# Feeding corn



## Goatfarmer (Jun 17, 2009)

We are new to goat farming. Have a Saanen buckling and doeling, an oberhasli mix wether and an oberhasli doe. We have been reading alot and see alot of articles that say "chicken feed" causes problems with the males like kidney problems and such. Just wondering if anyone could tell us if cracked corn or whole corn has the same effect?


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## wynedot55 (Jun 17, 2009)

i used to feed my goats corn years ago.an i never had any probs.but i only feed 1 or 2 coffee cans pre goat.


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## Goatfarmer (Jun 17, 2009)

Were you feeding whole or cracked corn. Our goats love cracked corn but we have stopped giving it to them since weve been reading everything and people say its bad for their kidneys. Would cracked corn be any different than whole corn?


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## wynedot55 (Jun 17, 2009)

i really cant remember if it was whole or cracked corn.but i know it never hurt my goats.


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## helmstead (Jun 17, 2009)

Corn is terrible for goats - can lead to acidosis, hypocalcaemia, bloat, etc.


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## wynedot55 (Jun 17, 2009)

well then yall would hate the way i feed my goats.because i feed my goats a lil chicken feed an 16% dairy feed.an ive fed corn years asgo before it got as high as it is now.


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## helmstead (Jun 17, 2009)

A lot has changed over the years, Wynedot.  Goats years ago were FAR hardier than they are today.  That has been bred out of them, unfortunately.

Many people feed corn based feeds and get away with it, esp in the larger dairy breeds.  When we first got goats, the man we bought them from fed them whole corn, stale breads...and they stole sweet feed from his horses.  He SEEMED to get away with it, altho we know now that it was only because he had a high turnover (never kept one long enough for it to be ill, and when he lost them to something, he didn't bother to wonder what it was).  For us, 4 months into feeding sweet feed (goat formula, even) and our buck died from UC.  A couple months later, hypocalcaemia from it in a doe...and selenium issues from them stealing chicken feed...we learned our lessons and changed our ways.  For US, it wasn't working.

Feeding questions will garner a million different answers


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## Goatfarmer (Jun 17, 2009)

So is what you are saying is that we shouldnt even be feeding sweet feed?  We have stopped feeding the corn and started feeding 16% sweet "GOAT" feed from TSC. They are all healthy and seem to be doing well. ??


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## helmstead (Jun 17, 2009)

Nope, I don't recommend sweet feed esp for your boys.  It will fasttrack you to UC unless you counterbalance it with LOTS of AC.

Go with a pelleted goat feed.  If you can shop elsewhere - go with a Purina or ADM feed.  IMHO Dumor/TSC is bottom of the pile with it's high corn content and not-quite-right ph/ca ratio.


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## mully (Jun 18, 2009)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Nope, I don't recommend sweet feed esp for your boys.  It will fasttrack you to UC unless you counterbalance it with LOTS of AC.
> 
> Go with a pelleted goat feed.  If you can shop elsewhere - go with a Purina or ADM feed.  IMHO Dumor/TSC is bottom of the pile with it's high corn content and not-quite-right ph/ca ratio.


I agree with Helmstead ..leave the corn for the chickens. I use Purina as it is not that much more expensive than other brands and I know that Purina maintains strict quality control and testing of their feeds.  Improper feeding is one sure way to having health problems and vet bills.


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## Goatfarmer (Jun 18, 2009)

So where is it that yall buy this purina or pelleted goat feed?? What is the price for the pelleted or purina "GOOD" goat feed? We hate to keep changing feeds, its hard on them to keep doing that isnt it? I am thankful for any information that you can share, its the last thing we want to do is harm our goats. Thanks!


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## helmstead (Jun 18, 2009)

Just search for a local dealer on the mill's website.  Google ADM Alliance (my preference) or Purina Mills (for Noble Goat).

Expect to pay $10 to $15 a bag.


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## cmjust0 (Jul 10, 2009)

I was helping a buddy -- a serious goat guru -- this past weekend and his phone rang..  It was a friend of his with a really nice, really expensive young buckling with waterbelly.  He recommended drenching with as much apple cider vinegar as he could get down the goat and possibly clipping the pizzle...otherwise, wait and see.

When he hung up, he kinda shook his head and said "Yep...tried to save $2 on his feedbill by cutting it with cracked corn, and now it's probably gonna cost him a couple thousand dollar billy..."  



Make sure your feed is formulated with a 2:1 calciumhosphorus ratio..  Some feeds even have a little ammonia chloride added to prevent urinary calculi, too.


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jul 10, 2009)

not sure if this is beatin' a dead goat.. i mean ... horse...

but the original question was about chicken feed - from what i understand layer mix (for chickens) has a mineral that can be toxic to goats. so thats why you've heard not to give it to them

personally we give some sweet feed mixed (just a little handful) with 16% dairy goat pellets (as much as they want while milking 2x's a day) that we get from our local feedstore. i think its the AMD brand.

in the winter tho, we give a little cracked corn to keep them warmer - extra calories.


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## alba (Jul 15, 2009)

The main ingredient in Purina goat feed is corn according to their website.
http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODUCTS/PRODUCTS/Overview/default.aspx


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## helmstead (Jul 15, 2009)

Of all the Purina products, the Noble Goat line is the best.  Back when I used Purina - this is the feed I preferred:
http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODUCTS/PRODUCTS/NobleGoatGrower16/default.aspx

The feed we are using now is made by ADM.  The pellets are green, indicating a high alfalfa content...and you can even purchase a completely alfalfa based feed which is a wonderful product.

Corn is used in most goat feed (it's filler, cheap energy and empty calories), the AMOUNT of corn differs by brand.  If you look at the pellet, and it's yellow like chicken feed, try a different brand.  If it is brown or greenish, it is more oat/barley/alfalfa meal based.

Just because we know corn is bad for goats doesn't mean feed companies are going to stop making corn based goat pellets - I mean, they still make sweet feed for goats and market it for wethers and bucks without any supplemental AC.  Go figure.


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## alba (Jul 15, 2009)

Yes Purina Goat Chow also says it is a sweet feed in addition to having corn as the main ingredient.  So I take it alfalfa and oats would be a good feed blend for goats in general. You can get big bags of each and blend them together quite economically.


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## helmstead (Jul 16, 2009)

Nope.  It's not the same as buying a feed with vitamins and minerals added.  Are you going to add yeast?  Are you going to work the ca/ph ratio, adding things to get to 2:1?  Are you going to add copper and selenium, proteins, etc?  AC?  A coccistat?

By the time you buy the mixers to make it balanced & complete, you've actually spent more.

Some people do mix their own feed with success, but it's more than buying a bag of this and a bag of that.


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## currycomb (Jul 16, 2009)

unfourtunately, there is not alot of research done in the goat field, so many feeds are blended like cattle or horse feed. even though there are more goats being bred and raised, the $$$$$is not there like say in horses, so you must pick and choose the best feed for your goats,IMO


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## freemotion (Jul 16, 2009)

My philosophy is a bit different.  All my grain-eating animals....chickens, turkeys, guineas, and until recently, my horse....get whole grains.  I read an interesting study a few years ago on chickens on whole grains and the rarity of diseases such as coccidiosis when on this diet, so  I switched.  I also put some needed weight on my senior mare when I switched her over to lacto-fermented whole oats.  This was after doing some study on grains, digestibility and nutrient bioavailability and anti-nutrients, in human diets.

Although I would definitely not consider myself an experienced goat person, to my milking doe I feed whole barley (lactofermented to increase nutrients and protein) and a bit of oats if I am running low on barley...I have to travel to get it....soaked beet pulp, BOSE, alfalfa pellets, and any veggie scraps...a chopped carrot in winter if we have no scraps.  She gets alfalfa and grass hay, and free access to a weedy/grassy pasture.  She was a starved and pregnant rescue, and is glowing with good health and gives milk generously just a few months later.

I let them all into the woods on occasion or bring leafy tree branches to all the goats almost daily.

The baby doeling is getting a tiny handful of barley and BOSE, and alfalfa pellets twice a day.  She doesn't clean up the soaked food, so she isn't getting it in the hot weather.  She goes into a stall by herself at night with a full rack of alfalfa and grass hay, and a bundle of fresh leafy branches tied to the rack.

The pigmy-x pets get no grain, just pasture and grass hay, and some alfalfa when it goes into the communal hay rack in poor weather.

All have access to a red salt block, loose salt, goat minerals, and baking soda.  

I do NOT have purebred goats, though, they are mostly rescues, and all mixed breeds.  My current goal is to have hardy goats on a self-sufficient homestead, so it is a much different way of thinking.  If they are too "modern" to do well here, they will be sold.  My goal is hardiness.  Time will tell if this philosophy works with goats available currently.  When I was a teen back in the 70's, we had goats reproducing and providing milk and meat for the family on only grass hay and oats and pasture/browse, we didn't even know about minerals and baking soda.  We never had a loss or a sick goat, and always multiple, healthy, live births, trouble-free.  From what I've read here, though, a lot of hardiness has been bred out of modern purebreds.


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## ksalvagno (Jul 16, 2009)

Hey Freemotion,

When you say you are giving BOSE, do you mean the injectable BOSE?  I'm confused because I thought that was something you only give on occasion. Wouldn't the goats be getting too much selenium with getting it daily?


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## Farmer Kitty (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm wondering if that is a typo and she means BOSS (Black Oil Sunflower Seed)?


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## alba (Jul 16, 2009)

Do you think there is a lot of inbreeding that caused this weakness?


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## helmstead (Jul 16, 2009)

Oy...we go from discussing feeding corn to breeding out natural hardiness.  I often wonder if it's not so much we've bred out hardiness as we've learned SO much more about what healthy really looks like on a goat...

My closing:  I don't recommend feeding corn or corn based products as any large part of your goats diet.  If you do, be vigilant to the listed potential problems and prepared to treat for them.

Remember, a goat wouldn't find whole or cracked corn out in nature...just a lil thought for you to chew on.


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## freemotion (Jul 16, 2009)

I meant BOSS....black oil sunflower seeds!  I do have BOSE speakers in my office....

I have no clue about the purebred goat industry.  I just read what helmstead writes, and all the stuff she has to do to keep her goats going, and she once stated that modern goats aren't as hardy as they were years ago.  I hope I paraphrased that correctly, if not, my apologies, Kate.  That statement helped me understand why, as a kid, we had very healthy and productive animals without a single pharmaceutical and no access to much variety in their feed.  We did, now that I think of it, get produce scraps from the local grocery once a week through the long Maine winters, and our goats and meat rabbits got lots of good stuff from these boxes.  That probably helped.  

And the farmers still put manure on their fields, rotated crops, rested fields with green manure crops, and GM and Round-up ready were phrases that hadn't been coined yet.  

The few people with goats generally let them roam free in the very rural areas, browsing at will.  They were very hardy critters, natural selection was at work!

I am not up on modern goat breeding, but I have been deeply involved in other animal worlds, and know that when you breed for specific traits, it is at a price.....and the cost is usually HUGE.  The judges at the shows reward extremes, and it doesn't matter that the animal cannot function normally.....they just have to remain healthy enough long enough to pick up that ribbon, usually while still a juvenile.  So if they break down in young or mid-adulthood, who cares?  We have the traits we were going for, so what if the animal can hardly stay alive long enough to reproduce.  OK, I am exaggerating now, so note the sarcasm! 

In the horse world, the ones that win at conformation are not the ones who win at performance.  That is just wrong, imo.  

I want hardy goats who can reproduce and give a reasonable amount of milk and meat, I don't need the quickest weight gain, or the huge amounts of milk per goat, or the longest lactation.  I am not making my living at this, it is for me and my family.  So my philosophy is not mainstream, and my feeding program will not be sufficient for many of the goats out there.  So do your own research and experiment with care and close watchfulness if you choose to make changes.  What is good for one individual may not be ideal for the next.


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## helmstead (Jul 16, 2009)

Very well said.  I had something like that typed, and decided not to get into it haha.  

I agree wholeheartedly with what you intend to accomplish...


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## lilhill (Jul 17, 2009)




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## kstaven (Jul 18, 2009)

freemotion said:
			
		

> I meant BOSS....black oil sunflower seeds!  I do have BOSE speakers in my office....
> 
> I have no clue about the purebred goat industry.  I just read what helmstead writes, and all the stuff she has to do to keep her goats going, and she once stated that modern goats aren't as hardy as they were years ago.  I hope I paraphrased that correctly, if not, my apologies, Kate.  That statement helped me understand why, as a kid, we had very healthy and productive animals without a single pharmaceutical and no access to much variety in their feed.  We did, now that I think of it, get produce scraps from the local grocery once a week through the long Maine winters, and our goats and meat rabbits got lots of good stuff from these boxes.  That probably helped.
> 
> ...


I agree 99.9999999% For the other 0.0001% I have to say there is that very rare animal that just puts it all together. Confirmation, performance, etc... Only once in my life have I seen it and she was a guernsey cow.


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