# Which breed?



## elevan (Jan 21, 2014)

We're considering getting into meat rabbits...if we can find a processor in Ohio that does rabbits.  We know how to process them ourselves but this will be meat for sale and it must be processed in a state inspected facility.

Anyway...

What breed would you recommend?  

Which one has the best meat to bone ration in your opinion?

What about best feed conversion?

Thanks!


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## oddcluck (Jan 21, 2014)

Hello!
Personally I still think the old stand-bys, New Zealand Whites and Californians, are the best for meat production.

Quite a few people I know have switched to Flemish because of their size but a lot of the heft of these rabbits is bone. I would rather sell meat to my customers, not bone.

I'm thinking of infusing some spotted Rex into the herd for the sale of their pelts as a byproduct of meat production.

Just my opinion!


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## VickieB (Jan 23, 2014)

If you're wanting to sell to a supplier, I've heard they want 8 week old rabbits that have reached 5 pounds or larger. There is a huge difference in what they are willing to pay for that, and a rabbit that may be just a little smaller. Before buying find out what size their kits average at 8 weeks.


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## elevan (Jan 23, 2014)

No, we're not selling to a supplier.  We need our meat processed in a state inspected facility in Ohio in order to sell the meat to the consumer.  We have a lot of requests for rabbit meat.


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 23, 2014)

I would agree with oddcluck and stick with the meat rabbit standard NZW or California.  What VickieB is saying is that when buying your breeding stock, find out what to expect in litter size and typical weights at 8 weeks. Even if your just getting your rabbits processed and selling the meat yourself it is still important to get good breeding stock that will reach butcher weight as soon as possible.  Saves on feed and cage space. 
Which makes me want to ask:  How would they know if they were 8 weeks old or not.  Would they still want them if you had to wait 10 weeks to reach the 5 lb. weight?


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## VickieB (Jan 25, 2014)

I've wondered about that myself, P.O.  How can they tell if a rabbit is 8 weeks or 10 weeks. Yet, I saw on a fb page that suppliers were paying like $1.50 a pound for 5 pound 8 week olds, but anything under that weight would only bring like .25 cents a pound. It was crazy. And like you, I wondered, just how do they know how old that rabbit is?


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 25, 2014)

Sounds crazy, 25 cents a pound for something a few ozs. lighter. Maybe somebody else will weigh in on this.  I have started keeping better track of butcher wts. and age and my last litter of 10 was butchered at 10 weeks 5 days and only 4 out of 10 made the 5 lb. wt. although the rest were getting close, all over 4 1/2.    The 8 litter before that went 11 weeks and only 4 made 5 lbs.  I have to add that if they were paying $1.50 a pound that would be $7.50 a rabbit, I have posted before that mine cost 5.80 to feed out (this includes the doe and part of the bucks feed), nothing thrown in for overhead, labor or electricity.  Plus the cost of gas to haul them to the supplier.   I have read before that if you are going to make anything raising rabbits you have to raise a lot of rabbits.  I have sold 8 rabbits since I started, not trying, just people I know that want some.  I sold them for 10 dollars butchered and cut up.  Too cheap!!!!  I think the next time someone wants a rabbit it's 12 bucks and I'll butcher but not cutting it up.  If they don't want it at that price I have freezer space to accommodate it.  I didn't get into this to sell but when a chance comes up to sell 4 rabbits at 10 that amounts to a free bag of feed so I went ahead and sold them.  I much prefer to barter my rabbits for deer meat.  I still like some red meat and a friend of mine usually gets at least 2 deer in the freezer a year so that works out pretty good and I don't have to go sit in a tree for hours at a time in sometimes pretty crappy weather.


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## VickieB (Jan 25, 2014)

I thought the price sounded a little low too. As much money as you put into the rabbits with their feed it really isn't worth selling, especially when you have them in stacked cages and are cleaning trays. That's a lot of work for a couple of dollars. 

When I started with my rabbits my kits were pretty small too. I raised them up to 12 weeks, and only had one or two make the 5 pound mark. Then I had a couple of small litters. Those rabbits made it to 5 pounds at 8 weeks. When you figure out how much you spend on feed that last month, and you think of the extra work cleaning after that many for that extra month, you realize the importance of getting the kits to dispatch date at 8 weeks. For a while I was culling my litters down to 6 just so I could have them ready to dispatch by that 8 week mark. But then my doe had 8, and I decided not to mess with it and at 2 1/2 weeks 9 kits came hopping out of the nest box... smh (guess I overlooked one) At 8 weeks they all weighed between 4 1/2 pounds to 5 pounds. I dispatched 3. Today I weighed them (they are 9 weeks today) and they weighed between 5 to 5 1/2 pounds. 

Several months ago my largest doe had a small litter, and every one of the kits had strong Altex markings (She is 1/2 Altex). They were huge bunnies. There was a buck and 3 does. At 8 weeks the buck weighed in at 5 pounds and the does weighed in at 5 1/2 pounds. I kept the does for breeding. They are 3 1/2 months old now and are weighing between 8 3/4 pounds to 10 pounds. I have an Altex buck I want to breed them to. I'll have to let you know how it goes with them. My goal is to see that 5 pounds at 8 weeks is the norm.


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 26, 2014)

I guess I need to start working on improving my breeding stock.  I am not even close to your weights.  I have just been breeding what I have and trying to keep meat in the freezer.


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 26, 2014)

I was told that anytime a doe can raise a litter of 5 kits to weaning she pays for her upkeep, any babies raised over the 5 is profit


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 26, 2014)

I apologize for the length of this but this is a little complicated so wanted to provide enough info that everyone who reads this(including me) will hopefully understand it.
VickieB said:
When I started with my rabbits my kits were pretty small too. I raised them up to 12 weeks, and only had one or two make the 5 pound mark. Then I had a couple of small litters. Those rabbits made it to 5 pounds at 8 weeks. When you figure out how much you spend on feed that last month, and you think of the extra work cleaning after that many for that extra month, you realize the importance of getting the kits to dispatch date at 8 weeks. For a while I was culling my litters down to 6 just so I could have them ready to dispatch by that 8 week mark. But then my doe had 8, and I decided not to mess with it and at 2 1/2 weeks 9 kits came hopping out of the nest box... smh (guess I overlooked one) At 8 weeks they all weighed between 4 1/2 pounds to 5 pounds. I dispatched 3. Today I weighed them (they are 9 weeks today) and they weighed between 5 to 5 1/2 pounds.

What breed are you talking about above?

VickieB said:
Several months ago my largest doe had a small litter, and every one of the kits had strong Altex markings (She is 1/2 Altex). They were huge bunnies. There was a buck and 3 does. At 8 weeks the buck weighed in at 5 pounds and the does weighed in at 5 1/2 pounds. I kept the does for breeding. They are 3 1/2 months old now and are weighing between 8 3/4 pounds to 10 pounds. I have an Altex buck I want to breed them to. I'll have to let you know how it goes with them. My goal is to see that 5 pounds at 8 weeks is the norm.

If the doe was 1/2 Altex what breed was the buck?

I am confused (not abnormal for me).  I did a search on Altex this is the first thing that came up:
*Altex rabbits are a commercial rabbit breed intended to produce bucks for use as the sires of "terminal cross" meat rabbits.* Altex terminal cross fryers gain weight faster and go to market sooner. In less-developed countries, they represent better nutrition for people through enhanced rabbit production. - See more at: http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html#sthash.T3SWABdC.dpuf

Not knowing exactly what they meant by terminal cross I looked around and found:
A terminal cross is one of which the offspring are not going to be used for breeding programs or genetic improvement. Usually these offspring are market animals.

So in this scenario you would breed a Altex to a NZW(in my case) and the crossbred offspring would be the end of the line and market(my freezer) animals.

Then I found this:
*Terminal crossbreeding* is a breeding system used in animal production. It involves two (different) breeds of animal that have been crossbred. The female offspring(this by PO: this is the 1/2 altex doe she is talking about) is then mated with a male (the terminal male) of the third breed producing the *terminal crossbred* animal.[1]

The first crossbreed produce a superior animal due to hybrid vigor. Often this crossbreed is part of a rotational crossbreeding scheme, it is then called a *rotaterminal*crossbreeding system if it incorporates *terminal crossbreeding*. By mating the crossbreed with a third breed farther enhances hybrid vigor

So I am assuming that this is what VickieB is doing. She is using a crossbred doe to produce these offspring that are doing so well on quick development. If this is true run thru how you got where you are VickieB.  What other breed did you use to achieve the 1/2 Altex doe and what did you breed her to to get where your at?

PO said:   If this is true then the doe kits you are going to breed back to the altex buck should actually be the end of the line.  Not sure though since your breeding them back to an altex you may be doing the right thing.  I would try it just to find out.
Again, sorry about the length of this but would like to understand this, it sounds like the way to go if you want to improve your productivity.

One last thing I found at Raising Rabbits.com *that goes into a little more info about the terminal crossbreeding.*

*How to Use Terminal Crossing*
*with an Altex Sire*
The word "terminal" means "end of the line." In the case of terminal crosses, this means the offspring are your product (market fryers), and *none* are saved for replacement breeders. It’s the end of the line for the offspring of the Altex sire.

Why?

If the terminal cross offspring are saved for breeding stock, you will lose the genetic advantage provided by the terminal sire. You will reduce the efficiency and potentially the profitability of your herd, because the marketability of the offspring will revert to as before with each successive generation. In this case, you might as well simply stick with NZW.

*The Altex sire will likely be capable of siring offspring for years*; when your Altex sire becomes aged, simply purchase a new Altex herd sire. Also note however: in hot climates, younger bucks experience somewhat less sensitivity to temporary heat sterility, and may be better able to sire litters through the hot summer months.

*For ideal results, cross the Altex SIRE with a New Zealand White or Californian DAM.*

It’s a marriage made in heaven!


The Altex buck confers size and growth rate (marketability)
The NZW or CAL doe consumes less feed than would an Altex dam, produces more milk, and can wean more offspring.
CALs and NZW have been used for decades in commercial rabbit production. The dams are known for raising large litters and for ample lactation.
ALL the offspring should go to market
Market day should arrive on average up to one week sooner than is typical for a purebred, or a CALxNZW herd
- See more at: http://www.raising-rabbits.com/altex-rabbits.html#sthash.MSFiWtsU.dpuf

PO said: Again, this contradicts the rotaterminal crossbreeding explained above but that's the internet for you, lots of different opinions.  Apparently the rotaterminal crossbreeding is working for VickieB.  You have to go thru the terminal crossbreeding to get to the other so a person could decide at the offspring of the first altex cross if they wanted to take it a step farther.  Besides you could butcher some of this litter and save a couple of does to just to experiment with.


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## VickieB (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm wondering, though, if a doe can get 6 kits to that 5 pound mark at 8 weeks, would it not be more profitable for 2 does raising 6 kits to 8 weeks versus 1 doe raising 10 to 12 kits that end up taking 12 weeks to get to that 5 pound mark? There's a lot of rabbits you're having to feed there for a whole extra month.


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## VickieB (Jan 27, 2014)

Well, P.O., I have to hand it to you! You did a wonderful job explaining to me what I'm doing! That has helped me a lot!      I bought my rabbits from a rabbitry up in Peggs, OK. I was told they were Production White. I was told that Production White was bred by originally crossing Altex and NZW. I bought 4 does and 1 buck. 3 does and the buck looked just like the NZW, they were solid white and red eyes. But one of the does had light Californian markings, and she was much larger than the other rabbits. I was told later that she was 1/2 Altex. (I'm assuming that meant the others did not have as much Altex in them) She generally has larger litters, but does seem to have a harder time feeding them. She had a litter of 12 a week ago, and when I checked her box tonight found that she had lost 4. They look like she had not fed them. The others seem fat and happy. 

This seems to be pretty normal for her. Even though she typically has anywhere from 10 to 12 kits, she only feeds 8 to 9 of them.  I have tried to limit the size of her litters by putting her with the buck only once, instead of twice like most people recommend. I did let him mount her 3 times. Next time I'm going to let him mount just twice and see if it makes her litter size smaller. 

Her kits do grow larger than the other does' kits. The 3 kits that I saved for breeding look like they are going to be even larger than her. I knew when I saved them for breeding that there is a chance I could have 3 "mules." But because they were such wonderful does I couldn't risk not trying. 

Last fall I got an Altex buck from AnimalMom. I got him because the other does' kits were smaller, and I felt I needed to bring some new blood into the line. I also got a beautiful Cali doe from her to help with that as well. I want to try breeding the buck with my young breeding does in about 6 weeks. If they breed well, and end up throwing kits like themselves, I will be using them and their mom and my Cali as my breeding does. The Altex buck is also the sire to the litter of 12 that my 1/2 Altex doe had. I am curious as to how the kits turn out. 

Thank you for all the info you posted. I really am clueless at what I'm doing when you start talking about breeding lines. My idea of breeding rabbits is: throw a doe in with a buck and hope for the best. If she doesn't seem to take to the buck right off, put a little cologne on him, turn the lights down low, and put on Percy Sledge's "When a Man Loves a Woman." That usually seems to do the trick... 

The info really does help, and explains why Queen didn't feed all her babies. She's a wonderful rabbit, she has a wonderful temperament, and is a great breeder. I'm not really wanting huge litters. For me, the perfect size litter is 6 to 8. With the amount of does I have I can dispatch 1/2 a litter weekly and always have fresh rabbit in the fridge.  (My daughter usually takes some rabbit to her home also)  A litter size of 12 is really almost overwhelming to me. 

Thanks again, for all the information! I'll let you know how the breeding with the new does goes.


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 27, 2014)

I did a Bing and Yahoo search on production white rabbit and looked thru about 10 pages of lists and about the only thing I found was this:

"A Production White isn't a New Zealand. They are similar, but different. They're specifically bred for meat production and to withstand heat. Texas A&M helped develop them. They can handle the 100+ humid heat Oklahoma & Houston has with just an open air barn and fans blowing above them. Pretty impressive. They utilize the feed SO well too. The breeder we got this doe from, feeds her does who aren't on a litter about 3 oz of an 18% rabbit pellet. That's almost as much as I feed my mini lops (1/2 cup!). This doe just came off a litter and her condition is amazing!
The babies get to be about 4-5lbs by 8 weeks old.Their meat yield is supposed to be really high."

PO> The more I read the info posted above the more conflicting it seems.  The one says:

From above:  "The word "terminal" means "end of the line." In the case of terminal crosses, this means the offspring are your product (market fryers), and *none* are saved for replacement breeders. It’s the end of the line for the offspring of the Altex sire."

PO>  To me this would mean getting an Altex buck and breeding my does and butchering all the offspring.'

Then the other says(shortened):   It involves two (different)breeds of animal that have been crossbred.(PO> in this case Altex and NZW) The female offspring is then mated with a male (the terminal male) of the third breed producing the *terminal crossbred* animal.

PO> So this kind of contradicts the first scenario saying that if you go any farther than the Altex/NZW cross you are not going to improve your line.  


It sounds like I need to get an Altex buck and then I can breed my own production white rabbits.    Trying to adhere to the info above:  By crossing the Altex buck with one of my NZW does would produce bucks to be eaten and does to try the second scenario by breeding to a third breed(mea ning I might need to acquire a Cali buck). 

I looked briefly for Altex breeders last nite and I got a feeling I am in for a long drive. 
Another lengthy post, but not as bad as the last one.  I'm really just thinking out loud by doing this and maybe it will help someone else down the line with this situation.

Thanks for the info VickieB, it was helpful. Also the advice on Percy Sledge, am going to trade all my Barry White albums as soon as I'm done here.


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 27, 2014)

So if I am understanding this correctly, you would be maintaining at least 3 separate groups so to speak or at least 3 different bucks and keeping meticulous records.


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## VickieB (Jan 27, 2014)

I had looked online for Altex, too, P.O. and found the same thing, it was going to be a long, long drive. So I was very excited to find out that AnimalMom had some Altex. I only had to drive about 3 hours or so, and then I got to meet Laura in person. She's an amazing woman. You should see her little ranch! I really enjoyed my visit with her. And I love my buck! He's just a big ol' love bug.


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 27, 2014)

Hey Hens and Roos.  Kind of depends which way you go but worst case is 2 bucks and I don't think the record keeping would be much.  In the terminal crossbreeding method I would breed one of my NZW does to an Altex buck.  The resulting litter would be all for the freezer, end of process, do it over and over again.  This seems to me to be the best way to go.  I will explain after I go thru the other way.

In the other I would breed my NZW doe to an Altex buck, from that litter I would eat the bucks but keep the does I want for breeders and then breed them to another buck of a third breed.  So you would have to have 2 bucks, in my case 1 would be the Altex and then probably a California.  If you were doing it this way your really just using the Altex buck to produce the does to be your breeders and after that he's just wasting feed until you need new breeders.

I didn't find much when looking around for Altex but from what I read the bucks bring 50 or 60 bucks.  Plus a long drive to get.  One of the few breeders stated he would not ship because of the big hassle involved (which probably means expensive too). VickieB mentioned Animalmom  so I looked up her profile and she's in North Central Texas which would probably be a 6 or 7 hour drive.

I don't think it would be any harder to keep track of as far as keeping records than what I have now.  I have 4 does and 2 bucks and none of them are related, so I can breed any buck to any doe at this point.  When I start replacing my breeders I am just going to make a note in my book who I CAN'T breed them to.  I like to keep it simple.

I don't know if I am going to actually pursue this, the discussion just got started and I got curious about how it works.  I am not even guaranteeing I got all the facts straight, but a lot of the information was cut and pasted from other sources not interpreted by me.  I tried to show where I was typing and where I was quoting someone else.  I would do more research before making any moves for sure.

I definitely can't see keeping an Altex buck around if it's not being used as a breeder full time.  I think that I probably shouldn't have 2 bucks now as one could take care of 4 does with no problem.  My thought was if I only had 1 buck and something went wrong with him I would have to wait 5 months to grow a weanling up to breeder age before I could start producing meat again.  I just looked on Craigslist and found NZW at 13 weeks for 10 bucks.  In another 13 weeks he would be 6 months old and ready to go. I also found a mature buck for 15.  At 5 oz. a day I figure a buck cost me around $41.00 a year to feed.  If I raise 80 rabbits a year that second buck cost me 50 cents a rabbit.  Not a big deal I guess.  If I got in a bind with one buck I could probably find a GOOD buck for 40 bucks.  So it's a gamble.

Sorry, another long post will try and do better, it was a good discussion and I learned a lot.  Thanks to all.


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## Hens and Roos (Jan 27, 2014)

This all sounds interesting to see how it would work out.  One question that comes to mind is how would you handle your replacement NZW does?  Would you bring them in from an outside source or raise your own.  Anything brought in from an outside source either as young stock or ready to be breeder stock would need to go through quarantine.

I know that it took us 3 months with our new adult buck to get him comfortable enough with us and his surroundings that he was interested in the does and finally breed the one we kept putting in with him.

Just something to consider


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## Beekissed (Jan 27, 2014)

I like the old standard NZW also...consistent large litters, good fertility, good grow out and feed conversion, hardy and easy to work with~and easy to find, reasonable price.  It helps to breed all at the same time so that those with larger litters can share kits onto does with less so that all kits get an equal share of milk.


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## VickieB (Jan 28, 2014)

Beekissed, I agree, those are wonderful qualities with the NZW. But I can say that the Production White have the same wonderful qualities (other than they may not be as easy to find.) I have definitely not had a problem with fertility or litter size. I have had a few small litters, but those litters were born at the end of the summer, when I started my breeding back up and before most here were breeding their rabbits. Everyone of my does had anywhere from 9 to 11 babies in their first kindle, and I only lost 3 of those babies (out of 39). I have been concerned about the size of the kits, only because I know that they should be reaching 5 pounds by 8 weeks and I am beginning to see that. The Altex and Production White were bred to withstand the hot Texas summers and are very hardy.  An Altex buck is a more expensive rabbit, but the Production Whites cost me $15 for a buck and $25 for the does. I think that is comparable with the NZW.  I think putting some of the kits with other does is wonderful if you are needing the extra meat. I really prefer having fresh rabbit and not having to freeze any, and what we are producing by breeding one rabbit at a time (every 2 weeks) is more than enough for my small family and my daughter's too, so I'm not pushing for the large litters. Because I live in town and I don't have unlimited space for cages, it really works better for me to have the smaller litters, which means I have to work towards that end since the PW have, on average, 10 kits a litter.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the NZW, they are wonderful meat rabbits. But I can say from experience that PW are a wonderful meat rabbit themselves, if you're wanting large 5 pound  8 week old fryers.


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## Beachbunny (Jan 28, 2014)

elevan said:


> We're considering getting into meat rabbits...if we can find a processor in Ohio that does rabbits.  We know how to process them ourselves but this will be meat for sale and it must be processed in a state inspected facility.
> 
> Anyway...
> 
> ...


I've read this entire post and no one mentioned American Chinchillas so I will.  I have been breeding them for meat for about a year now and find them to be very easy to work with. One of the reasons I chose them is their heritage status and rare breed status...i get meat and can keep them from disappearing from the rabbit world.  Mine do not reach the 8 week/5lb mark as of yet but I think that is because I feed fodder instead of pellets(much cheaper).   They do reach the 5lb mark by week 10 or 11.  I am not so concerned about cost/feed/meat ratios but more so that I know where and what exactly the meat we eat is..no chemicals, antibiotics, no water weight added. just had to add my 2 cents to the thread.


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 28, 2014)

Thanks Hens and Roos, good point.  Replacement does would require another buck to have a pure NZW breeder or like you said go to an outside source.  Beekissed also has a good point, I already have what I need to produce all that I need except I need to pay more attention to what I am doing. I have 5 in the freezer, 3 kits in a small litter a week old and the next doe in line hit day 33 today with fur in the nest box and still no litter.  I have 2 more bred but Feb. 18 is the next due date.  Were all in different situations with different conditions and goals.  VickieB has a plan that suits her needs and it is working out well.  If I ran across an Altex buck close and at the right price I would probably give it a try with one of my does, but it would take a lot of rabbits to recover the travel costs of a long trip to get one.  
I am going to concentrate on getting my rabbits back down to the proper weight and breeding them as soon as the kits are weaned until I get 30 ahead in the freezer.


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## autumnprairie (Jan 28, 2014)

I have raised NZ and Californians, I prefer NZ bigger litters and better mothers. The meat to bone ratio is the best out if all of them. I thought you were moving? Did things change? Missed ya too


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## VickieB (Jan 29, 2014)

"So I am assuming that this is what VickieB is doing. She is using a crossbred doe to produce these offspring that are doing so well on quick development. If this is true run thru how you got where you are VickieB. What other breed did you use to achieve the 1/2 Altex doe and what did you breed her to to get where your at?"  

P.O., I went on to re-read what you had written about the Altex and saw this question. Queen is 1/2 Altex, and half NZW. I bred Queen twice last spring, before the summer break. Those were her first kindles. I bred her to a Production White. He really looks more like a NZW than the Altex, which is common with the PW. He is a little smaller than she is. Because he's PW he does have the Altex in his background though. Her first litters had 11 and 10 respectively, and the kits were small. They didn't start reaching that 5 pound mark until the 12th week. (I'm beginning to think that the small size was either due to the heat, or the fact that these were her first litters, or a combination of both)  I bred her for the 3rd time with the same PW buck in September. She kindled only 4 kits in October, 3 does and 1 buck. They had the markings of an Altex, and they were much larger, even at birth. She has had kits with those markings before but their markings weren't nearly as dark as these. They weighed 1 pound at 3 weeks, but by 8 weeks they were all over 5 pounds, the does being 5 1/2 pounds. When those babies were 4 weeks I bred her again to the same buck. She had 9 babies that time. All of those babies reached 5 pounds by 8 1/2 weeks. 

I got my Altex buck in the fall, and bred him to Queen on the next breeding. She kindled last week. She had 12 babies, but has lost 4. They're only ten days old, and I don't start weighing them until 3 weeks. I hate messing with them when they're so young, so I won't know how they are comparing yet, and won't for another couple of weeks. I also plan on breeding the Altex with the younger does next month. 

I hope this answered those questions. I'll let you know how it all turns out.


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## P.O. in MO (Jan 29, 2014)

Thanks for answering that question VickieB, I would definitely like to know how much the latest 8 kits weigh out at 8 weeks.  I would like to see how it correlates to all that info from earlier in the thread.


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## VickieB (Feb 10, 2014)

I weighed the 3 week old kits yesterday. They averaged 13 oz, so they are 3 oz under the 1 pound mark you want to see at 3 weeks. (I had read that kits weighing 1 lb at 3 weeks generally make it to 5 lbs in 8 weeks, and so far that has held true for my rabbits.) I'm thinking, though, that the weather has played a part in that. They had not ventured out of the nest box yet, because of the cold, so they hadn't started eating on their own. I opened the door of their box, and they all hopped out and showed lots of interest in the food. I'm looking forward to seeing if, now that they have access to the rabbit food, they will start picking up on their weight gain... I'll let you know what they weigh at 8 weeks!


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## P.O. in MO (Feb 11, 2014)

I have marked it on my calendar as I am really curious how this turns out after all the discussion on this subject.


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## sawfish99 (Feb 19, 2014)

I will jump in with Beachbunny on American Chinchillas.  We started our meat operation a few years back with a variety of breeds.  We now only have American Chinchillas for meat.  Even the mixes we were keeping were more than 75% Am Chin.  
As for 5lbs at 8 weeks, we never come close to that, but I think I can explain why.  We have specifically selected our breeding stock for larger litters.  We usually have 10-12 kits in a litter.  Our Am Chins hit 5lbs at 12-14 weeks.  If we try to put the weight on faster, they are very fatty inside, which isn't what our customers (or our family) want.  
In our area, there is a butcher shop that will pay me $2/lb live weight for 4-5lb live rabbits.  I never sell to them, but I know their price.  So basically, I can get $8-10 if I sell to them.  If I process the rabbit and sell the meat directly (which is legal in CT), I can sell that rabbit for $6/lb packaged or $12-15.  Not much higher.  BUT - I can save the organ meat for the dogs and sell the pelts for $2.50 each.  So I almost double the value by processing myself.

Regardless, we are no longer selling much meat.  We currently have 7 American Chinchilla does as breeding stock and we will resume breeding in March - half the does at a time.  

I take that 1 pure Am Chin that is 8 weeks old and not yet 5 lbs and sell as a show rabbit or breeding stock for someone else at $35.  And we are cheaper than a lot of others around who sell at $60+ per rabbit.  So my 3lb 8 week old is worth basically $12/lb.  Breeding stock is much more valuable than meat.  We sold more than twice as much as breeding stock than as meat last year.  In fact, our new model is sell breeding stock and keep the meat for ourselves.  

My point - if everyone around you has New Zealand and Californian mix breeding stock, it's not worth much and you compete with all of them.  If you have something good quality and different, customers start driving over an hour to buy from you.


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## VickieB (Feb 19, 2014)

Hmmm  That's interesting, Sawfish. Maybe it has to do with the breed, because I have found that my 8 week olds, no matter what the weight, have much less fat on them than my 12 week olds. They are also more tender when it comes time to cooking. I'm not saying the others can't be used for cooking, that's obviously not the case. But the tenderness of an 8 week old versus a 12 week old can't be denied, and the fact that you have to invest another whole month into feeding and caring for the rabbit to take it to 12 weeks is something that needs to be considered. Some people don't have a problem with this, but it is part of the equation when it comes to how much you invested in that dinner.


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## P.O. in MO (Feb 19, 2014)

A lot of good information in these posts about the American Chinchillas.  It sounds like sawfish has  a pretty good handle on what he is doing and it makes a lot of sense.  I wish someone around here would pay 2 dollars a pound live weight but I haven't really looked as I am barely producing enough for myself at present.  Thanks for the posts.


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## Pioneer Chicken (Feb 19, 2014)

You lost me, P.O., but it looks like you did a great job of research!   I'll try reading again when I'm not like this  or, more like when my brain's fresh in the morning.


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## VickieB (Mar 16, 2014)

Okay, my kits turned 8 weeks today. They ranged from 4 lbs 2 oz to 4 lbs 13 oz.  I got an average on the 8 kits, and it came to 4 lbs and 8 oz. They're 1/2 lb under, but it was really cold when they were in their nest box, and they didn't come out until they were 3 weeks and 1 day. I'm going to assume that might have been a factor, and will see how the next litter does. I have one due today (hasn't kindled yet) with a first time doe. I'll let you know what they weigh once they turn 8 weeks.


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## VickieB (Mar 17, 2014)

I checked on my doe this morning and found a nest box full of dead babies. When I bred her I did put her in with the buck twice, and let him mount 3x each time she was in his cage. I did this because I did not want her having a small litter with huge babies, thinking that would be harder on her than a large litter of small babies.

This is what I found in her nest: 8 large, fully formed babies that look perfectly normal. There were no marks on them to make you think she had done anything to kill them, other than a few very light scratch marks on the head of one baby.

Then there were 2 babies that were obviously not full term babies. I'm assuming they died during pregnancy. Their feet did not look like they were fully formed, and they were about 1/4 to 1/3 the size of the other babies. which gave the impression they had died during the pregnancy, and not that they were just small kits.

Then I found 8 fetuses that were about an inch large.

That was a total of 18 babies.  That was way too many, especially for a first time mother.

I am disappointed that they all died. 

I will be breeding her again within a day or two, and this time I will cut down the breeding to just one visit to the buck's cage, and probably just one or two mounts.


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## VickieB (Mar 17, 2014)

I'm beginning to wonder, because there were so many fetuses all at about the same stage of development, if somehow or other she was switched with another doe I have. 

I have 3 does that all look alike, I can't tell them apart. They are from the same litter. I kept them all because they were such wonderful does. They ranged anywhere from 5 lbs 4 oz to 5 lbs 8 oz by 8 weeks. They had turned 5 months old and I had just started breeding them 2 weeks apart. 

Did I accidentally breed her twice... I guess I'll find out in 2 weeks if the other doe doesn't kindle. I need to get them tattooed.


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## Hens and Roos (Mar 17, 2014)

Sorry to hear about your loss   That's a lot of babies


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## P.O. in MO (Mar 17, 2014)

Sorry you lost the litter/litters.  The last first timer I had kindled a litter of 4.  This is the one I posted about that went 35 days and I pulled the nest box at 34 and it was cold so I lost them all.  Of the four, two were normal size and 2 were small and undeveloped.  I know this rabbit was only bred once.  My conclusion was that they either died or stopped developing in the womb. I thought the other 2 would have survived if I hadn't pulled the nest box but after your post maybe not.  I have rebred her and tonight is day 31.  This is her third and last chance.  Thanks for remembering to post your litter weights on the production whites.  Would like to comment on that but need to go back and read all that discussion again and tomorrow is chick day at the local farm store and I still don't have my brooder temp where I want it so need to get back to that.  Good luck with your rebreed.


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## VickieB (Apr 2, 2014)

Okay, my next doe did kindle so I did not breed the other twice. The one that kindled today had 11 babies, all alive and healthy. I decided against re-breeding the first one right after losing her litter because I have a cycle going with my rabbits and if I did it would have messed that all up, and decided that she would probably like a break anyway.


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## Hens and Roos (Apr 2, 2014)

yeah, glad to hear!


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