# Keeping Meat Rabbits



## BoboFarm (Jan 12, 2018)

I'm new to the site and to keeping rabbits. I've been looking up information on keeping meat rabbits and I would like some advice. I'm going to build a 10' x 20' rabbit shed with a concrete floor. I want two trios of Californians or New Zealands. I want the does in each trio to be littermates so I can keep them colony style. I would keep the bucks alone. The does would be transferred to the buck pen when I want them to breed. I plan on a 3.5' x 6' pen for each buck and a 6' x 6' pen for each pair of does. These pens would be directly on the concrete floor with a layer of straw or pine shavings. I do not like the idea of keeping them in a wired cage. If I had to I could split the doe pen so that each doe would have a 3' x 6' pen. The pens would have 5ft walls of hardware cloth between them. I plan on processing litters at about 10-12 weeks of age.

Here are my questions:

Does the amount of space per rabbit sound ok?
Does anyone have experience keeping rabbits in a concrete floored pen? If so, what are the pros and cons?
Do I need a growout pen? Or can litters stay with mom until processing without the fear of the bucklings breeding sisters or back to mom?
Should I give access to outside in a covered run with buried hardware cloth?

It gets fairly warm in the summers with daytime temps reaching 100 for at least a few days and staying over 90 for much of the summer. I plan on having a swamp cooler in the shed for those really hot days. We don't have to worry too much about humidity problems as it's extremely dry here in Nevada. There would also be plenty of ventilation and windows. I think the concrete would help keep the rabbits cool in the summer and will allow for easier cleaning.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 12, 2018)

Sounds like you have it fairly thought out except the does will determine dominance and fighting is almost inevitable. I personally don't like colony style.


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## promiseacres (Jan 12, 2018)

Pens a plenty big, could definitely divide to keep does seperate. Some have successfully had colonies but space and areas where they can get away seems to help. Rabbits that are raised in a colony do better than typical cages. If you plan on rebreeding after kits are weaned then definitely reccomend a grow put cage. Mom needs time to recover and won't have same nutritional needs.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 12, 2018)

Thanks for the replies, @Pastor Dave & @promiseacres 

If the does decide to not play nice I will separate the pens. I do not plan on back-to-back breedings. Since I plan on processing at 10-12 weeks, is it ok to keep everyone together? What age will rabbits start breeding? If necessary, I guess I could put a hanging cage in the back of the doe pens to keep weanlings in until it's time to process.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 13, 2018)

If I get busy and can't butcher at 10 weeks, the litter gets sexually active at abt 11-12 weeks. I usually like to wait 6 mos to breed a young doe. Her prime is really only up to abt 2-3 yrs old. Many can go til 4. I wait abt til then on my bucks too; 6 mos. Different opinions vary according to producer and breeder. 

If the doe is not separate from the buck, like in a colony setting, he will rebreed her right after kindling. She will not have time to let her litter wean before kindling the next. I generally do 4 or 5 litters per doe yearly. Some do 6 or more, but it wears them out fast. 

In reference to your earlier post, Promiseacres has it right. I am sure the rabbits prefer more free range atmosphere like chickens. I just believe the control the breeder has is greatly limited. The rabbits and kits would be way more timid and probably hard to catch. Females are the dominant sex and will fight for space and dominance. This is all things breeders have witnessed and reported. I am not experienced in this. I guess I just prefer my methods for what I am trying to achieve.


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## Bossroo (Jan 13, 2018)

Pastor Dave said:


> If I get busy and can't butcher at 10 weeks, the litter gets sexually active at abt 11-12 weeks. I usually like to wait 6 mos to breed a young doe. Her prime is really only up to abt 2-3 yrs old. Many can go til 4. I wait abt til then on my bucks too; 6 mos. Different opinions vary according to producer and breeder.
> 
> If the doe is not separate from the buck, like in a colony setting, he will rebreed her right after kindling. She will not have time to let her litter wean before kindling the next. I generally do 4 or 5 litters per doe yearly. Some do 6 or more, but it wears them out fast.
> 
> In reference to your earlier post, Promiseacres has it right. I am sure the rabbits prefer more free range atmosphere like chickens. I just believe the control the breeder has is greatly limited. The rabbits and kits would be way more timid and probably hard to catch. Females are the dominant sex and will fight for space and dominance. This is all things breeders have witnessed and reported. I am not experienced in this. I guess I just prefer my methods for what I am trying to achieve.


2X,  also, thing of all of the pathogens that are hiding in the wet urine spots, feces piles, and other hidy holes.  Then the resulting Vet bills as well the much longer time to grow to weaning waight. NOT worth it just to satisfy some fantasy notion.


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## Bunnylady (Jan 13, 2018)

I know some folks manage to keep colonies, and are happy with the results; I have never tried it (not on the floor, at least). My specific concern is the concrete floor. Concrete is porous, and some of the urine is going to soak into it. Before long, you may find that the shed always has a slight (or maybe, not so slight) ammonia smell. There may be some product that can be used to seal the floor, that is safe for constant contact by animals, but I don't know what it is. Something to look into, at any rate.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 17, 2018)

I have the same concerns as everyone who responded so I will not relist what has been said, but I will add two:

Depending on the concrete finish itself, which would probably tend to be a bit slick from a rabbit's point of view, you might end up with some or all your kits developing splayed legs. Not much meat on hindquarters of a splayed-leg fryer. Also, I would think it would not be that good for the legs and hips of the senior rabbits either.

I would think that cleaning would be more labor intensive and need to be done more frequently rather than less as having them up on wires.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 17, 2018)

I'm back after a long, busy weekend.

@Pastor Dave I will be waiting until the does and bucks are 6 months old before breeding. I also plan on processing does and bucks after three years of breeding. Bucks won't be kept with does because I want more control of breeding. I don't want does to be perpetually pregnant. I'll be caring for them twice daily whether they're in cages or on the ground so I don't know how much more timid being in a colony will make them. They're not going to be pets so I don't need a cuddly bunny to spend time with. 

@Bossroo The concrete will have a layer of pine shavings that will help absorb urine. I'll be in the shed twice a day to spot clean and replace shavings as needed. I don't believe this is a fantasy notion of mine. I believe animals in our care should be respected and cared for with as much consideration for mental health as well as physical health. I am making the decision to keep them for my own use. The least I can do is make them comfortable. I don't think living in a cage is comfortable so I'm making the decision to try something different by keeping them in a pen with a bit more space and something softer to bed down in. If it doesn't work then I'll change it up. Trying a colony is in no way saying that those that keep their rabbits in cages is wrong, just not for me.

@Bunnylady Thanks for your insight into the smell in the concrete. We have used kennel sealer for our dog kennels in the past and plan on using it for the rabbits. 

@Tale of Tails Rabbitry The sealer that we use is non-slip. Why would cleaning be any different in a colony vs in a cage?

I understand I'm going against conventional thinking here but, as I said above, I believe I can give my rabbits a better life by keeping them out of wire-bottomed cages. I've had dogs all my life and would not think for a minute to keep them in a cage the way rabbits are conventionally kept. That would be akin to a puppy mill. I don't mean to play devil's advocate. I'm just trying to learn and get  opinions.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 17, 2018)

I am sorry you feel that you that we have been discouraging. Truth is...*I actually would LOVE for your concrete floor idea to work well!* I just think that there is a reason that it is not commonly done by rabbit keepers with far more experience than I have.

I also have reservations because we once tried a "non-slip" but smooth surface kind of thing well covered with hay in a nesting area and ended up with about a 1/4 to 1/3 of the kindles developing with splayed legs. I know it can be a birth defect, but it was not. The kits were not born that way and we never had it before or since breeding the same rabbits on wires. What will happen is that the pine shavings will get moved around and they will be directly on the concrete. If it is non-slip enough, it will not cause the problem. If it isn't, you will know.

Also, if a rabbit gets spooked or is just frolicking on a surface too slick, it can injure its back. The second rabbit I had as a pet did this and was paralyzed from it. I could see a rabbit taking off, sliding on the pine shavings quite easily.

From my experience with both, I would say that a dog handles smooth "non-slip" surfaces much better than a rabbit. A rabbit has fur covering its paws completely, so they will tend to slip and concrete does not allow them to have traction with their nails either. I think you would do better to lay wire down on top of the concrete, but that might undermine your what you were hoping to accomplish.

As to cleaning, you just described that you could be spot cleaning and replacing soiled pine shavings up to twice a day. When rabbits are up on wires, this is not a common necessity, so that is a big difference. I think I have to watch with a couple of cages because those rabbits pull more hay down than they eat and it can build up in a corner that will get soiled, but that happens at most about once a week in between our deep cleanings.


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## Bunnylady (Jan 17, 2018)

You have to understand - Bossroo had some very unpleasant experiences with colonies, and saw first-hand the parasite and disease problems, as well as horrific rabbit-on-rabbit aggression. In fact, most people who have been in rabbits for long can tell tales that can curl your toes. As a result, we tend to cringe when we see people insisting that rabbits are social, and are only "happy" when kept in groups.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 17, 2018)

@Tale of Tails Rabbitry I'm here to learn. I just want to try something different is all and I wanted your opinions knowing I was going to get some push back. I'm asking why you think one way over another not to be a pain, but to learn. Maybe this won't work out for me but if it does, maybe it'll help someone down the road. If it doesn't, then I can say why it didn't work and it'll save others from going through the trouble.

@Bunnylady I wish Bossroo had shared their experience so I can understand that. If my does turn out to be aggressive I've already stated that I have the space to separate their pens. Why would being in pens on concrete vs in a wired cage increase parasites and disease? I can see how that may be more of a problem on dirt in an area that has more humidity and moisture but on concrete in Nevada (think such low humidity your nose will bleed)? Again, I'm not asking questions to rile everyone up.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 17, 2018)

@BoboFarm I understand and it really is not meant to be "push back" but rather opinions based on our experiences, which obviously vary. I have found that people tend to have the strongest opinions BECAUSE of their experiences. 

I also do not see rabbits in cages as a cruelty as long as they are properly cared for. My rabbits have roomy cages were some can see each other but not be threatened by the others. They act like they feel safer in their cages and I spend time with them, hand feeding them greens that they love. When I get them near the open door, they are ready to jump into their cage, their space, their home. 

I wish you well with your endeavor and I truly mean that. I personally would have no desire to even try it based on my own experiences, just with any kind of smooth, hard flooring alone and especially with a bedding material that they can so easily slip on as well. In my opinion, the rabbits would be too likely to injure themselves. Been there, done that, WON'T do it again. (Opinion, not push back.)


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 17, 2018)

I guess in the end, all you can do is try it for yourself and see If it works and you like it. Believe me, giving you our experiences and even disagreeing with one another is in no way meant to be obtrusive or offensive. Folks disagree with me all the time. That's what we do on here, give feedback, our experiences and opinions.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 17, 2018)

I respect and value your opinions and experiences! I know nothing about keeping rabbits other than having them as pets when I was a kid. I will be asking MANY more questions as we get closer to getting rabbits!


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 18, 2018)

@BoboFarm Then may I make one suggestion? Before you go foward with your plans to set everything up, place a rabbit on the type of surface you would have and watch how it walks. If its legs are sliding out to the sides unlike it would on a carpet or the ground or it is constantly twisting the paws out from the body that would be bad. If not, then try the same thing after you have covered the same surface with pine shavings.

I can guarantee you that the rabbit's legs will slip out, but you need to see it for yourself. The repetitive movements will eventually cause a mature rabbit's legs to weaken and be more susceptible to injury. It would be like living in space for a human; we can do it but our bodies change because we really do need gravity to be healthy.

Back to the experiment: A mature rabbit will try to compensate by pulling in the legs tightly to the body and making smaller movements. A kit will sprawl to the point that its tendons will be stretched out so that it cannot bring the legs in at all. This could happen with just one leg, both front legs, all the legs, or any combination. For us, the front legs were effected the most, but they did not develop well in the hindquarters either.

Basically, anything that gives a rabbit traction is something they will try to eat. They will even pull on the wires. That is why we only use galvanized after weld wires for the floors. I had rabbits pulling apart the floors with the galvanized before weld wires which are cheaper.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 18, 2018)

@Tale of Tails Rabbitry I was looking on youtube at different cage types and I noticed some use stacked cages with vinyl flooring. Vinyl is smoother than a broom finish on concrete and the rabbits didn't seem to have a problem slipping. What flooring did you have that caused splayed legs? I can try the experiment when we get the concrete and seal done. We'll do concrete regardless of having pens or cages.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 18, 2018)

@BoboFarm Could you provide the link? Most of the examples with vinyl flooring I have seen were for mature pets, not breeders with kits, and in large areas I have seen they are usually provided grass mats or the like for traction.

Depending upon the grade of vinyl, it has some cushion and can be impressed. Rabbits nails can give them some traction on vinyl. Even so, my second rabbit was an litter box trained, indoor pet. He slipped on vinyl that was non-slip type one morning and lost the use of his back legs and control of his bowels, stopped eating, and died within a week. The vet, which was a vet for small and large farm animals also, told me it was not uncommon, which is why he strongly was not in favor of rabbits being raised on hard or smooth floors of any kind.

The two kindles with some developing splayed legs were on a material similar that was piled high with straw in the nesting side of our brood cage, which was my husband's idea. The kits, of course, moved the straw around until they were on the bottom. They did not have the necessary traction to develop correctly. Some did better than others but a significant number had at least two splayed legs.

Concrete is not the same as vinyl and vinyl is risky enough. While some people think that wires are not good, I do not have rabbits with sores on their paws. We do provide our rabbits with warming pads, which are turned off on warm days. These pads allow them to be off the wires if they desire to be, but they rarely are on them except in the winter. The wire flooring is really not as bad for rabbits as people make it out to be.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 18, 2018)

@Tale of Tails Rabbitry I was watching a gal's videos on her rabbitry, Hook's Hollands. She has them in stacked cages with a solid vinyl floor. She had does with kits in these cages. During one video she had several rabbits running around on the concrete and I didn't see a problem. When we had our pet rabbit as a kid we let her run around in the garage and outside on concrete with us on a daily basis. She was also on laminate flooring in the house. We never had a problem. She was a Flemish Giant. I used to work as a vet tech for many years. I started in a small animal practice. The vet that I worked with did not like rabbits on wire cages because of the sore hocks we saw on a very regular basis. I also worked in a medical research facility for a few years. Rabbits were kept in wire-bottomed cages. A new gal was in her second week of training and she mishandled a doe that was being transferred to a buck's cage for breeding. The doe jumped in his cage and blasted around the cage for a minute until she broke her back. For some reason the doe got spooked. She had been bred several times in the past with the same buck with no issue. My point is I think accidents like that can happen with any kind of flooring.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 18, 2018)

@BoboFarm Her cages are not that small but she has a nesting box, a litter box, and a mat--that provides traction--in each one that I saw on her video so they are not doing a lot of hopping in them. She has smaller rabbits than the heavier meat rabbits, but I did notice that the rabbits left out to run for a short time on the concrete floor inside did tend to slip a leg outward when they were not hopping in a straight line and they are not on that surface every day and even when they are it is just for a few minutes. The concrete outside, when she place them in pens, is a rough finish that works much better for traction. However, I am thinking that would be hard to clean all the crevices and it could also cause sores on the hocks because it is such a hard rough surface, but she does not leave them out on that surface all day either. I like that she provides her rabbits a variety of surfaces throughout the day. I also noticed that she is not using any pine chips on any those surfaces. Lastly, I did not see any of her kits walking in the vinyl so you still have not seen what I am talking about.

Did you not notice how animals slip on smooth surfaces when you worked with the vet?

On a side note, I had to laugh at her toilet paper roll hay feeders which are cute for small rabbits but...well, my rabbits would starve.

As I always say, no two rabbit keepers have the same set up or do everything the same, but I think her set up is rather labor intensive, which is fine because that is the way she wants it. I rather spend more time with my buns than spend so much time cleaning.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 18, 2018)

@Tale of Tails Rabbitry I do agree that how she keeps her rabbits seems very labor intensive. I laughed at the toilet paper rolls too  The concrete inside looked to be smooth and the outside concrete looked to have a broom finish, which is what I plan on having. The sealer that I've used will seal broom finished concrete and still leave traction. I've used it in kennels and have never had a problem with dogs slipping. Have you ever used aspen or pine pellets with your rabbits? I wonder if several inches of that would be better than shavings.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 18, 2018)

I use pine pellets in my catch pans. My feed/hardware store lady told another customer that I used them for my rabbits, but she failed to tell her my rabbits have no contact with the pellets. So, she bought some and put her rabbits on them. They ate them and all died. I don't know what others would do. I can't imagine shavings being much better either. I don't know.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 19, 2018)

@Pastor Dave beat me to it. I think that if you are going forward with this, you might want to consider not using any kind of absorbents on the floor on which they could slip or try to eat and try a litter box with wires on top like she has. I actually was going to suggest that before I saw the video, but forgot. Rabbits are easy to train to a litter box.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 19, 2018)

I've read a bit more on different bedding types. With that knowledge and with what you guys are saying I think we're going to skip the shavings and look more at litter box training. Our pet rabbits were litter box trained and it didn't take much at all. We figured out which corner they liked to use as a bathroom and stuck a litter box there. Thanks @Pastor Dave and @Tale of Tails Rabbitry 

On to some of my other questions:

I was planning on getting two trios. I've been calculating approximately how much meat we will expect if we breed each doe four times a year. That's a lot of meat! We will have chickens too. We rarely eat red meat and if we do it's pork. That's maybe once a month. So with chicken and rabbit being our primary meats I still don't think we're going to consume all that much. We are a family of four (with an almost 3 year old and an almost 4 year old). Can anyone give me an idea of how much rabbit meat they eat in a week?

I was initially looking at Californians but I may be leaning towards NZs. Is one more heat tolerant than the other? Does one have larger litters? Is one easier to handle than the other? I had a friend that had a Florida White, his name was Bunz. Does anyone have experience with them as a meat rabbit?

What do you guys do with hides? We have Tandy Leather outlet in town that sells hides for $9.99 each  and she said they sell a lot of them! Clearly there's a market for them here but how would one #1 tan a hide and #2 advertise them? I've heard of tanning with brains, egg yolks or alum. Does anyone have experience doing this and is it worth the time and effort? I've read that a hide from a 10 week old fryer is too soft and not worth tanning at all. Some recommend the rabbit be over a year old to get a good hide. Opinions?


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 19, 2018)

We eat rabbit abt once a week. It just depends what we want to eat: fried, grilled, barbecued, crock pot slow cooked and made into casserole or with noodles, etc.
I had two trios and was stacking up in the freezer, so before winter culled a trio and down to just one. 

I too agree with an older specimen on the hides. Young rabbits have tender hides hard to scrape without punching holes. Alum works ok, but brain tanning is oretty easy. The Native Amercians would say each animal's brain is the size needed to tan its hide. I used pork or beef, whatever was available. A blender makes a giid brain smoothie. I just did one batch in the late 80's. Haven't wanted to since. I throw mine away. If you vsn freeze them, and offer to someone wanting green hides, may have something.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 19, 2018)

@BoboFarm You are welcome. 

There are three of us, but one is gone a lot. When everyone is home, we eat rabbit about once to three times a week. I like my bunny burgers, but ground rabbit must be mixed with something more fatty, like ground beef, because there is not enough fat to make it stick together well on its own for a burger. I really love making rabbit stew or mock pot pie in a crock pot for church dinners and see the look on people's faces when we tell them is it not chicken. Fun times!  

We started with just two NZW does and one NZW buck and we had plenty of meat, but then my does never had less than 8 kits and usually 10 to 12. We even feed our dog raw meat and bones, but rabbit can be too rich as a regular diet for dogs, so rabbit meat and organs (and dead newborn kits) was more of a supplement. Why not start with just one trio and see how that goes as you can always add more later? The only problem with having just a trio is being sure that you either breed your own replacements or have a breeder where you can purchase them. If inline breeding is something you want to avoid, you will need to get replacements from another breeder.

I believe that Florida Whites are a bit smaller than NZWs and Californians and the more heat tolerant, from what I have read as I do not have any experience with them. New Zealand Whites were good enough for us as to the heat where we had them. Even my Silver Foxes have tolerated the summers where we have them, but we do not breed any of rabbits in the summer and we do use fans on the hottest days.

There is no market for rabbit hides here unless you have a huge commercial operation that can meet demands of a wholesaler. Homesteaders are not consistent enough to bother with and even then most want to buy _tanned _hides for about $1 each. So, I have tanned a few for personal use that were probably still too thin skinned to do well, but I wanted to try it. I have tried a few tanning methods and do not really have a favorite yet, but I have not tried brains...I would not be opposed to trying it, once I had the brain, but I am not yet to the point that I can stop cringing about the extraction process of getting it. 

I really have not pursued using the hides to make much of anything yet, but I have a few creative ideas I would like to try when I am done with homeschooling my teenager, so for now I freeze my keepers and tan a few when I have the notion, saving them up for some grand creative thing(s) I will be making in the future.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 19, 2018)

It sounds like one trio will be the best to start with. I was thinking we'd eat rabbit once or twice a week. We'd probably be doing the same with chicken but I've already figured numbers for them. 

I'm not sure I'll be doing anything with hides. It seems like a lot of work without much return unless I use hides for personal use. 

I just contacted a breeder just north of me and she has NZW and NZR. The breeder that I contacted has a FAQ on her page and this is what she recommends to feed:

"Ideally you should free feed a commercially milled alfalfa pellet. When you choose a feed, it should have between 17% and 18% protein, no more than 3% fat, no less than 20% fiber, and no less than 4,800 IU/LB of Vitamin A. Those are just the basics. To get even more in depth, it should not include corn or yucca (or very little yucca). It should have Sun-cured alfalfa (unprocessed), unprocessed grains, and the minimum amount of vitamins and minerals that are needed to sustain life and maintain excellent condition. Avoid feeds that have processed ingredients which have meal, millrun, distillers, processed grain by-products, supplements, exess yucca, et cetera. Also completely stay away from the Timothy pellets. It does not contain the necessary nutrients the rabbit needs. 
Depending on your breed you may need to limit their feed intake, but ideally on breeds both big and small you should free feed the alfalfa pellets. You can occationally feed fruits, vegetables, and hay or hay cubes as a treat only.* Hay is not a good source of nutrients and only acts as a filler. Your rabbit will end up malnurished and will become ill* (personal experience). The fruits and vegetables do contain good nutrients for them, but too much of them, just like chocolate for us, is a bad thing. DO NOT feed any greens to a rabbit, with the exeption of dandilion greens and fresh picked grass. Greens such as lettuce, cabbage, celery, parsley, carrot tops, et cetera are toxic to them. There is an enzym in them that can kill a rabbit within 24 hours (again, personal experience). Don't feed tomatoes either. Although, you can feed rabbits, apples, bananas, carrots, watermelon, papaya, and strawberries."

What are your thoughts on not feeding hay? I see that a lot on here feed hay as a primary source of food. I even found a ranch down the road that grows Timothy, fescue and meadow grass mix for $12 for a 100+lb bale (as a newbie I have no idea how large that is ). I was going to ask what you guys thought of that and then I second guesses myself when I read what this breeder said. I'm asking anyway...


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 19, 2018)

I don't even know where to begin with this.

Does anyone ever eat the same things every day? I will guarantee you if someone did that person would become malnurished. I have been published research writer for nearly twenty years about health related subjects and diet for human beings. We eat things that could actually poison us IF that were the only thing we ate all the time or in mega doses.

Rabbits in the wild do not eat one thing, like hay, alone but a variety of things. If a rabbit was ONLY fed hay, the same kinds day after day, then I would think it is probable that it would become malnurished. If you feed a rabbits pellets only, it is going to need something to chew on to wear down its teeth and it will chew on anything in its cage or part of it, like bars, wood, etc. My rabbits do not chew on the cage wires.

I give my rabbits treats of cilantro, kale, celery, chard, spinach, carrot greens, dandelion leaves, violet leaves and flowers, strawberry leaves, etc. Basically, whatever is available, I just do not make those things the main part of their diet. 

The lady obviously has strong opinions based on bad experiences but she does not give enough information to understand what she did to know what happened exactly. It sounds like she fed them too much of certain things when she was not providing enough variety at the same time. That is never a good thing.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 19, 2018)

Thanks @Tale of Tails Rabbitry I thought it sounded kind of weird but I wasn't sure. I think a variety is important for most animals but I also know that rabbits can be sensitive, I guess so can any other animal depending on what's fed. So would you recommend free feeding the hay that I mentioned above and offering a certain amount of pellets daily? Then treats of select greens here and there? Does feed depend on life stages/sex? Would I feed grow outs differently?


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## BoboFarm (Jan 19, 2018)

I'm currently in contact with a breeder. What kinds of questions should I ask? One of her NZ broken red bucks just took grand champion at a show here in NV last summer. Her rabbits are pedigreed and quite nice looking. She said she commonly gets 5lb fryers at 12 weeks.


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## Pastor Dave (Jan 19, 2018)

If you feed straight alfalfa hay, you get no processed alfalfa, or processed meal, added vitamins, etc. It gives an average of 19% protein which can be too much,  but they will eliminate extra nutrients. They still need Vit A and minerals you can get from a wheel or cube. I use ACV in the drinking water that helps with Vit A. 

There are lots of good milled alfalfa-based rabbit pellet feed. I use a cup and a half pellet feed per day for seniors, and free feed lactating does and grow outs. What did you use for pet or show when you had them before? Use similar. I use Black Oil Sunflower Seeds (BOSS). I also use Calf Mana which is high in protein and calcium. I use less for senior bucks, or senior does not lactating, a little more for lactating does, and more for grow-outs.

Oh, yah, the hay issue. I use my own grass, timothy, red clover, fescue blend. It offers some nutrients, but it is filler. It is good to aid digestion and keep teeth worn down correctly. I free feed it at evenings.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 19, 2018)

This is going to be short because I have a dinner date...with my husband.

Getting to 5 lbs. at 10 to 13 weeks seems to be the average with our meat rabbits, that is not determined by genetics alone. I prefer pedigreed rabbits even though I do not show, because most (NOT ALL) breeders that keep records and pedigrees also tend to take better care of their rabbits and have pride in them. 

I always ask about their cages, if they are off the ground, because I do not buy rabbits that had been on the ground. What her rabbits are used to eating. If the rabbits she is selling have been handled much (and that is not a deal breaker if not, it just tells me more about the breeder focus). What sizes are her kindles on average or what they have been in lines from which you are getting yours. How closely related they are. 

As to you other question:
I really am not an expert on a rabbit's nutritional requirements. I just know what we do and that our rabbits are quite healthy. I have a four-year-old doe that just kindled without losses, but I probably do not breed my does as often as others.

We give them hay as much they will eat down twice a day or for the day if we will be away, because leaving out too much can cause mold. The hay we get is a blend and rarely the same quality or quantity of the types. The grow outs get pellets that will last to the next feeding until culling or they belong to someone else.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 19, 2018)

Thanks @Pastor Dave & @Tale of Tails Rabbitry So the breeder that said she doesn't feed hay hasn't contacted me. That information was on her website. The other breeder that I'm emailing is quite chatty and is volunteering information without me having asked yet. It seems she takes a lot of pride in her rabbits and their accomplishments. I will ask about feed and housing. What is a reasonable price for pedigreed 8 week old NZs?

It sounds like she's been breeding for smaller kindles with larger kits. She said she typically gets 5-8 kits per kindle.

She's recommending a quad, two does and two bucks, since I'm really trying to stay away from line breeding. She said that's what she usually recommends but most people in the area don't care about inbreeding. That's why she says there's a lot of poorly bred NZs in our area. She also said if she doesn't have exactly what I want then she has some other folks in CA that can help me. I'm getting a good vibe from her so far.


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## Tale of Tails Rabbitry (Jan 20, 2018)

It is so interesting what each breeder is trying to accomplish with their herd. Some go for number, others are trying to reach 5 lbs. at eight weeks, etc.

The rabbits I have bought without pedigree ranged from $10 to $35, with pedigree $30 to $60, show quality goes higher but I have not bought one. New Zealand Whites were on the lower end because, in part, there are many NZW breeders around us, but very few show or do pedigrees as most are meat breeders only. Actually, none of our NZWs came to us with a pedigree and it was not an issue because at the time we were just raising them for meat for ourselves. I have learned to not just buy the rabbit, but the breeder. The more helpful and enthusiastic a breeder is about his or her rabbits, the more it is worth to me, because they tend to be healthier rabbits and that is my highest priority.

I agree about a quad because if you lose your one buck then you are not breeding rabbits and buying in desperation. _Been there, done that...recently...*don't *want to do it again!_

On that note, I would try to stagger the bucks ages. If she does not have anything but juniors right now, I would buy one buck now and another six to eight months or more from now, either from her if she has the diversity to offer one unrelated or from another breeder. It is always a good idea to know at least a few other breeders in the area just in case. Unexpected stuff happens, but why spend so much feeding two bucks when you really do not need to do so.

As to line breeding, I do not condemn or condone on the issue. I prefer genetic diversity also, but I have upon occasion bred father to daughter and even half-siblings when trying to establish a genetic trait I liked that they both had. Rabbits are remarkably diverse genetically, which also makes it challenging to establish a genetic trait even with line breeding. I have learned to never say never with line breeding if done responsibly and I have not yet had any deformed or sickly rabbits from a line breeding.


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## BoboFarm (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks again, @Tale of Tails Rabbitry 

I've checked out some other breeder websites for my area and they are very outdated. I've emailed some over the past couple of weeks and I haven't heard from them. I like that this gal responded quickly and is willing to refer me to other breeders if she doesn't have what I need. She's very active in showing and breeding. From a dog breeder's prospective, I like what I'm hearing thus far. A good breeder is worth their weight in gold. Their experience and guidance is invaluable. I don't mind paying a bit more for healthy, solid foundation stock.

I'm not completely against line breeding but I lean away from it if I can. 

She said she gets her breeding stock from Rum Buns Rabbitry on the east coast. I'm not sure if that's of note.


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## MG'S Rabbits (Apr 16, 2019)

Hi! so I'm totally new to this thread and I know it's old, but I wanted to ask @BoboFarm how your colony went? Also, I wanted to suggest watching some of Peebles Rabbit Colony's videos he raises califorians
in a colony and I love how he does it!


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