# Sick Doeling



## SaraMerida (Nov 27, 2016)

Hello! I am new to this forum and owning goats. We have four, all does. Our youngest is about a month old we were told. She is just getting her horns. We got her and her momma together about a week ago. We were told no vax had been given. Mom was seriously underweight but is gaining well. In the past two days, Estrella (baby girl) has been acting funny. She has taken to sleeping in the chicken coop instead of with her mother in the goat pen, she isn't eating and barely drinks. We got her to eat some of her moms expressed milk with a syringe (about 30ccs) earlier but only a little bit of water. Her urine appears to be a light yellow and stool appears normal. No respiratory symptoms at all. What is happening to our baby??? What can we do?


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## TAH (Nov 27, 2016)

@Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer @babsbag


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## islandmanmitch (Nov 27, 2016)

Have they been wormed?


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## babsbag (Nov 27, 2016)

Can you take her temperature?  Normal is 101-102 or there about, nothing is exact with a goat. LOL  Respiratory can be an issue with kids, and you want always hear it or see it, sometimes they don't even run a temp. If she isn't eating she will get dehydrated. And NO CHICKEN FEED...EVER. It is very very bad for them, can kill them if they eat too much. Please make sure she isn't eating any.  I seldom see a month old kid drinking, but they are still nursing or on a bottle and just nibbling hay. Is she still nursing on mom?

The next thing to do is get a fecal sample and take it to a vet ASAP. If she is a month old she is the perfect age for cocci. This is not a worm so worming won't help. It is possible that she needs wormed, but she is a little young for me to be worrying about that as a first guess. Even if stools are normal she can have cocci. Wouldn't hurt to get a fecal on the rest of the herd too. Please do this ASAP, goats can go down hill quickly. Any vet should be able to run the fecal for you. 

Welcome to BYH and we would love to see pictures when you get a chance. Also, what kind of goats? 

Please let us know how it is going with your doeling.


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## TAH (Nov 28, 2016)

By the way welcome come from the upper state.


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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

Greetings and welcome to both @SaraMerida & @islandmanmitch   Sorry this issue brought you to us Sara. I hope you're able to get a fecal done ASAP and find the issue. Coccidiosis (cocci) is a very fast killer of young kids (goat kids). It doesn't always display bloody or irregular stool. Since you're both new to the forum and goat ownership (Sara), please browse around the various threads here on the forum. There's a LOT of information already available there. We also have a very active goat group with a lot of very experienced and knowledgeable folks who will help you all they can. If you have questions, please feel free to post them! Most likely someone will be around to respond in short order. The one thing you have to remember with goats is that they are not a science...   each is an individual and they do their best to confound and confuse...  What works for one won't necessarily work on the next.    You'll get used to it and they are pretty addictive.

Speaking of addictive, most of us on here are picture addicts. As was mentioned, if you have some you'd be willing to share with us, I'm sure you'll get lots of ooohhhs and ahhhhs over them  Glad you both joined us and look forward to seeing you on the boards! Make yourselves at home!

Edit: Oh, as an aside... You guys should go over to the new members section and do a brief intro so we can all welcome you properly.


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

She does eat chicken food! Every chance she gets! I thought since they were both rumenents It wouldnt hurt her! No fever. 101.2 rectal. What can i do about the ingestión of chicken food??? Obviously I will stop. But anything I can do about already having eaten it? I will introduce and add pix soon


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2016)

SaraMerida said:


> She does eat chicken food! Every chance she gets! I thought since they were both rumenents It wouldnt hurt her! No fever. 101.2 rectal. What can i do about the ingestión of chicken food??? Obviously I will stop. But anything I can do about already having eaten it? I will introduce and add pix soon


Not good. How does her belly look/feel? You may need too give her a C&D antotoxin and baking soda and treat her if/like she has bloat. Chicken feed can kill her. It is nutritionally way off balance by itself and it expands inside of her which can result in bloat and/or rumen acidosis.

@Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer @babsbag

A fecal is still a good idea. She is prime age for parasites.

Oh, chickens aren't ruminants.


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## luvmypets (Nov 28, 2016)

Chickens are monogastric aka have one stomach, I believe the technical term is Avian digestive tract.Its starts in the crop which basically stores everything, then gradually moves to the gizzard to be ground up. Small bits of rock and grit basically break down the food. then to the intestines and Im sure you know the rest.

Ruminants(as Im sure you know) have a four part stomach. First is the actual rumen organ,  in which food is stored to be fermented. If you see your animal chewing cud that is regurgetated from the rumen(yummy). The second part is the Reticulum which captures any non-edible things the animal may have ingested(ex: nails, wire, string etc). Then we move to the omasum that breaks food down further snd then onto the abomasum which is known as the true stomach. Then it moves to the intestines. 
Just for the record I had to google some of that as my knowledge is a tad rusty. If any of that is off let me know.

Okay sorry Im a nerd , hope your doeling feels better


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2016)

luvmypets said:


> Chickens are monogastric aka have one stomach, I believe the technical term is Avian digestive tract.Its starts in the crop which basically stores everything, then gradually moves to the gizzard to be ground up. Small bits of rock and grit basically break down the food. then to the intestines and Im sure you know the rest.
> 
> Ruminants(as Im sure you know) have a four part stomach. Rumen, Reticulum, abomasum, and omasum(not in that order).
> 
> Okay sorry Im a nerd , hope your doeling feels better


I don't understand why the goat's stomach is referred to as the rumen when there are really 4 different parts.


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

Well really f*ed that up... I have started an IV and called the vet (since last night). I am giving subq lactated ringer. Her breath sounds are clear but I do note a small amount of mucus from her nose. She is breathing mugs hollowed then normal. I sent my husband for pediatric oral iron and vitamin b injections. The vet is still "in the way." Her abdomen doesn't seem more distended then normal. Also, I am in a rural area of Mexico. I don't know the names of things in Spanish... C&d antotoxin?


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## luvmypets (Nov 28, 2016)

SaraMerida said:


> Well really f*ed that up... I have started an IV and called the vet (since last night). I am giving subq lactated ringer. Her breath sounds are clear but I do note a small amount of mucus from her nose. She is breathing mugs hollowed then normal. I sent my husband for pediatric oral iron and vitamin b injections. The vet is still "in the way." Her abdomen doesn't seem more distended then normal. Also, I am in a rural area of Mexico. I don't know the names of things in Spanish... C&d antotoxin?


Has there been any major temp change? How's her temp?  I might suspect pnuemonia, it happened to my ewe over the summer. She had nasal discharge, seperated herself from her kids(lambs that are 1 yr apaart) and wouldn't eat. This is coming from a ewe who was/still is a little piggy. Is it possible that is what she has?


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

I gave her baking soda and carbonated probiotic drink. I forced her to stand for a few seconds but she can't on her own. Her left side does sound distended. She bleated a little. The husband is going to milk the mom, do you think we should give her some of moms milk?


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

In humans, I would hear odd lung sounds with pneumonia, which I don't on her. Anything is possible. No temperature changes.


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## frustratedearthmother (Nov 28, 2016)

The four parts actually have different names:

The primary difference between a *ruminant* and nonruminant is that *ruminants* have a *four*-compartment *stomach*. The *four parts* are the *rumen*, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum. In the first two chambers, the *rumen* and the reticulum, the food is mixed with saliva and separates into layers of solid and liquid material.


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## luvmypets (Nov 28, 2016)

frustratedearthmother said:


> The four parts actually have different names:
> 
> The primary difference between a *ruminant* and nonruminant is that *ruminants* have a *four*-compartment *stomach*. The *four parts* are the *rumen*, reticulum, omasum, and abomasum. In the first two chambers, the *rumen* and the reticulum, the food is mixed with saliva and separates into layers of solid and liquid material.


I actually posted a more detailed explanation while someone quoted my post LOL. Always good to refresh my memory tho


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

Shes having seizures now. In humans that's a sign that death is probably imminent due to higher urea in the blood. Is that a things with goats too? I am so sad. I feel like this was something so basic that I should have known.


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

This is her... The vet called and said he was coming soon but I'm sure it's too late now. I'm glad the kids are at school. I'm just so upset. Poor baby girl...


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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

It's one stomach with four compartments. The word "_ruminant_" comes from the Latin ruminare, which _means_ "to chew over again". So they call the stomach a rumin in general, where it's actually the designation of the first chamber where the cud is primarily regurgitated from.

As for the bloat issue, I believe the way it works is: the chicken feed turns the stomach acidic which knocks the PH out of balance (low) causing the rumin to "shut down" and the fermentation gasses build up with no place to go and the stomach expands... Baking soda lowers the acidity to raise PH (alkalinity) to get the rumin started back up again. Much the same as when we have acid indigestion and get gas, but we can burp, and take antacids (baking soda) to lower acid and raise alkalinity (PH).

Others can explain ways to determine if she's bloating or not. There are several ways to try and determine and since I've never experienced it, I'll leave it to the pros.

Giving anything carbonated and baking soda at the same time is counter productive. The baking soda is to lower acidity and help remove the gas. If she's bloated, she won't want to eat/drink and add even more to her already distended stomach. If you put your ear to her left side you should/may be able to "hear" if her rumin is working...


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

I hear nothing in her left side


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

Can I do anything to help her rumen go again or is it too late?


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2016)

I personally would try to drench baking soda while waiting for the vet. If you can, call the vet and ask what he wants you to do.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2016)

Do you have probiotics?


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## lcertuche (Nov 28, 2016)

Such a helpless feeling when something is sick. I hope everything turns out well.


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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

I'm sorry, I'm in the midst of heavy rain squalls w/wind and my satellite internet keeps dropping out...   Once more I'm waiting on my internet to re-connect.

I don't know if it is bloat & I have no experience with bloat... I wish I did so I could offer guidance to you. Search the site for goat and bloat and hopefully numerous threads will pop up where you can start. 

Hopefully the vet will get there soon and hopefully it's a livestock vet and more specifically, goat knowledgeable. If he/she is a vet that knows goats, consider yourself the equal of a lottery winner.


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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

To my way of thinking, bloat isn't normally an issue in a one month old kid. Normally a one month old kid is only just starting to nibble hay/grass/etc. They are still pretty much on mom's milk... Did you SEE her eating the chicken food? Cocci is a kid killer and can do so in a matter of 12-24 hours. Kids can also sometimes breath in milk while drinking and get pneumonia, another thing that can kill a kid very quickly... I'm sorry I can't be of more help. 

and AGAIN I've lost internet! I'm sorry but weather prevents me from offering anything more.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 28, 2016)

Could you drench her with probiotics?


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## samssimonsays (Nov 28, 2016)

I am so sorry, I hope she pulls through.


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## babsbag (Nov 28, 2016)

I have been through this with a doe. 

You need to neutralize the acid that was caused by the grain in the chicken feed. She needs baking soda mixed with water and a lot of it. 1/2 cup mixed with 2-4 qts of water. or  Milk of Magnesia or a large bottle of Pepto Mismol. This is for an adult goat so reduce the quantity of the drench. Diarrhea is good at this point, you want to move that out of her. My vet would have you give Pen G., probiotics, and banamine as well.

The CD Antitoxin is to stop Enterotoxemia. This is not the one normally used for the vaccine, it is used to stop the entero once it has started. It also not something most goat people have on hand, maybe your vet will.

https://www.jefferspet.com/products/cl-perfringens-c-d-antitoxin

I really hope she makes it, I am so sorry to hear that she is having seizures. Don't beat yourself up, you aren't the first goat owner to have a problem with chicken feed. Goats can be a steep learning curve.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2016)

babsbag said:


> Don't beat yourself up, you aren't the first goat owner to have a problem with chicken feed. Goats can be a steep learning curve.



Happened to me the 1st week I got goats...


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## samssimonsays (Nov 28, 2016)

Happened to our dogs from eating the goat feed we used. Things happen, all we can do is learn from it and move forward no matter the outcome. Big hugs.


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## SaraMerida (Nov 28, 2016)

She passed away about an hour ago. The vet finally came minutes before she passed. When he looked her over he said that she was bitten on her leg by something. We are putting chicken fence around the goat corral to make sure the other little one doesn't get out and will be chhanging how we feed them in case that had something to do with it. I was balling like a baby. I've been as advanced practice nurse for years and before that a registered nurse so death is not new to me, but I was surprised at how responsible I felt with her. I appreciate all of your responses and advice and I will be adding baking soda water to the other girls feed routine. I have seen them all eat the chicken food before. I'm hoping the vet was right and it was a sting/bite and my other girls don't get the same thing. My vet was completely useless and I wish there were more vets around here that handled goats. Lessons learned the hard way. Thanks again everyone who helped!


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## samssimonsays (Nov 28, 2016)

I am so sorry for your loss. It is always heart breaking to lose them.


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## Green Acres Farm (Nov 28, 2016)




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## Latestarter (Nov 28, 2016)

Sincere condolences... It's never easy to lose an animal. If she was bitten by something, I hope the same thing doesn't happen to the others.


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## babsbag (Nov 28, 2016)

I am so sorry you lost her.  

A useless vet just means that you need to learn all you can about goats. This forum is a great place to learn and ask questions and if you know advanced nursing you are leaps ahead of many of us.  The biggest thing to remember about goats is that they are herd animals so anytime they separate themselves from the herd there is a problem. I tell people. "know you goat",  any change in behavior is something to watch for. They go downhill quickly so the sooner you catch it the better. 

You need to get them all a CDT vaccine for starters. Get a microscope and learn to do your own fecals to check for parasites, and maybe look for another vet as there are times that you need them. 

Get you goat kit together and keep Pepto Bismol or Magnalax on hand. Also PenG and oxcytetracycline and some syringes. Some probiotics would be good too.  Can you get this stuff in Mexico or mail order?

Hope you stick around and become a regular part of BYH, this is a great resource.


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## Goat Whisperer (Nov 28, 2016)




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## norseofcourse (Nov 28, 2016)

I'm so sorry you lost her     If she was bit by something there may not have been anything you could have done.  Like babsbag says, the more you learn, the better - even if you find a good goat vet.


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## Hens and Roos (Nov 28, 2016)

so sorry to hear


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## TAH (Nov 29, 2016)

Hope the others stay healthy.


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## TAH (Nov 29, 2016)

Hope the others stay healthy.


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## Lanthanum (Nov 29, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> Not good. How does her belly look/feel? You may need too give her a C&D antotoxin and baking soda and treat her if/like she has bloat. Chicken feed can kill her. It is nutritionally way off balance by itself and it expands inside of her which can result in bloat and/or rumen acidosis.
> 
> @Southern by choice @Goat Whisperer @babsbag
> 
> ...


Are we talking about chicken SCRATCH here? Because I have an eight month pygmy who got in heat so I seperated her from the boys but my only other pen is being housed with my lone chicken, Baby Girl. (She comes from a different flock and picks bloody fights with the others)
 Anywho, I throw scratch in there and put sweet feed in there too, and I've seen Scout (my pygmy) eating the scratch from the dirt instead of her feed and I thought nothing of it. She is seeming constantly bloated though and I've been extremely worried that I just seperated her too late when she went into heat and has been bred. Is this what's causing bloat?


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