# .



## secuono

_______


----------



## Mini Horses

She's lovely!!


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## thistlebloom

She sure seems like she has a lot of potential already. Congratulations!


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## thistlebloom

She's sweet.


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## thistlebloom

Looks like they've buddied up nicely! Good dogs!


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## Blue Sky

Congratulations. She has a nice expression.


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## frustratedearthmother

My LGD's ALL snack on goat food.  Grain free food is not an option here even if that's what I buy, lol!


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## Madhouse Pullet

Welna is beautiful!!!


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## Ridgetop

Pups this age are safer with predators than tiny pups.  She is not necessarily big enough to go toe to toe but barking is enough.  Plus it will bring the other LGD to the scene.  

Did you say your old dog is not a good guardian?  Chasing sheep off is ok behavior since the sheep are not flock members.  One dog to watch the flock and one to drive off strangers/predators.  He will teach her a lot once they can go in together.  Unless he is a roamer, in which case i would not put them together - you don't want him to teach her to roam!

The circle of destruction is normal and will probably remain until she turns 2.  We have discovered many treasures our dogs have dragged up over the years.  The old trash heap and burn pile (100 years ago) have given up old sun colored patent medicine bottles, as well as unidentified trash.  Large branches for some reason are a favorite.  A lovely collectible Kewpie doll also appeared, unfortunately missing a hand by the time we found her!  LOL  

The trash that she brings up will eventually lessen as she grows up.  It's good that she is able to be in with the old dog now since they will play and she will watch him as he guards.  IN another 3 years, you can get another Anatolian.  Make sure there is at least 3-4 years between their ages.  Two Anatolians of the same sex and age will fight for dominance, sometimes to the death.  Not worth the effort to try keeping them.   So much easier and better for flock protection to have them separated by age and sex.  That way the older dog will train the younger dog on those things you cannot. 

When Angel was a year old, I came outside to find her with the sheep at the to of the gully.  She was sitting bolt upright watching the gully, clearly on guard.  She was alone.  I did a few chores and she never left the spot.  Finally, I saw a change in her expression and saw our older Anatolian bitch coming up from the gully.  When Rika reached Angel, they touched noses for a few seconds.  Then the Rika led the sheep into the gully, followed by Angel.   Obviously the young inexperienced bitch had been stationed to guard the sheep in a safe spot while Rika checked out the gully for some predator.   Tremendous visual proof that these dogs communicate and work in tandem to guard!  

Angel is 2 years old now and her protection skills have grown tremendously.  However, all three of our Anatolians work together to protect the sheep and ranch.   They take alternating work and sleep shifts during the day, while they are all on alert at night.  Love these dogs.

So happy you got another LGD.  You will love your Anatolian.  Just be aware that they are not very accepting of strangers on the property.  Their definition of "stranger" may not be your definition either.  LOL


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## Ridgetop

secuono said:


> ??
> You're going to have to explain that, because it makes zero sense to me.
> A bunch of sheep is a flock.
> They're all her sheep. Even though she currently only lives with two.
> Chasing them is never okay. Especially since she's just being hyper and stupid, no purpose to it. Purpose would be rounding sheep up to get them away from predators, but that's 100% not what she has done.
> 
> Sorry!  I meant to type in *DEER!
> 
> Chasing off deer is ok!   *Chasing sheep is never ok.


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## Ridgetop

Anatolians are very different in their approach to newborns.  Our Pyrs stayed close to the lambing area until the scent wore off then resumed their duties.  They liked the newborns, lambs, and kids, but in a different manner than our Anatolians.  Our Anatolians are fascinated by newborns and are super protective of the ewe and her babies.  

There are some excellent articles on the lucky Hit Ranch website about introducing young Anatolians to lambing ewes, the proper behavior expected of them, and training them to the task.  Look for Lucky Hit Ranch, Erick Conard, and on his site will be a bunch of articles written over the past 30 years about Anatolian behavior and training of all kinds.  He has spent the past 35 years studying the behavior of this breed, its way of guarding, the way in which it interacts with the flock, etc.  Erick has been my prop during my introduction to Anatolians, their behavior and training.  Without his guidance and reinforcement I might have given up, particularly on Bubba who is a very dominant male and very difficult to train.  With Bubba you have to be the Alpha at all times, and not only to him.  You have to intrinsically believe yourself to be the Alpha of the pack as well.  Any weakness or doubt will affect your position in the pack hierarchyc reducing you from pack Alpha to a weaker member needing protection.  Once this happens you will have to fight your way back to the top.  

Although Welna is a puppy now, it is not too early to introduce her to new mothers and lambing ewes this season. Put her on a leash and bring her into the lambing area.  Some Anatolians are so protective of newborn lambs they will try to steal the lamb.  Any protective behavior by the ewe is seen as aggression to the lamb and can cause the Anatolian to bite the ewe as she tries to drive the dog away.  By training Welna now as a puppy in the proper Anatolian behavior you will not have to try to train a 110 lb. 18 month old bitch next year.   Holding back a 100 lb. plus dog that is straining to get to the newborn lamb he thinks is his personal property is exhausting!    And further complicated by the ewe who butts at him to protect her newborn.   Much easier to control a 6 month old 60-70 lb. puppy!   LOL

Proper Anatolian behavior to a newborn and ewe is to lay down at a distance of 6-10 feet from the lamb and new mother.  New mothers, particularly first fresheners, often are aggressive to the dog,  The Anatolian needs to learn to retreat to the distance the ewe deems proper, then wait there until she is allowed to come to the ewe and newborn.  By keeping the puppy on a leash you can encourage her to keep her distance, praising her excessively when she keeps her distance on a loose lead. 

Experienced mothers with their Anatolian guardians (who behave properly) will not behave aggressively to the dog. Experienced Anatolians will keep the proper distance until allowed closer by the mother.  Cleaning off the lamb by the Anatolian is ok since it strengthens the bond between lamb and dog.  However, interference by the dog between mother and lamb is not ok.  Some dogs have this instinctively.  Others must be taught.  Still others, like Bubba, must be taught and taught and taught, and reinforced relentlessly!  

Two of our Anatolians are good with new mothers.  Rika is *excellent.  *She automatically keeps the proper distance until allowed closer by the ewe.  Angel is getting there.  She is excited by the newborns, but does not approach the ewes until allowed.  Bubba though!  It has taken several years to get Bubba to behave properly around newborns.  He wants them for himself and has been very aggressive toward protective ewes.  Part of this problem is that when we got him, lambing season was over and no new lambs arrived for quite a while,  He did not have the opportunity to be trained while young.  I had to call Erick many, many times for help and guidance in training him.   The more people and noise in the barn with newborns seemed to excite him as well, making it hard to control his uber-protectiveness.   It finally took Rika getting fed up with his frantic behavior, beating him up, driving him out of the barn and keeping him out.   _*She*_ taught *us* to restrict his access to the barn and to concentrate on his behavior training.  He is still super protective to newborns and super excited about them but we have worked through it and he is better now.  Erick says that can be a problem with male Anatolians much more than females.  For some reason male Anatolians *looove *newborn lambs and can be more protective of them than females.

Bubba gets shut up when we have to move a ewe and newborns from the field into the barn since he still gets overly excited.  He sometimes tries to bite at the lamb we are carrying into the barn as we try to move the newborns and ewe across the field into the barn jug.  I am not sure if he thinks he needs to return the lamb to the ewe, or just wants to steal it from us, but it is easier to pen him during this chore. 

Bubba also gets penned up when we separate and move sheep around since he really does not want the flock separated.  He tries to keep them in one spot!  Very hard to separate and drive sheep with a giant Anatolian herding them back together!!!   Rika doesn't do this although she is anxious about the procedure.  Angel just thinks it is playtime and between her and Bubba, pandemonium reigns at Ridgetop. 

Bubba is not as perfect as Rika but he has his uses and is a terrific all around farm guard.  They all have their personalities and uses.   Our next Anatolian will be a bitch though.  They are easier to work with although female  Anatolians are very dominant as well.

Luckily lambing season will occur while Welna is still a puppy which will make your training so much easier.


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## Nao57

secuono said:


> She's gotten much more comfortable with the rams. Saw her laying still while a ram was an inch from her tail, whereas just yesterday, she wouldn't of been okay with that.
> View attachment 78433
> 
> Lol, she touched some pokeweed & is now a purple doggie! Guess she's ready for Halloween.
> View attachment 78436
> 
> And some sniffing with my older dog. He still isn't thrilled with her, lol.
> View attachment 78434
> View attachment 78435



This is kind of late, but I'm a bit curious if you got her to stop trying to leave the fenced areas? 

Is she leaving because of being lonely or just exceptionally curious.

And that one picture looks like she's saying, "haha I'm guilty, but try to catch me at it.."


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## Nao57

Wow...

I didn't know sheep dogs ate sheep food. LOL>.. get it, sheep dog? Sheep food for sheep dogs. 

4th graders would laugh at a pun like this.


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## frustratedearthmother

Good girl!


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## Alasgun

*She looks like a nice fit, which is always a good thing.
Thanks for sharing.*


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## B&B Happy goats

secuono said:


> Went back out shortly after and she had chewed the string. 🤦🏽‍♀️
> 
> Redid it shorter.
> We'll see if it's there in the morning...


You could try braiding nine pieces  of bailing twine to make a heavier  "rope" to tie the ball to, should be fairly  difficult  to chew through


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## Grizzlyhackle

Man I know had an English Pointer run faster further than any dog I ever saw.  He attached 2  2 foot cow chain sections to her collar. Slowed her way down so you could hunt behind her. The drawback was one Saturday she discovered live wire keeping hogs in a field. Wore her out, never heard a dog squeal so loud or that gentleman cuss so much getting her loose. She did slow down though.


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## Grizzlyhackle

You still got the collar...


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## Beekissed

Yeah...the tire drag I put on Blue lasted one night~and that had chain and a metal clip, not a wire...we still haven't found it.  Now, that ball looks interesting...at least they don't have to drag it.  I'll have to look into one of those.


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## Beekissed

secuono said:


> I have an old chain choke collar somewhere that I'll try to hang the ball with next.
> 
> Balls are horse jolly balls. Horses didn't play with them, LGDs rarely bother & housedog is too old n small. 🤷🏽‍♀️


I'm be afraid he would jump something and that ball would catch and the choke chain would choke.


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## Grizzlyhackle

Beekissed said:


> I'm be afraid he would jump something and that ball would catch and the choke chain would choke.


I had a beagle got tangled up in something lost his collar. Went to the vet later same day. Turns out he cracked a neck veterbrae. Tight collars, dog can't get loose if it's snagged. Loose collars they catch everything. I hate collars.


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## thistlebloom

We had a Newf that could escape any collar so I used a horse halter on him like a harness. Maybe some Bitter Apple will keep her from chewing.


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## Tigger19687

Looks to me like she just wants to play.
Is she without the GP when there are issues ? I'm betting because she was with her brother so long in the beginning that she Needs company.
Also be very careful tieing things to the collar after she's been doing what you've shown. She may just get her bottom jaw stuck in the collar... and break the jaw, or neck.  I've seen it happen with strong willed dogs.
I used to work at a animal hospital and shelters.

She is adorable though


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## Tigger19687

My favorite pic is of her and the GP, when the GP has front feet off group and mouth open with the funny Play Expression .
🤣


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## Tigger19687

I was kinda hoping the horse chase would have made her think more.... guess not.
I'm beginning to wonder if this was why she was sold.


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## NEWCOMER

secuono said:


> Decided to make a separate journal for this.
> 
> With the coyotes coming closer, getting louder & my dog not particularly giving a darn, I felt pressured to get a dog now, even if it's not everything I wanted.
> 
> Ended up finding a female 3hrs south, seller bought her w/brother & they chose to sell one. Original breeder I had contacted, but they were 4.5~ hours south, too far for me. Dog was born end if May, so a much older pup than I'm used to dealing with, which will be evident with all her adventures...She's 3/4th Anatolian with a dash of GP, I didn't want any GP, but she's short haired, so I took the chance. Was hoping other GP traits don't show up.
> 
> Anyway, brought her home Monday. Already knew containment was going to be tricky because of her age, size & mobility.
> 
> I can't remember exactly what she escaped & in what order, so I'll skip the details. I'll say that she kept finding all the spots I failed to find/think of. Wood, mesh, hot wire. I thought I got all spots, but she escaped this morning at 9am. I will say, that each time, she's lasted longer and longer before finding a way out. So, I see that as a good sign. She's also more & more calm n okay with me walking away from her.
> 
> She has been barking on her own or backing up my GP since day one. She's very good with all my animals, submissive & respectful of their space, too. My GP was most upset, I still haven't let them meet w/o the fence, but they have been living with just the one fence splitting them. He could of jumped in, but hasn't, so he's giving her space.
> Barn cat went missing for two days. Tonight is day 4 & he has finally met her nose to nose.
> Horses don't care either way.
> She's living with two rams & knew right away to give them space. Slowly more comfortable around them, but still being aware that they could be turds to her. I opened a paddock & the yard around the barn for her to explore. So now she's in with the baby ram, too. She knew right away that he was much more safe to approach, but doesn't bother him.
> Met the housedog yesterday. That went very well, as housedog is super dominant.
> I had her in the backyard today to meet the 9 ewes not being bred & she was calm & happy to try meeting them. They weren't as thrilled, lol. As we sat there, housedog was walking through the tall grass on the other side of the yard & new pup thought she was a predator when she turned a corner towards us. Pup trotted off with her big girl bark, but she quickly realized that she knew that black fluffball & returned. Then we went to the opposite side to meet Seb & his girls. He wasn't near, so pup was happy to say hello, they were less welcoming. As soon as the ram showed up, she backed off.
> 
> She's afraid of vehicles. Hay guy scared her into the far paddock. Opening my car for her to sniff around had her off in a corner. I have to use the tractor tomorrow...Oh boy. Hopefully, that helps keep her off the road at the very least.
> 
> Oh, that was kinda long, sorry.
> 
> Anyway, I ended up naming her Wełna, which means "wool" in Polish.
> 
> View attachment 78398View attachment 78399View attachment 78400View attachment 78401View attachment 78402View attachment 78403View attachment 78405View attachment 78406View attachment 78407
> View attachment 78408
> 
> Both barking tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Day one, backing up GP.


Awww...cute dog!


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## Grizzlyhackle

You take all these pictures and videos with your phone?


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## Grizzlyhackle

They are pretty good. I've enjoyed looking at them. I'm really impressed with the zoom. If you don't mind me asking what brand is it.


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## Mini Horses

She's so pretty ...gotta forgive with a face like that!


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## Tigger19687

secuono said:


> What?
> Escaping?
> They lived in a 15x15ft chain link kennel in the woods. No other fencing. The type you buy pre-made with poles all around, think chain link gates, but bigger. Don't see how she would of escaped that. There were no holes nor dug holes.
> Seller said she was fighting her brother over food.
> Either way, seller has no need for a dog, they need to invest in proper shelter for their birds.


Oh, you didn't say that in the beginning so I assumed she was a guard dog on a farm.

Glad she's been staying in the fence


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## Bruce

Looks like Welna is doing her job just fine.


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## Bruce

Looks like she did OK with the shearing. Never know what that noise will do to an animal. Neither of my alpacas like being sheared but they are more calm with hand shearing so I assume it is the whine of the shears. 



secuono said:


> She tried to help.


Have to check that it washed behind its ears that morning!

Second picture on the top post: "That is a dog in sheep's clothing and it WANTS to play with me!!!"


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## Bruce

Not a bad scene to look out at every day


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## Bruce

You decided she needed to be a (somewhat) long haired dog?


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## Bruce

The ears and nose are on the job!


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## Bruce

I wasn't aware that battery powered fences had less of a hit than wired. I guess if they could put out the same you would need a really big battery for it to not die too fast at night or on non sunny days.


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## Bruce

I looked up my Cyclops Champ (AC). 5 joules output, I've accidentally touched it 3 times and I would NEVER do it on purpose! Owiee!!!!!!!!!!

I see that they have battery versions from 1.5 joules to 12 joules.


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## Mini Horses

My solar units work for my horses, goats, not so much!!  They need a big jolt to believe you mean business.   Trained to a big one they are better with lesser for occasional.  But temptation is there!    😁


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## Bruce

Yep, she doesn't want @secuono to start slipping mentally. She needs the mental exercise of keeping the dog in.


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## Bruce

She quite the fashion plate!


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## Bruce

I'm sorry she's giving you so much trouble. Seems she needs the jail cell level of containment. Just a very BIG cell.


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## Bruce

Probably need a bunch of trail cams to see where she is sneaking out.


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## Bruce

I guess she'll stay cool in her bath tub.


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## Bruce

Do you think the hat will make her embarrassed to be seen in public and thus will stay in the fenced area? 

And why does she not want to be in with those particular sheep?


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## Bruce

Does she have a preference for a different group of sheep?


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## Bruce

It must be your magnetic personality!!!


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## Bruce

She is one determined dog!! Somehow she needs to bond with her sheep so she WANTS to stay with them.
I can see why you are so frustrated, hard to keep a dog in if there is only hotwire and it is really expensive to put up  permanent woven wire fence.


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## Bruce

Yeah those gaps at the bottom are a real pain to deal with. You'll get this figured out!!


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## Bruce

I blew 3 of the .5A fuses on the input side of my charger (it came with 2 spares).  I don't know why they blow, doesn't seem to be related to anything specific. I've had the charger 3 years I think. Never knew it would be hard to find those fuses, none at the hardware store or the auto parts store. Of course Amazon had them.


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## Bruce

She'll get there, still young right?


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## Bruce

We really need an intervention with this dog!!!! Where is Cesar Millan when you need him!??!


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## Mini Horses

She obviously likes water!    😁   

Have you ever considered that she just doesn't really like sheep???  How is she with the horses?   I mean, you may be dealing with something that isn't gonna be easy.  We all have preferences.  Bet she'd be great with fish.


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## Mini Horses

I was just thinking about her animal preferences. Not their need for her protection.

Sounds like she isn't real interested in being an LGD.......   Some aren't.


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## Bruce

secuono said:


> You know the saying, give an inch, they take a mile?


At least she took a bath so she'd be presentable when she picked up up for your walk.

Then she played in the swamp. Might not have smelled so good after that. 



secuono said:


> With me. 😑
> They ALL want to be in the house with me. All the ponies, dogs, cats, most of the sheep...


Maybe you need to move into the barn!


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## Bruce

She's a goofball!


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## BaBaaHMonica

so ok how to train a dog to guard??  Is there a dog school?  

Yeah hooked on this thread now too.  Popcorn even, and a little pop with a bit of extra.


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## Mini Horses

This one may have been an adoptee smuggled into the litter!    🤫 .  

She seriously isn't feeling the traits with which most have been genetically endowed.   IDK.  Beautiful dog but, clearly thinks she's a Labrador.   😁😁


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## Bruce

She looks really innocent out there


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## Bruce

That might slow down the escapes!!

Explain to her that she is an LGD and LGD's are supposed to have a great desire to please their owners. Then explain (like you haven't a million times already??) that leaving the area you put her in does not make you happy.


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## Ridgetop

Where does she go when she escapes?  Since she is a Pyr-Anatolian cross it sounds like she has the full Pyr wandering gene in spite of her Anatolian appearance.  Pyrs are almost impossible to confine if they have that intense wandering gene.  Might be the reason the owner was getting rid of her at 5 months old.  By 5 months a good LGD should be staying with the sheep.

If she comes up to the house and hangs out _on the property_, you could allow her to be an all around the farm guard.  Get another proven LGD for the sheep.  If she leaves the property consistently and runs off I would rehome her and just get another LGD.  She isn't guarding those precious lambs if she is off running around somewhere. 

Life is too short to have to chase after an LGD that won't stay with her sheep!  Count up the hours you have wasted getting her back, the $$ spent in trying to fence her in, and think hard about whether it is worth it. You haven't lost any sheep yet, but t is going to be a long, dry summer and that brings in the predators.

On the other hand, if she is leaving the property and chasing off predators _*from a self determined boundary of her own*_, and you are ok with that, then she may be doing an adequate job.  *BUT remember that the farther out she is working, the more backup she will need in the event of an attack on the flock.  If you have several pastures she needs to cover, you may need to bring in a 3rd dog anyway. *Have you determined where she goes when she escapes?  Is the coyote load so bad that she is leaving the property to chase them off outside the perimeter she has decided is a safety zone for her sheep? _*Pyrs will set their own perimeter and it will change with the predator load.*_

Is she guarding her own perimeter?  or is she just not wanting to work?  You need to determine this before trying to "train" her in a way she is genetically unable to perform.   She might be guarding the sheep like a Pyrenees.


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## Ridgetop

I thought the problem was that she was escaping and wandering away. 

If she stays close to home and you, maybe her temperament is more all around guardian.  Just because an LGD is one of the LGD breeds, their individual guarding techniques differ within a litter.  Some prefer the sheep, some don't.  They might all be excellent guardians in different locations and situations.

Rika and Angel are sheep committed, preferring to be with the flock where they can watch the gully and perimeter fences adjacent to open territory where the coyote and wandering dog threat is greatest.  They _will_ wander up to the house for R & R with us occasionally during the day, or when their "shift" is over.  But until the sheep are put up at night they tend to remain with them.  Bubba is an all around guardian, preferring to remain closer to the house on either side where he can monitor anyone coming up the road.  He still has a view over the front pasture from the patio on one side, while from the other side (driveway) he can over see the barn with lambs.  When we are lambing, he tends to be excessively alert to every sound from the lamb jugs and creep.  But in seconds he can be with any other dog that sounds a warning across the field.

Since you have 2 other LGDs why not let this one be your all around guardian, protecting the house and property while acting as backup to the other guardians who remain with the flocks.  She is quick enough to join them when necessary.  She is also only a year old which means that she is not quite ready to face off to a pack of coyotes on her own.  I don't mean she won't be _*willing*_, I mean that at 1 year old she hasn't got the savvy, size, and fighting experience necessary to go against a pack and come out unscathed. 

It sounds like she is testing every aspect of her possible guarding duties while she makes up her mind where she refers to stay.  Kind of like kids their changing their minds about what they want to be when they grow up!  LOL  

Love of water could be from her Pyr ancestry.  Our big male Pyr used to go out around 5pm in the heat of summer and sit in the large horse trough.  He looked like someone in a hot tub waiting for the waiter to bring him a cool adult beverage!


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## Ridgetop

Well, she _*is*_ a teenager right now so very high energy.  Running and chasing are natural at this age.  Hunting rabbits is a good pastime for her.  With no other dog to play with, watch that she doesn't try to play with lambs.  It can be common behavior at this age, particularly with their favorite BFF lambs.  Bloody ears/legs are a sign that she is trying to play with sheep in her doggy way.  Since the sheep will not turn and bite her like another dog would, she thinks they are enjoying the chasing and nipping game.  This is the type of behavior that starts friendly dogs into chasing and killing sheep.  At first it is a game, later it becomes too much fun for the dogs and they become confirmed sheep killers.  Most LGDs that try this sort of teenage chasing behavior do it around 12 months.  You need to stop this behavior immediately if she starts doing this.  Once you stop the behavior they eventually outgrow it.   It doesn't sound like she is doing this behavior yet.  If she does, put her in a pen with rams or other tough sheep that will not allow her to try to play with them.  Getting butted by adult sheep seems to teach them that this is undesirable behavior.  Having the sheep discipline her behavior is better that you trying to discipline her.

Otherwise, how much time is she spending away from the sheep?  Have you had any losses while she has been with the sheep?  It is possible that while you think she is not guarding, she is still a deterrent in the fields.  Do you bring your sheep and lambs up to night folds?  It makes it easier on the dogs in high predator areas, especially with a young inexperienced dog.  

It is possible that her protective instinct is so strong that she is trying to protect you as well as the sheep.


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## Ridgetop

Teenagers!  She should outgrow it.  Eventually.  

The coyote was probably scoping out the property so see how sincere your LGDs were.  Her barking tells predators that she is there so they don't come in.  That may be all you need.


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## Ridgetop

Chaining up your LGD is not a good solution.  They are in danger of injuries from predators if they don't have complete freedom to move when fighting predators.  Getting tangled in the chain or rope is a big danger too.


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## Mini Horses

I see you have her listed for sale.


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## Simpleterrier

I have a question does the dog run away or does she just fence hop on your property?


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## Bruce

Apparently she stays on the property, just wants to be with @secuono rather than the sheep she is supposed to be protecting.


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## misfitmorgan

What is the point of having her as an LGD if she is chained to things? Why dont you actually train her so she behaves how you want. You can't just drop a dog from a 15ft x 15ft kennel into a pasture and expect her to be a good LGD. You need to find a way to get rid of her energy and wear her out, train out her food aggression, forcing her to spend less time with you is never going to work, train her not to chase things and to be calm around the sheep. Stop ignoring advice from people who have already been down this road and succeeded where you are repeatedly failing.


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## Bruce

secuono said:


> but under the trailer is the winning spot.....


Nice cool ground!


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## Mini Horses

As I recall, you were the one complaining about this dog escaping the barn and fields you wanted her to remain in.  You complained about her chasing the rams.  You felt she was escaping.....you obviously felt this dog was not following your wants.   Now you say she's staying in?

Hopefully someone will give her a home where they appreciate her.  Plus, there are fully vetted, registered animals for what you are asking or very close....and trained to basic commands.   Now, her value is very reduced after her time and experiences there.  A lot of retraining will be needed.  At her age that may be difficult, certainly challenging.  She's lovely to look at.

Maybe she will have you trained before she is sold.  🙃👍😎


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## Kusanar

I see this one has also been butchered. Someone REALLY doesn't take advice well


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## misfitmorgan

Kusanar said:


> I see this one has also been butchered. Someone REALLY doesn't take advice well


Obviously they think they know everything already and just post here so we can be at their beck and call I guess. Say something they dont like and they simply ignore it or become a child and delete all their posts. Don't worry the next time she asks for advice while "not asking for advice" I'm sure she will get little to none. Waste of time.


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## Ridgetop

I still don't understand how the calf foundered on *milk*!  According to her he wasn't eating anything except milk.


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## farmerjan

Too much milk powder, too strong a protein base.... like too much grain for a horse...which would overload their system with both starches and PROTEIN...... which is usually too high a protein diet.... BUT.... those hooves would not have been like that from the short time she had him.... they were like that when they got the calf and they didn't know enough about calves to see it and recognize it.  That is why I was skeptical about the doubling of the lamb milk replacer powder.... 
 We had to be very careful when feeding veal calves.  Too much milk could easily scour them, and it was a balancing act to make sure that they did not get bad feet, like founder symptoms.... I always preferred to feed "real milk" as opposed to powdered milk.... you didn't get the feet problems near as much.... because the real stuff is just "so concentrated".... even feeding jersey milk of 5 % butterfat.... you couldn't over concentrate it....


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## Ridgetop

We always fed straight goat milk and immediately cut it with water if the calf started to scour or even looked a little off.  Cutting the milk with water never did any harm and often kept them from scouring.  If  gave probiotics and electrolytes I did the paste to make sure it went into the calf.  If the calf wouldn't drink,  liquid electrolytes did no good!  By the time we brought in the calves, the goat kids were weaned and the bucks sold so plenty of milk for the calves.  

Fed the milk unpasteurized to the calves in 2 quart calf bottles.  Holstein calves or cross breds - 2 quarts am and 2 quarts pm.  Fresh water in  bucket.  Kept them in calf hutches for a month to make sure they didn't scour.  At one month old out of the calf hutches and into a corral with stemmy hay and the milk.  Never more than 1 gallon per day of milk.  Once in the corral they would jump and buck around with each other - so cute!

Only pasteurized the goat milk for the kids to avoid CAE.  Blood tested for CAE annually but still heat treated the colostrum and pasteurized the milk for the goat kids.  Our family drank it unpasteurized too.  Yummy!


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## Ridgetop

Even our veal calves on only milk never got bad feet.  Lamb powder is much higher protein and fat content.

Poor calf.  But I think those breeders saw her coming and that calf was already sickly.


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## misfitmorgan

Ridgetop said:


> Even our veal calves on only milk never got bad feet.  Lamb powder is much higher protein and fat content.
> 
> Poor calf.  But I think those breeders saw her coming and that calf was already sickly.


I don't know that the breeders did anything per say. According to past posts they have a good reputation which is why those breeders were choose.

I have said since the day it was mentioned that the lamb milk was to rich for cows. I don't think it is true founder either, it is more likely true laminitis.


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## Kusanar

misfitmorgan said:


> I don't think it is true founder either, it is more likely true laminitis.


I'm curious about this statement. In horses, Founder (common term) and Laminitis (medical term) are the same thing and both relate to the inflammation of the lamina in the hoof which causes the heat and pain. If it goes further, those inflamed lamina start to break down causing rotation of the coffin bone (not sure about cows, I know they DO have a similar bone but not sure what it is called in cattle) and the dying tissue releases toxins into the bloodstream. Severe rotation can result in the coffin bone being pressed through the sole of the hoof which is pretty much a death sentence for the animal. 

Do those 2 terms mean something different in other stock or are more commonly used for differing levels of severity?


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## misfitmorgan

Kusanar said:


> I'm curious about this statement. In horses, Founder (common term) and Laminitis (medical term) are the same thing and both relate to the inflammation of the lamina in the hoof which causes the heat and pain. If it goes further, those inflamed lamina start to break down causing rotation of the coffin bone (not sure about cows, I know they DO have a similar bone but not sure what it is called in cattle) and the dying tissue releases toxins into the bloodstream. Severe rotation can result in the coffin bone being pressed through the sole of the hoof which is pretty much a death sentence for the animal.
> 
> Do those 2 terms mean something different in other stock or are more commonly used for differing levels of severity?



They are actually to different things in all livestock including horses, just commonly used as though they are the same. Laminitis is often the sort of first symptom/sign that founder is coming if something doesn't change or treatment isn't gotten, an animal can have laminitis and never have founder as well as never have issues with their hooves again.

Laminitis - Laminitis is an inflammation of the laminar corium of the hoof wall. In general, the term laminitis is used to describe a systemic disease affecting not only the hooves, but also the general condition of the animal. The etiology of the circulatory disturbance is not fully understood and there are some possible explanations often related to nutrition. Due to mechanical stretching of the attachment between the inner and outer laminar structures of the hoof wall, which has been affected by the inflammation (i.e. laminitis), the claw bone can rotate and or sink inside the hoof. Depending on the severity of the laminitis, the mobility of the claw bone inside the capsule and the counter pressure on the sole from hard floors, the sole corium can be contused and secondary lesions of the sole area can develop.

Founder usually refers to a chronic (long-term) condition associated with rotation of the coffin bone, whereas acute laminitis refers to symptoms associated with a sudden initial attack, including pain and inflammation of the laminae. Laminitis can affect one or all feet, but it is most often seen in the front feet concurrently.

Also side note...did you know the term "foundered horse" means the claw bone has come out the bottom of the hoof?


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## Kusanar

misfitmorgan said:


> They are actually to different things in all livestock including horses, just commonly used as though they are the same. Laminitis is often the sort of first symptom/sign that founder is coming if something doesn't change or treatment isn't gotten, an animal can have laminitis and never have founder as well as never have issues with their hooves again.
> 
> Laminitis - Laminitis is an inflammation of the laminar corium of the hoof wall. In general, the term laminitis is used to describe a systemic disease affecting not only the hooves, but also the general condition of the animal. The etiology of the circulatory disturbance is not fully understood and there are some possible explanations often related to nutrition. Due to mechanical stretching of the attachment between the inner and outer laminar structures of the hoof wall, which has been affected by the inflammation (i.e. laminitis), the claw bone can rotate and or sink inside the hoof. Depending on the severity of the laminitis, the mobility of the claw bone inside the capsule and the counter pressure on the sole from hard floors, the sole corium can be contused and secondary lesions of the sole area can develop.
> 
> Founder usually refers to a chronic (long-term) condition associated with rotation of the coffin bone, whereas acute laminitis refers to symptoms associated with a sudden initial attack, including pain and inflammation of the laminae. Laminitis can affect one or all feet, but it is most often seen in the front feet concurrently.
> 
> Also side note...did you know the term "foundered horse" means the claw bone has come out the bottom of the hoof?


Ok, so all foundered horses have laminitis but not all horses that have laminitis will progress to foundering. Got it.


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## farmerjan

Yes, misfit is right.... the terms are used interchangeably, but laminitis can be controlled if caught early and steps taken.  It is never "cured"... Founder is basically a death sentence.  But for most cases, when it is caught it is already founder, it is pretty much too late for the animal to still be productive, or in the case of horses, to be able to be ridden.  Alot of dairy cattle will get laminitis if the feed ration is too "hot"  and it is exacerbated by being on concrete... I am as bad as most by using the terms interchangeably.... sadly, when it happens at such an early age as that calf seems to have happened, he will be subject to problems for the rest of his life.  And especially if the person taking care of him is not aware enough to know how to lessen the effects through proper feed.  I have only seen hooves that bad on a cow once before, and it was older than this calf.  Most often in cattle it is seen on one foot more than on both and usually is too much growth on one of the toes... needing constant trimming and being more susceptible to sore feet,  and other problems. Ripples in the hoof/toe is common in cattle that have had previous problems....


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## Ridgetop

So why would this young calf get laminitis so quickly after purchase?  She was definitely overfeeding the calf when she started tubing it (when she said the milk was bubbling back out of the mouth around the tube!) and also putting it on too a rich sheep replacer was bad.  But if the breeders were bottle feeding lamb replacer it should have been used to the richer formula, right?  But remember she said that the calf didn't want to stand up and just lay down all the time?  That could have been the laminitis already affecting the hooves and causing it pain.  Not to mention when she said she thought he was "cudding" (but had not been eating anything) he was possibly grinding his teeth in pain like they do.  No use worrying about it now.  

Thanks to misfitmorgan and farmerjan for the good explanation of the difference between laminitis and founder.  I thought they were the same thing too.


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## misfitmorgan

Ridgetop said:


> So why would this young calf get laminitis so quickly after purchase?  She was definitely overfeeding the calf when she started tubing it (when she said the milk was bubbling back out of the mouth around the tube!) and also putting it on too a rich sheep replacer was bad.  But if the breeders were bottle feeding lamb replacer it should have been used to the richer formula, right?  But remember she said that the calf didn't want to stand up and just lay down all the time?  That could have been the laminitis already affecting the hooves and causing it pain.  Not to mention when she said she thought he was "cudding" (but had not been eating anything) he was possibly grinding his teeth in pain like they do.  No use worrying about it now.
> 
> Thanks to misfitmorgan and farmerjan for the good explanation of the difference between laminitis and founder.  I thought they were the same thing too.



The calf could have arrived with the beginnings of laminitis, as with most prey animals they won't show any/many signs until it gets pretty bad from what my research says. It's also possible that they were using lamb replacer and mixing down the strength, or that the calf was with its mom until it got older and was trained to a bottle. They were feeding the calf a smaller amount of the milk replacer on a daily basis as well, even if the calf was used to the richer milk feeding it double or more and literally force feeding it with a tube it wouldnt have mattered. As I mentioned awhile back a normal size bottle calf is only fed 4 quarts of milk replacer a day, I wouldnt think a mini would need as much but I literally have zero experience with minis so really not sure there. Hopefully the calf is recovering and she learned what not to do with any future calves. Even with people who have been raising calves for 30yrs still lose 3% on a herd that is dam raised and more on calves that are bottle raised, calves are difficult. You can do everything "right" and they can still die.


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## Ridgetop

Bottle calves can be tricky.  We only lost 2 in 12 calves raised to selling age at 2-3 months.  But one summer there was an outbreak of E. coli and we lost two sets of 3 calves one after the other.  I usually had good results with calves, as soon as they would stop nursing I cut their milk with water, gave paste electrolytes and probiotics which pulled them through.   Never had to tube any calves.  But that summer after losing 2 sets of calves back to back, we stopped bringing in calves, bleached the area, and the calf hutches.  The following years no problem with raising our newborn Holstein calves again.

We never had any problems with hooves.  We used straight unpasteurized goats milk, no calf replacer, 2 quarts am, 2 quarts pm, with leftover goat hay.  The Fair veal calves were a little trickier since we had to keep them on increasing amounts of milk, no hay or grain.  At 3 months they were drinking up to 3 gallons a day in calf bottles, never used buckets.


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