# Need Help with Dog Problem ASAP, Please!!!



## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 1, 2014)

This is a convoluted story so I will keep it as brief as possible while still getting across the main points.

I have a feeling my feelings are getting in the way of finding an answer so I need outside opinions on how to handle the situation.

We have been having dog problems with our closest neighbor since Feb of 2014 (this year). At that time our two LGD's, Diego and Toli, were 13 months and 11 months old. They emailed my landlord a huge nasty personally slandering email (even though I've only met the lady once) saying that our dogs killed one of her Cock-a-poos (cocker spaniel/ poodle). Now, I am one of those people that have seen what dogs can do when they get into pack mode and can understand, HOWEVER myself, my boyfriend, my landlord, three children I was baby sitting, AND a family of three were here AT THE FARM physically up there WITH the dogs when the "attack" happened and I know it wasn't our dogs. The lady is hell bent that it was our dogs, even though no one saw the attack, and there was absolutely no proof.

March of 2014 Toli has a litter of 9 puppies.

May of 2014 at 8 weeks old, two of Toli's puppies go missing. I have a gut feeling they were stolen as they were in the middle of our farm, but my boyfriend thinks coyotes got them. They were there at night when we tucked everyone in bed at 10 pm and by 6:30 am the next morning, they are missing. We searched for hours and days, searched all the neighboring fields and neighbors yards, put up fliers and asked neighbors, all to no avail. We knew they couldn't have gotten far since they were so young, we walked around to some of the neighbors houses looking in yards for them in case someone thought they were strays. We did NOT look or knock at these particular neighbors house since the woman had been so venomous to me and since we KNOW that they have seen and knew both of the parent dogs (of which the puppies are carbon copies). These pups had already been sold and we had deposits on them which we had to refund.

2 months later they again email our landlord slandering the heck out of me personally (I've still only ever met or spoke with her one time) saying that our dogs "tore up" her cocker-poodles. However, our dogs were tethered on steel cables locked inside the goat pasture, so there is NO possible way it was our dogs. She has about 4-5 of these miniature cocker- poodles, that weigh no more than 15 pounds, and that they let run all over country, into other people yards etc, they come down to our place and harass our livestock all the time. They refuse to keep them contained.

Today on August 31st while up at the farm feeding the animals, in the evening at approx 6:30 pm I look up and see our two "missing" puppies come running back down into our yard, granted now they are 5 months old, but of course I recognized them instantly. The pups come running over to me as soon as I call them, happy as can be. They both look to be in good condition and have collars and tags. I lock them in the barn and remove one of the tags to bring down with me to the house to google the phone number and address, thinking if it was one of our further away neighbors it would be totally understandable. Well turns out to be an exact match to these immediate next door neighbors, the ones we have been having such a problem with. So they had our puppies the entire time while they were starting all this unfounded crap with us!

So now they have called our landlord, and aren't denying that they are our dogs, but at first they said they thought they were strays and then changed their story to saying they thought we had left them at their doorstep for them as a peace offering, *cough BS*. Now they want them back. I created a chronological list of all the events that happened, as well as attached the missing flyer and sent it all to my landlord (as she is the intermediary between us as the lady won't even speak to us). I don't know if they expect us to give them back for free, or if they thinks its reasonable to buy them from us, but at this point I am convinced they knowingly stole them from us and that the lady is utterly cuckoo. My thoughts are to sell them back to them, but my boyfriend thinks that if we ask for "too much" that the lady will retaliate and try to steal our puppies, let goats out, poison our animals etc. I say she could still do all that even if we gave them back for free.

PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS...


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## alsea1 (Sep 1, 2014)

You just cannot reason with a nut cake.


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## MsDeb (Sep 1, 2014)

alsea1 said:


> You just cannot reason with a nut cake.


That about sums it up. 
Sounds like you've handled it as well as possible, documenting events and avoiding confrontations. Thank heavens for your landlord!  I don't think I'd be willing to let them have the dogs back for any amount of money but that' just me feeling stinky.  Best of luck in this tough situation.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 1, 2014)

MsDeb said:


> That about sums it up.
> Sounds like you've handled it as well as possible, documenting events and avoiding confrontations. Thank heavens for your landlord!  I don't think I'd be willing to let them have the dogs back for any amount of money but that' just me feeling stinky.  Best of luck in this tough situation.



My thoughts exactly. I don't want to give them back as they are our puppies, but my boyfriend thinks we should to help keep the peace.


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## frustratedearthmother (Sep 1, 2014)

Like Alsea1 and MsDeb said - You can't fix crazy!  I don't think I'd let them have the dogs back either...no reason to reward a thief.  Maybe the pups wandered over there...maybe.  But, a reasonable person would have tried to find the owner and it sounds like they already knew the owner was you.  I'd be thinking about contacting the authorities just to file a report and get this on file somewhere.  Not necessarily to press charges, but it wouldn't hurt for them to know you're serious about it.  Sometimes a bully has to be put in their place.  Good luck!


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## norseofcourse (Sep 1, 2014)

Could they have come onto your property and taken 8-week old puppies with the puppies parents right there?  Or is it more likely they tempted them off the property, or some of the puppies were getting out and exploring and they got them then?  Regardless, I think they knew they were yours, too.

What about contacting your local Animal Control and asking them what would typically happen in a situation like that - who would they consider the owner?  You may not need to go into all the 'problem neighbor' details, just the puppy situation.  And I'm sure you have plenty of pictures of them when they were young to help prove your case.

Did she report the cocker spaniel killing, or the 'tearing up' the poodle, to animal control?  Did they come visit your place, what was their conclusion?  Any normal person would report something like that, but I'm with the others, I think she's not normal...  and I wish you luck in dealing with this.

Personally I would not give or sell her the puppies, I would fight to prove they were mine, and I would put up security cameras, gates, locks, anything else I could afford to make sure my animals are safe.

Have you called animal control to report it when her dogs are on your property harrassing your livestock?  That will help build a history - pictures of it if you can get them, too.


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## Tea Chick (Sep 1, 2014)

WhiteMountainsRanch said:


> My thoughts exactly. I don't want to give them back as they are our puppies, but my boyfriend thinks we should to help keep the peace.


I, personally, would shudder to give/sell animals to the woman you described, but...if my DH thought it was best to give them the puppies, then I would do that.


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## babsbag (Sep 1, 2014)

I would report this to animal control or the Sheriff ASAP. Give them the  history and let them deal with her. If her dogs come onto your land your dogs have the right to tear them up no matter what.

Do you think the pups wandered off your land? Could they get through your fences? Either way I am sure they knew you had puppies. What nerve. I would NOT let her have the dogs back.

What a pain and it makes my crazy neighbors look sane.


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## babsbag (Sep 1, 2014)

If they came onto your land to steal the dogs wouldn't the adult dogs have intervened? Mine would have.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 1, 2014)

Yes they could probably have walked right onto our property and taken them. They are our immediate next door neighbor (the only one we have) and there is no fence in between our property and theirs, and our dogs know them.

Theoretically yes our puppies *could* have wandered up there, but at 8 weeks old it would be quite a trek to make it all the way to her house by themselves. And even if they did wander up there she KNEW they were ours.

I have spoken with a Deputy and filed an event report. He said because of the value of the dogs and since dogs are considered property (if we decide to escalate it to a Crime report) it's a felony and they can go to jail for three years.

We have offered to sell the puppies back to them for the full asking price plus spay contract and a no harass stipulation.

If they don't like that option and decide to harass or retaliate in any way shape or form we will escalate it to a Crime Report.

Waiting to see what they have to say back as my landlord is acting as an intermediary for us.


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## frustratedearthmother (Sep 1, 2014)

I think you did the right thing!


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## goatboy1973 (Sep 1, 2014)

In most counties throughout the US there are leash laws to protect pets, their owners, and communities. In Knox County, Tennessee there is a law that says your animals must be in control at all times and any damages incurred by others as a result of the owner's negligence is the responsibility of the owner of the offending animal. This law protects everyone and irresponsible owners just irritate me terribly! If a person takes the responsibility of pet ownership then they owe it to their neighbors and the animal to make darn sure they can provide food, shelter, love and attention, and containment. You do have some crazy idiots living beside you. I would suggest putting up signs that state the place is under surveillance even though you may not even have any cameras, no trespassing signs, and talk with your neighbors about possible animal thieves in the neighborhood without accusing them and ask them if they have seen any suspicious activity. Tell them that you have had to resort to putting up surveillance cameras throughout your property as a result. You may also want to provide the neighbors with a printed copy of the laws concerning theft, trespassing, and the local leash laws. Good luck!


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## alsea1 (Sep 1, 2014)

That is pretty good advice goat but in this case I think it would be like pouring gas on a fire to discuss this with the people. However I would def. put up the signs.  I would even hide a few game cameras just in case. They are fairly cheap but get the job done.


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## goatboy1973 (Sep 1, 2014)

The surveillance signs can be bought at your local Tractor Supply or Nasco Farm Supply online and they are cheaper than actually putting up real cameras. I would also put up "No trespassing" signs every 50 ft. That way there's no question about signs being "clearly posted" if any of this goes to court. Also, I would keep Animal Control's number on hand at all times and next time those pesky poodles start terrorizing your livestock, give them a call and tell them a pack of stray dogs are endangering your livestock. They will come capture the dogs and a report will be filed and when the owners come to pick the offending dogs they may be fined. You may also try using electric fence 6" above the ground on the outside the fence perimeter. Pepper spray may also be a great tool to use on the dogs when they start nonsense directed at your livestock. I have used this stuff with great success. This is called negative reinforcement. A couple of incidents and the dogs learn their lesson.


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## MsDeb (Sep 2, 2014)

goatboy1973 said:


> Pepper spray may also be a great tool to use on the dogs when they start nonsense directed at your livestock. I have used this stuff with great success. This is called negative reinforcement. A couple of incidents and the dogs learn their lesson.


Just have to share because this brought back a memory of my grandpa.  I apologize in advance because the story doesn't really end well.  When I was little I remember him telling about the neighbor two doors down having a pair of prize hunting dogs. The neighbor, who constantly bragging about how great his hunting dogs, would not keep them penned and the dogs would constantly come over to my grandparents yard causing disruptions. My grandpa would take them home and ask the neighbor to keep them out of his yard.
My grandpa finally had his fill one day and sprayed them with something called Hot Shot.  I've heard that this is very potent stuff. Probably more so than pepper spray but you've got to keep in mind that this was some 60  years ago. The dogs left and didn't come back.  A few days later my my grandpa ran across the neighbor and was told that he had had to put his prize hunting dogs down because they came home acting all crazy and they must have had rabies.
I realize this doesn't make Grandpa sound very nice but he was. And he was an animal lover, always taking in strays, and even as a child I remember how bad he felt when he talked about the dogs.  He always had a little chuckle about the neighbor though and he never did tell him what had really been wrong with the prize hunting dogs.


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## babsbag (Sep 2, 2014)

I like your plan...and then a fence would be next. Fences make good neighbors.


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## BrownSheep (Sep 2, 2014)

Just a warning. I some states if you have possession of an animal for more than a certain period of time the animal  becomes your property. I don't know how this would apply to your situation since the puppies where know to be yours. 

I would-
A) document every time their dogs enter your property. If you see them take a picture. Notify authorities. 
B) Signs!
C) Pad locks or combo locks on all gates. 

It sounds like the authorities are backing your claim to the dogs. I would not give them back. You offered them the chance to purchase them that's more than what you have to do.


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## Robbin (Sep 3, 2014)

You will probably have a harder time selling them at 5 months.  Giving them th dogs stops all other complaints.  They can't complain because you have big dogs, because they have big dogs.  If a little dog gets hurt, how do they prove it's not their big dogs.   I'm all for locked gates and fences, but you have a landlord. That means you can be evicted. Giving them back the puppies might go a long way towards protecting the rest of your investment....
If you owned the property, I'd tell them to pack sand.  But you don't.   It can get a lot worse,  hot dogs soaked in anti freeze thrown onto the property as they drive by in the dark.  Do what you need to do to stop this from escalating.  I wish you good luck, I've suffered thru some real problems with other peoples dogs killing my animals.  I love my big Toli so much....


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## babsbag (Sep 3, 2014)

I do agree that you have to watch out for retaliation from them, that is always a worry. But they  stole the dogs and if you give in to that who knows what they will take the next time. They are evil people to begin with. I would seriously get a fence between them and you as quickly as possible; maybe even two of them so your dogs can't run the fence line.

If the dogs have not been around any livestock then you might have a hard time finding them LGD homes, but then again they aren't too old to learn if they haven't had any bad habits already started. I would certainly be monitoring these pups and evaluating them for their future job.

Is your landlord on your side?


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 10, 2014)

Yes the landlord and the authorities are on our side.

I presented them with a letter stating that we've made a police report and that it's a felony theft because the dogs are worth over $900 and dogs are considered property. I also offered to sell them back at asking price, when they were 8 weeks old, which was $400 per pup, and I put a spay, and "no harass/ slander" stipulation in the contract. The husband called us back and apologized profusely for everything including his wife, said he appreciates us offering to let them buy them and he agrees to all the terms. So he came and bought them from us and signed the contract, said he's grateful we can "wipe the slate clean" and "start over", as neighbors, even though I had only met the wife once and him never before this day.

So they have them now and everything seems fine except now they are letting the pups out every day to "run the hills" just like their poodles, and the pups are coming down here to the farm and hanging out with my dogs. (It's amazing as soon as they smelled Toli they recognized instantly she was their mother! Siblings, not so much). They aren't causing any trouble yet, but I won't be able to free-range my turkeys as I had planned. 

So I know we need to put up a fence, but the back half where the farm is is 5 acres and the total property is 12 and it's not  even ours, plus we can't really afford to put up a fence, (fencing material is SUPER expensive out here). So I'm kinda at a loss what to do except try and train their pups the best I can in the limited amount of time I see them (usually in the evenings).


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## babsbag (Sep 10, 2014)

I guess it is good that they won't be harassing you but not so good that you still have the pups part time and they aren't yours. It will be really hard to train them not to bother your turkeys when you only see them part of the time. NEIGHBORS 

I am sure you don't want to rock the boat anymore but is there any way you can just tell them that you are going to have turkeys out and your are worried about the pups chasing them? I am sure that it is illegal for their dogs to be roaming like that. Surely they know that.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 10, 2014)

Yeah they know it. I even put in the contract if there dogs are down here (or ours get out and are up there) for either party to call and let the other one know so they could get them. The first two times it happened and we texted them, he said "it was to be expected" like they aren't going to make effort in keeping their dogs at home. I also told him when he came to pick them up that they can be roamers and he needs to be careful of that. So now I'm banging my head on the wall. Guess the only thing to do is *somehow* figure out how to put up a fence.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 10, 2014)

HOTWIRE!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 10, 2014)

I've heard that hotwire is cheaper, but they systems seem so complicated and I have no clue how to even start to look for the things I would need to get a hotwire fence up.


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## Southern by choice (Sep 10, 2014)

Not complicated at all. We use T post and yellow tape- easier to see wider and we put 5 strands so Nigie Kids won't go through. The "tape is more expensive but we like it better.
Grounding Rod and Battery Charger or Solar... whatever works for you.


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## babsbag (Sep 11, 2014)

I agree, hot wire. And it isn't really complicated once you start. For us we use hot wire in addition to fencing but I have used just the wire for interior fencing.  I don't use the tape, but I like the tape and would use it if I was doing it without wire fencing. When we did ours getting the ground rods in was the hardest part and getting a good ground was hard too. Our ground is very rocky and dry in the summer and we use 3 rods tied together in a row. I also water my ground where the rods are in the summer, wet ground works better.

They make those fiberglass step on posts too and I have used some of those instead of those stand offs. Cheaper than t-posts and *maybe* easier to install. They aren't very tall but they would probably work to stop the pups from visiting.
Our charger is a DC one that we have a solar charger attached to. The fence charger runs off of a 12v battery and our solar charger keeps the battery charged. The biggest thing to remember is the wire can't touch the ground or anything metal. Also can short out sometimes when it touches a tree.

Once you get the parts you will see that it isn't hard to put together. If you have questions just ask us. You can do this


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 11, 2014)

We might be able to do those green t posts, but our ground is very rocky, hard, and dry as well.

Do either of you have pictures? Can you post a link or two to the equipment you are using?

Thank you!


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## babsbag (Sep 11, 2014)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/zarebareg;-25-mile-battery-operated-solid-state-fence-charger

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/gallagher-double-foot-treadin-post-pack-of-40

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/fi-shocktrade;-5-8-in-six-foot-galvanized-ground-rod

This is the charger, the step in posts I mentioned and the ground rods.

I will try and get some pictures. Our ground is miserable too so I understand the MAYBE part of putting in t-posts.


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## secuono (Sep 11, 2014)

So glad I don't have them as my neighbor, I'd move!!!
How long passed since the dogs went missing?? Very possible that the pups got eaten, escaped or escaped and later those neighbors found them. This happens with dogs and cats all the time, no reason it can't happen in your special case as well. 
You have zero proof that they stole them, so I'd have to give them back if it were me and months had passed from them being in the yard and then MIA. 
Either way...I couldn't live where my neighbors were that insane....I'd never get any sleep and slowly loose my mind...

Good luck!


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 11, 2014)

They admitted having them since they were 8 weeks old, admitted they knew they were our dogs AND their house is less than 100 yards from my barn, right where the pups were born, there is no way they could not have known they were ours.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 11, 2014)

babsbag said:


> http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/zarebareg;-25-mile-battery-operated-solid-state-fence-charger
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/gallagher-double-foot-treadin-post-pack-of-40
> 
> ...



Awesome, thank you for posting those! How does that charger work, it says battery so is that something I have to change out often or? Does it sit on the ground or does it need to be hung somewhere? Remember this is what I am trying to fence;


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 12, 2014)

I like the one you posted, just not sure how it works with batteries..? Is it like a dep cycle or car battery you just change out every now and then?

If I didn't want to have to worry about batteries, would something like this work?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/zarebareg;-5-mile-solar-fence-charger


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 12, 2014)

Do I need insulators to keep the wire off of the t-posts?


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 12, 2014)

Would this work with that charger? http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/bekaert-14-gauge-galvanized-electric-fence-wire-1-4-mile-spool

I'd probably run 4 strands, total 4' tall.

How does the wire hook into the charger? And if you run multiple strands, how do they hook to each other? Just wind them together and they all charge?

I'm so confused.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Sep 12, 2014)

Something like this with less strands?


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