# First attempt at breeding



## Hopalong Causually (Jun 5, 2016)

I just had to relate my first experience in this hobby and, thereby, learn what I can from the comments of experienced folks.

First, let me apologize for the mis-spelling of my user name.  I must have been inattentive to my typing and butchered what should have been C-a-s-u-a-l-l-y.  I'll just leave it as it is.  Maybe it will help me remember it.

My intention is to end up with a rabbitry of several New Zealand Red bucks and does and breed primarily for meat but keep open the possibility of showing or selling in the future.  It may never come to that, though.

To get my feet wet, I purchased the first decent looking meat rabbits I could find locally with the intention of working with them in the time it would take to find and acquire breeder NZ reds.  The buck was a six-month old Champagne D'Argent/Californian cross and the doe a year old Rex/Californian cross.  The doe had never been bred before nor had the buck ever sired a litter.   During my first attempt at breeding them, the doe raised upon her feet touching the hutch floor and the buck completed the first fall-off in about ten seconds.  They repeated this efficiency three more times in the next fifteen minutes whereupon the buck began biting the doe's ears nastily.  I took her out and called it good.

At day 12, I attempted to palpate the doe and thought I felt one fetus.  You will see how miserably I failed.

I put a nest box full of hay in the doe's hutch at day 28.  She did nothing but eat the hay during days 28, 29, and 30.  On day 31, I checked in the morning and found a huge pile of fur in the back of the box and pulled fur all over the hutch floor.  The doe looked noticeably thinner.  When I noticed movement in the fur pile, I examined the nest and found eight very active kits.  Two look like they'll be all white like the doe, six appear to be heavily Champagne influenced and all black.  I had concerns about the doe showing due concern in caring for her first offspring but she undauntingly climbed into the box and nursed the litter in the middle of the afternoon of their first day while I was standing beside her.  Now, two days later, they all appear to be doing OK.  The two all pink ones are noticeably larger than the black ones and none are overly plump when checked, but they all seem to be getting enough to eat so far.  

I did not expect to have immediate success this first breeding attempt but everything seemed to go exactly as I read it should at every step of the process.  I'm still cautious but optimistic for growing out the litter.  The doe I considered to be expendable until I could acquire breeder New Zealands but she is beginning to endear me to the little trooper.


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## Hens and Roos (Jun 5, 2016)

Congrats on the new kits and Welcome , glad you joined us!


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## Latestarter (Jun 5, 2016)

Don't you just love it when the animals follow the plan?!  Glad everything has gone so smoothly to date.  that it continues for you!


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## Ponker (Jun 6, 2016)

Sounds like you did everything according to the book and it all worked out. Congrats!

You were very lucky to see your doe allow the kits to nurse. My does are always too shy and I rarely get to see the few minutes they hop in the nest box. I don't palpate because they are either pregnant or not. I don't reintroduce them to the buck at 2 weeks either. I wait out the time and put the nest box in at day 28. If they have kits YAY. If they don't I narrow down the cause and eliminate it from my breeding program.

I'm watching one black buck right now. If the doe does not kindle on the 9th or so, he has one strike left. This is his second chance. He's a new buck and unproven but still young at eight months old. 

The American Chinchilla Rabbits are all now proven and we've had successful litter of eight and nine consistently. We have two registered bucks and two registered does. I picked up a checkered giant doe who has big babies but small litters. She's become dear to me so she'll stay regardless. What can you do? LOL The black buck is her son and I have a cinnamon rabbit that was given to me for help butchering rabbits of my neighbor. So I have my registered breeding pairs for selling registered rabbits or breeding pairs. I save the pelts of my American Chinchillas. And I eat the grow outs. I have added a cinnamon colored rabbit and a checkered giant and kept a black buck from her litter. So my original plan of four rabbits is now at seven with two in tenuous positions. My old checkered giant doe will just stay around forever. Breeding or not, I made her a promise that she could live here forever. 

Cinnamon bites so she's headed for the freezer and she's failed twice to produce kits after mating. This is her third try with Mr. Black. 

I did have a first time Am Chin Mom leave nine kits on the wire in a nice neat row. I could not save them. They died. Her second time, she produced a fine litter of nine kits again. She's raising them as a good Momma should. 

I feed free choice hay, a few BOSS, and high protein pellets. Many people feed a little apple cider vinegar once in a while also. I don't, but want to start. 

It's great to hear success stories.


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## Hopalong Causually (Jun 6, 2016)

I tried to palpate only to gain as much knowledge and experience as I could from this venture.  Obviously, my technique needs refinement.
I am dumbfounded over the change in temperament this doe has undertaken through the process.  Before breeding, she was extremely skittish and shy.  Now, she chooses to come to the opened door of the hutch and is very much more accepting of my intrusions.  My latest additions were two New Zealand red bucks that I thought would conclude my search for breeding stock in that breed to compliment my five month old NZr doe.  One of them immediately developed upper respiratory tract problems yet to be resolved and I'm suspicious of the other going that route, too.  So, my hopes of establishing a purely NZr rabbitry is in serious jeopardy. 

At first, I thought a buck and two does was going to be the extent of my involvement.  It is amazing how quickly I found myself thinking about how I could utilize my other areas of the property to expand into a bigger operation.  Klubertanz is likely to be getting another order before too long.


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## Latestarter (Jun 7, 2016)

Animals can become very addicting!


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## Ponker (Jun 8, 2016)

Hopalong Causually said:


> I tried to palpate only to gain as much knowledge and experience as I could from this venture.



When you were able to feel one kit inside, you confirmed her pregnancy. That alone is a great success. 

Did you quarantine your new rabbits before exposing them to the others? Usually, I will quarantine for a month. Most people advocate at least a month some prefer 45 days. It allows time for nastiness to expose itself and not spread through the other animals. It's a practice most animal lovers engage in to keep their beloved pets or 'family' from a devastating and sometimes fatal illness. 

Was the buck showing symptoms when you purchased him? Did you see the rabbitry where these two were caged? Some people allow others into their rabbitry and others not due to biosecurity. Its a good idea to get a look at the area the rabbits are raised in because a strong ammonia environment can cause respiratory distress. Strong cleaners can also cause it. Getting a look at the rabbitry can give you an idea of the situation.

You might want to call the breeder to explain the rabbits' sickness. A good breeder will make it right. The breeder where I purchased my Am Chins rabbits had his giant rabbitry in an open style barn. We chatted, walked the rabbitry, looked at the wine fields (their hobby), and then went inside to look at the pedigrees and books. These rabbits didn't cost much more than others I saw advertised but they were further to drive. After contacting a few breeders who advertised on the American Heritage Breeds Conservancy website, I chose this one because they were honest and down to earth. A good feeling goes a long way but can get in the way when trying to make a decision. I always need to bring my checksheet and a friend to make sure I stick to it. I;m a sucker for a good deal and don't mind 'fixer uppers'. But with animals, it can be a lot of work and heartache. Best to spend a little extra time and effort up front. It is always worth it. A good breeder will want to hear from you, They might have a sickness than needs to be addressed. They could tell you what needs to be done with your two bucks. I'm very sorry that one fell ill so soon. 

I have a rabbit that went from sweet and loving to devil's spawn. No pregnancy involved just matured into something evil that wants my blood. I did breed her to see if it would help turn her around. I have an aversion to butchering a pregnant rabbit so I'll let her carry this litter to term. 

Cross breeds can be very good rabbits for a backyard rabbitry for meat. I bought purebred rabbits because I wanted the pelts, meat, and to help save the critically endangered heritage breed. They are dying out more and more every day. A cross bred rabbit ( cross between two purebreds) carries a host of benefits. Heterosis (hybrid vigor) is well documented. So if you're looking for good solid rabbits, don't discount those crossbreds. 

If you can share some photos of your rabbits it would be great. Pictures are always fun. It's a way to gauge how far you've come and where it all started.


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## Hopalong Causually (Jun 8, 2016)

Thanks, Ponker.  I'm afraid my inexperience played a roll here.  The first several folks I dealt with in purchasing rabbits were all so honest and helpful that I fell into the trap of trusting people.  That was in my initial acquisitions of mixed breeds.  Then I researched things a bit more and concluded that I would focus as much as possible on New Zealand Reds.  A young lady sold me a beautiful junior doe and I was hooked with her temperament and potential for producing both meat pens and possibly show rabbits.  The difficulty in finding NZr's in this area further enticed me to try to go all with that breed.  After several months of trying, I finally found a breeder about two hours away who had two unrelated pedigreed bucks to sell.  One a year old, the other six months.  She has a fairly large operation and shows NZr's so I assumed (yeah, I know the dangers of that) that they were reputable folks, too.  She met me at an intermediate location, so I never did get to see her set-up.  While we were looking at them, my wife commented concern about the one making a low whimper-like squeak on occasion, sort of like a kit makes.  I, in my inexperience, dismissed this as anything consequential.  The breeder was right there with us and offered nothing to say about it.  I was elated at finding any NZr bucks, let alone two pedigreed guys that looked so good.  When I proposed a reduced price deal to purchase both of them instead of just one, she snapped out approval to that almost before I could finish the sentence.  I'm not leveling any accusations but the whole experience, in retrospect, leads me to think that she knew their condition from the start.  

I put these two in cages along with my others because I'm in the early stages of getting started and had no other facilities.  Within two days, the one that was making the squeaks started sneezing and I immediately built a quick cage and removed him from the others and that's where he remains.  It's been a month now and he still sneezes and has a white discharge visible on his nose once or twice a day.  

The other one started making those same murmured squeaks but only when he eats or grooms himself.  Otherwise, he has no symptoms of a problem.  Have you ever heard an adult rabbit make these kinds of sounds?  He also has a decided dewlap.  I thought that was strictly characteristic of does.  (Again, my inexperience)  He is without question a buck but looks strange to me.  The thought of a tumor has crossed my mind.

My current set-up consists of four cages on a PVC rack with a manure and urine collection system where it all gravity-flows into PVC gutters and on into a container.  I clean it out daily and put one or two tablespoons of vinegar in the container to neutralize the urine.  It seems to eliminate the urine/ammonia odor completely.  This is all in an enclosed shed where I open the window and leave the door open on the other end as often as I can during the day.  I'm convinced that this is insufficient for what I'd like to end up with.

If worse comes to worst, I'll cull both bucks and rack it up to experience.  So far, the others have shown no signs of any health problems.  I'll post pictures once I figure out the process and after my litter of mixed-breeds get their eyes open.


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## Latestarter (Jun 8, 2016)

I don't know but it may be possible to get one breeding out of them before you consider culling them. You'd only need to leave the buck with the doe long enough for him to do his job, so some, but less chance of spreading anything. If you can get good litters and keep them separated, it might give you the start to breeding stock that you need. I don't know, just thinking out loud as I don't have rabbits (yet).


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## Ponker (Jun 8, 2016)

@Latestarter maybe we could get some of the experienced rabbit folks to help out. You know far more about the expertise of others. Can you help get some people tagged who might be able to give some advice, please?


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## Latestarter (Jun 8, 2016)

Absolutely!  @Bunnylady @Samantha drawz @promiseacres @Shorty @Hens and Roos @Pastor Dave There are others, but I can't recall all of them. The above compile many years of experience. I hope they can provide better guidance or assistance.


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## Hens and Roos (Jun 8, 2016)

Sorry to hear of the issues you are having.   If the buck was ours, we would immediately cull(in this case euthanize) the one that has white discharge coming out of his nose-no breeding-no contact again with your others- there is no point in increasing the risk of it spreading.

If you haven't separated the 2nd buck away from you does, I would do so now and keep him away from the 1st buck even though you don't have a lot of extra space.

We ran into a new addition rabbit coming down with a white discharge coming from his nose- based on what we saw, we felt it was snuffles and that we weren't taking a chance of our other rabbits getting sick.

Good Luck, keep us posted.


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## promiseacres (Jun 9, 2016)

I agree I would euthanise any with thick nasal discharge and the one with a "dewlap" may have a pasterella abscess.


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## Bunnylady (Jun 9, 2016)

Bucks may develop dewlaps; they are basically fat deposits. There are some breeds where a dewlap on either sex is a DQ, and some where it isn't mentioned in the breed standard at all (and one may assume is not an issue, either for bucks or does). The standard for the New Zealand says that a small dewlap is permitted on does; I'd be willing to bet that trying to keep that dewlap small could be an issue in an older doe. If I was thinking about showing, I wouldn't keep a young buck that had a dewlap, but an older animal that may be a bit soft all over? I don't think I'd rule him out strictly because of that. 

I won't say absolutely get these guys under ground or onto the dinner table because of the respiratory problem; I will tell you about a little experience that I had. I had bred Harlequins for several years, they are a rather rare and difficult breed, so finding good ones isn't easy. I had made arrangements to have a family member pick up three animals from a breeder that lives several hours away from me. I don't know if the stress of travel caused the outbreak or what, but by the time I saw the rabbits, they were sneezing (the breeder insisted that they hadn't been doing that at home, and having known her for years, I have no reason not to believe her). I kept them well away from the rest of my herd. One, a doe, had been accidentally bred; she kindled a litter that started sneezing while in the nest. They were all culled - no survivors. 

The two bucks I kept separated, but did use for breeding. The does were allowed in the bucks' cages for no more than a few minutes; if a doe didn't breed right away, she was quickly removed. None of the does exposed in this manner ever developed active snuffles, nor did any of their offspring. The bucks had pretty much cleared up on their own, though - I only heard occasional sneezes from them, and never at a time when I had a doe in with them. I knew I was taking a risk, but it was a calculated one (new blood of any kind was hard to come by, and these animals were otherwise pretty good). As I think has been stated, most rabbits have been exposed to the bacteria that can cause snuffles, and probably carry the bacteria with them, but their immune systems are robust enough to keep the bacteria in check. Part of the logic of culling symptomatic animals is to remove those with weak immune systems, thereby keeping the genes for better immune function in your herd. I guess the questions should be, how difficult are these animals to replace? Can you continue to keep them separate from the rest of your herd, and what will you do if the others start sneezing? This may not be an issue of an aggressive bacterium, it may be a matter of inadequate resistance; can you afford to risk keeping that in your herd?


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## Hopalong Causually (Jun 9, 2016)

Thanks for your points of view, folks.  I guess I'm having the same problem as a student trying to learn a foreign language - all the new terms and their meanings.  I thought "snuffles" was a generic term for the various symptoms of a respiratory irritant or infection and could be caused by a number of different bacteria or even a foreign body in the nasal cavity.  Is that incorrect?  If the offending bacterium is Pasteurella Multocida, the prognosis is grave and your hand is pretty much forced, as I see it. Then again, I remember reading somewhere that the Pasteurella bacterium is present in about 90% of all rabbits.  The discussion about different levels of resistance makes a lot of sense.
I'm taking the older buck to a veterinarian tonight and hoping to be able to make a herd management decision based on his/her insight and diagnosis - and the input from all of you.


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## Hopalong Causually (Jun 9, 2016)

I hope this wraps it up.  The vet pretty much confirmed everything that Bunnylady said.  She gave the buck a good going-over and declared him fit and said that the murmuring squeaks were nothing to be concerned about.  She further addressed the "dewlap" as nothing to be concerned about from a health point of view.  The buck has the official green light for re-joining the herd and future breeding.  She said that the triggering indication that action should be taken is any kind of ocular or nasal discharge, neither of which he has.  I'll keep the sick buck on the antibiotic until it runs out and then make a decision.  Thanks, everybody.


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