# Goats and dog collars



## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

I am in the VERY EARLY stages of introducing (just planning and dreaming right now) goats on my place. And, like many, I am pondering the possibilities of fencing. I am considereng Nigerian dwarfs, and would like to rotate their browsing. But this early in the game, don't want to pop for "permanent" fencing in 3 or 4 different locations. I've already had panels suggested, and will probably go that route at first.
BUT THE REASON FOR THIS POST is something I just saw. I have a neighbor about 3 miles from me who has 2 goats. I know he has goats because I saw them standing about 3 ft from a major highway, no fence. And I thought "he's got escape artists". Well, it seems each time I travel to town, I see these goats standing on the side of the road. Now I never met him, and I didn't want to just stop by and ask if he had a goat escape problem. But I was talking to another neighbor, and mentioned it. He told me that the guy had an underground dog fence, and the goats wore shock collars. And as far as he knew, the owner never had a problem with the goats getting out.
Hmmmmm. I already have the underground dog fence for my dog, and it works wonderfully. Even at full gallop after a critter or her favorite toy, she abruptly pulls up short of her "learned" limit. The company even makes a "stubborn" collar for particularly strong willed dogs. Anybody got experience trying this method? I know the routine for properly training my dog to the system. Just wondering if it's feasible for dwarf goats (there will only be two. Period.)


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## Baymule (Dec 31, 2019)

It doesn't keep predators out.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

My guess (having nigerian dwarf goats) is a shock collar would have to be really snug to give the goat a shock.....and once shocked, I think ithey would keep on moving. Doubt that system would work very well for you.....we use break away collars in case they get hung up on something,. Neighbor found one of their goats hung by the regular collar on  the wall hay rack.... and the electric underground fence won't  protect them from predators.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 31, 2019)

My concern:  Goats will be a target for predators.  Fences give a bit of protection for them - shock collars don't.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

Well, lots of concern about predators. Cautious, but not overly so. We don't have "lions and tigers and bears, oh my". Not even coyotes (yet, anyhow). Dogs? Haven't seen a dog except mine in the 11 months I've been here, and MY dog (not a LGD) is fiercely protective of her area and her pets. Haven't seen any tracks, etc of coons, possums, or bobcats. She's outside unless we go below 30f, which is rare here.
Heck, I think I'll just get two cheap brier goats and give it a try. The collars are cheap. Don't want to write off any animal as "expendable", but lets face it. $20 brier goats are about as expendable as it comes, to try out a new system. They make it a year, and go to the freezer farm anyhow.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

When you set food out, something will come around to eat it...it's  hard to not get attached to any animal, $20 or$1500, ....it's  still a heartbreaking sight to see a animal attacked by another, 
Had a neighborhood cat that wasn't  afraid of dogs...until a pack of dogs came through , and disemboweled  him before I could run to save him....then went through the woods and did the same thing to three goats...
Not looking for a argument,  but you asked for advice and got the BEST advice from experienced  people....
Just doesn't  seem fair to the goats at all


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Not looking for a argument,  but you asked for advice and got the BEST advice from experienced  people....
> Just doesn't  seem fair to the goats at all


@B&B Happy goats. I am sorry to upset you. Not my plan at all. I guess I sound callous, but just wasn't raised to think of animals as "pets" or anything close to that. Taught farm animals were like tools. Take as good care of them as you can, but if they break, just suck it up and get another.
I knew better than to put that in my post, because it might upset people. Dummy me. I'll be more careful in the future with how I say things.
And the advice IS (REALLY) appreciated! Even when I don't listen, I read and think about everything everyone says on here. YOU GUYS are the experts. I'm just a novice feeling my way along.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> @B&B Happy goats. I am sorry to upset you. Not my plan at all. I guess I sound callous, but just wasn't raised to think of animals as "pets" or anything close to that. Taught farm animals were like tools. Take as good care of them as you can, but if they break, just suck it up and get another.
> I knew better than to put that in my post, because it might upset people. Dummy me. I'll be more careful in the future with how I say things.
> And the advice IS (REALLY) appreciated! Even when I don't listen, I read and think about everything everyone says on here. YOU GUYS are the experts. I'm just a novice feeling my way along.


Will reply when we back from the dr.....


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## Bunnylady (Dec 31, 2019)

I'm down to 1 very elderly goat now, but have had as many as 5 at once. 2x4 welded wire, 4 feet high, to keep the goats in, and a hot wire at shoulder height (to the goats) to keep them from rubbing, climbing, and breaking down the welded wire - that's the only effective confinement I have managed. At times, we have tried to fence off part of their pen with hot wire to allow grass to grow or for some other reason. Inevitably, my goats have found a way around or through - I've seen them charge the wire, scream as it shocks them running through, and keep going. One  time, I saw one on the wrong side of the fence, and yelled at her. She started to run back where she belonged, but when she hit the wire, it shocked her hard enough that she fell down -on top of the wire. As long as she was down, the wire was too, so she wasn't getting shocked, but every time she tried to stand up, the wire came with her, so it shocked her, she screamed, and fell down again. I had to sprint to the barn and turn the fence off so she could get off of it. 

Pointy headed problem children.


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## Beekissed (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> Well, lots of concern about predators. Cautious, but not overly so. We don't have "lions and tigers and bears, oh my". Not even coyotes (yet, anyhow). Dogs? Haven't seen a dog except mine in the 11 months I've been here, and MY dog (not a LGD) is fiercely protective of her area and her pets. Haven't seen any tracks, etc of coons, possums, or bobcats. She's outside unless we go below 30f, which is rare here.
> Heck, I think I'll just get two cheap brier goats and give it a try. The collars are cheap. Don't want to write off any animal as "expendable", but lets face it. $20 brier goats are about as expendable as it comes, to try out a new system. They make it a year, and go to the freezer farm anyhow.



If you've got a good dog patrolling the same territory, I don't see a thing wrong with trying it out....especially when you've seen it successfully in action.  

When I was growing up, many people just stuck a billy goat out on a tether in the yard and moved it around where they needed brush or grass mowed down that was hard to get a mower into.    Never heard of any horror stories about it.  My uncle had a big ol' billy goat he tethered out for years around his pond....and he didn't have dogs running loose to guard it from harm or any fencing around his land either.   It could take care of itself just fine.  

Those miniature goats wouldn't be as successful at that, but with your dog guarding them, I don't see where there would be a problem.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

When I buy, breed or keep any animal , I am responsible  for its  life....even if the end result is for it to be put in the freezer I care for it till it's  time to process. ..
.Feed, ...clean water and fencing are all necessary to protect our animals, and keep them in a safe area......
owning animals , domestic or farm, foul or fish, all require a proper environment  to thrive.....
you can't  keep a fish alive if it doesn't  have water, and you will never keep goats alive without fencing.....
I understand you are learning, I learn things every day too....
be kind to you animals , forget the old way ....they are not farm tools...they ARE the farm, and you are their keeper. 
Have a Happy New Year with your farming adventure..............Barb


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## Mini Horses (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> there will only be two. Period.)


     Let's count in a year.


That said -- I truly understand the concerns about our animals BUT,  I'd say buy and see.  I know some who tie out and put in safe pen/barn at night and when not watching to be sure no attack or tangles.   Goats don't feel electric the way horses do.  So be prepared for that.  Get the heavy hit collar.  Personality wise, some are more sensitive than others.  I have one doe that I could literally turn loose and she'd stay where she belonged.  Another that you would want to hogtie.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

[QUOTE="Beekissed, post: 633508, member: 79]
.  My uncle had a big ol' billy goat he tethered out for years around his pond....and he didn't have dogs running loose to guard it from harm or any fencing around his land either.   It could take care of itself just fine.

[/QUOTE]

Ohhhhh. I don't DARE!! First, I'd be untangling them every 5 minutes (really brushy). But more importantly, if I suggested I was going to tether my goats, I'd probably be banned from BYH.  Shhhhhh.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 31, 2019)

B&B Happy goats said:


> they are not farm tools...they ARE the farm


Amen sistah!


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> [QUOTE="Beekissed, post: 633508, member: 79]
> .  My uncle had a big ol' billy goat he tethered out for years around his pond....and he didn't have dogs running loose to guard it from harm or any fencing around his land either.   It could take care of itself just fine.



Ohhhhh. I don't DARE!! First, I'd be untangling them every 5 minutes (really brushy). But more importantly, if I suggested I was going to tether my goats, I'd probably be banned from BYH.  Shhhhhh.
[/QUOTE]
Lol, if the guy down the street uses the underground dog fence, and you see his goats by the highway loose.....my guess is it doesn't  work ..?


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## Beekissed (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> [QUOTE="Beekissed, post: 633508, member: 79]
> .  My uncle had a big ol' billy goat he tethered out for years around his pond....and he didn't have dogs running loose to guard it from harm or any fencing around his land either.   It could take care of itself just fine.



Ohhhhh. I don't DARE!! First, I'd be untangling them every 5 minutes (really brushy). But more importantly, if I suggested I was going to tether my goats, I'd probably be banned from BYH.  Shhhhhh.
[/QUOTE]
Seriously?   Tethering animals is something that has been happening since the beginning of time....literally.   It's not cruel at all when done properly and the animal is moved frequently to new graze.   That's how many small holders are utilizing rotational grazing without investing in multiple fenced paddocks.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Lol, if the guy down the street uses the underground dog fence, and you see his goats by the highway loose.....my guess is it doesn't  work ..?


Quite the contrary, I would think. See, unless you are the one who buries the wire, no one knows where the "limit" is. So actually he is doing what I would LIKE to do.....clear brush from a ridiculously steep embankment (probably close to 70 degrees. I can't walk up it.) created by the DOT when they widened the road. In fact, maybe tomorrow I'm going to stop and chat with him.


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## thistlebloom (Dec 31, 2019)

Goats are prey, and even the largest buck with the biggest horns is no match for an enthusiastic dog or two.
Please forgive my skepticism about the lack of predators. What makes its so in your area?

We have predators in abundance here. Name it, it's around. If I were to rely on my personal experience and sightings in my neighborhood I would have to say we only have coyotes. But it's a fact that we also have wolves, grizzly, black bear, cougar, bald eagles and other birds of prey. I have only ever lost a chicken to a hawk, but I am still aware that the possibilities of something large going for my horses or dogs is very real.

I'm very much in the camp of if you have animals their well being is your reasonable responsibility.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

Guys. I apologize for all the hullabaloo this thread has created. Maybe goats are just too much of a headache for my place. I'll just keep chipping away at the brush and hopefully will overcome it in time. I think my original plan for just chickens and rabbits is quite enough for me. Although with my garden plans have brought the suggestion that I NEED runner ducks! I had never even HEARD of runner ducks before. It just never stops. Just one MORE animal needed!


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## Beekissed (Dec 31, 2019)

Wait a minute....am I the only one who read the statement that his dog was guarding his place and potential livestock?   A dog on guard is taking reasonable responsibility.   I don't have fence for my chickens or ducks because I have dogs on guard for them and I will put the results of that level of protection up against anyone's fence any day.  

If I only had two sheep to clear brush and only intended to ever have two sheep, there's no way I'd be putting up a ton of fencing for them either.   It's likely I'd be exploring the invisible fencing I use for the dogs or tethering my sheep and moving them to new graze.   If I lived by a highway, it would be tethering rather than collars, but I'd still be trusting the dogs to guard them against predators.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> Guys. I apologize for all the hullabaloo this thread has created. Maybe goats are just too much of a headache for my place. I'll just keep chipping away at the brush and hopefully will overcome it in time. I think my original plan for just chickens and rabbits is quite enough for me. Although with my garden plans have brought the suggestion that I NEED runner ducks! I had never even HEARD of runner ducks before. It just never stops. Just one MORE animal needed!



No apologies  needed, this is BYH and we have in depth discussions  and opinions,  welcome to the herd


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## thistlebloom (Dec 31, 2019)

Nope. I read that too Bee. Doesn't change my opinion.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

Was just reading S.C. Statewide predators....I will start with the first two listed....Coyotes, statewide...Black bear.....statewide.....
My opinion  remains the same, cattle panels  can be moved around, and park the goats safely at night


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## Beekissed (Dec 31, 2019)

thistlebloom said:


> Nope. I read that too Bee. Doesn't change my opinion.



I'm curious then....do you think fences will keep out all predators but dogs will not provide any protection for livestock at all?  I'm trying to wrap my mind around that and just can't make it happen.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

@Beekissed. Thanks for trying to be a voice of reason here, but it's really not neccessary. See, I AM new to all this, really trying to learn, and I DO want to be a responsible livestock owner. I am responsible. That's why I don't drive if I'm drinking, smoke pot in spite of my aches and pains, or leave the burn barrel unattended. But, to invest $3000 to protect $300 worth of goats just isn't FISCALLY responsible. There are many facets of responsibility.
And @thistlebloom. My tiny little plot is surrounded by a LARGE farm which raises registered cattle. The family has a vendetta for predators, carries firearms at all times outside (heck, maybe inside too. Afraid to visit) and shoot on sight + organized predator hunts. They made certain I knew when I first moved in that any dog caught wandering the area wouldn't be coming home. I routinely scope the grounds (pretty easy in this muddy place) for tracks. Only seen one set of deer tracks so far.


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## thistlebloom (Dec 31, 2019)

Beekissed said:


> I'm curious then....do you think fences will keep out all predators but dogs will not provide any protection for livestock at all?  I'm trying to wrap my mind around that and just can't make it happen.


Dear Bee, that's not what I said at all. Of course good dogs can provide protection. And of course fences do not guarantee safety, but they are a defensive line. A tethered goat is a sitting duck.

This is what I said.


thistlebloom said:


> Goats are *prey*, and even the largest buck with the biggest horns is no match for an enthusiastic dog or two.
> Please forgive my skepticism about the lack of predators. What makes its so in your area?



And now that @Xerocles  has clarified his predator situation what he says makes more sense.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

thistlebloom said:


> And now that @Xerocles  has clarified his predator situation what he says makes more sense.


 In fact, my neighbor did have the courtesy to call me the week before Christmas and asked if my dog was home. I replied in the affirmative, as I was watching her attempt to dig a critter out of a hole. Next thing I heard was a really loud BOOM and the phone went dead.


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## thistlebloom (Dec 31, 2019)

Xerocles said:


> In fact, my neighbor did have the courtesy to call me the week before Christmas and asked if my dog was home. I replied in the affirmative, as I was watching her attempt to dig a critter out of a hole. Next thing I heard was a really loud BOOM and the phone went dead.



It sounds like you have very good neighbors.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 31, 2019)

Beekissed said:


> It's likely I'd be exploring the invisible fencing I use for the dogs or tethering my sheep and moving them to new graze.


Just curious - but haven't you mentioned that your dog(s) run through the invisible fencing? Isn't that why you have them tethered?   I love my goats - but I don't think there as smart as the average dog so they might not be able to learn the boundaries.

@Xeroccles - there's no need to spend 3K on fencing.  You can get 4 stock panels for not much more than $100.00  You can make a 16 x 16 square pen with nothing more than those panels and some clips to hold them together.  It's easy enough to move around and pretty varmint proof.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> @Xeroccles - there's no need to spend 3K on fencing.  You can get 4 stock panels for not around $100.00  You can make a 16 x 16 square pen with nothing more than those panels and some clips to hold them together.  It's easy enough to move around and pretty varmint proof.



SEE!!! That's what is so frustrating about being a newby and trying to make sense of all this!  16 X 16 is only 250 sq ft. And the vast majority of information I have gotten says 450 sq ft PER GOAT even for dwarfs, absolute minimum.  
So that's a couple of hundred. And most say electric should be used in conjunction. Outlying areas so that's battery or solar. So a few MORE hundred. And for a "temporary" fence. 
I expected this country living thing to be long hours and hard dirty work, but nobody warned me of the "mental stress" of just trying to figure out the "how". I've got to admit, that RV and seeing the country is sounding better and better. Only, if I visit an RV forum first, they'll have me in an RV that will take my children's lifetime to pay off....or have me living in a tent.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 31, 2019)

Sorry it's so frustrating - and sorry if I added to that frustration.   If that was to be their only home then a few more sq. feet wouldn't hurt at all....but if it's just the area that you want them to spend a couple of days in to clear an area, it would be ok.  For some reason I thought you would be bringing them to a barn/shed for the night.  So, add two more panels so that it's 32 x 16.  

I raised and showed pygmy goats for years and had many permanent pens that were 32 x 16.  In fact, I still have those pens.  I rotate full size goats through them now.   I can't see that you'd need electric in conjunction with a stock panel.  I can't imagine that a ND would clear that fence.  In all the years I've had goats (30 +) I've only had one goat clear a stock panel and that was/is a HUGE Nubian buck.

But, you might be making the right decision if you don't want to have to mess with moving a pen when they've cleared out that area.  Goats can't hardly be beat for doing a brush clearing job - but they aren't for everyone.


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## B&B Happy goats (Dec 31, 2019)

Go back to square one, get the cattle panels, move them weekly, supplement  with local hay and some goat pellets, put the goats in a safe closed shelter at night, ...if your neighbors are that good at watching out for predators,  and your dog can watch the goats while outside...you are much better off than tieing them out and getting tangled or strangled or eaten up by dogs or coyotes...at least you were being responsible  and trying to protect your livestock.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 31, 2019)

There ya go! @B&B Happy goats  has the perfect solution!


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## Baymule (Dec 31, 2019)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Go back to square one, get the cattle panels, move them weekly, supplement  with local hay and some goat pellets, put the goats in a safe closed shelter at night, ...if your neighbors are that good at watching out for predators,  and your dog can watch the goats while outside...you are much better off than tieing them out and getting tangled or strangled or eaten up by dogs or coyotes...at least you were being responsible  and trying to protect your livestock.


I like this one the best.


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

B&B Happy goats said:


> Go back to square one, get the cattle panels, move them weekly, supplement  with local hay and some goat pellets, put the goats in a safe closed shelter at night, ...


GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE? Dear, I never LEFT square one! I'm _cautious._ I never even think about going to square two until I already know what I'll be doing at square 12!   
Something I've never touched on before. Because I've had to many questions. But I have what I think is adequate nighttime protection. One of the most secure and well maintained things on the place. Formerly a dog kennel. 6 ft chain link, completely covered (with wire, not solid), I believe its 12 X 12 (but I need to re-measure, could be 10 X 10). Even the bottom of the wire is in concrete. All I need to add is a weather tight sleeping shed, a hay rack (and maybe some toys).  Even the food and water containers are sufficient. Not withholding information. It just wasn't pertinent specifically to the questions I was asking.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 31, 2019)

Well there ya go.  That just clinched it.  Get your panels and then get your goats!  

Next question!


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## Beekissed (Dec 31, 2019)

Here ya go....put some wheels on your dog kennel and Bob's yer uncle!


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## Xerocles (Dec 31, 2019)

Beekissed said:


> Here ya go....put some wheels on your dog kennel and Bob's yer uncle!


Oops! You missed the part about " even the wire is set in concrete" 
But that's pretty darn neat. Not at all practical for my terrain, but I really like it in principle.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 1, 2020)

The cattle panels will work for what you need, to clear overgrowth.  They also sell a hog panel....shorter in height, less heavy.  If your goats are small that may be sufficient -- especially with a lot of browse. Then you have that great night secure area.

Now these CPs can be moved BUT -- depending on the growth, may not be "easy".   They ARE a touch heavy, and the size doesn't make it convenient sometimes.   I moved four today, said a few bad words and I was on level ground.   They are cumbersome for one person.  Plus I'm a small woman, several yrs older than you.

MOST of us have a few "extra" of these around.  I get mine a few at a time & have a LOT.  Most are in use and some are set for temporary holding areas, corners that get heavy stress, etc.  You just never know when you will need a FAST fence or repair.   Pound in a few posts, tie them to those & done....that's what I mean for temporary.  LOL    Yes, I do have a T-post pounder & a puller.  They are wonderful!!   I also use the panels in my garden for things that need good support...pole beans, , tomato, cukes, etc.

@Beekissed mentions non fence areas.   If you live away from roads, have only a few animals and some protection -- dogs, etc.,  you can sometimes pasture with less fence concerns.  I have a herd of dairy goats and I have often taken them from their enclosure to another area that is unfenced to browse.  They were not left alone as I hung out with them, even doing work in that area, or having my morning coffee.   BUT they are all trained to come when called -- milk time & feed -- so they do stay within an easy distance with me.   If I put them in a different pasture (fenced) for the day, they want to be back to their barn at night and are waiting at the gate for me to open it.   Animals are creatures of habit. Work with what you have.

And that sheep enclosure -- I've seen one that was like a stall 6X8 and had one animal in it who easily pushed it around to graze.  LOL 

COST??  Been at this farm 20 yrs, still have expense, still learn new things, still have issues.  15 acres of fence & cross fence & barns & pastures to maintain.  It's my life.


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## Beekissed (Jan 1, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> But, to invest $3000 to protect $300 worth of goats just isn't FISCALLY responsible. There are many facets of responsibility.



I agree so much with this.   There are a lot of folks who will spend any amount of money to have a few head of this or that on their land as a hobby, but I'm not one of them.   If it's not cost effective, it doesn't make any sense to me.   I'm much too poor to keep animals for fun or for a hobby, so they are kept for a good reason or not at all~usually for food or for guarding said food.  

To the OP....keep in mind, goats are not the only ones who are good at consuming brush.    Hair sheep are a great option and not as difficult to keep in fencing as goats can be, while not needing shearing like wool sheep.  It's amazing just how fast a few hair sheep can strip a section of land of briers, autumn olive and any other green thing at their level.


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2020)

I had a friend who cleared a large portion of his land with cow panels and goats. Might I add some refinements on the cow panel set up? Cut two in half, that will be your gates. Set up two pens,  with gates facing same direction. That way you will always have easy access to go in and out of the pen and to move your goats to their night barn. Time to move them? Open gate in the middle, move them to next pen, close gate. Take down first pen and move it to the other end of the second pen. Then there will be no down time or keeping the goats in the barn while you move their pen. 

I have attempted to diagram the pens for you, if you squint your eyes, turn your head to the right, under a strong light, you might get the idea. Oh, with your leftover half cow panel, put it in the garden and trellis some green beans or something on it. 

l--------------+---------------l
l                     l                       l
[ gate            [ gate               [gate
l                    l                       l
l-------------+---------------l


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2020)

Crap. When I posted it, all the durned gates moved over! Now you might have to use a LOT of imagination to put those dadburned gates back where they belong! And I had then all lined up too!


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2020)

Stupid imaginary cow panels.


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## Mini Horses (Jan 2, 2020)

His biggest issue with any type fence and movement will be the extensive saplings & undergrowth -- all on unlevel ground.   YEAH!!!   

I moved 4 CPs couple days ago, level ground and they caught up on everything they could.   Really slows things if doing by hand.  Hooked to tractor some of the small things they can be yanked over without issue -- not always so by hand.   Of course, a riding mower can do the job, also!


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2020)

I can identify with that, I don't always wait on my husband to help me. I have a tendency to grab and go, with or without his help.

Hey! @Xerocles you could cut ALL the CP's in half and make them MUCH easier to move by yourself. Before too long, we'll make you the Cow Panel King in your neighborhood. LOL LOL


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## Xerocles (Jan 2, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I have attempted to diagram the pens for you, if you squint your eyes, turn your head to the right, under a strong light, you might get the idea.


 You were right about the head turning, squinting and light part! I read it carefully four times before I got it. Were you ever a teacher? Did you get fired?  
BUT WHAT A GREAT IDEA. Also if something should happen to the occupied fence (fallen tree limb?) it could be practically instantaneous to move into the other section. But each "end section" would need to have a gate. Correct?


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## Xerocles (Jan 2, 2020)

@Baymule AND @Mini Horses I read the other posts AFTER I did my initial reply. TSC has (order, not in stock...but will usually ship to my door instead of the store) 8 ft X 50 inch combination panels (by OK Brands) @ I think $16/panel. With 8 foot panels I could go down and across gullies even, dodge big trees, whatever. My land size to clear apparently has increased. My neighbor (who's been so good to me), when I told him of my plan, asked if, in the kudzu area, I would be willing to extend onto his property? HELL YEAH! More food for the goats AND a chance to repay some favors.
I THINK THIS IS GONNA WORK. I'll probably get a 12volt electric system to augment the panels (belt AND suspenders anyone), but for the first time since I started thinking about this....I'm feeling positive about it. It had become pretty "touch and go" for awhile. I was on the verge of writing it off. THANKS EVERYONE!


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## Beekissed (Jan 2, 2020)

Here's a handy little gadget that can create instant connection and gates for CP....neatest thing ever.   Takes all the hard work out of trying to create pens that are sturdy but also easily broken down.  I'll be getting some of these before constructing my sheep sorting pens....I want those to be highly adaptable and these connectors will render it so.  





__





						Wire Panel Connector Hinge
					

Provides a strong, reliable connection that is also a 360° hinge. Use to easily attach wire livestock panels and gates together.




					www.premier1supplies.com


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## Mini Horses (Jan 2, 2020)

Premier has some great stuff, good info & build instructions on their site …. PLUS  I have experienced great CS with them!

Side note -- Kudzu is supposed to be a high protein leaf when green.  It WILL overtake tall trees & buildings, given the chance.  I understand goats love it.   Maybe your neighbor has some CPs around, not in use...to loan??





This … and another at other side of house .. was what 6 of mine did for me one afternoon in about an hour.  The holly tree was solid leaf to ground before their "trim".  They also took out a couple other things.   Thanks, girls!


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## Beekissed (Jan 2, 2020)

I think that can only improve the health of the plant/tree to be naturally pruned, don't you?   The sheep did an amazing job around here trimming up my honeysuckle vines and it will likely stimulate new growth this next spring.


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## Xerocles (Jan 2, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> Premier has some great stuff, good info & build instructions on their site …. PLUS  I have experienced great CS with them!
> 
> Side note -- Kudzu is supposed to be a high protein leaf when green.  It WILL overtake tall trees & buildings, given the chance.  I understand goats love it.   Maybe your neighbor has some CPs around, not in use...to loan??
> 
> ...


Trim back those naked limbs and tell everyone its topiary! On purpose. Voila. Artistic goats!


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## Xerocles (Jan 2, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Here's a handy little gadget that can create instant connection and gates for CP....



That looks like 1 "strand" of a chain link fence. I've got tons of that lying around the place. Hmmmmmm. Not perfectly round, but....


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## Beekissed (Jan 2, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> That looks like 1 "strand" of a chain link fence. I've got tons of that lying around the place. Hmmmmmm. Not perfectly round, but....



Yeah....tried that.   Took some appropriate gauge wire I had on hand and tried to twist it around a hoe handle in a uniform manner so as to duplicate this gadget.   Couldn't pull it off, though it performed the same function it didn't go on and off smoothly like those do....if you watch the video on them it's a cool thing to watch their self threading ability.


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## Xerocles (Jan 2, 2020)

Baymule said:


> Hey! @Xerocles you could cut ALL the CP's in half and make them MUCH easier to move by yourself.


I AM SUCH A DUMMY AT TIMES! (As if y'all didn't already know that!) Several times it's been mentioned to cut the CPs, but nobody ever just flat out SAID "just take the 16' panels and cut them in half". I was on the TSC website, looking at the 8' panels and it (finally) dawned on me. $17/8 ft panel and $24/16 ft. Duh! And I already use a side grinder to cut (and smooth edges) wire. So nothing new to even buy.
This site has been worth every penny I spent to join. I feel like I need to invest in the "membership upgrade" things just to actually give something back. God knows I'm not able to add anything by giving advice.


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## animalmom (Jan 2, 2020)

You are most welcome!

We get the biggest kick out of seeing someone "Ah ha" moment.  We were all there at some point in our life.


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> You were right about the head turning, squinting and light part! I read it carefully four times before I got it. Were you ever a teacher? Did you get fired?
> BUT WHAT A GREAT IDEA. Also if something should happen to the occupied fence (fallen tree limb?) it could be practically instantaneous to move into the other section. But each "end section" would need to have a gate. Correct?


I' am a teacher, but not the school type, I teach FARM and ANIMAL stuff! LOL Can't fire me because it ain't a paying job. 

Yes, each end section would have to have a gate.


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## Baymule (Jan 2, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> I AM SUCH A DUMMY AT TIMES! (As if y'all didn't already know that!) Several times it's been mentioned to cut the CPs, but nobody ever just flat out SAID "just take the 16' panels and cut them in half". I was on the TSC website, looking at the 8' panels and it (finally) dawned on me. $17/8 ft panel and $24/16 ft. Duh! And I already use a side grinder to cut (and smooth edges) wire. So nothing new to even buy.
> This site has been worth every penny I spent to join. I feel like I need to invest in the "membership upgrade" things just to actually give something back./QUOTE]
> 
> You make us laugh. That is payment enough.


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## YourRabbitGirl (Jan 7, 2020)

B&B Happy goats said:


> My guess (having nigerian dwarf goats) is a shock collar would have to be really snug to give the goat a shock.....and once shocked, I think ithey would keep on moving. Doubt that system would work very well for you.....we use break away collars in case they get hung up on something,. Neighbor found one of their goats hung by the regular collar on  the wall hay rack.... and the electric underground fence won't  protect them from predators.


Goat owners that use traditional electric fence will tell you that the moment the power to the fence is "off" the goats realize and quickly escape, this would be similar to an electric collar system. ... The electric collar system may keep your goats contained but it will not prevent predator attacks. Just something to think about.


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## YourRabbitGirl (Jan 8, 2020)

frustratedearthmother said:


> My concern:  Goats will be a target for predators.  Fences give a bit of protection for them - shock collars don't.


Electric shock collars for cats and dogs will be banned in England, the government has announced. The training devices deliver up to 6,000 volts of electricity or spray noxious chemicals to control animals' behaviour. Environment secretary Michael Gove said this causes unacceptable "harm and suffering". I hope the same will happen here. we don't want this cruelty to continue


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 8, 2020)

Xerocles said:


> Well, lots of concern about predators. Cautious, but not overly so. We don't have "lions and tigers and bears, oh my". Not even coyotes (yet, anyhow). Dogs? Haven't seen a dog except mine in the 11 months I've been here, and MY dog (not a LGD) is fiercely protective of her area and her pets. Haven't seen any tracks, etc of coons, possums, or bobcats. She's outside unless we go below 30f, which is rare here.
> Heck, I think I'll just get two cheap brier goats and give it a try. The collars are cheap. Don't want to write off any animal as "expendable", but lets face it. $20 brier goats are about as expendable as it comes, to try out a new system. They make it a year, and go to the freezer farm anyhow.


Let me just warn you though...no goat is a cheap goat...there is sooo much that goes into the good care of goat keeps, minerals, vitamins, copper bolus, and I’m only thinking of a few...we got our goats from a bad farmer who went to jail for neglect.  But they have cost us a pretty penny...I’m not complaining...I treasure them!  Plus..after a week of owning them...you’ll love them too much to think of without worrying about predators...because everyone has them.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 8, 2020)

Baymule said:


> I' am a teacher, but not the school type, I teach FARM and ANIMAL stuff! LOL Can't fire me because it ain't a paying job.
> 
> Yes, each end section would have to have a gate.


You can even make a gate...we’ve done that for our goats....since it’s not wood boars.... It doesnt need to hold back 300 lbs...it’s really the climbing issue...we built ours with lumber and saved our fencing gates for more sturdy animals.


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## WyoLiving (Jan 8, 2020)

YourRabbitGirl said:


> Electric shock collars for cats and dogs will be banned in England, the government has announced. The training devices deliver up to 6,000 volts of electricity or spray noxious chemicals to control animals' behaviour. Environment secretary Michael Gove said this causes unacceptable "harm and suffering". I hope the same will happen here. we don't want this cruelty to continue


If used correctly a shock collar is an excellent tool for training dogs.  The 6000 volts is the max amount used, but it is a short shock that is delivered, not a continuous 6000 volt stream of electricity.
We have a "shock collar" we bought for our Irish Setter.  He would get so excited when we put it on him, because that meant he got to go hunting.  It has tone as well as adjustable levels of shock.  When out hunting, we used the tone to let him know when he went far enough, but we also used the shock for correction when he was away from us and not responding.  We were careful to only use as much correction as needed.  Some days he was more hard headed and needed a little more shock to respond.  
Personally, I think a little shock from the collar is more humane than getting wacked by a passing car.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 9, 2020)

WyoLiving said:


> If used correctly a shock collar is an excellent tool for training dogs.  The 6000 volts is the max amount used, but it is a short shock that is delivered, not a continuous 6000 volt stream of electricity.
> We have a "shock collar" we bought for our Irish Setter.  He would get so excited when we put it on him, because that meant he got to go hunting.  It has tone as well as adjustable levels of shock.  When out hunting, we used the tone to let him know when he went far enough, but we also used the shock for correction when he was away from us and not responding.  We were careful to only use as much correction as needed.  Some days he was more hard headed and needed a little more shock to respond.
> Personally, I think a little shock from the collar is more humane than getting wacked by a passing car.



I would have to agree. We used a shock collar to train our doberman to come when called. He was great learning everything but the come when called part when he was outside exploring just didnt stick. We would call him and if he did not come we would use the tone button and call him again. If he still did not come he got one shock which is an instant shock not a prolonged thing. There are many setting on our sportdog shock collar and we only ever had it set on the "low" setting on number 3. There were if I recall correctly 14 total settings, 7 on low and 7 on stubborn. We all tested it out on ourselves on the the highest levels and on all setting types. It isnt really a painful thing, I mean it was no worse them a static shock in my opinion and was over after a fraction of a second for the instant one. The repeating shock setting we never had to use.

We ended up training him in about 2 weeks, he kept wearing the collar for a year but we never needed to use it after the first 2 weeks. It has been 3years and though he no longer wears the collar the training stuck and he comes when called without hesitation no matter where on the property he is. Do I feel I abused or traumatized my dog? No.

All that being said our doberdoodle could give two figs about the shock collar. No setting on it works for her. Sometimes she comes when called sometimes she shows up 20-40 minutes later 

Our goats also don't seem to care about electric fence which we learned when using the electric net fence. So I think it depends a lot on your goats.


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## Beekissed (Jan 9, 2020)

Outlawing shock collars is the first step to outlawing electric containment systems, which are vital to farming all over the world, but especially here in the US.   If a shock collar is considered inhumane, then electric fencing, which has much more capabilities to render a bigger zap, would be considered even more so.   

Be careful what you wish for.  If you like to eat meat or even like to keep wild animals off your vegan food, you'll not want to eliminate the use of electric for training and containment purposes.   What the UK does, which limits most freedoms of all kinds, isn't necessarily what we all want here in the home of the free.


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## Baymule (Jan 9, 2020)

Beekissed said:


> Outlawing shock collars is the first step to outlawing electric containment systems, which are vital to farming all over the world, but especially here in the US.   If a shock collar is considered inhumane, then electric fencing, which has much more capabilities to render a bigger zap, would be considered even more so.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for.  If you like to eat meat or even like to keep wild animals off your vegan food, you'll not want to eliminate the use of electric for training and containment purposes.   What the UK does, which limits most freedoms of all kinds, isn't necessarily what we all want here in the home of the free.


AMEN to THAT. More government is just more control over our lives.


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## misfitmorgan (Jan 9, 2020)

Totally agree!


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## Nifty (Jan 23, 2020)

Some great info in this thread! Adding it to the homepage!


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## YourRabbitGirl (Jan 23, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> Let me just warn you though...no goat is a cheap goat...there is sooo much that goes into the good care of goat keeps, minerals, vitamins, copper bolus, and I’m only thinking of a few...we got our goats from a bad farmer who went to jail for neglect.  But they have cost us a pretty penny...I’m not complaining...I treasure them!  Plus..after a week of owning them...you’ll love them too much to think of without worrying about predators...because everyone has them.


I Agree. Even here, goats are expensive... Alive or as for consumption, I can't say anything about the main topic though... It's just so disturbing


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## Mini Horses (Jan 23, 2020)

Goats have a hollow shaft hair, electric fence works best for them if they hit it with their nose!  There's a conduction issue.   Plus goats are VERY intelligent and have a memory like an elephant.  Tests have proven it!   Heck some just go open the gate latch and walk out.  Only shock is to the owner.

If my goats get out -- I let them settle down, then go bang on the feed trough.  99% of the time they will come back in -- same place they went out.   Yep, new escape but they remember it at once.   Go fix it because they will reuse. 

Now cattle and horses are far more intimidated by electric fence.   Far larger animal but, the electric "hits" them.   Not sure about the Highlands....with all that hair.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 23, 2020)

Mini Horses said:


> Goats have a hollow shaft hair, electric fence works best for them if they hit it with their nose!  There's a conduction issue.   Plus goats are VERY intelligent and have a memory like an elephant.  Tests have proven it!   Heck some just go open the gate latch and walk out.  Only shock is to the owner.
> 
> If my goats get out -- I let them settle down, then go bang on the feed trough.  99% of the time they will come back in -- same place they went out.   Yep, new escape but they remember it at once.   Go fix it because they will reuse.
> 
> Now cattle and horses are far more intimidated by electric fence.   Far larger animal but, the electric "hits" them.   Not sure about the Highlands....with all that hair.


I will tell you about my goats...but , it is NOT the norm in any way...these are pet goats that I treat like Babies...they are no longer always in their fencing...yes, I will admit it.  I know, I know.  Many of you are ready to admonish me for all the things that could go wrong.  This is only when we are with them..but..they have learned to free range.  We started this with putting them on tie outs...because we didn’t have a huge fenced in area when we first got them, and I wanted them to be able to have more pasture.  They started to learn the perimeter...the square they are allowed in...this is no joke...these goats do not pass my tree line beyond to the house..then, there are more trees to the neighbors..nope, not there.  Then we have a tiny not even stream...a little bit where water runs into our pond...they don’t go past there..then, the square ends at the garden...that’s there perimeter....BUT...this is only with supervision...my pot belly pigs are out too...ducks are out too...it’s, like, that’s when my dream is happening...but, it’s very monitored....and then, everybody goes back to their respectI’ve ares.  But...it’s very cool how my pet goats have learned this...so, it is an example of how smart they are...but it is not something I would recommend for others...because, this only came after a lot of work..and my goats still wear leads, for the...just in case...  but, it is great when they are able to move around and explore.


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## JHP Homestead (Jan 23, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> I will tell you about my goats...but , it is NOT the norm in any way...these are pet goats that I treat like Babies...they are no longer always in their fencing...yes, I will admit it. I know, I know. Many of you are ready to admonish me for all the things that could go wrong. This is only when we are with them..but..they have learned to free range.


When I had a couple goats 2 years ago, they were eventually free range. We started the summer tying them out to eat brush and putting them into a makeshift stall in our barn at night. By midsummer, they were breaking out of their stall in the morning, running loose all day, and putting themselves back in at night. 

These were NOT pet goats and were almost impossible to catch, so we just rolled with it until winter, then sold them. It was kind of fun having a couple goats running around all the time, but it’s probably a miracle they didn’t get killed by predators.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 23, 2020)

JHP Homestead said:


> When I had a couple goats 2 years ago, they were eventually free range. We started the summer tying them out to eat brush and putting them into a makeshift stall in our barn at night. By midsummer, they were breaking out of their stall in the morning, running loose all day, and putting themselves back in at night.
> 
> These were NOT pet goats and were almost impossible to catch, so we just rolled with it until winter, then sold them. It was kind of fun having a couple goats running around all the time, but it’s probably a miracle they didn’t get killed by predators.


Wow..I thought we were the only ones that had these free range goats..they are soo neat...glad yours were safe!


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## Mini Horses (Jan 23, 2020)

I have a herd of 15 + the new babies.   But, mine have free ranged on my farm without issue...when they have gotten out, or when I take them on "walks" to the rear fields.   It is not uncommon for them to "learn" their boundaries.   Mine are quite good so long as they head to the rear of the farm.

However --- a neighbor has an alfalfa field across the road in front of my farm.   Did I mention that my girls LOVE alfalfa??  Other than there -- they stay where they belong.  LOL

I have enough forage to keep them happy, generally.  BUT --yeah, they have tested his hay before it was baled.


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## Duckfarmerpa1 (Jan 24, 2020)

Tha


Mini Horses said:


> I have a herd of 15 + the new babies.   But, mine have free ranged on my farm without issue...when they have gotten out, or when I take them on "walks" to the rear fields.   It is not uncommon for them to "learn" their boundaries.   Mine are quite good so long as they head to the rear of the farm.
> 
> However --- a neighbor has an alfalfa field across the road in front of my farm.   Did I mention that my girls LOVE alfalfa??  Other than there -- they stay where they belong.  LOL
> 
> I have enough forage to keep them happy, generally.  BUT --yeah, they have tested his hay before it was baled.


thats  sooo cool to know...our goats kid this week, and I’ve been worried about how to handle the young guys...I’m hoping the moms will keep them in check to learn the boundaries...but, it sounds as if, yes, that is very realistic,and goats are happy staying right where they are!


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## YourRabbitGirl (Feb 4, 2020)

Duckfarmerpa1 said:


> You can even make a gate...we’ve done that for our goats....since it’s not wood boars.... It doesnt need to hold back 300 lbs...it’s really the climbing issue...we built ours with lumber and saved our fencing gates for more sturdy animals.


Two gates on both ends is perfect.   
That will make them safe and satisfied... Exactly what we did in our farm.


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## YourRabbitGirl (Feb 5, 2020)

JHP Homestead said:


> When I had a couple goats 2 years ago, they were eventually free range. We started the summer tying them out to eat brush and putting them into a makeshift stall in our barn at night. By midsummer, they were breaking out of their stall in the morning, running loose all day, and putting themselves back in at night.
> 
> These were NOT pet goats and were almost impossible to catch, so we just rolled with it until winter, then sold them. It was kind of fun having a couple goats running around all the time, but it’s probably a miracle they didn’t get killed by predators.


Its always great to have free range animals. for me, the meat is fabulous... and its very easy to manage and take care of. you're lucky..


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## YourRabbitGirl (Feb 6, 2020)

Baymule said:


> It doesn't keep predators out.


I believe it cant. not unless you guys have a greatly created cage. having only one door and raise the dog near that door. its that simple for me but it really works.


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