big coyote while deer hunting.  Owners permission, not ours.  Since then we have been plagued by coyote problems there, going after and killing 2 calves 2 years ago and have actually chased one out of the field while the cow was trying to clean up a new calf.  Was in the tractor feeding and no gun in the cab..... I do believe that the big one had the territory staked out and was satisfied to co-exist with the cattle. The ones that seem to have moved in are in a bigger pack and are fair game to any and all out there with a gun.

Have had coyotes in the field near my house and some nights they are quite loud.  Then won't hear them for weeks.  I assume they are making the rounds of their territory.  Haven't had any problems with them with the chickens.  The skunks, possums and raccoons are another story.  The cattle we have in the field closest to where I live have calves that are 2-3 months old and not something a sane coyote would tackle.  Most cows there don't like dogs so a coyote is fair game too.


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## Pastor Dave

Looks too big for badger too. Fox is a good guess.


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## Southern by choice

Fox den more than likely.
Tonight my son uploaded his game cam.
So COOOOOOOOOOOOL! So the Beavers are wreaking havoc. It was really amazing to see this beaver chew the tree down, and drag it away. Amazing thing to watch. Problem is it took so many trees you wouldn't believe it. Of course not all thos treees in one night. But to see that was cool. They are causing major issues at the creek. Then hours later... here comes one of the "regular" coyotes... then toward morning the deer. Missing one antler. Like in that movie Open Season I think his name was Elliott. 
Squirrels and coons are always on there... but the beavers are amazing. Can't believe how strong they are.
I know it isn't on your subject but wow... just so cool. I love my LGD's. My livestock stays safe and nature gets to do it's thing.


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## Bossroo

I would point a trail camera at the 2 den holes to see what it could see as to the owner of the den.  I wouldn't discount a badger just yet !


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## greybeard

Southern by choice said:


> Fox den more than likely.
> Tonight my son uploaded his game cam.
> So COOOOOOOOOOOOL! So the Beavers are wreaking havoc. It was really amazing to see this beaver chew the tree down, and drag it away. Amazing thing to watch. Problem is it took so many trees you wouldn't believe it. Of course not all thos treees in one night. But to see that was cool. They are causing major issues at the creek. .. but the beavers are amazing. Can't believe how strong they are.


I've been waging war on those spawn of satan for 3 years now.  They're incredibly destructive. I don't mind the tree cutting too much but the dam damming up stuff has to stop...and the burrowing is even worse. All those sharp pointed stumps are a tire and hoof hazard all their own tho. Took these pics less than a week ago.









There shouldn't be but a tiny trickle of water in these pictures.
I've taken them with conibears, foot traps, snares and  10 ga slugs and .270 and they keep coming up out of the river to my pond and it's drainage to plague me.


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## babsbag

A badger hole is wider than it is tall...a fox hole is taller than it it is wide.


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## OzarkSerenityAcres

Could be momma fox teaching her youngins to hunt. Then opportunist badger took the head. Just a thought!


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## Mike CHS

We have Ground Hogs that dig holes about that size.


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## farmerjan

Y


Mike CHS said:


> We have Ground Hogs that dig holes about that size.


Yeah, big enough to have dropped a tractor front wheel  (on a big 2 wd tractor)  in and break a spindle;  to the tune over $1,000 to replace.  Here they will dig big holes both in the field and along the woods .  Straight down and in the side hill.


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## Bruce

I would also guess fox or groundhog. I think the groundhog holes I've "suffered" (fortunately haven't broken anything yet) are a bit smaller than that so I'll vote fox. 



Baymule said:


> I know, I know, always gotta be a smart a$$ in the bunch........


But Bay, that is one reason why we  you!


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## babsbag

No groundhogs in CA. Ground squirrels, yes, but they don't make dens like that. You could break an ankle in a ground squirrel hole but not likely that a tractor would fall in one.


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## greybeard




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## Bruce




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## Silky ma

_Soar with eagles,
One predator not yet discussed yet- go to BFRO site. Ca - im in placerville/ ca has a healthy population of bigfoot.
Yes they do exist and the signs are there if you know what to look for.
As our weather warms activity increases.
They use forested/ BLM areas to cross onto
Populated farms where small animals are easily snatched. They dont always leave tracks. They dont like trail cams!!
Signs to look for
Crossed branches / young green trees
Foot prints. Rocks thrown at you, growling shaking of bushes young trees- howling etc
_


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## greybeard

http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=11987
2nd incident was on or very near my property, tho I didn't live on site at the time. (E. Fork San Jacinto River is my east property line and FM 2025 is approx 3/4mile as the crow flies from my house. The river never crosses FM 2025 but does cross FM 945, which intersects 2025 1/4 mile East of the river) Brother and I read this account and concluded the prints they saw were from us working on the river fence a day or 2 earlier in muck boots and the noises were from my father working late at nights on a big barn. We were both on property working the last 2 weeks of May 2005. The barn is located 2000' to the West of the alleged site, but a big bluff is present on the other (East) side of the river and sound bounces off it and makes it sound as if the noise is coming from the river area, not from the west. 

We've had this property since 1964 and I can honestly say I have never seen or heard any evidence of a 'Bigfoot' existing here. (or anyywhere else for that matter)


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## Pastor Dave

Imagine the sounds your Dad was hearing coming from the two researchers while he was just quietly(or apparently not) working on the barn! 

Additional thought: Dad whacked thumb with hammer and howls in pain, then gutteral cursing. Goes back to some more hammering.


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## Jennifer Hinkle

First I am sorry that this happened. My husband and I have had experience with this same issue. We found out that it was a mountain lion. We found tracks around our sheep pen and the woods. Our neighbor got pictures of it on his game cameras.


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## Jennifer Hinkle

Baymule said:


> As our preacher once said, being a Christian doesn't mean that you have to take bad treatment from others and smile like you like it, when you don't. He also goes armed and believes in protecting his family and flock.


Amen! I will always along with my husband will always Protect our family and flock.


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## Latestarter

Many people say that... Not many (thankfully) are ever put to the test. It's very hard to imagine yourself staring down a threat to your life and being willing and more importantly ABLE to pull the trigger and take a life... Some heavy stuff there.


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## Goat Whisperer

Latestarter said:


> Many people say that... Not many (thankfully) are ever put to the test. It's very hard to imagine yourself staring down a threat to your life and being willing and more importantly ABLE to pull the trigger and take a life... Some heavy stuff there.


Very true!


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## Bruce

Wise words @Latestarter


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## babsbag

I hope I never have to find out if I am up to the challenge. When I had children at home I had no doubt that the mama bear would have prevailed or died tryin'.  But I will tell you that I came very close to shooting a grey horse in the predawn hours one time. I was home alone, new to this area, gravel roads, no fences, dogs barking like crazy and yet backing up, no one answering when I yelled "who's there" and hearing crunching gravel, and could make out a dim shadow of something moving that was about 6' tall. My new neighbors would have thought that this city dweller transplant had lost it for sure but thankfully the sun kept rising and I could finally see what the "threat" was. I felt pretty dumb.


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## frustratedearthmother

About 20 years ago, my then middle-school aged daughter, got on the school bus one morning and I went back to bed.  Twenty minutes later I hear something downstairs...doors opening and rummaging around.  I grabbed my pistol and start sneaking down to see what the heck is going on.  I made it downstairs while still hearing all sorts of noises, peer around the corner, pistol at the ready only to find _my daughter_ back home looking for something she'd forgotten.  (The bus route made a loop and on the way back they let her off to run in and find her forgotten item.)  As soon as I saw it was her I had a total meltdown.  I was well-trained enough with a firearm to make sure I looked before pulling the trigger - but it was enough to shake me to my core...


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## greybeard

Target recognition..target acquisition..bullet placement..............in that order, and in that order of importance.


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## frustratedearthmother

greybeard said:


> Target recognition..target acquisition..bullet placement..............in that order, and in that order of importance.


Amen!   To this very day I still tear up when I think of the horror that it could have been.


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## Bruce

And forgetting that first one is why hunters shoot other hunters.


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## Pastor Dave

It sounds like you confronted the threat without being reckless. You did not fire on it without knowing what it was. It turned out different and much better than you had suspected and expected. You were able to stand down.

Your dogs probably had never experienced any beast that huge. Being from the city, yah they were backing up. It had to be quite a frightening experience for both you and the dogs. Sounds like you did everything just right.

I have not been in the armed forces and therefore, never been in a war setting. But, going with very practical and tactical training on knowing ones target and not shooting until seeing and identifying the target, you did exactly right. In war, the unknowns may be different than domestic and civilian targets. Firing into an unknown or blind area at the enemy may keep someone alive. Idk. I will never know.


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## Latestarter

In the "heat of the moment" the mind plays tricks unless you are well trained and know what to expect. Fright alone can incapacitate. The adrenaline is pouring into your system, the fight or flight instinct is making you unstable and many times the shooter "sees" exactly what he/she is "expecting" to see, whether that's the case or not. It's training that is the key. You have to learn what to expect and then prepare for it.

I'm sorry Soar... it seems like once again your nice neat thread has diverted and slid "off target". 

Any further game cam evidence to share?


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## Baymule

Looking for Bigfoot.......


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## soarwitheagles

Yep, off the theme of the original post...and I am probably most to blame for it...my bad.

Well, time to redirect back to the original theme...finding and dealing with the predators...

The high tech game cams arrived and I have finally received the SD cards and rechargeable batteries too.  Hope to mount the new game cams this weekend.

Checked the super old game cam...

Mostly the same thing...foxes, possums, cats.

But I did notice a pic of a blur of an animal [it appears as if it was running full speed].  This animal appears much larger than the others...

Anyone care to guess what it is?

I was thinking it is either a coyote or a dog...

What are your thoughts on this one?

PS The newer cams are probably gonna give us much, much better pics...
PSS Last weekend we patched a hole where an animal or animals had recently dug underneath the fence.
PSSS Large wind storm took down several trees, one of which took out a section of fence.  This is a priority project for tomorrrow...
PSSSS We are looking for a puppy LGD.  If anyone knows of a good deal, please let us know.  Thank you!


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## soarwitheagles

Wow, just came back from the forest and found a lot of trees down from the last storm.  One even damaged a fence.  So I will have my work cut out for me tomorrow.

Also, just a few minutes ago, another ewe gave birth.  Last year, all lambs were born in the forest.  This year, all lambs are being born in the pen because of the predators and also due to lack of rain/grass.

Wow, what a difference between last year and this year...day and night...


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## greybeard

soarwitheagles said:


> Yep, off the theme of the original post...and I am probably most to blame for it...my bad.



I don't see it as a problem if you don't. Most threads evolve if they last very long and every since I've been on the internet, I've always said any thread I happen to start is not mine. The second I click 'submit..or post reply' it becomes the property of the board's community at large.
If I was really all that interested in keeping it where I wanted it, I'd just keep it to myself to begin with.

Looks like a Primos game cam?


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## Baymule

Looks like a coyote to me. @babsbag has a new litter of puppies!


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## babsbag

Definitely canine of some kind. Last weekend, in the middle of the day, I watched two sassy coyotes clear my neighbors 4' fence as if it wasn't even there. I had always heard that they can do such feats and I had always wanted to believe that they were rumors. They did not climb the fence, they soared right over it. I LOVE my dogs and they were sassing those 'yotes right back.


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## Bayleaf Meadows

Eucalyptus trees? Where do you live?


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## Pastor Dave

Looks like a coyote.
Appears you will have plenty of firewood coming up. Now,  just saw, split, stack, and allkw to cure. Even if you don't use firewood, it sells pretty well in some parts.


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## soarwitheagles

greybeard said:


> I don't see it as a problem if you don't. Most threads evolve if they last very long and every since I've been on the internet, I've always said any thread I happen to start is not mine. The second I click 'submit..or post reply' it becomes the property of the board's community at large.
> If I was really all that interested in keeping it where I wanted it, I'd just keep it to myself to begin with.
> 
> Looks like a Primos game cam?



Yes, it is a very old Primos and the quality of most pics are crappy.  Today I will mount the Browning and the Akaso.  Should be seeing much higher quality of photos...



babsbag said:


> Definitely canine of some kind. Last weekend, in the middle of the day, I watched two sassy coyotes clear my neighbors 4' fence as if it wasn't even there. I had always heard that they can do such feats and I had always wanted to believe that they were rumors. They did not climb the fence, they soared right over it. I LOVE my dogs and they were sassing those 'yotes right back.



Good to know...and I sure hope we can purchase a pup soon!



Bayleaf Meadows said:


> Eucalyptus trees? Where do you live?



Yes, Eucalyptus trees...good eyes!  These are the Blue Gum variety also called the _Eucalyptus globulus.
_
It is considered an invasive species...at our location they were planted for the purpose of furniture, rail road ties, etc. back in 1903-1907.  Unfortunately, the wood twists and cracks during the drying process so it is no good for furniture.  Sure makes good firewood though...most of my buyers tell me it is much better to burn than oak and this surprises me...

It is a bit strange...they call it blue gum I think due to the color of the leaves...but the inside is bright red immediately after cutting/splitting it.

Oh, we live about half way between Sacramento and Stockton, CA.



Pastor Dave said:


> Looks like a coyote.
> Appears you will have plenty of firewood coming up. Now,  just saw, split, stack, and allkw to cure. Even if you don't use firewood, it sells pretty well in some parts.



Yup, we cut and split over 70 cords in the last 6 months.  I still have another 100 or so cords to go...it is very good exercise!


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## Pastor Dave

Real pretty woodgrain


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## Mini Horses

Pretty wood -- and a LOT of it!


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## babsbag

Eucalyptus is the BEST firewood there is. When I lived in the Bay Area it was always on my "I want"  for our wood stove. Where I live now we have oak, lots of oak since I took out a lot of trees for my dairy. Also I will cut an oak down to "goat height" and let it branch out so the goats can browse the new growth, I call them lollipop trees and then I get to burn the part I cut off. They just keep branching out year after year so it is a perennial browse of sorts. Of course I never do this to the old majestic oaks, just the scrub oaks that are too close together to ever grow to a decent size. I don't think I will run out of firewood in my lifetime here.  If I do, I know where Soar lives.


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## Mike CHS

Looking at the grain on that wood I would think you could almost watch that wood twist.


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## Bruce

Not blue gum but pink bubblegum!



Mike CHS said:


> Looking at the grain on that wood I would think you could almost watch that wood twist.


Looks like something you want to split before it dries too much. Though it looks like it splits pretty straight, not like elm which twists and is very "stringy", burns well though. 



soarwitheagles said:


> Oh, we live about half way between Sacramento and Stockton, CA.


If you put that in your profile we don't have to (hope to) remember


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## soarwitheagles

Thanks Bruce! I updated my profile to show Sac County.

Regarding cutting and splitting eucalyptus firewood...

I have learned the hard way!

1. Cut when the wood is green [as in, within the first couple of days of felling the trees].  When we first moved here, there was 30 cords of large, dry, three year old eucalyptus trees on the ground.  I went through 30 chains in 30 cords!  If you cut eucalyptus wood when it is fresh and green, I am not joking, it is like butter and I can buck up 3+ cords a day for days on one chain without sharpening it if I do not nick the ground!

2. Split the eucalyptus wood when it is dry!!!  Splitting eucalyptus wood when it is green requires nearly double the amount of time, places much more strain on the hydraulic splitter [we actually bent the massive steel slide on our first splitter due to the wet wood strain], requires a lot more physical strength and energy [wet eucalyptus wood is much more heavier than dry], and wet eucalyptus wood has no cracks [stars], so you cannot even read the round for correct splitter placement.

Here, most people like 14"-16" pieces and we have actually had people drive all the way from Lake Tahoe, picking up 4 cords at a time...

Finally, one of my goals is to thin out the never before thinned forest.  We invited UC Davis AG experts here.  They told us the forest has never been touched [exactly what our neighbors told us too, and they have lived here 30+ years].  So the UC Davis AG experts informed us that if we thin out the forest a number of things would occur:

1. Reduce the extreme fire hazard.
2. Allow much more sun light in.
3. The forage tonnage would increase up to 4 times.
4. It will look nicer.
5. I would lose weight and not have to diet so much.
6. I would no longer need to go to the gym.
7. I could enter the Mr. America contest.

Ok, I added number 5, 6, and 7, but in all honesty, UC Davis people assured us of 1-4.

PS I estimate 100+ cords of wood after thinning the forest.

PSS I still believe there must have been a large fire many years ago in our forest because 100+ year old eucalyptus trees would have a much larger trunk diameter [I am presently finishing a wood cutting job a few minutes away from here and the property owner has some eucalyptus trees with a 12+ ft. diameter]!

PSSS In our forest, I see signs of a fire that appears to have occurred a long, long time ago...and most of our euc trees average 12-18 inches in diameter.

PSSSS I found this equation online...but not so sure how accurate it is...

Enter the *tree's* diameter in centimeters, then press the carrot button (^) and enter "0.98." Press the "Execute" ( button. The number that appears represents the approximate *age* of the *tree*. For a *tree*with a 30-centimeter diameter, the result is 30^(0.98), or 28 years.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...ome..69i57.23725j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## Bruce

12 foot diameter??? How does one cut that down without a double handle logger saw or a LOT of chopping with an axe??


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## Wehner Homestead

What year does 12 ft diameter come out to? I’m on a cell phone and can’t get my head around figuring that capably at the moment.


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## Bruce

I think "older than before the first eucalyptus was imported from Australia".
The rough answer is 365 years, started growing in 1653. Which we know is impossible since they were first introduced in the 1850's.

If there was an error claiming a 12' diameter and he meant circumference the tree would be about 116 years old which IS quite possible.


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## soarwitheagles

People tell us that tree was the largest in our neighborhood.  How to cut?

10 feet up from the ground, the tree trunk was only 8 ft. diameter.  That is where the tree was cut.  The larger part of the trunk and stump is still there.  I will do my best to take some pics and show it to you.  Most of the other trees on this job we did were over 4 ft. diameter.  Under normal circumstances, according to the formula, these 4ft. diameter trees are about 110-120 years old.

And now the part I forgot to mention...and I quote:

*Eucalyptus grow so fast in U.S. Department of Agriculture plant hardiness zones 8 though 11 that you can't use the standard formula for determining a tree's age based on its diameter. *

And we are in zone 9b...so I suppose it is impossible to determine the age of these eucs other than analyzing the historical data.

BTW, here is where I found the formula:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/determine-age-eucalyptus-trees-circumference-69036.html

Hope this helps!

BTW #2 In parts of our forest, many of the trees are smaller diameter than the 12"-18" I quoted earlier.  Yet you visit other areas of the forest and sure enough, we have the 3 ft. diameter trees.

I have been told they were planted in the early 1900's.

Quite a story too...

Here's a good historical article that focuses mostly on the southern California adventure with the eucalyptus tree.

https://www.kcet.org/shows/lost-la/who-eucalyptized-southern-california

Enjoy!

PSS And here is a very sad story from southern cal regarding a large blue gum within city limits that was not monitored carefully...OUCH!

https://www.ocregister.com/2013/08/27/newport-pays-1-million-to-family-of-woman-killed-by-tree/

Gotta be careful around the blue gum...every year we have 20+ trees fall and many more large limbs break and fall...


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## Bruce

Man talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time


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## Bossroo

We have some friends that own a farm about 50 miles from Soars. When their 5 foot diamater Euk. fell during a wind storm- it crushed and totaled their brand new car  and split their house in half.


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## Bruce

Seems like maybe their safe lifespan is something under 100 years.


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## Baymule

Sure is pretty colored wood. Reminds me of the red cedar we have growing on our place.


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## soarwitheagles

Bruce said:


> Man talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time



Well, always dwelling on the brighter side of things...it happened so quickly she probably didn't feel a thing.



Bruce said:


> Seems like maybe their safe lifespan is something under 100 years.



They aren't safe when they achieve heights of 30 ft. or more...wanna know why?  Even in the summer time, large 8"-20" diameter branches will suddenly crack so loud it sounds like a rifle shot, and then they fall to the ground.  Such breakages are known to horticulturists as "sudden limb failure" or "summer branch drop." The causes are not fully understood.

Here's what some of the "experts" at UC Davis say about it...

"For some reason, this often happens in hot, calm weather in the afternoon, or after such weather," said Richard Harris, a professor emeritus of landscape horticulture at UC Davis and one of the few acknowledged experts on the phenomenon.

"We believe it [sudden limb failure] has something to do with moisture content. But we don't really understand it because the most common time for it to happen is in the afternoon when large branches can be many pounds lighter than in the morning, when they are filled with moisture."

Such accidents kill an average of one person a year in California and injure many more, according to Allison Berry, assistant professor of environmental agriculture at UC Davis, who is coordinating a three-year study of the problem.

And this is why I always say 10 Hail Mary's and 25 Our Father's before going out into the forest! Ok, not really, but I do ask the Lord to protect me...



Baymule said:


> Sure is pretty colored wood. Reminds me of the red cedar we have growing on our place.



Bay, I totally agree!  Wish we had more of that cedar here!  It grows abundantly about 50 miles from us up in the Sierra's...and the cedar sure smells wonderful!


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