# Question about blood on end of nubby after disbudding



## nifftiness (Apr 10, 2011)

My husbands disbudded quite a few kids and weve never had a problem. But Im concerned about one that was done today. He has the perfect copper ring around both nubs and the one is dry like its supposed to be, but the other one.... is wet looking and it looks like blood is IN the nubby.  Like what a blood blister looks like kind of. But its in the hard part of his nub. Im scared to touch it or anything.  It was don this morning and this evening its still looking wet around it, like its leaking clear liquide? Im wondering if I should be doing anything to avoid a infection. Im also confused about the blood. I thought that since the ring cuts off the blood supply their shouldnt be any blood. Any advice on if I should do anything or just leave it? I sprayed it with Bactroban, Its all i had on hand I could think of using.  He had some hay in the weepy looking part so I sprayed with the Bactroban in hopes to keep it clean. If anyone has any advise or similar expieriences let me know. Thanks for listening


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## PattySh (Apr 11, 2011)

I usually burn the top of the nubbin with the iron  and the top (skin)comes right off.  I haven't had bleeding. I did do a bucking at a week old last year for a friend tho and he started oozing alot of clear fluid so much that I panicked and stopped. I offered to redo him a week later but my friend didn't have the heart so his horns grew in. They are not scurs but true horns. Not sure what caused the oozing but he was younger than mine when I do them. I think your little guy should be just fine, probably smart to have sprayed him with antiseptic, I'd watch for regrowth just incase.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 11, 2011)

nifftiness said:
			
		

> I thought that since the ring cuts off the blood supply their shouldnt be any blood.


Hacking a t-bone off a steer also cuts off blood supply, yet when I grill one medium rare, it bleeds bright red blood all up in my garlic mashed potatoes.  Doesn't mean the t-bone is still living tissue, or that it would grow back into a new steer if you left it alone or packed it in furazone....just means there was blood *in it* when it got hacked off.

Having said that, are you *absolutely sure* you got a good copper ring all the way around?  If so, this is probably just blood that was left in the horn bud and will dry up in the next very little bit..  

I've seen them rub their lil nubs bloody after burning copper rings around them..  Haven't noticed it making any difference in terms of horn/scur regrowth.

My other thought -- or perhaps I should say, what I suspect to be the case here -- is that you got a partial burn *through* the skin down to the skull..  I've seen them bleed and weep (and become infected) when I've accidentally burned through..  Usually in those cases, what I'll see is a mostly-copper ring with a white 'crescent' of bone...oops.


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## nifftiness (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks for the replys. Its looking much better today. Their is a perfect ring all the way around, no bone showing. Iv seen that a few times also, and that doesnt worry me, it always heals up.  Im not worried about the horn growing, (Ill go knock on wood :O) Just more of a infection. But today  I cant see the blood and it looks dry now. What ever it was must have all leaked out. I think your right about the blood having been in their already and got seared in I guess. Im going to keep an eye on it, make sure hes keeping it clean. But so far so good.  Thanks again for the advice, Iv never had a infection in any of my goats yet and hes so small I got a little panicky.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 11, 2011)

nifftiness said:
			
		

> Iv never had a infection in any of my goats yet and hes so small I got a little panicky.


I have!  And it sucked!  Bad!  

Worse for the goat than for me, of course, but it was pretty rough on me..  Didn't really notice it until she was kinda standin around a little head-hangy, actin kinda off..  Guarded, more than anything..  Wouldn't go near the other goats..  I picked her up and noticed the skin around the ring was a little swollen, so I did what anybody would have done...I pressed on it.   

Mmmmyeah, she squalled like a mashed monkey and tried *really hard* to flail her way out of my grip.  

So then I did the next thing anybody would have done...I smelled it.  Cue the green wavy lines wafting into the air and sound of fog horn from back the days when cartoons were still blunt enough to be funny.

So then I did a few things that probably not everyone would have done, but should have...  I got a rag, soaked it in some warm soapy water, and scrubbed the nasty spot RAW.  Like, freshly bleeding raw..  Hair?  Slipped right off about 1/2" to the *outside* of the burn ring..  And then I squoze again until the stuff that came out was just clear or bloody..  Basically, a performed a "wound reboot."



Then I had to cover her eyes and take a 1ml syringe full of 7% iodine and drip...drip...drip it into the freshly re-gaped hole until it wouldn't take anymore.  She kinda went limp at a point...pretty sure she almost passed out.

No, that's not an exaggeration.  And, no, it's not the only time I've had a goat pass out on me.  Yes, really.

But ya know what??...the very next day, the wound was closed, dried, the swelling was *gone* and she was back to being a bouncy jumpy crazy kid again.

So...a big deal?  Not really...not for someone who can differentiate between compassion and sympathy, anyway.  

Would it have been a big deal if I were first starting out and hadn't become relatively accustomed to having to do such cruel, mean, ugly things to goats?  Uh, YA...I'd have been sick to my stomach to have to do all that when I first started out..

That's also why I never, ever, ever recommend the 'white ring' method of disbudding -- too much unnecessary risk of infection.


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## nifftiness (Apr 11, 2011)

Lol, I got a chuckle reading your last add.  Especialy reading about you smelling it. Totaly the first thing Id do to. Im pritty squimish about that sorta thing, but at the same time have no problem with having to do something like draining a infection if it needs being done. Iv had to do that on my dogs paw once. Something about how small Pygmy kids are gets me. Their so tiny its easy to forget how risilient they are. 
What is the white ring method? Im hoping its not what Im thinking, thought Id ask. 
Oh and one more question, You put that you scrubbed the nasty spot raw, Is that to get rid of any infected skin? Im pritty new to this stuff.


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## cmjust0 (Apr 12, 2011)

nifftiness said:
			
		

> What is the white ring method? Im hoping its not what Im thinking, thought Id ask.


Yeah, it's what you think...  White = bone.  Some folks even go so far as to burn a white ring and then scoop the entire horn bud out with a knife.  

I say that increases the risk of infection, since you're breaking skin..  They say it doesn't...but are sure to point out that they're using a *sterilized* knife to scoop out the but and not, say, a frozen dog turd or something equally pointy and bacteria laden.  Why the precaution of sterilizing the knife if white-ringin' it truly doesn't heighten the risk of infection, I'm not sure..  And how they sterilize the goat's entire environment afterward to prevent it from becoming infected?...also not sure.

To each their own, I suppose.



> Oh and one more question, You put that you scrubbed the nasty spot raw, Is that to get rid of any infected skin? Im pritty new to this stuff.


Basically, pink is generally indicative of healthy tissue.  Any other color is probably....um....well, *not.*  Could be infection, or dead skin, or dried up pus, or scabs, or debris like dirt and dust trapped in dried fluid, or just whatever...  So my thinking is that if I scrub a nasty, infected area down to the point that it's pink, I'm probably looking at healthy tissue and I can evaluate the wound pretty much as though it *just* happened...which is always the best time to catch a wound.  Hence my having called it a 'wound reboot.'  

When you go about it that way, it doesn't matter whether it looked bad but was secretly healing, or looked ok but was secretely festering...I'm just rebooting it and starting over.  It's kinda just easier because there's less guesswork afterward, which also tends to make the outcome a little more predictable..

Not saying it's the right way to go about it, but I can tell you that if you showed up at the ER with a festering wound, the very first thing they're going to do is 'debride' it to see what they're working with....and it's not going to be a pleasant experience!


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## SDGsoap&dairy (Apr 12, 2011)

cmjust0 said:
			
		

> nifftiness said:
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There's no scooping.  The horn bud just sort of wipes off with the edge of the iron.  Everything is cauterized, just the same as with the "copper ring" method.  Although I wasn't involved directly, this whole discussion got pretty ugly before and I think unnecessarily.  I'm not going to advocate one method over another, but I do ask that we play nice folks.


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## PattySh (Apr 12, 2011)

I had my  first kids done by guy who has a large goat operation. I noticed immediately that he had bone showing on 2 of them. I panicked a tad but they were ok, I did put antiseptic on them. Thats when I decided to do my own. The only time I use the iron on the top of the horn bud is when it has grown larger than usual and generally on a buckling.  Generally only do the copper ring. This year so far they all look like I got them ok, no signs of any growing back. I hate dehorning but feel it's a necessary evil. I own one horned goat and am very glad I don't have several. She is always catching me in the hand with her horn, nothing intentional but ouch! My daughter's new nigerian buckling also has horns but he will be little so not too worried, he was too old when I bought him to do them.


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## Our7Wonders (Apr 12, 2011)

I attempted my first disbudding this past weekend and I went in to it feeling fairly confident -read just about every thread on disbudding on this forum, watched every youtube video on it, and followed several links to articles about it.

It was our doeling.  Did the first side - about 7ish seconds.  Let it rest for a long time.  Then did the other side, 7ish seconds again.  It didn't appear that I had a perfect copper ring, so went back to the first side to hit it again.  This time 5 seconds.  And then we hit white.  There went all my condfidence, right down the drain.  I freaked.  And it bled.  We put pressure on it for a bit and it stopped.  But I still had the unfinished other side and I was trembling at that point.  I did it again, but only for 3 seconds.  It didn't get white.  But I'm not confident that I got it good enough either.  I've been checking her daily for any signs of issues/tenderness/infection.  She seems fine so far, but I'll be watching her closely.  I'm a little gun shy to attempt it again.  

I sure wish there was a perfect step-by-step how to video or something.  I didn't find it a horribly unsettling as some have mentioned on here - until that second burn.  Now I'm afraid to try again.  I have 2 bucklings that I know are going to need to be burned again - they couldn't get them done right the first time.  I figured I'd attempt that after a few weeks, but not sure I can muster up the courage now.

Goats, the longer I have them the more difficult I think they become!


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## cmjust0 (Apr 13, 2011)

Yep...it SUCKS.  I've found that it helps a lot to use alcohol for disbudding.

As in, a few shots of it for the unlucky person who had to disbud ASAP after the job is done.


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## RabbleRoost Farm (Apr 13, 2011)

Geez, don't scare me off getting my little guy done! 
I'm worried his horn buds are getting too big, but he gets it done tomorrow so hopefully everything works out.

The original date didn't work because the disbudding iron was broken. Held together with electrical tape and popsicle sticks broken. Yeah. Why didn't she try to fire it up before I got all the way out there? *sigh*

I know I _could_ do it myself, but I'm worried over doing it.
Sort of like I'm worried about using the Burdizzo tool to crunch him. I call it The Eunuch Maker...

Like 7Wonders said, it seems like it gets harder the longer you have them!


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