# 5 day old buckling suddenly lost appetite and has wobbly knees



## New Goat Momma (Feb 4, 2011)

A word of forwarningPlease forgive me if I don't use all the proper terms.  I am new to this.

I have a 5 day old buckling that was one of a set of triplets.  He was the last born and has had a hard time of it.  The mother never did produce milk so he has been fed the colostrum and milk from another goat when he pretty much refused to eat replacement colostrum or formula.  He has been eating very good ever since we put him on the real stuff.  Tonight, suddenly he has decided he is not hungry and has a hard time standing up.  The tops of his knees might be slightly swollen and warm, but not sure.  If they are, it is only slightly.  

Does this sound like anything any of you are familiar with?  I have been googling my heart out to no avail but now I'm spooked with all the possibilities.  Please advise if you can.


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## New Goat Momma (Feb 4, 2011)

I just on the buckling again and his two front knees are definitely swollen, with it being most obvious on the top side of the joints.  I hope that makes sense.  He is standing better now but still is not interested in eating which is so odd because he has been eating so well.


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2011)

I am far from being a goat expert, but look up navel ill. It is also called joint ill. Did you dip his umbilical cord when he was born?

Is he running a fever? You really need to find that out.

Not a fun way to start at all. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here. I am sure they will be along to help.


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## New Goat Momma (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm not sure if his navel was dipped when he was born?  I got him at 12 hrs old because the lady didn't want to have to bottle feed him when her nanny didn't produce milk.  She was going to shoot him to put him down and my daughter begged to bring him home.  

His temperature is 103.2 F


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2011)

His temp is at the high end of normal so something to watch, at least I would.

Here is a paragraph on Navel Ill. I don't know if a fever would be present or not, and it doesn't say here. The warm knees would make me suspicious, but I could be entirely wrong. Fortunately I have not had any sick kids or goat where we didn't know what was wrong. Hopefully someone else will have some more ideas for you. And hopefully my thoughts are wrong. Also doesn't explain why he won't eat. Sorry I don't have any answers for you.

_Joint Ill (aka Navel Ill) occurs when bacteria travels up a newborn kid's wet navel cord and migrates to its (usually) leg joints. Over a period of days or weeks, the kid begins to limp as joints swell. Antibiotic treatment is required, is usually long term (weeks rather than days), and the kid may have life-long residual effects from the infection. Arthritis may develop as the kid gets older. Avoid Joint Ill by dipping the kid's wet navel cord immediately after birth in 7% iodine solution -- all the way up to its body. Baytril 100 injectable is an excellent antibiotic with which to treat Joint Ill. This antibiotic kills organisms that other antibiotics don't affect. Baytril 100 usage is restricted in food animals in some locales. However, your vet can prescribe it._


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## helmstead (Feb 4, 2011)

I'd also ponder navel ill...but, whenever I have a kid suddenly not want to eat, I immediately treat for constipation.  Warm, soapy enema, 3 cc veggie oil, 1 tsp baking soda.  

If you can get it, some BoSe (1/4 cc for a mini, 1/2 cc for a standard).

I hope he pulls through!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 4, 2011)

Here is a treatment I found for Naval Ill:

YOu may wish to consult a vet or an experienced farmer in your area if you have no experience giving shots. 

You would use a 3cc syringe with a pink caped needle( I think this is 22gauge can't remember for sure)

Drug Name:

Oxytetracycline- 200 mg/ml
 Brand Names:

LA-200 
Oxy-Tet 200 
Bio-Mycin 200 
Liquamycin LA 200 
Geomycin 200 
Agrimycin 200 
Maxim 200 


For treatment of: 
Used for navel or joint ill in young kids (always treat joint/naval ill for a full 10 days). 

Goat dose: SQ Injection 
4.5ml per 100 lbs. every 36-48 hours. Administer 3 shots (one every 36-48 hours.) 
OR 
3ml per 100 lbs. once daily (this is the dosage I use)


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## helmstead (Feb 4, 2011)

:/ Actually, oxytetracycline (LA200, etc) is contradicted by milk products...while I've never (knock on wood) had to treat navel ill...I would think a different antibiotic would be in order?


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## babsbag (Feb 4, 2011)

The article I quoted above says that you use Baytril.

Would Navel Ill explain not eating? And would he have a fever or can 103.2 be considered a low grade fever?


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> :/ Actually, oxytetracycline (LA200, etc) is contradicted by milk products...while I've never (knock on wood) had to treat navel ill...I would think a different antibiotic would be in order?


You mean Oxy-tetra isn't effective if the kid is on milk?? because the milk deactivates it or something???


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## helmstead (Feb 4, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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20kids...exactly.  AND it can stunt growth, so not only will it not be terribly effective, but can be detrimental.

I still say constipation.  I wouldn't so much consider 103 a fever...


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

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Hmmm.  I haven't ever used oxy-tetra on a kid, I just pulled the info up from a web-site.  I haven't ever dealt with naval-ill either.  
And i agree with the constipation as a good strong possiblity for him being off his bottle.


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## New Goat Momma (Feb 4, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Warm, soapy enema, 3 cc veggie oil, 1 tsp baking soda.


Please forgive my ignorance, but do you actually put soap in it?  Or is it just the veggie oil and baking soda?


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## New Goat Momma (Feb 4, 2011)

Also is there any way the constipation can cause the swollen front knee joints?  The back knees are fine though.


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## Roll farms (Feb 5, 2011)

Kid's knees often look swollen when they're really not.  It *could* be you're only noticing it now b/c he's feeling puny.  

Or if he's not been as active, that could be contributing to it.

I had a case of Navel Ill with Rider when I brought him home as a 2 day old, we treated him w/ Pen G for 7 days.  1 cc 2x a day.

I've only done the enema thing once, but I used 'dishwater' (warm, w/ a dab of dish soap in it), squirted about 2 or 3cc in and that kid shot poo and water clear across the room.

The veggie oil and baking soda, she wants you to give orally.  

Good luck.


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## helmstead (Feb 5, 2011)

I use a LOT of soap making enema water.  Needs to feel slippery on your fingers.  They'll toot bubbles after, LOL, but it does make them poop!  I use a luer slip 3 cc syringe, and insert 3 cc rectally, then hold the rectum closed for a count of 30.  Release, wait a few mins, if nothing comes out, repeat til you get something.  Do it as often as every 4 hrs.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

All tetracyclines are counteracted by milk.  Strange, but true!

Also, even though he's a little bitty thing I wouldn't use a 22 gauge with antibiotics.  The oxytet suspension is pretty thick and it's hard to get it moved quickly through a 22.  The pen G is even worse and you don't want to end up with all suspension solution and no antibiotics in your syringe.  The smallest I would use is a 20, although on adults I always use and 18.


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> All tetracyclines are counteracted by milk.  Strange, but true!
> 
> Also, even though he's a little bitty thing I wouldn't use a 22 gauge with antibiotics.  The oxytet suspension is pretty thick and it's hard to get it moved quickly through a 22.  The pen G is even worse and you don't want to end up with all suspension solution and no antibiotics in your syringe.  The smallest I would use is a 20, although on adults I always use and 18.


Pink cap is 20 gauge, I had the gauge wrong on my other post.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 5, 2011)

I will use an 18 gauge needle even on a little one. The thicker stuff just goes in so much easier and quicker.


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## helmstead (Feb 5, 2011)

Yup, 18 g for Pen...no question!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 5, 2011)

Last night his temperature was 103.2 and this morning it's at 102.3 so it is dropping. 

We have not given the enema, because he now how diarrea. His stomach feels soft but full, yet he has not eaten in almost 24 hours.

His eyes are runny, knees still slightly swollen and still very wobbly. 

My mother is headed to the vets with him, but since our vets do not know goats real well we are hoping to gather any information and suggestions to give them. Our vets are very easy to work with and very receptive to outside information, and will research into it before treatment.

Thanks.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I will use an 18 gauge needle even on a little one. The thicker stuff just goes in so much easier and quicker.


Yes, what Karen and Kate said.  I've had a 20 gauge luer lock fly off the syringe trying to get Pen G through!  I really don't think they notice the difference between and 18 and a 20 anyway.  Getting poked is getting poked.


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## Mea (Feb 5, 2011)

New Goat Momma said:
			
		

> Tonight, suddenly he has decided he is not hungry and has a hard time standing up.  .


Coming in late here... but... is it possibly a case of Floppy Kid Syndrome ?   A  Tablespoon of baking soda in water came be a reall life saver if it is.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

Mea said:
			
		

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I was thinking the same thing...cuz he stopped eating and was'nt eatly regularly.  

Get him some baking soda right away...dont wait for the vets.  Cuz if its not it wont hurt him at all...but if it is and you dont give him baking soda right away...you may lose him!!!

I mix tablespoon baking soda, molasses and water and get it in him soon.
The molasses will give him sugar for energy..you can also use corn syrup if you dont have molasses.

Good luck...

And as for gauges for kids!!  Im with 18 all the way!!! 

Also did he get CDT shots yet???  If your going to vet today...get one!!

  Hope it works out for you!


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## helmstead (Feb 5, 2011)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> Also did he get CDT shots yet???  If your going to vet today...get one!!
> 
> Hope it works out for you!


Eeps, nope, never give a vaccination to a potentially sick baby!  

I hope there's an update soon.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 5, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

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Yes Big Oppsie!! Thanks for catching that!!!


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## 20kidsonhill (Feb 5, 2011)

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> ksalvagno said:
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My husband is always fussing at me, becuase he thinks I should use an 18 gauge needle instead of a 20 gauge needle with penn G.  Okay you all have convinced me.  Do I have to admit to him that he was right??? I htink I already had to do that about something else last week.  

And thanks for all the great information on this website.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 5, 2011)

Okay, I am ready to scream.  My daughter posted about the baby goat she and my grandaughter are trying to care for.  He's here now because they had to go into the city so I'm goat sitting.  I also suspect he may not make it through the night so I'd rather him here than there with grandaughter.

The vet put him on Nuflor but we are also giving him probios.  I gave him the baking soda and molasses with water by tube feeding.  It was about a 1/4 cup total when mixed up.  His gut is now horribly distended and he's worse.

Daughter gave him cmpk and a shot of fortified b complex.

He continues to have diarrhea.  I'm giving him subq injections of dextrose mixed with saline because at this point we dare not feed him more.

I'm at a total loss and hate seeing him like this.  Any ideas?  Any magic wands?


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## New Goat Momma (Feb 6, 2011)

He made it through the night and today.  He seems to be improving slightly.  My mother is taking care of him and I think she's lost it.  I walked in to her house today and she had a heat lamp rigged up over her and him in the rocking chair. 

Even though his age doesn't line up right, the symptoms all point to FKS so we're treating him for FKS.  Thanks to everyone for all your thoughts and input.


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## Mea (Feb 7, 2011)

New Goat Momma said:
			
		

> He made it through the night and today.
> 
> Even though his age doesn't line up right, the symptoms all point to FKS so we're treating him for FKS.  Thanks to everyone for all your thoughts and input.


So glad he is improving !!!     We have had kids that don't fit the age profile and the baking soda Still works wonders.  I tend to go for an "simple fix" first... then move up the scale to more complex ones.

  ( also... i should have said a teaspoon rather than a tablespoon.   I was thinking of multiple kid feeding...ie: lambar... rather than one bottle.  My apologies)


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 7, 2011)

New Goat Momma said:
			
		

> He made it through the night and today.  He seems to be improving slightly.  My mother is taking care of him and I think she's lost it.  I walked in to her house today and she had a heat lamp rigged up over her and him in the rocking chair.
> 
> Even though his age doesn't line up right, the symptoms all point to FKS so we're treating him for FKS.  Thanks to everyone for all your thoughts and input.


Glad he made it throught the night.  His age absolutley does fall into FKS range.  And they can go as old as 2 months...but it "generally" happens anywhere from 3 day to 21 days old...thats an average.  

I have included a site that you should review..be sure he's getting all the proper treatment..cuz they can make slight improvements with the baking soda..then turn quickly.  So make sure you cover all bases!!

http://goats.wetpaint.com/page/Floppy+Kid+Syndrome

Best of luck...I hope he does great!!!!!


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 10, 2011)

He ate his first bottle of milk in days, literally!!!  We're so excited.  He seems back to normal now.  

It wound up being the shots of C & D Antitoxin that seemed to do the trick.

I've no doubt it started as something else but seems it was the enterotoxemia that was causing the problems in the end.

Thanks again everyone for all the advice and thoughts.  We really do appreciate it!


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## jason_mazzy (Feb 10, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> I will use an 18 gauge needle even on a little one. The thicker stuff just goes in so much easier and quicker.


if you've ever injected yourself for any length of time in your life you wouldn't use an 18. I can't stand hitting myself with a 20 let alone an 18. 22 is just fine for thick stuff. I use a 25 for anythin watery stuff.


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## BlackSheepOrganics (Feb 10, 2011)

We have children who have had to have injections their entire lives due to juvenile diabetes (an autoimmune disease) and I've occassionally wished I could steal a few of their needles to use on the animals but the CC's are measured differently so I don't.  Their needles are very fine and short and you can barely feel it in comparison.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Feb 10, 2011)

I ended up with some 22s (I work for a vet and we get free boxes) and rather than one jab and the injection being done and over before the goat realizes what's happening I ended up have to poke them repeatedly just to finish the job.  Because it took forever to move the medication through the needle I had to restrain them twice as long and THEN they wanted to fight about it.  Being restrained ticks them off much worse than the actual injection, so the faster I can get the meds in them and let them go the easier it is on the goat.  I'd rather pay to order the 18s and decline the free 22s.


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## jason_mazzy (Feb 10, 2011)

Send me all the .22 you haver then!


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## Emmetts Dairy (Feb 10, 2011)

BlackSheepOrganics said:
			
		

> He ate his first bottle of milk in days, literally!!!  We're so excited.  He seems back to normal now.
> 
> It wound up being the shots of C & D Antitoxin that seemed to do the trick.
> 
> ...


   Im sooo happy he's doing better!!!  I love good news!!!  

C&D Antitoxin is great stuff!!!


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## Roll farms (Feb 10, 2011)

So glad he's getting better.

I tried to save some insulin syringes w/ needles when my FIL passed away to use on little kids.  They bend too easily, and after trying one time I tossed the lot.


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