# Sheep Ranching Newbie



## Lamb Lover (Nov 23, 2015)

Hello there! I've posted on this website about my personal sheep and rabbits and you've all been very helpful so I hope you can help me with this little issue. 

I work with legal immigrant Peruvian sheep herders at a ranch about an hour from my house. I've worked with them for two years now and they're more like family to me. The rancher that employs them is not treating them or the animams correctly so we're trying to buy a ranch and then employ the herders and buy all the sheep, dogs and horses from the rancher. I advocate for the animals and my mom and her friend advocate for the herders and we created an Association to help raise awareness and raise money to help this beautiful men and aniamls because they deserve so much better. 

So to get to the point, I was hoping you would be able to give me an idea of how to properly run a sheep ranch. Since we have been there so many times we know how this ranch is run, which majority of it is incorrect so I need to know how to properly go about doing this. The dogs used are Border Collies, Great Pyrenees  and the Kangal (Anotolian Shepard) and there are about 50 total dogs. I don't know the breed of sheep or how many there are at this point, but they are shorn in March and they lamb in April to mid July, and are on the range for the rest of the year. 

I know what vaccines the sheep need, how to bottle feed and help a ewe give birth, herd and all the other basics I just need to know how it works on a bigger scale. As you can imagine this is a lot for a small group of people to do on their own so any help would be greatly appreciated. My personal sheep are bum lambs from last year, mixed breed. Two ewes and a ram and they are going to be ambassadors for our association. We've also picked a dog from each breed but we plan to go through with this. (Please don't judge or hate this is personal now thanks to the irresponsible actions of the rancher and I fully intend to bring justice to the men and animals.) 

Thanks for your time and help!


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## Southern by choice (Nov 23, 2015)

Lamb Lover said:


> Since we have been there so many times we know how this ranch is run, which majority of it is incorrect






Lamb Lover said:


> So to get to the point, I was hoping you would be able to give me an idea of how to properly run a sheep ranch.



You have not mentioned the number of sheep, the amount of land, the purpose for the sheep. Also you state that the ranch is not run properly  or the "majority of it is incorrect". What makes you think the ranch is not run properly? What are you thinking is incorrect?



Lamb Lover said:


> they are shorn in March and they lamb in April to mid July, and are on the range for the rest of the year


That is normal. Small or Large scale.



Lamb Lover said:


> irresponsible actions of the rancher


What are you seeing as irresponsible?


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## Lamb Lover (Nov 24, 2015)

The number of sheep he owned when we first started was around 8,000 ewes and they would get upwards of 10,000 lambs. He has since sold a few bands so we are unclear of the current number of sheep. I do know that he has 50 bucks but I'm going to say he has around 4,000 ewes left. I'm meeting with the foreman in a few days so I can get an exact number for you. We're  going to dicuss everything and see how it will all work out, get a good game plan.

The purpose of the sheep would mainly be wool. The way this rancher operates is crossing about half the ewes with Suffolk to get a multicolored lamb which they ship down to Mexico for meat in September. He gets most of his money from shipping but we want to first build our flock and then we'll  ship once we have a good number. We need about 40 acres, I was assigned the job of actually finding property and I have. It's 40 acres of flat land, all healthy grass with room to build and graze which is exactly what we were looking for. This is just what we call home base, we will be applying for grazing rights but home base needs to be big enough to fit all of our needs. Room for animals, multiple houses, barns and lambing sheds and a store. The store is a part of our associationwhich has grown extremely quickly. We have more than 300 supporters at this point. I myself have also partnered with the local humane society, my entire school of almost 1,000 is on board, and I've got contacts lined up in other states. We are dead serious about getting something a complied here haha.

This rancher makes millions of dollars each year I can assure you, yet he refuses to provide proper living conditions for animals and the herders, he refuses to provide proper vaccinations and care for the sheep, dogs and horses, he quit buying the herders food so we had to take them to the food bank. We supply them with clothing, food, building materials, medical care, basically everything the rancher is not. He's also offered to illegally hire herders again once their visa expires. He's an awful human and because he does this we have decided to help everybody out.

This man is only in it for the money and once his father retired and he wasn't getting whatever he wanted he decided to take it out on the men who made it possible for him to even operate. He knows nothing about his business the herders do EVERYTHING and he would be nowhere without them. His father cared for them and kept everything in good condition. It's just extremely upsetting to see this happen.


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## Latestarter (Nov 24, 2015)

Only hearing one side of this story the term PETA comes to mind... You say you know all about sheep and then state that you need instructions on how to run a sheep ranch while simultaneously stating that the rancher doesn't know what he's doing... How can you say that when you obviously don't know how to do what he's doing? You then state allegations with no obvious way of knowing factually the stuff you are stating as truth. You are throwing numbers around without knowledge of what the real numbers are. You're making accusations without stating or backing up with proof, making specific allegations with no meat on those bones. Everything you've posted is nothing more than hearsay. Your opinion.

Honestly? IMHO? You had best be careful you don't end up in court with a slander or libel suit against you, or a defamation of character suit. And if this rancher is as "rich" as you seem to think he is, he can very easily take you on and squash you. In addition, if you ARE able to raise these funds you will need to buy him out, he'll have the resources (provided by you)  to easily replace whatever you've purchased and then some, and just resume where he left off! You are doing all his hard work for him! You have now become his best customer, congratulations for supporting what you wish to destroy.

OK, now for a reality check: You wish to purchase 40 acres of land to put these animals and shepherds on. You then want to build all the required buildings to house and manage the animals you intend to purchase, as well as the people and dogs required to manage them. You'll  be supporting all this through donations??  (really??) Oh, wait... there'll be a store... and what will this store sell? Do you intend to make millions selling what you buy from this rancher?

OK 40 acres of suitable land... let's say $500,000.00 (probably much more if it's all you say it is). Then 4000-#,000 head of sheep at $500.00 each average comes to a mere $2-3,000,000.00. We'll include the rams (they're not bucks). Then we need to build barns and birthing sheds and housing facilities and a store front, and storage, and fencing that shouldn't cost more than another say $2,000,000.00. (including all permits etc?) Oh, and then there's FEED/HAY because the forage on 40 acres of PERFECT land won't last 4000 sheep a week. So figure 4000 head of sheep at 2 pounds of hay/day is 8,000 pounds of hay/day or 56,000 pounds per week. So basically 28 tons of hay per week... What is hay going for per ton right now?  "alfalfa _prices_ in northeastern _Colorado_ are at about $150 _per ton_ ..." Not sure where you're located but twice that in CA. So $5-10 grand a week for hay here in Colorado. Then there's maintenance and upkeep of all facilities. Did I mention vehicles? Yeah, you're gonna need a bunch of those as well!

Oh you're going to lease open range for them? Who will you lease it from? If it's public lands, they are already leased by others. You'll have to bid and wait. The range you're going to lease has what carrying capacity? How many acres will you need to lease for the number of sheep you'll be putting on it? And during what months will you be allowed to use this range? And what of the wild animals who will be displaced and not fed because your sheep are eating every green plant down to dirt level? And who or what is going to be looking after all these sheep when they're out on the range? the shepherds? the dogs? both? And how will they be supported with food, clothes, maintenance, living quarters?

Then we need to feed and house and care for all those dogs, because "one of each breed" won't be able to handle 100 sheep, let alone 4000! Then we need to pay for and feed and house and clothe those shepherds (and their families?).

Don't forget vet bills for all these animals, and medical support for all those people!

So now that all of that is covered, what will you do with everything you've acquired? sell it? gift it? support it until death do it part?

So essentially I see an initial outlay of upwards of 4-5 million dollars. Then (without a biz plan or excel spreadsheet and comprehensive, all encompassing breakdown) carrying costs of upwards of $50,000.00 per week or another $2.1 million a year. Now, some of these costs are tax deductible against PROFITS. So I guess somehow, you're going to need to make several million dollars a year right? And you'll be different from the present owner how?

I guess I just have a LOT of questions here. Preying on emotion will only get you so far.


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## Bossroo (Nov 24, 2015)

Ditto to what Latestarter said. So what activist group are you a spokesman for ??????  What is the legal status of this group ????  If it is run by you with a few groupies ...  You obviously are WAY OVER YOUR HEAD in comming even close to achieve your stated goals ... on 40 acres-  REALY ???   DREAM ON !!!  50 dogs ??? 10 dogs will do the job.  Call peta to rescue the rest.   Raising 4,000 sheep for wool?   Check out the costs of shearing wool verses the value of the wool.  Loosing proposition!!!    Without a COMPETANT CPA specializing in livestock,  you and your group will be in deep water with the IRS.  Bleeding heart groups such as aspca,peta, etc.  have gone after many a horse breeder and managed to put them out of business .  So now you are going after sheep ranchers ???


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## Lamb Lover (Nov 24, 2015)

Ok first of all, this rancher doesn't talk to us and it's not like we go out and count each sheep. Second of all, he's selling them at an extremely fast rate so how are we supossed to keep up? He wouldn't take us to court and "squash" us because he doesn't want sheep any more he wants to go into the cattle business. We aren't buying all 4,000 sheep from him because that's obviously too much to start out with and where would we house these sheep until we have fenced the land? Also, we have the ability to apply for grants to purchase this land not to mention the facts that the cost is being split between at least two groups of people. We are completely capable of purchasing the land and building the houses, and everybody involved owns a truck and at least one stock trailer. 

As for grazing the only time they would be at home base is during shearing and lambing. The foreman applies for all the grazing rights and has memorized the paths they take when they're out on the range. We also have family with more than 100 acres that are willing to let us graze there. Also the whole thing about bucks, the herders refer to them as bucks not rams so we just go with it. 

We do not expect the store to make all the money, it's for raising awareness about the herders as well as selling some of their artwork. (They're incredible artists) 

They have 50 dogs because the rancher didn't have them fixed and they bred and you need that many to take care of the number of sheep he had especially during lambing season. Each band is assigned 2 to 3 herders with 3 Border Collies and 3 guard dogs of either breed. Then they also what they call extras at the ranch as well as working ones because they house a few small bands at the ranch mostly older sheep or lame sheep. And we can't just get rid of the rest because these men are all they have ever known and they only respond to Castillon Spanish. 

The group has been around for about three months now but we have had the supporters for a long time. It's been a friend of a friend telling their friends and so on and it grew enough that we decided we needed to have an actual association. The Humane society has our backs 110% so we don't need to worry about vet bills or anything like that I've already worked it out with them. 

I feel like I'm debating here and we aren't getting anywhere. All I want to know is how a proper sheep ranch operates. One that follows all the rules and regulations. I only mentioned what I did so you would know why we are doing this and to give you an idea of what we don't want to do. I'm not attacking this rancher I'm simply stating that he is not following laws and these people and animals deserve better.


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## Southern by choice (Nov 24, 2015)

Lamb Lover said:


> I feel like I'm debating here and we aren't getting anywhere






Lamb Lover said:


> One that follows all the rules and regulations.





Lamb Lover said:


> I'm simply stating that he is not following laws and these people and animals deserve better



So far in your posts you have not stated ONE thing that says the owner is not.
What "rules and regulations" are you referring to?

This is where you are running into the "debate" aspect.  Everyone on this forum believes in caring well and humanely for their animals. Many here have a great deal of experience and although you have great passion so far there really isn't a great deal of factual information.

I understand you are asking for help in the management of a large scale operation and you are not getting the answers you'd hoped for. Simply put it cannot be laid out in several paragraphs. There is so much more information needed to actually be of help.

100 sheep, 400 sheep, 1000 sheep, 5000 sheep.... location, breed, purpose all of these things matter in your management.

*Lamb Lover I am not trying to criticize you, demean you, or put you down. Please know that.*

It is also not meant to discourage you but rather show you where you are. It would be quite different if you had years in the sheep business and saw things that were wrong, but where you are now I don't feel you have a real understanding of what is right or wrong in the situation. You still cannot even say what is “wrong” with the way the sheep are being managed.

So far... In May of this year you got your first sheep.

You were not quite clear on how to give them proper nutrition. What kind of supplementing etc.

How long to keep them on replacer etc.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/please-help-new-owner.31235/

You had lambs grinding teeth but in your words “there is nothing wrong with them”
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lambs-grinding-teeth.31242/

You claim the ewe was not nice because of where she came from...
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lambs-grinding-teeth.31242/#post-392569


This is a ridiculous notion. It was not her lamb and not all ewes will foster. Ewes will also reject a lamb they know will not thrive or if there is something wrong. You the human may not see anything wrong but the momma knows and best not to interfere. Most sheep are not in your lap like a puppy friendly. They are sheep... flighty and would rather people NOT touch on them all the time. Livestock is livestock... having a few sheep can be "pets". 

You saw a sore but didn't know what it was til a seasoned shepherd pointed out Soremouth.
http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lambs-grinding-teeth.31242/#post-392563

http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/lambs-grinding-teeth.31242/#post-393233


Shots as you mention are not required. Some do vaccinate some do not. 

I think the concern is more that people are feeling like
you are in way over your head and it is irresponsible of you to gather so many volunteers as well as their financial resources when you clearly are not qualified to take on such an undertaking.

*AGAIN this is not to criticize you. *

As far as the shepherds are concerned... if they are unhappy in their arrangement they can find other employment, return to their homeland, file a grievance etc.

What happens when you cannot pay them either? As it is clear you have no idea of the cost/financial responsibilities. What about their VISA's … what if they are not renewed and they leave? Who will care for said sheep?

Are you even aware of the dangers of a ram? You are going to have a bunch of other inexperienced volunteers and someone is going to get killed by a ram.

You mention shelter...  sheep don't need shelter and most states do not require shelter. Small scale farmers use them but most sheep won't go into shelter.

Please educate yourself first. Don't be like so many that “want to save the world” yet their good intentions do great harm because of ignorance. Many old timers have seen this play out many times... and sometimes those trying to do something good find themselves at the center of someone else that now feels about you and your operation the way you do about this current owner.
This is a reality. 

On a side note- you mention the LGD's that there are 50 on the current farm. For 4000 sheep that is not necessarily too many. Bossroo is wrong here when he says 10 will do the job.
The amount of land, the predation problem, as well as the # of livestock are all considerations as far as how many are needed. 

I think you are wise to contact the Universities, extension agents, and those that can help walk you through.

Remember all the volunteers you have now... some are in it for the "I have to save something" but they disappear and move onto the next thing they feel needs saving. IOW they will rally for the "cause" but not stick around for any actual "work". (Witnessed this many a times)

You are going to need a great deal of education on parasites, disease, parasite management, Scrapie, testing, lambing, shearing, external parasites , castration, mastitis, behavior , culling, meat safety, marketing, slaughterhouses... gosh the list is long.

Lamb Lover don't take what the posters, too include myself, say as an attack. Many of us have seen over the years people setting themselves up for failure and disaster... when we see that we do want to spare that person and the livestock as well... many will heed from those with experience, many won't.

Truth is many will start with livestock and within 3-5 years they will leave livestock.


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## Latestarter (Nov 24, 2015)

Again I'm confused here. Once again, you've made statements and don't back them up. What laws? What "rules and regs" are you referring to that he's not following? If that is indeed the case, the solution is so much simpler than what you're making it: report this (with documented evidence) to the proper authorities and you're done. If the Humane Society has your back on this, PAY THEM (donations) TO DO THE JOB THEY ARE TRAINED TO DO. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?

You say: "Ok first of all, this rancher doesn't talk to us and it's not like we go out and count each sheep."  Why doesn't he talk to you? You stated that you've been visiting and helping out at the ranch for two years? I wouldn't allow you on my property with what you're doing. Why don't you TALK TO HIM! Find out the truth before spreading all kind of negative allegations.

Followed by: "Second of all, he's selling them at an extremely fast rate so how are we supossed to keep up?" If he's selling off all his stock (sheep) so he can go into the cattle business, then what's your problem? He'll be done with the sheep and you won't have to worry about his "mistreatment" of them or the shepherds... the sheep will no longer exist, and the shepherds will no longer be employed or be needed. Problem solved. And then you state that he's going to "hire them back illegally" Why would he do this if he no longer has sheep and no longer needs them...

It sounds to me like you are using whatever manner there is at your disposal to become a sheep baron(ess) yourself... I mean you're trying to become what you're trying to eliminate? You want to buy him out; sheep, dogs, horses, etc. then hold them and sell them yourself later. But you stated you wanted to buy them for their wool. And you want to hire the shepherds away from him... So much of what you've "stated" so far is completely contradictory, or just doesn't fit together as a cohesive unit. It doesn't make sense. That's why I said I have so many questions... You sound like a PETA activist who wants to "save all the animals". Or a human rights activist who's "fighting to save the downtrodden". I mean, really?

This all started because you posted stating: 





Lamb Lover said:


> I know what vaccines the sheep need, how to bottle feed and help a ewe give birth, herd and all the other basics I just need to know how it works on a bigger scale.


 This is all fine when you own 2 or 3 sheep (pets really) in your backyard, that are not "owned for profit" and have no need to "support their own existence" or in other words, pay for themselves. You cover all the associated costs from other income or personal savings.

What you are proposing is a totally different animal altogether! You are asking: 





Lamb Lover said:


> So to get to the point, I was hoping you would be able to give me an idea of how to properly run a sheep ranch.


  True husbandry and management skills (at that level) are not going to be learned via forum threads. You are not going to learn how to run a sheep ranch here. You learn how to do what your asking through years of experience and training in the field and through proper schooling on a vast array of subjects, critical to the success of the job you intend to do. If you want to successfully run a sheep ranch, it can't be done like your backyard herd of 3 sheep. It will need to be done for profit (which you seem to have a serious issue with the existing rancher doing).

You stated: "He knows nothing about his business the herders do EVERYTHING and he would be nowhere without them. His father cared for them and kept everything in good condition." Well, you also stated you wanted to hire said herders, and if they are all that knowing and capable, you again have no problems. It's all just a matter of ownership name changes. I don't get any of this...

What are you asking for... really? Money? support? Support of what kind? If you have the Humane Society etc on your side, and your whole school (whatever that is/means), and your parent(s) and (her/your) friend(s), and even people from out of state, there must be SOMEONE in that bunch who have a ranching background... a management background... an animal husbandry background... not to mention (obviously) pretty deep pockets. You also intend to run a store front to sell "artworks" and whatever else. That brings with it another whole herd of necessary new skills and requirements. Who's going to run/manage/pay for/support that enterprise? Cause if you don't have $$ support there, THAT will need to be for profit as well! You can't be a philanthropist if you don't have the $$ to be one.



Lamb Lover said:


> I advocate for the animals and my mom and her friend advocate for the herders and we created an Association to help raise awareness and raise money to help this beautiful men and aniamls because they deserve so much better.


  As @Bossroo asked: 





Bossroo said:


> So what activist group are you a spokesman for ?????? What is the legal status of this group ????



Those are both very legitimate questions. What are your answers? 

Edit to add: What are the mission, vision, and guiding principles statement for your organization? What established entities have recognized your organization? Under what chapter of law was/is your organization founded?

Edit to add: Thank you Southern, for stating it in a much more PC way than I was able to. Same questions/concerns, different approach. Guess we were typing at the same time.

Edit to add: I have so many questions and there is so much contradiction, vagueness, that I could continue adding edits ad infinitum...


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## SheepGirl (Nov 27, 2015)

I really like this thread. As a business major and a sheep producer, I love answering questions like this. @Lamb Lover, you have received quite a bit of excellent advice. 

The number one thing to do is WRITE a business plan. This is not a one or two hour process. It may take upwards of a week, or even a month. Running a farm is not cheap, and neither is feeding that many sheep. With that many, you will NEED to run it as a business with profit (or at least breaking even) in mind.

I, like others, fail to see what is wrong with the situation at hand. It seems like you just want to purchase a few of these ewes you and the sheepherders have cared for for the past two years and start your own business as a rancher with essentially 'stealing' these sheepherders and offering them a new job with 'better' benefits.

Number one thing I would do is write out a budget. How many ewes are you looking at running? You said that there were 8000 ewes with 10000 lambs (millions of dollars a year? Doubt it unless you're talking gross profit... 10,000 lambs - 15% replacement rate = 8500 lambs x 90 lbs x $1.65/lb = ~$1.3 million.... subtract from that hay, wages, utilities, mortgage, taxes, food for the dogs, handling equip, etc etc ... that would be a 125% lambing rate. A family of four can get by on $58K/year based on my Google search. Do you really think a sheepherder's salary is worth $58K/year? What about your own salary? And how many sheepherders are you hiring?

Any more insight you can give as to your plans so we can help you?


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## Latestarter (Nov 27, 2015)

@SheepGirl  It would HAVE to be run/managed for a "profit" or there would be nothing to draw upon when "bad things" happen. There would have to be some sort of cushion to fall back on. Even non-profits have some "profit" (not CALLED that) that they hold back for operational contingencies... I think there's a lot more behind the scenes than what the OP expressed/revealed. Your post popped up while I was writing this, so I added this para at the top.

Look, I LOVE helping others. I generally go out of my way to do so. Especially if there's a compelling reason. But upon re-reading (over and over) trying to fathom what the OP is really doing/attempting from the scattered and somewhat misleading/confusing statements and revelations, I'm still more or less completely baffled. NONE of it makes any sense... It's difficult... no, impossible, to provide valid help/assistance/guidance when the person asking for such isn't completely upfront and honest about what they are trying to achieve/accomplish (and WHY!).

From all the info provided, the best rationalization I can come up with is that the OP feels the Peruvian herders have been "wronged" somehow: "I work with legal immigrant Peruvian sheep herders... I've worked with them for two years now and they're more like family to me."  (The only logical alternative is that the OP is trying to "steal" this ranch from the rightful owner for themselves via deceitful/illegitimate means...)

And therefore wants to "punish" the owner/rancher for his (perceived) misdeeds. "_...this is personal now_ thanks to the _irresponsible actions of the rancher_ and _I fully intend to bring justice to the men and animals._"  (So many INJUSTICES  have happened because of misguided efforts/affronts by well intentioned but misguided or illegitimate concerns. This is something that I despise and expose if possible.)

To do this, the OP is spreading allegations:

Of law breaking; "I'm simply stating that _he is not following laws_ and these people and animals deserve better."

Of rules and regulations not being obeyed/followed; "All I want to know is how a proper sheep ranch operates. _One that follows all the rules and regulations_."

Of ranch mismanagement; "This rancher makes millions of dollars each year (contradictory to the term mismanagement) I can assure you (the OP obviously has access to ranch financial documents?), yet _ he refuses to provide proper living conditions for animals and the herders, he refuses to provide proper vaccinations and care for the sheep, dogs and horses, he quit buying the herders food_... _They have 50 dogs because the rancher didn't have them fixed and they bred_..." Etc...

And slandering the owner: "He's an awful human" then states "I'm not attacking this rancher I'm simply stating..."

But has yet to provide any proof, examples, explanations, or ANY true basis for ANY of these statements/allegations!? And asks for/expects our help because he/she is asking for it.

The only thing I can come up with is that the OP is an (immature) school kid lashing out at something unknown or not understood, for perceived wrongs, with little to no comprehension of what would be required to achieve a/the stated/desired goal. It seems more of a personal vendetta. (I'm still not sure what the real goal is):

"...my entire school of almost 1,000 is on board..." What grade are you in anyway? The "entire" school? Yeah? Teachers and administration too? If all 1000 are on board, then how is it that "We have (only) more than 300 supporters at this point." Pretty big difference in numbers there...

"The Humane society has our backs 110% so we don't need to worry about vet bills or anything like that I've already worked it out with them." Really? What story line did you feed them? Who did you get this promise of complete support from? Do you have it in writing with specific care to be provided documented? You think the Humane Society is going to provide free vet care for your ranch? For 4000+ sheep? REALLY?! LMAO! They can barely afford to care for what they are already handling, let alone covering the cost of your little scam/dream/sheep "rescue"/ranch... That may be why they are always advertising for people to donate/contribute money to them!  That's where their money comes from.

"Also, we have the ability to apply for grants to purchase this land..." I'm just a layman here and have questions that you refuse to/can't/avoid answering. How many grants have you applied for and received to date? Grant givers don't just "give away" money because you feel you need it. You're going to need to meet grant requirements and provide DOCUMENTED PROOF. And you'll need to PROVIDE answers, not more diatribes... And most importantly, grants don't happen over night... some take years to attain. You can apply for grants all day, but that doesn't mean you'll get one.

"...not to mention the facts that the cost is being split between at least two groups of people..." OK, that's nice because those "facts" WEREN'T mentioned... how were any of us to know that? Oh, and just so you're aware, any time multiple/different groups are involved, "team" concepts can be lost causing all sorts of problems between groups down the road. Differences of opinion, miscommunications, changing or altered goals... Be aware, be prepared.

"...We are completely capable of purchasing the land and building the houses..." Then why are you talking about grants? and WHO is capable of purchasing the land? Who or what name will be on the deed? Who will own this land? Where is the money coming from (cash?) or where is the financing coming from? Very difficult (OK, impossible) for a new group to get a loan for ANY reason as the group has no established history or background for a lender to determine credit worthiness. NO lender will give your group money just because you feel you deserve it. As for building these houses and facilities? Who is "we"? Your parents? All of these other school kids? The teachers? Who is going to decide/determine what buildings will be required and what sizes will be needed? Are you sure that it is even legal to build on this 40 acres of land that you've found? Is it legal to build multiple residences and multi-family residences (owners/herders/ranch hands/foreman/etc)? Who is going to apply for the permits and all that's associated with building? Where will the water come from? Well or city? Who's paying for the water tap, if you can even get one? What about sewerage/animal waste? You have licensed contractors for Construction? Plumbing? Electrical? and they are all working for free? What about the actual building materials? Concrete/lumber/plumbing/electrical/the list goes on....

"...and everybody involved owns a truck and at least one stock trailer." You think all these people (everybody) are going to be there every day with their trucks and trailers to run/operate this ranch? You'll simply contact all these people and they'll be there when these animals need to be moved?   You're going to move 4000 plus animals with pickup trucks and stock trailers? REALLY?!  At least 4 times a year, possibly many more? LMAO... again... How about ranch equipment like tractors? Bucket loaders/backhoes? Hay handling equipment?

"...As for grazing the only time they would be at home base is during shearing and lambing. We also have family with more than 100 acres that are willing to let us graze there..."  The (shearing and) lambing process is going to last over a 3-4 month period, possibly longer. If they'll be on the "home base" during that time, they will need to be fed. Those 40 acres where all your housing and birthing facilities are will only support food/grazing for that herd size for a few days. It will be 40 acres of mud/desert in a week's time. And the 100 acres plus you talked about is only good for a few days as well. And since it will have no facilities, you'll need to move the sheep back and forth after lambing and then monitor/care for/control all these animals at multiple locations. What you are implying as possible, is a nightmare in the making!

"...The foreman applies for all the grazing rights and has memorized the paths they take when they're out on the range..." It doesn't matter who "applies" for the rights... they have to be PAID FOR, and I assure you, the foreman doesn't do that! As for memorizing the paths... the foreman is responsible for running/managing the ranch & employees, not for being out with the sheep on the range... that's the herder's responsibility.  The herding dogs help move the sheep at the bidding of the herders and the guardian dogs protect the sheep, collies and shepherds from wolves, coyotes, bears, lions, etc., and thieves.

As I stated in a previous post, it takes YEARS of experience and training to run a large ranch operation, be it sheep, cattle or whatever else. What you are proposing/asking for here is not feasible and with the info you've provided, is sheer lunacy (or an outright lie). Either way, I have wasted too much energy and time trying to address this... Sorry.


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## Lamb Lover (Nov 29, 2015)

@Southern by choice thank you for your help I know this is confusing. We run into that a lot. Unless you've been with the operation and you've talked to the people it's really hard to follow even for those of us who are there because so much happens. Ve had more experience since then, the lambs are about 8 months old now and doing much better I'm happy to say.

As for you @Latestarter I would gladly appreciate it if you would stop acting like a know it all and leave me alone. You have done nothing but aggrivate me so please stop talking. Thanks. I'm not nor have I ever been with PETA. No i don't have all the facts because guess what this is a big operation with a lot of things happening. This ranch is an hour away from us and we obviously can't go out every day, plus for most of us there is a language barrier. We cant be thete every minuye of the day to know every detail. The rancher keeps to himself and literally only comes out to make himself look like a perfect little angel. As for the whole why would he hire them illegally, he's already bred the ewes and decided to keep them until September of next year so he can profit from shearing and lambing. After that he plans to further his cattle business and sell the remaining sheep which is just fine with me because then we don't have to have anything more to do with him. We don't move the sheep in stock trailers they walk everywhere. There are specific routes each herder knows in different parts of the state and they all come back to the ranch at the same time of year. I'm also aware the foreman doesn't pay for it himself the rancher gives him the money he needs for each grazing right. Everything you've said is obvious, I'm not stupid and I'm not lying thank you very much.

@SheepGirl that would defiantly be a good thing to do right now. We have a lot of ideas going and not much organization which is something I've mentioned to our leaders before. I don't agree with the term stealing however. Like I said these herders are like family now and we just wish they had better living conditions  and wages. None of this is for my own benefit though I realize now it sounds like it. I'm just an extremely passonaite person especially when it comes to this so I apologize  for the confusion. I tend to get carried away.

There are fifteen herders, three have gone back to Peru this month and one doesn't want to come back so that leaves us with fourteen. All of them are welcome but obviously the only ones who will come are the ones who want to stay here in America so I'm not sure how many there would be. Four for sure, the foreman, the camp tender, and two regular herders.

One thing we are wondering about is obviously how much land we actually need for this. We did some research and saw that a sheep eats about four pounds of hay a day, that could be wrong, but let's say we have fifty sheep, how much space does each sheep need? Or to make it easier how much room does a flock of that size need so we can put it into perspective. Also, if we were to give vaccinations which ones should be given or are most beneficial? What medications should we have on hand? Just simple things like that to start with please. Thank you so much for your help!

So let me clarify a little bit, I got caught up and like I said passionate and just carried away so I realize now I've failed to actually explain any of this. My mom went back to school a few years ago to become a nurse and in doing so met the herders through her professor who is from Peru. They went out to work with the men. I got involved because of the animals. I wanted to see the veterinary aspect of it and of course just be around sheep and dogs and horses because I honestly like ani,as better than people. I fell in love with the aniamls and the herders too, along with family and friends. So now we go out and and help the herders and supply them with clothes and food and things like that. We knew something strange was going on because the owner just didn't act right. His father had recently handed over the operation to him so he was in a post on of leadership he had never been in before. We brushed it off thinking he's new at this it's fine. But things never changed they just seemed to get worse. He would constantly yell at the herders for no reason, blame things on them for no reason, he was just becoming a very agressive person and we didn't know why. We sat down with the foreman one day and come to find out the rancher had been killing dogs and sheep whenever he pleased. A dog got in his way, he'd shoot it, a sheep got out, he'd shoot it, any reason he could find to kill it he would. We also found out that during the winter he was starving the sheep. We knew about the unfair wages, the illegal hiring, the mistreatment, he stopped buying them food, he didn't supply them with medical care, simple rights were taken away from man and animal just because he felt like it. At this point we had gathered enough supporters to start the association and take action. We had never planned on actually buying the sheep and bring the guys or any of that when we first started be we came to the realization that not only did we love all of them with all our hearts, but they deserved better and we had learned so much from them that the least we could do was give back. We just decided to do it the extremely complicated way haha. I'm not in charge of the association and a few of the facts are unclear on my part because of this. They give me assignments and I gather information. You are all a very big help and I knew this website was a great resource. I hope that helps clear things up a bit and again I apologize for everything before I need to work on my communication and when to hold my tongue. I know that this seems impossible and I sound like somebody who is in way over her head with no experience. I have a bit but lie you've all said it will take time but I have people to help me. Thank you again!


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## Latestarter (Nov 29, 2015)

Contrary to acting like a know it all, I don't know anything! I've repeatedly said as much. I have been seeking information. as you've shared NO FACTS at all, including in your above post. It's all "he said she said" and more contradictory info from you, once again. I have not called you stupid. I have not called you a liar... but have stated that it was a possibility, because everything that you've shared does not add up. I believe you are young, confused, and misguided. I think your "association" is a scam and is sticking its nose in somebody elses business, with personal gain in mind. Justify what you are doing however you like. I have asked questions to no avail and stated my concerns and will gladly back out of this thread. I would say I wish you luck, but that would be a lie. People like you hate people like me because we ask hard questions that you don't want asked and don't want to answer.


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## norseofcourse (Nov 29, 2015)

@Lamb Lover - it's nice that you're getting involved and wanting to help these herders and the sheep.  I think you're finding out that it's a very complicated issue with more questions than answers!  But we are trying to help.

I'm glad you realized you got a bit carried away in your initial postings, and were a bit unclear.  A lot of communication is non-verbal, and we lose that when writing.  Plus, everyone has their own writing style, and things don't always come across as they are meant.  This can be true both of posts from you, and posts to you.

Latestarter is not trying to aggrivate you.  Along with being a bit skeptical, he's asking a lot of questions and playing devil's advocate.  Belive it or not, you need that, and a lot of it.  It's much, much easier to answer questions and work things out at this stage of the game, than to wait till you have 1000 sheep on 40 acres, multiple issues to deal with all at the same time, and you start thinking, "Why didn't we think of this?"

If you start applying for grants, funding, loans, and donations, you'll get asked those same questions - and more.  And you'll need to have ready answers, and good, well-thought out, researched answers, that can be backed up with facts and figures - part of that business plan Sheepgirl talks about.  If you are vague, or defensive, or say anything that implies accusations without the proof to back it up (and if you had the proof why did you not go to the authorities, they will ask), you will lose credibility, not to mention funding sources.

I urge you to re-read latestarter's posts (and the others) - ignore the tone, concentrate on the questions.  Work on more concrete answers:  for example grazing.  Not just 'the foreman applies for grazing rights' - do you know the exact process of applying?  What government agency?  Can you be certain of getting those grazing rights?  Can the rancher keep his grazing rights for the cattle he wants to get?  If he keeps them, can you still get grazing rights or will you go on a waiting list?  How long is the waiting list?  You can't just rely on the foreman knowing the process - people higher up in your group need to be aware of it, too, to avoid unpleasant surprises, such as the foreman coming to you and 1000 sheep and saying 'sorry, we didn't get the grazing rights'.

As to "how do you run a ranch"?  No one can give you step by step instructions.  The best we can do is give you lots of questions - regarding all kinds of facets of ranching that you will need to consider, and figure out, before leaping into this grand plan.  We can't give you very many answers, because my answers will differ from your answers.  A ranch here in Ohio would be run quite differently from one out west - some things will be similar, but you have issues I would never even think about, like water rights and grazing rights.  You have different soil, plant species, weather, carrying capacity of the land.  Other variables I am not even aware of, having never been out west, let alone to a sheep ranch out west.

I did ask a friend about hay usage, since you said you read 4 pounds of hay per day per sheep.  Hay usage will depend on a lot of things - hay quality, method of feeding, nutritional needs of the sheep, weather, among others.  The others are right that 40 acres will get eaten down fast.  When her sheep cannot get to pasture, my friend goes through 2 600-pound round bales of hay, in two days, for about 65 sheep.  The math makes that out to 9.2 pounds of hay per sheep per day.

I then estimated my sheep's hay usage (guessing on the bale weight, since I haven't weighed one).  My 5 sheep currently go through a bale of hay in 3 days, but they still have some pasture.  Estimating a bale at 50 pounds, my sheep eat about 3.3 pounds per day (well, they don't eat it all, some is wasted).  Once winter really hits, a bale will last about 2 days, making it 5 pounds of hay per day per sheep.

Mine use less hay than my friends for several reasons:  My sheep are a slightly smaller breed (what is the breed of the sheep you're considering?  What is their average adult weight?).  I also feed inside, from a hay feeder I built based on Premier1's design, that really cuts down on wasted hay (will you be feeding round bales or square?  Inside or outside?  Under roof or not?  From a feeder, or just on the ground?  Feeders and roofs will mean less wasted hay, but are expensive to buy or build).  If you have a lot of sheep, you need enough feeders or round bales at a time so that all the animals have an opportunity to eat, not just the ones that can push their way to the food.  My friend feeds two round bales at a time to her sheep - not so that they last two days, but because 65 sheep won't fit around one round bale and all be able to eat!

Whew - that's just hay - and not even all the details you'll need to think about, just about hay.  How much will you need?  Have you spoken to any hay suppliers to get an idea of availability, costs, quality?  You say the sheep will be on the 'home range' for 4 to 5 months (March to mid-July, from your post), you'll need hay for them.  You'll also need someplace to store that hay, as weather and sunlight will ruin hay quickly.  And a tractor or skidloader with a hay spear to move the hay where you need it (make sure when you build your fences and gates, that the gates are wide enough for any and all equipment to get through, too).

From reading your posts, it looks like you may be backing down on the number of sheep you're thinking about getting.  I'm not clear if the sheep will be just for wool, or wool and market lambs.  That needs to be part of your business plan.  For wool, determine the average fleece weight for that breed (we can help you look that up if you can find out the breed).  The USDA posts current wool prices, although many are listed by micron size (do you know how to get wool micron tested?).  You can get a ballpark figure of wool value per sheep - then minus the cost of the shearing (shearers, skirters, sheep handlers), bagging the wool, and shipping.  Does your area have a wool pool to help you sell the wool?  Does your state have a wool check-off you'll have to pay?  You may find wool brings a lot less than you'd think.  Wool prices are way down, and unless these sheep are fine wool Merino, the wool might barely cover the costs to shear, if that.

Estimating income from market lambs might be a bit easier.  The shepherds might be able to give you rough estimates of lambing percentages.  You can check local auctions for average prices of lambs the size you'll send to market.  From those figures you can get an idea of how much lamb each ewe raises, and how much money per year she will make for you.

So why are you doing all this math?  Well, it's a matter of scale.  50 ewes will probably not generate enough net income to employ 4 of the Peruvian shepherds.  You need to figure out how many sheep it would take to make enough profit to hire those 4 - or however many of the 14 shepherds you are planning to hire/support.  Each ewe will not net you all that much income, after accounting for expenses for feed, supplements, medical care, electricity, water, grazing fees, facility maintenance, fuel, sales commissions, check-off fees, taxes, insurance, and other stuff I'm likely forgetting.  And those are the ongoing expenses - there's also the up-front capital expenses for land, fencing, buildings, and equipment (yes, donations and volunteers will help, but you need to write a business plan to be a viable operation.  If you want to count donations, determine a *reachable* yearly donation goal and figure that into your business plan, too).

I know I'm leaving a ton of stuff out.  Much of it has been mentioned by the others.  Go to your county extension office - tell them you are writing a business plan for a sheep ranch and listen to their advice.  A CPA who knows farming/ranching (and nonprofit) is also great advice - there is a lot of paperwork and you don't want to miss any.  And they can also tell you what records to keep, so when tax and reporting time comes around, it'll go much more smoothly.

And finally (because this is getting so long), I know you're all fired up about saving these sheepherders and all the animals, but maybe you could explore other alternatives as well.  Surely there are other sheep ranches in your state - maybe network with them and you might find one or two who would be willing to hire some of the sheepherders.  You can still stay in touch with them, and work on supporting and marketing their artwork - which might turn out to be a better way to help them become more self-sufficient.  Do some thinking outside the box, and you may come up with other ideas, too.

Good luck.


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## Bossroo (Nov 30, 2015)

Lamblover...  What I can gleen from your postings smacks very much what happened to a fellow arabian horse breeder about 8 years ago in N Ohio.  She was newly divorced, owned over 60 National top show horses, she baught a horse ranch, hired a forman, trainer, and farm laborors.  She movedin her ederly , frail mother so that she could care for her daily. A few months later, her sister fell ill to cancer , so she took her in .  So the "help" became lazy and didn't take care of the horses or ranch as they were hired to do.  The traner quit, followed by the forman.  The farm laborors didn't do anything unless they were directly told to ,but in slow motion.  She became overwelmelmed so she asked for help ...good hearted people soon came to clean stalls, baught hay on her account, etc. . Soon this help became spoty at best, so the local "humane society " got involved and accused her of animal cruelty.  The decended onto her ranch in droves with trucks and trailers to seize all of her horses and transport the best horses to their own ranches and the rest to the County Fairgrounds.  Then they started to present her with feed, housing, Vet.care, farrior, transportation costs for the seized horses.  Then the " do gooders" filed a law suit in  a jurisdiction where the local judge was one of the animal rights sympathysers.  This poor lady was soon overwhelmed with more and more bills from lawyers as well as more bills from the " do gooders".  She lost her ranch and horses and ended up in a mental breakdown.  The " do gooders" ended up with top National show horses and the local humane society ended up with her property.  Look it up in Court Records in N Ohio.  If I were you , I would ask some hard questions of those that run your association as well as some hard questions from the gentleman that owns the ranch and sheep as person to person without any accusasions to seperate the true facts from fiction that we see here.  You could easily end up in a slander lawsuit if you blidly follow the " association" piper.  By the way, once again ... IDENTIFY this " association " and any relationshiop to a animal rights group, as well as it's legal status.


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## Lamb Lover (Dec 1, 2015)

@norseofcourse thank you those are all very good points that I'm working on. I met with the leader Sunday night and we discussed a few things but we didn't have much time and she's currently working on a few things as we speak. (She's a dreamer so we don't always have everything in order.) I will defiantly get with her ASAP however and make a list of the things you mentioned so we can get cracking. I know there is a lot being left out on my part and I'm sorry but like I said I can't be at the ranch 24/7. I'll try my best to gather more information for you all so it makes more sense hopefully. It's a lot to take in and a lot of stress on my end unfortunately. 

We have talked to another rancher in the area who also has Peruvian herders and he treats them like roalty. He also offered to house my personal sheep until I could get their pen set up which was very kind of him. I plan on getting in touch with him and seeing what he thinks we should do and get a few tips. As for the art, two who went back to Peru will be back here in about three months now and they will bring all the art they made as well as instructions on how to die wool and other things they do in Peru that would be beneficial if we continue to do fundraising. 

I'm having a meeting soon with our leader and a few major organizations interested in what we are doing soon so I'll see if they have any ideas or ways to assist us with creating a yearly goal. I'm also going to be getting in touch with the Humane society soon to see what their game plan is for other medical procedures  on other dogs. They recently operated on two and I watched both operations to insure the dogs were fine. I personally know all the vets and staff and I'm organizing a day spa for the dogs and horses in the spring to clean them all up and get them check ups which the Humane society actually offered to set up and fund. I have long term things figured out I can assure you, it's just things right now are all over the place. 

We know somebody who sells hay and it's not too expensive, square bales. I can get in touch with them as well and see if they can give me an estimate on prices and quality. As for feeders I'm not sure how we would set that up because as of right now the herders drive a tractor and trailer or a hay truck into the fields when the sheep are at the ranch and toss bales off. They all seem to get their fill and they have plenty of grass to eat so I think for right now that way is fine but I think we would change that if we can accomplish this goal. 

@Bossroo I think I heard about that and I undertake where you're coming from. Majority of us are friends and family so I don't think anything that bad would happen, not saying it won't but I think with these people there is a slim chance. I will defiantly keep an eye out for anything strange though. I will send the leader an email tonight and get with her as soon as I can to give you all an update and some better information. Thank you all for your help I really do appreciate it. Sorry about everything before. I'll keep an open mind and let you know what happens!


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## Lamb Lover (Dec 1, 2015)

Forgot to mention that these sheep are for wool and the lambs are going to market. The lambs being sold are a Suffolk cross. The wool sheep are white but that doesn't narrow it down. Not even the herders are sure of the breed so I'll try my best to find out. I've actually been looking for a while now comparing them and I think I have a few narrowed down. I'll let you know when I find out.


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## Lamb Lover (Dec 1, 2015)

So update, I just met with the leader and I have to have a 144 page legal H2A visa document read by this weekend. It's an updated regulation document and I was told to find key points so we are following all the rules and we know everything we can so we don't break any laws. 

Also, we will be meeting with the foreman this weekend hopefully to discuss everything. (Herders have been moved and he is know taking care of everybody and a whole band by himself and literally not even sleeping.) But he's been doing this for more than forty years so he knows where all the best grazing land is, how many acres we need for the ranch, what to feed, all that. 

We do know of another potential ranch. The people had already considered selling it to the leader before all this and it has houses and barns and all that on site. We are also making a business plan as soon as we meet with the foreman. 

After we get all of our ducks in a row I'll tell you what we have gathered and ask for your opinions and ideas because I value them since you all know more than I do in this particular area. 

Thanks again and I'll talk with you soon.


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## Bossroo (Dec 2, 2015)

The best advise that I would give you is to stay as far away as you can get from any "humane society" or any other group that is similar. I have seen and heard of their workings too many times to even consider contacting them for their " assistance" as every one of their human "clients" end up the big loosers.  I have 2 good friends who worked for a "humane society " in S. Cal. for about a year.  When they started to ask some serious questions about the societies' management and money matters, they where then became persona -non- grata and accused of all types of neglect, pilfering funds, etc. ... all of the questions that they started to question was suddnely their fault.  They were fired and when they applied for other jobs and stated that they had worked there for the past year ... they got HORRIBLE reviews and all of the society's wowes were their fault. You are young and passionate with a good heart, but you are being led down a yellow brick road.  Open up your eyes and ask some very serious questions of the leadership of your group that you have yet to identify.  WHY ???    That is a RED FLAG right there !!! Why haven't you contacted the rancher to have a serious face to face non- confrontational meeting with him to get his point of view of this situation ?


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## Baymule (Dec 2, 2015)

Anything to do with any "Humane" society, I would stay far, far away from. All the "poor mistreated animals--SEND MONEY" ads on TV make me retch. It is a money making racket under the banner of "Save the animals". In Texas, there is no recourse, meaning if the SPCA swoops down upon you and steals, yes I said STEALS your animals, you don't get them back. Then the SPCA "rehabilitates" your animals, paid for by bleeding heart donations from the ignorant, and sells them for a tidy profit. But wait! It is a non profit, so better give the paid administrators a RAISE!. Gag a maggot.


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## Lamb Lover (Dec 2, 2015)

@Bossroo yeah I know but one lady I know is different she's very interested and wants to help so I think I'll stick to her. The reason why I haven't mentioned it is because we havent decided on a name yet we will decide this weekend when we have everyone together.

@Baymule aren't they awful? I hate it. If you're going to put an ad of tv actually donate the money I mean really. It makes me upset that they don't help them as much as they should be. Poor animals. That's hey I'm doing this, because I can help and I hate to see animals suffering.


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## Bossroo (Dec 29, 2015)

Well, it's been since  Dec 2,'15 since lamb lover posted on this forum.   She eather ran into some rather stiff resistance from the wicked rancher and couldn't get anywhere.  Also, our membership saw their modus operendi and asked some pointed questions that the poster couldn't or would't answer and moved on to a more uninformed site.   Or found an easier more vulnerable victim to attack to get their animals and / or property in the name of animal cruelty liberation and enlisted some other weaker minded people to donate money to help their cause.


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## Lamb Lover (Jan 13, 2016)

@Bossroo I'm sorry I've been very busy. I had to plan some Christmas events and I had family visiting for some time. One of the sheep dogs also went missing and I've been running myself into the ground trying to find him, and I've had no luck. We haven't been out to the ranch since December 19th and the rancher was not there so I couldn't have talked to him if I wanted too. I did find out though that we have been given permission by him to go out to the ranch and do things with the herders as long as we tell him what days which we have been doing. He said he's fine with it because by improving their mental health they will be more productive and with shearing and lambing coming up good mental health will be important. 

I haven't asked anybody to donate money. I had one friend donate a few dollars because he wanted to contribute which was very kind of him. We have a group that does community service and they were very interested so they got bags and bags of clothes for the herders which is great and I'm very thankful for their help. As of right now we are simply working on smaller goals for the organization and herders the previous questions I asked have been worked out and set aside. We have to get these smaller things out of the way before we can work on the big things. 

I have been talking to some of the herders on a regular basis now and I've gathered some information. There are currently 5,750 ewes out on the range right now. There are 70 ewes at the ranch and almost all are expecting. Lambing usually starts in April with this operation, shearing is in mid March and I have participated in both. We are improving the way the feed bummers because they usually fill an old Pepsi bottle with formula and put a nipple on it, then walk about two miles down to the lambing sheds and feed. One bottle gets through about two or three lambs and then they have to walk back. So, I came up with a few ideas and we settled on one. We will be buying actual bottles, and a large backpack so whoever is feeding that day will just have to fill them up, put them in the pack and walk down. We also want to make a prototype for something I saw being done with goats which would make things a lot easier on the guys. 

As of right now we don't have much going on due to weather and where the sheep are but I think I'll be going out this weekend to drop off some food and supplies. I can give you an update then if you still wish to hear about this now that we have things worked out.


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