# Giving Medicines



## SheepGirl (Oct 9, 2011)

I am not an administrator or a moderator on Backyard Herds. I am simply a member, much like most of you. *I am not calling anyone out.* However, I do see some illegal activity going on--that is, extra-label drug use. Extra-label drug use is using a drug for it's unintended use (such as an antibiotic labeled for cattle and sheep being recommended to use for goats) or giving more dosage than the label states. _Only a veterinarian can "prescribe" extra-label drug usage._ I see many members with their heart in the right place trying to help out another member's sick animal by suggesting treatments, however, giving LA-200 to a goat or BO-SE to a llama is illegal unless a veterinarian directs you to do so.

So yah  Just be careful of the animal health recommendations you make--and take! You don't know who is watching this board, or who may come across this board.


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## elevan (Oct 9, 2011)

SheepGirl said:
			
		

> _Only a veterinarian can "prescribe" extra-label drug usage._


Giving medications / performing procedures on the advise of a person on the internet alone is not a good practice.  That said _everyone _needs to work with a veterinarian.

Members are giving their OPINIONS and WHAT WORKS ON THEIR FARMS and are not prescribing medications - only a vet can do that.

Giving an OPINION and stating WHAT WORKS ON MY FARM is not illegal.


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## kstaven (Oct 9, 2011)

I agree here. Giving advice or letting a person know what has worked for them is not prescribing. It has the added benefit for the owner to suggest something to their vet they not be aware of or never heard of. Just like the rest of us in any profession we don't know it all and there is always room to learn. This is the first sign I look for in a vet.


This is also an international forum and your reference is to the U.S. or your state as the case may be. Many other countries have label usage that does not appear in the U.S. so your warning would not apply to the whole of the membership as it appears as a blanket statement.


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## freemotion (Oct 9, 2011)

And thank goodness for that.  Not much is labeled for goats, so if we didn't learn what to use and how much, there'd be a lot more dead goats.  I can't imagine much of anything is labeled for alpacas or llamas.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 9, 2011)

Lets use Liquid SPECTAM Scour-Halt as an example. It says on the label: Restricted Drug - Use Only As Directed (California)

This means that the state of California has a law resticting it's use to ONLY as the label directs and/or for the animals mentioned on the label. All other states are legally allowed to use it in other animals or at a higher dosage than the label directs.   Although, in using this example, I will share what I learned through research: Do NOT use in adult goats! Use of this product in adult goats can cause rumen failure, which could lead to the animal's death.

And agreed, people need to do research and find a knowledgable/always learning more veterinarian to work with. Vets who think they know it all, aren't worth our hard earned money.


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## Beekissed (Oct 9, 2011)

And there are those of us who use animal treatments for ourselves and vice versa....      Sometimes, in a pinch, one has to improvise and do the best one can for the survival of the animal.


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## kstaven (Oct 9, 2011)

Beekissed said:
			
		

> And there are those of us who use animal treatments for ourselves and vice versa....      Sometimes, in a pinch, one has to improvise and do the best one can for the survival of the animal.


When ones back is to the wall in an emergency or you don't have a vet available off label or alternatives can make the difference between life and death. That is why I am glad forums like this exist. People can read, learn, be more prepared, and exposed to ideas that one day may save an animals life or greatly increase their herds overall quality of life.


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## Bossroo (Oct 10, 2011)

The product "Beagel Oil" is used for horses' leg muscle issues to relieve sore muscles. I also use it on my own leg. I know of quite a few horse people who also use it on themselves. Works great. No issues.


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## SheepGirl (Oct 11, 2011)

That's a very good point--that these are opinions and not suggestions--however, not everyone is able to separate the two (I didn't until you guys pointed it out to me! )


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## Stacykins (Oct 11, 2011)

Bossroo said:
			
		

> The product "Beagel Oil" is used for horses' leg muscle issues to relieve sore muscles. I also use it on my own leg. I know of quite a few horse people who also use it on themselves. Works great. No issues.


I know I slap bag balm on my paws during the winter time. And it isn't labeled for human use! Wonderful stuff.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 12, 2011)

Stacykins said:
			
		

> Bossroo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use bag balm on my nose when I have a winter cold... it stings at first, but then my nose feels tingly cool


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## ksalvagno (Oct 12, 2011)

There is nothing labeled for alpacas and llamas. So every single drug that we give alpacas and llamas is off label. Thank goodness for vets like Dr David Anderson, Dr David Pugh and Dr Norm Evans (just to name a few) who actually tested and figured out dosages for many drugs. I'm sure this same sentiment goes for vets who have figured out goat dosages since there are so few drugs labeled for goats too.

And I agree, anything that is stated over the internet is not actually prescribing something. It is just a suggestion from experience on what worked on their farm.


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## aggieterpkatie (Oct 12, 2011)

We'd be severely limited with sheep and goats if we used nothing off-label!  If the drugs are even listed on sheep201, I'm sure they're fine listed on here.     Besides, if people don't know by now that stuff posted on the net isn't gospel, I'm not sure we can do much for them anyways.


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## Ms. Research (Oct 13, 2011)

aggieterpkatie said:
			
		

> We'd be severely limited with sheep and goats if we used nothing off-label!  If the drugs are even listed on sheep201, I'm sure they're fine listed on here.   *Besides, if people don't know by now that stuff posted on the net isn't gospel, I'm not sure we can do much for them anyways.*


X2.  Everyone on here states they are not a Veternarian nor do they claim to be.  But since there is a shortage of Livestock Vets out there, having somewhere to get some advise is the best.  That's why I LIKE this forum.  Common sense.   And we can't help people who don't have common sense to realize that this forum is just a guideline and that to RESEARCH and contact a VET when an animal is really sick.   Give me "hands on" over any theories.  Within this forum, you have generations of what folks, experience.  

You can't beat "hands on" for education.  And getting info from a forum of people with LOTS of hands on certainly can help.  Especially knowing what information you need to give a VET when your animal is down.  This forum also helps in that area.  

BYH:  Best place to go for INFORMATION.  Not a matter of direction but information.  No one is telling them they HAVE to do this.  


Way to GO, BYH


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## animalfarm (Oct 13, 2011)

One can not assume a vet is available either. Many times they cannot come in a timely manner because they are busy with other emergencies. A good vet expects you to have stuff on hand and to do something for yourself. Sometimes you have to call an experienced neighbour and that is what this forum is; an experienced neighbour pool for those who don't have an local neighbour on hand.

Here, we have only one, large animal vet clinic. They specialize in cows. They were trained reasonably well with horses as well. Well I have pigs and they don't know anything other then what they read in school. They haven no hands on experience with pigs and they tell me that when they come. So, the vet listens to what I have to say about the pig over the phone, makes an "educated guess "as to what should be done, googles the problem, ect...and then we give a possible treatment a try. I report back the results so they can make a note of it for future reference.

Kind of sounds like what we do on this forum.


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## kstaven (Oct 14, 2011)

animalfarm said:
			
		

> One can not assume a vet is available either. Many times they cannot come in a timely manner because they are busy with other emergencies. A good vet expects you to have stuff on hand and to do something for yourself. Sometimes you have to call an experienced neighbour and that is what this forum is; an experienced neighbour pool for those who don't have an local neighbour on hand.
> 
> Here, we have only one, large animal vet clinic. They specialize in cows. They were trained reasonably well with horses as well. Well I have pigs and they don't know anything other then what they read in school. They haven no hands on experience with pigs and they tell me that when they come. So, the vet listens to what I have to say about the pig over the phone, makes an "educated guess "as to what should be done, googles the problem, ect...and then we give a possible treatment a try. I report back the results so they can make a note of it for future reference.
> 
> Kind of sounds like what we do on this forum.


Sounds like you have a good vet in the making. Far too many come out of school thinking they know it all and have the attitude to match. It takes many about 3-4 years to actually start to realize that school just provided the basic ground work and structure to build upon and only taught them a small percentage of what a real experienced vet has learned along the way. In many cases you find people with more knowledge in specific areas than those who carry credentials. WHY? Because they have done it for years, kept learning and kept an open mind to options.


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## Roll farms (Oct 14, 2011)

When Nissan had a retained placenta issue this spring, I mentioned to the vet (3 yrs out of school, and thankfully willing to learn 'new things') that I was giving her 7cc of Pen G as part of her treatment.

His eyes sorta bugged out and he says, "That's about 4 or 5x more than she needs."  

A discussion ensued where I explained that if she were a cow, yes, the dosage might be 1-2cc per 100#, but goats are NOT cows and metabolize faster, etc. etc. and that I'd used even higher dosages in the 2x I'd treated for listeriosis and 2x I've treated tetanus.

I could see him digesting the info, but he didn't really say much.

Fast forward several months and we're in the office, I asked if a customer of mine had called for thiamine.  This customer had called me earlier in the week w/ a goat that was 'blind, and stumbling' and I'd suggested he contact the vet and get HIS opinion, and suggested he inject her w/ thiamine / Pen G.....the customer hadn't contacted him (I later found out the goat died.  *sigh*)

Dr Bricker told me that based on what I'd told him earlier, he'd researched it, and was now suggesting a "5, 5, 5" approach to any goat w/ a suspected neurological issue (polio, listeriosis, etc.) - 5cc pen g, 5cc thiamine, and 5cc banamine per 100#.

So sometimes us "goat farmers" can help vets, too.  If I hadn't opened up the discussion with him, he may have kept underdosing goats w/ Pen G.

And also, fwiw, I've given Scour Halt to adults a few times.  Currently giving it to Mandy.  I'm also making sure she gets probios 2x a day and keeping an ear on her rumen sounds / eye on her appetite / temp.  
If they've got a 'gut bug', sometimes you have to use a 'gut drug' to fix it.  NOT recommending it, just saying I have used it here w/ success in the past in extreme cases.


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## Livinwright Farm (Oct 15, 2011)

I am glad that you are keeping a close eye on her 
I mentioned what I did about Spectam Scour Halt to people who may not know that it can shut down the adults' rumens. If the right precautions are made(giving the necessary "ingredients such as probiotics & Vitamin B1) and the goat is monitored closely(listening for rumen sounds, checking temps) it _can_ be done.
I would rather use scour check in adults though... since it has not been known to shut down the rumen.


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## elevan (Oct 15, 2011)

It is very important for animal owners / handlers to do thorough research and discuss with a vet before administering treatment to any animal.  This definitely includes understanding the bad things that can happen as a side effect of treatment.  This goes for chemical and natural treatments.

I love the wealth of information on this website but at the same time I have a great vet's office with 5 vets on staff to call on.  

I know that in some areas of the country finding a good livestock vet is difficult.  That is exactly why members should seek out a vet and establish a relationship before something goes wrong.  Having that relationship will make a vet more comfortable with giving advice via phone, selling you medicines to keep on hand and more.  

Find a vet - build a relationship - do your research and keep needed medications on hand...then you'll be fairly ready for whatever your critters throw your way.


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## Queen Mum (Oct 22, 2011)

Just reading this thread was an education. I learned a lot.  Thanks!


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