# What a mess! Babies, rejection, replacement milk, fostering



## DianeS (Jan 10, 2011)

The last 28 hours have been HECTIC. 

My doe kindled yesterday. Eight kits. JOY!
But mom was being rough with the babies, so I removed them and the nestbox into the house. BOO
I returned the box hours later for nursing, and mom refused. BOO
Found out you could turn mom on her back and hold her still to allow the kits to nurse. YAY!
I tried that, and found mom had no milk. BOO!
When I examined them, some were wet and cool, so I rinsed them, warmed them, and returned them. Figured out later that mom had urinated on them. BOO!
Looked up replacement milk recipies online, made some up and fed the kits. YAY!
It took TWO HOURS to feed eight kits with an eyedropper. BOO!
Friends started helping me look for does that would foster these kits. YAY!
Found the local feed store does not carry supplies for orphaned babies. BOO!
Found teeny animal bottles and kitten milk replacer at Safeway (of all places). YAY!
Several people responded to my request for help with "no does available" BOO!

And finally one responded that she has enough does to foster maybe six of my eight kits. YAY!

And that's where it stands right now. I'm still making calls looking for a foster doe for two more kits. I feel like I've been on a roller coaster. 

Best wishes and prayers for these kits would be appreciated!


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## KellyHM (Jan 11, 2011)




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## tortoise (Jan 11, 2011)

They are going to die.  I've tried it with incubating them, feeding only blood serum for the first 24 hours, awake around to clock.  It's not worth it, they will die.  I've never had them live past 4 - 5 days.

They have a better chance in with a rough mom than bottlefed.

Breed mom right away (now) and if she doesn't care for her next litter, cull her.


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## therealsilkiechick (Jan 11, 2011)

tortoise said:
			
		

> They are going to die.  I've tried it with incubating them, feeding only blood serum for the first 24 hours, awake around to clock.  It's not worth it, they will die.  I've never had them live past 4 - 5 days.
> 
> They have a better chance in with a rough mom than bottlefed.
> 
> Breed mom right away (now) and if she doesn't care for her next litter, cull her.


totally agree with this. i've saved them till 2 weeks old hand feeding and still lost them. not worth the heartache and attachment. even if they do make it won't be long before they die from failer to thrive. kits r always better off with moms. for some reason replacements don't have what they need in it. 

i have had to feed babies on other moms to save them and hold on my lap and they made it. i also have fostered them with my other does with no probs. however i always put a drop of vannila on the kits i'm adding on their back. it is so she can't smell the other doe and doesn't know anything has changed. never had them not except them doing that.

she either doesn't have milk cuz u pulled babies to quick and it didn't let down or cuz u checked after she had fed them. they usually feed at dusk and dawn. if she keeps looseing litters u need to leave them in with her. if she is not experienced she never will be pulling the kits. i know it is hard but mother nature needs to take its course or she won't never learn to be a mom or be a good breeder. have faith in ur doe, she may loose a few litters but it's the chance u take and their is more a chance she will learn to be a good mom if she is allowed to. by taking them from her it's not giveing her or the babies the best fighting chance possible they have to make it.


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## tortoise (Jan 11, 2011)

I've read the 2-week old (weaning) deaths can be avoided by making poop pudding and feeding it to the babies, BTW.


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## dbunni (Jan 11, 2011)

tortoise said:
			
		

> They are going to die.  I've tried it with incubating them, feeding only blood serum for the first 24 hours, awake around to clock.  It's not worth it, they will die.  I've never had them live past 4 - 5 days.
> 
> They have a better chance in with a rough mom than bottlefed.
> 
> Breed mom right away (now) and if she doesn't care for her next litter, cull her.


I'm going to be the opposite in this one.  I have raised litters, from birth, on bottle.  But life, experience, and training (vet tech here) have all taught me what to and not to do.  The last litter was 12 ... 6 lived.  The 6 that did not make it were already killed by mom (NZ we purchased, first litter, she was eating them as they were coming out!)  The mother was immediately culled and the babies brought into my sick ward (boys old bedroom).   At 10 weeks the survivors were returned to the original breeder in trade for a new doe.  3 of them granded that year.  This is not the first time I have saved babies of various ages, and more than likely not the last.  In 30 years of rabbits it is going to happen.

Oh ... if this is truly a rough mom, not just inexperienced, they have no chance.  She will, more than likely, kill them.  If that is the option you choose ... I would rather cull the kits than make them suffer like that.  JMO.

Best of luck.  Kiss the kits.  As you are new to this, the best thing to do is find a doe that can take over for you.  Also ... stimulate the doe yourself to encourage milk.  Does work.  Put babies on her (I do not flip the bun, but put the bun & myself on a towel/blanket ... place mom between your legs on the blanket, slide kits under, holding her in place.  It is natural for a kit to nurse upsidedown, not right side up).

Good luck ...


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## Bunnylady (Jan 11, 2011)

This is one of the reasons that I breed my does in groups. In my 20+ years of breeding rabbits, I have had a few does that never accepted their litters, or simply had  no milk. I had one doe that had only two functional teats; the rest of her udder never developed. I play "put and take" in my nest boxes all the time, and have never had a doe savage or reject babies because of strangers in the nest (so I think trying to disguise the scent unnecessary). I have never bottle-fed a litter from day one, but I have raised a couple of litters of wild bunnies from about 2 weeks to independence, on milk replacer. While I heartily agree that the bunnies would be best raised by a doe, I don't feel that they are a lost cause if you can't find one.

After many years and many, many babies lost to cold, I learned to pull nest boxes and keep them in the house. I only take them out to their mothers for brief periods once or twice a day during cool weather. Most of my does have no problems learning to work with this system. I even pull the does in now; my hall closet becomes my maternity ward for the few days before they kindle. No, it isn't normal or natural, but well-handled does with good temperaments learn to cope with a lot!

Good luck with your litter. I'm sorry to hear that you have had to deal with so much frustration so soon.


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## DianeS (Jan 11, 2011)

YIPPEE! I found does to take in all eight kits! I'm so relieved!

To answer some of the questions that came up in this thread:

When I said she was "being rough" I meant that she was jumping in and out of the nestbox the way little children jump on beds. She was digging in the nestbox and smacking the kits with her paws. She even urinated on the kits. (One kit has a leg injury and he may not survive. The wet kits were found before they were too cool, thankfully, and I rinsed them off and dried them and warmed them up and they are active like the others now.) The kits would not have survived in the hutch with their mother, I'm sure of that.

I tried Bunnylady's technique of removing the nestbox and returning it for feedings, but mom literally had no milk. The kits tried multiple nipples without success. They latched on just fine if I held mom still, but she was dry. 

This is the doe's fourth litter. I was not her owner for the first three, but I was told all the kits from all the litters died between birth and day two. And that the owners did not know why, but that they also hadn't investigated all that closely. (Now I think I know why!)

This doe will not be bred again. She's an angora and therefore valuable for her wool, so I'll keep her, but only for the wool. 

An email chain that reached from Colorado to Pennsylvania and back again found me a breeder just 30 miles from me with two does that had lost their litters yesterday. The experienced mom took 5 of my kits and nursed them right away. The first-time mom has 3 of my kits and is still considering the situation. The breeder has more does due today, and will re-foster the 3 kits to them if necessary. This breeder also group-breeds, and I just happened to need help on the very weekend her does were all due. I'm sorry she lost her litters, but incredibly thankful she was willing to help with mine. I'll get regular updates and can come every week to take their growning-up photos. 

I always knew that breeding in pairs or groups was good for reasons like this, but it just became a firm rule of mine. I don't want to go through this mess again of having to bottle feed a couple meals while looking for a foster doe. I'd rather have them already prepared in-house.


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## chickenrunnin (Mar 24, 2011)

Thank God both of my girls had babies the same day. At day ten, my one got really ill all of a sudden and died. My other girl took on her 9 babies and I am bottle feeding three. I lost one and the other 2 are great, still very small but thriving. I thought to myself that I needed 2 at the same time being mommies as I am a good human mommy and a decent bunny mommy. But obviously the momma bunny does better. Im glad you kept trying!!


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## DianeS (Mar 24, 2011)

chickenrunnin said:
			
		

> Im glad you kept trying!!


So am I - all eight are now ten weeks old, back at my home, and doing well.


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