# Goat Conformation/Breeding Education



## BetterHensandGardens

We've had our Dwarf Nigerian doelings for a month, and I'm wondering how to learn about what makes a good goat (I know amount of milk is ultimate measure), what am I looking for in terms of conformation?  Are there standards somewhere that compare one goat to another for this feature vs. that, etc.  Also, how do you learn which goats would make the best sires for future goats, given the goats you've got?  Maybe I'm not searching on the right thing, but information seems to be a little scarce? 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!


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## Ariel301

Yes, there are conformation standards for goats in general, and  then some things for each breed. I've noticed a lack of information available as well, I have had to learn by asking people to look at my goats and tell me what was good and bad. 

Some good conformation things to look for in a dairy goat:
Length of body--you want a nice long animal.
Flat topline--from the withers to the tail should be a flat line, not curved/hunched
Uphill stance--when they are standing on flat ground, they should be a little taller at the shoulder than the rump, so they look like they are going uphill
Width through the escutcheon (arch between the hind legs)--the wider the arch, the bigger the udder that can go there. Look at your potential breeding buck and imagine an udder in there, how much do they have room for? This is an important thing to consider for breeding. (Also look at that buck's mother if you can, because that is the udder he's passing on)
Udder on does--you want the udder to be attached firmly and high, not saggy at all. The front attachment should be smooth, with no 'pocket' where you can sort of put your hand between the udder and the belly. Viewed from the side, an ideal udder should show one third in front of the hind leg, one third hidden by the leg, and one third behind the leg. Of course, it should also have a good capacity for milk, and not be lopsided in shape/size. The teats should be a good size for milking, not too small or too long or too fat to get your hands around, and should be placed in a good position for getting ahold of them--not pointing too far forward or out to the sides. 
Legs--when viewed from in front and behind, the legs should be straight, not knock-kneed or bow-legged. Especially look at the hock joint in the rear, they should point straight backwards, not be twisted inward towards each other. 
Hoofs--the toes should point straight, not be curved in too much or splayed outward. 

If you have some good pictures of your girls, you could post them here and people who know what to look for can point things out for you on them. I'll try to get you some of my photos and show you some things on my animals.


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## Ariel301

Ok, here's some photos for you. 








Ok, in this picture I was holding the camera crooked, the fence line should actually be straight, not on a slope! But you see how Ebony has a nice flat back and is long, and appears to be going uphill? That's a good trait. Her legs are nice and straight when viewed from the side, with a good angle to the hock--not "posty" in the back legs. She has a long neck, feminine head, and her shoulder blends smoothly into the rest of the body. This is a very good doe. (I kick myself for selling her every time I look at this photo!) 







This is a fairly good looking doe from behind. See how her legs are straight, not twisted in or out at all? And she's got plenty of width. The udder attachment is nice and high, and she has a strong medial ligament (the dividing line between the two halves of the udder). The udder is symmetrical and evenly sized on both sides. Her teats are pointing a little too much to the sides though, they should hang straight down. She could also do with a bit more capacity (though she holds a lot in that little udder!) 





The first thing you should notice on Flora is that she is very "uphill". Her legs could use improvement though, she is "posty" in the rear--not much angle to the hocks, they're very straight. She's not quite perfectly straight through the knees on the front legs either, and her neck is a little on the short side. But a fairly nice doe overall. 





Now here's a doeling with some issues. See how the hocks point inward? That is undesirable. She also has a very steep angle to her rump, which can make it more difficult for her to deliver her kids. She's fairly narrow through the escutcheon as well.


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## cmjust0

Things I look for right off the bat...the super quick once over:

Body length...I like long goats.

Slope angle between hips and tailhead...the more shallow, the better.  Goats that slope hard tend to have kidding difficulties.

Back legs...google "posty legged" and "sickle hocked" for images of what you want to avoid.  Good straight cannon bones under hocks that actually have some angle when the goat's standing normally is kinda what you're looking for.

NOW...if you can find a long goat without too much slope, who also has good straight rear legs...it's worth looking at further.  If not, well...look at the next goat.   


So, from there, you might walk around behind and see if it's 'cow hocked' or not...where the hocks kinda point inward at one another..  

If we're talking about a doe, look at her udder...though it's kinda hard to tell what it's going to look like if they've never been bred.  After you've been around it a while, you can *sorta* get an idea of what a doeling or dry yearling's udder might look like by the way they roll under back there...

And if it's a buck...well, make sure he's got all his gear and everything looks to be in the right place.  Symmetry's good.  I don't personally like 'nut cleavage' either, which is where they'll have a little dimple on very bottom center of their testicles..  

Also, if the hairless 'v' that runs down a buck's backside is super narrow, he's probably gonna be what I like to call a "hatchet ass"...thin and gangly in the hiney area, possibly with his feet set in closer than his hips.  I don't like that...it's kinda feminine, IMHO..

Obviously, look at pasterns and feet...if the leg is rocked back over the foot, putting the dewclaws a little too far down (google 'coon footed'), that's not great..

I like a doe's neck to be fairly thin, and a buck's neck to be thick..  I like a doe's head to look like a doe's head, and a buck's head to look like a cinder block.  

Good coat...bright eyes and pink mucous membranes...etc etc etc..  


That's just kinda how I look at a goat, though.  I dunno if that's how **an actual judge** would look at one or not.


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## ()relics

the first place you would look would be the standard that the registering body of your specific breed of goat has set.  ABGA/USBGA would be examples for boer goats or NDGA would be for your nigi dwarfs.  These registries have a specific standard that all registered animals must conform to if they are to be registered.  Regardless if your goats are registered or not you would be able to compare them to the set standard....Just like chickens compared to The Standard of Perfection published by the APA.  All breeds are different, a trait may be allowed in one breed and  considered a disqualification in another....Google NDGA I'm sure they have something on their site that will help.


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## BetterHensandGardens

Ariel301 said:
			
		

> Yes, there are conformation standards for goats in general, and  then some things for each breed. I've noticed a lack of information available as well, I have had to learn by asking people to look at my goats and tell me what was good and bad.
> 
> Some good conformation things to look for in a dairy goat:
> Length of body--you want a nice long animal.
> Flat topline--from the withers to the tail should be a flat line, not curved/hunched
> Uphill stance--when they are standing on flat ground, they should be a little taller at the shoulder than the rump, so they look like they are going uphill
> Width through the escutcheon (arch between the hind legs)--the wider the arch, the bigger the udder that can go there. Look at your potential breeding buck and imagine an udder in there, how much do they have room for? This is an important thing to consider for breeding. (Also look at that buck's mother if you can, because that is the udder he's passing on)
> Udder on does--you want the udder to be attached firmly and high, not saggy at all. The front attachment should be smooth, with no 'pocket' where you can sort of put your hand between the udder and the belly. Viewed from the side, an ideal udder should show one third in front of the hind leg, one third hidden by the leg, and one third behind the leg. Of course, it should also have a good capacity for milk, and not be lopsided in shape/size. The teats should be a good size for milking, not too small or too long or too fat to get your hands around, and should be placed in a good position for getting ahold of them--not pointing too far forward or out to the sides.
> Legs--when viewed from in front and behind, the legs should be straight, not knock-kneed or bow-legged. Especially look at the hock joint in the rear, they should point straight backwards, not be twisted inward towards each other.
> Hoofs--the toes should point straight, not be curved in too much or splayed outward.
> 
> If you have some good pictures of your girls, you could post them here and people who know what to look for can point things out for you on them. I'll try to get you some of my photos and show you some things on my animals.


Thankyou, I'm printing this out to go study the girls, and I'll try and take some good pictures of them to post.  This is all very helpful


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## BetterHensandGardens

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> Things I look for right off the bat...the super quick once over:
> 
> Body length...I like long goats.
> 
> Slope angle between hips and tailhead...the more shallow, the better.  Goats that slope hard tend to have kidding difficulties.
> 
> Back legs...google "posty legged" and "sickle hocked" for images of what you want to avoid.  Good straight cannon bones under hocks that actually have some angle when the goat's standing normally is kinda what you're looking for.
> 
> NOW...if you can find a long goat without too much slope, who also has good straight rear legs...it's worth looking at further.  If not, well...look at the next goat.
> 
> 
> So, from there, you might walk around behind and see if it's 'cow hocked' or not...where the hocks kinda point inward at one another..
> 
> If we're talking about a doe, look at her udder...though it's kinda hard to tell what it's going to look like if they've never been bred.  After you've been around it a while, you can *sorta* get an idea of what a doeling or dry yearling's udder might look like by the way they roll under back there...
> 
> And if it's a buck...well, make sure he's got all his gear and everything looks to be in the right place.  Symmetry's good.  I don't personally like 'nut cleavage' either, which is where they'll have a little dimple on very bottom center of their testicles..
> 
> Also, if the hairless 'v' that runs down a buck's backside is super narrow, he's probably gonna be what I like to call a "hatchet ass"...thin and gangly in the hiney area, possibly with his feet set in closer than his hips.  I don't like that...it's kinda feminine, IMHO..
> 
> Obviously, look at pasterns and feet...if the leg is rocked back over the foot, putting the dewclaws a little too far down (google 'coon footed'), that's not great..
> 
> I like a doe's neck to be fairly thin, and a buck's neck to be thick..  I like a doe's head to look like a doe's head, and a buck's head to look like a cinder block.
> 
> Good coat...bright eyes and pink mucous membranes...etc etc etc..
> 
> 
> That's just kinda how I look at a goat, though.  I dunno if that's how **an actual judge** would look at one or not.


Well, I've been googling the wrong things!  No wonder I can't find any information.  Just a newbie - don't speak the language yet.   Thanks for the help.


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## BetterHensandGardens

()relics said:
			
		

> the first place you would look would be the standard that the registering body of your specific breed of goat has set.  ABGA/USBGA would be examples for boer goats or NDGA would be for your nigi dwarfs.  These registries have a specific standard that all registered animals must conform to if they are to be registered.  Regardless if your goats are registered or not you would be able to compare them to the set standard....Just like chickens compared to The Standard of Perfection published by the APA.  All breeds are different, a trait may be allowed in one breed and  considered a disqualification in another....Google NDGA I'm sure they have something on their site that will help.


*This is what the NDGA has for the standard:*_The Nigerian Dwarf is the only true miniature goat breed of dairy type and character. Its conformation is similar to that of the larger breeds, but the parts of the body are in balanced proportion relative to their size. The profile of the face is straight although some have a small break or stop at eye level. The ears are alert and upright. The coat is straight with short to medium length hair; with short, sleek and smooth hair being ideal. The desired height for does is 17 to 19 inches with a maximum of 21 inches. The desired height for bucks is 19 to 20 inches with a maximum of 23 inches. There is no minimum height for does or bucks. Any color or combination of colors is acceptable, with Pygmy goat breed specific markings being a moderate fault._
*This is what AGS has for the standard:*_The Nigerian Dwarf is a miniature dairy goat originating from West Africa and developed in the United States. The balanced proportions of the Nigerian Dwarf give it an appearance similar to the larger, Swiss breeds of dairy goats. Shorter height is the primary breed characteristic of the
Nigerian Dwarf, with does measuring no more than 22 1/2 at the withers and bucks measuring no more than 23 1/2" at the withers. 

They are known for their high quality milk, often with exceptionally high butterfat content. Nigerian Dwarves are gregarious, friendly, hardy animals that thrive in almost any climate.The medium length earsare erect and alert. The face is either straight or slightly dished. Thecoat is of medium length, and straight. The Nigerian Dwarf is the only dairy breed known to occasionally have blue eyes. Both brown & blue eyed animals are encountered with no preference being given to either eye color. Any pattern, color, or combination of colors is acceptable. 

Mature Nigerian Dwarf does should be no more than 22 1/2 tall at the withers.  Mature Nigerian Dwarf bucks should be no more than 23 1/2" tall at the withers. _ 
These sound good but are not particularly helpful when looking at a goat.  I was looking  for illustrations of what is good and bad?


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## ksalvagno

You can purchase the Judge's Training Manual from NDGA. That gives you everything you ever wanted to know and more.


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## Roll farms

I get the Dairy Goat Journal and learned A LOT from reading and understanding their "judging" section every month.

They post pics of 4 goats and judge them, and explain why each goat places the way they do...and explain the faults / strong points.

They even do a feature on Nigerians once a year, maybe you could find a back issue through DGJ's website.

FWIW, though....show quality doesn't always equal milkability.

A hocky doe can milk like a cow, and a beautiful show doe might not....so it also depends on what your goals are.  
There are good does w/ wonderful confirmation who milk well, but it's a lot easier to find an ugly doe who milks well or a pretty one who doesn't.


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## Ariel301

Roll farms said:
			
		

> FWIW, though....show quality doesn't always equal milkability.
> 
> A hocky doe can milk like a cow, and a beautiful show doe might not....so it also depends on what your goals are.
> There are good does w/ wonderful confirmation who milk well, but it's a lot easier to find an ugly doe who milks well or a pretty one who doesn't.


Absolutely. I've got an ugly mutt doe that milks like a champion, and the best bloodlined doe in my herd conformation-wise will only give me a cup of milk a day as a first freshener. And those who are both beautifully built and great milkers...most of us probably can't afford to buy! lol For me, conformation must be functional at least, but personality and production are what counts, as I mostly sell doelings as backyard milkers. However, I still breed the best stock I can breed, because a good goat and an inferior goat eat the same, so keep the best you can and work on improving what you've got so that someday you will have some great animals.


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## BetterHensandGardens

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> You can purchase the Judge's Training Manual from NDGA. That gives you everything you ever wanted to know and more.


Thanks Karen, I'll be getting that Judge's Training Manual - I want to at least know what I'm shooting for!


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## BetterHensandGardens

So here are some pictures of Bit-O-Honey (I'm not very good at getting their pictures in the proper stance yet), I think she's got better conformation of the two I got, but they grew up together so I got both of them.  It looks like Honey has blue eyes but she doesn't. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			










And here's a pic of them both from the backside





Since I'm completely new at this, what are the good and bad things about Honey, and what would I look for when breeding her?  I still need to get pictures of Tinkerbell for comparison - but I thought Honey's pictures could provide a start.  Also, you won't hurt my feelings, I just want to learn - and thanks for any input you can provide.


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## cmjust0

I'm digging her...  She looks good to me...can't find much to pick on, really..  Can't see much of the other one, obviously, but I like how she's naturally rockin' the "invisible giant udder" stance.


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## BetterHensandGardens

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> I'm digging her...  She looks good to me...can't find much to pick on, really..  Can't see much of the other one, obviously, but I like how she's naturally rockin' the "invisible giant udder" stance.


 I Just hope that "invisible giant udder" becomes visible someday.  Thanks for the input.


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## Roll farms

Try running your hand slowly up her back, starting at the tail and going toward the head, putting pressure w/ a couple fingers along her spine.  You can usually find the 'sweet spot' that will make them square up / pose like you want.  You may have to 'dig in' and wiggle here and there to find it.  Wish I knew a better way to explain it but...that's how I do it.

I don't know anything about Nigis so I won't even offer an opinion, because I'm not educated enough about them to have one.


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## helmstead

She looks nice.  I like her smoothness of blending and overall character.  On the rear view, your white doe looks to have better length of neck and spring of rib, while the brown doe has better width over the rump.  

Here is our girl Pigeon at 6 months old - she swept her age class and won GCH a few days later.  I suspect yours are near the same age?  Well...here's a good comparison.
http://helmsteadstables.com/Pigeon.htm


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## Ariel301

Good looking little girls! I can't see anything really to complain about on them.


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## BetterHensandGardens

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Try running your hand slowly up her back, starting at the tail and going toward the head, putting pressure w/ a couple fingers along her spine.  You can usually find the 'sweet spot' that will make them square up / pose like you want.  You may have to 'dig in' and wiggle here and there to find it.  Wish I knew a better way to explain it but...that's how I do it.
> 
> I don't know anything about Nigis so I won't even offer an opinion, because I'm not educated enough about them to have one.


Thanks, I didn't know that - now maybe I can get a decent pose and pics!


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## BetterHensandGardens

helmstead said:
			
		

> Here is our girl Pigeon at 6 months old - she swept her age class and won GCH a few days later.  I suspect yours are near the same age?  Well...here's a good comparison.
> http://helmsteadstables.com/Pigeon.htm


Wow, she's beautiful.  I'm just learning but it's easy to see why she won.  Mine are about a month younger, but that's a great comparison for me.


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## Queen Mum

OK, here is Mama.  There are a LOT of things wrong with her and a lot of things right with her.  Go ahead and critique her for the exercise.  Remember, she is an Alpine Dairy goat, gives a TON of milk.  She weighs 250 pounds and drops BEAUTIFUL babies.  She is the herd queen and is the best darn watch goat anyone could ever have.  But as a show goat she would bomb.   







In this next picture she was incredibly stressed.  A bear had eaten one of our goats and she had lost most of her hair and 15% of her body weight trying to protect the herd.  But it should give you an idea of her udder attachment from the side and rear.  










This is what she looks like now.


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## NaturesPace

Is this a good place to get some advice on a couple of Nigerian dwarfs? I have some photos of the girls I'm thinking of buying. I think they look great, but need some more eyes on them.


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## NaturesPace

Anyone want to tell me the pros and cons of these two girls. they are about 3 months old.


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## OneFineAcre

Welll!!!!!
It is very hard to judge a doe, especially a young doe from a picture.

You really need to see an animal moving,

But, the black doe is better in the pics.

Other does legs are kind of straight, not enough curve at hocks

Butttttt.  Black doe is posed better in picture.

Both have very level toplines, but most juniors do.

They both look good, nothing wrong in the pic with either of them

Get a picture from behind,


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## NaturesPace

I really appreciate your wisdom.

i only have the buckskin from behind. we are going to visit them next week and make our final decisions.
We want them to be good dairy goat but aren't too worried about them being the best milkers. between the two we should have plenty of milk for us and cheese making. 
I do however want to breed them to the proper male to ensure the best offspring.

what i'm worried about is if they have any issues that could cause problems in the long run.


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## OneFineAcre

From the pictures, there doesn't seem to be any problem with their conformation.  Like I said, in the first picture the black doe seems to have a better shape to her hocks, but it could be the pose.  The other doe had her leg kicked back, but her back legs seem a little posty.

But, that would only be an issue if you were showing them and she was compared to other does who maybe had a better shape.

From the rear she seems to have space to accomodate an udder, you look for a "bow" back there, again you don't want them to look to posty from behind.

They have slightly different angles on their rump, but that again could be a factor of the way the one doe is posed.

They both look like they have had a show clipping recently, were they shown?

In the pictures, the black doe looks better to me.


But, I think you should get them both


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## ragdollcatlady

I was going to say the same thing as One Fine, about the legs on both. I would choose the black one if you could only choose one. Her overall shape at this point looks fantastic. Of course they change quite a bit too as they grow. The pic isn't great but I think the little buckskin almost looks like the neck extends down in a fairly smooth line, blending right into the front leg. I think the preference is for the front legs to be a little farther back, almost squarely under the body, you can see the definition nicely on the pic with the black baby. Of course the buckskin also appears younger and the poses are a bit different.....they are both beautiful.


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## Goats are Great

What do you think of these does? They're all late spring kids...2015


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## Goats are Great

Goats are Great said:


> What do you think of these does? They're all late spring kids...2015
> 
> View attachment 11719 View attachment 11720 View attachment 11721 View attachment 11722


I have no clue why my pics look upside down? Also these are 6-8 week pics...


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