# Why does my Nigerian Dwarf goat faint?



## Wendybear

Hello everyone! I recently acquired 2 adorable Nigerian Dwarf goats. Intermittedly, during the last few weeks, I’ve noticed that when she gets up after lying down awhile, her legs are stiff and she walks funny when she gets up. Both front and back legs. After a few steps, she is walking normally and frolicking as usual. 

  I saw that this can be a symptom of CAE. But I only saw reference to the hind legs being stiff, and there has been no knuckling ankles that I’ve noticed. But it scares me enough that I’ve cried myself to sleep the last 2 nights, and plan on getting a test pretty soon to hopefully shed some light. Honestly, I have been so bummed about this. These were our first goats and she was to be my milker. 

I want to add that along with the aforementioned stiff legs, she fainted today while we were out walking. A neighbor drove by on his bike and it surprised her and she just fell over on her side with stiff legs and then hopped back up! She fainted! 

Let me also add that this has happened twice before, but I didn’t realize it was a faint. The first time (about 2 mos old) she tripped over the hitch on my dad’s trailor. She fell off and then flipped on her side with the stiff legs. I was horrified and thought she was dead! She hopped up and seemed fine (but I wasn’t!) I watched her closely for a few days looking for any signs of injury or pain. She was fine, so I forgot about it.

Fast forward a month, she was enjoying a 4ft high newly built platform and jumped off for the first time. When she hit the ground, again she fell over stiff-legged and then hopped back up! I was thouroughly confused by this time and briefly wondered if there was a goat form of epilepsy. I never considered a faint, bc she is a purebred Nigerian Dwarf Goat with papers!

 I have read that there is a very slight chance that if both parents have a recessive myotonic gene that fainting can happen in the offspring? God, I hope so! That would be so much better than CAE. But it seems impossible. Is it possible?


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## Simpleterrier

Yep it is possible. Better chance is u don't have a dwarf goat. But an actual fainting one


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## Goat Whisperer

Have you talked to the breeder? 

Not to scare you, but we had a buck with similar issues, he too looked as if he were “fainting” in times of excitement. In reality he had a severe heart murmur… he didn’survive  Have her checked by a vet.


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## Wendybear

Simpleterrier said:


> Yep it is possible. Better chance is u don't have a dwarf goat. But an actual fainting one



Even with papers? She even has a tattoo. That’s her pic in my avatar.


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## Wendybear

Goat Whisperer said:


> Have you talked to the breeder?
> 
> Not to scare you, but we had a buck with similar issues, he too looked as if he were “fainting” in times of excitement. In reality he had a severe heart murmur… he didn’survive  Have her checked by a vet.


I’m so sorry to hear that.☹️ Just curious, did he also display stiffness when rising from a resting position? Did he display any other symptoms?

The only goat vet out here is far and expensive. I try to utilize him as a la carte as possible, so I was hoping to gather some information and pay for  only the tests that seem necessary. I read the CAE test isn’t really definitive until 6 months of age so I was going to wait until then and maybe check for some other things at that time since she is happy and eating, drinking and pooping great.I just don’t want to bring her in there and plop her in front of him and tell him to do the “works.” I can’t afford that right now. But things should look better financially in a couple of months. I will of course use him in an emerhency or if she was suffering or in pain, but other than what I described she is the picture of health.

No, I haven’t talked to the breeder yet but I plan to.


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## MiniSilkys

Hi Wendybear. Have you considered that you may have a Mini Silky Fainting Goat. They can be registered as purebred Nigerians if they have short hair and as Mini Silky in the MSFGA if they have long hair. Mini Silky's may or may not faint. A purebred nigerian could have the fainting gene without being a fainting goat. Check out the website www.msfga.org.


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## MiniSilkys

Also pictures of both, please! By the way I was told when I bought my first two goats 4 m/o male and 3 y/o doe, that they were mini silky's. This year I realized that the doe was a pygmy and the male was the son of her sister so he is at least half pygmy. That's him as my avatar pic.


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## Wendybear

MiniSilkys said:


> Hi Wendybear. Have you considered that you may have a Mini Silky Fainting Goat. They can be registered as purebred Nigerians if they have short hair and as Mini Silky in the MSFGA if they have long hair. Mini Silky's may or may not faint. A purebred nigerian could have the fainting gene without being a fainting goat. Check out the website www.msfga.org.


No, I hadn’t thought about that at all! I checked your link. I’m thinking you didn’t mean to send me to the Maine State Flowers and Growers Association. Haha  So, I googled short hair mini silkies but mainly only saw pics of long haired goats. I’m going to look into it some more.

I’m confused how a totally different breed can be registered as another. But I’ve only had goats for 5 months and I know next to nothing about how registries work. Lol


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## Wendybear

MiniSilkys said:


> Also pictures of both, please! By the way I was told when I bought my first two goats 4 m/o male and 3 y/o doe, that they were mini silky's. This year I realized that the doe was a pygmy and the male was the son of her sister so he is at least half pygmy. That's him as my avatar pic.


He looks like a sweetie pie!!!! Here are mine above your quote. They both came from the same farm, but different dams and sires. The one I’m speaking of is the light one. Her name is Sugar and the darker one is Spice. She is also pictured in my avatar. Do you think she looks like she could be a mini silkie?


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## Southern by choice

Actually under the ADGA rules they can not be registered if there is any fainting goat in them.
Not sure what your papers say or from what registry they are registered.

One step at a time.
Does the breeder test for CAE?

The heart check is simple, just takes a stethoscope and a listen. A severe murmur is easily detected.
Yes, you want to wait 6-8 months before testing for CAE- use a reputable lab.

Selenium deficiency can cause heart issues as well as infections early in age. Since they are very young the infection aspect would be doubtful.
Thiamine is can be a factor when you see unstable walking.

It is possible somewhere along the line a fainter was in there, however PB Nigerian Dwarf should have no evidence of such.


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## MiniSilkys

Wendybear said:


> View attachment 52681
> He looks like a sweetie pie!!!! Here are mine above your quote. They both came from the same farm, but different dams and sires. The one I’m speaking of is the light one. Her name is Sugar and the darker one is Spice. She is also pictured in my avatar. Do you think she looks like she could be a mini silkie?


I'm so sorry. It is www.msfgaregistry.org.They have to be long-haired to be registered in the MSFGA registry because long hair is what they are going for. If you search for mini silky fainting goats and look at some of the breeder websites you will find some that have short haired silkys. Many of them are sold unregistered or registered as nigerians. Look at this page and it will tell you. https://msfgaregistry.org/msfga-history. Some sire who fainted were registered with AGS. Sugar and Spice are very pretty. I love the color of spice. Mine have collars and run with chickens too. By the way mini silkys were bred from long haired nigerians crossed with long haired Tennessee Fainting goats.


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## Wendybear

Southern by choice said:


> Actually under the ADGA rules they can not be registered if there is any fainting goat in them.
> Not sure what your papers say or from what registry they are registered.
> *
> ADGA is what the papers say. *
> 
> One step at a time.
> Does the breeder test for CAE?
> 
> *From her website, it doesn’t look like it. *
> 
> The heart check is simple, just takes a stethoscope and a listen. A severe murmur is easily detected.
> Yes, you want to wait 6-8 months before testing for CAE- use a reputable lab.
> 
> *I have a stethoscope. I will give a listen today when I go out to trim their hooves. Wish me luck, it’s my first time. Lol
> *
> Selenium deficiency can cause heart issues as well as infections early in age. Since they are very young the infection aspect would be doubtful.
> Thiamine is can be a factor when you see unstable walking.
> 
> *For the life of me I can’t figure out if we are selenium deficient in my area. I gave them both a dose of Selenium and Vitamin E earlier this week just in case. Thiamine has to do with Vitamin B correct? Is there a way to give that without an injection bc I haven’t done one of those yet and it makes me nervous.*
> 
> It is possible somewhere along the line a fainter was in there, however PB Nigerian Dwarf should have no evidence of such.
> 
> *Ugh ... for me would have been the best case scenario. *
> .


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## Wendybear

MiniSilkys said:


> I'm so sorry. It is www.msfgaregistry.org.They have to be long-haired to be registered in the MSFGA registry because long hair is what they are going for. If you search for mini silky fainting goats and look at some of the breeder websites you will find some that have short haired silkys. Many of them are sold unregistered or registered as nigerians. Look at this page and it will tell you. https://msfgaregistry.org/msfga-history. Some sire who fainted were registered with AGS. Sugar and Spice are very pretty. I love the color of spice. Mine have collars and run with chickens too. By the way mini silkys were bred from long haired nigerians crossed with long haired Tennessee Fainting goats.


Wow, I’m learning a lot. I had no idea there were long haired nigies! My chickens and goats get along great, although it’s been hell keeping the goats out of the chicken coop. No matter how small we make the door, it’s not small enough! They have magic powers to make their bones collapse or something. Lol So, I’ve been forced to keep it closed during the day with only the upper door open for the chickens to get in and out.

Thank you! Spice does have gorgeous coloring. I felt bad wethering him, but couldn’t justify having a buck with just one doe.


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## Southern by choice

@MiniSilkys  what registry allows this?  There are not long haired or short haired Nigerians. Nigerians may have some longer hair some have shorter but they are dairy animals, bred for dairy. It is not a variety or a "mix" breed for that. ADGA and AGS do not allow anything but Purebred Nigerian, they have CLOSED herdbooks.

Not sure what registry Mini Silky's is talking about.  What registry are your goats registered with?  The Nigerian is no longer a "new" breed so any Myotonic would be non existant. 
Nigerians do not faint. *You should contact the breeder.* What did the other goats look like where you got them? Did they have other breeds? Is this a oops breeding?


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## Wendybear

Southern by choice said:


> What registry are your goats registered with?  The Nigerian is no longer a "new" breed so any Myotonic would be non existant.
> Nigerians do not faint. *You should contact the breeder.* What did the other goats look like where you got them? Did they have other breeds? Is this a oops breeding?



She will be registered through the AGDA. I I’m definitely going to contact the breeder. I just want to get my thoughts a little more organized before I do so. I mistakenly answered your previous questions within your quote. I hope it’s not too convoluted to figure out. I answered in *bold, *but it didn’t provide the contrast I was looking for.

The goats looked amazing. Her farm was beautiful and clean. She gave me a tour and explained that she started out raising mini Nubians but is exclusively raising Nigerians now. I observed mostly Nigerians with just a few mini Nubian does, no Nubian kids. My doeling’s sire is onsite, along with another Nigerian buck. Both of her parents have ID numbers on the papers, as well as the breeder. Her father is a grand champion and her grand-dam is an Elite Milker, whatever those mean. When I say her farm was beautiful, it really was. And except for one goat that had a skin condition (that she said she was going to sell as a pet) the goats looked very happy and healthy.


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## Southern by choice

Just so you know I was not suggesting any deception on the breeders part... more looking at what registry etc. There are some registries that are not mainstream and allow mixed Nigerians.
Always good to call the breeder and let them know. It is odd.
Because you are new to goats, it is best to find a vet, have an exam done as well as fecal. This establishes relationship with a vet as well. Trust me- with goats, you will have an emergency at some point and you will want to have established some form of relationship with your vet.

Amazing beautiful farms still can have CAE, CL, and Johnes.   Always keep that in mind.


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## Wendybear

Southern by choice said:


> Just so you know I was not suggesting any deception on the breeders part... more looking at what registry etc. There are some registries that are not mainstream and allow mixed Nigerians.
> Always good to call the breeder and let them know. It is odd.
> Because you are new to goats, it is best to find a vet, have an exam done as well as fecal. This establishes relationship with a vet as well. Trust me- with goats, you will have an emergency at some point and you will want to have established some form of relationship with your vet.
> 
> Amazing beautiful farms still can have CAE, CL, and Johnes.   Always keep that in mind.


I didn’t take it that way. I’m just trying to give as much info as possible. I have a vet and have had fecals done about a month and a half ago. She had diarrhea and tested pos for cocci. 

Did you get a chance to scroll up and read the post that I quoted you and answered you within the quote? I don’t mean to be a pest, I appreciate this forum so much and I remember you helped me before too. I took out their baking soda bc of good info you gave me. Lol


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## MiniSilkys

Southern by choice said:


> @MiniSilkys  what registry allows this?  There are not long haired or short haired Nigerians. Nigerians may have some longer hair some have shorter but they are dairy animals, bred for dairy. It is not a variety or a "mix" breed for that. ADGA and AGS do not allow anything but Purebred Nigerian, they have CLOSED herdbooks.
> 
> Not sure what registry Mini Silky's is talking about.  What registry are your goats registered with?  The Nigerian is no longer a "new" breed so any Myotonic would be non existant.
> Nigerians do not faint. *You should contact the breeder.* What did the other goats look like where you got them? Did they have other breeds? Is this a oops breeding?


I was not suggesting there was a long haired variety of nigerians. Just simply stating that the goats picked to produced the mini silky breed were long haired nigerians and long haired tennessee fainters. The mini silky breed was started with "Gingerwood" an AGS registered Nigerian dwarf buck who was sired by an AGS foundation Nigerian buck named "Cheedy", whose sire "Jessie" fainted. Gingerwood even had long bangs. Bayshore's "Napoleon Maraco" was a registered Nigerian buck who had long hair. courtesy of msfgaregistry.org


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## IstaItan

Pardon my ignrance, but fainting is caused by a myotonic gene mutation... This mutation has been found in other species including humans. In that context, being purebred may actually increase the likelyhood of uncovering a recessive mutation due to selective breeding practices. Am I missing the mark here? Not disputing that it could also be a disease process, but it seems more likely that your little one is the byproduct of a pairing that resulted in a recessive expression. I'd let the breeder know, thiugh, as this is apparently an undesirable manifestation and thus they sjosho consider either culling or at least no longer pairing the parents.

Just my minimally informed two cents...


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## sfgwife

A video might help others see what you are talkin about too. I k ow it seems mean to make her faint but it may help. I dunno.


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## Jaycies

Wendybear said:


> Hello everyone! I recently acquired 2 adorable Nigerian Dwarf goats. Intermittedly, during the last few weeks, I’ve noticed that when she gets up after lying down awhile, her legs are stiff and she walks funny when she gets up. Both front and back legs. After a few steps, she is walking normally and frolicking as usual.
> 
> I saw that this can be a symptom of CAE. But I only saw reference to the hind legs being stiff, and there has been no knuckling ankles that I’ve noticed. But it scares me enough that I’ve cried myself to sleep the last 2 nights, and plan on getting a test pretty soon to hopefully shed some light. Honestly, I have been so bummed about this. These were our first goats and she was to be my milker.
> 
> I want to add that along with the aforementioned stiff legs, she fainted today while we were out walking. A neighbor drove by on his bike and it surprised her and she just fell over on her side with stiff legs and then hopped back up! She fainted!
> 
> Let me also add that this has happened twice before, but I didn’t realize it was a faint. The first time (about 2 mos old) she tripped over the hitch on my dad’s trailor. She fell off and then flipped on her side with the stiff legs. I was horrified and thought she was dead! She hopped up and seemed fine (but I wasn’t!) I watched her closely for a few days looking for any signs of injury or pain. She was fine, so I forgot about it.
> 
> Fast forward a month, she was enjoying a 4ft high newly built platform and jumped off for the first time. When she hit the ground, again she fell over stiff-legged and then hopped back up! I was thouroughly confused by this time and briefly wondered if there was a goat form of epilepsy. I never considered a faint, bc she is a purebred Nigerian Dwarf Goat with papers!
> 
> I have read that there is a very slight chance that if both parents have a recessive myotonic gene that fainting can happen in the offspring? God, I hope so! That would be so much better than CAE. But it seems impossible. Is it possible?



I believe, my dear, you have a fainting goat.  I'm smiling as I write this as I too have one although mine is a pygmy and she is a fainting goat.  But the symptoms you explain here is exactly what my girl does and she's now 15 years old.  I hope this gives you some sleep and peace as well. 

Please keep us posted. <3


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## MiniSilkys

IstaItan said:


> Pardon my ignrance, but fainting is caused by a myotonic gene mutation... This mutation has been found in other species including humans. In that context, being purebred may actually increase the likelyhood of uncovering a recessive mutation due to selective breeding practices. Am I missing the mark here? Not disputing that it could also be a disease process, but it seems more likely that your little one is the byproduct of a pairing that resulted in a recessive expression. I'd let the breeder know, thiugh, as this is apparently an undesirable manifestation and thus they sjosho consider either culling or at least no longer pairing the parents.
> 
> Just my minimally informed two cents...


I believe you are correct, but6 that does not mean either needs to be culled or not even no longer choosing that mating. Just because they both may have that gene does not make it undesirable. Some pick mating's just to get the fainting gene.


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## MiniSilkys

Wendybear said:


> Wow, I’m learning a lot. I had no idea there were long haired nigies! My chickens and goats get along great, although it’s been hell keeping the goats out of the chicken coop. No matter how small we make the door, it’s not small enough! They have magic powers to make their bones collapse or something. Lol So, I’ve been forced to keep it closed during the day with only the upper door open for the chickens to get in and out.
> 
> Thank you! Spice does have gorgeous coloring. I felt bad wethering him, but couldn’t justify having a buck with just one doe.
> View attachment 52689


I wish I could have mated Spice to my does. He is so pretty. My buck likes to hop on his back legs too. I will post a pic soon.


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## Goat Whisperer

I would certainly talk to the breeder. 
And to a vet. 

If she is myotonic IMO her papers should be revoked. 
This is not a normal situation, and as a breeder who shows Nigerian Dwarfs I would want to know. 

If this is another issue, and the kid dies, I as a breeder would be very skeptical if the buyer were to wait this long before saying anything.


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## OneFineAcre

IstaItan said:


> Pardon my ignrance, but fainting is caused by a myotonic gene mutation... This mutation has been found in other species including humans. In that context, being purebred may actually increase the likelyhood of uncovering a recessive mutation due to selective breeding practices. Am I missing the mark here? Not disputing that it could also be a disease process, but it seems more likely that your little one is the byproduct of a pairing that resulted in a recessive expression. I'd let the breeder know, thiugh, as this is apparently an undesirable manifestation and thus they sjosho consider either culling or at least no longer pairing the parents.
> 
> Just my minimally informed two cents...




You are correct !!!


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## OneFineAcre

MiniSilkys said:


> I believe you are correct, but6 that does not mean either needs to be culled or not even no longer choosing that mating. Just because they both may have that gene does not make it undesirable. Some pick mating's just to get the fainting gene.



Mytonic traits are disqualifying for Nigerians in ADGA, so her offspring should not be registered in ADGA in my opinion.


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## Goat Whisperer

OneFineAcre said:


> You are correct !!!


Have you seen this in ND's before? 
I know is _can_ happen. But IMO I think the goat should still be looked at by a vet. 
Our buck (that died of the heart issue) acted like a myotonic goat, however three different vets came to the same conclusion- is was indeed his heart. Hopefully this is not the case with this goat.

I certainly would not breed her.


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## IstaItan

I think the choice if breeding or not breeding her comes down to personal objectives.  If she possesses individual desirable traits, is healthy enough to carry and care for kids, produces healthy kids displaying desirable traits for that farm, and the owner is prepared to appropriately care for and manage any offspring born that are either not marketable or that the mother fails to care for, there's no harm in breeding her. 

Myotonic goats are a bit more novelty- think laboradoodles and maltipoos- although they did historically serve a purpose of their own. If your goal is to register and show, or produce show stock for others, then maybe breeding this doe isn't the way to go. But if she is otherwise desirable, there is certainly a market in various areas where myotonic goats are quite desirable- usually as pets like mine.

I don't disagree that a major defect should also be considered, and I'm sorry, Goat Whisperer, for the pain of your loss.

Based upon description, duration, and pattern, it's not the top of my rule out list despite it being a possibility. When my dog comes in from running the property toe-touchy lame, I'm aware that it could be an anterior cruciate ligament injury, but the first thing I check for is the simplest, then work to most complex... I look for a burr or thorn between his toes, then screen from there and involve the vet when I've failed to postively identify the culprit and need further diagnoatics. It's less stressful on the animal and on the budget that way.


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## OneFineAcre

Goat Whisperer said:


> Have you seen this in ND's before?
> I know is _can_ happen. But IMO I think the goat should still be looked at by a vet.
> Our buck (that died of the heart issue) acted like a myotonic goat, however three different vets came to the same conclusion- is was indeed his heart. Hopefully this is not the case with this goat.
> 
> I certainly would not breed her.



I've never seen it, no.
But, remember when AGS started the herdbook back in the 1980's it was "open", so I'm sure some with some fainter in there probably made it in.


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## OneFineAcre

IstaItan said:


> I think the choice if breeding or not breeding her comes down to personal objectives.  If she possesses individual desirable traits, is healthy enough to carry and care for kids, produces healthy kids displaying desirable traits for that farm, and the owner is prepared to appropriately care for and manage any offspring born that are either not marketable or that the mother fails to care for, there's no harm in breeding her.
> 
> Myotonic goats are a bit more novelty- think laboradoodles and maltipoos- although they did historically serve a purpose of their own. If your goal is to register and show, or produce show stock for others, then maybe breeding this doe isn't the way to go. But if she is otherwise desirable, there is certainly a market in various areas where myotonic goats are quite desirable- usually as pets like mine.
> 
> I don't disagree that a major defect should also be considered, and I'm sorry, Goat Whisperer, for the pain of your loss.
> 
> Based upon description, duration, and pattern, it's not the top of my rule out list despite it being a possibility. When my dog comes in from running the property toe-touchy lame, I'm aware that it could be an anterior cruciate ligament injury, but the first thing I check for is the simplest, then work to most complex... I look for a burr or thorn between his toes, then screen from there and involve the vet when I've failed to postively identify the culprit and need further diagnoatics. It's less stressful on the animal and on the budget that way.



Nothing wrong with breeding her.  
But, if she truly has the myotonic trait, then her offspring are disqualified from ADGA registration.
It's not a matter of choice.  When you sign the paperwork and present the animal for registration you are certifying that the animal is eligible for registration.


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## MiniSilkys

Who has to be registered as a dairy goat anyway. A goat is still a goat. It mainly has to do with money anyway. Does anyone realize that every breed of goat has ancestry that is a mix? I say she is a great looking goat. If you have a chance at breeding her to a good buck like Spice, I would do it. Kids are like sunshine when its been raining all winter.


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## Goat Whisperer

OneFineAcre said:


> Nothing wrong with breeding her.
> But, if she truly has the myotonic trait, then her offspring are disqualified from ADGA registration.
> It's not a matter of choice. When you sign the paperwork and present the animal for registration you are certifying that the animal is eligible for registration.


Thanks for posting this OFA. My last post got cut short, I agree 100%. If the goat is bred, offspring should not be registered with the ADGA


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## Goat Whisperer

MiniSilkys said:


> Who has to be registered as a dairy goat anyway. A goat is still a goat. It mainly has to do with money anyway.


Not to cause an argument, but raising registered dairy goats has not been about the money  We show, participate in DHIR milktest and will be doing Linear appraisals next year. Registered goats are more than the price you sell them for  
That being said, we still have a few unregistered ladies in our pastures that will live their life here.


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## MiniSilkys

Goat Whisperer said:


> Not to cause an argument, but raising registered dairy goats has not been about the money  We show, participate in DHIR milktest and will be doing Linear appraisals next year. Registered goats are more than the price you sell them for
> That being said, we still have a few unregistered ladies in our pastures that will live their life here.


I understand that GW. But y'all are involved in a long chain of shows, ribbons, and things such as that. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's great. But I personally don't have the money to be involved in that kind of area. And where I live most people don't. Some are lucky to castrate their bucks and sell them for $35. The only way I would be able to buy a purebred would be if their is something wrong with it. I can not afford $600 for one.


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## Southern by choice

MiniSilkys said:


> I understand that GW. But y'all are involved in a long chain of shows, ribbons, and things such as that. And there is nothing wrong with that. It's great. But I personally don't have the money to be involved in that kind of area. And where I live most people don't. Some are lucky to castrate their bucks and sell them for $35. The only way I would be able to buy a purebred would be if their is something wrong with it. I can not afford $600 for one.



Actually we have only been showing the past 2 years, but we originally started out purely as homestead. We still are too.
Yes we have changed a lot of things but we still have several unregistered goats and we also breed the ultimate homesteader goat... the minis! Miniature lamanchas jn our case.
We have grades and experimentals.

IOW I agree, goats are goats and have purpose! Whether it be for meat, milk, both, or even just companions that also clear brush. Goats are amazing.

The issue for the poster comes down to the registration.  Let's say the poster had wanted to show etc, breed for that, they really can't do that and they have a responsibility as well as the breeder to rectify the situation. 

You are right in one sense about $.  For example- I have several Grade mini's because they are grade even though they are registered grades I cannot charge the same price as an experimental or f-1 or so on. Even though my grades may be my best producers. Boggles the mind sometimes. For those of us that also do a little more with the goats - well, that is costly... on our part.
Every month I have a tester come out and do our milktest. It is 2x  (each test being 12 hours apart)  So , travel & time expense plus my monthly fee to Dairy one for the data, plus shipping the samples, plus my yearly fee to ADGA adds up. We also test all our goats for CAE, CL, Johnes. This year my test fees will run just shy of $1000 for disease testing.  Add to that some shows require you to be there on Fri and you show thru Sun. Fri is a day off work. Then entry fees per goat, travel etc, food. This year we didn't do linear appraisals but that would have been approximately over $400.  Of course then add in vet care, feed, hay , all the normal stuff all goat owners have.  And of course my yearly membership dues for 2 registries, 2 membership fees for the clubs we are members of and each goat registered. Doelings 9.50-10.50 Each and bucklings 15.50-16.50 each. We had 42 kids this year. Some went for meat, some wethered, some retained, some sold. Springs shows are costly at least fall fair shows pay out if you do well. 

All these programs are our choices but there is value to us so we participate. When we sell a registered doe our range (depending on breed, registration status, and breeding behind that goat) is generally starting at $300 and go up from there. Personally I don't think that is too much.  We don't make a dime of selling our goats but we want to make sure any goat going off the farm is free of defects etc, unless otherwise stated and then papers would not accompany the goat.  I have sold registered grades for as low as $150.  
We want every goat that leaves our farm be a blessing to those that get them, that is very important to us.  Money isn't the goal of what we do, if that were the case we wouldn't have goats.


I love my unregistered goats every bit as much as my others, the others that have papers allow us to do more with our goats. I will say you can have great unregistered and registered and mediocre of both as well.  Not a registered goat snob in any way  it boils down to what is and isn't registerable under the rules, and if you paid for registered animals then you should have animals that meet the registries requirements.


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## Ridgetop

There are lots of opinions here.  I agree with GW, OFA and Southern.  We all love our animals whether they are breed champions, elite or star milkers, ribbon winners, or back yard pets.  Some people like to dismiss show animals as just beauty pageant winners.  Those people think breeders show in order to get super high prices for their animals.  The return is not as high as the output.  In fact, most of us who do all that ether barely break even, or have another source of income!   LOL

*BUT the point here is that Wendybear paid for registered Nigerian Dwarf goats.*  She wethered the little buckling and if _he_ were fainting it might be ok although she still would have to notify the breeder since this is a disqualification in the breed.  However it is the doeling that is showing the fainting gene.  In this case, Wendybear wants to use her as a milker.  _To do that she has to be bred and produce kids._  What will Wendybear do with the kids?  *With the myotonic trait Wendybear cannot legitimately and honestly sell them as registered NDs.* *They are ineligible because their mother is ineligible to be registered since she has the myotonic trait.*  This is the main problem.  *Wendybear paid for registered kids.  The doeling cannot be registered.  Therefore she needs to notify the breeder immediately of the situation.  If she decides to keep the doe as a pet, that is her choice, but she now has an unregistered goat that she paid a registered price for.  This is a monetary loss for her.*

When the breeder signs the registration papers he or she is verifying that the animal is eligible for registration as a purebred representative of the breed, and that the parents listed on the registrations papers and all the generations before are what is shown in the papers.  Registered animals bring a higher price because of all the expense that goes into producing a true representative of the breed.  Misrepresentation of the ability of the animal to be registered with the appropriate organization is fraud.  It seriously calls the breeder's reputation into question if the breeder deliberately registered an animal that was ineligible.  If the breeder is unaware that the animal is showing the signs that would disqualify it for registration she needs to be immediately notified so she can rectify the situation.  _Otherwise, if the breeder is unaware and continues to sell registered animals that run the risk of having their papers recalled, she could lose her good reputation and in extreme cases she could be censured and forbidden to register any more animals with ADGA._

Now, on to Southern's other points about showing, health and milk tests - I absolutely agree with Southern,  OFA and GW.  There are reasons why there are conformation and other requirements that you have to conform to in registering animals. All these things cost money.  It is the owner's choice to spend the money and take the considerable time to show.  DHIR milk testing and Linear Appraisals are expensive.  It costs a lot of money to run CAE, CL, Johnnes, etc. tests to make sure you have a clean herd.  It costs money to do annual health vaccinations, spend time clipping hooves, etc. It costs money to make sure you are feeding properly and that your animals are healthy, free from parasites, etc.  But when a breeder who does all these things, has the records to show the buyer, and offers an animal for sale you can be pretty sure you are getting what you are paying for.  Just because the place is pretty doesn't mean that the animals are healthy, purebred, or what they are advertised to be. 

There are reasons that the responsible breeder does all these things.  It is not just about showing for money.  When you show an animal you are trying to get a specimen that conforms to the standard.  There are reasons for the standard of perfection in all breeds and species.  There is a reason why ADGA requires breeders to swear that the registration information they are submitting is true and correct.  Conformation and body structure - Milking animals are built differently from meat producing animals.  If you want mill production you buy an animal from a breeder who keeps milk records, does DHIR milk test to know what each individual animal produces in quantity, quality and butterfat content of her milk.  If you want a meat breed, you do not buy a milker, you buy a meat producing animal with the appropriate body and bone structure.  Species breed shows are important to keep the breed as a whole on track in type and conformation.  This is what produces animals that are good breeders and reproduce their own type.

If you want to cross breed different breeds of milk animals, you will still get milking animals.  Some of the highest recorded milkers on DHIR test have been grades (not purebred).  Cross breed different breeds of meat animals you will still get meat producing animals (done a lot for show lambs in market classes - most county fair grand champion market lambs are not registered and are cross bred - same with hogs).  BUT it is only by keeping track by blood testing and vaccinations that we can continue producing good animals that will do what you expect from them.  Herd records are not just for us to gloat over they are an important part of the herdsman job - and it takes a lot of time to do it.

I hope I don't sound preachy and I don't want to offend anyone.  There is nothing wrong with unregistered animals.  The problem is that Wendybear wanted _*registered*_ NDs.  If she got something that cannot be registered then the breeder needs to make it right.   I don't show any more, but I do choose replacement stock from flocks or herds that have test evaluation numbers for whatever traits I want in my flock or herd.  The few dollars extra in purchase price is worth getting the genetics and production I want in my flock or herd for the long term.

*Wendybear:* *Get on the phone and call the breeder asap.*  If she is an honest breeder she will either offer to take the doe back or replace her with a properly registered kid.  She might offer to pay for a vet check to make sure it s not a health issue.  Like GW says, if you wait too long any health guarantee the breeder offers will no longer be good.

One last thought, if the doe is startled on the milking stand and faints she could conceivably break her neck.  At the very least, she will spill the milk pail.  Maybe a myotonic milker is not a good idea?  Just thinking . . . .


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## OneFineAcre

By the way, I'm getting rich breeding show goats. 
Do you know how to become a millionaire breeding goats?
Start with $2 million


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## Ridgetop

So right!  Do the rest of you notice that when we buy replacement stock, prices are high, but when we sell stock, prices have just dropped to an all time low?


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## MiniSilkys

Is there anyway to tell for sure what kind of goat you have? I still don't know. Are they pygmy, pygmy/ND, or ND.


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## Ridgetop

Do you have the registration papers on the goats?  Can you post a photo of them?


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## MiniSilkys

No I don't have any papers. I was told they were mini silkys, but now I know they are not.
This was my very first mini doe. She was 3.




This is my buck. He was 5 or 6 months when I bought him. He came from the sister of the doe above. I did not see his sire as he had been sold.



This was from a few days after I brought them home. 


 These are my doe's from the above pair.


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## Ridgetop

Actually, I was asking Wendybear if _she_ had the registration papers from the breeder on _her_ goats.  Since the breeder sold them as registered (or registerable) Nigerian Dwarfs she should have given the paperwork to Wendybear when she bought them.  If so, and Wendy posts a photo of the paperwork, then OFA and Southern (who breed Nigerians) might be able to tell her something.  My experience is in standard size ADGA dairy milkers, not the dwarf breeds. 

Minisilky:  Your goats are very cute.  Are mini silkies a variety of Pygmy goat?  Or are they a new breed?


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## MiniSilkys

Oh, sorry. I should have known that.  Mini Silkys are a fairly new breed started in the early 2000's. They are a cross of long haired Nigerian Dwarf and long haired Tennessee Fainting Goat.


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## Ridgetop

That is really interesting.  So do your silkies have the myonotonic gene that cause them to faint?


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## MiniSilkys

Well, like I said, I have realized that my goats are not silky's. My dam looks like she was a pygmy. But Silky's are beautiful goats bred for their long silky hair that can reach the ground. Think of the silky terrier. Some faint and some don't. The breeding is not about the fainting but about the looks. Very expensive. Some sell for $1200. Just google Mini Silky Fainting Goat.


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## Ridgetop

Interesting.  They sound like they need a lost of grooming!  I am replacing my Dorset sheep with Dorper sheep because Dorpers shed their wool and don't need to be shorn.


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## MiniSilkys

I believe they do. You just have to see them. They are beautiful. Some have bangs and long cheek muffs. They come in all sorts of colors even blue.





Picture from bing.



http://www.blessedgreenpastures.com/sitebuilder/images/P1040564-317x310.jpg     He was 10 months old.


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## Ridgetop

Very cute but look like they would be difficult to keep in an area with dry brush or burrs.  Is the hair used for spinning or anything?


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## MiniSilkys

I don't think so .


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