# Doe head-butting and rearing up - stop playful behavior?



## Kristi (Jan 13, 2014)

We just got our first goats yesterday and already I have a behavior question, lol!  They are two alpine does, both bred (a month or less ago), both on their third freshening.  Twin sisters, very attached to each other.  They've been hand milked (no stanchion), and are used to collars/leashes. 

They seem a little nervous, but then it's only been a day or so, and they had a 2 hr ride to get here.  Neither seems overly interested in being petted, but will take treats from us, and allow a little petting.  One is calmer than the other. 

My question:  Sister #2 (still deciding on names) will head-butt and rear up pretty frequently.  I think she's playing, or trying to engage us in play.  But the children are kinda scared of her, and I want to know how to train her to stop these behaviors.  DH says that when we grab her collar, or put a leash on it, she calms down.  I'm not sure I've seen that, but I'm prob busy herding my kids out of the area.  Unfortunately, she seems to target the kids, I think.  Not totally sure about that, since it's only been a day.

Previous owners sold them primarily because of this behavior, I think.  I don't know if they tried to do anything about it, or just tolerated it.

Anyway, I've searched the forums and am thinking that only DH and I should go in their pen for now, and try squirting her with water when she rears up, saying "NO", and deflecting her away from us when she tries to head-butt.  I know not to push against her head, since this is engaging the behavior.

Will these techniques work?  Any other ideas?  Is it possible to train her out of this?


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## cindyg (Jan 14, 2014)

My pygmy wether does the rearing up thing, or did when he first got here, he doesn't try it with me any more because I either smack his nose or flick his ear if he does.  I wouldn't let them get away with it at all, it isn't "playing", it's asserting.  It may stop as she gets used to you and her new home, but especially with kids, and, is she horned? it could lead to injuries.  A spray bottle could work, as well and that is something the kids could carry with them.


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## taylorm17 (Jan 14, 2014)

how old are the kids. Are the does dehorned. My goat was bottle fed and after she was taken off the bottle she would nibble and when she got older she would bite your fingers or your pants. If you get the chance flick her hard in the ear or the nose. It took my goat 3-4 flicks to figure out that 'game' wasn't going to be fun anymore. You should be able to get her out of it. She may also be nervous. The water may also work too. That is what we did when our cats get up of the counter or table we would squirt them with water, but those are cats. She might also just be moody depending on how far in the pregnancy she is or kind of nervous if she is close to due and in a new home.


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## Kristi (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for the ideas.  The does are both dehorned.  Since that first day or two, she has calmed down a lot.  But then again, the children (ages 5-11, she's butted them all) have stopped going in the fenced area where they are.  Just me and my 11yo DD, who's almost as big as I am. 

I haven't had to use the water.  She hasn't reared up or head butted all week.  I've been taking them a pocketful of treats every day, and only giving them one if they are calm and let me pet them.  Maybe she was just really nervous, then there were a bunch of us (5 kids, DH and me) swarming around.  But I do know the previous owners sold them because of this behavior vs wanting their little kids to be able to handle the goats. 

She was bred 12/27, so not very far along.

Funny how their individual personalities are showing up.  The 'calm one' (we're still deciding on names) will steal treats right out of the head-butting one's mouth!  And she's the one who nudges her way out of the gate most often.  Ha.  It's the quiet ones! 

Actually, they're both really quiet - no noises at all.  Except today I heard a super super quiet 'maa' from one, when the other had escaped and wasn't back in yet.  Is it unusual for alpines to be so quiet?  (not complaining!)


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## jodief100 (Jan 17, 2014)

They are working out the new herd hierarchy and you are the new herd members.


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## elevan (Jan 17, 2014)

jodief100 said:


> They are working out the new herd hierarchy and you are the new herd members.


Exactly.

The flicking the nose or the ear will work to stop the behavior.  My preferred method is the pinch their shoulder...goats will bite each other and a pinch is similar to that.  I don't believe that the spray bottle works on goats, jmho.  You have to assert yourself as the herd leader and you kids and DH must be top of the herd as well...they each have to assert themselves otherwise your new goats are above them in the herd and that's not a good situation.  My youngest boy would run from our goats or squeal when they came near him, so our herd queen would give chase and butt him in the rear sending him face first into the dirt.  While it was admittedly amusing, it could have turned into a dangerous situation.   Think like a goat, not a human


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## laceydlauren (Feb 18, 2014)

We have this problem with 2 does we have only had a few weeks now. They've started to settle in and are head butting A LOT! One of them is due to kid soon so I understand her behavior, but the other is a yearling and what I first thought was play has turned out to be pure meanness. She's mostly directing it towards my 2 year old daughter, who now has bruises all over her faces and upper body from horns. I try to get there in time and usually do. She's terrified of them now. Not what we were going for with backyard pygmys! We love them, but now I'm wondering if we should get some that are dehorned before we get too much more attached. I've been grabbing horns and twisting them until it hurts a little, then letting go. I didn't want to be mean at first but now they are hurting my kids!! I guess that was the wrong thing to do. I'll start pinching shoulders, flicking ears and smacking noses.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2014)

laceydlauren said:


> We have this problem with 2 does we have only had a few weeks now. They've started to settle in and are head butting A LOT! One of them is due to kid soon so I understand her behavior, but the other is a yearling and what I first thought was play has turned out to be pure meanness. She's mostly directing it towards my 2 year old daughter, who now has bruises all over her faces and upper body from horns. I try to get there in time and usually do. She's terrified of them now. Not what we were going for with backyard pygmys! We love them, but now I'm wondering if we should get some that are dehorned before we get too much more attached. I've been grabbing horns and twisting them until it hurts a little, then letting go. I didn't want to be mean at first but now they are hurting my kids!! I guess that was the wrong thing to do. I'll start pinching shoulders, flicking ears and smacking noses.


 
With children that young I would keep a baby from this doe and bottle raise it, disbud it, and sell the others. Horns and children have no place in the same barn yard. JMHO


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## laceydlauren (Feb 18, 2014)

That thought has crossed my mind. It breaks my heart to think about. First pulling a kid from mama is something I'm not sure I can do. Maybe I can start time-sharing and partially bottle feeding after a while, though. I think I would be okay with that. After seeing how much they use their horns for things that seems kind of mean also. I'm soft-hearted, I know.  See my dilemma? lol Conflicting feelings.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2014)

well I do see your dilemma and I agree with the bottle raising thing. If you spend ALOT of time with the kids when they are tiny you can most likely get a friendly goat without bottle raising.

Now the horns...I don't agree at all. I have both horned and disbudded. The disbudded don't get the head stuck in fences, they don't smash my fingers between their horns and the collar, and they don't poke me or their herd mates with horns. Somewhere on this site I read just the other day that there was a goat actually killed by horns of another goat.  Horns have to go.

I also had a horned goat hook her horn through the collar of her sister and probably would have killed her if I had not been in the field at the time.


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## Womwotai (Feb 18, 2014)

My experience with goats is minimal so take this as you will but perhaps some of it depends on breed?  My two goats (pair) are Boer.  The horns curve backward and are not as severe as pics of some breeds I have seen.  They don't use them as weapons - ever.  They do, however use them to scratch their backs.  I would not consider disbudding them and would rather they have the horns to use as a defense towards a potential predator, than leave them defenseless.

I tend to lean towards "raising on mama" is better than "raising on formula" myself.  Having friendly, handleable goats/sheep is certainly a consideration however.  Right now I am trying to get the best of both worlds.  I had a ewe lamb 6 days ago and another this morning.  Each morning I am giving the ewes a little grain, figuring the extra calories will help them out while they produce milk.  While the ewe is engrossed in eating her grain, I pick up her lamb and hold it for the duration, constantly talking to and stroking it, touching it all over.  My hope is that they will become used to being handled so that even though they are "mama raised" they will wind up more easily handled than their totally mama raised parents.  Time will tell.


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## babsbag (Feb 18, 2014)

I think that they extra handling will pay off, but just for information, if you ever get an orphan goat raise them on whole cow's milk from the store, not any of the replacer garbage that is out there. They will do just fine.

The horns on a boer are different and they do use them differently. But it was a boer that got her horn stuck in the collar and they still pinch my fingers. But the horns make good steering wheels too. My dairy stock would be vicious with horns, I have no doubt. But the boer can still stick you in the leg when they are trying to get around you. I tend to use my body as a blocking device at times and it can hurt. I don't perceive it as being mean, they just have horns. Plain and simple.

4h market wethers at our fair and ADGA dairy stock have to be disbudded to be shown, there is a reason for that. The dairy is mean, and the market wethers are  shown by children.


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## taylorm17 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think it can go either way. Goats that are dam raised can be better than some who are bottle raised. You can have a dam raised goat and you play with the kid everyday. I am not against bottle raising or anything, but would only do it if the mom is a bad mom or she rejects a kid or the kid is not strong enough to live outside with its mom. If the dam is a mean goat, she may not let you near the kid a lot so I might bottle raise it. Aso a dam can kind of 'teach' her kid bad habits and mean habits too! It all depends on how you would prefer and the circumstances you are in.

As of horns, I am also not against horns, but prefer not to have any. Depending on your fencing and the horn shape, they can get stuck in fencing. Mean goats can cause a lot of damage to other goats if they use them as weapons. Others are fine with horns and are as nice as can be. It al depends on preference and some other variables.

Also wanted to add that some bottle raised babies who are ONLY around people and not goats can think they are people and be 'socially awkward' for a while with other goats. Also since a mom will kind of regulate a goats eating, when they take a bottle it is all at once, so sometimes it takes them a while to figure out how to eat like a GOAT not a HUMAN! haha. If they are stil with other goats, but are bottle fed, it is different. A mother would teach a kid feeding habits and how to be a goat.


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## Pioneer Chicken (Feb 20, 2014)

taylorm17 said:


> I think it can go either way. Goats that are dam raised can be better than some who are bottle raised. You can have a dam raised goat and you play with the kid everyday. I am not against bottle raising or anything, but would only do it if the mom is a bad mom or she rejects a kid or the kid is not strong enough to live outside with its mom. If the dam is a mean goat, she may not let you near the kid a lot so I might bottle raise it. Aso a dam can kind of 'teach' her kid bad habits and mean habits too! It all depends on how you would prefer and the circumstances you are in.
> 
> As of horns, I am also not against horns, but prefer not to have any. Depending on your fencing and the horn shape, they can get stuck in fencing. Mean goats can cause a lot of damage to other goats if they use them as weapons. Others are fine with horns and are as nice as can be. It al depends on preference and some other variables.
> 
> Also wanted to add that some bottle raised babies who are ONLY around people and not goats can think they are people and be 'socially awkward' for a while with other goats. Also since a mom will kind of regulate a goats eating, when they take a bottle it is all at once, so sometimes it takes them a while to figure out how to eat like a GOAT not a HUMAN! haha. If they are stil with other goats, but are bottle fed, it is different. A mother would teach a kid feeding habits and how to be a goat.



My thoughts exactly!  

IMHO, if I had young children, I wouldn't be having horned goats.  The possibility of having an accident would just be too great.  The child might do something to upset the goat and, in self-defense, the goat might use its horns to butt off the child as an instantaneous thing.  If the goat is just mean-tempered towards children, then it makes for a more sticky situation where your child could get badly hurt.  Your child's safety is more important than the goat.   You've said that your child has already been head-butted and bruised by your goat. I would honestly rehome the goat and find some disbudded/polled (naturally dehorned) stock so that you don't have to worry about your child getting seriously hurt and so everyone's happy the world around.


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## taylorm17 (Feb 20, 2014)

Good one. We have 5 children in our family including myself and all of pur goats will be polled or we would have them disbudded before coming onto our property.


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## mystry (Jul 20, 2015)

taylorm17 said:


> Good one. We have 5 children in our family including myself and all of pur goats will be polled or we would have them disbudded before coming onto our property.


I thought I read somewhere that if you bred two polled goats then there is a birth defect that you get?  Can't remember exactly?  Maybe it was just one breed?


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## Bunnylady (Jul 20, 2015)

I've heard that there is a higher chance of getting a hermaphrodite (an animal with both male and female characteristics) when breeding polled to polled, but it doesn't happen every time, and it can happen when one or both parents aren't polled, too.


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