# new problem with Drift (LGD)



## treeclimber233 (Jun 16, 2011)

Now that I have orphan babies with no mother to protect them Drift is mouthing them all over their necks and shoulders.  The other day I saw him grab one baby by the back leg and go to shake it like he would a rag.  I grabbed him and yanked him away from the baby hollaring no at him.  The babies have been kept seperated (in a large dog kennel) since I started noticeing "wet, slobbery" necks but I can't keep them in there forever.  Is there any way I can stop that behavior?


----------



## 20kidsonhill (Jun 16, 2011)

Put hot pepper sauce on them.


----------



## treeclimber233 (Jun 16, 2011)

Good idea but what happens when the babies lick themselves????


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Jun 16, 2011)

Put a shock collar on him and the minute he gets close to a baby  ZAAAAPPPP!!!


----------



## treeclimber233 (Jun 16, 2011)

I've thought about that.  A friend of mine has a shock collar that I might borrow.


----------



## Roll farms (Jun 16, 2011)

I never, ever let our LGD's around newborns unless they're proven "kid safe" / 2 yrs old, and ESPECIALLY if they don't have a dam to protect them.

LGD are puppies for 2 yrs....most of the horror stories I hear of kids being hurt / killed are by young dogs.

Ours live w/ the 'old does' who show them who's the boss until they're old enough / past the playful puppy stage.  

Gus, who was born / raised here...is 14 mos old...and still in w/ the big goats.


----------



## rockdoveranch (Jun 16, 2011)

TreeClimber,

Please keep us up dated.

I think posts about LGDs are important, and even though you are talking about a problem, I hope more people will post about their dogs.

We do not have LGDs or any guardians for our sheep, and stupid me, all our dogs are dogs that have strong prey instincts, but I am VERY eager to learn more about guardian dogs.

Good luck.


----------



## carolinagirl (Jun 16, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I never, ever let our LGD's around newborns unless they're proven "kid safe" / 2 yrs old, and ESPECIALLY if they don't have a dam to protect them.
> 
> LGD are puppies for 2 yrs....most of the horror stories I hear of kids being hurt / killed are by young dogs.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more.  While most of these LGD breeds are calmer than your average puppy, they are still puppies and should never be trusted alone with young livestock until they are much older.


----------



## poorboys (Jun 16, 2011)

we are getting ready to have puppies from one of our lgd, they are in with the big does (older) I'm not sure how this will pan out because when she has her litter they'll still be in with the does. I also have a doe who just kidded and was wanting her to raise her own baby but don't see that happining because of the dog issue. we always have to introduce new animals to the dogs. but i would'nt trust them with my kids, as small as they are, my dogs are  well over 100lbs. I am gonna be going thru this with you trying to figure out where to put where.


----------



## rockdoveranch (Jun 16, 2011)

Carolinagirl posted links to 2 forums on LGDs on another thread.  I have not looked at them yet, but maybe they can help.

This is what she wrote:

"Join this forum....  http://www.lgd.org/lgdl.html

It's a list server and is annoying as all get out to use but it seems to have fairly knowledgeable folks there.  Also here's a great Pyr forum.  Don't know how good it is, I just discovered it.  http://www.greatpyr.com/forum/index.php"

Thanks Carolinagirl, you are VERY informative!


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 16, 2011)

I guess my baby is an exception?!
He never attempt to harm the smallest animal on my property, including running free rabbit ~lol~ and tiny baby chicks.
He is like a big teddy bear; when I'm feeding my goats with the bottle, he is right there licking the milk drops and licking goat mouths...so funny....


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 16, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> I never, ever let our LGD's around newborns unless they're proven "kid safe" / 2 yrs old, and ESPECIALLY if they don't have a dam to protect them.
> 
> LGD are puppies for 2 yrs....most of the horror stories I hear of kids being hurt / killed are by young dogs.
> 
> ...


x3.  Yes there are exceptions, but puppies are puppies.  I have a 10 month old LGD who is never allowed unsupervised access to kids.  He's never made any attempt to mouth babies, but that's the point.  If he does try I will be there to correct him, the first time and every time.  You set them up to succeed by not giving them the chance to practice bad habits as juveniles.


----------



## treeclimber233 (Jun 16, 2011)

At what age do you no longer consider the kids to be babies.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 16, 2011)

The age of the kid is less of a concern than size.  We have Nigerians, so our LGD pup (10 months) is with our adults only.  Right now he hangs with the bucks.  He has supervised visits with the doe herd where we have a couple Jr's (5 months and 2 months.)


----------



## dhansen (Jun 16, 2011)

My Akbash LDG is now 2 years old.  She has lived with goats her whole life, although she spent 2 days in our house as a tiny puppy(big mistake).  She has been naughty a couple times, but we have been right there to correct her.  One of my nigerian does kidded 2 weeks early and I was soooo glad Squirt was in there to help clean her babies and clean up the mess.  She also is very cuddly and protective of my does right before they kid.  It has been a great help! Occasionally we let her play with our golden retriever, but most of the time is spent with "her goats".  My family has also always given her love through the fence and I go in daily to love on  her.  This has made her super friendly to us, just no real "manners".    She is a fabulous addition to our farm!


----------



## rockdoveranch (Jun 16, 2011)

I was googling around looking for more information on preventing Coccidiosis and I came across this link - 

http://www.case-agworld.com/cAw.LUgdogs.html

It is written by a vet and under LDGs Playing with the sheep, it says, 

"A certain amount of licking, pawing, chasing and nipping can be expected with some puppies. Boredom contributes to playful activities between puppies and the sheep. The problem can be minimized by moving the pup to a larger area, or in some way changing the pup's environment. Closely supervise a new pup and this will eliminate the formation of bad habits. Play behavior decreases with age."

Hope this helps some.


----------



## Roll farms (Jun 16, 2011)

Mzyla said:
			
		

> I guess my baby is an exception?!
> He never attempt to harm the smallest animal on my property, including running free rabbit ~lol~ and tiny baby chicks.
> He is like a big teddy bear; when I'm feeding my goats with the bottle, he is right there licking the milk drops and licking goat mouths...so funny....


How old is he?  Mine don't typically get real confident / frisky until about 9 mos old.  
You may have gotten lucky.  I had (IMHO, lol) one of the *best* great pyrs ever, he LOVED his goats and would have died for them...but he got too rough w/ them when he was a pup, too.

It's not agression, it's play...They get bored, they've been there done that, gotten used to routines.....and suddenly this *thing*(kid) that it sees as a sibling / equal goes running by....and they think it's a new game...wahooo....I'll go chase that *thing* (they don't 'get' that kids can't fight back / bite / claw them to say, "ENOUGH ALREADY" like another dog / pup would do).  

Rough play w/ goats isn't 'bad behavior' it's NORMAL behavior, and actually a sign that they see themselves as 'part of the herd'.  But again, they don't 'know' that goats can be hurt, and I've even seen some act 'sorry' later...

You have to either be there constantly to watch / correct, or keep them seperated until they're proven trustworthy.  Or be extremely lucky.


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 17, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Mzyla said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## dianneS (Jun 17, 2011)

Ugh, I had that same problem when my pup was about 9 months old.  I didn't have him in with any newborns, but I did have a tiny weak doeling, not quite a year old.  He would mount her and chew on her ears.  He bloodied her ears more than once and she has a big chunk out of one ear to this day.

I couldn't contain this dog at all.  Even in a horse stall with rubber mats on the floor, he could break out of.  He would move the mats and dig under the stall walls.  I had him in a big kennel and he would just break the welds on the kennel bars and squeeze through the tiniest of openings.  

The only thing I could do was tie him to a tree, then he'd bark and go completely nuts.  I finally resorted to a muzzle.

We didn't have any major preditors at the time (I mostly got my LGD because I've been told that coyotes are on their way from the next county over) so I put a muzzle on my dog.  He wore it most of the winter that year since we had so much snow that the dog was confined with the goats a lot and I assumed he would get very bored.  I only allowed him to be without the muzzle during supervision.

When I removed the muzzle after the snow melted, I coated my little doelings ears with a pet product used for itching and hot spots.  It has a taste deterrent in it to keep dogs from licking their hot spots.  I also sprayed "Bitter apple" spray on the goats, also a product used for dogs.

It finally did the trick!  I had tried scolding this dog when I would catch him roughing up the goats, but he was too slick.  He just learned not to "play" with them when I wasn't around only going after them when he knew he had no supervision.

He's a great dog now, so don't give up.  They can just be so darn subborn at that age!  I had a whole thread on here about my adventures with my LGD and got a lot of GREAT advice!  http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3097  It went on for months and I almost sent him packing several times.  I had gotten so angry and frustrated with him at one point that I would have shot him had I had a gun.  His breeder even told me that she wouldn't have tolerated his behavior.  I'm so glad I did though, because he's worth his weight in gold today.  Don't give up!


----------



## dhansen (Jun 17, 2011)

So, is there a difference in the LDG's determined by the sex?  Seems like all these posts are from people with males.   Mine is a female and maybe not as rambuntious????


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 17, 2011)

_<n.smithurmond 
How old is he? >_


He is 4 months old. I got him at 11 weeks. He was born on a Farm with goats and other animals. Both parents working at premises.

I guess, I was lucky!? He was great from the very first day. I didn't train him at all! He must to have some kind of excellent genes, I suppose....

We giving him a lot of love, because trully we love him a consider him to be a precious gem 

I was going to neuter him, but I changed my mind and instead, I ordered a Pyr75%-Karakahan25% Female for him.
My new-to be Female:


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 17, 2011)

Mine was a perfect angel until 9 months.  The young puppy months are easy peasy- it's the adolescent months that take some working through.  Just like teenagers.


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 17, 2011)

I'm full of optimism and hope for the best.
Just like with children; when other teenagers were doing drugs, my children were working, going to College and being lovable altogether 
I like to think, that "Once a good seed - it is a good seed"


----------



## SDGsoap&dairy (Jun 17, 2011)

I certainly would NOT characterize ours as a bad seed.  He was a fabulous puppy, is testing his limits like a NORMAL adolescent, and will be a fabulous dog.  It's important for dogs to test boundaries, it's how they learn where the boundaries are.  It's good guidance that ensures their boundary testing is a productive learning experience instead of a total disaster.


----------



## Roll farms (Jun 17, 2011)

If / when your breeding dogs are busy breeding eachother, and not 'on the job'....and something gets in to your animals...don't say you weren't warned that it can happen.

I kept LGD for 6 years before I decided I was even *close* to having enough knowledge to feel like I had any business trying to breed working pups.  I also had a neutered male to run patrol while the love-birds were courting....
I had one litter for fellow goat-farming friends (most had homes before birth) and stopped.  It's a LOT of work / commitment / expense to not only raise good, healthy pups (shots, deworming, vet visits for well-puppy checks) but to also ensure that EACH BUYER has the needed LGD knowledge, proper home, etc.

Also, unaltered males have a HUGE tendency to wander *and* will mount your does.  I'm sure yours will be the exception though.

Hopefully you'll find good working homes for the up to 20 pups a year (or more) they're capable of producing, and none of them end up in pounds or rescues.  Even when you don't plan on breeding them, those dogs will practically kill themselves getting to eachother, and usually find a way.  One dog trying to get out / into something is bad enough...2 determined dogs is a force to be reckoned with.

Of our 11 pups, 9 are still working (one here), 1 was destroyed when it killed a goat kid at 10 mos. (new owners didn't listen to me, they said "But he was SUCH a good boy until then."...her husband shot the dog) and one ended up at the pound (too much dog for their small children, they said later when I called) / was rehomed to an older couple in the country when the pound  called me.

Dhansen, I have a female and have had 3 males (plus the pups).  Edge killed a guinea when she was young but hasn't hurt anything since, and she does a good job guarding but isn't as aggressive as the males.  She's aggressive w/ strange sounds / animals, etc. but will run to the goats instead of "at" the threat, like the males do, if the 'threat' is human.


----------



## Mossy Stone Farm (Jun 17, 2011)

Thank You!!! Roll your post was great!!!!

 I am new to LGDS we bought a pup from a working farm, a year and a half ago.... I followed all the advice givin to me when we picked out our boy... And called when i saw need for advice...

 He has been a challenge at times as puppies will be, he is powerful and big.. He has taken to his job and has all ready proven himself worthy of our trust...

 He is however not allowed to be alone yet with our yearlings or young animals. they are just to playful and he wants to play still.

I had thoughts of getting a female but for the reason you posted i have not done so... He has not been fixed as maybe some day in the future we might * bred him* But finding homes can be a chore and time is short on the farm as it is...

I know we would never want to not have these working dogs here.. but they are a lot of work....


----------



## Mzyla (Jun 17, 2011)

_Also, unaltered males have a HUGE tendency to wander *and* will mount your does.  I'm sure yours will be the exception though._

That was hilarious.Im still rolling     
You never knowhaha

On a serious note; 
I never had any intentions to breed and produce poppy mills here.
I was thinking to have one single litter and then fix them both.

But again, Im taking very sincerely what Roll Farms wrote;

_."...her husband shot the dog) and one ended up at the pound (too much dog for their small children, they said later when I called) / was rehomed to an older couple in the country when the pound called me._

I wasn't thinking about that before  
Now, my main and genuine concern is; Where these puppies would end up? I would never want this, or similar situation, to happen to any of this cuddly beings!

It sure is a lot of work to take care of puppies.Work itself, I dont mind. Im working from home, thus spending a lot of time with animals  which time is most enjoyable to me!
I dont have whole lot of animals; just 2 goats, some chickens.We dont have much of a predators either.I can handle dogs.

But, if out of my wrong decision something that terrible should arise, I would never forgive my self.
Perhaps I call the seller and resign...? But I already named that pup! 

What to do...what to do....I'm tormented now.


----------



## lgdnevada (Jun 20, 2011)

How old is Drift?


----------



## treeclimber233 (Jun 21, 2011)

Drift is 7 months old now.  I tried  the hot sauce.  worked for a while but needs to be reapplied.  He did not learn on the first mouthful. (or he likes the taste)  I used habenaro sauce being very careful to get it only on the tips of hair in front of shoulders so the baby will have difficulty reaching it.


----------



## dianneS (Jun 21, 2011)

treeclimber233 said:
			
		

> Drift is 7 months old now.  I tried  the hot sauce.  worked for a while but needs to be reapplied.  He did not learn on the first mouthful. (or he likes the taste)  I used habenaro sauce being very careful to get it only on the tips of hair in front of shoulders so the baby will have difficulty reaching it.


They sell stuff at the pet store that is a taste deterrent for dogs so that they don't chew things or lick wounds.  Bitter apple spray worked on my dog.


----------



## poorboys (Jun 21, 2011)

I have 3 lgd, one male, two females. the male is always on alert,! the girls lie around, untill he sounds the alert, they have 2 different barks, one to say hi!! and one to alert. they have been in with the goats since they were 8 weeks, My male won't even let a sparrow land inside his territory, so not good with chickens!! I have one female who is a little more aware of whats going on then the other but for the most part very mellow. I do have 6month old boers with them and a few of my milking nubians, I haven't had any problems with the boers in there, acutally the male adopted them!!(maybe because of the color,) he protects them while there eating. but I would'nt put one with my younger ones, or with my nubian babies. I don't want to risk them running them down. the boers just kinda mind there own business, and so do the milkers. my dogs are very protective of me and the family, (and to the neighbors which helps.!!) but you never know trully enough about their mood to trust with such small things. I'm very strick with my orders, it's NO! and I usually only have to say it a few times. there great dogs, for proteting the goats, as far as roll said about breeding, I've had one litter and it's 24-7, and I won't let her keep having litter after litter either, for her health and for the babies.


----------

