# What you didn't know -Share to help others



## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

Okay the idea of this thread is to share a condition, disease, ailment, something that happened to your animals that you wish you had known was possible or to watch for, or that you had been aware of the symptoms in time.  A greatr treatment  Maybe you were lucky in your animal lived or maybe you are like many of us, and you have a wall of tears for the animals that you lost because you just didn't know. Whether it's ammonium chloride for bucks and watching them pee once a week or being aware of anaphylactic reactions, ketosis, bloat, goat polio, a bad plant/hay issue, or whatever comes to mind will you share your stories?   Because we really can learn from one another, and maybe it will save an animal from joining the wall of tears.

Dedicated to Echo my loving boy to whom I say I am so sorry I didn't know.
And to Bliss a fantastic doeling, the best I had, that I lost for not trusting my gut.  If a treatment won't hurt them, but could possibly save them do it anyway  I listened to the more experienced who were not there . I was wrong, and I lost for sure by hesitating.


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

I learned the hard way that even if you're feeding up being with ammonium chloride and it you need to be aware of the fact that some bucks are more susceptible you really have to watch your phosphorus and calcium ratios with them and it's a good idea once a week to just make sure everybody is peeing normally because you can have multiple bucks in one pen and have one get blocked up and the others be fine.  You need to watch their intake and you need to watch that they have a steady stream, if they have trouble peeing are hunching up or being uncomfortable biting or kicking at their side.  you could be like me though and have one that showed no symptoms to the night he didn't come up to eat by the time I got him to the vet an hour later it was too late.

My other best piece of advice is trust your gut, if it's a treatment, vitamin, mineral, or medicine that isn't going to kill them you're better off trying then waiting in case you're wrong cuz you could be dead right.  If you were wrong though and it is a treatment that won't hurt them all you're out likely is the cost of the treatment.


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## rachels.haven (Mar 8, 2019)

Get the expensive, "nice" fencing and build bigger than you think you'll need or you'll be doing it all twice.


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

rachels.haven said:


> Get the expensive, "nice" fencing and build bigger than you think you'll need or you'll be doing it all twice.


Yeah, and get five foot fence for the buck pen or just do it with panels.


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## Carla D (Mar 8, 2019)

Great idea for a thread.

Don’t house goats in the barn if all you have is a gravel floor. I’m still trying to figure out what I can do to help my situation. There is way too much snow and cold to be building outside right now and has been for a couple of months now.


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## secuono (Mar 8, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> I learned the hard way that even if you're feeding up being with ammonium chloride and it you need to be aware of the fact that some blacks are more susceptible you really have to watch your phosphorus and calcium ratios with them and it's a good idea once a week to just make sure everybody is peeing normally because you can have multiple bucks in one pen and have one get blocked up and the others be fine.  I need to watch their intake and you need to watch that they have a steady stream if they don't have trouble peeing aren't hunching up or being uncomfortable biting or kicking at their side.  you could be like me though and have one that showed no symptoms to the night he didn't come up to eat by the time I got into the Vet it was too late.
> 
> My other best piece of advice is trust your gut, and if it's a treatment vitamin mineral medicine that isn't going to kill them you're better off trying then waiting in case you're wrong cuz you could be dead right.  If you were wrong though and it is a treatment that won't hurt them all you're out likely is the cost of the treatment.



Black coloring or buck??
If black, what species?


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

secuono said:


> Black coloring or buck??
> If black, what species?


Sorry voice typing errors I was doing more than one thing at once.  In my case, Nubian bucks.


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

Carla D said:


> Great idea for a thread.
> 
> Don’t house goats in the barn if all you have is a gravel floor. I’m still trying to figure out what I can do to help my situation. There is way too much snow and cold to be building outside right now and has been for a couple of months now.


What problem are you seeing specifically.


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 8, 2019)

Carla D said:


> Don’t house goats in the barn if all you have is a gravel floor.



Why is that?


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## Carla D (Mar 8, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> What problem are you seeing specifically.


I can’t get the gravel clean. The ammonia level is getting pretty tough to handle. A couple of goats are coughing. I’ve raked it multiple times, spread pounds of baking soda on the floor, tried lemon juice as well. The goats went crazy for both of those. They wanted to eat or drink it directly out of the container I was holding. I also spread a huge amount of vinegar on the floor. None of these made a dent in the ammonia issue for more than a few hours. We literally don’t have anywhere to put them right now to clean, level, and cement the floor. We can’t even put posts in the ground so we can have an area setup for them when some of the snow melts. We got them as brand new babies the last week of September. We thawed have until spring before they became 80-90# goofy beasts. They are so big now that three of them can jump over our Dutch door if the top is open.

      This goat isn’t even struggling to stand there. They take treats off of the shelf that is just outside the door and a little lower than the door as well.


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## Carla D (Mar 8, 2019)

OneFineAcre said:


> Why is that?


I can’t get all of the urine/ammonia cleaned out of there. The only thing that is preventing my goats from getting really sick is the fact that it’s so cold even our barn floor is frozen, except in the goat stall. That is a few degrees warmer than the rest of the barn.


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## Baymule (Mar 8, 2019)

On my second lambing, I had twin lambs get chilled and unresponsive. I didn't know to warm them up before tube feeding them. I warmed them up afterwards. They died. I received good advice here on BYH, and I acted upon it, but the lambs had been too cold too long, I didn't know to warm them up ASAP. I just didn't know. 

Then to compound the grief, their mother, my favorite ewe and big pet went down. Took her to the vet, she had Ruptured Pre-Pubic Tendon, everything was hanging down, her belly looked like a pot belly pig. She was struggling just to breathe. We had to put her down. I didn't know what it was and didn't recognize it before she lambed. Still couldn't have done anything about it, so I guess it was just as well. 

https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymules-lambs-2nd-lambing.34888/page-8


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## OneFineAcre (Mar 8, 2019)

Carla D said:


> I can’t get all of the urine/ammonia cleaned out of there. The only thing that is preventing my goats from getting really sick is the fact that it’s so cold even our barn floor is frozen, except in the goat stall. That is a few degrees warmer than the rest of the barn.



That's what I have.  Everyone I know has either fine gravel or just plain old dirt.  What kind of floor do you think would be better?

Edited to add"
What kind of ventilation do you have?


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

Carla D said:


> I can’t get the gravel clean. The ammonia level is getting pretty tough to handle. A couple of goats are coughing. I’ve raked it multiple times, spread pounds of baking soda on the floor, tried lemon juice as well. The goats went crazy for both of those. They wanted to eat or drink it directly out of the container I was holding. I also spread a huge amount of vinegar on the floor. None of these made a dent in the ammonia issue for more than a few hours. We literally don’t have anywhere to put them right now to clean, level, and cement the floor. We can’t even put posts in the ground so we can have an area setup for them when some of the snow melts. We got them as brand new babies the last week of September. We thawed have until spring before they became 80-90# goofy beasts. They are so big now that three of them can jump over our Dutch door if the top is open.
> View attachment 59234 View attachment 59236 View attachment 59238 View attachment 59239 View attachment 59240  This goat isn’t even struggling to stand there. They take treats off of the shelf that is just outside the door and a little lower than the door as well.


If you can put shavings down and change them regularly that'll help some but I'm sure you're doing that. I use pdz in my chicken coop I mix it in sand and put it on the poop board.  Of course, you don't want them breathing it so if there's some way you could put that down near the ground level underneath your bedding.  I am sure you're working on ventilation.

I get this a tractor supply, but you'd have to get it so they wouldn't be breathing it inI.

Sweet PDZ Stall Refresher, 25 lb.
(86)
$9.99


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

OneFineAcre said:


> That's what I have.  Everyone I know has either fine gravel or just plain old dirt.  What kind of floor do you think would be better?
> 
> Edited to add"
> What kind of ventilation do you have?


Mine are compaction rock floors.  Just have a lot of ventilation.


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## Daxigait (Mar 8, 2019)

It cost me a 12:30 in the morning vet call to learn that if a doe does not dilate in the cervix and it's starting to get pushing contractions that you can give 30 cc's of  calcium paste with minerals or some other form of calcium and if it doesn't work try again in a few hours after that you would have to resort to more drastic measures.
She had me just use a big oral syringe and give her 30 cc's of this paste/gel.


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## Carla D (Mar 8, 2019)

OneFineAcre said:


> That's what I have.  Everyone I know has either fine gravel or just plain old dirt.  What kind of floor do you think would be better?
> 
> Edited to add"
> What kind of ventilation do you have?


Well, we have an old hole ridden pole shed. Leaky as ever. It is honestly as cold in there as it is outside. Especially now after our huge pigs destroyed one of the door coverings to either get in or out after our last huge snowfall. The floor in the shed is the typical large gravel you would likely find in a persons driveway. Some of our gravel floor has had pigs putting their own touches on the design flaw of the  floor. That floor will be purely mud when it starts to thaw in the spring.

I’m at a loss right now as what to do for the moment so we can keep them in that area until we get an area set up for them in the spring. I’m wondering if a floor with a few inches of PACKED sand would work if it were topped with pine needles, wood chips, even straw. But whatever gets put down needs to be able to soak up all of the urine a goat releases per day. It’s a lot. Then you need to be able to clean the floor of its bedding or covering. It would also be a huge benefit if you would be able to either hose it off or deep clean and sanitize down the road when needed.

Right now my goats are in an enclosed room which doesn’t have a solid ceiling. The enclosure is about 10’x12’ approximately. I did put a huge tarp over the ceiling to try and keep some heat in their area. If I didn’t do that their water would be frozen in less than an hour. Since we don’t live there we typically go out there twice, possibly three times a day to do our chores and cares. That tarp is going to have to be taken down REALLY soon, even if the temperature doesn’t get above freezing. They are going to need their ceiling open for ventilation. I’m headed to the farm right now. I’ll try to take some pictures of our setup to show you what we have and where our issues are. Maybe you can avoid them for your setup.

Here’s some pictures. This is far from ideal, but we were in a pinch when brought our boys home. The ventilation at the moment is the space between the top of the wall and board that is about 2-3 inches above where I have the tarp attached. Otherwise we will have an open ceiling as ventilation. But we will have to take their house out of there or find a way of preventing them to climb over the walls by standing on their goat house.
.


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## Daxigait (Mar 9, 2019)

Carla D said:


> Well, we have an old hole ridden pole shed. Leaky as ever. It is honestly as cold in there as it is outside. Especially now after our huge pigs destroyed one of the door coverings to either get in or out after our last huge snowfall. The floor in the shed is the typical large gravel you would likely find in a persons driveway. Some of our gravel floor has had pigs putting their own touches on the design flaw of the  floor. That floor will be purely mud when it starts to thaw in the spring.
> 
> I’m at a loss right now as what to do for the moment so we can keep them in that area until we get an area set up for them in the spring. I’m wondering if a floor with a few inches of PACKED sand would work if it were topped with pine needles, wood chips, even straw. But whatever gets put down needs to be able to soak up all of the urine a goat releases per day. It’s a lot. Then you need to be able to clean the floor of its bedding or covering. It would also be a huge benefit if you would be able to either hose it off or deep clean and sanitize down the road when needed.
> 
> ...


I would be more worried about poor quality air than the cold.  As long as they are blocked from straight wind and wet because wet is the biggest enemy..  if you are worried about the cold you could build a heated Barrel or heated liquid tote.  you just cut about at 9 or 12:00 in square opening to Panama size of your goats and put metal box at the top with the ceramic fixture and 125 watt he lamp bulb and I taking a extension cord that the end off and hardwired in just put a little hole saw the top that you can use to extend the wire on in then it can't come and contact with any bedding and it can't say anything on fire and you can choose the length of the cord you need. If I'm doing a barrel I get one with the removable lid so it's easier to put just the lid up in the summer.


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## Baymule (Mar 9, 2019)

I know the snow is deep right now, when it melts enough to put up some sort of a fence for them, use cow panels. They will go up fast with T-posts and will give you a temporary pen so they can go outside for fresh air.


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## Carla D (Mar 9, 2019)

Baymule said:


> I know the snow is deep right now, when it melts enough to put up some sort of a fence for them, use cow panels. They will go up fast with T-posts and will give you a temporary pen so they can go outside for fresh air.


Most definitely.


Daxigait said:


> I would be more worried about poor quality air than the cold.  As long as they are blocked from straight wind and wet because wet is the biggest enemy..  if you are worried about the cold you could build a heated Barrel or heated liquid tote.  you just cut about at 9 or 12:00 in square opening to Panama size of your goats and put metal box at the top with the ceramic fixture and 125 watt he lamp bulb and I taking a extension cord that the end off and hardwired in just put a little hole saw the top that you can use to extend the wire on in then it can't come and contact with any bedding and it can't say anything on fire and you can choose the length of the cord you need. If I'm doing a barrel I get one with the removable lid so it's easier to put just the lid up in the summer.


i know they can handle the cold. They have nice thick winter coats now. I am most concerned about them going without water for for 10-12 hours at a time. I don’t have the luxury of being able to go out there every couple of hours to bust the ice off so they can get a drink. They are nearly six months old. They do not need a heat source anymore. Plus they are so big now that we don’t have anyway to keep their water patent for at least a few hours. But now that they are big enough to jump on their house and look over their 8+’ walls we worry they will get out if we take the tarp off.


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## Bayleaf Meadows (Mar 10, 2019)

What about deep bedding?  Keep adding fresh over the soiled layers until spring clean out. Do you have 20 sq ft per goat?


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## Carla D (Mar 10, 2019)

Bayleaf Meadows said:


> What about deep bedding?  Keep adding fresh over the soiled layers until spring clean out. Do you have 20 sq ft per goat?


I had tried doing that up until about two weeks again when I had to clean out their quarters as quickly as possible. I had discovered that the smell of burning corn or burning hay that I’d been smelling for about a week was actually in the goat pen. I found some really hot smoldering hay in their pen. It took me 6 hours to remove all of it on my own. My goat are in an area that is roughly 10’x12’ which equates to them having about 15 square feet each. It isn’t ideal, but that is what we had available to use when we built their area last November. They were itty bitty baby goats at that time. We didn’t expect them to grow as fast as they did. We were thinking that that space would be more than adequate for them until spring when we could get them outside permanently. We are down to 4 straw bales to get us by until spring for bedding. We are also down to 8 or 9 hay bales for feed to last us until first crop bales became available from local farmers. We may end up using alfalfa pellets to get us by.


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## Baymule (Mar 10, 2019)




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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

All right, can we get back to the point of this thread? For instance, it was someone telling her story about how she almost lost two of her bucks to anaphylactic reaction that enabled me to recognize an anaphylactic reaction in my doe Chaos in time to save her. I never thought I would see an anaphylactic reaction in a goat especially, to a vaccine that they had had before but I did. Unlike a lot of animals it's not usually a very quick or violent reaction they usually just go lay down and get lethargic because usually they drown in their own fluid in their lungs when they get an anaphylactic reaction.  so it's really important to not do too many at a time so you can monitor them, it's important not to do multiple vaccinations at once,and it's advisable that you're able to observe them for a while because it is usually not immediate and is often subtle.  Most vaccine bottle say to use them all at once since I don't always do that I draw them all into sterile needles and then seal those needles in a container.  that may not be the best but I don't buy an entire bottle every time.
I now keep epinephrine on hand, or you can use dexamethasone.  I just simply put a dose in my container that I'm taking out to do my goats. Like having antitoxin on hand in the spring for it's now a permanent part of my med supplies.

Chaos and I remind forever thankful to Karen for telling her story


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## babsbag (Mar 10, 2019)

Don't feed grain hay to bucks or wethers as a primary diet.  Lost one to UC inspite of giving AC. The Calcium to phosphorus ratio is WAY off.

Goats can choke and die from alfalfa pellets.


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 10, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> I never thought I would see an anaphylactic reaction in a goat especially, to a vaccine that they had had before but I did



_Like other allergic reactions, an anaphylactic reaction does not usually occur after the first exposure to an allergen but may occur after a subsequent exposure._


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## Carla D (Mar 10, 2019)

I’ve heard you, @Baymule , @B&B Happy goats , @babsbag . Thank you all. DH and I need to discuss this. I do appreciate your bluntness and candor.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> _Like other allergic reactions, an anaphylactic reaction does not usually occur after the first exposure to an allergen but may occur after a subsequent exposure._


Yes, from what I learned it's most often the second exposure.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> _Like other allergic reactions, an anaphylactic reaction does not usually occur after the first exposure to an allergen but may occur after a subsequent exposure._


Yes, from what I learned it's most often the second exposure.  So think booster.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> _Like other allergic reactions, an anaphylactic reaction does not usually occur after the first exposure to an allergen but may occur after a subsequent exposure._


Yes, from what I learned it's most often the second exposure.  So think booster.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> _Like other allergic reactions, an anaphylactic reaction does not usually occur after the first exposure to an allergen but may occur after a subsequent exposure._


Yes, from what I learned it's most often the second exposure.  So think booster.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

Baymule said:


> On my second lambing, I had twin lambs get chilled and unresponsive. I didn't know to warm them up before tube feeding them. I warmed them up afterwards. They died. I received good advice here on BYH, and I acted upon it, but the lambs had been too cold too long, I didn't know to warm them up ASAP. I just didn't know.
> 
> Then to compound the grief, their mother, my favorite ewe and big pet went down. Took her to the vet, she had Ruptured Pre-Pubic Tendon, everything was hanging down, her belly looked like a pot belly pig. She was struggling just to breathe. We had to put her down. I didn't know what it was and didn't recognize it before she lambed. Still couldn't have done anything about it, so I guess it was just as well.
> 
> https://www.backyardherds.com/threads/baymules-lambs-2nd-lambing.34888/page-8


Sorry, and thanks for sharing to help others.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

Carla D said:


> I’ve heard you, @Baymule , @B&B Happy goats , @babsbag . Thank you all. DH and I need to discuss this. I do appreciate your bluntness and candor.


You can cut your numbers/ you can try the shavings since you don't have straw as the pine bedding is less likely to catch fire than hay along with some sand and pdz.  Both of which are available at most local farm stores.


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## Daxigait (Mar 10, 2019)

babsbag said:


> Don't feed grain hay to bucks or wethers as a primary diet.  Lost one to UC in spite of giving AC. The Ca ration is WAY off.
> 
> Goats can choke and die from alfalfa pellets.


.    In addition to what babsbag said also watch out for some places that use cereal grain in their grain.  That is way off on the Calcium Phosphorus ratio too.


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## babsbag (Mar 10, 2019)

Another option for PDZ is a product called Stall Dry. It is similar to sand, I love that stuff.


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## Southern by choice (Mar 10, 2019)

I wish I had known that all emergencies will be on a Sunday night when all stores are closed and the vet is out of town. 

Ok I know that isn't what you were looking for.   Great thread! I'll think on this.


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## babsbag (Mar 11, 2019)

And oh so true. She also wishes she had known that goats were addicting.


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## Eteda (Mar 13, 2019)

Stall dry is good stuff. It has diatomaceous earth, charcoal and hydrated lime in it. It absorbs moisture and kills odor. However hydrated lime( hot lime) some call it will take care of odor and flies, nats etc in the muddy barn floor. About a quart or two per 12 x 12 area. Can be used under bedding also. About $10.00 hear for 50 lbs. good for top dressing dead stinky critters the Pyrenees drags up as trophy’s so you can get close enough to it to bury it. Works good in chicken houses, yards and out houses. Before hydrated lime they used ashes and charcoal in the out houses. Please air out shavings befor use. The strong smell of cedar or pine without adaquat ventilation causes respiratory problems just like urine and ammonia.


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## journey11 (Mar 13, 2019)

This is the bloat video on how/where to puncture the gut. It took like maybe 5 minutes with little gentle rubbing until the air quit pouring out. I did give the baking soda and oil first before I tried this. She was down and not wanting to get up and breathing hard, so I felt it was necessary to go to this extent. I also gave her one simethicone chewable a few hours later as she still wasn't herself. She has gut sounds now, passed some more gas, and is up and walking at the moment, nibbling grass.


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## Baymule (Mar 13, 2019)

journey11 said:


> This is the bloat video on how/where to puncture the gut. It took like maybe 5 minutes with little gentle rubbing until the air quit pouring out. I did give the baking soda and oil first before I tried this. She was down and not wanting to get up and breathing hard, so I felt it was necessary to go to this extent. I also gave her one simethicone chewable a few hours later as she still wasn't herself. She has gut sounds now, passed some more gas, and is up and walking at the moment, nibbling grass.


It's good to see you here.


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## journey11 (Mar 13, 2019)

Hi there, Bay!


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## Eteda (Mar 13, 2019)

thank you very much for this video on treating bloat. Something I really wanted to see and learn about.


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## Daxigait (Mar 18, 2019)

Here's a reminder it's the time of year but it's most prevalent so make sure you keep the antitoxin on hand in case you get a case of entero toxemia. For those of you who have never had it be glad but be on the lookout for one that suddenly isn't eating or is doing that screaming cry you'll recognize it even if you've never heard it it's a constant bleeding cry not I'm hungry but aaaah aaah.  you have so little time most people come home and just find them dead it can kill in 12 hours or less.  By the time they're doing that screaming cry you have less.  You can put some of the antitoxin down their throat and some Sub-Q you can even put the CD and T vaccine straight down their throat as a last-ditch if you don't have the antitoxin.  Give banamine and you can even give oral penicillin on top of the other plus oil to coat.
Be advised the antitoxin works for 2 weeks and then they're susceptible again but it kills their vaccinations so if they have been vaccinated for CD&T and you use the antitoxin you must re vaccinate.


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## Wendybear (Mar 18, 2019)

Hi all, I’m so new to goats I hesitate to offer any advice, but in my very short time as a goat owner I have had 2 emergencies and both were saved by activated charcoal.

The first incident was when I went to the goat yard and saw my Nigerian Dwarf doe looking like Cujo. Her hair was standing up on end, she had green foam all over her muzzle and was obviously very ill. I was terrified. I called her breeder and the vet and it was speculated that she may have had too much lush pasture or ate a toxic plant while browsing. I’m still not sure. But I remember that she improved dramatically after I dosed her with some activated charcoal.

The second time was last week, both she and her wether companion got into some moldy hay and had the foam face again. This time the vet advised mixing baking soda with water and my doe responded well and started to improve. My wether did not and remained sick for two days. I continued with the baking soda, and after some online research added milk of magnesia. He still didn’t improve and I was sure he was a goner. Then I remembered the activated charcoal and again, there was an immediate and dramatic improvement!


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## Daxigait (Mar 19, 2019)

Thank you so much for sharing.  It doesn't matter if you're new. if you have some good advice about a situation that's helpful that's all that matters cuz there's always somebody newer than you or her or who has not seen the condition you are familiar with. I remember hearing about that long ago and forgetting I am so glad you mentioned it I will make sure that's in my cabinet for spring and summer.  

How much did you give and how?


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## AmberLops (Mar 19, 2019)

I think this is a great idea! People can learn from others mistakes and i'm sure a lot of people can relate to these posts!
Is this post for goats only? I have some rabbit stories but no goat stories... ?


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## Daxigait (Mar 19, 2019)

AmberLops said:


> I think this is a great idea! People can learn from others mistakes and i'm sure a lot of people can relate to these posts!
> Is this post for goats only? I have some rabbit stories but no goat stories... ?


Share away lit's of people own different types of animals. I don't happen to have any rabbits but I have goats, a horse, cows, and chickens.


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## journey11 (Mar 19, 2019)

frustratedearthmother said:


> _Like other allergic reactions, an anaphylactic reaction does not usually occur after the first exposure to an allergen but may occur after a subsequent exposure._



This happened to me this evening! Katie was on her 6th antibiotic shot and right after she was wobbling around like a drunk with her eyes closed and 10 minutes later dropped. I had read about the possibility of shock, but didn't think it would happen on a shot she'd had before. I had EpiPens on hand that I never had to use on myself and ended up giving her 2 of those. She went from lying there half dead to back on her feet and eating grass like a miracle.


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## frustratedearthmother (Mar 19, 2019)

Great save!  So glad you were able to help her!


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## Daxigait (Mar 20, 2019)

journey11 said:


> This happened to me this evening! Katie was on her 6th antibiotic shot and right after she was wobbling around like a drunk with her eyes closed and 10 minutes later dropped. I had read about the possibility of shock, but didn't think it would happen on a shot she'd had before. I had EpiPens on hand that I never had to use on myself and ended up giving her 2 of those. She went from lying there half dead to back on her feet and eating grass like a miracle.


I used one epi myself the first time as it is all I had.  I now have Epinephrine and Dexamethasone on hand and two doses ready anytime I give shots.

So glad she is well!   Share to save!


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## journey11 (Mar 20, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> I used one epi myself the first time as it is all I had.  I now have Epinephrine and Dexamethasone on hand and two doses ready anytime I give shots.
> 
> So glad she is well!   Share to save!



I went back and looked at the label later. The expiration date was August 2013!  It is a total miracle that it even worked. The fluid was still clear. I had always kept it in a dark cabinet. I knew it was life or death to try.


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## Daxigait (Mar 20, 2019)

I know   I was terrified to give a human dose that time but it was all I had, and she was going to die without something so I hit her with it in the butt . I later learned from my friend who's a nurse that humans can give it every five minutes you don't want to give it any sooner for quite a while when they're trying to save someone.
The dose I have now for goats is very small you don't want to stop their heart.
I keep mine in my big backpack for backcountry hiking.


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## journey11 (Mar 20, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> I know   I was terrified to give a human dose that time but it was all I had, and she was going to die without something so I hit her with it in the butt . I later learned from my friend who's a nurse that humans can give it every five minutes you don't want to give it any sooner for quite a while when they're trying to save someone.
> The dose I have now for goats is very small you don't want to stop their heart.
> I keep mine in my big backpack for backcountry hiking.



That would be wise, seeing as how you never know when you might stumble upon a hornets' nest.  I thought my doctor was just paranoid, so I got tired of carrying mine, and the hundreds of dollars to buy a new one each year. I do carry Benadryl on me though. 

The dose on my EpiPen was 0.3 mL of 1:1000th strength and altogether I gave her 2. I read online goats should get 1 mL per 100 lbs, right? She is 62 lbs, so I guess that came out just about right.


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## AmberLops (Mar 20, 2019)

I raise Holland Lops and around 3 years ago something strange was going on in my rabbitry! They were doing really well and I didn't see any health issues at all. Then one litter I had (5 babies) were about 7 weeks old and I had them all together...one day I went to check on them and one of the babies was lying flat on the floor of the cage. I put my hand on her and she was cold but still breathing and still had a normal pulse, but she was paralyzed. I though maybe she was playing with her siblings and suffered a spinal injury (i'm a vet tech so that's the first thing that came to mind) so I humanely put her down to prevent any more suffering  The next day I went to feed them and one of her siblings was in the same position as she was...with a pulse and breathing but paralyzed. I put him in a box with a heat mat underneath and gave him about 20 minutes. I tried checking for pain response but there was none. So I humanely put him down. Then a few days later, one of my sister's rabbits had the exact same thing!! I was stumped. I researched for DAYS trying to figure out what happened, with no luck. My sister didn't have the heart to put her bunny down, so she syringe fed her and wiped her down with a cloth. She still had normal urinary/bowel movements but couldn't move any part of her body. 2 days later, by some kind of miracle, she was back to normal! Hopping around, eating drinking and being a normal rabbit. Strangest thing I've seen. I still to this day have no clue what happened. But none of my other rabbits ever got this again. And one day I was watching an episode of Dr. K's exotic animal ER and someone brought in their rabbit with this exact same problem...they did all the tests and nothing came up positive for disease/viruses. They did bloodwork and x-rays and nothing showed up for severed spine/ruptured disks etc. They ended up euthanizing the rabbit after a week of tests. Any ideas on what this could have been?  Just seems so strange that it all happened at the same time like a virus but only a few rabbits were affected. It couldn't have been moldy feed or hay, because all the other rabbits were fine! Anyone else ever have this happen?


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## Wendybear (Mar 20, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> Thank you so much for sharing.  It doesn't matter if you're new. if you have some good advice about a situation that's helpful that's all that matters cuz there's always somebody newer than you or her or who has not seen the condition you are familiar with. I remember hearing about that long ago and forgetting I am so glad you mentioned it I will make sure that's in my cabinet for spring and summer.
> 
> How much did you give and how?


She was between 40 and 50lbs and the vet recommended opening 20 capsules in 30ml of water.

The second time, with my wether, I only had 10 capsules left, so I gave that in 15ml of water, but it did the trick bc he was eating and drinking within about 20 minutes and by the next day was doing his circle spins in the air. 

I was fortunate bc I have 2 teenage daughters who are into natural skincare, so we usually have some around. They make face masks and other stuff with the charcoal. Lol


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## Wendybear (Mar 20, 2019)

journey11 said:


> That would be wise, seeing as how you never know when you might stumble upon a hornets' nest.  I thought my doctor was just paranoid, so I got tired of carrying mine, and the hundreds of dollars to buy a new one each year. I do carry Benadryl on me though.
> 
> The dose on my EpiPen was 0.3 mL of 1:1000th strength and altogether I gave her 2. I read online goats should get 1 mL per 100 lbs, right? She is 62 lbs, so I guess that came out just about right.


Wow! It’s that much? I don’t have $100s to spend on an epi pen either. How do you give the Benadryl?


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## journey11 (Mar 20, 2019)

Wendybear said:


> Wow! It’s that much? I don’t have $100s to spend on an epi pen either. How do you give the Benadryl?



The Benadryl is for me.  Liquid for kids works faster than the pills. A doc at urgent care told me I could take up to 100 mg. Not saying this is the wisest thing to do if you have a bad allergy. I broke out in hives once from a wasp and that's why they gave me the EpiPen. I hope they've got a generic by now.


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## Daxigait (Mar 21, 2019)

Wendybear said:


> She was between 40 and 50lbs and the vet recommended opening 20 capsules in 30ml of water.
> 
> The second time, with my wether, I only had 10 capsules left, so I gave that in 15ml of water, but it did the trick bc he was eating and drinking within about 20 minutes and by the next day was doing his circle spins in the air.
> 
> I was fortunate bc I have 2 teenage daughters who are into natural skincare, so we usually have some around. They make face masks and other stuff with the charcoal. Lol


Thanks!


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## Baymule (Mar 21, 2019)

I have had dogs bit by copperhead snakes. While poisonous, their bite is rarely fatal. It is painful and the area around the bite swells up. We had a mini dachshund puppy about 6 months old get bit in the face one night. Her face swelled up. She was so small, her face swelled up so big, it was scary. We followed my protocol, giving her medicine every 4 hours for 3 doses and by morning she was much better and the swelling was greatly down.

My copperhead snake bite kit is Arnicare pills for pain. Give 4-6 pills, depending on size. 

https://www.arnicare.com/

Arnicare is great stuff, we use it for arthritis, aches and pains, in the pill and rub on cream form. It isn't just for the dogs! LOL

Also in the copperhead snake bite kit is Benadryl in either liquid or pill form. The liquid seems to work faster, but they hate the taste, so sometimes it is easier to give the pill. 

And baby aspirin. 1 baby aspirin every 4 hours. 

Since we moved here 4 years ago, we've had 3 dogs get bit by copperheads. I give them the above medications every 4 hours, usually 3 times will do it, let them sleep it off and baby them for a couple of days and they are back to their bouncy self. 

Symptoms are limping, swollen and painful (usually a paw). If a face is bitten, the head swells up. 

Our male Great Pyrenees, Trip came in one night, limping. His front leg was so swollen that I couldn't find where he got bit. He didn't want me touching it, it hurt. I started him on my snake bite medicine every 4 hours, for 3 doses, until late at night, then I put him on the porch and we went to bed. I let him  in the next morning and started over with the medicine. He got 3 more doses, sleeping in between. Finally he went outside to potty, got a drink and came back in. Trip slept in the floor and the swelling went down. His bite site was on the inside of his front leg, up near his chest. It left a hole about the size of a quarter. He licked and licked it, I did not treat it. The wound took a couple of weeks to heal.


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## Wendybear (Mar 22, 2019)

journey11 said:


> The Benadryl is for me.  Liquid for kids works faster than the pills. A doc at urgent care told me I could take up to 100 mg. Not saying this is the wisest thing to do if you have a bad allergy. I broke out in hives once from a wasp and that's why they gave me the EpiPen. I hope they've got a generic by now.


Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. I thought you kept it on hand for your goats. Lol


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## AmberLops (Mar 22, 2019)

Baymule said:


> I have had dogs bit by copperhead snakes. While poisonous, their bite is rarely fatal. It is painful and the area around the bite swells up. We had a mini dachshund puppy about 6 months old get bit in the face one night. Her face swelled up. She was so small, her face swelled up so big, it was scary. We followed my protocol, giving her medicine every 4 hours for 3 doses and by morning she was much better and the swelling was greatly down.
> 
> My copperhead snake bite kit is Arnicare pills for pain. Give 4-6 pills, depending on size.
> 
> ...



Good to know! Just moved to Tennessee and I guess the most snake bites here come from Copperheads.
I lived in AZ for college (vet tech) and I worked at a clinic there for about a year. We always used Benadryl and chlorhexidine works great for healing wounds up in no time. It's pretty easy to get and it's great for all animals and humans too!


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## Daxigait (Mar 22, 2019)

Carla D said:


> I can’t get all of the urine/ammonia cleaned out of there. The only thing that is preventing my goats from getting really sick is the fact that it’s so cold even our barn floor is frozen, except in the goat stall. That is a few degrees warmer than the rest of the barn.


so did you try the Sweet PDZ or something else suggested?


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## Carla D (Mar 22, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> so did you try the Sweet PDZ or something else suggested?


Actually I boys bag of barn lime. They were out of PDZ and Stall Dry at all of our local farm stores. It does help some. I also did a bit of digging up the old gravel and filled with sand.


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## Daxigait (Mar 26, 2019)

I learned last night that sugar makes a good bloodstop.


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## Stephine (Mar 26, 2019)

Carla D said:


> I can’t get all of the urine/ammonia cleaned out of there. The only thing that is preventing my goats from getting really sick is the fact that it’s so cold even our barn floor is frozen, except in the goat stall. That is a few degrees warmer than the rest of the barn.


Since you‘re stuck and the goats are affected - can you clean out and then try deep bedding? Also add lots of Sweet PDZ. That Should definitely help.


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## Stephine (Mar 26, 2019)

Carla D said:


> I had tried doing that up until about two weeks again when I had to clean out their quarters as quickly as possible. I had discovered that the smell of burning corn or burning hay that I’d been smelling for about a week was actually in the goat pen. I found some really hot smoldering hay in their pen. It took me 6 hours to remove all of it on my own. My goat are in an area that is roughly 10’x12’ which equates to them having about 15 square feet each. It isn’t ideal, but that is what we had available to use when we built their area last November. They were itty bitty baby goats at that time. We didn’t expect them to grow as fast as they did. We were thinking that that space would be more than adequate for them until spring when we could get them outside permanently. We are down to 4 straw bales to get us by until spring for bedding. We are also down to 8 or 9 hay bales for feed to last us until first crop bales became available from local farmers. We may end up using alfalfa pellets to get us by.


Pine shavings are much better than straw for keeping odors down. Not sure they are safe to use for goats, but switching to shavings would be a huge improvement.


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## momto6Ls (Apr 7, 2019)

My experience is shipping fever. Our very first goat was a 7 year old Nubian doe in milk. She was born and raised in one place and never moved. We almost lost our sweet Sal, right away!  Her milk supply tanked, and the previous owner suspected mastitis so we treated her for that. Scours came next, and she was off feed. Goats are such nervous and sensitive creatures!  I learned that Bovi-Sera is a must have for goats as well as cows and sheep. I give it to all kids as well as adults before they are sold. It is recommended to give to all kids after birth to boost their immune system. (Annie, at Hoegger Supply won't be without it) I used it last kidding season on a kid that was weak. Do yourself a favor and keep a bottle on hand. 

Thanks for this thread!


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## Baymule (Apr 7, 2019)

momto6Ls said:


> My experience is shipping fever. Our very first goat was a 7 year old Nubian doe in milk. She was born and raised in one place and never moved. We almost lost our sweet Sal, right away!  Her milk supply tanked, and the previous owner suspected mastitis so we treated her for that. Scours came next, and she was off feed. Goats are such nervous and sensitive creatures!  I learned that Bovi-Sera is a must have for goats as well as cows and sheep. I give it to all kids as well as adults before they are sold. It is recommended to give to all kids after birth to boost their immune system. (Annie, at Hoegger Supply won't be without it) I used it last kidding season on a kid that was weak. Do yourself a favor and keep a bottle on hand.
> 
> Thanks for this thread!



I never heard of this, can you explain in a little more detail please? You use it to prevent shipping fever when you sell an animal? Sounds like miracle stuff!


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## Daxigait (Apr 9, 2019)

momto6Ls said:


> My experience is shipping fever. Our very first goat was a 7 year old Nubian doe in milk. She was born and raised in one place and never moved. We almost lost our sweet Sal, right away!  Her milk supply tanked, and the previous owner suspected mastitis so we treated her for that. Scours came next, and she was off feed. Goats are such nervous and sensitive creatures!  I learned that Bovi-Sera is a must have for goats as well as cows and sheep. I give it to all kids as well as adults before they are sold. It is recommended to give to all kids after birth to boost their immune system. (Annie, at Hoegger Supply won't be without it) I used it last kidding season on a kid that was weak. Do yourself a favor and keep a bottle on hand.
> 
> Thanks for this thread!


I keep that right beside the antitoxin and the tetanus antitoxin in my fridge. I swear my fridge looks like a pharmacy half the time.  Isn't that what the meat drawer is for?

I have never dealt with shipping fever I had someone suggest giving selenium and E  paste and eletrolytpe paste a week before you travel. But I don't know. 
It amazes me how sensitive goats are two leaving and moving or having someone leave the herd.


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## Daxigait (Apr 9, 2019)

I need to read back through and see if I've mentioned anaplasmosis. Speaking of an animal you sold for that one can sneak up on you it masquerades like coccidia.

It  is an easy treatmentwith la300 if you catch it early. If you don't it's sneaky cuz they often seem toto  better and tgen worse then crash as it makes them really really anemic and eventually kills.  Often spread by ticks and biting black flies.


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## Daxigait (Apr 9, 2019)

Baymule said:


> I never heard of this, can you explain in a little more detail please? You use it to prevent shipping fever when you sell an animal? Sounds like miracle stuff!


I hope she replies with more details, but I know it's something a companion that my vet has had me give along with the antitoxin for enterotoxemia.


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## Daxigait (Jul 2, 2019)

I added another must-have item to my medkit.  ZINTET finally something that is working.
Footrot
I had been trying and working all the
old-fashioned remedies that always worked in the past clean it out really well use some bleach use some iodine wrap it up with lime, and nothing worked because nothing could stay dry.
I don't know how much the Zintet benefited from the fact that we finally got almost three days in a row it didn't rain or what. All I know is that I put that stuff on the second day that we were dry because that's when I got it from the vet.   Within 24 hours a doe that hadn't put her left rear foot down in two weeks was walking on that foot. several others are also radically improving and will get another treatment.


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## Baymule (Jul 2, 2019)

Glad that you found something that worked!


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## hailehysen (Sep 28, 2019)

Daxigait said:


> Okay the idea of this thread is to share a condition, disease, ailment, something that happened to your animals that you wish you had known was possible or to watch for, or that you had been aware of the symptoms in time.  A greatr treatment  Maybe you were lucky in your animal lived or maybe you are like many of us, and you have a wall of tears for the animals that you lost because you just didn't know. Whether it's ammonium chloride for bucks and watching them pee once a week or being aware of anaphylactic reactions, ketosis, bloat, goat polio, a bad plant/hay issue, or whatever comes to mind will you share your stories?   Because we really can learn from one another, and maybe it will save an animal from joining the wall of tears.
> 
> Dedicated to Echo my loving boy to whom I say I am so sorry I didn't know.
> And to Bliss a fantastic doeling, crossword solver sip calculator epfo the best I had, that I lost for not trusting my gut.  If a treatment won't hurt them, but could possibly save them do it anyway  I listened to the more experienced who were not there . I was wrong, and I lost for sure by hesitating.


I’m still trying to figure out  what I can do to help my situation. There is way too much snow and cold to be building outside right now and has been for a couple of months now.


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## Daxigait (Jan 2, 2020)

Well, starting the evening of the 23rd I got my first introduction to Listeriosis.  when the symptoms first appeared I started treating her both polio and the stereo says since I have experienced polio before, but know play exhibit the same or similar symptoms. I know you have to treat for both because you don't have time to find out which one you have.  so she became a pincushion getting Thiamine and B12 in case it was polio, and massive doses of penicillin every 6 hours and daily dexamethasone in case it was listeria which is what it turned out to be.

unlike the loss of my great friend and beautiful herd Queen Ebony in November that broke my heart.  I was blessed that little Jasmine lived. 
it is a great reminder that animals can exhibit just the smallest symptoms that were fine hours before, and you have to be on top of it.   She was just a little off at feed time not herself not pushing in to eat and the part of the group.  Then later when I pulled her off by herself to feed her some more and observe her she started circling which immediately sent me running for the medkit.  between the way she was pushed around and not eating and turtle lethargic when you added the circling to it I was off and running.


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## Baymule (Jan 3, 2020)

So glad that you were able to pull her through it.


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## Daxigait (Jan 3, 2020)

Daxigait said:


> Well, starting the evening of the 23rd I got my first introduction to Listeriosis.  when the symptoms first appeared I started treating her both polio and the stereo says since I have experienced polio before, but know play exhibit the same or similar symptoms. I know you have to treat for both because you don't have time to find out which one you have.  so she became a pincushion getting Thiamine and B12 in case it was polio, and massive doses of penicillin every 6 hours and daily dexamethasone in case it was listeria which is what it turned out to be.
> 
> unlike the loss of my great friend and beautiful herd Queen Ebony in November that broke my heart.  I was blessed that little Jasmine lived.
> it is a great reminder that animals can exhibit just the smallest symptoms that were fine hours before, and you have to be on top of it.   She was just a little off at feed time not herself not pushing in to eat and the part of the group.  Then later when I pulled her off by herself to feed her some more and observe her she started circling which immediately sent me running for the medkit.  between the way she was pushed around and not eating and turtle lethargic when you added the circling to it I was off and running.





Baymule said:


> So glad that you were able to pull her through it.


two. I have to do everything we can, and thank the Lord who works. it is so crucial that people who understand that you have to be on top of it have to check them every day you have to watch her little changes. especially if you're going to have a chance at curing something with that high of a mortality rate.

I have got to the point I don't wait around for answers or diagnosis or sometimes ask for it later but I started because it's going off at half-time and frankly you know your animals best. that is the hardest part for me letting anyone care for my animals run gone for a few days something like this if not notice for 12 hours could have been deadly.


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## YourRabbitGirl (Jan 6, 2020)

Daxigait said:


> What problem are you seeing specifically.



Allowing Pygmy goats live inside your house is really not a great idea. I can't imagine how you take care of the filth.


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## B&B Happy goats (Jan 6, 2020)

YourRabbitGirl said:


> Allowing Pygmy goats live inside your house is really not a great idea. I can't imagine how you take care of the filth.



You simply keep them in a large crate, have puppy pads down  and change the pads as needed...I don't  consider it filth, goat berries are much more pleasant than what humans defecate.....


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## Baymule (Jan 6, 2020)

YourRabbitGirl said:


> Allowing Pygmy goats live inside your house is really not a great idea. I can't imagine how you take care of the filth.


For bottle babies, what @B&B Happy goats said and sometimes people put baby diapers on them. Not recommended to living inside permanently.


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## Daxigait (Jan 5, 2021)

I am going to put a plug in for duraferm concept aid mineral it has been a real improvement along with feeding Cicero Lespediza to my goats  I offer that mineral free choice along with the different local mineral,  and the round bales of lezpedza which is not my main feed but they're out there and I have seen a real improvement with my issues with barber pole


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