# LocoYokel's kindling thread (aka What the ???)



## LocoYokel (Mar 22, 2017)

Hello wise rabbit folk. I sure could use some advice. My meat type doe kindled 9 days ago and seemed to be doing great. This is her second litter. She is rather aggressive when she has kits so I haven't done much more than clean and count (7)  day 1, peek and a headcount day 3 and 6. Today I really looked and I have one kit that is much smaller and it's little tummy is not so round as should be, it is squirmy tho. There are two other kits 4X it's size, 3 inbetwixt and another smallish one.
She has Gobs of nest material. I was wondering if I could make another nest for the two big kits for the night so the smaller could get more milk. There is no question of holding her, she just isn't that type of gal...
Is there some other type of solution to help this one out? In the past I would have just hoped for the best but now I have found you all here at BYH!!
The doe is a D'ArgentXCheckered Giant and the buck is a Silver Fox. Her last litter also had some huge kits compared to the others in the litter.


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 22, 2017)

I think what you do (if anything) depends on whether or not you think the size issue is due to genetics or milk consumption. More than likely it is a combination of both. For me, at 9 days, I would just leave them. They will be out of the nest box soon and usually the smaller ones start picking up weight then because they can start eating feed. 

If you want to do something I think the best option is make a supplemental milk and feed it that so that you know it isn't hungry and it will have more fight in it for when mama jumps into the box. I think the best milk replacement is a mixture of whole goat milk, heavy cream, and kitten milk replacer. Double check me on that though! There is mention of it on the ARBA website, and I have read that is what people have the most success 
with (I haven't had to use it myself). 

I have held the doe for the smaller one to nurse before but you said that isn't an option, and I would think its too old to foster. Idk if anyone may have experience fostering older kits here or not...


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## LocoYokel (Mar 23, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> I think what you do (if anything) depends on whether or not you think the size issue is due to genetics or milk consumption. More than likely it is a combination of both. For me, at 9 days, I would just leave them. They will be out of the nest box soon and usually the smaller ones start picking up weight then because they can start eating feed.
> 
> If you want to do something I think the best option is make a supplemental milk and feed it that so that you know it isn't hungry and it will have more fight in it for when mama jumps into the box. I think the best milk replacement is a mixture of whole goat milk, heavy cream, and kitten milk replacer. Double check me on that though! There is mention of it on the ARBA website, and I have read that is what people have the most success
> with (I haven't had to use it myself).
> ...



Thank you HaloRabbits. I will check into the supplement. I don't have another doe to foster it on and it has made it this long, gonna hope for the best and Mother Nature will do the rest....


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## JakeM (Mar 23, 2017)

Just to tack on some extra information, I believe does only have 8 teats, so the 2 smaller kits are likely fighting each other for the last teat.

And yes, once they have eyes open and can move around better, they'll chase mom for a meal and eat some pellets and hay and should catch up eventually.


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## LocoYokel (Mar 23, 2017)

Ten days old, eyes not open yet but in the next day or two... sorry if pics are fuzzy, they move so much! 
1.Wee one is second from right, you can barely see it. 2. Big n Lil' side by side, they posed! 3. Two littlest center.

   
They seem to be doing OK again today. Tilda bit me when I took the box out so I probably won't mess with them again for a few days. Usually she just strikes. This was a first for her AND me!  yelp...


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## HaloRabbits (Mar 23, 2017)

Oh wow, they are tiny. That is not just milk, they're runty. Awesome colors! Keep us updated.


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 26, 2017)

If you have another doe with its around the same size and age, foster the smaller kits to her. They are a bit small, but don't look starved or unhealthy.


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## LocoYokel (Mar 27, 2017)

Sorry I am behind, we moved the sheep to their new home this weekend. 
Sad news, the wee one didn't make it. I also lost one of the mid-sized blacks, it was outside of the box on the wire and with almost freezing temps at night it didn't stand a chance.  It seems Tilda was so upset with me that she piddled in the nest so all the kits were spread out: away from the wet but also each other so no body heat shared. I am sure that is why the wee one died, it was small but spry. The black may have just crawled too far or was latched on and drug out. 
There was no choice but to clean the nest so I saved as much dry material as I could.  After lining the bottom and sides with dry stuff I put that back in with the kits in the center.  (Felt like I was making some fancy layered dessert!)  Tilda has pulled some more fur to add to it so I hope she is still feeding them.  This litter has really put my learning curve to the test... 
Tilda was a super mom with her first litter but that was last fall and the nights were not so bitterly cold.  There was no need to peek much after that first head count.  My checking her box so often this spring has obviously not gone over well with her.  Almost all of my rabbit experience has been with proven does, the rules seem to have changed on me (the list is certainly longer) with these junior does!  
My next litter is due tomorrow, more on that doe later...
Guess it's a good thing I love to learn because I am getting one heckuva education this spring!


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 27, 2017)

Its hard to decide how often to check nest boxes. You don't want to let dead ones sit in the nest, but you don't want to bother the dam, either. For nights when in gets close to or below freezing, bringing the kits and dam inside is a good idea. I've heard that heatlamps work, too. Good luck on your next litter!


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## LocoYokel (Mar 27, 2017)

...and speaking of that next litter: Ella has 6 so far and I think I interrupted her by counting. Never had a doe kindle in the daytime before, that I know of!
She is a 2 yr old Checkered Giant. When I got her a few months ago she looked like a basketball with ears: SO overweight.  She had been a little girl's pet in her past life so I am sure the treats flowed freely! In this life she needs to be a producer so after 3 months of a regular diet I bred my still fat 2 yr old first time doe to a fat 2 yr old first time buck.  (Pookie, the buck, is my neighbor's white Flemish Giant. Yes, we were experimenting...)  I tried to palpate her but she was too thick so I popped her in with my buck at 2 weeks, which she refused. That was my best guess that she was bred.  Now there are at least 6 HUGE kits a day early!
 
I think since I already pestered her I will leave her alone and do a tally in the morning.  She hadn't pulled much fur so I may go put some that she has pulled out on the wire into the nest... but I promise not to look or touch anything else! 
Ella in the new hutch, before the nest box: where the nest box sits. 

Did a check on Tilda's kits and got to see little peepers open! The 5 that are left are growing leaps and bounds, I swear the runtiest has doubled in size just since Saturday!


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 27, 2017)

Checkered giants are beautiful! They are a lot of fun to watch being shown, because they are a running breed. Ella doesn't look too overweight, but definately keep her feed restricted. Obesity cam cause kindling complications. You should get some extra-big bunnies from this litter, but if you want them for meat, not the best. The giant breeds are innefficient for meat, since they are so darn big. She looks like she'll be a good momma!


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## LocoYokel (Mar 28, 2017)

Went out to check baby bunz: Tilda's box is boiling, she has it almost full to the top with fur and straw and the whole thing looked like it was ready to bubble over. I wouldn't be surprised it those kits are out on the wire in the next day or two.
Ella is still in her nestbox, she is laying well forward so I hope she is not on her kits.  I am not so worried about how cold it got last nite, now I am worried about her smothering them.  She moved right into that nestbox as soon as it was in and used it for her own.

Should I put another box in for her?  Or could that confuse her so she doesn't feed the kits? Has anyone else have a doe do this?

@DutchBunny03, This breeding was an experiment to see if she would even breed at her age and weight and if the buck was fertile. Guess that one came out a big YES!  I might keep a doe to breed to my Silver Fox buck as I would like to keep a bit of size but was thinking more 1/4 giant, not 1/2, so in another two generations I should be close....  

If not one thing then another: Life and Times of the Barn Mother!


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## LocoYokel (Mar 28, 2017)

Six and she didn't lose any. Way to go Ella! They made it thru the cold (35 F) night but she still hasn't pulled much fur. I think for now her sitting on them like a mother hen is probably a good thing.  The hutches are in my chicken run so maybe she got confused...

  
This is how her nest looks when she is out of it, the kits seemed to be quite warm and active for such naked lil' things. I'll just keep close watch today and maybe figure out how to run a heat lamp out there in case I think they need it.


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## Marie28 (Mar 28, 2017)

Yay!! 
I know some people use dryer lint or fluffed out cotton balls when the doe dosnt pull enough fur.  Our doe pulled extra this time so I saved some in a zip lock just in case she dosnt pull enough next time. Not sure about adding another box though... maybe put some extra hay in the corner for her to lay on?


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## DutchBunny03 (Mar 28, 2017)

Yay!!! Thats a great first litter. Many first litters have complications, regardless of the rabbit's weight.  Try brushing her. You can use the fur for her nest. Another box may confuse her, or cause her to abandon the kits, but you could give it a shot and moniter  her behavior.
You may want to keep a doe and a buck, because limiting the gene pool too much could eventually  cause defects or loss of productivity.


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## LocoYokel (Mar 30, 2017)

Ella has finally pulled some more fur so I decided to give her an option to get out of the nest, hopefully she gets the hint!  Her box is only a few inches high and hardly large enough for her big round bum. She will probably just rob the straw and pad the other... 
  

I tried to take pics of Tilda's kits today but they were not cooperating, however the runt was "King of the Kitpile".  I am also SUPER excited about Ella's kits. Four whites, one spotted, and one red. Hoping that red one is a girl!


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## DutchBunny03 (Apr 2, 2017)

The kits are adorable!!! They seem to be growing very nicely. Ella is a super first time dam.


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## LocoYokel (Apr 15, 2017)

Wow time flies when you have pics to take!  I am working on a remodel right now and between that and crappy weather the babies have made do just fine without me...
Tilda's are 4.5 weeks now and just beautiful colors. I know the second pic is blurry but what color would that be called? Very uniform blend of grey and brown. Is that chinchilla? 
  
Ella's, at 2.5 weeks, are almost as big as Tilda's median size.  I am keeping the red?orange? and the broken and going to try to sell the whites as pets.
  
Not sexed yet but hoping I don't have two bucks. I am not only out of practice but have never sexed kits much, mostly adults. Anybody have a great link, with pics?  
I bred Suki again today with my Silver Fox, Furnando. She was receptive so I am hoping this time...  This is her third try: First litter born on the wire and I was too late: Second, false pregnancy? 
Speaking of which it is that magic 12th hour... time to go make my 'Nando happy for 3.2 seconds


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 15, 2017)

Ah so cute! As far as sexing kits, it is best to wait until around 4 weeks.  I have sexed at 2.5 weeks but it is much harder and mistakes can happen. I had one I wanted to keep this go around and checked a couple at 2.5 weeks and thought one was a boy and one was a girl, I checked them again at their 4 week weigh in, both bucks  lol. I am only keeping does because I have no "room" for any more bucks. So for this litter I actually won't be keeping any, most are brokens and I have 3 brokens in my breeding rotation already. 

So you should be good to check Tilda's kits now, and sexing them is the same as sexing older rabbits, just smaller machinery haha.


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## LocoYokel (Apr 26, 2017)

I already need new glasses @HaloRabbits, and this "smaller machinery" has me eyes crossed and me jaws clenched....
So after my last post I went and looked, came up with:
  Largest blk: doe
  Smaller blk: buck
  Solid grey/blue?: buck
  Grey/brown roan: doe
  and the runt: I can only describe as light grey with white chrome, silver tips and black points.  It has to be one of the most beautiful colored rabbits I have seen.  It also seems to be a buck. As a runt I feel it may max out at 6-7 lbs. That was what his full sister runt from the previous litter hit at 6 months.  Is that proper guesstamating?

I would really like to sell some as pets as well as meat breeders but the market here is flooded with meat rabbits, going for $10-$15 for a weaned kit.  Proven breeders, if not registered are not much more.  The specialty bunz, like the Holland Lops are getting $75 and up.  I just don't have enuff hutches......

Perhaps my Nelson needs a lady friend:   (his dark and brooding come hither pic) we can go pet lionheads or cornish game rabbit?    I do know that now he is an adult he is a stinky boy in the house.   Of course his cage sits right by my chair so that might not help.  Any hints on small inside bunnies would be welcome, my only other house bun was an Angora/ English Lop cross and litter trained.  That was before small inside dogs....

I am going to put my glasses on tomorrow and go violate some privacy again.  After the last check I have only been handling to pet so Tilda's kits might not be so squirmy.  Besides, we all need the practice 

It is also time to try to sex Ella's batch.  Looking for that little leaf or volcano, I mean how hard can it be, at least I know I have a 50% correct chance on each!  Not bad odds for an ol' blind fart, uh farmer... 

As soon as I can get my phone/camera back from DH I will take some pics of that runt.   He is just too purdy to eat, I hate it when that happens.


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 26, 2017)

What breeds are your meat rabbits? 
Senior Rabbits around here go for $50 and kits for $20. I bought my starter two for $50 and $35, both unproven and 7 and 6 months old respectively. The doe was bred by a proven buck a couple days before pick up. 
Also location could be determinate in the price.


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## bunny gurl (Apr 26, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> Sorry I am behind, we moved the sheep to their new home this weekend.
> Sad news, the wee one didn't make it. I also lost one of the mid-sized blacks, it was outside of the box on the wire and with almost freezing temps at night it didn't stand a chance.  It seems Tilda was so upset with me that she piddled in the nest so all the kits were spread out: away from the wet but also each other so no body heat shared. I am sure that is why the wee one died, it was small but spry. The black may have just crawled too far or was latched on and drug out.
> There was no choice but to clean the nest so I saved as much dry material as I could.  After lining the bottom and sides with dry stuff I put that back in with the kits in the center.  (Felt like I was making some fancy layered dessert!)  Tilda has pulled some more fur to add to it so I hope she is still feeding them.  This litter has really put my learning curve to the test...
> Tilda was a super mom with her first litter but that was last fall and the nights were not so bitterly cold.  There was no need to peek much after that first head count.  My checking her box so often this spring has obviously not gone over well with her.  Almost all of my rabbit experience has been with proven does, the rules seem to have changed on me (the list is certainly longer) with these junior does!
> ...


I know it is a little late but for future reference those kits both look like peanuts which is common in any of the dwarf breeds like Netherlands or Holland lops if you have two parent who have the true dwarf gene you risk have peanuts in your litters but you can also have normal litters it is different every time the only thing is to humanely cull them some breeders leave them for nature to take it course but I do not it is not fair knowing they will not make it anyways as they do not having a true working digestive system so it is impossible for them to survive but to foster as well you can do this at any time as long as the kits are about similar size just take a drop of vanilla extract and put it on the foster does nose and slip the kit in the bottom of the nest by the time she can smell something besides vanilla she will be none the wiser I hope this helps for the future


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## LocoYokel (Apr 26, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> What breeds are your meat rabbits?



My meat rabbits are two Checkered Giant does, a D'Argent/CG X doe and my buck is full Silver Fox.  I borrow a full Flemish Giant buck sometimes.  I saw a trio of registered Silver Foxes for $50, or $20 each on craigslist yesterday. Those are tuff prices to compete with when you have mixed breeds....

@bunny gurl  the only dwarf I have is the lionhead but I would like to breed him at some point.  Thanks for the info! I rarely breed two does at the same time due to space issues but DH is going to help me set up two more growout hutches. 

I am beginning to think that the D'Argent/CG doe (Tilda) isn't quite what was advertized. She is a big doe and this her second litter, both with runts.  I think next time I breed her I am going to borrow the Flemish Giant that I used for Ella's litter. I also am going to cut the re-breed time to 6 hours instead of 12 in hopes of more similar sized kits. 
I just love Tilda's otter color and she has pretty babies, of course that's not important for a meat rabbit but I am going to try to sell as many as I can before butcher time.  I did get some response for the CG/FG X kits but no sales: The bucks owner spoke for the two colored ones and those were the ones folk's were interested in.  I am hoping to get some color out of Tilda's breeding to him.  He is an Albino. 
That also gives me two litters not related to my SF buck so if I keep any does I will start breeding the size down a bit for a better meat type rabbit.  
I guess I just have a thing for those big bunz!


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## HaloRabbits (Apr 27, 2017)

Yea FG do not make good meat rabbits but the crosses are used fairly often. NZ x FG is becoming a more popular cross that I am seeing.


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## bunny gurl (May 1, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> Yea FG do not make good meat rabbits but the crosses are used fairly often. NZ x FG is becoming a more popular cross that I am seeing.


Flemish are a meat rabbit and I actually have loads of people to buy mine as soon as I have kits available the only thing is sometimes they are too large for certain ppl as they run 22 lbs usually and most ppl only want something 5-7lbs finished


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## bunny gurl (May 1, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> My meat rabbits are two Checkered Giant does, a D'Argent/CG X doe and my buck is full Silver Fox.  I borrow a full Flemish Giant buck sometimes.  I saw a trio of registered Silver Foxes for $50, or $20 each on craigslist yesterday. Those are tuff prices to compete with when you have mixed breeds....
> 
> @bunny gurl  the only dwarf I have is the lionhead but I would like to breed him at some point.  Thanks for the info! I rarely breed two does at the same time due to space issues but DH is going to help me set up two more growout hutches.
> 
> ...


the rebreed time you are using is not going to make a size difference in the kits like that unless she is pregnantin both horns and then she would probably have kits from one side than the second side but you would know if this was the case as she would basically be in labour twice they usually don't kindle both horns at the same time if you are getting the peanuts or runts it is most likely because of several different reasons peanuts are the dwarf gene but runts can be small bunny or if she is small pelvis or her insides can also be small or she could have retained or calcified kits lacking in her diet obesity there are so many things it could be or like you said maybe she isn't what you were told she was


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## Bunnylady (May 1, 2017)

bunny gurl said:


> just take a drop of vanilla extract and put it on the foster does nose



If you don't want to risk inhalation issues with your doe (can you imagine getting alcohol up_ your_ nose? OUCH!), don't bother with the vanilla. In over 30 years of breeding rabbits, I have played put and take in the nest boxes countless times, and never had a doe pay it any attention. If I think a doe is likely to, I make sure to move the kits when she is otherwise occupied, though I have often slipped kits in while a doe is in the box nursing and nobody paid any mind. I suspect the vanilla thing is something passed around by inexperienced breeders who feel they have to "do something" to make it turn out right; experienced breeders have had it work out fine enough times not to bother.



LocoYokel said:


> I just love Tilda's otter color



A (Creme?)D'Argent/Checkered Giant can't be Otter; the Tan pattern gene doesn't exist in those breeds. I'm curious about what she actually is . . . ?

Also, if Ella is supposed to be a Checkered Giant, she isn't (well, let's just say that if she is, she has really, _really_ poor type!)





This is a Checkered Giant. They are huge rabbits, but they aren't just big and spotted, they are tall, lanky, slender animals with a lot of daylight under them. For some reason, a lot of people mis-identify any broken patterned rabbit as being a Checkered Giant or an English Spot, when there's really no similarity at all. In Ella's case, I suspect she is mostly New Zealand.



bunny gurl said:


> she would basically be in labour twice they usually don't kindle both horns at the same time



They _do_ kindle them all at once; the only time there is any disparity in the birthing times would be when there are _days_ rather than _hours_ in between the two breedings. Occasionally, you may run into a doe that spreads kindling out for other reasons; English Angoras are notorious for kindling over the course of a few days. I had a Jersey Wooly give birth to 3 one day, and a few days later, 3 more, but that was from a single breeding. Most of the time, if a doe doesn't give birth to them all within a few minutes, it's because something is wrong (like a stuck kit).

Kits may be born small for many reasons; one of the simplest is because they implanted close together inside the doe and there wasn't room for their placentas to grow properly. When that's the case, the kits generally grow normally once they are born, and mature to something close to their parents' size.

Underdog bias and all that, but a kit that is born small and doesn't grow right most likely won't make it. You can knock yourself out trying to help them, and they still won't make slaughter weight. Even if they make it past weaning age, their lives are usually short. It may sound heartless, but letting them take the chance of losing the fight during the first few days of life may actually be a kindness, and save you a lot of hassle and heartache later. The worst thing you can do is get so attached that you keep the poorly one, grow it up and breed it - you need to tell yourself that whatever is wrong with that kit, it's not something you want to keep in the gene pool. Older does may produce kits that are "off" just because the doe is older, but I would question the usefulness of a young doe that repeatedly produces babies with "something not right" about them. Kits should be close to the same size when they leave the nest box (within a few ounces, anyway); if this doe regularly rears some huge kits and some tiny ones, I suspect something is wrong with her milk supply.


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## HaloRabbits (May 1, 2017)

bunny gurl said:


> Flemish are a meat rabbit and I actually have loads of people to buy mine as soon as I have kits available the only thing is sometimes they are too large for certain ppl as they run 22 lbs usually and most ppl only want something 5-7lbs finished



Technically you can use any rabbit for meat.. Majority of people do not use FG for meat because of them having heavier bone. The feed to food ratio is lower with FG than with New Zealands or Californians.

Most people use "fryers" for meat which is usually around 5 lbs and 9-12 weeks old. BUT a 5 lb NZ is going to have more meat than a 5 lb FG. A FG will take longer to get meaty.

So the breeds like NZ and Cali's are often preferred for people who breed solely for meat.


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## LocoYokel (May 1, 2017)

bunny gurl said:


> the rebreed time you are using is not going to make a size difference in the kits like that unless she is pregnantin both horns


@bunny gurl, I was wondering about that, Thank You, now I don't have to research so much!



Bunnylady said:


> A (Creme?)D'Argent/Checkered Giant can't be Otter; the Tan pattern gene doesn't exist in those breeds. I'm curious about what she actually is . . . ?


Me too @Bunnylady!! Suki and Ella are both supposed to be Checkered Giants but I have never been able to find any pics to match.  They both look to be the same breed even if they came from two different sources.  Very long and heavy bodied, +/- 15 lbs, I really should weigh them sometime...  Thank You for the New Zealand tip!!  After looking at some pics of the broken NZ's I really see it.

My farmer friend, Gordon, had 5 does and 2 bucks just sitting in cages behind his barn.  The DH fixed up my empty hutches and G gave me two does (Tilda n Suki) and the Silver Fox buck. G kept the Flemish Giant buck, which is the one I borrowed for Ella's litter.  The two bucks look purebred but the FG seems small for his breed to me, not that I am familiar but from what I have read about breed standards.  Now that I see the albinos Ella threw I am wondering if he is all FG.  G got all of his rabbits from the same breeder and he was the one who told me what they were.  They were the right price, free, so whatever was fine by me!   Ella, who looks like Suki was a freebie Easter bun that was no longer so fun two years late, again the right price, and she looks just like my Suki.  I just went by what I was told, silly me!! 
I have never cared about breeds so much but now that the rabbits are a hobby as well as a food source I seem to be getting into the breed thing more... and I love to learn.  Having the resources the internet provides has helped and after reading so much here at BYH I just HAVE to know more!
Guess I will try to get G to take me to the breeder where the bunz came from, that should clear things up a bit... I better take my glasses AND a camera!
My breeders are pets to me and I plan to only breed 2 litters per doe/year so my does should be with me quite a while.  I only cull when I  have a non-producer (  Suki  ) or a really nasty temperament.   Speaking of which I need to palpate Suki today, if for nothing else but the practice! 
This will actually be the first time I have kept back any kits for future breedings. I want to keep at least a buck out of Ella's batch for now. Who knows what future experiments, uh...breedings, I meant breedings, might bring!
(It sure would be nice to know what I am workin' with now tho...  )

Suki:
Ella:
FurNando (buck):
Tilda:


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## Bunnylady (May 2, 2017)

FurNando is probably a mix of some sort. He doesn't have the right coat for a Silver Fox (not as long as an angora, but at 1 1/2 inches long, it has a shagginess that sets it apart from other "normal" coats). He doesn't have as many white hairs as you usually see in a Champagne D'Argent, but that's a possibility.






Tilda is definitely an Otter; the question is, where did that color come from? Two commercial-type breeds, Satin and Rex, come in Otter, but she doesn't appear to have either a Rex or Satin coat. The Silver Marten is genetically only a step away from Otter; while Tilda can't be a purebred Silver Marten, a SM bred to a self-colored rabbit would produce Otters. Any of those breeds (Satin, Rex, Silver Marten) could be one of her parents. On the other hand, she could be a "Heinz 57" and any purebreds are a lot further back, too.

The Flemish loaner buck might be purebred, or might not. Flemish do come in REW, after all, and not_ every_ purebred animal will weigh 13 lbs or more. I assume you are thinking he might be part New Zealand, too? The biggest difference between the FG and the NZ is the body type; the FG's semi-arch ("mandolin") type is longer and more tapered than the deep, broad, chunky commercial type of the NZ.


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## LocoYokel (May 2, 2017)

So I went out to palpate Suki yesterday but she was busy pulling chest fur to add to the nest she has started in a corner!  I am taking that as a prego/positive and am not going to ruffle any fur further.  I really want her to have a successful pregnancy this time.  She also had some loose stool, not quite full diarrhea but definitely not firm pellets.  Absolutely nothing has been changed or added to her diet: CHS Payback 18% and grass hay.  The hay is the same I have fed out all winter.  Mineral block and water, check. 
We had a very loud, very long thunderstorm two days ago, stress? Could hormones cause the runs?  It does coincide with her nest building, even if she is starting two weeks early! 
(she likes the no-skid strips I put on the ledges) 


Tilda's kits got sexed again, or at least I practiced sexing again...    The biggest black still looks female and the runt still looks male.  At least those two stayed the same.  Now I am thinking the other black is a female also. The grey/brown roan is definitely male, got that one wrong for sure!  The blue? which I thought was a male was either being shy or my fingers were just WAY too cold... absolutely nothing popped up there...  Got some cute pics tho!  


 
Pretty Boy Floyd: (the runt whose color I like so much, not so runty anymore)


 
The herd at work:


 
Ella dreaming of weaning:


 
Tilda really posed for this one:


 
A better pic of 'Nando:


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## HaloRabbits (May 2, 2017)

haha you have got some really cute pics! I chuckled at the "daydreaming of weaning" photo. You should put it in for Picture of the Week, be sure to include that title haha.


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## LocoYokel (May 8, 2017)

Quick update, @Bunnylady, yes they are New Zealands, or at the least 3/4,  the breeder thought there might be some Checkered G in there due to where he got the dams from and the size.  I can see some of the CG body shape when they are not bred or "pudgy", if that is the case.  He also told me Tilda IS at the least, a Silver Martin or X, she came from another breeder and he could not remember what else those people had. Tilda was sold when he 'thinned' his herd.  Pookie, the FG buck is purebred (pics to come, he should be 'visiting' Tilda next week), and the only albino in the litter... and the runt. 

 I checked Ella real close today and moved four of the six kits out, at six weeks it was time and she is thin, too thin for my liking.  I have read I should leave FG babies with their dams longer due to bone growth.  Well... they grew and she is bony.  Calf Manna for that sweetheart, I should have kept it up until weaning but when the kits started eating from the feeder I didn't want them to overdo... I don't like runny rabbit doodoo!  Now I have a skinny doe, yep, that one, the one I thought too old and fat to breed has turned into my best momma I am thinkin'.  My other does get testy, she gets sweeter... the rabbit I didn't want...

My buck is also thin.  I was told two when I got him which makes him around four now. Checked him all over and no lumps or lesions.  He came from a different breeder also so I am still unsure of anything but Silver Fox in him. 

I finally found where my DH hid my scales, I just saw it three weeks ago in the storeroom... now to get a ladder that reaches to the attic in the shop...    A momma robin has nested in the top rung of the one I usually use so it is busy at the moment.  Yes, another nest to watch!!


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## LocoYokel (May 13, 2017)

Found these two in their Aunt Suki's hutch last week, the new hutch was NOT baby proof it seems.  It is now!    The lil' broken  has almost the same marking as Suki and it really messed with my head when I saw it first:  Like Suki had shrunk!  Something wasn't right but until I got closer it was just weird...  I weaned the other 4 kits that day and these two a few days ago.  Ella is very happy to have them all gone, I can just see it in her face.  


 

Speaking of Suki, she got her nesting box last night.  She is due Monday.  I hope she doesn't start using it for a litter box as she is rather a 'dirty' rabbit that way.   Then again I am just hoping this kindling goes well.  It is her third breeding and I really do not want to cull her...   

The robin has left her nest, thank you neighbor's cat.  I also have been finding robin eggs in my yard, unhatched, with just a tiny hole poked in them... probably the starlings, they are nasty birds.


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## LocoYokel (May 13, 2017)

I have been following a thread about rabbit colors and genotypes.  Looks like I have some studying to do!    My major in college was biology, with a lot of botany tossed in.  I really got into the genetics but more plant than animal... 

links for my own reference: 
http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-genetics/broken-pattern-en-charlie-solid/ 
http://www.raising-rabbits.com/rabbit-coat-color-genetics.html
If anyone else has a great link to rabbit color/genetics I would love to have it!!


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## HaloRabbits (May 14, 2017)

I also studied biology in college, more into animals and humans than plants. Plant biology was the worst for me. Fingers crossed for Suki.


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## Bunnylady (May 14, 2017)

As often as the subject comes up, I have considered writing an article on coat color genetics, but the sheer amount of material would probably keep people from reading it.


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## animalmom (May 23, 2017)

So, I know you've been busy with the remodel and life in general, but... the galaxy is wondering what happened with Mothership Suki?


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## LocoYokel (May 24, 2017)

_
(Captain's Log: Stardate/Earth o4.14.17
Mothership Suki has been restocked for her third voyage.
Due to Fleet General Pookie's tribble trouble Fleet General FurNando did the inspection and gave an "All systems go."
The "Suki" has been restationed into permanent quarters in the new fleet barn. All future flights shall now originate from those co-ordinates.)_

Captain's Log: Stardate Earth 05.24.17
Starbase Barn: The Mothership Suki has once again failed in her mission.  After a brief transmission on day 14 all communication was lost before her landing.
The Suki was closely examined while docked at day 27 of her mission, at which time she was found to have to have an external obstruction of debris in her rear propulsion engine.
This Captain is sure this was due to the Klingon Nation.  Klingons are the most likely suspect responsible for the failure of the Suki's mission. Fleet General FurNando and the Mothership Suki herself both gave successful log reports at the time of her restocking which have been recorded here in Starbase Barn's records.
The failure of the Suki's mission shall not be taken into account at this time due to possible collusion of Klingon activity.  
After removal of the debris and the fact of her new quarters having complete "galvi-net" substrate we here at Starbase Barn feel that the Suki is ready for another mission.
Starbase Barn and I, as Captain do not recommend her decommissioning at this time due to external factors.
The Suki will be restocked and sent out again within 48 hours.


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## Hopalong Causually (May 24, 2017)

Fascinating.
Observation of these Earthbound mammalian life forms requires more time to adequately differentiate them from the common tribble.  
Live long and prosper, LocoYokel.


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## LocoYokel (May 24, 2017)

animalmom said:


> ... the galaxy is wondering what happened with Mothership Suki?



Thanks for reminding me!  I kept meaning to update Suki's status but did not realize how long it has been!  
In other news I have decided to keep the broken kit from Ella and Pookies litter. Purdy sure it's a she... and her name will be Sukitu, if it is a he, just drop the "u".  I did NOT have my glasses on...  still unsure about the red one.  It was the friendliest kit I have ever had until it fell out of the hutch, now it isn't.   Still hoping it is a buck but... O yeah!, didn't have my glasses on!
In any case it's name is Clawd, regardless!

As much as I want a second and/or replacement buck from Pookie the Flemish Giant I really do not care for REW's.  I haven't even tried to sex those four. Going to run an ad on CL for them again so I guess I should try.  Practice, right?

Is food coloring safe to use for an ear marker?  I have never had any reason to have to tell one kit from another before, there was always a color or size difference...


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## LocoYokel (May 24, 2017)

Suki: 


Sukitu and Clawd:


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## animalmom (May 24, 2017)

Outpost Animalmom:  Starbase Barn: Concur that unfortunate Klingon activity hindered completion of Mothership Suki task.  Concur another refit/restock and deploy without prejudice.

Reports of verified "permanent" marker application for identification with understanding the identification is not, repeat not permanent.  Reports indication mark lasts less than 7 days due to various factors.  Outpost's Chief Medical Officer reports no indication of skin irritation with application of marker.

Godspeed Mothership Suki.


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## LocoYokel (May 25, 2017)

Finally! Got all the kits sexed and the does win!  Of Tilda's litter only the two large blacks are female, three male.  Ella had five females and one male.  Of course Ella's boy is REW but I think I might keep him for a while, at least until he is old enough to breed and see what happens from there...
Clawdetta: 


Her ears have started to flopsie, not all the time and not always both at the same time.  Is there a reason for this?  Whatever, I think it is cute!


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## LocoYokel (May 26, 2017)

Captain's Log: Stardate Earth 05.26.17
The Mothership Suki has been recommissioned and has began loading for her fourth mission. Fleet General FurNando is again supervising. 

Outpost @animalmom's Chief Medical Officer is to be commended for their research of crew identification tags.  This shall now be standard procedure at Starbase Barn.  

REW Jr. Doe Green and REW Jr. Doe Purple have been promoted to Outpost Misty for Sr. Doe status. Congratulations to those crewmembers. This Captain has all confidence in their future performance.  Outpost Misty will be sending a Jr. Buck officer to add to our own crew here at Starbase Barn when all Mothership dependencies are cleared.


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## firedragon1982 (May 26, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> Finally! Got all the kits sexed and the does win!  Of Tilda's litter only the two large blacks are female, three male.  Ella had five females and one male.  Of course Ella's boy is REW but I think I might keep him for a while, at least until he is old enough to breed and see what happens from there...
> Clawdetta: View attachment 35081
> Her ears have started to flopsie, not all the time and not always both at the same time.  Is there a reason for this?  Whatever, I think it is cute!



I have some weanlings that ears do this when they get a bit warm. I was concerned b/c it didn't start doing it until after I tattoo'd them.... But then it cooled off for 2 days and her ears are fine.


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## HaloRabbits (May 30, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> Her ears have started to flopsie, not all the time and not always both at the same time.  Is there a reason for this?  Whatever, I think it is cute!


I have one who has some silly floppy-like ears as well. I do not know the reason. But I think I am going to keep her. 

@firedragon1982 maybe it's the heat for me as well? We are in NC. But I would think more of the kits would have the weird ear thing ahhah.


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## LocoYokel (May 30, 2017)

Sold 5 kits this past weekend, now I have the $ to get the proper wire for the floors in my hutches! 
Clawd and Suki-tu  @ 9 weeks:


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## HaloRabbits (May 30, 2017)

They're so cute! I love the different colors. I want more colors in my crew, so now I am breeding unusual colors together to see what I get haha. 
My main doe appears black but do to her eye color I know she is a self chin. AND she also hides steel. SO I am slowly learning more about her the more I breed her.


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## LocoYokel (Jun 14, 2017)

LocoYokel said:


> Captain's Log: Stardate Earth 05.26.17
> The Mothership Suki has been recommissioned and has began loading for her fourth mission. Fleet General FurNando is again supervising.
> 
> Outpost @animalmom's Chief Medical Officer is to be commended for their research of crew identification tags. This shall now be standard procedure at Starbase Barn.
> ...



Captain's Log: Stardate Earth 06.14.17
Mothership Suki was inspected by Chief Medical Officer on 06.09.17 and is reported to have added containers in her cargo bay.  She is scheduled to dock 06.26.17. We here at Starbase Barn are wishing her crew a safe landing.
Mothership Tilda is cleared to be restocked and sent on a new mission. Fleet General Furnando will again supervise the loading procedure.
Mothership Ella has been reconditioned after her last voyage but is not scheduled for a mission at this time.
The Starbase Barn crew is to be commended for restocking our supply planet Garden.  They are now scheduled to planet Flowerbed for reorganization drills. 
Congratulations to Jr. Doe Posey, Jr. Buck Bleu and Jr. Buck Creepy for their permanent placements as entertainment crew at Outpost Melanie and Outpost Melinda. Jr. Doe Posey is slated for advancement to Mothership next year.


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 15, 2017)

Love the name Bleu. Almost used that name a few weeks ago!


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## LocoYokel (Jun 16, 2017)

@HaloRabbits I like that name too. All the names came from the new owners. Those people came for a Flemish Giant X bunny and left with two, Bleu was in my meat rabbit litter and the daughter just fell in love with him first site.  We have been keeping in touch via email, it is neat to see the love and attention those bunz are getting!  
My Tilda likes to have those "blue" babies, last litter was a true blue, this time I thought blue but actually gold-tipped steel (?) with the blue eyes.  
Creepy is the REW FGX buck I thought about keeping but he went home with 7 yr. old twin boys who have special needs (Autism, ADHD)... again staying in touch with those folk.  In fact Creepy will be coming back for a visit while his family goes on vacation.  I guess the boys were having a fit about leaving him "home alone" even with a sitter... and they were the ones who thought of me, their Mom was quite surprised.  Makes me feel all "warm n fuzzy"!
Bleu:


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 17, 2017)

Super cool. I like to keep in touch with new owners as well. Most often its the people I sell/rehome horses too. I love to see how they are doing in their new homes. 

I hope my new blue doe gives us lots of blue babies! The doe I plan to breed her with has a 50% chance of carry blue since his mom carries it. She is still too young to breed as of right now, and he isn't proven yet so there are still a lot of "ifs".


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## LocoYokel (Jun 25, 2017)

Captain's Log: Stardate Earth 06.25.17
The Mothership Suki has landed a day early.  Of her nine new crew members six have survived to make it to port.  
The Suki's Chief Nutritionist has expressed some concerns over her minimal intake of pelleted fuel and liquid coolant. Fresh organic fuels have been requisitioned.  
We here at Starbase barn welcome the Suki's surviving crew members with great relief. 


 

(The lost crew: two fully developed brokens, one of which was still encased in placenta, and a peanut that looked half devoured. All three were to the front of the nest and buried under the straw.  Of the six remaining there are two brokens and 4 dark ones, color to be determined when they have hair...)


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## LocoYokel (Jun 26, 2017)

...and now I am worried about Suki's milk production...
The kits look OK this a.m. and Suki has been back in the box, she pulled more fur.  I'd like their bellies to be fuller, tho perhaps it's just me.  I have really stressed over this litter. Now that they are here guess my worries just took a new path.  I have to remember that she IS a first time doe, even tho this is her fourth breeding, and I need to take that into consideration.  As for me, trying not to peek too much and leave her be is not going well .  Glad she is a calm mama, so far...
She has really been off her feed.  This started about 3 weeks ago, 1 week into her pregnancy.  She hardly eats any pellets but does seem to nibble on her hay.  I put Calf Manna on top of her food (16% pellet in summer, 1 tsp CM dayly, grass hay, ACV H2O) but she doesn't seem to even want that.  Of course as soon as things got green I was feeding fresh nibblets to all... dandelion, raspberry leaf, bean leaf, handful of grass, the things I know are safe.  She eats that just fine. Perhaps she is just being picky? A bad tooth? Prenatal toxemia? (Do rabbits even get that?)
Her condition is good, bright eyes, dry nose, but her stool is a bit soft. I have blamed the fresh greens diet for that even tho I tried to go slow, after a winter with none I don't want upset tummies.
I have a "grazing cage" for the bunnies, maybe I should just set her out on the lawn a few times a day?  The meat rabbits only get picked up once every other month when I scrub hutches and when they get bred.  I don't want to stress her out with a new routine... 

I know I am stressed out, Suki really needs to raise this litter.  Egads, it's good to have a place to vent my worries!


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## LocoYokel (Jun 26, 2017)

Now there are seven live kits. With this hot weather I sure hope I didn't miss any more deceased... 
Yes, I went and peeked again. 
Looked up through the bottom of her hutch and I can see nipples! 
This made me look at the kits closer than I did at 7 a.m. and that's how the count rose.  Seems like I picked up one of the two runts when I checked them earlier, I only checked a few, more of a feel around for any lost ones.  The others look much fuller in the tummy than they do.
Now to leave them alone for a while, glad I work today...


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## animalmom (Jun 26, 2017)

Well done Suki!


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## LocoYokel (Jun 27, 2017)

HELP! @Bunnylady, @DutchBunny03, @Marie28, @Pastor Dave, @ALL of the rabbit smart folk here who I can not think of or do not know... Suki has completely stopped eating her pellets and the Calf Manna on top, 3 days ago. I attributed this to her near kindling but she still hasn't touched a thing. She now barely nibbles her grass hay but does consume the fresh stuff I am giving her.  Her water consumption over the past 24 hours has been  around a cup, perhaps a bit more.  She does show signs of nursing but the kits are not really "round".  I think I am going to lose this litter and perhaps the doe too. 
What amount of greens: a few raspberry leaves, some dandelion, a bit of bean leaves and mostly trimmed grass from the fenceline, should I give her?  Would some comfrey help?  I try to keep the medicinal type plants to a minimum.  Her stool is a bit soft right now. 
Should I even try? With all of the problems I have had with this doe I am thinking Mother Nature is talking... and I am hearing a big NO! 
Any help or ideas on how to help her and her kits would be greatly appreciated.  I will probably cull her now but it would be nice to give the kits a chance for pet homes. Not a line I want to continue...


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## Marie28 (Jun 27, 2017)

:[[ Not sure what you should do for your doe. Hopefully the other people you have tagged have some ideas. Have you tried hold her to let the kits nurse? or possibly giving them some replacement formula?  I'm assuming her poop is soft and lake of water drinking is because of the all the fresh stuff she is eating. Have your tried oats or BOSS? Maybe that will spark her interest. Hopefully the others can be more helpful.


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 27, 2017)

Yes, with the pelleted food she has a complete diet, but as long as she is eating the fresh food you know she isn't starving. I would continue to give her the fresh food and continue with the pellets, maybe she is just being picky. I have 1 or 2 that go "off feed" occasionally, but for me it has never lasted more than a couple days. 

Loose stool is probably because of the greens, I agree. A decrease in water, isn't good when you have a nursing mama, BUT it is not unusual when you have an increase in fresh foods. The fresh foods have water in them. Ex: I raise beetles who get 100% of their water from the carrots I put into their containers. Very efficient creatures. 

@Marie28 I agree, Oats may spark her interested. It will also add some calories if you are worried about that. 

The first time my doe kindled she had 11 and we lost 6! The second time she had 11 and we lost 2. This third time she had 8 and all are doing great! They learn with experience. But since you have had a lot of issues, culling seems like a reasonable option.


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## animalmom (Jun 27, 2017)

I offer rose leaves when I have a bun that isn't eating pellets.  I also put white Karo syrup in the water bottle.  Use just enough to make the water sweet.

I agree with the suggestion to try oats.  I use the "old-fashion" oatmeal... the kind you have to cook, not the instant stuff.


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## LocoYokel (Jun 27, 2017)

Marie28 said:


> Have your tried oats or BOSS?





HaloRabbits said:


> I agree, Oats may spark her interest





animalmom said:


> I agree with the suggestion to try oats





animalmom said:


> I offer rose leaves when I have a bun that isn't eating pellets.



Thank You!  I need to go to the feed store today, I will be picking up some oats and BOSS along with my other feed.  I didn't know about the rose leaves, she will be getting some.  I have over 20 roses, they can all have a bite!  (I don't use chemicals on them.) 
The kits looked about the same again this a.m.  She is going into the nest, more fur pulled. Her nipples are really showing now so they seem to be nursing.  It looked like she ate about 6 of the Calf Manna pellets but that is all.  Maybe I should offer the CM in a separate dish.
In the meantime I will continue clipping greens for her. The neighbors haven't mowed at all this year, I can sneak over there for grass...


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## LocoYokel (Jun 29, 2017)

Suki seems to be doing better. At least she is eating and drinking more, did lose one kit tho.  
The oats and BOSS really caught her interest.  Feeding that and the Calf Manna in a separate bowl and still giving handfuls of grass n greens 4-5 times a day. I also cleaned out her feeder (16%) and have went back to 18% pellets, the bit of $ I was saving on the bag was lost with the rabbits not liking it. 
Now Suki is doing something else I have never seen a rabbit do, she has two nests in her box. First time I noticed I just figured the lil' guys had crawled up front so I put them back into the kit pile at the rear of the box.  My mistake, every time I go out there some are in the back hollow, some in the front.  I have quit trying to keep them together.  
Mama Suki is definitely feeling better, she is getting aggressive with me so I'll only be making a daily head count from now on.


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## animalmom (Jun 29, 2017)

Prelims looking good for Suki.  I bet you are relieved and happy.


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## HaloRabbits (Jun 29, 2017)

Good to hear she is doing better!


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## Pastor Dave (Jun 30, 2017)

Mine get very few greens. I periodically give red clover and rose petals. I know they haven't built up to digesting greens, so I do not push the envelope. I always keep rolled oats on hand for loose stools or diarrhea, but seldom have to use it. 

Mine get grass hay every evening, and alfalfa pellets with 16% protein every morning. I also give calf mana and BOSS each morning. The domestic rabbits haven't developed to eat the same foods as their wild cousins. Some folks like to do an entire organic diet, but that takes time to adjust to. It has to be a slow process, with small quantities until they adjust. Mine will never be able to have large amounts of greens/fresh plants, and my juniors do not get fresh or green plants, etc.


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## Pastor Dave (Jun 30, 2017)

Oh, meant to comment on the two nests too. Mine do this more in the hot months than the winter. They do it on their own, and seem to be able to nurse easier spread out some, so as Mom jumps in they are more divided to her fore and rear teats.


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## LocoYokel (Jul 3, 2017)

Pastor Dave said:


> Mine get very few greens. I periodically give red clover and rose petals. I know they haven't built up to digesting greens, so I do not push the envelope.


I very rarely give fresh greens to mine but for a treat and that only in season.  When this doe quit eating altogether is when I really started introducing the greens to her and then still slowly.


Pastor Dave said:


> Oh, meant to comment on the two nests too. Mine do this more in the hot months than the winter. They do it on their own, and seem to be able to nurse easier spread out some, so as Mom jumps in they are more divided to her fore and rear teats.


O Thank You!  I was worried she was going to starve one end! I have seen litters spread out in the heat but never such young ones and never two such distinctive nests in one box.

The learning curve this doe has put me on is ridiculous!  Things were so much easier when I just went out and "fed 'em 'n bred 'em".  Gotta admit I am loving every minute of it, even those "frantic panic" modes.  To think of all the stress attacks I avoided in the past from being an uneducated rabbit breeder...
On that note I should mention that I removed another kit yesterday, failure to thrive.  The remaining five are some of the fattest and fastest growing kits I have ever seen.  Think I will keep pumpin' those dandelion leaves to Suki!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 4, 2017)

Pics when you get a moment!


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## LocoYokel (Jul 6, 2017)

Got a couple pics, glad I did... lost three more in the past two days.  I thought they were a bit sluggish on Tuesday but attributed it to the heat. 
 
The two closest to the camera are the two that are left.  I did see the wink of an eye today, hope these make it to weaning.


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 7, 2017)

Best of luck to you! I hopefully have a litter coming next week  it is a maiden doe so I have no clue what to expect from her.


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## LocoYokel (Jul 8, 2017)

Thank You @HaloRabbits, unfortunately a bit late.  Lost another one today and the last has diarrhea.  The previous four that I have lost over the past few days also had it but they were already deceased by the time I found them.  Thought it was just expulsion from the hot weather lately. Now I see it in a live kit.  I have checked the cocci idea but they seem too young, therefore I am blaming myself for somehow mismanaging the doe's diet.  I am sure that introducing and then reducing the greens I was giving her to get her to eat again, and the oats and BOSS going into her diet affected her milk somehow.  If not that then the doe was just not off her feed, she is sick and infected her kits.  
I don't know what to think right now...

Halo, I follow your thread, can't wait to see!  Need some good baby news 'round here.


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 8, 2017)

What is the cocci idea? 

I doubt the food change affected her milk, but I suppose it's possible. This was her first kindle correct? Do you go by the three strike rule?


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## LocoYokel (Jul 8, 2017)

HaloRabbits said:


> What is the cocci idea?



As this has been happening I noticed that although the kits had round bellies their hip bones were jutting out.  That got me started on bloat which led to gastroenteritis and Intestinal Coccidiosis... The more I researched the more confusing it all got.  The one thing that kept coming up consistently was the age of the kits, 4-5 weeks and up.  Mine were still nursing (eyes just opening, not out of box yet) and seemed too young.
(One of the sites: Read more at: https://www.vetary.com/rabbit/condition/coccidiosis)
As for the "three strikes rule" this is Suki's fourth time at bat... first litter last fall: born on the wire in unseasonable cold, lost all, second breeding: acted preggo all month, made a nest and never had a kit, third try: false pregnancy, pulled fur at two weeks and that was it.  This time at least she had kits and is trying to care for them but they are dropping like flies.
The last kit is still hangin' in there today.  Seems like all I can do now is watch and wait.  
My buck seems a bit thin to me but he is molting and none of the other rabbits are showing any signs of illness or stress, other than the 90+ temps. 
I usually try to not have litters in July/August because of the heat and Jan/Feb because of the cold.  Except for my house bun the rabbits are all in outdoor hutches.  This litter was poorly timed but I really wanted Suki to prove out.  I don't have the space for a non-producing doe.  Losing the kits like this is making me nutz!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 10, 2017)

Oh okay. Awe man, did you have her mother? Was she a good producer? Have you found that is genetic? My older doe Tres is the first doe we got, now I have her babies from a couple different litters and another around the same age that I am raising for producers, here's to hoping they are good producers!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 10, 2017)

Also, how is the last baby doing?


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## LocoYokel (Jul 10, 2017)

Suki was given to me by an old farmer friend, along with Ma'Tilda and Fur'Nando.  He told me she was a Checkered Giant and even after years of rabbits I had no clue that wasn't her breed.  We have always raised meatmutts and never cared much.  I have since found out that she is NZ with maybe a 1/4 Checkered, her breeder (not the old farmer, I tracked down the other guy thru him) could not remember but that is what he has and how he mixes them for his meat program.  His grandkids show the pure breed CG's and NZ's, so she could be full blooded too.  She seems awful big to me to be full NZ tho, but what do I know...   
(That's all I know about her previous life, she came to me as a 2 yr old unproven doe.  Do you still call them 'junior doe' when they are that old but have never had a litter?  Heavy sigh, something else I don't know...)
Anyways, pics!  I just love the tiny feet in the last one. 


Fifteen days old, still hangin' in there... 

So tiny...
Lunch time...

I took the box out today.  It is a few days early but the kit won't stay in it and I think it is getting more to eat out on the wire with mom.  Put a nice big mat of the cruddy hay I got last week (half straw , glad I only got two bales) in for some cush.  Suki is enjoying the seed heads on it! She seems to have come out of her slump and is being a good mamabun.  Since she only has the one nursing I am sure there is plenty of milk, hopefully the lil' one will gain fast. 
Whatever caused it - that bloat/diarrhea sure wiped out this litter.  Suki was off her feed but not _*that* _sick, at least it didn't seem so? 
At least this kit survived it's bout with the stuff.
I am still unsure about culling her, especially now that she has a live kit.  Maybe her run of bad luck is over... sure hope so, for my sake!


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 12, 2017)

No, they are no longer Juniors at that age, just unproven. Some people say maiden does as well. 
It isn't too early to remove the box, I believe most people remove between 14-18 days. I am glad it is doing well, and it is SO CUTE! It looks a lot like mommy!


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## LocoYokel (Jul 21, 2017)

On July 13 the wee one got the 'runny bottoms' again. I was sure I would lose it this time but after two days of being lethargic then it was back to right again.  Again on the 18th, yellow sticky poo and huddled in a corner.  By yesterday it was frisky again...

I keep putting off taking pics because I keep thinking "Today it will be gone."  Every morning it is still hangin' in there.  It makes me feel bad that I can't help it more but Suki is doing a super job under the circumstances. She lets it nurse all the time, she has a ledge where she could get away but she hasn't used it much since I took the nest box out, like she knows the kit needs extra care.  She keeps it very clean too, it is odd to see a doe act like a mama cat but she sure is doing a good imitation!  
The kit is 27 days old today but extremely small.  I doubt it will ever get very big with all of the health issues at such a young age so if it survives it will be a "pet only" bun.   
(Charging the phone/cam, I will get pics today.)


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 21, 2017)

Glad to hear it is doing well!


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## LocoYokel (Jul 22, 2017)

4 weeks old today:

   
Eyeliner, brows, perfect lil' bow over the nose: This kit is too cute... it has to find a 'pet life'!  

Clawdya and Shydoe are getting big!
4 months old: 
I can really see the Flemish Giant in Clawdya, (fawn) especially the head.  Both girls have totally outgrown the meatmutts born a week earlier. It is time to start harvesting those, I will be keeping better records on weight and gain from here on out.....


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 23, 2017)

Oh they are all so cute! I am so glad to see that the little kit is still doing well. Cute names too


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## LocoYokel (Jul 26, 2017)

Lost the kit.
No sign of runny bottom, was doing OK and nibbling hay yesterday evening.  

It's time to get another litter started, I think Ella this time.  I want to see if her kits by FurNando gain faster than
Tilda's kits by him.  DH will have to supervise this time.  Put my back out a few days ago and the rabbits are too heavy for me to lift.  

If it's not one thing then it's another: Life and times of a barn mother.


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## HaloRabbits (Jul 27, 2017)

I am sorry to hear that. I hope you heal quickly!


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## Pastor Dave (Jul 27, 2017)

Unproven does are so unpredictable. Sometimes milk doesn't come in at first, and a litter dwindles down. Generally if that happens once, rebreeding quickly will get the hormones engaged and the milk will come in better next time. Sometimes the genetics weren't right to start with and kits fail to thrive. All you can do is make sure her nutrition is good and protein is up for breeding and nursing.

One other thing I thought of is the heat you were mentioning. If it gets over 86-87 degs in my rabbit shed, I introduce frozen 2 liter water bottles to each bunny. It gets hotter in the nest boxes and they will smother, so I place a 1 liter bottle in those.

Maybe you already do all that. I wouldn't count her kindle on the wire as a strike, or the couple times she didn't get bred. If anything, this time could be strike 1, but in the end it's a gut call you have to make.


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## LocoYokel (Aug 13, 2017)

My computer deleted all of my calendar notes during an update.  Thank goodness I have most of it here!  Back to keeping "hard copy" records.


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