# doe kid gone limp-mother not producing much-pls HELP



## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Hi, 
I'm new here-I have a good deal of sheep experience, but none with dairy goats.  We have two does, and they recently kidded for the first time- one on Monday, and one this morning.

The one which kidded Monday, everything seemed fine....and the twin doelings seemed bright.  She never bagged up much though and her teats are very small.  By Friday, we noticed that one of the kids was very sleepy and cold. I put a sweater on her for the night, got her on her feet and observed to see that she was feeding and tail wagging.  She was, but I noticed that her suck was awful, and despite the very small size of the teats, she was not taking the entire teat into her mouth.  It was 1 am so we let them rest.

By this am, she was too weak to stand.  We had begun to put the mother on the milk stand on Wednesday, but had not yet been successful at getting any milk from her.  This morning we got a teeny amount, maybe 3 oz.  I fed half of it to the weak doe by bottle, but much of it ran out of her mouth.  

I brought the kid in the house, put her in a basket with a hot water bottle/wool blanket by the woodstove and began feeding her with a syringe, about 15 cc of milk every 15 minutes.

I used up all the milk and have since gotten about another 4 oz from the mother.  She got jumpy and stepped her foot in the cup while I was milking.  I started a new cup to finish the milking. I strained the dirt from the first bit- can I still feed this to the kid or is this milk garbage?

Is there anything else I can do for the kid?  I'd like to give her electrolyte...but my husband thinks we should only give her milk at this point.

her sister is running and jumping around the barn yard.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks.

Heather


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## redtailgal (Apr 28, 2012)

If she hasnt been getting milk, she is probably dehydrated. I'd give her some electrolytes.

Keep her warm, and if the dam is unable to produce milk, either give her milk from another doe or bottlefeed her some grocery store whole milk.  

Make sure she is warm, feeding a cold baby leads to bloat, imo.

I dont have much experience with baby goats, mine are all grown up now, but we do raise alot of calves and several folks on here give whole cows milk to their kids.

Someone with more experience should be along shortly.

Good luck!


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Okie, mixing the electrolytes.

Need an opinion on the milk that got stepped in....


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## ksalvagno (Apr 28, 2012)

Do not feed the milk that was stepped in. Mom may not have enough milk for both kids.

You still need to be careful how much milk you give her. How much does she weigh? What is her temp? A goat should not be fed if temp is below normal which is 101-103. I would wait at least an hour in between giving her milk. Usually you would only feed 3 times a day. I would get the electrolytes into her because she is probably very dehydrated. If she is so weak that she can't suck, then I would tube her. Then you could get an ounce or so into her and then wait for a while before feeding her again.

I would give her a B Complex shot.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks Karen.  Tossing the stepped in milk.

We don't have a gavage tube on hand, and I've never intubated a ruminant...just dogs and cats, and its been a very long time....

I am able to get a small syringe into the back of her throat, and she's able to swallow, but i have to go slow.  Still no suck though, no perking at all.  I'm giving such small amounts at a time which is why I've been doing it frequently-If I go more than 3 syringes, she seems to stop swallowing, so I want her to rest in between.   I did just manage to get about an ounce of electrolyte into her though.  She's only had about 3 oz of milk all day so far.

I called around to the local pharmacies to see if they have ringers solution so I could do subcutaneous injections, but nobody had it; all the vets were closed for the weekend also with just pagers for emerg...and that's not really an option for us due to cost.

Taking her temp now, going to try to weigh her.  I have been keeping her warm though.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Her temp is 104

though I'm not sure on the accuracy of the thermometer; its the only one we have though.

Is this considered a fever?  I'm removing the hot water bottle from under her and taking off the sweater.


We don't have any B complex injections, but do have B complex in tablet form intended for humans...there is a B complex in the electrolyte I'm giving her.


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## Roll farms (Apr 28, 2012)

In a pinch, soft oxygen tubing (from a pharmacy) or fishtank hose can work to tube feed the kid....just make sure it's SOFT.  Attatch it to a large syringe, insert it in the kid, then have a helper slowly pour the milk into the syringe while you hold the kid.
Is she standard sized?  I typically tube standard kids w/ 4-5 oz of milk, then let them go 6-7 hours and (hopefully) they'll perk up / get hungry enough to eat / nurse the next feeding.
A B shot is a grand idea.  2-3 cc.


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## Roll farms (Apr 28, 2012)

The high temp is probably due to the water bottle.  Just saw your post about the b vit.  Dissolve one in as little water as possible and syringe it down her throat.

You can use whole Vitamin D milk to feed her, if you're afraid mom doesn't have enough for both.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks Roll Farms.

I took the hot water bottle away.  

Her weight is 6.003 lbs, yes she's standard sized, dam is nube/saanen, sire is alpine/saanen.

I do have fish tank airline tubing, although its not that soft and I don't have a syringe that would fit on it.  I guess I'm drastically under-equipped.  I don't think I can get a tube til Monday at the earliest- we sort of live in the stix. I only stocked up on what we used at my neighbor's sheep farm when i worked there during lambing---but perhaps she has a few more losses than I'm prepared to, esp since I only have the 2 dam does.

I do have whole goats milk from the store, though its been pastuerized.  

Should I try to get a full feed of the milk into her, or should I keep going with just electrolytes?  So far I've gotten about 3 oz electrolyte into her now.

The B vits I have are 100 mg.  I don't want to give her a toxic amount since I know they are fat soluble/stay in the body.  I take one of those a day myself....what would the injected dose be?


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## elevan (Apr 28, 2012)

SevernSunset said:
			
		

> The B vits I have are 100 mg.  I don't want to give her a toxic amount since I know they are fat soluble/stay in the body.  I take one of those a day myself....what would the injected dose be?


It's actually quite hard to overdose on Vitamin B.  The goats will flush any excess from their body.

Here is what the livestock injectible has in it per ml:

Thiamine Hydrochloride (B1)

 12.5 mg

Niacin amide

 12.5 mg

Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (B6)

 5.0 mg

d-Panthenol

 5.0 mg

Riboflavin (B2) (as Riboflavin 5' phosphate sodium)

 2.0 mg

Cyanocobalamin (B12)

 1000 mcg


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you so much Elevan.

The amounts for each item in the one I have per tablet are all 100 mg, except the b12 which is 100mcg.

Maybe I'm wrong and b complex is water soluble- it does make urine glow in the dark yellow...

How many ml would you inject a nb kid with?  I'll dissolve this tab in water and use as much as I need to do make the dose about that.


I went ahead and have now gotten a total of about 6-7 oz of electrolyte into her.  She's still limp, seems to be sleeping, but I'm not sure.  If you make goat noises at her she twitches her ears-has no control of her head ect. though.

I should just let the fluid absorb from her gut for a few hours until trying to give her anything else?


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## ksalvagno (Apr 28, 2012)

If you are dissolving pills to give to the kid, then you would give it orally. If you have gotten 6-7 ounces into her, then I would wait a few hours before giving her anything more.


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## elevan (Apr 28, 2012)

Yup.  Give it orally.  If the goat is less than 25# I would just crush 1/2 of a tablet of what you have and dissolve in some water or add to some yogurt and give it.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

thanks Ksalvagno.

I did get 6oz of electrolyte into her around 6:30.  Its 11 pm now, I've got 2 oz of milk from her dam, and I'm going to give her that plus 4 oz pastuerized goats milk.  She passed some urine, and stool both- however she's still totally limp.  I haven't seen that before in an animal- IME once they get enough fluid in them to pass urine they start to perk up- but this is my first goat experience.

I do intend to give the B vit. orally, what I wondered was how much of the injectable is given at a time- I don't want to tax her liver as one of these pills contains 8X what 1 ml of the injectable Elevan described has- I'd rather it worked out as a comparable amt. esp since there are a lot of B complex in the electrolyte I'm using.  So I still haven't given any of the tablet to her.

Her temp is normal at 102.81 now.

The other kid with the dam seems to be fine.


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## Roll farms (Apr 28, 2012)

I wouldn't worry about giving the entire b tab.  It's more poorly absorbed orally vs. injection.

(I've given kids 2 of my b vits in their bottles before.)


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## elevan (Apr 28, 2012)

SevernSunset said:
			
		

> I do intend to give the B vit. orally, what I wondered was how much of the injectable is given at a time- I don't want to tax her liver as one of these pills contains 8X what 1 ml of the injectable Elevan described has- I'd rather it worked out as a comparable amt. esp since there are a lot of B complex in the electrolyte I'm using.  So I still haven't given any of the tablet to her.


The livestock injectible is given at 1.25 ml / 25# SQ



			
				Roll farms said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry about giving the entire b tab.  It's more poorly absorbed orally vs. injection.
> 
> (I've given kids 2 of my b vits in their bottles before.)


x2

Next time you're in a store look at a bottle of 5 Hour Energy and you'll see just how much B vitamins are in there and how extreme the dosage of them is.  Don't worry about it.  The body (both humans and goats) flushes excess B vitamins out...which is why it turns the urine day glow yellow.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to me so late at night.

I'll get the vit B into her and then hit the hay...

Thanks again

Heather=^..^=


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## SevernSunset (Apr 29, 2012)

She made it through the night!

I wasn't sure she would .  She's still mostly sleeping/unconscious today, but she wakes every now and then, and moves her head around a bit, looks around and then goes back to sleep.

Still not able to suck, but is moving her tongue on the syringe when I feed her.

Her condition seems to be stable at any rate.

So I guess I'll just keep going like this, and hope she pulls through.

Thank you immensely for all your help everyone   I'll pop back on if we have any more questions, or to update that all is well!

Heather=^..^=


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 29, 2012)

I have been very busy, but for those of you who have been helping out on this thread..... Have you consider pneumonia and a need for antibiotics?


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## elevan (Apr 29, 2012)

20kidsonhill said:
			
		

> I have been very busy, but for those of you who have been helping out on this thread..... Have you consider pneumonia and a need for antibiotics?


Temp was initially high but then normalized fairly quickly...but that doesn't always mean that there is not cause for antibiotics.  They certainly wouldn't hurt in this case to be a little proactive.  Personally I would probably start on some PenG as a broad antibiotic as a preventative.  1 ml / 15# for 7 days.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 29, 2012)

Her temp has been stable and normal since I removed the hot water bottle and stopped covering her with wool blankets....Inititally I was worried she was cold, but I hadn't taken her temp, so I probably shouldn't have been.

Her breathing seems fine...but she still is pretty lethargic, although she's been trying to stand up and has been holding up her head and interacting a lot more this aft.

We really hesitate to use antibiotics preventively, and like to resort to using them for treatments only when absolutely necessary.

I've seen pneumonia in lambs, and they seemed weepy in the eyes and nose and my kid doesn't have that.  Does that happen in kids with pneumonia too?


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## ksalvagno (Apr 30, 2012)

It may or may not in goats. She also could have some septicemia going on too. If you do the Penicillin, then you want to do it twice a day.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2012)

The antibiotics are certainly your choice. Although I can say with out a doubt if she was here I would have her on Penn G.  

Has anyone suggested Baking soda for floppy kid?


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## SevernSunset (Apr 30, 2012)

Now I am hearing a little raspiness when she exhales.  She's still very weak, but is conscious.

This set in when she was 5 days- does anyone else think it could be floppy kid as 20kidsonhill suggested?

If I do use Pen G and treat her for pneumonia, would that affect her adversely if it is FKS?  Or the other way, if I treat her with baking soda, and its actually FKS, could that affect her adversely?

If I need to make a move and send my husband to the farm store to get Pen G, it has to be soon...as I'm actually 40 wks pg myself...so there's a good chance he'll be taking over the nursing of this little kid at any time...

Going to call around to see where we have to go to get Pen G....


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2012)

The hardest thing about giving the baking soda, is that it is really salty tasting and they don't like it, I mix it in a little corn syrup and a drop or two of water to thin it.  She doesn't need to aspirate and have any more problems. But the baking soda would be good for her, even if it isn't FKS,  sense she isn't moving around very much, it would help with any possible indigestion from not standing well. 

and congratulations on the pregnancy.  That is very exciting.


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## redtailgal (Apr 30, 2012)

I'd have to go ahead and start the Pen G right away.

I might would call a vet to see if I could get some Nuflor or something, mostly because Pen G scares me.  But honestly, I'd give Pen G rather than risk losing her.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't think it will be hard to get into her, she takes really well to syringe feeding.  How much should I give her?

And does that mean that if it is FKS, we'd start to see some recovery?


Something else I should mention is that I believe she is having some minor bleeding from her small (upper) intestine.  Her stool was dark this am, and when I grabbed it with toilet paper, there was a pinkish stain on the paper.  I've seen this before in non-ruminating animals (and human babies) reacting adversely to their feed, and thought it likely due to the fact that her morning feed yesterday was all pasteurized store bought goat's milk.  I was able to milk enough from her mother for the rest of the day however, and now it seems that her mother's milk has come in, she has much more....I can get about 4-6 oz from a milking a few times a day.  Still not much I know.

Anyways, I thought I should mention it in case it is a clue to something else, or if this means something different in a ruminant.

Thank you so much everyone for all of your help and support.

(and thanks for the congrats!)


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2012)

she hasn't had runny Poop?  Could be constipation from lack of eating, could be more serious. 

this directions says to mix with water, but I find they chock on it very easily, so that is why I mixed with corn syrup, so it is a little thicker and sweeter. But according to this you would see improvements in a few hours. 



Information for Floppy Kid: http://www.boergoats.com/clean/articleads.php?art=70
The first thing that we recommend is to leave affected kids off milk for 24 to 36 hrs. Again, because the kids look very weak, it has been difficult to convince goat producers that the problem is due to overfeeding and not to lack of energy. However, keeping kids temporarily off milk is probably the single most important thing in treating these cases. Secondly, the acidity of the stomach needs to be neutralized by administering a bicarbonate (baking soda) solution. For this purpose, dissolve 1 teaspoon of baking soda in one glass of water and administer 10-20- ml of this solution orally. Repeat this procedure 2 to 3 times within the following 3 to 6 hours. Most kids will show clear improvement with this treatment within the following 6 to 10 hours. Treated kids first become more active and will initially pass very solid feces that subsequently turn into diarrhea. This is a good sign and an indication that the intestines are moving again. The third part of the treatment consists of administering a wide spectrum antibiotic to prevent secondary infections. After 36 hours the affected kids can be put back with their mothers if they take them. Otherwise they would need to be raised on a milk substitute. Initially, artificial milk needs to be diluted with water and small amounts of milk (100 ml) need to be given 3 to 4 times a day for the first 2 days, then follow the manufacturers instruction.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 30, 2012)

Okie, we can't get Pen G locally- its about an hour from here.  We can get Propen LA however- I know its used in cattle, can I use that?


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## SevernSunset (Apr 30, 2012)

Sorry 20kids, I missed your post, we were posting at the same time.

That is pretty scary to take her right off milk for 24 hrs or more....

She did have some loose stools yesterday am, and I gave her a 1/4 tsp of DE and a probiotic mixed into a paste to head it off. (its an organic mgmt technique which works really well, we use regularly, as does the farmer who recommended it to me).  That treatment would also typically cause the stool to become whitish, something I haven't seen, though any darkness caused by bleeding in the upper digestive would definately mask that.


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## redtailgal (Apr 30, 2012)

I think 20kids is spot on about taking the kid off milk for 24 hours, esp if the kid is sick.  It sounds to me like this little one really needs to rest her digestive tract, and get some antibiotics in her quickly.  it's very similiar to the regimen we follow for calves.  Stress + milk +being sedentary= poor digestion which leads to bloat in any critter.

She would get fluids from the treatments, and from the elctrolytes you would be giving her.

I'm not sure about using Propen for goats.........20kids?  what do you think?


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2012)

redtailgal said:
			
		

> I think 20kids is spot on about taking the kid off milk for 24 hours, esp if the kid is sick.  It sounds to me like this little one really needs to rest her digestive tract, and get some antibiotics in her quickly.  it's very similiar to the regimen we follow for calves.  Stress + milk +being sedentary= poor digestion which leads to bloat in any critter.
> 
> She would get fluids from the treatments, and from the elctrolytes you would be giving her.
> 
> I'm not sure about using Propen for goats.........20kids?  what do you think?


I have a bottle of it, bought it  by accident and I have used it, Not positive if it works the same as Procain G.  But if it is all I could find, that is what I would use. 

I have heard of someone mixing it with B complex to slow down the absorption of the thiamin. So I know you can use it on goats.


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## ksalvagno (Apr 30, 2012)

Is that Propen LA a long acting Penicillin? If it is, then that is fine to use. Just have to use it once a day instead of twice a day.


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## 20kidsonhill (Apr 30, 2012)

ksalvagno said:
			
		

> Is that Propen LA a long acting Penicillin? If it is, then that is fine to use. Just have to use it once a day instead of twice a day.


Yes, that is what the OP is referring to.


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## SevernSunset (Apr 30, 2012)

Yep for sure, its propen LA.  

So I can treat her simultaneously for fks and pneumonia then?  Beacause I'm having a really hard time determining which one it is, based on the fact that she is not bloated/constipated, feverish, cold, runny nosed, and she has a very slight wheeze on exhaling, though that could be from laying still for so many days.

So If I follow correctly....this is what I'll do-

1.stop giving her milk right now.
2. give her the same quantity of electrolyte in place of milk.
3.start her on the propen LA as soon as I can aquire it (Tues afternoon)
4.administer baking soda orally 24 hrs after her last feed of milk.


Again, thank you so much everyone for all of your advice and support.  I am really impressed at this community, and so glad that I found it.  ((hugs))


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## SevernSunset (May 1, 2012)

Now the twin doe kid in the barn is going wobbly on her front legs 

My husband should be home any minute with the propen LA, which we will give the weak kid in the house right away, and start her on the baking soda now as well.

Her breathing became very laboured and raspy during the night- so I'm really thinking pneumonia...

I'm not sure what to think of the kid in the barn?  I'll start with her temp.  She doesn't feel as solid/thick as she did yesterday. Is it common for FKS to occur in both twin kids?


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## 20kidsonhill (May 2, 2012)

Sorry, I haven't gotten back with you. My computer was hit with lightening, and had to have some repairs done to it. Luckly, we have a great computer person who lives just down the road and clearly knows a lot about computers. 

I personally don't have a lot of experience with FKS, But the first thing I do if a kid is off feed, or acting weak is give them baking soda and start them on Penn G.  

  crossing my fingers that they start improving.


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## SevernSunset (May 2, 2012)

We gave her (the twin, once robust) penicillan (propen LA) last night and she's still gotten weaker, so we are now separating her from her dam to get her off milk for 24 hrs before baking soda.

Do you keep them off milk 20kids for 24 hrs before baking soda?

The first kid has regained consciousness, and some strength-she's starting to drink from a bottle, not too well, but she's motivated   Not sure when we should put her back on milk?  

I'm nervous too because we can't get CDT anti-toxin here, only the bacterin (vaccine).  Not sure why but nobody stocks it. (sad as I saw about 30 or 40 lambs die last year as a result on the farm where I was working, and the anti-toxin could have saved them; I got to haul them away in the wheel barrow every am.)

I feel like I won't be able to go into my own labour until these kids are strong enough....


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## ksalvagno (May 2, 2012)

No, you don't have to wait 24 hours to give the baking soda. I would go ahead and give it now.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 2, 2012)

I don't wait 24 hours.  I give them baking soda and Penn G as soon as I realize they are having problems.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 2, 2012)

I purchased C & D antitoxin from Jefferslivestock.com, along with a cooler and an ice pack to have it mailed to me. I have been very happy with their service and prices.  I just used some the other day on a 3 day old kid that was scouring.


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## SevernSunset (May 3, 2012)

We lost the first kid   She had been starting to stand even, and was starting to suck again.  So hard.

Going ahead with treating the second kid.  Terrified that something will happen to the kids from the 2nd doe.  Our first kidding season is a hard one.

Just found out from a friend that antitoxins are available but only by vet prescription for some reason in Ontario.  However she said that vets don't have much trouble prescribing it for you to keep on hand so long as you have a farm.

Thanks again for all your wise words everyone.


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## 20kidsonhill (May 3, 2012)




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## Mamaboid (May 3, 2012)

So sorry for your loss, hope the little one does ok for you.


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## Pearce Pastures (May 3, 2012)

I am so sorry


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## elevan (May 3, 2012)




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## SevernSunset (May 3, 2012)

thanks everyone.


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