# General Cow Questions



## black_cat (Dec 9, 2020)

Hey all! I have some (currently) hypothetical questions about cows. I asked them over on BYC but I realized this is a better spot. My main questions are:
-how much space does a single cow need?
-What breeds of cows should you get for milk? I know that jerseys are a thing that exist, same with heifers, but I'm not really sure on the benefits of each and such.
-if you have over double the space per cow, can they be supported fully by pasture without the need to supplement hay/feed?
-Is there a male:female cow ratio that works best, like for chickens?
-do cows get lonely/do you have to keep more than one? 
Beware, if you answer my questions, I'll come at you with a dozen more 
-adding new cows- do they need to be integrated like chickens? Or can you just add them together?
Thank you!!!


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## farmerjan (Dec 9, 2020)

Okay.... going to come back at you.....   can you put your general area in your profile so that when someone answers questions, they can tailor the answer to your area.....

ALL ACCORDING to where you are located....... the answers will be different.  Here in Va we figure that 2 acres per head on a ROUGH AVERAGE...... different grasses, condition of the pasture.... all DEPENDS......

Jerseys are one breed of dairy animals.  Not sure what you meant when you said heifers.... heifers are an AGE of all cattle breeds.....Not a breed.  Heifers refer to a young female that has not yet had a calf..... often a female that has her first calf is called a"first calf heifer" ..... after that she becomes a cow.  Like a pullet and a hen......
As far as dairy breeds, Holsteins, Ayshires, Brown Swiss, Guernseys, Jerseys, Milking Shorthorns, Dutch Belted, Linebacks,  then there are others  like Sweedish Reds,  Montbeliarde, Milking Devons, Kerry,...... and more. 
There are alot of crosses, and often a dairy/beef crossbred will milk just fine for the house. 

Again LOCATION, will determine the answer to if an animal can be supported totally on pasture.... but my initial generic answer is NO. 
In dairy breeds, you do not want to keep a bull to breed.  Dairy bulls are noted for being very tempermental.  If you have one or 2 cows you should get them bred AI.  Cheaper than feeding a bull for 11 months for a few days work in a year.  SAFER for all involved.  If you have a herd of beef cattle, a bull will do best with 25 +cows..... but again... he will work for about a month and then  be an expense for the other 10-11 months.  They still eat  and with nothing to do, once all cows are bred.... they will be looking over the fence.... and when a bull wants to go somewhere, 99% of the time you will not keep him in.  BULLS are NOT for inexperienced people.  1500-2500 lbs of hormones is not for someone that has no/little cattle experience. 
Cows are herd animals.  They do better with at least one more of their own kind.  Many people will keep a family milk cow and raise an animal for beef.  The cow then will have company most of the time.  Get her bred so she will come into her milk, and then she will have a calf to keep her company as it grows.  
Adding any new animal, you should practice healthy methods.... for disease control..... and yes, some will fit into a situation well, and there are bullies and such..... They are just bigger, and so they can hurt one another more..... some animals just do not get along, and to introduce a new one into anothers' existing "domain"  sometimes does not work.


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## Baymule (Dec 9, 2020)

How many acres do you have? What kind of fencing do you have and is it in good condition? You would be amazed at what a small hole, a big cow can squeeze through. Most states have laws that if your livestock is on the road and someone hits them, it is YOUR fault and you are held liable for any damage to vehicle or people. 

If you want a milking animal, what about goats?


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## black_cat (Dec 10, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> Okay.... going to come back at you.....   can you put your general area in your profile so that when someone answers questions, they can tailor the answer to your area.....
> 
> ALL ACCORDING to where you are located....... the answers will be different.  Here in Va we figure that 2 acres per head on a ROUGH AVERAGE...... different grasses, condition of the pasture.... all DEPENDS......
> 
> ...



*Okay.... going to come back at you.....   can you put your general area in your profile so that when someone answers questions, they can tailor the answer to your area.....*
Will do.  I'm currently in CT but I'm hoping to move to Vermont or Maine.
*ALL ACCORDING to where you are located....... the answers will be different.  Here in Va we figure that 2 acres per head on a ROUGH AVERAGE...... different grasses, condition of the pasture.... all DEPENDS......
Jerseys are one breed of dairy animals.  Not sure what you meant when you said heifers.... heifers are an AGE of all cattle breeds.....Not a breed.  Heifers refer to a young female that has not yet had a calf..... often a female that has her first calf is called a"first calf heifer" ..... after that she becomes a cow.  Like a pullet and a hen......*
Ok, thanks! I had heard the word heifer with little explanation (chatting with friends on backyard chickens, actually) so I had thought that it was a breed.
*As far as dairy breeds, Holsteins, Ayshires, Brown Swiss, Guernseys, Jerseys, Milking Shorthorns, Dutch Belted, Linebacks,  then there are others  like Sweedish Reds,  Montbeliarde, Milking Devons, Kerry,...... and more.
There are alot of crosses, and often a dairy/beef crossbred will milk just fine for the house.*
👍*
Again LOCATION, will determine the answer to if an animal can be supported totally on pasture.... but my initial generic answer is NO.*
What do you have to supplement/feed with aside from providing the pasture?
*In dairy breeds, you do not want to keep a bull to breed.  Dairy bulls are noted for being very tempermental.  If you have one or 2 cows you should get them bred AI.  Cheaper than feeding a bull for 11 months for a few days work in a year.  SAFER for all involved.  If you have a herd of beef cattle, a bull will do best with 25 +cows..... but again... he will work for about a month and then  be an expense for the other 10-11 months.  They still eat  and with nothing to do, once all cows are bred.... they will be looking over the fence.... and when a bull wants to go somewhere, 99% of the time you will not keep him in.  BULLS are NOT for inexperienced people.  1500-2500 lbs of hormones is not for someone that has no/little cattle experience.*
Sounds good. No bulls to start. Got it.
*Cows are herd animals.  They do better with at least one more of their own kind.  Many people will keep a family milk cow and raise an animal for beef.  The cow then will have company most of the time.  Get her bred so she will come into her milk, and then she will have a calf to keep her company as it grows. *
Ok, makes sense.
*Adding any new animal, you should practice healthy methods.... for disease control..... and yes, some will fit into a situation well, and there are bullies and such..... They are just bigger, and so they can hurt one another more..... some animals just do not get along, and to introduce a new one into anothers' existing "domain"  sometimes does not work.*
Aside from the required quarantine, do you need to do any see-but-don't touch integration like with chickens (sorry I'm tying everything back to chickens, I just have the most experience with them), or any other things like adding more food/water stations, or just generally the precautions that you take with chickens? Is there a cow equivalent, or do you just quarantine the new cow, then add the new cow in and supervise the supervision?


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## black_cat (Dec 10, 2020)

To clarify-- these questions, are all currently hypothetical as I'm not in a position either land-wise or money-wise to get cows (or horses, or sheep, or anything else I ask about) I"m asking these questions because I'll almost definitely forget them, and I'm trying to plan. I'd like to get myself a nice big country property and fill it with animals, but that's a while off, so right now, I'm planning everything, calculating costs, space, etc.


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## black_cat (Dec 10, 2020)

Baymule said:


> How many acres do you have? What kind of fencing do you have and is it in good condition? You would be amazed at what a small hole, a big cow can squeeze through. Most states have laws that if your livestock is on the road and someone hits them, it is YOUR fault and you are held liable for any damage to vehicle or people.
> 
> If you want a milking animal, what about goats?


For the purposes of these questions, let's say I have 10ish acres I can devote to cows. What kind of fencing is best?

I'm considering goats as well-I'm going to make a thread quite similar to this one in the goat section with goat specific questions. I'm trying to get as much information as possible so I can plan accordingly.


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## Baymule (Dec 10, 2020)

I joined BYH from BYC. I read and studied the forums for 5 years before we moved to our 8 acres. I learned so much, there is LOTS of information in the forums. Pick an animal on the forum. Each one has multiple topics, start reading, topic by topic. If moving is in the future, it gives you time to study and make better decisions.


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## black_cat (Dec 10, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I joined BYH from BYC. I read and studied the forums for 5 years before we moved to our 8 acres. I learned so much, there is LOTS of information in the forums. Pick an animal on the forum. Each one has multiple topics, start reading, topic by topic. If moving is in the future, it gives you time to study and make better decisions.


That's what I did with chickens- read, read, read- and now I'm pretty good with most subjects. I've been reading your thread on Pearl and I've already learned so much about horses.  The forums are great.


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## Fishychix (Dec 10, 2020)

Baymule said:


> How many acres do you have? What kind of fencing do you have and is it in good condition? You would be amazed at what a small hole, a big cow can squeeze through. Most states have laws that if your livestock is on the road and someone hits them, it is YOUR fault and you are held liable for any damage to vehicle or people.
> 
> If you want a milking animal, what about goats?


I’ve heard a lot about mini cows. What is your opinion on those? They sound like a great alternative, as well as goats, of course.


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## black_cat (Dec 10, 2020)

Fishychix said:


> I’ve heard a lot about mini cows. What is your opinion on those? They sound like a great alternative, as well as goats, of course.


I"m not being asked, but MY opinion on  mini cows is that they're adorable but for some reason not as appealing as big cows..........but mini cows aer pretty cool.


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## farmerjan (Dec 10, 2020)

Mini cows have their plusses... and minusses.....They are very expensive in comparison to the equivalent (or equal) in "normal size" cattle.  There is no value as a cull cow if you were to sell at say a normal stockyard/sale barn. Unless you are going to put it in your own freezer.   They have more breeding and calving problems than a  full size animal and they have enough problems..... sometimes you won't have a problem for years and years, sometimes it seems like Murphy's law... if it can go wrong it will.  And there is alot more money tied up than with a chicken.  Even with some of the higher priced rarer purebreds.... I have had show birds of over 50 years......
They are cute, they sell well as breeding animals for people that want to have "mini's".  They eat less, they produce less which can be a plus.  They need less room. 
They are great for someone who really likes them.  There are how many  different breeds of chickens???? Something for most anyone.... Same for the cattle.

If you are considering multiple species, fence for the smallest, hardest to contain species.  "Field fencing" is good for cattle. It is a 6" upright stay;  some is 12" stays. 48" tall most often.   It will contain sheep and goats, but they can put their heads through it and get stuck especially if they have horns. Chickens can get through it.    2x4 goat/sheep/horse/no climb fencing will keep most everything in.  More expensive.  Probably double the cost, or more. I don't know if it comes in different heights. the "4 foot height" is pretty standard.... I think it is actually 47" but I'm talking generalities. 

If you are contemplating Vermont or Maine, then you are looking at 6+ months of hay.... Your growing season is 4-6 months in a good year.   Here in Va we figure 8 months good to fair pasture.... mid-April to Oct/Nov... all according if we can do good rotational grazing and can stockpile grass for late fall/winter grazing.  Depends on the amount of rainfall, and temps......
Hay and grain standard if there is not real good quality grazing.  You have to learn to be a grass farmer.... and manage the grass....

With 10 acres, you will have to plan on only 2 or 3 animals and still realize you will have to feed hay for 6 months.   They cannot be shortchanged with trying to just keep warm in the cold temps up there. Not to mention being able to produce milk or gain to become a beef down the road.  

I am originally from CT, cousins were dairy farmers in VT, family  in NH.  I wanted to go north, but realized that the growing season was much better in Va and still able to have mountains, and winter.... but not so much, or lasting so long.   Born and raised in Stamford, CT., lived outside Newtown for nearly 10 years and then moved south.  Spent a good part of my life as a kid in VT with family.... and family owned properties.  Loved the Green mountains, but realized that it was too hard to make a living there as a farmer;  this was back in the 1980's..... unless you could own the property outright without a mortgage..... even it is very tough to make it.  

I am not trying to be negative.... go into this with your eyes open and you will have the best chance of surviving and even thriving.  Starting now is the smartest thing you are doing to learn.    Check with your local extension service.... see if they offer any classes, seminars.... and sign up and  go to them ( or on line or whatever they are doing)..... volunteer with a 4-H club or FFA..... get some "dirty hands on" experience.  Find out if you even like working with whatever breed you are interested in.  I am not a goat person.....don't hate them, but just don't care for them.  Many are not cattle people.   Then you also have to consider the size and what you are comfortable with working with.  How tied down do you want to be.... dairy cows and goats need milking.... meat breeds, beef cattle, are not as labor intensive on a day to day thing. Sheep are a different story than goats.... wool or hair breeds..... I like sheep.  
Hogs are one of the faster turn arounds for meat in the freezer from a piglet.... but you have to have good fences.....

Lots to consider.....


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## Fishychix (Dec 10, 2020)

black_cat said:


> I"m not being asked, but MY opinion on  mini cows is that they're adorable but for some reason not as appealing as big cows..........but mini cows aer pretty cool.


Lol!  They are adorable arent they? Its like having perpetual calves, but better (maybe, lol) 🥰
By the way, Hi! Black_cat  👋


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## Fishychix (Dec 10, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> Mini cows have their plusses... and minusses.....They are very expensive in comparison to the equivalent (or equal) in "normal size" cattle.  There is no value as a cull cow if you were to sell at say a normal stockyard/sale barn. Unless you are going to put it in your own freezer.   They have more breeding and calving problems than a  full size animal and they have enough problems..... sometimes you won't have a problem for years and years, sometimes it seems like Murphy's law... if it can go wrong it will.  And there is alot more money tied up than with a chicken.  Even with some of the higher priced rarer purebreds.... I have had show birds of over 50 years......
> They are cute, they sell well as breeding animals for people that want to have "mini's".  They eat less, they produce less which can be a plus.  They need less room.
> They are great for someone who really likes them.  There are how many  different breeds of chickens???? Something for most anyone.... Same for the cattle.
> 
> ...


Wow! Lots of good pointers. 😻 for what its worth, i didn’t think you were being negative.


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## farmerjan (Dec 10, 2020)

I like to see someone trying to learn first..... It can be daunting.  Some of us .....   many of us, have jumped in and then learned later.... sometimes to financial disasters, sometimes with luck and learning as we/they go....
I just want to make sure that people don't go in with a "bambi complex"..... and yes, I like the bambi movie.... but it is NOT reality.....
Keep asking, someone will answer because you are showing good judgement in trying to learn.


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## Grant (Dec 10, 2020)

Now I’ll come back. I like minis.  Mine are crossed with full size genetics so they are what I would call mid sized.  My heifers are highland x Hereford.  My bull is mini British park x Wagyu.  Everyone will be 2 years in March-May and should have calves in that range of time.  I have 4 total on about 6 fenced acres.   I have 3 more acres ready to fence, I’ll need the extra space once the calves are eating.  Advantage, you can carry about 2x the mini animals on the same acres as full size.  Most can be milked for the average family and provide plenty.  I selected and got very lucky to find just what I wanted.  It doesn’t always work out that way.  

Don’t overlook the ease of handling the smaller animals either, especially if you aren’t used to cattle.   They are bigger, stronger and faster than you.  Always know where everyone is and be aware of their temperaments.  Don’t be afraid to cull problem animals.  

And minis in my area are not nearly as premium priced as they are in other areas.


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## farmerjan (Dec 12, 2020)

I think that the crosses that @Grant has will be better for breeding and calving than straight mini's.  And yes, it is definitely better to be in an area where they are more common so more reasonable priced.  The one thing with mini's that has to be considered,  is the dwarf gene ( bulldog gene),  that is much more common in mini's.  There will be an occasional dwarf in big cattle as the gene is a recessive and can be hidden way back in some families of cattle. 

Don't get me wrong, I think they are cute.... but we farm for a living and they are not practical nor are they feasible financially when you are producing for the commercial feeder market.  If I had my way, I would have a half dozen belted galloways, a few more longhorns, and some dutch belted dairy cows to also milk.  And I like herefords.... but all these breeds take a huge hit here at the markets and there are not enough consistent buyers of specialty beef here, because there is too much "regular" beef available.  So I only have a couple "oddballs" mixed in with the commercial cattle, to keep peace with my son.  
There is a place for many different breeds and sizes of cattle.  Just be aware of the potential problems and if you are not experienced, then working with more "exotic" or small sized cattle, there are possibly more difficulties.  There are 3 "sizes of Jerseys" I am told.... Mini's,;  a "smaller"  mid sized,; and a "regular " jersey.  I think that the more modern jersey is getting a little too big and "too dairy"..... A more medium sized cow is my preference.... but that is me.....


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## black_cat (Dec 12, 2020)

farmerjan said:


> I think that the crosses that @Grant has will be better for breeding and calving than straight mini's.  And yes, it is definitely better to be in an area where they are more common so more reasonable priced.  The one thing with mini's that has to be considered,  is the dwarf gene ( bulldog gene),  that is much more common in mini's.  There will be an occasional dwarf in big cattle as the gene is a recessive and can be hidden way back in some families of cattle.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think they are cute.... but we farm for a living and they are not practical nor are they feasible financially when you are producing for the commercial feeder market.  If I had my way, I would have a half dozen belted galloways, a few more longhorns, and some dutch belted dairy cows to also milk.  And I like herefords.... but all these breeds take a huge hit here at the markets and there are not enough consistent buyers of specialty beef here, because there is too much "regular" beef available.  So I only have a couple "oddballs" mixed in with the commercial cattle, to keep peace with my son.
> There is a place for many different breeds and sizes of cattle.  Just be aware of the potential problems and if you are not experienced, then working with more "exotic" or small sized cattle, there are possibly more difficulties.  There are 3 "sizes of Jerseys" I am told.... Mini's,;  a "smaller"  mid sized,; and a "regular " jersey.  I think that the more modern jersey is getting a little too big and "too dairy"..... A more medium sized cow is my preference.... but that is me.....


What is the dwarf gene? (Don't worry I have more takeaways from your post than that, I just am too tired to think about real questions)


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## farmerjan (Dec 12, 2020)

I can't spout it off , off the top of my head.  But look up dwarfism in cattle, and you will find lots of info.  It is seen in both angus and herefords, but is caused and affected by some similar and some different genes.  I think that it is more widespread in herefords, but maybe not so much now.   Dwarfism and bulldog gene are actually 2 separate problems I think... but most old time cattle people group them together.  
We have had cleft palates in cattle on occasion, but have only had 2 calves that I would call dwarfs over the years.  I think that the dwarf gene is more prominent in the mini's  due to the breeding for small size.....But I am not a geneticist....


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## Baymule (Dec 12, 2020)

black_cat said:


> What is the dwarf gene? (Don't worry I have more takeaways from your post than that, I just am too tired to think about real questions)


Link for a discussion on dwarf mini horses:








						Dwarf Miniature Horses
					

It has come to my attention on a few occasions that a lot of the general horse population, have seen and found photos such as these adorable.           I know there is also a photo of what is considered to be "the world's smallest horse", a photo of what is in fact a dwarf miniature horse...




					www.horseforum.com
				




Dwarfism in cattle:


			Dwarfism ~ Chondrodysplasia in Miniature Cattle
		




			http://fancherloveranch.com/assets/dwarfism-in-cattle2016.pdf


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## Grant (Dec 13, 2020)

And mine aren’t going to market.  I will eat one and have a friend who has committed to buying a finished calf each year for consumption.  If you have small acreage, I really think that is about the best situation. Selling a single calf at auction rarely does well and you can’t raise volume to make it pay off.  I’m a family of 2.  Butchering a 1500 lb animal doesn’t make sense for me.  The smaller breeds fit my need better.  

I agree you have to be careful on what you buy.


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## farmerjan (Dec 13, 2020)

@Grant  has the right situation.  Smaller size for their own use and a market for a calf or 2.  That is where the smaller size breeds works good.  It works for me with the jerseys as they usually hit 800- 1,000 live weight, so about 250-350 lbs total meat in the freezer.  And the jerseys are a by product of my breedings with the occasional bull calf, so it works.  Like he said, being careful on the original stock, especially if it is in an area where the smaller and mini's are not as common to find.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 18, 2021)

We got two Holstein bull calves from the auctions, they are already quite big and have another full year of growing before butcher. I knew how big Holsteins were my grandparents had a 100 head dairy farm but I was never looking at them in terms of beef before. Now with only myself and DH I'm trying to work on how we will possibly eat or store that much beef. I do know we are only going to get around 50% of hang weight back as meat but thats still what 1,000lbs for both. 
I'm still highly interested in getting either a smaller or mini dual purpose cow. Good meat ratio and some milk. They would give us a reasonable amount of meat for 2 people, take less of our small pasture and eat less hay in winter since we have to feed hay for 6+ months of the year.

Highlands are pretty common so I was looking at those or belted galloway mini's. The smaller size would also make me more comfortable, DH wants a guernsey. Guernsey are a fine cow but big

I would say for sure to the OP research and budget hay prices where ever you are looking to move. No you can not make hay off 10 acres of pasture while having a few cows, sheep and goats all on it. So that's either pay for more land and buy hay equipment which is insanely costly like 100k+ without counting land cost/rent or figure out cost of local hay and how much hay you will need for all livestock eating hay. Figure on 7months worth plus 10% overage for all animals that eat hay, so goats, sheep, horses, cows, pigs, etc. Then take that number times whatever hay is in the area you think you wanna move to, then add 25% to that cost. If you can still afford all that with all other grain, medications, fencing, etc.....go for it. 
If not, consider a warmer climate with a shorter winter season then do all that math again. The 25% overage is because hay will easily go up in price with the weather, some years hay is $2.50/bale here, I have seen it at $7/bale and thats all first cute smaller squares. Small rounds are $35 on a normal year, on a bad year I've seen them at $80. Just make sure you have a few miles or wiggle room in your budget or a back up plan.
One of the worse things about living in the north is you have no ideas how long "winter" will be, this year we had pasture until november 25th and then some carryover for another week, so we started feeding hay at the beginning of december. There have been years we have started feeding hay in mid october and didnt get to stop until mid-may. If your hay is well stored keeping a small amount for feeding first thing in the fall is not a problem. Better to much always then not enough just once.


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## Grant (Jan 18, 2021)

Dexters can be milked pretty easily.  There are also smaller jerseys that my fit your need.


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## HornyToadAcres (Aug 15, 2021)

We are buying a mid-size Jersey calf. Where I live they are not common, in fact, dairy cows are not common period so I was looking at considerable transport cost for a cow unseen when I found breeders of some repute 80 miles away. We will not talk about what I am paying for her, its embarrassing. We have access to 3 acres of not great pasture so I will be feeding her. She is weaned. I know I will be feeding her hay but what else will she need?

We are building side by side pens for her and a pig. Yes, I hear the real farmers laughing at our attempt to provide company. If you think that's funny, you should see the mess pig is currently making in my chicken pen since we jumped the gun as per usual and got pig first.

We had a choice between her and a 3/4 Jersey, 1/4 Hereford mix. That may have been a better cow for us but my daughter and I gave in to the sheer beauty of the Jersey.


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## animalmom (Aug 15, 2021)

Yeah, I've always been a sucker for the Jersey face.  Pretty girl!  Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.


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## Baymule (Aug 31, 2021)

@HornyToadAcres how is your heifer and pig? Not laughing at the friendship, animals get lonely.


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## HornyToadAcres (Aug 31, 2021)

Baymule said:


> @HornyToadAcres how is your heifer and pig? Not laughing at the friendship, animals get lonely.



Update on our progress! After much searching and debate, we decided that what we really needed is a barn. I am very excited. Even if it is "just" a giant carport structure with the sides closed in. It is supposed to be here in 4-6 weeks and I got in just before they added back a 20% surcharge. It was a hard sell for hubby because he could have built one cheaper but when the oilfield is up, he needs to be out there working. He is currently leveling the ground and we will build it up with some more chipbase so it is a little higher than the surroundings. 

We moved Pig to make way and made her pen bigger. My daughter and I did that ourselves and were quite proud. Baby Girl Jersey is still at the ranch. The folks there have been very accommodating and I offered to pay board past the 30 days we had originally agreed on. I am looking into getting insurance on her since she is a sizable investment and I think it will be $200/year covering pretty much all causes of mortality and also theft (you never know). 

I discovered wild amaranth on our property and the chickens and pigs have been enjoying that. Pig seems to be doing okay by herself for now. She squeals for peanuts whenever someone is passing by. Hubby had to make a trip to Florida cuz parents sick and we grew up in one of the peanut growing capitals of the US so he brought me 100 lbs of raw peanuts back for half the price I was paying.


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