# copper deficiency??



## Hollywood Goats (Dec 9, 2010)

My goats are eating (rationed according to the instructions on the bag) Purina goat chow and free choice coastal hay and minerals, yet one of my Does has reddish on her legs and spine, I read that is caused by a copper deficiency, but how could they not have enough copper! 

The goat chow has 39 to 42 PPM, and the mineral lick is for goat, I don't remember how much copper there is in it.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 9, 2010)

Never ran into it..were it was obvious to me and had to adress.  But I thought it was a complete loss of pigmant.  Hair loss..lesions etc???  

I would goggle it and read more on it...I hope its not that!! Sounds like you feeding well???


----------



## helmstead (Dec 9, 2010)

Goat feed will NEVER contain enough copper, rarely will minerals cover it.  In most parts of the US and Canada...if you don't bolus - your herd is probably deficient.

In GA I had to bolus every 6 mos.  Here in Indiana, I'm looking at more like every 8-10, copper levels are higher in the soils and therefore higher in the hay we grow.

Also, there are MANY factors that play into copper ABSORPTION.  Several minerals actually inhibit it, so even if the goat were eating enough, they might not be absorbing enough, and therefore need bolusing (more in the stomachs = more available to absorb).


----------



## helmstead (Dec 9, 2010)

Emmetts Dairy said:
			
		

> But I thought it was a complete loss of pigmant.  Hair loss..lesions etc???


FYI - nope, it's not a complete loss of pigment, it's a reddening of dark pigments.  Also, low conception rates, higher worm loads...the list goes on and on.

Hair loss and lesions are associated with selenium deficiency...


----------



## Hollywood Goats (Dec 9, 2010)

It is not hair loss at all, she has thick shiny black hair and no lesions on her skin.

My other goat does not have any reddish, only her.

I am feeding minerals for goats.

Thanks for your help!

ETA: it is not a ton of reddish, just a bit on her legs and a bit along her spine.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 9, 2010)

Not all goats have the same copper needs.  I've found especially deficiency runs in certain bloodlines - some are more sensitive than others.  So, perhaps your one doe is more sensitive than the others...

But...

By the time you're seeing color changes and fish tails, the deficiency is pretty bad.

Search here about goat minerals.  Cmjust0 for one, has posted a lot of really good information about their copper content.  Either way, many times...minerals are not enough.


----------



## Hollywood Goats (Dec 9, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Not all goats have the same copper needs.  I've found especially deficiency runs in certain bloodlines - some are more sensitive than others.  So, perhaps your one doe is more sensitive than the others...
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


What could I do if minerals are not enough? 

I got her when she was a kid, she was all black then, now she has some white spots and some reddish, could it just be hair color? her father has some reddish hair, but it is quite possible that he is copper deficient also (the owner doesn't give any minerals)

Thank you I will look!


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 9, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Emmetts Dairy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good to know...I better read up on copper issues.      Thanks! 

I know alot of the riverbeds in NH has a good amount of copper in the sediment I just happen to read that.   So Iwould think we have decent amount in soils??


----------



## helmstead (Dec 9, 2010)

As I've said, just because the soil is higher in copper, that might not be enough.  Fertilized hay fields, for instance, can contain too much molybdenum, which inhibits copper absorption.  There are SO many factors.  Drought, flood...heat, cold.  All affects how much copper gets into the available food supply.

The white spots...that's probably just roaning.  The reddish tones though, as you describe...are in the classic areas for copper deficiency.

What can you do?  Bolus.  Search here for 'copper bolus', there should be plenty of threads about it.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 10, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> As I've said, just because the soil is higher in copper, that might not be enough.  Fertilized hay fields, for instance, can contain too much molybdenum, which inhibits copper absorption.  There are SO many factors.  Drought, flood...heat, cold.  All affects how much copper gets into the available food supply.


Thank you for motivating my search on copper deficiency.   

Thankfully, I have not run into any of the noted signs or problems showing a copper deficiency.  So hopefully we are doing something right!!  

But it is very interesting information.  I briefly reviewed this in the past..and kinda thought it not to be of great issue for my guys cause everyone is very healthy and happy.  And we try very hard to give them the best balanced diet we can. And free choice loose minerals always.  

But your absolutley right on the many factors that can make the copper unabsorbable in goats etc...sulfur and iron etc...and on and on...

Amazing...thanks again...well worth the read for sure!!


----------



## Roll farms (Dec 10, 2010)

Our hard water is the worst problem we have....high iron content.

I read an article in goat rancher about drenching w/ copper sulfate.  
(Both to up copper levels when needed and as a dewormer for barberpole).

I intend to try it out...I'll keep y'all posted.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Dec 10, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Our hard water is the worst problem we have....high iron content.
> 
> I read an article in goat rancher about drenching w/ copper sulfate.
> (Both to up copper levels when needed and as a dewormer for barberpole).
> ...


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 10, 2010)

Thats what was spinning thru my head when I was reading.  Cuz we too have a high iron content.  And the iron binds to the copper so its not absorb...Its really enlightening to me.  

Learn something new everyday.  Apparently the loose minerals may not be enough.  

I think Im gonna follow that trend and dress it as well. I think I will ask about blood test and get that done...since its my first venture with anything extra above minerals...dont want to over load them either.  As we know with goat..balance is good!!   

Our goats will be so healthy!! They'll be shinin like a lincoln penny!!!


----------



## Hollywood Goats (Dec 10, 2010)

a week after we got her reddish hair starting showing, so I got her a mineral block and then realized that it was for sheep and goats, no copper  so I gave her more minerals, I looked closely at her hair, only the tips are reddish now, not any new hairs, so how long would it take for the hair to go back to the normal color or does it eventually shed and grow back normal?

I got the right minerals about 7 months ago, I have had her for about 8 months.

Thank you! 

Interesting about hard water, we have hard water here also and lots of clay in the soil, I will have to look into that.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 10, 2010)

Drenching with copper sulfate is not nearly as safe as using copper oxide rods...be careful.

Also...the blood test will only tell you about CIRCULATING levels of copper.  Copper is stored in the liver.  The only ACCURATE test is a liver biopsy.  Yeah...yikes.

When I copper bolus a goat who is obviously deficient (reddened hair, fish tail, rough coat) I can see a dramatic difference in 30 days.  They tend to blow their coat immediately and change color.  When I first realized I had copper issues...and bolused a test group from my herd...it was so enlightening.  Hard keepers conditioned back up, and the hair coats became soft and luxurious...and my kidding numbers came up (copper, I have learned, also affects ovulation).

The fish tail can take awhile to correct though.


----------



## Hollywood Goats (Dec 10, 2010)

fish tail is when the tail hairs separate making it look like a fish's tail right? I googled and just came up with Goatfish! 
If that is what it is, than she never had fish tail.

The rest of her hair is shiny and soft now, she does not have any coarse red hairs growing in now. 

Thank you so much! I tried google-ing and didn't come up with much because of key words.


----------



## Emmetts Dairy (Dec 10, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Drenching with copper sulfate is not nearly as safe as using copper oxide rods...be careful.
> 
> Also...the blood test will only tell you about CIRCULATING levels of copper.  Copper is stored in the liver.  The only ACCURATE test is a liver biopsy.  Yeah...yikes.
> 
> ...


Thanks...I read that about the ovulation! Interesting.  I dont think I will do the liver biopsy on them!!     Ill Pass on that then!!  A bit overkill!! When my guys are healthy...If it was a simple blood test..than sure..but I wont do it unless absolutley necessary.  

I have no fish tails...and no obvious issues.  Maybe I will try copper bolus first. Sounds like the wiser and safer method.      Thanks for the info!


----------



## PJisaMom (Dec 10, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Our hard water is the worst problem we have....high iron content.


Interesting... in the summer, I use the hose outside (no filter, no softener) for water and my boy with the black back legs started turning reddish... now that winter is here, I am hauling buckets of water from inside the house (which means it's "soft" from the softener and filtered).  So, thinking out loud... that might make a difference?  

Bolused him with copasure this morning anyway; so I guess we'll see!


----------



## aggieterpkatie (Dec 10, 2010)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Drenching with copper sulfate is not nearly as safe as using copper oxide rods...be careful.


I've read that accidental copper sulfate in the lungs can cause shock and death, and most of the copper (90%) is rapidly excreted.


----------



## helmstead (Dec 10, 2010)

Here is a link with some photos of symptoms...
http://u-sayranch.com/main/2010/01/remedying-copper-deficiency-with-copasure-bolus/


----------



## Roll farms (Dec 10, 2010)

I've been giving copper sulfate for a couple of years, the difference is NOW I have a guideline to go by (because of the article) instead of just 'guessing' what amount to use.
Previously I was adding it to the drinking water 1x a month.

Long story short, a friend of mine in MI told me "I cleared our copper deficiency problems up w/ copper sulfate."  So I tried it.

I can definitely see a difference / improvement.

I'm interested to see what effect it has on HC loads when drenched.  According to the article I read, it can reduce up to 70% of the worm load.

Not saying it's THE way, or even a GOOD way.  And I'm definitely not advocating it's use....just throwing it out there for informational purposes.  
But if folks didn't try new things / methods and see how it goes, we'd never get anywhere.


----------



## ksalvagno (Dec 10, 2010)

I think it is great that you are trying it out and letting us know. We need to find other alternatives to Ivomec and Safeguard, etc. I really think we are going to have to get more and more creative and try more and more new things.


----------



## poorboys (Dec 10, 2010)

where do you get your copper bolus from??? can you buy it already to use? thanks


----------



## helmstead (Dec 10, 2010)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> But if folks didn't try new things / methods and see how it goes, we'd never get anywhere.


Absolutely true!


----------

