# Lionhead color/pedigree breeding question



## Lionhead101 (Oct 30, 2020)

Hello I am hoping for help from those people who know and understand rabbit color genetics. I have a trio of pedigree lionheads from a reputable breeder. I'm excited about getting into showing after my first kits hopefully. My main goal is body type but color genetics are so interesting and confusing. Please help with color combinations. 
My buck is a black tort his mom was a rew and dad was a black tort. Grandparents are rew, blk tort, black, and blk tort. In his great grandparents line he has 2 siamese sables, black and black tort.
My doe is siamese sable her mom was rew and dad was siamese sable. Grandparents were 2 siamese sables, a rew, and a seal. After that great grandparents were mostly siamese sable with a smoke pearl, rew, sable point, and black. 
Other than rew(I know I might see some) what will I most likely see? Any help or knowledge is awsome as I am trying to learn. I have done a bunch of reading. Thank you for any expertise!


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## Bunnylady (Oct 30, 2020)

Buck aaB_CcD_ee

Doe aaB_cchlcD_E_

All offspring will be self-patterned; no Agouti or Tan-based
No Chocolate showing on the pedigree, so Chocolate-based colors unlikely (but I won't say impossible)

Likely colors: Black, Black Tort, Siamese Sable, REW, Sable Point; can't rule out dilute versions (Blue, Blue Tort, Smoke Pearl)

Sorry to be so short, but it's late and I've got to get up early. G'night!


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## Lionhead101 (Oct 31, 2020)

So if you don't mind...same question as above. My buck being the same as above but now paired with my other doe. She is a rew her mom was a sable point dad was a rew. Grandparents were siamese sable, sable point, rew, and sable point. Great grands had seal, siamese sable, sable point, rew, black tort, in them.
Also once I get some babies I should be able to fill in the rest of thier genetics right? Thank you for any and all info!!


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## Bunnylady (Oct 31, 2020)

Buck aaB_CcD_ee

Doe a___cc__e_

With all of those self-patterned ancestors, it's pretty unlikely to have any Agouti or Tan-pattern genes slipping through with the REW's, but without knowing what the siblings of those ancestors are, I can't entirely rule them out. 

Once again, Chocolate is unlikely, but not impossible

Likely colors Black, Black Tort, REW, maybe dilute versions, though with so much non-extension in her background, she may have two non-extension genes (ee), in which case, all you'll see is Black Tort and REW.


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## Lionhead101 (Oct 31, 2020)

Bunnylady said:


> Buck aaB_CcD_ee
> 
> Doe a___cc__e_
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your help. I will be curious to see what I get. For now my main focus is body type and showable colors although I sure do like the smoke pearls but the whole dilute process is hard for me to get a grasp on.


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## Niele da Kine (Oct 31, 2020)

Not a lot of dilute probability since there's no known recessive 'd's.  They may still be there hiding behind the dominants, though.  You need two recessive 'dd' in order for the dilute colors to show up on the bunny.  It's still possible, but not probable.

With the second pair, you're likely to see a lot of torts.  I don't track the sable (which requires cchl gene) or sable point genes much since we don't have much of that in the herd here.  FWIW, though, the cchl gene can hide for years.  We just got our first dark sable bunny here after ten years of pretty much breeding rabbits descended from the original eight we started with so recessive genes can be recessive for a really long time and then still show up generations later.


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## Lionhead101 (Oct 31, 2020)

Niele da Kine said:


> Not a lot of dilute probability since there's no known recessive 'd's.  They may still be there hiding behind the dominants, though.  You need two recessive 'dd' in order for the dilute colors to show up on the bunny.  It's still possible, but not probable.
> 
> With the second pair, you're likely to see a lot of torts.  I don't track the sable (which requires cchl gene) or sable point genes much since we don't have much of that in the herd here.  FWIW, though, the cchl gene can hide for years.  We just got our first dark sable bunny here after ten years of pretty much breeding rabbits descended from the original eight we started with so recessive genes can be recessive for a really long time and then still show up generations later.


Thank you! I am taking in all information I can. I have a book coming (ABC's rabbit genetics). Every time I think I'm starting to understand genetics and colors I read something that makes me think nope I don't get it at all! But it's so fascinating. I hope to get some black torts, rews, and siamese sables from these guys but in the future would like to explore working with just siamese sables and smoke pearls. How should I work towards achieving that?


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## Niele da Kine (Oct 31, 2020)

REWs are really easy.  REW bred to REW = 100% REW.  In order to get the albino, it requires a double recessive 'cc' and that's the most recessive of the 'C' genes.  So, once you have a REW it's already got two of the most recessive C genes.  I tell myself that the C gene is for Color.  If there's a dominant, then you'll see Color on the bunny.  If it's a pair of recessives, "cc", then no color which is albino.  

The C gene also has several other genes there some of which are more dominant than others.  
C = Full Color (most dominant)
cchd = dark chinchilla
cchl = light chinchilla
ch = Himalayan (that's the name angora folks use, it may be 'Pointed' or 'Siamese'?
c = Albino (most recessive)

In order to get an albino, you must have two of the most recessive C genes (cc) and albino is a 'whitewash' that will cover over any other genetic color of the rabbit.  So, even if the rabbit is all dominant color genes except for the two recessive 'cc's  ( i.e. "A_ B_ cc D_ E_" ) it will be an albino and the albino whitewash will be all that you will see.

This also means that an albino rabbit CAN NOT have the chinchilla or Himilayan (Siamese?) genes because if it did, those colors would show up because they are more dominant than the very recessive 'cc' used to make REWs.

Tortoiseshell is when the black color doesn't extend over the body of the bunny leaving just the yellows.  Torts require a double recessive on the E gene, "ee".  The E gene is much easier than the C gene.  It only has E and e.  If there's a dominant E, then the color of the bunny goes across the whole body of the bunny.  If there's a double recessive, ee, then the black color doesn't extend over the whole body.  E = Extension (of color over the whole body)  ee = non-Extension.

Tort bred to tort = 100% tort.
Tort bred to a bunny who had a tort parent = 50% torts and 100% offspring that can engender torts.

Here's a link to someone who has already done a lot of explaining on the sable gene: https://www.barrowbunnies.com/the-sable-gene.html I've got to get out into the real world and get some work done now. Rabbit color genetics is definitely falling down the rabbit hole.


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## Lionhead101 (Oct 31, 2020)

Niele da Kine said:


> REWs are really easy.  REW bred to REW = 100% REW.  In order to get the albino, it requires a double recessive 'cc' and that's the most recessive of the 'C' genes.  So, once you have a REW it's already got two of the most recessive C genes.  I tell myself that the C gene is for Color.  If there's a dominant, then you'll see Color on the bunny.  If it's a pair of recessives, "cc", then no color which is albino.
> 
> The C gene also has several other genes there some of which are more dominant than others.
> C = Full Color (most dominant)
> ...


That website was so helpful and your information is great. Gives me a lot to think about. It's all so interesting. Thank you!


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## Bunnylady (Oct 31, 2020)

I don't know if it will help, but here's a thread I started on the subject a while back:

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/rabbit-coat-color-101.38256/




Lionhead101 said:


> in the future would like to explore working with just siamese sables and smoke pearls.



I love the Siamese Sables and Smoke Pearls too, but you can't actually work only with them. Y'see, to get the shading of the Siamese Sable/Smoke Pearl, you must have either cchlc or cchlch at the C locus. That's one copy of the shaded gene (cchl) and one copy of either Himalayan (ch) or REW (c). Breed two of those animals together, and some of the resulting offspring will be Siamese Sables (cchlc or cchlch). Some will be Seals (cchlcchl), animals that are so dark they look nearly black, but with just a hint of the Siamese-type shading. And of course, some will be REW (cc) or Himi (chch), unless you bred a cchlc to a cchlch. In that case, you could wind up with a chc, which is a Himi with smaller, lighter "points."

Notice that I said you will get SOME of each of those colors, not "25% of this kind, 50% of that," etc. That's because, in the real world, eggs and sperm join together totally without regard to what the others in the litter are pairing up with. If you could do the cross enough times to get 1000 offspring, you would get pretty close to 250 of one type, 500 of another, and 250 of the third, but in a sample group as small as one litter, you could even get100% of only one color, and it would be perfectly normal.


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## Bunnylady (Oct 31, 2020)

Niele da Kine said:


> . The E gene is much easier than the C gene. It only has E and e.



I'm sorry, but this is not correct. The E series has at least 4 alleles

Es -Steel
E - normal extension
ej - harlequin
e - non-extension

At least in this area, harlequin used to be pretty common in Lionheads, Steel a bit less so. Steel is one of those places you only want to go when you have a firm grip on both rabbit coat color and your sanity.


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## Lionhead101 (Oct 31, 2020)

Bunnylady said:


> I don't know if it will help, but here's a thread I started on the subject a while back:
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/rabbit-coat-color-101.38256/
> 
> ...


And those are some of the reasons I feel nowhere near ready to work with those colors 😂. But I hope someday to feel comfortable and knowledgeable enough to dive into shaded varieties. Thank you so much your information really helped me get a handle on some of the stuff I had been reading. I think I have a much better idea of what my first litters may look like.


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## Lionhead101 (Nov 1, 2020)

Bunnylady said:


> I don't know if it will help, but here's a thread I started on the subject a while back:
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/rabbit-coat-color-101.38256/
> 
> ...


So it sounds like I would need to keep around more breeding stock if I work with shaded varieties. I could possibly get a siamese sable out of my first pairing but it sounds like I need a rew and maybe a pointed white(himi gene right?) to achieve smoke pearls and sable points. Rew keeps color correct and pointed whites darken mask. But that I think also depends on what is in everyone's background...maybe more work than I'm ready for...I am excited to work on my rew and black tort quality. I know I will get those. If I get a great looking siamese sable I would be thrilled. I can't thank you enough for your patience while I try to understand!


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## Niele da Kine (Jan 27, 2021)

Ooops!  BunnyLady is absolutely right!  I don't have the harlequin or steel in the herd here so I forget about those options on the E gene.


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