# Okay, I'm pretty sure they are seizures... she died today.



## dianneS (Nov 8, 2011)

Last winter I was in a great deal of distress with my little runt doe.  No one could diagnose her problem and she has seen three vets.  The only thing anyone can verify is that she has a heart murmur.  At one point a vet thought she had pneumonia, just from listening to her lungs, but that was a misdiagnosis.  Twice last winter, I thought she needed to be put out of her misery and twice I called the vet to come out and put her down.  Twice I called back and said "don't bother, she'll be okay."  She had had several of these episodes lasting from several hours to nearly two days.  

I've never seen one of her "episodes" begin.  I usually catch them in the middle.  This summer, she's been squeezing under the fence and "free-ranging".  Its fine since she never goes far and always squeezes back in with the rest of the herd eventually.  Well, she's been more spry and energetic than she's ever been in her life!  However, her episodes usually only occur in the winter months and they seem to be aggrivated by cold and DAMP in particular.  Another symptom is that her body temp drops dangerously low when she has one of these fits.

Its starting to get cold, so I've been watching her closely for any of these fits to occur again.  I got to see one yesterday.  It sure as heck looked like a seizure.  She snapped out of this one rather quickly.  I'm thinking that they are aggrivated by stress.  Perhaps the cold weather is stressful for her as well?  Tonight she had another mini one.  This one was also triggered by another stressful situation (caused by one of my drama queen does).

So, does anyone have any advice for how to deal with a goat with seizures?  Any suggestions on reducing her stress levels, or helping her cope with stressful situations?  And what should I do about the cold weather, it has such a negative impact on her.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 8, 2011)

Ok, so this seems to happen more as the weather gets cold and damp, and her body temp seems to drop when she has one...  Interesting..

I'm wondering....could it be the other way around?  As in, could she be having seizures *because* her body temp is dropping to dangerously low levels?

Think about it like your house's HVAC..  During the summer, the a/c system is working to keep the house cool; during the winter, it's in heat mode working to keep the house warm warm..  My thinking is that perhaps this doe's body works find in 'a/c mode' -- that is, when her body temp regulatory system is trying to stay cool -- but as soon as she goes into 'heat mode,' something goes haywire..  

I just went back and read a bit of your original posts on the matter..  Something struck me..  You said she would often lay down and _pant_ after one of these episodes...  I don't see my goats pant very often, and it only happens when they're REALLY HOT..  And I mean like...jet black, bred late and therefore extremely pregnant in like JUNE, walking uphill in cloudless midday sun..  They'll pant like dogs when they get that hot..

And in thinking of that, something else came to mind...a phenomenon known as "paradoxical undressing."  It's not at all uncommon to find victims of hypothermia naked, and dead..  The kneejerk reaction is to assume they died *because* they were naked, or that they were mentally ill or something like that, but that's not what happens..  What happens is that they got so cold that the body shunted blood flow to the core -- to the vital organs..  Their extremities got no blood at all, and yeah...they got really, really cold and numb..  Shunting bloodflow to the core takes a lot of energy, and eventually the body will lose its ability to restrict the flow of blood and WHOOSH...the victim gets a rush of core-warm blood to freezing cold arms, legs, fingers and toes..  Now, if you've ever gotten your hands really, really cold -- to the point that you can't feel them -- and then come inside and made the painful mistake of warming them up too quickly, you know how bad that BURNS..  It feels like your hands are on fire, right?  Well, imagine that sensation across _your entire body_ and it becomes pretty obvious why a hypothermia-addled victim might feel absolutely compelled to shed all their clothes in an effort to "cool off."

The goat version of that may be a goat that's suddenly gotten a rush of blood back to its skin and extremeties, and is panting to cool off -- despite having a dangerously low body temperature..  I'm not saying that's definitely what it is, of course...but there's some scientific precedence for such a theory!

Either way...what I'm hearing makes me *seriously* wonder is if this goat's body is, for whatever reason, simply unable to maintain a regular temperature in cold weather..  Perhaps her skin doesn't sense cold the way it should, and so the body doesn't react?  Perhaps there's something wrong with her hypothalamus?  Could be any number of things, but I'll tell you this much.....if only for the sake of science, I'd throw a goat-coat on this one and see if the number of incidents decreases..  

I'd also start looking into temperature-regulating drugs, and I'd put a bug in my vet's ear about my theory to get their take on it..


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## elevan (Nov 8, 2011)

Dianne - I'm sorry you're going through this again.  

Here's the previous discussion on this goat for anyone trying to help:  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=9450


The drug that I have experience using for seizures in mammals is Phenobarbital.  It might be worth a try.  You can get it as drops or pills.


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## Livinwright Farm (Nov 8, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Ok, so this seems to happen more as the weather gets cold and damp, and her body temp seems to drop when she has one...  Interesting..
> 
> I'm wondering....could it be the other way around?  As in, could she be having seizures *because* her body temp is dropping to dangerously low levels?
> 
> ...


 I hope you and your vet can find what her issue is.

I think cmjust0 could be onto something.  Which has me wondering, is the goat disbudded/dehorned? If so, I am wondering if potentially something happened during the process that caused her internal HVAC system to go on the fritz. It is a known fact that a fair amount of a goat's cooling system is found in their horns(by way of blood circulation). Either way(disbudded or horns intact), perhaps you could make sure that she has(make her a quilted one, cause I have found NO thick goat coats) a thick warm coat to keep her body nice and warm and try to keep her in the barn as much as possible during the winter. See if these changes help keep her from having these attacks. If there is a temperature regulating drug, I second trying to get her on one.  It could also be the stress of breeding season... this is the time of year for heat/rut too after-all.


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## dianneS (Nov 9, 2011)

No, she is naturally polled, never been disbudded.

The strange thing about her panting is that her body temp is super low, even when panting and her gums and lips are usually pale.  She got a bit upset last night and had a mini-fit (it was very warm yesterday) due to the herd being chased by my pony.  She was really panting at that time and visibly distressed but snapped out of it quickly.

The other strange thing is that these episodes will occur beginning in the fall, even though the majority of these fits happen on cold days, she's had a few of them on warm days too.  She's had a handful of these fits on 60-70 degree days.

Being able to free-range this summer and browse on specific weeds and plants seems to have done a lot of good for her.  I'm almost wondering if there is something she is eating during the growing season that is keeping these fits at bay?  Could it be the drop in the nutrients of the plants that is causing this?  I'm just thinking in that direction since some of her fits don't correspond with outdoor temps at times, so maybe its the dying off of the plant matter?  Just an idea since winter brings not only cold, but dead and dying pasture grasses too.

I am planning to get her a goat coat this year.  I waterproof one that I can leave on her all of the time, its just not cold enough yet.  We're still having 70 degree days here, but it drops into the 40's at night.


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## cmjust0 (Nov 9, 2011)

Since we're miles away from nailing anything down, I wouldn't dream of throwing anything out, so yeah...keep diet in mind.  My gut tells me that's not it, but who knows..  As for warm days vs. cool days not necessarily making a difference, consider also that our bodies aren't only keeping track of ambient temperatures to tell us what time of the year it is -- and what to do about it..  We also read the length of day, and whether it's 30 or 80 on a given day, the length of day _always_ shortens from day to day in the Fall..  Which is to say, even when it's 60, their bodies are still aware that winter's coming..

I also have to say that I find it interesting you'd say she was a runt, almost died shortly after birth, and that she's naturally polled..  That's actually why I'm leaning away from diet..  I just have a feeling that this one was born _different._


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## dianneS (Nov 9, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I just have a feeling that this one was born _different._


Oh yeah, I've come to terms with that.  Since no vet can give us a clear diagnosis and the only thing they can find is a heart murmer and seizure like behavior with drops in body temp, I've just accepted the fact that she's just not quite "normal".  We're going to try and keep her healthy and happy for as long as we can, but I have prepared myself for the day she may just have an episode she won't recover from.  She is just "different" indeed.  I really do think however, that she is experiencing a seizure type of attack rather than a heart issue.  I had a golden retriever years ago who had siezures too and they had no rhym or reason to them and each one was different.

The main factors that seem to contribute to these fits are:  Cold, damp weather, physical exertion (being chased by a mini horse), stress (herd mates upset, being chased by a mini horse _again_), and they only occur in the fall and winter.  I guess all I can really do is #1.  Keep her as warm and dry as possible,  #2.  Keep that da*m mini horse away from her!  #3.  Reduce any drama or stress in the herd and keep her well fed and nourished... #4.  Hope for the best!


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## RareBreedFancier (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm sorry you and your sweet doe are both going through this. 

I think *cmjust0* might be onto something with the seizures being caused by her dangerously low body temp. 

I know when my DH was very ill his internal temperature system went off the rails for a while. His body temp would drop dangerously low and I was warned by his specialist if I noticed him looking 'off' to take his temp because if it dropped to low he could go into convolutions. It was aggravated by stress and he spent months pretty much in bed with me taking care of everything and trying to make his life stress free. He did have some episodes on hot weather but it was much worse in cold weather.

I wonder if the reason she's been better over summer isn't because of what she's eating when she escapes but because she's not dealing with herd politics and other critters stressing her?


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## dianneS (Nov 10, 2011)

RareBreedFancier said:
			
		

> I wonder if the reason she's been better over summer isn't because of what she's eating when she escapes but because she's not dealing with herd politics and other critters stressing her?


Could be.  She's still able to escape these days and the only time she's had one of these episodes is when I open the gates and allow the others to graze in the big pasture with her (since their small pasture is getting over grazed this time of year).  When the drama ensues due to the herd not being accustomed to the new surroundings, she flies into one of her fits.


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## WhiteWaterFarms (Nov 26, 2011)

Any news? i feel for your little girl. she sounds so cute. Wishing you the best with controlling the episodes.


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## dianneS (Dec 2, 2011)

WhiteWaterFarms said:
			
		

> Any news? i feel for your little girl. she sounds so cute. Wishing you the best with controlling the episodes.


Its been unseasonably warm here and even though she had a few of these fits on warm days, she's had none since then.  They seem to be stress induced.  When she sneaks under the fence and free ranges, she is at her best.  Her rumen is fuller than its ever been and she's pretty fiesty most days.  Now the temps just dropped below freezing last night so we'll just have to wait and see how it effects her.  So far she's shown no signs of distress (knock on wood).

She is cute.







Here she is during one of her fits, getting warm by the fire.  This was one of the less dramatic ones that she snapped out of in a matter of minutes.






This is her in her sweater last year, she was in the house for several days with this episode.  The vet misdiagnosed her with pneumonia at that time.


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## Ms. Research (Dec 2, 2011)

Knocking on wood!  Hoping all is well and continues on a steady road.

She is  a sweetie.  Thanks for posting pics.

K


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## dianneS (Jan 14, 2012)

Well, she had the first bad "fit" of the season.  The temps dropped really low and the winds were blowing hard.  She was doing her usual screaming, staggering, panting and her body temp was really low.

I'm getting frustrated.  I knew I couldn't leave her out in the cold so I brought her in the house, put her in the basement on top of two flakes of hay.  I left the house for a while to run some errands because I couldn't stand the screaming.  I knew there was nothing I could do and nothing the vets could do.  I just wanted to keep her warm.

When I got home about two hours later, she was standing and no longer screaming.  A few hours after that she was walking around and pooping, not eating much but a few pellets of feed.  By the next morning I returned her to the herd and she's been fine ever since.  However, I did find a lot of clumpy poop in the basement in the morning?  

Who knows what's going on??  Getting her calm and warm seems to be the key to bringing her back around, but who know why and what is happening in the first place.  I just hope its a very long time before we have another one of these, they are so stressful for all involved.


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## poorboys (Jan 14, 2012)

I have heart problems, I too when stressed my body temp will fall, It usually last about 4 hrs before I can get myself warm enough, It's not the outside temp, it's internal,? just a thought. body shivering, hard labor breathing, feels like your freezing to death, but feel warm to the touch.


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## Beekissed (Jan 14, 2012)

If she were a human, I'd say cardiac insufficiency...all these symptoms can occur when someone has either poor nerve conduction to the heart(dysrhythmia) or if they have poor circulation _from_ the heart.  

As a runt it could be that she was just born with a heart defect and the symptoms become more marked under stressful situations.  When she is out on pasture, she probably doesn't have to compete for food and often gets out to graze on her own~no stress.   When she is in the house and being fed there, no stress.  

During fall and winter I'm sure she is having to shove into a feeder of some sort and may get pushed around by the other animals when this happens, therefore elevating her stress levels and setting off her symptoms.   The cold can be another stressor to her circulatory system but it just may be coincidental...it could be that this is the only time during which she has to compete for food with larger, more healthy animals.  

Cardiac patients have difficulty breathing when they have an episode as the blood is not being circulated properly and the increased respirations are the body's attempt to oxygenate all the tissues.  Improper circulation could also be causing the pale gums, cold extremeties and seizures which seem to be more episodic than chronic...when she isn't have a "spell" she has normal temp control, blood flow to oral mucosa, etc.

Since the vet has already isolated a murmur in her heart, I'd lay money on her having a congenital heart defect.


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## dianneS (Jan 14, 2012)

Yeah, I've just come to the conclusion that she's just defective in one way or another and she'll be with us as long as she's with us.  Its just that these episodes are so stressful for all of us.  The screaming is just unbearable but I have no other warm place to take her besides the house.  Some day we'll have heat to our garage so she can have a pen in there for times like this.  Maybe even put her in there when the weather is expected to be cold and harsh and possibly avoid one of these fits altogether.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 15, 2012)

Put a diaper on her and let her be a house goat!


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## dianneS (Jan 17, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Put a diaper on her and let her be a house goat!


That just might happen!


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## dianneS (Feb 12, 2012)

Okay the little goat only had two of her attacks so far this season.  Pretty good compared to last year.

This is crazy, but I'm starting to think her problem may just be a simple case of bloat?  Well, not _simple_, but apparently a pretty _severe _case of bloat.

I know in the beginning we considered bloat, I can't remember why we ruled it out anymore?  Anyway, these last two attacks took place right after she had been out free ranging on her own, eating a lot of lawn grass, fescue.  Her rumen was really full both times, and she would occasionally hiccup like she was trying to bring up her cud and couldn't.  She also had a lot of big clumpy poops last time.

I can say she did look _rounder _on her left side than her right with her last attack.  She did have free choice baking soda in front of her before the last one, but who knows if she ever touches it?  She may not.

Could it be that with her heart murmer that if she's getting so bloated as to compromise her lung and heart function that her body temp is dropping so low and she's just screaming and writhing in pain?  IDK, I'd feel pretty foolish if that is all it has been all this time.  I know that for some reason the vet ruled out bloat, perhaps just because her behavior was so extreme and dramatic?  I have to say that last year she was much smaller and didn't have as large a rumen as this year, so maybe she didn't _appear _to be bloated?  She is much bigger in general and has a much healthier rumen this year.  Maybe that's why the attacks are less frequent?

I'm giving her some more probios today.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 12, 2012)

What is planted in your lawn grass? It would be best to stay away from Fescue. The endophites in fescue is the problem. If your lawn was planted with grass for lawns, then those grasses really aren't good for animals. Maybe there is some bloat and some type of chemical reaction if she is eating some turf type grass or the fescue is the problem. Maybe when she gets out and eats the grass, just assume she will have bloat and treat her for it immediately. So hard to say. It sounds like you just gotta try things and see what happens.


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## dianneS (Feb 12, 2012)

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do.  If I see her stuffing herself on anything, I'll just treat for bloat right away and see what happens.  Or next time she has one of these attacks (_if_, knock on wood) I'll treat for bloat.

IDK, she snapped out of this last one really quickly, so she's improving over all.  She's much bigger and fiestier than last year.


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## cmjust0 (Feb 13, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> What is planted in your lawn grass? It would be best to stay away from Fescue. The endophites in fescue is the problem. If your lawn was planted with grass for lawns, then those grasses really aren't good for animals. Maybe there is some bloat and some type of chemical reaction if she is eating some turf type grass or the fescue is the problem. Maybe when she gets out and eats the grass, just assume she will have bloat and treat her for it immediately. So hard to say. It sounds like you just gotta try things and see what happens.


Mine eat fescue all day, every day, and Kentucky's definitely a 'summer slump' state when it comes to cattle..  Never seen any ill effects from it in my herd.


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## dianneS (Feb 25, 2012)

Well, we've had two days of wicked winds here.  It didn't seem to bother my little girl at all.  She was out free-ranging yesterday and I saw her this morning and she looked fine.

I thought that I might have heard one or two cries from her this morning but then never heard it again.  I went out to the pasture and there was no sign of her.  Thought maybe she slipped under the fence again.  Went to the barn to be sure, and there she was, flat on her side and stiff already.  She had some hay in her mouth and drool running down the side of her neck?  I don't know if this is a clue to how she died or not?

I guess we'll never really know what was wrong with her.  I feel bad that I didn't catch her in time and get her inside.  This could have just been another one of those get her inside and warm her up and she'll be fine episodes, but I didn't get to her in time.  I feel bad.  In a way, I'm relieved.  It was so stressful watching her suffer and listening to her scream.  I was always afraid of leaving home on cold windy days, or times when she seemed off.  I'm going to miss her, she was so cute and sweet.


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## Mzyla (Feb 25, 2012)

So sorry Dianne....but, like you said; in this moment of grief, there is also a relief.
She is in goat haven now and feels no more pain.
We, who have animals - need to accept and be ready and prepared for some joyous days and sad days as well.

By the way; I happen to read your 12 pages post from 2011 about your LGD Alex.
How is he doing these days?


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## ThreeBoysChicks (Feb 25, 2012)

Very sorry!


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## dianneS (Feb 25, 2012)

Mzyla said:
			
		

> By the way; I happen to read your 12 pages post from 2011 about your LGD Alex.
> How is he doing these days?


I had prepared myself to lose this goat a few months ago.  After three vets could not diagnose her, I just resigned myself to the fact that she'd just be with us as long as she was meant to be with us.

Alex is amazing these days!  He's matured into a wonderful guardian dog and he just impresses me more and more each day!  I couldn't imagine life without him!


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## fortheloveofgoats (Feb 25, 2012)

So sorry for your loss.  It seems that it might be good in one way though. She was lucky to have you as her momma, I hope you know that.


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## ksalvagno (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm so sorry Dianne. I'm sure you felt she was extra special with her problems and it is hard not to get more attached to them. You did everything you could and she had a great life with you.


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## Royd Wood (Feb 25, 2012)

So sorry you lost her but with your care and attention it sounds like she had a very loving extended live


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## dreamriver (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm so very sorry for your loss,  she was well loved while she was with you.


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## Roll farms (Feb 25, 2012)

So sorry.  You were the best goat mama she coulda had.


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## Queen Mum (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope you can take comfort in knowing that you cared for her when others would not have done so.  You gave her the best that you could.  She was loved and appreciated.  Animals know that.  And she passed from this life doing what goats do - eating and being happy.


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## dianneS (Feb 26, 2012)

Thanks everyone.

I was just thinking about this goat and when I added her to the herd, she was a single addition, I had always added new goats in two's or three's otherwise.  This girl was always a loner.  It was kind of sad, but she was very independent at the same time.  She hated cats and little dogs and loved to head butt them!  They were the only things smaller than her!  

I got this goat from a backyard breeder who had absolutely no real knowledge of goat keeping.... she was an idiot.  I always considered this goat a rescue of sorts.  Who knows what kind of congenital defects she could have had?  I'd like to smack that woman upside the head today!


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## Pearce Pastures (Feb 26, 2012)

So sorry


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## elevan (Feb 26, 2012)




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## aggieterpkatie (Feb 27, 2012)




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## Patchesnposies (Mar 14, 2012)

Dianne,  I just read your post about the death of your little doe.  I am so sorry.  You sure loved her and she knew it.

Deb


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## dianneS (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks so much everyone.


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