# Winter feeding



## Abbey (Nov 13, 2012)

I am feeding our sheep/goat/donkey herd organically. Still in the process of feeling out the correct amount of feed. They have been getting supplimental grain through summer because their pasture is pretty bad (hopefully rotationally grazing next year will begin to bring it back), but now that it is winter I started feeding them hay. Its an orchard grass mix, second cutting. They weren't eating much of it which made me think they were getting way too much grain, so I cut it in half over the coarse of five days and now they are finishing their hay. 
  Is it wrong of me to put them on an all hay diet at the begining of winter when they are used to grain? Grain is bloody expensive and eventually we want an all grass fed herd. From all my reading this should be acheivable as long as pregnant or lactating does are given supplimental grain to increase protein. But you could give them alfalfa instead of grain for the extra protein, correct? 
  Is orchard grass rich enough to sustain them (no pregnant or lactating mothers this year) through winter or should I continue to add a little grain in their diet? I have been struggling through reading trying to figure out sheep/goat nutritional needs. Am I right in calculating that they need feed of 12% protein for maintenance? I think dried orchard grass is 8% do to leaching...
  And rams require less protein, right? They can have complications if fed too high a protein, so something lower, like 8% might be better?

Thank you for any advice!


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## ksalvagno (Nov 13, 2012)

You will have to judge the grain amount by if they lose weight. Feeding is almost a constant adjusting at first. Once you figure it all out for your farm, then it should go smoother. Goats need much higher copper than sheep so you will need to supplement the copper amount for the goats. Make sure you get your hands on your sheep and goats and body score them at least weekly to see if they are gaining or losing weight. Then you can adjust your feeding accordingly.

I don't know about rams but with bucks (goats) it is the calcium to phosphorus ratio (at least 2:1) that is critical to prevent UC. The protein isn't the problem in bucks.


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## Abbey (Nov 13, 2012)

Yeah, I can obviously continue to monitor their weight gain/loss but an animal can still have deficiencies and look alright. I have never carried an animal through winter on hay alone and have read a lot of peoples accounts of doing such. I am hoping for the input of those who do on orchard grass as their diet; the type of hay makes a big difference. I have read that with anything but alfalfa you should supplement protein, but then reading post on this forum people were talking about protein levels needing to be lower? Maintenance of pets is easy enough but next year we will have breeding ewes and rams, which require more planning. 
  If no one has experience with hay feeding through winter that is fine, I am just trying to project a budget for the farm and was hoping for input on appropriate hays and what other farmers do for breeding animals come winter. Grain is an easy but expensive way of ensuring enough calories/protein, but it is too expensive for us.

I was thinking I would use kelp meal and salt with selenium. I have read people on this forum say kelp meal has all enclusive  vitamins, so the phosphorus and calcium would be taken care of there. Is copper really that important for goats? I have been trying to figure this out, I mean, they get copper from grass and the copper they get from blocks is really pretty minimal. Is it really necessary to give them extra copper? We don't because we have a mixed flock with sheep.


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## Pearce Pastures (Nov 13, 2012)

Yes, copper really is that important for goats, as is selenium and some of the other minerals that are provided through either a soft mineral block, loose minerals, or goat chow.  You can feed all hay so long as it is a very good quality hay, and that is something that is hard to determine unless you have a way to actually test it (the look and smell of the hay do not mean it will provide your animal with all that they need).







http://www.jackmauldin.com/health/copper_deficiency.htm

http://www.kinne.net/cu-def.htm

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

I am not sure about the protien discussions---like Ksalvagno said, calcium to phosphorus ratios are important though.  I feed my bucks straight hay, but they also have a soft mineral block at all times (not the hard lick---that is not going to do much for the animals).  I give them some feed before breeding time, but the majority of the year, they only get hay.


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## ragdollcatlady (Nov 13, 2012)

What a devastating pic! Poor goat!


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## Abbey (Nov 20, 2012)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> Yes, copper really is that important for goats, as is selenium and some of the other minerals that are provided through either a soft mineral block, loose minerals, or goat chow.  You can feed all hay so long as it is a very good quality hay, and that is something that is hard to determine unless you have a way to actually test it (the look and smell of the hay do not mean it will provide your animal with all that they need).
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/uploads/2030_saanenleg.gif
> 
> ...


Okay, thanks to you and Ksalvagno for pointing out the need for copper. I had always thought their need was filled by grass, but I read through the articles you posted and will be checking my soil analysis and hay content. Seems a tricky thing then to keep goats and sheep together? That picture is so sad.


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## Pearce Pastures (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah, I am not sure what those who keep goats and sheep together do for feeding, unless they just don't give goats feed or minerals specified for them.  And I recently had a friend lose her three sheep because they ate the wrong feed (they have goats separated but one of the kids mixed up the foods).  I am sure they is some way to feed them separately but I am not sure how off the top of my head.


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## Chris (Nov 22, 2012)

Pearce Pastures said:
			
		

> Yeah, I am not sure what those who keep goats and sheep together do for feeding, unless they just don't give goats feed or minerals specified for them.  And I recently had a friend lose her three sheep because they ate the wrong feed (they have goats separated but one of the kids mixed up the foods).  I am sure they is some way to feed them separately but I am not sure how off the top of my head.


We have sheep and goats but they are penned separate.

Chris


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## Shelly May (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes, all livestock can do great on just good Hay without grain, grain is only important a few times a year,
before putting them in for breeding thur a few weeks at breeding, and again during late lactation. Hay should
be fed free choice tho, all they want. We here from many farms as to what they feed and how much and 
how often, But bottom line when they are not on good pasture, then just good hay is enough for them.
you said your livestock was not bred, and the choice of hay you have is good hay, grain is important if your
finishing a animal out for butcher, grain is important for some milk production, grain can be a important factor
for breeding time, or the lack of hay and pasture grain would be a supplement option. All animals will do fine
on the type of hay you have, remember feed free choice all they want. (round bales) ect. As far as the mineral
I could give my opinion with mixed livestock, but ask your vet what they recommend with mixed sheep and goat,
Grandulated minerial is the way I would go. Some of us have deeper pockets then others, but the fact is what 
did they do in the wild? An animal from the wild would be jumping up and down for all they could eat good hay
if they were offered it. (AND THRIVE) on it. Yes I feed grain for about a total of 6-8 weeks out of the year to 
my adult sheep, and I feed grain to my lambs free choice 60 days (girls) 90 days (boys) lambs are sold and thru
the winter I only have the adults, and they get mineral and free choice hay. You will be fine!!!


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## Pearce Pastures (Nov 23, 2012)

Even wild animals will decline and die if they do not get enough of the minerals they need.  Wild animals have the benefit of being able to move from one location to another to obtain a wider variety of browse, which is what goats would normally eat if they were wild kept rather than hay.  A domesticated animal ( which is sometimes not as thrifty as wild animals simply because human intervention sometimes lets animals live and breed that would normally die in the wild) that is being limited to the foods provided to them should have its nutritional requirement considered when developing a feeding program.  A goat could be fed all hay if it is high quality, which again cannot be determined just by looks and smell though those things do give some clue, and testing ones hay might be more trouble than just providing supplemental minerals which are less than ten dollars a bag or block.  Some hay is just about nutritionally void.

Like Chris said, he keeps his goats and sheep penned separately.  If that is something you could set up, it could work for you.


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## Chris (Nov 26, 2012)

Shelly May said:
			
		

> Yes, all livestock can do great on just good Hay without grain, grain is only important a few times a year,
> before putting them in for breeding thur a few weeks at breeding, and again during late lactation. Hay should
> be fed free choice tho, all they want. We here from many farms as to what they feed and how much and
> how often, But bottom line when they are not on good pasture, then just good hay is enough for them.
> ...


Don't for get the livestock we have today are quit different than there wild ancestry and there needs have changed.


Chris


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