# Am I being too sensitive?



## Dage (Jul 20, 2016)

We have like wayyy too many wethers...like 5 and more on the way am sure! So we are selling them off to make room for new kids and does! YAY! We were told by a friend that a friend of HIS wants to buy several wethers. That´s great!
But he came by yesterday with another friend of the first friend while we were having our well pump fixed. They stood around and watched a bit then began wandering about. Investigated the hand dug well my son´s are currently working on (its at about 15ft currently)...what´s this for? No water...blah blah blah. The man I assumed never was introduced as the friend who´s interested in buying wethers. He really enjoyed looking at and studying my big Saanen buck and my big plump and very fluffy chickens (which he offered to buy for eating)...but very briefly did he state he was interested in buying the wethers. When my son offered to show him the wethers. He said nothing. And shortly thereafter left. He DID however make mention to wanting to put the goats on a cross for grilling... That just did it for me!
 Maybe I´m being oversensitive but to think of my goats being split and splayed is NOT something I care to imagine! The cross should never have been used. Not with Yahshua(Jesus) and not with anyone...not even a goat! I do realize that the goat would by that time already be butchered and dead. However this just slapped and hit me the wrong way! I need some feedback! 
BTW! I am vegetarian!


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 20, 2016)

I can see how it would make you upset with his entire attitude and all. However they are named cross grills they are not a cross. I have seen then built many ways mostly either a box frame with a middle spit or a middle spit with multiple bars comming off of it.

I personally wouldnt want to think of my does i love on one. But my wethers i know exactly what they are for and i am quite real about that and any of animals we raise for meat. I however do not try to purposely offend people who dont eat meat...but i have had more then one person take it that way.

We actually had a veg lady yelling at us in the grocery store because we had firstly meat in our cart and secondly she asked about our farm and we mentioned we raised for diary, meat, and fiber...she flipped her wig telling us we were going to hell and were evil...god ever ment for us to kill our "friends" we should be ashamed etc until the manager literally told her she needed to leave and was not welcome back to the store.

So to sum it up. Personally i would be offended by the mans entire attitude period but not specifically by the method he wanted to eat/cook an animal and not by wanting to eat my animals. Maybe im just less sensitive i dunno..however they are your animals and your property to you have a right to feel how you like.


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## mamaperreca (Jul 20, 2016)

Maybe he did not know your are vegetarian? If he did then, yes that is kind of disrespectful.  I also think that people that don't actually raise goats, well, they don't realize how attached we can get to them.  To them it isn't any different that thinking that a cow in the field sounds yummy because they love hamburgers. We are a meat eating family and we will joke when we drive by a pig farm that they look delicious.


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## Latestarter (Jul 20, 2016)

Sorry Dage, but I think perhaps a bit overly sensitive. There's no context as to tone or inflection for his comments and I doubt that as a first time guest/visitor on your property that he was intentionally trying to be rude, especially if he was considering paying you to buy an/some animals from you. Additionally, unless you brought it up in conversation, how would he know that you were a vegetarian? You live on a farm and raise animals... aren't they for food? I would tend to see it as similar to me seeing your hogs and saying how much I'd love to taste those hams after a good smoking, or taste that bacon after frying... I mean, what he said is basically one of the predominant ways to grill a whole goat, or sheep, or pig, etc. As Morgan stated, it's called a cross grill... 

I think today we as a nation have become to easily offended and are overly politically correct, leading to misunderstandings and hard feelings. I wasn't there, I didn't hear the conversation. Just my impressions.

Personally, I'd be more concerned that he was scoping the place out for an after hours visit... that's just me and I'm standoff-ish and suspicious by nature... especially in today's day and age.


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## Mini Horses (Jul 20, 2016)

I've had buyers  (many years back)  who wanted to butcher the goat there and carry carcass they wanted out.     Rest to be left behind.    No sale.   You can buy to butcher but, just not to butcher here.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 20, 2016)

I agree with @Latestarter @misfitmorgan 

Many people eat goat. Nothing is wrong with that. You might not, but others do. Just as you choose to be a vegetarian, others choose to eat meat. It's a personal choice. 
I see so many vegetarians get upset when someone mentions eating meat. If I don't eat vegetables, would it be disrespectful if you said you wanted to eat a bowl of broccoli?  

As others have already stated, I think the cross is just another grilling method. 

The scoping out is what would be worrisome. 

I love all my goats. I have shed more tears over my goats than anything else. They are my babies. But, I do sell for meat and I love goat meat  I am at the point now that I know bucklings out of certain does will go for meat. I even bottle feed. Yes, it's hard and takes a long time to get there, but not every goat can be a pet. Many wethers get sold over and over. We all know how addictive goats are, most people grow their herd rather quickly. Those first cute little wethers that cannot produce kids or milk are always the first to go. Many are seen as disposable, they are almost always last to get the proper care needed. 

Of course there are exceptions to this, in some places urban goats are becoming popular- in that case these goats generally live the life of luxury.


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## Baymule (Jul 20, 2016)

I vote for being oversensitive. Not to sound rude, but just how many pet wethers can one have before the feed bill gets over bloated? If you sell them, more than likely, they will go for meat. You might be better off to take them to a sale barn, drop them off, and leave. Then you wouldn't be faced with the buyers. this is part of farming. Domestic farm animals serve a purpose, meat, milk, fiber. Only a few can be kept for pets. Are you raising your goats for milk? I have read that there are lines of dairy goats that will milk for several years without drying off and rebreeding. That would take care of the problem of excess kids.

This guy's attitude just rubbed you the wrong way. He probably isn't even aware that he insulted you. When one is buying multiple wethers, it is to be expected that they will be butchered and eaten. You don't have to sell them to this guy, but then you will have to find another buyer. Maybe he might even make you a good customer, buying your wethers, that is, if you can get over your revulsion of him eating your babies. You could tell him that you are a vegetarian, you know that he is going to eat them, but please don't tell you the details.

You have to make a decision. If you continue to breed and raise kids, you have to face that not everyone wants a pet. I understand this is difficult for you. Many of us love and cherish our animals, we treat them kindly, we care deeply for them, but we eat them. If they weren't for a purpose, then they wouldn't be bred at all. If you want to save a heritage farm animal, eat it. If the farmer has no recompense in the form of profit, for raising his goat, lamb, hog, calf, chicken, then the heritage breeds would simply disappear. Many of them are in critical status of going extinct. I am going a little off topic here, but I am using heritage farm animals to bring a point. The point being, we raise our animals, we love them, we recognize that they are part of the food chain, we sell them because we can't keep them all.

I hope you can come to terms with the prospective buyer and I hope you can come to terms with yourself. This is especially hard for you as your beliefs do not include eating meat. I respect your choices and truly hope that this works out for you.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 20, 2016)

In a word.

*YES
*



Dage said:


> Not with Yahshua(Jesus) and not with anyone...not even a goat!



My Saviour went willingly to the cross so that I may have eternal life. So I am thankful and eternally grateful.

Goats do not go to a cross they go on a spit.

You own the goats so you decide where they go but reality is that meat is eaten all over the world. Animals are food. Logic and reasoning will show why this is important. Without people eating animals the population would grow to astonishing numbers, food would grow scarce, disease rampant and then the suffering and starvation would begin. Zoonotic illnesses would be rampant as well. 

Every person has a choice to eat what they want. 
Keep in mind that you are on a livestock forum.
Most people on this forum raise and grow their animals for food.
Rabbits, sheep, goats, chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys, pigs, & cattle are eaten.  Yes, we can love our animals, care for them, have vet care etc... but we still eat them. 

I prefer my wethers to go to the freezer. Why? Because far too many do end up on the "bottom" of the priority list. People get wethers then start adding more goats etc... well the does give milk and kid and you only need 1 buck for so many does... after several years of keeping the doelings etc those wethers are now a costly animal. Many put wethers in with intact bucks for company and they get beat up during rut or mounted over and over by an intact buck. Over time they get sold, then sold again and again.
At least in the freezer I know that won't happen, they won't end up with UC, they won't end up neglected etc.

Take a look at what you wrote- 



Dage said:


> We have like wayyy too many wethers...like 5 and more on the way am sure! So we are selling them off to make room for new kids and does!



Why are you not keeping them?  ... to make room for MORE kids and DOES.

When we sell for meat I have to know who is getting it so that I know the process is done humanely. If I am not sure of the person then we will assist on our property to make sure it is done right.

We also turn our chickens and goats etc into dog food.


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## norseofcourse (Jul 21, 2016)

I have faced this with my sheep.  I am raising them for fiber, but I also want to milk.  To milk you need to breed, which gives you lambs.  I cannot keep all the lambs - I would quickly overload the capacity of my land, even if I could afford to buy unlimited hay and feed.

I am not a vegetarian, but it's been difficult (and may always be) to eat an animal I've raised, or to sell them to be eaten.  I know the arguments for it - they've had better lives than animals in 'factory farms', they are raised without unnecessary antibiotics and other chemicals.  For my sales, I do take them directly to a local butcher, so I know where they go and how they will be treated.

Is it hard?  YES!  It's hard because I care about my sheep and my lambs.  It's hard because I take care of them to the best of my ability.  It's hard because I want to make sure they are treated as humanely as possible.

The day it's not hard, is the day I need to quit.


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## Dage (Jul 24, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> You live on a farm and raise animals... aren't they for food?


Their milk and their eggs are for food. However there flesh is not. Not on my farm! I am not offended by the prospect of him EATING and butchering them but really! I don´t want to hear about it! Nor the way in which he plans to do it! TMI!


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## TAH (Jul 24, 2016)

I agree with what the others have said.


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## Latestarter (Jul 24, 2016)

Sorry Dage... you're defending your position... When you ask for opinions, "I need some feedback!" and receive them, the proper response is "thank you" and then move on. If you don't want to hear that your position might have been skewed, then don't ask.

You asked for feedback (opinions), I provided mine. On YOUR farm it's only milk and eggs for food, "never the animals"... you're not the majority of farms... There's no way the person you're railing against could have possibly known this, or any of your other personal life's beliefs. Again. sorry it's not what you wanted to hear.


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## Dage (Jul 24, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Sorry Dage... you're defending your position... When you ask for opinions, "I need some feedback!" and receive them, the proper response is "thank you" and then move on. If you don't want to hear that your position might have been skewed, then don't ask.
> 
> You asked for feedback (opinions), I provided mine. On YOUR farm it's only milk and eggs for food, "never the animals"... you're not the majority of farms... There's no way the person you're railing against could have possibly known this, or any of your other personal life's beliefs. Again. sorry it's not what you wanted to hear.



You´re right!  I just love em all...wethered or not.


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## Goat Whisperer (Jul 24, 2016)

Dage said:


> Their milk and their eggs are for food. However there flesh is not. Not on my farm! I am not offended by the prospect of him EATING and butchering them but really! I don´t want to hear about it! Nor the way in which he plans to do it! TMI!


I understand knowing the process can be hard for some, especially if you have never seen or done anything like this. Whenever we sell a goat for meat, we ALWAYS ask what methods they use and how they do it. I want to make sure they aren't buying one of our animals to practice on and that the deed is as quick as possible. I want to make sure the goat isn't being tied to a tree for days on end, I want to know the goats life will end right away- nothing dragging it out. I want a humane death for any animal used for meat.

It can be hard to ask these questions at first, but I like having the peace of mind. 

Everyone that we sold meat animals have been very respectful of both us and the animals. They are gentle and don't just shove them in cage and drive away. They really seem to care and treat the animals right.


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## Pamela (Jul 24, 2016)

Mini Horses said:


> I've had buyers  (many years back)  who wanted to butcher the goat there and carry carcass they wanted out.     Rest to be left behind.    No sale.   You can buy to butcher but, just not to butcher here.


I just had this experience too. No sale as well. I don't care if you eat them, but you're not going to slaughter your goat on my place.


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## Latestarter (Jul 24, 2016)

Thanks.


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## Southern by choice (Jul 24, 2016)

@Dage  Even those of us that do sell for meat and eat it... it is often still hard. We have pretty strict rules here so that is why we do ask. It can be hard to hear but I am a big believer in doing things humanely.

I use to have a very large breeding farm for poultry. I had so many young cockerels to get rid of and usually we would gather meat for our dogs, we really didn't have time for all that. I posted an ad. Long story short one guy was real evasive... I asked LOTS of questions. The birds didn't go to him. After the "grilling" lol I gave him I figured he wanted the birds to help train his fighting birds. Cock fighting is illegal but big money where we live. We have a large population from Central America here... may be part of their culture but not here. 
We have also had calls for chickens during certain "holidays" ... we avoid selling at those times as well because I am ok if people want to eat them I am not ok for them to just use them as sprinkling of blood for their holiday. 

Last week we had a goat go for meat. Yes, it was hard. He was born on our farm, cared for and 3 years old. He would have made a great commercial breeder but everyone wants registered bucks only.  The guys explained the hows and when and we said ok.

I know it is hard for you. One day maybe you will summon the courage to ask those questions so you KNOW it is being done right.

Sometimes people do have a hard time understanding you can do both... food and love.
Today was very sad for us. One of our oldest Roos (AJ) was dying. He was held all day. Many tears shed here. WE LOVED this bird. In the end we put him out of his misery. A slow death is not ok IMO. 
He is buried under our Willow along side some of our other "special" birds and critters.

If we  ever lose our compassion then it will be time to stop doing what we are doing.


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## ldawntaylor (Jul 24, 2016)

I have been reading this particular thread with some interest.

Dage, I understand where you are coming from.  I was raised vegetarian.  So the transition to selling goat kids knowing they were destined for the dinner table was not an easy one.  It still is rather difficult.

If you want my suggestion in dealing with this aspect of animal raising... is there someone you trust to take care of the details and conversations involved with selling the wethers?

Or find ways to bring up your being vegetarian.  Most people are courteous enough to edit their conversations.  A simple statement from you about not being comfortable hearing the details might make a difference.

It takes a level of courage to ask how the goats will be treated once they are sold.  But, personally, I would rather know at least in general details what their end will be.  But, I acknowledge, it has taken me several years to reach this point.

Wishing you all the best in the choices you make.


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## Dage (Jul 24, 2016)

ldawntaylor said:


> I have been reading this particular thread with some interest.
> 
> Dage, I understand where you are coming from.  I was raised vegetarian.  So the transition to selling goat kids knowing they were destined for the dinner table was not an easy one.  It still is rather difficult.
> 
> ...


Thank you all for your input! And Thank you Idawntaylor for understanding!


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## Baymule (Jul 24, 2016)

@Dage, no one here faults you for your beliefs. We don't care if you eat meat or not. Even though many of us eat meat, we understand and respect you and your beliefs. You are a valued member here, it takes all of us to make this the great forum that it is. Stay active here, post pictures and tell us about your farm, we love hearing about other's farms, we all live vicariously through each other, don't 'cha know!


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 24, 2016)

What IS the most humane/instant way to slaughter?

I have been trying to research it and it SEEMS the most humane way is to shoot it in the back of the head towards the jaw, then slit the throat. I know a lot of people just slit the throat, but I do NOT want that done!

I don't want to butcher any of our goats, but it seems like the best option for a couple of the unfriendly mixed breed bucks who I will never breed and can't sell.

Maybe this is a really dumb question, but when I was watching videos on drawing blood for testing, they mentioned not to press on the jugular vein too long because you don't want them too pass out. Would purposefully doing THAT and making them pass out be a good way to make it more humane right before slaugtering?! Would that be painful for the goat or just uncomfortable?

Oh, and I would have someone else do it, I just want only the most humane method done...

Thank you!


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## sadieml (Jul 25, 2016)

I would think that knocking it out before butchering might not be a bad idea.  Soon I will be ordering my first group of "meat birds".  I am convinced it is the right thing to do, since I don't care to give up meat and have seen the horrible footage of commercial chicken farms that seem to have given the whole world nightmares!  If I raise them, I know they'll have a good life right up to the moment it ends.  I hope to raise a feeder pig this fall, but even though I love mutton (sheep and goat) I don't know if I will ever be able to butcher my own babies.  I bond to readily with my goaties, and my family will certainly not eat them with me.  I'm getting enough flack about the chickens!  I am interested in what you guys, @Southern by choice, @Baymule, & @Goat Whisperer, prefer as far as methods go.  What say you all?


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## alsea1 (Jul 25, 2016)

I sold a batch of kids a few months back and the buyers did a halal slaughter on my place.
I will not be able to do it that way  myself, but these people did a great job of it. Each goat was treated gently and killed swiftly.
If it really bothers you to sell kids off knowing they are to become someone's dinner then maybe you should reconsider breeding goats.  Not all does are going to be good enough on the milk stand and there are more than enough bucks to go around. There are only so many qualified pet homes available.


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## TAH (Jul 25, 2016)

Goat Whisperer said:


> Most of the time, just toss a handful of grain down… shoot… and the goat is dead before it even finished the bite of grain it was working on.


That is what we do. It is really a easy and completely clean way to me.


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## Latestarter (Jul 25, 2016)

Goats and sheep "bash heads" as a routine... I don't think a club to the head will really have the desired effect.  A .22 long rifle would most likely do the trick (fired from behind or side, NOT between the horns/eyes. But if you're not sure that it's enough killing power, you can always step it up to a 38 special or 9mm or something of that magnitude (handguns). As with killing anything, bullet placement is the key. Or go to a center fire rifle round.


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 25, 2016)

I did NOT mean knock them out! 

What I was trying to ask was if pressing on the jugular vein ( with your finger) would make them pass out with minimal discomfort. (Maybe while they ate)

The reason I even thought of that was because when I was watching a video on how to draw blood from a goat, they mentioned not to press on the vein too long because it can cause them to pass out which I thought might be a good thing if you are going to slaughter them... Maybe not...


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## Kusanar (Jul 25, 2016)

Guys, I know you are discussing human ways to do things, but maybe this isn't the thread for it. The OP has already expressed a desire not to hear people talking about killing goats. I don't mind reading it, but the OP would probably rather it went elsewhere


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## Green Acres Farm (Jul 25, 2016)

Oops... Sorry


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## Southern by choice (Jul 25, 2016)

Kusanar said:


> Guys, I know you are discussing human ways to do things, but maybe this isn't the thread for it. The OP has already expressed a desire not to hear people talking about killing goats. I don't mind reading it, but the OP would probably rather it went elsewhere



I agree. Better to have a whole other thread regarding the issue. 

Of course like all threads one thing leads to another... we will be talking about rainbows and unicorns by the time it hits page 10.


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## Latestarter (Jul 26, 2016)

Nice that someone came along and slapped us upside the head... DUH! Well deserved! Thanks @Kusanar  and Sorry @Dage


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## Baymule (Jul 26, 2016)

I have a pretty pony unicorn with pink sparkly hooves, a long flowing mane and tail, she is white and changes colors in the sunshine. Thinking about trading her in for a unicorn with _wings _so we can fly over the rainbow together!


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## Mike CHS (Jul 26, 2016)

I thought flying Unicorns were extinct


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## frustratedearthmother (Jul 26, 2016)

I heard they actually found some deep in the Enchanted Forest!


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## misfitmorgan (Jul 26, 2016)

i so refuse to get sucked into the colored cartoon references and am going to pretend i so dont get the reference and that i dont like them


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## Latestarter (Jul 26, 2016)




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## sadieml (Jul 26, 2016)

I heard that when unicorns pass gas it comes out in rainbow bubbles...

preeettttyyyyy...


p.s.-Sorry Dage, I wasn't thinking.  No more icky talk here.


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## Bossroo (Jul 26, 2016)

Green Acres Farm said:


> I did NOT mean knock them out!
> 
> What I was trying to ask was if pressing on the jugular vein ( with your finger) would make them pass out with minimal discomfort. (Maybe while they ate)
> 
> The reason I even thought of that was because when I was watching a video on how to draw blood from a goat, they mentioned not to press on the vein too long because it can cause them to pass out which I thought might be a good thing if you are going to slaughter them... Maybe not...


I worked at a University and I drew blood from all manner of animals for research purposes.  All animals ( including you and me ) have a jugular vein and artery on both sides of the neck so pressing on one of the veins will have miniscule to no effect on the animal passing out. However, any .animal could possibly go into shock from being handled since that is a defence mechanism to not struggle so the end is easier .  I would surmise that the person that mentioned this type of factoid isn't well informed but passed on what he/she has heard.


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## JACB Dorper (Jul 26, 2016)

Heel low:



Dage said:


> We have like wayyy too many wethers...like 5 and more on the way am sure! So we are selling them off to make room for new kids and does! YAY! We were told by a friend that a friend of HIS wants to buy several wethers. That´s great!
> But he came by yesterday with another friend of the first friend while we were having our well pump fixed. They stood around and watched a bit then began wandering about. Investigated the hand dug well my son´s are currently working on (its at about 15ft currently)...what´s this for? No water...blah blah blah. The man I assumed never was introduced as the friend who´s interested in buying wethers. He really enjoyed looking at and studying my big Saanen buck and my big plump and very fluffy chickens (which he offered to buy for eating)...but very briefly did he state he was interested in buying the wethers. When my son offered to show him the wethers. He said nothing. And shortly thereafter left. He DID however make mention to wanting to put the goats on a cross for grilling... That just did it for me!
> 
> Maybe I´m being oversensitive but to think of my goats being split and splayed is NOT something I care to imagine! The cross should never have been used. Not with Yahshua(Jesus) and not with anyone...not even a goat! I do realize that the goat would by that time already be butchered and dead. However this just slapped and hit me the wrong way! I need some feedback!
> BTW! I am vegetarian!



I am a meat eater...very much so.  My mother tho, is a vegetarian, so I can be balanced by understanding different strokes for dif folks.  

I know exactly what you mean by having too many males and then pondering what to do with them.  I think the best that set us free was to process the extras for our own consumption.  It is a tough love and happy meat answer but we eat meat so that is a reasonable solution to have.  Not likely a doable solution for you though.  That just means you are going to work harder at this to find a good resolution.

The other side of the equation is if you have too many boys (stop and think about Canary breeders...they are opposite and WANT more males for singers...tee hee)...it is that decision to STOP breeding because you cannot control the male vs female outcome.  I have some birds that are 15 years of age...ducks and geese live a long time.  I don't breed any more geese right now because we have enough for now--we are full.  I have never processed our own geese but I do have four ganders that I should put in our freezer.  Not like I am clicking my heels together thinking..."Oh goody, can't wait to process something I may or may not like eating and we have FOUR of them...gees eh!"  

Now even I have had oversensitive reactions to some visitors.  Long, long time ago...a nice lady who was a nurse wanted some of our Call Ducks.  So we made arrangements and her husband and her came to see the ducks I had on offer.  We do some biosecure protocols here so we did the whole sterilize their footwear and no entry to the actual pens thingy.  Hmmm...her spouse was a real piece of work... 
​
He was eating an apple with a pocket knife, slicing off pieces and when we got to the duck barn he actually walked up to one of the nesting duck hens and told his wife, "Here, you can pick some of these ones!" when I had had a conversation with both of them that the ducks in the pen over here...were the ones for sale, never mentioning anything about this particular mother on her nest of eggs...good gack...make yourself at home, eh...like you own the joint...

Next he starts telling me about all the male calves he castrates and began waving this knife around...telling me how he used THAT knife to take their manhood away...etc. etc. etc.  You can visualize me staring at this waving around knife, flashing in the sunlight, and getting some pretty gory and gristly visions of the whole process he is describing...him delighting in the drama he was obviously unleashing.  I could not stop thinking about blood residue on that knife and him munching away on those tainted apple slices...I know, I know, getting drawn up in the sensitivity of the matter, but you know, we care about our critters and we are weak at times...like we take off that hard shell of a crab and let our innards hang out for the stomping.  I can be tough as nails in most situations but I can melt into a blubbering ijit when it comes to the critters... 

Needless to say, I rather quickly showed them the front gate and made short work of the VISIT being over...and done--no ducks for sale!  

So, no, you are not necessarily oversensitive in some of the feedback you received on your one "visitor" there.  Often we don't quite imagine how horrible things can stray and hey...your wethers are yours to sell to whomever YOU wanna.  Personally, after a few more visitations like the one with the guy and his penknife & that apple...and I would have had enough of any visitations.  

If your guts tell you something is not quite right...there is so much information that we can't quite put our fingers on that say "NO>>>not this one!"  I say, go with your guts.  

One of the best days for us was when we came to the realization that half of the progeny we choose to produce will be males if we are lucky and the other half, females and I stepped up and decided I would process the extra males for our families consumption.  Some go as far as naming them _pork chop_ and _lamb chop_, etc. and deal with it solemnly and somber like.  Give them a good life, enjoy them and know that some lives will end unnaturally to feed us which I believe makes you appreciate that something lost its life so you could eat meat...respect for the seriousness of it.  There is that saying, "Have LIVEstock, gonna have DEADstock," which is more meant for accidents that happen to all of us with critters...but when you become self-crippled because you have too many males (who fight and end up miserable and it just spirals out of control from there)...we have to take that bull by the horns and deal with it as best we are able...OR as my Hero says, "don't breed any more until they begin to pass away from old age."  When there is extra room at the inn, then breed more because you have space. 

I think you are being responsible and stepping up to your commitment to the wethers...now to find that match made in heaven where you are comfortable with whomever they will be going to.  
Sure is cute to make more and having babies is tons of fun...we all love fun!  

So I guess in order to suit yourself and deserve the fun...the extra males have to be dealt with in a fashion you as a caring, loving person may come to terms with.  We get to step up and be responsible, the tough love thingy to make sure these males are treated decently.  I know I have witnessed persons trying at auction to sell crates full of scrawny egg layer males and not one bid put on them...who wants birds not even good for soup stock making...in some cases, meat is the lowest of the lowest use of domestic farm animals in that if you can't even use them to make food...someone shoulda thought about that result before they tried to shirk the responsibility of creating them in the first place.  The onus lands squarely on our shoulders for what to do with extra males.  You, thankfully have people that WANT these males for a purpose...that in itself is a good thing but now you have to work a little bit harder and make sure YOU like the situation so you can accept their fate being the best you were able to find.  That's admirable.  

If someone gives you the heebees right off, don't let your wethers go with them.  You'll KNOW when and who is the right person and by far and large, I would prefer to feel good about being responsible...not turned off with something not quite right.  Usually there is something VERY wrong when we feel off about a situation.   

Hugs...  

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada


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## Kusanar (Jul 26, 2016)

Latestarter said:


> Nice that someone came along and slapped us upside the head... DUH! Well deserved! Thanks @Kusanar  and Sorry @Dage


Hey, I didn't slap you, just gently pushed you a bit. Lol


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

We found two buyers who want the lot of them thank goodness! First who gets there gets em. We have one doe we have given up on being able to produce...her first and only kid was a stillborn. It was as if she should have carried two kids as there was a second but empty sac. I have tried various things for awhile with no success. Vitamins as per the vet every two weeks instead of 1x a month. Selenium, and iodine...
What happened exactly!?! Does anyone understand this better than me??? I want to help her but really am just ready to send her out with the wethers as NOTHING has worked! Its been about 1.5 yrs since the birth....what gives?


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

Thanks guys. Me and my sisters grew up with a dad who threw chicken remains everywhere. Walk along a pathway to the garden you may step directly on a chicken´s head. We went barefoot a lot so something like this was less than pleasant. We were homeschooled as well so our friends literally WERE our animals! So this combined with the above has NOT helped in where I stand today! I have not always been a vegetarian however! After having suffered who knows what of the liver after a big Thanksgiving dinner and being layed up in bed for over a week hardly able to move or even get up to go to the bathroom...I quit with the meat! It has made a HUGE difference in the health of my liver! My 13 year old son made me my teas and liver cleansing drinks, gave me hot castor oil packs, changed my bed, and help me to the bathroom! I won´t go back there for all the meat in the world! The word liver itself comes from the word LIFE. No liver, no life. 
I know we ALL must make our own choices. And not everyone has the traumas I have nor do we all suffer of liver problems. The earth is off balance in many ways and so some say a vegetarian diet isn´t suffiencent at this time to JUST eat vegetarian and get all the nutrients one needs. We can all only do the best that each of us can! I don´t expect everyone to be like me. I KNOW I am a bit jaded from my experiences! And admittedly YES probably over sensitive! But its hard to change isn´t it? 

YAHWEH grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; 
courage to change the things I can; 
and wisdom to know the difference.


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## Latestarter (Jul 27, 2016)

Can't answer your Q about the reason for the doe's issues... but sure am glad that you found a good placement for your boys.  Personally? if it were me? I'd sell the dry doe and let the buyer know that she's only freshened once and delivered a stillborn with no success freshening since. Let her be a pet along with the wethers... just me...


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

They will be going for meat. Am selling lower than is normal price per live kilo to sell quickly. So whoever takes them will make a profit on them butchered at market. She wouldn´t end up being a pet...but meat.


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## sadieml (Jul 27, 2016)

@Dage -  Just a thought.  If you're selling at a loss anyway, and would like the little girl to have another shot (possibly just as a pet?) you could always try just giving her to someone.  Not everyone who wants pet goats care about breedability (?is that even a word?).  I know someone right now who just desperately wants a pet nigie.  I don't know if you've thought about that or not, but it is another option for you.  btw - I am very glad that you are being cautious about selling to someone who makes you uncomfortable.  God gives us the gift of discernment to judge character, good from bad, and that voice that says "not this one" is usually His warning.  I'm not saying he's a bad person, just maybe not the one to sell your boys to.  Trust your gut is a pretty good byword.


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

sadieml said:


> @Dage -  Just a thought.  If you're selling at a loss anyway, and would like the little girl to have another shot (possibly just as a pet?) you could always try just giving her to someone.  Not everyone who wants pet goats care about breedability (?is that even a word?).  I know someone right now who just desperately wants a pet nigie.  I don't know if you've thought about that or not, but it is another option for you.  btw - I am very glad that you are being cautious about selling to someone who makes you uncomfortable.  God gives us the gift of discernment to judge character, good from bad, and that voice that says "not this one" is usually His warning.  I'm not saying he's a bad person, just maybe not the one to sell your boys to.  Trust your gut is a pretty good byword.



Thank you sadieml, I appreciate that! MY REALITY where I live is: pet goats are probably a huge rarity! Even dogs are treated with a bit of no real care. So when we found a home for the pitbull I was super happy! Dogs are kicked and fed table scraps and usually thin. A pet goat!? Naaah! That would be great, but I won´t live in a world of fantasy/illusion either. I live in South America BTW.


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

As far as the doe, does she still come into heat and just not settle, or no heats? And if she does come into heat is it approximately every 18 days or does she short cycle? 

I have one that did the same as yours but she comes into heat every fall every 18 days like clock work but she never gets pregnant. For mine, she probably had a low grade infection when she kidded as she had one kid that had died in utero which brought on early labor. But I was a new goat owner and didn't know any better and I did nothing. A year later the vet tried a uterine flush with oxcytetracycline but it didn't do any good. Vet said that after a year there is probably too much scar tissue and she will never settle. She is a dairy goat and she still comes back into milk every year about 5 months after her last heat of the year so she sticks around but I sure would love a kid from her. 

Tell us more about your doe and I will give you some more ideas.


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

While I was trying to get her bred (yes she cycles regularly) I was giving her a bit of grain plus her vitamins, iodine, selenium etc. She would carry for about 3 months and then miscarry. I believe this has happened at least 3 times now if not more, I have lost count. After this last time, AND our move...I guess I am vering towards throwing in the towel. Her daddy, Gideon, was a big beautiful Nubian with a band across his middle and he died of a snake bite. She is my only remnant from him which is why I have held on... She tried to take over as queen and wouldn´t bring the herd home so we were left to the only thing I knew left to do so she couldn´t challenge Cookie (the queen) anymore. And that was removing her horns. But am getting sidetracked! She is Dage´s (my Saanen buck) favorite now as he lost his big love and she is regularly in heat. I am out of ideas. When she´s NOT on the vitamins and the extra grain she just keeps cycling non-stop every 18 days. However I had better luck with her and had high hopes when she had the vitamins and extra grain. After the stillborn birth she stayed by herself for a long while. She was NOT well. She ate little. Lay in the shade of the trees and whether she was with fever as was your and also depressed with the loss it´s hard to say. That was towards my beginnings and then and even now have not found a vet I can rely.


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

When she aborts do you actually see a fetus or does she just come back into heat and that is how you know she aborted.  There are many diseases that can cause abortions and if you actually get a fetus of some kind you may be able to send it to a lab for testing.  It is also possible that she is deficient in uterine space and there is nothing you can do about that. 

If she aborts (reabsorbs the fetus) in the first few weeks she may look and act pregnant for up to 3 months and then come back into heat.  Something I read suggested trying a different buck as it may be a genetic incompatibility.


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

I have never seen a fetus. She just starts to fill out and I am LIKE  and then its over.... We do have another buck and have thought to try him. But now with the drought, between having to tether the goats and the dry fields its like...what chance do I really have? A lady I know she is having the same problems with a doe of hers. However her doe has carried many many kids and the stillborn she had was not her first kid. She HAS changed bucks however so maybe it is factor.


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

I bet that your doe is aborting early on and just having a false pregnancy of sorts. 
Here's the article I had bookmarked when researching my doe's problems. It can be feed related too. 

http://kinne.net/ob3.htm


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

Also we are discussing selling out...all livestock, chickens, ducks everything...


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## babsbag (Jul 27, 2016)

I have moments like that... those are hard decisions to make.


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## Latestarter (Jul 27, 2016)

wow... Hope everything is OK... Sometimes you just have to move on for whatever reason. You could always come back to it again later if that's the way you wish to go.


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## sadieml (Jul 27, 2016)

@Dage -  Sorry, I didn't realize you were in S.A..  Yep, I bet the idea of "pet goats" is hilarious there!  For some reason I thought you were in CA..  Anywho...I'm really sorry for everything you're going through with your sweet girl.  Hopefully, it will work out okay for you, soon.


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## Dage (Jul 27, 2016)

yes! If it walks or breathes, its edible! Ant butts, monkeys, river turtles, you name it...


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## alsea1 (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm just trying to wrap my head around ant butts lunch.
I have been to a few countries now and have indeed noticed that dogs are generally treated differently than here in the states. They kinda fend for themselves.


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## Kusanar (Jul 28, 2016)

Dage said:


> yes! If it walks or breathes, its edible! Ant butts, monkeys, river turtles, you name it...


Lol, people here, (southern USA) eat snapping turtles, they are basically mud turtles, I would imagine a river turtle would be better, certainly cleaner!


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## Baymule (Jul 28, 2016)

@Dage, why are you considering selling out? I know times come along when you have to make hard decisions but I hope you can keep your farm!


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## sadieml (Jul 31, 2016)

We saw a thing on tv where they were eating hamsters in S.A..  YUCK!  I mean, I guess they taste a bit like rabbit (?), but they're so tiny.  Why even bother?  ...And, of course, my DD was like "Those people are sick!  How can anyone EAT a hamster?"  Sweet child, she thinks Capybara are overgrown Guinea pigs.  She actually wants one for a pet.  Okay, she pretty much wants one of EVERYTHING for a pet. Or 2 would be twice as nice.  She really does NOT want to eat anything I kill (like the chickens I plan to get soon for meat).  Bless her heart, she loves animals sooo much.  Also, her long-held plan to be a vet has flown.  She has realized she could never deal with the hard part of the job (death). Fortunately, at 14 she still has plenty of time to think of another career.  Maybe she'll be an artist, she's very talented. Takes after DH, as do the boys, I can't draw convincing stick people!


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## Dage (Aug 5, 2016)

Baymule said:


> @Dage, why are you considering selling out? I know times come along when you have to make hard decisions but I hope you can keep your farm!


We are considering moving out of the existing country we are in. If we don´t I may be able to keep them. YAHWEH leads.


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## Baymule (Aug 5, 2016)

Dage said:


> We are considering moving out of the existing country we are in. If we don´t I may be able to keep them. YAHWEH leads.



I understand. It is hard to move animals to another country. Where ya' going?


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