# doe with dirreaha (sp)



## treeclimber233 (Jun 8, 2011)

The other day I noticed my doe was grinding her teeth some.  I asked a friend of mine (that I got the goat from) what was going on.  She mentioned digestive upset.  When I checked the doe again she was not grinding her teeth.  Today she has really bad dirreah.  I have been feeding her hay and haystretcher pellets.  She has been eating this diet for a long time with no problems.  In the spring I started letting all the does eat clover/grass in pasture when I had time to tie them out.  I put some fence up around a small area and started letting them out for up to 8 hours and did not notice any problems.  Then they started not wanting to eat their hay and constantly hollared to get out.  Since they stopped eating the hay I upped the haystretcher.  The babies never got out to eat clover/grass so they have continued to eat the hay just fine.  Just my does were getting "special attention".  Now one has really bad dirreah.  Any suggestions?


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## DonnaBelle (Jun 8, 2011)

Since it could be several different things my suggestion is to get a fecal sample and take it to the vet.  This is to see if she has a worm load or coccidiosis..Both can be fatal, but are easy to treat.

In the meantime if you could give her some Probios, it's a good tasting gel that is to restore rumim balance.  Goats have good bacteria in their stomachs and must maintain a balanced bacteria.  She could have eaten something that didn't agree with her.  You can get it at a feed store or pet store.

DonnaBelle


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 8, 2011)

My friend suggested Milk of Mag so I got some and gave her 4 tbs (recommended amount for adult human).  Then my friend suggested worming her which I did with Equimectrin (250 lbs dose).  I have some probiotics for rabbits.  Can I use this on a goat?  I am making some warm water with molasses mixed in to see if she will drink some.  I cannot get her to eat anything this evening.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 8, 2011)

I think you can use any of the probiotics, but I am not sure a probiotic for a rabbit would be quit as good as one for a ruminant, but probably wont hurt anything.  

If she stays off feed tomorrow and keeps scouring, she will be in pretty rough shape in just a couple days.  

Things you can do for her, beside a fecal test and knowing for sure what worms you are dealing with. 

vitamin B injections
Red cell given orally
Use a different kind of wormer on her, like valbazene(if she is NOT pregnant) 
lots of probiotics
mix the molasses with a couple ounces of yogurt(not the light kind)

The wormer you used is a common one, as long as you gave her a big enough dose, should be 3x the recommend dosage for a horse. so you dose of 250lbs would be good for an 80lb goat. Is she bigger than 80lbs?


Let us know how she is doing tomorrow.


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 9, 2011)

this morning there is no improvement.  I am going to get some nutridrence and probiotics.  She is not eating or drinking molassass water.  Seems kinda weak too.  I am afraid I might lose her.  Another doe is also down this morning. And one of the kids is kinda skinny.  worming all around seems to be the order of the day.


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## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

One thing I learned about goats (the hard way) is get on top of this FAST.  Goats die really quick when start scouring.  Any chance there were wild cherry trees in her encousure?  Since there are now two of them plus a kid who are all getting sick at the same time, it sounds like they ate something that wasn't good for them.


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't think they ate anything unusual.  The adults are let out to eat grass/clover/weeds but the babies are only eating grass I cut for them or hay/haystretcher.  Back to the barn to do ......something.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 9, 2011)

ivermectin might not be strong enough to deal with what you have, or you may be dealing with coccidiosis and ivermectin wont help with that at all. 

You need to either get fecal samples in to the vet. right away

Or you need to reworm, using two different families of wormers and treat for coccidiosis.  Right away. You are right you may loose someone. I personally haven't had much luck with ivermectin.


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## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

When my goats got into cherry trees and got scours, I dumped a bunch of kayo-pectate down their throats.  I don't know if that's done anymore, but it always worked for me.  What about a big dose of baking soda?  Might that help? And get a fecal to the vet ASAP rather than treating for unknown parasites.  I still think it was something they ate differently since so many were affected all at once.  Some weeds are toxic.  Was this pasture new to them?


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 9, 2011)

It is very common for several animals in a herd to break with a heavy parasite load at one time.


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 9, 2011)

The pasture is not new to them.  However since it has been so dry the clover seems to be wilting a bit.  Would that hurt them?  Would cocci cause a temperature in the goats?  I could not get a temp on the one that died because she fought everything I tried to do to her except milking.  After she died I took her temp and it was 103.  Now another one has dirreaha and I took her temp. It is even higher.  I have called a vet and waiting for him to call back.  I guess it is not something they ate.  I don't know what they may have since I have not introduced any new goats for 8-9 months.  And he came from a clean herd.


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## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=127368

according to this link (and others) wilted clover can be toxic.  Fresh or dried is fine, but toxic when wilted.  I wonder if that could have done it?


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 9, 2011)

The clover in that article was red clover.  The clover in their field has white blossoms.  Wonder if that makes a difference.  But that would explain why only the does are affected.  The babies are not allowed out with the does and the buck hasent been in that field either. I hope it is not the clover.  It is knee deep in their field.


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## carolinagirl (Jun 9, 2011)

according to other links I found, white clover can be toxic when wilted too.  But you're right....if the other goats didn't get it, it's unlikely.  I hope your vet figured it out FAST and you don't lose anymore.


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## 20kidsonhill (Jun 9, 2011)

Just wondering, but have these goats ever been vaccinated? If not, they could have one of the strains of overeating disease, from being on all that fresh green pasture. 

My guess is still a heavy worm load.  If I can't keep the worm load down in the spring and the goats keep breaking I dry lot them for a while. When I get the scours cleaned up we try again with the pasture. 

It is hot there, they may run a tempurature just because there system can't regulate itself.  Or could be bacterial scours.   

It is all guessing until a vet looks at them, runs a fecal, ect...... possibly an autopsy on the dead one. 

Sorry it is not going well for you.


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## treeclimber233 (Jun 9, 2011)

Well I got a vet here (finally).  He said the doe that is starting with dirreaha has a bacterial something.  He took her temp and it was 105.  He said it might be because it was so hot but I told him when I took her temp earlier (before it got hot) it was 105.  He gave her 4 shots--one for fever reducer, one was antibiotic, the other two I am not sure. (I was stressed and forgot)  He left me with meds to inject for 4 days.  There is enough to inject anyone else that starts to run a fever.  I am going to be checking everyone for fever for a while.  I forgot to ask him where to inject her.  I was at the barn a while ago and she did eat a couple mouthfuls of hay so maybe there is hope for her.  He also took a stool sample with him and is going to call me tomorrow with the results.  Hope tomorrow is a better day.  We took the two that died today to the landfill (to remove all germs possible from my other goats)and the lady that let us in said there are 11 goats scheduled to arrive tomorrow.  11 goats. I don't know if they are all from the same farm or not but there must be something going around here.  I am not sure how bacterial whatever is passed but I have not been around any other goats for a long time and have not visited any farms that have animals of any kind.  Could I have brought something home from a feed store?


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## Roll farms (Jun 10, 2011)

Have they been vaccinated?  

There are a million things that can kill a goat....enterotoxemia being one.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/enterotoxemia/enterotoxemia2.shtml

"Enterotoxemia is one of the very important diseases and in some areas it is the most prevalent disease of goats. Despite the fact that it is also called ''Overeating Disease'' it is not caused by overeating. Actually, the cause (etiology) of the disease is the toxin (poison) produced by the bacterium Clostridium perfringens type C or type D.

The bacteria are normally present in the soil and the intestinal tract in relatively small numbers. Under certain conditions the organisms proliferate (reproduce billions of their own kind) in the intestine and produce toxin in lethal quantities. These conditions are those which (1) provide an ideal environment and food for bacterial proliferation and (2) slow down the normal movement of material through the intestinal tract; they are often satisfied by ingesting large amounts of starch when the intestinal tract is not accustomed to it. The disease is often associated with lush fast growing pasture or cereal crops, heavy grain feeding or access to a lot of milk. Illnesses which slow down the intestinal tract, may predispose to the accumulation of dangerous quantities of the toxin. 


The Acute course of disease lasts 4-26 hours and usually ends in death. Initially the temperature may go to 105F with severe abdominal pain (the kid cries so loudly it is best described as screaming). Profuse slimy or water diarrhea will occur. Depression, wobbly gait, recumbancy (lying down on side often with head down) occur early. Convulsions often occur intermittently and may be accompanied by continuous or intermittent opisthotonos (head thrown straight over back). The animal may slip into a coma before death or die groaning or even crying. These signs occur in kids but can occur in adult milking goats from either Type C or D bacteria."

Even if they have been vaccinated, that doesn't 100% guarantee protection.  Some producers vaccinate 2x a year to increase protection.

Keep in mind that in an already weak / compromised goat, such as one carrying a heavy worm or cocci load, that any opportunistic bug can kill.

A goat who is grinding it's teeth is in pain / distress and you need to act FAST to find out what the cause is.
Things like Milk of Mag., probios, nutri drench, etc. are like bandaids.  
They will not "fix" a problem if there is one, and while they will help, they sometimes help to mask other symptoms.  
I try to always find out (as well as I can) what the real issue is - disease, parasite, injury, etc. - before treating because bandaids can mask other symptoms and give a false sense of security.

If I have a goat that is "down", with a temp, the *first* thing I do is hit it w/ a shot of Pen G or Nuflor (depending on the symptoms).  I may also give a B shot (always a good idea) and will drench fluids or offer pain / fever reducer meds but if I suspect it's got something to do w/ the stomach, the last thing I want to do is put a bunch of extra foreign stuff down it's throat to complicate the issue and further aggravate the gut.  Probiotics would be about as far as I'd go, unless it's an issue where baking soda would help (bloat).  I give the antibiotic time to work and when I see improvement, *then* I'll try more 'bandaids' if I think they will help give the goat comfort.
Masking the symptoms and further upsetting the gut generally make things worse, is my point.

In reference to your question about so many local goats dying lately....
It's been my experience that when a producer loses a lot of goats at the same time, it's typically:
A) dietary - they got into something poisonous or overate something they shouldn't have had access to.
B) disease - some producers don't vaccinate (and will say, "We never have and have never had a problem." but that's just it...nobody ever has a problem until they do, if you know what I mean...) and when the right conditions happen for enterotoxemia to 'bloom'...they find out that vaccinating ain't such a bad idea afterall.  Nursing a goat through tetanus (or more commonly, losing one to it) is usually all it takes to convince producers that CDT vaccinations are worthwhile.
C) parasites - again, some producers, esp. new ones, don't "know" that worms can kill as quickly as they do.  If you don't keep up on herd health checks (coat condition, eyelid color, fecals, etc.) you can 'suddenly' find several very sick / dying goats...  A cocci bloom can wipe out an entire kid crop.

Then there are the other more rare but relevant factors like vitamin and / or mineral deficiency (Goat polio or white muscle disease), scary diseases like listeriosis, tetanus, lepto, and less common parasites (lung worm, liver fluke, meningeal worm).

With kids, you have to always keep coccidia in the back of your mind, along w/ worms and diseases.

This is in no way meant as a 'you should have' or 'you were wrong to' post where I'm blaming you.  I learned all this stuff the hard way myself, and lost goats when I was learning.  I have lost 3 this past year to various ailments, goats are an ongoing learning process where you can never know everything and have to keep a constant watch on them / their behavior to stay ahead of the game.  

I'm sorry you're going through this, I really am.


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