# First birth, first assist, first loss



## ksalvagno (Jan 17, 2011)

One of my girls gave birth today. It was Buttin' Heads Surprise Surprise. She is a very small girl but seemed to be doing well with her pregnancy. I went out this morning and she was screaming. There were legs coming out and it turned out to be breech. I don't know if the kid was already stillborn or I just didn't get there soon enough but the kid was dead. Of course it was a doe. It appears that she only had the one. I'm now waiting for her to pass her placenta and I'm going to milk her out so I can get some colostrum to save.

Unfortunately, because of trains and blowing their horns, I can't have a baby monitor. But who knows if it would have helped anyway. I've had losses with alpacas but no matter what, it is still kind of a bummer. The doe was solid black with a square white patch on her one hip.


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## helmstead (Jan 17, 2011)

Oh, Karen, what a shame...so sorry!


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## glenolam (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm sorry for the loss.   I hope everything gets better for you!


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## Calliopia (Jan 17, 2011)

I am SO sorry for your loss.  It doesn't matter what age or how they go it's never easy.


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## Ariel72 (Jan 17, 2011)

Karen, I'm so sorry to hear about losing your little doeling.  Is the poor doe going to be ok?  It must be heartbreaking.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, I guess I'm getting my answer about being stillborn. Surprise passed another fetus but this one was about half the size of the first one and clearly not full term. There has also been at least an hour in between these kids. Is there something that I should do or let nature take its course? I do have Oxytocin. I haven't milked her yet because the second kid is still hanging out of her and I thought that the weight of the kid would be good to hopefully keep her pushing. Is there anything more I should do? After all the alpaca births I have done, I'm still feeling at a loss as to what I can do for Surprise.


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## helmstead (Jan 17, 2011)

I would go ahead with the oxytocin...and save some afterbirth or a fetus for testing.  That should produce the placenta in about 30 minutes.  If you have CMPK, that will also help.

If the first kid looked full term, this one might have just died earlier as a result of trauma or placental attachment...


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## ksalvagno (Jan 17, 2011)

Is it 1cc per 100lbs for goats?

I have Red Cell and I have Calcium Drench (goats prefer brand).


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## ohiofarmgirl (Jan 17, 2011)

oh, K... i'm so sorry. it is a bummer... especially at the start of the season.

hopefully the 2nd smaller one answered your question of 'what happened'....

onward and upward, as you know i say

sending hugs!


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## helmstead (Jan 17, 2011)

I usually just give 1 cc, regardless of the doe's actual weight.


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## helmstead (Jan 17, 2011)

That calcium drench is NASTY, so be firm in dosing it...and be careful not to let her aspirate.


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## LilyD (Jan 17, 2011)

So sorry that things didn't turn out better it's hard to lose babies 

Lily


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## Javamama (Jan 17, 2011)

So sorry for the bad start Karen  Praying the next one is better.


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## DonnaBelle (Jan 17, 2011)

Karen, I'm so sorry to hear of your loss.  You are in my thoughts.

DonnaBelle


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## theawesomefowl (Jan 17, 2011)

I am so sorry.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm really sorry to hear that.  I hope the dam bounces back without issue for you.


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## BetterHensandGardens (Jan 17, 2011)

Oh, I'm so sorry


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## jason_mazzy (Jan 17, 2011)

Sorry for your loss


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## elevan (Jan 17, 2011)




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## Roll farms (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm so sorry.  

I agree w/ Kate...that Calcium drench stuff must be rank, they'll spit it all over me if given half a chance.

I dose the Oxy at 1cc per 100# for my 'big girls'.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I'm still waiting for her to pass her placenta. I have give her 2 shots of Oxytocin so far. I also put molasses in her water and put her buddy in with her in the kidding stall. She is alert and active. I also did give her that calcium drench. I guess I will have to buy that cmpk. I was given the calcium drench so I figured I would just hang onto it and use it. But Surprise definitely didn't like it.


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## Theykeepmebusy (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm sorry.


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## chandasue (Jan 17, 2011)

Such a bummer. Hope Surprise pulls through it all ok...


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## PattySh (Jan 17, 2011)

Very sorry to hear about your loss. That's heartbreaking. Sounds like they probably died in utero. I hope she passes her placenta ok. Milking out a little colostrum will work like oxy and bring about uterine contractions too.


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## warthog (Jan 17, 2011)

So sorry for your loss, hope Suprise is doing OK now, keep us all posted.


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## rebelINny (Jan 17, 2011)

So sorry about your loss!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks. Surprise still hasn't passed her placenta. She had a temp of 104.2. So she got Banamine and Exceed. Temp went down to 102.2. She had a period of time where she wasn't eating so I decided to see if she was eating now. I gave her a bowl of alfalfa pellets and she was happily eating when I left. Her poor back end is very swollen and she is still breathing hard but otherwise seems to be doing well. I'll check her one more time tonight and then go to bed. I'm hoping she will pass that placenta by morning. I did try to gently pull on it but it wasn't budging.

I did milk her. Her udder is almost non-existent and her teats were the size of teats on a dry doe. I got one ounce of colostrum out of her. That was it. Her udder hasn't gotten any bigger since this afternoon (when I milked her) so I'm not going to bother trying to milk her anymore.


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## crazyland (Jan 17, 2011)

I am so sorry. 

Is everyone having a hard day today? Sometime in the water or what? UGH! Can't stand it. Need some good news and happy stories.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm glad to hear she's eating and hope she's able to pass the placenta today.  You mentioned she did already pass an underdeveloped twin- I had a similar situation recently.  Our oldest doe kidded a healthy kid put didn't completely pass her placenta.  Most of it was out, but there was still about a 6" piece that hanging that wouldn't detach.  It turned out she still had a small, underdeveloped twin and once she passed that everything was out and we got back to normal but it did take a few days.  

Our vet did suggest that with goats it's not that big of a deal if pieces of the placenta are retained as long as you do a round of antibiotics.  Maybe you could try a uterine flush later?  Might not help much but it won't hurt either.

It's really a bummer of a situation.  I hope she feels better soon!


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## helmstead (Jan 18, 2011)

She did a flush yesterday...hopefully today the rest comes out.


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## ksalvagno (Jan 18, 2011)

Yes, I should have mentioned that I flushed her with sterile saline solution with a little bit of betadine (enough to look like weak tea). For a 500 ml bottle about 2cc works. I did talk to the vet last night and he said I was doing everything he would have suggested doing. I'm going to be doing the alpaca protocol that we do with flushing which is doing it for 3 days in a row. I think I will add Biomycin to the last flush to get antibiotics in her uterus as well as the antibiotics that she is getting shots of.

She did pass some placenta this morning. I'm not sure if it is all of the placenta but I'm happy she has past some. She is doing well and normal temp. 

My plan is also to do Banamine again today and maybe tomorrow if she is still swollen and will continue the Exceed for a full course of antibiotics.


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## helmstead (Jan 18, 2011)

Prep. H works well for external swelling, too.


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## mossyStone (Jan 18, 2011)

I am so sorry
Glad to her her temp is down, your doing a great job!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 18, 2011)

Well, it looks like there may be a third fetus in there. I tried to do a flush and I just couldn't get the liquid to flow and it was hard to get the tube in. Unfortunately, I can only get 2 fingers in there but I swear I felt a leg. Our vet has a haul in day on Tuesdays where from 3pm to 6pm they waive the office visit fee. So I will be taking her into the vet this afternoon. She is actively pushing right now so I'm hoping that she will push the fetus out on her own but at this point I want to get an xray and make sure of what is and isn't in her uterus. So hopefully this will still have a good outcome.


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## poorboys (Jan 18, 2011)

hope all goes well, that's good with the vet, wish I had that kinda service. sorry for your loss.


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## glenolam (Jan 18, 2011)




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## helmstead (Jan 18, 2011)




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## jason_mazzy (Jan 18, 2011)

praying for u


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 18, 2011)

Our doe didn't pass the underdeveloped twin until 3 days after her kidding and she ended up being ok.  We had no idea it was in there.  I hope everything works out!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 18, 2011)

Well got back from the vet. He did an ultrasound on her. She definitely has something more in there. If it is a fetus, it is underdeveloped. I believe Kate was trying to tell me this but I also found out that a goat uterus can handle a lot more than an alpaca uterus. I was getting a bit panicky when she wasn't expelling the stuff. If an alpaca hadn't expelled everything by now, we would be in crisis mode because their uterus just can't handle stuff left in it.

Surprise's cervix was pretty well closed down already. So the vet had me give her a shot of Estrumate. So one shot today and one in 2 weeks if I feel that she hasn't expelled everything. The vet also wants me to keep her on the Exceed. The vet was very pleased with how well and alert she was looking. 

I talked to him about Oxytocin and Estrumate. He said the Oxytocin will not help keep the cervix open and the contractions from the Oxytocin are not very strong. The Estrumate will open up the cervix and give them strong contractions to help expel what is in the uterus.

So now I can take a deep breath and relax. I was really thinking of extreme situations with Surprise needing a C-Section or something or her dying from this. Now I understand better.


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## helmstead (Jan 18, 2011)

To quote myself, , _"I did pay for the office visit, only to be told to put the doe on systemic antibiotics and do another flush...and have a glass of wine LOL_."  I don't drink, but it was tempting!  I come from the horse world, where a retained placenta for more than a day equals almost certain founder, peritonitis...and I was WIGGING OUT.  And it was only the tiniest piece of missing placenta...I'd noticed a bit missing when I examined the thing she had passed after a major, in the doe up to my shoulder dystocia...

It will be ok!

My vet was telling me stories, in the same visit, of how they handle this in most large dairy cattle operations.  Basically, a holding chute and a water hose...


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## ksalvagno (Jan 18, 2011)

Yea, my vet said you could throw a handful of dirt in a cow and there not be a problem. I guess it will take some time for me to move out of "alpaca mode" with birthing and have a new mode for the goats.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jan 18, 2011)

When that thing happened to me with the twin I was convinced my doe's uterus was about to fly out the back of her.  Because she didn't push it out until 3 days after she had kidded her cervix had closed and it caused a vaginal prolapse.  To make a long story short I consulted with my goat vet and the vet I work for and the best we could do at that moment was a dose of xylazine to give her if she started expelling her uterus overnight before I could get her in to the vet the next morning for sutures.  Well, it just so happens this was the night in December that Georgia got hit with a major ice storm and by the time I get halfway home from the clinic with the xylazine (which will either prevent expulsion or kill my goat, they can't really say which) the roads became impassable.  I spent 3 hours in my car waiting for the DOT convinced my doe would be dead by the time I got home!  I was freaking out.  But once she passed the fetus she was fine- no more prolapse.  And she quickly got back to normal despite the ordeal!


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## WGF (Jan 18, 2011)

Im so sorry for your loss.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 19, 2011)

I am soooo sorry Karen.    What an ordeal for her!! Poor girl   glad to hear she's handling it well!!  Thankfully shes good and strong...and has a great midwife!!  I hope it goes well for her!


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## ksalvagno (Jan 20, 2011)

Surprise seems to be doing fine. So far I have seen nothing but normal cleanup stuff. I may just take her in to the vet again in 2 weeks and have another ultrasound done. Then I can make a clear decision if the second Estrumate shot is needed or not. 

I have put her and her buddy back in with the other girls. I had them in a kidding stall so I could really monitor what was coming out of her. While she is eating, she is not eating a lot. I know she is unhappy in the kidding stall so I figured there is no sense in keeping her in there. I would rather she be happier and eating normally. Lots of head butting going on but it almost seemed like it was "happy to see you" head butting. Who knows.


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## Emmetts Dairy (Jan 20, 2011)

Awwww...Im sure they were happy to see them!!  I would of put her back out as well.  They, like us..are healthier when happy.  It makes a differance sometimes.

Thinking of her. And you..hope everything turns out good for you guys!!


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## warthog (Jan 20, 2011)

Glad to hear everything is going OK.  I think it was a good idea to put her back with the rest.  I know when I have separated mine they are always happier when back with the herd.


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