# Spanish mastiff's for guardian dogs



## TAH

We were going to do a GP or mix, but the problem is there are no breeders. What I mean by no breeders is, @Southern by choice  said you want to get a pup by a responsible breeder, so even if we found one hew knows if it has had its shots, the back ground and etc. But there are Spanish Mastiff's up there. They are very common LGD up there. I am wondering if anyone on here has ever has one and your pros and cons are. And nor are tolis common up there.


----------



## Baymule

@TAH where are you located?


----------



## TAH

Baymule said:


> @TAH where are you located?


Oregon.


----------



## Baymule

I don't know where in Oregon you are, but I just looked on Craigslist for Pyrenees in Portland and found ads for several. Then I tried East Oregon and found several more ads, three ads for puppies.

I know buying from a breeder is the best, but I got a free Pyrenees because she killed chickens and she turned out ok, and guarded my chickens. My husband bought me a puppy from a guy that walked into where he worked, the pup's parents were both couch potatoes/pets. He is guarding my sheep. Neither one came from a breeder and they sure didn't come with any guarantee. I read posts here, applied what I learned, asked questions and used lots of patience. If you want Great Pyrenees, they are in your state, just don't know how far you would have to go to get one.


----------



## TAH

We are in Lebanon Oregon but are moving to Seward AK soon. We don't really want to take them up with us. I have checked several places in AK and haven't found any. We also would maybe like to breed them and we know that the Spanish mastiff is a common breed in AK, the GP isn't.


----------



## babsbag

check some of the LGD groups on Facebook. I see GP and tolis for sale all of the time in the general area you are moving too. It is here in CA that I seldom see them.  @Southern by choice can chime in on the mastiff and their traits.


----------



## TAH

babsbag said:


> check some of the LGD groups on Facebook. I see GP and tolis for sale all of the time in the general area you are moving too. It is here in CA that I seldom see them. @Southern by choice can chime in on the mastiff and their traits.


I have not checked on the Facebook groups.


----------



## Southern by choice

Personally I despise the FB groups and NEVER recommend them.
I have posted on this many times so I won't even go there.
Too many people breeding crap and FAR too many people that give stupid advice and shouldn't give any, NOR should they breed anything.

The Spanish Mastiffs are great but they are not without their flaws.
Very hard to find them without major health issues. 
Genetic wasting disease is a major issue.

They will require training. 
When I have time I will try to send you some info.


----------



## TAH

Southern by choice said:


> Personally I despise the FB groups and NEVER recommend them.
> I have posted on this many times so I won't even go there.
> Too many people breeding crap and FAR too many people that give stupid advice and shouldn't give any, NOR should they breed anything.
> 
> The Spanish Mastiffs are great but they are not without their flaws.
> Very hard to find them without major health issues.
> Genetic wasting disease is a major issue.
> 
> They will require training.
> When I have time I will try to send you some info.


Okay. Thank you @Southern by choice.


----------



## babsbag

I wasn't saying that you should follow any advice on those groups but there are a lot of puppies for sale. Sometimes there are people re-homing them too for legitimate reason, like selling the farm or the sheep.  Just go look around with your eyes open, you might find something.


----------



## TAH

babsbag said:


> I wasn't saying that you should follow any advice on those groups but there are a lot of puppies for sale. Sometimes there are people re-homing them too for legitimate reason, like selling the farm or the sheep. Just go look around with your eyes open, you might find something.


I was saying okay to southern about her finding me some info on the mastiffs. I am still going to check fb. But defiantly be watching.


----------



## babsbag

One thing you can learn from a FB site....how NOT to raise a puppy.  LOL


----------



## Southern by choice




----------



## TAH

babsbag said:


> One thing you can learn from a FB site....how NOT to raise a puppy.  LOL


When I saw this I thought it said (how to raise a puppy) now I get it.


----------



## Baymule

@TAH have you decided on a breed or a puppy yet?


----------



## TAH

Baymule said:


> @TAH have you decided on a breed or a puppy yet?


Yes we have. Spanish mastiff. We are also going to get 1 or 2 huskys to keep out side the goat pen p in AK.


----------



## Southern by choice

Why huskies?


----------



## Baymule

Those are some cool looking dogs. I can't wait to hear about your adventures with them in Alaska!


----------



## TAH

Baymule said:


> Those are some cool looking dogs. I can't wait to hear about your adventures with them in Alaska!


Thanks bay


Southern by choice said:


> Why huskies?


Bears absolutely hate them. They remind bears of wolves. We would also use them as outside guard dogs.


----------



## Latestarter

Huskies and Malamutes are the two dogs closest in nature to a dogs origin; wolves. Not sure why you'd want them with livestock... Cool animals no doubt, but very high energy, high prey drive, and needing intensive training... Also (especially if chained up), bears (and wolves) will eat them if they can get them.


----------



## babsbag

I wouldn't want a husky anywhere near my farm. JMO


----------



## TAH

Why not. I know it's of people that have them around livestock.


----------



## samssimonsays

I too would not want them near my livestock. THeir high prey drive and intensity are what I don't like. The energy and tendencies to get destructive when bored, and that happens often because they are intense working dogs and will run til their hearts burst, If you are going to get one with having no experience with one in the past, do just that. Get ONE. Not two. In my area we have more dog bites and pets killed by huskies than anything else. I would honestly rank them higher threat than pitbulls (which I do love me the pitties) any day. It can be as easy as nurture over nature but in too many cases it is nature than prevails in the dog as it does with many, many high prey driven dogs. THis is my personal view on it. To each their own but I would never risk it with my animals.


----------



## babsbag

Because they have a HUGE prey drive. All the ones I have been around are great protectors but about as unpredictable as they come. I knew a  person who had a sled dog team and raised huskies and she taught obedience classes. Her own dogs could not come to class as you never knew when some other dog would set them off. And she could NOT own any cats.  Also there were 3 of them that used to come to the local Starbucks. They were very friendly with people...tried to eat the King Charles Spaniel that happened to walk by them on a lead. 

Beautiful dogs but not one that would be on my farm unless I had no livestock or cats.


----------



## samssimonsays

babsbag said:


> Because they have a HUGE prey drive. All the ones I have been around are great protectors but about as unpredictable as they come. I knew a  person who had a sled dog team and raised huskies and she taught obedience classes. Her own dogs could not come to class as you never knew when some other dog would set them off. And she could NOT own any cats.  Also there were 3 of them that used to come to the local Starbucks. They were very friendly with people...tried to eat the King Charles Spaniel that happened to walk by them on a lead.
> 
> Beautiful dogs but not one that would be on my farm unless I had no livestock or cats.


Lets not forget they thrive off of pack mentality... more than one can be a recipe for disaster in that aspect. My aunt and two cousins used to raise sled dogs along with a great aunt and uncle, the great aunt and uncle also had two wolves (the huskies did more damage than the wolves in the 20+ years they had both).


----------



## TAH

I understand what you guys are getting at. That might be were you live but not so much in Alaska. My mom had a husky growing up his Name was tiger. He lived to 18 years old never bit anyone lived with rabbits hamster's cats and little dogs. More of my moms friends rhave over a hundred huskies they say they can them around themselves and there animals. It depends on how you train them. I like high energy dogs. I have no issues with them, if you have a issue with them then don't get them. And no I have had NO experience with them but I have family and friends that have had them.


----------



## Latestarter

It's not a function of "where you live" It's a function of the dog breed. Many people in Alaska have both breeds, and most who own them have them chained to posts in the ground with a hut to climb in, to get out of the weather, away from their homes. They are used as work dogs, NOT pets, to pull sleds.  If you visit animal shelters or rescues, you'll find plenty of huskies that were turned over because the owners had NO IDEA what they were getting into when they got the dog. They got it because it was cute and looked like a wolf or because it had different colored eyes. My brother owned huskies, and friends of mine who raced sled dogs competitively had them when I was young. They are a "special" breed that requires a LOT of knowledge and experience to handle/raise/train. They do NOT make good house pets. 

There are exceptions to everything, and yes, there ARE very good huskies that are great family dogs, but that is NOT the breed standard. Much comes from breeding and if you are buying from an experienced breeder who has bred the "wild" out of his dogs, then that's great. None of us are telling you what to do, just providing advice/opinions/experience/whatever you wish to call it.  As long as you're aware of the potential negative possibilities...  Hope you get the perfect dog(s)!


----------



## Baymule

That's what I like about this forum. People offer their opinions and experiences, without condemning some one else's choice. I have been on forums where people were rude and bashed instead of being so polite and helpful like the fine folks here on BYH.


----------



## TAH

That is really helpful.


----------



## TAH

We will hopefully be reserving a pup around the end of this year for next year puppys. The only thing is to decide if we should get a boy or a girl. Any ideas?


----------



## samssimonsays

Male. Lol.


----------



## TAH

Samantha drawz said:


> Male. Lol.


Why? For temperament?


----------



## Southern by choice

PICK by evaluating NOT by color or sex.
If the breeder is a good one they should be placing the dog that would best fit your environment.

These are working dogs not pets so a responsible breeder should be pulling out dogs by their strengths and matching them.
If they want you to pick by 6 weeks a pup then you may want to find another breeder.


----------



## TAH

We just may be putting down a restoration on a SM pup. 

We found a farm in Wisconsin that can ship them to AK for us.


----------



## TAH

http://fallcreekfarm.net/index.html


----------



## Southern by choice

Check if they do testing for EPI

There are some people who do have this and regardless continue to breed. I do not know about the farm you mentioned... but this site explains more about it. 

IMO you cannot just eliminate everything or whole breeds would be gone... but at least understanding the possibility and knowing what you can do if this pops up will save you time and money in the end.


http://www.lgdnevada.com/patron-and-epi.html


----------



## TAH

I had never heard of that before. Thank you.


----------



## TAH

If my dad can get property this next week then we will most likey go ahead and reserve a pup.

We will either be going with a little due 2/18-21/2017 or a litter due 8/9-11/2017. Not sure yet.
I can't wait to train our first LGD. I am the only one besides my dad that likes the SM it is so frustrating. 

I found some Maremma/Border Collie puppy's for sale. I was going to ask my dad about reserving a puppy for when we get up there but then I got to thinking about the cross and said no way.


----------



## Baymule

Maremma/Border Collie--SMART to stay away from that one! Poor pups! They won't know whether to guard or chase! Hope your Dad gets property soon!


----------



## tressa27884

TAH said:


> We were going to do a GP or mix, but the problem is there are no breeders. What I mean by no breeders is, @Southern by choice  said you want to get a pup by a responsible breeder, so even if we found one hew knows if it has had its shots, the back ground and etc. But there are Spanish Mastiff's up there. They are very common LGD up there. I am wondering if anyone on here has ever has one and your pros and cons are. And nor are tolis common up there.


I know people who have both Spanish Mastiff's and Caucasian Ovcharka as LGD's.  They are very happy with their dogs, they are also very selective with who they sell their dogs to and make it really clear how difficult they can be.


----------



## TAH

tressa27884 said:


> I know people who have both Spanish Mastiff's and Caucasian Ovcharka as LGD's. They are very happy with their dogs, they are also very selective with who they sell their dogs to and make it really clear how difficult they can be.


I have heard about the Caucasian Ovcharkas but dad said no because they are known for being aggressive. 

The reson I chose the SM is becuase there common in AK for being LGD's up there. There is also a farm that is willing to help anyone if they are having issues. From what I have read I like there temperament, size, and how lovably they.


----------



## babsbag

TAH said:


> I found some Maremma/Border Collie puppy's for sale. I was going to ask my dad about reserving a puppy for when we get up there but then I got to thinking about the cross and said no way.



That was a good choice on your part. When I hear about mixes like that I think about the song lyrics...should I stay or should I go...either way there will be trouble.   There are some successful LGD mixes like that but they are rare.


----------



## Baymule

I just read back through this thread.....and I had a thought....I know, dangerous, right?  If there aren't many Great Pyrenees where you are going, why not get a couple of pups to be a future breeding pair and take them with you? Surely there must be other homesteaders in AK that would jump at the chance to buy a pup from you.


----------



## NH homesteader

I had the opportunity to get a free LGD pup.  Sounds great right? Mom is Pyr/Toli Yay! Oops...  Dad is German Shepherd/Australian Shepherd.


----------



## TAH

Baymule said:


> I just read back through this thread.....and I had a thought....I know, dangerous, right?  If there aren't many Great Pyrenees where you are going, why not get a couple of pups to be a future breeding pair and take them with you? Surely there must be other homesteaders in AK that would jump at the chance to buy a pup from you.


I have thought abouts this but I am not sure what dad thinks? I will have to ask . I really like the SMs and would like to go with them but I could go with a GP as well. I don't that the bond between us would be better if it was the breed I wanted to go with?


----------



## dejavoodoo114

Can you clarify? You said you wanted the husky for extra protection, wouldn't a few Spanish mastiffs do as well? I'm not knocking huskys. My sister had one and she is cute, needy, smart, independent and stubborn. Lol absolutely adorable. When she came to visit my farm she immediately went after my goats and chickens. Wesson kept her from doing so and watched her carefully the rest of the time she was here but he did protect our stock. Hopefully you Spanish mastiff won't be too friendly with the husky and will curb any such behavior and help teach. On that note, letting the LGD become an LGD before a husky comes into the picture could help a lot as well. Just a thought and good luck!


----------



## TAH

The SM is going to be in the pasture and the husky out roming around wit our pit mix. The pasture is going to be our Lgds pasture so if he doesn't want the husky to go in then I will respect that. But I am not sure how much is to much to let the dog decide on? The husky is going to be the family guard the SM for the animals. We will most likely get the husky before the SM, but do you think it would be okay to raise them somewhat together?


----------



## Latestarter

There is a wealth of info regarding LGDs here on the boards. If you want the LGD to protect the animals, then it needs to do so from ALL _potential_ predators, including your husky. Husky's have a very high prey drive, are very high energy, and tend to try to be dominant.



TAH said:


> The pasture is going to be our Lgds pasture so if he doesn't want the husky to go in then I will respect that.



Don't "respect that" Enforce THAT! If you allow other dogs to be around your livestock, what happens when a stray comes around?

IMHO, If you raise them together, you are asking for problems as they will become a pack and your LGD may become confused what to do when the husky decides to "play" with your animals. The same goes for your pit mix. The field and area where your livestock is should be the sole domain of the LGD. NO other dogs should be allowed in those areas. The home area should be the "common ground" where all the dogs can be together and play etc. Don't confuse your animals about their jobs/responsibilities.


----------



## dejavoodoo114

> Don't "respect that" Enforce THAT! If you allow other dogs to be around your livestock, what happens when a stray comes around?
> 
> IMHO, If you raise them together, you are asking for problems as they will become a pack and your LGD may become confused what to do when the husky decides to "play" with your animals. The same goes for your pit mix. The field and area where your livestock is should be the sole domain of the LGD. NO other dogs should be allowed in those areas. The home area should be the "common ground" where all the dogs can be together and play etc. Don't confuse your animals about their jobs/responsibilities.



I agree completely! We had our pet dog, half Dalmatian half cattle dog, with our Pyr pups when they were being raised. They would not stop her from killing the chickens and one, Wesson, even followed suit. She was easy, because of her willingness and extreme intelligence to train NOT to kill chickens. Wesson was harder once he had started. Seeing each other through the fence should let them each know who belongs where and will allow your SM to properly protect his herd.

As far as how much to let your LGD decide, well, that comes with time. Teach them proper manners and expose them to circumstances you don't want them to react too, watch to be sure they understand their job then one day you will wake up and realize (hopefully) that you trust/respect them absolutely. The hard part is losing such a dependable and reliable partner when that time comes.

Again regarding timing for the pups, the husky would be very likely to teach the LGD bad behaviors. If the LGD comes first and is good at his job he can help teach the husky manners if you want them to be able to cross the fence line. The important thing is to figure out what you want in the end, then make decisions/purchases accordingly.


----------



## Southern by choice

@TAH  didn't you post that you all were buying an acre?

There i not enough space to do all that you want on that acre.


----------



## TAH

Southern by choice said:


> @TAH  didn't you post that you all were buying an acre?
> 
> There i not enough space to do all that you want on that acre.


Yes we only got a acre. Since the grass is covered in snow half the year our animals are going to be under cover most of the time with access outside. We can still have goats, sheep, chickens and ducks and maybe a horse.


----------



## Southern by choice

TAH said:


> Yes we only got a acre. Since the grass is covered in snow half the year our animals are going to be under cover most of the time with access outside. We can still have goats, sheep, chickens and ducks and maybe a horse.



One acre will not support all these animals.
Considering 1/2 year they will be housed and then other half out you will be dealing with HAY and feed needs which will be very costly to say the least. Add to that the wet grounds and you will have  to really think about parasites.

Too many animals will be a parasite issue and a disaster waiting to happen. If you plan on a house on that one acre then your "pasture" will be even smaller. Within a short period of time you may end up with a dry lot. 

A house and small yard on a 1/4 acre will give you 3/4 to work with.
Definitely not enough room for a horse and 2 sheep will devour that in no time. Add in goats and.... well.... 

Now add a Spanish Mastiff and a Husky.  

You will need to think about space for storing hay for all those months. Also where you will put the "muck". That is a lot of dung that will not break down or compost until warm.

Not trying to be a bummer but if you are thinking about importing animals and the high cost I would start with a few and see how that goes for a full year before adding anything else.


----------



## TAH

Southern by choice said:


> Not trying to be a bummer but if you are thinking about importing animals and the high cost I would start with a few and see how that goes for a full year before adding anything else.


That is what we are doing. We are going to get 3 goats and see how the do. I understand.


----------



## TAH

Finally found a farm in Alaska that has SM puppies due June next year. Dad said in a few weeks we can talk to them about getting a pup.


----------



## dejavoodoo114

Congrats! Be sure you look up as much as possible about training an LGD. They are wonderful when trained correctly!


----------



## TAH

dejavoodoo114 said:


> Congrats! Be sure you look up as much as possible about training an LGD. They are wonderful when trained correctly!


The farm we are getting ours from has trained may SM's to be LGD. She said she would be there to give us pointer's on how to train them.


----------



## purplequeenvt

I don't know much about SMs in general, but I am not impressed with my sister's SM cross.


----------



## samssimonsays

Have y'all decided to do the SM? I had researched them for a while. I like the temperaments, ability and everything about them aside for the fact there is only one farm that raises them as working dogs? At least at the time of my research that was it. I am years off from an LGD at the moment if ever. Sigh.


----------



## TAH

My dad is set on the SM.

We are going for a litter in early 2017
http://fallcreekfarm.net/puppies.html

The first litter from Jocelyn is the one we are putting reservations on, We may do zeldas litter but from what I have read on Jocelyn I really like her.


----------



## TAH

purplequeenvt said:


> I don't know much about SMs in general, but I am not impressed with my sister's SM cross.


What was the cross? What about impressed about the cross? We are also considering having a SM/GP cross from a farm in Nevada.


----------



## Bruce

TAH said:


> My dad is set on the SM.
> 
> We are going for a litter in early 2017
> http://fallcreekfarm.net/puppies.html
> 
> The first litter from Jocelyn is the one we are putting reservations on, We may do zeldas litter but from what I have read on Jocelyn I really like her.



I would go with Jocelyn as well specifically due to the timing. Early 2017 litter means you get the pup probably in March when the weather in AK starts to improve. Their plan for Zelda says BREEDING late summer/early fall. That means you get a pup when the AK weather is going south.

Since this isn't planned to be a house (travel trailer?) dog, it seems like the pup would get more attention in the spring. Now if you were living in the land of the Texan BYH contingent, either litter would be fine from the perspective of weather.


----------



## TAH

That is something I hadn't considered. We will have to see what is best when we are ready. Dad said once we have the trailer out on he property we can start looking into what litter we want. He also wants to go with Joycelyns litter.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

edited


----------



## TAH

Thank GW I will read up on.


----------



## Southern by choice

Yeah, that is disturbing IMO- 4 litters in 2 years.

I see this sometimes with pyr "breeders"  their dogs are so worn out and aged so badly they don't live long. Very sad. 
That is what we call a mill. 

Sometimes if a newer line comes in, a breeder will breed back to back for 2 years and "retire" the dog... so it isn't always a mill. Which you may see more in rarer breeds.Just be careful.
No reason to ever do this with a common breed like a Pyr.


----------



## Bruce

@TAH I don't think you have a choice! If you don't have a reservation in now for one of Jocelyn's pups, they might already be spoken for. Unlikely you can wait until they are born.

@Southern by choice Me too. 2 litters a year? They think the dog is a machine? Quite sad.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

If you can't get a reserve in now, that's okay. I wouldn't rush into it because they might be sold out soon. Take your time, talk to breeders, make sure they have the appropriate health testing, find someone that will walk you through. They obviously breed a lot, they will have more pups. They also aren't the only breeders either.


----------



## purplequeenvt

TAH said:


> What was the cross? What about impressed about the cross? We are also considering having a SM/GP cross from a farm in Nevada.



Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with the breed and this particular dog is quite the mixture - greatest part is SM, but he is also part GP, Maremma, Polish Tatra. 

He is a failed LGD since he has injured several sheep. His prey drive is too high, although he can go long stretches where he seems to have "grown up",  but given the opportunity, he will eventually start chewing on someone. 

I do wonder if he has some Border Collie in him as well because of his high prey drive. He, although a big dog, is much smaller than his breeder estimated his size to be. She's done this cross before (possibly with the same parents) so she should have data on the cross. There was one puppy in the litter that was a BC cross (a litter can have multiple sires).


----------



## TAH

@Bruce I don't want to put a reservation down right now. Who knows if we will be ready for a pup next spring that is why I am waiting till the trailer is to the property and we can start getting prepared. 



Goat Whisperer said:


> If you can't get a reserve in now, that's okay. I wouldn't rush into it because they might be sold out soon. Take your time, talk to breeders, make sure they have the appropriate health testing, find someone that will walk you through. They obviously breed a lot, they will have more pups. They also aren't the only breeders either.


That is what my dad says.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

purplequeenvt said:


> Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience with the breed and this particular dog is quite the mixture - greatest part is SM, but he is also part GP, Maremma, Polish Tatra.
> 
> He is a failed LGD since he has injured several sheep. His prey drive is too high, although he can go long stretches where he seems to have "grown up",  but given the opportunity, he will eventually start chewing on someone.
> 
> I do wonder if he has some Border Collie in him as well because of his high prey drive. He, although a big dog, is much smaller than his breeder estimated his size to be. She's done this cross before (possibly with the same parents) so she should have data on the cross. There was one puppy in the litter that was a BC cross (a litter can have multiple sires).


And why the heck didn't the breeder DNA them?!?!?! That is just wrong. If they knew there were different sires they should have owed up for their mistakes and pay the $ to DNA them. All that stress on you and the stock…


----------



## Bruce

TAH said:


> @Bruce I don't want to put a reservation down right now. Who knows if we will be ready for a pup next spring that is why I am waiting till the trailer is to the property and we can start getting prepared.
> 
> 
> That is what my dad says.


I guess I misunderstood since you said you were going for a pup from their early 2017 litter. Sounded like your decision was pretty much already made.


----------



## purplequeenvt

Goat Whisperer said:


> And why the heck didn't the breeder DNA them?!?!?! That is just wrong. If they knew there were different sires they should have owed up for their mistakes and pay the $ to DNA them. All that stress on you and the stock…



I have no idea. I don't think that they knew anything about a potential different sire for quite a while after the puppies were born as the other possible sire is supposedly an ancient neighboring (and neighbor is a loose definition since they are miles and miles apart) BC. But he's not my dog and I was not involved in his purchase (I was not in favor of getting him either) so I don't have any specific details.


----------



## TAH

Bruce said:


> I guess I misunderstood since you said you were going for a pup from their early 2017 litter. Sounded like your decision was pretty much already made.


I should of had been more clear in my saying...sorry.


----------



## Latestarter

Greetings and welcome @BrendaMNgri  Glad you stopped by the site and hope you'll consider adding us as one of your "routine visiting" stops. Always room for more breed experts!


----------



## Baymule

That was an extremely informative link about EPI! Thank you @BrendaMNgri for joining up and sharing this with us, I saved it to my favorites. I have been on your web site before, when I was dreaming of living on a bit of land, wanting sheep and LGD's. We finally made it, we have 5 pregnant ewes, waiting on our 2nd lambing and have 2 Great Pyrenees. I am in love with your Pyrenean Mastiffs, they are so gorgeous! How do they do in hot climates?

I hope you continue to post here and share with us the benefit of your experience and wisdom. We have a good bunch of folks here, those that know, help those who are trying to learn. Emphasis is always placed on the animal's welfare, no animal is considered insignificant.

Welcome to the forum, hope you stick around!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

Nice to see you here


----------



## TAH

Thanks for the info


----------



## Baymule

Nothing goes down easier than the truth. Thanks.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

BrendaMNgri said:


> Because we already have a thread going on this breed I thought why muddle the forum with more - If not allowed please delete or tell me where to put this post instead or move it…thanks!
> 
> I am rehoming two Spanish Mastiff male 3 year old going, trained and full on bulletproof boys I bred and raised for a customer. Located in MT.  There is also a 7 year old spayed Pyrenees/Polish Tatra cross female that must be homed.   Long story short: family meltdown on a huge, upscale, top tier huge commercial/specialty purebred farm/ranch in MT means all must go. That included a rare 100 head herd of Gotland sheep (they are homed as of today), cattle, organic turkey project…sigh…it's ugly, but none of my bee's wax - my sole involvement is finding my precious dogs new homes…..
> 
> These boys and the Pyr/Tatra went up there as an "elite" "LGD Starter Package" three years ago.  They have done fabulous.  Breaks my heart they must be rehomed but that is my New Year's project and cross to bear as a responsible breeder who brought them into the world... .  All the info is here on my website (link below).  Be warned: they are not going cheap - these are the best of the best out of my bloodlines and imported parents.  I mean top of the top of the very best.  But anyone lurking around on this forum has a sizeable stash for that rainy day, this is a rare opportunity to buy a Rolls Royce of SM's.  And the female LGD is a doll - I want her to go to a semi-retirement farm/homestead set up where she can loll by the fire on cold nights, keep mom, dad and kids safe, patrol the place, accompany you to chores and feeding, but gets lots of brushing, love, attention, play time, and rest as she slows down with age (she is 7). Anyhow enough here - I just posted this today, have had 100's of hits already people looking but no application requests yet - here is the link with all the info:  http://www.lgdnevada.com/news---litters.html


They are beautiful!


----------



## NH homesteader

There is a buy/sell/trade section.  You might get more views there? 

They  are amazing and gorgeous dogs!


----------



## Latestarter

I think right here is best. The thread title already states the dog breed and anyone interested in that breed would come here first anyway. Probably following it. I hope you can find the right home and circumstances for those three beautiful animals.


----------



## Baymule

I am so sorry these beautiful dogs home fell out from underneath them. I hope you find them the perfect home.


----------



## Bruce

I think that the phrase "not cheap" with no price tends people to think:
"If you have to ask, you can't afford it". Which very well may be true.


----------



## TAH

Nope! 

To me, $1500+ is a very reasonable price for working good guard dogs. It is different when you by a good LGD from good owner and breeder than buying one like some friends of friends did down in Oregon. They brought from a backyard breeder that called his dogs LGD's (they were GP/Toil/St bernard-mixes). The guy was selling them for $800 a dog. They ended up finding a new home for her.


----------



## Southern by choice

@TAH keep in mind many dogs that fail are due to human stupidity.
People that have 1 dog and need 3-4 and overwork the one dog and create issues. Or unethical and ridiculous raising of LGD methods. 
At least half the time it is human error that causes dogs to fail. 
Many set their dogs up to fail.


----------



## babsbag

And many aren't patient with a pup. They expect the puppy not to play at all, not to chew, not to chase chickens, and not be a puppy. Period. When the puppy or young dog kills a chicken they send the dog packing as a failed LGD when it is often a failed owner.  

Mia is turning out to be a great LGD. Many would have given up on her and lost out on a good dog. Was I thrilled with her for the first 8 months, absolutely not, but what I learned is that I like raising two pups at a time.  (more dogs for me that way too )


----------



## Green Acres Farm

Thankfully, our GP has never shown any aggression or even really attention to our chickens, but how do you train your dog too not kill chickens if they already have tasted them?


----------



## babsbag

TIME is on your side when it comes to LGDs and chickens. All of my dogs have killed chickens but none of them ate the chickens. They looked at them as squeaky toys and when the toy quit squeaking they lost interest.  

I will be quite honest since I am among friends...I used an e-Collar on Francis.   And it worked AS LONG AS HE HAD THE COLLAR ON.  He is a smart boy, no collar = I can chase chickens. So the collar did no good as far as I am concerned and I never recommend them to anyone. I will never use one on Alondra, she is too sensitive. Mia outgrew chickens at about 11 months, Francis took 'til 18 months, and Sig about 1 year.  Francis only chased them in the evenings when it was nice and cool, day time it was too hot and he wasn't in a playful mood. 

I think that the biggest thing is socialization with them from an early age so they see them as part of the farm and not a novelty.  However, my dogs know the chickens that lived in their field and new ones were not welcomed. I would put new chickens in a chain link run for a week in the barn so the dogs got to know them, then I would introduce the chickens to the coop and the dogs were good.


----------



## Baymule

Green Acres Farm said:


> Thankfully, our GP has never shown any aggression or even really attention to our chickens, but how do you train your dog too not kill chickens if they already have tasted them?


Once a chicken killer, always a chicken killer.....NOT TRUE with LGD's. Think of a young dog as a teenager with an attack of stupid. Not all teenagers are bad; not all LGD's are bad. Teenagers that do dumb things generally grow up, mature and don't do dumb things anymore, same thing with LGDs. I got a GP for free because she killed chickens. She turned out to be an awesome chicken guard and will leap in the air at a hawk or buzzard, barking at them.


----------



## TAH

We finally sat down and really considered what would be best for our small farm and have decided to completely change what we are doing.


After reading thru Breda's blog about her SM's, we have decided they are not what we are looking for. I am a bit sad because I love the breed and the looks but am happy with the breed we are going to do.


We have decided we are going to go with a farm dog, not an LGD. All we need is a dog to keep predators off the property and to be okay around the animals so really all we need is a good farm dog that can live in barn/outside.

Well, we have decided to go with the Bernese mountain dog!

Our neighbors have 2 goats and kept there Black/Lab around the goat pen and never lost their goats to bears so if a BL can keep a bear away a BMD can. I think they are what we were looking for all around the clock. They are a quite a few good breeders in AK so we wouldn't have to have them shipped. The cool thing the whole family like the BMD and we are all very excited!


I am aware of there many health issues they have but we are going to go with the best breeder in AK and feed them the BEST we can. We are all really excited about this breed and hopefully be adding 2 puppies's to the family this fall when we are all done building the cabin (yes we have switched again what we are building, dad just can't decide, LOL) and have all the fencing is done!


There is a lady up here that has two that live outside around her livestock and she hasn't lost any animals so I think they will work well!


I will not change this thread to BMD's so others can post about SM's here.


----------



## TAH

This was all I needed to get my sister sold on the breed, LOL.
It is really cute tho.


----------



## Southern by choice

Wise decision! Great dogs as well! @Goat Whisperer  has said for years that she really wants a BMD! 
I saw my first BMD's in the 1970's! Not common at all back then! Always impressive. I just wish they lived longer.


----------



## TAH

It is really sad how long they live, I think a lot has to do with the way there fed. 

I think so also! I am very excited! 

I will share lots of pics when we get them.


----------



## Latestarter

My son owns one. very sweet (and needy) house dog. Very overweight and a gluttonous piggie and I've given them hell for it and told them to put her on a diet or they may well lose her before her tenth birthday.


----------



## babsbag

I remember seeing my first one in the late 90's. Her name was Heidi and she was camping with her owners. I fell in love with her. A few years later I almost bought one but was living in the city and didn't need a big dog.


----------



## Simpleterrier

BMD great dogs sis and brother-in-law have one on the dairy farm. Another great breed for a farm dog is an Airedale. My Airedale is great want to protect the chickens just lock him in the coup. We have coyotes and foxes only lost two chickens and not a single goat. Curly is for most into protecting my kids. Have a chicken that will squawk when u get to close scared my son once for two weeks curly would find that chicken and hold it down if it got to close to my son wouldn't kill it just hold it down. Did chores for the people next door and they had a red healer and she would bite you take the Airedale with u and he would catch her and hold her down till u told him to let her up took about two days of that before she stayed by the house. I always find dead coons and ghogs. Steers get to close to my wife he's right there between them. He's getting old now gonna start looking for a pup did have a great Dane that was a year old but she died around Xmas cause she ate something to big to pass and the vet said she probably wouldn't make it threw the operation. But she was slot like the airedale. No people would have came up to my kids with them both or even one with them.


----------



## NH homesteader

sounds like a good choice! I love this breed. I met a 2 year old BMD that could hardly walk because it's hips were so bad. Made me so sad.... I'm glad you are aware of the health issues and are finding a good breeder. Super important with this breed.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

I think it's a great choice! I love the BMD!

I'm glad you realized that the SM wasn't good for your situation. That is one of the reasons I encouraged y'all wait before putting and deposits, etc. down. 

Hoping you find a good breeder! I hear that some breeders are really trying to breed for longevity now, hoping you can find someone up there that does.


----------



## TAH

I am looking at "bearmountainbernese". They have had some of there Bernese live to be 14 so not bad, they also are very careful to not breed any dogs that have any hip or health issues. 

I am glad to have other people think we are making the right decision. I am very grateful to have such a great group of people!


----------



## Baymule

@TAH you will have to start another thread for the BMD. Then we get to follow your journey with this wonderful breed of dog.


----------



## TAH

I will definitely start the other thread!

I would like to keep this thread as SM's so others can come here to talk about them so I will move over to a new thread where we can talk about the breed.


----------



## Simpleterrier

@BrendaMNgri  do u really keep all those dogs on five acres. Or is that just one pasture size that they are in. To me that seems like a lot of dogs to just protect 5 acres. Unless u have super coyotes out there.


----------



## Southern by choice

BrendaMNgri said:


> Simpleterrier I am a licensed and permitted kennel and have been raising LGDs since 2009.  The term "kennel" is what the county uses but my dogs have free range on the ranch and are not locked up in what you usually think of as kennels, so the term is a bit misleading.  I keep the number of dogs I have because I produce 1-3 litters a year, not due to predator issues or protective needs.  Many of my dogs are now older retirees.  We do have predators out here in droves - feral dog packs, coyote packs, lion, suspected Coywolves, wolves to the north of us and birds of prey.  My stock is never bothered but my neighbors without LGDs are hit often and frequently lose livestock.  My dogs do great on my acreage although if I had my way I'd be farther out from people with much more land, but that's not possible for me at this time.  On the topic of breed suitability because the SM is not as hyper or prone to go distances from stock as say a Kangal, they can stay content on this amount of land, and do great here.  My kangals were not content.  Before I re-fenced my Pyrenees dug out and escaped.  The SM are less prone to wander and like to stay close to stock not perimeter patrolling miles off like some other breeds will be inclined to do.  They are slower, calmer dogs but pack a bigger punch than most.



What kind of livestock do you keep?


----------



## Simpleterrier

I was just trying to figure it out. I have more land and have killed foxes and coyotes 100 yrds from my barn and haven't felt the need to invest in a LgD let alone two or more. So a sm is good on smaller property and u need a couple of them?


----------



## Southern by choice

Simpleterrier said:


> I was just trying to figure it out. I have more land and have killed foxes and coyotes 100 yrds from my barn and haven't felt the need to invest in a LgD let alone two or more. So a sm is good on smaller property and u need a couple of them?



That is great! If that works then stick with it!  Not everyone needs a LGD that is for sure!
In our region even though coyotes generally are loners, they will come in small packs when necessary. 
Horses foaling while the coyotes kill the foal while being born. Cows calving- same thing... For most of us that have very active wildlife, the dogs allow us to maintain the wildlife which is necessary. It also allows us to not have to worry or be present at all times  when a threat does come in. I have heavily wooded property that I cannot even see through, I couldn't get a shot off anyway- not in the dark, not through the woods. My neighbors have had several dogs carried off their porch by coyotes! At least for us the goal really isn't to kill every fox or coyote or bobcat.. those animals are very important to the ways of nature. Dogs allow them(predators) to choose wisely, and if the predators don't choose wisely they will lose their life. I rather my dogs deter than me have to shoot.
I can't imagine living in some areas where the packs are monstrous or with mountain lions.


----------



## Southern by choice

BrendaMNgri said:


> In Spain the SM is used quite a bit to guard cattle and are highly regarded for their ability in that sense.


I have always felt they were best as a cattle guardian.   The SM  is not my area of expertise though.


----------



## Simpleterrier

@Southern by choice @BrendaMNgri have u two personally lost livestock not poultry to predators have u witnessed or come to a conclusion that your lgd have engaged predators. By engage I mean charge or physical force


----------



## OneFineAcre

I gots 3 acres and a couple of Pygmy goats 
What you think I need ?


----------



## OneFineAcre

OneFineAcre said:


> I gots 3 acres and a couple of Pygmy goats
> What you think I need ?



Now OFA
I thought you said that you had learned to keep scrolling


----------



## Baymule




----------



## frustratedearthmother

Well, I'm not Brenda or Southern, so pardon me for buttin' in....BUT, I have lost goats - Pygmy goats, thank ya very much! (lol @OneFineAcre ) to a bobcat.  One young goat disappeared completely, one goat came up with her throat ripped and claw marks on her belly, and another one was killed and partially consumed way too close to my house.  

Enter LGD's...   Have they physically 'engaged' with said bobcat?  Nope (at least not that I know of) But, guess what?  I haven't lost a goat to a predator in the six years since that happened.

And, I don't have to sit out by the barn with a gun...I get to crawl in my warm comfy bed and let the dogs do what they were bred to do.


----------



## babsbag

I have good fences so a coyote would have to work to get to my goats but this summer the fence I share with my neighbor had a rotten post and I didn't notice and I lost a lot of chickens to a coyote before I found and fixed the problem. That could have been my goat pen instead of my chicken yard. I have 4 LGDs with my goats and they used to be with my chickens too, but I had to move the chickens out of the goat pasture due to building a dairy.

Also, the dogs make ME feel safe. I am home by myself all week so the dogs guard my goats and me when I need to be outside at night.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

Same for me @babsbag  I go outside in the morning before daylight and many, many times I'm out after dark - in kidding season I'm out waaaaaaaaay after dark.  Knowing the dogs are right there is a huge comfort.

I've never had a dog or coyote breach my fence unless the gate was open. (except my own dog, Cowboy).  But, a cat is another story.  A cat can go over without ever even slowing down.  And, this cat was big enough to carry off a young buckling.

The dogs don't have to physically engage a predator to keep it away.  Their presence alone is a huge deterrent.


----------



## OneFineAcre

Simpleterrier said:


> @Southern by choice @BrendaMNgri have u two personally lost livestock not poultry to predators have u witnessed or come to a conclusion that your lgd have engaged predators. By engage I mean charge or physical force



I live on a 5 acre property
I breed Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats

I have 30 goats
I have 4 Great Pyrennes that guard t


----------



## Southern by choice

I have been in canines for many years. I am well aware of what risk my property held. Because I do what I do I would not be so foolish to not prepare my property for livestock. Before we brought in our livestock coyotes, fox, coon and opossum were constant on the land as well as hawks. Having farmdog and highly trained GSD's were adequate to drive off predators away from the house but that would NOT suffice for our herds. Loss encountered prior to the dogs was limited to poultry and my neighbors dogs. BUT that was also prior to our goats. 20 ft from the fence on our path that leads to one of our fields had a beautiful deer being eaten by two coyotes! Love game cams! Below is the pic

Every farm around us that does NOT have LGD's lose livestock. Sadly the LGDonkeys are not adequate for the cattle farms.

I do not however believe every farm needs a LGD. 
I interview a lot of people and the majority need just a good farmdog. For those that need a LGD I will do my best to direct them.

The dogs are also excellent deterrents for human predators as well. Our dogs have stopped attempted livestock theft at 3 in the morning. Alerted us when a stranger was roaming our land late at night in search of his missing dog. They let us know when someone is where they shouldn't be.

Some people know the risk and refuse to do anything proactive, others will lose stock over and over until it is so bad they either do the smart thing or give up livestock.  
It really boils down to land, type farm, predator level and livestock- all those things play a part. Our 2-3 lb baby goats are easy pickins for any size predator. My Kikos, no they could be taken by coyotes. I cannot protect them when they are acres away in thick viney woods. 







On another note - I saw an Airedale the other day and my first words were AN AIREDALE!  I got so excited! It has been about 30 years since I have been around any Airedales! Lovely breed! Just LOVELY!


----------



## Goat Whisperer

frustratedearthmother said:


> The dogs don't have to physically engage a predator to keep it away. Their presence alone is a huge deterrent.


 I agree!


----------



## Southern by choice

Here are links to answer your other question...

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lgds-and-fencing.27203/

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/would-you-mess-with-this-dog-lol.30336/

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/the-value-of-a-lgd-callie-protects-her-herd.27160/

You see for many of us it is a bigger picture. My dogs have saved drowning goats, alerted us when goats were stuck and trapped, alerted us when goats were strangling and if you look at the bottom thread this case my gal Callie (she recently passed away) saved the life of her beloved goat Moses when a new goat came in and was in a holding area. This buck had never been around other bucks. The fence did cave and if not for Callie Moses would have been killed.


----------



## OneFineAcre

Southern by choice said:


> I have been in canines for many years. I am well aware of what risk my property held. Because I do what I do I would not be so foolish to not prepare my property for livestock. Before we brought in our livestock coyotes, fox, coon and opossum were constant on the land as well as hawks. Having farmdog and highly trained GSD's were adequate to drive off predators away from the house but that would NOT suffice for our herds. Loss encountered prior to the dogs was limited to poultry and my neighbors dogs. BUT that was also prior to our goats. 20 ft from the fence on our path that leads to one of our fields had a beautiful deer being eaten by two coyotes! Love game cams! Below is the pic
> 
> Every farm around us that does NOT have LGD's lose livestock. Sadly the LGDonkeys are not adequate for the cattle farms.
> 
> I do not however believe every farm needs a LGD.
> I interview a lot of people and the majority need just a good farmdog. For those that need a LGD I will do my best to direct them.
> 
> The dogs are also excellent deterrents for human predators as well. Our dogs have stopped attempted livestock theft at 3 in the morning. Alerted us when a stranger was roaming our land late at night in search of his missing dog. They let us know when someone is where they shouldn't be.
> 
> Some people know the risk and refuse to do anything proactive, others will lose stock over and over until it is so bad they either do the smart thing or give up livestock.
> It really boils down to land, type farm, predator level and livestock- all those things play a part. Our 2-3 lb baby goats are easy pickins for any size predator. My Kikos, no they could be taken by coyotes. I cannot protect them when they are acres away in thick viney woods.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On another note - I saw an Airedale the other day and my first words were AN AIREDALE!  I got so excited! It has been about 30 years since I have been around any Airedales! Lovely breed! Just LOVELY!




I've been in Canines for 30 years too


----------



## babsbag

Personally I have never been in a Canine.


----------



## Latestarter

So glad someone else did what I stopped myself from doing...  I was going to add that I've been using my canines for the better part of 1/2 a century


----------



## babsbag




----------



## Southern by choice

Alright you all ... so now I have to make sure all my sentences are grammatically correct I guess... not happening!


----------



## Latestarter




----------



## Simpleterrier

I am just thinking it all out. I can't say I've been in dogs for 30 yrs I'm not 30 yet. But have been around dogs of different breeds and types for a long time. I coon hunted. Slot of guys would take u to the woods to sell a dog and say hear that it's running a coon how much u gonna give me for a dog like this. So just cause a dog barks or puts on a show doesn't mean it is doing anything at all. If u don't see what it is barking at. I find it interesting that when people bring up farm dogs the conversation always turns to lgd. But I would say most here need farm dogs not lgd. There are breeds out there that are farm dogs. Look at the cur breeds America's home made dogs. Created and breed here to be farm dogs.  But I keep it simple I don't have more animals livestock or dogs then I can train and handle. I try to think this out first. I think some people just like to have the most even if it isn't necessary.so do your own research and look out side the box at non lgd to handle your property.


----------



## Southern by choice

Simpleterrier said:


> I am just thinking it all out. I can't say I've been in dogs for 30 yrs I'm not 30 yet. But have been around dogs of different breeds and types for a long time. I coon hunted. Slot of guys would take u to the woods to sell a dog and say hear that it's running a coon how much u gonna give me for a dog like this. So just cause a dog barks or puts on a show doesn't mean it is doing anything at all. If u don't see what it is barking at. I find it interesting that when people bring up farm dogs the conversation always turns to lgd. But I would say most here need farm dogs not lgd. There are breeds out there that are farm dogs. Look at the cur breeds America's home made dogs. Created and breed here to be farm dogs.  But I keep it simple I don't have more animals livestock or dogs then I can train and handle. I try to think this out first. I think some people just like to have the most even if it isn't necessary.so do your own research and look out side the box at non lgd to handle your property.



A good breeder will not just sell a dog to someone because they want one. A good breeder will evaluate their dogs and evaluate for placement.
I will say some environments call for farmdogs and that is sufficient however there is the flipside.
Far to many believe there farmdogs or NON Lgd type dogs can do what a LGD can do and they cannot. 
Actually,_ "just cause a dog barks or puts on a show doesn't mean it is doing anything at all. If u don't see what it is barking at"   _this statement is not true_. _Dogs can see and hear far better then we can and that barking is a strong deterrent. That is first defense and a warning. 
Dogs were bred for specific purposes. I would not expect my Livestock Guardian dogs to be able to coon hunt, fox hunt, retrieve... they were not bred for that purpose. I would never expect a lab, hound, terrier to do what my guardians do either. 

What type of livestock do you have?


----------



## NH homesteader

I am so so sorry about your dogsI hope you find answers and the rest of your dogs are safe and healthy. I don't have LGD's but I know the heartache of losing pet dogs.


----------



## frustratedearthmother

So very sorry for your loss.


----------



## Hens and Roos

so sorry for your loss @BrendaMNgri , hope you find answers.


----------



## Green Acres Farm

@BrendaMNgri, I am so sorry. I can't even imagine losing 2 at once.


----------



## samssimonsays

So sorry for your losses Brenda. Big hugs. I really hope they are able to figure out what is wrong and if heaven forbid it was foul play those responsible are brought to justice. 

I agree that dogs mourn. Our Collie became suicidal after loosing her Great Pyrenees "big brother". Aside from our mourning, we had to be cautious with hers as well. That forced us to jump into another puppy to help her or send her back to the breeder for some "therapy" as she was shutting down quickly. With the latest loss she has done much better but she is older and we had a third dog as well. We are concerned what will happen to the collie if we lose the pup as well but we will have to face that if it happens. Our hearts are not ready for another dog at this point.


----------



## Southern by choice

This post has been edited. It no longer retains it's integrity and the post directly addressed questions that are no longer posted making this irrelevant.


----------



## Goat Whisperer

This post has been edited by GW. It no longer retains it's integrity and the post directly addressed questions that are no longer posted making this irrelevant.


----------



## Latestarter

@BrendaMNgri   I'm so sorry to hear that you've lost TWO dogs under questionable circumstances. What a gut punch...  I truly hope that poisoning isn't the cause, but there are some really bad people out there nowadays. Losing more than one at once unexpectedly sure does lead to suspicion. I hope you're able to determine the cause and if criminal, the killer is found and brought to justice.


----------



## TAH




----------



## Baymule

@BrendaMNgri I am so sorry about the loss of two of your dogs. It is hard to convey tone or feelings on an open forum, but my heart mourns for you and your pack. I sincerely hope you find out what happened. Big hugs.


----------

