# Goat advice



## Caprine (Jun 12, 2020)

Starting off: I want to get goats. For milking and/or pets. The problem with milk goats is obviously you need to breed them to keep the milk coming, and I'm not sure what I'd do with extra kids, especially since I don't want them butchered. I can't turn a kid into chevon! Anyway, I have my sights set on Nigerian Dwarfs, Nubians, and Saanens. Any tips or insight about these breeds? Also, what kind of fencing would you recommend? And I've seen that the minimum size requirements are twenty square feet per goat in the shelter, and two-hundred in the pasture. I can't donate a very large amount of land to goats, so comments on this would be nice. I just want two to four, would getting pygmies or dwarfs offset this? I also would like ANY other helpful information about goats. I barely know anything about them. 
I know this is way too many questions for one thread, but oh well. Thanks for reading!


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## chickens really (Jun 14, 2020)

I just have pet goats. My containment pen is a 10x10 dog run with a dog house for my two older goats.  Covered the top with a tarp plus it's chainlink on the top. I have a goat yard built for daytime entertainment and high fences. Certain goats are jumpers and others will crawl out.
My other goat pen is chicken coop. 8X12 shed with an 8X12 run.
I let my goats out daily to graze my yard and pasture. Leash trained and dog collars. They drag long leashes behind them.
In order to have milk you have to breed and sell the kids.


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## Caprine (Jun 16, 2020)

Thanks for the info. What kinds, if any, predators do you have to worry about when they're out? Obviously there's bears and coyotes, but those are fairly nocturnal. We don't get many bears around here anyway. But you can hear the coyotes howling at night...


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## chickens really (Jun 16, 2020)

Loose dogs are another predator you need to be concerned about.


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## Caprine (Jun 16, 2020)

That would definitely be correct. A while ago I came back to my house to find our neighbor's dog attacking my chickens. When confronted, they said it couldn't be their dog as it doesn't leave their land. But if I see it on my property again, an airsoft gun won't kill it, and it couldn't be their dog, after all. But yeah, any others?


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jun 16, 2020)

I have 5 goats, and one of them is a doe. They are all Nigerian Dwarfs. 4 of them are wethers(castrated males). Depending of the type of goat you want(nubian, nigerian dwarf, or saanen), you want them to have hay, place to sleep at night and where you can lock them up at night, and a pasture. You also want to clean their water everyday since they are picky animals. And you want to feed them hay, grain, hay or pasture, pasture, or hay, grain, and pasture all combined. Again depending of breed you want, you have to trim their hooves every 3-6 months. Also you have to give them shots, black oil sunflower seeds, minerals ALWAYS, and baking soda ALWAYS!!!! Good luck on getting your goats!


Oh also, if you are getting does, and you want your own buck(male goat) keep him away from your girls!!! THEY WILL BREED THROUGH A FENCE!!!!


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 16, 2020)

You may want to start your goat adventure with two wethers.... Less food requirements , no hormonal issues to deal with and they make great pets.....
I have had both nigerian dwarfs  and full sized nubians, size does matter...the Nigerians are quite and take up less space....if it's  your first time, go for the little guys 
And post your pictures for us ...please..


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## Caprine (Jun 16, 2020)

I want more than one goat, so they wouldn't be lonely. But I also want milk, just one goat for that. So would a doe and a wether work for that, or should I get two does and just breed one?


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## Caprine (Jun 16, 2020)

Also, does anyone have any experience with Nigerian/Nubian and Nigerian/Saanen hybrids? Or know the butterfat content of either's milk?


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 16, 2020)

A doe and a wether are a great mix, then if you decide you want more goats you could keep a kid from the breeding


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 16, 2020)

Caprine said:


> Also, does anyone have any experience with Nigerian/Nubian and Nigerian/Saanen hybrids? Or know the butterfat content of either's milk?


I can't  tell you the butter fat content but we do have a mini nubian in with our Nigerians and I just love the mini nubians size and her grace. We will be breeding her to our nigerian buck this fall and hoping for a doe or two


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## Caprine (Jun 16, 2020)

Thanks. Does anyone know how much goats cost? Like the dollar amount for hay, grain, shots...


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## Caprine (Jun 16, 2020)

Or still how much space they need?


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## chickens really (Jun 17, 2020)

Cost is all dependent on your location and the availability of hay any given year. Grain prices etc. Vet prices fluctuate too so you will need to phone around.


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## chickens really (Jun 17, 2020)

Caprine said:


> Or still how much space they need?


The more the merrier. Goats love space to run around and explore. Playing on things are a must to keep a goat entertained.


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## Caprine (Jun 17, 2020)

Thanks. Would a 32 by 32 foot area work for two goats? Or would they need more?


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## chickens really (Jun 17, 2020)

Caprine said:


> Thanks. Would a 32 by 32 foot area work for two goats? Or would they need more?


Definitely as a containment pen but hopefully you plan to let them out daily to explore and play. Mine are housed in an 10X10 dog run at night and the other two in a 8X12 shed with attached Run the same size. Although daily they get out weather permitting. Plus I have a huge yard built for them for daily use.


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## Caprine (Jun 17, 2020)

Guess that's settled then. What fencing would you recommend? I was looking at sixteen foot livestock panels...


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## chickens really (Jun 18, 2020)

You must mean 6 foot livestock panels? That should be high enough. My fence is really high because I have a Fainting Doe that can jump out of just about anything except for her 10 foot high goat yard.


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## Caprine (Jun 18, 2020)

No, I mean it's sixteen feet long. It's only fifty inches tall. Rethinking things...


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## chickens really (Jun 18, 2020)

Caprine said:


> No, I mean it's sixteen feet long. It's only fifty inches tall. Rethinking things...


Oh I see. Well definitely plan for at least 6 feet tall. Better safe than sorry.


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## Mini Horses (Jun 18, 2020)

You are talking about CPs (cattle or combination panels)  I HAVE had a full sized jump but, unusual.   Goats are tough on fence if there is anything they can reach to eat by standing up on it -- trees, vines, etc.  NDs are smaller, so less issue with jumping that fence size.   I also find that a goat in milk is less interested in jumping with the udders in constant production/fill.   Young kids can fit through the holes in those panels!  Goats jump!  Goats always think they need to escape.  My older, heavy milking does are less aggressive -- they have learned to open the gate!  Goats are very, very smart with the memory of an elephant.

I have Saanen, SaanenxNubian.....did have some with ND cross.  Those are referred to as "mini" Nubian or "mini" Saanen, generally in the 50/50 mix ration.  As to butterfat, that is just a crap shoot -- and feed input.   So while ND has higher fat, a cross breed won't get full benefit, normally.   The quantity of milk each doe will produce varies, also.  If you are interested in milking you need to buy a doe with a good background of genetics for production.   First fresheners will generally give less than after 2nd freshening.   A lot depends on what you want to taste, use milk for, amount you want to have on hand.

Goat milk is naturally homogenized, so while some cream will rise, it is nowhere near what is IN the milk.   I have a cream seperater.  Costly but very efficient when I want to spin it out.   My Saanens generally give me a gal at each milking, 2X a day, on average.    Cream will vary by feed and the time within their lactation.  Some will milk longer than the "usual" 9-10 months.  I've successfully milked 18 months without rebreeding.   Not all will do this and the quantity produced will reduce in late stages.   Mostly my full Nubians will give a little less.  I love them both!   The milk if GREAT!    Milk, cream, yogurt, butter, kefir, cheese,  soaps -- excellent uses.   Also my cats, chickens, pigs love it.


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## SaanenMom (Jun 18, 2020)

Caprine said:


> No, I mean it's sixteen feet long. It's only fifty inches tall. Rethinking things...



If you get NDs, the 16 ft cattle panels will work for them. I had one Saanen, known as "fence-jumper" clear cattle panels and all fencing until she was 2 yrs old with an udder, then she stopped. Cattle panels work for my other Saanens pens. 
As for a buck, you can always find someone that will do driveway breedings or will board for a fee. It's nice having a buck, but they are a different critter to take care of. My Saanen boys are gentle giants (35"-37" tall) but during rut (mid Aug thru Feb) you cannot turn your back on them....same with horses, sheep, cattle, etc. Hormones run rampant and no matter how well trained, a person has to be careful. 

You need two goats at a minimum being as they are herd animals. One doe should be enough along with a wether (denutted male). IF you are willing to milk thru the winter and once a day is fine, even for Saanens, then you don't have to breed every fall. Otherwise, breed for when you want to kid. On average, goats are 150 days preggers. NDs tend to be 145-150 days, while Saanens tend to be 150-157 days. So, if you want kids to be born, for example, 15 March, you want to catch her around 10-20 October. Does cycle every 18-21 days. Just realize that all babies are cute, but you can't keep them all. If you let kids nurse, handle them everyday so they aren't so wild. Boys are a dime a dozen....when 2 mths old, he should be banded. Too many people want to sell bucks to try and make some money. They usually end up in the sales ring going for meat. 

How close are your neighbors? Saanens tend to be quiet and laid back, tho I had one once that I could hear all over my 5 acres! A friend raises NDs and some of hers are yellers, while others are quiet. Nubians tend to be noisy, but there are quiet ones. 

As for cost, it depends on where you are. Just realize that you get what you pay for. You pay $100, you could get a good one...but more often than not, you will get one that you will regret buying (doesn't milk much, temperment is standoffish, etc). Spend as much as you can in the $250+ range from a breeder that is willing to mentor you and possibly bring the doe back for breeding.

Laura


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 18, 2020)

Caprine said:


> No, I mean it's sixteen feet long. It's only fifty inches tall. Rethinking things...




No climb fencing has been our fence of choice, we have tried the welded wire fencing (welds break over time. So a waste of money)....cattle panels are great if you need to move them in the future (cost is higher) so if you have the funds..no climb is well worth the time and investment  to put it up...and none of our goats have gotten out or over it...  .


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## Mini Horses (Jun 18, 2020)

LOL -- we were posting at same time but, each had different things to share.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 18, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> LOL -- we were posting at same time but, each had different things to share.


Lmao, yes we were, now just watch ...one of my goats will go flying over the fence today and make a liar out of me


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jun 18, 2020)

I agree but don't forget doe in milk cost more same with pregnant does. Around me they can go for 500-750 depending on the does pedigree. I found some on sale because people where moving. You also need a milk stand equipment for milking and sanitation and if you plan to pasturize it you 'll need some way to cool the milk off whether that's a sink full of ice water or an ice cream maker. You need to have basic medical supplies on hand. You also need to think where your going to keep the feed because goats can and will break into feed bins if they can. Mine have been know to beat up metal trash can until they could get it to open.  And if they over eat the can bloat... They like to eat lol. I love nubians i currently have a nubain/sansan buck, and nubian/toggenberg doe and her 3/4 nubian/1/4toggenber doelings who are just about does now. I absolutely love them. My first herd was nubians and they were awesome as well. My buck was very laid back guy even in a rut(male hormone crazed stage) wanted loving that being said there were times he wanted to challenge me and had to be put in his place (pinning him to the ground until he calmed down) so if your not very physically strong i would suggest a smaller start off herd and or just get does and wethers and but see if you can find someone willing to let you breed using their buck because alot of farmers don't for biosecurity reasons. Also make sure the person you get your goats from has the paperwork to prove they are disease free as some can carry illness that can stay on your land and spread to other animals.


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## messybun (Jun 18, 2020)

We like our goats to be able to graze, it really offsets the feed budget too! So we could keep three pygmies in about 1/4 acre with only small supplements in the summer and of course you have to feed through Winter. Keep in mind nursing mamas need way more feed. As far as shelters, goats don’t always like to share so we have built multiple small shelters/shelters with dividers. For pygmies pallet boxes covered with wood works, but my favorite is a recycled children’s play tower that we covered with boards. Goats destroy everything so don’t worry about a million dollar barn lol. And goats LOVE to play. Give them stuff to climb on and eat and leap off of I.e. short shelters, buried tires, ramps, logs. Goats have a few basic food needs, Forage, grain, nutrient, fiber. Forage is grass or hay. Grain is corn, bread, sweet feed, goat pellets. Nutrient is either loose minerals or blocks, keep in mind babies and moms need more or these than your average goat. Fiber is an over looked and super important one; straw, bark, wood, paper. Basically fiber is non nutrient dense food that fills them up and keeps the stomachs working. If you don’t have good sources of fiber your goats will eat their shelters and I mention paper because goats will eat homework lol.
For us personally we don’t have any milking goats or babies so we can do a bit of a lighter diet, but you will have to keep up with nutritional needs for whatever you have. We have healthy goats on deer corn or sweet feed every few days and bread in the summer for grains, but when we had babies it was Sweet feed, corn and goat pellets every day. Forage is your top concern, if you don’t have plenty of grass have good hay around (cow grade is fine, but make sure it’s clean) and as much as they eat with plenty left over. Keep forage, water and minerals available 24/7. Grain is obviously the most varied category, so you really have to figure out for yourself what you have and what they need because everyone is different.
Goats need to be wormed so get the on a schedule right away.
Fencing is important, we started with cattle fence and got so many heads stuck in the fence it wasn’t even funny. Sheep and goat wire 4 ft tall is fabulous though. 
A wise horseman said if you love your horse train him well, that way no matter what happens he will always be wanted. I totally get not wanting your babies to go as meat, and with does that’s rarely an issue, but boys can be troublesome. If they’re handsome you can consider leaving them intact to sell as a breeder or you can whether them to sell as pets. I believe the key to selling as pets is training, get them hand tame, teach them to walk on a lead and load up with ease and you shouldn’t have to worry about them. 
good luck by the way! Oh, and learn about emergencies before they happen and they won’t be so big of a deal.


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## Caprine (Jun 18, 2020)

Wow, I was NOT expecting so many posts. Thanks for all of the great advice! Let's see, neighbors. No, I do not have any neighbors within earshot. I can't hear them unless the wind is right and they're screaming. Heads can get stuck in cattle panels? That's not good to hear. So I've read that goats are browsers, like deer, rather than grazers, like sheep. My land is mostly grass, but I do have a windbreak barrier of pines, so they might like that? I think I'm pretty good, unless anyone has any more advice or warnings for me. You can never have too much.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jun 18, 2020)

You will be just fine, lol...you can always just go get your critters and figure it out as you go along...that seems to be a BYH favorite pastime  lol...we are enablers here


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jun 18, 2020)

I do that all the time lol. It's more fun plus if you learn everything first you can change your mind and miss out on the fun lol. I wouldn't change it i love all of the crazy animals we have and also love the ecperiance even the hard ones helps you to grow. You never to old to grow and learn.


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## Ridgetop (Jun 18, 2020)

You don't need 6' fences with dairy milkers.  Like Saanenmom and Minihorses said, does in milk will not go leaping over fences.  
You DO need good perimeter fencing to keep out stray dogs and coyotes.  Better yet, a good LGD if y have problems with predators.  Goats will eat grass, but prefer forage so if your grass is wild, or has weeds they will enjoy that.  
A word of warning, if you plan to turn them out into a large area during the day, get bottle raised dairy goats.  Mama raised goats are often spooky and will need to be chased back to the barn for milking.  

Also, since you have no experience, it will be easer to get a goat already in milk and being milked.  Go to see her when it is milking time, *try to milk her *(not all goats have nice udders and easy milking teats) and *taste the milk*.    Some breeds of goats have horrible tasting milk.  It will be worth the higher purchase price to get a goat that is already milking, is easy to handle and has good tasting milk.  Often the budget priced goats are that way because they have problems, have nasty milk, or are a b**** to milk.  

Our first milk goats were Nubians (wonderful milk) which the breeder had kept to get milk stars on the sire and dam.  They were each star milkers, and the breeder also took them back and bred them for us.  We have had about 100 milkers over the 30 years since, and not all of them had nice milk were good yielders, etc.  One older Nubian we were given by some one else had good milk but her attachments were so bad that the udder hung so far down that it had to sit on your arms between the edge of the pail and the goat.  It compressed your arms and my wrists and hands would go numb while milking!  She went to the sale yard.  Everything is experience and that taught us a hard lesson about the importance of attachments.  Before that it was "just a show standard thing".  

Those first 2 Nubian does were delightful - sweet and friendly, had kids easily, gave massive amounts of milk for an entire 10 month lactation, and when they learned to open their gate my 2 and 4 year olds could take them by the collars and lead them back to the pen!   Their pen fences were only 48" tall and they never jumped out.  They were not _top_ show quality, but were nice looking and my DD1 had fun showing them in 4-H.  Good bucks improved their kids, but those does were favorites for us for years.  The ease of learning on those girls is what made our whole family enjoy and love dairy goats so much.


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## Caprine (Jun 22, 2020)

Dare I ask why this is on the homepage? Honored...


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## Caprine (Jul 14, 2020)

Question: how much hay does a goat eat daily? And is it better to give them Timothy or alfalfa? (Two questions, I guess.) Starting to think of getting three does for production...


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 14, 2020)

I recommend to give 3 goats one slab a hay daily or every other day. And give the Orchard grass, you can also give bucks and wethers orchard grass because I know Alfalfa blocks wethers and bucks bladder


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## Caprine (Jul 14, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> I recommend to give 3 goats one slab a hay daily or every other day. And give the Orchard grass, you can also give bucks and wethers orchard grass because I know Alfalfa blocks wethers and bucks bladder


Thanks. Is Alfalfa fine for does? Or should they also have Orchard?


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 14, 2020)

Yes it is fine, but since you said you will be breeding, you will need orchard grass when the babies are eating hay.


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## chickens really (Jul 15, 2020)

Goats need hay 24/7 to keep a healthy gut/rumen. Also some type of feeder/manger to keep the feed waste down. Goats don't generally eat anything once it hits the ground and gets stepped on or pooped on. The best hay is a quality orchard grass or a Timothy/ orchard grass mix. A little alfalfa in the hay won't hurt them though.


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## Caprine (Jul 15, 2020)

Hmm... Anyone know how many pounds of orchard grass per goat per day/week/month/year or whatever?


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## Caprine (Jul 15, 2020)

For Nigerian Dwarfs, Mini Nubians, and Mini Saanens, along those lines.


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## Caprine (Jul 15, 2020)

How much is the average cost of vaccinations annually per goat? (In case you didn't notice, I'm trying to get a lot of goat research done today.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 15, 2020)

First, where do you live?

Don’t use a vet for vaccinations – it just costs you a lot of money and is not necessary for healthy goats. You need to do a subcutaneous (just under the skin) injection and can do it in the skin of the armpit. On kids I give the vaccinations in the loose skin of the groin. Goats only require Clostridium Perfringens vaccine known as CDT. I usually buy it from Jeffers and a 50 ml bottle gives you 25 doses. This sounds like a lot of doses, but you will need this much since you will be breeding and need to vaccinate the kids.  Also you will be vaccinating every year and the vaccine will keep in the fridge for 2-3 years. Check the expiration dates when you receive it. The kids require 2 vaccinations 2 ml each, 1 month apart, so they will each need 4 ml of vaccine. The does will only need 2 ml vaccine annually unless they have not been vaccinated before. Then you will do the 2 dose routine with them the first year. Then they will only require a booster of 2 ml each year. Good breeders vaccinate their goats and kids so just ask when the next booster is due when buying your does. The cost for the Bar-Vac brand which I have used for over 30 years is currently 11.99 on Jeffers, plus the cost of shipping.  I usually pay extra for expedited shipping and an ice pack, especially in summer.

You will also need syringes. I order the Jeffers combination 3 ml syringe with the 22 gauge ¾” needle.  The 3 ml size is perfect for the vaccination dose of 2ml (cc) and I find that this smaller needle is easier on my goats and sheep for the vaccine. I use a larger syringe and larger gauge needle for the denser antibiotics. The larger the gauge number, the smaller in diameter the needle is. You can buy these individually but I buy the box of 100 because I vaccinate so many annually. Each syringe and needle combination is sealed in its own sterile package.

When disposing of the used needles, I use an empty 1 gallon plastic milk container. I attach a hay rope through the handle and hang it in the barn where it is always available for disposal of my sharps. The tiny opening makes it almost impossible for the needles to be retrieved. You can also bend the needle before disposing of it.

Depending on the area of the country where you live some hay will be cheaper and more accessible. I live in Southern California and our best hay and most affordable is alfalfa.  Excellent protein and calcium levels make it perfect for dairy animals.  We can hardly get orchard grass and both it and timothy are hugely expensive here. We always fed alfalfa to our dairy goats. Most of them were high yielders. We were on milk test, so yield was important.

The variety of hay you feed is less important than knowing what the protein percentage is. Hay is roughage and is the most important part of the goat’s or sheep’s diet. They need the roughage for a healthy rumen which in turn produces healthy kids and lots of milk. You will need to make up any shortage of protein and minerals in supplements if the hay does not contain enough protein. While the amount of hay varies according to the size, age, and condition (pregnant or dry) of the goat, we always free fed our dairy goats and kids on hay. Got sre picky eaters and will not eat off the round unless they are starving so make sure to feed in a keyhole style feeder. The (alfalfa) hay that will eventually be left in the feeder will make it look like they still have plenty to eat but it will be the stalky leftovers. If you have a horse, calf, or steer, you can feed that stalky remnant to them. Or use it for bedding since the goats won’t eat it unless they are starving. That means it will be ncessary to check the feeders. Often you can salvage most of the leftover hay by reaching into the feeder and pulling out the hay and turning the pile upside down to expose more of the tender edible leafy parts. Since we only fed Alfalfa I don’t know if your goats will consume all the other types of hay you feed. We raised newborn dairy bull calves we bought from a friend on the leftover alfalfa and milk and then took them to auction at 2 months old.

When milking, you will only be graining your goats on the milkstand.  You can use any good brand of goat grain or dairy cow grain.  I used to buy dairy grain in bulk from the mill.  It had slightly higher levels of copper which was good for the goats.  And since I bought in bulk it was cheaper.  You need to weigh your milk. Use a hanging scale for this and deduct the weight of the pail. The standard ratio is 1 lb. grain for each 1 lb. milk produced. A gallon of milk weighs 8 lbs. In order to avoid wasting grain, match the grain weight to the milk weight until the goat is at peak production. Then back off on the grain by a half cup at a time. When you reach the point where the milk yield starts to drop, go back to the last amount fed just prior to the drop in production and continue feeding that much grain until her production naturally begins to drop prior to kidding. Another reason for weighing the milk yield of each doe is that their production will fluctuate depending on what point in their lactation curve they are at. The lactation curve tarts off slowly, then builds to a peak, then some does start dropping down to a medium amount. Yo want to determine how much milk you are getting and match it to the grain. Otherwise you are wasting money in grain, the goat will get fat, and overly fat goats often don’t breed well.

Be sure to use a good quality udder wash and teat dip when milking to avoid mastitis. Standard length of lactation is 20 months. You breed your doe during the lactation without drying her up. Then you dry her up 2 months prior to kidding. I used to do a Tomorrow dry cow mastitis tubes prevention treatment after the final milking. I can no longer buy it here in California without a vet prescription.

Last point – if you have a livestock auction to sell your buck kids, they will sell best at around 2 months old. Take all your buck ids to the auction at 2 months old which is when you want to wean them. Don’t wean them first, keep them on bottles until you load them into the trailer for the auction. Don’t disbud them or castrate them since ethnic buyers want them with horns and testicles. Disbud your doe kids for safety sake.


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## Caprine (Jul 15, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> First, where do you live?
> 
> Don’t use a vet for vaccinations – it just costs you a lot of money and is not necessary for healthy goats. You need to do a subcutaneous (just under the skin) injection and can do it in the skin of the armpit. On kids I give the vaccinations in the loose skin of the groin. Goats only require Clostridium Perfringens vaccine known as CDT. I usually buy it from Jeffers and a 50 ml bottle gives you 25 doses. This sounds like a lot of doses, but you will need this much since you will be breeding and need to vaccinate the kids.  Also you will be vaccinating every year and the vaccine will keep in the fridge for 2-3 years. Check the expiration dates when you receive it. The kids require 2 vaccinations 2 ml each, 1 month apart, so they will each need 4 ml of vaccine. The does will only need 2 ml vaccine annually unless they have not been vaccinated before. Then you will do the 2 dose routine with them the first year. Then they will only require a booster of 2 ml each year. Good breeders vaccinate their goats and kids so just ask when the next booster is due when buying your does. The cost for the Bar-Vac brand which I have used for over 30 years is currently 11.99 on Jeffers, plus the cost of shipping.  I usually pay extra for expedited shipping and an ice pack, especially in summer.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Lots of good info. Side note: when I said to my brother that I wanted to put bows on the doelings for the sale pictures, he suggested that I use baseball caps on the bucklings. Can't wait!


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## Caprine (Jul 25, 2020)

So I'm thinking either Mini Nubian or Nigerian Dwarf, as there aren't any Mini Saanens or Mini LaManchas nearby that I know of. They'd both probably have to be bred to a Nigerian Dwarf when the time comes, for small kids. But I have a question: if you breed a Nubian to a Nigerian Dwarf to get a Mini Nubian, and then breed the Mini Nubian to a Nigerian Dwarf, WILL THE KIDS HAVE FLOPPY EARS? This is obviously a very important question, so I'd appreciate any responses.


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## Mini Horses (Jul 25, 2020)

I'll add -- for your plans at buying --  A goat will eat approx 4% of body weight.  So 100# doe will need at least 4# of roughage a day.  I Using alfalfa, you don't count those stems.      Orchard, etc. easier to compute.

Ears....it's a crap shoot.  You get what you get BUT expect far less drop, especially if a ND buck is crossed onto an F1 mini nub.    For those raising a herd of mini nubs, you will see a real hard search for a mini-nub buckling with good ear drop and they HOPE it carries genetically.   You will also lose the roman nose on most.   When you find a farm with those features, know that it took a long, hard breeding program. 

Some breed features are very dominant.   I have SaanenXNubian and you would think straight Saanen with most.  If I breed that cross to a Nubian, at 75% I usually get a lot more of the Nubian look.


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## chickens really (Jul 26, 2020)

I don't know if there is any truth to this? Although my friend who has Nubian and Nigerian Dwarf Does says that Nubian require a heated goat barn in winter due to the slick short coats and floppy ears get frost bite in freezing climates. I chose Thicker haired smaller breeds for that reason.


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## Caprine (Jul 26, 2020)

I just think the ears are cute.
So most goats are seasonal breeders, AKA, you breed them in the fall and get kids in the spring. But I read somewhere that Nigerian Dwarfs breed year-round? Is there any truth to this, and if so, does it cross over to their hybrids? Because staggering breeding by more than a month would be nice.
(I am just going to ask BYH every goat question I can think of, until I think of no more.)


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## chickens really (Jul 26, 2020)

Caprine said:


> I just think the ears are cute.
> So most goats are seasonal breeders, AKA, you breed them in the fall and get kids in the spring. But I read somewhere that Nigerian Dwarfs breed year-round? Is there any truth to this, and if so, does it cross over to their hybrids? Because staggering breeding by more than a month would be nice.
> (I am just going to ask BYH every goat question I can think of, until I think of no more.)


My friend here has ND and hers are seasonal. I think it depends on location. 
Definitely ask away! These people are fantastic and very helpful.


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## chanceosunshine (Jul 27, 2020)

I'm in the same boat as you, studying up on goats and eagerly awaiting our own. You mention having pines as a windbreak and this is one of my questions regarding goat safety. There's a huge list of plants that are toxic to goats and I seen that pines are on that list. Just throwing that out there because after reading the whole thread I haven't seen it mentioned. I plan to post a more specific question in my own thread, but just wondered if someone could comment on whether or not having pines accessible is a danger or if the goats are more likely to just avoid it on their own.

Enjoy the quest and learning and good luck to you!



Caprine said:


> Wow, I was NOT expecting so many posts. Thanks for all of the great advice! Let's see, neighbors. No, I do not have any neighbors within earshot. I can't hear them unless the wind is right and they're screaming. Heads can get stuck in cattle panels? That's not good to hear. So I've read that goats are browsers, like deer, rather than grazers, like sheep. My land is mostly grass, but I do have a windbreak barrier of pines, so they might like that? I think I'm pretty good, unless anyone has any more advice or warnings for me. You can never have too much.


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## chickens really (Jul 27, 2020)

chanceosunshine said:


> I'm in the same boat as you, studying up on goats and eagerly awaiting our own. You mention having pines as a windbreak and this is one of my questions regarding goat safety. There's a huge list of plants that are toxic to goats and I seen that pines are on that list. Just throwing that out there because after reading the whole thread I haven't seen it mentioned. I plan to post a more specific question in my own thread, but just wondered if someone could comment on whether or not having pines accessible is a danger or if the goats are more likely to just avoid it on their own.
> 
> Enjoy the quest and learning and good luck to you!


Goats can eat pine bows. Mine love them. I actually cut branches off now because they have eaten the pines as high as they can reach. What I have seen is goats sample things and if they don't like it they don't eat it. Lilacs are listed as not good for goats but mine eat them without any ill effects.


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## chanceosunshine (Jul 27, 2020)

Interesting! Here is the link to the list I was going by. To clarify, the pine was actually meant as something that could injure them, not actually poison, but it doesn't list lilacs at all. I wonder if maybe I should be going by a different list.






						Plants Poisonous to Livestock - Cornell University Department of Animal Science
					

Department of Animal Science at Cornell University; This site contains information about plants which are poisonous to or adversely affect animal health.




					poisonousplants.ansci.cornell.edu
				






chickens really said:


> Goats can eat pine bows. Mine love them. I actually cut branches off now because they have eaten the pines as high as they can reach. What I have seen is goats sample things and if they don't like it they don't eat it. Lilacs are listed as not good for goats but mine eat them without any ill effects.


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## chickens really (Jul 27, 2020)

chanceosunshine said:


> Interesting! Here is the link to the list I was going by. To clarify, the pine was actually meant as something that could injure them, not actually poison, but it doesn't list lilacs at all. I wonder if maybe I should be going by a different list.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness. If that was the case all livestock would be dead and kept in dry lots. That's quite a list! 😳😂


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## chickens really (Jul 27, 2020)

I know certain garden plants are toxic to goats. Now weather they kill or cause stomach upset is another thing? Tomato, potato plant should be avoided. Certain shrubs. I keep my goats from the front yard and only let them out in the pasture during the summer.


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## chanceosunshine (Jul 27, 2020)

chickens really said:


> Oh my goodness. If that was the case all livestock would be dead and kept in dry lots. That's quite a list! 😳😂


That was my thought as well! I tend to take things pretty literally but this list is hard to wrap your mind around and I want to give the goats some credit. I can see if they were in a situation that they were starving they may eat enough of something to sicken or kill them. Some of the first goat people we met had goats that ate something that sickened them enough for a veterinarian to be called. So, I'm torn as to how careful you need to be.


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## chickens really (Jul 27, 2020)

chanceosunshine said:


> That was my thought as well! I tend to take things pretty literally but this list is hard to wrap your mind around and I want to give the goats some credit. I can see if they were in a situation that they were starving they may eat enough of something to sicken or kill them. Some of the first goat people we met had goats that ate something that sickened them enough for a veterinarian to be called. So, I'm torn as to how careful you need to be.


I'm just cautious but not paranoid. My goats only go out on pasture when I'm outside with them. Mine have a large goat yard that they can eat grasses and safe from plants and predators. I don't think you need to be too worried.


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## Caprine (Jul 27, 2020)

Well, if I had to pull all of those plants from my property, I'd go the the hospital from mental illness. Some of then are obvious, but I would think that's if there's plenty of plants to eat, the goats would stay away from the poisonous ones. Thanks for the advice, though. I'll do some more looking on that.


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## chanceosunshine (Jul 27, 2020)

chickens really said:


> I'm just cautious but not paranoid. My goats only go out on pasture when I'm outside with them. Mine have a large goat yard that they can eat grasses and safe from plants and predators. I don't think you need to be too worried.


Thank you. This is what I was hoping to hear!


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## chanceosunshine (Jul 27, 2020)

Caprine said:


> Well, if I had to pull all of those plants from my property, I'd go the the hospital from mental illness. Some of then are obvious, but I would think that's if there's plenty of plants to eat, the goats would stay away from the poisonous ones. Thanks for the advice, though. I'll do some more looking on that.


I feel the same way. It would make it nearly impossible to raise goats anywhere.
Good luck with your studying and future goats!


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jul 27, 2020)

On odious plants the toxins  of most plants mean the animal as to invest a large amount of it before it becomes toxic no that being said some plants i would avoid regardless because i have heard of them being deadly at very little contact. Olander is one such plant. We had a nightshade plant that i was planning to chop out before i got to it the goats destroyed it and are still alive several weeks later so yeah. Traditionally goat will rarely eat to much of anyone plant to get to that point. The biggest threat to them is being grain glutons or quick changes in feed.


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## Mini Horses (Jul 28, 2020)

Goats like to nibble and move.  They "generally" leave the plants that are bad because they are "generally" distasteful.  However, some are really bad and I have had a couple eat and puke.   Yes, unlike some animals, they can do this because of the cud chew, regurgitate ability.   MOSTLY they avoid the bad plants.  Now, nightshade can kill a horse!   I've seen a goat nibble & leave it.   Tomato & eggplant are part of nightshade family.   Often plants listed can be less of an issue but, caution rules a list.

As to seasonal breeding and staggering births -- often done for milk supply  --  you can cover almost 6 months difference.  Goats will differ but, some can be bred as early as July -- tho most often it is Aug/Sept.   And, I have had does breed as late as early March -- tho most often Feb is late as they go.     So Sep to Feb is 6 months.   Your local weather can influence their cycling and a handsome, young buck can, too.  Some breeds are more inclined to a longer "seasonal" time.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jul 28, 2020)

Okay that's nasty i thought them burping in my face was gross. The throwing up a new one i haven't seen. It was Texas nightshade that vanished before i could get to it. I was shocked they even touched it. Maybe it wasn't as toxic as other nightshade i don know. These ones are not like my last herd these tend to eat things they didn't such as mesquite trees.


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## MiniGoatsRule (Jul 28, 2020)

Caprine said:


> Starting off: I want to get goats. For milking and/or pets. The problem with milk goats is obviously you need to breed them to keep the milk coming, and I'm not sure what I'd do with extra kids, especially since I don't want them butchered. I can't turn a kid into chevon! Anyway, I have my sights set on Nigerian Dwarfs, Nubians, and Saanens. Any tips or insight about these breeds? Also, what kind of fencing would you recommend? And I've seen that the minimum size requirements are twenty square feet per goat in the shelter, and two-hundred in the pasture. I can't donate a very large amount of land to goats, so comments on this would be nice. I just want two to four, would getting pygmies or dwarfs offset this? I also would like ANY other helpful information about goats. I barely know anything about them.
> I know this is way too many questions for one thread, but oh well. Thanks for reading!


I'd get Nigerians if I was you. I have one with a pygmy goat, both as pets. Here's a list of reasons why I would:

1. I'm not sure how they are for milk, since we dried ours (we wouldn't be able to milk her whenever we needed to), but my cousin (her old owner) said that they are a great milk breed. I've done some research on it, and I agree that they'd be great "milking pets."

2. I do like how they think that they're the biggest things on earth, but aren't that big. 

3. They are small, meaning they don't take up too much space. We actually free-range our goats, which works great! They know where the treats and petting comes from, so they stay there.

4. They can be warmed up to any animal and will get along fine with them. Our Nigerian Dwarf is so used to horses, she just goes and lies down under the most dangerous one and uses him/her as a shed, and the horse just hangs out there with a little goat underneath.

5. They are great for walking, if you'd want that. Since we don't have a stand to trim their hooves on, we walk ours in our neighborhood, which is super close to our barn, where the goats live. The pavement wears down the excess length on their hooves, and they love seeing the neighborhood. All the kids love coming out to pet them. All we do is clip a lead to their collars and walk around, no need to halter train them. The Nigerian does pull, and I don't know if they all tend to do that, but I will try to fit her for a harness.

6. Their cheeks have the softest fur you will ever feel. Well, second softest if you intend on petting a chinchilla's forehead.

7. They don't eat a lot, from my experience. mine, believe it or not, is a picky eater.They've had the same flake of hay for 3-4 days now, I forget. And it's gonna be there for awhile!

8. They don't need a very tall or strong fence. Just get hogwire on some wooden fence posts, just around 5 feet tall. You'd probably be safe with 4.


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## MiniGoatsRule (Jul 28, 2020)

And, @Caprine what is your profile photo? I can't figure it out.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 28, 2020)

So I have 5 goats and I give them 1 bale in the morning. You can give them between 1-1 1/2 bales


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## Caprine (Jul 29, 2020)

MiniGoatsRule said:


> I'd get Nigerians if I was you. I have one with a pygmy goat, both as pets. Here's a list of reasons why I would:
> 
> 1. I'm not sure how they are for milk, since we dried ours (we wouldn't be able to milk her whenever we needed to), but my cousin (her old owner) said that they are a great milk breed. I've done some research on it, and I agree that they'd be great "milking pets."
> 
> ...


Thanks. Another bonus is they're easier to find around here.


MiniGoatsRule said:


> 6. Their cheeks have the softest fur you will ever feel. Well, second softest if you intend on petting a chinchilla's forehead.


Seeing as I might get a chinchilla... 


MiniGoatsRule said:


> And, @Caprine what is your profile photo? I can't figure it out.


It's a hamster. He's the only herd animal I have right now. The choice was obvious.


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## Ridgetop (Jul 29, 2020)

Goats will usually browse on a poisonous plant then move on if given a choice.  They won't eat enough of the poisonous to do more than give themselves a tummy ache and then remember to stay away from it.  If they have nothing to eat and have to eat the poisonous plant or starve, then you might have goats poison themselves to keep from starving.  We had oleanders in our pature and they occasionally nibbled a bit.  DH was frantic they would get poisoned and tore out the bush in our yard, but there are bushes next door that grow over and through the fence.  No problems with the goats.  

Here in southern CA though there is a town where most of the people own and ride horses and the town council years ago passed an ordinance forbidding the planting of oleanders!  They are a large, pretty, flowering shrub that comes in red, pink and white.  They are much planted in desert areas and along freeways due to their drought tolerance.  Highly poisonous though!  As children we were told the story of the Spanish conquistadores whose cook used an oleander stick to stir the stew,  The entire troop died.  My grandmother made us wash our hands with soap and water if we even touched one!  Beautiful but deadly.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 29, 2020)

So I have 3 full grown goats and I give them 1 bale of Orchard Grass in the morning every other day. And I have babies so I also give them 1 bale a day and that normally lasts them 4-5 days. I leave it in there 24/7


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jul 29, 2020)

My husband grandfather's cousin step (bare foot and from what i am told it went into her foot) on an olander stump and died from it. They are very popular in Texas because of the flight resistance. We get very hot summers with little rain in our area and try do very well. I am not a fan of them.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 29, 2020)

what are olander stumps? and how did it make her die? Sorry if that is personal I understand but I never heard of those before


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jul 29, 2020)

If you milk they tend to eat alot more then those who aren't in milk. So you will have to adjust while in milking. I personally allow free acess when are supplementing with hay. We have coastal which i think i mentioned before.


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jul 29, 2020)

Oleander sorry phone keeps correcting me like it knows what i want to say. Anyways they apparently cut down the bushes and left the stumps or remains stick up above the ground and she stepped on them while outside bare foot and the toxins from the plant killed her. Their toxin or poison attacks your  cardiovascular system i for get the exact name of their toxin.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 29, 2020)

oh ok! Do you possibly have a picture of one?


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## Jesusfreak101 (Jul 29, 2020)

These are from Google as we don't have any on the property.


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## Wild Bug Ranch (Jul 29, 2020)

oh ok


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## Ridgetop (Jul 29, 2020)

They are very popular as a landscaping shrub in desert type dry climates.  Just have to know that they are very poisonous and the poison can be absorbed through the skin in some cases.


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## Jessica C (Aug 6, 2020)

Around here we have azaleas galore. My property used to be part of a Tung oil farm, and that plant is highly prolific and toxic. Saplings are constantly springing up and I kill them when I see them, but the goats haven’t eaten them, as far as I’ve seen. Otherwise we have pine trees and the goats love to eat the needles.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 7, 2020)

Azaleas and Rhododendrons are very poisonous.  Goats usually don't have a problem with being poisoned by shrubbery because of the way they graze.  They nibble a bit here and a bit there as the move around foraging.  I think they would only be poisoned if they had nothing else to eat and hat to eat the poisonous shrubs.  On the other hand, DH hates highly toxic shrubs.  Having eradicated the Oleanders, he has waged war against the Castor beans as they come up each year down in the gully.  He finally almost has them under control.


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## MtViking (Aug 16, 2020)

Caprine said:


> That would definitely be correct. A while ago I came back to my house to find our neighbor's dog attacking my chickens. When confronted, they said it couldn't be their dog as it doesn't leave their land. But if I see it on my property again, an airsoft gun won't kill it, and it couldn't be their dog, after all. But yeah, any others?


I don’t where you live but here in Montana it’s legal to shoot to kill any animal going after live stock or pets. That includes neighbors dogs. Which is probably why we don’t have a stray dog problem and people keep their dogs fenced or contained pretty darn well. Coyotes, mountain lions,eagles, hawks and bears are still a threat. I’m not sure what would happen if I shot an eagle killing my chickens that’s probably asking for trouble but the other ones I wouldn’t hesitate to take out if needed. Most of us are trying to produce food for our families any threat to that is meet with force. Might sound cold hearted but my animals are as much family as they are livestock.


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## Ridgetop (Aug 16, 2020)

Roaming dogs are some of the worst predators and definitely should be shot or put down.  Unless there is identification it is useless to try for compensation although the law usually provides for it. 

In the majority of states there are laws on the books still that it is legal to shoot predators attacking your animals.  However, in certain states some species have been protected.  Here in California it is cougars, and it is illegal to shoot one.  However, they have become so numerous now that the native deer population has suffered big losses.

In Montana and certain of the middle western states, particularly near Yellowstone, where wolves have been reintroduced it is illegal to kill them unless the F & G allows it.  One rancher saw a wolf pack pull down a calf and notified F & G for a permit.  They came out and told him that it was a dog kill.  This was when they were first introducing wolves and did not want their early introductions endangered.
Bears of certain breeds are protected in some states.  And of course, eagles are off limits.

My preference is, legal or not, to Shoot, Shovel and Shut up.  No need to brag about what  was shot, just quiet control of a predator.  You never know what the Fish and Game or Wildlife authorities will do or say anyway. Unless you can claim damages from the government (some states and fed have repayment for livestock losses from wild predators) just SSS.  Of course, SSS works just as well _after_ the claim is verified and filed with the government agency.  LOL


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## Caprine (Aug 16, 2020)

I live in Wisconsin, where it it legal to kill a dog that is attacking livestock, or a short time after. Wisconsin is a free-for-all state, one of the few where it's legally easier to own a tiger than a dog. Coyotes and foxes are fair game. We don't really have wolves. I have chickens, and while I have no idea how legal it is to shoot raptors, if my chickens were free-ranging and a Cooper's came after them... 🔫


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## MtViking (Aug 16, 2020)

Ridgetop said:


> Roaming dogs are some of the worst predators and definitely should be shot or put down.  Unless there is identification it is useless to try for compensation although the law usually provides for it.
> 
> In the majority of states there are laws on the books still that it is legal to shoot predators attacking your animals.  However, in certain states some species have been protected.  Here in California it is cougars, and it is illegal to shoot one.  However, they have become so numerous now that the native deer population has suffered big losses.
> 
> ...


It was a little bit stricter on the wolves when they first were introduced. Now you can buy wolf tags over the counter in most counties. And a rancher can take them if they are attacking livestock. He still has to call fish and game after the fact but the population of wolves has exploded they’re everywhere now. And they’re really taking their toll on the elk populations here as well as sheep and cattle ranches.  I’m not one that’s going to go out and hunt one but if it’s a threat I’m with you take care of it and forget about it. Or keep a tag on you if your worried about it.


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## Chebird (Sep 4, 2020)

Wild Bug Ranch said:


> I have 5 goats, and one of them is a doe. They are all Nigerian Dwarfs. 4 of them are wethers(castrated males). Depending of the type of goat you want(nubian, nigerian dwarf, or saanen), you want them to have hay, place to sleep at night and where you can lock them up at night, and a pasture. You also want to clean their water everyday since they are picky animals. And you want to feed them hay, grain, hay or pasture, pasture, or hay, grain, and pasture all combined. Again depending of breed you want, you have to trim their hooves every 3-6 months. Also you have to give them shots, black oil sunflower seeds, minerals ALWAYS, and baking soda ALWAYS!!!! Good luck on getting your goats!
> 
> 
> Oh also, if you are getting does, and you want your own buck(male goat) keep him away from your girls!!! THEY WILL BREED THROUGH A FENCE!!!!


Why the black oil sunflower seeds?


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