# Crossing breeds for meat---opinions on selection.



## Pearce Pastures (Dec 7, 2012)

Morning all,

I like to research and plan things out way ahead of them actually coming to fruition so I'd like to pick your brains on a June/July project.  My parents and I always go in together on a freezer steer each year and had kicked the idea of raising our own, but after thinking about the upfront costs, issues of transportation to a butcher, and a lack of knowledge on raising cattle, we decided we would try out goat meat first since we have the set up and know-how already.  

Our experiment (DinDin) will be processed in April and if we like it, we will be getting a small herd of larger dairy and meat goats that we will raise on my mothers property (she has 8 acres they could browse and I would prefer to keep our meat animals separated from our NDs).

So the question:

I am not interested in registry, show, or anything when it comes to stocking my freezer  .  I want to crossbreed a larger dairy with a meat breed for hybrid vigor.  I am not sure which to select for the does and which for a buck, and in part that is because I do not know how they all match up size-wise.   I want the buck to be slightly smaller than whatever doe breed I choose so I don't run into kidding issues. 

*Breeds available in my area:  Kiko, Boer, Nubian, Sable/Saanen, Toggenburg, LaMancha, Alpine, Fainters.  

Which would you choose for a dam/sire combo?  *

I suppose I could always use one of my Nigerian bucks to breed a larger doe too but that will be plan B.


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## jodief100 (Dec 7, 2012)

If they are just for meat- go with a Boer buck on dairy does but not the other way around.  The Boer will give you size and structure and the high milk yield with the dams will give you fast growing kids.


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 7, 2012)

I would go with a doe that is already at least 50% meat goat with some dairy, and breed her to a 100% boer.  If you get too much dairy in your does, you aren't going to have enough meat to bone ratio in your offspring.  I fine the 88% boer/ 12% dairy kids seem to have a pretty good meat ratio, while the dams will be at 75% beor/25 % dairy and they do a good job milking.  
 The boer dairy cross does do eat more than my 100% boer does.  That is something to take into consideration. 


We had a spanish/boer cross bloodline for a few year. Honestly, the kids were smaller and always grew slower. Not sure if I was totally impressed. 

We also had a sannen/boer doe and she was really big,  had lots of potential, but for some reason she didn't let her milk down for the first 2 or 3 days after she kidded. That was too much work.  One daughter we kept from her did the same thing, so we culled the entire line.  But the kids she had grew really well. 

some breeds of dairy are more seasonal than others for breeding, so that is also something to take into consideration when selecting.  i know nubians are more likely to be non-seasonal breeders so that is a benifit to crossing them with Boer.  I also believe Nubians carry more meat on them than some of the other dairy breeds, but I am not an expert on this. 

What about trying a kiko/boer dam and breed to a boer sire?  REally no rule that you can't try a couple different crosses in your dams and just keep using Boer buck.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 7, 2012)

I also would not use a full dairy doe. I would have a dairy cross with a meat breed (Kiko, Boer, Spanish, Myotonic) and breed to a full meat breed buck. No reason why he too can't have some cross in him, but I wouldn't do a 50%, or even a 75%. The hybrid vigor would have made him bigger and he should pass that on. 

Spanish I would maybe stay away from though. From what I've seen the are like Kikos but smaller and really a lesser breed. I wouldn't go with Spanish. The Boers are great for that overall size and the Kikos for the quick growth on lesser fed and pasture if you feed that way. One thing you may want to look into is Myotonic and Myotonic crosses. They have 4:1 meat to bone ratio. No other breed has even a 3:1. So that may be good for you but you HAVE to get what I call "Real Myotonics" not these fake pet "Fainters" Real ones. lol


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## jodief100 (Dec 7, 2012)

I had assumed the OP wanted or already had full Dairy does for her own use and was just looking for a way to get more meat from them as feeder kids.  

If she is looking for a strict feeder kids, University of Tennessee research shows your lowest input/highest yield comes from Boer bucks bred to Kiko does.  

If she still wants a little dairy, I go with 20kids recommendation.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 7, 2012)

IMPO Boer and Kiko crosses (BoKi/Genemaster) are the best meat breed. Cross the Boer buck and the Kiko does and you get nice, large, meaty, fast growing stock. Get yourself some good stock of each and that takes most of your maintenance (hoof and worming) out, which makes raising them easier and less expensive. 

But if you want the dairy and all in them that's cool too. I just think that BoKis are best. Proper breeding and selective culling and you can have these goats reach slaughter weight 2 months faster then just Boers or Kikos.


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## Pearce Pastures (Dec 7, 2012)

You are right, I am looking for feeder goats and I currently have Nigerian Dwarf goats for our dairy needs.  Seeing as I don't need the dairy, it sounds like Boer/Kiko would be our best bet, and just leave out the dairy breed.  I do see where you mentioned, Jodie, that the dairy might be good to have some dairy line in the mix to provide higher milk yields for the kids since these would be dam raised.  

Perhaps then I might look for a percentage Boer or Kiko?  Thoughts?


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 7, 2012)

Kikos should be able to cover that. If you have Kiko does and then the Boer buck those Kiko does WILL be able to nurse those kids. Kikos were partly bred to have alot of milk and milk production so they can raise kids to a high wean weight and also to raise triplets and sometimes quads. Kikos are GREAT mothers and can care for the kids. Alot of goats and breeds can't handle triplets let alone quads. I've seen tons of triplets and quads raised by Kikos. I know someone who does not flush her Kiko does because they had quads every time she did and it was her who couldn't handle so many goats and kids, not the mamma Kikos!!

I think the Kiko and Boer cross is a great idea. I'd get Purebred or 100%'s but the 100%'ers will cost more. Boer buck, Kiko does.


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## jodief100 (Dec 7, 2012)

Straw Hat Kikos said:
			
		

> Kikos should be able to cover that. If you have Kiko does and then the Boer buck those Kiko does WILL be able to nurse those kids. Kikos were partly bred to have alot of milk and milk production so they can raise kids to a high wean weight and also to raise triplets and sometimes quads. Kikos are GREAT mothers and can care for the kids. Alot of goats and breeds can't handle triplets let alone quads. I've seen tons of triplets and quads raised by Kikos. I know someone who does not flush her Kiko does because they had quads every time she did and it was her who couldn't handle so many goats and kids, not the mamma Kikos!!
> 
> I think the Kiko and Boer cross is a great idea. I'd get Purebred or 100%'s but the 100%'ers will cost more. Boer buck, Kiko does.


I have kikos that raise trips and quads by themselves.  I happen to disagree with Straw on 100% goats.  I think high percentages are great and a lot cheaper to boot.  

Ask questions, there are "good"  boers and "not so good boers", same with kikos.  Ask for the kidding records and kid growth.  Parasite resistance is important, if a dam raisees big kids, she is probably at least somewhat parasite resitant. it is hard to feed kids when you are feeding worms.  

I will have some Bo-Ki's and high percentage/PB kikos available this spring.  They start kidding this month, the bulk of them are due in February.  I bred my LaManchas to my kiko buck and if any of those kids are does I can give you a good deal on them.   My buck has tested and proven parasite resistant offspring.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 7, 2012)

jodief100 said:
			
		

> Straw Hat Kikos said:
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Oh yeah, questions are very important, as I'm sure you know. lol You raise some nice Nigerians. You know the drill on all that kind of thing.

But you must know all about the records. The sizes, the ADG, the wean weights, the post wean ADG, the kidding records, how many, sizes, % raised, worming history, hoof history etc. I always say that you must know as much as the owner about their goats before you buy!!

Oh I like high percentages and 100% goats. I just think that because they are 100% people charge more. I'm not saying to go against them by any means. I'm just saying that finding purebred goats (94% for Kiko does and bucks) (94% for Boer does and 96% for bucks I believe) would be easier than finding 100% goats and les money. It's fine either way.


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 7, 2012)

If I were in the market for Boer/kiko cross does, I would be heading to Kentucky.    We don't raise them, because we are selling 4H wethers and the kiko crosses just aren't as much in demand as the boers and Boer/nubians.  

I will have to say, I know plenty of people raising triplets on their Boer does.  I have a couple full blood does that are very very good milkers and I have no doubt could raise triplets, even though they only have had twins up to this point. Not talking you out of Kiko or kiko/crosses, just saying by reading the above posts, you would assume boers aren't as good at  nursing their kids. 

Also, keep in mind. Kiko have a tendancy to be a little more on the wild side.  If you are looking for cuddly, tame goats then Kiko may not fit that bill all the time.  

I personally would love to try a 50% Boer/Kiko doe and breed her to a 100% Boer buck.  Or for your needs, I would even consider a 50% Boer/Kiko Doe and a 75% Boer/Kiko buck.  I would try to keep it so my kids were above 50% Boer. Kiko Bucks do get much bigger horn sets, and can be a little sassier and harder on your fencing, ect...   For me, I would prefer a 100% boer buck.


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## 20kidsonhill (Dec 7, 2012)

It probably will be easier finding a full blood Boer buck than percentages, because so many of the percentages are castrated at 8 to 10 weeks of age.  Many farms will sell a percentage Boer buck, but you have to reserve one ahead of time, so they don't castrate him.  There are a ton of Full blood Bucks for sale right now.  Finding the does percentage or 100% will be the harder part.


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## Pearce Pastures (Dec 7, 2012)

You all rock!  I might have to make a road trip to get a nice starter herd (need to make sure we like the meat of course, but I bet we will).  We have a few reputable boer folks around here too but I am not so sure about the Kikos.  I see them for sale regularly but do not know the breeders so I will start asking around for reputation advice.  When the time comes, I am all about asking questions before buying---I have had a few ND sellers get annoyed over the years when I ask but that is usually a clue for me to look elsewhere.  If they don't want me asking, I assume they are uncomfortable because they don't know or they do know and don't want to say.

I am thinking if I could start out with a 100% or purebred Boer buck, a companion wether for him, and three or four Kiko or Kiko/Boer does (possibly out of different lines for a good genetic mix) , we would be good to go for awhile.


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## Straw Hat Kikos (Dec 7, 2012)

@20kids
I think it depends on the lines for Boer milk production. I know a few people that have issues with their Boer milk production. The does have a hard time with triplets and run dry sometimes. I know of a Kiko breeder who no longer has Boers because of his many issues with them and he too had a hard time with them raising triplets. But that is ALL about lines for sure. 

Kikos are not as wild people make them out to be. I think that is you never spend anytime with a goat, regardless of breed, it's going to be rather wild. Of course there are exceptions though. I have three Kiko does and two are very social with people. One IS the friendliest goat you will ever see (you have doubt, come see her lol) and one likes her back and sides scratched but not her head. My other doe is a bit standoff-ish though. Moses keeps his distance, which I'm glad about. Though he has been following me around wanting me to scratch his nose lately which is rather weird for him. For the most part I will agree that Kikos are a bit more wild but that could be tamed if they wanted to. I have a neighbor that has Boers down the street and her Boers are wild!! You can't catch them and if you do they are hard to hold on to. Just saying and I am not trying to argue, so please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to show that it can go both ways and that not all Kikos are wild and not all Boer bucks are sweet and lovey. But again, Boers for the most part are tamer than Kikos.

Now I do completely disagree with you about a Kiko buck being harder on fences than Kikos. Remember, I am surrounded by Boer breeders and I do know several Kiko breeders around here as well as my experiences, and Boer buck can be HORRIBLE on fences. I've not seen a huge issue with Kiko bucks on fences but that may just be for the people here. I think hot wire will fix either a Boer buck or Kiko buck though.

I think you made a great point there!! I didn't even think about that but you are 100% right. People cut the baby bucks so it's hard to find a percentage. I was, however, talking about Purebred and 100% bucks, not the Percentages.


@Pearce
haha Glad I don't live there. I have a two page list of questions I ask people when thinking about buying goats. I talk to them on the phone first and if they pass the test (the 2 pages of questions) then I will go see the goat(s) and it's wise to bring a microscope and surprise them to check that out too. Don't tell them because then they'll worm the goat(s). lol Thankfully everyone here had been happy to answer my questions. I too would stay away if they don't like questions. When people buy from me I WANT them to ask me tons. That shows they care and want to learn about my goats. It shows how I go about things and how I raise my goats and what kind of condition they are in.

I think that's a great idea!! Purebred or 100% Boer buck and several Purebred (or 100%) and/or high Percentage Kiko does. 
And different lines my be smart that way if you have a doe or a buck you may want to keep and add in your breeding program you can. I think it sounds like a great plan and I think it's awesome you may get into meat goats!!


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## SheepGirl (Dec 7, 2012)

If I were you, I would buy all half or 3/4 or full sisters (or even dams/daughters/aunts/cousins) for your herd, rather than does not related. Closely related does will come into heat at about the same time, produce kids that are similar (growth, looks, health), have similar maternal traits (milking, mothering, etc) and be easy to choose bucks for (if the line of does you choose tend to be framey with not a lot of meat, you can choose an average sized thick buck to put on them and he will work for all of your does, rather than just one or two if you have a mix-matched set of does).

JMO


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## Mamaboid (Dec 8, 2012)

If I were breeding for meat and could start with whatever I wanted, I would breed boer doe to Fainter buck..or boer cross doe to Fainter buck...or kiko/nubian doe to fainter buck....wait...I am doing that one right now.  She is due in March.  Whatever doe, I would get some Fainter in there if at all possible.

ETA: edited because I spell for crap


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## Pearce Pastures (Dec 8, 2012)

Thanks for all the feedback.  I have a much better idea of what to get if we got ahead with this.  Now we just have to put up a pole building, run some wiring and water lines, install a fence and hotwire, build some feeding stands and other goat equipment, and we should be good to go for buying a starter herd LOL.

Thanks again---good advice here!


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