# STARTING OUT WITH DORPERS. An Aussie experience.



## The Old Ram-Australia (Dec 29, 2018)

Dorpers (and other Hair Breeds) are “smarter than Merinos, but not as smart as Goats”.

The above is the “stand out” lesson after our first year raising, breeding and selling these breeds.

Last Oct 12 months ago we made the decision to sell after almost 20 years of breeding and selection our flock of English Suffolk’s and move to a breeding program involving all the breeds at our disposal to produce an animal which fitted our landscape and environment. The change was “driven “by the fact at 75, shearing the flock was becoming a chore that was getting beyond me and so began another “steep” learning curve, but after 20 years breeding Goats and another 20 breeding  a meat based short wool flock  surely it could not be “that hard”.

We considered our current fencing would be more that capable of holding the new flock, this was our “first mistake”. We purchased lines wherever possible from both private and auction yard sellers to achieve as large as possible gene pool from which to start. The sheep were introduced to our farm during the longest “dry spell” since the “big dry” of the 2000’s.This extended “dry” tested the strength of the genetics an d resulted in losses of about 20% ,but for the rest I feel we have an excellent base from which to go forward.

During the “learning “ period of the last 12 months several issues have surfaced which I will endeavor to detail and how we overcame the challenges they presented.

Myths and Reality’s: Hair Breeds don’t get worm’s .Yes they do, but their impact is a result of poor management decisions and the overuse and abuse of drenching agents. It’s worth noting that Dorpers “hate” the drench gun and will put up a good fight, so the least often you have to do it the better.

Hair Breeds don’t get “fly strike”. Flystrike control is determined by the “degree” of shedding and the timing. If you are starting from a “wool base” it will be several generations before you have sufficient shedding to minimize the risk because even in some well bred lines if they carry a “woolly top line” hip, shoulder and middle of the back strikes can occur if the weather favors the “flies”.

Foot trimming: My advice is get a “cradle” to make the job easier on both stock and operator. Unless you wish to be a stud (which we have “no desire to do”) introduce “Black Feet genes” from other breds if necessary. Avoid wet /damp country to run them on. Select against it when selecting young ewe lines.

Fencing: I have left the best to last. The best story I have heard so far goes like this.”Build your fence as strong as you can, when it’s finished get a bucket of water and throw it at the fence if the “water” goes through it so will the Dorpers.”……..

When our first Dorpers arrived we had all manner of problems keeping them on our place they are “not jumpers” but will seek out any hollow they can and go under or through the bottom two wires. What I discovered with our lot was they carefully observed where the kangaroos left the paddock and just followed them out .They have tremendous strength in their neck and shoulders to assist them in their escape. The thing is that most of these breeds evolved in harsh, dry and open rangelands where they were looked after by Sheppard’s and usually yarded at night to protect them from predators. My own feeling is that it will take several generations behind “secure wire” to change their inherited behavior.

In the last 12 months we have experimented with lots of variations when it comes to fencing. Generally speaking if you are in Kangaroo/Wombat country you can forget mesh (unless you are using dog exclusion type) because Wombats will dig holes large enough under the fence to allow Kangaroos to enlarge them and the sheep will follow. We now have several variations which the sheep seem to consider “not worth the trouble/effort to try to get through.

The first consideration is “how visible is the fence”? Let’s say you have the old 4 plains and 3 barbs setup, which is common on lots of farms. Generally speaking it will struggle to hold X-breds let alone Hair breeds, so if you opt for 
mesh fencing of say 8-90-30 plus 2 barbs on top on the mesh and you run a top, middle and bottom plain wire. That is the equivalent of 13 wires. Here is what we have done, get rid of all the wooden posts which are usually set at 1 chain or every 6th steel post, if you have to replace end sections “do not use wooden ones”. I suggest you use the Waratah strainer steel ones of 2.4 and drive them so the “lugs” are under the ground. You can get cheap stays from steel merchants; just get them to “squash” the end for you. Use a hardwood block set into the ground so the strainer does not move under the strain.

Drive your “star posts” (commonly called” y “posts in some instances) so the first hole is at ground level. The next step is the most “important one, thread the wires “through” the holes tie off at each end of the strain and strain in the middle of the run (now unless you are a fencer  for a living)use a gauge to tell you what the strain is on our it measures kilos of tension per meter I like about at least 150 k per m. Now there will be those who will say that this is not correct, but in our situation where a 60/70 kg strikes the fence at speed if the wires are tied of at each star post “guess” what happens the star post either side of the strike absorbs the impact which not only knocks the post out of alignment but “stretchers “the wire as well. In our example all of the impact is transferred along the wire and the impact is absorbed by the strainer posts and stay at the end of the strain.

Currently I use an average of 10 wires starting from the bottom run a wire every hole for the first 6 and then every second hole. In most situations the wildlife will “clear the fence without catching a leg in the top two wires, if you have an animal which manages to “jump over the fence” the next jump should be into the :freezer”. Recently in a boundary situation where we had a 4 plain 3 barb I added 2 barbs to the space between the bottom wires and this seemed to correct the situation. Much of our boundary and internal fences the land is undulating and so it is necessary to “tie down” stars using half a star driven in at an angle and secured with a wire loop.

We have received really good rain through December and with the current "hot spell" we have lots of a very diverse forage on offer for the sheep although in as many paddocks as I can manage I am letting all of the grasses flower and seed to replace a "depleted seed bank".At this stage I am looking at a March joining for an August lambing which should be the "tail-end" of Winter.BTW ,i have decided to keep the top line of Suffolk lambs from last year and will join them to the Van Rooy rams we purchased earlier....T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Dec 29, 2018)

It sure sounds like you and Jenny have been having more than your share of fun. Wombats and kangaroos! LOL The only thing I've had dig under my fence was a stray dog (trapped by the county and taken away) and a armadillo. Hardly big enough holes for the sheep to belly flop through. 

I am glad that my sheep are not as smart as goats. The last thing I want is some smart a$$ sheep out there, up all night plotting against me.


----------



## Latestarter (Dec 31, 2018)

Now see, I must have lucked out because my goats have pretty much stayed put where I want them. Of course when they were babies, they were able to fit through holes and gaps and went walk about a time or two, but still being babies, never went far from where mom was. So you're a year in TOR, and have found the biggest issues and addressed them... How does you decision to swap over sit with you now? Obviously you're proceeding, but is it because there's no choice at this point, or because the challenge/adventure still calls your attention?


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 1, 2019)

Thank you LS for your thoughts.Before we had the sheep for many years (about 20) we had goats ,first it was Angoras,then Dairy and we finished up with Meat which were a project using "improved Feral s X Dairy does" as our aim was the Prime Kid market and in the end we were producing kids weighing 20 kgs live-weight at 12 weeks of age.They were raised on as much milk as we could get them to drink along with hay/grain.At that time we were on 25 acs and had a LGB to look after them ,but when we moved to the new farm area we sold them as it was way to "cold" in the winter and we were a long way from our market at the time.

The main challenge for the new sheep flock is actually adapting them to not only our country ,feed and style of management but to get them all to blend together to form a homogeneous group which will over time generate the knowledge necessary to ensure the flock into the future can "cope" with the challenges that the new environment will present.It will take at least two "new" generations for this to develop and to assist in this development we never wean our next generation of females and only retain 50% each joining based on the type,structure and traits we want to developed in the finished composite.

The change was driven by several factors,the old flock was getting beyond me when it came to shearing and in reality we could not advance much further with the developed type of the English Suffolk's we had.At our age you are limited in the time and the energy you have at your disposal along with the other constraints that you are aware of.

It has been my practice over many years that as we approach years end i take some time to "reflect" on the past year and set some goals for the coming one and it was in reflecting the past that i decided to commit my thoughts and experiences to text and post it in the hope it could benifiet others in the group in the future.I do see the need to be engaged at a mental level to maintain active brain function and the new project will certainly achieve this in my view.......T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 1, 2019)

You have a lifetime of farming, I was a wanna-be. Finally we retired and I get to play and live my dream. We are on 8 acres, hardly enough to make a profit, much less a living, but I am totally there with you on the hair sheep and shearing. I am 63, husband is 73. Hair sheep are fairly easy, but then we only have 9 ewes and a ram, nothing near the flock you have. I like your idea of reflecting on the past year and planning the upcoming year. 

May 2019 be kind to you.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jan 2, 2019)

I agree on the shearing problems as we get older.  We have had Dorsets, Hamps, Suffolks, and market crosses in the past 30 years.  We started with dairy goats, extended into Boers, and the sheep.  Never a huge flock of seep but upwards of 50 breeding goats and sheep combined at one time.  Shearing was not hard when I was young, and our ewes were halter broke.  I just put the ewes in the stand, and sheared 3-4 per day in the spring.  Then before lambing I put the ewes back into the stand and breached them.  Easy Peasy!  30 years later our sheep are field sheep, not halter broke or tame.  The goats are all sold.  We keep the sheep to clear all the grass and brush and provide meat for our freezer and a couple to sell.  I was hiring a shearer.  The price was not too bad at first for our area - $25 a head - and we started back with just 4 sheep, then 6, etc.  By the time we were up to a very small flock of 12 Dorsets, the price had gone to $40 per head and $50 for the ram.  I decided to switch to White Dorpers.  They are easier to handle than the black headed Dorpers, and I bought clean shedders.  This year was a breeze.  I had 2 remaining Dorsets that I paid to have shorn, a nd the rest went to the auction.  My 5 new Dorpers shed out clean.  I don't have trouble keeping them inside fences but don't have wombats or kangaroos either.  My LGDs keep the coyotes away.

Are your Dorpers the black headed variety?  I was told that the black headed variety (original) Dorpers were flightier and less docile.  We have the white Dorpers.  Mine seem to be very tractable, coming up to be petted even though they were raised in a field  situation.  I have noticed that the Dorpers are somewhat smaller than our Dorsets - even without their wool - and eat less but their lambs seem to be just as large and grow very well.  I keep weight records on my lambs each year and will be comparing their growth rates to the past Dorset records this year.  I have noticed that the Dorper lambs have thicker legs, seem to be longer through the loin area, and carry more meat overall.  Our Dorsets were very meaty animals with a shorter leg (no meat below the knee!  lol).  I am hoping this will translate into more meat on a smaller boned carcass.  I raised my Dorset lambs in a creep situation am and pm (out during the day on pasture and in at night) instead of on straight pasture, since our pasture is very poor and this year non-existant.  We are in southern California and have been in  drought for several years now.  Our Dorset lambs reached 100 lbs. (slaughter weight) by 4 months old.  I am hoping the Dorper lambs will do the same.  The Dorpers seem to eat less and require a less protein rich ration than the Dorsets did.  I am interested to see the comparison weights this year.

However, I congratulate you on switching from a wool breed to a shedding breed.  We dock all our sheep for prevention of fly strike even though some Dorper breeders don't.  If I were selling live by the hundredweight, I would leave more than 2" on the dock though!  LOL  My sales are private treaty by the head so I dock between 1" and 2". 

Why did you decide to keep some of your Suffolks in your breeding program?  I am really interested in your reasons since you will not have a complete shed Dorper wool on the crosses.  I have a DorperxDorset ewe lamb I was considering keeping, but don't want the shearing again.  I am wondering if you have a particular reason for keeping the Suffolks and breeding them back into your Dorpers.  I will be purchasing a couple more yearling or lamb Dorper ewes this year, after selling my last Dorset ewes. 

Interested in your breeding program.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 3, 2019)

G'day and thank you Ridgetop for your reply.your story is an interesting  one.When the Boers first came to Aussie(an interesting tale in itself,which I may relate to the group at a later time) their was much excitement in the Goat industry much like when we first got the genetics for Mohair goats from Texas and South Africa (another interesting tale of how the the Aussie fiber clip was degraded).At the time we were in the goat meat "game" and we watched with more than passing interest as the Boer X's started to filter through the sales.Because we had been at it for years we were well acquainted with many of the ethnic wholesalers and the reports of dis-satisfaction from their consumers soon surfaced and they revolved around the way the kids were being fed in the main.The Boer x's were on mainly quite high protein diets and this caused the kids to lay down internal fat which defeated the notion of a "low fat" meat.We were breeding an animal for not only domestic Aussies but the Mediterranean and Indian sub continent peoples in Aussie.These markets require a "low fat" product as this is what their homeland and cooking methods require.The majority of the Goat meat exports out of Aussie are sourced from the "wild,feral bands" that roam the Outback,the industry has tried to push the name of Rangeland Goat Meat but everyone down here knows exalty what it is.

Your 100 lbs at 4 months was I expect  "liveweight" about 20kg dressed wgt? So how big would you say the "fat trim' was ,were you killing at home and if so what was the fat trim internally like? You are right about the differences in the B H v/s the W H Dorpers,but the W H are quick to learn the tricks of the others when it comes to escaping (it is worth noting that some of our paddocks exceed 40 acs in size).It has been our experience that the Hair breeds produce a lot "denser body" when compared to the British Shortwools,so in the situation of two lambs the same size the Dorpers will generally speaking" hang heavier".Even in the short time we have had the Hair breeds we have noted like you the feed needs are not so demanding and I think over time and with careful prodigy selection they will in fact produce more from less .We have opted for "no tail docking" because in the main we do not experience "breech strike" in the Hair breeds.

The decision to infuse some of our Suffolk genetics is that over almost 20 years we have produced a very "high" level of worm resistance and sheep that handle very well with the help of my dogs at this point my aim is to join the Suffolk ewes (2 tooth) to the Van Rooy rams and keep the ewe portion which shows the least wool in the first X ,this group will be run in parallel with the hair groups of which there will be several the next X could well be to the Australian White.The main group will be the "best shedders and true to type" made up of the W H's and the Wiltipols who will go to an Australian White ram.The next group will be the commercial ewes and the B H's which in the first instance will be joined to the Wiltipol rams.I am also trying to obtain a line of Van Rooy ewes to add to the program who will be joined to the W H Dorper rams.In each case the max retention rate will be below 50% of the ewe drop.The next introduction will be a line of Speckled Persians consisting of a "very good ram" and a line of about 10 ewes.Selection and joining is programmed to be end of Feb for an early Sep lambing.I am looking at a terminal flock of about 150 breeders plus replacements.

On the shearing front when I "retired" the old flock I was shearing 25/30 in a 4 hour run so I could "press the wool" and return the ewe "drenched" back to the feed and the next days lot yarded ready for in the morning.

As usual I am happy to "field" any questions you may have and from time to time I will update how its all progressing..................T.O.R.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jan 3, 2019)

Thanks for posting this explanation and layout of your breeding program. 

The reasons you lay out for keeping back your Suffolk breeding stock and putting them into the bloodlines you are currently working with makes a lot of sense.  I am not sure where you are located in Australia but I know that much of your country is rather like the desert areas of our southwest.  If you are located in an area where you require a lot of range to support the flock, there is no point in switching to Dorpers to avoid shearing if you can't round the flocks up with your dogs.  Our sheep do not seem to want to escape from any fences.  They are pretty well trained to follow a grain bucket into their enclosures.  On the other hand, we have a tiny flock of sheep which we see individually every day am and pm.  That might be the reason since they are not true range sheep. 

It seems like you are actually working on producing a cross bred flock of animals with the traits you want as opposed to straight Dorper, WD, or short wool breeds.  I think this is smart since the background of all breeds is based on what the shepherds in certain topographic and ethnic areas wanted.  There is no "natural" breed of livestock anymore, all have been tweaked by man into what will work for them over centuries of husbandry.

Yes, you are right, the 100 lb. at 4 months is live weight.  Hanging weight is about half that.  Our butcher likes the carcass quality and has not said that the lambs were too fatty so I believe that they must be ok.  I have not noticed an over abundance of fat on the ones we eat either.  I do like some fat on my meat for tenderness though. 

I creep our lambs since we have very little natural forage unless we get a rainy season during the winter.  I started doing this 4-5 years ago.  Our lambs were extremely small that year and I was very unhappy with their size and weight.  The previous year we had not had any problem finishing them out on pasture, but the next year we did not have a lot of forage and the lamb finished about 20-30 lbs. under what I expected.  Our last year with forage was 3 years ago.  We carry feed our tiny flock and they receive hay in the pm when they come back into the barn or fold.  We have had sheep all the time the kids were growing up, and kept several breeds and crosses for meat sale and exhibition.  After the children left home and we had sold our livestock except the horses and mule, we brought sheep back on our property because of the high fire danger in our area.  We have to clear 200' from all structures, and the property os very steep.  We bought Dorsets since we like the smaller size, meat yield, and temperament. We are switching over to Dorpers because the shearing is costly and I cannot do it myself anymore.   Last December there were 2 fires on either side of us.   The Creek fire was in December and traveled at 80 mph driven by 80-90 mph winds.  It took out homes and corrals before the homeowners could evacuate.  Horses burned to death in their stalls because the fire jumped so fast.  The fire hit our area and came across the wash jumping the freeway, and multiple roads.  When I say it jumped, it leapt over areas of rock that should have slowed the burn and hit patches of dry brush up 100's of feet away.  The fire swept over the mountain behind our home, and hit the back gully behind us.  In seconds it was leaping into our pastures driven by the winds.  Our son had hoses going to wet down our house and barns, but the winds blew the water away.   Luckily, due to our sheep there was nothing to burn in the pastures.  The fire department staged their fight on our fields and were able to keep the flames from our barns and house.  The fire ran along the edge of our fences and travelled around us.   Over the past years, others had made fun of us for keeping our sheep when we were retired and they required work.  After the Creek fire, no one laughs at us any more.   Our sheep keep our land clean grazed for fire protection, and we eat well and have a few lambs to sell private treaty.  The cost of hiring workers to clear our land vs the cost of feeding the sheep is similar, but we enjoy the sheep.

I creep feed my lambs because they can't get enough nutrients from grazing the minimal forage that our land produces without rain.  They also have to be creep fed to avoid competition with the ewes.   If I did not creep feed it would take another several months to get the lambs to 100 lb. live weight for sale.  It is cheaper for  me to creep feed them and save three months feed costs.  Once the lambs are gone, the ewes are taken off grain until I flush them.  This year, we have stopped feeding the high protein and fat grower ration that we had been using on our Dorsets, and switched to a rolled barley and barleycorn mix.  It is much lower in protein and fat, and certainly much less expensive.  We also have cut back on the amount of hay we needed to feed the Dorsets.  Here in California our most common hay is alfalfa which is a high protein legume hay.  We feed only abut a cup of grain to the ewes each day to get them to come into the night fold.  We have 2 excellent livestock guardian dogs, but we have a high predator load.  Since the fires and with the drought it has been even worse.

Anyway, the lambs are creep fed on alfalfa and barley/barleycorn.  They are almost old enough to go out on the field with their mums.  They will come in at night to the pen with the creep.  We weigh every week to make sure they are gaining.  We don't have many, since I am switching over to Dorpers, and also because I have cut back due to the drought

I am really interested in hearing your continuing successes and failures in this new breeding adventure.  I really think we learn as much from our failures as we do from our successes.  At least I have.  I hope you will continue posting about your breeding program.  I think you are well on the way to a new strain that will have the benefits you want without the problems you have discussed.   

Please keep posting about your plans.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 3, 2019)

In an effort to provide some context i will describe the area where we farm.We are at 760 mts ASL,about 12 kms (as the crow flies) from the historic village of Braidwood NSW. Our district was know in the past as a safe 36 in rainfall (but more about that later).Our farm or "rolling countryside "with cleared "bottom land" and in the main woodland tops.The ratio of cleared to woodland is about 65/35 but most of our woodland supports quite a lot of grazing in the main.The two photos show our extremes,thankfully we do not get them in one year.There is a few other pic's somewhere that show how we hold our snow-melt in the swales until the ground can absorb the weight of the melt.

Since the 1950's our rainfall has changed by 180 deg,where once we had a Fall break and Winter rain we now rely on East-coast lows and Summer storms.Climate change /Global warming has created a rain shadow across our part of the district and our winter rain has been hijacked by Snowy Hydro for the tourists and for irrigation water and electricity supply via "cloud seeding" at every opportunity in the colder months. But when we have a "good season it can be great" and next time I will post a few more pic's.....T.O.R.


----------



## Mike CHS (Jan 3, 2019)

I'm always amazed at what you folks in Australia have to work with.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jan 3, 2019)

Looks dry so I can see why you need a sheep that can survive on less forage.  most of the sheep breeds originally were grazed on nice green grassy pastures.  More like New Zealand?  Dry pastures are harsh but by breeding hardy sheep that can forage well on less, you can make it work.  You are certainly figuring it out.  We are dry too, but haven't any graze because of the drought.  Thought we were going to have an El Nino year for a while, but only a couple days of rain.  Still dry and brown.
 
This is our land after good rains - You can see the dry grasses and forage.  However, the photos below show our land now without rain.  This is why shepherds used to travel looking for grazing for their stock.  Of course this dry dirt inside our fece line is what saved us from the Creek fire.

The picture below shows some stuff below the fence line on the front of the property, very steep and mostly brush.  Good coyote cover, which is why we need more livestock guardians.

On the other hand, amazing sunsets and beautiful view.  I suppose I can carry feed a while longer!  LOL 
 

What is your predator load?  Mostly wild dingoes?  Do you need livestock guardian dogs or do you have much in the way of predator losses?


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 4, 2019)

OMG, that looks a "hard" bit of country,are your dogs Anatolian? It would be interesting to see the land in a "good season"?

In our district the main predictor is the Red Fox,the Dingos are further west in the main although a neighbor once said that there had been a sighting in the National Park to the East of us years ago.
We fix the foxes with 1080,because I am to "old" now to be out in the frost in the winter with the rifle.
In the first pic is that a wild fire in the distance?Is all your fencing 6 ft chain-wire?......T.O.R.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jan 4, 2019)

Actually, I think that _is_ one of the fires we had before Christmas.  I believe it was the one that ran through Ventura down to the coast at Malibu.  It had just started and I got a photo of it.  I posted it just thinking it was a good shot of the valley with clouds.  By the next day, there was no visibility at all due to the smoke.  From our hill top we keep a close eye out for fires.   They are common here, destructive, and terrifying.  After they are put out, the destruction does not end - when the rains come we have massive mudslides where the ground cover has all burned off leaving bare soil on the hills. 

This is semi-desert type terrain.  When we get enough rain the forage and grass comes up beautifully.  Some years it has grown to the height of a man's chest.   That was in the El Nino years.  Haven't had many of those in a while.  The grass is just annual, not year round, and the grazing is the sort that the sheep and goats have to keep moving through to get a complete diet.  As soon as the rains stop and the sun comes out for more than 2 weeks, the grass starts to die to brown.  It is still good grazing but not as nutritious which is why we give our sheep a night time feed of alfalfa in the barn or night fold.  The last year of good forage (and rain) was about 2 summers ago.  The lambs couldn't be seen through it unless they jumped up in the air and you caught sight of them!  They would get separated from mum and bawl and the dogs had to go down to check on them.   A coyote almost got one but the dog saw him and interceded.  Our neighbor had a great view and drove over to tell us about how impressive they were.  It was all in a day's work for them.

Our fences are not 6' chain link. We started with 5' chain link fencing, but soon learned that it did not hold up against horses and goats who like to rub on it and stretch it.  We have learned a lot over the past 30 years, and when we added 4.5 acres to our original 1.6 acres we fenced the entire perimeter with welded oil pipe (3-4" diameter) with woven wire "no climb" stock fencing on it.  The fences are only 5' tall, but our dogs respect them and don't try to go over or dig under.  We make periodic checks of the boundary fencing because after winter rains (when we have any) the dirt washes out from under the fencing and needed to be repacked with rocks and dirt.  What we finally did in those problem areas was to take chain link pieces and lay them over the ground inside the fence and attach the upper end to the fence.  The grass grows through, dirt and rocks get washed on to it, and the chain link is held in place making a dig proof bottom line to our fences.  In the front of the property the land comes steeply downhill to the fence which causes dirt and scree to build up against the fence on the inside. In a couple of places the original fence is now 4' or less.  We have attached additional posts to the original oil pipe posts and are stringing woven wire on them to raise the fence height to about 7'.  The dogs have not bothered to jump out, but we don't believe in taking chances.  We have already done this fence raising along the sides of the property going into the gully where the dirt, rocks and scree have washed from the upper side into the lower side of the gully, causing the height of the fence there to be "lowered" too.  Actually the ground level inside the fence has been raised by the dirt and scree that has washed down against the fence.  Constant fence maintenance is a real pain in the neck, but needs to be done!

You are correct, our dog _are_ Anatolians.  We used to have Great Pyrenees and we loved their sweet dispositions with our children and strangers.  However, the bloodlines we had liked to guard by chasing off all predators for 100 acres around our property so after Poppy died of cancer and we started having predator kills again we got an 16 months old Anatolian bitch.  Her guarding style is exactly what we wanted.  She stays with the sheep, but does her patrols too.  We needed another guardian dog since the coyotes are bad here and we had additional kills, so we added a young male Anatolian a couple years ago.  They are 6 and 3 years old now.  We are in the process of bringing in another female Anatolian puppy.  2 dogs would be enough on some 5 acre parcels, but we are surrounded by coyotes (even though we are technically in the suburbs of Los Angeles county).  Our topography is also very steep which enables coyotes to get over and under fences.  In addition, our home and barn sit on the top of the ridge which means that our property is split in half and the dogs have to defend two divergent sides of a steep hill.  In the back, is the very steep gully backing onto 100 open acres.  Here in this county, predators and wild animals have little fear of humans.  It has been illegal to kill cougars in this state for years now and not only have they made a big comeback in terms of numbers, but they have little fear of humans.  Coyotes pay no attention to humans as well since they are very smart and know that they are safe as long as you don't have a rifle.  We are well protected by our dogs as long as we lock the sheep in the barn (ewes and lambs) and the night fold (older sheep)at dusk.  The barn and the night fold are within 25 -30 feet from the house on the top of the ridge.  We don't dare leave them out at night or the coyotes will kill them.  We lost 2 lambs last summer which is why we are getting another puppy.  By the time she is 12-18 months old, she will be a working deterrent to the predators.  While she would have a problem by herself, with the backing and training of the older dogs she should grown into a wonderful livestock guardian.  Her bloodlines are the same as the older dogs we have and they are terrific guardians, as well as family pets.  Hopefully, 3 dogs will hold the fort for a while, until Rika reaches 9-10 yrs then we will be adding a 4th dog in preparation for her retirement.    They can live until 12 or so, but they never lose their heart and courage, so will not give up protecting even in old age.  Adding additional younger dogs is the only way to keep the old dogs safe.  Anatolians are a difficult breed though.  We could run several male or female Pyrs together, but it is very difficult to keep mature Anatolian males or females of the same sex that are the same age unless they are in different pastures.  That is why we add a new puppy when the older dogs are at specific ages.  The older dogs will accept a juvenile, raise it and help train it where they would try to kill an adult Anatolian.  Cross fencing our steep acres is too costly.  Besides we like to invite our guardians inside at night for family time.  We could switch them off, but this is the way we have chosen.  They are fabulous with our grandchildren.

How large are your foxes?  Here the coyotes can be anything to a small one the size of an English fox - say 35-45 lbs. up to large ones that range around 50-60 lbs.  We do not have any wolves here although there are packs taking up residence in northern California.  Wolves can be well over 100 lbs. and are the most dangerous predator to sheep, goats, and cattle, since they hunt in a pack and are very competent planners when staging a hunt and kill.  Cougars move through the neighborhoods, but usually will move on when faced by the warnings of our large dogs and the fact that our sheep are locked up at night.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 16, 2019)

G'day, sorry about the slow reply. Ridgetop..Our foxes are the English Red Fox and they take mainly very young lambs.We do have problems with "lost " hunting dogs from time to time as they get hungry and a sheep or lamb is an easy meal.While not a problem in our district wild dogs or Dingos especially now that the population has x bred with domestic breeds of dog present "huge" problems for some farmers.Imagine if you can a Dingo x with the skill of a Kelpie,the speed of a Greyhound and the size of a small Mastiff along with the cunning of the original Dingo.

As an aside,yesterday we sold some lambs at the regional stock sale ,it was a tough day both sales wise and the weather.In was 43 c by midday and there were 27000 head on offer.Jenny and I retreated to the cafe on site to escape the heat and while there I struck up a conversation with 2 old farmers about my age and naturally the conversation turned to the weather and the recent rain ,both farmers had had about the same as us but one had a little less than us his result was that all of the flood-ways on his boundary had been washed away along with most of his topsoil and nutrient load and for his 6 ins of rain he was left with "no grass'" and the prospect of hand feeding until the Fall break.I must confess that I was not "game" to show him the results of the rain on our place as I felt he was depressed enough as it was ,but it sure made me appreciate the work we have done on our place over the years....T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 17, 2019)

Those swales work. They hold back the rain, letting it soak in and replenishing your pastures. Yes, all your hard work is paying off.


----------



## Ridgetop (Jan 17, 2019)

I imagine if he has no grass, will he be cutting back his breeding stock to what he can carry?  With no topsoil, how will he be able to plant or seed pasture.  Do you seed pasture there?   I am glad that you had your berms in place to  avoid erosion.  

We have been in a drought for years, but have had a few days of rain over the past month.  Then, starting on Saturday night, we got 3 large northern storms drop lots of snow and rain on us.  We are grateful for the snow, several feet in the mountains, since we depend on the snowpack for our water.  We have not had much forage (you can't call what we have here grass) for several years and the sheep take it to bare ground.  This is why we have them since we are in severe brush fire country.  It looks like we may end up with a good forage year after all with all the rain.  This makes me happy since it will help the lambs gain better, and cost us less in feed.  Weighing lambs tomorrow.  Hope to see good gains.  I am considering adding in some lamb grower and mixing it in with the barleycorn if the ADG is not up to what I want.  Time to start turning them out in the field when we get back from our Idaho trip.


----------



## The Old Ram-Australia (Jan 19, 2019)

To answer your question Ridgetop,i did not press the conversation any further.In all our years on various farms we have never sown grass rather we endevour to increase what we have existing at the time and manage to former ones to regenerate from existing seed banks.

These two photos illustrate how resilient our paddocks have become over time,the first one was a very "dry spell" some years ago.Last spring when we were hand feeding hay every day to the new flock for about 10 weeks it had become quite "rundown" again,but the recent rain has produced the conditions in the paddock now.......T.O.R.


----------



## Baymule (Jan 19, 2019)

Wow! HUGE difference!


----------

