# Do I need to get a LGD?



## AshleyFishy (Jun 29, 2013)

Hello. I've been thinking this over a lot but just can't seem to come up with enough pros to out weigh the cons. I was hoping the experts on here could give me more of a first hand perspective on LGD ownership. I'm not fully sure I could really utilize one on my farm.


Let me start by telling you a bit more about my 'set up'. I have a tiny farm of just under 3 acres. I have five goats, assorted poultry, two pigs as of currently. I most worry about the goats though, however not due to predators. I worry about thieves greatly though. I own a little shop here in town, so I'm not at home most of the day. We have great neighbors that are retired and nosey. So they do call me if a pig gets out etc. 

I fear for my little goats though, that someone would take them and put them through an auction or eat them. Would investing in a LGD at least give me peace of mind? Would it be smarter to just invest in a security system? I know it sounds childish but....I need to do something, I'm becoming stressed daily about someone taking my goat friends.


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 29, 2013)

*Is your property completely fenced? Is the fencing tall and secure? Are you willing to put up hot wire to keep said LGD in, if necessary? Are you willing to spend LOTS and LOTS of time with said puppy to train it what to do and what not to do? Can you keep your poultry in a safe and enclosed location away from puppy?




If yes to these questions I would say go for it, however, they are A LOT of work to train, but once they are trained they are absolutely invaluable.




Hope this helps, and I know the LGD Pro's will be here soon to add on!*


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## AshleyFishy (Jun 29, 2013)

My property is completely fenced with chain link on two sides and no climb on the rest, further more I do have hot tape around the bottom. It was my understanding as long as the puppy was raised with poultry they did not develop behavioral problems toward them. In addition...I was told by a local with LGDs, sorry for paraphrasing, "You need to remain mostly hands off with the dogs. So they can bond to the farm animals and not to people".

Is this not the case?


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## WhiteMountainsRanch (Jun 29, 2013)

*Absolutely NOT true in both cases. 

1. Even pups that are raised with poultry may start to chase and kill them, it is up to US as the pack leaders to teach them what to do and what not to do. And that means CONSTANT supervision, with only supervised visits to the animals while you can be there working with them and watching, while they are young and still learning. Once they are older and you have trained them they can gradually spend more and more time in with "their" animals. Which leads me to number 2.

2. That is an extremely common misconception/ mistake that some LGD owners make. Yes if you had 2000 acres and a herd of goats roaming it that you wanted the LGDs to stay with then MAYBE, as they can learn from the elder dogs. But in a small farm type situation that is the LAST thing you want to do. There are no other LGD's to learn from, so it is up to us to teach them what to do and what not to do. WHILE THEY ARE YOUNG, before they develop bad habits. And being that type of situation you will still want to teach your dog basic commands ie, sit, stay, come, leave it, etc... You don't want a wild dog that doesn't listen. Especially on only 3 acres. The more you work with them the less problems you will have with anything later down the road. My dogs are mostly treated just like any other dog (I expect them to listen, and not chase the livestock) and they are turning out to be VERY promising LGD's and very bonded to the livestock. Diego won't leave "his herd" of goats. 


The real expert on this subject is Southern By Choice... I'm sure she will be along soon!  

Here is my LGD pup Diego, on one of his supervised visits when he was younger.







And my other LDG Toli on one of her supervised visits.



*


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## secuono (Jun 29, 2013)

I think you should just add bare hot wire to the tops of your fence and call it a day. Add a couple strands up a foot or more, that way a person cannot just hop/climb over w/o being shocked several times during their attempt. The thicker the wire, the better the current travels through it. Lots of places have crappy 16g wire, skip it and go at least with 14.


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## AshleyFishy (Jun 29, 2013)

secuono said:
			
		

> I think you should just add bare hot wire to the tops of your fence and call it a day. Add a couple strands up a foot or more, that way a person cannot just hop/climb over w/o being shocked several times during their attempt. The thicker the wire, the better the current travels through it. Lots of places have crappy 16g wire, skip it and go at least with 14.


Unfortunately that would do nothing to deter a thief in my area.


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 29, 2013)

I'm going to defer to southern by choice for most of your questions but I did want to add that and LGD is mainly used to deter predators of the animal kind, not usually human.  Yes they can scare a person(s) but if said persons wanted to steal your goats I think they might work around an LGD.  
Do you live in a bad area? It is rare that a thief steals animals, hard to load, haul and one has to know where to sell them.  Much easier to just break in someone's house and steal expensive non living things.
I worry about an aggressive dog biting a passer by more than biting the bad guy.hopefully way more good guys than bad out there.

I think a good fence maybe a hot wire  for your piece of mind, a good strong lock and keep your nosey neighbors happy should be much easier on your nerves.  

Good luck and hopefully you'll find a way to not worry so much.


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## secuono (Jun 29, 2013)

The breeds of LGD that are also people defensive tend to be the ones used in other countries with hundred to thousands of acres. These are not the type of dog most people could handle , even 'dog experts' and not the kind of dog you want on such a tiny bit of land. He would be a huge liability issue, even more so, since LGD love to travel and explore, he could easily attack neighbors when he gets out. 
It would also be easy for the thief to just drug/poison or plainly shoot your dog and take what they want. If you live in the country, people shoot, it'[s common place to hear it. 

Was it just goats? Maybe you can, slim chance, find a GSD or other furred dog that can be human aggressive, but still be trained to accept livestock. I'll say this now, long before the thought crosses any minds, a Doberman is NOT the right dog. They have horribly thin and short hairs, not a fur coat what so ever. They would be no good dealing with the heat or freezing cold. They are also very strung out about prey, if it runs, its fair game.  But I know a lot of GSDs that are far more mellow about prey and could be trained and raised with goats to live peacefully with them. They should be ok to have protecting the property, note, I said property, not goats. I would socialize him with your vet, your family and close neighbors, that's all. No petco trips or anything like that. 

If your neighborhood is so bad that even a good electrical shock wont stop them, you have bigger issues. Make the goats hard to reach, keep gates chained and locked, put up signs, keep all ropes, leashes, leads, halters, anything to trap the goats hidden. No food left out, don't train them to come to the fence for food, etc. Make it as hard as possible to get in and out. Plant fast growing thorny bushes, heck, put up hidden trip wires/snares, make them think twice about stealing. Never leave collars on the goats, keep lights on at night, lights spotted on gates, driveway [make the driveway to you property hard to get through], road. Bells on gates, use those worthless 'red light predator deterrents' as 'security cameras'. I have two of them, 100% worthless on animals, but people do ask if I have a new security system, they see the lights blinking at night and assume, that's good!


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## AshleyFishy (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't live in a bad area but yes theft is more common in my area. Kind of a farming rural subdivision thing. I think when the yard workers and what not come in and well...etc. I know that sounds bad, sorry.

For love sake the equestrian center behind me even had someone let the horses out before! 

I had my pit of 12 years pass away last year and just haven't felt very safe leaving things since. He would never bother the maid or waterman etc but would always through a fit if someone pulled up to the gate that shouldn't be there.  In the five years we have been in this house two neighbors have been robbed! Three neighbors have put in dial pad gates and security cameras at the gates with large "you are being filmed signs up".

Sounds like a LGD just wouldn't be the right thing honestly. Thank y'all so much for your time and wisdom. You have official talked me out of it.  I will start looking into exterior security systems and key pad gates instead.


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## Grazer (Jun 29, 2013)

Well if you ask me I don't see why an LGD wouldn't work out.
I mean if you love dogs and want a dog that will guard both you and your livestock then personally I see absolutely no reason why you can't get one.
3 acres is not too small. There are literally hundreds of thousands LGD breeds all over the world that end up being a pet and live fine in a town with a smaller back yard, let alone on a farm that's 3 acres.
As long as you have a minimum of 6ft non-climb horse fence there shouldn't be a problem.

Most well bred LGD breeds *will * protect the livestock from both human and animal intruders. After all, throughout history, there have always been livestock thieves.
"Softer" (and by that I mean less or non-human aggressive) breeds like Great Pyrenees, Maremma etc are often considered as less suited for that task. 

The breed I would recommend to you is a Central Asian Ovcharka (ovcharka is a Russian word for shepherd dog) because of where you live.
They are short haired and do much better in hot climates than long haired LGD breeds.
Central Asian shepherds are less human aggressive than their cousins the Caucasian shepherds, but a well bred Central Asian is still plenty protective.
The only downside is that they are kinda expensive. About $1500 or up for a pup. 
But if you are interested, I can PM you the name of breeders who health test and raise their dogs with livestock.
Another option could also be a Spanish Mastiff from working lines or a Spanish Mastiff/Anatolian mix. The latter are much cheaper and more athletic.

A more popular and also short haired breed would be the Anatolian shepherd. A well bred Anatolian will not be very human aggressive but they will not just stand by and allow someone to come and steal your animals.
Security systems are a good idea regardless of whether you get a dog or not. Because as someone else pointed out, even the toughest dog can be taken out with a gun or poisoned (although I have to point out that very protective and aloof LGD's will not take food thrown at them from strangers).

*Edited to add: yes you need to handle your LGD and socialize him/her enough so you can take your puppy to the vet etc.
And the first 18 months your new puppy will need constant supervision so he/she doesn't develops a habit of chasing and potentially hurting your livestock and poultry.


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## AshleyFishy (Jun 30, 2013)

I don't know.... I honestly think any loud "barky" type dog would maybe do the job. They wouldn't need to live with the critters necessarily just alert the neighbors. I have a half acre front yard that is still set up for a large dog, if it was not meant to live with the goats etc. I used a radio fence plus chain link to keep in my previous dog. Worked perfectly! He was shocked twice when we first installed it and never, that I witnessed,  again.

I agree with our climate that a short haired dog would be best,  if I was to take the path of another dog.  Honestly thinking my set up is far to small for so much canine now. Since they patrol so much.

I do love dogs....but Mickey, my last dog, was an angel...maybe I'm just trying to replace what will never be again? I don't want to put an animal into a job that is unbefitting of their natural behavior. However as one of my close more country friends put it tonight... " Do you want something to alert the sheriff's office that will take half an hour to arrive or do you want something that will bring out mr. $!&&*% and his fing shotgun".

Just don't know. 

Maybe I should just adopt a medium sized outsdoor dog with a big bark. I prefer adopting anyway.


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## bcnewe2 (Jun 30, 2013)

> Central Asian Ovcharka (ovcharka is a Russian word for shepherd dog) because of where you live.
> They are short haired and do much better in hot climates than long haired LGD breeds.
> Central Asian shepherds are less human aggressive than their cousins the Caucasian shepherds, but a well bred Central Asian is still plenty protective.


These are the dogs you'd recommend to a person who has had little or no experience with an LGD?
And I know people say Anatolian Shepherd's are protective. But I'm finding not that much with humans. Which is fine with me. I really think it's an individual dog thing.

How bout another yard dog like your old Pittie?  Or some other type big bad reputation dog?  
Really my border collies left out in the yard or even the LGD in the yard will stop people from getting out of their cars but someone with serious intent on robbing me will have done at least some homework and is going to know about my dogs.  

I think any dog would work to just keep riff raff at bay, the kind that will open gates for fun.  IMO They are not serious or dangerous except the stupid things that they do can cause harm.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 30, 2013)

I saw this yesterday... but I have a farm...   didn't have to respond and felt WHITE RANCH did a great job explaining... all sounds so familiar! LOL

Not sure what I can add here but I will share my thoughts...

*You have a very legitimate concern*. Livestock theft IS up in certain regions. You can also see it will often correlate with different cultural festivities. VERY SAD but true none-the- less!
In NC we have seen this happen in several counties and it is generally GOATS!

After pondering your situation, I honestly DO NOT think a LGD is your solution. 

*A LGD is a very SERIOUS commitment*. They are not like other dogs. They are also not re-homed well when they "don't work out". Most LGD's that "don't work out" were bought with that thought in the back of their mind. Oh well if it doesn't work out then... Most of these dogs that didn't work out are human owner stupidity and ignorance.
*These dogs require more than most people think*. They are highly intelligent, stubborn, LOUD, dig, wander etc.
They also will kill your poultry until you TRAIN them for poultry. They will take a year or more to do their job. Their first and foremost job is with livestock. They are also nocturnal... meaning they are up all night on guard which also means that is when you and your neighbors will hear them. Be prepared for complaints.

I would say a working breed such as a Mastiff etc would be more suitable.

As far as soft or hard or hot breeds... I have seen them all. Our Pyrs and Anatolian are all different. Yet I would never say SOFT about any of them. 2 of them (toli and 1 m pyr) will allow people in IF WE ARE WITH THEM.  Our other 2 pyrs (M/F) absolutely will not. The female will put her head through the hotwire if a person gets too close... NO-ONE and I mean NO-ONE will get past this dog. Now, if I bring the dogs out from their fenceing guarding area (ie- away from their charges yhe goats) they are sweet cuddlies that think their bellies must be rubbed for hours! 

I do think the Caucasions/Ovcharkas are amazing dogs- BUT they are alot of dog! Unless you have experience in certain similar breeds I would not recommend them to anyone without a serious canine or LGD or working dog ( and I mean those that actually WORK their dogs) background.

None of my dogs can be "bribed" with food.  

Our LGD's are for LGD work. Our German Shepherd Dog (GSD) and our farm mutt are for the rest of the property. They guard the whole property. 

I want to say I have great respect for you seeking advice from LGD people and not just running out on a whim.

BTW- what the person told you about "ignoring them"---- *TERRIBLE ADVICE!* Most of the trouble calls I get stem from this ignorant OLD advice.


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## Briard'nSheep (Jun 30, 2013)

Why not get a large dog (non-lgd), in most cases it will deter an intruder. Introduced to livestock properly and early they will co-exist. 

Our neighbour across the street has 2 mutts (one looks like a Golden Retriever cross with husky or malamute) that regularly take on the foxes. In February they took on a big timber wolf and a few weeks ago they barked a bear up a tree on our property! 

Since you had a pitbull before hand, you would know that any large dog might just do the trick.


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## AshleyFishy (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you all for your input!  I will NOT be getting a LGD. 

Thank you Southern by choice for your experience and kind words. 

If I'm going to go the path of a guard dog...I will adopt either another trainable pit or GSD in need. I believe I will still be putting in cameras and a key pad for the gate though. If nothing else that might deter someone knowing they are being taped. PLUS!  The alarm system gentleman said they can install some cameras out in the pasture so I can watch the goaties from work! How fun!

Again thank you all for sharing and talking me through this. I've just been a huge emotional ball since I found out I'm preggers. Maybe that is one reason I'm so concerned about making the property more protected.


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## Southern by choice (Jun 30, 2013)

Congrats on your pregnancy!   

It sounds like you have made some great decisions on "prevention".  So glad you have had a little time to walk through all of your options.

I do want to add a LGD is a true asset to any farm but timing and commitment are so important. If down the road you are in the position for a LGD I will warn you... they will steal your heart and ruin you on all other dogs! LOL   

Good wishes to you!


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## AshleyFishy (Jun 30, 2013)

Thank you for the heads up Southern by choice 

Fingers still crossed on the pregnancy though.  This is my second pregnancy but I have no children.  I haven't told my husband yet because if I lost another it would kill him again. I'm only 8 weeks so I'm keeping my mouth shut until 12 weeks.

Plus my mom has terminal cancer and I wouldn't want to spring anything on her.


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## Grazer (Jun 30, 2013)

bcnewe2 said:
			
		

> > Central Asian Ovcharka (ovcharka is a Russian word for shepherd dog) because of where you live.
> > They are short haired and do much better in hot climates than long haired LGD breeds.
> > Central Asian shepherds are less human aggressive than their cousins the Caucasian shepherds, but a well bred Central Asian is still plenty protective.
> 
> ...


Central Asian Ovcharka's are not the same breed as the Caucasian Ovcharka's.
I just have to point that out because it seems you think they are one and the same. They are two different breeds.
I know hundreds of people who got a Central Asian with no prior experience with an LGD breed (I know of hundreds others who got a CO also with no prior experience with an LGD breed btw). And they were fine, because they were consistent, firm owners.
They are not some uncontrollable monsters (neither are Caucasian Ovcharka's, but they are too much canine for most dog owners, as they are usually very, very protective). 
Central Asians are an excellent choice of LGD's for people looking for a short haired LGD, have adequate fencing, are firm, consistent owners and want a dog that will guard both their property and their livestock.

In fact most Central Asians are not that much more protective than an Anatolian or a Kangal (some are, but most aren't). And most Central Asians certainly are not more human aggressive than a Sarplaninac.
And we have several BYH members with a Sarplaninac. 
So no, I see absolutely nothing wrong with my suggestion. As for the OP, I hope she adopts. Because a) she would be saving a life and b) it doesn't seems like she wants an LGD type of dog.


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