# Help Puppies have lost their minds totally.



## terrilhb (Aug 18, 2012)

HELP. Well the puppies turned 7 months old on the 12th of this month. They were doing fantastic with the goats and chickens. I mean perfect.  Then yesterday it went south.  I came home and found 1 of the puppies with feathers in its mouth. I ran looking for chickens. I found a hen with all her long tail feathers gone. No blood or anything and alive. Then I see a hen looking funny. She is literally soaked. Like water dripping. I grabbed her and ran her in the house. I was not sure what exactly happened. But I had a feeling. Today I let the RIR's out and everytime they looked at the chickens I told them no Leave It. I ran in the house for 2 minutes. Came back out and heard them screaming. I saw another puppy with a mouthful of feathers. And found a hen hunched down.   I grabbed her up and took her to the puppy that had the feathers. Yelled loudly at him and put him on his side and put the hen on him and yelled at him. I know I was wrong to ever leave them but I figured because they were doing so well it would be ok.  What am I doing wrong? I don't think they are trying to kill them just trying to play with them. But they can't do that. What can I do?  Why are they starting this now? They have done so good.   I am lost


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## Grazer (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't want to sound rude, but there are so many threads on this forum about this very subject. 
And apparently it just doesn't matter how often the experienced LGD owners keep repeating one can't leave puppies unsupervised with any type of livestock (especially poultry) or expect them to guard actively.

Your puppies haven't lost their mind, they are just juveniles and showing the typical puppy behavior.
That's why if you don't want them to go to the next step and actually kill chicken, you need to make sure they are never unsupervised with your animals until they are at least 18 months.
In the mean time, keep observing them and correct them every time they start playing with the chicken and/or chasing them.

I believe I've read that your puppies are a Great Pyrenees, Labrador and Siberian Husky mix? Just keep in mind that the later two breeds have a high prey drive and because of that it might be more challenging to get them not to chase smaller animals. 
A little off topic perhaps, but me personally I would never get a non LGD breed (or an LGD mixed with non LGD breeds) to guard any kind of livestock.


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## CrazyCatNChickenLady (Aug 18, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> I don't want to sound rude, but there are so many threads on this forum about this very subject.
> And apparently it just doesn't matter how often the experienced LGD owners keep repeating one can't leave puppies unsupervised with any type of livestock (especially poultry) or expect them to guard actively.
> 
> Your puppies haven't lost their mind, they are just juveniles and showing the typical puppy behavior.
> ...


I couldn't agree with this more. Its puppy nature to chase things and try and catch things that run. They dont know their role on the farm yet, nor will they for a while. They shouldn't be left alone with your other animals no matter what. If your not there to correct the behavior they're just going to think its a fun new game. They dont yet have the bond they need to be protectors to their flock and right now they see them as toys.


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## Queen Mum (Aug 18, 2012)

Grazer said:
			
		

> I believe I've read that your puppies are a Great Pyrenees, Labrador and Siberian Husky mix? Just keep in mind that the later two breeds have a high prey drive and because of that it might be more challenging to get them not to chase smaller animals.
> A little off topic perhaps, but me personally I would never get a non LGD breed (or an LGD mixed with non LGD breeds) to guard any kind of livestock.


I don't agree with the last line.  It's a matter of training.  My LGD is 100% Siberian Husky.  She does a great job.  She is an older dog.  She started as an older dog.  But her orientation is different.  She sees her "flock/herd" as part of her pack.


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## Roll farms (Aug 18, 2012)

I've seen many, many people say, "Oh they were doing so well until....."

They're pups.  They play rough.  I always say you can NEVER trust them until at least 18 mos old, and still only under supervision then.

I'm sorry, but pups, esp. siblings, play too rough w/ small livestock.  Having more than 1 the same age is like having 2 kids w/ hyperactivity disorder....what one doesn't start, the other will finish.  They want to outdo the other and they get rowdier because they have help.

You didn't so much do anything wrong, you just didn't listen to advice from those who've been there / done that....We all want to think / hope / believe they won't hurt anything.

But they do.  Don't leave them alone w/ animals, period.

I'm sorry you're having to learn it the hard way.

eta:  I have to add, if they take after their 'husky' side, you should probably be extra cautious.


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## terrilhb (Aug 18, 2012)

Thank you all for your responses. I really appreciate them. I knew I was wrong after it happened. I got a stupid moment in my head and thought it would be all good. I feel really bad. I am starting over with them. Going back to when I 1st got them. I was so upset when it happened I vented.  You are all right. They are really good puppies for their age. I thought long and hard about it today and talked to some people after I posted this and I basically set them up for failure. Any ideas on how to go about training them? Thank you all again.


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## New2This (Aug 18, 2012)

Honestly, how do you watch a livestock guardian for 18 months supervised with their flock or herd?  Do you remove them from their job every time you are gone?


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## Roll farms (Aug 18, 2012)

I never leave them alone w/ animals they're capable of hurting in rough play, no.  EVER.  They get trained by the goats they'll guard...just not young ones.
Give them LOTS of chew / interactive toys when they're young.  

I've owned / 'trained' 5 over the course of 10 yrs.  We had 10 pups 3 yrs ago, to my knowledge 9 of them are still good guardians, one has been rehomed as a pet.  

Our 1st one I trained w/ 2 wk old chicks while I was on vacation.  If he chased them, I corrected him ASAP.  Only when he lay there in the middle of the chicks w/out chasing, pawing, growling, etc. did he get attention / praise.

I've lost 1 chicken total, the ONE time I left a young one (our 3rd dog) unsupervised.  So I don't ever do that anymore.

The birds are protected by fencing, which is patrolled by dogs on the outside.  Kids are penned away from dogs.  Dogs (pups) are started w/ adult, assertive goats as pups who will knock them on their keesters when needed if they get too rough.

I read how to do it before I got the 1st LGD.

9 out of 10 times when you read / hear of an LGD gone 'bad' - it almost always goes back to an inexperienced owner that didn't research or trusted the pup too much, and left them alone w/ kids or chickens.

The dogs do their job w/out much input from us, there's no real 'training', but you can correct bad behavior if you are there and see it (stern voice, scary face, 'big' posture).  Ignore the dog for a while if he does wrong.  Later, put him back w/ the things he was chasing and love all over him when he doesn't chase / play w/ them anymore.  They're scary smart, they catch on fast.

If you need a guardian NOW, and can't wait for a pup to mature, get an older, proven LGD.  Otherwise,  count on a min. of 18 mos before he's bombproof.


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## Grazer (Aug 19, 2012)

Queen Mum said:
			
		

> Grazer said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it worked out for you, but I would never recommend a non LGD breed to people who just started keeping livestock and/or poultry and need a guarding dog. 
Just like I would never recommend a Pekingese as say a boar-dog (a dog that is used to hunt pigs).
I'm not saying it's not possible for a Siberian Husky to look after livestock (I wrote about a random mutt my grandma started using as an LGD when she got really old in another thread), 
but I look at it like this: if certain breeds have been bred to be LGD's for hundreds of years, why get a breed that has been bred for a completely different job? 
But again that's just how I look at it, especially if there are large predators in the area



Really great post Roll farms. Your post is so clear and so easy to understand, it might very well be turned into a "sticky"


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## poorboys (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree with the post here, when one of my dogs welps, they are in with goats, that way they get use to them, but for the kid pen their is a adult ldg in with them.. I put my only pup in when she was 3 months old in with the older ldg's and they taught her, they were all in with adult does, and roll's right they will slam them when it comes to rough play. my chicks are in a different area penned in, no contact with the ldg's but haven't lost one. young pups will hurt kid goats. their training is in insticnt within their bloodlines. you get a mix and then you don't know what you have has far as tearperment. sorry about spelling here. but all your firm No's get heard! just keep working with her.


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## Grazer (Aug 21, 2012)

Great post poorboys and congratulations on your new litter! 
Terrilhb, I hope all these tips posted on here will help you out and I hope everything will work out for you and all your animals


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