# Very sick pygmy with possible goat polio



## mistyb (Feb 22, 2013)

Hi, all! I'm a fairly new goat owner (9) months. I have a set of 15 month old pygmy does who have been otherwise healthy. First, I'm not *sure* if their vaccines are UTD. When I purchased them back in May of 2012, I was told they were good to go, but not details on shots. I have them on a regular worming schedule. One of the does is deathly ill & my vet is guessing just as hard as I am right now. I need help!

The sick goat presented at midnight 2 nights ago (of course). She was fine at 8am & 2:30 pm the previous day. I was alerted by her SCREAMS... took the gun & flashlight to the barn expecting a bobcat or coyote attack. Instead I found her in her stall, prostrate, & in obvious pain. Her sister was fine. Took her inside & looked her over well. Was seeing extreme bloat, fairly stiff legs, and a head that was listing back towards spine & slightly up. Did all the usual treatments for bloat...started drenching with bicarb soda and water + vigourous massage. Didn't work after an hour. Used baby mylicon- nothing. Mineral oil- nothing after an hour. By this time, goat was in respiratory distress (tongue turning blue). So, I trocharized, using an 18 guage needle. (Yeah. I know-dangerous. Go ahead, let me have it.) This gave almost instant relief as the gas poured out.I followed with 1.5cc Penicillin (300,000 UI). By 7a.m., she was bloated back up. Mind you, she's still stiff, immobile. Called my vet, out of town. Called only other large animal vet 2 towns over...not much help as he didn't want tp mess with her, just told me to keep doing what I'd been doing.  By 2pm, she was getting worse with the neuro-like symptoms & bloat still an issue. A friend recommended a brand new vet, so we called & they took us. Vet trocharized again using 3 different 14 guage needles. Stool samples showed her parasite free. Tetanus was ruled out. I asked about listeriosis & was told only way to test for that was post-mortem. They gave her a shot of banamine and one of B Complex & sent me home with more 14 guage needles. I had to trocharize one more time & bloat subsided. I kept pushing water to help keep her hydrated. We had a long night of teeth grinding & some drooling & leg paddling. The next morning, she surprised me by standing! However, she was SO weak! Went & got more banamine (0.3 cc's 1X day, IM) and B Complex (0.5cc 1X day, SQ)  It's been back and forth since then (24 hr period) as far as the neuro symptoms. She acts blind, won't swallow on her own most of the time, and can't stand 95% of time, but she is sitting up some. But her head is still listing back.

My question is this, does this sound like polio to you? If so, the B complex *should* reverse it, right? Next question is... is the dose of B injectible actually high enough? I was instructed to give her one 0.5 cc dose daily. This isn't straight B1/thiamine, just a B complex. Shouldn't the goat be getting roughly 0.3cc every 4-6 hours instead? Any help would be appreciated. I know she's just a little $50 pygmy, but she's a doll... and my 3 year old daughter's buddy.  Thank you in advance!


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 22, 2013)

I would treat for Listeriosis and Polio. 

 She will need thiamine which is RX only.  It's cheap though, just call the vet and get a whole bottle.  She also needs to stay on Pen until symptoms go away. 


  I would also get the vet to do an IV with dextrose in it to give her a boost.  Lack of thiamine means they can't process glucose which means their brain cells starve and start to die. (the neuro symptoms) 



   She needs 3cc of Pen every 6 hours to combat Listeriosis and 2-3cc of Thiamine every 6 hours.  


   With hold pelleted feeds and grains until she's feeling better. You can give her alfalfa, hay, etc. No grain until she's turned around. 


  If you are comfortable tubing, get ready to tube if she's not drinking water. If she is, then no worries.  



  She will also need probiotics and I would continue to watch her for bloat.


----------



## elevan (Feb 22, 2013)

SuburbanFarmChic said:
			
		

> I would treat for Listeriosis and Polio.
> 
> She will need thiamine which is RX only.  It's cheap though, just call the vet and get a whole bottle.  She also needs to stay on Pen until symptoms go away.
> 
> ...


x2



_and for when she's better, I would take her off of the de-wormer schedule to prevent resistance from happening...more in the parasite management link below._


----------



## mistyb (Feb 22, 2013)

SuburbanFarmChic & Elevan- thank you for the quick response! Will up the pen & B1 doses as advised.Started her on probios yesterday, twice daily dosing. As for tubing, I have a dosing syring & approx 6" metal pipette that (I think) just reaches the esophagus as I can feel her making a swallow motion when I insert it. Will this be sufficient for getting the  fluids/nutrients in her- or do I need a small, flexible hose & quick lesson in deeper tubing?

Also, I have some Grade A Ultra 24 milk replacer (24% protein, 24% fat). Is this suitable for drenching/tubing to keep her going until she is strong enough to take food & water on her own? Would this eliminate the need for the dextrose?  

The vet is appreciated, but not sure of her experience with goat diseases past parasite control & bloat management.  :/  She had said that the B Complex would be enough when I asked about thiamine instead. *Sigh* I'm seeing now why so many people around here say goats are difficult to raise. I started off with the pygmies to gain experience before moving on to my ultimate goal/investment of a few small milkers. Guess I'm getting that experience.  

Thank you all again for sharing your knowledge with a newbie!


----------



## mistyb (Feb 22, 2013)

Also, another quick thought/question... I have a cow in milk & so have fresh raw milk available for my family's consumption. I often make cheese & have whey left over that I'll feed to my chickens after I get all I need for breadmaking, etc.  Would the whey be good for her at this point since it contains alot of the milk sugars left over? Or would it just be something else that I have to worry about keeping her rumen from healing & balancing out?

Sorry for being a pain, but I'm just trying everything I can & want to try not to throw something at her that will make her worse in the process.


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 22, 2013)

No at 15 months old she's off milk and won't properly digest it anymore.  I wouldn't use the milk replacer or whey or any other milk products. 


 There are high dextrose electrolyte mixtures available at feed stores.  There is a goat one in a little green bag I think. It's around 5/6.00 at our Tractor Supply I believe.  



  What you have is a drenching gun.  The risk is that she'll choke if you are drenching with at least a quart of liquids a day. Most drenching guns are 20, 30 or 60 cc.  30 cc is one ounce.  Think about how many times you'll have to get her to swallow that. ...  Round about the time you finish today's dosing it will be tomorrow morning. LOL.     The drenching guns are great for getting meds or booster levels of electrolytes or such into them. If you need to use this until you can get a tube, if she isn't drinking, then squirt the liquids towards her cheek. You don't squirt it "down their throat" as it's too easy for them to suddenly breathe and inhale it and then you are dealing with pneumonia on top of it all. 



  Put a little vanilla into her water and see if that convinces her to drink it. Sometimes they need a good smell. Like when you are sick and only strongly flavored things taste good.  


Tube feeding isn't too hard.  Stick it in her mouth and gradually ease it down her throat. Then put the syringe end of the tube in a cup of water. Wait 45 seconds and if you see bubbles you are in the lung. Pull out and try again.  I have trouble hearing the "digestive" vs "Breathing" sounds so I use the air bubble check.


----------



## mistyb (Feb 22, 2013)

Thanks & got it.   Headed back out for proper tubing & electrolytes.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 22, 2013)

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1998/eb1998.pdf

Here is a great tube feeding lesson. 

Can you call the vet and ask for some straight thiamine? If you tell them you are trying it all and pulling out all the stops they might give it to you. It can't hurt to try and is not as if you are asking for a narcotic of some kind.

She is lucky to have you


----------



## mistyb (Feb 22, 2013)

Babsbag, thanks for the useful link! I feel a lot better about the idea of tube feeding now. That and an earlier tip from a poster about using the cup of water to check for air bubbles makes me feel like I can tackle it without aspirating the poor critter! lol


----------



## babsbag (Feb 22, 2013)

Glad it was useful. Another BYH member posted it a few days back so good timing on her part.  

If you can trocharize her you can tube feed.  Any luck getting Thiamine? So much better than trying to use B-Complex.

Hope she pulls through for you.


----------



## mistyb (Feb 23, 2013)

Just an update... I lost the little goat last night around 9pm. I  checked on her before going in to prepare her tube feeding and her injections. She has a seizure. I waited for it to pass & comforted her. She settled & was still breathing. I went to get the feeding and shots & she was gone when I walked out 3 minutes later.  Poor creature, I guess she was too far gone in the disease before I really knew how to start treating.   

I think we're going to submit her body for necropsy up at OSU. I really want to rule out any zoonotic organism & to make sure all our other hoofed varmints aren't at risk.

Thank you to everyone who offered their advice & experience! I wish *I* could have done better... I feel like I let the animal down. Worse, I feel like I let my (human) kids down because I couldn't save her. *Sigh*  Ah, such is life sometimes.


----------



## bonbean01 (Feb 23, 2013)

So sorry Misty   I followed your thread, but had no ideas of what to do.  I have sheep, not goats...but many things are alike.  Getting her checked now is a good idea and you will then know exactly what you were dealing with and if the rest of your herd needs treatment or will be fine.  Please post the results on here as we all learn from what happened to you.

Don't be too hard on yourself...you tried everything you knew to try and worked hard to save her.  You didn't let your goat down   Now as for the human children, not sure how old they are, but I remember when my children were young and a pet was having seizures and I couldn't save it...that was the day they learned that mommy can't fix everything...until that day I hadn't realized that they believed I could.

I see you are new and want to welcome you to Backyard Herds...a wonderful place!


----------



## alsea1 (Feb 23, 2013)

Sometimes you just can't save them. 
I don't know if I would had the confidence or courage to do the trocharize procedure. 
Sorry you lost her after such a battle.


----------



## elevan (Feb 23, 2013)

Know that you did all that you could.  Sometimes things just don't go the way you want them to.  Don't be hard on yourself, your little one spent his life loved.


----------



## SuburbanFarmChic (Feb 23, 2013)

I am so sorry. Seriously don't beat yourself up on this one. Both polio and listeria are VERY hard to treat even for experienced goat people.  Your instincts are in the right place and you seem good in an emergency. Sometimes we learn things only by experiencing them. Next time you will know what to do. 
Hugs and keep heart and go hug your other goaties.


----------



## Mamaboid (Feb 23, 2013)

We do our best.  It is a really unfortunate fact that sometimes our best is just not enough.  It is all we can do though, so don't beat yourself up for a minute.  You went a lot further than a lot of people would know how or be willing to do.  I say good job.


----------



## babsbag (Feb 23, 2013)

I was hoping for a different outcome, but you had a up hill battle. You gave her the best care you could and you loved her, she was a lucky little goat. I feel bad for your kids, I know that breaks my heart when I can't fix the world for your kids. It is tough, but please don't beat yourself up, you did a good job, better than most could have done.


----------



## mistyb (Feb 23, 2013)

Thank you all for the concern & words of comfort! It helps... I know you all have had battles & lost some, too.   

I will definitely share the pathology reports with you guys as soon as I get them. I'm with you... it's a learning experience.


----------



## julieq (Feb 24, 2013)

So sorry to hear about your loss.  ((hugs))  But please know that we all lose one occasionally.  You did all you could.  Jules


----------



## CritterZone (Mar 21, 2013)

I read this post hoping for a happy ending.  I'm so sorry you lost the little guy.  Have you received the pathology report yet?


----------



## alsea1 (Mar 21, 2013)

You mentioned OSU. Are you talking about Oregon State University?


----------

