# What can I do about scurs?



## savingdogs

I have a nigerian dwarf buck that I'm using with my does and reselling in 45 days. I'd like to improve him if possible.

His feet needed trimming badly and he is very dusty/muddy. I think a bath and a second hoof trimming will improve his looks. He also has scurs, one on each side. One is larger and curls under a bit towards his head. I knew about them of course when I went to see him and buy him, but I wonder now if I can improve the situation for him and again, make him more saleable. 

He is easy to handle but did not seem to like me touching his scurs, especially the curled one that I was trying to check out. Can I trim these back? I don't have any disbudding tools or anything special but wonder if anything can or should be done for this. Because of the condition of his hooves, I was not confident that he was being cared for very well by his prior owners, although they certainly fed him enough. They just had tons and tons of goats and since I have only four can give him more attention.


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## MysticScorpio82

I don't have goats atm, however I can at least point you in a direction.  According to Fias Co farm

"Bucks very often get scurs because they have so much testosterone that even if you are sure you got a good solid copper ring early enough, they manage to grow some horn (a scur). These buck scurs can get really bad, and you have to watch that they don't curl around and grow into the goat's scull. It this case, the scurs must be trimmed.

Trimming scurs: (We use a "wire saw" , also called an "OB saw", "Gigli saw" or Bone cutting saw ). You really only need to trim scurs if they start to curl around and start to grow into the goat's head.  The reason you trim them is so they do not cause damage to the goat. Trim no more than one inch at a time, or you risk cause a lot of bleeding. Put the goat up in your milk stand (click here for free plans to build your own) to make this task doable, because they do not like it at all."  http://www.fiascofarm.com/goats/disbudding.htm  (scroll down a bit)

And if you want to see pics with some descriptions on trimming scurs : http://www.fiascofarm.com/galleries/Goat_Care_and_Information/Scur_Trimming/index.html

Good luck to you!!


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## ()relics

scurs are usually cause by improper burning of the horn bud when the goat was dehorn/disbudded as a kid.  All the horn cells around the base of the horn aren't killed and eventually begin to grow.   Usually a scur can be loosened with your hand or the goat will loosen it himself by rubbing on things, like a billy with horns does.  Generally scurs do not need to be cause for concern and should be left alone unless physical damage is obvious. JMO 
    Fiasco farms is a poor source to quote...it has been discussed here many times before so no need to go into the facts again...suffice it to say the information presented there is dated and opinionated at best as well as archived....Not JMO...Fact


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## Beekissed

A young ram lamb I bought recently had two scurs but knocked one off on the fence after the first day or so here.  It bled a little but was fine.  If they come off that easily, I was wondering if one could just see if they are loosely attached and then pop them off....or is that too painful, ya think?  

I don't think he had been disbudded at all...he just grew these residual horns though his breed is normally polled.


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## savingdogs

Well one of the two is growing curved but I don't believe into his skull. I'll examine him for that more closely, but it seems to me it was fairly mobile as well. I don't need to borrow trouble so don't want to start something bleeding.


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## MysticScorpio82

()relics said:
			
		

> scurs are usually cause by improper burning of the horn bud when the goat was dehorn/disbudded as a kid.  All the horn cells around the base of the horn aren't killed and eventually begin to grow.   Usually a scur can be loosened with your hand or the goat will loosen it himself by rubbing on things, like a billy with horns does.  Generally scurs do not need to be cause for concern and should be left alone unless physical damage is obvious. JMO
> Fiasco farms is a poor source to quote...it has been discussed here many times before so no need to go into the facts again...suffice it to say the information presented there is dated and opinionated at best as well as archived....Not JMO...Fact


Is this a better source? http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2061 

If you think the site I suggested is so horribly inaccurate for information, could you give some of us newbs a better one? (not being snarky, I would just like a better info site if there is one because I want to be as prepared as possible for my goats and so far this was the most informative one I could find)


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## babsbag

I am not a goat expert, but I am in my second year raising dairy goats. Personally, I like Fiascofarms. Yes, they have some views on goat health that I don't always agree with, but most of what I read on the site is good down to earth advice. Like everything else in a book or on the web, it is one person's opinion and should be treated as such. 

I have found nothing wrong with the site as long as you realize that holisitc goat health and being a vegetarian isn't for everyone and maybe it isn't for you, but I don't think they are trying to push it on their visitors. I just skip over the things I don't embrace and move onto the other great information they have on the site.

Inforrmation on feeding, disbudding, kidding, castrating, and raising goats in general can be found all over the web and I like having one central site that tells me a little about alot. It is not gospel, no site should be, but I still feel it is a good resource. I don't care if it is opinionated and archived. It still has some valid information. IMO

Their goat cheese recipes are good, BTW.


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## ()relics

MysticScorpio82 said:
			
		

> If you think the site I suggested is so horribly inaccurate for information, could you give some of us newbs a better one? (not being snarky, I would just like a better info site if there is one because I want to be as prepared as possible for my goats and so far this was the most informative one I could find)


http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5810

In animal health/care issues where a poster may do or not do to one of their animals based on something they read, it is best to, know yourself before you advise someone else, In My Opinion, and Not To Be Snarky...
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/goatlinks.html
http://www.smallruminantresearch.com/home
http://www2.luresext.edu/index.htm
http://extension.umd.edu/
any of these would at least give you Non-biased information....Anytime someone is trying to sell their products and feels that they need to twist the information to do so...well you fill in the blanks...


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## helmstead

Scurs are generally no big deal to remove.  Most of them can just be grabbed with a good plier or hoof nipper depending on size - you hold still, the goat squirms...and POP off comes the scur.  Actual HORN growth (deformed horns from a really bad disbudding mess up) will have a full blood supply and need to be banded or sawn off, then reburned (unless you wanna do it over and over again).  We do this with a general sedative/NSAID.

With a true scur, there will be a little blood under the scur when it pops off.  Actual removal is quick and probably a lot like a hangnail to the goat (they're over it immediately).  You can spray it with wound kote.

With babies, often if you start popping off those little irritating scurs as soon as they grow, they will eventually quit growing (more true with does, tho, often bucks are best reburned).


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## aggieterpkatie

I dont' think scurs are a big deal.  My buck had them last year, and one did need trimming so it wouldn't hit his head, but other than that, it's not a big deal.  My buckling this year has them (because the breeder didn't disbud properly) and they don't cause an issue at all.  He's managed to pop each one off at one time or another, and they usually grow back slowly.


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## helmstead

It's a personal preference, IMO.  I HATE scurs.  I think they really ruin the 'look', which is important in a show herd.

Prior to showing, I didn't fuss with scurs (except on my one buck who's deformed horn tried to grow back into his scull).  Now I'm glad I removed his scur and deformed horn, though, because he cannot damage my fencing like he used to when he rubbed his head.


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## MysticScorpio82

()relics said:
			
		

> MysticScorpio82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you think the site I suggested is so horribly inaccurate for information, could you give some of us newbs a better one? (not being snarky, I would just like a better info site if there is one because I want to be as prepared as possible for my goats and so far this was the most informative one I could find)
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5810
> 
> In animal health/care issues where a poster may do or not do to one of their animals based on something they read, it is best to, know yourself before you advise someone else, In My Opinion, and Not To Be Snarky...
> http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/sheep/goatlinks.html
> http://www.smallruminantresearch.com/home
> http://www2.luresext.edu/index.htm
> http://extension.umd.edu/
> any of these would at least give you Non-biased information....Anytime someone is trying to sell their products and feels that they need to twist the information to do so...well you fill in the blanks...
Click to expand...

Awesome!  Thank you much!


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## savingdogs

How would I know a true scur from a horn? I did not think they were horns immediately as they are kind of soft and almost rubbery feeling and the seller referred to them as scurs as well. 

If I were to decide to trim back the curving one, say I were to contain him, dip my sharpest hoove cutters in bleach water and then nip just the curved part off, perhaps an inch or two, and be ready with some of my styptic from dog toe nail trims that I have....perhaps cleanse the stump of what is left in weak antimicrobial/h20 mix first? It kind of makes his hair bunch up and looks unattractive to me and I would like to make him as attractive as possible for resale. The scur itself is perhaps 4 inches long if you straightened it out, but the curve keeps it kind of flat to his head. I repeat though I don't want to borrow trouble......

I need to learn how to upload pictures on here for this kind of thing but I'm really brain dead about that type of stuff...someone already patiently explained it to me and it still didn't seem to work......sorry. I would not go to the trouble of reburning this for him if they are horns because I'm trying to keep my investment down. He is a nigerian but without papers so his value will never be too high. He seems a bit stocky to be a show type as well, but he suited my purposes because my main goal was for them to have nice small kids for their first freshening without putting out a lot of money and I think he should fill that role nicely. They are already part pygmy so could have "stocky" offspring anyway, although they are mainly quasi mini nubian (mom 3/4 nigy, 1/4 pygmy, dad full sized nubian).

Thanks again for all suggestions, I am the type that reads all websites and then decides for myself as what is on the internet is just one person's opinion. While I would like to try to do things naturally and holistically and found fiascofarms site very helpful, I do agree that is just one person's style and experience and my experience working for a vet has shown me holistic ideas are not always effective. Our family is fully carnivorous as well! I believe science updates things constantly and while "old ways" can work, studying the latest never hurts either and doing what feels right and is feasible for you, blending old and new is my style. Isn't that what this forum is about, so that we can discuss our different experiences? I thank all of you for your advice and attention to my questions and appreciate everyones differing opinions. From all of you I shall form my own. Relic I look forward to reading those web links.

If I have learned anything about goats, it is that people have different styles that seem to work for them and that they have opinions about! But the goats seem to be thriving so I'll just keep on paying attention to y'all!


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## helmstead

Scurs are generally flat, whereas deformed horns will have a cylindrical center (where pulp and blood supply are).

If it's a deformed horn, and you cut it off...blood stop isn't going to do much to stop the bleeding.  You just have to apply pressure best you can and wait for it to clot.  I've found that using a bone saw creates enough heat while sawing that it seems to cauterize the blood as it goes through and is a LOT less messy than cutting or using a dremmel.


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## ohiofarmgirl

> Fiasco farms is a poor source to quote...it has been discussed here many times before so no need to go into the facts again...suffice it to say the information presented there is dated and opinionated at best as well as archived....Not JMO...Fact


Seriously? We are back on this again? Sheesh!


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## SDGsoap&dairy

savingdogs said:
			
		

> although they are mainly quasi mini nubian (mom 3/4 nigy, 1/4 pygmy, dad full sized nubian).


Yeouch!!


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## reinbeau

Enough about Fiasco Farms.  Keep on the topic of scurs and the thread will remain open.


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## savingdogs

n.smithurmond said:
			
		

> savingdogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> although they are mainly quasi mini nubian (mom 3/4 nigy, 1/4 pygmy, dad full sized nubian).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeouch!!
Click to expand...

Yes, that was an accident, and not at MY house. This is why I was careful to have a dad smaller than mom.

To her credit, the doe had three healthy triplets, beautiful babies if I do say so myself, and it was her first time. The owners were real upset that it happened (buck broke through fence) and sold her after we bought the kids.


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## SDGsoap&dairy

It's great she delivered without incident. I'll bet having triplets instead of a giant singleton helped!


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## savingdogs

I would have thought having a single one would be easier, I guess I still have a lot to learn. All three are more the size of a nigerian but have the body shape more like a nubian. I realize mini nubians are created with originally using those two breeds but the other way around, and I'd love to use a real mini nubian stud next year and keep all females that time.

However for this year I'm trying to economize since it is just their first freshening. That is why we bought this little guy and plan to sell him after he has the girls well covered. That is why I'd like to make him look as nice as possible, hence the beginning of the scur question.

I think I've decided that at this point the scurs are just going to stay on his head until I'm more experienced at evaluating them. They do not seem to be growing into his head, and I don't have a saw, although I am still interested in learning more about scurs as I plan on having more goats!


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## babsbag

I have a wether with scurs and we just live with it as they don't get very long and he occaisionally knocks them off. If I grab ahold of them they wiggle a little so you can tell they aren't well attached.

My buck on the other hand had  "scurs" that were not loose and the two of them kinda grew together and made him into a unicorn of sorts, at least that is what my vet told me when we had him dehorned.

OMG, I will NEVER do that to an animal again. He came home with the top of head sliced off and open to his sinuses. Then it got infected. It literally took 7 months for it to close completly and in spite of all of that he still has a little bit of horn growth. 

Knowing now what I do I would have reburned his horns when we bought him. The seller assured my it was a loose scur and would get knocked off. I should have taken him to the vet at 2 months of age and not 9 months. It would have been so much easier when he was young.

It was the most horrid surgery I have ever put an animal through and I still feel bad for him. His scur was growing back into his skull, I plan on keeping him, and I didn't want him getting hurt or hurting the does or me, so I had to do, but it doesn't make it any easier to remember. I am just thankful that I did it in the winter when there were no flies to deal with.

We did cut it back once and it bled like crazy, and he screamed like crazy. That was another reason we opted for the surgery. It sure made me a believer in burning and re-burning if needed.

The one plus...his head was cut off so much that his scent glands seemed to have gotten "damaged" as well. He smells like a buck, but not like other ones I have been around. I think he was partially de-scented. If that is possible.


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## savingdogs

Wow, what a story! 

So scurs are the result of inadequate burning in the first place, or bucks having too much testosterone?

Sebastian's scurs are just like you describe, kinda wiggly and rubbery, not hard like a horn. But with all that I've heard on this thread, I think I'm gonna just leave well enough alone. It is good to learn what to do in other situations though.


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## babsbag

Yes, the scurs are because of inadequate burning. The swiss breeds have larger horn buds and are harder to burn in the first place so then you add the testosterone to that and it is just difficult to get a good burn on a buck. Many people do it, but many don't.  This year I waited a little over 2 weeks to do my bucklings and we didn't get a clean burn on one. I am new to this goat thing and I just waited too long. The doelings are fine. Bucks just grow bigger faster. Live and learn.


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## Mitchellsmommy

I recently purchased an 8 week old wether with what I believe are scurs...Like 'ridges' around the front part of the bud holes, I guess you'd call them(?) The buds were burnt down, and I mean DEEPLY. I was surprised how deep. My others seem more flat and larger circumference as well. These are smaller holes, like I could put my finger into them and scoop out pieces of debris. Like a bowl. Anyway... I think I would just leave them, but I feel like I can't because he play fights with my other two goats and he has already injured one. He was head to head with him and they kept ramming heads together and my younger one who is like 4 weeks began to bleed (A LOT) from his debudding scabs that had just really started to heal up. I got it under control but just worry he might keep opening them up and end up infected...(?) PLUS if he butts his scurs off and bleeds (they are very low and wide close to the skull...) I don't want like sinus or brain or eye damage to him either! Those holes really do seem too far in as well, like he's missing a good chunk of skull on both sides. I was hoping that it could be reburned to just get rid of it so he can't hurt himself or others! Thanks for any input!


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## Mitchellsmommy

the boo boo spot...


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## Pearce Pastures

Hi Mitchellsmommy.  You might get more responses to your question by starting a new thread.  I don't see any regrowth (scurs) in your photo but he looks to have been freshly burned. 

At 8 weeks, the horn growth he did have would have been significant and I imagine they maybe had to burn repeatedly to knock down the horn to the skull, or maybe even cut it first.  It was done later than ideal I would say.  

We disbud at a few days old and on males, we burn in a figure 8 pattern because the base of their horn is wider than a females.  He seems to have a single burn area and it looks fresh.

So what to do?  

Spray the wound with BluKote and let it heal.  If he does develop scurs, they will be small, thin pieces of horn that will probably get knocked off from time to time, or can be trimmed down with hoof shears.  If that is not acceptable for you, you might get someone to help do a second burn to eliminate what was missed in the first attempt.  I personally would wait until he is healed up a bit though.


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## OneFineAcre

Mitchellsmommy said:


> the boo boo spot...


Not sure what you are seeing but, you don't have any scurs yet with that one.  Be sure to keep an eye out for infection where the scabs got knocked off.  We would spray something like that with an antiseptic spray.


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## OneFineAcre

Pearce Pastures said:


> Hi Mitchellsmommy.  You might get more responses to your question by starting a new thread.  I don't see any regrowth (scurs) in your photo but he looks to have been freshly burned.
> 
> At 8 weeks, the horn growth he did have would have been significant and I imagine they maybe had to burn repeatedly to knock down the horn to the skull, or maybe even cut it first.  It was done later than ideal I would say.
> 
> We disbud at a few days old and on males, we burn in a figure 8 pattern because the base of their horn is wider than a females.  He seems to have a single burn area and it looks fresh.
> 
> So what to do?
> 
> Spray the wound with BluKote and let it heal.  If he does develop scurs, they will be small, thin pieces of horn that will probably get knocked off from time to time, or can be trimmed down with hoof shears.  If that is not acceptable for you, you might get someone to help do a second burn to eliminate what was missed in the first attempt.  I personally would wait until he is healed up a bit though.


x2


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## Mitchellsmommy

OneFineAcre said:


> x2


OH...no...The picture isn't of my 8 week old with [what I think are] the scurs. 
That is Benjamin, my 4 week old, who was playing with him (the 8 week old is Edward.)
I was trying to show the damage done to Benjamin by Edward's [scurs](?)
I can try to get a picture tomorrow, but it is kind of hard to see them because they are underneath the tuft of hair on top of his head. 
Benjamin's debudding looks very flat and wide, and was beginning to heal and the scabs coming off, revealing new skin. My 'baby', Roux, [two-three weeks old] has nice,round, flat burn marks too. 
If you touch Edward's head, you can feel very smallish round holes where they attempted the disbudding/ debudding (?) Then in front of the holes there are wicked hard, bony ridges. They feel sort of pointy but not like actual horns. And they are connected right to like where the bump of the skull slopes behind I guess what you would refer to as the upper brow(?)
Then the holes are behind that, and they go pretty deep...and the sides of the skull seem so small and narrow that it seems like unnaturally dented in. I don't know if I am making any sense. But again, I'll try to push the hair aside and get some pics. It is kind of hard to explain...You'd have to feel the head and skull shape to really understand the strangeness I guess. 
They are very solid and connected, so when the two of them play, they cut right into poor Benjamin's still healing wounds. :/  ...  
I have seen the figure 8 kind of burns and I feel like that is what should have been done on Edward. But the circles are so small (even though very deep) that even if they had done additional burns in front of them, I feel like there would have still been more 'horn matter' sprouting up around the burn circles. ugh. poor dear.


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## momto6Ls

helmstead said:


> Scurs are generally no big deal to remove.  Most of them can just be grabbed with a good plier or hoof nipper depending on size - you hold still, the goat squirms...and POP off comes the scur.  Actual HORN growth (deformed horns from a really bad disbudding mess up) will have a full blood supply and need to be banded or sawn off, then reburned (unless you wanna do it over and over again).  We do this with a general sedative/NSAID.



Sooooo how do you tell if it is scur or actual horn?  We had a "friend" help us disbud our kids this year (it was our first time and we didn't have equipment) and it was a disaster.  He told us to wait too long, then came with cutters and cut the horns (a big bloody mess) and then burned.  It is a buck. Saanen. I just read on a power point Saanen are different when it comes to disbudding, but it didn't say how!  Can you give me any help?


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## babsbag

A scur will wiggle when you grab hold of it, a horn is solidly anchored to the head.  

From your description of the disbudding I would say that your buck has a horn. They need to done at about 5 days on a standard breed buck. I have friends that raise Saanens and they burn them the same as I do on my Alpines and LaManchas. On a doeling you might be able to push the disbudding to 10 days, but 7 is more the norm. And the buckling's grow bigger faster so we usually do them at about 5 days. 

Your best bet for him is to find a good vet that is familiar with goats and have them removed, but I would wait until fly season is over as it won't be pretty.


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## momto6Ls

Ugh. Yeah. This little guy was 4 weeks, I think. Thanks for the Help! We had bucklings last year and the same guy said they were perfect at 6 weeks. He would just "brake them off!"  I said no thanks and just sold them with horns.  This guy we are going to keep, so off to the vet he'll go.  We did sister the same day. She looks great, but if course his horns were much bigger. Thanks again!


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## babsbag

We also typically burn the bucklings more than once, a few weeks apart; 3 different times is not uncommon. They are just tough. A 6 week old buckling is WAY TOO old to burn, even my vet wouldn't do it. At that age it would be a dehorning and much more involved.


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