# Need kidding help ASAP



## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

My goat seems to be in some form of labor since Saturday morning new to all of this even having a goat this is her first time her bag is full she has dropped majorly she had a cloudy mucus and some water it seemed like and she pushes from time to time but now her mucus is darker but I dont believe shes displayed her vulva seems tight it's not puffy or loose I dont know what to do I cant afford a vet right now shes getting a brownish reddish mucus please help me and my goat!!!!


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 30, 2018)

You need to wash your hands, trim your nails, lube up and go in for a feel.  At first you can just use an index finger to do a "sweep" inside her.  You need to feel if the cervix is closed or if it's open and you feel some baby parts.   If you do feel some baby parts you will need to GENTLY try to figure out what you feel.  It's a bit tricky to know what you're feeling if you've never done it before, but a head is pretty easy to figure out and so are feet.  

Let us know what's happening and we can try to give you more help.  Of course a vet would be best and if she's been in labor since Saturday you need to know this might not end well.  But, before we forecast gloom and doom you need to get in there and see what's going on.   What kind of goat is it?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

I wouldnt knownwhat the cervix would be if I go in I know that sounds weird but never had to go inside of an animal before shes not puffy or loose in the vulva area it looks tight sucked in kinda


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 30, 2018)

You just need to know if your fingers hit a dead end up in there or if she's open and a baby is trying to come through.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

I just stuck an index finger in her and it goes to a hollow area so does that mean shes dilated?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> You need to wash your hands, trim your nails, lube up and go in for a feel.  At first you can just use an index finger to do a "sweep" inside her.  You need to feel if the cervix is closed or if it's open and you feel some baby parts.   If you do feel some baby parts you will need to GENTLY try to figure out what you feel.  It's a bit tricky to know what you're feeling if you've never done it before, but a head is pretty easy to figure out and so are feet.
> 
> Let us know what's happening and we can try to give you more help.  Of course a vet would be best and if she's been in labor since Saturday you need to know this might not end well.  But, before we forecast gloom and doom you need to get in there and see what's going on.   What kind of goat is it?



She is a 2 year old kinder goat first birthing I stuck an index finger in and it goes a pretty good ways all the way to a bigger opening and didnt feel anything maybe just pre labor? And I'm just panicking for no reason?


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 30, 2018)

The bigger opening should be where the cervix opens into the uterus.  The fact that her vulva is not puffy and looks kind of sunken is another clue that she's dilated inside.  My suggestion would be to see how open she is.  Can you go further?  You will extend all your fingers, but keep them as close together as you can with your thumb tucked inside your other fingers and go deeper.  You need to know what's going on.  Did she push when you had a finger in there?  Usually they will - but if she's been doing this since Saturday she may have simply quit pushing.  Also, most does will stop doing much pushing when they are having problems.    If you feel anything that feels like a baby try to identify what you are feeling.  Just go really slow and try to be gentle - but if you feel baby parts then that baby needs to come out.

Of course, there is the possibility that she's just getting started and waiting would be ok - but I have my doubts.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> The bigger opening should be where the cervix opens into the uterus.  The fact that her vulva is not puffy and looks kind of sunken is another clue that she's dilated inside.  My suggestion would be to see how open she is.  Can you go further?  You will extend all your fingers, but keep them as close together as you can with your thumb tucked inside your other fingers and go deeper.  You need to know what's going on.  Did she push when you had a finger in there?  Usually they will - but if she's been doing this since Saturday she may have simply quit pushing.  Also, most does will stop doing much pushing when they are having problems.    If you feel anything that feels like a baby try to identify what you are feeling.  Just go really slow and try to be gentle - but if you feel baby parts then that baby needs to come out.
> 
> Of course, there is the possibility that she's just getting started and waiting would be ok - but I have my doubts.


When I went in there was nothing there I didnt feel a baby in the canal and yeah she was pushing when I was in there and baaaing pretty loud so I'm guessing shes close but not ready I'm really trying to wait this is so hard


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 30, 2018)

Do you have any other local goat breeders you could call? See if someone will come out and take a look?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Do you have any other local goat breeders you could call? See if someone will come out and take a look?


I talked to couple over facebook and from the pictures I've sent the what I've described they are saying everything looks normal and to just give her time


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

Luvinthefarmlife said:


> I talked to couple over facebook and from the pictures I've sent the what I've described they are saying everything looks normal and to just give her time



She is really going for her salt lick is that normal


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 30, 2018)

Great - hope it goes well!


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> Great - hope it goes well!


Is it normal that shes had been really been locking her salt lick alot today?


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 30, 2018)

I honestly have no idea...sorry.  Be sure to post pics when you've got kids!!


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I honestly have no idea...sorry.  Be sure to post pics when you've got kids!!


Oh I definitely will!! I'm curious to see what comes from a kinder breed and a swiss alpine!!


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 30, 2018)

How's your doe doing?  Kids yet?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 30, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> How's your doe doing?  Kids yet?



Shes talking to her belly and crying out from time to time she finally got an appetite which I'm happy to see since she hadn't eaten since Friday night bit no no babies yet I'm hoping its soon I lmao really hating this waiting game


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## Goatgirl47 (Jul 31, 2018)

How is she doing?
From the pictures it does look like she was/is in labor. If possible, I would have her checked by a vet or at least go in again but farther this time, and see if you can feel anything. Her vulva having that sucked in look (and also the reddish/pinkish discharge) is worrying.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> How's your doe doing?  Kids yet?



Shes talking to her belly and crying out from time to time she finally got an appetite which I'm happy to see since she hadn't eaten since Friday night bit no no babies yet I'm hoping its soon


Goatgirl47 said:


> How is she doing?
> From the pictures it does look like she was/is in labor. If possible, I would have her checked by a vet or at least go in again but farther this time, and see if you can feel anything. Her vulva having that sucked in look (and also the reddish/pinkish discharge) is worrying.



She seems to be ok shes talking alot and having some contractions and grunting some not really any mucus today so far I seen atleast one baby moving around when she was laying down I'm hoping full labor kicks in soon I know shes gotta be close I dont know a due date when we got her March 17th we were told during the whole month of February she was with a buck


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 31, 2018)

What side did you see the baby moving on?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> What side did you see the baby moving on?


On the left side of her belly it wasnt her Rumen this was making different shapes and when I felt it it was really hard like a foot or something


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 31, 2018)

The rumen does move around.  But, I've never had a rumen feel like a foot - so I hope that's what you were feeling.   Is her appetite good?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> The rumen does move around.  But, I've never had a rumen feel like a foot - so I hope that's what you were feeling.   Is her appetite good?



It was really good yesterday, today she was picking at her hay and grain but not chowing down like normal which she usually acts like a pig haha. I'm hoping she goes soon just so she can stop looking miserable this is her this morning


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 31, 2018)

They sure like to keep us guessing!


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> They sure like to keep us guessing!


Yes they do and its stressful first time goat owner and shes a first time mama to be so we are both learning together haha


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## Latestarter (Jul 31, 2018)

Have you checked her ligaments? They seem to be the best indicator of when she's close/ready.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> Have you checked her ligaments? They seem to be the best indicator of when she's close/ready.



They are completely gone been gone since Sunday


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

Luvinthefarmlife said:


> They are completely gone been gone since Sunday






Here is pics I just took does this look like contractions??


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## luvmypets (Jul 31, 2018)

She looks to be pushing, and with the way she is bracing herself I would say pretty hard at that. However it is a picture and as I cant see the motion irl I cant 100% confirm thats what it is. Best of luck and keep us posted.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Jul 31, 2018)

luvmypets said:


> She looks to be pushing, and with the way she is bracing herself I would say pretty hard at that. However it is a picture and as I cant see the motion irl I cant 100% confirm thats what it is. Best of luck and keep us posted.



Yeah I wish I could post videos she lays on her side and then grunts and leans all the way back and holds it baring teeth and grinding them then pushes her head against the wall I have my fingers crossed for delivery tonight and a good outcome!!


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## Mini Horses (Jul 31, 2018)

I see you posted almost an hour ago.   If those pics were shortly before, I should think kids are here.  Looks pretty light outside in pics for almost 11PM!  Where are you?

Hope all is well.  I will assume the buck is NOT in pen where she is kidding.  Right?


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## Latestarter (Aug 1, 2018)

Pwr was out for 2 hours and just came back on...  Ummm yeah, that's almost definitely very hard contractions from those pics. If kids are not on the ground by now, you had best glove up and go after them. If they haven't come out by now there's a better than even chance they are breach or otherwise misrepresenting. Hope she was able to get them babies out of the oven, or you were able to assist her in doing so. Hoping for live kid pics!


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Mini Horses said:


> I see you posted almost an hour ago.   If those pics were shortly before, I should think kids are here.  Looks pretty light outside in pics for almost 11PM!  Where are you?
> 
> Hope all is well.  I will assume the buck is NOT in pen where she is kidding.  Right?



Im in Utah no I dont even own a buck she stopped having the contractions not long before after I took the pics she went to sleep its gotta be pre labor and being her first time shes not sure of what's going on


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Latestarter said:


> Pwr was out for 2 hours and just came back on...  Ummm yeah, that's almost definitely very hard contractions from those pics. If kids are not on the ground by now, you had best glove up and go after them. If they haven't come out by now there's a better than even chance they are breach or otherwise misrepresenting. Hope she was able to get them babies out of the oven, or you were able to assist her in doing so. Hoping for live kid pics!



She went to sleep not too long after those pics were taken its she had 2 light pushes nothing strong and no noises with it its gotta be pre labor


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Luvinthefarmlife said:


> She went to sleep not too long after those pics were taken its she had 2 light pushes nothing strong and no noises with it its gotta be pre labor


This is how she was standing this morning when she woke up she got up ate a little and pooped and then would take a few steps and kinda squat like she had to pee and I never seen her do that with her tail where its curled all the way against her spine


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 1, 2018)

I'm just going to come out and say it - I'm worried about your doe. Have you gone back and done another internal exam?  You need to find out what's going on in there.  The hormones that cause the ligaments to soften and "disappear" are the same hormones that cause the onset of labor and that process is not supposed to take 3 or 4 days.

I hope I'm over-reacting and everything is normal but my nearly 30 years of experience with goats are screaming at me that there's a problem.


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## Mini Horses (Aug 1, 2018)

At this point, from what I see & read, there are pretty much two situations.   ONE she is in trouble.  TWO, she is having pre-labor in a weird way -- may be they are repositiong in there & the pressure puts her natural instinct to push in gear.  Is there a bad odor to the mucus ?

Hoping this has a good outcome.  You have a reason for concern.  Normally mine are mucus and down to business, delivering within a couple hours.  Rarely mucus more than 24 hrs prior, especially colored.

Now, my mini horses have had some "labor looking" days when the foal was moving into position for delivery in a couple weeks.  My goats, rarely more than looking at sides and being restless.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

frustratedearthmother said:


> I'm just going to come out and say it - I'm worried about your doe. Have you gone back and done another internal exam?  You need to find out what's going on in there.  The hormones that cause the ligaments to soften and "disappear" are the same hormones that cause the onset of labor and that process is not supposed to take 3 or 4 days.
> 
> I hope I'm over-reacting and everything is normal but my nearly 30 years of experience with goats are screaming at me that there's a problem.



Yeah I'm getting worried too I'm gonna try and go in with my index finger I'm not sure about doing more than one finger I'm gonna try and call in some back up to really check her


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 1, 2018)

Luvinthefarmlife said:


> I'm gonna try and call in some back up to really check her


Good!  Hope they can help!


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## Mini Horses (Aug 1, 2018)

At this point, I feel she needs help.  A vet would be great -- but, an experienced goat breeder would be next.  Try to get help or you may lose her & the kids.  Hate to alarm but, it is a fact.


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## luvmypets (Aug 1, 2018)

Its been a while, Im hoping your doe is ok.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 1, 2018)

Any news?


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Just wanted to fill everyone In took bloss ok m to the vet she had a dead baby sticking out of her just the nose come to find out there would if been nothing i could of done even earlier had an emergency c section both babies were way to big to pass through the birth canal so shes home testing not out of the woods yet due to so much decay.. here's a pic of her some being pulled out and wasnt even all the way out now mind you she is only 26" tall at the shoulders


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Blossom home resting or trying too....


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## Mini Horses (Aug 1, 2018)

Thank you for taking her!!   Hopefully she will be able to recover.  The op is not the problem, actually.   The toxins from the dead kids is it.  I am sure the vet loaded her with all he safely could and more to come.   Do as vet has instructed and call in an instant if she isn't getting better reasonably soon.  She's gonna be down for a few days at first.  

 & prayers.   Keep us posted, pls.  We care.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Yesb


Mini Horses said:


> Thank you for taking her!!   Hopefully she will be able to recover.  The op is not the problem, actually.   The toxins from the dead kids is it.  I am sure the vet loaded her with all he safely could and more to come.   Do as vet has instructed and call in an instant if she isn't getting better reasonably soon.  She's gonna be down for a few days at first.
> 
> & prayers.   Keep us posted, pls.  We care.


I have to give her 8cc of penicillin twice a day I couldnt lose he shes such a special goat for being my first shes so sweet and lovable one of a kind.. I can always breed her aging down the road but couldnt find another goat like her thanks for your alls support and help


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## Ridgetop (Aug 1, 2018)

Everyone was giving you the right advice.  She was definitely in labor and needed help.  So glad you took her to the vet.  I'm sorry you lost the kids.  Luckily Blossom made it through surgery, and hopefully the antibiotics will take care of any infection. 
Was she bred to a pure Alpine buck?  I am not sure how big Kinders get but I think they are much smaller than Alpines.  Is that right?  Breeding a small breed goat to a full size breed really causes this sort of problem - oversize kids in a small doe. 
Once the doe is in hard labor, the kids must come out within an hour or they won't make it.  I prefer to err on the side of going in and pulling kids if I am in doubt.  If the doe can't have the kids, she will stop all pushing and the kids die anyway.  If the vulva feels tight, you can massage  the muscles to soften them and gradually enlarge the cervix.   You need to get a book with pictures of how kids are normally positioned, and read about situations like  this. 

I used to have my 4-H project kids put stuffed animals in a pillow case and have them feel and identify what parts they were feeling.  This helped them feel confident about their goats kidding.  They still called me, but at least they knew what was going on and understood the procedure. 

Hope you have better luck next time.  You should be able to identify the stages of labor now so you will be more confident and able to intervene in time.  Everything is a learning situation.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 1, 2018)

So, so sorry that both of you had to endure this.  I've had does who had C-sections and mini horses is right - her fight now will be to overcome having those dead kids inside her for awhile.  So very glad you got her to a vet in time to give her a chance.  Goats, like most prey animals, are meant to have their kids very quickly.  You know this now and it's something you'll never forget.  It will make you a better goat owner even though it was a very hard lesson.    And another for Blossom.

Please keep us informed on how she's doing.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

Ridgetop said:


> Everyone was giving you the right advice.  She was definitely in labor and needed help.  So glad you took her to the vet.  I'm sorry you lost the kids.  Luckily Blossom made it through surgery, and hopefully the antibiotics will take care of any infection.
> Was she bred to a pure Alpine buck?  I am not sure how big Kinders get but I think they are much smaller than Alpines.  Is that right?  Breeding a small breed goat to a full size breed really causes this sort of problem - oversize kids in a small doe.
> Once the doe is in hard labor, the kids must come out within an hour or they won't make it.  I prefer to err on the side of going in and pulling kids if I am in doubt.  If the doe can't have the kids, she will stop all pushing and the kids die anyway.  If the vulva feels tight, you can massage  the muscles to soften them and gradually enlarge the cervix.   You need to get a book with pictures of how kids are normally positioned, and read about situations like  this.
> 
> ...


She was bred before I got her to a oberhasli buck which is a fancy term for swiss alpine they get anywhere from 30"-35" tall to big for her


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## luvmypets (Aug 1, 2018)

Im sorry you lost the babe. I pray that blossom will pull through and that both of you will heal. Im sure you’ll be giving her some extra love these next few days.


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## Luvinthefarmlife (Aug 1, 2018)

luvmypets said:


> Im sorry you lost the babe. I pray that blossom will pull through and that both of you will heal. Im sure you’ll be giving her some extra love these next few days.


Oh yeah she'll be getting extra attention and pampering it's been a hard day I know it happens and I can try again  now she will heal up be her normal self have her milk bag dry up hopefully and in 2-3 months I might try again I wasnt planning on having baby goats just ended up keeping her so my neighbor wouldn't eat her she was too sweet to have that happen and shes only 2 years old has a long life ahead of her


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## Latestarter (Aug 2, 2018)

Sorry you lost the kids. Yes, I expect letting her get bred by a full sized buck caused this issue. Glad (tentatively, not out of the woods yet) she seems to be recovering. So glad you didn't continue to wait and got her to a vet.

Please keep a close eye on her udder. It's going to be over full and painful to her and you'll most likely (from the pics you've shared) need to milk her out some to give her a chance to shut down production. I would milk her out completely at least the first couple of days and then only milk her out 1/2-3/4 and decreasing over time. Milk production is not like an "on/off" switch... It's going to take her a while to completely shut down and stop. I'd say to plan for a 3-4 week period more or less. Since she's on antibiotics right now, I don't expect she'd contract mastitis, but no sense taking chances. When over full, her orifices will open to relieve pressure and that can allow bacteria to enter.

ETA: If you want to try goat milk, I would wait at least 3-5 days of milking to clear out the colostrum (nasty tasting) and get to pure milk. Mine tastes bad for about a week with twice a day milking out. To get the best tasting milk, filter and then chill as quickly as possible. I prefer to store in glass. For a trial, you can filter using a coffee filter in a funnel into a ball jar. My Lamanchas provide very sweet, creamy, delish milk.


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## frustratedearthmother (Aug 2, 2018)

Sorry, but I disagree with milking her.  I wouldn't milk her at all.  Milking her out will not help her shut down production - it will encourage her body to produce more milk and that's a stress she doesn't need.  The stress of the surgery itself will help her dry up if there is no stimulation of the udder.  This little gal needs every ounce of her strength to heal right now.  Just my opinion...


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## Ridgetop (Aug 2, 2018)

I think if her udder gets so full that it is hard and painful, milking out just enough to relieve her each day for a few days would be ok.  Just milk out enough to have some softness to the bag.  I would _not_ milk her out completely.  Be sure to clean the udder well before milking anything out.  Milking her completely out will stimulate milk production.  By the end of the week with just taking about a cup or so to keep her comfortable you will notice that she is not bagging as much.  At that point you can stop milking completely.  Since she is recovering from surgery, you want to keep up her protein. 

When weaning lambs or drying off my does at the end of a full lactation, we would pull all water and feed for 24 hours (usually in winter when it is cool) to encourage them to stop production.  Then they would get water and hay, no grain, for another few weeks.  This works well, but they were not recovering from surgery, infection, and were at the end of a normal lactation when they are starting to stop production naturally.  I also always did a dry mastitis treatment at the end of each lactation but then we had 20 milkers and it was easier to pretreat before the next lactation. 

Since you are hoping to keep Blossom (I love that name by the way!) as a pet, I would just watch her closely to make sure she continues to heal up.  If she starts to get droopy, goes off her feed, or looks depressed, I would call the vet and get more antibiotics.  Vitamin B complex helps a droopy goat too.  BTW, if you decide to breed her again, use one of the dwarf breeds.  Her previous owners used very bad judgment keeping a dwarf breed doe with a full sized buck.  Glad you have her now and can look out for her.

Hope to hear she is all better soon.


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## MiniSilkys (Sep 29, 2018)

I just saw you post and I am sorry you lost your first kids. I hope Blossom is healed and happy now. My first pygmy doe lost her first twins as well. She walked around looking and calling for them for about a week. We all lose some. But I believe it was irresponsible of her previous owner to let her get bred by such a large buck.


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