# What kind of Guardian does your herd have?



## carolinagirl

This room looked a little bit empty so I thought I'd start a thread.  So tell me....what kind of guardian does your herd/flock have?  Are you happy with your choice?

I have.....actually I almost have an Anatolian Shepherd.  He's 12 days old so he can't come home for a while longer, but I am really happy with my choice.  I actually found this breed when I was looking for a home guardian.  I had a list of criteria, and the LGD breeds fit pretty well, with an Anatolian being a perfect fit.  And since I may want to breed them later down the road (after OFA certs and a good show record), I decided I needed to get some livestock for him.  I chose Barbados Black Belly sheep and Katahdin sheep.  So now I have the sheep....but no puppy yet.  But he's mine....I just have to be patient.

It took me a long time to find my breeder and I am currently searching for the breeder of my female pup.  I am hoping to get her early next year.


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## elevan

I have a llama.

He didn't start out as a guardian though.  We sort of rescued him.  I say sort of because when I went to pick up 3 of my goats, I saw the ladies husband chasing their llamas around with a broom handle.  I politely said that I'd been looking for a llama and if they were ever interested in selling one I'd love to buy one.  She said "How's $100 sound"...I said I'd be back the next weekend.

Jerry was very wary of men (as you can imagine) and it took months before my DH could build his trust.

He wasn't interested in the goats at first.  Not until the first batch of kids arrived after he came.  That was when he started protecting them.  He's now a wonderful guard.

Oh, and he is an intact male.


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## carolinagirl

That's a great story!  I adore llamas but they don't do too well here in South Carolina with the heat and humidity we have.  I had 3 for a while but they really suffered in the heat and I didn't have a good shady cool spot for them so I sold them.  they were so sweet and gentle!


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## yinzer81

I have donkeys. I know it's not suppose to work but it does. It took them a little while to get use to eachother, I have 3 donks and just 2 goats and 26 chickens.(soon to be 50) The donkeys are very protective of their area, so I don't know if they're actually guarding the goats and chickens, or just their property.  Whatever it is, they chase everything, including deer, and my dog and cats, out of the pasture.  So far I haven't lost any to preditors, and my chickens free range all day, only go in the coop at night. They're all jennys.


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## jodief100

Great Pys.  I "bought" two as adults that supposedly had lived with goats.  I say bought becasue I paid for them but it was a mercy mission.  The female, Snowy is terrified of men.  They were skinny and obviously nto well cared for.  They have come along great.  Snowy is getting better with beign terrified but she still will only come to me and not hubby.  She does a good job with the goats most of the time but certianly is not perfect.  The male, Junior has put on 50 lbs since I got him and is turning out to be a good guardian.  He chased the kids the first 6 months or so but he was only a year and still being a puppy.  Jack is 8 months old and I just got him a fe wmonths ago.  He is bonding well with the bucks and is growing into a good LGD.  He still chases little goats which is why he is with the bucks for now.


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## ksj0225

I have a 9 month old great pyrenesses female.  So far she is a super star!!!

Next week she gets spayed and shaved.  Yes I know some say don't shave them.  And if you do, I should have shaved earlier in the spring however.

TICKS, TICKS, and more TICKS...

I can't keep them off of her...  So a shave down it is.


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## lilhill

A Great Pyr here.  Daisy was 13 months old when we got her and she is almost 5 now.  Don't know what we would do without her.  I am thinking about getting another one for her to train.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

Great Pyrenees here, too.  Ours in 10 months and already proving to be exactly what we were looking for.


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## carolinagirl

It's good to see all these dogs excelling at doing exactly what they were bred to do.


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## greenfamilyfarms

We have 2 Great Pyrenees - 1 male and 1 female. The male is the one that runs towards the disturbance while the female stands back with the goats.


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## Cabinchick

Hi all:

I am so glad we were able to rally together and get this thread going! Yay! I don't have a LGD yet. I'm looking for something to guard my chicken flock - no goats or sheep. We plan on getting a couple of calves next year. What would you recommend? Oh and I would like to get a little piglet too next year. We'll have all kinds of predators around and I don't want to lose any of my flock


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## MonsterMalak

I ran Great Pyrenees for 16 years, with limited success in protecting my small farm and exotic fowl.  For the past 7 years, my losses have been minimal after getting my first Kangals.  They have a far more proactive or predator removal method of control.

I recently imported in some Boz Shepherds Guregh from Turkey.  They are very similar to the Kangal, more like a Kangal on steroids.  They are a HUGE dog, and probable one of the most physically capable LGD's.  At 8 months old, they would be able to handle anything East Texas could throw at them.  

Have to say that I have admiration and respect for all LGD breeds.  And if they work for you, you have to respect them.    Any dog that will put their life on the line to protect you and the things you value, deserves your love.


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## Cabinchick

MonsterMalak, I've been checking out Boz Shepherds Guregh. Beautiful dogs  I am very impressed. Would do well with a very small homestead type environment - or are they happier on a large scale ranch? How do they get along with other dogs? My St. Bernard weighs in at 220lbs, but a LGD HE IS NOT  He prefers to snooze quite often and does not wake up easily (I have to step over him).


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## MonsterMalak

I hope answering will not be taken as rude on the thread.  Have to say that I am not fully versed on forum do's and don'ts.

The Boz Shepherd will be happy in any situation.  I have two that are Family house dogs and farm protectors, and one that lives with the livestock.  Like the Kangal, they are active predator removal type of workers.  

I have one Boz that thinks his territory is much larger than my property.  Usually at night, when out on the defensive.  Has not gotten in any trouble, but is a problem due to his expense.  My Kangals all seem to be home bodies.

I would say the Turkish breeds of LGD's have a different method than the Pyrenees.  Where my (previously owned) Pyrenees would stay out all night and bark at the Coyotes that were grouped up howling 200 yards away.  The Kangals and Boz will not tollerate them within 1/2 a mile.  We litterally do not ever hear them howl any more.  And have been 100% effective with predator control.  

Down side is that some have a little more training needed with regards to playing rough.


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## Beekissed

I had GP/lab mix and BC/lab mix for my sheep and chickens.  It was a great mixture as the GP had a deep bark and sounded a warning and the BC/Lab mix was mostly silent and very, very fast....nothing could come in the perimeter and still live.  The 'yotes came near very rarely but never came in, nor the bears.


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## journeysend

Since I am to my max on the number of dogs I want (which is 1 silly Min. Pin. who eats chickens), I have a bronze turkey named Lord Voldemort as my livestock guardian. People think I am crazy when I tell them that he is great at keeping the hawks away. I saw one sitting on the fence checking out my ducks and chickens, but as soon as he got a good look at Voldemort he flew off. He would be no match for a dog, but he does keep stray cats out and he keeps the goats in order. Whenever I get a new adult goat or kid, he always makes sure to let them know who is boss right off hand. When there are new chickens or ducks I have to keep him out of the pen because he will show his dominance and will be mean to them for a few days before accepting them as part of his 'flock'. He is going to be very surprised when he first meets the 10 poults I have waiting for him in my enclosed chicken pen. I am waiting for them to get mostly grown before introducing them to each other.


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## carolinagirl

That's so funny that you have a guard turkey!  We had one years ago that watched over my Old English Game Bantams.  He refereed the roos when they had their battles and he protected the chicks from the cats.  the poor cats got to the point if they even saw a baby chick, they would RUN as fast as they could to get away, fearing the guardian tom was not far behind.  He attacked those cats more than once over baby chicks.


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## elevan

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> That's so funny that you have a guard turkey!  We had one years ago that watched over my Old English Game Bantams.  He refereed the roos when they had their battles and he protected the chicks from the cats.  the poor cats got to the point if they even saw a baby chick, they would RUN as fast as they could to get away, fearing the guardian tom was not far behind.  He attacked those cats more than once over baby chicks.




I just had one of my hens chase off a cat 3x her size this morning!  Never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it.  That tom cat looked at that hen charging at him and took off as if his very life depending on getting out of the field!


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## cindy78

carolinagirl said:
			
		

> This room looked a little bit empty so I thought I'd start a thread.  So tell me....what kind of guardian does your herd/flock have?  Are you happy with your choice?
> 
> I have.....actually I almost have an Anatolian Shepherd.  He's 12 days old so he can't come home for a while longer, but I am really happy with my choice.  I actually found this breed when I was looking for a home guardian.  I had a list of criteria, and the LGD breeds fit pretty well, with an Anatolian being a perfect fit.  And since I may want to breed them later down the road (after OFA certs and a good show record), I decided I needed to get some livestock for him.  I chose Barbados Black Belly sheep and Katahdin sheep.  So now I have the sheep....but no puppy yet.  But he's mine....I just have to be patient.
> 
> It took me a long time to find my breeder and I am currently searching for the breeder of my female pup.  I am hoping to get her early next year.


Thanks for starting this thread!! This is exactly what I was looking for!  I currently have 2 pit bulls, 2 Chihuahuas (soon to be more! Female pregnant!), 3 Nubians, 5 Chikens, 1 white fronted amazon, 3 cockatiels. One of my pit bulls has cancer and I will have to put her down tomorrow  So I am doing research on best dogs for a farm. Even though pit bulls have a bad rap, she is the best pit bull and guardian I have ever had for my animals and family! She is protective of my flock and has scared away stray cats several times! She has never hurt or killed any animals and is very motherly to them. I am very sad about having to put her down but I also need to get another dog to replace her as guardian. I was looking into Labs because I also have children and have heard they are very good dogs but I have never had one. I've only had pit bulls, Siberian Huskies, chihuahuas, american eskimo, sheep dog ( when I was little, very good dog!). 

Any suggestions??


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## ksj0225

Most labs, think chickens are dinner.  Or that has been our experience.


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## elevan

ksj0225 said:
			
		

> Most labs, think chickens are dinner.  Or that has been out experience.


Yep, my labs see birds of any kind and think - 

Maybe a mix would work but it really would depend on the individual animal.


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## carolinagirl

One thing that lead me to the LGD breeds to begin with was their love for children.  Oh sure, lots of dogs love kids, but the LGDs have no prey drive and are almost maternal acting with children.  I originally chose an Anatolian because I wanted a farm guardian that I could trust with my grandchild.  I wanted something large, powerful, with a deep bark, long life, healthy, low maintenance coat and unique in appearance and the Anatolian fit that bill perfectly.


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## ksj0225

I love it when company comes over to see the mini-farm and Bonnie (Great Pyrenees) "herds" my 4.5 year old little girl away from the strangers.  

She wants my daughter to be between her and the "perceived danger" at all times.

We went out late one night and my daughter got scared by the night time noises, I told her to stick with me or Bonnie and she would be fine.


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## dianneS

3/4 Karakachan 1/4 Great Pyr.  Just one dog at this time, but I had a dream last night that I got a second dog!  

He does such a great job too.


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## carolinagirl

dianneS said:
			
		

> 3/4 Karakachan 1/4 Great Pyr.  Just one dog at this time, but I had a dream last night that I got a second dog!
> 
> He does such a great job too.


I'd sure love to see pics of your dog.  Got any??


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## MonsterMalak

CarolinaGirl,

   You touched on a subject that I feel is an underutilized breed for family dogs.  LGD's with their maternal bonding, low prey drive, attentive and patient personalities make WONDERFUL family pets.  To me, these are all great qualities.  

People that know nothing of LGD's are impressed with my Boz that will follow me all day in town off a leash.  Never leaves my side, unless to go get or give a kiss from a child.

Great dogs.  I feel many are scared of all the info on the net with warnings of stubborn, strong willed, hard to train, dominate, etc,etc,,,,,    Of which I do not find true.  Just great dogs!







This is our 9 month old Boz pup.  32.5", 120#. Solid love and defense.


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## carolinagirl

MonsterMalak said:
			
		

> CarolinaGirl,
> 
> You touched on a subject that I feel is an underutilized breed for family dogs.  LGD's with their maternal bonding, low prey drive, attentive and patient personalities make WONDERFUL family pets.  To me, these are all great qualities.
> 
> People that know nothing of LGD's are impressed with my Boz that will follow me all day in town off a leash.  Never leaves my side, unless to go get or give a kiss from a child.
> 
> Great dogs.  I feel many are scared of all the info on the net with warnings of stubborn, strong willed, hard to train, dominate, etc,etc,,,,,    Of which I do not find true.  Just great dogs!
> 
> http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x477/Monster_Malak/AMonster.jpg
> 
> This is our 9 month old Boz pup.  32.5", 120#. Solid love and defense.


that is one BIG puppy!  

I think any dog is what you make of it.  If you toss him out in the pasture to be strictly a LGD, don't be surprised when he acts stubborn, dominate and hard to train.  He is only bonded to the animals.  These dogs are very well smart enough and capability enough to love and guard his human family as well.  It takes more work and more socialization, but it can be done.  In my search for the perfect puppy, I have met countless people that keep Anatolians with their flocks most of the time, but also rotate them out for some human bonding time.  These dogs get to go to shows, camping trips, parks, etc.  They get to spend time in the house being adored house pets.  And then they go back to spend time with the flocks, allowing the next dog to get some human bonding time.  It works beautifully for these people!  This puppy will spend time with us, as a house dog when we are in the house and outside when we are out  He will get plenty of time with the sheep and chickens.  As he gets older and more reliable with the stock, he will spend increasingly more time with them, but still have the chance to spend time with us.  Hopefully I can locate a great female Anatolian early next year and start the process with her too.  Then the two of them can work as a team, but also each get family time.


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## Beekissed

ksj0225 said:
			
		

> Most labs, think chickens are dinner.  Or that has been our experience.


The only dogs I've owned and actually kept are lab or lab mix and my experience has been vastly different.  I trusted my labs implicitly with my birds, rabbits and sheep.  They are loving and affectionate to humans and animals alike and seem to have a guardian-like attitude to what it mine.  

If I could have gotten a pic of my younger lab mix lying in the yard, 20 meaty chicks nested against his sides and one being thoroughly licked between his paws....you could have seen how much love they have to give and how much they love to receive. 

Same dog mourned for days when the sheep were relocated and carried a piece of wool from place to place, slept with it and wouldn't let the chickens get near it.  He really missed his nightly game of tag with the woolly girls.


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## M.R. Lops

We have a Great Pyrenees that stays with our goats and horses.  We originally got him to keep wild animals away from the chickens though.  He's a great dog, but also one of the laziest dogs I've ever seen.  He hates the heat and always finds a cool spot where he stays all day long.


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## carolinagirl

M.R. Lops said:
			
		

> We have a Great Pyrenees that stays with our goats and horses.  We originally got him to keep wild animals away from the chickens though.  He's a great dog, but also one of the laziest dogs I've ever seen.  He hates the heat and always finds a cool spot where he stays all day long.


The coat (or lack of a heavy coat) is another thing that drew me to an Anatolian.  There are a lot of Pyr breeders around here but it's been really hard to locate a decent Anatolian.


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## lgdnevada

M.R. Lops said:
			
		

> We have a Great Pyrenees that stays with our goats and horses.  We originally got him to keep wild animals away from the chickens though.  He's a great dog, but also one of the laziest dogs I've ever seen.  He hates the heat and always finds a cool spot where he stays all day long.


That is what LGDs are supposed to do.  While you are asleep all night your pyr is out there busting his butt keeping predators away.  Please make sure he has access to shade during the heat of the day and access to cool clean water.  All my 17 LGD's do the same thing.  They'll get up and chase something if warranted but they sleep most if not all of the day.  During the night they are up and on it.  Hating heat does not equate lazy......are YOU out in 100+ weather in the blazing sun everyday working?  I did last week and got heatstroke....not doing it anymore....you are very fortunate, your dog is smart...and doing his job.


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## rockdoveranch

Yikes!  I cannot believe I missed this thread.  

We do not have any LGDs, but as some of you know, I did a lot of research on the different breeds a few years back after a neighbor's dog came onto our property and killed a lovely blackbelly ram lamb.  When asking one of our vets who has 3 family members with large goat herds, he said one has a Prys, another Llamas, and the third a donkeys, and that they are all happy with their choices.

Someone I know in East Texas breeds ASDs and she and many of the hair sheep people I know here in Texas swear by them.  Because of my background I know I would do better with Prys.  At one time I was considering a rescue from a Pry rescue group up in North Texas.  I think now, since we are keeping our Trophy rams next to the neighbors property we would get donkeys over there if we ever had another problem, but a certified letter to them letting them know we know the laws here in Texas has convinced them to contain their dogs.

I DO like the look of the ASD and Boz and I KNOW they are EXCELLENT choices, but I have never ever had a dog that protected people, and I do not understand the dynamics.  I know that sounds stupid.  I can read my dogs and they me, so maybe I could do the same with ASDs and Bozs.  I have always believed in my 60 years of having Boxers that if they had to protect me, they would fight to the death.    

We have 4 dogs with strong prey instincts, 2 of which are 6 month old puppies.  I HAVE to have my Boxers.  The GWP was a stray.  And the pups are a healthy mix of both.  Idiot for having such dogs on a "ranch" with 33 sheep with more on the way?  I think YES!  But I need my Boxer!

Carolinagirl, thanks for starting this thread!  I am eager to learn and looking forward to more posts.


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## elevan

Am I the only one who uses a llama?


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## rockdoveranch

elevan said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who uses a llama?


We have a llama breeder a stones throw away from us.  I hate that we cannot see his pastures when we drive by.

I have heard from hair sheep people I know that both llamas and donkeys sometimes stomp newborn sheep and goats to death, and that donkeys have been known to pick newborns up in their mouths and shake them to death.  I guess they do not recognize them as part of the herd when they are born.  Then again, I have heard that you have to be very cautious with LGD puppies as they too can injure and kill newborns.

I love the idea of having a llama.    Elevan, have you ever had a bad experience or known of anyone who has?

I guess this is another reason I do not have LG animals.  I read and read, and yet, I feel like I don't fully get it . . . Flat Lining .  In the other group I was in I was pretty much shamed for not have LG animals, and then when I talked Prys I would get PMs telling me they are not good dogs.

Maybe I am just afraid a LG animal would think I was a prey animal, yet all my dogs bond deeply with me, even my daughter's dog(s).  

Once again, I know I sound like an idiot.  I have seen LGDs at work and walked through them with the shepherds.  I NEED CHOCOLATE!


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## elevan

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I the only one who uses a llama?
> 
> 
> 
> We have a llama breeder a stones throw away from us.  I hate that we cannot see his pastures when we drive by.
> 
> I have heard from hair sheep people I know that both llamas and donkeys sometimes stomp newborn sheep and goats to death, and that donkeys have been known to pick newborns up in their mouths and shake them to death.  I guess they do not recognize them as part of the herd when they are born.  Then again, I have heard that you have to be very cautious with LGD puppies as they too can injure and kill newborns.
> 
> I love the idea of having a llama.    Elevan, have you ever had a bad experience or known of anyone who has?
> 
> I guess this is another reason I do not have LG animals.  I read and read, and yet, I feel like I don't fully get it . . . Flat Lining .  In the other group I was in I was pretty much shamed for not have LG animals, and then when I talked Prys I would get PMs telling me they are not good dogs.
> 
> Maybe I am just afraid a LG animal would think I was a prey animal, yet all my dogs bond deeply with me, even my daughter's dog(s).
> 
> Once again, I know I sound like an idiot.  I have seen LGDs at work and walked through them with the shepherds.  I NEED CHOCOLATE!
Click to expand...

I've heard the horror stories about donkeys and don't know of anyone who uses a donkey.

We have a large sheep farmer just around the corner from us who has a llama as a guard (we have a HUGE llama farm around the corner too...which is where he got his)...Anyway...His guard llama is GREAT with lambs.  You should see them bounce on him  

Not all llamas make good guards though...which is probably why they are a rarer guardian.


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## runamuck

Well  we have a few....  The dogs   Darcey (cattle dog jack russel terrier mix) is the great fox destroyer and with her sidekick Sophie ( bordercollie /irish setter mix)  they keep everything away......  The geese are great for flying evils  and sooooo are the 3 tom turkey who move as one unit  Larry, Curly and MOE  ......


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## MonsterMalak

Rockdoverranch,

I understand your concern for the LGD's, but have to say 70% of the info on the net just does not seem to fit the dogs.  The Pyrenees are a more mellow dog, but are somewhat Aloof and independent.  (Not all, but most)
The Turkish breeds bond to people (My family refers to them as BUTT DOGS).  Thousands of years with following the shepherd in the grazing season, and living with him during the winter.  As opposed to living with the flock year around without people interaction.  A Turkish Kangal, Boz, or Anatolian will bond to you, and protect all in your domain.  

Their aggression is to the predators.  Love is to you.

In Turkey, they say that the Boz is a dog that can kill the wolves, and sleep with the lambs.  

This is our MONSTER, our Boz pup at 9 months old, would attack anything that threatened us.  He goes into town with me all the time.  A perfect gentleman.  Great with hundreds of kids at the ball fields.  He is 32.5 inches tall, and 120 already.





This is his dad





And you would never feel safer!!!

Just my opinion, but I feel much of the info on the Net paints a picture of a a hard to control independent, mean dog.  Nothing could be futher from the truth.


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## lgdnevada

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I the only one who uses a llama?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess this is another reason I do not have LG animals.  I read and read, and yet, I feel like I don't fully get it . . . Flat Lining .  In the other group I was in I was pretty much shamed for not have LG animals, and then when I talked Prys I would get PMs telling me they are not good dogs.
Click to expand...

Honestly LGD's are not for everyone, I've said this before and will always say it.  Some people are better off with other alternatives that frankly, just work better for them.  I'm sorry however those people in the other group were harsh.  I love all LGD's.  Of course some breeds I favor more than others, but still, you won't find me bashing Pyrs - they were my first LGD breed.  Like every breed they have their strengths and weaknesses and some breeds fit some people better than others.  Don't beat yourself up....use what works best for you.  Me, its dogs.  Others, maybe llamas, still others can use just fladry and vigilance, still others maybe a donkey.  We all have different situations.  We're fortunate that there are so many options!  ;~)


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## Roll farms

Elevan, I started w/ a guard llama (we actually used to have 8 llamas as 'pets' before we got into goats), he did a *fantastic* job guarding the goats / sheep / other llamas....only trouble w/ him was that he didn't care if a coon / opossum / skunk came in and treated our coop like an all night buffet.  They weren't 'predators' in his eyes, I guess.

Since birds used to be a big part of our operation, I *had* to have something that would protect them, too.

We got our first Pyr pup and...the llama was hell bent on killing him.  No amount of introduction / getting used to him helped the situation, he saw that cute lil fat pup and got blood in his eyes.  I tried everything that was suggested to me at the time by various LGD sites and llama resources available and nothing worked...so we had to rehome the llama.  I had visions of them working together...but as with a lot of pretty livestock dreams vs. reality, it wasn't meant to be.

Our LGD do a great job for us watching over everything.  I'd rather look out and see a llama out there...or maybe I should say I'd like to see them both out there.  

After that 1st pyr grew up we tried to 'rescue' an adult llama / make him a guardian.  He was scared spitless of the goats and dog and tried to jump our 5' fence to get away from them...even though he was in a seperate pen so they could 'adjust'.  He went right back on the trailer and my guardian llama dreams died.

We now have Edge (4 yr old pyr) and Gus (1.5 yr old son of Edge and an ASD we used to have) and they're wonderful guardians.  Lost Razor, our old original pyr, 1.5 yrs ago and he is still greatly missed.


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## rockdoveranch

Thanks to all who have been so kind and understanding to me with your responses to my post.


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## elevan

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Elevan, I started w/ a guard llama (we actually used to have 8 llamas as 'pets' before we got into goats), he did a *fantastic* job guarding the goats / sheep / other llamas....only trouble w/ him was that he didn't care if a coon / opossum / skunk came in and treated our coop like an all night buffet.  They weren't 'predators' in his eyes, I guess.
> 
> Since birds used to be a big part of our operation, I *had* to have something that would protect them, too.


My llama protects the chickens during the day...at night he's in the barn with the goats though (unless he's sleeping right outside the door).

The only night attack we had on our chickens was a month after we got the llama and the coop wasn't where he could have helped anyway.  Now all of our coops are in the main pasture...and I build them like they are a chicken fort knox.

The large llama breeder around the corner from me has dogs (pets) but has to train them to stay away from the llamas...even the ones who aren't guards would love to stomp them to death.

The llama who guards sheep around the corner recently flattened a coyote.

Thank goodness my boy hasn't had to kill anything *yet* but he's tried to attack the neighbors dogs through the fence a few times.  Our dogs are on his radar but he's a little more relaxed with them unless they bark at the fence.

_But I have decided that when Jerry passes or is no longer able to do his job that we'll be going with an LGD...I might have to take a trip to go visit MonsterMalak...his Boz are incredible._


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## rockdoveranch

MonsterMalak,

Help me out here.  I pulled out my book, _Livestock Protection Dogs_ by Dawydiak and Sims.  Does the Boz go by any other name?

The book is saying that the Turks refer to "shepherd dogs" as _coban kopegi_ and use the terms Akbash, Akkush, Kangal and Karabash to denote regional breeds.  It goes on to say that the first importers to the United States brought dogs from the Anatolian plateau of Turkey and thus called them Anatolian Shepherd Dog.

Is there a better LGD book I should buy?

Thanks.


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## ksalvagno

I had a guard llama and loved her. When I had 2 guard llamas, one would herd the alpacas back to the barn and the other one would stay with the "predator". I loved having a guard llama. But after our barns flooded twice this year, we decided to downsize to a small enough amount of animals that we can herd into our trailer and just take the trailer out to the front if we have flooding threats. So that left us with just having the Nigerian Dwarf goats. The llama would be too big and at this point we wouldn't even want a dog or anything. But so far predators aren't really a threat around here. 

I would probably get a dog if we felt we needed some type of LGD. Since this is my last year in alpacas, I don't want to have to worry about shearing or anything with the llamas.


----------



## dshappychicks

We had a golden/pyr mix, the best representation of both breeds!  THE GREATEST!! He had been trained very well. He understood hand signals, came when you called him, everything you could want in a lgd.  Was very gentle with grandkids and although we don't have any livestock except chickens. He would make his way around the perimeter of the yard every eve.  Had his great deep/low bark. Wouldn't hurt a fly, but if anyone came up the driveway, his bark and size would cause a hesitation. Always felt safe with him around!  He was the color of a golden, but was all pyr in every other respect.  So Smart! Had been a pet of friends of ours that moved here from alaska, but the youngest developed an allergy to him so they gave him to us.  We had him about 1 yr.  We thought we had trained him enough about the road, but apparently something enticed him to cross, probably a deer as they like to go to the pond there, and he got hit this past march.  We still mourn for him.  We are trying to find another mix like him. So if anyone knows where we can get a golden/pyr mix, please let us know.  We live in sw ohio. We are thinking of getting some highland cattle and want to get another.


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## lgdnevada

rockdoveranch said:
			
		

> MonsterMalak,
> 
> Help me out here.  I pulled out my book, _Livestock Protection Dogs_ by Dawydiak and Sims.  Does the Boz go by any other name?
> 
> The book is saying that the Turks refer to "shepherd dogs" as _coban kopegi_ and use the terms Akbash, Akkush, Kangal and Karabash to denote regional breeds.  It goes on to say that the first importers to the United States brought dogs from the Anatolian plateau of Turkey and thus called them Anatolian Shepherd Dog.
> 
> Is there a better LGD book I should buy?
> 
> Thanks.


Honestly the two LGD books out there are so-so, they have some good info and some really bad info in them both....on more rare breeds like Spanish Mastiff, there is a lot if misinfo in them I do know that, also the 'how to' parts....I differ strongly with some of their points....  I personally have looked to reading books from EU and Turkey for more accurate information about breeds, how to raise them, etc.    And, these two LGD books here, they do not include the Boz most likely because they never heard of it.  It is a separate Turkish breed.  *Turkish Boz Coban Kopekleri*.  It is NOT a cross bred mongrel mix of Kangal and Mastiff, as we (Monster Malak) have heard some Kangal people in this country are claiming they are.  They are grossly misinformed......  It is extremely rare outside of Turkey.  How rare - there are only five here in the US at this moment.  Two more coming in from Germany by the end of this month.  The Boz comes from the Urfa Mt. region in Turkey.  Monster Malak and I are trying to get a breed club going here and working with the top Turkish breeder of Boz to help the breed get off the ground here.  They are in looks, much like a Kangal but stockier, bigge.  Like a Kangal on steroids to give you an idea of the breed's strength and agility.  Males can reach 41" at shoulder, average is probably closer to 36-38".







The Anatolian in Turkey is what they often call their crossbred/mixed breeding dogs.  It does not get the 'status' afforded it here in the US where it is AKC recognized, and shown.  The Kangal, the Boz, the Malakli and Akbas are recognized over there as being the pure dogs...and names...augh...so many different names, some denote color.  I don't want to step into the Kangal or Anatolian controversy but suffice to say, some dogs that have been brought over here from Turkey said to be Kangals, are really Anatolians, and vice versa.  There are some who claim only 'real' Kangals come out of Sivas region; this is not true, there are just as many who say otherwise; the whole Anatolian/Kangal topic can be a can of worms....grin.....people arguing over color, black faces, white heads, etc......no socks allowed etc.  I've seen everything and can only come away shaking my head saying well, at some point they all were related!!!!!  ;~)


----------



## carolinagirl

one thing that puzzles me is if you go to Boz kennel's facebook page where it shows all the awards he was won with his dogs, they were all in the kangal class....none in this "Turkish Boz Coban Kopekleri" class.  Every attempt I made on the web to find out more info about Boz lead me to only two sources.....either boz kennels (mostly youtube videos), references to boz kennel's "fighting dogs" and posts that MonsterMalak has scattered out into every dog forum promoting this breed.  This is an interesting reference regarding the dogs of Turkey and it does not mention a Boz either.  http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-001.htm   Another reference I found credits Boz Kennel with the development of this breed.  Kind of confusing.  I'd sure love some links that tell us more about these dogs, if you have them.  I tried and had no luck.  thanks!

Edit....found another turkish link (had to translate it) that calls Boz a new race.  It almost seems like Boz kennels created this breed from the Kangal in order to get a better fighting dog and to get a dog that could be exported, since Kangals can't be anymore.  

I don't want to get into the whole Anatolian/kangal debate either.  I know that Anatolians as a breed don't exist in Turkey.  The breed as WE know it was brought from Turkey and the original foundation dogs were probably a mixed group of similar Turkish Shepherd dogs.  Once here (and in other countries) the standard was developed and breeding towards that standard begun in earnest.  I do think that most of the dogs sold in this country as unregistered Kangal, Akbash and Karabash are probably the same genetics as what we call Anatolian, with the exception being dogs that were directly imported and the bloodlines kept pure.  
Some interesting links...

http://www.anatoliandog.org/isik-006.htm

This link is in Turkish but if you have google translator on your browser you can read it.  Pretty interesting!

http://www.yorukanatolian.com/Çoban-İti-Makaleleri.php


----------



## lgdnevada

There are more Boz out there.  Many of the photos of Boz on MM's page are not from the one breeder you refer to, they are other people with Boz.  The problem is, when you search, you can't find these things because they are in Turkish, and even googling "Boz" will not always bring up what is out there.  You are referring too, to a breed that is mostly owned by shepherds who live out with sheep and don't 'do' the Internet.  If it weren't for a few guys in Turkey who have started to put stuff up on the web about Boz, there would not be anything much out there on Boz.  I had a Turkish man in Nevada call me two days ago about Kangal pups.  I mentioned Boz to him and he right away, knew exactly what I was referring to, also, the difference between Boz and Kangals.  So no, this is not just two or three people with Boz.  Its just that there are only a handful of people in Turkey who promote them and breed them.  The one breeder both MonsterMalak and I deal with has probably done more than anyone to shed light on this breed and bring it out of the woodwork so to speak, and promote it.  Yes they are fought.  One of the reasons why, they are what they are, and are so healthy and athletic.  The breeder we deal with does not fight dogs anymore.  That is not to say puppies he has sold in to people in Turkey, aren't fighting.  But he does not fight them.  As for the class you mention, it was Akin Tulubas' work that finally got the Boz a separate class, this all just happened recently.  And yes the dogs were shown with Kangals, even though it was obvious they were different than Kangals.  MM has posted on many forums about Boz because to my knowledge he's the first guy in this country who had one and is trying to educate people about this fascinating breed.  And I have mentioned them as well but not nearly as much as MM has and already I am getting flooded with requests for pups, which has really startled me, because there just isnt' that much out there on them, but when people see these dogs they are just stunned.  MM's focus is family/estate/personal protection.  I am looking at them as deterrents against large predators as my focus of my dog program is raising big LGDs to tackle big predators, and that is my interest in the breed.  

Its like the Bucovina, a breed that interests me from Romania.  I have found maybe two kennels in RO, no dogs here, although found an ad the other day advertising Great Pyr/Bucovina cross pups.  Can't get a hold of them yet to find out where they got a Bucovina from.  If you look it up its the same deal, hardly anything out there, maybe a few You Tubes by same person.  When a dog is so rare, so rustic, so unknown outside of its own country, and the language barrier is there, and Internet searches come up with few results, that's not unusual in the beginning I think.  But there are other Boz people in Turkey, and on Facebook I've friended a few.  They just have minimal Internet presence so your confusion is very understandable.


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## rockdoveranch

I am with Carolinagal.  I cannot find any information on BOZ other than what she has found.  I would appear the dog has been developed in recent years by BOZ Kennels as a fighting dog.  

One would think if the breed is 1000s of years old, there would be more information on the WWW and in LGD books.  If not LGD books, there must be literature on them somewhere.

Monster and LGDNevada, can you provide links so we can read more?  Who are the other breeders?  Are they in the States, in Turkey, in Germany? 

Monster, you mentioned importing BOZ from Germany.  I have family in Germany and I know the country has very stick dog laws.  Where is the kennel in Germany?  How did you find them and what is their URL?

At - http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/archive/index.php/t-393414.html - Monster, you refer to the BOZ as the Guregh are a sub breed of Malakli and Kangal.  You say the Kangal, BOZ Guregh and Malakli are easily stressed breeds, and become susceptible to illness.  And go on the tell Goatress (LGDNevada) your dog went much quicker to coccidiosis, following a fight to save the other pup in same import.

The facebook page for BOZ Kennels - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Boz-kennel/161718620543555?sk=wall  appears to promote the dog as a fighting dog.  Monster, is this the kennel where you bought your dogs from?  It is not a site for children because there are multiple pictures of the bitches and sires hung together after breeding.  

Monster, on - http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/topic/210106-boz-shepherd-dogs-or-kangals/ - you talk about running across pictures and videos in Turkish with them being used for hunting wild boar and bear, They sometimes compete by pulling 10,000 pound tractors, The Boz Shepherd Dog is fought frequently in Turkey, and In turkey and Bulgaria, they hunt swine with them.

We have neighbors from east Texas who hunt feral hog.  They use Catahoula Leopard dogs to track the hogs, then release Pitt Bulls to take the hogs down.  While the Pitt has a lock on the hogs, they stab them to death.  They recently put a bullet in the head of one of their best Pitt Bulls because he growled at one of their kids, a child the dog grew up with.  There dogs are tracking and hunting dogs.  They are not meant to be pets. 

I totally understand both of you wanting to promote and sell your dogs, but, to me, at least, I see a big difference in dogs bred over 1000s of years to protect livestock and dogs being bred to fight, hunt and kill.  

Please.  Please.  Give us URLs to support what you are saying here on this forum.  It sounds to me that the BOZ is what we here in the States call Designer dogs.  There is nothing wrong with Designer dogs, but to guard livestock, I feel there needs to be more information and university and USDA studies.

Monster, did you get my email asking about visiting you?

Thanks.


----------



## carolinagirl

yep, that's what is confusing me as well.   I found a lot of Turkish sites that I had to translate thanks to Google Translator, but none mentioned Boz except for the two sources saying that they were developed by Boz Kennels.  Maybe he took some unnamed primitave breed and named it, I just don't know.  but it does appear that he designed this larger more powerful version of the Kangal just to have a monster sized fighting dog.  I'd sure love to learn more about the breed though, and would love to research this on the web so any links you have would be appreciated.


----------



## greymane

My neighbors (who have quite the "little" farm) use a combination of animals.  They had two llamas which live with the goats and sheep.  They have a turkey with the chickens.  They have a couple of donkeys (which are housed separately, but seem to keep many evils away by noise alone).  They also have a variety of dogs.  I am not sure the breed, but JJ (their largest) is a great protector.


----------



## rockdoveranch

Ya'll are making me want to go out and buy some donkeys, llamas and dogs!  

I once looked into getting some miniature donkeys to use as LG, but was told they themselves need guardians.


----------



## MonsterMalak

Seems as if here we go again!   Strong opinions from someone that is yet to obtain their first LGD.    I have run LGD's for 24 years, with Turkish breeds for 7.5 years.  I have communicated with dozens of Turks, as well as Turkish LGD breeders in 6 plus countries.  So I have some basis for my statements and claims.

TRUE, the information on the internet and publications is sparse.  Many things contribute to this.  The average Turk does not speak, much less write English.  Nor are they trying to communicate to the American public.  The average turks opinion of American LGD people is of arrogance and willful ignorance.  "Americans want to describe our breeds with little interest in our input".  Turkih friend Zafer.

If you are saying that there is little to No information on the Net about them,,,    How do you come to the conclusion that they are a CROSS???  What breeds do you suspect went into them?  And if all the breeds in Turkey are used as LGD's, why would crossing (although they are NOT)  vacate their ability to function as a LGD, any more than the Anatolian?

In the Northern Urfa Mountains, from where this LANDRACE Working breed originated, they are refered to as the GUREGH.  The Name Boz is what the outsiders refer to them as,,, as it translates to (creamy white color).  In web searches, you can look for Guregh, Kurdish Guregh, Kurdish Kangal, or Boz.   In the Southern Urfa Mountains, the dogs are different, and refered to as the Yoruk.  Yoruk are also a Landrace breed not recognized in the publications.  Just because they do not exist in the USA does not void them from existence.  With the many landrace regional variations in Turkey, it is likely that many more breeds will be seperated out of the Mix.  If they do not go extinct prior to being saved, as the Guregh have been.

 Until last year, at the Turkish Kangal shows, all the dogs were shown as Kangal.  Kangal, Malakli, Boz, Akbash, Karabash, were all shown together.  Does not mean they are all the same.  They are only recently seperating them out, and the Boz Coban Kopegi is now a recognized breed.    Just Fyi, there are other breeds of Coban Kopegi in turkey,,,, Kangal, Malakli, Akbash, Kars, Yoruk, Akyaka, Guregh, Karabash (Panter bloodline).  Then there are several names for each kind.  All of this lends itself to much confusion.  

True they are used as fighting dogs,,,, but also as livestock guardians, family protection, police and security work, etc... All breeds in Turkey are used as fighting dogs.  As all LGD breeds in Asia Minor.  It is how they developed such effective LGD's.  Was used as a tool by the people.  

The Guregh is likely an ancient blend of Malakli and Kangal.  They have been developed in the region for thousands of years.  How they have changed,,,, who knows.
When and what blood was added,,,, who knows.   But the fact that they remain the ONLY LGD in the whole region should speak for their abilities.  I added 60+ pictures on my site of guregh in the mountains.  You can see that they are the same dog,,,  with a little more variance.  

To say that because Akin calls them his New Race, implies that he crossbred to get them if a big leap.  He is refering to the fact that He goes to the region of the Urfa Mountains, and finds working dogs that fit his IDEA of what he wants to reproduce.  So yes, they are his bloodline.... But of a Landrace Working Breed.

They, as Kangals, Akbash, Kars, Yoruk are used to occasionally hunt.  But because of their LOW PREY DRIVE, are used as Catch dogs.  Otherwise, they do not chase and HUNT the prey.  They are released when the prey is held up by the trackers,,,, at which time they feel as if they are protecting the owners from the Boars.  So NO, they are not an aggressive breed with the propensity to attack children.

The pups I am getting from germany are coming from an individual with one pair of dogs, not a kennel.  

Promote the breed on the forum,,,, yes.  I am in LOVE with them!  But have I ever mentioned SELL in any of my post on the Boz?  

I truely wish to avoid any conflict, and only wanted to share my love for this breed.  But then again, it is only a wish.


----------



## rockdoveranch

Monster, 

I was only mirroring your words you posted on other websites, one of which is a hunting website, and commenting on the only breeder I can find.  All I am asking is that you answer my questions, and now a few more that I have.  

I am not saying I do not believe you, I just need more information than from you and your friend lgdnevada.  I cannot imagine anyone considering purchasing any dog without thoroughly investigating all aspects of the dog.  

Google can translate foreign websites.  I am a Native Texan, 5 generations back, and I had family in Japan, and now Europe.  I visit foreign websites all the time.  Lots of people do. 

Please provide us with the URLs that support what you are sharing with us.  I want to know more than what you and lgdnevada are telling us.

Who is the person who sells you your dogs?  How did your find him/her?

If the Turks are so reclusive, how did you find the breed you call BOZ?  Are you Turkish?  Have you visited Turkey to study their livestock guardian dogs? 

If you can find a person in Turkey selling what you call BOZ, we should be able to also.  What was you connection?  If you can do it, we should be able to also.

Are the puppies you are selling born on your place, or are you having pups shipped to you from Turkey and/or Germany?

I have had Boxers for 60 years.  I saw that you have one.  Who is your breeder?


----------



## MonsterMalak

The Boxer is a Mixbreed of Boxer and American Bulldog.  

The friends I met from Turkey do not have URLs.  I email them, and Call them when able.  I wouldnt imagine they would want me to publicize their names, due to the complicated nature of getting puppies out of Turkey.  Nor would I imagine they would want to work with someone with such a sceptical nature.  Sorry, just saying it like it is.

And I met them through another Kangal friend in Germany.  I am not Turkish.

My Kangal pups I sold this spring were born on my place.  I have not had any other puppies for sale.  

With the cost incured with importing Boz puppies, and rarity of the breed, I could not imagine selling them.


----------



## carolinagirl

you are getting terribly defensive when all I asked was some questions.  I just want a few links so I can learn more about this breed and instead you start ranting again.  What's wrong with me asking for more information?  If the breed really is shown in Turkey and is a recognized breed, then there should be information on the web. right?  I just asked for a couple of links.  I came to the conclusion that they MAY be a cross because I found a couple of references that said that Boz Kennels invented the breed, that it's a new breed.  If it is a new breed, it had to be created from somewhere, right?


----------



## carolinagirl

MonsterMalak said:
			
		

> The Boxer is a Mixbreed of Boxer and American Bulldog.
> 
> The friends I met from Turkey do not have URLs.  I email them, and Call them when able.  I wouldnt imagine they would want me to publicize their names, due to the complicated nature of getting puppies out of Turkey.  Nor would I imagine they would want to work with someone with such a sceptical nature.  Sorry, just saying it like it is.
> 
> And I met them through another Kangal friend in Germany.  I am not Turkish.
> 
> My Kangal pups I sold this spring were born on my place.  I have not had any other puppies for sale.
> 
> With the cost incured with importing Boz puppies, and rarity of the breed, I could not imagine selling them.


Just saying...if the breed is recognized, there should be referenced on the web you can point us to.  Not asking for much, really!  just a few links?


----------



## MonsterMalak

I will see what I can find from the Turkish authorities over the shows.

To say I am ranting, I am just defending the breed I love, and have embraced.  

To question their breeding, purpose, functionability, saftey and history is slightly more than asking questions.  

To say that you have based a conclusion on a post (of someones opinion),,, and now you are posting information without basis for the future person without knowledge to jump to their own unfounded conclusion.  Do you see the irony with the spread of mis-information.

Not wanting conflict myself, have a good day!


----------



## carolinagirl

MonsterMalak said:
			
		

> I will see what I can find from the Turkish authorities over the shows.
> 
> To say I am ranting, I am just defending the breed I love, and have embraced.
> 
> To question their breeding, purpose, functionability, saftey and history is slightly more than asking questions.
> 
> Not wanting conflict myself, have a good day!


but surely you have to understand that when I search the web and the only references I can find on this breed are from you, your breeder, and a few other sources that say your breeder invented this breed, the questions have to be asked?  And when I do ask, I basically told I don't know a thing about LGDs (your quote "Strong opinions from someone that is yet to obtain their first LGD").  Just because I do not yet have my pup does not mean I can't research the breeds.  I  know quite a bit more about these breeds than you might think.  I question this breed because I know nothing about it.  That why I questioned.  And instead of answering my questions and providing links, you get terribly defensive and yes, ranting.


----------



## MonsterMalak

Again,

  There is a difference in asking questions and throwing out negative opinions.  

When you disregard our explanations with more doubts, it seems pointless to try to appease you.  

If I were applying for authentication through an organization you were the head of, I might could understand your level of sceptacism.  But sadly, I find myself answering questions of doubt from someone that has no true interest in the breed.  

Can you not understand they are a breed that only recently was brought out of a remote region, and is being introduced to the world.  Sorry there is not information on the internet from a country that does not speak english.  The Boz have won many shows, tractor pulls, competitions.  But untill last year, were called Kangal due to the lack of seperation of the breeds.  So does this mean they are Kangals... If it will satisfy you, call them what you may.


----------



## carolinagirl

but if some agency in Turkey has recently recognized them as a separate breed, that information should be on the web.  I understand that remote Turkish shepherds don't have the web.  But the showing agencies do, don't they?  I am not trying to be confrontational, but you are asking us to accept your word.  I don't k now you, yet you say that since I don't believe you, there is no appeasing me.  That's pretty unfair, don't you think?  So far I have seen NO proof of anything.  And I have seen two separate sources that state Boz Kennels invented the breed.  And no links from anyone to show any different.  So you must understand my skepticism.


----------



## lgdnevada

carolinagirl, 

You have yet to get your first LGD by your own admission.  You have absolutely no background in LGD's or Turkish dogs unlike Brian and myself.  Yet you, not even an LGD owner yet, are going through an inordinate amount of work to try to discredit us both over a very primitive rare breed simply because your Turkish is non-extant and Google is notorious for botching up translations and you are convinced the Boz is a 'designer dog'.  It is futile to change your mind about that and I've got more important things to do than convince you otherwise.  You want to think that, go ahead.  It will not change the truth of the breed.

Neither Brian or I owe anyone - particularly someone with NO LGD background - any explanation or 'proof' for what we know is a real breed that is cherished by Turks and used successfully for livestock protection, is NOT solely used for fighting, HAS existed for eons, and is NOT some made-up 'dream dog' of one man's making as you are in your ignorance, trying to make it out to be.  Brian has given you answers yet you still pound away at him as if you haven't comprehended those answers or you don't want to hear them; its like you just want to plow ahead and spat over this.   How you became a Turkish LGD expert overnight before you even got an Anatolian puppy from Missouri, frankly is fodder enough for another thread on its own....please, no one is forcing you to get or like a Boz.  There was also inference that we are here to market our pups.  No.  It will take Brian and I three years to fill the orders we have for Boz pups right now.  We are not here to sell them, we don't NEED to.  I enjoy sharing my experiences and expertise with others who want to learn.  I enjoy this forum for other topics as well as the LGD's.  Please let's not take this any further and drop it if it can't be discussed in a more civil manner than has been done.  Neither Brian or I have the time to do your dirty work for you.  That you can't find the info does not mean it is not out there, it is, you will find it difficult to find due to the language barrier and poor translation on the web.  I did my own research and don't have the time to do it for someone who'll never own a Boz to begin with.  I hope you understand.  Sincerely,  Brenda


----------



## carolinagirl

I was not trying to discredit anything.  I was interested in finding out more about this breed and ran into road blocks every step of the way.  So as I would with anything I can't find the answer to, I ask the people who do know about them for links that I may check out.  And that's when Brian got all defensive like I am trying to prove something.  all I said was what I found on the web....and what I didn't find.  don't you think that other people might be interested in them?  It;s just kind of funny on pet forums where people ask what kind of dog they should get, I see Brian's post....oh get a Boz shepherd!! I mean isn't that a little silly to tell someone who is randomly looking for a pet to get a breed that they can't get even if they wanted to, and can't research because nothing about the breed exists?  so never mind.  If y'all want to keep the secret information about this breed to yourselves a secret, fine by me.

And I don't really see what currently having or not having a LGD has to do with my curiosity about this breed.  I never claimed to be an expert on turkish breeds....that's why I was hoping someone could give me some links.  Guess not.


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## MonsterMalak

Sadly, there seems to always be someone with an appetite for conflict on the forums.  Truely do not know why people have to be that way.  
Simple questions can be answered, but to have to answer the same questions over and over, as to have to prove something seems pointless.  To have to defend ones self against baseless acusations is unnecessary.When you explain why something is difficult to obtain, it is not a good enough answer.  As if I owe this person proof of something that has no effect on her.  

The question to show proof, as if I owe it to someone, can not be easly done since I do not read or speak Turkish.  
To say that we are keeping the SECRET is again just a reflection of how you have failed to listen to out best explanations.  It may exist, but by not speaking Turkish, will be hard to find.  OK.

But I put some inquires out to my Turkish friends to find INTERNET verification, so I can show some proof to someone that can't take a persons word.  

Sadly, the Turkish friends of mine have shown a level of trust, not extended by some on this forum.  They are sending puppies to me prior to my being able to pay for them. 

Because they want me to have some of this breeding.  Telling me, just pay us the $4,000 when you can.  "Your word is good my friend".  

I just find it ironic that for someone without LGD experience, preparing to buy a cross bred dog, would hammer someone to show proff that their breed is not crossbred.  

Enjoy your dog when you get it, and I hope he works out great for you.  

Have a Good Day!


----------



## rockdoveranch

I have read and reread lgdnevada and MonsterMalak posts on this thread and on other forums, and frankly, I am not really sure what exactly they are saying.  Is it a Boz Guregh or Boz Coban Kopegi?  Or is the dog actually a Kangal? So far I have read where Monster has implied that the Boz is a mixture of 3, then 2 breeds.  I know that foreign languages translated into English are often misinterpreted, even by the best interpreter. 

I am confused as to what breeds MonsterMalak and lgdnevada have.  If I remember correctly after reading on another forum, Igdnevada's Boz died in transport, and it seems that Monster has maybe two dogs he refers to as Boz, one adult male and one male pup.  Igdnevada's has posted that it would take years to fill their orders for Boz puppies, and yet Monster appears to be saying that he is not breeding.  I have read that they are wanting to start a Boz association here in the United States, so it makes no sense to me that they are not forthcoming in their responses to interested parties.

As a Boxer dog person of 60 years, when someone posts on a forum that he has a Boxer, and then when questioned as to who his breeder is, his answer is that his Boxer is a "Mixbreed of Boxer and American Bulldog" his credibility goes down.    

One can only respect others who inquire and do their research, especially on dogs that are used for specific reasons.  Asking for credentials should not be deemed as distrust.  It is a show of respect on both sides of the table. 

As for me, I have sent several emails off today to sources I consider to be reliable regarding the Boz dog.

I encourage Carolinagirl to continue to do her research and ask questions as this is the best way to make an informed conclusion and decision.  This is how I live my life and I encourage everyone to do the same.

I encourage Monster to continue to search for information to support what he and Igdnevada are saying.

I really have nothing else to say on the Boz until I get my email responses.


----------



## elevan

MonsterMalak said:
			
		

> Again,
> 
> There is a difference in asking questions and throwing out negative opinions.
> 
> When you disregard our explanations with more doubts, it seems pointless to try to appease you.
> 
> If I were applying for authentication through an organization you were the head of, I might could understand your level of sceptacism.  But sadly, I find myself answering questions of doubt from someone that has no true interest in the breed.
> 
> Can you not understand they are a breed that only recently was brought out of a remote region, and is being introduced to the world.  Sorry there is not information on the internet from a country that does not speak english.  The Boz have won many shows, tractor pulls, competitions.  But untill last year, were called Kangal due to the lack of seperation of the breeds.  So does this mean they are Kangals... If it will satisfy you, call them what you may.


While this post wasn't directed at me...I feel inclined to comment on it as I feel that I've something relevant to say here.

I'm inclined to believe in the Boz breed.  And I'm certainly interested in it.

Here's why and what I've found.



> The Kangal dog was not know to most of the western world until 1983 when it was written about by David and Judy Nelson.  And as far as I can tell no one here is disputing the validity of the Kangal.  And it has been known to us less than 20 years (in the western world).
> 
> There are many oban kopegi or shepherd's dogs, in Turkey.
> 
> The other native breeds are members of the oban kopegi (cho-ban ko-pay-hee) group. These dogs have been used generations in their native Turkey primarily for protecting sheep against predators, such as bear in ancient times and now wolves. In Turkey, the shepherd's dogs accompany the shepherd and the flock to the high summer pastures, or yaylas, and live there until after the harvest is finished in the lower valleys. The flock then moves back to the village fields until the onset of winter. During winter, sheep, dogs and any other livestock, such as the family's cattle or goats, are housed in the village in low barns. Throughout most of Turkey the oban kopegi are simply village dogs. They are not bred on a pure or pedigreed basis. However, there are certain regions in Turkey where the dogs have become a matter of great pride and have been bred on a purebred basis for hundreds of years. *In these areas, regional breeds are found*.


I would ascertain from this that the _Turkish Boz Coban Kopekleri_ (a western alliteration of Coban Kopegi) is a regional breed of the shepard's dogs of Turkey.  Boz appears to be a common surname in Turkey as well.

I would say open your mind to the possibility that you're not yet going to find something on the internet doing a specific search for a breed not yet well known to the western world.

I found the information that I did by searching dogs of turkey.

I own a breed of dog (Basenji) that wasn't "found" by European society until 1895 but it took until the 1930's to bring it to England and the 1940's to make it known to the U.S.  And they believe that they are one of the oldest breeds on the planet and it took that long to recognize them and even longer to bring them out of the Congo.

I have no problem believing that the Boz is a regional breed of shepard dog from the remote moutains of Turkey.

_edited: deleted my comment about starting a new thread for a Boz discussion_


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## rockdoveranch

I find the entire thread of interest.  

Although I do not have a livestock guardian animal, I know Texas shepherds who do.  We all come from different places with life-times of different experiences, so whether it be a dog, llama, donkey or turkey, or even one specific breed of an animal, what works for one person may not work for another.


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## elevan

I only suggested that the topic be discussed on a new thread as it seems to have become a "heated" debate about 1 particular type of LGD.  If I hadn't already posted to the thread I would avoid posting now as it seems to have gone from _What kind of Guardian does your herd have?_ to almost 5 pages of 7 of _What is your opinion on the Boz LGD?_

_My apologies to the OP...I'll bow out of the conversation now.  Thank you._


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## MonsterMalak

Please accept my appologies for what part i may have played in the domination on this thread.  It was never my intention to do so, I was only trying to defend against persons compelled to discredit something they know little about.  

I will start a thread for the Boz Shepherd Dog.  I would like to ask that people with strong negative opinions that do not have a true interest other than to elevate themselves to a status of Forum Bully, please find something else to focus on.

I have answered all the questions to the best of my ability, but being baddgered by people that have never owned a LGD seems ridiculous. RockDoveRanch, I am sorry, but all the questions in your last post are to (lacking Knowledge) to answer.  They show that you have embarked into a quest without even the basic knowledge of Turkish Breeds.  And even if I gave it the best of my ability, you obviously would not understand. 

Again, please accept my appology.

Brian Peckinpaugh

FYI,  The Annual Turkish Dog show (Previously the Kangal Show) in Istanbul on 09/25/2011 is now seperating out the breeds, and Boz Coban Kopegi will be one of the recognized breeds.


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## carolinagirl

I was not badgering.  I was simply trying to get answers, which you would not provide and instead got terribly defensive.  How is one to learn about a breed when no one is willing to post any links to credible information?  I really don't care anymore about this breed.  If this is how all breeders of these "boz shepherds" act, then why on earth would I even want to consider one of them?  I wasn't asking for much and neither was Maruene.  We just had a few questions based on what our own web searched produced.  If our initial questions had been answered, we would not have to go searching for information on our own, which just lead to even more questions.  Sorry if my questions offended you but how is a person supposed to learn anything if questions are asked and not answered?

I won't be posting on this debate anymore.  It's just not worth my time to argue with people who so obviously want to judge me and find me ignorant just because I ask questions and don't have my own LGD yet. My advise to anyone who is considering one of the rare breeds (not just this breed but ANY rare breed from any breeder) is to do your own homework.  If your breeder is not forthcoming with good verifiable information about his breed, you may want to look elsewhere.  Just my opinion.


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## MonsterMalak

*Carolina Girl,*
If you take the time to *ACTUALLY* go back and read all of our responses to your Questions.... *They were answered! * Lack of comprehension on your part should not be considered a refusal on my part.

This persistant request for CREDIBLE VERIFICATION may be unquenchable at this point.  Like we over and over tried to explain to you, the information you are asking for either does not exist, or we are unaware of.  Mostly due to the Turkish language barrior.  So unless I can pull it out of thin air, or somewhere else, your persistance can only be taken as either a lack of ability to comprehend or refusal to do so.

BUT this in no way should discredit the existance of the breed.  *Research the efforts that have gone into the introduction of other Ancient or regional breeds*.  
In that is where you will find your answer.  But only if you can expand your knowledge base, and open up your mind beyond your small existance.

In Sept after the Istanbul Dog Show, I will post the information for you and others like you.  

Although I feel that nothing will be enough to satisfy you, as you have a basic lack of understanding in regards to the complexities in such a matter.  

GoodBye!


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## rockdoveranch

I love talking livestock guardian animals even though I do not have any.  We solved the only problem we have had in all these years (knock on wood) with a certified letter to the offending dog's owner even though the sheriff told us to shoot their dog.  I certainly did not want to kill a dog that belonged to a family with 5 kiddos, and I did not want to get a livestock protection animal that might kill their dog either.  Had the problem not been solved with the letter, I guess I would have had to make some difficult decisions.  I probably would have gone with a donkey in just that one pasture.  I think (knock on wood, again) that our 4 dogs with their deep loud barks keep the 2 and 4 legged predators down.  Out in our neck of the woods nobody ever gets out of their vehicles on other peoples properties without honking first and waiting for ranch owner to come out.  Dogs are a big deterrent, even dogs behind fences.      

I have done a lot of research on the web and through books on the subject of all the livestock guardian animals.  The USDA even provides information.  There are good and bad stories about dogs, donkeys and llamas.  I love hearing the good stories, but am even more impressed with those who share their bad experiences, because these are the experiences we need to know about in order to make informed decisions if we are looking to buy anything.  I encourage everyone to do the same especially when we are talking about a dog that is a LGD, hunting dog and fighting dog.


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## MonsterMalak

Rockdoveranch,  I would advise that you take some time off from posting, and read back through some of your silly questions, and the informative answers that were provided.  It is as if you were not even bothering to read the numerous attempts to explain something at a level that a rank novice could understand.  

The Boz Shepherd is a dog from the URFA Mountains where it is called the GUREGH.  People not from the mountains call the dog a Boz due to the translation of CREAMY WHITE, which is the predominate color. 
*Boz Coban Kopegi *is TURKISH for Boz Shepherd Dog.
SO to answer your mis informed conclusion once again, these are the same dog, just the different names for them.  It may excape you, but the WHOLE WORLD does not speak ENGLISH, and some things are called by different names in different places.
Do you UNDERSTAND!!!

I am sorry, but I do not know how to explain it in any more of a simple way.  You ask the same questions over and over.  Either showing your lack of understanding, or refusal to do so.  

Please avoid passing judgement on subjects with which you obviously lack knowledge.













Boz dogs at the Turkish Kennel Club Show                                                          Boz (Guregh) in the Urfa mountains with sheep.                                             Boz at A DOG show in Turkey.


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## freemotion

The questions were valid and unanswered.  No need to be so short.


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## lgdnevada

Nice post MM and great photos of some beautiful dogs.  It will be interesting, the first ones we get out there to ranchers to test against wolf packs in defending stock.  I think this breed could turn a lot of things around.
For the better.  Run by themselves or in conjunction with more traditional breeds they can only improve the odds I think.  We have a lot of exciting work ahead of us, which reminds me, I need to be doing that instead of spending time here.
That big presentation on LGD's I am doing in 3 cities up north is going to be upon me before I know it and my time is better spent constructively working on that.  The sponsors are really excited to get the word out about these other breeds,
and so am I.....grin......  And in two weeks you have two more Boz pups coming in from Germany, whoopee....we both have lots to do and prepare for.  Tally ho chap....I'm outah here for now till tempers cool and sanity returns...if ever.


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## DuckLady

Due to reports, we are closing this thread.
Thanks to those who were able to participate in a civil manner.


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