# Southern by Choice's Teaching Moments- Indoor LGD! Badger



## Southern by choice

I decided to start this thread based on the many calls and e-mails we get on "how to" work with pups, started pups, adults etc.  As things come to mind I will post the scenario's.  I also thought it beneficial to share the moments we have on our farm with our pups in training. Some posts may be "praise posts" whether our dogs or others that we get feedback on and the things the dog/s are doing that is a "big-deal". Young dogs make big steps and I believe it encourages others to keep an eye out for those big things their own dog is doing and praise them for it.

Because this is a "Backyard" farming group many have LGD's on very little land and the dogs are being raised in the family farm environment... quite different from those covering hundreds or a thousand acres. Often these dogs have a strong relationship with their masters, this is a good thing. 

I wish there was a way to categorize the posts.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Yay!! I love this idea Southern, thank you so much! I'm sure I'll be able to use some of the info you post here on my LGD!! I already started to "set him up", as you had described in a post where a LGD pup growled at a goat. You set him up, corrected him, and then the next time he gave the behavior you were looking for! Tysm!!


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## frustratedearthmother

Wonderful!  I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread.  Thank you!!


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## bonbean01

Yup...count me in on this thread!!!!


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## animalmom

I'm in!


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## Southern by choice

Teaching moment! 

Let me preface this with saying we raise our dogs to eat together, we do not condone aggression but do allow dogs to eat their food without having everything steal their food. Generally we put several large troughs out, put the food in and they will go back and forth between troughs, eating together.

This didn't happen tonight. For whatever reason only one very large trough was out. Too many heads in the trough.

Two pups (they will be six months tomorrow) had a go. 
It was a doozy!  

Before I continue, please remember I train, I know when to end something, when to let it go, as well as how far. NEVER will I allow any dogs in my care to cause injury or fight to a point that is unhealthy. EVER. Mostly noise and tussling and it is all done. Very rare happenings with our dogs.

The two pups went head to head and I walked down went in and stayed there... it was ALOT of noise but both dogs were ok and it then increased to "I will win" stage. One pup was on his back on the ground the other overpowering him. The one that had overpowered him had done so 3x but each time the other managed to get out from underneath and get in position. 

Keep in mind this was a very quick event. In no way was this a "dog fight" - I would never allow such thing. I watched and waited and finally broke it up. I broke it up by saying "ENOUGH" and put my hand on the neck of the one on top. He backed off. The second dog was fine but boy was his pride wounded.  He knew he'd "lost" although the reality is he really didn't. I'll explain in a minute.
He walked away head down. Totally humiliated.

I went to the second dog, knowing how humiliated he was.
YES! They do "lose face". 
He would not look up at me. I took his face in my hands and lifted his head so I could look him in his eyes. 
My words to him- " You did great boy, you held your own! You are a great dog, I am so proud of you. You never gave up! Good dog!"
Gave him a head rub and a kiss (yes a kiss) and left him to regroup.

I was sharing with someone the other day that they are very guardy now and I have no doubt they could take a coyote.

Why did I wait and watch and what was I looking for?  What did I see?

First I am watching for dominance and to see if  true  position. 
Second their methods and strengths. Then how they handle getting out of a situation.  I am watching to see will the dog being overtaken submit? Give up? run away? Will the downed dog stay in the altercation, continue and persevere?  

These things let us see whether the young guardian stay in it? If so then you know that this dog will lay it's life down for it's livestock. This dog will never give up.

There is always more to see in the one getting the worst of it. It shows you what the dog is made of.

Conclusion- Both dogs have tenacity. Neither dog will ever give up.
The dog overpowered proved himself to be a dog that will absolutely stay and fight off a predator to the death if necessary.
The dog that overpowered handled the changes in position and how the 2nd dog moved.  Both showed great skill, speed, and focus. Yet still responded to their master which is required at this age... of course that will change as they mature.

This is why I say the one pup really did not "lose" but showed incredible fortitude.

Questions welcomed.


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## animalmom

It isn't that I don't have questions but rather I don't know how to phrase them.  i understand the need to reassure the second dog.  

How, outside of your vast million year experience with dogs, do you know when to stop the argument?  My three ranch dogs, not livestock guardians, have their job of keeping things in the pens in the pens and things that don't live in the pen out of the pen.  They are good at that, so good that when I load goats into transport cages they will follow the truck out wanting their goats back in the pen.  Single minded.

Rarely do they get into down and out disagreement with each other, nevertheless, I worry about what to do if there is a real fight.  What does one who is not trained and experienced like you do to stop an escalation prior to a real dog fight?

The three dogs are: a border collie/red heeler spayed female (top dog) who is 5 1/2 years old, a Rhodesian Ridgeback going on 4 years (very submissive but in the one and only dog fight she gave as good as she got and "stayed in the fight", not spayed, and her son a Rhodesian/lab neutered male almost 11 months old, who's favorite word is "What?".

I don't know if you have suggestions, and it is ok if you don't.  This thread will be an education regardless, and I appreciate your sharing your teaching moments.  Dogs are only trained as well as the owners are trained and I am willing to learn.


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## Southern by choice

I'd ask you and anyone else reading to try this exercise. 

Get a stopwatch or clock with a secondhand- *now do NOTHING else but for 1 minute- to 1 minute 30 seconds. YEP 60-90 seconds do nothing...* no reading, no talking, simply nothing but standing there with no distractions and to where you are not even visually engaged.

I'll wait for you to do this before I explain.


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## Southern by choice

Anyone doing the exercise let me know did you do 60 seconds 90 seconds or both?


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## Baymule

My female GP and my female Australian Shepherd despise each other. Polly the Aussie will attack Paris the GP and the fight is on. Or Polly will snarl at Paris and that is an affront to the Queen's dignity. The fight is on. I go to great lengths to keep then separate.

Breaking up the fight? Last one took my DH and me to pull them apart and Polly went to the vet to get the gash in her head stapled. 

If we didn't jump in, Paris would kill Polly. Polly has always been the instigator and goes down fighting, but she would lose.


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## Southern by choice

Baymule said:


> My female GP and my female Australian Shepherd despise each other. Polly the Aussie will attack Paris the GP and the fight is on. Or Polly will snarl at Paris and that is an affront to the Queen's dignity. The fight is on. I go to great lengths to keep then separate.
> 
> Breaking up the fight? Last one took my DH and me to pull them apart and Polly went to the vet to get the gash in her head stapled.
> 
> If we didn't jump in, Paris would kill Polly. Polly has always been the instigator and goes down fighting, but she would lose.



What things have you done to correct these issues?


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## frustratedearthmother

I couldn't do it, lol.  I tried to keep my mind distraction free, but nope.  In fact, earlier this week I had an MRI and needed to stay perfectly still.  I managed to be  still physically, but allll I could think about was moving.  I wanted to blink, I wanted to swallow, I wanted to scratch my nose...


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## Southern by choice

LOL - if others try the exercise they will really get to see how long a literal minute is.

Most of the time we use the word minute as an idiom.  
New York minute is now and an Egyptian minute can mean 3 days... but minute in a literal sense is a really long time.

I am going to wait and see what others say and how they respond then I will get back to @animalmom  's question.


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## mikiz

Not LGDs but a friend's dog who is reactive to every single dog she meets, was fine until their other dog grew up a bit and suddenly it was to-the-death. Mastiff x I believe, has hip dysplasia and the owner is a purely R+ trainer. Says she's worked with her for a few years and she's better than what she was but still tries to maul most dogs, especially anxious or excited ones.
I'd like to know what you'd do to deter or correct this behaviour @Southern by choice


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## Southern by choice

Honestly I really couldn't say. The dog would have to be observed and evaluated to see what the actual triggers are and how the handler/owner handles the dog.

Most dogs that are aggressive and have issues with going after other dogs are directly related to how the handler/owner deals with the dog. Dogs feed off the owners signals way more than people think.
Most of the time they are reinforcing the very issue they are trying to eliminate but are not aware they are doing so.
A few years? Yeah, time for a different style of training IMO.


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## Southern by choice

I just had to add I find the theory and style of the "R" training somewhat disturbing... and yes I will go on a tangent for a minute... The same crap style of parenting is also an issue. This whole thing of replacement and redirect and refocusing TEACHES NOTHING!
And people wonder why we have so many ill behaved pets and ill behaved children. Sick of hearing people "redirect" little Johnny  when he is throwing a tantrum instead of letting little johnny know a tantrum is unacceptable ... Little Johnny grows up never hearing no, never realizing his behavior is undesirable and yet somehow the parents think he will outgrow it...

Dogs same thing... 
No means no, yes means yes. I believe in a great deal of praise when it comes to dogs but I also believe in blame and shame. So to speak.
I absolutely believe in developing relationship. I expect my dogs to succeed. If I have a young dog (meaning older pup) in while kidding and that pup starts to lick or go for the afterbirth hanging off a doe and I redirect but never teach it NO how will it know that it isn't acceptable? 
Alternative behaviors... oh brother.
What is the alternative behavior , what should it be replaced with when a LGD decides chasing or mouthing livestock is ok or fun? What about poultry? 

I guess you could say I believe in teaching self-control. The dog can be taught self- control and learn that proper behavior is a reward unto itself. A happy dog is a well trained dog. 

Getting off my soapbox now. Tangent over. Resume all normal activity.


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## mikiz

^ I LOVE YOU, this has been my founding belief since forever, I wish more people were like you.

Interested to hear what the 60-90sec clear mind thing was about!


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## Mike CHS

I went with 90 seconds but it does seem like a looooooonnnnng time.  

I guess you could call that a Tennessee minute since nothing gets done in a hurry.  They have a saying that everyone adheres to and that is --  if you have to get somewhere in a hurry ..... you don't go.

I got bit by my Aussie when she got into it with the neighbors big lab.  She did it instinctively and quit fighting as soon as she realized what she had done.  Fortunately I was able to keep a hand on until she went submissive.  I don't think many people know how vicious those cute Aussies can be but she hasn't done anything to the Lab since then.


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## Baymule

Southern, I just keep Polly and Paris separated.  Polly is utterly devoted to me and doesn't want to share. So she piles into Paris whom she sees as a rival. And the fight is on. The enmity between them is deep and irreconcilable. Just easier to keep them apart than trying to erase the hatred between them.

At one time they tolerated one another. Four years ago my mom had a stroke and I stayed with her for several months. I came home every day for a few hours to cook supper for DH, Mom and me, then back to mom's house. The dogs got all weirded out, missing me. Feeding the chickens, with Polly at my side, Paris came up for attention and Polly attacked her. They absolutely hate each other now. Polly is a smart alecky snot and will snarl at Paris through the wire fence. Scolding, firmly showing my displeasure, short of beating her, LOL, does no good.

I value each dog as individuals. Both were grown when I got them and you already know Paris was a problem child. They will never be friends. Ever.


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## Blue Sky

Thank you for this thread. My "boys" were giving me some trouble. I'd done a lot wrong, got two brothers about a year old with some exposure to goats but not sheep. Job changes kept me from training. Chasing and rough play became issues. I did the suggested obedience, separated them to different pastures and the hot Summer temps slowed undesirable behavior. They are so much better now and will be great LGDs. I have been lambasted for using shelter dogs  (pun intended) there can be lots of set backs but I think most LGD breeds are smart enough to learn from their mistakes and ours. I would recommend having an experienced dog to help train especially if you're just starting.


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## Beekissed

Just got a 2  mo. old LGD pup and am watching this thread with great interest.  I think I have the basics under control but will watch for specifics on how you train yours for life around the small livestock, such as chickens.  I'm starting some basic training on that tomorrow and would love to hear about what you do initially...the very first contact with chickens and the pups and how that turns out, the reasoning, etc.  

I've previously trained a dog on chickens as a pup and it was a complete success, but each dog is different so will be interested to see what you do with all your dogs as a consistent training tool.   This pup is already keyed into our voices and intonation, very eager to please and works for affection rather than food reward, so I'm thinking it will show a good response to the training.  

We got him on Wed. and my son worked with him the past few days.  He's already pretty consistent with "come" when not too excited, sits well already, follows well and is very responsive to corrections.  We'll keep at it and see how he goes along.  Will be watching this thread to help me as I go along.  

This pup has some sketchy breeding, is GP/Anatolian/Maremma mix, sire is even tempered and appropriate in behavior, dame seems to be a nervous aggressive dog...barks more from fear than from aggression, but seems to have had no socialization or obedience training at all, so she's had no direction or leadership that I can see.   Could be a different story if she had some leadership, but don't know.  

I picked the most calm, laid back~but still engaged and alert~ pup I could spot in the crowd.  We'll see how it goes.


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## Blue Sky

Be patient. An eight week old pup has a lot of growing and learning to do. Likely afraid of noises, night time (they know there are predators that would eat them) and pup needs to be introduced to stock gradually and watched. There is a myth that pup can be put into a flock and will magically bond/presto no work or supervision. It takes months esp w no older dog as mentor. Take your time, expect setbacks. Patience and love win the day.


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## Beekissed

I've got an older dog as a mentor, so he's not alone...and he's a great mentor.  After the first few nights he stopped barking/howling...seems to have learned that this will not get the attention he desires.   Older dog sleeping right outside his pen, so he's got a comforter.  

This isn't my first rodeo with training dogs but it's still nice to have feedback and a sounding board.  Tomorrow I start him with my role in his life, his status in the farmyard in regards to chickens, etc.  Just some basic learning about where he fits in.


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## Blue Sky

Ok. I just encounter so many who chuck pups out think it's a magic bullet. I work w rescue. Good luck.


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## Beekissed

Thank you!  I won't chuck him out...he'll do fine and I'll give him every chance to learn and fulfill his doggy purpose.


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## Beekissed

Worked with Ben first thing this morning.  He did well on leash walking, has learned to sit down almost immediately when I stop walking...for this he got good lovin' and a small piece of bologna.  He's calm and doesn't try to get out in front, though he seems to have trouble working on the left side...kept trying to cross over to the right and I'll have to work on that. 

Did some training on a bound chicken and it took only moments until he seemed to understand I wanted him to ignore the chicken no matter what it does...it flopped and squawked, jumped and flapped...he sat down, facing away from it and looked in my face.  Fast learner, that pup. 

Then I worked with him in a flock of the chickens, all of them darting to and fro for corn on the ground...took two corrections and he seemed to understand he was to ignore them completely.  He got much love and bits of meat for that response.  He would look at them briefly and then return his attention to me, sitting calmly all the while.  Good dog.

I worked with him on returning to his pen, sitting and staying while I closed the gate.  He took more training on that than anything else this morning but he did finally "get" what I wanted.  Good pup. 

I'll let him loose today while I work outside and see how he responds to the chickens when he thinks I'm not looking...that's the true test of what he's learned or what any kid learns...what they do when Mom isn't around.  

Tomorrow we'll repeat all of that and see if he remembers any of it.  Training session didn't go any longer than 15-20 min. but that will increase as he ages and can pay attention longer.

Any good pointers on training around chickens that I'm not thinking of?  I let him sniff one while it sat on my lap but didn't let him get too excited about it all.  I'll catch one up tonight once again and repeat it all tomorrow with a larger bird, then the next day with a smaller bird.


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## Poka_Doodle

Beekissed said:


> Worked with Ben first thing this morning.  He did well on leash walking, has learned to sit down almost immediately when I stop walking...for this he got good lovin' and a small piece of bologna.  He's calm and doesn't try to get out in front, though he seems to have trouble working on the left side...kept trying to cross over to the right and I'll have to work on that.
> 
> Did some training on a bound chicken and it took only moments until he seemed to understand I wanted him to ignore the chicken no matter what it does...it flopped and squawked, jumped and flapped...he sat down, facing away from it and looked in my face.  Fast learner, that pup.
> 
> Then I worked with him in a flock of the chickens, all of them darting to and fro for corn on the ground...took two corrections and he seemed to understand he was to ignore them completely.  He got much love and bits of meat for that response.  He would look at them briefly and then return his attention to me, sitting calmly all the while.  Good dog.
> 
> I worked with him on returning to his pen, sitting and staying while I closed the gate.  He took more training on that than anything else this morning but he did finally "get" what I wanted.  Good pup.
> 
> I'll let him loose today while I work outside and see how he responds to the chickens when he thinks I'm not looking...that's the true test of what he's learned or what any kid learns...what they do when Mom isn't around.
> 
> Tomorrow we'll repeat all of that and see if he remembers any of it.  Training session didn't go any longer than 15-20 min. but that will increase as he ages and can pay attention longer.
> 
> Any good pointers on training around chickens that I'm not thinking of?  I let him sniff one while it sat on my lap but didn't let him get too excited about it all.  I'll catch one up tonight once again and repeat it all tomorrow with a larger bird, then the next day with a smaller bird.


We have sorta a LGD, she is a Black Lab but loves the chickens even though they don't like her. Just hit the dog used to seeing the chickens


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## Baymule

Bee, I was given a GP because she killed chickens. Her previous owners just turned her loose on 3 acres of free range chickens. Stupid people.  It took two years to turn her around, but she made the best chicken guard ever!

I have a 10 month old pup, been giving him chicken lessons. I am just now able to free range my hens, as we completed enough fence to keep neighborhood dogs out. So he didn't have a lot of exposure. He went in the coop with me because he liked the chicken feed, and he behaved well. 

I work with him several days a week. I put up the other two dogs and let him out. He and I follow the hens, he gets lots of praise and good dog. I tell him firmly, MINE, MY CHICKENS. He has tried to pounce several times, I grab him by the collar and scold. A few times he started stalking them, a firm NO changed his mind. I work with him 30-45 minutes each time. 

I think he is doing pretty good. He is smart and wants to please. The hens are not afraid of dogs and walk right up to him. Yesterday he laid down next to me and the hens scratched contentedly all around him.


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## Poka_Doodle

Once they know about only eating chicken food instead of the chickens it will be good but that is a correct point of the dogs like the chicken food


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## Beekissed

Didn't get to do structured training this morning, but every second of every day spent with these dogs is a training moment, so I just let it be.   He learned to sit calmly and wait to be let out of his pen and also to sit calmly and wait to be fed...every day will be reinforcement of these things.  

He learned to come, to sit and to stay today as we chored around with this or that.  He learned to not walk inside my stride or he gets kicked as my legs move.  He learned to not eat Jake's food but that he can eat his own without Jake bothering him too.  

He followed me everywhere I went and would lie down patiently while we worked in one place, even took a nap during that time.   He learned to not even let it look like you are running towards the chickens as you traverse the yard, as this will get you a verbal correction...and he reacted to the corrections again today, which is all good.  

He's coming along well for such a young pup.  He had a fresh scrape on his nose this morning, so he is forcing his nose into some crack or other in an attempt to escape his pen....I'm guessing he will stop doing that when it hurts enough.  

He's learning to be quiet while in his pen, which I love.  He ate a few apples today...good for him.  This pup is pretty thin and has low energy, so I'm working to build him up, get rid of his worms, etc....won't take long to turn him into a bouncing, rolly polly, frisky youngin'.


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## samssimonsays

I agree with Southern, one minute is a LOOONG time. When you know your dogs, you will know "when" to step in in my opinion. You know their signals and you are in tune with them. 

With our GP, I raise rabbits, we made sure he was around them every second he could be. Even then, they were in the barn or cages so having gotten him in the Minnesota winter I tried to get a rabbit outside with him but it was too cold and wet with snow, deep snow that year yuck! And once the snow melted and I did get one out in the yard with him he got over excited and came barreling across the yard, hit the rabbit and sent him tumbling. I put the dog into a submissive hold immediately and when he quit fighting me, we had a lot of dominance issues with our Pyr, we laid the rabbit on top of him. And for a minute he just laid there. After that, he was never rough with a rabbit in the yard again. He knew the difference between our rabbits and wild ones and the poor thing was probably super confused as we had a gray squirrel that was part of the wildlife rehab center living with us that he was gentle with as well. I had many people tell me to put an old animal with them that I no longer want because they will kill their first charge.... I solely believe that if they are trained and they learn by us teaching and guiding them it is possible to avoid such a thing. All it took was a shock collar to scold our collie when she would chase the goats when we first got them. We needed to get her attention because she was so fixated on them and we couldn't reach her. One time and she learned it was unacceptable.


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## Blue Sky

None of my roosters have tail feathers lol. all alive however.


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## Beekissed

The pup is learning like lightning and I couldn't be more pleased with his behavior and progress! I keep thanking God for His grace in that matter, because I really needed an easy dog at this time in my life...I'm too busy right now to really work on him...I'll be able to do that more in a couple of weeks, so the fact that he can be out with Jake during the day and is learning how we live is a HUGE blessing!

He has learned very quickly that he doesn't get out of his pen by jumping and barking and lunging against the gate. When I walk up to let him out now, he sits and waits. Also only took two days of feeding him with Jake for him to learn that he has to sit calmly and wait or he doesn't get food. Only took a day for him to realize that I don't want him mouthing Aliza, my 19 mo. grandchild...today he approached her calmly and when she waved him away, he ducked, moved away and didn't come back to the object of play. Just went over a little ways and laid down.  All other times he approached her it was calmly and he didn't use his mouth, just his nose.

I haven't seen him loping towards the chickens today, the chickens have acted calmly around him so I can tell he hasn't been harassing them when my back is turned and he has stayed up in Jake's territory all day...when he attempts to follow me back to the house, I just tell him to "go back"...and he does!

I am VERY impressed with this young pup's capacity to learn...almost as quick as Jake.  I really am starting to love this little guy.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Aww! That's wonderful!!!


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## Beekissed

Ben continues to make progress and surprise us with his ability to learn, how docile and sweet he is about being corrected and how quickly he learns things by watching and example.  

He is out all day now unattended around the chickens and hasn't been chasing them.  As he ages he may grow more playful and energetic in that regard and want to burn off excess energy by chasing or even may develop some hunting type behavior towards them.  I'll be watching for opportunities to correct these actions and will still be penning him while we are away from home until I can trust him completely.  

For now I've been teaching him about entering the coop(or any building) only when invited, to wait patiently for food and also to be comfortable having food taken away from him by humans.  Still working on consistent "come" and "sit" and will add "down" when I'm ready to work with him as a routine each morning and evening.  He's already learned "off" and is not putting his paws up on us any longer.  The hard part is getting visitors to not derail his training on this...why do people feel like it's okay to invite puppies to put their paws up on their legs and laps?  

He's learning to return to his pen without protest and to wait without yelping to be let out of the pen each morning.  Some nights he gets to stay out of the pen to patrol with Jake...he's always exhausted the next day after working at night, so I'm alternating these nights until he gets used to it.    I loved it that Jake is teaching him just what is worthy of a bark and what is not....one thing I don't want is for him to bark at everything that moves.  

He continues to walk right behind my right foot when I walk and does so when on a leash as well, which is like a miracle to me.  It's like he's come to me already partially trained, which is wonderful....that pack walk has always been a challenge for me to teach young dogs.  He's also already recognized~out of all the humans coming and going~ who leads the pack here, which is pretty intuitive for such a young pup.  That little, soulful puppy face looking at me all the time, just waiting for approval...well...that's just the cutest thing!    I give him MUCH affection for good behavior, as it seems to be the only thing he works towards.   He's not food motivated at all.  

His appetite and energy levels have improved, he's eating better and I've not seen one puppy pile in the yard yet, so he's going potty where I want him to....so far I'm tickled pink about this pup.


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## goatgurl

I'm so glad he is working out well.  just remember he is a baby and will go thru so many stages before he is really the super dog you want.  not just teenage people but teenage dogs can be a true pia.   sounds like you have it under control.   consistency and patience are the keys.


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## bonbean01

So happy that things are going well!!!  I had times when I thought our girl Keera would never be a LGD, but just my big white pet.  She gave me trials and frustrations and I kept at it and at it and at it, then changed course....she turned a year in July and something finally clicked for her...but it took that long and I considered a shock collar on a few occasions, but didn't get one...and today I am so terribly happy that finally she is a for real LGD   I think some dogs are easier than others, but I also think it was my inexperience adding to it....Southern has been awesome with sharing her expertise 

If your Ben has some relapses to crazy puppy...don't despair...sounds like he has the right stuff


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## Beekissed

I expect he'll finally hit the age where his prey drive kicks into gear and I may have trouble around the chickens....I'm hoping this early exposure will be key in helping him see them as part of the farm scenery instead of squeaky toys.  

My older dog has an extremely high prey drive and has many kills to his name but never saw the chickens or sheep as prey and I'm hoping that was due to his early exposure and training on them.  He's even friends with the deer in the yard and I'm hoping this pup develops that attitude as well.  So far he is...we have a young deer eating apples next to the coop as I type this...he has been there off and on all morning and the pup hasn't even looked at him when he walks past.  I'm liking that he's mimicking the older dog in this.  

This evening he gets his first real training in loading up in the car, staying in the car until I say he can dismount, and being around other dogs and people who give mixed, excited signals.  He'll be on the leash at all times so I can give him corrections in areas I notice he needs them.  I want his focus to stay on me while we are out and about.  

Today he got another lesson in entering the chicken coop...only took two corrections this time before he sat calmly and waited for me to come out.  He did great!


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## Beekissed

Ben has been behaving like a dream, especially around the chickens. He also is learning quickly(two corrections only!) about not getting on the porch, even when we are all up there talking and having fun. He can come up the ramp but may not enter the porch...that's just one of Mom's rules. No dogs on the porch unless specifically invited...and even then it's a true rarity. She just doesn't like dog hair, mud, dirt, filth(her words), etc. on her porches. 

He's learning to heel during the walk, hand signals for sitting/staying, to not use his mouth on people, to "leave it" when we take something from him, and to stay out from under foot when there is a center of working(i.e., splitting and transporting wood)....all of these things he is learning well and quickly. This is not a stubborn puppy at all...very sweet and serious dog to train. I'll admit it....I'm in love.


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## Southern by choice

So I had hoped to give lots of tips but as you all know I have been absent for other reasons. Lots of "dog" stuff lately... have a few things to share but don't have a lot of time .

This post is about *TRUSTING* your dog!


Yesterday was just beautiful out and I decided I wanted to just go out and love on my babies. Measured and weighed them. Still 110-115 and 30” tall (32 with hair lol). I have been busy doing so many other things that I haven't really just gone out and loved on the pups/dogs for a few days... it has just been a "Hi guys" and a quick pat on the head when I am feeding.

*"Not Leo" *(Not Leo is one of the 9 month Anatolian/Pyrenees Pups- yes that is his silly name) wasn't with the pack, I looked around thinking where is that dog? I look over at the tree cluster by the L shape section of the field and I see him laying there but chest upright head held high... watching. I called him several times... he would not come.

*This is an important lesson for newbies!
I cannot stress this enough.... TRUST the dog.* Not Leo loves his people and by this time 3 of us were in the field loving on the dogs... *he stayed put*. I kept my eye on him... he remained alert and watching – looking here there and all around. I* KNOW *there is a reason and I am waiting to see if he is doing what I think he is doing .

After about 20 minutes or so I told the dogs “all-right enough” momma needs to go love on her goats!   I head toward the other end of the field and the dogs went about their business.

*ONLY THEN did Not Leo get up and come say hi.*

*Here is why*... Not Leo remained “on duty” because all the other dogs were “occupied” he stayed focused on his job. Once the pups were all back on duty *then* he left his post.

I share this because even though I promote basic skills taught at 16 weeks* never overtrain your LGD *. This was not "disobedience" as you would look at a pet breed as. *This is THE nature of the LGD breeds. They need to make decisions based on the herd, to be trusted to do what they think they need to do. 

By demanding that he "come" when he was called and even retrieving him, in this scenario, would send mixed messages.
It would be against his nature, against what is ultimately the goal of his being- a guardian.  This stresses the dog and an unskilled owner can cause the dog to start to lose all respect. When that happens the dog will become defiant. When the dog loses respect for it's master the master generally will try to hunker down and demand it. This can turn into an ugly situation. 
*
Some time ago one of our Pyr pups owners had called and had learned this lesson as they had forced the dog from her field to go for a walk. The dog put up a fuss not wanting to leave the field- first clue should have been that the dog who loves a walk fought about coming out. Long story short the dog kept pulling and tugging and wanting to get back to it's field- What the owner didn't know that the dog did was there was something closeby and on the outer perimeter. After she was placed back in her field she went running- there had been a stray dog on the very back fenceline.

Allowing your dog to become the great dog they are destined to be means allowing them to make decisions early... they will start making decisions by 12 weeks... allowing them to develop their autonomy, explore, make decisions, correct for only major issues (such as poultry chasing/killing and jumping up, food aggression) but keeping their confidence high and not having too many "no's". 

Not Leo is the most interesting and complex dog I have seen. Everyday I am more surprised and impressed by this dog. I may do a "Not Leo" post in the future.


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## frustratedearthmother

He sounds incredible...  My gal Maddie is somewhat like that.  I went out to feed the other day and saw her way out back in the field even though the goats had come up for their evening feeding.  I thought it was weird and called her and called her and she totally ignored me.  I was too busy to investigate right then, but later I did.  I walked out to where she was and right across the fence in the neighbors pasture was a freshly dead raccoon.  I have no idea what happened to the raccoon, or why it was there, or if she was the reason for its demise, but she was on guard... even against my wishes.

These dogs are so amazing!


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## frustratedearthmother

stoopid double post... ugh


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## goatgurl

good for not leo!  and i love his name by the way.  don't you just love the dogs.


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## Beekissed

I love this info, Southern!  That's exactly what I needed to know as I train this breed of which I'm only partially familiar.  I love the example you've given and I think Not Leo is an amazing dog as well.  I'll keep that in mind as this young dog of mine grows and if he seems independent on some things I'll have to trust he is following his instinct instead of just being distracted and disobedient.  

Excellent teaching!!!!


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## Southern by choice

A couple of things- Cold air moving in and deer season is in.. Deer bucks in full rut= COYOTES! They have been out in full force!
Remember your dogs will be loud during this season. Our dogs are set off so many times at night they are exhausted in the day. They are also wanting to eat a little more - we increase food when we see it is necessary.

Not really a teaching moment but thought I would share a few pics from today... the boys were playing their "LGD games". Keep in mind I have 2 bitches in heat. So hormones are a bit high and tough on the pups. Chunk is 18 months and is their "supervisor". He doesn't let things get too out of hand.

Silver from a young pup has ALWAYS been the one to say "hey- chase me" he gets the games started. He loves it and all the dogs come running.




They all play and practice their skills- Chunk(Male Pyr) watches closely, sometimes plays along but more often makes sure they don't get out of hand.



All was going well til one of them got too "into the game". Chunk gets "PT" off Silver.



Silver gets out but PT is playing too rough (you can see his teeth) Silver is in front looking back like whoa dude- Chunk is on PT- Chunk is a great supervisor and corrects PT.




Chunk decides games are over.  
There is a reason we do like to put pups with non parent stock.
1) Parent stock have their favorites which means the strongest pup will always get the favor. Not always great for lower ranking dogs.
2) The "friends" only goes so far. Chunk is a young dog and each pup wants to be his buddy... he always keeps a balance.
3) Parent dogs sometimes will not let other LGD's correct their pups.

These are for @Beekissed 
This is MY boy Blue-* he is* STUBBORN, STRONG WILLED, OBSTINATE, highly intelligent, a lead dog, dominant. He is his mother to the T with the love and arrogance of his sire "D".
I tend to do best with dogs that have these traits. These are the ones I usually keep. 
He hangs with Chunk mostly.
I LOVE dogs like this- why? Because I connect with them best and the trust between the dog and me is so great that I know that when it matters, really matters, they will do whatever I ask.

Thought you'd get a kick out of this! 
This is Blue- asked him to move several times so we could rake out the spent hay in the loafing area. Oh, he HEARS me... look at his eyes... they say "um nah, I am comfortable". I raked around him.   So I did exactly what the LGD's do- I said fine... stay there.
You know LGD's have to let you know it is "their idea" to do something, Not yours- that is their control.  I  do work with their language and respect their ways in return that dog is truly the most loyal dog ever. 

Give me a stubborn dog any day   and yes that is Ruby's ear in the pic (The goat-dog)


I wish you could see this close up- it is truly the Nah I don't think so look!




Yeah.... he moved.


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## Mike CHS

The difference in training an LGD vs a herding dog will take some changes in thinking on my part.   

Both of my sheep herding dogs often thing my flanking commands aren't the right thing to do (and sometimes they are right ) but they have to do it whether they want to or not.


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## Southern by choice

Mike CHS said:


> The difference in training an LGD vs a herding dog will take some changes in thinking on my part.
> 
> Both of my sheep herding dogs often thing my flanking commands aren't the right thing to do (and sometimes they are right ) but they have to do it whether they want to or not.



It is very different. My GSD is well trained. She will "out" immediately, stop on a dime...do whatever whenever she is told. Although anything resembling the "suit" will trigger her. She has made much progress though.

If I raised her like an LGD she would be useless and if I raised an LGD like a GSD it would destroy them. 

So different but truly a joy with both kinds of dogs.


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## Beekissed

Southern, I have a question for you about Ben.  Now, you and I differ in that I don't like defiance of a direct order, even if they have to do it slowly, they should do it.  LGD or no, that's the rules for staying here...no belligerence is tolerated here, be it dog or chicken.  

Now, I don't give orders willy nilly just to get a thrill of having an animal obey me but just to get through my day, like "move" so I can walk quickly from one point to another without tripping on a dog or chicken.   Or "out" when they go somewhere I do not allow them...I'm not one to be fond of a dog that ignores me on such things.  I don't have time for brats, nor am I inclined to keep one around, so this pup is being assessed every day for a willingness to work with the program we have already established.  

This evening Ben did something I've never seen one of my dogs do and I'm not sure I like it but I may be misunderstanding his purpose.  I went in the coop to feed and we've already established he is not allowed in there~out is the command if he tries to follow and he's been doing really well with this up until this evening...usually he will compromise by either standing with his face at the pop door or lying down right outside the pop door. 

This evening I didn't leave after feeding and sat down to watch the chickens...this seemed to cause him to be more intent on getting in that coop~ it seemed he was pushing the boundary...he put his head in the door and I repeated the out order.  He just looked at me and proceeded to put one paw in the door...I advanced on him and repeated the OUT but more forcefully.  He backed up and started barking at me.  Now, this dog has rarely ever barked but has done it a few times lately when he is forced to obey a simple command like "out", or "no" when he's trying to jump up....is this a "getting too big for my britches" moment that needs more intense training?   I'm inclined to nip it in the bud and I did and he seemed rather cowed by it all but only tomorrow will tell if he pushes that boundary again.


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## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> Southern, I have a question for you about Ben. Now, you and I differ in that I don't like defiance of a direct order, even if they have to do it slowly, they should do it. LGD or no, that's the rules for staying here...no belligerence is tolerated here, be it dog or chicken.



The thing is it is NOT belligerence as you are interpreting it to be.  These dogs are not pet dogs, herding dogs or obedience dogs. They are wired different. Because this is your first experience with them you are basing your evaluations and assessments  by means of a whole different type of dog. It is similar to those that know nothing about LGD's and try to use the Volhard method. Absolutely wrong tool for evaluation. 


Beekissed said:


> I don't have time for brats, nor am I inclined to keep one around, so this pup is being assessed every day for a willingness to work with the program we have already established.


The behaviors so far is not that one of a "brat" dog. It is simply you not having enough exposure to the breed. Some that have trained other breeds (to include professional and laymen) will read about these dogs but never go and see them on farms talk with trainers and get a real idea of the dogs so they think in their mind that they can train like they have trained all their other dogs.
Of course there are normal things everyone should expect its just knowing what exactly those things are and are not and to what degree and when it is and is not appropriate. 



Beekissed said:


> we've already established he is not allowed in there~


He is 3 months- it has not been established. It is *still being established *and will take *patience*. As smart as these dogs are they do mature in some areas slowly often making great progress going through a pre-pubescent stage then teenage stage where most people go "what the heck why did he/she suddenly start this again." Like it or not it is the nature of the LGD... part of its development the "off" times will vary in degree. Non LGD people have a hard time wrapping their head around this.



Beekissed said:


> I'm inclined to nip it in the bud and I did and he seemed rather cowed by it all but only tomorrow will tell if he pushes that boundary again.


Always think long term. Right now you do not want him in the coop. I am not understanding that simply because the only thing he has to guard is poultry. So what happens when you have a fox, mink, coon etc get in the henhouse?  Why would you not want him in there?

I did not see the interaction and communication in written form is never the whole picture of course so a) he was either cursing you out  or b) not understanding why you are staying there so long- what is wrong that he should know about. 
Better would have been to invite him in and show him what you are doing in there ... he could watch and usually within a few minutes he would leave.

When a LGD pup stands back and barks at you it is usually expressing it's displeasure with you. It is trying very hard to communicate something to you. It is learning how to understand and effectively communicate back.

Truthfully I cringe when I see that.
Because if the intensive training continues you have a very very high probability of losing the respect of your dog. 
The ABSOLUTE worse thing you can do with a LGD Breed is to lose ITS respect. It's not the other way round. When a LGD loses respect he/she will never trust you.
You lose that & you essentially lose the dog. 

Over-correction by being to aggressive especially with a pup is a serious offense in the dogs eyes. 
These dogs do best with a master that corrects by communicating to the dog. It is gentle and lovingly based. Yes, sometimes a firm correction is needed but 3 months is absolutelty too young for these dogs to really have much intense anything. 

The earliest we will even place a dog is 12 weeks and prefer 16.  
"Pet" dogs leave homes at 8 weeks. 
LGD's should be staying with parent stock til then. 

LGD breeds are not like other breeds... they do not respond, behave, think or act like any other breeds on earth. 
I have said for many years on this forum "they are like their own species". 

I too believe in working with the basics of sit stay and down. Within reason of course. If this is your first experience with an LGD breed there are a few things to just tuck away and keep in mind.
They are not obedience dogs. Overtraining and expecting obedience in all times will lead to issues later. If the dog has good instinct as an LGD then there are many things that will lead to great disappointment and frustration for both you and the dog if you train outside of its nature (overtraining).

Moving with the nature of the dog is very important, moving against the nature of the dog is detrimental. They are HARD WIRED to be independent, think for themselves, make decisions and above all to be *trusted*. Trusting the dog and moving within it's instincts will make for a better dog. 
The dog ends up losing respect for their master when trust isn't given. 

 Hundreds of years perhaps more (many thoughts on how old some of these breeds are) of guardian instinct cannot be controlled by a master, unless they completely break down the dog and that ruins the dog. 

Having experience in obedience breeds as well as LGD breeds I can tell you they are *completely different*. Most people that have had non LGD breeds often learn things the hard way. 
Training a GSD a Dobe a Rottie a Collie etc... the list goes on... is not the way you train a LGD. 

This is a difficult concept for many to understand.  I just cannot stress this enough. 

Think of your dog as a partner. They can do a job you cannot do. You do things they cannot do. Train him and raise him as a partner and the dog will in turn do pretty much whatever is asked of him.

Don't misunderstand my post... the "move" as mentioned above was not the situation as when I carry feed and hay and water in and they may be in my way... if I say move they do.  The leeway builds loyalty beyond belief.  

Sometimes my corrections are as simple as walking over and saying- "hey- that's not OK" - They are highly intelligent. Connect and speak their language. 

Training a LGD to be a LGD really requires that partnership and trust. Pups cannot hear til about 3 weeks of age from that point on everday I lift each pup and tell them what a GREAT dog they will be. I have been laughed at, seen eyes roll etc. Many think to themselves (these are all newbies to the LGD world ) she's wacked.  I expect greatness. I get greatness. I don't know how many dogs I have trained over the years... but the LGD's are the most rewarding.  

I am a crusader so to speak against the "leave em in the field and don't touch them, or don't teach them" mindset. I loathe it. The shepherds of hundreds of years with these dogs lived on the mountainsides with the dogs... developed a strong bond. They had to trust and rely on the dogs as they moved with them. That no touch philosophy started here in the States.   So I definitely advocate for working with the LGD.  But allowing them to be what they are does require a different set of training skills. 

Our dogs have prevented theft, told us when a doe kidded, told us when a doe was in distress, told us when a goat was hung up in a tree, prevented a giant New zealand Buck from killing one of our other bucks by keeping it off the goat while the goat was under the fence and we were alerted by the dogs that something was wrong. They have cleaned off kids that we couldn't get too quick enough, alerted us when a baby goat was drowning in a trough, when we had a goat hung up and was strangling and the list goes on. 

I share that to say they are worth their weight in gold and then some. Embrace the _differentness_ ( new word ) . Allow the dog to think and it will always do the right thing when necessary.

As you know I am very passionate about these dogs and always want to support success and bring understanding to new LGD owners. Breaks my heart to see so many shot in the head when they "don't work out", rehomed after damage was done, in shelters slated for euthanasia. 
I don't believe you are "giving orders willy nilly just to get a thrill of having an animal obey me"... you seem to really want to do the right things and you care.
I hope this is an encouragement to you as you continue in your training with Ben.


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## Beekissed

It is and I so value your input and direction!!!  I'm getting ready to make a run to town but when I get back I'll elaborate on why he's not allowed in the coop right now and other meanings behind my methods/needs.  I so badly want to understand this pup and not mess him up with my prior training methods that work very well with Labs and Lab mix dogs but are not expected to much fit this different breed of cat, so to speak.  

I'm learning at the foot of the master and await your teachings!


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## sadieml

This thread is AWESOME!  I am just beginning to train our just turned 5 yr old Pit Bull to guard our goatie babies.  They are still spending their nights in a converted crib in our garage for fear the foxes, coyotes, wild dogs and occasional mountain lion will decide to stop by for dinner.  Kartoffel, my pit baby is such a baby he does not want to stay outside at night.  My fault, really, he has been an indoor dog.  It's just we can't afford to get another dog and he has this wonderful "nanny dog" instinct, and he loves the goats, so I thought...hey, GUARD DOG!  But he absolutely does NOT want to stay outside.  I am trying to coax him to stay with them in the pen in the afternoons when they take a break from browsing, but he constantly returns to the gate and whines for me.  Can you give me some tips, Southern, how to get him to be happier outside and also how to behave with the goats?  They hop around him and in his face with "come chase me" and he will some, and almost always stops when I say to, and doesn't nip at them, but I'm not sure how much (if any) of this I should allow.  The boys almost ALWAYS start it, and really seem to enjoy it, but I think it can't be a good precedent to set.  I don't want him chasing and terrifying other animals, even if these boys like it.  It seems odd to me that a prey animal would ask a dog-seemingly a predator-to "come get me"!  I know I should stop them, but they really do seem to love it.  Maybe I'm reading them all wrong, but if he lies down, they come up and jumps in his face, and runs a few steps, then get back in his face again, over and over until he gets up and chases them.  They do it repeatedly.  Do they just think he's and odd-smelling goat?  I really am lost.  He thinks he's human, they think he's a goat, what a mess!!  I guess it wouldn't really be MY LIFE if it made any sense!


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## sadieml

BTW, Kartoffel is German for potato.  He definitely lives up(or is it down?) to his name!


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## Beekissed

> Always think long term. Right now you do not want him in the coop. I am not understanding that simply because the only thing he has to guard is poultry. So what happens when you have a fox, mink, coon etc get in the henhouse? Why would you not want him in there?



He cannot guard the chickens from inside the coop because the pop doors won't be big enough for him to enter when he has his full growth, so his duties lie in never letting such an animal in there in the first place.  Never had any animal breech the coop when the dogs are outside, except a black snake.  

When he goes in the coop, he has been eating the chicken's feed and also the eggs, so I've been trying to teach him to stay out unless he's been invited inside...right now I'm not inviting him in so he won't be confused about the concept of staying out of the coop.  Later on, when I feel he has grasped the concept of only coming in when I invite him in, I'll introduce that into our routine.  That is a rare occurrence...the coop is too small for all of us to camp out in there, so usually the dogs are required to wait outside while I sit in there and evaluate the chickens as they eat.  

This evening my mother heard him inside the coop, barking at the chickens.  NOT a good thing.  I'd like to teach him that the coop is just not for dogs...that's the chicken's safe place and they certainly don't need a dog barking at them in their only safe place.  I'll keep at it....the coop blocker was working for awhile but it was causing the collar to move too much and abrade the skin of his neck, so that's a no go.  

I guess what I need to know is how you get any of your dogs to mind you when it's important if they don't mind you when it's not important?  I'm also unclear as to how one establishes trust when one cannot trust the dog?  It sounds as if it's all one sided and the dogs rule, so if the human slips up and loses their trust, then the dog just won't work for them....I've never had an animal like that around, so not sure if that will even work here.   Everyone has a job here and they are expected to learn it and do it...if they only do it when they feel like it, who needs that animal?  

Can't even imagine how in the world one would even be able to have an animal around that only minds or works when THEY want to and will reject the human's direction if it's not done to their specifications...and how one would find out what that is, exactly, if they cannot speak dog. 

So far it's not a problem and he's coming along nicely on training and is responding much like a dog his age should, but am looking down the road and trying to circumvent possible issues as they arise, so would love to find out how to surmise what is "bad" for this breed and what is not...in any other breed or dog I've had, barking at the owner when corrected is just not done...ever.  Unless Timmy has fallen in the well or some such other emergency, I can see no conceivable reason why a dog should bark at their owner and especially not during a verbal correction.


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## frustratedearthmother

I'm certainly NOT as experienced as SBC - but is it possible to take away his access to the coop?  Maybe make the opening smaller?  That takes away his ability to get into the space and also takes away the 'battle of wills.'

Before owning a Pyr I would have not known what SBC means when she says to 'trust the dog'.  I've had Pyr's for about 10 years now and I've had to change my whole way of thinking.  I was accustomed to obedient dogs who were hard-wired to please.  Pyr's, and I suspect, other LGD's in general are different.

In so many cases, I don't even need my Pyr to be 'obedient'.  She is already gentle around my grandchildren and the elder folks who come to visit.  She is big and she is excitable at times, so I was worried the first time the little ones were around her...but true to form...she walked up to my grandkids and when they went to pet her she simply laid down like she does around the goat kids.  She let those human kids crawl all over her just like she lets the goat kids.

When my elderly father, who uses a walker, tottered out to the pasture to see the critters, she was equally as gentle with him.  The difference was that she didn't lay down for him.. she stayed right by his leg offering herself as a brace if needed.  It made my jaw drop and brought tears to my eyes.  These dogs know.. they just know.

Ben is a puppy and he's going to make mistakes - but as he matures he will likely surprise you with his wisdom.  I suspect you and he will forge a very special bond.


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## Baymule

@Beekissed I was given a GP because she killed chickens. her owners left her alone all day on 3 acres of free range chickens. About 10 months, they became squeaky toys. Her owners punished her terribly to no avail. By the time we got her, she HATED chickens and charged the coop barking and snarling. It took 2 years to win her trust and convert her to a chicken guard. Yes, as Southern said, these dogs are not your usual dog. They are stinko independent. 

As far as the barking at you, our GP, Paris, has barked like that. She and Polly, our Aussie despise each other and it is always Polly that starts it. We keep them separated, but one morning Polly slipped between my legs and ran into Paris's yard. Polly attacked. Paris attacked back and guess who was getting killed? I was screaming, dragging Paris off Polly, and Polly would attack again. It was quite a mess.

My husband heard me screaming and ran out the back door. He grabbed Paris and hit her several times, trying to get her off Polly. I grabbed Polly and threw her in the house. Paris ran off a short way, turned around and WOOFed at us. She clearly felt she had been wrongly punished, after all Polly started it. We laughed, then felt bad for DH hitting Paris, and we both apologized to her. Polly got a trip to the vet for stitches and healed up just fine. My point is, when you over do it or hurt it's feelings, the dog knows it and will "tell" you.


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## Beekissed

> I suspect you and he will forge a very special bond.



We already have!  I can tell he looks to me for guidance and I really like his sweetness and calm personality....I'm just trying to wrap my mind around his "differentness" as I go along.  I had a GP mix female and she wasn't a bit independent and gave me authority on all things when I was present...she was a lot like you describe your GP.  She came to me already perfect and nothing needed changed except the excessive barking at times, but that was infrequent and she would stop when I told her to.

I cannot decrease the openings to the coop or the chickens could not get in at all...I raise a big breed and the rooster can barely fit through the door now.  If I made it any smaller he'd never make it.

Time and his growth will take that issue away, so it's just a waiting game...I had the same problem with Jake when my back was turned.  He was eating up to 2 doz. eggs per day at one point before I realized he was raiding the coop...nipped that in the bud but he'll still  nip in and grab the eggs if I leave the door open for any length of time.

My pup hasn't yet reached an age when he can control his excitement around visitors, the elderly or small children, so that's mostly the area in which I need him to obey.  When I say "get down" or "away" he needs to really be tuned into that....if he knocks people over now, imagine what will happen when he gets really big.


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## Baymule

Bee, when he gets really big, and matures, a lot of that will fix it's self. Paris loved my Mom and Mom would push her walker out to pet Paris. Paris would stand on her hind legs right in front of Mom, making us think she was going to land on Mom and knock her flat, but she never did. Paris danced in front of Mom and always, carefully dropped back down for Mom to pet her. Mom passed away this year on Father's Day.






In this picture, the benches were kept on top of the table to keep Parker, the black Lab/Great Dane from chewing them.


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## Beekissed

You have a beautiful Mom!    And the dogs are pretty as well!  

Ben has just started something that I'm trying to stop but not sure what will work on that...he's taken to putting his paw up on people if he doesn't get attention right away.   His claws are puppy sharp, so he can do some damage with those big paws and Mom's skin tears if you breathe on it hard, so I'm really wanting him to stop that now...can't really wait until he ages on that one.  He's also doing it to my little 18 mo. old grandbaby, so now she's scared of him and puts her hands out and backs away when he approaches...I'd really like to teach him to respect personal space.


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## frustratedearthmother

My Maddie thinks her world has ended if she earns direct disapproval.  Sometimes, in her wish to be acknowledged, she will come between me and a goat that I'm trying to do 'whatever' with.  Maybe I'm checking eyelids, or giving medication... but when I give her a sharp "get back" and turn my back on her you'd think I'd beat her with a stick, lol. 

When she was younger I'd physically push her away and raise my voice and she learned.  Some are more stubborn than others, but I see your point and understand your need to get him to be compliant in that circumstance. 

Teenage years are tough - be they dogs or children!


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## Beekissed

My GP mix, Lucy, was like that...any verbal correction, no matter how light, she acted like I had beat her to death.  VERY sensitive.  This pup isn't quite that sensitive but I see a lot of that same sweetness and willingness to please in him that I saw in Lucy.  

I've had to wash his neck a couple of times lately due to some abrasions and he just sits there like he's getting a spa treatment...closes his eyes and lets me do anything I want to him.  He has a real gentleness of manner that I saw from the very first, so working around that and through that without breaking his spirit is more of a training of me than of him.  I'll get my head around it, never fear...he and I already have a bond going and a mutual appreciation. 

He's far, far easier than most pups out there and most people who meet him are duly impressed by his demeanor, so I don't want to give the impression he's a problem dog at all...he's not.  Just a few little puppy things to work on, really.  

I'm very impressed by what he's picked up without ever having to be told, just by watching Jake...I like that intuitiveness in a dog.


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## Baymule

I was clipping T-posts a couple of days ago, I have a short stool I sit on to clip the ones at the bottom. It sure saves the back from bending over! Trip saw me in easy reach and here he came. He sat in my lap and loved on me, slobbery and wet. Parker, our black Lab/Great Dane mix was terribly jealous and wanted attention too, so he gave me lots of doggy love too. I laughed and hugged them both. Those are the precious moments of having really wonderful dogs!


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## goats&moregoats

@Southern by choice 

       I know your not on a lot right now. If you don't respond to this by middle of the week I will most likely call you.

      I see a lot of post about when it's ok to put LGD pups in with poultry, but don't see much in the way of knowing when they can be in with goats unsupervised by humans. I am assuming that after working with them daily I will know by their actions when the time is right. Obviously, they will be with Yukon & Tahoe now 8 years old and it certainly will be after training that goats are not toys. Does it take as long with the goats? My thinking is most likely not(am I correct?) as goats don't usually flap aroundlol:, picturing that in my head).

     I know they have to learn some things from me, but am I also correct in believing they will learn far more from Yukon & Tahoe?
    Also, are older LGD's usually pretty accepting of pups?

    I am a little nervous, but also pretty sure of myself.  I get teaching the basics, wanting good behavior for public outings(usually in my case the vets, nothing more). Out for when I need them to leave an area for working with the animals, sit for when I need to be in control(goats birthing, medicating, feeding etc., wait for entering and exiting the gate or car, and easy for walking on the lead. I have only had to use down once(with Tahoe) who likes to "play" a bit occasionally. Nothing rough and it's not very often. Jumps up and gently swings her paw in the air making no contact, then will jump up or a friendly pat on the head, then goes about her business. One day she just couldn't get enough of the friendly pat on the head. I told her down and that was it.

When I got Yukon & Tahoe(my first LGD's as you know) I was nervous because I didn't know them or what to expect. As soon as I meet them my nervousness faded, did the whole separate but with in fencing of pasture to get to know each other thing with the goats and for some reason instant trust on both sides with dogs and myself.

Now I am nervous because I don't want to wait to long or move to soon as far as when to leave pups alone with Yukon & Tahoe.

Also I don't use the word no...lol, when I see a behavior I don't want( not to may with Yukon & Tahoe because they were already train) I use the word Unacceptable.


Thanks so much for your insight on working with LGD's


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## Southern by choice

goats&moregoats said:


> I am assuming that after working with them daily I will know by their actions when the time is right.


Yes. You will. 



goats&moregoats said:


> Does it take as long with the goats? My thinking is most likely not(am I correct?)


No, not at all. 



goats&moregoats said:


> I know they have to learn some things from me, but am I also correct in believing they will learn far more from Yukon & Tahoe?


Not all "parent or adult" stock are good at training or correcting. That is very individual. Often pups will learn from older stock but there are so many adults that won't correct. So it is not a reliable method ... many really think they can throw them in and the older dogs will teach. Generally it is better to have a GOOD mature LGD and even if they don't correct the pups still learn good things and develop well and usually faster in their job. 



goats&moregoats said:


> Also, are older LGD's usually pretty accepting of pups?


Yes. And it is funny but they tend to like their "own" breed. 
Old LGD's sometimes are not very tolerant of a young energetic pup. Old dogs tend to not teach, correct or have anything to do with pups. Usually it is because they are just worn out.



goats&moregoats said:


> Now I am nervous because I don't want to wait to long or move to soon as far as when to leave pups alone with Yukon & Tahoe.


I am pretty sure Yukon and Tahoe will do fine with the pups.
I will message you in a bit.


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## Ferguson K

Southern, I think I found a partner for the LGD we are waiting on adoption approval on. This little guy is a started five month old. She thinks he's already 40+ lbs. He will be a monster... He's a little watcher. 




 

 

He was the runt, so they kept him... Now he's the biggest puppy. He's mostly Anatolian. Dad is half Pyr. I see a LOT of Pyr influence. 

We're taking time to think him over. How do Tolis differ from Pyr? In their habits? In their bonding? Should I still expect a dog Dependant on his flock/herd? Or are they independent watchmen? I see yours in your posts but I'm curious as to how they bond with the animals. The only Toli I've ever really got to experience was a big female that would leap the gate if you approached HER goats. No stranger or stray came anywhere near that pasture. I mean she would come a running full protector mode. Lord forbid you touched one and weren't an accepted member of the herd... 

I know all dogs are different. But all the Pyr we've ever had use their size as intimidation tactics and rarely used force if they didn't have to.


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## Southern by choice

Some dogs are territory bonded others are goat bonded.

They are all different.
When ever I go to a farm with Toli's or Kangals I don't worry... every once in awhile there will be one that is not tolerant of people but usually they are welcoming. 
Pyr's on the other hand... I am much more careful about... as many pyr's that are sweet and friendly to everyone; there are just as many that are not. I see much more aggressiveness from Pyrs.

I will pm you with particulars.


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## Ferguson K

All of the Pyrs I've had the bomoe of working with have all been people aggressive. So to speak. If you weren't theirs you didn't come in the pasture. 

Especially Bear. He doesn't let anyone near "his" birds. I'm leery of him when its been a while since we've been around him. He's a sneaky thing. Connie was worse. She could steal the marshmallow out from under you at a campfire and you'd never know she was there until you reached for one.


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## Southern by choice

Almost all LGD's are like that... stealthy... you don't see them, don't hear them and then there they are. 
I am always amazed at their speed.  They lumber around so oaf like but when they need to move they move.


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## Ferguson K

That's the truth!!!


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## Southern by choice

Thought I'd share what I am doing with my "micro-manager" pup "Silver".  Silver is Callie's 10 month old pup.
Silver wants to control where the "small" goats go... usually he wants them up by the barn. He likes babies but wants to keep them rounded up and in a certain spot. Usually in the barn.

Because I like to share what we do when we see something we don't like or want to change I thought this may be helpful. 

As many of you know Callie is not back in her full time field... she is moved around from field to field because she LOVES her pups. We do not keep her in with the pups full time but she gets to see them often. I must say this is interesting. Usually pups by this age (10 months) are not really viewed as pups by their dam anymore but just one of the pack. Not so with Callie. She LOVES her pups and although she will correct them she still mothers them. 

Silver will be going to the Kiko buck field and then alternating to the small dairy bucks field with AMY. Callie will be going back full time also. This means Silver will have 2 powerful males and Callie with him. The Kiko bucks are very protective of their dogs. It's kinda crazy. Callie is HIGHLY possessive of her Kiko goats. So the plan is to allow Silver to learn that he cannot decide and micromanage the goats. Callie may love her pup but these are HER goats and nothing bosses her goats around.
AMY tolerates nothing from her own pups to any other dog so this should be a good teaching tool to help Silver mature a little. He is a perpetual pup. LOL  

On a side note- I do get a kick out of the Kikos... the other day I saw Arkados (aka Tiggs-Anatolian male) laid out in his field... Moses (Kiko herdsire) was standing right beside him... Arkados had no movement... I was concerned so I yelled his name- up pops his head. Then I realized Oh, it's just him taking a nap while Moses guards him. 
Foe some weird reason the Kiko's love their Anatolians. They are great with "D" (pyr) but they LOVE their Toli's.

I'll keep you updated.


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## BlessedWithGoats

Southern by choice said:


> Foe some weird reason the Kiko's love their Anatolians.


 
Aww!! Cute!


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## Southern by choice

Well haven't been able to move Silver yet but he did go in isolation pen for 2 days. Moved him today to the field he has been in... I had to walk him through the buckling area first- his momma Callie was in there.

Well he was spun up and ready to RUN and get his energy out so as we went through the pen he goes to run to the second gate...
Yeah- CALLIE! Callie was not having him run anywhere... she ran him down grabbed his back leg to let him know... uh uh!
Callie is awesome! 
Let him out the the field... he goes to start running but is heading right for the cluster of goats eating happily. I yelled out ah ah- he slowed and walked through and then after making his way he took off. All the pups were raring to play but I had also let Callie in! 
Callie was right on him every step of the way - grabbed his back legs... then neck to neck letting out a growl. 
Smart puppy knows not to do anything his momma doesn't like.
Once the pups mature a bit then the momma will correct- no more real protection now it's all about the goats again.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note- we have had a few squabbles lately with the boys.
Chunk however will get in there and let the dogs know - NOT ON MY TURF! Not one pup will challenge Chunk.
Chunk is my super dog! I love everything about him! He is always on guard... watching watching watching. Dependent on no-one.
Blue is very different dog but I see he strives to be like Chunk in some ways. We had visitors today here are the boys watching at the wire. Look at my baby Chunk!
After a few minutes Not Leo moved back with the goats... others stayed close by... then Chunk once he knew I was safe went to the far side and set up position. Blue - my babylove- stayed on the wire but fell asleep in the sun!  Pete stayed put.
Left to Right
Not Leo (standing), Blue, Chunk (pyr- 19 months), Pete



 

Not Leo-


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## Southern by choice

Posted a little about this on my journal but wanted to expand a little. As I thought about it more it could be helpful to a newbie....

_I was up early and all was still...a little before 6 am I heard squealing tires then BOOM! 
Grabbed flashlight... got DD & DH and headed out... ANOTHER car in the trees. Guy was ok. Car totaled. 2nd car in less then a month.
Just glad he wasn't dead. Several people have died across the road and I am just glad that each time we go out the person has been alive._

Dogs of course went nuts... calmed down once we were out there.
It was still dark out when the accident occurred. Eventually someone picked up the guy but the car was still out there. Knew that IF any police could find the location it would be at least an hour or two. 

_LOL- as I guessed BLUE decided the car in the trees was something too close to his field... he has gone through the barn over the fencing and is now on "guard" out there.
Oh Blue.
Smart dogs can be a PITB sometimes._

We have been locking the goats in the barn for a few days (night only)... dogs are NOT in the barn but on the unfinished other side - so there is shelter under roof and it is closed on 3 sides... they sleep out in the field anyway usually...

What I did not know was that I guess PT (Pete) somehow got into the barn and stayed with the goats at o dark thirty when the car wrecked. He was calmly laying with the goats when we went back out to hay around 8 or so.

First off I am impressed. Sad, Callie won't be bred again... (well probably not) as these truly are remarkable dogs in this litter. I am pleased with everyone of them.

Second - this does somewhat present a bit of an issue with the fact that I have ALWAYS expected my dogs to stay exactly where I put them... now keep in mind that this field is generally open so dogs DO see this as all one field. They have never gone into any other field.  I have thought about this a good deal. I have opted to not correct or scold them because they are doing exactly what a LGD is SUPPOSE to do. Get to wherever whenever they feel they need to be to do their job.

Blue will NOT be separated from the goats if he feels he "needs" to be there. Last week he broke out some boards ( screwed in boards-not nailed) to get to the goats.

This "teaching moment" is really trying to show how sometimes we need to remember and be thoughtful... we get LGD's TO THINK for themselves and to do a job... even when it annoys us...

Is the dog doing it's job? (GOOD)
Is the dog just going where it wants because it won't stay where it needs to? (BAD)

For newbies these are important observations to make. The dog that is doing it's job is always going to get to where they need to be. 

One thing we do with EVERYdog starting from puppyhood is make sure from time to time we put them in a "kennel" (not really a kennel...just a small space like a quarantine run or lot etc) so they learn that if they are penned to STAY there and none of this crazy frantic stupid panic scratching, digging, climbing, going crazy stuff that so many dogs do. Encourages a more stable, confident dog.

I kept Blue for a reason. He is alot of dog...and he is just like his mother Callie... stubborn with a will that is amazing but I can see he is already dependable. 

Got a coyote this am ... going to get it out there for the dogs to see.


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## Southern by choice

Very pleased with the pups... they will be one on Jan 2! 
Very glad I kept so many back for started dogs. I have really enjoyed it. 
Since this is "teaching moments" I like to share the great, the good, the bad, and the ugly! 

As many of you have already read "Silver" has been the slowest to mature. He is the forever puppy. Smart, loves the little ones, loves to play. He is our micro-manager and really wants "little" goats barred up in the barn. In the end I DID NOT move him. I decided that he will do best by learning the hard way.

Since he doesn't do this with the big goats it didn't make sense to move him with all big goats or he may never learn.

So this is where I am with Silver- he loves to play and has always, if you've followed the pups the past year, he was the one that would entice the other dogs and get them to run and take him down.

Well....  poor boy... his brothers are very grown up and guardy and they are more into their job so this slowly has become more of an irritation to the others.
Last week Pete and Not Leo just flat out took him down. It got ugly. Callie will take him down but she is his mom, so she is a little easier on him. His brothers were not.  Pete and Not Leo are an incredible team, very powerful and very serious. 
I like this team a they are confident- they are leaving for their new farm this month. I just hope they can adjust to the different livestock- if not they will come back.

So since Silver was"put in his place" he has been a bit mopey.
Unusual for siblings to do this... but they did. It is as if they have let him know- GROW UP and do your JOB.

Silver does do a good job he patrols and he watches but is immature. I would like to see him with a dominant female watcher.

The pups really LOVE their goats. Chunk has been a great mentor.
Certain goats have their favorite dogs. It is sweet.
Here are some pics.

My BABY BLUE!


 
Silver up front, Not Leo back, Chunk right


 
Silver- he is sad and a little mopey- No one will play- he is being forced to grow up


 
Pete (PT)


 
Not Leo- always very close to his goats


 
Chunk, Silver, Not Leo, Callie laying with goats


 
These two are on the other side of the goats sitting on the fence
Blue and Pete


 
Ruby was curious as to what we were doing (cleaning out the apartment) so she came over- Not Leo followed and stayed close.
ALL the dogs LOVE RUBY!


 
Littlest DD and Blue


 
DD with Pete - I love how he leans in


 


What a joy our goats and dogs are!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Cuteness! Aww, Silver!  It's okay buddy, your brothers still love you, they just don't want to play!


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## Latestarter

Wow, how Pocket Toli has changed! It seems like most of the pups got the Toli long legs and thin build but more of a Pyr head. None of them seem as "bulky" as the Pyrs through their bodies. Great dogs! I sure love mine!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Latestarter said:


> Wow, how Pocket Toli has changed! It seems like most of the pups got the Toli long legs and thin build but more of a Pyr head. None of them seem as "bulky" as the Pyrs through their bodies. Great dogs! I sure love mine!



Yeah, we need some more pics of "mine" @Latestarter!  You know it is absolutely required!  Really though, we'd love to see pics of Mel too! Maybe we won't steal Southern's thread  (not that she'd mind), but Mel could use his own thread if you don't have a journal...


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## Latestarter

Here's Mel as of 1/2 hour ago. We have had a little snow overnight:




As I was taking this pic, my neighbor is outside to shovel and Mel heard him so he's letting me know.



 
He's a good dog


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## Southern by choice

AW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   
So happy you posted pics! I LOVE his face ... he has more of the block (daddy's) head. They are all very Toli in structure except Simba (Green) and Pete (PT) PT is very large! VERY. Him and Not Leo have more bulk....  His girth (Mels) is a real mix! "Spot" was very pyr like.

As you know I LOVED that pup- he was one of "my" picks. 

A "little" snow   that would be what we get for the year!
Dogs love the snow and the cold... I bet Mel is happy with the cold.

Most of the dogs got their daddy's height (Callie is tall for a female)... we had 2 "short stuffs" - By maturity they should still end up at 32-33" -ultimately as long as they can do their job that is what counts.

So glad you two love each other. I love their independence!
Stubbornness! Arrogance! Yet they love their love!

How is Mel coming along with "I am focused" right now?
Yesterday we had some weird happening on the far end of the field... must have been down the highway- don't know what it was but all the dogs were going nuts- that "serious I'm on the job" bark... 2 stayed on the corner and 3 ran the fencelines and moved the goats. It was so intense I headed out and went into the field... dogs saw me and could care less- it was the "I've got a job to do- don't have time to say hi" . Happened 3 different times, don't know if it was a stray do (unusual for here) or fox, deer 
I like that their concentration doesn't get broken.


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## Latestarter

He seems to have his "Just so you know I'm here, and maybe can see you" barking and then there's the "I see you CLEARLY and you're closer than I want you" barking. For the former, I normally just leave it be and don't go out. After 15-20 minutes he'll simmer down and continue about his day (my night). For the latter, I generally go out to see what's causing the commotion. When I do go out, he'll normally come around the corner to greet me then run back to the fence to focus back on whatever it was that set him off... which most of the time I can't see or hear.  I think a lot of it is when a bunch of the neighbor's dogs light off at the fox or a coyote down the road, he gets involved. I believe that's the only reason he'll come back around the corner to get me... the "issue" isn't really close, or maybe he can't even see it but hears/smells it. I don't think it's a case of him breaking focus so much as I am his focus and he's guarding me. His favorite spot to watch from is right where the pictures were taken... between the house and garage.

The past week he's taken to doing a wolf like howl... kinda like some dogs do at fire engine sirens... Only in the middle of the night, and usually during the middle of a barking episode. Maybe he's lamenting the lack of a partner?

He doesn't mind the snow or cold at all. When I bring him in, he has ice balls on the tips of some of his fur, but he's dry underneath and plenty warm even if cold on the outside to touch. He spent all night last night (every night) outside and was just fine this morning. He'll go around to the side of the house and lay down in a snow drift... Or he'll crash on a piece of carpeting laid down right outside the back door. I'd take a picture, but as soon as I open a door, he's up and moving.

In a pic above, you said you like when they lean in while walking beside you. Mel does more than just "lean"... he actually pushes like he's trying to guide me. Some times he'll actually turn in front of me and block my progress and I have to push him aside or go around him. Not quite sure what that's all about as I've never had a dog do that... 

He'll come up to me when he wants attention and put both paws up and sit on his haunches so I can scratch his chest and shoulders as well as his hocks and paws. He loves to roll over on his side and get a belly scratch as well if he's laying down and I'm walking past. I have to be careful he doesn't trip me as he'll sometimes throw one of those big paws of his out to catch my leg as I go by... Next time my fave oldest daughter comes over I really need to get her to use my camera and get some pictures of Mel and I and even with Mystie in the pics for size comparison. She walks right under him now with no issue at all and she's a larger sized female Golden retriever...


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## Southern by choice

Latestarter said:


> I don't think it's a case of him breaking focus so much as I am his focus and he's guarding me. His favorite spot to watch from is right where the pictures were taken... between the house and garage.


Your right, there isn't a serious enough issue- you'll see one day what I mean... he will not hear you, mind you, or pay attention when he zero's in a serious issue. It will be all business. 



Latestarter said:


> After 15-20 minutes he'll simmer down


Sometimes if I think they are going on a little too long about "nothing" I will flick the porch light on/off and they stop immediately. Kind of our signal. Works for us. Young  dogs do need to learn to bark but like you and most- I don't want incessant barking. They learn so quick.



Latestarter said:


> The past week he's taken to doing a wolf like howl... kinda like some dogs do at fire engine sirens... Only in the middle of the night, and usually during the middle of a barking episode. Maybe he's lamenting the lack of a partner?


LOL- Sorry  maybe I didn't warn you of that... The toli side... the pyrs do it some but LOL I almost video'd it the other night. So funny. I asked the pups "are you trying to call wolves or coyotes in or what?" I think sometimes they ware wanting to draw in to have some fun!  He isn't doing it out of lonliness- he does it because he can. 



Latestarter said:


> He doesn't mind the snow or cold at all.


The boys and all the dogs were loving the cooler weather coming in but last week we were in the 70's again! Poor dogs started blowing coat again. Last year when we were in single digits all the dogs loved it! Even the pups! 



Latestarter said:


> Some times he'll actually turn in front of me and block my progress and I have to push him aside or go around him. Not quite sure what that's all about as I've never had a dog do that...


Ours only block us if they know there is a threat and they want us to stay back... only happened a few times.... having younger tinier people here (my little ones) the dogs know better than to lean too hard, they are very in tune to it. Now with me if I am standing "Blue"- my boy, he will lean on me... I tell him sometimes, "I'm gonna move and you're gonna fall over" LOL He slinks his head back like Callie does and I move and he  falls over and gives the look "ok love me".   Sometimes they will stand in front of us because they want the loving and have decided we were not done yet. BRATS! 


Latestarter said:


> He'll come up to me when he wants attention and put both paws up and sit on his haunches so I can scratch his chest and shoulders as well as his hocks and paws.


I  this! That is his daddy "D". "D" has always done the bunny puppy and it is my favorite- Chunk does it too! "D" is Chunk's uncle. To me it has always been a special thing. It is so gentle too. That made my day! 



Latestarter said:


> I have to be careful he doesn't trip me as he'll sometimes throw one of those big paws of his out to catch my leg as I go by...


Oh gosh- Callie Callie Callie... those long legs come out of nowhere and push on you too! Does he do the push on you? 
Some of the pyrs will throw a leg but it is mostly Callie, her pups (most of them) do the same thing! Callie is slinky and can twist and contort her body in the weirdest seemingly impossible ways! Blue, Silver, Tiggs, Bernard all do this but Blue is identical to his mom.



Latestarter said:


> I really need to get her to use my camera and get some pictures of Mel and I and even with Mystie in the pics for size comparison.


That would be cool! I love to see pics! Funny how the pics really never show their structure well.... 



Latestarter said:


> She walks right under him now


  Comparison photos are always funny ... I do like big dogs and guardians need size. Starting to see dogs 23-25" tall around here and I just don't get it... why are people breeding such tiny guardians  
 Leo's owners sent this... The black Aussie is about 55 lbs, the merle is a mini so smaller but Leo is a monster- lanky long and tall but starting to get his mass. 





I love Mel's head! His chest looks good too! He has another year of growing and filling out ... 2 more before he is finished growing.
Getting ready to run a round of dewormer on ours. 
How does Mel do with the chickens? I know you pen yours but does he ever go in the pen with you?

One of the pups- "Bernard" lives with his goat herd but 2x the owner went out and found him in the chicken field... apparently he goes over a gate across the yard goes over another gate to get in with the chickens... then he waits for her to put him back in his goat field. He doesn't kill the chickens or anything like that- he was going there because they have had something trying to get to the chickens. They lock the chickens up at night but had seen a fox attempting to get in... so they know there is a predator attempting to get to them and have seen scratch marks on the door of the coop. So Bernard decided the chickens need protected too. I guess by the time he gets there the fox is gone. Still not bad for a young dog and shows that he really wants to guard everything. He does not like the chickens in the goat field though. LOL


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## Latestarter

Jeeze... all the boys from this litter came out top notch! D & Callie did real good! Mel doesn't bother about the chickens. He has climbed up the stairs and come in the coop with me a couple of times, but for the most part, he's content to just stay outside. He seems to have no interest in them at all, though he knows they're there. He patrols out around the coops up to the fence, and he's chased off/seen a  fox back there. I see the tracks in the snow on the other side of the fence along side the run. The fox can't get in.

These dogs are like extreme body builders... they've got no neck! I don't know how anyone keeps a collar on them... It's like a solid trunk from the shoulders all the way to the back of the head, getting a bit smaller as it gets there.

It's funny really, I'm not as limber as I once was, but he wants me to get down on the floor with him and hug on him, and when he's had enough, or feels claustrophobic, he puts the 4 paws together and pushes, and I swear he could move a truck! He's really a big love bug. He likes his attention. I'll have to see If I can get DD over this coming weekend to take some cameos...


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## Mike CHS

The picture with Leo and the Aussie really gives me some perspective. Our Aussie is just over 50 pounds so she is almost exactly the same size.


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## Southern by choice

NO NECK! 

I know! It is impossible to keep a collar on them! They just take it off each other. We found giant harnesses that fit so if we need to take them anywhere we have to use the harness... 

Callie is a brat and I know this is where they get it from... She hates a rabies tag on her collar and for the life of me I don't know how she does it but she CHEWS her rabies tag off... there is just a little piece still on the ring! Tiggs (Toli male) did the same thing. 

We will rivet the tags on when they get their 3 year.

Mel looks very powerful! I love how they are all getting their muscling in. When they move you can see the definition and the power behind those body's. 

The 4 leg push  nooooo that has never happened here...  
Right... brats all do it! EVERY dog not just the pups... it is a big no no 

Some cameo shots would be cool!


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## Latestarter

He's only done the 4 leg push a couple of times... most of the time he's like a slinky, as you described his mom, and he'll roll his upper body the opposite direction of his lower body then spin his head and flea chew his butt or something... They're really made of cooked spaghetti, not muscle, bone and cartilage... that is until they hit you... then it's all solid bone. They're transformers I tell ya! Oh yes... he's a LOT of controlled power. He's very strong and getting very big/solid. Filling out nicely.


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## Southern by choice

@Latestarter  when I look at his baby pics (I mean puppy pics) he always had the big wide jowls even as a baby... He really has a nice broad head and those jowls! Wow.  Isn't it odd how slinky like they can be... sometimes I think they really are the master contortionists! 
Blue and Silver seem to be the most "slinky" and Blue seems like he has no pyr in him at all. LOL  Pete and Not Leo are more pyr bodied with short hair- they don't slink really.

They have gotten very agile... if a goat cuts in front of them when they are running they will just fly over them. Ruby and Mariah are big goats and it is always amazing how in a hundredth of a second they can leap over them so they don't crash into them.

Pete does get a bit jealous when we are loving on goats and he wants attention... he kind of just started this. So I push him back and tell him no, I am saying hi to the goats you wait. 

I have loved this litter and it was worth the 3 yr wait. I just wish I could do another. I love their temperaments, structure, and intelligence. They seem to have a lot of "Toli"... they all have that kind of aloofness that says I might love you but I don't _need_ you. Pyrs are much more affectionate and pushy about lovin'. They also get their feelings hurt so easily  these guys are like Toli's- "whatever- you'll get over it"  and the um no... you can come to me I'm good and don't feel like getting up.  

They are way more stubborn than any of my pyrs.  
The big thing they got from the pyr daddy side is jealousy gene, and their confidence, well maybe their arrogance too.

Down side is they really do not like anything in their goats field... so they have pushed all the chickens to the back where the trees are and if the chickens come through the wire they drive them right back.


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## Latestarter

Well, you said you wanted to make them (chickens) freezer dog food... Time to break out the pellet gun and start freezing them.


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## Southern by choice

You know we spend a lot of time with our goats and dogs... all of us... I will say it is tough on the children when the pups go to their new homes,(Of course it is tough on me too) but we do enjoy them so much.

Today 3 of the kids and I were out just loving on them... and the goats of course... but the dogs well they just melt your heart. I often wonder what it looks like to all the cars that drive by when they see us with our arms wrapped around them giving bear hugs, scratching bellies and giving kisses. 

They have matured well and I couldn't ask for a better group of dogs.

Blue is a powerhouse and when he moves you see his muscling. He is so much like his momma. He always looks like he isn't doing much but he knows everything going on around him. EVERYTHING.
We got more spools in today - another 5- dogs love the spools... they leap right up and then they stand there- makes it so much easier to love on a bunch at once.

Chunk is momma's boy and he an Blue are ridiculous over "who is mom's favorite". 

Sometimes I just open the door of the house and hollar out to whoever I can see and can see me and tell them what great dogs they are. They never disappoint me, I know to trust them and they respond. 

So exciting about kidding coming up! 
It will be their first kidding!
What an exciting time it will be next month!


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## BlessedWithGoats

Aww! 
I'm sure your dogs will do wonderfully with kidding! I wish you a Blessed kidding season, and healthy babies!! 


Southern by choice said:


> Chunk is momma's boy and he an Blue are ridiculous over "who is mom's favorite".


 LOL! Silly boys!


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## Latestarter

I've tried to get side by side pictures of Mel with Mystie, but he's so big compared to her, and she's old, and he plays so rough with her (play, not trying to dominate or hurt) that she is kind of afraid to be right next to him. So, here's a couple of cameos of Mel:

Here he's laying on the floor with my 6' 250# son:




 

And being the love bug he is, trying to get some quality time with yours truly:



 

This is an over-sized, over stuffed recliner and my primary relaxing place. He clears the arms standing beside it. He has tried to fit his whole body up on top of me, but is just too big to fit. He likes to bury that huge head of his under my arm while I give him neck and full body scratches with both hands.

Have had my son and family with their 4 kids since right after Xmas. He was a little standoffish at first, but now when he comes in the house, the first thing he does is search for the grand kids (oldest - 9, youngest ~18 mos) to give each a nuzzle and make sure they're OK. You can just see the head of hair from the youngest (G-daughter) in the lower right of the pic. She  wanted to get over and help scratch the pup  too! 

Happy New year all!


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## Beekissed

That's one really big sweetie!!!!  I love those pics!


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## sadieml

Just tooo cute for words.   Get a load of that head full of hair on the Grandbaby, too!  Mine (babies-no grands, yet) were nearly bald until 2 yrs or so.  Of course, no one has ever had a haircut, either, so they all have wonderful long hair! 

Mel looks like THE biggest baby EVER!  Really awesome.  Maybe one of these days we'll be blessed with and LGD to rescue.  Until then, looks like I'm the designated LGD around here.  (btw - my initials actually are LGD)  Most rain-free days, I can be seen somewhere outside watching our boys as they browse.  The extended warm weather has kept some of their favorites around - like sweet gum leaves, vetch, and liriope (border grass).  Pretty soon, they'll have to be satisfied with more hay and a little grain.  Also, lightly roasted pumpkin and other squash seeds, and maybe a handful of BOSS.
Anywho, don't want to swipe the thread.  Looking forward to more of Southern's awesome teaching moments.


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## Southern by choice

His big noggin is too much! Very glad he accepted the grandchildren!
What he did is what Not Leo did with the family that met him... then when they came back another time it was really interesting. How he KNEW that all the children weren't there was pretty amazing-
He walked over to their van and jumped right in searching for the other two. Stayed with them til they got out of the van.
Very watchful over little toddlers too.

Mel has such a serious face! Poor Mystie 

I loved that "little" pup so much. So glad he is well cared for and very loved! 

Happy New Year!


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## Baymule

@Latestarter love the pics! Very handsome! (you and DS ain't bad either)


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## goats&moregoats

Southern by choice said:


> Very pleased with the pups... they will be one on Jan 2!
> Very glad I kept so many back for started dogs. I have really enjoyed it.
> Since this is "teaching moments" I like to share the great, the good, the bad, and the ugly!
> 
> As many of you have already read "Silver" has been the slowest to mature. He is the forever puppy. Smart, loves the little ones, loves to play. He is our micro-manager and really wants "little" goats barred up in the barn. In the end I DID NOT move him. I decided that he will do best by learning the hard way.
> 
> Since he doesn't do this with the big goats it didn't make sense to move him with all big goats or he may never learn.
> 
> So this is where I am with Silver- he loves to play and has always, if you've followed the pups the past year, he was the one that would entice the other dogs and get them to run and take him down.
> 
> Well....  poor boy... his brothers are very grown up and guardy and they are more into their job so this slowly has become more of an irritation to the others.
> Last week Pete and Not Leo just flat out took him down. It got ugly. Callie will take him down but she is his mom, so she is a little easier on him. His brothers were not.  Pete and Not Leo are an incredible team, very powerful and very serious.
> I like this team a they are confident- they are leaving for their new farm this month. I just hope they can adjust to the different livestock- if not they will come back.
> 
> So since Silver was"put in his place" he has been a bit mopey.
> Unusual for siblings to do this... but they did. It is as if they have let him know- GROW UP and do your JOB.
> 
> Silver does do a good job he patrols and he watches but is immature. I would like to see him with a dominant female watcher.
> 
> The pups really LOVE their goats. Chunk has been a great mentor.
> Certain goats have their favorite dogs. It is sweet.
> Here are some pics.
> 
> My BABY BLUE!
> View attachment 12979
> Silver up front, Not Leo back, Chunk right
> View attachment 12980
> Silver- he is sad and a little mopey- No one will play- he is being forced to grow up
> View attachment 12981
> Pete (PT)
> View attachment 12982
> Not Leo- always very close to his goats
> View attachment 12983
> Chunk, Silver, Not Leo, Callie laying with goats
> View attachment 12984
> These two are on the other side of the goats sitting on the fence
> Blue and Pete
> View attachment 12985
> Ruby was curious as to what we were doing (cleaning out the apartment) so she came over- Not Leo followed and stayed close.
> ALL the dogs LOVE RUBY!
> View attachment 12986
> Littlest DD and Blue
> View attachment 12987
> DD with Pete - I love how he leans in
> View attachment 12988
> 
> 
> What a joy our goats and dogs are!


Tahoe leans in like that when I walk through the pasture.


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## Southern by choice

Silver was eating a BOX TURTLE tonight.

I guess with all the flooding maybe it headed to higher ground? I don't know - but we never have turtles in the fields... the dogs keep it clean of any critter. 

I was at a tournament ... DD told me- said it was awful... Said it was so awful she used the scoops to dispose of it. He had bitten into the shell and was ripping it off. 

I know it sound babyish but come on, turtles are so cool.


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## goatgurl

ewwwww, poor turtle.  could be worse, JJ was laying on the back steps pulling the innards out of a squirrel.  again ewwww.


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## Mike CHS

I still can't believe all the rain you folks are getting.  We have been able to spend the last week in TN and very little rain here but lots to the North.


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## Beekissed

I think it's a little cool that they still react to live game like a wild predator does....I encourage that in my dogs.  Not a real quick death for the turtle, but it's nature all the same.  I've never seen a dog do that before but it's no different than them catching a mouse, squirrel, or bird and eating it.


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## sadieml

I'm not sure a box turtle would count as a dangerous predator to your herds, I supposed they could "nom nom" someone to death, given time, but you can't fault the dogs for being hunters.  I've heard that turtles make good soup, and probably taste like chicken since almost everything people can't describe "tastes like chicken".  Since your LGD's are not likely to get "fresh chicken" (at least not while keeping their jobs ) this should qualify as a real treat.  I've never been given a fresh kill by a dog, but with cats, the parts they give you signify your importance to them.  The innards, tail, and brain, are the "choice" parts, so if your kitty gives you a pile of *_shudder*_ guts, consider yourself honored, make a big deal out of it, and dispose of it later when kitty can't see.


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## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> I've never seen a dog do that before but it's no different than them catching a mouse, squirrel, or bird and eating it.


I am thinking he thought he found something interesting to play with...  the mature dogs learn to not go nutty over the squirrels.. those dogs are in heavy woods... always gonna be squirrels and don'r want barking etc all the time... but if one comes to the ground... Callie is usually the first to get it. She loves squirrel meat. If my son is carrying squirrels he has learned to stay far from the fence. Callie will reach her head through and snag in a second.


sadieml said:


> LGD's are not likely to get "fresh chicken"


 Ours do. Of course not the birds they watch over... we slaughter a lot of chickens so they get the meat tossed to them or we freeze when we do large numbers- they also get lots of deer.... some goat when we have it... if we ever start meat rabbits that will be nice too.
OK, none of our cats do that  They just bring their kill to the porch and leave the whole thing for us. They never eat them.
I think we have weird cats.
Of course they all have always liked to "play" with mice... they catch it let it go catch it again... they will do this over and over and then finally after they are bored kill it.
I don't like them playing with the mice- kinda cruel.
Maybe since our cats have always been raised with baby chicks but they do not kill birds- at all. I like that because I do love nature and the birds are so cool.


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## sadieml

I used to take mice and give them a quick end if the cats played for too long, but if you do that be prepared to get the stink-eye for a few days.  Sounds like your cats are just letting you know they're on the job, but prefer what you feed them.  I have one girl who is almost 14, has lost 2 of her fangs and is now enjoying indoor retirement who used to be quite the huntress.  She is also only 5 or 6 lbs, but will put a whupping on the young male who thinks he's boss if he gets too uppity with her (he is about 16 lbs).  It's very cool that your cats don't kill birds, wish mine didn't.


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## Beekissed

I think I really like this Callie of yours, Southern.  I love an opportunistic foraging instinct in a dog.    This Ben of mine is turning out in just this way...alarmingly so.  I thought Jake was an eating machine~he ate a bag of paint balls as a pup, not to mention a whole tub of dog biscuits, and chewed off the lid of a bottle of fish oil capsules and ate those...we never did find the lid..we think he ate that too.  

But this Ben?  He can eat a squirrel in three crunches and the tail will still be sticking out of his mouth after he has swallowed the body.  Chickens heads barely get one crunch before being swallowed, same with the legs...spurs and all.  We think his throat must be incredibly large and tough as leather.


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## Southern by choice

@Beekissed - that had me crackin' up! and then it just got better...


Beekissed said:


> he ate a bag of paint balls as a pup






Beekissed said:


> not to mention a whole tub of dog biscuits






Beekissed said:


> and chewed off the lid of a bottle of fish oil capsules and ate those






Beekissed said:


> we never did find the lid..we think he ate that too.


_"we think he ate that too!" 
_
All the dogs will eat something they catch-  but they will not eat something not given to them by us. I REALLY LIKE THIS! They cannot be bribed. Not all the young dogs have been tested in this way yet but so far so good. Some of our dogs will not eat something strange unless we say go ahead. I like this as there are many dogs that get poisoned by someone throwing baited food.

Years ago there was a house broken into - they had quite a few personal protection TRAINED (professionally trained PP Dogs). They took everything- they baited raw meat with something to knock the dogs out... it did. Thankfully they didn't kill the dogs. Of course that is when even among burglars  there was a "code"  of ethics- don't hurt people don't hurt dogs.

These guys don't eat alot. If not cold enough they just don't eat. 
They will eat deer anytime.


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## Beekissed

Now, how do you train them to not eat things that other people might give them?  THAT would be a handy thing to be able to train into my dogs too.

I'll tell ya a funny.  Today I started training on Ben to get him to "load up" by first practicing on the top of the dog house...it's about the same height as the truck bed/tailgate.  I made the mistake of doing this AFTER he was fed, so he wasn't quite as keen to get the food but there's never a time he ain't hungry.  

Anyhoo, showed him how Jake could do it, gave Jake food for loading up, tried to entice Ben to do the same or even just place his paws on the edge in order to get rewarded.  No go.  I couldn't even lift his paws up there to give him the idea, he balked like I was dragging him to slaughter.  Couldn't even entice him to get close to the edge of the roof, that butt was nailed to the ground.  I tried luring him towards that roof with a piece of food in front of his nose...several times he stretched his neck nearer and got a piece of food, but would not go any further to get another.  Very unBen-like behavior...usually he'll half kill himself to get a piece of food.  

Several times Jake loaded up and got a treat, but Ben just whined and tried to wrestle Jake when he came down.  I placed food on the edge but he wouldn't approach it, wouldn't get near.  I even threw food pieces up there to see if he would follow the tossed food, that got his butt off the ground but didn't get him motivated.  

Finally, I just left the last bit of the food on the edge and walked away.  I lurked around a tree to watch what he would do...he walked a ways like he was going to follow me, stopped and watched to see if I was watching or coming back, then he scooted back to the dog house, placed his paws up on that roof and neatly ate the morsels of food.  

I do believe this behavior was what you were trying to describe when you were talking about their independence.    Or bullheadedness, not sure which. 

Tomorrow?  If he wants his daily ration he'll be eating it on the roof of the dog house.


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## Southern by choice

I am picturing this! 

At his age he may not be real inclined to make a high jump or leap. Large heavy boned dogs like many LGD's are really shouldn't until they feel ready. You can tell if it is that or if he is just fearful or hesitant of the new thing by doing an easy simple adjustment.
I will say it is usually just too much on them to jump high when they are young. It may not be stubborness or being bull headed at all.
Put something large in front of the tailgate so there is a "step" - something large enough he doesn't have to be so careful.Then walk up into the truck and tell him come on boy... See if he hops up and then hops to the truck.
It is alot on their growing  hips, knees and leg joints. It also depends on individual structure/build of the dog. 
Callie is mature so at a standstill she can jump straight up to a 4 ft spool. The young dogs can do a 3ft easily but no 4 ft. Chunk has a big wide heavy build- he uses the ramp. D will fly up over anything- IF he wants to. 

As far as training with food / training to not take food from strangers. It is really very separate yet it works together.

First, I have never in all my years used food to train dogs****. I do not use food as a motivator. Training is all based on trust, loyalty, and respect. Instead of food as reward the reward is praise, trust, respect, and loyalty. I want the focus on me as the trainer not the food. If they trust me they will do whatever is asked. The food motivation concept came about in the 90's- All of us old timers pretty much loathe the concept. It seems to be the norm now. I say people should do what works for them though. This is where the second part comes in... because our dogs are not food motivated there is no incentive. 

With loyalty to us strangers trying to give them food is an insult and a "bribe", in turn that person becomes a "permanent" enemy.
These dogs are smart. Now the retired LGD that lives in the house is ridiculous because the family spoils him and gives him all kinds of food but it took a whole year before he would take food from his "Aunt". And it is only if we are there in his and her presence.
He also has a weird thing for butter... that dog will steal butter any chance. He won't do that stupid foolish food thingy if I am anywhere around. He turns his head to the side and down... the rest of the family - well there is a lost cause there.

****_The only time food is used for training is for tracking. Of course I don't do tracking with a LGD_.


The other factor in that is I follow a very strict deworming protocol with pups - til 16-20 weeks of age... because of this they maintain a very healthy gut without parasite issues so they are not hungry all the time. LGD breeds typically are not chow hounds and often skip a day or days where they will not eat... dogs that will eat and eat and eat should be cause for concern, as they are not common housepet breeds it isn't typical. Young pups til 3 months is different.
A good example is if the dogs have already eaten and I slaughter chickens and toss them meat, sometimes they will just drag it away any cover it for later. Deer meat on the other hand- they always make room for.  Many days I will pour food in their bins and they may only eat half of it. 
70's last week, barely ate
40 (felt like 35) today and they were ready to eat this am... they eat in pm one time a day.


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## Beekissed

Sourthern, how much food(cups) does one of your dogs typically eat per day, on the days they eat an average intake?


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## Mike CHS

I'm amazed how little the working dogs eat once mature.  Not LGDs but my 2 hear old Aussie is full grown and stands at 48 pounds while the Border Collie is 6 mos old and just passed 43 pounds.  Aussie gets 1 1.2 cups a day and the BC gets 3 cups.


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## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> Sourthern, how much food(cups) does one of your dogs typically eat per day, on the days they eat an average intake?


When they were younger they got *a scoop in the am and pm. each. *That stopped when they didn't eat one of the feedings... they kind of self -wean from 2x day.
Now they typically eat *1scoop in the eve*. 
It is cold now 20 something this am but felt like 15.
Right now it is 27 feels like 20. 
They will be offered feed this am.
The sudden drop in temp means they will eat more to pack on some bulk. Last week it was 70+ degrees. 

I will see how many cups the 3 qt scooper actually holds. It varies with kibble size of course, but it isn't 12 cups... usually between 5-7 actual cups of food per scoop. 

Adult dogs generally eat 1 scoop a day.  Summer they skip days or eat some and leave the rest. 
We will offer all the dogs 2 feedings right now with this cold snap, they will usually eat it 2x day for a short period til they bulk and adjust to climate. This is when we give a good deal of the raw meat too... we thaw a package of chicken meat and give it.


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## Beekissed

Wow!  No wonder your dogs aren't hungry!!   I'm used to feeding Labs, which get fat on air, it seems.  They usually eat 2-2.5 c. of food per day and even then I have to watch that they don't pack on the pounds at certain times of the year on the 2 cups.  

I've been feeding Ben 3 cups per day.  Looks like I might have to up his ration until he gets his full growth, if that is what is typical for the breed.  I doubt I'll ever feed more than 5-6 c. a day, though.


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## Latestarter

Mel just turned a year. He has a VERY irregular eating schedule... I've tried to get him established on one but it just isn't working  When he first arrived, he would eat morning and evening ~2-3 cups each time. When he got to 6 months, he would only eat once a day, usually in the evening, and NOT when I'd set his food down... Anyway, to make a long story short, I now leave food available for him basically on and off all day and overnight while he's outside by himself. Some days he'll eat 6-8 cups, and other days he doesn't eat at all   When he empties the bowl, I re-fill it.

I can't leave the food down when/where my other dog has access as she'd eat a 40 pound bag in one sitting, non stop, if the opportunity presented   And he won't/doesn't "protect" his food...

I need to get him to the vet so I can get an accurate weight on him. I believe he's in the 130-140 range right now (based on him putting both front paws up on my arm and when he climbs in my lap in the recliner ). There's virtually no fat on this dog... He's all muscle. Ben is going to be one BIG dog from the looks of those forearms and paws. He's about to really start growing! and he's gonna be a doggie HUNK!


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## babsbag

My female LGD is FAT. She is getting 4 cups a day plus green beans and I can't get the weight to budge. She will be going in for some blood work soon and starting a prescription weight loss food; she is always hungry. On the other hand my male LGD eats 8 cups a day and is on the thin side. My BCs eat about 1.5 cups a day and are pretty perfect. 

I have to tell a funny story about my LGD. She eats FAST, and I mean FAST FAST, and then she sits and waits to see if Francis leaves any food, and he eats very slowly. Well she has figured out that if she eats and then runs a little ways into the field and barks an alarm Francis will leave his food and follow her. Then while he is doing his job and looking for the perceived threat she circles back to the feed bowls and starts in on his unfinished food. If he comes back she gets aggressive and in his face. I have to run intervention. I think it is just hilarious that she has learned how to trick him and the poor lovable gullible boy just falls for it every time. Gosh, I love those dogs.


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## Latestarter

and you wonder why she's fat?   I would be doing my best to break her of that habit/trick. Just me... But it does illustrate that these dogs are far from dumb, and they CAN think things through! little butt head!


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## babsbag

She seldom gets to keep her score; I am in the barn at meal time feeding the goats so I am there to make sure of that.  I saw her do this on 4 different occasions so I know that her alerting  is just a ruse. Smart dogs for sure; well at least she is, not so sure about Francis.   Poor baby is just too trusting.


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## sadieml

How hilarious is that?  She has mastered the art of the "Hey, what's that?" move.  Brilliant.


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## Carrosaur

Just wanted to add my experience with training Moose around the geese last summer, don't know if that's still what this thread is for but here it goes!

I had four adult geese and around sixteen goslings, some had hatched from these adults and some were bought from a hatchery. Moose at the time was around seven or eight months and got along great with "his" geese! He would stay up all night sitting on the back deck or near their pen, listening for coyotes. 

When the babies arrived he treated them like toys. I guess the yellow fuzzy peeping things running across his paws triggered something. He would chase them even after I told him no or corrected him in any way. After a week of this I realized I wasn't going to have a dog for the babies, and had to try one last thing. 

I brought moose out to the yard and let the babies out of their house, then the adults, Moose ran straight at the babies and daddy goose jumped in the air in a mess of flapping wings and honking. He bit onto Moose's cheek and held on, beating his face with his wings, all the while the females and the younger male were screeching with their necks straight and their wings spread out. Moose finally escaped the grasp of my big gander and ran off tail tucked to the garage. 

He never chased a baby goose again!

But really, after that he was very patient with the goslings, and being attacked by big daddy goose just made him respect their space more! He still sat outside every night with them or near their pen, listening for the coyotes, although he probably thought the geese could handle it themselves after that incident!


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## Latestarter

Greetings @Carrosaur from the front range in Colorado  ! Glad you joined us. Is that Moose in your avatar? Regardless, that's one sweet looking dog! Geese can be daunting... and down right mean! Make yourself at home and join in when you wish!


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## Southern by choice

@Beekissed  - growing pups need food a certain amount of calories and specific nutrients that will allow these LGD breeds to grow strong bones, good size and heave energy to do their job. The  first 8 months they do eat alot but after that for their size they really don't.

At 12 months-120-130 lb dog eating 5-7 cups a day is not alot of food. 
Unlike house pets they utilize their food. I cannot stand a fat dog I think it is cruel to the dog. I do keep my dogs on the leaner side as they grow.

At 4 month the pups were eating 5-6 cups a day of Earthborne. 
Of course there are good foods and junk foods.
I make sure the calcium/phosphorus is balanced. Too much calcium is bad for giant breeds.
Our GSd is extreme energy she is only 75-80 lbs but eats obout 8 cups per day high cal diet... no parasites- hard to keep weight on... different breed, high energy. She could pass an endurance test tomorrow. 

If Ben is willing to eat constantly that tells you one of two things or possibly both- not enough food and/or parasites. 

@Latestarter  glad he has no food aggression- we work so hard at this yet some of them still have that so hard wired in them...


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## Carrosaur

Latestarter said:


> Greetings @Carrosaur from the front range in Colorado  ! Glad you joined us. Is that Moose in your avatar? Regardless, that's one sweet looking dog! Geese can be daunting... and down right mean! Make yourself at home and join in when you wish!



Thank you for the welcome! I've been on Backyard chickens for a few years and saw there was an LGD forum over here, thought I might join in! 

Yes that is Moose, he's a one year old Great Pyrenees and a dream of a dog! We live in Tennessee, but I've always wanted to live in Colorado! 

And yes geese can definitely be mean and scary, that big gander that bit Moose would attack anything that turned its back! But if you get them young they're the sweetest birds (until breeding season that is!)


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## Mike CHS

Welcome Carrosaur.  I had several geese at a place we had just outside Memphis and one old gander that used to dare me to run over it just about every afternoon. That critter was lucky that I had a high sitting Tacoma because I never tried to miss him.


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## Carrosaur




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## Beekissed

babsbag said:


> My female LGD is FAT. She is getting 4 cups a day plus green beans and I can't get the weight to budge. She will be going in for some blood work soon and starting a prescription weight loss food; she is always hungry. On the other hand my male LGD eats 8 cups a day and is on the thin side. My BCs eat about 1.5 cups a day and are pretty perfect.



That's something I have found out as well.  Just like people have different metabolisms, dogs do as well.  My Lab/GP mix dog liked to nibble around at her food all day and wasn't a particularly hungry acting dog.  2 c. of feed a day kept her optimal...anything over that and she got fat.  She was around 5-6 yrs old when we got her, so likely due to being an older dog and she had had no competition for food where she lived before and for the first several years with us.

Then along comes Jake.  Couldn't put weight on Jake, no matter how much he ate...vet checked him out all over and said some dogs are just like that.  That went on for a couple of years but he finally evened out and stays fit on 2-2.5 c. a day...anything more than that and he gets fat.  He's got a very high metabolism, though, and moves constantly, whereas Lucy, the GP/Lab, was not a high energy dog and only moved often or fast if she were actively guarding/protecting..mostly at night. 

Jake will eat anything and everything still, no matter how much he's had to eat, so I have to limit his feed even with his activity levels.  He won't gulp a squirrel, though, but carries it around until it rots, so maybe he's slowing down in his old age of 10. 

Now there's Ben...even when he was eating scads of deer meat, offal, and all my eggs on top of his daily ration, he never got fat on it but did grow well...and was still hungry acting.  When he arrived as a pup I had a hard time getting him to eat much until I wormed him, then he seemed to snap out of it and started competing for food. 

Sometimes I think that hungry acting is a lot about competition.  Lucy was a picker until Jake came along, then she became a gulper because Jake was eating fast and hovering over her, waiting to eat her food if she left it.  She learned not to leave it behind, but instead ate it quickly.  She never did that before Jake came along.  After that, she was another dog that could eat any time, any place, no matter how much or often.

Then Ben arrived and found that he couldn't pick at his food either, or Jake would snatch it, so Ben became a gulper also.  Don't know if was due to needing wormed or if he was naturally a picker up until then, but considering how Lucy changed, I'm willing to bet Ben did the same thing.   Survival of the quickest, in other words. 

We'll see how he goes along.  It reminds me of my boys...two big, one more slender.  The more slender one constantly grazes and eats more than the other two put together, eats a way worse diet, doesn't put on the weight, but isn't exactly very active...takes weight off fast too.  The other two don't eat as much as you would think guys that big would eat, are much more active, but can't take off that weight.  Bigger person/dog doesn't necessarily mean they need more calories to maintain a large frame and big bones, just means they are genetically programmed to be bigger on the same amount or less feed than smaller people/dogs.


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## Southern by choice

Spaying a female dog makes difference too. If older they will seriously pack on pounds. Neutered males will too if done after a certain age. 
The gulp issue is often usually environmentally induced.


Typically LGD breeds do not eat all the time, they are not wired that way. Most are deliberately slow. Very very rare for a LGD to scarf down food. Most actually chew their food, they do not inhale food. For them to do their jobs for hundreds to possibly thousands of years, constant or ravenous eating would be counterproductive to their use and purpose. There is generally a cause. Some may have an enzyme issue. Most dogs that are always hungry are typically having parasitic issues or underfed. The issue with fecals on dogs is that some kinds of parasites live in different areas throughout the colon... so some do not show up in fecals... you could run 10 before they show up. Most do not have any idea of the protocol for worming LGD's - it is not the same as for pets or housedogs. There are many wormers that work on ABC but not D&E ... Often incorrect protocol is given because most vets do not deal with actual working LGD's. LGD's are also susceptible to a variety of bacterial issues due to eating "kills" as well as LGD's clean up a variety of "stuff" in the barnyard and territory.

*I share this as general information not any specific dog-* so I am not saying this is Ben's issue or Sig's issue... just general. Naturally dogs have different metabolisms yes but there is a breed factor in there. 
Many who read the LGD forum need to understand this and not just think something as normal that isn't.
 Big difference in observation in X amount of dogs a person has raised, owned or bred and observation and data based on thousands of dogs in a more direct clinical way with a very broad breed base.

I can  tell you it is hard for some new owners to grasp the idea of why they should de-worm again after leaving the farm and going to their new environment, or even having a fecal done. They think "well you have already de-wormed" and I haven't had a LGD on the land before etc." ... this is due to lack of knowledge and experience... there is little actual understanding of life cycles of parasite, stress etc induced overgrowth of bacteria, and general gut health. Some dogs will still do well but may struggle, others- and this is a biggy with the LGD breeds- are stunted. This is why so many small scrawny LGD's.


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## Carrosaur

Moose is a year old and only 70lbs. He's pretty tall but very very lean. His sire was 100-110lbs and the dam was 85lbs. He was the smallest of ye litter (12 pups) but not a sickly runt. He has food out 24/7 but just doesn't eat a lot. Think that's just how he's built? His dad was very thick, mom was smaller but not as lean as moose. 

Turned out fine because he's much more athletic than a lot of Pyrs I've met (LGD or not) and he's more agile around the geese.


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## Southern by choice

Carrosaur said:


> Moose is a year old and only 70lbs. He's pretty tall but very very lean. His sire was 100-110lbs and the dam was 85lbs. He was the smallest of ye litter (12 pups) but not a sickly runt. He has food out 24/7 but just doesn't eat a lot. Think that's just how he's built? His dad was very thick, mom was smaller but not as lean as moose.
> 
> Turned out fine because he's much more athletic than a lot of Pyrs I've met (LGD or not) and he's more agile around the geese.



More than likely improper deworming by breeder has caused him to stunt. A one year old male pyr should be closer to 100 lbs. 90-95lbs on the small side. Do you know his height at the withers? 
Just for scale- our "normal" male pups (Pyrenees) are between 90-98 lbs at 6 months... our shorter stockier males are 80-85 lbs at 6 months. 

Was your boy neutered? Neutering a male too early can cause issues with growth plates... often causing "long legs".

Being the smallest in a large litter can cause the pup to remain small, this is true. Some dogs in a large litter will be smaller. Our runt of our Anatolian/Pyr litter (we had 11 pups- one died) was called "PT" short for Pocket Toli... he was super tiny. He is one of our largest pups now at 1 year of age. We had 2 that are smaller than all the others... they are only about 105-110 and about 30" at the withers. One is a mutant monster!






Here he is by a 2year old 110 lb pyr
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/leo-11-months-crazy.32175/#post-406464

Moose has another year and a half to grow, from here his height may slightly increase... his weight will change as he matures. 

At the end of the day if he can do the job you need him to do than that is what is important. 

I am kind of a stickler when it comes to some things. Sadly too many breeders breeding and not either knowing what they are doing or not wanting to spend the money to properly raise their pups.


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## Carrosaur

I'll figure out his height in the morning for sure. I've met some of the other dogs from his litter, every female is bigger than him, not much taller but much thicker. One of the males now is 120ish, bigger than the sire. 

He is not neutered, have no reason to neuter him yet!


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## Southern by choice

Carrosaur said:


> I'll figure out his height in the morning for sure. I've met some of the other dogs from his litter, every female is bigger than him, not much taller but much thicker. One of the males now is 120ish, bigger than the sire.
> 
> He is not neutered, have no reason to neuter him yet!



What was your de-worming protocol?
Glad to hear he is not neutered. No need to if you are responsible and he doesn't roam.


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## Carrosaur

I'll have to pull all the vet records my breeder gave us and the wormings he got at the vet! 

No he doesn't roam! He doesn't challenge our fence and I'm very grateful for that!


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## Southern by choice

We have geese, they are a pain. They became a pain when we added a pair of Toulouse. It was going into breeding season and the ganders were getting a bit aggressive, they would really charge, esp the Toulouse. So often I would have to make the gander submit. You do this by grabbing its neck and pushing it to the ground and forcing the body down also. It may sound awful but you don't hurt the animal you just pin it until it submits, then let go and he will go away. It never dawned on me that my 4 1/2 old pyr boy was watching all of this. The geese ALWAYS hated the pyrs because they are guard geese and to them the dogs did not belong. They would attack the dogs nonstop and the dogs would move on their way. LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO. But one day the geese decided to charge us again and "D" walked over put his mouth around the ganders neck, gently not really biting down, and took his giant paw and pushed down on his back. He held him there for about 45 seconds then let him go. Goose ran away. "D" had watched us and learned very early on how to handle the geese. I liked this, unfortunately I didn't think this through! In the end they developed a hate/hate relationship.

Yep, my mistake... not the dogs fault. To this day he does not like geese. All of our other guardians don't care but "D" (my best male) does. We sold the Toulouse. He will never attack a goose but will not allow geese near us or near the goats... period.

Our turkeys are territorial like the LGD's are... this is "Amy"... she is also territorial.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/would-you-mess-with-this-dog-lol.30336/

Very glad you have trained your dog to be with waterfowl! Many have a hard time with waterfowl, poultry. It takes diligence. Some of mine never gave a bother others UGH! One of my worst is now full time poultry guardian. Up to 5 1/2 months she was a terror... by 7m it was as if nothing like that had ever occurred.


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## Carrosaur

Oh yes I've spent my fair share of time sitting on top of my biggest gander, crazy bird, but I love him. I got very lucky with Moose. I've met some very bad Pyrs, I work for a dog trainer over the weekends and the pyrs that come through are crazy. Moose is very eager to please and trainable, he can do all kinds of fun tricks and he has great house manners.


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## Carrosaur

Here's some pictures of his body just to show how little he is, don't mind his derpy face in the last picture! He's always gotta mess it up!


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## Southern by choice

He looks very stocky... always hard to tell how big these dogs are in pics if no scale in which to judge it by. 
Amy is our stocky girl- within the height standard just short compared to all our others... she is very powerful though... yet the biggest baby ever. We adore her.

Just love a pyr! They are very special dogs.


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## Latestarter

He's a very good looking dog! Small for a male pyr, but he looks well balanced and he's doing what you wish so it's a win win! You've obviously got a "keeper!"


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## Beekissed

He's very beautiful!


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## Latestarter

I just came back and re-visited this thread because this picture was on the web marquee from @Ferguson K :







"Southern, I think I found a partner for the LGD we are waiting on adoption approval on. This little guy is a started five month old. She thinks he's already 40+ lbs. He will be a monster... He's a little watcher"

So what became of this? Did you get him? Huh? HUH? And what's the status of the adoption? Inquiring minds want... no NEED... to know!


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## Southern by choice

Latestarter said:


> I just came back and re-visited this thread because this picture was on the web marquee from @Ferguson K :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Southern, I think I found a partner for the LGD we are waiting on adoption approval on. This little guy is a started five month old. She thinks he's already 40+ lbs. He will be a monster... He's a little watcher"
> 
> So what became of this? Did you get him? Huh? HUH? And what's the status of the adoption? Inquiring minds want... no NEED... to know!



I didn't see this...


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## Latestarter

Back on page 7 from Nov 13


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## Ferguson K

We are still LGD empty here for a few reasons.

Three farm dogs ( chuhuahua, german shepherd, pit bull... All male... ) missing in less than six months and one dead cat. We also had two goats stolen earlier last year ( a buckskin NG and a black NG, both bucks) I don't know if this rain of terror is over yet. 

I'm still looking. But I'm wary yet. We've got applications in with several rescues. I work 12 hour days, I'm gone 14+ hours a day. I don't have time to start a puppy. I go days between seeing the livestock and rely heavily on the support of my husband. His first dog is a dog that came pretrained and six years old ( mine. ) All of our dogs I already owned when he moved in. I don't want to have to rely on him training a LGD puppy. 

When the time is right... Until then I just drool over dogs and wish.

I almost adopted an Anatolian from the shelter a couple of weeks ago. Someone adopted him before I could get a day off to get down there. I hope they know what they got into. Work should start slowing down soon. That will help.


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## Southern by choice

Wow @Ferguson K  that is awful!
Me thinks you need dogs like my Amy, Eliza, and Chunk... heck ain't nobody stealing nothing... they cannot be bribed either. They would have  to shoot them to get past them.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I had a heck of a dog day yesterday! 

Um... lets just say things did not go as planned yesterday afternoon. No stalls done , no udders clipped. We are kidding as early as Friday and I am not ready- have 4 goats due starting 15th, 2 on the 16th, and one on the 17th.

I can tell you that "Silver" our smallest "pup" (not small by any means) can quite easily take on a small pack of coyotes by himself.  

Don't even ask.

I can also tell you Not Leo weighs 125 lbs. He is solid... I thought he was 130-135... He is "D" to the T! 
He is also a very solid guardian. 
He is also on a round of antibiotics.  Also caught a stinky ear so now that is being treated as well. 

I can also tell you Chunk is one of the best dogs in the world. DD and I love that dog so much... well we all do. He is truly amazing and I am thankful to have a dog like him.DD and I can say anything to him and he will do exactly as we say... he has an unusual ability not only to guard his field, his goats, but also to be completely in tune to whatever we need when we need it. He steals my heart. He is on the "D" caliber. Sometimes I wish I could have this dog by my side every minute... he is so soulful, intuitive, loyal,  and  a  truly trustworthy dog... Chunk will end up being one of my all time greatest dogs of my life. I can tell.

I can also tell you I am glad for good neighbors that forgive you when you have a massive Great Pyr tearing across the property in full throttle barking and not happy he was on "our side of the road"... no incidents... thankfully the dog is not people aggressive and stopped 6 ft from him  barking ... he did retreat when we called. Long story how that happened but it was the mutt Lucy's fault. 

I can also tell you if someone else was available I would be directing you to a link of how to break up a fight.  One reason why leads are always hanging on fences.
It was classic textbook and very smooth BUT it is very hard when both people are 90/100 lbs and the dogs are 125-130 pounds with power that make them like they are 250 lbs each. Believe me when I say it takes incredible strength. 

I can also tell you Trouble ( first up to kid- mini mancha is dropping.

I can also tell you that Leah can walk right under the dogs. But it works better when she walks under their belly between front and rear legs. Since she is 2 feet wide right now it does not work going between "Not Leo's" front legs! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Kinda too wide to make it through. 

Haven't had any time with the dogs... they are trained so no biggy but I missed them it really has been about 2 weeks with just feeding and moving through so not any loving time really. There may have been a day in there but I can't remember it. Got some time while waiting for a visitor on Sunday.... it was so nice to just love on the group!

Also I want to point out ... Not Leo has NOT been in the house since an itty bitty pup... he has been out of his field. When he was brought up to the house their was zero hesitation, complete confidence- came right in greated everyone and proceeded to act like he'd lived inside his whole life.

This is a perfect tempered dog. This is exactly what you want. Strength of character, confident dominance. He is the true manifestation of the Callie/D character traits. I have no disappointments out of this litter but he excels. Simba is almost a clone as well. 
This is why I bred for this litter. 

ok - Some pics-

Leah- Yes this was what was trying to go through Not Leos front legs


 

Not Leo and Leah


 

Leah and the Boyz!


 

DD with Chunk and PT (Pete)



DD with my beloved Chunk!


 

DD with Silver- check out his power house chest  Look at this boys neck! Giving a kiss.... he looks alot like Callie just not the black mask- has her same peak.


 
Fail! LOL  Funny how he climbed right up on the couch! 


 

He is giving me LOVE! I am 5'6" (shrinking was 5'7") and 100 lbs
This gives some scale. He is right up against me.


 

Relaxed and chillin'  LOL took him 5 minutes to eat a hot dog  He had to sniff it, move it around, I had to tell him it was ok he could eat it... DD had to tear it in pieces and he CHEWED each piece. I find that so funny how these dogs CHEW their food. They take forever.


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## Latestarter

Ferguson K said:


> Three farm dogs ( chuhuahua, german shepherd, pit bull... All male... ) missing in less than six months and one dead cat. We also had two goats stolen earlier last year ( a buckskin NG and a black NG, both bucks) I don't know if this rain of terror is over yet.



So sorry to hear this  That is terrible! Sucks even worse that you're working so many hours that you can't even do what you need to do to "fix" the issue so you wouldn't have to worry about it any more. It has become some sort of world hasn't it?...



Southern by choice said:


> I can tell you that "Silver" our smallest "pup" (not small by any means) can quite easily take on a small pack of coyotes by himself.  Don't even ask.


 <--  

Don't ask? Are you KIDDING?! You can't do a loss leader like that! Simply not fair! Is Silver OK?



Southern by choice said:


> Long story how that happened but it was the mutt Lucy's fault.


  Another story needing to be told! Glad the neighbor wasn't harmed and was forgiving.



Southern by choice said:


> I would be directing you to a link of how to break up a fight.  One reason why leads are always hanging on fences.  It was classic textbook and very smooth BUT it is very hard when both people are 90/100 lbs and the dogs are 125-130 pounds with power that make them like they are 250 lbs each. Believe me when I say it takes incredible strength.



Oh man... Did Silver stir up the more mature boys again? I hope none of them got damaged! Are those cuts I see on Not Leo's front paw and legs? Is that why he's on antibiotics? What happened? And what is stinky ear? Never heard of that before...

Sorry you haven't been able to rightly prepare for kidding several days away... I hope you can get at least a little prepared. Truly sorry you haven't had time to spend with your dogs and animals... I know how much that means to you and it's good for your health and overall disposition.

I agree with you on how super these dogs are if it can be judged by the one that I have. Thank you again for allowing me to have one!


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## babsbag

Everything @latestarted said...facts...we need the facts.  And all the details too.


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## babsbag

@Ferguson K   Do you think it is man or beast taking your animals ?


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## Ferguson K

Southern, sounds like you're as hectic as us right now.

@babsbag - Man. Long running fight with my across the street neighbor, we have half an acre over there we want to put livestock on. BUT its in his front yard. I don't want to pick up dead hogs. Also probably coyotes. They're BAD out here. Calf stealing bad.

Send me Silver! Any dog that can take on coyotes and live is welcome here!


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## babsbag

@Ferguson K  So sorry, I would rather take on an animal than a person. That stinks big time.


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## Southern by choice

Coyotes are horrible tonight. It almost seems like they are everywhere. I know they aren't but wow.

So of course dogs are nuts and on high alert.
So are the goats.
Have a goat in the kidding stall she is so ready. Due Saturday but will probably go tomorrow. Thought trips but may be quads again.
Anyway she was very nervous even though NOTHING can get to her. We put Eliza in with her... she is all calm now.

Sometimes I forget just how comforted the goats are by the dogs.
This goat has been staying close to the dogs lately anyway. She also wanted her pen friend... the two goats have gotten very close over the past month or so. 

Meanwhile Silver got "schooled" again by Chunk this time.
Silver wasn't doing anything wrong per se but Chunk is a very stand alone rule the field no nonsense dog... 8 months older than the pups but far more mature in ability. 

Sometimes I feel bad for Silver. BUT  the "standard" for the field is high and the dogs let him know. 

I like his tenacity.  

Not Leo and Pete will be in for the first few kiddings. Chunk will take the lead so I might not put him in at all. If he decides the kids are his he will only share with Callie... he may not share with the boys. But if the boys are in and Chunk is not then all will look after them.

BTW- I need a name for Not Leo- I really hate the name now.

Maybe I will put up a thread for "names".


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## babsbag

LEON


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## babsbag

LEON


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## Latestarter

Well, Mel put me on my a$$ this morning... 

My daughter is over with her little dog and he & Mel love to run and tussle. Mystie is really to old to play like that anymore. So I was trying to get them calmed down in the dining room (they had come in from outside running) for cookies. Well, Mel decided to run between my legs and wouldn't fit, so as I was lifting my one leg to "dismount" (yes, like from a horse), he pushed sideways and as I tried to hop to re-gain balance, he started to fall and I ended up stepping on his tail, which of course rolled, and that was that. He was quite startled to see me fall and roll and thought maybe I was getting down to rough-house play with him as well. Once he figured out that was NOT the case, he laid right down beside me. No harm done. silly moose...

I'm not as young (or limber) as I used to be


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## Southern by choice

Oh my that is scary really! The worst part is when they think oh time to play... then once they realize uh oh -they are so mortified!

Then we feel bad because they are now devastated that they caused us to fall. We end up comforting themmmm!

Hope you are ok and not feeling the bruising later.

The other day DD was checking goats and Ruby the Nubian who is a super sweetie pie has gotten real playful while pregnant...she pushes her head into you - usually very gentle but this day she kinda clunked DD in the chest... DD went oooh as it was kinda hard... anyway all 5 dogs heard this came running  (that in itself is scary) to check out what happened.
DD was sitting  when this happened... the dogs got between Ruby and DD they moved Ruby far away and all the dogs are sniffing DD and making sure she was ok. 
Fortunately they didn't converge on her but did it one by one- can you imagine all 5 at once? anyway Blue climbed in her lap and stayed there.

They adore their goats but it sure is nice to know that they would step in at anytime for their human if they think their human was at risk.


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## bonbean01

Amazing that all dogs came to protect and be sure your DD was okay!  My Keera saved my butt not long ago when ram came to butt me for the first time ever and luckily Keera saw that and raced over and put herself between the ram and me, barking...ram backed off and I got out of there.  These LGDs are awesome!


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## Southern by choice

The following was posted on another thread- I pulled out the parts I thought were important- this is a good topic for "teaching moments". I hope @Beekissed  won't mind!  



Beekissed said:


> breaking up the chicken matings...just now I saw him do that, but afterwards he kind of loped after the rooster. I gave him a verbal correction on it and will from now on~from now on he is not allowed to break up the mating sessions...it was cute at first, but now it's turning into something else. My goal is that he ignore the chickens unless they give distress sounds of a predator attack, so I'll have to teach that to him along the way.





Beekissed said:


> I'm assuming this is part of his breed instincts coming to fore....but I'm watching this closely. There must NEVER be a time he feels it's okay to chase the chickens..not even at a slow pace.



The poster brings up some really good points!
 Sometimes what we see at first we can think- oh that's nice and we can be proud of the dog BUT then can come along an undesirable behavior. On the other side we may correct something that actually is beneficial. 

One of our dogs protected us from a nasty goose as a very young pup- watched how we downed a goose- we push down on the back and hold the neck down til it submits- Our puppy <4months ("D" great Pyr) learned this from watching us. And when the goose would charge the children or us "D" would gently take his mouth put it around the neck push head to the ground and take his giant paw and put it on his back. Keep in mind this was a 60lb- 4month old puppy.

We actually liked this because the goose could really put a hurting on us. However, long term it caused the goose and that particular LGD a hate/hate relationship. To this day they hate each other. 

In the posters comments there is a bigger picture and for each LGD owner the answer may not be the same but there are a few points to ponder. Raising LGD's for poultry is not always easy but is a great asset when accomplished.

While none of us find poultry chasing acceptable one exception may be for mating issues. 
Anyone that breeds poultry know birds generally do not make a racket when mated. This only happens with immature roosters/young cockerels. They fail to court and the hens don't sit which of course leads to the squawking and noise and protest.
A mature roo will court the hen sits and mating is a sweet 10 seconds or less with no noise not even a peep and everyone goes on about their business. 

We allow our LGD's to interrupt a mating where the hen is in clear protest. *The protest is a distress call*. The dogs will charge- never touching the roo- but will cause him to jump off and the dogs may or may not need to lope after them.

The reason *we allow the dog to use their discernment* is because we have lost hens to chicken rape. Yeah, no better way to say that. We have had a few hens that were just pounced on by 3-4 roos one after another and then over and over-til they went into shock and died. We have had some with combs torn off, bloody backs feathers pulled out by stupid young roos. Our mature Roos will run and kick the younger ones off to protect the hens- I do think it is possible the dogs have picked this up from them or it is just their instinct to protect. (BTW- roos we see do this get slaughtered)

The goal for the owner of course is to correct unnecessary knocking off of birds- dogs can learn the discernment. We never "taught" our dogs this they just developed this on their own.

The young dog will often get ancy with first time exposure the the breeding of does/bucks and ewes/rams. Dogs especially young dogs get upset when bucks spar during rut. All normal.

The poster is right on to correct the behavior. 
The pup is young and actually just now entering into the _possible_ "naughty with poultry" stage. The age of the pup is generally when poultry problems start. It is rare for young dogs to have issues.
The majority of the time 7-9 months is "poultry-time". Some start issues at 5-7 months. 
Pups that were actually horrible with poultry as a baby pup tend to be done by 5-6 months. Dogs are silly! 

@Beekissed has diligently worked with her pup for poultry- it is his only "livestock" so he will be fine because she DOES work with him. She will correct and be patient as she sees fit for her farm. 

I thought it was a good thing to use in "moments" because poultry issues are many. As often as I preach on the developmental stages and when poultry issues can arise it still seems to be one of those things people don't think can or will happen.... dog is fine and then suddenly bam- stupid behavior ... and those issues start later 7-9 month stage is still the most common. Also think LONG TERM!


----------



## Beekissed

Excellent points and I've heard about this not so golden age of 7-8 mo. when the LGD suddenly takes a more acute interest in the poultry and not in a good way.  I'm anticipating that and trying to head him off at the pass, so to speak.  

The cockerel in question is generally a mannerly and quiet breeder and the hens rarely offer a protest, but these are pullets so the occasional protest is heard...my WRs are hardly ever a docile female when being mated like some other breeds.  They tend to only submit when made to do so, even as older and more experienced hens.  

You are correct...at first I thought it was a desirable thing..in a way.  Thought it might mean the burgeoning of a protective, guarding instinct in the dog towards a chicken flock and was thinking that's a good thing.  I think it IS instinctive, but I think he's still too young yet to categorize his instincts on this type of thing and needs a little guidance from me on it.  Jake didn't correct him, as he's not alpha enough to do so, so it was my job. 

My first mistake was in being lax in correcting the very first time I witnessed it right in front of me, but I was still debating whether this was a good thing or a bad thing.  From now on he will get a correction BEFORE he even takes a step in the direction of a mating episode, if I am on hand to do so.  He's pretty attuned to my corrections by now and usually it only takes a couple for him to understand...but he's entering the teen months and this might offer more of a challenge in his training than I imagine.  I'll keep you posted and maybe y'all can pitch in with suggestions as I go along...as all animals free range together and some distance from the house, it's hard to catch any and all infractions of this type but I may be able to intervene enough to make an impression.  

I need to do some reinforcement on leash training soon, take him through his old paces, so I can plant firmly in his mind who is the leader here as he tries taking on a more dominant role out there.  I want his dominance to come to fore out there but not to the point that he doesn't adhere to the rules of the farm~MY chickens.  That's the rule.


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## rangetree

Southern by choice said:


> I decided to start this thread based on the many calls and e-mails we get on "how to" work with pups, started pups, adults etc.  As things come to mind I will post the scenario's.  I also thought it beneficial to share the moments we have on our farm with our pups in training. Some posts may be "praise posts" whether our dogs or others that we get feedback on and the things the dog/s are doing that is a "big-deal". Young dogs make big steps and I believe it encourages others to keep an eye out for those big things their own dog is doing and praise them for it.
> 
> Because this is a "Backyard" farming group many have LGD's on very little land and the dogs are being raised in the family farm environment... quite different from those covering hundreds or a thousand acres. Often these dogs have a strong relationship with their masters, this is a good thing.
> 
> I wish there was a way to categorize the posts.


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## Latestarter

Greetings and welcome @rangetree ! Glad you've joined in!


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## rangetree

We have acquired a Great Pyrenees, 4 1/2 month old puppy - she is very docile and sweet natured.  When I took her to "meet the goats" (2 large, Kiko neutered males, 10 months old) she was so frightened, and one of the goats was aggressive towards her, trying to butt her.  She is also frightened of the chickens who don't seem to notice her.  She is becoming more of a family dog now, and we don't want to leave her alone / unattended in the goat pen/pasture.  What am I doing wrong?  (We wanted an LGD to protect the goats, but I am concerned for HER safety.)


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## Southern by choice

Welcome @rangetree  - I have several questions and will try to get to them this evening. Unfortunately I am under a deadline and am just peeking in to see Olive pups from another member. 

I will be more than glad to share more hopefully Saturday eve or Sunday. 

How long have you had her? 
Have your goats ever been exposed to a LGD before?  Other dogs?
Temperament of Goats?

What stock did your pup come from?

What region are you in?


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## rangetree

We have had her for 2 months and purchased her from a family that raises Great Pyrenees with their goats.  Since she is a puppy, we didn't want to just "put her in with the goats and leave her" so she has become more of a family dog and gets along very well with our Golden Doodle and MC cat. Our goats have never been exposed to an LGD, but the neighbor's dogs (who have since moved) used to bark at them constantly through the fencing.  The goats were bottle-fed and purchased as "pets to do a job" - clear the property of hedges, etc.  We are in central Alabama.  We have not allowed the goats "out" on the property to forage, because of our concern about stray dogs.  They have a small, fenced pasture with a barn (where they are locked in at night for safety).  Thank you for your help - we are just learning about how to have a farm with animals in our retirement.  (I'm also learning how to navigate this website, so forgive me if I am slow with a response to posts.)


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## Southern by choice

Thanks- you have given very good info and that helps me to assist you. BTW- I don't type so it may take a couple of rounds of q's.


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## Ponker

I have read this entire conversation. Prince, our LGD is an Anatolian Shepherd from a working dog litter. He was born on pasture to a Momma and Poppa who are working dogs. I have his records but no papers. The aim was to find a dog from a farm with a good local reputation for raising quality LGDs. The breeder came highly recommended by several people and when I visited the farm, was totally impressed with the operation. Top shelf all the way. They raise goats and run LGDs in pairs on several fields. I saw four working pair and several house dogs. She even had one lanky Anatolian Shepherd she took back from a couple who was 'going to move to a farm soon' and when the pup outgrew life in the city, she took the dog back and now he has a forever home with her 'house dogs'. (Live near the house with LOTS of room to run.) 

Prince is 14 weeks old. He is a great dog. I read the book, "Livestock Protection dogs, Selection, Care and Training" by Orysia Dawydiak & David Sims. And still use it as a reference manual. Prince is energetic, smart, and playful. I am training him on the basics to come, sit, down, and stay. In the evenings, before bed, we do a 4-5 minute intensive training session using treats. It is the only time I use treats. All other times, during the day, I use positive reinforcement and correction. He is an entirely different experience than our two Cane Corso house dogs. 

My neighbor also has two new LGD pups and chained them out with the stock, to bond. This didn't seem like the right thing to do for me. They don't allow any interaction at all except with stock. The book I read, said that time with family and the other animals was good. I can't see how a pup can be expected to behave like a well trained animal without some interaction to allow the 'hard-wiring' to blossom. 

I allow Prince to accompany me throughout the day while I interact with the stock. I correct him when he becomes too playful, pulling wool, or biting legs and noses trying to play. This has earned him several headbutts from the sheep before I could step in. He does not seem phased at all by the sheep's corrections. Overall, I am very pleased and can't wait until he is with the stock full time. Right now, he only has supervised time because he isn't mature enough or big enough.

Prince has developed a fixation with Jellybean our barn cat. Prince focuses on Jellybean and plays (very roughly) with Jellybean but Jellybean doesn't run or try to get away. At first, I was inclined to let the situation play out but the roughness escalated to the point Jellybean was coughing and choking. I stepped in an now am trying to correct MY mistake. (Bad Momma!) Prince is smart and is taking to the new limits very well. 

He is mouthy. When I pet him, he tries to mouth my hand. Now, I limit petting to a very short duration which he doesn't get time to mouth. Petting is usually praise. I also give him verbal cues like 'good boy' when petting so he associated that with a good feeling. I use other verbal cues (not commands) when we are working with the animals. By using the same verbal cues every day for the same thing, he will understand my intent when I am doing something. (Probably doesn't need them but I have used this method in the past with success.) He has a toy, bones, and plenty of things to chew. He responds well when I give him his bone when he is chewing something I'd rather NOT have chewed. He knows 'no' and responds well immediately but forgets within 15 seconds, needing a refresher.

He has a loving personality with plenty of enthusiasm for helping (except when Jellybean is around). We have free range Muscovys and he doesn't chase them. He is genuinely curious and I allow him to investigate the trusting ducks under supervision. He has not one time, offered to mouth the ducks. Shocking, since he has mouthed everything else. Hence, the reason for my constant supervision. 

I look forward to more teaching moments. Thanks for sharing.


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## Southern by choice

How old is Prince?



Ponker said:


> He is mouthy. When I pet him, he tries to mouth my hand. Now, I limit petting to a very short duration which he doesn't get time to mouth.



I would correct this behavior... "avoidance" training does not teach.

Glad he is doing well for you. I need to update but just no  time as of late.


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## Ponker

Ponker said:


> Prince is 14 weeks old.



I have used the muzzle pinch technique when he mouths but he isn't phased and I do not want to hurt him, just make him uncomfortable enough to associate a 'bad' feeling when he does it. What do you suggest as a correction for mouthing?

It is a very busy time of year. I'm ready for spring but not the associated rains.


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## Southern by choice

I shove my whole arm in there. 

I will shove my whole arm in and keep pushing ... it does not hurt the dog but forces the dog to back up and keep backing up and they don't like it being in their mouth ( I usually do this sideways on arm). I ask "what you want to keep mouthing then here"... they don't like it , it takes all control away. They learn quick and after that if they forget their manners it is usually a firm "ah" what'ya doing?


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## Beekissed

Not Southern, but I can give you one method....I just observe how my other dog corrects this behavior and I copy his/her response.  A noise~his is a quick growl~and a lunge/bite to the neck.  Not a real bite, mind you, it looks more like an open mouthed, light "punch" to the neck.  So, when I do it, it's either a sharp "Hey!" or "Aaaaatttt!" simultaneous with a quick poke with my finger tips to the neck.  Hard enough to get his attention and snap him out of the behavior.  It works like a charm.  Neither pup I've trained mouthed anyone's hands past the first few times with this sort of correction.  Has to be quick, has to startle the pup and it has to be hard enough to make an impression but not be like a hit...it's just a quick poke or jab.  If the neck area doesn't work, it works pretty well on the flank, right where the thigh meets the belly.


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## Southern by choice

Beekissed said:


> Not Southern, but I can give you one method....I just observe how my other dog corrects this behavior and I copy his/her response.  A noise~his is a quick growl~and a lunge/bite to the neck.  Not a real bite, mind you, it looks more like an open mouthed, light "punch" to the neck.  So, when I do it, it's either a sharp "Hey!" or "Aaaaatttt!" simultaneous with a quick poke with my finger tips to the neck.  Hard enough to get his attention and snap him out of the behavior.  It works like a charm.  Neither pup I've trained mouthed anyone's hands past the first few times with this sort of correction.  Has to be quick, has to startle the pup and it has to be hard enough to make an impression but not be like a hit...it's just a quick poke or jab.  If the neck area doesn't work, it works pretty well on the flank, right where the thigh meets the belly.



For most dogs they perceive that as play behavior. Poking and jabbing for some may make them hand-shy. As a trainer I don't recommend it.  
LGD's would typically see that as play. They are not easily deterred as it is in their nature as Livestock Guardians to not be bothered by such things. 

I say do whatever works for you.


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## Beekissed

It worked!     They perceived it as a correction and never repeated the behavior, so they must have "got" it.   Smart dogs.


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## Southern by choice

Will have to catch up when things slow down... Ruby in kidding stall... but wanted to pop in and tell you all about Badger. As you know he is retired to the house. He gets along just fine with both housedogs. BUT.. Lena (our German Shepherd Dog) was poking around when we brought the mini-mancha in the other night after Zephyr kidded... Badger flew across the room teeth barred, and let Lena know in no uncertain terms that she better move away or she would be sorry. Lena knows not to ever challenge the LGD's. Kind of a "cujo" moment.

Tonight the baby was hopping all over the house and running toward Badger... Lena perked up and just looked at the kid.... Badger took his stance and let out a fierce growl... Lena turned climbed on the couch and looked at the wall.

You can take the guardian out of the field but you sure can't take the guardian out of the dog. 

Funny how with Lucy (the boxer/lab mutt) Badger is never bothered... Lucy doesn't do stupid things either... but if Lucy walked up Badger would be fine. Funny how these dogs just know what dog stresses a goat and what one doesn't.


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## Latestarter

I don't know how I missed that it was Badger that got retired... I knew from a previous post that you had retired one but never saw it mentioned which one. I didn't realize that Badger was that old... I'm sure you love having him there with you full time.


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## goatgurl

once a guardian always a guardian.  good boy Badger, poor Lena all she wanted to do was look at the baby.


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## Beekissed

Love this story!!!    I love to watch dogs interact and see what language they use to correct one another, how they respond to those corrections, etc.


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## Southern by choice

Not a teaching moment but thought this was sweet.
DD never gets to see the dogs... she got off work early and stopped in to  say hi to the dogs....

Everyone comes to say "Hi"



 
"Blue" giving his version of a kiss- nosebump-  "Blue" is very TOLI 


 
Not Leo all the way to the right is so patient but he wants his lovin' - Notice "Blue" he has a commanding presence


 
Not Leo getting his lovin'


 
Chunk has circled around- apparently not getting enough attention


 
Pete getting a hug and Chunk and Silver still waiting patiently
Callie laying up against the fence


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## Ferguson K

So much love in those pictures!


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## BlessedWithGoats

How Sweet!


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## Southern by choice

My baby Chunk snoozing... 

He is my heart! 



 

My other heart! oh and the dog too!  "Blue"


 

LOL- a few weeks ago Chunk about gave me a concussion... I didn't get knocked out but I did have that OK I better sit down for a bit moment and a killer headache... Long story- my fault- but his head and mine collided.
 x 10!

And our sweet Eliza. She is always smiling. 
Such a wonderful sweet dog!


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## Southern by choice

Had to do some fencing repairs the other day and decided to bring "D" up and in the house. I LOVE this dog! He is a big luvvy baby!
His feet are so big... these are 4" squares- yes... from this nasty 1970's floor 


 
After some chicken, hot dogs, cheese... cuddling with "daddy"


 

And today... I had so much on my mind and just wanted to go out and see the goats and dogs... Blue always knows (much like Chunk- but Chunk was in another field)... He just came up beside me sat and leaned in a little... He is amazing. Dropping his winter weight he is down to 130 now... but geesh is he all muscle. Need to weigh all the dogs for their HW preventative.


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## kdogg331

I only read page 8, 9, and 10, and this one cause I saw the picture with the dog with the two Aussies on the home page but I just wanted to say that I have loved reading the stories! It is amazing how similar our dog is too even though he is completely unrelated! I always thought the leg out thing was him telling me to go away, that he did NOT want to petted, but maybe it is the opposite. Maybe he is saying pay attention to me lol he also does it if I go to leave after petting him. He is not done yet. 

We have a Black Lab/Great Pyrenees mix named Gator. He just turned 5 on March 7th. I can't believe how old my baby is already. 

Anyhow, I know this thread is old but I just wanted to say how cool it is to see how similar my boy is. And I do plan on reading the rest of the thread.


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## Southern by choice

Thanks @kdogg331   These babes are all grown up and still just wonderful.
Lost our dear sweet Anatolian female the boy in the pic above mother. One of the hardest losses I have ever experienced in my life.
So glad I kept some of her offspring.


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## kdogg331

Awww so sorry to hear of your loss. 

It is definitely good that she can somewhat live on through her offspring though. You said one of them was very similar to her, right? Still not the same though, I imagine.

That is wonderful they ended up being such great dogs! Sorry if you've said this somewhere but as I mentioned, I started in the thread late, so how big was the litter and how many did you keep?

Our boy is strongly Pyr but does have some Lab traits, like wanting to be with his people all the time. Though that's probably more a Pyr trait too? He is a very sweet and loving boy. And the laziest dog I have ever seen. Gladly sleeps all day. Although Pyrs never really sleep, always one eye open as I am sure you know. He's not great with the chickens and I do not trust him enough to let them free range with him out but I think that's just the Lab side and largely because he hasn't had that much exposure to them. He is making good progress though. But it is amazing the lack of exercise needs, our old Lab was always off the walls crazy. He does get bursts of energy where he wants to play though. And all that said, I have started exercising him more because he still needs some and it's just not fair. But he is not in your face at all about it and in fact, has to be almost dragged out most days. 

But once out, he would gladly stay out all day if we let him

Anyhow, sorry, now I'm rambling


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## Southern by choice

No, there will never be another like her. 
She had 11 pups the last one didn't make it .. died right after birth.
*10 MALE PUPS! 

I  the boys!!!!!!!!!!
*
We ended up keeping 3... it was going to be 2 but we decided in the end we could not part with Pete.
We currently have 5 pyrs (one retired and lives in the house) and 1 Anatolian and 3 Toli/Pyrs
A German Shepherd, a boxer/lab mutt and a Neopolitan Mastiff/Pyr pup


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## kdogg331

Yeah, I imagine. Dogs are, imo, one of a kind but then within that, there's definitely extra special ones that are just different. She seems like one of those? And sorry if that part came off as rude or mean or anything, I didn't mean to imply that he was exactly the same or she wasn't special or anything. I am sure she was. 

WOW that is a lot of males!! The odds of that seem really low lol 

That makes sense, some you get more attached to. I probably wouldn't be able to part with any of them. 

But wow you have a lot of dogs!! 

So do the GSD and 2 mixes live inside?


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## Southern by choice

kdogg331 said:


> Yeah, I imagine. Dogs are, imo, one of a kind but then within that, there's definitely extra special ones that are just different. She seems like one of those? And sorry if that part came off as rude or mean or anything, I didn't mean to imply that he was exactly the same or she wasn't special or anything. I am sure she was.
> 
> WOW that is a lot of males!! The odds of that seem really low lol
> 
> That makes sense, some you get more attached to. I probably wouldn't be able to part with any of them.
> 
> But wow you have a lot of dogs!!
> 
> So do the GSD and 2 mixes live inside?



I didn't take it that way at all! 

The GSD, the Boxer Lab, Neo/Pyr  are in and out... property guardians. The boxer lab is an unbelievable all around farmdog! They are in at night and in and out when we are... The GSd and Lab/boxer like to hang out on the porch. Well ... the Boxer lab hates the cold and never stays out in the winter LOL They kinda do what they want... if they want in they come in, if they want out they go out.
The new one is a pup and she is being worked with as a general farm/property guardian. She doesn't care anything about the critters LOL she is HIGHLY protective of her people though.
The property isn't fenced and so she is not safe to go in out... she is on lead or in a fenced area. She is stubborn and pigheaded and has selective hearing. 

Yep we have a lot of dogs... we have a lot of fields and a lot of goats and a lot of coyotes! 
Our Boxer Lab is getting old... don't know how long she will be here.


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## kdogg331

Southern by choice said:


> I didn't take it that way at all!
> 
> The GSD, the Boxer Lab, Neo/Pyr  are in and out... property guardians. The boxer lab is an unbelievable all around farmdog! They are in at night and in and out when we are... The GSd and Lab/boxer like to hang out on the porch. Well ... the Boxer lab hates the cold and never stays out in the winter LOL They kinda do what they want... if they want in they come in, if they want out they go out.
> The new one is a pup and she is being worked with as a general farm/property guardian. She doesn't care anything about the critters LOL she is HIGHLY protective of her people though.
> The property isn't fenced and so she is not safe to go in out... she is on lead or in a fenced area. She is stubborn and pigheaded and has selective hearing.
> 
> Yep we have a lot of dogs... we have a lot of fields and a lot of goats and a lot of coyotes!
> Our Boxer Lab is getting old... don't know how long she will be here.



Okay good. 

Oh nice! So they're somewhat like pets but with a job and more enriched life than most? 

My boy is really protective of us too but we also made the mistake of not really socializing him so that's probably part of it but still. He freaks out when anyone walks by the car. Or the yard lol. One time someone made the mistake of reaching in the window and he freaked. He didn't bite or anything but he probably might have if they hadn't yanked their hand out so fast. But that was a while ago and he has calmed down a lot.

Speaking of which, he used to be a huge pain but really calmed down at 3, started to a little before that, and now at 5 he is extremely calm and just sleeps all the time. But he still loves to play and go places but I think he's just older.

He only goes out a few times a day because he's lazy plus my mom doesn't like him going in and out a million times a day but I'm going to start letting him out more because he's not a cat lol

Our yard isn't fenced either so we have a rope out back but I might walk him around the yard/property. I did that like yesterday or the other day. We have almost 3 acres, about half or a little less is the yard, the rest wooded and we share woods with the neighbors so it's more. He lovessss to go on what I call property patrols lol a walk but on our property. He can be reactive to some dogs so he doesn't go on many walks anymore but we do go to the mailbox (our driveway is long) at less busy times. But now with all the ticks patrols are hard. We didn't get very cold this winter so it's a bad year for ticks. :/ 

Oh and I rambled but I was going to say the rope was cause he used to run away but I don't think he would do that now.

One time he went down the street to the pond for a swim then came right back. It was a hot summer day. 

Anyway, sorry for rambling so much!!!

That makes sense why you have so many dogs then. We only have the one dog, a cat, and chickens. We don't let the chickens free range but I'm starting to let them some. I don't trust Gator with them yet. And we might get goats as you know 

Oh and I have 4 goldfish. I had 6 but 2 died. But yeah.


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## Southern by choice

See this is the stuff we do "over here"... we talk and engage too! 
Yes, all the animals I own have purpose.
Dogs SHOULD always have purpose. If not they become neurotic. That is why we have so many pets out their on anti anxiety drugs,  
People buy terriers and yet freak if they chase a rat or a rabbit. 

Some dogs it doesn't matter how socialozed they are... people forget there is a genetic make up too. 

If you get goats you will  them. 
You don't even want to know how many I have.  I DON'T want to know how many I have.


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## kdogg331

I should come to this site more often. 

Hmm, you're right about that. I feel like Gator's bored and he does anxiety cause sometimes theres yelling which he haaaateees. He's a very sensitive boy. We're on one such patrol right now though but he found a chipmunk den and won't give it up and is having VERY selective hearing. 

But at least he's doing a job and getting tired? Lol the chipmunk already ran away but he doesn't know that.

And yeah, I don't get people that get terriers, border collies, etc., high energy, intelligent dogs, then don't exercise it and crate it all day, overfeed, etc., then wonder why they are neurotic. 

And hmmm, that's true. But I think with Gator because of the Lab, he could love dogs (and some dogs he does) and/or learn to not freak out about people but because we didn't socialize at all and he's kind of a nervous wreck to begin with (and hates loud noises etc.), it makes him worse I think. He tends overcompensate and go crazy barking etc even when it's not necessary. But I'm trying to fix some of that and it's going pretty well.

And yeah, I'm pretty excited to possibly get them.


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## kdogg331

Oh and also, he loves people he meets on walks or once they get inside (which sometimes we have leash him or lock him in another room to get them in) but he's just very protective of the house/property


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## kdogg331

My baby Gator


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## kdogg331

Some more. Sorry, went a little crazy with the pictures. 

The last 2 are today, hot on the trail of that chipmunk. 

And I think you can click on them for the better quality ones? I didn't wanna post a million full size ones


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## Baymule

Love your Gator!! I love the look on his face. We have 2 Great Pyrenees, 1 Australian Shepherd and a black Lab/Great Dane mix. The latter two are house pets/farm dogs.


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## kdogg331

Baymule said:


> Love your Gator!! I love the look on his face. We have 2 Great Pyrenees, 1 Australian Shepherd and a black Lab/Great Dane mix. The latter two are house pets/farm dogs.



Aww thanks! Yeah, his face is one of his best features imo haha it's just so sweet and lovable.  and his ears are so soft haha

Awww your dogs sound adorable! I love Aussies and I bet the lab/dane is as big or bigger than Gator haha 

I forget if I said but he's black Lab/Great Pyrenees


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## Southern by choice

I love these pics! @kdogg331


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## kdogg331

Southern by choice said:


> I love these pics! @kdogg331



Thanks!! He's really a sweetie


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## Prairie Fleur

Read thru this whole thread today. Stuck inside with a sinus infection so needed something interesting to read. I have 2 LGDs and a rough collie. My male, London is full Pyr and looks a lot like Chunk. My female is a Sarplaininac/Anatolian Shepherd. I got her as a 16 week old pup as a replacement for an adult Pyr female I had that wouldn't stay home. The problem I had with her is that she was basically not handled at all as a baby puppy before we got her and while she can be quite needs and likes her pets she doesn't rely on us like I'd like her too. Also she goes completely crazy on a leash or if you grab her collar. Totally shuts down and will get a bit aggressive out of fear it seems. She is currently penned with my does and their kids and I've been Very pleased with how well she's done with them. This can be a real problem if I let her out to run and play with London a bit because she won't come to me when I call to put her away at night and will just deliberately avoid me. After the last episode of playing hard to catch and being a real Pill I put her back in with the goats and we put a hot wire around the bottom of the fence so she couldn't dig out. I've left her there since then with no play time out of the goats pasture because of the catching issue. (I haven't been able to work with her at all this spring to not feeling well and being stuck indoors a good share of the time.) On the upside she's been excellent with the goats, very interested and concerned when the does kid. She has played with several of the kids later on but yelling NO at her and making it Very clear that was NOT ok seems to have fixed the problem. 
My male had a real problem with killing chickens until we got the female (that we had to rehome due to her terrible wandering habits). One afternoon I was outside doing chores and several young chickens the age London Loved to chase were scratching close by. I saw him eyeing them and so did the older female. She looked at him, looked and the chickens and growled. To my knowledge he's never bothered the chickens since. 
London is definitely, hands down the best dog I've ever had. I've never had a relationship based on mutual understanding like this and other than the chicken killing issues as a puppy he's been the easiest dog I've ever had to pleasure to teach manners to. My bestie brings her kids over on a regular basis and they all love him to bits. He's definitely a one person dog even tho he loves kids and his 'extended family'.


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## Prairie Fleur

Ps. The rough collies is just a pet tho he does bark if he hears something strange. He's the most head in the clouds, silly but lovable dog I've ever met. He goes bumbling thru our flock of chickens, over the cats and I don't know if he ever realizes they were even there!! 
I'm hoping to get a Great Dane puppy as a pet and companion/house guardian in the next year or so but I'm not sure yet how London will react to a new puppy especially one that lives in the house with His 'mom'! Also have been concerned about integrating a Dane into a farm/livestock type home. Guess we'll see if I ever even manage to get one and deal with it then.


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## Baymule

@Prairie Fleur you have beautiful dogs.


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## Prairie Fleur

Thanks @Baymule!!! I think they're pretty special myself!


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## mystang89

Very beautiful dogs! We have 1GP and she's wonderful. I plan on getting a second one to guard my sheep one day. How do you keep weight on yours? My female weights 55lbs and I can NOT get her weight above that. She's on 30% protein for, the sports dog formula from diamond. She has access to food all day and night and she's wormed. 

I'm thinking about feeding her rabbit.


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## Bruce

SBC will have real answers but:
How old is she? I suspect that would make a difference.


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## mystang89

Bruce said:


> SBC will have real answers but:
> How old is she? I suspect that would make a difference.


Sorry I did forget to put that. She's 2 y/o.


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## Bruce

Full GP?? Yeah that is WAY light. Maybe you got a mini


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## mystang89

Yep full lol.  I saw the mother and father on site. Both very large and beefy. Thing is she doesn't act like she's starving. She's got lots of energy to run around and everything but if you did the spine /ribs test (running your hand down the spine or feeling the ribs they are pronounced. Took her to the vet and they didn't find anything wrong with her but said they'd rate her 4/10 in the weight department.


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## Southern by choice

mystang89 said:


> Very beautiful dogs! We have 1GP and she's wonderful. I plan on getting a second one to guard my sheep one day. How do you keep weight on yours? My female weights 55lbs and I can NOT get her weight above that. She's on 30% protein for, the sports dog formula from diamond. She has access to food all day and night and she's wormed.
> 
> I'm thinking about feeding her rabbit.





mystang89 said:


> Sorry I did forget to put that. She's 2 y/o.





mystang89 said:


> Yep full lol.  I saw the mother and father on site. Both very large and beefy. Thing is she doesn't act like she's starving. She's got lots of energy to run around and everything but if you did the spine /ribs test (running your hand down the spine or feeling the ribs they are pronounced. Took her to the vet and they didn't find anything wrong with her but said they'd rate her 4/10 in the weight department.



@55 lbs I would suspect one of the following-
~the dam had more than 1 sire in that litter
~dogs may be severely inbred
~has a metabolic disease
~environmental cause

There are small Pyrs out their but those dogs are 75-80 lbs at the lightest.
55 - there is something wrong.  Whipworms are rarely seen in fecals but are generally treated by symptoms- I would treat for possible whips.
If the dog had Giardia or coccidia as a pup that can cause permanent damage.

I would also run a blood panel and check for EPI

The dog should never be bred.


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## Baymule

I have a female GP that is a lightweight too. She is 65 pounds, has all the food she wants, gets special yummies, and has been checked out by the vet. She's about 10 years old, is a great chicken and sheep guard and like SBC said, will never be bred. As far as her breeding goes--????


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