# Have you lost a baby disbudding??



## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

I took my two new babies to the vet to get disbudded since these are our first babies, we didnt want to do it wrong. I brought her back in yesterday because she was definitely not right. She was moving her head around and yelling and her mom was ignoring her and her eyes were half way closed. They gave me some pain meds and said she just had a headache probably. So this morning I found her dead and we looked up possibilities. I believe the vet fried her brain. Is this common? Are there any other possibilities?


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 1, 2015)

So sorry to hear this..  we are new to goats so not sure.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 1, 2015)

Oh my gosh, I am so sorry... I guess I will not be bringing mine to the vet for it when I start getting babies ...


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 1, 2015)

Sounds like too much heat for too long which probably resulted in  brain swelling.     Have you informed the vet?  He/she needs to know so they can learn from their mistake...

So sorry for your loss.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 1, 2015)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Sounds like too much heat for too long which probably resulted in  brain swelling.     Have you informed the vet?  He/she needs to know so they can learn from their mistake...
> 
> So sorry for your loss.



I think that's what it sounds like too.

It does happen sometime.

So sorry to hear that.

You should get a necropsy done to know for sure.  I would definitely get with the vet.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 1, 2015)

I am sorry for you loss.   That is so sad.  I have not heard of it happening but it sounds likely here.  We do our own and when our vet did it, he was so gentle and we ended up with scurs.


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

We talked to the vet and we brought her in this morning. She was going to run some tests and then send her in to UC and give us the results.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 1, 2015)

I am so sorry. I know it has to be even more difficult as these are your first babies.
There is always risk to disbudding but the loss is not common.
Sadly it does sound as though it was related to a possible overheating of the skull. I am hoping not.

Some vets are very experienced others are not. At the same time we have seen vets that are very experienced and yet lost a kid. Breeders, same thing... 

Always ask questions about how a vet does a particular procedure.

What were the rings like when finished? White? Copper?
Ice packs are also great to put on them as soon as that iron comes off.

I know this must be very discouraging. I am glad your vet is looking at all possibilities. Always the best thing to have a necropsy done.
Don't give up, you were doing the responsible thing and it turned out badly. Sometimes it just Stinks!

   Hang in there.


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

Thanks i have a picture of her horns I can post later. They didn't look good though. They kind of smelled. The vet said she has done this for 20 years and this is her first one to die. The vet suggested to put ice one after we called the first time and just gave us banamine when we came in with her later. The other kid seems just fine. We have been milking the mom. Is there anything I should do for her. Should I give her probiotics or...? Thanks so much for all the help!


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 1, 2015)

Unfortunately, I've seen it happen in a neighbor's goat.  A quick call to the vet when the baby started experiencing problems (swelling around the eyes and lethargy) prompted him to prescribe a dose of dexamethasone and maybe banamine and/or aspirin (this was decades ago and my memory isn't what it used to be).  It worked and the baby was saved, but it was touch and go for a few days. 

I do my own disbudding, have for years.  I have made it a practice to put an ice pack on their heads before, during and after the procedure.  I get their heads nice and cold before...do an initial burn...cool down the head again...finish the burn and apply the ice pack again.  I know.... maybe that's going overboard but it seems to be easier on the kid all around. 

When turned loose they run right to mom and have a little comfort ninny and go on with their day.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 1, 2015)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Unfortunately, I've seen it happen in a neighbor's goat.  A quick call to the vet when the baby started experiencing problems (swelling around the eyes and lethargy) prompted him to prescribe a dose of dexamethasone and maybe banamine and/or aspirin (this was decades ago and my memory isn't what it used to be).  It worked and the baby was saved, but it was touch and go for a few days.
> 
> I do my own disbudding, have for years.  I have made it a practice to put an ice pack on their heads before, during and after the procedure.  I get their heads nice and cold before...do an initial burn...cool down the head again...finish the burn and apply the ice pack again.  I know.... maybe that's going overboard but it seems to be easier on the kid all around.
> 
> When turned loose they run right to mom and have a little comfort ninny and go on with their day.



We never iced ours before, but we do an initial burn, ice pack and then a second burn and ice pack.
Might start icing before now never thought of that.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 1, 2015)

Marge23 said:


> Thanks i have a picture of her horns I can post later. They didn't look good though. They kind of smelled. The vet said she has done this for 20 years and this is her first one to die. The vet suggested to put ice one after we called the first time and just gave us banamine when we came in with her later. The other kid seems just fine. We have been milking the mom. Is there anything I should do for her. Should I give her probiotics or...? Thanks so much for all the help!


How old are the kids?


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

The boy is a week old. And the girl was about 2. We couldn't feel the buds for a while. The girls came in really late but the vet seemed to have no problem with it.


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

Do you think she just could have been too old?


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## Southern by choice (Apr 1, 2015)

We have had Nigie does that had to wait nearly 3 weeks. We have polled goats so sometimes we are waiting to make sure. The boys usually start growth much sooner.
We have done quite a few goats at 2 weeks. One of our vets just won't do Nigies that are under 10 days... PERIOD.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 1, 2015)

We wait until at least 10 days, but we did a buck at 14 days recently and a doe at 21 days.
So no they were not too old.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 1, 2015)

Agree with SBC and OFA.  I don't think she was too old at all.


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## Sunny75 (Apr 1, 2015)

I'm so sorry for your loss.   I also do not think age played a part.  One of my Lamancha doelings was done the day before we picked her up which was at 3 weeks.  she was fine..


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

Thanks so much! I'm just trying to think of possibilities. I guess it just happens


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

The first two are of the girl yesterday and the last one is from today of the boy. His are mostly copper


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 1, 2015)

How long after they were disbudded did she die
I looked back through your thread and can't put the time line together


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## Southern by choice (Apr 1, 2015)

When a burn goes all the way to the ring going from copper to white the white is skull.

That looks awful. How soon after the burn did it look like that? Was something put on it?

The second one The boy doesn't look great either. What is all that extra scab and area outside the left side? (our left)


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

She was disbudded on monday and both of them looked drowsy for a little while afterwards, but yesterday he was fine and she got worse. We gave her the banamine and she was dead this morning.


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## Marge23 (Apr 1, 2015)

It started looking like that about an hour after the procedure and just kept getting worse. the boy has just that little bit of white but not much scabbing. His is mostly copper, but is acting normal. Should I give him anything? Also the vet said they put numbing cream on before performing the procedure. I did put antibiotics on it after we saw the vet about it yesterday.


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## Pearce Pastures (Apr 1, 2015)

That pic does not look normal.  A copper ring is what is expected.  White is too much.  But the gooey look there--not even sure what that is but it is not normal.


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## Marge23 (Apr 2, 2015)

Thanks, I will definitely do it myself nextyear!


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## Onyx (Apr 2, 2015)

OMG that looks horrifying.  I was already dreading having to disbud but this makes me even more worried.  I am so sorry for your loss.  I was planning to go to the vet because I do not feel comfortable doing something like this to an animal without sedation, but it's rather horrifying that a vet doing this for 20 years could produce this result.  It looks like the skin was burned around the horn buds!


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## alsea1 (Apr 2, 2015)

A gal down the road from me lost a goat after disbudding. I don't know what its head looked like, but she described similar behavior.
Makes stuff like this kinda scary for us novice goat people.


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## babsbag (Apr 2, 2015)

Really sorry you lost her, and makes it even worse when you are new to this goat stuff.

My vet lost one of her own kids disbudding so it does happen. She knocks the kids out completely when she does them and she just burned too long. I also wonder if the sedation played a part.

The picture of your doeling looks like it is infected and you said it smelled? It should not smell other than like burnt hair, but not a nasty smell. I wouldn't like seeing all that white, that is too deep in my opinion. I did my own for the first time this year and I am sure there will be scurs as I didn't hold it for very long and even then I was worried. I only take them to my vet if I get a bad scur on a doeling or if there is one that didn't get done in time. She will cut them off and do bigger buds than I can burn.

I don't usually ice them, but I think I will start doing it in the middle of the burn, I like that idea.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 2, 2015)

This scares me a lot... Not even having mine yet freaks me out.. I am not sure I want to disbud now... Maybe I will find a breeder near by instead of going to the vet if I do... I always thought the vet would be a safe option if they were a livestock vet familiar with it.  Flukes happen though right? I mean, I run the risk of a rabbit breaking their backs when I tattoo them but have not so far out of the almost 10 years of raising them.


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## Onyx (Apr 2, 2015)

It's a real conundrum for me too.

It reminds me of when I got into rabbits and was told, matter of factly, that I had to tattoo my animals.  There was simply no choice in the matter if I wanted to show rabbits.  After seeing this done I was horrified.  The process was brutal and the animals scream and struggle.

I went along with it even though I never felt it was right.  I started going to someone who used a tattoo pen as soon as such things became available.  This is a much gentler way to tattoo.  Afterward I felt ashamed.  I thought, all these years I went with the flow even though I knew it was hurting my rabbits... now that I don't have to do that anymore, the blinders have fallen off my eyes because accepting that it's something I don't think is right, no longer has any negative consequences for me.  Now I'm not saying that everyone who tattoos their rabbits this way are horrible people or anything like that, just that for ME, I allowed convenience to dictate my actions instead of what I felt was right.

I want to make sure that if I decide to disbud, it's for the right reasons and not just because I feel pressured into it by convenience, or what is considered to be acceptable by others.

If I do opt to debud it definitely won't be done without some kind of sedative.  I don't believe a topical anesthetic would be of much use in this case to be honest.  I am wondering if it's possible to have the vet administer a sedative and then do it myself with icing in between each application or if I could have a vet do it this way.  I don't want scurs!  I am concerned with the possibility of goats getting stuck on fences, etc due to their horns though.  I have had a tragic experience with another animal with this and so it's a very sensitive subject for me.  I definitely believe that enduring some pain is better than being strangled to death on a fence.  I would also feel responsible if I did not debud and I had a goat injure another goat with their horns.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 2, 2015)

Onyx said:


> It's a real conundrum for me too.
> 
> It reminds me of when I got into rabbits and was told, matter of factly, that I had to tattoo my animals.  There was simply no choice in the matter if I wanted to show rabbits.  After seeing this done I was horrified.  The process was brutal and the animals scream and struggle.
> 
> ...




I agree totally. I did not feel right about the clamp tattoo AT ALL. It never sat right with me and I heard of all of these people having rabbits backs break because of using this method... I use the pen and have been for 8 years. my first few were done at fair time by experienced people... That is probably how I would do it with disbudding as well... have someone else do it but then again, do they really need it? I am too new to goats to know the answer to this question... But if for any reason I do not have to do it, I am all for that reason. Otherwise if it is necessary I will get it done some how...


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## Onyx (Apr 2, 2015)

This is a tougher one for me than the tattooing issue because there are more compelling reasons on both sides.  The primary reasons to disbud that I know of are (in no particular order):

a) you can't show an animal that is not disbudded (only true for some breeds)
b) I have heard that you can't even REGISTER some breeds if they are not disbudded??
c) goats with horns can get their heads/horns caught on fences, feeders, gates, ropes, etc. more easily than goats who are disbudded.
d) when you have goats with horns it can be difficult to keep a mixed herd that has disbudded goats because the horned goats have a decided advantage regarding "pecking order".
e) horns are full of blood vessels and if a horn is broken, a goat can very easily die of blood loss.  Injury to adult horns can cause very serious issues as a developed horn connects directly with the goats sinuses, and the horn contains many important blood vessels and facial nerves.
f) goats can injure each other, injure people, or other livestock with their horns, even without any intention to be aggressive.
g) goats with horns can cause a lot more damage to farm infrastructure like fences.

Personally I do not believe in causing unnecessary pain to animals whether they are pets or farm animals... on the other hand I accept that life is not all rainbows and butterflies, that every life is going to have some pain - that's part of living -  and it may sometimes be necessary for the greater good.

I'm still undecided on what to do, myself.  If my first goats end up being disbudded already by the breeder though, I will almost certainly continue to disbud so that I don't have a mixed flock.  I don't think that's really fair.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 2, 2015)

We have always had ours sedated and also given a nerve block. 
However, we have just started disbudding our own.
No sedative.

Why?

Several reasons.

Before I get to that I would like to say many think that the vet will overburn because the animal is sedated. Not true. Actually less likely as they can take their time and there is no rushing. So shorter burn cycles and snipping out the bud.

The amount of kids we have  kidded and the constant back and forth and "no not this one, not ready wait 2 more days" etc just got to be too much. Sometimes 3-4 vet visits in a week. I don't have the time.

I found that I was wanting to grab the iron because I knew that on the one side it wasn't enough... each time I had to take the goat back for a redo because a scur was forming.  Now, I catch it quick so it can be reburned, but there again another visit, and sedation, and burn.

We have not had any issues _until _this year with the sedation... and 2 of our goat kids didn't do too well. Our vet was also very concerned. We think one of our kids is not right in the head... not sure if it was sedation or burn. None have ever been overburned. We have never had swelling either. I have seen swelling and closed eyes on other goats that were disbudded bur we have never had that.

We work with several vets so I decided to call in another vet that is mobile. Vet came out on a farm call and the purpose was to teach us how to do it ourselves. Seeing it done many different ways and talking with the vet for awhile we opted for his method.

This vet is very supportive of those wanting to learn to do all they can for their animals and the hands on approach. Step by step and then I did one. All was well. We knew we would have a few more to do so I asked if I could call and give him a heads up in case I royally botched something... 
Sunday the 29th I did my first 2 on my own.
It was fine. I do not get nervous about things like that it is just another procedure but at the same time ANYONE can lose a goat in the process. 

It has happened to vets and breeders with years of experience.

I am comfortable without the sedation and honestly I prefer doing it myself at this point. If I lose a kid it will be on me and I will not need to wonder and there can be no blame.


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## Onyx (Apr 2, 2015)

@Southern by choice I think AFTER I've seen it done by the vet a number of times I may opt to try it myself as well (if I decide to disbud). But I'd never want to do it without sedation of some kind... I wonder if icing ahead of time would numb the area well enough... as well as icing afterward.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 2, 2015)

Wow I didn't realize that there was so much behind disbudding. I don't even know if the Alpine goats get horns lol! I really need to find this stuff out... None of the full Alpine goats the lady has have horns, the Alpine/Boer crosses do. The boers do. So maybe I won't get a mix....  :/ I have had horrible luck with rabbits and losing babies nothing related to anything I do I have a feeling I would have bad luck with this as well... 

I really hope it wasn't related to the disbudding Marge23.  Thank you for sharing this thread it is certainly helping me learn about all of this before I need to know what to do! I am however, sorry that you had to go through it at all..


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## Marge23 (Apr 2, 2015)

Im sorry to scare you. As far as I know it is very rare from what people said. I do believe she has never had it happen in 20 years but i don't know. Its hard to say. It could have just been a fluke, it doesn't make it okay, but  i guess it happens. I've never even heard of it until now so it cant be that common because I have read tons! But I still think disbudding is the best route even though this happened.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 2, 2015)

I wrote an article about this-
http://www.backyardherds.com/resources/horns-dis-bud-polled.31/

at the end I also posted a thread I'd put up about Millie... our lamancha that we had to actually de-horn.

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/de-horned-2yr-old-doe-week-3-update.28257/page-2#post-358403

Goats have horns unless they are naturally polled.
Dairy goats are generally disbudded.
I have never heard of not being able to not register an animal because it hadn't been disbudded.

I should probably update the article.

We have strictly gone to disbudding and the main reason is accidents happen and when I have 20 goats crowding me and pushing to get something that they think they want it gets dangerous. A few goats is one thing... 20-30 - 40 is another.
Little children simply have their eyes right at the level of a Nigie's horns. Personally I don't like seeing horned goats around young children.


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## Southern by choice (Apr 2, 2015)

oops meant to add.... I never thought I would do it without sedation either but for me it isn't a matter of expense or even convenience it is really faster and less of an issue than I ever thought it to be.

I am always willing to try different things and when I do, I try to share without bias of the findings.
Always be flexible, watch, learn, and try different ways of doing things on your farm and in the end do what works for you. Sometimes a way that was working may not work later.


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 2, 2015)

Based on what DH told me, we will probably be doing our own dis-budding.  He has done some when growing up on his family dairy farm.


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## samssimonsays (Apr 2, 2015)

Don't be sorry, the fact I'm getting goats and going into uncharted territory scares me in general Lol. Scare probably isn't the word to use...  maybe worried? I hate being unprepared and from the Sounds of it, you never are with goats. Time to step out of my comfort zone and back into rolling towards my dream of a self sustainable life. I will know it can happen now and be my usual over protective worrying self until the danger period passes. I am still heart broken for you.  Hugs.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Apr 10, 2015)

It's scary for me both ways... my does have full horns, and my buck has scurs... not sure whether my babies should get disbudded or not... :O Our vet did my dad's heifer, and she did fine. I think I would trust him with my goats if I decide to do it...


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## Latestarter (Apr 19, 2015)

I don't own goats (yet) and have never seen a disbudding done aside from on TV by the incredible Dr Poll. But I HAVE seen a lot of wounds of various types and those look horrible! They should NOT look like that. Especially the one on the left (in the pic) of the lost doe. IMHO the person responsible botched it very badly and it matters not how many years experience he/she had. So sorry for your loss. IMHO, the buckling's disbudding doesn't look all that great either. 

Perhaps the person responsible had a "night on the town" the evening before performing this?  Or just got out of bed on the wrong side that morning? Maybe skipped their morning coffee? Whatever...


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 19, 2015)

Since this was a topic, I took some pictures right after we finished.
This is what it should look like.


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## frustratedearthmother (Apr 19, 2015)

And THAT folks - is how it's done.  Great job!


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 20, 2015)

Very nice, hope ours look as good.


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## OneFineAcre (Apr 20, 2015)

Not great pictures, she wasn't being cooperative,  but this is the same goat after a couple of weeks.


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## Painted_Angels (Apr 26, 2015)

Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with the disbudding. We have not lost any to disbudding since we started doing it. Prior to starting we several dehorned and I swore I would never let it get that bad again. I typically clip the hair around the bud and apply the iron to each horn for 6 seconds twice alternating. The ring turns out a golden brown. As soon as they are turned back in with momma they nurse and are fine. 
I hope you have better luck in the future.


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## Latestarter (Apr 26, 2015)

Greetings @Painted_Angels  and the thread. 
Not a happy thread this one, but there are lots of others out there to go read   I'm sure you'll find a couple of interest


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## Ridgetop (Apr 26, 2015)

I am so sorry you suffered this loss.  Losing a doe kid is sad, especially when these are your first kids.  It can be heartbreaking.  The kid was not too old.  You can't disbud until you can feel the horn bud starting.  Does' buds usually are slower to grow than bucks'.  To me it looks like the iron went into the sinus. This can happen it if the horn is left on too long with too much pressure in a thinner skull.  Damage to the sinus could cause the swelling to the eyes.  If it caused heat damage to the brain this could have caused the kid to die.  It was something I was warned about when learning to disbud.

Please, please don't let this stop you from disbudding future kids, especially if you have a family. Southernbychoice is right - horns are dangerous around children. If you watch a goat with horns the behavior is very noticable.  They will twist their heads to the side and toss them back.  I have been jabbed in the thigh badly by a pygmy goat's horns when feeding for a friend.  The goat was not nasty, just tossing its head.  In a confined space this can be dangerous.  If you have children PLEASE disbud.  Goats are super friendly and children love them. They make great pets even in a larger herd.  You don't want an accident to blind one of your toddlers.  Horned goats can also be dangerous to horses if you keep goats as companion animals.  I heard of a goat disemboweling a pony many years ago.  They were friends but the goat wether had horns and was playing.  And ofcourse, I have had them get stuck in feeders and fences.  You would feel terible if you found a goat hangingfrom a feeder.

Disbudding is a necessary evil when keeping goats.  It does smell bad _because you are burning hair and skin with the iron_.  Shaving the top of the head around the horn buds will help the smell and make it easier to see where to place the iron.  The hotter the iron, the faster the process and easier on the goat kid.  You must learn from an experienced person and use a disbudding box.  Onefineacre did a beautiful job.  The man who taught me had been raising and disbudding goats for 40 years.  Sedating the kids can be dangerous too.  My friend told me that the kids _should_ scream.  As long as they are making noise, they are ok.  If they go silent, stop immediately and let them recover.  One or two kids have gone limp in the box from stress.  We had to get them out and cuddle them for a while before proceeding.  I have never used ice packs.  I pack the burns with medicated stypic powder to cause them to dry up and spray gentian violet on the wounds.  Neosporin is not good, the cream gets debris stuck in it and doesn't allow the wound to dry out.  Better to keep the burn area dry.

Remember to vaccinate for tetanus when disbudding and castrating.  Give Tetanus Antitoxin for immediate protection and CDT which takes about a week to kick in with the tetanus toxoid protection.  Eventually my son, Carl, took over the disbudding when he was about 14.  We have done over 500 kids in 20 plus years of breeding goats - both our own and for other people.  We have never lost one.  BUT that being said, you need to be careful and watch what you are doing.  All our goats were dairy and Boer breeds.  We have neve done the pygmy breeds.  Some goats can have thinner skull bones than others - even in the same breed.  You need to be cautious about leaving the iron on too long.  That is why I love our old iron.  When I had it repaired the company told me that they are not allowed to make them heat up as high as mine.  That is why I don't need to leave it on the goat as long.  The new ones have to be left on longer to burn out the horn bud.  Take it off frequently to check how it is going.  Use a counting system to make sure you don't leave it on too long.

Like tattooing rabbits and dairy goats, and ear tags in sheep, cattle and market goats, this is a necessary procedure.  I had to have a couple of goats dehorned when we were just starting out.  That was a horrible experience and much more dangerous.  I even disbussed our Boer goats.

Onyx & Samanthadrawz:


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## Ridgetop (Apr 26, 2015)

Onyx & samanthadrawz:  Sorry hit the wrong key.  Tatooing rabbits is unpleasant.  If you wrap them in a towel they won't struggle as much.  The alternative is mixing them up.  Once you accidently oput a doe into another doe's cage for breeding and watch them draw blood, or put the nest box in the wrong cage and lose a litter on the wire, you will realize that it is necessary for ID purposes too.  Again never had one break its back during tatooing.  I do call out to the rabbits before coming into the barn because a friend went into her barn unexpectedly and one jumped into the top of the cage and broke its back.  Animals and children - causing so much grief and bringing so much love!  Can't live without them!


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