# Portable electric fence?



## freechicken (Apr 8, 2016)

Hi all!

We currently keep a heard of dairy goats but due to our commitment to raising as much of our own food as possible, we are considering selling the goats and investing in a cow instead. We have a small homestead and use portable electric net fencing to rotate grazing areas for the goats. Will that same fencing hold a cow and her calf? Or should we replace it with something else? Thanks in advance!


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 8, 2016)

Any fence that will hold goats should hold a cow and her calf. As long as the top wire is at nose-height to your cow (not your calf), you should be good.


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## freechicken (Apr 8, 2016)

We need to invest in more to expand the pasture size. Is the electric net overkill for cattle? The fencing we have is 44".


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## Latestarter (Apr 8, 2016)

Ummm just throwing this out there for thought/consideration... 

If you're about self sustainability/sufficiency, why would you trade out goats in favor of a cow or cow/calf pair? Cows are much more expensive to buy, are substantially larger, need more space, more food, are more expensive to keep, cost more to fix if something goes wrong, make way more waste that is much less readily usable (wet patties vs dry pellets), take much longer to mature, much longer to gestate... 

If you want milk, a cow will make substantially more milk than a goat (can you use 3-5+ gallons a day) but the gestation period of 9 almost 10 months for a cow vs 5 months for a goat means you'll either need a second cow in milk (doubling everything mentioned above), or do without for a much longer time. If for meat, a cow/steer is going to need 18-24 months to reach reasonable butcher weights.

I hope it all works out for you! Good luck!


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## babsbag (Apr 8, 2016)

I agree with @Latestarter. If you want beef for meat get a steer, keep the goats, and raise the steer on some of that goat's milk. You can eat goat meat too; it is really good.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 8, 2016)

I missed the part about *selling* the goats. I would agree with Latestarter, but I would really want to know: WHY do you want to sell the goats other than for self-sustainability purposes (and as Latestarter put it, doing so may be counter-intiuitive or setting you back instead of going more forward)? Why not sell some of the dairy goats and get some meat goats if you want to add animals for meat as well?


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## Latestarter (Apr 8, 2016)

From the sig line, she only has 2 French Alpine dairy goats. That info may be out of date/incorrect, no way for me to know, but yes, a couple of meat goats could be purchased rather cheaply or maybe a couple of cross/dual purpose breeds. Then get a buck to breed with them and produce offspring for milk and meat, far cheaper/sustainable/cost effective than milk cows or cattle in general... IMHO


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## Pastor Dave (Apr 8, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> ...but yes, a couple of meat goats could be purchased rather cheaply or maybe a couple of cross/dual purpose breeds. Then get a buck to breed with them and produce offspring for milk and meat, far cheaper/sustainable/cost effective than milk cows or cattle in general... IMHO



Ahh, that sounds exactly like what I want to do. Had a good typed "conversation" with samantha drawz earlier today about the same topic, but still having to wrestle with it and throw it around more in my mind.


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## freechicken (Apr 8, 2016)

Well, we have added to our herd and now have four Alpines and a Nubian. We raise 4-5 pigs each year and feed them milk along with making our own dairy products for our own use. Boer goats are very expensive in our area so breeding our  dairy goats to a boer would be very expensive- much more expensive than breeding them to a Dairy buck or even paying for AI on a cow. We attempted to raise our spring kids this year for meat but very quickly realized that in doing so we didn't have anywhere near the amount of milk we need. And I dream of  butter and sour cream....


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## Latestarter (Apr 8, 2016)

I do wish you luck with your decision, choice! I hope it all works out for you! Hope you'll let us know how it turns out/works for you.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 8, 2016)

So how "small" a homestead do you actually have, in terms of acreage?


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## freechicken (Apr 9, 2016)

We have 2.5 acres. I read in Joann Grohman's Keeping a Family Cow that flies can be an issue if manure is not picked up daily so that's something we will take into consideration. I know that we don't have enough grazing area to support her but we are already buying hay year round for the goats. The goats are such picky eaters and waste half of their hay. As soon as it touches the ground they won't eat it.  

I am completely in agreement that if we had more land, we could maintain out lifestyle of raising our own food more efficiently. Unfortunately we don't so we do the best we can on what we have. We haven't bought meat from the store in two years. Everything we eat either comes from our own land or was raised locally. We are entirely committed to this lifestyle for ourselves and our children. We absolutely could buy meat and milk cheaper from the store, but we don't want to do that. 

Now I could be completely wrong but I am thinking that keeping a single cow and maybe her calf would be easier than maintaining five goats plus the buckets of kids they have each year.

We have several neighbors that keep cattle so we would have someone to help if things went south on us.

Thanks for all of your thoughts and advice. It's very helpful!


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## Mini Horses (Apr 9, 2016)

I have dairy goats who give me delicious milk and lots of it.   But, I dream of cows milk with the lovely cream rising naturally to the top.   Butter is a favorite of mine!    While I have let the goat milk sit and scooped the cream it is a slow process -- the butter was good.    A separator is expensive BUT, if I compare that the cost of buying & feeding a cow INSTEAD of the cost of butter I would buy when not using my goat milk -- well, that separator is a bargain!!

With your acreage, a cow & calf are going to need hay -- and she will eat as much as all of your goats put together.   Goats can be staggered breeding to ensure year round milk.  Plus the "cow patty" thing  vs pellets.   Sure easier to sweep than shovel.

Now, you may do better with other than Alpine.  More milk per goat, more butterfat and, heavier bodied animals.   Years back I raised a herd of FB Boer and they ARE better for meat but, there are other breeds that do a heck of a job with carcass weight.   Although I like a good beef roast, for me the goats are just more economical and can still provide what I need -- milk, cheese, sour cream, butter, yogurt, kefir, plus extra for the pigs, chickens, dogs & cats. (And meat if I want to butcher)  Plus they are smaller to handle.

It may seem that we are all saying "DO NOT" get a cow.  Not true.  One is even a cattle raiser.  Just suggesting  why so many of us actually use the goats instead of a cow for self sufficiency.   In my area the Boer goat is no longer expensive and I could get a breeding quite inexpensively.   I'm trying hard not to buy another goat! 

I wish you well with your decision and let us know how it goes.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 10, 2016)

If you are going to switch from goats to a cow, get a small-sized cow, like a Jersey or a Dexter. Or even a Mini Jersey. (Dexters are good because they're dual purpose: good for both meat and milk, and a bit easier to feed than a Jersey for meat because of more efficient energy requirements, i.e., dexters need less grain or energy supplement to gain weight than a jersey does.) Then get two: One a cow, another a steer. Or, get the cow, and keep one or two goats behind as company, because cattle are social animals and don't like being alone. 

Rotationally graze them like with the goats, but do so so that they have a chance to trample their own manure and the grass as they move along. Two and a half acres (maybe only two acres to graze?) won't last very long with grazing, but if you have a good growing year and limit the size of your paddocks enough so that you can switch them daily or sooner to stretch out the time they're on pasture as long as possible. That's one way of doing it. Another way is letting them graze during the day, and put them in at night with some hay, that way it limits their grazing time at night. Cattle often will (and do) graze at night. 

You will have to get used to some different behaviours with cattle. They act different from goats; some behaviours are similar, others different. 

Cattle are a little easier to raise because they're not going to be testing the fence as often and stupidly as goats tend to. So the electric net fence is not needed, just a single strand of poly-wire with some pig-tail posts will be enough of a psychological barrier to keep them in. (Not goats.) 

They won't be as picky with the feed either because goats are more browsers and like the forbs and the broad-leaf weeds more than the grass. Cattle still will waste, but to limit waste depends on how you go about feeding them (which I'd love to know with the goats). You'll probably see a change in pasture plants too over time, since cattle will avoid certain plants that goats will go nuts over in the pasture (and in the hay). 

What else...can't think of anything right now. But when I do after some new replies to this thread that will refresh my memory, I'll post them here. Here's also a great place to start asking questions about cows too!!

BTW, where's home for you?


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## freechicken (Apr 10, 2016)

We live in southeastern Idaho. I am in complete agreement on the size of cow you recommended. A Dexter is my first choice but it appears to be impossible, at least over here, to find one that has ever been milked. People here raise them exclusively for meat which makes it difficult to judge the cow's milk production. It also means that they aren't as tame and docile as an experienced milk cow may be. 

We have a small apple orchard on our property which we have had to keep the goats out of because they destroy every tree we let them near. Will cows destroy our trees as well or can we let them in to keep the grass down in that portion of the property?


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## freechicken (Apr 10, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> I have dairy goats who give me delicious milk and lots of it.   But, I dream of cows milk with the lovely cream rising naturally to the top.   Butter is a favorite of mine!    While I have let the goat milk sit and scooped the cream it is a slow process -- the butter was good.    A separator is expensive BUT, if I compare that the cost of buying & feeding a cow INSTEAD of the cost of butter I would buy when not using my goat milk -- well, that separator is a bargain!!




I have been researching cream separators but most of the reviews and blog posts I am reading say that it is too much of a hassle to use the cream separator regularly because of the cleaning and assembly. The cream issue is one of my top three reasons for wanting a cow. 

What has your experience been with using a cream separator with your goat milk? How often do you use it? Where do you store it? Which  brand do you have?


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## babsbag (Apr 11, 2016)

I would think that you could find a Boer buck fairly cheap, even if you had to come down to CA. I can get a Boer buck for less than $200 if I am not looking for a show animal. I used to breed my Alpines to a Boer just to get some more meat on the kids that I was going to butcher; worked out well. 

I don't own a cream separator but everything I have read says to buy a Nova brand if you are buying one.  I too thought of owning a cow instead of goats, but I don't do cow patties, it just grosses me out to walk through that in my fields.


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## greybeard (Apr 11, 2016)

If you really want a cow for your 2 1/2 acres, get one. Had cows most of my life,currently  got 42 head total and right now 8 of them and their calves are on 14 acres surrounding my yard on 3 sides, with the most distant of the yard fence away is 75'. Flies have never been a problem and not once in my life have I ever gone around picking up cow patties unless I wanted some for a compost pile.  Bugs and rain decompose cow poop pretty dang quick.

By sectioning off your 2 1/2 acres into small paddocks with an inexpensive elec fence, you can do rotational grazing or what is called management/mob intensive grazing and it will work with just one cow/calf pair as easily as it works with a herd. 
I've been a member here for 5 years now and don't poke my head in here much anymore, for the same reason most of the old cattle people that used to be here have left permanently. 
No reflection on you at all FreeChicken, but Those reasons are readily apparent in this thread.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 11, 2016)

They can be tamed and trained, it just takes time, commitment, and a bit of know-how with halter training and bovine psychology. Patience is very helpful too. Otherwise a Jersey (two is better) is your better bet.

Don't worry about the manure problem. It sorts itself out if you let Nature take care of things, and it's actually good for the pasture if you leave it there instead of trying to clean up after the animals and make more unnecessary work for yourself.

Again, really, really go ahead with the MIG on your small acreage. Depending on how you manage it and the precip in your area you may not have the two cattle on for long at first, but if you manage it right, you'll find you can graze your small area for longer as your herbage production increases with the proper grazing management.

Remember, as greybeard said: With single-strand electric make the smallest paddocks as you dare, according to how often you want to move. Also, rest paddocks for 30+ days, graze quicker if you are getting in when the grasses are bolting out, use the leave-half-take-half principle, and if you run out of pasture before the first paddock has recovered fully, pull them out into the sacrifice pen and feed them until your pasture is ready again.

Originally I was going to say to not get a cow, but I really think you can make it work. It's just a little different management scheme with a couple bigger critters.

With your apple tree, your cows will try to consume the lower branches and use it as a scratching post. So if you are going to have them graze there, just for a short time or just section the tree off altogether for the time that they're grazing in there. Overall though, the cattle will do less damage to the tree than your goats. Remember, goats are much more browsers than grazers.

Been sticking around here longer than GB has, more because I support those trying to make a go at it with raising cattle than other animals. Some animals get a little more attention than others, but no skin off my nose. If I can help anyone with cattle stuff, I'm certainly game. And a few of the old cattle folks do pop in now and then, but there hasn't been many as there have been before, and the reasons for that are history and beyond my control.


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## Latestarter (Apr 11, 2016)

Hey, I'm just glad that the both of you (still) do come in when you do. It's nice to have that knowledge and experience available.


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## Mini Horses (Apr 12, 2016)

I like cattle.  Used to keep 10-15 feeders, LOTS of pasture for them, treed areas, lovely.   But, older I get, less I can mess with the size & requirements.     Sure miss that freezer full of home grown steaks!


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