# HELP!! Kid with a lump... is it CL?



## jcooke1 (May 10, 2011)

I am a very worried new goat owner and I am hoping all of you wonderful experts can give me your advice. My kid is about 4-5 months old and she has this lump just below her jaw line and I am worried. I am planning on taking her to the vets this weekend because I don't think I have any other choice, but I was hoping someone might have a miracle idea that it is not CL and be able to put my mind at ease. The lump seems firm, but it does not seem to bother her and all other habits are normal.


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## helmstead (May 10, 2011)

Not all lumps are CL.  Won't know for sure unless you have the exude tested.


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## elevan (May 10, 2011)

Could also be:

Milk Goiter 

Iodine Deficiency


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## helmstead (May 10, 2011)

Or, more simply, a hard piece of hay can pierce the esophagus and cause an abscess - had two of those in my time so far.  GROSS to lance and clean, esp. when the vet finds the offending piece of hay


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## elevan (May 10, 2011)

Yep...even more examples of what a lump could be other than CL.

You could also be looking at a bee sting...

If you're worried about it being CL you need to do the test.


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## Roll farms (May 10, 2011)

Looks more like a milk goiter to me, but the only way to *know* is have a vet check them out.

Are her eyelids pale at all?

I've never seen a CL lump in that location or get that...wide, generally they are more round, like a small golf ball.  Also, the incubation is 3-6 mos so he's a bit young to have a CL lump that large.


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## jcooke1 (May 10, 2011)

elevan said:
			
		

> Could also be:
> 
> Milk Goiter
> 
> Iodine Deficiency


Either one of these sound like they could possibly fit her except it is a hard lump and the link to milk goiter says that the lumps are usually "soft swellings". Would you suggest the iodine treatment to see if the lump shrinks? Another thing that just dawned on me was that approx. two weeks ago we carried the kids up into the yard but she was being a butt and wouldn't let us catch her. So we left her in their 14'x14'(approx) pin and allowed her to scream for awhile, finally calmed her down then snatched her up to place her with the other kids. By this time though the poor things voice became a little hoarse. I am curious could all of that screaming inflamed her glands causing the lump to form? If that is a possibility any suggestions to help heal her "sore throat"?


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## jcooke1 (May 10, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> Looks more like a milk goiter to me, but the only way to *know* is have a vet check them out.
> 
> Are her eyelids pale at all?
> 
> I've never seen a CL lump in that location or get that...wide, generally they are more round, like a small golf ball.  Also, the incubation is 3-6 mos so he's a bit young to have a CL lump that large.


Do kids still get milk goiter even though they have been weaned for about 2 months?

I have not looked at her eyelids yet. This is probably a very stupid question I am sure and the answer seems very obvious but I just want to check, when looking at eyelids, you flip it up and look at the underside, correct? Two weeks ago I had fecals ran for worms and cocci and both came up negative on all 4 kids.


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## elevan (May 10, 2011)

jcooke1 said:
			
		

> elevan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IDK if you could equate the screaming and hoarshness to this or not...   Stranger things have happened I guess.  When I have a sore throat due to overuse I gargle with salt water and then take a shot of olive oil.  I really don't know how you'd convert that to a goat either...

If you have a vet that sees goats then I would take it to them.  If you don't them I would choose the "diagnosis" that I thought best fit and then try the treatment.

It seems to me that the painted iodine would be the simplest solution to try.

On checking the eye lids (go to page 26)


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## Roll farms (May 11, 2011)

I've read milk goiter won't go away until about 6 mos.  Bullitt (our buckling) has one and he's 4.25 mos old.  I'm not worrying about it.
I know his isn't CL or iodine def....they get kelp in their mineral.


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## helmstead (May 11, 2011)

Some of my fat babies still have remnants of their milk goiters (Tambora for instance) at a year old 

A hard swelling is SOME kind of abscess.  I would get it to a vet and have it lanced/tested.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 11, 2011)

helmstead said:
			
		

> Or, more simply, a hard piece of hay can pierce the esophagus and cause an abscess - had two of those in my time so far.  GROSS to lance and clean, esp. when the vet finds the offending piece of hay


This happened to us before, too.  Our kid was around a month old when it happened.  He knew enough to eat the hay but apparently not enough to actually chew it.


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## jcooke1 (May 13, 2011)

Well, tomorrow is the big day... I am taking my little one to the vet and I am scared of what he might say her lump is. Fingers crossed it is just a piece of hay, but what if it is not. Do you think my other three are infected by now? Do any of you have a herd that is CL positive, if so how do you deal with them? How long does CL stay in the ground for?


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## Roll farms (May 14, 2011)

Please let us know what you find out...

I'm betting it's NOT CL, but if it is, you'll have some management decisions to make for sure.

I am down to 1 CL+ doe now and she rarely gets an abscess anymore.  If I had it all to do over, though...I would have culled rather than deal w/ it for the last 9 years.


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## jcooke1 (May 14, 2011)

Update... Well the vet seemed positive today that the abscess is due to CL.  He is going to send off blood work for me to confirm if it is or is not CL for sure.  It is so hard she is my boyfriend's favorite little girl so I left the decision making up to him. The vet went ahead and lanced it open and gave us acid water to flush it with 3-4 times a day and a bottle of penecilin to give her 2xd. After that I guess she is safe to place back in with the other goats??? Any of you that have had or have CL in your herds do you place the infected back with the rest of the herd once the abscess is healed? If so, do you just wait for another abscess to form and than isolate the goat again? The vet talked like she may never have another abscess again or she may. I thought goats who are CL positive routinely have abscesses. How likely is that she may have already passed the CL to the other goats? I am asking all these questions because the vet didn't seem to have much worry about my situation and like it was not a big deal. As if my poor little girl was just a normal livestock animal that lives in a field. Why is it so hard for some people to understand these little things are pretty much our kids. Everything I have read tells me CL is a very BIG deal. Why is he taking it so casually?


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## Roll farms (May 14, 2011)

My vet told me years ago, "You'll have to kill them all and start over."  as if she wasn't referring to my children.

If it IS CL, you can put her back in once it's completely healed over.  Only leaky, 'wet' abscesses are contagious.

And if it IS, she will get more...some get them more often than others.

I isolate mine when I notice one, lance them, let them heal, then send them back out.

I'm looking at your pic again...is this lump on the neck under the red spot?  Or the 'lump' at the jaw line?  
Can you repost a pic larger?

eta, if the abscess never busted at your place, then nothing *should* have spread.


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## helmstead (May 14, 2011)

WHY didn't the vet test the EXUDE??

I swear it doesn't look in the right 'spot', and is probably a staph abscess...I hope, anyway, for your sake, that the vet is wrong.  You simply cannot diagnose CL without the test, so  til the results from the _blood test_ come back (still shaking my head on that one).


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## Roll farms (May 14, 2011)

Kate, I'm thinking if they didn't know enough to test the pus instead of doing a blood test, I'm hoping they're wrong!

I'm w/ you...it's just not in a CL location...


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## jcooke1 (May 14, 2011)

I took this one yesterday, I don't know that it is any better. The lump is just at the red and below.  Now that it is shaved down the lump is very visible and a little smaller than a golf ball. I will take a picture of it tomorrow now that it is shaved and  . I don't know that the vet had the ability to test the EXUDE. The tech said something about it but we went with the blood test for some reason. He didn't even suggest to test for CL, I did. He was happy enough assuming it was CL beca use of the lump.  . I really wasn't pleased with the vet at all.


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## jcooke1 (May 14, 2011)

I really really hope it is only staph.


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## jcooke1 (May 15, 2011)

Another thing... when flushing an abscess do I put the tip of the syringe inside the abscess or just flush around the outside? If I keep poking in the abscess how does it ever heal?


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## Roll farms (May 15, 2011)

You don't want it to heal w/ any pus left in it, or it WILL just rupture again.  Poke that syringe in there and wiggle it around.  Squeeze to make sure you get all the 'juice' and any pus back out.  I usually do that for 3-4 times after lancing, and then let it heal.

That picture shows it a little clearer...and that *could* be a CL location.  In the other pictures I didn't see it, I'm sorry.


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## helmstead (May 15, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> That picture shows it a little clearer...and that *could* be a CL location.  In the other pictures I didn't see it, I'm sorry.


 Yep, that photo shows it in a different light.  Still, wait for test results before you panic, and get ready to send off blood on the others.


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## jcooke1 (May 15, 2011)

These are our first goats and we sure got some really bad luck with them. We just don't know what to do with her. How could she get it at such a young age? Could her mama have passed it on to her? If so and it is CL it is most likely her twin probably has it. Either way the first step in our plan is to see if she is positive for CL and if so everyone is going to be tested.  If everyone comes up positive I just don't know what we are going to do.  it is hard to think of putting them all down if they come back positive because it is not a disease that would kill them like cancer or anything. It is just a disease that would cost me a lot of money and be difficult to deal with. I just don't see the act of putting them down being justified because of my selfishness of not wanting to step up to the plate when my pet ownership gets hard. What would any of you do in my position? We bought these animals as pets, if they were just livestock in the field everything might be different.


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## Roll farms (May 15, 2011)

It is completely manageable in pets...and it's not terrible expensive, either.  When we have one ready to burst, we lance it, clean it, let it heal.  Other than scalpels / iodine / peroxide / gloves, there's not extra cost.  You can aslo buy the Case-bac vaccine from Jeffer's Supply and vaccinate your goats if you choose...it won't 'cure' those that have it, but I have had pretty good success w/ it containing the spread.  However, any goats you vaccinate *will* test positive afterward, so test before you vaccinate.

The reason I regret choosing to keep my CL+ stock is b/c I breed / sell babies and it's a LOT of extra work for me, pulling kids and bottle raising them so that I can *guarantee* they'll be CL free.

Just b/c one kid caught it doesn't guarantee both will have it.  And unless there's been a busted abscess on your place, the rest *should* be clean.  It may or may not have caught it from the dam (if it is CL...), any goat w/ an open abscess can pass it to any animal w/ an open wound.

*IF* they do have it, and one gets an internal abscess, or so I am told...it can kill them.  As far as I know, that hasn't happened here.


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## jcooke1 (May 15, 2011)

Well first round of flushing and penicillin didn't go so well. Only got maybe half the penicillin dose in her. Any advice on where the easiest spot is to give the shot? We flushed the abscess but the only thing that came out was our clear fluid... is that a good sign that maybe most drainage came out yesterday when the vet lanced it? The lump is still there and hard though. What does that mean?


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## Roll farms (May 15, 2011)

It takes a while for the lump to go down.  
Did you really squish the stuff around and then squeeze it out, or just squirt it in and let it run out on it's own?  
I give Pen G in the muscle of the butt cheek...others say not to.


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## jcooke1 (May 15, 2011)

Roll farms said:
			
		

> It takes a while for the lump to go down.
> Did you really squish the stuff around and then squeeze it out, or just squirt it in and let it run out on it's own?
> I give Pen G in the muscle of the butt cheek...others say not to.


There was nothing to squish around, the lump is just solid, we just squirted it in and let it run back out, tried rubing around the lump to get puss to come out, but got nothing except for the clear fluid. 

The vet put SQ directions on the bottle but I did notice the the bottle label says to give IM. 

I am just SO confused...


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## jcooke1 (May 19, 2011)

Update...... got the titer back and it is not CL .  Doc says probably just strep or a staf infection and the lump is probably a swollen lymph.


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## PJisaMom (May 19, 2011)

That's AWESOME NEWS!!!!!


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## helmstead (May 19, 2011)




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## Roll farms (May 19, 2011)




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## jcooke1 (May 19, 2011)

I can not express how happy I am with those results. These are our first four goats and we were going to throw in the towel on raising goats, but I am so glad we don't have to because they ate so cute and I love them all just SO much!   never imagined how cute these critters really were until we got them and now I can't think of being without them; they are hilarious.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 20, 2011)

Whew!! 

That's fantastic news.  Goats are always inventing new ways to try to send us over the edge... keep your grappling hook handy for the next go around!


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## dhansen (May 21, 2011)

Sooooo glad the results came back negative!  I am so proud of you as a first-time goat owner lancing and flushing an abcess!  Goats are really fun!


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## jcooke1 (May 24, 2011)

dhansen said:
			
		

> Sooooo glad the results came back negative!  I am so proud of you as a first-time goat owner lancing and flushing an abcess!  Goats are really fun!


I wish I could say I lanced it myself, but I didn't we took her to the vets. Heck we have a hard enough time trying to figure out how to give a shot... I might have to hire you to give them their annuals. Lol!


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