# Straw or shavings?!



## Dogma (Dec 5, 2015)

Hello friends, 
I want to keep my new girls warm and clean this winter!! What is best for barn floor?! Straw or shavings or both? Should I give them blankets or beds or will they just chew on them? I want the best place for them. Right now they have shavings. Thank you for your help!!!


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## Goat Whisperer (Dec 5, 2015)

I like putting straw over the shavings. 

You don't need to give them blankets or beds  Just make sure they have hay available.


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## Hens and Roos (Dec 5, 2015)

we use straw and they also add hay to the bedding from what falls from them eating.


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## Dogma (Dec 5, 2015)




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## OneFineAcre (Dec 5, 2015)

Either is fine
Shavings with some straw or wasted hay is better
I have plenty of free pine straw and I use that too


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 5, 2015)

Hens and Roos said:


> we use straw and they also add hay to the bedding from what falls from them eating.


X2


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## Southern by choice (Dec 5, 2015)

Dogma said:


> View attachment 12780



That is SWEET!


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## Dogma (Dec 5, 2015)




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## Dogma (Dec 5, 2015)

Dogma said:


> View attachment 12781


The girls were helping me remove dirty shavings and replace with clean ones today.  I will buy some straw tomorrow.  And add to shavings.  I'm loving this goat mom life!!!


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## goatgurl (Dec 5, 2015)

don't you love all the help you get when you're working in the barn.  i use straw and old hay for bedding.  everybody snuggles down when its cold and wet.  it its cold and dry they are just as likely to be outside nibbling on something.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 5, 2015)

If your concrete is not sealed it is going to begin stinking soon.
Ask me how I know... 
The urine penetrates down in and wow 
If you seal it then the bedding on top will absorb the urine.
Then when you remove bedding it is as easy as bleach water  to mop the surface.
Unsealed you will need to soak bleach water and wet vac it up.. 

We moved our girls out after a season in the concrete floor building... way more work than it was worth. The bedding cost, because we went through so much more became very expensive.
The floor was cold in the winter which even with bedding and straw (or spent hay) it seemed to keep the building colder.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 5, 2015)

Thanks for asking this question Dogma! I was thinking about getting shavings for bedding for my goats, but maybe I'll get some straw to go along with it! Thanks to all who answered this question too!


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## Latestarter (Dec 5, 2015)

Most folks will tell you; straw/hay doesn't really absorb moisture all that well, but does act as a good insulator for them to lay in and keep warm when it's cold. Bales of straw (or hay) can also be stacked to make wind breaks. You'll also discover (and I've experienced) that straw takes a long time to compost down since it has a waxy coating... Straw is also not best if you are doing deep litter as the mud/poop and straw packs down and becomes cob... folks build "brick" houses out of cob... You may have seen it on the national geographic channel... Anyway... just throwing that out there... 

Sawdust will actually absorb better than wood chips, and compost down faster. You could maybe throw down some kitty litter in the mix also... help absorb the urine and keep the smell down? Anyone ever try that? Should work...

"...most of them fall into three distinct categories: clay-based, silica-based, and biodegradable. The best cat litter for your cat will depend on your expectations."  http://www.petmd.com/cat/care/evr_ct_what_is_in_cat_litter


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## goatgurl (Dec 5, 2015)

southern brought up something i didn't think to mention.  my floor is dirt under all that straw and hay so i don't have that build up of urine since it leaches down into the soil.  and i use the deep litter method, only clean the barn out once every two or three years and that is in the spring so i have another layer before winter.  i throw a little corn in the hay ever once in a while so the hens keep the top layer fluffed up. the composting litter keeps the barn floor warmer for the goats in the winter.


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## Dogma (Dec 5, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> If your concrete is not sealed it is going to begin stinking soon.
> Ask me how I know...
> The urine penetrates down in and wow
> If you seal it then the bedding on top will absorb the urine.
> ...


are 

Thanks. We will look to relocate them...or seal that floor. What type if flooring works best... We can build whatever they need...


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## Dogma (Dec 5, 2015)

goatgurl said:


> southern brought up something i didn't think to mention.  my floor is dirt under all that straw and hay so i don't have that build up of urine since it leaches down into the soil.  and i use the deep litter method, only clean the barn out once every two or three years and that is in the spring so i have another layer before winter.  i throw a little corn in the hay ever once in a while so the hens keep the top layer fluffed up. the composting litter keeps the barn floor warmer for the goats in the winter.


Ho does this deep litter method work?! I've heard it mentioned a few times.  Thanks.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 5, 2015)

Everyone does what works for them.
We have done EVERY kind of floor. LOL
We did one season (over winter) of deep litter as we had no choice- RAINS actually 9 months of rain...  we got it partially cleaned but literally not a full out clean till the rains ended..

Personally I DETEST deep litter method.
Basically you have poop and pee mixed in decomposing and you just keep throwing more on top. That is why people don't clean it out for 1-3 years... it is awful once you finally due.
You also have to make sure the ceiling is VERY high- as that 7 ft clearance will shrink to 6 ft then 5 ft easily in deep litter.
If you don't have a tractor to clean it out you can forget it.
One it is HEAVY. TWO the stench is unbearable as you get deeper and deeper. Depending on the size it takes forever! 

In my experience I see alot more respiratory issues & mite issues in deep litter. I do farm management consults so it is more of what I see on others farms. I also suspect farms with a good deal of mastitis issues is from the deep litter method.

I use a method that we have implemented this year after our friend came out and we had visited some dairies...

Its base is dirt, we picked a higher ground to put our newer temporary barn on. Then we have 6 inches of packed rockdust over top. The rockdust crushes down and looks like dirt but is actually fine rock (here it isn't actually called rock dust it is Chapel Hill Grit- local for our quarries) several people here changed over to it and so far all the friends we have local that have goats have done the same thing... once packed it is easy to sweep or rake the berries off the top... urine goes straight down through and no odor.  For winter we do throw cheap hay (not straw) down for them to bed into. We replace that every few days... we don't cover the whole floor. Because it floods so much here we use it in lots of other areas where we need more drainage.

Barns stays immaculately clean.  The downside for us in NC is rainy season! The spent hay goes on the ground and if we can't get to the barn for clean out it gets gunky.. We normally do not feed hay in the barn. We have a hay feeder outside, they are given a certain amount each day and the rest of the day they forage... winter we give more hay in the evening.

This works for us.
I have some pics if you want to see.

Trying different things and changing what you do over time is* very normal *by the way.  When we had 2-3 goats  things were very different... as our herd grew and grew and then needing kidding stalls, kid paddocks etc... much has changed. Add milkroom and treatment areas ... well it is ever changing.

*Some things work for some people that don't work for others.
There really isn't a "one-way" fits all.*

Shoot- I am doing drawings of my new barn- you know my dream barn for when we move... who knows if it will ever get off a page of paper. Like I said my... _dream_ barn


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## goatgurl (Dec 5, 2015)

basically what i can tell you is that the deep litter method works very well for me.  i used it when i lived in wva where it is a lot colder than here in arklahoma and i still use it here.  i have never had problems with mastitis or respiratory issues.  the barn is in an area that sheds water instead of holding it and I'm sure that helps a lot.  there are pros and cons to every type of floor that you have so you will have to work out which will work for you.  hope that helps.


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## babsbag (Dec 5, 2015)

I use the deep litter right now but we have a tractor and we clean it out every year in the spring. I just keep adding more and more straw and the goats jump trample it down, they do fine. The ground underneath is dirt and we aren't in a barn, just a big big 2 sided lean-to so there is a lot of ventilation which is critical if you are going to do the deep litter.

In the new barn I am going to try the rock dust. (I am actually the friend that visited the dairies in NC with Southern). But in some ways the deep litter may be less time consuming. But as Southern said, you have to have a tractor and it does smell during cleanout, but only for a day of so and then it dries out.

I like the idea of tossing the corn in it so the chickens will keep if fluffed. I am going to try that.


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 5, 2015)

I let it build up im the winter 
You get new dry hay on top and the decomposing hay and waste underneath generates heat
You do have a big cleanup on the spring but I don't have the time to clean weekly in the winter
My barn has good ventilation so I've never had any respitory issues


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## Southern by choice (Dec 5, 2015)

OneFineAcre said:


> I let it build up im the winter
> You get new dry hay on top and the decomposing hay and waste underneath generates heat
> You do have a big cleanup on the spring but I don't have the time to clean weekly in the winter
> My barn has good ventilation so I've never had any respitory issues



I know you put the grit in this year... are you doing deep litter over it?


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 6, 2015)

Southern by choice said:


> I know you put the grit in this year... are you doing deep litter over it?


About half of my barn has no bedding the main walkway 
The stalls I just cleaned last week and put fresh bedding
The very back doesn't have any rock 
The feeder is back there
I haven't cleaned it in a while


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## MamaBlu (Dec 6, 2015)

I see that someone mentioned the heat from the deep litter....

I had been doing this in our barns, especially in my chicken pens to keep the chickens warmer in the winter.

Well this year in Feb we had a double barn fire, we had a very large barn and then a smaller open air barn with a closed building built into it that we used as a milking/treatment room and quarantine bay.

It was horrible they say it must have started in the big barn and because of wind it spread to the second one. They were both engulfed very quickly, I had gone out to check on my daughters calf at around 10pm and at 11pm my husband noticed flames outside I ran out but it was too late.

We lost 14 goats, 10 does that were confirmed pregnant and due in March, 2 large buck brothers that I had raised by bottle from birth that were my first goats I ever had, they were from a birth of 5 kids and only weighed 2 pounds each, they were not thought to live long but I nursed them and loved them and they were both almost 200 pound Oberhasli males.

We also lost my daughters calf, well she was not a little calf anymore lol we had raised her from birth around 70 lbs I think and she was 300 lbs.

It was the most devastating night of my life, and the hardest few weeks following as I tried to clean up and prayed over each animal that they had not suffered greatly.

Anyway sorry this got away from me, but I was told by arson investigations that they believed it was spontaneous hay combustion. Basically they said the deep litter got too hot and caught the bedding on fire.

Now our barns did not have electricity, so no heat sources from lamps or wires were even a part of it. 

Personally I think it was arson I had been doing deep litter for years, cleaning out once a year, but we were renting our farm and the day after the fire my landlord said he didn't want to renew our lease which was up 2 months later.

He's a bad guy I really wouldn't put it past him to kill all my animals thinking it would be easier for us to find a new place.

But anyway, I know where we are now is much better and we are much happier here.

I still wonder though if the deep litter heat really could have started that fire? There were no chemicals or gas or anything like that in there either.


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 6, 2015)

MamaBlu said:


> I see that someone mentioned the heat from the deep litter....
> 
> I had been doing this in our barns, especially in my chicken pens to keep the chickens warmer in the winter.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry that happened to you!! That must have been awful to lose all those animals!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 6, 2015)

Just horrible @MamaBlu 
I know this has had to leave such an incredible wound to the heart, I am so sorry.

Arson investigators are really amazing at what they do, I would think if it was arson they would know. Spontaneous combustion happens more often than people realize. Often we hear about it happening with barns filled with hay.  We keep our compost piles in the middle of the fields now... we never had a fire but one of our compost piles did get VERY hot one time and it was close to the trees... we sifted, watered and spread it... After that we decided a "new" location would be better.


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## sadieml (Dec 6, 2015)

@MamaBlu my heart aches for you and so much loss.  So glad you are able to be happy where you are and you sound as though you're healing.  I sincerely pray that your former landlord is not to blame in any way, so much loss of life!  @Southern by choice is definitely right about arson investigators, one of my dearest friends' father was one for years.  They left no stone unturned to be certain about possible arson.

I hadn't thought about the heat issue with the compost pile.  I think we will relocate ours before it grows.

I'm really glad for this thread, because I've been thinking of re-flooring our goat shed since the recent floods, and this gives me much food for thought.  So, like @BlessedWithGoats said, thanks for asking this one, @Dogma.


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## babsbag (Dec 7, 2015)

What a horrible feeling of helplessness. I watched my coop burn once and there were 50 chickens in it, I was devastated... and to loose my goats...I can't even imagine.   I agree with the others though that the arson investigators are good and leave no stone unturned. My DH is a Fire Marshal and when my coop burned he could tell where the fire started by looking at the burn patterns on the wall and the way a light bulb stretched as it melted. It is amazing what the remains can tell you. Ours was an electrical fire that was most likely rodent related. My new coop has electrical in conduit and it is not at floor level.

I have had some hay get pretty hot when a bale gets wet and left baled. I too use the deep litter method and it is hot under there. I have had it let off steam when I dig it out. Mine is not in a barn though, it is just a BIG BIG lean too so I don't worry about it.


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## Latestarter (Dec 7, 2015)

I do deep litter in my chicken coop (plywood floor raised ~20-24" above ground level) and run. If too dry it is very dusty. If too wet it can smell. Gotta keep a happy medium. Mix green stuff; grass clippings, pulled weeds, kitchen scraps, etc w/brown stuff; bark, sticks, wood chips, dead leaves, etc. Throw in some good compost or garden dirt to give it a start, and then just let the animals move it around. In a barn with large animals, I wouldn't have a raised floor if I could avoid it...


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## Bossroo (Dec 7, 2015)

YUP ...  deep litter , exposed electrical wires where rodents can chew on them, hay stored in barns with not enough air movement between bales or piles of loose hay are some of the major causes of spontanious cumbustion for barn fires.   Just  2weeks ago a barn near us with 500 tons of hay whent up in flames and smoldered for  days.  Last spring, a neighor's hen house  burned to the ground when the deep litter burst into flames roasting a dozen hens.


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## frustratedearthmother (Dec 7, 2015)

I hate rodents....  ugh!


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 7, 2015)

I don't think the deep litter would spontaneously combust.


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## babsbag (Dec 7, 2015)

OFA, I don't know ... I have seen mine steam when I have to clean out this one area to open a gate. Mine is in a very very open type of structure so I don't worry about it but if the barn was one of those nice ones with 4 walls and a roof I am not convinced. However my DH, the Fire Marshal, agrees with you; he says that the deep liter would most likely not combust but hay bales certainly do.


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## Latestarter (Dec 7, 2015)

Deep litter will steam due to moisture content and (slow) decomposition. It will create heat/warmth. In a good compost pile, the internal heat can (and should) be in the 160-200+ degree range, but that's still not normally enough to start a fire... I don't keep my DL as wet as a compost pile so it doesn't create as much heat. It's warm, but not really "composting" like a dedicated compost pile. 

I mean the steam is a direct relation to the temp difference between the outside air and the moisture laden air from the deep litter as well as the ambient air humidity. You can get steam at 70 degrees if the compost is running at 120+. If the outside temp is 32 degrees, you'll get steam when the compost is in the 50 degree range.

Now, having electrical wires in/near the DL or in high dust environments... that's a whole nuther story... the dust can cause a short or rodents eating through the protective coatings on the wires... Even your animals can inadvertently cause problems accidentally stepping/pawing the wires, or rubbing against them, etc.


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## sadieml (Dec 7, 2015)

@Latestarter , I was reading some interesting stuff on spontaneous combustion of hay and/or straw.  There are also some interesting links within these articles/posts.  Sounds like a big gamble the way everyone talks, but it's interesting anyway.  If you're interested, here are the links:   http://articles.extension.org/pages/66577/preventing-fires-in-baled-hay-and-straw
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?14917-What-temp-does-straw-alight-itself

Like I said, there are also links within the articles.  Interesting stuff...


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## Latestarter (Dec 7, 2015)

Thanks! Yeah, moisture and tightly stacked bales is a strict no-no! I don't use hay or much straw in my DL... a little straw from the nest boxes, but that's it. And with compost, you're turning it regularly (or supposed to) to help keep the process even and moving/going. My litter never comes close to ignition temps... And I keep it dry enough that I rarely ever even get steam off it... Of course that does mean more dust, which creates its own set of issues. Always trade offs huh?


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## OneFineAcre (Dec 7, 2015)

I would not want hay baled with over 20% moisture content for more reasons that the risk of spontaneous combustion.
There might be a risk of fire, but I would about guarantee you it would be moldy


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## MamaBlu (Dec 8, 2015)

Thank you for the thoughts for sure, it's been hard I brought some ashes with us and we buried them here so that when the animals want to come down from heaven to visit they know where we are It really helped my 9yo daughter to think of this although she still won't talk about the fire much.

Unfortunately for the arson investigator it snowed for a few days starting the day after it happened so it made it very hard to investigate.

I had found a melted glass bottle in the ashes later and he told me usually that is a sign of an accelerant like fuel or chemicals.

We actually didn't have anything stored in the barn because we had just cleaned it a few months before that. The only hay in it was 1 square bale the cow was eating on.

I did have a compost pile of cow manure and hay that I had started in the middle of the barn, but it was far away from anything else.

I try not to dwell on the specifics, I don't like to have hate in my heart, it's hard to think that this landlord would have gone that far but at the same time his reactions afterward and during the fire were very strange indeed.

He came and asked me 3 days later was I going to pay to dispose of the animal carcasses because he didn't want them buried on the property and didn't want to pay for cleaning up dead charred animals.

Honestly I don't think he even has a heart. He asked me this in front of my daughter.

The other really bad thing about it all was it was the day after Valentine's Day so now every year we will be sad on Valentine's Day .

Our landlord also took us to court and sued and won for damages from the fire, 15,000.00 he knows we don't have that kind of money at all, he waited 30 days and filed for wage garnishment. Now he has taken my kids Christmas money, doesn't seem fair.

It's good we are a Christian family and as long as we are together and healthy I pray they will try to understand and not be mad or too sad


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2015)

What a richard head... Sure will/would be nice to see what karma has in store for his sorry butt.


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## sadieml (Dec 8, 2015)

@Latestarter   People who don't believe in karma don't read the Good Book.  In there it's called "sowing and reaping" and God built it in to the foundations of the earth.  Oh, yes, sowing and reaping, karma or "what goes around, comes around"...any way you put it, it is VERY REAL.  AND let's not forget that when you sow a kernel of corn you don't reap a kernel, or an ear, but a whole great big corn stalk!  I would not want to the harvest the must be awaiting this man.  (I still pray that even this cold-hearted so-and-so couldn't have been responsible for the fire.)

ps - richard, indeed...


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## Ericka (Dec 8, 2015)

I was totally going to do a compost pile in the woods... let the wild animals mix it for me LOL perhaps I should be re-thinking that plan! I don't want our woods to catch fire. Thank you Mamablu for sharing your story. I am sorry for the loss of your little ones.


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2015)

@Ericka Nature already does compost piles in the woods! And they don't spontaneously combust! Part of the reason the forest floor is normally so rich in nutrients (as long as sunlight can be added to the mix). Everything that lives in the woods eventually dies in the woods and ends up on the forest floor where it rots and goes back to dust... Even old cars, bottles, trash, you name it, that people have thrown in  the woods will eventually disintegrate. Just a matter of how much time is required for it to happen. I wouldn't add flammable items though, like oil soaked rags, gasoline, etc.


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## Ericka (Dec 8, 2015)

Gah! That's so true! Back to the original plan. Thank goodness, trying to convince the hubs of my new plan to put poop in the middle of lawn wasn't going to be easy!


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2015)

the woods and a compost *pile* are not the same... in the woods there is a relatively even layer... you don't see an 8 ft or 5 or 6 ft mound- we have lots of woods-  
the key to breakdown of a manure/compost pile is to turn it...
you do get some great "product" though 

The  smoldering of ours by the woods is what caused us to water, and spread... and we no longer compost there... open field only now.


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## Ericka (Dec 8, 2015)

Found this on pinterest. A sand bottom!  Assumed there would be dirt under that and using a rake to collect the berries this could be nice? Maybe the sand is really that rock stuff??


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2015)

True enough Southern... DON'T make a 8' or even 6' deep pile of compost... spread it around  evenly even... Also, don't "pack it down" leave it loose and airy.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2015)

Wait til you get livestock... you'd be surprised at how fast you will get a 4-6 ft mound! We do pile ours high and broad... now our neighbor brings his tractor and either turns it or he takes it away to his place... he has "bays" that he moves everything from bay to bay.

We use to have 4x4x4 bays and hand move them... those bays got full too fast and still so hard to move.

I still think S. C. is rare but is still something to be aware of.

When we first moved here the people before us had a burn fire- ONE gust of wind and the ground caught and the fire went straight to the trees. ... we had noticed the treeline was black and charred and it was a big area... then we heard the story about it. They managed to put it out before it hit the neighbors LOG cabin!

I am still amazed that the FD got it out.  I am kinda fanatical about fire safety.


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## Southern by choice (Dec 8, 2015)

Ericka said:


> Found this on pinterest. A sand bottom!  Assumed there would be dirt under that and using a rake to collect the berries this could be nice? Maybe the sand is really that rock stuff??



Rock dust packs down. The berries will get lost in the  sand and not easy to clean up. That may have been the first layer... some do rock/sand then dirt then the grit. Makes for good drainage.


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## Latestarter (Dec 8, 2015)

I need a tractor! OK... maybe "need" is a stretch... Want is good... with a bucket and forks... and a rear backhoe, and box blade and wheel harrow, and mower deck, and... Well, I bet you've got the idea  

Several of the properties I've found while looking are leaving their tractors and various attachments along with the sale. Wouldn't that be sweet!


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## Dogma (Dec 12, 2015)

Gave them shavings then straw on top... They refuse to lay in straw. Lol


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## Dogma (Dec 12, 2015)

Latestarter said:


> I need a tractor! OK... maybe "need" is a stretch... Want is good... with a bucket and forks... and a rear backhoe, and box blade and wheel harrow, and mower deck, and... Well, I bet you've got the idea
> 
> Several of the properties I've found while looking are leaving their tractors and various attachments along with the sale. Wouldn't that be sweet!


Ask Santa!!! Lol


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## BlessedWithGoats (Dec 12, 2015)

Dogma said:


> View attachment 12944 Gave them shavings then straw on top... They refuse to lay in straw. Lol


Aww!  Silly girls!
I just put down shavings with straw on top for my goats recently too!


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