# New mini rex litter..advice needed



## parkersmom120106 (Jan 18, 2011)

Hey all

I'm going to try and keep this short and not write a novel. I'm sure the answers to my questions are elsewhere on the board, I'm just nervous and want to know what to do here lol. 
I finally got my first litter of mini rex babies today. I tried all summer with no results, I'm guessing because of the heat. Anyway..I must have put this doe in with the buck and then didn't write it down because I don't remember breeding her. She had 4 kits on the wire this afternoon. I'm pretty sure they were born not long before we found them because one still had a little blood on it and the does hind end was still wet and there was a little blood on her leg. Luckily it was warm out today. All 4 are active and seem healthy. I put them in a cat litter pan with pine shavings. She didn't pull much hair so there wasn't much to put in there with them. I have 2 other does I bred on the 26th..today I was actually going to check them and try to find what I could use for a nest box besides the expensive pre-made metal ones. I don't know what I should do for the babies. Mom has hopped in and out of the box several times, sometimes roughly. She actually thumped and hopped out fast. One of the babies has a little scratch on it. I don't know if she's being too rough. It's supposed to be 52 tonight..should I bring them in? Can anyone advise me here? I want these babies to make it. I used to have rabbits about 15 years ago when I was a teenager and had horrible luck with my litters not making it. I've done so much reading and thought I knew what I was doing. All that went right out the window when I saw these babies. Ugh...


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## TigerLilly (Jan 19, 2011)

It's been a while since I've had rabbits, but when any of mine "thumped' they were upset about something. Personally, I would leave them in the pen with her and see how the night goes. I used wire boxes with hay in them, but as long as it's not cedar shavings in there, what you have may be ok, but I would put newspaper in the bottom. I've had some does that didn't bother to pull fur to make a nest until after the kits were born. If you have any others that you don't remember breeding that deliver today or tomorrow, you could put the kits with the other does if this one doesnt seem to be a good mama. Has she been bred before or is this her first litter?


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 19, 2011)

Well...I check them this morning and we had lost one. The other 3 are still active and moving around, but I can't tell if she's fed them. Their bellies aren't big, but it's 11am..so she may have fed them earlier this morning. I put a heat lamp on in the cage last night because they aren't staying covered in the nest and she still hasn't pulled any fur. They're staying warm with the light though. This stinks..my other 2 aren't due til next week. I don't know anyone that breeds rabbits. There are other breeders in the area though. Maybe I could put a craigslist ad up and see if any have a doe that could foster these?


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## PattySh (Jan 19, 2011)

They sometimes go for awhile without feeding them right after birth. I'd just leave her be and see what happens. Changes in her cage (adding the strange box) might have upset her. Try to save hair from a few litters if you can (or pull some off a rabbit you butcher), you can add to nests if you ever have to.


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 19, 2011)

Well..another doe had babies today. I think I figured out what happened. I have 3 mini rex does. I put 2 of them in with the buck on the same day, but didn't write it down. I could have sworn I did it on the 26th of December, but it looks like it was earlier than that. I was also mistaken on which does I put in with him. Ruby and Jana had babies, but thought I put Jana and Michelle in with the buck (yes I have started naming my rabbits after the Duggars lol). This is an example of why keeping records is sooo important. Luckily I put nest boxes in with Jana and Michelle when I found Ruby's babies, so Jana had babies in the box. She pulled plenty of fur and everything. It looks like there's 3, but she may still be having them, so I'm leaving her alone. 

So as far as Ruby and her babies...they don't appear to have been fed. They don't have fat bellies and they're squirming around the box. When I checked this morning one had died. I tried to hold Ruby in the box, and the babies went nuts trying to find a nipple when I put her in there. Ruby wanted no part of it though. I'm thinking of putting them in with Jana's babies. My only issue is that Jana's nest is really messy. There's no afterbirth that I see, but the bedding is wet and yucky. Should I take the fur out and replace the bedding then put all the babies and the fur in the box and give them back to Jana? Maybe rub Jana's fur on Ruby's babies?


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## terri9630 (Jan 19, 2011)

I don't know anything about fostering babies, but I use a covered cat box as a nest box.  The does seem to like it and it gives them somewhere to hide when the babies start comming out of the box.  At least until they can hop up there after her.


     The covered cat boxes are about $20 at walmart but I found 2 of them at the local flea market for $5.  I just brought them home and cleaned them with bleach.  My buck has one to and he loves hiding in it.  It's like a little cave.


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## DianeS (Jan 19, 2011)

For Jana's nestbox, I'd give her an hour or so to see if she cleans up the mess herself. If she does not, I'd remove anything wet/damp but leave the rest alone. You can add fresh bedding if you need too after the wet stuff is gone. But don't take out any dry bedding unnecessarially. 

You may have to force Ruby to stand still for the babies to nurse. That might be your brst bet at this point. If she has milk and you can make her stand still (I'm thinking one hand around front legs, one hand around back legs, and don't let her move...) then both batches of babies get what they need without all having to be crowded in with just one doe. 

If she will not cooperate with that, you may want to flip Ruby over on your lap and hold her still that way. She'd have less room to move. Then you can hold the babies up to her to nurse while she's upside down. Not ideal at all, but still possibly better than 6 babies on one mother. See if it works. If the babies get what they need then its OK. 

If nothing works, then putting all 6 in with Jana should be better than trying to bottle feed any of them. If you do that, I've heard that you should do something to Jana to make it difficult for her to smell for a couple hours - a drop of vanilla extract on her nose should do the trick. Then quickly add the new kits to her nestbox. By the time she can smell again, all the babies will have been together for a few hours and will smell similarly.

Hang in there! I had a litter recently that the mom rejected, and she didn't have milk so I couldn't force her to feed. I eventually had to foster them out with someone I had never met. (They're doing fine, 10 days old today.) Hopefully something from my experience helps you!


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 19, 2011)

terri9630 said:
			
		

> I don't know anything about fostering babies, but I use a covered cat box as a nest box.  The does seem to like it and it gives them somewhere to hide when the babies start comming out of the box.  At least until they can hop up there after her.
> 
> 
> The covered cat boxes are about $20 at walmart but I found 2 of them at the local flea market for $5.  I just brought them home and cleaned them with bleach.  My buck has one to and he loves hiding in it.  It's like a little cave.


I was thinking those would work well too. I'll keep my eyes out for them. 

Jana (the 2nd mama) seems like a better mom than Ruby. She had 3, but one was dead..of course it was the blue one.  She was actually in the box with the babies, and had pulled lots of fur to make a nest. I took a handful of fur and rubbed it all over my hands and then rubbed in on Ruby's babies. The nest wasn't as messy as I thought so I left the bedding alone. I put Ruby's babies in with Jana's and put the box back in with Jana. She hopped right in, sniffed the babies and then sat there calmly. So far, so good. Lets hope that she takes care of everyone.


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## terri9630 (Jan 19, 2011)

6 isn't a big litter and one doe should be able to feed them with no problem so I wouldn't worry about that if you need to add the 3 to the other litter.  My smallest litter has been 5, largest was 11.  

     I've read that some will put vanilla on the doe or kit and others say it's not necessary.  It depends on the doe I guess but it wouldn't hurt to rub the foster moms hair on them.


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## terri9630 (Jan 19, 2011)

parkersmom120106 said:
			
		

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You need a big cage for these things to fit, I use 2 1/2'x4' wire dog kennels for my rabbit cages.  You can kinda see the cat boxes here.  I also use a horse feed pan as a litterbox since the kennel has a solid floor.


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 19, 2011)

terri9630 said:
			
		

> 6 isn't a big litter and one doe should be able to feed them with no problem so I wouldn't worry about that if you need to add the 3 to the other litter.  My smallest litter has been 5, largest was 11.
> 
> I've read that some will put vanilla on the doe or kit and others say it's not necessary.  It depends on the doe I guess but it wouldn't hurt to rub the foster moms hair on them.


I may have jumped the gun with putting them together, but I really don't think that Ruby is taking care of these babies. She doesn't seem to want anything to do with them. Jana is actually in the box with the babies and paying attention to them. I figure they have a better chance with Jana. I probably should have used the vanilla, but so far so good. Jana doesn't even seem to notice that there are more babies in there. Plus, since she lost 1 there were only 2 babies left in her litter..I'm thinking that with Ruby's 3 they will stay warmer. So there's a total of 5 in there.


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## terri9630 (Jan 19, 2011)

Does only feed once or so a day so even if they seem to be ignoring the kits they could still be caring for them.    I'd give her another chance if it was her first litter.  In the wild the doe only goes back to feed and stays away all day/night so she doesn't attract predators to the kits.


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## tortoise (Jan 19, 2011)

It's probably too late to foster them out, unless by some miracle they got colostrum within 12 hours of birth.  If they didn't get colostrum before 12 hours after birth, you can expect them to fade and die in 'bout 4 days.

Of course you would/should try, but don't get your hopes up too high.  

I think a lot of new rabbit breeders screw up by messing around with newborn kits.  Leave them alone.  Let nature sort them out.  You will end up with a healthier herd in the long run.



> but still possibly better than 6 babies on one mother


Nah, 6 is a small litter.  A doe that produces fewer than 6 in a litter (with the exception of the first litter and litters produced during winter) should be culled.


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## DianeS (Jan 19, 2011)

tortoise said:
			
		

> It's probably too late to foster them out, unless by some miracle they got colostrum within 12 hours of birth.  If they didn't get colostrum before 12 hours after birth, you can expect them to fade and die in 'bout 4 days.


What? None of my abandoned kits got colostrum until they were fostered out almost 48 hours after birth, and they're still going strong at 10 days old. 



> > but still possibly better than 6 babies on one mother
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> Nah, 6 is a small litter.  A doe that produces fewer than 6 in a litter (with the exception of the first litter and litters produced during winter) should be culled.


Do MINI rabbits still have 6 or more in a typical litter? The woman fostering my angoras raises mini lops and mini rex, and only ever has 2-4 per litter. I was under the impression that was typical for the mini breeds - is that not true?


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## therealsilkiechick (Jan 19, 2011)

no that is not true. my mini rex have anywhere from 4-9 per litters. my hollands 6-9 per litters. none of my does small breed or larger have ever had under 4 per litter to me 2-4 is not the normal.


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## tortoise (Jan 19, 2011)

DianeS said:
			
		

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Go ask your vet.  I am spoiled enough to have free access to vet care 24/7.    So *I* can't explain the science of it.  

I tried to save an abandoned litter.  We took my biggest 2 rabbits down to the vet clinic, draw blood and spin out the serum.  Give the serum orally.  But we didn't get it into them until 10 hours after birth when the gut was already "closing."  I continued giving the serum after the 12th hour just in case it might get absorbed, and then changed to a milk replacer.  I kept them in an incubator.  I did not sterilize the syringe or milk replacer.  In hindsight IF I cared to try again, I would do that too.  They faded off at 4 days, which would be expected for a baby that doesn't get colostrum.

Clearly it didn't work.  

But that momma sure tasted good in the crockpot!   

I really do believe that bad mommas shouldn't be bred.


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## therealsilkiechick (Jan 20, 2011)

here is a link for fostering orphaned bunnies with lots of good info- http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/orphan.html

they can survive without colostrum but chances r slim they need that to protect them from bacteria and stuff. without it they can get alot of things that can be lethal to them and it may not be right away u see it or they develope it.


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 20, 2011)

Well I lost 3 more babies...now we're down to 2..1 from each of the does. I got home from work late last night and checked on them...even bundled up in the nest they got cold. I turned on a heat lamp in the cage and rubbed the 2 living ones to warm them up. They're still alive today. I don't understand this..I'm in Florida..it's not even that cold. I'll have to do some major replanning before I try to have any more litters. I wonder if I should set up some cages in the shed to move the moms into before they give birth.


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## Bunnylady (Jan 20, 2011)

For as long as I've bred rabbits, I have believed that they put their heads together when I'm not looking and ask each other, "How can we drive her crazy today?" I have had litters "freeze" at 50 degrees; it's always the best-marked baby that gets out of the nest and dies on the wire; I've had does that managed to mess up every which way the first time out. When I decided that I couldn't stand to see one more cold, dead litter, I began moving my does into my hall closet at kindling time. Believe it or not, most don't seem to mind! I also routinely "kitnap" the whole litter, only bringing them out to momma a couple times a day to feed them. I have had a few does that kindled in the nest box, pulled plenty of fur, and then didn't seem to know that they had to nurse the kits. I usually tell people that anything you get off of a first litter is gravy, because most does manage to blow it somehow on their first attempt. If I have a doe that gets everything right the first time, I give extra consideration to her daughters as replacement does!


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## tortoise (Jan 20, 2011)

Bunnylady said:
			
		

> I usually tell people that anything you get off of a first litter is gravy, because most does manage to blow it somehow on their first attempt. If I have a doe that gets everything right the first time, I give extra consideration to her daughters as replacement does!


Very true.  Breeding qualities are just as hereditary as color and type.  Choosing to breed rabbits that need to be coddled is like shooting yourself in the foot - repeatedly.  It's gonna hurt you for years to come!

I am lucky to have gotten some hardy stock and I fully intend to keep my herd hardy and low-maintenance.  "Survival of the fittest" is my motto.

Yes, it hurts a little bit that a doe that produced beautiful babies was the one that didn't have milk.  (The babies I so wanted to save - not to breed but to sell off for $$$).  And my best doe was homozygous for the broken gene.  Yuck.

But stick to the goals of your breeding program, don't comprimise because of money (loss of imagined sales) or emotion.  And you will accomplish your goals!


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 21, 2011)

Well..so far so good on the last 2. I've been keeping them under the heat lamp. They're both still alive, have grown and are starting to get a little more fur. They appear as if they're getting fed. They are sleeping calmly and their skin is tight like they're hydrated. I haven't seen really rounded bellies, but I check late in the morning so I probably miss it.  Looks like Ruby's baby is going to be red booted like her mom..there's reddish fur on the body and the legs are pink. Jana's baby I'm not sure. It's fur is a light bluish, silvery, skin is pink. Jana is an Opal and the father of both is blue. I know we're not out of the woods yet, but I'm feeling better about it!


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## Bunnylady (Jan 21, 2011)

A doe's milk doesn't really come in until about day 3. With a first time doe especially, the babies will often seem to be just barely getting enough for the first couple of days. If the kits are growing and don't look hollow and empty, she's doing her job. Probably tomorrow, you'll suddenly notice that they look like they've swallowed white marbles! I'm rootin' for ya!


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## dbunni (Jan 21, 2011)

terri9630 said:
			
		

> 6 isn't a big litter and one doe should be able to feed them with no problem so I wouldn't worry about that if you need to add the 3 to the other litter.  My smallest litter has been 5, largest was 11.
> 
> I've read that some will put vanilla on the doe or kit and others say it's not necessary.  It depends on the doe I guess but it wouldn't hurt to rub the foster moms hair on them.


Let us all remember that every breed has a different "normal" for litters.  For a Mini Rex, 6 is a big litter.  For a NZ or EA, 6 is a small litter.  Smaller breeds often have smaller litters ... we have worked with several smaller/dwarf breeds (MR, HL, Thriants, AFL) and the average size of litter was 4.  A litter of 2-3 was very normal.  Rarely did we see a litter over 4.  Personally, I would not push a large litter on a MR, but this is just my opinion.  Encourage new mom's to do their mommy thing!


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## terri9630 (Jan 21, 2011)

dbunni said:
			
		

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My friends mini rex has had 2 litters of 7 and one of 8.


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 22, 2011)

Another update..the last 2 babies are still alive and seem to be thriving. They both have grown and are getting more hair in. They also both have big round tummies today, so they are getting fed. Mama Jana is getting alfalfa hay and strawberries as treats and lots of lovin for being a good mama!  I've been keeping the heat lamp going all the time so they don't get chilled. How long should I keep it on? I was thinking til their a couple weeks old and have their eyes opened and more fur.


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## parkersmom120106 (Jan 23, 2011)

Here is a picture of the babies with their nice full bellies!  The one on the bottom looks like she'll be red to me. I have no idea about the one on top. Any ideas? I know it's hard to see his/her color in the picture. The mama to that one is either opal or blue otter. There's a picture of her there too because I'm not positive what her color is called.


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