# Im at a loss, please help.



## kerrihornenc (Jul 1, 2011)

I have 9 goats.  We have an acre that they rotate through on grazing.  We feed sweetlix loose minerals, a purina natural goat chow, horse quality alfalfa hay, and lots of love and goat treats.  In april, one of my favorite does kidded a dead baby and simultaneously seemed weak.  She seemed to be stumbling, but then was fine, eating and drinking totally normally, with only slightly loose stools.  I did a fecal on her and saw a very low number of hookworms.  I dewormed her with Valbazen.  No improvement.  Large animal vet had me rotate through ivermectin dewormer (sq and orally) for 4 weeks, then give Quest.  I did this (on her and another "weak" doe) and she lived until last week.  Suddenly dead.  Up and moving, normal stools, eating and drinking normally.  Now, the 2nd doe is down, unable to stand, wobbly and weak, yet eating and drinking normally.  Her membranes are white.  I dosed her again with quest last week when the other doe died.  Im sure Im screwing this all up, but I have no idea what to do and neither does the Large animal vet.    Im scared all my goats are going to die.  One of my yearling does looks pale to me today and seems to have some edema on the jaw.  Help!  I cant watch them all die!!!


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## ksalvagno (Jul 1, 2011)

Have they checked for coccidia and barberpole? Does the vet do a fecal float or use a centrifuge when doing fecal tests? Does the weakness start at the back end?


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## Roll farms (Jul 1, 2011)

Liver fluke?  
Or, like KSal asked, any weakness in the back end?  That could be meningeal worm, esp. if you're in a wet / snail-infested area....
Liver flukes can cause anemia / kill...Meningeal will cause paralysis and kill.
A truly accurate fecal is needed, checking for all parasites....protozoa and worms.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 1, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Liver fluke?
> Or, like KSal asked, any weakness in the back end?  That could be meningeal worm, esp. if you're in a wet / snail-infested area....
> Liver flukes can cause anemia / kill...Meningeal will cause paralysis and kill.
> A truly accurate fecal is needed, checking for all parasites....protozoa and worms.


Meningeal would be my guess too...  And at what dosage was the vet having you dose the ivermec?  I would suspect it was too low of a dosage..


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 1, 2011)

I am sorry for your loss and what you are now experiencing with your second doe.

None of the vets in our county or the surrounding counties have experience with goats and sheep with the exception of a new one that I understand does have the necessary experience.  

If you have a veterinary school at a university in your state, or a neighboring state, I would bring your doe to them for help.  Should you also loose her, bring her to the university for a necropsy.

To me, it sounds like you may have a couple of things going on with your girls.  

Please keep us updated.


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## terrilhb (Jul 1, 2011)

i don't know the answer but I am so sorry for your loss. Sending hugs.


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## elevan (Jul 1, 2011)

I would have the fecal redone (fully) as Roll Farms suggested.  I would also dose her with Red Cell 6ml / 20-30# every 6-8 hours for 24-48 hours to help combat the anemia while you find out what you're dealing with and get started fighting it.


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## Pearce Pastures (Jul 1, 2011)

So sorry for you and wish there was something i could offer other than my condolences.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 2, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I would have the fecal redone (fully) as Roll Farms suggested.  I would also dose her with Red Cell 6ml / 20-30# every 6-8 hours for 24-48 hours to help combat the anemia while you find out what you're dealing with and get started fighting it.


I have been really happy with the suggestions on here to use red cell and copper bolusing.  some of my wormy goats seem to be doing a better job fighting off worms. 


You stated they are yearling does.  Can you share more with us on the ages and breed of your goats, weights?/

can you give us the dosages you used when treating. 

I suspect #1 meningial worms,  #2 barber pole worms,  #3 coccidiosis.  If the fecal test is accurate and all they have is a few hook worms after and/or before the worming, then I am leaning towards the sneaky parasites, that don't show up in fecals.  Like the liver flukes and meningial..  

most certainly a parasite problem with the anemia.  

You said you did the iverectin and quest and then she lived until this week. What kind of time frame are we talking about, Just a week after you gave her the quest or 2 or 3 months later????


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## kerrihornenc (Jul 3, 2011)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

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First, this was going to my spam folder, so Ive missed all your responses.  Luckily, my brain was firing this morning and I thought to check it.  Sorry for the delay.  

2nd, the doe that passed was 3 and the doe that is sick now is 2.  I have a yearling doe that has slight edema under her chin that I think is starting the process.  I hit her with Ivermectin this morning and dusted her in case lice are back.  

For the doe that died, she was pregnant, so I was using Safeguard at 1ml/10lbs for 5 days.  I also did Ivermection orally at 1ml/75lbs and for the others, I also used Valbazen at 4mls/100lbs over 3 days.  The time frame was from April 15th til 6/21.  She was SEVERELY anemic (PCV 8% initially, but increased to 12%).  We found lice on her, too, so I dusted her, the bedding, and everyone else with 7dust.  The doe that is currently sick is definitely weak in the rear.  Definitely.  We made slings this morning and tried to exercise her and she is using the front but knuckling over in the rear.  Stools are normal consistency.  My vet said to give her a Vit B complex injection to try and give her a boost, and I gave her the quest (1ml/100lbs was the dose I was able to find) about 5 days ago.  She is eating and drinking still.  She is grazing in the grass when we put her out in the pasture.  Its insane and frustrating.  Im scared to death they are all going to die.  

Regarding the red cell, my large animal vet that I consulted said that with severe anemia, there isnt much point in the red cell since its utilizing iron, and iron is carried on the red blood cells.  Without red blood cells, the iron is useless.  Have you guys had severe anemia show results?   Today I noticed that she has a snotty nose on one side.  

I work in an ER vet hosp, Im a registered vet tech... except I work with small animals.  I apologize if this is a choppy delivery of answers but I just got home and havent had any sleep.  

Tell me what kind of fecal to do and I can do it.  I work at 6 tonight, so Im all ears beforehand   Thanks guys for all your condolences and advice.  Im really trying to do the best thing for them!  - Kerri


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## elevan (Jul 3, 2011)

kerrihornenc said:
			
		

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I dose Ivermectin at 1ml/25# orally...so your dose was way low on that imo.

I've had great success with Red Cell and severe anemia.  Which is why I recommend it to everyone whose goats are experiencing anemia of any severity.

Coccidia is still not out of the question with your goats.  When I take fecals in and have them check for coccidia it takes them an extra 15 minutes to do that test...I don't know what extra it entails, hopefully someone else can chime in with that.

Since you're "technically" doing your own fecals at your office, I would take a couple different samples...same goat, different poos.  You can get negative results on one and positive on another...I'm sure you already know that though.

When you say "slight edema under her chin" what are you saying exactly?  Starting to look like bottle jaw or just a lump?  Can you run a blood test to check the levels of selenium and copper?

I'm working on 4 hours of sleep...that's all I can think of for now...


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## ksalvagno (Jul 3, 2011)

Rear weakness can be a sign for Meningeal Worm. The worm travels through the spinal cord and into the brain and will eventually kill them. Prevention is Ivomec. Treatment is Safeguard (liquid) dosed at 1cc per 7 lbs for 5 days. Also give Ivomec by injection. Banamine is also helpful. The only way to prove meningeal worm is by spinal tap so most people don't actually have them tested to prove they had it. Necropsy will also show if they had meningeal or not.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jul 3, 2011)

We saved a severly anemic doe this spring. We feel she had what is called a flash kill from worming her, which resulted in her almost bleeding out from too many worms dying off too fast.  she was not weak in the back like you are distribing. I suspect you are dealing with meningeal worms.  But to answer your question about the red cell. We used it at the rate of 6cc per 30lb of goat daily for a week, But on day 3 we felt she was so bled out looking we started injecting her with injectable iron for pigs as well(ferrous), along with giving her the red cell. She was so severly bottle jawed that she could not eat for a couple days.  we did B complex 3x a day, 

We switched her to grain and alfalfa, all that she would eat, daily probiotics and When she was at her worse, High protein drenches, made with raw eggs, corn oil, corn syrup, and yogurt(not the light).  (8 to 10 ounces at a time).  Her bottle jaw went away after a week, only to return when we left her out on pasture a couple weeks later, so we kept up the iron shots weekly for the next few weeks, until we felt her color looked better. 


Protein is the key to red blood cell development, so providing lots of protein is important in their recovery. 

I would make sure you are checking for coccidiosis. 

I would consider treating aggresively for meningeal worms. 

I would consider trying to treat a couple for coccidios with sulfa-dimethoxine just to see if it helps at all and to rule it out, since that is one drug family you haven't used. 

If you loose another one, I would have the body checked out by a vet. 

Iwould talk to neighbors, sheep and goat farmers, find out what could be going on in your area. Although I would think the vet should now.


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## Griffin's Ark (Jul 4, 2011)

I am going to give you a note about Ivermectin directly out of the book "Sheep and Goat Medicine" edited by D.G Pugh, DVM, MS.  
        "Anecdotal reports suggest that this dosage may be clinically ineffective in sheep and goats and more that 300 micrograms per Kilogram may be needed for nematode parasite control."

The initial dosage is 200 micrograms per kilogram PO or SC.  Assuming the normal dose of injectable ivermectin for cattle is the base line, 1 ml per 110 lbs, this suggest to me that you need to add half again as much or more to be effective.  We use it a double strength when things get to out of hand to use organic methods.  Locally our vets are recommending transitioning to Cydectin to get heavy worm loads undercontrol and then go back to Ivermectin or Valbazen for as long as it is effective.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 4, 2011)

Griffin's Ark said:
			
		

> I am going to give you a note about Ivermectin directly out of the book "Sheep and Goat Medicine" edited by D.G Pugh, DVM, MS.
> "Anecdotal reports suggest that this dosage may be clinically ineffective in sheep and goats and more that 300 micrograms per Kilogram may be needed for nematode parasite control."
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> The initial dosage is 200 micrograms per kilogram PO or SC.  Assuming the normal dose of injectable ivermectin for cattle is the base line, 1 ml per 110 lbs, this suggest to me that you need to add half again as much or more to be effective.  We use it a double strength when things get to out of hand to use organic methods.  Locally our vets are recommending transitioning to Cydectin to get heavy worm loads undercontrol and then go back to Ivermectin or Valbazen for as long as it is effective.


If you look at the pour on it suggest 500 Mcg / Kg, Personally I am dosing closer to 800 Mcg/Kg and it is very effective.  As I have stated in other post the dosage for ALL ivermec (injectable or pour-on) should be 1cc/22lbs  If you dose @ that rate you will deliver between 500-800 Mcg/Kg.  Which is effective.
   I am of the school that will use a wormer (increasing dosage as needed) until it becomes ineffective.  At that point I will move on to a different wormer.


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## kerrihornenc (Jul 5, 2011)

well, doe #2 is hanging in there, still down in the rear but bright alert, eating/drinking.  doe #3 that had a slight amount of bottle jaw on Saturday got treated with Ivermectin (I doubled the dose, gave her 2mls/100lbs) and she was dead Monday morning.  No wasting away on that.   Im very over this, I can assure you.  Based on what I was reading, I too think its meningial worm.  If doe#2 dies, I will have her necropsied.  Starting panacur on everyone tonight, moving to Valbazen by the weekend, then Ill dose everyone with Ivermectin again.    Thats all Ive got.  Started the down doe on red cell yesterday, and from what Ive read should do EOD, right?   Thanks guys!  <3


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## helmstead (Jul 5, 2011)

I am SO sorry for your losses!!   Hopefully the last one will recover...


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm hoping for a good outcome for you on this doe


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 5, 2011)

I am So sorry for your losses.

I am curious about Ivermectin percentages and dosing.

We use Ivermectin 1% solution injectable (for cattle) orally according the instructions for cattle which is 1cc per 110 pounds.

Recently we bought Ivermectin Sheep Drench 0.08% Solution.  We have not used it yet, but the label says to use 3.0 mL (2.4 mg ivermectin) per 26 pounds of body weight.

In other words, for example, 1% ivermection solution = 1 mL ivermection in 100 mLs solution.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 5, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> I am So sorry for your losses.
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> I am curious about Ivermectin percentages and dosing.
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The sheep drench dosage of 3ml/26lbs delivers 200mcg/kg of body weight.  The injectable dosage of 1cc/110lbs delivers 200 mcg/kg of body weight.  The pour on dosage of 1cc/22lbs delivers 500mcg/kg of body weight.  
  Personally I dose around 800 mcg/kg of body weight.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 5, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

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Thanks for your post Goat, however, it is not possible to do calculations until you tell us what the solution percentage is on each of your product containers.

The Sheep Drench we bought is Durvet Sheep Drench 0.08%.  I am quoting from their bottle, so if they say 3.0 mL of their solution =s 2.4 mg ivermectin, I believe them.  

What brand are you quoting from on for the 0.08% solution?  

I cannot comment of your other information because I do not know the percentages.  Please give us the brand names and the percentages and what the products are used for.


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

I always look at the mg (or mcg) of medicine per ml / fl.oz or whatever equivalent that they give it...then break out my basic algebra and do the math.

RockDoveRanch - If you want to PM me the numbers on your bottle and what you want them to equate to I'd be more than happy to do the math for you


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## helmstead (Jul 5, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I always look at the mg (or mcg) of medicine per ml / fl.oz or whatever equivalent that they give it...then break out my basic algebra and do the math.


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## Goatmasta (Jul 5, 2011)

My info came off the product labels, pretty sure I remembered right.  Most drugs say how much of the actual drug is being delivered at the suggested dose.  Check your label usually the info is on the insert that has really small type and most people throw away.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 5, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> I always look at the mg (or mcg) of medicine per ml / fl.oz or whatever equivalent that they give it...then break out my basic algebra and do the math.
> 
> RockDoveRanch - If you want to PM me the numbers on your bottle and what you want them to equate to I'd be more than happy to do the math for you


Thanks for the offer Elevan, but I can do the calculations.  

What I am saying here is that if you are not purchasing products designed for goats and/or sheep, you need to know the % of ivermectin to sterile solution to calculate properly.  For example, I have one bottle that is 0.08% ivermectin solution and another that is 1% ivermectin solution, and yet another that is 2%.  Maybe I am wrong, but from what I have read, I am not sure if that is understood when suggesting doses on this thread. 

If someone is suggesting a dose it is important, in my own personal opinion, to know the percentages and what kind of animal the product is for before giving it to an animal the product was no meant for.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 5, 2011)

Goatmasta said:
			
		

> My info came off the product labels, pretty sure I remembered right.  Most drugs say how much of the actual drug is being delivered at the suggested dose.  Check your label usually the info is on the insert that has really small type and most people throw away.


Thanks Goat.  We are big label readers and label savers.  Sometimes it gets a little tricky when you are calculating for homing pigeons.  

What product brands are you using and are they designed for use in goats and/or sheep?

We have been very lucky in that we found a Purina dealer that sells a lot of products for sheep.  Finding products for goats is pretty easy around here.


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## elevan (Jul 5, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

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I think I get what you're saying...

To clarify:  Most of us just throw out the term IVOMEC (ivermectin) and don't say which % formula is at that dose...I'm guilty of that (I use 1% but just usually say Ivomec).  Same thing happens when we're talking about cocci and those meds...I've seen the % questioned multiple times and for some reason when it's questioned there it's not a problem.
Sounds like we can avoid the confusion by saying exactly what we're using...so in my case instead of just saying Ivomec, I'll make a concentrated effort to say Ivomec 1%.

I hope I had that right...and that's what you're meaning    Just correct me if I'm wrong.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 5, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

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Yep, that is what I mean.  

When I was out letting the dogs run I was trying to figure out whether I was doing a good job of explaining what I meant . . . or not.

The ivermectin we have been using is by Merial 1% and it is for cattle and swine.  I was thinking it is just for cattle, *sorry*.  We use the Merial 1% for cattle and swine to prevent heartworms in our dogs at 0.1cc per 10 pounds of doggie, *but please, do not do this without first checking with your vet or vet friend!*  And use the cow dosage for the sheep.  The swine dose is different that the dose for cows.  For swine it is 1 mL per 75 lb body weight.

The Sheep Drench by Durvet is just for sheep and is 0.08% solution, so the dosage is not the same as the Merial 1% for cows and swine.

This is the percentage usage chart that we go by.  Sorry, but we no longer have the site where we got it from.







In the mean time, my Boxer is laying at my side and I am watching him closely.  He was bitten hopefully by a copperhead and not a timber rattlesnake on the leg.  I knew something was wrong when we got on the 4-wheeler.  He looked up at me and was not interested in running along side us.  He had already been running wild with the other 3 dogs for an hour and a half by then.  The tell-tell black blister has just started to present and the swelling is spreading.  He also has something on his neck, but if it was a poisonous snake, it was a dry bite.  This is not his first poisonous snake bit.  All the rest have been on his face and they have not really bothered him even though they were wet bites.  Not sure why this bite is bothering him. 

So I may not be on until tomorrow or later if we have a vet emergency on hand.


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## helmstead (Jul 5, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> In the mean time, my Boxer is laying at my side and I am watching him closely.  He was bitten hopefully by a copperhead and not a timber rattlesnake on the leg.  I knew something was wrong when we got on the 4-wheeler.  He looked up at me and was not interested in running along side us.  He had already been running wild with the other 3 dogs for an hour and a half by then.  The tell-tell black blister has just started to present and the swelling is spreading.  He also has something on his neck, but if it was a poisonous snake, it was a dry bite.  This is not his first poisonous snake bit.  All the rest have been on his face and they have not really bothered him even though they were wet bites.  Not sure why this bite is bothering him.
> 
> So I may not be on until tomorrow or later if we have a vet emergency on hand.


yeeps


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 6, 2011)

I want to apologize for going off topic on this important thread.  I was worrying about my dog as I was typing.  He is much much better this morning and most of the swelling is gone.  He has had plenty of copperhead bites and this is the first time he has ever responded in that silent way that dogs do to hide pain.  He was down for about 7 hours.  Again, I am sorry.


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## freemotion (Jul 6, 2011)

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> I want to apologize for going off topic on this important thread.  I was worrying about my dog as I was typing.  He is much much better this morning and most of the swelling is gone.  He has had plenty of copperhead bites and this is the first time he has ever responded in that silent way that dogs do to hide pain.  He was down for about 7 hours.  Again, I am sorry.


This is how normal conversations go....there is the occasional diversion.  I'm so glad your dog is ok!


Back to our regularly scheduled programming.....


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 6, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

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## helmstead (Jul 6, 2011)

freemotion said:
			
		

> This is how normal conversations go....there is the occasional diversion.  I'm so glad your dog is ok!


x2


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## kerrihornenc (Jul 8, 2011)

Hi guys!  Just an update.  So, the doe that was paralyzed was euthanized on Tuesday.  I took her to an animal diagnostic lab for necropsy.  Yesterday, I found out that there were no intestinal parasties and nothing obvious on the initial exam.  They sent off samples of her brain, spinal cord, kidneys and liver for furthur testing.  The vet performing the necropsy actually said he was pretty stumped.  He said she was severely anemic, which I knew from Tuesday, and that the anemia, coupled with her other symptoms made no sense.  So, thats where we're at.  


As for topic diversion, how's the snake bite dog now?  Snake bites are nasty and in the veterinary field, we get pretty alarmed about rattlesnake bites.  Those are the ones that always recieve antivenin due to their nature.  The mechanism behind snake venom is the attack on the clotting factors.  A successful invenomation can cause your dog to lose its clotting factors and to bleed to death internally.  We call it a few things, DIC is one mechanism, stands for disseminated intravascular coagulation, and is basically bleeding out (without a long explanantion), so just watch your snake bite guy pretty close!  I recommend fluids to diurese that toxin out at a minimum!  Thanks again everyone! - Kerri


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## ksalvagno (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm sorry about you losing your girl. I hope the necropsy comes back with answers for you.


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## helmstead (Jul 8, 2011)




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## SDGsoap&dairy (Jul 8, 2011)

Sorry for your loss.


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## rockdoveranch (Jul 8, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss.  I hope the necropsy will give you some answers.

Thanks to all who sent good energy our way about our Boxer.  He is fine now so we figure it has to have been a copperhead.  It is a mystery as to why this bite gave him more trouble than the others, especially since it was on his leg and not his face or neck.  Maybe the snake hit a vein?  One of the vets we see is the only vet around that keeps rattlesnake anti-venom on hand.  He only keeps one dose as it is really expensive.  

Kerri, when I dog is down because of a venomous snake bite are the fluids given by IV?  When my dog was at his worse, he would not even eat a hot dog.  I had to pill him the old fashioned way . . . fingers down his throat.  

People laugh at me, but in the summer when I have to go out into the woods I wear high rubber mud boots.  A copperhead and cottonmouth could not strike above the boots, but a timber rattlesnake could.  YIKES!  Why do I live here?


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