# Copper bolus



## Judy-Ron (Jan 2, 2020)

I have a question that I can't seem to get a good answer for.  We have a four month old wether that has had free choice loose minerals with 1350ppm  minimum and 1600ppm maximum of copper since he has been here (eleven weeks tomorrow).  I have read that one can tell when they have a copper deficiency when they exhibit something called fish tail...  Rascal seems to have lost a significant amount of hair at the tip of his tail that looks very much like the pictures of fish tail that I have seen.  There is no sign of hair loss around the eyes as of yet.  I do have the 2g capsules on hand for ruminating kid goats but have been reluctant to give any as I am not exactly comfortable giving it to him if he doesn't need it.  The vet doesn't seem to think it's a big deal but I'm a nervous mama when it comes to treating my kids with something I'm unfamiliar with.  Does anyone have some advise for me?


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 2, 2020)

Can you show a picture...I just gave 4G to my pregnant does...they didn’t have fishtails, but I saw the tip of the one tail...but, you have to give copper to pregnant does.  But I’ve been reading so much about it, I might be able to help.


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 2, 2020)

I'll try to get a picture of his tail tomorrow.  He's not too bad but I want to be sure he's getting what he needs...  Thanks I'll post it as soon as I can.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 2, 2020)

Before we had to sale our goats i have ours copper every six months both does and bucks. it's a need mineral and depending on were your at its not in our soil, we also have selenium to help since we don't have that in our soil as well.


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## Daxigait (Jan 3, 2020)

I give Multimin 90 twice a year since it has all the minerals together(1cc/100) in addition to free choice minerals both the local MFA one, and vitaferm concept aid since I have found sometimes they want the one and sometimes they want the other. So I make sure they're both always there.  I have found since making the vitaferm available and offering free choice Sericea lespedeza that I have had less worm problems.


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## LMK17 (Jan 8, 2020)

I give a 4g copper bolus to all my adult boers each time I hoof trim them (about 4x/yr). They also receive free choice goat minerals and occasional pelleted feed with added copper. The cooper oxide wire particles inside the capsules sit in the goats' digestive systems and are absorbed slowly over time. Based on the research I've seen, the copper boluses don't pose a significant risk of copper toxicity in goats.

Additionally, there is evidence that the copper particles act as a natural dewormer to inhibit barber pole worms.

Lots of research here: https://www.wormx.info/copper-oxide-wire-particles


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 8, 2020)

LMK17 said:


> I give a 4g copper bolus to all my adult boers each time I hoof trim them (about 4x/yr). They also receive free choice goat minerals and occasional pelleted feed with added copper. The cooper oxide wire particles inside the capsules sit in the goats' digestive systems and are absorbed slowly over time. Based on the research I've seen, the copper boluses don't pose a significant risk of copper toxicity in goats.
> 
> Additionally, there is evidence that the copper particles act as a natural dewormer to inhibit barber pole worms.
> 
> Lots of research here: https://www.wormx.info/copper-oxide-wire-particles



Do you have a lot of Stoney areas in your pasture area? I have to trim hooves more often....but, no stones...


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 8, 2020)

You can look up ’average concentration of elements in’. Your county...it will bring up a website with the US...you click on your county and it lists your exact elements...I wrote all of mine down..so that I know..if we have good selenium here...good copper, good iron, etc...that might be helpful


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## LMK17 (Jan 8, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Do you have a lot of Stoney areas in your pasture area? I have to trim hooves more often....but, no stones...



Our goats roam about 18 acres. The front pastures are good and free of rocks, but we also have several acres of woodlot, and a creek bed runs through there. Lots of rocks in the woods & creek, so that does help with hooves. That said, I think the ideal trimming interval would be somewhat shorter than what I do, though we haven't had any real problems with seasonal trimming.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 8, 2020)

I’m new with my goats...and some people had me obsessing over everything...I’m calmer now...phew!


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## LMK17 (Jan 8, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> You can look up ’average concentration of elements in’. Your county...it will bring up a website with the US...you click on your county and it lists your exact elements...I wrote all of mine down..so that I know..if we have good selenium here...good copper, good iron, etc...that might be helpful



That's a really good start and definitely worth checking out. Just keep in mind that soils do vary, even within a single property. It's also a good idea to know water concentrations of minerals from whatever water source you use for irrigation & your stock, and to keep in mind that some minerals can interfere with the uptake of others.


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## LMK17 (Jan 8, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I’m new with my goats...and some people had me obsessing over everything...I’m calmer now...phew!



It's easy to freak out. Been there. In actuality, though, our soil hasn't been tested for something like 7 years (it is on my spring to-do), I know my my feeding and supplementing system could use some refining, and like I said, my goats probably could use an extra pedicure or two a year. Still, my animals are thriving. I'm certainly not suggesting getting sloppy, and I think one should be open to learning all the time, but at the same time, I don't think it's reasonable for one farmer-- especially a small, diversified one with an off farm career-- to know all.the.numbers.all.the.time. For me, I feel like I can make up for some lack of knowledge by getting to know *my* animals and *my* land well. I get eyes on all my critters at least one a day and try to get hands on them too. I walk my land a lot, taking in the details like whether the grass is flourishing or whether I'm seeing more/different weeds popping up. It helps me to know when something changes, and then I can go in and figure out what to do about it, rather than trying to be a walking textbook.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 8, 2020)

LMK17 said:


> For me, I feel like I can make up for some lack of knowledge by getting to know *my* animals and *my* land well.


True words!!


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 8, 2020)

LMK17 said:


> It's easy to freak out. Been there. In actuality, though, our soil hasn't been tested for something like 7 years (it is on my spring to-do), I know my my feeding and supplementing system could use some refining, and like I said, my goats probably could use an extra pedicure or two a year. Still, my animals are thriving. I'm certainly not suggesting getting sloppy, and I think one should be open to learning all the time, but at the same time, I don't think it's reasonable for one farmer-- especially a small, diversified one with an off farm career-- to know all.the.numbers.all.the.time. For me, I feel like I can make up for some lack of knowledge by getting to know *my* animals and *my* land well. I get eyes on all my critters at least one a day and try to get hands on them too. I walk my land a lot, taking in the details like whether the grass is flourishing or whether I'm seeing more/different weeds popping up. It helps me to know when something changes, and then I can go in and figure out what to do about it, rather than trying to be a walking textbook.


Very true.  We just just started this farm one year ago exactly, and have everything expect cows and sheep basically..oh, horses...lol.  It’s a hobby farm....but we are lucky to be retired young.  We probably got too much too soon, so im learning fast and hard.  But it’s a true passion..but, it’s also how I got a bit overboard...ugh!  But this forum is great


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 8, 2020)

LMK17 said:


> I give a 4g copper bolus to all my adult boers each time I hoof trim them (about 4x/yr). They also receive free choice goat minerals and occasional pelleted feed with added copper. The cooper oxide wire particles inside the capsules sit in the goats' digestive systems and are absorbed slowly over time. Based on the research I've seen, the copper boluses don't pose a significant risk of copper toxicity in goats.
> 
> Additionally, there is evidence that the copper particles act as a natural dewormer to inhibit barber pole worms.
> 
> Lots of research here: https://www.wormx.info/copper-oxide-wire-particles


My little guy (ND) is only 4 mos. old and he already is showing fish tail and his fur is rough and bleached out in less than a month from when we got him.  He weighs 25 lbs so I bought the kid size (2g) bolus and gave him one about five days ago.  So far his fur seems softer but I don't see any change in his coloring or in the tail.  I know it is a slow release but did I give him enough and how long should I wait to give him more if he needs it?


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 8, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I’m new with my goats...and some people had me obsessing over everything...I’m calmer now...phew!


Good idea, we live in Central Florida where the soil is very poor.  It's mostly sand and has no copper or selenium so we have to feed loose minerals. But the copper apparently isn't enough for them so I did get a 2g bolus for kid goats.  I just didn't want to overdose him.  If I need to give him more I'll know in a few weeks.  I'm not sure myself how much they need here...


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## LMK17 (Jan 8, 2020)

Since he's so young, I wonder if he had a congenital copper deficiency? He seems healthy and energetic? Head up, tail up, bright eyes, and all that? Here's an article on copper deficiency that touches on deficient kids, in case you haven't already seen it: https://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/copperdeficiency.html

Any chance he's wormy? Or has lice or other parasites? Both those things can cause a rough looking coat and missing hair, and it's always a good idea to consider all possible diagnoses. I know you mentioned your vet. Has the vet seen the goat or run any tests?


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 8, 2020)

LMK17 said:


> Since he's so young, I wonder if he had a congenital copper deficiency? He seems healthy and energetic? Head up, tail up, bright eyes, and all that? Here's an article on copper deficiency that touches on deficient kids, in case you haven't already seen it: https://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/copperdeficiency.html
> 
> Any chance he's wormy? Or has lice or other parasites? Both those things can cause a rough looking coat and missing hair, and it's always a good idea to consider all possible diagnoses. I know you mentioned your vet. Has the vet seen the goat or run any tests?


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 8, 2020)

Yes, he's very active, tail up spunky and running around like a 4 month old should...It's just the symptoms that I've noticed that makes me think he's copper deficient.  He had a vet check on Dec 30, fecal clean, good weight, ears had dirt in them but no mites or lice found by vet or me..  He did have coccidia present in fecal so I did drench him with Toltrazaquil that afternoon and will repeat in 10 days.  Other than that he's just peachy!


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 8, 2020)

i would just wait for a while you shouldn't (as far as i know) give it again until six months from now. i imagine it take longer for the damaged hair to either heal or grow out.


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## LMK17 (Jan 8, 2020)

Yeah, sounds like everything I can think of has been ruled out except for copper. I am surprised that he went from totally normal looking at his vet appt to fish tailed and bleached out in just over a week though.  The very didn't notice any signs of copper deficiency, eh? If not, then he's going downhill pretty quickly. I'd consult the vet about the need for a blood test for mineral levels and possibly a faster acting supplement.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jan 8, 2020)

i second blood test if your able


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 9, 2020)

I can feel the difference in his coat.  It's much softer than it was last week...  I also give them free choice loose minerals with copper in it..  I think I'll wait at least three months before I evaluate and see if he needs more....  That way I can consult my vet as well.  They are due for a fecal in February so I'll ask him about bolus timing on Rascal.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 9, 2020)

Judy-Ron said:


> I can feel the difference in his coat.  It's much softer than it was last week...  I also give them free choice loose minerals with copper in it..  I think I'll wait at least three months before I evaluate and see if he needs more....  That way I can consult my vet as well.  They are due for a fecal in February so I'll ask him about bolus timing on Rascal.


Is it a good brand of loose minerals?  I was told..not sure this is true..but told that the Wind storm and rain from TS sold in cattle section is really good and has basically all their regular needs.   Plus...I’m sure you already know this...but just keep a bit out so it doesn’t absorb moisture...and refill often...but, I’m sure you know that...  oh, why don’t you take a pic of his tail so everyone on here can see and , maybe it’s not as bad as you think?  I’ve done that before.


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 9, 2020)

We use Purina goat minerals.  It has 1350 ppm minimum copper to 1600 ppm maximum.  It's what we get from our feed store..


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## SaanenMom (Jan 14, 2020)

Judy-Ron said:


> He had a vet check on Dec 30, fecal clean, good weight, ears had dirt in them but no mites or lice found by vet or me..  He did have coccidia present in fecal so I did drench him with Toltrazaquil that afternoon and will repeat in 10 days.



Before dosing Toltrazaquil a 2d time, have the vet do a fecal. Toltrazaquil is a one dose medication and I have found that is all that is needed as a rule. 
Laura


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## Judy-Ron (Jan 15, 2020)

Wow, thanks!  That stuff is expensive and if I don't need to drench him again that'd be good.  Most of my other goat people say to hit them a second time.  Our vet's pretty reasonable about doing fecals so I guess that's the way to go..


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