# Doe not doing well!!!



## HartRice (May 26, 2010)

I am about ready to give up. I do not have any idea what could be wrong with my doe. She gave birth to a beautiful healthy doeling about 2 weeks ago. She has received her CD/T shot as well as been wormed. She now tonight has a temperature couldnt' get a real accurate reading but she feels very warm. She is still eating and drinking but poop is not normal. Baby is fine. Drinking well, pooping right. She is now getting food caught in her mouth like she is having a hard time chewing. She is on free choice goat mineral, oats and corn as well as alfalfa pellets twice daily all the hay and browse she can get. What am I doing wrong. I dont' want to lose her. She came from an auction a couple of years ago and was in pretty rough shape when my daughter's friend got her and didn't want her but she has been doing good since then. No runny nose but an occasional cough noted when I pulled the hay out of her mouth she started coughing. Should I give her some penicillin or what should I do. This is so depressing. Oh also have her separated from other goats just with her baby.


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## Roll farms (May 27, 2010)

A digital thermometer would take a very accurate rectal temp, which would go a long way to help knowing 'how bad' her fever is, if she has one.  
It is very warm here and I noticed my milkers felt pretty warm yesterday, then realized it was b/c I was coming from the A/C house to the hot, humid barn.

Does the goo she's passing post kidding look 'normal'...
pink / clear / amber (normal)
or brown,  yellowish / white and thick (could indicate uterine infection).

Any signs of mastitis?

When you say she's got food hung up in her mouth, does she possibly seem paralyzed on one side?  (Wondering if it could be Listeriosis...is she staggery / off balance and circling at all?)

Did you have a fecal ran to verify the deworming worked?  Post kidding a doe often will have a 'bloom' of barberpole worm that can really, really take them down...and not all dewormers work for barberpole.

There are just too many possible situations going on here to definitively say, "It IS this or that" but I'd wonder if there's a uterine infection, severe mastitis, worm issue, or possible illness like listeriosis or goat polio (Thiamine deficiency).

If you could narrow down some of the confusion (fecal ran?  Definite temp?  Discharge color?  etc.) it would really help narrow down the possibilities.

If she were mine, I'd get an accurate temp (over 102.5 indicates fever), give her a B vitamin injection, and if she has a fever, start her on Pen G ASAP....2x a day for 7-10 days.   Give her probios to help get her innards running well again....
I'd also either deworm again or have a fecal ran to see if it's needed.


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## HartRice (May 27, 2010)

No discharge, no signs of mastitis. I looked up listeriosis is this contagious. I have started her on penicillin yesterday but not the high doses it says to. Should we take the baby away. This has not been my year. I feel terrible for her. We don't feed silage, I havent changed her diet at all from what it was before. I have been giving more and more hay and it is not moldy as we have horses as well. I am just sick about this. No new goats to the property except her baby that she had here in the last couple of months and the other new baby is not anywhere near her. I will continue to give the penicillin by the dosing on the website I found in hopes that it helps and have to get some Thiamine and probios. I am hoping that fleet farm has the thiamine. the vets around here are not real helpful when it comes to goats.


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## SDGsoap&dairy (May 27, 2010)

I'm sure someone with more experience could comment on this but I'm thinking you don't want to under-dose the antibiotics if you're going to give them.


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## Roll farms (May 27, 2010)

If you can't get thiamine, the regular B vitamin, given heavily, will help as well.  They just pee out any 'extra'...I'd give her 10 cc 2-3x a day if that's all you can get.

If you've had the heat / rain we have, a flake of hay that fell on the ground could have gotten wet / hot / molded overnight and *bam* that's all it takes, if it IS even listeriosis.

It's not so much contagious as opportunistic.  The 2 times we've had a goat 'get' it, it was when they were sick from other things.  The weakened immune system lets it flare up....maybe a worm load a/o kidding has weakened her...again, IF that is what it is.

Hit her w/ the B and heavy Pen G doses, she should start to come around pretty quick if that is the problem.


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## HartRice (May 27, 2010)

Well I think that is what it is. Put a call out to the vets and they weren't much help like I said. Got the Vitamin b and gave her that. Giving high doses of penicillin. She is still drooling, she is not so bad at holding food on the one side of her mouth. She is drinking well. I am just wondering if I should pull the baby and try to bottle feed to reduce the stress on her. I feel terrible for her. She looks so miserable. I don't know what else to do for her. I also picked up some probiotics as well as some electrolyte drench for her. She is just the sweetest nubian. even as sick as she is she comes to greet you right away. Thanks so much for all the help on here. I have learned so much. It is greatly appreciated.


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## HartRice (May 27, 2010)

Oh and yes it has been very wet here and now that I look at feeder where we had her for part of day so baby could get more exercise the bottom is wet. Maybe that is what caused it. I feel just sick that I let this happen. I am keeping my fingers crossed that she pulls through. Thanks again for everything.


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## cmjust0 (May 27, 2010)

If it's listeriosis, do some research on using Dexamethasone in conjunction with your current treatment..  Dex apparently suppresses the production of interleukin 6, which is basically one of the immune system's inflammatory cytokines..  It appears as though while suppressing IL-6, it somehow also works to augment tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFa) and interferon gamma (IFNy)...which are basically non-self cell killers.  Cancer killers, virus killers, bacteria killers...splinter and stuck thorn killers...etc.

Ultimately, though, dex is pretty much universally considered to be an _immune system killer_, and it's highly recommended to accompany it with an antibiotic even in the absence of an actual infection in order to prevent an infection due to the weakened immune state..  

It all begs the question.....why would you ever want to kill the immune system in the middle of a serious infection?!?

Well...if it's the *inflammation* of the infection that does most of the damage -- which seems to be the case with listeriosis, as the neurological effects are basically a result of brain-stem inflammation -- then it kinda sorta might make a bit of sense.  

Maybe.

It's controversial, though, so far as I can tell.  I've had this very "what if" conversation in my head many times, as I've not *yet* encountered listeriosis....but I'm certain I will someday.  

So, would I give dex?  I honestly don't know..  Probably not right away, but I probably would if PenG alone wasn't making improvements on the goat..

I just wanted to throw it out there so you'd know some people use it for listeriosis, and so you could make your own decision..


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## HartRice (May 27, 2010)

Well I have given the Penicillin and the Vita B  Complex and she is now more vocal and more active. A little staggery but not as bad. Still drooling but not as bad. She is trying to eat her hay and grass but a lot is still getting stuck on the left side of her mouth. I took grain out but just a cup full for the baby. I still don't know if I should pull the baby from her. I dont' know that I could get the baby to drink from a bottle. I have her in a cooler area in my barn now as well. She isn't happy about it but she looks to be more comfortable. Thanks again.


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## Roll farms (May 27, 2010)

Both of my goats who had it, recovered fine, w/ out Dex.

Catching it fast / treating it fast, is a big part of full recovery.

I gave the Pen G every 4 hrs the 1st day or so, the site I found suggested doing that....but it's been a few years since we've had a case.

Liquid electrolytes are a good idea.

As far as pulling the kid, if she'd *just* kidded, I might suggest it, but at this point (IMHO) so long as she's improving, pulling her baby *might* just stress her more, and we want NO stress.  
She's already used to taking care of the kid, is my point, I don't think continuing to care for it will be a problem, again, _as long as she's improving.  _If however, she took a turn for the worse, then yeah...try and see if the kid will take a bottle.

Seriously, if she's not went completely down, and is still up / letting the kid nurse...I think you're doing real good w/ her. 


And do not feel guilty, it's not like you 'gave' it to her on purpose....it can happen to anyone.


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## HartRice (May 29, 2010)

Well today not doing so good. She is up and down and she is still not able to use her jaw. She can't drink so we are giving her fluids. which she takes readily. Shouldn't the antibiotic and vitamin 
B be working by now? It has been 3 days. I don't know what more to do. I dont' think that this is milk fever. Should I put her down? She is losing weight drastically.


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## ksalvagno (May 29, 2010)

Yes, the antibiotics and B Vitamin should be showing some improvement, even if it isn't much. Unfortunately this is probably a bad weekend to hope that the right people get on here and see the posts. You almost wonder if she had a stroke or something. Is is just her jaw that doesn't work or is she having problems on a particular side in general?

I don't have any advice for you since I haven't had this problem yet. You may have to make some tough decisions if she is getting worse.   No matter what, you did a good thing in taking in an auction animal and getting it back to health. Sounds like you have done all you can for her for the 2 years that you have had her.


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## HartRice (May 29, 2010)

Well I guess she is not drooling as much as she was and it is just her jaw. She is still trying to eat and is not able to. we have been giving her electrolytes and still the antibiotic and vitamin b. Gave her some bo se and some redcell. Hoping it helps. I dont know what more to do. Thanks for all the help on here.


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## Roll farms (May 29, 2010)

When our doe got it and couldn't eat, we crushed up alfalfa cubes into dust, then added a bit of Karo and oats, then added water  and electrolytes and made a 'slurry' and cut a large syringe so that it would go through it and drenched her w/ that, to keep some fiber going into her rumen so it wouldn't shut down.

Listeriosis is a nasty bug, it causes a fever that swells the brain, causing paralysis on one side, similar to a stroke...hence the drooling.  
Can she blink the eye on the side she is drooling on?
(Our doe couldn't, I thought she was 'blind' but she just couldn't blink)

It took several days before my doe got better, and the buck who got it later took a while to get better as well....it's not an 'instant improvement'-type problem.

Did you ever take her temp?

GOOD LUCK!!  It sounds like, w/out a definitive diagnosis, you're doing all the right things.


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## HartRice (May 31, 2010)

Called the vet again and finally got a call back. Crying teenage daughter seems to be the trick. He said our diagnosis sounds spot on but that tetracycline would be the best route so gave some of that. yes paralysis on the right side. trying to drench but I am so scared it is going to go into her lungs. No temp. Able to finally get it without much help. We will keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best. She is a wonderful goat and I don't want her to suffer. Again thanks for all the help on here. It is greatly appreciated.


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## Roll farms (May 31, 2010)

I hate to contradict your vet, but....f it is Listeriosis, everything I've ever read says HIGH doses of Pen G.   Never has Oxytet come up as a suggested treatment.

Oxytetracycline and Pen G counteract, so switching drugs mid-treatment is sort of like not giving anything at all...

From Fiasco Farms:
Do not give Oxytetracycline and Penicillin at the same time. When given together, the tetracycline causes a chemical reaction that stops the effectiveness of Penicillin. 

Some info I used to treat our goats:
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/listeriosis_gwmf.shtml

Another:

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html

Direct quote (And I don't often agree w/ S.G., but this article helped me save my doe...)

 Immediate treatment is critical. There is no time to waste with Listeriosis. Recovery is more difficult and time-consuming than Goat Polio. A goat can go blind and completely recover its eyesight and overall health if proper treatment is provided; such treatment can take days or even weeks, depending upon the severity of the illness and how quickly treatment was begun. 

Treatment involves administration of high doses of procaine penicillin (300,000 International Unit strength) every six hours on a 24-hour cycle up to and through 24 hours after the last symptom has disappeared to avoid relapse. Higher-than-normal dosage of procaine penicillin is needed to cross the blood brain barrier to put sufficient amounts of the antibiotic into the tissue of the goat's central nervous system. A chart of dosage by bodyweight accompanies this article. Very Important: Continue all treatment until 24 hours *after* the last symptom has disappeared to avoid a relapse. Give the procaine pencillin SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle so the goat doesn't become a pin cushion of holes from repeated injections during this intensive treatment. This author also uses Vitamin B 1 (Thiamine) along with the penicillin treatment. Thiamine is an appropriate addition to treatment of any sick goat.


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## HartRice (May 31, 2010)

Yep read that same article and that is what we were doing but no improvement and as I have said before vets around here are pretty worthless when it comes to goats. She passed away this morning and now baby won't eat a bottle she is eating and drinking water but she is only 3 weeks old and still needs milk. Thanks again for all the help. It was appreciated and I feel terrible. Going to bury her by the apple tree in the yard. Live and learn I guess. I really feel like a failed her though.


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## Henrietta23 (May 31, 2010)

I'm so sorry!


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## ksalvagno (May 31, 2010)

I'm so sorry. 

It sounds like you did all you could. Just remember that you did her a great thing in taking care of her when she needed someone most. She had a great life with you and was obviously very loved.


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## HartRice (May 31, 2010)

Yes she was and now we just need to make sure the rest of the goats dont' get this and that her baby makes it. She is doing ok for now. again thanks to all who posted. It really meant a lot. No more auction goats for me though. Can't take the heartbreak anymore.


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## Roll farms (May 31, 2010)

I'm awful sorry you lost her.


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