# Anyone Interested? UPDATE - LGD 1st Kidding



## Southern by choice (Dec 27, 2015)

Anyone interested in seeing and understanding introductions of young LGD's going through their first kidding or lambing?
This would include lots of pictures to explain and show proper posturing, some things young dogs do, how this relates etc.

Many do not know what the dog should be doing, whether it is behaving properly , what to correct, certain behaviors, body language, and sometimes something can appear one way yet it is not what the human thinks is going on.

This is a great deal of work to put something like this together and I am not even sure how to put up all the photo series.
The series shows far more than a single snapshot.

We are asked this often as well as we see many that simply do not know if they can trust their dog.

All the dogs are anywhere from 7months- 1year old. These are all YOUNG LGD dogs during their first kiddings. 

If enough interest I will compile the info.


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## GLENMAR (Dec 27, 2015)

YES. I separate out my does during kidding because I'm not sure about the dogs. Last year a doe kidded earlier than I was expecting. I was not home at the time. When I got home, I found a kid in the loafing stall. The twin was dead and one of my dogs was carrying it. If something happened there, I think it was an accident. I can't see them being aggressive to a newborn... but then i was not there.


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## goatgurl (Dec 27, 2015)

absolutely, it would be a great help.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 27, 2015)

I would love to have that kind of info!


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## Baymule (Dec 27, 2015)

A GREAT BIG *YES!!!!!!!*


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## Scooby308 (Dec 27, 2015)

Anything I can learn is a great bonus.


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## Latestarter (Dec 27, 2015)

Now Southern... really?!?! You have to ASK?!?! How could anyone say no to such a generous offer? You'll have to ad me to the list of YES-es...


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## Mini Horses (Dec 27, 2015)

Absolutely!!!!!     

You know, it may help with some of the LGD rescues -- either by adoption from a farm who would learn what to do/expect  OR keep them out of rescue by an owner who learns what to do instead of giving up.  

This would be a true service to dogs & people.


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## secuono (Dec 27, 2015)

Is this spurred on by the stuff going on in the LGD Facebook group?
Why not just do like they are and post videos as well?


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## Southern by choice (Dec 27, 2015)

secuono said:


> Is this spurred on by the stuff going on in the LGD Facebook group?
> Why not just do like they are and post videos as well?



I do not do any LGD forums. groups, FBgroup, or any other LGD site. 
*Loathe them. *
Too many people that give novice advice and promote all kinds of counter-productive methods. 

You'd be surprised at how many of these people have dogs that have chewed, killed, & chased livestock (to the point of danger)... using shock, drags, bars, and various contraptions on their dogs.

Theses same people BREED their dogs.  They don't TRAIN their dogs, they do not know how to read their dogs, they do not build trust with their dogs. 

90% of dogs that fail do so because of their owner- that is suppose to be a shepherd- that is suppose to be a partner. 

Then you have a few that may give some decent advice but they are so cruel to others that have made mistakes it is sickening. 

Repulsive. 

Ok.... RANT OVER... 

@GLENMAR - do you know of any Kuvasz breeders?


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## Ferguson K (Dec 27, 2015)

Yes yes yes!!!

I'd love to see.


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## babsbag (Dec 27, 2015)

I think it would be a terrific resource. While my dogs are older and trustworthy I may be getting a puppy just in time for kids and the success with my current dogs may be a lot of luck.   They do go crazy for the afterbirth...I wish I had thought to stop that as pups.


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## samssimonsays (Dec 28, 2015)

I would love to see this.


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## Scooby308 (Dec 28, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I do not do any LGD forums. groups, FBgroup, or any other LGD site.
> *Loathe them. *
> Too many people that give novice advice and promote all kinds of counter-productive methods.
> 
> ...



See this a lot with Dobermans. Sadly, people read it on the net and believe it.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 28, 2015)

I had thought of trying to video... problem is having someone to do it.

Normally we are there for kidding, we pull the kids so we are busy. It seems when I have someone trying to take pics or video they get distracted and instead of focusing on what needs to be the subject we get a lot of close ups of the new kid's face or something else that was "but it was so cute"...  so the important thing gets missed. 
We also generally have 4-5 people all talking at once. That is noo help.

May try to video with the upcoming group of does due.
I cannot have 5 dogs in at once... I think I will try to focus on a particular team. 4 does due within 3 days of each other so it should give all the 1 year olds opportunity. Of course Chunk (20 months) will be there... he is awesome. 

It should be a good example of the more stubborn hard-headed dogs the Toli-Pyr pups are and how to work with them. Chunk and the pyrs all I ever had to say was Back up, or leave that alone... but most dogs are not quite as responsive.


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## HomesteaderWife (Dec 28, 2015)

I would really love to see information on this, because as we grow in the coming years, I would love to get goats and have a LGD with them, so this would interest me. I want to learn as much as possible before we come to the point of raising our own.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 28, 2015)

I would LOVE to see this Southern, if you are up to compiling the info!


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## GLENMAR (Dec 28, 2015)

Southern. - Kuvasz no. There's not many of those around. I'd refer to the AKC web site for breeders.


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## HoneyDreameMomma (Dec 30, 2015)

I know I'm a little late jumping in, but I vote yes.  We tried to be careful, but sometimes I think we were pure dumb lucky that Clyde was so naturally good with the baby goats (he's an absolute gem at kidding time).  I know we can't take much credit for Miller - he came to us trained and absolutely amazing.  

We want to be sure our newest LGD, Avery, does well with the babies too, so any techniques, signs of possible problems, etc that you could share would be fantastic. Avery is almost 9 months old and is strongly bonded to the goats already.  They follow her everywhere, and although they always respond when either of the boys 'sound the alarm,' Avery is almost always the first one they run to.  That said, I know that doesn't guarantee how she'll be with the babies.  She is still a puppy and I worry she might get excited and not be as gentle as she should be.  Lol - although I'm fairly certain if she tries anything with Clyde around, he'll put her in her place even faster than we can.  He's very protective of 'his' babies. 

But I babble... in a nutshell, yes - I'd love it if you shared that info!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 30, 2015)

Have started compiling info but I thought it may be helpful to have an understanding of knowing whether your LGD is even ready to be present at a kidding.

**If a dog does not meet certain criteria then NO attempt should be made to have the dog present. *

When finished I will post the link to articles.


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## Southern by choice (Jan 18, 2016)

OK! So first kidding of the year... 

@Goat Whisperer 's doe had quints- My buck is the sire.... 

"Blue" and Chunk were in for kidding... it was crazy hectic. all 5 in 35 minutes.

Blue did awesome as expected... more details tomorrow- busy and tired!

Did get video but they still need edited.
Here is a still shot...


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## Scooby308 (Jan 18, 2016)

Awesome! Hope you don't catch the Northerly breeze we are getting now. Below zero...I hate winter


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## Latestarter (Jan 18, 2016)

Congrats @Goat Whisperer ! Quints Very excited to see the video when it's ready!


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## goats&moregoats (Jan 19, 2016)

Just saw this and I want to add my YES in there.  What a wonderful idea and Southern you have so much great information to share with everyone. Looking forward to this development.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Jan 19, 2016)

Aww! Congratulations @Goat Whisperer & @Southern by choice on the babies!!


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## Baymule (Jan 19, 2016)

Quints! WOW!! Five times as much fun. Hope the babies all do well. Good dog!!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 31, 2016)

Will update later- moved kids out today to pen... so very busy but just had to stop in and say....

I absolutely cannot imagine my farm without my Livestock Guardians! 
The MOST VALUABLE ASSETS on our farm without a doubt!
Snapped a few pics...
First group is a series of shots- my fav is the 5th one down 
This dog is Not Leo- this group will be his "charges" he will live full time with them- he will get out of the pen area for exercise too.


 

 

 

 

 

 
This is Not Leo with "Wren" a mini-mancha
Not Leo is a lot like Chunk (his cousin) sooooo patient! 


 
"Blue" came in for awhile "just because"   Gentle Giants!


 

Oh yeah... I like my goats too


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## Devonviolet (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm a late comer too! Just found this. You are such an awesome teacher, Southern! I would absolutely love to have you do articles on training LGDs to be good during kidding.  

Our two are 15 months now, and really responsive to their name, when they are doing something they shouldn't be doing. So, I'm thinking with your articles, we should do well with them and kidding.

This Summer we will be getting at least 2 does, and possibly a buck, with plans to kid maybe in January next year, if they don't already have kids. 

LOVE the pics of Not Leo and the new kids! What a sweetie. I also love number 5!


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## Devonviolet (Jan 31, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> OK! So first kidding of the year...
> 
> @Goat Whisperer 's doe had quints- My buck is the sire....


WOW!  Congrats to both you, Southern and @Goat Whisperer!  Quints! Amazing! I'm kind of hoping my first kidding isn't quints!


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## Southern by choice (Jan 31, 2016)

Another round... 

This time with "Blue".... He so wanted in with the kids I just had to let him in. He was in the last pic above.... remember he was with the kids when they were being born, so I think he just wanted to see them. 

It is funny I didn't get a picture of it but at one point his tail was going up and down and one of the Lamanchas was looking at it moving and she froze and then ran away 

So.... the pics above as well as this set... this is what I want to see. Calm, allowing goats to explore and climb.... I want to see them watch baby goats leap run jump and just watch.... not interfere not get in their space and of course not stop the fun.
The dogs are cleaning butts but the kids are not real keen on it. LOL
I am trying to do video where I can but sometimes it doesn't work out so I do try to snap pics so you get the whole picture.

Last pic is Not Leo- I love how he looks down at all his lil' charges. He is very slow and gentle when getting down. Blue is a little more "oafy". 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any questions?


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## Devonviolet (Jan 31, 2016)

Awwww! How sweet!!!   

Look at the white fur rugs, in the background, in the last photo!  Looks like our white fur rugs!


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## goatgurl (Jan 31, 2016)

only question i can think of is...  can not leo come live with me.  i just love that dog. 
ok another question, how do you handle the placenta and the dogs wanting it?  last year was the first time Katie was allowed to be present at the births and after the placenta was passed i would toss it over to her but am kind of rethinking that.  she started showing to much interest in the goats butts before the afterbirth was passed.  thoughts?


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## Ferguson K (Jan 31, 2016)

Look at all those babies:


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## Southern by choice (Jan 31, 2016)

Devonviolet said:


> Look at the white fur rugs, in the background,


LOL I was going to mention- those boys are doing amazing--- you can't see it  in the pic but just to the left of them is the "kennel" where Callie is because she is in full blown heat 
Yes I am crying because we have had perpetual heat with one dog after another... so tired of heat cycles right now. Callie gets psycho i heat... it is a wonder she ever got bred 



goatgurl said:


> can not leo come live with me. i just love that dog.


He really is special... it is very hard to put into words- I would say he is a one in a million but yet Chunk and D are very much like him... so calm a truly delightful dog. You would adore him. Everyone who meets him loves him... Except @babsbag  she likes naughty Silver. 


goatgurl said:


> how do you handle the placenta and the dogs wanting it?





goatgurl said:


> she started showing to much interest in the goats butts before the afterbirth was passed. thoughts?



I think this is one that each owner needs to look at closely... if a dog is on open land with livestock that lambs/kids with little to no human interaction during the process then allowing them to clean up the land so predators aren't attracted is probably more desirable.

BUT 

I do believe in first training  the dog with the first kiddings (regardless of age- be it 5 months, 7 months, 1 yr 2 yrs whatever) to NOT even think about licking back there. I also think teaching them to leave it (afterbirth) is best. 

BUT 

If the dog does well , leaves it and then the doe leaves it and doesn't touch it ( field kidding/lambing) THEN they can have it.

What we do:
First timers will sniff rear when goop is there or amber ( prior to birthing) we tell them uh uh, leave it alone. Depending on the dog of course - some will look at us and move back with the simple words we speak ... others that are more hard headed will sniff, ignore us like we said nothing even though they heard ( think Blue for this one ) and I just simply tug at his collar and say uh uh. I said No- leave it... that was enough for him. So far he is the ONLY dog that I had to tug at.  Yet he would not lick the newborn kid til we told him too. 

They are taught NOT to touch that afterbirth- they are allowed to lick the fluids off the ground but no touchy on the rear at anytime - no placenta. 
First we stall ours for kidding. I like to be there and see everything I want to know afterbirth passed. Two, the bacteria and other junk in the afterbirth is really bad for dogs to eat. Three, I don't want them getting a "taste" for it because the does are going to "weep" for several weeks after kidding...  so if they learn up front NO TOUCHY! then I feel better about it when in their future a doe kids out in  the field unexpectedly or on purpose ( Kiko's).

-----

I just thought of something that hadn't occurred to me before... you know our field dogs cannot be bribed so I am wondering if this is why they really don't go after the placenta... kind of like that thing is foreign don't eat it ... anyway just a thought. Now I could be way off on that too.

-----

I do think this is very important though as there are quite a few people that actually have to separate their dogs from their livestock during lambing/kidding because they will eat it right off the goat/ewe. IMO what is the point? You need your dogs MOST during that time, kids/lambs are at their most vulnerable... 
I think it is something overlooked and then there is that ah ha moment but too late.

Glad you asked the question... good for new LGD owners to know. You are seasoned and this dog is a different dog and you are looking at it which is also good for beginners to see... each dog is different and Katie is her own dog. Evaluating or changing something is great  ( you already know that though).

That is why I like the interaction- thanks for your post @goatgurl .


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## Ferguson K (Jan 31, 2016)

Do you ever have a problem with the dogs getting over excited when the girls start "alerting" and "screaming" like new moms can do? Does that aren't sure exactly what is happening? 

Example, surprise birth in field with new mom... She's screaming because she doesn't know what's going on... Excited dogs could lead to complications, yes?


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## Southern by choice (Jan 31, 2016)

A good sound dog will not get over excited. A sound dog will sound the alarm if there is a problem. This is where you always want to evaluate the dog before kidding and be there during it's first experience if possible. 

A dog that gets excitable when goats do dumb stuff is not ready or trustworthy. Dogs that micro-manage, dogs that chase, dogs that cannot read their goats, dogs that do not have good relationship with their charges will be a detriment not an asset during kidding/lambing.

Last year we had a Kiko kid in the field with Chunk out there, he was 9 months I think... on his own when we found out she had twins on the ground already up one nursing one being cleaned. We knew she could go anytime but did not have exact dates like we do with the dairy goats... anyway ... we were not concerned because Chunk was already so sound there were no worries. At 5-7 months he had been around baby goats and no issues. Having said that I will give Silver as an example of why I will make sure I am with Silver and ready to correct- Silver loves baby goats, he also likes to keep them where he wants them.  Silver I suspect will invade space in all likelihood. That is a no no- he MUST respect the doe and move back and let her do her thing.

We will see... Next round Silver will be there.


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## babsbag (Jan 31, 2016)

"My" Silver will do just fine


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## goatgurl (Feb 1, 2016)

thanks Southern.    she doesn't bother them before or lick behinds after but last kidding season she sniffed at a couple of placentas that hadn't passed yet.  I corrected her and she left things alone but hadn't really come into her own until last fall.  she has been really slow to mature in some ways but I can see such a difference in her from last spring to this.  I won't have kids for another 5 weeks so time will tell as my mom use to say.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 2, 2016)

Southern by choice said:


> OK! So first kidding of the year...
> 
> @Goat Whisperer 's doe had quints- My buck is the sire....
> 
> ...



Saw this scrolling ... awwwwwwwwwwww.... what great memories! Amazing it has been almost a whole year. Quints were so tiny! Looking through seeing the dogs too! How sweet. Just love what we do!


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## NH homesteader (Dec 2, 2016)

This was a really interesting read! I never  get around to going back to read old posts so you commenting helped me out,  lol! 

I'm showing all your gorgeous dogs  to my husband.  Don't  tell them but Chunk is my favorite (I know there's no pic of him here but every time I see one I go awww!)


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## Southern by choice (Dec 2, 2016)

Thanks @NH homesteader   Chunk sure is my boy. He was my babylove from the day he was born. Still is. Never an issue with him, just reliable, faithful, dependable and my love. Here he is as a pup 9 months I think- at MoClones kidding -I love this pic.  We didn't even know she'd dropped them...


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## NH homesteader (Dec 2, 2016)

So gorgeous!


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## Bruce (Dec 2, 2016)

Cute babies! 
You should post this picture for POW.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 2, 2016)

@Bruce  Maybe I should... worst thing is I have so many photo I just love  I think this one is pretty cute though Thanks!


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## Green Acres Farm (Dec 2, 2016)

Any LGD info you post is greatly appreciated!


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## bethh (May 13, 2019)

Couldn't sleep tonight so I've been scrolling and came upon this thread, we aren't anywhere near having kids born here. But I have a question-- Chewy loves our two kids, he cleans them, faces and bottoms, when they are taking their bottles.  Is this okay?


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## Southern by choice (May 13, 2019)

yes, perfectly fine


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