# Fence post bracing



## Bruce

I am working on fencing this:

 

The NW corner has to be a floating brace as described by @greybeard since I hit ledge at 2' down (going to have to concrete the corner post and make sturdy floating braces both directions). My question relates to the area at the bottom, in the middle. I can't run straight down the property line along the road because there is a HUGE pile of very large rocks around the tree just to the left so I have this stupid "cutout" until I somehow get equipment to move those rocks which may be never. I think they were "found" when the road was put in ~11 years ago by the prior owner of our property.

The question: the N/S length of that section is only 14'. Do I need to brace the posts in the N/S direction for that little distance? I'm using 4' field fence and will put a T-post half way between the corner posts. I've dug a 3' hole for the upper one today and will do the same for the lower one tomorrow. Hopefully, I can get that far without hitting a large rock. That should make for a fairly sturdy post 3' in 5' out, no?


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## Baymule

I would brace them so you can stretch the fence tight. A huge pile of rocks? Thought about a rock fence? Or put them on Craigs List-FREE Landscape rocks! Call some landscapers in your area to see if they want them. people pay crazy prices for rocks.


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## Bruce

They would have to come get them, I can't move them. If I could, I would  
I think rocks are Vermont's biggest non cash crop. Don't think anyone will pay big bucks 

While I'm here, another question about fence post bracing. When doing an H brace, the "wisdom" says the distance between the two posts should be 2.5x the height of the fence posts and that the high end of the brace wire should be at the level of the horizontal brace. What does it matter how tall the fence and brace posts are? The important thing is the angle of the brace wire. In my case, the posts will be 5' out of the ground with a 4' fence so the horizontal brace would be no higher than 4'. I think I also read that the horizontal should be placed at 75% of the post height which would be 3.75'. If the only pull on the posts will be from the 4' high field fence (the hot wire on top not being tensioned as much as the fence), I don't see why the distance between the post and brace post would be different if they were 5' out of the ground or 10'. The horizontal brace will be working at 3.75' and the tension on the gate post would still be at 4' and the "ideal" angle would be achieved with a brace length of 9.3'. An 8' brace would be a factor of 2.1 the height of the 3.75' high brace.


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## babsbag

Baymule said:


> people pay crazy prices for rocks.



Except in areas where rocks grow. When I lived in the city I paid for rocks...here I would pay to get rid of the the rocks. 

Can't help with the fence question. My only non-tree corner post is one of those wedge-loc ones so I have no experience.


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## norseofcourse

Bruce said:


> The question: the N/S length of that section is only 14'. Do I need to brace the posts in the N/S direction for that little distance? I'm using 4' field fence and will put a T-post half way between the corner posts.


Just an idea, but what about using something like a cattle panel for that 14' distance?  They are 16' long.  The t-post halfway along it would keep it stable.  Then you'd only need to brace the posts for the E / W fence pull.


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## Bruce

Not a bad idea @norseofcourse !! Quite good in fact and WAY less work, I'll just need to stick some 2x4 wire over the CP to keep the chickens on their side. I might do the same thing for the E/W piece between the little barn and the big one. It happens to be almost exactly 16' but it wouldn't need to be covered. 

Most of the fence put up by the prior owner is on posts that are much too small (like 2" or 3" and rarely even 18" in the ground so they are loose and wobbly and often held in place by some other short post, piece of wood or rebar shoved in next to them. None of it is tensioned field fence though, mostly chicken wire with top and bottom rails. But the rails aren't PT so they rotted off the posts and pulled the chicken wire down with them. Guess it worked as long as he needed them to. 

I need to get a few 12' corral panels to use as 5' high gates, that will give support to the cattle panel on the roof racks on my car. Going to be a few trips between the house and TSC since I have no truck and need wood posts, T-posts and two 330' rolls of field fencing (which will go on the cargo tray on the receiver hitch, but only 1 per trip. Corral panels on the roof may be the same, maybe 2 at a time). Sure hope TSC will give me the 10% off everything even though I can't take it all home in one trip.


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## Baymule

You need a trailer. Can you borrow one?


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## Bruce

Nope. The receiver hitch is there only for the cargo tray. The Prius isn't wired for a trailer. Supposedly not a tow vehicle but I bet one could with a light trailer, load and not a long distance.


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## farmerjan

No neighbors that you could just pay gas to make the trip or a farmer neighbor that has a truck or trailer going to the stockyards that could load it all up for a return trip?  We often haul stuff like that in the cattle trailer on our way back from taking animals to the stockyards....maybe a landscape contractor that could do a little side hauling now that the colder weather and slower work time is coming????


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## farmerjan

Are you planning to get the rock pile along the road moved in any conceiveable future?  Why not invest in enough 16 ft fence panels to just do the cutout piece completely.  Then you can just take them down when you do get someone to take the rock off your hands.  That way you are not doing alot of corners and braces.  We use 16 ft panels for catch pens at some pastures with just a couple of extra t-posts for support.  Unless you have crazy animals, putting 4 posts per panel for strength and support is not that big a deal and then you can reuse them.  Plus if there is a lot of rock, moving one 6 inches one way or another will often find a spot to drive it in.  And I know there is alot of rock in VT; that said, contact the highway dept and see if you can't convince them that they can use it for a road project somewhere or get ahold of a builder  or a stone mason and offer it free just to get it moved or at least diminished in size.


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## greybeard

So many questions an so much food for thought...

In this case, I agree with using panels or corral panels in the 14' areas.

But, to get back to this:


> The question: the N/S length of that section is only 14'. Do I need to brace the posts in the N/S direction for that little distance?



This, is one of those illusionary things that make us think short runs of fence won't need as much bracing as a long run.
It's a false assumption most of the time, but always, if the posts can't be planted very deep.
When we stretch wire, we do exactly that--we are pulling it and making it longer than it is when it came off the roll--hence the 'stretching' term. This puts a tension or strain into the wire, and it being somewhat elastic (wants to return to it's original length) that strain is always there with modern wire, whether it is barbed, slick or any of the woven/knotted/welded wires. The 2 end posts have to be able to take this strain without leaning in toward each other.

Stretch. All wire stretches, even HT, and it all/each stretches a set amt per foot for any given type of wire. The longer the wire, the more total stretch (elongation) that takes place.  When it stops elongating, it's tight. Beyond that is the wire's breaking point.

What we think, vs what is reality...
We think, because a run is 100 ft long, that there is more strain on the wire than if it were only 10 ft long.
False. The strain or tension itself is the same for both run lengths (assuming both runs were stretched with the same force in approx foot lbs of pull) .  Why do we think this? Because we are mistakenly considering the weight of the wire instead of the strain, but the large % of that weight of the wire is supported by all the line posts in between the two ends, (and by the ground in the case of field fence) while the strain is still being borne only by the end posts.  The only weight the end (or corner) posts feels is the distance between it and the first line post, and that's very little compared to the tension or strain.

Just pulling a number out of the air for illustration purposes..
When the fence is up and line posts all in and  you have put 150 ft lbs of strain on a 14' long wire segment, and do the same for a 140' long wire segment, and each has the needed line posts installed, which segment has the most strain on the end posts?
Answer=both are equally stressed. 150 ft lbs of strain is 150 ft lbs of strain regardless of how long the wire is.
Therefore, the 14' long sections need the same bracing a longer run needs.


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## Bruce

@farmerjan No idea if or when the rock may get moved. You know how these things are, plan then get too many other things to do and never get to the "plan". Which is why your idea probably makes a lot of sense so that area isn't just a wasted piece of land growing weeds. Of the total acreage we have here it isn't much but it is 1/3 the total "land" at our prior house (and that included the house!) and my mind still thinks any inch of "lost" space is just not OK! In fact, that "riding ring" is more sq ft than the lot at the prior house. Still blows my mind.

Hmmm, I'll have to see how much that would cost. It was planned the way it is to remove 2 braced corners but if I can run the CPs on unbraced T-post corners, the extra two 90s wouldn't be a big problem. 
CPs are $22 each. Looks like 9 extra panels, 10 total. I would have to cover them with 2x4 welded wire fence to keep the chickens on the inside. I do have that on hand, it will be repurposed from the existing fence where I had to repair it. Otherwise I would just use chicken wire, the only REAL use for it.

Thinking some more: If I do that entire south side in CPs, 14 total, I could remove a $150 roll of field fence from my shopping list. And 6 posts @$15 and 5 cross braces @ $12 for another $150 and some strainers for bracing the wood posts. Um, I think you just saved me some money and time!

I wonder if the people in the 8 houses up the private road would get pissy if I did have those rocks moved since the jumble of rocks in the pile is probably 6' high, 25' wide and runs over the lot line. Technically some of the rock belongs to them. Many woodchuck tunnels in it. I don't mind THAT woodchuck, it is the only one that isn't damaging anything.

@greybeard Yeah, I kinda thought that was the case. Makes physics sense, I was just hopeful.  But that is why I asked it here in a "generic" bracing thread. Figured if I was wrong, others who read later can be disabused of the same hope. I don't know how one WOULD brace two corners that close together. I guess you would have to stuff a post in the middle and make a double H though at 7' it seems the brace wire angle would be steeper than it should to not put more upward pressure on the posts.


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## babsbag

I can't believe you haul all of that in a Prius. I know Toyotas are tough but WOW.  I can't live without my truck.


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## farmerjan

Glad that thinking outside the "rock pile" might make sense and save time and money in the long run for you. You could get by with one extra t-post in the center of the panel, and if you overlapped the ends 1 "square" you could make a t-post take care of both panels on the ends, so in essence you would have 3 t-posts for 1 panel, 5 t-posts for 2 panels,  7 for 3, 9 for 4, 11 for 5 and so on, so that you wouldn't have more than a couple more t-posts than you would have had  in the whole other fence.  And even though t-posts aren't cheap, they are more moveable than a driven round wood post.  And you could always put in one or two wood posts or double up on the t-posts if there was a questionable spot. Plus, if there is a spot that just isn't working, the cattle panels are flexible enough to angle in a bit of a curve.....That is one saving grace of them being welded;  they are much more "sturdy" as in stiff, so that there are some things they are better suited to then trying to stretch the field fencing.  They also don't sag but the welds will come apart if you are doing alot of bending or as I do, using them as a substitute gate that they aren't meant to be.  It doesn't seem like that would be the case for you so would last a good long time and just sit there.

Now if you can't find a farmer or neighbor hauling a load of animals to the sale barn or someone else.... you need to call the high school and see if there is anyone in the ag dept or shop dept , namely a couple of young healthy strong guys, who would be interested in making  some money, gas plus time, for a saturday trip to TSC to get the list of materials....by the time you make 2-3-5 trips, and scratch the car roof, and p***off the local sherrif, you would be better off hiring some teenagers to make one trip and get it unloaded where you want it.  Maybe even find one or two that needs to make some extra money and get these projects done quicker.  I know you are not made of money, and neither is anyone I know; with the downturn in cattle prices we are hurting and we are "big-time" in comparison, and my son and I both work full-time off farm jobs. Sometimes though the money spent is more than made up for in the convenience and time saved to better utilize YOUR efforts.
Hunting season is on us, extra money for a few boxes of shells or some hunting gear is always welcome.  It wouldn't tie them down to a "real job" but might just get a couple things done in a real timely manner.


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## Latestarter

You know, the major truck rental places rent trucks by the hour or day. You could rent a pick up from Home Depot or a small U Haul or Ryder truck for the day and get everything hauled all at once... It might cost a little bit more but save you hours of aggravation and back and forth trips, gas, time... might be worth it if you don't have a friend/neighbor that could help.


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## farmerjan

GO LATESTARTER....I never thought about the rental of a pickup or truck cuz we have anywhere from 3 to 6  available at any one time here on the farm.  There's the 1 ton pu truck with the "bale bed" that we haul round bales on with the two arms that are PERFECT to hold down any load of panels etc on the back and don't have to tie them,plus it has the gooseneck ball recessed in the bed,  the 1 ton pu that is hooked to the cattle trailer most of the time, the "good" 1 ton crew cab pickup that is used to haul the flat bed trailer with round or square bales or for going somewhere with friends, visitors, or potential cattle buyers..., my little 2 wd ford ranger run around in truck, the little 4wd ranger farm truck that is good in the fields  for cow checking and feeding in winter....Big flat bed truck and dump truck....These have all been acquired over time and PAID for and we just don't get rid of them.  We do have pretty decent laws for farm vehicles here so don't have to have tags and they are covered under the farm liability policy since they are "seasonal" use.  Plus my son has a small gmc pickup that he drives to work.  We are truck poor, but when you need one....


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## Latestarter

farmerjan said:


> ...Big flat bed truck and dump truck.... _These have all been acquired over time and PAID for and we just don't get rid of them...._


  I believe that's why when you drive past just about any working farm that has been worked continuously over many years... there's always one section of field that has all manner of machinery "parked" there for "safe keeping/future use"... even if only for "parts" Any piece of equipment that isn't needed just gets moved there and the occupied space grows over the years. I've seen some farms you'd think they had their own junk yard.


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## NH homesteader

I wouldn't know anything about that


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## Bruce

Who needs a truck? It is farther to anywhere I could rent a truck than it is to TSC. And the wrong direction and a lot of time to pick up and drop off and pay for gas in a truck that gets terrible MPG. 

Trip 1:

12' corral panel on the Thule roof racks under nine 16' cattle panels
6 treated 5" 8' round posts in the car
25 7' T-posts in the car
330' woven field fence on the cargo tray
other stuff for fencing like brace wire, wire strainers, hinges and bolt hooks in the car.
Trip 2:

12' corral panel on the Thule roof racks under nine 16' cattle panels
12 treated 6" 8' round posts in the car. That was tight, couldn't have gotten 13 in there, at least not if I wanted the hatch closed (and I do).
Total travel time < 1 hour, total miles, 32. Total gas:  $1.50. Love my Prius "truck"


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## Bruce

@greybeard 
Regarding: "When we stretch wire, we do exactly that--we are pulling it and making it longer than it is when it came off the roll--hence the 'stretching' term."

When I buy a 330' roll of fencing is that the length on the roll or the length AFTER stretching it? I got out my long tape to make sticking the t-posts in every 10' easier rather than having to measure, pound, measure, pound... . Never had a need to use anywhere near the entire tape before. I noticed it ran out at 330' which just happens (without planning on my part) to be the exact length of the west side of my project. I'm guessing the fact that it is the same as a roll of fence is not a coincidence.


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## farmerjan

GOD BLESS YOUR POOR CAR!!!!!!


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## Baymule

Haha  @Bruce I like your style. I had a 2003 Ford Focus wagon that I could stack 750 pounds of horse feed in, plus strap 4 bales of hay on top. The guys at the feed store always laughed when I showed up in my Focus "truck"


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## farmerjan

It is actual length of the wire.  When you stretch it , you are not going to gain a significant amount more length.  Can't say exactly but maybe a foot or two..enough to wrap around the posts.  Here they attach both ends to the brace posts and then actually pull in the middle and reattach the wire.  I couldn't get the reason until they showed me that this way the pressure is equal on each brace section and it would not pull either one out of balance and the fence actually stays tighter.  Still seems a little nutty to me but I do see the reasoning.  We usually put in some of the t-posts after the wire is stretched so that we can get them against it.  Using a t-post driver, it gets them close and then you aren't trying to work around them while stretching.  If it is all wood posts then they are driven in first using a string to keep them straight.  Gotta have a good eye to keep them both in a straight line and  straight upright.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> @greybeard
> Regarding: "When we stretch wire, we do exactly that--we are pulling it and making it longer than it is when it came off the roll--hence the 'stretching' term."
> 
> When I buy a 330' roll of fencing is that the length on the roll or the length AFTER stretching it? I got out my long tape to make sticking the t-posts in every 10' easier rather than having to measure, pound, measure, pound... . Never had a need to use anywhere near the entire tape before. I noticed it ran out at 330' which just happens (without planning on my part) to be the exact length of the west side of my project. I'm guessing the fact that it is the same as a roll of fence is not a coincidence.


Good question. I previously stated "_ and it all/each stretches a set amt per foot for any given type of wire._
That should have been "_ and it all/each stretches a set amt per 100 foot for any given type of wire._

I don't do a lot of woven or knotted wire anymore, tho I did run about 2500' in 2 pulls of what we called 4' tall hog wire back in the late 60s early 70s.  Pulled the slack out of it with a tractor first, then tied the fence stretcher on. We got about 2, maybe 3 feet of stretch out of each 1250' sections. Wire composition was different back in those days--very little zinc in it and it had a LOT of give to it. 
Modern Hi Tensile wire has very little give to it. 

Jan--I've strung and stretched hundreds of miles of slick and barbed wire. Never used string once--seemed a waste considering I knew at some point I was going to have to stretch wire anyway. That stretched wire told me exactly where the posts needed to go.  We did the hog wire the same way and put the posts in afterwards.


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## farmerjan

GB,  different places different ways; every fencing demonstration and all that I have helped with we put the wood posts in first; post driver, not dug and tamped, and then stretched the wire.  My son has a good eye for it, I don't.  We also don't have very many straight stretches here for very long a length, too many hills, dips, rock ledge to go around or over or something.  I am by no means a fence builder...I am the go-fer and staple hammerer...


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## greybeard

Middle of this picture, is a 5 strand fence that crosses 3 waterways, and they aren't as clean or flat as this pic indicates. 2 creeks angle off to top left, another almost straight up.  There's another fence on the extreme right going top to bottom that crosses the tail end of the pond going off straight to the right. 

 
Here's what they look like close up.


 

That's the only places I used a string...to tie to the end of the wire, weight the other end of the string and trow the weight across the creek and then cross over and pull the wire to me till I got to the next creek.  This is north part of a 2200' long fence that divides a 40 ac tract from another 40 ac tract withing the family. There's another 2200' long fence on the south side separating another 40 ac tract. 

Except for the exterior/perimeter fence on the family property of 124 ac that my brother & I built in '65-66, I built all the subdivison fences since 2008 and did them by myself. (My kids are all grown and gone) 

When I started in 2007, this place was still covered in forest. The first thing I did was throw together a fencing trailer to hold a spool of barb wire instead of having to try carrying a spool along.  I still use it today, but now that I've got it cleared, I can just pull the trailer along and let the wire unspool.


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## farmerjan

NEAT way to unroll the wire off the trailer, and carry supplies.  Mostly where we use barbed wire now, is in the wooded parts of rented pastures, and there's alot of trees, brush,  "garbage" scrub trees and shrubs & stuff.  It's all walk and carry with most places not even clear enough to ride a 4 wheeler.  But it is interesting that even as a kid when we used barbed wire in CT for my horse pasture (horrors to some people) we put what posts we needed in first.  That's how I learned and here in VA we went to a day long seminar and some professionals that run miles and miles of fence all put in the posts first.  I think some of that is because the woven wire (field fence) is put on the "inside" of the pastures and naturally you can't drive posts on the other side of the fence once it is up.  The barbed wire fences that I grew up, with and that are fine for the horses and cattle, won't begin to hold the dall sheep and won't deter any predators; so we don't use it  anywhere we might be able to put the sheep.  Most landlords want woven wire if a fence gets replaced.  
The pictures surprised me a bit as I didn't realize that there was as much green and trees there, and the land isn't as flat as I thought.  Maybe that's more of the western part of the state?


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## greybeard

Mine is pretty flat--gently slopes to the far right in the aerial picture, which is a small river. I cleared most of it. When I started, it looked like this: (black sq is where my house is now)
 

Surrounded by 116,000 ac of US  national forest.


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## Baymule

People think that Texas is flat desert. Some of it is......Most of it isn't. The southern most of the state is semi-tropical. West Texas is dry with scrubby trees, but it does have the Davis mountains. The Gulf Coast region is humid, has hot summers and warmer winters than most of the state. Southeast and northeast Texas are both carpeted with lush forest, grassy fields, cattle and agriculture. The pan handle is heavy agricultural lands, mostly irrigated. Central Texas is known as the Hill Country with beautiful views, it is in high demand. So, yes, Texas has it's emerald green jewels.


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## Latestarter

Not quite as "rolling" as western VA mind you, but nowhere near flat. You'd probably be pleasantly surprised


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## Bruce

OK, potentially stupid question: Does it matter if you put the cattle panels with the vertical or horizontal wires on the animal side? 

Also, I think it is "normal" to hang them with the 2 shorter vertically spaced wires on the bottom. Is there a specific reason to do that, or NOT do that?

Thanks


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## Latestarter

I think you want the horizontal wires on the animal side. less access to the welds. I've always seen the smaller spacings go down low. Perhaps to keep young animals, more susceptible to putting their heads through a fence, from doing so as easily.


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## farmerjan

Latestarter said:


> I think you want the horizontal wires on the animal side. less access top the welds. I've always seen he smaller spacings go down low. Perhaps to keep young animals, more susceptible to putting their heads through a fence, from doing so as easily.



Yeah, we always put the horizontal wires on the animal sides, don't know if it is "right" but that's the way we do it.  Probably as latestarter said, to keep the animals from access to the vertical welds.  Yes the smaller spaces go on the bottom and yes, to keep younger, smaller animals from being able to go through.  I am assuming that you got the "combination" panels that have the closer spaced horizontals on the bottom?  They also make a cattle panel that the horizontals are about the same top to bottom.  I like to use these for the garden - tomato tie ups - and any climbing beans or gourds or anything.  Easier to strip off the old dead plants after frost. Usually are the same price although I think there is 1 less horizontal so a tad less strong.


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## Bruce

Yes, there are 2 rows of "less tall" openings on the "bottom". Since I need the CP part of the fence to keep the chickens in as well as all other animals, I'm going to weave some solid wire through the larger openings. I have a lot of old (not the really rusted stuff ) hotwire that looks new. I pulled it off the perimeter and cross fencing the prior owner had put up. 2"-2.5" pointed non treated posts, maybe 18" down for the deep ones, 12" for many. Posts rotting and falling down, hotwire broken and hiding in the grass to screw up a mower. Some of the hotwire smaller diameter than other. Some rusted to the point that it breaks if you bend it. Just a big dangerous mess and not worth repairing but I can use the solid wire that is in good shape to keep chickens on the right side of the fence.


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## Mike CHS

Not trying to hijack but has anyone any experience with high tensile woven wire?  I saw some the other day and it appears to have all the strength of the regular woven wire but a lot of pros. The price was better than the sheep and goat fence also.


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## farmerjan

Mike CHS said:


> Not trying to hijack but has anyone any experience with high tensile woven wire?  I saw some the other day and it appears to have all the strength of the regular woven wire but a lot of pros. The price was better than the sheep and goat fence also.


Most all the woven wire sold here is high tensile strength now unless you specifically order the older style.  It is usually a little thinner wire, it does have more "stretchability'  and will withstand more abuse.  It is also more brittle and when it breaks it really snaps.  It is used alot so that if smaller limbs fall on it, it will snap back rather than kink and bend and it keeps its shape a little better when an animal pushes, rubs, shoves against it. A little trickier to stretch as you just have to be careful due to the more "brittle" breaking point but it is used all the time here now.  We aren't big fans of it, but that's just us.


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## Mike CHS

Thanks Jan - I may do a small training paddock to check it out.


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## Bruce

I'm actually doing both. I bought a roll of S&G from TSC. Yeah really expensive. Not sure how I missed the woven field fence. I bought that for my second roll for my project. About $100 less and Redbrand S&G has the same wire sizes as their woven field fence (at least what TSC is selling, I don't know if they make a "lower" grade version.


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## Bruce

Next question (you knew there would be more, right?)

This is the north side of the project. Hopefully these pictures will give an idea of the fairly steep drop before the decline becomes fairly gradual. The drop is about 4' in the first 18' and steeper at the top than the bottom of that pitch.


 

This is the gate at the top of that pitch, "biggify" the second picture to see it from the downhill side.


I need to brace that post (the pin on the latch holds the gate up when it is closed so not bracing it earlier was a "timing" decision) and run field fence down the hill to the NW corner post (lower right corner of first picture). If I stuff an 8' post 5' in the ground 8' from the existing gate post, the horizontal brace will barely be off the ground and useless. Is it reasonable/kosher/functional to cut the brace so it follows the pitch down the hill and mount it the same height off the ground as I would if the ground were level? I can't imagine a floating brace would be useful with that much pitch.

And since the pitch continues down, would I even be able to tension the fence out to the NW corner post? Seems like I almost need a braced post (both directions!) at the bottom of the steep pitch as well and two pulls of fence. 

You might also notice that there is a gate in the current fence just beyond the steep pitch (it is standing only because it is tied to the posts). It would be nice to put a gate in the new fence in the same approximate location so now I'm looking at a Double H brace with one of the "horizontals" being 10' and the other 8' and ANOTHER braced post past the gate. At this point I really don't think I have time to stick in any more braced posts than that so I'll likely have some "do over" next year. 

I need some ideas please!

Here is a picture of the "quality" of the current fence


And here are pictures of the rocks around the tree on the south side. I don't know about you all but *I* am not capable of moving them.

Looking west


Looking Southeast


Looking East


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> Next question (you knew there would be more, right?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I need to brace that post (the pin on the latch holds the gate up when it is closed so not bracing it earlier was a "timing" decision) and run field fence down the hill to the NW corner post (lower right corner of first picture). If I stuff an 8' post 5' in the ground 8' from the existing gate post, the horizontal brace will barely be off the ground and useless. Is it reasonable/kosher/functional to cut the brace so it follows the pitch down the hill and mount it the same height off the ground as I would if the ground were level? I can't imagine a floating brace would be useful with that much pitch.
> 
> And since the pitch continues down, would I even be able to tension the fence out to the NW corner post? Seems like I almost need a braced post (both directions!) at the bottom of the steep pitch as well and two pulls of fence.


Sometimes, you just gotta do whatever works and conventional 'guidance' be danged.
There's no real reason to put an 8' post in the ground 5' unless it is going to get a LOT of animal pressure, is soggy ground, is going to be hundreds of feet ow wire tension on it, or there will be risk of flood water running against the fence. I shoot for 4' depth most of the time--sometimes only get the hole 3 1/2 feet deep.  Also, that 8' length on the horizontal brace post--I rarely use anything other than a standard 6 1/2' long wooden post.  

I'd probably this this, and play with the dimensions to suit your real needs. Just remember, any post more than a few inches above the top wire is just holding up air.



 
I would 'X' your brace wires--one direction to support the gate--opposite direction to help bear fence tension.
I never use floating braces at the hinge end of a gate. They will offset the fence strain, but do nothing as far as supporting the gate. They can only work in one direction.
6 1/2 horizontal brace at a gate's hinge side:


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## Bruce

OOPS! I meant 5' OUT of the ground, 3' in . I can't imagine I could dig a hole 5' deep even if there were no rocks and the digging was easy. I'm having enough trouble getting down to 3' with most of them.

I have plenty of 6 1/2' posts, that is what most of the decent diameter ones that I've removed are. They aren't treated though, maybe not such a good idea to use them. I do have some treated "4x4" landscape timbers that the prior owner used as posts (those on the gate are 2 of them. The one on the hinge side came complete with concrete. Kind of a PITA getting it into the poly dump cart and over to where I needed it. The excavator pulled it out when the solar panels were put in so the cement truck could get to the site. 

Yep, I know I need to X the wires for support in both directions when I have both a gate and fence.

Can I really put wire fence under tension on that steep a slope? Seems like it would just pop the T-posts straight up out of the ground where the "steep" shifts to "gradual".

"any post more than a few inches above the top wire is just holding up air"
Or hot wire


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## greybeard

I'll have to draw a pic to show you how I did both the approaches to my pond dam, as well as where my fences went down to a quick sharp drop at the creeks. It involves some extra wooden posts.


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## Bruce

Now that we have fence bracing mastered (OK, just got started learning though the second H brace was easier than the first):

WITHOUT creating a temporary H brace beyond the end post (which would be a MAJOR PITA, extra work and in minimally one case, creating it on someone else's property) how do you anchor the come-alongs to pull the fence? If it is anchored on the end posts, do you:

Nail it to the brace post then more or less hand tighten it around the end post?
Nail it top and bottom then move the come-along to the brace post and pull the fence around the end post? Somehow I can only see that as ineffective since the woven wire isn't exactly going to slip around a wood post. I guess one could put a metal pipe on the back side of the post so the fence could (maybe) slide.
Something else?
I will have a gate in the west line so there will be a double wired H brace for the hinge side. I can use that to pull the fence from fence from the corner to the strike side post. Won't work the other way around though. Maybe I can make a Q&D temporary floating brace inside the gate swing area to use the strike post to pull the fence to the hinge post? Same with the east line. Not sure about the north line since I may not have a gate there right off.


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## Latestarter

Do you have a vehicle that you can pull up to attache the come along to? or maybe a tree or something a little ways off?


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## Bruce

Nope and nope  The come-alongs would make my garden tractor "come along" 

And a single point to a vehicle would be a bad plan (I know it is not uncommon though) since the height of that point on the vehicle (shy maybe an FEL on a tractor which is height adjustable) wouldn't likely be anywhere near the center of the fence puller. Plus, there is no guarantee that you can pull equally on the top and bottom of the stretcher when you join those to a common pull point and put the come-alongs between that and the "solid point".

Another thought: 

A long piece of rebar could be stuck in the ground like a tent stake
A tensioned brace wire goes from that to the post you want to pull against about the same height as the upper come-along. 
Also tension a wire for the bottom come-along to the "stake". 
That "pull against" post could be a temporary T-Post right? Lots easier to get in the ground far enough to do any good than a 6" post.
SEEMS like it would work and not be a whole lot of extra effort (unless you hit ledge not far down)

Another thing I saw on YouTube was two tension bars and pulling fence from both ends to the middle. Seems a bit squirrely to cut the fence then have to join it back together but if you can do it in the middle of a gate opening, it would be 2 pieces of fence anyway. That will work on the west side of the project. Since I'll be making my own fence puller I can make two, just a few extra bolts, washers and nuts. I have PLENTY of 2x4s that were ripped out of the rebuilt part of the house.


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## Bruce

Well, I sort of lied (old age lack of attention I guess). There IS a small group of trees (so close they are almost one) west of the NW post. If I got some long enough chains I could pull the north piece of fence to them.

Made my first floating brace today for the SE corner. Note to self (and maybe others) next time tap in the fence staples on the bottom of the brace BEFORE installing it. PITA trying to get them in close to the ground. Got it all wired with the strainer just before it got too dark to see what I was doing to put the tools away.

I did not notch the post. I cut the angles on the brace then stuck it in place and drilled through the post into the brace (down the center of the brace) with my 11" drill bit and hammered in the 10" brace pin. All wired up that sucker is STIFF!! Makes me feel more confident that the post in the NW corner that I am going to concrete in will be more than stiff enough braced in 2 directions.

BTW, when I made the first H brace it was a pain to get the brace lined up and level and the hole in the brace post just right to match the predrilled hole in the brace. And when it was done the brace wasn't totally in contact with the posts, I used my ratchet straps to pull them together and set the pins all the way. PITA! When I made the second one I trapped the brace between the posts and used the ratchet straps to hold it tight while I drilled the hole for the pin in the brace post and brace as I did today for the floating brace. SO MUCH EASIER! I see no reason to pre-drill anything on this. Especially if you are going to hang a gate on the H, you'll need to cross brace it anyway so why not drill through both posts into the "trapped" brace so you can leave an inch or so of pin out to hold the wire up?


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## carrie palmer

Check this doc for instructionshttp://theurbanrancher.tamu.edu/construction/fencesforthefarm.pdf


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## Bruce

Thanks for the link Carrie and


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## Bruce

OK, this is what I did at the high side:

 

Note that I ran the brace wire up to just above the upper bolt hook on the gate post rather than where the brace is located. Figured, as @greybeard said, anything above the brace is holding up only air, hoping that translates to "anything above the brace wire is holding up only air". If this is incorrect and I should lower it to the level of the brace, let me know.  I still need to add cross bracing on both of these since the bottom half will be supporting a gate and fencing coming down from the top post. And the top post needs it because it will be the anchor point for the 16' of fence on this double H. Going to look kind of squirrelly with the vertical fence wires not being even minimally vertical.

And here is my NW corner post, floating braces and cemented. Not real fond of the idea of the strainers just laying near ground level. Do people do anything to protect them from the elements so they will still be workable in a year or 3?


You can see the height difference between the top gate and the NW corner post. The white line is the string marking the fence line, it is not attached to the ~4' high posts in the existing fence, just looks like it. Since I'm putting a gate on the low end of the double H, the actual fence run will start lower.
 

And here is the H brace on the North end of the East line. I kinda messed up with the first strainer, it is almost dead center. That would be OK if it wasn't double braced but fortunately the second wire just misses it. There will be a gate on the left side of this and fence running south to the right.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> And here is my NW corner post, floating braces and cemented. Not real fond of the idea of the strainers just laying near ground level. Do people do anything to protect them from the elements so they will still be workable in a year or 3?
> View attachment 24222


The ones I use and have seen are all galvanized and aluminum. Never had problems with them later down the road. Some of mine have ended up almost buried in the dirt and still work fine.
I got called away on family stuff out of state right after I said I would show how I did my uneven ground fence lines, but you did fine.
One thing tho. Use as large a slab concrete under the floating brace as you can find. That slab or rock takes tremendous pressure 24/7 for years and if it gets pressed down into the ground, the vertical post will lean and the fence integrity will be compromised. You can go back and take a few more clicks on the ratchet but odds are, it will just sink again later.

For general purposes, and mostly for future reference to those who have never built a fence, let's look at how corners and ends actually work. I have often been accused of overthinking things, but I have always found it easier to do and/or fix things if I know 'why' things work. This is probably one of those times

On a traditional  H brace, the wire tied to the anchor post, (post a below) and H braces work, by transmitting 1/2 the tension that is on that anchor post, on to the vertical brace post (b). Ideally, both of the vertical posts will have equal tension on them, with that tension transmitted by the horizontal post(c) between the vertical posts. Remember--the whole point of any brace type is to prevent the anchor post (a)from moving laterally in the soil. The staples in the brace post(b) don't really take much of the strain off the anchor post--they are driven in after the strain is applied to the anchor post--on top of that, wire tends to slip thru the staples after a period of time anyway.





In the above example, I have two 8" diameter posts planted 36" in the soil. The thing that prevents a post from moving, is the total area of soil presented to the posts. Depth X width. In this example, each hole presents 288 sq inches of soil resistance to strain caused movement for a total of 576 sq inches. This can be increased in a number of ways.
a. Dig the hole deeper and/or use a larger diameter post.
b. Dig the hole wider (let's say 12" diameter) and pour concrete around the 8" post effectively turning two 8" dia posts into two 12" diameter posts.
c Dig the hole wider, and deeper & pour the concrete.
It's all about presenting more area of soil resistance to tension.
Take an index finger, stiffen it and poke it into the ground- note the penetration.
Make a fist and push with the same effort-note the penetration. Penetration will be less with the fist because of increased soil area in sq inches to force exerted.
For discussion and comparison, let's just stick with 8" diameter posts, buried in native soil 36" deep..

If, you have a rock or other impenetrable strata where you want your corner or end posts, and can't dog very deep, you are stuck with having a shallower hole, so you will want to use a larger diameter post or.. the same diameter post, but a larger hole with concrete poured around the post. It all depends on soil type, rainfall, and how long the run of the fence is.

Now, let's look at how a floating brace works. You will have your same anchor post (a) but no vertical brace post upon which to transmit tension to. The tension in a floating brace setup is transmitted down to the rock or slab that sits under the diagonal brace. The diagonal takes the place of the horizontal post (c) and the slab or rock takes the place of the vertical brace post(b).

In order to relieve and disperse about 1/2 the strain on the anchor post(a).. the area in sq in of the slab or rock needs to roughly equate the same area in sq inches as the vertical brace post would offer in an H setup.
In the crude drawing below, we have the same 8" diameter anchor post(a)  36" in the ground. The same 288 sq in of surface area of soil presented in resistance to movement.





The slab in this picture is only 12"x12" which means it has a surface area of only 144 sq inches, providing a combined total soil surface area of resistance to movement of 432 sq inches. We have saved ourselves digging an extra hole and the cost of a big post, but now have a setup that is less effective than a traditional H post corner or end. What to do?
Increase the size of the slab or rock to approximately "17 X 17" or anywhere close to it. 17x17=289 sq inches + the 288 sq inches from post a=577 sq inches. Any increase will do fine tho. I sometimes use two 14"x14" paving stones, with a 12"X12" paver centered on top of the seam where the 2 pavers meet. That roughly doubles the size of the slab.


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## Bruce

So I guess I'll need to increase the the size of my rock surfaces. That should be fun now that the fence is stretched. I have a floating brace at both the NW corner (the one that is 2' down and concreted) and the strike post for the gate (in the west fence line). I used large rocks fairly flat on 1 side. About 8"-10" by maybe 14"-18". Also, I used 6" posts not 8".


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## greybeard

The numbers I used were just examples--there's no specific sizes required or 'formula'--you just need the soil under the rock/slab to roughly be able to carry the same load a vertical brace post would in an H  setup since that diagonal post and slab is taking the place of the H's vertical race post.
Your 24" deep 6" anchor post is presenting 144 sq inches of surface area.



> About 8"-10" by maybe 14"-18". Also, I used 6" posts not 8".


Taking the middle number (9"x16") you provided 144 sq inches of resistance at the slab, which is exactly the same as your anchor post.

Now, whether 2' deep is enough is a different question--it won't work in my area and my soil type, rainfall, and brahma influenced cattle pressure, but might work fine in your application and needs.

For here, deeper is always better..3'-4'.


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## Bruce

Yeah I know but since I don't have a jackhammer I had to stop at the ledge 2' down. BTW thanks for the diagram and calculations. Very nice.

BTW, don't know if you saw this on the other thread @greybeard






These are the things that make my fencing job more difficult. Top of that rock is 2' down, I don't even know the extent of it vertically nor to the north (up in the picture) and east. This hole was supposed to be the gate post in the west fence line. The post was supposed to be centered ~ 5" from the top of the picture based on the strike post hole (which was dictated by a rock I hit). I dug the strike post hole first and when I hit this I dug the brace post hole THINKING that it was a rock I could get out. That was when I had a ~10" diameter hole. So I had to dig 3 new holes when I determined there was no way *I* was getting this rock out and dug the 3' hole for the gate post on the south side (bottom of picture) of the big rock.


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## Bossroo

While I don't have solid rock 2 ft down, but I do have hardpan  up to 6 inches thick ranging from on the surface to 3- 5 ft. down below the surface.  The soil surface has 6 different types of soil from erosion from the nearby mountains.  2 of this  eroded soil are hard as a rock when dry, but after a rain the surface is so soft and slippery that when you walk on it you are at risk of slipping and sliding and often falling.  So a rock of slab would be problamatic to use as a brace support for an end or gate post. Most people use a   " H " brace with the posts 8" -10" diameter and extended down below the hardpan. However, I use 4" diameter galvenized steel posts for an "H" brace extending below the hardpan and set in a 12" to 16" diameter concrete slab.


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## greybeard

Bruce said:


> Yeah I know but since I don't have a jackhammer I had to stop at the ledge 2' down. BTW thanks for the diagram and calculations. Very nice.
> 
> BTW, don't know if you saw this on the other thread @greybeard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the things that make my fencing job more difficult. Top of that rock is 2' down, I don't even know the extent of it vertically nor to the north (up in the picture) and east. This hole was supposed to be the gate post in the west fence line. The post was supposed to be centered ~ 5" from the top of the picture based on the strike post hole (which was dictated by a rock I hit). I dug the strike post hole first and when I hit this I dug the brace post hole THINKING that it was a rock I could get out. That was when I had a ~10" diameter hole. So I had to dig 3 new holes when I determined there was no way *I* was getting this rock out and dug the 3' hole for the gate post on the south side (bottom of picture) of the big rock.


I would probably have brushed the dirt off the rock good, set the post where it needed to be and poured the concrete in, cementing the post TO the rock in the process--making the post just as immovable as the rock.


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## Bruce

I could have but I really don't like the idea of cementing posts in the middle of the field. It would be different if it were a property line fence.



Bossroo said:


> While I don't have solid rock 2 ft down, but I do have hardpan  up to 6 inches thick ranging from on the surface to 3- 5 ft. down below the surface.  The soil surface has 6 different types of soil from erosion from the nearby mountains.  2 of this  eroded soil are hard as a rock when dry, but after a rain the surface is so soft and slippery that when you walk on it you are at risk of slipping and sliding and often falling.  So a rock of slab would be problamatic to use as a brace support for an end or gate post. Most people use a   " H " brace with the posts 8" -10" diameter and extended down below the hardpan. However, I use 4" diameter galvenized steel posts for an "H" brace extending below the hardpan and set in a 12" to 16" diameter concrete slab.



Well that sounds fun!!! But you can use a power post hole digger or pounder, no?


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## Bossroo

Bruce said:


> I could have but I really don't like the idea of cementing posts in the middle of the field. It would be different if it were a property line fence.
> 
> 
> 
> Well that sounds fun!!! But you can use a power post hole digger or pounder, no?


Only the power hole auger.  But depending on how deep the wet sediment soil is, the posts would be leaning in short order if they are not cemented in.


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## CntryBoy777

Does the strength and support change in any way in relationship to the angle of the corner? Whether obtuse or acute? Is the optimal 90degs?


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## Bruce

If you are talking about the angle of the brace wire on an H-brace, I think optimal is 30 degrees at the top, 60 degrees at the bottom. The higher the number of the wire at the top, the more it is not only trying to pull the other post to it but also vertically out of the ground. 

JUST A GUESS but I would think you wouldn't want to go any more than 45 degrees. That would make the horizontal and vertical pull equal. Any higher and the vertical pull is greater. However, I don't know how much tension one would have to put on a fence to require enough brace wire tension to actually start to lift the post at various wire angles. I'm sure there are other factors as well, such as how deep the brace post is in the ground.

I used 8' braces because that is how long the posts were  They are 3' (mostly) in the ground and the braces are centered at 3.75' because my posts are 5' out of the ground and somewhere I read that the brace should be at 75% of the height of the post. 

I found this, might be helpful:
http://www.progressivecattle.com/to...6-4-steps-to-construct-a-long-lasting-h-brace


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## CntryBoy777

I was speaking of the angle of the corner being made by the fence itself, or would you have to treat each side separately as a straight line, just connected at the corner to make the turn.


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## Bruce

Ah, sorry. 

If you use @greybeard's suggestion that you never turn a tensioned fence around a corner post but tie it off (*) at the post every time it changes direction, it wouldn't matter if the corner is 90 degrees or something else. Doing it that way means the tension on the fence is pulling in only 1 direction and you have already braced the post for that direction. If you carry the fence around the corner, the tension on the 2 sides of the pole will want to pull the post inward.

* tying off meaning you wrap each horizontal wire (under tension) around the post and tie it back to itself.


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## CntryBoy777

Oh, okay thanks Bruce.


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## Alaskan

Just for info... if anyone is reading through this about making fence on rocky land...

This is a great (long, but has pictures, oodles of info) pamphlet. 



			https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf88242803/pdf88242803dpi300.pdf
		


When you just can't dig a Rock Jack is the way to go (and that is explained in the link).


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## Kusanar

Bruce said:


> Ah, sorry.
> 
> If you use @greybeard's suggestion that you never turn a tensioned fence around a corner post but tie it off (*) at the post every time it changes direction, it wouldn't matter if the corner is 90 degrees or something else. Doing it that way means the tension on the fence is pulling in only 1 direction and you have already braced the post for that direction. If you carry the fence around the corner, the tension on the 2 sides of the pole will want to pull the post inward.
> 
> * tying off meaning you wrap each horizontal wire (under tension) around the post and tie it back to itself.


I know this is a little old, but when we did my fence, we ran the woven wire around the inside of the posts EXCEPT for corners that would make the wire pull on the staples, then we lifted the wire up over the posts and dropped it back down on the outside of the corner and braces. Every corner post has a support post on each side with the H brace and x'd wires so having the wire pulling on the outside of the post isn't a problem as it is supported in both directions anyway and couldn't lean if it tried. 

Granted we were running the woven wire using the tractor and had the fence on a contraption in the bucket so lifting it over 5-6' posts wasn't a big deal, just had to have someone on the other side to guide it as the bucket came back down. We used the tractor to tension it too, locked the roll so it couldn't spin and then pulled the tractor up until it was tight, then stapled everything in place, backed up, unlocked the roll and went on down the field another post or 2 before we repeated the process.


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