# Housing LGD Puppy (start as you mean to go?)



## Megs501 (Jan 27, 2017)

We will be getting a Great Pyr/Anatolian mix puppy next weekend and are trying to get things ready; he will be a working dog, bonded ot the animals more than us.  I've just read SO much information, and I need to get concise info...  (background- we have a GP that is food dominant that we are rehoming.  She is not doing well in a farm setting trying to retrain her.  She snapped and made contact with my daughter while she was chewing on a stick. We did NOT get her as a puppy, though I love her dearly, she can't stay.  We want ot be sure we do this RIGHT this time, since we will be fully responsible for this dog's raising)



 We have 2 calves, and will have cows in the future, but I mainly want my chickens safe-I know this takes several years of training.  I mostly get that.  But it is a getting started questions I have:



*1) would you house him in the chicken run, in his own pen? Or in a kennel in the barn?*
I am attaching a picture of the coop and run (in our backyard) and the barn (behind a horse fence).  The ducks are fed in the barn, the chickens in their coop, the cows in the barn.  

*Any help or tips on establishing his "home" for him are welcome-I am just not sure how much eh should be in his pen?  *

*Can he be on a runner in the yard, in front of the coop unsupervised?  *

*Or does he really need to be in his pen?*

* As a puppy, should he be out when we are home (which is all the time mostly, because we homeschool...) or confined to his pen?  *



*2)* I've been told feed him with an automatic feeder to help prevent food dominance, and also pick up and put down his food (me and the kids with supervision). * Does this sound right?*



*3) Do I walk him around the perimeter of his boundaries each day as I have read?*  Or is that too much handling for a working LGD?  I thought I would get up each morning and walk him around the boundaries, if that is okay.



*4)* I understand no playing and romping with the kids.  he needs manners- sit, come (within a GP's ability ha), leave it, and no sleeping on the porch-he needs to be bonded to his flock, right?  It is hard because our home is very close to the pasture, pond, barn, and that area.  *But I need to redirect him to the coop/barn area right?*



*5) When will he be ready to sleep outside his pen?  a certain age? size?*



*6) Other than supervision, and a firm deep NO for discipline if/when he tries to bounce on the chickens, any other training tips?*





Thanks SO much!  We really want to do this right.
(corss posted in BYC group-no response yet)


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## TAH (Jan 27, 2017)

@Southern by choice is very helpful, so I I'll tag her.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jan 27, 2017)

Yes, you should really talk to SBC.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 27, 2017)

How old is this pup?
Primary purpose? Guard poultry? Guard cattle? or all over the property? Is the rest of the property fenced?

What is you predator activity? IOW what kind, how many, how often, loss etc.

With the current dog what exactly are the issues and what corrections were made? How did you work with her?


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## Megs501 (Jan 27, 2017)

Pup will be 15 weeks old, male.  Primary purpose is to guard the entire property, but since they need "bonding" to something I thought the chickens would be best.  There are 29 chickens and 14 ducks right now.  2 cows, but we will have more cattle, hopefully dexters, and some goats, pigs, etc in the future.

COYOTES!  Hawks and owls are around, but never lost anything to them, Thora (2yo GP) pretty much takes care of that.  However, we have lost 10+ chickens to coyotes.  So, we moved the coop to the back yard, from behind the barn, where we can see.  Then saw a coyote walk the horse fence line 2 different time, right behind the coop.  (Shot at him once, didn't hit him, but haven't seen him since.)  The coyotes were bad last spring, that is when we lost the most, when the grasses get tall back behind the barn.  There is an 80 acre pasture next to us, lots of tall grasses and trees behind us.  We own 40 acres, with about 20 of that pasture, and 20 wooded with a creek. Thora roams all of that, at her own will, barking.  She brings up lost of carcasses, digs up and kills moles, squirrels, turkeys ... you name it she brings it up.

She is more bonded to people, which I guess we knew when we got her, as she wasn't working then, but came from working parents (not that it means much if the parents didn't teach her anything).  We have done the pick up put down method for her food. She isn't fed near anything (the cats eat in the shop near her, but up high in their own feeder, and they dont mess with her food).  The chickens are fed in their coop, the ducks are (now) fed in the barn behind a cattle panel that I dont think Thora can get through.  However, when we put treats in the chicken run, she will paw and pounce at the chickens.  As soon as I correct her she will run off, and come back.  If there is still food down, she will continue pouncing.

In the beginning of her training we did the leash, pick up put down, supervised her with the chickens.  Im trying to remember all the things we did ...
Oh- we could put her on a runner in the back yard (a big runner with access to shade and water) and she would let the chickens eat all around her.  Then when they went up for the night we could let her off and things would be fine.  She just wasn't ready to be with them unsupervised and "free."  I could be outside with her a lot, but if I couldn't she was on the runner while the chickens were out (did this as recommended from a trusted GP owner).  Then she started resenting the runner and as soon as she knew we were going to put her on there, she would run off barking.  That's when we noticed more problems start with her chasing the 600lb steers away from their food, running the ducks off from theirs.  Then she made contact with my 6yo over a stick.  I was right there, my daughter was going to get her for the runner, which has always been her job and THora has never had a problem with letting her do it.  And she snapped, made contact on my daughter's hand.  We think she had a stick she was chewing, but there was no animal, bone, or food there.  Anyway- husband says no way she can stay.  She is lucky to still be alive, honestly. =/  In the right home, she would be fine I think. And if it had been me or my husband she snapped at, maybe it would be different.  But you just don't keep a dog that bites your kid when nothing was out of the ordinary.  I would never have my daughter take something from Thora ...  anyway. I know she could have really hurt her if she wanted to, I mean she's a 100lbs dog.  But making contact and leaving indents is enough for us.  KWIM?  She's never been aggressive with US until that day, so we had no reason to believe she would snap at our daughter, so helps care for her.

I'm sure there were errors on our part in her training in the last year.  I've tried to make a conscious effort to be consistent, firm.  Her not being bonded to the animals isn't so bad, because we like that she protects the kids- makes EVERY move they make in the woods, doesnt let them get too close to the pond or creek without being right beside them, walk their steps on paths, etc.  we wouldn't rehome her except for the aggression towards my daughter.  That was what did it.  She makes a good "farm dog" as bonded to people.  She sleeps on the porch, is a great alarm, and patrols all night.  but we can't risk a dog biting one of our 4 children (all 6yo and under).  Our kids know how to respect animals, so I am not completely sure THora even had something like a stick she was chewing on.  i was right there, told my daughter she could put her on the runner like always.  Anyway- that's her story.  We don't know what her first year was like- she was free from a breeder because she had eye entropia.  We had her spayed, had her eyes fixed, and immediately started supervising her with the chickens on a leash.  I got over confident 2 xs with her and the chickens, both times she killed.  Not 100% if that was bad teenage year thing, or food aggression at that time.

We have barbed wire fencing surrounding the 40 acres.  i know that isn't enough to keep a GP in.  Thora has never had trouble with the boundaries.  Maybe that is rare?


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## Megs501 (Jan 27, 2017)

I should specify training wasn't jsut when we got her- we have continued it.  It wasn't until she became difficult to put on the runner or leash (which wasn't EVERY day, we weren't neglecting her.  maybe spoiling her too much..) that the more consistent training stopped because she wouldn't come all the time, only sometimes.  but she NEVER fought going on the runner or being led on the leash.  She was compliant, and seemed happy as she sleeps most of the day and patrols at night.  That's why when she snapped at our daughter it was a surprise.  SHe wasn't agitated or fighting...


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## Megs501 (Jan 27, 2017)

And thank you for any help with the puppy.  We want to be sure we do our part and are responsible from the beginning with how he is raised and what he is allowed to do.  We do want him to be more bonded to the animals this time around, but love and trust/respect us enough to protect the place and us, as well.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 27, 2017)

A couple of thoughts....

First - the behavior issues with the current dog have been developed by inappropriate training. 
I believe the behavioral aspect could easily be corrected. 
The runner line should not have been used and has caused some of the issues.

Although it is not acceptable for a dog to snap at their owner/family I suspect this was reactionary. Did she ever do this before or has she done this since.

This is important because the rule of thumb is if you could not train the first dog what makes you think you will succeed with another?
I *do not ask that harshly* it is just something to think about and thoroughly examine.
I understand you did not have her as a pup but the behaviors did not start when you brought her home they developed later.

Second- you are not utilizing the dog as a LGD. The way you intend is more of a farmdog not that of a LGD. The training and utilization as well as the relationship are different.

Third- the breeder you are getting the pup from... how do they evaluate and why do they think this particular pup is well matched for your environment?
What do they do for evaluation?

Reviewing your expectations is important.

Exactly what do you want the dog to do?

I suspect some of the issues with the dog you currently have are directly related to boredom and the fact she is an only dog. A few other behavioral issues as well but I won't go into this right now... maybe in a pm later 
Dogs are pack animals and honestly no one should ever have just one UNLESS that dog has been well evaluated and placed accordingly.
They work best in teams.


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## Megs501 (Jan 28, 2017)

We trained through the help of people in a particular forum for GPs.  I realize we probably didn't do everything correctly, but I am here trying to make sure we do this time.

Keeping Thora isn't an option at this time, since she got after our daughter (who has helped care for her from day one).  NO, Thora had never bitten before, and I am not sure what she was reacting to, because she had never done that before?

She is probably bored, since she bonded more to us than the animals. We have a springer spaniel and since day one she has only wanted to chase and do the prey thing with her.  So we try to not let them interact in that way; when Thora zones in on the Springer she will knock over anyone or anything in her way.  We have corrected her, but now try to avoid the playful interaction.  

I was told to not let a GP working dog play with other dogs?

I was also told that a GP would do fine by itself with a smaller herd to protect.  i DO want the dog to trust us, btu I do NOT want the dog to bond more closely with us than his charges.  So no, i don't want a family dog- we want him to belong to the animals, but trust us enough to leash him for the vet, brush him, and consider us his companions as well.  

I was told this is doable with the right interaction with him?  Which is why I am here, asking for help and making sure what I have been told is the opinion of more than the 2-3 people in a group that have given it to me.  But I am rather over whelmed with information, because everyone seems to have a different opinion of what we should do.  Which is fine- but I am trying to narrow it down, so we DONT make those same mistakes as before.

The breeder said a male would do better with chickens than females.  These pups were raised in a chicken yard with the parents and goats, and this particular puppy doesn't really mess with the chickens.  The one or two times he has, the mom took care of the behavior.  I observed him for a while- He seemed watchful and calm for a puppy, when he heard a commotion that he couldn't see from where he was (there were different areas to the yard) he would run to see what was going on- then promptly came back to his watching spot when he decided things were okay.  Anyway, that was just what I observed.

Can you help me with my questions regarding starting the puppy off right?  Where to house, how to interact with him?  Should I walk the perimeter of the property with him daily, or is that too much interaction?

I want him to be friendly and trustworthy with us, but i don't want him to bond to us ONLY, sleep on the porch, etc. I want him to stay with his charges near the coop and barn.

*Also, how do I stimulate his puppy energy without playing with him too much?  Can that be done by walking him around his future boundaries?*


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## Bruce (Jan 28, 2017)

I am a little confused. You posted:
_"Then she started resenting the runner and as soon as she knew we were going to put her on there, she would run off barking."_

Followed by:
_"That's when we noticed more problems start with her chasing the 600lb steers away from their food, running the ducks off from theirs. Then she made contact with my 6yo over a stick. I was right there, my daughter was going to get her for the runner, which has always been her job and THora has never had a problem with letting her do it."_

Following that you posted:
_"It wasn't until she became difficult to put on the runner or leash (which wasn't EVERY day, we weren't neglecting her. maybe spoiling her too much..) that the more consistent training stopped because she wouldn't come all the time, only sometimes. but she NEVER fought going on the runner or being led on the leash."_

This food thing didn't start until after you started tying her up? She became difficult to get on the runner or leash but NEVER fought going on the runner or leash? Is that not contradictory? And AFTER she became difficult to put on the runner you still asked a 6 Y/O to do it? No matter how smart or well bonded to Thora she is, a 6 Y/O isn't really old enough to catch the 'clues' that an adult would. Not that adults don't get caught unaware!

I am no LGD expert (not by a long shot) and I understand that the safety of your children is PARAMOUNT and not at all unreasonable but "one half-swing and you are out", especially considering the preceding quoted pieces, seems a bit too fast. I don't see how something similar couldn't happen with ANY dog of ANY breed you might have or get.

You will find references here that LGDs are smarter than we are. I will bet Thora knew your daughter was collecting her to go on the runner. She can read your body language in a way people likely can't. But that doesn't answer the question of why she put her mouth on your daughter's hand/arm.

With regard to where the dog sleeps, porch or out near the coop and barn:
I was out in the barn with Merlin a couple of nights just before I returned him (*). He could be asleep in the barn alley, in his chosen spot across from the chicken coop (converted horse stall), one minute and out at the west fence line in under 10 seconds after something I didn't hear. Going out required running 25' down the alley (including through a wood gate that keeps the alpacas in their end of the barn) turning right down a 4' wide x 10' long passage, out a door, turning left and 25' more to get behind the barn and another 100'+ to the west fence line. All I'm trying to say here is that if the dog chooses to sleep on the porch AND can get out to the animals when necessary, I don't think that is a problem. In fact it might be sleeping on the porch because that is where it feels it can BEST keep an eye/ear not only on the animals but also its people rather than because s/he would rather be with the people than the animals.

* Long story shortened, wife couldn't deal with him doing his job at night. She couldn't learn to ignore him barking.

Hopefully my comments have not offended, they are not meant to!


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## NH homesteader (Jan 28, 2017)

What is eye entropia? Does it cayse blindness? Any chance she has difficulty seeing and is part of why she snapped?

I know you aren't looking for people to help with her as you have already made your decision. But I think it's important to figure out what you could have done differently with her before knowing how to properly raise the next one.

I'm not trying to question your decision, but why do you feel you need a dog for your chickens? I personally would secure the chicken run. A dog, particularly a lone dog, can only bond with a chicken so much... Also most guardian dogs (I have never had a LGD but I have had more farm guardian type dogs) are not going to be happy on a runner. 

I have a 4 year old daughter and understand how you feel. It's scary to have an animal be aggressive with your child.


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## Megs501 (Jan 28, 2017)

No- the food thing didn't start after that.  She had always been food dominant, but we were mostly WITH her because we were able to put her on a leash or runner while feeding the other animals.  
That lasted nearly a year. 

Then more recently she started running off *most of the time, but not always *when she knew we were going to put her on the runner, or work with the leash (which was just me leashing her while we did my chores together .. and she always complied once on the leash).  
That is when we noticed she would run the cows/ducks off from their food, because we couldn't be right with her-since she wouldn't come for the leash ... make sense?  Sorry if I wasn't clear before.  

And no, I don't think I was being contradictory.  

Sometimes she would run off when we called her to be on the leash or runner. 
 but until more recently and even AFTER the running off behavior began, she would just let us clip the leash or runner right on- no fighting, as in pulling away, mouthing at me, physically fighting me about it. 

I don't consider running off before I even put my hand on her collar to be the same as fighting me about going on the runner or leash.  My point was- she may have said "hey- Im not coming near you because I dont want to be on the leash/runner, so I running off," But she has never pulled away, mouthed on us, or fought us once we were within a few feet of her to put her on the leash or runner.  She was submissive at that point.  She has never shown aggression to this point towards us in any way.  We brush her, pet her, the kids lay on her ...

And honestly, if the same thing happened with any other dog, my husband would have already put a bullet it in it.  He has no hesitation about shooting Thora.  I just feel like maybe she would have a better chance training in an environment without so many animals and kids, where she doesn't have the temptation and can better succeed.




Bruce said:


> I am a little confused. You posted:
> _"Then she started resenting the runner and as soon as she knew we were going to put her on there, she would run off barking."_
> 
> Followed by:
> ...


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## Megs501 (Jan 28, 2017)

NH homesteader said:


> What is eye entropia? Does it cayse blindness? Any chance she has difficulty seeing and is part of why she snapped?
> 
> I know you aren't looking for people to help with her as you have already made your decision. But I think it's important to figure out what you could have done differently with her before knowing how to properly raise the next one.
> 
> ...



Eye entropia is where the 3rd eye lid droops down (I think).  It has something to do with the eye lid; the vet makes a slit and stitches it.  I think she can see just fine?

We want a dog for the farm- but one that is more bonded to the animals than us.  We live in the middle of no where on 40 acres, my husband is out of town a LOT, we have 4 small children and want a dog that is outside patroling some, but also there to run off coyotes and coons from the chickens and cows. 

I just thought bonding it to the chickens would be best since there are lots of them and he could see them in the run all the time as a puppy.  The cows have 15+ acres they run around on and the puppy won't have access to that right away, so it might be hard for him to bond to that.  We plan to get more cattle, have calves, milk goats, etc and need a dog to keep them safe.  Since it can take years for them to be trusty worthy, we wanted to start now.


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## Latestarter (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm not an LGD expert. I own a 50/50 Pyr/Toli mix (my avatar) that I bought from a very experienced, reputable LGD owner with exceptional LGDs. My Mel was evaluated to be a 50/50 split between companion dog and LGD meaning he can do either equally well. I didn't have livestock when I got him so getting a pure LGD would have been foolish. He is just over 2 years old now and I was further delayed getting my livestock until this spring, at which time I will be training him to do his LGD job with goats. Mel is also more a watcher than a patroller LGD. So when I get a companion for him it will be a female and a patroller vice watcher. I think part of the issue here is you're trying to force the dog to do something that does not come naturally to the breed. Pyr's don't bond with birds, they bond with livestock (or with area as well... if they see it, they consider it their area to protect), more specifically goats/sheep, as they've been bred over thousands of years to do. It is the nature of the animal to also bond with the shepherd (you the owners) and as part of the job he/she will protect all your possessions along with the sheep/goats located within its area. Most LGDs will kill chickens when young until trained/broken from doing this. They (chickens) are excellent squeeky toys. Some LGD breeds are worse than others and it is dog specific as well.

It doesn't take years to make them trustworthy... The person I bought Mel from had 6 month old Pyr/Toli mix (Mel's siblings) pups working as full time LGDs with her goats. Her alpha LGD with the pups was only 18 months old and had been the primary LGD for almost a year. It takes proper handling and training and an understanding of what an LGD is and does, and how. They are extremely intelligent and very independent. They have a job to do and when you place the dog on a runner line or on a leash, you're stopping the dog from being able to do what they've been bred to do. How can the dog protect and drive off a threat if tied to a tree/runner? You have to treat the dog like a partner and work with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with bonding with the dog and the dog bonding with you and the family. Why would you want a dog that didn't recognize you and your family as part of it's pack? You SHOULD be the alpha in that pack or you run the risk of the dog not allowing you to work with an injured animal or assisting your animals during birthing etc. It sounds to me like you have shown and demonstrated to the dog that you don't trust her, and therefore she doesn't trust you. Since she doesn't trust you, she will not respect you and not allow you to be alpha. What you are "wanting" and trying to train this dog to do is confusing it in a major way.

It sounds to me like what you really need is a farm dog to keep the area right around the house and chicken coop secure. Your/the LGD should be out with the livestock in the area he/she is assigned to protect and should be enclosed within that area by secure fencing. Other dogs should not be allowed in this area as doing so might cause the LGD to understand that it's OK with you for other dogs to enter which could cause problems with strays. The LGD should also be given time off and allowed to come out of his/her area and be at the house with the family and other dogs for a break and some loving/attention/play time. Most LGDs work best as a team, rather than by themselves. If you have a high predator load, a single LGD can get very stressed out and overworked trying to do the job. 

The first priority should be good fencing... this to keep your animals in and to keep bad animals out. I can't provide answers as to how to "undo" the problems that your current LGD has. I believe that if you get another LGD you will end up with the same results if you try to do the same things you've done with the present one.


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## NH homesteader (Jan 28, 2017)

I assume no medical issues that could be causing her behavior? Worms or anything?

I think it's good for a guardian dog to be bonded to you. A good farm dog will protect your animals because they are yours, and protect your property as well.


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## frustratedearthmother (Jan 28, 2017)

EYELID ENTROPIAN: _Entropion_ is an abnormality of the eyelids in which the eyelid "rolls" inward. This inward rolling often causes the hair on the surface of the eyelid to rub against the cornea (outer part of the eyeball) resulting in pain, corneal ulcers or corneal erosions. This corneal damage can also result in corneal scarring, that can interfere with vision.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/eyelid-entropion-in-dogs

Certainly not a comfortable condition and without treatment can cause permanent damage.  OUCH!


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## Baymule (Jan 28, 2017)

You said that you have a barb wire fence. And you acknowledged that it will not hold your LGD in. I suggest that before you get another dog, that you put up the fence that will hold in, not only the dog, but goats and other livestock as well. I had Great Pyrenees before I got sheep. There was a HUGE learning curve, that was a year ago and we are still working on it. You might do better to build the fence and shelter first, get a few goats, then get a LGD to train to the goats. Kinda hard to train a dog to something that isn't even there, believe me, I know first hand.

I appreciate that you want to do things right, please don't take our advice as criticism.

I also have chickens. My GP's don't bond to the chickens, but they protect them as part of "their territory". The chickens live on "their" farm, thus they enjoy the protection of the dogs, but the dogs never show interest in them. The dogs will lick the sheep and lambs and show them attention. Our male GP isn't so bonded to the sheep, he would rather hang out in the yard. At night, we close up the sheep and open the gate to the front pasture so he can patrol the yard and pasture. This makes him happy.


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## dejavoodoo114 (Feb 5, 2017)

So, how have things gone? Everyone has different set ups for their farm and so different solutions work. It is nice to have so many wonderful opinions. What did you decide would work best for you?


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