# Looking for some advise



## Mike Fronczak (Apr 21, 2012)

At the end of January we bought two heifers and a small young bull ((about 14 months).  They were supposed to be Highlands, no papers though.  We introduced them to our existing herd of Highlands, they were the younger cows so they were low on the pecking order.  In march one of the heifers went down, we called the vet, turns out she was pregnant, way too young, between being little, pregnant, & low on the pecking order it had been too much for her.  Vet said chances were the other cow was pregnant as well, gave her about 20% of making it through birthing, basically said send her to the freezer, I separated her and the young bull off in a separate pasture, de-wormed twice & started graining them.  The bull is looking real good, it was raining today so I was able to get a better idea of her condition, she still looks way thin, I'm planning on sending her to the freezer in 3-4 weeks, I want to get more weight on her.  Do I separate her off from the bull & grain her even more ? Kinda at a loss as to what more I can do to get her up.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 21, 2012)

That's really too bad about the heifer.  How old were the heifers when you bought them, where they 14 months as well, or was it just the bull?

And, if I read you write, you separated the heifer and the bull from the main herd to a separate pen together?  Why not separating the heifer from the bull, or is the bull also suffering from being lower on the totem pole from the main herd?

And how far along do you think the other heifer is?  Can't you give her something to abort her calf instead of having to spend money on grain to fatten her up for slaughter?

Also, (sorry for all the questions), what did you do with the other heifer? I assumed you had to put her down because she couldn't get up again?

Again, sorry for all the questions, but we just need a bit more information than what you already gave us so we can give you some advice. 


ETA: I think, what you should've done was not send the heifers and bull to the main herd right away, but separate them for a couple weeks before putting them with the herd.  But other than that I don't know what else to say since there seems to be some unknowns here...


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## jhm47 (Apr 21, 2012)

"She still looks way thin".  

Why would you want to butcher any animal that looks "way thin"?  There are many things that could be wrong with her, and I'd find out what really is causing her to be thin before butchering her (infections, parasites, etc.)  As to your vet-------why didn't he do a preg check to see if she's indeed pregnant?  And if she is, she could have been aborted if she's as small as you say.  This would give her enough time to grow a little and become large enough to carry a calf to term if that's what you want.  Contact a different vet.


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## Mike Fronczak (Apr 21, 2012)

Answsers to the questions.
The bull seems to do ok with the herd, he is small but holds his own with the steer that is with the cows.  Today I had them all together briefly, and the steer and him we pushing each other around, playing, right next to each other made it difficult to separate him back off.  His conditioning wasn't the best when we got him, but he is looking real good now.  The first heifer past on, the vet did what he could for her, next morning she had past, she was to far along to do an abortion, he said.  He was making educated guesses with regard to the one that has made it so far, assuming they were both exposed to a bull about the same time by the previous owner.  All he does is cattle so I have to trust his judgement.  I kept the bull with her for two reasons, first being that cattle are herd animals I didn't want her to be by herself, second I wanted to keep a closer eye on him.  He gas definitely put on some weight, with the grain.  Our herd is mainly on free choice grass/hay.  That was what the previous owner of the original herd had done we justinknow  followed pace, I don't know what the owner of the 3 we got in January fed.  I know she is going to be thin as the majority of the nutrients are going to the calf, combine with the fact I think she has some dairy breed in her.  A friend that's family raises beef cattle suggested mixing goat milk in with her grain, or a milk supplement, he is checking with his mom for other ideas as well.


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## redtailgal (Apr 21, 2012)

Whats done is done, dont dwell on it, but do understand that it's better to have a heifer by herself, than one bred too young.

I do want to correct you on a few things.  A bred cow does not get thin because the nutrients are going to the calf, a bred cow gets thin because she isnt getting enough to eat.  A healthy dairy cow is not thin either, even when they are in milk.  They do have a different body make up, causing the hip bones to jut out, but a well fed dairy cow will and should have some fat reserve, just like a beef cow.

Adding any kind of milk to her diet is NOT a good idea.  She will develope scours, and/or bloat, and if she is already in poor condition, these will likely kill her.  I work with a vet, and I've seen a number of cattle die from this.  it's just not a good idea.  Grown cattle just dont digest milk at all, and the runny poop that will come with it will likely waste the feed already in her.

If she is way thin, you wont get meat on her that fast.

I also agree that you need to make sure that she doesnt have parasites before processing her for meat.  

If you intend to eat her, then she is worth putting a few dollars into, because when you eat her, her health will become YOUR health.

I would.......

run a fecal to check for parasites, and worm accordingly.

Once she is wormed, I would start adding a good grain, perferably a grower grain to her diet.  You'll need to start her out easy, just a little at first, and then build on it a little each day, until she is eating a couple pounds  of grain a day.  To really help her gain weight, you can add some "calf manna" to her grain, they are pellets that you can usually find in a feed store.  You'll also want to make sure that she has 24/7 access to the best quality hay that you can give her, and free access to grazeland.

And also, I wonder about your vet.  It's never too late to abort a pregnancy, if you dont consider the morality of it.  Early in the pregnancy, the fetus slips and is born a bloody glob, but later, you'll have a formed dead calf, even later you'll have a preemie that may live a little while then die.  It can be done very late in the pregnancy, I've seen it done.  It's not pretty, but it did save the cow.  It's a personal moral call, and one that I wont question with you.  You'll have to do what is right for your farm, but I wanted to make sure that you knew your options here.

Seriously, dont kill and eat an unhealthy cow.  The meat will be tough and not fit to eat, not to mention unhealthy for you and your family.  Take some time, get her weight up, let her carry the calf a little longer if you need to.  For that matter, you can feed her up and then take her down shortly before she calves if you need to.


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## BrownSheep (Apr 21, 2012)

There actually a lot of beef producers that still manage to get calves out of cows that go down.  They lose the cow of course but they generally at least get the calf. They use a sling and a tractor to keep the cow up a portion of he day until the cow starts to calve. They usually have to help wih calving and generally loose the cow. A family friend had a 30 year old cow down this year. She calved without assistance and actually lived for a day or two afterwards.


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## Mike Fronczak (Apr 21, 2012)

Redrailgal, as you mentioned what's done is done, I wouldn't of exposed her to a bull at such a young age.  The guy I bought her from said " they might be pregnant", kinda after the fact.  My bull is still young, I don't believe that he could have impregnated them.  The vet did check the one that pasted for parasites, she had worms, so I have de-worked her and the bull we bought with her twice for parasites (using two different products), & intend to do so a third time 2-3 weeks before slaughter (as per manufacturer recommendation), the rest of the herd just got done once.  
  As far as the abortion issue the vet basically from my understanding with the cow that past felt he would not be able to get the fetus out with out a C section, he did mention this but said it basilly wouldnt be money well spent.  As far as her condition I should have been more clear, compared to our pure Highlands (registered) she looks skinny I do believe she isn't a pure highland and has some dairy cow in her, they tend to have a different look as opposed to a beef cow (we raised two jersey steers last year), I don't believe she is unhealthy (her eyes are clear, her nose isn't running, nothing else obvious other than her hooves curling up but it doesn't seem to affect her), just want see more weight on her.  She has been on grain since mid march, the bull has definitely filled out better than she has, but again he appears to be a pure highland (from looks alone), whereas she has a longer snout, larger ears & longer legs. She is actually more aggressive with the feed than he is, she sees me and comes running.  Currently I'm feeding the two of them about a 5 gallon bucket full a day (1/2 morning, 1/2 evening), that amout is total not per each (grain is sweet feed 12% protein) free choice hay & pasture.  I dont know if by increaseing the grain it will do anything or if she will just pass it through.  Thank you for the info on the milk causing scours.


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## WildRoseBeef (Apr 22, 2012)

There are a couple questions you didn't answer that I asked.

1) How old is the heifer?  Is she the same age as the bull or not?

2) How far along is the heifer in her pregnancy?  5 months, 8 months, what? Or do you even have an idea?


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## redtailgal (Apr 22, 2012)

Ahh, I see more clearly now.  Thank you for your explanation.  I thought she was poorly as in bad health, but I see that you are just wanting to fatten her up.  

Those dairy crosses will fool you for sure, lol.  They just dont get that nice meaty look and some of them just look thin all the time.  However, I've found that the diary crosses often yield some pretty good meat.

I also see your point on the abortion.  If she is so far along that she couldnt pass the calf, your sorta stuck ( sorry, no pun intended).  C-sections are too costly for a mixed breed "just a cow" cow (aka not a pet, lol).  I'd keep what you are doing, but I'd really consider a bag a calf manna for her, I think it will put a little extra on her.

Be careful not to pack too much weight on her, though.  At this point, she'd likely be gaining mostly fat......which will be trimmed off anyway, esp if you sent her out for slaughter.  If you over do, it would be the same as throwing feed in the trash bin.

I helped someone else slaughter a bred cow once.  She was about a month out from her due date and broke her leg in a storm.  We also processed what little bit of meat their was on her calf.  It was VERY good meat.  Maybe you arent comfortable with that, and thats understandable, but I just wanted to throw that out there for you to consider.

As for bulls......the saying around here is "if they can reach it, they will get it pregnant", lol.  ANYTHING not castrated is pulled at four months usually, but we have had to pull some bull calves early if they are too "froggy" with the ladies.

I wish you well with her.  I hope that in the confusion, I was able to offer a little bit of help. (seriously try the calf manna, I gain a pound every time I touch it, lol)


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## Mike Fronczak (Apr 22, 2012)

I am going to try the calf mana, going to TSC this morning.  Judging the condition of the animals is tough as you said with crosses, add the hair from a   it is even more difficult, I have to look at behavior as well.  For instance the cow that is gone I had thought something was up with her, I discussed her with my wifes uncle who has raised livestock, my gut said to separate her off and grain her, keep an eye on her, she was always off by herself in one corner of the pasture, he said not to encourage the behavior, leave her be.  Either way I probably would of lost her, either sooner as I did, or at that point it would gave been in birthing a calf she was to small to birth.  It's tough because the herds definitely have a pecking order for instance yesterday when they got mixed together, the small cow went over near the round bale holder, the bigger cows immediately ran her off, but the bull was fine mixed in with them.  She was easy to get back in her pasture, he took probably 1/2 hour of messing with because he was happy with the herd.  They still all hang by the common fence very often.
  Wild rose these cows I would guess are a year and a half (I was told), but that is all I have to go on. Size wise though they are small, vet estimated the one that passed at about 650 lbs, in good condition she should of been 700 lbs.  As to how far along he put them due in June or so,nmy plan is a mid may trip, to give myself a safty window.  The bull is even smaller, for size comparing he was in with the herd yesterday he is smaller than the steer (shorter, I would guess he weighs the same) that was born in August.  I don't know why these 3 were so small, at this point I will be happy to see her go, hope is the bull will do his job in a couple months.  First calves from the others from the others should be on the ground soon, they are 4-6 years old and all have birthed previously.  The plan is the separate off the steer and bull for a couple months after calves are nor to allow the cows time to "clean out", so they don't get impregnated right away, so I was happy the see the two of them getting along.
It has been a learning experience for sure.  I learned to know who and what your buying.  The guy we bought the first 3 cows and steer from raised registered highlands, was in his mid 60's, originally had a herd of 70 or so, be was selling off his herd because he had completely blown out his ankle, not a lie I watched him put on his boot, walked with a cane, etc., I believe he was going to have surgery done, ligaments or something were ripped clear off the bone or something I don't recall exactly.  Guy we bought the second group from raised small livestock mainly (had veal calves, sheep, couple other cows) & did livestock trucking, needed the money to fix his truck.
  My hope now is the bull "comes into his own" now and starts to grow better, he is super sweet, very mellow.  I'm intrested to see how he does with the larger cows, and how his calves  turn out, that they are not extremely small.


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## redtailgal (Apr 22, 2012)

Honestly, if this heifer has been this much work, she needs to be culled anyway.

I'd love to see some pics of your highlands, if you ever get time.

Keep us posted on how things go.


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## Mike Fronczak (Apr 22, 2012)

Yes she does need to be culled, I just separated her completely today, bought calf mana, gave her about 2 WTD (1/2 scoop) in with her normal grain.  I have picture just need to figure out how to post them.


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