# Sharing our copper / selenium problem ...Sept. update / pics pg 8



## Roll farms (May 24, 2011)

Some of my goats look like CRAP.

Some of them look fine.  Mostly the boers.  The Toggs look mighty fine, too though...Our bucks all look ok, although the Nub buck is still red in the rump even though he got an entire bolus in March.

Relevant stuff:
All does had selenium (BoSe) 5 and 2 wks prior to kidding.
All does had really, really crappy hay for 5 wks late winter (Feb-early March).
All does given copper sulfate drench last fall (Sept).
All does given copper bolus this winter (March) when their coats were dull / reddish / curly.
All does have been dewormed (if needed) and have good/ decent eyelid color / fecals.  (Took a random sample in a couple weeks ago...nobody had a high worm load).
All does given ADM goat power mineral daily as a top dress and it's put out 2x a week free choice.

Penny, a black Ob...turned almost completely red and is currently half bald. 
Her skin all along her topline is dying and sloughing off, hair and all.  ICK.
I put cyclence on her 2 days post kidding b/c I noticed she had some seriously dry skin.  Vet thinks it's an allergic reaction to the cyclence.
(I used 2 cc on her, she's a 95# doe).
She was ALSO on Pen G for 14 days for a post-kidding uterine infection. 
AND...I injected her w/ ivo.  Nothing like muddying up the water, eh?


BUT...she's eating / pooping / peeing fine and produced 10.5# of milk yesterday and today.  

Patch, a Boer I bought in January, had a realllllly thick / rough looking coat when I got her, lots of thick mohair stuff.  We exposed her to a buck and saw her bred in late January.  Put her out w/ the herd and noticed she was getting pushed away from the feed (by much smaller / younger does).  I tried to let her 'tough it out' and find her place but she started looking alarmingly thin so we dewormed her (pale eyelids), brought her in to a seperate stall w/ our most friendly boer doe, and she still continued to look 'poor'.
Brought her into the barn a couple weeks ago.  Noticed she had scaly leg mites, gave her a thorough brushing, injected her w/ ivo and put cyclence on her.

SHE BLEW HER ENTIRE COAT...in 4 days.  WTH?  I mean down to bare skin, it looked like we slick shaved her.  NO hair.  No broken skin...just...bald.

Kept her in the stall b/c it was still getting cold at night and gave her extra rations.  She's gained a lot of weight back and her eyelids have pinked up.  Got her up on the stand last week to check her over and...under her skin she is completely covered w/ small bumps, like a rash.   ALL over.  



I had the vet out last week to draw blood on several does.

He thinks Patch's problem is a bacterial dermatitis 'thing'....she's been on Pen G since Thurs. and was given a bath in HibiClens....the bumps are going away.  Now she has the seriously dry scaly skin thing going on.
Her hair is coming back in just as soft and baby fine as can be.

He also confirmed what her empty udder told me...she ain't bred.  Either didn't take or lost the pregnancy at some point.

I had him pull blood from Penny, Patch, Foxy (the ultra thin but fleshy doe, b/c she has a rough / curly coat), Dazzle, who's fine but got perpetually dry skin and pale eyelids) and Derri....who looks and acts fine.  She'll be our 'baseline'.

I know blood tests aren't as accurate as a biopsy, but I'm not willing to kill any of my girls to get truly accurate results. 

I'll let y'all know if I find out anything useful...should be next week.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 24, 2011)

I think you posted once, long ago that too much copper can present with symptoms identical to a deficiency.  Having bolused, drenched, and provided free choice minerals is it all that likely they are deficient?  Is it more likely that Penny is getting too much? 

That's a real stumper, Roll.  In particular because you're not willy nilly about nutrition with your herd.

Looking forward to some experienced responses.


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## freemotion (May 24, 2011)

Glad it's not just me.....no bald goats here, but some rusty thighs and frizzled coats.  Did all that you did.  Big difference here was a batch of hay, everyone went south within a month of getting that.  It looked like great hay, but was not leafy, was second cut but a bit stemmy, and all grass.  Probably from heavily fertilized fields.  Wish I could get someone to bale up a field of weeds for me, we have great goat weeds in the neglected fields around here!

Hmmm......think I'll start asking around a bit...


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## 20kidsonhill (May 24, 2011)

I think we are having a similar problem with our hay this past winter, we had a very dry summer, and even the farmer commented that his plan was to fertilize heavy so the grass would grow like crazy when it did finally rain.  the hay seemed very nice, not old or coarse and the goats ate it really well, but everyone seems so rough coated coming out of the winter, worse than I remember in past years.  

I can't decide if it is me just getting pickier or what is up with it.


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## ksalvagno (May 24, 2011)

I'll be interested in hearing your results. I'm having the same basic problems you are having. I have to believe that this weather has some input into this. My girls with the staph or whatever it is are on Excede and cleaning udders with Hibiclens. I copper bolus'd in December and April. My girls also got a Bose shot 4 weeks prior to birthing. I use Sweetlix Meatmaker goat mineral which they have free choice. I still have some fish tails and some goats have a rough coat.

I decided to try Dr Pollards Immune Booster herbs. So they have been on it for a few days now. Will see what happens. I am also giving them organic Iodine. I don't have a local source for kelp and it is just too cost prohibitive to buy and ship.


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## jodief100 (May 24, 2011)

Same problems here.  Red coats, fishtail and weak kids at birth.   We ran out of hay so the goats had to go on exclusive pasture a little earlier than I would have liked.  There was plenty but it was all early growth.   

No decent hay to be found, the pasture was better.  People were selling two year old hay at $5 a bale.  

The round bales my nighbor put of for his cows were solid mold on the bottoms. 

I really hope this torrential rain doesn't stop and not start again till Novemebr like it did last year.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 24, 2011)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Same problems here.  We ran out of hay so the goats had to go on exclusive pasture a little earlier than I would have liked.  There was plenty but it was all early growth.
> 
> No decent hay to be found, the pasture was better.  People were selling two year old hay at $5 a bale.
> 
> ...


You wont hear me complaining about all these rain, even if I have to worm more and treat for cocci more.


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## poorboys (May 24, 2011)

i had some after kidding that looked like crap too, i dosed them with ivermic 1% injectable. they looked like they had mange, one i forgot what i was doing and gave her the dosage of ivermec plus, but everything came out fine, they all have nice shiney coats, but they do need copper bolus, the black ones have red tints on them. so between that and the cl deal have my hands busy.


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## Our7Wonders (May 24, 2011)

I've been posting about this same kinda stuff going on in my does - since back in January.  Clean fecals, rough coat, serious shedding (in the middle of winter), pale eyelids, scaley skin.  

I'm new at this and don't have a baseline to compare to. It's frustrating.  My does are losing condition now too.  Milk production fell over the last couple days.  I just started adding rice bran oil for the last couple days trying to get some weight back on them - I'm hoping the drop in milk is because of the new supplement - the decline started the day after adding the oil.  I'm hoping they bounce back quickly.

I've been suspecting hay all along, it's the only variable here that could account for it.  It looks good to me, but I'm a hay novice.  It's got lots of alfalfa leaves all through it and the goats gobble it up, but I'm wondering if it's not covered in pesticede/herbicide/fertilizer junk.  I tried to get a hay analysis but there isn't anyone local that can run it for more than just the basic protein content.  I can fork out an arm and leg and ship it off somewhere else to have them run it, but by the time I spend for that I could buy a ton of organic alfalfa when it's ready.  I can't affor $12 a bale so my poor girls are having to suffer with crap hay until new hay is cut and available here.  I'm trying to add everything else I can think of to their feed to help compensate for the lack of nutrition in their hay.  I still have yet to do blood work on all of them - it's my next step. 

Please keep us posted Roll, I'd love to know the results.

Debbi


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## cmjust0 (May 24, 2011)

I really think the red hiney/fishtail thing *can be* copper, but that it also may not be copper related at all..  I've got some does that are red-hinied with fishtails, and that's after the whole herd's gone through like 200lbs of really good mineral with good levels of highly-bioavailable copper over the last couple years..  And they're up on their selenium..

I dunno what it is, but...well, I'm just not convinced those are strictly symptoms of copper/selenium/mineral deficiency.  I think they're just things that people happened to have noticed, and things that -- for whatever reason -- have a higher probability of going away after a dose of copper.

Let us know what ya find out.  And good luck.


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## Ariel301 (May 24, 2011)

I had to feed some really crappy hay all winter too, and my goats look awful. Rough coats, flaky skin, thin coats on the older girls, pale eyelids, fish tails, the does are skinny, and the kids are a little thin and not quite as big as they ought to be, despite deworming everyone, free-choice mineral, and mineral and calf-manna hidden in their grain. I think the hay I got was just really, really lacking in EVERYTHING. My neighbor's goats got about the same way over the winter, and after a few weeks of feeding them large doses of a good mineral, she's seeing improvement. We have a real problem with feed stores here not carrying anything for goats, and not doing special orders, and having a bag of mineral shipped from Jeffers is rather out of my budget, but that's what my neighbor finally did. Then we went into the feed store and harrassed them into ordering us a bunch. It should be here this week. I drenched my goats with a large dose of copper sulfate about a month ago and saw no improvement.

I also got a load of the best hay I could find, had to pay $18 a bale for it, but at this point, I don't think I can skimp on anything for a while. :/


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## whetzelmomma (May 24, 2011)

It's been a rough year for a TON of goatie people I know!! Keep us posted if you hear more!! Copper/Selenium info and theory is something I'm super interested in right now.


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## helmstead (May 24, 2011)

The variable I can't comment on is the copper drench...so I don't know how that might affect toxicity.

I would be curious of the molybdenum levels in the hay.  This interferes with copper absorption, and from what I understand heavy fertilization, drought, etc can effect the levels to such a high point that it's extremely difficult to get in front of the deficiency.

It would be interesting to see what your circulating levels are.  Since copper is stored in the liver, you wouldn't see toxicity unless they dumped it for some reason...but if circulating levels are high, I'd just bet the liver levels are too high, also.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 24, 2011)

I thought molybdenum levels in the hay was more of an alfalfa hay problem, but could be wrong about that, and too tired to  look it up right now.
 Besides feeding grass hay from a drought season, we have two major changes in our feeding this winter, we fed alfalfa for the first time, one 40 lb bale a day per 20 does, and we added beet pulp to their feed at the rate of 1 cup of dry beet pulp per doe.  The girls milked/nursed like crazy, but I am seeing some of the worst hair coats ever, and we struggled with hoof problems this winter.   

I am keeping my fingers crossed that now they are weaned and back on only pasture and loose minerals, we will see some major improvements in them before breeding season.


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## freemotion (May 24, 2011)

The leaves are not fully out here on all the trees, but as soon as they are, I'll be out there with my loppers cutting down branches for the girls.  Only the sugar maples are fully leafed out, and I only have enough for the kids right now.  Watch out, trees, here I come!

We had a major drought here last summer and the farmers probably fertilized like crazy in the fall.


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## Roll farms (May 24, 2011)

Well, I've got my husband on one side telling me "you're giving them too much stuff." and the vet on the other side telling me, "It sounds like you're doing all the right things." and me sitting smack dab in the middle w/ a bunch of crappy-lookin' goats I'm worried about.

Blood tests were the only thing I could think of to give me some *real* idea of what's what....

Penny turned red last year and I drenched her w/ copper sulfate a lot and gave her red cell daily for a good while....later, when we did our CAE testing I had him pull blood from her and Hillary (who looked wonderful) and check it.  Penny was 'high' copper, and Hillary was 'low normal'.
So Penny did NOT get copper sulfate this fall (because she was already testing high) but did get the copper bolus in March....because by then she was turning red again.

Another 'odd' thing...Penny is the mineral-snarfing-est creature EVER.  She'd eat it daily if I'd let her.  I would think / always thought that if they didn't 'need' it, they didn't eat it.  Not her...she loves the stuff.

So her issue could be overdose, partly what I give her and partly what she eats on her own.  Or she could be deficient and that's why she's always a mineral hog....

But Patch looked like crap when I got her, and wasn't here for the drench, just the bolus.

I *do* know the hay they've got now (its so pretty and greeeen, and they actually eat it instead of waste it) was NOT fertilized...I double checked.

I just want to know if I need to keep bolusing, stop bolusing, stop BoSe-ing, do more BoSe-ing, etc. etc.  
Or do I need to stand on my head while playing the banjo and singing "Oh Canada" or something...because for all my efforts and fretting and trying all I can....I may as well be....since they still look bad.

     

Got the bill in the mail today...OUCH...how come the bills come faster than the results?


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## 20kidsonhill (May 25, 2011)

OUr vet says, loose minerals should always be more than enough, and my husband is like your husband, he is worried about them getting too much.  I am trying to do something in between, We decided to do one bolus a rear in the spring, with the hopes it would help build up their blood levels before breeding, plus help with barber pole worms, and I only give 2cc of Bo-se, instead of the 3 or 4 they would actually need by weight.  They get two shots of Bo-Se a year, one before breeding, one before kidding.  


I was really hoping we would see an amazing change in hair coat after bolusing, but I haven't noticed really much of anything,  Since I talked my husband into trying to do it, and he hates bolusing.  But lucky for me even though he doesn't like doing it, he is very good at it. 

So far over the past 4 or 5 years of trying a new thing here and there, we have seen the most change in our goats after using equimax horse wormer paste. Within a week, it was amazing. Even my husband noticed with in 2 weeks how much better the goats looked and how shiny they started to get.  

It isn't cheap to use at 3 or 4 dollars per adult goat. I don't use it on the younger goats that will be sold, I try not to use too much off label for goats going to market, Cocci is pretty much the only thing we treat them for, since we market around 4 to 5 months of age.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 25, 2011)

Bill for the blood tests?  I will be very interested in the results.  We've only had one herdmember who's been rough looking this year and thanks to some overpriced alfalfa hay he is looking sleek again.  Even with good grass hay, grain, and plenty of alfalfa pellets he wasn't improving how I'd hoped.  As soon as I switched him to alfalfa blend hay he started making drastic improvement.  Who knows...


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## Roll farms (May 25, 2011)

> We decided to do one bolus a rear in the spring,


OUCH...glad I'm not on of your goats..

(I know that was a typo...but I had to...)

Yeah, Nicki, the bill for the tests, farm call, Purdue's fees, etc...for 5 does...$350.00  

Penny's bill 2 wks ago for pullin' her kid was only $85!


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## 20kidsonhill (May 25, 2011)

I needed a laugh this morning, I have a head cold, my neck hurts, our air conditioning wont come on, 86 today, 93 tomorrow. I have noticed the older I get the harder it is to adjust to tempurature changes, I have had atleast 3 hot flashes already this morning.


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## ksalvagno (May 25, 2011)

I feel your pain on the bill. Seems it is $50 here and $50 there for each thing they do. Then if you have more than one blood test run, you are charged for each blood test done.

I have been using Hibiclens on my girls with the staph on their udders. Well, it seemed to have stopped working for 2 of my girls. It worked on all my other girls but the worst cases just weren't clearing up. So I resorted to my alpaca stuff and put witches brew (aka Camelid Skin Mix) on their udders. I can't believe the difference in just one day. So I'm hoping it will finish taking care of my problem.

I will let you know how the immune booster herbs and iodine work on my girls too. I'm hoping that will improve the coats on my rough coat girls.


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## Roll farms (May 25, 2011)

Oooh, what is this witches brew / camelid skin mix you speak of???

(Penny's really starting to freak me out w/ the hair loss...it's now going down into her sides...)


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## elevan (May 25, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Oooh, what is this witches brew / camelid skin mix you speak of???
> 
> (Penny's really starting to freak me out w/ the hair loss...it's now going down into her sides...)


http://www.lightlivestockequipment.com/WitchesBrew.asp


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## ksalvagno (May 25, 2011)

Emily - did you just do a search on it or did you already know?

Yes, Light Livestock Supply is the one who has it.


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## elevan (May 25, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Emily - did you just do a search on it or did you already know?
> 
> Yes, Light Livestock Supply is the one who has it.


I did a search.  I'm thinking it might be helpful for a problem I'm having too


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## ksalvagno (May 25, 2011)

It isn't cheap but you don't have to put on a lot either. But worth it no matter what if it clears up the problem.


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## elevan (May 25, 2011)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> It isn't cheap but you don't have to put on a lot either. But worth it no matter what if it clears up the problem.


I see that's where you get the herbal immune support too

Now, why hadn't I found Light Livestock yet?    Looks like a great resource.


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## ksalvagno (May 25, 2011)

Probably because it is focused on camelids and because I belong to AOBA I get their emails (not to mention I have seen them at alpaca shows when I used to go).  

Also a good one is NuStock. I keep that on hand as well.


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## ThornyRidgeII (May 25, 2011)

I too am about to give up on the beautiful looking coats.. some of my crew are looking rough.. reddish tints, fish tails, etc.. I have done everything but copper bolus and guess it is time to break down and do it.. I use the sweetlix mineral maker loose minerals and have for years now.. I only have a herd of nigerians and a total of 14 goats and I go through a 25 lb bag per month.. not sure who scarfs the most but my goats have eaten this stuff like candy (especially my bucks) every night I put a large fresh drinking glass of mineral in the feeder!  so I know that they are getting good and a lot of mineral!  I recently switched grain brands.. found one and tried it that had the most zinc and copper in compared to 3 other brands that I had tried or was using.. I noticed a bit of change in coloring on couple goats.. red/orange buck was bleached out looking and now is bright and vivid orange/red.. I still have some with rough coats and fish tails though.. I  myself have questioned water.. I know unfortunately have to use city water (that is what is in my barn) and wonder about mineral content causing havoc with absorbtion and such.. I know there is flouride in my water.. not much and wonder about that causing problems with coats/skin due to conflicting with absorbtion of other things.. I know that flouride is found naturally and can be toxic in large doses but with the crappy hay, water, and general hideous coats/hair I am at a loss too..  I have always been nervous about bolusing.. my vet did it for me once and good lord it was a chore for him.. I will prob try the marshmallow trick and or the needless syringe trick.. who knows.. giving all a squirt of mineral max paste here and there also..so frustrating at times .. having goats!!


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## mossyStone (May 25, 2011)

I am just wondering out loud here, but i am concerened about GMO in our feed. Prehapes we are seeing the future, as our animals like humans can't digest this stuff...

It is in our Corn, Beets, Soybeans, and a whole bunch of other stuff~~~ AND soon Alfalfa..it just can't be good for humans and animals.


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## Our7Wonders (May 25, 2011)

My girls are on organic barely and oats - soaked overnight with a bit of ACV, so it shouldn't be an issue with GMO or poor absorption from the grain.  I add BOSS as well.  And just started sprouting them first.    

It could, however, be from blocked minerals/vitamins/protein from chemically laden hay.  I don't now how the hay was treated.  I was in a rush to buy hay at the end of the season so I'd have it when my girls arrived in December.  They were looking rough by January.  So it came on quick once they arrived here - has to be environmental or feed/water related due to the timing.  And they had the same grain at their dairy - only feed diference is hay.  They are on city water, but they were for half the year at the dairy too, and same city.

Have I mentioned I'm so looking forward to new hay when it's ready!


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## babsbag (May 25, 2011)

I live in No. CA and we pay a fortune for our hay, but I am so happy to have it after reading all these posts about bad hay and no hay. Some of our hay is grown locally, and some is shipped in from Oregon or So. CA but I can always find decent hay, at a minimum of 16.00 a bale it better be good.

My herd is only on about an acre so they don't get much browse unless I trim some trees for them so alfalfa is the mainstay for the does and wheat hay is for the boys. I add some BOSS, some beet pulp, some wet COB, alfalfa / timothy grass pellets and some dairy ration when I am milking them. They probably don't get more than a cup of the tasty treats every day or 2 when they are open. The buck gets some noble goat or All Stock in addition to his wheat hay. Yes, they cost me a fortune to feed, but they look good, and for that I am thankful.


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## Snowhunter (May 25, 2011)

Roll, thanks for starting this, and everyone else for participating... it has been VERY educational to read. For newbie goat folks, like myself, its priceless to be learning this "from the horses mouth" and folks currently experiencing this stuff.l  so, Thanks!!


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

Okee doke....I mentioned that Penny's losing more fur, and this is what I found her like this morning.  (Not in the stand, of course...  )









Here's what she looked like 3 wks ago, prekidding






It's always been my experience that when a goat is 'down' w/ something, their production will suffer.  10.75# of milk this morning, and here's her udder when full.  






So whatever her problem is, I'm pretty sure she's not 'sick'...

I shaved her down to 1/8" and scrubbed her down good w/ hibiclens, have a call in to the vet to get the ingredients I don't have for the 'witche's brew' (Thanks SO MUCH for that info, both to Elevan for looking it up and Ksalvagno for mentioning it.)

Here are close-ups of her skin...I've never seen ringworm on anything but a puppy's tail...but are these red splotches ringworm???











This pic shows where the hairloss started, on her topline, from what the vet and I suspected was chemical burn from Cyclence.....  The 'shoulder blade' area, I guess you could call it.  






She had blistery burnt-looking skin but I've been putting MTG on it for about 10 days now.  The blisters are gone, and it looks better, but no new hair growth yet.   

I just don't know what to think....the chemical burn explained the hair loss on her topline, but why is she going bald all over now??????

One last pic of Penny....Aside from the crappy coat, isn't she beautiful?
 






I LOVE this goat, she's just so darn funny and smart, productive and sweet.   I want her to look pretty again.   

I have more pics to post of other goats (nearly every one I own) so that you guys can see what I'm seeing  / compare it to what you're seeing in your goats....But I gotta do a few other things now.

Any input on what Penny's red splotches look like, or advice for what'd be good for her besides MTG would be appreciated.  Ya don't think the MTG woulda caused the hair loss, do ya???


ALSO...Nicki....I know you're a groomer....I sorta want to burn my clippers now after shaving Penny, but they're new, so I sorta don't wanna.  Anything I can clean / soak the blades in that won't ruin them?  (Anything else I usually dip in bleach, assuming that wouldn't be a good idea... )


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

I just got off the phone w/ THE BEST VET EVER, Dr. Justin Bricker at Pipe Creek Animal Hospital.  He's a peach! 

(He said he was going to check out this thread and I had better have said nice things about him....)  

Don't I always brag on him, guys?  Huh, don't I???  

eta:  ALL goats tested normal selenium / copper levels except Penny, who IS high....so...is she going bald due to copper toxicity??

I will post the actual facts / figures once my dh picks up the test results and Witch's Brew ingredients this afternoon....


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

So normally 72 people would have posted but noooo...I ask y'all to help me out here and *crickets chirp*


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## RainySunday (May 26, 2011)

Well, I have absolutely zero suggestions...But I hope you get it figured out.  Poor thing, that can't possibly feel good, and I am sure you are driving yourself nuts over it too!


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## redtailgal (May 26, 2011)

...........


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

I've also been brushing the crap out of her too, trying to get the loose skin / dead hair out.  Maybe it's irritated from that?

NOTHER thing....That makes 2 tests, 1.5 yrs apart, where Penny's had high copper levels.  Should I keep her from getting ANY mineral for a while, ya think?  
And just why the heck is she red if she's not deficient?  Arrrrgh....


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 26, 2011)

Sorry Roll!  My day job had me unfortunately occupied today.   Yes, you need a blade wash/disinfectant.  You will most likely have to order it, though you might be able to snag some at work if you're lucky.  I use an Andis wash.  If it were me I'd keep those blades under wraps until you've thoroughly disinfected them.  And be sure to oil them really well after they're cleaned.

I'm dying to find out the blood test results!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 26, 2011)

It would be awfully strange for Penny to have had hair loss from the Cylence, then shorter after more generalized hair loss from a totally different issue... What are the odds that the two would be totally unrelated?  Pretty slim I'd think considering the fact that it's not that common for goats to just go bald.  Very curious indeed!


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## elevan (May 26, 2011)

Ok, I'm gonna throw another possibility into the mix for you   



> Vitamin deficiency
> 
> There are two vitamins that play a key role in a healthy crop of hair. When there is a Vitamin A deficiency, an excessive production of a protein called keratin takes place, which makes the skin rough and dry, and in extreme cases, hyperkeratosis *can lead to hair loss*, as keratin blocks hair follicles, stunting hair growth. Vitamin A deficiency can be easily overcome by including those food items that contain this vitamin in diet. However, excessive intake of Vitamin A can be toxic. Another vitamin, earlier known as Vitamin H, Biotin also helps in hair growth. When Biotin is bound by avidine - a sugar-protein-containing molecule present in the raw egg white, then the body cannot absorb this vitamin. Biotin is essential as it metabolises the sugar content into a usable chemical fuel. A deficiency of this vitamin can lead to hair loss. Biotin is found in milk [cow's milk and goat's milk], chicken eggs, cabbage, cucumber, cauliflower, onions, raspberries, strawberries, almonds, walnuts, oats. Carrots, tomatoes, romaine lettuce and chard however, are the richest source of this vitamin


Also have you tried giving her something for allergies?  In case that is the result of the extreme hair loss?

You've mentioned Penny being High Copper...where does she stand as far as selenium?


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## helmstead (May 26, 2011)

:/  That is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.

Did you have her zinc levels checked?  And, yes, I'd somehow get the loose minerals away from her and just offer loose salt for awhile.

If you didn't have her zinc levels checked, I would start bolusing her with zinc tablets ASAP.  High Ca, low Zinc can cause widespread hair loss...and interestingly zinc and copper inhibit each other - so if her copper is chronically high...welllll....

I agree the initial alopecia was related to the CyLence (altho I've NEVER had one react like that to it!)...but the rest of that hairloss I don't feel is related.

And, no, that's not ringworm.


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## ksalvagno (May 26, 2011)

I would probably be pulling out the NuStock and using it on her. No idea what the problem is but if MTG isn't doing enough then I would probably move on to witch's brew or NuStock if she were here.

Hopefully you can figure it out.


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## ThornyRidgeII (May 26, 2011)

I would pull the MTG also.. I tried that on a buck one time and it seemed to make his condition worse.. so wondering if you are slathering her up with the MTG.. maybe it could be some of the culprit.. cause when I used it .. well I saw no hair regrowth and seemed like hair thinned!  I supplemented with zinc picolinate once and had some improvement with one of my bucks a few years back.. used the capsules from health food store (raisin rack) and dropped a couple in his grain rations every other day for a while and his coat improved.. no chance of allergy?  unlikely due to what seems like a sudden onset.. blowing coat literally after kidding.- major hormonal issue??. hmmm I bought the Cylence to get away from chemical burns.. I was previously using Ultra Boss and dripping some down top lines and several goats would end up with bald racing stripes.. have not used my cylence yet so curious to see what will happen.. I have a couple that seemed extra licey this winter and they developed thinned hair in spots- not as extensive. curious to see what becomes of this..


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)




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## Goatmasta (May 26, 2011)

mites


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

If there's a mite left alive on that goat after 3 rounds of ivermectin (injected and oral) and a dose of cyclence....it's a mite I can't kill.


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## greenfamilyfarms (May 26, 2011)

From what I can find, ringworm makes the hair break off at the base of the shaft. 

The red spots almost looks like mange like dogs get.

You don't think it could be scrapie, do you?


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

OK, so technically this thread's probably about done but...I took all these darn pics so I'm going to post them.

Pardon any mud / dirty goats...I think we've had only 5 days w/ no rain in the last month.

Shawnee (pic taken last week), she was bought in April so didn't get the bad hay and looks great....she's due in July.






Levi (been here since she was 6 wks, she's 4 now, pic taken last week) Obviously a fattie who's looking good.






Jazmine, bought in January w/ Patch...(pic taken last month)






Another doe in good condition / no issues...but - She and Levi have lived together in a different barn (the one where the kids are) w/ the 'better' hay.  The 'bad' hay only was given to the goats in the "big" barn.

Now here's Patch...tested 'high normal' copper, 'normal' selenium.  

The day she got here...see what I meant about her nasty winter coat?






This pic was taken about 3 weeks ago, after a couple days of very thorough brushing, trying to get all the fuzz out so I *could* get a decent pic of her for our website.






Patch taken today.  She's been regrowing her coat for about a week.  
Before brushing






See what I mean about all the thick, nasty dead skin flaking off...?  Her bumps are all but gone, though.

Here's a shot after I brushed the crusties off.  






Dazzle - 






Tested 'normal' for both copper and selenium...this is what her back is doing, dry flaky skin.  






Foxy - did test 'low normal' for copper, normal for selenium.  I will probably give her a bolus tomorrow, see if it helps her coat any.






Derri...the one I thought looked 'the best' as far as her how her coat feels / condition...tested the LOWEST of the group for copper, normal for selenium.  I will probably bolus her, too.






That's it for the tested goats, but here are most of the rest of our herd, except the kids and the Togg buck who kept hiding behind Chaos.

The boys - Saturday - 1 yr old






Bullitt - 4.5 mos old - I love his little fluffy butt fur....






Chaos - 4 yrs old, red in the rump still after a calf bolus...






Creampuff, 9 yrs old, our 'old lady'.  Holding her condition pretty good, for an old broad.






I'm always telling you guys that when Puffy is mad, her ears stick out...she was annoyed b/c I made her go out in the sprinkling rain today...this is what she does:






Nissan, 5 yr old Kiko doe....holding her own, as well.






These two are 1.5 yr old 1st fresheners this year, Peyton (who is hard to tell anything about since she's 72 different colors...)






And Reggie






And finally...the Toggenheifers...

Itty Bitty, 5 yrs old






And her daughter, Missie (Itty Bitty chewed her ear and tail tips off when she was cleaning her off as a newborn...)






So that's all of 'em but the young kids and the Togg buck.


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

OK, so it's not ringworm, most likely.

I just googled, and I don't think it would be scrapie, she doesn't have the other signs and is producing milk like mad.  The vet never mentioned it so I don't think he thought it was an issue.

I just happen to have Zinc (I take it when I feel a cold coming on) so she's getting 3 tablets tomorrow...they're currently dissolving.  I'll give her 1 a day after that and see what happens.  

I have made the "Witches Brew" (at a cost of 30$ for a quart, vs. the 99$ they charge) and used it on one side of Penny.  I want to see if that helps at all or if she's just 'getting better' on her own / w/ the zinc.  

If that side seems to be improving more rapidly than the other, then I'll spray her all over w/ it.

Both Penny and Patch were given boat loads of Red Cell over the winter so that, plus the boluses, probably contributed to their levels (they are the 2 highest, even though Patch isn't 'over the limit' like Penny is.

Sooo....maybe Penny's issue is chemical burn PLUS selenium / copper overload....
OH, and the vet DID say today, "Maybe her problem is hormonal", between the oxytocin / lutalyse she was given after her kidding/ uterine issue....?

Patch....maybe overzealous grooming x mites x coat blowing?


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## poorboys (May 26, 2011)

SOUNDS LIKE YOUR GOING CRAZY LIKE ME  YOU THINK ONCE YOUR THRU KIDDING SEASON EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE OKAY AND THEN ALL H... BREAKS LOOSE. AND ALL THIS RAIN DOSEN'T HELP ANY OF US, PLUS THE HAY GUYS!!!! SORRY ROLL, HOPE SHE GETS BETTER.


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## Goatmasta (May 26, 2011)

cyclence does not kill mites.  How far apart were the 3 rounds of ivermectin?  To rid your herd of mites the entire herd has to be treated 3 times 12 days between treatments.  The dry flaky skin can be mites.


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## Roll farms (May 26, 2011)

Goatmasta, I appreciate your input.  I agree / have posted some of the flaky skin stuff *could* be mites.  Patch def. had at least scaly leg mites, and maybe body mites.

Penny was given ivo orally the day she kidded.  Injected 2 days post kidding, on a Friday.  Injected again this past weekend (14 days later) and will be getting another shot a week from Saturday (another 14 days).  

Dazzle's had ivo the same times / doses as Penny, and Patch started her doses 3 wks earlier and has had 3 rounds.  Still trying to decide if she needs a 4th.  

(I actually wondered if the mites left Patch and ran over next door to Penny's pen....)

I've dusted the rest of the goats w/ 7 dust, dusted the pens after cleaning them, and have dusted 1x a week 2 times.  None of the other girls seem to have mites...if they do show signs, I fully intend to give them ivo, too.  When I shaved the Toggs last week, not a one of them (buck in another pen or the 2 does in w/ Dazzle / general population) had any flakes, dry skin, or bare patches (except where I slipped w/ the trimmers.)

We've had mites before...but never in 15+ years have I seen EVERY goat have them at the same time.  I can't imagine the horror of that...lol.

BUT...I started this thread, and wanted the bloodwork ran, because mites alone aren't that girls problem.  (Mites don't cause the butt hair to turn red, or weak-legged kids, which is another problem we've had w/ our last 3 kiddings).

I needed to know if she was under or over on copper / selenium so I'd know if I needed to do more.  This thread is *mainly* about copper / selenium issues a lot of us are having...and how much it has to do w/ our hay / feed / etc.  

So yes, mites may be part of this...but I don't want it to distract from the thread's purpose, which was to share our experience dealing w/ what *looked* like classic copper deficiency issues (rough coats, red butts, etc.) and selenium deficiency issues (weak-legged kids, hair loss), but turned out to be (in Penny's case, at least) too much copper and selenium.  
I tried too hard to 'fix' what wasn't broken to begin with.

Guess I wanted to say, "Hey...don't go all nutso w/ the BoSe, Red Cell, and Boluses because you *might* just screw things up worse..."


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## jodief100 (May 27, 2011)

Just throwing things at the wall to see what sticks here.....

My dog had a similar looking issue several years ago.  We took him to a doggie internist thinking it was Cushings Disease.  There was a doggie dermatologist at the same office who took one look and said, nope- skin infection.  

Two weeks of antibiotics and it cleared up.  

Good luck, I hope you track it down.  They are all nice looking, except the coats.


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## greenfamilyfarms (May 27, 2011)

Don't feel bad... this person looks like they are having the same issue.

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=507358&p=7


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## Roll farms (May 27, 2011)

Ugh....

Penny's pretty much stopped eating her grain or drinking much water.  She is still eating hay w/ her normal gusto, though...
No fever, doesn't act like she's in pain, and her poop's fine.  She only produced 6.5# of milk in the last 24 hrs...so down about 4#.

She's a smart girl who can pout for days over an injustice...she still runs from my DH and it's been over a year since he gave her a shot and made her mad....so I'm not overly worried, but I am concerned.

I know DMSO puts a funky taste in our mouths if we get it on our skin, wondering if it gave her a funky taste and that's why she's not touching her grain (even on the stand) or drinking much water.

It also got pretty cool last night, the 'shock' of being hairless may be part of it. 

I didn't spray any Witches Brew on her tonight.


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## currycomb (May 27, 2011)

not to add worry roll, but hubby had a goat necropsied several years ago (before we met), they told him the goat was high in copper levels, and the brain was "mushy". hope nothing like that happens to your goats


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 28, 2011)

currycomb said:
			
		

> not to add worry roll, but hubby had a goat necropsied several years ago (before we met), they told him the goat was high in copper levels, and the brain was "mushy". hope nothing like that happens to your goats


Omg!


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## aggieterpkatie (May 28, 2011)

That's very strange about the hair loss.  Do you think she may have had a fever at some point after kidding maybe?  I know in sheep fevers cause wool breakage. My ewe must have had a fever at some point after she lambed (rough lambing, prolapse, stitches, etc) and the wool around her neck and face started peeling back.  

Definitely not ringworm, I agree.   I'm not sure about the copper bolusing thing. I bolused my doe June this winter for hte first time, and her hair coat got all rough and curly like the one doe of yours has.  I finally clipped her so I didn't have to look at it anymore.


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## poorboys (May 30, 2011)

HAS HER HAIR STARTED TO GROW YET????


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## Ariel301 (May 30, 2011)

That is super weird. I could see it being a hormonal thing. 

I've never seen ringworm in goats, (but they do get it) but in cats, it does cause hair loss and crusty patches. A neat way to test for it is to put them under a black light. Ringworm will glow in the dark, it's a bright green/blue. I'm not certain if other fungal infections would do the same or not.


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## Roll farms (May 30, 2011)

I can't really tell if her hair has grown any or not.  

She's back to eating normal, milk production's back up, and she's acting 'normal'.  (She quit eating  / production went down some after I shaved her / started using the Witches Brew.)

I plan to take a pic this week and compare the pics to see if I can tell any difference.  Looking at her 10 times a day, I'm not sure I'd notice a difference.


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## greenfamilyfarms (May 31, 2011)

Yeah, I was about to suggest to take a picture every week to see how she's progressing. Sometimes it is really hard to tell a difference unless you have pictures to compare.


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## SuburbanFarmChic (May 31, 2011)

Just to chime in. I bought a herd of 7 mini nubian field goats recently and one of the does started to loose like all her hair about a week after giving birth.  Otherwise FINE.   Food intake, temp, eye color, normal. Just going bald.  Her baby is now about 6 weeks old and I'm starting to see new hair coming in.  I did supplement with copper and Bose about 10 days ago.  Never got a positive mite test but we treated for that as well with ivermectin.


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2011)

Update on Penny...Here's how she looked 2 wks ago.












Here she is today.











Her back is still thin where the chemical burn was, but there *is* improvement, I think....?






The round bare spots on her upper ribs on ea. side are from where I injected her w/ calcium over the barrel after she kidded in an effort to help her pass the placenta, at least that's the only thing we can think of to explain them.  

I *love* her sweet face!

I've used Witch's Brew on her every other day, (Thanks for the suggestion, KSal) and been giving her zinc daily (Thanks, Kate).

Not sure what it is helping, but she looks better and that's what matters....and she's still giving 12# a day, to boot.






And Patch continues to look better every day, too.


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## Matthew3590 (Jun 11, 2011)

Don't accuse cause I am a guy  but first thing I noticed were her HUGE utters.  What breed is she?


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## Roll farms (Jun 11, 2011)

I used to show, but we couldn't stand the politics of it all.  We used to show chickens and goats.  
I sell a lot of goats to people who show, and they don't embarrass us, at least. 
Penny's udder's capacious / productive and I love her medial, but her teat placement and the shape of her udder aren't my favorite.  A lot of that has to do w/ what she is (Ob)...they've come a long way with Oberhasli udders, though.


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## ksalvagno (Jun 11, 2011)

Penny looks great. I'm sure the combination is working for you.

The girls that I used witch's brew on for staph is completely healed up and so far not coming back. The two girls that I used Hibiclens on ended up getting it again so they are now getting the witches brew and it is clearing up fast.


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## greenfamilyfarms (Jun 17, 2011)

They are looking better!!!!

Here is something else I ran across that has rave reviews for skin issues: Nu-Stock.
http://www.nustock.com/merchant.ihtml?cid=4&step=2


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## redtailgal (Jun 17, 2011)

.


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## Ariel301 (Jun 20, 2011)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> Rolls,
> 
> I hate that your pretty goats are having such an issue.  Its gotta be frustrating.
> 
> ...


That sounds awfully like ringworm to me-the whole herd was losing hair in patches, flaking, and there were some oozing sores...very typical of ringworm. I can't see the whole herd being allergic to ivermectin. :/


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## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 25, 2011)

It would also depend on how, and I hate to say it, but how inbred the herd was.  

  I love draxxin as an antibiotic but there is a genetic predisposition to getting an injection site abscess from it.  I'm currently trying to breed away from that tendency but I have confirmed it in several related vs unrelated goats and ones from a certain line are prone to getting injection site issues.


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## RPC (Jul 17, 2011)

Just wondering how Penny is doing? I hope her hair has come back nicely and she is all back to being beautiful.


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## Roll farms (Jul 17, 2011)

Penny looks good.  I tried to get her pic earlier this week, and when I stepped away from the milk stand to snap it, she hopped off and ran outside.
Then commenced a hot, sweaty goat chase and just when I was ready to give up, she came up to me like, "Hey, put me back in the barn before Puffy eats all my hay."
I really didn't feel inclined after that to brag on Penny much.  

eta....funny, she has the barest tail tip ever, you'd *swear* she was copper deficient, BUT too much copper can mimic signs of too little (which is how she kept getting extra to begin with).

GOATS...ugh.


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## Roll farms (Sep 3, 2011)

So...if you didn't know any better, and looked at Penny......







You'd swear, b/c of the lighter reddish area and fish tail, that she was low on copper.  That's how I got into this mess to begin with....

(To spare you from reading the whole thing, if you're new / missed it last time...when I saw these signs this spring, I bolused her...then she went bald.  Had her levels tested and they were wayyyy high.)

She def. looks better now than she did.

Patch however...is going bald...again.  The vet is stumped.  Her copper and selenium levels were fine and dandy.  She's in good condition.  No creepy crawlies....She just likes going bald...?


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## ksalvagno (Sep 3, 2011)

Knowing what Penny looked like before, she looks great! I'm using Rex Brand Wheat Germ Oil on my goats. I was having problem with rough coats. Didn't have hair loss but skin was very flaky and coats were very rough. After 4 weeks I saw improvement. After 6 weeks, everyone was looking great. Everyone is still looking great. I have backed off a bit from giving them the wheat germ oil daily but they are definitely doing better.


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## MissyP (Jul 27, 2012)

My vet told me that zinc deficiency can also cause skin problems such as fish tail, hair loss and poor coat. You can find a zinc  supplement called Zin Pro at goat world.com

Getting blood tested for a mineral screening is definitely to way to go, though copper toxicity will not show up as copper is stored in the liver.


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## BlondeSquirrel04 (Jul 27, 2012)

In reference to high levels of copper, aside from loose minerals, what else contains copper?

One of my 10 goats has a crappy coat. Went from a furball over the winter to looking like a dog with mange now. She's my best milker at around 10# a day, and aside from the rough/thin coat, she's fine. I just had her on a 5 day course of Pen G to prevent infection in a lacerated udder. Cut went right through into the milk! Thankfully, she healed beautifully with no infection. Don't think whatever is causing it is infection related.

I wormed her w/ Ivomec a week ago, and gave some BoSe about 3 days ago. I was going to give some copper, but now I'm afraid because of some people's results are coming back too high.


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## ksj0225 (Jul 27, 2012)

This is an old post! Great for reference though.


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